# Star Wars Episode VIII The Last Jedi



## StevenC

Don't like the title, but hopefully with Rian Johnson writing and directing we'll get a great movie. Still love Looper.


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## TedEH

The logo looks weird to me in that red colour. Doesn't feel Star-Wars-y.


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## MFB

TedEH said:


> The logo looks weird to me in that red colour. Doesn't feel Star-Wars-y.



A lot of people are speculating why it's red vs. gold/yellow, and if it's a Sith vs. Jedi reference etc...


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## Ralyks

I like the title, but I feel like this would have been a better title for Episode IX


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## bostjan

Does that mean no more Jedi after this? Are they being replaced with something else?

I mean, everything happened long ago in a galaxy far away, so maybe the Jedi have to go extinct- it just seems like a bleak title. And a lot of the interviews have been strongly hinting that this is not supposed to be a dark chapter, like _The Empire Strikes Back_, but it seems like a dark title, and the logo looks more menacing, maybe. Who knows, at this point. They probably haven't even decided what kind of movie this will be yet.


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## Captain Butterscotch

There is almost zero verified info that's been leaked on this movie yet so all I can say is that I like the title and wonder how the red title will tie in.


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## Ibanezsam4

considering second acts are usually dark, this bleak title makes sense


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## Demiurge

It's a little bit vague for too much speculation. As of the last movie, Luke was implied to be the only Jedi left and even if Rey trains with him and becomes one herself, then it's the two of them who are the titular last Jedi. Hopefully, it doesn't mean that Luke dies and it's just Rey because if they're going into IX without Hamill, Fisher, or Ford that cast is in trouble.


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## Hollowway

Yeah, I would take it as "down to just one Jedi, who will train up others to become Jedi again." Though I have no idea. But that is close to what happened with the original triology, so it may be.


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## MFB

Isn't "Jedi" able to be used both in the plural and singular forms? 

Like, Luke claims "I am a Jedi like my father before me," but Anakin also says "[...] and in my eyes, the Jedi are evil [...]" so I don't know if we'll see a lone Jedi like most are expecting.


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## setsuna7

If the "leaked" script are true, this title make sense.


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## Emperor Guillotine

Keep in mind that the Jedi were technically extinct in the original trilogy. Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only two left, and they both had gone into hiding. So I wonder if this title alludes to a true extinction of the Jedi with none left?


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## setsuna7

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Keep in mind that the Jedi were technically extinct in the original trilogy. Obi-Wan and Yoda were the only two left, and they both had gone into hiding. So I wonder if this title alludes to a true extinction of the Jedi with none left?



There were still some Jedi that survived Order 66, mainly Pawadans like Kannan Jarrus in Star Wars Rebels. Whether or not him and his Pawadan Ezra Bridger survives the Battle of Scariff(or the entire Ghost crew for that matter), remain to be seen, as SWR season 3 are still ongoing, and that Maul are going to face off with Ben Kenobi on Tattooine.


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## bostjan

MFB said:


> Isn't "Jedi" able to be used both in the plural and singular forms?
> 
> Like, Luke claims "I am a Jedi like my father before me," but Anakin also says "[...] and in my eyes, the Jedi are evil [...]" so I don't know if we'll see a lone Jedi like most are expecting.



Either way, the last Jedi means that after this movie, there ought not to be any more.

Was "The Last Emperor" about an Emperor who trained another Emperor, or was "The Last of the Mohicans" about how Uncas, the last Mohican, survives and has lots of children to replenish the population of the Mohican tribe?

So, why do you expect "The Last Jedi" to be anything like that? I think the title makes it clear that Luke is going to die at some point during the plot of the film.


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## MFB

bostjan said:


> Either way, the last Jedi means that after this movie, there ought not to be any more.
> 
> Was "The Last Emperor" about an Emperor who trained another Emperor, or was "The Last of the Mohicans" about how Uncas, the last Mohican, survives and has lots of children to replenish the population of the Mohican tribe?
> 
> So, why do you expect "The Last Jedi" to be anything like that? I think the title makes it clear that Luke is going to die at some point during the plot of the film.



I think it's going to be like you said, they'll be replaced by something else, an off-shoot of the Jedi order. Asoka Tano left the Jedi Order after Anakin became Darth Vader, but she still had her lightsabers and no affiliation (hence her yellow blade vs. green/blue/purple).

It's easy to assume some they'll kill Luke as he's Rey's mentor, and since Star Wars is the hero's journey - the mentor dying is one of the steps, but I don't know if that'll happen in this movie. I see it possibly happening in the next, but it seems too obvious for this one, especially with Han dying in VII.


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## GregoryP

It wouldn't necessarily mean that all living Jedi have to die. 

Are Jedi still needed if there the balance in the force is restored? 

Once the chosen one has completed the prophecy, all Jedi can go in retirement and take the Falcon to go sipping cocktails on the beaches of tatooine.


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## odibrom

Ok, I'm late to this conversation, but I think this title only means the Ep. VIII will be about Luke, who is (at the moment of Ep. VII) the last living Jedi in this saga... All the rest is pure speculation. Speculation leads to anxiety, anxiety leads to pain, pain leads to suffering and all this is the path to the dark side...


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## bostjan

MFB said:


> I think it's going to be like you said, they'll be replaced by something else, an off-shoot of the Jedi order. Asoka Tano left the Jedi Order after Anakin became Darth Vader, but she still had her lightsabers and no affiliation (hence her yellow blade vs. green/blue/purple).
> 
> It's easy to assume some they'll kill Luke as he's Rey's mentor, and since Star Wars is the hero's journey - the mentor dying is one of the steps, but I don't know if that'll happen in this movie. I see it possibly happening in the next, but it seems too obvious for this one, especially with Han dying in VII.



Agreed.



GregoryP said:


> It wouldn't necessarily mean that all living Jedi have to die.
> 
> Are Jedi still needed if there the balance in the force is restored?
> 
> Once the chosen one has completed the prophecy, all Jedi can go in retirement and take the Falcon to go sipping cocktails on the beaches of tatooine.



I mean, the Sith were destroyed in RotJ, but, for whatever reason, the story had to continue. I highly _highly_ *highly doubt that this will be the last Star Wars film, so, for them to wrap up the movie that way would be terrible. It would be like if George Lucas changed The Empire Strikes Back so that Luke kills Darth Vader during the cloud city duel, never finds out that Vader was his father, and then Luke and Leia leave cloud city together and have babies that all look like Yoda.*


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## odibrom

bostjan said:


> (...) but, for whatever reason, the story had to continue(...)



You mean the possibility of making money from this...


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## Kryss

most likely luke is the last jedi, meaning all the previous ones he was training were wiped out by knights of ren. unlike order 66 there won't be any other surviving jedi in the galaxy. he will probably train rey between 7 and 8. I could see him falling to snoke and the knights of ren at the end though, it would make a very dark timeline like how empire ended. could see a redemption arc though for kylo ren where after the deed is done he is no longer with snoke and rey and kylo turn on snoke and the other knights of ren. rey alone would not be very believable if luke falls to the knights of ren/snoke. obviously luke would still be far more powerful than rey. will be interesting to see where they go with episode 8.


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## bostjan

So any ideas on what Benicio Del Toro's character is going to be like?

My speculation (since no one asked):

Snoke is revealed, in a twist no one saw coming, to be Snoke, and not someone else from the OT or EU.
Del Toro will play a new villain. Too keep there from being too many villains, something happens to one of the other villains.
We will learn more about the backstories of Rey and Kylo, but some things will be still left unanswered, and some answers will just leave more questions, but, overall, I think we'll be left with a much more solid backstory.
C3PO and R2D2 will appear in the film.
The General Leia character will receive some sort of epic send-off.

Or else Snoke will be revealed to be Maz Kanata, who is really Jar Jar who is Darth Plagueis. Rey is actually a transgender clone of Palpatine, who kills Luke in revenge for the Death Star, thus the title. Then the last movie will be a struggle between Snoke/Kanata/JarJar/Plagueis and Rey/Palpatine.  Well, that's what it'll be if the fan theories are correct.


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## wankerness

StevenC said:


> Don't like the title, but hopefully with Rian Johnson writing and directing we'll get a great movie. Still love Looper.



I dunno. I almost hope we don't see any of his personality in it, just because that would mean Colin Trevorrow might actually be allowed to have input on IX, which might mean we'd get something as terrible as Jurassic World!!


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## StevenC

wankerness said:


> I dunno. I almost hope we don't see any of his personality in it, just because that would mean Colin Trevorrow might actually be allowed to have input on IX, which might mean we'd get something as terrible as Jurassic World!!



This is my greatest fear for Star Wars. I don't know how he got the job.


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## Bloody_Inferno

wankerness said:


> I dunno. I almost hope we don't see any of his personality in it, just because that would mean Colin Trevorrow might actually be allowed to have input on IX, which might mean we'd get something as terrible as Jurassic World!!



There have been 2 occasions on separate ends of the spectrum where I've been proven wrong with judging by the director. 

Gareth Edwards really made me worry about Rogue One. Monsters was less of a movie but more of an exhibition of good special effects on a budget and Godzilla 2014 was 10 minutes of awesome tailed at the end of a boring movie, which funny enough, barely had Godzilla in it. Then Rogue One came along and exceeded all my expectations. Granted that it's not a perfect Star Wars movie, but certainly the best from the director in my book. 

On the far end of the spectrum was Duncan Jones. 2 home runs in the form of Moon and Source Code, I was really excited that he was directing the Warcraft movie. He certainly hit all the right notes and pandered to the cries of whatever formulas people thought could make a great video game to film adaptation. Except Warcraft sucked. Can't win 'em all I guess...


In Rian Johnson's case, count me as excited. I loved Looper, and I'm going to consider this as a similar act as how a change of director from the previous Star Wars instalment gave us a right kind of story rich sequel it deserves.


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## wankerness

Monsters and Godzilla were both good and demonstrated an incredibly unique sense of scale between humans and huge things, but they both had wooden characters. Rogue One fit right in with that!

Warcraft is a weird one. I still haven't watched it. I've heard a lot of people describe it as a noble failure, as you pretty much just said. So, who knows. We'll see what his upcoming one is like.


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## Lorcan Ward

wankerness said:


> Warcraft is a weird one. I still haven't watched it. I've heard a lot of people describe it as a noble failure, as you pretty much just said. So, who knows. We'll see what his upcoming one is like.



There was a lot of studio interference in Warcraft, if you check out the early trailers it looked like a very different film. Just like Rouge One. 

It was good and bad. Quite messy and the casting was awful but the CGI is the best I've seen. The CGI on the orcs is eerily realistic. They way they move and show expressions is crazy. There is a great example in the first 5 minutes if you don't want to watch the full film.


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## Given To Fly

There is no way I can handle 11 months of speculation. Disney is smart, they know how to make great films when they need to. This is a situation where they need to make another great film. I liked "The Force Awakens." The people who saw it in theaters 7 - 8 times seemed to hate it. Like I said, Disney is smart.

I will admit, a trailer would be nice. It just so happens the Super Bowl is two weeks from now. I think Disney will show something of significance during the Super Bowl, perhaps after the Halftime Show.


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## jwade

I'm assuming the red title card means that either Rey or Kylo will flip flop. Revenge of the Sith was Anakin going to the dark side, Return of the Jedi was his redemption back to the light. I think it would be cool to see Rey go to the dark side, and Kylo turn back to the light. It'd be nice to have a female villain.

Additionally, since Daisy Ridley said she thought it was 'very obvious' who her parents are, I'm assuming that they'll go the simplest route and make her Luke's daughter. I'd prefer it if she were Obiwan's grandchild, or even Palpatine, but her being a Skywalker is definitely the easiest route. And no, I don't think for a second they'd be dumb enough to have her be Kylo's little sister. That would be offensively dumb.

I'm curious if they'll have Snoke turn out to be something really interesting, like something from beyond the outer rim. Having an opening to explore outside threats could lead to more Expanded Universe stuff to be brought in.


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## Andromalia

I mean, really, I could devise titles for starwars for free. After "Attack of the clones", this ? Come on....

Warcraft wasn't a bad movie, it got bad press because the expectations were over the roof and Metzen retconned his own stuff so many times every aspect of the story would ruffle some fan feathers. As a former WoW player I found it pretty fun, some effects people usually disliked were pretty much as you see them in the game. The movie however didn't have that overall "Blizzard quality" over it.



> I'm curious if they'll have Snoke turn out to be something really interesting, like something from beyond the outer rim.


My bet is he's Vader's majordomo we see in Rogue 1 in a scene that would otherwise be utterly usueless.


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## wankerness

Andromalia said:


> My bet is he's Vader's majordomo we see in Rogue 1 in a scene that would otherwise be utterly usueless.



What are you talking about? I don't remember it very well, but I thought the pointless scene with Vader was just him hanging out with his mask off in his castle not doing anything.


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## StevenC

wankerness said:


> What are you talking about? I don't remember it very well, but I thought the pointless scene with Vader was just him hanging out with his mask off in his castle not doing anything.



When Vader's in the bacta tank, some guy in a robe walks into the room to let Vader know he has a guest. There is speculation that this guy in the robe is Snoke.

One of the guys who is on the Lucas Film Star Wars canon team said that Snoke is not in Rogue One in any shape or form and has nothing to do with that film.


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## wankerness

StevenC said:


> When Vader's in the bacta tank, *some guy in a robe walks into the room to let Vader know he has a guest. There is speculation that this guy in the robe is Snoke.*
> 
> One of the guys who is on the Lucas Film Star Wars canon team said that Snoke is not in Rogue One in any shape or form and has nothing to do with that film.



Ah jeez. Movie conspiracists are really, really nuts sometimes. I suppose the priest in Little Mermaid was also supposed to have a boner and that whispering voice in Aladdin really said "teenagers take off your clothes."


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## bostjan

Why the hell does everyone keep insisting Snoke is somebody other than Snoke?!

I find these fan theories entertaining: Dath Plagueis is JarJar, Rey is Obi-Wan's granddaughter, Snoke is Sideous. None of them make any damn sense when you pick them apart, yet some folks are willing to defend the theories until the bitter end, regardless.


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## Ibanezsam4

bostjan said:


> Why the hell does everyone keep insisting Snoke is somebody other than Snoke?!
> 
> I find these fan theories entertaining: Dath Plagueis is JarJar, Rey is Obi-Wan's granddaughter, Snoke is Sideous. None of them make any damn sense when you pick them apart, yet some folks are willing to defend the theories until the bitter end, regardless.




there's this one youtube channel called Stupendous Wave that bathes in the glory of terrible fan theories and dresses them up with a production level that makes you think he's taking very seriously... at least that was what i thought until i figured out that he was taking it that seriously.

i had to block his channel on my account because it got so stupid. especially when he used titles like "such and so confirms so and so is this and that"


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## jwade

Andromalia said:


> My bet is he's Vader's majordomo we see in Rogue 1 in a scene that would otherwise be utterly usueless.



I doubt that scene was supposed to be anything more than showing that Vader had servants, and was obviously still never healed and needed continuous bacta tank use to stay alive.

What I more meant about Snoke was that I hope he's something unique, something like Yoda. Some species/race of beings that can provide some interesting branches for continued SW movies to expand with. The Extended Universe stuff had a bunch of great ideas, such as races of creatures coming from beyond the Outer Rim and causing a ....storm. It'd be interesting to see Disney set up an entirely new SW series outside of the current Episode I-IX Skywalker saga.

There'll likely be a teaser trailer released at this years Celebration in April, and I'm really hoping we get to see Benicio Del Toro's character. I'm excited that he'll be in a SW movie, big fan of that guy!


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## A-Branger

speaking of Snoke theories




for onec I would love to see that the whole meaning/plot is a complicated backstory thing surprise reveal crazy theory that happens.

but....

this is hollywood, so no matter what, they are going to keep things dumb down for regular people, so "the last Jedi" would mean Rey becoming one and Luke dying or something.

Even the thing "Jedi" meaning plural form its too complicated for some folks out there. To be saying "The last Jedi its actually a plural sentence so there would be more than one" blah blah, its too "deep" for normal Hollywood/Disney to be explaining to everyone and have the constant discussion. This kinds of things are meant to be simple. Specially when you take into account different languages, for example in spanish yes, the word Jedi can be left in there, but the words that come before "the last" we dont have a neutral word for it, or either you write it down in singular format, or in plural. So if you really want to know if the main tittle refers to a single Jedi or to many just have a look and the name of the movie in different languages

which btw its "El Ultimo Jedi", referring to a singular Jedi, not a plural sentence, you could argue that it can be still used as a plural because the word Jedi, but that would be a big gramatical mistake in the sentence, it would have to be "Los Ultimos Jedi" or something like that


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## Given To Fly

_"The droid will soon be delivered to The Resistance leading them to the last Jedi. If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise." - Supreme Leader Snoke, The Force Awakens _

I think the creepy giant laid out the plotline in his first line. Otherwise...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxes_of_material_implication

Personally, I think Disney wants to make a good movie that earns back some more of the $4.2 billion they paid George Lucas.


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## A-Branger

Given To Fly said:


> _"The droid will soon be delivered to The Resistance leading them to the last Jedi. If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise." - Supreme Leader Snoke, The Force Awakens _
> 
> I think the creepy giant laid out the plotline in his first line. Otherwise...




so meaning the last Jedi is Luke, and the "the new Jedi would rise", meaning like a new form of Jedi? like a new wave of them, starting with Rey I guess.

IF that so, then the title of the movie implies its going to be about Luke, which would help to explain the whole why hes there, whats been doing ect. But to be honest Im tired of it, I love the new saga is about new ppl, I dont want to see this new trilogy been back to be all about Luke


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## Given To Fly

A-Branger said:


> so meaning the last Jedi is Luke, and the "the new Jedi would rise", meaning like a new form of Jedi? like a new wave of them, starting with Rey I guess.
> 
> IF that so, then the title of the movie implies its going to be about Luke, which would help to explain the whole why hes there, whats been doing ect. But to be honest Im tired of it, I love the new saga is about new ppl, I dont want to see this new trilogy been back to be all about Luke



This is will probably drive you crazy, but yeah. When referring to Luke, Snoke is using Jedi in its singular form. When Snoke is referring to "the new Jedi," he is using Jedi in its plural form. 

The ratio of new characters to old characters definitely favors the youth. I think everything will be just fine.


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## StevenC

A-Branger said:


> IF that so, then the title of the movie implies its going to be about Luke, which would help to explain the whole why hes there, whats been doing ect. But to be honest Im tired of it, I love the new saga is about new ppl, I dont want to see this new trilogy been back to be all about Luke



But currently Luke is the most important character left in Star Wars. Until we know who Rey is, he's the only Skywalker left. We've got Ben Solo-Organa and Leia Organa, but one won't be in episode 9 and the other just proves this is still a series about Skywalker lineage.


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## Ibanezsam4

StevenC said:


> and the other just proves this is still a series about Skywalker lineage.



unless shiz really hits the fan in 8


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## Demiurge

Ibanezsam4 said:


> unless shiz really hits the fan in 8



Could be, but I wonder how dark Disney is really looking to go here. 

On one hand, the expectation is that this installment will be the "new Empire" in tone, but on the other there might be an adjustment based on what the younger part of the fanbase can endure. In TFA, kids see a few planets get wiped-out and Han Solo die (oh, the wailing in the theater ); Rogue One was an abattoir; this one, it seems more likely that she bows-out here than getting Uncanny Valley Leia in IX. Are they going to kill-off Luke, too? Or have Rey go to the dark side? They can't bum the kids out too much- there are toys to sell!


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## SD83

It seems like the official German title will be "Die letzten Jedi", which is plural.


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## A-Branger

SD83 said:


> It seems like the official German title will be "Die letzten Jedi", which is plural.



and in spanish is singular  makes me realize they let ppl in each country to translate the english main title to their own instead to give some pointers


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## MFB

A-Branger said:


> and in spanish is singular  makes me realize they let ppl in each country to translate the english main title to their own instead to give some pointers



Ultimos is singular?


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## SD83

My spanish is far from perfect, but I'm 99% sure "los ultimos" is not singular. Neither is the portuguese version. It's a bit dissapointing though because English is the only language I know where you can get away with "the last Jedi" without telling the audience if it's one or many, and if it's only one, if that one is male or female. Maybe they should have just kept the English title and leave everyone in the dark.


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## KnightBrolaire

Given To Fly said:


> _"The droid will soon be delivered to The Resistance leading them to the last Jedi. If Skywalker returns, the new Jedi will rise." - Supreme Leader Snoke, The Force Awakens _
> 
> I think the creepy giant laid out the plotline in his first line. Otherwise...
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradoxes_of_material_implication
> 
> Personally, I think Disney wants to make a good movie that earns back some more of the $4.2 billion they paid George Lucas.



my bet is that they have luke form the jedi temple again, just like in the extended universe. There's so much material in the extend universe that they'll probably cherry pick other good storylines from it as well.


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## A-Branger

MFB said:


> Ultimos is singular?





SD83 said:


> My spanish is far from perfect, but I'm 99% sure "los ultimos" is not singular. .



oh snap!

yeah "los Ultimos" is plural. But when I google up the movie title it came up in "El Ultimo Jedi".... meaning a singular format

maybe I google it wrong or something..... upsss my bad


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## dr_game0ver

French name announced: "Les derniers Jedi" wich is plural


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## Ralyks

I thought someone came out and confirmed that Jedi was plural in reference to the title?


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## Rachmaninoff

dr_game0ver said:


> French name announced: "Les derniers Jedi" wich is plural



Same for Portuguese: "Os Últimos Jedi", plural.


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## MFB

1:05 - Jedi Order symbol. ....in' aye.

https://www.facebook.com/StarWars/videos/1484172988300964/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED


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## wankerness

Well, at least this is one teaser that earns the name. I didn't get at all why the Thor 3 thing was labelled a "teaser," or the War for the Planet of the Apes, given both of them showed a ton of footage and seemed like regular trailers to me!

So yeah, basically, what little there was looked cool! The best possible trailer would be one that says "TREVORROW WAS FIRED OFF THE NEXT MOVIE!!" though.


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## StevenC

wankerness said:


> The best possible trailer would be one that says "TREVORROW WAS FIRED OFF THE NEXT MOVIE!!" though.



That would win me back to the Star Wars franchise.


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## Rachmaninoff

First teaser is out, boys...


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## Given To Fly

Luke needs to lose the "let's all give up and go home" attitude.


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## MFB

Given To Fly said:


> Luke needs to lose the "let's all give up and go home" attitude.



Who said give up and to home? Hes saying that there is more to the Force than the dark and the light; which if you recall is the same thing Palpatine suggested.


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## StevenC

MFB said:


> Who said give up and to home? Hes saying that there is more to the Force than the dark and the light; which if you recall is the same thing Palpatine suggested.



And was the whole point of Luke's journey through the first movies.


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## Given To Fly

MFB said:


> Who said give up and to home? Hes saying that there is more to the Force than the dark and the light; which if you recall is the same thing Palpatine suggested.



I was kidding.  Sort of...

I recall things not turning out so well for the people that listened to Palpatine's suggestions, especially the Jedi.

The only truth I know is BB-8 will be in there kickin' a$$ like always and Disney pushed _frisson_ ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisson ) to new levels.


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## A-Branger

Worked last time, so why change it? lol

yay for creativity  

-"hey boss, what about this SW trailer?"
-"when is it due?"
-"tomorrow"
-"f^&k!!...mmmm uummmm...s*&t!... just grab whatever they did to the previous movie and copy that"


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## wankerness

A-Branger said:


> Worked last time, so why change it? lol
> 
> yay for creativity
> 
> -"hey boss, what about this SW trailer?"
> -"when is it due?"
> -"tomorrow"
> -"f^&k!!...mmmm uummmm...s*&t!... just grab whatever they did to the previous movie and copy that"




You realize that the TFA trailer on the left is not how it was, and the maker of that video reedited it to try and get it to match, right?

Right?

No?



There are definitely some similar shots, which I'd certainly expect in a trailer to a movie FOR A DIRECT SEQUEL. The horror!


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## MFB

wankerness said:


> You realize that the TFA trailer on the left is not how it was, and the maker of that video reedited it to try and get it to match, right?
> 
> Right?
> 
> No?
> 
> 
> 
> There are definitely some similar shots, which I'd certainly expect in a trailer to a movie FOR A DIRECT SEQUEL. The horror!



I hadn't gotten a chance to watch this video yet, but I've heard everyone saying the same thing.

Mob mentality is a funny thing it seems


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## A-Branger

wankerness said:


> You realize that the TFA trailer on the left is not how it was, and the maker of that video reedited it to try and get it to match, right?
> 
> Right?
> 
> No?
> 
> 
> 
> There are definitely some similar shots, which I'd certainly expect in a trailer to a movie FOR A DIRECT SEQUEL. The horror!



my bad. The TFA teaser trailer was so long ago that I didnt fully remembered. So I guess I got caught in the trap.

I know the shots are similar I know Im expecting that. TBH I wasnt upset if this trailers thing was real, for me was more like a fun factor. I though it might have been fully on purpose like an easter egg thing, and I though that was pretty clever idea. I was just making a fun comment about the trailers being done the same


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## A-Branger

MFB said:


> I hadn't gotten a chance to watch this video yet, but I've heard everyone saying the same thing.
> 
> Mob mentality is a funny thing it seems









*I said beep beep Ima sheep*


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## protest

Accuracy of the trailer comparison aside, I'll just never understand societies increasing need to care so vehemently about such utterly pointless ..... 

All I know is there's an epic space battle so I'm in. Also, Luke was never really been a true Jedi. He had the thing in the cave, he forced choked people, and went into rage bezerk mode. I think the movie poster is showing Rey as the last Jedi and then Kylo and Luke are something else, whether that's Sith or neither side I'm not sure.


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## A-Branger

although I agree wiht you on the Luke didnt quite "finish" his training or whatever. Thats something that it jsut cant be. Too many fans out there to them go into "Luke is not a Jedi" story. Heck the VI movie is "return of the Jedi", even if it was meant for Anakin, people still have in their hearts the Luke IS a Jedi.

Plus we already discover that this new movie title is in plural

and for your other point, Im in into this movie even without seeing anything. For a moment I actually loved the idea of the two trailers being the same, I just found it funny.

And for what its worth I would try to do what I have recently done with many movies. Ignore Every Trailer!!!!. I manage to do so with other movies, even till the point to pull out my phone during the trailers at the cinema and almost the cover my ears and go "alalalalalalal" but believe me it makes the movie experience SOOOOOOOOOOO much better. Recent trailers show far too much. I took the stupidity to watch the latest for the new spiderman and I was like "oh, there goes the ENTIRE plot of the movie.....great", now I just would watch it by filling the gaps in between the trailer shots.


----------



## MFB

I did the same thing with the last Star Wars: I watched the first full trailer, and nothing else. 

