# Help me with Meshuggah 8 string specs.



## Sponge (Feb 19, 2009)

Alrighty folks,

Help me out here. I'm curious as to scale length, 30 or 30.5?

Ash wings maple neck thru?
Lundgrens?

Neck radius, profile?

Basically, can you do an autopsy and tell me about the guts?

I'm looking to acquire another 8 string very soon and want to try something different. Basically, take a bit of this and a bit of that from favorite players' tones and see what happens.

Thanks and I must say, this forum rules!


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## Scarpie (Feb 19, 2009)

i never did quite understand the craze. what can you do with 8 strings at 30.5" scale that you can't do at 30"??


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## Sponge (Feb 19, 2009)

Physics! Length and tension will make a difference in tone.


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## plyta (Feb 19, 2009)

Look here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/78918-everytime-i-play-these-guitars.html


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## synrgy (Feb 19, 2009)

Scarpie said:


> i never did quite understand the craze. what can you do with 8 strings at 30.5" scale that you can't do at 30"??


 
Like he said -- physics. Take a look at the difference in average string tension betwen a .056 and a .060 gauge string tuned to the same pitch, and you pretty much have your answer. I dunno if I could handle anything bigger than 30" though..


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## Variant (Feb 19, 2009)

Sponge said:


> Alrighty folks,
> 
> Help me out here. I'm curious as to scale length, 30 or 30.5?
> 
> ...




Mesh don't talk an awful lot about their guitars, and they've been wrong about them on occasion.  Though their tech has said a few things that have been passed on. I believe the current ones being used (the gray stained ones) are 30.5" in scale length, are neck-through construction, and have alder bodies. Fingerboard radius is probably pretty flat like the sevens, 430 mm / 16". The single bridge pup is a Lundgren M8, and the bridge is an Fixed Edge 8 or whatever Ibanez calls it.



Scarpie said:


> i never did quite understand the craze. what can you do with 8 strings at 30.5" scale that you can't do at 30"??



Honestly, the tension wouldn't be _*that*_ much different... you're splitting hairs here, IMHO. Three extra frets from a 25.5" scale would be 30 1/3" if that's ones logic. And really, that's generally to the center of the intonation adjustment, so if you measure the functional scale of the eighth string from the intonation point to the nut, it's likely a little longer.


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 19, 2009)

i don&#180;t see that much of a point in getting the extra half inch in there, i&#180;m actually thinking about going 31" scale on a custom guitar myself. why only go half-way? 

and i don&#180;t see the point in copying their guitars down to the smallest detail, what if your hands and taste aren&#180;t the same as theirs?

i would go 30" or 31" scale, alder or ash body, bolt-on neck (if you like neck thru or set neck, then sure, different strokes. neck-through is pretty bright though.), BKP 8 string humbucker in the bridge, and either another bkp or a bass-sized q-tuner in the neck.

for just straight out metal, many people like flat radius boards, or at least close to flat ones.

btw, as i just learned in the other thread in here, their RG 8 strings don&#180;t have edge-fx 8 bridges, they have custom-made fixed lo-pro bridges made from two bridges that were cut in half (obviously not literally in half though) and then welded together or something 

i find the specifics aren&#180;t too important when looking for tone. the important thing is the general idea. bright woods, bright and hot and tight pickups, and long scale length. the details should be up to you, not some other guitarists whose music you like. i think i&#180;d hate playing the guitars or rigs of most guitarists that i like


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## AVH (Feb 19, 2009)

Ryan got most of it....I've been fortunate enough to play all of their 8's (save for the two shorter scale LACS 8's w/piezos Marten has at home) a few times, and have taken good pics and measurements of these.....

The RG8's: 5pc maple/wenge neck-through, 30.5", alder wings, deeply dyed rosewood fb, 16.5" radius, ash headstock overlay, single truss rod, earlier ('03) batch white slash logo - later batch ('05) silver foil logo, Sperzel open gear tuners, Lundgren M8, bridges are actually melded & fixed lo-pro 8's (_not Edge III FX-8's),_ 500k CTS pots and switchcraft barrel jacks. 

