# Kicked out of my band, apparently :wallbash:



## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

so, before i joined Summoning Hate, they recorded tracks for an album. i heard some of the rough mixes a couple months ago (which are posted on the myspace page still currently linked to in my signature, btw), and tonight at practice, we listened to a couple fully mixed songs that we'd been sent by the engineer to approve or comment on.

they had tracked the drums without using a click track, so the time wasn't perfect. also, the other guitarist doesn't have the best sense of time, so that didn't help. there are also a few parts where the guitar tracks are a little out of tune with each other, and it sounds like the bassist got studio nerves and hit some wrong notes. overall the whole thing sounds sloppy and unprofessional. the mix isn't that great, and that doesn't help matters, either (i think the guy doing it knows what he's doing, but doesn't have much experience with metal...plus he's working with less-than-great performances by everyone)...but in any case, i think that they're getting ripped off a bit on the price vs. product quality.

the band has had some label interest from a local-ish label (i think they have national distribution, though), and they were planning on shopping this album to labels.

after listening at practice tonight, i stated that i was not happy with the way it sounded, and that i would be embarrassed to release this. i believe what i said was something to the effect of, "if you release this, people are going to listen to it and think the band sucks"....yes, a bit blunt, and perhaps a bit harsher than i'd intended. the thing is, i really think it's true, and i was only trying to be helpful. anyway, the bassist had left before we started talking about this, but the other guitarist, the drummer, and i talked about it for a while, and i'd thought we'd left it at "well, do what you want with it, but i would prefer not to have my name attached to this recording" (which i think is perfectly reasonable, seeing as i had nothing to do with it).

when i came home, i checked my myspace and saw that i had a message from the bassist, from the band's account, saying that he thought what i'd said was "very fucked up" and that i was lucky he wasn't there, and that i should return the keys to the practice space. he'd also removed me from the band's myspace page and friends list.

i replied saying that i was really sorry, and realized that what i'd said had come off harsher than i'd intended, and that i'm more than willing to compromise, if they're willing to discuss things in a reasonable, civil manner. if not, i'll go pick up my gear later this week and leave the keys. i've really enjoyed playing with this band, even though they're not the most professional people or best musicians i've ever played with (far from it, in fact, but i _know_ they can do better than what these recordings show).

i'm really bothered by this whole thing


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## Zepp88 (May 21, 2008)

Wow, sounds like they're too full of themselves to realized that their performances are sub-par. I don't think what you said was harsh, just truthful. 

If it really is a sloppy recording I would think they'd be willing to work hard to re-record it and get it to the best possible level before shopping for a label. 

Their loss I suppose...


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

basically what the drummer and guitarist said, was that they'd put a lot of time and money into recording this stuff, and that they're worried that the label will lose interest if they don't hurry up and get it done...plus, they can't afford to have the money they spent on tracking be a waste, and then spend more money and take more time to re-record it.

thing is, we did the first RVG album at nate's house, and the whole thing cost us like $250, and it at least sounds decent. that's about 1/10 of what they've put into this recording.


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## Zepp88 (May 21, 2008)

Yeah, and he would probably have no problem doing a recording for Summoning Hate with out charging them a rediculous amount 

My old band did the same shit though, we had our first demo recorded in some studio that costed way too much, we sucked, the recording sucked, we ended up at Nates about a year later to re-record it.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> Yeah, and he would probably have no problem doing a recording for Summoning Hate with out charging them a rediculous amount
> 
> My old band did the same shit though, we had our first demo recorded in some studio that costed way too much, we sucked, the recording sucked, we ended up at Nates about a year later to re-record it.



yeah, but going to VA to do it would get expensive, even if he gave us the same deal he gave tim 4 years ago


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## Zepp88 (May 21, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> yeah, but going to VA to do it would get expensive, even if he gave us the same deal he gave tim 4 years ago



Yep that's certainly true, just seems kind of pompous to me that they don't want to look at it critically, granted I don't know them so I'm kinda talking out of my ass. But kicking you out for that? Stupid.


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## ibznorange (May 21, 2008)

Saving Money < Sounding like not balls
Fuck em. if theyre that absurd about stuff, i dont care how well they play. The band is going nowhere


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## InTheRavensName (May 21, 2008)

^+1, labels aren't going to be interested in a band that don't sound professional. Style and songwriting skill is down really to personal taste, but timing is something that is either right or wrong, and if they're not playing in time they're not going to get anywhere


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## Ryan (May 21, 2008)

Is this the same drummer that was in that clip you posted of the mystery amp? Cause if it is, I think they're doing you a favor ;p


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## Naren (May 21, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> Saving Money < Sounding like not balls
> Fuck em. if theyre that absurd about stuff, i dont care how well they play. The band is going nowhere





I can't even imagine being in a band like that. Well... there was a band I was in for about 3 months that I quit because that bass player was a control freak and he might have responded like that, but I can't imagine any of the bands I've been serious about reacting like that.

