# Top Speed?



## Konfyouzd (Jul 21, 2009)

Ok... So I've been spending a little time on the other forums lately and I recently felt like I've been smelling a lot of bullshit elsewhere so I figured I'd ask people that I trust. 

Top speed... How many bpm can you play? I saw a thread on ultimate guitar the other day where some guy says he needs a metronome that goes up to 600 bpm. 

If my math is right that's 10 notes/second. I called bullshit. Another guy says that he can successfully play 12 notes/second. Again, if my math is right that would put him at 720 bpm. 

These numbers seem incredibly high to me seeing as I've seen people do like 2 - 300 and MAYBE 400 and those are REALLY fuckin' fast.

Are numbers like 600 and 720 really possible or is this just people talking out of their ass to sound cool?

-KJ


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## s_k_mullins (Jul 21, 2009)

I've often wondered how full of shit some players are, but i can't call bullshit on anyone, cuz obviously i don't really know their skills. So i would never call them a liar.

But i do know that Maniacal (the guy that recentely posted the Blackmachine 8-string) has posted some youtube vids of himself playing Flight of the Bumblebee at 240bpm, which he says is 16 notes per second, and he does it very well...


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## distressed_romeo (Jul 21, 2009)

Fastest I've ever clocked myself with straight alternate picking (playing cleanly; no random tremolo picking bullshit) was about 16 notes per second a few years ago, but that was only playing simple repetitive patterns along one or two strings, so I don't really count it. There's no way in hell I could do it with anything involving intricate string-crossing.


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## Maniacal (Jul 21, 2009)

You are referring to total notes in a minute. On a day when I actually get to play guitar I can pick 240bpm 16th notes quite easily so.... 960 notes per minute. But that isnt bpm. Simple legato lines I can play as 16th note triplets at 180bpm, so 18 notes a second. 

A second is a lot longer than you think, and most players can pick 10 notes a second after a year of playing.


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## Scali (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm not sure who or where it was, but there was this guy who slowed down recordings of famous guitarists to try and analyse their speed.
He had this list of notorious 'fast' players (eg, Michael Angelo, Steve Vai, Yngwie Malmsteen, Rusty Cooley etc), and their note-per-second score, as well as some comments on how tight they sounded and such.
I recall that quite a few guitarists were in the 15-16 nps range, some even reacing 17 or 18 nps.

Here's a thread discussing these results, although it's not the original list (not sure where that is):
http://www.petrucciforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59998


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## Cadavuh (Jul 21, 2009)

I was doing 16th note sextuplets at about 215bpm running up and down scales. I reached a limit where my right hand couldnt move any faster. I have no idea how people can have their right hand go so fast. You need note value too man not just bpm...or are you just assuming its 16th notes?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 21, 2009)

I can do 13 notes p/s legato but I can't pick that fast for shit.


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## Maniacal (Jul 21, 2009)

215 sextuplets?
Thats ridiculous. Please video that, not because I dont believe you but because it would be impressive to see.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 21, 2009)

nah more like sextuplets at 130bpm.

what does that work out to?

like you said, a second is a long time, a lot of notes can fit in a second.


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## Maniacal (Jul 21, 2009)

sextuplets at 130 is 13 notes a second. It wasnt you I was doubting, it was the guy who said he can play 21.5 notes a second with scales.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 21, 2009)

ah sorry misread your post.

I think he means 16th notes at 215 in groups of six.


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## Maniacal (Jul 21, 2009)

phew.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 21, 2009)

Yea thats what i meant  . I guess i just have some wrong terminology. Sorry for the misunderstanding man


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## Harry (Jul 22, 2009)

Back in the days (well, only about 10 months ago) when I used to practice alternate like a man gone insane, I could hit 16th notes at 240bpm, 16 notes per second doing patterns across all six strings very cleanly.
Legato, I was hitting a sextuplets at 180 bpm (18 notes per second).
I still practice the legato stuff because I love it, but I gave up on practicing alternate picking so much because I wasn't able to make music out of my speed using alt picking. Nowadays, I'm lucky if I can hit 12 notes per second alternate picked cleanly.


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## Scali (Jul 22, 2009)

Harry said:


> Back in the days (well, only about 10 months ago) when I used to practice alternate like a man gone insane, I could hit 16th notes at 240bpm, 16 notes per second doing patterns across all six strings very cleanly.
> Legato, I was hitting a sextuplets at 180 bpm (18 notes per second).
> I still practice the legato stuff because I love it, but I gave up on practicing alternate picking so much because I wasn't able to make music out of my speed using alt picking. Nowadays, I'm lucky if I can hit 12 notes per second alternate picked cleanly.


 
For me it's the opposite. I used to play lots of legato (Satriani-style) because my picking wasn't fast, clean and controlled enough to make music with. But as my picking got better, I started using it more and more, and these days I don't really use legato much anymore.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 22, 2009)

Scali - you're referring to Willjay and his list covered strict alternate picking.

Shawn lane resided at the top hitting 18 nps, a few guys just under him (Lake Palmer from this forum was clocked at 17 nps off the top of my head) with the majority of really World-Class shredders at 15/16 nps. There's a different list over at UG covering sheer NPS regardless of technique (Freepower mods there so he can set you straight if there are any questions) but thats by the by (and also a discussion we've had here many times  )

Its been years since I actually practiced with a metronome but as far as I remember it was 16ths at around 240 with alternate picking, maybe a bit faster with economy picking (but of course, only licks where the formula fit in) and I have no idea what my legato was  

At the moment I can claim a grand speed of 0 nps.


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## Excalibur (Jul 22, 2009)

I hit OVER9000 bpm all the time


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 22, 2009)

damn i guess it actually is possible. and maybe a second is a little longer than i had it made out to be in my mind. it just seems crazy. i've never clocked myself it'd be interesting to see now...


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 22, 2009)

Here's a metronome if you're feeling inquisitive  

METRONOME ONLINE - free!


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 22, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Here's a metronome if you're feeling inquisitive
> 
> METRONOME ONLINE - free!



well everyone here sounds so damn fast. i don't wanna disappoint myself just yet.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 22, 2009)

Don't worry about it fella - 95% of speed is achieved through solid practice so if you want it, there it is. Of course there are some folks who are simply freakishly gifted (Hello Mr Lane) when it comes to that sort of thing but a little hard work is all you really need...

Besides, despite all the press that it recieves I would rate a lot of other areas of guitar playing as more important.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 22, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Don't worry about it fella - 95% of speed is achieved through solid practice so if you want it, there it is. Of course there are some folks who are simply freakishly gifted (Hello Mr Lane) when it comes to that sort of thing but a little hard work is all you really need...
> 
> Besides, despite all the press that it recieves I would rate a lot of other areas of guitar playing as more important.



i mean i'm quick but not 16 notes/second quick... i don't even know what i'd do with speed like that aside from things slower than that being much easier to pull of.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 22, 2009)

Nail > Head dude.

None other a luminary than Gary Moore said "The faster you can play, the better you play the slow stuff"


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## Harry (Jul 22, 2009)

Heh, it seems 240 bpm in 16th notes/16 notes per second is just about an average top speed for the average person, given how many people in this thread seem to have stated.
I remember the day I got to that speed, I kept trying to practice for more speed, but my picking hand just hit a brick wall at 16 notes per second in alternate picking, no matter how much I practiced I wasn't able to get any faster than that without becoming sloppy and missing notes. My fretting hand however, was able to extend beyond that speed legato wise.


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## Harry (Jul 22, 2009)

Scali said:


> For me it's the opposite. I used to play lots of legato (Satriani-style) because my picking wasn't fast, clean and controlled enough to make music with. But as my picking got better, I started using it more and more, and these days I don't really use legato much anymore.



Actually no, you weren't so much the opposite at all.
I began playing legato because I couldn't pick for shit, and even when I could get 16 notes per second alt picked, my legato still outstripped it speed wise. When I started to focus far more on vibrato, bending and some other techniques, I just decided that being able to play 16 notes per second alt picked was not adding to my musical expression, so I just dropped it from the practicing pipeline, but I kept up the legato because I could practice that for 1/4 of the time of my alt picking (since it was a technique that came more naturally to me) yet still play even faster with it, plus I just prefer that smooth flowing sound at high speed anyway.


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## Scali (Jul 23, 2009)

Harry said:


> Actually no, you weren't so much the opposite at all.
> I began playing legato because I couldn't pick for shit, and even when I could get 16 notes per second alt picked, my legato still outstripped it speed wise. When I started to focus far more on vibrato, bending and some other techniques, I just decided that being able to play 16 notes per second alt picked was not adding to my musical expression, so I just dropped it from the practicing pipeline, but I kept up the legato because I could practice that for 1/4 of the time of my alt picking (since it was a technique that came more naturally to me) yet still play even faster with it, plus I just prefer that smooth flowing sound at high speed anyway.


