# Sevenstring.org Get in Shape contest - starting today, June 25th!



## Drew

Chris said:


> Two sites that I check out often had a 6 month "biggest loser" contest, to see which members could drop the most weight/get in better shape over a 6 month period.
> 
> You'd have to be comfortable with posting up pics of yourself at the start/finish, and ideally each month hopefully to inspire you/keep you motivated. I put on about 20lbs this winter from sitting at a desk, drinking dark beer and not getting out enough and summertime is a perfect time to get back into shape.
> 
> The basic rules would be something along the lines of $5 per person (paypaled to me) to enter, and I'd hold the funds as a kitty. At the end of it, the members can vote on who the biggest loser is and that person gets the cash.  It wouldn't be really a "Get ripped" contest, more of a just get healthy deal. Dudes who are big overweight can lose pounds, average people can cut up, etc, etc.
> 
> That said - who'd be in? I know Bobby will be because he loves taking pics of himself without a shirt on.  Also, any flaming by anyone in ANY threads, or using any of the pics for OT bullshit will be immediatley banned, so keep that in mind.
> 
> Nutshell: It's a "most improved" type of thing. Lose some pounds, put on some muscle, tone up, whatever.



Ok, since DelfinoPie decided today was as good a day to start as any, and I kind of agree with him, what the hell, let's get this rolling. 

I'll post up weight, measurements, and a pic tonight. For now, any of you fuckers with a scale and a camera (optional) lying around, get to work! 

Let's not worry about the cash for now, health is it's own benefit but if we want we can sort something out down the road. Likewise, let's get the ball rolling for now and then decide on an end date. 



EDIT - copied his post in; ignore the fact it's before mine, the system does this chronologically.


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## DelfinoPie

Right so I hit 12stone today (168lbs) so I'm just going to start with this because this is the fattest I've been in a year.

I am starting *25th of June 2008* and will be finishing on lol *25th of December 2008*

(If I'm correct thats 6 months so I end on Christmas Day )

Measurements and shiiat:

Height: 5ft 11inches.
Weight: 168lbs
Chest: 44 inches
Waist: 34 inches


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## Makelele

Like I said in the other thread I'm still looking to put on some muscle, but not too much, as I'm already quite happy with how I look.

I'm 182 cm (5'11") tall and weigh about 82 kg (180 lbs), and looking to weigh about 85-90 kg (187-198 lbs). Not more than that though, as I don't really want to be huge. 90 kg is already maybe a bit too big - I'd probably look like a blond version of John Petrucci then. 

85 kg might be just right.


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## canuck brian

I'm currently sitting at 186 at 5'9 and it's mostly fat. I'd like to be down at least one waist size and around 175-177 with more muscle mass. I get pics tonight of my muffin top.

Waist - 36
Height- 5'9
Weight- 186.


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## YYZ2112

I'm currently 190 at 6'-2" with a 34" waist. My mid section needs to be worked on. I'll post pics if that becomes the trend. 

My goal is to be _back_ at 175-180 and fit into my dress clothes for work that feel very snug at the moment.


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## FortePenance

Ah, excellent I just went to the gym today.







*Start Date:* 25th June
*End Date:* Christmas Day

*Height:* 6ft
*Weight:*61kg (134.2lb)
*BMI:* 18.2 (0.3 underweight)
*Percent Body Fat:* 11.6%

*Goals:* 70kg in 6 months. Better pectorial/arm/abs definition. I'm flexing my abs in that pic, usually they don't show.  Make ribcage non-visible. >_>

*Plan:* Gym thrice a week doing weightlifting mostly. No intense cardio for me but I do plan on honing up my football skills.

*Diet:* Not sure yet, but I need more protein. No supplements though.


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## Labrie

FortePenance said:


> No supplements though.



Goodluck with that. Putting on lean muscle with a body type such as yours is a never ending battle. Unless you can afford to eat 100+ grams of protein every single day along with a few thousand calories, you're going to need a good protein, weight gainer and creatine supplement. Trust me, I've been there.

I'm pretty pleased with my body these days but I'm still looking to gain another 5-10 pounds. I used to be around 6ft and 145-150lbs. Now I'm hovering around 170lbs due to intensive training 5 days a week plus my diet.

If there is any advice I'd give to thinner people trying to gain muscle...make sure you're extremely self disciplined. Like I said before, it's a constant battle to gain and even maintain your weight, it just isn't in your genes.

I've seen many friends try to gain but they never keep at it and after a couple weeks, when they haven't made any progress, they lose interest. You have to force yourself to work out hard and work out consistently and then the rewards will come.

Good luck to everyone!


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## thadood

Hah! What a coincidence! I was about to post a thread in here saying that over the last few days, I've started working out and dieting. I don't really have a lot to add to this, but I can post what I'm doing, and my current stats.

Every night, I've been using an elliptical and doing low weight/high repetition weight lifting. I started all of this on Monday, where I could barely do 3 minutes straight on our elliptical machine. Tonight, I did 10 minutes without any stopping. It wasn't that I couldn't keep doing it, it was that my legs were so out of shape that I couldn't keep them going. I'm just now starting to hit the point where it actually starts making me breathe like I'm really working out.

With the weights, I've been doing mostly standard bench press, military press, etc. Starting light, at around 75lb total, doing 15 or so at a time, upwards of 10 times. I've also been working the forearms with preacher curls, holding the bar both up and down.

On top of that, I started loosely following weight watchers on Monday, as well. I'm not in the program, but my parents have all the information about it, so I know my target points and how to calculate what I'm eating. I've got the max points alloted (which is something like 44), but I can hardly get myself up to 30 with what I eat!

And for some statistics:
Age: 23
Height: 6'5"
Weight: 375lb (best guess.. doctor/hospital scales stop at 350)

I'm hoping to lose ~75-100lb. I think I'd look a bit too small at 250, due to my height and frame. As it stands now, a majority of the pain associated with working out is gone. My legs are still a little sore from the elliptical machine, as well as my shoulders/upper pecs, but it's not enough to cause me to not want to work out. It REALLY helps that my band mates and a few other friends are dead set on getting in shape. They come over to my house every night and we all motivate eachother.


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## jaxadam

DelfinoPie said:


> Height: 5ft 11inches.
> Weight: 168lbs
> Chest: 44 inches
> Waist: 34 inches



5'11" and 168 and you think you're fat?


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## Jason

I'm sitting right around 200 5'9" and 18% bodyfat. I'll get pics when I can.


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## B Lopez

5'10"
~190lbs

Lets see if I can hit 200 by then


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## jaxadam

B Lopez said:


> 5'10"
> ~190lbs
> 
> Lets see if I can hit 200 by then
> 
> I'll take glorious pics soon enough.



Yeah, I'm floating at 5'11" and 3/4" (let's not forget the 3/4") and about 196 right now. I usually like to go up to 205, but 188-189 is my ideal weight.



Popsyche said:


> OK, It's all rabbit food for you at Jemfest!



I'll even buy breakfast this time!

Can't believe we walked right past you last time at Denny's (or whatever it was)... Too much chaos at the kiddie entertainment capital of the world!


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## Mr. S

Glad this is getting rolling now actually, maybe it'll help me give up smoking (again) and exercising a bit more often than i have been of late 

6'1"
and about ~170lbs

wow, I've actually lost a fair bit of weight but I dare say that its mostly muscle as my previous job was rather physical where as now I just do office work and I'm definitely a lot 'spongier' around the mid section... so to speak  , should probably get me some new running shoes and dust off the weights


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## Chris

Sticked and cleaned of junk posts. 

*Keep this thread on topic.*

I'm in as of tomorrow, I don't have anything to measure with in my hotel.


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## Drew

Ok, stats and shit.

Height - 6'
weight - 195 (heaviest of my life :/)
waist at hips - 37" (yikes, I'veen buying 34's only since I stopped fitting into 33's - I'm more slovenly than I thought)
stomache at most rotund point - 38.5"
arms (flexed) - a measley 14"
chest - 38"

Since the only picture posted thus far is by someone who, relatively speaking, is a beanpole, I think I'll hold for nwo.  Time to go buy a road bike!


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## metalfiend666

As I finally bought some scales yesterday, I'm in.

Height: 5' 10"
Weight: 13st (182lb)
Stomach: 39"
Waist: 32"

I know it's bizarre, I just have a big overhang. I have approx zero muscle on me, so I really am a flabby guy. I'm ultimately aiming to get to 10st 5lb (145lb) which was the weight I was happiest at, and I last saw around 2003. I doubt I'll get all the way there by Christmas, but to be honest I'll be happy if I can get below 12st (168lb).

FWIW, my heaviest ever was 14st 7lb (203lb) when I was 18. I don't want to end up back there again, which I'm seriously in danger of doing. In the 8 months since I moved into my own place I've put on around a pound per month.


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## El Caco

I normally weigh myself first thing in the morning but I forgot until after I ate breakfast this morning, I've also been pretty slack lately due to travel and stress but I'm sorting that out now.

Height: 172 cm / 5' 8"
Weight: 67.2 KG / 148 lb. 
Percent body fat: 10.7%


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## budda

man, all you guys are skinny.

i dont have measurements for chest and waist, but my size 38 pants are too a size or two too big, my belt is getting easier to put on at the last hole.. i need a new set of clothes lol, its all too big. even my "tight" shirt has a bit of hang to it now..

fyi, im barrel-chested (runs in the family), 5'11 abouts and 211 lbs. so all you 190 whiners, STFU!

I'm gonna buy some bike parts and get the ole heart rate up more often. getting your heart rate up, 3 hours a week, within a month you will notice a loss in weight  - w00t health class


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## El Caco

budda said:


> man, all you guys are skinny.



Yeah but I've already lost over 10 kg, have a look at my sig, I started my diet 25/5/08.

I'm going to continue until I am happy with my abs definition, then depending on my weight I might try to develop some shape in my pecs, but I don't want too much more muscle as I like the light weight for surfing.


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## Mr. S

Brought some proper running shoes today, breaking em in tomorrow morning  good thing too I've been drinking a fair bit recently and doing very little exercise, It'll be good to get moving on this properly now.


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## B Lopez

Mr. S said:


> Brought some proper running shoes today, breaking em in tomorrow morning  good thing too I've been drinking a fair bit recently and doing very little exercise, It'll be good to get moving on this properly now.



Your feet will hate you for that 
Wear them around the house a little bit tonight.


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## FortePenance

Labrie said:


> Goodluck with that. Putting on lean muscle with a body type such as yours is a never ending battle. Unless you can afford to eat 100+ grams of protein every single day along with a few thousand calories, you're going to need a good protein, weight gainer and creatine supplement. Trust me, I've been there.



My mom doesn't approve of me taking whey.


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## thadood

I'm one week into my excerise/diet routine, and though I've probably lost a pound or two (scales in the house don't support my weight), I feel real good. I've gotten over the hard part of working out, and now I look forward to doing it. On the elliptical machine, I've gone from only being able to do 4 or so minutes up to doing one of the full 20 minute workouts on the machine, as of last night. I felt like I could do a bi tmore, too, so I may shoot for another minute or two on top of the 20 tonight, then go to one of the 30 minute programs!

Actually, I was pretty much a beast lastnight. I didn't want to stop working out, lol. It just felt good.


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## Groff

I just got back from Vacation, is it okay if I start a little late?


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## Mr. S

B Lopez said:


> Your feet will hate you for that
> Wear them around the house a little bit tonight.



 yeah don't worry I did, they weren't too bad, my legs were after the run though... I hadn't been running for ages before yesterday and it showed!


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## 7 Strings of Hate

budda said:


> man, all you guys are skinny.
> 
> i dont have measurements for chest and waist, but my size 38 pants are too a size or two too big, my belt is getting easier to put on at the last hole.. i need a new set of clothes lol, its all too big. even my "tight" shirt has a bit of hang to it now..
> 
> fyi, im barrel-chested (runs in the family), 5'11 abouts and 211 lbs. so all you 190 whiners, STFU!
> 
> I'm gonna buy some bike parts and get the ole heart rate up more often. getting your heart rate up, 3 hours a week, within a month you will notice a loss in weight  - w00t health class



amen i'm 6' and 265 lbs, i'm a little pudgy, but i just have a big frame and wide shoulders, i too wear 38's in pants. I cant believe how skinny some of you guys are


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## Chris

As of 7/1:

Height: 5'11
Weight: 209
Waist: 37"


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## Drew

Ok, so what's everyone's plan? I'm aiming to do the following: 


eat more or less the same diet I do now (which is relatively healthy), but not overeat when I go out (American restaurants = massive portion sizes)or when I'm drunk (I'm totally prone to the beer munchies). I eat a ton of carbs, fuck all ya'll Atkins types. 
cut out the mid-week boozing; we go out to a bar every monday to watch these two bands play, but I'll plan on limiting Tuesday-Thursday drinking to the occasional special occasion.
get a LOT more excersize - I've started road biking in earnest now that I have a kickass road bike, and I'm back on a pushup/situp regime.
quit my job and find one that sucks less. They say stress and lack of sleep inhibits your body's ability to not put on fat, and I've got loads of both right now.

I'm not going to set a "I fail unless I lose..." weight target, but I figure getting back under 180 shouldn't be unattainable, and ideally I'd like to put myself back into the 165-175 range from my college days. Then again, I was pretty scrawny back then, so if I put on any muscle from pushups that may not be attainable. 

EDIT - the only dietary change I'll make, I think, is trying to cut down on my fat intake a bit. Leaner cuts of meat, not getting pepperoni pizza for lunch four days out of five, etc.


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## YYZ2112

I haven't forged a plan for myself as of yet but I guess the first essential part would be for me to get my ass back to the gym. I stay pretty active but I need to work on my abs and get back to jogging on the tread mill. I used to do 3 miles a day and I really felt better back then. 

I also need to start eating better. My eating habits are probably a big part of the problem for me. I'll go all day without eating and then come home and over eat. I notice when I'm really involved with something whether it be recording or working on the house I forget to eat and I just keep going.


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## YYZ2112

k... so I've lost 50 pounds in the last few days.










 
Serioulsy I have no idea where I'm at right now as I haven't weighed myself since last week and I'm pretty sure I haven't lost anything. 

Anyone having any sucess yet? I would to love hear some stories from the ones who are _not_ already thin (bastards ).


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## Drew

Um, it's been five days.  I might have lost a few pounds (I think I'm a little on the 190 side of the little 195 mini-line on my scale, whereas previously I was more towards the 200), but nothing major.


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## YYZ2112

It's only been five days?


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## canuck brian

Went back to the gym for the first time in quite some time yesterday. I hurt. A lot. I'll be hopefully going back in again tomorrow.


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## metalfiend666

I've actually made quite a radical change to my eating habits already. I've cut out virtually all the chocolate, crisps and snacks I used to have and I'm now eating 3 pieces of fruit and having a glass of orange juice every day. I'm going to really make an effort to exercise as well. All I do at the moment is walk to work, and that's only a little over a mile.


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## FortePenance

Football practices are really dicking around with my weightlifting routine.  I didn't go to the gym the last 2 days so tomorrow, I will crush myself.


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## DelfinoPie

metalfiend666 said:


> I've actually made quite a radical change to my eating habits already. I've cut out virtually all the chocolate, crisps and snacks I used to have and I'm now eating 3 pieces of fruit and having a glass of orange juice every day. I'm going to really make an effort to exercise as well. All I do at the moment is walk to work, and that's only a little over a mile.



