# Affordable NON-SUPERSTRAT 8-strings?



## lossfizzle (Feb 29, 2012)

Howdy. Been lurking here a bit for a while and I'd really like to try messing around with an entry-level 8-string. 

It seems all the usual suspects only offer Superstrat form factors with their 8- and 9-strings. While I don't judge my guitars by their looks, I absolutely cannot stand the look of Superstrats-- it only gets worse with archtops, flametops and/or locking trems-- and I know I'd never be able to bond with one. 

I sent an email to Kurt @ Rondo since he's often proven receptive to end-user ideas, but I'm wondering if anyone out there is currently making, say, an 8-string Tele without charging a million billion dollars for the luxury. I sure haven't found one yet.


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## Valennic (Feb 29, 2012)

Highly, highly unlikely.

In fact I'd say its more downright impossible. Good luck to you though.


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## Waelstrum (Feb 29, 2012)

The only non-superstrat I can think of is an Agile hornet.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 29, 2012)

Define "affordable".

Tom at Oakland Axe Factory has a single cut 8-string design starting at $1500.


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## lossfizzle (Feb 29, 2012)

The Oakland Axe is getting pretty high up there. I'm pretty used to routinely scoring great (or great-to-me) axes for almost nothing, but I've resigned myself to having to spend significantly more for an 8-string for simple supply-and-demand reasons. Still, my USA Hamers only cost me $600 each (used) and that's about the most I've ever felt the need to spend on guitars. $1500 is, like, pedal-steel or good-upright-piano territory for me. 

I'd still maybe consider $1500 if he had a Tele design; not totally crazy about the space-age-LP look. 

I had not seen the Hornet. It's a better option than most of the rest of the current Rondos, but I'd kind of prefer to stay away from old-school-metal-style axes altogether.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 29, 2012)

^ Schecter avenger 8 string on drumcityguitarland.com. Schecter devil 8 string on same site


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## Valennic (Feb 29, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> The Oakland Axe is getting pretty high up there. I'm pretty used to routinely scoring great (or great-to-me) axes for almost nothing, but I've resigned myself to having to spend significantly more for an 8-string for simple supply-and-demand reasons. Still, my USA Hamers only cost me $600 each (used) and that's about the most I've ever felt the need to spend on guitars. $1500 is, like, pedal-steel or good-upright-piano territory for me.
> 
> I'd still maybe consider $1500 if he had a Tele design; not totally crazy about the space-age-LP look.
> 
> I had not seen the Hornet. It's a better option than most of the rest of the current Rondos, but I'd kind of prefer to stay away from old-school-metal-style axes altogether.



You're not going to find any 8 string Tele's outside of Oakland Axe Factory that are even REMOTELY affordable. You may just want to save your pennies man.


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## lossfizzle (Feb 29, 2012)

Valennic said:


> You're not going to find any 8 string Tele's outside of Oakland Axe Factory that are even REMOTELY affordable. You may just want to save your pennies man.



Well, that's the thing - a) OAF doesn't seem to _have _a Tele form factor, and at $1.5k I would prefer to get something pretty close to exactly what I want. b) At $1.5k (frankly, probably significantly less), there's a local luthier who makes decent custom guitars entirely from scratch, and whom I'm pretty sure I can get to help me out. 

I do understand the market for 8-strings is much smaller, hardware and electronics are pricier because they're more specialized and don't sell in quantity... but the Tele style is not only a lot more attractive to lots of players, it's just about _the_ cheapest type of guitar to produce. I am honestly a little surprised that no one is offering anything beyond double cutaways. I haven't been able to turn up anything either, but I thought I'd ask 

r3tr0, thanks for that info. The models you cite are pushing more into BC Rich territory-- still not what I'm after (although the coffin model is kind of fun, but... nah).


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## Miek (Feb 29, 2012)

There's nothing inherently cheaper about a Tele's shape, dude


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## zachyl (Feb 29, 2012)

I too love the telecaster shape but the reason there are more strat style guitars, as opposed to the les paul, telecaster, or v shapes, is because the double cutaway is the most popular model and sells the most. Businesses make what sells.


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## Philligan (Feb 29, 2012)

This comes to mind, too. From what I've played, I think the Schecters are built better than Agiles, but that's just my experience. YMMV.


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## Valennic (Feb 29, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Well, that's the thing - a) OAF doesn't seem to _have _a Tele form factor, and at $1.5k I would prefer to get something pretty close to exactly what I want. b) At $1.5k (frankly, probably significantly less), there's a local luthier who makes decent custom guitars entirely from scratch, and whom I'm pretty sure I can get to help me out.
> 
> I do understand the market for 8-strings is much smaller, hardware and electronics are pricier because they're more specialized and don't sell in quantity... but the Tele style is not only a lot more attractive to lots of players, it's just about _the_ cheapest type of guitar to produce. I am honestly a little surprised that no one is offering anything beyond double cutaways. I haven't been able to turn up anything either, but I thought I'd ask
> 
> r3tr0, thanks for that info. The models you cite are pushing more into BC Rich territory-- still not what I'm after (although the coffin model is kind of fun, but... nah).



I always viewed them as a Super Tele kinda deal . Oh well, if they're not your thing that's fair enough man.

I have no idea what kind of miracles you can work for 1.5k, but if you know a luthier who will do a full custom for that, you point him to this site and to all the people who come here with similar demands. There's a VERY high demand for insane quality at an insanely low price round these parts.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 29, 2012)

I still say look at drumcityguitarland xD They have schecter 8s in the following shapes: Riot, Casket[], V, Avenger, Devil, and Solo. There is no shortage and Schecter has good quality. 

