# I hate sound people



## No Soul (Jun 23, 2005)

Most of them just plain out suck and are jerks. And even for the few that arent jerks they just plain dont know what they are doing. Of all the places Ive played in the Bay Area I can say theres only 2 places where I liked the sound. The first is probably because they have A LOT of metal bands comming throuhg, and new exactly how to set us up. The other place was cuz they let us set up the mix ourselves.


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## Christopher (Jun 23, 2005)

You know sadly, this is often the truth in many places. The problem lies in that it takes years of experience and hands on training in order to be a good soundman yet most clubs pay about as much as you'd expect to see a roadie get paid. So you're not getting real sound people at these venues just poorly paid wannbees. 

I've worked with a lot of people over the years and seen a whole lot of "sound people". Some guys are just the tops. When you get a qualified sound technician or engineer you know right away. Sadly when you don't you know that just fast.

There are those of out there who really do spend years learning and relearning to get good, it's just hard to find us.


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## Dylan7620 (Jun 23, 2005)

yes, lot of people who dont know what they're doing and dont really know what a "mix" is. if they can hear every part going on at the same time then they call it a mix.


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## Christopher (Jun 23, 2005)

If you've got guys mixing that well, you're better off than most I hear. Getting all the instruments to be heard is a hard step for a lot of guys. Getting guys who not only know what they're doing but who know how to mix different bands for genre specific stuff is next to impossible at the price point most venues are willing to pay!


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## eleven59 (Jun 23, 2005)

At our first show, the overall sound wasn't bad, though the bass was a little too loud sometimes. The main problem was the vocals. The lead singer was too quiet, I was too quiet (backing vocals on two songs, lead on one), and our bassist, who sang two notes on one song was way too loud.

Our other two shows were better, though the places were small, the monitors sucked at the one place, my mic was off for a bit at the one show, the drums weren't mic-ed (understandably), and the amps were running through the PA either, so it's not like a good mix was hard, since we always set our amps to be a good mix with the drums unamplified. We've found a place that we like playing at, though we did have a problem with feedback on my mic (we had to bring our own mics, they don't have any, that's the only problem with the place) and there was no one at the soundboard the entire time, until the guy who organized the show (and has told us he knows nothing about gear) went over and tried to fix it (obviously didn't work).


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## Dylan7620 (Jun 23, 2005)

yea, the battle of the bands i played at in may had a makie team come in and do the sound... they actually knew what a stage plot was! we sounded fucking huge, it was awesome


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## Christopher (Jun 23, 2005)

I've always been a huge believer in the old premise that the best sound man in the world is the one you don't notice. That goes from both sides of the stage, performer and audience. Most people only notice the sound tech or the quality of the rig when there are problems.

Anytime there are the simple things like feedback or mics left off or whatever you can almost always chalk that up to incompetence. In some venues though, it has more to do with how terribly under equipped or just plain lousy the rig is.


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## Shawn (Jun 23, 2005)

No Soul said:


> Most of them just plain out suck and are jerks. And even for the few that arent jerks they just plain dont know what they are doing.


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## No Soul (Jun 23, 2005)

Even the ones that supposedly know what they are doing. 
Theres this club in Oakland that my band used to play at a lot, and the sound man there won a grammy for his engineering work for some album, but foookin eh, he couldnt do a half way descent live mix to save his life. Im always so tempted to tell him when we play there to not mic anything!


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## eleven59 (Jun 23, 2005)

No Soul said:


> Even the ones that supposedly know what they are doing.
> Theres this club in Oakland that my band used to play at a lot, and the sound man there won a grammy for his engineering work for some album, but foookin eh, he couldnt do a half way descent live mix to save his life. Im always so tempted to tell him when we play there to not mic anything!


Any idea who he is or what album? 

