# The Lute - luth - luthier



## hufschmid

Luthier, originally this name was given to the lute maker - luth in french....

Many guitar makers in french countries dont like to have people call them ''luthiers'' because of this historical reason but prefer to be named ''guitarier''

Of course of our days its a more general name given to makers of string stroked instruments...

I really want to get started playing this incredible instrument, so much different thypes..

This is actually what started the extended rage instrument history...

The building is a true miracle, the sound is incredible and gives a real athmosphere... 

Anyway, here are a few cool videos I found on internet which explain a little better about this incredible instrument, the ancestor of the guitar...

First video is more of a technical explication about what is going on on the instrument...
















Now check this out!

http://www.creazen.net/au-fil-du-son.html


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## TimSE

so cool 

the attention to detail is unreal! so beautifully made!

why is he playing with fire in the last pic?


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## hufschmid

Installing the gut frets...

Check out the video you can see him do so...


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## Mattmc74

Very cool!


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## phaeded0ut

Whoops, beat me to it, Patrick! I love that the particular one (last picture) has wooden frets on the body. One thing I'll say quickly concerning gut vs. nylon is that gut (I've used cat and deer) strings are that for a short time, they really sound awesome, but with temperature/humidity changes they go out of tune ludicrously quickly. 

I'd recommend going with nylon strings (I know, I know, it's not historical, but it is practical).

Also, for giving it a go, take your favorite nylon strung guitar, and tune the 'g' string down a half-step to 'f#' and you'll be in a lute's standard tuning (minus the low E). They are pricey, so head's up.

If you're looking to go fretless, check out an Oud:
Najarian Music - oud (ud)(lute) builders since 1975 (If my memory servers, this is the same group that David Torn used for their electric ouds. If not, I dothly apologize!)

For folks in the Minnesota (USA) area, here's a local luthier: Lute page

Here's one of many more out of England:
lutemaker.com

Lute makers | Guitar Makers | Vihuelas Baroque Guitars Archlutes Chitarroni Theorbos Orpharions Lutemakers bandoras, citterns

Gallery of lutes and guitars (Check out the parchment tiered rosettas)

Miss my 10 and 1/2 course... sniff...


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## hufschmid

I want this one, I would trade anytime for one of those babies


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## phaeded0ut

Have to admit that I'm partial to this one with a few extras like the "Shaded English Yew" back... Frei model lute Very tasty!!!

These were rather tasty, too:
From Steve Barber and Sandi Harris ( Lute makers | Guitar Makers | Vihuelas Baroque Guitars Archlutes Chitarroni Theorbos Orpharions Lutemakers bandoras, citterns )









From Daniel Larson ( http://www.daniellarson.com ):














I just love the ribs on this one.

If you get the chance, take a peak through the manufacturing section on Stephen Barber and Sandi Harris' site, I'd be interested to see/read how many folks use the older glues, varnishes, etc. , ... No ego involved, really...


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## hufschmid

Ervin Somogyi is the best ship carver in the world, check out this rosette he crafted on one of his lutes...

He is also a lute maker 

This is sick!


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## phaeded0ut

Unbelievable! Calling his work gorgeous doesn't do it justice. Love it when you get those multi-depth curves in the carving work for these rosettes, even without the parchment or other fiddly-bits. Didn't Ervin Somogyi make a recreation lute wherein the rosetta was a round enclosure surrounding a wall perspective and ivy clinging to it? The "ivy" was then continued as very intricate inlay work from the rosetta. 

If you can get the chance, look at the way the ribs are done inside the body of a lute. Again, this skill-set is more akin to a ship wright (ship-builder) than a guitar-builder. I've not had a real chance to do some in-depth hunting for such pictures, and I'd be amazed if there wasn't sets of them posted somewhere. I know that there have been a book or two on the subject, especially in talking about the evolution of both wooden ships and lutes. 

Granted, Patrick is showing us the above $9000.00 per instrument luthiers and I'm showing the more "economy" crowd (or trying to). LOL!


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## hufschmid

If you feel like spending some money you can always buy one of his handmade boxes 











> Intertwined animals were often part of Celtic ornamentation. These interlacing reptiles are from the Book of Kells, where the original is just over 1/2" in diameter. Here, set into bookmatched Sitka spruce, the piece is made up of some 900 cut lines, each requiring up to l5 cutting strokes. Each half of this panel has 275 annular grain lines, which tells us that this slice of wood lived forty years before Mozart was born.


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## phaeded0ut

Breath-taking work. One final thing on the luthiers who use older glues and finishes, is the smell is totally different, too. Really love what he did on the middle box.


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## hufschmid

Just bumped into this website EMS? budget lutes + building kits



EMS 8 Course Renaissance Lute at the Early Music Shop


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## phaeded0ut

hufschmid said:


> Just bumped into this website EMS? budget lutes + building kits
> 
> 
> 
> EMS 8 Course Renaissance Lute at the Early Music Shop



That's a pretty decent pricetag, it's about $936.47 + Shipping and Handling. It may be a student instrument, but that's not a bad way to start, and considering that you're more into the Medieval European and early Renaissance European music this is a damn near perfect fit for you, too. Not sure of what they're using for the gnarled wood, but the use of rosewood is a major plus.


