# Learn to play in key?



## Brett89 (Aug 28, 2007)

Hi there!

If I want to, you know just jam in myself, or with my friends, when I try to improvise, I can play "any" scale, but only in one position. 

What I would like to do, is, you know, if I sit down and I say "I will play some random riffs in G major." then I start to play anything from simple metal riffs from chords to solos in ANY position in that key, from the firsts frets till the end of the neck. 

Hope you understand what I'm talking about. So I would like to get some usefull tips from you how sould I begin to learn this thing. 

I "can" do this thing with Pentatonic scales in this way:

for example: E minor Pentaton
----0--------3-------5------5----------------------
----0--------3-------5---------8--------------------
----0------2-------4--------7----------------------
----0------2---------5------7----------------------
----0------2---------5------7----------------------
----0--------3-------5------7----------------------
I II III

So, I think this tab up here is pretty useless, but maybe not. What I did is (what my teacher showed me) that I must learn the how does pentatnic scales look no the neck. Then I learned that if I put these in order, then I will know all the notes of that pentatonic scale on the neck. Hope you understand me.

So, this is a good way? Just add those few notes in these pentatonic scales and I get the major/minor scales or there is other ways? What sould I practice?

Thanks in advence!

(Sorry for my english again, correct me if I wrote something wrong or you don't understand something!)


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## Thomas (Aug 28, 2007)

I'm not sure if I understand this right. Do you want to play scales already known to you in *different* keys?

Also, you are correct, pentatonic minor *is* melodic minor (scale) minus a few notes. Same thing goes for the major scale.

What I'd suggest at this point is learning more scales, learn to play them in different keys (positions). For instance, in your example above you demonstrated minor pentatonic in the key of E. To learn it, say, G, you'd transpose the notes three frets up. The trick is to learn to see intervals (meaning the gaps between the notes) so that you know at which fret the next note in the scale lies.

Although you can make the process of learning scales and 'seeing them' on the fretboard easier, I wouldn't say there's a shortcut. In the end, you *will* have to practice.

I hope this was at least slightly helpful.


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## MetalSir (Aug 28, 2007)

ahah! hi guyZ! i'm not good with english.. ahah.. i try to undestand U.. so.. =)

i use pentatonics scale only for one thing: to focus the exact center of all the modal scales..

the rest is only experience and just knowlence of modal position.. i uses frequently to do cromatics passages just inside modal scales and between each mode.. i mind that this thing makes all more interesting..

another thing that you can do is to learn all the key signature.. i mind that you are able to find the notes on your fingerboard.. so.. if you are improvising on an "E minour" you know that you are using: C, D, E, F#, G, A, B..
this way of improvising sounds to me more creative than the modal scale.. 
i know that this way is more hard, but this is tha classical way i learned at Conservatory, in my calssical studies.. 
sometimes i use more this way than modal's sometimes not.. it dipend on the moment.. =)

ahah.. try to undestand me.. i have an orrible english!
i hope to have undestood youe question ad to have answered you correctly..



EDIT: look at this my video for undestanding my view of the scalin' up and improvising..


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## Brett89 (Aug 28, 2007)

high-eye said:


> I'm not sure if I understand this right. Do you want to play scales already known to you in *different* keys?



Thank you for your post!  

I mean, if I say I will play anything in, for example, C major, then you know, I don't need to stay in one position, if I slide my hand up to any position, on any string, I will find the notes of C major and stay in that.


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## MetalSir (Aug 28, 2007)

can i give you this..







is really clear and was the first i find o google! LOL!


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## Thomas (Aug 28, 2007)

Brett89 said:


> I mean, if I say I will play anything in, for example, C major, then you know, I don't need to stay in one position, if I slide my hand up to any position, on any string, I will find the notes of C major and stay in that.


I'm not sure I understand the problem. Do you have trouble finding out at which frets the C major notes are? That can only be achieved through practice. You should definitely familiarize yourself with the scale enough to know how it sounds (e.g. so you don't have to look sheet of paper to know which note comes next after the current).


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## BCrowell (Aug 28, 2007)

It sounds like you've learned your scale patterns and are now in dreaded pattern fixation. Meaning you can play a particular scale in one position, because you know the PATTERN, and that pattern in THAT position. Which is why I hate teaching them to begin with.

"You must UNLEARN, what you have learned" - Yoda  

Basically the pattern has become your crutch and you must break free of it. When you become reliant on them you stop using your scaler ear, and loose sight of what's important...the sounds of the notes and intervals. You must learn to HEAR the notes of a scale, HEAR & SEE the intervals on the fretboard..everywhere on the fretboard.

The lesson I've given past students is this:

Homework: Take any given favorite scale pattern you like. You'll use it for this whole exercise.

Take a note, any note, from that pattern. NOW I want you to play that note, and then FIND that SAME note elsewhere on the neck. No doubt you'll hit lots of different notes until you find them...the point is to find everyone, that sounds the same as or OCTAVE(s) of that note. Make a mental note where they are, how they sound, and even write them down. (helps the memory sink in).

NOW, take another note from the pattern, preferbly the next one in the pattern/scale, and repeat the experiment. Do you start noticing, that everywhere this note is, the other one you first found all over the place has a specific distance or INTERVAL from the nearest note from the first step? Hmmm? That's because wherever you go, the interval of two notes is practicly always the same number of frets/spacing away from each other. That's how patterns began after all...