It's called "constructive criticism." I always tell people in my band to say whatever their thinking, even if it sounds harsh. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Everything has to be done with the purpose of improving the music. Improving the performance. Improving the writing. Improving the sound (tone, overall balance, etc.). And so on.

And they sound like they don't want to accept the truth that you were telling them.

Fuck them. They don't seem to have any real desire to get better and sound better.  A band like that most likely won't go anywhere important.


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## drmosh (May 21, 2008)

To me it sounds like the bassist (and the others?) know it sounds like shit, but are too afraid to admit it. That's why they react like that, they are scared of facing the fact that they wasted the cash


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## Zepp88 (May 21, 2008)

drmosh said:


> To me it sounds like the bassist (and the others?) know it sounds like shit, but are too afraid to admit it. That's why they react like that, they are scared of facing the fact that they wasted the cash



It's a lesson learned, and nothing to be ashamed of, but if it sucks why send it to labels?

The problem with the cost of recording studios is that many charge hourly rates, and unless you've got your shit together, and can nail great performances on the spot, it can get very expensive.

I could understand having frustration from this, but that's how things go.


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## El Caco (May 21, 2008)

Naren said:


> I can't even imagine being in a band like that. Well... there was a band I was in for about 3 months that I quit because that bass player was a control freak and he might have responded like that, but I can't imagine any of the bands I've been serious about reacting like that.
> 
> It's called "constructive criticism." I always tell people in my band to say whatever their thinking, even if it sounds harsh. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Everything has to be done with the purpose of improving the music. Improving the performance. Improving the writing. Improving the sound (tone, overall balance, etc.). And so on.
> 
> ...



I totally agree with that attitude.

If you don't want to be the best you can what's the fucking point?


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 21, 2008)

Fuck em. These days it's got to be a package to get anywhere. Basically, you always have to ask yourself : Would I drop 15$ on this?

If the answer is no, then it's not good enough.


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## dpm (May 21, 2008)

Valid points from everyone 

IME the most effective way to get things happening is honesty. There's no point if the result isn't worthwhile, and the world of metal is very different to how it used to be with regard to quality. You need a tight, quality recording to have any chance at all.

Another point to consider - if this is the reaction to well meant criticism I don't think these guys stand a chance of lasting on the road. The shit will really hit the fan when everyone is tired as fuck and crammed in a van together for a few weeks.


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## The Dark Wolf (May 21, 2008)

Naren said:


> It's called "constructive criticism." I always tell people in my band to say whatever their thinking, even if it sounds harsh. Don't worry about hurting my feelings. Everything has to be done with the purpose of improving the music. Improving the performance. Improving the writing. Improving the sound (tone, overall balance, etc.). And so on.


This is why I loved being in a band with you. Terrific to work with.


As for Ari... well, mayhaps his personality had something to do with it. Always two sides, and I'm betting those guys may have something different to say. The truth? Likely in the middle, as usual. 

Although I've been on the egregious end a few times, rarely, but enough to stick in my craw, where I've done absolutely jack-shit to merit someone's angst. Eh, who knows.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 21, 2008)

I think it's perfectly reasonable to not want your name attached to it, especially if you weren't on any of the recordings.


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## InTheRavensName (May 21, 2008)

^ I think that is the crux, Ari's going to be dragged in as part of what 'was'. Nevermind how good the band gets or how capable a guitarist he is, prospective record labels and even other bands will listen and think "neither of those dudes can perform in a studio situation-let's find someone who can"


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## Mattmc74 (May 21, 2008)

Sometimes the truth hurts, but I would not want my name on the recording if it was a sub-par recording. I think the others just want to hurry up and get the recordings out so they might have a chance at getting signed.But having a bad recording will NOT help get a record deal! Sucks that they kicked you out! Go on to bigger and better things.


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## Rommel (May 21, 2008)

I don't think your "critique" was harsh. If it didn't sound good to you, I don't think it'll sound better to the folks at the label. Whatever interest they had will have been lost.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

Thanks for the support, guys.

Ryan, it's a completely different drummer from that recording....that "guess the amp" clip was recorded in 2002 

the bassist replied to my message this morning, it doesn't sound like he wants to talk about it.


