# New build - HENT one piece 7string!



## wintersun

Hi everyone.

It's been a while, and after extensive planning, I have finally found a luthier here in Croatia who will and can make the kind of guitar I always wanted - a one piece 7string  The luthiers name is *Robert Hent*, and he is very much known here in Croatia, plus not to mention what a great guitarist and overall guy he is. 

So I will periodically be posting images here as I receive them, but it won't be as often since Robert is very busy and has a full time job to attend to as well. I estimate that the entire guitar will be done in about 6 months.

Here are the specs:

- One piece custom shape

- Flamed Maple body/neck/fretboard

- Carbon fiber reinforced neck

- 17 inch (ibanez) radius, ibanez 7 top-mount locking nut

- 660mm slightly extended scale to get those lows a bit more support

- 26 frets - i liked the sound of the neck pickup on my Dean Rc7, so I moved it towards the bridge intentionally, but filled the gap with frets 

- Deep cutaway for easy hi fret access

- Original Floyd Rose 7 (chrome) with titanium saddles (shimmed to match the radius) and a 37m Brass Sustain Block from Floyd Upgrades (plus their brass claw, noiseless heavy duty springs and stainless steel hardware)

- Schaller tuners, volume pot, input jack and strap-locks

- 2 Seymour Duncan Blackout 7s, both neck versions (special thanks to *djpharoah* for making that suggestion, I tried it out and its AWESOME!)

- Natural binding, and custom wood fretboard inlays, which you will see later 

- Finish: haven't fully decided, but I think I'll be going after something like this ESP here:








So there you have it! Here are the first pics I took... Sorry I couldn't grab them during daylight, but there will be more soon 



































EDIT: changed the existing pics with hi-res ones.


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## Shanster695

Looks sexy! What kind of wood is that?
One solid piece will sustain for days


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## skeels

One piece? ! Awe-some!


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## wintersun

Shanster695 said:


> Looks sexy! What kind of wood is that?
> One solid piece will sustain for days



That would be a flamed maple, though it doesn't seem as obvious... probably cos it was cut on a different part of the tree, i don't know. It sounded very musical and I liked how it looked so I chose that one


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## Alex_IBZ

So much respect for building something like this!


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## wintersun

Alex_IBZ said:


> So much respect for building something like this!



Ty


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## Pikka Bird

I always liked builds like these, as rare as they are, but I always end up thinking too much about the wasteful nature of truly one-piece guitars. Can we assume the off-cuts are used for neck blanks?


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## wintersun

Pikka Bird said:


> I always liked builds like these, as rare as they are, but I always end up thinking too much about the wasteful nature of truly one-piece guitars. Can we assume the off-cuts are used for neck blanks?



I actually asked him the same thing. He said not to worry, that he always finds some use for the leftovers.

Also this is not an exotic wood, so ecologically speaking, its not a waste.. there's plenty of maple where I live  last thing you can do is use it for heating lol


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## Scattered Messiah

Subscribed!

This is sure gonna be interesting...


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## BillNephew

Pretty subtle flame going on there. I bet that thing is going to feel like a sack of bricks hanging off of your shoulder haha. However, it's probably going to be able to hold a note long enough to make Nigel Tufnel blush.


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## scherzo1928

Fuck, Yes!


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## EarlWellington

Oh wow, this is really cool... Can't wait to see how this turns out


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## immortalx

Man i really dig that! It takes a really skilled person to do a one piece build, so big respect to your luthier! Don't worry about the flame, it will pop during finishing.


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## wintersun

immortalx said:


> Man i really dig that! It takes a really skilled person to do a one piece build, so big respect to your luthier! Don't worry about the flame, it will pop during finishing.



Glad you like it  Well I wanted it to be a tad subtler then regular, cos for some reason I'm personally not a big fan of overly strong flames, and this is why I chose this plank. I like a strong quilted maple though. He told me the texture will come out more, and I think that will be just to the amount I like.

As far as skill goes, yeah, he's been doing it for 30 years now, so I believe he can get it done right. 

There's been more progress meanwhile BTW, I'm just waiting for him to get the cavities done so I can go there and take new pics.. hopefully in a week or so


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## wintersun

Aaaaaand it's done.

Just kidding. Here's the mockup I just finished (don't worry, I had another one before having it made, just not as detailed). So I was trying to figure out the "inlays" as well as some other cosmetic details.. oh and the color! I think I dig this one. What do you guys think?


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## abadonae

Yea man it looks really cool, i really like the colour and the unusual take on the super strat shape is pretty awesome too.

The fact that this going to be crafted entirely from one piece of wood blows my mind though, there is a thread on here somewhere for a guy who had a 7 string parker fly shaped guitar done the same way and it's amazing. If someone on here knows it they should pop up a link as i couldn't find it  

Look forward to following this things progress dude!


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## Walterson

Jens Ritter build a one piece flamed maple bass in 2009:
Ritter Roya Concept Nr. 0916



Price >20.000&#8364;


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## Pikka Bird

abadonae said:


> ...there is a thread on here somewhere for a guy who had a 7 string parker fly shaped guitar done the same way and it's amazing. If someone on here knows it they should pop up a link as i couldn't find it



Yeah, that ruled... It was in this thread but the images have all withered and died.


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## OfArtAndArsenal

Is that the longest truss rod ever or what?


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## wintersun

abadonae said:


> Yea man it looks really cool, i really like the colour and the unusual take on the super strat shape is pretty awesome too.
> 
> The fact that this going to be crafted entirely from one piece of wood blows my mind though, there is a thread on here somewhere for a guy who had a 7 string parker fly shaped guitar done the same way and it's amazing. If someone on here knows it they should pop up a link as i couldn't find it
> 
> Look forward to following this things progress dude!



Thanks man! 



Walterson said:


> Jens Ritter build a one piece flamed maple bass in 2009:
> Ritter Roya Concept Nr. 0916
> 
> 
> 
> Price >20.000&#8364;



Holy mother of.. 20k euros? I guess this is one of those reasons it is good to live in Croatia  Saying that I got off lucky would be an understatement. 



OfArtAndArsenal said:


> Is that the longest truss rod ever or what?



Actually he makes his own truss rods... thats why it's also a bit thicker then normal. As for the length, he only put it there to show me, he still needs to shorten it


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## technomancer

Cool to see somebody other than KxK doing one piece guitars. The one piece mahogany singlecut seven I had sounded HUGE.

This is going to be sweet


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## Navid

technomancer said:


> Cool to see somebody other than KxK doing one piece guitars. The one piece mahogany singlecut seven I had sounded HUGE.
> 
> This is going to be sweet



There also is Serenghetti guitars building one pieces


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## wintersun

Alright folks, new pics are here


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## wintersun

And some moarrrrr
















































And a special bonus:














^^ Mr Hent himself

That's it for now, hope you like them


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## Danukenator

Man, you should hang that or something. It just looks too cool.


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## nojyeloot

PLEASE tell me he'll let you keep that scrap wood. That'd make a wicked plaque on the wall with a hanger through it. 

Sweet thread too btw.


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## Metaljesus

What do you call that neck construction? Neck-is-body? Get it? Nevermind....


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## Berti_smb

Svaka cast  one piece gitara

pozdrav iz Samobora


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## wintersun

Danukenator said:


> Man, you should hang that or something. It just looks too cool.





nojyeloot said:


> PLEASE tell me he'll let you keep that scrap wood. That'd make a wicked plaque on the wall with a hanger through it.
> 
> Sweet thread too btw.



Haha, yeah, thats actually not a bad idea  

I'm gonna ask him, I'm sure he wouldn't mind. I think I'll also ask him to make it thinner though


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## wintersun

Berti_smb said:


> Svaka cast  one piece gitara
> 
> pozdrav iz Samobora



Hvala stari!


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## wintersun

Metaljesus said:


> What do you call that neck construction? Neck-is-body? Get it? Nevermind....



lol


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## OfArtAndArsenal

Metaljesus said:


> What do you call that neck construction? Neck-is-body? Get it? Nevermind....



No, that would be "body-thru-neck" construction...


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## BlackMastodon

I always referred to it as a unibody construction. My buddy's dad has an old single piece Ibanez and it's absolutely amazing.

OT: This build is coming out great! Everything looks so clean, can't wait to see the finished product.


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## Thrashmanzac

turn the off-cut into the best custom guitar case ever.


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## wintersun

Thrashmanzac said:


> turn the off-cut into the best custom guitar case ever.



.. and probably the heaviest as well 

The thought did cross my mind though 

Speaking of weight, what is amazing is that this guitar turns out is not going to be that heavy at all! Even the luthier was amazed. It will probably fit into the mid weight category once it's fully assembled, but definetly not heavy like you'd expect from maple guitars. Maybe it's cos, unlike most flamed maple guitar woods, this one was cut from the "heart" of the tree (he explained it to me today). That's the reason why it doesn't look like the typical flamed maple (which I personally would never go for).