 
Well, I meant that I managed to make it part of my musical expression once I got good enough at alt picking, and it actually replaced most of my legato playing. Then again, I started out as a 'soul' player, concentrating on vibrato, bending and all that long before I even started thinking about developing speed/chops.


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 23, 2009)

I have an old video on youtube, of a song minus zero a year or two old now, but i was playing sexyuplet 6 notes to the beat at 200bpm back then, i've increased a little since then, but i find it hard to push much more above 210, kudos to anyone who can pick that cleanly.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 23, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> I have an old video on youtube, of a song minus zero a year or two old now, but i was playing sexyuplet 6 notes to the beat at 200bpm back then, i've increased a little since then, but i find it hard to push much more above 210, kudos to anyone who can pick that cleanly.





impressive


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## Harry (Jul 23, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> I have an old video on youtube, of a song minus zero a year or two old now, but i was playing sexyuplet 6 notes to the beat at 200bpm back then, i've increased a little since then, but i find it hard to push much more above 210, kudos to anyone who can pick that cleanly.



Were you the guy with the "spastic arm" technique? I think it was you, but don't remember.
I stopped at 16 notes per second, cos I never did that spastic arm thing because it looks like it would cause you an injury
Maybe I'll try it one day if a doctor can confirm that it's safe to do that with your arm. I'm sure it works for many people, but I'm still paranoid about how well it goes down in the long term.


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 23, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> impressive




thanks sir, i have a bunch of new videos up there with some lessons too, some legato, sweeping, picking, bits n bobs, if anyone is interested???

YouTube - ReeceFullwood's Channel


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## s_k_mullins (Jul 23, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> thanks sir, i have a bunch of new videos up there with some lessons too, some legato, sweeping, picking, bits n bobs, if anyone is interested???
> 
> YouTube - ReeceFullwood's Channel


 
Dude, i just checked out your Youtube channel, and you are an amazing player!! Seriously, it was awesome. I just watched every video, and its great stuff


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2009)

Harry said:


> Heh, it seems 240 bpm in 16th notes/16 notes per second is just about an average top speed for the average person, given how many people in this thread seem to have stated.
> I remember the day I got to that speed, I kept trying to practice for more speed, but my picking hand just hit a brick wall at 16 notes per second in alternate picking, no matter how much I practiced I wasn't able to get any faster than that without becoming sloppy and missing notes. My fretting hand however, was able to extend beyond that speed legato wise.



yea my fingering hand has always been a little quicker than my picking hand.



Scar Symmetry said:


> impressive




i'm definitely not this quick yet, but i don't think i'm far off. maybe i've just underestimated myself and let the big numbers freak me out...


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 23, 2009)

Harry said:


> Were you the guy with the "spastic arm" technique? I think it was you, but don't remember.
> I stopped at 16 notes per second, cos I never did that spastic arm thing because it looks like it would cause you an injury
> Maybe I'll try it one day if a doctor can confirm that it's safe to do that with your arm. I'm sure it works for many people, but I'm still paranoid about how well it goes down in the long term.



No dude your thinking of a different guy, Cameron Barton, he was on about Spasmatic Arm in one of his videos, thanks tho dude


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2009)

^ i've seen that spastic arm guy... he picks REALLY fuckin' fast but the last video i saw of him doing it he said he couldn't switch strings with it. what good is that?


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## scottro202 (Jul 23, 2009)

I probably top out at about 13 nps with legato or something. I never really clocked myself. I think my picking tops out at 10nps.


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## vontetzianos (Jul 23, 2009)

When I practiced picking intensly, I topped at 215 bpm sixteenth notes - about 14 nps.


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 23, 2009)

i always find if i over practice alternate picking, i end up going backwards, i spend most of my time practice on picking various techniques, but after about 4 hours of solid picking, i get kind of tired of doing it haha


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 24, 2009)

Nice video's  I have to say your action sounds seriously low but hey, so was Shawn Lane's ^^

Got any with your RC7 in?


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## Sean Babiniec (Jul 24, 2009)

Yeah, I guess I am not all that technically good. 10nps is about my max, albiet that includes string skipping. 200bpm 8th note triplets with string skips. I can't even pick at 240 bpm 16th notes.

Someday maybe...


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## Excalibur (Jul 24, 2009)

I'm just wondering, how do all of you calculate your notes per second?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 24, 2009)

you work it out from bpm.

60bpm = 1 beat per second, 120bpm = 2 beats per second.

so you figure out how many notes you're playing in a bar and bob's your uncle.

for example: if you're playing 16th notes at 120bpm that's 8 nps. if you're playing sextuplets at 120bpm that's 12 nps.


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## Excalibur (Jul 24, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> you work it out from bpm.
> 
> 60bpm = 1 beat per second, 120bpm = 2 beats per second.
> 
> ...


How are these people counting while they play, and how're they making sure that every note is clean and accurate?


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 24, 2009)

^ Probably their playing under a subdivision, like 16th notes, making sure they're playing evenly and in time with the click, and then they do the arithmetic later. As for clean and accurate, how do you measure if every note you play is clean and accurate? Probably by listening for clarity. 

I know that many guitarists tend to exaggerate their ability (a friend of mine once claimed to be able to play 64th notes at "allegro," which he believed to be 130. Obviously this was not the case), but you seem to be really skeptical of all this, Excalibur. Too many bs'ing guitarists?


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## Sean Babiniec (Jul 24, 2009)

This is all triplets at 200, so the picking part is at 10 nps.



I can do it a little faster than that, but not by much. I can do 10nps with string skips as well, but that is honestly as fast as I can go, no matter how much I warm up.


Sean


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 24, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Nice video's  I have to say your action sounds seriously low but hey, so was Shawn Lane's ^^
> 
> Got any with your RC7 in?



YouTube - ReeceFullwood's Channel

bunch on there man


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## Uncle Remus (Jul 24, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> YouTube - ReeceFullwood's Channel
> 
> bunch on there man


 
Are you using your arm inderpendantly to alt pick fast? its hard to tell since you're going so fast -.- 

Nice videos btw


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 24, 2009)

Aha! I had seen you in a video, but only recognised you with the RC7. Nice playing, and my favourite 7 string at the moment......you lucky dog!


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## ivancic1al (Jul 24, 2009)

well i found this, it's not clean, or musical, nearly a demonstration of how fast this guy can PICK i'm not saying he's a better player, just this is the fastest fucking picking i've seen. but, in all honesty, it gets to a point where you can't even hear the gaps between notes, and it becomes almost pointless to play that fast. cool vid though


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 24, 2009)

Uncle Remus said:


> Are you using your arm inderpendantly to alt pick fast? its hard to tell since you're going so fast -.-
> 
> Nice videos btw



No man and i wouldn't advise to use your arm totally, when i'm picking its kind of half wrist half elbow, i try to keep it too my wrist as much as i can.



ShadyDavey said:


> Aha! I had seen you in a video, but only recognised you with the RC7. Nice playing, and my favourite 7 string at the moment......you lucky dog!



it is a great guitar, however i do get annoyed when everyone associates me to rusty cooley, hes a big influence, but being in a band with two of his former band members, doesn't really make me feel great, when people say i'm just copying him.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 24, 2009)

16ths at 130BPM is where I top off.

I too did the legato instead of picking thing, partly out of necessity, but mainly because I liked that it sounded smoother.

I would like to get a bit faster, but playing insanely fast all the time is not my thing, I prefer to explore unusual aspects of harmony and rhythm than just straight up speed.

It would also clean up my playing a bit too. It's not sloppy for the speed, tempo and the kind of stuff of stuff I play, but it's far from flawless.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 25, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> it is a great guitar, however i do get annoyed when everyone associates me to rusty cooley, hes a big influence, but being in a band with two of his former band members, doesn't really make me feel great, when people say i'm just copying him.



People are always going to do that amigo and yeah, it must suck. There are definitely Rusty elements in your playing but don't let the haters worry you - just make some music and forget about them


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## Harry (Jul 25, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> How are these people counting while they play, and how're they making sure that every note is clean and accurate?



