# The "Dream Act"



## willy petro (Dec 21, 2010)

Well as you may know The Dream Act is a way for illegal immigrants to go to college as long as they are morally good. Its a way for illegals who finish high school to get a free ride through college. No expenses what so ever. Personally I think this is a bunch of bull to be honest. Why should a person who has no right to be here be entitled to a free education. I don't understand why law biding citizens have to pay for schooling while the illegal immigrants are having things handed to them. I'd like to see other peoples opinions and viewpoints on this topic very much. I'm open for different ideas on this matter.

**correction there is no free ride. False information I looked at**


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## Customisbetter (Dec 21, 2010)

I need a link, but based on what I've heard, this is MASSIVE bullshit.


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## willy petro (Dec 21, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I need a link, but based on what I've heard, this is MASSIVE bullshit.



DREAM Act - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Here see if this clarifies things. From news and other things i've seen its ridiculous.


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## orb451 (Dec 21, 2010)

Yup, you can pretty much guess where I stand on this issue being one of the only semi-Right-swinging nutters on here  I think it's a crock of horseshit. Just another veiled attempt at amnesty, and yet another issue wrapped up in "warm fuzzy" feelings that bring a tear to your eye... 

Why we put law-breakers before our own law abiding citizens just boggles my mind.


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## IDLE (Dec 21, 2010)

Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment. 

Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.

My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.


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## The Somberlain (Dec 21, 2010)

What is "morally good" and why are we serving non-citizens while our citizens are largely unable to pay for college?


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## Customisbetter (Dec 21, 2010)

Ok to get the benefits of this Act, you have to show proof of living here..

WHAT THE FUCK 

They are illegals. Any sorts of ID or papers they are illegal. How the FUCK are we supposed to say "oh that blurry poloroid of you dated 2000 obviously proves you were inside US borders. Here ya go kid!"

Fuck. This. Shit.

Ok Im done. I'll wait for Orb to write a long winded and factual argument.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 21, 2010)

IDLE said:


> Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.
> 
> Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.
> 
> My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.



Exactly.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 21, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> Ok to get the benefits of this Act, you have to show proof of living here..
> 
> WHAT THE FUCK
> 
> ...



Fixed.



Love you orb


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## Customisbetter (Dec 21, 2010)




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## Explorer (Dec 21, 2010)

I haven't read up on this.

However, I'm willing to bet that the first post has at least one large error, given how often that turns out to be the case whenever I read an opening post like that.


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## Randy (Dec 21, 2010)

^


Yeah, that's not a very promising introduction.


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## renzoip (Dec 21, 2010)

IDLE said:


> Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.
> 
> Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.
> 
> My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.



I also agree with this. People are just so caught up in scapegoating of these people and they miss the real issue here. Once again, this is not granting anyone free education at the expense of poor honest hard working racist classist americans. Students would have to pay out of pocket or access private loans/grants. Now if the aid is private, then its not taking anything from anyone. On the other hand, these people came here or stayed here illegally while being minors, I don't see why they should be treated as if they really had any choice.

We bring tons people from overseas under H1 work visas to people who are not essential or sometimes even qualified for the jobs they claim, when we have all thee people here who have the capabilities and yet, we deny them jobs. But who is complaining there??

We blame undocumented migrants for taking our jobs (mostly jobs that we don't even want to do), yet when companies move overseas and take away thousands of jobs from american, who is complaining there? We actually award them by giving them tax breaks, lol.

Immigrants themselves aren't the problem, they immigration problem is only a byproduct of the capitalist system we embrace, of the "free" market that we preach. The right wing wants an open market, yet the reality is that only the goods market is open, labor remains systematically fixed and suppressed. 

This is the right wing doing what it does best. People on the top keep playing with the country, while managing to convince the vulnerable middle class that the cause of their problems is not them, but rather the lower disenfranchised classes. Divide and conquer, works every time.

So yeah, I buy none of the arguments against the DREAM act.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 21, 2010)

^ right on the money. I basically don't have to say anything here, now. Yet.


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## willy petro (Dec 22, 2010)

IDLE said:


> Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants. They are however eligible for private loans like anyone else though. In some states like California they are eligible for instate tuition provided they grew up in CA and went to Highschool there. Either way I think college should be free to anyone making the commitment.
> 
> Also why would you not want someone that is willing to fight for our country or use their education for the betterment of our society as a citizen? That's exactly the kind of citizen I want in this country. Think about it this way, where was Einstein born and what country was he a citizen of when he died? There are plenty more examples of that.
> 
> My opinion is that this is another example of the Republican's disinformation strategy. It feeds on nepotism and racism, not to mention a lot of the reasons against it are lies. I do agree there is an immigration problem, but these are the people we want.



This is exactly what I was looking for. I have no problem with them becoming citizens. My view on this is that the immigrants should have to become a citizen before they enter a college. Im fine with them wanting to fight for our country if they truely want to be an American.


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## willy petro (Dec 22, 2010)

Randy said:


> ^
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's not a very promising introduction.



Lol i know. Im just going off of what my school and local news has televised. Thats why i wanted other peoples views and opinions on this so I can make a better opinion about this issue.


