# Economics of Touring Metal Bands



## ExMachina (Dec 17, 2022)

I keep seeing articles about bands losing money on tour [1]. Curious if anyone has insight or first hand experience. Are venues and merch sales not even offsetting gas food and hotel costs?


1. https://www.loudersound.com/feature...s-the-entire-future-of-live-music-in-jeopardy


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## warhead (Dec 22, 2022)

And the mentioned loss of 20 000 US Dollars isn't even including the flight expenses......


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## ArtDecade (Dec 22, 2022)

Every one on this site loves metal and I say this with all due respect.... You have a better chance of hitting the lottery while getting struck by lightning than you do making money touring in a modern metal band. If you play pop music, your chances of success go from 0.0009% to 0.004%.


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## ExMachina (Dec 22, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Every one on this site loves metal and I say this with all due respect.... You have a better chance of hitting the lottery while getting struck by lightning than you do making money touring in a modern metal band. If you play pop music, your chances of success go from 0.0009% to 0.004%.


I mean, I'm not trying to "make it", its just disappointing that artists on my favorite genres can really sustain themselves.


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## budda (Dec 22, 2022)

Are we talking DIY, international, arena…?


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## ArtDecade (Dec 22, 2022)

ExMachina said:


> I mean, I'm not trying to "make it", its just disappointing that artists on my favorite genres can really sustain themselves.


Back in the 80s, you could make money in metal, but then every one stopped teasing their hair, started wearing flannel, and were singing about how sad they were instead. The train went off the rails and we never recovered. Thanks, Seattle. You suck.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Dec 22, 2022)

I don't know about touring metal bands, but in a previous job we'd do 2 week visits to see customers which were basically like a tour and would regularly spend that sort of money on car rental, nice hotels, food not to mention flights which the company sent us business class on. We were effectively spending the company's money so we weren't careful and so on, but yes, it can easily mount up very quickly.

I work for a different company now and most of the time I work from home but when I visit the site I'm affiliated with I stay at a nice B&B down the road from where I'm headed, but even that can be well over £100 a night just in a country pub. a tank of fuel can be £80 here so...

To do that for 6 weeks 20K is a loss of only 500 a day for the whole band, it looks like the projected to offset the daily costs with merch and just didn't sell enough. 

I hate to say it but maybe yes, the days of smaller bands touring are over unless they literally can do it as a loss leader to promote new music...?


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## ExMachina (Dec 22, 2022)

So are the days of these smaller bands touring going to just be over? We're going to be left with singles from YouTubers...


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## buriedoutback (Dec 22, 2022)

The days of small bands touring aren't over.
You just have to go into knowing that:
-you still need to have a full time job, that will somehow let you take random, sometimes peak time off... or be able to get another job afterwards.
-you will lose money. ime if you get gas money, you're lucky. if you get a floor to lie on, you're very lucky. if you get food, you're super lucky.
-there are people out there (who probably aren't musicians) that believe that if you aren't starving, sleeping on the floor, and partying all night every night, that you're not really touring.
-people will rip you off at venues. people will try to steal your gear and/or trailer. people don't have money for merch.
-etc etc etc

There are some vids on youtube that highlight this very well. Adam Neely (jazz) has a great video on this.
I'm over 40, so a while ago I accepted that 'I' won't make any money playing metal, and will lose money if I go on tour.
In my case, I can afford to take a loss for my fun hobby.

It sucks, and there are bands that can do it, and if I was 20 again, I'd fucking givver a shot.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Dec 22, 2022)

I recently watched an interview with a guy in a band who toured around 2007 and he was saying the same thing. That he doesn't know how small bands do it nowadays or if they can do it because they're independently rich. Really sad. We don't even have local shows in my town anymore, and we used to have them.



buriedoutback said:


> -you still need to have a full time job, that will somehow let you take random, sometimes peak time off... or be able to get another job afterwards.


Lol yeah, if you work unqualified jobs (or any job at all?) good luck telling your empioyer that you're leaving to tour with your band 

Every workplace I've been in pretty much has given me the impression that if you did that you would be 100% fired. What kind of job would allow that? Why do they even need you working there if they let you leave for a tour, when they can easily get someone else who's not in a touring band? Has to be some crazy specialization or a family business.


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## budda (Dec 22, 2022)

Most touring people work in bars and the arts. I toured 3 months of the year working full time in a warehouse.


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## warhead (Dec 23, 2022)

The band in question is also mentioning:"the possibility of bands becoming more of a tourist thing: people go to where the bands are". It might happen(to a certain extent) if it would be a concert of a HUGE band in question...but to think people would fly/pay accommodation to attend a concert of a band that is so small they tour in a van - come on, let's be real.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 24, 2022)

Jason Richardson said in a podcast that you will lose a lot of money trying to tour Europe for the first time and for most bands they don’t start making money until their third European tour. With the cost of everything I can’t imagine how expensive it is to tour now.

Nightwish played a gig in Ireland recently and they cancelled the two support acts a week beforehand to cut costs.

That said there are so many gigs being announced here that booking agents have had to start using theatres and comedy venues because every music venue is booked out. Unsustainable touring costs yet there’s more bands touring than ever doesn’t ad up.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Dec 24, 2022)

warhead said:


> The band in question is also mentioning:"the possibility of bands becoming more of a tourist thing: people go to where the bands are". It might happen(to a certain extent) if it would be a concert of a HUGE band in question...but to think people would fly/pay accommodation to attend a concert of a band that is so small they tour in a van - come on, let's be real.