I mean look at this!

Schecter DIAMOND SERIES Hellraiser Devil-8 Black Cherry 8-String Electric Guitar


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## lossfizzle (Feb 29, 2012)

Miek said:


> There's nothing inherently cheaper about a Tele's shape, dude



Well, maybe not compared to something like the Agile Intrepids (which are probably among the best-looking 8-strings I've seen overall, actually). But when you get into extensively carved tops, flame tops... it may not add up to much in the age of CNC etc., but it definitely gets passed on even now to the consumer. Even with the Chinese invasion, you don't start seeing those "features" until you spend significantly more buxx over baseline from the similarly-planky Epiphone Les Paul Special IIs et al. 

I don't dislike those features because they cost more, though. I just don't like the way they look. I'm not into unnecessary bling.

Based on what's out there (does Schecter *really* only offer that Paul clone in flame-top hot purple?!), I think the general assumption is that eight-string buyers will ALL want a guitar that "looks metal," and with the limited market there seems to be very little desire among the mass makers to deviate from that possible misconception. Some of us want exactly the opposite of a "looks metal" guitar, even if we still plan to make what amounts to metal with it. It really wouldn't take much to produce just one bolt-on, single-cutaway, non-pointy-headstock axe...


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## lossfizzle (Feb 29, 2012)

Valennic said:


> I have no idea what kind of miracles you can work for 1.5k, but if you know a luthier who will do a full custom for that, you point him to this site and to all the people who come here with similar demands. There's a VERY high demand for insane quality at an insanely low price round these parts.



Yep, and if I go that route I'll happily report back. I've def been meaning to tell him to look into this site anyway. It does seem like it's an area that could use some market correction


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## Fiction (Feb 29, 2012)

If you think an intrepid 8 is the best looking 8... Get one?

Also, Guitars cost the exact same to produce. A tele shape will cost the same as a superstrat, it depends on hardware and what woods you pick and quality define the price If you only want to spend $600 on a tele 8 you're pretty much out of luck.

If you want an insane figured bit of wood, it's going to cost more then a bland piece, if you want bare knuckle pickups it's going to cost more than Cepheus or dimarzio, if you want your frets crowned and leveled and a smooth neck, it's going to cost more to get the quality compared to a squire. If you want a tele Shape, it will cost the same as superstrat. Shape =\= price.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 1, 2012)

Fiction said:


> If you think an intrepid 8 is the best looking 8... Get one?



It's one possible option, sure, but though it's more tasteful-looking in some ways than many of the other mass-manufactured options, it still looks totally silly to me. If I could spend a few more hundred and get something I wouldn't mind being seen with on stage, I'd happily go that route. 



Fiction said:


> If you want a tele Shape, it will cost the same as superstrat. Shape =\= price.



All of your arguments are well and good and I agree with most of them (although, as I've said before, the added cost of top-carving, trans flame finishes, binding, etc. certainly do show up in the final retail price of most instruments). But I think I've helped derail the point of my thread a little with this type of discussion... it's not really about wanting something necessarily _cheaper_ than the current Superstrat options. It's about wanting something that _does not look like a Superstrat_ (or _any other_ metal-associated body style, for that matter). 

That option is apparently not currently available to me among the mass-manufactured models, or at least the responses to this thread indicate this... and I think that's a real shame. 

Combine the current very, uh, genre-limited style options with the added cost of getting into an 8-string, and there are a lot of players out there who will be potentially shut out from ever trying one. 

It's one thing if you have to settle for an instrument whose looks you really can't get into; it's another thing if you have to pay more or much more for an instrument than you are used to paying. Combining the two is going to be an outright dealbreaker for most players, I suspect.


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## no_dice (Mar 1, 2012)

I saw an Agile 7-string tele on guitar center's used gear site the other day, but I've never seen an 8-string tele. I'll agree a lot of current 8-string options are a bit tacky looking, but for the level of specificity you're asking, it's not going to be as affordable as you'd like, as you seem to be in a tiny niche market within an already small niche market.


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## explosivo (Mar 1, 2012)

I've actually been itching to do an 8-string Telecaster for a while now, and I could do it for about $1450 (Hipshot bridge, D-Activator 8s, Gotoh tuners, Maple neck, Mahogany or Ash body, Wenge fretboard), or if you're after something a bit more "diverse", I could throw in some Lace Alumitones for $1500.

(hopefully that's not too excessive in the self-promotion department  )


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## lossfizzle (Mar 1, 2012)

no_dice said:


> I saw an Agile 7-string tele on guitar center's used gear site the other day, but I've never seen an 8-string tele. I'll agree a lot of current 8-string options are a bit tacky looking, but for the level of specificity you're asking, it's not going to be as affordable as you'd like, as you seem to be in a tiny niche market within an already small niche market.



Yeah, I know I definitely might be in the minority here (wouldn't be the first time). But the primary manufacturers of mass-market 8-stringers don't seem to have actually even _tried_ selling a more stripped-down, no-nonsense / traditional design as an 8-string. Hard to say how small the "sub-niche market" is unless you've actually tested it, know what I'm saying? There might be a lot of players quietly sitting on the fence until they can get an 8-string instrument they can live with.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 1, 2012)

explosivo said:


> I've actually been itching to do an 8-string Telecaster for a while now



Explosivo, thanks for the self-promotion. Looks like you're doing some pretty cool stuff... I may come talk to you somewhat later on, pending a discussion or two with my own local-luthier pal... (no offense, but I've known him for a long time and I'd like to give him a shot first if I have to spend this much $$$ to get something done.)


