# ESP vs. Caparison? Let me hear some input!



## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

Hey guys, I've been an ESP guy for years and while at work today (I work at a music store) I brought in my new ESP Mystique and one of my coworkers was telling me about how his Caparisons played much better and he regrets selling them. I've never actually played one but I've heard great things about them and I'm wondering is it actually worth the big price difference between the two? Do Caparisons actually play that much better? I know Caparisons are considered sort of the top of the top of the line. Again, I don't know a whole lot about them, as I just recently started really researching them. I'd appreciate any input, if enough of you guys tell me Caparisons are really that much better I'll get myself one. Thanks!


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

Caparison are much better built guitars than ESP...on opposite day. 

I've played tons of both and wouldn't ever put anything but the most high end and limited Caparisons on the same level as Standard or Original series ESP.

The consistency and quality of real MIJ ESP guitars is very, very hard to beat or even meet. I say that as not the biggest ESP fan.

Caparison and thier dealers have done a good job of selling them as a boutique option, but the product, from what I've seen doesn't usually stand up within the same price bracket.

Granted, they've come a long way. Ten years ago they couldn't even sell them for $1200.

In 2018 $2500 to $4000 can get you some downright exceptional guitars.


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Caparison are much better built guitars than ESP...on opposite day.
> 
> I've played tons of both and wouldn't ever put anything but the most high end and limited Caparisons on the same level as Standard or Original series ESP.
> 
> ...


Yeah I love my ESPs and can't imagine anything beating them, but I know a lot of guys swear by Caparison. My co-worker who was telling me about his said he had the Chris Amott sig and a TAT and loved them. I've really been digging the Horus but it's around 2500 so I want to get a lot of input before I decide on it either way. I definitely like the style of Caparisons aesthetically, I mean they just look like evil shred machines haha


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## Dawn of the Shred (May 16, 2018)

Every Caparison I’ve owned or played just left me underwhelmed.. Just meh at a expensive of price. I would take ESP all day every day over one, but that’s just my two cents.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

They look killer, and until very recently they were pretty difficult to get a hold of, so there's this aura around them. 

I've played an Amott model, that along with the Romeo, and they're probably some of the best Caparison offers, the TAT Special I tried was awesome as well. But you're looking at $3k to $4k for that stuff, and frankly I don't think they're quite worth it.


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

Maybe if I can find a nice one on the used market for under 2k I'll pull the trigger, but without trying one I'm just not sure. What are the necks like?


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Maybe if I can find a nice one on the used market for under 2k I'll pull the trigger, but without trying one I'm just not sure. What are the necks like?



They got thier start at the Japanese division of Jackson/Charvel, and that shows in the necks.


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They got thier start at the Japanese division of Jackson/Charvel, and that shows in the necks.


Okay, I like a nice charvel neck so that would be cool to try. I'm seeing a few of the Dellenger models on Reverb for around 1500, but I really wanted to try the Horus. Do the Dellengers have the same feel? I remember you said you liked the Amott, wasn't that a Dellenger?


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## Flappydoodle (May 16, 2018)

I think I'm qualified to answer this - I own two of each brand, and I have played almost every current Caparison model, plus a few of the older ones.

Short answer: ESP and Caparison are different. You really need to play them to find out what you like. For $4000, you have a lot of options including custom builds. $2000 can buy a lot of guitar too. Never buy a guitar based on stuff written on the internet.

I disagree with others who say Caparison is overpriced. Trying to assess "value" for these high end instruments is kinda silly IMO. Once you're beyond the intermediate price range where you're paying for extra features, the guitar is worth whatever you're happy paying. And really, there isn't much price difference. An ESP E-II is still a factory production line instrument. You need to compare Caparisons to ESP originals or perhaps custom shop, which are very similar to Caparisons. Caparisons are all handmade, approx 40 guitars per month. Kinda custom shop-ish, but without the ability to customise, haha

I also disagree that dealers have done a good job of marketing Caparisons. In fact, I think it's the opposite. They are virtually impossible to find in any "normal" stores. The UK has one single store, in Wales (miles from anywhere). Most European countries have none. You really need to go to Japan to find the best selection. Of course, you can find ESP absolutely everywhere with their massive distribution network.

My thoughts:

Construction quality. Both of my E-II guitars have some slight, tiny flaws. Neither of my Caparisons (2017 and 2018 models) do. They are literally flawless. I even looked in the control cavity - it's perfect. Apparently they weren't so good 10 years ago. ESP have been awesome for a long time - in fact, many say that they were better 10 years ago.

Necks. ESP "thin U" shape is a very specific neck shape. Personally, I am very comfortable with them, but it may not be for everybody - a friend of mine absolutely hates that thin U. Caparison necks are incredible IMO. Jackson-esque, but it's quite complicated and changes shape as you move up the neck. It starts thin and flat and then rounds out as you get to the higher frets. Same for the fretboard radius, which is always compound.

Frets. I love the super rounded, super jumbo ESP frets. Caparison "jumbo" still aren't as tall or wide, and they don't round the edges quite as much. Nor as they as ridiculously shiny as ESP frets, haha

Pickups. Caparison stocks pickups are pretty cool IMO. They sound different. Many people swear by them. Others think they're shit and change them immediately. They are rather high output, very dynamic, tons of clarity, quite bright. ESP obviously gives a lot more choice of EMG or SD, and even some Fishmans in the latest models.

To answer your other questions: All Horus models are the Gibson 24.75 inch scale length. Dellingers are 25.5. Brockens are 27.0. That is probably a big deciding factor in which model you might like.

The Horus has two current models - the M3 and the FX-AM. They are extremely different. The M3 is mahogany and maple, has a Floyd rose, inlays, binding etc. The FX-AM is an ash and maple sandwich and has basically no fancy added features. Same for the standard Dellingers - an M3 and an FX-AM. Older models were WM, which is walnut-mahogany. All those Horus and Dellinger models are bolt-on necks. All Horus models have 27 frets too, whereas Dellingers have 24. Some people complain that the 27 frets alter the position of the neck pickup, making it less fat than usual. Personally, I like the sound.

I've tried a LOT of Caparisons, and I can tell you that every single one is different. Some are bright, some are dark. I would never ever buy one without trying.

If you really HAVE to buy blind from Reverb, just buy an ESP. Any E-ii will be good. Any ESP original is almost guaranteed to be great. Otherwise, I think you're insane for spending that much money without trying first. Countless times I've been prepared to love a guitar, only to dislike it almost immediately. I lusted after an ESP Original Horizon which was about $3000, and when I finally got to play one, I was totally underwhelmed. Seems crazy to buy online IMO...


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## Sogradde (May 16, 2018)

I haven't played a Caparison yet and I don't own an ESP but every ESP (as in E-II) I touched so far felt pretty high quality, apart from minor flaws like binding spillover etc. whereas I heard quite some horror stories about Caparison QC from certain years.

As with most guitars, I suppose it's "try before you buy". If you find a Caparison that feels better than your ESP, by all means buy it. Brand loyalty is a silly thing as long as you're not endorsed.


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## Spicypickles (May 16, 2018)

Your coworker sounds like a ballbag, OP. You bring in your new guitar and he waxes poetic about how his guitars played much better.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

Spicypickles said:


> Your coworker sounds like a ballbag, OP. You bring in your new guitar and he waxes poetic about how his guitars played much better.



Welcome to musical instrument retail. Everyone has something that plays better than what you have...or so they say.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Caparison are much better built guitars than ESP...on opposite day.
> 
> I've played tons of both and wouldn't ever put anything but the most high end and limited Caparisons on the same level as Standard or Original series ESP.
> 
> ...



I played one of their custom line models recently when I was in Tokyo... And sorry to say this, but, ESP couldn't hold a jock strap to that guitar. Is it downright expensive? Yeah, but the necks are MUCH nicer feeling than ESPs, slightly thinner, very much like MIJ jacksons with a tad extra meat on them. If I had to choose a Caparison or an ESP, Caparison ALL the way.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 16, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> I think I'm qualified to answer this - I own two of each brand, and I have played almost every current Caparison model, plus a few of the older ones.
> 
> Short answer: ESP and Caparison are different. You really need to play them to find out what you like. For $4000, you have a lot of options including custom builds. $2000 can buy a lot of guitar too. Never buy a guitar based on stuff written on the internet.
> 
> ...



And even in Japan, Caparisons are hard as shit to find. The only place that has any real stock of them is Musicland Key in Shibuya, which they have the largest number of in stock Caparisons in all of Japan. I did just that since I was in Tokyo a couple weeks ago and if I could afford it, I'd totally buy a caparison blind. I played one of their Custom Line Horus' that are this year's CL model, and holy goddamn shit was that thing amazing. You wanna talk about flame maple tops? That thing, the entire TOP HALF OF THE BODY was flame maple.


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## jaxadam (May 16, 2018)

I have both, and I also have a bunch of other guitars and I'll say this: My ESP is one of the best playing guitars I've ever touched. My Caparisons are nice, unique, and fun. They are great guitars for what they are. 