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## Apophis

those instruments are so AWESOME


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## hufschmid

Apophis said:


> those instruments are so AWESOME



Imagine a solid body electric version......

That would be totally innovative and sick


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## Fler

These old instruments astound me. I spent hours yesterday in the Auckland War Memorial Museum staring at the old Lutes, Archlute (which they labelled a Theorbo inaccurately), Violins, and all sorts of things. A 7+7 string Viola D'Amore had me amazed. Hadn't been in there for years and now I knew what it contained I was shitting bricks at what I was looking at.

I noticed you commented on that Tommie Anderson video (I think?) when I saw it earlier, Patrick. I watch it often, and am pondering how possible it is to transpose the piece for 8 string guitar...fucking love this shit!


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## phaeded0ut

Patrick, 

You read my mind!  Could you imagine if it was beyond a 16 rib instrument with alternating woods? How much time it would take just to get the body to finish up, let alone the neck to body joint (would probably be a bit more modern with a dovetail, I think... Though I think something more akin to a hollowbody electric would really get a bit more out of the manufacturing changes. I see a Gibson ES-175D inspired guitar with 16-strings (dual course 8) and a sharp cutaway... Tiered parchment inside the "f-holes..." TASTY!


Fler,

Shouldn't be that terrible in transposition to an 8-string guitar. If they're using a 5 to 8-course lute, then you'll want to use standard tuning and drop the 'G' string down a half step to '"F#" and you'll be good to go for the majority of music out there. Sometimes the 'E' strings are dropped down a full step to 'D,' again, it isn't too terrible. 

For Theorbo music, you might find that you're having to do a bit more hopping around the fingerboard.


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## hufschmid

I have no idea about what your talking when you talk about music theory 

But I personally dont like multiple ribbs, a nice traditional design which has flamed maple and ebony is really gorgeous.

It must be a real crazy job to get perfect joints.

I'm lucky to live next to one of the very best lute makers in europe, his name is Maurice Ottiger, I been to his place to visit him a few times and when you watch those guys build lutes its an other world 

The bastard lives in a chalet in the mountains and has his workshop in his house which means that because of the dry air in the mountains he has a perfect working climat! I need to place a deshumidifier all day long to control the athmosphere in my house...


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## phaeded0ut

Patrick,

I'm still very amazed that he's not had a web site put up for himself, yet. Pretty sure you've shown me a fan-site. Granted, as it stands, he probably is not remotely hurting for work. Here's a question we've not asked, yet, ... does he teach? Have you ever thought about trying for one of his classes if he does?

I do not disagree at all the work at bending all of the rather thin strips perfectly, let alone being able to take some flex into account is unreal. Then you start getting into the lamination work... 

Have to admit a curiosity of seeing one of these instruments given a slightly more modern twist to it... carbon graphite ribs and internal support structure, phenolic fingerboard, steel strings, etc. , ...  Not sure if alternating between carbon graphite body strips and wood strips would work out, but might be interesting.


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## hufschmid

Ottiger is firmly against internet and will not accept any thype of promotion true internet, he is very conservative and keeps saying that everything you read on internet is crap...

I also invited him to visit my website (yeah cause believe this or not he has an e-mail address and a computer... ) and he spent 2 seconds on it because he thinks its made up and not by me......

I dont know how he gets orders but his been a maker since 30 years now and is making a decent living so I guess he became so popular and has so much reputation that people automatically come to his place..

The first name which comes in the mind of a player when he goes to europe for an expensive high class lute or guitar is Ottiger.... 

Somebody did make up a page about him and he is not even aware about it.....

He also has one of his customers who makes videos with a guitar he purshased...

And no, I dont want to go and take building lessons with him, its a different fields and I'm not a conservative builder so I will never be able to follow rules and copy baroque instrument....


I also contacted this player who never bothered to reply to me 

 conservative world and purists... 

He plays an Ottiger here





There is an Ottiger for sale on internet, owner bought it 7'000CHF - 6'800 USD and wants to hear offers...

His prices are much higher now, I think its around 8'000 USD now for a classical guitar






Also the only pictures you will ever see of an Ottiger is this one here...


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## hufschmid

And here is Maurizio Grandinetti and his Ottiger...


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## phaeded0ut

I really hate to say it, but I completely understand where you're coming from in dealing with folks who are quite closed-minded. Apologies.


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## hufschmid

phaeded0ut said:


> I really hate to say it, but I completely understand where you're coming from in dealing with folks who are quite closed-minded. Apologies.



His loss, not ours... 

