# Harmonizing Hungarian Minor



## metaljon (Apr 12, 2015)

I've recently taken up learning the Hungarian Minor scale because it has great qualities for the kind of music I play (tech death). However, while the style in which I write escews chords in favor of very fast single note riffs (with power chords or double stops thrown in), I like using arpeggios in my riffs to create the semblance of a conventional harmony. That's where I'm running into difficulty with Hungarian Minor. It has a couple of nasty modes that don't even form standard triads (Mixolydian b2 b5 and Locrian bb3 bb7). Also, Ultraphrygian only has a triad, as its bb7 doesn't fit with the P5.

Any ideas for how to harmonize the scale? I assume borrowed chords would generally be the way to go, but that seems like it would be touch and go.


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## Kashmir (Apr 12, 2015)

Are you looking for triads? Larger chords? Or just power chords?

If your just looking for chords to harmonize over the triad progression is as follows (in C):

C D E&#9837; F&#9839; G A&#9837; B

Cm - D7b5 - E+ - F#dim - GM - AbM - Bm

So you have power chords for C - G - Ab - B which if you just play those four power chords in order is very metal sounding. With a scale like this though feel free to blend in other similar scales or anything you choose.


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## Winspear (Apr 12, 2015)

Yup harmonizing 5ths give you powerchords on the 1st, 5th, 6th, and 7th degrees of the scale as stated above. 
Just dyad (1st and 3rd) harmony gives you: m M M ? M M m
Triads give you: m, ?, +(augmented), ?, M, M, m
Sevenths: mM7, ?, +M7, ?, M7, M7, ?

So you have at least regular dyads for everything except the 4th degree. Borrowed chords and the like are fine but if you are trying to be strict, I would just put the tones together in whatever way sounds good to you and forget about conventional chords for the odd ones. Perhaps if you want to root something on the 4th degree you could instead for example treat it as an inversion of the 7th degree, having its 5th in the bass.

Also with odd scales don't forget to look for non-tertian enharmonic equivalents of typical harmony. I don't think it's the case with this scale but often you might find an enharmonic equivalent. E.g harmonic minor contains a perfect 5th on its 4th degree but also an augmented 4th which you could use as a diminished fifth.


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## Lokasenna (Apr 12, 2015)

Best scale ever.


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## Aion (Apr 12, 2015)

You pretty much have three options.

Highly chromatic harmony: If you know about secondary dominants, secondary diminished, augmented sixth chords, and borrowed chords (which you already mentioned) then use those. Fortunately the V and I both already work as chords, I'd turn most of the ii chords into iiminb9 chords and mostly avoid the iv and III.

Modal harmony: Non traditional but still strict harmony. Chords voiced in fourths are really common in modal music and they would work here. You could also do voicings in fifths. You can also go to other voicings (seconds, thirds, sixths, sevenths, and nines would all work), but four guitar it's probably easiest to stick to fourths and fifths.

Bass Based: I'm making the term up, but it's silly and it works. Basically what's going on here is you just look at what the bass note is (even if the riff moves around there's only one real bass note per riff or per implied chord). From there it's about testing out different sounds above that bass note. It's not at all connected to traditional harmony, it's about sonically exploring how one chord (either broken or in block form) sounds over a particular bass note.

I see those as your options, if you want more information on any of them I could probably elaborate a bit more.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 12, 2015)

metaljon said:


> It has a couple of nasty modes that don't even form standard triads (Mixolydian b2 b5 and Locrian bb3 bb7). Also, Ultraphrygian only has a triad, as its bb7 doesn't fit with the P5.



I wouldn't bother with this if I were you.



> Any ideas for how to harmonize the scale? I assume borrowed chords would generally be the way to go, but that seems like it would be touch and go.


Would something like this work?


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## Kashmir (Apr 12, 2015)

A solo like the one posted above would work just fine for Hungarian minor. Some other scales to mix in would be Harmonic minor and its' 5th degree, Prygian Dominant. You can hear a lot Prygian Dominant in the Egyptian sounding riff from Powerslave by Iron Maiden.


