# Ibanez Quality Tiers?



## Kodee_Kaos (Aug 5, 2017)

How do the different series of Ibanez compare? I know J-Custom is supposed to be top of the line. Then there is J-Craft, which is synonymous with J-Custom? Then there is the Prestige line, which is the lowest end of Fujigen guitars, but still pretty good. Is there really much difference in fit and finish? How do J-Customs of 2017 compare to J-custom models from say, 1997? What about Prestige models from that era?


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## Sir Ibanez (Aug 6, 2017)

Team J.Craft - it's sort of common mark only. Prestige line means all japanese-made guitars after 2003. Overall good quality. J.custom - top of the production line. Selected materials, best quality. All guitars in this line made by highest skill luthiers. As a rule - limited edition guitars.
I think the best quality Ibanez guitars - made in 2005-2006 and soon. The guitar industry is constantly developing and become more and more qualitative.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 6, 2017)

So does this mean that everything Ibanez makes now that doesn't explicitly carry a "J" in its nomenclature mean it's made in China/Indonesia then?


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## Leviathus (Aug 6, 2017)

Sugi>J.Custom>Prestige

I believe Team J-Craft is synonymous with the builders of Ibby's at the Fujigen plant, don't quote me on this though.


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## dr_game0ver (Aug 6, 2017)

Aren't all standard prestige made by Team J-craft? Also, how about the LACS?


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## Zhysick (Aug 6, 2017)

LACS means for "Los Angeles Custom Shop" so no Team J. Craft there. It's supposed to be better than Japanese guitars but anyway that's only for artists I believe...


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## narad (Aug 6, 2017)

Zhysick said:


> LACS means for "Los Angeles Custom Shop" so no Team J. Craft there. It's supposed to be better than Japanese guitars but anyway that's only for artists I believe...



I don't think there's any "supposed to be better than the Japanese guitars" -- they just cater to the artists, address all the weird artist customizations they want. I also wouldn't necessarily put Sugi above the J-craft builders.


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 6, 2017)

ya prestige level instruments are remarkably consistent. I've got one from 89 and 2 from 2002 and I've played tons of more recent ones...
other then the trems they are literally all the same.

j.craft and sugi might do more customization and more intricate options but the base of the instrument is already pretty good at the prestige level.


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## Carl Kolchak (Aug 6, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> j.craft and sugi might do more customization and more intricate options but the base of the instrument is already pretty good at the prestige level.



I thought the Prestige class was made in Indonesia now?


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## NickS (Aug 6, 2017)

Premiums are made in Indo, Prestige are all Japanese made, as far as I know. Where are all the Ibby experts when they are needed around here?


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## NikolajBak (Aug 6, 2017)

My 2015 and my brand new prestige are both from Japan, so it seems like they are still made there. As I mentioned in the NGD thread there is a difference in fret edge treatment, even though they both were marketed as "prestige fret edge treatment" my S5527 from 2015 has rounded "ball" ends while the new rg652mpbfx has not, they are more pointy, not sharp by any means, but still not as smooth as the S series.
So it seems like the features and quality can vary intentionally within each tier.


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 6, 2017)

Carl Kolchak said:


> I thought the Prestige class was made in Indonesia now?



there was like 2 years where some prestiges were made in indo a long time ago. Otherwise the prestige are all japanese.


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## marcwormjim (Aug 6, 2017)

NickS said:


> Where are all the Ibby experts when they are needed around here?



They're in the non-Ibanez threads, telling the OP he should have bought a prestige.


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 6, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> there was like 2 years where some prestiges were made in indo a long time ago. Otherwise the prestige are all japanese.



They were actually made in Korea. I used to own one


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## Metropolis (Aug 6, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> there was like 2 years where some prestiges were made in indo a long time ago. Otherwise the prestige are all japanese.



Nope, they were made in Korea between 2005-2008 and only S-series guitars.
http://ibanez.wikia.com/wiki/Prestige_series


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 7, 2017)

To my knowledge-
Gio - China
Standard - Indonesia
Iron Label - Indonesia
Premium - Indonesia
Prestige - Japan
J. Custom - Japan

Then there's LACS and Sugi builds but those are more niche. If you're buying one of those you probably know what you're looking for already. Aren't they also opening up a new Japan-based semi-custom shop as well? They previewed like a white...RGD I want to say?

And to quote a post from some other Ibanez thread...
J.custom - some features / best quality = $$$$
Prestige - less features/ better quality = $$$
Premium - more features / less quality = $$
Standard - less features / less quality = $

Personally I'd stick to the SSO motto: "Buy a used Prestige"


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## NikolajBak (Aug 7, 2017)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> To my knowledge-
> Gio - China
> Standard - Indonesia
> Iron Label - Indonesia
> ...



+1
It is is interesting how some of the premiums are actually more expensive than the prestiges.
Take a look at the rg1070PBZ: 11 pc neck, luminescent side dots, stainless steel frets, gotoh tuners, natural binding, wenge fretboard etc.
I would have jumped it immediately, but the playability on the premiums I've tried havn't been on par with my prestiges. And I would allways put playability first.
That said It would be nice to see this as a prestige with a fixed bridge or low pro edge. I'm not getting why the prestiges can't have the cool features.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 7, 2017)

The worst thing is the premiums were supposed to be an alternate option to the prestige line for people on a budget. The idea was they would have a few cool features with the aim of keeping costs down so they could be sold for around $700-800. 



Zhysick said:


> LACS means for "Los Angeles Custom Shop" so no Team J. Craft there. It's supposed to be better than Japanese guitars but anyway that's only for artists I believe...



LACS ranges from better than J-custom to Iron Label quality. They are meant to be really inconsistent.


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## Sogradde (Aug 7, 2017)

IIRC the only difference in build quality between a J-Custom and a Prestige are the rounded fret edges, which prestiges don't have (anymore?).
Other than that, the upcharge comes from the features and selected materials rather than from build quality.
Premium quality is pretty much all over the place for newer models but a bit more consistent on models that have been available for a while, at least that's my experience.
However, premiums don't have a neck as thin as the prestiges and I honestly don't like the shape of the necks so I personally stick with prestiges.
RG550s (pre-prestige MIJ Ibbys) are considered by many to be the golden era Ibanez'es but it's up to you whether or not you agree. Having briefly played one, they are nice but I still prefer newer prestiges. 
I seem to be an outlier though, as I also like my Edge Zero alot. 

Tl;dr: buy a used prestige.


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## Grindspine (Aug 7, 2017)

The J-Craft moniker is stuff made out of the Fujigen plant prior to calling them Prestige. Prestige made now are from Japan and start the serial number with the letter F. Artist models like the Satriani JS2410 also come from this Japan plant with the letter F starting the serial number.

Artist models such as the JEM77WWDP Steve Vai "Woody" are Indonesian made with the serial starting with I. Regular S series, RG series, RGA series, Premium, and Iron Label guitars also share this serial and origin.

miKro guitars are made in China and start the serial with a C.

This can all be confirmed for current production Ibanez guitars with a quick look at serial numbers from the in-stock item photos for Sweetwater.


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## AxeHappy (Aug 7, 2017)

"Team J Craft" was nothing more than marketing. It appears on Prestige guitars.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 8, 2017)

NikolajBak said:


> That said It would be nice to see this as a prestige with a fixed bridge or low pro edge. I'm not getting why the prestiges can't have the cool features.



It's pretty obvious once you take the time to think about it. Craftsmanship is expensive, and features are expensive. For the Japanese models, the high level of craftsmanship is what costs you. For the Indonesian builds, where wages are substantially lower and QC is much more loose, you're saving a pretty penny on craftsmanship *but*, those cool specs and features aren't free; and those are what end up costing you there. 
So to combine both of them into one build would result in you paying both the feature tax as well as the premium for a well crafted instrument, resulting in....J-Custom pricing. And again as other people have said in other threads before, at that price point, most people would be looking at something other than an Ibanez. 



Sogradde said:


> IIRC the only difference in build quality between a J-Custom and a Prestige are the rounded fret edges, which prestiges don't have (anymore?).
> Other than that, the upcharge comes from the features and selected materials rather than from build quality.
> [...]
> I seem to be an outlier though, as I also like my Edge Zero alot.



Yeah, I think of it kind of like PRS. An American built PRS will pretty much play as well as a guitar can play, I don't see a Private Stock (granted, I've never played a PS build) improving _that_ greatly upon a nice Core series on the playability front. *But*, for an extra _several thousand dollars_, you can have absolutely top shelf materials. And clearly, a lot of people are into that and don't mind paying for it.
Granted Ibanez and PRS are about as different as you can get, but I think the general concept there is the same. People like fancy.

And the Edge Zero is the shit. With the ZPS it's probably my favorite trem.


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## NikolajBak (Aug 9, 2017)

Yeah you're right. I guess we have the J-custom and prestige uppercut series, even though the choices are pretty limited. I like the prestige necks, so I wouldn't shy away from an expensive Ibanez with the right features. Even if the prices were similar to the Mayones Duvells. The Ibanez currently in that price range are not very diverse.


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## karjim (Aug 9, 2017)

Big Ibby fan here, I play almost every thing from Ibby since 1987 to nowadays except LACS. I hope LACS are better guitars than J Customs. Because they are very pricey and sometimes I say to myself "that's not the best Ibanez can do ?" Flo and Evo must be far superior.
Team J craft means Prestige Line from Fujigen that's it.
A regular japan RG from late 80's has better maple necks in general than 90's.
The 7680 from 00 you see on my avatar has top notch 5 pieces neck. The maple is better than my 7620 from 98 and the bubinga stripes are far superior than anything else I've seen on Ibbys except some J customs. Then the nightmare begins: the Prestige line started with these beautiful Team J Craft cases . The UV from 2006 I owned was poorly made and I don't even talked about a 1570 from 2003 which was a total piece of shit. Dark days for Ibby from 2003 to 2008. My 2228 from 2010 is pretty well made and the rosewood is quite good, the playability is very very good. I recently grabed a M80M used from 2013 for 750e. It was for the 29'4 scale, the swamp ash and the lundgren. My god what a poor neck ! The guitar sounds great but I can't believe paying that money for this work (1300e !!!). The fret work and the rosewood are just ok.
I played once a FRM100 from china. It was a joke.
People pay more attention to cosmetics than actual quality of woods and playability with Ibanez these days. That's why we can see sexy Indo more expensive than regular Prestige.