Last year I discovered a band called It Dies Today, they became one of my favourite bands but they "retired" a long time ago and I thought I would never see them live. Until just a couple of days ago when they said they would be playing Furnace Fest 2023. I seriously considered going from Spain but then I saw that only the plane tickets cost around 1200€. If it was way cheaper I would definetly go and they weren't a huge band, so it's not such a crazy idea...


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## bostjan (Dec 24, 2022)

I've been saying this for 5+ years and more than half the people here kept telling me I was full of it.

I have done only a couple tours, but the difference between 2005 and 2015 playing the same style of music was a crazy contrast. In 2005, we lost money compared to what we would have made staying at our day jobs. In 2015, with a band that was more successful, we lost money period. Not $20k, because we were frugal, but enough that I'd never do it again.


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## sirbuh (Dec 24, 2022)

budda said:


> Most touring people work in bars and the arts. I toured 3 months of the year working full time in a warehouse.


As anyone that read Metal Maniacs in the 90s knows warehouse worker, delivery driver, and jobs that can be put on hold very common for the aspiring metal musician.


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## budda (Dec 24, 2022)

sirbuh said:


> As anyone that read Metal Maniacs in the 90s knows warehouse worker, delivery driver, and jobs that can be put on hold very common for the aspiring metal musician.


Didnt hurt I did 50-60 hour weeks when I wasnt on the road. 

Any band that can stay in a hotel every night has “made it” as far as Im concerned. If we did a 3 week run we stayed maybe 2 nights in a hotel. Van, friends or people we felt we could trust were the usual accommodations.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 24, 2022)

Dentist and Lawyer are great professions as well especially if you play blues with the boomer bends. Plus, you get a PRS and a Dumble clone every year - just because.


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## ShredmasterD (Dec 24, 2022)

bands need to form guilds ( not unions) like craftsmen in the days of yore and have an enforcement arrn like the Templars to keep venues and promoters in line by locking out their access to talent. divided we fall. e pluribus unum


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## ShredmasterD (Dec 24, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Dentist and Lawyer are great professions as well especially if you play blues with the boomer bends. Plus, you get a PRS and a Dumble clone every year - just because.


don't forget the Harley Davidson for weekends and the BMW or Tesla for weekdays


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## ArtDecade (Dec 24, 2022)

ShredmasterD said:


> bands need to form guilds ( not unions) like craftsmen in the days of yore and have an enforcement arrn like the Templars to keep venues and promoters in line by locking out their access to talent. divided we fall. e pluribus unum


Metallica starts a line of Metallica swords.


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## ShredmasterD (Dec 24, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Metallica starts a line of Metallica swords.


and Metallica branded methril for the brawls sure to ensue


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## warhead (Dec 24, 2022)

AwakenTheSkies said:


> Last year I discovered a band called It Dies Today, they became one of my favourite bands but they "retired" a long time ago and I thought I would never see them live. Until just a couple of days ago when they said they would be playing Furnace Fest 2023. I seriously considered going from Spain but then I saw that only the plane tickets cost around 1200€. If it was way cheaper I would definetly go and they weren't a huge band, so it's not such a crazy idea...


I really wish I was wrong. But the question would be, how many times would you do a thing like that, and for how many bands? And still, you're mentioning a festival, not a home town gig of a small band. That is a totally different thing, off course people travel for festivals.


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## budda (Dec 24, 2022)

Short version: expect $20-$100 per show for the whole band. Expect to pay $50+ day in fuel (probably $80 now?) for travel. All band costs out of band members pockets including printing merch and music. Expect to spend way more than you make as a band and do it because you love making and performing music. It is an expense.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 24, 2022)

It's like any hobby. You lose money unless you're damn good or in the right place at the right time, often both.


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## sleewell (Dec 24, 2022)

When gas was .75 cents a gallon and rent was 1/4 what is now and people make about the same its a shock they used to have more disposable income to spend at concerts.

Heck even just basics like milk, eggs, and bread are like 4x as expensive as they were 2 years ago. 

Record labels used to help bands tour but streaming put a huge dent in album sales so that isnt the same as it was either.


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## budda (Dec 24, 2022)

Record labels used to put money up front to be paid back. Smart band managers used that to tour. Labels are there to make money, not always actually help bands. Cant say how it looked in 2022 but i know established bands cancelled tours.


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## McDefLau (Dec 25, 2022)

If I understand their story correctly they were touring last summer in Europe. To me it sounds like a lot of bad planning (they were TOLD hotels cost 60 euro a night, didn`t check or book beforehand apparantly) and a lot of bad luck. All the large metal bands were on tour here this summer, people went to see them and didn`t care much for the smaller bands. Gas prices were exploding due to the war in Ukraine, you could see that coming. Hotels were also overbooked because everyone had the chance to go on vacation after the pandemic and the cheaper ones always sell out faster. 
All in all, the band expected too much i think...


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## Lozek (Dec 26, 2022)

The other thing to understand is that all the peripheral related businesses that suffered during Covid are now also trying to recover. A tour bus that used to cost €20,000 for three weeks now costs €35000, and you'll be lucky if you can find one because so many companys went out of business/all the re-scheduled tour dates have them booked out. The same goes for lighting hire, audio hire, lots of crew re-trained when they couldn't work and have found the more stable lifestyle to be better for them. 

Some countries are also finding that customers are reluctant to come back to live music, meaning even more un-predictability with recouping up-front costs.


