# Because it needs to be seen...



## Daemoniac (Apr 13, 2011)

A look at the extreme bias in the media in recent history , the changes in style of reporting, and the effect "embedded" journalists on the recent Iraq conflict and several others over the last few decades.


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## jymellis (Apr 13, 2011)

i dont see much change in journalism in the last , well,, history of man lol.think of it this way. the bible, is that journalism? is it true? what about columbus day and everything taught in school? was he a "good guy"? how about vietnam? how many soldiers really killed women and children? your catching a version of a story. that is all. i dont see any change in journalism. its always pretty much been bullshit


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## Daemoniac (Apr 13, 2011)

I've noticed a change, not as in "there never used to be biased news" but it's getting harder and harder to find news that actually TRIES to be balanced and not force someone elses ideals down your throat (yes, I'm looking at you, FOX and CNN...)

EDIT: For example, over here, SBS is the only channel which gives "just" facts, plain and unadorned with any bias or motive, just as they are. Unlike, say, Channel 7 which tells us some of the facts (which a lot of the time are so twisted they may as well be outright lies) which pertain to their goal and which convey the message they want to give us, wholly ignoring the rest of the story...


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## cwhitey2 (Apr 13, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> (yes, I'm looking at you, FOX and CNN...)



Any time i need a good laugh, one of two things comes to mind. Comedy Central....and Bill O'Reilly. The shit that comes out of that mans mouth blows my mind


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## Daemoniac (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm over laughing at FOX, it used to make me laugh until I realised there are people who take that shit seriously, and get spoon-fed the tripe they call "news".


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## cwhitey2 (Apr 13, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> I'm over laughing at FOX, it used to make me laugh until I realised there are people who take that shit seriously, and get spoon-fed the tripe they call "news".



And that is exactly why i laugh. Because i while im laughing theres a dumb fuck who is getting riled up over bullshit that is either not true or the facts are 'distorted'. I generally don't watch the news, because i find it depressing...oh and i don't believe a word anyone says.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 13, 2011)

My problem with that is that those people then go on to make important decisions and affect the country they live in based on grossly exaggerated/incomplete/completely fabricated "facts".


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## cwhitey2 (Apr 13, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> My problem with that is that those people then go on to make important decisions and affect the country they live in based on grossly exaggerated/incomplete/completely fabricated "facts".



 

Welcome to politics 101

Manipulate the truth till it suites your agenda


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## Daemoniac (Apr 13, 2011)

That's fine for politicians, but this is exactly my (and the documentaries') point; Journalism should not be like that, it's how we decide if we should believe the politicians bullshit.


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## espman (Apr 15, 2011)

jymellis said:


> i dont see much change in journalism in the last , well,, history of man lol.think of it this way. the bible, is that journalism? is it true? what about columbus day and everything taught in school? was he a "good guy"? how about vietnam? how many soldiers really killed women and children? your catching a version of a story. that is all. i dont see any change in journalism. its always pretty much been bullshit


 This. History is written by the victor, and they can change the story to make them seem like the good guys no matter what actually happened. IMO 90% of journalism is complete bullshit


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## Daemoniac (Apr 16, 2011)

History =/= journalism, and the point of journalism is to convey the facts, not part of the facts. It's something I've heard touted so much, but rarely actually see on the part of the journalists themselves.

I am well aware of the fact that most modern journalists are fucked and that there are very few that are fair and balanced in the slightest, but that is exactly the point; they should be. People are being misled, and the general public _needs_ to be more demanding in that regard. How is anyone supposed to make an educated decision if they are not getting ALL the facts?


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## xtrustisyoursx (Apr 16, 2011)

Journalism has always been biased. It can't help but be. It's just that nowadays we can have any bias we want, as biased as we want, 24/7/365 whereas in the past we didn't have that kind of access to options.


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## Meatbucket (Apr 16, 2011)

Thank you for posting this Daemoniac.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 16, 2011)

xtrustisyoursx said:


> Journalism has always been biased. It can't help but be. It's just that nowadays we can have any bias we want, as biased as we want, 24/7/365 whereas in the past we didn't have that kind of access to options.



But does that mean we (you know what I mean) shouldn't _try_ to make it as fair as it possibly can be?

I guess people are generally too apathetic to actually do anything about it.


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## Trembulant (Apr 16, 2011)

Fox is great , and no i wouldn't call it "news", news is timmy got trapped in a well, someones house burned down, whatever.. it's mostly commentary and when i watch it that's what i'm watching it for.

People who say "people actually think it's news,.. lol" like the people watching it don't know what they're watching  They have no idea what those people think it is, and are the idiots to assume. Some of it is news, and some of it is commentary and debate.

Also, i don't believe everything i hear, i'll take a look at it on my own and decide what i think. But i tend to agree mostly with the general ideals presented there. I really cannot understand anyone with a open and half educated mind that is not easily swayed by hyperbole watch fox and msnbc back to back and not see where the hyper distortion and hate mongering is coming from.  

There are still times i don't agree with things said on Fox and think the facts should be checked by whoever said them, but like anyone people sometimes say things off the cuff, big deal. Only a moron believes everything they hear without exception. I think you'd find more people that watch Fox would tend to be more open minded and critical of things than you'de expect, where's the 2 or 3 people who are watching msnbc at any given time have one mode, "Yeah, fuck them fuck this fuck that arrgghh, i don't even know why i'm mad arggh!"


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 16, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Fox is great , and no i wouldn't call it "news", news is timmy got trapped in a well, someones house burned down, whatever.. it's mostly commentary and when i watch it that's what i'm watching it for.
> 
> People who say "people actually think it's news,.. lol" like the people watching it don't know what they're watching  They have no idea what those people think it is, and are the idiots to assume. Some of it is news, and some of it is commentary and debate.
> 
> ...




1. Fix your grammar
2. Your sentences......I don't even.
3. Did you mean, "faux", news?


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## Daemoniac (Apr 16, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> Fox is great , and no i wouldn't call it "news", news is timmy got trapped in a well, someones house burned down, whatever.. it's mostly commentary and when i watch it that's what i'm watching it for.
> 
> People who say "people actually think it's news,.. lol" like the people watching it don't know what they're watching  They have no idea what those people think it is, and are the idiots to assume. Some of it is news, and some of it is commentary and debate.
> 
> ...



I know people who watch it exclusively and take it as gospel when it comes to "current affairs".

That is why it enrages me.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 16, 2011)

We're lucky in that the UK is fairly unbiased, but certainly not innocent. The American media however aare fucking sharks. They lie to their country daily and show no remorse. They influence politics negatively and just for money. Imo it's probably one of the greatest acts of terrorism along with 9/11, and I'm not exaggerating.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 16, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> The American media however aare fucking sharks. They lie to their country daily and show no remorse. They influence politics negatively and just for money. Imo it's probably one of the greatest acts of terrorism along with 9/11, and I'm not exaggerating.



 on all counts there.


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## Trembulant (Apr 16, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> I know people who watch it exclusively and take it as gospel when it comes to "current affairs".
> 
> That is why it enrages me.



i can see that yeah, people need to think for themselves. i see it as well and will say something when i hear someone maybe not looking at a situation from all angles and at least questioning it. 




Stealthtastic said:


> 1. Fix your grammar
> 2. Your sentences......I don't even.
> 3. Did you mean, "faux", news?



yes, i have a habit of run on sentences and use commas a lot.
i type kinda of like i'm talking, i actually don't give much of a shit in forums. it's legible and it's not a term paper so fuck it,..and fuck the grammar police.
my nuts your face


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 16, 2011)

Recently a few big newspapers (All under the control of a certain Rupert Murdoch) in the UK were exposed for phone hacking various politicians and celebrities. Anyone involved in that act right to the very top should be put in prison. 

News companies aren't interested in informing the public anymore. They want to sell the news, and that means picking and choosing what the public get to know. And if you control these news companies, whats to stop you influencing the truth to further your own opinions?

We are in an age where every aspect of our lives is controlled by governments and the media. These are things made to serve the people, a nible purpose, and yet they have strayed onto a path of greed and terrorism.




And on Fox, that network is probably the biggest load of shit I've ever seen. It's essentially all those crazy bastards you see on the street screaming 'the end is near! repent!' except they get on television. Going to Fox for news is like going to a whore house for a cuddle.


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## jaredowty (Apr 16, 2011)

I agree with Daemoniac, it's pretty clear that journalism has gotten considerably worse and more unscrupulous in the last thirty years. Newspapers especially are more vulnerable than ever, and will sensationalize just about anything to sell papers. As for Fox, CNN, MSNBC etc, those are entertainment channels in my eyes. I take everything said on them with a grain of salt.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 16, 2011)

I can't say it's got "worse", but I can say that given the new avenues for getting information (the internet mainly...) and how quickly information travels, I feel like it *should* be getting better, not worse...

