# Secret polyrhythms!?!?



## Naren (Feb 1, 2009)

About 4 months ago, my band got a new drummer (because our old drummer quit at the end of September) and he's already learned all of our songs (he can learn 5-6 songs a week). The dude is a progressive death metal maniac, seemingly influenced most by Opeth's Martin Lopez and Nile's George Kolias (as well as by bands like Meshuggah, Cryptopsy, Into Eternity, and so on). Well, he loves odd time signatures and such. And I've been writing some songs with combinations of weird time signatures and crazy tempo changes lately, which he is really into.

After practice on Saturday, we were talking about changes to songs and he says, "I need to add some more polyrhythms into songs." And I say, "More?" 
"Yeah."
"You're saying there are polyrhythms in one of our songs."
"Yeah, that 3/4 part in the middle of Demigod. I'm playing it in 4/4."

So, it seems it was going like this:
Guitars / bass:...... 123123123123123123123123123123123123123123123123
drums(no cymbal):. 123412341234123412341234123412341234123412341234
cymbal:................ x...x...x....x...x...x....x...x....x...x....x...x...x....x...x...x...

I thought this was interesting because we played the song twice at practice and I didn't even notice the drums weren't in 3/4 because he was playing the crash cymbal on the 1 of 3/4 the whole time.

He said he was planning on doing something similar with a 9/8 part of another song.

Does anyone else have their drummers secretly throwing polyrhythms in your songs?!


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## Luan (Feb 2, 2009)

I don't think that it is something that happens normally, but it is nice that your drummer tries it, just try that whatever he plays sounds good and don't use "polyrhythms" just because it makes you stand cool haha


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 2, 2009)

No, i dont have a drummer


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## MerlinTKD (Feb 2, 2009)

In my experience, no, this doesn't often happen. Kudos to your drummer for pushing the envelope! And serious kudos to you guys for keeping it together... the bands I've been with, if I even ty to put the snare anywhere but 2 and 4, they fall apart like bad pastry! 

Of course, the stuff you're doing is more intricate than the classic rock/americana that I end up doing... but excellent that you guys are not just playing, you're making music!


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## 7deadlysins666 (Feb 2, 2009)

Holy shit....a drummer that knows what polyrhythms are and understands odd time signatures? Where can I find one of those?!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 2, 2009)

7deadlysins666 said:


> Holy shit....a drummer that knows what polyrhythms are and understands odd time signatures? Where can I find one of those?!



Definately not in Danville, VA.


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## stuh84 (Feb 2, 2009)

Our drummer is the tits, adds so much to the songs, I wouldn't be surprised if he's throwing some crazy stuff in there.

It's our keyboardist though that comes up with the most insane stuff, he's a classically trained string player, and taught himself keys/piano, and he can play near enough anything. He regularly goes off into whole tone sections (which is bringing some great stuff out of me), wanting to do odd time sigs in triplet feel or swing feel, and generally wanting to make us more progressive than we could ever imagine. Just how we like it 

Just as we were leaving rehearsal today, he was going on about 4/3 time sigs (4 minim triplets in a bar, with the drums being in a way thats creating the triplet feel), we may end up having that in somewhere....


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## Naren (Feb 2, 2009)

Luan said:


> I don't think that it is something that happens normally, but it is nice that your drummer tries it, just try that whatever he plays sounds good and don't use "polyrhythms" just because it makes you stand cool haha



Well, obviously, yeah. I was actually saying, "Nah, we probably shouldn't add polyrhythms to that song." And he was like, "I already did." and I was like "What?!"

It sounds good. In fact, I don't think anyone other than musicians listening to it would even notice that it was a polyrhythm. In fact, I didn't even notice it wasn't in 3/4 until he told me. And neither did the other guitarist or the bass player in my band. For me, in that part of the song, I use the crash cymbol as a reference for "1," and he kept the crash cymbol at the same place it would be in 3/4 with the bass drum, snare, hi hat, toms, and other cymbols in 4/4.

It definitely fits. If he hadn't told me at all, it probably would have taken me a month or so to notice it. 



7deadlysins666 said:


> Holy shit....a drummer that knows what polyrhythms are and understands odd time signatures? Where can I find one of those?!



 From your other thread, I assumed he drummer understood odd time signatures.