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## metaljon (Apr 13, 2015)

Kashmir said:


> Are you looking for triads? Larger chords? Or just power chords?


Sorry, should have mentioned I'm looking for at least sevenths, though I use ninths (most times fully voiced) quite a bit, too.



Kashmir said:


> Cm - D7b5 - E+ - F#dim - GM - AbM - Bm


The 2nd mode has a major third--m7b5 isn't to scale. The 4th mode has a perfect fifth--diminished isn't to scale.

On the other hand, if you were to borrow chords from the Harmonic Minor scale, which I thought about doing because it only differs from Hungarian Minor in the #4, you would have a ii7b5. And you'd net a IV7 and a vii°7, which round out the scale rather nicely. The problem is you lose some of the distinctive tonality of Hungarian Minor that way. As you might expect, it sounds like a confused admixture of the scales. It actually sounds better to stay strictly within the Hungarian Minor scale, despite the non-tertian chords that come with it (technically, they are, but none of the commonly used scales contains a diminished third interval).



EtherealEntity said:


> Also with odd scales don't forget to look for non-tertian enharmonic equivalents of typical harmony.


I thought of this--more specifically, quartal chords--for Mixolydian b2 b5. It forms a very natural looking and sounding chord: T-4-b7-3. You could also go with a b5 altered dominant. The resolution to iM7 is only partial, but the peculiarly dark character of it has a certain appeal. Also, the resolution from vii to i is pretty strong, so I think that'd be the most likely cadence. You could go quartal for Locrian bb3 bb7, too. That'd be I-4-bb7-bb3. It's a nice sounding chord on its own, but I think its tonality is more akin to a 6/9 (enharmonic with the bb3 and bb7) than something minor or diminished.

Also, mixing tertian and quartal chords 1) really confuses the harmony, and 2) chords voiced in fourths are very difficult to play arpeggiated using alternate picking, which happens to be exactly what I'm wanting to do. I could switch to sweeping, but I like the percussive attack of alternate picking over the legato sound of sweeping.



Mr. Big Noodles said:


> I wouldn't bother with this if I were you.


Yeah, you would. Because despite the harmonization problems the scale presents, for the music that you would play if you were me, it sounds freaking great. \m/ \m/

Kidding aside, could you elaborate on that? Is it simply because the scale doesn't harmonize well and that's why it's rarely used except for chord-scale soloing?



Mr. Big Noodles said:


> Would something like this work?


Work for what exactly? I'm not entirely sure what's being suggested here.



Kashmir said:


> A solo like the one posted above would work just fine for Hungarian minor. Some other scales to mix in would be Harmonic minor and its' 5th degree, Prygian Dominant. You can hear a lot Prygian Dominant in the Egyptian sounding riff from Powerslave by Iron Maiden.


Is that what it is? A solo? In that case, it's pretty much the opposite of what I'm looking for. I want to create chord progressions in Hungarian Minor.


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## metaljon (Apr 13, 2015)

Aion said:


> You pretty much have three options.
> 
> Highly chromatic harmony
> 
> ...


Would secondary dominants apply to a scale that contains no unaltered dominants? The only one in the scale is II7b5. I can see where augmented sixths would fit into the scale. I might look into incorporating those.

I thought about quartally voiced chords, but realized they'd be too difficult to play in the manner I want to at the speed I want to. Fourths create a very unique problem for guitarists: the strings are tuned apart by a perfect fourth (all but one, anyway). If you're fingering chords, that's not a problem--it's a benefit in fact. But I'm not playing chords, I'm playing arpeggios. What's more, I'm alternately picking them because these are rhythm ideas and I want to play them palm muted at very fast tempos.

I know exactly what you mean when you talk about "bass based" stuff. I generally refer to that as riff-based. As you said, most metal riffs will generally have a tonic that functions as a pedal tone or something like that. As long as you arrive back on the tonic or chord tone of the root chord, you're pretty free to do whatever you want. That's one of the reasons why chromaticism is fairly common in metal. In this specific case, however, the whole reason for wanting to harmonize the scale is precisely so I can move away from the root.