The more I feel like that too, the more I'm totally with people like Assange.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 16, 2011)

I'm starting to side more with Assange that I initially did. I still think the way he leaked the information was ineffective, instead of leaking so many documents he should have leaked the most important ones to get important matters dealt with, and then release the other ones later as support. Releasing them all at once means the actual details are glossed over in the wake of the actual leaking itself. I saw more news reports concerned with Assange's leaking of the documents rather than the leaked documents themselves.


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## Adam Of Angels (Apr 16, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> I really cannot understand anyone with a open and half educated mind that is not easily swayed by hyperbole watch fox and msnbc back to back and not see where the hyper distortion and hate mongering is coming from.
> 
> There are still times i don't agree with things said on Fox and think the facts should be checked by whoever said them, but like anyone people sometimes say things off the cuff, big deal. Only a moron believes everything they hear without exception. I think you'd find more people that watch Fox would tend to be more open minded and critical of things than you'de expect, where's the 2 or 3 people who are watching msnbc at any given time have one mode, "Yeah, fuck them fuck this fuck that arrgghh, i don't even know why i'm mad arggh!"




You are literally being hypocritical here. What's the difference between someone hating on Fox news and you? You take a side and spout bullshit about "them" and they do the same. The same kinds of people that follow Fox news follow MSNBC news, it's just a matter of which side of the act they favor. This may come as a shock to you, but both sources are almost completely full with horse shit. Both sides fool their viewers. They don't employ journalists and reporters with opinions, they employ actors that stick to the script and push whatever agenda the big guys deem necessary. If you don't see that, they're doing a good job.


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## -42- (Apr 16, 2011)

Before watching a network, check who the parent company is, and what axe they have to grind.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 16, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You are literally being hypocritical here. What's the difference between someone hating on Fox news and you? You take a side and spout bullshit about "them" and they do the same. The same kinds of people that follow Fox news follow MSNBC news, it's just a matter of which side of the act they favor. This may come as a shock to you, but both sources are almost completely full with horse shit. Both sides fool their viewers. They don't employ journalists and reporters with opinions, they employ actors that stick to the script and push whatever agenda the big guys deem necessary. If you don't see that, they're doing a good job.



 Again.


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## jaredowty (Apr 17, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> I can't say it's got "worse"



Except it has. Take a look at the investigative coverage of Watergate then compare it to Iraq. Look at the horseshit winning Pulitzers nowadays. Yes, people will always be biased and will always lie, but that doesn't mean that standards of journalism aren't decaying.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 17, 2011)

I can't say it's got worse because I wasn't around in the 60s, 70s and 80s... All I know is that it's fucking atrocious these days.


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## Trembulant (Apr 17, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You are literally being hypocritical here. What's the difference between someone hating on Fox news and you? You take a side and spout bullshit about "them" and they do the same. The same kinds of people that follow Fox news follow MSNBC news, it's just a matter of which side of the act they favor. This may come as a shock to you, but both sources are almost completely full with horse shit. Both sides fool their viewers. They don't employ journalists and reporters with opinions, they employ actors that stick to the script and push whatever agenda the big guys deem necessary. If you don't see that, they're doing a good job.




Bang your head all you want bud, you haven't a clue about me.

Question. Do you even watch it or any other of the same type of media channel on either side of the spectrum or both? 
That is usually the question i have for people who say these sorts of things. It pretty much seems like the answer is usually no, since i never get the answer.. I'd be willing to bet you haven't spent 1 hour watching Fox if that.
And i mean watching and listening, and thinking about the views expressed maybe for a day or a week and at the end going oh man that is bs, or otherwise (any channel for that matter or newspaper ect). If i'm wrong and you have then good (thankfully for fuck sake) however i seriously doubt it. People who say things like "faux news" imo have even ever watched it at all ever. They are just repeating some dumb fuck line that somebody made up to sound cool or like they know something or that they think it will get under someones skin. But no, it just makes them a moron.

Like i said, i make up my own mind. I do however agree with the fundamentals expressed there. I grew up pretty liberal. The music scene and artists in general usually lean towards the liberal side of things no secret there, and i get that and kind of have my opinion why. 

Only once i started even caring about any of this stuff did i actually search out "what i believe" or what i "choose to believe" if you will.
Because honestly i just thought the same sort of shit everyone else does, without even finding it for myself. 
#1 (your gonna love this but) Rush Limbaugh, he's evil right? He's like the biggest puppet of big corporations ever right and everything he says is evil right? Well, that's what i always thought and i didn't even know why. I was just some sort of thing everybody knows, right.
But i thought, wait, i don't actually know. How could i, i never listened to him.
So i said why not check it out for myself instead of just believing what i hear in the media, and being the same clueless dipshit as everyone else. Have you ever done that? Or are you too close minded to listen and not let it bother you if you disagree and just move on? Most won't even bother, why? Cause they're happy believing what they believe weather it's the truth or not.

Well, i decided to see for myself, and, what the fuck? Well he's not all that shit i always hear about, weird, in fact, yeah i think i agree with him in a way on a lot of this shit,..strange..wonder why i always thought all that shit about him,..hmnn, could it be that ALL i ever heard about him was that he is evil, corporate puppet, ect ect..? Wonder why they tried so hard to make me think that, maybe so i would never go and listen to him cause i might actually agree? Pretty eye opening to me how i and i know millions of other people are swayed in the exact same way.
After that i started to realize that in general my entire life i have been force fed the liberal biased side of things from school to music to movies ect. I decided to take a look at "the enemy".

In my opinion now, i find that in general the enemy was not actually so much the enemy. And found it refreshing to agree with some if it as is actually the way things work in the world. That is why you have people who are successful and on the other side people who bitch about them. They don't want to believe that's how it works and all it does is make them upset and mad at the world. 

I'd rather win. In my mind i see from a fundamental zero point why it works, how it has worked, and why the opposite fails. 
I still believe everyone should choose their own path, decide what they feel is right. I don't think most will even get to that point till your in your mid 30's possibly 40 and or have some kids. I guarantee your view point will change in one way or another from what you thought you believed in your teens and 20's. In fact it pretty much happens to everyone in one way or another. 

This is where i arrived, and i'm am happy and have in my opinion a much better clarity for my _own_ vision. So whatever gets you there and if it's working for you, Great! But i cannot now let the slander against prosperity go on unabashed when there are teens and 20 somethings reading these forums there should be some balance, they hear the liberal crap day in and day out, they should at least get some perspective from both sides. 
Us as musicians being in general "free thinkers" should be able to agree on that, unless you are not really a free thinker at all.
I can dig John Lennon for a moment and try and see it his way, but ultimately think he's wrong, same as i can listen to Deicide or Emperor or whatever just the same. I'd like to hear some sick metal with a more fuck socialism message and more powerful positive messages, now that would be true cult. Instead of these guys who think they are going against the grain and so "empowered" "Free thinkers" when they are really snot nosed punks who eventually blow their brains out cause they can't handle it and or kill their friends or live off the government in their liberal socialist countries cause they can't function correctly. 
Hey didn't the guy from Dissection kill himself, that's too bad, killer band, some of my favorite albums. What a looser.

I think everyone wishes the world was a perfect utopia for every person, but it's not. It never will be and in my opinion it's not supposed to be anyway. That is why people have free will, why people can be greedy or not, why people want to win more than others, why in nature the strongest survives. In fact it is the very essence of Life. That is how i arrived where i am today. What i see from the left is weakness and lies in the every essence of the philosophy. It goes against nature at it's core, therefore i believe it is wrong. And yes there are lies everywhere yes even of Fox news it's inevitable. It is what it is and i am not brainwashed. I do think i was much worse off before and i am glad to be snapping out of it.
Most never will, so i am proud of myself that i have at least moved forward. Best of luck to everyone else in this life and i'm not being sarcastic. 

Anyway about the younger crowd what i am seeing a lot more of is how the liberal media affects them. In my opinion they think they are thinking for themselves but they are not. It is so ingrained you wouldn't even know it or believe it was until you took a long hard serious look at what "you think you believe". 

I grew up same as everybody, probably with a lot of the same views as kids have and a lot of it is what all kids think and the rebellion against society we all go through it. But at some time hopefully you grow out of it to a degree. I am still growing, and till the day i die i hope i keep growing.
I know people in their 60's and 70's who seem like they quit mentally growing decades earlier.. Maybe my views would change many times again. However i know right now i am better off than i was 10 years ago, and i feel have a much better perspective on things. I don't think i know it all, or much at all for that matter. But for me, i'm better off now than i was before, and at this moment i am disgusted at the propaganda i see coming from the left in America. I have always hated socialism in any form anyway. I grew up in the cold war, Russia was the enemy (the government and ideals). I have friends now that grew up in the Soviet Union and we talk and found we were afraid of the same things when we were kids, ironic. Different sides of the spectrum, propaganda coming at us from either side. I can tell you that None of them would ever want to go back to Soviet Russia in any way shape or form, and in their opinion they think America is heading right down that path. In their own words "it's very scary" "i never thought America would be going like this". Why do you think they came here in the first place?

