# McCain vs. Obama



## Chris (Jun 3, 2008)

Well, let's hear how you vote. If you aren't American, please vote accordingly.


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## ZeroSignal (Jun 3, 2008)

Done. 

I am actually very interested in the outcome of this poll. Nice one Chris.


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## telecaster90 (Jun 3, 2008)

Voted not voting, but if I vote, it'll probably be Libertarian. There should be a 3rd party option


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## ZeroSignal (Jun 3, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> Voted not voting, but if I vote, it'll probably be Libertarian. There should be a 3rd party option



Would it not be more effective to turn up on the day and simply spoil your vote with "none of the above" or similar? If enough people do it it will certainly send a message. Albeit a small one.


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## telecaster90 (Jun 3, 2008)

ZeroSignal said:


> Would it not be more effective to turn up on the day and simply spoil your vote with "none of the above" or similar? If enough people do it it will certainly send a message. Albeit a small one.



I guess this is true, but I'm going to be out of state because of school and I'll have to get an absentee ballot and go through a bunch of hoops to cast a vote that won't matter.

That's a terrible excuse  Honestly, I'm undecided if I'm going to vote or not, but if I do, it won't be for either of the two above.


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## Chris (Jun 3, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> Voted not voting, but if I vote, it'll probably be Libertarian. There should be a 3rd party option



Done.


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## telecaster90 (Jun 3, 2008)

Chris delivers, as always


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> Voted not voting, but if I vote, it'll probably be Libertarian. There should be a 3rd party option



god knows why, bob barr is such a dickbag.


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## ZeroSignal (Jun 3, 2008)

Chris said:


> Done.



Tastefully done, I might add.


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## telecaster90 (Jun 3, 2008)

Elysian said:


> god knows why, bob barr is such a dickbag.



God dammit, I just looked this guy up. He's a libertarian? Fuckin a


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> God dammit, I just looked this guy up. He's a libertarian? Fuckin a



he's THE libertarian nominee

you could always vote for Nader


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## zimbloth (Jun 3, 2008)

If Olbermann wants to run as a third party, then maybe we could talk.


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## Matt Crooks (Jun 3, 2008)

I will vote for what ever canidate the democrats run, simply because I don't want McCain nominating any supreme court justices. Other than that, I would take McCain over Obama.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2008)

zimbloth said:


> If Olbermann wants to run as a third party, then maybe we could talk.



keith should be Obama's press secretary. hell he almost is with countdown


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## ohio_eric (Jun 3, 2008)

I'm voting for Obama simply because I hope he can give us a clean break from the Bush-Reagan era that has fucked this country up royally.


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## NegaTiveXero (Jun 3, 2008)

Obama!


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## TheHandOfStone (Jun 3, 2008)

Your poll phrasing is biased. But it really doesn't matter, because what you said about the third parties is true. 

Nonetheless, if I were old enough, I'd definitely be voting Obama.


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## Popsyche (Jun 3, 2008)

ohio_eric said:


> I'm voting for Obama simply because I hope he can give us a clean break from the Bush-Reagan era that has fucked this country up royally.




+1 

Preach it Brutha Eric!


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2008)

I checked "American: Voting Obama," even though I won't be voting (because I don't live in the States), simply because of who I WOULD vote for.


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## Abhorred (Jun 3, 2008)

Naren said:


> I checked "American: Voting Obama," even though I won't be voting (because I don't live in the States), simply because of who I WOULD vote for.



No mail-in absentee vote? It's what my girlfriend does here in Canadurrr.


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## Lee (Jun 4, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> Voted not voting, but if I vote, it'll probably be Libertarian. There should be a 3rd party option



Even if you don't like any of the major candidates, at least go vote because you can. If nothing else vote for someone based on how much you dislike one of the other candidates.


I voted American: Voting Obama. I worked for his campaign, so there's not a lot of questioning


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

I am not an American, but if I could vote, I would vote for McCain. 

I don't want Obama to be the next Carter, who didn't have the political power while in the White House to get anything done. I simply don't see Obama is able to play the kind of hardball in Washington.


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2008)

Abhorred said:


> No mail-in absentee vote? It's what my girlfriend does here in Canadurrr.



Too much of a bother for one vote. And I'm from Michigan which almost always goes to the Democrats, anyway.


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## FortePenance (Jun 4, 2008)

Non American; Obama.

I would have done 3rd party if Gravel had won the vote.


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## JBroll (Jun 4, 2008)

I'd like the McCain of a few years back much more than pandering uber-neocon McCain today.

Jeff


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## Moro (Jun 4, 2008)

Non american, Obama.

Number of reasons, but the main one: I'd like someone who is in NO WAY associated to Bush or any of those cocksmoking fuckholes. Every time that a guy like that gets elected, the world suddenly feels un-easy to me, knowing that a fundamentalist wacko has his finger on the "End of the world" button. So there, Obama, if I had any voice on the matter.


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## K7_Munky (Jun 4, 2008)

Well said I agree with moro


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

But I feel equally uneasy when I know a rookie who is no more smarter than Bush in terms of foreign policies could land his fingers on the "End of the world" button.


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## Jongpil Yun (Jun 4, 2008)

American, Obama.


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## El Caco (Jun 4, 2008)

Going by the poll results so far I can only wish that everyone was as intelligent as guitarists.

[action=s7eve]wonders what the result would be if this was a 6 string forum [/action]


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> But I feel equally uneasy when I know a rookie who is no more smarter than Bush in terms of foreign policies could land his fingers on the "End of the world" button.



What makes you think he's a "rookie"? What makes you think he is "no smarter than Bush"? What would possess you to think he'd be capable of landing his fingers on the "End of the world" button? 

YOU might be okay with McCain because you aren't American and don't live in the US, but for one thing, McCain's 100 year war and the money he is determined to allocate to the military in Iraq means fucking over our economy even further. As well as a bunch of other results of his Bush stance (he really is just "G.W. Bush #2).

We should elect Castro as president of the US because he has so much experience.


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

Naren said:


> What makes you think he's a "rookie"? What makes you think he is "no smarter than Bush"? What would possess you to think he'd be capable of landing his fingers on the "End of the world" button?



While I don't think going to war against Iran is a good idea, but trying to make friend with a country where; its president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has said over and over about "wiping Israel off the map" is not smart either. 

Sometimes it feels like he doesn't even know what he is talking about, as an non-American watching how he views foreign policies. IMHO, he sounds like Carter to me, and I am afraid he might have good ideas and stuff, but won't have the power to get anything done if he is elected. That's all.