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## no_dice (Mar 1, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Yeah, I know I definitely might be in the minority here (wouldn't be the first time). But the primary manufacturers of mass-market 8-stringers don't seem to have actually even _tried_ selling a more stripped-down, no-nonsense / traditional design as an 8-string. Hard to say how small the "sub-niche market" is unless you've actually tested it, know what I'm saying? There might be a lot of players quietly sitting on the fence until they can get an 8-string instrument they can live with.



Fair enough. Well, if you're speaking up to some of the guitar makers, maybe you'll be helping out more people that are after the same thing you are. Good luck in finding what you're after!


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## Daken1134 (Mar 1, 2012)

Brooklyn Gear BG8 8 String Guitar

check it. thats about as cheap as your going to get for a singlecut 8 that ive seen


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## Tom Drinkwater (Mar 1, 2012)

Getting an 8 string tele or strat from a factory based operation should happen eventually. Fender Custom Shop made an 8 string strat back along so it's not like they can't do it. The key is the expense because they are all $5000 and up. As ecstatic as I'd be if I could get a $500 MIM Fender 8 string tele I'm not holding my breath. Agile, Schecter or ESP could definitely pull it off though. All 3 of those companies make or have made really nice strat and tele copies.


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## stuglue (Mar 1, 2012)

Fact is a small local luthier cannot compete with mass produced factory guitars from the big manufacturers, China is produced guitars of all qualities and prices. The luthier who built my 7 string could not build an equivalent guitar in his workshop for the same or less cost as the same mass manufactured guitar. Yes you can get the guitar to your spec but it costs more and you have to wait for it to be completed.


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## Philligan (Mar 1, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Yeah, I know I definitely might be in the minority here (wouldn't be the first time). But the primary manufacturers of mass-market 8-stringers don't seem to have actually even _tried_ selling a more stripped-down, no-nonsense / traditional design as an 8-string. Hard to say how small the "sub-niche market" is unless you've actually tested it, know what I'm saying? There might be a lot of players quietly sitting on the fence until they can get an 8-string instrument they can live with.



To put this in perspective, people bugged Kurt for ages to make a traditional, 7 string Strat. He listened to everyone and designed it basically to their specs based on polls taken on this forum. 22 frets, vintage-style trem, traditional colours... He even shipped it with an HSS setup and included and SSS pickguard for people who wanted to go full-on traditional Strat. After months of work and getting people to sign up on an informal "will buy" list, he finally released one for a price that was about level with the Texans, given the features. To this day I haven't seen a single one purchased and posted on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter. They're still just sitting up on his site.

Epiphone did some 7 string LP Studios and Standards, and while they didn't do terribly, they obviously didn't sell well enough for the company to continue the line. Same with Gibson's attempts at 7 string Explorers or Vs. 

Guitar manufacturers are holding off because history has shown them that taking risks like that isn't worth it, and the guitar playing community clearly isn't creating enough of a demand for more "traditional" styled 8 strings. It's cheaper for Schecter to turn away a few customers who don't want C-8s than to spend money on R&D and production of a guitar that they don't even know will sell or not. Especially when, at the price you want, it would have to be produced offshore, which means entirely new CNC programming and a whole new assembly line with new parts which requires more training and potentially more employees.

Part of the reason could also be playability; super strats are generally a bit easier to play to most (more upper fret access, etc.), something that becomes more crucial when you have a significantly wider neck to reach around. Most people who want one badly enough are able to get over how the guitar looks. Such as this guy, who also posts on this forum now and then:



Also, you may not like arched tops and flame maple tops, but they definitely aren't "genre-defined" styles. Tell that to Paul Reed Smith. An 8 string Tele would be awesome, but it realistically isn't going to happen anytime soon for the price you're talking about. Your best bet would be waiting for Rondo's custom shop to open up, and then you're probably looking at around a grand or so. It's been done before.







http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...32908-agile-texan-8-custom-actually-done.html


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## stuglue (Mar 1, 2012)

In terms of the 8 string market, well its very early days. Just think the 7 string came out 20 years ago and they are still a niche market. The 7 and the 8 are the mainstay of modern metal and I can't see the country playing tele guys wanting or needing am 8 string


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## celticelk (Mar 2, 2012)

I can't stand superstrats either. I play an Oakland Axe Factory singlecut 8, and I highly doubt you'll find anyone willing to build you a single-cutaway 8-string for a substantially better price. Strictly 7 did a Tele-style 8-string for ss.org member anne recently, but I don't think there's been a NGD post for it.


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## celticelk (Mar 2, 2012)

Philligan said:


> To put this in perspective, people bugged Kurt for ages to make a traditional, 7 string Strat. He listened to everyone and designed it basically to their specs based on polls taken on this forum. 22 frets, vintage-style trem, traditional colours... He even shipped it with an HSS setup and included and SSS pickguard for people who wanted to go full-on traditional Strat. After months of work and getting people to sign up on an informal "will buy" list, he finally released one for a price that was about level with the Texans, given the features. To this day I haven't seen a single one purchased and posted on this forum, or anywhere else for that matter. They're still just sitting up on his site.



In the interest of accuracy: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/160301-faasngd-finally-agile-sentiel-ngd.html

There's only one, so far as I can tell, but there *is* one.


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## Fred the Shred (Mar 2, 2012)

You haven't stated a budget here, so I am suggesting this blindly to you:





Blackat guitars. You have a thread about them here.

EDIT: just say 1500 USD. At the current currency rate, it should be in that ballpark, shipping excluded.