That is a pretty good and frightening sign to me. And the weird thing is so many people think it would be a good thing if we went that direction. So yeah, Fuck that and fuck them. 

And when i see bullshit coming from the right or Fox news, Fuck that too.

The reason i even post when i hear someone bash what i believe is not only healthy and very relevant today in what is going on in my country, and people who randomly bash some views or "faux news" just shows me they are ignorant and i *will* step in to offer my opinion on the matter cause it needs to be said and hardly get's enough airplay in this type of forum. A shit ton of Leftist views do tho and you cannot deny that so how bout lets even it out a little? 
Hardly any kid that is posting here is going to say anything that would piss off their forum hero god shredder with the most evil avatar elite lefty views and all the cool videos and custom guitars. 

But I personally don't give a flying fuck what anybody thinks about me. 
They don't know me. I know what kind of person i am. If someone can't take it and immediately thinks your a dick for something you said or believe, fuck them, they aren't worth my time. I don't judge so easily. Even if i disagree with someone i still treat them the same as a friend unless or until someone lies to me or rips me off or harms someone i care about.
If i tell you to fuck off, fuck off, then get over it. I don't hate you, i'm just telling you to fuck off, like i tell my friends when they should fuck off, and they do the same back. 


Oh and i don't give a shit about rep or whatever it is i keep getting neg'd on, lol, i'm not into your forum popularity contest.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 17, 2011)

I don't even know where to start with that post dude, it's all over the place.

What this thread is about is getting unfettered fact from the news, that is all. I do not want social commentary, bias, suggestive headlines or fear-mongering, just facts. If three Palestinians (or Israeli's for that matter) are killed, and that is all that is known, I don't want to be hearing/reading "Three terrorists killed," "terrorists murder three innocent people," or some other equally suggestive and totally biased representation of falsified events, I want to hear just that; three people were killed. Nothing more, nothing less than what is _known_.

It's all well and good to say that anyone with half a brain will make up their own mind, but the thing about that is people have to be getting _the facts_ in the first place, and that simply is not happening - people aren't meant to "make up their mind" about the facts, they're meant to make up their mind on _why_ the events occurred and who is in the right regarding them.


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## Adam Of Angels (Apr 17, 2011)

Trembulant said:


> I believe the BS on Fox News and you don't get it because you are liberal scum



I simply paraphrased, there..

Just a few things, since I figure smashing my head off the wall would be far more productive than even considering that you do actually think for yourself

1. I regularly watch all of the big news stations in order to get an idea of what the bigger picture of current events is. As a result, I'm sickened to think that anybody would actually be swayed by the agenda-driven bias presented there. It's all a joke. If you watch Fox, MSNBC, CNN, etc, you don't just get the news, you have opinions and agendas driven by corporate and political interest shoved down your throat to the point where you actually believe it. 

2. Dissections front man killed his self because it was part of a belief system he had, not because he was depressed or a failure. He believed that if you took your own life at the peak of it, you effectively took control of your karmic cycle and set your spirit free. I don't agree with his views, but just because you don't understand somebody's way of thinking, it doesn't make you superior.

3. Rush is an actor/tool, and so are the people on the opposite side of the spectrum that talk shit on him so that you'll instead believe their agenda. Again, what is the difference between somebody who tells you that Rush is evil and can't be trusted, and Rush, who tells you that liberals are evil and can't be trusted? There is no difference other than the position they take. If you believe either side, you take a side, and at that point you've failed to see the big picture.

4. America is far from a Socialist nation and it probably never will be one. you're just believing the shit you see on TV. We decide we may socialize medicine to an extent and all of the sudden we're socialists? Hmmm... Now let's see... The big pharmaceutical companies make a lot of money and have a lot of power and political pull because of it... So what do you think would happen if somebody stepped in and tried to do something that threatens their power? They'd probably have you believe that person is a terrorist, anti-patriotic, evil socialist that wants to see you and your family suffer. You know, realistic stuff like that.



Like I said, if you've picked a side, you're just worshipping the machine. Both sides are agenda driven. It's been said more than once before that if you keep people divided, they're easy to control. I'm sure you'll interpret all of this as "liberal hogwash", because you're trained to do so, but, fuck liberals, fuck conservatives, and fuck this BS child's play that is keeping us pressed to the ground indefinitely.


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## Jakke (Apr 17, 2011)

We are lucky here in Sweden, since the largest TV-channels are publicly funded, i.e owned by the Swedes (haha, laugh now to get it over with). But when I watch an american news show I get tempted to laugh, but I don't, since it's just sad. I can't see how that kind of biased crap can be allowed to reach the air, I seriously don't. You would have to follow most of the networks to get a relatively unbiased view on current events, and how many americans have the time to do that?


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## orb451 (Apr 17, 2011)

Plain-Jane news doesn't sell. Why do you people think there's so much spin (Left or Right) from news channels and networks? Because it fucking sells. Jesus. H. Christ. You're not going to get unbiased, "just the facts ma'am" reporting because it's boring. It's not exciting. It doesn't sell ad space or increase viewership.

I know it's a bitter pill to swallow but you folks really need to understand that. Yeah yeah yeah, I know, you already figured that out, you're sooooooo smart. Give yourselves another pat on the back. Now let it sink in and you'll understand the media's place in US society. Unless, like the Swedish dude above mentioned, you want to go with publicly funded news across the board, you're going to get bias. My question to you is, so what's the big fucking deal?

Seriously, are people that threatened by someone else's viewpoints that they feel the need to constantly put them down? What's that old adage about someone that bashes someone else non-stop? That they do it just to make themselves feel better. Yeah, pretty much that.

There's room in the sandbox for *everyone's views*. If Fox News is the bane of your reality, change the channel. Or watch, as an exercise and *try* to actually listen to what some of them have to say and then make up your mind about it. Oh right, you don't have to, you already know what they're saying, you've already made up your mind. That's all I hear from people bashing Fox News and other biased networks/channels, that they already arrived at the conclusion that Fox News and anything that runs contrary to what they're used to hearing is evil and bad.

Look at music as an example of a body of work, art, creativity and expression and now think about all the different genres and bands and so on that you can listen to and enjoy, or hate. News reporting and politics in general, are the same fucking way. There's well known players in the spot light and other, less known, or unsung heroes that report honestly and with integrity. Just as there's pop bands making major bucks selling tripe and small, less well-known bands struggling to make a living, but producing what *some* of us would argue is better art.

See the correlation? Are you connecting the dots? It's expression, just another form of expression. There's room for big corporate cock smoker networks and room for academic, know-it-all publicly funded news networks and room for every size and type in between. 

The wisdom of age that Trembulant aptly pointed out, is getting over your teenage angst and mid-20's rage against "the machine". When you get older you'll find peace and happiness in the little things and you'll stop sweating the small stuff. You'll also learn to live and let live for the most part and you'll recognize things for what they are, without the need to bust a nut over them. To quote a favorite movie line "How are you going to learn *anything* new when you know everything already?"

I'm conservative (compared to some of you) and I learn from you jack-holes on a regular basis. It might not change my mind and it might not sway my opinion or beliefs but I welcome the left, right and center viewpoints. I can watch Fox News, John Stewart, Bill Maher and Sean Hannity and not walk away ready to have an aneurysm. Because I recognize where they're coming from, who and what they are and leave it at that.

I think if you people can't learn to do the same, you're going to have a really hard time in life. Seriously.


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## Adam Of Angels (Apr 17, 2011)

I think you're exaggerating our (or at least my) take on all of this. Personally, I live and let live when it comes to most things. This particular conversation, however, is about how the direction of society is formed by the media and biased journalism. That IS a big deal. Live and let live all you want, but I see and hear people around me every day that are clearly swayed to believe the BS that is fed to them and they make important life choices based on it. It doesn't stop at politics either - it leads people to believe that the world is a hostile, hateful place, and that their health is constantly compromised, amongst other things. The world is shaped by the things we hear in the media.. And it's even more dangerous when that BS is being spread around 2nd hand. 

What am I going to do about it? Not shove my views down someone's throat, but I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't matter, either.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

Getting your news from any single source is moronic, however 'reliable' you think it may be. I watch American news reports, newspapers and online articles to get a more rounded view of events, but even then the truth can be hard to find.


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## spattergrind (Apr 17, 2011)

Ahh politics, doesn't it bring the best out of people? 
But its hard to not talk about it. 

-Good video though. Its fucked up.

People also need to watch this:


The thing about the explosions on the building are kinda iffy (im on the fence with that one)


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## 1000 Eyes (Apr 17, 2011)

The media is a closed shop owned by the few to influence the many, well that's how I see it anyway.

For example the two largest news wire services, Reuters and The Associated Press, are owned by the Rothschild family. These news services effectively sell the news to the rest of the world.

Just like Murdoch owning Fox and Sky and loads of newspapers also..Berlusconi in Italy as another example...what a joke!

Turn the TV off altogether...your quality of life will improve!