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## wheresthefbomb (Dec 26, 2022)

something about BTBAM eating ramen noodles

and that was pre-covid

it's all about planning and expectations, Steve Albini does a pretty good common sense breakdown of how to tour and not lose your entire ass as a smaller band. mostly just entails planning where you're playing, how they're paying, and where you're staying. this is likewise pre-covid wisdom, but the basics still apply. it's not all that different from figuring out how you're going to pay all the bills next month.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 27, 2022)

OK, but the band in the article sounds like they set out to lose money. They were getting hotels and renting shit on a $200/night guarantee? That's just bad business. That's what you do if you're touring the closest three states to home and crashing on opener's floors and shit, not fly to Europe and go out on the road for six weeks. The thing is, bands that nobody has heard of EXPECT to lose money when they go out on tours early in the band's existence and they plan the tour with that in mind. It is a lot harder to make money playing music live, especially as a band in a niche of a niche, but if you're realistic with yourself you can make it work. The band from the article did not set out with realistic expectations. Plan your stops as if you don't expect to sell any merch, plan your food and lodging as if you expect not to get all your guarantees.


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## ramses (Dec 27, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> OK, but the band in the article sounds like they set out to lose money. They were getting hotels and renting shit on a $200/night guarantee? That's just bad business. That's what you do if you're touring the closest three states to home and crashing on opener's floors and shit, not fly to Europe and go out on the road for six weeks. The thing is, bands that nobody has heard of EXPECT to lose money when they go out on tours early in the band's existence and they plan the tour with that in mind. It is a lot harder to make money playing music live, especially as a band in a niche of a niche, but if you're realistic with yourself you can make it work. The band from the article did not set out with realistic expectations. Plan your stops as if you don't expect to sell any merch, plan your food and lodging as if you expect not to get all your guarantees.



It sounds like they did not have a tour manager. Of course, that may have been an expense that they could not afford.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 27, 2022)

ramses said:


> It sounds like they did not have a tour manager. Of course, that may have been an expense that they could not afford.


Most bands nobody has ever heard of don't have ae tour manager.


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## McDefLau (Dec 27, 2022)

All the more reason to do more planning yourself. Thirty years ago not knowing things was a valid excuse, nowadays with internet it`s just lack of effort i would say. (of course combined with some bad luck)


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## bostjan (Dec 27, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's like any hobby. You lose money unless you're damn good or in the right place at the right time, often both.


This is true, but there is a greater point to my gripe.

It used to be not only possible, but fairly common for independent bands to turn a profit from touring. It is not only no longer commonplace, but it extremely rare nowadays.

There are also plenty of instances from both recent history and from decades ago, of artists who toured tirelessly and were very popular, but never made any money. So, it's more about getting screwed, and about how virtually every artist is getting screwed now by a larger margin than ever before in our lifetimes.

I never made being a musician my career orientation, but, back in the late 90's and early 2000's, I made more money from doing music than I made waiting tables or working at pawn shops or working in science labs. Even in the mid-2000's, I got a gig playing in a house band at a dive bar, taking home $150/night. Going into the 2008 financial crisis, gigs dried up. Decent paying gigs shifted from bars to private parties in the 2010's, venues for original music often just ceased to exist, and cops really started cracking down on private parties. Leading up to covid, cops started cracking down on bars for having bands, too, and I watched as the people whose bands are members of the Chamber of Commerce started gobbling up all of the few remaining gigs. Covid restrictions pretty much slaughtered live music, and now big name artists are charging $500 for nosebleed seats for their shows. I think this is jsut a sign that the entire music industry from the big bands and stadiums all the way down to garage bands and private parties is in a death spiral.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 27, 2022)

bostjan said:


> This is true, but there is a greater point to my gripe.
> 
> It used to be not only possible, but fairly common for independent bands to turn a profit from touring. It is not only no longer commonplace, but it extremely rare nowadays.
> 
> ...



The product just isn't worth what it once was, and there's an endless stream of copycat acts willing to race to the bottom for what's left.


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## ElRay (Dec 29, 2022)

sirbuh said:


> As anyone that read Metal Maniacs in the 90s knows warehouse worker, delivery driver, and jobs that can be put on hold very common for the aspiring metal musician.


That's hits on the solution -- Just be a long-haul trucker and have a solo act. Then your bookings can coincide with the DOT-required rest stops.


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## AMOS (Dec 29, 2022)

If you're from Sweden or Finland you at least have a decent local market.


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## jonsick (Dec 29, 2022)

I said this was going to be where music ended up about ten years ago. As one here said, a bunch of YouTubers making singles. Yes, that is exactly what you're going to have left. Well, that and those making a career using Daddy's money or manufactured "metal" acts conjured up by 50 year olds who study markets and formulas.

We are in a time where the best you can hope for in terms of making it is to get so far and then figure out that you are no longer able to afford to exist. There are opportunities, such as a sold out tour, but to seize those opportunities it will cost you so much despite the sold-out shows that you will be coming home and trying to figure out how to pay off your huge debts or consider filing for bankruptcy. I can instantly think of two bands I know personally who got to exactly that point. And of course once you realise the dream is impossible, the impetus to carry on dissolves like butter in a hot pan. 

I would correct myself though; that time started about 8 years ago. Nowadays? It's even harder.

Everyone is recovering from the pandemic. And given music as a whole has been living on borrowed time in terms of existing for many years, well two decades really, the pandemic has only served to kick that forward a little. And no, there will be no recovery.

And whose fault is it? Is it the greedy labels? Is it the greedy promoters? Is it the greedy XYZ? Well, yes they do have parts to play, but ultimately I blame the fans. When fans decided music was free and hit the napsters and limewires of the world, eventually relenting and paying a totally third party company (Spotify) what they should be paying for albums and considering themselves in the clear, sorry they are to blame. 

