# NGD: Emperion Norax Content (full review and lots 'o pictures)



## AhsanU (Jul 15, 2010)

*EDIT:

This company fucking blows. They got in way too over their head, and could not deliver what they promised. I retract my original statements in this first post. Skip to page three to hear the bullshit that's going on. They do not want to refund my money, probably because they've spent it already. DO NOT, buy from this company. They are not, nor will they ever be the Agile of the EU, not with this terrible customer service. I'm sorry for saying the nice things I have about this company.*

First off, I'd like to thank Michele from Emperion whom helped me go through this transaction. I had placed an order for the Norax II-7 FR Green Flame and decided to get a refund due to car problems and the guitars not turning out to be what I had expected. With some luck, I was able to pull some cash together to fix my car and keep the guitar.

Now on to the review:

*Looks of the guitar:*
The guitar itself looks great. Once you look at the pictures, you will not deny that the transparent top looks great under the right lighting. It doesn't look absolutely amazing, but it came out far better than I had expected. The headstock looks rather funky (weird shape), but it looks good with the overall shape of the body. Unfortunately, it goes downhill from there. The inlays didn't come out too well. Gold MOP were promised and it definitely was not delivered. Instead, regular MOP with small Jackson-like inlays were given, which is a shame. Another huge let-down was the lack of a true ebony fretboard; this thing has streaks of ebony and is nothing like my USA made Dean's and Jackson. The fretboard also has some gunk/white dots on it that I can't seem to take off. It really makes the guitar look unclean.

*Playability:*
The playability is pretty decent. The neck shape is actually very similar to Agile's Interceptor line of guitars, so it is quite comfortable to play - even while standing up. The upper fret access is an issue that many people are concerned with. To me, it's not that big of a deal - why? Because it's exactly like a Jackson KV2, which is fine in my book. The volume/pickup selector set up is just like my Razorback V's set up, so I'm quite fond of it (it's comfortable to me). The OFR is brand spanking new and feels solid (it's also gold, which is what they promised). One little niggle I'd like to point out is the location of the input jack. It's located on one of the lower horns - which is annoying. When I play wide-stretched licks, I tend to put the lower horn (that the input jack is located on) in between my legs so I have better access; but I can't do it with my current cables because they're not angled - they're straight. So if anything, I'll need to go buy some angled input jacks in order to play comfortably.

*Sound:*
After I got the guitar and snapped some pics, I strummed out a few chords and heard that it was more or less in tune. I plugged it into my Bugera 6262 and was astonished at how terrible it sounded. It sounded muggy, had no clarity, and just awful overall. Since then, I've changed the strings (Ernie Ball 9-46's, .58 low B) and have set the guitar up properly and it sounds pretty good. I really can't complain about the tone I'm getting.

*Craftsmanship:*
Here, unfortunately, the guitar does not do well at all. The Floyd Rose cavity will seriously make you scratch your head (check the pics). The white binding is actually damaged on a few parts, and the frets weren't installed too well. The pickup cavity however, is not as bad as I expected it to be. I did want some pickup rings to come along with it, but it didn't. However, on some of the other guitars that Emperion has produced, you can clearly see the pickup hardware and the actual pickup cavity; fortunately, that's not the case for the guitar I've received. But what baffled me is the way the guitar came to me. It appeared as if someone's been playing the guitar for a few years! There are swirls, dents, scratches, and marks around the entire guitar! Somewhere along this guitar's life, it was mistreated and thrown around like a red-headed step child. I've taken many pictures of the faults. The truss rod cover is also a bit of a minger, it doesn't fit perfectly. However, one nice thing they've done is properly install the Floyd Rose retainer, which is something that most people don't know how to do.

*Accessories and other shit:*
I was lead to believe that this guitar would come with a hard shell case - rest assured, it does not. The guitar was packed as if it were going to be shipped through hell and back; Emperion did very well as far as packaging is concerned. The guitar also came with some weird type of strap lock system that I've never heard of. I'm sure if I did research, I'd find some info on it but I cba. The volume and tone knob feel solid, but it did not come with any Allen keys (luckily, I've got about a billion of 'em!). Setting the guitar up was not a problem, the truss rod is built well, and the Floyd sits perfectly on top.

*Overall impression:*
It's a decent guitar for the amount I paid. I can honestly say I'm satisfied. Many of you would go out of your way to return it and give this relatively new guitar company a shit-storm of hate for not delivering what they promised, but I'm not like that. They've addressed the issues with their guitars, and they are handing out full refunds to whoever wants one.

tl;dr?

Pros:
Good value for money
Looks pretty good
Comfortable

Cons:
Sub-par craftsmanship
Promises not completely fulfilled
Delayed build time

Time for pics! Disclaimer: I am in no way a photographer, so the pictures suck!

First off: the bad:

One of the horns.







The horrid Floyd Rose cavity.






Very clearly not ebony.






Some crap on the fretboard that won't come off.






The truss rod cover not fitting perfectly.






Fret work 











Marks around the body.






ON TO THE GOOD! Enjoy guys.

I wasn't joking about the packing, it was seriously packed well.











Took my nearly 15 minutes to take off the bubble wrapping.











As soon as I saw the body I was impressed and took a shot of it with the flash on.






Then the neck.





























































After cleaning the top off with some Planet Wave stuff.






After the full set-up.






And, a family shot.






Thanks for reading (if you did), and sorry for the poor quality photos again.


----------



## Disco Volante (Jul 15, 2010)

Think you have enough pointy guitars, how many tunings do you play in?


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 15, 2010)

Disco Volante said:


> Think you have enough pointy guitars, how many tunings do you play in?



I'll never have enough pointy guitars! I play in roughly 5 different tunings haha.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 15, 2010)

I am glad you are happy with your guitar! It certainly looks better than the initial green norax someone had a pic of. I got my pickups this week and took them into my guitar tech, so hopefully I'll have something up soon. 
Did they ever explain why they couldnt do the Gold inlays?


----------



## EcoliUVA (Jul 15, 2010)

Nice, thanks for this. I'm currently debating on getting an Emperion myself...

That fingerboard scares me. Pretty picky about them, and that "spot" would really irk me 

If I get one, it'll be an in-stock and I'll demand pictures first.

Still, overall the guitar looks way better than I expected (having been lurking around checking out pics for a while). That flame looks pretty sexy, actually. I remember some horrifying previous pics that obviously stirred up a ruckus on the forums...props for not screwing that up.

Basically all of the flaws except the fingerboard are ones I could live with. I'm not entirely convinced it's not ebony though...certainly not top shelf stuff, but even rail ebony is better than rosewood in my humble opinion.

These guitars seem to be made out of "not dark" ebony as an example of why I'm not convinced yet: Woodo Guitars

Unless of course, it feels and sounds like dyed rosewood, in which case I'd politely tell Emperion to 

Can you comment on that? Looks like one of your Deans and your Jackson (sexy Jackson, by the way!) have ebony boards. Can you get touchy-feely with them and compare? The Emperion board certainly doesn't look like the rosewood boards in your "family". Should be able to tell if it's dyed, right? Never actually seen a dyed rosewood board...so anyone that can comment please do! Given all the forum, picture, and interwebz scouring I've done, I don't think Emperion would outright lie about their fingerboard material. Then again, they didn't deliver 100%...

Additional question: How does the floyd sit compared to your other guitars? Is it comfortable? Plenty of room for adjustment? No issues getting it to your liking?

Additional question #2: Compare the fret size to your Jackson. Me likey heap big jumbos. Looks like they're pretty hefty but I'd rather ask than guess.


----------



## theperfectcell6 (Jul 15, 2010)

Dood I love that Green Flame a lot more than the Green Quilt on my Agile!

Sick guitar!


----------



## Thoma (Jul 15, 2010)

Wow, beautiful guitar all around, also the thing with ebony is the colour varies a lot from different species of wood, but overall very nice would you care to comment about price?


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 15, 2010)

EcoliUVA said:


> Nice, thanks for this. I'm currently debating on getting an Emperion myself...
> 
> That fingerboard scares me. Pretty picky about them, and that "spot" would really irk me
> 
> ...



You should keep in mind that there are many kinds of "ebony" fretboards. In reality, the ebony fretboards I have on my USA made Dean's and Jackson are actually dyed. In fact, many import guitars that have "ebony" fretboards are really just rosewood fretboards that are stained to the point where they're ebony. I'm fairly sure that this is the case for Agile guitars as well. The fretboard on my Emperion is technically ebony; they can say it is because it has streaks of ebony. Dean's VMNT1 import guitars also have streaks of ebony, and as a result - Dean can market them as "ebony fretboard" guitars. The fact that the Emperion doesn't have a true Ebony fretboard really doesn't bother me, I can always call upon a friend who can stain it until it turns extremely dark like on my USA guitars. It's just one additional thing that was promised that didn't come true.

