# Anyone play ONLY with their fingers? (metal/shred/etc)



## SnowfaLL (Nov 16, 2011)

Something i've been hardcore experimenting with in the past year has been different picks, picking techniques and etc.. I've never been happy with standard picks, due to many circumstances (slipping out of my hands, or difficulties in hybrid picking or tapping while holding one, etc) - so Im searching for a better solution.

For the past 6 months, ive been working on using a thumb pick shaved down to the size of a Jazz III, and its been going good. I can use my other fingers fine for plucking other strings, and I still have enough attack for metal with it. My problem now, is that its SO hard to find a good thumb pick material that sounds good.. Most give that awful plastic "plunk" sound against the strings, since they are all like garbage plastic (dunlop and etc).. I even superglued a Jazz III to a thumb-attachment but that wasnt stable enough and even then I dunno.

So while I was watching some Richie Kotzen videos, I noticed he doesnt use a pick for anything nowadays. It got me thinking, maybe this could work for me too, even for metal? I got used to using my index finger nail for picking, particularily when I pick up a guitar without a pick handy (happens often somehow) so I can speed pick decently, even with the upstrokes, although it sounds messy and the upstrokes are abit weak (very little portion of nail attacking it) - but its enough that I wonder if I should attempt to spend some serious time into this and seeing if it works..

Heres Kotzen though, he does a hybrid technique rather than my "index nail" technique but granted, thats for that genre of music.. Notice his solos too, all fingers only.. although its a lot of legato, its still awesome as hell.

 


Anyways, I know theres a few players out there who use fingers-only on guitar even for faster/heavier music (John McLaughlin/Paco mainly come to mind for pure speed, even though its classical style) - then theres Brett Garsed.. Is there anyone in the metal genre that uses only fingers for their playing??

I actually found a George Lynch video of him playing Mr Scary without a pick.. kinda cool, not a hard/fast riff but the general idea im going for..




Anyone here experiment with this? It'd be awesome if I could get to a point where I would never need to use a pick again.. for any style of music. Its hard to know if my nail can get decent metal tone right now with only a Digitech RP250 at home though =[


----------



## ElRay (Nov 16, 2011)

No metal, but I play completely fingerstyle. I just feel "disconnected" when using a pick. And I like double-stops and chords to sound like double-stops and chords and not really fast arpeggios. 

Joe Pass (jazz) switched to free right-hand playing towards the end and I vaguely remember some interview where he said he had wished he had started that sooner.

Also, with the Kotzen videos, I don't see any pick. The resolution isn't great enough to say he doesn't have a thumb-pick, but it looks like he's purely fingerpicking and not hybrid/chicken picking.



NickCormier said:


> even with the upstrokes, although it sounds messy and the upstrokes are abit weak (very little portion of nail attacking it)


Leo Kottke will often play a bass note "downstroke" using his thumb, and then play the "upstroke" with his index finger. He's definitely not metal, but it might be applicable.



NickCormier said:


> Anyone here experiment with this? It'd be awesome if I could get to a point where I would never need to use a pick again.. for any style of music.


That's the direction I've been heading. I'm coming off another on-again-off-again cycle (especially since my youngest has started Classical Guitar) and that's my goal. I'm currently in RP-land myself (RP155), so we'll see where this goes.



Ray


----------



## Adari (Nov 16, 2011)

Here's some stuff you might enjoy:


----------



## starslight (Nov 16, 2011)

I'd recommend looking up some Tuck Andress lessons on youtube. He's pretty far from metal or even rock, but he's got some very aggressive and unorthodox ways of generating rhythm with a fingerstyle attack.


----------



## SirMyghin (Nov 16, 2011)

Not quite but I hybrid pick a tonne. I don't want to give up the pick as it can give greater attack, or attack in line with my fingers depending how I use it. I lose some attack aspects if I chuck the pick. I can use all 3 other fingers and still do triple/quadruple stops and such.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 16, 2011)

Terrible idea for metal.


----------



## brutalwizard (Nov 16, 2011)

i incorporate finger picking in metal to do some fast legato runs ALA shawn lane.

or huge string skips like low a to high e skips or similar.

besides that i don't want my metal pick attack to sound like a floppy wet fish when i CHUGZ.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 16, 2011)

Yeah it works in that context but if you're trem picking at like 220 bpm for 4 minutes it'll sound like ass.


