# An open letter to Israel



## 7 Dying Trees (Jan 9, 2009)

Oh Israel, how can you justify:

1) Shelling a UN aid convoy during a ceasefire
2) Moving 110 palestinian civilians into a house, then shelling it killing 30
3) Using a tank to shell a UN school
4) Refusing to accept a UN resolution calling for an immediate ceasefire.

As for the people that live there, none of you that stand by and let this happen as part of israel deserve to live there, you do not deserve to stand on ground forcibly taken from others to give to you in the wake of the second world war, none of deserve to walk the soil of your holy land after you have soaked it in that much blood.

Don't you remember being persecuted? Don't you remember a country senselessly trying to systematically wipe you out? Don't you remember innocent women and children being incinerated and gassed in concentration camps? Camps that are effectively areas of land cut off from the rest? Where the captors control the flow of food to the captees? Much like you are doing in Gaza?

Don't forget, you were forcibly put on land where they lived, you allowed settlers to enroach on more land, you've been aggressive to everyone around you under the name of your god, you've withheld basic human neceseties from a race you regard as inferior (much as hitler regarded the jews, invalids and homosexuals), you have shelled them accepting a massively skewed civilian to combatants killed ratio where you are just killing civilians like roaches that you so despise.

All of you are covered in blood. Do you really think that whatever god you worship believes in you taking the lives of his creations solely because you believe he is on your side?

Remember, "Got ist mit uns" was inscribed on every nazi soldiers uniform, they believed that too.

And congratulations with creating another generation of people who will remember tanks killing their parents, friends, family for no good reason other than you wanting to attack a few militants. They will hate you even more now, just as everyone else will slowly start to see you for what you really are. An aggressive, militant death hungry beast, worshipping at the alter of war.


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## loktide (Jan 9, 2009)

i share your feelings on the subject


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## silentrage (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Oh Israel, how can you justify:
> 
> 1) Shelling a UN aid convoy during a ceasefire
> 2) Moving 110 palestinian civilians into a house, then shelling it killing 30
> ...



Say hello to my little friend, the no-fly list.


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## ohio_eric (Jan 9, 2009)

James nailed it.


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## silentrage (Jan 9, 2009)

UN Report Details Israeli Round up and Bombing of Civilians

Yay, more goodie.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Jan 9, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Say hello to my little friend, the no-fly list.


Oh well


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## Mr. S (Jan 9, 2009)

well said James


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

quick question, its hard to tell when you live in a country that invades another country, what the rest of the world thinks. I dont really think isreal is doing the right thing here either, but from non american standpoints, is this the same way you looked at america invading iraq? i'm just curious


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> quick question, its hard to tell when you live in a country that invades another country, what the rest of the world thinks. I dont really think isreal is doing the right thing here either, but from non american standpoints, is this the same way you looked at america invading iraq? i'm just curious



Pretty much.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

^but your also touchy to these situations  just messing with ya.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> ^but your also touchy to these situations  just messing with ya.



SILENCE!!!

I keel you!!!


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## kmanick (Jan 9, 2009)

loktide said:


> i share your feelings on the subject


 
+1 here


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 10, 2009)




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## Rick (Jan 10, 2009)

Damn. 

Go James.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 10, 2009)

Although its true, there are many Israeli's who probably dont support the war/attacks on Palestine, like in the US.


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## S-O (Jan 10, 2009)

The world needs a time out.

I command everyone masturbate to orgasm, in order to relieve stress. Lets all come back tomorrow with our heads on right after fapping/squelching one out.

Honestly, I can not think of a 'make everyone happy' solution, but I wish the world would be smart enough to calm the fuck down. There are plenty of people to blame, but the fault lies on everyone, so we ought to just worry about the now and the future, rather than who to hang at the next War crime trials. Next, I hope we as a race can evolve beyond religion, or atleast move towards a self religion, not ones that cause mass hysteria and mob mentalities. I have nothing against religion, it just seems religion is against the world.

Not that religion is even at fault, as mentioned above, fuck blame. I just am pissed at the world, including myself, that we have been taking this all on our asses, all the corrupt police shootings, all the evil that surrounds us is suffocating our love.


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## chimp_spanner (Jan 10, 2009)

S-O said:


> There are plenty of people to blame, but the fault lies on everyone,



Very true. I find it remarkable that a news station can report on kids dying of starvation, families being blown up, and shit knows what else and then move on to the days sports headlines.

It's like we've been conditioned to think that this shit 'just happens' to some people, and life has to go on.

It's a crime. A crime against humanity, by humanity, that we think it's normal for this stuff to happen and not care about it.

People are people. We should all care.

I know the world doesn't, and probably couldn't function like that (with the current model of society and industry and blah blah) but it still pisses me off.


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## Cancer (Jan 10, 2009)

chimp_spanner said:


> It's a crime. A crime against humanity, by humanity, that we think it's normal for this stuff to happen and not care about it.
> 
> People are people. We should all care.




IMO, it's not that we don't care, it's just we don't know what to do about it. Taking the present subject into account, as a citizen living, literally, half way around the world, what are my options on the "do something" list?

You realize as little as 50 years ago, the attacks in Gaza may have happened and we may not have known about for days, weeks, or months, if at all. I'm not using this an excuse, I'm asking seriously, as a species, what are our options in resolving this issue?


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

^word


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> quick question, its hard to tell when you live in a country that invades another country, what the rest of the world thinks. I dont really think isreal is doing the right thing here either, but from non american standpoints, is this the same way you looked at america invading iraq? i'm just curious



It is exactly the same way I feel about the Iraq thing.  Honestly I think that Israel is just another way that America can try to further its "diplomacy" in the middle east. I thought the age of imperialism was dead but apparently the US didn't get the memo.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

^so your blaming america for isreal's current actions? that doesnt make much sense


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

Not blaming them for what they are doing but we aren't really putting our foot down to stop them either.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 10, 2009)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> It is exactly the same way I feel about the Iraq thing.  Honestly I think that Israel is just another way that America can try to further its "diplomacy" in the middle east. I thought the age of imperialism was dead but apparently the US didn't get the memo.



I just thought this whole thing was Israel being a little bitch cause they know *whatever* they do, short of genocide, biological warfare, or nukes, America will back them up.


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

Yeah I was trying to say that.  thank you.


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2009)

I agree with a lot of the points raised in this thread. However I'd like to see what some Israeli citizens have to say on the matter, as I get the impression the media coverage of this conflict is pretty one sided. Not saying the atrocities aren't true, but I have a feeling Hamas is not innocent here either.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> I just thought this whole thing was Israel being a little bitch cause they know *whatever* they do, short of genocide, biological warfare, or nukes, America will back them up.



i hear that, but in the same sense, theres not shit we could actually do about it. the economy is fucked up and we are streched this in the military front.

it a perfect world mr.happy would wave his magic wand and protect everyone, but at some point countrys are going to have to deal with some things themselves


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> i hear that, but in the same sense, theres not shit we could actually do about it. the economy is fucked up and we are streched this in the military front.
> 
> it a perfect world mr.happy would wave his magic wand and protect everyone, but at some point countrys are going to have to deal with some things themselves



We should haven't to protect them in the first place. It is kind of our fault (along with the rest of the countries involved in the UN after WWII) that they are there in the first place.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

and for the record, isreal might be doing the wrong thing here, but hamas arnt boyscouts. across the world all you see is pro hamas protests which i think is fucking horseshit to support a know terrorist group, i can understand anti israel in this situation or even anti conflict, but DEFINATLY not PRO hamas


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> We should haven't to protect them in the first place. It is kind of our fault (along with the rest of the countries involved in the UN after WWII) that they are there in the first place.



true, but for everyone saying that we should grow up and look to the future, there sure seemes to be a lot of dragging up the past.

who cares at this point who did what and why, we need a fix not based on the past but the future


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

I totally agree I just think the world decides to give Israel the free pass because of it. What happened to those people was atrocious but that is also the past. We can't keep pitying it and letting them get away with things like this because if it.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> i hear that, but in the same sense, theres not shit we could actually do about it. the economy is fucked up and we are streched this in the military front.



There's plenty of shit america can do about it. 
For example:
1) stop giving israel guns
2) stop giving israel airfcraft
3) threaten to give them no more foriegn aid
4) tell them to FOAD. 

Theres a number of possibilities.


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## arktan (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> I agree with a lot of the points raised in this thread. However I'd like to see what some Israeli citizens have to say on the matter, as I get the impression the media coverage of this conflict is pretty one sided. Not saying the atrocities aren't true, but I have a feeling Hamas is not innocent here either.



3 dead civilians, 10 dead soldiers, 39 wounded civilians and 110 wounded soldiers.

I took it from here: 2008&#226;&#8364;&#8220;2009 Israel&#226;&#8364;&#8220;Gaza conflict - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> and for the record, isreal might be doing the wrong thing here, but hamas arnt boyscouts. across the world all you see is pro hamas protests which i think is fucking horseshit to support a know terrorist group, i can understand anti israel in this situation or even anti conflict, but DEFINATLY not PRO hamas



I completely agree with you here.


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## Rick (Jan 10, 2009)

I assume FOAD is Fuck Off And Die?


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> I assume FOAD is Fuck Off And Die?



It took me a minute to get that too. But I ed when I realized what it meant.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 10, 2009)

Rick said:


> I assume FOAD is Fuck Off And Die?



Good call


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> There's plenty of shit america can do about it.
> For example:
> 1) stop giving israel guns
> 2) stop giving israel airfcraft
> ...



but once again, it wouldnt be a great idea to abandon one of the few countrys that doesnt hate us to our very core like apperently most countrys to


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## S-O (Jan 10, 2009)

It seems we have made allies with all the wrong people in ther world lately. I'd rather be buddies with Saudi Arabia and (what was once) Palestine. America has done some fucked up things and gone to far out of our way to try and be helpful, as we see it, and have made more enemies in the process.

Judaism and Islam don't really get along well, but they are no means oil and water. Same 
'getting along with' Christianity. Baghdad, it's nickname being 'city of peace' was once a haven for it's tolerance of judaism and it's people.

Also, part of my family lies in th south, so while I can not say their views are the sole represention of any part of the US, they have some fucked up ideas of what Islam is, and it's teachings. Some went so far as to say the Quran says to kill all heathens, and even if it did, I can not see how that would be any different than some things in the Bible, new and old testament. Both the Bible and Quran have valueable teachings that transcend religion and apply to life in general, even as a hard headed atheist I can see this.

The entire ordeal just pisses me off.


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## silentrage (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> and for the record, isreal might be doing the wrong thing here, but hamas arnt boyscouts. across the world all you see is pro hamas protests which i think is fucking horseshit to support a know terrorist group, i can understand anti israel in this situation or even anti conflict, but DEFINATLY not PRO hamas



But do you ever wonder if Hamas would even exist without the establishment of Israel such as it is?


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

so once again look at the past? because that isnt helping shit, its just pissing everyone off when they look at the list of shit that they have done to each other. screw why it is the way it is, all you can do is move foward and live peacefully. One side or the other needs to take the que and offer negoation and peace.

if all we look at is the past, then i guess i should hate southern states of America because they fought us yankees in the civil war too? where does it end


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## Metal Ken (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> but once again, it wouldnt be a great idea to abandon one of the few countrys that doesnt hate us to our very core like apperently most countrys to



Yeah, they dont hate us cause america helped create them in 1947, without the consent of any of the areas where they captured land from. I could really care less about israel's opinion if america decided to stop supporting thme, cause it would, in short, mean that all the other arab countries would have a hell of a lot less reason to hate us for supplying weapons and aid to the country they all mutually hate.


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## silentrage (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> so once again look at the past? because that isnt helping shit, its just pissing everyone off when they look at the list of shit that they have done to each other. screw why it is the way it is, all you can do is move foward and live peacefully. One side or the other needs to take the que and offer negoation and peace.
> 
> if all we look at is the past, then i guess i should hate southern states of America because they fought us yankees in the civil war too? where does it end



No dude, you look to the past to see that you actually need to negotiate with these terrorists. If most people don't know anything about how this conflict got started and they just watch fox news all day then it's no surprise that they think all Arabs are born with dynamites strapped to them and if you try to negotiate with them they spontaneously combust.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

^hey, our country has been pissed off before but nobody over here is going to the extremes that some of the middle east countrys go do. 
besides, i'm not even sure what your gettin at with that post? i said they need to negoiate, so you suggest that the rehash all the horrible shit they have done to each other over time? they would just look at each other and call each other a son of a bitch and go back to war, pretty much like they are now.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> Yeah, they dont hate us cause america helped create them in 1947, without the consent of any of the areas where they captured land from.


well, there aint much we can do about that now. if we stopped supporting isreal right now, there would still be a shit ton of nut jobs wantin to bomb us reguardless


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## Carrion (Jan 10, 2009)

IDF's explanation of UN convoy:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1231424908570&pagename=JPost&#37;2FJPArticle/ShowFull

Un School:

Witnesses: Hamas fired from school | Confronting Hamas | Jerusalem Post

Resolution:

Israel rejects UN truce resolution, says Gaza operation to continue - Haaretz - Israel News

Some quotes from the above link:
"The government said it would not accept any cease-fire and that the IDF would not withdraw from Gaza until the establishment of a mechanism that would ensure a halt to weapons-smuggling from Egypt into the Hamas-ruled territory. "

"The firing of rockets this morning only goes to show that the UN decision is unworkable and will not be adhered to by the murderous Palestinian organizations," he said in a statement. 


Hamas is an organization that maintains the position for the abolition of Israel. They are willing to fight forever and employ a propaganda system to encourage this idea.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,553724,00.html


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> and for the record, isreal might be doing the wrong thing here, but hamas arnt boyscouts. across the world all you see is pro hamas protests which i think is fucking horseshit to support a know terrorist group, i can understand anti israel in this situation or even anti conflict, but DEFINATLY not PRO hamas



What pro-Hamas protests? I've only seen anti-war/pro-Palestinian liberation protests. Maybe I missed some. Other than that I agree with you here.



Metal Ken said:


> There's plenty of shit america can do about it.
> For example:
> 1) stop giving israel guns
> 2) stop giving israel airfcraft
> ...



Bam. 