Another thing about fretboards to me is that I personally never really cared for the feel of it. If you closed my eyes, gave me two identical guitars, except one of them had a rosewood fretboard and one had an ebony fretboard, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart. It's just an aesthetic thing to me. I think rosewood looks hideous on many guitars, but on some, it works.

The Floyd sits perfectly. Absolutely no issues regarding the physical Floyd itself, the cavity on the other hand.. well it speaks for itself in the pictures. But I haven't had any issues with restringing, intonating, and adjusting action height with the guitar.

And as far as fret sizes go - I can't really tell you because I don't know myself. I'll play on any fret size, which is why I never look into it. I'm sure if you contacted them they'd be more than happy to tell you.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> You should keep in mind that there are many kinds of "ebony" fretboards. In reality, the ebony fretboards I have on my USA made Dean's and Jackson are actually dyed. In fact, many import guitars that have "ebony" fretboards are really just rosewood fretboards that are stained to the point where they're ebony. I'm fairly sure that this is the case for Agile guitars as well. The fretboard on my Emperion is technically ebony; they can say it is because it has streaks of ebony. Dean's VMNT1 import guitars also have streaks of ebony, and as a result - Dean can market them as "ebony fretboard" guitars. The fact that the Emperion doesn't have a true Ebony fretboard really doesn't bother me, I can always call upon a friend who can stain it until it turns extremely dark like on my USA guitars. It's just one additional thing that was promised that didn't come true.



Ebony is Ebony. The species that is. You can't turn Rosewood (or any wood) "into" Ebony. You can dye a wood to _look_ like Ebony, and that's what most brands do. A Rosewood board with dark streaks isn't part Rosewood and part Ebony.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 15, 2010)

Thoma said:


> Wow, beautiful guitar all around, also the thing with ebony is the colour varies a lot from different species of wood, but overall very nice would you care to comment about price?



It's varied actually. Mainly because of the currency rates fluctuating like crazy.

But I overall paid 626 euros, which is roughly around 800 USD. So it's not bad, really.



theperfectcell6 said:


> Dood I love that Green Flame a lot more than the Green Quilt on my Agile!
> 
> Sick guitar!



Thanks man! I really was impressed by the transparent top. I just wish they had offered it in transparent black! 



MaxOfMetal said:


> Ebony is Ebony. The species that is. You can't turn Rosewood (or any wood) "into" Ebony. You can dye a wood to _look_ like Ebony, and that's what most brands do. A Rosewood board with dark streaks isn't part Rosewood and part Ebony.



Ah yes, that's what I meant. I'm aware you can't really turn rosewood into ebony, just the look of it.

But what would you consider my Emperion?


----------



## skinhead (Jul 15, 2010)

Awesome rig man. Emperion guitar seems to do some good work


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 15, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> But what would you consider my Emperion?



Looks like Ebony (tight grain), though there's a lot of other woods it could be that are similar to Ebony. It also looks like they attempted to dye it, but rushed the job so it didn't hold well. 

Ebony (thanks to it's many different species) isn't a very expensive or hard to get a hold of wood in theory, so it's not out of the question that even cheaper guitars can have some. Just don't expect it to be uniform in color, or to be of a high grade. It's the uniformly black, or highly figured stuff that's rare and pricey. The kinda stuff you find on $3000+ archtops and orchestral instruments.


----------



## Ben.Last (Jul 16, 2010)

To follow up on the ebony talk. A lot of people seem to assume that it's a simple as ebony=black. That's not the case. Ebony is the species, not the color. Most ebony is not as black as what we expect from ebony fretboards. A black dyed ebony (the species) fretboard IS ebony. A black dyed rosewood fretboard IS NOT ebony.

For the record, Agile ebony IS black dyed ebony. Any case of someone getting rosewood instead is a fuck up(something that's not unheard of with Rondo) rather than the norm.


----------



## AeonSolus (Jul 16, 2010)

To add on the ebony note, and to the masses misbelief, ebony isn't generally pitch black, it's most of the times a very dark brown, with lighter brown highlights, like for instance, the ebony on my Blackmachine clone, the darkest shade it has is a dark chocolate brown with lighter highlights.

The guitar is looking great man  Happy NGD


----------



## Fred the Shred (Jul 16, 2010)

Happy NGD, mate! She does look cool indeed. I do have to agree regarding the Floyd back route - it's "original", to say the least...


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 16, 2010)

Somebody has a V fetish.


----------



## SYLrules88 (Jul 16, 2010)

nice pointy collection man! big trivium fan myself. have you heard of sylosis? they're relatively new and i think they only have one album out. you'll either hate them for maybe sounding a bit much like a trivum/killswitch mix or you'll fucking love their sound because they do it really fucking well.

did you request a mix of gold and black hardware or was it not specified upon ordering? the hardware not matching is one thing that bugs me, but you mentioned a few other things that dont bother you so this may just be one of them. but still, see thru green figured top + gold hardware = the sexiest fucking thing ever!!!

after reading through your review, this isnt a brand i would consider buying from yet. not that i want them burned at the stake. but there's still so many other options that i wouldnt have a reason to buy from them.

regardless, i hope you remain happy with this instrument! do you have threads with more pics of the rest of those deans? ive never seen close ups of any of those kick ass finishes. oh and remember to check out Sylosis if you haven't already. rock on!


----------



## Daggorath (Jul 16, 2010)

Not of the quality I was hoping for. It's the details that make or break a guitar. And those Deans are fugly, and overpriced. I dread to think how much you've spent on average guitars.

This is my opinion, if you enjoy them then good for you.


----------



## ShadyDavey (Jul 16, 2010)

Dissapointments aside, if you can live with and and enjoy it then HNGD 

I actually like the green quilt/gold hardware combo and really didn't expect to...


----------



## EcoliUVA (Jul 16, 2010)

Ebony Differences

This link shows differences in Ebony grades from some luthier supply site. Obviously this would be in the lower grade, but is still, I would say, ebony.

If I got a piece like this I believe I would dye it myself. Problem solved, so long as the wood still feels and sounds like ebony!


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 16, 2010)

EcoliUVA said:


> Ebony Differences
> 
> This link shows differences in Ebony grades from some luthier supply site. Obviously this would be in the lower grade, but is still, I would say, ebony.
> 
> If I got a piece like this I believe I would dye it myself. Problem solved, so long as the wood still feels and sounds like ebony!



That actually only covers a couple different species, when in fact there are dozens of woods that guitar makers consider "Ebony".


----------



## Andromalia (Jul 16, 2010)

> They've addressed the issues with their guitars, and they are handing out full refunds to whoever wants one.


They do not. they say they do, yes, but I was struggling to get hold of the remaining 400 they owe me that they say they can't pay at the moment...
I was ok to even allow them to pay in installements, and they fouled up even that and only paid the first one, and had me pay paypal fees to add up to the insult.
End of story: I lost patience, asked my bank for a CC chargeback that they will pay the charge for, got my money in one week, end of story. As far as I'm concerned, they're thieves that take your money, don"t deliver and refuse to give it back using all the excuses they can find. 
I also made a file at the french fraud monitoring office, which was required for the bank to accept to do the chargeback.


----------



## AvantGuardian (Jul 16, 2010)

Thanks for the honest review and the pics. Glad you're happy with it. For $800, part of me thinks its pretty cool to get a guitar with an OFR and Blackouts, but then I see that route on the back and... . If the guitar plays/sounds how you want it to though, that is what's most important. Congrats


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 16, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> Not of the quality I was hoping for. It's the details that make or break a guitar. And those Deans are fugly, and overpriced. I dread to think how much you've spent on average guitars.
> 
> This is my opinion, if you enjoy them then good for you.



Wow, way to randomly criticize his other guitars in his NGD thread.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 16, 2010)

*HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!* I just noticed this abomination!







That's inexcusable. I don't care how much the guitar was, and how nice of a unit that OFR is. I can only imagine how this is going to function (or not function) in the long run.




Hollowway said:


> Wow, way to randomly criticize his other guitars in his NGD thread.


----------



## capoeiraesp (Jul 16, 2010)

Dude what are you doing about the hardshell case? That was part of the deal!
Did they compensate you with free pickup upgrades ?
Tell me you got some kind of compensation.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 16, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> Not of the quality I was hoping for. It's the details that make or break a guitar. And those Deans are fugly, and overpriced. I dread to think how much you've spent on average guitars.
> 
> This is my opinion, if you enjoy them then good for you.



I'm rather confused, you're calling my Dean's "overpriced" when you don't know how much I've paid?


----------



## EcoliUVA (Jul 16, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That actually only covers a couple different species, when in fact there are dozens of woods that guitar makers consider "Ebony".


 
Fair enough, just offering up some visuals to clarify that this could still be ebony. When you put it in quotes, it makes me wonder...bad personal experience with "ebony" somewhere along the line from someone?


That floyd cavity IS pretty disturbing. Have you used it yet? Looks like if you had to do a little opening up yourself there's not much more room under that cover plate...