Flappydoodle did a great job up there with his explanation, so anything else I would add he's already said.


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## narad (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Caparison and thier dealers have done a good job of selling them as a boutique option, but the product, from what I've seen doesn't usually stand up within the same price bracket.



Boutique batch sizes, build speed, and price. Standard production quality.


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## Viginez (May 16, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> Yeah, but the necks are MUCH nicer feeling than ESPs, slightly thinner, very much like MIJ jacksons with a tad extra meat on them.


yeah, that's just preference, not a sign of different quality.
if you are very connected to esp necks you will maybe end up not liking other wider necks at all.


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## Flappydoodle (May 16, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> And even in Japan, Caparisons are hard as shit to find. The only place that has any real stock of them is Musicland Key in Shibuya, which they have the largest number of in stock Caparisons in all of Japan. I did just that since I was in Tokyo a couple weeks ago and if I could afford it, I'd totally buy a caparison blind. I played one of their Custom Line Horus' that are this year's CL model, and holy goddamn shit was that thing amazing. You wanna talk about flame maple tops? That thing, the entire TOP HALF OF THE BODY was flame maple.



Yup - Musicland has a decent selection for sure. But still no more Caparisons than your average US or UK guitar store has in terms of ESPs. Shame they usually give you a dual recto which just sounds like mush as low volume. In case you didn't know already, the real best amp is that modded Marshall with a 412 in the corner  The other retailer, in PePe department store had 3 Caparisons the last time I was there. And they were all set up horribly, and they give you a shit little 12 inch combo to play through.

Totally agree about the CL Horus. But it's also the most expensive guitar they have, haha. I also enjoyed the Adam D metal machine (so much so that I have one on order, muwahaha). My friend bought a Dellinger FX-AM, which is also a great guitar. And in Tokyo, they're not horrendously expensive. If I remember correctly, they were only a bit more expensive than Gibsons.

Also, when people are saying "ESP" I think they need to be more specific. There are so many different lines at different price points. Caparison is equivalent to ESP custom shop or maybe ESP original. E-ii is unquestionably a step below.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 16, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Yup - Musicland has a decent selection for sure. But still no more Caparisons than your average US or UK guitar store has in terms of ESPs. Shame they usually give you a dual recto which just sounds like mush as low volume. In case you didn't know already, the real best amp is that modded Marshall with a 412 in the corner  The other retailer, in PePe department store had 3 Caparisons the last time I was there. And they were all set up horribly, and they give you a shit little 12 inch combo to play through.
> 
> Totally agree about the CL Horus. But it's also the most expensive guitar they have, haha. I also enjoyed the Adam D metal machine (so much so that I have one on order, muwahaha). My friend bought a Dellinger FX-AM, which is also a great guitar. And in Tokyo, they're not horrendously expensive. If I remember correctly, they were only a bit more expensive than Gibsons.
> 
> Also, when people are saying "ESP" I think they need to be more specific. There are so many different lines at different price points. Caparison is equivalent to ESP custom shop or maybe ESP original. E-ii is unquestionably a step below.



The problem is, ESP can be found just about anywhere because of Big Boss stores everywhere, whereas Caparison is so limited that it's hard to even try one. I didnt have time or energy when I went to Key to try other models. I had to try that CL though, and if I had had the money, I woulda taken it home on the spot


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## FitRocker33 (May 16, 2018)

I had a 2010 Dellinger II that I didn’t feel was equal to the quality of my current EII Horizon. 

Uninspiring neck, cheap plastic veneer on the headstock, the body wasn’t really finished to a level I would have been expected at this price point. Good frets, trem and inlays.

My horizon was 1600, the dellinger was 2250.


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## Andromalia (May 16, 2018)

I had the opportunity to play the yellow one same as Eklund plays, it was okay, I guess. Not a bad guitar, but way overpriced, an ESP standard was the same grade and half as cheap. (Then) 
I now own a few ESPs including an Original, the latter one is on the top of the food chain and if I had to pay 6K I would go that way again. (No, I didn't pay it that price, it was for sale for 2K new when I got it, guess high end 27" baritones don't sell well)


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

Thanks for all the input guys! I guess for now if one pops up locally I'll try it, otherwise I'm really GASing for one now (funny how that works, isn't It?) So if I find a newer one for an exceptionally good price I may get it and if I don't like it I'll sell it. As far as what I'm comparing them to, my ESPs in my collection are a '98 MX, EII MK1 and MIJ Edward's Mystique (which feels very similar to my MK1) now I do have Gibsons too that I play a lot, but I'm sure you guys will tell me a Caparison will play better haha


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## mastapimp (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Caparison are much better built guitars than ESP...on opposite day.



This comment brought me back to 2nd grade!


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

Spicypickles said:


> Your coworker sounds like a ballbag, OP. You bring in your new guitar and he waxes poetic about how his guitars played much better.


Haha he's a cool dude. It was more like, we were sitting around jamming on it and started talking about Amaranthe and how their guitarist uses Caparison and he was telling me how great his were, and how they could smoke my ESPs in terms of playability


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## Element0s (May 16, 2018)

I've owned a couple of each at similar used price points and the Caparisons are a little more my speed. The ESPs were both excellent instruments but I like the necks of Caparisons better. The same team that developed the Japanese tooth-paste Charvel guitars from 89-91 founded Caparison so if you've ever played a 475 Deluxe or a 650XL then you'll have an idea of what to expect. I love 'em and I'm lucky enough to live 10 minutes drive from one of the few Caparison dealers in Canada so I've had a chance to play more than a few. Trying out a Caparison before buying it can be tough but the necks are all handmade so it's worth taking a test run. On the bright side, they retain their value quite well so if you pick one up used and don't care for it you should be able to resell easily enough. 

Failing that, grabbing a toothpaste Charvel is a great option!


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

So apparently The Music Zoo is a Caparison dealer and they're only about a 2.5hr drive from me, next time I get the chance I'll take a trip down there to try some. I was just talking to a buddy of mine who used to be a dealer, he said when he dropped them a few years back the quality was going down and the prices were going way up and that they're about equal to a pro series jackson. So my hopes aren't very high but it's worth trying some out


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## Spicypickles (May 16, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Haha he's a cool dude. It was more like, we were sitting around jamming on it and started talking about Amaranthe and how their guitarist uses Caparison and he was telling me how great his were, and how they could smoke my ESPs in terms of playability


I get it, but when I jam with bros they usually say they "prefer brand X", not shit on my gear. Not getting serious, but I think it's funny.


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## groverj3 (May 16, 2018)

The eternal debate over which $2k+ guitar is better. I've heard some bad stories about QC from Caparison, but that was quite a while ago. 

I mostly like the TAT models, but I'm a neck through superstrat guy "through and through." As a Jackson Soloist fan, how could I not like that model? The comparison to pro-series Jacksons I get, since it's the same people who made the old Charvel and Jackson MIJ imports.

I'm in the "play it and decide" camp. So many of the things in this price range that differentiate models and makers are down to personal preference.


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## Darkscience (May 16, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Hey guys, I've been an ESP guy for years and while at work today (I work at a music store) I brought in my new ESP Mystique and one of my coworkers was telling me about how his Caparisons played much better and he regrets selling them. I've never actually played one but I've heard great things about them and I'm wondering is it actually worth the big price difference between the two? Do Caparisons actually play that much better? I know Caparisons are considered sort of the top of the top of the line. Again, I don't know a whole lot about them, as I just recently started really researching them. I'd appreciate any input, if enough of you guys tell me Caparisons are really that much better I'll get myself one. Thanks!



Dude come on. You work at a guitar store and you are going to believe this crap your coworker is feeding you about his guitar playing much better than your ESP? ESP is one of the best made guitars in the WORLD, this would make Caparison god like, (something internet reviews say otherwise).

Also you mention your guitar is BRAND NEW! Your just suffering from GAS


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## Backsnack (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They look killer, and until very recently they were pretty difficult to get a hold of, so there's this aura around them.
> 
> I've played an Amott model, that along with the Romeo, and they're probably some of the best Caparison offers, the TAT Special I tried was awesome as well. But you're looking at $3k to $4k for that stuff, and frankly I don't think they're quite worth it.


3-4K?!

They’ve definitely increased in price since I found out about them in the early 2000s.


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## Mathemagician (May 16, 2018)

ESP and I’m not even going to dignify this further.


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## Nick (May 16, 2018)

I own a Japanese esp and did own a dellinger II. as others have mentioned caparison went through a rough patch in 2008 when they had some financial difficulty and this caused some duds around that time. sadly mine was one of these, played great but no resonance and sounded shit regardless of pickup swaps. 

In terms of playability it was like for like with the esp. 