Let me tell you - it gets really difficult later on, because they promote it EVERYWHERE. On TV, it seemed like every other commercial was for Star Wars, and you'll see ads for it in the streets and on billboards, etc... I'd consider this a full trailer since it did enough teasing and world building for me to say OK, no more.


----------



## bostjan

Just a general comment about movie trailers. IMO, they are supposed to get people to go see the movie, but too many trailers these days tell you the whole plot of the movie, so, instead of intriguing you, they just spoil the movie.

Maybe just show me something that lets me know the tone of the film.


----------



## wankerness

Trailers these days show far less in the spoiler department than they used to, probably cause the internet generation has popularized the very idea of the spoiler and raging about it. Go watch practically any trailer for an action/sci-fi movie from the 80s or earlier, and it will include nearly every single stunt/effects shot in the movie, even if it involves a main character dying at the end of the movie or whatever, just cause movies used to have so few effects in them that you needed to include all of them to fill up a trailer 

Some of them had brilliant marketing departments that did the reverse (Alien/Aliens has particularly great trailers that show almost nothing in the way of the monsters and build tension the whole time), but so many do what I said above. Ex, even frickin Jurassic Park has the T-Rex save at the end right there in the trailer.


----------



## Dayviewer

bumpity:


----------



## StevenC

This looks so much better than the last one.


----------



## wankerness

Yeah, looks good, I love episode VII also though, which while a normal opinion with normal people seems to put me in a tiny minority on message boards. The worst part of this trailer is every commentariat trying to be first to copy/paste the hottake of EPISODE VII IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS THE FIRST MOVIE AND THIS IS EXACTLY THE SAME AS ESB!!11 ALSO IT LOOKS HORRIBLE JUST LIKE VII !11


----------



## lewis

loved the Force Awakens and cannot wait to see the next instalment in this new story.

This trailer is glorious and does make it look even better than the last movie!. bring it on.

December cannot come soon enough haha.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The Force Awakens played it very safe so I'm really looking forward to where they go with this film. I loved Rogue One so this will have a lot to live up to.


----------



## MickD7

Grabbed a midnight premier ticket. So keen


----------



## MFB

New AT-ATs were really all I needed to see, the rest was just icing

It was also much easier to get tickets this time around for midnight showings, so that was nice


----------



## Metropolis

Kylo is really confused about his place to be, and he's remorsing everything he has done in he past, eventually Kylo will turn into light side, and team up with Rey and Luke to defeat Snoke at some point. Or Luke will not accept this alliance and he will turn against Rey and Kylo, because he's too afraid to do it. This leads to difficult situation where they both have to deafeat Luke. Also Leia has to die, sadly because it's almost the only option at this point. It will be intresting how it's gonna happen.

Rey is born from the midichlorians just like Anakin was, so Snoke wants her to turn into dark side and become the most powerful force user there ever was. Whole dark vs. light thing becomes more grey area in this film.

Or I could be completely wrong because "This will not go... the way you think". I just expect this one to be the darkest and best one of these new Star Wars movies. But not too predictable as trailers are trying to convince. Hopefully trailers are misleading everyone, and story will have a huge twist in it.


----------



## lewis

Metropolis said:


> Kylo is really confused about his place to be, and he's remorsing everything he has done in he past, eventually Kylo will turn into light side, and team up with Rey and Luke to defeat Snoke at some point. Or Luke will not accept this alliance and he will turn against Rey and Kylo, because he's too afraid to do it. This leads to difficult situation where they both have to deafeat Luke. Also Leia has to die, sadly because it's almost the only option at this point. It will be intresting how it's gonna happen.
> 
> Rey is born from the midichlorians just like Anakin was, so Snoke wants her to turn into dark side and become the most powerful force user there ever was. Whole dark vs. light thing becomes more grey area in this film.
> 
> Or I could be completely wrong because "This will not go... the way you think". I just expect this one to be the darkest and best one of these new Star Wars movies. But not too predictable as trailers are trying to convince. Hopefully trailers are misleading everyone, and story will have a huge twist in it.



Yeah i understand this theory but Im really not sure Im liking the idea of Kylo being confused and eventually turning good.
Having said that it would be just like Hollywood to do the twist of Kylo going good and Rey going bad.

Also, if this does happen, how can in Star Wars Lore, you murder your father but still end up being good?
Hans death will be completely pointless if Kylo ends up as a good guy. Plus the trailer makes it look Kylo is going to kill Leia now too. Although not sure they will do that given Carrie has not long been dead in real life. Probably insensitive. 

I dont really know how I want it to unfold but the 1 thing that did piss me off was how over powered and forced (excuse the pun) that Rey was. Kylo getting beaten so easily was actually retarded.


----------



## TheDivineWing22

Kylo was fighting after being shot with Chewbacca’s bowcaster (which the movie made a point to show as being a very powerful weapon.) 

Being able to fight at all was impressive.


----------



## Metropolis

lewis said:


> Yeah i understand this theory but Im really not sure Im liking the idea of Kylo being confused and eventually turning good.
> Having said that it would be just like Hollywood to do the twist of Kylo going good and Rey going bad.
> 
> Also, if this does happen, how can in Star Wars Lore, you murder your father but still end up being good?
> Hans death will be completely pointless if Kylo ends up as a good guy. Plus the trailer makes it look Kylo is going to kill Leia now too. Although not sure they will do that given Carrie has not long been dead in real life. Probably insensitive.
> 
> I dont really know how I want it to unfold but the 1 thing that did piss me off was how over powered and forced (excuse the pun) that Rey was. Kylo getting beaten so easily was actually retarded.



But you can still turn into dark side convinced by a sith politician, kill some younglings and after that become one of the dark lords of the galaxy, and still end up being somewhat "good". 

Kylo noticed that killing his father weakened his powers, and did him nothing good. Trailer is not so obvious either in that part which shows him shooting something. Han's story was ending, and killing him will become major part of Kylo's story which will continue hopefully after this movie. But anything could happen, because it's Star Wars 

So because he was shot by Chewbacca's Bowcaster, weakened by act of killing his father and overall conditions combined he just couldn't fight properly. Anger lead him to suffering this time.


----------



## Ralyks

So apparently Last Jedi is going to be 2 and a half hours... That's bathroom break territory.


----------



## MFB

Turns out I fucked up and bought tickets for Fri. the 15th at 12_pm_ and I also have four jobs going out that day  Looks like I'll have to avoid the internet that weekend and just catch it the following Monday when the regular jabronies are at work


----------



## Metropolis

Three weeks, I can't wait or three weeks, can't wait I


----------



## wankerness

I haven't made any plans to see it yet, but I sure have made plans to avoid social media from release date till when I see it!


----------



## lelandbowman3

4 days, folks. (3 if you do midnight premiere)


----------



## mongey

got my tickets for Friday night .starts Thursday here in Oz but no baby sitting that night 

trying to keep my hype levels lowish so I can can just enjoy it no mater what


----------



## odibrom

PLEASE no spoilers...


----------



## StevenC

Have my tickets for Wednesday night/Thursday morning. Cautiously excited. Help me Rian Johnson, you're my only hope.


----------



## MFB

Fri @ 12PM for me.

Its been nothing but luck at work lately, one job got pushed until after the new year, and another until after the weekend; so I'll be working from home that day from 6am until I need to leave.

Trying to avoid the last few days of the marketing blitz and any early reviews


----------



## odibrom

I think I'll wait for the first batch of people going to the movie to pass on... or maybe not, depends if I can find a ticket yet.


----------



## p0ke

Metropolis said:


> Three weeks, I can't wait or three weeks, can't wait I



I believe "Three weeks, wait I cannot" would be the right order 

I'll have to see when I get to watch it, my wife liked Episode VII so much we ended up buying the limited edition steel case bluray, so I'm hoping she'll agree to come see this one with me as well. She thought Rogue One was boring, so I might have some convincing to do...

EDIT: Oh yeah, looks like we might be going on Monday


----------



## Lindmann

odibrom said:


> PLEASE no spoilers...


Luckily I am immune to spoilers as my memory is really really weak.
You could tell me the entire story and two days later...*poof* all gone.
I can watch movies several times and everytime I feel like was watching it for the first time.


----------



## bostjan

Spoiler



Shame on you for peeking


----------



## StevenC

bostjan said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Shame on you for peeking





Spoiler



Actual spoilers


----------



## MFB

StevenC said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Actual spoilers



Bro...



Spoiler


----------



## Lorcan Ward




----------



## StevenC

Lorcan Ward said:


>





Spoiler


----------



## Metropolis

p0ke said:


> I believe "Three weeks, wait I cannot" would be the right order
> 
> I'll have to see when I get to watch it, my wife liked Episode VII so much we ended up buying the limited edition steel case bluray, so I'm hoping she'll agree to come see this one with me as well. She thought Rogue One was boring, so I might have some convincing to do...
> 
> EDIT: Oh yeah, looks like we might be going on Monday



16 hours, wait I cannot


----------



## StevenC

Spoiler



Disney can choke on the last money they'll ever get from me


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Saw it. And because this thread is now full of spoiler tags:



Spoiler






Bloody_Inferno said:


> In Rian Johnson's case, count me as excited. I loved Looper, and I'm going to consider this as a similar act as how a change of director from the previous Star Wars instalment gave us a right kind of story rich sequel it deserves.



Basically that. I like it. I like it a lot. The second act drags on a fair bit though, but definitely the best of the new Star Wars movies yet. And judging by the any news towards Solo and Ep.IX, it may be the best of the new Star Wars movie for a while.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

oh god why did I even look at this thread, waiting til monday is gonna kill me.


----------



## Metropolis

KnightBrolaire said:


> oh god why did I even look at this thread, waiting til monday is gonna kill me.



I saw it yesterday, and I think almost everyone will be suprised at least in couple of parts of the film. Just saying shortly that it was my favourite of all modern Star Wars films, so many things was done in the right way.


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

im going tonight. i promise no spoilers.


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

anyone else see it already?


----------



## MickD7

I caught a double billing with my my wife my big suggestion is view TFA right before or after the film. 

No spoilers

I thoroughly enjoyed it, I think Johnson handled the characters pretty well especially in developing Rey and Ren. It leaves a lot more at play for the next instalment as well. The cinematography that Rian added was very enhancing to some of the scenes and helped capture the atmosphere of the film. 

Spoiler 



Spoiler: Spoiler



The only character I can’t stand is Poe, I find the cringe comedic value poorly done and think his character should have been done more in line to that of Diego Luna’s performance of Cassian in Rogue One,

I’m guessing ep 9 will have a time jump of 2-5 years given the events in this film, this has to handled with utmost care in regards to Rey and Ren and how they become more connected to the force and I wouldn’t take anything for granted with two other characters from this film. 

I cried like a bitch when Luke and Leia had that scene together.


----------



## StevenC

Spoiler



The only characters I couldn't stand were Poe, Holdo, Finn, Rose and whoever Mark Hamill was playing.


----------



## naw38

MickD7 said:


> The cinematography that Rian added was very enhancing to some of the scenes and helped capture the atmosphere of the film.
> 
> [/SPOILER]





Spoiler



Are you talking about the red/white sand during the climactic battle? I thought that was awesome when the ships were going in a straight line, but once they started veering off to the sides I freaked out and swore in the theatre. That was so fucking cool, man. Overall, I thought the film was fantastic; a few meandering and ultimately pointless plot lines, but they were handled in a fun way, so it's only a minor complaint.


----------



## MickD7

naw38 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Are you talking about the red/white sand during the climactic battle? I thought that was awesome when the ships were going in a straight line, but once they started veering off to the sides I freaked out and swore in the theatre. That was so fucking cool, man. Overall, I thought the film was fantastic; a few meandering and ultimately pointless plot lines, but they were handled in a fun way, so it's only a minor complaint.






Spoiler



oh man that was a stunning part, I’m also talking about Derns actions and the ultimate team up with Rey and Kylo the scenes that pulled back with no dialogue and just let the cinematography and soundtrack speak for itself are incredible


----------



## setsuna7

Saw it yesterday, fucking awesome!! Need a second or third rewatch, there’s so many shit going on. Damn, them Porgs are annoyingly adorable!!


----------



## odibrom

I know I'm not being forced to, but please stop with the spoilers... please... Give them a weak...


----------



## StevenC

Spoiler



Snoke is a red herring


----------



## MFB

Same review I posted on Letterboxd



Spoiler



Poetic pretentiousness first:

An old man at the end of his journey stares out at twin suns with the eyes of a young man who's journey is just about to begin; and all is as it should be.

That said, I do have some strong feelings about certain aspects:

The humor - only Han was snarky in the originals, and even the prequels didn't try to force humor in after Phantom Menace/the great Jar Jar blunder - so don't try to put it in this new trilogy.

Rose - everything with her felt forced and like an afterthought. I'm curious how Finn's scenes would be if she wasn't in them, since as far as I can tell, the only thing she did was provide the necklace for them to break in to the room with.

Leia - only issue here was her ridiculous bridge survival that lead to her suddenly being able to fly via the Force; but to quote her now dead husband, "that's not how the Force works!" No clue what they were they were thinking.

Snoke - For all the hype, he certainly went down rather simply; but maybe that's the best part of it? He was caught monologuing and he paid the price for it. Occam's Razor and all that, the simplest solution is often the correct one.

Phasma - another victim of hype, I feel like she'll be the Boba Fett of a new generation: a cool suit, too little screen time, and an untimely death.

All that being said, it did have high moments that I enjoyed and were great - animatronic Yoda giving guidance to Like, Luke's line to Leia - which lets he real, this was writers to the audience about Carrie - saying no one is ever really gone, Rey taking up the torch of the Jedi and continuing the balance.

Imperial Guards - finally, they're worth a shit!

Thing I'm looking forward to: new fighter designs hopefully, since all the X-wings and bombers are currently destroyed. Kylo Ren's new helmet, or if he'll continue as an unmasked Supreme Leader for the First Order. Ren's construction of her own lightsaber using the crystal from Luke's old one.

I'm anxious to see how they close out this series.


----------



## Sumsar

Spoiler: Spoiler



Was better than TFA, but as others said the humour is kinda out of place - It is not American Pie .. it is Star Wars, so they could atleast try and make it fell just a little more .. epic?

As with TFA this one also seems to have a very strong influence from the originals, the overall story is kinda like a copy paste of episode V just like TFA was of IV.

Also the CGI sucked big time - every creature looked reeealy fake. In the scene where Luke and Ren fights the AT-AT walkers in the background looks like someone is holding up a canvas behind them lol. That was one of the few things i liked about TFA - they had tried to use more real props rather than just making it a CGI wankfest, which I fell this is to an extent.

I liked the Snooke part with 'take of that ridicules helmet' because that is basicly what I, and probably many others have thought about it since I first saw it.

Maybe it is just me, but I also think the movie is too fast paced? I really liked that about Blade Runner 2049 - it took it's time, and wasn't in a hurry, which is also what I like about the old movies (and the original blade runner, even though back then they where fast paced compared to what else was arounrd.

All in all I think it was a fine movie, but at this point I think I have stopped believing that Disney will do the Star Wars universe justice.


----------



## mongey

Saw it. Liked it overall. Def liked 2me Half more than 1st.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Glad you guys liked it. From what I've seen elsewhere, people were pretty split about it. Quite a few people thought it was shit and/or "the death of the series." A bit hyperbolic, I'm sure, but they obviously didn't like it. They also pointed out that Rotten Tomatoes rating for the audience score or whatever went from 61 to 58 to 54 or something along those lines.


----------



## StevenC

Spoiler



I'm not being hyperbolic when I say I'll be avoiding everything Disney from now on. Still don't understand why Luke wasn't in this film.


----------



## Quiet Coil

The Last Jedi indeed. Disney can suck it.


----------



## wankerness

I don't get what is pissing people off other than a few really butthurt fan reactions I read that essentially amounted to WAHHH


Spoiler



LUKE DIDN'T DO WHAT I WANTED HIM TO


 WAHHHH

Oh, and some IT'S SO JOKEY IT'S LIKE A MARVEL MOVIE, which is ridiculous, considering how much jokey stuff is stuck in the OT. I am guessing many who said that also think Rogue One is awesome for being so "dark and serious."

EDIT: I wrote this before I even read this thread, I guess there's some of that here, too! It wasn't directed at you personally, I swear!

I didn't like the casino section, AT ALL, and that whole half hour or 45 minutes felt really bogged down cause of it. Oh well. The last hour or so was really great, but it was really lurchily paced. It seemed like the movie organically should have ended right after


Spoiler



the awesome Rey/Kylo fight and follow-up, but it just kept going...and going. Almost all of the scenes were GOOD, it just felt repeatedly like the movie could have ended at them. I was very surprised just how much kept getting added. I loathed the very last minute or so and for some reason it felt transplanted in from the prequels. But, the Rey/Kylo/Luke


 stuff is all handled excellently and is IMO the best character stuff in any Star Wars movie. And the visuals are the best of ANY Star Wars movie by a lot. It's a really good-looking movie. I liked some of the visual nods to the likes of Kurosawa's "Ran," too. And the BIG visual moment (the one where the sound drops out!!) was AWESOME.

Some really ADD high schooler was sitting right in front of me, and a couple of his reactions were interesting and I can't say I totally disagreed with him. The big two I remember were loud snorts at the exact second that Laura Dern's purple-haired character came on screen, and same with


Spoiler



that terrible-looking Yoda. Why is the 1980 puppet still the best-looking? It still looked better than the CGI thing from the prequels, though!


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Same review I posted on Letterboxd
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Poetic pretentiousness first:
> 
> An old man at the end of his journey stares out at twin suns with the eyes of a young man who's journey is just about to begin; and all is as it should be.
> 
> That said, I do have some strong feelings about certain aspects:
> 
> The humor - only Han was snarky in the originals, and even the prequels didn't try to force humor in after Phantom Menace/the great Jar Jar blunder - so don't try to put it in this new trilogy.
> 
> Rose - everything with her felt forced and like an afterthought. I'm curious how Finn's scenes would be if she wasn't in them, since as far as I can tell, the only thing she did was provide the necklace for them to break in to the room with.
> 
> Leia - only issue here was her ridiculous bridge survival that lead to her suddenly being able to fly via the Force; but to quote her now dead husband, "that's not how the Force works!" No clue what they were they were thinking.
> 
> Snoke - For all the hype, he certainly went down rather simply; but maybe that's the best part of it? He was caught monologuing and he paid the price for it. Occam's Razor and all that, the simplest solution is often the correct one.
> 
> Phasma - another victim of hype, I feel like she'll be the Boba Fett of a new generation: a cool suit, too little screen time, and an untimely death.
> 
> All that being said, it did have high moments that I enjoyed and were great - animatronic Yoda giving guidance to Like, Luke's line to Leia - which lets he real, this was writers to the audience about Carrie - saying no one is ever really gone, Rey taking up the torch of the Jedi and continuing the balance.
> 
> Imperial Guards - finally, they're worth a shit!
> 
> Thing I'm looking forward to: new fighter designs hopefully, since all the X-wings and bombers are currently destroyed. Kylo Ren's new helmet, or if he'll continue as an unmasked Supreme Leader for the First Order. Ren's construction of her own lightsaber using the crystal from Luke's old one.
> 
> I'm anxious to see how they close out this series.



Humor - Han is NOT the only "humor" in the OT. Like, in the first movie alone, all the stuff with C3P0 and R2D2 is relentless and pretty damn cringeworthy if you take the nostalgia blinders off. It just increases as the movies go on. I think it's sort of necessary considering how silly the movies are in concept. I don't think anything about this was too much, except maybe the Porgs and the "prank call" right at the beginning, which I still found funny. I loved what they did with Hux. And the prequels not forcing in humor? I think you have to watch them again. Well, you probably SHOULDN'T watch them again, but they are LOADED with stupid crap. Like, how could you possibly forget the character Elan Sleazebaggano (yes, that is really his name) trying to sell Deathsticks?

Rose is annoying, but none of those scenes would play with Finn and the robot alone, and she's essential for keeping him honest, etc. I didn't like her much, but I think she was crucial. Even if I don't like their plotline.

Leia - that


Spoiler



flight scene is getting a lot of grief, and I also thought it was stupid, but "the force doesn't work like that?" How DOES it work? Based on the other movies, it allows people to jump thousands and thousands of feet onto taxi cabs, swim thousands of feet under the water, etc. I also remember Luke doing exactly that in some Timothy Zahn book, not that they are "canon" anymore.



Snoke -


Spoiler



I liked everything about what they did with him. I liked that they cleared him out of the way instead of setting it up to replay beats from ROTJ. It was a good surprise.

Phasma is awful. I would guess that she's not dead. Gwendoline Christie must have dirt on someone - they have to give her some worthless scene so she can come on the press junkets and hype up that useless character. She reminds me less of Boba Fett and more of Krycek on the X-Files - show up, do something sinister, pathetically get slapped around by the heroes and disappear just as quickly!





MickD7 said:


> I caught a double billing with my my wife my big suggestion is view TFA right before or after the film.
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The only character I can’t stand is Poe, I find the cringe comedic value poorly done and think his character should have been done more in line to that of Diego Luna’s performance of Cassian in Rogue One,



The jury is out on what I think of Poe. I'll have to see it again. I saw some funny reactions in which people said


Spoiler



Poe is the #1 threat to the resistance and everything he did made things worse. I think that's actually more or less accurate and was also intentional! He's a hot-headed doof, and ultimately Laura Dern's character really DOES save the day after he f's things up once again. It's probable that he grew in this movie and will be someone mature in the third film, but he very much is an idiot that gets people killed right and left here. He's a hot-shot that people like, but he's dangerous to his own people.


----------



## StevenC

For me, this movie just doesn't feel like Star Wars. It's like really long, high budget fan fiction. It disregards everything I learned about the Star Wars universe through the first 6 films. I don't understand why in 30 years Luke didn't stop the First Order. I don't understand why characters behave the way they do. I don't understand why the included the original cast to do with them what they did. I don't know why it was so preachy in the middle. I don't know why this movie gets so hung up on sentiment, like Luke's old lightsaber, yet not the sentiment of the original 6 movies. I don't understand why there was no pay off for anything, including red herrings and MacGuffins, leaving questions seemingly unable to be answered. I don't understand why every cool bit had to be immediately followed up by that coolness being undone. I don't understand why the movie was so long. I don't understand why they couldn't get people in the same room in less convoluted ways. I don't understand why it tried so hard to be Episode V at some points, and the rest of the time tried so hard to prove that it wasn't Episode V.

I don't understand why they bought Star Wars to make Star Wars movies and didn't listen to any of George Lucas's ideas.


----------



## Church2224

StevenC said:


> For me, this movie just doesn't feel like Star Wars. It's like really long, high budget fan fiction. It disregards everything I learned about the Star Wars universe through the first 6 films. I don't understand why in 30 years Luke didn't stop the First Order. I don't understand why characters behave the way they do. I don't understand why the included the original cast to do with them what they did. I don't know why it was so preachy in the middle. I don't know why this movie gets so hung up on sentiment, like Luke's old lightsaber, yet not the sentiment of the original 6 movies. I don't understand why there was no pay off for anything, including red herrings and MacGuffins, leaving questions seemingly unable to be answered. I don't understand why every cool bit had to be immediately followed up by that coolness being undone. I don't understand why the movie was so long. I don't understand why they couldn't get people in the same room in less convoluted ways. I don't understand why it tried so hard to be Episode V at some points, and the rest of the time tried so hard to prove that it wasn't Episode V.
> 
> I don't understand why they bought Star Wars to make Star Wars movies and didn't listen to any of George Lucas's ideas.



This. I can honestly say I saw this movie opening night and thought I wasted my time. I hate saying it but I enjoyed Episode III better than this film, and I hate the prequels outside of the awesomeness that is the Clone Troopers. 

They will never capture the magic the original trilogy did...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

StevenC said:


> For me, this movie just doesn't feel like Star Wars. It's like really long, high budget fan fiction. It disregards everything I learned about the Star Wars universe through the first 6 films. I don't understand why in 30 years Luke didn't stop the First Order. I don't understand why characters behave the way they do. I don't understand why the included the original cast to do with them what they did. I don't know why it was so preachy in the middle. I don't know why this movie gets so hung up on sentiment, like Luke's old lightsaber, yet not the sentiment of the original 6 movies. I don't understand why there was no pay off for anything, including red herrings and MacGuffins, leaving questions seemingly unable to be answered. I don't understand why every cool bit had to be immediately followed up by that coolness being undone. I don't understand why the movie was so long. I don't understand why they couldn't get people in the same room in less convoluted ways. I don't understand why it tried so hard to be Episode V at some points, and the rest of the time tried so hard to prove that it wasn't Episode V.
> 
> I don't understand why they bought Star Wars to make Star Wars movies and didn't listen to any of George Lucas's ideas.


probably because listening to lucas is how we ended up with fucking jar jar


----------



## StevenC

KnightBrolaire said:


> probably because listening to lucas is how we ended up with fucking jar jar


That was listening to Lucas too much. We're all well aware that the right way to do Star Wars is with Lucas writing, someone else helping, and someone else directing. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this franchise 40 years later.


----------



## Church2224

StevenC said:


> That was listening to Lucas too much. We're all well aware that the right way to do Star Wars is with Lucas writing, someone else helping, and someone else directing. Otherwise we wouldn't be talking about this franchise 40 years later.



Exactly. Plus it is not like there is an incredible, in depth, thought provoking expanded universe they could have used to get their material from, oh wait, their is, but they decided to throw it all out and give Star Wars the same formula as Marvel.

Remember the Thrawn Trilogy? Oh yeah they decided to throw Thrawn into a Kids show instead...


----------



## StevenC

Also, very major bits of this movie are middle fingers to the audience just for the sake of it.



Spoiler



Want to speculate for years about things? Well, now Snoke's dead and Rey's parents are nobody. If you wanted something more engaging, dry your eyes with this Star Wars brand tissue.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Church2224 said:


> Exactly. Plus it is not like there is an incredible, in depth, thought provoking expanded universe they could have used to get their material from, oh wait, their is, but they decided to throw it all out and give Star Wars the same formula as Marvel.
> 
> Remember the Thrawn Trilogy? Oh yeah they decided to throw Thrawn into a Kids show instead...


I mean TFA is kind of a bastardized version of the jacen/jaina solo series of books, which is stupid, they could have just followed the books and made a solid set of films (plotwise).


----------



## wankerness

StevenC said:


> Also, very major bits of this movie are middle fingers to the audience just for the sake of it.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Want to speculate for years about things? Well, now Snoke's dead and Rey's parents are nobody. If you wanted something more engaging, dry your eyes with this Star Wars brand tissue.



Seriously - what would have made these three plotlines


Spoiler



(Snoke/Rey's parents/Luke)


 good to you, and how would they have been better/smarter than what we got? Yes, all three subverted expectations. Here, I'm going to give an explanation of why I think all three are good. I would love to hear a detailed response to my #3.



Spoiler



1) I was more than happy with Snoke being disposed of, partly because it would have been lame if they'd aped the Emperor formula from ESB/ROTJ with him being the ultimate baddy, and partly because Kylo Ren is a vastly more interesting villain and having him take over opens up a lot more interesting possibilities than keeping him in the Vader bulldog position.