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 16, 2010)

EcoliUVA said:


> Fair enough, just offering up some visuals to clarify that this could still be ebony. When you put it in quotes, it makes me wonder...bad personal experience with "ebony" somewhere along the line from someone?
> 
> 
> That floyd cavity IS pretty disturbing. Have you used it yet? Looks like if you had to do a little opening up yourself there's not much more room under that cover plate...



I've had several guitars with various types of Ebony, and it really makes a great fretboard wood. I tend to like the figure and hues of Rosewood and Pau Ferro better. I've never really had a bad experience that I can recall. I did have a fretless bass with an Ebony board that cracked something awful, but I chalked that up to the first owner treating it like shit in the super humid weather of South Florida. 

I put the term "Ebony" in quotes, as just because it's a dark wood being used as a guitar's fretboard, and the company providing said guitar calls it "Ebony" doesn't mean it's really a species of Diospyros genus. 

These two statements (from Wiki of course ) summarizes what I'm saying best:



Wiki on Ebony said:


> Ebony is a general name for very dense black wood. In the strict sense it is yielded by several species in the genus Diospyros, but other heavy, black (or dark colored) woods (from completely unrelated trees) are sometimes also called ebony.





Wiki on Ebony said:


> Some species in the genus Diospyros yield so-called striped ebony, with similar physical properties, which is not evenly black, but striped. Most species in the genus do not yield ebony at all, even in those cases where they do yield timber.



To put it simply, not all black wood is Ebony, and not all Ebony is black.


----------



## bklixuz (Jul 16, 2010)

you've got plenty of pointy guitar enough to stab someone! 
enjoy your guitar bro!


----------



## EcoliUVA (Jul 16, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> To put it simply, not all black wood is Ebony, and not all Ebony is black.


 
Touché, good sir! Well said, and point taken. I certainly hope when I order ebony boards, I get them...we have opposite taste in fingerboards


----------



## ridner (Jul 16, 2010)

sucks about the issues, but it does look frickin sweet overall - congrats!


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 16, 2010)

capoeiraesp said:


> Dude what are you doing about the hardshell case? That was part of the deal!
> Did they compensate you with free pickup upgrades ?
> Tell me you got some kind of compensation.



Thing is, I read over the page with the original mock up of this guitar and I guess I read wrong a couple of months ago.

Thanks for the kind words guys. Yes, I do have a pointy and V fetish  I just love the way they look and the upper fret access when playing whilst standing up.



ridner said:


> sucks about the issues, but it does look frickin sweet overall - congrats!




Thanks Rob, you sexy beast <3


----------



## Sebastian (Jul 16, 2010)

Looks really great !  Awesome finish


Can you post some pics of the Jackson ? that graphic is sick


----------



## PirateMetalTroy (Jul 16, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> To put it simply, not all black wood is Ebony, and not all Ebony is black.



All that glitters is not gold...


----------



## walleye (Jul 16, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> And those Deans are fugly, and overpriced. I dread to think how much you've spent on average guitars.
> 
> This is my opinion, if you enjoy them then good for you.



yep. thanks for sharing


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 16, 2010)

Sebastian said:


> Looks really great !  Awesome finish
> 
> 
> Can you post some pics of the Jackson ? that graphic is sick



I don't know if non-registered users can view the Dean forums, but here's a link to the thread:

The Official Dean Guitars Forum - The Best Guitar Forum Anywhere!!!


----------



## Sebastian (Jul 16, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> I don't know if non-registered users can view the Dean forums, but here's a link to the thread:
> 
> The Official Dean Guitars Forum - The Best Guitar Forum Anywhere!!!



non-registered can't ... but I'm a registered user ..so I can view it 


AWESOME Jackson !


----------



## Lasik124 (Jul 16, 2010)

Awesome guitar, and pretty wicked looking collection!


----------



## Randy (Jul 16, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> And those Deans are fugly, and overpriced. I dread to think how much you've spent on average guitars.



You, sir, are an asshole.


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 16, 2010)

To add to the Ebony thing: The best way for me to tell the difference between an Ebony board and a Rosewood board is the feel of the wood itself. Ebony is very hard and dense and feels almost like plastic to me, wheras rosewood is much softer. If you're finger technique isn't great, ebony will result in a ''this plays faster'' type of feel (I know that from experience when I had a Les Paul Lite ;<_< ).


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 16, 2010)

JaeSwift said:


> To add to the Ebony thing: The best way for me to tell the difference between an Ebony board and a Rosewood board is the feel of the wood itself. Ebony is very hard and dense and feels almost like plastic to me, wheras rosewood is much softer. If you're finger technique isn't great, ebony will result in a ''this plays faster'' type of feel (I know that from experience when I had a Les Paul Lite ;<_< ).



To add to this, that doesn't apply on all types of Ebony, and all types of Rosewood. 

Ebony is not impervious to drying out either, so take condition of the wood is just as important to it's tactile feel as it's species. To an extent that is.


----------



## 7slinger (Jul 16, 2010)

ShadyDavey said:


> I actually like the green quilt/gold hardware combo and really didn't expect to...



I dig the "scheme" of the guitar, I like the shade of green, and it looks classy with the gold hardware



AhsanU said:


> But I overall paid 626 euros, which is roughly around 800 USD. So it's not bad, really.



whether a price is "bad" or not is pretty subjective, depending on alot of factors; how much dough you've got, how much debt you've got, previous buying experiences, yadda yadda etc.

my , if I spent 800$ on a guitar that was supposed to be new and showed up with issues, especially issues that made me think the guitar was previously used, I'd be pissed as all hell and feel really ripped off

granted, even if a used guitar shows up but it sounds great plays great looks great and a person is happy with it then so be it. but if I pay for new, I damn well better get new


----------



## Zeromancer (Jul 16, 2010)

It looks nicer than I expected, but as Max said about the trem cavity, it's simply horrid. 

Also I've always wondered why the hell would anyone place the jack in that location on V's?

My brother's RR copy have that and it's the most annoying thing ever. 
Most. Annoying. Thing. Ever.


----------



## Psyy (Jul 16, 2010)

Daggorath said:


> Not of the quality I was hoping for. It's the details that make or break a guitar. And those Deans are fugly, and overpriced. I dread to think how much you've spent on average guitars.
> 
> This is my opinion, if you enjoy them then good for you.




Uncalled for. 

On topic, is it just me, or is the low B super close to the edge of the fretboard? It looks irritatingly unplayable.


----------



## Forced Chaos (Jul 17, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> *HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!* I just noticed this abomination!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Holy hell they didn't bolt the string block up correctly to the bottom of the bridge. They shifted it towards the low E and then hacked the shit out of the route so it would fit like that. OMFG!!!! Whoever put that bridge on should never be allowed to touch another guitar again. Take your bridge off and apart and then align the block correctly and fix your springs and you should be good. You'll still have that horrid route but at least it's on the bottom or you could put the plate back on. I would actually send that fucker back from wherever it came from and either get a replacement or your money back.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 17, 2010)

Forced Chaos said:


> Holy hell they didn't bolt the string block up correctly to the bottom of the bridge. They shifted it towards the low E and then hacked the shit out of the route so it would fit like that. OMFG!!!! Whoever put that bridge on should never be allowed to touch another guitar again. Take your bridge off and apart and then align the block correctly and fix your springs and you should be good. You'll still have that horrid route but at least it's on the bottom or you could put the plate back on. I would actually send that fucker back from wherever it came from and either get a replacement or your money back.



You think that was the cause? I was thinking the entire route on the back of the guitar was off center with the front route, so the spring claw was out of position. But now I think you're right. Except for why the Hell did they take the block off? All the OFRs I've ever bought came fully assembled from the factory. Maybe it's not even a true OFR, but a hybridized OFR/LFR that they put together?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 17, 2010)

Either way it looks like shit. I can only imagine how it functions, especially long term.


----------



## Forced Chaos (Jul 17, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> You think that was the cause? I was thinking the entire route on the back of the guitar was off center with the front route, so the spring claw was out of position. But now I think you're right. Except for why the Hell did they take the block off? All the OFRs I've ever bought came fully assembled from the factory. Maybe it's not even a true OFR, but a hybridized OFR/LFR that they put together?


 
Def man....you can see that the string block is not bolted to the bridge plate correctly and in alignment. I've bought several OFR bridges to swap on other guitars and they are always put together correctly right out of the box normally but who knows what happened here behind the scenes. At least if it's put back together right there won't be any functional issues and it's on the back so who really cares. I just can't imagine that first nobody saw that it was assembled right, second that they installed it that way, and then third fucking hacked around the thing to make it fit that way. That is just way to retarded for me to comprehend.


----------



## CrushingAnvil (Jul 17, 2010)

Despite of that guitar looking fucking fantastic around the front, that trem cavity looks just like the one on my old TTM (which I promptly sold).

