# Fortin Sigil CS issues on Facebook



## Edika (Jul 23, 2020)

Hi all I follow one of the facebook pages, the Heavey Metal Amps & Pedals and there is a post that has blown up where the guy ordered a Fortin Sigil that has bleed issues on standby and he also says sounds super flubby.

He contacted Fortin about it and the reply was that the amp works as it should and all Sigil's have bleed through on standby. He sent a video showing the issue and they still claim the amp is fine. He's been asked to return it on his dime and since he doesn't want another amp that he'll be charged a 25% restocking fee as they still claim the amp is fine. He asked them if they check the amp and it proves it is faulty what happens then but he hasn't had a reply in 2 days. I'll share his video and screenshots as he has said it's ok to do so.










EDIT: I can't seem to be able to download the videos he posted so you might have to watch them on FB


----------



## Flappydoodle (Jul 23, 2020)

Without owning the amp myself, it’s hard to say who is right or wrong. 

I feel like the customer did not communicate the issue clearly. His emails are poorly written. I feel sorry for the customer service agents having to try and interpret. 

Fortin have interpreted it as him complaining about expected behaviour. To that end, they are totally correct to ask him to pay for shipping and restocking.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 23, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Without owning the amp myself, it’s hard to say who is right or wrong.
> 
> I feel like the customer did not communicate the issue clearly. His emails are poorly written. I feel sorry for the customer service agents having to try and interpret.
> 
> Fortin have interpreted it as him complaining about expected behaviour. To that end, they are totally correct to ask him to pay for shipping and restocking.


I saw the post on FB, and someone said in the comments that other Sigil owners claim their amps don't do this.


----------



## Edika (Jul 23, 2020)

It is true his emails didn't really translate well but he send them videos which he posted in the FB post of him having the standby switch on, playing and hearing sound bleeding through. He had another video where he turned off the amp while still on standby and it sounded like when you would turn off the amp while not on standby. 

To which Fortin replied that all Sigil amps do that and the amp is working fine. 

Concerning the muddines claim, I don't know and the guy didn't post any clips of him saying it. I have had 5 tube amps and none did this. One was the Randall Diavlo which was Fortin designed. On standby it and the other amps would be dead quiet and I'd be noodling waiting for the amp to warm up.

Now I know standby switches are not really doing anything aside from saving you have to hear the noises from turning on and off the amp. A lot of amp designers have chimed in saying that they do not prolong tube life or protect the amp in any way. It might just be a faulty switch or it might be something worse. 

What I don't understand is the claim that everything is fine, insisting on paying for return shipping and without even checking the amp claiming the buyer has to pay a 25% restock fee.


----------



## technomancer (Jul 23, 2020)

If this is like some of the Randalls Mike designed it may not actually have a standby switch and could just be a mute... that would explain bleed through being normal. It would also explain the post power off sound as the mute loses power before the audio path.

If they listened to the clips and don't think the amp is defective then yeah, telling him to return it under their normal return policy would be normal. I can't be arsed to go find the clips and try to make a tech judgement on an amp I don't know the design of, so not making a judgement call on how the amp is functioning. 

They could have handled it better and offered to check it etc, but you need to remember that Fortin is basically completely outsourced on these and they are not doing any of the actual assembly etc etc etc so they may be limited by the company contracted to do this stuff. Not a defense of how this was handled, just something to be aware of if you are going to buy an amp from them. The Sigil isn't really any different than buying a lunchbox from MF... if you don't like how it works and are bitching they are just going to tell you to send it back under their standard return policy.


----------



## sleewell (Jul 23, 2020)

just sell it to one of the boot lickers on the fb group for 95% of the cost. by law they cant say anything bad about fortin so they would just say it sounds huuuuge and then sell it a few weeks later.


----------



## Nicki (Jul 23, 2020)

oof.

Don't even know how to feel about this one. As far as the bleed is concerned. @technomancer is right. If the stand-by is actually just a mute, there will be bleed. The MT15 does the same thing, but what you hear when it's engaged is whisper quiet. The flubbiness though, is completely subjective. It could be that the amp was designed to have a loose bottom end or it could be bad tubes.

I can't say I have any experience with Fortin amps. I just generally don't think they're a good value. Another reason being is that I can't get them in a brick and mortar location so that if something goes wrong, I can go to a dealer and just not have to deal with shipping.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 23, 2020)

My T2 is similar. It has some bleed through when the standby is engaged. It's not perfectly quiet. 

But it's not as bad as in the video. I really don't think they heard the video. 

He also talks about feedback when the amp is turned off. Not sure what the deal about that is. I do wish the dude recorded everything.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 23, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> My T2 is similar. It has some bleed through when the standby is engaged. It's not perfectly quiet.
> 
> But it's not as bad as in the video. I really don't think they heard the video.
> 
> He also talks about feedback when the amp is turned off. Not sure what the deal about that is. I do wish the dude recorded everything.


he did post clips over in the heavy metal/amps group


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 23, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> he did post clips over in the heavy metal/amps group



Did he post clips of the feed back and muddiness? I only saw the standby video on the Randall amp one


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 23, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Did he post clips of the feed back and muddiness? I only saw the standby video on the Randall amp one


He posted the standby vid and the feedback while turning off vid.
Also that thread has some juicy tidbits about zach khoury getting fired from BC Rich.
Oh also the owner of Lone Wolf Audio trying to peddle his products in the thread .
Glenn Fricker wants to borrow the amp and rip Fortin a new one in a vid as well.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 23, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> He posted the standby vid and the feedback while turning off vid.
> Also that thread has some juicy tidbits about zach khoury getting fired from BC Rich.
> Oh also the owner of Lone Wolf Audio trying to peddle his products in the thread .
> Glenn Fricker wants to borrow the amp and rip Fortin a new one in a vid as well.



Welp. The backlash begins  

Also lol at engage not even lasting it at BCR. You'd think the dude would be the perfect fit there.


----------



## Edika (Jul 23, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Also that thread has some juicy tidbits about zach khoury getting fired from BC Rich.
> Oh also the owner of Lone Wolf Audio trying to peddle his products in the thread .





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Welp. The backlash begins
> 
> Also lol at engage not even lasting it at BCR. You'd think the dude would be the perfect fit there.



For the Engage guy, he seems to have made fun of someone with mental issues.

Dude the Lone Wolf Audio guy is so annoying! I mean his gate might be great and all but for fucks sake!


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jul 23, 2020)

I wanna read the thread. Where it at.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 23, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> I wanna read the thread. Where it at.


heavy metal amps/pedals group on fb.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jul 23, 2020)

When did music gear builders turn from nice people like mike soldano And Bruce egnater into utter assclowns. Like basically everyone nowadays.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 23, 2020)

Edika said:


> For the Engage guy, he seems to have made fun of someone with mental issues.!


Oh not only is he an annoying marketing shill guy, he's an ableist piece of shit? Explains a lot.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 23, 2020)

Heard the clip, saw the posts. Fuck Fortin, that amp had issues and if that is what is expected then pfffft. Highly doubt all Sigils do this, I bet we'd be hearing a lot more about it since this is not normal. Just poor service all around imo.


----------



## Steinmetzify (Jul 23, 2020)

Fired from BCR lololol


----------



## Edika (Jul 23, 2020)

I'd be surprised if anything should sound like this even with the mute function. I'd expect Fortin to get the amp, check it and see if there is an issue or not. And this is not a cheap amp to say the least.
Two things I took out of this either they are reluctant to admit fault, which is idiotic since there's bound to be issues with amps and it's in their best interest to address them, or if the amp is actually functioning like that then their product is not what I would consider worth the price. That shows supbar quality. I couldn't afford a Fortin amp anyway but this makes it easier to never consider them ever.


----------



## Ribboz (Jul 23, 2020)

Has anyone posted gut shots of the Sigil? Is it another copy?


----------



## technomancer (Jul 23, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> Has anyone posted gut shots of the Sigil? Is it another copy?



I've seen gutshots but nobody has bothered to trace it. Honestly the clips I've heard of it weren't that great or interesting enough to make me want to spend the time to do it either


----------



## Werecow (Jul 23, 2020)

technomancer said:


> I've seen gutshots but nobody has bothered to trace it. Honestly the clips I've heard of it weren't that great or interesting enough to make me want to spend the time to do it either



I've loved most of Fortin's stuff (apart from the Meshuggah), but i found the Sigil just boring as well. Every clip i've heard, Dover's equivalent little amp sounded tons better.

Fortin usually seems to be a love or hate thing, so i wasn't expecting _boring_ from the Sigil.