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## gunch (Aug 9, 2017)

karjim said:


> Big Ibby fan here, I play almost every thing from Ibby since 1987 to nowadays except LACS.
> Team J craft means Prestige Line from Fujigen that's it.
> A regular japan RG from late 80's has better maple necks in general than 90's.
> The 7680 from 00 you see on my avatar has top notch 5 pieces neck. The maple is better than my 7620 from 98 and the bubinga stripes are far superior than anything else I've seen on Ibbys except some J customs. Then the nightmare begins: the Prestige line started with these beautiful Team J Craft cases . The UV from 2006 I owned was poorly made and I don't even talked about a 1570 from 2003 which was a total piece of shit. Dark days for Ibby from 2003 to 2008. My 2228 from 2010 is pretty well made and the rosewood is quite good. I recently grab a M80M used from 2013. It was for the 29'4 scale, the swamp ash and the lundgren. My god what a poor neck ! The guitar sound great but I can't believe paying that money for this work.
> ...



I thought 05 and 06 prestiges were supposed to be more sought after then other model years

Is there a specific reason why, seems pretty old wives tale to me


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 11, 2017)

silverabyss said:


> I thought 05 and 06 prestiges were supposed to be more sought after then other model years
> 
> Is there a specific reason why, seems pretty old wives tale to me



If I remember correctly it was specifically the RG1570, and it had something to do with the neck construction regarding the walnut striping. Don't really recall though, never read much into it as I've never owned one. It is odd to see that block of time mentioned as a dark space in Ibanez history here, since that slot saw the introduction of the RGA121, RG1570, and RG1527, which seem to be some of SSO's favorites 



NikolajBak said:


> Yeah you're right. I guess we have the J-custom and prestige uppercut series, even though the choices are pretty limited. I like the prestige necks, so I wouldn't shy away from an expensive Ibanez with the right features. Even if the prices were similar to the Mayones Duvells. The Ibanez currently in that price range are not very diverse.



Yeah, I wish they'd diversify in the high end a bit more too. At least they seem to be more open to fixed bridges now, which is a huge step for me personally. Every guitar isn't HSH anymore, HH is a pretty common sight now. Baby steps I guess. I trust they've got a better understanding of what sells than we do, can't fault them for that.


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## Matt08642 (Aug 13, 2017)

karjim said:


> I don't even talked about a 1570 from 2003 which was a total piece of shit. Dark days for Ibby from 2003 to 2008



Dang, my dream guitar as a teenager was one of the cheesy bassboat blue RG1570s with an Edge Pro and shitty IBZ pickups haha


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## purpledc (Aug 23, 2017)

Lorcan Ward said:


> The worst thing is the premiums were supposed to be an alternate option to the prestige line for people on a budget. The idea was they would have a few cool features with the aim of keeping costs down so they could be sold for around $700-800.



Yeah, but looking at the rg1070 i just picked up they are worth the price baing asked. I realize they are more than they initially intended but they offer more than they intended as well. And when looking at 11 piece laminated wenge, purpleheart and bubinga necks and the premium parts i cant get mad at $1300. Imho they offer quite a lot more than the original premiums.


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## Rawkmann (Aug 23, 2017)

Matt08642 said:


> Dang, my dream guitar as a teenager was one of the cheesy bassboat blue RG1570s with an Edge Pro and shitty IBZ pickups haha



I had one and it was amazing.


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## eightsixboy (Aug 24, 2017)

purpledc said:


> Yeah, but looking at the rg1070 i just picked up they are worth the price baing asked. I realize they are more than they initially intended but they offer more than they intended as well. And when looking at 11 piece laminated wenge, purpleheart and bubinga necks and the premium parts i cant get mad at $1300. Imho they offer quite a lot more than the original premiums.



The ones I have seen have been pretty bad. The ones in the pics were at a local store. Other I have played have had issues from fret buzz to bad paint. IMO they are way overpriced, considering they are more then most prestiges, if they were 30-40% cheaper then I could see the value in them.

Just look at the quality craftsmanship lol.


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## purpledc (Aug 24, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> The ones I have seen have been pretty bad. The ones in the pics were at a local store. Other I have played have had issues from fret buzz to bad paint. IMO they are way overpriced, considering they are more then most prestiges, if they were 30-40% cheaper then I could see the value in them.
> 
> Just look at the quality craftsmanship lol.



I don't think anyone ever made a claim that the premium guitars were in prestige league in terms of aesthetic fit and finish. They offer value in the sense you get options that would normally cost you double or more. The fact that these cost more than many prestiges is a bit misleading. Sure if you want meticulous attention to detail prestige is where you go. But $1300 in a prestige does not get you 11 piece laminated necks, figured tops that aren't just veneers, stainless frets, and the locking tuners. And most of those will have the IBZ pickups which aren't always for everyone. IMHO the premium line is for the people who want certain woods and certain types of options and are willing to overlook some cosmetic issues for the sake of getting more for your money. IMHO any guitar no matter how meticulous will eventually have cosmetic issues develop. Its unfortunate that they are not perfect. But honestly? I have seen $3000 gibsons, $2000 prs and $4000 warrior guitars have just as bad if not worse issues than I see in these guitars. Now that's not to say I'm not trying to work out getting a better price with the dealer I chose. I am. But as long as that happens I'm perfectly fine with some cosmetic issues. I don't feel I have to baby the instrument. I will have got a better price and still have a great playing and sounding instrument. And at the end of the day even with the prestige and J. Custom I have seen. I still have yet to see a "perfect" guitar.

Either way. I like mine flaws and all. Especially knowing that to get the same options in a prestige or j. custom well, you cant. The closest guitars are double and triple the price.


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## Rawkmann (Aug 24, 2017)

purpledc said:


> I don't think anyone ever made a claim that the premium guitars were in prestige league in terms of aesthetic fit and finish. They offer value in the sense you get options that would normally cost you double or more. The fact that these cost more than many prestiges is a bit misleading. Sure if you want meticulous attention to detail prestige is where you go. But $1300 in a prestige does not get you 11 piece laminated necks, figured tops that aren't just veneers, stainless frets, and the locking tuners. And most of those will have the IBZ pickups which aren't always for everyone. IMHO the premium line is for the people who want certain woods and certain types of options and are willing to overlook some cosmetic issues for the sake of getting more for your money. IMHO any guitar no matter how meticulous will eventually have cosmetic issues develop. Its unfortunate that they are not perfect. But honestly? I have seen $3000 gibsons, $2000 prs and $4000 warrior guitars have just as bad if not worse issues than I see in these guitars. Now that's not to say I'm not trying to work out getting a better price with the dealer I chose. I am. But as long as that happens I'm perfectly fine with some cosmetic issues. I don't feel I have to baby the instrument. I will have got a better price and still have a great playing and sounding instrument. And at the end of the day even with the prestige and J. Custom I have seen. I still have yet to see a "perfect" guitar.
> 
> Either way. I like mine flaws and all. Especially knowing that to get the same options in a prestige or j. custom well, you cant. The closest guitars are double and triple the price.



The Premiums I've played have generally been extremely nice guitars with no glaringly bad flaws, I'd definitely consider gettting one in the future. Like You said it's nice to be able to get those kinds of options in a well built guitar at that price point. Yours looks awesome btw!


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 25, 2017)

And that's really the attitude you need to have walking into that purchase.
It's not for everyone, but the series definitely does have it's merit.


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## eightsixboy (Aug 27, 2017)

purpledc said:


> I don't think anyone ever made a claim that the premium guitars were in prestige league in terms of aesthetic fit and finish. They offer value in the sense you get options that would normally cost you double or more. The fact that these cost more than many prestiges is a bit misleading. Sure if you want meticulous attention to detail prestige is where you go. But $1300 in a prestige does not get you 11 piece laminated necks, figured tops that aren't just veneers, stainless frets, and the locking tuners. And most of those will have the IBZ pickups which aren't always for everyone. IMHO the premium line is for the people who want certain woods and certain types of options and are willing to overlook some cosmetic issues for the sake of getting more for your money. IMHO any guitar no matter how meticulous will eventually have cosmetic issues develop. Its unfortunate that they are not perfect. But honestly? I have seen $3000 gibsons, $2000 prs and $4000 warrior guitars have just as bad if not worse issues than I see in these guitars. Now that's not to say I'm not trying to work out getting a better price with the dealer I chose. I am. But as long as that happens I'm perfectly fine with some cosmetic issues. I don't feel I have to baby the instrument. I will have got a better price and still have a great playing and sounding instrument. And at the end of the day even with the prestige and J. Custom I have seen. I still have yet to see a "perfect" guitar.
> 
> Either way. I like mine flaws and all. Especially knowing that to get the same options in a prestige or j. custom well, you cant. The closest guitars are double and triple the price.
> 
> View attachment 55790



Funny thing is people say they are good or better, especially on the FB pages.

Not sure what Prestige's you are talking about as all Prestige's from around 2012 onwards all have Dimarzio's and locking tuners except the trem versions which have normal gotoh tuners, which are still fine anyway. The IBZ pups were phased out years ago.