7 Strings of Hate said:


> ^hey, our country has been pissed off before but nobody over here is going to the extremes that some of the middle east countrys go do.
> besides, i'm not even sure what your gettin at with that post? i said they need to negoiate, so you suggest that the rehash all the horrible shit they have done to each other over time? they would just look at each other and call each other a son of a bitch and go back to war, pretty much like they are now.



Hmmm... Korea? Vietnam? Iraq? Afghanistan? Iraq again? Looks like you really do.

You guys have done so much worse to the people in the Middle East than they have to you.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> What pro-Hamas protests? I've only seen anti-war/pro-Palestinian liberation protests. Maybe I missed some. Other than that I agree with you here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i'v litterally seen atleast a dozen "pro-hamas" protests around the world on the news, holding pro hamas signs,

as for the last part of the quote, what the fuck are we supposed to do about that now, once again, looking to the past just relists the shit that EVERYONE has done to each other. you and the rest of the world needs to realize that what ever the fuck happend in the past doesnt matter now because its not the past, it the present man


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> as for the last part of the quote, what the fuck are we supposed to do about that now, once again, looking to the past just relists the shit that EVERYONE has done to each other. you and the rest of the world needs to realize that what ever the fuck happend in the past doesnt matter now because its not the past, it the present man



I was merely responding to your point, proving how ill conceived it was.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

what is ill concieved?? that i said that both sides should man up and quit fighting? that its not a good idea for america to make enemys of the few allies it has? that looking to the past solves so much stuff??which part?

you just argue to argue sometimes i think dude


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> what is ill concieved?? that i said that both sides should man up and quit fighting? that its not a good idea for america to make enemys of the few allies it has? that looking to the past solves so much stuff??which part?
> 
> you just argue to argue sometimes i think dude



No. I don't. And in case you didn't notice, I agreed with the other post by you that I quoted. 


Perhaps I should have edited your post down to what I was really getting at, so as to get rid of any chance of confusion?



7 Strings of Hate said:


> ^hey, our country has been pissed off before but nobody over here is going to the extremes that some of the middle east countrys go do.


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2009)

Carrion said:


> IDF's explanation of UN convoy:
> 
> IDF: Army didn't fire on UN truck driver | Confronting Hamas | Jerusalem Post
> 
> ...



Interesting links. 

Sooner or later Israel _will _fall and the entire region will be under the control of extremist theocracies. I just wonder if having no progressive allies in the area is in our best interests. I am skeptical that kicking out all the US military and Jews from the Middle East is really going to solve all the problems. Maybe it's 'just' in the short-term, but I just think we should be careful what we wish for.

I'm all for the Israeli military being held accountable for their atrocities, but I'm not sure if everyone got their way that the alternative would be so great. Israel is always on the cutting edge of science, medicine, technology, etc. They have legitimate democracy, women and children actually have rights and aren't hanged for no apparent reason like in Iran and Syria. Maybe I'm ignorant, but do we really want no assholes like Israel's military around to at least keep others somewhat in check? Like Hussein did sort of?

I just somehow doubt that once everyone gets their way and Israel is no more, that they'll all start becoming progressive nations who don't hang teens for being gay, execute teenage girls for being raped, and generally base their entire policies on corrupt religious rubbish instead of getting with the times. Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know. 

Personally I'd prefer if the whole region would just disappear so I could find something that actually has a chance of ever changing to give a shit about.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> Interesting links.
> 
> Sooner or later Israel _will _fall and the entire region will be under the control of extremist theocracies. I just wonder if having no progressive allies in the area is in our best interests. I am skeptical that kicking out all the US military and Jews from the Middle East is really going to solve all the problems. Maybe it's 'just' in the short-term, but I just think we should be careful what we wish for.
> 
> ...



fucking amen nick


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## Drew (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> but once again, it wouldnt be a great idea to abandon one of the few countrys that doesnt hate us to our very core like apperently most countrys to



I don't care how hard up for allies we get - aligning ourself with a country who thinks it's a good idea to indiscriminately shell civilians just doesn't seem like something the America I believe in would do.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> No. I don't. And in case you didn't notice, I agreed with the other post by you that I quoted.
> 
> 
> Perhaps I should have edited your post down to what I was really getting at, so as to get rid of any chance of confusion?



i was responding to the guy that said 


silentrage said:


> No dude, you look to the past to see that you actually need to negotiate with these terrorists. If most people don't know anything about how this conflict got started and they just watch fox news all day then it's no surprise that they think all Arabs are born with dynamites strapped to them and if you try to negotiate with them they spontaneously combust.



to imply that america gets mad, but no, you DONT see them strapping dynamite to themselves, a few indifiduals ARE nuts here, but i was just pointing out that there really isnt much justification for some of the extremist ideas they have

and sorry, didnt mean to come off as a dick(even though i actually am)


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

Drew said:


> I don't care how hard up for allies we get - aligning ourself with a country who thinks it's a good idea to indiscriminately shell civilians just doesn't seem like something the America I believe in would do.



well, this is the real world and in the real world you unfourtunalty have to look at both sides and see that both are doing that to each other and we need all the allies we can get.
i'm for keeping quality allies, but with this high and mighty attutiude all the time, we might end up by ourselves with just a couple allies and a whole worldfull of countrys that hate us but are also shitty themselves


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> i was responding to the guy that said
> 
> 
> to imply that america gets mad, but no, you DONT see them strapping dynamite to themselves, a few indifiduals ARE nuts here, but i was just pointing out that there really isnt much justification for some of the extremist ideas they have
> ...



It's cool. 

But in all seriousness it's not hard to understand how people in Iraq, Afghanistan (but not the fucking Taliban ) and Palestine feel towards America and their Israeli buddies. Same goes to the UK. If you fuck over an entire region and play it like a game then eventually there comes a time when people get so pissed that they let fundis/extremists get in control. Because they're the ones saying they can get shit done. (Read: Hitler)



7 Strings of Hate said:


> well, this is the real world and in the real world you unfourtunalty have to look at both sides and see that both are doing that to each other and we need all the allies we can get.
> i'm for keeping quality allies, but with this high and mighty attutiude all the time, we might end up by ourselves with just a couple allies and a whole worldfull of countrys that hate us but are also shitty themselves



Well maybe if you went after "friends" rather than "allies" then you wouldn't be in such a position? Countries hate America because of the way they behave. NOT because they _are_ America.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> It's cool.
> 
> But in all seriousness it's not hard to understand how people in Iraq, Afghanistan (but not the fucking Taliban ) and Palestine feel towards America and their Israeli buddies. Same goes to the UK. If you fuck over an entire region and play it like a game then eventually there comes a time when people get so pissed that they let fundis get in control.



agreed


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> agreed



Sorry, I ninja-edited my post. 

I didn't think anyone would reply so fast.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Well maybe if you went after "friends" rather than "allies" then you wouldn't be in such a position? Countries hate America because of the way they behave. NOT because they _are_ America.



hey, tell that one to the administration, anyone can come to my place for a beer 

i personally feel that if the people who didnt like us would really look at our news channels they would see that the majority of people dont want any conflicts, want to be friends, dont and didnt support our outgoing administrations tactics and have voted in someone who seems like they are going to reflect our views of this. So its a step in the right direction, and i feel for the extremists to not see this and chill out on us, that they just really dont want to quit fighting. war is a money maker to some, and some people are nuts and just dont care how you change


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> hey, tell that one to the administration, anyone can come to my place for a beer
> 
> i personally feel that if the people who didnt like us would really look at our news channels they would see that the majority of people dont want any conflicts, want to be friends, dont and didnt support our outgoing administrations tactics and have voted in someone who seems like they are going to reflect our views of this. So its a step in the right direction, and i feel for the extremists to not see this and chill out on us, that they just really dont want to quit fighting. war is a money maker to some, and some people are nuts and just dont care how you change



Great post. The only thing is that extremists on both sides need to be seriously fucked. I'm talking ocular penetration. That's the only way they're going to be removed in the current climate. Extremists come about in times of crisis and economic downturn. That's (probably) why Quatar, the United Arab Emirates and Kuwait aren't producing nutjobs trying to blow us all up. So, short of alleviating poor economic performance and education they're not really going to go away... :/

Best to not give them a reason to hate you.


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## silentrage (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> Interesting links.
> 
> Sooner or later Israel _will _fall and the entire region will be under the control of extremist theocracies. I just wonder if having no progressive allies in the area is in our best interests. I am skeptical that kicking out all the US military and Jews from the Middle East is really going to solve all the problems. Maybe it's 'just' in the short-term, but I just think we should be careful what we wish for.
> 
> ...



Erm... you killed Saddam for keeping the region in check but brutally oppressing certain groups of people, now you want to let Israel do what it wants because... it keeps the region in check and brutally oppresses certain groups of people.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Erm... you killed Saddam for keeping the region in check but brutally oppressing certain groups of people, now you want to let Israel do what it wants because... it keeps the region in check and brutally oppresses certain groups of people.



Ding ding ding!!! We have a WINNAH!!!


----------



## CC323 (Jan 10, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Erm... you killed Saddam for keeping the region in check but brutally oppressing certain groups of people, now you want to let Israel do what it wants because... it keeps the region in check and brutally oppresses certain groups of people.



I've got to disagree. We killed Saddam 'cause the Bushes lost complete political control of him and wanted retribution. The brutally oppressing people was just a bonus...

God I hate politicians...


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

you guys keep saying YOU, perhapse try saying KING BUSH? because thats the asshole and his cronies who did that, with virtually no say so from us


----------



## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Erm... you killed Saddam for keeping the region in check but brutally oppressing certain groups of people, now you want to let Israel do what it wants because... it keeps the region in check and brutally oppresses certain groups of people.



Oh, *I* did that? Really now. That's funny I could swear I opposed the war from day one. Kindly fuck off.


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> Oh, *I* did that? Really now. That's funny I could swear I opposed the war from day one. Kindly fuck off.



Nick, chill the fuck out. "You" obviously meant "America (as in establishment)". Not _you_ specifically. FFS...


----------



## silentrage (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> Oh, *I* did that? Really now. That's funny I could swear I opposed the war from day one. Kindly fuck off.


Lol, I knew I forgot a line somewhere.

Edit: You not as in you personally but the fucktards in charge of your country. 

Calm down man, smoke a joint, chill out, fuck...


----------



## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2009)

I've been chilled all along. I really could care less about Israel, if anyone it's you who is getting crazed about this topic. 

The point is, as we demonstrated in Iraq, sometimes doing the morally right thing to help an 'oppressed' group of people is not always in our best interest.


----------



## silentrage (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> I've been chilled all along. I really could care less about Israel, if anyone it's you who is getting crazed about this topic.
> 
> The point is, as we demonstrated in Iraq, sometimes doing the morally right thing to help an 'oppressed' group of people is not always in our best interest.



Well whatever, I'm not THAT worked up about this, I just like a good opportunity to poke fun at the bush admin's ungodly hypocrasies.
I know there are good people south of the fence, I'm not stupid. 

No harm intended bro, but I think it's best I stop replying to this thread.


----------



## daemon barbeque (Jan 10, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> I've been chilled all along. I really could care less about Israel, if anyone it's you who is getting crazed about this topic.
> 
> The point is, as we demonstrated in Iraq, sometimes doing the morally right thing to help an 'oppressed' group of people is not always in our best interest.



Man ,I really hate to say this but that's not true at all.
If America ever wants to help opressed people ,why not begin with your own Indian natives? Or what about Saudi Arabia and all those Emirates. They do the same ,they behead people ,they do not have democracy ,so why not bring them democracy? Because it's not about freedom and democracy ,it's about power ,$ ,oil. Anything else is not important.

Israel is doing this shit since the end of the 40's ,and they got over 1 000 000 000 $ from America to keep this shit running. again it's 1 000 000 000 $...

If America really wants to help opressed people ,why not freeing people from Gazza? Why not giving them their rights back ,their properties ,or at least the price of th properties?...


----------



## Kakaka (Jan 10, 2009)

Most of the arab world is islamic, if not all of it, and most islamic countries want the end of Israel, while Israel wants the land alone.
There's no possible peace talk between Israel and the arab world. One of them will have to lose.

Contrary to what zimbloth said, agreeing with the Bible, in the book of the Revelation, I say that Israel will never fall. And we don't have to argue about it, just sit and watch.

But this is the idea: to have a great worldwide animosity against Israel.
Though Hamas is crazy and terrorist, people still sympathize with the terror supporting arab populations, like some palestinian civilians, mostly from the Gaza strip.

Human made peace between Israel and the arab world is an illusion, that is, a lie. And this 242 resolution from UN is very laughable for me, since the defeating countries lost their territories to Israel after starting an attack and having been ferociously counter-attacked by the israeli forces.


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

Kakaka said:


> Most of the arab world is islamic, if not all of it, and most islamic countries want the end of Israel, while Israel wants the land alone.
> There's no possible peace talk between Israel and the arab world. One of them will have to lose.



Not technically true. There are many different religions in the Middle East. About 3-10&#37; of most Middle Eastern countries are Christian/Jewish/other...

Most Arab states want an end to aggression perpetrated by a country that was created illegally at the loss of a nation and the oppression of those who lived their previously.

It is doubtful whether or not Israel will fall because I believe that they are too powerful militarily at this stage. Although, the Lebanese tore them a new one 3 years ago. Looks like we'll just have to wait and see how this sorry state of affairs turns out.


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## Kakaka (Jan 10, 2009)

Not really wanting to argue, but 90-97% is a big majority, like I stated. And I really said that based on past attacks and present movements within those countries, these latest events have set the arab opinion on fire, even here in Brazil we can see lots of animosity against Israel and public arab protest.
Right outside of one of São Paulo's subway central stations you can read in a wall: "Intifada já, morte ao sionismo!", Intifade(?) now, death to zionism!

Those territorries were always conquered through war in the past. I can't see it stopping now or in any near future.

Why can those people conquer their land through war and Israel can't, even if it were in a counter-attack (6 Days War mainly)?