Actually, this drummer is the best possible drummer we could ask for. We have this new 8 and a half minute long song that I wrote with tempos in 120bpm, 140bpm, 150bpm, 160bpm, 170bpm, and 180bpm and uses 5/8, 9/8, 4/4, 6/4, and 3/4 (and, yes, the changes sound very natural) - and from a guitarist perspective, it goes through 4 different keys. We haven't practiced it together yet, but he's been saying that he wants to play it every week since I sent him the MP3. We'll start working on it next week. 



stuh84 said:


> Our drummer is the tits, adds so much to the songs, I wouldn't be surprised if he's throwing some crazy stuff in there.
> 
> It's our keyboardist though that comes up with the most insane stuff, he's a classically trained string player, and taught himself keys/piano, and he can play near enough anything. He regularly goes off into whole tone sections (which is bringing some great stuff out of me), wanting to do odd time sigs in triplet feel or swing feel, and generally wanting to make us more progressive than we could ever imagine. Just how we like it
> 
> Just as we were leaving rehearsal today, he was going on about 4/3 time sigs (4 minim triplets in a bar, with the drums being in a way thats creating the triplet feel), we may end up having that in somewhere....



 Sweet. One of my personal requirements for band members is that they're willing to try different things (and that they're willing to strive to improve themselves, as I am doing myself).

Looks like you guys have yourself a perfect keyboard player for your style.


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## Regor (Feb 2, 2009)

So is that what is meant by polyrhythms? 

I sometimes think I'm hindered by not having ever taken music theory classes, in regards to guitar. Cuz I don't understand that kind of stuff, because its all a matter of reference point IMO.

If you're playing in 3/4, after 2 measures you're at 6/8, and then 9/12, then 12/16...
He'd be at 4/4, 8/8 and then 12/12...

So from your reference point, you've reached 12 notes after 4 'measures' of music, whereas he's reached 12 notes after 3 measures... But you're still getting the same amount of notes in.... I've always thought polyrhythms were multiple time signature changes during a song, like "Metropolis" or "Dance of Eternity".

I've done 4/4 over a 6/8 drum beat... so I guess that's a polyrhythm too?


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## Naren (Feb 2, 2009)

Regor said:


> So is that what is meant by polyrhythms?
> 
> I sometimes think I'm hindered by not having ever taken music theory classes, in regards to guitar. Cuz I don't understand that kind of stuff, because its all a matter of reference point IMO.
> 
> ...



Well, everyone except the drummer is in 3/4. We're doing 3/4 16 times and the drummer is doing 4/4 12 times, which comes out to the same length.

You're a little confused about how time signatures work. The number on the right is the basis for what note gets 1 beat. In 4/4 the quarter note gets one beat and there are 4 of them in a measure. In 4/8, the eighth note gets one beat and there are 4 of them in a measure. In 3/4, the quarter note gets one beat and there are 3 of them in a measure. In 8/8, the eighth note gets the beat and there are 8 of them in a measure.

When you said "He'd be at 4/4, 8/8 and then 12/12..." what you really meant was "He'd be at 4/4, 8/4, and 12/4." But that would not be true, since each one of his drum patterns is 4/4 in length, not 12/4 in length. That would just be 3 drum patterns of a 4/4 length.



Regor said:


> So from your reference point, you've reached 12 notes after 4 'measures' of music, whereas he's reached 12 notes after 3 measures... But you're still getting the same amount of notes in.... I've always thought polyrhythms were multiple time signature changes during a song, like "Metropolis" or "Dance of Eternity".



Those would just be multiple time signature changes. There is no specific musical term for that (as far as I know).

In polyrhythms, as long as the total amount of beats meets up at the end (or at the switch), you're okay. Meshuggah is known for doing insane combinations of stuff like 33/16 and 8/4, which might not meet up, so they add another time signature to make up for the missing space.



Regor said:


> I've done 4/4 over a 6/8 drum beat... so I guess that's a polyrhythm too?



Yep.

A polyrhythm is when different instruments are playing at the same time in _different_ time signatures. For example, the drums in 4/4 and the guitars in 7/4 and a keyboard in 3/4 would be a polyrhythm.


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## Regor (Feb 2, 2009)

Yeah, I understand how time sigs work... I just 'miswrote' what I was trying to say.