----------



## SirMyghin (Nov 16, 2011)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Yeah it works in that context but if you're trem picking at like 220 bpm for 4 minutes it'll sound like ass.



Bet you can pull it off if you use nails. Also trem picking at 220 = sounds like ass regardless .


----------



## troyguitar (Nov 16, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> So while I was watching some Richie Kotzen videos, I noticed he doesnt use a pick for anything nowadays. It got me thinking, maybe this could work for me too, even for metal? I got used to using my index finger nail for picking, particularily when I pick up a guitar without a pick handy (happens often somehow) so I can speed pick decently, even with the upstrokes, although it sounds messy and the upstrokes are abit weak (very little portion of nail attacking it) - but its enough that I wonder if I should attempt to spend some serious time into this and seeing if it works..



I spent some time working on that exact thing and concluded that I could probably get there with enough practice, but just sort of got lazy and stopped practicing it one day. I plan to get back to it at some point and perhaps rid myself of the pick entirely. I figure it will be especially useful for playing my 9-strings and being able to seamlessly between normal and touchstyle type playing.

I suspect it will take a very long time to really sound as good as a pick though, that's kind of why I gave up for now.


----------



## wannabguitarist (Nov 16, 2011)

More Coheed and Cambria than metal but the vocalist doesn't use a pick


----------



## ElRay (Nov 17, 2011)

Anybody try aLaska Piks? They come in both plastic and brass:










{I just realized the finger on the left looks kinda gross}

Ray


----------



## Killer64 (Nov 17, 2011)

Bass- currently trying to learn how to play bass without a pick
Guitar- the day i learn to play the craziest shit known to man on guitar without a pick would be the day i become a god among men... sadly i dont have enough fingers or hands on my human body to pull that off


----------



## Malkav (Nov 17, 2011)

A bit OT but hey...


----------



## Solodini (Nov 17, 2011)

I generally play without a pick. I was learning some tech metal stuff without a pick for a friend's exam. It works best on ERGs so you can, for instance, play low E pedal tones on the low B and accent tones in E and A strings. 

Practising thumb alt picking helps. For sure. I'd say the key is to remove linearity: learn to work out where notes can be played down the neck on another string a IP you can back and forth that way, without trying to cram 2 fingers on one string, i.e. A on the E string, Bb on the A string so you can puck with thumb and finger in each string. I'm not perfect at it yet but I'm on the path. Familiarising yourself where equivalent notes are on the fingerboard helps to facilitate that.


----------



## bhakan (Nov 17, 2011)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/re...dern-8-strings-song-chek-out.html#post2705118
I remember this thread from a while ago. Supposedly the guy only finger picks, and it sounds awesome, never would have guessed.


----------



## Mvotre (Nov 18, 2011)




----------



## AK DRAGON (Nov 18, 2011)

It's more Bluesly but you should check out Mark Knopfler

http://youtu.be/9XVVZPefbR4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XVVZPefbR4


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 19, 2011)

Mvotre said:


>




interesting. Thats kinda the like classical "picato" type technique isnt it? bend at your middle knuckle..

playing chords wouldnt work though with that (chords with alternate picking at faster speeds, extended powerchords and etc)


----------



## Bloody_Inferno (Nov 19, 2011)

Jeff Beck tends to avoid using a pick most of the time. 



I was gonna say he ditched the pick altogether but...


----------



## SirMyghin (Nov 19, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> playing chords wouldnt work though with that (chords with alternate picking at faster speeds, extended powerchords and etc)



I am sure you could find a way to pull it off. If you wanted to use the generic approach, you would be using a pick without question . It is time to do some real thinking about what you are asking and what you actually want to achieve, opposed to "it would be nice if I could drop my pick but not alter the playing in any way". That is just not realistic.


----------



## troyguitar (Nov 19, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> interesting. Thats kinda the like classical "picato" type technique isnt it? bend at your middle knuckle..
> 
> playing chords wouldnt work though with that (chords with alternate picking at faster speeds, extended powerchords and etc)



That technique also doesn't seem to allow for much if any right hand muting, look at the big rag he has muting his strings...

I still think the index-finger-as-pick method is going to be the best way to imitate a pick.