The newer Iceman 8's are similar, but differ in some ways: same neck/fb woods but with ash wings, two truss rods, standard closed Gotoh tuners, and the newer Edge III-FX8 bridges. As cool as they might look, they actually don't care much for these -> these guitars are neck-heavy as hell, the upper point on the body tends to dig into their gut when head banging, etc, and the tone is not as strident as with the RG's - due to the cheaper metal, less mass, and higher mounted body anchors of the EdgeIII - and I concur after playing them too. The RG's are a little better. 

Oh, and just a teaser: wait til you see Marten's next custom 8 - you guys will shit yourselves, it's awesome.

Hope that helps you out. If you have any other ?'s about Mesh's gear, please let me know, and what I don't know offhand, I can certainly find out with just a phonecall.


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## Sponge (Feb 19, 2009)

Dendroaspis said:


> Ryan got most of it....I've been fortunate enough to play all of their 8's (save for the two shorter scale LACS 8's w/piezos Marten has at home) a few times, and have taken good pics and measurements of these.....
> 
> The RG8's: 5pc maple/wenge neck-through, 30.5", alder wings, deeply dyed rosewood fb, 16.5" radius, ash headstock overlay, single truss rod, earlier ('03) batch white slash logo - later batch ('05) silver foil logo, Sperzel open gear tuners, Lundgren M8, bridges are actually melded & fixed lo-pro 8's (_not Edge III FX-8's),_ 500k CTS pots and switchcraft barrel jacks.
> 
> ...



Oh c'mon now! 

Sent a PM on other issue...


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## somn (Feb 20, 2009)

Is it a zephos 8 string I'm guessing


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## TomAwesome (Feb 20, 2009)

If you mean Xiphos, I dunno. Somehow that doesn't seem their style, though I could be wrong.


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 20, 2009)

what is it that&#180;s so unique about his new custom though? the looks? the specs? both?

is it going to have an actual colour?


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## AVH (Feb 20, 2009)

All I can tell you it's not a xyphos, RG, Iceman, S, etc.


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## powergroover (Feb 20, 2009)

a destroyer then  ????


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## plyta (Feb 20, 2009)

BTB bass body style?


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## hairychris (Feb 20, 2009)

Acoustic...?


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## bulletbass man (Feb 20, 2009)

Power II? Artist? V of some sort? RGA?


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## Kronpox (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm thinking singlecut


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## InCasinoOut (Feb 20, 2009)

Destroyer 8 would be so badass, although it also doesn't seem like their style.


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## LordHines42 (Feb 20, 2009)

I'd go with the longest scale possible, personally; but, of course, if you want thicker strings, a longer scale may screw with your intonation. But I guess u can always push the saddle in to take care of that.

Intonation is the reason behind everything. As much as I love the RG2228, the intonation sucks. It's almost like a design flaw on Ibanez's part. They ship the guitar with an embarrassingly small .065, which has proper intonation, but as soon as you step it up a notch, everything is too sharp, and the stupid Fixed Edge 3 won't let u pull it back all the way. So the only way to fix it is to use an 85, but then that's too thick, so you use an 80, but then the intonation is all FUBARed.

Yay custom.

I guess the idea would be to find the gauge you currently like, as far as sustain and tension, then try and get a neck scale to work with proper intonation.


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## somn (Feb 20, 2009)

Is it a 30 scale 8 string bass sound gear type?


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## AVH (Feb 20, 2009)

LordHines42 said:


> I'd go with the longest scale possible, personally; but, of course, if you want thicker strings, a longer scale may screw with your intonation. But I guess u can always push the saddle in to take care of that.
> 
> Intonation is the reason behind everything. As much as I love the RG2228, the intonation sucks. It's almost like a design flaw on Ibanez's part. They ship the guitar with an embarrassingly small .065, which has proper intonation, but as soon as you step it up a notch, everything is too sharp, and the stupid Fixed Edge 3 won't let u pull it back all the way. So the only way to fix it is to use an 85, but then that's too thick, so you use an 80, but then the intonation is all FUBARed.
> 
> ...