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> Sometimes it feels like he doesn't even know what he is talking about, as an non-American watching how he views foreign policies. IMHO, he sounds like Carter to me, and I am afraid he might have good ideas and stuff, but won't have the power to get anything done if he is elected. That's all.



And you think McCain does know what he's talking about? 

This may come down to simply our different worldviews and opinions on matters, but I cannot see how someone could see McCain's views on Iraq, "the war on terror," and so on as being good.


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## Metal Ken (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> While I don't think going to war against Iran is a good idea, but trying to make friend with a country where; its president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, has said over and over about "wiping Israel off the map" is not smart either.
> 
> Sometimes it feels like he doesn't even know what he is talking about, as an non-American watching how he views foreign policies. IMHO, he sounds like Carter to me, and I am afraid he might have good ideas and stuff, but won't have the power to get anything done if he is elected. That's all.



Our options are this:
A "Potential Carter" or another 4 years of bush-ism. 
Sounds simple enough of a choice to me.


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

Naren said:


> And you think McCain does know what he's talking about?



No, I don't entirely trust McCain either. Then again, based on what I've heard and read about his worldview, I surely do not want Obama for sure. 

On the other hand, economy is going to be a big deal for this election. I think it will come down to who do voters trust more between the two candidates when it comes to boosting the economy in the next few years.



Metal Ken said:


> Our options are this:
> A "Potential Carter" or another 4 years of bush-ism.
> Sounds simple enough of a choice to me.



It seems that way, Ken... so pick your poison.


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## JBroll (Jun 4, 2008)

Well, one we know will fuck us, and one could possibly fuck us... hmm...

Jeff


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## 7 Dying Trees (Jun 4, 2008)

Non-american would like to see obama win it.

Besides, why vote for McCain, he's about to die anyway, so you'd have to consider his running mate as the proper president.


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Non-american would like to see obama win it.
> 
> Besides, why vote for McCain, he's about to die anyway, so you'd have to consider his running mate as the proper president.



Not really, more non-Americans actually want Hillary over Obama.

But yeah, McCain's age is definitely going to be a factor down the road. It will be interesting to see who will he pick as his running mate.


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## Groff (Jun 4, 2008)

Metal Ken said:


> Our options are this:
> A "Potential Carter" or another 4 years of bush-ism.
> Sounds simple enough of a choice to me.



Obama gets my vote.

As for the Carter thing... Carter had NO BALLS, he was quite a complacent. Obama has a more active attitude. The odds of him becoming the next Carter are slim IMO.


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## Elysian (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> Not really, more non-Americans actually want Hillary over Obama.
> 
> But yeah, McCain's age is definitely going to be a factor down the road. It will be interesting to see who will he pick as his running mate.



i dunno who you've been polling, on the forums i post on all the non americans seem to love Obama.



TheMissing said:


> Obama gets my vote.
> 
> As for the Carter thing... Carter had NO BALLS, he was quite a complacent. Obama has a more active attitude. The odds of him becoming the next Carter are slim IMO.



Obama's speech last night showed more balls than i think i've ever seen in a democratic candidate.


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> Not really, more non-Americans actually want Hillary over Obama.



More Chinese want Hillary over Obama?  I would have thought they would be more for Obama.

I can only assume you mean Chinese when you say non-Americans because most Europeans, Japanese, and Koreans I've spoken to about it have said that they would rather have Obama. None of them wanted McCain (which didn't surprise me).

I'm assuming _you_ want Hillary and you apply that to all non-Americans.


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

Naren said:


> More Chinese want Hillary over Obama?  I would have thought they would be more for Obama.
> 
> I can only assume you mean Chinese when you say non-Americans because most Europeans, Japanese, and Koreans I've spoken to about it have said that they would rather have Obama. None of them wanted McCain (which didn't surprise me).
> 
> I'm assuming _you_ want Hillary and you apply that to all non-Americans.



Sure, I should've been more specific, and I meant Chinese people here in Hong Kong. Yes, I am aware of what she's said about how she might handle China if she is elected; but really what could anyone do? Bomb China? 

Do *I* want Hillary over Obama? Not really. I really don't have a personal fav in this election. I am for the one who would screw us (the world) the least.


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> Do *I* want Hillary over Obama? Not really. I really don't have a personal fav in this election. I am for the one who would screw us (the world) the least.



Well, that's the same here.

But we seem to disagree on who that person is. I think, out of all the people running, McCain is the one who would screw us the most.


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## Moro (Jun 4, 2008)

You really think McCain would screw the world the least? 

Listen folks, I don't know how you view the whole "foreign policy" stuff, but here's some truth for you: NO ONE is a threat to the USA. NO ONE. There's NO WAY that a country can mean business with you regarding war. And that's a fact.

Now, what's the real danger you see on Obama that you don't see on McCain? Because... I'd much rather have someone who is in the business of peace. That doesn't mean an idiot. If someone fucks with you, you show him who's the boss. It just means, say... Don't start a war over nothing. Or don't keep a war going over pride. Wich is exactly what McCain says he'll be doing. 

Don't you wonder who the people of Iraq would vote? I do. And I don't think that guy is McCain.


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

Naren said:


> Well, that's the same here.
> 
> But we seem to disagree on who that person is. I think, out of all the people running, McCain is the one who would screw us the most.



I am not speaking for McCain, but I think being a Republican candidate in this election is a disadvantage in itself. Metal Ken said it the best earlier. It seems like it is down to a "potential Carter II" or another 4 years of "Bush-ism". Ain't democracy fun?  

Speaking of democracy, today is the 19th anniversary of the *Tiananmen Square Massacre*. I don't think we will see democracy in China in my life time... oh well.


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## ogisha007 (Jun 4, 2008)

Non-American, Obama. Why? Dunno, he seems like a nice guy judging from some YouTube clips, and I don't really follow politics so I don't know anything about McCain.


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2008)

Azyiu said:


> Speaking of democracy, today is the 19th anniversary of the *Tiananmen Square Massacre*. I don't think we will see democracy in China in my life time... oh well.



Probably not, but the only people who can bring democracy to China is the Chinese themselves and I don't really see any Chinese trying to change their government. Of course, in light of Tiananmen Square, most would be too afraid.


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## Azyiu (Jun 4, 2008)

Naren said:


> Probably not, but the only people who can bring democracy to China is the Chinese themselves and I don't really see any Chinese trying to change their government. Of course, in light of Tiananmen Square, most would be too afraid.



Wish us luck and that's all we can ask for.


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## noodles (Jun 4, 2008)

Moro said:


> You really think McCain would screw the world the least?
> 
> Listen folks, I don't know how you view the whole "foreign policy" stuff, but here's some truth for you: NO ONE is a threat to the USA. NO ONE. There's NO WAY that a country can mean business with you regarding war. And that's a fact.
> 
> ...