Well, honestly I don't think anyone counts as they play, at least not any of the people that are real musicians with their art.
The speed is just a tool for expression for them, and I seriously doubt they really care how many notes per second they have just played, as long as the emotional point got across, that is what matters.
How are they making sure they are playing clean and accurate?
Just by practicing a lot really. You practice enough and you practice correctly you're stuff is gonna be clean and accurate.
On stage, people like Satch might miss a pinch harmonic, or Steve Vai miss a note, but I doubt they get hung up about is because humans are humans, no one is ever going to play 100 per cent perfectly every time they pick up a guitar. 
All the Satch DVDs I own have playing errors (the occasional missed pinch harmonic, the odd string ringing out when it shouldn't be), but seriously he is spot on 99 per cent of the time, which quite frankly is incredible.


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## Excalibur (Jul 25, 2009)

Harry said:


> Well, honestly I don't think anyone counts as they play, at least not any of the people that are real musicians with their art.
> The speed is just a tool for expression for them, and I seriously doubt they really care how many notes per second they have just played, as long as the emotional point got across, that is what matters.
> How are they making sure they are playing clean and accurate?
> Just by practicing a lot really. You practice enough and you practice correctly you're stuff is gonna be clean and accurate.
> ...


Good points, I just can't see how people can be so precise while counting as such top speeds.



TonalArchitect said:


> ^ Probably their playing under a subdivision, like 16th notes, making sure they're playing evenly and in time with the click, and then they do the arithmetic later. As for clean and accurate, how do you measure if every note you play is clean and accurate? Probably by listening for clarity.
> 
> I know that many guitarists tend to exaggerate their ability (a friend of mine once claimed to be able to play 64th notes at "allegro," which he believed to be 130. Obviously this was not the case), but you seem to be really skeptical of all this, Excalibur. Too many bs'ing guitarists?


Yup, it's mainly Ultimate-Guitar.com's fault for making me so skeptical, there's FAR too many bullshitting guitarists there.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 25, 2009)

I don't think that artists themselves actually count those speeds dude, its people with software that do so after the fact. I know Willjay spent hours and hours with various programs isolating one second segments and then counting the notes, and there are many more people who extrapolate the nps from a short burst of speed within the confines of a song.

End of the day the original artists played those licks as a musical statement - the people that reduce the musical statement to simple numbers are the problem


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 25, 2009)

TonalArchitect said:


> I know that many guitarists tend to exaggerate their ability (a friend of mine once claimed to be able to play 64th notes at "allegro," which he believed to be 130.



that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard 

did he _really_ think people would believe that, or was he just deliberately confusing 32nd notes (which at 130 is still ridiculous) with 64ths in a bid to make his statement sound more impressive?


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## Maniacal (Jul 25, 2009)

I just accent every 8 if I am playing 16ths or every 6 if I am playing 16th note triplets. 

Its too hard to accent every 4 when you get past 220. 

If I am testing myself, I record the speed in Protools to make sure all the notes are in there. 

I also work on downstroking power chords as 8th notes at similar tempos. If I can downstroke at 220, then I can alternate pick at 220.


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## chris9 (Jul 25, 2009)

i pick odd but it works!!!! last time i checked i could play 8 notes per beat at 160bpm ish depending on how hot i am its bloody cold in britain most of the time!!!!


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## Sean Babiniec (Jul 25, 2009)

^ Rad and very musical. Good work Chris.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 25, 2009)

Nice  Although I do hate how video camera mics make everything sound terribly thin


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 25, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> Yup, it's mainly Ultimate-Guitar.com's fault for making me so skeptical, there's FAR too many bullshitting guitarists there.



Yeah, that's pretty understandable. 



Scar Symmetry said:


> that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard
> 
> did he _really_ think people would believe that, or was he just deliberately confusing 32nd notes (which at 130 is still ridiculous) with 64ths in a bid to make his statement sound more impressive?



No, actually I don't think he was trying to impress me, oddly enough. Since he didn't practice with a metronome, he probably though just in terms of the notes being faster and therefore after a certain tempo, X note value would be "32nds" in his mind.

But yeah, that was rather silly. But it wasn't in a swaggering "look how awesome I am" kind of way, more like a "innocently ignorant" way. 

The real irony was that he wasn't much of a lead guitarist-- insofar as I don't think he was too much of a technique monger.



ShadyDavey said:


> Nice  Although I do hate how video camera mics make everything sound terribly thin





Yeah, I don't know what I'd do to upload a video of myself. The tiny supposed-to-only-take-pictures camera of mine cuts out all the bass, such that if I did palm mutes on my acoustic, only the pick attack and higher end came through. And I prefer picking parallel, so no scary scratching attack either. Just a sad and terrible mic.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 25, 2009)

I guess the cheapest option is to run direct into the mic socket, or process it via your PC into the same - anything to avoid having to rely on the onboard condenser. Trying to do it with a camera phone would confuse me to be honest, can't think of anything particularly helpful to suggest in that case >_<


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## Maniacal (Jul 25, 2009)

chris9 said:


> i pick odd but it works!!!! last time i checked i could play 8 notes per beat at 160bpm ish depending on how hot i am its bloody cold in britain most of the time!!!!





Please post a video of 8 notes a beat at 160.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 25, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> you work it out from bpm.
> 
> 60bpm = 1 beat per second, 120bpm = 2 beats per second.
> 
> ...



Yarp! another way (But I can't do it on my fingers) is: 

_((Notes Per Beat) x (Beats Per Minute)) / 60secs = Notes Per Second


_


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 27, 2009)

^ According to that formula I can only play 8 2/3 notes per second.
Am I doing this right?

(4 notes per beat[16ths] x 130bpm) / 60 = 8.66666666...

I wouldn't be surprised if that's right though, I know I'm not very fast with just picking and I use a lot of legato, hammer-ons and pull-offs.


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## Excalibur (Jul 27, 2009)

All_¥our_Bass;1596407 said:


> ^ According to that formula I can only play 8 2/3 notes per second.
> Am I doing this right?
> 
> (4 notes per beat[16ths] x 130bpm) / 60 = 8.66666666...
> ...


You're probably the closest to reality in this thread


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 27, 2009)

uhh... thanks?


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## Maniacal (Jul 27, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> You're probably the closest to reality in this thread



So nobody on this forum can play faster than say.... 10 notes a second?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 27, 2009)

All_¥our_Bass;1596407 said:


> ^ According to that formula I can only play 8 2/3 notes per second.
> Am I doing this right?
> 
> (4 notes per beat[16ths] x 130bpm) / 60 = 8.66666666...
> ...



that's right yep


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## y8c616 (Jul 27, 2009)

i can do some of the John Petrucci rock discipline stuff (16th note excersises) at 280BPM, as fast as my metronome goes, so thats like 18 notes a second. Anything over 300 odd is probably bullshit lol


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 27, 2009)

post a vid


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 27, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> post a vid


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 27, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> Good points, I just can't see how people can be so precise while counting as such top speeds.
> 
> 
> Yup, it's mainly Ultimate-Guitar.com's fault for making me so skeptical, there's FAR too many bullshitting guitarists there.



that's exactly why i posted this thread. just so i could find out if these kinds of speeds were realistic. i trust you guys much more than i trust the people on UG.


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## Maniacal (Jul 27, 2009)

y8c616 said:


> i can do some of the John Petrucci rock discipline stuff (16th note excersises) at 280BPM, as fast as my metronome goes, so thats like 18 notes a second. Anything over 300 odd is probably bullshit lol



Thats really good, 280 is what I am aiming for at the moment. 

Please can you post a video?


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## Sean Babiniec (Jul 27, 2009)

Yeah, if you can play 18nps, it is probably time to focus more on music and theory than technique. That is about as fast as the human ear/brain can process individual notes anyway. That is super fast.

BTW, Maniacal, nice work. You literally can play as fast as you say!


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## Excalibur (Jul 28, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> that's exactly why i posted this thread. just so i could find out if these kinds of speeds were realistic. i trust you guys much more than i trust the people on UG.


That's kind of why I posted too 




Maniacal said:


> So nobody on this forum can play faster than say.... 10 notes a second?


Well, I don't doubt it all, but I don't don't have really well developed ears, so I can't just take peoples word for it when they tell me how much notes they're playing per second.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

y8c616 said:


> i can do some of the John Petrucci rock discipline stuff (16th note excersises) at 280BPM



can we have a vid of that?

we'd love to see it


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## Nick1 (Jul 28, 2009)

A few years ago (maybe more) I was BIG into shred. I was somewhere around 24-26 NPS (more or less I dont remember exactly) with sweeping and about 18-20 with alternate/economy picking I think. But then I started to get a bit bored with just focusing on speed. Plus I damaged some nerves in my left arm and had to have surgery. So after the surgery and physical therapy, I really backed off the speed a lot and worked on phrasing/vibrato and song writing.


