# Picking styles...



## Rev2010 (Jun 21, 2005)

Hi guys. Need some help here. A long time ago when I originally learned how to play guitar I used to pick my scales like in the attached image below. It was basically like I would alternate pick but when on a downstroke I would continue to downstroke to pick the note on the next string down rather than continue the solid down up down up of alternate picking. The image makes more sense. Anyhow... after years of picking like that and being able to speed solo very well and such but I eventually learned I was picking improperly. Being the technical person I am I decided I'd re-teach myself with standard alternate picking. I've never been able to play as fast since. Not blaming alternate picking per se. It's probably just me since I didn't practice as much as I should have.

So, I'd like to know if this style of picking that I mentioned and that's in the image below is actually just wrong/bad picking or if it is in fact a certain type/method of picking.


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## theunforgiven246 (Jun 21, 2005)

well i think its ok. i'm an alternate picker but i dont see any harm the way you do it. i think if its comfortable for you do it.


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## theunforgiven246 (Jun 21, 2005)

actually i just realized that i play like you do. hmm.


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## BCrowell (Jun 21, 2005)

The term for this is called "ECONOMY" Picking. It's very preferred for it's speed. The movement is more economical, thus the name. When taking that scale back the down, the D & U will be swapped, thus between strings it will be U U. 

This system usually works well when you have the three note per string deal. When your at four, your going to be straight alternate picking. So many times a combination is used...

I DO NOT recommend straying from this, as technique wise, it's superior. Granted you should ALSO practice it strait alternate as well, as this gets you used to times when economy picking doesn't work. Even Ron Thal gave us a huge lesson ...check this out:

E-----------------3-6-------
B-------2-3-----5-----5-----
G-----3-----3-6---------3---
D-2-5-----------------------
A---------------------------
E---------------------------
P-u-d-d-d-u-u-d-dd-u-u-u

The point is that to BE SMOOTH and FLUID, this technique should be used.


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## Rev2010 (Jun 22, 2005)

Arg, so it IS economy picking. Damn. I just discovered this term before posting this thread but when I looked read up on it they mostly referred it with sweep picking so I wasn't sure if that was in fact it.

Well, thanks for the replies so far. It's funny because when I learned guitar initially I started picking this way on my own. I wasn't taught to pick like that. At the time (years ago) I didn't see any references to this style of picking so I started commiting to alternate. Well, thanks again... I think I can probably get back my old picking style in not too much time.


Rev.


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

theunforgiven246 said:


> well i think its ok. i'm an alternate picker but i dont see any harm the way you do it. i think if its comfortable for you do it.


I used to do everything legato like satch but since I've been studying EJ's video, Im alternate picking more now. I love it.


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## Drew (Jun 22, 2005)

I play mostly legato too, because I like the sound and because my alternate picking sucks.  That said...

I used to be an economy picker, myself, but Paul Asbell (www.paulasbell.com), a sick jazz cat I studied under while in college, got be back on the alternate picking bandwagon. I at first started alternate picking more for the practice than anything else, but after a while, it began to make sense. 

Basically, alternate picking forces you to stay rhythmically even, and it's virtually impossible to do machinegun-like alternate picked runs whith economy picking (granted, it's vitually impossible anyway ) Think about it - with alternate picking, you're holding a steady rhythmic motion across all strings - this helps yopu lock into the "groove" a bit better. Economy picking doesn't have that. 

It becomes clear when you look at the differences between alternate and exonomy picking for a run. Say you're playing a three-note-per-stirng ascending scale run. There's only one difference between the two styles here, the note transitioning between strings. Thus, two notes out of every three are picked in the same manner, while in economy picking, the transition notes are played with a single stroke, while alternate there are two distinct ones. 

so, say the economy guys are right (and for the record, I believe them), and economy picking really is faster. Where does the increased speed come from? Well, two of the three notes are the same, which means you're saving time transitioning between strings. And, remember, alternate forces you to hold an even groove - if economy picking is faster, it has to be that transitional stroke. Thus, you've got what, by definition, is an uneven rhythmic pattern, two fast notes and one even faster, two fast and one faster, etc. It's aerhythmic, and what's the point of speed without rhythm?

I'm not saying it's "wrong" - rather, it's a different sound. economy, for me, seems to work better in half-time stuff where you want "flowing" lines, rather than for tight, fast picking. but, if you're going to learn just one, straight alternate picking is the most musically flexible. 

A parting quote, from Steve Morse (one of the best alt. pickers I've ever heard) - "Ten years ago, I switched from economy picking back to alternate. Now, I'm almost as fast as I was then." 

-D


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

Steve Morse and EJ by far have it nailed.