I walk around 10 miles whilst at work on a moderately busy day 

Really gonna' step it up a bit this week and get back into lifting weights and gonna' either part exchange my old bike or just buy a new one


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## TomAwesome

As of today, I'm 220lbs even, which is surprising, because I've somehow lost a few pounds (about 3 or 4) since I stopped exercising several weeks ago. I'm not complaining, though. Do we have any official rules/conditions/whatever? I can get additional measurements if needed. I also have some pictures, but as they're far from flattering, I'd rather not post them unless other people are going to, too.


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## budda

I dunno what i was when i started, but im hovering at around 212. i bet i'll weigh more like 210 today because i've barely eaten. gonna remedy that soon lol.

i walk all day for work, gotta up the level of biking and try to eat a little better!

and hit the gym w/ my buddy at some point. yeah, not much of a plan i know..


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## El Caco

I decided this morning that my goal is to lose about 1.56 kg more fat and put on 1.26 kg of muscle.

That makes my final goal 66.6 KG with 8% body fat 

My goal was always mid 60's with 8% but I realised when I weighed myself this morning that I will be 66.6 in the next few days and thought it would be funny  to make that my final goal.


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## Variant

Well, I can't say I'm necessarily jumping on board with this 'contest' thing, but ever since my cancer scare a few months back (which, thankfully, thankfully, thankfully turned out as benign! ), in conjunction with my doctor reporting my having high cholesterol , has got me on a much upgraded workout plan... part of which is simply consistent cardio to combat the cholesterol issues, the other part being a weight lifting regimen to build muscle mass, which would have been a *good thing* if surgery/chemo was in my near future. Even in light of the good news, I think at 31 years old, I'm going to stick to both the cardio and weight training side of things as health has taken a back seat to other facets of my life, partially due to being blessed with a metabolism that keeps me slim without _*any*_ working out, but falls safely away from hyperthyroidism. Ive also adjusted my diet to a good extent, though while not bad before, its a lot better now. Ive eliminated red meat almost entirely.

Mainly my goals are to reduce my chlerestoral (obviously) and improve cardiovascular health and physical endurance altogether, as well as adding a good bit of muscle mass and definition simply to be healthier and stronger, *not* so I can have a shirtless MySpace pic for gay dudes to beat off to.  As for relvant stats here, my LDL is borderline high at 148, and both my protein and sodium levels were a touch high. My personal stats are 5-9.25 and 135 lbs. (when I first went to the doctor a couple of months ago), so Im within the low side of my BMI at 19.8. Im going to try and get a scale over the next few weeks so I can track my progress so far a building muscle mass goes. My current exercise regimen consists of six to seven days a week, cardio 4-5 days, and weight training 2-3 days. I _*WAS*_ doing cardio everyday and combining it with the lifting on those days, but it would wear me out to the point where I couldnt get though my sets so dedicated days for each type of exercise are a better solution for me. Cardio is a simple 35 min. or so on the stationary bike, medium impact. Enough to get the heart rate up for the duration, but not so much strain that it counteracts my weight training. I backed down the resistance on the bike, because I think I was overdoing it at bit at first. 

Weight training has been a bit tougher  Ive got the strength, I just cant seem to get routine down to be effective so far as the visual results are concerned. Initially, I think I got a bad routine recommendation, with too many reps, and not enough sets. I was doing 10-13 reps for 3 sets now I switched to 6-8 reps for 4 sets, pushing about 20% more weight. Also, Im resting more between exercises which allows more strength to rebuild to make the next exercise work. If youre getting your cardio elsewhere, rushing to the next exercise to keep your heart rate up isnt necessary.  In any case, while Ive seen a little bit of muscle definition come out of it, I cant see where any good mass is getting put on. I guess well see how the adjusted plan works for me. Any suggestions would be kindly appreciated. 

Good luck to all the rest of you in your respective get-in-shape endeavors!


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## El Caco

As far as gaining size goes more reps, more sets with less weight (still the max weight you can lift to finish 80% of your last set, if you can finish your last set before you fatigue add more weight next session) and a good rest between sets is the way to go. You build size when you are resting, when you train you are tearing you fibres, when you rest your body repairs these stronger. Less reps with more weight typically increases density and strength not size however it will still increase size when combined with a good diet and rest periods.

If you wish to burn fat and or increase muscle size as well as improve your health your diet should be your main focus, their is no need to start popping pills or take supplements (although almost everyone will recommend a good multivitamin and fish oil). You will need to make sure your diet has enough protein to support growth and enough energy to support your training. All your macro-nutrients provide energy (proteins, carbs, fats) but it is important to make sure you are getting quality (lean meats, good fats, wholegrains, fibre etc.). 

To burn fat you need to eat less then your daily requirement of calories to burn fat without starving yourself, there is a limit to how fast your body will burn it's own fat deposits so eating less does not mean that you will burn more fat, your body will just consume soft tissue to make up the difference. This will cause lethargy and you will lose strength and not be able to train at your peak as well as many other side effect including depression and other mental disorders.

If you simply continue to eat under your caloric requirement your body will start to try to achieve homeostasis by burning soft tissue anyway (some call this starvation mode or refer to it as your metabolism slowing down). The way to prevent this is by zig zagging your calorie intake or having a free day where you eat more calories.

No one likes counting calories but there are two ways around this, the first is to find a site with meals that have their calorie content already worked out, this way you just add the meals together to get a daily figure, if you have a Mac there is now an app where you can click the food you eat and the app will work out your calorie intake. The second is much less accurate you listen to your body.

*Listening to your body*

When you are hungry eat, when you are not don't eat. Eating high GI foods increase cravings so if you are craving your eating to much high GI food, if you start to get full earlier, that is with smaller portions this is usually the first sign that you are not eating enough and your body has started to consume soft tissue, when your body perceives a famine it will consume the tissue that is least important to maintain your fat stores in order to maintain life, because a famine means less food your stomach is the first thing that will shrink.

No matter what way you decide to do things it is important that you track your progress and listen to your body. Buy a set of callipers, measure and record your body fat percentage, the goal is to lose fat while maintaining or increasing lean muscle mass, if you are losing weight and losing muscle mass at the same time you need to eat more (think skinny fat person or anorexic) if you are gaining weight or fat you need to eat less, it's as simple as that. If you are gaining weight but losing fat PERFECT.

Callipers can be bought cheap, less than $20. They don't need to be expensive or super accurate, they are just a means of measuring your progress. I use accumeasure, they are cheap, easy to find and do the job, I use the 3 fold method (thigh, chest and stomach), there are plenty of calculators online that you can use to calculate your results.

Body Fat Calculator

BBLex - calculators: 3-folds formula by Jackson/Pollock

As for your comments on weights and cardio. Overdoing cardio in combination with weights is counter productive to gaining muscle mass. You will burn calories when weight training regardless of whether you rest between sets or not, you will burn a shit load of calories when you are sleeping as your body needs energy to rebuild the damage you did when your destroyed your muscle fibres in your work out. You can even make your training session a cardio session by supersetting and having no breaks in between sets however you will not achieve maximum muscle gains by doing this. Most people who are training for growth do no extra cardio outside of their 5-10 minute warm up and warm down. 5 minutes of light to moderate cardio after training will reduce DOMS and reduce your recovery time.

One other supplement I forgot to mention, coffee. Caffeine is great especially pre work out, 3-5 coffees per day are a great aid to training and losing weight (no fat milk) sugar or a high GI carb in your pre work out coffee can aid your session however not so great for burning fat, Post work out have a good quality protein shake made with water if you are burning fat otherwise milk is fine if your emphasis is on muscle gain.

I'm happy to answer any further questions.


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## TomAwesome

s7eve said:


> As far as gaining size goes more reps, more sets with less weight (still the max weight you can lift to finish 80% of your last set, if you can finish your last set before you fatigue add more weight next session) and a good rest between sets is the way to go. You build size when you are resting, when you train you are tearing you fibres, when you rest your body repairs these stronger. Less reps with more weight typically increases density and strength not size however it will still increase size when combined with a good diet and rest periods.



Ack, I thought I had heard that it works the other way around. You seem to know what you're talking about, so I'll trust you over something I thought I heard lol, but oops. I'm more interested in building strength with very little noticeable size increase. A little definition is fine, but I don't want to look like Grizzly Petrucci. 

Also, why do I feel compelled to give you money?


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## El Caco

Hehehehehe........ no idea but you should follow your gut, PM me for my paypal. 

For strength my favourite workout is supersetting opposing muscle groups using te pyramid method. 

3-4 sets of 6-10 reps. 

No cardio pre work out, no stretching pre work out.
1st set: just the bar or light weight up to 50% this is your warm up 10-12 reps
2nd set: 50% weight 10 reps
3rd set: 75% weight 10 reps
last set: 100% weight, less than 6 reps drop your weight next session, 10 reps or more increase your weight. Once you fatigue do not do any more.
An example of opposing muscles is triceps, biceps. Chest, back. Eg. 1st set bench, 1st set bent over row, 2nd set bench, 2nd set bent over row, etc. all done with no rest between sets. 
An alternative to this is to use the pyramid format without supersetting and a 1 minute (no more) rest between sets.

If supersetting be careful, keep yourself hydrated and watch out for lactic shock.

I recently trained my wife using this format and before she stopped training she was lifting within 5 kg of the Australian record for bench press for 10 reps. I believe she could have broken it in a power lift but she only tried once and matched it. When we added weight she was to fatigued to even feel the weight.


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## El Caco

A more common variation on what I mentioned above off the top of my head is something like 50%, 75%, 90%, 100% or something like that basically more weight each set, I use my method for maximum weight in the last set.


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## El Caco

Oh I missed a critical point, rep duration.

It is most important to use correct technique, doing reps too quickly can cause injury and poor technique which often can help lift more weight immediately but does not help growth.

The program I mentioned above uses the 1 second up 2 second down format. Basically slower reps increase size and quicker reps are used for strength.

For maximum growth lifters sometimes use a 4+ second up 4+ second down with lower weight. Nothing burns, hurts more or is harder than slow reps. Slow reps will absolutely rip every fibre to pieces and this promotes maximum growth, it also means a longer rest period, up to a week before you train that muscle again.

Coming down 2 seconds is about as quick as you should go but some opt to explode on the way up, you will and should on your last few reps just to squeeze everything you have out but I recommend no faster than 1 second up for the rest.

WARNING always use a spotter with this method of training, you are lifting heavy weights and will fatigue rapidly, I mean rapidly you can get half way through a rep that is going good and all of a sudden fatigue totally and the bar will come down quick, this is even more important if you are using supplement like creatine to enhance your training.


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## El Caco

REST

This is where you grow do not train the same muscles every day, if you do want to train every day use a split program to ensure muscles are fully recovered before your next session.

Listen to your body, if you don't feel like training, don't. If you are fatigued or still have DOMS skip it. Your growth occurs when you are resting not when you are training, you will make no progress if you don't give your body time to recover.


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## Anthony

I'll join.

Height: 5'10
Weight: 220
Waist: 36
Chest: Puny


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## Buzz762

People doing this contest may want to read this: 

www2.pvc.maricopa.edu/fire/documents/CPATPrepGuide.pdf

The CPAT is the firefighter candidate physical agility test. That preparation guide outlines a workout routine and other principles you guys may find useful. It's mainly intended to help people pass the physical testing, but you can apply it to just about anything.


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## FortePenance

hey s7eve, what do you reckon about muscle failure? I've been doing 3 sets of 9-12 reps with a 20 second break between sets and sometimes I physically can't finish the last rep. Some sites say this is good though- others claim its a placebo effect. What about you?


----------



## El Caco

If it's genuine failure it's good that it is happening on your last rep but in the next few sessions you should have got stronger so you should be able to finish your set, this is when you add a little weight, how much depends on how easy the set was to complete.

If you continue to fail on the last rep without adding weight either you are just giving up and it's not true failure or you are not resting or eating properly and failing to progress.


----------



## TomAwesome

So to gain more strength and less bulk, the best way to do it is in fewer faster reps with more weight?


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## FortePenance

That's what I've been told.

Cheers for the info Steve, i'll have to see if i'm doing something wrong since I've been on the same weight for 3 weeks or so. =/


----------



## Jason

FortePenance said:


> My mom doesn't approve of me taking whey.



 Why not? Does she thinks it is unsafe? or that is like steroids or something? I find it funny considering China is using up tons of whey


----------



## El Caco

TomAwesome said:


> So to gain more strength and less bulk, the best way to do it is in fewer faster reps with more weight?



Yep


----------



## Labrie

FortePenance said:


> That's what I've been told.
> 
> Cheers for the info Steve, i'll have to see if i'm doing something wrong since I've been on the same weight for 3 weeks or so. =/



If you're training until failure but not gaining then I would suspect your diet is in question. If you aren't giving your body enough nutrients to repair your muscle fibers, then there's no way for your muscles to grow, right.

This is where supplements like protein/weight gainers/creatine come into play. Like I said before, I don't see how a person of your stature can hope to make gains without supplements unless you can eat thousands of calories every day with adequate protein consumption.

My 2cents anyway


----------



## El Caco

Science is divided on creatine, there have been studies that have concluded that creatine offers no advantage and it does have side affects. However I have used instant dissolvable creatine with glucose and it may just be a placebo effect but I believe that it gave me a boost during training, that could possibly be explained by the glucose and I find a black coffee with sugar has a similar effect. Creatine will not help with muscle growth, all it claims to do is help you to train harder.

Yes you need lean protein to build muscle, a protein shake post workout is highly recommended but make sure it is a premium protein without fillers. Protein supplements should be used sparingly IMO, I recommend whole foods over supplements. While everything I have read recommends lean protein and I would hesitate to recommend anything else I do not follow this, I hate chicken breasts, I love legs and thighs and the skin, I love fatty meat and eat lots of it, I have regular check ups and never had any negative results from this. I also eat lots of seafood and would recommend that at least half of your protein come from seafood. I eat two eggs a day they are one of the greatest foods we have.

I recommend lots of salad and green vegetables, you can go to town with these due to the high thermic effect (you use as much energy processing them as they provide), I add lots of olive oil to my greens, healthy fats FTW.

I'm not trying to gain weight so I don't eat a lot of grains, I only have one slice of wholemeal bread per day, that's not to say you can't lose weight while eating carbs, it's just the diet I enjoy and makes me feel best but what is good for me will not necessarily be good for someone else a diet need to be tailored to the individual and should be based on food that you enjoy eating, make you feel your best and perform at your optimum. Remember, losing/gaining weight has nothing to do with carbs it has everything to do with calories. Low carb diets just allow you to eat a lot more due to the low calorie content of the foods you are eating.

If you are trying to gain muscle you are going to have to eat carbs, when weight training your caloric requirement is much higher and the amount of food you would have to eat on a low carb diet would be rediculous, even people who are trying to lose weight will have to eat carbs if they are training hard. Eat healthy carbs that are high in fibre and low GI.

I'm not doing any form of training at the moment so my calorie, carb requirement is jack shit. That's right I have lost over 24 lb's and 7% body fat sitting on my arse talking to you guys, the only exercise I have done is walking, but it's not like I have made an effort there either most of it is incidental exercise. All of my weight has been lost through diet. A diet that has included days of eating nothing but junk food. Free days and monitoring total calories FTW but I don't sit down and work anything out I simply estimate my calorie count in my head. The week I was down the Gold Coast I ate nothing but take out for 5 days and still had a small weight loss. You should see what I have planned for my Birthday 

I have mentioned that I starting weights again shortly only to build some pec/upper body size, you can be sure I will increase my carb content when I do.


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## El Caco

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/li...me-facts-re-low-carb-diets-losing-weight.html


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## The Dark Wolf

Steve, I know alot about weight training, health, and nutrition.

But you flat out own in this thread. Rep, and nice work. I agree with pretty much everything you've said, and you've even got a broader, deeper knowledge on this subject than me. (Arnold is one of my heroes. Go figure.)