I think people confuse specs for value, now hear me out here. An 11pc neck for example isn't going to cost Ibanez say $500 a guitar make, once they have CNC and machinery setup the cost of the wood and labour, especially from an indo factory, would be surprising minimal per guitar, the only reason they don't offer them on Prestige's is because of how they have marketed the Premiums. They could very easily offer 11pc necks on prestige's say for around $500 extra per guitar but they wont, they would charge $1500 more and make it a limited run or some BS. In the past when they have done "fancy" woods on J Customs they have been very $$$ just because J Custom, its like any higher end guitar, they offer something different, whether it be woods or pickups and the price goes up non lineally to the cost of the specs. You only have to look at what they have done with the new iron labels. They basically put the full retail price of the BKP's on top of the RRP and then some.

On the premiums, there is probably an extra $250 in pups and tuners and $100 in wood over a normal Premium, yet they will retail for a good 7-800 more then a RG970 or similar. Poplar for example is dirt cheap and probably costs them about $40 or less to make a guitar with a poplar burl top. Even the Rg6's with the supposed curly maples tops look sup standard and bland from what I have seen, yet they are charging a lot for them. 



Rawkmann said:


> The Premiums I've played have generally been extremely nice guitars with no glaringly bad flaws, I'd definitely consider gettting one in the future. Like You said it's nice to be able to get those kinds of options in a well built guitar at that price point. Yours looks awesome btw!



From what I have seen its the polar opposite. Every single one I have seen has felt and played cheap and had very obvious issues. If they actually just spent a few hours more on each guitar getting the finer details tight they would be bang on for the money. Everything I have seen from the last 4-5 years of premiums shows they still make the same mistakes on the guitars, its like they can't keep up with the demand or something and just slap them together.


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## purpledc (Aug 28, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> Funny thing is people say they are good or better, especially on the FB pages.
> 
> Not sure what Prestige's you are talking about as all Prestige's from around 2012 onwards all have Dimarzio's and locking tuners except the trem versions which have normal gotoh tuners, which are still fine anyway. The IBZ pups were phased out years ago.
> 
> ...




Value for me has nothing to do with what the raw materials cost. Complaining about companies charging a premium for materials that technically don't cost more is the equivalent of complaining that water is wet. Value for me is based on what I can actually buy and what the going rate is for similar options from other companies. And since you don't see many guitars being made with these kinds of specs anywhere near this price range that to me makes the guitar a value based product. I like the woods used in the neck. I like the ridiculous unnecessary amount of laminations they used. I like that the guitar while being a poplar top is still in my case highly figured and not a veneer which was important to me. I also like that it has locking tuners with a trem. For me its about not having to wrap windings and the speed of string changes.

Also you have to remember that its not just the actual raw costs of a material but also the ease of working that material. Burled woods need more work. Wenge is a bitch to work with and stainless steel frets are also more difficult than nickel silver. This ads to the overall cost. Any additional step that needs to be introduced into a mass produced guitar cant be looked at by the individual cost per guitar but rather how that minimal cost multiplies over the number of guitars they are going to produce. I also don't understand your figures. You say the premiums have $350 more in upgrades over the first premiums and complain that they retail for $700 more. I simply cant understand what your complaint is. All companies that offer tangible goods do so to make money. To me its just more water is wet stuff. IMHO if you sit and analyze all your purchases by what they cost to actually make of course you will get disgusted with everything you buy. I try to look at what the item offers at its given price and then I compare it to what is being offered by the competition and the prices they offer and that is how I determine value. Which in this case I don't know of another company that gives me what the RG1070PBZ gives me. And I got a heavy discount on mine for minimal flaws that I could probably have spotted on a plethora of other brands. So maybe value means something different to all of us.


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## Nicki (Aug 28, 2017)

Sometimes the quality of the line also depended on the years. For example, my 2006/2007 Indonesia-made Ibanez RG320FM out punches many higher end models from 2-3 model years later. Even to this day, people who pick it up and play it ask one of two things - "Is this a Prestige?" or "How is this not a Prestige?". CanuckBrian's 1990ish RG770 is the same way. It feels and plays like a prestige, but it's just a standard.

At the end of the day, what it's going to come down to is how YOU feel about the guitar. If you just magically gel with the guitar then it will be better than anything else you put in your hands. Finding the right balance between build quality and perceived quality can be tricky, but that's why you need to be picky when it comes to buying a guitar. Try it before you buy it. If it just don't feel like a natural extension of you, then it just isn't worth owning.


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## eightsixboy (Aug 29, 2017)

purpledc said:


> Value for me has nothing to do with what the raw materials cost. Complaining about companies charging a premium for materials that technically don't cost more is the equivalent of complaining that water is wet. Value for me is based on what I can actually buy and what the going rate is for similar options from other companies. And since you don't see many guitars being made with these kinds of specs anywhere near this price range that to me makes the guitar a value based product. I like the woods used in the neck. I like the ridiculous unnecessary amount of lamination they used. I like that the guitar while being a poplar top is still in my case highly figured and not a veneer which was important to me. I also like that it has locking tuners with a trem. For me its about not having to wrap windings and the speed of string changes.
> 
> Also you have to remember that its not just the actual raw costs of a material but also the ease of working that material. Burled woods need more work. Wenge is a bitch to work with and stainless steel frets are also more difficult than nickel silver. This ads to the overall cost. Any additional step that needs to be introduced into a mass produced guitar cant be looked at by the individual cost per guitar but rather how that minimal cost multiplies over the number of guitars they are going to produce. I also don't understand your figures. You say the premiums have $350 more in upgrades over the first premiums and complain that they retail for $700 more. I simply cant understand what your complaint is. All companies that offer tangible goods do so to make money. To me its just more water is wet stuff. IMHO if you sit and analyze all your purchases by what they cost to actually make of course you will get disgusted with everything you buy. I try to look at what the item offers at its given price and then I compare it to what is being offered by the competition and the prices they offer and that is how I determine value. Which in this case I don't know of another company that gives me what the RG1070PBZ gives me. And I got a heavy discount on mine for minimal flaws that I could probably have spotted on a plethora of other brands. So maybe value means something different to all of us.



Well you should be concerned about what it costs them to make something because they shouldn't be taking the piss like they have with the premium range. Based on your logic, for arguments sake Ibanez were the only ones doing BKP in say a basic RG370, and it was 1.5k, you'd see value in that because no one else is offering it? 

Companies shouldn't be playing consumers for fools, you only have to look at how they have priced the Premium Jem's and the new Iron Label's to see they are betting on the people who don't know better to buy them. No one in there right mind would take a Indo jem over the new Prestige's, hell even some J Customs are only around $500 more then the Premium Jems.

Also what do you mean by "ridiculous unnecessary amount of lamination"? They put a ridiculous amount of clear on to hide defects and to make them easier to sand and buff to a high shine, it cuts down on amount of coats and sanding in between, there is a reason higher end guitars with proper tops are not a flat finish, so if you do believe in any tonal benefit to having a Poplar or Maple top then having it under a thick layer of clear is completely pointless other then how it looks. And that really is the whole point of the premiums, looks. They play like a regular sub $800 Indo guitars with glitz and glam of some $200 Dimarzio's and $100 locking tuners, something you yourself can ad to any guitar for minimal fuss. 

The SS medium (they are not jumbo by a long shot) frets are really the only value item on the whole guitar, I have yet to see one done as well or close to the standards of Korean Schecters etc. Which is another story. 

All the 2017 premiums with SS I have played that had what you would call "moderate" actions "prob 1.5-1.6mm high e and minimal to no neck relief, had some noticeable buzz, some were pretty bad. So really then whats the point? If they are going to do SS frets they have to be spot on, you should to be able to get 1.2-1.4mm actions out of these no problem. 

End of the day they charge a premium for the supposed "value" and don't deliver, for the same $$$ or in some cases less, I'd rather get a Prestige, have better resale value and a better case to boot.


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## narad (Aug 29, 2017)

I'd pay extra for them to not put juggernauts in the guitars...


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## Musiscience (Aug 29, 2017)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> To my knowledge-
> 
> Then there's LACS and Sugi builds but those are more niche. If you're buying one of those you probably know what you're looking for already. Aren't they also opening up a new Japan-based semi-custom shop as well? They previewed like a white...RGD I want to say?



I think it's called the Ibanez Guitar Development Center and has been open for research purposes since 2008.

I just took another look at the white RG they released in 2017 (IGDC) and it seems they are debuting a new neck joint. The new prototype that the polyphia guys are playing has a similar heel and carve. Could it be that these new Suhr looking Ibanez will also be built in a semi-custom manner in this factory / center? They also have a similar logo with no prestige mention on the front... NAMM will sure be interesting this year.


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## tedtan (Aug 29, 2017)

Nicki said:


> CanuckBrian's 1990ish RG770 is the same way. It feels and plays like a prestige, but it's just a standard.



Ibanez didn't start using the Prestige branding until 1996 and weren't really using it to the same extent they are today until after 2000. Those RG770s and other Fujigen built Ibanez guitars are Prestige quality instruments built by the same maker as the Prestige line before Ibanez used the Prestige branding.


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## purpledc (Aug 29, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> Well you should be concerned about what it costs them to make something because they shouldn't be taking the piss like they have with the premium range. Based on your logic, for arguments sake Ibanez were the only ones doing BKP in say a basic RG370, and it was 1.5k, you'd see value in that because no one else is offering it?
> 
> Companies shouldn't be playing consumers for fools, you only have to look at how they have priced the Premium Jem's and the new Iron Label's to see they are betting on the people who don't know better to buy them. No one in there right mind would take a Indo jem over the new Prestige's, hell even some J Customs are only around $500 more then the Premium Jems.
> 
> ...