Ok then, I guess I misunderstood the definition of polyrhythms. Interesting, but not all that appealing to me personally.  I'd rather write stuff where its hard to find the 'one beat' of a rhythm.... like I've got a song that I'm working on that's a 9/8 riff, but I play it like a riff of 3 and a riff of 6, three times, and then a riff that has 8 notes...

so its 9/8, 9/8, 9/8, 8/8 then the riff repeats, and then has a bridging riff that is 6/4 (or maybe its 6/8? )


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 2, 2009)

Naren said:


> Those would just be multiple time signature changes. There is no specific musical term for that (as far as I know).


Mixed meter is the term.

A year ago, my choir did three pieces that were heavily syncopated and polyrhythmic. One changed meter like crazy and had different rhythms between parts, one had an off-beat fugue, and the other was one of those faux-African pieces that school choral directors love. We couldn't get the last one down, but we all ended on the beat, so eh.


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## Naren (Feb 2, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> Mixed meter is the term.
> 
> A year ago, my choir did three pieces that were heavily syncopated and polyrhythmic. One changed meter like crazy and had different rhythms between parts, one had an off-beat fugue, and the other was one of those faux-African pieces that school choral directors love. We couldn't get the last one down, but we all ended on the beat, so eh.



Ahhhhhhh, I had forgot about that. The last time I had taken music theory classes in college was about 5 years ago... but I should have remembered that term.

Some of my songs are characterized by very drastic key, time signature, and tempo changes, sometimes switch all 3 at the same time (for example, going from 150bpm in 9/8 in B diminished to 170bpm in 4/4 in C# natural minor). On the other hand, a lot of my songs are very simplistic time signature and key-wise, but go through tempo changes like crazy.

Those African pieces are, by far, the hardest because of how rhythmically complicated they are... Sometimes it almost seems that the rhythms don't even really correspond to each other...


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 2, 2009)

Hindustani music is pretty cool. Watching the players all soloing simultaneously, bending time and meter to the point where it sounds like no-one's together, then coming back perfectly on the downbeat... it's surreal. Definitely the most intense type of performance I've experienced. Tabla players and latin jazz percussionists have to be so damn clever.


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## Luan (Feb 2, 2009)

A common polyrhythm I love, is to play 3/4 over 6/8, that have been used a lot by ex opeth drummer Martin Lopez.


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## stuh84 (Feb 2, 2009)

3/4 over 6/8?

Surely that just makes it one or the other, given they are the same length?


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## Luan (Feb 2, 2009)

Not really, yes I meant that both have the same duration for the 8th note, but the tempo is different for both at the same time, you can write 3 quarter notes on the 6/8 for what I meant, but that is the same than writing 3/4, but the polyrhythm occurs when you play the 3/4 over other things (guitars, bass, other instruments of the drums) in 6/8, did I explained it correctly?


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## stuh84 (Feb 2, 2009)

Not in the slightest to be honest.

The tempo is exact same for both, if theres a tempo change in one its not a polyrhythm at all.

Fact is, I do a lot of stuff transitioning between the feels of 3/4 and 6/8, and even when every other instrument changes, and only the drums change to the feel of 6/8 from 3/4, it doesn't sound like a polyrhythm, it just sounds like 6/8.


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## Luan (Feb 2, 2009)

Polyrhythms are about different meters at the same time, something against something.
6/8 and 3/4 are not the same, they are different meters that mean different things, if you have one against other, it's polyrhythm. simply as that. it's not the same where the pulse is at 3/4 than 6/8. The same for the subdivision.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 2, 2009)

The division of three is "*one*-and *two*-and *three*-and", three groups of two. Six is "*one*-two-three *four*-five-six", two groups of three. If you only play the traditionally emphasized beats of each meter, it sounds like two against three. 

I've been led to believe that polymeters are multiple meters occupying the same amount of time, and emphasizing different beats (say clapping hands every three beats and every five beats) is just syncopation.


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## stuh84 (Feb 3, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> The division of three is "*one*-and *two*-and *three*-and", three groups of two. Six is "*one*-two-three *four*-five-six", two groups of three. If you only play the traditionally emphasized beats of each meter, it sounds like two against three.
> 
> I've been led to believe that polymeters are multiple meters occupying the same amount of time, and emphasizing different beats (say clapping hands every three beats and every five beats) is just syncopation.