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

Kakaka said:


> Not really wanting to argue, but 90-97% is a big majority, like I stated. And I really said that based on past attacks and present movements within those countries, these latest events have set the arab opinion on fire, even here in Brazil we can see lots of animosity against Israel and public arab protest.
> Right outside of one of São Paulo's subway central stations you can read in a wall: "Intifada já, morte ao sionismo!", Intifade(?) now, death to zionism!
> 
> Those territorries were always conquered through war in the past. I can't see it stopping now or in any near future.
> ...



No, they can't. The last time there was a war in the Middle East the Americans got involved (Iran-Iraq and Iraq-Kuwait wars). Why aren't the Americans charging around "saving the day" any more? Oh... wait...


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

^what the fuck does that have to do with anything dude?


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> Man ,I really hate to say this but that's not true at all.
> If America ever wants to help opressed people ,why not begin with your own Indian natives? Or what about Saudi Arabia and all those Emirates. They do the same ,they behead people ,they do not have democracy ,so why not bring them democracy? Because it's not about freedom and democracy ,it's about power ,$ ,oil. Anything else is not important.
> 
> Israel is doing this shit since the end of the 40's ,and they got over 1 000 000 000 $ from America to keep this shit running. again it's 1 000 000 000 $...
> ...


because they are associated with terrorist,


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> ^what the fuck does that have to do with anything dude?



I was responding to his post. It has everything to do with _his post_. Read it? 



7 Strings of Hate said:


> because they are associated with terrorist,



Funny, because that's what I call the Israeli army right now. It's all a matter of perspective.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 10, 2009)

christ, why the thumb down?? #1, he was kinda right about 90 to 97&#37; is the majority and #2 he didnt even mention american anywhere in his post but you cant stand to not blame america for anything and everything, it must be nice to be form a little quite country that isnt in the middle of the shit constantly, its real easy on the sidelines i guess


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 10, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> christ, why the thumb down?? #1, he was kinda right about 90 to 97&#37; is the majority and #2 he didnt even mention american anywhere in his post but you cant stand to not blame america for anything and everything, it must be nice to be form a little quite country that isnt in the middle of the shit constantly, its real easy on the sidelines i guess



Actually the thumbs-down was at your caustic little post.

Yes he was right about the majority.

If you read his post you'll find that he was saying that the other countries in the Middle East are able to go around having wars and taking each other's land. I was showing him that that is not the case it all. That's it. The Americans aren't doing anything because they are too heavily invested in Afghanistan and Iraq. They also have too much invested in Israel as well.


----------



## S-O (Jan 10, 2009)

This thread has gone to the lulz.

Notthat I have much to contribute to bring it back though, personally I think the majority of politicians in the world just need to get laid more, or atleast fap one out once a day. Everyone is so stressed out, they are all blue balled (and blue vagina-ed?).


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 11, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> because they are associated with terrorist,



Well ,Islamic terrorism was not present at 60s!


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## CC323 (Jan 11, 2009)

Actually, Islamic terrorism _was_ present in the 1972 Olympics, in case you forgot, and has been premeditated most likely for centuries as retaliation to the crusades and has only escalated to violence due to increased tension in the area. Nice try though.

PS The group that perpetuated those bombings, Fatah, has been around since 1954 

Chris


----------



## daemon barbeque (Jan 11, 2009)

CC323 said:


> Actually, Islamic terrorism _was_ present in the 1972 Olympics, in case you forgot, and has been premeditated most likely for centuries as retaliation to the crusades and has only escalated to violence due to increased tension in the area. Nice try though.
> 
> PS The group that perpetuated those bombings, Fatah, has been around since 1954
> 
> Chris



I say 60s .you answer with 70s and say "nice try"?... America even helped taliban in the 80s so I was referring todays terrorism and Islam synthesis.

If you talk about Fatah ,you can talk about MOSSADs activities in 70s right? What about Munich?


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## Carrion (Jan 11, 2009)

1972 Summer Olympics was Munich...


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## CC323 (Jan 11, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> I say 60s .you answer with 70s and say "nice try"?... America even helped taliban in the 80s so I was referring todays terrorism and Islam synthesis.
> 
> If you talk about Fatah ,you can talk about MOSSADs activities in 70s right? What about Munich?



What? You said, Islamic Terrorism was 'not at the 60's', and I simply informed you that Fatah was active as early as the 50's and prominent in the 60's. I mentioned Munich because you phrased your post as if Islamic terrorism is a brand new anomaly since the late 1980's, which is quite incorrect.


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## silentrage (Jan 11, 2009)

How about some more on-topic-ness?
From someone who served in the Israeli military in the 60s. 
Avi Shlaim: How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe | World news | The Guardian


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 11, 2009)

silentrage said:


> How about some more on-topic-ness?
> From someone who served in the Israeli military in the 60s.
> Avi Shlaim: How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe | World news | The Guardian



Great article. Everyone should read this one.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 11, 2009)

CC323 said:


> What? You said, Islamic Terrorism was 'not at the 60's', and I simply informed you that Fatah was active as early as the 50's and prominent in the 60's. I mentioned Munich because you phrased your post as if Islamic terrorism is a brand new anomaly since the late 1980's, which is quite incorrect.



Fatah is not an islamic terror group which leads me to the conclusion that there where no islamic terror then.
It's simple.



silentrage said:


> How about some more on-topic-ness?
> From someone who served in the Israeli military in the 60s.
> Avi Shlaim: How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe | World news | The Guardian



Thanx man ,good read.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 12, 2009)

daemon barbeque said:


> Fatah is not an islamic terror group which leads me to the conclusion that there where no islamic terror then.
> It's simple.



That's right. They were secular. Corrupt but secular.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 12, 2009)

Look at this:


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## 7 Dying Trees (Jan 12, 2009)

silentrage said:


> How about some more on-topic-ness?
> From someone who served in the Israeli military in the 60s.
> Avi Shlaim: How Israel brought Gaza to the brink of humanitarian catastrophe | World news | The Guardian


Everyone should read this. This is coming from an Israeli as well.


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## Wisdom (Jan 15, 2009)

Palestine started it. I could careless about the middle east. Let them go at each other. To the victor, the spoils. One one of them is wiped out, maybe we can quit hearing about this. Israel will win.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 15, 2009)

Wisdom said:


> Palestine started it. I could careless about the middle east. Let them go at each other. To the victor, the spoils. One one of them is wiped out, maybe we can quit hearing about this. Israel will win.



Can't really blame them for starting it. They got a bunch of land taken away from them. I would probably be pissed off if i got kicked out of my house.


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## arktan (Jan 15, 2009)

Wisdom said:


> Palestine started it. I could careless about the middle east. Let them go at each other. To the victor, the spoils. One one of them is wiped out, maybe we can quit hearing about this. Israel will win.



How much do you know about the history of Palestine? And how much do you know about close quarter battle with tons of civilians around (the IDF is marching into Gaza as we speak)? Have you ever been in a conflict?
And one thing that amuses me very, very much: You speak about Israels victory... tell me how it looks. What will an Israel-victory look like?


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## canuck brian (Jan 15, 2009)

It currently looks like this. This is one of the kids that was shelled with the rest of the 110 people in the safe house.







It's going to look like this whenever someone actually puts Israel on the ropes and forces someone's hand.








> ^hey, our country has been pissed off before but nobody over here is going to the extremes that some of the middle east countrys go do.



Holy shit dude. Nagasaki? Hiroshima? Afghanistan? FFS, America's administration invaded another country because a bunch of assholes flew planes into a densely populated building!!


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 15, 2009)

Wisdom said:


> Palestine started it. I could careless about the middle east. Let them go at each other. To the victor, the spoils. One one of them is wiped out, maybe we can quit hearing about this. Israel will win.



Actually, Israel started the current conflict by sending commandos across the border into Gaza to murder certain Hamas members.

Death toll on the Palestinian side from the past 17 days: 913
Death toll on the Israelis (civilian) side from rocket attacks since 2001: 22

Really proportionate. Bravo Israel. At this stage I couldn't give a shit about whether or not Hamas is extremist, religious or otherwise. Fuck their shit up, Hamas. Keep fighting back.


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## hairychris (Jan 15, 2009)

canuck brian said:


> It currently looks like this. This is one of the kids that was shelled with the rest of the 110 people in the safe house.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, bang on. Apart from the fact that the US didn't invade the country where most of the terrorists actually came from *cough* Saudi Arabia *cough*

Israel is in a very different situation to 1967 - it has nukes and the ability to turn the whole region into a parking lot if it gets invaded.

Israel is not, at least in the short/medium term, in any danger of not surviving. It has the most advanced army in the region, funded by USA tax dollars, and it's neighbours have learned the hard way not to fuck with it directly. Long term, looking at arab WMDs, that's an ongoing issue HOWEVER no regime is (currently) suicidal enough to use those weapons against Israel.

What's happening here is that Israel a) has a displaced population of Palestinians hearded into b) lands that it took from it's neighbours after the 6 Day War. This is not a foreign army invading but a pissed off religious and racial minority who do not have the same basic human rights as the religious and racial majority in Israel.

I'm still of the opinion that if the US Govt puts it's foot down on both sides, something will happen, and fast. Certainly from US sources I've seen more condemnation of Hamas rockets (cynical as they are) then the IDF attacks on civilians. This, unfortunately, is a historical thing. Maybe we get more reports from the Palestinian side in Europe, but the IDF has been used as an instrument of oppression for decades.

I'm also of the opinion that the ultimate solution is either a) negotiation or b) genocide/eternal war. No other options.


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## Nick (Jan 15, 2009)

anyone else think wisdom should be forced to surrender his username


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## halsinden (Jan 15, 2009)

i do just want to do something here, and this is whilst admitting that i havent read every single reply to james (extremely well written and, in my mind, partly justified) open letter as im at work and over 10 pages of replies takes more time than i have

ive been noticing a friend of mine on facebook who would appear to be a staunch defender of israel and its recent actions. i thought i might just re-post an argument hes had with someone on the site recently in his comments. he lives in israel, i believe.

*DISCLAIMER: THESE ARE NOT MY VIEWS OR BELIEFS*. quite the opposite. nor is it my intention to convince anyone on here that israel have acted well. personally, i have a considerable feeling of regret and disdain for much of what israel stands for, its global position and its influence. im posting this to provide the benefit of the doubt for the other side as it were.

on with the argument:



> PERSON A as a link: Hamas throwing Fatah members from the roof Hamas throwing Fatah members from the roof.
> Very disturbing video (warning - graphic content).
> 
> 
> ...



sorry to interrupt this, but i've just realised that this is going on way longer than i thought. i'll post more if people want me to, as i see later down the thread in question that PERSON B has started replying with other points.

H


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 15, 2009)

> ----Forced transfer----
> SOUTH AFRICA
> 
> Between 1950 and 1986, about 1.5 million Africans were forcibly removed from "white" cities to rural reservations.
> ...





Wow, he really believes this stuff? What does he think Israel has been doing for all these years? I mean, this is on the last point alone. I personally don't have the time to pick this stuff apart. I wish I did though.


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## shadowgenesis (Jan 15, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> I personally don't have the time to pick this stuff apart. I wish I did though.



that's rich...


I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.


----------



## silentrage (Jan 15, 2009)

shadowgenesis said:


> that's rich...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.



I'm sorry I missed the part where the UN building seemed like a threat.
Was it holding a rifle and wearing a turban? 
Did it move at an alarming speed towards the border?
Did it also have C4 strapped to itself while engaged in aforementioned movement at an alarming velocity towards the direction of the fences which do not serve to oppress the palestinian people?

Did the UN aid convoy vehicles have long beards, crazy eyes and "DEATH TO ISRAEL" on their back plates? 
Did the medical supply look like explosives? Let's see:
Medical supply - in the shape of boxes
Explosives - in the shape of boxes
Ok, it's conclusive, they do look like explosives. 

O Shit son, the UN is WORKING with HAMAS? This is like season 3 of LOST, but more KICKASS. I just blew my mind from behind again, how do I keep doing this?

Ok ok Israel probably has a very good reason for all this.

Little kids will grow up to hate Israel for no other reason than because it was printed in the Quran, not because of the oppression or lack of food, water and electricy, or seeing their parents and friends blown up by sophisticated smart bombs. So they must die.
Women give birth to kids, well we can't have THAT. They die too.
Problem solved, no more terrorists, no one hates Israel anymore, flowers, candy and unicorns ensue.


----------



## arktan (Jan 16, 2009)

shadowgenesis said:


> that's rich...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.



Have you maybe considered that there is no justification for what Israel is doing? Just like the Nazis/Fascists did in WW2, just like the Soviets did under Stalin and friends, just like South Africa did it with the black population there, just like the "christian" crusaders did it with the muslim population of Jerusalem when they took it, just like *insert another historical example here*...........

All of those mentioned above DID have their justifications for what they did. But those justifications were simply bullshit.


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 16, 2009)

shadowgenesis said:


> that's rich...
> 
> 
> I'm sorry dude, but having read this entire thread I feel like you are the one person participating who hasn't given the opposing viewpoint any serious consideration. You just brush off any and all arguments without discrimination.



Oh really? If someone would care to put forward a point that isn't horribly misinformed or just plain ridiculous then I would be more than happy to accommodate it.



> PERSON A:
> 1) Israel have bombed a school taken over by Hamas.
> 2) The UN school had rocket launchers on the roof.
> 3)The IAF dropped flyers warning of the intended bombing.
> ...



The UN did not have rocket launchers on the roof, the school had up to 100 occupants at the time, Hamas were not in the school and even if they were they were not firing back. Israel is anything but a compassionate state, what we are looking at right now is a prime example of this. It was still a fucking school when it was bombed. The UN said so. Reading this actually makes me angry.



> PERSON A:
> Regarding your solutions to the problem, and apologies for my brevity in answering what is, as you described 'not an easy problem to solve',:-
> 
> 1) Israel was in no way responsible for breaking any ceasefire. Every single day for 8 years with the exception of a few days in 2008, and especially since August 2005, Israel has received a barrage of rockets from Gaza. I have been in areas myself where a siren sounded. I had 15 seconds. There is undisputed evidence of these attacks.
> ...



1. The rocket attacks since 2001 have killed a total or 22 people. _Twenty-two._
Israel also broke the ceasefire by sending commandos into Gaza to attack Hamas members.

2. Congratulations, you don't allow power, food, water, spare parts or fuel into Gaza. How the hell are they supposed to get their shit together when they hate the people who are starving them to death?

