# Playing over changes.. Cant seem to be able to do it...



## 777 (Mar 14, 2010)

So in college i play jazz tunes everyday, aswell as some other genres which are also solo'd over in a jazz context. Thing is tho, i just cant seem to be able to play over the changes that are coming at me.

In my 1 on 1 guitar lesson we were given a few pages of II-V-I licks to learn in a few positions, but never really told WHY they work. Ive tried to come up with some riffs to play over Major7/Min7/7/m7(b5) etc but they always seem to be so lacking

Where do I start with this? Guide tones? Arpeggios? etc.

Im getting my head around all the scale positions alot better nowadays but i seem to always end up playing so linearly and not highlighting all the changes.

Any help would be amazing be it youtube videos/long responses to this thread or even short ones.

Thanks in advance guys


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 14, 2010)

I find thats the biggest issue with jazz teachers.. My school was "contemporary" but the main teacher was jazz, and afew of my guitar teachers were 100% jazz. Basically, they give you the basic functions of theory which everyone should know, then say "just improvise".. And expect people to understand.. Its unfortunate when you ask a teacher about something specific they are like "Eh do what you want, nothing is wrong and nothing is right, its jazz" type of deal.

Only advice I can give you is Work on making your improvising melodic rather than following any set "rules" like arpeggios/etc.. Biggest thing that took my improvising to another level (not that its very high anyways) is being able to sing in my head or very low voice, and follow it exactly with my guitar lines.. Because our head/voice is already making the connections our fingers cant.. You can know a standard's chord progression and you can hum out something to follow through it no problem (esp if its little alterations of the main melody, which is a good place to start) and its much easier because our brain already has the connections worked out that your fingers doesnt..

So once you can build an almost-instant link between your brain and your fingers.. You can play exactly what your head is hearing for melody, rather than relying on "knowing every scale/arpeggio/etc" on the guitar.. Which of course is the ultimate goal but its hard to do when you are just starting out.. 

Besides, Melody is key. Its better to hear someone who makes a melody than someone who just goes thru scale runs and arpeggios all day.


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## 777 (Mar 14, 2010)

Thanks Nick ^_^

Also I just gave you your 2nd bar of rep :3

Gratz!


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 14, 2010)

No problem. I know how annoying/hard playing over changes can be.. I still cant do it really well, but granted I took about a year off guitar after I finished college because I was burnt out on it.. Mainly due to being around some insanely 19 year old talented guys who could play over changes like it was nothing.. It is kinda discouraging lol.

But back to the grind now! Its a long process but as long as you put your daily hours in, should eventually start to show.

Like I said, the ultimate technical goal is to be able to process all the scales/arpeggios of the changes in your head as they go by, so you can let your fingers just go on auto-pilot, but in terms of actual music, you want to make melody. So concentrate on that first and foremost in an actual live setting =]


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 14, 2010)

It's hard for me to listen to changes and improvise at the same time, so I know where you're coming from. Thanks, Nick, for your input.


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 14, 2010)

Oh another thing that really helps.. This program called "Guitar Scale Methods".. Its basically a lesson plan, but it has a thing where it plays essentially whatever chord progression you type in, in different styles (jazz/bossa nova/etc) and it shows you the fretboard/scale while it goes thru the changes.. So you can see how your mind SHOULD be processing the changes in real time, and know what to strive towards.

Download the free trial, or get it. Just sit there for hours and play along to it, its quite amazing to see how easy improvising over changes can be when you can see all the notes for every passing chord/scale infront of you.. The hard part is weeming yourself off it, and memorizing the whole fretboard.. But least this gets you started in understanding how top-notch improvisers see the fretboard.

Guitar Scales Method


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## Keytarist (Mar 15, 2010)

NickCormier covered it very well. I want to add just an exercise. It helps you in visualizing the fretboard, it doesn't sound as a solo actually but after you master it, it lets you play over changes more easily.
It consists in playing the arpeggios of the chord progression only with root, third, fifth and seventh (no chord extensions - for the moment). Choose a fingering position and then choose a group of strings; three, four or all strings. Arpeggiate the chord changes using only the notes between the group of strings and without going outside of the fingering position. Try to connect the arpeggios using common notes or at least using the most closest notes. Finally, complete all the fretboard through all the positions. You can do the same exercise with scales but it is difficult, so first start with arpeggios.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 15, 2010)

Cheers for making this thread, I was just about to ask a similar question


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 16, 2010)

if you want a good exercise.. Do your arpeggios cycling thru the circle of 5ths.. That really covers the fretboard and as long as you focus to what key you are in, maybe even say the note names as you play them.. A month of that, the fretboard will be easy to visualize.