----------



## sakeido (Jul 23, 2020)

Werecow said:


> Fortin usually seems to be a love or hate thing, so i wasn't expecting _boring_ from the Sigil.



sums my thoughts on it perfectly

I went from "oooh neat, small affordable Fortin!" to zero interest in 30 seconds of listening to it. call me when he does a 20 watt Cali though


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Jul 23, 2020)

Fortin should take a page from Mesa Boogie's Customer Support manual.
And holy sh1t, 666 comments on that thread! lol


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 23, 2020)

Okay, I think I understand why there's a touch of signal bleed through on standby. Standby on this amp isn't cutting HT, it's just cutting the power tube screens which "shuts them off" without risking cathode poisoning. But... it doesn't fully shut them off. Even with G2 flapping in the breeze, some current still makes it to the plate from the cathode.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 23, 2020)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Fortin should take a page from Mesa Boogie's Customer Support manual.
> And holy sh1t, 666 comments on that thread! lol


Agreed. Fortin is good at taking things from other companies so why not acceptable customer service?


----------



## Vyn (Jul 23, 2020)

I think the correct way to handle these sorts of complains is in the middle - Customer initially pays shipping back to the seller. Seller (in this case Fortin), looks over the amp and determines if there is anything wrong. If there is something wrong, the customer is refunded the cost of shipping it back to the manufacturer, and a replacement is shipped out free of charge. If there's nothing wrong with the unit, the customer wears the shipping cost to the manufacturer and back to the customer if they still want the product, or issued a refund less the initial cost of shipping it back to the manufacturer for inspection.

IMO "the customer is always right" has gone way too far. It's what's stopping me from opening a boutique metal-oriented shop here, because I know I'm going to have to deal with people who are either stupid, entitled fuckwits or both.


----------



## narad (Jul 23, 2020)

After listening to clips of the Sigil, I would also be upset if there was no way to completely mute the sound.


----------



## Vyn (Jul 23, 2020)

This is in the Fortin Group:




So Fortin are willing to refund the shipping if there's an issue with the amp. Buyer is just being shit IMO


----------



## mongey (Jul 23, 2020)

maybe I'm weird but I couldn't care less if an amp bled some signal on stand by 

I guess if you are changing guitars with the amp cranked it could be annoying , but like most sane people I use my tuner to mute rather than walk over to the amp and hit standby


----------



## Ribboz (Jul 23, 2020)

Vyn said:


> This is in the Fortin Group:
> 
> View attachment 83046
> 
> ...



If Fortin said this from the beginning, this entire situation might have been avoided. Instead they said all the costs are on the customer. 

I would be upset too if I had to pay a restocking fee and shipping on a faulty product.


----------



## Vyn (Jul 23, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> If Fortin said this from the beginning, this entire situation might have been avoided. Instead they said all the costs are on the customer.
> 
> I would be upset too if I had to pay a restocking fee and shipping on a faulty product.



This is where the mis-understanding of the customer is. In the customer's mind, the product is faulty, regardless of whether or not the issue is normal operation for the amplifier or not (ignore the fact that there's something probably wrong with this unit for the moment). The customer asked if they had to pay shipping and a re-stocking fee on a 'faulty' product by the looks of it sarcastically after being told to read the terms and conditions of the returns policy, to which Fortin replied that if there is nothing wrong with the unit there will be a restocking fee. The communication wasn't he best on either side to be honest - customer went in full on attack mode, Fortin didn't explain the best initially (although having worked in retail for many, many years when you have customers like that even if you do everything absolutely perfectly they still aren't happy and will find fault with something).

I'm not saying Fortin gets a gold star/free pass here because it could have been worded better. However that customer is a fucking wanker. Going on the attack like that won't get you anywhere.


----------



## Ribboz (Jul 23, 2020)

Vyn said:


> This is where the mis-understanding of the customer is. In the customer's mind, the product is faulty, regardless of whether or not the issue is normal operation for the amplifier or not (ignore the fact that there's something probably wrong with this unit for the moment). The customer asked if they had to pay shipping and a re-stocking fee on a 'faulty' product by the looks of it sarcastically after being told to read the terms and conditions of the returns policy, to which Fortin replied that if there is nothing wrong with the unit there will be a restocking fee. The communication wasn't he best on either side to be honest - customer went in full on attack mode, Fortin didn't explain the best initially (although having worked in retail for many, many years when you have customers like that even if you do everything absolutely perfectly they still aren't happy and will find fault with something).
> 
> I'm not saying Fortin gets a gold star/free pass here because it could have been worded better. However that customer is a fucking wanker. Going on the attack like that won't get you anywhere.



You're being extreme saying the customer went on the "attack".

Also your timeline looks incorrect. Fortin did not say there would be no restocking fee until way after this became a public issue. All they said was read the return policy. Then it turned into a public issue when the customer became frustrated. Then Fortin said they would wave the restocking fee.

It seems like Fortin is trying to look like the good guys by waving the restocking fee, while trying to make the customer look like the bad guy. Look at the tone Fortin wrote in in their public response.


----------



## Vyn (Jul 23, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> You're being extreme saying the customer went on the "attack".
> 
> Also your timeline looks incorrect. Fortin did not say there would be no restocking fee until way after this became a public issue. All they said was read the return policy. Then it turned into a public issue when the customer became frustrated. Then Fortin said they would wave the restocking fee.
> 
> It seems like Fortin is trying to look like the good guys by waving the restocking fee, while trying to make the customer look like the bad guy. Look at the tone they wrote in in their public response.



The customer was definitely on the attack. A non-attacking email would look something like:

"Hi,

I have just purchased a Fortin Sigil and there seems to be an issue with the amp.

-describe issue-

What are my options for dealing with this?

Cheers,
Blah"

The point I'm trying to make which is in the return policy that the customer was told to read SAYS that there is no restocking fee if the item is faulty. In all likelyhood the amp is probably faulty, so the only thing the customer would be down on is time.


----------



## Werecow (Jul 23, 2020)

I don't know much about Fortin's surrounding company at all, but i ordered a Cali from them some time ago. I needed some explanations of how to do the bank transfer because the names for the systems between our two country's banks were different, and i'd never transferred money abroad before. When i got replies from Mike himself, he was the sweetest person to deal with, polite, and very clearly worded everything. Two or three times however along the chain of emails, i got a reply from someone who didn't sign their name as Mike and wrote in strangely formed language in what appeared to be an incredibly cringeworthy attempt to appear "cool". They also didn't seem to be able to provide any clear information about how things should procede, in fact they made it worse.

I was happy with the amp, but that is my main memory of dealing with the company, those weird-ass emails from whoever it was when it wasn't Mike.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jul 24, 2020)

Interesting I wonder if Hanser/JAM is the mfgr.


----------



## Ribboz (Jul 24, 2020)

Vyn said:


> The customer was definitely on the attack. A non-attacking email would look something like:
> 
> "Hi,
> 
> ...



I see what you mean, and I agree acting professional is the best response. But in my opinion OP acted pretty normal. People have expectations when they pay good money. It's easy to get frustrated.

About the return policy. It says that a faulty product that can't be repaired is either refunded or replaced. OP wants his money back. Fortin thinks it's fine. That means a restocking fee. The return policy does not specifically specify the option to return the product without a restocking fee if it is faulty. It actually says it's up to Fortins discretion. So them choosing to wave the restocking fee is their gesture to end this. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it. Meaning OP would not know them waving the restocking fee for his situation was an option, just from reading the return policy.

What I did not like was them publicaly making it sound like OP was wasting everyones time in their public response. Fortin needs to act more professional.


----------



## Vyn (Jul 24, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> I see what you mean, and I agree acting professional is the best response. But in my opinion OP acted pretty normal. People have expectations when they pay good money. It's easy to get frustrated.



The issue I think is that this is considered the normal way to behave these days and it shouldn't be. The problem has been over time, retailers have been more and more scared of badly behaved customers blowing up and causing damage to their brand (especially now that social media is a thing) so they capitulate to the customers demands which just re-enforces this bad behaviour. I agree it's easy to be frustrated, however it's also just as easy to take a moment to sit and think before you start typing a complaint.



Ribboz said:


> About the return policy. It says that a faulty product that can't be repaired is either refunded or replaced. OP wants his money back. Fortin thinks it's fine. That means a restocking fee. The return policy does not specifically specify the option to return the product without a restocking fee if it is faulty. It actually says it's up to Fortins discretion. So them choosing to wave the restocking fee is their gesture to end this. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it.
> 
> What I did not like was them publicaly making it sound like OP was wasting everyones time in their public response. They need to act more professional.



The restocking fee is only charged if there is nothing wrong found with the product, only the cost to ship the product back is required upfront. Fortin may think there isn't a fault initially however that can't be ascertained until the product gets back to Fortin. Fortin didn't explain this part well until the end of the email chain which is on them.

Is worth noting that most of these polices whilst appear concrete can be bent at the seller's discretion (and this applies to any seller really). Also goes back to my other point of be nice and polite when contacting them, because you'll be on better ground to get better service. No one likes serving an arsehole.


----------



## Captastic (Jul 24, 2020)

I thought it sounded pretty good here with Ola...and he's straight in with just a noise gate and no post processing magic...


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Jul 24, 2020)

Pretty sure, this "can't be muted on standby" stuttered sound, will be faithfully recreated in the upcoming Neural DSP Fortin SigHeil. It's like you have a guitar killswitch that is missing a solder joint.