----------



## Gilbucci

s7eve said:


> Science is divided on creatine, there have been studies that have concluded that creatine offers no advantage and it does have side affects. However I have used instant dissolvable creatine with glucose and it may just be a placebo effect but I believe that it gave me a boost during training, that could possibly be explained by the glucose and I find a black coffee with sugar has a similar effect. Creatine will not help with muscle growth, all it claims to do is help you to train harder.
> 
> Yes you need lean protein to build muscle, a protein shake post workout is highly recommended but make sure it is a premium protein without fillers. Protein supplements should be used sparingly IMO, I recommend whole foods over supplements. While everything I have read recommends lean protein and I would hesitate to recommend anything else I do not follow this, I hate chicken breasts, I love legs and thighs and the skin, I love fatty meat and eat lots of it, I have regular check ups and never had any negative results from this. I also eat lots of seafood and would recommend that at least half of your protein come from seafood. I eat two eggs a day they are one of the greatest foods we have.
> 
> I recommend lots of salad and green vegetables, you can go to town with these due to the high thermic effect (you use as much energy processing them as they provide), I add lots of olive oil to my greens, healthy fats FTW.
> 
> I'm not trying to gain weight so I don't eat a lot of grains, I only have one slice of wholemeal bread per day, that's not to say you can't lose weight while eating carbs, it's just the diet I enjoy and makes me feel best but what is good for me will not necessarily be good for someone else a diet need to be tailored to the individual and should be based on food that you enjoy eating, make you feel your best and perform at your optimum. Remember, losing/gaining weight has nothing to do with carbs it has everything to do with calories. Low carb diets just allow you to eat a lot more due to the low calorie content of the foods you are eating.
> 
> If you are trying to gain muscle you are going to have to eat carbs, when weight training your caloric requirement is much higher and the amount of food you would have to eat on a low carb diet would be rediculous, even people who are trying to lose weight will have to eat carbs if they are training hard. Eat healthy carbs that are high in fibre and low GI.
> 
> I'm not doing any form of training at the moment so my calorie, carb requirement is jack shit. That's right I have lost over 24 lb's and 7% body fat sitting on my arse talking to you guys, the only exercise I have done is walking, but it's not like I have made an effort there either most of it is incidental exercise. All of my weight has been lost through diet. A diet that has included days of eating nothing but junk food. Free days and monitoring total calories FTW but I don't sit down and work anything out I simply estimate my calorie count in my head. The week I was down the Gold Coast I ate nothing but take out for 5 days and still had a small weight loss. You should see what I have planned for my Birthday
> 
> I have mentioned that I starting weights again shortly only to build some pec/upper body size, you can be sure I will increase my carb content when I do.


You lost weight by sitting on your ass and eating junk food? How is that even possible?


----------



## The Dark Wolf

^ Monitoring overall caloric intake.


----------



## El Caco

The Dark Wolf said:


> Steve, I know alot about weight training, health, and nutrition.
> 
> But you flat out own in this thread. Rep, and nice work. I agree with pretty much everything you've said, and you've even got a broader, deeper knowledge on this subject than me. (Arnold is one of my heroes. Go figure.)



Thank you Sir.



Gilbucci said:


> You lost weight by sitting on your ass and eating junk food? How is that even possible?



It's possible because weight loss is nothing more than "Energy in vs Energy out" and overcoming the defences your body uses to protect itself from starvation.

You should have a look at the thread I started re weight loss and low carb diets. I posted the link in my last post.

6 packs are made in the kitchen not in the gym.


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## The Dark Wolf

Truer words never spoken.

Hence my disgust with those "ab-buster" thingies, rip-off shit. 

I mean, yeah, that can get your abs in shape. But give a 6-pack, all by its lonesome? I think not.


----------



## FortePenance

Jason said:


> Why not? Does she thinks it is unsafe? or that is like steroids or something? I find it funny considering China is using up tons of whey



Something like that, she's old fashioned. She doesn't approve of me buying anything off the internet either - she believes everyone's a scammer. 



Labrie said:


> If you're training until failure but not gaining then I would suspect your diet is in question. If you aren't giving your body enough nutrients to repair your muscle fibers, then there's no way for your muscles to grow, right.
> 
> This is where supplements like protein/weight gainers/creatine come into play. Like I said before, I don't see how a person of your stature can hope to make gains without supplements unless you can eat thousands of calories every day with adequate protein consumption.
> 
> My 2cents anyway



I am gaining weight- what I meant was that I wasn't lifting any heavier. As for supplements, like I said I can't take any of them because of my mum/lack of cash to buy myself.


----------



## El Caco

The Dark Wolf said:


> Truer words never spoken.
> 
> Hence my disgust with those "ab-buster" thingies, rip-off shit.
> 
> I mean, yeah, that can get your abs in shape. But give a 6-pack, all by its lonesome? I think not.



Those ads piss me off, ab exercises potentially will make your abs bigger, if you make your abs bigger but do not address you diet at the same time chances are you will not burn any fat so the muscle growth pushing against the abdominal wall does nothing except make you look fatter in the gut.

Your not going to get a flatter tummy or a 6pack with those if you don't eat correctly and personally I don't find a girl with a thick trunk very attractive and those things seem to be marketed at women.

However I do think some of those ab devices are better for developing your abdominal muscles than crunches and if you are aiming at getting a set of abs like Ryan Reynolds you are going to have to work out your abs at some point.


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## Groff

Well, I'm a bit late into the game, but I'm going to join in on this a bit late starting today. I'll post up measurments and stuff later tonite.


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## 7 Dying Trees

Saw this thread, forgot about it, says a lot that i hardly ever (well, never actually) post in here, but just seen it after coming back from a run with the dog after deciding that was good excercise for dog + me (although he still isn't tired, and is STILL trying to have sexy time with the other dog) and after having lightly set foot in the gym again, i may as well join in.

So, I have years of alcohol and other shit, 12/13 years of smoking, a fair few years of sitting on my arse, not excercising much (except in little bursts now and again where i join a gym, get going for 5-6 weeks, then stop becuase of something retarded) and just being sick of not being in shape like i used to be.

One thing though, is that I have to overcome a knee problem, which severely limits any weights i can do with my legs (tried last week, and the muscles on the front of the thigh (yes, i am that scientific) can do 10kg combined maximum, not through lack of strength, but just through that once a tendon in my knee gets too much strain put on it, it inflamates, and stops me walking properly for 2-3 weeks if bad, and if overstretched it will render me unable to walk entirely (have had this happen before, hence me being wary, it's also been operated on, but i don't think it worked)).

Anyway, enough whinging, time to start "power" walking the dog. I also have no idea about my weight, or height, or measurements and am in no rush to find out, so in that respect, i may have to wait a bit before posting them as i have no clue.


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## El Caco

James talk to your instructor at the Gym and have a program made that takes your knee injuries into account. I have shoulder and back issues but a program that took those into account and strengthened the muscles around them really helped.


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## ElDuderino

s7eve said:


> As far as gaining size goes more reps, more sets with less weight (still the max weight you can lift to finish 80% of your last set, if you can finish your last set before you fatigue add more weight next session) and a good rest between sets is the way to go. You build size when you are resting, when you train you are tearing you fibres, when you rest your body repairs these stronger. Less reps with more weight typically increases density and strength not size however it will still increase size when combined with a good diet and rest periods.





s7eve said:


> Science is divided on creatine, there have been studies that have concluded that creatine offers no advantage and it does have side affects. However I have used instant dissolvable creatine with glucose and it may just be a placebo effect but I believe that it gave me a boost during training, that could possibly be explained by the glucose and I find a black coffee with sugar has a similar effect. Creatine will not help with muscle growth, all it claims to do is help you to train harder.



I agree with most everything you have discussed already, except for a few points. The vast majority of research done on creatine has shown how beneficial it is for most athletes, leaving little room for controversy as to it's effectiveness. It increases workout energy because creatine is actually your body's first choice for energy during anaerobic activity. It also increases the size of your muscle cells, muscle mass, maximal power and strength. The few who have experienced side effects usually had pre-existing conditions. Also, creatine supplementation *will* create muscle growth for most people. Creatine allows muscle cells to gain volume increasing the amount of water they can hold. Proper muscle cell hydration leads to greater protein synthesis, which will lead to muscle growth.

Somewhere along the line creatine received a bad rap, and I'm not sure why. As long as you make sure you get research grade creatine and take correct dosages, it works wonders. I saw great results while using it, and so have most people I know.


Sorry for my rant, but I just wanted to clear those few things up. Other than that, good job


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## El Caco

Thanks Ross, rereading what I wrote I'm glad you posted, it gives balance to what I said and the reader should investigate for themselves.

As I currently have no desire to use creatine I could not be arsed to research it. The conclusion of my previous study was, the reports that claimed creatine's advantages were industry prepared and did not document the testing procedure and did not submit their finding for peer review as such I am inclined to take what is said with a pinch of salt. However I did find one study that used a control group, documented their tests and submitted their results for peer review. It was a double blind study and the group that used Creatine showed no advantage over the control group.

On a personal level I feel that creatine helped me but I have no scientific basis for that claim and as I mentioned may be a placebo effect. Personally I'm inclined to believe that Creatine is beneficial as it is used in practically every sport at elite level however I'm not inclined to accept the claims such as the ones in your post (no offence) unless they are backed up with credible scientific evidence. If you can post a link to an independent double blind study that would sure help this lazy arse 

Everything I said should be judged by the same standard, I have not provided any evidence in support and I could not be bothered, Creatine might be everything Ross has said it is but I encourage people to research that for yourself. Hopefully Ross can provide a link for everyone that is a lazy as me and that would settle it.

Just be careful when reading the claims about how wonderful a certain product is, the market is flooded with advertising cleverly disguised as credible articles, magazines have gone from printing articles that promote their sponsors to being owned by the supplement companies and have become one big cleverly disguised advertising campaign for their products.


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## Labrie

s7eve said:


> Science is divided on creatine, there have been studies that have concluded that creatine offers no advantage and it does have side affects. However I have used instant dissolvable creatine with glucose and it may just be a placebo effect but I believe that it gave me a boost during training, that could possibly be explained by the glucose and I find a black coffee with sugar has a similar effect. Creatine will not help with muscle growth, all it claims to do is help you to train harder.



Any serious body builder I know uses creatine. As far as I'm concerned its a staple for gaining strength. While it won't directly promote muscle growth, it gives your muscles more energy, which in my experience, helps you get those extra few reps in when you would usually end a set. This is the time during your set that is most important, as you tear the most muscle. 

So while creatine is a simple energy producing molecule, it does help you build strength and size. 

The glucose you took with your creatine is just used as a transporting system. This is why almost all creatine products (except the kre-alkalines) always have high doses of sugar in them, whether it be glucose, dextrose etc.

I don't mean to sound like an ass but you can't just read the internet about these things and think you know everything (at least thats how it's coming across to me). I've trained with and without supplements and I know for a fact they worked wonders for me and basically everyone I've ever trained with. If there's anything I've learned working in science labs, it's that no study is 100% right or wrong. You'll always find another study that disagrees with yours.


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## El Caco

I can't see where I have disagreed with what you are saying so lets just agree to agree 

Except for the last paragraph, I'm 32, I paid for my first Gym membership at BJ's Gym out of money I earned washing cars and my $4 an hour job on Saturdays when I was 14, I did not discover the internet until the late 90's early 00's and only got connected myself about 3 years ago, my research has included magazines, a library of books and many years of practical application, the internet has only formed a fraction of my study but it is an invaluable resource. I always trained for strength and I always accomplished the goals I set out to achieve, I have also offered advise to a number of friends and they have used that advice to achieve their goals. I have had a number of friends that both compete professionally and on an amateur level including two Gym owners one of which last time I checked (a few years back now) still held an Australian powerlifting record.

Let's review what I said,

Almost every elite level athlete uses creatine.
I believe creatine helps you train harder.

So we actually agree. 

However to be fair I should be unbiased and present all sides of the argument, there is independent credible scientific research that suggests the same results can be achieved with or without creatine, there are a minority of successful natural body builders that are against any supplements (with the exception of protein ) Tom Venuto for example. The industry is saturated with misinformation and false studies in the name of corporate profit margins, the industry is firm on the benefits of creatine, science is divided.

My intention in this thread is to help others with what I have learned, it does not help anyone if I'm presenting biased unsubstantiated opinion so I tried to present the entire picture as I know it. I do not claim to know it all, I've found out many times that what I thought was correct, was in fact not correct, I know that I can learn a lot more. I'm just happy to help others with what I know and I'm more than happy to be corrected and educated, I hate being ignorant.


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## ElDuderino

s7eve said:


> On a personal level I feel that creatine helped me but I have no scientific basis for that claim and as I mentioned may be a placebo effect. Personally I'm inclined to believe that Creatine is beneficial as it is used in practically every sport at elite level however I'm not inclined to accept the claims such as the ones in your post (no offence) unless they are backed up with credible scientific evidence. If you can post a link to an independent double blind study that would sure help this lazy arse



 No problem man. 

Creatine Part 1

This website goes pretty in-depth in its discussion of creatine monohydrate, including several independent studies. There are also several articles on creatine on bodybuilding.com that are worth a read.


----------



## Labrie

s7eve said:


> I can't see where I have disagreed with what you are saying so lets just agree to agree



Maybe it was just the way I read your post. It seemed to me that you only take published studies as proof of something working or not working, whereas I, try the product and determine for myself whether it works or not. Also the fact that you stated "Creatine will not help with muscle growth" kind of got to me. Probably because I was stressed out as I had just got off work but anyhow, I didn't intend to insult you, so if you feel offended somehow I do apologize.


----------



## guitarplayerone

creatine definitely helps me with strength and size gains. I'll try to get some pix up... idk what my measurements are, but my one-rep max went up 60 pounds in the past two months, now at 225.

5'11
172 lbs
guessing 10%ish bodyfat, machine said I was at 7.6%, but I think I'm fatter than that. abs visible, etc

1-1.5 g protein per pound bodyweight worked wonders. 2g if low carb dieting.

I carb cycle atm, I was bulking for three months, gained a few pounds of mass, going from 156. definitely gained inches (not an inch) on the arms, etc.... gained tons of vascularity

a natural endomorph, I ate 3000 cals per day when bulking, 2000 when cutting. (sometimes less unfortunately)

protein powder helped cut too


----------



## El Caco

Labrie said:


> Also the fact that you stated "Creatine will not help with muscle growth" kind of got to me.



I'm going to respond to why I said that, please don't take it as arguing with you. I feel that it is important to research this again now, there is so much information and yes the research is all coming from the net this time, I've only just started obviously my view will develop as I continue to research.



ElDuderino said:


> No problem man.
> 
> Creatine Part 1
> 
> This website goes pretty in-depth in its discussion of creatine monohydrate, including several independent studies. There are also several articles on creatine on bodybuilding.com that are worth a read.



This is the type of article that I was referring to earlier, I feel it needs to be examined more closely as it is obviously biased. Why?

Daniel Gastelu is not only president of Supplementfacts and a writer on bodybuilding.com, he also sells supplements, he is not going to write a negative article about his products now is he. The same can be said about bodybuilding.com due to this claim, "World's Top Bodybuilding Cyberstore Guaranteed Lowest Prices!".

There is a fault with my statement, I did not go into enough detail. Yes creatine will help muscle growth as shown in the studies in the article, the problem with those studies is that they are tailored to a positive result, let me explain.

Extensive research has been performed on creatine over a long period of time, there are certain studies on creatine that have been repeated many times over and if I was to perform the study in the same way I would achieve the same result, with that in mind I know that if I wish to show that creatine is effective for increased muscle growth all I need to do is a double blind study over a relatively short period of time and collect the results before the subjects stop taking creatine. So yes creatine does increase muscle size and yes it does enhance performance however in my hypothetical study and the studies in the article it can only be concluded that creatine will be effective in the short term.

