# Personal Hanneman guitars for sale



## MetalheadMC (Jul 23, 2015)

You Can Buy Jeff Hanneman's Personal Guitars Right Now! - Metal Injection

Sick guitars, but damn what a price


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## canuck brian (Jul 23, 2015)

MetalheadMC said:


> You Can Buy Jeff Hanneman's Personal Guitars Right Now! - Metal Injection
> 
> Sick guitars, but damn what a price



You too can have guitars with the Schutzstaffel Death's Head, SS logos and inlays!

I love Slayer, but Hanneman's obsession with Nazi-paraphernalia went past being interested to having some of the most tasteless possible guitars made. In the past he pawned it off as being just interested, but having guitars with that crap all over it is a new level of bad taste and tact.

A good equivalent is if i had a guitar with a huge rebel flag and a noose as my inlays. If that image offends you, then pretty much all of the guitars that you're seeing for sale from the Hanneman estate should offend you equally or more.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

What "portion" of it goes to charity? Seems like someone trying to cash in on him passing considering they just sort of breezed over the charity part.



canuck brian said:


> You too can have guitars with the Schutzstaffel Death's Head, SS logos and inlays!
> 
> I love Slayer, but Hanneman's obsession with Nazi-paraphernalia went past being interested to having some of the most tasteless possible guitars made. In the past he pawned it off as being just interested, but having guitars with that crap all over it is a new level of bad taste and tact.
> 
> A good equivalent is if i had a guitar with a huge rebel flag and a noose as my inlays. If that image offends you, then pretty much all of the guitars that you're seeing for sale from the Hanneman estate should offend you equally or more.




I only just now gave those guitars a good once over. My god... 

Don't sell Confederate flags... But go ahead an auction these off at a higher price than any flag will ever go for...


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## canuck brian (Jul 23, 2015)

In case anyone's a little confused:

Jeff's Guitar







Heinrich Himmler, Commander of the Nazi SS - please note the Death's Head on his cap. It was their symbol.


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## TheShreddinHand (Jul 23, 2015)

Come on guys....nothing says Mother's Day like a nice Nazi covered guitar! I got next year covered!


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Breaking news... Jeff Hanneman was obsessed with WWII German paraphernalia.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2015)

I don't really find these any more tasteless than other guitars with graphics some groups might find insensitive. Examples being the Dean CadiKills with dead fetus graphics, tons of Learn Jacksons with topless/scantly clad women, guitars with symbols of paganism/mysticism that might offend. 

I get it, the Nazis were the most evil SOBs the world had pretty much seen up to that point. They were sci-fi villain level terrible. 

I don't think symbols like these should be thrown in a vault and forgotten. The world needs constant reminders that they exist and what was done in their name in the hope that it serves an example of what never to do again. 

My grandfather, who was Jewish, fought in WWII and picked up a fair share of "war spoils" on his tour of Europe. When he passed I was put in charge of going through his war stuff and there was tons of Nazi decorated items. I talked to a lot of collectors of this stuff and while there were a few Neo-Nazi pieces of crap, the greater majority of collectors of this stuff just have a respect for the historical aspect. 

But that's just my opinion.


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## Mike (Jul 23, 2015)

I want to know why ESP has no idea when the guitars were made. They make the fvckin things in their custom shop, have databases of serial numbers and customers (plus this was obviously a high profile user), and the best they can do is circa?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2015)

Mike said:


> I want to know why ESP has no idea when the guitars were made. They make the fvckin things in their custom shop, have databases of serial numbers and customers (plus this was obviously a high profile user), and the best they can do is circa?



That's a recent development, good bookkeeping. 

Even into the late 90's and early 00's they kept very little record of what was coming and going. 

ESP has been a constantly evolving company with numerous shops, employees, and contractors over the years. 

They just really didn't have their crap together, look at all the weird spot runs and odd batches of stuff from the 90's.

I think it's a Japanese thing. It's next to impossible to find Japanese catalogs for ESP, Ibanez, Fernandes, etc. It's like they didn't want any record of what they were doing. It works a bit differently over there. Stores pretty much order what they want, as far limited and special models so it makes no sense to print a new catalog if it's so partial. But, like I said, it seems they're getting better are record keeping.


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## WolleK (Jul 23, 2015)

For me it makes a big difference whether you collect things from the past to remember history, or if someone paints unspeakable symbols on his guitar in our time.


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## Alex Kenivel (Jul 23, 2015)

Capitalizing from death. Either the worst money grabbing spree or the best band name ever.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> Breaking news... Jeff Hanneman was obsessed with WWII German paraphernalia.



Breaking news: Not everyone hangs on tightly enough to famous people's genitals to know their every move... In fact, some of us don't really care to know who they are outside of what they're famous for in the first place. Imagine that...


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## Rosal76 (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> What "portion" of it goes to charity? Seems like someone trying to cash in on him passing considering they just sort of breezed over the charity part.



I believe the portion of the charity will go to the "Wounded Warriors Project". An organization formed to help military veterans in need.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

I didn't ask what charity it was. Read that quote again. Every time I give $0.50 to a homeless person that's technically charity...


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## Mike (Jul 23, 2015)

Yeah I guess it really is a fairly recent development for them. I had a viper 407 I was selling a few years ago that I wanted more info on. They couldn't tell me exactly when it was made. Only that it was probably manufactured between 2004 and 2007


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

Sounds like trying to date a Yamaha saxophone... There's a period between the 70s and 80s where they just have no clue.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Sounds like trying to date a Yamaha saxophone... There's a period between the 70s and 80s where they just have no clue.



Another Japanese company.


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## Esp Griffyn (Jul 23, 2015)

Man I wish I could own one of these, what a legend Jeff was.


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## Rosal76 (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Every time I give $0.50 to a homeless person that's technically charity...



The WWP is a charity organization that takes money. Some of the veterans in the organization are homeless and therefore, the money for Hannemans' guitars are going to them.


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## Rosal76 (Jul 23, 2015)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Man I wish I could own one of these, what a legend Jeff was.



The B.C. Rich one right?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2015)

Rosal76 said:


> The WWP is a charity organization that takes money. Some of the veterans in the organization are homeless and therefore, the money for Hannemans' guitars are going to them.



I think what he's asking is _what percentage_ of that $12k is going to charity. 

Is it a token "going to charity" amount like .05%, which is a measly $6, or is it something like 5% where there's a real amount going to charity. 

Usually, the token amount is used to maximize profit while trying to bring in big bids on the auspice of it being charity. 

It's a good question to ask.


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Breaking news: Not everyone hangs on tightly enough to famous people's genitals to know their every move... In fact, some of us don't really care to know who they are outside of what they're famous for in the first place. Imagine that...



No need for ball hanging to know that. It's been covered ad nauseam in the metal and non-metal press for years. I mean it's not really a shocker considering the song he is arguably most famous for is about the "Angel of Death" himself, Josef Mengele. They have always been a band that liked to use shocking imagery in the music and anything else related to the band. I mean the Eagle in the Abyss Logo is loosely a rip off of the National Socialist German Workers' Party emblem.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

And clearly there are people in the world who don't pay attention to any of that sh!t... The amount of information you have right there alone suggests you've been following this at least to some degree. If the idea that you might be on his nuts bothers you, I dunno what to tell you...


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## Rosal76 (Jul 23, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think what he's asking is _what percentage_ of that $12k is going to charity.



Ahhh. Gotcha.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> No need for ball hanging to know that. It's been covered ad nauseam in the metal and non-metal press for years. I mean it's not really a shocker considering the song he is arguably most famous for is about the "Angel of Death" himself, Josef Mengele. They have always been a band that liked to use shocking imagery in the music and anything else related to the band. I mean the Eagle in the Abyss Logo is loosely a rip off of the National Socialist German Workers' Party emblem.



I'm going to go out on a limb and say the greater majority of casual Slayer listeners aren't remotely aware of all that.


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Again... Clearly not everyone follows that. Apparently you're completely unaware of the possiblity that I might hear a band's music w/o ever having seen an album cover... Or even caring to... Sometimes you're in a car with someone and a song comes on and you say... "Oh this is cool... Who is it? Oh Slayer? Nice..." *world keeps spinning*
> 
> ... But now you know...



Ok fine dude. It is pretty general issue knowledge to the common metal listener though. Though maybe you are younger and missed out when people really made a big deal of it.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

Or maybe I'm not the common metal listener... 

That statement suggests you made a lot of assumptions...


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## Alex Kenivel (Jul 23, 2015)

I loved Slayer when I was a teen (early 2000s) but never knew about the Nazi feces either


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## lemeker (Jul 23, 2015)

I like the Raiders one. That zombie skull is cool as hell. I wonder if they are doing this with his Jackson's (if they haven't already)?