If it turns to shit (trem wise) I think that is a mighty shame, that is a fine looking guitar.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 18, 2010)

Forced Chaos said:


> Def man....you can see that the string block is not bolted to the bridge plate correctly and in alignment. I've bought several OFR bridges to swap on other guitars and they are always put together correctly right out of the box normally but who knows what happened here behind the scenes. At least if it's put back together right there won't be any functional issues and it's on the back so who really cares. I just can't imagine that first nobody saw that it was assembled right, second that they installed it that way, and then third fucking hacked around the thing to make it fit that way. That is just way to retarded for me to comprehend.



Yeah, the whole chain of production, QC, etc missed it. That's messed up.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 18, 2010)

At this point, the Floyd cavity is of no concern to me, mainly because I've got a goddamn dead note. 11th fret on the D string = dead. God-fucking-damnit.

Guess I'm taking it to Sam Ash 

I've never had a dead note or any issues like this before (surprisingly, since I've owned many many import guitars), what's the protocol for fixing it? And how hard can I expect Sam Ash to rape my wallet if I do take it there?

Any help is appreciated fellas, thanks


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 18, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> At this point, the Floyd cavity is of no concern to me, mainly because I've got a goddamn dead note. 11th fret on the D string = dead. God-fucking-damnit.
> 
> Guess I'm taking it to Sam Ash
> 
> ...



Have you done a string change since you got it? It's not unusual to have a dead note from old/crappy strings. That usually does the trick for me.
If that doesn't fix it you've got a fret level problem (which, TBH wouldn't surprise me given the other build gaffes we've seen on these). I'm totally guessing, but I think the only solution is to replace that one fret or do a complete fret re-leveling. Neither is going to be hugely expensive, but it is additional expense.

Also, I'd encourage you to take Forced Chaos's advice and reassemble that Floyd. I have to think that over time the fact that it's not centered is going to cause differential force/wear on the bridge studs. I can't know for sure, but OFRs ain't cheap, so better to be safe than sorry.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 18, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> Have you done a string change since you got it? It's not unusual to have a dead note from old/crappy strings. That usually does the trick for me.
> If that doesn't fix it you've got a fret level problem (which, TBH wouldn't surprise me given the other build gaffes we've seen on these). I'm totally guessing, but I think the only solution is to replace that one fret or do a complete fret re-leveling. Neither is going to be hugely expensive, but it is additional expense.
> 
> Also, I'd encourage you to take Forced Chaos's advice and reassemble that Floyd. I have to think that over time the fact that it's not centered is going to cause differential force/wear on the bridge studs. I can't know for sure, but OFRs ain't cheap, so better to be safe than sorry.



As soon as I got the guitar, I changed out the strings to Ernie Ball strings, so it can't be the strings.

And yeah, I'll definitely fix the Floyd myself, I can probably do that. But as far as leveling frets/replacing frets go, I don't have the proper tools nor the knowledge to fix it. I'll take it later this week I suppose. But one gigantic issue - no hardshell case. Meaning, I'm gonna have to see if this thing can fit in any one of my other HSC. Either way, this will be a pain in the ass.


----------



## JacobShredder (Jul 18, 2010)

Despite what other people say, I think your guitars are all very pretty, I have an Import Dean Razorback V, which I actually like.

Your Jackson wins hardcore though.


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 18, 2010)

I hate to be an ass, but you really should have returned that guitar. You're gonna get a lot more headache over it than it's worth


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 18, 2010)

JaeSwift said:


> I hate to be an ass, but you really should have returned that guitar. You're gonna get a lot more headache over it than it's worth



Well, I'm gonna call Sam Ash tomorrow, and if it's gonna cost a pretty penny to fix the fret then I'm just gonna have to return it. I have literally no more money to spend. So we'll see. It's a shame, the guitar is pretty.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 18, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> Well, I'm gonna call Sam Ash tomorrow, and if it's gonna cost a pretty penny to fix the fret then I'm just gonna have to return it. I have literally no more money to spend. So we'll see. It's a shame, the guitar is pretty.



Even if it's only one fret, it's not going to be very cheap. If a fret needs to be replaced, they're going to have to carefully remove the bad fret, install a new one, then crown, dress, and level the new one. It's a lot more involved then it seems. 

Though, when you say "dead fret" do you mean the fret is too low/high, or that when you play the fret the note dies out REALLY soon, and sounds "off"?


----------



## DIOBOLIC5150 (Jul 19, 2010)

Cool looking guitar, for sure. But that trem cavity is complete failure. Does it rub on the body? It looks like it would.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 19, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Even if it's only one fret, it's not going to be very cheap. If a fret needs to be replaced, they're going to have to carefully remove the bad fret, install a new one, then crown, dress, and level the new one. It's a lot more involved then it seems.
> 
> Though, when you say "dead fret" do you mean the fret is too low/high, or that when you play the fret the note dies out REALLY soon, and sounds "off"?



The note dies out. There's nothing wrong with the pitch of the note, but there's severe buzz/clunking as soon as I pick the note and the note dies out very quickly. Pretty sure that's a dead note right? The 11th fret on the other strings are fine, so I'm not too sure what to make of it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 19, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> The note dies out. There's nothing wrong with the pitch of the note, but there's severe buzz/clunking as soon as I pick the note and the note dies out very quickly. Pretty sure that's a dead note right? The 11th fret on the other strings are fine, so I'm not too sure what to make of it.



Sounds like a "dead spot". There aren't any really good ways to fix it unfortunately. Sometimes a full re-fret can help, as does adding and removing mass from the guitar itself. It has to do with the resonance frequencies of the guitar itself. 

This is where skilled builders and high quality materials come into play.


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 19, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sounds like a "dead spot". There aren't any really good ways to fix it unfortunately. Sometimes a full re-fret can help, as does adding and removing mass from the guitar itself. It has to do with the resonance frequencies of the guitar itself.
> 
> This is where skilled builders and high quality materials come into play.



Not to mention high costs 

Really, return it, get a good second hand 7420/7620/Agile/Whatever instead and you will be much happier.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 19, 2010)

JaeSwift said:


> Not to mention high costs
> 
> Really, return it, get a good second hand 7420/7620/Agile/Whatever instead and you will be much happier.



Honestly, if I was you [AhsanU] I'd heed this advice. For the costs of turning this "guitar" into something 100% functional and playable you could easily score one of MANY amazing, economically priced guitars both new _and_ used. 

Not to mention, you're best putting in your request for a refund ASAP, as Emperion have been fucking assholes about getting people their money back. 

If you really want a quality 7-string V, take a look at the B.C. Rick Jr.V-7.


----------



## Forced Chaos (Jul 19, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you really want a quality 7-string V, take a look at the B.C. Rick Jr.V-7.


 
I'd love to have one of them to mate up with it's 6-string brother but damn I wish they came in more colors than only purple. Just can't get along with that color....killer guitar though non the less.


----------



## Customisbetter (Jul 19, 2010)




----------



## Ben.Last (Jul 20, 2010)

Forced Chaos said:


> I'd love to have one of them to mate up with it's 6-string brother but damn I wish they came in more colors than only purple. Just can't get along with that color....killer guitar though non the less.



I'd think it would be infinitely easier to get along with a guitar being purple than a guitar having the issues this one does.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 20, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Honestly, if I was you [AhsanU] I'd heed this advice. For the costs of turning this "guitar" into something 100% functional and playable you could easily score one of MANY amazing, economically priced guitars both new _and_ used.
> 
> Not to mention, you're best putting in your request for a refund ASAP, as Emperion have been fucking assholes about getting people their money back.
> 
> If you really want a quality 7-string V, take a look at the B.C. Rick Jr.V-7.



I'm probably going to return it. I honestly would've found the money somewhere to fix the fret and the Floyd cavity, but the fact it didn't come with an OHSC is what's done it for me. I can't exactly carry a guitar without any case to 48th St. Times Square in Manhattan.

I'm not a fan of B.C. Rich guitars, and I've already decided what to do with the money I receive. I've already gotten a quote for a 7 string Dean Razorback V built to my specs. As soon as I get the refunded money, I'm giving it straight to Dean so I can get another dream guitar 

Thanks for the help and suggestions though guys. I appreciate it


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 22, 2010)

Little update while the site was down:

I asked for a refund, and Francesco from Emperion has told me that they will not give me a refund. I told them about the hideous Floyd Rose cavity, as well as the dead note, and the cosmetic issues, and yet they still don't deem it a qualifying reason to give me a refund.