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 19, 2011)

Yea, me too. I've been practicing it so far this week and it works pretty damn well.. I could probably get by with it but it does suffer badly when doing upstrokes on chords (well, fast chugga powerchords and stuff, not that I do that often but if im gonna drop the pick 100%, need to)

Think im gonna spend afew more weeks on it, and if that doesnt improve I'll go back to thumbpick


----------



## Alberto7 (Nov 19, 2011)

That's actually something I'd love to achieve. I'm sure that playing metal without a pick whatsoever is possibly not going to happen. I started using thumbpicks, but I didn't like how they felt. Then I made my own thumbpick, which was more flexible and actually allowed me to do pinch harmonics and everything. But it was too loose if I wanted to accentuate bass notes, and it slipped out of my finger. I'm still waiting for Chris Broderick to release his thumbpick thing he designed, but he doesn't seem to be doing so any time soon.

For now, I stick to jazz and classical guitar to play with my fingers exclusively.


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 19, 2011)

Yea thats my main problem with thumb picks.. I did some extensive shaving with sandpaper to get them how I want, but my problem is finding thumbpicks made of good material. Right now I only have two that are made with some annoying plastic (dunlop and some other one) and its tone is terrible compared to a good pick. I also got some bumblebee ones but they too were made with cheap plastic, otherwise they were good. I superglued a Jazz III to the bumblebee thumb attachment but it was just too awkward.

So if I could find one of the normal ones in a good material, sand it down it may be ok.. but then you have the issue of having a pick that is so specialized that you can only order them (bought every TP at my local stores, none are great) and if you lose it, thats not fun.

Can't lose your own fingers.. thats a big plus if I could get only fingers to work for every situation.


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 20, 2011)

Have you tried metal thumb picks/finger picks? They've been on my list for a while but I haven't played in ages so the whole "Can pick, tap, pluck without dropping mah pick" approach is obviously on hold


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 20, 2011)

id never use finger picks.. just dont see a point personally. I understand if you want to get that extra bright plucky banjo sound, but no thanks for me

metal as a pick material has never worked for me in the past, so I have my doubts metal thumbpick would work either..


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 21, 2011)

If you don't immediately connect with metal then I'd also express doubts as to it's usefulness - just wanted to make the suggestion  I've seen a few thumbpicks that have plastic plectra attached to a metal frame and did consider using one of those for a while but my gut instinct is that the plastic itself will be substandard as you noted earlier.

Sorry mate, out of ideas for now ^^


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 21, 2011)

Yea.. trying all these thumbpick materials and getting such a bad tone from them really makes me question almost all picks.. The only pick material I ever found myself finding acceptable is the old red Jazz III's.. hmm

I gotta try one of those super expensive red bear picks. lol JJ said he didnt dig them, but he apparently wears thru picks like crazy.. I dont mind worn picks as long as they aren't completely dull


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 21, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Yea.. trying all these thumbpick materials and getting such a bad tone from them really makes me question almost all picks.. The only pick material I ever found myself finding acceptable is the old red Jazz III's.. hmm
> 
> I gotta try one of those super expensive red bear picks. lol JJ said he didnt dig them, but he apparently wears thru picks like crazy.. I dont mind worn picks as long as they aren't completely dull



I've owned 3 of them - one of which was a "Tuff Tone" and not the Tortis material but I had a Big and Lil Jazzer (read Jazz III XL and regular sizes).

I didn't find them wearing down too quickly as I suppose my picking technique is on the light side......tonally they were very rounded and warm, loved the material for it's non-slip tendancies coupled with some holes through the middle but I gave two away (too small) and snapped my Big Jazzer in half whilst gently flexing it as a comparison against other picks to determine rigidity.

Haven't bothered buying another as quite honestly I'd have to reconsider my earlier stance that they are worth the money given the snapping incident. Was tempted with a thumb pick for a while but again, never got around to it....

YMMV


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 21, 2011)

Oh wow they actually have thumb pick ones?? damn.. thats tempting.

$35 for one though, ouch. I may try them in afew months, if I feel like the search needs to continue on thumbpicks / I can't get fingers only to work

Whats the word on the tuff-tone ones? sound good?