Lets continue, with yet another note of that Pattern...and repeat until you've done ALL the notes. This process should NOT be done quickly but slowly, letting the notes sink in...and their sound. SOON you'll be SEEING the intervals automatically, and thus the ability to PLAY a scale/mode anywhere. 

Try that and see if it helps you expand beyond the pattern, and playing accross the neck.... HEAR the notes, IGNORE the pattern.


I personally tend to play more by ear...almost TOO much in fact. I once began jamming along with a track, not knowing the key. After playing 6 or so notes (and at least two wrong ones ) I began "hearing" the key or the defining "intervals". Upon this I jammed everywhere on the fretboard fairly well, and in key. When the bassist asked what key it was, I shrugged and said "I dunno"... His jaw dropped. I had to go back, look at what intervals I had been playing and see what notes I actually played to tell him the key. It's because I concentrate on the SOUND of the notes & intervals, and I don't think about oh, it's Em Pentatonic so I play this pattern. So in the end, one needs a solid foundation in the ear and mental note placement aspecs. If you can do both, and quickly without thinking, your well on your way.


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## MetalSir (Aug 28, 2007)

BCrowell said:


> (..)HEAR & SEE the intervals on the fretboard..everywhere on the fretboard.(..)



eheh.. right, i love this thing you wrote!




BCrowell said:


> (..)HEAR the notes, IGNORE the pattern.(..)



mmm.. i mind that hearing notes is really the key af everything.. in conservatory we make a lot of dictate solfeggios in order to learn to HEAR notes and to classificate it.. but i mind that pattern are important just to SEE the intervals on the fretboard.. just to have a clear image of notes on the freatboard and to memorize position.. in my opinion pattern are a shortcut, for a starter student, for quickly try to improvise and mixes scales, modes and intervals.. just to make experimets on scalin' up..

OBVIOUSLY theory of music is ever VITAL.

=)

BCrowell what do you think about? =)


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## BCrowell (Aug 28, 2007)

MetalSir said:


> ... but i mind that pattern are important just to SEE the intervals on the fretboard.. just to have a clear image of notes on the freatboard and to memorize position.. in my opinion pattern are a shortcut, for a starter student, for quickly try to improvise and mixes scales, modes and intervals.. just to make experimets on scalin' up..
> 
> OBVIOUSLY theory of music is ever VITAL.
> 
> ...



I Agree, the pattern is a good starting point, but many students become too dependant on it. What I'm saying is learn the pattern, sure, but not at expense of the music or notes. In the end, when you can "see & hear" the intervals, you are in fact able to instantly create the patterns in your head. No longer relying on some pattern written on paper, and thus set free amongst the neck.

Let me know if this translation works!?
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## dude777 (Aug 29, 2007)

MetalSir said:


> can i give you this..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



how do i use this chart?


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## Brett89 (Aug 29, 2007)

BCrowell said:


> It sounds like you've learned your scale patterns and are now in dreaded pattern fixation. Meaning you can play a particular scale in one position, because you know the PATTERN, and that pattern in THAT position. Which is why I hate teaching them to begin with.
> 
> "You must UNLEARN, what you have learned" - Yoda
> 
> ...



That's a great idea, thank you!  Well, then I must sit down for a while and hunt for notes!


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## MetalSir (Aug 29, 2007)

BCrowell said:


> I Agree, the pattern is a good starting point, but many students become too dependant on it. What I'm saying is learn the pattern, sure, but not at expense of the music or notes. In the end, when you can "see & hear" the intervals, you are in fact able to instantly create the patterns in your head. No longer relying on some pattern written on paper, and thus set free amongst the neck.



absolutely true.. and we must say than improvising on pattern are really unimmaginative.. things becomes more interesting when you mix pattern to find YOURS musical ideas and YOUR pattern.. how someone said: just praticse! =)



dude777 said:


> how do i use this chart?



the chart tell us the key signature we have on each tonality.. if i say to you:

"ok guy!, let improvise on a Bb tonality!"

the chart tell you that Bb tonality has 2 key signature: Bb and Eb, that the realtive minour scale is G..



i know a really simply way to remember all the key signature.. just to remeber the order of apparition on pentagram (that is EVER the same) and use a banal matematic operation.. look at the chart.. is simply.. but i can't explain this in english.. i you whant i try in italian.. sorry man.. =(


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## josh821 (Sep 8, 2007)

I think you're saying you wanna play in any position in any key as effortlessly as the one position you're familiar with. Here's what helped me the most by far:

Start at the first fret on the low E string and play an ascending scale from that position in a pattern that you're familiar with. Move your pinky up to the next note in that scale once you reach the top and move your other fingers over with it. Now play down the notes of the scale from that point until you reach the bottom. Move your index finger up to the next note higher in the scale from the last note you played and play all the notes of the scale ascending again. Do this as far up the neck as is comfortable then go back down the neck the same exact way.

What you're essentially doing is taking the first note that you played on each string out and adding one past the last note you played on each string. This gives you a bunch of concrete patterns but also shows you how they're connected to each other so you can skip around between them. Also, it's good for showing a clear relationship between different related scales since if you start out playing say, F minor ascending your descending scale next to that is the same as a common pattern for G# major.

Not sure if I explained this well enough but if not you should check out a section of Guthrie Govan's Creative Guitar part 1. That's where I picked up the idea myself.


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