2) I was so relieved that Rey wasn't Kylo Ren's twin, as everyone was predicting through the first movie. It couldn't have been more predictable and it was a real relief having a main character that actually stands alone from the others. As the movie is largely about not repeating the sins and failures of parents/elders, it also makes her fierce commitment to friends and new family her most important trait. It's good. Who did you want to be her parents??

3) Luke was the same flawed human he was in the OT! Seriously, the guy was an impetuous hothead, he'd cooled off by ROTJ, but he still was going counter to the Jedi teachings by freaking out against Vader when the Leia bait came. Here, he made a horrible mistake for a SPLIT SECOND at some point in the past. The movie is very, very specific that he had visions that Ben was going to cause the death of millions, and he reflexively turned on his lightsaber, instantly changed his mind, but it was already too late as Ben had woken up, and bam. Everyone died. It's not surprising he went off alone after that one. What did you want, did you want Kylo Ren to have had nothing to do with Luke, Luke to be in happy friendly mode, Luke to immediately zoom back to help everyone in the what, 12 hours the entire movie takes place in? In fact, if he HAD been there, he would have bombed at the same thing he did as when three thousand lasers trained on him he would have been blown into the dirt. GG. He still saved the day, he did so in a really clever manner, and none of what he did would have worked if he'd physically been there. I'm not sure how else he could have basically defeated that entire invasion force. The ONLY thing I didn't like about what they did with him was having him die suddenly at the end, only because it seemed perfunctory. His last lines with Leia were still great.



What did you want him to do?



Church2224 said:


> Exactly. Plus it is not like there is an incredible, in depth, thought provoking expanded universe they could have used to get their material from, oh wait, their is, but they decided to throw it all out and give Star Wars the same formula as Marvel.
> 
> Remember the Thrawn Trilogy? Oh yeah they decided to throw Thrawn into a Kids show instead...



This is mindblowing to me. Why on earth should they have copied crap from novels or TV shows or whatever??? Why would that have improved anything? Do people really want to see more adaptations and retreads and things that don't dare to even SLIGHTLY step outside what's come before? The fact I'm saying this about a Star Wars movie that features numerous returning characters from the OT makes it especially sad. You really just wanted a straight adaptation of those Timothy Zahn books instead of something new?



Church2224 said:


> They will never capture the magic the original trilogy did...



Of course they won't, cause you're not 10 years old anymore.


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> Seriously - what would have made these three plotlines
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> (Snoke/Rey's parents/Luke)
> 
> 
> good to you, and how would they have been better/smarter than what we got? Yes, all three subverted expectations. Here, I'm going to give an explanation of why I think all three are good. I would love to hear a detailed response to my #3.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I was more than happy with Snoke being disposed of, partly because it would have been lame if they'd aped the Emperor formula from ESB/ROTJ with him being the ultimate baddy, and partly because Kylo Ren is a vastly more interesting villain and having him take over opens up a lot more interesting possibilities than keeping him in the Vader bulldog position.
> 
> 2) I was so relieved that Rey wasn't Kylo Ren's twin, as everyone was predicting through the first movie. It couldn't have been more predictable and it was a real relief having a main character that actually stands alone from the others. As the movie is largely about not repeating the sins and failures of parents/elders, it also makes her fierce commitment to friends and new family her most important trait. It's good. Who did you want to be her parents??
> 
> 3) Luke was the same flawed human he was in the OT! Seriously, the guy was an impetuous hothead, he'd cooled off by ROTJ, but he still was going counter to the Jedi teachings by freaking out against Vader when the Leia bait came. Here, he made a horrible mistake for a SPLIT SECOND at some point in the past. The movie is very, very specific that he had visions that Ben was going to cause the death of millions, and he reflexively turned on his lightsaber, instantly changed his mind, but it was already too late as Ben had woken up, and bam. Everyone died. It's not surprising he went off alone after that one. What did you want, did you want Kylo Ren to have had nothing to do with Luke, Luke to be in happy friendly mode, Luke to immediately zoom back to help everyone in the what, 12 hours the entire movie takes place in? In fact, if he HAD been there, he would have bombed at the same thing he did as when three thousand lasers trained on him he would have been blown into the dirt. GG. He still saved the day, he did so in a really clever manner, and none of what he did would have worked if he'd physically been there. I'm not sure how else he could have basically defeated that entire invasion force. The ONLY thing I didn't like about what they did with him was having him die suddenly at the end, only because it seemed perfunctory. His last lines with Leia were still great.
> 
> 
> 
> What did you want him to do?


I'd like to have cared about the characters.


Spoiler



Snoke seduces Ben to the darkside, is shown to be really powerful and Luke was scared of him. Oh, he's dead? Right. So the Emperor's successor just existed so that there could be some other bad guy? Now I don't care about that guy, and I'm not scared of anyone he left behind because he was disposed of so easily. Takes everything out of it, and now Ben has no motivation.

I've spent the last two years not caring about Rey's character because she's boring. The one bit of intrigue is who she is and why Luke/Anakin's lightsaber cares who she is. So, maybe the point is that she's nobody. But if she's nobody, what's the point of her having a connection to the lightsaber? It removes any value of her being nobody, because now she's somebody. But we likely won't get that whole thing explained. I don't care if she's Luke's kid or Leia's kid or another force kid, just that the only value of her being a nobody is to piss off everyone who wanted to know who she was, which was speculation designed into the movies.

The whole point of the first 6 movies was that both the Jedi and Sith were wrong. The Jedi order wasn't a force for good and was very narrow minded. Luke realised this because two Jedi were manipulating him to murder his father. Anakin realised this because none of the Jedi lived up to the standards they set for him. Luke's whole thing was that he'd do anything to save his friends and family, like walking into a trap in Ep V. Anakin would do anything to save Padme. In this, Luke was some prick who didn't care about his friends or family, and saw value in the Jedi Order. I wanted Luke to be out there for some good reason, but he just abandoned his friends to wait for death. Yoda's in hiding and acting all weird as a test to Luke and trick the audience. In this, Luke's just a prick until for no reason he changes his mind. He's cut himself off from the force for no reason. Also, he left a map for some reason despite saying he didn't want to be found. Also, this is Luke the Jedi. Even if he's not a practising Jedi anymore, he still believes in it and knows as much as anybody about it. You can't tell me Luke the Jedi, who saw the prophecy play out in front of him, would react that way when faced with that lightsaber finding its way back to him. He dropped it 30+ years ago in another part of the galaxy, and now some girl has it and somehow found him in the most remote corner that only he knows about. And then all he does in two films is create a distraction across the universe and then die. As I said before, they got Mark Hamill, why not get him to play Luke?

This is a cheap card to play, but Mark Hamill thinks this character wasn't Luke.


----------



## Church2224

wankerness said:


> Seriously - what would have made these three plotlines
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> (Snoke/Rey's parents/Luke)
> 
> 
> good to you, and how would they have been better/smarter than what we got? Yes, all three subverted expectations. Here, I'm going to give an explanation of why I think all three are good. I would love to hear a detailed response to my #3.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1) I was more than happy with Snoke being disposed of, partly because it would have been lame if they'd aped the Emperor formula from ESB/ROTJ with him being the ultimate baddy, and partly because Kylo Ren is a vastly more interesting villain and having him take over opens up a lot more interesting possibilities than keeping him in the Vader bulldog position.
> 
> 2) I was so relieved that Rey wasn't Kylo Ren's twin, as everyone was predicting through the first movie. It couldn't have been more predictable and it was a real relief having a main character that actually stands alone from the others. As the movie is largely about not repeating the sins and failures of parents/elders, it also makes her fierce commitment to friends and new family her most important trait. It's good. Who did you want to be her parents??
> 
> 3) Luke was the same flawed human he was in the OT! Seriously, the guy was an impetuous hothead, he'd cooled off by ROTJ, but he still was going counter to the Jedi teachings by freaking out against Vader when the Leia bait came. Here, he made a horrible mistake for a SPLIT SECOND at some point in the past. The movie is very, very specific that he had visions that Ben was going to cause the death of millions, and he reflexively turned on his lightsaber, instantly changed his mind, but it was already too late as Ben had woken up, and bam. Everyone died. It's not surprising he went off alone after that one. What did you want, did you want Kylo Ren to have had nothing to do with Luke, Luke to be in happy friendly mode, Luke to immediately zoom back to help everyone in the what, 12 hours the entire movie takes place in? In fact, if he HAD been there, he would have bombed at the same thing he did as when three thousand lasers trained on him he would have been blown into the dirt. GG. He still saved the day, he did so in a really clever manner, and none of what he did would have worked if he'd physically been there. I'm not sure how else he could have basically defeated that entire invasion force. The ONLY thing I didn't like about what they did with him was having him die suddenly at the end, only because it seemed perfunctory. His last lines with Leia were still great.
> 
> 
> 
> What did you want him to do?
> 
> 
> 
> This is mindblowing to me. Why on earth should they have copied crap from novels or TV shows or whatever??? Why would that have improved anything? Do people really want to see more adaptations and retreads and things that don't dare to even SLIGHTLY step outside what's come before? The fact I'm saying this about a Star Wars movie that features numerous returning characters from the OT makes it especially sad. You really just wanted a straight adaptation of those Timothy Zahn books instead of something new?
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they won't, cause you're not 10 years old anymore.



I am not saying a straight adaptation, but the whole expanded universe had so much good writing and creativity to it, that they could have used so much from it. Yes, the Last Jedi is NEW , but NEW does not mean GOOD. Or at least executed well. 

And after seeing a 93% Rating on Rotten Tomatoes and all of the hype I was expect a movie to blow me away, not make me feel like I wasted almost 3 hours of my life. The main issues I have with this film are many issues I have with most movies these days. Good ideas, poor execution. So much could have been done better, but was not.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

I remember saying to myself that after watching TLJ, that this movie would shake up if not break the very foundations of what made fanboys like about Star Wars. And I love that. 

Let's face it, was Star Wars really sacrosanct to begin with? We all know that the movies turned southbound when Lucas decided Return Of The Jedi was going to be a toy commercial. And I love how many Star Wars fanboys felt betrayed by TLJ. What, the remastered trilogy wasn't already bad? The 1 2 prequel punch weren't enough disappointment? Were the 2 Ewok spin off movies not enough of a shameful footnote to talk about? Were all the non movie lore being declared non canon too low a blow? Isn't the fact that the bad of Star Wars still largely outweigh the good if you really be honest about the franchise too hard to admit?

The problem with The Force Awakens (and to some extent Rogue One) being "safe Star Wars films" to pander to the fans, is that it doesn't leave room for the franchise to grow. The movie makers are forced to pander to the demands of the loud fanboys constantly yearning to re-experience the original trilogy. Fans got that pandering directly after TPM with Attack of the Clones a movie full of pandering, and one of the many reasons it's the worst Star Wars movie to date. 

I will say that The Force Awakens does a great job of setting up what The Last Jedi brings down. It's the poignant level of disappointment that was similarly tackled in Logan.



Spoiler



The new cast isn't just the next gen of of-beats of Luke, Han, Vader etc. They're flawed humans and that's what makes characters far more interesting. Poe Dameron is the hot shot who's own cocky hubris gives him costly mistake after another. Kylo Ren and Hux are once again the personifications of angry fanboys more than ever: young snot nosed wannabes of their predecessors, but the former shows how power can make a character like that a real threat. Finn gets a perfunctory subplot... ok that's on the movie's end.  Rey's parents were nothing more than nobodies that really shakes up the tired destiny trope (that funny enough is used well in the Star Wars prequels). And Luke falling from grace is a great take on the character, especially that the Jedi have a history of making fatal mistakes that even Luke himself drew attention on.



It's the sort of deconstruction of that frees Star Wars to new avenues to whatever false expectations on what a Star Wars movie should be. I've said it earlier that it's not going to get better now that Solo: A Star Wars movie is in all sorts of dire trouble and JJ Abrams returning for Ep.IX almost mirroring Empire to Return kind of back step (but I really Abrams and co to prove me wrong...).


----------



## setsuna7

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I remember saying to myself that after watching TLJ, that this movie would shake up if not break the very foundations of what made fanboys like about Star Wars. And I love that.
> 
> Let's face it, was Star Wars really sacrosanct to begin with? We all know that the movies turned southbound when Lucas decided Return Of The Jedi was going to be a toy commercial. And I love how many Star Wars fanboys felt betrayed by TLJ. What, the remastered trilogy wasn't already bad? The 1 2 prequel punch weren't enough disappointment? Were the 2 Ewok spin off movies not enough of a shameful footnote to talk about? Were all the non movie lore being declared non canon too low a blow? Isn't the fact that the bad of Star Wars still largely outweigh the good if you really be honest about the franchise too hard to admit?
> 
> The problem with The Force Awakens (and to some extent Rogue One) being "safe Star Wars films" to pander to the fans, is that it doesn't leave room for the franchise to grow. The movie makers are forced to pander to the demands of the loud fanboys constantly yearning to re-experience the original trilogy. Fans got that pandering directly after TPM with Attack of the Clones a movie full of pandering, and one of the many reasons it's the worst Star Wars movie to date.
> 
> I will say that The Force Awakens does a great job of setting up what The Last Jedi brings down. It's the poignant level of disappointment that was similarly tackled in Logan.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The new cast isn't just the next gen of of-beats of Luke, Han, Vader etc. They're flawed humans and that's what makes characters far more interesting. Poe Dameron is the hot shot who's own cocky hubris gives him costly mistake after another. Kylo Ren and Hux are once again the personifications of angry fanboys more than ever: young snot nosed wannabes of their predecessors, but the former shows how power can make a character like that a real threat. Finn gets a perfunctory subplot... ok that's on the movie's end.  Rey's parents were nothing more than nobodies that really shakes up the tired destiny trope (that funny enough is used well in the Star Wars prequels). And Luke falling from grace is a great take on the character, especially that the Jedi have a history of making fatal mistakes that even Luke himself drew attention on.
> 
> 
> 
> It's the sort of deconstruction of that frees Star Wars to new avenues to whatever false expectations on what a Star Wars movie should be. I've said it earlier that it's not going to get better now that Solo: A Star Wars movie is in all sorts of dire trouble and JJ Abrams returning for Ep.IX almost mirroring Empire to Return kind of back step (but I really Abrams and co to prove me wrong...).



I agree with you. The way they take the plot is a great way of saying "fuck you" to them fanboys/theories.


Spoiler



I've heard my friends saying that a Jedi can't do that or this (or whatever the fuck they read in the Expanded Universe; which is now not canon anymore). I love how Rian Johnson explored how the Force is used or can be used(as what Luke did or explained it to Rey in the film) during the final battle etc etc. That Jedi are a bunch hypocrites and it is hubris that blinded them to rise of Sidious right under their nose. How Leia used it, how Ben Solo turned on Snoke and used Rey. I fuckin' love that. This is how the franchise can grow. Leave the past behind.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I saw the same movie as StevenC, not sure what movie others saw.

I think it's poor characterisation and average story telling coupled with some high points, but some massive gaping holes that just eat the continuity alive.

I know Disney made the old 'expanded universe' non canonical, but still there were much better stories there than there are here and ones that fit in so much better with what came before.


----------



## wankerness

StevenC said:


> I'd like to have cared about the characters.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Snoke seduces Ben to the darkside, is shown to be really powerful and Luke was scared of him. Oh, he's dead? Right. So the Emperor's successor just existed so that there could be some other bad guy? Now I don't care about that guy, and I'm not scared of anyone he left behind because he was disposed of so easily. Takes everything out of it, and now Ben has no motivation.
> 
> I've spent the last two years not caring about Rey's character because she's boring. The one bit of intrigue is who she is and why Luke/Anakin's lightsaber cares who she is. So, maybe the point is that she's nobody. But if she's nobody, what's the point of her having a connection to the lightsaber? It removes any value of her being nobody, because now she's somebody. But we likely won't get that whole thing explained. I don't care if she's Luke's kid or Leia's kid or another force kid, just that the only value of her being a nobody is to piss off everyone who wanted to know who she was, which was speculation designed into the movies.
> 
> The whole point of the first 6 movies was that both the Jedi and Sith were wrong. The Jedi order wasn't a force for good and was very narrow minded. Luke realised this because two Jedi were manipulating him to murder his father. Anakin realised this because none of the Jedi lived up to the standards they set for him. Luke's whole thing was that he'd do anything to save his friends and family, like walking into a trap in Ep V. Anakin would do anything to save Padme. In this, Luke was some prick who didn't care about his friends or family, and saw value in the Jedi Order. I wanted Luke to be out there for some good reason, but he just abandoned his friends to wait for death. Yoda's in hiding and acting all weird as a test to Luke and trick the audience. In this, Luke's just a prick until for no reason he changes his mind. He's cut himself off from the force for no reason. Also, he left a map for some reason despite saying he didn't want to be found. Also, this is Luke the Jedi. Even if he's not a practising Jedi anymore, he still believes in it and knows as much as anybody about it. You can't tell me Luke the Jedi, who saw the prophecy play out in front of him, would react that way when faced with that lightsaber finding its way back to him. He dropped it 30+ years ago in another part of the galaxy, and now some girl has it and somehow found him in the most remote corner that only he knows about. And then all he does in two films is create a distraction across the universe and then die. As I said before, they got Mark Hamill, why not get him to play Luke?
> 
> This is a cheap card to play, but Mark Hamill thinks this character wasn't Luke.



Well, thanks for responding with detail. I guess we just fundamentally disagree on serious levels!

1) Well, I like Kylo Ren, I guess if you don't we can't help that!
2) I REALLY like Rey and find her interesting, I guess if you don't we can't help that either!
3)


Spoiler



You really don't think causing the deaths or turning to the dark side of all 12 of his Jedis in training wasn't a good reason to have isolated himself?! If not, I guess this one's a fundamental disagreement too!



Seems like based on you three that the more diehard you are and the less open you are to anything that's different, the less you like this. Soooo...this is a funny reversal from the whole bunch of people who hated Force Awakens cause "IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS STAR WARS A NEW HOPE."

Well, either that, or it's simply anyone who went in with specific expectations was pissed.


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> Well, thanks for responding with detail. I guess we just fundamentally disagree on serious levels!
> 
> 1) Well, I like Kylo Ren, I guess if you don't we can't help that!
> 2) I REALLY like Rey and find her interesting, I guess if you don't we can't help that either!
> 3)
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> You really don't think causing the deaths or turning to the dark side of all 12 of his Jedis in training wasn't a good reason to have isolated himself?! If not, I guess this one's a fundamental disagreement too!
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like based on you three that the more diehard you are and the less open you are to anything that's different, the less you like this. Soooo...this is a funny reversal from the whole bunch of people who hated Force Awakens cause "IT'S EXACTLY THE SAME AS STAR WARS A NEW HOPE."
> 
> Well, either that, or it's simply anyone who went in with specific expectations was pissed.





Spoiler



I feel like he could have hid away forever after fixing the problem that only he could solve. The other possibility is he thought another Jedi would appear to fix the problem, but also he's the only one who could train them.



I didn't like The Force Awakens, because it was the same movie as A New Hope. My grievance with The Last Jedi wasn't that it wasn't enough like Empire Strikes Back, or something, because I've written out a list of bits that were borrowed from all the other films. My problem was that it didn't feel like it was a Star Wars movie in the same universe as all the others. One seemed like an unoriginal Star Wars, the other felt like bad fan fiction.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

StevenC said:


> My problem was that it didn't feel like it was a Star Wars movie in the same universe as all the others.



This. There seemed like a big disconnect between this latest movie and the movies of the original trilogy (and even the prequel trilogy), from the settings to the physics to "the way the force works"...


----------



## protest

I think this one will grow on people. It was so un Star Wars like that everyone's natural reaction is to hate it, somewhat ironic considering people ragged on the last one for not being original enough.


----------



## protest

_MonSTeR_ said:


> This. There seemed like a big disconnect between this latest movie and the movies of the original trilogy (and even the prequel trilogy), from the settings to the physics to "the way the force works"...



I don't really think there's a disconnect, it's just different. I also think the way the force works is no different than what was put forth in the originals. In fact the whole "the force is not a power controlled by the Jedi" scene is a direct knock on the prequels and is another attempt of getting more in line with the originals.

The disconnect is with the prequels because they were largely garbage and we all hate most things about them asides from III, Qui gon, and Darth Maul.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

protest said:


> I don't really think there's a disconnect, it's just different.



And that difference *is* the disconnect 

The other thing I don't like, which is completely off topic and isn't a spoiler because it dates back to The Force Awakens, is the way the new X-Wings engines seem to split into 2 whereas the X-Wings from the originals seemed to have 4 separate engines, because they "borrowed" jet engine imagery and so had circular compressors implied.


----------



## protest

_MonSTeR_ said:


> And that difference *is* the disconnect
> 
> The other thing I don't like, which is completely off topic and isn't a spoiler because it dates back to The Force Awakens, is the way the new X-Wings engines seem to split into 2 whereas the X-Wings from the originals seemed to have 4 separate engines, because they "borrowed" jet engine imagery and so had circular compressors implied.



Yeah but c'mon you have to do something a little different! I liked that TFA was so familiar. It felt like home after the "disconnect" that was most of the prequels .

This is a way different feel and a weird movie. I like a lot of the weird stuff, but I honestly need to see it again to figure out if I liked it as a whole lol. On first watch my gut says it does different Star Wars much better than I or II did.


----------



## StevenC

protest said:


> Yeah but c'mon you have to do something a little different! I liked that TFA was so familiar. It felt like home after the "disconnect" that was most of the prequels .
> 
> This is a way different feel and a weird movie. I like a lot of the weird stuff, but I honestly need to see it again to figure out if I liked it as a whole lol. On first watch my gut says it does different Star Wars much better than I or II did.


Why are you rating this film based on disliking I or II?


----------



## protest

StevenC said:


> Why are you rating this film based on disliking I or II?



...I'm not...


----------



## StevenC

protest said:


> ...I'm not...


Apologies! I misread "need to see it again" as "don't need to see it again" somehow.


----------



## mongey

me and the wife have been going over it since seeing it on Friday. Think I really need a 2nd viewing to know how i really feel about it . I still rate it as good but not great

things I am iffy on



Spoiler



the whole training montage with Luke and Rey missed the mark for me . it wasn't engaging at all .it didn't carry the weight I thought it should

Snoke - character wise I thought he was good, but we knew so little about him that when Kylo kills him it just didn't matter .

the Kiss with Finn - um yeah. whatever . that just happened.

Finn in general. I just don't really care that much 

Captain phasma - well the character live up to the terrible name. why did they even bother getting a good actor to play her if it was also going no where


----------



## protest

Delete


----------



## wankerness

I think this one's going to age well with people who were put off realizing its strengths over time. This will be the opposite of TFA, where it seemed everyone loved it at first and over the next several months tons of people turned on it.


----------



## protest

wankerness said:


> I think this one's going to age well with people who were put off realizing its strengths over time. This will be the opposite of TFA, where it seemed everyone loved it at first and over the next several months tons of people turned on it.



I said the same to my buddy. There are so many cool things in this movie that I think over time it might out weigh the non star wars feel of it, and the cheese moments. But idk, I'm not cool enough to dislike TFA so what do I know lol.




mongey said:


> me and the wife have been going over it since seeing it on Friday. Think I really need a 2nd viewing to know how i really feel about it . I still rate it as good but not great
> 
> things I am iffy on
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the whole training montage with Luke and Rey missed the mark for me . it wasn't engaging at all .it didn't carry the weight I thought it should
> 
> Snoke - character wise I thought he was good, but we knew so little about him that when Kylo kills him it just didn't matter .
> 
> the Kiss with Finn - um yeah. whatever . that just happened.
> 
> Finn in general. I just don't really care that much
> 
> Captain phasma - well the character live up to the terrible name. why did they even bother getting a good actor to play her if it was also going no where



To your point, I think the biggest issue with this trilogy is there are too many characters. The originals had Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, the droids, and Vader as the central characters. Then Yoda, Obi Won, the Emporer, Lando and Tarkin mixed in.

This has all the same central characters minus Vader but adding Rey, Poe, Finn, Kylo, BB8, Hux, Snoke, the new girl, Phasma, etc. It's like they tried to improve upon the originals by saying Boba Fett was just some guy that looked awesome, never talked and had no story so we'll give our Boba Fett a story, and then you realize there's not enough damn time to do that, so it all just
feels kind of forced and half assed.


----------



## Quiet Coil

The wife wants to see it again so I’ll probably give it one more shot, but...


Spoiler



...the character arc for both Kylo and Rey was obliterated with the reveal that Snoke was behind their special connection all along followed by his immediate death. Cheap and pointless. I could live with the rest of the lame characters added ultimately for no reason, but just as I started to find Kylo interesting BLAM he’s another mustache twirling boring villain. By the time the credits rolled I found myself not caring for a single remaining character- kind of a problem for the middle of a trilogy, no?



All of that said I really want to like it. I can almost believe that JJ could salvage the situation with 9 given the right script, but I’m definitely not holding my breath.



Spoiler



I’d even be fine with Luke’s arc (awkward alien milking aside) if I gave two bits about the people or cause that he sacrificed himself for.


----------



## protest

Noisy Humbucker said:


> The wife wants to see it again so I’ll probably give it one more shot, but...
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ...the character arc for both Kylo and Rey was obliterated with the reveal that Snoke was behind their special connection all along followed by his immediate death. Cheap and pointless. I could live with the rest of the lame characters added ultimately for no reason, but just as I started to find Kylo interesting BLAM he’s another mustache twirling boring villain. By the time the credits rolled I found myself not caring for a single remaining character- kind of a problem for the middle of a trilogy, no?





Spoiler



Really? I don't see that at all. He's unlike any other villain in the franchise. The most similar thing would be Anakin at the very end of III, but played out longer rather than diving headfirst into a lightsaber fight. I think, particularly in this movie, he's the complete opposite of a boring villain. The mind connection scenes between he and Rey are the best non action scenes of the movie (maybe best in general....but then, ramming something at light speed ). And the throne room scene had you saying which way is this going, redemption or master killing apprentice? It was pretty much a toss up, which means the character was not your standard villain. 

I'm not sure that Snoke creating their connection taint's it really because IIRC they're both shocked by it when it first happens, and not Ren reaching out to her. Also it lingers after Snoke's gone. I think it would have been cooler if it was just because they read each other's minds, but then we'd have fellow geeks saying that tons of minds have been read without there being any link.

Also, the more I think about it the more I like that Snoke dies in this one. The end of IX would have been way too predictable. It would have been the throne room scene and it would have been redemption. Where it went wrong is there probably could have been more done with Snoke rather than trying to fit in Finn and the new girl.