----------



## Mvotre (Nov 21, 2011)

reading this im trying AGAIN to play just with fingers. No nails also. Sounds damn nice in some mild distorted tone. 



love this guy playing 

i made a really long search for the right pick. What worked nice for me was v-picks, but the never-slip-high-durability it's a joke. They slip a lot, and after some hours get matte on the tip and start dragging on the strings. Bare fingers for me.


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 21, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Oh wow they actually have thumb pick ones?? damn.. thats tempting.
> 
> $35 for one though, ouch. I may try them in afew months, if I feel like the search needs to continue on thumbpicks / I can't get fingers only to work
> 
> Whats the word on the tuff-tone ones? sound good?



Yeah fine..... although for the price difference they're not a million miles from a regular Jazz III style. In fact I was hard pressed to determine which was which when I attempted to be subjective and gave them both to a friend to play without telling me which he had chosen. 

 They did feel better as the grip was more positive in my sweaty mits but tonally? Whilst the tortis were noticeable, the tuff-tone weren't anything like as distinct.


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 21, 2011)

By saying the tortis was noticable and the tuff-tone wasn't anything distinct; do you mean that in a good way for the tuff-tone or the tortis?

I actually find the red Jazz III's to be the best sounding pick I've used so far; so if I could get a thumbpick similar to that, I'd be for the most part happy.. (bumblebee picks are same size as jazz III's, but made with cheap plastic still) - Which if the Tuff-tone can do, I dont mind the $20 for them... but $35 for the turtle shell ones is a lot, so unless you meant "noticable" as in noticably better, then I may skip out on those..

In the end thouh, i'll probably end up ordering one of each thumbpick, and maybe 1-2 of the flatpicks too. Im skeptical and the price is high, but once I get some good money flow I guess finding the "right" pick is better than dealing with cheap shitty picks. Just hope I never lose a $35 pick lol that'd blow hard.

---

As far as the fingers only thing; I think I came to a conclusion that fingers only works great for almost everything except fast rhythm chordal stuff which requires alternate picking patterns, like say an Iron Maiden gallop rhythm or even Metallica.. Its possible but the upstroke sounds so dead in comparison, its hard to get consistency. For any solo work or any other style, fingers only is working fine.. But in the end, I think a thumbpick is the best compromise if you want the versatility to do literally everything. Gonna practice both ways, but I'll stick to thumbpicks mainly. I do know that if I can find a thumbpick that sounds better, ill be dropping flat picks completely. I'll Have about 50 Jazz III's to sell lol


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 21, 2011)

Good for the Tortis, bad for the TT - it simply wasn't worth the extra as grip aside there wasn't a discernible difference  In terms of value then hand on heart I have to say that they are good....but not $35 good and having one break on me sucked massively 

It will be interesting to see what you decide in the end.


----------



## SirMyghin (Nov 21, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> By saying the tortis was noticable and the tuff-tone wasn't anything distinct; do you mean that in a good way for the tuff-tone or the tortis?
> 
> I actually find the red Jazz III's to be the best sounding pick I've used so far; so if I could get a thumbpick similar to that, I'd be for the most part happy.. (bumblebee picks are same size as jazz III's, but made with cheap plastic still) - Which if the Tuff-tone can do, I dont mind the $20 for them... but $35 for the turtle shell ones is a lot, so unless you meant "noticable" as in noticably better, then I may skip out on those..
> 
> ...



Have you ever tried Stone picks Nick? If you fashioned some variety of mount (or Brokerick finally released his pick clip ), you would have something permanent. 

This woman used to make stone picks, eBay My World - painter-arps , don't see any there now but can't hurt to ask. She made them to spec too, desired shape, thickness, etc (can't get much thinner than 1-1.5mm on stone, keep in mind. I think getting her to make 2 picks only cost around 20$. It was not the 40$ per pick you usually see, that is certain.

Hell, maybe you could convince her to make you a stone thumbpick, admittedly that would be tricky for a good fit though, you might need to add a bit of liner yourself or get used to it tight.


----------



## ElRay (Nov 22, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Its possible but the upstroke sounds so dead in comparison, its hard to get consistency.


Did you give the Leo Kottke down with the thumb, up with the index on the same sting a try?

Ray


----------



## SnowfaLL (Nov 22, 2011)

ElRay said:


> Did you give the Leo Kottke down with the thumb, up with the index on the same sting a try?
> 
> Ray



since you have to hit two strings or more in a row, doesnt sound possible with that.


----------