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## AugmentedFourth (Apr 13, 2015)

metaljon said:


> Yeah, you would. Because despite the harmonization problems the scale presents, for the music that you would play if you were me, it sounds freaking great. \m/ \m/
> 
> Kidding aside, could you elaborate on that? Is it simply because the scale doesn't harmonize well and that's why it's rarely used except for chord-scale soloing?



I might be wrong here, but I think what MBN is getting at is that trying to form chords directly from the corresponding 1, 3, 5, 7 scale degrees of the modes is not the best idea for modes that are essentially unusable (e.g. with a diminished third and seventh).

It makes more sense if you look at the example he posted.



metaljon said:


> Work for what exactly? I'm not entirely sure what's being suggested here.
> 
> 
> Is that what it is? A solo? In that case, it's pretty much the opposite of what I'm looking for. I want to create chord progressions in Hungarian Minor.



It's exactly what you asked for. It's a chord progression in Hungarian Minor, even in the style you specified (arpeggios, including 7th chords and 7th chords w/ extensions).

You can see how he took some of the scale tones to be used in more than one function. E.g., for the Ab chord instead of taking the literal 7th degree (which would be a major 7) he used the augmented 6th as the top chord tone, making the function of the chord different so that it sounds good going back to G (in a tritone substitution sort of way).


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## metaljon (Apr 13, 2015)

Oh, okay. My understanding of theory is probably insufficient to grasp the subtleties of that. Honestly, I didn't even understand the notation of the second chord. I had to look at the notes to figure out it was a CM7b5, which I didn't even realize was a chord people played, but makes sense when you think of it as the complement to +M7.

As an example of a chord progression, I assume this fits the bill. I'm sure there are some techniques and ideas patent within the example he gave, but I'd need someone to explain it. I guess what I was looking for in a roundabout way was a generalized model for writing harmonies within the key. Perhaps that's what he was getting at when he said don't bother. Maybe I need to move onto Music Theory 201 to actually make this work.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 13, 2015)

What AugmentedFourth said. There are tertian chords in there, but they do not always conform to the typical way that we construct chords in the diatonic scale system. Here is what you get if you do a "1 3 5 7" sort of harmonization:

Cm&#8710; - C E&#9837; G B
D7(&#9837;5) - D F# A&#9837; C
E&#9837;+&#8710; - E&#9837; G B D
F#ø7(sub2) - F# A&#9837; C E&#9837;
G&#8710; - G B D F#
A&#9837;&#8710; - A&#9837; C E&#9837; G
Bm(°7) - B D F# A&#9837;

Some of these aren't really tertian chords, or are a little deceptive in their spelling. If you look at it by pitch class, these are the available chords from the scale:

Cm&#8710; - C E&#9837; G B
C°&#8710; - C E&#9837; F# B (Not really a tertian chord, but our ear will still hear it in a tertian context.)
D7(&#9837;5) - D F# A&#9837; C (* This is a symmetrical chord that inverts to another one.)
E&#9837;+&#8710; - E&#9837; G B D
No tertian chords from F#.
G&#8710; - G B D F# (Although you might want to stick with the triad in order to have the dominant sound, as I did in my progression.)
G+&#8710; - G B E&#9837; F# (Once again, you might want to stick with the triad.)
A&#9837;&#8710; - A&#9837; C E&#9837; G
A&#9837;&#8710;(&#9837;5) - A&#9837; C D G
A&#9837;7 - A&#9837; C E&#9837; F# (** The red chords function well as augmented sixth chords.)
A&#9837;7(&#9837;5) - A&#9837; C D F# (*)
A&#9837;m&#8710; - A&#9837; B E&#9837; G
A&#9837;m7 - A&#9837; B E&#9837; F#
A&#9837;°&#8710; - A&#9837; B D G
A&#9837;ø7 - A&#9837; B D F# (**)
Bm - B D F# (*** There's no real seventh from the scale to use for the B chords.)
B - B E&#9837; F#


Edit: You can imply other harmonies through dyads and incomplete chords if you know what you're doing. For example, B D A&#9837; is going to be heard as B°7 (vii°; B D F A&#9837, and F# C E&#9837;is going to sound like F#°7 (vii°7/V; F# A C E&#9837, so you have some wiggle room to get more functional harmonies in there and make it sound as though you are using tones that you really aren't using.