Ok, so you don't understand the difference between a set of aftermarket pickups that can be purchased by anyone anywhere and a neck that is an 11 piece laminate of exotic woods that simply are not offered by 99% of all production companies? Solid tops that are not offered by any other production company in this price range. Its all veneers. You are comparing something anyone can do and is grossly overcharged for and options that simply cant currently be attained period at this price range. And while the finish isn't perfect its on par with the majority of production guitars. IMHO the prestige series is in the upper tier of what you can even get in a production guitar. Its not the standard most companies can live up to. Regardless, I am not taking a prestige over a guitar that I like better that has the options I want and at a price I am comfortable with. . These guitars aren't for everyone. But they are great for me and many others. I don't think people like me are defective in our thinking. We just have different motives for our purchase. Bottom line I'm just not going to buy a guitar that I don't like just because its technically better. Just like if a guy wants a $999 Gibson. IMHO it wont play or look as good as a similarly price schecter. But a better guitar is only better if the person buying it likes it. 

And as far as tonewoods for me the laminated neck is for looks and for stability. I was being sarcastic when I said a ridiculous amount of 11 laminations. Because for me if I limited my guitar purchases to simple "needs" life would be boring. I want 11 pieces in my neck simply because I like the way it looks. Its exotic. As far as the effect on tone? I don't believe much in the tonewood debate. I simply don't care. I just want what I want and buy what I like. And I again wont buy a guitar I don't like the specs for whatever reasons I have just because it has better fit and finish. And I like solid tops simply because I find veneers to be cheezy and cheap. I dong believe for one second that 1/4" of any wood makes a difference in sound. I think some guitars can sound good and some can sound bad regardless of the wood used. I have no issue with buzz nor does my guitar have high action. I also like the super light semi soft/hard case. And I don't feel the finish is thick on this guitar at all. It certainly isn't as bad as a schecter hellraiser that almost looks like its dipped.


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## eightsixboy (Aug 29, 2017)

purpledc said:


> Ok, so you don't understand the difference between a set of aftermarket pickups that can be purchased by anyone anywhere and a neck that is an 11 piece laminate of exotic woods that simply are not offered by 99% of all production companies? Solid tops that are not offered by any other production company in this price range. Its all veneers. You are comparing something anyone can do and is grossly overcharged for and options that simply cant currently be attained period at this price range. And while the finish isn't perfect its on par with the majority of production guitars. IMHO the prestige series is in the upper tier of what you can even get in a production guitar. Its not the standard most companies can live up to. Regardless, I am not taking a prestige over a guitar that I like better that has the options I want and at a price I am comfortable with. . These guitars aren't for everyone. But they are great for me and many others. I don't think people like me are defective in our thinking. We just have different motives for our purchase. Bottom line I'm just not going to buy a guitar that I don't like just because its technically better. Just like if a guy wants a $999 Gibson. IMHO it wont play or look as good as a similarly price schecter. But a better guitar is only better if the person buying it likes it.
> 
> And as far as tonewoods for me the laminated neck is for looks and for stability. I was being sarcastic when I said a ridiculous amount of 11 laminations. Because for me if I limited my guitar purchases to simple "needs" life would be boring. I want 11 pieces in my neck simply because I like the way it looks. Its exotic. As far as the effect on tone? I don't believe much in the tonewood debate. I simply don't care. I just want what I want and buy what I like. And I again wont buy a guitar I don't like the specs for whatever reasons I have just because it has better fit and finish. And I like solid tops simply because I find veneers to be cheezy and cheap. I dong believe for one second that 1/4" of any wood makes a difference in sound. I think some guitars can sound good and some can sound bad regardless of the wood used. I have no issue with buzz nor does my guitar have high action. I also like the super light semi soft/hard case. And I don't feel the finish is thick on this guitar at all. It certainly isn't as bad as a schecter hellraiser that almost looks like its dipped.



Well your the one that was going one about the pickups and locking tuners in the first place sooo....?

"And I again wont buy a guitar I don't like the specs for whatever reasons I have just because it has better fit and finish".

I'm sorry but that's just crazy, how well its put together doesn't matter to you?

"And I like solid tops simply because I find veneers to be cheezy and cheap, I dong believe for one second that 1/4" of any wood makes a difference in sound."

So then it doesn't matter either way then, if anything adding a 7mm poplar top is the thing that looks cheap, they may as well have used cork, which is basically is anyway.

"IMHO the prestige series is in the upper tier of what you can even get in a production guitar"

Exactly why the Premiums should not be priced higher or at the same level as the Prestige's.

"I don't think people like me are defective in our thinking"

No there is nothing wrong with wanting certain specs and features, I just think they have to deliver on the price and features if they are going to make them in Indonesia where it is costing them next to nothing to make them.


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## purpledc (Aug 29, 2017)

I'm getting the feeling you are being obtuse on purpose. I honestly cant see a reason why you are not getting this yet. Ok, yes tuning machines and pickups do add to the cost of an instrument. But your example of tossing BKP's into a basic RG and charging $1500 for it is off the mark. WAYY off. In that situation your ONLY upgrade is the pickups. That would be an example of overpaying. Not value. The premium parts come into play as one of many upgrades in the case of the premium guitars. You may not care about them but that doesn't mean others shouldn't.

And I really couldn't have spelled out my point about build quality any clearer but Ill give it one more shot. Say you have a Gibson les paul. And then you have a PRS . Both guitars in this theoretical scenario are priced equally. Its been my experience that between the two brands the PRS is likely to have less flaws if any are to occur. While its also been my experience that damn near all gibsons have some type of fit and finish issue. Now if a customer wants a les paul is he supposed to get the PRS instead simply because it is technically a better made guitar with less flaws for the same price? Why if he will not enjoy it as much.

You seem to be wanting to make it seem like all premium models are garbage. I completely disagree with you. Because if you didn't believe that you would understand that just because a guitar has lesser quality than a prestige it doesn't mean its bad quality. And that was the point that seemed to go over your head. That IMO prestige guitars are of a fit and finish level that not many other guitar companies can achieve. PRS is one of them but they are much more expensive. So for me its not about getting the absolute best fit and finish for my money. Its about getting as many options I want within my price range while the instrument retains a quality level I find acceptable. In other words if the premium line has the options I want and I love the way the guitar plays and sounds and has everything I want and more then I can sacrifice a little polish. Especially if the higher end guitars are not what I
want. I don't know why you are struggling with that. For me having a technically superior build is worthless if I don't like the guitar to begin with. 

And yes having a thicker top does matter. Because its what I want. I don't like the use of veneers in an instrument. That is my preference and you don't have to agree with me for that to be a valid want of mine. That seems to be what you are struggling with. Anyone who doesn't want the same things as you must just have defective thinking. You want to pick and choose what makes sense but you wont acknowledge that it only applies to you and people who think like you. You act as if every reason for wanting a feature on a guitar has to be directly related to the tone. That nothing cosmetic or aesthetic can have any merit on raising the price. Good luck with that as it is pretty much the way every tangible good in the existence of tangible goods works. People want things for all sorts of irrational reasons. And I find the times I end up selling a guitar is when I settle for something I don't want. 

And please do everyone in the world a favor and explain to me why you thing a piece of poplar is the same thing as cork. And please be specific I don't want to miss any golden nuggets of wisdom there. And again for the hundredth time the premiums are priced at what they are because they offer MORE in features than what can currently be had in a prestige. When comparing prices you have to compare specs as well not just the final execution of the materials but the actual materials themselves. One guitar is over a grand because its basic but perfect. The other is over a thousand because it has many other features (that in any other universe but yours cost extra) while not attaining the finesse of a prestige. But that is also why a premium is $1299 and not $4999. News flash. ALL instruments are expensive if you factor in the cost of raw materials and the cost of production. Water is wet.


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## eightsixboy (Aug 31, 2017)

"I'm getting the feeling you are being obtuse on purpose. I honestly cant see a reason why you are not getting this yet. Ok, yes tuning machines and pickups do add to the cost of an instrument. But your example of tossing BKP's into a basic RG and charging $1500 for it is off the mark. WAYY off. In that situation your ONLY upgrade is the pickups. That would be an example of overpaying. Not value. The premium parts come into play as one of many upgrades in the case of the premium guitars. You may not care about them but that doesn't mean others shouldn't."

Maybe you’re not getting it because you’re the obtuse one?

But really not getting what exactly? That you over payed for something because you liked the look of it and are trying to justify it by making up stuff? 

No one is disputing that you can buy whatever you want if you like it, that doesn’t mean its good value. "Value" or the price of goods provided by a manufacture is not based on opinions, maybe you should look it up. - Inset analogy water is wet- to look smart.

The example of the BKP in a basic RG is not WAYY off, it’s basically the new Iron label series. Case in point

https://www.kosmic.com.au/ibanez-rg...MI-Mjh26KA1gIVyQQqCh22GAk4EAQYAiABEgIriPD_BwE


https://www.kosmic.com.au/ibanez-rgaix6fm-tgf-electric-guitar


Basically the same guitar but RRP is $700 difference due to the BKP. That is complete BS. Oh wait but what if in my opinion its worth it, even though I know the pups are only $500 at full RRP, does that now make it ok?


The neck woods, pups and SS frets do not equate to the inflated RRP price of the guitars that is fact. Ask anyone who builds guitars and anyone who that has an idea of what things cost. You seem to glaze over the fact that the SS are not done that well and neither are the tops. This just shows that they are rushed and built to time and cost restraints, like all Indonesian guitars, this all equates to lower costs and a cheap guitar. Churn and burn.

Also you keep saying, no one else makes them at this price point. Doesn't that just show how they have monopolised that specific market? Just because they are the first and only ones making something at that price point doesn't make it good value. You don't think Schecter, Jackon or other manufactures who have indo or Korean plants in the next few years won’t do similar and probably cheaper? 

"And I really couldn't have spelled out my point about build quality any clearer but Ill give it one more shot. Say you have a Gibson les paul. And then you have a PRS . Both guitars in this theoretical scenario are priced equally. Its been my experience that between the two brands the PRS is likely to have less flaws if any are to occur. While its also been my experience that damn near all gibsons have some type of fit and finish issue. Now if a customer wants a les paul is he supposed to get the PRS instead simply because it is technically a better made guitar with less flaws for the same price? Why if he will not enjoy it as much."