This is what I'm getting at, 4/4 over 3/4, and 7/8 over 6/8, they sound like polymeters, 3/4 over 6/8 just sounds like syncopation as you put it.

3/4 over 6/8 and vice versa may technically be polymeters but I just personally don't see the point in classing it as such, as then you could start just accenting a random beat in each bar, and start saying theres 9/16 and 7/16 going over 4/4, when its basically just syncopation.


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## Luan (Feb 3, 2009)

Well, since playing 3/4 over 6/8 isn't random, with what you've said, it's polyrhythm (do not get confused with polymeter, that is another thing).


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## TomAwesome (Feb 3, 2009)

If the cymbals are keeping a straight 3/4 along with everyone else, isn't he really just doing kind of a syncopated thing with the rest of his kit?


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## Naren (Feb 3, 2009)

TomAwesome said:


> If the cymbals are keeping a straight 3/4 along with everyone else, isn't he really just doing kind of a syncopated thing with the rest of his kit?



No. In syncopation, the beat consistantly falls on a beat that normally isn't stressed. Since the bass drum, snare, toms, ride cymbol, hi hat, and splash symbol are in 4/4 and the crash cymbol is in 3/4, the crash symbol will not consistantly fall on the same beat.

drums: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
cymbol:x......x......x.......x......x.......x

So, the first cymbol falls on 1, then it falls on 4, then it falls on 3, then it falls on 2, and then it falls on 1, and then it falls on 4.

That is not syncopation. That is polyrhythm. Guitars, bass, and the crash cymbol in 3/4 and the rest of the drum set in 4/4.

Meshuggah does something similar where the drums are in 4/4, but Tomas Haake is playing a part of his set according to the guitar riffs which are in some crazy time signature like 21/8.


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## TomAwesome (Feb 3, 2009)

Hmm. Yeah, I guess you're right. I think I was confusing syncopation with something else.


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## stuh84 (Feb 3, 2009)

Luan said:


> Well, since playing 3/4 over 6/8 isn't random, with what you've said, it's polyrhythm (do not get confused with polymeter, that is another thing).



Given a polyrhythm is playing multiple notes in the space of where another lot should go (say triplets, quintuplets) while something else plays the normal note, say, the snare plays in septuplets while the rest of the kit is playing standard notes. 

I think you need to check your definitions first.

I also didn't say it HAD to be random to be syncopation, the entire point was because the lengths of the bars are the same, saying something is in 9/16 and 7/16 over 4/4 when the 1st semiquaver is accented, then the 10th one is, is the same as saying if the 1, 3 and 5th quaver are accented in a 6/8 bar by another instrument, then its a polymeter.



Naren said:


> No. In syncopation, the beat consistantly falls on a beat that normally isn't stressed.



Sorry to half hijack this, but this goes for what I'm saying to Luan, the accents will fall in the same place each time, so while it could be classed as a polymeter, it actually fits more with syncopation.


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## Luan (Feb 4, 2009)

I've learned to stop discussing things that go nowhere, I don't want to check definitions that I learnt with a great professor anyways.


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## stuh84 (Feb 4, 2009)

All I'll say is meters have always meant time signatures, and rhythms always mean subdivisions of notes. Therefore polyrhythms are multiple subdivisions of notes at the same time, and polymeters are multiple time signatures at the same time.

Regardless of what the great professor said, meters ARE time signatures, and rhythms ARE subdivions of notes.


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## Luan (Feb 4, 2009)

Put the word you want on it, it doesn't change the music, this discussion is going nowhere.


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## JBroll (Feb 5, 2009)

Luan, the discussion isn't on a bad topic at all - if you don't like it, leave, but it's not like you haven't gotten anything wrong before and there are far more productive things to be said than 'this discussion is going nowhere'. Don't be that guy...

Something to keep in mind with polyrhythms is that any combination of meters played simultaneously (with constant meter and common tempo, obviously) will eventually 'restart' and have a shared first beat. It may take one meter (if all instruments are playing the same thing), or it may take a lot of them, but as long as you have a fixed, common tempo and everyone playing in a fixed meter you'll eventually go back to where you started.

Jeff


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## Luan (Feb 5, 2009)

What I meant is that nothing changes at all if you call "polyrhythm" or "polymeter" to the resource I mentioned, nothing in the music or how it sounds changes at all, it's useless to discuss it.