Let's assume that they are sending food through (which we all know that it's mostly the humanitarian agencies that are doing this), why the hell are they bombing their own trucks?

Also, I'd trust anyone from Christian Science about as much as I can throw them. 

The mere idea that the blockade is "created" by the Gazan's is sick in the extreme. If you torment an animal enough it's going to fucking bite back, do you still then blame the animal?

In answering his question, no, I don't think _Israel_ has the right to exist in it's current hyper-aggressive Zionist state. I think Jews and Palestinians have the equal right to live on the land side by side and cooperate to to form a better country. Israel have fucked that dream right up for me. 

3. There has been no evidence to say that Hamas are using, or would be stupid enough to use chemical or biological weapons.

The overwhelming number of "kills", as he calls them, were NOT fucking Hamas militants. He even says he doesn't have the facts at hand. I also find it interesting that he says journalists are reporting this when only Israeli journalists are allowed into Gaza. NO foreign (I.E. Third party) journalists are allowed in.

4. Of course there are more and more suicide bombers ready to go. You built a fucking fence/wall that stops them from getting the basic necessities in life. You created the problem in the first place and you're just making it worse for the Palestinians who will then hate you _even more_.



> ----Goal of separation----
> SOUTH AFRICA
> The explicit goal of bantustans was the elimination of rights of the majority South African black population, to ensure white hegemony.
> 
> ...



The wall just makes things worse for the Palestinians, and they basically have no rights now. They are at the mercy of the Israelis.

 Of course they were never citizens of Israel! You came in and took their land and pushed them into the corners or your new territories. They WERE citizens of the country that was their before the Brits came and fucked over the Arabs who lived there and helped them against the Turks.

There. Happy now?


----------



## chimp_spanner (Jan 16, 2009)

^ My God...it's full of win!


----------



## Rick (Jan 16, 2009)

There was actually a protest here in Austin with a bunch of Palestinians waving flags and holding signs, many of which said, "Honk for Peace."


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 16, 2009)

chimp_spanner said:


> ^ My God...it's full of win!



Glad I could entertain.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 17, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Oh really? If someone would care to put forward a point that isn't horribly misinformed or just plain ridiculous then I would be more than happy to accommodate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Once again, you can't just march into a country, take the peoples land kill some of them and then expect no anger from them.


----------



## silentrage (Jan 17, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> Once again, you can't just march into a country, take the peoples land kill some of them and then expect no anger from them.



You can... Poland, lol.

j/k


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## winterlover (Jan 20, 2009)

Wisdom said:


> Palestine started it. I could careless about the middle east. Let them go at each other. To the victor, the spoils. One one of them is wiped out, maybe we can quit hearing about this. Israel will win.



this gets my vote personally


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 20, 2009)

winterlover said:


> this gets my vote personally



Why?


----------



## Daemoniac (Jan 20, 2009)

winterlover said:


> this gets my vote personally



Palestine _didn't _start it... if you want to get into it technically, Egypt started it when Moses led the Jews _away_ from Israel (thus abandoning Israel as it was then)... then Britain started it in modern historical times...

They may be a completely different society to us, you may not appreciate it, hell you may _hate_ the way they live. BUT that does not make them any less people than us, nor does it make them in any way less than us. It is development at a different level, with a completely different set of moral codes, religions and statutes. They too are people who just want to live their lives, but no, wWe had to take that away from all of them and create the current state of Israel, condemning both sides to a state of near perpetual warfare in which there is no real 'right' or 'wrong' side.

The western world started this after WWII, and they fucked up good and proper.


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## failshredder (Jan 20, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> The western world started this after WWII, and they fucked up good and proper.


 The UN is fucking useless and basically comprised of self-righteous assholes who are as power-hungry as the next guys.

To the OP: Why the hell are you posting a letter to Israel here? Israel is probably not going to read it.


----------



## Daemoniac (Jan 21, 2009)

^ Sure they'll read it 

_ALL of them will... _


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## 7 Dying Trees (Jan 27, 2009)

failshredder said:


> The UN is fucking useless and basically comprised of self-righteous assholes who are as power-hungry as the next guys.
> 
> To the OP: Why the hell are you posting a letter to Israel here? Israel is probably not going to read it.


I know they won't, but, it's a thread title, and allowed me to sum up my thoughts on the matter.

Now, I am not forgetting, I am no less disgusted, and no less revolted by the lack of anyone persecuting a nation of murderous bastards that hide behind religion as a means to perform ethnic cleanisng.

No press allowed in, would that be because of the shame you suddenly feel Israel?

Disgusting. If you have any shred of decency you will allow people to be tried for war crimes instead of giving all your soldiers immunity.

Were it the other way round, like it has been when the nazi's were tried, then you'd be singing a different song.

Fuck the lot of you.


----------



## ZeroSignal (Jan 28, 2009)

> *Does Amnesty International have evidence of Palestinian armed groups, including Hamas, using civilians as human shields?*
> At this point, although our investigations are as yet far from complete, Amnesty International has more solid information on Israel's use of human shields. In a number of cases, we have found compelling evidence that Israeli soldiers who were deployed in Gaza entered and took up position in their homes of Palestinian civilians, forcing families to stay in a ground floor room while they use the rest of their house as a military base and sniper position, effectively using civilians as human shields. This practice has been common in the past eight years both in the Gaza Strip and in the West Bank. In a previous incursion into Gaza in March 2008, Israeli soldiers took over at least three houses in the north of the Gaza Strip. In February 2008 soldiers took over a house in the village of Beit Ummar, near Hebron, in the West Bank.
> 
> However, both Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen have fired at each other from areas close to civilian homes, thereby endangering their inhabitants - such actions by both parties to the conflict can be considered unlawful attacks. Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups have also unlawfully endangered civilians in Gaza by firing rockets into Israel from densely populated residential areas.
> ...



This is what I received in an email today from Amnesty International (who I'm a member of, apparently). It makes for interesting reading...


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## Daemoniac (Jan 28, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> This is what I received in an email today from Amnesty International (who I'm a member of, apparently). It makes for interesting reading...



 And its exactly what i've been saying...


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## silentrage (Jan 28, 2009)

If by "interesting" you mean "disgusting" then yes, very fcking interesting indeed.


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## Daemoniac (Feb 3, 2009)

^  One of those "good, but sad to know" moments.


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## Sang-Drax (Feb 10, 2009)

Kakaka said:


> Those territorries were always conquered through war in the past. I can't see it stopping now or in any near future.
> 
> Why can those people conquer their land through war and Israel can't, even if it were in a counter-attack (6 Days War mainly)?



For two reasons.

1. Because land conquering was already considered to be a violation to international laws by 1962, whereas it wasn't as such back in the ancient times (obviously), when the arabs settled themselves on that region.

2. Because the mere creation of Israel was an unprecedent absurd. Installing a new country in the middle of another one, for fulfilling the desire of the western world of having an ally in the middle East, close to oil production?

Plus, are you even aware that there was no animosity at all between Islam and Jews before 1948? Hell, back in the middle times, arabs were tolerant to other religions in their own territories.

In one thing I agree with you: it's hard to envision peace in that place. The arabs will never accept illegally having lost their lands, and the Israeli won't simply move. Sad but true


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 3, 2010)

Anyone else on this side of the pond saw Ross Kemp in Gaza on Sky One just now?

It's a year on and most of Gaza is still in rubble and Hamas is stronger than every by the looks of things.

They also met a 24 year old law graduate turned suicide bomber and several orphaned children who told some truly horrific stories. With that amount of pain I'd wager that they'd want revenge when they grow up. Hatred begets hatred after all...


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## Meshugger (Jan 4, 2010)

That whole place is a mess. I would be careful to pick sides though, since neither of them are angels. 

I mean, with the history of the place, it seems like 'God' really is a prankster, having fun with his worshipper's feeble minds:

1) It is the sacred state for his favourite people: the jews, who happened to throw out the other tribes of the old (philistines iirc), all according to their sacred scripture. Hey, god told them that it was ok!

2) It has the sacred town of Jerusalem, where the great temple of their king has been built, demolished, built again, and finally demolished again.

3) The very same city also happens to be a very holy for his son, Jesus and his followers, who were jews, but then decided not call themselves that, and prefered the term 'christians' instead. Anyhoo, it became holy for someone else than the jews.

4) Another fella, a warlord named Muhammed, who thinks that the jews and christians are quite silly, says that he has seen the truth and goes to heaven on the very same place as the original jewish temple itself. Nowadays, it is the place of a mosque, whoose name i have forgotten, but did the fella have to be such an ass and ascend to heaven on the very same place that was holy for some other guys? Quite a bad routine if you want my opinion. Anyhoo, the place became sacred for his followers: the islamists. Oh the joy, now there's three of them. What.a.mess.

5) Fast forward some years to the middle ages: The christians decide to toss away some of the passages of the new Testament(hint: the peace, love forgiveness and understanding-part) and raid around Jerusalem and the nearby area and liberate it from the Islamists. The followers of Islam seem however to be more rightouss, since they do not have that sissy "turn the other cheek"-blabla in their scripture. The finally win. The Jews lost anyway, since they didn't have any army. Many flee to Europe. Bad idea, since what is about to come.

6) The Ottoman times, muslims rule the land and the jews and christians have to pay a dhimmi-tax for thinking wrong about god. There's little resistance however, quite peaceful actually, since the ottomans would more than frown upon rebellion. 

7) The british come in and abolish the dhimmi-tax and start taxing(=screwing) everyone equally instead. Claim to be christians, but shoot everyone equally in order to keep order. Some jews move back in.

8)The muslims do not appriciate the growing number of jews, i do not claim to know what the jews did to them, but if the mufti of Jerusalem goes to Berlin to have a chat with Hitler about it, then it had to be serious business. 

9) Post WWII, 1948 to be exactly. The last 20-50 years have seen a steady rise of jews moving into the lands. I do not know who threw the first stone, but they seem NOT to like each other. Many jews have fled to the holy land lately, mainly due to the holocaust. The british have grown tired and are thinking about leaving, but now we have two factions(jews and muslims) claiming the land, meh. Well, atleast the christians seems to shut up at the moment, thank _god_ for that.

10) It is still 1948 and there's more or less civil war between the two. The british say "sayonara", and the newly formed UN thinks up of a two-state solution. The jews seemed to be ok with it, but the arab nations said "na-ah". The jews ask the king of Jordan about the matter and he offers, what he thinks anyway, something generous: No jewish state, but you can have a ghetto in Jerusalem. The jews then say "na-ah" to the generous offer of his. Truman thinks that he has the right idea however, and supports an Israeli state. But ofcourse, he forgots to mention exactly where the state-lines should be drawn, and refuse to give any weapons to the jews. The jews say "yay!" and declare indepence on what they feel is their land. The Arabs say "nay!" and attack Israel. With the aid of French(!) weapons, the jews repell the arab states. They try again a couple of years later, but fail again. The jews keep some arabs, but throw out the rest. The palestinian nationalism is born. The christians in the land try to ignore them both.

Then, we have nowadays, with the Israeli occupation and overreactive violence to any threat (think Lebanon, a.k.a Israel's and Syria's bitch). The palestinians are ghettofied more or less, but it isn't exactly because they give the jews bad bank loans or alike. The neighbouring arab countries refuses to give the palestinians citizenship and abuse their status to further reinforce the conflict. The rage seems to pour on both sides of the fence, and considering the history of the region, _goddammit_ what a mess. I simply refuse to take sides. The only thing that i know, is that peace will not come to the holy lands until everyone there want it.

I suggest that marijuana smoking should be the _law_ there, Everyone above the age of 16 should smoke 4-5 blunts/day. Maybe that would make them cool down a bit. Relying on god is certainly not the answer.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 4, 2010)

The only side I will ever take is with the people.


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## 8string (Jan 4, 2010)

What Meshugger said 
/rant


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## IDLE (Jan 4, 2010)

Everybody seems to like to soak that land in blood. One group gets it and forgets what the horrors the last group did to them felt like and it all repeats. No one deserves to have it.


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## Ckackley (Jan 4, 2010)

Meshugger said:


> That whole place is a mess. I would be careful to pick sides though, since neither of them are angels.
> 
> I mean, with the history of the place, it seems like 'God' really is a prankster, having fun with his worshipper's feeble minds:
> 
> Relying on god is certainly not the answer.



I agree here. How many of the problems, not only in the middle east but everywhere would be solved if we took "God" out of the equation. Suddenly it's not Holy Land anymore. Just land. More rock and dirt just like your neighbors rock and dirt. Better yet, if that land is Holy , and it's just like other land wouldn't that make ALL Land Holy? 
As a race we've got it wrong. As a country the United States has it really wrong. The US thinks Israel is important because they hold the threat of nuclear annihilation if someone fucks with them too much. That keeps the region in check to a degree. Not to mention they've got one of the top air forces in the world and their ground troupes are usually mentioned as the most ruthless hand to hand fighters in the world. The US has always been buddies with Israel because they've been a US gateway into the middle east. If Israel falls the West will more than likely be shut out of the Mid East. That's the real reason the US invaded Iraq. Israel is getting trigger happy and the US needed a new ally. 
The US has made Israel the monster it's become. In my opinion Israel is getting hungry and it's just a matter of time before they start branching out to try and get more territory. It's happened before with countless civilizations. I just hope the US doesn't jump on the wrong side when it does.


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 4, 2010)

On this topic, might I recommend a seminar with Amb (Ret) Philip Wilcox? 
Philip Wilcox
Philip C. Wilcox Jr., LLB - Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - ProCon.org

Much of what I've stated in previous threads concerning this subject are based upon much of what this gent has had to say.

Relative to peace in the region, it's fairly doubtful at present, too much blood on either side (hence the reason that a single state solution, which is what is desperately needed is not obtainable). 

Water rights are going to cause even more tension in the very near future between Israel/Palestinian Territories, Syria and Jordan. With further supposition that this will invalidate any hope of viability for the Palestinian territories (whether by two- or three-state solutions that are being currently proposed) and Israel to remain separate nations.


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## TruthDose (Jan 18, 2010)

Israel is a HUGE problem, for the U.S. and the world.
Israel through AIPAC runs the country. 
I could go on for everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
but for the sake of reading and my typing hands, I wont lol.