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> I loved Slayer when I was a teen (early 2000s) but never knew about the Nazi feces either


I'm guessing they maybe made a bigger deal about it in the 80s and 90s... I mean Angel of Death is about Mengelev (sp?) so yea I know they talked about "shocking" things, but I don't adorn myself in all the shocking things I've been known to discuss... 

That said, I don't really so much care that these guitars have these emblems on them or whatever. I also don't necessarily know if this is the same thing as collecting WWII memorabilia... This just seems like a dude letting you know he was a hateful kunt via the use of bumper stickers, but rather than putting them on a car, he has them on his guitar.


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Well crap the bed, I must be in the minority, everyone I know has heard of it being linked to them.  I do like WWII history a lot and maybe I am more observant in general. I mean, I've never listened to Insane Clown Posse, but I do know they look like clowns.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 23, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> You too can have guitars with the Schutzstaffel Death's Head, SS logos and inlays!
> 
> I love Slayer, but Hanneman's obsession with Nazi-paraphernalia went past being interested to having some of the most tasteless possible guitars made. In the past he pawned it off as being just interested, but having guitars with that crap all over it is a new level of bad taste and tact.
> 
> A good equivalent is if i had a guitar with a huge rebel flag and a noose as my inlays. If that image offends you, then pretty much all of the guitars that you're seeing for sale from the Hanneman estate should offend you equally or more.





Were they singing nursery rhymes or something? 
It is Slayer gear, what do you expect?



R.I.P. Jeff


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> This just seems like a dude letting you know he was a hateful kunt via the use of bumper stickers, but rather than putting them on a car, he has them on his guitar.



It is pretty much that, Jeff Hanneman hated a lot of things and he didn't mind showing it.


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> I loved Slayer when I was a teen (early 2000s) but never knew about the Nazi feces either



Well know you do, haha.


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## lemeker (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> I'm guessing they maybe made a bigger deal about it in the 80s and 90s...




It did come up a lot more back then. I can remember on more than one occasion where it was brought up in article of some sort. 

I never really cared bout whatever he liked or disliked, just always thought Slayer rocked.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

I find it's easier to enjoy people's work when you don't know them personally.


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## Andromalia (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Breaking news: Not everyone hangs on tightly enough to famous people's genitals to know their every move... In fact, some of us don't really care to know who they are outside of what they're famous for in the first place. Imagine that...



Well, his taste for that sort of thing isn't really new and has made some noise over the years. We can explain while you're finishing your hibernation recovery. 
J/K

Lemmy has the same thing for all WWII stuff, his house is full of nazi mementos.

About the guitars, well, if nobody in the family is gonna play them they might as well sell them, although given Hanneman's position in the history of heavy metal I wish at least one ends up in a museum somewhere.
Preferably, the Raider.... Jackson, which is his most iconic guitar to me.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> I find it's easier to enjoy people's work when you don't know them personally.




I'm kind of the same way with videos and live vs just hearing the music.
Depends on the artist, but sometimes having the visual/show aspect sort of alters my mental image of the concept for better or worse.


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## Seventhwave (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> I find it's easier to enjoy people's work when you don't know them personally.



Haha. The internet pretty much ruined Megadeth for me  Well, that and 20+ years of .... music.


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## lemeker (Jul 23, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> Lemmy has the same thing for all WWII stuff, his house is full of nazi mementos.




Lemmy's been around so long, I think he actually fought in WWII.


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## Alex Kenivel (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> Well know you do, haha.



And now I think it's extra funny that Public Enemy sampled Angel of Death


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## vilk (Jul 23, 2015)

I've never cared about Slayer. I feel lucky to have been born so that by the time I was 12 and getting into metal Slayer was already old news and lost it's edge. *They have some good, famous riffs--this no one, not even I can deny*. And in addition, they have ....ty vocals, ....ty drumming, and ....ty lyrics, ....ty guitar solos, ....ty imagery, ....ty fans, and too much fame despite it.


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## canuck brian (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> Breaking news... Jeff Hanneman was obsessed with WWII German paraphernalia.



Breaking news - putting giant SS logos on your guitars and having giant Death's Head's graphics on your guitars is a hair short of having giant goddamn Nazi swastikas on your guitar. You might as well at that point. If the Death's Head SS graphic and the SS logos are acceptable, why wouldn't a fretboard full of swastikas and a graphic of the entrance to Auchwitz be acceptable? 

It's also not remotely the same as a dead fetus on a Dean guitar. The Dean is tasteless, but at least they're not referencing a murderous regime bent on wiping out an entire culture.

Trench - theres a serious difference in singing Angel of Death, which one could just argue is a song about the horrors of the Nazi regime (which Slayer has openly done), and having guitars made covered in Nazi garbage. 

In case you're wondering, the Holocaust is a little close to home, so i really dont' like seeing dumbasses throwing these goddamn symbols of butchery and murder around while shrugging it of like they dont' mean anything.


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## Mprinsje (Jul 23, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> Well, his taste for that sort of thing isn't really new and has made some noise over the years. We can explain while you're finishing your hibernation recovery.
> J/K
> 
> *Lemmy has the same thing for all WWII stuff, his house is full of nazi mementos.*
> ...



But he hasn't got his basses painted with SS runes and deathshead skulls does he now?


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> If the Death's Head SS graphic and the SS logos are acceptable, why wouldn't a fretboard full of swastikas and a graphic of the entrance to Auschwitz be acceptable?



I can't help you on that answer boss, your going to need either a shovel or a Ouija board to take it up with the man who ordered them that way. I'm just saying it wasn't a secret that Hanneman collected the stuff. Have you seen his guitars before this? Maybe ESP doesn't care what they put on your guitars.


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## Mprinsje (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> I can't help you on that answer boss, your going to need either a shovel or a Ouija board to take it up with the man who ordered them that way. I'm just saying it wasn't a secret that Hanneman collected the stuff. Have you seen his guitars before this? *Maybe ESP doesn't care what they put on your guitars.*



They probably don't as long as you're one of their most well known endorsees.


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## MetalheadMC (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> I can't help you on that answer boss, your going to need either a shovel or a Ouija board to take it up with the man who ordered them that way. I'm just saying it wasn't a secret that Hanneman collected the stuff. Have you seen his guitars before this? Maybe ESP doesn't care what they put on your guitars.



Of course not when there's $$$ involved. 

I'm sorry if I'm insensitive to this subject, but I honestly see no problem with what he put on his guitars. It's a FREE country. He had the right to put whatever he wanted on there.

I dont remember any African Americans complaining because dimebag had a rebel flag dean made, or synyster gates' rebel flag schecter.


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Mprinsje said:


> But he hasn't got his basses painted with SS runes and deathshead skulls does he now?



No Lemmy just wears that crap like it is a fashion accessory.


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## Mprinsje (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> No Lemmy just wears that crap like it is a fashion accessory.
> 
> *pic*
> 
> ...



Eh, got me there.


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## Mprinsje (Jul 23, 2015)

MetalheadMC said:


> Of course not when there's $$$ involved.
> 
> I'm sorry if I'm insensitive to this subject, but I honestly see no problem with what he put on his guitars. It's a FREE country. He had the right to put whatever he wanted on there.
> 
> I dont remember any African Americans complaining because dimebag had a rebel flag dean made, or synyster gates' rebel flag schecter.



Of course he has the right to do it, but to a lot (a whole lot) of people nazi's are pretty controversial and painting your guitar with nazi stuff might be found offensive to a lot of people. He obviously didn't really care about that. 

And let's be really honest here. People who listen to metal are mostly white people, who are less likely to take offense to a rebel flag (i think, not 'murican). While those same white people might have a problem with a genocidal regime.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 23, 2015)

Those shorts, tho... 

Also... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHLgryJKwvU

Some black people proudly sport rebel flags. It doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. And some black people REALLY just don't give damn. I don't know any Jews that would proudly sport anything Nazi related like that...


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Mprinsje said:


> They probably don't as long as you're one of their most well known endorsees.



Well I guess that isn't completely true, they did stop making these because of the logos. They were the unit insignia for the 12th SS Panzer Division.


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## MetalheadMC (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Those shorts, tho...
> 
> Also...
> 
> ...



I've never seen a black person sport the rebel flag. I just threw the comparison out because it was brought up, especially after the rebel flag fiasco was blown up because of the South Carolina incident


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## canuck brian (Jul 23, 2015)

JD27 said:


> I can't help you on that answer boss, your going to need either a shovel or a Ouija board to take it up with the man who ordered them that way. I'm just saying it wasn't a secret that Hanneman collected the stuff. Have you seen his guitars before this? Maybe ESP doesn't care what they put on your guitars.