----------



## lewis (Jul 24, 2020)

had enough of this kind of thing.

It just makes everyone concerned look like douchebags.

Ive been guilty of going off on one over the internet like this, and was rightfully torn a new one and embarrassed for it.

Both parties look like dickheads here tbh.

so much stubborn, overly defensive stances. "Im right"! "no!. I am"


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 24, 2020)

lewis said:


> had enough of this kind of thing.
> 
> It just makes everyone concerned look like douchebags.
> 
> ...


Damn Lewis thinks I'm a douchebag. Life is over.


----------



## lewis (Jul 24, 2020)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Damn Lewis thinks I'm a douchebag. *Life is over*.



well you acted like it was over an amp playing up so, i guess you have form for overreacting.


----------



## Jon Pearson (Jul 24, 2020)

Yeah I definitely see both sides of this, there is a certain strain of "customer-always-right" mentality that has really harmed the culture, because frankly most the time the customer is fucking knob like any other person.

At the same time, there are some instances where I have found that it is absolutely impossible to even get any attention as a customer with an issue if you don't show your ass. I'm a very easy-going person, and I've found the old "squeaky wheel gets the grease" thing proves to be true in a lot of cases. 

I think it comes down to this - if you are provided a service or a product, you should stand by it and assume positive intent from the customer. The same sentiment goes for if you are the customer - don't go in ready to be an asshole, assume the best.


----------



## Edika (Jul 24, 2020)

Reading the emails I would say the dude went all in on the first communication. I mean if he started with "Hi there seems to eba problem with the amp, it does so and so" instead "The amp is defective and I didn't pay so much to have a piece of garbage" it might have played of differently.

But the fact that the Fortin camp was all like "Oh the amp is fine, it's how it's supposed to sound so you return it on your dime because you don't want it anymore so here's a restock fee" instead of saying "Ok there's should be some bleed but maybe not as much. Send it back we'll check if it's working ok and if so refund you the shipping costs. Otherwise if the amp is fine and you still want to return it there'll be a restocking fee" it would have went a lot better.

Now that they've went to these lengths and Fortin said he'll check the amp and if it's faulty he'll refund him the shipping fees, he should just return it if he hasn't already.

I do not agree either with the customer is always right mentality but at least give the customer the benefit of the doubt. I mean I would be super upset if I paid £1300, or however much this costs in the UK, for a brand new amp that did that. I would be tempted to use strong language but I'd try and be as polite as possible but showing my frustration/annoyance.


----------



## USMarine75 (Jul 24, 2020)

A long time ago I asked Mike if he could mod a Marshall and make it "tight" like a Rhodes or Herbert and he said if that's what you want just buy those instead. Lost me at hello.

(*Now makes "tight" Marshalls)


----------



## Thaeon (Jul 24, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> A long time ago I asked Mike if he could mod a Marshall and make it "tight" like a Rhodes or Herbert and he said if that's what you want just buy those instead. Lost me at hello.
> 
> (*Now makes "tight" Marshalls)



Why do custom work when you can design something and have someone else build it? This is the exact opposite mentality of people like Dave Friedman. "Oh, my amp doesn't have something you'd like on it? Give me an extra couple hundy and it'll have that on your's."


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 24, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Why do custom work when you can design something and have someone else build it? This is the exact opposite mentality of people like Dave Friedman. "Oh, my amp doesn't have something you'd like on it? Give me an extra couple hundy and it'll have that on your's."



People give Dave shit, but yeah, I liked that about him.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 24, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Why do custom work when you can design something and have someone else build it? This is the exact opposite mentality of people like Dave Friedman. "Oh, my amp doesn't have something you'd like on it? Give me an extra couple hundy and it'll have that on your's."


I mean if I was ever in the market for some variation on a hot rodded marshall, Friedman and Splawn would be the first guys I go to. 



this meme kills me


----------



## Ribboz (Jul 24, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Why do custom work when you can design something and have someone else build it? This is the exact opposite mentality of people like Dave Friedman. "Oh, my amp doesn't have something you'd like on it? Give me an extra couple hundy and it'll have that on your's."





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> People give Dave shit, but yeah, I liked that about him.



Dave is a class act. Real professional. He modified my father's amp multiple times. Answered every question and helped us with our voltage problem.


----------



## Vyn (Jul 24, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I mean if I was ever in the market for some variation on a hot rodded marshall, Friedman and Splawn would be the first guys I go to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Technically someone could do that to Fortin or any other manufacturer at the moment. Amp circuits have been free game for a long time, the only thing that’s protected these days is the branding.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 24, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Technically someone could do that to Fortin or any other manufacturer at the moment. Amp circuits have been free game for a long time, the only thing that’s protected these days is the branding.


yeah definitely. I think it's just funnier because a lot of the rigtalk/TGP guys act like Larry amps are sacred cows. Nobody makes things in a vacuum.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jul 24, 2020)

Is Larry the Dumble of high gain?


----------



## oneblackened (Jul 24, 2020)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Is Larry the Dumble of high gain?


Well, kinda - except his amp output is negligible and spends so far as I can tell more time arguing on forums than actually building amps.


----------



## oracles (Jul 24, 2020)

oneblackened said:


> Well, kinda - except his amp output is negligible and spends so far as I can tell more time arguing on forums than actually building amps.



He's also a complete dickhead.


----------



## Werecow (Jul 24, 2020)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Is Larry the Dumble of high gain?



Just by the actual amps to me they are, but that's because i've hated or just felt meh about every Dumble and Larry clip i've ever heard 

Every Larry clip i've heard sounds like a Metalzone to me, but i've not heard many clips. This is coming from someone who owns two Fortin designed (or copied depending on your viewpoint) amps and loves them too


----------



## FearComplex (Jul 25, 2020)

The Larry clips I've heard on YT are indeed awful but mediocre guitar playing and dodgy mic positioning on a shitty cab will do that to any amp. For a proper representation check out Iced Earth - _Something Wicked This Way Comes. _


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 25, 2020)

That Larry thread was epic.

He's just an OG who doesn't give a fuck imo. There's no way in hell I'm spending 6k on an amp so I couldn't care less what he or his service was like. I do however wish more people took Friedman's approach. The guy is super easy to work with, cool af and helps people out with advice even if they aren't handing him money.

That kind of stuff goes a long way with me. Another great example is Joe Balaguer, I would support that company until the end just because he is nice af and is a class act. I can understand the "Fortin Army" being the same way just because to some people Fortin are the ultimate metal amp and maybe they haven't had personal issues but I have and even if I havent, I have seen enough of them where it just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Great product, great service. That's how you run a shop in my opinion but hey, I dont have a shop so who tf am I?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 25, 2020)

FearComplex said:


> The Larry clips I've heard on YT are indeed awful but mediocre guitar playing and dodgy mic positioning on a shitty cab will do that to any amp. For a proper representation check out Iced Earth - _Something Wicked This Way Comes. _



Same. Seems like the only people that own Larrys don't know how to dial them in.


----------



## gunch (Jul 25, 2020)

Is there a unicorn high gain amp that Iced Earth _hasn't_ recorded with?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 25, 2020)

gunch said:


> Is there a unicorn high gain amp that Iced Earth _hasn't_ recorded with?



The only amps I know he's used is Larry, Bogner, and Engl for sure.


----------



## gunch (Jul 25, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The only amps I know he's used is Larry, Bogner, and Engl for sure.



Thought he was a Wizard guy too


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 25, 2020)

gunch said:


> Thought he was a Wizard guy too



Haven't seen that. Wouldn't be surprised.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Jul 26, 2020)

Jon Pearson said:


> Yeah I definitely see both sides of this, there is a certain strain of "customer-always-right" mentality that has really harmed the culture, because frankly most the time the customer is fucking knob like any other person.
> 
> At the same time, there are some instances where I have found that it is absolutely impossible to even get any attention as a customer with an issue if you don't show your ass. I'm a very easy-going person, and I've found the old "squeaky wheel gets the grease" thing proves to be true in a lot of cases.
> 
> I think it comes down to this - if you are provided a service or a product, you should stand by it and assume positive intent from the customer. The same sentiment goes for if you are the customer - don't go in ready to be an asshole, assume the best.



Problem is, an awfully high percentage of people simple ARE incredibly spoiled, entitled arseholes with little empathy for others. That includes customers and business owners. Anybody who ever had a consumer-facing job will know. People treat waitresses, cashiers, call centre workers etc like shit.

However, businesses are often on the defensive because the number of people trying to scam, weasel their way into special treatment etc is massive. Think how many people eat the entire meal, then say it wasn't good and ask for it to be free!

It's why so many businesses end up hiding behind tons of inhuman written policies and layers of outsourced helpdesk customer service. Must be very difficult for smaller operations because if you try to be all friendly and human you WILL have a lot of customers who try to take the piss.