Because if said customer still pays that price with flaws and all for the Gibson then he would indeed be a fool. The same logic applies. Poor workmanship should equal less price. This is why you see Gibsons at 50% of RRP all the time. They have stupidly high mark ups on them and the quality is crap. 

You seem to be basing a lot of you perception of value on what something looks like and/or makes you happy vs the actually quality of the guitar. I reckon 9/10 people on here would take the guitar that is built and plays better over the one that "looks" better if they were a similar price. 

"You seem to be wanting to make it seem like all premium models are garbage. I completely disagree with you. Because if you didn't believe that you would understand that just because a guitar has lesser quality than a prestige it doesn't mean its bad quality. And that was the point that seemed to go over your head. That IMO prestige guitars are of a fit and finish level that not many other guitar companies can achieve. PRS is one of them but they are much more expensive. So for me its not about getting the absolute best fit and finish for my money. Its about getting as many options I want within my price range while the instrument retains a quality level I find acceptable. In other words if the premium line has the options I want and I love the way the guitar plays and sounds and has everything I want and more then I can sacrifice a little polish. Especially if the higher end guitars are not what I want. I don't know why you are struggling with that. For me having a technically superior build is worthless if I don't like the guitar to begin with."

Well maybe because they generally are for the money. I'm just speaking from experience, I have imported and owned to many Premiums that have looked nice but ended up playing like ass, well in fact they all have.

How does PRS even remotely relate to what we are discussing/arguing about? PRS are 2-3 times more expensive then Prestige’s and are of similar high end standards to J Customs or Suhr’s, completely different ball game and price bracket. 

Prestige quality is not something other companies cannot achieve, they are somewhat considered the benchmark for that price range. Many other makers surpass the Prestige’s, just look at the new Schecters and really anything mid to high end made in Korea. I played the sun valley shredder and its better than my 657 in terms of fretwork and a few other little things, and its $1000 cheaper. 

“just because a guitar has lesser quality than a prestige it doesn't mean its bad quality"

Well yes that would mean it’s of worse quality if the price point is the same. You forget to that the Prestige also packed full of features. That’s the point. The cost to manufacture the prestige is high, the standard is higher, the hardware and wood is better, the labour cost is much much higher, yet they are the same price. You can blab on about 11pc necks and SS frets all you want but the cost just does not stack up on the premiums. 

Also I didn't even dispute you wanting or liking the guitar for the specs, I simply said they need to deliver on the quality if they want to price them at prestige price points, which so far they have failed.


"And yes having a thicker top does matter. Because its what I want. I don't like the use of veneers in an instrument. That is my preference and you don't have to agree with me for that to be a valid want of mine. That seems to be what you are struggling with. Anyone who doesn't want the same things as you must just have defective thinking. You want to pick and choose what makes sense but you wont acknowledge that it only applies to you and people who think like you. You act as if every reason for wanting a feature on a guitar has to be directly related to the tone. That nothing cosmetic or aesthetic can have any merit on raising the price. Good luck with that as it is pretty much the way every tangible good in the existence of tangible goods works. People want things for all sorts of irrational reasons. And I find the times I end up selling a guitar is when I settle for something I don't want. "


Maybe because you are in the minority here? Who buys a guitar saying I want a thick top, oh but not because I believe in tone woods but just because it looks good? You are placing that much importance of the looks of a top that you can only tell is a top by looking at it from the side, it’s not like anyone can actually tell unless they have the guitar in their hands, even the older premiums looked like somewhat real tops unless you actually had a proper look. They have also been masking over and painting over the tops anyways on the new premiums.


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## eightsixboy (Aug 31, 2017)

"And please do everyone in the world a favor and explain to me why you thing a piece of poplar is the same thing as cork. And please be specific I don't want to miss any golden nuggets of wisdom there. And again for the hundredth time the premiums are priced at what they are because they offer MORE in features than what can currently be had in a prestige. When comparing prices you have to compare specs as well not just the final execution of the materials but the actual materials themselves. One guitar is over a grand because its basic but perfect. The other is over a thousand because it has many other features (that in any other universe but yours cost extra) while not attaining the finesse of a prestige. But that is also why a premium is $1299 and not $4999. News flash. ALL instruments are expensive if you factor in the cost of raw materials and the cost of production. Water is wet."

Wow someone's really getting their nickers in a twist aren't they?

Poplar burl is basically a diseased wood and once dried it has the consistency of cork, it’s basically like a dried up sponge. Even the new prestige’s with poplar burls are crap, I know because I had one and sent it back because it was cheap. Was that guitar good value? I bet even you would say no. 

"But that is also why a premium is $1299 and not $4999. News flash. ALL instruments are expensive if you factor in the cost of raw materials and the cost of production. Water is wet."

And no the Premiums are not priced where they are because “they offer MORE in features than what can currently be had in a prestige”. The Premiums in question are priced the way they are purely to capitalize on the monopolised section of the market. It’s got absolutely nothing to do with bringing features at a lower cost which is what the premium range was meant to be all about. If they were priced according to similar profit margins seen on Prestige’s and cheaper indo series they would be substantially cheaper, which is exactly where they should be priced. 

“Complaining about companies charging a premium for materials that technically don't cost more is the equivalent of complaining that water is wet”

Also I don’t think you understand what you are saying when using “water is wet” analogy, how are those two related? 

Companies overcharging for materials or workmanship at a premium that does not deliver is not a common or standard practice and not something they should be charging exorbitantly for. The woods in question are not some super rare high end mega $$$ woods and neither is the workmanship.

“When comparing prices you have to compare specs as well not just the final execution of the materials but the actual materials themselves.” 

Ok lets try and look at it from your point of view for a second. Who else makes 11pc necks? Mayones? Custom guitars? Neither of which are even remotely fair comparisons. You can’t compare a 5k+ guitar which probably has 10x the hours put into it vs an indo mayones wanna be, if you value price over craftsmanship of course the Ibanez wins. Many features does not equal a quality guitar, quality over quantity always.


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## marcwormjim (Aug 31, 2017)

Something tells me Jeffbro is afoot...


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## purpledc (Sep 1, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> "And please do everyone in the world a favor and explain to me why you thing a piece of poplar is the same thing as cork. And please be specific I don't want to miss any golden nuggets of wisdom there. And again for the hundredth time the premiums are priced at what they are because they offer MORE in features than what can currently be had in a prestige. When comparing prices you have to compare specs as well not just the final execution of the materials but the actual materials themselves. One guitar is over a grand because its basic but perfect. The other is over a thousand because it has many other features (that in any other universe but yours cost extra) while not attaining the finesse of a prestige. But that is also why a premium is $1299 and not $4999. News flash. ALL instruments are expensive if you factor in the cost of raw materials and the cost of production. Water is wet."
> 
> Wow someone's really getting their nickers in a twist aren't they?
> 
> ...



At this point you are free to believe whatever it is you want to believe. Your last two posts are filled with so much nonsense I honestly don't care to pick it apart anymore. If you are going to accuse me of making shit up for the only purpose of arguing with someone on the internet that is when I bow out. You will create any scenario in your head in which you don't have to admit others may buy things with different motives than you. And after awhile it just gets tiring chasing goal posts. Id rather go play the guitar I am perfectly happy with.


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## Nicki (Sep 1, 2017)

purpledc said:


> Regardless, I am not taking a prestige over a guitar that I like better that has the options I want and at a price I am comfortable with. . These guitars aren't for everyone.



This is what I was talking about with perceived quality. A guitar that feels good in the hands is going to be the one that keeps you up at night if you didn't buy it. There's probably someone out there who would pick up a guitar that looks like swiss cheese, plays it and just jives with it... Oh wait....













eightsixboy said:


> I'm sorry but that's just crazy, how well its put together doesn't matter to you?



Not if the perceived quality exceeds the build quality. Again, it's all about how it feels in the person's hands. If the guitar just doesn't work with the person playing it, then it just doesn't work. Some people enjoy fighting with their instrument to make sound.



purpledc said:


> You seem to be wanting to make it seem like all premium models are garbage.



To be fair, most are. In the 6 or 7 years they've been on the market, the first generation premiums have only ever been worthy of consideration. The build quality and finish of those RGs were put to a much higher standard than they are now. They played excellently and you can find many NGD threads around that time in these forums showcasing the craftsmenship of those gen 1s (which you really should do because the fretwork is outstanding). Since then, the build quality has gone down, as has the playability, while the price has gone up without justification. This is not just my perceived quality, but the general consensus in our community. This is why you don't see as many NGDs about them anymore. There are better guitars out there now for the money, both new and used.



purpledc said:


> For me having a technically superior build is worthless if I don't like the guitar to begin with.



Valid point. Once again, it's about perceived quality.



purpledc said:


> And yes having a thicker top does matter. Because its what I want.



But since you don't believe in the the tonal arguments of different woods, you are arguing aesthetics which a veneer, binding and a proper finish accomplishes the same end and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Example? Ibanez SZR720. There are in fact functional reasons why you would want a thicker top vs a veneer. For example, if you had a mahogany base and a 1/4" wenge top, your guitar would be significantly lighter than an all mahogany body. Speaking from experience here. And as far as tonal characteristics are concerned (even though I know you don't care), the mahogany is a bass-ier wood so you'd get resonating low end but a wenge top would help higher notes cut through in a live setting.





eightsixboy said:


> But really not getting what exactly? That you over payed for something because you liked the look of it and are trying to justify it by making up stuff?



I think his point is that he feels Ibanez Prestige A doesn't feel good in his hands, he'd be overpaying, but if Ibanez Prestige B feels good, it's good value.



eightsixboy said:


> The example of the BKP in a basic RG is not WAYY off, it’s basically the new Iron label series.