The question is what effect does it have after long term use and what happens to someone who has made gains using creatine when they stop using it?

DISCLAIMER: I don't believe I have researched creatine enough to write an article on it and as such I should not have made the comment I did, it's too late now so I will write what I know and how I came to my conclusions. I have researched creatine in the past and am in the process of doing so again but I am by no means qualified or an authority as is no one else commenting in this thread. It's a level playing field. My conclusions have and will continue to be formed from personal experience, observation and primarily from researching studies on the subject by people who are qualified while examining the qualifications of the source and taking into account if they stand to profit from being biased. 

What we know about Creatine.

The least effective time to take creatine is immediately before or during training. Doing so has often resulted in no gains or a negative result. Creatine is best taken post workout.

Creatine is most effective by loading. Heavy loading can achieve greater results in a short period but can produce greater side effects, moderate loading is just as effective as heavy loading over extended periods and produces less side effects.

Creatine has little to no effect on people of certain body types.

Creatine is most effective when taken in conjunction with high GI carbs.

Creatine use requires adequate hydration, the level of hydration required is an increased amount over normal consumption.

The body produces creatine naturally, when we boost our levels by supplementation over time the body will reduce it's production of creatine. An effective method of use that addresses this is cycling creatine use.

These facts have been well research and these facts can be used to tailor a study to achieve the results that is desired. When reviewing a study it is important to keep these in mind.

What I will not debate is that creatine is useful for competing athletes but since that is not applicable to the application in this thread I chose to ignore it.

Will using creatine help me to gain muscle and will I maintain that muscle when I stop using it, the question is am I better off using creatine for a period to gain muscle that I will retain after I stop using it or can I achieve the same result without creatine? Example: case (a) use creatine for x amount of time and continue to train for y amount of time after creatine is no longer used (b) train for x + y without the aid of creatine. Is there an increased result for (a) over (b) at the completion of x + y.

I concluded from my previous study that there is either no benefit or that the benefit is so small that it can be determined that using creatine is not effective, this is what I am now studying again.

One of the effect's of creatine is that the muscle will store more water increasing it's size and increasing the weight of the individual, this weight is often mistaken for increased lean muscle mass however it is actually an increase in water weight, when the individual stops using creatine they will lose this water weight and the additional size that the water provided.

When one stops using creatine they can expect to lose some strength and some muscle size, how much is debated. Creatine levels do not fall immediately after ceasing use of creatine so cycling can be effective to maintain the body's natural production and for continued supplementation.

Now I'm looking for longer studies that include the period after creatine use stops, I have come across one previously but I did not find it on the net and as of yet I have been unable to find it on the net, I will continue to look and hopefully I will have something to post soon.

I repeat that the blanket statement I made that creatine does not increase size should have been explained better or possibly not made at all, It does increase size while using it, there is more evidence to support this than the performance claims. I am not convinced it increases sustainable size, that is my studies of the subject have resulted in the conclusion that once you stop using it you will return to a size that is comparable to what you would expect if you never used it. Therefore I think it is useful for competition purposes but not for the goal of getting big if you don't plan to continue to use it. I think that is the debate that is applicable to this thread as the majority of people here I believe wish to improve their physique long term and do not intend to use supplementation long term to achieve that.

WARNING: Creatine use should only be considered after consulting a GP and should not be considered by people with a pre existing kidney condition.


----------



## B Lopez

I haven't done jack shit but camp and surf since this started


----------



## ElDuderino

s7eve said:


> This is the type of article that I was referring to earlier, I feel it needs to be examined more closely as it is obviously biased. Why?
> 
> Daniel Gastelu is not only president of Supplementfacts and a writer on bodybuilding.com, he also sells supplements, he is not going to write a negative article about his products now is he. The same can be said about bodybuilding.com due to this claim, "World's Top Bodybuilding Cyberstore Guaranteed Lowest Prices!".



But you left out the other information in his biography, such as how he is Director of Nutritional Sciences for the International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA), is an author, a "trainer of fitness trainers", and a sports nutrition and dietary supplement industry expert. He developed and authored ISSA's Specialist in Performance Nutrition certification program and course book, which is used to certify doctors, physical therapists, fitness trainers, strength coaches and nutritionists. He also is a graduate of Rutgers University, where he taught science courses. 

I guess I'm not seeing where the bias is. Nowhere on any of his pages does he discuss any brand names, or have links to any products. Also, with bodybuilding.com, yes they sell products, but they do not write any of the articles. All of the articles are taken from outside sources, mainly bodybuilders, who all have personal experience using creatine, and nearly all of them cite independent research studies. If you read the articles you will notice that many of them discuss supplements that you should avoid, or how you do not need as high of doses as many companies suggest. 

I'm not sure if you even read the Gastelu link I provided. He provides over 30 published studies from reputable sources such as the Journal of Applied Physiology, Journal of Sports Nutrition and Exercise Metabolism, and the American Journal of Physiology among many others.

As far as safety of long term creatine usage, a study was done which tracked healthy athletes over a five-year period, and football players who used creatine at levels up to 15.75g of creatine per day showed no effect on markers of renal or kidney stress. This study was published in the American Journal of Sports Medicine. There are also a couple other landmark studies that proved the safety of creatine usage.

As far as questioning the long-term benefits of creatine usage, many studies have shown that creatine increases muscle mass. It is a common misconception that it all just water weight. There is a difference between cell volumization and water retention. Cell volumization leads to more water inside the cells, making the muscle bigger and firmer. Water retention happens outside the muscle cells. That extra cell volumization leads to greater anabolism, which for most will lead to greater lean muscle mass.


----------



## El Caco

I must not have made myself clear because obviously you missed my point. I blame myself. 

I'm not talking about long term use or interested in it's safety as the average person is most likely not going to use it long term, they will use it to achieve their goal and then stop.

Nor am I stating that it is all water weight, I am questioning if a person would benefit over using creatine and then going off it over a person who trains without it, hence the example.

Person A: uses creatine for 3 months then trains for a further 3 months without creatine
Person B: trains for 6 months without creatine.



ElDuderino said:


> But you left out the other information in his biography, such as how he is Director of Nutritional Sciences for the International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA), is an author, a "trainer of fitness trainers", and a sports nutrition and dietary supplement industry expert. He developed and authored ISSA's Specialist in Performance Nutrition certification program and course book, which is used to certify doctors, physical therapists, fitness trainers, strength coaches and nutritionists. He also is a graduate of Rutgers University, where he taught science courses.



And this is a good thing why? I can not understand why people can not appreciate the problem with that, on one hand he is incredibly influential and in a position of responsibility on the other he is making money from the sale of the types of products he endorses, it is a conflict of interest and he is in the position to advocate products reguardless of their effectiveness that he sells. 

But he is not doing a great job is he. The fitness industry is a massive one that offers very little for a lot of investment. Gyms are full of people who train everyday and never achieve their goals, people spend a fortune consulting "doctors, physical therapists, fitness trainers, strength coaches and nutritionists" who are unable to help them, for every successful body builder how many wannabe body builders are out there who are doing everything they are told to and never seem to be able to get there? Obviously there is a lot of bad advice out there, the successful people are usually those who spend extra for a personal trainer or an expert that has a proven track record. These experts often keep their secrets close to them, that's how they stay successful, not to mention that going against the tide publicly could be career suicide for them. There are successful programs that are designed to improve physique that do not use creatine but these programs are not for people who are trying to get massive they are for the average person who wants to sculpt their body and get a bit bigger, the same type that is in this thread.

There are places you can go for information that have a much higher rate of success, I am a member of one such place at the moment, although I am not strictly following the program the success rate there is not equalled anywhere I have seen. 99% success rate for weight loss following a program that is against what is accepted as the right way to lose weight. You can check it out yourself but you have to pay for entry. The trainer who developed this system along side a doctor that specialises in diet has been named Australian personal trainer of the year and yet they speak out against the whole industry.

Creatine is great for a competitive body builder but we are not competitive body builders, we are a bunch of people that want to lose weight, get healthy and/or put on some muscle mass, few of us will want to take creatine long term to maintain our size so again the question is would we benefit from taking creatine short term and then just continue to train normally afterwards or would we be just as successful training without creatine?

One thing you will find with certainty and you will find this in body building forums is that it is not worth training with creatine and then stopping your creatine and training, in that case you will lose what you have gained.

Again I'm not against creatine and I believe in it's benefits for the applications I have mentioned, I am not convinced that it is of benefit to the other group I have discussed.

Finally, I did not read the entire article, I did however read the published studies, if I had not I would not have known how they were conducted and I would not have commented on them.


----------



## Labrie

s7eve said:


> Creatine is great for a competitive body builder but we are not competitive body builders, we are a bunch of people that want to lose weight, get healthy and/or put on some muscle mass



You definitely don't want to take creatine if your goal is to lose weight, in fact it will probably do the opposite. Just thought I'd throw that in there.


----------



## ElDuderino

s7eve said:


> I must not have made myself clear because obviously you missed my point. I blame myself.
> 
> 
> Nor am I stating that it is all water weight, I am questioning if a person would benefit over using creatine and then going off it over a person who trains without it, hence the example.
> 
> Person A: uses creatine for 3 months then trains for a further 3 months without creatine
> Person B: trains for 6 months without creatine.
> 
> 
> But he is not doing a great job is he. The fitness industry is a massive one that offers very little for a lot of investment. Gyms are full of people who train everyday and never achieve their goals, people spend a fortune consulting "doctors, physical therapists, fitness trainers, strength coaches and nutritionists" who are unable to help them, for every successful body builder how many wannabe body builders are out there who are doing everything they are told to and never seem to be able to get there? Obviously there is a lot of bad advice out there, the successful people are usually those who spend extra for a personal trainer or an expert that has a proven track record. These experts often keep their secrets close to them, that's how they stay successful, not to mention that going against the tide publicly could be career suicide for them. There are successful programs that are designed to improve physique that do not use creatine but these programs are not for people who are trying to get massive they are for the average person who wants to sculpt their body and get a bit bigger, the same type that is in this thread.
> 
> 
> Creatine is great for a competitive body builder but we are not competitive body builders, we are a bunch of people that want to lose weight, get healthy and/or put on some muscle mass, few of us will want to take creatine long term to maintain our size so again the question is would we benefit from taking creatine short term and then just continue to train normally afterwards or would we be just as successful training without creatine?
> 
> One thing you will find with certainty and you will find this in body building forums is that it is not worth training with creatine and then stopping your creatine and training, in that case you will lose what you have gained.



Sorry for the misunderstanding. Through personal experience and all the research I have done, I would be pretty confident saying that Person A would see better results than Person B. In a study published in the American Journal of Physiology, Vandenburghe and associates reported that women consuming creatine (20 g/day for 4 days followed by 5 g/day for 66 days) during resistance training observed significantly greater gains in fat-free mass compared with a placebo group. These gains were maintained during a subsequent 70-day detraining period with continued supplementation (5 g/day). In addition, the gains in fat-free mass were maintained 28 days after cessation of supplementation despite muscle phosphocreatine levels returning toward pre-supplementation values.

So the claim that training with creatine and then stopping supplementation and training is useless is completely false. Also, creatine supplementation is useful for more than just competitive bodybuilders. As I previously stated, anybody trying to increase strength and put on some muscle mass, which sounds like several of the posters in this thread, would benefit from creatine. 

While it will help you gain strength and muscle mass, if you are 160 pounds, using creatine will not turn you into a bulked up bodybuilder, so there is no need to worry about that. This idea brings up a funny story from Dorian Yates - "I would always get questions or statements from people who used to come down to the gym and asked to get big, but they didn't want to get too big. They wanted to attain the same proportions or something as me, but not much bigger than that. I would always tell them don't worry about it, it's not going to happen by mistake."


While this doesn't relate to the original point, I don't think it is fair to blame the failures of average gym-goers on Daniel Gastelu and the ISSA. There is a huge difference between the bodybuilders and the wanna-be bodybuilders, and it can't be blamed on bad trainers. If you followed them around, you could point out their flaws in either training, living habits, or diet which prevents them from attaining their goals. I have never heard anybody complain about a bad phsyical therapist, nutritionist, or strength and conditioning coach either. I believe saying that gyms are full of people who train everyday and never achieve their goals is a bit of an overstatement. Even so, for those who don't achieve their goals in the gym, I believe for a majority of them most of the blame lies on their own shoulders. 

On the topic of creatine, I guess we just have different viewpoints


----------



## Drew

s7eve said:


> Eating high GI foods increase cravings so if you are craving your eating to much high GI food,



Um, what's a "high GI food"? 

Also, since you (and Bob) seem somewhat experts in this subject, my plan is to essentially cut back on excess calories (I'm consuming more than I need, as evidenced by the fact I've put on weight) namely in the form of empty calories from booze, but also by actively striving not to overeat to the point of feeling too full, which on occasion I'm guilty of (eh, I'm Italian, I love food), coupled with substantially increasing the number of calories I'm burning through serious cycling, and striving to put on a bit more muscle mass and tighten up my abs through situps and pushups. 

Any reason this shouldn't work? Anything I need to be aware of? I already eat a fairly healthy diet, low in sugars and this time of year at least maybe not as high as I should be in fresh fruits and veggies, but higher than average, I suspect.


----------



## ElDuderino

Drew said:


> Um, what's a "high GI food"?



A food that contains carbohydrates that quickly raise blood sugar (glucose) levels. Here is a short list of some high GI foods - I'm sure there are better lists out there... High Glycemic Index List


----------



## El Caco

Drew said:


> my plan is to essentially cut back on excess calories (I'm consuming more than I need, as evidenced by the fact I've put on weight) namely in the form of empty calories from booze, but also by actively striving not to overeat to the point of feeling too full, which on occasion I'm guilty of (eh, I'm Italian, I love food), coupled with substantially increasing the number of calories I'm burning through serious cycling, and striving to put on a bit more muscle mass and tighten up my abs through situps and pushups.
> 
> Any reason this shouldn't work? Anything I need to be aware of? I already eat a fairly healthy diet, low in sugars and this time of year at least maybe not as high as I should be in fresh fruits and veggies, but higher than average, I suspect.



Cut back , don't quit. Your more likely to succeed if you don't try to force your self to do something you know you can't. If you can cope try to give yourself one day a week for drinking, the danger there is that you will overdo it, the alternative is to have a couple of drinks each night and count the calories in your daily intake, choose which suits you best. Unfortunately despite the calories alcohol is detrimental to weight loss, the reason for this is the body will not store alcohol so when you drink your body will process the alcohol before it can process other forms of energy. I know people who are losing weight and still drinking one to two glasses of red wine and the media have been spouting the benefits of red wine and dark chocolate lately but 

Lowering your calorie intake while increasing your activity is the best way to lose weight so your plan is sound, just remember "Energy in vs Energy out".

With the Italian diet my only warnings would be stick to premium food, the Italian diet in the US and Australia is not the same as the diet in Italy because generally speaking our ingredients are poor in comparison. Use wholemeal flour and other high fibre ingredients, check the calorie content of cheeses and stick to those with a low calorie content (I love cheese).


----------



## El Caco

The other thing I would mention Drew is make sure you are eating enough protein, it is an essential macro nutrient, if you can get your balance to 60% carbs, 40% protein that would be good 50:50 would be optimum IMO.