I'm not blameless. I embraced the napster lifestyle for a time. And no, it wasn't OK when I did, but I learned very quickly what a rubbish deal I was getting from scamming bands out of their product. I returned pretty quickly to buying CDs and records (I never left records, their resurgence is just a thing that happened from my perspective). 

The fact is, the fans have been the biggest change in music. They ripped the floor out from under the whole thing. The days of Earache taking a random chance on some guy in his basement producing grimey sludgy electronica and calling himself Ultraviolence or Godflesh? Gone. Zip. Outta here.

The chance on there being another most dangerous band in the world a-la Guns N Roses, or universally hated Marilyn Manson'esque figure, or a brutally relentless first release a-la Slipknot's self titled? Thing of the past. Coming up, paying your dues, getting a label to support a release, goneski! 

The only people that have half a hope of making it are artists that built some semblance of a brand back when physical media still sold. Behemoth is a great example. Back when I first saw them sometime in the 1990s, they had basic equipment, I saw Nergal himself putting his own amplifier head on the Marshalls they were presumably borrowing from Deicide (headliner). But in these times of labels essentially working with already established brands, that's pretty much the only reason they have the stage production and investment required to do so. They were an established brand, thus pump money in and grow what you have. 

If you want to keep doing this and make money at it, form a cover band. Really it's the only way. Theme it if you want to, there are Linkin Park, Nirvana and Pantera cover bands I've seen recently who do a great bang up job and ultimately do what the venues want them to do which is to get people through the door and spending money on the bar.

So yep. Singles from youtuber brickwalled to shit and £300 Def Leppard tickets is the future of metal music. Enjoy, it's what we as fans have paid for!


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## ExMachina (Dec 29, 2022)

Ive heard some stories of venues trying to take a cut of merch sales, that's absolutely heinous if true. Outside of the poor decision making/planning and economic climate, if the musicians are getting hosed by venues that's tragic.


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## budda (Dec 29, 2022)

ExMachina said:


> Ive heard some stories of venues trying to take a cut of merch sales, that's absolutely heinous if true. Outside of the poor decision making/planning and economic climate, if the musicians are getting hosed by venues that's tragic.


Oh some venues 100% do this.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 29, 2022)

ExMachina said:


> Ive heard some stories of venues trying to take a cut of merch sales, that's absolutely heinous if true. Outside of the poor decision making/planning and economic climate, if the musicians are getting hosed by venues that's tragic.



That's been going on forever. When I was gigging in the 90's venues would charge you for "retail space." 

Always buy merch in cash, and hide that shit.


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## jonsick (Dec 29, 2022)

ExMachina said:


> Ive heard some stories of venues trying to take a cut of merch sales, that's absolutely heinous if true. Outside of the poor decision making/planning and economic climate, if the musicians are getting hosed by venues that's tragic.


They are indeed. In fact most of them are.

I haven't come up against venues for "local" bands doing it yet but I would say it's a matter of time!


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## jonsick (Dec 29, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's been going on forever. When I was gigging in the 90's venues would charge you for "retail space."
> 
> Always buy merch in cash, and hide that shit.


It is not the same as when it was in the 1990s. We got charged maybe £40 or so. Now it's a very hefty percentage with a minimum whether you sell or not.

Go and read Lord Amharin's comments (Dark Funeral) of their recent escapades of having to owe the venue more than their guarantee. They ended up paying the venue to play in the end.

The last "figure" I was told was £7500, or 40% whichever the greater for a venue in London.


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## bostjan (Dec 29, 2022)

ElRay said:


> That's hits on the solution -- Just be a long-haul trucker and have a solo act. Then your bookings can coincide with the DOT-required rest stops.


That way you can lose money on your band *and* lose money on your truck simultaneously!


ExMachina said:


> Ive heard some stories of venues trying to take a cut of merch sales, that's absolutely heinous if true. Outside of the poor decision making/planning and economic climate, if the musicians are getting hosed by venues that's tragic.


So many people in other threads here, when the topic came up in the past, had said that bands make a killing on merch sales. I said then and I double down now that merch sales are not the cash cow most people think it is. Most fans won't pay more than $20 for a shirt that costs you $15 to have printed, then you have to deal with hauling it around, staffing the merch stand, the venue taking a cut, venmo taking a cut, etc. Almost everybody also does giveaways - either toss someone a shirt or bring stickers or something to pass out for free, and there's no accounting reason to not figure that into your bottom line for profitability. By the time you factor in all of this, you are only making pennies, if not losing money.


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## Emperoff (Dec 29, 2022)

I'm a bit torn on this topic, and I don't really know who to blame anymore 

Speaking from the perspective of my area, literally *no one* goes to low-tier/unknown band shows. Not even at 5€/ticket. or less. People just don't care about anything they don't previously know, so the culture of enjoying live music just for the sake of it (and discovering new stuff) is pretty much lost.

This same people will happily pay those 5€ for tribute bands, though. So they can enjoy with a drink the music they already like. And they are perfectly fine spending 150€ to see Iron Maiden (in case you thought inflation was to blame).

That in turn makes pubs and venues not wanting to book amateur bands. Because they understand that musicians have to get paid, but they know they will lose money, so they just don't accept bands that are not tribute bands. You also have the other option, which is renting the venue and pray to the old gods enough people come to your show to recover the expense.

So... who's to blame? Thankfully my two bands are sort-of-cover-bands, which means I actually make money out of music. But I can only think of a few bands that can truly _*make a living* _playing metal in my country.


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## Screamingdaisy (Dec 29, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Speaking from the perspective of my area, literally *no one* goes to low-tier/unknown band shows. Not even at 5€/ticket. or less. People just don't care about anything they don't previously know, so the culture of enjoying live music just for the sake of it (and discovering new stuff) is pretty much lost.