As far as the dead note goes, they're claiming that the note is dead because of some calibration shit. Here's the first reply I got from them when I asked for a refund:

*"I'm sorry to inform you that after we received your previous e-mail we can't give you any refund or accept the coming back of the guitar. In the moment you said you were satisfied about the quality and the set up of the instrument, we were sure of the conditions of the guitar, because we set it. By now also a string change may cause little variation in the quality of the guitar.
Permit me to explain you this point tecnically, just because I want to give you the clearest explanation I can. When you bought the guitar the thing we did, a part from the customization, was this: we gave it to our external lab that made a calibration, which means that the luthier calibrated the bridge, changed the strings, polished the frets and the entire neck. This doesn't mean that this could be considered a definitive calibration. The change of temperature, the shipping, the use of the instrument, the different tension and type of strings are definitively factors that change this original calibration, because of the fact that the wood, for its natural characteristics, change its shape. This is the reason why every luthier you may meet on your way will tell you that is absolutely necessary after at least a month after you have a brand new guitar to make another calibration, because only at that time the wood can be considered stable. But this is something I can't do for you. It will be up to you to take care of your personal instrument.
By now I can ensure you there were not dead notes when the guitar left our warehouse, and the fact that you was initially satisfied about the instrument confirms me that it is happened what's normal for every brand new guitar. This is not a problem of respecting or scamming each other. I think you can perfectly understand the things you are saying are obviously not sufficient reasons to give you a refund. This is the reason why we put inside the guitar an official paper which guarantees the work of our external lab.

I'm sorry if this may cause you troubles, but as I said we can't do anything for you in this case."*

After which, I replied by stating that the Floyd Rose cavity was unacceptable, and that it was causing issues with the tuning, as well as the fact that the guitar isn't anywhere near the same as the original mock up, as well as the issues as far as the dents and scratches go. And I wasn't lying here, after playing around with the tremolo and abusing it a bit, the guitar went completely out of tune. The strings didn't just go flat or sharp a bit, the strings went over a step and a half flat and sharp. Which is extremely unheard of. The strings have been stretched out completely (because I've been playing the guitar a lot), but Emperion has replied saying this:

*"I don't really understand why the Floyd Rose cavity bother you that much. Maybe it is not symmetric and that's true, but we are talking about a part that is completely hidden, so I don't see it as a problem, considering the fact that it is perfectly useful for its purpose.Dents, scratches, swirl marks are the normal consequences of the glossy painting. The only way to solve this problem is to paint it as the Paul Reed Smith brand does with 1/1.2 millimeters of paint on the top. The only problem is that this technique kills completely the resonance and if it takes a hit completely crack the paint.
As far as the completely different shape you are talking about: first of all is not completely different, but just a little bit, and this does not anyway compromise the access to any of the frets on the neck.
Finally it seems clear to me when you talk me about the problems you had touching the tremolo, or that the shipment creates some difference in the set up or that the strings are brand new and so you need to stretch them a little bit to maintain the tuning. 
Anyway this does not depend on the guitar. This, as I said, is not something we can accept to refund you the money."*

I'm about to fire back an e-mail. This is bullshit.

I retract my original statement, this company fucking blows.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 22, 2010)

^ That's some fucking bullshit. I would be absolutely furious if I received those responses. I'm even a little pissed off just reading them.


----------



## exo (Jul 22, 2010)

dude, THEY SENT IT TO YOU WITH THE FLOYD MISASSEMBLED!!!!!! How this can NOT be a legit cause for return is beyond me.......


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 22, 2010)

Wait before you write the e-mail back and cool your head first. If you send incorrectly phrased explenations because you're blinded by anger (and trust me I can understand if you are) then you're not gonna get anywhere.

You need to work on the factual valid points that you have, and I can give you some:

Fact 1:

His story about the guitar causing a dead note due to humidity changes etc. He is right in saying that humidity obviously affects the guitar and an improper set up can as well. When did you start getting the dead note? Did you change the strings, the tuning of the guitar or anything like that?

If that's not what happened, a few things could have happened. I'm not a luthier but what seems most prominent to me is that the fret wasn't properly slotted in, thus when the wood whent from warmer to cold (airplane cargo=fuck cold) the wood densed up, sliding the fret out. I've had this happen to an Ibanez RG 1527 before as well, the store did a free fret job as compensation because they told me ''There's no way a fret is allowed to leave the wood after some climate changes when you consider the fact that the guitar gets shipped 2 times before it even reaches our store. If it slides out it's because of a bad fret job or worse, a bad slot job.'' This fell under the warranty of my guitar.

Fact 2:

The Floyd Rose cavity. Yes it's completely hidden, but it also blocks functionality. I'll need confirmation from some SS.org members on this but I wouldn't be surprised if this would cause the part where the screws are hinged to, to get blocked by the wood. This wouldnt just cause tuning issues, it could damage your trem in the long run. Also, there's a reason no other company routes like this. From the picture I'm gonna guess they improperly aligned the screw holes for the cavity cover and decided to route around it instead of drilling a few new holes and filling the old ones, then covering them up with the finish (they most likely drilled after the finish was done so they were too lazy to refinish, not that it would have even been necassary for functionality's sake but yea).

Fact 3:

Under EU law (and this is where it gets wonky for you since your in the USA) if you buy goods and you recieve something different than what was sold to you, the company is lawfully bound to give you a refund. You could threaten them with this, but if you want to you would have to look up the article number & paragraph of the law in which this is stated, as it's been way too long since I've had trade law 

Hope this helps.

EDIT: You can always have a certified luthier look at it ( I know there would be tons willing to do it because they would see this ''guitar'' as raping a tree ) and make a written statement on how ridiculous this is.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 22, 2010)

exo said:


> dude, THEY SENT IT TO YOU WITH THE FLOYD MISASSEMBLED!!!!!! How this can NOT be a legit cause for return is beyond me.......



Welcome to the world of Emperion where four month late deliveries, wrong specs, wrong hardware, awful routes, shitty paint, and missing accessories are just "impatient customers" and people who don't know how to change strings. 

They're customer service has been on par with Sims and DeVries. I don't see how ANYONE could still look at these guys as a viable guitar company/gear importer, and not the liars and thieves that they are. 

They have done little more than say their PAYING CUSTOMERS are either impatient, stupid, or just wrong.


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 22, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Welcome to the world of Emperion where four month late deliveries, wrong specs, wrong hardware, awful routes, shitty paint, and missing accessories are just "impatient customers" and people who don't know how to change strings.
> 
> They're customer service has been on par with Sims and DeVries. I don't see how ANYONE could still look at these guys as a viable guitar company/gear importer, and not the liars and thieves that they are.
> 
> They have done little more than say their PAYING CUSTOMERS are either impatient, stupid, or just wrong.



To a certain degree I kinda felt that things got out of control for them being too small of a company for that large amount of orders. That certain amount of degree ended with that e-mail responce. Even before I would have never ever bought a guitar from them, but this just makes me jump over the fence and want to tell everyone ''DO NOT BUY AN EMPERION''. In fact I am gonna do so. 

Shit, I can use them for my next PR project at uni 

EDIT: I just remembered I've already been warning people about them


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 22, 2010)

JaeSwift said:


> Wait before you write the e-mail back and cool your head first. If you send incorrectly phrased explenations because you're blinded by anger (and trust me I can understand if you are) then you're not gonna get anywhere.
> 
> You need to work on the factual valid points that you have, and I can give you some:
> 
> ...



I'm a very level-headed guy. The replies in which I'm sending contain no swear words, and they're well written and articulate. In no way am I insulting them (directly that is, although wanting a refund for a guitar that I'm claiming is sub-par quality might be insulting to them). I'm merely telling them the issues with the guitar.

The issue with the dead note goes like this: I got the guitar, played it around for maybe 5 minutes. I didn't get to play every single note, so I couldn't tell if there was a dead fret from when I received the guitar. After which, I restrung the guitar, and started playing it. I then noticed the dead note because I was playing a song that uses the 11th fret on the D. After which, I intonated the guitar. Even though the set-up I did was complete, I still had a dead note. I then changed tuning (Bb standard), and the dead note was still there. So I really don't know.

I've just replied to them with the Floyd Rose tuning issue, stating that the guitar still goes out of tune, despite the fact that the strings are stretched out. If they say anything back about the Floyd, I'll throw in the fact that the routing will cause long term damage to the Floyd. Thank you for that.

As far as the EU law goes - I don't know if I could use it. Going to the authorities, trying to settle this legally.. it seems like such a fucking hassle. I'm a real peaceful kind of guy, and I don't like involving the law when it comes to matters like these. But if it comes to it, then so be it. I was considering just cutting my losses and moving on. Like, sell the Floyd Rose, sell the Blackouts, then just sell the shit guitar for dirt cheap and make back half of what I lost, but if I can fight them, then I'll try.


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 22, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> I'm a very level-headed guy. The replies in which I'm sending contain no swear words, and they're well written and articulate. In no way am I insulting them (directly that is, although wanting a refund for a guitar that I'm claiming is sub-par quality might be insulting to them). I'm merely telling them the issues with the guitar.
> 
> The issue with the dead note goes like this: I got the guitar, played it around for maybe 5 minutes. I didn't get to play every single note, so I couldn't tell if there was a dead fret from when I received the guitar. After which, I restrung the guitar, and started playing it. I then noticed the dead note because I was playing a song that uses the 11th fret on the D. After which, I intonated the guitar. Even though the set-up I did was complete, I still had a dead note. I then changed tuning (Bb standard), and the dead note was still there. So I really don't know.
> 
> ...