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

Ignoring the world is what most people do no anyway, and it is the wrong way to make things better. What more people have to do is be assertive, push themselves to take control of the media and governments that say they serve them. The people need to _want_ to be in the know, instead of being ignorant. It is obvious when we're being lied to, we just choose not to acknowledge it because to seek out the truth requires effort. It is much easier to live a life of ignorance.


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## ArkaneDemon (Apr 17, 2011)

orb451 said:


> live and let live
> 
> I'm conservative



Sounds legit.


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## orb451 (Apr 17, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I think you're exaggerating our (or at least my) take on all of this. Personally, I live and let live when it comes to most things. This particular conversation, however, is about how the direction of society is formed by the media and biased journalism. That IS a big deal. Live and let live all you want, but I see and hear people around me every day that are clearly swayed to believe the BS that is fed to them and they make important life choices based on it. It doesn't stop at politics either - it leads people to believe that the world is a hostile, hateful place, and that their health is constantly compromised, amongst other things. The world is shaped by the things we hear in the media.. And it's even more dangerous when that BS is being spread around 2nd hand.
> 
> What am I going to do about it? Not shove my views down someone's throat, but I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't matter, either.




I don't know how you can say you're "live and let live" if you're getting that worked up about what *you* personally consider BS journalism being fed to the masses. If people are making "important life choices" whatever the hell that even means in this context, on news they get from Fox or what have you, my question still stands, so fucking what? What's the big deal?

The world will not end, life will go on. And in time, perhaps the people will change their mind or their views. That's not apathy, that's life. That's how it works. You think you just pick a spot on the spectrum and stay in one place your whole life? What you do today might change tomorrow and so on. It's a non-issue. And especially if people are letting major news outlets guide their decision on whom to vote for, or what rally to attend and so on, big fucking deal. Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth personally Adam, I mean in general. Let people make up their own minds and go their own way. What one might consider BS, is another person's gold. It's funny to argue live and let live to Liberals (from my view point) because it's usually *their* mantra, not mine. 

I know to most of you it probably feels like things are changing for the worse and that it's all going down the shitter and that people are reaching new and exciting levels of bias and violence and hate, and blah blah blah but look, it's not new. Not in the least. The only thing that's really new is the number of people that are connected or aware of one another thanks to the internet. 

And let me clue you into something you might not be aware of, the world *is* a hostile, hateful place. As is life in general. Oh right, the world is what you make of it right? That kind of flowery rhetoric is fine for the individual and breaks down almost immediately if you try to apply it on a large scale. You want to solve the worlds problems and make the whole planet a better place? Learn to accept your weaknesses and strengths, let people make up their own minds, understand that not everyone will think and feel the way you do. So easy a caveman could do it.


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## spattergrind (Apr 17, 2011)




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## 1000 Eyes (Apr 17, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Ignoring the world is what most people do no anyway, and it is the wrong way to make things better. What more people have to do is be assertive, push themselves to take control of the media and governments that say they serve them. The people need to _want_ to be in the know, instead of being ignorant. It is obvious when we're being lied to, we just choose not to acknowledge it because to seek out the truth requires effort. It is much easier to live a life of ignorance.



I did not say to ignore the world, I said to turn off the TV, its not the same.

Everybody wants to be in the know dude, nobody wants to be lied to repeatedly. Most people would stay away from ignorance given the chance. But the game is rigged, people dont realise they are being mis-led and so show no interest.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

orb451 said:


> I don't know how you can say you're "live and let live" if you're getting that worked up about what *you* personally consider BS journalism being fed to the masses. If people are making "important life choices" whatever the hell that even means in this context, on news they get from Fox or what have you, my question still stands, so fucking what? What's the big deal?
> 
> The world will not end, life will go on. And in time, perhaps the people will change their mind or their views. That's not apathy, that's life. That's how it works. You think you just pick a spot on the spectrum and stay in one place your whole life? What you do today might change tomorrow and so on. It's a non-issue. And especially if people are letting major news outlets guide their decision on whom to vote for, or what rally to attend and so on, big fucking deal. Again, I'm not trying to put words in your mouth personally Adam, I mean in general. Let people make up their own minds and go their own way. What one might consider BS, is another person's gold. It's funny to argue live and let live to Liberals (from my view point) because it's usually *their* mantra, not mine.
> 
> ...


 

I disagree. Mankind is growing, constantly struggling for survival on an international stage. More people are suffering at the hands of governments and corporations than every before, and the line between right and wrong is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish in internationa events. You can narrow it down to our own personal reactions to each others beliefs, but quite frankly individually we mean nothing. And what use is someones opinion if the very evidence they use to back it up is a lie force fed to them by a government only interested in furthering their own needs?

Everything we do is controlled by governments, corporations and the media. You're right, life will go on, but that sort of attitude is what allowed things to get to this point. Everyday people hear of suffering across the world and it doesn't concern them, because 'life goes on'. Well life doesn't go on for everyone. It doesn't go on for the hundreds of thousands of people, innocent people, killed in acts of terror at the hands of governments who have condemned terror acts themselves.

The fact of the matter is, the vast majority of the British and American public in particular don't give a shit about the rest of the world, and so when we march into other countries claiming a threat to national security, we trust them. We might question their judgement a bit, bit those people that do are few and don't hold enough weight to take anyones notice. And even if they do, a couple of conferences or news reports soon set the record straight. And so we continue, we believe things will work out for the better. And that is the whole reason we're in this mess at the moment, and why the middle east is a battle ground for the Western world. No one cares, and so nothing changes. We shouldn't accept the opinions of others, because when people are being killed in the thousands opinions don't mean shit, truth does. And if we aren't being told the truth, we need to be. If a couple of unpublished reports could've stopped the war in Iraq, I'd say thats a pretty big fucking deal.


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## jaredowty (Apr 17, 2011)

orb451 said:


> Plain-Jane news doesn't sell. Why do you people think there's so much spin (Left or Right) from news channels and networks? Because it fucking sells. Jesus. H. Christ. You're not going to get unbiased, "just the facts ma'am" reporting because it's boring. It's not exciting. It doesn't sell ad space or increase viewership.



Pretty interesting that you're getting so worked up over other people getting worked up. 

However, you're right on this. You can't single out blame on the media for giving the people what they want. How did the majority of American citizens become so apathetic, so uninterested in the truth, to accept the bullshit being passed off as news these days? The answer is much larger and more complex than any of us would like to admit, I think.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

I was watching a documentary on the Roswell conspiracy, and that brought up a lot of good points in relation to the American public's trust in their government. It wasn't until the cold war and Vietnam that people started to question the government, and as a result things got messy. Since then there has been a growing distrust between the people and governments. One survey found that I think it was 60% of all American's believed their government to be one of the biggest threats. During the first and second world war, the lines between good and bad were clearer. The Allied forces were seen as the good guys, and the people were behind them. Back then, everyone trusted in their troops and their government. However, with every passing war since then, governments reactions and control of things has been questioned increasingly, and so they've had to control the public to make sure the same mistakes don't happen again. Every war is a lesson on how to control the media and the public as a whole.


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## Adam Of Angels (Apr 17, 2011)

Yeah, to say "life goes on, leave it be" is straight up apathy. I'm not apathetic. There's a difference between respecting everyone's right to believe what they choose to believe, and sitting by while they're being lied to, then even acting on their belief of those lies. It's not a matter of them deciding their own perspective - they're made to feel powerless and therefore, they're easily informed by the media. The world is NOT inherently hostile and hateful. You've been lead to believe that it is.. Know why? Because that shit sells, just like you said. Fear is not only profitable, it keeps the majority at bay while whatever untold evil is done to keep those profits coming. Its truly sad that somebody wld consider life in general to be a thing of hate and hostility... Hate? Really? Get that right the fuck out of here. You probably think any notion to the contrary is "hippy new age nonsense", 
because thats a convenient cop-out. Sure, there is danger and hate in the world, but it's not in an abundance. You believe that garbage because you've been repeatedly reminded of why you believe it your whole life. So long as the majority believes it, though, we'll not advance much.

You may not understand this (or at least I have to assume so), but what people believe dictates what they do. What people do creates the world we live in. Therefore, there's a real problem if people are being fed lies. Never before in history have we, as a people, been so closely connected, and now, more than ever, our beliefs dictate our quality of life. Things ARE different today, and they're changing very rapidly. The fact that we're connected to each other completely changes the way things work... How could it not?


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 17, 2011)

This shit's been going on at _least_ since Pulitzer and Hearst in the late 1800s. There's nothing new or worse about it. If anything the overall situation has improved because now Joe Blow on the Go has the resources at hand to research the claims made by the media with the click of a button. How often he actually _does_ isn't really relevant, because in the good ol' days of yellow journalism he didn't even have the _option_.