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## darren (May 21, 2008)

Mistake #1 is recording without a click. We record almost everything to a click, unless the song we're playing has a deliberately loose groove. It makes editing and sync-ing up with effects and MIDI stuff that much, much easier, not to mention it keeps us all in time and as tight as possible. If the drummer can't keep good time, and the rhythm guitarist ALSO can't keep good time, then they've compounded their problem and it will be very difficult to get that recording to sound tight.

Mistake #2 is letting the bass player get away with playing wrong notes. Yes, the studio can be a high-pressure environment, especially if you're paying by the hour. But he has to learn to suck it up and play shit right, or at least go back and punch in to fix errors. If everyone is too afraid to say, "That take wasn't good enough... play it again," then the band has serious communication issues. 

Mistake #3 is getting the recordings mixed by someone who isn't experienced in your genre. It'll just come out all wrong.

Some people don't learn how to critique constructively, and some people get so emotionally attached to their work that they can't separate it from their being, and they perceive critiques of their playing (or their art, design, cooking, whatever...) as a personal attack.

I suspect that's very much what's going on. You've got a bunch of guys who aren't serious enough about their craft to want to do things right and make the most out of their investment in studio time, mixing, mastering and manufacturing. And none of them have the balls to say to any of the others (or themselves, for that matter), "I think we can do this better."

I say wish them well and move on.


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## FYP666 (May 21, 2008)

Umm, no offense, but i felt that you think that you deserve better than those guys. I mean, they IMO seemed like just happy for being able to do this demo, and then you say it will be humiliating, that your name is included to this taping. Like, you are not John Petrucci or Steve Vai, so what the fuck? I didn't mean to be mean, just would you explain to me? I know what it feels like fuckin shit when recordings doesn't go the way you would like to, but hey it's just a demo, Roadrunner Records or Century Media isn't going to release your demo, right?


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

i would have figured that at least the engineer could have pointed out the problems, but apparently he wasn't really doing his job, either.

but yes, darren, i pretty much agree with you on all of that. part of the problem, however, is that i don't think they have the musical ear to recognize quite how bad these issues are, and i think they're underestimating how much their general listening audience would notice. a listener might not necessarily recognize what the issues are, but i think that they would notice that _something_ is wrong.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

FYP666 said:


> Umm, no offense, but i felt that you think that you deserve better than those guys. I mean, they IMO seemed like just happy for being able to do this demo, and then you say it will be humiliating, that your name is included to this taping. Like, you are not John Petrucci or Steve Vai, so what the fuck? I didn't mean to be mean, just would you explain to me? I know what it feels like fuckin shit when recordings doesn't go the way you would like to, but hey it's just a demo, Roadrunner Records or Century Media isn't going to release your demo, right?



well, the thing is...they _did_ want this recording to be released by a label.

and i'm not some typical lead guitarist with a huge ego...in fact, i'm really not a lead player at all and i don't think of myself as all that great of a player, from a technical standpoint. the issue is that i went to music school for 4 years and developed an ear for music and production, as well as learning about the industry and stuff like that. the rest of the band, however, are not educated musicians...just metalheads who love what they do. they are a good bit below the level of players i played with at school...but for all their faults, these are generally really nice guys and i've really enjoyed playing with them, and i think they've really enjoyed having me as part of the band.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 21, 2008)

FYP666 said:


> Umm, no offense, but i felt that you think that you deserve better than those guys.



That's because in all actuality, he probably does. If he can recognize the problems, and calls them on it and wants them to do better, than yes, he does deserve better. If he didn't have the experience, or the ear, to recognize the problems with the demo, then no, he doesn't.

At the same time, it might have been worth it to get an impartial third party's opinion. You're your own worst critic.


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## Drew (May 21, 2008)

What darren said. In the studio, you've got as many tries as you can afford to get it perfect, but whatever you walk out with is going to be there for all time. You don't cut corners, end of story.


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## darren (May 21, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You're your own worst critic.



In this case, they _weren't_ their own worst critic. They seemed incapable of listening to their work with a critical ear.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

i'm going to have to return the keys to the drummer in person, so perhaps i'll suggest that they have someone completely uninvolved give it a listen, and see what they say. the drummer is the one who i've always seemed to have the best rapport with.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 21, 2008)

darren said:


> In this case, they _weren't_ their own worst critic. They seemed incapable of listening to their work with a critical ear.



I meant Ari, not the other dudes.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 21, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> i'm going to have to return the keys to the drummer in person, so perhaps i'll suggest that they have someone completely uninvolved give it a listen, and see what they say. the drummer is the one who i've always seemed to have the best rapport with.