For arguments sake I'de leave the part where you set up the guitar out of it as it just gives them a bit more fuel, you'de need someone who has more knowledge about fretboards than I do when it comes to that (eg; what causes a dead note etc.). 

Also ,when it comes to law honestly I wouldnt bother going that route, what I meant was if you show them that your an informed consumer they likely will be more compensating towards you than when they think they can just pull anything with you and that's that. I understand your a real peaceful guy but in the end of the day it's the money you made that you spend on something you wanted to be happy with, and instead you have to spend more money for Nurofen to stop the headaches you got from this.

Do a bit of research, but I'm fairly confident you can get a refund if you do this timely. Just don't expect it to come easy because right now they're like a cornered animal, from what I heard they've been getting refunds left and right and they aren't doing too well, so any excuse they can throw at you (your set up causing the dead note etc.) to prevent them from having to refund you, they will grab with open arms.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 22, 2010)

Just an idea, but does Sam Ash have any Luthiers who would do a write up for you about the problems with the guitar? That might help with the authorities shouldyou pursue that route, having an official "assessment" from a 3rd party. 
I am really sorry that your guitar turned out so bad. 

I think JaeSwift's advice seems sound, and even though you are a relaxed guy, this is definitely something I would not just let go of. You kind of have nothing to lose by pursuing a resolution at this point.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 23, 2010)

Psionicist said:


> Just an idea, but does Sam Ash have any Luthiers who would do a write up for you about the problems with the guitar? That might help with the authorities shouldyou pursue that route, having an official "assessment" from a 3rd party.
> I am really sorry that your guitar turned out so bad.
> 
> I think JaeSwift's advice seems sound, and even though you are a relaxed guy, this is definitely something I would not just let go of. You kind of have nothing to lose by pursuing a resolution at this point.



That actually sounds like a great idea. I'll give Sam Ash a call tomorrow.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2010)

Humidity and shipping don't have a significant effect on a guitar to cause a dead note like that. That's just BS. You don't even need to bring the guitar to a luthier to get confirmation of that. Simply call them or PM/email Huf, Vik, Jim of S7, Kurt, ant luthier/company. Dead notes are due to only 3 possible things: the string is flattened (not the case since you changed them), the fret is over polished in the area of the dead note, or the fret just above it is high or underlevelled. If the fret was improperly pressed in, it is possible it could work it's way out with humidity or shipping, but that just reflects a subpar fretting. Secondly, the dead note would not be just one string, it would be many or all of them.
As for the Floyd route, that is ridiculous. The engine in my car is hidden too, does that give Honda the right to fuck it up? The fact of the matter is, that's a manufacturing defect that could in no way be mistaken for anything else. ALL warranties protect against manufacturing defects.
What's their excuse for the wrong color inlays? You should point that out, too.
And, I can't believe they have the cajones to say that their paint job is better than PRS's because PRS guitars suffer from lack of tones. Here's what should be obvious to us all that this point: there was no middle man that screwed them. These guys want a fast buck, and if lying is necessary to get there ( including making up some false story about another guy and working without pay) then so be it.
I would start with a you tube post of all of the flaws with the guitar, and title it "Emperion guitars are scammers." this needs to be out there before they screw anyone else over.
Sorry if this was rant-like, but their email to you just totally pissed me off. That is so unethical I can't contain myself.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 23, 2010)

Humidity and shipping don't have a significant effect on a guitar to cause a dead note like that. That's just BS. You don't even need to bring the guitar to a luthier to get confirmation of that. Simply call them or PM/email Huf, Vik, Jim of S7, Kurt, any luthier/company. Dead notes are due to only 3 possible things: the string is flattened (not the case since you changed them), the fret is over polished in the area of the dead note, or the fret just above it is high or underlevelled. If the fret was improperly pressed in, it is possible it could work it's way out with humidity or shipping, but that just reflects a subpar fretting. Secondly, the dead note would not be just one string, it would be many or all of them.
As for the Floyd route, that is ridiculous. The engine in my car is hidden too, does that give Honda the right to fuck it up? The fact of the matter is, that's a manufacturing defect that could in no way be mistaken for anything else. ALL warranties protect against manufacturing defects.
What's their excuse for the wrong color inlays? You should point that out, too.
And, I can't believe they have the cajones to say that their paint job is better than PRS's because PRS guitars suffer from lack of tone. Here's what should be obvious to us all that this point: there was no middle man that screwed them. These guys want a fast buck, and if lying is necessary to get there ( including making up some false story about another guy and working without pay) then so be it.
I would start with a you tube post of all of the flaws with the guitar, and title it "Emperion guitars are scammers." this needs to be out there before they screw anyone else over.
Sorry if this was rant-like, but their email to you just totally pissed me off. That is so unethical I can't contain myself.


----------



## Ben.Last (Jul 23, 2010)

Everything he stated in those emails is complete and utter BS. He basically did the, "I'm going to use some big sounding words that don't actually mean anything special... I know... 'calibration'" shtick with you.

Didn't they state from the start that they were allowing a rather generous return period on all their guitars??? I seem to remember that being part of the deal. If it was, then that's a legally binding contract and they have to honor it. 

This has put me over the edge from "they really fucked things up" to "they really deserve to have this drive their business into the ground for good."


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 23, 2010)

Prepare for more bullshit. I just got this mail, and it infuriated me.

*"If you are talking me about tuning problems, this can only be a problem of the Floyd Rose and not a guitar problem. You can't say that you were expecting a different guitar just because you first pre-ordered it, we returned you the money, then you ordered it again after knowing it was different, so you were informed about it. I don't want to put it from a legal point of view, but you will find in every international commercial code that this means that you cannot use this as a refund cause, just because you were informed about the differences. 
You are talking me about Jackson and Dean: did you ever opened them? Did you ever see the kind of wiring they have inside? The only difference is that they are not so kind to talk with the customers as we do, because they already have a name. We are here to understand where we get wrong, and in this sense mails like yours are important. 
But since I received your first e-mail I did not find any sufficient reason to give you any refund. There is only one thing left to say. When the guitar left our warehouse was perfect and it perfectly keeps the tone. If this wasn't so, we would never ever had sent that guitar, because it would never ever came out the luthier's lab. This is the reason why we put with the guitar a paper for the guarantee of the set up. After you played it how can I be sure you did not move anything or change the set up? Every little change can cause the problems you described."*

Wow, are you serious? He's blaming the physical Floyd Rose and not the terrible routing or anything? 

A quick thing to mention: I was partially refunded, but I didn't ask for a refund because the guitar wasn't built to my specs, but because I had car issues and needed the money. After I found some spare cash to fix my car, I went ahead and gave back the money.

This is starting to really annoy me. What the fuck? Does he really think I'm stupid or something?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2010)

The fact that he has the gal to say "The only difference is that they are not so kind to talk with the customers as we do, because they already have a name. We are here to understand where we get wrong, and in this sense mails like yours are important." 

As if the customer service up to this point has been anything more than lies, unkempt promises, pointing blame, deceitfulness, and disrespect for their customer base. 

So lets see they've know bashed Jackson, Dean, and PRS. What fucking assholes. That's what they really are.

Does anyone know if Italy or the EU has their own form of the Better Business Bureau?


----------



## Fred the Shred (Jul 23, 2010)

The EU has strict laws regarding returns, and national laws from member states are usually an extention / implementation of the EU rules.

In Portugal, this translates into we being able to return a product for a full refund regardless of it having defects within a certain timespan. I believe that, currently, the deadline is one month after obtaining the product. The one condition is that the product you're returning contains the original papers, package and accessories, and that it is undamaged. Period. How it was like when it left, how they could even hear angels sing whenever they struck a chord, and if the evil Floyd Rose was possessed by the evil squirrel is irrelevant.


----------



## JaeSwift (Jul 23, 2010)

Depending on how you word it he did just admit that there is a Floyd problem. Also, were you aware of the routing issues before they sent you the guitar?

And yes, what Fred said clarified, confirmed and addes to what I have been saying. Tey have to refund you by law, period.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Jul 23, 2010)

Even if they didn't have to accept the return based of the above, the routing, operation and overall functionality is the sole responsability of the assembler of the final product, who is bound by law to provide a replacement or refund depending on the customer's choice. What we see here clearly qualifies as a defective product by any standard, and as such the argument is invalid.

They should redouble the joy they expressed when I got my Emperion and it was a clean example, as they would be knee-deep in shit if I had got a defective product and they refused to reimburse me.