----------



## Jon Pearson (Jul 26, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Problem is, an awfully high percentage of people simple ARE incredibly spoiled, entitled arseholes with little empathy for others. That includes customers and business owners. Anybody who ever had a consumer-facing job will know. People treat waitresses, cashiers, call centre workers etc like shit.
> 
> However, businesses are often on the defensive because the number of people trying to scam, weasel their way into special treatment etc is massive. Think how many people eat the entire meal, then say it wasn't good and ask for it to be free!
> 
> It's why so many businesses end up hiding behind tons of inhuman written policies and layers of outsourced helpdesk customer service. Must be very difficult for smaller operations because if you try to be all friendly and human you WILL have a lot of customers who try to take the piss.



Oh I mean I totally agree, I've been on both sides of the situation and it's definitely the case that there are some people out there who just want to take their own baggage out on someone else. I'm lucky that has been the minority of experiences, but there has been a real uptick of buyers on Reverb in the past couple years that has me thinking I just don't want to sell there anymore (not to mention the increased fees).


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 30, 2020)

Update; dude said he got a full refund, even on return shipping. Although he claims Fortin didn't tell him if the amp was a lemon or not.


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Jul 30, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> ...he claims Fortin didn't tell him if the amp was a lemon or not.



We probably would never know.


----------



## Vyn (Jul 30, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Update; dude said he got a full refund, even on return shipping. Although he claims Fortin didn't tell him if the amp was a lemon or not.



Dude burnt any chance of goodwill from the get go so I’m not surprised that he didn’t get any feedback about the amp.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 30, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Dude burnt any chance of goodwill from the get go so I’m not surprised that he didn’t get any feedback about the amp.



I'm of the opinion if the amp was working fine, they could've brought it up to be all "I told you so" since this dude pretty much brought a shit-ton of grief to the brand.


----------



## Ribboz (Jul 30, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Dude burnt any chance of goodwill from the get go so I’m not surprised that he didn’t get any feedback about the amp.


Are we really going to go through this again?

This entire situation could have been avoided if Fortin had better customer service. 

...and better products. Lol


----------



## Vyn (Jul 30, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm of the opinion if the amp was working fine, they could've brought it up to be all "I told you so" since this dude pretty much brought a shit-ton of grief to the brand.



Depends if they have finished testing it/if they did test it. I imagine that they would have just given the dude his money back and written it off automatically without testing it. Even if it was deemed to be working fine, they'd have trouble selling that unit I think.



Ribboz said:


> Are we really going to go through this again?
> 
> This entire situation could have been avoided if Fortin had better customer service.
> 
> ...and better products. Lol



You know my stance on this, both parties dropped the ball and fucked up.


----------



## Nick (Jul 30, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Dude burnt any chance of goodwill from the get go so I’m not surprised that he didn’t get any feedback about the amp.



Exactly this, I commented early on in the fb thread that the guys emails went from zero to 100 out of nowhere while fortin were clearly still trying to troubleshoot.

The sentiment I got from them was that he had already decided what fortins response should be and when it didn't line up with what he expected his toys were immediately thrown out the pram like a crybaby customer anyone who's been in the service industry loves to hate.

Its been stated already but a little patience and common decency go a long way especially in the modern world where its so sadly lacking.


----------



## Meeotch (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm not gonna read the massive thread on Fortin's FB page, but are there any other Sigil owners here who can comment on the standby switch bleed (or lack thereof?) Seems like if there's enough people to confirm/deny the issue then that would help clear things up for the general public.

FYI I had an issue with a Zuul that was outside the warranty period. I paid return shipping and they repaired for free and shipped back to me. Turns out the issue hadn't been fixed so this time they covered shipping both ways plus a replacement pedal. I also bought (and sold) a Cali and even though I wasn't keen on wire transfer, I never had any issues with that transaction. In my book, Fortin's customer service is excellent (always promptly responded to my emails as well) and treat _respectful_ customers with respect.


----------



## Randy (Jul 31, 2020)

OP caused my nose to bleed, Jesus Christ. I've never read about a person with a legitimate complaint I cared less about, do you not interact with people in the real world?


----------



## Thaeon (Jul 31, 2020)

Two people were clearly having a bad month here. Lesson: Just, be cool man. Ask yourself what Jeff Lebowsksi would do and do that.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 31, 2020)

Meeotch said:


> I'm not gonna read the massive thread on Fortin's FB page, but are there any other Sigil owners here who can comment on the standby switch bleed (or lack thereof?) Seems like if there's enough people to confirm/deny the issue then that would help clear things up for the general public.


I've seen a couple people say their Sigils aren't doing that. I also saw a video of someone having the same standby issue. It seems to be hitting some amps and not others.


----------



## technomancer (Jul 31, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've seen a couple people say their Sigils aren't doing that. I also saw a video of someone having the same standby issue. It seems to be hitting some amps and not others.



It may also be a volume issue... ie you only notice it when it is louder. SWAG.

But yeah the CS side looks like both people being assholes. I've interacted with Mike directly on an amp mod and some issues I had with it with RF interference afterwards and he was great to deal with. No idea what the people between him and the customers are like on average these days aside from the Facebook group, which is a bit cult-like for my tastes.


----------



## Werecow (Jul 31, 2020)

technomancer said:


> It may also be a volume issue... ie you only notice it when it is louder. SWAG.
> 
> But yeah the CS side looks like both people being assholes. I've interacted with Mike directly on an amp mod and some issues I had with it with RF interference afterwards and he was great to deal with. No idea what the people between him and the customers are like on average these days aside from the Facebook group, which is a bit cult-like for my tastes.



Right after buying my Cali, i tried to join the group despite knowing its reputation just to see what type of posts are there. I have an unusual real name, and after i applied to join, it was refused, and Facebook also suddenly wanted me to send a scan of photo ID as proof of my name. The group mod obviously reported my account as fake as well. I just stopped using Facebook after that as i refuse to send ID to them. So that group and the mod can sod off in my eyes.


----------



## protest (Jul 31, 2020)

Werecow said:


> Right after buying my Cali, i tried to join the group despite knowing its reputation just to see what type of posts are there. I have an unusual real name, and after i applied to join, it was refused, and Facebook also suddenly wanted me to send a scan of photo ID as proof of my name. The group mod obviously reported my account as fake as well. I just stopped using Facebook after that as i refuse to send ID to them. So that group and the mod can sod off in my eyes.



....I feel like we need to know your name now lol


----------



## Werecow (Jul 31, 2020)

protest said:


> ....I feel like we need to know your name now lol



But knowing someone's true name gives you power


----------



## Edika (Jul 31, 2020)

Werecow said:


> But knowing someone's true name gives you power



Hey it's not "The Books of Magic" universe here


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 31, 2020)

Werecow said:


> Right after buying my Cali, i tried to join the group despite knowing its reputation just to see what type of posts are there. I have an unusual real name, and after i applied to join, it was refused, and Facebook also suddenly wanted me to send a scan of photo ID as proof of my name. The group mod obviously reported my account as fake as well. I just stopped using Facebook after that as i refuse to send ID to them. So that group and the mod can sod off in my eyes.



Honestly, I think they were doing you favors. Both preventing you from joining that echo chamber, AND getting you off that hellsite.


----------



## Werecow (Jul 31, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Honestly, I think they were doing you favors. Both preventing you from joining that echo chamber, AND getting you off that hellsite.



Yeh that's how i view it now. Was pissed off at the time though.

After seeing so many comments about the group since, i feel a bit embarrassed about owning an amp sometimes 
I've never been one to follow a herd, but i don't shy away from things i genuinely like if the herd happens to be following either  I do love the amp.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jul 31, 2020)

is your name dick wrangler?


----------



## Werecow (Jul 31, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> is your name dick wrangler?



Richard Wrangler


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Jul 31, 2020)

Saw a second video with the same issue.

Tbh I consider it a problem, how could they not test that? 

Fortin should have just not included a standby switch on these.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jul 31, 2020)

Edika said:


> Hey it's not "The Books of Magic" universe here



is it just me or are they just going out of their way to make the new series ugly and boring.


----------



## Edika (Jul 31, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> is it just me or are they just going out of their way to make the new series ugly and boring.



I haven't watched the series. I didn't know they actually made one. I was referring to the original 4 part graphic novel and the subsequent comic series from Vertigo.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jul 31, 2020)

Edika said:


> I haven't watched the series. I didn't know they actually made one. I was referring to the original 4 part graphic novel and the subsequent comic series from Vertigo.



ah ok. no I meant they rebooted the comic book. 

although we should get back on topic. I love comics you can dm me.


----------



## USMarine75 (Aug 1, 2020)

https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594486204/?tag=sevenstringorg-20

Pass this on to OP in the Fortin FB group.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 1, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/dp/1594486204/?tag=sevenstringorg-20
> 
> Pass this on to OP in the Fortin FB group.



Brutal.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Utter trash.



I have not, do not, and will not own anything from Fortin, whether as a designer (ie, like his Randall contract) or from Fortin themselves. Plus there are claims that he has stolen ideas from others.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Utter trash.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not, do not, and will not own anything from Fortin, whether as a designer (ie, like his Randall contract) or from Fortin themselves. Plus there are claims that he has stolen ideas from others.