----------



## TedEH

I don't think there's anything this movie could have done to satisfy anyone who went in wanting something specific. I saw it without having looked up reviews or anyone's opinions ahead of time, and I liked it. Was entertained. Lots of visually striking scenes. Lightsabers. Action scenes were really badass. None of the dialog was cringe-y in either the writing or the delivery. New things being done with the force, while still keeping some level of mystery to it. There was never a point where I could easily predict what was going to happen next. I dig what they did with Luke. I dig what they did with Snoke.

I get why everyone has to tear it to shreds for not being *their* idea of what Star Wars is, but it's not a bad movie by any stretch. I'd hate to be someone working on that franchise right now, knowing that it doesn't matter how good the work you're doing is, it's going to get ripped to shreds by the internet mob wearing nostalgia glasses.


----------



## wankerness

Right. It's a pretty good MOVIE and thus the critics who have to watch hundreds of them a year love it, it apparently doesn't adhere to "GOOD STAR WARS MOVIE," whatever that means, so the SW lynch mob is out in full force. I am seeing these guys' reasons for disliking it, and my mind is just kind of blown cause I can't understand it. I can't remember any example of ever going into something and being mad about a character not doing what my idea of the character would do, or it not having "the right" kind of humor (well...I guess my first viewing of a South Korean movie might have been like that since they throw slapstick into really dark movies), or not setting up the same character arcs for the third movie that I thought it should. It's probably happened at some point, not saying they're nuts or anything, I'm just really confounded by the whole thing!

I, too, am not cool enough to hate TFA. I LOVED the new characters and thought it was wildly entertaining and I've watched it a couple times on blu-ray and like it just as much every time. I think this one might end up being "richer." The casino stuff is garbage, but then again, TFA had stuff like the scottish guy boarding the Falcon and getting chased around by a tentacle monster that didn't end up ruining the movie for me at all. And the same kind of "slapstick" humor in that one works like gangbusters. My favorite "joke" in the first one is when those stormtroopers hear Kylo Ren destroying the room and tiptoe away, just like my favorite one in this one is


Spoiler



Ren tossing Hux into the wall towards the end.


----------



## StevenC

More interestingly



Spoiler



Does anyone understand how this film works chronologically? From what I can tell the film seems to all take place the day after TFA. The old base gets evacuated and blown up shortly after Rey leaves. They then introduce relativity to Star Wars for the first time, because Rey has those Force chats with Kylo across days in Jediland, but across only 18 hours for everyone else. Have I missed something?


----------



## protest

StevenC said:


> More interestingly
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Does anyone understand how this film works chronologically? From what I can tell the film seems to all take place the day after TFA. The old base gets evacuated and blown up shortly after Rey leaves. They then introduce relativity to Star Wars for the first time, because Rey has those Force chats with Kylo across days in Jediland, but across only 18 hours for everyone else. Have I missed something?





Spoiler



I have no idea, but I think it was only a couple days. I think the 18 hours of fuel thing came in after it had been a couple days, and that it follows Empire in that sense. Luke is with Yoda for a few days while they're sitting in the asteroid field and cloud city.


----------



## protest

I've been trying to explain the movie and what I thought to my buddy all day without any spoilers, and then he found this review which I think sums up where I'm at with it.



> “The Skywalker legacy continues with sharply executed style, excellent looking visuals, some fleeting substance, and a return to the galaxy far, far away that relentlessly misses the mark but ultimately makes up for its shortcomings as the movie progresses into darker, more subversive territory. Does it ultimately deliver? Yes. But, The Last Jedi is flawed and nearly unremarkable in many ways. Much like the first in this new trilogy, there's a lot that's right and a whole lot that's wrong. Coming from a guy that experienced A New Hope in theaters back in '77 when it was just plain old Star Wars, there's just a certain spark that seems to be missing here.
> 
> 
> Rian Johnson directs his first entry in the Star Wars universe with The Last Jedi. Distinctly different than the repetitive nature of JJ Abrams The Force Awakens, this latest film is the most unfocused of the entire series that takes nearly an hour of middling slog to finally establish some focus and that old school Star Wars energy. Character development is lost at the cost of injecting as many new cuddly beings as audiences are sadly treated to politically charged side stories about a casino planet that's a hive of scum and villainy for weapons dealers. We had enough politics with the prequels. Here, it doesn't fit and should have been cut altogether. At a run time of two and a half hours, there is plenty that didn't need to be seen or added for padding the run length of the project.
> 
> 
> Luckily enough though, once it gets down to its real purpose, things find shape and a huge new expansion of the universe takes place. Where Abrams relied heavily on the nostalgia factor, Johnson's spin on the galaxy makes long strides to find some creative momentum in a saga that's extended for decades. Taking a look at this movie as a whole, Star Wars fans in general are going to rally behind the returning classic characters but will definitely find issue with Johnson's maligned vision in many areas of the final product. Please don't get me wrong, I liked The Last Jedi well enough but it plays like a long winded movie that would be part of The Expanded Universe that doesn't quite understand the heart of what made the classics so loved.
> 
> 
> Perhaps the most interesting things about The Last Jedi are the new ways the Force is used, the kinetic connection between Rey and Kylo, the introduction of a new planet, and an old Luke Skywalker that's not so sure about where he belongs anymore. Even with all the good that seems to kick off somewhere around the middle of the second act, there are some definite miscalculated devices with side stories, misled plot devices, and way too many CGI based creatures. Much like Attack of the Clones, Johnson's feature debut in this franchise spends too much time focused on things that just don't need to be there. In the long run, I honestly feel that The Force Awakens is a stronger entry that delivers far more in the way of establishing this trilogy.
> 
> 
> If you're looking for mysteries to be solved with TLJ, go in knowing it doesn't happen. Many of the things we've discussed relentlessly on message boards, social media, and other communal places like Reddit are left with absolutely no answer. Unlike the moments in The Empire Strikes Back where we learned of Luke's familial line, Johnson gives us a large platter of nothing. The one real saving grace (as you probably guessed) of this movie is the return of Luke Skywalker. Mark Hamill is an absolute delight to see back on screen by giving us an older, more grizzled Jedi in hiding. With some other cool little cameos, Johnson does pull off some semblance of a Star Wars movie, but I truly think there was some serious studio toiling with the final cut.
> 
> 
> This is going to read like a laundry list of reasons to hate this movie. Please don't take it that way. I'm a huge fan of this universe and always will be. The Last Jedi will find its audience. It will have a large support system of megafans. I wanted to be that guy too. But I'm not. It's definitely worth a re-watch that might infuse more love in me. As of now, this critic is on the fence with this science fiction fantasy crossbreed. It was nice seeing Carrie Fisher gracing the screen one last time as Leia. And the small tributes to the original trilogy were a warm welcome. Maybe Abrams can get this back on even footing by the third and final outing.
> 
> 
> As we expected, the full trailer was all misdirection that luckily works to The Last Jedi's advantage. See this movie but know that you might not like some of what you see.”


----------



## wankerness

protest said:


> I've been trying to explain the movie and what I thought to my buddy all day without any spoilers, and then he found this review which I think sums up where I'm at with it.



I'm getting sick of reading reviews from people who first prove their credentials about how they saw one of the originals in the theater or have grown up spam watching them their whole life and take everything about the OT really seriously, etc. I THOUGHT I was something of a fanboy (throughout my childhood I played all the crummy video games, even Rebel Assault I repeatedly, I still have boxes full of the action figures, and I read tons of the fan novels, even crummy ones like Tales of the Bounty Hunters), but this movie is proving that to not be the case!! What is REALLY bizarre to me is how pissed off they all are and how personally they're taking it and how much time some seem to be spending posting about their hate. Was it like this with the prequels?! I was a teenager at the time of the first's release and was on the internet plenty for the follow-ups, but I didn't hang out on the right kind of message boards that had anything other than "don't waste your time, go watch some Tarkovsky."

"Doesn't understand the heart" and crap like this - what is that?! I guess that's why they have to start reviews with I SAW IT WHEN I WAS A LITTLE KID. Trying to prove their expectations are what's important and that anything else is not "real" Star Wars. This entitlement is nuts! Say you don't like it, sure. Say it's NOT REAL STAR WARS or THIS ISN'T LUKE and that you know what real Star Wars is, get a grip!!


----------



## bostjan

Ok, I finally saw it.

I think it was a much better than average Star Wars film, but good God there were a lot of stupid stupid stupid little plot holes.

Rey was more relatable in this one, and Kylo was much better, IMO, the best character so far. I found myself routing for Finn, and I even related to Poe a little. The characters were good, and their character arcs okay, but after hearing so much about how great it was, I was expecting just a little more character development, just a little more drama, just a tiny bit more action and a lot more plot.

I think if I wasn't really paying attention, I would have liked it a lot better, but just so many details were a miss, none of them huge, but I'd say plenty are not insignificant enough to be annoying, and for me, it all added up to demonstrate sloppy storytelling.



Spoiler



1. Kylo's custom made ship was just destroyed a day or two ago on Starkiller base, but yet he's flying it again?
2. Snoke is powerful enough to toss Rey, the second most powerful being in the galaxy, around the room like a rag doll, yet is oblivious to Kylo killing him, while he's reading his thoughts, none the less?
3. Why does someone need to stay behind to pilot a ship that is certain to be destroyed? (Yet earlier in the movie, a bomber completed its mission successfully with a dead pilot) also, this really bothers me for stupidity's sake, but bombs in deep space falling down. Deep space. Falling down. SMH.
4. How the fuck did hundreds of people fit on the millennium falcon?
5. Why did Luke project a hologram with a lightsaber we just saw get broken, and why was Kylo too stupid to see it?
6. How did they get Rose out of the base after being seriously wounded? Also, Finn screaming for a medic when all of the medics were already dead or otherwise trying not to become immediately dead?
7. The First Order seriously never thought to send a ship ahead of the rebel fleet to cut them off? This is the stupidest bit, for me. The film never mentions that it's the last of the fleet or anything like that, so just have one or two destroyers jump in from wherever.
8. Poe's trick at the beginning to stall for time was asinine.
9. Why did Snoke's guards fight Kylo and Rey? What would be their motivation in that? Seems dumb to me, but I guess it doesn't matter other than that it was an excuse for the second coolest fight scene.
10. So Benicio del Torro's character was working for the First Order the whole time, so why return the medallion? If he switched sides, then why stay locked up when it was so easy for him to escape the casino prison? I know he's a mcguffin, but this was mildly annoying.
11. This is the littlest thing of all, but why doesn't even one person in the film acknowledge that Leia just totally used incredible force powers to survive being blown up and drifting through space? Ok, she needed to survive, and wow, she's had the force all these years- awesome! But someone please react to it.
13. The biggest thing for me was just how stupid the general plot frame was around the overall conflict. Try explaining the plot of this movie in four sentences without sounding stupid. If Hux is so inept, why doesn't Snoke or Kylo just fire him? He's literally the most foolish and ignorant character in the film, yet he's the one controlling the First Order's strategic movements.


----------



## Quiet Coil

To all the people who were genuinely touched by the movie and are defending it- I’m sincerely happy you enjoyed it as much as you did.

That said, this bickering reminds me of when I defended The Dark Knight Rises to my friends. I still like TDKR and no one is going to convince me differently, but if I came across this “butthurt” (man that word is annoying) I must say I’m a little embarrassed.

EDIT: Aaaannd now I sound like a condescending prick. So much for staying out of it.


----------



## protest

bostjan said:


> Ok, I finally saw it.
> 
> I think it was a much better than average Star Wars film, but good God there were a lot of stupid stupid stupid little plot holes.
> 
> Rey was more relatable in this one, and Kylo was much better, IMO, the best character so far. I found myself routing for Finn, and I even related to Poe a little. The characters were good, and their character arcs okay, but after hearing so much about how great it was, I was expecting just a little more character development, just a little more drama, just a tiny bit more action and a lot more plot.
> 
> I think if I wasn't really paying attention, I would have liked it a lot better, but just so many details were a miss, none of them huge, but I'd say plenty are not insignificant enough to be annoying, and for me, it all added up to demonstrate sloppy storytelling.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Kylo's custom made ship was just destroyed a day or two ago on Starkiller base, but yet he's flying it again? Did we see the ship get destroyed, I don't remember?
> 2. Snoke is powerful enough to toss Rey, the second most powerful being in the galaxy, around the room like a rag doll, yet is oblivious to Kylo killing him, while he's reading his thoughts, none the less? He's seeing it, but doesn't realize it's the other lightsaber. Too Arrogant maybe? They set up the arrogance with the "I can't be defeated"?
> 3. Why does someone need to stay behind to pilot a ship that is certain to be destroyed? (Yet earlier in the movie, a bomber completed its mission successfully with a dead pilot) also, this really bothers me for stupidity's sake, but bombs in deep space falling down. Deep space. Falling down. SMH. The bomber scene bothered me a lot, as did Leia. I also said, "I guess they don't have autopilot", but it also leads to the ramming of something at light speed, so it wasn't all bad
> 4. How the fuck did hundreds of people fit on the millennium falcon? There were only dozens left I believe. They said 400 earlier but that was before things started getting blown up.
> 5. Why did Luke project a hologram with a lightsaber we just saw get broken, and why was Kylo too stupid to see it? Was it the same? Luke didn't know it was broken, but it should have been the green one.
> 6. How did they get Rose out of the base after being seriously wounded? Also, Finn screaming for a medic when all of the medics were already dead or otherwise trying not to become immediately dead? That one is pretty simple, they carried her on the stretcher thing, plus there were probably medics alive. They were evacuating the ships before they were destroyed.
> 7. The First Order seriously never thought to send a ship ahead of the rebel fleet to cut them off? This is the stupidest bit, for me. The film never mentions that it's the last of the fleet or anything like that, so just have one or two destroyers jump in from wherever. The idea behind this was that the rebel ships were faster I believe. The whole point was that the fighters wouldn't venture outside of the range of the star destroyers, and the rebel ships were maintaining a speed that kept them out of range.
> 8. Poe's trick at the beginning to stall for time was asinine. I liked it because it kind of carried over the "who talks first" bit from TFA, but it went on for too long.
> 9. Why did Snoke's guards fight Kylo and Rey? What would be their motivation in that? Seems dumb to me, but I guess it doesn't matter other than that it was an excuse for the second coolest fight scene. Their motivation would be that Ren was a traitor.
> 10. So Benicio del Torro's character was working for the First Order the whole time, so why return the medallion? If he switched sides, then why stay locked up when it was so easy for him to escape the casino prison? I know he's a mcguffin, but this was mildly annoying. I think he switched sides, but the whole casino code breaker plot was
> unnecessary and awful.
> 11. This is the littlest thing of all, but why doesn't even one person in the film acknowledge that Leia just totally used incredible force powers to survive being blown up and drifting through space? Ok, she needed to survive, and wow, she's had the force all these years- awesome! But someone please react to it. Did anyone actually see it? I can't remember. There's also the chance that they've seen her do stuff before. We've known that she's had it since RoTJ.
> 13. The biggest thing for me was just how stupid the general plot frame was around the overall conflict. Try explaining the plot of this movie in four sentences without sounding stupid. If Hux is so inept, why doesn't Snoke or Kylo just fire him? He's literally the most foolish and ignorant character in the film, yet he's the one controlling the First Order's strategic movements. Didn't Snoke say somethign about getting the most out of him by motivating him certain ways? I mean he did blow up like 3 planets in the last movie.



I've attempted to ease your annoyance a little. Let me know if it works or just makes you angrier.


----------



## synrgy

Saw it Saturday. Thought it was near-perfect. As per usual, a lot of the things I'm seeing people reference as 'plot holes', aren't.

Take, for instance, one of bostjan's beefs:



Spoiler



Regarding the bombs 'falling':

A motor situated on the top of the bomb racks pushes the entire stack down toward the bomb bay door, then the bombs have velocity to continue through the space in between the bomber and the target. There’s no atmosphere to slow them down, and the battle cruiser's mass would also help pull the bombs toward it.

Not to mention that these are basically movies about _space wizards_. Lighten up.


----------



## mongey

protest said:


> To your point, I think the biggest issue with this trilogy is there are too many characters. The originals had Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, the droids, and Vader as the central characters. Then Yoda, Obi Won, the Emporer, Lando and Tarkin mixed in.
> 
> This has all the same central characters minus Vader but adding Rey, Poe, Finn, Kylo, BB8, Hux, Snoke, the new girl, Phasma, etc. It's like they tried to improve upon the originals by saying Boba Fett was just some guy that looked awesome, never talked and had no story so we'll give our Boba Fett a story, and then you realize there's not enough damn time to do that, so it all just
> feels kind of forced and half assed.



yeah . to me those original central characters are star wars I guess .I'm a dinosaur and I admit it. I just don't feel the same affinity for the new characters at all. I grew up with the originals . yes I saw it all with different ewes when I was a kid. of course I did . the originals have plenty of flaws that have been forgiven and overlooked as I got older because the movies meant so much to me as a kid

I will always see, and hopefully enjoy, every star wars movie that comes but this one makes me realize I will never feel the same way about the new ones. they are part of my DNA and it is never going to be recreated in the same way

The 3 prequels were easy to write off as they were complete shite . this generation of movies is way better than those turds

I really enjoyed rogue one .I think because while still in the same universe and closely related it was also detached from everything else.I didn't measure it to the same standard

I am reserving my final judgement on the last Jedi after a re watch with fresh eyes. I still think it was a good star wars movie, better than TFA which I liked on the 1st viewing but didn't think so much of on my re watch


----------



## wankerness

I think if the third movie sticks the landing (I won't be surprised if it doesn't, considering it's getting switched to a different writer), that the movie might retroactively feel better, too.


----------



## synrgy

^Yeah, I'm definitely reserving _some_ judgments until 9 is in the can.



Spoiler



While I've read statements from Johnson that he didn't _write _Kylo's reveal of Rey's parentage as a red herring, I'm A) not really convinced by that, and B) recognize that JJ is steering the next one. I don't think we've heard the last on the subject, and until we do, I won't really know how I feel about it. That said, I admit that I'm _presently_ feeling a bit miffed about it, because if she's 'nobody', then I have a hard time understanding the purpose of the 'flashbacks' she experienced when touching the lightsaber in Ep 7... "It passed from father to son and now it calls _to you_.."


----------



## TheTrooper

Saw it some days ago and I liked it, but I'm the kind of guy that liked all the SW movies (some less than others, yes I II and III ).

I believe we should give our judgment only after 9 is out; to me, this time we need all 3 to get the "all" story (with IV V and VI we knew what was going to happen after the ESB).
But yeah, since the director is not JJ we ended up with plot holes and inconsistency, that hopefully will be addressed and the part(s) of the story that needs clarification will be clarified(?).


----------



## wankerness

If the director had been JJ, I bet we'd have ended up with MORE plot holes and inconsistencies! He has made a career out of them.


----------



## will_shred

Spoiler



I honestly was pretty disappointed by the movie, I didn't like the injection of jokes because to me it totally breaks the tension that makes the origional trilogy great. This isn't guardians of the Galaxy. They once again recreated multiple scenes from the trilogy, sometimes not even changing the fucking lines. Like, could they even TRY to be a little more creative? Oh and the Yoda thing, so now we're injecting ghosts into the film? Because Yoda is just such a badass jedi master he trancends death itself? Righttttttt.



I actually enjoyed The Force Awakens, and I thought Rogue One was awesome. But this was seriously disappointing. I don't know if I will even bother to see episode 9.


----------



## MFB

will_shred said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Oh and the Yoda thing, so now we're injecting ghosts into the film? Because Yoda is just such a badass jedi master he trancends death itself? Righttttttt.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually enjoyed The Force Awakens, and I thought Rogue One was awesome. But this was seriously disappointing. I don't know if I will even bother to see episode 9.





Spoiler



Uh, you might want to go back and see Episode III and VI to see instances where they've explicitly stated or shown that through the Force, you can still communicate after death. When Obi-Wan is leaving for Tattooine, Yoda tells him he'll find a master who has learned to do it and he realizes it's Qui Gon; and for fuck's sake man - Luke is visited by Obi-Wan, Vader, AND Yoda after they're all dead in Return. So that's nothing new.


----------



## synrgy




----------



## wankerness

Seriously, what the hell. You guys may have jumped the shark in terms of finding reasons to hate it for it not being consistent with the old movies.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> Seriously, what the hell. You guys may have jumped the shark in terms of finding reasons to hate it for it not being consistent with the old movies.



At least everything I knocked it for was consistent to just TLJ 

I'm seeing it again tonight and I presume it'll probably get some more credit on re-watch but there's still enough stumbles that I don't see myself giving it higher than an 8.5/10 - which is still great for a movie, but I enjoyed TFA and Rogue One much more (and yes, I know TFA is a new coat of paint on ANH, but it was also a base point for the new trilogy)


----------



## wankerness

I most definitely liked this more than Rogue One. At least I liked most of the characters, particularly the leads. Jin has the charisma of someone from the prequels. And I love that actress in other movies!!


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Man I'm really getting a good laugh at everyone hating on The Last Jedi. Though it's not all that surprising to be honest. 



wankerness said:


> I think if the third movie sticks the landing (I won't be surprised if it doesn't, considering it's getting switched to a different writer), that the movie might retroactively feel better, too.



That different writer is Chris Terrio, who wrote Argo (which won an Oscar for good reason), but at the same time, his collaborative efforts include Batman V Superman and Justice League (oh dear). He's co writing this with Abrams so...



MFB said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Uh, you might want to go back and see Episode III and VI to see instances where they've explicitly stated or shown that through the Force, you can still communicate after death. When Obi-Wan is leaving for Tattooine, Yoda tells him he'll find a master who has learned to do it and he realizes it's Qui Gon; and for fuck's sake man - Luke is visited by Obi-Wan, Vader, AND Yoda after they're all dead in Return. So that's nothing new.







Spoiler



Just to add, all of that seems more ridiculous than Leia using the Force to survive and fly through space in retrospect. And granted this is the one and only time we get to see her using the Force in movies, I'll take that over any ramblings about midichlorians any day of the week.


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



Really? 

Given that the Force is talked about as the balance between order and chaos, the light and the dark, life and death, it seems far more natural/non-suspension of disbelief breaking for it to be used by those who have become a part of it to communicate with those who aren't; versus some ridiculous Last Airbender style space-flight of about 20 feet. If she had used it to simply shield herself in place, then yeah, I would've understood that - but NOT that god awful thing we saw on screen.


----------



## wankerness

Well, the other thing with that is that in "REAL PHYSICS"


Spoiler



you only need the tiniest nudge to go flying off some direction in a vacuum, since there's zero resistance. It's not like she took off from a planet surface and was overcoming gravity, she wasn't essentially using a force jetpack. So, it would have been about as much force as poking a tiny rock.


----------



## synrgy

wankerness said:


> Well, the other thing with that is that in "REAL PHYSICS"..





Spoiler



Also, the ship's own mass would have pulled her toward it.


----------



## mongey

Spoiler



and they fucking killed admrial ackabar and didn't even show it."oh by the way , Ackabar is dead." he's a fan favorite. at least give it some screen time so it has weight.I would've teared up at that shit


----------



## mongey

Spoiler



and can anyone tell me what happened to c3po's red arm ? didn't he still have it at the end of TFA and this movie starts straight after ?


----------



## will_shred

maybe I didn't remember correctly, I remember the ghosts in episode VI but I don't remember them having really involved dialogs, I stand corrected.


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



Watched it again tonight, solidified my belief that everything non-Jedi related is useless and would be better suited as an episode of Rebels. I agree with what they did with Luke, and everything about failure as a teacher, letting the past die, etc... But nothing with the Resistance, at best I'd make an exception for the line of "its all machine parts" about the arms dealers, helped keep the momentum or keep me involved.


----------



## Genome

will_shred said:


> maybe I didn't remember correctly, I remember the ghosts in episode VI but I don't remember them having really involved dialogs, I stand corrected.





Spoiler



Obi-Wan has an extended conversation with Luke, and even tells him he is Leia's brother


----------



## synrgy

Can we maybe all agree that spoiler tags aren't necessary when discussing thirty to forty year old films?


----------



## fps

I can't honestly see how, apart from a bit of a lack of charisma, anyone would be disappointed with the new Star Wars film. It's incredibly Star Wars-y, lots of great action, some good character development, twists and turns, some adorable bits, lots of great little side characters and universe building, not sure you could ask for more.

Interesting to think who fits what in terms of the politics we now live in, and also how seamlessly the merchandise is now built into the whole thing too.


----------



## Manurack

Spoiler alert


----------



## naw38

Ha! I missed that bit on my first viewing. Had to take my daughter to the toilet. Realised on my second viewing how much I appreciate her.


----------



## MFB

Spoiler



Since SSO isn't allowed to link Imgur, enjoy knowing this exists: https://i.imgur.com/0MTqEbJ.jpg


----------



## Blytheryn

Rose is the most puncheable character ever.


----------



## will_shred

why do jedi masters always go into hiding?


----------



## StevenC

will_shred said:


> why do jedi masters always go into hiding?


Because they have bad writers


----------



## synrgy

Because they were being systematically hunted down and murdered?


----------



## Sumsar

will_shred said:


> why do jedi masters always go into hiding?



Becuase the new films are bad copies of the old trilogy?


----------



## Blytheryn

Spoiler



Was anyone a little weirded out by the complete lack of physics in the opening scene? How would that chick survive opening bomb bay doors into the vacuum of space, also, “dropping” bombs in space?

I get that that huge ship would have some of its own gravity, but really?


[/QUOTE]


----------



## synrgy

Blytheryn said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Was anyone a little weirded out by the complete lack of physics in the opening scene? How would that chick survive opening bomb bay doors into the vacuum of space, also, “dropping” bombs in space?
> 
> I get that that huge ship would have some of its own gravity, but really?



It's really not that far fetched. I responded to somebody else asking the same thing on page 8:



Spoiler



Hypothetically: A motor situated on the top of the bomb racks pushes the entire stack down toward the bomb bay door, then the bombs have velocity to continue through the space in between the bomber and the target. There’s no atmosphere to slow them down, and the battle cruiser's mass would also help pull the bombs toward it.

Not mentioned the first time I posted this, but I just remembered that this isn't the first time we've seen bombers in SW. Tie Bombers and Y-Wings were established in the original trilogy. The payload is delivered differently, but the point I'm driving at here is that TLJ wasn't the first time "dropping" bombs in space was conceptualized in SW.

And again, these are movies about _space wizards_. Lighten up.


----------



## Demiurge

Just got back from seeing it. I'm sure thoughts about the more salient plot points will come to me, but some thoughts so far:


Spoiler



So there's a more expanded vocabulary about the force. People are mostly talking about flying Leia and Luke's projection, but I found force-ghost Yoda's summoning lightening to be most interesting. If force-ghosts have powers in the corporeal world, then wouldn't it be great if the ghosts did a little bit more? Especially Anakin as he's got some red in the ledger- he at least owes Kylo a visit and a spectral boot in the ass.

I couldn't help but think, during the latter part of the movie, that if there was a way to re-shoot and CGI it so Leia and Holdo switched places they would've done it. It almost felt like Leia making the sacrifice was the original idea.


