# I think I hate Superior Drummer now



## 3trv5u (Apr 25, 2014)

I really can't stand Superior Drummer anymore, it's basically everywhere  Doesn't matter what cool stuff I find, the drums are programmed in 90% of cases and I'm not even talking about demotapes or something: it's the LPs by well estabilished bands. I mean they sound good, it's quick, cheap and sh*t, but seriously, every damn record sounds about the same.
Thoughts?


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## Alex Kenivel (Apr 25, 2014)

Do you use it and are sick of it as well?


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## noise in my mind (Apr 25, 2014)

I like it. you can always blend it with a million other samples and libraries


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## Yo_Wattup (Apr 25, 2014)

You need to listen to more music then. Real music.


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## Dana (Apr 25, 2014)

i love it. no more dealing with drummers.

no recording drums either. what a pita


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## Blasphemer (Apr 25, 2014)

I almost feel the same way, to be honest. Once you get to know the different drums in the various Superior kits, you can hear them everywhere. For example, I had my iTunes on shuffle, and these came up in succession:





Those snares are almost identical.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 26, 2014)

I don't know how you can tell or be bothered by that honestly ^

I mean, I'm clearly ignorant to this because I think those two sound pretty normal to me. But how varied can you really make programmed drums, or real drums sound? I've never thought, damn that sounds like a sample I heard from another song, especially when it's in the middle of all the other instruments.

That and not everyone has the leisure to record drums for their music at will, so it is incredibly convenient.


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## Alex Kenivel (Apr 26, 2014)

audiophiles exist...i know one of them


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## Icecold (Apr 26, 2014)

There is a difference between Programmed and Triggered. 

That said If you were recording an album and had the option to either pay for a good drum room in a studio or use an e-kit with a Superior or EZX kit, based on your budget you will take Superior. Also, would you rather pay for a session drummer or use Superior? You only have to pay SDX once. Is the drummer in your band against the idea of practice and a detriment to your album? Same answer as before. 
You can't expect bands with no money and limited options to not use what is available to them.


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## yingmin (Apr 26, 2014)

Icecold said:


> There is a difference between Programmed and Triggered.


Not in terms of the sound. Either way you're hearing samples instead of real drums. In the same sense that there's technically a difference between triggered drums and electronic drum kit, but what you hear is the same.

I agree that it's annoying to hear sampled drums, especially with how commonplace they've become, but as others have pointed out, it's a simple solution to a very vexing problem.


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## Icecold (Apr 26, 2014)

yingmin said:


> Not in terms of the sound. Either way you're hearing samples instead of real drums. In the same sense that there's technically a difference between triggered drums and electronic drum kit, but what you hear is the same.




Technically you are hearing a real drum when it comes to SDX. Each piece of the kit has a sample for almost every hit a drummer can make. If we're talking about "Every snare I hear is the same from Metal Foundry." then yeah there is a point to be made there. Honestly, given the lack of kits for SDX I've been using the EZX's such as Metal! and Metal Machine and playing around for variance there, but that's just me.


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## BusinessMan (Apr 26, 2014)

I want it. I have yet to try it. I don't have a problem with it. If it sounds good, I'm not going to complain


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## larry (Apr 26, 2014)

technically superior uses _real drums_... and I love it. haven't even recorded with it, it's just fun to arrange the stock patterns and blast 'em through my monitors . that doesn't mean I don't appreciate actual kick-ass human drummers, which are very difficult to find and domesticate.


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## yingmin (Apr 26, 2014)

Icecold said:


> Technically you are hearing a real drum when it comes to SDX.


That's a meaningless distinction. Most if not all of the drum samplers on the market use samples recorded from real drums. If you want to say the samples in SDX are better than anything else, that's fine, but they're still samples.


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## abandonist (Apr 26, 2014)

You know what's awesome?

Acoustic drums. 

You can hit them in anger.


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## Icecold (Apr 26, 2014)

yingmin said:


> That's a meaningless distinction. Most if not all of the drum samplers on the market use samples recorded from real drums. If you want to say the samples in SDX are better than anything else, that's fine, but they're still samples.



To return to the initial statement, a Trigger is a consistent hit, samples are varied when it comes to an E-Kit. People are turning SDX into a fully triggered kit.


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## yingmin (Apr 26, 2014)

Triggers aren't consistent hits unless you're using shitty triggers or deliberately programming them to have a fixed velocity.


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## Icecold (Apr 26, 2014)

yingmin said:


> Triggers aren't consistent hits unless you're using shitty triggers or deliberately programming them to have a fixed velocity.



Which many bands do. Fixed velocity is a thing in Death Metal drums, I wouldn't exactly call that "shitty".


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## tacotiklah (Apr 26, 2014)

I love superior drummer for the simple reason that I can get semi-decent sounding drums for my recording without having to spend thousands of dollars on a drumkit, mics for it, a bigger interface with 8 XLR inputs, and spend potentially months or years trying to find a drummer that *might* be able to handle the material that I write. Granted they're more likely to write more interesting drum parts than I ever will, the fact remains that when I want some decent enough sounding drums right now, SD gives me just that. Is it obvious that it's fake drums? Of course. I don't pretend otherwise. But finding drummers is such a pain in the ass. Even if you can find a person talented enough, you still have to put up with things like flakiness, drama, and ego. No one has time for that kind of bullshit. 

As far as bigger name bands go, I'm sure that at least to SOME degree this applies to them as well. If you're under the gun to put out an album in a couple of months, it would be complete waste of time to use that time to try and find a drummer and teach them all the parts that they may or may not actually have down in time to track and get ready for everyone to track over. 
I can also see a scenario where even if they do have a good, reliable drummer there as part of the band, it may make more sense and be less expensive and less time-consuming to have the drummer program the parts into midi and use SD. Drummer might be out doing clinics halfway across the globe, or just spending down time with their family a few states over. It's easier on the budget to have them do it this way than to fly them and their kit over (have you seen what airlines do to instruments!?  ).

I'm all for people using the actual kit when/where possible, but there's a lot that goes on behind the scenes that we just don't know. In the end, it all comes down to doing what makes the most sense.


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## yingmin (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm aware that people do it, and wasn't commenting on the practice, but it's pretty tough to argue that a trigger that's incapable of sensing dynamics isn't "shitty" compared to one that can. It would be like an amp with no knobs.


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## Quantumface (Apr 26, 2014)

Itll never be as bad as hearing the ol drumkit from hell samples EVERYWHERE.


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## ZeroS1gnol (Apr 26, 2014)

Blasphemer said:


> I almost feel the same way, to be honest. Once you get to know the different drums in the various Superior kits, you can hear them everywhere. For example, I had my iTunes on shuffle, and these came up in succession:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't know about LCTR, but why do you think the PTH drums are made with superior? Triggered, sure...

If one is fed up with superior's sounds, it means one is fed up with contemporary drum sound in metal in general. The reason you hear it everywhere is not because everyone is using superior, but because heavily triggered sample driven drums is what everyone likes nowadays...in real drum mixing. Superior just does a hell of a job of emulating it.


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## Insightibanez (Apr 26, 2014)

Maybe there needs to be a program called Ez Guitarist


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## fassaction (Apr 26, 2014)

I remember when I recorded my old bands demo tracks....we spent a bunch of money on a firepod and mics, spent weeks getting the mic placement right, and then months getting 5 tracks recorded. Then on top of that, I had to spend time mixing and EQ-ing the drums to get them to sound good.....it was a total cluster.... and the end result wasnt even all that great because the drummer had a lazy right foot and the kick always seemed to be off time in spots.