Fuck I can't stand that guy. "People break jaws sometimes." What a douche.

I'll concede that the customer service on the screen grabs was bollocks however:

- That amp circuit by design will have some bleed through the standby. Standby in amplifier terms doesn't mean silent.

- The T/C's ONLY charge a restocking fee if there's nothing wrong with the product, if it's defective you get your money back and the shipping money you paid back. and I'm willing to bet if customers didn't have an attacking attitude when going for customer support then they might just go "Fuck it, we'll waive the restock and refund your shipping, you're a nice dude."

Admittedly Fortin could have addressed this issue from the onset by listing it in the product description however I'm going to guess that was an oversight in which this case turned out to be rather painful.


----------



## Edika (Aug 3, 2020)

Some people here have mentioned it is a mute circuit instead of a standby. I'm not sure if mute circuits would let some sound bleed through as I don't have much experience with electronics but if some amps have the effect and some don't, it seems like there are some components in some that where defective or not performing as they should.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Edika said:


> Some people here have mentioned it is a mute circuit instead of a standby. I'm not sure if mute circuits would let some sound bleed through as I don't have much experience with electronics but if some amps have the effect and some don't, it seems like there are some components in some that where defective or not performing as they should.



It completely depends on the amp design. I think I'm going to buy one of these just to map out the circuit and analyse it, otherwise I'm dying on this hill without evidence, however as an engineer I'll take an amp tech/designers word over the operation over guitarists commentating on it.


----------



## lewis (Aug 3, 2020)

the issue i have, is if its a "normal design" and "not a problem" and therefore "no big deal" as per all the Fortin official replies to people with these issues - then why was it not boldy and transparently stated this "feature" was on these amps in their marketing description and press release? etc etc

oh I know. Because if they told everyone in advance "oh btw the standby switch doesn't work like a normal stand by and still lets sound through completely even when active" - no one would have bought this amp.

isnt that fraud by misrepresentation?


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

lewis said:


> the issue i have, is if its a "normal design" and "not a problem" and therefore "no big deal" as per all the Fortin official replies to people with these issues - then why was it not boldy and transparently stated this "feature" was on these amps in their marketing description and press release? etc etc
> 
> oh I know. Because if they told everyone in advance "oh btw the standby switch doesn't work like a normal stand by and still lets sound through completely even when active" - no one would have bought this amp.
> 
> isnt that fraud by misrepresentation?



It's not actually, because 'standby' switches have been infamously been mislabelled since the dawn of time:

https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcar...unqATqXWSlU4HyD9Cl1thz9lpyPM5sgYacaXvmjg39rB8

TL;DR A standby switch kills HV power to the circuit so that the tubes have time to warm up, that's the original design. If an amp then remains silent on standby it's also got some sort of 'mute' in there shorting things to ground or some sort of load. Whether or not a standby switch is silent depends on the amp, it's just a feature that guitarists have misunderstood the function of since the Fender days.


----------



## lewis (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> It's not actually, because 'standby' switches have been infamously been mislabelled since the dawn of time:
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcar...unqATqXWSlU4HyD9Cl1thz9lpyPM5sgYacaXvmjg39rB8
> 
> TL;DR A standby switch kills HV power to the circuit so that the tubes have time to warm up, that's the original design. If an amp then remains silent on standby it's also got some sort of 'mute' in there shorting things to ground or some sort of load. Whether or not a standby switch is silent depends on the amp, it's just a feature that guitarists have misunderstood the function of since the Fender days.


thats all fine and good except 99.9% of all amps work to be muted when on standby


----------



## Nick (Aug 3, 2020)

Getting mad at amp designers for stealing ideas will have you getting mad A LOT


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

lewis said:


> thats all fine and good except 99.9% of all amps work to be muted when on standby



That's because their standby function is doing more than just cutting the HV. Standby isn't required to also mute your amp. That's the whole point of this.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Nick said:


> Getting mad at amp designers for stealing ideas will have you getting mad A LOT



And that's bad, just wait until you dive into pedals


----------



## Musiscience (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> It's not actually, because 'standby' switches have been infamously been mislabelled since the dawn of time:
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcar...unqATqXWSlU4HyD9Cl1thz9lpyPM5sgYacaXvmjg39rB8
> 
> TL;DR A standby switch kills HV power to the circuit so that the tubes have time to warm up, that's the original design. If an amp then remains silent on standby it's also got some sort of 'mute' in there shorting things to ground or some sort of load. Whether or not a standby switch is silent depends on the amp, it's just a feature that guitarists have misunderstood the function of since the Fender days.



Really interesting read, thanks!


----------



## Ribboz (Aug 3, 2020)

Fortin should remove this "feature". Have a simple on off. No stand by/mute. Simpler for him to build and less confusion.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> Fortin should remove this "feature". Have a simple on off. No stand by/mute. Simpler for him to build and less confusion.



IMO every manufacturer by this point should be intelligent enough to have some sort of auto-heat functionality. Then again, this is the industry that's spent 50 years re-badging the same circuit with subtle tweaks here and there.


----------



## Ribboz (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> IMO every manufacturer by this point should be intelligent enough to have some sort of auto-heat functionality.


That is what I'm talking about, but I would not phrase it in such an insulting way. The standby is unnecessary in modern amp design. Fortin would simplify this entire situation if he removed his mute.


----------



## Werecow (Aug 3, 2020)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Utter trash.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not, do not, and will not own anything from Fortin, whether as a designer (ie, like his Randall contract) or from Fortin themselves. Plus there are claims that he has stolen ideas from others.




I'm not a particular Fortin fan, but if you stop buying amps (or almost any equipment) based on them stealing ideas, you'll end up never buying anything again.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Edika said:


> Some people here have mentioned it is a mute circuit instead of a standby. I'm not sure if mute circuits would let some sound bleed through as I don't have much experience with electronics but if some amps have the effect and some don't, it seems like there are some components in some that where defective or not performing as they should.


I love when I mute my TV or my music and still have bleed through.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Nick said:


> Getting mad at amp designers for stealing ideas will have you getting mad A LOT


I don't care so much if they take an established amp brands circuit, and mod it, build on it, add options and tones the original doesn't get. I do however have an issue with a "designer" lifting his ideas from a real independent designer, though.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> That's because their standby function is doing more than just cutting the HV. Standby isn't required to also mute your amp. That's the whole point of this.


Never had an amp that wasn't silent on standby.


----------



## Mathemagician (Aug 3, 2020)

Throwing fuel on the fire here. Recently I started going back through my Iced Earth catalog and remembered I love the tone tone on SWTWC. And I thought it was some sort of modded Marshall you know, mid range dry, dynamics?

Turns out it was a “Larry Dino”. So I go looking and it’s some small EU builder who makes like 10 a year and they go for like $8k. Ouch, well no biggie so I start hunting for profiles or maybe “similar character” amps because I want crispy rhythm tones!

And I stumble on how apparently on several forums the Larry builder has commented that Fortin bought amp(s) directly from him years back, messaged him all sorts of tech questions.

And how recently a local brought him a Fortin Amp and that it was an exactly spec-lift of his Dino circuit, wiring schematics, like everything just with cheaper parts.

Is it true? Idk. Buuuuuuuuut it’d be super sketch if it was. I’d love some insight from those who more closely follow builders, etc. I’ve been digital a long time, which prompted my profile hunt.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Aug 3, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> Throwing fuel on the fire here. Recently I started going back through my Iced Earth catalog and remembered I love the tone tone on SWTWC. And I thought it was some sort of modded Marshall you know, mid range dry, dynamics?
> 
> Turns out it was a “Larry Dino”. So I go looking and it’s some small EU builder who makes like 10 a year and they go for like $8k. Ouch, well no biggie so I start hunting for profiles or maybe “similar character” amps because I want crispy rhythm tones!
> 
> ...



100 percent true. but...it's you know 100 percent true of like every amp after the first Marshall.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 3, 2020)

I find it strange at all, that one would install a pad rather than just disconnect the input from the circuit. It makes infinitely more sense from a design standpoint and from a financial standpoint. We could add additional unnecessary parts that don't actually make something completely silent, or we could just clip the circuit with a switch and have nothing from the guitar reach the input stage of the amp. Sounds like fancy extra stuff that overly complicates something that could be done more simply and elegantly with less. I had a Thrasher. It was okay. Nothing inherently special about it. It was tight. Lots of saturation. Great of those are the things that are most important to you. That's not it for me. All of Fortin's designs seem to have that same character to them though. I don't like Revv for the same reasons. They'll get the job done, but they're not what I would call colorful sounds. TL;DR: I won't be giving Fortin any money because of the uninspiring sounds. But I also have seen a few gaps in CS that should have been obvious situations that make me not want to consider even the pedals or the Sims.