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## wintersun

BlackMastodon said:


> I always referred to it as a unibody construction. My buddy's dad has an old single piece Ibanez and it's absolutely amazing.
> 
> OT: This build is coming out great! Everything looks so clean, can't wait to see the finished product.



Yeah he really keeps his work tidy... unlike his basement


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## HaMMerHeD

There's a one-piece flamed maple Ritter Roya bass. It's damned amazing.

Here it is:
http://www.ritter-basses.com/item_info.php?i=371


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## Walterson

HaMMerHeD said:


> There's a one-piece flamed maple Ritter Roya bass. It's damned amazing.



Yea.... thats what I wrote in Post #17....


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## HaMMerHeD

Walterson said:


> Yea.... thats what I wrote in Post #17....



Sorry, missed it.


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## wintersun

HaMMerHeD said:


> There's a one-piece flamed maple Ritter Roya bass. It's damned amazing.
> 
> Here it is:
> Ritter Roya Concept Nr. 0916



The price of that thing is hugely unrealistic IMO (20k euros, as it was mentioned). I can't see what could possibly make it that worth.


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## HaMMerHeD

I wouldn't pay it, that's for sure. But it isn't the most expensive bass Ritter has ever done, not by a long shot. But somebody bought it.


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## wintersun

HaMMerHeD said:


> I wouldn't pay it, that's for sure. But it isn't the most expensive bass Ritter has ever done, not by a long shot. But somebody bought it.



Guy knows how to make a business I suppose lol.

I've seen similarly priced signature guitars that people spent fortune on, only to realize that there is really nothing special about them, even to a point that they sounded noticeably inferior to the other regularly priced guitars they had. Ah well.


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## HaMMerHeD

Yeah, I'm not all that into super high priced guitars. I like Ritter basses because they have a style that I like. I'd never buy one, but I sure like looking at them.

Anyway, I posted the photo because I thought it was a cool looking instrument, and seemed a bit related to what you are having built. I like the idea of building a one-piece instrument. I want to do it some day, but I think I'm going to go with walnut. I have seen a 1-piece Cocobolo guitar. It was pretty swank.


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## jeleopard

wintersun said:


> The price of that thing is hugely unrealistic IMO (20k euros, as it was mentioned). I can't see what could possibly make it that worth.



iirc, Ritters are 100% custom. Custom parts, strings, very select woods, and the sound of Ritters make women orgasm.

So there's that.


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## wintersun

Yo guys

Here are a few more pics.. the fingerboard is complete!

Oh wait, now I realize I forgot to mention that it will be scalloped. Ah well 

More in 2 weeks!


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## jahosy

Wow amazing  

A big salute to the luthier!


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## Danukenator

Just thinking about it, the joke "Now, I just need remove everything that isn't a guitar," has probably never been as true. 

Man, good to see some scallops. I liked them on a guitar I had.


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## wintersun

Danukenator said:


> Just thinking about it, the joke "Now, I just need remove everything that isn't a guitar," has probably never been as true.
> 
> Man, good to see some scallops. I liked them on a guitar I had.



I think scallops are probably the best thing I have ever discovered related to guitars. There is so much misunderstanding about them - most people think that its hard to control the tone, and that if you press harder, you make a change in pitch. This is absolute nonsense, because, unless you are god damn hulk OR using very light strings, you will probably never manage to bend the note like that. MAYBE on the first couple frets, but also very unlikely.

I would never go back to the ordinary fretboards again  any shredder would absolutely have to try this.


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## Danukenator

Next time I get home, I should fix up my scalloped guitar. You have me gassing for it.


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## kn1feparty

Subbed so hard. This is amazing.


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## Randyrhoads123

That thing is gonna be heavy as dicks, dude. I can hardly bear my alder body/maple neck with a floyd guitar, I can't imagine having that thing! Looking pretty awesome though!


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## SirMyghin

Neat concept and looking nice.

As far as scallops go, yes, you can indeed sharp notes. Just like on jumbo frets, you can sharp notes. Yes- you need to be ham handed, but no, it is not impossible. A lot of folks are ham handed too. 

Jumbo frets largely eliminate the need for a scalloped board, as you never touch the board with them anyway. Most 'medium jumbos' are enough to stop me from every touching a fretboard.


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## Hollowway

Hmm, that neck is really thick. What do they call that profile - modern square wave? Seems like he could thin it out a tad.

Joking aside, I'm most excited about that full scallop. I have a guitar with full scallops and it's so weird feeling to play. Cool choice on that!


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## wintersun

SirMyghin said:


> Neat concept and looking nice.
> 
> As far as scallops go, yes, you can indeed sharp notes. Just like on jumbo frets, you can sharp notes. Yes- you need to be ham handed, but no, it is not impossible. A lot of folks are ham handed too.
> 
> Jumbo frets largely eliminate the need for a scalloped board, as you never touch the board with them anyway. Most 'medium jumbos' are enough to stop me from every touching a fretboard.




Glad you like it! 

Yeah, like I said, you CAN sharp them, but only on the lower strings, or if you have very light strings. I mean, ok, theoretically you could sharp them anywhere if you press REALLY hard - but I don't see why would you tho. 

The only string I used to have that was constantly prone to sharping, both on jumbos and scallops, was a .56 low B. But, once I started using balanced sets (10s with .68 low B and 50 low E) I never had any problems with sharping. Especially now when I moved to balanced 11s  For me its nearly impossible to sharp them after 5th fret. Maybe i'm just not strong enough lol


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## wintersun

Hollowway said:


> Hmm, that neck is really thick. What do they call that profile - modern square wave? Seems like he could thin it out a tad.
> 
> Joking aside, I'm most excited about that full scallop. I have a guitar with full scallops and it's so weird feeling to play. Cool choice on that!



Don't you make jokes about my brand new signature not C, not D, but E shaped neck!


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## wintersun

Randyrhoads123 said:


> That thing is gonna be heavy as dicks, dude. I can hardly bear my alder body/maple neck with a floyd guitar, I can't imagine having that thing! Looking pretty awesome though!



Hey, thanks!

But, even with all this wood uncut, Its really not that heavy, turst me! weird, but its true.


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## ILuvPillows

^
^
.Strandberg* designed, I believe.


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## wintersun

Actually they are... Zacharys  

Haven't tried Strandbergs yet, but I must admit that Zacharys are quite good!


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## 72xmulch

NOW THIS IS COOL


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## Scattered Messiah

I love the way the figure on the headstock looks ... This will be amazing!


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## wintersun

wintersun said:


> Actually they are... Zacharys
> 
> Haven't tried Strandbergs yet, but I must admit that Zacharys are quite good!



I was referring to strings here  nevermind lol.


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## wintersun

Scattered Messiah said:


> I love the way the figure on the headstock looks ... This will be amazing!



Ya, can't wait to have it stained to see how it all turns out!


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## wintersun

Yo everyone! New pics are here!

I finally had a chance to play it, although unpluged, and here are my observations:

- The guitar has a LOT of sustain

- It is very loud acoustically

- The low B sounds better than ANY guitar i've played, but I've never had a chance to play a baritone. I've played several 25.5 scale sevenstring, and on each of them low B sounded so much weaker when compared to low E, especially palm muted. Makes me think that no 7string should be shorter than 26" in scale.

- It is NOT heavy at all! In fact, it is amazingly light!! Weights around the same as Ibanez RG1527. And theres still some wood that needs to be removed, for top carvings.

- The extra 26" scale doesn't seem to make any noticable difference compared to all my 25.5" guitars playability wise.

- The tone acoustically is NOT bright at all (like most would expect), and there are PLENTY of lows. It sounds very balanced, and low B resonates equaly strong. Like I said tho, I've never heard any low B sounding this good unplugged in my life.

So, here are the pics! I'll post another bunch shortly cos maximum is 20 per post.


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## wintersun

And here's more!














































































Will post more as soon as the top bevel is done!


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## AwDeOh

My mind just exploded a little.. and now I have GAS: Builder's Edition.


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## Kroaton

Looking awesome so far , though I'm not a fan of the pickup rings you guys are gonna install. Why not keep it simple?


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## wintersun

Kroaton said:


> Looking awesome so far , though I'm not a fan of the pickup rings you guys are gonna install. Why not keep it simple?



Cos I always wanted pickup rings


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## b7string

That heel is amazing. Just wowwww! What a great lookin guitar and its still naked!


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## kn1feparty

This god damned thing is just ridiculous in the best of ways.