----------



## feraledge

Spoiler: I liked Force Awakens and Rogue One, but...



Just wasn't as into this one. Will probably see it again. I liked the darker direction in the two newest ones, but didn't resonate that way here. Anyways, I think Luke dying was kind of weak. Leia in space was cheap. But my biggest grievance is that they get a female jedi and she just keeps falling for the worst dude in the galaxy after Snoke. 
When you step back from it, the whole series has an odd kind of "we kill the ones we love" kind of vibe to the core of the story, but this one is just on maximum overdrive.


----------



## Spinedriver

Personally, I thought it was pretty good. In regards to the 'hardcore fans' not liking it, I think perhaps their standards might be a bit too high. With this one, many are saying that it's "too different" and that it strays too far from the "spirit" of the original series. Yet, when Force Awakens came out, it was 'too derivative' of the original trilogy. Sometimes, you just can't win.


----------



## auxioluck

I just got back from seeing it, and it was actually better than I thought it would be. I try to go into movies with no expectations, and yes, I have a couple gripes that certain parts seemed to be *almost* copies of Episode V, but overall I liked it WAY more than Force Awakens. Rogue One is still my favorite of the new films though.


----------



## wankerness

I read a breakdown of ratings feedback on this one from every source. Basically, it's about on par with TFA and ahead of Rogue One in every single forum other than Rotten Tomatoes audience/Metacritic user reviews, where a gigantic number of the ratings come from new users. Aka, it incurred the wrath of the same kinds of entitled, angry nerds that do the same kind of "rating bombing runs" on videogames that had some controversial feature/aspect in it that makes them incredibly furious and causes them to rate it 0 using as many spam accounts as possible. The last movie to incur this wrath was the Ghostbusters remake, where they'd nuked it into oblivion BEFORE IT CAME OUT (Note: the movie still stunk, but their directed campaign was clearly a different kind of toxicity).

Obviously some people don't like it at all, but that minority who didn't is SO loud with this one it's ridiculous. Many really seem to have taken it personally. Don't take any chances with a Star Wars movie is the moral here, I guess. When something's awful, you should just move on! Even the piling on Batman V Superman and Suicide Squad didn't have this same tenor of entitlement. Not that it wasn't annoying, too!

I guess on the positive side, hearing all the bellyaching is probably going to result in more reactions like the last guy!



Spinedriver said:


> Personally, I thought it was pretty good. In regards to the 'hardcore fans' not liking it, I think perhaps their standards might be a bit too high. With this one, many are saying that it's "too different" and that it strays too far from the "spirit" of the original series. Yet, when Force Awakens came out, it was 'too derivative' of the original trilogy. Sometimes, you just can't win.



You really can't, just look at the guy a couple posts up from yours complaining that it's a bad copy of the originals!


----------



## SD83

wankerness said:


> You really just wanted a straight adaptation of those Timothy Zahn books[...]?


Yes.  Ever since I read those books. The entire extended universe was filled with so many ideas by so many people (not all of those were good), and to be honest I will never forgive them for just ditching it. The EU WAS Star Wars, with the original movies just being three stories amongst literally hundreds.
That said, the new movies are... OK? I prefer TLJ over TFA already, and probably by a lot. The weakest point about TFA to me was that the transition from VI to VII was just weird. So our heroes defeated the Empire, a bunch of years passes, only for them to find themselves in pretty much the same situation as in the beginning of the original triology? And then we had the dark hologram appearance of Supreme Leader Snokepaltine, Darth Ren, who happens to be even more like Vader now that we saw TJL, at least in terms of background, the new, even bigger and more powerful Death Star, so new and better it even had a different name, a new R2D2, a new Luke on a new desert planet, a new Han Solo... TFA just felt like they tried to make exactly the same movie again, and I HATE reboots. Although it seems almost acceptable when it's done some thirty years after the original movies, these days we seem to get reboots of movies less than a decade after the original.
As for TLJ


Spoiler



So Luke has gone full Kenobi and went into hidding after his studend turned to the dark side. One could argue that this didn't exactly go well the first time. And it pretty much ends in the same way with the former studend slicing his master in half... oh wait, he didn't. That, I think, was very well done. Nice twist. Still, Luke has basically become Obi-Wan, he even looks like him a bit. A bit weird, but not half as bad as some seem to think.
Leias force flight... it looked so damn stupid. Yes, physics and stuff, she would only have to stop herself and then apply a bit more additional force to fly back to the moving ship, easy for a trained jedi (ever tried docking with a moving target in Kerbal Space Program? Hardest thing ever  ) which she totally isn't. It is an extreme situation, so maybe she got some force instincts... still looks horribly stupid though.
As for Snoke: I found it very interesting that with all the talking of ending the Jedi and the Sith once and for all in this movie, what Kylo Ren does is exactly in line with what the Rule of Two of the Sith and that the apprentice is supposed to kill his master once he learned all he could from him. 

Other than that, what really pissed me off what that the characters constantly act like they're in a movie, like it's just a game to them. Oh, we were almost executed, then half the ship blew up, there was blaster fire all around, all the stormtroopers dead, Finn and Phasma just had their little battle, the ship around us is still falling to pieces and burning, but I am on this half destroyed AT-ST being shot at, why not laugh at Finn and invited him to get up here as well? I can live with the humor, new Luke, everything, but there were a few occasions like this one and it was really annoying. It's called acting. You act like you are in that situation, NOT like you just played through that situation in a video game.


Oh, and the new AT-ATs look great


----------



## philkilla

My god this movie was bad.


----------



## will_shred

this guy sums up my feelings of the movie pretty accurately.


----------



## Hollowway

Just saw it. I actually liked it. But the one thing I can’t figure out is (and I don’t think this is a spoiler), what is the significance of the salt? Like, while do they specifically point out that it’s salt, by having the guy taste it and state it?


----------



## philkilla

will_shred said:


> this guy sums up my feelings of the movie pretty accurately.




Hahahaha

Wow, fucking nailed it


----------



## wankerness

That guy is one toxic alt-righter, anything good he brings up is torpedoed by the delivery and the bitchiness (lol the Asian girl is fat so shrek!!).


----------



## wankerness

That guy is one toxic alt-righter, anything good he brings up is torpedoed by the delivery and the bitchiness (lol the Asian girl is fat so shrek!!).


----------



## marcwormjim

Hollowway said:


> Just saw it. I actually liked it. But the one thing I can’t figure out is (and I don’t think this is a spoiler), what is the significance of the salt? Like, while do they specifically point out that it’s salt, by having the guy taste it and state it?



They desperately want the audience to think the “closed-off rebel base in barren white cold planet” set isn’t ripping off Hoth (salt NOT snow!). As far as an in-context reason...I’m sure the same fans who put forward the Snoke background theories are coming up with something.


----------



## Hollowway

marcwormjim said:


> They desperately want the audience to think the “closed-off rebel base in barren white cold planet” set isn’t ripping off Hoth (salt NOT snow!). As far as an in-context reason...I’m sure the same fans who put forward the Snoke background theories are coming up with something.



Yeah, that’s what most of the people said when I tried a google search. Which is lame, for obvious reasons. The red and white was a cool look, but certainly not mandatory enough to cause possible comparisons, and then a line written in as an attempt to avoid them.


----------



## marcwormjim

I enjoy blockbusters that end up being enormous messes that filmmakers should be embarrassed of and actors should distance themselves from.

Justice League was a highly entertaining 2/10 in which you could see millions being burnt in every minute of pointless reshoots and bad post. My schadenfreude expectations were not disappointed.

Which is why 4 to 6/10 films such as Last Jedi are a bummer: The most entertaining moments are you yelling “WHY?” at a bad CG elderly woman flying through space or a muppet ghost materializing to summon a lightning bolt to burn a set piece the other character was just about to burn down himself anyway, but then there are long stretches of boring stuff the audience was expected to cheer for.

In all fairness, the IMAX 3D experience would have been far more positive, had I ingested the five dry grams of psyilocybic mushrooms I’d intended to.


----------



## Demiurge

Hollowway said:


> Just saw it. I actually liked it. But the one thing I can’t figure out is (and I don’t think this is a spoiler), what is the significance of the salt? Like, while do they specifically point out that it’s salt, by having the guy taste it and state it?



The visuals were cool, but introducing the concept didn't make sense. Given the strange shit we know about the atmospheres of the planets around us, it just seems odd for people accustomed to planet-hopping to deliberately taste the ground of a strange planet. Dude probably got killed anyway, but for the moment he was lucky that it just happened to be 'dietary' salt and not something poisonous.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Overall I liked the film, but they could have completely cut out all of rose and finn's scenes, they added nothing to the overall story imo. Dameron being a stubborn moron, Leia flying through space and the force skyping also bothered me, but not to the extent that the casino scenes did.


----------



## synrgy

I think the salt was just a simple way to A) get a couple cool visual moments, and B) to give the attentive viewer another clue as to what was happening with Luke..



Spoiler



One notes that everything left footprints/trails in the sand, _except for _Luke. They even do a close up of his feet on top of Kylo's footprints, to hammer this home.


----------



## MFB

synrgy said:


> I think the salt was just a simple way to A) get a couple cool visual moments, and B) to give the attentive viewer another clue as to what was happening with Luke..
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> One notes that everything left footprints/trails in the sand, _except for _Luke. They even do a close up of his feet on top of Kylo's footprints, to hammer this home.



To be fair, I didn't catch that until the 2nd viewing, the first time I think everyone gets caught up in the fight and it is a great shot, so you aren't looking at details like that


----------



## synrgy

Sure, but some did catch it*, and it was clearly filmed with intent.

Johnson has said he made the film knowing people would watch it multiple times; that he filled the movie with little things he hopes will help reward that experience.

*As for me, I was only about _half_ there. It unfolded at about the same pace as my thought process. I could tell _something _was off, but I wasn't sure _what:_ 



Spoiler



My thoughts were something like 'wait, why does he look like that.. Wait, why is isn't he counterattacking? Wait, why didn't his feet alter Kylo's footprints in the sa.. *OH, SHIT!*'


----------



## Hollowway

Demiurge said:


> The visuals were cool, but introducing the concept didn't make sense. Given the strange shit we know about the atmospheres of the planets around us, it just seems odd for people accustomed to planet-hopping to deliberately taste the ground of a strange planet. Dude probably got killed anyway, but for the moment he was lucky that it just happened to be 'dietary' salt and not something poisonous.



Yep, I was thinking the same thing. Even on earth, who the hell picks up stuff under where someone just walked and tastes it?!

And I get the issue with the contrast and not showing Luke make footprints, but I don’t understand why they had to point out it was salt. The actual substance is irrelevant. 

Plus, if Luke wanted to be more convincing, he could have moved the stuff below his feet, because obviously he could control the physical effect his likeness was having on the planet.


----------



## setsuna7

synrgy said:


> Sure, but some did catch it*, and it was clearly filmed with intent.
> 
> Johnson has said he made the film knowing people would watch it multiple times; that he filled the movie with little things he hopes will help reward that experience.
> 
> *As for me, I was only about _half_ there. It unfolded at about the same pace as my thought process. I could tell _something _was off, but I wasn't sure _what:_
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> My thoughts were something like 'wait, why does he look like that.. Wait, why is isn't he counterattacking? Wait, why didn't his feet alter Kylo's footprints in the sa.. *OH, SHIT!*'



when I saw that Luke was using the Graphlex, I knew that something was off. Also notice the salt footprints of lack thereof on second viewing...


----------



## synrgy

Hollowway said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> because obviously he could control the physical effect his likeness was having on the planet.



That's never demonstrated. At least, not that I caught. Example? Also, spoiler tags?


----------



## StevenC

synrgy said:


> That's never demonstrated. At least, not that I caught. Example? Also, spoiler tags?





Spoiler



He hands stuff to Leia and light doesn't travel through him like a force ghost for example.


----------



## Hollowway

synrgy said:


> That's never demonstrated. At least, not that I caught. Example? Also, spoiler tags?



I would say the dice going to Leia, but it’s possible she was “in on it.” But did their light sabers never hit? I can’t remember, but I’m assuming they did.


----------



## synrgy

StevenC said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> He hands stuff to Leia and light doesn't travel through him like a force ghost for example.





Spoiler



The dice is shown to disappear after Luke does. Didn't _anybody_ who watched this movie _actually watch it_? 

Also, _he wasn't a Force Ghost, _so there's no relevancy, there.


----------



## SD83

KnightBrolaire said:


> but they could have completely cut out all of rose and finn's scenes, they added nothing to the overall story imo. Dameron being a stubborn moron





Spoiler



Dameron was only being a stubborn moron because Vice-Admiral Holdo for no particular reason told pretty much no one about her plan (apparently except for DJ), so everyone on board had to assume was that her plan was just to wait until they ran out of fuel and then die. Mutiny is the only logical answer to that. Or maybe she told everyone except for Damerons bunch of mutineers, and no one of the others told them anything. If Holdo had been a competent leader, not only would the crew had had some hope left, and not the prospect of certain death within the next hours, that Finn/Rose subplot had never happened, but it seems the military leaders of the Resistance (in this case, mainly Leia und later Holdo), and reading into the background about how the situation came to be as it was in the beginning of TFA supports that assumption, are catastrophicly bad at being military leaders. Damerons squadron taking out that Dreadnought... that was a ship almost the size of the Executor, that's a major blow to any opponent, if you have some military power of your own, losing a handful of fighters to greatly weaken the enemy, great, and even if your entire Resistance consists of two small ships, one capital ship and those few x-wings and bombers, you're either dead anyways or such a display of (succesful) heroism will draw people to your side. Either way, it should have been Damerons part to say "We can't go on with that, we're losing to many ships" and Leias part to order him to keep going. Admiral Ackbar would have given him a medal, but his part was apparently just to die without doing anything.





Spoiler



As for Luke, didn't see the footprints thing, but at least caught the dice disappearing  I might be rather alone in that view, but I think his end was very well done


----------



## StevenC

Hollowway said:


> I would say the dice going to Leia, but it’s possible she was “in on it.” But did their light sabers never hit? I can’t remember, but I’m assuming they did.


No lightsabers touched in this film.


synrgy said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The dice is shown to disappear after Luke does. Didn't _anybody_ who watched this movie _actually watch it_?
> 
> Also, _he wasn't a Force Ghost, _so there's no relevancy, there.





Spoiler



So the dice were part of the projection or whatever it was. When he gave the dice to Leia she could hold them. When Kylo picked up the dice he could hold them and then they disappeared. The were demonstrated to have weight, volume and be solid objects for as long as Luke was alive. The point being that Luke was able to make the dice interactive but make himself non interactive. He could have spoiled the salt on the ground if he wanted to.

I brought up the force ghosts as an example of how his projection has different physical interactions. They're transparent, Luke's opaque.


----------



## synrgy

StevenC said:


> No lightsabers touched in this film.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> So the dice were part of the projection or whatever it was. When he gave the dice to Leia she could hold them. When Kylo picked up the dice he could hold them and then they disappeared. The were demonstrated to have weight, volume and be solid objects for as long as Luke was alive. The point being that Luke was able to make the dice interactive but make himself non interactive. He could have spoiled the salt on the ground if he wanted to.
> 
> I brought up the force ghosts as an example of how his projection has different physical interactions. They're transparent, Luke's opaque.





Spoiler



Point taken on the dice, but comparing projection-Luke to Force Ghosts still doesn't make any sense to me. Apples to Oranges; the 'rules' of one have zero relevance to the 'rules' of the other.


----------



## lewis

I just hate hate HATE how everything JJ laid down in FA, was completely thrown away like trash by Rian in TLJ?!?>>

They really needed a Kevin Feige type person overlooking this entire trilogy to ensure there was an obvious plan in place and that continuity and reveals were nailed.

I see the complete opposite happening...to Star Wars....STAR WARS?!?!

how in the hell is a Star Wars trilogy clearly lacking a complete story and organised planning BEFORE the films are shot?. Im sorry but clearly they are just going along and almost deciding there and then what they want to happen rather than know well before a camera is turned on.

The differences between JJ's FA and Rians TLJ blatantly prove that. Im a huge HUGE Disney fanboy and I love SW, but jesus they have completely dicked us badly with this new one.

Im actually hoping with JJ back for the last movie, they act like Rians Does not exist and just make the sequel we all assumed we were getting following on from FA. 

p.s intentionally not giving the fans what they "expected" is A) dumb and B) not even what I mean with my complaints..before anyone starts


----------



## synrgy

For 'not being what you meant', it's kinda weird how it's the only thing you managed to say in any of the six preceding paragraphs.


----------



## synrgy

This is amusing:

https://geektyrant.com/news/star-wa...e-same-way-fans-are-reacting-to-the-last-jedi


----------



## KnightBrolaire

SD83 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Dameron was only being a stubborn moron because Vice-Admiral Holdo for no particular reason told pretty much no one about her plan (apparently except for DJ), so everyone on board had to assume was that her plan was just to wait until they ran out of fuel and then die. Mutiny is the only logical answer to that. Or maybe she told everyone except for Damerons bunch of mutineers, and no one of the others told them anything. If Holdo had been a competent leader, not only would the crew had had some hope left, and not the prospect of certain death within the next hours, that Finn/Rose subplot had never happened, but it seems the military leaders of the Resistance (in this case, mainly Leia und later Holdo), and reading into the background about how the situation came to be as it was in the beginning of TFA supports that assumption, are catastrophicly bad at being military leaders. Damerons squadron taking out that Dreadnought... that was a ship almost the size of the Executor, that's a major blow to any opponent, if you have some military power of your own, losing a handful of fighters to greatly weaken the enemy, great, and even if your entire Resistance consists of two small ships, one capital ship and those few x-wings and bombers, you're either dead anyways or such a display of (succesful) heroism will draw people to your side. Either way, it should have been Damerons part to say "We can't go on with that, we're losing to many ships" and Leias part to order him to keep going. Admiral Ackbar would have given him a medal, but his part was apparently just to die without doing anything.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> As for Luke, didn't see the footprints thing, but at least caught the dice disappearing  I might be rather alone in that view, but I think his end was very well done


My main issue with dameron being stubborn had more to do with him losing the element of surprise with the dreadnought attack but still doing it anyways. Those b wings were so damn slow and his idea of just having them slowly creep towards the dreadnought (even with the surface cannons being destroyed) was asinine. They may as well have had all the b wings do kamikaze lightspeed jumps like holdo did, at least that would have been more efficient in crippling the 1st order's fleet. Holdo was also a dumbass, because like you said, she never properly informed her crew of pertinent info and could have prevented the mutiny.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Double post


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Apparently Kylo can't win a fight to save his life, and he's meant to be the next "Vader." Such a joke. 

As for Disney, I can't stand them for various reasons. When everything has a very sort of "sameness" quality to every movie because Disney will basically own Hollywood, then people who were initially for it will then complain. I won't feel sorry for them, and I hope Disney -- and Hollywood for that matter -- burns to the ground. Completely bereft of ideas, and about as much creativity as a plagiarist. "Hey, I know... let's remake __________."


----------



## StevenC

synrgy said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Point taken on the dice, but comparing projection-Luke to Force Ghosts still doesn't make any sense to me. Apples to Oranges; the 'rules' of one have zero relevance to the 'rules' of the other.


Force ghosts are the only other thing similar to this. We know it takes a lot of force ability. Sure it's not 100% relevant, but it's something I thought worth considering. Sorry if you disagree.


----------



## synrgy

No sorries. I know text lacks tone, but I'm just talking. Not trying to sound emotional or whatever. Like I said earlier: Space wizards. This is all funsies.

So.. Shifting gears.. Objectively speaking (all nostalgia aside) I think it's fair to say that George made the original trilogy up as he went (Luke/Leia love story, anyone?), and it's well documented that he intended the property to be a vehicle for selling toys and other merchandise. His dialog has always been objectively terrible, and his pacing has always been questionable. He's a pioneer for the technical side of things, no doubt, but I think we're all guilty of being too forgiving of those original films. They were lazy pastiches of his favorite samurai and pulp scifi series, bolstered by some very talented and creative crew - including Kasdan, whom by all accounts was said to have worked collaboratively with both Abrams in 7 and Johnson in 8.

Which is all to say that I think people who feel like the originals were amazing films that have somehow been failed by these new ones, I feel like that's gotta be the rose-tint of nostalgia getting in the way of reason. I mean, Hamill famously over-acted his way through 5 and 6. Don't forget: Before the prequels, his was the original "nooooo" that everyone made fun of.

I don't mind people Monday Morning Quarterbacking the story at all; that's fun.. Genuine outrage? Just sad.

And again, I've been a fan longer than I have memory. I just recognize that if we want to pick nits, there are plenty to pick with the originals, too.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Apparently Kylo can't win a fight to save his life, and he's meant to be the next "Vader." Such a joke.
> 
> As for Disney, I can't stand them for various reasons. When everything has a very sort of "sameness" quality to every movie because Disney will basically own Hollywood, then people who were initially for it will then complain. I won't feel sorry for them, and I hope Disney -- and Hollywood for that matter -- burns to the ground. Completely bereft of ideas, and about as much creativity as a plagiarist. "Hey, I know... let's remake __________."


I love how he gets his ass beat by a girl with basically no training not once, but twice. I cackled when snoke gave him shit for losing and told him to "take off that ridiculous helmet"


----------



## odibrom

It's just a movie...

First SW I saw was the Empire Strikes Back, way back in the early 80's when I was a kid (by '83/'84 or so, I was 6 or 7). It blew me completely because of those mystic Yoda sayings and of course, the _force_... Along the years I've found plenty of lame points on the overall story. I found this movie interesting, but then, I had no expectations out of it. It is obvious that those who are pulling the strings at Dysney are trying hard to make an old formula (SW universe) last as long as possible.

I think it is an entertaining movie with interesting plot twists, some are unnecessary, others are lame as... and a few are refreshing. I guess it all depends on what people are looking for when going to see it. Without expectations, I can really enjoy it. I might go see it again this week... or maybe not...

I think the Crystal planet concept is pretty cool...


----------



## StevenC

synrgy said:


> No sorries. I know text lacks tone, but I'm just talking. Not trying to sound emotional or whatever. Like I said earlier: Space wizards. This is all funsies.
> 
> So.. Shifting gears.. Objectively speaking (all nostalgia aside) I think it's fair to say that George made the original trilogy up as he went (Luke/Leia love story, anyone?), and it's well documented that he intended the property to be a vehicle for selling toys and other merchandise. His dialog has always been objectively terrible, and his pacing has always been questionable. He's a pioneer for the technical side of things, no doubt, but I think we're all guilty of being too forgiving of those original films. They were lazy pastiches of his favorite samurai and pulp scifi series, bolstered by some very talented and creative crew - including Kasdan, whom by all accounts was said to have worked collaboratively with both Abrams in 7 and Johnson in 8.
> 
> Which is all to say that I think people who feel like the originals were amazing films that have somehow been failed by these new ones, I feel like that's gotta be the rose-tint of nostalgia getting in the way of reason. I mean, Hamill famously over-acted his way through 5 and 6. Don't forget: Before the prequels, his was the original "nooooo" that everyone made fun of.
> 
> I don't mind people Monday Morning Quarterbacking the story at all; that's fun.. Genuine outrage? Just sad.
> 
> And again, I've been a fan longer than I have memory. I just recognize that if we want to pick nits, there are plenty to pick with the originals, too.


This is at least slightly revisionist and an attempt to degrade the originals to make up for The Last Jedi's failings.

George, at all times, had a general overview for a 9 film series at least. The first 3, chronologically, were always supposed to be what we got, and then the next 6 were to be a more spread out version of what we got as IV, V and VI. He thought the best film to make as a stand alone was IV, with the middle being the best trilogy to do as a stand alone. Hence why V was originally released as V. Luke and Leia as romantic leads lasts, what, the first movie? From the start of V it's clear it's about Leia and Han.

George took a pay cut to get his film made and traded it for the merchandising rights to the films. This turned out to be clever because at the time merchandising wasn't a big deal for films. He bet on his movie being a hit, and he bet on it succeeding in a market that wasn't really there yet. Film studios don't give away the merchandising rights anymore because of Star Wars. If you've listened to any interview with George Lucas, it's clear that he makes films because he loves making films and loves pushing film making. To say he intended the films as a way to sell toys is underselling him.

Everyone acknowledges that Lucas couldn't write dialogue. Everyone acknowledges that's a problem of the screenplays he wrote. Everyone also acknowledges that the thing he did better than anyone else was make up great stories. Bringing in Kasdan, Kershner, Marcia and the rest was what made these films great. Calling them lazy pastiches is just unfair. Sure he took all sorts of inspiration, but those films are brilliant in their own and lift up everything that came before it.

I feel as though we'd get a very similar reaction to what we have now if the prequels and sequels were released in opposite order. If these films came out 15 to 20 years ago made without Lucas, everyone would be ragging on them the way the minority is currently: unoriginal, undermining, insulting to the audience, and/or lore breaking. If then we got the prequels today, we'd all hail the return of Lucas to the driving seat, the same way we hailed the departure of Lucas. The fact is, none of the 7 films that followed were came close: the prequels had too much George; the new ones, not enough; The Clone Wars was a cash grab; and Rogue One was pointless.

I'm not going to deny you enjoying this film, we all like movies other people don't. We all like movies that are objectively bad. But the more I think about this film, the more discussion I see that makes me think about this film, the more I realise this is a bad film. And it's not just a bad film where I don't like the characters or the plot. It's a poorly made film. This is a $200 million film that has no internal consistency, tears down what came before it, seems to despise its own audience and seeks to insult them. There are so many turns and all of them seem like "fuck you"s to people who love the rest of Star Wars. It's a two and a half hour film where every scene seems like a convoluted way to get to the next scene. Maybe this is a good film when you take away the Star Wars branding and rename the characters, but then the glaring atrocities in the film making stick out more.

Genuinely, every comedic scene fell flat for me. It all seemed stupid and absurd in a film, as you say, about space wizards. There's a half hour of this film that's universally loathed for being everything we hated about the prequels. There's a character that's there at best to facilitate that abysmal half hour, or at worst pander to the chinese market. There's a character that was worthless in the last film brought back from the dead, just to be worthless in this film and get killed off again. Leia gets killed just to be brought back in a very stupid, ugly looking scene, so she can then sit out the whole film. This leads, expertly, to a subplot of Poe being insufferable so the movie can introduce a character we're supposed to hate, because we're supposed to like Poe, who then gets killed and the audience doesn't care. Everything we're meant to fear is undermined by either being killed off without payoff, given no context, or we're explicitly told it's not a match for our side. Every good scene is followed immediately by one that betrays it.

Kasdan didn't write this film and it shows. There's no consistency with itself or the other films. Every criticism you can level against any of the others is here in spades. I can't help the context in which I've seen the original films. Everyone involved in the production of this one is aware of the context. They know how everyone feels about those films.

As an adult coming to this film, doing my best to leave others aside, I think it's a piece of crap.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

KnightBrolaire said:


> I love how he gets his ass beat by a girl with basically no training not once, but twice. I cackled when snoke gave him shit for losing and told him to "take off that ridiculous helmet"


That's fucking hilarious and ridiculous.