I've been listening to slayer for 25 years. I'm quite aware of what is on Jeff's guitars. 

My question wasn't poised to Jeff - it was poised to the people who think that it's totally ok to have what Jeff had on his guitars and what the response would be for something similar, but a little more obvious. As in:

If you're ok with the SS logos, Death's head and various other Nazi stuff, you should be ok with a guitar with swastikas for inlays and the entrace to Auchwitz on the face of the guitar right?

If you have a problem with the first and not the second, I would love to hear how it's not just as bad.


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## JD27 (Jul 23, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> I've been listening to slayer for 25 years. I'm quite aware of what is on Jeff's guitars.
> 
> My question wasn't poised to Jeff - it was poised to the people who think that it's totally ok to have what Jeff had on his guitars and what the response would be for something similar, but a little more obvious. As in:
> 
> ...



Ok, I got what you are saying now.


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## MetalGravy (Jul 23, 2015)

Some of those kind of reminded me of DeVries--anyone remember that asshole?


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## DancingCloseToU (Jul 23, 2015)

MetalGravy said:


> Some of those kind of reminded me of DeVries--anyone remember that asshole?



I sure do. Those threads were a riot. Pretty sure I got my moniker from those cheap Chinese Floyd knock offs he was using... "Rhythm in jump, dancing close to you"

These ESPs though, with a starting bid of $12k, I can't imagine what they are expected to go for. It sounds a bit excessive. I suppose if someone is a die hard fan and really wants to support the charity.


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## Unburdened (Jul 23, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Sounds like trying to date a Yamaha saxophone...



The first part of this comment confused me immensely...
Date, as in chronology. Not as in mating.
D'OH


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## feraledge (Jul 24, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> Breaking news - putting giant SS logos on your guitars and having giant Death's Head's graphics on your guitars is a hair short of having giant goddamn Nazi swastikas on your guitar.



Kerry King had that one covered:


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## feraledge (Jul 24, 2015)

MetalheadMC said:


> I'm sorry if I'm insensitive to this subject, but I honestly see no problem with what he put on his guitars. It's a FREE country. He had the right to put whatever he wanted on there.
> 
> I dont remember any African Americans complaining because dimebag had a rebel flag dean made, or synyster gates' rebel flag schecter.



I wouldn't say the outrage with this is merely a matter of sensitivity, though I'm not wanting to speak for others here. I _prefer_ that racists boastfully use racist imagery so that there's no mistaking their intents. If it's a matter of rights, they have the right to do that and anyone else has the right to respond. 
But, seriously, why be aloof about the implications of racist images and symbols and adverse to people reacting to them. I don't doubt that Slayer wanted to provoke, but if they are/were comfortable using those symbols, then that says something about them doesn't it? 
And this whole thing about collecting paraphernalia is something that makes no sense to me. I think that's garbage. But that aside, there's a difference between having a death's head whatever in your home and opting to mass produce it onto your signature guitar. That overrides any aspect of being "historic" and reduces it solely to the symbol that it is: an unquestionably racist one (or in this case he regularly employed a number of them).
I was wee-metalhead when Slayer was gaining speed and even then I wasn't getting behind that. If a 6-8 year old kid could figure that stuff out, I'm not sure what anyone else's excuses would be. 

As to the last comment, I'm not sure what world you live on, but Pantera's rebel flags have _always_ raised issues. I don't need to be African American to have held that against them or anyone else raising that flag myself from the outset.


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## Humbuck (Jul 24, 2015)

Jeff didn't care what you all think.


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## Blytheryn (Jul 24, 2015)

JD27 said:


> Well I guess that isn't completely true, they did stop making these because of the logos. They were the unit insignia for the 12th SS Panzer Division.



Am I seriously messed up for wanting one of these purely based on the shock value you would get from owning one?


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## Dcm81 (Jul 24, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> and the entrace to Auchwitz on the face of the guitar right?



Not really trying to be funny here but it is kina ironic that you misspelled (sp?) Ausschwitz as Auchwitz.......cause "AuchWitz" literally translated from German means "AlsoJoke". No attack meant canuck brian



Blytheryn said:


> Am I seriously messed up for wanting one of these purely based on the shock value you would get from owning one?



No. Just regular, everyday messed up


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## zappatton2 (Jul 24, 2015)

Man, I used to be_ obsessed_ with Slayer in the early 90's, every second t-shirt I had was Slayer, but I really wasn't aware of all the non-swastika Nazi symbols back then, and a friend really took the piss out of me for some of the things that were on a couple of my shirts. I could have gotten my back up and been defensive, but I actually felt really terrible and got rid of the shirts.

I'm all for shock value, and the Satanic element of early metal always amused me (I'm not big on the religion thing), but this stuff is my line in the sand. I wouldn't take these guitars if they were free. Still miss Jeff, and each to their own, but yeah, not for me.


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## canuck brian (Jul 24, 2015)

Humbuck said:


> Jeff didn't care what you all think.



No kidding! Did you listen to Divine Intervention and World Painted Blood? Jesus.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jul 24, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> Breaking news - putting giant SS logos on your guitars and having giant Death's Head's graphics on your guitars is a hair short of having giant goddamn Nazi swastikas on your guitar. You might as well at that point. If the Death's Head SS graphic and the SS logos are acceptable, why wouldn't a fretboard full of swastikas and a graphic of the entrance to Auchwitz be acceptable?
> 
> It's also not remotely the same as a dead fetus on a Dean guitar. The Dean is tasteless, but at least they're not referencing a murderous regime bent on wiping out an entire culture.
> 
> ...



This is the last post I made it to, but I felt like commenting anyway. I find it amusing that people keep calling it WWII stuff and not Nazi stuff. There was a lot more interesting .... going on in WWII than just the Nazi's. Yeah, its pretty tasteless and it just further cements that I just don't like slayer. Boring music, with cheesy boring "too old to be acting that way" members. Add on top that one was obsessed with Nazi paraphernalia, and my opinion remains the same.

I've known people to collect exclusively Nazi stuff under the guise of WWII stuff. They've all been racist twats, which means they treated me poorly. 

Anyway, I'm betting its just a cash grab just like anything released with dime's name on it. Can't really fault them for trying.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jul 24, 2015)

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but Slayer has always been intentionally provocative. Obviously plenty of metal bands venture deep into dark subject matter that they might not personally believe in, but Slayer is pretty much the king of doing that. The more evil of an image they could project, the better. 

There's also that interview Tom Araya did for Metal: A Headbanger's Journey, which I'm sure most of you have already seen. Worth watching again though, especially since it's like a minute long. In it, he states that a lot of what Slayer does is an act, particularly when it comes to religious subject matter. Why did they name an album "God Hates Us All" if one of them is a devout Catholic? Because it'd piss people off, and that's what Slayer does.

In regards to the Nazi stuff, I'm not familiar enough with Jeff's personal views to know if he was a bigot or not. But I guess my stance on it is this: we give Slayer a pass on _a lot_ of stuff, but Nazi symbolism is where we draw the line? Not only have they expressed more offensive things through their music, they've also made those things more widely accessible. Here we're just talking about inlays on 3 guitars. 

And as for the people equating all Nazi symbolism with the concentration camps, that's a pretty misguided thing to do. The Himmler skull is one thing, but the SS insignia certainly was not a direct symbol of the Final Solution even though certain branches of the SS were in charge of the labour and extermination camps during the war. Without knowing Jeff's own views, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable labelling him a Neo-Nazi just because he liked to use that insignia as inlays on his guitars. Who knows what meaning he ascribed to it, and why he put it there.

Anyway, here's the Araya vid:


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## feraledge (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> And as for the people equating all Nazi symbolism with the concentration camps, that's a pretty misguided thing to do.



Funny thing about that statement is that it's absolutely false. 
Why the f_u_ck would anyone want to make this faux-distinction? Nazis are Nazis. You don't see people with shaved heads and swastikas who were really just fans of Nazi septic innovations. Come on.


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## JD27 (Jul 24, 2015)

I think it was more along the lines of him not caring what people thought and what you just mentioned about the band liking to intentionally piss people off. Apparently, he really liked WWII history in general. 

JEFF HANNEMAN UPDATE - 5-9-13 | The Official Slayer Site

"KERRY: "He was a gigantic World War II buff, his father served in that war, so when Slayer played Russia for the first time - I think it was 1998 - Jeff and I went to one of Moscow's military museums. I'll never forget him walking around that place, looking at all of the tanks, weapons and other exhibits. He was like a kid on Christmas morning. But that was Jeff's thing, he knew so much about WW II history, he could have taught it in school."