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## Watty

That color. Ohhhhhhhh yes.


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## 72xmulch

yeah this is definitely one of the coolest f-ing things ive ever seen!!! i really want to make one of these, ive never even thought of this idea before.. so cool


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## Vicious7

Holy shit!


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## Majkel

I think your luthier is going to have a busy couple of years ahead of him now that ss.org has seen this and thus found out about him


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## nutsock

Excellent work! That looks awesome!


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## Mike Azazel

looks awesome, respect


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## WeLookLikeGiants

I can't wait to see this beast finished! Looking awesome, dude. Big ups to Robert Hent.


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## IkarusOnFire

+1 on the scalloped frets! Very sweet build =)


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## wintersun

Majkel said:


> I think your luthier is going to have a busy couple of years ahead of him now that ss.org has seen this and thus found out about him



Haha, yeah, gotta make him a website as well! He really could make it big.


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## wintersun

Just letting you guys know: everything except the finish is now complete  Rob said he made the bevels a bit deeper than initially planned, and that it turned out awesome!

So brace yourselves, cos early next week I'm going there to take some kickass pictures!


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## Gregori

wintersun said:


>



What is up with this glue joint?


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## wintersun

Gregori said:


> What is up with this glue joint?



Yeah, looks like it didn't glue perfectly. I only noticed it after I took pictures real close with the camera. They asked me about that on a Croatian forum as well, but they said that it doesn't really matter, since it won't be a natural finish. I'll ask him about it myself tho.


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## ECGuitars

wintersun said:


> Yeah, looks like it didn't glue perfectly. I only noticed it after I took pictures real close with the camera. They asked me about that on a Croatian forum as well, but they said that it doesn't really matter, since it won't be a natural finish. I'll ask him about it myself tho.



To be perfectly blunt though, it does matter. It means that the structural integrity of the whole board is compromised, moisture has an even more direct route of access to inside that joint. It could potentially expand and bust the rest of the fingerboard right off.


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## wintersun

ECGuitars said:


> To be perfectly blunt though, it does matter. It means that the structural integrity of the whole board is compromised, moisture has an even more direct route of access to inside that joint. It could potentially expand and bust the rest of the fingerboard right off.



Shit. Thats not good. But wait, it will be covered with several layers of nitrocellulose finish... won't that prevent the moisture from getting in?


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## muffinbutton

I was actually thinking about this guitar a few days ago, I think this is the first build thread I saw on here. Haven't seen since then till now though. Looks Awesome!


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## Gregori

wintersun said:


> Shit. Thats not good. But wait, it will be covered with several layers of nitrocellulose finish... won't that prevent the moisture from getting in?



If he fills it properly, it should be good. I'd probably pack it with maple dust and wick some thin CA glue into there(not wood filler). 

Just tell him to make sure he fills it properly and to make damn sure it can't be seen with a finish on it.


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## wintersun

Gregori said:


> If he fills it properly, it should be good. I'd probably pack it with maple dust and wick some thin CA glue into there(not wood filler).
> 
> Just tell him to make sure he fills it properly and to make damn sure it can't be seen with a finish on it.



Yeah, there's a good chance he already noticed it and fixed it. I really got to know the guy over the past year, and I'm pretty sure he'd rather make a whole new guitar from scratch than compromise the stability on one of his fretboards, or even have it look like it.

And I sure as hell am tired of luthiers who don care about their customers and aren't responsible. I got fucked by Roter and some other Croatian luthier already (whos guitar Robert fixed afterwards), and I learned my lesson, so trust me, I wouldn't have even remotely considered this guy if he even appeared like any of them.


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## wintersun

Ok, so I asked him about this fretboard joint line thing. He said not to worry, because it will all be taken care of and not visible after finishing, and that its all been considered since the beginning. As for the moisture deal, he just laughed and said: "This is not glue, this is epoxy."

So there you have it  

Btw, I never mentioned it, but he's been making guitars well over 30 years now, and everyone I know is nothing but satisfied with his work. So I don't think I should worry at all.


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## TIBrent

Dem frets!!


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## Slunk Dragon

This thread is the juiciest, gawd damn! Subbed!


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## Walterson

Gregori said:


> What is up with this glue joint?



Thats what I thought too...


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## wintersun

Gregori said:


> What is up with this glue joint?





ECGuitars said:


> To be perfectly blunt though, it does matter. It means that the structural integrity of the whole board is compromised, moisture has an even more direct route of access to inside that joint. It could potentially expand and bust the rest of the fingerboard right off.





Walterson said:


> Thats what I thought too...



Check out post #87 in this thread.


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## Necromagnon

wintersun said:


> "This is not glue, this is epoxy."


Epoxy's not a glue? You gotta tell this to epoxy manufacturers...
Also, I, too, believe that it IS a matter. ECG was talking about the moisture inside the wood, not that will come in. Also, if the line is so visible, it can be for 2 reasons, imo:
1) wood movement; and this is really not a good omen for the life of the guitar to come
2) bad craftmanship;

you can always hide defects to prevent those from being visible from the outside, but that won't take them out of the guitar and prevent it for destroying the guitar.

Sorry to be that guy that is always against, but you really should worry about it...


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## Daf57

It's hard to tell for sure without being able to run something over or against the seam - it could just be a coloration issue and no gap at all. I seriously doubt a 30 year experienced luthier would blow off large sections of "unglued" fretboard. I bet it's fine. 

Looking good Wintersun!! You are going to have a real nice axe to be proud of!


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## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> Epoxy's not a glue? You gotta tell this to epoxy manufacturers...
> Also, I, too, believe that it IS a matter. ECG was talking about the moisture inside the wood, not that will come in. Also, if the line is so visible, it can be for 2 reasons, imo:
> 1) wood movement; and this is really not a good omen for the life of the guitar to come
> 2) bad craftmanship;
> 
> you can always hide defects to prevent those from being visible from the outside, but that won't take them out of the guitar and prevent it for destroying the guitar.
> 
> Sorry to be that guy that is always against, but you really should worry about it...



Nah, all good. I'm still not too convinced that its such an issue. What he meant with the epoxy part is that this isn't standard wood glue, but epoxy. 

Not sure about elsewhere, but here we don't really refer to epoxy as glue, tho I agree, if it sticks, it should be lol. I don't know about standard glue, but I'm damn sure epoxy its immune to moisture, and that's probably what he meant. So moisture can pretty much go fck itself 

Maybe he did make a mistake, who knows. 

I asked a friend and he said he saw this on some other guitars with rosewood fingerboards, and apparently didn't notice any issues at all. He thought this was perfectly normal, just as I did when I saw it. 

I'm going to go home in a few days and check on my other guitars, I'm really curious.





Daf57 said:


> It's hard to tell for sure without being able to run something through the seam - it could just be a coloration issue and no gap at all. I seriously doubt a 30 year experienced luthier would blow off large sections of "unglued" fretboard. I bet it's fine.
> 
> Looking good Wintersun!! You are going to have a real nice axe to be proud of!



Thanks!


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## Necromagnon

wintersun said:


> Nah, all good. I'm still not too convinced that its such an issue. What he meant with the epoxy part is that this isn't standard wood glue, but epoxy.


Carefull when using epoxy:
Glue strength testing

This is NOT a miracle solution. I'm sure your luthier knows better than me what he's doing, no problem, but I just wanted to throw it around here because too many people think about epoxy as some kind of "miracle solution".

A friend (quite very knowledgable on glues) add after this thread:
_There's different quality of epoxy, and the one you find in general stores is generally not the best.

Secondly, there's 2 things on which epoxy is very sensible:
1) thickness of glue joint; if the joint is too thin, epoxy won't be a good choice, opposite to cyano that needs an as thin as possible joint
2) epoxy, as it becomes really hard, is sensible to small rolls of glue at the end of the joint, that induce stress concentration that weaken the joint.
But epoxy is not sensible to humidity _[as said on previous posts]_.

Also, the fact that the ratio of strength between glue and material is important, and in the case of wood, play against epoxy.
Finally: epoxy is good, but not for used in luthiery where the materials are too soft compared to the glue itself, and also where the joint needs to be thin._

So, after reading this and the post, I think it's the glue joint that we see here. But the fact it's not continuous is a bit strange. I think (and hope) it won't move in your case, but using epoxy for gluing down the fretboard is really NOT a good idea. You better use titebond or gorilla.