The wierdest thing I've seen was in my last city. 

Opener - 30 people arrive, 25 people leave (were only there to see the opener?)
1st Act - 50 people arrive, 40 people leave (were only there to see the 1st act)
2nd Act - 70 people arrive, 60 people leave (blaa, blaa, blaa)
Headliner - 100 people arrive.

It was weird. The venue was basically changing out fans between sets, and there was very little carry over from band to band, even though they were all various forms of metal. Not much drinking, no one really getting shit faced (ie, poor bar sales). 

If "fans" don't support the venues the venues can't support the bands. They make more money with a DJ, and some of these venues only exist because the guys owning/running them are musicians themselves and willing to take the hit for live music.


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## bostjan (Dec 29, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I'm a bit torn on this topic, and I don't really know who to blame anymore
> 
> Speaking from the perspective of my area, literally *no one* goes to low-tier/unknown band shows. Not even at 5€/ticket. or less. People just don't care about anything they don't previously know, so the culture of enjoying live music just for the sake of it (and discovering new stuff) is pretty much lost.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I don't think making a living off of playing original metal music was ever really an option for anyone unless you were extremely lucky. But at least it used to be an option to teach guitar lessons or work at GC or whatever (probably both) and gig in the evenings and get it to all come together.

But the price of lessons hasn't kept up with inflation, guitar sales have all but completely moved online, and gigs are a net negative income option, so...

And who's to blame? That's an interesting question but also kind of pointless, since this is nothing that we can change. And I really don't think file sharing has really anything to do with the bottom line of any small-time local band, because no one pirates their music anyway. I think it's mostly down to people not caring in general. IDK, there's this pervasive attitude of sort of glee watching people fail nowadays and it has crept into everything, but it hit music especially hard. I think it's about the lump sum - back when music was cool, there were music videos on television, the radio played music, there were tons of local venues that hosted local bands, people talked about their favourite music. Now - no one cares about television, but even so, the only videos are the ones from when music videos were "cool;" no one cares about radio, but there is more talking on radio than ever before and interest in music is more focused on older music from when it was "cool;" there are far fewer venues, and the ones that exist are far more likely to try to scam money out of a struggling band than to try to help them out; music is available online and super easy to access, but most young people prefer to listen to podcasts, or do anything other than listen to music.

The only way it will change is if people start actually giving a shit about music again, and no one who doesn't has really any reason to ever want to get interested in it. I guess I never thought I'd see music die this way - I figured some new music style might supplant rock and roll, but not this general apathy. But, as long as music offers no value proposition to people, musicians won't be valued.



Screamingdaisy said:


> The wierdest thing I've seen was in my last city.
> 
> Opener - 30 people arrive, 25 people leave (were only there to see the opener?)
> 1st Act - 50 people arrive, 40 people leave (were only there to see the 1st act)
> ...



Local shows have been like that here in Northern New England for ages. I've been to two-day shows with more than a dozen bands playing at the same venue and the only familiar faces I saw in the audience amongst the different bands were the promoters and venue staff. It was crazy that the official headcount was over a thousand when there were never more than 150 there at the same time.

And I totally just don't get it. You paid the $50 for the ticket... why not at least get there 30 minutes early and stay 35 minute late to check out a couple more bands that, IDK, maybe you might like...?


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## Emperoff (Dec 29, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Yeah, I don't think making a living off of playing original metal music was ever really an option for anyone unless you were extremely lucky. But at least it used to be an option to teach guitar lessons or work at GC or whatever (probably both) and gig in the evenings and get it to all come together.
> 
> But the price of lessons hasn't kept up with inflation, guitar sales have all but completely moved online, and gigs are a net negative income option, so...
> 
> ...



If I had to blame anyone, it would be fans themselves. I know metal musicians that won't stop complaining about how "the scene" dies because people don't support it, yet I NEVER see them on other local band's gigs. It's just this hypocrisy of complaining about how the bands you like don't make it big, but you don't contribute to "the scene" you seem to love so much. And I'm not talking about jazz or folk gigs here.

I've seen this repeating over and over for the last 15 years and I'm just glad I'm not in the metal touring circle anymore. Of course there is a lot more to it, but as you say there is nothing we can do to change the "corporate" side of things. I just wish people fucking learned to be conscious about live music, or we will lose it for good eventually.


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## bostjan (Dec 29, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> If I had to blame anyone, it would be fans themselves. I know metal musicians that won't stop complaining about how "the scene" dies because people don't support it, yet I NEVER see them on other local band's gigs. It's just this hypocrisy of complaining about how the bands you like don't make it big, but you don't contribute to "the scene" you seem to love so much. And I'm not talking about jazz or folk gigs here.
> 
> I've seen this repeating over and over for the last 15 years and I'm just glad I'm not in the metal touring circle anymore. Of course there is a lot more to it, but as you say there is nothing we can do to change the "corporate" side of things. I just wish people fucking learned to be conscious about live music, or we will lose it for good eventually.


That last sentence might be a problematic ultimatum, though. I get the strong feeling that a fairly large proportion, maybe even a majority, of young people today, don't care. And the older folks who are more likely to care are far less likely to do anything about it.

What you see, as much as it frustrates me, is natural. The music fanatics of the 2000's and before are now dads with kids and 9-5 (understood to be 8-6) jobs, so they aren't going to be going out to see a show on a Thursday night, even if it is their favourite act in the whole wide world. And, at least out of the ones I know personally, young adults 18-28 tend to fall into three categories: the ones who hate music, the ones who like only old music, and the ones who are generally apathetic toward the entire thing. Excluding musicians, and maybe their s/o's...