And to top if all off....the drummer was an asshole. Enter in superior drummer, and I no longer have to deal with any of that shit. I can get a track laid out and all parts recorded in a day instead of fiddling with drum settings for 2 months.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 26, 2014)

Insightibanez said:


> Maybe there needs to be a program called Ez Guitarist



Ask Lucas Mann ab that


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 26, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> Ask Lucas Mann ab that



10/10


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## Krucifixtion (Apr 26, 2014)

It goes deeper than just Superior Drummer and drum samples though. It's hard for bands to afford paying for an awesome studio with a sick sounding drum room and spend the time actually getting it all right and having an engineer who really knows what he is doing edit and mix. 

So, you have tons of bands who do a lot of the recording process on their own now. I can hear that too in a lot of albums and not just the fact of whether or not there are drum samples or not. 

Depending on how well you can program or if you have a real drummer playing and then triggering later on will dictate how realistic it is considering most metal music is going to be triggered drums. Unless they have a sick drummer with an awesome studio and time. 

It only annoys me when they don't edit the samples enough and they sound too stock and obvious.


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## JohnIce (Apr 26, 2014)

I think SD2.0 is just a small part of a bigger problem, which is a lack of ambition to innovate among metal bands today. Home-studio bands that just want their stuff to sound as close as possible to the big dogs. Of course it's all gonna sound samey. I think part of it is they just want to fool people into believing they're more pro than they are, so they try to conform to that standard at all costs. At the expense of a refreshing new sound that they could've had instead.

I know a lot of musicians outside of metal and they'll go into a recording session saying "we want this song to feel like this" and that's it, whereas a metal band will go in and say "we want the entire record to sound exactly like this record from 4 months ago! Can you get us the exact same everything please?".


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## Nats (Apr 26, 2014)

In my old band we would record our songs and then our guitarist/producer, who is really into the whole mechanical sounding album sound trend going on today, would mix in Superior samples. Completely killed the vibe of the song. I told him that and he dialed back the wet mix a bit but it was still terrible.


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## drmosh (Apr 26, 2014)

Icecold said:


> Which many bands do. Fixed velocity is a thing in Death Metal drums, I wouldn't exactly call that "shitty".



it is? Maybe for bassdrum, but it still sounds bad imo


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## Señor Voorhees (Apr 26, 2014)

SD isn't the problem. It's unimaginative ass hats. Seriously, with the default kit alone you can get a ton of mixed snare sounds. People sticking to what everyone else is doing doesn't help. Metal Foundry and the like aren't the only option for metal. For instance, my drummer and I have been really digging the kick samples from the Roots library. The snares too, but they're a little too ringy so we mix them with stuff from the avatar kit. (We're currently layering the dampened avatar snare with the roots snare.)

On top of that, mixing mics, pre and post eq, etc all help shape unique sounds.


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## bandinaboy (Apr 26, 2014)

I think what a lot of people are missing is that there is no level of professionalism where the use of Superior drummer cuts off. Superior drummer was meant for the average Joe, like many of us who said they cant afford the time or the money. 

But what about the people that can afford the time and money in a studio? Well there is still a chance they will use superior drummer or even trigger superior drummer sounds. If we are hearing an album from a quality recording engineer and studio, I don't want to hear superior drummer. That is cheap! I want to hear the real drummer of a good band. 
If I'm listening to an album from a band or artist that's my friend or someone from here or something, I'm totally ok with them using superior drummer, because that's what is appropriate. Most of the time is a guitarist, or another band member who isn't the drummer that is writing the drum part anyway. But if you pay for a studio, and they don't make your real drummer play drums, I'm going to think less of that album.


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## Dana (Apr 26, 2014)

oh for cripes sake. how many of us guitar players has some completely original sound? gimme a break... i hear guitar tones that sound the same ALL THE TIME. but I'm not a retard, so i don't pick every sound apart. i just enjoy the music. What is so difficult about that? Some of you guys really need to get laid.... jesus christ.


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## Vhyle (Apr 26, 2014)

As a drummer of 17 years, and a frequent user of EZD/DFH, I will say that you can easily use the stock samples and get plenty of different sounds and dynamics with them. It's all about adjusting velocities on every note, every accent, every fill, and so on. It gets extremely tedious, but it pays off immensely in the end, when you have very human-like programmed drums. You can listen to my Algarothsyum albums and hear what I'm talking about.


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## coreysMonster (Apr 26, 2014)

I'm just waiting for my next paycheck to get Zeus Drums.

8Dio Zeus Drum - deep-sampled progressive metal rock kit


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## Blasphemer (Apr 26, 2014)

ZeroS1gnol said:


> I don't know about LCTR, but why do you think the PTH drums are made with superior? Triggered, sure...
> 
> If one is fed up with superior's sounds, it means one is fed up with contemporary drum sound in metal in general. The reason you hear it everywhere is not because everyone is using superior, but because heavily triggered sample driven drums is what everyone likes nowadays...in real drum mixing. Superior just does a hell of a job of emulating it.



I'm not saying either of those drums are programmed, but there is heavy, heavy sample blending and replacement going on in both productions. Its not necessarily a bad thing, either. I never said I wont listen to either album because of the snare sound, or that it even really takes much away from the music. It was just an observation that I've made.


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## 3trv5u (Apr 26, 2014)

Guys, one thing:
I am not talking about EPs or demos recorded at home by little bands that are just starting out and cannot simply spend XXXX$ on drum recording. Nothing wrong with this. I am also using drum mashines for recording demos and original material at home. 

What I am talking about are well known, big bands which record in professional studios and still use SD for the drums, or at least trigger the f*** out of them and then blend/replace the sounds with SD samples.


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## Rev2010 (Apr 26, 2014)

I don't know how one can hate a software that offers a tremendous amount of sound variance just because a lot of people use it. Popular things are generally popular because they are well liked by many. Superior offers plenty of different drums plus expansions, I have the old DFH Superior set, the Custom & Vintage add on, and Metal Foundry. Plus you can also use the EZX expansions. Then we can mention all the different mixing options and even included mixed kit presets, bleed and room adjustments, etc. There are just so very many different ways to dial in your own sound so what's the problem?

If people are too lazy and just use the Avatar kit with some common preset and that bothers you then blame the artist, not the tool. Superior has given us a literal gift. Before this there was crappy ass drum machines and drum brains with ONE sample being repeatedly triggered.


Rev.


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## yingmin (Apr 26, 2014)

Rev2010 said:


> Popular things are generally popular because they are well liked by many.


Popular things are popular because of the definition of the word "popular"?


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## Rev2010 (Apr 26, 2014)

yingmin said:


> Popular things are popular because of the definition of the word "popular"?



Smart ass . But not always. Sometimes things are popular because of other simple factors like lowest cost, easiest accessibility, etc.


Rev.


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## bigswifty (Apr 26, 2014)

How can one hate Superior Drummer?

It has single-handedly allowed me to produce my own music from the comfort (and non-expense) of my own home. It can be as simple or as complex as I want/need it to be. There are countless samples (multi-layered, because yes, velocities are king) and different pieces of kit to choose from. Between this and my Axe-FX, I can make sounds in my head become reality.

Across all the music I listen to which uses S2.0 and expansions, there is quite a lot of diversity.

Like Rev said above, blame the artist, not the tool.


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## -42- (Apr 26, 2014)

ZeroS1gnol said:


> If one is fed up with superior's sounds, it means one is fed up with contemporary drum sound in metal in general.