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## Excalibur (Jul 28, 2009)

Nick1 said:


> A few years ago (maybe more) I was BIG into shred. I was somewhere around 24-26 NPS (more or less I dont remember exactly) with sweeping and about 18-20 with alternate/economy picking I think. But then I started to get a bit bored with just focusing on speed. Plus I damaged some nerves in my left arm and had to have surgery. So after the surgery and physical therapy, I really backed off the speed a lot and worked on phrasing/vibrato and song writing.


This is the kind of post I'm talking about people.


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## Maniacal (Jul 28, 2009)

Yeah I see what you mean.


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## Scali (Jul 28, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> it is a great guitar, however i do get annoyed when everyone associates me to rusty cooley, hes a big influence, but being in a band with two of his former band members, doesn't really make me feel great, when people say i'm just copying him.


 
Well, you sound like much more than just a copy to me.
Some excellent playing there!


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 28, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> This is the kind of post I'm talking about people.



Understandable. 

Note - some people honestly don't know what speed they play at and guess - 9/10 of these guesstimates are on the high side for some reason.

Some people do know, and exaggerate.

Some are honest.

That's life


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

Nick1 said:


> A few years ago (maybe more) I was BIG into shred. I was somewhere around 24-26 NPS (more or less I dont remember exactly) with sweeping and about 18-20 with alternate/economy picking I think. But then I started to get a bit bored with just focusing on speed. Plus I damaged some nerves in my left arm and had to have surgery. So after the surgery and physical therapy, I really backed off the speed a lot and worked on phrasing/vibrato and song writing.



no offence dude, but can you see why this post really begs to not be believed?


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## Excalibur (Jul 28, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> no offence dude, but can you see why this post really begs to not be believed?


I know, who the hell works on song writing or phrasing?


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## y8c616 (Jul 28, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> can we have a vid of that?
> 
> we'd love to see it


<object width="480" height="295"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/hcVF028C7nc&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/hcVF028C7nc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="295"></embed></object>

Yeah there it is; you'll have to listen out for the click pretty carefully at the start though


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

^ that's a bunch of HTML


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## Scali (Jul 28, 2009)

I think he meant this:


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

^ ahh... thanks. 

very fast. was that done on the bridge pup?


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## y8c616 (Jul 28, 2009)

Scali said:


> I think he meant this:




Yeah i did; i just copied the Embed code from the youtube vid in my last post, as i thought thats how you put it in a thread. 



Konfyouzd said:


> ^ ahh... thanks.
> 
> very fast. was that done on the bridge pup?



Thanks Yeah it's on the bridge pup; neither of the ibanez stock pups are too great, but the bridge gives the best lead sound IMO


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## TomParenteau (Jul 28, 2009)

I regard speed as very important, but I have never "clocked" myself.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

y8c616 said:


> Yeah i did; i just copied the Embed code from the youtube vid in my last post, as i thought thats how you put it in a thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Yeah it's on the bridge pup; neither of the ibanez stock pups are too great, but the bridge gives the best lead sound IMO



oh ok... they're stock. that was my next question. 

very impressive technique nonetheless.


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## Excalibur (Jul 28, 2009)

y8c616 said:


> Yeah i did; i just copied the Embed code from the youtube vid in my last post, as i thought thats how you put it in a thread.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Yeah it's on the bridge pup; neither of the ibanez stock pups are too great, but the bridge gives the best lead sound IMO


I don't like your picking hand technique at all, but your left hand technique is fucking awesome.


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## y8c616 (Jul 28, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> oh ok... they're stock. that was my next question.
> 
> very impressive technique nonetheless.



Cheers dude

Yeah i'll proabably either get a set of dimarzio's or SD Blackouts when i can afford it, but im getting a 7620 first, so it could be a while.

Either way, i can get a fairly decent sound out of my 7321 through my Ashdown rig so im not too bothered at the moment


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

yea the 7620 is sweet. i don't even remember what my 7321 sounded like stock. i had pups laying around from another project that never ended up happening so i only played the stock pups like once and went straight to the swap. 

i'm running x2n-7/blaze bridge (in the neck). they're VERY articulate. x2n is a little hard to control some of the time, but i like it.


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## y8c616 (Jul 28, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> I don't like your picking hand technique at all, but your left hand technique is fucking awesome.



haha what's your issue with my right hand technique?



Konfyouzd said:


> yea the 7620 is sweet. i don't even remember what my 7321 sounded like stock. i had pups laying around from another project that never ended up happening so i only played the stock pups like once and went straight to the swap.
> 
> i'm running x2n-7/blaze bridge (in the neck). they're VERY articulate. x2n is a little hard to control some of the time, but i like it.



Sounds cool the 7620 im getting has Blaze's, so i'm looking forward to hearing them first-hand. What is it about the x2n that's hard to control?


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## Excalibur (Jul 28, 2009)

y8c616 said:


> haha what's your issue with my right hand technique?
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds cool the 7620 im getting has Blaze's, so i'm looking forward to hearing them first-hand. What is it about the x2n that's hard to control?


The picking from the forearm and the two fingers splayed out


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> The picking from the forearm and the two fingers splayed out



how do you pick it? i hold my hand similar to that but i think i use my full arm for the actual picking... sometimes just the wrist, though depending on what i'm doing.


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## Excalibur (Jul 28, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> how do you pick it? i hold my hand similar to that but i think i use my full arm for the actual picking... sometimes just the wrist, though depending on what i'm doing.


Well, when I used to use a pick, I had my hand in a sort of relaxed fist like this 

I had my pick angled upwards, and my whole arm totally floating, and I picked with my wrist and used the elbow for string skipping.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using the forearm or elbow to pick, as long as they're not the only muscle groups you're utilizing, for max efficiency, the forearm, elbow and wrist are needed :3


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## hutchman (Jul 28, 2009)

Doing straight alternate picking I can play around somewhere between 13 -15 notes a second. Which I think is pretty quick. That said, every note I play is hit cleanly. It doesn't count if it's sloppy. 
I know there are a lot of speed freaks out there but it honestly is the least musical thing to accomplish on a guitar. Now I love fast licks don't get me wrong (please don't), but if there isn't a good song, who cares about your party tricks. Because if the song or solo sucks your ultra fast "arpeggios" and "tapping" don't mean shit. It's just a party trick and you might as well just bust out some juggling balls.


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## y8c616 (Jul 28, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> The picking from the forearm and the two fingers splayed out


 Yeah my right hand technique is sort of a strange mix of, say, half forearm, half wrist. It's defiantly not all coming from the forearm though; i'd cramp up and get fatigued if that were the case


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

y8c616 said:


> Yeah my right hand technique is sort of a strange mix of, say, half forearm, half wrist. It's defiantly not all coming from the forearm though; i'd cramp up and get fatigued if that were the case



that guy on youtube does it all from his elbow/forearm and is ridiculously fast. i think we talked about him earlier in this thread. the "spastic arm" guy.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 28, 2009)

Good chops, damn video mics causing horrid tones but you can live with those


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Good chops, damn video mics causing horrid tones but you can live with those



i know. that's why i usually hate those youtube tone tests. a lot of the guitars sound almost exactly the same through video mics and computer speakers.


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 28, 2009)

Aye, I think that until you upload a video of your own onto YouTube then you don't hear the impact the recording process really has. If I ever get the chance I'll either go direct into my soundcard and into Overloud or DI it and run into a simple VST. Hopefully 

Anyway! More on topic:

Really enjoying the guys from here posting videos up - would love to see more


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## Maniacal (Jul 28, 2009)

Am I the only person who thinks that playing was messy and was also no where near 280 bpm?

These are the sort of videos that just make me laugh at the end of the day. 
Set the click to 233000 bpm and just make some noise. Success!


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

the click was definitely 280 but I did think the playing wasn't up to speed and was a little sloppy.


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 28, 2009)

I also thought that the playing was sloppy, but since the response was so positive, I thought that maybe it was the camera mic screwing with me.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 28, 2009)

i dunno... i'm not the cleanest player in the world nor am i that fast. plus i was giving him the benefit of the doubt considering he was using stock ibby pups and the mic may not be the best in the world.


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 28, 2009)

This is getting really serious now, i think playing guitar in general (not just speed) is a personal thing everyone does it there own way, no one likes to be laughed at or told there sloppy or shit, or there technique is bad, it does play on the mind. We are all guitarists, all playing fast. so why does everyone pick at everyone.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

to be fair if you claim to be able to play at 280bpm you have to be prepared to show that you actually can play at that speed


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 28, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> to be fair if you claim to be able to play at 280bpm you have to be prepared to show that you actually can play at that speed



Aye, picking at 280 is on the upper limit of speed so it needs to be satisfied in a manner like which I associate other players of that calibre. I'm not going to knock anyone who makes the attempt and posts a video of themselves doing it, but of course the faster you get, the more critical people become.