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## TheBotquax (Mar 2, 2012)

Daken1134 said:


> Brooklyn Gear BG8 8 String Guitar
> 
> check it. thats about as cheap as your going to get for a singlecut 8 that ive seen



I'm sorry, but that's the ugliest guitar I have ever seen


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## Knyas (Mar 2, 2012)

TheBotquax said:


> I'm sorry, but that's the ugliest guitar I have ever seen



Then you clearly haven't seen many guitars


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## Necris (Mar 2, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Yep, and if I go that route I'll happily report back. I've def been meaning to tell him to look into this site anyway. It does seem like it's an area that could use some market correction


Market correction, really? Just like you I get most of my instruments used so am somewhat accustomed to finding high quality instruments for generally less than $1000. But do you honestly expect an established custom builder to charge an amount equal to a brand new upper-mid range priced guitar mass produced in an offshore factory? 
If anything a large amount of custom builders, if not most of them, would go under if that were how they were forced to operate. The components that make up the guitar itself aren't all that determines the cost of an instrument. 
Relevant reading:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...ons/113913-why-guitars-cost-what-they-do.html
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/lu...take-cnc-timeframes-etc-interesting-read.html

Considering the average cost of a 6-string custom guitar from an established builder/company ($3000+) $1500 for a fully custom 8 string guitar isn't cause for complaint. 
It's great that your friend can build you a guitar for that much, but I'd be far more at ease spending the extra money ordering from a builder who was known for a history making a quality product.


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## Tom Drinkwater (Mar 4, 2012)

> Then you clearly haven't seen many guitars
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That's what happens when you let people drink at work!!


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## Tom Drinkwater (Mar 4, 2012)

Of course the backwards V looks better than a backwards ES335.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 4, 2012)

Necris said:


> Market correction, really? ...do you honestly expect an established custom builder to charge an amount equal to a brand new upper-mid range priced guitar mass produced in an offshore factory?



No, I definitely do not. Please remember, the original point of my thread was to find an existing mass-produced axe that fit my criteria. I find $1500-2000 is definitely a reasonable amount for a _stripped down, absolutely no frills_ instrument that still requires a significant amount of manual labor and specialized know-how to build. 

Do I want to pay that much myself? No. Which is why I want a mass-produced axe, and came here asking for one.

But on the "market correction" comment-- what I _have_ also seen in my shopping are a lot of custom 8-string builders charging significantly more than $2k. $3.5-$5k seems more typical.

Billing out at $80/hr, which is more like auto-shop rates than the wages most folks earn for their work in the real world, a $5k guitar utilizing, let's say, $500 worth of raw materials and prefab hardware should equate to 56.25 hours of _continuous_ manual labor. For an experienced luthier, I suspect the actual amount of time spent to build a guitar is far, far less than that. 

We could get into "supply and demand" arguments here too, I suppose-- a builder can only expect to sell so many $5k custom guitars in a year, etc.-- but the bottom line is this: Value your labor more realistically, sell higher volume, profits thusly stay the same or go higher, and your name gets out there more, and more sales result, and there we are. 

I think a lot of smaller MI companies and interests, especially those selling to niches, keep their prices artificially inflated because they feel they'd only be able to move x number of their niche products no matter the price. They are missing out on a potential mass market that way. 

I'd love to have a carbon fiber acoustic guitar. Only a few companies make them; they cost $2000+. I'd also love to have a carbon fiber cello. Those are only made by one company, and they cost $8000. Given the method of manufacturing with CF, the cost of each one should be closer to maybe $300-400. But these companies are keeping their retail costs high-- figuring that it's a matter of "when" rather than "if" re: China figuring out how to make carbon fiber instruments. Why not drop the price now, revolutionize the respective markets, and make yourself _the_ name to reckon with in these new fields?

But I digress.



Necris said:


> It's great that your friend can build you a guitar for that much, but I'd be far more at ease spending the extra money ordering from a builder who was known for a history making a quality product.



Actually, my "friend" is a luthier who has been operating a legit repair and build shop in a large metro area for about 30 years now. He's done all my setup and repair work for the last four years. He has an online presence where you can order a couple of basic designs from him (still custom made to order) for extremely fair prices. He has a shop full of instruments he's made over the years-- both crazy and straightforward. His guitars rarely totally blow me away, as he generally uses a different neck profile and finish than the ones I prefer for his "selfish" builds... but he does quality work, and charges very fairly for it. Yep.

That all said-- I actually really like the look of that Brooklyn Gear. Still a little metalesque with the pointy horn... but it's mostly very livable. No weird lower-bout cutaways or curves, no ridiculous "EXTREEEEM" fingerboard inlays, and man, do I ever love that open-frame headstock! Thank you daken1134! I'm gonna look into this.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 4, 2012)

...From past forum threads, looks like I am definitely alone on this board in my earnest love of that Brooklyn Gear's headstock. Everyone here thinks it's the worst thing ever. From this, vs. my own immediate "whoa" reaction, I hypothesize that it must be... the anti-pointy headstock. 

(I do hate the silkscreened Brooklyn Gear logo, though. Cheesy. Looks like a sweatshirt bought at Target in 1995.)


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## Hollowway (Mar 4, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Billing out at $80/hr, which is more like auto-shop rates than the wages most folks earn for their work in the real world, a $5k guitar utilizing, let's say, $500 worth of raw materials and prefab hardware should equate to 56.25 hours of _continuous_ manual labor. For an experienced luthier, I suspect the actual amount of time spent to build a guitar is far, far less than that.
> 
> We could get into "supply and demand" arguments here too, I suppose-- a builder can only expect to sell so many $5k custom guitars in a year, etc.-- but the bottom line is this: Value your labor more realistically, sell higher volume, profits thusly stay the same or go higher, and your name gets out there more, and more sales result, and there we are.
> 
> I think a lot of smaller MI companies and interests, especially those selling to niches, keep their prices artificially inflated because they feel they'd only be able to move x number of their niche products no matter the price. They are missing out on a potential mass market that way.