That's funny, because for the most part I am.


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## abandonist (Apr 27, 2014)

Bunch of precious snowflakes in here.


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## KFW (Apr 27, 2014)

Yeah, I'm not too picky if something sounds the same as another album, as long as the music itself is good. 

Personally for me though, I do like when albums have their own unique sound to the production. So I think that's up to the artist to make the production unique on an album, whether they trigger or not. I can appreciate it when they do, but it's not a deal breaker.


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## Zalbu (Apr 27, 2014)

The drums on Volition are definitely live. 

And of course it'll sound silly if everybody uses the stock Avatar kit without tweaking it and just keeps the velocity on the same level across the board, but SD is a really powerful tool. Simply using the Metal Machine addon and adding some reverb to it sounds a lot more natural than the stock kit. The average Joe would never be able to tell that somebody like Misha uses programmed drums. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Bge36qT8VpI#t=176


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## rokket2005 (Apr 27, 2014)

Jeez, I'd hate for any of you guys to be Drum n' Bass fans....


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## Dayn (Apr 27, 2014)

I write drums that are impossible to play, so...


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## blaaargh (Apr 27, 2014)

uhh wat
I do dig on some dnb every now and again, but thats completely irrelevant. when you listen to dnb you have a certain expectation of how its gonna sound, same as metal. only difference is dnb you expect electronics, and metal you expect instruments. apples and oranges.
I am beyond tired of every modern metal album having the same drum samples with the weak clicky bass drum and the ridiculous snares. shits been going on for almost a decade, and now kids have been growing up with that sound thinking thats what they should be aiming for... ugh.


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## Convictional (Apr 27, 2014)

I just started using EZ recently because I don't actually know how to program drums but I was getting tired of writing just layered guitars. I've had it for maybe a week now and I can already tell that using everything at a fixed velocity sounds like shit, they still don't (to me) sound as realistic as I thought they would and I'm already starting to notice other people using drum samples instead of a real kit in their recordings. Does it just go downhill from here?


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## abandonist (Apr 27, 2014)

Zalbu said:


> The average Joe would never be able to tell that somebody like Misha uses programmed drums. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Bge36qT8VpI#t=176



Well, if Misha does it, then it's surely ok. 

I see that name a lot on here and have no idea who he is. 

I'm uninterested in what other people do for their art. 

Most of you sound interchangeable.


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## Zalbu (Apr 27, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Well, if Misha does it, then it's surely ok.
> 
> I see that name a lot on here and have no idea who he is.
> 
> ...


Why would using SD not be okay if you can make it sound just the same as real drums?


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## abandonist (Apr 27, 2014)

It's not even close to the same.


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## QuantumCybin (Apr 27, 2014)

I think if the sound of the drums are bothering you so much to the point that you can't even listen to the music, you might be missing the point of music entirely. It's a means to an end for songwriting. 

Sorry but most of this just sounds like elitist snobbery lol. Superior drummer and other programs like it aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Just my two cents.


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## Icecold (Apr 27, 2014)

QuantumCybin said:


> I think if the sound of the drums are bothering you so much to the point that you can't even listen to the music, you might be missing the point of music entirely. It's a means to an end for songwriting.
> 
> Sorry but most of this just sounds like elitist snobbery lol. Superior drummer and other programs like it aren't going anywhere anytime soon. Just my two cents.



Ironic given that most of us here are into Metal which is recorded with roughly the same 3 guitar amps here and there. 

The day it becomes "cool" to bash either SDX or EZX is the day I will start handing out nightmare sessions with a death metal drummer who couldn't record to a click and watch with glee as folks realize how much of an absolute pain in the ass it is to pocket real drums and edit with a deadline.


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## AxeHappy (Apr 27, 2014)

I believe they are referring to one of the guitarists from Periphery. 

I am not personally a fan of his production style but it does do what he does well.

Superior drummer is awesome though. A vastly useful tool.


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## Zalbu (Apr 28, 2014)

abandonist said:


> It's not even close to the same.


Ask any chump on the street if they can tell if the drums are real or not.


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## JPhoenix19 (Apr 28, 2014)

When I first tried out EZDrummer, I immediately noticed it sounded kind of familiar. I think it's because it's such a popular program and it's used on loads of demos and home recordings people make. I recognize that it's a great program, but in my opinion there are too many people who don't try to make its sounds their own- but rather it seems like they just use known presets/settings that sound like X or Y band. Because of that, I've gravitated toward NI's Studio Drummer because of it's depth of its features and the more organic sounds (at least to my ears).

I get it. I know that the music industry animal is cyclical and that true originality is scarce. Everyone influences one another and subsequent generations of musicians are invariably influenced by previous generations.

TL;DR - My personal preference is Studio Drummer over EZDrummer/Superior Drummer because they've become part of the "core modern metal/djent sound"


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 28, 2014)

^ Nail on the head, that's the "problem" if there even is one to the people that are complaining. Same with Amp Modelers, people just download presets and expect them to save their life because they don't want to put the time into making their own tones. Hardly anyone using these programs take the time to make the drums sound good at all and will just fall back on work that was pre-programmed. Like slapping a midi track into a DAW and just loading up the drum program.



Zalbu said:


> Ask any chump on the street if they can tell if the drums are real or not.



Moreover mix both drums fully into a track and have the hack A/B them both like that. Most times people have to ask to find out if a band programmed drums or not, then get upset. Looking for an issue where there isn't one and nit picking IMO.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 28, 2014)

A top notch metal producer on a big budget album will take all the recorded acoustic hits, and even he doesn't resample them, which most will do, he's going to edit, compress, multi-channel buss, recompress, and EQ so much that you'ld think it was SD anyways. I think whatever gets you there the fastest without "cheating" (i.e. you have a real drummer in the band, so make him actually play and record even if you ARE sound replacing, don't just sit down and program his parts) is fine by me.


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## JPhoenix19 (Apr 28, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> A top notch metal producer on a big budget album will take all the recorded acoustic hits, and even he doesn't resample them, which most will do, he's going to edit, compress, multi-channel buss, recompress, and EQ so much that you'ld think it was SD anyways. I think whatever gets you there the fastest without "cheating" (i.e. you have a real drummer in the band, so make him actually play and record even if you ARE sound replacing, don't just sit down and program his parts) is fine by me.



Definitely. I understand the mentality here, but it also has the byproduct of propagating a "cookie-cutter" sound. It's not FXpansion's fault, though, they're just making a product which they believe will sell (and obviously it does). I know that even in the "big time" there's a tendency to go for a pre-fab sound, but EZDrummer and programs like it make that easier to achieve for Joe Schmoe with a low budget.

I personally just wanted the ability to strip it down as close to a "dry" recording of a drum set as possible. That way, I can tweak it myself and try to make it sound how I want, but if I choose to send it off to have it mixed/mastered I can strip all that post-processing away and let my good friend tweak it from scratch, so he has a good starting point.


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## fps (Apr 28, 2014)

It's only familiarity with the programme and a now-unoriginal lay-out and mix of the drums which results in this. My band just did a new demo of a song using SD. We're a real band, it was just easier to do it this way for a demo at home. I find it incredibly useful and you can get some banging rock sounds. No-one uninvolved in music production would listen to well-mixed SD tracks and then "real" drums (usually triggered and altered out the wazoo) and have their enjoyment of the former track spoiled by the SD.


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## abandonist (Apr 28, 2014)

Zalbu said:


> Ask any chump on the street if they can tell if the drums are real or not.