They have sorted these issues now for sure and anything from about 2013 on that I have played has been phenominal


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## NateFalcon (May 16, 2018)

Your friend is a BS artist...lol sounds like a classic “I can top that” story


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

Nick said:


> I own a Japanese esp and did own a dellinger II. as others have mentioned caparison went through a rough patch in 2008 when they had some financial difficulty and this caused some duds around that time. sadly mine was one of these, played great but no resonance and sounded shit regardless of pickup swaps.
> 
> In terms of playability it was like for like with the esp.
> 
> They have sorted these issues now for sure and anything from about 2013 on that I have played has been phenominal


How far back would you say they're good? If I found an older model for example


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## RLG167 (May 16, 2018)

Darkscience said:


> Dude come on. You work at a guitar store and you are going to believe this crap your coworker is feeding you about his guitar playing much better than your ESP? ESP is one of the best made guitars in the WORLD, this would make Caparison god like, (something internet reviews say otherwise).
> 
> Also you mention your guitar is BRAND NEW! Your just suffering from GAS


I mean, I trust his opinion, we have similar taste in a lot of guitars, one of my other coworkers who had one also told me today how it's a league above anything else he's played. If people are saying that, regardless of weather or not it's exaggerated I think it's worth trying.
I love my new ESP as much as my other ESPs, just wondering if it's worth trying a Caparison


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## narad (May 16, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> I mean, I trust his opinion, we have similar taste in a lot of guitars, one of my other coworkers who had one also told me today how it's a league above anything else he's played. If people are saying that, regardless of weather or not it's exaggerated I think it's worth trying.
> I love my new ESP as much as my other ESPs, just wondering if it's worth trying a Caparison



It is worth trying, but it's very subjective. I think I've owned 4 Caparisons -- Tats, horuses, and angeluses. I would not give them the praise your coworker does. My j-custom crushed all of them, in basically every category. 

Caparisons were the first guitar I ever had where the electronics stopped working and I had to go in and resolder a connection. And then they were also the brand of the second guitar where I had to do that. My worst case of fret sprout was a Caparison. I had a Caparison arrive new with a chip in the binding. Plenty of QC issues with Jacksons too, so maybe they're just carrying on that heritage ;-)

So might you prefer a Caparison over an ESP? Sure. The feel is totally different. But your friend is nuts for not tempering his recommendation with the reality of preference in $2k+ guitars being a largely subjective thing. For someone working at a guitar store that's just appallingly dumb of him to say.


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## possumkiller (May 17, 2018)

Once you own a custom shop ESP you won't care.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 17, 2018)

To clarify, I've played Caparisons as recent as 2017, though it could have been a 2016 build.

It was a Dellinger II with a tag for ~$2200 on it.

It was in no objective way better than a common ESP, and that includes $1500 E-II models.

Perhaps thier $4k ones are better, but so are ESP USA models.


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## AxeHappy (May 17, 2018)

I love my Caparison TAT, but I bought it used for less than 2K after being unwilling to pay new or run prices for one. Take that how you will. 

It does fucking shred though.


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## gunch (May 17, 2018)

The only thing cool about Caps are the clocks and sponge finishes, ESP Custom Shop kills them otherwise 

You ever notice how the Cap mania cooled off here once Engage got banned


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## MatiasTolkki (May 17, 2018)

silverabyss said:


> The only thing cool about Caps are the clocks and sponge finishes, ESP Custom Shop kills them otherwise
> 
> You ever notice how the Cap mania cooled off here once Engage got banned



I'm no cap maniac but that Custom line Horus I played smoked the hell out of just about everything I've ever played. The compound radius, the smooth neck, 27 frets, just holy shit. Pickups sounded great too.


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## Nick (May 17, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> How far back would you say they're good? If I found an older model for example



Hey if you look into the build spec of the model you are looking at I'm pretty sure they moved to the 'M3' build spec which is mahogany center with maple winged bodies around the time they got their act together. The construction before that was just solid mahogany bodies. My friend had an M3 horus and it slayed compared to my original solid mahogany delinger.

Also there is a lot of bullsh*t in this thread. Realistically a top level caparison and top level ESP eg one that actually has ESP on the headstock are going to both be outstanding guitars, personal preference to neck carve and cutaway depth etc are what is going to make or break them for you. 

Anyone saying that ESP is the be all and end all of guitars is lying to you, its just about finding what you like, i love my ESP but its no better than the Suhr or Mayones sitting next to it, they are all different though.


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## possumkiller (May 17, 2018)

I'd like to try one out of curiosity but they don't really make anything that's my cup of tea. I seriously doubt any caparison would smoke an ESP handmade. I've spent 12 years looking for something that could just come close to the insane playability of my Custom Shop ESP. So far I haven't found anything. At that price level it's all about how many hours of labor go into making every little detail perfect. So if the builder actually puts your money's worth into building the guitar any guitar up there should be a great player. So that puts it down to personal preference for certain builder aesthetics or neck profiles. However we all know that some builders like to charge premium boutique prices for factory assembly line style craftsmanship like BRJ or Kiesel.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 17, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> I'd like to try one out of curiosity but they don't really make anything that's my cup of tea. I seriously doubt any caparison would smoke an ESP handmade. I've spent 12 years looking for something that could just come close to the insane playability of my Custom Shop ESP. So far I haven't found anything. At that price level it's all about how many hours of labor go into making every little detail perfect. So if the builder actually puts your money's worth into building the guitar any guitar up there should be a great player. So that puts it down to personal preference for certain builder aesthetics or neck profiles. However we all know that some builders like to charge premium boutique prices for factory assembly line style craftsmanship like BRJ or Kiesel.



The Custom Line (1 year limited models) are handmade, just like ESP custom shops. The difference in price is that the Caparison costs about half of what an ESP CS guitar would cost.


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## possumkiller (May 17, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> The Custom Line (1 year limited models) are handmade, just like ESP custom shops. The difference in price is that the Caparison costs about half of what an ESP CS guitar would cost.


So you're saying an ESP custom would cost $8,858.00?


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## RLG167 (May 17, 2018)

Nick said:


> Hey if you look into the build spec of the model you are looking at I'm pretty sure they moved to the 'M3' build spec which is mahogany center with maple winged bodies around the time they got their act together. The construction before that was just solid mahogany bodies. My friend had an M3 horus and it slayed compared to my original solid mahogany delinger.
> 
> Also there is a lot of bullsh*t in this thread. Realistically a top level caparison and top level ESP eg one that actually has ESP on the headstock are going to both be outstanding guitars, personal preference to neck carve and cutaway depth etc are what is going to make or break them for you.
> 
> Anyone saying that ESP is the be all and end all of guitars is lying to you, its just about finding what you like, i love my ESP but its no better than the Suhr or Mayones sitting next to it, they are all different though.


Thanks for the advice, I'll look into the M3 line


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## RLG167 (May 17, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> So you're saying an ESP custom would cost $8,858.00?


I spec'd out a CS ESP recently, was quoted around 6k so if Caparison has that level playability in a 2k guitar I'm in


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## narad (May 17, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> The Custom Line (1 year limited models) are handmade, just like ESP custom shops. The difference in price is that the Caparison costs about half of what an ESP CS guitar would cost.



I don't believe there's any difference in how Caparisons are made -- Custom line vs. others. It's a materials and finish thing.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 17, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> So you're saying an ESP custom would cost $8,858.00?



in japan, the cheapest ESP CS guitar is around 750,000 yen. bare bones, and doesn't include pickups or hardware, meaning the price will easily go over 800k. that caparison I played after tax is 420k iirc.


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## narad (May 17, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> in japan, the cheapest ESP CS guitar is around 750,000 yen. bare bones, and doesn't include pickups or hardware, meaning the price will easily go over 800k. that caparison I played after tax is 420k iirc.



Many original series would be pretty directly comparable in price, and they are custom shop guitars -- just that you don't spec them, same as the Caparison.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 17, 2018)

Clock inlays rule. ESP rules more.


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## ascl (May 18, 2018)

I think once you get into the higher end guitars, it gets really subjective and personal. I have played a bunch of different guitars (including some caparisons), and for the most part, I like my ESPs, but I wouldn't say I think they are necessarily better. As an example, I had a Navigator LP, which is made by ESP, and was fantastic quality... but at the end of the day, I wouldn't buy another one. In fact, I didn't... the navy got stolen, and I replaced it with an ESP Original series Eclipse, and in my mind it is twice the guitar the navvy was, even tho the quality is on par.

For me, I have tried high end Ibanez, Jackson, Caparison etc and they haven't been my thing. PRS OTOH, I think are pretty amazing.

Now if we are talking quality control, that is a bit of a different topic... I think both ESP and PRS have some seriously amazing quality control, and would buy either without playing first (still a bit of a gamble, but pretty small)... anything else I'd want to play first, and check it out for issues.

My 2c anyway. If everyone thought the same way, it'd be damn boring!


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## Carcaridon (May 18, 2018)

I had an ESP standard series Horizon NT-II and honestly it was nowhere near the quality and playability of my TAT Special FX. To say nothing about getting anywhere near my TAT CL14. Caparison just beat all ESP’s and E-II’s I’ve tried.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> I had an ESP standard series Horizon NT-II and honestly it was nowhere near the quality and playability of my TAT Special FX. To say nothing about getting anywhere near my TAT CL14. Caparison just beat all ESP’s and E-II’s I’ve tried.



you have a tat cl? awesome! the Horus this year is epic.