You also have to make sure that the guy just won't kiss your ass and say everything is fine. Most people are like that. I played a party with my old band, I butchered a song, and then the bass players amp blew up mid song, and still had people saying we were awesome. "Yes people" piss me off [/rant].


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I meant Ari, not the other dudes.



well, it's not entirely fair to say that, since i wasn't involved with these recordings. i was giving my take on the recordings as a 3rd party, basically....but also with the bias that i want to help the band and that these recordings are not likely to do that.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You also have to make sure that the guy just won't kiss your ass and say everything is fine. Most people are like that. I played a party with my old band, I butchered a song, and then the bass players amp blew up mid song, and still had people saying we were awesome. "Yes people" piss me off [/rant].



our last show, the drummer couldn't hear the rest of us well, and we kinda fell apart mid-song at one point...fortunately we recovered pretty quickly and finished the song, but people still said we were awesome. i feel you on that, 100%


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## FYP666 (May 21, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> well, the thing is...they _did_ want this recording to be released by a label.
> 
> and i'm not some typical lead guitarist with a huge ego...in fact, i'm really not a lead player at all and i don't think of myself as all that great of a player, from a technical standpoint. the issue is that i went to music school for 4 years and developed an ear for music and production, as well as learning about the industry and stuff like that. the rest of the band, however, are not educated musicians...just metalheads who love what they do. they are a good bit below the level of players i played with at school...but for all their faults, these are generally really nice guys and i've really enjoyed playing with them, and i think they've really enjoyed having me as part of the band.



Ok, i see your point. This has happened to me 3 times before this band i'm playing with now!  But thing is, out there are so many bands that are just metalheads that want to do this for fun. Me on the other hand, i love metal, but i want there to be somekind of emotion, and musicality. That's why old school death doesn't do anything for me. But the thing is, I REALLY HOPE YOU'LL FIND A BAND WHERE YOU CAN DO JUST WHAT YOU WANT FROM MUSIC!

BTW, throwin some horns


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## Naren (May 21, 2008)

FYP666 said:


> Umm, no offense, but i felt that you think that you deserve better than those guys. I mean, they IMO seemed like just happy for being able to do this demo, and then you say it will be humiliating, that your name is included to this taping. Like, you are not John Petrucci or Steve Vai, so what the fuck? I didn't mean to be mean, just would you explain to me? I know what it feels like fuckin shit when recordings doesn't go the way you would like to, but hey it's just a demo, Roadrunner Records or Century Media isn't going to release your demo, right?



He probably does deserve better than them.

I've never even heard his band before, but from hearing that they didn't record to a click, the timing is screwed up, the bass is playing incorrect notes, and the engineer working on their album doesn't even normally work on their genre, I can say that I would deserve much better than them.

It's not arrogant or whatever. It's being realistic. I don't want to play in a band with a bunch of guys who just want to have fun and maybe play a show every now and then and, because of this attitude, never practice and take a lackadaisical approach to recording.

If you don't take the demo that you're gonna send to a record label seriously, why should the record label take you seriously?


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## YYZ2112 (May 21, 2008)

Sorry to hear about this, man. Maybe it's for the better though based on some of the things you've mentioned.


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## Christopher (May 21, 2008)

All in all, to be completely honest, I think things turned out for the best. If you can get kicked out of a band for something as simple and trivial as that, you're better off without them.

As a side note, I'm 10000000% with Darren on all the points about the studio. I've never claimed to run a perfect studio but my advise would have been to run, not walk out of that studio the second they let anything happen without a click track. One of my current clients has been a massive pain in the ass because the last guy that recorded them taught them a whole lot of bad habits throughout the recording process, one of them was going click-less.

By the way, if they thought your criticism was harsh wait until they hear back from that label (assuming they ever hear back from them after delivering that out of time turd of a demo).


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## noodles (May 21, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> after listening at practice tonight, i stated that i was not happy with the way it sounded, and that i would be embarrassed to release this. i believe what i said was something to the effect of, "if you release this, people are going to listen to it and think the band sucks"....yes, a bit blunt, and perhaps a bit harsher than i'd intended. the thing is, i really think it's true, and i was only trying to be helpful. anyway, the bassist had left before we started talking about this, but the other guitarist, the drummer, and i talked about it for a while, and i'd thought we'd left it at "well, do what you want with it, but i would prefer not to have my name attached to this recording" (which i think is perfectly reasonable, seeing as i had nothing to do with it).