I'm not interested in chumps. 

I do this for me alone.


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## guitarfishbay (Apr 29, 2014)

If I have any problem with sample replacement it is this -

I know some (mostly lower cost local) producers have no intention of using real drum shells from the start, but they never tell the drummer. Instead they close mic everything, try to get a decent performance from the drummer, and then they tell the drummer they were great even if they weren't. Nobody hears the finished drum tracks until the producer has converted to midi, edited it, and sample replaced with some awesome sounding samples.

Drummer gets told they did well, the band's song has pro sounding drum tracks, producer gets paid, everyone is happy. Stuff can get done much faster than if you spent hours getting sounds right or making the drummer do a re-take for every time they weren't hitting the drums evenly enough. This means the producer can charge the band less, which works in both parties' favour as they can record more stuff more quickly too.

However, the problem is that the drummer thinks that this sampled/edited performance was them, and subsequently thinks that drum mics take minutes to set up, that they're really good at tuning drums, and that they can record really complex stuff in only a few takes and 'nail it'.

It is stupid. Someone needs to actually explain to bands (not just the drummers) that you just cannot get pro results doing things purely the acoustic way if you don't put the time and money in to it. And the practice time.

I might be blowing this out of proportion, but I have experience working with this kind of drummer and it can be hard to tell them 'they aren't that good' while keeping them on side to continue working as a band because 'serious' drummers can be hard to come by for certain genres... drummers can be good enough to play live but studio work is a different and potentially very expensive animal by comparison. Samples/triggering can help level the playing field a lot in this respect and since it is so mainstream and potentially so significantly cheaper it is easy to see why it happens.


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## Deadfall (Apr 29, 2014)

Its a useful tool for writing in my opinion. I personally love the program. But when the writing is over and its time to record, I would certainly rather have a human. I've spent the last few months working with Atma Anur on my project. The input he's provided has been essential. Singular vision is great and all, but allowing other musicians to help with arrangements, time sigs, hell sounds. THAT is what music is about. Small army of you cats on here using the axe fx. I consider it a brilliant tool as well (for writing in a low noise situation). But Ill stick with my mark....


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## JohnIce (Apr 29, 2014)

Icecold said:


> Ironic given that most of us here are into Metal which is recorded with roughly the same 3 guitar amps here and there.
> 
> The day it becomes "cool" to bash either SDX or EZX is the day I will start handing out nightmare sessions with a death metal drummer who couldn't record to a click and watch with glee as folks realize how much of an absolute pain in the ass it is to pocket real drums and edit with a deadline.



So you'd rather see a culture of musicians who can't play? Live shows getting less common because people don't expect bands to be any good anyhow so they stop going?

Ew. I think producers and bands spend way more time 'fixing' a bands idiosyncracies rather than capturing them. I hear a lot of bands who are musically doing something interesting but it's hard to tell at first because the production is so goddamn similar to a hundred other bands that aren't.


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## fps (Apr 29, 2014)

JohnIce said:


> So you'd rather see a culture of musicians who can't play? Live shows getting less common because people don't expect bands to be any good anyhow so they stop going?
> 
> Ew. I think producers and bands spend way more time 'fixing' a bands idiosyncracies rather than capturing them. I hear a lot of bands who are musically doing something interesting but it's hard to tell at first because the production is so goddamn similar to a hundred other bands that aren't.



I think Superior Drummer tends to be used by people who don't know drummers who can play what they want, and that it's a very useful tool for this. Quantizing of people who can't play is a slightly separate issue. One worth discussing for sure, just thought I'd draw a distinction. There are plenty of uses for Superior that don't involve masking poor playing, and most bands who are worth a damn can play their stuff very well, or if they can't when they record, if they're going to get anywhere they sure can by the time they play it.

I'd agree bands that feature people who can't really play their music are kinda blotting out attention that should be going to better bands who would have more of a chance if you removed the people who were just editing themselves to hell til they fake sounding good.


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## Grindspine (Apr 29, 2014)

If you know a cool drummer, awesome. 

If you're like the rest of us, the only drummers some of us know are near-sighted, drug-crazed, adolescents with no attention span who do not know how to tune their drums.

The above ended up being the drummer of my first two bands... and I always ended up having to set up, tear down, and transport his damn drum kit since he didn't have a driver's license.

I'll take programmable drums over that any day!


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 29, 2014)

Skill level with those who use superior drummer isn't exactly black and white. It doesn't really seem like that's the main complaint in the original post. It really came off as a complaint of originality and how all of these bands sound the same. I don't happen to see how cheaper and faster is exactly a bad thing if you get the results you want. If a band can't play live, then nobody will pay to see them. If the drummer can play, but just chooses to use samples then that's great too. Our band uses samples 100%. You can swap out kits a lot easier. In mid show even, though that might piss off the sound guy. You can also trigger electronic samples or orchestral percussion. If you're upset that you sound too generic, then you're just not trying hard enough. Layering samples goes a long way.

You can be the best drummer in the world and still prefer to use SD over acoustic kits. SD says nothing about the skills of a drummer. If it sounds good, it sounds good.


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## p0ke (Apr 29, 2014)

Try listening to music instead of samples


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## JohnIce (Apr 29, 2014)

fps said:


> I think Superior Drummer tends to be used by people who don't know drummers who can play what they want, and that it's a very useful tool for this. Quantizing of people who can't play is a slightly separate issue. One worth discussing for sure, just thought I'd draw a distinction. There are plenty of uses for Superior that don't involve masking poor playing, and most bands who are worth a damn can play their stuff very well, or if they can't when they record, if they're going to get anywhere they sure can by the time they play it.
> 
> I'd agree bands that feature people who can't really play their music are kinda blotting out attention that should be going to better bands who would have more of a chance if you removed the people who were just editing themselves to hell til they fake sounding good.



I agree, but the post I was responding to was in fact bringing up that discussion.  I'm disheartened when I see a band live hat has a ton of character and interesting ideas, and then I listen to their album and all of that character was edited out. Either because of a lazy engineer or because the band didn't want to risk it.

I bet a lot of legendary rock singers would've had a completely different voice if they could. Fortunately, they couldn't. However, for drummers this is in fact possible, and as "practical" as that is it can be a real personality killer too.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2014)

I mean, shit man, thats why you can actually hear a little slag here or there on our last EP/demo we did. Sometimes when you're blasting away for 60 seconds you might adjust the feel a little, so why try and make it sound like you're a robot.

I did sample replacement for a drummer recently (no money to record the kit properly) and I spent a good week or two on 5 songs going through and trying to mimic his velocities and style as much as possible so that what came out of Superior sounded like a really well-captured e-kit performance. Of course the engineer who did the mix/master and recorded the vocals and guitars just jammed the velocity up to 127 on everything on the MIDI files....but that's a different story! The only reason it has to sound the same is because mix engineers have requests from bands to sound exactly like so and so...

someday people will want to be original again. Just check out Peculate!


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## Vhyle (Apr 29, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> I mean, shit man, thats why you can actually hear a little slag here or there on our last EP/demo we did. Sometimes when you're blasting away for 60 seconds you might adjust the feel a little, so why try and make it sound like you're a robot.
> 
> I did sample replacement for a drummer recently (no money to record the kit properly) and I spent a good week or two on 5 songs going through and trying to mimic his velocities and style as much as possible so that what came out of Superior sounded like a really well-captured e-kit performance. Of course the engineer who did the mix/master and recorded the vocals and guitars just jammed the velocity up to 127 on everything on the MIDI files....but that's a different story! The only reason it has to sound the same is because mix engineers have requests from bands to sound exactly like so and so...
> 
> someday people will want to be original again. Just check out Peculate!