----------



## lewis

StevenC said:


> This is at least slightly revisionist and an attempt to degrade the originals to make up for The Last Jedi's failings.
> 
> George, at all times, had a general overview for a 9 film series at least. The first 3, chronologically, were always supposed to be what we got, and then the next 6 were to be a more spread out version of what we got as IV, V and VI. He thought the best film to make as a stand alone was IV, with the middle being the best trilogy to do as a stand alone. Hence why V was originally released as V. Luke and Leia as romantic leads lasts, what, the first movie? From the start of V it's clear it's about Leia and Han.
> 
> George took a pay cut to get his film made and traded it for the merchandising rights to the films. This turned out to be clever because at the time merchandising wasn't a big deal for films. He bet on his movie being a hit, and he bet on it succeeding in a market that wasn't really there yet. Film studios don't give away the merchandising rights anymore because of Star Wars. If you've listened to any interview with George Lucas, it's clear that he makes films because he loves making films and loves pushing film making. To say he intended the films as a way to sell toys is underselling him.
> 
> Everyone acknowledges that Lucas couldn't write dialogue. Everyone acknowledges that's a problem of the screenplays he wrote. Everyone also acknowledges that the thing he did better than anyone else was make up great stories. Bringing in Kasdan, Kershner, Marcia and the rest was what made these films great. Calling them lazy pastiches is just unfair. Sure he took all sorts of inspiration, but those films are brilliant in their own and lift up everything that came before it.
> 
> I feel as though we'd get a very similar reaction to what we have now if the prequels and sequels were released in opposite order. If these films came out 15 to 20 years ago made without Lucas, everyone would be ragging on them the way the minority is currently: unoriginal, undermining, insulting to the audience, and/or lore breaking. If then we got the prequels today, we'd all hail the return of Lucas to the driving seat, the same way we hailed the departure of Lucas. The fact is, none of the 7 films that followed were came close: the prequels had too much George; the new ones, not enough; The Clone Wars was a cash grab; and Rogue One was pointless.
> 
> I'm not going to deny you enjoying this film, we all like movies other people don't. We all like movies that are objectively bad. But the more I think about this film, the more discussion I see that makes me think about this film, the more I realise this is a bad film. And it's not just a bad film where I don't like the characters or the plot. It's a poorly made film. This is a $200 million film that has no internal consistency, tears down what came before it, seems to despise its own audience and seeks to insult them. There are so many turns and all of them seem like "fuck you"s to people who love the rest of Star Wars. It's a two and a half hour film where every scene seems like a convoluted way to get to the next scene. Maybe this is a good film when you take away the Star Wars branding and rename the characters, but then the glaring atrocities in the film making stick out more.
> 
> Genuinely, every comedic scene fell flat for me. It all seemed stupid and absurd in a film, as you say, about space wizards. There's a half hour of this film that's universally loathed for being everything we hated about the prequels. There's a character that's there at best to facilitate that abysmal half hour, or at worst pander to the chinese market. There's a character that was worthless in the last film brought back from the dead, just to be worthless in this film and get killed off again. Leia gets killed just to be brought back in a very stupid, ugly looking scene, so she can then sit out the whole film. This leads, expertly, to a subplot of Poe being insufferable so the movie can introduce a character we're supposed to hate, because we're supposed to like Poe, who then gets killed and the audience doesn't care. Everything we're meant to fear is undermined by either being killed off without payoff, given no context, or we're explicitly told it's not a match for our side. Every good scene is followed immediately by one that betrays it.
> 
> Kasdan didn't write this film and it shows. There's no consistency with itself or the other films. Every criticism you can level against any of the others is here in spades. I can't help the context in which I've seen the original films. Everyone involved in the production of this one is aware of the context. They know how everyone feels about those films.
> 
> As an adult coming to this film, doing my best to leave others aside, I think it's a piece of crap.


Boom...
You get it!!!
Wholeheartedly agree with everything written here.


----------



## philkilla

StevenC said:


> This is at least slightly revisionist and an attempt to degrade the originals to make up for The Last Jedi's failings.
> 
> George, at all times, had a general overview for a 9 film series at least. The first 3, chronologically, were always supposed to be what we got, and then the next 6 were to be a more spread out version of what we got as IV, V and VI. He thought the best film to make as a stand alone was IV, with the middle being the best trilogy to do as a stand alone. Hence why V was originally released as V. Luke and Leia as romantic leads lasts, what, the first movie? From the start of V it's clear it's about Leia and Han.
> 
> George took a pay cut to get his film made and traded it for the merchandising rights to the films. This turned out to be clever because at the time merchandising wasn't a big deal for films. He bet on his movie being a hit, and he bet on it succeeding in a market that wasn't really there yet. Film studios don't give away the merchandising rights anymore because of Star Wars. If you've listened to any interview with George Lucas, it's clear that he makes films because he loves making films and loves pushing film making. To say he intended the films as a way to sell toys is underselling him.
> 
> Everyone acknowledges that Lucas couldn't write dialogue. Everyone acknowledges that's a problem of the screenplays he wrote. Everyone also acknowledges that the thing he did better than anyone else was make up great stories. Bringing in Kasdan, Kershner, Marcia and the rest was what made these films great. Calling them lazy pastiches is just unfair. Sure he took all sorts of inspiration, but those films are brilliant in their own and lift up everything that came before it.
> 
> I feel as though we'd get a very similar reaction to what we have now if the prequels and sequels were released in opposite order. If these films came out 15 to 20 years ago made without Lucas, everyone would be ragging on them the way the minority is currently: unoriginal, undermining, insulting to the audience, and/or lore breaking. If then we got the prequels today, we'd all hail the return of Lucas to the driving seat, the same way we hailed the departure of Lucas. The fact is, none of the 7 films that followed were came close: the prequels had too much George; the new ones, not enough; The Clone Wars was a cash grab; and Rogue One was pointless.
> 
> I'm not going to deny you enjoying this film, we all like movies other people don't. We all like movies that are objectively bad. But the more I think about this film, the more discussion I see that makes me think about this film, the more I realise this is a bad film. And it's not just a bad film where I don't like the characters or the plot. It's a poorly made film. This is a $200 million film that has no internal consistency, tears down what came before it, seems to despise its own audience and seeks to insult them. There are so many turns and all of them seem like "fuck you"s to people who love the rest of Star Wars. It's a two and a half hour film where every scene seems like a convoluted way to get to the next scene. Maybe this is a good film when you take away the Star Wars branding and rename the characters, but then the glaring atrocities in the film making stick out more.
> 
> Genuinely, every comedic scene fell flat for me. It all seemed stupid and absurd in a film, as you say, about space wizards. There's a half hour of this film that's universally loathed for being everything we hated about the prequels. There's a character that's there at best to facilitate that abysmal half hour, or at worst pander to the chinese market. There's a character that was worthless in the last film brought back from the dead, just to be worthless in this film and get killed off again. Leia gets killed just to be brought back in a very stupid, ugly looking scene, so she can then sit out the whole film. This leads, expertly, to a subplot of Poe being insufferable so the movie can introduce a character we're supposed to hate, because we're supposed to like Poe, who then gets killed and the audience doesn't care. Everything we're meant to fear is undermined by either being killed off without payoff, given no context, or we're explicitly told it's not a match for our side. Every good scene is followed immediately by one that betrays it.
> 
> Kasdan didn't write this film and it shows. There's no consistency with itself or the other films. Every criticism you can level against any of the others is here in spades. I can't help the context in which I've seen the original films. Everyone involved in the production of this one is aware of the context. They know how everyone feels about those films.
> 
> As an adult coming to this film, doing my best to leave others aside, I think it's a piece of crap.



Brilliant. I enjoyed reading that quite a bit.

Maybe one of the sadder sides of this entire debacle is there's not even any excitement pushing towards the next film in what, two years? TFA was arguably bad/Just as bad as TLJ, but at least we were left with some anticipation for what came later.

When I heard JJ Abrams was directing Ep. IX that familiar uneasy feeling set in; now though, it seems this "story" or franchise really is dead.

I've said for years the creative figure heads should make a KOTOR story/give Revan some thematic justice etc...now though, it would be more of a tragedy than anything.


----------



## synrgy

StevenC said:


> George, at all times, had a general overview for a 9 film series at least.



Sorry, but *that* is the "revisionist history". The original release wasn't calked "ep 4"; that was added retroactively; multiple events in 5 and 6 retcon events in 4. He knew he wanted a multi episode saga, but to assert that he had everything all planned out from the beginning is verifiably false. If it weren't, we wouldn't be talking about "Star Wars" or "Luke Skywalker" right now:

"Lucas started work on his second film's script draft, _The Journal of the Whills_, telling the tale of the training of apprentice CJ Thorpe as a "Jedi-Bendu" space commando by the legendary Mace Windy."

A later draft featured Anakin Starkiller and an alien Han Solo, and tge version we all know and love was still being tweaked during filming and post production.

If he had it all figured out ahead of time, there would be no "special editions".

The toys are fresh on my brain becaise Netflix has a new documentary about them that I just watched yesterday. In a case of your word vs Kenner's, I'm going with Kenner's.


----------



## StevenC

Look man, do what you need to so you can enjoy the new movie.


----------



## MFB

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Apparently Kylo can't win a fight to save his life, and he's meant to be the next "Vader." Such a joke.





Spoiler



It's almost like _that's the entire point_.

You've got Ben Solo, son of Han Solo - one of the most legendary smugglers in the galaxy, and General Leia Organa Solo - leader of the Rebel forces that helped take down THE Galactic Empire with the aid of her brother; oh, and he just happens to be the last known Jedi after training under both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, both of whom served in the Clone Wars, and son of Anakin Skywalker - who was groomed by the Jedi to _bring balance to the Force_. You realize the fucking shoes he has to fill?

Ben is being trained by Luke, along with others to be a great Jedi, all of Luke's greatness with none of his faults, and then one day after deciding for him that he's gone Dark Side, Luke tries to kill Ben _in his sleep; _but he stops himself, realizing what he's doing, and is caught by Ben, who then justifiably fights back and goes full scorched Earth against the Jedi and Luke. 

He's like, early 20's at best when all this is happening with the weight of galactic control on his shoulders currently and a gigantic family legacy for the rest of his life, and you think he's going to be stone cold like Vader? Now he's shed the 'boy in the mask' quip by destroying the mask and killed his master and leader of the First Order - Supreme Leader Snoke, so he's basically unchecked. 

Kylo is at least a complex character, Vader was basically a tall body that stood there and intimidated you because he could choke you without touching you. If he didn't have that, wouldn't anybody really have given a shit?


----------



## will_shred

Hollowway said:


> Just saw it. I actually liked it. But the one thing I can’t figure out is (and I don’t think this is a spoiler), what is the significance of the salt? Like, while do they specifically point out that it’s salt, by having the guy taste it and state it?



Its got electrolytes


----------



## synrgy

StevenC said:


> Look man, do what you need to so you can enjoy the new movie.



I didn't have to do anything. Again, I'm just talking, here. Nobody is peeing on your Cheerios.


----------



## MFB

synrgy said:


> Nobody is peeing on your Cheerios.



Bruh, you can't tell me that mid-stream, it's too late!


----------



## synrgy

http://mentalfloss.com/article/88540/8-major-changes-original-star-wars-trilogy-drafts

^Supporting the assertion that the movies were made up as they went. To be clear, I don't mean this as any kind of dig. My overall point is that _this is how big budget movies are made._ It's not new.

Also, here's a relevant 2015 quote from Kasdan, emphasis mine:

"The thing I always loved about Star Wars - and George (Lucas) had this when he made "A New Hope" and J.J. (Abrams) can hook into this very strongly - is that it's goofy, you know? There are big issues and there's some philosophy, *but it's basically goofy*. And I think The Force Awakens is goofy - in the best way. Wherever there's a question: Could that happen? Well, why not? And with the canon - everyone refers to the canon, but *it has zero meaning to me*. I don't know what the canon is. I cannot get that straight."


----------



## SD83

synrgy said:


> "The thing I always loved about Star Wars - and George (Lucas) had this when he made "A New Hope" and J.J. (Abrams) can hook into this very strongly - is that it's goofy, you know? There are big issues and there's some philosophy, *but it's basically goofy*. And I think The Force Awakens is goofy - in the best way. Wherever there's a question: Could that happen? Well, why not? And with the canon - everyone refers to the canon, but *it has zero meaning to me*. I don't know what the canon is. I cannot get that straight."


How can he not know what the canon is? It's not like Kasdan is new to the franchise. Which makes it even worse, because he apparently doesn't care. Sure, "it's just a movie", but unless you're going all surrealist, you need consistency in your movies, and especially with the extended universe ditched, that's not even that hard in Star Wars. It's not GoT with what feels like twelve hundred houses, three million characters, everyone connected to everyone in various ways, every square inch of the world has some extensive backstory... he's not completly wrong about it being goofy though. R2D2 & C3PO in general, that pointless space worm on the asteroid in V... I've always seen Star Wars as more of a fantasy story in space, and one far less serious than for example Lord of the rings. And to me, TLJ succeded in recreating that far better than TFA, even with it's major plotholes and Rose. TFA left me with not much to look forward to. Yeah, there was the fate of Luke, but he would just teach Rey on some remote planet, just like Yoda did, and then she would confront Kylo Ren. We would also see Snoke in the flesh, and he would be the head of the First Order, just like Palpatine was the head of the Empire (with no further backstory delivered in the movies as far as I remember). The Rebels would probably come under attack, and escape. Finn and probably Chewie and/or Poe would be caught by the First Order, because someone made a deal with the later. The way they did TLJ, it looks like IX is not going to be The return of the Jedi, and that makes me look forward to it a lot more. It's probably going to be a new Star Wars film that acutally has a new story. Obviously, it has to end in the destruction of the First Order, and I hope they get Rose out of the story or at least reduce her Jar-Jar-levels to less then 10, and I'm a bit afraid that they will bring back Maz Kanata for no particular reason again, but other than that, I for one am looking forward to IX much more than I was for VIII.


----------



## CerealKiller

I enjoyed it, and was entertained for ~2.5 hours. That is much more than I can say about most other movies. I don't really get most of the criticism, the SW universe was never that consistent to me anyway. I just love lightsabers and the weird animals and planets. Loved the scenery and soundtrack. Some characters were silly, but that is actually consistent with the other 7-8 movies.


----------



## wankerness

I watched it again. I think the tone is occasionally a problem, and I've amended my opinion on the "casino planet" kind of sucks to be more "EVERYTHING WITH FINN/ROSE" kind of sucks. Like, she's just not very interesting and is mostly annoying, and they're way too light compared to everything else. It IS kind of funny that their plot


Spoiler



ultimately has zero impact on the rest of the movie other than they completely fuck up Holdo's escape plan by spilling the beans about the stealthed transports, unless you count inspiring some stupid kid. And the biggest groans in the movie for me all come from the climax of their arc, with lines like the one about "CHROME DOME."


 BUT, the entire last hour, hour and a half is pretty amazing. Just, in terms of a dramatic arc, it should have ended before the entire sequence on the salt planet.

I can now sort of agree with one entitled rager complaint -


Spoiler



Luke dying does feel perfunctory. I was watching it with another old anal retentive guy yesterday who seems to have a fair amount in common with the repeat complainers here. He groaned REALLY loudly when Luke showed up, was REALLY happy when the reveal about the force projection happened, but then went COME THE FUCK ON and drew the rage of all the surrounding parents when Luke vaporized. It fits thematically with everything else dying/burning/etc to clear out for the new characters, but yeah, I get it. I wonder if they'd known Carrie Fisher was going to die if they'd left him alive??



What is with these incoherent complaints about KYLO REN IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE NEW VADER BUT HE SUCKS?? That's exactly the point!! In both movies! He's basically an emorager and that's very much the point. He's strengthening through this movie but at no point is his character ever supposed to be like Vader in the OT. And this complaint about KYLO REN LOST TO REY TWICE ? You realize that his loss is portrayed as pathetic right away in the movie, right?


Spoiler



And that she* doesn't *beat him again??? Through that entire fight, they're VERY explicit that he's much stronger than her. Like, the bulk of that fight has him fighting THREE guards at once and barely cracking a sweat while she's taking on ONE and she's losing!! She tosses him her saber at the end to get that last guy, but the overall "score" there was what, 6-2? And then when they "FIGHT," the only thing she does vs him is manage to pull with the force harder than the lightsaber handle is put together, so she "beats him" by an explosion going off that he caused as much as she did that just allows her to run away!!

Just, Jesus Christ, if you're going to bitch and whine about this movie so damn much at least come up with complaints with some basis in what exists in the movie. Argh. It's starting to seem like every person that hates this movie is concentrated on this forum. None of the movie discussion sites I hang out on have *anything* like this. There are plenty of people who don't like it, but it's more a basic "it's noisy and messy and stupid and reminds me of the prequels" instead of...this. I guess I saw similar complaints to these on a Return of Kings review my friend linked me, which overlaps with that "hilarious" Shrek video! The entitlement is strong here. Who cares if the screenwriter doesn't "FOLLOW CANON?" It sounds that unlike many here, apparently he can have fun with Star Wars instead of checking Wookiepedia for every single thing that happens and making sure none of it doesn't already have notes about it. I for one am glad they didn't stick to the canon and talk about midichlorians.





CerealKiller said:


> I enjoyed it, and was entertained for ~2.5 hours. That is much more than I can say about most other movies. I don't really get most of the criticism, the SW universe was never that consistent to me anyway. I just love lightsabers and the weird animals and planets. Loved the scenery and soundtrack. Some characters were silly, but that is actually consistent with the other 7-8 movies.



How DARE you have fun and suggest that it doesn't need to perfectly match everything that came before, even though there were already plenty of inconsistencies between movies!!


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> How DARE you have fun and suggest that it doesn't need to perfectly match everything that came before, even though there were already plenty of inconsistencies between movies!!


I don't see how making fun of people not liking it is any better than people getting angry because they were let down.


----------



## lewis

StevenC said:


> I don't see how making fun of people not liking it is any better than people getting angry because they were let down.


ahhhh Irony....


----------



## 1b4n3z

Spoiler



I started to write how I felt bad how Johnson had such a difficult job to kill off every plot thread episode 7 left dangling, but now I think he should have never taken the job in the first place. Either it was just disdain for SW nostalgia and all the peripheral stuff related to the saga (fan theories or predictions) or maybe it was a cool idea to always pick the unexpected path - no matter how silly.
I'm guessing both, actually, as even the official trailer is quite deceptive (whereas with ep 7 it wasn't). The plot was messy and rushed as every plot point and character from the previous episode had to appear and disappear without affecting the outcome much (if at all). 

Surprising is good but this is silly and those twists are just forced (pun unintented), much like the humor. Marvel again? Lots of wasted opportunities here, so not such a great movie.

Johnson should have skipped this and go for the inevitable reboot in ~10 years time


----------



## BenjaminW

All I have to say about this movie is that I thought it was okay. I honestly can't find anything else to say about it.


----------



## fps

lewis said:


> p.s intentionally not giving the fans what they "expected" is A) dumb and B) not even what I mean with my complaints..before anyone starts



Then I'm struggling a bit to get what you do mean.... I'm quite enjoying the unpredictability, but that doesn't mean it's unplanned.


----------



## lewis

fps said:


> Then I'm struggling a bit to get what you do mean.... I'm quite enjoying the unpredictability, but that doesn't mean it's unplanned.



I read an interview somewhere from people involved with making the movie where they stated that they allowed Rian to interpret JJ's story from the FA however he wanted and essentially allowed him to just do whatever he wanted to the story from that point, going forward....

which to me, proves they DIDNT have a pre planned story in place for the entirety of the trilogy and instead were operating on a film to film basis. Which is why there is no continuity, reveals/answers are either disappointing or do not make sense, and tonally they are not comparable.
because instead of having an overseer guiding whoever the director is in all these things, they did not and what we are left with is a mish mash couple of films, from contradicting directors, who fight eachother out. Instead of working seamlessly and harmoniously like a trilogy SHOULD be.

Rian basically watched the FA, didnt really understand what Star Wars is all about and what it means to people, then tried to create some shock an awe "talking points" type of campaign with his "version" of star wars.


----------



## crankyrayhanky

Good flick


----------



## fps

lewis said:


> I read an interview somewhere from people involved with making the movie where they stated that they allowed Rian to interpret JJ's story from the FA however he wanted and essentially allowed him to just do whatever he wanted to the story from that point, going forward....
> 
> which to me, proves they DIDNT have a pre planned story in place for the entirety of the trilogy and instead were operating on a film to film basis. Which is why there is no continuity, reveals/answers are either disappointing or do not make sense, and tonally they are not comparable.
> because instead of having an overseer guiding whoever the director is in all these things, they did not and what we are left with is a mish mash couple of films, from contradicting directors, who fight eachother out. Instead of working seamlessly and harmoniously like a trilogy SHOULD be.
> 
> Rian basically watched the FA, didnt really understand what Star Wars is all about and what it means to people, then tried to create some shock an awe "talking points" type of campaign with his "version" of star wars.



I dunno mate - this happened obviously and shamelessly throughout the original Star Wars trilogy - Solo getting frozen cos they didn't know if Harrison Ford would come back for another movie, Luke kissing his sister, etc - and everyone loves those. These days you just don't get that time for the dust to settle, everyone wants to have their opinion first and immediately, in this case without the series of movies even being finished. Enjoy them for the hokum they are - that's what the originals were, they're enjoyable pap.


----------



## StevenC

fps said:


> Enjoy them for the hokum they are - that's what the originals were, they're enjoyable pap.


Is it ok to not enjoy it because you think it's bad movie making and story telling?


----------



## synrgy

It's okay to not like it.

This is a place designed exclusively for the purpose of discussion. If you don't want to discuss your positions, you're not under any obligation to post them here.


----------



## Hollowway

It's true that we are holding the movies to a level that they should match the first one out. Or Empire. But, realistically, it's got more sequels than Rocky at this point. (I think, don't quote me on that.) So, it's never going to be as stellar as the first one. Like, The Matrix was incredible. The sequels, not so much.

And it's also tough to tell, because so much time has passed, we were all different ages then. I'm sure little me would have cut a lot more slack than old, curmudgeonly me. And it’s no longer ground breaking, or a new story. I mean, A New Hope had light sabers, droids, Darth Vader, and the Death Star. That’s a crap load of Hooooly Shit type of cool stuff. It would be virtually impossible to compete with that. The only way they can is with a great story. And this is Hollywood, so they’d rather have a safe blockbuster than roll the dice on a cool story.


----------



## A-Branger

well finally watched the movie. Did it same fassion as the last one, not watching ANY trailer. oooh sooo much better. That included not visiting this tread anymore.

Havent read every single post in here, but a couple of points I came accross. About the "mm its salt!" moment, thats a quick way to show WFT is with the red/white stuff. Which makes for an amazing effect on the ships, the red dust flying over a white surface. Its purely a visual thing. The pointing out "its salt", its to shut you up from the start, you know when you see a white floor and the general walks and leaves red footprints, first thing comes into your mind is "what?", then the guy says "its salt", then you go "aaw cool then"... enjoy the next awesome visuals... period

and for those who want to ramble again about "how Rey can fight with Kylo, she has no training"..... same answer as with the previous movie, she DO can fight, why you think she carries her staff from day 1. She knows how to fight, change a staff for a lightsaber, same deal. You do not need to "use the force" to wiggle a lightsaber.


now about the movie, I really like it. Not sure yet if I like it as much as the FA, but I did like it. Felt it was going to end like 3 times, but it kept on going. One of the perks of not watching ANY trailer  

LOVE the puppet Yoda, friking LOVE IT.... one of the things I HATE about the precuels was the badly CGI old grumpy man yoda that suddlendly becomes the flash in an over caffein grasshoper battle..... Now this time they bring the old funny puppet from the original triloggy, much muhc muhc better.

LOVE to finally see the red guards actually doing something rather than standing there next to Vader or whatever in command. IT shows how fucking baddasses they really are and why they are the choice of bodyguard

and I HATE the stupid floating in space scene of Leya, [email protected]#%$^!!!, now shes fricking Goku?!?!!....... seriusly they have such a beautiful dead for her and miss the boat.... fair enough, then they could ahve her being the camicaze ship at light speed (which BTW was AWESOMEEEE), but nope, lets use this other chick instead to be the badass who sacrifices herself for the well of everyone in the most awesome way..... all for what for that one scene with Luke???. F that. they ahd their chacne to give her a beautiful dead, now what they gonna do??? another CGI of her for half of the next film???


----------



## fps

StevenC said:


> Is it ok to not enjoy it because you think it's bad movie making and story telling?



Of course! But the original ones were no different to these in that regard, is my point.


----------



## Edika

Damn with all the heated arguments I feel I'm in the PCE part of the forum...


----------



## marcwormjim

Did the course of the discussion subvert your expectations? Because I hear that’s an indicator of quality now.


----------



## SD83

A-Branger said:


> and for those who want to ramble again about "how Rey can fight with Kylo, she has no training"..... same answer as with the previous movie, she DO can fight, why you think she carries her staff from day 1. She knows how to fight, change a staff for a lightsaber, same deal. You do not need to "use the force" to wiggle a lightsaber.



You don't need to, but according to what pretty much every Star Wars movie prior to this showed, as long as you're human, it's supposed to make you a lot better. You can sense what the opponent is about to do ever so slightly before he does it, your overall speed might be increased. A Jedi can fight off blaster shots with a lightsaber, someone who is insanely good with a staff can't. If she won against Finn, or Poe, or Chewie or whatever, no problem, but good fighter vs trained jedi should be a bit like crossbow vs machine gun. Sure, both can kill you, but the machine gun is way better at it and will win 99 out of 100 times. Though I think they portrayed her a lot better in TLJ than they did in TFA. In TFA, she was fluent in apparently every language except for whatever the Wookies speak, the best mechanic in the galaxy, could fly an outdated, heavily modified ship like a pro after half a minute of looking at the controls, the most powerful untrained force user ever, and apparently her sense of direction was off the scale  The Last Jedi pretty much fixed what TFA screwed up with her as far as it could, which is most obvious maybe in the (awesome) fight with red guards where Kylo comes across as the much, much better fighter of the two.


----------



## Quiet Coil

Ever been handed a Coca Cola, take a sip and find yourself confused and maybe a little alarmed, wondering if this is what spoiled soda tastes like, only to then realized you’re drinking a rootbeer? Not a cherry coke or even a Diet Coke with lime, but something (other than being bubbly and sweet) entirely different.

That’s what my first viewing was like. I get the whole “he took risks and mixed it up” argument, but come on- at least give me a rum & coke or something.

All of that said I did enjoy it more on my second viewing now that I knew what specific parts I’d write off and to expect the awkward preachiness. I could better appreciate the good bits this time, and I’m hoping JJ brings things full circle and maybe even ties in another original character or two (that’s the way Disney & Co. chose to start this and I’d appreciate the continuity, however brief).