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## 777 (Mar 16, 2010)

Thanks so much for all the advice guys!



NickCormier said:


> if you want a good exercise.. Do your arpeggios cycling thru the circle of 5ths.. That really covers the fretboard and as long as you focus to what key you are in, maybe even say the note names as you play them.. A month of that, the fretboard will be easy to visualize.



Do this in all 7 positions for arps?

Like you COULD do all keys in one position like C for example starting on 3rd fret A then F starting on fret 1 E then Bb fret 1 A etc?


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 16, 2010)

Depends on what arpeggio shape you need to work on.. But yeh, if you wanna start on the first fret, do it all in C up to like the ~15-17th fret.. then switch your key and start back at the first fret.

I know its hard starting with such a huge task, so if you wanna do just afew arpeggio shapes to start (the main one and its first inversion say) and cycle thru, then add more to it later. 

I havent practiced anything that ambitious for awhile because Im in a serious technique-readjusting phase, but last time I was doing it was the arpeggios on the low E string, starting with the root arpeggio, then next shape starts with 3rd, next with 5th, next with 7th, then back to root of the next key. 

Even take a chord progression/changes you are having trouble with, slow it down to a metronome (make sure its 4/4 or an even beat) and just play the arpeggios of those chords to the changes, really slow at first and then speed it up some.. Then when you actually improvise over the changes in real time, you can break up some of those arpeggios and throw them in if you get lost in improvising.


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## Charles (Mar 16, 2010)

Props for making this thread as well, I've started to really look into playing over the chord as opposed to being a rock guy and just wailing in the scale/key, hahaha. It's painful, but rewarding, as your improvisation sounds more planned.

I'm not really good at this kind of thing, but if I can offer any kind of limited guidance at all it's that slowing down the tune monstrously helps. It takes your mind off of "keeping up" with the changes and instead lets you think about hitting chord tones as they pass at a more manageable rate.

To use a terrible, terrible analogy, it's like if you're at one of those sushi places with the conveyor belt. If the belt is zipping around at light speed (which I've never seen happen, but I digress), you're more inclined to sort of grab whatever's there because you're hungry and want to eat something. If the belt is moving really slowly, you have a better chance to see whatever it is that you're going to eat, maybe notice the dead fly in it (or get really impatient waiting for it), but my lame analogy stands.


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## AvantGuardian (Mar 17, 2010)

Good advice in this thread so far. I'll add just a bit from my experience playing in jazz ensembles. Like a lot of guys here, I'd say I'm primarily a rock guy that had to learn to play in a jazz group for college. I'm no expert, but I'm comfortable enough improvising over most jazz charts, especially if I've had a chance to look the chart over a bit ahead of time.

Here's what I look for in a chart - find the ii-V-Is and establish where the key changes. Most standards aren't TOO crazy in the key changes - maybe you'll get four bars before a key change. Then I tend to mark on the chart where the key changes happen. For example, if I see:

|| Fm7 | Bbm7 | Eb7 | Abmaj7 |
| Dbmaj7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | Am7||

I'm thinking four bars of Ab Major (its a vi-ii-V-I for the first four bars) then four bars of C Major (ii-V-I-vi). If you have some fancy ii-V-I licks, you can use them, but you don't have to. Just using the scales and arpeggios in those keys will get you through changes like that. Coming up with cool patterns/sequences to play through the scales and arps will get you far and often sound pretty cool. You can also integrate notes from the melody, which guarantees you "correct" notes and also can sound really nice. I tend to draw on the melody and arps of the chords a lot when the changes are really fast or the key is kind of nebulous.

Anyway, good luck man. Learning jazz from a rock background is tough. I'm pretty much a hack of a jazz player myself, but I can at least fake out a good number of people with the techniques I listed above.