 
That's how I program my drums. As I mentioned before, I've been playing for 17 years, so I program my drums to mimic my style. I spend quite a bit of time adjusting velocities on almost every single note, to humanize everything. On blast beats, I reduce average velocity all the way across, because obviously you won't play at the same strength as you would during a groove (unless you're George Kollias).

Also, what I do is that I will intentionally make oddball note intervals with some drum fills, to add a slight amount of "slop" to them. I'll program something like 23rd notes (you can input any note fraction you want in Reaper), so they don't fit on a normal grid. It adds a very realistic human element, especially if you're adding jazz-influenced drumming.

There are many, many ways to make programmed drums sound ridiculously realistic. It's not that hard - just very tedious. About an hour into programming, I'm typically like "WHY THE FUK AM I DOING THIS", but the end result is always great.

Come to think of it, I made a huge tutorial thread about programming convincing drum tracks over on the Home Recording, and it was a pretty good success.


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## Mr Violence (Apr 29, 2014)

I have to address 2 things here.

Firstly, SD is becoming very saturated in the market, but I also feel as though it's perceived that way for a couple reasons.

1.) It's a phenomenal tool to get real drum sounds without the hassle of miccing a set, having a drummer play it, and then spending hours drum editing depending on the proficiency of the drummer.

2.) I think many people use it for metal, and setting the Misha standard, people go for that kind of mix. I get it, and it works, but it also makes a lot of mixes sound very, very similar.

I'd love to hear a different style of music utilize the dynamics of SD2.0. I think it would be great in a groovy rock band, ska band, reggae, country, whatever you feel. Anything without the velocity completely jacked for all the hits, and I bet you'd find a whole new set of dynamics from SD.

There's a reason I've been getting into bands like QOTSA, Open Hand, Black Keys, Them Crooked Vultures, etc., lately. Great mixes with imperfections. And I think imperfection and nuance is lost in this new age of digital everything.

It's a great, great tool. But many people are only using it one way. We gotta branch out and do more out of the box stuff.



Now for the unpleasant other topic that I can't shut up about anymore.



abandonist said:


> Bunch of precious snowflakes in here.





abandonist said:


> Well, if Misha does it, then it's surely ok.
> 
> I see that name a lot on here and have no idea who he is.
> 
> ...





abandonist said:


> I'm not interested in chumps.
> 
> I do this for me alone.



I'm prepared for the derail and personal attack banhammer for this. It will be my first.


It's not in my nature to call people out or call names but, honestly, are you going for the biggest prick on earth award? Why are you even here? Every time you post, you make the post about you and your opinions, sh_i_t on everyone else's opinions, and profess how you are your own person and nothing anyone else says affects you. 

But here you f_u_cking are, acting like a g_o_ddamned asshole. You sh_i_t on the majority of the culture here unapologetically. And I'm not taking issue with your opinions on music, even though I think almost all of your opinions are awful. You're simply just a confrontational prick for the sake of being a confrontational prick. You are in love with screaming, "I'M DIFFERENT AND YOU'RE ALL THE SAME," from the rooftops. You act like an adolescent that has everything figured out and everyone else is dumb. You think you have the best opinions and consistently look down on everyone and vocalize it without ANY provocation. And you'd claim to be a narcissist or a sociopath for attention, but you're not. People who have disorders like that aren't proud to profess them. You're just trying to come off as such. Instead, you're just a prick that likes attention. Most kids abandon this position when they grow the f_u_ck up and realize they have so much to learn and so many people around that are willing to help. 

This is a great forum for discussion and discourse about gear, software, music, etc. I feel as though it's one forum that's been completely down to earth without any power hungry mods. Many people here actually give a shit and will be honest and straight with you. Many people are here to help and to debate fairly.

You're just here to be an asshole. I'd appreciate it if you went the f_u_ck away.


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## Vhyle (Apr 29, 2014)




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## GunpointMetal (Apr 29, 2014)

Mr Violence said:


> I have to address 2 things here.
> 
> Firstly, SD is becoming very saturated in the market, but I also feel as though it's perceived that way for a couple reasons.
> 
> ...




Pretty sure he just got exactly what he wanted out of you!


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## illimmigrant (Apr 29, 2014)

I think you have to realize that 90% of music listenenrs can't tell what programmed drums sound like. For God's sakes, my wife will ask if drums on a Lady Gaga song are real or not.
Software like Superior has offered a budget alternative with a plethora of great sounds tracked in studios not many artists can afford with a collection of drums no one has. Anyone who is into small studio, or home recording and hates superior or similar software, have you tried mic'ing and recording drums yourslef? I bet you'd be back to superior in no time. Studio rates will charge you an arm and a leg to book a drum room, use thousands of dollars worth of mic's and route through a Neve console. When you're starting out, and this could be years, it makes sense to go the software route. 
On the sample note, most studios sample their own drum kits. They don't blend in superior samples. And the similar sounding stuff is the result of artists and producers aiming for the same thing: Consistency, punch, and volume.
If I were to go to a studio right now to get a quote on tracking real drums through a Neve console, guitars and bass in instrument rooms with who knows how many amps and then compared that to the quote I would get by using and e-kit with superior drummer through slate VCC and guitars through an Axe fxII instead... I'd go the digital route!
It's easy to critique the way people do things without necessarily being in their situation.


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## fps (Apr 29, 2014)

JohnIce said:


> I agree, but the post I was responding to was in fact bringing up that discussion.  I'm disheartened when I see a band live hat has a ton of character and interesting ideas, and then I listen to their album and all of that character was edited out. Either because of a lazy engineer or because the band didn't want to risk it.
> 
> I bet a lot of legendary rock singers would've had a completely different voice if they could. Fortunately, they couldn't. However, for drummers this is in fact possible, and as "practical" as that is it can be a real personality killer too.



I agree. My go-to example is Crowbar's Sever The Wicker Hand. It almost didn't sound like a Crowbar record, the drums were so plastic and quantized. Production plays such a large part in a band's sound, and I think this forum alone tells us that many people see production as falling purely into "good" and "bad" without questioning the received wisdom on what qualities comprise said "good" production. 

Drummers it's the same, I love hearing certain drummers playing their kits, J-P Gaster and Jimmy Bower being two. Their sound is there own. Flo Mounier another, to take a death metal example. But there are so many bands who, as you say, have personalities which are stifled by their recorded mixes. Perhaps that's why I've enjoyed moving into stoner and sludge so much, the sound is real, earth-shattering, and alive.


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## Splinterhead (Apr 29, 2014)

Drumming is an art that is kind of being taken for granted. When years of practice in technique, groove and feel is consolidated into dragging and dropping midi notes, musicians are going to notice. Most guitar players just want to lay down any old drum groove and put their stuff on top of it and leave it at that. Is there anything wrong with that? Art is art so this is where subjectivity comes in. 

Toontrak makes a great product. But think of it this way. If all of us recorded with the same guitars, amps and effects all the music we produce would sound homogenized. I think this is what's happening with drum tracks. Perhaps a little variation is in order. Maybe studying different drummers and investing time in learning to program in real time may help.


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## fps (Apr 29, 2014)

Splinterhead said:


> Toontrak makes a great product. But think of it this way. If all of us recorded with the same guitars, amps and effects all the music we produce would sound homogenized. I think this is what's happening with drum tracks. Perhaps a little variation is in order. Maybe studying different drummers and investing time in learning to program in real time may help.