Human nature I guess.


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## haffner1 (Jul 28, 2009)

I know I don't have room to talk- I have right hand nerve damage so I can only pick about max 220bpm (16ths). I doubt it will ever improve beyond that. I was injured in the army and the muscles in my upper forarm were basically non-functional for over a month. It was never quite the same after.


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## Maniacal (Jul 28, 2009)

I dont see this thread as a negative thing. If you claim to be able to do something but cant, you are just lying. I think the guy who started this thread was genuinely interested in seeing what other guitarists are capable of, so why make it up?

I joined the Ultimate Guitar forum a few days ago and I could not believe the number of bitter/lying people on there. The worst thing that could happen to this forum is to get the same kind of responses in threads.

I totally believe someone could play at 280bpm+, but to actually do it cleanly, with good timing and tone is a totally different matter. I havent seen anyone pick properly past 270.

And yes, people become far more critical as you get to the higher levels, but thats apparent for everything in life.


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 28, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> This is getting really serious now, i think playing guitar in general (not just speed) is a personal thing everyone does it there own way, no one likes to be laughed at or told there sloppy or shit, or there technique is bad, it does play on the mind. We are all guitarists, all playing fast. so why does everyone pick at everyone.




There's a difference though between just attacking someone and critiquing their flaws. We're not saying he should be flogged and have his instruments thrown in a wood chipper for not playing as cleanly as we think he should. But he claimed to play at 280 BPM, it wasn't terrifically clean nor did it seem quite at the proper tempo, both of which are prerequisites for claiming to play (well) at a certain speed.


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## y8c616 (Jul 28, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> the click was definitely 280 but I did think the playing wasn't up to speed and was a little sloppy.


Il be the first to admit that i was playing a little sloppy in that vid;
not to sound like i'm making excuses, but playing excersises to the metronome for hours on end is something i've not done in a while, being more into learning songs and writing my own stuff at the moment.
Back when i did practice that lick intensively, i could get to 240 and be totally accurate; going to 280 was a little hit or miss, (as seen in the video, which was after a warm up and a couple of takes) unless i worked up to it over time with the click


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## Sean Babiniec (Jul 28, 2009)

Nick1 said:


> A few years ago (maybe more) I was BIG into shred. I was somewhere around 24-26 NPS (more or less I dont remember exactly) with sweeping and about 18-20 with alternate/economy picking I think. But then I started to get a bit bored with just focusing on speed. Plus I damaged some nerves in my left arm and had to have surgery. So after the surgery and physical therapy, I really backed off the speed a lot and worked on phrasing/vibrato and song writing.




If I did the math correctly (pretty sure I did), that is 16th notes at 390bpm.


26 notes/sec * 60sec/min / 4notes/beat = 390bpm 16th notes


damn...


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## Nick (Jul 28, 2009)

well i clocked myself picking 16ths at 190 today and i also bought maniacles book today!

so hopefully i'll hit my goal of 230 after a bit of time spent on it!


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

yep and 24 nps is 360 bpm 16th notes which I'll be honest, I don't believe at all. 

to be honest 360 bpm 16th notes would sound like turd anyway, once it gets past 270/280 it ceases sounding cool and just sound ridiculous.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

Nick said:


> well i clocked myself picking 16ths at 190 today and i also bought maniacles book today!



is that just on one note or is every note different?


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## Nick (Jul 28, 2009)

every notes not different just really basic 'riff' patterns like a lot of behemoth riffs.

iv pretty much hit a speed wall and i think its my shitty endurance and speed on really basic stuff thats holding me back in other areas.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 28, 2009)

chris9 said:


> i pick odd but it works!!!! last time i checked i could play 8 notes per beat at 160bpm ish depending on how hot i am its bloody cold in britain most of the time!!!!




That "odd lick" in the second vid was sick!


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## Reece Fullwood (Jul 28, 2009)

Man i agree with everything you all just said on the subject, i just know how it feels, to be ripped on for playing fast. really sucks ballz. 
while we are on the subject did you guys see tiago della vegas world record flight of the Bumblebee, 370bpm?



got to 3.20 in the video


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 28, 2009)

Tiago Della Vega looks like my older brother


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 28, 2009)

To be honest, I don't think anyone is going to top Shawn Lane for clean and accurate picking - even slowed down his licks are metrically precise and he's not just playing excercise-type phrases, he's playing beebop....thats of course not to say that you can't get as fast as he was but getting beyond that?

I don't think so. Sweeping and legato are of course a different matter but for the former then Frank really does take the crown. The Fareri's of this world might be faster but simply repeating a sextuplet sweep isn't anything like improvising the way Frank's done it countless times. 

For Legato then look no further than Allan Holdsworth or possibly Derryl Gabel....and the point of the name-checking is....

Established benchmarks. As Maniacal said we are going to be critical so you need someone to hold up as an examplar of technique for comparison against. I'm only an interested observer who hasn't played in years so I have no axe to grind and frankly I love to hear well-played fast guitar so YouTube turns me off simply through audio quality and consequently I tune out for a lot of the players on there. 

That said, taking the mic input from your video camera and running a guitar into it might not generate the best tone in the world, but you can get a miles better idea of whats going on....

re: Tiago - yeah, he's fast as all fuckery but he's not picking every note.....


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 28, 2009)

^ So what is he doing, not-quite-legato? It just sounds like mush to me.

EDIT: Also, on the topic of Lane, what are some of his more difficult alternate-picked licks?


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 28, 2009)

Its not quite Legato aye 

For Mr Lane its really hard to say "X song at Y time" but definately check out some of the licks from Power Licks/Solos as they're a lot easier to follow for examples of speed (i.e they're all tabbed and the videos are up on YouTube in good quality).

I know that sounds like a total cop-out but honestly when I listen to some of the faster live recordings I can't hear what the hell he's doing - if its alt-picked, or legato, or what......

His absolute top NPS ratings came from Willjay and I frankly can't remember what he was clocking to get the reading. The string-skipping 3 notes per sting diminished licks were recorded at 19 or 20 nps iirc (and I might not, its late  ). 

That wasn't very helpful, sorry


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## Nick1 (Jul 29, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> This is the kind of post I'm talking about people.



Like I said I really did some serious damage to my nerves in my left arm. My method was I would take a few phrases 1 or 2 for sweeping, legato, tapping, alternate picking etc... and play them over and over for hours each day for a few weeks. I would play these phrases in just about every key and at various tempos. After several weeks of the same phrases they would get to pretty high tempos. At this point in time that is ALL I was working on for about 6-8 hours per day or more. 

Here is the after math from it all........

View attachment 11509


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## Nick1 (Jul 29, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> to be honest 360 bpm 16th notes would sound like turd anyway, once it gets past 270/280 it ceases sounding cool and just sound ridiculous.



That is your opinion not a fact. 

There are lots of players that can do over 30 per second. Like Shawn Lane or George Bellas (just to name 2) George Played on the Vitalij Kuprij album called Extreme Measures. Check out the track called "Track on Fire" Thats some of the fastest playing Ive ever heard in my life!


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 29, 2009)

Nick1 said:


> There are lots of players that can do over 30 per second



I know of one for certain (Fareri) and at that speed it really does lose any musical identity. There aren't lots of players who can do 30+nps and even if there were, it just sounds awful - in my opinion at least.


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## Excalibur (Jul 29, 2009)

Reece Fullwood said:


> Man i agree with everything you all just said on the subject, i just know how it feels, to be ripped on for playing fast. really sucks ballz.
> while we are on the subject did you guys see tiago della vegas world record flight of the Bumblebee, 370bpm?
> 
> 
> ...



It's been debunked.



Nick1 said:


> Like I said I really did some serious damage to my nerves in my left arm. My method was I would take a few phrases 1 or 2 for sweeping, legato, tapping, alternate picking etc... and play them over and over for hours each day for a few weeks. I would play these phrases in just about every key and at various tempos. After several weeks of the same phrases they would get to pretty high tempos. At this point in time that is ALL I was working on for about 6-8 hours per day or more.
> 
> Here is the after math from it all........
> 
> View attachment 11509


I'm sure you were fast, but at the speeds you're suggesting, you can apparently pick faster than Shawn Lane, sweep faster than MAB, tap faster than Guthrie, legato faster than Shawn Lane.

So....




