# Lone gunman opens fire at the dark knight rises premier in denver, co.



## Tang (Jul 20, 2012)

BBC News - 'Ten shot dead' at Batman film premiere in Denver



> Ten people have been killed in a shooting at a Batman film premiere in the US city of Denver, local media say.
> 
> More than 35 people had been injured in the incident, it is reported.
> 
> ...


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## drmosh (Jul 20, 2012)

fucking atrocious. What is wrong with people? Shooting kids and babies at point blank range? jesus christ.


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## Tang (Jul 20, 2012)

this lady was in the theater at the time.

Someone came into our theater at the midnight release of Dark Knight Rises and began opening fire. Who here on Reddit can help me calm my nerves? : AskReddit


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## ShadyDavey (Jul 20, 2012)

Dafuq is wrong with people? 

14 dead now. 

This world fills me with despair at moments like this - condolences to all the families.


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 20, 2012)

That is awful.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jul 20, 2012)

a video of some of the aftermath


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## flexkill (Jul 20, 2012)

Jesus....what the fuck is with Batman that's got everybody ape shit???? FFS this is just stupid


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## Tang (Jul 20, 2012)

I've heard reports on Twitter that the shooter was a 24 year old white male. God, is something in the water out west? Sad


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## Fiction (Jul 20, 2012)

Woah.. What the fuck.. Speechless.


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## Prydogga (Jul 20, 2012)

The telegraph article I read said one of the gunmen shot a baby at point blank range, and the majority of of people killed were teenagers. Absolutely terrifying stuff.


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## Korbain (Jul 20, 2012)

14 dead, 50 wounded in shooting at Colorado theater, police chief says - CNN.com

14 dead and 50 taken to hospital.

So terrible, what the fuck is wrong with some people. I'm suprised he surrendered so easily considering what he done and that he had body armor on (which you'd think meant he was ready to take the police on).
Maybe we might hear why this sick fuck did what he did since they did arrest him. 
Condolences to the families/friends of anyone wounded or killed.


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## Prydogga (Jul 20, 2012)

This is terrible, but repost. There's an active thread in (I think) off topic.


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## Korbain (Jul 20, 2012)

Ah ok, didn't look there lol thought it would belong in here and was suprised i didn't see one so i thought i would post just incase. Thanks for the heads up


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## flexkill (Jul 20, 2012)

Fucking sad!

Police scanner as it went down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okBR5DJnOPo&feature=player_embedded#!


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## Leuchty (Jul 20, 2012)

Fucking hell...

Take his eyes, cut out his tongue, paralyse him and let him sit in a cell for the rest of his life.

Fucking disgusting.


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## Guitarmiester (Jul 20, 2012)

I wonder what kind of motive this guy had. I'm about 45 minutes north of Aurora, but that's still really disturbing.


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## Don Vito (Jul 20, 2012)

So he was arrested right?


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## loktide (Jul 20, 2012)

this is truly fucked up. 

thinking about a 3 month-old baby getting shot by some lunatic just messed me up inside. especially since i have small kids.


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## Estilo (Jul 20, 2012)

This is what happens when you allow civilians to own guns. Where's the logic in that anyway. This is why America's fucked up.


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## Danukenator (Jul 20, 2012)

Damn, I just saw this on BBC. 12 dead but 50 people shot! Man, the numbers don't usually every get that high.


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## flexkill (Jul 20, 2012)

Estilo said:


> This is what happens when you allow civilians to own guns. Where's the logic in that anyway. This is why America's fucked up.


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## L1ght (Jul 20, 2012)

Estilo said:


> This is what happens when you allow civilians to own guns. Where's the logic in that anyway. This is why America's fucked up.




Sorry bud, but that's not why America is fucked up. Not everyone who owns a gun is a raving lunatic. Generalizing will get you no where.


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## mcleanab (Jul 20, 2012)

Estilo said:


> This is what happens when you allow civilians to own guns. Where's the logic in that anyway. This is why America's fucked up.



Wow... really?


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## Mexi (Jul 20, 2012)

saying lax gun laws is the reason why America's fucked up is a gross oversimplification of the actual reasons why America is so fucked up (but what country isn't these days)

on topic though, It's really unfortunate that some batshit lunatic uses something like this (a goddamn movie release ffs) to go nuts on the world, irrevocably ruining people's lives on a night that should have been about fun. jesus, if the guy hated everything so much, he should have just blown his own brains out, left the rest of the world out of his psychosis.

sad for the families, hope they're able to come to terms with this at some point.


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## feilong29 (Jul 20, 2012)

This is 5 mins up the road from me... what is the gain???


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## Estilo (Jul 20, 2012)

L1ght said:


> Sorry bud, but that's not why America is fucked up. Not everyone who owns a gun is a raving lunatic. Generalizing will get you no where.



Apology accepted =). In the meantime, why don't you explain how allowing any average joe out there possession of firearm makes America a better place than what it can be without those laws.


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## Estilo (Jul 20, 2012)

Mexi said:


> saying lax gun laws is the reason why America's fucked up is a gross oversimplification of the actual reasons why America is so fucked up (but what country isn't these days)



My phrasing might have been misleading, what I meant to say was theillogical laws and conducts, which includes gun laws, not the gun laws themselves.


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## eaeolian (Jul 20, 2012)

Let's stick to the news and not turn this into yet another gun control debate?


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 20, 2012)

How about both the pro and anti gun people in this thread shut the fuck up? You've both got nothing to prove, and that's not what this goddamn thread is about. Have some respect for all the people who were shot and the families of the ones who were killed and cut your political whiney bullshit for a few minutes.

I reported this thread too, so hopefully a mod can keep it clean.
EDIT: Thank you eaeolian.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 20, 2012)

From what I've read, this happened roughly 13 miles away from Littleton, CO which was where the Columbine shooting happened. Judging from the age of the shooter, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think he was a trenchcoat mafia member that went undetected. Of course this is just speculation on my end and I await more info as police have not yet released the motive for the shooting.

Edit:
This site is reporting that the suspect may have been a member of a militant faction of occupy wall street:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...killed-12-midnight-Batman-premier-Denver.html



> He was not on any watch list that would have alerted authorities that he was dangerous, officials told NBC.
> As speculation mounts about the motive behind the mass shooting, one private investigator has said that Holmes may have been part of Occupy Wall Street's most violent faction, Occupy Black Bloc.
> Bill Warner told how the Batman movie portrays the OWS crowd in a negative vein, leading him to believe that may have been a cause behind the gunman's rage.
> Holmes kicked down a door to enter the packed theater, dressed in black and wearing a gas mask and bullet-proof vest.
> He threw a smoke grenade and waited for it to explode before he started firing randomly into the audience with two pistols, a shotgun and what is believed to be an assault rifle, police said.



Wtf? There are OWS member that wanna shoot shit up?


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## eaeolian (Jul 20, 2012)

I think that's almost ridiculously speculative at this point.


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## revclay (Jul 20, 2012)

This is just beyond awful. I hope all of the Denver forumites' friends and families are OK. 

I know it says I am based in Ithaca, NY (which I am for the time being), but I am from Denver and my band is still based there. The singer in my band had free tickets to go to this showing and didn't go. I know two other friends that would totally go to something like this but haven't heard back from them yet. Absolute madness.

EDIT: He actually had two free tickets to any movie and was planning on going to that showing but ended up not going. Either way, it is crazy how such seemingly minor decisions can be so major.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 20, 2012)

eaeolian said:


> I think that's almost ridiculously speculative at this point.



Right, and I've stated as such. And in my edit, I've shown that I was wrong and that it's related to something else.


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## eaeolian (Jul 20, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> I'm just mad he couldn't wait the 4 months until Twilight: Breaking Dawn Part 2.



You'll have a week of not posting to consider it.


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## L1ght (Jul 20, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> I'm just mad he couldn't wait the 4 months until Twilight: Breaking Dawn Part 2.



Are you serious? Your joke was in extremely poor taste. No one deserves to die just because of the movie they choose to watch. People were killed here jackass. KILLED. Their families and loved ones will never recover.

Edit* Ninja'd


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jul 20, 2012)

Damn this is... fuck. I mean, why does this shit have to happen?

If you want to feel bad, here's the Twitter of one of the victims, a young hockey writer who also narrowly missed the Eaton Centre shooting in Toronto last month. https://twitter.com/JessicaRedfield
Seriously, hearing about the deaths is one thing but once a name and a face is put to the victims it's just hard to handle.

RIP to all the victims.


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## SenorDingDong (Jul 20, 2012)

The amount of apparent premeditation that when into this is disturbing. It's terrible that someone would do something like this; all those people who went out with friends or on dates or simply alone for the love of a movie, looking to have a good time at the end of the week. It's so fucked. Makes me wonder if we will be seeing tighter security measures at movie theaters as a result, such as what has been put in place on account of 9/11 for airports, Columbine for schools and other such tragedies. 

Regardless of the future, thoughts and prayers to the families of those who were killed, and those who were injured.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm usually a pacifist, but I think this man should be put to death. 

Our justice system is flawed. If he does get life in prison, I hope the inmates hear about this story and kill him.

It's digusting what people are capable of these days.


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## revclay (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm just surprised the gunman didn't kill himself as is the usual case on these scenarios. We will actually get to hear his rationale for committing such a heinous act, which is rare. I don't know what would drive someone to do such a thing but it will be very interesting to hear what he has to say. It's almost like he wanted to be caught based off the stories I've been reading so far.


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## Necris (Jul 20, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> From what I've read, this happened roughly 13 miles away from Littleton, CO which was where the Columbine shooting happened. Judging from the age of the shooter, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to think he was a trenchcoat mafia member that went undetected. Of course this is just speculation on my end and I await more info as police have not yet released the motive for the shooting.
> 
> Edit:
> This site is reporting that the suspect may have been a member of a militant faction of occupy wall street:
> ...


It's actually a pretty big stretch and here is why:
Columbine happened 13 years ago (April 20th, 1999), unless the shooter was 11 or 12 when he entered high school the age wouldn't line up, if he were any older he would be between 26 (unlikely) and 31. There is no evidence the Columbine Shooters were actually part of the "Trench Coat Mafia" only one member of the group was a friend of theirs. A 1998 yearbook photo of the group doesn't include either shooter and most of the Trench Coat Mafia had graduated or left the school before the massacre. Early media speculation is what perpetuated this connection.


OWS are like any other movement, they have the potential to attract people with extreme and militant views.


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## right_to_rage (Jul 20, 2012)

What the hell was a baby doing in a midnight screening of an adult film? Also, he kicked down the door? Movie theatre doors are not supposed to open in, only out because of fire regulations. 

This sort of thing is going to help push the upcoming UN gun ban laws. Anyways, very shocking and a terrible tragedy.


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## feilong29 (Jul 20, 2012)

right_to_rage said:


> What the hell was a baby doing in a midnight screening of an adult film? Also, he kicked down the door? Movie theatre doors are not supposed to open in, only out because of fire regulations.
> 
> This sort of thing is going to help push the upcoming UN gun ban laws. Anyways, very shocking and a terrible tragedy.



Supposedly, from a witness testimony, a person in the front row got a phone call during the movie, walked over to the emergency exit and let the gunman in...


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## technomancer (Jul 20, 2012)

Estilo said:


> This is what happens when you allow civilians to own guns. Where's the logic in that anyway. This is why America's fucked up.


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## Randy (Jul 20, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> Wtf? There are OWS member that wanna shoot shit up?





Necris said:


> OWS are like any other movement, they have the potential to attract people with extreme and militant views.



Considering his name is pretty generic (James Holmes), predicting his political affiliations are a function of what bullshit news source you're collecting for information from. 

Example:

Aurora shooting: ABC News draws possible Jim Holmes Tea Party connection - POLITICO.com


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## Xaios (Jul 20, 2012)

Damn...


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## Necris (Jul 20, 2012)

Randy said:


> Considering his name is pretty generic (James Holmes), predicting his political affiliations are a function of what bullshit news source you're collecting for information from.



America: We're more than happy to politicize the slaughter of your children.


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 20, 2012)

I'm not going to even get started on what is to blame for instigating or allowing this man's actions. My heart goes out to the families of those lost in this horrible incident.


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## Xaios (Jul 20, 2012)

Necris said:


> America: We're more than happy to politicize the slaughter of your children.



As crass as it is for news sources to go looking for a sensationalist story like this, some of the people that are hurting right now as a result of this event would probably be quite willing to take this information, because right now they're emotional and , if the guy turns out not to be a lunatic, people will want to know he did what he did, and will search for an ideology of some kind, be it religious or political, to blame.


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 20, 2012)

CYBERSYN said:


> Take his eyes, cut out his tongue, paralyse him and let him sit in a cell for the rest of his life.



Look dude, I know this whole event is deeply fucked up, and it's undoubtedly horrifying and awful news, but you really are going too far here. That is the kind of torture you don't inflict on anyone, regardless of what they've done to "deserve" it, in your view.

By doing this, we would be as bad as him.

Yes, he took lives, and that is inexcusable, but this kind of barbarism is not the answer in any case. You're just basing this on your shocked initial reaction, and not really thinking it through at all. It isn't justice, it's revenge. Revenge is for children.

We don't live in the Middle Ages any more.


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## Xaios (Jul 20, 2012)

Kinda funny... okay, maybe that's not the right term. Interesting though, that Batman Begins has a quote about that very idea:


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## synrgy (Jul 20, 2012)

When I heard about this incident on my way to work this morning, it reminded me of an incident that happened at our local multiplex when I was living in Centreville, VA. This was back somewhere between 1994-1995, and the movie was Higher Learning. Some idiot stood up in the middle of the theater and shouted "White power!" before walking out, and was subsequently shot dead outside the theater a few minutes later.

I mention that incident because - having the hindsight related to it - I know that it's now 20 years later, and that there was never another similar incident, despite the fact that security was never increased, no metal detectors were added, etc. 

TL;DR = I sincerely hope that America doesn't do it's typical post-9/11-overreaction-thing and go crazy over this terrible tragedy, but the reactions I'm seeing around my circle of the web today are not giving me much hope in that regard.


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## habicore_5150 (Jul 20, 2012)

Whole situation sucks even more since I have family that lives in Colorado (well, they live in the Springs, but still)


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 20, 2012)

Some Fucking Guy At Warner Bros. Wondering What Shooting Of 12 Means For Ticket Sales | The Onion - America's Finest News Source


Posted because I saw someone say something on facebook about WB considering pulling the movie from theaters for two months.


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## mcleanab (Jul 20, 2012)

revclay said:


> I'm just surprised the gunman didn't kill himself as is the usual case on these scenarios. We will actually get to hear his rationale for committing such a heinous act, which is rare. I don't know what would drive someone to do such a thing but it will be very interesting to hear what he has to say. It's almost like he wanted to be caught based off the stories I've been reading so far.