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## BCrowell (Jun 22, 2005)

Drew said:


> if economy picking is faster, it has to be that transitional stroke. Thus, you've got what, by definition, is an uneven rhythmic pattern, two fast notes and one even faster, two fast and one faster, etc. It's aerhythmic, and what's the point of speed without rhythm?
> -D



EXCELLENT POINT Drew. It's very easy to get ahead of the rythym when doing economy...thus carefull metronome practice is needed to keep it under careful control. I agree that for good sync, alternate is the way. For a nice building tension run, I love using economy...


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## Christopher (Jun 22, 2005)

I've always been a huge believer in the power of comfort. Ideally, you'd be able to use both alternate and economy picking. I've always felt that the mojo one gets that set them apart from everyone else comes from doing things a little differently.


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## Rev2010 (Jun 22, 2005)

Drew said:


> Thus, you've got what, by definition, is an uneven rhythmic pattern, two fast notes and one even faster, two fast and one faster, etc. It's aerhythmic, and what's the point of speed without rhythm?



It's not arrythmic. I think you're overlooking one key point though. With alternate picking the distance traveled by the pick is the same for both the down and the up stroke on a single string. When you transition down to the next string, with alternate picking, you need to travel over the next string to pick upwards to keep the up down up down pattern. So in this case you are changing the rythym flow since your picking is not always traveling the same distances. So I would think the opposite. I would think alernate picking would technically have a slight, though undetectable, arrythmia (if that's even a proper word for this). I never had any rythym problems when I economy picked but I practiced constantly with a metronome.

This is getting interesting! Let's keep the thoughts flowing  


Rev.


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## Drew (Jun 22, 2005)

That's a good point, Rev, and sadly, I think the only thing we can suggest at this point is good ol' scientific inquiry. 

I still stand by the "groove" factor assertation, however - down-up-down-up ad nauseum will definitely help you nail straight time 16ths more rhythmically than down-up-down-down-up-down, while down-up-down-down-up-down would kill for fast triplets. 

Ideally, I suppose it's work knowing both, because I think it's undebatable that they both have different sounds, and the more sounds at your disposal, the better, IMO. 

-Drew


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## Rev2010 (Jun 22, 2005)

Drew said:


> Ideally, I suppose it's work knowing both, because I think it's undebatable that they both have different sounds, and the more sounds at your disposal, the better, IMO.



Agreed  By the way Drew, just wanted you to know that in my last reply I wasn't meaning to sound like I was taking sides as to which method is better. I was just bringing up a technical thought that came into my mind.  I know alternate has always been the standard method taught.


Rev.


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

I used the down-up-down-up when I first got into alternate picking. Now Im incorporating the bounce technique which is faster in my opinion. It's a little hard at first but once you get it down, it feels so much better and sounds better as your getting different tones from your pick. You can guess where I got this technique from.


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## Rev2010 (Jun 22, 2005)

Flobanez said:


> Now Im incorporating the bounce technique which is faster in my opinion.



Is that a different method in itself or is that another name for economy picking?


Rev.


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

It's on Eric Johnson's instructional video. At first I thought it was nothing too special until I started trying it out and getting better at it and man, it's a faster and better technique.

You hold the pick and pick in circles clenching your fingers holding the pick and then releasing. Kind of hard to explain. It's so much faster. I practiced picking one string and EJ tends to alternate pick in fifths on the video and even sevenths. I started moving on to more strings and not only picked in fifths but fourths and thirds and I started to see how excellent this technique comes in handy for all styles.

Picking in circles. It not only doubles time but sounds so awesome. That's how he gets those chimey sounds and he does this with chords too. He picked it up from Keith Richards. Mostly everything he does involves bounce technique. He does it on and off.

Total Electric Guitar from HotLicks. 1990 is the video that I learned it from.
I'll display some when I get home. Im at work right now.


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## Drew (Jun 22, 2005)

I think that one's called circular picking, bro.  

Rev - no worries, man, you didn't seem to be gunning for me personally, and you raised a few good points that I found I couldn't immediately counter. That's cool, I'll take that any day. 

I haven't done much economy picking in years, and I still think my alt picking sucks - I should probably take another crack at it and see how it goes.


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

Yeah for some reason on the vid he calls it the bounce technique and maybe it's a name he gave it? I dont know. On the EJ forum, people refer to it as bounce and circle so maybe both. Here is an example of the technique used-
-------------------------------10-13--15-13-10------------------------------------
----------------------------11------------------13-11-15-13-11-------------------
-----------10-12-----10-12-------------------------------------12-10-------------
------8-12-------12---------------------------------------------------12-10------
-8-10------------------------------------------------------------------------13-10
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He does this so fast, it's swept. Like Steve Morse would play it.