For what it's worth, studio engineering and live sound are totally different (thankfully I've done both. My live sound was terrible, only because it was a half-broken Yamaha board with some banged up SM-58s through a Peavey PA with blown-out subs, with no monitors, in a gym  Not to mention the singers kept wanting everything quieter...but don't you dare take away their microphone, "don't turn me up, just make everyone else quieter"  )


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## Shikaru (Jun 24, 2005)

Our local sound guy is horrible. I'm not sure he has any idea what he's doing. He did the sound at all of my band's early shows, and seeing as we'd never had anyone else, I wasn't too bothered. But just a few weeks ago, we played this sort of, local festival type thing, and they had a professional sound company providing equipment. The sound was just phenominal. Although they didn't mic up my gutiar cab very well, it was feeding back a lot. Although when they did the sound for the other local metal band playing, they sounded terrible. Muddy as hell, couldn't make out anything that was going on. So it was good, because it made us look better 

I've got a bit of video from that gig I may post sometime if I can find somewhere to host it.


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## No Soul (Jun 24, 2005)

eleven59 said:


> Any idea who he is or what album?



Dont remember. It was something that nobody here would be interested in thats for sure. Some pop vocal blah blah blah stuff. For what its worth he works at iMusicast in Oakland California. If any of you guys are from the Bay Area, or are planning to play here, be warned. Not only does the sound suck (despite them having some really good equipment) but most of the people that work there just suck period. If you want a good list of venues and promoters and all things music that suck in the Bay Area, just let me know  

For a while I started thinking the problem was the nature of the music my band plays (high gain metal guitars, crazy triggered doube bass drums, growling vocals etc etc) but then I remembered back to my ska and reggae days... 

Once again, sound people suck. 
I actually rank them one step bellow a 16 year old guitar center salesman.


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## Jason (Jun 24, 2005)

i cant understand how people can suck so bad at sound like wtf? Its not that hard at all like wtf? i just cant understand it at all


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## No Soul (Jun 27, 2005)

xtranscendedx said:


> i cant understand how people can suck so bad at sound like wtf? Its not that hard at all like wtf? i just cant understand it at all



They are like Mechanics, if they arent working on their own shit they dont care.


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## Christopher (Jun 27, 2005)

I've definitely got my hands full on Thursday with my own shit. We're doing our CD release party show in small park / ampitheater kind of thing. I'll be playing lead guitar, mixing the whole band from the stage, and oh yeah, recording the whole thing with my Pro Tools rig from slighty off stage. I think I'll end up spending about twice the time we're on stage setting up!


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## Ancestor (Jun 27, 2005)

Yeah, heh, I feel for you, dude. I've never had a decent sound guy. I always try stay one step ahead of them. Close mike the drum heads when they're not looking, give them one volume for rhythm, but keep the lead volume a secret. And, monitors? Forget it. Get used to playing without them, cause they usually aren't there.


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## Shawn (Jun 29, 2005)

We played a show at the Old Port Tavern in Portland, Maine one night back in July 2001 and the sound guy was an hour late and to top it off while we were already set up and ready to go for quite some time, he sits his ass down to eat soup for a half hour and finally we do a soundcheck that lasted 30 seconds. We were pissed. We sounded okay but could've been alot better had he have been there earlier. He was a moron too. The worst soundguy I have ever seen.


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## Ancestor (Jun 29, 2005)

Oopsey daisey. I forgot there is one badass sound guy, JD from the Mug. He does a killer job. There's probably good ones besides him that I don't know about.


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## Donnie (Jun 29, 2005)

Man, the soundguys that I work with here are bad ass. They know their shit and understand that you want to sound good and they make it happen. 
There have been a couple that sucked balls though. One didn't want to run my 9 string through the mains. He thought it was going to destroy his system.  They don't get it that when I tell them that it doesn't put out the low frequencys of a bass. Yet he runs the bass through the pa.


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## Chris D (Jul 6, 2005)

Donnie said:


> They don't get it that when I tell them that it doesn't put out the low frequencys of a bass. Yet he runs the bass through the pa.


^ if that wasn't so sad it would be hilarious!

I've found that writing snotty letters to the venue owners helps (written from the point of view of a disgruntled audience member)
After all shitty sound=bad reputation amongst gig-goers & bands=less punters, promoters seeking alternative venues etc... The problem arises because venue bosses seldom understand that the soundman is such an important job.