----------



## lewis (Aug 3, 2020)

Majority = think and say a certain thing is a certain thing

Minority = they are wrong

Don't think it really works like that in the real world tbh.

I'm not doubting that ORIGINALLY a stand by wasn't designed to act also as a mute, but over the years it's become that and a majority of players now believe that's what a stand by is and does.

I don't really think you can call the majority wrong at this point. Especially when all amp builders except Fortin now randomly, have ensured standby also includes mute.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 3, 2020)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Never had an amp that wasn't silent on standby.



My Randall T2 is quieter than whisper quiet on standby, but from what I've heard from the Fortin Sigil videos, they're still awfully fucking loud on standby.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> 100 percent true. but...it's you know 100 percent true of like every amp after the first Marshall.



The first Marshall was lifted from the Fender Bassman.


----------



## Mathemagician (Aug 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> 100 percent true. but...it's you know 100 percent true of like every amp after the first Marshall.



But is someone else selling a JCM 800 that sounds basically identical and dying they “invented” it? I honestly don’t know.


----------



## technomancer (Aug 3, 2020)

Mathemagician said:


> But is someone else selling a JCM 800 that sounds basically identical and dying they “invented” it? I honestly don’t know.



There is a pretty unique aspect in Larry's design though that I haven't seen anywhere else except the Fortin. It's the whole Girth / Grind controls Fortin has on the Satan. I can't think of an amp that really had those controls in that spot like that before the Larry design. Not an earth shattering invention that altered the circuit landscape forever, but it is pretty novel and at least as unique as some of the stuff Randall Smith has patents for.

Not to mention buying amps from somebody who you then talk to about his circuits only to launch a business building a clone is just a pretty shitty thing to do no matter how you slice it.


----------



## Werecow (Aug 3, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> My Randall T2 is quieter than whisper quiet on standby, but from what I've heard from the Fortin Sigil videos, they're still awfully fucking loud on standby.



I guess the next question would be... is the tone good on standby?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 3, 2020)

technomancer said:


> There is a pretty unique aspect in Larry's design though that I haven't seen anywhere else except the Fortin. It's the whole Girth / Grind controls Fortin has on the Satan. I can't think of an amp that really had those controls in that spot like that before the Larry design. Not an earth shattering invention that altered the circuit landscape forever, but it is pretty novel and at least as unique as some of the stuff Randall Smith has patents for.
> 
> Not to mention buying amps from somebody who you then talk to about his circuits only to launch a business building a clone is just a pretty shitty thing to do no matter how you slice it.



Also worth noting that Larrys go back as far as the early '90s (maybe sooner). Larry (and I think Jon Schaffer as well) talks about showing his amp to Jon since he was a big fan of Iced Earth and eventually showed him one of his modded Marshalls in person. I think they met in 1992 with said amp and eventually used one of the first Dinos on Burnt Offerings.


----------



## Werecow (Aug 3, 2020)

technomancer said:


> There is a pretty unique aspect in Larry's design though that I haven't seen anywhere else except the Fortin. It's the whole Girth / Grind controls Fortin has on the Satan. I can't think of an amp that really had those controls in that spot like that before the Larry design. Not an earth shattering invention that altered the circuit landscape forever, but it is pretty novel and at least as unique as some of the stuff Randall Smith has patents for.
> 
> Not to mention buying amps from somebody who you then talk to about his circuits only to launch a business building a clone is just a pretty shitty thing to do no matter how you slice it.



My first ever amp was a Park G10. I don't know where it was in the circuit, but it had gain1 and gain2 controls that functioned exactly the same (affected gain in the low end, and the high end). I don't know when the Larry first came out, or the Park, but i got the Park in early or mid 90's. I last fired it up last year or so, and the gains really do alter the tone in the same way they do on my Cali (just from a usability way anyway).

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/93/68/87936839dd208d1140fc1e19fdd6c978.jpg


----------



## Vostre Roy (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> It's not actually, because 'standby' switches have been infamously been mislabelled since the dawn of time:
> 
> https://www.sweetwater.com/sweetcar...unqATqXWSlU4HyD9Cl1thz9lpyPM5sgYacaXvmjg39rB8



Interesting reads, goes along (with a less aggressive tone) what I've read on Kevin O'Connor's London Power website: https://londonpower.com/standby-switch/

The amp I'm currently (super slowly) building won't have a standby switch at all. On the other amps I have, I always flick them both on at the same time and when I turn it off, I start with the power switch and then the standby. My Joyo PXL's mute is doing the job in-between sets


----------



## technomancer (Aug 3, 2020)

Werecow said:


> My first ever amp was a Park G10. I don't know where it was in the circuit, but it had gain1 and gain2 controls that functioned exactly the same (affected gain in the low end, and the high end). I don't know when the Larry first came out, or the Park, but i got the Park in early or mid 90's. I last fired it up last year or so, and the gains really do alter the tone in the same way they do on my Cali (just from a usability way anyway).
> 
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/93/68/87936839dd208d1140fc1e19fdd6c978.jpg



Now I need to find a park schematic  Most amps with gain 1 and gain 2 are just literally dumping signal to ground at different spots in the circuit and are from cascading the gain stages on something like a Marshall plexi circuit that had 2 channels originally.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Aug 3, 2020)

the fryette deliverance does something cool too but that came out much later.


----------



## Werecow (Aug 3, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Now I need to find a park schematic  Most amps with gain 1 and gain 2 are just literally dumping signal to ground at different spots in the circuit and are from cascading the gain stages on something like a Marshall plexi circuit that had 2 channels originally.



Yeh i doubt it's the same in the schematic, it sure feels the same to use though, and just feels like the same sorta idea. One gain gives you the big flubby doomier vibe and the other the tight punchy upper gain.


----------



## technomancer (Aug 3, 2020)

Werecow said:


> Yeh i doubt it's the same in the schematic, it sure feels the same to use though, and just feels like the same sorta idea. One gain gives you the big flubby doomier vibe and the other the tight punchy upper gain.



Yeah probably just normal gain controls... the similar function tends to come from the ability to pass a ton of signal through early in the circuit that distorts everything from there back. Assuming the Larry is the same as the Satan schematic I have it's interesting as it is actually a cathode follower driving tone stack-ish filters.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> 100 percent true. but...it's you know 100 percent true of like every amp after the first Marshall.


But there is a difference between a spec-lift clone, and a tricked out version of something with lineage to a certain amp. ie, Fryette started (from what I've read) modding Marshalls, and then went into making his own amps, which have lots of options, and sound like he took influence from Hiwatt and Marshall, but don't sound like complete rip offs of either.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

technomancer said:


> There is a pretty unique aspect in Larry's design though that I haven't seen anywhere else except the Fortin. It's the whole Girth / Grind controls Fortin has on the Satan. I can't think of an amp that really had those controls in that spot like that before the Larry design. Not an earth shattering invention that altered the circuit landscape forever, but it is pretty novel and at least as unique as some of the stuff Randall Smith has patents for.
> 
> Not to mention buying amps from somebody who you then talk to about his circuits only to launch a business building a clone is just a pretty shitty thing to do no matter how you slice it.


Exactly.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Werecow said:


> My first ever amp was a Park G10. I don't know where it was in the circuit, but it had gain1 and gain2 controls that functioned exactly the same (affected gain in the low end, and the high end). I don't know when the Larry first came out, or the Park, but i got the Park in early or mid 90's. I last fired it up last year or so, and the gains really do alter the tone in the same way they do on my Cali (just from a usability way anyway).
> 
> https://i.pinimg.com/originals/87/93/68/87936839dd208d1140fc1e19fdd6c978.jpg


Might be similar to the treble/normal channel volumes on older British amps.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 3, 2020)

Yep, it was 1992. A post Larry Grohmann wrote on his FB page, where I guess someone called him out for stealing a Mesa Mark or Marshall VM circuit?

"I really don't know, who all meanwhile have adapted my Bite & Punch circuit and what circuit the Mark series *[pretty sure he means the Mesa Mark series]* or the Marshall VM *[Vintage Modified, came out in 2006/2007, does something similar]* is using, because I don't check into other amps, except I'd have to verify something for myself, whether it's plagiarized off my amp designs





By any means I have designed the Bite & Punch controls already back in 1992 and even my very first DINO 802 from Jan 1992 has had this Bite & Punch controls, as well as the completely rebuilt 3 channel Marshall, Kirk Hammet of Metallica has buyed in Nov 1992 - this one"


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I don't like Revv for the same reasons. They'll get the job done, but they're not what I would call colorful sounds.


You obviously haven't played a Revv irl lol


----------



## USMarine75 (Aug 3, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> You obviously haven't played a Revv irl lol



The worst part of internet opinions is everyone thinks their subjective opinions are fact and/or matter. 

Him: "Revv sound like shit."

Me: "Why?"

Him: "Because I don't like how they sound."

Me: "What do you like?"

Him: "Fortin."

Me: "Why?"

Him: "Because they sound good to me."

^ every single thread on SSO asking for advice. 1% of the time opinions are built on facts - tremolo is weak, reverb is metallic, gain on channel 2 is flubby, etc...