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## Randy (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> And as for the people equating all Nazi symbolism with the concentration camps, that's a pretty misguided thing to do



Good point. Not all Nazis committed Jews to concentration camps. Some shot them instead!


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## Randy (Jul 24, 2015)

JD27 said:


> "KERRY: "He was a gigantic World War II buff, his father served in that war, so when Slayer played Russia for the first time - I think it was 1998 - Jeff and I went to one of Moscow's military museums. I'll never forget him walking around that place, looking at all of the tanks, weapons and other exhibits. He was like a kid on Christmas morning. But that was Jeff's thing, he knew so much about WW II history, he could have taught it in school."



And if he decided he wanted the RAF symbol on his guitars instead, we wouldn't be having this debate.


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## canuck brian (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> And as for the people equating all Nazi symbolism with the concentration camps, that's a pretty misguided thing to do. The Himmler skull is one thing, but the SS insignia certainly was not a direct symbol of the Final Solution even though certain branches of the SS were in charge of the labour and extermination camps during the war. Without knowing Jeff's own views, I personally wouldn't feel comfortable labelling him a Neo-Nazi just because he liked to use that insignia as inlays on his guitars. Who knows what meaning he ascribed to it, and why he put it there.
> 
> Anyway, here's the Araya vid:



I didn't label him a neo-nazi. I labeled him a dumbass.

Can we not have degrees of acceptance of Nazi imagery? " Yeah, they're the SS, but they weren't THAT bad." Seriously?



"KERRY: "He was a gigantic World War II buff, his father served in that war, so when Slayer played Russia for the first time - I think it was 1998 - Jeff and I went to one of Moscow's military museums. I'll never forget him walking around that place, looking at all of the tanks, weapons and other exhibits. He was like a kid on Christmas morning. But that was Jeff's thing, he knew so much about WW II history, he could have taught it in school"

So if I was a US Civil War Confederacy buff because of a blood relative at some point being involved, i could get away with any imagery concerning slavery, lynchings etc because I'm interested in it? Again, i'm not labeling Jeff as a neo-nazi, but I am labeling him as a dumbass for having that crap.


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## JD27 (Jul 24, 2015)

feraledge said:


> Funny thing about that statement is that it's absolutely false.
> Why the f_u_ck would anyone want to make this faux-distinction? Nazis are Nazis. You don't see people with shaved heads and swastikas who were really just fans of Nazi septic innovations. Come on.



The Deaths Head had a long history prior to Nazi use though, although it was a slightly different design. As a matter of fact the ESP signature Michael Wilton has is the original design. The design the Nazis used is slightly different.

The SS took interest in its use in general. The Death Head units "SS-Totenkopfverbände" that administered the camps all wore the insignia The 3rd SS Panzer Division (Waffen-SS) was well known for using enlisted soldiers that were at the camps. There unit insignia was also the Totenkopf. Also Hitlers bodyguards used the insignia.


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## JD27 (Jul 24, 2015)

Randy said:


> And if he decided he wanted the RAF symbol on his guitars instead, we wouldn't be having this debate.



Hey I never said it was right or agreed with it. I'm just saying it appears that's what influenced him to do it.


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## JD27 (Jul 24, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> Again, i'm not labeling Jeff as a neo-nazi, but *I am labeling him as a dumbass for having that crap.*



Haha, well yeah.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jul 24, 2015)

feraledge said:


> Funny thing about that statement is that it's absolutely false.
> Why the f_u_ck would anyone want to make this faux-distinction? Nazis are Nazis. You don't see people with shaved heads and swastikas who were really just fans of Nazi septic innovations. Come on.



Well, I'm not sure what history books you've been reading, but yeah, the SS were involved in more things than just the concentration camps. I'm not sure how you construed that point into "the Nazis were great, let's not be closed-minded." What I'm saying is that Jeff using the SS insignia on his guitars didn't necessarily mean he wished he could be marching Jews into gas chambers rather than be playing in Slayer. And since when was Hanneman a skinhead covered in Swastikas, anyway? This situation seems to be a lot more subtle than that, so don't throw the baby out with the bath water. 



> Good point. Not all Nazis committed Jews to concentration camps. Some shot them instead!



And some shot none at all! And some allied soldiers raped and pillaged! It's almost as if World Wars are big, multifaceted things that are full of all kinds of atrocities. Look, my point isn't that National Socialism wasn't a terrible thing, it was. I'm saying that interpreting Jeff's use of the SS insignia as a symptom of his hate for Jews is a misguided thing to do. The Nazis committed terrible crimes against many groups of people, not just the Jews, and different branches of the SS (let alone the German military as a whole) were responsible for carrying out different commands. Add to this the fact that Hanneman was a WWII buff and I think it's a little presumptuous to assume he was an anti-semitic Neo-Nazi of some kind. It just seems like a leap to me. 



> Can we not have degrees of acceptance of Nazi imagery? " Yeah, they're the SS, but they weren't THAT bad." Seriously?



That's actually what I'm arguing for. I'm saying that we shouldn't jump the gun and label a guy as being a Neo-Nazi just because he uses some of their symbolism on his guitars (which, by the way, he happens to play in the context of a politically charged metal band). And anyway, at what point did I say that the SS "weren't THAT bad"? Give me some credit here. 

This is the problem with discussing anything involving the Nazi's. If you try to bring any subtlety to the discussion people act like you're a Nazi-sympathizer.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 24, 2015)

Nazis are more evil than Satan...the images conveys a strong message, which is surely more known than a pentagram or the symbols Morbid Angel use.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> snip



Strawman. Please find a quote from posters in this thread saying Jeff was a skinhead Neo-Nazi.


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## Hyacinth (Jul 24, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think symbols like these should be thrown in a vault and forgotten. The world needs constant reminders that they exist and what was done in their name in the hope that it serves an example of what never to do again.



There are two kinds of people who would buy a guitar with Nazi symbols and names all over it. 1: Collectors who value the historical significance. 2: Neo-Nazi assholes. Any normal person isn't going to buy one of those guitars "as an example of what never to do again" because any normal person doesn't need constant reminding that the Nazis were evil. Like I doubt the guy who ends up buying the guitar will be sitting there one day contemplating committing genocide then look up and see the guitar and say, "Oh yeah, good thing I had that reminder. Genocide is bad."


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## vilk (Jul 24, 2015)

war/military isn't black and white. Germany was united in it's persecution of the Jews, and while genocide is terrible, it did in some ways lift Germany up. I believe we're hard on Nazis these days because they're fairly easy to demonize. But really I'm sure we can find infinite examples of despicable military actions across history.

You know, USA probably killed about 1 million Vietnamese. We napalmed villages and schools. It was a war of aggression started by the government. I don't think it's that insane to imagine Germany doing something similar. They strung up Jews, but don't tell me we weren't just as adamant about stringing up "commies". How do you feel about people who have Vietnam War paraphernalia? 
_That's different! Vietnam soldiers were conscripted against their will!_. So were Nazis. 

So is a shirt with a confederate flag less offensive than Nazi symbols? Like, only if you subjectively believe that the stuff Nazis did was worse than stuff Confederates did. How can you judge that? Body count only? The Nazis are the worst just because they killed the most? I guess that makes sense. Does them being the "worst" make it more offensive on a principle level? I'm not sure that I think so.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 24, 2015)

vilk said:


> I believe we're hard on Nazis these days because they're fairly easy to demonize.



I agree. It's easy to demonize a group of people responsible for the deaths of 11 million people due to their religious beliefs, color of their skin, and sexuality. It's like people over-react to genocide or something. 

I can't believe I actually read that. The US has done some ...., but what the Nazi's did were beyond villainous.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

vilk said:


> but don't tell me we weren't just as adamant about stringing up "commies".



Yes, we totally set up death camps and exterminated hundreds of thousands of our own citizens because they were "communist".

Don't be daft.


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## JD27 (Jul 24, 2015)

vilk said:


> _That's different! Vietnam soldiers were conscripted against their will!_. *So were Nazis. *



Actually as both the SS and Waffen-SS were the paramilitary wing of the Nazi Party, there were certain requirements for service. One of them being you were a party member. So if you were a legit German SS member you were definitely in line with the Nazi thinking. 

Later in the war, the SS began using conscripts from other countries made of up either ethnic Germans or volunteers and even other ethnicities. They did not have to meet those requirements. Those groups were under Waffen-SS command, but the SS did not officially recognize them as SS members. By the time the war was over, there were actually more foreign SS troops than Germans.