I'm glad I love internet because 80% of my orders come from customers I meet on internet


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## phaeded0ut

I dothly concur! Though I don't have any customers. The point I was trying to make previously was that I think it would be an interesting blending of technologies if guitar-builders and luthiers (lute builders) were to take designing/manufacturing methods from each other and incorporate these different methods within their respective designs.


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## hufschmid

Right, that will never happen over here, luthiers are conservative dick heads who keep their little secrets and who dont share...

I'm in conflict with one of them in the same hometown, a violin maker and occasionaly builds acoustic guitars, he says that electric guitars is not luthery and that its construction...

Then when he gets a customer who is interested in ordering an electric guitar he tells him that he is a luthier, not a constructor and sends him to an other idiot in geneva, but not too me


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## hufschmid

Forgot to link up his page...

Maurice Ottiger


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## Fler

Ah the wonderful world of classical snobbery =P

That lutesandguitars.co.uk site has kept me well entertained. Some seriously beautiful instruments there, and it seems like the people who build them are rather decent.


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## phaeded0ut

Sorry to read about that, Patrick. I hate to say it, but it's one of those "it depends on how it is suggested, too" issues. Stephen and Sandi might be a better choice as it seems as though they're a little more open, at least they've a web site and don't think of the Internet as being nothing but misinformation. Especially if you were ask questions concerning the glues and/or finishes being used.  Since you're not looking to compete with them in the lute market, they might be more generous with their information?

Have to admit that it would be very interesting to get some of the carbon graphite/polycarbonate folks into this discussion, too.


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## hufschmid

pure win


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## MF_Kitten

guy sounds like a closed-minded cunt...

...who happens to make pretty lutes.

it´s like zachary guitars, really. he might be good, but his snobbery and ego is in the way of him understanding his craft. guy is stuck in tradition and what´s "correct".


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## hufschmid

One of them over here builds violins and lutes (an other maker)

He claims that building is directly related to the hands of god guiding the hands of the luthier and that you must change the way you perceive the instrument in order to realise how people in the past thought it was an instrument from the angels... 



Then one day I met him and he told me that using routers to cut wood changed the molecular structure of wood 



Conservative purists actually live on romance, things which have been written by ignorants and people without any experience... And they enjoy this romance because it makes people dream


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## phaeded0ut

Oi yoi yoi yoi!!! I think you had told me about the violin maker, prior... Or I might be melding the two gents together. Either way, a bit spooky that such superstitions are still prevalent in a craft that was frankly quite a bit more science-laden than most for its time. Shame that such shipwrights are a thing of the past...

I'm not sure if its romance anymore, I'm a thinkin' it's the almighty <insert currency here>! Sorry, being a bit cynical.


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## hufschmid

Amazing that such dick heads who say that they dont like machines actually have a website and enjoy new technology?

How fake


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## phaeded0ut

LOLz! on being plastic people! Thanks for the laugh, by the by.

Getting back on topic, I do wonder if the glues, lacquers/finishes that they're using might be beneficial to modern guitars? Just as, modern methods such as fret placement, fret material and non-woods be as equally beneficial to these historic instruments?


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## hufschmid

Hot hide glue to glue a fingerboard on an electric guitar neck? 



No ways.... I think modern luthery would be more benefical for old instruments....

Purists have a lots to learn but refuse to open their eyes....


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## phaeded0ut

Do they use hot hide glue for the lamination work, too? There is the possible longevity issue to be had...

The flip-side, is how long does hot hide glue take to get to a point where things are usable and not quite so readily moved out of place?


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## hufschmid

phaeded0ut said:


> Do they use hot hide glue for the lamination work, too? There is the possible longevity issue to be had...
> 
> The flip-side, is how long does hot hide glue take to get to a point where things are usable and not quite so readily moved out of place?



 they use high tech epoxy created 800 yers ago by graphtech


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## phaeded0ut

Hahahahahhahahahahhahahahahhaahaa! Seriously though, it is a slight thought...


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## hufschmid

So one of the local luthiers (a major cunt) who enjoys giving theory to me and talking about angels helping him in his craft....

Is currently building his very first steel string guitar....

He eventually did show me some pictures today (yeah he's got a digital camera!!!!!!! I thought he hated technology! )

So fasten you seat belts:

He is building a steel string guitar with

- a 2mm thick soundboard, 2 vertical braces and no bridge plate!!! 
- no truss rod, only a simple bar bought in a hardware store will work and he will carve a backbow to help the neck stay straight  
- he told me that the average humidity at his workshop is 70% and that his wood is very dry because its been there for many years  

I think the angels will show him how their hands can help him towards wood cracking 

I wished him good luck, after all he is the master and I have no clue about bulding guitars


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## phaeded0ut

Maybe he'll be raptured with the sound of the cracking wood? Hopefully no one gets nailed with the wooden shrapnel or splinters. Oh man, pardon that really bad pun.


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## Janiator

Huf, ask him if he will do a double-neck lute. Man that would be awesome


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## phaeded0ut

With a multi-tiered peg board on each neck!


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