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> That is what I'm talking about, but I would not phrase it in such an insulting way. The standby is unnecessary in modern amp design. Fortin would simplify this entire situation if he removed his mute.





Spaced Out Ace said:


> Never had an amp that wasn't silent on standby.



I've never left an amp on standby outside of warming it up initially. If the amp needs to be silent, it goes off.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I've never left an amp on standby outside of warming it up initially. If the amp needs to be silent, it goes off.


Cool. I've still never had an amp that wasn't silent on standby.


----------



## Nick (Aug 3, 2020)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I don't care so much if they take an established amp brands circuit, and mod it, build on it, add options and tones the original doesn't get. I do however have an issue with a "designer" lifting his ideas from a real independent designer, though.



You must hate mesa boogie then. Also any builder with a depth control which they all took directly from Steve Fryette and no royalties were paid


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 3, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> The worst part of internet opinions is everyone thinks their subjective opinions are fact and/or matter.
> 
> Him: "Revv sound like shit."
> 
> ...


I've heard enough shitty amp demos over the years to not form any strong opinions about an amp til I've personally tried it. Sadly most people are content to jump to conclusions about gear without trying it first.
I would gladly put my Revv up against any other 3+ channel amp out there. It says something when it more than competes with my Mesa MkIII, Peters FSM, Peavey XXX, Randall Archetype and PRS Archon.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 3, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> You obviously haven't played a Revv irl lol



Actually, I have. Was not inspired by it at all.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 3, 2020)

I have a friend who SWEARS by his Revv as well. It smoked his old Archon. From what I can tell, Revv was one of those few "internet" amp companies that actually lived up to the hype.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 3, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I've heard enough shitty amp demos over the years to not form any strong opinions about an amp til I've personally tried it. Sadly most people are content to jump to conclusions about gear without trying it first.
> I would gladly put my Revv up against any other 3+ channel amp out there. It says something when it more than competes with my Mesa MkIII, Peters FSM, Peavey XXX, Randall Archetype and PRS Archon.



When you say it competes with all of those amps, that explains a lot. Most of those I also find uninspiring to play, with the exception of the FSM, which I've not come across IRL.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Actually, I have. Was not inspired by it at all.


Which model?


HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I have a friend who SWEARS by his Revv as well. It smoked his old Archon. From what I can tell, Revv was one of those few "internet" amp companies that actually lived up to the hype.


Revv absolutely lives up to the hype imo. 
The Archon and Revv are completely different beasts. It's like apples and oranges imo. The Revv 120 and 100p can ape the rectoish vibes like the archon, but they can also cover way more tones.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

Nick said:


> You must hate mesa boogie then. Also any builder with a depth control which they all took directly from Steve Fryette and no royalties were paid


I like the Mark series, which is a Fender based circuit that has been modded, built upon, and made quite different from the source material. Not a fan of the Rectos, though. They are the exact opposite of what I want across the frequency spectrum.


----------



## oracles (Aug 3, 2020)

Revv makes a totally fine amp, but the Generator line does nothing for me. The D20 and the 7-40 felt and sounded better to me than the 100P or the 120.


----------



## Ribboz (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I've never left an amp on standby outside of warming it up initially. If the amp needs to be silent, it goes off.


You're ignoring the point we made. Fortin made a bad design. But Fortin could fix it by removing the mute feature in future revisions.


----------



## Matt08642 (Aug 3, 2020)

Schrödinger's Amp: Simultaneously the best and absolute shit until you're in the same room as it and find out


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 3, 2020)

Matt08642 said:


> Schrödinger's Amp: Simultaneously the best and absolute shit until you're in the same room as it and find out



Marshalls makes (IMO) both one of the best amps (8100) and worst amps (TSL60) I've tried.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> You're ignoring the point we made. Fortin made a bad design. But Fortin could fix it by removing the mute feature in future revisions.



I disagree that it's a bad design - I'm currently trying to source one of these to back up my claims however I believe it's functioning exactly as designed. Fortin could add the additional functionality later on, however after this I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't make any more.

I guess why I'm so pissed at this whole situation and spending so much time defending this is coming from two main angles. The first is from an engineering/designer perspective of people assuming that unintentional functionality (like a standby switch also providing a mute function) is part of the actual functionality and then when the device/chicken/fridge/whatever doesn't function as the customer now expects it to, it's somehow faulty when it was never designed or marketed to have that feature in the first place. The second is from a retail perspective of having to sell devices (before technical work I used to work in speciality electrical retail selling electrical test equipment/components/etc) that are worth large amounts of money ($1400USD isn't much in the guitar world however to a lot of people, that's a fucking lot of money) who then haven't considered the purchase or researched it and then when it doesn't perform to their expectations (which are informed by zero research on the damned product they are purchasing and they just expect it to work exactly like the previous one they bought because they are al the same right? ARGH), they come back in shouting "IT'S FAULTY, GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK OR I'LL CANCEL THE SHIT OUT OF YOU ON TWITTER."

For example, a quick reading of the Sigil Manual that's available for download on the Fortin website, on the very page for the Sigil (not even hidden in a support section like most tech companies, it's on the main damned page) yields this little gem:




Which doesn't say anything about it providing a mute function, just that it's putting the power tubes only into standby. I'd be willing to bet that barely anyone who bought a Sigil read the manual before grabbing their credit card.


----------



## Werecow (Aug 3, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Marshalls makes (IMO) both one of the best amps (8100) and worst amps (TSL60) I've tried.



Bizarrely, when i've owned Marshalls, i've felt like that about the same amp on alternate days. I had to give up on them or i'd pull my hair out.


----------



## Ribboz (Aug 3, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I disagree that it's a bad design - I'm currently trying to source one of these to back up my claims however I believe it's functioning exactly as designed. Fortin could add the additional functionality later on, however after this I also wouldn't be surprised if he didn't make any more.


You know what proves it is a bad design? This entire situation. If it were a regular standby, or had no standby at all, none of this would have happened.



Vyn said:


> I guess why I'm so pissed at this whole situation and spending so much time defending this is coming from two main angles. The first is from an engineering/designer perspective of people assuming that unintentional functionality (like a standby switch also providing a mute function) is part of the actual functionality and then when the device/chicken/fridge/whatever doesn't function as the customer now expects it to, it's somehow faulty when it was never designed or marketed to have that feature in the first place.


But this happens from bad design. A good designer understands intuitive design. As in understands how a person will perceive and use the product. Bad design leads to confusion. If Fortin wanted to avoid everyone expecting it to function like a standard standby, he should have not put a standby switch on it. He should have had a power switch in front, and a wattage selector on the back. Like most companies do. 




Vyn said:


> The second is from a retail perspective of having to sell devices (before technical work I used to work in speciality electrical retail selling electrical test equipment/components/etc) that are worth large amounts of money ($1400USD isn't much in the guitar world however to a lot of people, that's a fucking lot of money) who then haven't considered the purchase or researched it and then when it doesn't perform to their expectations (which are informed by zero research on the damned product they are purchasing and they just expect it to work exactly like the previous one they bought because they are al the same right? ARGH), they come back in shouting "IT'S FAULTY, GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK OR I'LL CANCEL THE SHIT OUT OF YOU ON TWITTER."


But that happens. You've shown you understand why a customer reacts this way. Either grow thicker skin, or stop letting your frustration of other customer experiences split out into this. 




Vyn said:


> For example, a quick reading of the Sigil Manual that's available for download on the Fortin website, on the very page for the Sigil (not even hidden in a support section like most tech companies, it's on the main damned page) yields this little gem:
> 
> View attachment 83406
> 
> ...


This proves my point why it is a bad design though. By calling it standby, people then expect a standard standby. If sound bleeds through, like people have shown, then it must be faulty.


----------



## Thaeon (Aug 3, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Which model?
> 
> Revv absolutely lives up to the hype imo.
> The Archon and Revv are completely different beasts. It's like apples and oranges imo. The Revv 120 and 100p can ape the rectoish vibes like the archon, but they can also cover way more tones.



100p. It wasn’t bad. Just wasn’t awesome either.


----------



## Ribboz (Aug 3, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Marshalls makes (IMO) both one of the best amps (8100) and worst amps (TSL60) I've tried.


Wait the Marshall Valvestate 8100 is one of the best? Is it good or is there another 8100 marshall amp?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 3, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> Wait the Marshall Valvestate 8100 is one of the best? Is it good or is there another 8100 marshall amp?


I fucking loved my Valvestate when I briefly owned it. I woulda kept it if I knew how to fix the volume dropout issue.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

Ribboz said:


> You know what proves it is a bad design? This entire situation. If it were a regular standby, or had no standby at all, none of this would have happened.
> 
> 
> But this happens from bad design. A good designer understands intuitive design. As in understands how a person will perceive and use the product. Bad design leads to confusion. If Fortin wanted to avoid everyone expecting it to function like a standard standby, he should have not put a standby switch on it. He should have had a power switch in front, and a wattage selector on the back. Like most companies do.
> ...