It ain't hard for wannabe soundppl to read up on theory & practice (google) and if it's unfamiliar genres that stump them they should do the friggin homework.
Hell, some of them don't even know the difference between microphonic & acoustic feedback!


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## MCMike37 (Mar 28, 2007)

Talk about dragging a thread up from the grave.

Yes I'm new.

No I don't play guitar.

Yes I'm a geek.

That all being said, some of the guys from my work have put together a band for fun and they have gone pretty crazy with the full setup. They know I'm a technology nut so they asked me to run their soundboard. Full 24 channel with all the drums mic'ed, bass, two guitars, keyboard, five vocal mics, 2500 watt main amp for the towers, two monitors mainly for vocals. They are a cover band, do mostly rock and roll (Guns And Roses, Dire Straits, Van Halen, etc) and will more then likely play all small venues, bars, barns (Don't ask), and the such.

I have in fact being trying to search online via google as the above post mentioned about some basic tips and tricks. I obviously have never done this before and this thread definitely tells me that it ain't an easy thing to pick up. 
I guess I have two main questions, that have been touched on this thread, but would like further info if possible.

1. Why do the bad sound guys piss you off? Improper mix, the sound guy not caring, not taking into account acoustics of the venue or type of music? I am somewhat of a sound perfectionist at home with a dedicated home theater and can't stand bad sound, plus they ar guys I work with and I want them to sound good to everyone else as well.

2. Where and what is a good place to read up on gotcha, tips, and tricks to soundboards and sound theory? (They have their first "gig" in two days time And yes, I am still searching through the forums for stuff on this subject, but I figured this thread was a perfect place for the first post considering my questions)


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## Popsyche (Mar 28, 2007)

MCMike37 said:


> Talk about dragging a thread up from the grave.
> 
> Yes I'm new.
> 
> ...



You drug up a thread of folks that just don't know how little they understand about audio. If you pride yourself on your ear, your halfway there. The most important tool you have. I have been mixing for 30 years, so here goes!

1). Bad sound guys happen because club owners are the lowest form of life, like lawyers without the education. They will spend as little as they have to and pocket as much CASH from the bar as they can, and then leave the place bankrupt. You are going into a situation where the more you do on your own, the better off you are. Bringing your own PA puts you WAY ahead of the game. The kids in this thread are blaming the soundguy for everything. How loud was their stage volume? If they were balanced with the drummer in their opinion, they were too loud. You want the band as quiet as possible. YOU want to control the levels, not try to compensate for their giant egotistical "if it's too loud, your too old" mentality. 

Lesson one. Your there to "reinforce" what is happening on stage. If an instrument is loud enough, don't do anything with it. Also don't be afraid to ask members to turn down so you have control of the levels. If it seems loud enough, but not spectrally balanced, just add the missing frequencies.(that ear thing again). Vocals will always be the loudest thing, in most cases, you are just adding the highs missing from the vocal monitor bleed. In other words, don't just mix levels, mix eq as well. Provide what is missing, with no fear of not reinforcing what doesn't need it. It will change venue to venue as well. Every day a new mix!


2). Pro-sound web has thousands of posts that will keep you busy. Also, acquire a copy of the Yamaha professional audio book. You'll learn a lot!!!!!!!!!


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## Chris (Mar 28, 2007)

Hi Mike.


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## MCMike37 (Mar 28, 2007)

Greetings oh wise and all knowing Chris.

I got a lot of work to do in the next couple of days

I almost forgot to mention the best part of this. While I am not "in" the band, all the guys on stage are married, so if they have to pawn one off on me, darn.


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## Popsyche (Mar 28, 2007)

MCMike37 said:


> Greetings oh wise and all knowing Chris.
> 
> I got a lot of work to do in the next couple of days
> 
> I almost forgot to mention the best part of this. While I am not "in" the band, all the guys on stage are married, so if they have to pawn one off on me, darn.



Been there boyee! Greetings!


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## The Dark Wolf (Mar 28, 2007)

^  Mike sounds like he fits right in.


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## Chris (Mar 28, 2007)

Now, shower him with good advice, because the one time I ran the board, I was pretty fuckin' terrible at it.