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## metaljon (Apr 14, 2015)

Cool. Thanks for the ideas, guys. This thread was just the stimulation I needed. I'm going to try a few of the things you suggested and see how they work out.


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## Aion (Apr 15, 2015)

metaljon said:


> Would secondary dominants apply to a scale that contains no unaltered dominants? The only one in the scale is II7b5. I can see where augmented sixths would fit into the scale. I might look into incorporating those.
> 
> I know exactly what you mean when you talk about "bass based" stuff. I generally refer to that as riff-based. As you said, most metal riffs will generally have a tonic that functions as a pedal tone or something like that. As long as you arrive back on the tonic or chord tone of the root chord, you're pretty free to do whatever you want. That's one of the reasons why chromaticism is fairly common in metal. In this specific case, however, the whole reason for wanting to harmonize the scale is precisely so I can move away from the root.



Part of the point of secondary dominants is to use notes that aren't in the scale. After all, a V/iii chord in natural major contains two notes that are not found within the scale. If you want to stick to a scale without leaving it at all then you can't use secondary dominants, secondary diminished, augmented sixth chords, etc. The idea here is that you end up coming back to your tonic, but you allow yourself to not be so strict with your harmony.

What I was talking about with modal harmony doesn't actually involving coming back to any chord tone or the root. You stop thinking about those as relevant.

Here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand when they try and combine tonal harmony with non-classical scales/modes (i.e anything except natural major, harmonic major, harmonic minor, melodic minor): these systems were not meant to function together. There are ways to force them to coexist on equal terms, but it almost always feels like the composer is trying to work against their materials rather than with them. Perhaps the most famous composer to combine Hungarian musical styles with classical music is Franz Liszt. If you listen to Liszt's music, most people will hear classical music. However, classical music is mostly based by having chords move in fourths/fifths, which is a very functional sound. However, Liszt helped popularize chords moving in thirds. It's far less functional and more based on careful voice leading, which edges towards a more modal sound.

Other composers have since explored alternative scales, and most of them eschew conventional harmony. Because it usually doesn't work. Tonal harmony was created specifically for classical music.

Coming from the writing style you've described, I'll try and give some more specific suggestions. For the sake of convenience I'll used numbered scale degrees where 1 is your tonic. Take a shape, doesn't matter if it's scaler (1, 2, 3, 4), arpegiated (1, 3, 5, 7) or a mix (1, 4, 5, 6) and move it up and down. So if you're doing the fully arpegiated example you might go: 1, 3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6, 8, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. Or maybe instead of moving it in seconds you move in fourths 1, 3, 5, 7, 4, 6, 8, 10, 7, 9, 11, 13, etc. Maybe you explore moving the shapes up and then down: 1, 3, 5, 7, 8, 6, 4, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. Or maybe you play with them even more so it's harder to track: 1, 3, 7, 5, 6, 4, 8, 10, 9, 7, 5, 3, etc.

You can also go more abstract, exploring what the different diatonic thirds (or whatever interval) of the hungarian scale sound like over different bass notes, and you can explore different things at once.

The problem of trying to combine tonal harmony and non-classical modes is a common one. I went through it, and plenty of people I know have too. You can allow yourself to get really chromatic and not be so modal, or you can disregard tonal harmony and embrace the idea of exploring what different tones, shapes, etc. sound like over different roots while sticking to your key. And obviously you can do both at different points, but you're not going to get a truly classical sound when you're not using classical materials.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 22, 2015)

Aion said:


> Here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand when they try and combine tonal harmony with non-classical scales/modes (i.e anything except natural major, harmonic major, harmonic minor, melodic minor): these systems were not meant to function together. There are ways to force them to coexist on equal terms, but it almost always feels like the composer is trying to work against their materials rather than with them. Perhaps the most famous composer to combine Hungarian musical styles with classical music is Franz Liszt. If you listen to Liszt's music, most people will hear classical music. However, classical music is mostly based by having chords move in fourths/fifths, which is a very functional sound. However, Liszt helped popularize chords moving in thirds. It's far less functional and more based on careful voice leading, which edges towards a more modal sound.
> 
> Other composers have since explored alternative scales, and most of them eschew conventional harmony. Because it usually doesn't work. Tonal harmony was created specifically for classical music.