Also, in my opinion on par of crappage as recent premiums and have always been that way. But that's just me, others on this forum like them, just like others on this forum like the older chunky necks of Schecters... How many times do I have to say this? PERCEIVED QUALITY!





eightsixboy said:


> ...like all Indonesian guitars, this all equates to lower costs and a cheap guitar. Churn and burn.



This wasn't always the case. When Ibanez revamped the RG line years back and sent production to Indonesia, the plant took pride in the work and it showed in the guitars that left the factory. If you played one from back then, you'd agree. These days? Yeah... I can't argue with your assessment.



eightsixboy said:


> Also you keep saying, no one else makes them at this price point. Doesn't that just show how they have monopolised that specific market?



It hasn't been monopolized. Schecter, Jackson, Sterling (EBMM), Godin, G&L (I think), Chapman, Charvel and so on. They all have models that are within the same price point that compete directly with Ibanez's Premium and Prestige lines.



eightsixboy said:


> I reckon 9/10 people on here would take the guitar that is built and plays better over the one that "looks" better if they were a similar price.



You are both arguing the EXACT same point here. See first quote.




eightsixboy said:


> And no the Premiums are not priced where they are because “they offer MORE in features than what can currently be had in a prestige”. The Premiums in question are priced the way they are purely to capitalize on the monopolised section of the market.



Once again, there's no monopoly in that segment. Traditionally, when you walk into a music store, you see three main brands. Fender, Gibson and Ibanez. Of the three, Ibanez always sells more because of the lower price points. It's mostly moms and dads buying GIOs for their kids for $200 or less. Then when the kid wants a more expensive instrument, their familiarity with the Ibanez brand makes them look at higher up models leading to the first tier above standard which is the premium. It's the fact that the better brands like Jackson, Godin, Charvel and Schecter aren't available or are not prominently displayed on every shops' wall of guitars that the premiums continue to sell despite their decline in overall usability. They sell and they sell well because that's what's being sold. That's why they're priced the way they are. When you have a product that is in demand, you get to charge what you want. Sad truth about retail but such is the way it goes. Hopefully Schecter's SGR line shakes the status quo and puts alternatives into the youngins' hands.



eightsixboy said:


> Companies overcharging for materials or workmanship at a premium that does not deliver is not a common or standard practice and not something they should be charging exorbitantly for.


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## purpledc (Sep 2, 2017)

Nicki said:


> This is what I was talking about with perceived quality. A guitar that feels good in the hands is going to be the one that keeps you up at night if you didn't buy it. There's probably someone out there who would pick up a guitar that looks like swiss cheese, plays it and just jives with it... Oh wait....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually really like how you broke that down and presented your argument. I think the only thing I can really say is that my experience with the premiums is limited to the original run of quilted guitars and the RG1070PBZ I own. I have seen pics of guitars with issues but mine doesn't have a lot of the issues I have seen other have. The only thing that I was actually disappointed with was an area on the back of the neck. I did find a couple other areas I wasn't too sure about but most of it was either something I easily corrected (excess glue on the fret board) or it was not really a problem like I thought (what appeared to be a missing chip was not and actually is perfect once I removed the neck. The area on the neck that disappointed me was a rather large set of smaller to medium sized voids in the wood grain. Now wenge is known for these anomalies. But these could be felt and seen.

So my solution? I ripped the neck off sanded the whole back of the neck to a 600g finish. I then filled all the voids with a black epoxy putty. Leveled that out with another touch of 600g and then did a linseed oil and wax finish. Which I understand is a quite common mod for Ibanez of all quality tiers. And now after cleaning the rest of the guitar up and doing the neck its just the perfect guitar for me. It has something about it that made it my perfect guitar.

I was able to look past some flaws that I have all ready corrected and now its my number one. It probably helps I got $300 off for the issues I did find. Who knows, If I were to see a larger sample size of these guitars my impression of them as a whole might change. But it wont change how I feel about my actual guitar.

As for the tonewood thing. I want a thicker top because I grew up in a time period when flame tops were caps. Veneers for me has always been a corner cutting option to provide the beauty of a flame top but it is paper thin. And when paired with a natural edge binding effect I think it looks cheezy. You can tell its a thin veneer. And you can tell the figuring doesn't carry into the natural binding edge. To me that looks stupid and its trying to be something its not. For me its the equivalent of fake carbon fiber. Which also bugs me in a $3000+ music man majesty. IMHO they could do an actual C/F inlay on something like that. 

The reason I say its not about the tone? that's because I think nearly everything else you could do to a guitar will have a larger impact on the tone than the actual wood. And even though general guidelines for maple say its a brite wood and mahogany is a warmer wood I have found its not a science. And sometimes depending on how the guitar is constructed the top will have a minimal impact on tone. Especially if you are using a floating trem set to float. The posts for the trem don't even touch the top wood. And being a metal player?

I just don't think with the amount of gain I play with it matters all that much. But I still want a full thickness top because I view it as the proper way to utilize figured woods. If its a veneer I honestly would rather not have it and would prefer a solid color or a trans finish over the body wood. But that's just me. So technically yes its about aesthetics. But if we limited out guitars purchases to just needs and didn't consider the aesthetics of a guitar we would all be playing the same thing. Looks of a guitar are important to me. The way an instrument looks has an effect on my desire to play it. And when I see veneers I don't want anything to do with it. I have two guitars with veneers right now. And honestly its the only thing about those guitars I absolutely hate.


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## Nicki (Sep 2, 2017)

purpledc said:


> I just don't think with the amount of gain I play with it matters all that much.



I think this is the only sentence I actually want to counterpoint.

If you're playing with so much gain that the tones from the woods arent present, dial back the gain. There isn't a gain knob on my amp (Trirec) that passes 1 o-clock (aka 6), and that's only on channel 2. If you're not getting the tone you want with the gain at 6, it's the EQ you need to fiddle with and not the gain. You could try turning the channel volume down and the master up. If you have a tube amp, your preamp doesn't need to be driven that hard to produce a good metal tone.


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## purpledc (Sep 2, 2017)

Nicki said:


> I think this is the only sentence I actually want to counterpoint.
> 
> If you're playing with so much gain that the tones from the woods arent present, dial back the gain. There isn't a gain knob on my amp (Trirec) that passes 1 o-clock (aka 6), and that's only on channel 2. If you're not getting the tone you want with the gain at 6, it's the EQ you need to fiddle with and not the gain. You could try turning the channel volume down and the master up. If you have a tube amp, your preamp doesn't need to be driven that hard to produce a good metal tone.



Yeah, lots of those tricks don't apply. I have a kemper. The master volume really is just a output leveling device from what I understand on those units to balance the output volume of each patch. Either way I didn't mean to imply that I use too much distortion. Ive been playing a long time. I should be way better than I am on the technical side for how long I have been playing. But I have heard all the arguments on most guitar issues. I think at this stage in the game I'm in old fart stuck in his ways of doing things stage of life. Ive been playing since 88. So I have heard all the arguments for this and that. I find I am happiest when I just trust my ears. Either way I still think when playing metal and using distortion that the construction method of the guitar, the parts used on the guitar such as the bridge and pickups have a much larger tonal impact than the wood itself. Put it this way, Wood for me is not a science. The reason I say that is I ordered a custom Carvin before they started the kiesel name up. It was a guitar with black limba body, quilted maple cap and a five piece maple walnut neck. Now having had these woods before in other guitars I would have thought this thing would have sounded amazing. Overall it was the worst playing and sounding guitar I have ever owned. Just dead and lifeless. Heavier than 10 foot turd encased in concrete. But was also the most beautiful and well made guitars I ever had. But that was the guitar that changed my views on what I thought made a good guitar.


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## eightsixboy (Sep 5, 2017)

Nicki said:


> This is what I was talking about with perceived quality. A guitar that feels good in the hands is going to be the one that keeps you up at night if you didn't buy it. There's probably someone out there who would pick up a guitar that looks like swiss cheese, plays it and just jives with it... Oh wait....



We are talking about value here, not personal feelings towards something based on looks, feel or perception. Value = RRP, this is basic economics. We are talking about a Brand new guitar with a RRP set by the manufacturer, none of which is influenced in the slightest by mine, pupledc's or anyone's personal opinion. This is my whole point all along. Trying to argue that he seeing value in something regardless of the actual $$$, the price to manufacture and the obvious inflated mark-up is irrelevant, my whole point is they are over priced for what they are, like any premium. 

Personal opinion does is no way affect a brand new guitars selling price or value, value is not quantifiable in feelings or opinion, imagine if that were the case.

He was trying to use Gibson as an analogy, basically sums up my point to a tee. Perfect example of a company making sub par guitars at hugely inflated prices. Why do people buy them? Because A. They don't know better B. Because Gibson name. Someone liking the look or feel of a Gibson is irrelevant to the fact that they are soooooo heavily marked up and the actual build of the guitar is worse then most indo guitars.



Nicki said:


> Not if the perceived quality exceeds the build quality. Again, it's all about how it feels in the person's hands. If the guitar just doesn't work with the person playing it, then it just doesn't work. Some people enjoy fighting with their instrument to make sound.



Yes but that's still personal opinion which is not reflective of the price of the guitar or the cost to build it, my whole argument is they are not one and the same. Value on a guitar, or any brand new item has nothing to do with personal opinions, cost to build + markup + set rrp = value of the guitar.

I'm not sure where the parallel between quality and Premiums relate either. Having a Poplar top on a Basswood body doesn't not = quality. Cheap top + cheap body wood.



Nicki said:


> To be fair, most are. In the 6 or 7 years they've been on the market, the first generation premiums have only ever been worthy of consideration. The build quality and finish of those RGs were put to a much higher standard than they are now. They played excellently and you can find many NGD threads around that time in these forums showcasing the craftsmenship of those gen 1s (which you really should do because the fretwork is outstanding). Since then, the build quality has gone down, as has the playability, while the price has gone up without justification. This is not just my perceived quality, but the general consensus in our community. This is why you don't see as many NGDs about them anymore. There are better guitars out there now for the money, both new and used.