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## RLG167 (May 19, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> I had an ESP standard series Horizon NT-II and honestly it was nowhere near the quality and playability of my TAT Special FX. To say nothing about getting anywhere near my TAT CL14. Caparison just beat all ESP’s and E-II’s I’ve tried.


What's the difference between the TAT FX and CL? Can u post a pic?


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> What's the difference between the TAT FX and CL? Can u post a pic?



fx is fixed bridge, cl is custom line (the real expensive ones.)


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## possumkiller (May 19, 2018)

So basically all we really know is caparison sucks and ESP is the greatest guitar ever?


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> So basically all we really know is caparison sucks and ESP is the greatest guitar ever?



I don't think either guitar "sucks" but I feel the Caparisons are way better quality than the ESP's I've tried. ESP has a name that I feel the quality of the guitars doesn't live up to. Caparison has no "name" so the guitar quality has to do the talking and for me, it sure does.


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> What's the difference between the TAT FX and CL? Can u post a pic?



I don't have any good pics of my FX yet, but here they are. CL14 on top.


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> you have a tat cl? awesome! the Horus this year is epic.



I love the CL. It's an awesome guitar. I got it first and then wanted a fixed bridge model so I got the FX. I bought them both directly from Caparison and shipped over from the Japan shop. I got lucky they had one CL leftover so both were brand new.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> I love the CL. It's an awesome guitar. I got it first and then wanted a fixed bridge model so I got the FX. I bought them both directly from Caparison and shipped over from the Japan shop. I got lucky they had one CL leftover so both were brand new.



have you seen the CL18s? I played that sunburst one, and the flame top made my jaw drop. The neck pickup, even for a single sized humbucker, was absolutely amazing.


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> have you seen the CL18s? I played that sunburst one, and the flame top made my jaw drop. The neck pickup, even for a single sized humbucker, was absolutely amazing.



I've not seen one in person, but I'm sure they're awesome. The CL14 is amazing in every way. I wish they'd do a CL with the TAT FX line. I'd love to have a CL string thru.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> I've not seen one in person, but I'm sure they're awesome. The CL14 is amazing in every way. I wish they'd do a CL with the TAT FX line. I'd love to have a CL string thru.



The first thing I thought when I saw the CL18s were, "Kiesel is ripping us off with their lack of flame maple tops." I took a couple pics while I was at Musicland Key before playing the sunburst one:


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

Wow! Those are amazing looking. People really need to give these guitars a shot. I play so much better on my Caparisons. I'm not sure if it's the neck or unfinished or what. And I've been a long time Jackson USA/CS player.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> Wow! Those are amazing looking. People really need to give these guitars a shot. I play so much better on my Caparisons. I'm not sure if it's the neck or unfinished or what. And I've been a long time Jackson USA/CS player.



The thing that sucks is that Caparison is based here in Nagoya but there are almost no places that stock them. I only played that Sunburst CL because I didn't have time to play a regular one (which is at musicland key in Shibuya), and the one Dellinger I played locally was a 7 string (and I dont play 7s, so you can probably guess how that went  ) I wasn't too happy with the dellinger, but I think that was mostly because it was a 7 and I couldn't really judge how good or bad it was based on that.


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

There are no places anywhere near me that stock them. I bought my CL14 without ever playing one at all. But I loved the play of it so much that prompted me to find the FX. I guess it's good they're a smaller brand. Keeps the quality there. Turn big like Jackson and ESP and things can get a little weird.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> There are no places anywhere near me that stock them. I bought my CL14 without ever playing one at all. But I loved the play of it so much that prompted me to find the FX. I guess it's good they're a smaller brand. Keeps the quality there. Turn big like Jackson and ESP and things can get a little weird.



Thats why I search out some of the smaller makers that no one knows about. I found a Maverick recently that was made at the Fujigen factory (didn't buy it because I found an MIJ Charvel CRR-068, which is just a jackson RR with a different headstock). When I heard Caparison was made buy those same guys, I HAD to try one. I think I'll be saving for awhile but I want 1 caparison, probably a horus, at some point.


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## narad (May 19, 2018)

The dumb thing about Caparison is they're set up at the scale of an almost made-to-order shop, but they don't let you customize or change any options. This year they've put out dozens of these satin TAT specials, great flame tops. Go back a few years when they had the nice gloss ones, and the tops were not anywhere near this good/consistent. Or they do the maple board/black binding neck on the KSE sig, but not on anything else.

And then everything has to be "limited". Caparison is the guitar version of those commemorative coins that had commercials all throughout the 90s/00s. You see one "limited" and you think it's special...then you see that ever single one is "limited"...

Just let me have my trans black TAT special gloss flame top with maple board/black binding/black clocks dammit. And with some decent pickups stock. Then I could maybe justify the price.

It's like...when you're permanently on the edge of bankruptcy and have been bankrupt once before, maybe be open-minded about new strategies...

/rant


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## Carcaridon (May 19, 2018)

I can see that. I'd love a trans red flame version of the Adam D sig. I'd buy that in a second. I'm sure there's a reason why they don't allow customizing. No idea what it could be. And I am bummed I missed out on the TAT Special FX in trans red. I tried to hunt one down and will always keep a lookout for it. I think it was a 1 year run.


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## Mmcgrouty (May 19, 2018)

Maybe it’s just me, but those Caparison guitars are just really boring looking.. They look like a million other guitars that could be hanging at the wall at GC, that I would walk right past. Give me an ESP all day. I’ll be buying my 4th soon.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 19, 2018)

Mmcgrouty said:


> Maybe it’s just me, but those Caparison guitars are just really boring looking.. They look like a million other guitars that could be hanging at the wall at GC, that I would walk right past. Give me an ESP all day. I’ll be buying my 4th soon.



And having all black guitars with very little variation isn't "boring?"


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## Samark (May 19, 2018)

Both are pretty awesome, just comes down to your preferences I guess


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## Dawn of the Shred (May 19, 2018)

I do like some Caparison paint jobs though


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## Vyn (May 19, 2018)

A Horus has been on my bucket list for years. One of my favourite guitar designs.


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## Flappydoodle (May 19, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> So basically all we really know is caparison sucks and ESP is the greatest guitar ever?



More to do with whatever is in or out of trend at a particular time

And again, nobody is really specifying what "ESP" even means? Old ESP standards? ESP original? ESP E-II? Or any of the other shitload of lines they've had over the year. They cover all price points below and above Caparison.


narad said:


> The dumb thing about Caparison is they're set up at the scale of an almost made-to-order shop, but they don't let you customize or change any options. This year they've put out dozens of these satin TAT specials, great flame tops. Go back a few years when they had the nice gloss ones, and the tops were not anywhere near this good/consistent. Or they do the maple board/black binding neck on the KSE sig, but not on anything else.
> 
> And then everything has to be "limited". Caparison is the guitar version of those commemorative coins that had commercials all throughout the 90s/00s. You see one "limited" and you think it's special...then you see that ever single one is "limited"...
> 
> ...



For what it's worth, I think they actually *do* take custom orders to some extent

The number of "one off" paint jobs or body/neck materials I seen online tells me that they must be customising them somewhere. Maybe you need to know a guy who knows a guy



> Maybe it’s just me, but those Caparison guitars are just really boring looking.. They look like a million other guitars that could be hanging at the wall at GC, that I would walk right past. Give me an ESP all day. I’ll be buying my 4th soon.



Because Eclipse and Horizon (i.e. 95% of ESPs that you see in stores) are such original looking guitars?


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## narad (May 19, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> For what it's worth, I think they actually *do* take custom orders to some extent
> 
> The number of "one off" paint jobs or body/neck materials I seen online tells me that they must be customising them somewhere. Maybe you need to know a guy who knows a guy



Nah, you have to be an endorsed artist for them to do a custom finish. Or be a dealer and do a limited run / group buy sort of thing.


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## Mmcgrouty (May 19, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> And having all black guitars with very little variation isn't "boring?"


None of my ESPs are black. I don’t find the line boring at all.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 19, 2018)

narad said:


> The dumb thing about Caparison is they're set up at the scale of an almost made-to-order shop, but they don't let you customize or change any options. This year they've put out dozens of these satin TAT specials, great flame tops. Go back a few years when they had the nice gloss ones, and the tops were not anywhere near this good/consistent. Or they do the maple board/black binding neck on the KSE sig, but not on anything else.
> 
> And then everything has to be "limited". Caparison is the guitar version of those commemorative coins that had commercials all throughout the 90s/00s. You see one "limited" and you think it's special...then you see that ever single one is "limited"...
> 
> ...



That's the thing, they always seem to be on the edge of closing again. 

They stopped thier budget lines, C2 and Chatting Bird, because they simply didn't have the resources to continue the lines. 

I remember the last time they before they went bankrupt they were producing spot models and runs because they would use whatever materials they had on hand.