----------



## El Caco

66.6KG


----------



## Drew

I do almost all of my cooking from scratch, dude - 90% of my pesto sauce starts life as fresh basil, pine nuts, garlic, and good quality parmesean, and most of my red sauces are either based on fresh tomatoes or a can of Hunts diced tomatos. I also make about half of my pasta from scratch - I've experimented with 100% whole wheat flour, but the texture isn't right. I think maybe a blend of whole weat and white unbleached might work, but I haven't experimented much. 

I cook for flavor before I cook for health, but as I ate a pretty healthy diet as a kid, the two overlap surprisingly often.


----------



## TomAwesome

Drew said:


> I cook for flavor before I cook for health, but as I ate a pretty healthy diet as a kid, the two overlap surprisingly often.



 I found that after a pretty short "adjustment period" when I decided to start eating better, healthier food started tasting really damn good to me and all the junk food I used to love and almost live off of started to taste like crap and make me ill. If the right things are available to me, it's really not even hard or unpleasant eating healthy, or at least healthi_er_.


----------



## El Caco

Drew said:


> I do almost all of my cooking from scratch, dude - 90% of my pesto sauce starts life as fresh basil, pine nuts, garlic, and good quality parmesean, and most of my red sauces are either based on fresh tomatoes or a can of Hunts diced tomatos. I also make about half of my pasta from scratch - I've experimented with 100% whole wheat flour, but the texture isn't right. I think maybe a blend of whole weat and white unbleached might work, but I haven't experimented much.
> 
> I cook for flavor before I cook for health, but as I ate a pretty healthy diet as a kid, the two overlap surprisingly often.



Same here, except I only like whole wheat pasta now, it needs a lot more working to get the right texture and bloody hell it's hard work but I prefer everything about it now.


----------



## Drew

Hmm.What do you do to it to improve the texture?That was the dealbreaker for me...

By the way, I didn't say I was quitting drinking altogether.  I'm leaving myself weekends (friday night thru Sunday night), and every monday we go tot his bar up the street to see a couple bands play, so I usually have a couple then. Even then though, biking my ass off plus drinking four nights a week tops instead of 6-7 is makling a difference - I jumped up to about 197 by about the 4th, and when I weighed myself this morning I was maybe 191-2. I dropped about five pounds in the last week and a half; if I can keep this pace up I should be good to go.


----------



## El Caco

Good flour and kneading it for ever, I'm going to try a food processor next time to try and make it less work, if I remember I'll let you know how it goes.


----------



## Buzz762

B Lopez said:


> I haven't done jack shit but camp and surf since this started



I'm in the same boat with you. I'm starting today.. I've got a friend coming over to fight with on wednesday, I'm starting weight training today and working on building wind endurance today. I'm actually loading up on lean protein to help me gain some bulk.


----------



## DelfinoPie

Wehay, lost 5lbs so far...I have to admit I've been going at this quite half-arsed so far.

I'm going to start going swimming again next week (when I'm not on nightshifts) and also got my weight training planned out 

Time to shit some lbs!


----------



## Drew

I use a food processor, but I didn't let it run any longer than I normally would... Maybe next time.


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## El Caco

I've been doing it by hand  up to half an hour of kneading wholemeal pasta until it is silky smooth is hard work  I don't want to see the biceps of an Italian woman.


----------



## El Caco

My progress report:

I've really slacked off the last week, no walking, poor eating habits and a few drinks of scotch straight. I've lost weight but not the kind I want, I'm down to 66 kg but with the same body fat percentage so I'm losing lean muscle mass. Time to start weights I think and get back to eating correctly.


----------



## thadood

This is my first time posting in here since this all started, so here's a quicky update:

I've been at it for these three weeks or so now, and it's starting to feel good. I'm eating a bit better, and I'm a bit more active. I feel that I've lost a pretty fair amount of weight (enough to make me have to move the belt in a notch). My cardio stamina has increased a good bit, too.

Tonight, I pushed myself a little more than usual during my elliptical workout. I typically stayed at around 45rpm for the full 20 minutes. Today, I kept it above 55 the entire time. I had to take two 30 second breaks, but I definitely felt good after doing it. I'm still doing weights, as well, just not as much or as strenuous as I am on the cardio stuff. My fat-ass needs more constant energy, not short bursts of it =)


----------



## B Lopez

Been running 2 miles a day for the past few days.

What a workout!

A whole 16 minutes 

Time to hit the gym again.


----------



## Buzz762

I've been sore every morning for the past 5 days.
I love it 

My arms and shoulders are particularly sore today from moving Rescue Randy around all day during equipment training. I have a feeling this new job is going to keep me in shape regardless of whether I'm working out at home or not.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Keep it up, you pukes! I know you can do it!


Motivation is key. Find what motivates you.


----------



## TomAwesome

I haven't been able to do any exercising because of lack of time and general health (I've been sick a _lot_ lately), but I haven't gained a pound. I think I've gotten the inut ratio balanced pretty well. That or my muscles are atrophying while I get fatter.


----------



## B Lopez

The Dark Wolf said:


> Keep it up, you pukes! I know you can do it!
> 
> 
> Motivation is key. Find what motivates you.



I puked while running uphill sprints today.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

B Lopez said:


> I puked while running uphill sprints today.



I almost passed out while doing interval bike/weights yesterday. 

Course, it was humid as fuck.


----------



## B Lopez

Almost isn't good enough. You're not working hard enough.


----------



## budda

i've lost a few pounds since this started.

weighing in between 207 and 206 this past week!

gonna see if i cant figure out how to use the rowing machine at mom's work (its not the one im used to, so i hate it - go figure!)

i'm on the ride-on this week, which is why i need to get exercise elsewhere.

and im trying to start a pushups regime to get my moobs less saggy and up to where they should be lol.


----------



## Drew

I'm just coming off a week's vacation where I spent most of it playing host, so I didn't get in as much exercise as I wanted and additionally I ate out a lot more than normal. 

That said, I dropped my analogue scale in favor of a digital one so I could track my progress a little more accurately - the old one I had to guestimate within a 2-3 pound range; the new one is accurate to one decimal place. So, since my job has turned me into a fiend about precision and accurate measurements, I'm keeping a weight log in Excel and posting daily measurements every morning so I can graph out my progress.  I'm such a tool...

anyway, as of this morning, 193.8. I've definitely put on a little bit of extra chest muscle from the pushups, though.


----------



## DelfinoPie

No progress here 

Actually got called fat yesterday whilst at the pub which was a nice little self-esteem knocker.


----------



## TomAwesome

I've only gotten back to exercising the last few days, but I've lost some weight working on the computer and eating Ben & Jerry's (I know, I know, bad... but have you ever tasted Stephen Colbert's Americone Dream? Freakin' damn, it's irrisistable!)!  At first I figured that I was still getting fat and just losing muscle instead, but judging by how I look right now and how able bodied I was today in cleaning up the huge mess Dolly left everywhere (I was even climbing trees and swinging on half-fallen branches like vines to get them the rest of the way down), I think most of the 5 pounds I lost actually came from my gut. It's not a huge difference, but 215 sounds so much better in my head than 220.


----------



## Mr. S

I snapped a spoke on my bike yesterday whilst on a rather off road cycle thus buckling my wheel, oops! 

I also think I need to cut back on the ol' drinking, I eat alot of crap whilst drunk


----------



## kmanick

I ws actually up to 218 in June. (36 inch waist)
down to 210 yesterday, I've been training for a "Sprint" a 
mini triathalon since June 30th, but still lifting as heavy as I can.
The inches are starting to drop off around the waist line.
and my weights are going back up in the gym.
Target goal by August 24'th is 200 pounds and a 32 inch waist.
At a 34 now at 210, I should be able to do it.


----------



## TomAwesome

Mr. S said:


> I also think I need to cut back on the ol' drinking, I eat alot of crap whilst drunk



That's an issue for me, too, though for a while now I've been able to demonstrate will power against getting fast food or other junk food when I've been drinking.


----------



## Stengah_2012

You guys mind if a fat bastard joins in on this, albeit a little late?


----------



## TomAwesome

I think most of us are going slow with it anyway, and I don't think we're going to be involving money after all, so I don't see why not!


----------



## Drew

So I just got the greatest incentive to lose some weight over the weekend. 

I went up to the hardware store up the street to grab some topsoil to patch up some of the worst bits in my back yard. Since they only had 40 pound bags, I found myself lugging 40 pounds worth of topsoil about seven or eight blocks back to my place, thrown over my shoulder. 

Now, I'm no wuss, exactly, but a 40 pound bag of dirt for a quarter to half mile stroll isn't exactly easy going, and I was definitely feeling it in my shoulders and back all night and the next day. 

I got to thinking though, about halfway home, that the lightest I've been since I've been at my current height is about 165. At the start of this contest, I weighted a bit over 195. so, in other words, every day of my life I've since then been carrying around 3/4 of the weight of that sack of dirt that left me sore, spent, and stiff the next day. 

In other words, even if I get back down to 175 or so, think how much more energetic and rested I'll feel every day.


----------



## TomAwesome

Good job, Drew! I had a similar experience cleaning up after Dolly. It left me sore and exhausted moving all that fallen wood, but in a way that actually felt kind of good. I almost wanted to move some of the bigger pieces to the back yard to leave there to replace my dumbbells.


----------



## Drew

I think you missed the point of the story, dude. It wasn't "look at me, I carried a 40 pound bag a half mile," it was "Geez, if I feel this sore carrying 40 pounds on my back, well, I'm carrying 20-30 pounds of extra weight in fat around every day, and imagine how much more energetic I'd feel if I _wasn't_."

It makes you think, and gives you a reason to push yourself.


----------



## TomAwesome

Oh, yeah. I'm tired and hungry and a little out of it.  I do feel a shitton more energetic than I did when I was closer to 260, though.


----------



## DelfinoPie

Got my bike all repaired/refurbished and all that jazz today...and guess what?

Right now its absolutely shitting it down with rain!

Typical, yesterday it was sunny as...well, sunny as fuck and it was for most of today until an hour ago and now there's flooding in several areas of birmingham 

Ah well, at least its done, I can ride it to and from work on the night shift rather than getting a lift off my Dad or getting taxi's all the time 

I haven't actually made much improvement yet, but will be signing up to the gym near me this week and will be aiming to go at least twice a week but ideally three times. I'm going to prove all these friends who've made cracks about my weight wrong. 



Mr. S said:


> I snapped a spoke on my bike yesterday whilst on a rather off road cycle thus buckling my wheel, oops!
> 
> I also think I need to cut back on the ol' drinking, I eat alot of crap whilst drunk



Same here. I was reading something in the newspaper about how one of the journalists stopped drinking for a month and she lost 7lbs. Which makes a lot of sense as alcohol holds a lot of empty calories  I'm still trying to stop my drinking altogether.


----------



## Stengah_2012

Drew said:


> I think you missed the point of the story, dude. It wasn't "look at me, I carried a 40 pound bag a half mile," it was "Geez, if I feel this sore carrying 40 pounds on my back, well, I'm carrying 20-30 pounds of extra weight in fat around every day, and imagine how much more energetic I'd feel if I _wasn't_."
> 
> It makes you think, and gives you a reason to push yourself.



Yeah, I've had that realization before. I was holding up a 100lb punching bag while someone else was chaining it up to a joist in the ceiling, and I thought, "Damn, this thing is heavy." 

I realized later that since I'm about 100lb overweight, that means I'm essentially walking around with one of these things all day, which is probably why I can leg press 1000lbs with full range of motion. 

Thankfully, I've started a new job in which me and 3-4 other guys offload freight trucks all day, so hopefully that'll help the weight situation.


----------



## Mr. S

It's going slow but well for me at the moment, I've probally lost about half a stone since I started and I actually find that I'm slowly becoming more toned, hopefully soon I'll get back the stamina I used to have when I was younger and very much more in shape 



DelfinoPie said:


> Same here. I was reading something in the newspaper about how one of the journalists stopped drinking for a month and she lost 7lbs. Which makes a lot of sense as alcohol holds a lot of empty calories  I'm still trying to stop my drinking altogether.



I totally intend to stop (though after the sevenstring meet next weekend ) as it'll help me out in so many areas, eating all the junk I eat when drunk, feeling lethargic during the day at weekends/mondays and not doing exercise on those days, it'll no doubt help me completely stop smoking and not to mention the financial benefits


----------



## noodles

Drew said:


> I got to thinking though, about halfway home, that the lightest I've been since I've been at my current height is about 165. At the start of this contest, I weighted a bit over 195. so, in other words, every day of my life I've since then been carrying around 3/4 of the weight of that sack of dirt that left me sore, spent, and stiff the next day.
> 
> In other words, even if I get back down to 175 or so, think how much more energetic and rested I'll feel every day.



In all fairness, though, we are naturally much lighter when we reach our maximum height, sometime in our teenage years. I know that I'm not looking to go anywhere near my 123lb height upon graduating high school. Muscle tone, and not just fat, make up your total weight. Be more concerned about the mirror, and less concerned about the scale. If anything, go by body fat percentage measurements.


----------



## YYZ2112

I'm scared to know what my body fat percentage is. 


I want to go back to when I was 20 and weighed 140 pounds at 6'-2".


----------



## FortePenance

^no you don't.  I'm like 145 at 6' and the skinny "shit i can see your ribs" look is really unattractive. >_>


----------



## B Lopez

Today I ran:

1/2 mile 3min.
4 110yd sprints
3 210yd sprints
2 310yd sprints
1/4 mile sprint

Then 9 min jumprope 30sec on/off.

And I didn't puke!


----------



## budda

i got new pants (36) and they fit!

still weighing between 205 and 207 on average.


----------



## FortePenance

I want to eat ground beef out of a bag.


----------



## YYZ2112

FortePenance said:


> I want to eat ground beef out of a bag.



 and then chase it down with some lard.


----------



## Makelele

I did a bench press series that I had never managed to finish before today. Started out at 65 kg (143 lbs) 10 reps, then 70 kg 8 reps, then 75 kg 8 reps, 80 kg 6 reps, 85 kg 4 reps, and finally 90 kg (198 lbs) 2 reps. So I think I could beat my previous bench record of 100 kg (220 pounds). I have to try that the next time I'm working out my chest and back. 

I haven't really gained any weight/size lately, but I've gotten a bit stronger overall.


----------



## Anton

Well,I like working out that's my hoby. Music is my life and bodybuilding\powerlifing is something that I do to keep my self sane and take all the agressions out.

I'm 184cm(about 6 feet tall that is)
Weight 92kg(that's about 200punds)
Bodyfat around 9-10%

Today I trained Biceps and Hamestrings. Hited biceps curls with EZY bar 57.5kg for 8 reps then did some preacher dumbell curls and then some supersets.
For hamesting I like doing some deadlifts and leg curls.
For deadlifts I usaully train powerlifting style(Less reps more weight) Hited 220kg for 6 reps.

This is an old pic of me (same as the avater one)







If anybody has any questions about Bodybuilding,Powerlifting,Nutrtion,Supplements or anything like that I'll be more than happy to help


----------



## TomAwesome

Remind me not to get on your bad side, Anton. 

Meanwhile, I just got off the treadmill. Do anybody else's legs go through sort of a decompression stage after running on the treadmill for a while? It feels kind of funny, almost like I'm popping pop corn in my legs.


----------



## Anton

LOL Dont worry about it.
I never train legs after runing on the treadmill.I dont do that becouse the squats and heck squats take so much breath away that doing it after some runing seems to be insane.Furthermore to build leg muscle the best way to do that is heavy squats hech squats,Leg press and leg extensions. Going heavy any really killing your legs ;D


----------



## B Lopez

August 5, 2008





As compared to June 27, 2008
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/1104322-post11.html

I think I just got a *little* more tan 
At least Im seeing increases in weight at the gym


----------



## FortePenance

holy anton.