Nick1 said:


> That is your opinion not a fact.
> 
> There are lots of players that can do over 30 per second. Like Shawn Lane or George Bellas (just to name 2) George Played on the Vitalij Kuprij album called Extreme Measures. Check out the track called "Track on Fire" Thats some of the fastest playing Ive ever heard in my life!


Um, no they can't.

Shawn Lane's NOWHERE near over 30, he's very fast though.
George Bellas is also the same.

A word of advice, throwing around random numbers does not impress me, nor does it impress other members of this forum.

I'm advising you to provide some sort of proof, or to stop exaggerating your claims and others, it only makes people more blind and in the dark regarding speed on the Guitar.


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## Harry (Jul 29, 2009)

^Yep, I agree with that pretty much. Especially the video, it was debunked AGES ago, I don't understand why it still gets thrown around.


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## Harry (Jul 29, 2009)

One thing that I don't think was mentioned either, is people have their good playing days and their bad playing days.
Some days you're simply going to perform better than others, no way around it, humans by nature are not going to be 100 per cent consistent from day to day and from performance to performance.
I once had an extremely good playing day last year, where I was picking 16th notes at 270bpm cleanly. I remember that day so vividly.
It never ever happened again, and everyday after that I was topping out at 240bpm clean.
I tend to think unless you're of Shawn Lane genius ( a dude with an insane memory capacity, learning ability far beyond the average person and just general quick mindedness), the 240bpm at 16th notes alternate picked seems to be a good number at what the normal, average guy like myself or many of the other forum members or players in general will top out at.
Especially so, since it was a figure cited by not just one, but several people in this thread.
So pretty much, for me at least anyway, anyone that claims to be able to pick at faster than 16 notes per second (16th note triplets at 160bpm/16 notes at 240bpm), then I want to see a video, and have it slowed down by someone like Willjay that knows their shit to confirm that it's actually clean, because seriously, past that point speedwise is really pushing the limits of what the normal person can do IMHO.

However in legato, 18 notes per second is my "believable" threshold. 
Satch has hit 18.4 notes per second clean in legato and given the man is a god at the technique, I tend to think that is the upper limit for legato.
Maybe Shawn Lane was hitting a bit faster, 19 notes maybe, but regardless that seems about the limit for playing it clean I think.
Why is 18 notes believable? Because you're not having to constantly synchronize two hands like you do for alternate picking.
You only pick a few notes at a time, and hell, if your technique is good enough, you can probably fluff up the picking now and then and still sound good since your left hand is good enough.
My alt picking sucks now because I stopped practicing in favor of vibrato and sweep picking (I'm lucky to hit 10 notes per second these days I reckon), but I'd be willing to post up some videos of me playing legato if I could get someone to film me.
I think 16 notes per second in legato is very achievable playing proper musical stuff and I reckon 17, possibly 18-ish is my limit when playing exercise material. Anything over 18, I think would be impossible for me to playing clean no matter what.


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## Nick1 (Jul 29, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> It's been debunked.
> 
> 
> I'm sure you were fast, but at the speeds you're suggesting, you can apparently pick faster than Shawn Lane, sweep faster than MAB, tap faster than Guthrie, legato faster than Shawn Lane.
> ...


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## Santuzzo (Jul 29, 2009)

Reece, that is an awesome clip !!! GREAT song and GREAT playing!!!!


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## Sean Babiniec (Aug 1, 2009)

It seems like Reece and Johnathan are the badasses of this thread!


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## HumanFuseBen (Aug 2, 2009)

16ths at 240 is the AVERAGE??? holy hell, i need to catch up here... that is fast as balls, guys. when you all talk about this kind of speed that you have, is that just picking an open string, or are you going through and doing 3 note per string scales and stuff at that pace? if so, that is hauling some serious ass. 
i used to spend hours and hours working on speed, and a couple years ago my chops were pretty damn nasty. i was doing 3 not per string scales and 4 note per string chromatic stuff at like 210-ish, and to my ears, that was pretty damn fast.

i've been spending a lot of time lately trying to up my speed level, and i only consider myself to be able to "play" at a certain BMP if i can freely improvise with it, run up and down scales with all picked notes, etc... with that method in mind, i'm having a hard time getting past 175-ish BMP's, all 16th notes. my left hand isn't the problem, it seems to be my right hand, i suppose. i do everything pretty normally, as far as the way i hold my pick and everything. i "slice" the string at a slight diagonal and bend my thumb a little, ala Paul Gilbert. when playing a run going from the low strings to the high strings, i will progressively palm mute the unused low strings as i get to the higher strings in order to keep them from making any noise...
am i doing anything odd, from the sounds of things? i've not been hitting the metronome super super hard lately, so maybe i just need to do more of it. after a person has been playing for a number of years, i think its easy to forget that sometimes to raise the bar for your playing, it takes tons of time. maybe that is my problem!


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## Jackface20 (Aug 2, 2009)

I hardly think that they meant the average person plays at 240 bpm perfectly clean, I think it was more intended as the limit most people cannot physically surpass and struggle with, assuming a huge amount of metronome effort etc - theres plenty of professional musicians who rarely pass 200 bpm and are still considered to be very fast - its more about how clean you play and what you do with it anything beyond like 160 bpm imo....


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## Excalibur (Aug 2, 2009)

Quick question, to all the speed demons in here.

What does reaching these speeds achieve?


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

^ bragging rights...?

i really only started this thread because i had heard some numbers that i thought were ridiculous so i wanted to get a feel for the average. that's all.


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## Scali (Aug 2, 2009)

Not sure if I fall in the 'speed demon' category, but in my case I try to get my technique and speed up in order to improve my accuracy and extend my possibilities when writing/playing my own music. It makes all the not-so-fast stuff pretty much effortless when playing.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

^ that too


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## Sean Babiniec (Aug 2, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> Quick question, to all the speed demons in here.
> 
> What does reaching these speeds achieve?



Just like someone who plays violin in a symphony, it is important to have speed so that you can physically play any piece of music handed to you. For me, I need speed so that I can execute the music that I hear in my head. (Please note that I am only at 16ths at 160 bpm, so I am pretty slow)

However, there are so many little kids that are shredders on youtube, playing every "Betcha can't play this" and such, but they can't even name the chords in a C major scale. They wouldn't even be able to sit down and jam with you.

To me, speed is only a technique to facilitate the music, and insurance that you will be able to execute the music. It is just so highly focused on now-a-days.

However, it is better than the grunge days where all people focused on was how old and shitty their telecaster looked while they played a power chord! 

Sean


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## Scali (Aug 2, 2009)

Sean Babiniec said:


> However, there are so many little kids that are shredders on youtube, playing every "Betcha can't play this" and such, but they can't even name the chords in a C major scale. They wouldn't even be able to sit down and jam with you.
> 
> To me, speed is only a technique to facilitate the music, and insurance that you will be able to execute the music. It is just so highly focused on now-a-days.
> 
> However, it is better than the grunge days where all people focused on was how old and shitty their telecaster looked while they played a power chord!


 
Haha yea... I started guitar in the early 90s, being inspired by the guitar greats of the 80s... and then grunge happened...
To me the 80s are still the 'golden age' of guitar. Lots of great guitarists, and back then they delivered the whole package... they had the chops, but also wrote good songs and had great tone.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

grunge gave us jerry cantrell


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## Maniacal (Aug 2, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> Quick question, to all the speed demons in here.
> 
> What does reaching these speeds achieve?



Ridiculous riffs. Control. Funny guitar playing.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

to be honest i'm also a fan of dragonforce and rusty cooley's weird little shred video game noises. i don't think i'd actually ever use them but i think stuff like that is fun to play when i'm at home practicing.


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## Sean Babiniec (Aug 2, 2009)

Scali said:


> Haha yea... I started guitar in the early 90s, being inspired by the guitar greats of the 80s... and then grunge happened...
> To me the 80s are still the 'golden age' of guitar. Lots of great guitarists, and back then they delivered the whole package... they had the chops, but also wrote good songs and had great tone.



Definitely. Anything on Shrapnel in the 80s was awesome. I think we are starting to recover though, with solo albums such as Loomis' Zero Order Phase!


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## Santuzzo (Aug 2, 2009)

Sean Babiniec said:


> Definitely. Anything on Shrapnel in the 80s was awesome. I think we are starting to recover though, with solo albums such as *Loomis' Zero Order Phase!*



Hell, yeah. What a great album ! I love it!


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## Fred (Aug 2, 2009)

I start struggling when the metronome goes above about 150bpm, haha. Shred's never really been my bag.