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## narad (May 19, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the thing, they always seem to be on the edge of closing again.
> 
> They stopped thier budget lines, C2 and Chatting Bird, because they simply didn't have the resources to continue the lines.
> 
> I remember the last time they before they went bankrupt they were producing spot models and runs because they would use whatever materials they had on hand.



Yea, and the amount of money I would pay for a "custom" Caparison, which is merely a hodgepodge of their existing aesthetic specs from different models, would be in the $500-$1000 margin. It's basically the only way I could ever justify the $3.5-4k they try to charge for fancy TAT specials, before they later reduce them to $3-$3.5k in order to sell them.


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## Andromalia (May 19, 2018)

I think they'd need to have someone else than obscure metal players playing them. I'm pretty Suhr some similar sized brands wouldn't be alive with just the metal market.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 19, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> I think they'd need to have someone else than obscure metal players playing them. I'm pretty Suhr some similar sized brands wouldn't be alive with just the metal market.



That's what the Angelus models were, trying appeal to the non-metal crowd.

Thing was, no one wanted to pay PRS Artist Tier prices for them without the option of customizing.

Also, I for Suhr see what you did there. Though, Suhr and Anderson are significantly bigger operations.


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## Flappydoodle (May 20, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> I think they'd need to have someone else than obscure metal players playing them. I'm pretty Suhr some similar sized brands wouldn't be alive with just the metal market.



Well, they have Adam D and Joel from Killswitch Engage. They're pretty big endorsements.

Their main "problem" is their stock levels and distribution along with how many guitars they make. If you look at the configurations available, they actually have 20+ models. But because they only make 40 guitars per month, presumably in batches, it's kinda random what will available and what won't be. A friend of mine was looking at Horus M3 models recently. Out of 6 colour/fretboard variations, only one was in stock at the factory. 3 of them you had to wait until July. 2 you had to wait until October. For supposed "production" guitars, that's not really acceptable. 

Not to mention, trying to demo those models is very difficult unless you happen to live in Tokyo. But even in Tokyo, two of the three dealers had only two guitars in stock. Dealer near me has literally 2 guitars in stock.

And finally, as others have said, the price point is kinda crazy. I'm actually about 90% certain I'm going to buy the Adam D signature TAT, but the full retail price is like £2,800 which is a bit crazy for a simple guitar. Problem is, I've played two and they sound absolutely massive and look and feel incredible, soooo... I need to own it!!


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

Mmcgrouty said:


> None of my ESPs are black. I don’t find the line boring at all.



that doesn't address the fact that ESPs are majority black with some outlier colors


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## MaxOfMetal (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> that doesn't address the fact that ESPs are majority black with some outlier colors



Most ESP production models are _offered_ in black, and I'm sure that's what most dealers order since it's just about the best selling color, but that doesn't mean black is the only option. 

A quick look at the ESP Japan website shows a single model, the Maverick, only available in a single color which is black. You get two or three more if you lump in E2.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

Mmcgrouty said:


> None of my ESPs are black. I don’t find the line boring at all.



that doesn't address the fact that ESPs are majority black with some outlier colors


MaxOfMetal said:


> Most ESP production models are _offered_ in black, and I'm sure that's what most dealers order since it's just about the best selling color, but that doesn't mean black is the only option.
> 
> A quick look at the ESP Japan website shows a single model, the Maverick, only available in a single color which is black. You get two or three more if you lump in E2.



and an ibanez RG has so many more options, same with jackson or charvel.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> and an ibanez RG has so many more options, same with jackson or charvel.



Not really. I say that as a big fan of both Ibanez and Jackson/Charvel. 

Some MIJ RGs come in two or three colors at the most, but usually just one. Jackson does pretty well for thier MIA stuff, but it really depends on the model.


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## RLG167 (May 20, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Well, they have Adam D and Joel from Killswitch Engage. They're pretty big endorsements.
> 
> Their main "problem" is their stock levels and distribution along with how many guitars they make. If you look at the configurations available, they actually have 20+ models. But because they only make 40 guitars per month, presumably in batches, it's kinda random what will available and what won't be. A friend of mine was looking at Horus M3 models recently. Out of 6 colour/fretboard variations, only one was in stock at the factory. 3 of them you had to wait until July. 2 you had to wait until October. For supposed "production" guitars, that's not really acceptable.
> 
> ...


Yeah, there's a dealer that's about a 3 hour drive from me called the Music Zoo and they have a pretty decent stock so I've been thinking of taking a day trip there to try some. It seems like people are pretty torn about Caparison and I was considering just buying one on the used market just to get a feel for it but now I'm thinking it may be worth the drive to get to try most of their current models


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## MaxOfMetal (May 20, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Yeah, there's a dealer that's about a 3 hour drive from me called the Music Zoo and they have a pretty decent stock so I've been thinking of taking a day trip there to try some. It seems like people are pretty torn about Caparison and I was considering just buying one on the used market just to get a feel for it but now I'm thinking it may be worth the drive to get to try most of their current models



Yeah, I'd definitely go with something newer. They do seem to of gotten better, for what it's worth.


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## sunnyd88 (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> that doesn't address the fact that ESPs are majority black with some outlier colors
> 
> 
> and an ibanez RG has so many more options, same with jackson or charvel.



This year, ESP has been alot better about providing more colors for their E-II line. However, what pisses me the fuck off is when you go to the ESP USA or ESP Japan website, you'll see that almost every Horizon, every neck-thru model, no matter what the front color is, E-II or Original Series, will have a gloss black back. For one, gloss necks need to go. Yes, ESP makes a better gloss neck than anyone else, but that's like polishing a turd. They still suck to play on compared to a satin or oiled neck. Just the fact that almost every Caparison comes with a super slick oiled neck has ESP beat already, though I will admit, the ESP thin U neck shape is more comfortable. I used to love ESP immensely, but after axing ESP SS, implementing E-II, and changing/gimping the F style headstock for no reason, I've let go of my love for ESP. 









Anyways, nothing scratches more easily or catches fingerprints like gloss black. For E-II I can understand this, but for a $7k ESP Original Series Horizon CTM FR to still have a gloss black back baffles me. It's just extremely lazy. It lets them use less than ideal looking wood I guess. But I want to be able to see the neck-thru or set-thru construction, I want to see the beautiful wood and woodwork underneath the paint. 









Back in the days of ESP Standard, they had many colors, and they would match the backs of their guitars to that color. Also, for some reason, ESP Japan has a hard on for the script font ESP logo. The FRX, Forest GT, Amorous/Mystique, Horizon, and like 80% of the exhibition series all use the script font now. I hate it. Block font or go home. ESP USA (I mean their made in California series) and Edwards are the only things ESP offer currently that's even worth looking at. Plus ESP USA is the only series that uses stainless steel frets right now in the ESP lineup. But they've even gimped their Edwards line quite a bit too. I've moved on to Caparison and Mayones. Some of the new E-II Horizon and M models are $2100, so a ~$2500 Caparison (cough, and it will actually say Caparison on the headstock) really isn't all that bad. Love my Caparisons, and I wont be looking back. I still love my ESP Edwards guitars though. If they had replaced ESP Standard and LTD Deluxe with Edwards, I wouldn't even be pissed. If they had given us the same quality and value proposition of the Edwards series that would have been great. Plus it's a great brand name. Edwards is 10000 times better than "E-II". I agree, the quality of E-II is about the same as ESP Standard, however branding still matters. Imagine PRS all the sudden becoming just "P-II" with a price increase and a decrease in cool colors and models. Whats worse is that in reality, PRS makes sure that you get "Paul Reed Smith" on the headstock even on their SE models. No one is as backwards as ESP is when it comes to their branding. 









Rant over lol moral of the story is, ESP why did you go and fuck up/change a good thing. Also, ESP fanboys are kind of the worst.


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## Flappydoodle (May 20, 2018)

IMO, ESP was quite smart. If a guitar literally has 'ESP' on the headstock, you KNOW it's good, top of the range. 

Compare that to Ibanez, whose branding is incredibly confusing. Guitars that cost $3000 or $4,000 all look the same and all have the exact same thing written on the headstock. ESP at least protected their brand. 

Problem is, ESP had/have too many lines, all of which kinda overlap now.


----------



## Flappydoodle (May 20, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Yeah, there's a dealer that's about a 3 hour drive from me called the Music Zoo and they have a pretty decent stock so I've been thinking of taking a day trip there to try some. It seems like people are pretty torn about Caparison and I was considering just buying one on the used market just to get a feel for it but now I'm thinking it may be worth the drive to get to try most of their current models



100% worth the drive. You might pick it up and just hate it immediately. Then you just saved $1,000+


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## sunnyd88 (May 20, 2018)

And the only reason why I'm so critical of ESP is that I really did love ESP. I want to be able to love them again. I'd like to actually want to buy their products again. I still think ESP makes the coolest shapes out in the market. Nothing beats the Forest GT, FRX, Antelope, and Horizon III shapes. But they've gone and ruined the Forest headstock shape, and they don't even make the Antelope anymore. ESP used to be miles ahead of their competition, but now I just feel like they've gotten greedy and changed for the worse. They have an extremely overpriced custom shop ($7k for a custom shop but not custom spec Horizon CTM or $3-4k for a Mayones Regius with practically any spec you want), brands up the wazoo (they technically own Schecter and build Schecter Japan's guitars), and guitar building and music academies (like MI). Seriously, when is enough money enough.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (May 20, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Compare that to Ibanez, whose branding is incredibly confusing. Guitars that cost $3000 or $4,000 all look the same and all have the exact same thing written on the headstock.