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## vilk (Jul 24, 2015)

I don't condone Nazism (or that dude's lame guitars). Ethnically, I'm Jewish. I'm just saying it's 'daft' to think of an entire state structure from cafeteria lady to shoemaker to ss officer as a single entity of evil. Hitler was evil. The people who went about killing, (if it wasn't because they were forced to), were evil. But I'm just disagreeing with the notions that Nazis are "more evil" because they managed to kill more people. Or because of why they kill people, because that's basically "decided" by the top guys. The guys at the bottom who are killing people are doing it because the people who are their bosses told them that they have to. That's how the military works. Military imperialist movements all do the same thing: kill people because of something or other. Nazis killed people because of their religious beliefs, ethnicity... um, that's like the same reasons people kill each other _all the time_.

You guys are saying, "you can't draw a line between acceptable nazi stuff and unacceptable nazi stuff", I'm saying you can't draw a line between nazi mass murder and the rest of military mass murder that happens about any kind of bull.... It's just that Nazis are more easy to define, wear badguy colors, talk like they're always angry, and happened to kill the most people


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## Andromalia (Jul 24, 2015)

Mprinsje said:


> But he hasn't got his basses painted with SS runes and deathshead skulls does he now?



His custom Rickenbacker copy is actually depicting Oak leaves.







It's a little less obvious but the source is the same.







Please note, for the record, I'm of jewish descent and don't give a fig about it. I myself like war equipment from ancient Rome. Lemmy is nuts enough about war equipment there's a video of him going to a place to shoot stuff with a refubished and in working order WW2 tank. It's on youtube if you want to see it.


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## neurosis (Jul 24, 2015)

I saw the images yesterday. Some of the designs were new to me, especially the guitar with the names on it. 

Initially my reaction was damn here is this .... again, a reminder of all this horrible stuff. Why would somebody want to make a display of this. 

It didn't take long to realize that there is a context to all this. The same way other bands have appropriated religious symbolism and situated their act in the realm of antagonism Slayer appropriated military and political symbolism of an equally popular context. 

I agree it hits closer to home, because it is a symbology still loaded in our time. And that presents a problematic and a lot of the considerations you guys are voicing here with your opinions. But at the end of the day, artwork, lyrics and overall admissions to the press in all the interviews over the years have pretty much defined that it is an act. 

So why do we get pissed about the imagery in this case? Maybe it is because it creates a contradiction in a lot of cases. How do I justify that I am into this band when they are very obviously promoting something I can't stand behind. I think it all comes form there. 

There is no historic value to these guitars whatsoever. They are now nothing but fan memorabilia. The guy that hangs that at home will most likely not do so for the Nazi emblems but for his admiration of the band and possibly his idealization of what a dude he never met was or wasn't. 

If we are only talking about the guitars in the context of the band, to me they are just another step in reinforcing that stage persona. The same as Kerry King fantasizes with being a convict (until he takes off his glasses and we all get to see those chipmunk eyes ) this other dude created a halo of mystery, being one of the least vocal people in the band and basically putting up this veil of WRONG (or don't touch me or I'll kill you) sort of personality.

I agree the symbology is loaded. But when the entire catalogue is written and framed in the same context it all makes sense. 

Now... so long it is contained within the act it's all good. And that's why I think the merchandising for example hints at the symbology but doesn't go as far as to reproduce it faithfully. I remember the Eagle Crest and it's common to see daggers and helmets in Slayer T-shirts but I think there was never a faithful reproduction of the Nazi symbology. All of that was mostly reduced to the stage and I would almost bet that it was specifically reduced to Jeff and his guitars. 

About the other debate. Why would people collect Nazi paraphernalia. Well, besides the fact that there are Neonazis and people who romanticize that period without a clue of what anything means, really... there are indeed people who collect it for its aesthetics, regardless of its meaning (which they are very well aware of). For others, holding an SS pin button is the same as holding a traditional Katana. It really goes in many directions. Since people are people... mostly nobody knows why anybody does this or that. They just do.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

The Oak isn't really Nazi-specific though; the US uses it as an indicator of rank as well..


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## Sermo Lupi (Jul 24, 2015)

asher said:


> Strawman. Please find a quote from posters in this thread saying Jeff was a skinhead Neo-Nazi.





> Nazis are Nazis. You don't see people with shaved heads and swastikas who were really just fans of Nazi septic innovations. Come on.



Nazis are Nazis, right? Doesn't take much reading between the lines to see what he meant.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Nazis are Nazis, right? Doesn't take much reading between the lines to see what he meant.



The context of that *in response to your own question* disproves that.


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## Mprinsje (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Nazis are Nazis, right? Doesn't take much reading between the lines to see what he meant.



Literally no-one has said that Jeff was a neo-nazi of any kind, just a dumbass for using nazi imagery on his guitars.

I mean, who the hell has the name of Reinhard Heydrich on a guitar? That man was one of the most anti-semitic guys in the whole regime, directly responsible for the Kristallnacht and the einsatzgruppen whose sole reason of creation was the murdering and locking away of jews.

He might've well just put Hitlers name on there. He may not be a nazi/racist or what have you but it's just incredibly stupid to do.


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## Rev2010 (Jul 24, 2015)

Wow, in one day a thread about Hanneman's guitars being auctioned has been turned into *four pages* of bickering about the Nazi symbolism on his guitars. The guy is dead, you can't educate him now on how it looks or might affect others feelings nor would he apparently have given a sh*t. 

The best question presented so far (by Konfyouzed) is how much of the proceeds are going to the Wounded Warrior Project?? As others have said, if it's something stupid like $200 per $12,000 guitar sale than yeah that is absurd. Honestly, in my opinion if it's anything less than a few grand I think it's a travesty to use that as a selling point. 12K is a lot and my opinion would vary if they hadn't set *every* guitar at a flat 12K price tag. 


Rev.


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## canuck brian (Jul 24, 2015)

Sermo Lupi said:


> That's actually what I'm arguing for. I'm saying that we shouldn't jump the gun and label a guy as being a Neo-Nazi just because he uses some of their symbolism on his guitars (which, by the way, he happens to play in the context of a politically charged metal band). And anyway, at what point did I say that the SS "weren't THAT bad"? Give me some credit here.
> 
> This is the problem with discussing anything involving the Nazi's. If you try to bring any subtlety to the discussion people act like you're a Nazi-sympathizer.



I'm going to argue for you to read people's posts. I can't find anywhere in the thread where someone called Jeff a neo-Nazi or a sympathizer. I think everyone has gone with the "the Nazi imagery is tasteless as hell" and i went with the notion that Jeff was just a dumbass for having this stuff all over his guitars. I miss Jeff like crazy and I had to go home from work the day he died. 

To everyone bringing up other massacres and whatnot...please stop justifying Jeff's actions by pointing out that other countries have had wars with hundreds of thousands of deaths. 

Anyways. I'm going to bow out of this. Its mindblowing that I have to repeatedly explain why having symbols of a regime that mutilated, tortured, experimented on, murdered, gassed, hanged, skinned, dismembered, eviscerated and entire culture of people and followed it up with more efficient ways to kill them by mass gassing and mass body disposal by tossing millions into incinerators....IS A BAD THING.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jul 24, 2015)

People who use Nazi logos in a band known for doing shock value stuff isn't doing it for the grey area. They're doing it because its evil, which is stupid. Using a symbol that holds deep meaning for shock value is making light of these symbols. 

Its just stupid and unnecessary.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jul 24, 2015)

> The context of that in response to your own question disproves that.



I'd appreciate if you'd elaborate on that, because as far as I can tell he meant exactly what he said: Nazis are Nazis, and their various symbols are exchangeable. Doesn't matter if we're talking about the SS insignia or the Swastika, they not only represent the same thing, they also represent Nazi ideals regardless of who adorns them. As he said, when you see someone wearing them, it's not likely that they're mere appreciators of Nazi contributions to septic systems. Seeing as Hanneman has Nazi symbolism on his guitars and he's already stated his opinion on said symbolism, where have I gone wrong in interpreting his post?

EDIT: you meant because his post came after mine, I see what you were saying now. Still doesn't really undo what he said, though. Seems a pretty clear message to me. 



canuck brian said:


> I'm going to argue for you to read people's posts. I can't find anywhere in the thread where someone called Jeff a neo-Nazi



See above. 



> or a sympathizer.



That bit was referring to me. I say something about how the SS insignia isn't directly connected to the concentration camps, and you twisted that into me saying "Yeah, they're the SS, but they weren't THAT bad." It's not even close to my meaning. 




> Its mindblowing that I have to repeatedly explain why having symbols of a regime that mutilated, tortured, experimented on, murdered, gassed, hanged, skinned, dismembered, eviscerated and entire culture of people and followed it up with more efficient ways to kill them by mass gassing and mass body disposal by tossing millions into incinerators....IS A BAD THING.