That said, old-timey yellow journalism headlines are pretty amusing.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

Oh people have always put a spin on things, thats part of journalism. You need to sell a story. The difference is, it's never had such dramatic effects politically. Whole wars have been fought that could've been stopped by one news report. The media is not just putting a sin on things anymore, it's actively controlling our perception of the world as a whole, influencing how we vote and what we believe. These things have always gone on, but now they're getting bigger, more complex and the results more extreme. This is why I want to go out to some of these countries in the Middle East because I want to try and understand as best I can. None of us can truly say we see what is going on without witnessing it first hand. But the vast majority of people won't and because we refuse to show people the suffering that is happening in news reports, we figure it isn't that bad. In some places in central and south America news papers show a lot more graphic content, and that hasn't scared people, it's given them a great deal of respect for death. We never see it really, not the real shit.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 17, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> The difference is, it's never had such dramatic effects politically. Whole wars have been fought that could've been stopped by one news report. The media is not just putting a spin on things anymore, it's actively controlling our perception of the world as a whole, influencing how we vote and what we believe.


 
I'm still not entirely convinced that's a new thing. I don't know whether the UK educational system teaches much about the Spanish American war, but the Press had their sticky fingers all over its beginnings. 

I think it's _always_ influenced what people believe and how they vote, the primary difference now is the sheer number of people it can influence almost instantaneously. With that people also now have the ability to _choose_ what news outlets they want to be influenced by. As has been discussed above, it does seem to get to a point where it's hard to blame the media itself instead of its market.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

Okay maybe so, but regardless the effects are bigger now especialy with advanced weaponry. We don't even need to set foot in a country to kill thousands. Maybe this shit has always been happening, but it has been getting worse. It's all well and good saying we have a choice, but thats largely an illusion. We make a choice based on what we know, and if we aren't told everything how can we make an educated choice? The consumer is to blame as well, but the media have taken advantage of us.


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## orb451 (Apr 17, 2011)

Sorry I call bullshit. Things *have* been this bad with respect to Journalism since Eli Whitney or whomever, invented the printing press. If you think that a news report or some great unveiling of "truth" is going to stop a war or armed conflict I think you're mistaken.

You can *want* it to stop things from happening but it wouldn't and won't. Look at what's been unveiled by WikiLeaks so far. What's changed? Has the war stopped? Did things magically get better? Oh right, now's the part where you tell me that things don't happen overnight. Well you know what? You think you're in the first generation to open their eyes and say "hey, this is fucked up" about life, government or the world in general? Really? 

Don't even think that you're the first to do so because I assure you, you're not. WikiLeaks and the dummies behind it think, mistakenly, that by unveiling the ills of the worlds governments that things will change. Maybe not overnight, but that in the long run, the world will be a better, healthier place for all. The point is, it won't be. Not simply by letting people know who's behind the curtain. That line of thinking is naive. Changing the world, the country, the government or the state are time consuming. Revelation of truth is only as good as the people who care about that truth and then actually ACT on it.

The only thing that will change is who has access to information (READ the people that need it and who've proven themselves trustworthy). Security protocols, personnel screening, that's what WikiLeaks and revealing truth will get you. That and some much deserved time off in Club Fed. Not stopping battles, wars or conflicts. It'll change the way some diplomat or official sends information. It's not going to curb the flow of information or misinformation. And it certainly won't change government's behavior with respect to their modus operandi. It's business as usual. 

Even before WikiLeaks broke the news or "truth" with their own damned spin on it Obama ran for president on a promise to end the war(s) and bring the troops home. Has it happened? No. Even when they talk about closing up shop over there, the powers that be are forced to continually renege and hem and haw and say things like "oh well, we're not really sure at this point if we're going to go through a complete withdrawal, the situation is still delicate in Iraq" etc etc. 

So again, if you think that unveiling some journalistic truth is going to "right" the "wrongs" of the world, you're mistaken. You can continue to use your foregone conclusion that I'm only arriving at this position because I've been "told" or "brainwashed" or "learned" over many years if that makes you feel better and makes you want to continue to argue. 

The cold hard fact remains, you are in the minority. You're but one of a few that "give a shit" about this, that or the other thing. Compared to the average person on the street in the US and other developed countries, only a small percentage are going to give a shit if some tribe in Africa massacres another, or some family in India ends up homeless, etc etc. Call it apathy if you want to, my contention is that even when presented with the awful truths of war, life, conflict, poverty, etc people aren't going to be as concerned as maybe you *think* they should be. You think people in war-torn countries in Africa are worried about rallies in Wisconsin and what might happen to teachers there? Deny it all you want, people care about themselves. About their ability to live and exist. Impact those basic needs and shit gets ugly fast. And that's happening (and has happened throughout history) in countries without Fox News, without MSNBC, without access to mainstream Left or Right media.

Blame it on the media if you want to, blame it on Jodie Foster for all I care, that's the way it is. 

Here's a thought: So the president of the US has the power to start the war and yet that same office of power doesn't have the means necessary to end the war. Make sense?

And on the journalism side of things, just saying "oh well, spin has always happened" doesn't mitigate anything. Wars and battles have been started, fought and won or lost on less than a news report. Read Emerson's Concord Hymn. You think a news report "Lexington Minuteman thought to fire shot at British forces, actually just a loud fart" would have stopped things from happening? Or more accurately, saying that if only he'd waved his hands around and said "oops sorry, my bad" and acknowledged that he misfired or accidentally discharged his rifle, that the whole war would have been avoided? Come on...

Things will continue as they always have. If you Adam, think that life is flowers and roses, you're free to do so, but life is tough and the world is a harsh place. If mother nature herself isn't working on a way to end you, something or someone else will. That's the way it goes. It *is* a fight for survival and always has been. Truth will not get in the way of people going after what they want. Either as a government, a people or a country. 

Mankind is suffering *now* at the hands of big governments and corporations than it used to? What???? When? Like it did during the industrial revolution when kids were working in factories by the thousands? Gimme a break man. If you Ross, Adam and others want to believe the weight of the world's plights rest on a hopeless downward spiral of news and information and feel like, one, you're the first to feel that way, and two, that this is all so new and awful, and three, that pulling back that big ol' curtain on the "man" and his evil ways will do anything to change things, I feel bad for you. I really do.

Make peace with yourselves and the machine, make peace with the "man" and the system. Live happy, productive lives. Showing Average Joe the "truth" will only change things if/when Average Joe decides to care. That's my whole argument in a nutshell. You can show people the truth and they may or may not give a shit. My money is firmly on "not giving a shit". You guys seem to me, like you're thinking that you can cure common apathy simply be revealing things. I think you're mistaken, that's all.

And this doesn't even *touch* upon the fact that *you* keep using the word "lies". What lies? Lies about what? Big government and big corporations lie, about what? Please don't start with the whole illegal war in the Middle East, 9/11 truth, tin-foil hat bullshit again. What other lies is the government and media feeding us? What truth(s) do you think, if revealed, would rally people together and cause some kind of uprising, revolution or dramatic change?

Should have saved your neg rep Jaredowty, you could have used it on this post instead.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Apr 17, 2011)

orb451 said:


> Things *have* been this bad with respect to Journalism since Eli Whitney or whomever, invented the printing press.


 

...lol?


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## ArkaneDemon (Apr 17, 2011)

He invented the cotton gin.


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## orb451 (Apr 17, 2011)

lol, Gutenberg, that's who I was thinking of


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 17, 2011)

Oh man I don't know whether you were referring to other posts people have made or not, but if you were referring to me then you expanded/made up a lot of shit that I didn't say.

There's a lot there and I can't realy be bothered to talk about most of it, because it's 1am, but I'll be brief.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I believe there ae conspiracies, but I don't go looking for them. I don't believe 9/11 was a cover up for a start, however it has been proven time and time again that facts that could've perhaps stopped us going to Iraq were witheld. A lot of the 'reasons' we went in there have been shown to be flat out lies, or intel based on what some random guy said. 

As for me thinking I'm some sort of new age suburban freedom fighter who has opened their eyes to some massive conspiracy, no. Please don't try and lump me in with people like that to try and take the weight out of my side of the debate. I can't stand people who think they have seen the way but no one else has, I do however think that a large percentage of the public would rather ignore these issues and they must be pressed. We can't ignore the fact that the media and governments are getting increasingly daring in their manipulaion of the people, if you would rather just let things be and carry on as we are then fine but me personally I'd rather try and get people to face up to these issues.

As for wikileaks, that was an ineffective release of information due to the sheer amount that got leaked. How many news stories did you see reporting what was in those documents? Barely any. How many did you see reporting how it was 'a threat to national security' and generally talking about Assange and the leak? The content of the documents were overshadowed by the event itself, and so it didn't achieve anything. A clever spin by the powers that be? Or just misdirected public interest? Who knows, either way the wikileaks scanda wasn't as damaging as it could've been,

I don't believe that more honest press will suddenly make the woes of teh world go away, I never said that I don't believe. What I do think, is that a more educated public can respond truthfully to the plights of the world and may be a bit more respectful. There will always be pain and suffering, unfortunately it's part of human nature, but I'd rather face the world knowing what is out there and having the facts, than getting it all wrong and being shocked when the truth hits me. We get lied to every day by the press and governments, and they've had to admit it plenty of times.