One will say "Prestige" the other will say "J.Custom". 

There are some oddballs that will say neither, but those are pretty obvious signature models or Anniversary/Super Limited.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

@sunnyd88 

That's part of my hate of ESP, is that every last person in Japan either uses that, Fender, or Gibson, with a few Jackson RRs here and there. Ibanez, Caparison, Tokai, Fujigen, etc get like almost no love around here. I like ESP's stuff, but lack of colors and the long necks REALLY bother me as I dont have a wingspan of a pterdactyl. It's why I have an MIJ Charvel (aka Jackson) and am looking into possibly getting a cobran (also MIJ Jackson).


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

sunnyd88 said:


> And the only reason why I'm so critical of ESP is that I really did love ESP. I want to be able to love them again. I'd like to actually want to buy their products again. I still think ESP makes the coolest shapes out in the market. Nothing beats the Forest GT, FRX, Antelope, and Horizon III shapes. But they've gone and ruined the Forest headstock shape, and they don't even make the Antelope anymore. ESP used to be miles ahead of their competition, but now I just feel like they've gotten greedy and changed for the worse. They have an extremely overpriced custom shop ($7k for a custom shop but not custom spec Horizon CTM or $3-4k for a Mayones Regius with practically any spec you want), brands up the wazoo (they technically own Schecter and build Schecter Japan's guitars), and guitar building and music academies (like MI). Seriously, when is enough money enough.



MI Japan is the biggest problem in japan I think. Because ESP owns it, just about every single student that goes there ends up using an ESP and doesn't go outside of the box. There might be some internal pressure to buy ESP because MI Japan is run by them, but I don't think it's the teachers, I think it's the other students who splerg all over ESP and with Japan's cultural ideology of "the nail that sticks out will be hammered back in" that causes everyone to go to ESP here. EVERY one I know or have seen that went to MI Japan uses an ESP.


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## sunnyd88 (May 20, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> IMO, ESP was quite smart. If a guitar literally has 'ESP' on the headstock, you KNOW it's good, top of the range.
> 
> Compare that to Ibanez, whose branding is incredibly confusing. Guitars that cost $3000 or $4,000 all look the same and all have the exact same thing written on the headstock. ESP at least protected their brand.
> 
> Problem is, ESP had/have too many lines, all of which kinda overlap now.



Nope. Ibanez Prestige and J.custom have their respective names printed on the headstock and use mother of pearl inlay for the Ibanez logo. Super classy. J.customs will almost always have a sick ass tree of life inlay. Ibanez Iron Label is only the Ibanez logo, and Premium and standard all have that ugly ass check mark thing on the headstock. However, at every step of the way, I know I have an Ibanez. 





ESP protected their brand, but now I have no incentive to go out and buy their stuff anymore. Back in the ESP standard days, I didn't have the money for ESP standard since I was in high school but I wanted almost every standard series model because the price was at least attainable for the ESP branded guitar. Now, I want none of their stuff. Alot of people are still like "what in the hell is an E-II??"


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> One will say "Prestige" the other will say "J.Custom".
> 
> There are some oddballs that will say neither, but those are pretty obvious signature models or Anniversary/Super Limited.



Ibanez is one of the better makers regarding branding imo, unless you're a brainless Kiesel shill like Tone King, who didn't know the difference between a premium and a prestige, something he could have spent 5 minutes researching online.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

sunnyd88 said:


> Nope. Ibanez Prestige and J.custom have their respective names printed on the headstock and use mother of pearl inlay for the Ibanez logo. Super classy. J.customs will almost always have a sick ass tree of life inlay. Ibanez Iron Label is only the Ibanez logo, and Premium and standard all have that ugly ass check mark thing on the headstock. However, at every step of the way, I know I have an Ibanez.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The exceptions are the 550/570 rereleases, talmans and roadcores, which only say "Ibanez" on the headstock, but those are definitely the exceptions.


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## sunnyd88 (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> MI Japan is the biggest problem in japan I think. Because ESP owns it, just about every single student that goes there ends up using an ESP and doesn't go outside of the box. There might be some internal pressure to buy ESP because MI Japan is run by them, but I don't think it's the teachers, I think it's the other students who splerg all over ESP and with Japan's cultural ideology of "the nail that sticks out will be hammered back in" that causes everyone to go to ESP here. EVERY one I know or have seen that went to MI Japan uses an ESP.


What do you mean by long neck though? Also, I have no problem with them repping ESP, at least if it was the old days, since there were some really badass models. Say what we will about ESP, but they have some really unique, cool and creative shapes. What I have a problem with is that ESP is racking in so much money already, why do they feel the need to create this ridiculous price barrier for regular people who want an ESP. You would think they could also invest this money into better specs for their guitars like stainless steel frets, a color matching back, a cheaper custom shop, more color options etc etc


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

sunnyd88 said:


> What do you mean by long neck though? Also, I have no problem with them repping ESP, at least if it was the old days, since there were some really badass models. Say what we will about ESP, but they have some really unique, cool and creative shapes. What I have a problem with is that ESP is racking in so much money already, why do they feel the need to create this ridiculous price barrier for regular people who want an ESP. You would think they could also invest this money into better specs for their guitars like stainless steel frets, a color matching back, a cheaper custom shop, more color options etc etc



So I had one of the newer E-II SVs awhile ago, and the neck was MUCH longer than my Kiesel V220 or even my newly purchased Charvel CRR068. It stuck out so much that playing on the lower frets (1-3) was actually tiring for my arm. I know I've gone after Kiesel for a lot of reasons in the Never again thread, but at least the necks dont go as far out as that E-II I had and i can still play it without my arm tiring out from just fretting the first fret for a power chord.


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## Samark (May 20, 2018)

Carcaridon said:


> I don't have any good pics of my FX yet, but here they are. CL14 on top.



Well this looks absolutely fantastic!


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## Andromalia (May 20, 2018)

Some people do like painted necks enough to play them, it's more of a personal taste than a quality standard. AFAIK most custom shop Jacksons have a painted glossy neck, and my ESP Original certainly doesn't. (It's not a horizon)
I get that you don't like it, I don't really either, but it's not a quality factor.


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## possumkiller (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> So I had one of the newer E-II SVs awhile ago, and the neck was MUCH longer than my Kiesel V220 or even my newly purchased Charvel CRR068. It stuck out so much that playing on the lower frets (1-3) was actually tiring for my arm. I know I've gone after Kiesel for a lot of reasons in the Never again thread, but at least the necks dont go as far out as that E-II I had and i can still play it without my arm tiring out from just fretting the first fret for a power chord.


Did it have like a 30 inch scale or something? I'm having a hard time understanding how an ESP has a longer neck. Unless you mean it was a 25.5 inch and you're used to 24.75 inch? That's only a quarter inch longer though.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> Did it have like a 30 inch scale or something? I'm having a hard time understanding how an ESP has a longer neck. Unless you mean it was a 25.5 inch and you're used to 24.75 inch? That's only a quarter inch longer though.



No its actually the way ESP makes their necks. It's 25.5 scale, just like my Ibbies, but the issue is that the bridge is closer to where the neck meets the body, meaning the have to extend the neck out further in order to make it 25.5 inch scale (most manufacturers move the bridge back, but my SV was closer to the neck, I think to fit the battery in the back for the EMGs). This made the neck feel long as hell and I could barely play it standing for more than like 10 minutes without my left arm getting tired. Comparatively, my V220, even with the 25 inch scale, has a shorter feeling neck. Here's a pic of my E-II next to my V220, so you can see the actual difference in neck length


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

My ibbies have never been a problem for me at 25.5 inch scale (as you know I love my ibbies) but it's actually VERY different with ESP and their V types.


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## Mmcgrouty (May 20, 2018)

sunnyd88 said:


> This year, ESP has been alot better about providing more colors for their E-II line. However, what pisses me the fuck off is when you go to the ESP USA or ESP Japan website, you'll see that almost every Horizon, every neck-thru model, no matter what the front color is, E-II or Original Series, will have a gloss black back. For one, gloss necks need to go. Yes, ESP makes a better gloss neck than anyone else, but that's like polishing a turd. They still suck to play on compared to a satin or oiled neck. Just the fact that almost every Caparison comes with a super slick oiled neck has ESP beat already, though I will admit, the ESP thin U neck shape is more comfortable. I used to love ESP immensely, but after axing ESP SS, implementing E-II, and changing/gimping the F style headstock for no reason, I've let go of my love for ESP.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“I hate ESP, they don’t have all my favorite colors, and they slightly changed the headstock on their ugliest model, screw them”...
Wow dude, relax a little.