Honestly, you laid it out exactly the way we talk to each in Division. When we have a bad show, we say so. When our recordings are sub-par, we throw them out and redo them. A band is a collaborative effort, and their are really no room for feelings when critiquing our work. If someone cannot handle that, then I heard quilting is a fun and low stress hobby.

Fuck them. Whenever something like this happens, then be content in the fact that you hold yourself to a much higher standard, and than these guys will go nowhere when the label hears how shitty the demo is.


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## InTheRavensName (May 21, 2008)

noodles said:


> Honestly, you laid it out exactly the way we talk to each in Division. When we have a bad show, we say so. When our recordings are sub-par, we throw them out and redo them. A band is a collaborative effort, and their are really no room for feelings when critiquing our work. If someone cannot handle that, then I heard quilting is a fun and low stress hobby.
> 
> Fuck them. Whenever something like this happens, then be content in the fact that you hold yourself to a much higher standard, and than these guys will go nowhere when the label hears how shitty the demo is.



And this is why Division is a national band. Yeah, you guys are all metalheads who love what you do (appart from Dave obviously, he never looks happy onstage  but at the same time, the job is taken as seriously as any other job. If I fuck up in the kitchen, the head chef doesn't say "ah, its ok, we'll send it out anyway...", I get told to do it a-fucking-gain, and get it right. Just because playing music is fun, doesn't make it any less of a serious business. At the end of the day, they want people to buy their product, and people won't pay for something sub par.


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## deguello666 (May 21, 2008)

There seems to be one word that those other guys seem to be missing...BAND!!!!

I made a comment to our female singer last night, but before I had even finished saying "one minor little thing I've noticed"...she'd rolled her eyes ans said "WHAT NOW?"......

"you don't project yr voice enough"

well i'm fxxxxn sorry, was the reply I got lol.....what is with people? lol

If someone says something to me...I llisten, if i don't agree, I kick em in the head...but if it's a reasonable request/observation...I do everything I can to comply (within reason ofc)

But I'm sure you feel like yr better off without the arse ache, now it's come to a head tho man....good luck in finding a new venture 

and yes...why would a label that dont know you personally be inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt when you send them something shitty, when the next band in the pile at least used a click track lol


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## Nick (May 21, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You also have to make sure that the guy just won't kiss your ass and say everything is fine. Most people are like that. I played a party with my old band, I butchered a song, and then the bass players amp blew up mid song, and still had people saying we were awesome. "Yes people" piss me off [/rant].




thats not just a uk thing then


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## ibznorange (May 21, 2008)

dpm said:


> Another point to consider - if this is the reaction to well meant criticism I don't think these guys stand a chance of lasting on the road. The shit will really hit the fan when everyone is tired as fuck and crammed in a van together for a few weeks.


 Shit, cant take constructive criticism from eachother? Think to when theyre all tired, like dan says. but then on top of it, not just with eachother. what happens when the AUDIENCE starts talking shit?

Related funny story: With my last project, the guys were TOO willing to take criticism. i asked how a show went right after i left the band, and they said great! i asked about it, and they said that they took all the criticism without feeling down. Turns out they pretty much got jeered off the stage


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## gaunten (May 21, 2008)

if they go into a studio and pay that much money to do a recording, and it gets sloppy because: 
A:they don't use a click track ?!!?
B:they don't do retakes when it gets wrong (the bassists wrong notes)
C:guitars out of tune?
then they seriously need to rethink their approach on recording stuff at those costs.
the first recording I was contributing to also got pretty sloppy, because our drummer said he couldn't use a click track, and hence, he got the fuck out of time biGtime on a couple of tracks, then he says he doesn't want to release it because it's sloppy...
everything else was ok, the bass the guitar, everything, but the drums were majorly F-d up. but, this was our first recording and it cost about 100-200$
I mean if you pay 2000$+ on a recording, how can you even think about not getting everything perfect? nah, you did the right thing. I hope they get their sences together and forgive you or Whatever. but I wouldn't wanna keep playing in a band like that unless they grow up and practice more or something


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

quick little update....i just came home from speaking with the drummer. he said that while he didn't like what i said, he doesn't think that it was reasonable to kick me out because of it (and in fact, didn't even hear about that part of it until this afternoon). he says that the other guitarist took some of the things i said too personally. he understands where i was coming from, though, and he's gonna talk to the other guys. while it would be nice to stay with them, i'm not sure i would want to at this point even if they ask me to come back.

so i'm still cool with the drummer, at least...he's generally a very reasonable and understanding person.

isn't it funny that the drummer, of all people, is the smartest one in this situation? 

anyway, thanks for the support, everyone.