QFT

Iraq was never a threat to us. Hell, neither was Afghanistan. Bin Laden just happened to be using it as a hidey hole. He's really from Saudi Arabia. Stupid Texan pride and bravado got us into Iraq, and the Bush family's unethical business practices keep us out of Saudi Arabia.

I think Obama said it last night when he said that diplomacy is always an option, tough diplomacy with a president who is not afraid to tell a petty dictator what's what. That was the attitude we took with Saddam when Clinton was in office, and that was the attitude that was working. Iraq is now more of a threat than it ever was before, because we have unstablized the whole region.


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## Drew (Jun 4, 2008)

s7eve said:


> Going by the poll results so far I can only wish that everyone was as intelligent as guitarists.
> 
> [action=s7eve]wonders what the result would be if this was a 6 string forum [/action]



 I used to be a regular over at Guitar War (now Musician's War - Search Results for " musicianswar.com "). Their forums were cool, and a great camraderie sort of feeling pervaded the place, but they were also VERY right wing. I was one of a handful of liberals. 

That's not why I eventually left the place - it was more lack of time and inconsistent net access when I graduated from college, and then that obviously I haven't been doing so much songwriting of late  - but it surprised and relieved me when we started to have political conversations here, and suddenly I wasn't even particularly extreme in my liberalism.


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## Sentient (Jun 4, 2008)

One more vote for Obama here. Voted for him in the NC primary, and I'll do it again in November.


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## Desecrated (Jun 4, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> Voted not voting, but if I vote, it'll probably be Libertarian. There should be a 3rd party option



In sweden we have 7 major parties and about twice as many smaller ones, I've always thought the idea of just 2 parties to be somewhat undemocratic.


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## Elysian (Jun 4, 2008)

Drew said:


> I used to be a regular over at Guitar War (now Musician's War - Search Results for " musicianswar.com "). Their forums were cool, and a great camraderie sort of feeling pervaded the place, but they were also VERY right wing. I was one of a handful of liberals.
> 
> That's not why I eventually left the place - it was more lack of time and inconsistent net access when I graduated from college, and then that obviously I haven't been doing so much songwriting of late  - but it surprised and relieved me when we started to have political conversations here, and suddenly I wasn't even particularly extreme in my liberalism.



i'm not even extremely liberal, i consider myself pretty moderate, and the MW people were too conservative for me to want to have political talk with


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## YYZ2112 (Jun 4, 2008)

Elysian said:


> keith should be Obama's press secretary. hell he almost is with countdown



So true. 

I watch Countdown every night.


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## Drew (Jun 4, 2008)

Elysian said:


> i'm not even extremely liberal, i consider myself pretty moderate, and the MW people were too conservative for me to want to have political talk with



 Dude, I forgot you used to be a member over there, too. 

Yeah, it was pretty crazy. I figured all guitarists were just conservatives and I was kind of a freak. Do you know if 8 years of Bush changed that place at all? I stopped posting regularly about 2003, back before things got really bad for him, so I don't know how much it changed...


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 4, 2008)

I find a lot of the political views on here to be pretty one sided and not moderate, I'm not thinking of anyone specifically but comments like "according to the poll on here it's too bad the rest of the county isn't as smart as guitarist". It's like saying anyone that votes other than for Obama is an idiot. I stay out of most of them beacuse when someone has there mind made up, there's no use arguing. 

I pretty much got personally screwed by the clinton administration through cuts in specific benefits when I retired from the Air Force. Imaging working for a company for twenty hears and retiring and when you started you put into a retirement plan with a guarantee of $1500 a month and when you retired they changed the policey to $900 through cuts in medical and dental. 


I also think NAFTA has hurt the USA more (financially) than anything any other president has done. (I mean actually done not just blamed for). A lot of businesses have left the USA for cheaper facilities and labor in Mexico. (Like Fender amps) That being said, I would vote for Obama if I didn't feel he was a racist, as it is I probably won't vote, just because I don't want to see Mc Cain in office either.... What a choice..


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## Elysian (Jun 4, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I find a lot of the political views on here to be pretty one sided and not moderate, I'm not thinking of anyone specifically but comments like "according to the poll on here it's too bad the rest of the county isn't as smart as guitarist". It's like saying anyone that votes other than for Obama is an idiot. I stay out of most of them beacuse when someone has there mind made up, there's no use arguing.
> 
> I pretty much got personally screwed by the clinton administration through cuts in specific benefits when I retired from the Air Force. Imaging working for a company for twenty hears and retiring and when you started you put into a retirement plan with a guarantee of $1500 a month and when you retired they changed the policey to $900 through cuts in medical and dental.
> 
> ...


why would you feel Obama is a racist? honestly? i'm intrigued, please expand on that


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## El Caco (Jun 4, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I find a lot of the political views on here to be pretty one sided and not moderate, I'm not thinking of anyone specifically but comments like "according to the poll on here it's too bad the rest of the county isn't as smart as guitarist". It's like saying anyone that votes other than for Obama is an idiot. I stay out of most of them beacuse when someone has there mind made up, there's no use arguing.



 You can't be serious, surely  If so lighten up mate.

I don't think that people who do not agree with me are idiots, I know it, surely you realise that my logic, that my intelligence is superior, it is obvious for I spell my name with a 7 and a small s.

Maybe you should reread my post, you can tell I'm deadly serious about this when I took a shot at 6 string players, it is obvious they lack the necessary intelligence to vote as they play an inferior instrument and how can you question the seriousness and deep thought I put into that post for I certified it true with a


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## Elysian (Jun 4, 2008)

s7eve said:


> You can't be serious, surely  If so lighten up mate.
> 
> I don't think that people who do not agree with me are idiots, I know it, surely you realise that my logic, that my intelligence is superior, it is obvious for I spell my name with a 7 and a small s.
> 
> Maybe you should reread my post, you can tell I'm deadly serious about this when I took a shot at 6 string players, it is obvious they lack the necessary intelligence to vote as they play an inferior instrument and how can you question the seriousness and deep thought I put into that post for I certified it true with a


those stupid 6 string players can't even count to 7


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 4, 2008)

Mainly because of his pastor. I don't believe his behavior on TV was not normal for him. A man that could be around that kind of stuff is not a person I would want to be around or have as president for that matter. I am white and my best friends are Japanese and Black, and yes he still calls himself black. I don't hate Obama or anything and I hope I am completely wrong if he makes it into office and I hope he does find a way to cleanly get us out of Iraq.