But if you say this, you're "anti-Semitic". 
And then you must clarify again, that it is the actions of people that define them, not religion, race, age, etc.


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## supdoc (Jan 25, 2010)

TruthDose said:


> Israel is a HUGE problem, for the U.S. and the world.
> Israel through AIPAC runs the country.
> I could go on for everrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
> but for the sake of reading and my typing hands, I wont lol.
> ...





If you take from israel the right to defend itself (=the right to live) dont be surprised that israelis will call you anti semetic.


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## Abstract_Logic (Jan 25, 2010)

TruthDose said:


> *Israel is a HUGE problem, for the U.S. and the world.
> Israel through AIPAC runs the country. *
> 
> 
> ...





Ckackley said:


> How many of the problems, not only in the middle east but everywhere would be solved if we took "God" out of the equation.



Agreed 

Why is it also that you can't be critical of religious motives for things such as "The Holy Land" without your credibility being questioned?


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## TruthDose (Jan 25, 2010)

supdoc said:


> If you take from israel the right to defend itself (=the right to live) dont be surprised that israelis will call you anti semetic.




This post obviously didn't take much effort, so I did the same:

Nice propaganda, I wasnt aware that we were taking Israels right to live. As far as I know America is in on this whole deal. But this right to live lets put the mirror up.
-Israeli military admits to organ harvesting - The Local
-this was all started from a shabby homemade missile fired from protesting Palestinians after resources were halted by Israelis. 
-How about Cynthia McKinneys visit? 
-Freegaza - Letter from an Israeli Jail, by Cynthia McKinney
And as far as being labeled an anti-Semite I was mostly referring to our 90% Jewish/Israeli owned media.
This ISNT EVEN the tip of the iceberg.


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## supdoc (Jan 25, 2010)

TruthDose said:


> This post obviously didn't take much effort, so I did the same:
> 
> Nice propaganda, I wasn&#8217;t aware that we were taking Israel&#8217;s &#8220;right to live&#8221;. As far as I know America is in on this whole deal. But this &#8220;right to live&#8221; let&#8217;s put the mirror up.
> -Israeli military admits to organ harvesting - The Local
> ...



You want israel to stop fighting nazi terrorist(read hamas platform) just because the terrorists can't kill more israelis?

btw they fail because of the fence that preventsuicide bombers to get into israel, more than 1600 israelis died because of them.. israel not stupid like the arabs and know what to do for keep it's civilians live..

about the organs.. if it really happend, i dont support this..


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## Abstract_Logic (Jan 25, 2010)

supdoc said:


> You want israel to stop fighting nazi terrorist(read hamas platform) just because the terrorists can't kill more israelis?


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## TruthDose (Jan 25, 2010)

supdoc said:


> You want israel to stop fighting nazi terrorist(read hamas platform) just because the terrorists can't kill more israelis?
> 
> btw they fail because of the fence that preventsuicide bombers to get into israel, more than 1600 israelis died because of them.. israel not stupid like the arabs and know what to do for keep it's civilians live..
> 
> about the organs.. if it really happend, i dont support this..



I want Israel to stop killing people altogether, like I said they threw the first punch (and always do).

I understand if you are defending your country and I respect that, but you need to take a look into somethings, if any one replies, I PROMISE next post i'll give you some specific things to research (tight schedule atm)

The organ harvesting has happened on many incidences, orphans being a main target.


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## supdoc (Jan 26, 2010)

so what Israel should do when suicide bombers and rockets are threating civilians?
Israel already suggested 97% of the area they want but.... the arabs refused, all they want is to distroy israel, what you sauggest?\

the target is terrorists, not civilians! (only if civilians helping terrorist and storing ammo in their house they are on the target)


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 26, 2010)

supdoc said:


> the target is terrorists, not civilians! (only if civilians helping terrorist and storing ammo in their house they are on the target)



The problem with this suggested course of action is that this would mean that Israel would be back in the position of occupying the respected disputed areas of land and actually policing them. Money and resources become a greater factor and sadly this isn't always reported by any news media. Sadly, what is happening within Gaza isn't too terribly dissimilar than what is happening in Northern Mexico wherein different militant groups go into a building and take over for a while. So, unlike popular belief, the majority of Palestinian civilians aren't all willing supporters or combatants for that matter. Bravado doesn't help much with a bullet in the back of your mind. On the flip-side, a corrupt police force, a lack of international will (it would be far worse than Viet Nam and Afghanistan for those forces, by the by) and again, too much blood being spilt for so long that things haven't changed. 

By no means am I in support of either side's actions, what I do ask is that both sides take a rather long and deep look into what has or has not been accomplished followed very closely by a dialogue on actually coming to cessation of hostilities with the assistance of their respective neighbors. Time for the children to grow up and not be their (former or current) oppressors any more. This last bit is relative to the respective "governments" and not their respective civilians. Again, look at the cooperation between Israeli, Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian farmers.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 26, 2010)

supdoc said:


> so what Israel should do when suicide bombers and rockets are threating civilians?
> Israel already suggested 97% of the area they want but.... the arabs refused, all they want is to distroy israel, what you sauggest?\
> 
> the target is terrorists, not civilians! (only if civilians helping terrorist and storing ammo in their house they are on the target)



Obviously they want to destroy Israel, its because they kicked the arabs off their land


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## supdoc (Jan 27, 2010)

phaeded0ut said:


> The problem with this suggested course of action is that this would mean that Israel would be back in the position of occupying the respected disputed areas of land and actually policing them. Money and resources become a greater factor and sadly this isn't always reported by any news media. Sadly, what is happening within Gaza isn't too terribly dissimilar than what is happening in Northern Mexico wherein different militant groups go into a building and take over for a while. So, unlike popular belief, the majority of Palestinian civilians aren't all willing supporters or combatants for that matter. Bravado doesn't help much with a bullet in the back of your mind. On the flip-side, a corrupt police force, a lack of international will (it would be far worse than Viet Nam and Afghanistan for those forces, by the by) and again, too much blood being spilt for so long that things haven't changed.
> 
> By no means am I in support of either side's actions, what I do ask is that both sides take a rather long and deep look into what has or has not been accomplished followed very closely by a dialogue on actually coming to cessation of hostilities with the assistance of their respective neighbors. Time for the children to grow up and not be their (former or current) oppressors any more. This last bit is relative to the respective "governments" and not their respective civilians. Again, look at the cooperation between Israeli, Palestinian, Jordanian, and Syrian farmers.



You should look at history and see that the arabs dont want peace, even before the Israeli declaration of independence they were slaughtering at jews that were settle in purchased and legal areas.. 

so what is your excuse now ?



Stealthtastic said:


> Obviously they want to destroy Israel, its because they kicked the arabs off their land


Yup and its a shame they forgot to kick 150K that left in israel...if they weren't trying to distroy israel it wouldn't happen.. 

they are still trying to but now israel is much strong than ever.. just admit that you support at the islamic world domination LOL


oh.. and check this out:

Did you know that there was never any country called Palestine? Did you know that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people?
The ideas that the West Bank and Gaza are occupied Palestinian land, and that the Palestinian people are fighting for their land, have been accepted by most of the governments of the world and by most of the media in the world. But if you read on, you will see that these two claims are the biggest lies ever deliberately perpetrated on humanity.
Check out any map of the Middle East and see for yourself. You will find Palestine listed as a region as it always has been, but definitely not a country. We can locate the Mojave Desert on the map, but we still do not recognize it as our 51st state, let alone a country. Similarly, the region of Siberia is a region not a state. Or the Sahara is a region not a state, etc. Neither is Palestine a state. It never was a country, just a region.






Importantly, the Jews did not displace anyone, because no one permanently resided there. It was a land inhabited by nomadic, Bedouin tribes. The whole region was nothing but deserts and swamps. Only about 120,000 Arabs resided in an area that covered the territories, the state of Israel and Jordan. When Mark Twain visited the area, he wrote he found nothing but a wasteland.




During the 19 years that the territories, including Jerusalem and Gaza, were occupied by the kingdoms of Jordan and Egypt, (refer to http://masada2000.org/historical.html) no one talked about a Palestinian state, not the Arab countries, not the United Nations. Nobody asked Jordan or Egypt to abdicate their ownership and give it to the Palestinians. Not even the Palestinians themselves said anything about a Palestinian state or a Palestinian people, because nobody heard of a Palestinian people. It never existed.
The fact simply is that there are no Palestinians. * These people are Arabs* like all other Arabs, and they happen to live in a region called Palestine. They are not a separate people.
What makes a separate people? Religion, language, culture, garb, cuisine, etc. The Arabs in Palestine speak the same language, practice the same religion, have the same culture, etc., as all the other Arabs. The few minor differences that exist between them are like the minor differences that exist between the American Northerners and Southerners, Easterners and Westerners... but they are still all Americans. People in the south of France are quite different from the people in the north, but they are still all French. These inconsequential differences do not make a people.
The Arabs living in Syria or Jordan, etc., are also the same Arabs, but they are each a separate nation because they each have a separate country. The so-called Palestinians want a separate country because they claim to be a separate nation. They are not. They were never a separate people before the new state of Israel. How did they become one now?
Because of these lies, the so-called "Palestinians" feel justified in sending suicide bombers to kill women, children, babies, old men, old women and noncombatant citizens. Because of these lies, the United Nations and the media of the world are condemning Israel who is acting less harshly than any other country would act in retaliation for such heinous attacks. What is the United States doing in Afghanistan, a totally foreign country? Killing Afghanis. Why? Because they attacked us on Sept. 11. I understand this. But why do they not understand that that is exactly what Israel is doing, only on a much smaller scale?
Ask yourself this: Should the use of terror ever be rewarded? When is the use of terrorism justified as a military tactic? As a political tactic? As an economic tactic? What implications does this hold for future conflicts?
Let us examine the truths here:




1) There never was a Palestinian state or a Palestinian nation. There are no Palestinian people, per se. Rather, these are Arabs living in a region that historically has been called many things, including "Palestine."
2) Israel did not go to war against a Palestinian state and occupy its land. Rather, Israel was attacked by six Arab countries at once. She defended herself, defeated her attackers, and won the so-called territories, not from the Palestinians, but from Jordan and Egypt.
3) Jerusalem was never the capital of any state but Israel. It was certainly never the capital of a country that never existed. Why should the Palestinians get any part of it? Because they want it? Because they have terrorists?
4) Jerusalem, under the current Israeli control, is a free and open city. Israel, as a democracy, guarantees freedom of religion within its borders. Contrast this fact with areas that have come under Palestinian occupation. What percentage of Christians have left in recent years because they cannot stand the harassment and persecution?
5) Most Arabs living in Palestine today are not indigenous to the region. It was not until after the Jews had changed deserts and swamps into a productive and thriving land that the Arabs started migrating there. Arafat himself was born and raised in Cairo, Egypt. Did you know that?
The belief that giving the Palestinians a state will bring peace is a delusion. The truth is that they want it all. The short-term goal is a state consisting of the West Bank and Gaza. The long-term goal is a state which includes all of "historical Palestine," including Jordan.
How do I know this?
The late Faisal Husseini, Arafat's Jerusalem representative, a man who was cultured, sophisticated and considered the most moderate of all the Palestinians, shortly before his death on May 31, 2001, expressed his true feelings in an interview with the popular Egyptian newspaper el Arav. Husseini said: "We must distinguish the strategies and long-term goals from the political-phased goals which we are compelled to accept due to international pressures." But the "ultimate goal is the liberation of *all* of historical Palestine." Explicitly he said: "Oslo has to be viewed as a Trojan Horse."
He even added and clarified that it is the obligation of all the Palestinian forces and factions to see the Oslo Accords as "temporary" steps, as "gradual" goals, because in this way, "We are setting an ambush for the Israelis and cheating them." He also differentiated between "strategic," long-term, "higher" goals, and "political" short-term goals dependent on "the current international establishment, balance of power" etc.
All of historical Palestine! Does not this include all of Israel and all of Jordan?
*



What does this say to you?*
Unless the Arabs recognize and accept these truths, even if they are given a state of their own, and no matter how many agreements and treaties they sign, they will always feel wronged, cheated, and forced into giving up what they now claim is theirs. They will continue to plot and look for an opportunity to destroy Israel in order to take back what they claim is theirs, especially the younger generation that has been brainwashed to hate the occupying enemy. Whether there is a Palestinian state or not, *there will be no peace.*
Only a massive and ongoing re-education of the Arab people to these truths will enable meaningful negotiations to begin, followed by a lasting peace between Arabs and Jews. It is therefore critical that everyone who has an audience, whether in print or other media, use the forum they have available to repeat these truths again and again until they reach the consciousness of those waging war in the Middle East.


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 27, 2010)

No excuses, mate, the whole thing is nothing but tears for everyone involved. I'll happily point out that you forgot to mention British occupation of the area (and the Stern gang along with a few other militant religious groups who liked office buildings and department stores). Then there was the ever-popular excuse to send Europeans and a few USA citizens to a land that wasn't their own by birth and have them settle there rather than continue to face persecution within their native countries. The origional occupants (Muslims, Christians, Jews and some Zoroastrians) weren't too pleased with the arrangement of having a bunch of unwelcomed folks show up in their townships/cities. Can't disagree with the legal land purchasing, though it is disingenuous not to mention that these purchases were made with quite a bit of assistance that the poor indigenous populace couldn't possibly match or out-bid. Also remember that there were a few pogroms that were instituted in removing the indigenous populace who didn't agree with the "right of ownership," too. 

This said, it would be equally poor on my part not to mention that said indigenous populace took a page from every two-year old out there and had a very singular response to every option presented to them, this being, "NO!!!" This is, if they even participated in the discussion, in many cases the representatives completely failed their relative constituencies by not participating. Legally, Gaza became some odd-form of extended camp/protectorate of Egypt. While Jordan got stuck with the West Bank. Syria was also having grumblings at this loss of area say. The above statements are also misleading as the information is biased depending upon with whom you're talking. Also remember that all of the Middle East was separated/delineated very arbitrarily between European countries with some arbitration from the United States. So saying, "Jordanian" is very misleading as some of the folks are ethnically more similar to groups within Syria, Israel and possibly Lebanon. Some are even more related to Turkish ethnic groups, too. 