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## MCMike37 (Mar 28, 2007)

Sam isn't here, so please only advice, no urine.

Thankfully the first performance, albeit in a barn, is in front of only work people so they will think it's awesome sounding no matter what (Not to mention most will be completely blotto before the band even starts)

I actually bought a pair of Sennheiser HD 595 headphones mainly for this job. Granted I needed a new pair of headphones at home, but I figured they would serve dual purpose. 300 dollar headphones for a mere 140 bucks shipped  (Aw, no  enabled here)


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## Chris (Mar 28, 2007)

Gotcha covered.


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## MCMike37 (Mar 28, 2007)

Wow, it pays to know the owner

Another question along the same lines of this thread. Recording off the soundboard via computer. Any preferences on programs to use for that sort of thing? It would simply be a stereo input (Well, mono input split into two channels) but it will be vastly better then last time when the only sound you could get was via the house mix which sucks.


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## The Dark Wolf (Mar 29, 2007)

Any decent modern recording program will work good - Cubase, ProTools, Soundforge, or Sonar.


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## ohio_eric (Mar 29, 2007)

Popsyche said:


> Bad sound guys happen because club owners are the lowest form of life, like lawyers without the education


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## Ancestor (Mar 29, 2007)

Sound guys are usually bitter, because if someone has a good show thanks to great sound, the sound dude never gets the credit. It's always, "What a great band! What amp are you using? What's that snare?" But, if the sound is bad, wham! The sound guy get reamed. 

A guy that works in professional broadcasting pointed this out to me. He's right. So, try to be nice (even if you're getting screwed). And remember that most of the people are not listening critically. They just want to have fun and get laid.


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## Chris (Mar 29, 2007)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Any decent modern recording program will work good - Cubase, ProTools, Soundforge, or Sonar.



I'd probably go with SoundForge of all of those, just because it's one single stream in and SF is ridiculously easy to use.


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## Drew (Mar 29, 2007)

MCMike37 said:


> Wow, it pays to know the owner
> 
> Another question along the same lines of this thread. Recording off the soundboard via computer. Any preferences on programs to use for that sort of thing? It would simply be a stereo input (Well, mono input split into two channels) but it will be vastly better then last time when the only sound you could get was via the house mix which sucks.



Ditto here on Sound Forge, if you're only doing a stereo mix. You might know this, if you're interested in high-end audio, but ideally you want to be peaking between -3-6db when you hit the computer, to keep your noise-to-signal ratio as low as possible, but still save a bit of room for the occasional unexpected transient. 

That said, if these guys aren't afraid of spending the money, you might be better off investing in like an 8-track Firewire interface, and then bussing into the computer through that - record the guitar on one track, bass on another, lead vocals on a third, second guitar or backing vocals or whatever else there is left on a fourth, and then use what you have left for the drum kit. This gives you a LOT more mixing flexibility down the road. The downside is if you're going to try to record your entire set this way, you're basically looking to do 8 hour-long audio tracks, which is a HUGE system drain on a computer. If possible, get them to give you 15-30 seconds between tracks every now and then to save and open a new project. 

Um, for live sound... There's two ways to do it. Popsyche knows his shit (I believe he works in the sound reinforcement industry), and his suggestions here are good ones. However, especially if you're looking to get an acceptable recording off the board, it's not the only way to do it and it might not be the most appropriate. If you can keep stage levels low enough, you might be better off simpyl micing EVERYTHING up, and getting a goood mix through the mains and using that to fill the club. How hard does your drummer hit? Is your guitarist one of those "everything on 11" guys? 

If you do go the sound reinforcement road, and still want a good board mix to record, you might want to see if you can create a seperate bus, and send one mix to your mains, but have a seperate submix going where in addition to the mains mix, you're also mixing in a pair of stereo mics facing the stage, to capture a bit of the audience noise (adds "energy" to the concert sound), as well as reinforcing anything that's not going through the mains and is coming off the stage - your drummer, a loud guitarist, etc. Worth a shot. 

Finally, well done on the single thing.