Again, I think we're talking around the point here. A few comments ago you wrote: 



> Breaking news - putting giant SS logos on your guitars and having giant Death's Head's graphics on your guitars is a hair short of having giant goddamn Nazi swastikas on your guitar. You might as well at that point. If the Death's Head SS graphic and the SS logos are acceptable, why wouldn't a fretboard full of swastikas and a graphic of the entrance to Auchwitz be acceptable?



What I'm saying is that the SS insignia is _not_ the same as a painting of the gates of Auschwitz. The insignia nonetheless represents a truly reprehensible group of people, but it isn't necessarily married to the concentration camps, let alone the death camps that everyone thinks of when the phrase "concentration camp" is mentioned. 

And even leaving that point aside, all I was arguing from the get-go is that Hanneman's use of these symbols wasn't necessarily indicative of bigotry. It's a barb used to get people worked up (and look, it worked), not necessarily a political statement. You seem to think he was a dumbass for using the symbols, and whilst I somewhat disagree, we both seem to be arguing that he's not some sort of Neo-Nazi just because he used them on his guitars. So I guess my question is: why bring all of that baggage into this discussion about these symbols somehow being representative of cultural genocide _in this specific context of use_? If you're able to separate his use of them from their historical meaning, I don't see why it's relevant to keep bringing up Nazi atrocities. 

Anyway, going to bow out of this discussion as well. Lots of people have made some great points (on both sides of the debate), but now we're talking in circles.


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## vilk (Jul 24, 2015)

I wasn't trying to justify anything, per se. I'm not really even on about guitars. I just thought it was interesting that everyone thinks there's some kind of line to be crossed when it comes to military symbolism. You kinda can't win, because war is inherently terrible. It's like, Nazis put Jews in gas chambers, so wearing an iron cross is bad. Centurains genocided Carthaginians, but if I put a Roman eagle in a wreath on my guitar you'd all think it was cool as ..... 
I'm not saying go a head and play nazi guitars because human history is riddled with power groups exterminating minority groups, I'm just saying that if you feel comfortable walking around in war related stuff, its basically arbitrary which military group you choose. We can all hate Nazis now because it wasn't that long ago and they were real, real bad. But in the future's history books it will just be another rising and falling of an empire and another extinguishing of people, right along side with Americans killing Natives, Ottomans killing Armenians, Khmers killing [the rest of Cambodia]... 

But I guarantee you 90% of people you ask would tell you that this 




Is just fine, even if you told them what it was. 

and this 



is unacceptable.


It's just that Nazis have more exposure. And they make such awesome badguys in Hollywood.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

That's an argument that people keep using with the flag of Treason in Defence of Slavery, and it's still wrong.

The Nazi state was explicitly about anti-Semitism, on top of a general militaristic nationalism easily directed towards conquering.

Was the United States formed explicitly around and in direct service to incredible bigotry? No.


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## Andromalia (Jul 24, 2015)

asher said:


> Was the United States formed explicitly around and in direct service to incredible bigotry? No.



Er, well, historically, yes, actually. Or maybe. It's been argued that the original english emigrants weren't so much religious exiles than religious extremists who more or less got the boot. But that's a bit off topic.


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## Humbuck (Jul 24, 2015)




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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> Er, well, historically, yes, actually. Or maybe. It's been argued that the original english emigrants weren't so much religious exiles than religious extremists who more or less got the boot. But that's a bit off topic.



The conglomeration of various colonies known as the United States, not the colonies themselves. But yes, OT.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

MatthewLeisher said:


> There are two kinds of people who would buy a guitar with Nazi symbols and names all over it.


You forgot: "People who really ****in' dig Slayer".



feraledge said:


> But, seriously, why be aloof about the implications of racist images and symbols and adverse to people reacting to them. I don't doubt that Slayer wanted to provoke, but if they are/were comfortable using those symbols, then that says something about them doesn't it?
> And this whole thing about collecting paraphernalia is something that makes no sense to me. I think that's garbage. But that aside, there's a difference between having a death's head whatever in your home and opting to mass produce it onto your signature guitar. That overrides any aspect of being "historic" and reduces it solely to the symbol that it is: an unquestionably racist one.


It implies that Jeff thought that symbol was cool as ****, is what it implies. 



Humbuck said:


> Jeff didn't care what you all think.


QFT. Please refer to Randy's avatar a couple of pages back.

This really goes in hand with the confederate flag thing, I don't get it. 
I think that swastikas are _cool as ****_, one of my first bosses was an Indian guy who moved to the states, and he had this massive flag with one of the OG pre-Nazi swastikas on it in his office. That flag was rad. It's a cool looking symbol.

But I can't enjoy the aesthetics of that one. Because that's a bad one.
No one would bat an eyelash if I stuck a Star of David, Pentagram, Winged Dagger, or All-Seeing Eye on my gear. Well, maybe not the Eye, but still. They're all just images that are neat looking...and unless I acted or behaved in a way to give somebody the impression that I was the type of person who these images represented, that's all they would be.

Fortunately I'm socially conscious enough to know that if I stuck a swastika somewhere that people would make negative associations, or generally just freak out. All of a sudden it's not "Oh, he likes the swastika," its "Oh, he likes the Nazis." But I still don't get it. The Nazis had style, they looked sharp, no harm in appreciating that. Doesn't mean pointlessly killing millions of people and committing an ideological genocide is equally fashionable. 

I know this may come off as a bit insensitive, but I'm a firm believer that one should be offended by people's *actions*, not their imagery or their words.


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## Mprinsje (Jul 24, 2015)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I know this may come off as a bit insensitive, but I'm a firm believer that one should be offended by people's *actions*, not their imagery or their words.



Putting names of nazi criminals, death's heads and ss runes all over your guitars is a stupid/offensive action.


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## zappatton2 (Jul 24, 2015)

vilk said:


> I don't condone Nazism (or that dude's lame guitars). Ethnically, I'm Jewish. I'm just saying it's 'daft' to think of an entire state structure from cafeteria lady to shoemaker to ss officer as a single entity of evil. Hitler was evil. The people who went about killing, (if it wasn't because they were forced to), were evil. But I'm just disagreeing with the notions that Nazis are "more evil" because they managed to kill more people. Or because of why they kill people, because that's basically "decided" by the top guys. The guys at the bottom who are killing people are doing it because the people who are their bosses told them that they have to. That's how the military works. Military imperialist movements all do the same thing: kill people because of something or other. Nazis killed people because of their religious beliefs, ethnicity... um, that's like the same reasons people kill each other _all the time_.
> 
> You guys are saying, "you can't draw a line between acceptable nazi stuff and unacceptable nazi stuff", I'm saying you can't draw a line between nazi mass murder and the rest of military mass murder that happens about any kind of bull.... It's just that Nazis are more easy to define, wear badguy colors, talk like they're always angry, and happened to kill the most people



This is the stuff that scares me; the banality of genuinely terrible things. It seems like lately the political divisity of North America has been driving people to such opposite ends, that I'm really finding myself questioning the progress we've been trying to make for decades. The fact is that the crime rates have been falling for decades, bu it seems like authority is getting more militaristic and aggressive. I'll leave it at that, just a drunken feeling I have about things.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

Mprinsje said:


> Putting names of nazi criminals, death's heads and ss runes all over your guitars is a stupid/offensive action.



It's stupid because it's an offensive action, and it's offensive because its related to the Nazi party so people automatically make that connection. 
If you had no idea what these symbols were, looked at that inlay job and thought "that looks awesome," then someone told you what it all meant, does it not look awesome now? 
Just cause Jeff and Lemmy like this stuff doesn't mean they support or condone the actions of WWII Germany. They might, I don't know, I don't really keep tabs on old school rockers. But all that this means, from this information, is that they thought the symbols were cool enough to use.

Although I have a gut feeling Jeff just used them because he knew people would make a big deal about it and that's kind of Slayer's thing.

In a similar vein, do you think I support the Nazi regime because I said I dug the way they dressed? Is that an offensive statement?


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## Chokey Chicken (Jul 24, 2015)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> It's stupid because it's an offensive action, and it's offensive because its related to the Nazi party so people automatically make that connection.
> If you had no idea what these symbols were, looked at that inlay job and thought "that looks awesome," then someone told you what it all meant, does it not look awesome now?
> Just cause Jeff and Lemmy like this stuff doesn't mean they support or condone the actions of WWII Germany. They might, I don't know, I don't really keep tabs on old school rockers. But all that this means, from this information, is that they thought the symbols were cool enough to use.
> 
> ...



The deaths head, swastika, ss, etc are all very boring symbols. Without the context of how evil they are, they are ultimately simple, goofy, boring, or any combination of these. 