The first gen had problems too but the main difference is they were ALOT cheaper, even the ones with full wenge necks and fingerboards like some RG921 we a good 30-40% cheaper, or in direct cmparsion to the RG1070 in question, almost 1k cheaper RRP, in the last few years most premiums have gone up something crazy. 



Nicki said:


> But since you don't believe in the the tonal arguments of different woods, you are arguing aesthetics which a veneer, binding and a proper finish accomplishes the same end and you wouldn't be able to tell the difference. Example? Ibanez SZR720. There are in fact functional reasons why you would want a thicker top vs a veneer. For example, if you had a mahogany base and a 1/4" wenge top, your guitar would be significantly lighter than an all mahogany body. Speaking from experience here. And as far as tonal characteristics are concerned (even though I know you don't care), the mahogany is a bass-ier wood so you'd get resonating low end but a wenge top would help higher notes cut through in a live setting.



My argument was that on the early premiums, and even newer prestige's, you can't tell if they are a top or indeed a vaneer unless you have a proper look. People make that mistake all the time, "Wow look at that top" when its actually a vaneer. Wanting a top is fine, never said otherwise, I just simply said putting so much importance on a top that you can't actually tell is a proper top without close inspection is a bit silly if you don't buy into the whole tonewood thing. The RG6's and RG1070's I have seen so far have all had the lines of the top masked and painted over anyway, especially the RG6 which looked like a taped of natural binding, you had to actually look for the line in the paint to see where the top started. Great build quality there.



Nicki said:


> I think his point is that he feels Ibanez Prestige A doesn't feel good in his hands, he'd be overpaying, but if Ibanez Prestige B feels good, it's good value.



But feel is not quality, feel is a personal opinion. I don't like how Strat's feel, that doesn't make a 5k custom shop bad value or bad quality, and vise versa, I love Ibanez, doesn't mean the RG657 I just got is good value, in fact I know I overpayed for something which only has a vaneer, but i'm not trying to sugar coat it either.



Nicki said:


> Also, in my opinion on par of crappage as recent premiums and have always been that way. But that's just me, others on this forum like them, just like others on this forum like the older chunky necks of Schecters... How many times do I have to say this? PERCEIVED QUALITY!



Liking something is not a quantifiable measure of somethings quality, people tend to like the premiums as they offer something the Prestige's don't, which is perfectly fine, but being different is not a measure of quality.



Nicki said:


> This wasn't always the case. When Ibanez revamped the RG line years back and sent production to Indonesia, the plant took pride in the work and it showed in the guitars that left the factory. If you played one from back then, you'd agree. These days? Yeah... I can't argue with your assessment.



Exactly, I have a late 2000's indo and its fantastic, on par with any RG752 I have had, as soon as the premiums started you saw things take a dive, some premiums were pretty good, but most, especially RG920's, had a ton of issues.



Nicki said:


> It hasn't been monopolized. Schecter, Jackson, Sterling (EBMM), Godin, G&L (I think), Chapman, Charvel and so on. They all have models that are within the same price point that compete directly with Ibanez's Premium and Prestige lines.



But nothing with 11pc necks, and nothing with wenge and or puple heart etc. That was my point. They are literally the only ones making a cheaper indo guitar in that price range with the neck type, they could basically set the RRP to whatever they want and people would still buy them, because 11pc neck. 



Nicki said:


> You are both arguing the EXACT same point here. See first quote.



He is arguing that perception of features/quality = the value of a guitar, which it does not. Value of brand new items has nothing to do with someone's perception.



Nicki said:


> Once again, there's no monopoly in that segment. Traditionally, when you walk into a music store, you see three main brands. Fender, Gibson and Ibanez. Of the three, Ibanez always sells more because of the lower price points. It's mostly moms and dads buying GIOs for their kids for $200 or less. Then when the kid wants a more expensive instrument, their familiarity with the Ibanez brand makes them look at higher up models leading to the first tier above standard which is the premium. It's the fact that the better brands like Jackson, Godin, Charvel and Schecter aren't available or are not prominently displayed on every shops' wall of guitars that the premiums continue to sell despite their decline in overall usability. They sell and they sell well because that's what's being sold. That's why they're priced the way they are. When you have a product that is in demand, you get to charge what you want. Sad truth about retail but such is the way it goes. Hopefully Schecter's SGR line shakes the status quo and puts alternatives into the youngins' hands.



The monopoly is that they are the only ones making something like that, he is trying to compare other makes with similar features that are basically custom shop guitars and two or three times the cost of the Premium. Of course the Premium is going to look like great "value" if you don't care about wood/build quality and the time spent making said guitar.

Funny thing is thought that Schecter constantly make better guitars from Korea for a similar price point as the Premiums, I don't actually know how they do it having SS frets, branded pups and hardware and MIK for the price of some of the models, if it wasn't for the weird stigma Schecter have I might own one.



Nicki said:


>



Did you mean Suhr?


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## eightsixboy (Sep 5, 2017)

purpledc said:


> As for the tonewood thing. I want a thicker top because I grew up in a time period when flame tops were caps. Veneers for me has always been a corner cutting option to provide the beauty of a flame top but it is paper thin. And when paired with a natural edge binding effect I think it looks cheezy. You can tell its a thin veneer. And you can tell the figuring doesn't carry into the natural binding edge. To me that looks stupid and its trying to be something its not. For me its the equivalent of fake carbon fiber. Which also bugs me in a $3000+ music man majesty. IMHO they could do an actual C/F inlay on something like that.



All of which is personal opinion and not reflective in anyway of the cost of a guitar. Some veneer's, especially on cheaper guitars are very cheap looking, the EBMM you mention would cost more to manufacture that 3d carbon print then any cheaper top, you not liking it is irrelevant to the $$$ of the guitar. They did carbon look on top of a maple top anyway afaik, that whole shield section is a slab of wood.

IMO these tops look cheap anyway.





purpledc said:


> I just don't think with the amount of gain I play with it matters all that much. But I still want a full thickness top because I view it as the proper way to utilize figured woods. If its a veneer I honestly would rather not have it and would prefer a solid color or a trans finish over the body wood. But that's just me. So technically yes its about aesthetics. But if we limited out guitars purchases to just needs and didn't consider the aesthetics of a guitar we would all be playing the same thing. Looks of a guitar are important to me. The way an instrument looks has an effect on my desire to play it. And when I see veneers I don't want anything to do with it. I have two guitars with veneers right now. And honestly its the only thing about those guitars I absolutely hate.



No one said looks don't matter or are not considered, your assuming that people are either looks vs build quality or looks vs needs. You also make it sound like if you want a well built guitar its going to be bland or boring somehow. Have you not seen any of the prestige's from previous years with thick tops?

If guitarists strictly limited there guitar guying selection to only "needs" we would still have a vast selection of colours and wood combo's.

All of what you are describing is opinion at the end of the day, none of which is reflective of the value of a brand new guitar.


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## purpledc (Sep 5, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> All of which is personal opinion and not reflective in anyway of the cost of a guitar. Some veneer's, especially on cheaper guitars are very cheap looking, the EBMM you mention would cost more to manufacture that 3d carbon print then any cheaper top, you not liking it is irrelevant to the $$$ of the guitar. They did carbon look on top of a maple top anyway afaik, that whole shield section is a slab of wood.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



More goal post moving. All of your points could just as easily apply to my argument as they do yours. We both only have opinions. Which was my argument all along. That different people view different things differently. As such we all value things differently. And what it really comes down to is you would take a prestige and I would take a premium. As I obviously did. But I have to laugh at your comments on the tops of the premiums looking cheap. That of course is just your opinion right? right. And like you say, you not liking it doesn't reflect in its value at all. Right? right. I think its funny how you will slam the top because its on a premium but the prestige are better by default even though most of the time the veneers they use on the prestige look even worse. And they use the exact same type of wood only its a 100th the thickness. Yeah, yeah, I know, "But its a prestige". No fucks given.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 5, 2017)

I like turtles.


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## marcwormjim (Sep 6, 2017)

This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable one, then refuses to get a room.


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## farren (Sep 6, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> This is what happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable one, then refuses to get a room.



I used to get involved in arguments like this. 847 epic forum arguments later, most of them leading to short-term satisfaction which was then followed by regret as to time wasted, I quit.

Not worth it. Just stop.


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## marcwormjim (Sep 6, 2017)

No! Fight me!


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## Ordacleaphobia (Sep 6, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> No! Fight me!



I officially propose that marcwormjim and only marcwormjim is solely responsible for all of the QC issues on Indonesian Ibanez builds, Kiesel finishes, UV Reissue / RGA Prestige pricing, and that one luthier that screwed you that one time. Anybody who disagrees is both willfully ignorant and a shill; and I have likely had relations with their mother.

Seriously though, boys. Might be time to let this one go. No one seems to be changing anyone's mind.


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## marcwormjim (Sep 6, 2017)

More like Hoshino *Iffy*


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## tedtan (Sep 6, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> We are talking about value here, not personal feelings towards something based on looks, feel or perception. Value = RRP, this is basic economics. We are talking about a Brand new guitar with a RRP set by the manufacturer, none of which is influenced in the slightest by mine, pupledc's or anyone's personal opinion.



What you are describing is a suggested price point, not value. And the price of a good is not based on the cost to manufacture it in most cases, but rather what people are willing to pay for it, which is based on their perception of the value that item provides them.

Value is how useful, desirable, etc. a good is perceived to be. From there, a secondary usage of the term value would be how well their perception of a good's value matches up with the price of the good (and will be influenced by how much money they have to spend).