Here is Liszt using mediant relationships and _not_ pretending to be a Hungarian gypsy:

Franz Liszt - Nocturne No.3


(By measure number.)

14 - A&#9837; (0:41)
15 - Fm
16 - C
17 - Am
18 - E
19 - C#m
20 - D# > D&#9837;m
21 - E&#9837;

He is using a technique called harmonic sequencing. The model (A&#9837; Fm) is transposed up a major third, so our first sequence is C Am. The second sequence is yet another major third higher, E C#m. C#m is enharmonically D&#9837;m, which is iv, and the D# in the following measure is enharmonically E&#9837;, which is V, then he respells them as such and noodles around with that for a bit to give us a phrygian half cadence (iv6 V; it has absolutely nothing to do with the phrygian mode). It's a cool cadence for sure, but completely normal in Western tonal music. My favorite movement from the Brandenburg concerti _is_ a phrygian half cadence.

J.S. Bach - Brandenburg Concerto No.3, Mvt. II


(Am/C B)

Back to the Liszt Nocturne, we can understand that whole progression, with its chromatic twists and turns, as an elaboration of the path between tonic and dominant. He is using different internal relationships, but the overall scheme is the same as any other tonal composer from before him. The key of the second section (mm.26, 1:35) is B major, which is a minor third above A, so we have some mediant relations going on at a greater level.

32 - B (1:50)
33 - D#ø7 > G#7
34 - C/G
35 - Dm7
36 - G7
37 - C

In 33, it sounds like he's going to tonicize ii (C#m), but instead we get an enharmonic modulation using G#7 (which is enharmonically A&#9837;7, which is enharmonically Ger+6 in C) to go to C/G (I6,4 in the new key), which also has a mediant relationship with A&#9837;7 (though this fact is not as important as the Ger+6 information).

38 - Fm (2:05)
39 - Am (Chromatic mediant)
40 - E
41 - G#7 (Chromatic mediant)
42 - G#ø7 > C#7
43 - F#7
44 - B7
45 - E (Circle of fifths)
46 - E > G# (Chromatic mediant)

And there are a few more in there at the end. I don't see how one could fit "modes" (other than major and minor, because those are modes as well) into what Liszt is doing here. Chromatic mediant progressions are an extension of the major/minor chromatic language. The "church modes" and the exotic/synthetic modes were an extension of the diatonic language. Liszt's use of modes does not intersect with Liszt's use of chromatic mediant progressions, or even diatonic mediant progressions.

Franz Liszt - Hungarian Rhapsody No.2


C# phrygian dominant (from the notation, it looks like he's thinking of it as an altered C# minor). Lots of dominant-tonic progressions, with some subdominants thrown in and a brief tonicization of the relative major key, E. Really standard stuff. Telemann could have written this harmony, were it not for the consistent use of the melodic augmented second and the half-diminished dominant seventh chord. The "Lassan" section is in F#, the key of the subdominant. He seems to think that you can do this exotic modal stuff with normal harmony. In fact, I think it works quite well (and perhaps better) with the normal mix of progressions. Where are you getting this idea that chords in traditional (non-Western-classical) modal music move around in thirds? Second and fourths are standard, maybe thirds if it's something like I VI IV II VII V (in which case, Western classical music has had that for 400 years).

Dunántúli Ugrós


A transcription is available. I don't hear any mediant progressions.

By the way, here's Mozart using the "Hungarian minor" scale:

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart - C Minor Fantasy, K.V. 475


Doesn't sound particularly Hungarian, if you ask me. I don't think that's what he way going for, anyway.


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