That and the economy keeps getting tighter little by little, so people are less interested in spending money on entertainment.

And also smartphones/social media, where everyone can socialize without having to gather anyplace in particular. There's no use going to a show to socialize or whatever, since you are already doing it from your own toilet. 

Oh, and as weed gets more legal, people who went to concerts to get pot have one less reason to go to concerts...


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## ElRay (Dec 29, 2022)

bostjan said:


> And also smartphones/social media, where everyone can socialize without having to gather anyplace in particular. There's no use going to a show to socialize or whatever, since you are already doing it from your own toilet.


I'd expand this to included streaming in general. 

Don't know the two other bands on the bill? Find their music online, listen to two or three, less than 10-sec snipettes of two songs, go Meh, show-up at the last second to see "your band" and then leave before the last song is over, to beat traffic out of the parking lot.


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## AwakenTheSkies (Dec 29, 2022)

bostjan said:


> And also smartphones/social media, where everyone can socialize without having to gather anyplace in particular. There's no use going to a show to socialize or whatever, since you are already doing it from your own toilet.


Yeah..."socialize"


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## jonsick (Dec 29, 2022)

I still blame the fans. Artists can start the revolution by removing their music from streaming services. When all they have left is washed out shite that they pay £8 a month for, the real fans will own the thing that brings them the most pleasure physically.

It will become a culture of if you want to see a band, you will have to go to them. Even small local in-country tours are just not viable anymore, let alone me hopping on a train to France.

It's a different time. Until the fans really have to smell the glove, they won't change their entitled ways. And if they don't, they will lose it forever.

But whenever anyone does lament the old days, the loss of good metal music on MTV, or a good new band come out that they can really sink their teeth into instead of "that band" they liked "when they were into metal" and grew out of it, all the fake shit, I remind them that if they're paying £8 a month to stream or still ripping off bands on torrent sites, then it is their fault. They will gripe and complain and claim to have bought several t-shirts, it doesn't matter. Their fault collectively. 

If you don't put your money where your mouth is, who gives a good god damn what comes out of it! If you start buying music from bands properly whose vibe you get and want to survive, then you will create the market and those grassroots labels will pop up again. Leave the mainstream bullet for my valentine rubbish for the pretenders who will regail stories of that time when they were into metal. 

There is a reason Earache went soft roque.


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## Boofchuck (Dec 29, 2022)

Well, I feel my situation is fairly unique. But my band (Source) is a fully independent, national touring band. Lately, our tours have finally been profitable/breaking even for the first time. Because we're independent, we share our profits with no-one. But we have absolutely no support either. ALL of our equipment, including our touring van was purchased by and for us. It has taken nearly a decade of hard work for this band to get to where it is. Including spending a lot of money previously for buy ons, labels, production etc... I'm effectively a private contractor for the band and I currently get paid just for gigs. One of our other members fronts the majority of costs, so he gets the majority of pay.

Our up front costs have been astronomical, but as things currently stand, the freedom and integrity afforded to us by being fully independent is more valuable than anything else. We're like the biggest little band. A label could help us grow, but they'd have to offer a hell of a lot for us to even consider it. The band is becoming a business/label of it's own because we're so fucking good at what we do we now charge for other services for other bands.

The majority of our profits come from merch sales, because we have REALLY GOOD MERCH. But we still front the cost of all the merch. And since Covid, our supppliers have nearly doubled the material cost of merch. So our profit margins have shrinked because we don't want to raise our prices too much. 

I was fortunate enough to join this band a year ago, after much of the work was already done. And while I get paid for tour and make more than I thought I ever would, the opportunity cost of tour compared to my day job is still a loss.

It's not surprising to me at all that touring is unsustainable for most small acts.


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## Screamingdaisy (Dec 29, 2022)

bostjan said:


> That last sentence might be a problematic ultimatum, though. I get the strong feeling that a fairly large proportion, maybe even a majority, of young people today, don't care. And the older folks who are more likely to care are far less likely to do anything about it.
> 
> What you see, as much as it frustrates me, is natural. The music fanatics of the 2000's and before are now dads with kids and 9-5 (understood to be 8-6) jobs, so they aren't going to be going out to see a show on a Thursday night, even if it is their favourite act in the whole wide world. And, at least out of the ones I know personally, young adults 18-28 tend to fall into three categories: the ones who hate music, the ones who like only old music, and the ones who are generally apathetic toward the entire thing. Excluding musicians, and maybe their s/o's...
> 
> ...



The people that work for me go home and drink while gaming and socializing on Discord. Currently, they've set up their own Valheim server and play with each other while getting drunk.

They don't get together because they live in different parts of town, and gaming rigs aren't exactly portable.

I went out to the bar with a couple to check out a local Celtic rock band. The show was awesome, but I'm convinced they're allergic to women.


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## Screamingdaisy (Dec 29, 2022)

Boofchuck said:


> Well, I feel my situation is fairly unique. But my band (Source) is a fully independent, national touring band. Lately, our tours have finally been profitable/breaking even for the first time. Because we're independent, we share our profits with no-one. But we have absolutely no support either. ALL of our equipment, including our touring van was purchased by and for us. It has taken nearly a decade of hard work for this band to get to where it is. Including spending a lot of money previously for buy ons, labels, production etc... I'm effectively a private contractor for the band and I currently get paid just for gigs. One of our other members fronts the majority of costs, so he gets the majority of pay.
> 
> Our up front costs have been astronomical, but as things currently stand, the freedom and integrity afforded to us by being fully independent is more valuable than anything else. We're like the biggest little band. A label could help us grow, but they'd have to offer a hell of a lot for us to even consider it. The band is becoming a business/label of it's own because we're so fucking good at what we do we now charge for other services for other bands.
> 
> ...