I, for one, am interested in NOTHING this guy has to say... he's beyond nuts... his answer to "why" might as well be "purple banana pudding cups." Whatever it is will not make sense to anyone else but him and his fucked up head. His "why" is irrelevant. He should be thrown into fast moving traffic or better yet, thrown into a cage with a very hungry tiger. At least THAT would be good and useful...


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 20, 2012)

mcleanab said:


> ... He should be thrown into fast moving traffic or better yet, thrown into a cage with a very hungry tiger. At least THAT would be good and useful...



How would it be good and useful?

It would provide a fleeting sense of satisfaction to those who secretly get off on bloodshed and vengeance, and nothing more.

Would it bring back any of the victims? No.

I can't understand why people think death is the one true option for this guy. Yeah, he's fucked up and is clearly an awful (not to mention a very probably mentally ill) human being, but he is a human being nonetheless, and - though you may not want to hear this - he theoretically has the same rights as any of us. Put him in prison, certainly, and for a very, very long time, but where is the need to kill him?

Oh, that's right - there _is_ no need. It would make you as bad as him. Death is death.

More death is not the answer. It's not only immoral, but counter-intuitive, to suggest that execution is the best way to deal with this.


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## revclay (Jul 20, 2012)

mcleanab said:


> I, for one, am interested in NOTHING this guy has to say... he's beyond nuts... his answer to "why" might as well be "purple banana pudding cups." Whatever it is will not make sense to anyone else but him and his fucked up head. His "why" is irrelevant. He should be thrown into fast moving traffic or better yet, thrown into a cage with a very hungry tiger. At least THAT would be good and useful...



To each their own. I think it would be nice if we could learn more about what disturbs people such as this and use that knowledge to help people and try and prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. Who knows. He may be beyond hope but I think we have much to learn about the human psyche and understanding these sorts of pathologies could be pretty useful.


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## mcleanab (Jul 20, 2012)

BucketheadRules said:


> How would it be good and useful?
> 
> It would provide a fleeting sense of satisfaction to those who secretly get off on bloodshed and vengeance, and nothing more.
> 
> ...



Yes, it's a feeling... yes, it's a vent because something so senseless happened by someone who made a choice to do what he did... sure... I'm venting. And that part of me "feels" that he's given up his right to draw breath because he took that right at least 12 fold. Feeding him to something that needs meat to live would at least make his existence have meaning that we can understand. As of right now, his existence means less than nothing other than the horror he brought to people (who survived) merely having a celebration of some art in a community setting with friends and family. 

I don't see much difference in defending my home and loved ones if it's invaded by someone with mal intent and making them eat a rusty machete over and over for making that attempt and the difference in doing the same after the fact. But I'm just ranting here because it's horrible. Putting that fucker in a prison takes effort, time, tax payer money and food that someone else deserves to eat. Fuck him.


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## mcleanab (Jul 20, 2012)

revclay said:


> To each their own. I think it would be nice if we could learn more about what disturbs people such as this and use that knowledge to help people and try and prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. Who knows. He may be beyond hope but I think we have much to learn about the human psyche and understanding these sorts of pathologies could be pretty useful.



Amen to that... ounce of prevention vs. a pound of cure. I just don't think we'll understand... I suspect that he comes from something horrible... monsters are usually created, not born.


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## Kwampis (Jul 20, 2012)

mcleanab said:


> Putting that fucker in a prison takes effort, time, tax payer money and food that someone else deserves to eat. Fuck him.



For the record I agree with BucketheadRules. I understand the feeling, but I don't think the justice system should be about revenge. I think it should be about preventing things like this from happening in the future. With regards to this comment though it is actually counter-intuitively cheaper to give someone a life sentence than it is to put them on death row.

My sympathies to the victims.


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## mcleanab (Jul 20, 2012)

Kwampis said:


> For the record I agree with BucketheadRules. I understand the feeling, but I don't think the justice system should be about revenge. I think it should be about preventing things like this from happening in the future. With regards to this comment though it is actually counter-intuitively cheaper to give someone a life sentence than it is to put them on death row.
> 
> My sympathies to the victims.



I agree as well... my comments are purely knee-jerk shock at how horrible that must have been (I feel safe enough to put thoughts like that on display to a forum full of folks who, for the most part, write, produce, listen to overtly aggressive music but are nice adjusted and center folks - which, should be part of the research into such behavior)... but, that being said, I didn't say put him on death row. I said throw him in with a tiger.


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## Kwampis (Jul 20, 2012)

mcleanab said:


> I agree as well...



Fair enough. Plenty of people do seem to mean it when they say things like that, and I think it's fair to call them out on it. I think it's very much a "two wrongs don't make a right" situation. As awful as a situation like this is, brutalizing the perpetrator won't fix anything.

Back on topic though, I agree with whoever said it would be good to have some insight into why the gunman did this.


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## Augminished (Jul 20, 2012)

Wow this really hit home. I live about 20 to 30 min away from the theater. I actually know a friend of a friend that was there. She is fine just a little shook up. What a fucked up world we live in. I live within walking distance to columbine high school and I played my bagpipes for President Clinton when they had a memorial service. I don't think we should compare them but it my friend's mom who witnessed columbine and still lives right behind the school got pretty freaked out. I don't think it will have the same impact but it might change how we go to the movies.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 20, 2012)

Kwampis said:


> Back on topic though, I agree with whoever said it would be good to have some insight into why the gunman did this.



Yes I agree, and that's exactly what my brain switches to anytime there's a really messed up situation. I always wanna know the why of it because it helps my mind process the gravity of the situation. I apologize if this seems to have come up above thoughts of the victims and their families; of course my thoughts and prayers are with them first and foremost. I certainly have no desire to politicize their deaths and suffering; I (like a lot of people) simply wanna know why this had to happen. Why did good people who harmed no one and just wanted to watch a badass movie have to be shot up by some loner with an axe to grind? That's the million dollar question for me because if we can ever find a real answer to it, we can take more preventative measures to ensure other people aren't hurt in the future.


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## Augminished (Jul 20, 2012)

^ I don't know for sure. But, my guess is one of two things. 

1. He is bat shit crazy.
2. Meth

His mother said, "I am not surprised". All of his neighbors said that when they tried to talk to him he never said anything to them. Something has been up for awhile is what this tells me.


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## Guitarmiester (Jul 20, 2012)

feilong29 said:


> Supposedly, from a witness testimony, a person in the front row got a phone call during the movie, walked over to the emergency exit and let the gunman in...



The guy bought a ticket, sat through the previews, left during the last couple previews through the fire exit at the front, propped the exit open, got suited/armed up, and headed back in through the exit he propped open. 

This guy has it all planned out. Even his apartment is rigged with explosives and flammables. I've been waiting all day to hear if there was any kind of motive or anything to prompt such a disturbing incident.


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## L1ght (Jul 20, 2012)

BucketheadRules said:


> How would it be good and useful?
> 
> It would provide a fleeting sense of satisfaction to those who secretly get off on bloodshed and vengeance, and nothing more.
> 
> ...




You know what, with all do respect, what are you trying to remind us of here? Our lost fucking humanity? This disgusting waste of air of a person does not deserve sympathy, nor does he deserve any kind of humanity. What he did was INHUMANE, so why does he deserve any kindness/leniency at all, in any form? 

And when you say, "we will be no better then him" if we torture the shit out of him or put him to death, maybe you should go and talk to the families of the deceased, and maybe you should stare at the photos of the dead. Hopefully that will make you think twice about showing ANY sympathy or humanity at all towards this fucking piece of shit.

I don't know a single victim, so this is not me being hot-headed or enraged by what just happened. This is me thinking level headed. I am with Cybersyn on this one. Fuck this piece of shit, whether he is mentally unstable or not. He deserves to be tortured for what he did and deserves to rot in prison until his very last agonizing breath.


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## Xaios (Jul 20, 2012)

L1ght said:


> You know what, with all do respect, what are you trying to remind us of here? Our lost fucking humanity?



Watched Sunshine recently, I take it?


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## L1ght (Jul 20, 2012)

Yes sir.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 20, 2012)

Yeah some people cant be rehab'd.


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## JamesM (Jul 20, 2012)

For the record, our local movie theater has cops stationed out front as I type.


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## mcleanab (Jul 20, 2012)

JamesM said:


> For the record, our local movie theater has cops stationed out front as I type.



And there was a news team out side of one of our theatres... talk about disgusting...


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## incinerated_guitar (Jul 21, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> Yes I agree, and that's exactly what my brain switches to anytime there's a really messed up situation. I always wanna know the why of it because it helps my mind process the gravity of the situation. I apologize if this seems to have come up above thoughts of the victims and their families; of course my thoughts and prayers are with them first and foremost. I certainly have no desire to politicize their deaths and suffering; I (like a lot of people) simply wanna know why this had to happen. Why did good people who harmed no one and just wanted to watch a badass movie have to be shot up by some loner with an axe to grind? That's the million dollar question for me because if we can ever find a real answer to it, we can take more preventative measures to ensure other people aren't hurt in the future.


 
Maybe hes just one of those people whos been pushed around too much in life? I know a few people myself that I wouldnt be suprised if they did something like this. Its sad, but some people are just put through so much hell in life that the only thing they think can make them feel better is to show others just exactly what theyre capable of. Think of the intimidation factor from all of this. Would you wanna fuck with someone who you know will be able to put a gun to the face of your children and pull the trigger with no remorse? Thats the way some people view things. He seemed pretty happy (from his mug shot) about what he did. Like he believes he proved or accomplished something. Unfortunately we live in a world with millions of people like this. And tragically, every once in a while, we see just what these people have wanted to do for a long time.


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## Necris (Jul 21, 2012)

Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of 'Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs'
The politicizing/outright religious jackassery begins.


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## Xiphos68 (Jul 21, 2012)

Sickening, this is. 
Prayers go out to all the victims, families of the victims, and the oppresor's family as well.

I have some good news, the 3 month old child that was allegedly killed or thought so, was just only injured, was taken to hospital (treated), and was released.


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 21, 2012)

Necris said:


> Louie Gohmert: Aurora Shootings Result Of 'Ongoing Attacks On Judeo-Christian Beliefs'
> The politicizing/outright religious jackassery begins.


That's disgusting. Also while I fully believe in the right to conceal carry, how would this have helped this situation? Even if managed to hit him he was decked head to toe in armor, yes he is gonna feel it but I doubt it would stop him. The odds of hitting any exposed parts would be slim to none especially in a dark theater with mass panic, even more unlikely not to hit an innocent in the process.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 21, 2012)

I've never negged anyone on SSO (and I don't aim to start), but I sure wish I could neg the people on my facebook who think it's just HILARIOUS to post aurora shooting memes today.


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## L1ght (Jul 21, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I've never negged anyone on SSO (and I don't aim to start), but I sure wish I could neg the people on my facebook who think it's just HILARIOUS to post aurora shooting memes today.




Sounds to me like a facebook friends purge is in order there Tim.


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## incinerated_guitar (Jul 21, 2012)

Sephiroth952 said:


> That's disgusting. Also while I fully believe in the right to conceal carry, how would this have helped this situation? Even if managed to hit him he was decked head to toe in armor, yes he is gonna feel it but I doubt it would stop him. The odds of hitting any exposed parts would be slim to none especially in a dark theater with mass panic, even more unlikely not to hit an innocent in the process.



Not to mention the 1000 mg of vikeden he took before the shooting. I doubt he was gonna feel shit.


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## bob123 (Jul 21, 2012)

Nueroscience grad students wouldn't really "fit the bill" for sociopathic murderers. 

Parents, family, friends (if he even had any), are partially to blame. Dropping out of school, reclusing yourself, buying lots of guns, armor, and ammunition.... There were red flags here. Just like the columbine kids. 


Now, as far as "motive", its a mission to understand. To understand is to prevent future incidents (or at least give warning to). I (to a VERY VERY limited point) somewhat (please take this in context) understand suicide. Nothing is so bad in your life you need to kill yourself, but what fucked up shit happened where you are comfortable planning on killing innocent people????? This is what we need to understand.

edit: this whole thing really really bugs me. Normally theres some "reason" behind these things... "mommy didnt love me", or "Everyone hated me", something like that... this is just... mindless... 


Just a sad, sad day.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 21, 2012)

incinerated_guitar said:


> Maybe hes just one of those people whos been pushed around too much in life? I know a few people myself that I wouldnt be suprised if they did something like this. Its sad, but some people are just put through so much hell in life that the only thing they think can make them feel better is to show others just exactly what theyre capable of. Think of the intimidation factor from all of this. Would you wanna fuck with someone who you know will be able to put a gun to the face of your children and pull the trigger with no remorse? Thats the way some people view things. He seemed pretty happy (from his mug shot) about what he did. Like he believes he proved or accomplished something. Unfortunately we live in a world with millions of people like this. And tragically, every once in a while, we see just what these people have wanted to do for a long time.



Makes sense since his own mom told the cops that they had the right person. It's like she knew he was gonna snap. But if that's the case, why the fuck didn't she do more to intervene BEFORE shit came to this? Was it a family love or something? Gah, one of the worst things about trying to figure out the whys of horrible incidents like this is that it seems like every new answer creates a hundred new questions. 

The most plausible thing I can think of is that this dude was mad as hell at the world and wanted to tell it and everyone in it to go fuck themselves in a most god awful way. Guns weren't at fault, it wasn't because he "needed jesus", it was because the dude was angry at the world and full of hate. That's what drives people to do shit like this.


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 21, 2012)

L1ght said:


> You know what, with all do respect, what are you trying to remind us of here? Our lost fucking humanity? This disgusting waste of air of a person does not deserve sympathy, nor does he deserve any kind of humanity. What he did was INHUMANE, so why does he deserve any kindness/leniency at all, in any form?
> 
> And when you say, "we will be no better then him" if we torture the shit out of him or put him to death, maybe you should go and talk to the families of the deceased, and maybe you should stare at the photos of the dead. Hopefully that will make you think twice about showing ANY sympathy or humanity at all towards this fucking piece of shit.



Oh, for god's sake.

Seriously, I know how horrible it is, and I know he's an awful human being who has left many families in shock and grief, but calling for his execution is not going to do anyone any favours. He needs to go to prison for an extremely long time, not the fucking electric chair or whatever you want.

It is barbaric, and it really does lower the state to the level of the killer, sorry.

As for the families of the deceased: yes, they are going through such hell at the moment, and you cannot imagine the depths of my sympathy for them, but why should we kill and torture ANOTHER human being _out of sympathy _for them? It doesn't bring any of his victims back, and I have a feeling that if any of them were to find it the slightest bit comforting, it might still feel rather hollow to them, because it doesn't actually solve anything, at the end of the day. They still lost a relative, who isn't coming back. And yet another life would have been lost. Why would they want another life to be lost after going through that grief themselves? Why would they want to inflict on his family what they are going through already? I know it seems likely to you that they would just want this man to die, but would it solve anything at all? No, no it fucking would not.