Being evil is what makes them "cool." Seriously, look at that doofy looking skull and tell me it's legitimately cool.


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## UV7BK4LIFE (Jul 24, 2015)

Anyone who can afford one of these guitars can also afford a nice guided tour at camp Auschwitz, the Anne Frank house, and Normandy. I highly recommend it.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> The deaths head, swastika, ss, etc are all very boring symbols. Without the context of how evil they are, they are ultimately simple, goofy, boring, or any combination of these.
> 
> Being evil is what makes them "cool." Seriously, look at that doofy looking skull and tell me it's legitimately cool.



You try'na have an opinion fight m8?

To be real I agree aside from the swastika, which didn't even originate in Germany. I think the cockstock ESPs look ridiculous but people love those guitars. I think the color orange is boring and tasteless, but I feel like there are plenty of others that would disagree.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jul 24, 2015)

It's not really an opinion that the swastika is a simple design. (Obviously what is and isn't cool is though.) Worse is that there are variants that don't have ties to hate, but people gravitate towards the Nazi version because its evil. It evokes images of death, monsters, and evil. This is why people generally, and likely in Jeff's case, find it cool. 

I can't say for certain since opinions do vary, but I'm willing to bet had the Nazis never existed, you would never have given a second glance to the symbol.

I will agree that their uniforms were spiffy, but remove all hate symbols and they look just as neat. There's nothing inherantly wrong with the way they dressed outside of the symbols.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

Is it because it's evil, or is it because it's famous?
You may be right, because I might not have ever seen it, especially had my boss not had that flag up, as that's the only time in memory I can recall seeing the original 'version'. 

Food for thought.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Is it because it's evil, or is it because it's famous?



The one is a near-direct result of the other here. This isn't exactly a case of Engrish.


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## Church2224 (Jul 24, 2015)

Everyone is sitting here arguing about the symbols on the guitars...

I am just sitting here thinking it is awesome that if I had the cash I can play the guitars Jeff played, and he was one of my heroes when I started out playing. Also liking the fact that a portion of the proceeds go to the Wounded Warrior Projects.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

asher said:


> The one is a near-direct result of the other here. This isn't exactly a case of Engrish.



I don't think you're really thinking about what I'm saying.
If people aren't exposed to something, how are they going to 'choose' it, in any context? Everything about the Nazi's is SO massive in our culture because of what they did. If someone's going to put a swastika anywhere, 99% it's going to be a Nazi one because almost no one knows about the original. It's what people know.

But we're splitting hairs here and getting so far away from the topic of this thread it's ridiculous. 

Feel free to PM me to keep discussing it if you like though.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I don't think you're really thinking about what I'm saying.
> If people aren't exposed to something, how are they going to 'choose' it, in any context? Everything about the Nazi's is SO massive in our culture because of what they did. If someone's going to put a swastika anywhere, 99% it's going to be a Nazi one because almost no one knows about the original. It's what people know.
> 
> But we're splitting hairs here and getting so far away from the topic of this thread it's ridiculous.
> ...



Um.

You're making distinctions and then talking about different ones. What I quoted was *very explicitly* you talking about the Nazi icon. Why are you suddenly applying my response to something else?

The Nazi swastika is famous because of its evil. People using the symbol use it because of what it's associated with - even if they're just going for some loose version of "Nazi" (like Jeff probably was here?). It really doesn't get used in ANY OTHER CONTEXT.

I'm sure lots of people don't know the origins of the symbol. But that's irrelevant, because we're specifically talking about the modified and specific Nazi one.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

asher said:


> Um.
> 
> You're making distinctions and then talking about different ones. What I quoted was *very explicitly* you talking about the Nazi icon. Why are you suddenly applying my response to something else?
> 
> ...




Yes, OBVIOUSLY the Nazi swastika is famous because of it's relation to the Nazi party and all of the terrible things they did, *right.* No one is going to ever be even remotely thick enough to question that.

The question that I posed- that you quoted, was meant in a more broad sense. The message that that question was supposed to create was that when you only know of one type of something, you aren't going to 'choose' another type of that same something, in response to him saying that people only like/use the swastika because it's 'evil'. 

I didn't think it was that obfuscated.


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## asher (Jul 24, 2015)

I guess we have different definitions of clear writing 

That said, it is getting off topic. Cheers.

I too would be really curious to know the % of this going to charity.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jul 24, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> I will agree that their uniforms were spiffy,



They were pretty spiffy. Designed by Hugo Boss, who was a huge admirer of Hitler and a member of the Nazi party. 

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Edit - Jeff would approve of this thread. Causing friction and pissing people off from the grave. RIP


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## Rev2010 (Jul 24, 2015)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> They were pretty spiffy. Designed by Hugo Boss, who was a huge admirer of Hitler and a member of the Nazi party



Daaamn, didn't know that, wow! Learn something new all the time from my fellow SS.org'ers! 


Rev.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jul 24, 2015)

Rev2010 said:


> Daaamn, didn't know that, wow! Learn something new all the time from my fellow SS.org'ers!
> 
> 
> Rev.



Crazy .... huh?

Wanna read something really crazy, look up "IBM and the Holocaust".


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 24, 2015)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> Crazy .... huh?
> 
> Wanna read something really crazy, look up "IBM and the Holocaust".



I always knew IBM was evil


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## UV7BK4LIFE (Jul 25, 2015)

Funny, I used to drive in a Mercedes to IBM for work, wearing a Hugo Boss suit... So much for symbolism


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## Chokey Chicken (Jul 25, 2015)

The founder of adidas and the founder of puma were also part of the Nazi party. One was even captured by American soldiers apparently. 

A tad off topic though, I'll take my leave.


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## Kreml (Jul 25, 2015)

I know who is probably going to bid on them 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/282755-my-guitar-collection.html


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## SeditiousDissent (Jul 25, 2015)

Kreml said:


> I know who is probably going to bid on them
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/282755-my-guitar-collection.html



'd like a mofo.

I was going to mention "that one Russian dude who owns every Slayer guitar known to 'excist'."

Nicely done!


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## Chokey Chicken (Jul 26, 2015)

That dude has some cash to throw around. I certainly don't share the same taste in guitars, but .... it all if its not cool seeing somebody with such a collection.


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## Arsenal12 (Jul 29, 2015)

SeditiousDissent said:


> 'd like a mofo.
> 
> I was going to mention "that one Russian dude who owns every Slayer guitar known to 'excist'."
> 
> Nicely done!



Oh, you did not think it excist, bot oh it excist and I have TWO of them


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## SeditiousDissent (Jul 29, 2015)

Arsenal12 said:


> Oh, you did not think it excist, bot oh it excist and I have TWO of them



 I'm sure we all know about this guitar excist.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 1, 2015)

Bump. 

The guitarist of Broken Hope bought 4 of the guitars, and plans on using only them to record their next album.


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## asher (Dec 1, 2015)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Bump.
> 
> The guitarist of Broken Hope bought 4 of the guitars, and plans on using only them to record their next album.



That's pretty cool, actually.

Also omg that avatar  (yes I know what it's from, it's just somehow almost funnier out of context)


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## ArtDecade (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm curious... do you guys feel the same way about Hetfield's Iron Cross guitar?


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## Chemical-Pony (Dec 1, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> I'm curious... do you guys feel the same way about Hetfield's Iron Cross guitar?



The Iron Cross is not a Nazi symbol. It was in common use in Germany way before the Nazis turned up. It originates from the Teutonic Knights in the 14th century and is still used in Germany today.

It takes a special kind of arsehole to decorate your guitar with Nazi insignia. You don't even have the excuse of it being memorabilia of "historical interest".


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 1, 2015)

I'm also doubting that James does it for Nazi-related reasons. I'm pretty sure he does it because he's an avid hot rod/car modding junkie. 

I mean, there's a ....ing racing stripe on the instrument. Do you think the guitar's supposed to represent the Nazi-mobile or something?


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 1, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> I'm curious... do you guys feel the same way about Hetfield's Iron Cross guitar?



Personally...no. It's a part of history, bad things happened, do we stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it didn't happen....just sweep it under the carpet??? I'm having a guitar built at the minute the main theme of which is the persecution of witches in medieval Europe. Did thousands of innocent people die......hell yeah but for some strange reason and because it happened in medieval times that concept will be considered 'cool' yet people died due to an insane paranoia with no foundation in actual fact. Where do you draw the line?


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## ArtDecade (Dec 2, 2015)

I know that the Iron Cross is not a Nazi symbol. It goes waaaaaay father back than even Germany's existence. That said, I'm just curious because that symbol along with the Swastika were borrowed and abused by the Nazis. Strange that one can recover from a bad spell and the other probably never will.