I think we're going to continue to disagree (which isn't a bad thing at all) from a technical/semantic/life view point. That being said, I appreciate the discussion because otherwise I'd be living in some confirmation bias echo chamber and that's not healthy for anyone.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Aug 3, 2020)

If I put my car in park. It’s parked. 
If I buy a car and put it in park ad it’s not parked. That’s no good ya know?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> If I put my car in park. It’s parked.
> If I buy a car and put it in park ad it’s not parked. That’s no good ya know?


It's normal for it to move some when it is put in park. Lol


----------



## diagrammatiks (Aug 3, 2020)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> It's normal for it to move some when it is put in park. Lol



that can't be right. 

replace park with neutral?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> that can't be right.
> 
> replace park with neutral?


Nah, it'll be fine. But if you'd like a refund, just pay to get it back to us several states away, and we'll give you a refund (excluding shipping both ways plus a 25% restock fee). Nice doing business with you!

-Unzips pants- Would you like some rain, Mr. Matiks?


----------



## protest (Aug 3, 2020)

I look at it this way. Would Mesa build something like that without putting it in their manual in bold letters?

Whether or not it's functioning properly, it's still outside of the realm of what would be considered normal for a standby switch. As the manufacturer you've made the decision to incorporate a feature that is going to catch people off guard, and so it's your responsibility to educate your buyers. If you don't do that you're going to cause an unnecessary headache for yourself.

The customer service issue...I don't care that the guy wasn't the easiest person to deal with, that was a poor job of customer service, plain and simple. There is no "both sides blah blah." Only one side gets paid to have that conversation, and they seemed very disinterested in doing their job. I get that they made it right, but that's also after the fact...and after things went public.


----------



## Vyn (Aug 3, 2020)

I think I'm going to bow out of this thread for a while until I manage to get my hands on one of these amps, tear it down and report back any findings. I've re-iterated my stance on a number of things in this thread.


----------



## narad (Aug 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> If I put my car in park. It’s parked.
> If I buy a car and put it in park ad it’s not parked. That’s no good ya know?



The earth is in constant rotation and orbit. Proportionally you're non-parked car is approximately as parked as all the other cars that you consider parked, so I'm afraid we cannot take it back without a restocking fee.


----------



## Werecow (Aug 4, 2020)

narad said:


> The earth is in constant rotation and orbit. Proportionally you're non-parked car is approximately as parked as all the other cars that you consider parked



Use that line if you're ever about to get a parking ticket


----------



## GunpointMetal (Aug 4, 2020)

Why would it even by called a standby switch if it doesn't, uh, actually put the amp in standby? To be fair, I haven't owned a tube amp in like 10 years at least, but all 5 I owned (Marshall, Carvin, Peavey) before that had a standby switch, and that switch cut the sound from going to cab when it was engaged. As did the standby switch on anyone else's amp I ever used.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Aug 4, 2020)

Vyn said:


> I think I'm going to bow out of this thread for a while until I manage to get my hands on one of these amps, tear it down and report back any findings. I've re-iterated my stance on a number of things in this thread.


Sorry...but you seem pretty ridiculous here. You're trying your hardest to make some scientific point that simply doesn't matter.

YES, every guitarist in the world besides maybe a select few fully expects the standby to mute the amp like every single other amp in the world does and yes Fortin is a complete dick with horrible customer service.

Buying a sigil to prove some technical point in 2 months when nobody cares anymore sounds like a complete waste of money. I dont think anything you report back would change anyone's mind about Fortin at that point.




Also...

"I disagree that it's a bad design - I'm currently trying to source one of these to back up my claims however I believe it's functioning exactly as designed"


If it was intended and functioning as designed it is a poor decision to have been made which = bad design. Anyone who has this "design" issue is not happy about it and on top of that why is there only a few of these Sigil with this "design"?

If every single Sigil had this bleed than I would say ok, it was a poor design. But to my knowledge not all Sigils do this which would mean it is faulty/has QC issues. It cant be both, its one or the other and in my opinion either way you look at it is a bad deal and then the way Fortin handles the issues? No thanks, im good staying away from all that nonsense.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Aug 4, 2020)

the thing is that even if is unnecessary a standby that disconnects the b+ necessarily has to mute the amp. The tubes aren't getting power they can't do anything.

a standby that doesn't do that...but also doesn't mute the amp.

what the hell is it even doing.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636 (Aug 4, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> the thing is that even if is unnecessary a standby that disconnects the b+ necessarily has to mute the amp. The tubes aren't getting power they can't do anything.
> 
> a standby that doesn't do that...but also doesn't mute the amp.
> 
> what the hell is it even doing.


Well, you saw it in the video I assume hahah.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 4, 2020)

So I decided to watch the Louis Torres video and uh, he talks about Mike and his lawyer sending him a cease and desist? Dafuq?


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Aug 4, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> So I decided to watch the Louis Torres video and uh, he talks about Mike and his lawyer sending him a cease and desist? Dafuq?



For what? For ranting in his video re the Sigil and the Fortin? I've been avoiding watching his channel. Dude needs to get better mics.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 4, 2020)

MASS DEFECT said:


> For what? For ranting in his video re the Sigil and the Fortin? I've been avoiding watching his channel. Dude needs to get better mics.


Dude has started to mic up, and it sounds better than his earlier stuff, but he doesn't want to do it through a DAW and shit apparently, so you get a more "realistic" representation of the amp or product he is using. The idea being that no one has their ear close to the speaker, and that a room sound is quite different than a mic'd sound.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 4, 2020)

MASS DEFECT said:


> For what? For ranting in his video re the Sigil and the Fortin? I've been avoiding watching his channel. Dude needs to get better mics.



That's all he says. Sounds like he's still in the midst of things so I guess he can't say much? Idk.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 4, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's all he says. Sounds like he's still in the midst of things so I guess he can't say much? Idk.


Is there a new video or something?

Also, LOL. I got blocked on Facebook by Fortin. Useless dickheads.


----------



## MASS DEFECT (Aug 4, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's all he says. Sounds like he's still in the midst of things so I guess he can't say much? Idk.


I see it now. Even his replies to the user comments is on the "safe" side.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 4, 2020)

Fuck Fortin.


----------



## SpaceDock (Aug 4, 2020)

I had a Randall head back in the day that the standby was not a true signal kill, so I just didn’t play my guitar when in stand by. When I read through this issue, the guy wanting his money back just should have been given his money back if he paid for return shipping, that would have fixed the whole issue, but bitching about some carryover in standby, really? All this over that? First world problems


----------



## lewis (Aug 5, 2020)

I had a Randall T2 where standby had a TINY amount of signal/sound being made. but it was tiny. Super quiet

every other amp ive ever had, have all been completely quiet on Standby.


----------



## USMarine75 (Aug 5, 2020)

lewis said:


> I had a Randall T2 where standby had a TINY amount of signal/sound being made. but it was tiny. Super quiet
> 
> every other amp ive ever had, have all been completely quiet on Standby.



Is this just that the power tubes are bypassed but somehow the preamp tube "line level" is still being passed? I could see that as an error in design that isn't bad for the power tubes just bad if you want dead silence. Similar to old amps where you can turn the volume down to 0 and crank the reverb and you will still get leakage volume from the reverb tank.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 5, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Is this just that the power tubes are bypassed but somehow the preamp tube "line level" is still being passed? I could see that as an error in design that isn't bad for the power tubes just bad if you want dead silence. Similar to old amps where you can turn the volume down to 0 and crank the reverb and you will still get leakage volume from the reverb tank.



The T2/V2 have solid state power sections with a pre amp tube in them for some extra seasoning. 

Otoh every other tube amp I've had never had that issue. 
IF this was done by design, then since we're speaking of manuals... Maybe they should have said in the manual that the standby switch doesn't actually *mute* the signal? And still has some bleed through?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 5, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Is this just that the power tubes are bypassed but somehow the preamp tube "line level" is still being passed? I could see that as an error in design that isn't bad for the power tubes just bad if you want dead silence. Similar to old amps where you can turn the volume down to 0 and crank the reverb and you will still get leakage volume from the reverb tank.



The T2/V2 have solid state power sections with a pre amp tube in them for some extra seasoning. 

Otoh every other tube amp I've had never had that issue. 
IF this was done by design, then since we're speaking of manuals... Maybe they should have said in the manual that the standby switch doesn't actually *mute* the signal? And still has some bleed through?


----------



## remorse is for the dead (Aug 5, 2020)

Haven't read the whole thread but just to chime in. Out of nine tube amps I own, only one with a similar sound bleeding while on stand by. My ENGL Fireball 60.


----------



## USMarine75 (Aug 5, 2020)

remorse is for the dead said:


> Haven't read the whole thread but just to chime in. Out of nine tube amps I own, only one with a similar sound bleeding while on stand by. My ENGL Fireball 60.



True, but no one can hear it anyways.

I kid, I kid...


----------