----------



## Psionicist (Jul 23, 2010)

Wow...reading their response just makes me sick inside. AhsanU, I would be pissed off, frankly I would be going postal on them if they lived in the U.S., but you have to remain calm and somewhat scientific at least in taking the next steps. 
If you havent done so already, I would 
1. Get a screenshot/print off (I'm not very tech saavy either) of their return policy from their website. 
2. With that, i would get pics of the Guitar as promised (i.e their mock-up) and anything else
3. Organize your transactions and communications by date and put that all into one file (starting from when you put down your deposit)
4. Document your concerns as it stands now in a brief way. 
5. Figure out how to file this complaint in the EU ( I think forumites can help there.... I remember someone posting they had to file something with France before they could get a charge back??)

Things I woud consider:
1. Is a charge back possible at this point?
2. I would send them an Ultimatum-style email. But be calm. I would ask something like "So just for clarity, am I correct in understanding that Emperion is refusing to give me a refund for this guitar?". 
3. In your letter to whatever agency it is that oversees this, I would explain not only all the mechanical problems (though that seems to be your best case), but also the resistance on Emperions part to issue a refund. Express to the agency that you have tried to resolve this yourself and are requesting their help. They may even have a form for you to fill out or something like that. 

All these suggestions are just there to try and help you organize your thoughts and move forward. Even though I have tried to stay positive/hopeful through the "Emperion experience", this is just unacceptable.


----------



## Andromalia (Jul 23, 2010)

I have no clue about laws since you bought in the US, honestly.
But the feeling I got from Emperion as I had to struggle, menace and threaten legal action to get 1/3rd of my refund, and had to action a CC chargeback for the rest, is that they're simply broke. 

Best payback is, warn people not to buy them in the future. Signal their Facebook account as a scam site. Keep pictures for showing in forums whenever someone will talk of one. Etc.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 23, 2010)

JaeSwift said:


> Depending on how you word it he did just admit that there is a Floyd problem. Also, were you aware of the routing issues before they sent you the guitar?
> 
> And yes, what Fred said clarified, confirmed and addes to what I have been saying. Tey have to refund you by law, period.



I was aware of the cosmetic changes to the guitar (lack of gold inlays, neck joint, top) but I was NOT aware of the Floyd Rose. I was shown three pictures of the guitar, and luckily, I've kept the e-mails so I can use them as proof.



Psionicist said:


> Wow...reading their response just makes me sick inside. AhsanU, I would be pissed off, frankly I would be going postal on them if they lived in the U.S., but you have to remain calm and somewhat scientific at least in taking the next steps.
> If you havent done so already, I would
> 1. Get a screenshot/print off (I'm not very tech saavy either) of their return policy from their website.
> 2. With that, i would get pics of the Guitar as promised (i.e their mock-up) and anything else
> ...



They have no return policy on their website, what-so-ever. I would need help as far as legality is concerned, I've never done anything like this before. As far as charge backs go - I paid through paypal. And paypal has a policy in which you cannot get a refund through their resolution center if it's been 40 days (or something like that) since you've paid. They've very clearly stated that they see no sufficient reason to give me a refund. So they are quite clearly saying "I'm not giving you a refund".

I also sent them an e-mail stating the long term issues with the way they carved out the Floyd cavity, as well as the constant tuning issues I'll have. Let's see what they say, I'll likely get a reply on Monday morning.

As far as taking legal actions go - where would I start?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 23, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> As far as taking legal actions go - where would I start?



Learn what your rights are, and how the EU's policies regarding buyer protection are extended to you, if at all. 

Save all e-mails.
Save all pics.
Get your dates down.
Get names.

When you used PayPal did you use funds that were already in your PayPal account or did you use a card or bank transfer through PayPal?

Also, if I was you, I'd speak to an attorney. There should be several in your area offering free consultations.

Go into some of the Emperion threads and get some more info. Look into what they've lied about, and what they're said. Also, I believe a couple members took screen shots of Emperions return policy which has been _coincidently_ removed from their site after they started fucking people.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 24, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> When you used PayPal did you use funds that were already in your PayPal account or did you use a card or bank transfer through PayPal?


 
^This. You can still do a charge-back if the funds for the PayPal were drawn from your credit card.

I suspect we've seen the last of the refunds, too. My guess is that pretty much every instrument coming out of their shop is crappy, and they don't want to do any more refunds. There's no way they could otherwise justify not giving you (or the other guy with the Scorpius) a refund, and still maintain that under some other circumstances a refund would be given.

I still emphasize that you must document all of this for youtube purposes. Mind you, I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to post it before you find out what your legal rights are, but once you know...


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 24, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> They have no return policy on their website, what-so-ever.


Yes, but they did. Thank God for Google cached pages!










You need to go to Google and type in Emperion guitars return, and it will show you what the page looked like before they deleted the refund policy. There's your proof of that. Save that whole page before the google crawler replaces it with the updated version.

EDIT: Actually, I just checked, and the return policy is still there. Just click on the GTC link on the top bar of their web page, and there it is. So it doesn't look like they're trying to hide it at all.


----------



## beneharris (Jul 24, 2010)

JaeSwift said:


> For arguments sake I'de leave the part where you set up the guitar out of it as it just gives them a bit more fuel, you'de need someone who has more knowledge about fretboards than I do when it comes to that (eg; what causes a dead note etc.).


nono. don't lie about it. if they aren't going to have any integrity in this, then you need to. 

this does really suck. from the pictures, it looks like a decently cool guitar, but they will definitely not even be getting a second thought from me


----------



## Ben.Last (Jul 24, 2010)

Wow. Right there in those screen shots it looks like it says "100% Satisfaction Guaranteed"

Although, what exactly that means for an item that is wrong and damaged AS WELL AS having other issues is kind of hazy.


----------



## Andromalia (Jul 24, 2010)

They don't do refunds, I had to charge back my CC to get the money. I received stalling emails for some time and then silence. 
The good thing, is that they actually are the ones paying for the chargeback fees as they failed to deliver. 
They asked for installments, paid the first one and went turtle after it. So i actually gained money on this since the bank did a chargeback on the whole payment, I'll wait for them to ask for it eh, serves them right.
I've gone from patient to disgusted with them and I'll be happy if their factory burns and will make sure to discourage anyone from buying one.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 24, 2010)

The payments I made were through paypal, but paypal took it from my debit card that's linked to it. So yeah, I basically did charge my debit card.

For those of you whom did a charge back - did you return the guitar then request a charge back? Hell, I wouldn't mind just wrapping the damn thing up and sending it back and then request a charge back.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 24, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> The payments I made were through paypal, but paypal took it from my debit card that's linked to it. So yeah, I basically did charge my debit card.
> 
> For those of you whom did a charge back - did you return the guitar then request a charge back? Hell, I wouldn't mind just wrapping the damn thing up and sending it back and then request a charge back.



Speak to the bank that issued the card ASAP!


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 24, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Speak to the bank that issued the card ASAP!



+1. Get on this right away, because like everything else, there's a time limit on it, I'm sure. You don't want to miss it by a day or two!


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 24, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> +1. Get on this right away, because like everything else, there's a time limit on it, I'm sure. You don't want to miss it by a day or two!



Arrrrrr! Thanks fellas. I'll have to try for Monday, because I'm extremely busy tomorrow.


----------



## ZeroS1gnol (Jul 25, 2010)

wow, after this (another crappy Emperion) I vote for a thread with a list of brands/manufacturers to stay clear from to be stickied. How about that?


----------



## Andromalia (Jul 25, 2010)

Not sure it'd be a good idea as: 

1) Who reads stickies anyway
2) At some point _someone _will put Gibson, Fender, Jackson etc in it. Better to answer to topics relating to someone wanting to buy one, plus I'm not sure having a sticky with "don't buy this" would be legal in most places.



> For those of you whom did a charge back - did you return the guitar then request a charge back?


I cancelled the order as soon as the first horror pictures started to appear. Never got a guitar AND they didn't voluntarily refund the money, I had to grab it out of their hands through my bank. Guess the company bank account now has a nice - in the bottom line.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 25, 2010)

ZeroS1gnol said:


> wow, after this (another crappy Emperion) I vote for a thread with a list of brands/manufacturers to stay clear from to be stickied. How about that?



While in theory that's a great idea, and it certainly has been mentioned over the last two years, given the amount of builders who have gone under, or are shady to begin with (seems to be the nature of the guitar building beast) it just doesn't work in practice. 

The forum mods tend to have to watch stuff like that, like hawks, and it really turns into more of a headache than a help. It's not the forum's job to police builders. There's typically enough info here, and on the net about a given builder. If someone decides not to research who they're giving their money to in the first place, then frankly, they're probably too stupid to use the sticky, and even if they do, probably too naive to really put it to use. 

Not to mention, like Andromalia mentioned, you'll have tons of folks chiming in about companies and builders who they _feel_ wronged them (or their friend's, cousin's, aunt's, boyfriend), but didn't actually, talking shit. 

It's just going to turn into a shit flinging fest. 