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## dnoel86 (Mar 23, 2010)

NickCormier said:


> I took about a year off guitar after I finished college because I was burnt out on it.. Mainly due to being around some insanely 19 year old talented guys who could play over changes like it was nothing.. It is kinda discouraging lol.



Totally agree with you, man. I'm 23 and just starting to learn theory at school and all these kids are shredding circles around my ass.


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 23, 2010)

dnoel86 said:


> Totally agree with you, man. I'm 23 and just starting to learn theory at school and all these kids are shredding circles around my ass.



yea. I have an insane ear and can figure out anything instantly and my sight reading is pretty good, but my actual guitar skills are pretty sub-par. I just dont know if guitar is "for me".. I love bass, guitar and saxophone all almost equal, but I have my dislikes for all 3.. I think guitar is just so hard to get to that level I want to eventually be at, its discouraging when I know a year of playing bass and I feel confident enough to almost be put in any situation, but 5 years of guitar and I still feel like crap =[

Its a hard decision. I envy those people who know guitar is the only instrument for them. Im a melody person by nature, so in that regard, Sax should be what I play.. but I love the versatility of guitar, being able to do everything, where Sax basically you need a band, cant play sax alone lol


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## dnoel86 (Mar 23, 2010)

I also used to play sax as well

I'm coming up on 5 years of playing guitar now too, but I basically just played with tabs and had no idea what I was doing. This is a super helpful thread dude, I'm gonna rep you for it too.

To the OP, don't get discouraged. There's tons of people in your position. It's a tough hump to get over, but it'll be totally worth it. My teacher is a jazz guy, and as much as it frustrates me that he makes me figure out how the relations between everything work on my own, I know it's for my own good because it's all applicable down the road.


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## OwainXerath (Mar 23, 2010)

There's a million ways to approach this... Basically, I'm giving webcam lessons (not to oversell it) and I'm pretty comfortable playing over changes. The oft. over-cited YYZ video  has a solo (in the 2nd section) that is "non-diatonic" and it's a bitch to play over, but break it down and it's fairly simple. I can show you in an easy to understand way. Hit me up [email protected]


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## OwainXerath (Mar 23, 2010)

Also, first section, 2:37 to 2:42 has a lick that compliments the backing. Although it's all "technically" B phrygian dominant, playing the changes outlines the underlying chords. It's 2 different chords/keys. Ya dig?


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 23, 2010)

isnt YYZ just a simple 2 chord progression pretty much? B maj to C maj? Really more of a modal thing.

Either way man, I watched pieces of that video and saw nothing about improvising over changes, it just looked like random pictures of bands with you saying "they love me" on it, and playing over to what seems to be a metal cover of YYZ.. Not to discredit you, I just dont see how that really relates.

I think when people want to learn to play over changes, they mean Jazz standard type stuff, stuff where the whole song IS improvising, after a head. The ability to get into a band situation where someone hands you out a new song on the spot, you being able to sightread and comp to it, then improvise over it, is the goal for aspiring Jazz players to strive at.

Im pretty positive the original poster was also talking about jazz, and phrasing in Jazz is very very different from rock (not to mention what I said above, complex changes over 1-2 modal chords repeating) and most jazz guys will laugh at you if you do some kind of shredding or pure-pentatonic solo like rock/metal guys do. Trust me, ive been there lol.


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## OwainXerath (Mar 24, 2010)

NickCormier said:


> isnt YYZ just a simple 2 chord progression pretty much? B maj to C maj? Really more of a modal thing.
> 
> Either way man, I watched pieces of that video and saw nothing about improvising over changes, it just looked like random pictures of bands with you saying "they love me" on it, and playing over to what seems to be a metal cover of YYZ.. Not to discredit you, I just dont see how that really relates.
> 
> ...



The 2nd half is *tries to remember* Am Gadd9/A D/A F/A All based in A, but still non-diatonic.

Believe it or not I do play a lot of Jazz on the side. I know the YYZ thing isn't the most technical of chord changes, just illustrating that I think I can definitely help.

And yes, I might have been massively drunk when I posted that last night, and yes, I might have been tooting my own horn a little,  I shuddup now


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## Stan P (Mar 24, 2010)

in addition to said above ... there is a Jango methid - that is - play all the chords in the progression ... start adding notes half step below / above each note in the chord - depending on the context - you will get it once you try ... for example if the chord is Am - so try playing Ab -A - B - C - Eb - E etc... let me know if you have any more specific questions once you try.