You're partly right, and wrong as well.....I've setup many 2228's, and they have no problem intonating any gauge up to an 85, and I use a strobe tuner. There is more factors involved with intonation besides just gauge...


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## LordHines42 (Feb 20, 2009)

Dendroaspis said:


> You're partly right, and wrong as well.....I've setup many 2228's, and they have no problem intonating any gauge up to an 85, and I use a strobe tuner. There is more factors involved with intonation besides just gauge...



Do tell! I'm currently struggling to find a nice setup with my beast. I recently put a 64 on their for my Bb, and that's still a bit off, and I DON'T want to go thicker on that. And going from the 74 (which sounded perfect) to the 80 (which sounds...ok) only slightly helped my intonation. I am NOT going to an 85 just to fix it. I'm trying to avoid the sound of banging on a telephone pole, lol.

If you know something I don't, don't hold out on me.

Oh, yeah, I did recently loosen my truss rod to get rid of that nasty rattle the 80 gave me, and, yeah, that screwed the intonation a bit more (since it shortened the scale a tad), but what am I supposed to do? You can't have a rattle on your recordings. Yuk.

I also raised the bridge a bit, but I don't want to go too high, do I? I guess if I did, I could tighten the truss rod back up a bit more. I guess I could raise the pickups to make up for that, but shit, I don't want to break anything, lol.


Meshuggah have more experience with this than any of us do. This is the primary reason people listen to them and do what they do. They've already been through all these common problems and have solved them.

I would greatly appreciate some guidance on your part 

Peace.


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## Totem_37 (Feb 21, 2009)

The general consensus seems to be that when it comes to the RG2228, if you go any thicker than a .075 for the low F, it will just sound too much like a bass and lose any tightness. The best advice I could give you is to get your RG2228 professionally set up (by someone with experience with ERGs if possible). There is a lot of technique/detail that goes into setting up a guitar well (especially 8 strings since there is a fine line you need to walk between tone/intonation/playability) and the more I learn, the more I realize that I have more I need to know.


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## LordHines42 (Feb 21, 2009)

Totem_37 said:


> The general consensus seems to be that when it comes to the RG2228, if you go any thicker than a .075 for the low F, it will just sound too much like a bass and lose any tightness. The best advice I could give you is to get your RG2228 professionally set up (by someone with experience with ERGs if possible). There is a lot of technique/detail that goes into setting up a guitar well (especially 8 strings since there is a fine line you need to walk between tone/intonation/playability) and the more I learn, the more I realize that I have more I need to know.



Yeah... I know what you mean...

But yeah, I had a 74 on there, but, regardless of the bad intonation, it was just a bit too loose, and really awful in drop Eb...

The 80 is just about perfect...if it wasn't for the intonation... I guess I just need to tweak everything again. I really wish I could pull that saddle back a bit more!


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## GazPots (Feb 21, 2009)

Is the action on the bass side quite high or higher than usual?


I had problems until i decided to get the action nice and low and the truss rod in a decent position regardless of my low F (which i would then try to sort out). 


Then i set it up for my gauges and an 80 on low F (1/2 down tuning). As the string is massive i was having trouble at the nut (higher action and hence my notes were all sharp). which meant the string was coming out of the nut too high and causing hassle. Turns out i just needed to make sure the skinnier top part of the string (for threading through the tuners) also had to go through the nut aswell. Then just tune up and make sure the skinny part ends before the first fret. Seems the skinny bit is similar in size to my low B so it isn't a problem anymore. 

Shown here.







Problem solved.


Big string that suits my 1/2 to 1 step down tunings tension and action wise. 



Edit - missized nut on my rg2228.


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 21, 2009)

shot you a pm dendro!


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## LordHines42 (Feb 21, 2009)

GazPots said:


> Is the action on the bass side quite high or higher than usual?
> 
> 
> I had problems until i decided to get the action nice and low and the truss rod in a decent position regardless of my low F (which i would then try to sort out).
> ...