When the Brits finally got scared out of the area (shouldn't have monkeyed with it in the first place, but they were still duking it out with France and the USA really didn't help matters) and Israel became a nation, diplomacy was unfortunately forgotten by the "neighbors," who felt that this was a repeat of the Crusades. I will not disagree that it was a horrible decision for the "neighbors" to go to war multiple times in a bid to get rid of the Europeans and few USA'ers who'd taken over. Can't argue that the Israelis have every right to defend themselves, just wouldn't be cricket to say/speculate otherwise.

Presently, as I've stated before, supdoc, water rights are going to be a major issue (whether in a three, two or single state solution). To be honest, I'm rather hoping for quite a number of different groups' respective sakes that the moderates are able to come into power on all sides. Then again, I'm under no illusions that this will come to pass anytime in the near future, neither side can rightly afford peace just yet (much the same problem with North and South Korea). At least Israel is spending money on infrastructure and are working to lengthen out the reserves of natural resources.

Again, the moral of this is not to answer everything with, "no," but to instead be conditional in one's responses and to at least participate rather than abdicate one's choices (this was equally done by the indigenous populace, too). The other moral of this horrific tale is that neither side is innocent, irrespective of what their respective religions, religious leaders and politicians have to say.


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## supdoc (Jan 27, 2010)

phaeded0ut said:


> No excuses, mate, the whole thing is nothing but tears for everyone involved. I'll happily point out that you forgot to mention British occupation of the area (and the Stern gang along with a few other militant religious groups who liked office buildings and department stores). Then there was the ever-popular excuse to send Europeans and a few USA citizens to a land that wasn't their own by birth and have them settle there rather than continue to face persecution within their native countries. The origional occupants (Muslims, Christians, Jews and some Zoroastrians) weren't too pleased with the arrangement of having a bunch of unwelcomed folks show up in their townships/cities. Can't disagree with the legal land purchasing, though it is disingenuous not to mention that these purchases were made with quite a bit of assistance that the poor indigenous populace couldn't possibly match or out-bid. Also remember that there were a few pogroms that were instituted in removing the indigenous populace who didn't agree with the "right of ownership," too.
> 
> This said, it would be equally poor on my part not to mention that said indigenous populace took a page from every two-year old out there and had a very singular response to every option presented to them, this being, "NO!!!" This is, if they even participated in the discussion, in many cases the representatives completely failed their relative constituencies by not participating. Legally, Gaza became some odd-form of extended camp/protectorate of Egypt. While Jordan got stuck with the West Bank. Syria was also having grumblings at this loss of area say. The above statements are also misleading as the information is biased depending upon with whom you're talking. Also remember that all of the Middle East was separated/delineated very arbitrarily between European countries with some arbitration from the United States. So saying, "Jordanian" is very misleading as some of the folks are ethnically more similar to groups within Syria, Israel and possibly Lebanon. Some are even more related to Turkish ethnic groups, too.
> 
> ...



the only problem is that arabs can't live in peace with the jews, at the moment they will have the opportunity, they will try to fight and destroy israel and the jews, now all they left is using the press and faking to the camera by showing the same crushed buildings again and again and blaming israel for the "occupation" that they made israel to do..

they can't have all they want they did their mistake and they responsible consequences


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 28, 2010)

Dear Supdoc,

I did some research on your little article that you cut and pasted here to try and prove your point, and I found some wonderful information pertaining to the site that it came from. Pulling information from a completely biased site, (here is the link so all the forum can see for themselves History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict) and trying to pass it off as credible "history" is rather asinine. If you want to rest of the world to pay attention to your cause maybe try being a bit more objective in your view. The inhabitants of the Palestinian territories have done wrong but Israel has had its own mistakes. Every country does and has done things that were of the questionable position and to come in here touting that your country has never been at fault and pulling information from a one sided sources isn't going to win you any support.


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## supdoc (Jan 28, 2010)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> Dear Supdoc,
> 
> I did some research on your little article that you cut and pasted here to try and prove your point, and I found some wonderful information pertaining to the site that it came from. Pulling information from a completely biased site, (here is the link so all the forum can see for themselves History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict) and trying to pass it off as credible "history" is rather asinine. If you want to rest of the world to pay attention to your cause maybe try being a bit more objective in your view. The inhabitants of the Palestinian territories have done wrong but Israel has had its own mistakes. Every country does and has done things that were of the questionable position and to come in here touting that your country has never been at fault and pulling information from a one sided sources isn't going to win you any support.


just tell me what facts are wrong??

everything you can see there is what the media hide from the world.. just because it's popular to be "against the occupier", even if


> The Arabs and/or Muslims of today control 22 nations... 99½ percent of the ENTIRE Middle East land mass while Israel occupies only a 1/2 of 1 percent speck on this same map


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 28, 2010)

supdoc said:


> the only problem is that arabs can't live in peace with the jews, at the moment they will have the opportunity, they will try to fight and destroy israel and the jews, now all they left is using the press and faking to the camera by showing the same crushed buildings again and again and blaming israel for the "occupation" that they made israel to do..
> 
> they can't have all they want they did their mistake and they responsible consequences



LOL! It's actually less of a problem of Muslims, Christians and Jews living within the same (contested) boundaries, than it is one of population growth for the Israeli government trying to keep Israel a Jewish state. Something about much larger (and quicker about it) families on the Muslim side of things within Israel and the "Palestinian Territories" vs. the influx of "vacationers" coming into their most of the year empty flats, some of which were newly built. The constant growth will unfortunately surpass the fluctuation population in the very near future and will leave the politicians in a rather interesting quandary; how do you claim a state is one religion or another when you're now the minority in control? Remove voting rights (the Knesset's talked about this for decades) from the Israeli Muslims and Christians and the analog of South Africa is painfully accurate. Change to a secular state and your own (Jewish) religious conservatives become the nightmare and history has shown just how far and nasty that bunch from any religion can be. (You might recall that I'm of the opinion that a two/three-state solution will not work out for resource and economical issues.) The other issues at hand have to deal with areable land and water rights (aquifers and access to fresh water) with the increase of population. 

Another series of examples of the lot working well together are:
Egypt and Jordan have been fairly decent neighbors with Israel for a few administrations. For an example of the decent relations between Jordan and Israel, it doesn't take too much more than to look over the river and see that farmers from both sides are working really well together; seems that these Arab Muslims and Jews get along, eh? Yes, there are going to be some clashes considering the "Palestinian" diaspora and the relative size of that population within Jordan. On a side note, I was very pleased to read that said refugees are now integrating within Jordanian society rather than keeping themselves separate (again, there is much more to this statement as to whether or not this was an active decision on the part of the descendants of said refugees). 
Another quick example that was in the news was that Jordanian (UN) security teams were requested by the Israeli medical unit in going over to Haiti. Instead of answering the obligatory question of, "why" with cynicism, it might be more constructive to look at the stated answers (these slightly differing between media sources) from the relative military and political spokes people. This is not a dig at you, personally, but a request for lots of folks within this disaster and those without (outside).
Turkey (NON-Arab Muslim state) was doing fairly well for long while, though Erdogan's recent hard change in stance is more than a little troubling for Israel and other nations, unfortunately. 

On the issue of same crushed buildings over and over... That's a bit disingenuous, especially when the media is blocked for extended periods of time. I won't disagree that there is some exaggeration going on, but then again, this is rather true of both sides.  

Again, it is very necessary to point out that all three of the current sides Hamas, Fatah and Israel do not have the funding, nor the political will to end this mess. I just don't see the PLO as being functional, but I could readily be incorrect in this opinion. Israel at least has the financial stability (economic resources), infrastructure and natural resources to be able to be viable, the other two don't by any stretch.

On the blamecasting bit (loosing the many wars/battles), well, if you really want to get down to it, I won't completely disagree with you. However, all three sides are very guilty of unconscionable acts committed currently and in the past. All three sides really do need to halt their respective dubious activities and maturely and honestly come back to the negotiating table. However, (on the historical bit) there is quite a bit of England, France, Russia, the United States, Saudi Arabia and Iran (for the main six players through the years and there were quite a number more) that would also need to own up to their respective mistakes/meddling in this disaster and frankly, I wouldn't hold my breath on this occurring for the side players. 

Instead, sadly, it will be necessary for all sides to discontinue the nonconstructive bickering (and in-fighting), and make some rather painful concessions in order to extricate themselves from this mess. I'd also posit that UN humanitarian and Peace Keeping Forces would need to be deployed within all three territories, too. As stated, there will be a need for very painful concessions on all sides. Personally, I'd hope that the lot would go to a single state solution (the most resource and economically viable option, but also the most difficult) in time.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 29, 2010)

supdoc said:


> just tell me what facts are wrong??
> 
> everything you can see there is what the media hide from the world.. just because it's popular to be "against the occupier", even if



I can actually prove the opposite.
Since decades, Israel is doing whatever it wants, but you only see Arabic violence in European TVs. You see a palestinian guy killing a kid, but nobody tells that just a day ago, A Tank killed 10 kids in a building.

You really think it's Israels right to do whatever it does? Think again.
Please compare the death rates on both sides
Please compare the wealth difference between both sides
Please compare the access to Fresh water between the both sites
Please report about the land occupied by Israel and criticized by the UN.
Please watch all the movies about civilians killed by soldiers
Please report about the carbon and phosphor weapons, and depleted uranium.

After this, we can discuss what Arabs do, how they act and everything. Arabs do not want Israel in their lands. They have the right for it. It's stolen territory. You guys maybe can buy it tho. Pay all the Palestinians, buy them land around or in The USA, and get rid of them. Sounds not so right right?

Do Britain, France and UN did a failure by creating an Israel in the middle of Arabic Territory? yes! Was this right? No! 
There where More Jews living in Europe, America and wherever than Israel. If the UN and others wanted to "grand" Jews a land, why not in the middle of States? Why not give them the Wells, Texas or Province in France? Well, nobody wanted to give their own lands, so Israel got the Middle east. It was Perfect for America and Europe to have a strong Ally in the middle of Oil Region. That is why you guys can do whatever you want. You are needed.

It's a very dirty business since the beginning. And it is getting dirtier. The indoctrination is too strong to break (As you prove with your statements).

BTW, I am aware of Hamas and other fanatic hobgoblins, who make money and have power on people. But this kind of "side effect" comes merely from Israeli actions, leaving ordinary people no chance of a normal life, and choose to hire wrong but strong bodyguards.

If you want to get rid of Arabic hobgoblins and other Fanatics, get rid of your own fanatics, brainwashing and nationalism. Teach your own citizens how to reach peace instead of 2-3 years of military service.

Use you unending funds and help from Europe and USA for bring prosperity to everyone, and you will see those hobgoblins get no votes or money anymore.

As long as you don't respect their pain and values, and admit what you did in the past, you won"t get peace.


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

Stop talking bullshit about "Palestinian people " or what ever! there is no such a thing
READ THE 

DID YOU KNOW THE ARABS CAN'T SAY "P" IN THEIR LANGUAGE? 

DID YOU KNOW THAT JEWS LIVED IN ISRAEL MUCH BEFORE ARABS EVEN KNEW THAT THE LAND EXIST !? ( MORE THAN 3000 YEARS AGO)


SO JEWS THAT LIVED OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL ACTUALLY CAME BACK TO THEIR ONLY HOMELAND, IN COMPARISON TO THE ARABS THAT ALWAYS LIVED IN ARABIAN PENINSULA.

so the Arabs actually OCCUPIED ISRAEL
Anyway the only way to get peace by you words is to give WHOLE ISRAEL to the Arabs, what mean,- KILL ALL THE JEWS IN ISRAEL as the Arabs tried in more than 6 wars..

well i don't think that would happen LOL

all the other things you wrote are just lies...so just read the history the Jewish people, and the motive of the Arabs in all of their wars, what the Arabs wanted to achive?(clue for what they didn't want: israel already suggested them 97% of the " OCCUPIED territories"(that don't belong to any country in the world), armed them with weapons brang Ara-fat(lol), and how they reward them? with murdering of more than 2000 civilians... if you wanna know the real truth, 


BTW ,about hte " side effects" , how can you explain that arabs( and im talking about the FUCKING FOLKS not terrorists) STARTED to kill jews even before 1948 ?? ( it means you can't claim that any territory has been stolen HUH ?!?! 

in addition, jew never REVENGE because they dont animals like the arabs, all the did is defendingin this way:


> *Tower and stockade* (Hebrew: &#1495;&#1493;&#1502;&#1492; &#1493;&#1502;&#1490;&#1491;&#1500;&#8206;, _Homa UMigdal_, _lit._ Wall and tower) was a settlement method used by Zionist settlers in the British Mandate of Palestine during the 1936-39 Arab revolt, when the establishment of new Jewish settlements was restricted by the Mandatory authorities. During the course of the Tower and stockade campaign, 52 new Jewish settlements were established throughout the country.
> The motivation was to have as much Jewish-owned land as possible populated by Jews, particularly in remote areas, by establishing "facts on the ground." These settlements would eventually be transformed into fortified agricultural settlements, and served for security purposed (as defenses against Arab raiders) as well as creating continuous Jewish-populated regions, which would later help determine the borders of the Partition Plan.
> All of the major settlement groups (mostly kibbutzim and moshavim) took part in the campaign, which consisted of assembling a guard tower with a fence around it. While many of these settlements were not approved by the Mandate, existing settlements were not dismantled according to the law at the time. Therefore, the construction of the Tower and Stockade settlements had to be finished very quickly, usually in the course of a single night.[1]




ALL this is bullshit:


> You really think it's Israels right to do whatever it does? Think again.
> Please compare the death rates on both sides - you right the IDF should kill Israelis to decrease the ratio
> Please compare the wealth difference between both sides just look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saeky9I5T9c you think that if arabs had their own land they were more rich or something? look at all the arab countries all they got is oil
> Please compare the access to Fresh water between the both sites JUST ANOTHER LIE
> ...


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## Metal Ken (Jan 29, 2010)

supdoc said:


> DID YOU KNOW THE ARABS CAN'T SAY "P" IN THEIR LANGUAGE?