Thats not as brief as I planned, but I feel your post in all honestly took the piss a bit and annoyed me. You spoke earlier about letting people have their opinions, understanding we won't all think the same and moving on, and yet you seem so eager to shoot mine down. Instead of responding in a respectful manner, you've twisted what I've said or lumped it in with the opinions of others, and generally been a bit patronising with it. You are a smart guy and I like you, but I don't like the tone of your posts and if you're going to respond with your opinion then by all means but have some taste.  I'm not trying to be a dick, I just felt you could've perhaps spoken your part a bit better.



Also like I said, it's 1am, ignore all the spelling mistakes and general bullshit.


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## orb451 (Apr 17, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> What Ross said



Points taken man  Look, I don't mean to be condescending to you, I really don't. Nor with Adam or anyone else on here but yes, I see how it comes out that way, or could perceived that way.

I don't have all the answers, I just have my opinions and you have yours and so on. I do believe that "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" sums it up for my view of people and truth in journalism, government and politics in general. 

I would disagree that the WikiLeaks was ineffective simply because they released so much at one time. Personally I think they were ineffective because a lot of the material wasn't worth getting in a twist over. Other stuff, like the names of informants and how their names being released had blow-back directly was scoffed at, downplayed and dismissed. And then yes, for a bunch of arguable reasons, I think the focus got shifted to Assange and his character. The whole thing turned into a sideshow and then faded from the spotlight. 

I drew some conclusions on at least *your* opinion on the matter at hand, you have corrected them. For that, thank you.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 17, 2011)

Alright, I had a bunch of posts multi-quoted, but I cannot be bothered to go over them individually... way too tired for that.

For the most part, Ross, I agree. I'm not saying all of a sudden the world will be a happy, flowery place where we dance with pixies and there is no war or unhappiness or poverty if _only_ the media can sort their shit out.

What I am saying is that I cannot abide the fact that there are people being killed in other countries, that there are wars being carried out on a wave of public support and so on because of an apathetic public being served a platter of outright lies and extreme bias instead of the truth. I'm not out to prove anything to people or to try and convince them they are wrong about the way that they view the world, I just feel that one (myself included) cannot honestly make decisions on important matters when they are not being properly informed.

Orb, you have your views and you have said it yourself; you search out the truth and make up your mind on what you find from multiple sources. That's great. I may not agree with you on some things, but you are not the problem in all this. In fact, if more people _were_ like that, then I probably wouldn't feel this strongly about it, because at least everyone would feel the urge to know what is happening and search it out.

Fact is though, like you said; Fox sells. CNN sells. MSNBC sells. Etc.. Etc.. and it is a terrible, terrible thing that people are so happy to pick one of these that fits their own bias and just live with that.


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## Adam Of Angels (Apr 17, 2011)

At orb:

Hey, man, it's all good - we know you're just a dick so we don't take you seriously.



Just kidding, bro. But, to the point: you're more or less suggesting that we not even bother talking about this, much less invest any sort of interest in it. I'm not going to bother addressing all of the points you made because most of them were completely off base as far as I'm concerned, but the bottom line is that if nobody cares, then nothing is accomplished. Sure, it may even be that the majority is apathetic, but all it takes is a few leading examples to make a difference. If not, then what hope is there? You may believe that nature, and therefore humans, is inherently out to get you, but that doesn't mean that it's true, and that doesn't mean I'm willing to submit. 

I think we're getting off track, though. We're talking about getting unbiased news. It's not that absurd of a concept. It's absurd that we aren't likely to get unbiased news anytime soon,


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## orb451 (Apr 17, 2011)

I hear ya, for the record though, I'm not arguing about discussing the topic at hand - unbiased journalism. I'm just arguing that getting worked up over it seems futile and a bit pointless because all the information is out there, the biased, the unbiased, the good, the bad and the ugly... Let people make up their own minds about it or whether to try and find it. The people with the biggest microphones will always overshadow others, for better or worse.

Regardless of the difference of opinion though, I've been called worse than Dick , no harm no foul


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 18, 2011)

I'm glad we've kept this debate level, cheers for being understanding Orb.

I do agree people need to _want_ to know the facts, and to form their own opinion based around personal research, but I think the public has been put into this sort of 'ignorance coma' where they haven't been exposed to the right information in the right way and so don't care about what happens half way across the world, and the wars they pay for. They complain their troops are getting killed when in reality far more innocent civilians are being slaughtered and yet we don't hear about them. Imagine if the US got invaded by Russia, and instead of complaining about the immense losses of civilians casualties they only cared about their own troops? It would be selfish. 

The public need to be more aware. They need to be shown the reality of what is going on and to try and make people understand on a personal level what it is like. This needs to be done with more direct news reports and better education on current events in schools. I can't speak for America, but 90% of people here have no perception of what suffering is like in the rest of the world. They see adverts on telly of children dying in Africa and how they need support, and all they think is 'more money? haven't we saved Africa yet?'. They aren't confronted with the subject in the right way.

I do want people to form their own opinions, and if they choose to be ignorant so be it, but I believe that ignorance has at large been created by the media with misinformation, so the goverments can carry on doing as they wish without much backlash. Sure, some shit will seep through the cracks but in the past few years we've committed some of the worst war crimes of the past few decades and not been held accountable. No one seems to realise that. If the public are made aware, and the news outlets show what is going on realistically, with complete unbias and in a way everyone can level with, then I would be happy. If at that point people want to continue to be ignorant, I know that it's just because they are dicks who don't care. It is very much on the part of the people to want this, but it's also part of the media to sort it out and enforce it.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 18, 2011)

^ This. Word for word.


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## Trembulant (Apr 19, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Trembulant*
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for putting words in my mouth, would that be a "faux quote"?
I'm sorry you didn't seem to get any of the point of what i said and decided to resort to propaganda and lies, guess i shouldn't be surprised.
I agree with a lot of things spoken by Rush and others as well as disagree with a lot. I also question everything, as well as question myself to keep myself in check as much as possible.

I do stand behind what i've stated, and feel that while of course things are agenda driven in general in every aspect of life i agree more with that certain agenda at it's core, and what i think that agenda is is prosperity. 
Not just in a monetary sense but prosperity in life and prosperity in spirit prosperity as a nation and as a people. It's more fundamental, before the agendas and the politics, opinions and hyperbole.
Man, just in the last few night's Hannity has had some good shows. First time i've ever seen an even group of democrats and republicans sitting together able to ask congress and senators unscripted questions and able to verbally react to what their answers were, great stuff, there should be much more of it in the future. It showed the mindset of regular people and what they feel and think of the direction of our country and government.
One thing that resonated evenly throughout was the distrust and the feeling of disingenuousness of our elected officials.

Sounds to me like you would think it was all scripted in some way. I can assure you if it was, it wouldn't make any sense because ALL of the views were presented - the positive and the negative and none of them were criticized, interrupted or distorted in any way whatsoever ( like some town hall with Bush or Obama where the constituents are the only ones hand picked to ask blatantly choice questions for the generic politician answer mind you.)
I also do feel that in general Fox does allow both sides to be heard equally on many shows. In fact i think they let their left leaning guests speak even more, (except O'Rielly of course) and instead of bashing them they just try to have a dialog. 
Often oddly enough instead of the guests taking much of that opportunity to express themselves productively, they already have a chip on their shoulder and assume they are in the lions den, lash out and generally do not make any good point whatsoever - usually ends up in them slamming Bush, or saying the same rehashed fodder that seems to be their alma mater -pisses me off because i actually want them to make their case in the debate..enlighten me please... but alas no, they fail. 
One guy the other night took the entire segment and did make a good case against the fox host and the host let him say his piece and the guy pretty much made good points, good for him, too bad he was ranting like a lunatic and had to degrade the other guy who had him on his show every other sentence while the host just let him ramble on and on basically saying nothing.

What i do hear right now today is Obama, Reid and other congress and senate blatantly lying, skirting the issues, using propaganda as a weapon and creating class warfare on public tv to the American public. These are not tv personalities or talk show hosts or entertainers, these are people we pay to get shit done who are doing and playing far worse games with the truth and the public than any shock jock or otherwise does. I would say that is where the real BS is, and i don't hear them being called out for it in many places. Thankful there are at least _some_ places where you can hear these people being called out. I would say on a whole, i do not feel coerced or shoved or ridiculed in any way by most of the shows i watch or listen to and that would be the reason i like them, because i guarantee you if i did feel that way i would not be watching them. They are merely stating things i would say myself a lot of the time anyway.

To prove a point, while i have not personally attacked anyone here and simply given my opinion and only retaliate when someone talks shit or is the grammar police. I have gotten a few personal attacks privately and have also gotten a few thumbs up from people who agree on the let's have some balance issue. Thank you to them, and well you know what to the others.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 19, 2011)

The thing you seem to consistently be missing/not understanding about the point of this thread though dude is that I/we don't think there should _be_ an "agenda" to any proper news.