You want to warn folks about Emperion, create a free blog, or website title it "Emperion Warning" or something, and tell the tale of how fucking big of assholes they are, which they really are fucking assholes.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 25, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You want to warn folks about Emperion, create a free blog, or website title it "Emperion Warning" or something, and tell the tale of how fucking big of assholes they are, which they really are fucking assholes.



Once again, I have to +1 MaxofMetal's recommendation. The best way is to post a youtube vid and a website and warn people. Who knows, it might actually get you a refund.


----------



## TXDeathMetal (Jul 25, 2010)

Wow... 2 threads in the same day about how horrible Emperion guitars are with pics is def. an attention getter to me. I will def. spread the word about them to friends and anyone else who may be considering buying from them to stay way the hell away.


----------



## Ben.Last (Jul 25, 2010)

Also, a sticky would not have helped in this instance seeing as Emperion was brand new (and, in fact, the couple examples floating about of their custom guitars were good)


----------



## Fred the Shred (Jul 25, 2010)

Not to mention they are (quite surprisingly) capable of releasing quite decent instruments. I'm even afraid of being filmed using mine live - people might think they're all like that and get another infamous melon.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 26, 2010)

Fred the Shred said:


> Not to mention they are (quite surprisingly) capable of releasing quite decent instruments. I'm even afraid of being filmed using mine live - people might think they're all like that and get another infamous melon.



Lmao, great minds think alike. I just finished a cover of Amon Amarth's The Pursuit Of Vikings, and I'm just gonna record myself playing one of my Dean's instead of the Emperion I used to record it, because I don't want people thinking that I approve of the company.


----------



## tatgren (Jul 26, 2010)

well after see a lot of pictures about that, i must have to say that i'm a lucky guy, my emprions is a very good guitar...but hey...only my guitar...after looking those guitars that belong to others guys...man that brand is a piece of ****, i must to correct my forum and warm people about this brand


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 26, 2010)

Well, I just got a reply from Francesco. It would appear he's become desperate.

*
Once again I repeat I can perfectly understand your feelings by now. I see you are trying to find every way to show me you are not satisfied, even if I'm trying to tell you it is not the way you say. And we can go on like this for months an months without find an agreement, because I'm perfectly convinced of what I'm saying about the guitar and you too.


Let me be honest: we've not interest to receive the guitar back as the whole Emperion guitar line will be dismissed and discountinued completely and immediately this week but to the faults of our guitar factory and will be replaced with a whole new line realized by new engineers.


As you may know by now we are not able to give you your money back. But if you have any proposal to find a different agreement to find the best solution for you, I'm here to listen to it. Just let me know.*

What do you guys say?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 26, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> Well, I just got a reply from Francesco. It would appear he's become desperate.
> 
> *
> Once again I repeat I can perfectly understand your feelings by now. I see you are trying to find every way to show me you are not satisfied, even if I'm trying to tell you it is not the way you say. And we can go on like this for months an months without find an agreement, because I'm perfectly convinced of what I'm saying about the guitar and you too.
> ...



FUCK!

Now we have to watch out for a whole other brand of shitty guitars from these assholes!

If you can't get your cash, have them send you some more name brand pickups. Still try to get your cash though.


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 26, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> FUCK!
> 
> Now we have to watch out for a whole other brand of shitty guitars from these assholes!
> 
> If you can't get your cash, have them send you some more name brand pickups. Still try to get your cash though.



Yeah, but it wouldn't be hard to spot them. They are from Italy.

And no doubt, I'm still going for cash. Giving HSBC a call in about an hour or so to start this charge back process up.


----------



## Hollowway (Jul 26, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> And no doubt, I'm still going for cash. Giving HSBC a call in about an hour or so to start this charge back process up.



Good man! Don't let them weasel out. They don't deserve a "bailout" from you!


----------



## Scar Symmetry (Jul 27, 2010)

I was steering well clear of Emperion guitars before I read this thread, but now I think I'm going to steer even further clear.

Unacceptable responses in those emails.


----------



## drmosh (Jul 27, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I was steering well clear of Emperion guitars before I read this thread, but now I think I'm going to steer even further clear.
> 
> Unacceptable responses in those emails.



those email take the cake, ridiculous


----------



## Snytbaggen (Jul 29, 2010)

I just wanted to say that I got the repair money I was promised from them today, so as far as I'm concerned I'll send the guitar in to get the frets fixed and am done with Emperion (for now).


----------



## Andromalia (Jul 29, 2010)

Well with this story the emperion brand is dead, let's just be cautious as to what brand they'll advertise next. the guys at vader cabs sent me an email thanking me for the heads up, adding that they received a few others and are looking closely at the situation. Won't say more because of business confidentiality etc which I perfectly understand.


----------



## tatgren (Jul 30, 2010)

Hey Guys, anyone have another pictures of this brand?, http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/members/maxofmetal.htmlto show that only few people like me and Fred have a good decent guitar?


----------



## AhsanU (Jul 31, 2010)

UPDATE!

Got off the phone with HSBC and it's a little complicated. It's complicated because of the refund they gave me a little over a month ago. The way HSBC does it is they search for the transaction via the amount paid in USD and they contact the merchant about it. The first amount I paid - $443, will be disputed. But the second amount, will not be because it is not showing up on my statements because of the refund. Since they refunded, apparently the charge no longer shows up on my E-Statements. So if anything, I'll get back $443 from HSBC.

BUT, I can contact paypal and argue the recent amount I sent back to them. For some reason, every time I call 'em their line just disconnects on me.  So I'll call tomorrow I suppose.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jul 31, 2010)

Sounds like you're making headway. I wish you the best of luck in getting made whole.


----------



## BenInKY (Aug 29, 2010)

I don't know if this will help but a good site to post your story on is:

The Consumerist


----------



## slanderous777 (Sep 7, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> Got off the phone with HSBC and it's a little complicated. It's complicated because of the refund they gave me a little over a month ago. The way HSBC does it is they search for the transaction via the amount paid in USD and they contact the merchant about it. The first amount I paid - $443, will be disputed. But the second amount, will not be because it is not showing up on my statements because of the refund. Since they refunded, apparently the charge no longer shows up on my E-Statements. So if anything, I'll get back $443 from HSBC.
> 
> BUT, I can contact paypal and argue the recent amount I sent back to them. For some reason, every time I call 'em their line just disconnects on me.  So I'll call tomorrow I suppose.




If anyone can help you its your bank not the thieves at paypal. 

Long story short I shipped a 600$ schecter guitar to spain. Because the buyer of the guitar chose the cheapest possible international shipping with insurance it took a few months to get there. Before the guitar even arrived he started a paypal dispute with me and got all his money back even though I showed paypal evidence of him knowing about the travel time. 

When the guitar eventually arrives theres a small mix up and it says he never recieved it at first. After a few days I investigate and get canada post and the spainish postal service to investigate and he did receive it after all. I get written evidence from both agencies and paypal still says I owe them 600$, 

Lets just say after months of debt collectors and harassment legal action was taken.

Fuck paypal. Thank you.


----------



## UltimaWeapon (Sep 7, 2010)

As i read this thread im so happy that i didnt ordered from them anything XD and they told me that a custom 7 with my own specifications would cost only 600eus OMG god thanks XD


----------



## AhsanU (Sep 7, 2010)

UltimaWeapon said:


> As i read this thread im so happy that i didnt ordered from them anything XD and they told me that a custom 7 with my own specifications would cost only 600eus OMG god thanks XD



Hah, you got lucky man! Many of us are stuck with a guitar we really don't like.

But a little update to this thread: I asked for a 20% refund, which is $160. They've agreed to it and will give it to me by next weekend. It's better than nothing really, and it'll give me enough to put a deposit down on a custom guitar.


----------



## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

AhsanU said:


> Hah, you got lucky man! Many of us are stuck with a guitar we really don't like.
> 
> But a little update to this thread: I asked for a 20% refund, which is $160. They've agreed to it and will give it to me by next weekend. It's better than nothing really, and it'll give me enough to put a deposit down on a custom guitar.


Now, ask for the other 80% back in bareknuckle pickups and sell me a pair of warpigs for cheap, ceramic and alnico, bridge and neck, respectively.


----------



## Thrashmanzac (Sep 7, 2010)

hey mate i dunno if this helps the legal side of things, but ni was just on their site and saw this notice :


> Counterfeit WARNING !
> 
> We've been warned that on Ebay someone is selling a prototype of a never released to the public guitar model.
> 
> ...



...sounds alot like some of the problems your guitar has, and they are admitting to doing it on purpose to make the guitar unplayable. just thought i'd let you know mate.
i'll attach a screen shot of it for you.


----------



## ittoa666 (Sep 7, 2010)

This guitar is epic fail disappointment.


----------



## Thrashmanzac (Sep 7, 2010)

also, if this is the guitar you ordered : Emperion Guitars - Our Guitars then it is obviously not what they sent you


----------