What does this have to do with anything? They dont call themselves Palestinians in english.



supdoc said:


> DID YOU KNOW THAT JEWS LIVED IN ISRAEL MUCH BEFORE ARABS EVEN KNEW THAT THE LAND EXIST !? ( MORE THAN 3000 YEARS AGO)


Did you know that the empire of Kush occupied parts of India 3000 years ago? Did you know that its frigging irrelevant today? The rest of the stuff you posted is so shoddily thrown together, I'll let someone else mess with it.


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> What does this have to do with anything? They dont call themselves Palestinians in english.
> 
> 
> Did you know that the empire of Kush occupied parts of India 3000 years ago? Did you know that its frigging irrelevant today? The rest of the stuff you posted is so shoddily thrown together, I'll let someone else mess with it.



IF THE WORD is not able to be spelled in Arabic , it means that that Arabs can't be "Palestinian".

about the other things.. its the right of attacked nation to occupy for defend itself. if you think differently it means that you are a hippie that prefer to die than save himself


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 29, 2010)

Well, you can call me a Liar all you want. It's my bad to talk to someone who is brainwashed.

I see more clearly now, why Arabs hate Israel. You even don't accept them as humans. You just kill them like bugs or rabid Dogs. And call it self defense.

Arabs and Jews lived there for a very long time, together, in balance. If Arabs would slauther Jews as you claimed, Jews wouldn't be present there at all. This is the price of living in Peace in so many years?

I am not Pro Arab, nor do I like their culture or values. But this doesn't make them less human, nor does nullify their needs and rights.
You can call them animals like Hitler called Jews animals. You do and react exactly the same way as the Fucking Nazis did. It's a shame on you! It is shame that you do the same big mistake as Hitler did. And we all know how Hitler and his power ended!


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## Metal Ken (Jan 29, 2010)

supdoc said:


> IF THE WORD is not able to be spelled in Arabic , it means that that Arabs can't be "Palestinian".



What the fuck does this even mean? We call Japanese people Japanese, and its not directly able to be spelled in the Japanese language. So does that mean people from Japan aren't Japanese? You're arguing semantics (not simitics) because you cant back your arguments up in an actual debate.

Shuld I Tipe Liek This so U can reed it?


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 29, 2010)

supdoc said:


> SO JEWS THAT LIVED OUTSIDE OF ISRAEL ACTUALLY CAME BACK TO THEIR ONLY HOMELAND, IN COMPARISON TO THE ARABS THAT ALWAYS LIVED IN ARABIAN PENINSULA.



If the Arabs always lived in the Arabian peninsula, then they have just as much right to the land as any Jewish person does. To be honest, they have more right to it than anyone of the Jews that ran off to Europe because they thought the grass was greener over there. If I left my home to go chase some dream, I wouldn't think I could come back there YEARS later and kick whoever was living there out. You need to get it out of your head that because you are Israel you are entitled to something that someone else isn't. 



> Stop talking bullshit about "Palestinian people " or what ever! there is no such a thing



Actually, anyone who was born in PALESTINE between 1922 and 1948 could call themselves Palestinian. PALESTINE was the proper name given to the region by the British after WWI in the British Mandate for Palestine. There are now children and grandchildren of those people living in the area and they are justified in calling themselves Palestinians.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 29, 2010)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> If the Arabs always lived in the Arabian peninsula, then they have just as much right to the land as any Jewish person does. To be honest, they have more right to it than anyone of the Jews that ran off to Europe because they thought the grass was greener over there. If I left my home to go chase some dream, I wouldn't think I could come back there YEARS later and kick whoever was living there out. You need to get it out of your head that because you are Israel you are entitled to something that someone else isn't.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, anyone who was born in PALESTINE between 1922 and 1948 could call themselves Palestinian. PALESTINE was the proper name given to the region by the British after WWI in the British Mandate for Palestine. There are now children and grandchildren of those people living in the area now and they are justified in calling themselves Palestinians.



Shh, that's logic. Apparently, we don't use that in this thread


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> If the Arabs always lived in the Arabian peninsula, then they have just as much right to the land as any Jewish person does. To be honest, they have more right to it than anyone of the Jews that ran off to Europe because they thought the grass was greener over there. If I left my home to go chase some dream, I wouldn't think I could come back there YEARS later and kick whoever was living there out. You need to get it out of your head that because you are Israel you are entitled to something that someone else isn't.
> 
> so just as you said , you make my claim more right. Jews lived in Israel B-E-F-O-R-E THE ARABS and you can't change the history.. sorry dude
> 
> ...


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## Metal Ken (Jan 29, 2010)

supdoc said:


> so just as you said , you make my claim more right. Jews lived in Israel B-E-F-O-R-E THE ARABS and you can't change the history.. sorry dude


Who's lived there longer? Moreso, does that matter? Ancient history a current country does not make. 




supdoc said:


> I DIDN'T say they can't call them self as they want, but they are still immigrant Arabs , In comparison to all the Jews over the world that wherever born - Israel is the only land that belong to them.
> 
> you don't must to recognized Israel as a Jewish state but you must be true with the history


If someone is born in Israel, they're a native of the country, if they're an Arab. If someone is born anywhere in the world, if they're Jewish or not, they are not natives of Israel, no matter how much you'd like to believe that.


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Well, you can call me a Liar all you want. It's my bad to talk to someone who is brainwashed.
> 
> I see more clearly now, why Arabs hate Israel. You even don't accept them as humans. You just kill them like bugs or rabid Dogs. And call it self defense.
> 
> ...


stop try to justify your lies and blame me for racism by talking about Nazis and bullshit.. i never said that Arabs don't have the right to live. i just mean that Arabs who murdering innocent people, are animals..

BTW, Arabs are killing arabs much more israel ever killed
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE OF ISLAM ONLY AT THE LAST 30 YEARS??? MORE THAN 288,000 !! 

IT seems that people don't really care about the reality .buy just about what popular on the media..


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 29, 2010)

You can't leave something and go back YEARS later and decide you want it again. The Jews did that. They LEFT Israel. Obviously it didn't mean all that much as a homeland until you got persecuted and driven out of other countries. If you guys loved that land so much then you should have stayed there. 

To the whole Palestinian thing, they are Palestinians. It isn't what they call themselves; its what they are. If you are born in the US then you are a US citizen. If you were born in Palestine then you are a PALESTINIAN, and for the end of WWI to the end of WWII Palestine was a homeland to these people. It was a homeland to these people all the way until the Israeli War of Independence. The place you call Israel now isn't what was given to you by UN Resolution 181. It is the land that you took from other places in the aforementioned war. That war is also how you guys came to occupy the Golan Heights but you say it is the people of Arab descent that want to take over the area. Israel gained over 50% of the original land given to it in UN Resolution by this war, and they managed to bribe the UN to not enforce the part of the Resolution that made Jerusalem fall under international control.

Yeah, you guys sure are innocent in all this. 


Oh wait, I forgot, you guys are Israel and you deserve to get whatever you want and whatever means of procuring it.


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> You can't leave something and go back YEARS later and decide you want it again. The Jews did that. They LEFT Israel. Obviously it didn't mean all that much as a homeland until you got persecuted and driven out of other countries. If you guys loved that land so much then you should have stayed there. you r showing us again and again that you don't have any idea about the REAL history, your sources are probably from the pro Arab press,
> 
> the Jewish people was deported from Israel, but after 3000 years of trying to come back to Israel, here we r ..
> 
> ...


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 29, 2010)

Let me reiterate since you decided to ignore my first post. BOTH sides in this have been wrong. The Palestinians have enlisted the help of questionable organizations to obtain a homeland again, and the Israelis have used questionable military tactics and pandering to other countries. I pointed out the Israeli issues because you refused to admit that anything had ever been done wrong on the part of Israel. Stating that doesn't make me a supporter of "Arab Murder"; it only means I have looked at more than ONE angle of this story.

Here is the link to the UN Resolution partition map that created an Israeli as well as a Arab state in Palestine. Detail Map:  UN Palestine Partition Plan - Nov. 1947 

And here is the history of divisions after the war in 1949. Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict) 

Jest read the bit about modern Jewish history. My sources were garnered through my university library and they are FAR from pro Arab. 

All I have asked you in this entire thing is to open your eyes to the fact that your country wasn't always innocent. NO country ever has been nor will it ever be. Israel is no different, but if you insist on defending your own borders because you think everyone is out to get you, then maybe you should do it with your own military equipment and money. If you want the Arab populations to respect your sovereignty then quite asking for handouts from the US and Europe. If you can't support and defend yourself on your own, then they are never going to respect you as a country. Perhaps they never will anyway, but you guys will never know until you try.


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

xXxPriestessxXx said:


> Let me reiterate since you decided to ignore my first post. BOTH sides in this have been wrong. The Palestinians have enlisted the help of questionable organizations to obtain a homeland again, and the Israelis have used questionable military tactics and pandering to other countries. I pointed out the Israeli issues because you refused to admit that anything had ever been done wrong on the part of Israel. Stating that doesn't make me a supporter of "Arab Murder"; it only means I have looked at more than ONE angle of this story.
> 
> Here is the link to the UN Resolution partition map that created an Israeli as well as a Arab state in Palestine. Detail Map:. UN Palestine Partition Plan - Nov. 1947
> 
> ...



Israel got along very well in 1948 war WITHOUT help of US ,Europe or any other outside help.. 

Israel is innocent because it didn't start in any war, its the ONLY democracy in the middle east, 

The Arabs citizen in Israel have the best conditions and rights in than any other Arab/Muslim country in the world..

so why The Arabs STARTED AT WAR ???????

well, you don't have an answer for that

you also don't say why thy murder Jews even before 1948,

it proofs that you don't know the reason for the conflict

why the do you think Israel should let it's enemies destroy itself? ISRAEL DIDN'T Declared war= that's why its innocent and taking it's enemies territories is completely fine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! + 
the Arabs should be thankful that Israel is moral, and doesn't have Nazi propaganda like their..

SRY FOR my POOR ENGLISH


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 29, 2010)

How can you be innocent if you kill more than got killed?
How can you be innocent if you use Unofficial weapons?
How can you be innocent when you already killed so many kids?
How can you be Innocent when you don't accept Arabs as humans?
How can you be Innocent when you just come and tell the whole world BS?
How can you be innocent when you Bombard UN buildings and hospitals?
How can you be innocent after immigrating so many Jews who are born in Europe or USA and call it "their homeland"?


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## supdoc (Jan 29, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> How can you be innocent if you kill more than got killed?
> How can you be innocent if you use Unofficial weapons?
> How can you be innocent when you already killed so many kids?
> How can you be Innocent when you don't accept Arabs as humans?
> ...


I'M NOT GOING TO REPEAT THE SAME ANSWERS,,, IT SEEMS THE FACTS DON'T INTERESTING YOU.. SO GOOD BYE


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## xXxPriestessxXx (Jan 29, 2010)

You didn't read that article at all did you? You had help from Britian and France in the 1948 war. They had interest in your success and they helped you. It says it there in black and white. The US has given you weapons and military tactics for decades now. No country has gained autonomous recognition from anyone when they got help from others. The US is a great example of that. We won the revolution with some help from the French. Subsequently the British thought they could come back later on and reclaim us in the war 1812. When we drove them out on our own, they decided to go about their business and leave us alone. It takes being about to take care of your matters alone for other countries that you see as oppressive to your cause to respect you. 

Look you can believe as you will. But to tell me this isn't somewhat propaganda (History & Geography of Israel & Palestine. Also... Zionism, Refugees, PLO, Terrorism, Arab-Israeli Conflict) is rather questionable. It all looks like brainwashing lessons to me, but there is no compromise with you. So if being objective in this arguement and researching both sides makes me a traitor to your ideas so be it. I'll sleep better at night knowing that I was able to read multiple sources and draw my opinion from different perspectives instead of just the one that suits either side. 

And with that I am leaving this arguement. We aren't going to argree on this EVER so wasting time bickering isn't productive in the least. My homework now needs my attention. 

AND BTW, this was in no means a personal attack on you. I have grown up in a place full of intolerance and to see someone say something that is even slightly slanted that way really gets to me. I'm also a pacifist, so all of this bombing on either side comes off as very wrong to me. I like to see people broaden their horizons and that was all I was trying to do.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 29, 2010)

supdoc said:


> I'M NOT GOING TO REPEAT THE SAME ANSWERS,,, IT SEEMS THE FACTS DON'T INTERESTING YOU.. SO GOOD BYE



Ofcourse they interest me, but you can't deliver!
You told me yourself that ARABS are not humans, so don't play the higher one.


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## Meshugger (Feb 1, 2010)

Oh dear, why do you people even bother to take sides? 

"The people of Dagon are more innocent! Ri'lyeh belongs to us!". "No, the people of Hydra are more innocent! Ri'Lyeh belongs to us!". Hint, your almighty Cthulhu doesn't care, since he's been absent for aeons.

No one knows who threw the first stone anyways. Comparing deaths in numbers, what does that accomplish? You can not measure whether ones suffering is more or less than the other, now can you?

Peace will not come by taking sides, unless you want to wage war and win. Then sure, fire away


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## Randy (Feb 1, 2010)

With the exception of supdoc, I don't think anybody in here (recently) has been taking sides, as much as trying to play devil's advocate or at least reinject some truth into the conversation after the bile that supdoc's been letting loose around here.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> You want israel to stop fighting nazi terrorist(read hamas platform) just because the terrorists can't kill more israelis?


The nazi's put jewish people on land surrounded by fences, and patrolled, they controlled materials going in and out.

Funny, that how when the boot is on the other foot, suddenly it is forgotten how you should not treat others in ways you do not want to be treated yourselves.

Abuse breeds contempt, abuse people and they will see you as oppressors, help them, raise their standard of living and make them feel like human beings rather than subjugated masses, and support for extremism dissapears. It is survival instinct, if you do not need to kill to survive or to try and attain a better standard of living, thenyou go into survival mode where you try to protect what you have, which would involve not letting extremist groups fuck it up for the masses.

As far as I am concerned, palestine is just a large concentration camp with people who were given lands as an apology for nazi persecution 60 years ago as the guards.

Also, to be honest, the whole thing is a clusterfuck involving a bunch of dumb ass people arguing about land holy to them, when, lets be honest here, they're just worshipping the same god.