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## willy petro (Dec 22, 2010)

renzoip said:


> I also agree with this. People are just so caught up in scapegoating of these people and they miss the real issue here. Once again, this is not granting anyone free education at the expense of poor honest hard working racist classist americans. Students would have to pay out of pocket or access private loans/grants. Now if the aid is private, then its not taking anything from anyone. On the other hand, these people came here or stayed here illegally while being minors, I don't see why they should be treated as if they really had any choice.
> 
> We bring tons people from overseas under H1 work visas to people who are not essential or sometimes even qualified for the jobs they claim, when we have all thee people here who have the capabilities and yet, we deny them jobs. But who is complaining there??
> 
> ...



Nicely put. I've thought about this all night. And i'm pretty right in the middle with the act. It truely isn't there fault they're here. So I don't see what the big problem is. From what im seeing now its not that bad. I hate when people shove info down my throat that means nothing. Thanks for posting and nice example with the outsourcing!


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## synrgy (Dec 22, 2010)

IDLE said:


> Well for one they don't get free college. They won't even be able to get Pell grants.



/thread.


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## cwhitey2 (Dec 22, 2010)

This is why i hate America...

My taxes pay for people who don't even live on this continent to come here and go to school . There are no real perks anymore for being a US citizen (yeah we are 'free' and its better than most places). I have no problem if they want to come get educated...but why should i have to pay for it? I cant even put myself through college. Yet some kid from poverty stricken India (just using them as an example) basically gets a free ride to take his 'doctorate' back to his home country and live the good life, if got half the money they got for going to school that would be stellar.

Oh, and this not just a rant. I have witnessed it first hand.


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## synrgy (Dec 22, 2010)

If anyone gives 2 shits to even try to get their facts straight, here's a decent link to start:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2010/dec/08/fact-checking-attacks-dream-act/


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## orb451 (Dec 22, 2010)

First, I love ya too Adam 

Second, let's be realistic and honest here, this bill is designed to help Latino immigrants. The students/immigrants coming here on work visas from India and Europe aren't sneaking in on American Airline flights. They represent the tiniest sliver of people that this bill is aimed at.

This bill is aimed squarely at Latino immigrants from Central and South America because they represent the *bulk* of our illegal immigration problem. The problem is a severe disparity between our country and our closest neighbor to the South, Mexico. They have let their country be overtaken with corruption at almost every level of government in addition to their drug cartel problems. 

An almost unending cycle of poverty is what drives them out of their country. It's not the "free" market that we "preach" or some Leftist propaganda that brings them here. They have no future, or a dim one, in their own country. Now contrast their living situation to ours. Our poor live like kings compared to theirs. And while our government may be a bunch of thieving bastards at times, the corruption in ours is vastly different than theirs.

This contrast is not a slight on them, just an observation. If that means I'm a racist, oh fucking well. So with this disparity, I'm not at all surprised that Mexicans are leaving their country en mass to come here for better opportunities. I only take issue with treating them *better* than our own citizens. 

They are here _illegally_. The proponents simply argue that they have no choice in the matter. That they are the _victims_. Thus, they should be REWARDED for breaking the law, or they should be rewarded because their parents broke the law. That's just laughable to me. Flat out laughable. 

So we reward law breakers, is that how this country works now? We reward bad behavior. Oh that's right, it's because they didn't know, or didn't have a choice in the matter. Read the Wiki article to start with, it says in there:

_An estimated 65,000 illegal immigrant students[18] graduate from high school each year.[19] However, it is not known how many of those were eligible go on to complete the further requirements. It is estimated that only 7,00013,000 college students nationally can fulfill the further obligations._

65,000 illegal immigrant students graduate each year. 65,000? That's pathetic. And of those, again, going by Wiki's numbers, 7,000-13,000 are able to fulfill the obligations if this was enacted? We're passing this bill to help a few thousand people? Really? No. They're trying to pass this bill in 2012 because it's an election year and the Democrats know that Latinos will flock to them like moths to a flame if they make their rounds, shaking hands and acting as though they're on the side of illegal immigrants. 

I've seen the same thing happen just in this last Gubernatorial election here in California. All the Left leaning candidates were condemning SB1070 in Arizona, supporting the boycotts, waving their arms around like they actually gave a shit about Latinos. And the Right leaning candidates were the opposite, until Meg Whitman won in the primaries. Then she flip-flopped and suddenly wasn't so tough on illegal immigrants. 

If you folks on the Left can't see what your leadership is trying to do with this bill, I feel sorry for you. Truly sorry. At the ground level, I can see why you think this is such a great idea. Why it seems like at face value to just "help" the poor law-breakers. But the actuality is, that this, like so much legislation out there, is just a power play. This is designed to cozy up to Latino voters in 2012. This bill has been kicking around since what? 2001? And it's had it's teeth kicked in almost every time.

After the mid-term election wake-up call that Democrats got, in addition to Obama's seemingly ineffectual administration as compared to what was promised, they know damned well that the only way to win in 2012 is to get as many voters as possible. This means Latinos. 

Bottom line is, we should NOT be rewarding law breakers. I've offered my ideas up for a conditional amnesty and I think that makes more sense than this DREAM shit. And that's another fundamental issue here, this bill is an attempt to provide an "easier" path to citizenship. Ha! Have you read the requirements? Of the whopping 65,000 illegal immigrant highschool graduates, how many do you think are going to actively *try* to get on this path? And of the ones who do, how many will actually succeed? My estimation is not fucking many. The burden of proof for these people is on THEM. That's the way the bill is currently written. They have to "prove" that they were here at such and such a time, living here since then, and "Good Moral Character"? Are you fucking kidding me? How ambiguous are they going to get with that? 