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## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> Carefull when using epoxy:
> Glue strength testing
> 
> This is NOT a miracle solution. I'm sure your luthier knows better than me what he's doing, no problem, but I just wanted to throw it around here because too many people think about epoxy as some kind of "miracle solution".
> 
> A friend (quite very knowledgable on glues) add after this thread:
> _There's different quality of epoxy, and the one you find in general stores is generally not the best.
> 
> Secondly, there's 2 things on which epoxy is very sensible:
> 1) thickness of glue joint; if the joint is too thin, epoxy won't be a good choice, opposite to cyano that needs an as thin as possible joint
> 2) epoxy, as it becomes really hard, is sensible to small rolls of glue at the end of the joint, that induce stress concentration that weaken the joint.
> But epoxy is not sensible to humidity _[as said on previous posts]_.
> 
> Also, the fact that the ratio of strength between glue and material is important, and in the case of wood, play against epoxy.
> Finally: epoxy is good, but not for used in luthiery where the materials are too soft compared to the glue itself, and also where the joint needs to be thin._
> 
> So, after reading this and the post, I think it's the glue joint that we see here. But the fact it's not continuous is a bit strange. I think (and hope) it won't move in your case, but using epoxy for gluing down the fretboard is really NOT a good idea. You better use titebond or gorilla.



Then again, hes been using exclusively epoxy throughout his career (tho he did initially start with standard glue, not sure which), and there were no issues. He's got some old guitars that I played on... everything was in top condition. The reason he mainly uses epoxy is the same as why he uses nitro for finish instead of polyurethane - he claims it sounds better.

EDIT: Other than that, thanks for the info! Lets just wait up and see how it turns out


----------



## Necromagnon

wintersun said:


> he claims it sounds better.


----------



## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


>



Well, why not? Finish type does affect the tone. Its not the same if you leave the wood open or cover it with.. plastic. Glue on the other hand, as far as I'm aware, doesn't conduct the sound so well. There are probably many opinions about this, but I can see the reasoning involved.

There are couple of other tricks (opinons, myths?) that he believes in and applies and, apparently after much experimentation, claims that they work best for the tone. But they do make sense if you think about it: the general idea is not to block the tone flow in any way, and as much as possible minimize doing so. I won't reveal them without his consent though.

Now, is it all just a myth or not? I don't know. All I can say that his guitars sounded great to me, one of which I borrowed for a week. And they sure as hell vibrated tremendously while played, and none of them sounded muffled. If all that weren't the case, i wouldn't have chosen him to build my guitar at all.


----------



## axxessdenied

wintersun said:


> Well, why not? Finish type does affect the tone. Its not the same if you leave the wood open or cover it with.. plastic. Glue on the other hand, as far as I'm aware, doesn't conduct the sound so well. There are probably many opinions about this, but I can see the reasoning involved.
> 
> There are couple of other tricks (opinons, myths?) that he believes in and applies and, apparently after much experimentation, claims that they work best for the tone. But they do make sense if you think about it: the general idea is not to block the tone flow in any way, and as much as possible minimize doing so. I won't reveal them without his consent though.
> 
> Now, is it all just a myth or not? I don't know. All I can say that his guitars sounded great to me, one of which I borrowed for a week. And they sure as hell vibrated tremendously while played, and none of them sounded muffled. If all that weren't the case, i wouldn't have chosen him to build my guitar at all.


Yeah, but this isn't an acoustic guitar... I bet if you picked up one guitar with epoxy / nitro finish everything else the same. then grabbed the same specced guitar with poly / glue. Played both blind folded. Would you hear the difference? Doubtful.


----------



## wintersun

axxessdenied said:


> Yeah, but this isn't an acoustic guitar... I bet if you picked up one guitar with epoxy / nitro finish everything else the same. then grabbed the same specced guitar with poly / glue. Played both blind folded. Would you hear the difference? Doubtful.



Well, I'm not sure, but I sure would like to try. 

What's interesting is that I will indeed have a chance for just that: I have a poly finished guitar that I'm having Robert refinish, because of some mistakes that the previous luthier made. They are only cosmetic tho, so this will be a good test, at least as far as polyurethane vs nitro is concerned.

As for glue vs epoxy.. no clue really. Apparently he tested over the years and made a choice. I mean, the sole fact that he MADE a choice to use Nitro over Poly and epoxy over glue, means much more than if he just followed what everyone else is doing nowadays (or just not having an opinion at all). Every luthier here I know uses Polyurethane, and he just refuses 

Note that he's not just a builder, he also plays his guitars (big malmsteen fan), and used to tour around Europe with his band, mostly playing on biker events and such. So he really played his creations intensively. Add to that years of experience and expremintation, and its not very unlikely that he came up with some combinations he realized work better than the other. Or at least formed an opinion.


----------



## Gregori

Necromagnon said:


> Carefull when using epoxy:
> Glue strength testing




I always thought epoxy was the best choice for a fretboard. I was even going to use it on my current build. Now I can see that I have a lot more research to do on this. 

Wintersun, there is no doubt in my mind that he made some sort of mistake while gluing. Perhaps he didn't tighten the clamps enough? If he tells you that is normal, then I would question his standards because such an obvious glue joint shouldn't be accepted as a standard in lutherie. But that's not to say it's a fatal mistake. If the bond is strong enough to do the job, and it won't be visible, then I don't see any reason to dwell on it. But if he swears that something like that is normal, then his integrity should be in question. I don't know if he's been telling you that, I'm just putting that out there. 

I definitely don't buy into the stuff about epoxy sounding better than glue, or a nitro finish sounding better than a poly finish.


----------



## anthonyferguson

There doesn't look to be a gap there-it's just a glue line. It could be number of things, but maybe the grain tore slightly when it was planed, and that part of the edge is where some small voids are. I really wouldn't have said it's going to compromise the strength of bond. I can assure you if it was an ebony or rosewood board it'd be totally invisible and no-one would take a second glance!


----------



## wintersun

Gregori said:


> Perhaps he didn't tighten the clamps enough?



This is my thought as well. I'll go there soon and ask him directly what the deal is. Maybe he really didn't tighten it enough on that part, and didn't notice himself, cos I only noticed with hi res camera picture, and as you can tell its super thin, like a fraction of a millimeter. I mean, 30 years or not, everyone can make a mistake, but admitting is essential. Everything else he did absolutely perfect up until now, and if its not that serious, I would really let it be.

Regarding his integrity, I have to say that he really is an awesome and totally friendly guy. He could have exploited me quite a bit, but instead, for example as I currently don't have a license, he comes with his car, picks me up, and takes me there to have a look at the guitar. We go have couple beers, and refuses that I pay. He could have charged me like crazy for this guitar, but didn't as he knew I got fcked by Roter and partially by another Croatian luthier. There are other examples as well, but basically, thinking about it, I don't think hes getting that much gain from me. I barely convinced him to make him a website as a sign of appreciation lol.

All this also means that I don't really feel like being a dick and telling him "remove that fretboard and glue it back again". Nor that I think its necessary.

Nitro vs Poly and epoxy vs glue is another story and I seriously don't care as long as what I get sounds and works great. He and anyone else can have their own opinions. I don't have one, not until I get some conclusive evidence at least  But my GUESS is, since Poly is basically plastic, it probably does dampen the sound at least a little bit.

I will however report and RECORD the difference in sound once that other guitar gets refinished to Nitro. It will be an excellent experiment.


----------



## wintersun

anthonyferguson said:


> There doesn't look to be a gap there-it's just a glue line. It could be number of things, but maybe the grain tore slightly when it was planed, and that part of the edge is where some small voids are. I really wouldn't have said it's going to compromise the strength of bond. I can assure you if it was an ebony or rosewood board it'd be totally invisible and no-one would take a second glance!



I really hope thats the case  And like I said, my friend said he saw those exact mini gaps on several rosewood-board guitars. This is all maple and zoomed in ridiculously, so its probably why it looks so obvious.


----------



## demonx

wintersun said:


> the sole fact that he MADE a choice to use Nitro over Poly and epoxy over glue, means much more than if he just followed what everyone else is doing nowadays (or just not having an opinion at all). Every luthier here I know uses Polyurethane, and he just refuses



Probably because Nitro is easier and cheaper than Poly. I use 2k (which fits into the poly family)

As far as epoxy, I have epoxy here than can be used as glue, but i never use it as a glue. I use F9 and Titebond.

In reguards to that glue joint, my 2c is it looks like he has clamped it with clamps only and not a caul, then left it in varying temperature and the fingerboard has curled during the curing process. Only a guess. OR - maybe the surfaces were not prepped thorough enough? Who knows.

I'm not a "massive" builder, BUT - if that happened to me it'd get put in the "that didn't work" pile and do it again.

As far as te rest of the guitar - it looks great, he definitely does some neat and tidy work with exception of that one screw up which I'm sure he is not happy with himself.