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## Excalibur (Aug 2, 2009)

Sean Babiniec said:


> Just like someone who plays violin in a symphony, it is important to have speed so that you can physically play any piece of music handed to you. For me, I need speed so that I can execute the music that I hear in my head. (Please note that I am only at 16ths at 160 bpm, so I am pretty slow)
> 
> However, there are so many little kids that are shredders on youtube, playing every "Betcha can't play this" and such, but they can't even name the chords in a C major scale. They wouldn't even be able to sit down and jam with you.
> 
> ...



I can understand, and I think 16ths at 160 bpm is perfectly fine, anything above that and I stop listening.



Maniacal said:


> Ridiculous riffs. Control. Funny guitar playing.


Speedy riffs aren't always ridiculous, I've seen some pretty tricky slow stuff


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## Maniacal (Aug 2, 2009)

Of course, and that is when I study displacement, dynamics, metric modulation, ghost notes etc. 

But I like playing both. And playing fast means I can easily string skip awkward riffs that are much slower.


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## Scali (Aug 2, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Of course, and that is when I study displacement, dynamics, metric modulation, ghost notes etc.
> 
> But I like playing both. And playing fast means I can easily string skip awkward riffs that are much slower.


 
Do you have any example of that?
Your youtube channel only seems to have random picking exercises. You got any actual songs somewhere?


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 2, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> 16ths at 160 bpm is perfectly fine, anything above that and I stop listening.



that's rubbish, if you listen to any modern shredder then you are listening to speeds much faster than that.


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## Excalibur (Aug 2, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> that's rubbish, if you listen to any modern shredder then you are listening to speeds much faster than that.


I used to listen to all sorts of fast players, but Tony MacAlpine and Vai are as far as I go nowadays.


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## Maniacal (Aug 2, 2009)

Scali said:


> Do you have any example of that?
> Your youtube channel only seems to have random picking exercises. You got any actual songs somewhere?



I am actually preparing to record an album that contains loads of it. 2 things are currently slowing me down, work and having to learn all the drum, piano and bass parts. 

I will be putting a showcase of riffs etc on youtube pretty soon though.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 2, 2009)

yep, they would class as modern shredders


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

Vai's pretty damn fast when he wants to be from what I've listened to. I don't know the exact speeds, though.


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## Maniacal (Aug 2, 2009)

Tony MacAlpine and Vai never go over 160.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> I am actually preparing to record an album that contains loads of it. 2 things are currently slowing me down, work and having to learn all the drum, piano and bass parts.
> 
> I will be putting a showcase of riffs etc on youtube pretty soon though.



same thing i'm going through right now


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## Maniacal (Aug 2, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> same thing i'm going through right now



Damn, its been a total nightmare for me. After destroying a £1500 laptop and a prestige S series ibanez I thought I was ready to record.... then my mac died! So I have got a new a Mac, now I need to buy Eastwest symphony orchestra again and DFH. 

Total fucking hassle.

Never write a book. Never record music. Never work for yourself.

3 valuable pieces of advice.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

Maniacal said:


> Damn, its been a total nightmare for me. After destroying a £1500 laptop and a prestige S series ibanez I thought I was ready to record.... then my mac died! So I have got a new a Mac, now I need to buy Eastwest symphony orchestra again and DFH.
> 
> Total fucking hassle.
> 
> ...



damn your story is worse than mine. i'm just really tired from work all the time even though i have a freakin desk job. i work with a computer so i don't usually want to sit at one when i get home. 

that and i've been trying to get off my ass and get a lady in my life so i've just been putting less time into the things that generally keep me away from women. 

but i'm gettin' back into recording now because of the ss.org album thing. you doin' that? 

/off topic (sorry)


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## Maniacal (Aug 2, 2009)

No, I dont know what that is.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2009)

there's a thread up about it. bunch of guys collaborating with the hopes of maybe putting together an ss.org album for fun.

now that i think about it. the album is a marvelous idea. rather than sitting around picking at each other about who can shred faster and why it's necessary to play certain speeds it'll give us a chance to work together and find out how others use their speed (among other skills) and really give us a chance to learn from each other. i'm excited.


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## Harry (Aug 3, 2009)

Sean Babiniec said:


> Just like someone who plays violin in a symphony, it is important to have speed so that you can physically play any piece of music handed to you. For me, I need speed so that I can execute the music that I hear in my head. (Please note that I am only at 16ths at 160 bpm, so I am pretty slow)
> 
> However, there are so many little kids that are shredders on youtube, playing every "Betcha can't play this" and such, but they can't even name the chords in a C major scale. They wouldn't even be able to sit down and jam with you.
> 
> ...




There were shit loads of grunge songs that had solos all over them.
Sound Garden had many examples of odd time signatures and SHIT LOADS of guitar solos, they were hardly a "one power chord" band, and neither were Alice In Chains and Pearl Jam.
AIC guitarist Jerry Cantrell is a very skilled guitarist with plenty of chops, far more than the average bedroom shredder.
I've seen plenty of players try to emulate his solos and they fall completely flat because they are nowhere near as fluid as Cantrell.
He also player a modern a G&L super strat guitar, not a telecaster.
No offense, but that was an extremely ignorant statement to make.


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## Harry (Aug 3, 2009)

Fred said:


> I start struggling when the metronome goes above about 150bpm, haha. Shred's never really been my bag.



Just give it some time and you'll get there.
I remember when I was struggling with that kind of tempo too, each week you can just increase by a few bpm until you're finally where you want to be.


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## Sean Babiniec (Aug 3, 2009)

Harry said:


> There were shit loads of grunge songs that had solos all over them.
> Sound Garden had many examples of odd time signatures and SHIT LOADS of guitar solos, they were hardly a "one power chord" band, and neither were Alice In Chains and Pearl Jam.
> AIC guitarist Jerry Cantrell is a very skilled guitarist with plenty of chops, far more than the average bedroom shredder.
> I've seen plenty of players try to emulate his solos and they fall completely flat because they are nowhere near as fluid as Cantrell.
> ...


 
Sorry for my generalization Harry, I was mearly trying to say that the grunge era was the era where guitar diminished in the mainstream, mostly because of the public interest not the individual players. There will always be bands that have great musicians, but this period had more bands that didn't have great musicians. 

I realize that my opinion is a little biased, I just really didn't like grunge music. But that is just my opinion.


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## ShadyDavey (Aug 3, 2009)

I think you're right for what it's worth Sean - Grunge had some very successful bands (with some very competant players) but it was also the era where it was cool not to be able to play and there were equally a lot of bands where the guitarists were cack.


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## Scali (Aug 3, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> I think you're right for what it's worth Sean - Grunge had some very successful bands (with some very competant players) but it was also the era where it was cool not to be able to play and there were equally a lot of bands where the guitarists were cack.


 
Well, I hope I don't offend anyone, but the examples given... Soundgarden and Pearl Jam... Those guitarists don't compare in the least to guys like Paul Gilbert, Tony MacAlpine, Eddie van Halen, Steve Stevens, Jason Becker, Yngwie Malmsteen, Richie Sambora, Vito Bratta, John Norum, Kee Marcello, Steve Lukather etc...
Sure, they may not have been as poor as Kurt Cobain... but still I don't consider them above average. I mean, that's the entire point... In the 80s you had tons of great players, and the average standard was just really high. Just being a solid player wasn't good enough, you had to have a killer tone and some killer chops in order to get noticed.

Somehow, after grunge happened, it was considered 'good' when you could actually tune your guitar, knew a few basic chords, and could play some simple pentatonic licks, and call it a 'solo'. It's not supposed to be anything special... that's just the basics for any professional musician. But because the average grunge band sucked so hard, it was actually special when some guitarist was actually reasonably solid, and didn't sound like a total beginner.

Now I don't know Jerry Cantrell, but perhaps that alone says enough about him. I'm sure he's pretty good at what he does, but I doubt he's anywhere near as good as any of the 80s shredders, else I'd be more familiar with his work


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## Hawkevil (Aug 3, 2009)

I've always thought a good guitar player was someone who could write good songs, not someone who could play a million notes a second. Yes it is impressive and adds alot to a guitar player but you don't NEED to be able to shred to be a good player. 

OBviously you might not agree becuase its your own opinion but guitarists like Matt Bellamy, Dave Grohl, the guys from Incubus, Slash. All of these are considered not to be shred guitarists but all are great songwriters. I'd take a good song over a shred solo any day. 