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 4, 2008)

s7eve said:


> You can't be serious, surely  If so lighten up mate.
> 
> I don't think that people who do not agree with me are idiots, I know it, surely you realise that my logic, that my intelligence is superior, it is obvious for I spell my name with a 7 and a small s.
> 
> Maybe you should reread my post, you can tell I'm deadly serious about this when I took a shot at 6 string players, it is obvious they lack the necessary intelligence to vote as they play an inferior instrument and how can you question the seriousness and deep thought I put into that post for I certified it true with a



No man, I wasn't taking offense or anything, it was just a comment I remembered reading through, but I was actually kind of reading about Drews experience with the other site where all the far right wing folks are. I consider myself a very moderate conservative. So hopefully you didn't take offense. I enjoy reading your comments and know you are a good guy......


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## Elysian (Jun 4, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> Mainly because of his pastor. I don't believe his behavior on TV was not normal for him. A man that could be around that kind of stuff is not a person I would want to be around or have as president for that matter. I am white and my best friends are Japanese and Black, and yes he still calls himself black. I don't hate Obama or anything and I hope I am completely wrong if he makes it into office and I hope he does find a way to cleanly get us out of Iraq.



his pastor is a completely different person, i don't see how his pastor would make him a racist? he was born to a white mother, his family is mainly white, how could he be racist? a self hating half white man? my step dad was as racist as it came, and i'm proud to say i'm not a racist, so i don't see the correlation


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## NegaTiveXero (Jun 4, 2008)

Yeah, I don't get how people keep bringing up that Obama's pastor was a crazy racist. It's Obama's pastor, not Obama. It's easy to hang around people your whole life and not agree with them or become them. 

I went to school in Kentucky pretty much my whole life and dealt with a ton of racist rednecks through the years, yet I don't drive a tractor to school or wear overalls and no shoes while beating my wife because she took too long making my sammich and beer.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jun 4, 2008)

i dont agree with everthing obama things, but christ i want to have this stupid war be over


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 4, 2008)

And, I understand that. As I said I hope I am mistaken if he makes it to office. To bring a crazy man that appears racist forward as your spiritual advisor makes you seem a bit crazy and racist yourself, is all I was saying. I don't know him personally or what's in his heart but I can't understand him taking any kind of spiritual guidance from someone like that if he didn't believe in what he was preaching.


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## shadowgenesis (Jun 4, 2008)

i would like to mention that i accidentally said "American: Voting McCain" which is just retarded on my part. I def am NOT voting for him. But i guess subconciously, i like his name more.


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 5, 2008)

I'm just glad Hillary isn't getting elected. It isn't really her I object to, I'm just picturing Bill as first lady, walking around in a sundress and bonnet..ugh


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## El Caco (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I consider myself a very moderate conservative. So hopefully you didn't take offense. I enjoy reading your comments and know you are a good guy......



It's all good  and thanks.


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## Desecrated (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> And, I understand that. As I said I hope I am mistaken if he makes it to office. To bring a crazy man that appears racist forward as your spiritual advisor makes you seem a bit crazy and racist yourself, is all I was saying. I don't know him personally or what's in his heart but I can't understand him taking any kind of spiritual guidance from someone like that if he didn't believe in what he was preaching.



You do know that obama has left that church now ?


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## petereanima (Jun 5, 2008)

i would vote for obama based upon the information of him we get over here. you know, the press over here says really nothing except "oh, he is black and most americans are redneck racists and will not vote for him, but they also won't vote for a woman so mccain will win". its really hard to form an own opinion on both of them over here, but overall i'd say obama is "the lesser of two evils".


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## Mastodon (Jun 5, 2008)

Obama wants to expand the government far too much for my tastes.


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## Elysian (Jun 5, 2008)

Mastodon said:


> Obama wants to expand the government far too much for my tastes.



in what ways? he doesn't seem like that to me


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I pretty much got personally screwed by the clinton administration through cuts in specific benefits when I retired from the Air Force. Imaging working for a company for twenty hears and retiring and when you started you put into a retirement plan with a guarantee of $1500 a month and when you retired they changed the policy to $900 through cuts in medical and dental.
> 
> I also think NAFTA has hurt the USA more (financially) than anything any other president has done. (I mean actually done not just blamed for). A lot of businesses have left the USA for cheaper facilities and labor in Mexico. (Like Fender amps) That being said, I would vote for Obama if I didn't feel he was a racist, as it is I probably won't vote, just because I don't want to see Mc Cain in office either.... What a choice..



Clinton wasn't perfect, but I felt he did a lot more for this country than the Regan/Bush era did. He was the first president to really take balancing the budget seriously, he listened to Alan Greenspan closely, and as a result, beat back inflation and presided over one of the largest boom economies in the history of the nation. Having said that, I felt his foreign policy was pretty subpar, and he got us involved in a whole lot of police actions that we should have never been involved in.

If you look at it from the terms of maintaining a budget surplus that you use to pay off the debt, then your complaints aren't as serious as you might initially think. That $900/month under Clinton was actually greater than the $1500/month you were getting under Regan, because your money was actually worth more. Now, with inflation rising and the dollar in the toilet, those Clinton-era numbers are positively oppressive. I'm not going to say that Clinton made the right move lowering them, but Bush made an even bigger mistake by leaving them there.

I'm with you on NAFTA. I opposed it then, and I oppose it now. I find it painfully ironic when I see blue collar workers in Michigan and Ohio supporting Hillary Clinton, since it was her husband that caused them so much hardship. I don't think full effects of NAFTA were really felt until a few years after Bush was in office--since the falling dollar made it more attractive to ship jobs to Mexico--but it was legislation that should have never been passed in the first place. Considering that we did nothing to try and force Mexico's hand against it's oppressive economic policy, NAFTA simply lined the pockets of the wealthy, and the poor still cross illegally in droves. NAFTA should have come with mandatory minimum wages in Mexico for all companies who wanted to export goods to the United States, since that would have made off shoring for the sole purpose of cheap labor much less attractive.

He wasn't perfect, but a lot of these changes happened when gas was $1.15/gallon and the dollar was worth £0.80. With $3.98/gallon gas and a dollar worth £0.52, suddenly Republicans can argue that Clinton was an elitist, all the while hiding the fact that their reckless spending is what turned a paper cut into a stab wound.