Plain and simple, it should be facts, not half-facts dressed up in bias while the other side is ignored  If you agree with Fox, that's fine, and you've said it yourself you search out the rest of the facts too. My problem, like I've said time and time again, is that the majority of the population is NOT like that, most people can't/don't want to/couldn't be fucked seeing through the wall of bullshit and political scheming, and it's wrong that a "news" organisation takes advantage of that apathy/laziness.

EDIT: Hell, the point of the documentary/movie is simply that; That news corporations (all of them, not just Fox), because of various agendas and "embedded" journalists, are not actually _getting_ the facts in the first place


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## Trembulant (Apr 19, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I think you're exaggerating our (or at least my) take on all of this. Personally, I live and let live when it comes to most things. This particular conversation, however, is about how the direction of society is formed by the media and biased journalism. That IS a big deal. Live and let live all you want, but I see and hear people around me every day that are clearly swayed to believe the BS that is fed to them and they make important life choices based on it. It doesn't stop at politics either - it leads people to believe that the world is a hostile, hateful place, and that their health is constantly compromised, amongst other things. The world is shaped by the things we hear in the media.. And it's even more dangerous when that BS is being spread around 2nd hand.
> 
> What am I going to do about it? Not shove my views down someone's throat, but I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't matter, either.



I agree.


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## Trembulant (Apr 19, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> The thing you seem to consistently be missing/not understanding about the point of this thread though dude is that I/we don't think there should _be_ an "agenda" to any proper news.
> 
> Plain and simple, it should be facts, not half-facts dressed up in bias while the other side is ignored  If you agree with Fox, that's fine, and you've said it yourself you search out the rest of the facts too. My problem, like I've said time and time again, is that the majority of the population is NOT like that, most people can't/don't want to/couldn't be fucked seeing through the wall of bullshit and political scheming, and it's wrong that a "news" organisation takes advantage of that apathy/laziness.
> 
> EDIT: Hell, the point of the documentary/movie is simply that; That news corporations (all of them, not just Fox), because of various agendas and "embedded" journalists, are not actually _getting_ the facts in the first place




Agreed. And not that i missed your point at all. I'm just taking advantage of the threads basic topic in general, and like i said when someone bashes something for something that is not entirely true it makes it as bad as the point of the topic,..doesn't it?

As in this statement here


Daemoniac said:


> I'm over laughing at FOX, it used to make me laugh until I realised there are people who take that shit seriously, and get spoon-fed the tripe they call "news".



I would say not only is that BS, but it is unapologetically biased for reasons unknown. 
I would challenge you to explain what it is exactly that is BS in it's entirety as in the facts proving where and what is BS, and how that it makes it just all BS. Just so that anyone reading can see the why and the what as concrete fact. 
Well just agree that either ones _opinion_ doesn't count, because they are just opinions, and they can be agreed upon or disagreed upon by anyone weather they might oppose or disagree on the very next thing that's said from the very same persons mouth or not.
I know as a given rule of average being the media and what it is there should be some easily proven plain BS, so if you can find a small few that doesn't prove much or mean much and certainly doesn't prove the case that Fox is entirely bs and utter tripe.
So your statement still as of now is unsubstantiated, blatantly wrong and seemingly uneducated in the content of the media in question, since a very large majority of it is debate on topics and open discussion that very often allows for all opposing sides to voice their opinion freely, while in no way whatsoever hiding nor denying the fact that it is a media outlet that is more conservative in nature than not. Where is the BS, please enlighten.


I am not yelling at you man, i just want to know exactly what you mean and how you've come to the conclusion that everything on Fox is bs utter tripe irrevocably? 
Cause honestly you just seem to be just speaking from yorn buttocks for no apparent reason other than you just love to hate it, because it's just not true at all that it's all bs (there is news and there is commentary, they DO also have regular news breaks totally devoid of any Agenda at all as well you know). 
So maybe there should be seperation in the News part of Fox News? And the commentary/dialog part of Fox to make people like you happy, since some call it news just because it's called "Fox News", not that people who watch it do not know what they are watching, like i said, i'm watching it for the commentary, and i get my "News" from headlines and or quick blurbs or small article. How much more does one need to know about a typical event that happens everyday somewhere in the world. Anything beyond that is a story, or an account, "News" is 15 to 20 second blurbs.


Btw, as far as my daily intake of news or otherwise, *i don't even own a tv*. Nor have i had cable tv for more than 7 years now. I think it's brain rot for the most part and a waste of time. I do watch it on occasion when visiting the folks or whatever, so my yearly average intake of television of any kind probably hovers in the about 20 - 30 hours a year range _if even that_. 
I also listen to talk radio occasionally.
So as you can see i in fact do spend most of my time thinking on my own,
or reading various things or talking to people or listening to regular people talk.
So my views are generally formulated from the discussions i have or the things i hear from people on all sides of the spectrum, and in the most honest and major part from my heart. And to a much lesser extent any form of biased media


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 19, 2011)

Fox news has fabricated various news stories, including recently placing Egypt in Iraq's location on a world map. They've stated facts and statistics that have been wildly wrong, and anyone with common sense would see that. The station is a joke. I respect opinions, but theres a point when you have to draw a line. I respect religion, but sometimes it's so retarded you have to point it out. Now I don't know what exactly what points you agree with Fox news on, so they might be very valid, after all we can find agreement in the strangest of places. I have myself seen enough of Fox news to find it thoroughly horrific, and a cancer of modern America. If Fox news were gone and replaced with a more straight to the point, unbiased and valid news service, the whole country would be better off. Maybe Fox are right on some basic principles, maybe their individual newscasters raise some important points, but beyond that they're bloody insane.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 19, 2011)

^ 

It's not biased when it's truth... The station has _made stuff up_ and passed it off as news before, and they "report" with such a heavy and obvious agenda that it can't be taken seriously as "news" anyway, and (again like I've said before) that goes for a lot of stations too, not just FOX.

EDIT: That's not to say they never report anything true, but the fact that they DO and are willing to pass off lies as fact totally undermines the integrity of the program, especially for those that rely solely on the one station. It makes the entire program a joke (but one that lies to and manipulates it's viewers), and that is the kind of thing that pisses me off


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## Trembulant (Apr 20, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> ^
> 
> It's not biased when it's truth... The station has _made stuff up_ and passed it off as news before, and they "report" with such a heavy and obvious agenda that it can't be taken seriously as "news" anyway, and (again like I've said before) that goes for a lot of stations too, not just FOX.
> 
> EDIT: That's not to say they never report anything true, but the fact that they DO and are willing to pass off lies as fact totally undermines the integrity of the program, especially for those that rely solely on the one station. It makes the entire program a joke (but one that lies to and manipulates it's viewers), and that is the kind of thing that pisses me off




I understand your guys points and well taken, yes the entirety of media 
can be considered a joke. It is why i don't own or have cable tv anymore. 

I also agree blatant lies _are_ a cancer on this earth. In fact they to me are pretty much the worst of all things on this earth and the absolute root of most of the confrontations and problems we face as humans on this rock.

I have as well also have seen or heard reports that were wrongly stated on Fox and then also recanted and apologized for and admitted wrong, and some i never heard the outcome. Things should always be well confirmed before they are carelessly claimed or reported. 

I still disagree that they are on some mission to blatantly lie and deceive the viewership. Based pretty much on the fact that they have the opposing side of the spectrum on all the time and let them talk and say their piece and discuss their views usually without harassment ect..So how is that not being fair or balanced? You can't distort what the person just said from their mouth. Funny thing is most of the time all that needs to be done is to let them talk, no distortion is needed, you can hear the idiocy straight from the source,..fair and balanced 

I would add that we keep using the word "news", Again "news" in my opinion as stated is the local news channels...basically what's happening in the neighborhood or your local city. With some quick blurbs about world affairs and then.. Now here's the weather! So there IS that but i'm not really interested in watching that as much unless it's news about local taxes or how the idiotic local governments are screwing us in the ass.

What i personally enjoy is the debates between differing opinions on topics, I Do Not consider it "news", it is Not news, it's a talk show about topics in the news. Hopefully that will clarify News from non News? I think most people who watch the certain shows at certain times know exactly that difference, and don't need clarification that "it's not news!".. Like No Shit.

Fox does have "regular news" , it is the same news as you see anywhere else. It has no agenda, is just the same reporting of events that you could switch the channel and here the exact same story worded the exact same way anywhere.. same plain jane "news". 

And finally seeing as a few of you in this conversation are not even living in America and i'm not entirely sure what is broadcast by Fox on your end of the pond, however the things that are broadcast here really don't have much in the way to do with Great Britain nor Australia in any way so.. It must be shit relating to your neck of the woods i guess. Don't know about that. Maybe they're just fucking with you blokes aye?