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## JBroll (Feb 5, 2009)

The music may not change, but our understanding increases *greatly*. Discussing what words mean won't change classic novels, but if we don't discuss the words we can't read them, and if we get things mixed up there's no way to have a coherent discussion. (Unless I'm horribly misunderstanding what you're saying is useless to discuss - which is likely, but still resulting in more work than you're saying it's worth...)

Coming into a discussion and saying that something is useless to discuss is *far* more useless than the contents of any such thread.

Jeff


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 5, 2009)

My twentieth century compositional book has nothing on polymeter/polyrhythm, except for a brief paragraph discussing exactly what we have here: 3 and 6 combined into one pattern. Here's what it says: "Momentarily displaced accents producing rhythmic units of unequal duration have been illustrated in the previous example (Roy Harris Symphony 3). When a pattern of unequal durations within a measure is used consistently, an asymmetric meter results."

I don't like that definition, personally.


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## JBroll (Feb 5, 2009)

I prefer to think of it in mathematical terms, where you have several cycles going at once and you can describe the entire resulting 'supercycle' in terms of one bigger monstrosity.

Jeff


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## robotsatemygma (Feb 5, 2009)

Yea me and my band do polyrhythms and poly meters a lot. There fun to play and pull off. 

The best example is where I play a 3/4 melody and he goes off in 2 completely different time sigs that starts off in 3/4 for one measure then goes into 4/4 then 5/4 for the other 2 measures bringing it together on the last 2 beats of the 5/4, which happens to be the end of the section.


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## Naren (Feb 5, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> My twentieth century compositional book has nothing on polymeter/polyrhythm, except for a brief paragraph discussing exactly what we have here: 3 and 6 combined into one pattern. Here's what it says: "Momentarily displaced accents producing rhythmic units of unequal duration have been illustrated in the previous example (Roy Harris Symphony 3). When a pattern of unequal durations within a measure is used consistently, an asymmetric meter results."
> 
> I don't like that definition, personally.



I remember it said in my music theory book I used in college that 3/4 over 4/4 is one of the most common polyrhythms used.

Polymeter and polyrhythm are different, but they are similar... Jazz uses polymeter quite a bit. I can't think of any examples of polyrhythm in jazz, though... But then again, I just might not have noticed them before.


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## TonalArchitect (Feb 5, 2009)

When I think of Polyrhythm, I think of two or more independent layers of rhythms in the context of the subdivision which share a time signature, although I'm not suggesting that as a requirement. 

For instance, if I tap out an even four pulses with my left hand and an even five with my right (that was _fun _to learn), and they both consumed the same time span, then I would call that a polyrhythm. 

If I tapped out pulses of even duration between both hands (that is, both hands tap out quarter notes without that irrational rhythm nonsense), but I accented the first of every four notes with the left hand and the first of every five notes with the right, I would consider that a polymeter. 

It gets worse when you consider that meter accounts for the regular segmentation into which a time signature's pulses are grouped and not necessarily the time signature itself, although I think meter has come to mean time signature. 

I loathe that definition (use long ago in the old country), since odd meters, like everyone's friend 11/8, don't fit that meaning as well as 4/4 and 3/4 do duple and triple meters respectively. And then there's the compound duple shenanigans, like 6/8. 

The awful thing, though, is that by the definition of a recurring group of regular pulses, multiple meters can create a polyrhythm. 

It happens all the time in African music where they'll have a divisive three and a divisive two going on at the same time. (Often expressed in Western notation as dotted quarter notes and not-dotted quarter notes going on simultaneously in a bar of 12/8). Although, of course, they have loads of additive rhythms in there too. 

The thing is, in my opinion, it's a question of scale, and it's not as clear cut as perhaps we'd like. 

Take the obvious example of Meshuggah. I prefer to call their art polymetric, since I think of the time signatures themselves as moving against each other rather than the subdivisions. It starts on the same beat and then goes 'off' and then returns. 

But you could say the same thing about 2:3. They start at the same time, go off, and then return. The pattern is smaller. 

You could argue that they share a common time signature, but you could argue the same thing with Meshuggah. It fits as 4/4, but with ungodly syncopation. 

And what about phrasing with accents? 

Indian drummers-- among their other baffling rhythmic tomfoolery-- group subdivisions in sections that don't align right away with the beats of the tala, which can be convoluted enough. 

So play even triplets, but accent the first of every four notes. 