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## Elysian (Jun 5, 2008)

noodles said:


> Clinton wasn't perfect, but I felt he did a lot more for this country than the Regan/Bush era did. He was the first president to really take balancing the budget seriously, he listened to Alan Greenspan closely, and as a result, beat back inflation and presided over one of the largest boom economies in the history of the nation. Having said that, I felt his foreign policy was pretty subpar, and he got us involved in a whole lot of police actions that we should have never been involved in.
> 
> If you look at it from the terms of maintaining a budget surplus that you use to pay off the debt, then your complaints aren't as serious as you might initially think. That $900/month under Clinton was actually greater than the $1500/month you were getting under Regan, because your money was actually worth more. Now, with inflation rising and the dollar in the toilet, those Clinton-era numbers are positively oppressive. I'm not going to say that Clinton made the right move lowering them, but Bush made an even bigger mistake by leaving them there.
> 
> ...



gas was 98 to 99 cents a gallon almost all the time before i joined the navy in 2000... then bush got elected, and i finally got my first vehicle, and it shot way up(at that time was considered "way up" anyways) to 1.80 a gallon...


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

Interesting tidbit: this is the first primary season since 1928 that an incumbent president or vice president has not run for their party's nomination, and the first election since 1952 that an incumbent president or vice president has not been in a candidate in the general election.


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

Poll of polls shows Obama-McCain race tight - CNN.com

This is what Clinton accomplished. Her negative campaigning, refusal to give in when it became clear she wouldn't win, and dividing of the party has brought it to this.

It is very early, and McCain's worst foe is McCain. If he keeps touting the Bush economic and foreign policy, he is going to get tromped. However, considering how badly the Republicans have fucked up, it shouldn't be anywhere near this close. Clinton is the only reason for this.


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## ohio_eric (Jun 5, 2008)

The best thing that can happen is for Obama to accept McCain Town Hall meeting challenge. Obama should absolutely smoke his ass in an environment like that. McCain is many things but a great orator is not one of them.


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## Drew (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I also think NAFTA has hurt the USA more (financially) than anything any other president has done. (I mean actually done not just blamed for). A lot of businesses have left the USA for cheaper facilities and labor in Mexico. (Like Fender amps) That being said, I would vote for Obama if I didn't feel he was a racist, as it is I probably won't vote, just because I don't want to see Mc Cain in office either.... What a choice..



Welcome to the Democratic party.  Most of us aren't so happy about Nafta either.

I don't buy the argument that Obama's a racist because his ex-pastor is a nutjob, especially when you consider he was largely raised by his white grandmother, but at least give it a few months to see how the general election campaign plays out.


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 5, 2008)

Thanks Dave, 
Our views on pretty much all of that are the same. I do believe that Nafta helped to weaken the Dollar. And while the dollar and inflation have changed, I was in the Air Force the whole time Bill was President and the raises were very bad until Gore's campaign started and they wanted to buy a few votes from the military folks. 

I'm sure a lot of that was due to some of the older commanders in the armed forces that had been in during Vietnam and had openly shown disrespect for the president. So having my benefits and pay drop by over 1/3rd was a slap in the face. 

Having said all that, I will of course listen to what both candidates have to say and if I do vote, I will vote for who I think is best for the job. It doesn't matter much where I am since I think the California electoral votes pretty much always go to the democrat. That's not anything I've read, just something I heard somewhere...


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 5, 2008)

Drew said:


> Welcome to the Democratic party.  Most of us aren't so happy about Nafta either.
> 
> I don't buy the argument that Obama's a racist because his ex-pastor is a nutjob, especially when you consider he was largely raised by his white grandmother, but at least give it a few months to see how the general election campaign plays out.



Yeah Drew, 
I will be watching and hoping that Obama shows that he is a true humanitarian (like Jimmy Carter) but with the ability to get things done 
and not let either political party bully him.


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## Elysian (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> Thanks Dave,
> Our views on pretty much all of that are the same. I do believe that Nafta helped to weaken the Dollar. And while the dollar and inflation have changed, I was in the Air Force the whole time Bill was President and the raises were very bad until Gore's campaign started and they wanted to buy a few votes from the military folks.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of that was due to some of the older commanders in the armed forces that had been in during Vietnam and had openly shown disrespect for the president. So having my benefits and pay drop by over 1/3rd was a slap in the face.
> ...


LOL the only reason anyone i knew in the military supported bush was because of the raises we got while i was in


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> Thanks Dave,
> Our views on pretty much all of that are the same. I do believe that Nafta helped to weaken the Dollar. And while the dollar and inflation have changed, I was in the Air Force the whole time Bill was President and the raises were very bad until Gore's campaign started and they wanted to buy a few votes from the military folks.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of that was due to some of the older commanders in the armed forces that had been in during Vietnam and had openly shown disrespect for the president. So having my benefits and pay drop by over 1/3rd was a slap in the face.



For all of Hillary's stump speeches, Bill was the candidate of the private sector middle class vote. He arguably elevated more people from poverty into the middle class, and from the middle class into the upper class, than any other president. His support came overwhelmingly from their, and the college students and grads who were voting for the first or second time.

I've heard a lot of military and former military grumble about him, and often with good reason. I just find it ironic when I run into the ones who praise Bush, who also ran away from the draft and has hurt the career soldier (albeit in different ways). McCain's siding with Bush on issues like torture, Veteran's Affairs and the GI Bill is just sad, as one would expect a Vietnam War POW to fucking know better. 

Not that I'm condoning it, but the Clinton cuts in the military that your are describing were still within the scope of Regan's raises. That man did more for the enlisted man than any other president, and I can see why so many voted for him and the first Bush.


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> Yeah Drew,
> I will be watching and hoping that Obama shows that he is a true humanitarian (like Jimmy Carter) but with the ability to get things done
> and not let either political party bully him.



Man, do I ever feel sorry for Carter. Put ANYONE in office for those four years, and he would have been trounced in 1980. There really was nothing anyone could have done. Luckily for Obama or McCain, the dropout happened during Bush's term, so everyone knows exactly who is responsible for it.


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## Metal Ken (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I pretty much got personally screwed by the clinton administration through cuts in specific benefits when I retired from the Air Force. Imaging working for a company for twenty hears and retiring and when you started you put into a retirement plan with a guarantee of $1500 a month and when you retired they changed the policey to $900 through cuts in medical and dental.



Or, under bush, we can have our troops serve 15 month tours of duty and get threatened to have their GI bill revoked if they dont serve extra time.


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## Drew (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> Having said all that, I will of course listen to what both candidates have to say and if I do vote, I will vote for who I think is best for the job. It doesn't matter much where I am since I think the California electoral votes pretty much always go to the democrat. That's not anything I've read, just something I heard somewhere...



Please vote, be it for Obama, McCain, or some third candidate nutjob. I look at it like this - if you don't vote in an election, then you have no right to bitch about the guy who wins since you did absolutely nothing to put him there or to stop him. Democracy depends on voters, and sometimes that means voting against a candidate more than it depends on voting for one. 