YES! Thanks! I was actually thinking of trying this when my new 80 (and 84) arrives (hmmm I MAY be able to try it on the current one, though!), but I was a bit paranoid if the smaller end being under the nut would give the same sustain, lol, or that, since it's lower down, more rattle. I'm sure it's fine, right? hehe.

That will definitely help out down the neck! Thanks.

Now for the other side...

Dare I ask, how are you around the 12th fret?...

Time to tweak! Thanks again. 


edit: but yes, to answer your question, the action is quite high. and the neck is really bent since i loosened the rod lol... ill fix it.... but then the rattle will be back, no?  I get more noticeable rattle because of the fixed WAH I use on my best patches. it kind of emphasizes anything on the string.



EDIT 2: I did this, but only had an extra 74 lying around, and it did help, a bit, I think,... that and tightening the truss back up a again. The tone of the 74 is INDEED better than the 80, but the tension on the 80 is a bit better.... it's a catch..33? ha


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## MF_Kitten (Feb 21, 2009)

i&#180;m really excited to see this new LACS now... i&#180;m wondering wtf it could be! 

you mention it&#180;s not a Xyphos, iceman, RG, S and end it with "ETC"... that kinda leaves me wondering if it&#180;s even a shape ibanez does these days! 

it&#180;s too open ended!

sooo, when is this thing due? like, when does he get it so we can see photos of it and piss bile from our tear ducts?

also, for the guy that asked if it was a BTB shape guitar, that&#180;s a dream i&#180;ve had for a couple years now, and i would be chuffed to bits if it were so!

if only i could find the photoshop i did of an 8 string BTB guitar, it looked so incredibly awesome!

fake edit: found all of the non-rg 8 string mockups! 

only a couple of the ancient links worked though:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/2772/art2228mockupbs2.jpg

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/2728/btb2228mockupfs8.jpg

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1430/s2228mockuprk1.jpg


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## gunshow86de (Feb 21, 2009)

somn said:


> Is it a 30 scale 8 string bass sound gear type?



Please explain what you mean by this.




The sentence underneath your avatar describes you well.


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## GazPots (Feb 23, 2009)

LordHines42 said:


> YES! Thanks! I was actually thinking of trying this when my new 80 (and 84) arrives (hmmm I MAY be able to try it on the current one, though!), but I was a bit paranoid if the smaller end being under the nut would give the same sustain, lol, or that, since it's lower down, more rattle. I'm sure it's fine, right? hehe.
> 
> That will definitely help out down the neck! Thanks.
> 
> ...




It could be a multitude of things combining to cause you the trouble. What i did was just setup my rg2228 like any of my 7 strings and made sure the high E and low B heights were the same as how i usually have my stuff set up.


Then once i knew the guitar was in the right sort of setup for me i started to focus on the low F and get that nice by changing up the gauges on it and the action, nut height, intonation etc. 

Also with huge strings *make sure they cross the nut AND the bridge saddle horizontal and that they don't arch up into the air at either end of the guitar.* Give the string a good press down just over the fretboard after the nut and at the bridge saddle to make sure the string is at the right angle. If you don't it will increase that strings "action" and hence cause even more trouble.


So try that if you are having a lot of trouble. Or worst case, take it to a tech.



Edit - when i said i set up my 8 string like a 7 string first i did this with a random but suitable string on and tuned to low F so that the neck was balanced and such. Just so you don't think i had no string on the low F haha. 


Honestly, now ive sorted mine out im real happy with it. Riff machine. Now my worries are on the EMG's tone.  

Gaz


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## LordHines42 (Feb 23, 2009)

GazPots said:


> Also with huge strings *make sure they cross the nut AND the bridge saddle horizontal and that they don't arch up into the air at either end of the guitar.* Give the string a good press down just over the fretboard after the nut and at the bridge saddle to make sure the string is at the right angle. If you don't it will increase that strings "action" and hence cause even more trouble.



That part confuses me a bit  lol. So, make sure the bridge is the same height as the string at the first fret? Is that what you mean?