Maybe, but it's all theory. And the fact that most of the small time luthiers are choosing to not follow the lower price higher volume says that either A) You're theory is wrong or B) You've got a great idea on your hands. Either way, you're not likely to convince a small luthier to drop their prices, and/or quit their day job to do it. 

Also keep in mind you're talking about 8 strings here, which is a super small market. And like all markets, no matter how much you charge or how great your product, there will always be someone who chooses something else. So the likelihood of capturing the entire market is limited. So it may well just be that lowering the cost doesn't increase the number of units sold.

Plus, there's no "rule" that says a certain amount pay per hour is appropriate for luthiers. In fact, I'd say that many would make the argument that $80 per hour is just fine, and not inflated at all. Lord knows it's way less per hour than lawyers make, or a Wall Street exec who makes no product, or a custom chopper maker. And telling a luthier that he should hire cheaper labor to turn out his instruments is telling him to run a big business rather than use his hands to make instruments, which is basically what he's chosen to do.

So I feel for you, but your argument is academic, because the reality is there's not much chance a luthier is going to read your post and drop their prices so long as people are buying.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 5, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> So I feel for you, but your argument is academic, because the reality is there's not much chance a luthier is going to read your post and drop their prices so long as people are buying.



Sure. Just as there are one-man hifi companies out there happy to sell you a $150k pair of speakers or a $100k turntable... at those prices, they are lucky to sell two a year. And *if* they sell two $150k pairs of speakers each year which cost maybe $3k each to build... heyheyheyyyyy, they're doin' pretty awesome. That kind of stuff has been going on for over 30 years in that industry now. As long as there are still people with money who believe on some level that a $150k pair of speakers is _automatically, like, 15x better_ than, say, a $10k pair... it will work. 

The free market is full of creative approaches, ranging from volume-over-margin sorts of models to the very opposite end of the spectrum. People need money to live; it'd be nice if we all had enough money to be comfortable. I would definitely never begrudge a custom builder any of that. 

But I also feel that with MI, if you're a one-man shop, it should probably be as much about the love of music and your craft as the love of money, if not more so. 

And realistically, most adult / working pro musicians probably can't afford a $5k guitar (at least if it's an "aux instrument" as an 8-string is likely to be for many players)-- so as you push your price in that direction, you are purposely aiming your wares at weekend warriors with disposable income rather than those who have also made music their life.

So while there are certainly no "laws" on the profit margins a luthier can make, I'd just personally prefer to do my own business with one who keeps all this in mind when they hand me the bill. 

And I also think it's important to recognize that there's nothing automatically better about a $4k+ custom instrument than a $2k custom instrument, or maybe even something off the shelf. (edit-- it's 5am and I forgot to finish this thought) There's a lot of price inflation in the niche pockets of the MI industry simply because an instrument's "value" in many cases is decided in an incredibly arbitrary fashion across the board, and so many players directly equate the cost of the instrument with its quality-- or its status-symbol cachet. I imagine a lot of custom builders keep their prices up because they are afraid they will make themselves look questionable or "uncool to own" to certain people if they are too low. 

One last anecdote: I'm into steel guitars too, both lap and pedal. A few years ago I ordered a brand new custom-made 8-string. The builder set his own price when talking to me. I paid just $350 for that instrument-- actually, now that I think about it, it may have only been $300. He took ridiculous pains at every step to show me how the work was going, offer me choices on this or that, etc. The guitar looks and sounds amazing. I'd feel like I was getting a great deal at twice the price.

Most of the builders in that also tiny little industry charge more like $800-1200 for an 8-string model, and they are ALL basically custom shops. Granted, there's more to a "Spanish" 8 string than an 8 string lap steel-- but not *that* much more. (Telling that Rondo's 6 string guitars start at $75-- and their 6 string lap steels start at $100!) If these little custom lap-steel shops can do it profitably for that kind of money, then it could also be done on this side of the fence for a bit less than it currently seems to run.


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## HOKENSTYFE (Mar 5, 2012)

I was recently put on to this maker, Equilibrium Guitars. I believe out of northeast, RI or Mass. I haven't dealt with them yet. Maybe something to look into. As their not that known yet, perhaps it would fit your budget? Then there's Monson Guitars, who I have also not tried yet. 

Maybe something will hit with you there.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks Hokenstyfe, will look into it.


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## SirMyghin (Mar 5, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Billing out at $80/hr, which is more like auto-shop rates than the wages most folks earn for their work in the real world, a $5k guitar utilizing, let's say, $500 worth of raw materials and prefab hardware should equate to 56.25 hours of _continuous_ manual labor. For an experienced luthier, I suspect the actual amount of time spent to build a guitar is far, far less than that.



When many custom luthiers are done, they re billing themselves in around minimum wage  Nowhere near 80$ an hour. Quality hardware is going to cost a fair bit. 56 hours on a guitar is not unrealistic either way. That is 7 working days (or 4.66 if you, like me, work 12 hour shifts). You also forgot to subtract hardware and material costs from that, which on a quality guitar could make up 600-1000$ on its own. Custom luthiers are not in the business to get rich, and as a matter of fact they re very often not even the least bit rich. It is a labour of love, largely. Not a cash cow.


