# Most ergonomic bolt-on heel joint/contour



## Bearitone (Oct 3, 2018)

What guitar, in your experience, has had the most ergonomic bolt-on heel joint you've tried?

I'm using Fusion 360 to make a bolt on guitar and I've been looking at Jackson and Ibanez heel joints for reference. While they look better than fender heel joints I'm betting there's some really slick heel joints out there I haven't seen.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 4, 2018)

The joint itself isn't the issue, it's where the fretboard ends. If you configure the placement of the fretboard relative to the joint just right, you're not going to run into the heel no matter what the joint looks like. 

Look at old Yamaha Pacifica models, the heel is just a big flat block, but it's extended back so far you don't run into it.


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## Edika (Oct 4, 2018)

From the bolt on guitars I've tried the least noticeable and closest to a good neck heel feel has been the Ibanez AANJ. I haven't tried the new Jackson or the Kiesel heel so I can't compare. What Max says though makes more sense as the worst fret access I've encounteted so far is from my Gibson LP. That heel is even worse than bolt on guitars.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 4, 2018)

It also depends on how much you want to send. There's a whole thread dedicated to sexy neck heels. While most are neck-through or similar, there are lots of sexy bolt-on heels that look slick as heck, but are on guitars that are basically hand-built by, like, one guy.


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## cardinal (Oct 4, 2018)

Of all the ones I’ve played, the most unobtrusive joint is the Stephens Extended Cutaway. I had a Nuno N7, and I think I could play every single fret without my left hand ever touching the body. 

It honestly freaked me out a bit and was hard to get use to. I would lose my place up there because I’m used to feeling the heel as a reference point.


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## Bearitone (Oct 4, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The joint itself isn't the issue, it's where the fretboard ends. If you configure the placement of the fretboard relative to the joint just right, you're not going to run into the heel no matter what the joint looks like.
> 
> Look at old Yamaha Pacifica models, the heel is just a big flat block, but it's extended back so far you don't run into it.



Ah i see. the only trade off is the neck pickup is moved closer to the bridge but, i guess that’s more of a preference thing than anything else


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## Bearitone (Oct 4, 2018)

cardinal said:


> Of all the ones I’ve played, the most unobtrusive joint is the Stephens Extended Cutaway. I had a Nuno N7, and I think I could play every single fret without my left hand ever touching the body.
> 
> It honestly freaked me out a bit and was hard to get use to. I would lose my place up there because I’m used to feeling the heel as a reference point.



That’s a pretty sweet neck joint but would mean using much larger pieces of wood for the neck in order to have enough material for that half moon shape at the heel


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## Bearitone (Oct 4, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> It also depends on how much you want to send. There's a whole thread dedicated to sexy neck heels. While most are neck-through or similar, there are lots of sexy bolt-on heels that look slick as heck, but are on guitars that are basically hand-built by, like, one guy.



I’ll do a search for that!


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 4, 2018)

kindsage said:


> Ah i see. the only trade off is the neck pickup is moved closer to the bridge but, i guess that’s more of a preference thing than anything else



Not at all.

You're moving the location of the joint (where the neck mates up to the body), not moving the location of the fretboard (playing surface). 

What you would do, is sit the pickup on top of neck heel.


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## Bearitone (Oct 4, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not at all.
> 
> You're moving the location of the joint (where the neck mates up to the body), not moving the location of the fretboard (playing surface).
> 
> What you would do, is sit the pickup on top of neck heel.



Ooohh! Like how Fast Guitars does it?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 4, 2018)

kindsage said:


> Ooohh! Like how Fast Guitars does it?



I'm not too familiar with what they do, but it's a configuration that's been used for many years by some brands, going back to at least the 80's.


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## Floppystrings (Oct 5, 2018)

Ran


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## ixlramp (Oct 6, 2018)

Claas Guitars have the best idea in my opinion, but as someone here pointed out it could be improved: The neck end of the body possibly intrudes a little too far over the side of the back of the neck, the tip of your thumb might contact it. If this type of design is used might as well get the body completely out of the way, which is easily possible.
Also the back of the body at the base of the neck has a curve which means the area behind the frets is not completely unobstructed, again seems easily improvable.

Bolt on neck joints on guitars mostly disappoint me. It seems obvious to me that behind the full length of every fret the neck should remain at it's thinnest and be completely unobstructed. Apparently the tradition of guitar design is that the neck pickup needs to be as close to the highest fret as possible, and this is what ruins the design of neck joints and weakens the guitar in a critical area.