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## ibznorange (May 21, 2008)

smart drummer 

Well, i wouldnt go back either, but keep the drummers contacts for future reference dude


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 21, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> smart drummer
> 
> Well, i wouldnt go back either, but keep the drummers contacts for future reference dude



the drummer and i are actually planning on starting a side project thing with some of the guys from Nemecide (more to be revealed later). we've been talking about this for a couple weeks, and he says he still wants to do it.


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## Rick (May 21, 2008)

Wow, that sucks, I'm sorry to hear about that. 

They don't sound like the most wonderful people to play with.


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## ibznorange (May 21, 2008)

Sweeet


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## zimbloth (May 22, 2008)

With all due respect, all of you guys saying "fuck them they'll never be shit anyways" are a bit out of line. Ari just wanted to vent on a bogus situation, but life is a lot more complicated than that. For the most part, the dudes in his band are really good humble guys. Their drummer who's one of the coolest guys on the planet didn't even know about this situation, as he mentioned in his last post.

This was just something that got blown out of proportions that I think will work itself out. Ari's criticism was valid, but sometimes (and I've learned this the hard way too) people's criticism comes off the wrong way or harsh. Obviously the guitarist got offended by this, it happens. 

I know from being friendly with his bandmates that they all think the world of Ari and are very thankful to have him in the band. Ari's just the kind of guy who is direct and tells it like it is, sometimes that can rub people the wrong way even if it's not his fault. I think his bandmate was out of line for saying he was out of the band, but I also think this is the kind of thing if the parties involved just get together and talk over can be rectified.

In my personal opinion, no matter what Ari decides to do is cool with me, but I think these guys were sounding great - better and better at each show, and some of their newer songs were sounding kickass. Plus, the less skilled members of the band have been improving both in terms of their gear and chops. I think they just made a shitty recording and didn't like being told so bluntly that it sucked.

Ari knows how I feel we spoke about this earlier on the phone, I stand behind him. I know you guys are trying to be supportive too, but the 'fuck those guys' stuff is really not necessary or fair. It was just one guy's beef from what I understand. I think everyone encouraging him to not give the band a second chance when it was just one dude going overboard are maybe not giving the best advice. If he enjoys playing with those guys ans has been having fun as he admitted, IMO it's worth at least trying to talk it over and see what happens.

Hell, we had a band meeting last night where we all got in a pretty heated argument related to playing older songs that some of us (myself included) don't care for anymore. Some things got kind of out of control, but since we've been together longer and we're firends, we hashed things out right then and there and we continued on like it never happened after. Unfortunately Ari is new to this band, and a problem came up before a better bond had been created.

Either way, good luck bro


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## Shawn (May 22, 2008)

Sorry to hear this Ari.  If you were up in Maine, i'd jam with you.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 22, 2008)

zimbloth said:


> With all due respect, all of you guys saying "fuck them they'll never be shit anyways" are a bit out of line. Ari just wanted to vent on a bogus situation, but life is a lot more complicated than that. For the most part, the dudes in his band are really good humble guys. Their drummer who's one of the coolest guys on the planet didn't even know about this situation, as he mentioned in his last post.
> 
> This was just something that got blown out of proportions that I think will work itself out. Ari's criticism was valid, but sometimes (and I've learned this the hard way too) people's criticism comes off the wrong way or harsh. Obviously the guitarist got offended by this, it happens.
> 
> ...





thank you, nick.

i emailed an apology to the other guitarist, and he replied saying that he felt that some of what i said was a bit out of line, but he understood that i didn't mean to hurt his feelings as much as i apparently did, and that he's willing to give me a second chance....and like i said earlier, the drummer says he's still cool with me as well.

now...i haven't heard from the bassist since this morning. i know that he tends to be very stubborn, and isn't the best at talking to people. i'm hoping that he and i can work things out, and at the very least be on decent terms with each other.


i'm now in a little bit of a difficult position, though. if they ask me back, i'm torn about what to do. like i said, these are good guys, and while they're not the best players, i've had a lot of fun playing with them...but there are a number of professionalism issues that i think really need to be worked on if i'm going to rejoin. i don't want to screw them over, but i also don't want them to screw themselves over with a (very) sub-par recording. i'm not sure yet what i'm going to do, i need to think about it.


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## Zepp88 (May 22, 2008)

I hate to say it Ari but you may be wasting your time dealing with it.