In other words, what is valuable to one person is not necessarily valuable to others. And what represents a good value to one person does not necessarily represent a good value to the next.


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## eightsixboy (Sep 7, 2017)

purpledc said:


> More goal post moving. All of your points could just as easily apply to my argument as they do yours. We both only have opinions. Which was my argument all along. That different people view different things differently. As such we all value things differently. And what it really comes down to is you would take a prestige and I would take a premium. As I obviously did. But I have to laugh at your comments on the tops of the premiums looking cheap. That of course is just your opinion right? right. And like you say, you not liking it doesn't reflect in its value at all. Right? right. I think its funny how you will slam the top because its on a premium but the prestige are better by default even though most of the time the veneers they use on the prestige look even worse. And they use the exact same type of wood only its a 100th the thickness. Yeah, yeah, I know, "But its a prestige". No fucks given.



All I said was it depends on how you determine value, it was you that turned it into a poo slinging fight calling me obtuse and getting your knickers in a tangle.

"People don't buy products because of the actual value of the products - they buy stuff because the price of the product closely matches their perceived value of the product."

I'm talking about actual value and your talking about perceived value. We will have to agree to disagree on which is right.


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## marcwormjim (Sep 7, 2017)

Or you could just disagree.


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## exo (Sep 7, 2017)

I'm having serious difficulty understanding why I've read thru this verbal bullshit twice in the last 18 hours. Probably a lack of common sense combined with vodka.


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## purpledc (Sep 7, 2017)

eightsixboy said:


> All I said was it depends on how you determine value, it was you that turned it into a poo slinging fight calling me obtuse and getting your knickers in a tangle.
> 
> "People don't buy products because of the actual value of the products - they buy stuff because the price of the product closely matches their perceived value of the product."
> 
> I'm talking about actual value and your talking about perceived value. We will have to agree to disagree on which is right.



Did not read. Will not read.


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## jephjacques (Sep 10, 2017)

It's not a representative sample, but I was in a guitar store in Paris a couple weeks ago and all the Premiums and Iron Labels were better built than the Prestiges they had on the wall.


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## Metropolis (Sep 10, 2017)

jephjacques said:


> It's not a representative sample, but I was in a guitar store in Paris a couple weeks ago and all the Premiums and Iron Labels were better built than the Prestiges they had on the wall.



In terms of what, and were they setup properly? Iron Label series is known for having sharp fret ends, tool marks, cheap finishes, bad fret leveling and all sorts of stuff indo Ibanez's suffer. You are more likely to get almost flawless instrument from the Prestige line. There has been lemons around recently because of mistakes in quality control, but still.


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## purpledc (Sep 10, 2017)

Metropolis said:


> In terms of what, and were they setup properly? Iron Label series is known for having sharp fret ends, tool marks, cheap finishes, bad fret leveling and all sorts of stuff indo Ibanez's suffer. You are more likely to get almost flawless instrument from the Prestige line. There has been lemons around recently because of mistakes in quality control, but still.




Yeah but it seems to be more of an issue now than it has been in the past. There is a thread right now where same dude got two jacked up prestiges in a row. Different models even. I'm seeing a lot of talk of shoddy prestige guitars lately. Especially the lower cost variants. It may not just be a fluke. And quality control starts with them making the guitar. But speaking of that, aren't ALL lemons a case of mistakes in quality control no matter where in the line it happens?


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## Metropolis (Sep 10, 2017)

purpledc said:


> Yeah but it seems to be more of an issue now than it has been in the past. There is a thread right now where same dude got two jacked up prestiges in a row. Different models even. I'm seeing a lot of talk of shoddy prestige guitars lately. Especially the lower cost variants. It may not just be a fluke. And quality control starts with them making the guitar. But speaking of that, aren't ALL lemons a case of mistakes in quality control no matter where in the line it happens?



It would be intresting to know where and how these mistakes in qc happen with Prestige line, especially because they are labeled as quality instruments through many years. If those happen in distribution section, they shouldn't pass them in to sale, instead they just should send them back to manufacturer for getting possible issues fixed.


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## Andromalia (Sep 11, 2017)

Well, however good at some point mistakes WILL happen. They will just happen less often. Remember that famed CS brand with a 23 fret guitar. ^^


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## laxu (Sep 12, 2017)

Metropolis said:


> It would be intresting to know where and how these mistakes in qc happen with Prestige line, especially because they are labeled as quality instruments through many years. If those happen in distribution section, they shouldn't pass them in to sale, instead they just should send them back to manufacturer for getting possible issues fixed.



It's usually a failure in several areas. Nearest to the buyer it is guitar stores that don't inspect what they ship out, which is somewhat reasonable for companies selling tons of gear mostly online. For a guitar put on display in a brick and mortar store it's inexcusable but happens often for various brands.

At the factory it is workers that make a mistake as there is still a lot of hand work involved in building a guitar and sometimes wood can chip. Maybe the workers have a bad day, maybe they aren't paid well enough to care or have too tight deadlines and quotas to meet, maybe it's managers that accept subpar products despite quality control catching the issues.

My experience with the Premium line is mostly basses but I have played several models that are far better than their around 1000-1500€ price tags. I own an Ibanez BTB33 that is almost perfectly built and just a really good instrument overall and it has a thin satin finish on it so none of that thick poly to hide flaws.

I was just in Japan and in the stores there without knowing the models and price ranges I would probably not be able to pick which is Premium and which is Prestige. While Prestige is still more likely to give you a really well made instrument, I would not dismiss the Premium line either as they often have more interesting woods and finishes on offer. Ibanez seems on the way to limit the Prestige line to a smaller set of more expensive Japanese made guitars whereas the Premium becomes what Prestige used to be, the "high-mid range" lineup.


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## eightsixboy (Sep 12, 2017)

purpledc said:


> Yeah but it seems to be more of an issue now than it has been in the past. There is a thread right now where same dude got two jacked up prestige's in a row. Different models even. I'm seeing a lot of talk of shoddy prestige guitars lately. Especially the lower cost variants. It may not just be a fluke. And quality control starts with them making the guitar. But speaking of that, aren't ALL lemons a case of mistakes in quality control no matter where in the line it happens?



I've been on the receiving end of some shoddy Prestige's lately as well, I posted about a RG852 on here.

http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...-pics-inside-what-a-joke.324262/#post-4774988

There was that RG852, a RG752 with a chip in the fingerboard (which I bought at a discount) and another RG752FX which had poorly cut neck pocket (didn't get that obviously).

I honestly think the good ol days of getting super high quality mid range guitars are long gone across all brands, everyone has increased there prices 20-40% in the last few years but the quality has gone mostly backwards. I've had better luck with the cheaper Indo Ibanez stuff then any other series TBH. My 08 RG7321 was/is basically perfect minus the pups and my 2017 RG7421 after a fret polish is as good as any RG752 I have owned minus the pups as well.

Unfortunately it all depends on interpretation on what's ok and what isn't, the 752 with the chip for example got inspected by the Australian Ibanez rep and he said it was ok, he saw no issue with a decent size fingerboard chip on a guitar that RRP's for $2499, go figure. The funny thing is it ended up getting sent to another dealer, unknown to them that it had a defect, after they complained I got it for a further 20% off 

Similar story with the 752 with the overly large neck pocket, I sent it back to the dealer and next thing I know, a few weeks later is its on there website, for more then I originally paid. It's almost like they have no say or no recourse with Ibanez and they just sell what they get regardless.



Metropolis said:


> It would be interesting to know where and how these mistakes in qc happen with Prestige line, especially because they are labelled as quality instruments through many years. If those happen in distribution section, they shouldn't pass them in to sale, instead they just should send them back to manufacturer for getting possible issues fixed.



There are only really two scenario's with this, either Ibanez don't care and just send them out and expect dealers or distributors to check them for defects or there are some that just slip through with issues. I think its a case of a little of both.

Its not just Ibanez, its all brands. Some of the cheaper LTD and Schecter stuff I have seen has been basically bin worthy and they still make it onto the shop floor somehow.


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## jephjacques (Sep 13, 2017)

Metropolis said:


> In terms of what, and were they setup properly? Iron Label series is known for having sharp fret ends, tool marks, cheap finishes, bad fret leveling and all sorts of stuff indo Ibanez's suffer. You are more likely to get almost flawless instrument from the Prestige line. There has been lemons around recently because of mistakes in quality control, but still.



Setup was equivalent. They had better finishes, actual tops instead of veneers, tighter neck pockets. I couldn't play each one individually of course but superficially the fretwork looked comparable. Most of them had objectively worse pickups but other than that I found them all more appealing than the Prestiges.


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## purpledc (Sep 13, 2017)

as far as premium quality this was the worst thing I found on my guitar. It and a couple other things got me a great discount though. Those are not cracks. They are just larger voids that wenge can have. This was just a particularly bad patch that no other spot on the neck was like. 






But no matter what guitar I was buying I was going to do an oil and wax finish so I kept the guitar as I loved it and I love me some discounts. Plus I turned it into this anyways.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 13, 2017)

that's fine for wenge. I ask for my wenge to be cracked and open pored like that. It's 99 percent of the draw of that wood. 

My skervesen was even more pored then that.


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## purpledc (Sep 14, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> that's fine for wenge. I ask for my wenge to be cracked and open pored like that. It's 99 percent of the draw of that wood.
> 
> My skervesen was even more pored then that.



It wasn't that it was opened pored. It was that that was the only spot that was like that. So it was a distraction when you got to the 3rd fret position as the rest of the neck was smooth except for that one spot and there was a hump as well. In this case (my preference) it made more sense to fill the voids and smooth it out than to try and create more voids on the rest of the neck. I know many prefer wenge to be more raw. I'm just not one of them.


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## vwkng1 (Sep 13, 2019)

@purpledc- May I know what products you use for the oil and wax finish pls.?
Thanks.


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