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## Zalbu (Dec 2, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> I'm curious... do you guys feel the same way about Hetfield's Iron Cross guitar?


Or Dimebags confederate flag guitars? Genuinely curious, I'm not American and not exactly the biggest Dimebag fan out there so I have no idea about what his political views are like, but it sure doesn't feel right to see a dude from Butt...., Texas play a confederate flag guitar


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## asher (Dec 2, 2015)

I'd imagine he saw it as a Southern pride symbol only. There ARE good meaning people who do, or did until recently at least, view it that way. I couldn't tell you how he'd respond to the (correct) argument against it now...


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 2, 2015)

I also believe that Phil Anselmo wants nothing to do with the confederate flag anymore. 

I'd imagine Dimebag would have been the same way. He didn't seem to be racist or bigoted... Or he was just really, really quiet about it.


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## asher (Dec 2, 2015)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I also believe that Phil Anselmo wants nothing to do with the confederate flag anymore.
> 
> I'd imagine Dimebag would have been the same way. He didn't seem to be racist or bigoted... Or he was just really, really quiet about it.



Like, he seemed way too genuinely nice that I think there's a decent chance he would have given it up.

Good on Phil.


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## Andromalia (Dec 2, 2015)

IbanezDaemon said:


> Personally...no. It's a part of history, bad things happened, do we stick our fingers in our ears and pretend it didn't happen....just sweep it under the carpet??? I'm having a guitar built at the minute the main theme of which is the persecution of witches in medieval Europe. Did thousands of innocent people die......hell yeah but for some strange reason and because it happened in medieval times that concept will be considered 'cool' yet people died due to an insane paranoia with no foundation in actual fact. Where do you draw the line?



It's not a matter of drawing a line, you just didn't have the guts to ask for a My Little Pony guitar from Dylan.


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## pahulkster (Dec 3, 2015)

The picture of the Broken Hope guy with Jeff's guitars is in the current Guitar World. Thought it was funny to see after reading this thread yesterday. I think he cut a deal with Jeff's widow, but probably still paid a fortune.


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## Blytheryn (Dec 3, 2015)

Dude, he owns Jeff's Jackson. That is so awesome it's just unheard of.


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## pahulkster (Dec 3, 2015)

He also has at least one of his amps.


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## Mangle (Dec 3, 2015)

Wonder if dude with the massive thrash axe collection got any of them? Y'know the russian guy that posted that insane thread with his unbelievable avalanche of everyone's guitars!


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 3, 2015)

asher said:


> I'd imagine he saw it as a Southern pride symbol only. There ARE good meaning people who do, or did until recently at least, view it that way. I couldn't tell you how he'd respond to the (correct) argument against it now...



There are BLACK PEOPLE who proudly wave that flag for the very same reason. Southern pride. In early 2000 it was a pretty big thing among rappers from Georgia...

EDIT: http://www.complex.com/style/2015/07/rappers-endorsing-confederate-flag/

Whenever I say this everyone just ignores it and keeps going with their "It's racist and I don't like it" jibba jabba, but at the end of the day, the flag is the same as any other object. Not everyone views it the same way. 

And quite frankly I STILL think the whole thing is stupid. The presence or lack thereof of a flag has nothing to do with whether or not people will be racist. I kind of liked that the racists were marking themselves so I could avoid them. It's kind of easy to tell who rocks it for hatred and who rocks it for heritage. 

And we're from the south where we've been told sh!t like: "Honey, don't be surprised if you hear the word n!gger in here... That's a household word in these parts..." DIRECT QUOTE.


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## rikwebb (Dec 4, 2015)

Kreml said:


> I know who is probably going to bid on them
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/standard-guitars/282755-my-guitar-collection.html



.... i always wanted one of those first Black and Red ESP V'S!


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## Bucks (Dec 5, 2015)

Clearly Jeff was really into the ideology and was hiding behind the old.. "Oh i just like to collect this stuff".

Definitely a nazi sympathizer.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 5, 2015)

Bucks said:


> Clearly Jeff was really into the ideology and was hiding behind the old.. "Oh i just like to collect this stuff".
> 
> Definitely a nazi sympathizer.



Slow down... Having a morbid fascination with something does not mean that you are a sympathizer. Cannibal Corpse has a morbid fascination with killing, maiming, necrophilia, etc that is glorified in their lyrics and album covers. It doesn't extend to them being serial killers - at least there is no actual evidence to make such a claim.


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## ZeroTolerance94 (Dec 5, 2015)

asher said:


> I'd imagine he saw it as a Southern pride symbol only. There ARE good meaning people who do, or did until recently at least, view it that way. I couldn't tell you how he'd respond to the (correct) argument against it now...



As somebody who has one hanging on his wall in his bedroom, and a couple shirts with the flag on it... When I think about _why_ I like it, the only analogy I can think of in a way to explain it is:

A lot of people *really* into metal music wear band shirts, a lot of the time with vulgar pictures or art on them. And they wear them because they want people in public to know they're into metal. They're damned proud of it. That's the image it gives off.

When I wear a shirt with a confederate flag on it, it's giving off the image in my head that "Hey, I'm a southern born, southern bred, country boy. And damned proud of it." *Not* the image of "I'm a racist."

I'd sure hope so anyways. That's how I think of it when it comes to "southern pride."

I'd imagine Dime probably thought similar, also probably not consciously. The rebel flag is a flag of southern folk, and always will be. For me anyways. 

Also, wow this thread went off-topic. And I kind of feel bad having contributed to that. Ah well.


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## Zalbu (Dec 16, 2015)

Never heard of this guy or Broken Hope before but I already have a ton of respect for him after seeing this video


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## thrsher (Dec 16, 2015)

jeremy is the man and broken hope is awesome. dude also donated a bunch of his land to animal rescue! Broken Hope's Jeremy Wagner Donates Farm to Animal Rescue


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## Esp Griffyn (Dec 16, 2015)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Bump.
> 
> The guitarist of Broken Hope bought 4 of the guitars, and plans on using only them to record their next album.



That is really cool actually. The guitars have transcended their existence as mere instruments and now become something closer to relics, their power channeled into new music.

Also, I don't remember being so quick to call Jeff a nazi when he was alive. Tom Araya is a church-going Christian but sings about satan - so he must be a satanist by the "Jeff is a nazi" logic, right?


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## Blytheryn (Dec 16, 2015)

As much as I would love to have Jeff's punk rock Jackson in my living room, I'm sure Jeremy is putting it to better use. I'd play the thing for sure though, wouldn't have it in glass case. That guitar is one of my fav guitars in the whole world. It's great that we can hear it on albums in the future.


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## mikernaut (Dec 16, 2015)

video was neat but it needed a counter for each time he said "Jeff Hanneman"


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## Chemical-Pony (Dec 16, 2015)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Also, I don't remember being so quick to call Jeff a nazi when he was alive. Tom Araya is a church-going Christian but sings about satan - so he must be a satanist by the "Jeff is a nazi" logic, right?



But Tom Araya doesn't decorate his guitar with satanic symbols does he? Also nonsense about satan can safely be dismissed as harmless fantasy as opposed to real events within living memory where millions of people were actually murdered. And to use that as a decoration? That's sick. I don't know why you'd want to defend that.


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## Esp Griffyn (Dec 17, 2015)

Chemical-Pony said:


> But Tom Araya doesn't decorate his guitar with satanic symbols does he? Also nonsense about satan can safely be dismissed as harmless fantasy as opposed to real events within living memory where millions of people were actually murdered. And to use that as a decoration? That's sick. I don't know why you'd want to defend that.



Except Tom does though, your ridiculous argument goes up in smoke.







I defend Jeff because I'm not a vacuous moron and I'm capable of free, evaluative and critical thinking. I don't instantly equate an interest in war memorabilia as an individual automatically being a nazi sympathiser or a fascist. As I say, no one seemed to challenge Jeff over it when he is alive, but suddenly they're brave enough to do it now he is dead - it just seems sad and cowardly to me. No doubt you'll be writing to Lemmy Kilmister soon to express your disgust about his war memorabilia collection? Please do it now, while he is still alive and let me know how you get on.

You come across as one of these loony left, Corbynista types. Stop trying to be so offended.


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## Chemical-Pony (Dec 17, 2015)

.


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## ArtDecade (Dec 17, 2015)

Chemical-Pony said:


> .



That's probably the smartest thing you've said in this thread.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Dec 17, 2015)

Bucks said:


> Clearly Jeff was really into the ideology and was hiding behind the old.. "Oh i just like to collect this stuff".
> 
> Definitely a nazi sympathizer.



What a giant pile of bull..... Clearly.


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