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## Philligan (Mar 5, 2012)

SirMyghin said:


> When many custom luthiers are done, they re billing themselves in around minimum wage  Nowhere near 80$ an hour. Quality hardware is going to cost a fair bit. 56 hours on a guitar is not unrealistic either way. That is 7 working days (or 4.66 if you, like me, work 12 hour shifts). You also forgot to subtract hardware and material costs from that, which on a quality guitar could make up 600-1000$ on its own. Custom luthiers are not in the business to get rich, and as a matter of fact they re very often not even the least bit rich. It is a labour of love, largely. Not a cash cow.



This. Most luthiers work more than 56 hours on an instrument, and sell them for less than $5k. Maybe not much less, but that ~$1000 is a lot more than it sounds. 

Not to mention, a lot of "luthiers" are actually a few guys. The ones that are just a one man show turn out guitars at a much lower rate (for example check out the multi-year waitlists guys like Ola Strandberg have, or Doug Campbell had). So take that <$80/hr and split it between several guys.

Also, OP, try to avoid hyberbole. Aside from most of the Schecter 8 strings, very few (if any) mass-produced 8 strings have these extreeeem inlays you mention.

I don't know if he could do this, but it's worth talking to Matt Raines to see if he could do an 8 string. His 7s are a lot more traditional.


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## Daken1134 (Mar 6, 2012)

Hey no sweat dude. is was looking at it a while back cause i was looking for a live backup but i had an agile kind of fall in my lap but someone on here got one of them a while back and actually gave it a pretty good review


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## Erazoender (Mar 6, 2012)

What's wrong with the Agile Intrepid? To me that seems like your only option.


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## tommychains (Mar 8, 2012)

well, agile's known for having very variable 8 string quality. Some come out great, others come out like firewood. try Halo Custom Guitar - Baritone Guitar - Custom Bass - 8 String Guitar - Guitar Repair San Jose, they have a custom shop, right in your range.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 8, 2012)

The Intrepid is maybe the best-, simplest-looking option in the sub-$1k sector to me (aside from maybe the Brooklyn Gear), but as I said above-- it still looks pretty silly to me. And I have to openly admit I have not been all that into Agile's six-string guitars; I've owned, set up and modded four Agile set-necks over the years, but just couldn't find any vibe in them and eventually sold each one. I have multiple Taiwanese Yamahas and Korean Samicks that I adore, too-- no anti-Asian bias here.

Halo has a couple options that *could* work but it worries me that they have no actual pics of their related products. I notice all their headstock offerings on other guitars are pointy types.


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## celticelk (Mar 8, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> The Intrepid is maybe the best-, simplest-looking option in the sub-$1k sector to me (aside from maybe the Brooklyn Gear), but as I said above-- it still looks pretty silly to me.



Some explanation about why the Intrepid looks "silly" to you would help to clarify what it is you're looking for, apart from the "single-cutaway" specification.

With regard to your comparison to 8-string lap steels, I think you're *seriously* underestimating the amount of work that goes into shaping and fitting a good neck and player-friendly body. The physical relationship of player to instrument is completely different for a Spanish guitar than for a lap steel.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 8, 2012)

celticelk said:


> Some explanation about why the Intrepid looks "silly" to you would help to clarify what it is you're looking for, apart from the "single-cutaway" specification.



Fair enough, although I've also outlined this in an earlier reply to a similar inquiry. Here, as shown in the "numbered" pic I've provided of the "ocean blueburst" entry-level Intrepid, are some features I _personally_ object to:







1. Pointy headstock. Maybe not as pointy as, say, an old RG or something, but still pointy. Also would be nice if it wasn't also painted to match the body, especially in burst, and if the truss rod cover didn't also have to be asymmetrical and pointy to match the pointy headstock. 

2. Elongated, exaggerated cutaway horn on the player / left side of the body. 

3. This completely unnecessary lower-bout cutaway to the left of the strap button. I've noted that regardless of their body's "heritage," _tons_ of 8-strings have this (like the Oakland LP design). I don't know why this is here. It looks absolutely terrible by my reckoning. 

4. The overall "lean way up and to the left" profile of the guitar body that begins as the eye traces the profile leftward / clockwise from this point. Again, this seems to be extremely common among "mass market" eight-strings-- and a lot of modern Superstrat / other "metal-shape" six-string guitars of the last twenty years. Overall, I would personally prefer a body profile that keeps the "shoulders" and "feet" of the guitar on a roughly parallel plane. This is true of all the classic guitar types in my mind-- Teles, Pauls, SGs, LP Jrs. Traditional Strats do have a left horn that goes up higher than the right, but just slightly. I'm not crazy about traditional Strats either.

Finally, I don't like blue, especially light blue, and I don't like transparent finishes or bursts either. And that's about all you can get right now for 8-string Intrepids, with the "custom shop" not taking orders ATM.

Aaaand how's that for overanalysis? 



celticelk said:


> With regard to your comparison to 8-string lap steels, I think you're *seriously* underestimating the amount of work that goes into shaping and fitting a good neck and player-friendly body. The physical relationship of player to instrument is completely different for a Spanish guitar than for a lap steel.



No, I'm not quite underestimating that. In an earlier post, I said that I thought $1500-2000 was a pretty fair price for a custom "Spanish" guitar; that's a much higher price than what I consider fair for an eight-string lap steel. 