The whole area is basically a sandpit in a playground where the retarded children have real weapons.


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## Samer (Feb 1, 2010)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Oh Israel, how can you justify:
> 
> 1) Shelling a UN aid convoy during a ceasefire
> 2) Moving 110 palestinian civilians into a house, then shelling it killing 30
> ...



I fully agree, great letter!


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## supdoc (Feb 1, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> Ofcourse they interest me, but you can't deliver!
> You told me yourself that ARABS are not humans, so don't play the higher one.


nope i didn't, only who support terror..(actually its including anyone)


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## Samer (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> just tell me what facts are wrong??
> 
> everything you can see there is what the media hide from the world.. just because it's popular to be "against the occupier", even if



All i can say about your statement that Arabs and Jews have always fought is thats its false; during the Spanish inquisition the Arabs protected the Jews from the Spanish.

Also if you go to countries like Iraq / Iran / Syria you will see a large Jewish population that has no problems getting along / living side by side with Arabs. 

The problems started when Israel started, its silly to say other wise. 

My self being arabic and havig a lot of Jewish friends, i have nothing against people from Israel, i just don't agree with the countries politics. 

The solution IMO is get rid of religions from both sides, and make a secular country every one can share.

Also stop being so racist.


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## Randy (Feb 1, 2010)

Samer said:


> The solution IMO is get rid of religions from both sides, and make a secular country every one can share.



I can agree with that in a big way, but I also think it's class warfare.

Amanda and I discussed this offline on a few occasions. I was telling her a story about this time I was out at the local watering hole... This place is smack dab in the middle of downtown, in the small town I grew up in. After we all graduated high school, went away to college for a couple years and found ourselves back in this small town, that bar pretty much became an extension of our High School lives. 

One day while I was there, chatting it up with a few of my old friends, I heard some ruckus coming from outside. When I went to the window, I saw a fight going on, with some guy I knew hitting and kicking somebody on the ground infront of the door. Worried about what was going on, I ran around the back of the building to see this guy beating on a girl who I also had gone to school with.

When we were in school, she was known to have come from a poor family. She lived in a bad neighborhood, her parents were on the wrong side of the law, and her brother was mentally handicapped and most of the kids took it upon themselves to mock them both openly. I befriended her temporarily and one day when I was talking to her, a friend of mine walked by and to her face said "what the fuck are you doing talking to her? You're above that shit, yuck." They said she was a criminal, a tramp, and I'd even seen them spit on her before. 

So, back to the present, and I see this guy not only fighting her but actually kicking her while she was down. Stunned, I looked around and saw the laughing or cheering faces surrounding the two of them... all of them the same familiar faces from school. I pulled the guy off of her and got security to break the two of them up. In the aftermath, they pulled both of them aside and kicked her out... after the cops came and went, the guy emerged from the backroom, with a pat on the back from security and a "you can stay, but be careful you don't get caught next time." Turns out the bar owner was a friend of his parents and they were also familiar with the rumors about this girl, and put zero value on her well being.

Sorry for the long drawn out story, but to my point, it's hard to not draw a parallel between the hatred against this girl and the aggression I see against the Palestinian people. All the spin aside, you see the poverty, the half destroyed neighborhoods and the charred building exteriors; all coupled with the terrorism on their part, the understanding that terrorism/crime thrive in impoverished areas and the image of Israeli forces bombarding buildings full of civilians with the intention of getting one or two guys. 

In either example, is anybody totally innocent? Absolutely not. In my story, I'm sure I missed that girl was probably hassling him in one way or another, and likewise, it's known fully well that there are Palestinian terrorists that target Israel. But what's also clear in both examples is an obviously lop-sided level of aggression used to "suppress" such an action. That comes from hatred, and any behavioral psychologist will tell you that. That comes from looking at someone as beneath you, and the villainization that goes on makes this apparent.

The kind of vile "there's no such thing as Palestinian people" and "all Arabs/Muslims (as if the two are interchangeable for some reason?) are hungry for war" talk has really set the tone. Here in the states, you hear a lot of this same talk by bigoted people when referring to minorities... "they're classless", "they don't belong here" and "they're all criminals".

Sorry, but I've seen this shit _way_ too many times to buy into the rhetoric.


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## Samer (Feb 1, 2010)

Randy said:


> I can agree with that in a big way, but I also think it's class warfare.
> 
> Amanda and I discussed this offline on a few occasions. I was telling her a story about this time I was out at the local watering hole... This place is smack dab in the middle of downtown, in the small town I grew up in. After we all graduated high school, went away to college for a couple years and found ourselves back in this small town, that bar pretty much became an extension of our High School lives.
> 
> ...



Yea its easy for ignorant people to make generalizations, because other wise it would require them to think. 

He has been told that Israel is doing the right thing, and its comfortable / easier for him not to question authority and just go with it. 

Its the same way people in our country justify torture / war in Iraq; its easier and more comfortable just to be ignorant. 

I commend you for standing up for that girl, you sound like a cool dude; do you have a facebook page?


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## supdoc (Feb 1, 2010)

Samer said:


> All i can say about your statement that Arabs and Jews have always fought is thats its false; during the Spanish inquisition the Arabs protected the Jews from the Spanish.
> 
> Also if you go to countries like Iraq / Iran / Syria you will see a large Jewish population that has no problems getting along / living side by side with Arabs.
> 
> ...





The fact that you blame specifically me for racism just because I'm against Arab terrorists shows that you are the racist ( the real racists are the most of the arabs who supporting killing innocent jewish civilians just because of their religion, I dont support kill any civilian, no matter if he arab jew or from any other religion )

Arabs attacked Jews before Israel started.. just because they were Jewish(&#1503;its called racism),more than 97% of the Arab population in Israel are support the terror organization "Hezbollah" which means they are racists, I don't support killing civilians,It will be right to attack to only the one who try and threat to destroy me..
want some proofs FOR THE FACT I mentioned (


> Arabs attacked Jews before Israel started


)

Here they are( READ the causes to the pogroms):
Jaffa riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
1929 Palestine riots - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There are some more, but i think it enough to clear my point against your LIES.




BTW arabs killed (and r killing)more arabs then jews, If they can't live in peace inside their society no wonder they can't live with israel in peace..


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## Samer (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> BTW arabs killed (and r killing)more arabs then jews, If they can't live in peace inside their society no wonder they can't live with israel in peace..



Phrases like that make you sound racists, you speak of Arabs as if they are savages, in essence dehumanizing them. 

That is the root of the problem, singling people out as us vs. them, rather than looking at the world as us.


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## supdoc (Feb 1, 2010)

Samer said:


> Phrases like that make you sound racists, you speak of Arabs as if they are savages, in essence dehumanizing them.
> 
> That is the root of the problem, singling people out as us vs. them, rather than looking at the world as us.


All im saying is FACTS and conclusions.. you are the racist that support Arab terror against Jews..
Why don't you reply to the *facts*? BECAUSE YOU racist that AFRAID TO ACCEPT THE REALITY


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## Samer (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> All im saying is FACTS and conclusions.. you are the racist that support Arab terror against Jews..
> Why don't you reply to the *facts*? BECAUSE YOU racist that AFRAID TO ACCEPT THE REALITY



I don't get it, are your trying to be funny, or are you trying to insult me?

I don't support any one against any one, i support human rights and minority rights regardless of what side it is. 

In the U.S. i support gay rights because they are being oppressed just like I support Palestinian rights.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> All im saying is FACTS and conclusions.. you are the racist that support Arab terror against Jews..
> Why don't you reply to the *facts*? BECAUSE YOU racist that AFRAID TO ACCEPT THE REALITY



seriously, you come here, write posts like this and expect to be taken seriously?

not a single post i have read from you has any resemblance of an argument, and when you can't seem to think of one you resort to the lowest common denominator.

1) You're both as bad as each other. Taking away people's right to live, and settling on land that isn't yours is wrong

2) Terrorist organisatuons shelling civilians on either side is wrong, no matter how you look at it.y that controls what resources go in or out is akin to a large concentration camp. If the people inside are kept at a level of poverty then of course they are going to be upset.

3) When you argue, please, please, please do not resort to name calling. Calling someone a racist is pretty much calling them out as a fascist, and you are doing so without any evidence.

4) You blanket categorise an entire people, and include other nations, as neanderthals, people who are lesser than you. Need ii remind you that hitler viewed the jews as an inferior people, much like you seem to view palestinians. Don't get on a high horse like that. It's hypocrisy on a level that is sick.

So please, think it over, come back, and argue without resorting to making letters bigger, name calling etc, and please make coherent arguments, and at least don't be pigheaded to the point where you are right no matter what anyone says, as that is the epitome of religious extremism and pretty much the same mindset.

Also, remember, israel, and that entire clusterfuck of an area is the most bloodstained place on earth pretty much, and all because some people call him jahwee, others call him allah.

In my opinion, you can call him what you want, but I do not think that any benevolent deity would look kindly upon either side's actions, and to me, the entire area is proof that no god exists.

3) A country walled in by another countr


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## daemon barbeque (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> All im saying is FACTS and conclusions.. you are the racist that support Arab terror against Jews..
> Why don't you reply to the *facts*? BECAUSE YOU racist that AFRAID TO ACCEPT THE REALITY



You are annoying! Stop accusing people with Racism, people who ask for peace and not war. Your Wiki post needs citation everywhere, without any proof of the violent acts. You just want to believe in what was told to you, and you fit the perfectly Brainwashed Scheme. You told the Arabs are that and this, and that is pure racism!

You really became the Nazis of the 21. century, and no sign of shame or whatever!

Oh and please do me a favor, stop calling people out as Liars and Racist, and using those stupid Font size games. It is Rude, shows lack of self confidence, lack of strong arguments to back up you political view.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> All im saying is FACTS and conclusions.. you are the racist that support Arab terror against Jews..
> Why don't you reply to the *facts*? BECAUSE YOU racist that AFRAID TO ACCEPT THE REALITY



Keep doing this shit and i'll give you a ban or two.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 1, 2010)

daemon barbeque said:


> You really became the Nazis of the 21. century, and no sign of shame or whatever!


That kind of rhetoric makes you no better than him. Any argument on the internet loses validity when you start comparing people to hitler.


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## supdoc (Feb 1, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> Keep doing this shit and i'll give you a ban or two.


 sorry god



7 Dying Trees said:


> seriously, you come here, write posts like this and expect to be taken seriously?
> 
> not a single post i have read from you has any resemblance of an argument, and when you can't seem to think of one you resort to the lowest common denominator.
> 
> ...


everything you wrote =lies



Samer said:


> I don't get it, are your trying to be funny, or are you trying to insult me?
> 
> I don't support any one against any one, i support human rights and minority rights regardless of what side it is.
> 
> In the U.S. i support gay rights because they are being oppressed just like I support Palestinian rights.


you are still racist.



daemon barbeque said:


> You are annoying! Stop accusing people with Racism, people who ask for peace and not war. Your Wiki post needs citation everywhere, without any proof of the violent acts. You just want to believe in what was told to you, and you fit the perfectly Brainwashed Scheme. You told the Arabs are that and this, and that is pure racism!
> 
> You really became the Nazis of the 21. century, and no sign of shame or whatever!
> 
> Oh and please do me a favor, stop calling people out as Liars and Racist, and using those stupid Font size games. It is Rude, shows lack of self confidence, lack of strong arguments to back up you political view.


lol nazi for what ? for telling the truth about the justified fight in terror that you support?

don't tell me you don't support terror, because you are. stop try to fake the history


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## Samer (Feb 1, 2010)

supdoc said:


> you are still racist.



How am i racist? I don't get it?


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## Randy (Feb 1, 2010)

Samer said:


> How am i racist? I don't get it?





Samer said:


> My self being arabic.



/confusion


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 1, 2010)

Supdoc, someone should slap you inna face for being such an ignorant fuck. Seriously, normally I'd engage you in debate but your radiant levels of stupidity has convinced me not to even bother. I mean, it's like FlyingBanana came back as a Zionist or something...


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 1, 2010)

^ More like Flying Bannana and WILLITH, seriously


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## supdoc (Feb 1, 2010)

Samer said:


> How am i racist? I don't get it?


i dont care, since when you started say that im racistm with no reason, i started to act like you.. you just dont care about the facts, for example, no one replied to my proofs the the arabs attacked jews even before israel started - it proofs that the conflict isn't about some " occupied" territories, its just about the racism of the arabs.. you just have nothing to say agains it so you say "racist racist rasict blalblabalbh"


so dont be surprised that im callign u racist 2...


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 1, 2010)

^ 



I cant wait


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## supdoc (Feb 1, 2010)

me2


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## daemon barbeque (Feb 1, 2010)

If Arabs where racist and wanted to kill Jews all the time, how come that Jews still ive in Lebanon, Syria, and all in the area since forever? Can't you just see how ignorant it is to claim that Arabs are Racists and want to kill Jews.
Before the Huge Immigration of European and American Jews began, no problem whatsoever was there. There are still many Jews in Lebanon and syria, and none of them have problems. I don't see Arabs attacking Jews in Europe or the U.S.A either.

You post some links and call it facts, where as those links doesn't hold water, or can't prove anything. You can cite Vatikan for the world being Flat, but it won't work!



supdoc said:


> lol nazi for what ? for telling the truth about the justified fight in terror that you support?
> 
> don't tell me you don't support terror, because you are. stop try to fake the history



How can I support Terror? I am the one who calls Terrorists hobgoblins, I am the one who try to tell you how to stop terror. I don't fake the history at all. Why should I? I have no horse in the game. But You!



supdoc said:


> in addition, jew never REVENGE because they dont animals like the arabs,



And this is the proof of your racism!And it definetly sounds like Nazis!



Metal Ken said:


> That kind of rhetoric makes you no better than him. Any argument on the internet loses validity when you start comparing people to hitler.



I have the right to compare anyone to any Nazi. We still have them around, and it's PITA. Shame that the Jews, who had the worse luck in history do exactly the same, use the same words, cliches, and do the same crime!


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## DDDorian (Feb 1, 2010)

Welp, so much for this discussion. Looks like hibernation time for supdoc, too. Goddammit.


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