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

And another-
--------------------------------13-17--15-20-17-15--------------------------
----------------13-15----13-15---------------------18-15--------------------
-------------14-------14----------------------------------17-14--------------
-------12-15-----------------------------------------------------17-15-------
-12-15------------------------------------------------------------------17-15
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


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## Shawn (Jun 22, 2005)

Drew said:


> I think that one's called circular picking, bro.
> 
> Rev - no worries, man, you didn't seem to be gunning for me personally, and you raised a few good points that I found I couldn't immediately counter. That's cool, I'll take that any day.
> 
> I haven't done much economy picking in years, and I still think my alt picking sucks - I should probably take another crack at it and see how it goes.


Hey why not? I think it's fun to the point now where legato seems old for me.
Dont get me wrong, I love legato and still use it, but, ever since I've discovered alternate picking, I love it. I thought I heard some from one of your songs.


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## Rev2010 (Jun 22, 2005)

Hey guys, just wanted to say thanks for all your feedback. Tonight after getting home from work I sat down and went through trying out both my old technique (economy picking) and my new technique (alternate picking). I've decided to stick with alternate.

What follows is my personal observations. They're NOT being touted as fact!! They are simply my opinions/thoughts on these picking methods.

I thought that I was able to play faster using my old way but I've found that it's actually not faster. I found a couple of things and remembered a bunch of things I'd forgotten. Like, I forgot exactly why I switched to alernate picking. After some long thought today I remembered that I was starting to scrutnize my picking and realized a lot of my fast runs had hammered on notes (last note per string before moving to next string) cause I couldn't get the picking up to the speed of my fingers. So today I tested both.

Earlier I mentioned a technical thought that alternate should be slower since when moving to the next string on a downstroke you have to pass over the string to get an upstroke thereby making the rythym a little uneven as they're difference distances. Well, I found that economy picking is actually slower than alternate because even though you seem to gain speed by not needing to "overshoot" the next string for an upstroke you actually lose speed as you're now performing two motions and the on/off switching between the two of them quickly. So, in other words, say you pick D-U-D-D-U-D-D-U etc you are going between an alternate picking mode, then switching to a short sweep for the consecutive downstroke, then re-enacting the alternate picking motion. While this technique does play faster/easier at medium speeds (when using the same effort) when you go into really really fast playing it falls apart due to the constant need to break rythmic picking flow.

So I found this stuttering motion to be worse for me. I'm sticking with alternate. Apparently, I just never practiced alternate anywhere near the amount I practiced my old picking style so that's why I can play as fast as before at the moment.

Again, please keep in mind I'm NOT saying this is all fact!! I'm sure there are millions that will dispute this and I may in fact be wrong. I'm just saying this is what *I* found from analyzing it tonight  

Thanks again for all the help.


Rev.


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## Matt (Jun 23, 2005)

Flobanez said:


> Yeah for some reason on the vid he calls it the bounce technique and maybe it's a name he gave it? I dont know. On the EJ forum, people refer to it as bounce and circle so maybe both. Here is an example of the technique used-
> -------------------------------10-13--15-13-10------------------------------------
> ----------------------------11------------------13-11-15-13-11-------------------
> -----------10-12-----10-12-------------------------------------12-10-------------
> ...



 I don't really understand this bounce or circular thing. Could someone write in the down and upstrokes in this example?


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## Shawn (Jun 23, 2005)

It's like down and up but not quite. That's why it's called circular or as EJ refers to it as bounce technique. The pick is held normally like you hold it only your picking in a circular motion using down and up. D(diagnally)-U(diagnally)-D(diagnally)-etc. In an earlier post I posted, I tried to explain the use of your fingers as well. It's like as if you're plucking a hair out of your arm. That kind of finger movement.


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## Drew (Jun 23, 2005)

Flobanez said:


> He does this so fast, it's swept. Like Steve Morse would play it.



Um, Steve Morse would definitely NOT sweep it. That man alternate picks his arpeggios, it's bloody _unsettling_, lol. 

Rev, interesting... I should sit down with my metronome and compare the two, myself. 

You raise one really good point though - personal familiarity counts way more than the mechanical aspects, at least short-term. If you're used to economy picking, you can do that much faster than you can straight alternate, even if alternate may theoretically be faster, and vice versa. 

Makes it tough to prove, no?


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## Rev2010 (Jun 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> If you're used to economy picking, you can do that much faster than you can straight alternate, even if alternate may theoretically be faster, and vice versa.
> 
> Makes it tough to prove, no?



It's definitely hard to prove. As we all know what works for some doesn't work for others. I'm pretty adaptable so I figured I best be doing whatever is technically more efficient. Again though, yeah I certainly can't prove it. Especially after only one evening analyzing both methods hehe.

But it sure is an interesting topic! So yeah, if you get the time give them both your own analysis... I love to know your findings! 


Rev.


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## Shawn (Jun 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> Um, Steve Morse would definitely NOT sweep it. That man alternate picks his arpeggios, it's bloody _unsettling_, lol.
> 
> Rev, interesting... I should sit down with my metronome and compare the two, myself.
> 
> ...