All that means in practice is that the person hasn't been *caught* doing anything wrong. Not that they're some stellar, upstanding citizen-in-training. Oh sure, some illegal immigrants are peace abiding, but none of them are law abiding, for if they were, they wouldn't be breaking the law when they come to our fucking country. They'd stand in line like millions of others and wait their fucking turn.


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## willy petro (Dec 22, 2010)

synrgy said:


> If anyone gives 2 shits to even try to get their facts straight, here's a decent link to start:
> 
> PolitiFact | Fact-checking attacks on the DREAM Act



Thanks for posting this! I really appreciate it!


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## willy petro (Dec 22, 2010)

orb451 said:


> First, I love ya too Adam
> 
> Second, let's be realistic and honest here, this bill is designed to help Latino immigrants. The students/immigrants coming here on work visas from India and Europe aren't sneaking in on American Airline flights. They represent the tiniest sliver of people that this bill is aimed at.
> 
> ...



I love you orb! You think exactly like me! Thanks for posting man!


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## orb451 (Dec 22, 2010)

synrgy said:


> If anyone gives 2 shits to even try to get their facts straight, here's a decent link to start:
> 
> PolitiFact | Fact-checking attacks on the DREAM Act



I really don't understand how this will help people "get their facts straight" as it clearly has a Left leaning slant. And that's something else I've never understood. People balk at Fox, and apparently The Huffington Post and whatever else is out there that gets labeled as "Right Wing Media" and yet, whenever something is presented in the other direction, it always has just as much, if not more, slant.

Citing a few Republican blurbs, two false and one "barely true" and I'm supposed to automatically say "oh hey, *these* guys are giving me the straight story"? I don't think so. They're clearly proponents of the bill. They *try* to present the facts, but then ruin it with their own counter-jab at the Right. Why for the love of Christ, would you not just present the facts as they are? I mean as a media and/or journalism outlet?


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## Origin (Dec 22, 2010)

orb451 said:


> Quoting this whole thing would kind of make me a dick, but basically the long-ass post



Completely agreed.


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## synrgy (Dec 22, 2010)

orb451 said:


> as it clearly has a Left leaning slant.
> 
> They're clearly proponents of the bill



I love you man, but you're really reaching here. Politifact has no 'slant'. They are a bipartisan organization. Their home page is keeping a fucking running tally of President Obama's promises kept/broken/etc, for crying out loud.

I have trouble accepting opinions of people who say NPR or Politifact are 'left leaning'. They present facts, plain and simple, and they call out both sides for bull shit more or less equally.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 22, 2010)

I don't like biased media one way or another. I denounce every single source.

However, we're not exactly rewarding illegals.


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## orb451 (Dec 22, 2010)

synrgy said:


> I love you man, but you're really reaching here. Politifact has no 'slant'. They are a bipartisan organization. Their home page is keeping a fucking running tally of President Obama's promises kept/broken/etc, for crying out loud.
> 
> I have trouble accepting opinions of people who say NPR or Politifact are 'left leaning'. They present facts, plain and simple, and they call out both sides for bull shit more or less equally.



I love you too boss, so don't take deep offense, I just call em' like I see em'. You know my biases are different than yours. Please keep in mind that I don't often listen to NPR so I'm not going to comment on them, nor have I. And as far as this site is concerned, I'm talking about this article, or its writer(s). I haven't checked out the rest of the site to see how fair, or unfairly balanced they are.

Read the article though, read it again, the first paragraph is statement of fact. The second, an opinion. Opponents are trying to "derail" it. What's to derail? Some people disagree with the act, are they not entitled to and are they not obligated to vote accordingly? Should they just go along with it because it's "right"? Opponents have their reasons for not wanting to see this act pass, and opponent opinion covers the spectrum. As do proponents, who feel that it is "right", "proper" "correct" or what have you. This issue is a matter of opinion. The Right shouldn't be pinning its arguments against it on numbers alone, but on principle. Just as the Left is pinning its argument on principle. 

Paragraphs three through seven are also more or less factual and without any spin. That's where the article should have stopped. They presented the facts, let them stand on their own. Instead, they opt for 3 paragraphs of spin, and why claims on the Right are "wrong". My point is, is it needed? In my opinion, no.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2010)

Non-pro-right = left


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## synrgy (Dec 22, 2010)

You raise fair points as always, but I'm gonna stick to my guns that Politifact is not slanted or 'left leaning'. I only mentioned NPR because the two organizations are loosely related and usually get the same baseless flak from the right-leaning folks I know.

Just for the record, I didn't post the link in response to anything you said; more as a buffer against the typical regurgitation of empty rhetoric. (Think "Government takeover" or "Death Panels"..)


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## orb451 (Dec 22, 2010)

synrgy said:


> Syn's comments



Gotcha man, no problem


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## cwhitey2 (Dec 22, 2010)

My opinion on this whole subject is based on the 'Act' they have in place now, the "Dream Act" is not even in effect right now.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 22, 2010)

willy petro said:


> I love you orb! You think exactly like me! Thanks for posting man!




Exactly. Orb has a knack for saying exactly what I think on the subject. I've already done all the ranting I care to do on illegal immigration, so I'll leave it to Orb to finish up here.


But I've read the link in syn's post, and if there is any bias in it, it's only very slight. I'd much rather read that than something in Fox news or whatever where the bias is so obvious that it's suffocating.