Considering the amount of tension on the end of the neck and the leverage, bolt-on neck joints almost always seem too small and too weak, with too few bolts. The Claas design seems to get this right.

I also find that the term 'bolt-on' is misleading, i was very disappointed when i discovered these are not actually bolts but just wood screws, no inserts. I guess 'screw-on neck' sounds too cheap and weak to use as a term, but that's actually the reality.


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## Winspear (Oct 8, 2018)

Placing the neck pickup above the neck as mentioned by @MaxOfMetal is indeed the only way to do it and keep things 'normal ' (at least, I haven't managed to think of anything else).
It does however mean a thicker neck blank to allow for the step-down shelf at the end, and you end up with really not much material making the joint.










You can see the solution without the need for a close neck pickup used by many bass companies:





PRS never really took advantage of the opportunity to shave away all that bulk and have the step-down inline with the actual body edge. I've been playing with a similar idea on my designs but with the neck not getting thicker until it meets the body and the fretboard ends.

I'm still not keen on the lack of material or needing a thicker blank, but it works and stability doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

What are the other brands that have been doing it since the 80s, Max? I thought of this joint before seeing the PRS and to date it's the only one I can recall - curious to see more.

@ixlramp how would you feel about the above design but with the last fret inline with the body edge, the neck remaining thin until the body edge, threaded machine inserts, and the tenon extending to between the pickups rather than just under the neck pickup? (Perhaps even gaining thickness again once the neck pickup has passed).

As a side note I've been particularly interested in minimizing the required height/thickness of neck pickup designs for this reason.


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## ixlramp (Oct 8, 2018)

Winspear said:


> how would you feel about the above design but with the last fret inline with the body edge, the neck remaining thin until the body edge, threaded machine inserts, and the tenon extending to between the pickups rather than just under the neck pickup?


Would be much better than what is pictured in your post, which isn't at all ergonomic because there is a deep neck heel long before the highest fret.

However what you suggest doesn't allow the neck pickup to be anywhere near the highest fret because there needs to be lots of room for a strong enough step-down.
Moving the majority of the joint to the side of the neck instead of at the base of the neck seems the optimum approach. A Claas type design still allows the neck pickup to be within an inch of the highest fret.

I suspect many brands avoid a side-neck approach due to the number of guitarists with bad technique who hang their thumb over the top of the neck :]


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## HaMMerHeD (Oct 8, 2018)

I thought about this a lot when I was designing my Paradigm bass body.

I came up with this shape for the single cut.



It is a deep cut.


There is enough room head-ward of the 24th fret that my thumb just comes to rest on the neck pocket heel when my pinky is at the 24th fret.
(And yes, I moved the bridge after I took this photo so that the strings are equally spaced from the edges of the neck.)


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## cardinal (Oct 8, 2018)

So the problem with having a neck super thin under all the frets is that the neck is very long and thin: so it resonates with the strings and the sustain can be terrible. PRS used to shave the heel down to the body but now leaves more material to try to make it stiffer. 

The Claas-type design is another solution to try to make the unsupported-length of the neck shorter to eliminate the resonance and deadspots. That design is more common on basses, which have super long scales and necks, and dead spots are a huge problem. 

Other solutions are things like graphite or titanium to stiffen the neck, but that still can resonate a lot. 

That’s why IMHO the big bulky heels survive today. They just sound better.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 8, 2018)

cardinal said:


> So the problem with having a neck super thin under all the frets is that the neck is very long and thin: so it resonates with the strings and the sustain can be terrible. PRS used to shave the heel down to the body but now leaves more material to try to make it stiffer.
> 
> The Claas-type design is another solution to try to make the unsupported-length of the neck shorter to eliminate the resonance and deadspots. That design is more common on basses, which have super long scales and necks, and dead spots are a huge problem.
> 
> ...


totally disagree, bulky heels survive because because they're far easier to produce, not because they "sound better". I have neckthroughs and set necks with just as much sustain as my prs mushok, and some that have even more. 
but since we're on the topic of unobtrusive neck heels, here's some of my personal favorites:
blackwater




parker




rick toone




conklin


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## Bearitone (Oct 9, 2018)

Tons of great ideas. I actually ended up modeling something similar that black water up above because it worked better with the body shape.