Tell you what, if you want me to imagine what it would be like to be one of the families of the deceased - I want you to imagine that you are a member of the killer's family. You may be shocked, and disgusted, and think he was a subhuman piece of shit for doing this (as is only natural), but would you want to go through the same grief as the families of the people he killed? You're just a member of the family, you're blameless and have done nothing (as far as we know), but you're about to lose a son, or a brother, or a nephew, or whatever else, forever. Think about that.

It is not JUSTICE. It is REVENGE. Justice is what we need; a prison sentence that will last the rest of his life. Revenge is for children, and for people who haven't got past their gut reaction.

So, you would willingly make murderers out of the state, on the basis of a gut reaction? Nice one.



> *This is not me being hot-headed or enraged... This is me thinking level headed*.
> 
> I am with Cybersyn on this one.
> 
> *Fuck this piece of shit, whether he is mentally unstable or not. He deserves to be tortured for what he did and deserves to rot in prison until his very last agonizing breath.*



Really, you're being level headed here? The second bit I highlighted doesn't make that particularly clear...

You _are _being hot-headed and enraged, sorry. If this is what passes for level-headed thought in your mind, I worry for you.


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## L1ght (Jul 21, 2012)

I'm sitting here wondering what exactly you would do, and how you would react if your mother/father/brother/girlfriend/son were murdered in cold blood when they went out to the movie theaters to have a good time. 

The fact of the matter is that you have no idea how you would react because you have never been put in a situation like this, and anything beyond is just pure speculation on your part. No one ever knows how they will react until the situation arises. 

So to be completely honest, and like I said before, with all do respect, I think it's pitiful that you sit there typing away telling people how they SHOULD be reacting when you have no idea what they are going through. Your definition of level-headed isn't everybody else's.


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 21, 2012)

L1ght said:


> I'm sitting here wondering what exactly you would do, and how you would react if your mother/father/brother/girlfriend/son were murdered in cold blood when they went out to the movie theaters to have a good time.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that you have no idea how you would react because you have never been put in a situation like this, and anything beyond is just pure speculation on your part. No one ever knows how they will react until the situation arises.
> 
> So to be completely honest, and like I said before, with all do respect, I think it's pitiful that you sit there typing away telling people how they SHOULD be reacting when you have no idea what they are going through. Your definition of level-headed isn't everybody else's.



Fair enough, and I certainly hope I never find myself in a situation where I have to test my own theories - but you openly admit you aren't in that situation either. In which case, your previous post smacked a little of over-reaction.

It is total speculation, you're right. And as I have said, I REALLY don't ever want to be in a situation that requires me to go beyond speculation. But that puts me in a position to think about it as rationally as I can, without bias. And I simply don't think that killing is the answer. You won't budge me on that. It's counter-intuitive to suggest that the best way of "resolving" a killing spree case is to kill someone else. Put him in prison, where he belongs, and put him there a fucking long time at that.

My definition of "level-headed", by the way, is rather similar to the one from Wikitionary - "remaining calm, composed, and careful, of not acting out of reflex or excessive emotion." You most certainly weren't doing that.

I really am trying my best not to come across as cold or heartless, because I am disgusted by this situation and feel grave sympathy for everyone affected, but equally I don't think _another _man should be killed because of it.


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## Tang (Jul 21, 2012)

Well guys, just when it couldn't get any worse the westboro baptist church decides to picket the upcoming aurora funerals.

https://twitter.com/WBCFredJr/status/226488596029374464



> Only 500 miles to WBC Aurora picket. #GodCursesUForFagMarriage #WorseAndMoreOnTheWay #WBCToldU #GodisAmericasTerrorist #ObeyToday Too fun!



EDIT: Is anyone else worried at the possibility that this will inspire copycat crimes?


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## leftyguitarjoe (Jul 21, 2012)

Estilo said:


> This is what happens when you allow civilians to own guns. Where's the logic in that anyway. This is why America's fucked up.



This is why EVERY civilian should own guns.


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## Murdstone (Jul 21, 2012)

bob123 said:


> Nueroscience grad students wouldn't really "fit the bill" for sociopathic murderers.



Heh, you must not do neuroscience in grad school.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Jul 21, 2012)

Tang said:


> Well guys, just when it couldn't get any worse the westboro baptist church decides to picket the upcoming aurora funerals.
> 
> https://twitter.com/WBCFredJr/status/226488596029374464
> 
> ...




No. Nobody on earth denotes even the smallest shred of credibility to the WBC.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 21, 2012)

Tang said:


> Well guys, just when it couldn't get any worse the westboro baptist church decides to picket the upcoming aurora funerals.
> 
> https://twitter.com/WBCFredJr/status/226488596029374464
> 
> ...


I hate you for posting this. Anyone with half a braincell knew they would do this, stop giving them free fucking publicity.

EDIT: And everyone calling for bloodshed and throwing him in with a tiger: you've got bloodlust, and no one is under the Code of Hammurabi anymore. Stop making yourself look like knee-jerk, reactionary, bloodthirsty morons.


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## The Reverend (Jul 21, 2012)

I really want to know the why. He doesn't seem like the type who've done these sorts of things in the past.

What I find almost as bad as his actions is the actions of various political groups trying to paint him as their opposition's product or something. That's nearly as subhuman to me as taking innocent life, though in a much more intellectually nauseating way.


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## right_to_rage (Jul 21, 2012)

The amount of political slagging propaganda pouring forth from this whole thing, and other monstrosities like this is abhorring to me. The mainstream media and political bodies today are like piranhas looking for fresh blood in the water; these events are then strategically used to gain control over the popular opinion. 1984 is a good book to refer to when exploring the implications of obtaining and controlling a hive mind through media and fear propaganda. I'd like to think that most people are aware of how to form their own objective opinions even when the heard travels one way...


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## nickgray (Jul 21, 2012)

L1ght said:


> I'm sitting here wondering what exactly you would do, and how you would react if your mother/father/brother/girlfriend/son were murdered in cold blood when they went out to the movie theaters to have a good time.



Which is precisely why relatives should *never* have a say in these matters. It's not about revenge, it's about justice, it's about cool headed, calm, rational decisions made by a third party.

It's really unsettling to read this kind of responses, to be honest. How can you dispense pain, suffering and death on a human being with such an ease? What makes you qualified to judge him? The guy is almost certainly mentally unstable, that alone should make you think twice about the moral implication of his actions. You judge him from a point of a healthy person, from a point of someone who has built-in programming that prevents doing this sort of thing and considers it to be completely unacceptable and abhorrent. The shooter's built-in programming, in all likelihood, is broken, which led to this incredibly tragic incident.

I think it is incredibly stupid to see his actions in black and white and likewise, it's incredibly stupid to punish him using bronze age justice system. Surely, we humans are better than that. The true sign of being civilized, being wise, being compassionate and rational, you know, all that stuff, is in how we treat those who broke the bounds of acceptable behavior. In my opinion, when we ourselves break the bounds of acceptable behavior in order to punish the criminals, it makes us no better than the criminals themselves. It even makes us worse, we're guilty of hypocrisy, because we're doing the same exact thing we claim to despise.


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## bob123 (Jul 21, 2012)

nickgray said:


> Which is precisely why relatives should *never* have a say in these matters. It's not about revenge, it's about justice, it's about cool headed, calm, rational decisions made by a third party.
> 
> It's really unsettling to read this kind of responses, to be honest. How can you dispense pain, suffering and death on a human being with such an ease? What makes you qualified to judge him? The guy is almost certainly mentally unstable, that alone should make you think twice about the moral implication of his actions. You judge him from a point of a healthy person, from a point of someone who has built-in programming that prevents doing this sort of thing and considers it to be completely unacceptable and abhorrent. The shooter's built-in programming, in all likelihood, is broken, which led to this incredibly tragic incident.
> 
> I think it is incredibly stupid to see his actions in black and white and likewise, it's incredibly stupid to punish him using bronze age justice system. Surely, we humans are better than that. The true sign of being civilized, being wise, being compassionate and rational, you know, all that stuff, is in how we treat those who broke the bounds of acceptable behavior. In my opinion, when we ourselves break the bounds of acceptable behavior in order to punish the criminals, it makes us no better than the criminals themselves. It even makes us worse, we're guilty of hypocrisy, because we're doing the same exact thing we claim to despise.




This sounds good, but is the intellectual equivolent of trolling.

How does putting one person in jail/asylum qualify/quantify in any way as "justice"?

Why are YOU the moral authority? Apathy is just as bad as being a zealot.



Humans... civilized? Wise? What planet do YOU live on man?


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 21, 2012)

^Nothing that you said there made any sense.


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## JPhoenix19 (Jul 21, 2012)

BucketheadRules said:


> I can't understand why people think death is the one true option for this guy. Yeah, he's fucked up and is clearly an awful (not to mention a very probably mentally ill) human being, but he is a human being nonetheless, and - though you may not want to hear this - he theoretically has the same rights as any of us. Put him in prison, certainly, and for a very, very long time, but where is the need to kill him?
> 
> *Oh, that's right - there is no need. It would make you as bad as him. Death is death.*
> 
> More death is not the answer. It's not only immoral, but counter-intuitive, to suggest that execution is the best way to deal with this.



I can see where you're coming from, but I can't help but adamantly disagree with the statement in bold- as generalized and broad as it is. Death is death, but the means and reasons for bringing it are not black and white. It would not make us as 'bad' as him if he were executed with the right intent. Vengeful execution would indeed be morally wrong, however I do not believe vengeance is the purpose of the death penalty. Death is the surest way to rid society of a person and their potential to commit another heinous act such as this, and from that perspective you could say that if we reasonably can believe this person will not be rehabilitated, or cannot be reintegrated into society, then they must be permanently removed- and the only truly inescapable prison we know if is death. As harsh as humans sentencing other humans to death is, it obviously requires the highest level of objective consideration and gravity.

Unfortunate as it is, we do not have the resources to indefinitely imprison criminals- we have a finite amount of space, time, and money. At some point you have to consider that there are some people who's crimes against society are great enough to merit their permanent removal from it by death.




leftyguitarjoe said:


> This is why EVERY civilian should own guns.



I'm a believer in the right to bear arms, but I adamantly disagree with this statement- at least with the current state of our society. The right to bear arms carries with it the burden of responsibility for any damage those arms cause. _Every_ civilian is not equipped to handle that responsibility. Aside from that, you also must consider the types of situations in which a civilian would be in to warrant the use of a gun, and how those situations would effect the person. Without proper training or prior experience to intense interpersonal violence, most of normal society reacts to those situations with phobic-level responses. At that level of fear, your average joe-shmoe carrying a gun is useless. This is why we need soldiers and police- those who receive the kind of training that prepares a person for lethal interpersonal violence.

My alternative to your statement is that any civilian willing to undergo training (greater than that currently offered to obtain carry permits) should be able to carry a gun legally.


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## Jakke (Jul 21, 2012)

Absolutely terrible business.. My thoughts are with the people hurt

As for the why... I tend to take a keen interest in the human psyche (and there I sounded like Hannibal Lecter..), and he does not fit the common psychopath or sociopath. He seemed to have had a normal childhood, he has not shown much previous cruelty, this seems to be his first crime. That speaks against him being a sociopath, they are products of childhood abuse and/or other suffering in their early years. A telltale sign is usually that they torture animals as children, which I'm sure we would know about in this case.
Him being so introvert does not fit with being a psychopath either, they are typically agressively extrovert. Again, no previous convictions also speaks against psychopathy...

I think he just cracked, he could have developed some sort of psychosis, he seemed to believe he was the Joker after all. It just seems the most plausible to me.


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## mcleanab (Jul 21, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> I hate you for posting this. Anyone with half a braincell knew they would do this, stop giving them free fucking publicity.
> 
> EDIT: And everyone calling for bloodshed and throwing him in with a tiger: you've got bloodlust, and no one is under the Code of Hammurabi anymore. Stop making yourself look like knee-jerk, reactionary, bloodthirsty morons.



I have bloodlust? Really... you know me? You've dined with me? You've seen me in action? You've seen my underwear?

If I'm not mistaken, we are on a public forum of opinion and thought and creative interaction (and practical too when we seek advice on gear, tunes and theory). And I think it's a forum where the majority of folks listen to overtly aggressive and what some would call overtly violent music with lyrical imagery that touches upon everything from dying fetuses to grand scale multi-universe apocalypse sometimes with nothing but science fiction type destruction all the way to religious Armageddon. And as far as I know, not one person on this forum is guilty of walking into a crowded theatre and killing 12 people. 

Perhaps that is in part due to the fact that we can express ourselves in a creative and interesting way those parts of us that don't get that much time in the light of day... and those parts that need expressing might come out in violent feeling/sounding music, aggressive lyrics or a post or three about feeding someone to a tiger who has angered many by his actions and left many dead and injured.

It's a lot like watching an action movie or war movie - shit blows up and people die. By your own rationale, you too have bloodlust. So what? Calling folks "morons" who are, by virtue of the fact we are all together on this forum because we like guitars, your colleagues starts to get personal.

I, for one, am very careful about name calling. And, I don't get in the habit of telling people what do to. That's just me. BUT, if you want to get personal and resort to name calling, expect a personal response. Just sayin'... EDIT: (someone might call you a poo poo head...)


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## nickgray (Jul 21, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> At that level of fear, your average joe-shmoe carrying a gun is useless



Indeed. People think they'll go Rambo and heroically save the day, just like in a Hollywood movie  Of course, in reality they will, in all likelihood, cause far, far more harm than good.



> Unfortunate as it is, we do not have the resources to indefinitely imprison criminals



Yeah, this is why societies should prevent and rehabilitate instead of punishing and turning a blind eye on the problems that potentially may cause criminal activity. Poor education, inequality, victimless crimes (I know that tons of people in the US are imprisoned for drug addicts and even worse, using soft drugs), etc. Treating the symptoms will not fix the problem, it'll only make it worse.



> At some point you have to consider that there are some people who's crimes against society are great enough to merit their permanent removal from it by death.



I really, really disagree with that, but instead of arguing let me just present a more practical problem with that scenario - science. Forget the whole hypocrisy thing, it's stupid to kill these people because we can study them; we can figure out what went wrong and how to isolate people with similar problems and keep a very close eye on them, or perhaps even treat them somehow.


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## JPhoenix19 (Jul 21, 2012)

nickgray said:


> I really, really disagree with that, but instead of arguing let me just present a more practical problem with that scenario - science. Forget the whole hypocrisy thing, it's stupid to kill these people because we can study them; we can figure out what went wrong and how to isolate people with similar problems and keep a very close eye on them, or perhaps even treat them somehow.



That's a very reasonable alternative, though I think you'd have the same problem with limited resources. I'm naturally an idealist so I wish it could be like that.