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## RLG167 (May 20, 2018)

sunnyd88 said:


> Nope. Ibanez Prestige and J.custom have their respective names printed on the headstock and use mother of pearl inlay for the Ibanez logo. Super classy. J.customs will almost always have a sick ass tree of life inlay. Ibanez Iron Label is only the Ibanez logo, and Premium and standard all have that ugly ass check mark thing on the headstock. However, at every step of the way, I know I have an Ibanez.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See this is what I don't get about people who bash EII. It's the same quality and feel of old ESP Standards and Edward's (I know because I own an EII, ESP Standard and an Edwards) so the only problem you have is that people won't see you playing an ESP, so it's all a vanity thing. You even said people say "what the he'll is an EII?" But if it plays well it shouldn't matter what the headstock says. I imagine the people who complain about the ESP rebranding are the same people who buy fakes just so people can think they have an ESP. Nobody cares except you and for the most part at gigs who is even gonna know what ESP is? Most (non guitar playing) people are so used to seeing Gibson and Fender they won't even know what an ESP Standard is


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## DudeManBrother (May 20, 2018)

It’s really hard to compare different brands with completely different design practices. My Capa TAT (‘07) was designed with a slightly sloping body and an angled neck; so the guitar hugs your body in a way no other guitar I’ve ever felt does. ESP’s feel extremely distant by comparison. The two necks are completely different carves. I really like the Schaller trem over the OFR, but both are high quality. I’d go with the best spec for the best price. ESP makes great guitars, Caparison does as well.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> See this is what I don't get about people who bash EII. It's the same quality and feel of old ESP Standards and Edward's (I know because I own an EII, ESP Standard and an Edwards) so the only problem you have is that people won't see you playing an ESP, so it's all a vanity thing. You even said people say "what the he'll is an EII?" But if it plays well it shouldn't matter what the headstock says. I imagine the people who complain about the ESP rebranding are the same people who buy fakes just so people can think they have an ESP. Nobody cares except you and for the most part at gigs who is even gonna know what ESP is? Most (non guitar playing) people are so used to seeing Gibson and Fender they won't even know what an ESP Standard is



I completely agree with this. I had to leave the ESP fangroup on facebook because people kept whining about the branding and posting nothing but metallica crap.


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## narad (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> I completely agree with this. I had to leave the ESP fangroup on facebook because people kept whining about the branding and posting nothing but metallica crap.



Out of the frying pan, into the fire.


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## RLG167 (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> I completely agree with this. I had to leave the ESP fangroup on facebook because people kept whining about the branding and posting nothing but metallica crap.


Exactly. Here's my '98 ESP Standard MX
https://flic.kr/p/Xxi8AX

Here's my 2016 EII MK1
https://flic.kr/p/Ev8UGD

And my 2016 Edward's
https://flic.kr/p/27h6G5J

All the same quality guitar with a different name


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

@RLG167 

Well Edwards aren't exactly MIJ, there was a time they were, but I asked the guys at big boss about it, and now they're MIC but with fit and finish done in Japan. Sad thing the Edwards line probably has the WORST case of BS surrounding it than any other ESP line. MIJ, to secretly moving the production to Korea (iirc) without telling anyone and pushing them as MIJ, then I think for a short time production moved back to Japan, then it went to China with QC done in Japan. Something crazy like that.


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## RLG167 (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> @RLG167
> 
> Well Edwards aren't exactly MIJ, there was a time they were, but I asked the guys at big boss about it, and now they're MIC but with fit and finish done in Japan. Sad thing the Edwards line probably has the WORST case of BS surrounding it than any other ESP line. MIJ, to secretly moving the production to Korea (iirc) without telling anyone and pushing them as MIJ, then I think for a short time production moved back to Japan, then it went to China with QC done in Japan. Something crazy like that.


I got this one from a well respected dealer who got it straight from ESP and assured me it's MIJ. It's got the brass nut truss rod and the same fretwork and feel.


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## RLG167 (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> @RLG167
> 
> Well Edwards aren't exactly MIJ, there was a time they were, but I asked the guys at big boss about it, and now they're MIC but with fit and finish done in Japan. Sad thing the Edwards line probably has the WORST case of BS surrounding it than any other ESP line. MIJ, to secretly moving the production to Korea (iirc) without telling anyone and pushing them as MIJ, then I think for a short time production moved back to Japan, then it went to China with QC done in Japan. Something crazy like that.


It's a one off ESP made for a guitar show and he got his hands on it then sold it to me. But it is MIJ and I believe all Edward's are MIJ. The MIk and MIC line are Grassroots. Edwards are MIJ


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> It's a one off ESP made for a guitar show and he got his hands on it then sold it to me. But it is MIJ and I believe all Edward's are MIJ. The MIk and MIC line are Grassroots. Edwards are MIJ



Edwards isn't MIJ, it's MIC with finishing done in Japan. I literally asked the dude at Big boss about that (Big boss is ESP's own guitar shop). The old ones were MIJ, and if it was for a guitar show, they probably whipped it up here in Japan just to show it off. I could bring up multiple japanese language sites to prove my comments if you'd like.


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## RLG167 (May 20, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> Edwards isn't MIJ, it's MIC with finishing done in Japan. I literally asked the dude at Big boss about that (Big boss is ESP's own guitar shop). The old ones were MIJ, and if it was for a guitar show, they probably whipped it up here in Japan just to show it off. I could bring up multiple japanese language sites to prove my comments if you'd like.


Just saying this Edward's is MIJ. I know the ones they make in China aren't made in a typical mass production factory, they're made in ESPs own small factory in China with people from their Japanese factories overlooking QC. I've never tried one of those but this one was made in the Japanese factory


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## MatiasTolkki (May 20, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Just saying this Edward's is MIJ. I know the ones they make in China aren't made in a typical mass production factory, they're made in ESPs own small factory in China with people from their Japanese factories overlooking QC. I've never tried one of those but this one was made in the Japanese factory



specifically, they are MIC and the parts are shipped to Japan where it's assembled here.

Also, I'm not denying yours is MIJ, I'm TRYING to get you to understand that nowadays they're MIC, just so people don't get misinformed.


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## Andromalia (May 20, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Exactly. Here's my '98 ESP Standard MX
> https://flic.kr/p/Xxi8AX



Ok, who tells him ?


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Ok, who tells him ?


What? Its actually an EXP if that's what you meant


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> Ok, who tells him ?


I'm obviously not getting whatever you're talking about, if you could tell me


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## possumkiller (May 21, 2018)

In 98 there was no standard series just original series. It wasn't called original series yet because original and custom shop were the only "series". Prior to very early 2000s all ESPs were handmade in small batches. Most people still never heard of ESP so demand wasn't as large in the 80s and 90s.


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> In 98 there was no standard series just original series. It wasn't called original series yet because original and custom shop were the only "series". Prior to very early 2000s all ESPs were handmade in small batches. Most people still never heard of ESP so demand wasn't as large in the 80s and 90s.


Oh I only called it a "standard" because I was making a point about it saying ESP on the headstock, I didn't know that though, thanks for the info!


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## possumkiller (May 21, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Oh I only called it a "standard" because I was making a point about it saying ESP on the headstock, I didn't know that though, thanks for the info!


If it's late 90s it should have the circle on the back that says ESP custom guitars. This was for export. If it's blank it was a Japanese domestic build. Later they used the circle logo to differentiate between standard series, custom shop, signature series.


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

possumkiller said:


> If it's late 90s it should have the circle on the back that says ESP custom guitars. This was for export. If it's blank it was a Japanese domestic build. Later they used the circle logo to differentiate between standard series, custom shop, signature series.


The back of the headstock is blank which I was worried about at first but I got it authenticated by ESP. They couldn't tell me what year it was because they don't have the records, only that it was a real EXP and it was made in the 90s.


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## Andromalia (May 21, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> I'm obviously not getting whatever you're talking about, if you could tell me


The ESP custom logo looks funny (block logo and Custom seem to be misaligned), and the EMG Hz certainly are an alarm bell, too. My money would be on a rebadged LTD


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## Viginez (May 21, 2018)

i dunno, but the logo looks very clean (white) for it's age. don't they yellow a bit over time?
also the bridge seems misplaced since the e-string is almost slipping off the fretboard. could be an ltd.


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> The ESP custom logo looks funny (block logo and Custom seem to be misaligned), and the EMG Hz certainly are an alarm bell, too. My money would be on a rebadged LTD


Well that can be explained. See, the headstock has a bit of wear on it. My tech checked it out and sait it looks like normal wear and flaking like you see on some older ESPs, or could've been caused by a previous owner trying to clean the finish and burning through the clear, as I guess the finishes were pretty thin on some of these. And I put in the HZ. It came with active EMGs but I was switching between those, HZ and DiMarzios and the HZ just happened to be in when I took the picture. Right now it has some pretty cool sounding mid 80s Schaller pickups in it. But as I said before, I had some concerns too but it was authenticated


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

Viginez said:


> i dunno, but the logo looks very clean (white) for it's age. don't they yellow a bit over time?
> also the bridge seems misplaced since the e-string is almost slipping off the fretboard. could be an ltd.