But honestly.. can't really say i care to much about what your opinions on what America needs or doesn't need ,lol, Or see that you have much of a clue as to what is true or not going on here. Same as i am not offering my opinion about what Great Britain or Australia needs or doesn't need?
I dunno,..Maybe lower taxes?

Anyway, guess this has run it's course, and we do agree strongly on some points anyway. 

In reality i'd rather play guitar than watch the "news" anyway so i'm off to do just that.


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## orb451 (Apr 20, 2011)

You know what concerns me more than bias or un-bias in journalism and reporting? The pussification (<---Highly technical term) of our country. That's what gets me amped up. That's what has me worried at night.

Teaching kids it's OK to be mediocre. Giving out ribbons and handshakes to everyone so no one feels left out. Punishing people for success, making them feel obligated and loathsome because they busted their asses and made something of themselves. The notion that the world owes you something because of the color of your skin, or place of origin. A whole generation (if not more) of weaklings and weak links in the chain, too frail to fight for anything but handouts. An ever increasing sense of entitlement. How imbecility is now celebrated and elevated above intelligence, as if the more intelligent you are, and the more eloquently you speak and communicate, the less "Street Cred" you have and the more you are mocked.

These things trouble me vastly more than whether or not Fox News leans to the Right or the New York Times leans to the Left. They are the meat and potatoes and foundation of why, if anything, our country is doomed. Bias in journalism and slack jawed troglodytes buying into it is much lower on my list of things to be worried about.

Just my final .02


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## Daemoniac (Apr 20, 2011)

^ Don't even get me started on that 

Let's just say in general I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I'd also put the lack of respect taught to kids and bad parenting up there as a cause of that.


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## Treeunit212 (May 14, 2011)

Meatbucket said:


> Thank you for posting this Daemoniac.



This has basically already been posted...

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-current-events/149628-war-you-dont-see.html#post2372919


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## Daemoniac (May 14, 2011)

Damnit 

Oh well, it's worth the exposure.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (May 15, 2011)

Middle east = Petro dollar + Peak Oil

Let me google that for you

Let me google that for you

Journalism = puppets







Could do more, but that will do. Enjoy researching peak oil and the petro dollar for yourself, it's a fun journey!  Much more fun than TV ever can be. I'd recommend using Startpage Web Search as they don't record your IP address, like Google does, for sale to data statistics companies.

Look up "Atlas Shrugged"...
Atlas Shrugged - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Economic fiction, with remarkable parallels to what has transpired since it's publication.

Anything worth reading is in a book, not a "Paper". Obvious, really.

History books have an appendix with references for every quote and little commentary, often none at all or as a separate section with warning signs.

Now that Al Jazeera and Russia Today are in the States, what do you guys think of their brand of "News"? They're doing now what the "tin foil hat brigade" where talking about 20 years ago.

Best advice you'll ever get: Turn OFF your TV. Throw it/smash it/Hit it with a rock...

Don't give it away, you're responsible for the recipient then. Sell it, maybe.

BBC is biased as it gets, by the way, for British people who think they get it good with a licence fee providing the service:



Tony Benn = Winner at life, despite a bad start...


Good to see the politics and current event forum is alive and kicking!!! 

I prefer Hyperspace Cafe for news, much more fun! 

Last time I was there, I heard the Hitler was a gay prostitute and street dancer before he was famous..  And that his wedding to Eva Braun was on the same date as the recent Royal wedding 66 years ago... (April 29th). Quality of information VARIES!!!!! 

Eva Braun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Royal Wedding

*Please Note: This is not a "conspiracy theory", just a fact - If I added an opinion, then it would be a theory, simple reporting - see, it's not hard! *

Shame to see so much Neg Rep abuse in this part of the forum, there's bound to be many differences of opinion.

Good job, John Pilger! Saw it years ago, before it was on TV. No surprises, nothing new for me, but I'm sure it helped many people, especially in the current climate as asking difficult questions seems to unsettle so many.



> _"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism"_ - Thomas Jefferson



*see here for the conspiracy theory that Jefferson NEVER said that!!!*
Dissent is the highest form of patriotism (Quotation) « Thomas Jefferson

Enjoy! 

*Apologies for Michelle Obama / Sesame steet, it's my favourite episode!  Big bird, asking questions America's media won't "


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## daemon barbeque (May 15, 2011)

I aggree that media manipulation was always an issue. But it was not as effective since written media was not "reaching" the uneducated.
The times with Radio, TV and now internet reach exactly the uneducated, with typical subconciousness tricks, fear mongering and greed giggling. We can watch on BBC or any other tv channell people dying, people killing, people suffering and what to buy for christmass in the same programm. And this is called news.
Now let me ask a question, especially to Orb. Do we really need unnecesarry commentary like "war heroes" or "terrorist" which both are not right on every killing instance? Do you really think the news have to sell? The plain news have to be there for the interested people. Not pushed on their throats with half-real, unreal, totally BS.
All this BS took place in the last Osama BL incident too. Too many lies, excuses, misunderstanding...Too many "grey zones" for my tastes.
News have to be Factual and not half-fictional.
Fox can't be even accepted as News. It's a story teller network.


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## groph (May 15, 2011)

Huh.

I don't watch any mainstream news, when I am exposed to it it's MSNBC or whoever has Nancy Grace and I am definitely not a fan of hers at all, seems too "fear-mongery" for my taste. Too sensational and dramatic, it's a theme in popular news people bring up a lot. I guess it gets ratings though, and that's the whole point.

What irks me to no end is the political spectrum battle. The Right are a bunch of bible thumping, racist misogynists who want blow the dick of the American Empire while the Left are a bunch of misinformed, spineless, immature, idealistic, terrorist harboring, godless lunatics who think they know better than everyone else. Any kind of independent journalism is instantly branded as "anti-American" or general bullshit while non-independent journalism is instantly branded as "pro-American" and general bullshit. The difference is negligible, and as it's already been said it's just one side calling the other side dirty names, all that matters is what perspective you take.

Also, people ragging on socialism when they have no idea what socialism is annoys the hell out of me, like Sarah Palin making a comment on some policy "Well that sounds like socialism!" or Glenn Beck doing exactly the same thing. Socialism = public ownership of the means of production. A factory owned by workers is a socialist organization, it's egalitarian and non-hierarchical, there's no one boss or factory owner. Socialism doesn't immediately imply that there's a super-state that is headed by a tyrant backed by a cult of personality, and said state owns and runs everything in a society. That's closer to fascism or authoritarianism. There are a million different blends of socialism because it lies in between pure communism and pure capitalism. Pure communism, by the way, is classless and stateless, according to Marx. Hardly the nightmare it's portrayed as. Yes, in history, communist societies have failed terrifically and the states were often corrupt to the core and there was poverty everywhere so I'm not one of these people who advocates communism but don't just discredit it right away as the awful Red menace. Modern global capitalism is *far* from perfect and I don't think you're an immature, Che-shirt wearing malcontent for having that opinion, either. I don't support a system that functions off of screwing people over. I don't fully understand it, that's why I'm in school, and I don't expect to ever come up with a blueprint for a perfect utopia, I just want to gain a sense of the world. I'm 20, I know next to nothing about anything.

People need to stop making assumptions and telling each other how to live. Obviously. I always support critics, which brings me back to the whole general theme of this thread. Whether I agree with a critic or not, he/she has actually stopped and thought about something and told somebody else about it. If we all just passively accept everything in the world then those in power have total impunity. Say what you will about powerful nations now and how powerless the average person may or may not be, but without critics and thinking people, the powers that be would be in 100% control.


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## leandroab (May 16, 2011)




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## Quitty (May 17, 2011)

I can tell you the US isn't on its own with this trend.

Israel, the newly... ehh... scooted palestinian government (because 'formed' seems a little naive) and the middle-east in general is plagued with this to hell and back.

At some point you realize no one's even trying to be discrete about any of this, and i'm constantly reminded of dear ol' captain hook; "I'm surrounded by idiots!".

From Israeli media throwing headlines such as 'Israel to transfer 300,000,000$ to the Palestinian government', neglecting to mention it was the Palestinian's money in the first place and we were withholding it from them, 
to the Palestinian government-sponsored news station Al-Gazira fabricating photo-filled stories of Israeli-induced power-outages in Gaza to harm civilians and break morale. Great photoshop work there, BTW 

I'm hoping, when the next big revolution comes, that someone be wise enough to judge us all as humans, and not citizens.


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## Holy Katana (May 18, 2011)

Ain't news at all to me. *points to avatar*

Extreme media bias is nothing new; it's just become increasingly problematic.


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## vampiregenocide (May 18, 2011)

It has grown increasingly more sickening since the days of noble journalists like Robert Capa.


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## shredguitar7 (May 29, 2011)

like the late George Carlin said " It's all bullshit folks, and it's bad for ya ! "


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## Holy Katana (May 30, 2011)

Oh, now my post doesn't make any sense. I had a Noam Chomsky avatar when I posted that.


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