Now what the heck is that? It implies a polyrhythm... or does it give a polymeter? Is it truly either, or do you need another voice playing the contrasting rhythm? 

So from my perspective it's relative and a pretty grey continuum. I personally look at, say, Meshuggah's work as polymetric; I look at smaller scale layers of additive and divisive rhythm as polyrhythmic; and I don't know what to call Indian music.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 5, 2009)

Man, I have to read up on Tala. I'm going to a sitar concert on Saturday, which should be interesting, as there's going to be a carnatic drummer along with tabla. I've gotten pretty good at counting, but then they do those half measures and double measures, and I'm lost until they do something obvious.


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## TimothyLeary (Feb 5, 2009)

i'm curious about this subject, but I find it very difficult to understand. 

Anyone has a book or something that brought the "light" to understand the tempos? including polyrhytms, counting, etc?

I've order the dvd gateway to rhythmn of john mclaughlin but I'm still waiting that arrives.


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## TonalArchitect (Feb 6, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> Man, I have to read up on Tala. I'm going to a sitar concert on Saturday, which should be interesting, as there's going to be a carnatic drummer along with tabla. I've gotten pretty good at counting, but then they do those half measures and double measures, and I'm lost until they do something obvious.



:jealousy:

The odds of such a concert being held here are about 3^-567. 



Hindustani tala confuse me, since they're more 'filled out' than the Carnatic ones. Probably because they're more like a traditional rhythm than a time signature, which Carnatic tala seem to be. 

I have two CD's of Indian music, one Hindustani and the other Carnatic, and I'll be damned if I can identify one tala in any of it. 

Anyway, enjoy the concert, man. 



TimothyLeary said:


> i'm curious about this subject, but I find it very difficult to understand.
> 
> Anyone has a book or something that brought the "light" to understand the tempos? including polyrhytms, counting, etc?
> 
> I've order the dvd gateway to rhythmn of john mclaughlin but I'm still waiting that arrives.



Yes. Ancient Traditions -- Future Possibilities: Rhythmic Training Through the Traditions of Africa, Bali, and India

I own this and would highly recommend it. It goes into African; Balinese; and Northern and Southern Indian rhythmic traditions. 

If you have a more specific question, we here could try to answer it.

For counting, I strongly recommend the Carnatic system of counting, which allows one to count triplets, sixteenth notes, quintuplets, sextuplets (just triplets twice), septuplets, thirtysecond notes (sixteenths twice), and... um non-tuplets? (Nine notes per beat). They're also used to count accent patterns with that many notes, like when you're playing even sixteenths, but are accenting it in groups of sevens. 

I want to call this Solkattu, but that might be the drumming language which corresponds to the sounds of the mridangam.


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## JakeRI (Feb 6, 2009)

i secretly make my drum play poly's not vice versa.

i once got one to play a 4/4 poly over 5/4 without even realizing it


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## shredthelight91 (Feb 6, 2009)

dude you have an awesome drummer by the sounds of it. Keep him around for a while


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## TimothyLeary (Feb 6, 2009)

TonalArchitect said:


> :jealousy:
> 
> Yes. Ancient Traditions -- Future Possibilities: Rhythmic Training Through the Traditions of Africa, Bali, and India
> 
> ...



Thanks man. Funny that the Dvd I was talking yesterday, arrived today, it's about konokol, I think is the system indians use, but from your description of carnatic system, I assume konokol is only one of various systems they use in indian.
Anyway, it seems very nice to counting, because words are associated to numbers, so it makes easy to change between multiple subdivisions(like you said). 

I will check your ancient traditions tip. ( i'm kind of beginner, so.. it's not really advanced, isn't it?)

I've been fight over months to learn rhythmn, when I think I understand, something different appears,  

If I have a specific doubt I will tell to you guys.

Sorry offtopic.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 6, 2009)

Rhythm rocks. I couldn't tell you what key D, G and A (the chords) were in when I'd been playing guitar for two years, but counting was so easy. I've taught people how to do additive meters in a minute, and it just wows whoever's listening. It made composing much easier last semester, as I can't make four part harmony sound good, and if you ask me to count syncopation in a simple meter, I'll flub it. 

Honestly, giving yourself an education in rhythm is one of the surest musical investments there is.