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## Lozek (Mar 29, 2007)

OK, here's my  of the main things that bug me:

1) Kick drums. It seems to me that most sound guys who have a half decent rig to work with just want to revel in the level of low end that comes out of it, so the kick drums always end up being so ridiculously high in the mix that it destroys everything. This always seems to happen at intermediate level shows though, usually small ones don't have a PA that can even manage that.

2) Sound guys that don't LISTEN. The amount of times that I've been onstage and the guy is mic'ing my cabinet and I'll say 'Top right hand speaker is the best sounding, and I normally find that if your pull the mic back off the grill cloth by about 1 1/2-2 inches then you'll get a lot more present sound out of my cab'. Do they listen? Never. The last guy that did that argued with me saying 'Yeah, but then other instruments are going to bleed into the mic unless it's right on the cloth', to which my reply was 'I'm running a 180w Mesa power amp into that cabinet, there is no way that anything is getting into that mic except my oppressively loud guitar'. Still he didn't listen, so I just waited until we walked onstage and adjusted when he couldn't get to it.


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## MCMike37 (Mar 29, 2007)

Drew said:


> Ditto here on Sound Forge, if you're only doing a stereo mix. You might know this, if you're interested in high-end audio, but ideally you want to be peaking between -3-6db when you hit the computer, to keep your noise-to-signal ratio as low as possible, but still save a bit of room for the occasional unexpected transient.



Good tips. The recording is just a bonus because everything is running into the soundboard. And for my own benefit of playing around and looking even more geeky by hooking my laptop up to the board as well

I do have an aux out as well that I can control seperately from the monitor/main mix, and that is what I will be using for the recording.



> Finally, well done on the single thing.


Thanks, I think.



Lozek said:


> OK, here's my  of the main things that bug me:



Both things I can agree with. The benefit is that I actually want them to sound good cause they are guys I work with, plus I simply like good sound. As far as telling guys what to do, no way. I am this new to the thing, so they tell me what they want and I figure it out from there.

Thanks for everyone's input on this a lot of great tips and things to look out for, keep em coming. I got a day and half now


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## Drew (Mar 29, 2007)

MCMike37 said:


> And for my own benefit of playing around and looking even more geeky by hooking my laptop up to the board as well



Chicks do diig geeks. 

Have these guys had much experience with live sound or recording before? If not, I can probably add some more insight to what Lozek was saying. Most guys dial up "their" tone by hanging out in a room with their amp, and tweaking until it sounds right. This is cool, but think about how a mic works compared to how your ears work - your ears are listening from maybe six feet off the ground and six to ten feet back, whereas a mic is an inch or so off the grille and RIGHT in front of the speaker. As such, it's going to capture a LOT less bass and a lot more treble than you're used to hearing, as the "room" sound you're used to has the effect of smoothing out the highs and giving the bass some room to breathe. 

The bass isn't an issue, most likely, as this gives the bass guitar a bit of extra room, but the treble... Well, what sounds good to your guitarist is going to sound like a blizzard of nails to the room. Tell the dude to start dialing in his tone listening in from directly in front of a speaker over the next day or so. when he gets it down, when you mic up, the sound you'll be capturing is going to be more "balanced" sounding than what a "room sound" amp setting would give, and the guitar tone coming through the mains will sound a lot better.


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## lailer75 (Mar 29, 2007)

not to turn the tables(i`ve had my share of inexperienced soundouces) but i`ve always lived by "what goes in like shit, comes out like shit". it`s not just always the sound guys fault, it`s also inexperienced bands that think "we sound great in my moms basement, were a killer live band!" then blame sound guys for not recreating moms basement


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## MCMike37 (Mar 29, 2007)

I will say the one good thing is the guys in the band do have some experience. Bass guy essentially picked up a bass for the first time about three months ago, but was a music major and teacher for a couple of years. Drummer hasn't played in a long time but is also coming along nicely. Rythm guitar has been playing for a long time, but not really anything live. Lead guitar is the most proficient and actually was on the Warped tour a number of years back. Lead vocal has been singing all his life and been performing live (Although not rock and roll) for the better part of three decades.