All this talk about party politics aside, I feel better about the results of any election when I see record turnout %'s. At least that way I feel like the results are more in line with what the majority of ALL Americans want, even if I personally disagree.


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## Drew (Jun 5, 2008)

Metal Ken said:


> Or, under bush, we can have our troops serve 15 month tours of duty and get threatened to have their GI bill revoked if they dont serve extra time.



...or being ordered to pay back signing recruitment bonuses if seriously wounded in war, rendering them unable to continue to serve. 

"I realize that you lost a leg in Iraq and I'm very sorry, but really, you only served one third of your tour of duty, so please return 2/3's of your bonus."


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

Drew said:


> Please vote, be it for Obama, McCain, or some third candidate nutjob. I look at it like this - if you don't vote in an election, then you have no right to bitch about the guy who wins since you did absolutely nothing to put him there or to stop him. Democracy depends on voters, and sometimes that means voting against a candidate more than it depends on voting for one.



Actually, if you are a Republican, I encourage you to stay home in November.


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## Randy (Jun 5, 2008)

Drew said:


> ...or being ordered to pay back signing recruitment bonuses if seriously wounded in war, rendering them unable to continue to serve.
> 
> "I realize that you lost a leg in Iraq and I'm very sorry, but really, you only served one third of your tour of duty, so please return 2/3's of your bonus."



Another I remember hearing was about varying the disability benefits by "how disabled you are."

"Well, you only lost one limb instead of four, so you're only qualified for 1/4 benefits. Sorry."


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

ohio_eric said:


> The best thing that can happen is for Obama to accept McCain Town Hall meeting challenge. Obama should absolutely smoke his ass in an environment like that. McCain is many things but a great orator is not one of them.



It is really the only thing McCain CAN do. The guy barely has any money, and is going to get outspent wildly this year. Town Hall debates are a cheap way to square off against your opponent, and if set in more rural areas, are sure to be stacked with conservative voters.


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## Drew (Jun 5, 2008)

noodles said:


> Actually, if you are a Republican, I encourage you to stay home in November.



Nah, I'd rather have high turnout across the board. Democracy in action... Besides, I'm not too worried about McCain winning.


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## Elysian (Jun 5, 2008)

noodles said:


> It is really the only thing McCain CAN do. The guy barely has any money, and is going to get outspent wildly this year. Town Hall debates are a cheap way to square off against your opponent, and if set in more rural areas, are sure to be stacked with conservative voters.



he's also been talking about how they should share a plane... he's really in bad shape.


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

Drew said:


> Nah, I'd rather have high turnout across the board. Democracy in action... Besides, I'm not too worried about McCain winning.



Ok, so I thought it was funny.


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

Elysian said:


> he's also been talking about how they should share a plane... he's really in bad shape.



Yeah, I saw that. He's even joking about it. You gotta give the man credit, he's got some brass tacks.


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## Drew (Jun 5, 2008)

noodles said:


> Yeah, I saw that. He's even joking about it. You gotta give the man credit, he's got some brass tacks.



 It's a pity he pretty much sold out on policy. 

Actually, I guess it's not as otherwise this would be a close race. But he's the sort of guy at the end of the day it's hard not to like, so it's tough to hear him speak and know you want him to lose.


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## noodles (Jun 5, 2008)

McCain 2000 would have soundly tromped everyone in the GOP primaries, and would present a very formidable opponent to Obama. Clinton wouldn't have had a chance.


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 5, 2008)

Yes a record turnout would be good. 

I think its awful that the media is allowed to post any results before the last poll closes in Hawaii. I think if a person thinks the election is heading twoard one candidate, that they won't go out and vote feeling it's a waste of time. Add in the farse of an election that happened with Florida in the Bush/Gore time, it reinforces that. I think a lot of folks out west both democrat and republican didn't bother voting since they knew the election was over, before it actually was...


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 5, 2008)

Metal Ken said:


> Or, under bush, we can have our troops serve 15 month tours of duty and get threatened to have their GI bill revoked if they dont serve extra time.


That sucks.. I didn't see anything on that in the media. It wasn't the lack of raises under clinton that bothered me but the screwing at the end when benefits were cut for retiries. 


I do know folks that did their 20 years and applied for retirement and were told, "you can get out at the end of the enlistment but you can't retire at this time. Your job is needed too badly so if you want to retire you have to serve at least two more years". 


Also I went in in 1988 and enlisted for 6 years which gave me two paygrade jumps from E-1 to E-3. My pay with housing allowance was uner $1000 including food and shelter allowances. My rent at my first duty station was $550 which left about $100 a week for gas, food, insurance, car payment etc.. So I don't know much about Reagan increasing pay much. You were eligible for food stamps on what I made at the time.


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## Elysian (Jun 5, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> That sucks.. I didn't see anything on that in the media. It wasn't the lack of raises under clinton that bothered me but the screwing at the end when benefits were cut for retiries.
> 
> 
> I do know folks that did their 20 years and applied for retirement and were told, "you can get out at the end of the enlistment but you can't retire at this time. Your job is needed too badly so if you want to retire you have to serve at least two more years".
> ...


wow, my E1 pay in 2000 in boot camp was higher than that  E4 pay was fairly liveable, especially if you lived in the barracks... i never got E5 pay, even though i passed the E5 test, i didn't advance.


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## Bound (Jun 5, 2008)

Bound requires an additional poll option:

American: Fleeing to Denmark.

I can't believe the Obama support. He's a sly businessman and a beurocrat. He's going to 'change' this country about as much as Deval Patrick is reforming Mass right about now. I love how a catchy slogan, some rhetoric, and a well polished veneer has everyone swooning over this guy. Just you watch, and you people mark my words... if he gets elected president, you havn't even seen disasterous. You can commit this country to the void.


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## Elysian (Jun 5, 2008)

Bound said:


> Bound requires an additional poll option:
> 
> American: Fleeing to Denmark.
> 
> I can't believe the Obama support. He's a sly businessman and a beurocrat. He's going to 'change' this country about as much as Deval Patrick is reforming Mass right about now. I love how a catchy slogan, some rhetoric, and a well polished veneer has everyone swooning over this guy. Just you watch, and you people mark my words... if he gets elected president, you havn't even seen disasterous. You can commit this country to the void.



you seriously believe he'd do worse than bush? and what business has he run that makes him a businessman? thats a new one by me.

 have fun in denmark.


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## Bound (Jun 5, 2008)

He's slick and polished like a well trained businessman or beaurocrat. 

I don't think anyone could do worse than Bush, personally. But I don't think Obama will make this country better. Then again I don't think McCain will either.