----------



## Necromagnon

About the influence of the laquer, just think of it that way: the sound you hear on your amp goes from where? Does the vibration of the body HAVE to leave and travel through the air from the guitar body to your hear like it is for a speaker?
Obviously not. Breathing of wood and all this stupid thing is (and even not so much) true for acoustic, as 1) the thickness of the laquer is much more consequent compared to the thickness of the material (0.5 mm of laquer on a table of 2.2 mm or on a body of 40 mm don't have the same impact...), 2) the acoustic tone is directly made from the vibration of the body going through the air around the guitar and so there can be damping with laquer.
But on an electric...
He could have used the fact that PU are higly chemical and dangerous for healt and environnement, and that's why I don't use it also. But the question about tone... I'd rather believe in raining donuts before it.

About glue... If glue doesn't conduct well the vibration, and combining it to the fact that epoxy needs a thicker joint, would it make sense to you?
The problem is that between to guitars that seem to be similar, there's 100 parameters that differ. And people are putting justification on just 2/3 of them, and that's all.
Even in the same lumber of wood, there's huge difference, so how can we possibly asserts such things?

But anyway, that doesn't take anything about this project and all, don't worry. It's just that it needs to be higly moderate when people talking about the influence of something else that pu/strings/hardware/carefullness of building.


----------



## wintersun

demonx said:


> Probably because Nitro is easier and cheaper than Poly.



Nah. He does work with it if customer insists. I guess I used too strong word there. He doesn't prefer it would be more correct. He would never use it on his own guitars tho.

As for it being cheap.. well, let me put it this way. He also refuses to use cheap hardware 

so no, hes not cutting the costs by using Nitro. He just honestly prefers it for reasons mentioned earlier.


----------



## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> About the influence of the laquer, just think of it that way: the sound you hear on your amp goes from where? Does the vibration of the body HAVE to leave and travel through the air from the guitar body to your hear like it is for a speaker?
> Obviously not. Breathing of wood and all this stupid thing is (and even not so much) true for acoustic, as 1) the thickness of the laquer is much more consequent compared to the thickness of the material (0.5 mm of laquer on a table of 2.2 mm or on a body of 40 mm don't have the same impact...), 2) the acoustic tone is directly made from the vibration of the body going through the air around the guitar and so there can be damping with laquer.
> But on an electric...
> He could have used the fact that PU are higly chemical and dangerous for healt and environnement, and that's why I don't use it also. But the question about tone... I'd rather believe in raining donuts before it.
> 
> About glue... If glue doesn't conduct well the vibration, and combining it to the fact that epoxy needs a thicker joint, would it make sense to you?
> The problem is that between to guitars that seem to be similar, there's 100 parameters that differ. And people are putting justification on just 2/3 of them, and that's all.
> Even in the same lumber of wood, there's huge difference, so how can we possibly asserts such things?
> 
> But anyway, that doesn't take anything about this project and all, don't worry. It's just that it needs to be higly moderate when people talking about the influence of something else that pu/strings/hardware/carefullness of building.



So lets go back to the same old conclusion. I DON'T CARE what his opinion is. I like the way his guitars sound, and as long as he can get mine to sound like that, thats it!

There are other luthiers who also claim that epoxy sounds better. Patrick Hufschmied for example, was using gorilla and changed to epoxy, claiming it sounds better and holds better. But again, thats his opinion that he gained for whatever reason. There is no harm in that, as long as the result is good.

I'm really begining to regret I even started this epoxy nitro discussion 

Nah, you guys are cool. I like this comunity, and I like that you are being critical. But whats absolutely true is that there are so many variables in guitarmaking that its impossible to know what exactly caused what.

BUUUUT, i put my money on this Poly to Nitro refinish test  That should be accurate enough! 

EDIT: in case you are wondering if the Poly recording vs Nitro recording will be accurate due to mic positions and what not.. FEAR NOT! I'll use my Kemper, so I can assure you that the setup will be 100% same


----------



## Suitable

What i don't understand is how epoxy could stand up to neck flex (eg putting different string gauges on and having to adjust the truss rod...)? When set its pretty brittle. Not having a go, just curious. 

Very nice looking axe though!


----------



## crazygtr

Necromagnon said:


> About the influence of the laquer, just think of it that way: the sound you hear on your amp goes from where? Does the vibration of the body HAVE to leave and travel through the air from the guitar body to your hear like it is for a speaker?
> Obviously not. Breathing of wood and all this stupid thing is (and even not so much) true for acoustic, as 1) the thickness of the laquer is much more consequent compared to the thickness of the material (0.5 mm of laquer on a table of 2.2 mm or on a body of 40 mm don't have the same impact...), 2) the acoustic tone is directly made from the vibration of the body going through the air around the guitar and so there can be damping with laquer.
> But on an electric...
> He could have used the fact that PU are higly chemical and dangerous for healt and environnement, and that's why I don't use it also. But the question about tone... I'd rather believe in raining donuts before it.
> 
> About glue... If glue doesn't conduct well the vibration, and combining it to the fact that epoxy needs a thicker joint, would it make sense to you?
> The problem is that between to guitars that seem to be similar, there's 100 parameters that differ. And people are putting justification on just 2/3 of them, and that's all.
> Even in the same lumber of wood, there's huge difference, so how can we possibly asserts such things?
> 
> But anyway, that doesn't take anything about this project and all, don't worry. It's just that it needs to be higly moderate when people talking about the influence of something else that pu/strings/hardware/carefullness of building.



I respectfuly disagree, I've been playing/building guitars for the past 20 years and beleive me, there is a difference in the tonal quality of a lacquered instrument and a oiled/raw wood one. As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste. IMHO the less finish the better.


----------



## Necromagnon

wintersun said:


> Nah, you guys are cool. I like this comunity, and I like that you are being critical. But whats absolutely true is that there are so many variables in guitarmaking that its impossible to know what exactly caused what.


Yep, that's it. There's nothing more to say. 



> I respectfuly disagree, I've been playing/building guitars for the past 20 years and beleive me, there is a difference in the tonal quality of a lacquered instrument and a oiled/raw wood one. As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste. IMHO the less finish the better.


There might be one, because every parameter can change everything. In the basic, I totally agree. But what I disagree is on the fact that there was only the laquer that were different. Thus putting the tonal difference all on this parameter make me sceptical.
But after that, I'm more a mechanician/theoritician than a player/builder, so this is the pragmatism needed in reasearch that speaks here.


PS: crazygtr, you get a good point also, with this: "As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste". That's also big part of the problem of "how sound a wood/laquer/glue/blabla".


----------



## crazygtr

Necromagnon said:


> Yep, that's it. There's nothing more to say.
> 
> There might be one, because every parameter can change everything. In the basic, I totally agree. But what I disagree is on the fact that there was only the laquer that were different. Thus putting the tonal difference all on this parameter make me sceptical.
> But after that, I'm more a mechanician/theoritician than a player/builder, so this is the pragmatism needed in reasearch that speaks here.
> 
> 
> PS: crazygtr, you get a good point also, with this: "As to which sounds "better" it depends on the musician and his taste". That's also big part of the problem of "how sound a wood/laquer/glue/blabla".



I totally get you. There's been so much ga-ga about certain details of construction that man, it gets boring. This glue, the other, did you cut your wood on a new moon? etc. It's just marketing, but on the other hand some of it is true.


----------



## FruitCakeRonin

Awesome, ive always wanted to know if a onepiece guitar was possible.


----------



## AwDeOh

FruitCakeRonin said:


> Awesome, ive always wanted to know if a onepiece guitar was possible.



Speaking of Fruit Cakes, it'll only be a matter of time before one of the resident nutcase builders here makes a one piece guitar out of concrete or steel or something.

RE: Tone.. it's Fender VS Gibson, Mesa VS Marshall. As I've said before, I heard a sample clip of a guitar made out of MDF which shat a bucket of tone. I think of guitar construction and wood grain a little bit like the human arm, with all its muscles, nerves, bone, skin, fat. Theoretically every human arm is the same, in principle. But the devil is in the details. Micheal Jordan's arm was amazing on a basketball court, average on the baseball plate, and crappy behind the Wizards' manager desk.


----------



## Necromagnon

It was brazilian mdf, na?


----------



## walshy0420

Haha, I love that Jordan analogy above!

I'm going to be glued to this thread as I'm always eager to see how one piece builds turn out. Ridiculous pun there, I know! 

I was of the understanding that you can run into potential warping issues with a one piece build but I'm sure this guy knows what he's doing. The progress so far is incredible. Just hope you get that fretboard issue sorted out. Hoping it isn't an issue for you in the long run.

I haven't logged in here for a long time but now I've got my first build underway (an RG/Jem hybrid) I'll be checking in more often. This thread in particular is total guitar porn.