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## nickgray (Jul 21, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> though I think you'd have the same problem with limited resources



Limited resources? How many criminals that are eligible for death sentence do you think there are? There are very few people who commit truly atrocious acts, a tiny percentage of the population. Plus you're keeping a human being alive, not a blue whale. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't take a whole lot to keep these people breathing. You don't have millions of serial killers and mass murderers out there, you know.


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## L1ght (Jul 21, 2012)

Honestly, after stepping back and trying to view the situation in a more objective way, I somewhat agree with what Buckethead is saying, because what I said may have come across as too, "hot-headed", but I can't help but get immensly angry every single time I see the words compassion or rehabilitation. HE DOES NOT DESERVE EITHER. PERIOD.

No matter the outcome, we should all realize that we have no say in what will happen to this depraved lunatic, and that all these arguments and discussions are basically fruitless. The only thing that matters now is how good of a lawyer this guy has, what the penal code of Colorado is, how the judge and jury will rule, and the presented evidence. 

However, if by chance the prosecution finds evidence of terrorism, then obviously many more variables will be introduced in to the equation. As it stands now though, we should all realize that Colorado does indeed use capital punishment, and he currently faces the needle. Unless they find him insane, he WILL be executed.


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 21, 2012)

Yeah. I don't think he should be killed or tortured, but the compassion bit stops there


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## bob123 (Jul 21, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> ^Nothing that you said there made any sense.



I suggest you apply a little english reading comprehension to it then. I was typing on my cell phone, so I was a bit short, but my points should be infered/understood. 

He is coming off as a self-proclaimed moral authority figure, telling people they are wrong for their beliefs. Why is he more correct then the others?

As far as "justice" is concerned, I do firmly believe in "due process". However, there is no "justice" to be had. Putting him away for life, putting him in a mental asylum, or killing him. None of that is really going to do much for anyone in the long run. You're essentially trying to justify the loss of 12+ (the number seems to change depending on the news source, sorry) with his punishment.

Instead of piggy backing on others, why don't you come up with your own opinions then? Neg Repping me doesn't make you or anyone else "correct".


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## bigchocolateman (Jul 21, 2012)

I think he should be put to death in a normal way, no torture, no getting eaten by tigers. This isn't for a revenge purpose. There is no form of justice for what has occurred here. What's the difference between death and rotting in a prison for the next 50 years for this guy. Besides the $50,000 or more dollars a year it costs to keep him there. He's a lunatic, I doubt his family will ever want to see him. This man has nothing positive to look forward to in his life. Death may be the human alternative.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 21, 2012)

mcleanab said:


> I have bloodlust? Really... you know me? You've dined with me? You've seen me in action? You've seen my underwear?


You advocated he be thrown in with a live tiger, because you want to see him get eaten. You have bloodlust. I don't have to know you personally to know that you said you want him to die. Dumbass.



bob123 said:


> I suggest you apply a little english reading comprehension to it then. I was typing on my cell phone, so I was a bit short, but my points should be infered/understood.
> 
> He is coming off as a self-proclaimed moral authority figure, telling people they are wrong for their beliefs. Why is he more correct then the others?
> 
> ...


I understood it, you didn't have poor grammar, it was the thought behind what you were saying that was dumb. 


> This sounds good, but is the intellectual equivolent of trolling.


It's not like trolling at all, he's saying that killing the guy with some barbaric means in response to this isn't the right way to handle it. OH NO, WHAT A CRAZY AND OFFENSIVE VIEWPOINT THAT IS!


> How does putting one person in jail/asylum qualify/quantify in any way as "justice"?


Probably because it keeps them away from other people they might harm, and they have to face consequences for their actions. Durr.



> Why are YOU the moral authority? Apathy is just as bad as being a zealot.


Saying that no, we probably shouldn't murder him in some crazy way for doing this doesn't make him apathetic.





> Humans... civilized? Wise? What planet do YOU live on man?


And here, you sound like a lot of the cynical 14 year olds that I met back in middle and high school.

I'm not piggy backing on anything, and your post was still over cynical nonsense.


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## mcleanab (Jul 21, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Dumbass.



Poo-poo head.


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## The Reverend (Jul 21, 2012)

Theoretically, every one of us is capable of such acts, given the right circumstances. Sanity is such a fragile, fleeting thing, and our grasp on it is never more than tenuous. I suggest we learn the 'why' before throwing him to the wolves. It can take less than you think to totally break someone's morals or inhibitions irrevocably, and with that we should have some compassion, as hard as that may be. 

I'm not going to get into another argument over capital punishment, and this thread isn't the place for it. Come on, people. Leave your internet dick-measuring behind.


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## thatguy87 (Jul 21, 2012)

ok... just light him on fire and we can call it even. anyone here that thinks he should be "rehabilitated" or put in any kind of prison is misguided. What he did was inhumane and he should therefore no longer be considered human. Kill him and save the world some money. It's like shooting a rabid dog. No remorse.


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## The Reverend (Jul 21, 2012)

thatguy87 said:


> ok... just light him on fire and we can call it even. anyone here that thinks he should be "rehabilitated" or put in any kind of prison is misguided. What he did was inhumane and he should therefore no longer be considered human. Kill him and save the world some money. It's like shooting a rabid dog. No remorse.



Are you the authority on what acts make someone lose their humanity? Like, can I throw you some hypothetical situations and you can tell me whether the person in question has lost their human rights? What qualifies you to be the final arbiter of the human condition? Are you extensively educated? Do you have an unparalleled understanding of psychological trauma and disease?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 21, 2012)

Dude find one example of a crazy psycho that went on a shooting rampage, killing a bunch of children and was successfully rehabilitated.

GG.


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## mcleanab (Jul 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Dude find one example of a crazy psycho that went on a shooting rampage, killing a bunch of children and was successfully rehabilitated.
> 
> GG.



We should all listen to a bit of Andrew Vachss about this...


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## The Reverend (Jul 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Dude find one example of a crazy psycho that went on a shooting rampage, killing a bunch of children and was successfully rehabilitated.
> 
> GG.



Does the Son of Sam count? I mean, he was a serial killer, but still.


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## JosephAOI (Jul 22, 2012)

Have you guys seen this?

Police: Colo. suspect planned massacre for months - Yahoo! News


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## The Reverend (Jul 22, 2012)

JosephAOI said:


> Have you guys seen this?
> 
> Police: Colo. suspect planned massacre for months - Yahoo! News



I found the quote from the criminologist interesting, as it lines up with something I was thinking about. Maybe this guy knew he wasn't okay, and that's why he studied neuroscience?


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## thatguy87 (Jul 22, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Are you the authority on what acts make someone lose their humanity? Like, can I throw you some hypothetical situations and you can tell me whether the person in question has lost their human rights? What qualifies you to be the final arbiter of the human condition? Are you extensively educated? Do you have an unparalleled understanding of psychological trauma and disease?



Um, no. Like the rest of us that are "sane," I don't need anyone to tell me what is wrong and what is right when it comes to _shooting at a crowd of people, one that includes women and children._ People die every day and most of them don't deserve it. I don't feel the slightest guilt when someone such as this takes his last breath.


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## The Reverend (Jul 22, 2012)

thatguy87 said:


> Um, no. Like the rest of us that are "sane," I don't need anyone to tell me what is wrong and what is right when it comes to _shooting at a crowd of people, one that includes women and children._ People die every day and most of them don't deserve it. I don't feel the slightest guilt when someone such as this takes his last breath.



I'm not asking whether you feel bad for the guy. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who does.

I'm asking whether you're qualified to make life and death decisions for another person. I want to know what gives one the right to take life. Moral high ground? Morals are subjective, hardly the ruler I'd want to measured against. What do you have, what intrinsic quality do you possess, that sets you apart and above another person? Is it the fact of his actions? Who's to say that any of us, given his apparent mental condition, wouldn't do the same? 

I'd say a lack of compassion is how this man was able to carry out his plan. Apparently he's not the only one who lacks compassion.


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## Necris (Jul 22, 2012)

Bottom line: If you want him to die there's this thing called the Death Penalty that he can be determined to be eligible for by a Jury, Colorado is one of the states that has this although they have not executed anyone since 1977. 
If that's what you want then that is more reasonable than if you want him to undergo prolonged torture and a slow painful death. If you want the latter then congratulations you have bloodlust and the validity of your opinion suffers in light of it.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 22, 2012)

Necris said:


> Bottom line: If you want him to die there's this thing called the Death Penalty that he can be determined to be eligible for by a Jury, Colorado is one of the states that has this although they have not executed anyone since 1977.
> If that's what you want then that is more reasonable than if you want him to undergo prolonged torture and a slow painful death. If you want the latter then congratulations you have bloodlust and the validity of your opinion suffers in light of it.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 22, 2012)

Aint nothing wrong with a bit of torture, it builds character.


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## flint757 (Jul 22, 2012)

NO bloodlust here, but death penalty yes. I agree with Stealth people who commit massacres crazy or not do not deserve rehabilitation simply because even if they deserved it it would not work. IMO you have to be insane to do something of this caliber and would therefore say that it is also an irrelevant factor. If drugs are necessary for him to not do this he can never be released because what if he stops the med's? If he just goes to jail a life sentence isn't long enough albeit he'll probably get one for every victim so it will add up, but with parol hearing he could get out earlier and I don't want to have to cross this guy on a street personally.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 22, 2012)

Not to mention he will never be productive for society anyways. What kind of retard hires someone who slaughtered a bunch of innocent people. Let me go ahead and answer that for you.







Nobody!


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## The Reverend (Jul 22, 2012)

So you'd kill out of practicality?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 22, 2012)

Sure why not!


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 22, 2012)

Actually, insanely barbaric torture could/would sometimes serve as a deterent for anyone else contemplated such actions, and in other cases it would make no difference.

In this case, given the extent Mr. Holmes went to protect himself from any physical harm, I think the guarantee of brutal torture would have detered him.
But again, in some cases it wouldn't make a difference.

I would be against capitol punishment altogether based on the justice aspect, but the deterent aspect makes me consider otherwise.


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## The Reverend (Jul 22, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Sure why not!



Then why not use him as cheap labor for the rest of his life? Killing someone isn't really the most practical solution to a problem such as this. 



TRENCHLORD said:


> Actually, insanely barbaric torture could/would sometimes serve as a deterent for anyone else contemplated such actions, and in other cases it would make no difference.
> 
> In this case, given the extent Mr. Holmes went to protect himself from any physical harm, I think the guarantee of brutal torture would have detered him.
> But again, in some cases it wouldn't make a difference.
> ...



Deterrents are a joke. This guy knew he was going to go to jail or be killed, it clearly didn't stop him. I can't think of the last time I was like, "Man, I'd like to vent my rage on someone totally innocent, but I might get the death penalty." I'm not sure that thought goes through any killer's mind.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 22, 2012)

Yeah they've proven the death penalty doesnt really work as a deterrent.


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## morrowcosom (Jul 22, 2012)

From what I gather he was sort of a meek kid his whole life, and as a result felt powerless, and the joker symbolized power to him. I am sure that kid felt such a high from the power during the attack, it would be damn hard for him to not kill again. 

The kid is most likely not going to become non-psychotic with some help from a therapist. His whole life probably led up to this. 

He would have to live on hardcore prescription drugs in order to have any hope of not killing again and that is not rehabilitation, that is a slip up waiting to happen.

Also, we all know how rehabilitative jail is for people that shoot children. He would die in jail or come out more fucked up. 

I do not see rehab working.


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## Jakke (Jul 22, 2012)

But is there really a deterent effect? I recall some stats that showed no deterence in states with capital punishment. Not to mention that countries that doesn't kill people to show killing is wrong by that logic should be festering havens of criminality. They are not.

*EDIT* Ninja'd


I once heard it explained why deterence does not work. It boils down to three reasons for crime:
Profit
Compulsion
Passion

Profit criminals are not detered because they take a calculated risk, a common notion among them is also that they do not expect to be caught.
Compulsion criminals cannot be detered because it's a compulsion, a serial killer or cleptomaniac never puts being caught into the equation. 
Criminals of passion do not commit crimes coming from a rational place, if you come home, find your partner in bed with someone else and kill them, were there any deterence in the world that could have stopped you?


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 22, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Deterrents are a joke. This guy knew he was going to go to jail or be killed, it clearly didn't stop him. I can't think of the last time I was like, "Man, I'd like to vent my rage on someone totally innocent, but I might get the death penalty." I'm not sure that thought goes through any killer's mind.


 
I wasn't talking about just the death penalty.
This guy took obvious measures to protect himself against the pain of retaliation.
He new he'd be caught, he knew he'd be convicted, yet he still didn't want to experience the physical pain of retaliation (which is also why he didn't take his own life like many in that situation ultimately do, and why of course that he wore the body armour or vest and helmet or whatever).

Had he known that soon after his apprehension an unholy cock and ball torture session would soon follow, I think he'd have had serious second thoughts in regaurds to his big plan.

All and all though, I agree that many times the detterent thing doesn't make a difference, but he showd by his actions and precautions that he didn't want to get hurt.


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## Bobo (Jul 22, 2012)

revclay said:


> To each their own. I think it would be nice if we could learn more about what disturbs people such as this and use that knowledge to help people and try and prevent these tragedies from occurring in the future. Who knows. He may be beyond hope but I think we have much to learn about the human psyche and understanding these sorts of pathologies could be pretty useful.



If anything can be possibly learned from sick people like this, I think it's worth some effort. Dissect his mind for all it's worth, if anything. 

But that effort wouldn't last very long if it were up to me. He would be executed, America would not be asked to support him in jail for the rest of his life. This is among the worst kinds of despicable acts a person can do, there is no right to any sort of "rehab" here in my mind.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 22, 2012)

Meh. He doesn't look like he'll last very long in prison anyways .


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## The Reverend (Jul 22, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> I wasn't talking about just the death penalty.
> This guy took obvious measures to protect himself against the pain of retaliation.
> He new he'd be caught, he knew he'd be convicted, yet he still didn't want to experience the physical pain of retaliation (which is also why he didn't take his own life like many in that situation ultimately do, and why of course that he wore the body armour or vest and helmet or whatever).
> 
> ...



Or that he didn't want his spree to be cut short. 

Torture in the form of ass-busting dudes named Bubba is probably the largest deterrent in America, and it's not stopping anyone from committing crimes. I'm again not convinced that the threat of torture would stop James Holmes from doing what did, as even the threat of the death penalty didn't stop him


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 22, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Or that he didn't want his spree to be cut short.
> 
> Torture in the form of ass-busting dudes named Bubba is probably the largest deterrent in America, and it's not stopping anyone from committing crimes. I'm again not convinced that the threat of torture would stop James Holmes from doing what did, as even the threat of the death penalty didn't stop him


 
Fair enough, but I still want my torture reasons .


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## thatguy87 (Jul 22, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Then why not use him as cheap labor for the rest of his life? Killing someone isn't really the most practical solution to a problem such as this.



Considering the cost of prison... there is no such thing as cheap labor, unless you count Asian sweat shops.