Still I'm opposed to this bill very much. If they really want education in the US, then please get a student visa to come to school here. Sign the guestbook on the way in, or gtfo. I see no racism, or anti-immigration in that, my grandparents migrated here from Canada and did everything they needed to do to be legal residents here. I'm just anti-ILLEGAL immigration. The laws we have in place regarding immigration are there to keep the natives and legal immigrants from losing their jobs and housing, and from local governments from becoming bankrupt trying to provide the same assistance for everyone. I'd like to think of them as floodgates.

However, if we start tinkering too much with the flood gates, we better start preparing for a flood.


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## RaceCar (Dec 22, 2010)

I agree with Orb and think the whole DREAM Act is beyond ridiculous. I'd like to see ANY other country where something like this would fly.


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## Randy (Dec 22, 2010)

Nothing says "greatest nation in the world" like judging what we're willing to do and not do based on the intolerance of other countries.


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## ST3MOCON (Dec 22, 2010)

bull shit! i seriously dont understand how an illegal can take advantage of our system. If youre going to "have" to give out free college education why not give it to Americans? even though anyone can go to college if you do the right paper work. our government needs to start worrying about its own citizens.


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## megano28 (Dec 22, 2010)

Just because they receive aid, doesn't mean they stole anything from you. Why wouldn't you want someone who can this place to get help? Just remember the difference between 'illegal' immigrants and normal "U.S citizen" is that one had they're great grandparents while the other didn't


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## synrgy (Dec 22, 2010)

I didn't intend for this to turn into a giant post, but it did, so I'm making the font size smaller to save space. I presume it'll only be read by a couple of you, anyway. 

For the TL;DR folks, my summation is in regular size font at the end. 

Let me begin by making it abundantly clear that I don't know enough about the bill's fine details to support or rally against it. The problem there is that a *lot* usually seems to get lost in translation or ignored completely when legislative law is presented in layperson's terms to the masses. Further, I have a slight personal bias given that I'm currently dating a Canadian, and there's no way for her to legally live with me and work in the States until or unless we marry each other.

When I think of any immigration issue in America, the very first idea that comes to mind is always the 'New Colossus' sonnet on the Statue of Liberty's plaque. I won't bore anyone with what it says as I'm sure you all know already.

Like most political/social issues, I think the problem is that our country's founding documents are open to wide interpretation, our laws are incredibly obtuse, and the very idea of what makes us US is organic.

I get the legal immigrant vs illegal immigrant debate. That's fine and good, save the small part that post 9/11 it's virtually impossible for most individuals to immigrate here. We don't _legally_ take the tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to be free. We only want doctors, scientists, diplomats and the like -- save the occasional spouse for good measure. Take a look at a handy flow chart:







If I can jab a loving elbow at Orb for a minute; I've seen you post about how Julian Assange and Bill Maher are hypocrites. Does it not make the United States a giant, National Hypocrite to have that sonnet inscribed on our Statue of Liberty, revere the Statue as a symbol of our National values, yet not provide the very people who meet the description in the sonnet a legal path to citizenship our country? 

Anyway, my problem is that the debate is usually too black and white for my taste. I do my best to see the World in an empathetic way. That's just my path. When I think of the people this theoretical bill is obviously intended to help, what I see are kids who were born here, have grown up in our system going to school with our kids, speaking our language, watching our TV shows, listening to our music and.. Well.. They're US. We're all they know. In this day and age, you can bet almost all of us who grew up in melting-pot cities and towns have had a good friend over the years who we never knew wasn't a legal citizen. This isn't at all addressed in 'legal' vs 'illegal'.

I realize this may pit me against some of you, but I think it's downright inhumane to take a person in that situation and just ship them off to a place they've likely never been. Truly consider yourselves in that situation for a moment.

When I think about how it would make me feel, I can't help but wonder: If we did what super-anti-illegal-immigration folks wanted to do which is just up and deport everybody first thing tomorrow, do you not think we'd be creating a sudden mass of people who not only have us on their shit-list but knew exactly where all our weak spots were if they wanted to 'do something' about their frustration? 

I mean, unless you guys haven't been paying attention to news from south of the border recently, let me be the first to tell you that mass quantities of guns, ammo, and other explosives are NOT difficult to come by. If the stories I've read (and the posts some of our members who live there have shared) are to be believed, the streets are practically littered with them. I'm not saying I expect Mexico to declare war on us or anything; what I'm saying is that in an era where we fear terrorist attacks, I think we should be weary of fucking over people who just want to live here peacefully with the rest of us.

Further, would we not be rather suddenly short a shockingly large portion of our work force and -- more importantly -- our economy at large? If they live here, they're buying shit here, and if there are *that* many of them here, then they're buying *that much* shit. (and no, I _don't_ think it's as simple as saying that current unemployed legal citizens would automatically be able to do all the jobs vacated by illegal immigrants, because life just isn't that simple.)

Moving on.. From what I understand, the bill is rather specifically targeted towards the types of kids I was just describing. It doesn't create any loopholes for the parents that brought them here, right? Might I also add that, as already pointed out earlier in the thread: THERE'S NO FREE RIDE for the kids whom the bill would provide some legal rights to, so all the cries of 'Why don't you make MY education free' are completely inapplicable. I mean, I'd love free college, but there's no legislation out there trying to give it to me or illegal immigrants, so in this discussion it's a moot point.