The fact that a lot of people have no idea how to programme drums that sound like the work of an interesting drummer is definitely a major contributor here.


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## ZXIIIT (Apr 29, 2014)

I really can't stand EMG anymore, it's basically everywhere Doesn't matter what cool stuff I find, the pickups are active in 90% of cases and I'm not even talking about demotapes or something: it's the gear by well estabilished bands. I mean they sound good, it's quick, cheap and sh*t, but seriously, every damn guitar sounds about the same.
Thoughts?

jk,


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## -42- (Apr 29, 2014)

Zombie13 said:


> I really can't stand EMG anymore, it's basically everywhere Doesn't matter what cool stuff I find, the pickups are active in 90% of cases and I'm not even talking about demotapes or something: it's the gear by well estabilished bands. I mean they sound good, it's quick, cheap and sh*t, but seriously, every damn guitar sounds about the same.
> Thoughts?
> 
> jk,


If that was the OP a lot more people here would be agreeing with it.


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## Enselmis (Apr 29, 2014)

I use it in a ska context and it works out just fine.


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## CTID (Apr 29, 2014)

My band is in the process of recording an EP and we programmed drums. We have an incredible drummer too, actually. He's completely capable of recording pretty much flawlessly, but it's a lot easier/cost-effective for us to have him sit with me and show me what he plays while I program it into MIDI. Then we set up and EQ the drums to his liking, and I set the velocities to be like how he plays. Everyone wins.


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## Rev2010 (Apr 29, 2014)

Mr Violence said:


> Every time you post, you make the post about you and your opinions, sh_i_t on everyone else's opinions, and profess how you are your own person and nothing anyone else says affects you.





Mr Violence said:


> You are in love with screaming, "I'M DIFFERENT AND YOU'RE ALL THE SAME," from the rooftops. You act like an adolescent that has everything figured out and everyone else is dumb.





Mr Violence said:


> Most kids abandon this position when they grow the f_u_ck up and realize they have so much to learn and so many people around that are willing to help.





Mr Violence said:


> You're just here to be an asshole. I'd appreciate it if you went the f_u_ck away.


















Rev.


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## JohnIce (Apr 29, 2014)

fps said:


> I agree. My go-to example is Crowbar's Sever The Wicker Hand. It almost didn't sound like a Crowbar record, the drums were so plastic and quantized. Production plays such a large part in a band's sound, and I think this forum alone tells us that many people see production as falling purely into "good" and "bad" without questioning the received wisdom on what qualities comprise said "good" production.
> 
> Drummers it's the same, I love hearing certain drummers playing their kits, J-P Gaster and Jimmy Bower being two. Their sound is there own. Flo Mounier another, to take a death metal example. But there are so many bands who, as you say, have personalities which are stifled by their recorded mixes. Perhaps that's why I've enjoyed moving into stoner and sludge so much, the sound is real, earth-shattering, and alive.



Hallelujah, brother!

As a studio nerd I've been as guilty of this as anyone else sadly, but I noticed it took the fun out of it. Like using cheat codes in a game to get immortality and unlimited ammo, all of a sudden you realize it's no fun to just win all the time  Playing guitar became less enjoyable once I learned how to "fix it in the mix". And my drummer sounded less interesting when I quantized and velocity-limited all his drums. It sure sounded more "industry standard" which is ironic because a) You're compromising your art just to be more commercially safe while b) The audience finds you _less_ interesting because you sound like everyone else. 

Ah well. This is why I like going to shows. The WYSIWYG of it all  It's a shame if the band sucks, but if the band kicks ass there's nothing getting in the way of it


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## abandonist (Apr 30, 2014)

Mr Violence said:


> I'm prepared for the derail and personal attack banhammer for this. It will be my first.
> 
> 
> It's not in my nature to call people out or call names but, honestly, are you going for the biggest prick on earth award? Why are you even here? Every time you post, you make the post about you and your opinions, sh_i_t on everyone else's opinions, and profess how you are your own person and nothing anyone else says affects you.
> ...



Tell me more about me. 

You're free to put me on ignore if I offend you.


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## Veldar (Apr 30, 2014)

I think SD is fine for 40+ guitar overdub metal bands but most of the time I want some a little rawer, just a band with everything mic'd up and picking the best out of 10 different playthroughs.

But that's just personal preference.


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## tedtan (Apr 30, 2014)

Vhyle said:


> Come to think of it, I made a huge tutorial thread about programming convincing drum tracks over on the Home Recording, and it was a pretty good success.



And yet you don't copy it here or post a link.


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## jimwratt (Apr 30, 2014)

I think we should be very clear about our opinions on what constitutes "cheating" in music because its such a slippery slope. In progressive genres where technical ability is prized as highly if not higher than composition, sound, etc., its awfully tempting to be puritanical about what is "real" as opposed to fake. However, in looking at the current applications of music technology, we must take note that amp modelers and IR can be considered cheating since you don't have to mic up a cab in a room. Any use of effects and processing can be considered cheating because it involves improving sound after the fact. Multi-track recording is cheating because you don't sound like that when you're playing alone. Amplifiers are cheating because you aren't that loud. Pickups are cheating because they color your instrument's sound. Instruments are cheating because you didn't build them. Luthiers are cheating because they didn't make their tools. Toolmakers are cheating because they didn't build the distribution and transportation infrastructures they profit from. 

We often think of popular genres like rap and pop as being corrupted by rampant cheating with almost all non-vocal sounds being generated by synths. We think the "cheating" has led to a decline in artistry that has dumbed the music down beyond reform. However, even those genres have cheating standards. I'm sure people would be PISSED at Lil' Wayne if he typed his rhymes into his iPhone and had Siri recite them. That apparently is what some among us think SD basically is. I think we all respect great drummers immensely, but the logistical challenges that come along with recording a set of acoustic drums are what produced the current state of affairs. I think people are frustrated at how similar drum sounds are on recordings in prog genres, but they should note that most of those records sound similar in general, at least at the quantitative level (frequency content, production techniques, etc.). It's really not fair to single the drums out. The question to ask is if the recorded sound accurately represents the drummer's skills. If they are using SD to get around their recording skills or capabilities, then I think we're pretty permissive. If they're using SD like certain guitar players use Guitar Pro, then what we are talking about is honesty more so than artistry. 

Most bands have drummers and the drum parts of their albums tend to reflect the style and abilities of said drummers. If we start seeing acts without drummers or who have them as window dressing, _then_ I think we can have a more sensible conversation about "cheating." It was inevitable that drums would eventually go electric (as opposed to electronic) in rock music given that every other instrument has. Things will likely improve sound-wise and I would hope that drummers would start making their own trigger samples so that their skills can be more accurately represented.


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## Vhyle (Apr 30, 2014)

tedtan said:


> And yet you don't copy it here or post a link.



LOL, well the thread eventually got buried into the vast emptiness of the interwebs, and I had to make room on my Soundcloud so I took the files off.

However, I could always do it again!


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## Defi (May 1, 2014)

I use it because I have to. I would love a real drummer. Hell maybe I'll just buy a kit and start learning


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## tedtan (May 1, 2014)

Vhyle said:


> LOL, well the thread eventually got buried into the vast emptiness of the interwebs, and I had to make room on my Soundcloud so I took the files off.
> 
> However, I could always do it again!



Please do. I've read a number of good threads and other resources on this, but it's always good to get more input, especially from a drummer, because things like velocity and timing can really make a groove.