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 22, 2008)

Ok, here's how to go about it:

1) Bring the issues up, put a no offense disclaimer in front of it
2) With each bad point raise a positive one, ie, how much things have improved, everyone is playing better
3) Point out that it's not the music that is the problem, rather that they are selling themselves short and are a better band than what the recording reflects. Bring the studio engineer into it, deflect a lot of blame onto him for not doing his job properly. 
4) Just point out that if they want that demo, then fine, but not to send it to record labels and use it as a learning process, analyze what went wrong. Studios and recording are harsh, you lose confidence at times, you can be beat down and realise you have a lot to work on
5) See if they'll agree to stop throwing money into it, leave it, and then concentrate on playing, writing a bunch of new even more kick ass songs, and then going into record with them. Get the drummer to practicew with a click for a month or 3 before as well, just so he's used to it.

Basically it's going to involve compromise on both parts, but I think it's more them possibly thinking that you don't like the music on the demo, whereas you need to point out that it's the execution, not content, that is flawed and not up to the standard of releasing it.


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## auxioluck (May 22, 2008)

I agree, but this also takes commitment on eveyone's part. If the guitar player and drummer are not willing to work on their timing and chops, then what's the point of recording to a click again? THEY need to contribute something too, not just go, "Okay, we'll give you a second chance." They need to look at the criticism and see that it's partly their fault too for having a bad recording. I usually take good recordings, but if I fuck something up, then hell yeah I will own up to it.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 22, 2008)

zimbloth said:


> stuff





I wouldn't want to work with someone who would let something so blatantly wrong (out of time drums, rhythm guitar, bad bass notes) be recorded, and then sent out to a label. IMO if all that is true, and it's obvious when you listen to the recording, then I wouldn't want my name on it, and I wouldn't want to work with those musicians.


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## zimbloth (May 23, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I wouldn't want to work with someone who would let something so blatantly wrong (out of time drums, rhythm guitar, bad bass notes) be recorded, and then sent out to a label. IMO if all that is true, and it's obvious when you listen to the recording, then I wouldn't want my name on it, and I wouldn't want to work with those musicians.



If you saw them live you'd think differently. They just need to be more professional about certain things, such as the recording quality and not overreacting.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 23, 2008)

yeah, that's the thing....the recordings are not a fair representation of their abilities. while it's true that none of them are great players, these recordings make them sound worse than they are.


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## Zepp88 (May 23, 2008)

Just join me and Nates grindcore project Semenal Asphyxiation than we dreamt up the other night


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 23, 2008)

Zepp88 said:


> Just join me and Nates grindcore project Semenal Asphyxiation than we dreamt up the other night



generally speaking, i'm not into grind


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## Zepp88 (May 23, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> generally speaking, i'm not into grind



 Neither am I, it's a joke.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 23, 2008)

this is totally unrelated, but here's a pic i think you'll appreciate, mike....this is from an RVG show in 2006:


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## Zepp88 (May 23, 2008)

Hey nice shirt!


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 23, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> yeah, that's the thing....the recordings are not a fair representation of their abilities. while it's true that none of them are great players, these recordings make them sound worse than they are.



And that's precisely why I WOULDN'T want to work with them. If they're willing to let shit slide like that in the studio, that's worse than playing with people who gave it their best shot. I'd rather work with people who were struggling with their abilities and tried their best, rather then "fuck it, that's good enough".


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 23, 2008)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> yeah, that's the thing....the recordings are not a fair representation of their abilities. while it's true that none of them are great players, these recordings make them sound worse than they are.


I'd tell them that the recordings don't reflect their playing ability, and that you think they could do so much better. Make it exciting along the lines of that they can record a kick ass demo, and chalk this one up to experience. Use the demo to get shows booked etc, and for friends instead.


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 26, 2008)

I hung out with the drummer on Saturday when we were jamming with Nick and Buddy from Nemecide (and a couple other friends of mine), and he told me that he wasn't sure if they were gonna be doing this show the band had scheduled for the next day, because the guitarist and bassist both had things come up....plus, he said he wasn't really feeling the "band spirit" at the moment.

I spoke to him again yesterday before the show, and he confirmed that the band would not be playing. I decided to go to the show anyway, since it was free, and I was interested in seeing some of the other bands there. My friend Jeremy, who runs the record label Oak Knoll Productions, runs a merch table selling CDs at these show (it was a "Metal Thursday" show in Worcester, MA...yes, "Metal Thursday" on a Sunday). He'd told me that if I went to the show and helped him out, he'd hook me up with some free CDs and stuff.

So, I arrived at the venue, went inside, and told Jeremy about how the band had canceled...he said, "does [the promoter] know that?" "That's a good question, I don't know...I'll go check." I spoke to the promoter and asked if he'd heard from the other Summoning Hate guys (he hadn't), and told him what I'd been told by the drummer. He was a bit bothered by this, because two other bands had already canceled and another hadn't shown up yet, who was supposed to be there two hours earlier. I gave him the drummer's number to try to call him...he couldn't get through to him then, and of course was frustrated, saying this isn't like them at all. 