Anyway, I know I'm a rambler of a poster, so I'll just stop here. In summation: I'm not trying to make any grand stand; I'm just making the point that from where I sit, both sides of this particular issue are just as 'American' as the other. We're a funny country, that way.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 22, 2010)

megano28 said:


> *Just because they receive aid, doesn't mean they stole anything from you.* Why wouldn't you want someone who can this place to get help? Just remember the difference between 'illegal' immigrants and normal "U.S citizen" is that one had they're great grandparents while the other didn't



Sorry but I call bullshit on this one. That medical, welfare, free public education and what have you are all provided for by the taxpayers. If you pay taxes, they are stealing your money by making use of services that were intended for legal citizens and not them. I'd call that theft. 

I'd consider theft to be the taking of something that doesn't belong to you. Since the money was intended for use by US citizens, then I'd say that qualifies under the definition of theft.

"Well what if they paid taxes?" you decry......
"where did they get the money to do so?" I'd ask in turn.
If the answer is holding down a job (which is the only likely answer) well, then they not only somehow defrauded their employer (because most of them are registered with the Social Security Administration, and must enter your SS number upon accepting a job anywhere) but in effect took yet another job that a legal citizen (regardless of race) had the right to compete for. 

In effect, just to remain living here in the US, illegals have to break law after law to stay. What I don't understand is, why go through all that when you could at least be making a real attempt to gain legal status? I'm not saying it's a cakewalk system to do that, but it seems to me that you're gonna have to jump through a football field worth of hoops either way, so why not do it legally to begin with? 

Not only that, but I see the idea of illegal immigration as a slap in the face to those that worked their ass off to obtain legal status here.


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## orb451 (Dec 22, 2010)

@Syn, you're right, I do call foul over the two examples you gave (Assange & Maher) and to a degree, I can see why you'd think the US is a bit of hypocrite having the Statue of Liberty with the "...poor huddled masses" bit especially. But no, I don't see it that way, sorry 

The US isn't a hypocrite because what the Statue of Liberty and the "...Huddled Masses..." bit means to me is, you want to come to our country? There's the door. It's right over there. It's called Ellis Island. Want to come to America to live and prosper? That's your starting point. Get your asses through that door and you're welcome to join us.

Note also, that that entry-way hasn't been used for almost a century right? And the only wave of immigrants we've had in the last 30 years are Latinos. Sure, other ethnicities and whatnot have continued to come, but by and large, Latinos represent the *bulk* of our immigrants. 

And this is important to note, because it is so EASY for them to physically come to this country, as opposed to say The Irish, or Germans. Perhaps if the world were turned on its ear for a moment, and Ireland sat where Mexico now sits, and were under the same circumstances Mexico currently is (and has been) we'd have wave after wave of Irish immigrants coming here, sneaking across the border day and night.

The fact is, there's a huge divide between us and them financially. They have almost NO hope for a decent living or future in their country. Like I said earlier, I don't hold it against them that they want a better life. Nor do I hold it against them that they want to live among us and prosper. My problem is, the system is broken and the fix isn't an easy one. And so until the fix is enacted, shit like this DREAM act are pointless. It's just another way to reward bad behavior. 

"Come to our country! Please! Break the law whilst doing so, and if you *do* you'll be given a chance at a new life, employers who'll be happy to hire you for cheap labor, a welfare system that will take care of you and your kids, the ability for your kids to go to college and become citizens, provided they complete this list from A - Z, etc etc" How anyone could be FOR that, boggles my mind. I sympathize with them, I really do, and I empathize with their plight. But I honestly believe they ought NOT be rewarded or given breaks, perks or benefits that make it *easy* to break the law, nor any incentive *to* break the law. I don't want pats on the back, handshakes and warm cups of coffee for them. 

Millions, MILLIONS of people are standing in line, waiting their turn, paying through the nose, jumping through hoops already in place to GET into this country the LEGAL way. The RIGHT way. Why would you piss on their efforts by offering some kind of incentive for people to cut in line? If you *care* for people, than it should *mean* something when someone is trying as hard as they can to do the right thing. And it should mean something when someone else takes a raging shit on their efforts.

And can't you see that this is really *just* to curry favor with Latino voters? Like I said before, Dems got a taste of defeat a month ago, they *know* god damned good and well that they *need* a win in 2012. Be it the presidency the house or senate. You don't win an election by alienating a wide swath of voters. This is politics 101 people. How else can you view a bit of legislation with all these feel good sentiments attached to it, that aims to help so very few? Or rather, that will "end up" helping so very few?

That's my take on it anyway, YMMV


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## Explorer (Dec 22, 2010)

I just wanted to add something which isn't obvious to the younger folks here...

I remember when the US was doing all it could to destabilize certain governments with which it didn't agree in Latin America. Those same anti- or contra-goverment fighters were then aided by the US in setting up a brisk trade in cocaine, and given weapons as well. Remember the Iran-Contra thing? The narcotraffickers, as well as charming fellows like Osama Bin Ladin, got their start with help from the Reagan administration. 

Yes, things are terrible in Latin America.

Yes, things are terrible in Latin America, and many of the armed thugs who helped tear things down, and many of those who run the drug trades which make things so terrible, were set up by the US government.

I'm just pointing out that there is a reason things are crappy in these people's home countries, and US interference is one big fat reason why they are looking for a better place.