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## Necris (May 1, 2014)

illimmigrant said:


> yone who is into small studio, or home recording and hates superior or similar software, have you tried mic'ing and recording drums yourslef?


I have mic'd drums before, and I enjoyed it. To my ear, despite being time consuming, it sounded better. However the "price of admission" for real drum recordings is steep, thousands or more. So superior connected to electronic drums will be the route I go once I improve as a drummer.

Also I don't mind superior since I can get a ton of unique sounds blending snares, kicks, hihats, etc; altering the pitch of different drums and all sorts of other things. I also make a new preset for every demo/album of every project of mine.
If you're just going back to the same preset over and over for project after project, as many people do, of course it's going to sound the same.


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## rectifryer (May 2, 2014)

Splinterhead said:


> Drumming is an art that is kind of being taken for granted. When years of practice in technique, groove and feel is consolidated into dragging and dropping midi notes, musicians are going to notice. Most guitar players just want to lay down any old drum groove and put their stuff on top of it and leave it at that. Is there anything wrong with that? Art is art so this is where subjectivity comes in.
> 
> Toontrak makes a great product. But think of it this way. If all of us recorded with the same guitars, amps and effects all the music we produce would sound homogenized. I think this is what's happening with drum tracks. Perhaps a little variation is in order. Maybe studying different drummers and investing time in learning to program in real time may help.



I litterally started taking drum lessons when I started writing drums with samples because of this reason. You can definitely get a live feel from a sampled drumsets but it becomes a huge headache when compared to a drummer that can just play a part with a slight asymetrical swing to show the tension in a part you are trying to convey. 

There are pluses and minuses. Nothing really beats the combination of both a real drummer and samples.


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## Rap Hat (May 2, 2014)

I think Superior is a godsend and can produce way more variance than what's generally done in the bedroom djent scene. Thing is, you kinda need to be a drummer (or at least know a bit about drums) to create those unique rhythms and tones. Things like how and where to use the room mikes, when bleed is benificial, sidechaining the kick and snare, grouping to create individual "space" for the various drums, etc. 
While there's a huge time trade off when it comes to programming vs. playing, it's more than made up by the crazy amount of options SD has. Most people don't have tuned drum rooms with dozens of high end mikes running into SSL boards. I have a pretty basic drum-recording setup, and even though I'm happy with the tones I can get it's not always ideal for the music. Sometimes the most fitting snare will be something I don't have, or I'll need the cymbals to cut but bleed is ruining it.

I don't think of it as cheating, because it's just another way of making sounds. Whether or not I can actually play the part is irrelevant, because it's a recording.
Yeah, from my perspective as a drummer I can see why some people think it's cheating; I've spent years practicing to do certain things that any kid can now program in 20 seconds. But that doesn't cheapen what I do... quite the opposite! If that kid wants to play live, he'll need a drummer that can do it. Now the time I spent bashing on heads is coming in handy!


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## ZeroS1gnol (May 2, 2014)

Wow, this thread got out of hand quick. OP raised issues with the sound of SD and how a lot sounds like it, also with trigger blending in real drums. Now I read about justification of programming drums in general (and that thing between Mr Violence and abondonist...)

Just a quick observation...


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## Quantumface (May 2, 2014)

Mr Violence said:


> I have to address 2 things here.
> 
> Firstly, SD is becoming very saturated in the market, but I also feel as though it's perceived that way for a couple reasons.
> 
> ...



Heres a pop punk release I did entirely with SD.

http://amandaplease.bandcamp.com/album/big-whoop


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## Necris (May 2, 2014)

I find it amusing that people will set the velocity of every note that isn't a ghost note to 127. Why did you buy superior drummer if you aren't going to make use of the range of dynamics that the samples in it cover? 

Inevitably the next step is that same person posting a thread asking "How can I make my programmed drums sound more natural?" Seriously? 

Superior is an amazing tool, but you still need to put some effort in to using it. If that means adjusting velocities by hand for a more natural sound, so be it, it's still easier than sample replacement and all of the other stuff you may need to do with a real kit.


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## Blasphemer (May 2, 2014)

^Seriously. While those videos Bulb made about SD programming were helpful in some ways, it really put me off that 90% of his velocities were at 127. I cant think of any drummers who hit as hard as they can with every single stroke. It takes a lot of the realism out, for me.


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## Vhyle (May 3, 2014)

Blasphemer said:


> ^Seriously. While those videos Bulb made about SD programming were helpful in some ways, it really put me off that 90% of his velocities were at 127. I cant think of any drummers who hit as hard as they can with every single stroke. It takes a lot of the realism out, for me.



Yeah, that's insane. 127 across the board is highly unrealistic.

When I program my drums, default velocity is 98. I prefer to keep it that way. It's more realistic, and it gives me plenty of head room for harder strokes during fills, downtempo sections, etc. I tend to ramp the velocity up gradually through a long drum fill because honestly (at least for me), that's natural human tendency, especially during a part of a song that induces quite a bit of adrenaline. When I program drums, I factor in ALL of these areas of playing, that most programmers who don't play drums don't really think about. They are all subtle changes, but they make a HUGE impact.

Drums don't need to be at 127 at all times. That's highly unrealistic to my eyes.

EDIT: This really makes me want to make my tutorial thread. No disrespect to Misha at all, but I feel like all these little tricks I've learned a long the way would greatly benefit a lot of players here. Drum programming is extremely common nowadays, for obvious reasons, and I'd love to help the best I can with what I've learned.


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## Blasphemer (May 3, 2014)

I usually roll with 105-ish for a standard hit, and my results are at least fairly realistic. Here's the most recent thing I've been working on; A black metal collaboration between myself and another one man BM artist. I've been editing and humanizing SD a lot in the last month or so.
(Warning: Long, boring, repetitive content. Also, I hate, hate, hate the sound of that kick, so don't be too put off by it)


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## JohnIce (May 3, 2014)

Vhyle said:


> Yeah, that's insane. 127 across the board is highly unrealistic.
> 
> When I program my drums, default velocity is 98. I prefer to keep it that way. It's more realistic, and it gives me plenty of head room for harder strokes during fills, downtempo sections, etc. I tend to ramp the velocity up gradually through a long drum fill because honestly (at least for me), that's natural human tendency, especially during a part of a song that induces quite a bit of adrenaline. When I program drums, I factor in ALL of these areas of playing, that most programmers who don't play drums don't really think about. They are all subtle changes, but they make a HUGE impact.
> 
> Drums don't need to be at 127 at all times. That's highly unrealistic to my eyes.



Sure it's unrealistic, but there's stylistic taste involved too. Case in point: Opeth still use Mellotrons, which were invented in the 60's to sound like orchestral instruments, but clearly don't. If Opeth wanted "realistic" strings, they wouldn't use Mellotrons. Yet they do, because real strings don't sound like a Mellotron. 

If you want your drums to have 127 velocity in a live setting, you can do that easily using triggers. So what's realistic or not becomes a non-issue at that point.

It's not my type of drum sound at all, I'm just saying that realism doesn't need to be a factor when selecting sounds. It's art, after all.


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## Vhyle (May 3, 2014)

^ I understand that. If you're into full on velocity all the time, then 127 across the board is good for you. Me personally, I don't want that. That's not nearly as artful to me, compared to programming that displays lots of dynamics.

During clean parts on my songs, I'll have drum strokes as low as 25-30 on velocity. Light tap on the snares, cymbals, gentle crashes. It's gotta fit the moment. That's my take on it, that's all.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (May 4, 2014)

I hate guitars now. They are in like....every song.