I used to also think there was a lot more that went into a fretted instrument than a lap steel-- but if you spend some time with a few well-made lap steels, you realize that there's not as much difference as you'd think. Just as the neck is a whole different ballgame, there's stuff that takes more work and wood (and woodwork) on the lap steel than it does on the "regular" guitar, and things like 8 string pickups are never cheap no matter what instrument they're being purchased for. 

And keep in mind that $3000-3500 will buy you a custom doubleneck (D10) pedal steel from about 50-65% of that cottage industry's makers, including whatever pedal and knee changes you could possibly want (7-8 pedals and 5-6 knees being usual at that level). I guarantee that the lack of a fretted, fitted neck is more than made up for by the R&D on / inclusion and adjustment of the PSG's mechanics, the second ten-string pickup, the two changer mechanisms required, all the additional hardware and metal, etc. Many of these guitars are also finished in a similar fashion to Spanish guitars, and there's more wood to finish, even though it doesn't have to be shaped quite as carefully. 

Anyway, this whole "what should a custom" cost argument is moot, and I shouldn't have let it go there to begin with. I'm frankly not in the market for a custom instrument, and I didn't come here trying to find some poor sap who would try and make me a guitar for $800 or something.


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## Miek (Mar 9, 2012)

> 1. Pointy headstock. Maybe not as pointy as, say, an old RG or something, but still pointy. Also would be nice if it wasn't also painted to match the body, especially in burst, and if the truss rod cover didn't also have to be asymmetrical and pointy to match the pointy headstock.


Fair enough. That's all personal preference, but I wouldn't call that pointy, personally. The truss rod cover does indeed look goofy.


> 2. Elongated, exaggerated cutaway horn on the player / left side of the body.


Due to the length of the instrument's neck, the upper horn is extended towards the 12th fret to better help keep balance. It's an issue of practicality rather than aesthetics in this instance.


> 3. This completely unnecessary lower-bout cutaway to the left of the strap button. I've noted that regardless of their body's "heritage," tons of 8-strings have this (like the Oakland LP design). I don't know why this is here. It looks absolutely terrible by my reckoning.


This has little to do with other companies' body designs but rather the _bass_ the Intrepid takes its design from.


> 4. The overall "lean way up and to the left" profile of the guitar body that begins as the eye traces the profile leftward / clockwise from this point. Again, this seems to be extremely common among "mass market" eight-strings-- and a lot of modern Superstrat / other "metal-shape" six-string guitars of the last twenty years. Overall, I would personally prefer a body profile that keeps the "shoulders" and "feet" of the guitar on a roughly parallel plane. This is true of all the classic guitar types in my mind-- Teles, Pauls, SGs, LP Jrs. Traditional Strats do have a left horn that goes up higher than the right, but just slightly. I'm not crazy about traditional Strats either.


All personal opinion, but you are starting to sound like a picky eater (compared to me, that is, I don't mean it as a slight against your character or anything).


> Finally, I don't like blue, especially light blue, and I don't like transparent finishes or bursts either. And that's about all you can get right now for 8-string Intrepids, with the "custom shop" not taking orders ATM.


Now it's starting to sound like you're SOL for Rondo, and, well, the guitar industry at large. If we take all of these considerations into account, you've essentially eliminated 95% of production 8 string guitars, if not more, from your prospective list of purchases.
With such a strict set of guidelines, it sounds like you will only be happy with a custom.
And yes, it seems like your perception of prices for customs is out of sync with what most builders will expect you to pay.


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## Blasphemer (Mar 9, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> While I don't judge my guitars by their looks, I absolutely cannot stand the look of Superstrats



It sounds like you do...



lossfizzle said:


> -- it only gets worse with archtops, flametops and/or locking trems-- and I know I'd never be able to bond with one.



What do you play, then? That leaves Teles and Explorers and you want an 8 string? 

Really, though, I don't think you're going to find anything. MAYBE a LP shape, but those are archtops, so those are out the window

Sorry, I'm being an unhelpful dink. I'll show myself out...


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## celticelk (Mar 9, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> 3. This completely unnecessary lower-bout cutaway to the left of the strap button. I've noted that regardless of their body's "heritage," _tons_ of 8-strings have this (like the Oakland LP design). I don't know why this is here. It looks absolutely terrible by my reckoning.



The lower-bout cutaway on OAF guitars is a customer option. Tom has built guitars without them; I believe there's a 6-string of that type pictured on his web page. I like mine with the cutaway. YMMV, obviously.

I certainly can't fault you for knowing what you like, but given that your tastes run explicitly counter to the vast majority of the 8-string guitar-buying public (who are, let us face it, mostly from a very small subsection of the metal community), it shouldn't be a surprise that there are no production models that suit your needs. The Brooklyn Gear 8 aside, that is, though my impression was that it's no longer being produced - the fact that their websites haven't been updated in 5-6 years is not promising.


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## Explorer (Mar 10, 2012)

I was so happy when I started exploring ERGs, and found that Darren had undertaken convincing Kurt to start building 8-string guitars. Using the pre-existing body shape from the bass guitar was to make it easy to get something like this produced, as it only required a different scale length and hardware. 

The goal of that successful effort was to have a guitar actually produced. That project succeeded, largely because there wasn't a major change from what had come before. 

Moving on to where we are today, I don't think there's been a huge demand for alternate body shapes on here, and it's been demand on SS.org which has driven most of the ERG development at Rondo. Similarly, if there's not a lot of visible demand, not much is going to happen. 



lossfizzle said:


> Finally, I don't like blue, especially light blue, and I don't like transparent finishes or bursts either. And that's about all you can get right now for 8-string Intrepids, with the "custom shop" not taking orders ATM.