I'm just shocked at the pole. I could rant on this forever... so I won't


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## Nerina (Jun 5, 2008)

Looks like Obama won, at least on SS


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## ZeroSignal (Jun 5, 2008)

Bound said:


> Bound requires an additional poll option:
> 
> American: Fleeing to Denmark.
> 
> I can't believe the Obama support. He's a sly businessman and a beurocrat. He's going to 'change' this country about as much as Deval Patrick is reforming Mass right about now. I love how a catchy slogan, some rhetoric, and a well polished veneer has everyone swooning over this guy. Just you watch, and you people mark my words... if he gets elected president, you havn't even seen disasterous. You can commit this country to the void.



Dude... That's a bit strong don't you think?


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## Naren (Jun 6, 2008)

Bound said:


> Bound requires an additional poll option:
> 
> American: Fleeing to Denmark.
> 
> I can't believe the Obama support. He's a sly businessman and a beurocrat. He's going to 'change' this country about as much as Deval Patrick is reforming Mass right about now. I love how a catchy slogan, some rhetoric, and a well polished veneer has everyone swooning over this guy. Just you watch, and you people mark my words... if he gets elected president, you havn't even seen disasterous. You can commit this country to the void.



 O... kay...

May I ask where you got these bizarre ideas?


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## Bound (Jun 6, 2008)

1. I don't really care for his policies. I think the best policies in the Democratic race actually came from Edwards

2. I don't think he's going to follow through on any of it.


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## noodles (Jun 6, 2008)

ChrisPcritter said:


> I think its awful that the media is allowed to post any results before the last poll closes in Hawaii. I think if a person thinks the election is heading twoard one candidate, that they won't go out and vote feeling it's a waste of time. Add in the farse of an election that happened with Florida in the Bush/Gore time, it reinforces that. I think a lot of folks out west both democrat and republican didn't bother voting since they knew the election was over, before it actually was...



I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I know that the media is not allowed to post voting results for a state until the state's poll has closed. Do you mean that the media shouldn't be allowed to post primary results for any state until all states are done voting?


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## noodles (Jun 6, 2008)

Bound said:


> He's slick and polished like a well trained businessman or beaurocrat.



So, if someone is well spoken, they are a slick con-artist? So, should we only elect bumbling idiots who stumble over words? That hasn't worked to well for us.


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## Benzesp (Jun 6, 2008)

The days of "Good ol' boy" politics are numbered (hopefully). It will be nice to have a well spoken president again. Honestly it's fucking annoying when you go to another country and all of your conversations revolve around what a idiot GW is... See ya...


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## Drew (Jun 6, 2008)

I was an Edwards supporter too, Bound, but I think Obama was far and away the least objectional runner up.


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## Thixotrope (Jun 6, 2008)

I support neither democrat nor republican but after I read the following article I will do anything to keep Obama out of office...

Obama plan ships dollars overseas â by the billions

Redistribution of land and wealth? It sounds like communism to me...

I know McCain has his own flaws but at least he doesn't want to use our GDP for OTHER countries welfare systems. He also doesn't identify with the current administration which is a plus 

Please everyone do their research before they vote! Don't vote for someone just b/c of race, political affiliation, etc.


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## Moro (Jun 6, 2008)

I can only hope the election goes as this poll went.

But what I really, really hope, is that someday, us, the rest of the world, won't need to worry who you guys pick. Not saying it is your fault about Bush, he's an ass, and he stole the first election (not sure about the second one though). I'm just saying that your votes affect much more than just the people of your country.


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## Bound (Jun 6, 2008)

noodles said:


> So, if someone is well spoken, they are a slick con-artist? So, should we only elect bumbling idiots who stumble over words? That hasn't worked to well for us.




I'm not just that he's well spoken, it's that his actions, words, motions almost seem so rehearsed, that there is no longer any substance to any of it. Having the power to sway the minds of the masses doesn't validate the sincerity of his claims. But being well spoken is a two-way street now isn't it? And it's a lot harder to judge a persons character when they act like a rehearsed robot.

I honestly believe he's not the best candidate from the democratic party. I think the reason the two of them got this far is because of the race/woman thing, to be honest with you.

I think pound for pound, if there were no gimmicks involved in this race, Edwards would have blown them out of the water. But no one even wanted to listen to what that man had to say, because the media turned this into a black man vs a white woman spectacle. Absolutely diplorable and disgusting, if you ask me.

So I guess what I'm saying, it is in my humble opinion that if Barak Obama had been born Ben O'Shea, no one would've even looked twice at him, because all he is, as far as I can estimate.. is empty rhetoric and a gimmick.

And I'm not even going to go into his preacher friend. I don't know what's worse, flip flopping on someone you call 'friend' or sincerly believing that you (purely out of political convenience alone) no longer agree with a man who's stance hasn't changed when he baptized your children, or while you sat through his sermons for years and years.


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## Elysian (Jun 6, 2008)

Thixotrope said:


> I support neither democrat nor republican but after I read the following article I will do anything to keep Obama out of office...
> 
> Obama plan ships dollars overseas â&#8364;&#8220; by the billions
> 
> ...



he doesn't? are you kidding me? he's endorsed by Bush, and he votes 95% of the time in step with what Bush wants, how does he not identify with them again? hell he even wants the bush tax breaks to be permanent, something he voted AGAINST. also note, on that bill that the article you posted about, it has a republican senator co-sponsoring it.



Bound said:


> I'm not just that he's well spoken, it's that his actions, words, motions almost seem so rehearsed, that there is no longer any substance to any of it. Having the power to sway the minds of the masses doesn't validate the sincerity of his claims. But being well spoken is a two-way street now isn't it? And it's a lot harder to judge a persons character when they act like a rehearsed robot.
> 
> I honestly believe he's not the best candidate from the democratic party. I think the reason the two of them got this far is because of the race/woman thing, to be honest with you.
> 
> ...


everyone has heard what edwards had to say. he didn't cut it in 04, he didn't cut it this year. i can tell you, that most of the people that voted for Obama, didn't do so because he was black, they did so because they, like me, wanted to believe in him. i personally feel you should pick up his book "The Audacity of Hope". its a great look into what makes him tick, and i personally don't feel you would be able to say the things you say about him if you had read it. its basically the Barack Obama manifesto, it lays it all out there, for everyone to see.


you also said "i'm not even going to go into his preacher friend", and then you proceded to go into it. heres the bottom line. you don't know how rev. wright has preached for the last 20-30 years. none of us do. its hard to judge a mans entire ministry on 30 second sound bites. its also impossible to judge a church community(which would be more prone to keeping me there than the pastor) which you haven't been to. for all you or i know, the community could have been wonderful, and been the main reason he stayed. he has alluded to that after all.