Looking forward to seeing this beast when finished


----------



## axxessdenied

I noticed the nut is installed kinda of sloppy as well:







I have beside me one of the new 25th anniversary RG's that I paid $500 for. I can tell you the neck on this looks much better than these pics. I would be kind of questioning why there is such a large visible glue line and the nut slut was cut so rough.


----------



## wintersun

axxessdenied said:


> I noticed the nut is installed kinda of sloppy as well:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have beside me one of the new 25th anniversary RG's that I paid $500 for. I can tell you the neck on this looks much better than these pics. I would be kind of questioning why there is such a large visible glue line and the nut slut was cut so rough.



Because it's not done here. He sanded the neck more since the last pictures were taken. That might also be the answer to that other line discussed.


----------



## Le Jeff

I don't mean to be a dink or anything but I suggest you start trying to get a refund. Routeing a nut slot and gluing a fretboard on aren't rocket surgery but this guy fucked both up and then proudly sent you pictures of his work. Plus, just because the guitar ends up 'looking pretty' doesn't mean you're not going to know that the fretboard was glued on with the wrong stuff and improperly.


----------



## wintersun

Le Jeff said:


> I don't mean to be a dink or anything but I suggest you start trying to get a refund. Routeing a nut slot and gluing a fretboard on aren't rocket surgery but this guy fucked both up and then proudly sent you pictures of his work. Plus, just because the guitar ends up 'looking pretty' doesn't mean you're not going to know that the fretboard was glued on with the wrong stuff and improperly.



Sure


----------



## 72xmulch

man, you guys are rough. this thing is badass, i dont care...


----------



## wintersun

I agree. I'm sure they have their reasons, but some are really being unreasonable (if not suspicious). This nut argument is totally ridiculous IMO.

So yeah, I obviously picked a horrible luthier, and I'm so going to ask for a refund because some believe epoxy doesn't hold, when there are so many guitars that are done exclusively with epoxy and work flawlessly! Awesome argument.

I'm also going to bitch about the nut, when the neck isn't done at all. Like seriously? Hell yeah, refund case all the way. 

There are two other luthiers who I'm in contact with and who went there yesterday and checked the guitar while I'm still out of town. No one said anything about this, they all claim it's awesome. Conspiracy? Sure.


----------



## UnderTheSign

wintersun said:


> I agree. I'm sure they have their reasons, but some are really being unreasonable (if not suspicious). This nut argument is totally ridiculous IMO.
> 
> So yeah, I obviously picked a horrible luthier, and I'm so going to ask for a refund because some believe epoxy doesn't hold, when there are so many guitars that are done exclusively with epoxy and work flawlessly! Awesome argument.
> 
> I'm also going to bitch about the nut, when the neck isn't done at all. Like seriously? Hell yeah, refund case all the way.
> 
> There are two other luthiers who I'm in contact with and who went there yesterday and checked the guitar while I'm still out of town. No one said anything about this, they all claim it's awesome. Conspiracy? Sure.


While some people are overreacting (a refund because of a sloppy looking nut?) I do have to say the nut slot looks kinda sloppy and sanding won't change that. I doubt it affects playability or sound though so as long as he covers his mistakes and doesn't deliver a shitty product, I wouldn't worry too much. Every woodworker makes mistakes from time to time and sometimes it's just a matter of covering them up properly. Hell, we're working on a 30-40 grand kitchen right now, think that's gonna turn out flawless? There's multiple mistakes in it but the customer is never even going to notice, visually nor functionally.


----------



## wintersun

UnderTheSign said:


> While some people are overreacting (a refund because of a sloppy looking nut?) I do have to say the nut slot looks kinda sloppy and sanding won't change that. I doubt it affects playability or sound though so as long as he covers his mistakes and doesn't deliver a shitty product, I wouldn't worry too much. Every woodworker makes mistakes from time to time and sometimes it's just a matter of covering them up properly. Hell, we're working on a 30-40 grand kitchen right now, think that's gonna turn out flawless? There's multiple mistakes in it but the customer is never even going to notice, visually nor functionally.



Totally agree, though I really can't see where nut looks sloppy


----------



## crazygtr

I would wait for the final product before judgment. There are lots of details during a build that look weird before finishing and, as said before, when finished they just dissapear.


----------



## UnderTheSign

wintersun said:


> Totally agree, though I really can't see where nut looks sloppy









He took out a bite which shouldn't have been taken out. That and the nut seems to hang slightly over the edge of the 'platform' indicating he cut that a little too short. Really though, I think I'm really nitpicking here.


----------



## Gregori

UnderTheSign said:


> There's multiple mistakes in it but the customer is never even going to notice, visually nor functionally.



Wintersun probably wouldn't have noticed if he didn't have everyone on here pointing out every little flaw 

As for that sloppy nut, it could probably be filed out, but I'd then he may have to shim the nut. Personally, I'd just leave it and probably never think about it again. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.


----------



## wintersun

Gregori said:


> Wintersun probably wouldn't have noticed if he didn't have everyone on here pointing out every little flaw
> 
> As for that sloppy nut, it could probably be filed out, but I'd then he may have to shim the nut. Personally, I'd just leave it and probably never think about it again. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.



Yeah, I hate you guys!


----------



## Suitable

I can't wait to post my own 7string build here... I'm gonna get slaughtered  What no. guitar is yours for this luther? Ie how many has he done before this on in 30 years? Maybe hold off till the finish with the pics... I still reckon it looks sic!


----------



## wintersun

Suitable said:


> I can't wait to post my own 7string build here... I'm gonna get slaughtered  What no. guitar is yours for this luther? Ie how many has he done before this on in 30 years? Maybe hold off till the finish with the pics... I still reckon it looks sic!



I never asked him actually. I did see 10 or so of his guitars tho.

And yeah, I really think i shouldn't post any more until the end. I understand why people are pointing every single detail, but could anyone really say that they haven't made ANY mistakes on their guitars? Or any luthier, including you people here? How many mistakes did you cover up? 

So be reasonable people. You should see the other luthiers I've met, and all the things THEY call irrelevant. This is a total work of art compared to 95% of luthiers out there.


----------



## Necromagnon

wintersun said:


> So be reasonable people. You should see the other luthiers I've met, and all the things THEY call irrelevant. This is a total work of art compared to 95% of luthiers out there.


Don't take it bad, we are just saying what we see/think, as we do on every luthiers. I recently saw on fb a pics of the back electroni cavity of a blackwater... I really love is craftmanship, but it's seriously sloppy work. And I would personnaly never post this on my page. I'll firstly try to rebuild a new plate that will fit better, or something. People will never that it's the seventh or 14578th plate I've made because I'm really bad worker, but the result is that it ended to be really perfect.

And second point: it's your build. People can say whatever they want, it shouldn't matter to you (well, unless it highlight some serious flaws like Invictus & co.).


----------



## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> Don't take it bad, we are just saying what we see/think, as we do on every luthiers. I recently saw on fb a pics of the back electroni cavity of a blackwater... I really love is craftmanship, but it's seriously sloppy work. And I would personnaly never post this on my page. I'll firstly try to rebuild a new plate that will fit better, or something. People will never that it's the seventh or 14578th plate I've made because I'm really bad worker, but the result is that it ended to be really perfect.
> 
> And second point: it's your build. People can say whatever they want, it shouldn't matter to you (well, unless it highlight some serious flaws like Invictus & co.).



True dat! 

Well, at least you got a honest presentation. I still think his score is VERY high. If we went on like that, we could probably dissect work from every luthier we know about. God knows how many covered flaws we all have on our guitars that we don't even know about.


----------



## Thrashmanzac

i have seen it alot where a builder posts progress pictures of a guitar that make it look a bit dodgey, but then post pictures of the finished product that blow everyone away. i'm hoping this is one of those guitars


----------



## Necromagnon

Thrashmanzac said:


> i have seen it alot where a builder posts progress pictures of a guitar that make it look a bit dodgey, but then post pictures of the finished product that blow everyone away. i'm hoping this is one of those guitars


And that's a problem. To cover up flaws does not mean to avoid/prevent it, and it still can be very dangerous for the life of the guitar (I'm talking in completely general term, here  ). That's what I understand from modern days luthiery: _do an awesome finish, and it will cover up every other flaw in the eyes of guitarist_.



> Well, at least you got a honest presentation. I still think his score is VERY high. If we went on like that, we could probably dissect work from every luthier we know about. God knows how many covered flaws we all have on our guitars that we don't even know about.


And I think that should be done. Honesty from both side will allow for real judgement of the customer, and also impose the builders (and not specially of guitars) to do the best work possible on earth. This will prevent some problems like Invictus, S7, or anything else of the same kind.
But anyway, that's not the topic of this thread.


----------



## muffinbutton

wintersun said:


> And yeah, I really think i shouldn't post any more until the end.