Well, what I meant is it's played as fast as it would be swept like Steve Morse alternate picks as fast as you or I would sweep arpeggios.


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## Drew (Jun 23, 2005)

You know what I'd REALLY like to see? A good video example of someone who picks "from the wrist" as opposed to "from the elbow," cause I have NO idea which I do, and I feel as if picking is something I struggle with.


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## Matt (Jun 23, 2005)

I may be slow or something but I still don't get this circular picking technique. Is it literally rotating your pick as if you were drawing invisible circles with the pointof the pick? If it is then it I can't get this near as fast as I can alternate pick


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## Shawn (Jun 23, 2005)

Yeah, my friend dubbed my "Total Electric Guitar" video on disc. What I'd like to do is post a clip of him showing this technique. 

Drew, I used my elbow first then wrist and still, I was doing it wrong.
EJ does it un-noticably where he has VERY little movement in his hands. How he does it? Im working on it.

Anyhow the movement on this "circular" or "bounce" technique is done by your thumb and index which is holding the pick. Like an in and out (plucking) or pinching. Very hard to explain. Stokes such as \ to ) to / to (. " \ " representing the direction of the pick against the string. I know, it's a sad illustration.

This weekend, I'll try to get a clip of EJ's video.


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## Drew (Jun 23, 2005)

Matt said:


> I may be slow or something but I still don't get this circular picking technique. Is it literally rotating your pick as if you were drawing invisible circles with the pointof the pick? If it is then it I can't get this near as fast as I can alternate pick



Flobanez, as EJ's video is copywritten, it's really not something that we should be posting clips of to this site - sorry, but this isn't the first discussion we've had about this, mate...

Matt, the idea is that it's a single continuous rotational motion, and thus smoother (which means faster) than seperate up-down strokes. I do straight alternate picking myself, but while I can't circular pick at speed (and haven't really worked at it), it certainly feels very relaxed at low speeds...

-D


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## Rev2010 (Jun 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> Matt, the idea is that it's a single continuous rotational motion, and thus smoother (which means faster) than seperate up-down strokes.



I know... here I go again   but I'd think circular picking would be slower as there's even more motion involved picking that way. I can certainly scribble up and down straight lines consecutively on paper with a pen far faster than I could draw circles.


Rev.


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## Shawn (Jun 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> Flobanez, as EJ's video is copywritten, it's really not something that we should be posting clips of to this site - sorry, but this isn't the first discussion we've had about this, mate...
> 
> Matt, the idea is that it's a single continuous rotational motion, and thus smoother (which means faster) than seperate up-down strokes. I do straight alternate picking myself, but while I can't circular pick at speed (and haven't really worked at it), it certainly feels very relaxed at low speeds...
> 
> -D


Yeah, your right. I remembered after I typed that. My bad. 
Maybe a better illustration as to what Im trying to explain which I have posted is the best way I could ever describe it on the last post before this.


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## Shawn (Jun 23, 2005)

Rev2010 said:


> I know... here I go again   but I'd think circular picking would be slower as there's even more motion involved picking that way. I can certainly scribble up and down straight lines consecutively on paper with a pen far faster than I could draw circles.
> 
> 
> Rev.


True, Rev. But keep in mind that it's not quite large circles. EJ was doing it as if looked like he was picking up and down strokes. That confused me. It's actually such a small circle that it is faster and as Drew said, much more relaxed. 

Start out slow, Matt, on a single string then work your way with 2 strings and so forth. I started with the E pentatonic, then moved my way to other modes. Once you get a great feel with it, you'll get faster.


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## Drew (Jun 23, 2005)

Rev2010 said:


> I know... here I go again   but I'd think circular picking would be slower as there's even more motion involved picking that way. I can certainly scribble up and down straight lines consecutively on paper with a pen far faster than I could draw circles.
> 
> 
> Rev.



Sure abput that? I just tried doing both on a scrap of paper, keeping them about 1mm... It feels like a tossup to me, but then again, it';s not quite the same motion as alternate picking, and we're used to doing both, to write...

-D


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## Matt (Jun 24, 2005)

Thanks guys, you have made it clear enough to me. I think I will still use alternate mostly anyway as I have put so much time into devoloping my technique around it. But its always cool to learn something new


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## Shawn (Jun 24, 2005)

Your welcome, Matt.  Yeah, now these days, Im choosing alternate picking over legato style. I've recommended before time and time again that every guitarist should check out EJ's Total Electric Guitar instructional video. I also have John Petrucci's Rock Discipline which is also good. Rock Discipline is a little advanced where Total Electric Guitar is extremely advance in my opinion. I love alternate picking and the circular "bounce" technique is becoming my favorite technique. I still like legato too.
I incorporate both depending on the songs I write.


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