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## TimothyLeary (Feb 6, 2009)

As you have that gift, you should write a lesson about it!! or a video! 

I think people who have logical thinking and perhaps are good in math, have more chances to understand rhythms, than people who like philosophy that try to racionalize everything. Or maybe i'm just frustrated.. -_-


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## Naren (Feb 7, 2009)

shredthelight91 said:


> dude you have an awesome drummer by the sounds of it. Keep him around for a while



Definitely. We've had 4 drummers so far in my band and this dude is, by far, the best. And, unlike the previous drummers, his taste in music and the kind of stuff he wants to do is pretty much in line with us. Our first drummer had the least technical skill, but was really creative, and he wanted to do melodic metal or hard rock, so it was no surprise when he quit. Our next drummer was really into grindcore and brutal death metal, but he didn't have the feet to play the music, so we fired him. The next drummer was a lot better than the two previous and was really into black metal and melodic death metal and it kind of came as a surprise when she quit (her arms were really strong, but her feet were so-so as far as strength goes). But, this new dude is way better than anyone else. He learned 10 of our songs perfectly in 2 weeks and arranged the drums with even more complicated stuff. I would write songs in odd time signatures before, but I had to put them on the backburner because none of our previous drummers could really wrap their minds around them, but this new dude actually gets excited about the odd time signature stuff. Pretty technically impressive drummer with a lot of creativity.


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## MerlinTKD (Feb 7, 2009)

TonalArchitect said:


> When I think of Polyrhythm, I think of two or more independent layers of rhythms in the context of the subdivision which share a time signature, although I'm not suggesting that as a requirement.
> 
> For instance, if I tap out an even four pulses with my left hand and an even five with my right (that was _fun _to learn), and they both consumed the same time span, then I would call that a polyrhythm.
> 
> If I tapped out pulses of even duration between both hands (that is, both hands tap out quarter notes without that irrational rhythm nonsense), but I accented the first of every four notes with the left hand and the first of every five notes with the right, I would consider that a polymeter.



TonalArchitect has it correct.  Polymeters often (usually) create polyrhythms, which, _when using one of the meters as a reference_, are usually syncopated rhythms.

Having said all that, names like these are just labels put on existing concepts to help explain what is going on, and as such are less important than the actual concepts themselves. You think Martin and Tomas sit around arguing about whether they're playing polymeters or polyrhythms?

On the other hand... I dunno, maybe they do! 


This thread has inspired me, btw, I've been trying to work some (very light!) poly_rhythmic_  stuff into my band's music... we'll see how that pans out!


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## demontamer (Feb 7, 2009)

If I could have a drummer like him,it would be the best thing ever happen to my musical career ahahah!
I'm tired of people that don't get the importance of polyrythmics in metal music today...


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## Joeywilson (Feb 7, 2009)

I WISH!

my drummer hates me because the majority of our riffs are in odd time signatures
he can do them well and he can comprehend polyrhythms but he doesnt like doing it

I geuss in a way he sometimes does
for exapmle we have one song thats in 13/8
he plays it in 5/4 it sounds kind of off but the way he phrases himself makes everything work out.

when we started this band our original drummer who was into stuff like BTBAM, The number 12 looks like you and dillinger escape plan the word "4/4" was a lost artifact and polyrhythms made up a lot of our songs, it got to the point where it almost wasn't fun
we'd do things where we were all in different time signatures, i would be playing a riff that was in 7/8, my bassist in 5/4 and then he would be playing in song un-countable time sig, and over that i'd be singing.
i miss that dudes drumming he played Zyglrox with me perfectly and had an amazing snare that had dried blood on it for some reason


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## TonalArchitect (Feb 7, 2009)

TimothyLeary said:


> I will check your ancient traditions tip. ( i'm kind of beginner, so.. it's not really advanced, isn't it?)



It's written such that someone who doesn't play any instrument can pick it up, but it has enough content that most anyone can learn something. 

Matthew Montfort, the author, explains everything pretty lucidly; the only thing that confused me was the part about tala. I didn't know what to do with them (at first)! For some reason it took a while for it to click that they're just the equivalent of time signatures-- albeit often big, horrifying 29/4-style time signatures. 



TimothyLeary said:


> I've been fight over months to learn rhythmn, when I think I understand, something different appears,
> 
> If I have a specific doubt I will tell to you guys.



Yep, we'll try to answer whatever you need.