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## orb451 (Dec 22, 2010)

Explorer said:


> Explorer's take on things



First, how old are you? I'm just wondering, not asking in a snarky way.

Second, are you trying to say that it's the US government's fault that Mexico as the prime example, has so many issues with drug cartels, corruption, violence and poverty?

Again, not trying to be snarky because I know things between us can get easily heated, I'm trying to understand what you're saying.


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## megano28 (Dec 23, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> Sorry but I call bullshit on this one. That medical, welfare, free public education and what have you are all provided for by the taxpayers. If you pay taxes, they are stealing your money by making use of services that were intended for legal citizens and not them. I'd call that theft.
> 
> I'd consider theft to be the taking of something that doesn't belong to you. Since the money was intended for use by US citizens, then I'd say that qualifies under the definition of theft.
> 
> ...


 
I speak from experience when I talk about these immigrants as I have lived around them for a very long time...

Most illegal immigrants I know don't have medicare or welfare, as they are fearful of being deported or simply are ignorant. when it comes to public transportation, some do, but are they really exploiting a service that benefits from mass transportation?

I call bull on this, many of them have to take horrible, low paying jobs because the employers know that they're illegal and because of that they offer crappier jobs. They might 'trick' the employer, but the are being just as exploited. You don't believe me? I've talked to many people who have told me that they've taken the midnight shift cleaning offices(or similar jobs) at $4 an hour...find me 100 US Citizens who wants that job and I'll take my argument back. The truth is that this country relies on illegal labor/manufactoring/cultivation. If every job was occupied by a legal citizen then they would all demand higher wages which would in turn raise the prices of the products they worked on. The produce you buy at the store was most likely picked by an illegal, had it not, the price would probably be double or triple to say the least. It's easy to say that they steal jobs, but if they just vacated completely, no one would want those jobs as we americans have too much pride sometimes.

The problem is that you are so focused on calling them thieves you can't even see the thieves that grew up here on our own soil. Out of everyone I know only one person is on welfare/medicare/food stamps and surprisingly it is my African American neighbor. He doesn't have a job, he's a drug dealer...yet he has a flat screen tv in his living room as well as a PS3 and the newest edition of Call of Duty. Isn't he a thief as well? But he's legal so it's alright, right? 

You don't understand why they don't want to wait in line? let me explain it to you in the simplest way I can...Mexico's average wage ~ 250 pesos a day if they're lucky...In the US, that's about 25 bucks, you could easily make that in 2-3 hours work. But that's theft right, they're stealing from us US citzens...what would you do if you saw the opportunity to feed your family something better than the piece of shit scraps they're getting on a daily basis? Now they could wait for all the paperwork to get fixed, but have you considered the price for becoming a lega resident and then a US citizen? both those costs combined range in the ~$1700-2000 zone, in pesos it's roughly 17,000-20,000...how the hell does someone making 25 pesos a day earn enough to go through all that?

Trust me when I say someone who has become a legal immigrant bares almost no animosity towards an illegal, my parents went through the right processes and not once have they felt offended by an illegal immigrant, they understand the struggles they go through as they were once their struggles.

Now you must understand that I am not saying to bring in every illegal possible(I cringe every time I use that word). I am for deporting the scum that make up a small portion of the population, we should punish the bad and reward the good. But when it comes to the Dream Act, aren't we only bringing in the eilte, the crème de la crème? I would understand the outrage if we handed out aid to anyone, but this country must remain competitive in order to remain powerful. I don't see the point in snubbing someone based on the fact that they are not from this land. I'd much rather bring in 2 extremely gifted aliens and try to nationalize them ASAP, then two average citizens and take them for what they are, but that's just me.

What I wonder is, how did this contry become so callous?


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## IDLE (Dec 23, 2010)

Immigration: Harvard alumnus scrambling to avoid being deported - latimes.com


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## willy petro (Dec 23, 2010)

Alright yeah so latinos settle for low paying jobs. So what? Its their choice. Even with those $4 paying jobs. They still have a better life then what they had in their home country. Its sickening trying to see someone argue about how they deserve rights in OUR country. Why just tell me why they should get anything... Anything at all? They deserve nothing. They're nothing but leeches. Sucking off of what Americans worked for. Taxes that have been built up over the years. Why should immigrants who are here illegally receive anything from me. In my eyes they deserve nothing of mine or any other Americans. I mean i feel for the people how they want a better life and everything. But come on. Become an actual US citizen and experience America at its finest. I hate when people try to tell me latinos or any other immigrant deserve more money. Fuck that! Don't get me wrong here... I'm no racist or anything. I have no problem with immigrants taking the time and become citizens like my grandparents did and many other Americans. Have some honor... Sorry if i rambeled i was quite aggravated.


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## Randy (Dec 23, 2010)

You don't have illegal workers without illegal employers.


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## willy petro (Dec 23, 2010)

Randy said:


> You don't have illegal workers without illegal employers.



Exactly. And the what 10% of our nation currently unemployed had no chance at these jobs did they. It doesn't matter if they didn't want them or not. They had no chance when cheap labor is staring the employer in the face. There needs to be stricter rules for immigrants if caught. Also for employers who disobey. Simple as that. We as Americans need a bigger deterrent for illegal immigrants.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 23, 2010)

What most of us are failing to realize is that illegal immigrants have to get their college funds through private loans, which means somebody is deciding to give it to them - their education isn't coming out of our pockets anymore than the construction of the Taco Bell down the street is.