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## Popsyche (Mar 29, 2007)

MCMike37 said:


> I will say the one good thing is the guys in the band do have some experience. Bass guy essentially picked up a bass for the first time about three months ago, but was a music major and teacher for a couple of years. Drummer hasn't played in a long time but is also coming along nicely. Rythm guitar has been playing for a long time, but not really anything live. Lead guitar is the most proficient and actually was on the Warped tour a number of years back. Lead vocal has been singing all his life and been performing live (Although not rock and roll) for the better part of three decades.



Great! You have allies! What model of mixer are you using? IF it has direct outs on the channels, run them pre EQ and Pre fader to the recording program. The 8 channel firewire (Firepod) is a great choice. That way, you will have the raw material, and it won't affect the room mix. If you're going with just 1 or 2 channels, take the signal off of a prefader aux bus. Tell me what mixer you have, and I'll gladly advise further!


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## Christopher (Mar 29, 2007)

Popsyche said:


> Great! You have allies! What model of mixer are you using? IF it has direct outs on the channels, run them pre EQ and Pre fader to the recording program. The 8 channel firewire (Firepod) is a great choice. That way, you will have the raw material, and it won't affect the room mix. If you're going with just 1 or 2 channels, take the signal off of a prefader aux bus. Tell me what mixer you have, and I'll gladly advise further!



I love my A&H Mix Wiz for that very reason. I have two eight channel cable snakes that I run out of the Mix Wiz into the 8 inputs of my Digi002r and to my Behringer ADA. That way I can get the skinny on each channel and mix it later. Makes for some pretty sweet live recordings.


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## MCMike37 (Mar 30, 2007)

Popsyche said:


> Tell me what mixer you have, and I'll gladly advise further!



It's an oldie, but the guy got it for like 200 bucks. Electro-Voice BK Series (Manual is here for all the info - http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Mixers/Owners Manuals/BK Series Owners Manual.pdf)

There will be no more equipment bought for recording, what that gives us is all I get.


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## Popsyche (Mar 30, 2007)

MCMike37 said:


> It's an oldie, but the guy got it for like 200 bucks. Electro-Voice BK Series (Manual is here for all the info - http://archives.telex.com/archives/EV/Mixers/Owners Manuals/BK Series Owners Manual.pdf)
> 
> There will be no more equipment bought for recording, what that gives us is all I get.



How many monitor mixes will you use? How many effects busses? Mixing in stereo?


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## MCMike37 (Mar 30, 2007)

The monitor mix is essentially only going to be vocals going back to the band. Only effects are some reverb on the vocals. As far as mixing in stereo, everything coming in is mono, but I will use some pan to give it a stereo feel to it.


EDIT : Not sure why this is "auto-merging" these posts since they were almost a full day apart...


Well, just got back from the first "gig" in the barn. I have some action shots (Read, staged) of my way high tech mixing booth.

Things could have gone better, but they definitely could have gone worse. By far the hardest thing is to get the friggin' vocals heard over everything else. The first set both guitar amps were up way too loud. I essentially cut them out of the main mix and what was coming out of their amps was what the crowd heard. Got that remedied for the second set and was able to actually attempt to reinforce the band. (After I realized that due to other things I cut the treble on the lead vocal and forgot about it until three songs into the second set ) Only problem is lead guitar was using his full on performance amp which he won't have for future gigs, but hey, I'll adjust.

Didn't even mess with the recording aspect at all, only enough to realize that what sounds good live for the room sounds like shit if you were going to record it. I have a newfound respect for live albums and how hard it is to get that to sound good.

Lots of good lessons learned tonight even if they weren't sound related. This was the first real setup and use of the whole soundboard and main speakers. One good thing is that I essentially went unnoticed, a quality I would think is highly appreciated in the music world.

I definitely had fun though, even though it was frustrating at times cause I wanted to do more. Hopefully after some more practice with the board and band I will be able to better bring out what needs to be brought out in songs. I find myself really looking forward to the next performances so I can make them better.