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## The Reverend (Jul 22, 2012)

thatguy87 said:


> Considering the cost of prison... there is no such thing as cheap labor, unless you count Asian sweat shops.



Don't they have for-profit prisons in the UK? We've certainly got them here.


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## nickgray (Jul 22, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Don't they have for-profit prisons in the UK? We've certainly got them here.



For-profit prisons are a terrible idea. First of all, the government pays those prisons, they're not literally for-profit prisons, as in prisoners doing work that pays tons of money for the owners. For-profit means that it's run by a private enterprise, and on top of paying all the costs for running the prison and running the enterprise itself, it has to produce profit for the owners. Plus, this is a horrible, horrible conflict of interest that should be just incredibly illegal (but, of course, in America it's commonplace, the big business has infiltrated the government so deep, that there's barely any difference between the two), because it's in the owners best interests to keep as much prisoners there for as long as possible.


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## loki (Jul 22, 2012)

radical socialist?

Media pegs Aurora Colorado shooter James E. Holmes as unChristian, depressed Tea Partier, video game playing Trekkie | Washington Times Communities



> Across the Atlantic, where people in London are understandably nervous with big crowds coming to town for the Summer Olympic Games just a week from now, the _Daily Mail_ quoted a British investigator who pointed the finger at the Black Bloc faction of Occupy Wall Street. Apparently the movie portrays the Occupy Wall Streeters in an unflattering way, which surely must have enraged the shooter.
> 
> 
> Twitter traffic is circulating about the shooters possible participation in a group called the Denver Anarchist Black Cross, which states on its Facebook page that it exists to contribute to the defense of social movements, both internally and externally, working against oppression and for self determination.
> ...


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 22, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Meh. He doesn't look like he'll last very long in prison anyways .



He killed children, he'll be slaughtered in prison. There's a code of honor among violent criminals. Women beaters, pedophiles, and child murderers are sub-human to them.

Source: My father, who has spent 16+ years working in the Correctional system, and the past 3 years as an FBI Hostage Negotiator Trainer.

I fully support killing this man. Will he be put to death? Nope.

He will be declared insane, and thus unable to stand trial.


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## L1ght (Jul 22, 2012)

Chickenhawk said:


> Women beaters, pedophiles, and child murderers are sub-human to them..



He's sub-human except to the women beaters, pedophiles, and child murderers that are in prison, because I can assure you, there are plenty of them in there.


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 22, 2012)

L1ght said:


> He's sub-human except to the women beaters, pedophiles, and child murderers that are in prison, because I can assure you, there are plenty of them in there.



They're not going to band together against the rest of the prison population


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## flint757 (Jul 22, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Yeah they've proven the death penalty doesnt really work as a deterrent.



It also doesn't work as a deterrent because it isn't easy to get the death penalty like someone else posted the last one in Colorado was 1977.



Bobo said:


> If anything can be possibly learned from sick people like this, I think it's worth some effort. Dissect his mind for all it's worth, if anything.
> 
> But that effort wouldn't last very long if it were up to me. He would be executed, America would not be asked to support him in jail for the rest of his life. This is among the worst kinds of despicable acts a person can do, there is no right to any sort of "rehab" here in my mind.



rehab is definitely not an option, but dissecting him would be incredibly illegal as current laws stand.



loki said:


> radical socialist?
> 
> Media pegs Aurora Colorado shooter James E. Holmes as unChristian, depressed Tea Partier, video game playing Trekkie | Washington Times Communities



That was a bullshit report that someone on CNN said and was quite wrong. It is gross when people bring politics into MASS MURDERS. Not referring to you, but the guy from CNN or whatever news source it was (I forget).

[EDIT]

It was ABC

There is a misconception that prison is this 70's mafia style order about children and women beaters/rapists. The population is not aware of your crime unless you made the news and not all prisons are hyper violent either. Not saying it doesn't happen just not as frequently as some on here seem to believe.


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 22, 2012)

flint757 said:


> The population is not aware of your crime unless you made the news and not all prisons are hyper violent either. Not saying it doesn't happen just not as frequently as some on here seem to believe.



Not saying all prisons are hyper-violent, but is it very easy to find out what your fellow inmate did to get jailed: Officers leak the information.

Not saying it's right, not saying I agree with it. Just saying it happens. A lot. Everywhere.


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## flint757 (Jul 22, 2012)

But see here is the thing if child molesters as an example are repeat offenders they obviously got out of jail alive. After all you can't repeat a crime if you're dead.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 22, 2012)

flint757 said:


> But see here is the thing if child molesters as an example are repeat offenders they obviously got out of jail alive. After all you can't repeat a crime if you're dead.


 
Far as I know, some prisons won't put offenders with crimes like that in General Population, to avoid "retribution" from the other inmates. I don't know how common that is, or if it's even true, but I've watched a ton of LaO:SVU, so I'm pretty much an expert on criminal justice .


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 22, 2012)

Chickenhawk said:


> Not saying all prisons are hyper-violent, but is it very easy to find out what your fellow inmate did to get jailed: Officers leak the information.
> 
> Not saying it's right, not saying I agree with it. Just saying it happens. A lot. Everywhere.



I approve of this leaking of information


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 22, 2012)

flint757 said:


> rehab is definitely not an option, but dissecting him would be incredibly illegal as current laws stand..


I think he meant that is a non-literal sense. Study his behavior and his mind while he is alive using science is what I do believe he meant.


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## AwakenNoMore (Jul 22, 2012)

I'm pissed off about this, however, gathering my scattered thoughts into a decent rant is a bit difficult, gotta love A.D.D.

It's really fucked up that the guy just up and kicks in the emergency exit of a theater and lays waste to a theater full of unarmed civilians. However the body count is a bit low for the ambush he waged. Obviously NO deaths would have been better, but the death toll could have been much much worse. The thing about it that bothers me is the fact that the WHOLE theater was unable to stop him. Not because they didn't try, because a few brave people gave their lives that night. There where also a few cowards, like the guy who dropped his baby and ran out leaving his infant and girlfriend behind. (who has now gone on TV ranting anti gun BS) 

The gun issue:
That theater was a "Gun Free Zone" so no one was carrying. Had people been carrying, this event could have turned out much different. Take the attempted robbery that been eclipsed by this tragedy, and old man carrying stopped an attempted robbery. Just saying. Taking guns away from everyone isn't going to stop the crazy people and criminals from getting their hands on them. The media is having a ball with this issue. Just remember what the media tells you about the truth isn't the truth itself.

I'm not trying to come off as insensitive about this because that's not the case. Many people are without loved ones or injured because of this asspie. My friend Andrew knew one of the people killed in the massacre. It's been a rough couple of days.

Like I said, A.D.D. rant balls.


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## flint757 (Jul 22, 2012)

Sephiroth952 said:


> I think he meant that is a non-literal sense. Study his behavior and his mind while he is alive using science is what I do believe he meant.



Not much to learn through observation IMO. It isn't like they are going to give him a whole lot of space and I know people who convincingly lie to a psychologist regularly and they buy it. What I mean is other than dissecting the brain I don't think there is much knowlege we can gain unless the person decides to just open up about it which can still happen on death row.



AwakenNoMore said:


> I'm pissed off about this, however, gathering my scattered thoughts into a decent rant is a bit difficult, gotta love A.D.D.
> 
> It's really fucked up that the guy just up and kicks in the emergency exit of a theater and lays waste to a theater full of unarmed civilians. However the body count is a bit low for the ambush he waged. Obviously NO deaths would have been better, but the death toll could have been much much worse. The thing about it that bothers me is the fact that the WHOLE theater was unable to stop him. Not because they didn't try, because a few brave people gave their lives that night. There where also a few cowards, like the guy who dropped his baby and ran out leaving his infant and girlfriend behind. (who has now gone on TV ranting anti gun BS)
> 
> ...



A bunch of civilians having weapons in a crowded theater would have only raised the death toll. Could it have solved the problem? Maybe, but at a very high risk considering he had taken precautions.


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## Mexi (Jul 22, 2012)

yeah more guns would not have helped in the slightest. bottom line, a tragedy like this is not preventable. there will always be some lunatic that will find a way to go on some rampage if they have the motivation and means to do so, no matter the amount of firearm (de)regulation. It's interesting how a high-profile shooting like this happens almost exactly 1 year after Anders Breivik(sp?) killed 70+ people in Norway, a country with fairly decent gun regulation. so laws or no laws, batshit people will find a way to do batshit things.


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## Bobo (Jul 22, 2012)

flint757 said:


> rehab is definitely not an option, but dissecting him would be incredibly illegal as current laws stand.



But do you think he's any better than the common frog? Lol actually what I was trying to say is that maybe mental/psychiatric evaluations could be done in hopes of further understanding mental conditions.


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## flint757 (Jul 23, 2012)

Bobo said:


> But do you think he's any better than the common frog? Lol actually what I was trying to say is that maybe mental/psychiatric evaluations could be done in hopes of further understanding mental conditions.





Well they can still do that while he sits on death row if he does get the death sentence it will take a long ass time.


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## incinerated_guitar (Jul 23, 2012)

With the whole death sentence issue on this guy, back when I was still in high school we did a debate in my senior english class about if we had the choice between life sentence or death penalty, which would we chose? The majority of the class, aswell as myself, chose the death penalty, because its the easy way out. In all honesty, I think he just deserves life in prison. Make him suffer longer than he would with the death penalty. I do see it in other views though, like getting rid of him sooner would be nice, and it would be a great reperation to the loved ones of those who were killed during the incident. But in all honesty, let him be someones bitch for the rest of his life. Solitary confinement is another great punishment, as its known to drive a man insane (even if they already may be), or we figure something else out to do with him. Theres other ways than the death sentence. As stated before (if I remember this right...) Justice is doing whats right, revenge is what makes you feel better. But who knows, life sentence may be my own form of revenge.


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## flint757 (Jul 23, 2012)

one life sentence is not an entire lifetime however.


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## The Reverend (Jul 23, 2012)

The people who are trying to make this into a gun control debate are seriously lacking in critical thinking skills. It's pissing me off incredibly. 

First, for my liberal friends: There was nothing in this dude's history that would ever have prevented him from getting his hands on guns. Short of banning guns outright, he still would've gotten the weapons, as will others like him in the future. It's the price we pay for having a Constitution written when state militias were a necessity and the average American would be called upon to fight for his state and country.

Secondly, for my sometimes-distressingly-conservative-friends: Having more guns in the theater would not have solved a single goddamn thing. This guy threw either smoke or gas grenades, and wore body armor. No one even knew what he was doing at first, and members of the audience who could've stopped him would have to fire blind at an incredibly small target. I know body armor isn't like in the movies, it can only stop a round or two depending on the caliber, but still. You could not have Rambo'd your way out of this without collateral damage and before he got a shot off. 

This isn't directed at anybody here, it's just a general rant. I hate people, sometimes.


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## Winspear (Jul 23, 2012)

I read a headline on the front of a paper at work tonight stating how he was 'obsessed' with model Keeley Hazel and posed with a picture of her as one of his profile pictures. She says she is "shocked". 

How is this in any way relevant? A young man happens to like a very attractive nude model. How psychotic. Funny that the media consider this significant - The article didn't even state anything deeper with regards to this. 

It did however state that his more powerful weapon got jammed and if it hadn't, many more may have been killed. Yet they decided to keep Keeley as the headline 

With regards to the gun law discussion, I think it's pretty simple. There's nothing stopping anyone from waking into a public space and shooting dead _masses_ of people before something can be done about it. Hell, even if response is quick you can still pull a gun on one person, and that's enough. If I lived in America, I could go out and get a gun and kill many people just like that. That makes it black and white to me why they should not be legal.


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## Fiction (Jul 23, 2012)

To settle the gun debate, regardless of the law someone like this will find a way to a gun.

I'm still stunned at everything regarding this whole thing, the way people have reacted in this thread, everything, why? Where along the lines of your completely normal life do you decide months before a movie premier that you're going to aim for that exact theater filled with random people that have absolutely nothing against you.

Regardless of how you think of it this man should be locked up, I don't care whether he's in a dark jail cell or padded white room, break him down, cause there's no way in hell he's going to recover mentally from this.


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## BucketheadRules (Jul 23, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> I read a headline on the front of a paper at work tonight stating how he was 'obsessed' with model Keeley Hazel and posed with a picture of her as one of his profile pictures. She says she is "shocked".
> 
> How is this in any way relevant? A young man happens to like a very attractive nude model. How psychotic. Funny that the media consider this significant - The article didn't even state anything deeper with regards to this.



I don't blame him, she's ridiculously hot. 

But it is a totally irrelevant, insignficant point to make, you're right. It just suggests that the media will do literally anything to sell papers. I'm making assumptions now, but I guess they must have had a big photo of her on the cover, didn't they? The people who write this stuff don't give too much of a fuck about the lives lost, in all likelihood. They'll say they do, to save face, but they're likely to just be thinking of the best way to make money out of a tragedy like this. It's cruel, exploitative greed. Shameful.

And now they see fit to try and drag in blameless people who have no connection to this case whatsoever.

It's the bottom-feeders, they're coming out to play...


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## Korbain (Jul 23, 2012)

Chickenhawk said:


> Not saying all prisons are hyper-violent, but is it very easy to find out what your fellow inmate did to get jailed: Officers leak the information.
> 
> Not saying it's right, not saying I agree with it. Just saying it happens. A lot. Everywhere.



Hell yeah, word will spread very quickly about him. Im pretty sure he'll be locked away from everyone just incase...if he doesn't get executed. I honestly think he will, the scale of what he did, i don't think they'll go lightly on his sentence haha

Why waste money out of your economy keeping someone like him alive in a prison, apparently they're not getting any real information out of him anyway...or so i hear.


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## Jakke (Jul 23, 2012)

And now (of course) has the conspiracy assholes crawled out from under whatever rock they usually live under. I won't link anything, because paranoid ramblings should not be rewarded in any way, shape or form. I can relay a synopsis of this man's so-called thoughts however.

This deed was a false flag operation under the FBI, using a manchurian candidate. This false flag was put in place to sway the public opinion towards an assault weapon ban (since apparently the FBI thinks "banning assault weapons" means "banning all weapons"), this is to make the honest and god-fearing true patriots easier to conquer. Conquer? -You ask. Yes indeed, it's the New World Order again who are making a grab for the old US of A.
Evidence then?
Well, apart from the fact that every government ever is conspiring against its citizens at any given time (which is the smoking gun really), he has also used the time-tested method of anomaly hunting to make up a really scary conspiracy. See, the gear used was expensive... And that is the extent of this piece of evidence.. Which is also why every member here who is a student and owns expensive music-gear is on the NWO's payroll.
The next piece of evidence is that his explosive traps are far too complex to have been set by a layman (by his arbitrary standards of course), therefore he must have received special training by the FBI.
-Hey guys! Have you heard about this new thing called the internet? It's pretty cool, and I can find whatever illegal shit I want within five minutes.