All I know is, my current setup (still waiting for my new 80 and 84 to arrive) is better since I did what u said to do in ur pic, but like I said, I only had a 74 available, but no more 80s at the time. I bet ur technique with the 80 is almost perfect, eh? But then, I bet there is more buzz, too....since it's fatter, and also lower since you don't have the fat part of the string under the nut.... right? Better for intonation, but not so much for buzz...? Do you get a lot of buzz?

Currently, with my 74, it's a tad sharp at the 12th fret. It's almost unnoticable, and in my POD tuner, it DOES actually register as an F.. lol, but it's not exact.

Is your setup exact? or just close to it? What I don't get is how (as I recall!...) the Ibanez factory 65 had near perfect intonation, but when I put thicker stings on, which is supposed to help with that, actually made it sharper, until going super big, which helped it again. Go figure.

The tech option is always an idea...since I clearly have no clue what I'm doing...

Thanks


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## GazPots (Feb 24, 2009)

No, i mean what is shown in this diagram. It is only to do with really thick strings in the 70 and above sizes.







Just apply pressure where shown to make sure the strings not adding extra height onto your action by being so think that it doesn't straighten out under string tension.



As for my 80, i don't get any buzz since my necks at the perfect angle and the stright height is fine. And thats detuned a step down to E.


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## LordHines42 (Feb 24, 2009)

GazPots said:


> No, i mean what is shown in this diagram. It is only to do with really thick strings in the 70 and above sizes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OHHH! OK  I get u now. I just assumed they were already flat, but maybe not... I'll give that a go. Thanks a ton! 

What about the far back screw on the bridge? I know it says to keep it "level", but I have no idea how to check this. Do you think it would help intonation to have it either a bit more forward or back? Or is level a rule? hehe. I'm just curious how u have yours, if u can remember!


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## GazPots (Feb 24, 2009)

I actually got a small piece of paper in the instruction manual for the ibanez prestige gutiars and it shows you the correct bridge angle for the rg2228. 


If you don't have that picture i can scan it and send you it so you can adjust your own to suit. Mine is just set at the same angle as the manual says.


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## LordHines42 (Feb 24, 2009)

I tried your technique of pushing the string down near the bridge, and it helped a ton! It was indeed bowed up a bit before. I pushed that one down, and my 64 Bb, too. Both helped!!!

The only downside I noticed was a bit more rattle on some fretted notes. And I know that if I touch anything else, it's probably going to mess the intonation back up again, lol. But I guess it can't hurt to try.

As for the bridge height and screws, my manual also shows a pic of how it's supposed to be parallel, but I can't see for shit if it really is or not, lol. I mean, jeez, the bridge is like rounded on the top a bit as it is anyway. I'll have to find a ruler, I guess. heh...

Thanks for the help, Gaz.

And sorry for highjacking this thread, Sponge, but maybe this info will help your design choices.


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## GazPots (Feb 24, 2009)

No problemo. 



And back on topic. in ......3........2.......1..........


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## LordHines42 (Feb 25, 2009)

haha. u know what's funny? Last week when I was going truss rod crazy, I removed all the buzz from my 7 string as well, and I noticed it sounded worse, tone-wise, when before it sounded EXACTLY like Fell Silent. I knew it was because they had the same tone i had in the POD (Definitely a fixed wah on there somewhere like i have. got to..) and, get this, *a ton of fret buzz*. Somehow, the fret buzz gives the 7 string stuff (with a fixed wah "super djenty" patch)...that super metally sound, but if there is no buzz, it just sounds...bad.

So, I noticed my current 7 string tone was horribly..."clean", so I tightened the rod back up and got it to where there is buzz on every fretted note on the Bb, and even on the hard open notes. And guess what... BOOM. Best 7 string tone I've ever heard. It sounds EXACTLY like Fell Silent (that combined with my current patch). It sounds so awesome!!

It's weird, cuz buzz and rattle sounds horrible on 8 stuff, but great on 7 stuff. Go figure...