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## Randy (Dec 23, 2010)

Adam, this might passively sound like an insult, but that's one of the smartest things I've ever heard you say. 

Seriously though. +1


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## megano28 (Dec 23, 2010)

willy petro said:


> Alright yeah so latinos settle for low paying jobs. So what? Its their choice. Even with those $4 paying jobs. They still have a better life then what they had in their home country. Its sickening trying to see someone argue about how they deserve rights in OUR country. Why just tell me why they should get anything... Anything at all? They deserve nothing. They're nothing but leeches. Sucking off of what Americans worked for. Taxes that have been built up over the years. Why should immigrants who are here illegally receive anything from me. In my eyes they deserve nothing of mine or any other Americans. I mean i feel for the people how they want a better life and everything. But come on. Become an actual US citizen and experience America at its finest. I hate when people try to tell me latinos or any other immigrant deserve more money. Fuck that! Don't get me wrong here... I'm no racist or anything. I have no problem with immigrants taking the time and become citizens like my grandparents did and many other Americans. Have some honor... Sorry if i rambeled i was quite aggravated.


 
if you're directing that at me, you misinterpretted my post entirely

you asked a question: "Why just tell me why they should get anything... Anything at all?"

My answer is simple: They are human, you aren't worth jackshit more than they are....you think in 100 years people will give a shit whether you were here "legally"(that basically means you got here before all these bullshit laws got put into place) or not? We are all equals six feet in the ground.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 23, 2010)

megano28 said:


> My answer is simple: They are human, you aren't worth jackshit more than they are....you think in 100 years people will give a shit whether you were here "legally"(that basically means you got here before all these bullshit laws got put into place) or not? We are all equals six feet in the ground.



/thread

My sentiments exactly. If somebody feels differently, they need to grow up.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 23, 2010)

How would you like it if you were born in a relatively shitty country to a shitty family and the only way you could live a better life was to sneak into a different country? You wouldn't be toting the "fuck the illegals" banner then, _would you?_ Getting an education is really important, so giving them one will allow them to get a good job and help the country and all of that shit, it doesn't matter if he's illegal. At one point that person won't be illegal anymore if they contribute to the country.

But no, I don't think illegal immigrants should have free education. I think _all_ people should have free education, but that's just me.


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## scottro202 (Dec 23, 2010)

Wouldn't this all be much, much, much, MUCH simpler if it was easier to become a U.S. citizen legally?

/little knowledge on immigration/citizenship as a whole


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## willy petro (Dec 23, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> How would you like it if you were born in a relatively shitty country to a shitty family and the only way you could live a better life was to sneak into a different country? You wouldn't be toting the "fuck the illegals" banner then, _would you?_ Getting an education is really important, so giving them one will allow them to get a good job and help the country and all of that shit, it doesn't matter if he's illegal. At one point that person won't be illegal anymore if they contribute to the country.
> 
> But no, I don't think illegal immigrants should have free education. I think _all_ people should have free education, but that's just me.



i can Guarantee you i would not sneak into another country. Id come here legally. But i understand why the come here. I completly agree it should be easier for people to become citizens. It just jerks my chain sometimes. And a free education would be great. But then many many things would change. Thanks for posting man!


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## willy petro (Dec 23, 2010)

megano28 said:


> if you're directing that at me, you misinterpretted my post entirely
> 
> you asked a question: "Why just tell me why they should get anything... Anything at all?"
> 
> My answer is simple: They are human, you aren't worth jackshit more than they are....you think in 100 years people will give a shit whether you were here "legally"(that basically means you got here before all these bullshit laws got put into place) or not? We are all equals six feet in the ground.



It wasn't directed at anyone man. Sorry if it came off that way. I was just kinda ranting. I get what your saying. And everyones opinion is different. And id love a world without corruption and bull shit laws. But at this point in time where all trying to get to the top. If it was up to me id go out in the woods and never come back. Thanks for posting man. I appreciate your views.


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## willy petro (Dec 23, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> /thread
> 
> My sentiments exactly. If somebody feels differently, they need to grow up.



Yeah, I get what your saying. I just go off sometimes without thinking haha. I wish life was more simple. Thanks for posting man!


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## Sang-Drax (Dec 24, 2010)

Explorer said:


> I'm just pointing out that there is a reason things are crappy in these people's home countries, and US interference is one big fat reason why they are looking for a better place.



FWIW, the military dictatorships that raised in many countries in South America (at least Brazil, Chile, and Argentina) were all funded/supported by US in some way, as an attempt to further influence us away from comunism. These governments were utter crap and played a good role on our current corrupted and fucked-up system, as they lasted a long time ('64-'88 in Brazil, for instance).


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## The Reverend (Dec 24, 2010)

An illegal alien who's pursuing a college education is a good thing. They're not gonna go back to their country of origin with that Masters of Applied Sciences. They're gonna stay here, start businesses, work in a cubicle, strengthen our economy, etc.

And yes, send money to their families overseas/over the Rio Grande .

Illegal alien with a Ph.D > me, the son of an African immigrant and natural citizen who dropped out of high school.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 24, 2010)

Glad to see some logic and morals being used around here.