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## Captain Butterscotch (May 4, 2014)

If I hear another metal record with a 5150 variation, I swear to God I'm gonna complain about it on the internet.


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## pushpull7 (May 5, 2014)

Is this a bad time to mention I'll be getting ezdrummer 2 the day it comes out?


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## -42- (May 5, 2014)

I just remember when a load of people on this forum had a veritable fit when it came out that HAARP Machine and Rings of Saturn were actually using half speed recording or when that one djent EP comprised entirely of programmed guitars dropped. I'd say that it's pretty demonstrative of the guitarist's mentality (or maybe just the power of the status quo) that most people on this forum are totally okay with both listening to - and writing with - programmed drums. 

Here's my take. I totally concede that programmed drums are a valid tool that can conceivably be used in lieu of a real drummer if they are well arranged and produced. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the time they sound inorganic and dry, or they have that super loud all-velocities-at-max-all-time boominess that really grinds my gears. Sure, you can run into those problems with 'real' drums too, especially if the band is going for a heavily processed volume wars sound, but those problems aren't nigh-universal the way they are with programmed drums. I'd say it's pretty telling (perhaps of just my taste) that none of my favorite albums last year used programmed drums (admittedly, there were one or two with heavy triggering). Try this, put on your favorite album that came out in the 90s, assuming it isn't dance music/hi-hop/RnB then odds are the drums on it are completely analog. Now ask yourself if - using your favorite drum machine - with a comprehensive suite of high quality drum samples and complete control of hit placement and velocity, could you emulate (or even surpass) the original drum takes? My money is on no.


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## Narrillnezzurh (May 5, 2014)

-42- said:


> in lieu of a real drummer



This mentality is the problem. Why is emulating a real drummer _necessarily_ the goal?


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## rectifryer (May 5, 2014)

-42- said:


> could you emulate (or even surpass) the original drum takes? My money is on no.



Ofcourse not. They are samples of real drums, after all. A real drum is the best it could sound like. The same could be said for the AxeFX and anything else that claims to be as good as a tube amp. Even a kemper profiler only profiles the amp it specific states and settings. 

But I don't think we are talking about optimum setups here, more like widely accepted setups. I, too, long for the time when production was always from the ground up. Guitar/bass/drum/vocal tones were just as much a part of the band as were the songs. We don't have that anymore. I think that is what OP is getting at. We have entire genres built around very specific setups.


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## rectifryer (May 5, 2014)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> This mentality is the problem. Why is emulating a real drummer _necessarily_ the goal?



Well that is the intended purpose of Superior Drummer, which is what the thread is about.  I catch your drift though. Your perspective is not the same as the bands who just load a standard preset with no modulation of intensity then release the album. They think that you think it sounds real.


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## BuckarooBanzai (May 5, 2014)

-42- said:


> I just remember when a load of people on this forum had a veritable fit when it came out that HAARP Machine and Rings of Saturn were actually using half speed recording or when that one djent EP comprised entirely of programmed guitars dropped. I'd say that it's pretty demonstrative of the guitarist's mentality (or maybe just the power of the status quo) that most people on this forum are totally okay with both listening to - and writing with - programmed drums.
> 
> Here's my take. I totally concede that programmed drums are a valid tool that can conceivably be used in lieu of a real drummer if they are well arranged and produced. That doesn't change the fact that the vast majority of the time they sound inorganic and dry, or they have that super loud all-velocities-at-max-all-time boominess that really grinds my gears. Sure, you can run into those problems with 'real' drums too, especially if the band is going for a heavily processed volume wars sound, but those problems aren't nigh-universal the way they are with programmed drums. I'd say it's pretty telling (perhaps of just my taste) that none of my favorite albums last year used programmed drums (admittedly, there were one or two with heavy triggering). Try this, put on your favorite* album that came out in the 90s, assuming it isn't dance music/hi-hop/RnB then odds are the drums on it are completely analog*. Now ask yourself if - using your favorite drum machine - with a comprehensive suite of high quality drum samples and complete control of hit placement and velocity, could you emulate (or even surpass) the original drum takes? My money is on no.



Uhh...

How did you get Nevermind's drum sound? - Gearslutz.com

Triggering tomfoolery's been going on since the 80s.

I also take issue with all of what you're saying. It's entirely possible to do what you're describing. Unless the performance is particularly dynamic or there's serious hat work going on I'm fairly sure you can get to the point that you'd be able to lie about it convincingly to your listeners and take the secret to your grave. I didn't believe this myself until I replaced a snare that I recorded with a Superior one and kept the velocities... it blended eerily well and even the drummer had no idea until I told him that I swapped the snare  Of course after that it was one issue after another about how unnatural it sounded, how I coulda fixed it with EQ, how John Bonham didn't use replaced drums, how the Beatles only used one microphone, etc ad nauseum. I'd also like to point out that lots of percussion in 80s pop songs that you'd think was a drum machine is actually a real drum with a consistent player and some heavy compression, gating, and verb. The line is so blurred it's ridiculous.

I will conceded that convincingly _programming_ such a performance would be very difficult indeed, but still doable by a handful of people I'd say. That's just the study of how drums are actually played and arranged on the most fundamental level.


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## Alimination (May 5, 2014)

I love superior Drummer!

Last time I dealt with a drummer in the studio, we discovered the day of recording he woke up in the mountains (roughly 30 miles away from our area) without a shirt and four new unknown companions. 

Sadly it happened again a second time at a day of a performance. I wish I made this up. It was humiliating!


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## Explorer (May 7, 2014)

What an odd subject, at least from my perspective. 

I used to play synths, not just from keyboard. I still own and use my Yamaha G10 "guitar" controller (just a MIDI controller, not capable of being played acoustically), have upgraded from my WX7 to the WX5, and still have my Roland R8mkII Human Rhythm Composer, as well as using a Yamaha DTX12 to capture drumming (and a rackmount R8m because it holds a lot of the sound cards).

In addition to playing parts in live, I was never averse to using Keyfax's Twiddly Bits since (IIRC) 1993, which were MIDI phrases of pro performances. I've never been against re-amping, or editing a MIDI sequencing, or punching in to fix one bad note. 

However, I do like retaining flaws here and there. People connect when they perceive an actual performance. Even adding room noise can move people, even if they don't consciously recognize what makes the track sound more animated. 

I've heard lost of albums over the years which used MIDI sequencing, and which lacked real life. Excessive quantization takes away the life of many recordings. 

I think Vangelis (among others) talked about the importance of performing each part live, and Larry Fast/Synergy (the keyboard guy on many Peter Gabriel albums) also tracked each instrument seaparately. People not taking advantage of features which humanize performances, or which retain the human-ness of performances, are nothing new. 

I don't think this topic is about the evils of SD. 

I think the OP was talking about how there are many who don't invest the effort in using SD in any way other than the most superficial, who only go for one sound. Is that what the current metal genre demands? I don't know, but I wouldn't be shocked at this point, given the revelation in a lot of SS.org topics that people get rid of their tone knobs because they don't need more than one sound. 

It's okay to not like a genre. Think the current practitioners are boring, and don't distinguish themselves from others? That happens, and so it's probably time to move on, or... to make something which breaks that mold being lamented. 

----

Funny... I was thinking of buying SD and moving more into the modern age. I was worried that it might be too identifiable, but this topic makes me feel that it's rare for people to take advantage of the humanizing elements. 

And I'm okay with that, because it allows those who do take advantage to sound unique.


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