This seems to be the formula for successful bands these days. Own everything and self promote.

I first read about it from Joe Bonamassa of all people. No one would take him seriously and he struggled to book gigs as they thought selling the blues wouldn't make enough money, so he had to turn himself into the product and built an industry around himself.


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## budda (Dec 29, 2022)

I did the DIY thing. It did not pan out despite the connections and help from pretty much all corners. Ymmv.


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## Boofchuck (Dec 30, 2022)

Screamingdaisy said:


> This seems to be the formula for successful bands these days. Own everything and self promote.
> 
> I first read about it from Joe Bonamassa of all people. No one would take him seriously and he struggled to book gigs as they thought selling the blues wouldn't make enough money, so he had to turn himself into the product and built an industry around himself.


Yeah, I think a critical thing moving forward will be for us to provide services beyond just our shows and music. Things like recording and producing other bands, selling unique merch, ghost writing for other people, creating album art, selling samples, etc.


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## jonsick (Dec 31, 2022)

Boofchuck said:


> Yeah, I think a critical thing moving forward will be for us to provide services beyond just our shows and music. Things like recording and producing other bands, selling unique merch, ghost writing for other people, creating album art, selling samples, etc.


Just take it from me. Don't get into the making beats market for rappers. Bloody hell, what a super annoying and infinitely entitled and ridiculous client base.

I had six clients until I quit. Not a single one of them was worth the bother.


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## Boofchuck (Dec 31, 2022)

jonsick said:


> Just take it from me. Don't get into the making beats market for rappers. Bloody hell, what a super annoying and infinitely entitled and ridiculous client base.
> 
> I had six clients until I quit. Not a single one of them was worth the bother.


Thanks for the advice. That's not surprising at all to hear lol.


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## budda (Dec 31, 2022)

jonsick said:


> Just take it from me. Don't get into the making beats market for rappers. Bloody hell, what a super annoying and infinitely entitled and ridiculous client base.
> 
> I had six clients until I quit. Not a single one of them was worth the bother.


How is this different than any other client base?


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## Andromalia (Jan 2, 2023)

jonsick said:


> The last "figure" I was told was £7500, or 40% whichever the greater for a venue in London.


Well, to counter this, it's been some years now but Devin Townsend's merch booth was physical cash only... I had to get out and find an ATM because they wouldn't take VISA. Reeked of VAT fraud or trying to hide merch sales from the venue to me to be honest. That was the tour with Shining and Periphery opening in Europe.
When I go to a show, I want to have fun, not to have to deal with how the band, the management and the venue jockey to get more cash than the other.


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## jonsick (Jan 3, 2023)

Andromalia said:


> Well, to counter this, it's been some years now but Devin Townsend's merch booth was physical cash only... I had to get out and find an ATM because they wouldn't take VISA. Reeked of VAT fraud or trying to hide merch sales from the venue to me to be honest. That was the tour with Shining and Periphery opening in Europe.
> When I go to a show, I want to have fun, not to have to deal with how the band, the management and the venue jockey to get more cash than the other.


Well I have no idea why or how. Historically, merch has always been cash only in the UK. It's only been the last 5 years that I have seen paying by card as an option or the last 1-2 where it's been mandatory. Of course it depends on the venue and of course the merch.


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## Lozek (Jan 5, 2023)

Andromalia said:


> Well, to counter this, it's been some years now but Devin Townsend's merch booth was physical cash only... I had to get out and find an ATM because they wouldn't take VISA. Reeked of VAT fraud or trying to hide merch sales from the venue to me to be honest. That was the tour with Shining and Periphery opening in Europe.
> When I go to a show, I want to have fun, not to have to deal with how the band, the management and the venue jockey to get more cash than the other.


I seem to remember something about the small Card terminals which work in Europe not working in the UK and vice versa, it's a known headache that merch companies have to deal with. This could be as simple as not wanting to invest in a complete infrastructure for a handful of shows rather than fraud


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## Wiltonauer (Monday at 9:58 PM)

Lozek said:


> I seem to remember something about the small Card terminals which work in Europe not working in the UK and vice versa, it's a known headache that merch companies have to deal with. This could be as simple as not wanting to invest in a complete infrastructure for a handful of shows rather than fraud


They could also be doing cash-only to avoid credit card processing fees, which can be significant compared to the gross profit on a merch item. I wonder if you could offset that by charging a bit more, as people might be watching their cash closely but not be as price sensitive if they are pulling out the plastic.


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## crushingpetal (Monday at 10:46 PM)

Watch the "Bus Invaders" YouTube episode of your favorite touring metal band. Then take a shower.


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## soul_lip_mike (Monday at 11:08 PM)

Screamingdaisy said:


> The wierdest thing I've seen was in my last city.
> 
> Opener - 30 people arrive, 25 people leave (were only there to see the opener?)
> 1st Act - 50 people arrive, 40 people leave (were only there to see the 1st act)
> ...


This was me when I saw Periphery open for some shitty band called Dance Gavin Dance.


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## Lozek (Tuesday at 6:44 AM)

crushingpetal said:


> Watch the "Bus Invaders" YouTube episode of your favorite touring metal band. Then take a shower.


Cleanliness of showers, quality of catering and availability of power points in the backstage room are the main contributors to a touring musicians mental health, or lack of.


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## budda (Tuesday at 7:57 AM)

Lozek said:


> Cleanliness of showers, quality of catering and availability of power points in the backstage room are the main contributors to a touring musicians mental health, or lack of.