Are you thinking that since blue is what's left after people have decided where to spend their money, that the blue of the leftover guitar is the basis of deciding how well the colors of the sold guitars work? Hmm. 

I'm a huge fan of direct pull headstocks, ever since my first Ovation in the '80s. To me, headstocks which have direct pull are a matter of function dictating form, but I understand that string trees and such can be quite appealing. I suppose it's just a matter of tastes.

----

I was grateful that the Agile Intrepid was produced, and I own two, as well as three LTDs (two FM408s and one FM418). I don't play metal, but I'm more worried about getting an affordable 8-string than with the shape or color. As long as it's not horribly non-ergonomic, I'm glad to be able to make music with an 8.

It's always interesting to see other priorities put ahead of that. It's valid to put the looks ahead of actually playing, so I hope you find something which pleases your visual tastes.


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## Tom Drinkwater (Mar 12, 2012)

I love the idea of an 8 string tele or strat. I think either model would be great and I'd even prefer the guitar to retain the original aesthetics and single coil pups. 

The only problem is that no one has ever approached me to order one. I think the idea of throwing down $500 on a custom 8 string tele bridge and $300 on a set of custom single coils usually kills it for most people. When you factor in the hardware and pickup cost along with the rest of the parts it just doesn't make sense to make something like that. 

For a factory to make that guitar they'd need to make hundreds of bridges and single coil pickups to get the cost down to an affordable level. That means that they would need to be able to sell hundreds of those guitars and guitar company execs aren't into taking chances like that. That leaves you with the small builders and paying that extra $800 to look like a traditional guitar. If you slap a Hipshot hardtail and Lace ERG pickups on it the guitar would be great but it wouldn't resemble a traditional strat or tele. You'd need to drop almost a grand on aesthetics alone.


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## Fiction (Mar 12, 2012)

I think you're looking for a _non-existent_ needle in a haystack


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## Metal_Webb (Mar 12, 2012)

The other option is get a super strat, cut the horns off, reshape the body and VOILA! The strat is gone!


Though seriously, you'd most likely get non-superstrats in fully custom orders.


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## lossfizzle (Mar 14, 2012)

Wow, more replies I wasn't informed of... sorry, y'all.

I'm honestly not such a tough customer when it comes to aesthetics (although I currently own 12 six-string electrics, most being fixed-bridge Paul or Tele derivatives, and only one of them is a pointy-headstock model at this point). The reason to be so picky about not just the feature set, but also the looks of this particular guitar:

a) I will probably only be able to afford one eight-string, if at all. 

b) Said guitar stands some remote chance of eventually being used on stage as part of a project for which I am explicitly purchasing it. 

c) Said project really doesn't need to be 100% associated with metal, and/or doesn't need to scream "OH SO THIS IS GONNA BE METAL" from the time the guitar appears out of its case. I would prefer the music speak for itself from moment to moment and that the style of instrument not pre-bias the five audience members in attendance as to the genre(s) they're about to be subjected to. I'd rather the music be judged simply as music rather than everything being filtered by the audience in explicit relation to metal. 

I'm in my mid-late 30s, teach music (of all kinds) for a living at the college level, don't wear black t-shirts or black jeans, and have to admit that I really enjoy going to the occasional metal show... in a button-up and khakis. I've always liked metal and found its subculture really interesting (as an outsider of sorts)... but music is my lifestyle, not any particular genre thereof. 

Plain-jane, workhorse guitar designs are appealing to me-- and lots of players-- because they are fit for playing just about anything. A Rails-equipped Tele with the right strings can handle nearly anything from chicken-pickin' to jazz voicings to lightly-detuned djent riffery. You could argue the same is true of (non-floating-trem) "metal guitars," but there are definitely prevalent genre associations with those body styles-- both for players and lay audience members-- that I explicitly wish to avoid for all sorts of reasons. 

Anyway, I appreciate all the input from everyone, and again-- I just have to express my surprise that there isn't something mass-market yet in a more stripped-down and traditional design in look. At this point, much as I'd like to have the much fuller range of options offered by an 8-string, it looks like I'll probably just strap a bari neck to a Tele body to get a little more lowdown, and wait things out.


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## Daken1134 (Mar 14, 2012)

lol i play in an instrumental prog metal band all 8 string... and i play in nice jeans and a button up express shirt usually....... i love the people who show up in all black looking chuff..... but no seriously get that brooklyn gear 8 cause i want to see a video of it. lol and i knwo someone on here got one and said it was actually pretty good


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## lossfizzle (Mar 14, 2012)

Daken, on top of everything else, I just noticed your avatar / icon. I'll think about maybe getting a Brooklyn Gear... for your wiiiiiine.


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## Explorer (Mar 14, 2012)

lossfizzle said:


> Said project really doesn't need to be 100% associated with metal, and/or doesn't need to scream "OH SO THIS IS GONNA BE METAL" from the time the guitar appears out of its case.



Interesting. I like that a shape approaching a strat would be the problem. Here's a bunch of non-strat bodies.


























And here's the problematic body shape. 






I guess we have different impressions of what kinds of instruments scream, "OH SO THIS IS GONNA BE METAL!" from the moment they come out of their case. 

Incidentally, when I've played out with my Intrepid, which looks like this...






...I've never played metal on it, and I've never had someone tell me that they expected to hear me play metal on it. 

Unless you're dressing like you're a metal player, you might be overthinking this a bit. And, if you *are* dressing like a metal player, it's probably not the guitar you need to worry about when you're thinking about what impression you're giving.

Still, good luck, whatever approach you decide on.


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## goldsteinat0r (Mar 14, 2012)

What about that Dean thing?


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