Spoiler



I still think the whole “guy with a bloom on his lapel” in the casino was a wasted opportunity. You’re already having stupid fun, why not throw Lando or Nien Nunb in there? Don’t name names, just make if a fun nod instead of adding another pointless character.


----------



## Hollowway

A-Branger said:


> Havent read every single post in here, but a couple of points I came accross. About the "mm its salt!" moment, thats a quick way to show WFT is with the red/white stuff. Which makes for an amazing effect on the ships, the red dust flying over a white surface. Its purely a visual thing. The pointing out "its salt", its to shut you up from the start, you know when you see a white floor and the general walks and leaves red footprints, first thing comes into your mind is "what?", then the guy says "its salt", then you go "aaw cool then"... enjoy the next awesome visuals... period



That might be the rationale for why they did it. But, if so, it's a dumbass reason. This is STAR WARS for Pete's sake. We kind of expect that there's going to be new weird stuff we have to figure out. There hasn't been a precedent for explaining every odd thing to the point we need to figure it out immediately. It's not like Rey had to to whisper to Kylo, "The Praetorian Guards have a special face shield that looks opaque, but they can see out of," to let us know they aren't running around blindly. We just see it and figure, "Well, there's something cool. Maybe I'll google it after the film." If they had this vision of white on top of red, and they wanted us to know that the top layer was salt, then there are a bunch of ways to work that into a conversation that is not licking the ground of a planet you've never been on. I mean, I wouldn't scoop up something on the ground here and taste it, and I know already it's not acid or poison or something. But on another planet? That just seems like a really bad idea. Plus, I was less curious about the salt, and more the stuff under it, since it looked like blood. If they wanted to get out of the way what was the weird contrast of materials, that would have been my question.
Anyway, if your hypothesis is correct - and all signs point to it being so - then it's just a clunky way of getting that out in the open for us.


----------



## synrgy

Well, whatever the case, it's about to crack $1bil worldwide, which puts it well on-track to land inside the top 10 highest-grossing domestic films of all time.


----------



## wankerness

In general, box office records mean nothing these days. Thanks to inflation and more and more emphasis on massive, massive openings, the increased rollout in China (meaning the more generic the blockbuster, the more likely it will gain hundreds of millions there) and fewer and fewer movies released every year, basically every year at least one movie's going to get on the top 10. Titanic and to a lesser degree Avatar were the last really impressive movies in terms of crazy audience response IMO (with how long they held on since people were going back again and again for weeks). It's just a studio machine to manufacture box office phenomenons now. Star Wars has no real competition for weeks so I have no doubt it's going to keep making scads of money for a while.


----------



## wankerness

Hollowway said:


> That might be the rationale for why they did it. But, if so, it's a dumbass reason. This is STAR WARS for Pete's sake. We kind of expect that there's going to be new weird stuff we have to figure out. There hasn't been a precedent for explaining every odd thing to the point we need to figure it out immediately. It's not like Rey had to to whisper to Kylo, "The Praetorian Guards have a special face shield that looks opaque, but they can see out of," to let us know they aren't running around blindly. We just see it and figure, "Well, there's something cool. Maybe I'll google it after the film." If they had this vision of white on top of red, and they wanted us to know that the top layer was salt, then there are a bunch of ways to work that into a conversation that is not licking the ground of a planet you've never been on. I mean, I wouldn't scoop up something on the ground here and taste it, and I know already it's not acid or poison or something. But on another planet? That just seems like a really bad idea. Plus, I was less curious about the salt, and more the stuff under it, since it looked like blood. If they wanted to get out of the way what was the weird contrast of materials, that would have been my question.
> Anyway, if your hypothesis is correct - and all signs point to it being so - then it's just a clunky way of getting that out in the open for us.



So...ONE LINE of explanation on ONE THING in the movie = explaining every little thing in the movie? He says it to another person when they both look at the ground and seem to question what it is! He tastes it and tells the other guy! Yes, it's there to tell the audience. Yes, the other movies also say things like "THE FOREST MOON OF ENDOR" instead of simply "ENDOR" to make sure that we know it's a forest.

I just don't get this complaint. It's so specific! There's stuff like this in all of the movies (especially the prequels, but being less stupid than them is no achievement). Like, I dunno...Luke saying "i'm glad you had these compartments" after they get out of the compartments? Boy, they sure talked down to the audience there! As if we couldn't have figured out they were compartments!!! They were a hole in the floor, and had a lid on them!!! *insert several more sentences about how bad the movie is*


----------



## wankerness

marcwormjim said:


> Did the course of the discussion subvert your expectations? Because I hear that’s an indicator of quality now.



This needed a citation to Redlettermedia


----------



## marcwormjim

wankerness said:


> This needed a citation to Redlettermedia



You think I’m going to credit _these _hack frauds?


----------



## marcwormjim

wankerness said:


> I just don't get this complaint. It's so specific! There's stuff like this in all of the movies (especially the prequels, but being less stupid than them is no achievement). Like, I dunno...Luke saying "i'm glad you had these compartments" after they get out of the compartments? Boy, they sure talked down to the audience there! As if we couldn't have figured out they were compartments!!! They were a hole in the floor, and had a lid on them!!! *insert several more sentences about how bad the movie is*



I rewatched RoTJ and TFA before seeing the latest. Everyone complaining about the make-it-up-as-you-go physics of Luke’s force projection is forgetting that Obi Wan’s ghost walked out of a swamp and immediately needed to sit on a log - Which he did, without falling through it. Same for all the stuff you mentioned.

It’s just that Star Wars fans have always been dumber than the films, and the films keep getting dumber; so those of us older fans who haven’t died yet are crying foul over having our intelligence insulted, even though we’re the ones shambling into a theater knowing we’ll be surrounded by the film’s intended audience of four year-old children.


----------



## NotDonVito




----------



## NotDonVito

link broke lol


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> Yes, the other movies also say things like "THE FOREST MOON OF ENDOR" instead of simply "ENDOR" to make sure that we know it's a forest.


I mean, it's not simply Endor. It's one of Endor's moons. Specifically the one with the forests. To me at least, that's different than having a scene involving three new throwaway characters eating stuff off the ground of an unfamiliar planet and talking about salt. To me, the key point of this scene is "see it's not Hoth, this is salt not snow", when we all would have been content if they'd just shown some clips of those ships kicking up dust. They also did that, and Star Wars always has a lot of background information available, so this scene was clunky and pointless. Adding more to the run time than the plot.


----------



## marcwormjim

What plot? I ask because I got lost in the Cineplex and only walked into the theater in time to see Mark Hamill looking like he died taking a mean shit, and it seemed like the only scene of consequence. But then no one in that other solar system wondered where the Jedi guy went, so maybe it wasn’t.


----------



## fps

marcwormjim said:


> I rewatched RoTJ and TFA before seeing the latest. Everyone complaining about the make-it-up-as-you-go physics of Luke’s force projection is forgetting that Obi Wan’s ghost walked out of a swamp and immediately needed to sit on a log - Which he did, without falling through it. Same for all the stuff you mentioned.
> 
> It’s just that Star Wars fans have always been dumber than the films, and the films keep getting dumber; so those of us older fans who haven’t died yet are crying foul over having our intelligence insulted, even though we’re the ones shambling into a theater knowing we’ll be surrounded by the film’s intended audience of four year-old children.



It's also that they're children's films, and these new children's films (intellectually, conceptually etc) are being judged by adults who are blinkered, as you say, to the flaws of the originals due to the time of life when they first saw them.

I think the issue is the fans have always been more intelligent than the films, not less - unless they were children when they first saw them.


----------



## fps

Hollowway said:


> That might be the rationale for why they did it. But, if so, it's a dumbass reason. This is STAR WARS for Pete's sake. We kind of expect that there's going to be new weird stuff we have to figure out.



Seriously, when has anything ever been complicated to figure out in a Star Wars film?


----------



## Hollowway

wankerness said:


> So...ONE LINE of explanation on ONE THING in the movie = explaining every little thing in the movie? He says it to another person when they both look at the ground and seem to question what it is! He tastes it and tells the other guy! Yes, it's there to tell the audience. Yes, the other movies also say things like "THE FOREST MOON OF ENDOR" instead of simply "ENDOR" to make sure that we know it's a forest.
> 
> I just don't get this complaint. It's so specific! There's stuff like this in all of the movies (especially the prequels, but being less stupid than them is no achievement). Like, I dunno...Luke saying "i'm glad you had these compartments" after they get out of the compartments? Boy, they sure talked down to the audience there! As if we couldn't have figured out they were compartments!!! They were a hole in the floor, and had a lid on them!!! *insert several more sentences about how bad the movie is*



Yeah, but keep in mind I'm on an internet forum talking about my thoughts on the movie. Overall, I did like it, and I liked it WAY better than TFA, or episodes 1-3. But, yeah, that line stuck out at me as super clunky. Like in non-star-wars films when it's obvious that the put in dialogue between characters in order to explain stuff to the audience. It just bugs me, because it takes me out of the moment. And because this is a huge budget film, I didn't expect that sort of clunkiness, so I thought this was going to be some sort of significance, and spent the rest of the movie waiting for something relevant to the salt to occurred. And, after all that, apparently the only thing truly salty is me.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Rewatched it and like I said upon viewing it the 1st time, pretty much all of the rose/finn scenes suck and could have been completely cut from the film. I still enjoyed it, but god the movie would have been a lot leaner if they chopped all those scenes.


----------



## StevenC

fps said:


> It's also that they're children's films


That's a massive cop out. Some of the best films ever have been children's films. To say that because it's not marketed solely to over 21s it shouldn't be considered critically is ridiculous.

Next are you going to tell me Wall E and Cars 2 are of the same calibre?


----------



## mongey

I feel that without flying leia scene , a whole lot less Poe and every single thing Finn and rose do it would’ve been allot better film.


----------



## marcwormjim

StevenC said:


> That's a massive cop out. Some of the best films ever have been children's films. To say that because it's not marketed solely to over 21s it shouldn't be considered critically is ridiculous.
> 
> Next are you going to tell me Wall E and Cars 2 are of the same calibre?



The intended audience is a consideration; not the answer.


----------



## bostjan

synrgy said:


> Saw it Saturday. Thought it was near-perfect. As per usual, a lot of the things I'm seeing people reference as 'plot holes', aren't.
> 
> Take, for instance, one of bostjan's beefs:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding the bombs 'falling':
> 
> A motor situated on the top of the bomb racks pushes the entire stack down toward the bomb bay door, then the bombs have velocity to continue through the space in between the bomber and the target. There’s no atmosphere to slow them down, and the battle cruiser's mass would also help pull the bombs toward it.
> 
> Not to mention that these are basically movies about _space wizards_. Lighten up.



Super late to respond, but keep in mind that the detonator also falls the same direction as the bombs when the character kicks the ladder. was there a motor pushing that downward as well?

I get the whole "lighten up dudes, it's a fricken Star Wars movie" response, but ultimately, if you test people's suspension of disbelief, even in a universe where we've come to accept a lot of magical nonsense, you have to make it work to the end of the storytelling going on or else you lose your audience.

I still really enjoyed TLJ, but I'm not willing to forget about all of the little problems, since they all add up.

Upon further reflection, I think that the fatal flaw in TLJ was not forsaking the character development from previous films, but the boredom during the middle of the film. If the film started out the same and ended the same way, but had thought of something more exciting or else even just more dramatic for the second act, then it'd be fine to shrug off all of the weird plot holes and characters behaving so oddly. Ultimately, though, I think this film suffers from the typical Hollywood sequel problem of being too rushed and budgeting a bunch of resources before a screenplay or even a basic plot is written. And, the biggest flaw for me now with the series is that there is really no burning reason to bother seeing the next film.


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> Super late to respond, but keep in mind that the detonator also falls the same direction as the bombs when the character kicks the ladder. was there a motor pushing that downward as well?



Literally every ship in the entire Star Wars universe has had interior gravity. 

(I think, maybe there's a counterexample in the prequels somewhere)

I'm with the non-zealots here that the movie has flaws. I'd give it about a 7/10 and I think all those top 10 of the year lists that include it are f'in CRAZY. I wouldn't even put it above a couple of the big CGI blockbusters I saw this year, though I do give it credit for being a bit more ambitious thematically/visually.


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> Literally every ship in the entire Star Wars universe has had interior gravity.


So then why have a motor to push bombs downward? It seems like a one-or-the-other situation to me. When a ship explodes, the bombs go every direction that is not downward. It seems "cheap," just like a lot of nitpicks about the movie. I usually wouldn't waste too much time on something as insignificant as this, but I happen to be a nerd, so here we go...

https://i.stack.imgur.com/pZMR3.png

So the artificial gravity holds the person in their seat. The bombadier was not in a seat nor anywhere near a seat nor where she was supposed to be situated on the ship. The pilot, though somehow came out of the pilot's seat and wound up displaced onto the floor of the cockpit. Just from a logical standpoint, it doesn't make that much sense, but it's a nitpick, yet, if you try to find an answer by purchasing these visual dictionaries and encyclopediae associated with the films (the above was from the TFA Incredible Cross Sections book), you just get into these really esoteric little factoids and stuff that totally don't support what you see in the films. So long range ships need special force disrupters in order to make the jump to light speed without liquifying the people on board...ok, what about short range ships, like the one depicted? Say that antigravity technology is just cheap enough that every ship has it - that'd be fine, but that's not what these supplimentary books say, they say "The gravitoactive constituents of these devices are subnuclear knots of spacetime made in enormous unmanned power refineries encompassing black holes."

Whatever, it's Star Wars, right?

Well, yeah, but the irritating thing is the wishy-washiness of it all. The gravity works when it's convenient for the storytellers, but then sometimes it doesn't work, like in the infamous scene with Leia. Why wasn't there gravity then? Either have gravity or not. If you have it for some weird scenes, okay, I can ignore it, but then when you do other weird scenes, there is not gravity pulling stuff toward the ship, and that's when I have a problem. "Do or do not." It's a nitpick, I agree, but there were just so many in this film that I felt annoyed by all of them.

The OT has plenty of stuff that's just as goofy, but it all ends up paying off. Everything in Ep IV falls so perfectly and coincidentally into place in the plot so that the Rebels can destroy the Death Star, but it gets pulled off, crippling the Empire. In Ep V, it seems like a logical place the Rebellion would be in following those cirumstances. In Ep VI, the Rebllion completely destroys the Empire, so, end of story. Ep VII seemed to have undone some of the story from Ep VI and now Ep VIII seems to be ignoring a lot of what happened in Ep VII as well as the OT, so the overall feeling I get is that whatever happens in one movie doesn't really affect anything that happens in other movies, and that's definitely not a good place to be in with a franchise with this many films.


----------



## synrgy

Wait.. Where was the gravity in the Leia scene? I'm not sure I understand what you mean, there.

Also, here's the same kind of* bombs being dropped in space in ESB:



*(according to wikis, etc)


----------



## myrtorp

About half way through I was thinking "wtf is this crap?" But the end fight made up for it a bit. It was the worst of the new movies but ok. 
I only watch movies at the theatre like 2-3 times a year and every year the price goes up. By this rate I will probably skip the release and get the blue Rey later since im rarely super hyped about catching it as soon as possible.


----------



## synrgy

This is only semi-related (emphasis mine) to the thread, but I thought it was worth sharing:

https://geektyrant.com/news/alec-gu...-he-hated-working-on-star-wars-in-1976-letter



> My dear Anne,
> 
> I have returned to London this evening for my stint at the studio for the rest of the week. Can't say I'm enjoying the film — new *rubbish dialogue* reaches me every other day on wages of pink paper — and none of it makes my character clear or even bearable. I just think, thankfully, of the lovely bread, which will help me keep going until next April even if 'Yahoo' collapses in a week.
> 
> I must off to studio and work with a dwarf (very sweet, — and he has to wash in a bidet) and your fellow countrymen Mark Hamill and Tennyson (that can't be right) Ford — Ellison (? — No!*) — well, a rangy, languid young man who is probably intelligent and amusing. But Oh, God, God, they make me feel ninety — and treat me as if I was 106.
> 
> Love,
> Alec


----------



## wankerness

bostjan said:


> So then why have a motor to push bombs downward? It seems like a one-or-the-other situation to me. When a ship explodes, the bombs go every direction that is not downward. It seems "cheap," just like a lot of nitpicks about the movie. I usually wouldn't waste too much time on something as insignificant as this, but I happen to be a nerd, so here we go...
> 
> https://i.stack.imgur.com/pZMR3.png
> 
> So the artificial gravity holds the person in their seat. The bombadier was not in a seat nor anywhere near a seat nor where she was supposed to be situated on the ship. The pilot, though somehow came out of the pilot's seat and wound up displaced onto the floor of the cockpit. Just from a logical standpoint, it doesn't make that much sense, but it's a nitpick, yet, if you try to find an answer by purchasing these visual dictionaries and encyclopediae associated with the films (the above was from the TFA Incredible Cross Sections book), you just get into these really esoteric little factoids and stuff that totally don't support what you see in the films. So long range ships need special force disrupters in order to make the jump to light speed without liquifying the people on board...ok, what about short range ships, like the one depicted? Say that antigravity technology is just cheap enough that every ship has it - that'd be fine, but that's not what these supplimentary books say, they say "The gravitoactive constituents of these devices are subnuclear knots of spacetime made in enormous unmanned power refineries encompassing black holes."
> 
> Whatever, it's Star Wars, right?
> 
> Well, yeah, but the irritating thing is the wishy-washiness of it all. The gravity works when it's convenient for the storytellers, but then sometimes it doesn't work, like in the infamous scene with Leia. Why wasn't there gravity then? Either have gravity or not. If you have it for some weird scenes, okay, I can ignore it, but then when you do other weird scenes, there is not gravity pulling stuff toward the ship, and that's when I have a problem. "Do or do not." It's a nitpick, I agree, but there were just so many in this film that I felt annoyed by all of them.
> 
> The OT has plenty of stuff that's just as goofy, but it all ends up paying off. Everything in Ep IV falls so perfectly and coincidentally into place in the plot so that the Rebels can destroy the Death Star, but it gets pulled off, crippling the Empire. In Ep V, it seems like a logical place the Rebellion would be in following those cirumstances. In Ep VI, the Rebllion completely destroys the Empire, so, end of story. Ep VII seemed to have undone some of the story from Ep VI and now Ep VIII seems to be ignoring a lot of what happened in Ep VII as well as the OT, so the overall feeling I get is that whatever happens in one movie doesn't really affect anything that happens in other movies, and that's definitely not a good place to be in with a franchise with this many films.



I am VERY confused as to how you are trying to find holes in this, these are the basic laws of dumb sci-0fi. None of these things seem to contradict anything in, well, every silly sci-fi thing ever (Star Wars, Star Trek, etc)

1) All the ships have artificial gravity inside of them, hence why people can walk around inside of them (in every movie)
2) bombs are going outside of the ship and thus need the kinetic energy of the motors to make them continue to go the desired way once they leave the ship
3) leia was in zero g after the window/wall was destroyed and broke whatever seal they have and thus she was "outside"


----------



## StevenC

synrgy said:


> This is only semi-related (emphasis mine) to the thread, but I thought it was worth sharing:
> 
> https://geektyrant.com/news/alec-gu...-he-hated-working-on-star-wars-in-1976-letter


It's almost like A New Hope won an Oscar for editing because it wasn't a good film before editing out all the crap that made it too long and didn't add anything.

What's your point? That TLJ is as bad as the unreleased version of ANH that everyone acknowledges was bad?


----------



## bostjan

wankerness said:


> I am VERY confused as to how you are trying to find holes in this, these are the basic laws of dumb sci-0fi. None of these things seem to contradict anything in, well, every silly sci-fi thing ever (Star Wars, Star Trek, etc)
> 
> 1) All the ships have artificial gravity inside of them, hence why people can walk around inside of them (in every movie)
> 2) bombs are going outside of the ship and thus need the kinetic energy of the motors to make them continue to go the desired way once they leave the ship
> 3) leia was in zero g after the window/wall was destroyed and broke whatever seal they have and thus she was "outside"



How is this confusing?

1. I disagree in that I've never seen anyone walking around inside of any of the short-range fighters/bombers in any of the other movies. Especially when you look into the books like the one I cited, which state that the artificial gravity is only supposed to hold the pilot into his or her seat or hold gunners or bombadiers into their turret positions. Assume the book is wrong, and you're back to square one, except for the part where it seemed weird enough in the first place that I had to go look it up in a book. 
2. If the gravity inside of the ship pushes everything downward why wouldn't it work on bombs? It's be exactly the same concept as a motor. If the gravity "turns off" after the bombs leave the ship, they won't simply stop moving, since they are already in motion. If there is some law of physics in the film that says that they would, then the motor wouldn't do squat anyway, since the motor would only push the bombs out then no longer be connected the the bombs. If you watch the motion of the bombs, though, they appear to accelerate as if being dropped on Earth, so neither explanation makes consistent sense. I have no problem with there being different laws of motion or whatever in a film, but I only ask that whatever the laws of this fictional universe be, that they be consistent from one scene to the next.
3. So, let me get this straight. Leia is unaffected by the ship's artificial gravity, because she's outside of the ship. The bombs from the bomber in the other scene were still accelerating though, after they left the bomb bay of the bomber...because...? IDK, maybe it's just the limitations of special effects....but then, one thing that still bothers me, is how Leia can open the door that goes directly between the destroyed bridge and the rest of the ship (without an airlock) with a bunch of folks standing not-so-far-away and it didn't cause a blast from decompression that sucked her and the other people nearby straight out back into space. And if there's no vacuum in this universe, then why'd she get sucked out of the ship moments earlier? It's still just plain inconsistent.

I'm not at all alone in my assessment that there are plot holes. I honestly posted my complaints before I read any reviews or watched any youtube critiques of the film, but afterward, I did do both, and there are tons and tons of people with exactly the same gripes as me, and more gripes. The plot is a mess. That's the general consensus. The character of Luke is generally regarded as a mess as well. Really, outside of horrible plot framework, I thought the action was excellent and that the new characters were pretty cool (although a lot of people hated Rose), so I still enjoyed the movie, but I do recognize a lot of problems with it. After watching it, reflecting on it, seeing other reviews that almost all agree with my assessment here, and looking into some things that bothered me a little, I really do think this is going to kind of be the Halloween 3 of the film series, in that it was overall a good movie but just didn't really live up to all of the hype around the franchise in general and was highly inconsistent with the other films. The thing is that a film in an anthology that took a weird turn almost always spells the end of a franchise.

Was it a better movie than, say Ep I? I think so. But even if it was a better standalone film, I think it ripples a lot more in the Star Wars universe to kind of mess things up. Ep I portrayed Yoda and Obi-Wan pretty consistently as younger versions of who they were in the OT. Most of the other characters were new, or, in the case of Anakin, old characters who were obviously completely different back then, as their character arcs were obviously not yet begun. If Anakin had been portrayed in a way that made it impossible to imagine him growing up to become the #1 or #2 bad-guy-character in film, then there would have been a problem. In Ep VIII, Luke is portrayed in a way that I can accept on its own, but which causes me a great deal of confusion when referencing whence he came in Ep VI. I give a pass because we don't really know what happened to him in between, but it still seems like a weird overall character arc, and therefore, probably, the story of how he got where he is would be more interesting than the story I'm watching at the time. I felt the same way about Ep I - the whole time I was watching it, I was just thinking constantly how it did not seem like the most interesting story they could tell. I think having Ep I be what Ep II ended up being, with some flashbacks to how Obi-Wan and Anakin met in a couple of early scenes, would have been a much more interesting story than a bunch of intergalactic trade policies and a time-wasting Gungan subplot, then an awesome battle with an interestingly mysterious bad-guy character who ultimately gets the throw-away treatment. A lot of this parallels with Ep VIII - especially the irrelevant side plot that seems to take up a third of the run time and ends up being essentially useless, and the big baddie being literally cut out of the rest of the story before we get to find out a damn thing.


----------



## wankerness

StevenC said:


> It's almost like A New Hope won an Oscar for editing because it wasn't a good film before editing out all the crap that made it too long and didn't add anything.
> 
> What's your point? That TLJ is as bad as the unreleased version of ANH that everyone acknowledges was bad?





StevenC said:


> It's almost like A New Hope won an Oscar for editing because it wasn't a good film before editing out all the crap that made it too long and didn't add anything.
> 
> What's your point? That TLJ is as bad as the unreleased version of ANH that everyone acknowledges was bad?



Where does an unreleased version come into this? He hated the finished movies! That famous story about him telling the little obsessed kid to never watch it again is kind of funny (poor kid, though).


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## StevenC

wankerness said:


> Where does an unreleased version come into this? He hated the finished movies! That famous story about him telling the little obsessed kid to never watch it again is kind of funny (poor kid, though).


When you talk about the quality of the film in 1976.


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## wankerness

bostjan said:


> How is this confusing?
> 
> 1. I disagree in that I've never seen anyone walking around inside of any of the short-range fighters/bombers in any of the other movies. Especially when you look into the books like the one I cited, which state that the artificial gravity is only supposed to hold the pilot into his or her seat or hold gunners or bombadiers into their turret positions. Assume the book is wrong, and you're back to square one, except for the part where it seemed weird enough in the first place that I had to go look it up in a book.
> 2. If the gravity inside of the ship pushes everything downward why wouldn't it work on bombs? It's be exactly the same concept as a motor. If the gravity "turns off" after the bombs leave the ship, they won't simply stop moving, since they are already in motion. If there is some law of physics in the film that says that they would, then the motor wouldn't do squat anyway, since the motor would only push the bombs out then no longer be connected the the bombs. If you watch the motion of the bombs, though, they appear to accelerate as if being dropped on Earth, so neither explanation makes consistent sense. I have no problem with there being different laws of motion or whatever in a film, but I only ask that whatever the laws of this fictional universe be, that they be consistent from one scene to the next.
> 3. So, let me get this straight. Leia is unaffected by the ship's artificial gravity, because she's outside of the ship. The bombs from the bomber in the other scene were still accelerating though, after they left the bomb bay of the bomber...because...? IDK, maybe it's just the limitations of special effects....but then, one thing that still bothers me, is how Leia can open the door that goes directly between the destroyed bridge and the rest of the ship (without an airlock) with a bunch of folks standing not-so-far-away and it didn't cause a blast from decompression that sucked her and the other people nearby straight out back into space. And if there's no vacuum in this universe, then why'd she get sucked out of the ship moments earlier? It's still just plain inconsistent.
> 
> I'm not at all alone in my assessment that there are plot holes. I honestly posted my complaints before I read any reviews or watched any youtube critiques of the film, but afterward, I did do both, and there are tons and tons of people with exactly the same gripes as me, and more gripes. The plot is a mess. That's the general consensus. The character of Luke is generally regarded as a mess as well. Really, outside of horrible plot framework, I thought the action was excellent and that the new characters were pretty cool (although a lot of people hated Rose), so I still enjoyed the movie, but I do recognize a lot of problems with it. After watching it, reflecting on it, seeing other reviews that almost all agree with my assessment here, and looking into some things that bothered me a little, I really do think this is going to kind of be the Halloween 3 of the film series, in that it was overall a good movie but just didn't really live up to all of the hype around the franchise in general and was highly inconsistent with the other films. The thing is that a film in an anthology that took a weird turn almost always spells the end of a franchise.
> 
> Was it a better movie than, say Ep I? I think so. But even if it was a better standalone film, I think it ripples a lot more in the Star Wars universe to kind of mess things up. Ep I portrayed Yoda and Obi-Wan pretty consistently as younger versions of who they were in the OT. Most of the other characters were new, or, in the case of Anakin, old characters who were obviously completely different back then, as their character arcs were obviously not yet begun. If Anakin had been portrayed in a way that made it impossible to imagine him growing up to become the #1 or #2 bad-guy-character in film, then there would have been a problem. In Ep VIII, Luke is portrayed in a way that I can accept on its own, but which causes me a great deal of confusion when referencing whence he came in Ep VI. I give a pass because we don't really know what happened to him in between, but it still seems like a weird overall character arc, and therefore, probably, the story of how he got where he is would be more interesting than the story I'm watching at the time. I felt the same way about Ep I - the whole time I was watching it, I was just thinking constantly how it did not seem like the most interesting story they could tell. I think having Ep I be what Ep II ended up being, with some flashbacks to how Obi-Wan and Anakin met in a couple of early scenes, would have been a much more interesting story than a bunch of intergalactic trade policies and a time-wasting Gungan subplot, then an awesome battle with an interestingly mysterious bad-guy character who ultimately gets the throw-away treatment. A lot of this parallels with Ep VIII - especially the irrelevant side plot that seems to take up a third of the run time and ends up being essentially useless, and the big baddie being literally cut out of the rest of the story before we get to find out a damn thing.