This is the EXP model which means it has a bolt on neck, so the neck had shifted a bit in the pocket, my tech was able to unscrew the neck and center it in the pocket. My guess is it was from sitting for a while, as the previous owner said he didn't really play it. If you look around you'll see it's pretty common on some older bolt on guitars. And that could be the light reflecting you're seeing, the logo is like a metallic white or silver with a gold border. Not yellowed but not bright white


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## Viginez (May 21, 2018)

oh, bolt on, i thought these were neck thrus, my bad.


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## RLG167 (May 21, 2018)

Viginez said:


> oh, bolt on, i thought these were neck thrus, my bad.


No problem, a lot of people don't really know about these, only a few hundred were made. The MX is a set neck while these EXP models were essentially an MX with a bolt on neck


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## NoodleFace (May 22, 2018)

Owned a couple ESPs as well as played some others. Owned a Caparison Dellinger, played a Horus, and played a Dellinger 7 prominence. I've never played higher end ESPs like custom shop stuff, but the Caparison's blew the ESPs I played out of the water.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 22, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> The ESP custom logo looks funny (block logo and Custom seem to be misaligned), and the EMG Hz certainly are an alarm bell, too. My money would be on a rebadged LTD



I swear this particular instrument popped up sometime in the last year with lots of question marks about all the different issues, verdict seemed to be it was in fact an LTD. 

Hopefully not though


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## RLG167 (May 22, 2018)

Dineley said:


> I swear this particular instrument popped up sometime in the last year with lots of question marks about all the different issues, verdict seemed to be it was in fact an LTD.
> 
> Hopefully not though


That's when I got concerned about it, but I have since gotten it authenticated apparently it was normal not to have a circle logo on the back


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## Shoeless_jose (May 22, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> That's when I got concerned about it, but I have since gotten it authenticated apparently it was normal not to have a circle logo on the back



Alright well glad you got it all sorted.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 22, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> I don't know if these are the original pups, but they definitely sound killer in this guitar! I've been using the 81 for maybe 5 or 6 years now, and I can honestly say these are probably a better fit for this guitar than an 81/85 would be. It sounds just perfect the way it is, to me at least



So they came in the guitar when you got it, but now you put them in... things are getting fishy again... ugh I feel like such a dick


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## RLG167 (May 22, 2018)

Dineley said:


> Alright well glad you got it all sorted.


Me too, I was worried for a minute because I had no idea some of these had the circle on the back, then someone said if it didn't have the circle it was a fake, but yeah I have gotten it authenticated.


Dineley said:


> So they came in the guitar when you got it, but now you put them in... things are getting fishy again... ugh I feel like such a dick


Don't feel like a dick, maybe it did come with them...i thought I put them in but I've had 5 or 6 different sets in since I got it. It definitely had active pickups at one point haha. Right now it has dimarzios but I'm about to swap in some 80's Schaller pups which I'm curious to see how they'll sound. So far my favorite has been the crunch lab, for some reason sounds really good in this guitar. Maybe because of the bolt on neck?


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## Andromalia (May 23, 2018)

That's a bit off topic, so I'll stop after that, but that headstock logo still looks bad.


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## RLG167 (May 23, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> That's a bit off topic, so I'll stop after that, but that headstock logo still looks bad.


Good point, we've gone way off topic haha. Although in response to that I will say you know the logos were all hand applied right? There's also a bit of wear to the headstock which may be what you're seeing, a bit of the logo and paint are worn off


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## Shoeless_jose (May 23, 2018)

Yeah sorry for going off topic. Can get backto the fact that ESP is most excellent now


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## RLG167 (May 23, 2018)

Dineley said:


> Yeah sorry for going off topic. Can get backto the fact that ESP is most excellent now


Yeah, I love ESP but I'm still curious to try Caparison. Can't imagine anything playing better than ESP though


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## Shoeless_jose (May 23, 2018)

RLG167 said:


> Yeah, I love ESP but I'm still curious to try Caparison. Can't imagine anything playing better than ESP though



ESP with clock inlays would be pretty stellar though haha


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## Lord Voldemort (May 23, 2018)

I owned an absolutely gorgeous Caparison Horus a few years back. Got on here in a trade, incidentally. 

I thought it was just the sexiest thing ever, and when I played it I could only assume that I looked awesome as fuck. 

It was weird though, because leading up to the trade I naturally did all kinds of research, reading threads and threads and watching YouTube videos and looking it up on websites, the usual thing I'm sure everyone does when they're excited for something. Then, when it arrived, I was super let down. 

It was just a guitar, no better or worse than what I traded for it. The neck felt like a regular Japanese guitar neck, fretwork was perfectly fine, a few sharp frets on the higher frets, typical. 

I've played a few guitars where you're like, holy shit this is something else. Strandbergs, some Kiesels, Ernie Ball Music Man, Parkers, custom shop Fenders, whatever. But the Caparison just felt like a guitar. 

Thus, lots of people are adamant that it feels and plays like a production model guitar and is overpriced compared to other guitars in the range. I feel like that is accurate. 

I ultimately traded her for a EBMM JP model, and it was quite an upgrade objectively speaking. Still, I miss the pointy headstock and the amazing clock inlays. Coolest inlays ever imo.


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## Robotechnology (May 24, 2018)

I personally like my Horus a lot. The neck shape is WAY different than on either of my 3 ESP’s (which are also all different from each other). I did happen to try before I bought. I’ve only played like 10 Caparisons in my life and I own 1 of them. That’s how hard they are to find to me. Last year I went to Japan and only saw about 5 and mind you I went to about THIRTY stores.

I’m a fan of the stock pickups. In combination with the volume know they are REALLY dynamic. Love the clock inlays and headstock shape (always have). Mine sounds great. I also never thought about comparing them to my ESP’s. Just always wanted a Horus and lucked upon one of the newer models.


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## Flappydoodle (May 24, 2018)

Robotechnology said:


> I personally like my Horus a lot. The neck shape is WAY different than on either of my 3 ESP’s (which are also all different from each other). I did happen to try before I bought. I’ve only played like 10 Caparisons in my life and I own 1 of them. That’s how hard they are to find to me. Last year I went to Japan and only saw about 5 and mind you I went to about THIRTY stores.
> 
> I’m a fan of the stock pickups. In combination with the volume know they are REALLY dynamic. Love the clock inlays and headstock shape (always have). Mine sounds great. I also never thought about comparing them to my ESP’s. Just always wanted a Horus and lucked upon one of the newer models.



You definitely missed the best store then 

Musicland Key, right off the Shibuya crossing, is the main dealer. They have maybe 30 Caparisons in stock.

I love the stock pickups too. They sound WAY different to any others I've tried. And you're right - super dynamic, amazing cleans, nice and bright with lots of clarity. I had to tweak amp and modeller settings quite a bit, but they sound absolutely great once things are dialled in. Then when I go back to another guitar, it sounds dark and muddy haha.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 24, 2018)

Robotechnology said:


> I personally like my Horus a lot. The neck shape is WAY different than on either of my 3 ESP’s (which are also all different from each other). I did happen to try before I bought. I’ve only played like 10 Caparisons in my life and I own 1 of them. That’s how hard they are to find to me. Last year I went to Japan and only saw about 5 and mind you I went to about THIRTY stores.
> 
> I’m a fan of the stock pickups. In combination with the volume know they are REALLY dynamic. Love the clock inlays and headstock shape (always have). Mine sounds great. I also never thought about comparing them to my ESP’s. Just always wanted a Horus and lucked upon one of the newer models.



that's because you didnt know where to look. If you wanna try Caps, you GOTTA go to Tokyo and you HAVE to go to Musicland Key if you want ANY decent number of Caps in a single store. that's why I went WAY out of my way on May 6th to go there; because I wanted to try a horus so badly.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 24, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> You definitely missed the best store then
> 
> Musicland Key, right off the Shibuya crossing, is the main dealer. They have maybe 30 Caparisons in stock.
> 
> I love the stock pickups too. They sound WAY different to any others I've tried. And you're right - super dynamic, amazing cleans, nice and bright with lots of clarity. I had to tweak amp and modeller settings quite a bit, but they sound absolutely great once things are dialled in. Then when I go back to another guitar, it sounds dark and muddy haha.



It's not there anymore, they moved the store further away. It used to be near Ikebe; not anymore. Think of if kinda further up in Centergai, around the area of Ishibashi.


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## Flappydoodle (May 24, 2018)

MatiasTolkki said:


> It's not there anymore, they moved the store further away. It used to be near Ikebe; not anymore. Think of if kinda further up in Centergai, around the area of Ishibashi.



Really? I was there just in February!


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## MatiasTolkki (May 24, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Really? I was there just in February!



They moved in April iirc.


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## MatiasTolkki (May 24, 2018)

yeah April 1st was the grand opening at the new location

http://www.musicland.co.jp/content/003/relocate-renewal/


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