----------



## HighGain510

In the past 3 days I've *finally* started making myself do some pushups and situps. My joints are bad so I might try to buy some of those "U" bars to set on the floor so I'm not supporting the weight of my fat ass on bent wrists but rather the bars.  After some situps and pushups I could feel the burn and it actually helped me sleep a bit better. I'm going to try to keep at it until I get down to being able to do a ton of them before feeling really tired!  Then it's off to the gym again to get some real work in, just don't want to go there yet as I'd really make an ass of myself at this point!


----------



## Anton

FortePenance said:


> holy anton.


 
Thanks man


----------



## B Lopez

Clocked my mile time at 6:44, and I wasn't really that tired. 

Going for 6:30 next week.

Then soon 14min for 2 miles.


----------



## DelfinoPie

Changed my set/reps this week from 5x5 to 3x12 with increased weight.

I'm aiming to have dropped a decent amount of weight by November 15th now as that's when I'm meeting a girl I've been speaking to on the net for like 5 years now but never actually met. Now, I'm determined to look better for this Paul Gilbert gig where I'll be meeting her 

The fact I'm able to actually do push ups again has got me feeling very positive today. I used to work out using the RAF's training regime, I'm going to work up to that in the next few weeks


----------



## Drew

Kickass, dude.  

Being the dork I am, I've been tracking my progress in Excel.  I may post up my spreadsheet when I'm done, but I've got myself a "benchmark" line showing a fixed decrease rate that will get me down from 195 (technically, before I got the digital scale I have now, I was up around 197-198, but whatever) on June 30th or so to 175 by December 28, then a line representing daily weight measurements (first thing in the morning, before my shower), and then an excel-generated "trend line" to smooth out the number a bit. 

So far I'm a little ahead of target, and the slope of the trend line is a little steeper than my target line. My measurement this morning was (I think) 190.4, and I've been as low as 187.8 temporarily (I tend to fluctuate a bit). I suspect it'll get harder to lose weight as I take more off and as such I don't know if 175 is really feasible, but so far I'm making progress - from highest measured point to lowest measured point is a drop of 10 pounds.


----------



## FortePenance

I just weighed myself on Monday and i've gained 2kg woohoo.


----------



## DelfinoPie

Drew said:


> Kickass, dude.
> 
> Being the dork I am, I've been tracking my progress in Excel.  I may post up my spreadsheet when I'm done, but I've got myself a "benchmark" line showing a fixed decrease rate that will get me down from 195 (technically, before I got the digital scale I have now, I was up around 197-198, but whatever) on June 30th or so to 175 by December 28, then a line representing daily weight measurements (first thing in the morning, before my shower), and then an excel-generated "trend line" to smooth out the number a bit.
> 
> So far I'm a little ahead of target, and the slope of the trend line is a little steeper than my target line. My measurement this morning was (I think) 190.4, and I've been as low as 187.8 temporarily (I tend to fluctuate a bit). I suspect it'll get harder to lose weight as I take more off and as such I don't know if 175 is really feasible, but so far I'm making progress - from highest measured point to lowest measured point is a drop of 10 pounds.



That's awesome good work 

I too have been using Excel to track progress. I went from 12stone (roughly 168lbs to 170lbs (which I attribute to starting to drink lots of water but now my body is used to it) and last I checked I was down to 167lbs. A small bit of progress but, despite being the one who put forward we start this thing almost two months ago, I got quite a late 'proper' start  Which is kinda rubbish because if I had started when everybody else had imagine how much progress I could have seen! Whoops, ah well, at least I'm on the right track now!

Also, I've been eating a lot of steamed chicken with salad and light honey mustard dressing. Holy shit is it wonderful!


----------



## Drew

Steamed chicken? That REALLY doesn't sound good.  Why not grill it? Grilling is actually a very healthy cooking method, as a lot of the fat from the (already lean) chicken can simply drip off into the coals. It tastes fucking awesome, too, especially if you get into spice rubs or smoke chips or whatnot.


----------



## DelfinoPie

I used to grill chicken a lot...but I find it makes tougher which I don't really like.

What would be the problem with steaming? I'm currently eating a lot of chicken breast steaks and skinless chicken breast.


----------



## Groff

DelfinoPie said:


> I used to grill chicken a lot...but I find it makes tougher which I don't really like.



Try grilling it slowly, over low heat. It takes me 30 minutes to grill chicken. Juicy, and melt in your mouth.


----------



## DelfinoPie

Cool, I'll give that a go tonight.

I think my main problem is using a George Foreman for grilling, that could be why it makes it kind of tough to cut on the top and bottom at least. I'll actually use the grill over my oven, see how it turns out 

Cheeers


----------



## Drew

DelfinoPie said:


> What would be the problem with steaming? I'm currently eating a lot of chicken breast steaks and skinless chicken breast.



Texture.  Steaming certainly works, but it leaves the chicken a fairly uniform texture. Chicken, like almost all meat, really comes into its own when the texture is impacted by cooking; slight searing on the exterior, a juicy center. 

The other thing you may want to try as an alternative to slow-cooking is searing the chicken at a relatively high heat. If you can crisp up the exterior of the chicken almost immediately, then a lot of the juices will get locked inside the chicken and won't be able to drip out. This is really the best of both worlds approach - the meat is tender and juicy, but with a crisp exterior. 

I don't get too anal about this and usually just grill at a pretty high heat, but (especially if you're using a gas grill with good temperature control, or a charcoal grill with the coals split a bit so you have one REALLY hot section, and one cooler) you could certainly try a couple minutes for each side at about as hot as you can get your grill, and then cut back the heat/move to the cooler section and then slow cook for a while to to finish heating the meat through.


----------



## FortePenance

Going to Sweden for 2 weeks and I won't be able to exercise. ;_;

Hopefully I won't be too bent out of shit when I get back.


----------



## B Lopez

whats stopping you from taking a quick jog in the morning?


----------



## Jason

Jason said:


> I'm sitting right around 200 5'9" and 18% bodyfat. I'll get pics when I can.



Still the same


----------



## Jason

Were is every one measuring there "waist" I do it right near my belly button which is the biggest part.


----------



## budda

so an update on me, ish:

down to 205 fairly regularly. been to the gym for half an hour a day for 3 days per week the last 2 weeks w/ my buddy

i can lift my own body weight 

size 36 jeans (down from 38 at the beginning of the summer), i need to wear Large shirts instead of XL's and even they fit a tiny bit loose..

and i have a hell of a tan (i look my heritage now!) .

looking forward to using the school gym in 2 weeks


----------



## Drew

Jason said:


> Were is every one measuring there "waist" I do it right near my belly button which is the biggest part.



Slacker. I think I measured both my stomach and my waist in a "what size jeans do you need" sense - where a pair of pants is supposed to fall on your hips (as opposed to two inches lower, where most of us actually wear their jeans. )


I was 188 as of this morning - I've briefly dipped lower than that, but only for a day or so here or there. But, the last week or so I haven't weighed in over 191 and the general trend on the chart I've been keeping has been downward. Since my peak was 197 since I've been measuring, I'm looking at almost ten pounds in the last month and a half.

The "target" line I calculated that'll have me at 175 by December 25th if I maintain an even pace (which, let's be fair, I won't thanks to the holidays and the difficulty in road biking in the winter) says I should be around 192-191 or so right now, so I'm a couple pounds ahead of target. Fingers crossed...


----------



## Jason

Weird. If I measure my stomach AND my waist it's the same size


----------



## B Lopez

I started CrossFit today.

Will report later.


----------



## YYZ2112

Drew said:


> I was 188 as of this morning - I've briefly dipped lower than that, but only for a day or so here or there. But, the last week or so I haven't weighed in over 191 and the general trend on the chart I've been keeping has been downward. Since my peak was 197 since I've been measuring, I'm looking at almost ten pounds in the last month and a half.
> 
> The "target" line I calculated that'll have me at 175 by December 25th if I maintain an even pace (which, let's be fair, I won't thanks to the holidays and the difficulty in road biking in the winter) says I should be around 192-191 or so right now, so I'm a couple pounds ahead of target. Fingers crossed...



Sure, rub it in that you're doing well . Seriously that's great. You're doing everything I wanted to do that I haven't come close to achieving. 

 Excuse time..... I've been totally stressed out at my job which has been getting bad for a while but has hit an all time new low as of recently. I usually lose weight when going through stress like this but this time I just seem to be staying in the same place and not going anywhere up or down. I also think turning 37 this year is not exactly helping me speed up my metabolism either. 

I still have a goal to be 175-180 at the end of the year but it's going to take me getting much more serious about this. I've been talking about going jogging for about two months now and have not gone once.


----------



## canuck brian

DelfinoPie said:


> Cool, I'll give that a go tonight.
> 
> I think my main problem is using a George Foreman for grilling, that could be why it makes it kind of tough to cut on the top and bottom at least. I'll actually use the grill over my oven, see how it turns out
> 
> Cheeers



Not sure if you guys have it, but seriously try chicken breasts using Franks Red Hot for the sauce. Cook it super slow and punch a bunch of holes in it with a fork while it's simmering (with a lid on - very important). SO much flavor. 

I've managed to get myself down from 187.5 to 183 - doing more cardio and watching what I eat a little more. Also - no more late night snacks - they go right to my gut.


----------



## Drew

For what it's worth, Pete, I was 192 this morning. Slacking off again, on my end.  It's been a SERIOUSLY bad week though.


----------



## B Lopez

B Lopez said:


> I started CrossFit today.
> 
> Will report later.



Report:

It's pretty tough, but damn its fun. 

PS, kettlebell swings suck. :sore:


----------



## Celiak

I just started lifting weights, going situps, and going for walks... I've gained like 10 pounds in the last month and I ate two lunches today... I guess it's okay as I feel healthier, but I'm quickly approaching the weights people here are trying to come down from LOL.


----------



## B Lopez

*Crossfit, Day 2*

Report: Fuck.


----------



## Drew

B Lopez said:


> *Crossfit, Day 2*
> 
> Report: Fuck.



 


Went for a hard, but short (like a bodybuilding elf - catch the reference, anyone?) ride yesterday, was 190.4 this morning, so I'm back ahead of my target.


----------



## YYZ2112

Drew said:


> Went for a hard, but short (like a bodybuilding elf - catch the reference, anyone?) ride yesterday, was 190.4 this morning, so I'm back ahead of my target.



Not me.... I was 196 this morning. I'm getting to the point where I would be elated to see 189.


----------



## Drew

Dude, buy a road bike, ride with me.


----------



## B Lopez

Drew said:


>



you try it 

ps, get on your feet and run


----------



## Drew

I HATE running, dude. I never could get into it. I've been a cross counytry skiier since an early age (though I haven't done much lately), I've been mountain biker of varying degrees of seriousness all my life and a avid hobbyist road biker lately, and I've played a lot of soccer and ultimate frisbee in my day, too, but whenever I tried to get/stay in shape by running, it'd last about a week and then I'd start missing days and then next thing you knew three weeks had gone by and I hadn't gone running. 

Biking, meanwhile, I fucking love. It's something I really enjoy doing, so I'm way more inclined to go out and do it. I don't enjoy running, so I have a much harder time making myself do it. It's a no-brainer for me.


----------



## budda

203.8 today  - and now i wear my belt on the 2nd notch, odd.. 

i had a ridiculosu 10 oclock break snack though.. large slushee, can of sprite, a donut, and a twix bar.

i had a damn small breakfast tho lol (bagelwhich and a granola bar and milk).

i think i'll attempt jogging next week, on top of hopefully going to the gym.

and today i've done 100 crunches, which is the most i've ever done. did 'em in about 10 minutes too, 4 sets of 25. and then i did aroudn 10-15 just now for kicks, because i figured i could do some more.

gym time in a week and a half! gotta learn how to cook too.. good thing i have a recipe book now!


----------



## YYZ2112

I went for a 1.5 mile jog on Friday after work and just about puked half way into it. I forgot how much I dislike running on pavement. Two days later now I'm starting to feel the effects of it on my legs. I did play some volleyball Saturday on slightly wet grass which made traction a bit difficult and had a few near splits. I'm thinking that may be playing some part in my pain right now. 

I hope to work up to 3 miles a day but it's not going happen overnight. 3 miles on a treadmill certainly seems easier than on a street.


----------



## B Lopez

Crossfit Day 3

Report: Damn near puked. (Again).





YYZ, running on concrete sucks major ass. I avoid it as much as possible, but I would go on concrete before a treadmill. Try to find a nice park trail


----------



## Drew

He's a Yankees fan, though. He has to avoid dark, secluded places like trails through parks just so no one jumps him and kicks his ass.


----------



## YYZ2112

Drew said:


> He's a Yankees fan, though. He has to avoid dark, secluded places like trails through parks just so no one jumps him and kicks his ass.



 Very true.

I was thinking about going down to local high school track but I'm probably not safe there either.


----------



## budda

I'm all about the treadmill myself.

does kinda hurt the knees after a while though


----------



## Jason

B Lopez said:


> *Crossfit, Day 2*
> 
> Report: Fuck.



Crossfit is INSANE 

Signed up for the gym today 


I miss working out badly.


----------



## B Lopez

Its only insane if you make it insane.

Which I do.


----------



## jaxadam

I'm just gonna stick to my Syntha-6/No-Xplode/Cellmass and hope to make 205 by December...


----------



## Jason

jaxadam said:


> I'm just gonna stick to my Syntha-6/No-Xplode/Cellmass and hope to make 205 by December...



I'm already 205


----------



## jaxadam

Jason said:


> I'm already 205



I think I'm floating right around 196 right now.


----------



## budda

i was 205 today 

i still have my 120 crunches to do


----------



## B Lopez

Im not weighing myself. Just going by how good I look.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

^ Fucking A.


----------



## FortePenance

B Lopez said:


> whats stopping you from taking a quick jog in the morning?



Nothing but i'm looking to lift weights and shit. Everyone cycles here though so i've just been cycling through town so i guess that's some form of exercise.


----------



## Drew

I've been holding steady at a hair above 190 for a little while now - 190.4 this morning. On one hand, based on the "target" I set myself (I did up an excel spreadsheet to track myself, so I also added a formula column that took my starting weight and subtracted a target daily change representing the 20 pounds I wanted to drop from 195 to 175 divided by the total number of days before we get to Dec 25th), I'm right on track, but on the other, I was consistantly 3-4 pounds ahead a week and a half ago, and I feel like I've kind of plateaued. 

Part of it is I'm working too much, but even then I'm getting in some decent rides. I think I need to get serious abotu crunches and pushups to add a little extra muscle mass to burn calories, and to simply burn more calories.  

(I mean, to be fair, I'm sure part of it is I've put on a couple pounds of muscle from all the riding I've been doing, and realisticallly I don't think I could hit 175 anyway if I keep riding this hard because I'll add muscle mass to replace the fat I'm buring off). 

The good news is even where I am now, down to 190 from a peak of 198, I do feel a bit better than I did before I started riding.


----------



## B Lopez

The Dark Wolf said:


> ^ Fucking A.



Fucking A. Right. 


Drew, how tall are you?


----------



## Anton

This pic is about a year old,I'll try to get a same only an updated one


----------



## Drew

some of you fuckers really don't "need" to get in better shape.  

Lopez, I'm an even 6'. 190 at 6' isn't exactly fat, but I used to be thinner and I'd like to lose another 10-15 pounds from where I am now. 

188 this morning. I did crunches before I hit the shower, which was tough going because at the moment I've got so little ab muscle that it's tough to do sets not because the muscles hurt,b ut because it's tough to get off the ground.


----------



## jaxadam

Anton said:


> This pic is about a year old,I'll try to get a same only an updated one



Is that a couple of Animal Paks with a big bottle of Jim Beam on the shelf I see?