1. I...dunno on this one. Did anyone ever drop a wrench or something inside? Probably not if the nerd resources don't have any info. I just assumed they functioned like all the bigger ships since why not.
2. I am not a physicist! If they were pulled towards the floor of this bomber, and there WASN'T a floor, I have no clue what would happen. I'm not a physicist, and likely neither was anyone who worked on that section. Maybe the motors were necessary to make stuff go straight down, maybe they weren't. If you're nitpicking this hard about such an irrelevant detail, then clearly you just hated the scene so much that that was where your mind was going, so that's a dramatic failure on the part of the movie. Either way, though, this reminds me of MST3K's theme song.
3. Leia was unaffected because she wasn't propelled out of the ship via motor? HELL IF I KNOW. It's a movie. None of it made me question anything. It all seemed like regular movie physics to me. I think this kind of crap happened in Star Trek movies. Maybe it didn't. Seemed consistent to me. The airlock thing is the only WTF there, Ill give you that one, though we've never seen how they work in any Star Wars movies as far as I know, so maybe they don't work how they do in the Alien movies and thus don't need all this depressurization cycling with a central chamber, etc. Who knows! It's a dumb fantasy.

Halloween 3 is one of the most entertaining stupid movies of all time. I don't know if this one lives up!


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## bostjan

Haha, it's definitely a nitpick. Like I said though, there were *a lot* of these little nitpicks for me. Nothing really like stood out that much during the scene, you know, but they were enough that I noticed them, and, after more than a dozen things like this got noticed, they just started to get annoying. It's like when you notice a camera or microphone in a shot during a movie - the first time, you might smirk a little, the second time you notice it, you might giggle, but if you notice it happening a lot, you'll start getting annoyed, thinking to yourself "damn, they could afford to hire a guy to check stuff like this?!" and if the movie is honestly really good, who the hell cares? But if the movie starts to drag or something, then the shoddy little stuff starts getting annoying.

For me, TLJ seemed to mostly have these little annoying things early on and then again toward the end, mostly, during the parts where the movie was super entertaining, so it should be easy to ignore them and move on, but that middle part of the movie, blech, between the casino planet and the OJ-style super-slow chase battle and the stupid mutiny stuff, for what felt like an hour of the movie, I was just hopelessly waiting for things to start moving again.

To anyone who loved this movie: cool, glad you enjoyed it. To anyone wondering why I'm hot and cold about it, I think I made my case for explaining why I feel that way. To anyone who hated it: sorry about that... it must suck to have a story you loved for years or more get turned on its head this sort of way.


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## synrgy

StevenC said:


> What's your point? That TLJ is as bad as the unreleased version of ANH that everyone acknowledges was bad?



My purpose was irrespective of TLJ. TLJ had nothing to do with it, as I attempted to qualify in my preface ("only semi-related...").

Points =

Lucas's dialog was always shit
They were still changing the original film _as they were filming it_ (in counter to your prior claim that Lucas had 9 episodes all detailed out from the outset)
The originals weren't nearly as good as our nostalgia gives them credit for.


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## StevenC

synrgy said:


> My purpose was irrespective of TLJ. TLJ had nothing to do with it, as I attempted to qualify in my preface ("only semi-related...").
> 
> Points =
> 
> Lucas's dialog was always shit
> They were still changing the original film _as they were filming it_ (in counter to your prior claim that Lucas had 9 episodes all detailed out from the outset)
> The originals weren't nearly as good as our nostalgia gives them credit for.


I mean, if you want to talk about ANH in a vacuum maybe a TLJ thread isn't the place for it.

Counterpoints:

No one's defending Lucas's dialogue.
Making changes as you go doesn't preclude having an overarching plan. I didn't say he had 9 films written out from the beginning, but that he had plans for a 9 film saga.
Again, in a TLJ thread, the only purpose of degrading the original films is to try and lift this one up. Even on its own this is a bad film. Also, ESB is exactly as good as it gets credit for and I haven't claimed ANH to be some untouchable masterpiece, because I don't think it is. In fact I'll go on record as saying ANH is a flawed, but good film that's much better for the existence of ESB.


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## synrgy

I get the impression that you might think my posts are entirely directed at _you_. Some parts are, but most aren't. I bring up flaws in the original trilogy in response to a general, common thread I'm seeing over the 'Net, especially in Disqus comments after related GeekTyrant articles: "The new films don't respect (or aren't as good as, etc) the original trilogy" aka 'they're raping my childhood' or 'they destroyed Luke's character', etc. (To be clear, I know this is not _your_ position, and I'm not trying to suggest otherwise.)

My stance is similar to yours: That the originals are flawed, but still _good,_ though not necessarily _great_. I'm just speaking to a general sense I get that 'we' hold the original trilogy up as an impossible standard which even they - if viewed objectively - fail to live up to.


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## StevenC

Yeah, that last bit came out more defensive than I meant.

But a large part of making a sequel is acknowledging what came before it. There's a line you have to tread, when making a good sequel, of not being too like the other films and not being to different. Like, all Rogue One had to do was show some Storm Troopers and Death Stars, and not mess up the canon or chronology to much to be an acceptable Star Wars film. As a direct sequel, TFA and TLJ it has to continue the story and make logical decisions with the characters we've already met.


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## KnightBrolaire

https://www.gamespot.com/articles/d...471&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=facebook
so apparently Johnson said that Abrams might retcon the decision to make Rey's parents nobodies. He also says that Kylo saying her parents were nobodies could have been misdirection. I am kind of curious if Abrams will embrace making her parents irrelevant, or if he's going to make em one of the skywalkers or something.


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## synrgy

I try to be vague enough to avoid 'spoiler' tags, here, but if anyone feels I cross a line, I'll go back and edit. Just lemme know..

I can only guess:

I think Abrams might have had something in mind when he set up 7, but necessarily gave up 'ownership' of the outcome when he declined to do 8. I also think Johnson consciously/smartly left it open (enough) for whoever made 9: He's right, in that Kylo was well motivated to lie to her in that moment for any number of reasons that all serve the story and moment: Kylo recognizes it's his only shot to turn her, so he tries to use her largest vulnerability point to weaken her resolve. That was my interpretation before Johnson said it in interviews, anyway.

I guess what I mean is, since Johnson left it 'open' (enough), and JJ is a lock for 9 -- and already had a story ready (and approved by Disney) within days of TLJ's release, I'm guessing that JJ's original plan (whatever it was) will still be in effect. 8 only needed to (and did) hold up a few 'bullet points' (Rey's Force usage grows/improves, Finn and Poe each survive new experiences) for JJ's setup to remain effectively intact.

Unfortunately, because it was such a huge part of 7, the issue of Rey's parentage will remain clutch for me in how well 7 will hold-up, retroactively. Presuming we get more than what 8 gave us, I'll remain a fan of 7. If JJ sticks to Kylo's account as factual, that's gonna sour me on 7 quite a bit.


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## bostjan

synrgy said:


> I get the impression that you might think my posts are entirely directed at _you_. Some parts are, but most aren't. I bring up flaws in the original trilogy in response to a general, common thread I'm seeing over the 'Net, especially in Disqus comments after related GeekTyrant articles: "The new films don't respect (or aren't as good as, etc) the original trilogy" aka 'they're raping my childhood' or 'they destroyed Luke's character', etc. (To be clear, I know this is not _your_ position, and I'm not trying to suggest otherwise.)
> 
> My stance is similar to yours: That the originals are flawed, but still _good,_ though not necessarily _great_. I'm just speaking to a general sense I get that 'we' hold the original trilogy up as an impossible standard which even they - if viewed objectively - fail to live up to.



Not respecting the source material of an adaptation or a sequel, though, is an entirely different issue than being better or worse than the source material.

I love the Lord of the Rings novels, and I really enjoyed the films, because they seemed to be good films, and because they were surprisingly true to the tone of the novels, despite the fact that films rarely if ever are. I think Game of Thrones is a counter example where the show is only sort of true to the source material, but, in many ways, better than the source material, but it still does a swell job representing the characters. Then there were messes like Dexter, that started out with a very dense nihilistic tone and mood with dark complex characters and then the show later on took the characters, tone, and the mood of the show into a totally different direction, and it ended up coming off as a horrible decision.

A lot of SW fans seem to be very upset about the tone and the direction they took the characters in TLJ. That doesn't mean that the OT films were better made, it just means that those fans had their expectations for the series torn apart. I think messing with people's expectations is a cool move, but I noted that the payoff of this was kind of, well, anti-climactic, so I could see why many viewers thought it wasn't great.

Ultimately, how good a film is really just depends on whether people liked it or not. TLJ has a lower IMDB user rating than any of the OT films, and also much lower than TFA. That means people didn't like it as much as those other films. I suppose you can argue why it was better than those or whatever, but it's not going to be an easy argument with that in mind. Add in the fact that most IMDB user scores start out high and then stabilize at a lower number once the film drops out of theaters for a little while. I'll go ahead and predict that this one will stay well above Ep I (TPM) and well below Ep VI (RotJ), though.


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## synrgy

The thing about audience scores is that they're inherently flawed: They represent only those who volunteered to share an opinion. Having worked in many variations of 'service' over most of my 20-ish year career, I've learned that pleased customers are silent customers; one generally only hears from customers that have complaints. Sure, we see the occasional 'great job' note, but there's like _one_ of those per every _ten thousand_ 'I'm entitled to special attention, damn it!'


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## bostjan

synrgy said:


> The thing about audience scores is that they're inherently flawed: They represent only those who volunteered to share an opinion. Having worked in many variations of 'service' over most of my 20-ish year career, I've learned that pleased customers are silent customers; one generally only hears from customers that have complaints. Sure, we see the occasional 'great job' note, but there's like _one_ of those per every _ten thousand_ 'I'm entitled to special attention, damn it!'



You have three types of reviewers: A) I LOVE THIS I HAVE TO REVIEW IT!!! B) I HATE THIS I HAVE TO REVIEW IT!!!! and C) I want to provide an honest review of this. Whereas with services and products, you get an overwhelming majority of A and B and very little of C, with media, that's just not really the case. If people are talking about a media thing, such as a book, film, television show, or band, then people want to talk about it. With a film, the first 100 days or so are going to be dominated by A, so we will see, but to write off IMDB ratings as a measure of how much people like a film, categorically?

What would you propose instead of IMDB ratings, my opinion, or your opinion, as a gauge for public opinion of the film?


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## synrgy

I mean, I wouldn't suggest there _is _an alternative.

Scores are useless, to me, but I recognize that's _just me_. A movie getting a 2 or a 8 doesn't help me understand if _I_ might like it. For better or worse, I mostly rely on plot synopsis, trailers, and a bit of additional merit (or demerit) based on recognition of director, cast, and/or studio.

There's nearly always a gap between 'critic' and 'audience' scores, and - wrongly or otherwise - I think the reason for that is the willingness (or lack thereof) of the audience to _think_. Exhibit A = Transformers movies are STILL. HAPPENING.


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## wankerness

I would say scores which are being bombed by mad people with multiple accounts are the only meaningless ones out there.

I generally trust critic ratings unless it's the kind of movie that only certain critics will appreciate. I guess what I'm saying is reading reviews, especially from people you are familiar with the taste of, is vastly more important than a number. But, in general, RT and meta critic are very useful to go on.

I disregard audience scores with almost everything cause they almost never diverge from the critic ratings in the direction I agree with. Ex, movies I dislike with bad reviews almost always have higher audience ratings, and challenging movies I like usually set off the audiences that walk in unprepared (ex, Mother, Neon Demon). Jigsaw was mentioned in here as an example of when the audience score is definitely more useful, however, and I agree with that.

Re:Rey's parents, give me a break. If she's just yet another in the family of like five important Jedis in these movies, that's a million times less interesting to me than the "nobody" explanation. Either we have a standalone character with her own personality and ability, or we have yet another in the endless stream of hero stories like Harry Potter etc where you're born special and your parents were magic heroes and blah fuck. I guess if it makes the fanboys like this retroactively and stop complaining about it then sure.

Considering only Leia was allowed to reproduce as far as "characters with the force" go, it sure seems to make it inevitable.

If she's Darth Vader's test tube baby that might make it worth it.


----------



## StevenC

wankerness said:


> Re:Rey's parents, give me a break. If she's just yet another in the family of like five important Jedis in these movies, that's a million times less interesting to me than the "nobody" explanation. Either we have a standalone character with her own personality and ability, or we have yet another in the endless stream of hero stories like Harry Potter etc where you're born special and your parents were magic heroes and blah fuck. I guess if it makes the fanboys like this retroactively and stop complaining about it then sure..


I don't know about this. Snoke said Rey became powerful in the force to counter Kylo. I don't see how this form of predestination is better. That's my biggest complaint about this reveal: it's a twist for the sake of it.


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## wankerness

I dont recall any hints in episode 7 that would suggest she was the kid of anyone important apart from audience expectation after the OT. Were there any?

This reminds me, was it ever confirmed that Darth Vader = Luke's father wasn't a retcon in the OT? That always seemed like it. I know there were always stories like "oh, George Lucas wrote out 9 episodes right at the beginning," but I KNOW that was a load. The dialogue in IV sure implies it wasn't at all planned at the time, even in the case of a hypothetical sequel.


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## synrgy

Story-wise, I'd prefer she just be an anomaly, but they did all those 'hint, hint!' scenes in 7, and if those prove out to just be prototypical Lindeloffian misdirection for the sake of, that'll be frustrating, for me.

I've only seen 8 the one time, but I still feel like Luke was handled perfectly. Kylo and Rey stuff, also pretty great. The rest, I could take or leave.

I don't think they could have done it any way where that _wasn't _going to be an issue, though, because the ending of 7 hamstrung 8: It was going to be The Luke Movie. He couldn't _not_ be in it, and his character is so large that if he's in it, _everything else _is secondary.

In contrast, 7 had full freedom to set itself up from scratch. Han's interim backstory wasn't mysterious like Luke's; it was all laid out with a few simple lines of dialog. He 'lost' his kid and his marriage, so he went back to smuggling. (Badly.) That allowed 7 to be A Movie With Han, instead of The Han Movie.

So maybe that's a failure on the part of 8, or maybe it's on the part of 7? I'm not sure, really. If you think about it, JJ did kinda give Johnson (or whomever else would have done it) a bag of shit to hold. ANH, and even TPM, played things safe with the first movie being 'self-contained'. TFA was like 'screw all y'all, I'm ending this on the cliffhanger of cliffhangers!'

Just thinking out loud, per usual. Sorry for rambling.


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## synrgy

wankerness said:


> Were there any?
> 
> This reminds me, was it ever confirmed that Darth Vader = Luke's father wasn't a retcon in the OT?



"It passed _from father to son, _and now it calls to _you_." I mean, WTF, Maz Kanata? Why mention the lineage in such a blatantly suggestive way, if it has nothing to do with Rey?

Initial searching finds multiple sources corroborating that in initial drafts of _both_ ANH and ESB, Anakin and Vader were two separate characters.


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## marcwormjim

I know the gravity nitpicks were on the last page, but I’d like a fan theory as to why Carrie Fisher’s mass didn’t pull the _ship _to _her. _I have my own hypothesis about how she only accidentally pulled herself into the ship while she was trying to snort up the salt planet (the guy obviously only said it was salt so she wouldn’t try to snort it all), but I want to know what you guys think. Also, what do you think about Rey’s never having bathed in her life being why she has so many midi-chlorians growing on her?


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## bostjan

Yeah, the idea that Vader = Anakin was most likely added after Ep IV was made.

I agree that fans are being stupid about Rey's parents, Snoke's origin, etc. No one should care as much about where someone came from before the film than what that character is going to do in the film, but whatever, I don't think people _here_ are really making that gripe. My big gripe is the overall bad/boring storytelling in the middle parts of the movie, and, to a lesser extent, the plot holes I mentioned.


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## MFB

I'm pretty sure that the general takeaway once the foaming at the mouth subsides is



> I've only seen 8 the one time, but I still feel like Luke was handled perfectly. Kylo and Rey stuff, also pretty great. The rest, I could take or leave.



This was how I felt after my 2nd viewing, but I could straight up toss everything not related to that.

It starts strong, albeit with a slight stumble with the bombers being basically useless unless escorted - but I forgive it since as a whole it's a cool opening and part of Poe's arc for maturing; then nose-dives with Finn/Rose doing nothing helpful while Rey trains with Luke and Kylo tries to find them, and ends strong with the battle on Ho- I mean, Crait.


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## synrgy

The buddy I saw TLJ with has been texting me a theory of Rey being Obi-Wan's grandkid.

I remember the 'she's Obi-Wan's kid' theories making the rounds in the immediate wake of TFW, but I knew then that the timeline made them implausible. A grandchild, however, kinda checks out. Rey is 19 in TFW; Obi-Wan would have been 87-ish. Subtract Rey's age, then another 20-30 years for her parents to be of parenting age, and you end up in the middle of his exile period, preceding ANH by nearly a decade.

Similarly fun thought exercise: Vader was 46 in ROTJ. Luke caught him in the middle of a midlife crisis. Murdering Palpatine was like buying a Porsche.


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## wankerness

How, exactly, would changing the identity of Rey's parents in any way have affected her character? It's 100% irrelevant to anything she does and as a result making them 100% irrelevant people seems to follow.


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## synrgy

It wasn't my choice to make the question central to Rey's journey through TFW and the first three-quarters-ish of TLJ.

But I need to underscore again that this is just fun for me. There's no rage here, either way; I just like playing the prediction game in between releases, I guess.


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## bostjan

Someone on youtube posted a theory that Rey's parents were nobodies/junkers a while before the film came out. I don't understand the hate directed toward that idea. Anakin was nobody, Han Solo was a smuggler, R2D2 was one of a dime-a-bushel crate of astromech droids, and no one cares. Now everyone expects each character has to be connected to someone else, and I think it's ridiculous. I really really want Rey to be someone whose parents are nobodies, not because I think the whole "the force balances itself" idea (I actually kind of hate that), but because I'm so sick of fans getting uber-upset for all of the wrong reasons. I already wanted Snoke to be just Snoke for a long time, just because the idea of him being Darth Jar-Jar or some reincarnation of Sipho Dias or Plo Koon's stepbrother's favourite college professor's former roommate's nephew or whatever would be unimaginative and annoying. The character is Snoke, and we know nothing about him expect that he looks like nutsack after a bad vasectomy, and that he's really old and that he has a lot of power. That's not enough to go off and create any compelling fan theories. I think there's more evidence that Maz Kanata is connected to Lando than there is to connect Snoke with anyone other than Kylo Ren. Maybe JJ Abrams will retcon Snoke's backstory with Yoda's, such that Yoda was one of Snoke's boogers when he got midiclorionucleosis as a teenager? That'd be entertaining at least.

I'm much more interested in where they take the story next. Will Kylo Ren be redeemed and become good? Nah, I don't think so, although if Rey goes evil in Ep IX, I would love to see Kylo flip to the light side and fight her. That would have been an interesting twist, except a bunch of people already predicted it, so it'd actually just be a sort of pandering, probably. I think the status quo storyline for Ep. IX, at this point, would be Rey rallies the resistance with Luke Skywalker being their "Remember the Alamo," then there's a big showdown between her and Kylo, then Rey and the Resistance win and they live happily ever after the end.

What I'd like to see would be (totally not a fan theory, just my personal opinion) a last installment where the First Order, led by Kylo Ren, destroys the Resistance and brings order to the galaxy, like the Empire did, and then it turned out not to be as bad as everyone thought after all the fighting was over. It'd fit the whole "Star Wars is like poetry, it repeats and rhymes" trope, because, in the Prequels, it gets you routing against the separatists, but then the separatists end up being the Rebels in the OT. Too sneaky? I'd dig it, but there's no way that test audiences would go for that.


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## MFB

Prediction for ep. IX

During the final battle between Rey and Kylo Ren, she can't bring herself to kill him despite knowing he'll never stop trying to either kill her or convert her; and in the end, he mis-handled his lightsaber and ends up falling on his own sword. I'm thinking something like him force-pulling his saber back to him and she side-steps and it ends up sticking him, very Frieza-esque. Rey doesn't strike me as someone who could strike him down knowing there's still a chance for him, so unless he goes full scorched Earth and forcefully (no pun intended) takes someone from her (perhaps he does end Leia?), she'll never be able to.


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## synrgy

To clarify my buddy's theory, Rey's parents would still be 'nobodies'. Middle-aged Kenobi would have had a relationship with somebody who fled when she found out she was pregnant, over fear of Ben's potential exposure. She - a 'nobody' - ends up in another relationship with some other 'nobody', whom young Rey would have known as 'Dad' (Maybe DJ -- the Benicio Del Toro character?). They get into trouble; debts/drugs/whatever. Eventually, they sell Rey to Unkar Plott on Jakku in return for an 'escape' to a new life.

And - in the theory - Ben never even knew he got the lady pregnant. Fast forward 10-ish years, he bumps into Luke, and then mere [hours?] later, he turns into a Force Ghost, whom we last saw at the end of ROTJ, merrily gathered around Vader's burning carcass with his buddies Yoda-Ghost and Anakin-ghost.*

It would explain them programming Sir Alec Guiness's voice saying "Rey" into the lightsaber flashback in TFA, and where Rey gets her 'Force Sensitivity', without retconning that her parents are 'nobody'.

To be clear, I'm not saying I _want_ this to be the case. I'm only saying that as a theory, I think it stands up to some scrutiny.

Side Idea: Can we please hire Taika Waititi to direct _The Force Ghost Movie_ starring Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda?


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## wankerness

Based on what happened with the Han Solo movie, as soon as it got too Waititi-ish they'd fire him and replace him with a director with no personality.


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## bostjan

synrgy said:


> It would explain them programming Sir Alec Guiness's voice saying "Rey" into the lightsaber flashback in TFA, and where Rey gets her 'Force Sensitivity', without retconning that her parents are 'nobody'.



Exact same reasoning could be applied to conclude that Rey is Yoda's daughter. 



synrgy said:


> Side Idea: Can we please hire Taika Waititi to direct _The Force Ghost Movie_ starring Anakin/Obi-Wan/Yoda?



Ep IX might become the force ghost movie.


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## thesnowdog

wankerness said:


> How, exactly, would changing the identity of Rey's parents in any way have affected her character? It's 100% irrelevant to anything she does and as a result making them 100% irrelevant people seems to follow.



So you're not a fan of Who Do You Think You Are? then?


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## wankerness

I'm a huge fan of Larry David's reaction to his slave-owning relatives. Rrr, I guess that was on "Finding Your Roots." Why are there multiple of that stupid concept?


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## Lorcan Ward

I finally saw this last night. Loved anything to do with Rey, Luke, Kylo Ren, Snoke and some of the ships. Hated everything to do with Fin, Po, Pink haired woman, most of the resistance plot and the casino planet side quest. I can see why fans were so divided on this film. 

Way too much spoon feeding for my liking but thats the way most blockbuster films and shows are going these days.

Skellig Michael looked amazing. Probably missed my chance to ever see it now that its become an even bigger tourist hotspot.


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## bostjan

Lorcan Ward said:


> Way too much spoon feeding for my liking but thats the way most blockbuster films and shows are going these days.



Word.

I miss that brief period in the late 90's/early 2000's when there were a lot of films with lots of ambiguous meaning. Now we're at the point where, in franchises like "Pirates of the Caribbean," every joke/gag has to be repeated to the audience and then explained, and every dramatic twist has to be explained to the audience by an onscreen character after it's already seen happening. It's like Hollywood hired Tommy Two-Times from Goodfellas to write the script, then hired Captain Obvious to direct the film.

I think that maybe the Casino planet stuff could have maybe worked if it had been done well, but instead it suffered heavily from the deliberate lack of subtlety. "We have to do something, because they abuse animals... see" <show clip of animals being abused> "And the abuse of less fortunate people" <show clip of child worker in squalor>. Same thing could have been said more eloquently without any dialogue.



Spoiler



Imagine if they had done the Luke scenes at the end the same way, where Mark Hamill read a narration over the entire thing about how he was using his force powers to project a hologram. It would have really spoiled the entire scene. As it was, I think they could have even done better with that scene by showing a little less.



So, yeah, it's a twofold problem, because showing so much unnecessary stuff slows the pace of the film, making it less exciting, and also makes the film unnecessarily long. I guess it's a Star Wars film, so you expect it to be 50% longer than the average feature film, but it doesn't *have to be*.


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## odibrom

Have you already seen this 16bit recreation of Kilo and Luke? ooops spoiler... come on, the movie is on for 3 weeks now so...



Spoiler


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## A-Branger

"ooh noo those poor horses thinggy are getting abused..." they are bad people for making them run in betting races.... and how bad they treat the kids slaves, because Iw as one of them...."

*goes to "free" the animals....*

"yay"..... and they left.

-animals are still stuck on the island, so they would be caught and put into racing in no time.... like the 5 of them out of who knows how many
-all the racing facilities are still in perfect working order, nothing really changed
-all the kids are still slaves workers. No kids were set free or anything remotely close... oh, ONE kid got a ring!, not like it helps for anything really

yay for Finn and that chick.


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