All hail Masquerade in Atlanta.


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## GunpointMetal (Tuesday at 5:03 PM)

Emperoff said:


> I know metal musicians that won't stop complaining about how "the scene" dies because people don't support it, yet I NEVER see them on other local band's gigs. It's just this hypocrisy of complaining about how the bands you like don't make it big, but you don't contribute to "the scene" you seem to love so much.


The way I see it, if you have to count on "friend credit" from "the scene" to get people to the show, you're doing it wrong. I would hope that my musician friends are too busy worrying about their craft and their shows and their promotion to make a point of showing up to my gig because of the scene or whatever, and I certainly would hope that fellow musician friends wouldn't waste their time and money coming to see my band if they didn't enjoy the music. There's always this notion that you're just supposed to support the scene because...but if a band sucks, they should play to an empty room. Encouraging their sucking isn't helping the scene. If a band can only pull a crowd by making the other bands in town feel guilty about not showing up, or if the only people who show up are other musicians, that's not success or positivity, that's pity and it won't get you to the next town. Some of my favorite people in our scene play in bands that I can't fucking stand, but they're good at what they do, bust their asses, and bring people who are actually fans to shows instead of a bunch of grumpy guitar players who just wanna ogle the pedalboards for the evening. I'll boost their stuff on social media, but I'm not paying for a ticket to see a band making music I don't care about, or skipping a rehearsal to go to a show for a band that just isn't good, because "support the scene" or whatever. Propping up a dead horse isn't good for anyone, and if the horse can run, it doesn't need my help.


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## crushingpetal (Wednesday at 10:37 AM)

Lozek said:


> Cleanliness of showers, quality of catering and availability of power points in the backstage room are the main contributors to a touring musicians mental health, or lack of.


Entheos said their tour hack was to get a Planet Fitness membership before a tour (something like $10 a month), then go there for showers after a show.


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## Boofchuck (Thursday at 12:52 AM)

crushingpetal said:


> Entheos said their tour hack was to get a Planet Fitness membership before a tour (something like $10 a month), then go there for showers after a show.


That's what we do. Definitely don't have time after every show, but the days we get to go are a god send. We'll spend like 3 hours in there working out, doing yoga, showering, grooming, and rubbing one out lol.


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## mongey (Thursday at 8:31 PM)

I’m not playing in gigging bands anymore. 2 young kids and I’m in my late 40s. Just couldn’t be bothered with the hassle vs the reward. 

I still have past band mates doing it in other bands. They say it’s gotten worse with people at gigs , and it was fucking terrible before. So I can only imagine.


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## BenSolace (Yesterday at 7:40 AM)

Pretty much medically/mentally excluded from tours without money it seems haha! I can't sleep in a van as I need a CPAP machine at night, plus have two herniated disks that would leave me largely immobile without a decent bed. Showering anywhere without 100% privacy is a no-no (I can't even use public toilets). Dietary requirements mean I couldn't live off of burgers and other fast food shit for more than a day or two.

Luckily I'm happy playing local gigs (what few there are left) and a few one-offs further afield. That approach got my band a Bloodstock appearance, so had we not gone on hiatus for a while we may well have had more opportunities like that.


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## sakeido (Yesterday at 6:25 PM)

jonsick said:


> I said this was going to be where music ended up about ten years ago. As one here said, a bunch of YouTubers making singles. Yes, that is exactly what you're going to have left. Well, that and those making a career using Daddy's money or manufactured "metal" acts conjured up by 50 year olds who study markets and formulas.


dunno why you put metal in quotes, doesn't get any more metal than getting old, broken down and tired in the process of making yourself financial stable enough to burn your vacation time to play a bunch of gigs at horrible dive bars to 5 people per show!

but yeah the cover band advice is great. The most successful musician I know - as in, him and his band all pay their bills by playing music - are in a long running cover band and have played the same engagement, weekly, at one bar or another for 20+ years now on top of doing private parties, corporate gigs, whatever.

Original music though? you do it for love, not money, because you have a 1 in 15 million chance of making it, and even if you "make it" the band's good years might only last for an album or two.. and even then, the band itself will probably never turn a profit, all your money has to come from shilling crap using the modest soapbox the band gave you, your spotify listener count drops lower and lower and you watch newer bands go blowing past you because somehow not even your old fans want to tune in anymore.. and don't forget the real expense, when you start a band and go all in on it instead of going to school, getting a trade, etc. you will fall way behind in life and maybe never make up that ground


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## budda (Yesterday at 6:36 PM)

not sure if “fall behind” is the right word. Not everyone wants a wife and kids by 25. What you do lose more often than is financial freedom. You’ll also know how to do more with less though. 

I 100% wish I didnt finish school and tried to tour at 20. It would have been more fun .


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## sakeido (Yesterday at 6:47 PM)

budda said:


> not sure if “fall behind” is the right word. Not everyone wants a wife and kids by 25. What you do lose more often than is financial freedom. You’ll also know how to do more with less though.
> 
> I 100% wish I didnt finish school and tried to tour at 20. It would have been more fun .


The financial freedom is what I mean. Wife can wait, kids should definitely wait because for quite a while, your life is over while you look after them. Paying a mortgage sucks ass BUT I'm still glad I bought a house just so I can stay in this dumb fuckin market. Housing bubbles aren't a big deal... if you have a house.

Come to think of it, it's not even good advice anymore.. young people today have no conceivable path to home ownership. What does "falling behind" even matter? Game's over before you start. So go ahead, be in a band! Form some kind of weird art collective and live in a bus with 20 of your friends... drive up and down the Pacific coast playing shows and sleeping in national parks. Sounds like a great time


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