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## ixlramp (Oct 26, 2018)

Liutus Guitars have an interesting carbon fiber design http://www.liutus.com/index-en.html


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 26, 2018)

ixlramp said:


> Liutus Guitars have an interesting carbon fiber design http://www.liutus.com/index-en.html
> View attachment 64740



For a company so into their neck joint design they sure as heck can't be bothered to take pictures of it.


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## Bearitone (Oct 27, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> For a company so into their neck joint design they sure as heck can't be bothered to take pictures of it.



I know! I literally couldn’t find a picture of it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 27, 2018)

kindsage said:


> I know! I literally couldn’t find a picture of it.



Yeah, I checked their website, FB and tried to just do some Google-fu: nothing. Not even a side shot.


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## Zhysick (Oct 28, 2018)

I've been trying too. Imposible to find a single pic of the back of the guitar... Well, I guess I'm not going to spend 5K on that guitar if I can't see the back... LOL


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## ixlramp (Oct 28, 2018)

My guess is a very compact step-down carbon fibre neck that extends under the neck pickup.


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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 28, 2018)




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## 7 Strings of Hate (Oct 28, 2018)

Parker Bolt ons


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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 28, 2018)

So that weapon brand is definitely related, just not exactly sure how far. One of the Liutus endorsees runs the www.weaponguitars.com it seems.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 28, 2018)

The906 said:


>




Even then they don't really show it.


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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 28, 2018)




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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 28, 2018)

On a tangent with the Weapon but there is a neck joint shot. I think it lines up with the last fret, so ergonomic? Its not filling the palm but its not fattening up under the frets either. 


MaxOfMetal said:


> Even then they don't really show it.



No joke, they've managed to elude the 2018 internet.


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## Bearitone (Oct 28, 2018)

The906 said:


>



I’m baffled. How the f- are they attaching that neck?


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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 28, 2018)

kindsage said:


> I’m baffled. How the f- are they attaching that neck?



Not sure, set-thru style with that blocky tenon?


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## chopeth (Oct 29, 2018)

Floppystrings said:


> Ran



Indeed


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## Zhysick (Oct 29, 2018)

I love hi-tech things, I love guitars, I love carbon fibre... I love that Weapon guitar.


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## Ðupui§ (Nov 7, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Look at old Yamaha Pacifica models, the heel is just a big flat block, but it's extended back so far you don't run into it.



Exactly, Yamaha introduced the « total access neck joint » on their early 90s japanese models. You have literally no heel pocket in your hand so bending the upper fret on my 912j model feels like bending any other high fret.


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## ixlramp (Nov 7, 2018)

The top 5 frets still have obstruction behind them.

There's an assumption being made often with designs that when you play the highest notes: Your hand is in the conventional orientation and you are fretting the note with your little finger or the one next to it, such that your thumb is at least 2 inches away from the fretting finger, such that 2 inches of obstruction on the back of the neck is considered acceptable.

This is an understandable compromise mainstream guitars make based on conventional technique. But it's quite possible you will have your thumb directly behind the fretting finger, and/or have your hand in an unusual orientation to play a difficult chord (of course the mainstream assumption is that all that players do high up is 'widdly-widdly-wee-wee-wee' stereotyped guitar solos).

I asked Liutus guitars for more photos and details, we'll see.


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## canuck brian (Nov 8, 2018)

ixlramp said:


> The top 5 frets still have obstruction behind them.
> I asked Liutus guitars for more photos and details, we'll see.



If you look at the front of a Pacifica and then the back with this joint, it might traverse two frets, maybe 3. On my 612 i can play to the last fret on the bottom string with my index or pinky without an issue. If i compare it to any of my Ibanez's, the Ibby's lose hard on fret access. They're not even in the same league.


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## ixlramp (Nov 15, 2018)

My definition of obstruction is anything other than neck at it's thinnest. Looking at that construction photo it's roughly 3 for the highest string and 5 for the lowest.

Looking at Weapon Guitars FB page, these metal frame guitars have a metal tab that extends from the frame inside the carbon neck:


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## Defyantly (Nov 19, 2018)

Those metal framed guitars look like they would weigh a ton unless made with aircraft grade aluminum. I wonder what kind of tone that imparts as well does it resonate well with a carbon fiber neck attached to it?


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## laxu (Nov 20, 2018)

I am surprised how much I like the Kiesel Aries heel. It looks like it should not work but it's so slim that it just disappears. I actually like it better than the more contoured heels on some other guitars.







How far up the neck the heel comes has a big effect too. For example I don't like the Strandberg heel because it goes up pretty far even if it is contoured.


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