And the cou de conspiracy to finish this cake of ignorance and paranoia is... *Drumroll*

A list with numbers of people killed under totalitarian governments and genocides!
-Really?
Yes indeed, this paranoid individual uses the holocaust and the culture revolution to prove that the american government is exactly the same.


These people make me sick. A terrible tragedy has happened, and the first thought to strike their pea-sized intellects is:
OMG EVIL GOVERNMENT DID THIS! I AM IN DANGER!!!
I got just as pissed by the truther-claims. It's fucking disrespectful to survivors and to victims' families to treat this like a fucking novel by Dan Brown.


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## bob123 (Jul 23, 2012)

Colorado shooting suspect James Holmes appears dazed in court | The Lookout - Yahoo! News


It appears he may have some semblance of a soul after all.


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## Randy (Jul 23, 2012)

Murdstone


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## Chickenhawk (Jul 23, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> The people who are trying to make this into a gun control debate are seriously lacking in critical thinking skills. It's pissing me off incredibly.
> 
> First, for my liberal friends: There was nothing in this dude's history that would ever have prevented him from getting his hands on guns. Short of banning guns outright, he still would've gotten the weapons, as will others like him in the future. It's the price we pay for having a Constitution written when state militias were a necessity and the average American would be called upon to fight for his state and country.
> 
> ...



We really don't agree on a lot, honestly, but I approve of this 

I'm very pro-gun. Everyone in my family carries (and my girlfriends family). We train religiously for any situation we can think of, and none of us (my father excluded, possibly) would have been able to do anything productive in that massively chaotic situation. 

There is a very small group; a specially trained few in this world that could have stopped that situation in the theater, and none of them are your average CCW holding civilian.



Korbain said:


> Why waste money out of your economy keeping someone like him alive in a prison, apparently they're not getting any real information out of him anyway...or so i hear.



Because that involves logic. Don't know much about the American Government, do ya?


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## L1ght (Jul 23, 2012)

"A decision on whether to seek the death penalty could be weeks or months away, District Attorney Carol Chambers told reporters as she entered the courthouse.

"It will be a conversation we have with the victims before we make that decision," Chambers said."

Wait... What? Correct me if I am wrong, but since when did civilians other then the jury have the right to decide who gets the death penalty and who does not, regardless if they are the families of the victims? 

If this is actually true, there is an extremely high chance he might be executed.


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## flint757 (Jul 23, 2012)

L1ght said:


> "A decision on whether to seek the death penalty could be weeks or months away, District Attorney Carol Chambers told reporters as she entered the courthouse.
> 
> "It will be a conversation we have with the victims before we make that decision," Chambers said."
> 
> ...



I don't know much about law, but I think it is the prosecutor or DA who decides if they are going for the death penalty in the first place. So the prosecutor could be basing their decision on what this person has to say. The jury can decide if they fill it is too harsh, but that is after the trial not before. Again I could be wrong. (probably?)


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## bob123 (Jul 23, 2012)

flint757 said:


> I don't know much about law, but I think it is the prosecutor or DA who decides if they are going for the death penalty in the first place. So the prosecutor could be basing their decision on what this person has to say. The jury can decide if they fill it is too harsh, but that is after the trial not before. Again I could be wrong. (probably?)




sounds to me like they need a new DA!! What the fuck man.... 

Justice is supposed to be blind, not based on family members feelings....


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## Fiction (Jul 23, 2012)

flint757 said:


> one life sentence is not an entire lifetime however.



Could he not be charged with several counts of murder, stacking the sentences?


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## L1ght (Jul 23, 2012)

Fiction said:


> Could he not be charged with several counts of murder, stacking the sentences?



He can. He can be sentenced to more then one life sentence depending on the severity of the crime. And this is severe lol.


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## L1ght (Jul 23, 2012)

bob123 said:


> sounds to me like they need a new DA!! What the fuck man....
> 
> Justice is supposed to be blind, not based on family members feelings....



That's exactly what I had in mind when I posted the quote that the DA said. I don't think it would even be a trial at all if the family of the victims/victims had some sort of 3rd party input on whether or not he dies or lives.


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## Guitarmiester (Jul 23, 2012)

I watched the live trial at work this morning. The heavy security was somewhat shocking, yet I know I shouldn't have been too surprised. He was escorted via underground tunnel from the jail to the court and back with a bullet-proof vest. Makes me wonder if they were that concerned or tipped off about a possible attack in transit? 

A lot of the headlines were annoying as hell, with all of the _"dazed in court!"_ titles. Sure, the hair, disheveledness, and dozing off didn't help any kind of image for the public, but I'm sure he's been interrogated since being in custody with little to no sleep. Seems like the media tried to play that off as more of a _"hey look everyone! This guy doesn't care what he did and will sleep throughout his trials!" _

Should be interesting to see how this pans out for next Monday's hearing, especially since he really doesn't have any room to plead insanity.


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## flint757 (Jul 23, 2012)

Yeah his clean record and pre-planning tells me he may be ill, but he is not insane just fucking evil. Honestly I don't understand why everyone defends people who commit crimes like this on the notion they may be "sick". Of course they are sick. If I have a seizure and get in a car accident I'm still liable and that would be out of my control unlike what he did (or anything similar).


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## bob123 (Jul 23, 2012)

Guitarmiester said:


> I watched the live trial at work this morning. The heavy security was somewhat shocking, yet I know I shouldn't have been too surprised. He was escorted via underground tunnel from the jail to the court and back with a bullet-proof vest. Makes me wonder if they were that concerned or tipped off about a possible attack in transit?
> 
> A lot of the headlines were annoying as hell, with all of the _"dazed in court!"_ titles. Sure, the hair, disheveledness, and dozing off didn't help any kind of image for the public, but I'm sure he's been interrogated since being in custody with little to no sleep. Seems like the media tried to play that off as more of a _"hey look everyone! This guy doesn't care what he did and will sleep throughout his trials!" _
> 
> Should be interesting to see how this pans out for next Monday's hearing, especially since he really doesn't have any room to plead insanity.



I agree. I saw some pictures of him in court, its like he "woke up" almost, I can see the sadness in him.


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## The Reverend (Jul 24, 2012)

bob123 said:


> I agree. I saw some pictures of him in court, its like he "woke up" almost, I can see the sadness in him.



I wonder if he feels remorse for his actions, or whether he regrets not going out in a hail of gunfire.


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## flint757 (Jul 24, 2012)

Okay, apparently asking the family is because it will take a long time like upwards of 20 years before he would be executed and the families would have to be involved in that so keeping that in regard I'd say their input is valid. Plus never hearing any results (open ended case) would really weigh on the victim's minds in an arguably detrimental way.


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## Korbain (Jul 24, 2012)

L1ght said:


> He can. He can be sentenced to more then one life sentence depending on the severity of the crime. And this is severe lol.



for sure, he'll get 12 counts of murder against him. And god knows how many other charges, if he doesn't get the death penatly he'll be in jail till he does die.


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## thatguy87 (Jul 24, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> Don't they have for-profit prisons in the UK? We've certainly got them here.



I'm from Texas. and still a waste of money and oxygen.


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## Guitarmiester (Jul 24, 2012)

The media has had no new information to run so they've been publishing the worst articles ever. The latest _buzz_ I've seen is that there's speculation regarding his behavior and how he may be faking. 

I can't wait to read what kind of spin on his drowsiness the media will think up next. Have any _"He's a decoy!"_ stories come up? If not, that's where my money is for upcoming breaking news while authorities have yet to get a word out of him.


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## McKay (Jul 24, 2012)

The Reverend said:


> The people who are trying to make this into a gun control debate are seriously lacking in critical thinking skills. It's pissing me off incredibly.
> 
> First, for my liberal friends: There was nothing in this dude's history that would ever have prevented him from getting his hands on guns. Short of banning guns outright, he still would've gotten the weapons, as will others like him in the future. It's the price we pay for having a Constitution written when state militias were a necessity and the average American would be called upon to fight for his state and country.
> 
> ...



Where your analysis fails - If his smoke would have stopped any effective resistance it would also prevent him from firing accurately.


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## The Reverend (Jul 24, 2012)

McKay said:


> Where your analysis fails - If his smoke would have stopped any effective resistance it would also prevent him from firing accurately.



He had a 100-round drum instead of a normal magazine, and wasn't trying to hit unprotected areas on armored targets. The only reason the body count wasn't higher was because his gun jammed. When you're just firing into a crowd, you don't need to see what you're hitting.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 25, 2012)

Some times having more good people armed could save the day, and other times it could greatly complicate if not worsen the situation. It's a gamble really.
If only two or three guys would have went for the big hit (Ray Lewis style) all at once, but in such chaos it's hard to cordinate. Seems that Holmes created some space with the smoke and his sick preperation.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> Where your analysis fails - If his smoke would have stopped any effective resistance it would also prevent him from firing accurately.


Yeah, it's all about accuracy when firing a fully automatic weapon into a huge crowd that's stuck in a square room with nothing but flimsy seats as cover.


The Reverend said:


> He had a 100-round drum instead of a normal magazine, and wasn't trying to hit unprotected areas on armored targets. The only reason the body count wasn't higher was because his gun jammed. When you're just firing into a crowd, you don't need to see what you're hitting.


'd


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## McKay (Jul 25, 2012)

Have you ever actually fired a gun? That's not how they work. If you fire all over the place you'll miss more often than not. If the smoke was so thick as to prevent any successful retaliation it would have prevented him from making anything close to a clear shot.

Or are you missing the point? Had someone in there been armed they would quite possibly had the ability to shoot back. Smoke or no smoke.


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## Guitarmiester (Jul 25, 2012)

Shoot back at what? The half coward/half tank that was suited up to take on an army of movie goers armed with deliciously, buttered popcorn and skittles?


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## Mexi (Jul 25, 2012)

'Dark Knight Rises' star Christian Bale visits victims of Aurora theater massacre - NY Daily News

good to see that christian bale made good on the rumours that he would be visiting aurora. also good to see that he did it as an "individual" and not a spokesman of the production company


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> Have you ever actually fired a gun? That's not how they work. If you fire all over the place you'll miss more often than not. If the smoke was so thick as to prevent any successful retaliation it would have prevented him from making anything close to a clear shot.
> 
> Or are you missing the point? Had someone in there been armed they would quite possibly had the ability to shoot back. Smoke or no smoke.


Have you? If you're shooting at something the size of a human, especially an entire theater full of ones that are crowding an exit door, it's not hard to hit something in a huge mass like that. It'd be like shooting two portapotties sitting side by side. And once again: 100 round magazine, crowded theater. He didn't need a clear shot. He probably did miss more often than not, I assume that's why he brought so much goddamn ammunition.

Are you missing the point? He was wearing an assload of body armor and had way more ammo than any civilian who was legally carrying would have.



You still haven't figured out that being a contrary asshole all the time doesn't make you "cynical", it makes you a contrary asshole.


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## McKay (Jul 25, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Have you? If you're shooting at something the size of a human, especially an entire theater full of ones that are crowding an exit door, it's not hard to hit something in a huge mass like that. It'd be like shooting two portapotties sitting side by side. And once again: 100 round magazine, crowded theater. He didn't need a clear shot. He probably did miss more often than not, I assume that's why he brought so much goddamn ammunition.
> 
> Are you missing the point? He was wearing an assload of body armor and had way more ammo than any civilian who was legally carrying would have.



What is your point? The smoke wouldn't have obscured enough people's vision long enough for it to have stopped someone with a CCW from shooting back. Body armour would have kept him alive but he would still be out of the fight. Getting someone down for a few seconds is enough time to save lives.



> You still haven't figured out that being a contrary asshole all the time doesn't make you "cynical", it makes you a contrary asshole.


As opposed to just an asshole. Whoever threw out the neg rep, keep it coming. Offering a different opinion when it seems pertinent is not grounds for getting personal. I'd like to know what is moronic about my post - assuming the smoke was thick enough to stop anyone firing back, spraying bullets into a hall sized area with an AR-15 will not be particularly accurate. Someone with a CCW could have fired back if the area was not a no-gun zone.

What exactly about those two statements is illogical?


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> What is your point? My point is that the smoke wouldn't have obscured enough people's vision long enough for it to have stopped someone with a CCW from shooting back. Body armour would have kept him alive but he would still be out of the fight. Getting someone down for a few seconds is enough time to save lives.
> 
> As opposed to just an asshole. Whoever threw out the neg rep, keep it coming. Offering a different opinion when it seems pertinent is not grounds for getting personal. Mature.


My point is that it seems like you're being contrary for the sake of it, like you do all the time in threads around here.

So, say more than 1 other person in the theater was armed, guy comes in and starts shooting people, other person pulls out a gun to shoot back, now there are two people shooting, someone else with a gun sees the other person pull out a gun and assumes "accomplice" and starts blasting on them, etc. Confusion+more guns, could go either way. Coming up with what "could have" happened scenarios is pointless. And also, since he took the time to get body armor, if he did get shot, he may have been expecting/prepared for it, so getting hit once also wouldn't necessarily take him down so much as divert his attention to the direction of the person who shot at him. We can throw alternative scenarios back and forth all day.

Wasn't me, but I don't blame them. And as for calling me just an asshole, I'm not the one who goes on little sprees of posting in random threads being a  for no reason all the time. Everytime I see your name on the end of a bunch of threads in the "new posts" feed, it's almost always just you shitting on people and trying to pass it off as "I'm just so cynical bro". 

EDIT: TL;DR making this into a gun control discussion is annoying no matter what side you're on, and you're not cynical, you're rude.[/axe_to_grind] 

EDIT2:


> I'd like to know what is moronic about my post - assuming the smoke was thick enough to stop anyone firing back, spraying bullets into a hall sized area with an AR-15 will not be particularly accurate. Someone with a CCW could have fired back if the area was not a no-gun zone.
> 
> What exactly about those two statements is illogical?


Well: whoever is shooting back would have a handgun and probably one clip, and would be aiming at a single, smaller target obscured by smoke. Whereas he had a rifle and extended magazine, even if he just pray and sprayed, people are going to run for the exits, so it's obvious that just shooting towards the door would hit people. Plus, he had a ton more ammo, so if they did shoot at him, even if they hit him, if it wasn't a kill shot he'd just light them up and keep going most likely.

Any alternative scenario is going to be able to have holes poked in it from the other side.


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## McKay (Jul 25, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> My point is that it seems like you're being contrary for the sake of it, like you do all the time in threads around here.



That's an assumption. I'm contrary because through debate you learn, even if stubbornness means people don't see it. My ego isn't so big that I'm afraid to put an opinion out there and learn from the discourse.

People don't truly formulate ideas until they're discussed, so what use is keeping vague thoughts bottled up? Get them out, talk them over and enjoy the debate. You can't have a debate if all sides agree.