----------



## B Lopez

Drew said:


> Lopez, I'm an even 6'. 190 at 6' isn't exactly fat, but I used to be thinner and I'd like to lose another 10-15 pounds from where I am now.



To be honest, you worry more about your weight than an anorexic high school girl. 

Seriously dude, put away the scale and just take a picture of yourself, then in 6 weeks take another and compare the two to see your progress (or lack of).


----------



## Drew

What do I do for a living again, man? I'm a performance analyst - I both measure the periodic change of market portfolios, and then quantify that against an appropriate broad market investable alternative to see how much value the manager is actually adding through active management as opposed to, say, iinvesting passively in index funds. 

Let's say I'm becoming a little type A about this kind of stuff.  I don't want to have to rely on a visual "eh, that looks a little better" comparison - I demand hard quantitative data.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

I'm starting back into running on my elliptical today or tomorrow, probably tomorrow because I have to fix someone's computer tonight. I got out of it because right when it changed from spring into summer, I got a nasty cold and was out of commission for like a week, then it was too fucking hot to run. I recently modded another xbox (original) for playing ROMs on and streaming media from my PC into the room the elliptical is in, so now I'll even have entertainment  I'll let you know how playing Final Fantasy IV goes while running for an hour


----------



## B Lopez

Analyze this:


----------



## xXxPriestessxXx

I am now running 6 miles at least 4 days a week. I need some good toning exercises though if anyone has any suggestions.


----------



## B Lopez

Ask Anton, looks like he's got that down pretty good.


----------



## YYZ2112

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> I am now running 6 miles at least 4 days a week. I need some good toning exercises though if anyone has any suggestions.



You are running 6 miles a day 4 times a week? That's great.


----------



## TomAwesome

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> I am now running 6 miles at least 4 days a week. I need some good toning exercises though if anyone has any suggestions.



Good job! I ran almost 6 miles the night before last, but my body isn't completely used to it. Most of me was fine and wanted to keep going (especially my heart, which I suppose is the main point), but my feet were sore, and my right knee was bugging me a little.


----------



## xXxPriestessxXx

TomAwesome said:


> Good job! I ran almost 6 miles the night before last, but my body isn't completely used to it. Most of me was fine and wanted to keep going (especially my heart, which I suppose is the main point), but my feet were sore, and my right knee was bugging me a little.



After a while the aches go away. Now it is a kind of theraputic thing for me.


----------



## Anton

jaxadam said:


> Is that a couple of Animal Paks with a big bottle of Jim Beam on the shelf I see?



NO NO NO!! A few animals with a JACK DANIELS!!  LOL


----------



## Drew

B Lopez said:


> Analyze this:



You are angsty. You are intimidated by ex-nerds who have gotten real jobs and can still outdrink you. You fear my shred chops, but are too fearful to say so. Your mommy didn't love you enough.


----------



## YYZ2112

Drew said:


> You fear my shred chops, but are too fearful to say so.




Well I fear them. I just wish I had a CD showcasing them.


----------



## B Lopez

Drew said:


> You are angsty. You are intimidated by ex-nerds who have gotten real jobs and can still outdrink you. You fear my shred chops, but are too fearful to say so. Your mommy didn't love you enough.



I guess I asked for it. 

You're still a current nerd though.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

I'm with Bobby on this.

You want to be in shape, do all that other shit (I do, too). Strength and conditioning, it's great.

But you wanna _look_ good? Fuck scales and shit. Watch your diet, and hit the fucking weights, bro! Build up some lean muscle mass. Nothing looks better.


----------



## Anton

Agree with the dark wolf.
Lift Heavy eat right and you gonna get in shape in no time.


----------



## budda

thats the plan!

only the "eating right" will take some serious work...

i get to hit the school gym in 4 days.. 

gonna bench-press and pec-deck the moobs right off!


----------



## Drew

B Lopez said:


> I guess I asked for it.
> 
> You're still a current nerd though.



 Ditto, that's probably true...


----------



## DelfinoPie

Just got back from my first bike ride in about 6-7 years 

I didn't plan a route before hand but looked at the route I went on google maps and apparently it's 2 miles exactly 

Next time I'll plan it better because on the way back there's quite a few hills that, although they aren't that steep, they really kill your legs because you're so tired after riding down there 

That's the most amount of cardio excercise I've done in 3 years...I'm so out of shape!

Same time tomorrow? Yuuuuuuuuuup


----------



## Jason

YYZ2112 said:


> Well I fear them. I just wish I had a CD showcasing them.



Drew does too


----------



## DelfinoPie

Jason said:


> Drew does too





The road biking is just another excuse to put it off 

But seriously Drew, when you do get your album done, I hope you know it's going to be the best selling album of all time just through the anticipation it has caused!


----------



## Anton

Well This is my so called "LIFE WITH METAL AND BODYBUILDING"

Working out :






Working out:







Working out(Working my liver out )







Preforming the second work out ;D







Posting stupid pictures online while half drunk and embarrassing myself online :-\


----------



## Drew

Jason said:


> Drew does too



I hate you Jason.


----------



## zimbloth

Anton said:


> Well This is my so called "LIFE WITH METAL AND BODYBUILDING"
> 
> Working out :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Working out:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Working out(Working my liver out )
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Preforming the second work out ;D
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Posting stupid pictures online while half drunk and embarrassing myself online :-\



If I ever start a gang you'll be hearing from me


----------



## FortePenance

Shit man, you are ripped. @[email protected]

Asides from @[email protected] at anton, I had a good gym session today. I'm really pleased with my progress as i've pretty much doubled the weight that I started out at doing bicep curls (7.5kg > 15kg) and about to move onto 17.5. I haven't improved as much with the other muscles and i'm afraid my deltoids are unfortunately shit. I need to work on the "swimming muscles" too cuz there's meant to be a interhouse swimming competition coming up. D: And also been trying to improve my long distance running, to see if I can break the school record this year, in December. >_>

I've taken monthly pics too but i'm planning on posting half at once at the 3 month mark so it's a bit easier to see progress. I've also gained 4lb since i started. I think my goal of 75kg is/was way too unrealistic and i'll probably just say fuck that and just see how much I can gain.


----------



## budda

i went to the gym for an hour and a half today, and almost passed out afterwards when i got home.


----------



## Jason

Drew said:


> I hate you Jason.


----------



## B Lopez

My trainer took pics of the class working out today.


----------



## B Lopez

havent puked since tuesday


----------



## DelfinoPie

So I went a little off course since Thursday last week and indulged in:

Large salted popcorn + large fanta (whilst viewing Hellboy II....)
A Pizza with anchovies, prawns and black olives
A chorizo and halloumi burger (which, might I add, is SOOOOO good)
2x Doner Burgers with mint sauce 

However, my weight hasn't even shifted half-a-pound  Maybe I've cracked my metabolism with all that water, eating every 3 hours and cycling!


----------



## budda

I plan on hitting the gym today - didnt go yesterday, didnt go the day before... last time i was there was monday


----------



## B Lopez

in black


----------



## yellowv

B Lopez said:


> in black




Who fuckin cares Bobby. More pics of the chick all the way in the right corner.


----------



## yellowv

In all seriousness I just noticed this post and I think I'm gonna have to get in with you guys. I am 5'10" about 210. Got this damn beer belly I need to get rid of and I have one of these sitting in my spare bedroom...




Also my buddy has an olympic bench in his garage and lifts a few days a week.I think it's time to buff up bitches. Heres a pic of me in all my glory now....


----------



## budda

you look like a white, military version of me 

im about the same height, and about the same weight


----------



## B Lopez

yellowv said:


> Who fuckin cares Bobby. More pics of the chick all the way in the right corner.



Fuck off 

But yeah, she is pretty damn good looking.


----------



## TomAwesome

You should know better than to post pictures of yourself around here if there's a semi-attractive female _anywhere_ in the picture. Nobody will see you.


----------



## B Lopez

Ran 2 miles in 12:16.81 this morning.

No puke.


----------



## budda

no puke is good!

i should hit the gym, it closes in less then 4 hours. at least do some interval training on the bike...

but i havent eaten since 11 and im running on 4 hours sleep.. what the hell am i doing to myself


----------



## DelfinoPie

budda said:


> no puke is good!
> 
> i should hit the gym, it closes in less then 4 hours. at least do some interval training on the bike...
> 
> but i havent eaten since 11 and im running on 4 hours sleep.. what the hell am i doing to myself



Hehe don't beat yourself up about it, you sound like you're doing great from what I've read of your posts 

You'll probably sleep like a log tonight 

I'm going to play football (soccer) tomorrow for the first time in ages. I usually put it off for many reasons, the field that we usually play in is like 2 miles from where I live but close to everyone else, so I'm knackered by the time I get there. However, tomorrow I'm riding my bike up there...no excuses! Plus, it'll be the last time I see some of the guys because they're going back to university for their final year in like a weeks time.

Hoping to get back into swimming into the next few weeks. Nothing wakes you up more than an early morning swim!


----------



## budda

so its 8pm and im lying on my bed with my laptop making plans, and the gym closes in 2 hrs.

i plan on being KO'd by 9...


----------



## DelfinoPie

I just got back from playing football.

I cycled the two miles there, played for 2-3 hours and worked my tits off, even scored a few times. I surprised myself at how good I was 

Cycled back and I feel amazing...fucked, but amazing.


----------



## Drew

Still leveled off at 190 here... :/


----------



## Papa Shank

I think I'm going to have to get back into exercise and nutrition starting Thursday, focussing on the big three and running twice on workout days (road running in the morning pre-breakfast going for best time over a set distance and treadmill running going for best distance over a set time). Also worth noting that the only reason I'll be doing anything before breakfast is to unload my colon (anything over 2 miles of fast paced running seems to do the trick).

Can't wait to pig out on clean food


----------



## budda

havent been to the gym since friday.

sick, not eating right, sleep is iffy..  it'll throw a kink in the works for a bit


----------



## FortePenance

I'm sick, I sprained my finger and have an essay to write but i'll probably go on Friday anyway. I was considering going tonight but I figured resting my newly hurt finger would be a better alternative.

And doing my homework. >_>


----------



## DelfinoPie

So I'm kind of walking funny today, all that running around yesterday has shocked my legs into doing something! 

Weights today, and then cycling before dinner


----------



## B Lopez

10 miles in 30 minutes on the bike today. 

Drew/other bike people, how long should that take me?


----------



## Jason

B Lopez said:


> 10 miles in 30 minutes on the bike today.
> 
> Drew/other bike people, how long should that take me?



Thats a pace of 20 miles an hour. Seems pretty damn good to me.


----------



## kmanick

when I was training for my Sprint this past August I was riding 10 miles in 20 minutes and then immediately running 4 miles as close to or under 32 minutes as I could.
My cardio went way up this summer doing that every other morning before work. 
10 miles in thirty minutes is pretty good. 3 minute miles.
I'm down to 208 (from 218 in July).


----------



## DelfinoPie

Football again tomorrow, possiby, the forecast is one of heavy rain 

Either way, cycling and weights every day until Christmas seems do-able regardless of the weather


----------



## B Lopez

Did "Tabata" this morning.

Afternoon:
5k on the C2 rower: 23:37



kmanick said:


> 10 miles in thirty minutes is pretty good. 3 minute miles.



but i run a sub 6 min mile  so it's like wtf to me


----------



## Gilbucci

Got my diet in check again  I was going to exercise tonight, but I feel sick as a dog, so I'll do it tomorrow. I'm at around 190 right now (I'm 6 feet tall) and I want to get around 170-175.


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## B Lopez

Today:

Morning:

400m run on front and back side of 7 rounds (prior to round 1, after round 7)

7 rounds for time:
7 pistols (one leg)
7 turkish get ups (one arm)
7 pistols (opposite leg)
7 turkish get ups (opposite arm)
7 pull ups
7 burpees
7 elbows to knees
Time: 37:31

Afternoon:

Some stairs. 5 run, 1 left leg hop, 1 right leg hop, 1 both leg hop. Puke. 13min.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s255/b_lopez_metal/fc93d70a.jpg


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## FortePenance

Those stairs look really cool man. >_>

Anyway here's a pic of me, i'm a giant queer.


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## Anton

Winter is coming so I need to be prepared to gain a lot of mass


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## Drew

B Lopez said:


> 10 miles in 30 minutes on the bike today.
> 
> Drew/other bike people, how long should that take me?



Depends what you're riding on. Level terrain, minimal to no headwind, no traffic lights or rtoad crossings you have to stop at, and on a road bike (super-low rolling resistance), you should be able to get that up to high 20's, maybe even over 30. Mountain bike on the same terrain, it's a bit more respectable. 

Rolling ups and downs, and your average speed is naturally going to drop a lot, so if there were some significant hill climbs in there that's not bad at all. 

FWIW, there's this bike path near me that I ride end to end every now and then. It's about 26 miles round trip, and including stopping for traffic/other pedestrians and crossings, and the fact it goes slightly uphill for 2/3 of the way out, then slightly down, I've gotten as fast as sub 1:20 end to end, about an average of 22 miles an hour. Given a lesser pedestrian load and some lucky breaks on the crossings, I'm hoping to crack one hour by the end of the season.

190.0 this morning, still - I've had zero time to excersize lately. :/


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## B Lopez

This morning:

Squats @ 315 lbs/143 kg @ 5x5
Then some sprints. 

Drew, you probably wont get any less than 187 with your size/workout. Start working on how you look. 

Do your pecs get sore when you bike? By the time I'm done they're cramping and sore for daaaays.


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## FortePenance

I'm hoping to break 150lb soon. I'm 149lb atm. Hopefully 155 by the time this whole thing ends, that would be great.


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## ILdÐÆMcº³

I lost a pant size in the last 3 weeks but no weight. Which is alright because I would assume that means I've also made muscle gains.


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## willith

DelfinoPie said:


> Either way, cycling and weights every day until Christmas seems do-able regardless of the weather




Everyday will lead to over-training in no time.....


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## Tiger

ILdÐÆMcº³;1244194 said:


> I lost a pant size in the last 3 weeks but no weight. Which is alright because I would assume that means I've also made muscle gains.



Your weights probably shifting so definitely yes, give yourself a pat on the back.

This sort of goes without saying but use your testosterone to your benefit. We're all dudes here. Get competitive, workout with other guys and do your best to best them, feel guilty if you lose, etc. Join in on some kind of local pickup game, like basketball or baseball or anything that you can play for bragging rights.

Having weight loss goals are great and you can reach them, but it takes so long that your determination is bound to waver if you do not get your blood boiling from time to time.


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## budda

I'm back down to 208 most of the time, and i think that im starting to finally lose my flab around the pantline, at least over the belt buckle .

i dunno if i mentioned it, but i have a program for the gym, as well as when im going - so now i can hit the gym 3 times a week and i know when, and i know what im gonna do while i'm there . oh how i want to lose the moobs and the muffintop lol.

I just cant figure out how come i keep running less and less on the treadmill - i think its mostly mental block, but i went from being able to do half an hour and now 20 minutes seems like a chore 

and im trying to eat healthy too, but that has gone a bit downhill since those first two weeks of college


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## Tiger

^ Dude definitely get on a stationary bike for a few weeks. I had bad shin splints this year so for the first month prior to my reentry I rode a stationary and it is so much more fun than running. The one I ride has a random program so each day is different, and the time flies by so much faster than on a treadmill. 

Treadmills suck! I am running on one for the new few weeks and its the most boring thing in the gym. Dont blame yourself if it feels like a chore cause it bloody well is.

Its also easier to get your heart rate low enough so that youre burning fat instead of your carb/protein stores. Just pedaling in la la land for an hour burns 400 calories and it can get way more intense depending on how you work the machine.