No! Don't stop! This guitar looks epic!


----------



## Thep

Looks fantastic. But I think you need a string tree. I ideally, you want the string to sit flush with the nut, but it looks like the strings aren't coming in contact with the notches. 

Could cause some tuning stability issues.


----------



## wintersun

Thep said:


> Looks fantastic. But I think you need a string tree. I ideally, you want the string to sit flush with the nut, but it looks like the strings aren't coming in contact with the notches.
> 
> Could cause some tuning stability issues.



Yeah i'll put the string retainer if I notice any stability issues. But if everything turns out ok without it, no need to drill holes in vain


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## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> And I think that should be done. Honesty from both side will allow for real judgement of the customer, and also impose the builders (and not specially of guitars) to do the best work possible on earth. This will prevent some problems like Invictus, S7, or anything else of the same kind.
> But anyway, that's not the topic of this thread.



Agreed


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## Necromagnon

Thep said:


> Looks fantastic. But I think you need a string tree. I ideally, you want the string to sit flush with the nut, but it looks like the strings aren't coming in contact with the notches.
> 
> Could cause some tuning stability issues.


It's a locking nut. The upper part will get the string down when screwed, so I don't think he will have issues.


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## crazygtr

Tuning the guitar without the retainer will bee a nightmare. Retainer bar is a must.


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## wintersun

crazygtr said:


> Tuning the guitar without the retainer will bee a nightmare. Retainer bar is a must.



Well, my Dean RC7x doesn't have a retainer, and there are no problems. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe its because the headstock on Dean is more angled than on this guitar


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## crazygtr

wintersun said:


> Well, my Dean RC7x doesn't have a retainer, and there are no problems. Actually, now that I think about it, maybe its because the headstock on Dean is more angled than on this guitar



You just hit it. On a very angled neck the strings rest across the whole bottom of the lock nut, eliminating the chance for the strings to go sharp when the locks go down on them. In this case, judging by the pic provided, it is obvious that this will happen. You'll definitively need a retainer bar.


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## wintersun

Alright, so.. here are the new pictures.

I checked the glue joint thing.. What I can tell you is that this is definitely NOT a crack! There is absolutely no way to stick your nail or even a needle in there or drag on top to "sense" any kind of gap. I tried intensively, and eventually gave up. *Whatever it is, it is NOT a gap, nor does it look like a gap in real life. * My best guess is that what you see is the glue itself!

I included some pictures of what it looks like in relation to the thumb.. Maybe the problem was in the perception, because it was SO zoomed in. But I repeat, *THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO GAP.*

Next thing is the WEIGHT. This things is LIGHT. I brought my other guitar which is alder with quilted maple top body, and maple with mahagony neck, and this one piece is around 1kg lighter.. I think its barely heavier than my alder Dean RC7, which is the lightest guitar I have. Next time I will take pictures while weighting it. I'm not sure right now how much it weights because we didn't have a weighting scale there, nor do I have one here at home.

The playability is awesome, but I still want him to remove a little bit of beef from the neck. 

About the "sloppy" nut, he said its not done. He was still adjusting the height and claims that the nut should go little bit more down, so that it wasn't worrying him at all. He didn't even think I'd notice.. which I kinda didn't anyway... 

Also, before you start pointing it out, the bevels on the horns aren't yet done. He wanted to check with me before deciding how to proceed. The whole guitar needs final touch-ups now, and then the finish comes next. So stay tuned, cos we're almost there!


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## wintersun

Part 2:


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## Necromagnon

Are the curves of the body supposed to have those flat sections?
Also, I like the chamfer.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav

Yowza


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## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> Are the curves of the body supposed to have those flat sections?
> Also, I like the chamfer.



Glad you like it! What flat sections tho? 

EDIT: OOOH, you mean the shape? Ya, that was how I drew it.


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## muffinbutton

I think I need some new pants...


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## MF_Kitten

Wow! that's a pretty nice looking guitar, man! I would just oil it and stuff just like that, and not do anything else to it! Mmm, nice and pale!


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## AwDeOh

There's some bloody lovely woodworking in that guitar. It's hard to see amongst all the other parts that are just fucking awesome.


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## Danukenator

Iz A SCAMMMMM!!!

 People an this forum crack me up sometimes. This thing is looking great. I cant wait to see the final product.


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## jahosy

Wow. How did he managed to cut out the cavity covers at the back that matches the wood grain?


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## wintersun

jahosy said:


> Wow. How did he managed to cut out the cavity covers at the back that matches the wood grain?



Yeah, good catch! I'll ask him next time I talk to him


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## Necromagnon

wintersun said:


> Glad you like it! What flat sections tho?
> 
> EDIT: OOOH, you mean the shape? Ya, that was how I drew it.


Yes, that's what I meant. I prefere continous curves, without those "flat"/straight section. But if it's meant to be like this, it's just a matter of taste. 



jahosy said:


> Wow. How did he managed to cut out the cavity covers at the back that matches the wood grain?


There's only 1 possibility, I think: it cut it out from a pice of wood that is "bookmatched" with the piece used for the guitar.
When there's a top, or the possibility at least to cut till the end of your piece (like for hollowbody for example), you can just make a very little hole (with a cone shaped drill bit), and then cut out the plate with a jewel saw directly in the body wood. That way you have a matching grain. But here, he couldn't do that.


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## jahosy

kept thinking about the cavity plates at work today! 

perhaps the luthier 'sliced' off, say, 3-5mm from the bottom of the body ie. he'll get a full super strat body in just 3-5mm to use as cavity plates. Since its only such a thin piece the grains should still match. 

think > slicing a loaf of bread 

IF only its that simply hahaha


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## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> Yes, that's what I meant. I prefere continous curves, without those "flat"/straight section. But if it's meant to be like this, it's just a matter of taste.



Check out my old Roter (which I eventually gave away because it was so messed up)











This was the design I made a long time ago, but eventually improved and made less... well. Intensive. 

And here's a simplified version of the the mockup I gave to Robert. He took care of all the measurements so that everything is in place.


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## Necromagnon

jahosy said:


> perhaps the luthier 'sliced' off, say, 3-5mm from the bottom of the body ie. he'll get a full super strat body in just 3-5mm to use as cavity plates. Since its only such a thin piece the grains should still match.
> 
> think > slicing a loaf of bread


That's the solution when you don't have a table wood or some free space behind bottom wood. There's no, as far as I know, other way to have this matching-grain plates.


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## AwDeOh

I'm pretty sure I know how he did this, but for my own personal amusement I think I'll just appreciate the work and read what everyone else thinks.


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## wintersun

Photoshop people, PHOTOSHOP! It iz a scaaaaaaam after all, right?  

Still haven't checked with him btw


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## 72xmulch

I think the only reason the fretboard "gap" stands out at all is because there are NO other joints on the entire guitar.. I want it, bad.


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## Necromagnon

72xmulch said:


> I think the only reason the fretboard "gap" stands out at all is because there are NO other joints on the entire guitar.. I want it, bad.


I think you didn't read the subject. The fretboard is reported. Or you'll have to tell me how you put the truss rod in your neck (without separated fretboard or skunkstripe).
Also, the fact there's no joint on the guitar has no relation with the gaps.


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## 72xmulch

yeah you're right.. Including the 2 covers on the back its actually a 4 piece almost solid guitar


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## lawizeg

Love the look of it, almost wish it was just natural like that. So subtle..


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## wintersun

Hey guys! Been at Rob's today and made some final reviews before finally having him start with applying finish. I took a few photos to show the weight of the guitar (3.5 kg!!) and some final modifications. Also the flame came out a lot now that he did the final sanding, so i thought I'd show you that as well.

I also took a short video of him jamming on it  Even though hes not exactly used to 7strings, he probably still did much better job than I would, considering I haven't really had a chance to play anything in months now  

I wanted to do some good recordings for you, but I'm having seriusl amounts of EMI here (i've even reported that before here on ss.org), and I wouldn't want you guys to get the wrong impression, cos it really is messing with the tone to a degree. Good thing however is that I will be moving very soon, and then I'll have something for you to listen to.

So yeah, hope you like it.. More pictures soon!





































Later dudes!


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## Jason Spell

My god that is gorgeous.


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## AwDeOh

Fark.. I love it.

Did you ask him how he did the grain matched cavity covers?


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## Necromagnon

Did he tell you how many times it felt before making a decent pic?


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## wintersun

AwDeOh said:


> Fark.. I love it.
> 
> Did you ask him how he did the grain matched cavity covers?



Oh yeah.. he said he wont tell me just yet lol. Told me to try to figure it out on my own


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## wintersun

Necromagnon said:


> Did he tell you how many times it felt before making a decent pic?