> So, say more than 1 other person in the theater was armed, guy comes in and starts shooting people, other person pulls out a gun to shoot back, now there are two people shooting, someone else with a gun sees the other person pull out a gun and assumes "accomplice" and starts blasting on them, etc. Confusion+more guns, could go either way. Coming up with what "could have" happened scenarios is pointless. And also, since he took the time to get body armor, if he did get shot, he may have been expecting/prepared for it, so getting hit once also wouldn't necessarily take him down so much as divert his attention to the direction of the person who shot at him. _*We can throw alternative scenarios back and forth all day*._


Then what's the harm in it?



> Wasn't me, but I don't blame them. And as for calling me just an asshole, I'm not the one who goes on little sprees of posting in random threads being a  for no reason all the time. Everytime I see your name on the end of a bunch of threads in the "new posts" feed, it's almost always just you shitting on people and trying to pass it off as "I'm just so cynical bro".


Random threads? It's the politics board, I post in what interests me and when I feel I have something to contribute. You clearly don't think it's asshole behavior to point out errors in people's logic (or we wouldn't be having this conversation) so why does it bother you when I do it?


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 25, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Yeah, it's all about accuracy when firing a fully automatic weapon into a huge crowd that's stuck in a square room with nothing but flimsy seats as cover.


Well actually if anyone was making this into a gun control debate the gun being fully auto would make it completely null. Automatic rifles are only obtainable by those who have gone through the appropriate steps, those of which he had not done, making it completely illegal and above gun control. Though the ar-15 he was using was not fully auto none the less, if it was he would have likely hit even less people due to the kick back.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> That's an assumption. I'm contrary because through debate you learn, even if stubbornness means people don't see it. My ego isn't so big that I'm afraid to put an opinion out there and learn from the discourse.
> 
> Then what's the harm in it?
> 
> Random threads? It's the politics board, I post in what interests me and when I feel I have something to contribute. You clearly don't think it's asshole behavior to point out errors in people's logic (or we wouldn't be having this conversation) so why does it bother you when I do it?


Fair enough. 

In this particular thread and in this instance, it seems like it just distracts from what happened and becomes a game of who loves guns vs who hates guns.

It's not always PC&E, I've just noticed you go on posting sprees just being negative/abrupt/unwarrantably rude in five or six threads, multiple times and try to pass it off as cynicism. ( I did notice it first after you did it in one of my threads, and then saw that you did the same sort of thing in another couple of threads right after, but I'm very much not butthurt that you don't like my mustache )


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## McKay (Jul 25, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> In this particular thread and in this instance, it seems like it just distracts from what happened and becomes a game of who loves guns vs who hates guns.
> 
> It's not always PC&E, I've just noticed you go on posting sprees just being negative/abrupt/ unwarrantably rude in five or six threads, multiple times. ( I did notice it first after you did it in one of my threads, and then saw that you did the same sort of thing in another couple of threads right after, but I'm very much not butthurt that you don't like my mustache )



I said I didn't like your moustache? I can't even remember that. There's room in life for negativity but not overt rudeness. I try not to be rude both online and off but life would be boring if everyone agreed about everything.



> Well actually if anyone was making this into a gun control debate the gun being fully auto would make it completely null. Automatic rifles are only obtainable by those who have gone through the appropriate steps, those of which he had not done, making it completely illegal and above gun control. Though the ar-15 he was using was not fully auto none the less, if it was he would have likely hit even less people due to the kick back.


Especially if he was unable to see, which is the argument against the idea of the audience shooting back.


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> Especially if he was unable to see, which is the argument against the idea of the audience shooting back.


Yes, I commented a bit back in the thread about this. Shooting back is one of the worst things anyone could have done. The chance of hitting any wayward innocents in the process is too high, especially with the amount of panic and inability to see. I'm actually for concealed carry and such, but in this situation firing back would not have been the right action.


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## McKay (Jul 25, 2012)

Sephiroth952 said:


> Yes, I commented a bit back in the thread about this. Shooting back is one of the worst things anyone could have done. The chance of hitting any wayward innocents in the process is too high, especially with the amount of panic and inability to see. I'm actually for concealed carry and such, but in this situation firing back would not have been the right action.



I hadn't given that much thought. I suppose I imagined him to be shooting people at much closer range if there was smoke about, or that the smoke had dissipated after a while.


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> I hadn't given that much thought. I suppose I imagined him to be shooting people at much closer range if there was smoke about, or that the smoke had dissipated after a while.


Even without smoke hitting a moving target in the dark would be quite the feet. This man was covered in body armor and I'm assuming very few vulnerable spots. Hitting these spots in the semi-dark, in a mass panic, with limited ammo would be hard. Not to mention your pistol flares would probably draw his attention, and him having more ammo and you having no armor will probably not turn out well in your favor.


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## McKay (Jul 25, 2012)

Sephiroth952 said:


> Even without smoke hitting a moving target in the dark would be quite the feet. This man was covered in body armor and I'm assuming very few vulnerable spots. Hitting these spots in the semi-dark, in a mass panic, with limited ammo would be hard. Not to mention your pistol flares would probably draw his attention, and him having more ammo and you having no armor will probably not turn out well in your favor.



The question is though, is there a solution to shootings like these? I'm never really decided on gun rights.

Does the right to bear arms necessary extend to personal ownership? You could have your right to arms facilitated through militias? Is this one of the consequences of the ability to defend yourself with firearms? It seems that a lot of the debate boils down to whether it's worth the price.


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## Sephiroth952 (Jul 25, 2012)

McKay said:


> The question is though, is there a solution to shootings like these? I'm never really decided on gun rights.
> 
> Does the right to bear arms necessary extend to personal ownership? You could have your right to arms facilitated through militias. Or is this kind of thing an unfortunate consequence to the liberty of arms ownership?


Really this man was quite determined either way. While these shooting make guns in a bad light, any one who knows better will know gun owners are usually upstanding citizens. If it wasn't a gun he could have made a bomb. He had the knowledge, and with the internet he could do all the research he needed. Remember those like Tim Mcveigh didn't need a firearm to be deadly on a massive scale.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 25, 2012)

He had his car right there, and was definetly in the mind frame to mow people down.


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## The Reverend (Jul 25, 2012)

Mexi said:


> 'Dark Knight Rises' star Christian Bale visits victims of Aurora theater massacre - NY Daily News
> 
> good to see that christian bale made good on the rumours that he would be visiting aurora. also good to see that he did it as an "individual" and not a spokesman of the production company



I saw the thing going around Facebook saying something about Christian Bale visiting those in the hospital dressed as Batman. While it would've been nice for the kids, I'm glad he didn't do that. Something about seems like the kind of publicity no one should ever try to get.


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## BrainArt (Jul 25, 2012)

Chickenhawk said:


> He killed children, he'll be slaughtered in prison. There's a code of honor among violent criminals. Women beaters, pedophiles, and child murderers are sub-human to them.
> 
> Source: My father, who has spent 16+ years working in the Correctional system, and the past 3 years as an FBI Hostage Negotiator Trainer.
> 
> ...



This.



Grand Moff Tim said:


> Far as I know, some prisons won't put offenders with crimes like that in General Population, to avoid "retribution" from the other inmates. I don't know how common that is, or if it's even true, but I've watched a ton of LaO:SVU, so I'm pretty much an expert on criminal justice .



Oh, it's true.

My source? A relative who spent some time in a prison.


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## rgaRyan (Jul 25, 2012)

Do you guys believe his little 'act' that he's insane? Nodding off in court, spitting at guards. I think it's all a ploy to get them to believe his insane so he gets off easy.

He had no prior indication of insanity or mental problems, why all of a sudden would a sane person turn psychotic? 

It's really weird. I think he should be put in solitary confinement for a good 10 years, and then slowly chopped to pieces. Bastard serves no purpose on this earth, eye for an eye.


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## flint757 (Jul 25, 2012)

To me he just sounds like an asshole who didn't get enough sleep and maybe came to terms with the fact that he is ultimately screwed. What I don't get is why does that make him insane and yet his sanity is only questionable after murdering/injuring a lot of people.


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## Jakke (Jul 25, 2012)

rgaRyan said:


> Do you guys believe his little 'act' that he's insane? Nodding off in court, spitting at guards. I think it's all a ploy to get them to believe his insane so he gets off easy.
> 
> He had no prior indication of insanity or mental problems, why all of a sudden would a sane person turn psychotic?
> 
> It's really weird. I think he should be put in solitary confinement for a good 10 years, and then slowly chopped to pieces. Bastard serves no purpose on this earth, eye for an eye.



And your evidence for this being an act is that he has shown no previous mental problems? By that logic all psykotics fake it as well, as they show no indication of illness before their first psykosis.

But then, I would assume you have done a ton of research in the area to be able to be so sure... I mean, you would never speak so certain of yourself without any credentials, right?


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## rgaRyan (Jul 25, 2012)

Jakke said:


> And your evidence for this being an act is that he has shown no previous mental problems? By that logic all psykotics fake it as well, as they show no indication of illness before their first psykosis.
> 
> But then, I would assume you have done a ton of research in the area to be able to be so sure... I mean, you would never speak so certain of yourself without any credentials, right?


Whoa don't take my opinion so harshly... I'm just saying...

Maybe he knows how to fake it so well because he studied neuroscience, I don't know. I just think he is faking it.


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## flint757 (Jul 25, 2012)

And who's to ultimately say he isn't (or is)?


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## Jakke (Jul 25, 2012)

rgaRyan said:


> Whoa don't take my opinion so harshly... I'm just saying...
> 
> Maybe he knows how to fake it so well because he studied neuroscience, I don't know. I just think he is faking it.



No bad blood here man, I just thought it to be in order to point out that far from all disorders develop visibly over time. As for his studies, I kind of doubt it. A psychologist might be able to, but neuroscience has much more to do with the structure of the brain.




flint757 said:


> And who's to ultimately say he isn't (or is)?



Well, hopefully the board of expert psykiatrists. I'm sure they have the credentials most of us lack


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## Randy (Jul 25, 2012)

Sorry if I'm asking something that's already been asked in this thread but I'm not fully aware of what constitutes insanity as an acceptable plea. To elaborate, I personally consider anybody willing to kill another person to be 'not all there' but obviously that's not the legal definition. I know premeditation and more specifically, murder for gain (financial, etc.) aren't considered "insane" but in and of it's own, killing a random group of people with no clear reason seems kind of insane...?


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## flint757 (Jul 25, 2012)

A crime is a crime. IMO The government includes intent for whatever reason which is why insanity is viable in the first place. They, themselves are not fully aware of what constitutes insanity however. It is quite ambiguous and is what is contributing to the current delays and supposedly year long trial coming up. Personally, he committed a heinous act, ruined many peoples live and ended others, there was premeditation and he admitted it so I'm not sure why it should take a year in the first place.


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## synrgy (Jul 25, 2012)

flint757 said:


> so I'm not sure why it should take a year in the first place.



Because lawyers.


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## Jakke (Jul 25, 2012)

Randy said:


> Sorry if I'm asking something that's already been asked in this thread but I'm not fully aware of what constitutes insanity as an acceptable plea. To elaborate, I personally consider anybody willing to kill another person to be 'not all there' but obviously that's not the legal definition. I know premeditation and more specifically, murder for gain (financial, etc.) aren't considered "insane" but in and of it's own, killing a random group of people with no clear reason seems kind of insane...?



I don't know how it works in the US, but here insanity constitutes (this is not legalese) that someone is not responsible for their own actions. Say for example you have a psykosis, become paranoid, and try to kill the lizards stalking you. Even though you killed, say, two people, you lacked malicious intent. I think this guy has a good case for pleading insanity, as he seemed to believe he were the Joker at the time.

A psykopath or a sociopath (as most serial killers are, for example) are not considered to be insane, they know right from wrong, and can therefore be held accountable for their actions.


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## rgaRyan (Jul 25, 2012)

Actually I don't care what his mental state is, even if he murdered one person, my belief is that he should be killed as well. I know it doesn't solve anything and can't bring back the people he killed, but it just feels good (to me) to know that he is dead and will no longer be able to commit any other heinous actions on this planet.


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## Xaios (Jul 25, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Even though you killed, say, two people, you lacked malicious intent. I think this guy has a good case for pleading insanity, as he seemed to believe he were the Joker at the time.



My understanding is that this has been refuted. Some source said that he was screaming "I AM THE JOKER" or something as he was getting arrested. However, I've heard since that this wasn't truly the case. And even if it was, if this new tidbit of news is true then it clearly shows premeditation. At this point, I think the psychiatric picture is quite a bit different from someone who's out of their mind, such as Nathan Gale.



rgaRyan said:


> Actually I don't care what his mental state is, even if he murdered one person, my belief is that he should be killed as well. I know it doesn't solve anything and can't bring back the people he killed, but it just feels good (to me) to know that he is dead and will no longer be able to commit any other heinous actions on this planet.



While I'm not a total supporter of the death penalty, I believe it's justified in certain extreme scenarios. I haven't decided if this is one of them (the trial will determine that), but I find your attitude towards the matter quite alarming. The death penalty should only be used not only a) when the crimes of the guilty party are extreme, which they are in this case, but also b) when there's no better option for society. We have no idea if this guy can be rehabilitated yet. And until we do, calls for the death penalty aren't going to be based on rational thought, but rather a kneejerk reaction. The thing about kneejerk reactions is that they're often dead wrong. If the possibility exists that he could eventually be turned into a productive member of society, then we have to try.

What's done is done. No amount of wishful thinking is going to bring the deceased back. But let's not add to the bodycount unless we absolutely must. Meeting murder with more murder is no way for a civilized society to operate.


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## rgaRyan (Jul 25, 2012)

I live in a smaller city and back in 2006, a 12 year old girl and her boyfriend murdered her entire family. Her mother, father, and 8 year old brother. The father was killed in a fight with the boyfriend and I believe the brother and mother were killed in their sleep. Both suspects were high on drugs.

Stupid thing is that the boyfriend is serving 25 years, while the girl is only under supervision and will be attending a university in Calgary this year or the next. Obviously because she was under the age of 18, they couldn't give her a much longer, deserved sentence.

With minds as corrupt as theirs, I believe they both should have been killed, but Canada doesn't have the death penalty. Pisses me off.

I don't think she deserves to be let back into the public. She planned to murder her family so she could run away with her crackhead boyfriend. She should be put in jail for the same amount of time as him, regardless if she was only 12 at the time.


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## Guitarmiester (Jul 25, 2012)

So, the latest is he wrote out plans in a notebook and drew stick figure depictions of the attack he planned, which has been sitting in a pile of mail for over a week at the University's medical campus. 

There's a curveball every day in this case.


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## Xaios (Jul 25, 2012)

rgaRyan said:


> I live in a smaller city and back in 2006, a 12 year old girl and her boyfriend murdered her entire family. Her mother, father, and 8 year old brother. The father was killed in a fight with the boyfriend and I believe the brother and mother were killed in their sleep. Both suspects were high on drugs.
> 
> Stupid thing is that the boyfriend is serving 25 years, while the girl is only under supervision and will be attending a university in Calgary this year or the next. Obviously because she was under the age of 18, they couldn't give her a much longer, deserved sentence.
> 
> ...