I gave him a little bit of a description of the drama from last week, basically just mentioning that I was in a position where I wasn't 100% sure if I was in the band or not (having not heard from the bassist recently).

The promoter got a call from the bassist a little while later, and he then came up to me and said that the bassist had mentioned me not being in the band, so I started to give a little bit more detailed of an explanation of the situation. I told him, "the band did some recordings before I was involved..." The sentence was finished by the promoter, "...and they sound like shit. I've heard the stuff on MySpace, and it's really not very good. It's not that the material is bad, but the recording just doesn't do justice to how the songs sound live."

I have been proven right, by exactly the type of person who the band would be dealing with when they're shopping the demo around  Now, if only people would actually come out and tell them this stuff....


Also, while I was at the show, I ran into my friend Dan, the main composer/songwriter for MA/NH-based death/doom metal band Shroud of Bereavement. They're on Oak Knoll Productions, and a couple years ago, they did a split EP with the band Withersoul, who Zepp88 recently started playing guitar for. He told me how they're looking for a guitarist and a drummer, and I should come jam with them sometime. I actually went to jam with them in November of 2005, when they were looking for a 3rd guitarist, but they ended up not going with a 3rd right away (and then when they did, I think part of the reason for picking someone else was that I didn't have transportation and was in school).

I was also introduced to their new singer, who I hadn't met personally before. She seemed pretty cool, and also said I should come try out. I think I'm going to try out sometime this week or next (I need to call Dan). Only thing is, they practice about 45 miles north of Boston, which is kind of a pain in the ass for me currently, since I live in the southwestern part of Boston. I have to move in September, though, and apparently Dan has an available room in his house in Haverhill, MA, with a rather low rent...thing is, I need to be reasonably close to Boston for work, and I haven't been to this house before, so I don't know what the area is like.

I definitely have some things to think about, though.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 26, 2008)




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## FoxZero (May 30, 2008)

It sounds like things are brightening up a bit, but I gotta say, once I started getting cut throat with my band we started moving along. Sure some couldn't take it, and they moved on, and those who stayed are harsher than me! And they look to me as a leader so I get stuck doing the kicking, so I look harsh, but it gets done. It's particularly hard for us because we are still in high school and our kind is generally lazy and our bands don't get anywhere, but we refuse to settle for that and do everything we can just short of failing school.

Can't blame you for not wanting your name on the demo. I'd do the same thing. Hell when I get I demo done and I have to record someone else's part, I take the credit because I put the effort out, and why deceive people?

Also this reminds me of when I recorded an old school thrash band recently. They had roughly 3 and a half hours to record a song. They expected it to be easy and they said they would listen to me,how wrong and uncooperative they were. They wanted to record guitars forst, and they refused to use a click track!! We didn't even get to the drums don't worry. I introduced them to double tracking the guitars, and they just couldn't play spot on enough, yet they settled on their sloppiness. They also wanted to finish writing that song in the short period of time. They got two guitar tracks done, one track for each guitarists on the left side, I simply copy and pasted to the other side and decided I might as well go mono.

I spent a couple hours mixing the disater and even posted it on here, where it was met with some pretty brutal criques on their part. And the funniest part was, they redid the whole song and finished recording it at another studio that they said they liked way better, and it sounded like fucking donkey farts. They messaged me saying 'no offense, but you weren't working out, we didn't get that much done with you and the time had, and it wasn't fun, we had a blast at this new place." I simply replied, "I refuse to comment on your recording and no offense taken, but don't come back unless you want a real recording." They understood what I said, but they were satisfied with the shit recording! If I were them I'd be embarrassed. I'm on very good terms with them and they always respect and even ask for my advice, but they never take saying "well this band did that and I like how that sounds," I I simply reply "yeah back in 1985 that would work, but even the standards for garage recordings today are far beyond that." I just can't take them seriously. But hell I asked them to play a show with me coming up in a few weeks, and I gotta say they've already pissed me off with they're ego.

Sorry to rant there, and I know my situation is quite different, but I do feel ya. I can't stand it when bandmates get emotional like that. The guys at the music bid have no emotions towards your music. They're indifferent to everyone and they'll only deal with professionals. If that can't through they're heads and they are unable to think past their emotions, sadly they won't get anywhere. It should be fun yes, but I gotta say, I never really have fun in the studio, be it my own, but it's gotta be done right.


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