Place to go from there - apply same method for chord substitutes - you will have enough fun for life


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## Daggorath (Mar 27, 2010)

Learn to comp. I can't profess to being an expert at jazz by any means, but to understand the harmonic concepts surrounding playing over changes you must understand substitutions and comping and the likes.


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## Stan P (Mar 31, 2010)

NickCormier said:


> yea. I have an insane ear and can figure out anything instantly and my sight reading is pretty good, but my actual guitar skills are pretty sub-par. I just dont know if guitar is "for me".. I love bass, guitar and saxophone all almost equal, but I have my dislikes for all 3.. I think guitar is just so hard to get to that level I want to eventually be at, its discouraging when I know a year of playing bass and I feel confident enough to almost be put in any situation, but 5 years of guitar and I still feel like crap =[
> 
> Its a hard decision. I envy those people who know guitar is the only instrument for them. Im a melody person by nature, so in that regard, Sax should be what I play.. but I love the versatility of guitar, being able to do everything, where Sax basically you need a band, cant play sax alone lol



did you ever consider a 5 string electric cello?


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## Stan P (Mar 31, 2010)

there is also a Pat Martino method of finding a sequence of minor arpegios that works over your progression


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 31, 2010)

Stan P said:


> did you ever consider a 5 string electric cello?



I have.. but they are still quite large to transport (not as large as normal cellos though) but eh, Guitar and Alto sax I think is what im sticking with.


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## freepower (Apr 4, 2010)

Just want to point out that imo the rhythmic element is often neglected - making sure you're landing on a chord tone on the chord change, every time.

Try this -

http://www.aebersold.com/FQ/09_tips_for_new_tunes.pdf

And take it down really simple. Just Am7 - E7b9 vamp and nail that, then move on.


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## Jtizzle (Apr 22, 2010)

Some people get these things better than others. I personally find it easy to get through the changes, and it all comes through practice. What college do you go to? Most, if not all, universities offer a set of Improv classes. I took it this semester, and let me tell you, it's a BITCH, but I learned so much from it. My teacher gives me these sets of licks to use and we always analyze them, as in what chord tone it starts, where it ends, how it gets from point A to point B, etc...
If you wanna get good at getting through changes, make yourself a play along to, say, a blues and a ii-V-I in common keys (C, Bb, F, etc) or as many keys as you can go through. Eventually you wanna get through all, but practice the following things: Scales relative to the chord (I = Maj, ii = dorian, etc), arpeggios (start with triad arpeggios if you're not familiar with some things, then add the 7, and then add extensions), learning your guide tones to all chords in all keys. You should start in first position, doing the long forms of all these (ascending starting on the lowest chord tone and descending starting on the highest chord tone) and then when you find all the movable shapes, apply them in different positions. You'll learn your neck really fast this way.
I want to emphasize though, and someone said this earlier, running through scales and arpeggios is not going to make you solo like the greats. Every solo has to relate to the melody, because a solo is pretty much an extension to it, and every great solo has that feel of saying something that the melody doesn't. So every solo you take, don't just do scale runs and stuff like that, it just gets annoying. Start slow, maybe even with a paraphrase of the melody, then when you get to that high climax point of your solo (which should be pretty close to the end of it) you can do a couple of fast runs, but keep the melodic element in it. 
Some good tunes to try working on these things are Mr. PC, Now's The Time, Freddie Freeloader (those 3 are blues), Wave (a really nice bossa, has a few modulations and is pretty much all in ii-V-I), ANYTHING in rhythm changes (I would do I've got rhythm just for the sake of staying on it, Scrapple From The Apple has a cool progression in the A section and the B section is rhythm changes bridge). If you really wanna challenge yourself, try Stella By Starlight, that song has pretty much every jazz element you will ever have to use.


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## 777 (Apr 23, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> Learn to comp. I can't profess to being an expert at jazz by any means, but to understand the harmonic concepts surrounding playing over changes you must understand substitutions and comping and the likes.



Ive gotten pretty alright at comping over the last year, its just the real time relation to scales that I have trouble with.

Also the OP is about jazz, Im doing a degree in Jazz performance


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