Okay, I'm going to say this while trying my best to keep my jaw from hitting the floor.

You actually believe that the state should have executed a 12 year old girl?

Do you know how insane that sounds?
Yes, the girl in this case was obviously troubled. While I'm ambivalent as to whether or not he would deserve execution, 12 year old girls do not fully comprehend the consequences of their actions, no matter what anyone says. They may be aware of it, yes, but that doesn't mean they truly understand it. I guarantee you that, especially if he was feeding her drugs.

You really need to rethink your ideas on what constitutes justice.


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## Jakke (Jul 26, 2012)

Xaios said:


> My understanding is that this has been refuted. Some source said that he was screaming "I AM THE JOKER" or something as he was getting arrested. However, I've heard since that this wasn't truly the case. And even if it was, if this new tidbit of news is true then it clearly shows premeditation. At this point, I think the psychiatric picture is quite a bit different from someone who's out of their mind, such as Nathan Gale.



Really? Interesting.



rgaRyan said:


> Actually I don't care what his mental state is, even if he murdered one person, my belief is that he should be killed as well. I know it doesn't solve anything and can't bring back the people he killed, but it just feels good (to me) to know that he is dead and will no longer be able to commit any other heinous actions on this planet.



I have to strongly disagree, people who are not responsible for their own actions (such as someone who is insane) should never be excecuted (well, IMO no one should be excecuted).

To tie in your story, so a 12-year old is not mature enough to sign a contract, but mature enough to be excecuted?
Well, Canada has signed the bill for children's rights. It forbidds the excecution of minors, so even if you had the death penalty, it still wouldn't happen. A bill that the US still has not signed, together with China and Somalia (I believe)...


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 26, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Canada has signed the bill for children's rights. It forbidds the excecution of minors, so even if you had the death penalty, it still wouldn't happen. A bill that the US still has not signed, together with China and Somalia (I believe)...


 
Which is a shame, because America executes little kids _all the time_, man.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 26, 2012)

Yelp, even if they gave the death penalty to a 10yr old in US, that 10yr old would be like 73 before being served sentence.
Exhagerating of course, but really, how many more years did Tim McVay get more than his victims?
If they ever want any of this (like death penalty) to be a detterent, they need to make it swiftly served.
That all boils down to our legal eagle dominated court system, in which things are dragged and dragged all for the sake of legal fees IMO.


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## Jakke (Jul 26, 2012)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Which is a shame, because America executes little kids _all the time_, man.



I know you don't, I'm not trying to insinuate something here. I believe Texas (for example) has the legal limit for execution at sixteen, which is not really a child, but still a minor.


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## flint757 (Jul 26, 2012)

It doesn't happen though, but at sixteen imo you are responsible for your actions. When I was sixteen I may have been hormonal, but I knew right from wrong. Your stance on mentally ill people and minors being executed though is moot since you are against the death penalty in general with little to no exception.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 27, 2012)

This is one of the few things I agree with conservatives on. I'm pro-death penalty. The fact of the matter is that if you walk into a crowded theater and start a turkey shoot, your ass needs to fry. There are SO many lives that you tore apart by your actions, and while it may not bring the victims back, it would be a slap in the face of many of their families if this guy got to sit in a posh padded room somewhere because "omg, we can't kill him!". Why not? He had no problem shooting your kids, spouse, relatives, friends, and whoever else without a second thought and if turned loose, he'd probably do it again.

I agree with Trenchlord though. Our death penalty system is only a minor deterrent. Reason being that appeal after appeal after appeal is done on every tiny technicality and it gets delayed to the point where the offender may as well have just gotten life in prison. It's all a legal song and dance these days. My reason for supporting it? Nah, not revenge. It's a major deterrent. Think about it...would you be as likely to wanna kill someone if you knew that the consequence for doing so was forfeiting your own life? I guess crimes of passion, etc are to be considered as well, and yeah I admit that having prior knowledge of consequences wouldn't be much of a factor if you really did temporarily lose your damn mind. But to be honest, so many people use that defense when they damn well knew what they were doing. 

Jmo of course, but if you really valued your life and liberty, you wouldn't have made it a mission to deny others the same, so you get what you deserve when it comes time for that lethal injection.


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## Semichastny (Jul 27, 2012)

I don't really support the death penalty unless it's situations like this where there is extremely little to no doubt about who committed the crime. It's cheaper to house them for life and lets be honest, life in jail is way more severe a punishment then the death penalty. Plus who wouldn't want some free labor!


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## flint757 (Jul 27, 2012)

I agree in more obscure cases the death penalty should be off the table.


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## Jakke (Jul 27, 2012)

Ghost, show me stats that show killing people to illustrate that killing is wrong has a deterent effect, I might support your viewpoint. The trouble is, no one has been able to produce them. If we consider, for example the 19th century, people were usually hanged a week to a month after they were sentenced. It was also often public executions (the early part of the century at least), so it was quick sentences, and people saw when they were executed as well (and hanging is quite grim too). Now by your own words, there is little deterence because of many appeals and a long time between sentence and execution. So, shouldn't then 19th century London (chosen as an example because of the olympics) be a haven from criminality? 
I mean, criminals got killed very quickly, and kids got to see through public executions where crime could get you.

There is a sociological justification why there is no deterence from the death penalty, I've said it before, but I have no problem with repeating myself.
There are three reasons people commit crimes. Crimes for profit, passion, or compulsion.
Crimes for profit cannot be detered because included in them are crimes poor people commit out of desperation. Contract killers are in here as well, they are professionals and take a calculated risk with their criminality.
Crimes of passion are not detered because there is no logical thought involved, if you kill a cheating partner in the heat of the moment, are you really considering what might happen afterwards?
Crimes of compulsion cannot be detered, because they are a compulsion. Did John Wayne Gacy consider the consequences of his actions?


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## flint757 (Jul 27, 2012)

I'm curious as well so I might look it up later. My very personal opinion is that people like this don't deserve to be rehabilitated, but whether that means life sentence or death penalty I don't really care. Charles Manson had life in prison with chance for parole and you can bet your ass he'll never get out despite that. I see similar circumstances here as well. I don't honestly understand, however, how anyone can think it is alright for him to ever be released. He does not deserve freedom and whether ill or sane he can't be trusted in the first place.


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## Jakke (Jul 27, 2012)

There is also the philosophical paradox of the death penalty (which I know is not a real paradox, no need to be a smartass).
Murder is the killing of someone innocent, I believe most people would agree with that. If you agree with that, and someone innocent is executed in your state, you are by your own definition a murderer and deserving of the death penalty.

Just the sometimes rampant prosecutorial misconduct is a good reason not to support the death penalty.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 27, 2012)

ghstofperdition said:


> This is one of the few things I agree with conservatives on. I'm pro-death penalty. The fact of the matter is that if you walk into a crowded theater and start a turkey shoot, your ass needs to fry. There are SO many lives that you tore apart by your actions, and while it may not bring the victims back, it would be a slap in the face of many of their families if this guy got to sit in a posh padded room somewhere because "omg, we can't kill him!". Why not? He had no problem shooting your kids, spouse, relatives, friends, and whoever else without a second thought and if turned loose, he'd probably do it again.
> 
> I agree with Trenchlord though. Our death penalty system is only a minor deterrent. Reason being that appeal after appeal after appeal is done on every tiny technicality and it gets delayed to the point where the offender may as well have just gotten life in prison. It's all a legal song and dance these days. My reason for supporting it? Nah, not revenge. It's a major deterrent. Think about it...would you be as likely to wanna kill someone if you knew that the consequence for doing so was forfeiting your own life? I guess crimes of passion, etc are to be considered as well, and yeah I admit that having prior knowledge of consequences wouldn't be much of a factor if you really did temporarily lose your damn mind. But to be honest, so many people use that defense when they damn well knew what they were doing.
> 
> Jmo of course, but if you really valued your life and liberty, you wouldn't have made it a mission to deny others the same, so you get what you deserve when it comes time for that lethal injection.



Too bad statistics say otherwise. I love the idea of the death penalty but its not effective...

In fact, the murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia. Neither country has the DP. Texas has twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't have the DP. Texas and Oklahoma have historically executed the most number of DR inmates, yet in 2003 their state murder rates increased, and both have murder rates higher than the national average.


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## Fiction (Jul 27, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Too bad statistics say otherwise. I love the idea of the death penalty but its not effective...
> 
> In fact, the murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia. Neither country has the DP. Texas has twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't have the DP. Texas and Oklahoma have historically executed the most number of DR inmates, yet in 2003 their state murder rates increased, and both have murder rates higher than the national average.



Whilst the stats say so, I do not see the death penalty as being an incentive of having a murder rate up to 6x more then those without..

There must be something in the water 

(I'm on your side about it not being a deterant though)


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 27, 2012)

No you're right, not the only factor but there are better stats, I did not research right.


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## flint757 (Jul 28, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Too bad statistics say otherwise. I love the idea of the death penalty but its not effective...
> 
> In fact, the murder rate in the US is 6 times that of Britain and 5 times that of Australia. Neither country has the DP. Texas has twice the murder rate of Wisconsin, a state that doesn't have the DP. Texas and Oklahoma have historically executed the most number of DR inmates, yet in 2003 their state murder rates increased, and both have murder rates higher than the national average.



It isn't much of a deterrent. The reason crime is so bad in Texas is probably because we have such terrible social programs forcing those who are unable to get jobs to lead a life of crime. That and rehabilitation here is the worst. If you get even a misdemeanor good luck finding a job. The 2003 statistic you should note that that is the same year hurricane Katrina hit and all the poor people from Louisiana moved in to south east Texas (and never went back). Crime in general in the Houston area has been worse since.


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## Necris (Jul 29, 2012)

Billboard compares Obama to Aurora shooting suspect | www.wtov9.com


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## flint757 (Jul 29, 2012)

I don't know why the mention of the president. I get the anti-war part (albeit in bad taste), but connecting Obama is quite superficial since many have died while Bush was president as well and they are basically the same war.

Despite there supposed intention they clearly are trying to connect negative messages to Obama and again just poor taste in the first place.


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## The Beard (Jul 31, 2012)

Anyone else hearing all this bullshit going around about the guy that appeared in court not really being James Holmes? 







There's no way this is true, but what a hell of a twist that would be if the cops have the wrong guy in custody


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## Jakke (Jul 31, 2012)

^What a tool that made that. Has anyone noticed that when someone proposes some paranoid conspiracy bullshit they go crazy with the leading questions?

I'm surprised the hard hitting investigation skills that lead this person to the conclusion of the impostor didn't make him/her realize that Holmes is smiling on one photo and has his head in a different position on the other. 
This is like claiming the man in norwegian court is not Breivik (the Norway shooter) because he does not have his home-made uniform on in court, or because he has cultivated a small and terribly ugly beard.


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## Fiction (Jul 31, 2012)

You can even see his ears are different to each other in the middle photo, some people are really stupid when it comes to conspiracy theories.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 31, 2012)

Yeah, a nose always broadens when a person smiles. Some conspiracies are rooted in a hint of truth.
This one is rooted in a bull's shit.


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## Jakke (Jul 31, 2012)

I have noticed that... Most modern conspiracies seems to be rooted in one, extremely wrongful assumption. And when that assumption is corrected, the correcter is part of the plot


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## The Atomic Ass (Aug 4, 2012)

right_to_rage said:


> The amount of political slagging propaganda pouring forth from this whole thing, and other monstrosities like this is abhorring to me. The mainstream media and political bodies today are like piranhas looking for fresh blood in the water; these events are then strategically used to gain control over the popular opinion. 1984 is a good book to refer to when exploring the implications of obtaining and controlling a hive mind through media and fear propaganda. I'd like to think that most people are aware of how to form their own objective opinions even when the heard travels one way...


Would you look at that... First person with a brain in this thread, and it's only the 3rd page.


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## The Atomic Ass (Aug 4, 2012)

bob123 said:


> It appears he may have some semblance of a soul after all.


Watch the video. He doesn't appear regretful, he appears drugged.


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## Jakke (Aug 4, 2012)

The Atomic Ass said:


> Would you look at that... First person with a brain in this thread, and it's only the 3rd page.



Ah, I would be thrilled to know how you quantify "having a brain". Apart from it being an enormous insult to everyone that has posted in this thread, it seems like the only measure of intelligence to you is the ability to point out that politicians are scavenging jackals who will use whatever tragedy to suit their own agenda. Yeah, and also be contrarian to "the herd". (Which is also an insult when you think about it, as I am sure you have placed most of us in the herd already)
Well, no shit. They have done so for at least the last 500 years, even the black plague was blamed on the jews by christian leaders who saw a benefit in a "unifying enemy" for christian Europe.

As there seems to be a sentiment that 1984 in reality is a documentary, I also want to be a bit edgy. I therefore recommend we take The One Ring, put it together with the Master Wand, then sink them to the bottom of the sea. That way neither Sauron nor Lord Voldemort can get hold of their most coveted tools of oppression.



That said, I hope you found more people to agree with


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## mcleanab (Aug 4, 2012)

The Atomic Ass said:


> Would you look at that... First person with a brain in this thread, and it's only the 3rd page.



But he misspelled "herd."


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## L1ght (Aug 4, 2012)

The Atomic Ass said:


> Watch the video. He doesn't appear regretful, he appears drugged.



Here in America, we like to refer to the term, "heavily medicated for the safety of others and themselves" rather then drugged.


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## The Atomic Ass (Aug 4, 2012)

L1ght said:


> Here in America, we like to refer to the term, "heavily medicated for the safety of others and themselves" rather then drugged.


Last I heard, we don't drug them to take them into court, we give them the Anthony Hopkins treatment, i.e. strap them to a hand truck completely lucid.


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## The Atomic Ass (Aug 4, 2012)

Jakke said:


> Ah, I would be thrilled to know how you quantify "having a brain". Apart from it being an enormous insult to everyone that has posted in this thread, it seems like the only measure of intelligence to you is the ability to point out that politicians are scavenging jackals who will use whatever tragedy to suit their own agenda. Yeah, and also be contrarian to "the herd". (Which is also an insult when you think about it, as I am sure you have placed most of us in the herd already)


Hey, when I go about insulting a group of people, especially a large group of people, I do not settle for Silver, and certainly not Bronze... I go for the Gold. 

As for my criteria? Cynicism, for one. The understanding that the tool is not the perpetrator, the wielder is. That goes for guns, as well as Holmes himself.







It is because everyone sits around debating what should happen to the tool, and not the wielders of said tool, that things like this happen, and will continue to happen. Those who do not learn from history are doomed. (to repeat it)


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## Jakke (Aug 16, 2012)

PR Dummies: One Good Chiropractor Could Have Stopped the Batman Massacre


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