Oh, and just for shits and giggles, the band's name is Unnecessary Bacon. Yes, there is a story behind it


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## MCMike37 (Oct 5, 2007)

Well, dragging this up from the dead, but just completed the first "World Tour" of Unnecessary Bacon. Played a couple of different countries (India, Singapore, Hard Rock in Hawai'i) and even had a couple songs where Bud Gaugh (Former drummer of Sublime) sat in to play with the band. Learning curve has been huge and the many varied places and types of venues they play always gave a challenge to make everything sound good with all the comments and tips you gave. Still enjoy the job and look forward to their second World Tour early next year.


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## Ext789 (Oct 7, 2007)

stage sound first and then add the house sound to taste and musical style. sound guys are assholes cause they are tired of telling guitarists to turn down.


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## Popsyche (Oct 7, 2007)

Ext789 said:


> stage sound first and then add the house sound to taste and musical style. sound guys are assholes cause they are tired of telling guitarists to turn down.



What does this mean?


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## Ext789 (Oct 7, 2007)

Popsyche said:


> What does this mean?



it means you set all the monitors and then add in the front of house mains, cause the stage sound effects everything else. a lot of sound comes from just the stage monitors and you don't need to blast the mains. I posted that cause of something else some one posted in this thread. Guitarists always turn up louder it seems like. Then the engineer gets grumpy cause they're are effecting his front of house sound.


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## MCMike37 (Oct 10, 2007)

You know, that was a common theme for every performance. "Dude, you need to turn your amp down, you are drowning out everything else."


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## Lozek (Oct 10, 2007)

There's a lot of good points in here but I've got to agree, most local venue engineers are pretty jaded because they have to deal with useless musicians day in & day out, think about the amount of bands that you have seen that are terrible/disorganised/drunk, and then imagine dealing with them every day while getting paid peanuts.

On the tour i just got back from, we had our own guy with us who was really good. Some of the local monitor engineers left a little bit to be desired though, you cod tell the ones who were on the ball even with the language barriers.


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## Popsyche (Oct 10, 2007)

Ext789 said:


> it means you set all the monitors and then add in the front of house mains, cause the stage sound effects everything else. a lot of sound comes from just the stage monitors and you don't need to blast the mains. I posted that cause of something else some one posted in this thread. Guitarists always turn up louder it seems like. Then the engineer gets grumpy cause they're are effecting his front of house sound.



OK. I'm still missing your point, Are you angry that sound guys ask you to turn down, or angry at guitarists because they don't turn down?  I have been playing guitar on stage for 36 years, and mixing live for 32.


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## Nick (Oct 10, 2007)

Lozek said:


> There's a lot of good points in here but I've got to agree, most local venue engineers are pretty jaded because they have to deal with useless musicians day in & day out, think about the amount of bands that you have seen that are terrible/disorganised/drunk, and then imagine dealing with them every day while getting paid peanuts.
> 
> On the tour i just got back from, we had our own guy with us who was really good. Some of the local monitor engineers left a little bit to be desired though, you cod tell the ones who were on the ball even with the language barriers.



fact^^^^

Sound guys usually end up hating bands because most bands these days are [email protected] terrible. Musical instruments being easy to get hold off (cheap ones) has oversaturated rock music in general. Most of the sound guys will have to deal with guys ever night giving them shit about 'but i always run the gain at 10, its 'my sound'' and using shitty gear then blaming the soundman because their 'death/grind' band sounds terrible onstage and on the floor.

Give these guys a break because they get abuse from morons daily and so are obviously going to start approaching bands with preconceptions of what they are going to be dealing with.


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## The Dark Wolf (Oct 10, 2007)

I'm always amazed at how loud guitarists always seem to be, especially when I jam with them. It forces everything else to go up, and inevitably, vocals get crushed, and any sort of note definition goes out the window. Sigh.


I think because I always do sound, I'm one of the rare guitarsist who actually turns _down_.  I'm always turning myself down and everyone else up a little. My philosophy is it should sound like a studio song as much as possible. And vocals are _always_ first.  (For reference, check out the fucking fantastic live mixing job they did on Lamb of God's 'Killadelphia' disc. Holy shit.)