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## Mexi (Dec 29, 2010)

yeah nevermind the fact that so many central american countries are fucked b/c of crippling economic policies set up by the US and the IMF AND all those brutal dictatorships that were financed or supported by American interests. So the people coming from these countries are not only victims of decades of oppression, but even when they are willing to die for the country that crippled their own homelands, they're still hated and spat on by "hardworking, honest Americans". seriously, how can anyone hold any ill will towards people that are willing to die for you BECAUSE THEY DONT HAVE DOCUMENTATION, seriously, this is the culmination of the fucked up, selfish society we live in right now


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## tacotiklah (Jan 2, 2011)

megano28 said:


> I speak from experience when I talk about these immigrants as I have lived around them for a very long time...
> 
> Most illegal immigrants I know don't have medicare or welfare, as they are fearful of being deported or simply are ignorant. when it comes to public transportation, some do, but are they really exploiting a service that benefits from mass transportation?
> 
> ...




Well the first thing I can answer is the number of people that would take that $4/hour job at the moment (though the number would probably be significantly less because $4/hour is almost impossible to live off of in california)
California unemployment rate (according to this site: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/laus.nr0.htm):
12.4%
California Population (according to wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California):
37,253,956


so my handy computer calculator shows that we have a projection of roughly
4,123,491 people that sure could use a job right now (including me). Altruism doesn't fly when people that are legal citizens STILL can't find work. Just a guess, but I'd say that's more than 100 people. 

Now let's just take a gander at your run of the mill college attendance for 2010 for california. This was a report on community college attendance for 2010 (source = http://www.communitycollegereview.com/articles/223 ) :


> Lack of Resources, Not Lack of Demand
> 
> The short answer to the question of why enrollment at California community colleges dropped this year is lack of resources. As the Silicon Valley Mercury News reports, California&#8217;s community college system has faced an 8 percent budget cut during the 2009-10 year. In his announcement to reporters, Scott said that budget cuts have forced community colleges to reduce course offerings and to turn away some students.
> 
> ...



What would you do for those 4,123,491 unemployed legal citizens? Let them continue to starve/live off of unemployment while you hand out what few job and college opportunities there are to people that just randomly walk in here, because it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside? I'd love to at least go back to school (never mind find some sort of job), but can't because the state is having a severe budget crisis and every course I try to take is closed within 1 hour of registration being open. My point there is that it is ALREADY impossible for people THAT LEGALLY LIVE HERE to go to school or find a job. People are broke, have almost no opportunities, but hey let's go ahead and trample on them further to help somebody that broke the law to begin with. 


That's my next point. By default, if you don't register with INS you are breaking the law to be here. Committing a crime makes you a criminal. So if you're an illegal immigrant, you are a criminal by default. The argument of "good illegals vs. illegal illegals" doesn't fly with me because even if you're the most awesome person ever, if you don't register with INS then you've already proven that you can't abide by this country's laws. 

Next, I bare resentment because my grandparents immigrated from Alberta, Canada and went through hell to do it, but managed BECAUSE IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!!!! They busted their ass to pony up the cash for it (my grandfather worked his ass off doing things like mowing lawns, doing handyman work and whatnot), and 60 some-odd years later we're now gonna hand out freebies to people that don't at least TRY to follow the rules like everybody else has to. I see that as a genuine slap in the face to my grandfather that had to do the shittiest jobs imaginable to pay the INS for the fees and paperwork to become a legal US citizen.

Callous or not, when I'm finding it extremely hard just to eat and get by myself, I'm less likely to be all nice and friendly to people that refuse to even follow basic rules.


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## GalacticDeath (Jan 7, 2011)

orb451 said:


> This contrast is not a slight on them, just an observation. If that means I'm a racist, oh fucking well. So with this disparity, I'm not at all surprised that Mexicans are leaving their country en mass to come here for better opportunities. I only take issue with treating them *better* than our own citizens.
> They are here _illegally_. The proponents simply argue that they have no choice in the matter. That they are the _victims_. Thus, they should be REWARDED for breaking the law, or they should be rewarded because their parents broke the law. That's just laughable to me. Flat out laughable .


How exactly would they be "rewarded" and "treated better" than U.S. citizens? Like other people have pointed out, they won't actually be getting a free college education. Since they aren't citizens or legal residents that means no government loans or grants. The only kind of financial aid they might find are from private loans and scholarships, so most of them are going to have to pay out of their pockets. I fail to see how they would be treated "better" than us.


orb451 said:


> 65,000 illegal immigrant students graduate each year. 65,000? That's pathetic. And of those, again, going by Wiki's numbers, 7,000-13,000 are able to fulfill the obligations if this was enacted? We're passing this bill to help a few thousand people? Really? No. They're trying to pass this bill in 2012 because it's an election year and the Democrats know that Latinos will flock to them like moths to a flame if they make their rounds, shaking hands and acting as though they're on the side of illegal immigrants.


Yeah dude, that's kind of the point. The bill is meant to open a small window of opportunity for the illegals that wish to pursue a higher education. I don't think anyone is expecting more than a few thousand to benefit from this. Especially since most illegals are struggling financially and can't apply for FAFSA. The idea is that a selected few will actually go through the whole process and end up with a decent education, so they can help build our economy. Or better yet, maybe they will go back to their own countries and help their economies over there.

You're saying politicians are trying to use this bill as a means to attract Latino voters? The same thing can be said about any other bill. Gay marriage bills draw gay voters and legalization of marijuana bills draw marijuana smoking voters. What's your point?


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