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## Sponge (Feb 25, 2009)

LordHines42 said:


> I tried your technique of pushing the string down near the bridge, and it helped a ton! It was indeed bowed up a bit before. I pushed that one down, and my 64 Bb, too. Both helped!!!
> 
> The only downside I noticed was a bit more rattle on some fretted notes. And I know that if I touch anything else, it's probably going to mess the intonation back up again, lol. But I guess it can't hurt to try.
> 
> ...



Hey brother, I totally appreciate the input. This totally helps.


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## LordHines42 (Feb 25, 2009)

Sponge said:


> Hey brother, I totally appreciate the input. This totally helps.



Awesome.


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## dsm3sx (Feb 26, 2009)

The most important is that you don't hear the buzz through the amp.

Just about all my guitars have a very slight buzz acoustically on the lower strings but not enough to kill/alter sustain. I always thought this was just fine....

or is it?


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## GazPots (Feb 26, 2009)

Nah its fine if its a slight one that doesn't affect sustain/amp sound.



My uv is so ridiculously low in action it buzzes a but you can honestly breathe on it and it'll play fast as fuck.  And it sounds brutal.


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## LordHines42 (Feb 27, 2009)

I tried the 84... I kind of hate it. It's weird. It sounds like it has chorus when it's not even turned on lol. it was freaking me out a bit. I think it has something to do with the 808s and the size of the string itself. It's so damn thick of a tone. It's almost too thick. It's also kind of tinny. Like.... where the 74 was super deep and heavy-sounding, the 84 sounds like a metal pole. lol. I'm gonna give it a few more days to break in, since all new strings sound like garbage at first, but I'm not counting on much of a difference, especially considering the 80 never sounded quite like the 74 even after that one was broken in.

Speaking of BREAKING..... I broke part of my saddle trying to get the friggin 84 on there. First of all, it wouldn't FIT all the way in the clamp, so the first time I "clamped" it in, it popped out and unwrapped the end of the string, so I had to reclip the end and go from there...

Then, the only way to get it to fit in all the way was to clamp the end of the string down flat a bit myself with a pair of pliers first, lol. And then, I was so worried about it pulling out again, I tightened it so hard that I stripped the clamp screw CLEAN out. Jesus.

So, when I change back, I'll have to jack a screw out of my high E saddle and use that until I order a replacement screw, hell, if I can even unscrew the stripped one out of the F saddle, if not, I'll just swap out the saddles altogether... yaaay...lol..

It didn't feel like it was too hard a turn, though. That's the thing. It's just so thick of a string, it took too much torque than the screw allowed to get it clamped down.

Keep that in mind, guys.. an 84 is TOO BIG and tinny sounding! 80 is biggest you'd want to try, and 74 is a nice sweet spot....




And I'm sticking with the idea that more buzz on fell silent tones is actually a good thing. it's so awesome. it actually adds to the tone quality. without it, it would suck. but for a meshuggah tone, it's bad. there u go.

until next time,










UPDATE:

it turns out the screw was not stripped! (whoo!), but the cheap wrench Ibanez included with the guitar was. Luckily I had my custom set nearby which worked perfectly. Replaced the 84 with the 74. muuuch better. i know you're using an 80 now, but i really think the 74 has a better tone than even an 80.

also got the intonation spot on with the bridge height and truss rod... yes there is some buzz, mostly acoustically, yes, but some of it is affecting the tone (again, good for fell silent, bad for meshuggah). but some buzz being there this time is ok since I changed my POD tone COMPLETELY which sounds even better than my current Nebulous cover tone on my info down there, which was already pretty damn good! lol. but this new one is even better and it even removes the "sensitivity" of the buzzing. so i get the best of both worlds. tone and intonation. it can only get better...

Gaz, I went ahead and made sure the double wound portion of the 74 was under the nut this time instead of before it... anything to keep the buzz away, which helped some, but mostly ur technique of pushing down on both ends helped a lot with the 12th fret intonation. overall, it works, but there is still some buzz. it seems the RG8 was simply not designed well enough as an 8 string. Meshuggah clearly know what they're doing with their longer scales...

anyway...
thanks again.


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