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## B Lopez

yay weightlifting

squat cleans, 265lbs.


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## budda

Tiger said:


> ^ Dude definitely get on a stationary bike for a few weeks. I had bad shin splints this year so for the first month prior to my reentry I rode a stationary and it is so much more fun than running. The one I ride has a random program so each day is different, and the time flies by so much faster than on a treadmill.
> 
> Treadmills suck! I am running on one for the new few weeks and its the most boring thing in the gym. Dont blame yourself if it feels like a chore cause it bloody well is.
> 
> Its also easier to get your heart rate low enough so that youre burning fat instead of your carb/protein stores. Just pedaling in la la land for an hour burns 400 calories and it can get way more intense depending on how you work the machine.



fun facts 

1. it being the school gym, if there's a lineup we have to limit our time on cardio machines to 20 minutes.
2. i LIKE the treadmill and jogging!
3. time flies by if you stop paying attention to the clock - i also employ this as best i can while at work .

im not sure what a good heart rate would be for burning fat stores instead of the carbs/proteins.


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## canuck brian

I'm actually staying weight stable but my measurements around the spare tire are going down a little bit. I'm having a lot of issues getting to the gym lately.


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## FortePenance

fucking badass pic bobby.


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## budda

see how bobby's veins are just jumping out of his arms? mine dont do that, ever.

i find myself wondering if im using enough weight when i work out, i dont leave completely exhausted - i know you're not supposed to overdo it, but im not sure if im pushing myself enough.

and i'd love an explanation of how i went from 208 to 212ish? in two days, then from the 212'ish to 209.2 within an hour and a half... i know that going to the gym wont have immediate results and i need to keep it up, but i want to see results  stupid overhang of the belt buckle variety


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## Jason

budda said:


> see how bobby's veins are just jumping out of his arms? mine dont do that, ever.
> 
> i find myself wondering if im using enough weight when i work out, i dont leave completely exhausted - i know you're not supposed to overdo it, but im not sure if im pushing myself enough.
> 
> and i'd love an explanation of how i went from 208 to 212ish? in two days, then from the 212'ish to 209.2 within an hour and a half... i know that going to the gym wont have immediate results and i need to keep it up, but i want to see results  stupid overhang of the belt buckle variety



Weight can vary by like 5lbs in a day. Food,water and waste matter.


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## Jason

Budda have you tried HIIT like I told you to?


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## budda

i set the treadmill to interval and it didnt seem to get me anywhere.

i'll try intervail training on the bike sunday and let you know how it goes.


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## B Lopez

"*The difference between a successful person and others is not a lack of strength, not a lack of knowledge, but rather a lack in will.*" -Vince Lombardi


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## budda

its so true.

and about 30&#37;-50% of the time sums me up nicely.


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## B Lopez

...Im going to make that quote my sig. 

I have tons of "motivational" quotes. I think I'll start posting them more often.


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## budda

make a daily motivational quotes thread! only, it'll be serious


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## B Lopez

budda said:


> make a daily motivational quotes thread! only, it'll be serious



Nah. I'll just post some occasionally. In the end they all say the same thing anyways.


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## budda

true nuff


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## B Lopez

"All of the top achievers I know are life-long learners. Looking for new skills, insights, and ideas. If they're not learning, they're not growing... not moving toward excellence." -Dennis Waitley


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## B Lopez

"The superior man is modest in his speech, but exceeds in his actions." -Confucius


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## -K4G-

Down to 38'' from 42''!!


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## budda

i weighed 204.4lbs yesterday, didn't see that coming! gym again tomorrow 

gotta deal with these lower abs though..


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## FortePenance

Bah, its the last month of this contest (doesn't mean I'll stop come 12/25) and I just don't have enough time to hit the gym thrice a week. I'm only going Thursday and Saturday now... hopefully I'll be able to still put on some good gain though.


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## budda

i weighed just over 202 today. holy shit.


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## FortePenance

@Buds: What are you trying to get down to?

Gah, still only at 150lb. A week left fwiw, I should post pics.


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## budda

you askin me? i'd like to be under 200, but im not too hung up on it.

205 two days ago, 206 today. spent an hour at the gym yesterday.. that place isnt that great.. costs a bit.. i could probably get away with just using my mom's gym lol.


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## B Lopez

Home stretch...


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## FortePenance

budda said:


> you askin me? i'd like to be under 200, but im not too hung up on it.



Yeah sorry, I had space cake on my mind when I was posting hence the "Buds".


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## FortePenance

FortePenance said:


> *Start Date:* 25th June
> *End Date:* Christmas Day
> 
> *Height:* 6ft
> *Weight:*61kg (134.2lb)
> *BMI:* 18.2 (0.3 underweight)
> *Percent Body Fat:* 11.6%
> 
> *Goals:* 70kg in 6 months. Better pectorial/arm/abs definition. I'm flexing my abs in that pic, usually they don't show.  Make ribcage non-visible. >_>



Seeing as how this is over, here are updated stats:

*Height:*6ft
*Weight:* 68kg (150lb) 
*BMI:* 20 - normal weight now woohoo
*Body Fat:* 10.42%

I'll take a pic sometime I guess.


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## B Lopez




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## Anton

*Well since this thread is dying and no one posted for a while...
This is six months ago, i added about 15 pounds since then...Kinda look small in this one
*


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## Anthony

I really haven't gained any muscle what so ever, but I've lost 30 pounds since June 2008.


Anton, that's sick!


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## signalgrey

ive been a swimmer for 15 years. im a lean fucker and i weigh a ton! 

6ft 6 210lbs
59sec 100 breaststroke

w00t.

i got smashed one night and my buddies told me 6 people had to carry me hahahahhaaaaa..sorry guys.


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## Sang-Drax

I'm starting at the gym this month! 

*Height:* 1.84m (roughly 6'1")
*Weight:* 78.5kg (173lb)
*BMI:* 23.1
*Body Fat:* 12.5% - it's ok, but it's all in the belly, which absolutely sucks.


Honestly, I don't know where all my weight comes from. I have no muscles whatsoever and I only have fat in the belly, and it's not even that much. I guess I have adamantium bones or something.

So far, so good... I'm more motivated for working out than ever (even if it's only my first week). My biggest problem is that I've been eating too much bread (albeit whole grained). It's more due to the fact that I study all day and I get bored. I needed something deliciously lean 

Well, one step at a time. Maybe I can reduce my carb intake by cheating a meal with a protein shake 

Wish me luck!


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## SamSam

^ 

Pretty much same situation as you, same weight, but a few cms shorter. All in the belly, it doesn't even look like much. However it's presence annoys me. Started to go running recently ans changed my diet quite a bit cutting out a lot of crap I was eating. Shift work doesn't help but I find the motivation to go for a 30 min run after a nine hour night shift somehow. 

Let's see how it goes...


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## Tiger

This is the (Relatively new) pre BUD/s training guide for SEAL candidates, and everyone should read it.

http://www.sealswcc.com/Assets/docs/training/Physical_Training_Guide.pdf

Its chock full of ways to safely get in good condition.


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## Tiger

First day beneath 140.


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## Marv Attaxx

Me now:
bodyweight: 158 lbs
height 5,8
current bench record: 320 lbs

Just some webcam pic with bad resolution, you can't see the muscle definition and stuff


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## Anthony

Anthony said:


> I'll join.
> 
> Height: 5'10
> Weight: 220
> Waist: 36
> Chest: Puny


Forgot I posted in this thread. I think it's pretty good to say I'm 195 now.


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## eclipsex1

Most recent picture I have:






One showing you how fat I actually am that's a bit older:





Height: ~5'11
Weight: Usually 180, although I've caught it at 160 and 205 before. Either my scale is messed up, or my body is haha.
No idea on the measurements.

I need to start working out and running again. =x. Lately I've been going through kind of a depression, and haven't been working out much. I still have time to lose some weight, though. I'm only 16, so hopefully I'll eventually get it off. =x

Anyway, there. Haha.


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## FortePenance

holy shit this thread is still stickied. this was the thread that prompted me to start working out 2 years ago and looking at my original post in this thread I can't believe I was that light. In 2 years, I've gained 17kg, done without supplements although i've started taking creatine since the past week. they make my farts stink.


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## groph

Alright boys, I think I'm in this. Though I'm probably not going to be getting jacked or anything, I just want to lose some fat.

Height: 6 feet even

Weight: 250-255
Waist: 40, I can wriggle into the odd 38.
Chest: No clue. Bigger than my waist.

I have a big frame, broad shoulders, I am the perfect candidate to become a manbear but for now I just want to lose the gut and tits. I'll explore the idea of gyms but I don't want to get huge, maybe put on a bit more bulk so I look good in a tight shirt but nothing super serious.


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## chimpinatux

Wow, just found this thread, you all make me feel tiny, gonna try and put on some bulk

At the moment, 

height: 5 10
weight: 128 lbs...
just took some measurements and i have a waist of 30" and chest of 35", 
And im 21

Crap im gonna have to do some serious eating...


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## groph

So far I've been eating only when hungry and I haven't overeaten since Friday. I know that's only a couple of days but that's still an improvement. Generally for a "snack" I'd make 2 enormous peanut butter and jam sandwiches. No more. I'd often eat an entire box of Kraft Dinner to myself with nothing else to do with it. Now, I'll have a third of a box and eat some goddamn vegetables with it and save the other 2/3rds for goddamn later.

Today, I exercised some goddamn portion control and only had a bit of chicken when I'd normally eat like half the fucking thing. And guess what? I was goddamn full. I just ate a fuckton of salad and when I was done with that shit, my slow ass stomach finally told my fast fucking brain that it was full. And guess what I dressed that salad with? Fucking Italian. None of this fattening horse jizz Ranch bullshit. Fuck that noise.

So an hour ago I got legit hungry again. Fuck yeah. That meant I didn't eat a boatload at supper and I actually burned a meal so I had a bowl of good-ass homemade chicken noodle soup. One bowl. Not a bowl and a bunch of other bullshit I don't need.

Tomorrow I'm having a fucking omelette with canned spinach. Fucking love canned spinach, that shit is real. Mean and fucking green. That's how I roll now. Fuck your white bread and giant bowls of pasta. Fuck your excessive carb consumption. My fat cells will happily commit suicide over the next few months.


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## UnderTheSign

Time for a post on this one... Just so I have people to remind me of this stuff.

As of 6 July '11:
Height - 1.96m (6'5")
Weight - 81.35kg (179lbs)
BFP - 14.1%
BMI - 21.2

I'm taking a month off in August for some extensive traveling etc, but I'll be doing as much exercises as I can while I'm away and plan on going back to the gym asap.

Started my 3-day split monday. Chest/triceps, legs/shoulders, back/biceps. Varying ab/gut workouts every session. 15 minutes of interval cardio as well.
Not taking any supplements yet, but I'm lowering my alcohol and salty/pork meat intake and trying to eat better. I'll be looking into supplements sometime soon. 

Main goal is to gain strenght/muscle mass and lower my BFP just a few %. We'll see how this goes. Lets do it!


----------



## eurolove

chimpinatux said:


> Wow, just found this thread, you all make me feel tiny, gonna try and put on some bulk
> 
> At the moment,
> 
> height: 5 10
> weight: 128 lbs...
> just took some measurements and i have a waist of 30" and chest of 35",
> And im 21
> 
> Crap im gonna have to do some serious eating...



if you listen to anything listen to this, 6 evenly spaced meals providing 24grams of protein is a must if you wanna bulk up. also lift heavy weights leaving each muscle group of your body time to recover.


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## chimpinatux

eurolove said:


> if you listen to anything listen to this, 6 evenly spaced meals providing 24grams of protein is a must if you wanna bulk up. also lift heavy weights leaving each muscle group of your body time to recover.



Havnt logged in in ages, so never saw this, but i have to say its definately on the right track, ive been doing something similar for the past 4 months now and im up to 142 lbs


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## UnderTheSign

UnderTheSign said:


> Time for a post on this one... Just so I have people to remind me of this stuff.
> 
> As of 6 July '11:
> Height - 1.96m (6'5")
> Weight - 81.35kg (179lbs)
> BFP - 14.1%
> BMI - 21.2


Started my new 3-day split 2 weeks ago... Currently weigh 85kg @ 15% BF.


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## SnowfaLL

I dunno if I ever posted in this thread before, but I finally started getting in shape. Not for the contest, just becuase I am entering the Canadian Forces next month and need to get in shape lol. I really needed a DRASTIC lifestyle change in so many ways, so this seemed like the best option, especially a kick in the butt physically (I work best under pressure)

So from the beginning of November, I was 235 (5'10) and couldnt run more than 2 minutes before gassing.. and I started my workouts pretty light and dieting is hard, but its coming along. Mid December last weigh-in was 208 - can run significantly longer and can hit 35 pushups/situps in good form.

Still far from my goals, but I have one month before I get on a plane. Gonna step it up a notch with the dieting, running, long distance walking and maybe even start something like P90X or Insanity for 30 days (might help) 

I must say dieting is the hardest part of getting into shape.. I have had some big slipups lately; one weekend my parents went to Boston for a Bruins/Leafs game, and bought me and my brother like tons of junkfood (pop, chips, hungryman frozen dinners ugh) and last week I was doing some massive work for a job, so I bought a case of pepsi and a huge brownie =/ But mostly its just all water and healthy foods. Gonna make it a strict goal starting wednesday (after my birthday) that I will not drink ANY pop at all except for XMas day... and keep on the salads/etc.

Its progress! but I wish I started this years ago.. I really do feel better, and getting this gut off is nice.


----------



## Fiction

I'd love to get fitter, I could probably jog for about 1km before I caved and started walking. I'm not overweight or anything, I've got a little bit of a gut, I'd just like to start jogging in the morning or something, just to improve fitness.. and maybe some weights or something, just tone up a bit. I've got an app called Couch to 10km, which has a day by day regime of running, with like 30 seconds jog, 5 minutes walk for the first day and so forth. I might start doing that eventually, I've been meaning too for about a year


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

Start today. Procrastination will screw you harder the longer you wait, as I'm sure most of us here are aware


----------



## SnowfaLL

speaking of procrastinating; coming back from xmas break is soo damn hard. I didnt eat as much as I usually do over xmas's, not much junkfood at all just a lot of turkey, but my running has slowed to pretty much once a week, and just started my weights/pushups/situps again yesterday (that makes it about 8 days off, since I stopped on Dec 21st which was my birthday) 

I do feel quite rested, like when I went for a run my legs didnt hurt at all like they were for the past month, and my arms feel great too due to the light workload, but my cardio has dropped some which unfortunately is my biggest weakness already. 

Another factor is how damn cold it has become suddenly over the past week; back when I ran lots before xmas, the temp was always between 0 and -10, now winter kicked in and its like consistently -20 with windchill. Makes outside running so much harder (not to mention icy sidewalks) but oh well. Guess I have no choice but to do it. I think its gonna get back down to -8 this afternoon so planning my run for that time.


----------



## Evergrey

Its like armaments race these days.
Girls are getting bigger tits/ass/lips/whatever and
guys bigger muscles. I wonder when its like who has biggest banana or push-ups in their pants...


----------



## agengxsi

me with black cap...at the national bodyfitness championship....
im from indonesia...


----------



## TRENCHLORD

But how much can you bench hahaha.
Seriously though, wow, fantastic conditioning 4sure.
I haven't been that ripped since,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,well,,,,,,,,,,never.


----------



## agengxsi

the max bench only 150lbs...hihihi im only asian weak guy


----------



## avenger

is fucking baffled by people saying they are fat at ~160lb and 6 foot...


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## ghostred7

**EDIT: Mods pls delete, apologies about the necro**


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