MerlinTKD said:


> TonalArchitect has it correct.  Polymeters often (usually) create polyrhythms, which, _when using one of the meters as a reference_, are usually syncopated rhythms.







MerlinTKD said:


> Having said all that, names like these are just labels put on existing concepts to help explain what is going on, and as such are less important than the actual concepts themselves. You think Martin and Tomas sit around arguing about whether they're playing polymeters or polyrhythms?
> 
> On the other hand... I dunno, maybe they do!



 

Like other music theory and such it's only there as a tool to use. Fun and interesting to discuss, but nothing to stress over if it's a polymeter -rhythm or -whatever. 



MerlinTKD said:


> This thread has inspired me, btw, I've been trying to work some (very light!) poly_rhythmic_  stuff into my band's music... we'll see how that pans out!



 

Hit quarter notes on the hi-hat and quintuplet quarter notes on the snare. 

We know how well they adjust to different places of the snare.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 7, 2009)

4:5/5:4 is probably one of the harder ones, really. x:2 is where you want to start out, methinks; it's hardly even polyrhythmic at that point. 7:2 is 7, however you wish to divide it, with the two beat pattern on 1 and the and of 4. Easy stuff.


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## TonalArchitect (Feb 7, 2009)

I know, 4:5 is quite difficult. I suggested it because he said his band falls apart if the snare is on anything but the 2 or 4 of 4/4. Unloading such an evil birhythm would really screw them up. 

Anyway, 2:x is fairly easy, but 3:x becomes much more difficult, in my humble opinion. 

Interestingly enough, 4:5 feels a lot like 3:4, but carried a bit further.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 8, 2009)

Ah, snare. Gotcha.

Speaking of polyrhythm, that concert was pretty cool. I've heard better tabla, and I would have preferred another raga, but the mridangam player was excellent. The alaap took forever, and the first song was about two hours, but there were a hell of a lot of good cadences. Everyone was going wild. Toward the end, there was some 4:3 going on (it was teen-taal, so 16:12?). Unfortunately, I didn't stay for the second part, as the girl I went with was bored (big surprise).


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## xfilth (Feb 14, 2009)

I love to write subtle polyrhythm into my works, but most of the time, the outcome is either better of straight or simply too hard for the band to play 

It's fun though


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 15, 2009)

Anyone wanting to look into this more.. John Maclaughlin has a DVD called "Gateway to rhythm" that is all about how he uses Konnakal/solkattu in his songs.. Most Mahavishnu Orchestra stuff has konnakal in it. Its really cool.

I have a project for school where I have to write like a minute of konnakal.. hmmmmmm. haha.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 16, 2009)

NickCormier said:


> I have a project for school where I have to write like a minute of konnakal.. hmmmmmm. haha.



Holy shit, your school kicks ass.


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## Koshchei (Feb 21, 2009)

As long as it fits into the music - it's fine to screw around with the time signature, but changing the number of pulses in a measure can totally change the way the music sounds.

You can fuck him up by adding free time sections if you want


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 22, 2009)

yah that is what I find the most difficult... free time sections where you have to use ques, or those "retard" or whatever (slowdown sections)


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## Vairocarnal (Mar 5, 2009)

My drummer has some of the craziest skills of anyone I've ever met. I would attempt to explain what he does but I'm self taught and will BUTCHER the terminology so in lieu of the emberassment I will give an IOU for examples to be redeemed after saturday's show.


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## LamaSabachthani (Jul 1, 2010)

Naren said:


> No. In syncopation, the beat consistantly falls on a beat that normally isn't stressed. Since the bass drum, snare, toms, ride cymbol, hi hat, and splash symbol are in 4/4 and the crash cymbol is in 3/4, the crash symbol will not consistantly fall on the same beat.
> 
> drums: 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 4
> cymbol:x......x......x.......x......x.......x
> ...



Haake's _mo_ is doing something simple with the cymbals (4/4 seems to be most common) and then going in odd meter on the kick and snare right?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 1, 2010)

1) rubbish bump.

2) has anyone in this thread figured out that what they're all calling polyrhythms are actually polymeters yet?


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## Ricky_Gallows (Jul 1, 2010)

Yeah actually yesterday we jammed some meshuggah style riffs theat go from 5/4 to 9/8

congrats on the awesome drummer! their hard to come by.


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