Hahaha.. nah I was there all the time  I'm the one behind the camera!


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## the_heretic_divine

Fantastic! This thing looks great!!


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## Riley

wintersun said:


> Oh yeah.. he said he wont tell me just yet lol. Told me to try to figure it out on my own



It's easy. Rip a slice off the back of the board before cutting anything else out. Cut the covers from that piece.


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## ECGuitars

Riley said:


> It's easy. Rip a slice off the back of the board before cutting anything else out. Cut the covers from that piece.



Bingo! Looks good though!


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## Pikka Bird

Riley said:


> It's easy. Rip a slice off the back of the board before cutting anything else out. Cut the covers from that piece.



Exactly. Also, they're not really perfectly matched at all. That's not a critique, BTW, it's just not possible to get it as exact as you could do if you used a top.


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## wintersun

So I asked him if thats how he did it, and he said: "no, I just found a piece from the remains, and played around until I found something that matched."

It is possible that it was a piece that used to reside on top of the current area, but I doubt it, since the plank was barely thick enough already. Hes got a lot of wood at his workshop, so its not all that impossible that he run onto something similar.


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## BlackMastodon

Damn that looks nice! And only 3.5 kg with a Floyd? That's impressive!


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## wintersun

BlackMastodon said:


> Damn that looks nice! And only 3.5 kg with a Floyd? That's impressive!



Yeah.. super light for a flamed maple too! glad you like it


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## Prydogga

This build looks amazing. The "flaws" people were worrying about are so minor, the jump to "getting a refund" really surprised me. 

This looks amazing, and I'm eager to see it finished!


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## straymond

slap my arse and call me judy!!
that's so pornographic I just got somewhat moist.


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## Ganjatron

Inspiring things inside me. Play long and prosper.


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## forshagesan

Madness!


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## Pezshreds

holy amazeballs this is beautiful
congrats dude


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## Mattmc74

Awesome man just plain awesome!


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## donray1527

I cant believe i didnt see this until now. Looks great


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## arsonist

Sorry for the necrobump, but I just found this thread and was unable to refrain from commenting:
This is an absolutely, absolutely beautiful instrument! Congratulations, and I hope it brings you great experiences!


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## WarpedX1

+1 on the above. Did this get finished in the end, is there a NGD link with finished pics?


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## FIXXXER

wintersun said:


> Hey guys! Been at Rob's today and made some final reviews before finally having him start with applying finish. I took a few photos to show the weight of the guitar (3.5 kg!!) and some final modifications. Also the flame came out a lot now that he did the final sanding, so i thought I'd show you that as well.
> 
> I also took a short video of him jamming on it  Even though hes not exactly used to 7strings, he probably still did much better job than I would, considering I haven't really had a chance to play anything in months now
> 
> I wanted to do some good recordings for you, but I'm having seriusl amounts of EMI here (i've even reported that before here on ss.org), and I wouldn't want you guys to get the wrong impression, cos it really is messing with the tone to a degree. Good thing however is that I will be moving very soon, and then I'll have something for you to listen to.
> 
> So yeah, hope you like it.. More pictures soon!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Later dudes!




INSANE BUILD MAN!


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## wintersun

Hey guys! Sorry for keeping you in the dark.

We had some problems with the guitar so it took more time than expected. Namely, it turns out that the amount of carbon we put in wasn't enough, causing some dead zones, and I really didn't want that. We can't say it was either mine or his mistake, as no one could really anticipate how it will react, especially with a one piece. I guess I'm a little to blame, since I wanted the neck a bit thinner than originally expected. The neck just needed to be STIFFER.

So, what he did is removed the fretboard, got rid of the truss rod, and threw in a shit ton of carbon.. and this time used a stiff ebony fingerboard. We also removed some mass from the head, and guess what.. no more dead zones  As you can imagine, this was an insane maneuver, but he got it done. I just had to pay for more carbon fiber rods, and it took a while for them to ship here. So overall, it took way too much time, but it was totally worth it. Plus no more truss rod adjustments for me, as this neck is now over 50% carbon 

Right now the guitar is in the final stages. I just can't really go there and take any pictures, since I moved recently to another city. But, I will keep you posted when it's done.


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## wintersun

Hey everyone!

Sorry for (kindof) necro-bumping, but I think it was about time I post something, right? Finally some good luck for a change, because this thing is a freakin beast! I explained in my previous post why it took so long, and I can tell you right now that, even though many people on the web have reported that it is not possible to completely get rid of dead zones, I actually pulled it off! All it really took was a much stiffer neck, and shit ton of carbon was the best solution. Mr Hent did an amazing job and kept his patience, even though the guitar was already done, and really made it work! There is only one note (G#, 16th fret on E string) that sounds a little shorter than the others do, but I seriously doubt I will ever hold on it for so long to notice. Not much of a blues player either.

Also to get rid of dead zones, we used a more stiffer Ebony fingerboard.

I just spent a few hours playing it, and the tone is really nice and full. Definitely sounds and plays great. I'll let you be the judge of that once I send some recordings. The extra thin neck does wonders, and extra access to the higher frets makes huge difference for me. Even the cutaway at the upper horn makes it so much easier to play up there.

The fact that it's 26" is unnoticeable to me. I can play everything I always did without even thinking about it. If anything, it's much easier to play now, but that's mostly due to the thin neck though.


Some minor negatives:


Although it looks really good, now I'm kind of sorry I went for this blue instead of keeping it natural. The wood grain is more subtle than I expected, but as you can see from the pics, it's still quite there. Maybe I'm just picky.

One important sacrifice in order to get rid of those dead zones was the headstock that now looks kinda like Parker meets Blackmachine or whatever... I'm not exactly happy with it, but hey - it got the job done. Plus the more I look at it, the more I'm getting used to it, so I guess it's fine.

Now, I'm not an expert, but here is what I've learned:

One piece is a big risk for certain wood types. This was obviously a lighter variant of flamed maple, and thus not stiff enough for necks. Either make sure you use a very stiff wood, or shit ton of carbon in the neck. Ideally do BOTH.
Thin neck is a huge risk also. I had it equally thin from top to bottom, but I'm sure I would have less problems if the hi fret area was thicker, as with every other guitar.

So yeah, sorry for taking so long.. It's been here with me for over a month now, but I never could get the time to take pictures and upload. Hope you like them!

I also hope this will help people battle dead zones. Obviously extreme measures were required, but hey... With my luck with guitars, it was really expected


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## wintersun

And some more... Enjoy!


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## TheFashel12

It's great to finally see this completed 
The end product is absolutely amazing and I love the body shape that you designed 
Congrats!


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## Necromagnon

Nice. He did a very nice job with the finish (and the rest).
About the risks you say with 1 piece, I would add that it's also very very highly wood consuming. So if you go with some epic exotic wood, keep in mind that you waste probably around 75% of the base lumber...

Glad to see it finished and to see you happy with it.


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## 7 Strings of Hate

Came out great. I would have left it blonde personally though. But that dude defiantly does some amazing work. After building a handfull of guitars, I cant imagine how hard it would be to make a 1 piece.





Oh, and this guy should go off and die somewhere  A refund? Its not rocket science to cut a nut, but try watching someone do it on a 1 piece. Its much more difficult. 


Le Jeff said:


> I don't mean to be a dink or anything but I suggest you start trying to get a refund. Routeing a nut slot and gluing a fretboard on aren't rocket surgery but this guy ....ed both up and then proudly sent you pictures of his work. Plus, just because the guitar ends up 'looking pretty' doesn't mean you're not going to know that the fretboard was glued on with the wrong stuff and improperly.


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## VSK Guitars

That came out great man, congrats on your NGD!!!

I would have fought you tooth and nail to keep it natural though


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## DarkWolfXV

Truly amazing, congrats man!


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## Pikka Bird

That turned out above great! I'm one of those people who can't stand the BM headstock (really), and I totally love the one you have there. Definitely not a downgrade.


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## wintersun

Swirltop said:


> That came out great man, congrats on your NGD!!!
> 
> I would have fought you tooth and nail to keep it natural though



Haha, yeah, if I ever get another one made, I'm almost certain it will be a blonde, or at least some more natural color. But now that I took those pictures and seen it in the daylight, I'm 100% sure it was the right move. That blue looks just awesome to me.


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## CaptainLuckeyBeard

So stoked this came out well for you! People around here seem to be quick to jump on the refund wagon hahah


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## frahmans

wintersun said:


> Haha, yeah, if I ever get another one made, I'm almost certain it will be a blonde, or at least some more natural color. But now that I took those pictures and seen it in the daylight, I'm 100% sure it was the right move. That blue looks just awesome to me.



Headstock is pretty neat actually.


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