Just my opinion...carry on


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## Scali (Aug 3, 2009)

Slash is actually a pretty decent guitarist in terms of speed and pyrotechnics (or at least, he was back in the GnR days). I wouldn't put him in the same list as Bellamy or Grohl. He doesn't often shred it up, but at the end of Paradise City, he lays down some pretty impressive runs. The stuff he did on Michael Jackon's Give in to me isn't bad either. And ofcourse Slash pairs that speed with a great tone, killer bends and vibratos and very unique, instantly recognizable phrasing.

Bellamy lacks control if you ask me, his intonation and vibrato don't sound very solid... and he generally has horrible tone aswell. I can't recall Grohl ever playing anything melodic anyway.

Brings us back to the point... yea ofcourse a good guitarist has to be able to write good songs... but that alone is not enough. If you write a good song, but can't even play it properly in tune, you're not a good guitarist if you ask me.
I expect a good guitarist to also have a very solid technique and a good tone. And technique is not just about speed either. It's also about control. About being able to tell a story with just a single note by applying perfectly controlled vibrato and bending.
And while I don't expect anyone to be Rusty Cooley-fast, there's a world of difference between ultra-slow pentatonic solo's and Rusty Cooley. Nothing wrong with some 'moderate' speed, such as what Slash displays for example. He's fast enough to actually be able to use fast runs in a musical context, adding to the song. And it's not like only a guitar god like Slash can reach such speeds. I think anyone can, if they're willing to put in the practice... and putting in practice is just something that professional guitarists should be doing. It's their job. In most jobs it's pretty much a given that the people know what they're doing, such as doctors, carpenters, mechanics, plumbers etc. Why can't we expect the same of people who make music for a living? If you see what lots of young 'amateur' players can do on forums like these, isn't it strange that these multi-million earning musicians can barely tune their instrument?


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## ShadyDavey (Aug 3, 2009)

Scali said:


> Well, I hope I don't offend anyone, but the examples given... Soundgarden and Pearl Jam... Those guitarists don't compare in the least to guys like Paul Gilbert, Tony MacAlpine, Eddie van Halen, Steve Stevens, Jason Becker, Yngwie Malmsteen, Richie Sambora, Vito Bratta, John Norum, Kee Marcello, Steve Lukather etc...
> Sure, they may not have been as poor as Kurt Cobain... but still I don't consider them above average. I mean, that's the entire point... In the 80s you had tons of great players, and the average standard was just really high. Just being a solid player wasn't good enough, you had to have a killer tone and some killer chops in order to get noticed.
> 
> Somehow, after grunge happened, it was considered 'good' when you could actually tune your guitar, knew a few basic chords, and could play some simple pentatonic licks, and call it a 'solo'. It's not supposed to be anything special... that's just the basics for any professional musician. But because the average grunge band sucked so hard, it was actually special when some guitarist was actually reasonably solid, and didn't sound like a total beginner.
> ...



No no, no offence taken dude. I think the point was that there was generally a drop in the level of ability but there were some that whilst not aspiring to the heights of the 80's refused to sink to the lows of the 90's 

If anything the musicianship of Cantrell and Kim Thayil was such that whilst competant players they really didn't need to shred to impress. However, seeing as this is a thread about teh speed then ultimately there was an overall drop in the 90's. The shredders still did indeed shred but it wasn't as popular (or in fact as groundbreaking) as before.


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## Scali (Aug 3, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> If anything the musicianship of Cantrell and Kim Thayil was such that whilst competant players they really didn't need to shred to impress.


 
Well, shred was never a requirement.
I think it's more about being a solid player, and knowing how to work inside your limitations.
I guess a great example is the Beatles. None of them were virtuoso players on any instrument... but they never 'overplayed' themselves. They could deliver a solid performance, with a good sound, tight rhythm and proper intonation. So although it was relatively simple, it sounded good, so they didn't SOUND like limited musicians, unlike most grunge artists.
They also knew to bring in guest musicians to make songs better.


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## Hawkevil (Aug 3, 2009)

Scali said:


> Slash is actually a pretty decent guitarist in terms of speed and pyrotechnics (or at least, he was back in the GnR days). I wouldn't put him in the same list as Bellamy or Grohl. He doesn't often shred it up, but at the end of Paradise City, he lays down some pretty impressive runs. The stuff he did on Michael Jackon's Give in to me isn't bad either. And ofcourse Slash pairs that speed with a great tone, killer bends and vibratos and very unique, instantly recognizable phrasing.
> 
> Bellamy lacks control if you ask me, his intonation and vibrato don't sound very solid... and he generally has horrible tone aswell. I can't recall Grohl ever playing anything melodic anyway.
> 
> ...


 

You clearly know what you are talking about and i'm not trying to take that away from you. It's just the example I was giving is that a guitar player doesn't have to shred to be considered good in my opinion. A good player is someone who can write good songs and of course they have to be able to execute that in their playing. 

Take for example, a general songwriter who writes pop tunes for pop artists. He may not beable to sing a note in key but he can write the music. This makes him a good songwriter not a good vocalist. Where as, what I am saying is to be a good guitarist you have to beable to write songs and also play them solidly. Which is why I gave examples of compatent guitar players.


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## Scali (Aug 3, 2009)

Hawkevil said:


> Take for example, a general songwriter who writes pop tunes for pop artists. He may not beable to sing a note in key but he can write the music. This makes him a good songwriter not a good vocalist.


 
What I like is when they know their limitations and just write the songs, and have them performed by people more capable of doing so.
I mean... I can't stand someone like Alanis Morissette... Yea, she's written some decent songs, but I can't stand her singing. Let's face it, she's a horrible singer. Perhaps she should have had someone else perform them.
I can't sing, but I *know* I can't sing, so I either stick to instrumental music, or I have someone else sing.


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## TonalArchitect (Aug 3, 2009)

I would like to say that I think being a good musician does not equate to being a good songwriter/composer, by which I mean that I believe people can be good musicians without writing any songs, good or otherwise.


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## Scali (Aug 3, 2009)

TonalArchitect said:


> I would like to say that I think being a good musician does not equate to being a good songwriter/composer, by which I mean that I believe people can be good musicians without writing any songs, good or otherwise.


 
Yea, there's something to be said for that aswell. In classical music it's very common for musicians to only play other people's work... but with most modern music, bands generally play their own work... so then it immediately shows when you're not a good songwriter... This happened aswell in the 80s... you had quite a few Van Halen/Malmsteen clones who couldn't write a song, so the song just sounded like an excuse for the guitarist to show his shredding skills. These guys gave shredding a bad name, which may ultimately have led to the counter-movement of grunge.
But the better 80s guitarists could obviously write songs... Van Halen, Bon Jovi, Mr. Big... those guys had great songs.

But there are ofcourse also session musicians, who generally don't write their own music.. Two of my favourite guitarists are Steve Lukather and Andy Timmons, and those are longtime session guys. They have this knack for giving a song just the riff or hook that it needs. Or really tasteful fills and lead playing.


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## S-O (Aug 3, 2009)

Meh, music tastes vary so much it is difficult to say what is good and bad.

I like playing fast, but I know I'd get my ass kicked if I ever tried to jam with the blues guys. I try not to think much of people if their tastes in music are different. Hell, I know mine can be way out there. I lvoe shred guys, from prog to tech to fusion, but I also love some of the wacky. Like Primus and Mr Bungle. Some of the more experimental bands I dig too, like Behold... The Arctopus and the Dillinger Escape Plan, hell even Meshuggah are kinda experimental. I am not into much -core, but there are some great grindcore and hardcore music out there. I tend to like a lot of mathcore bands though.

Hell, doesn't even have to be physical instruments, Venetian Snares and Aphex twin are fucking great to me.


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## Uncle Remus (Aug 3, 2009)

Scali said:


> But there are ofcourse also session musicians, who generally don't write their own music.. Two of my favourite guitarists are Steve Lukather and Andy Timmons, and those are longtime session guys. They have this knack for giving a song just the riff or hook that it needs. Or really tasteful fills and lead playing.


 
Although Andy Timmons is also a great songwriter


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## Scali (Aug 4, 2009)

Uncle Remus said:


> Although Andy Timmons is also a great songwriter


 
So is Steve Lukather... It's just not the main thing they're famous for... Even if they'd never written any songs themselves, they'd still be the same revered session guitarists. So that supports the notion that you don't need to be a good songwriter to be a great guitarist.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 4, 2009)

Harry said:


> AIC guitarist Jerry Cantrell is a very skilled guitarist with plenty of chops, far more than the average bedroom shredder.
> I've seen plenty of players try to emulate his solos and they fall completely flat because they are nowhere near as fluid as Cantrell.
> He also player a modern a G&L super strat guitar, not a telecaster.





Konfyouzd said:


> grunge gave us jerry cantrell


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