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## Nick (Oct 10, 2007)

i once saw a sound guy i know stride through the crowd onto the stage and turn a guys master volume down while he was playing then shout in his ear 'if you turn that up again im cutting you out the mix alltogether!'

thats how its done


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## Benzesp (Oct 10, 2007)

OMG this stuff is too funny. Doing live sound isnt a easy as some of you guys make it out to be . You are dealing with many limitations, crappy house gear, crappy band gear, and the worse attitudes you could imagine. When there is 5 bands playing and you have 15 minutes to strike the previous bands gear and get the other bands gear up and ready it can be a tense situation. 

You want to sound the best you possibly can? Be patinent, be cool, and dont be a dick. The soundman will appreciate a group of guys who are cool calm and collected. In the end the sound reflects on him professionally. And hey, here's an Idea, it he hooks it up and give you a good mix, drop him 20 bucks or whatever he'll definatley appreciate it and will probably hook you up the next time you play there.


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## Popsyche (Oct 10, 2007)

The Dark Wolf said:


> I'm always amazed at how loud guitarists always seem to be, especially when I jam with them. It forces everything else to go up, and inevitably, vocals get crushed, and any sort of note definition goes out the window. Sigh.
> 
> 
> I think because I always do sound, I'm one of the rare guitarsist who actually turns _down_.  I'm always turning myself down and everyone else up a little. My philosophy is it should sound like a studio song as much as possible. And vocals are _always_ first.  (For reference, check out the fucking fantastic live mixing job they did on Lamb of God's 'Killadelphia' disc. Holy shit.)



Brutha Bobby preachin to da choir! I am NEVER told to turn down. You rokstar guitarists out there need to learn that you are not live at the Hammersmith Odeon and can crank at will! Sluggo's bar doesn't require that level of volume to overpower a room. 

Here's a new word for you musician types Reinforcement. The sound guy is there to reinforce your sound, not battle with it. I have done (many) mixing gigs where the determining factor in the room mix was the stage volume of the guitar, not even the drummer, who was also being drowned out. Your rig is there to generate a sound, not a volume level. If you need that much gain to get your magical sound, try a 15 watt amp. The other guitarist in my band was told to turn her 30 watter down. Why? Because the sound guy was a prick? No! She was TOO FUCKING LOUD! No one could hear any vocals and the room was loading.(Getting really boomy... you know what I mean!) Want to sound good? Have your band balanced in level so that the mixer can add and subtract instruments to the mix when needed. Let them control the levels, and if they are idiots, it wil give them the best chance to give you the best show they are capable of. Remove the variables. K.I.S.S.

BTW, I'll stop here and say that I have had to deal with idiot sound guys too, Alot! I had to take over at my wife's cousin's wedding, because the hired Bozo couldn't find the feedback. I've had them tell me no when we asked for another vocal mic, because there were 2 up there, and that's all we needed(for 4 vocalists.)

When I mix, I add in only the level and THE FREQUENCY MIX that is missing from the stage(much of it generated by the monitor rig). If I only need to add the missing thump and click of a kick drum, because the middle i sall there, that's what I do. If the monitors are so loud that I only need to add some missing sparkle to round out a vocal, thats what I'll do. Shit, I've mixed bands that all I had to add was the reverb through the PA.

Guitarboys, understand that you are part of the system, and it will ONLY be as good as you are at fitting into it!


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## Ext789 (Oct 11, 2007)

Popsyche said:


> OK. I'm still missing your point, Are you angry that sound guys ask you to turn down, or angry at guitarists because they don't turn down?  I have been playing guitar on stage for 36 years, and mixing live for 32.



haha i'm not angry at all. just pointing out a common problem between sound guys and the guitarist in the band... at least thats been what i've seen.


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## Popsyche (Oct 11, 2007)

Ext789 said:


> haha i'm not angry at all. just pointing out a common problem between sound guys and the guitarist in the band... at least thats been what i've seen.



Well, my friend, which side of the fence are you on? Which do you agree with? What is YOUR opinion?


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## Wiggywiggler (Oct 11, 2007)

Wahhey.. I've only ever seen ONE live situation with big sound issues.. They had 2 guitarists, 2 halfstacks, and the other was inaudible. Because the other one was too loud. I still couldn't hear jack shit from either  A horrble echoy old garage for live work anyways.


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