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## El Caco (Jun 6, 2008)

Oh dear  This is not directed at you Adam.


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## ZeroSignal (Jun 6, 2008)

s7eve said:


> Oh dear  This is not directed at you Adam.



Can I join you?


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## Codyyy (Jun 6, 2008)

Chiming in, with a big ol'...


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## Thixotrope (Jun 6, 2008)

Elysian said:


> he doesn't? are you kidding me? he's endorsed by Bush, and he votes 95% of the time in step with what Bush wants, how does he not identify with them again? hell he even wants the bush tax breaks to be permanent, something he voted AGAINST. also note, on that bill that the article you posted about, it has a republican senator co-sponsoring it.




I guess you don't keep up to the minute my friend. He made an entire speech on this topic many times. He wishes to distance himself from Bush. Plain and simple. 

As far as the tax breaks go...who cares? We get taxed enough as it is. Just wait until Obama gets elected. You'll be taxed to wipe your own ass to subsidize welfare for illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes. 

I don't care if God is co-sponsering that bill. Obama has little experience and will be stuck so far up the U.N.'s ass he'll forget what country he's president of. 

If you don't agree with anything else I say then answer a question for me...

Do you want to pay for other countries welfare systems?

It's one thing to pay taxes in your own country and have your fellow citizens draw welfare from it but when we already spend way too much in foreign aid Obama wants to siphon more off in to other countries that would rather wage war than harvest food. 

Fuck it, I'm moving to Australia.


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## Bound (Jun 6, 2008)

Personally, I think we all should be taxed more.

Anywhoo. Im throwing down the gauntlet.

This is all from his website.


> Cap and Trade: Obama supports implementation of a market-based cap-and-trade system to reduce carbon emissions by the amount scientists say is necessary: 80 percent below 1990 levels by 2050. Obama's cap-and-trade system will require all pollution credits to be auctioned. A 100 percent auction ensures that all polluters pay for every ton of emissions they release, rather than giving these emission rights away to coal and oil companies. Some of the revenue generated by auctioning allowances will be used to support the development of clean energy, to invest in energy efficiency improvements, and to address transition costs, including helping American workers affected by this economic transition.



Yeah that sounds good about now, let's squeeze out jobs and eliminate them altogther. Sounds great now that the unemployment rate is at 5.5%. God forbid we put up some Nuclear power plants and created some jobs.



> Invest $150 Billion over 10 Years in Clean Energy: Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid. A principal focus of this fund will be devoted to ensuring that technologies that are developed in the U.S. are rapidly commercialized in the U.S. and deployed around the globe



coal plants???? why are we still talking about coal. This is 2008 for christ sake. Nuclear power. Digital Electric Grid? Yeah, good luck changing the enitre energy delivery system. Why not just alter what's behind it? Where are we getting the money for all of this anyways. I'm only two paragraphs in. 



> Double Energy Research and Development Funding: Obama will double science and research funding for clean energy projects including those that make use of our biomass, solar and wind resources.



I'm sorry, but bio-fuels are the dumbest shit I've ever hear of. God forbid we mandated R&D into hyrdogen fuel cells. Holy shit more jobs? Clean Fuel? Sounds too good, so we won't do it. Solor Voltaics are the least cost effective energy source ever. By the time you pay them off, you need to replace them. That's viable.



> Invest in a Skilled Clean Technologies Workforce: Obama will use proceeds from the cap-and-trade auction program to invest in job training and transition programs to help workers and industries adapt to clean technology development and production. Obama will also create an energy-focused Green Jobs Corps to connect disconnected and disadvantaged youth with job skills for a high-growth industry.



That's a nice wishy-washy way of saying, 'We know your daddy is going to get laid off because of this, but we'll move your family two states away and pay you half the wage'



> Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology: Obama will significantly increase the resources devoted to the commercialization and deployment of low-carbon coal technologies. Obama will consider whatever policy tools are necessary, including standards that ban new traditional coal facilities, to ensure that we move quickly to commercialize and deploy low carbon coal technology.



For the love of christ with the coal. What the hell is wrong with Nuclear facilites? It's not like the people who work on our aircraft carriers and submarines are coming home glowing green.



> Deploy Cellulosic Ethanol: Obama will invest federal resources, including tax incentives, cash prizes and government contracts into developing the most promising technologies with the goal of getting the first two billion gallons of cellulosic ethanol into the system by 2013



Because america still doesn't want to feed it's people, we'd rather burn that shit in our cars YEEEEHAAAAW



> Help Americans Grab a Hold of and Climb the Job Ladder: Obama will invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce.



wow, we're spending more money. Where's it all coming from. We already have places to help you succeed. It's called school. If it didn't work once, it's not gonna work again. Believe me, I deal with section 8 people all the time, and the last thing they want is to get educated and work. They'd rather get a free ride and play Xbox all day.



> Provide Tax Relief: Obama will provide all low and middle-income workers a $500 Making Work Pay tax credit to offset the payroll tax those workers pay in every paycheck. Obama will also eliminate taxes for seniors making under $50,000 per year.



great, but you failed to mention you'll have to raise my taxes by 3% to pay for all of these programs, so you're still taking more money from me. 



> Create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund: Obama will create an Affordable Housing Trust Fund to develop affordable housing in mixed-income neighborhoods



spending yet more money we don't have. Right now you can buy income property from 40g's. If you can't flip for that...... and again.. if we're not paying for it, are we borrowing all of this from China??? That'll do the dollar good.



> Pay Inequity Continues: For every $1.00 earned by a man, the average woman receives only 77 cents, while African American women only get 67 cents and Latinas receive only 57 cents.



I'd like to see where these statistics are coming from, personally. My girl makes more than I do. woOt



> Hate Crimes on the Rise: The number of hate crimes increased nearly 8 percent to 7,700 incidents in 2006.



see I hate how they do shit like this. The number increased, because in 06 they changed the definations of what constitutes a hate crime. I'm sure if you look at similar violent crimes, this is skewed.



> Expand Hate Crimes Statutes
> 
> Obama will strengthen federal hate crimes legislation, expand hate crimes protection by passing the Matthew Shepherd Act, and reinvigorate enforcement at the Department of Justice's Criminal Section.



I bet the percentages will increase.



> Eliminate Sentencing Disparities
> 
> Obama believes the disparity between sentencing crack and powder-based cocaine is wrong and should be completely eliminated.



ca ca yeeeaaaah. Who's got a lighter?



> Bringing Our Troops Home
> 
> Obama will immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq. He will remove one to two combat brigades each month, and have all of our combat brigades out of Iraq within 16 months. Obama will make it clear that we will not build any permanent bases in Iraq. He will keep some troops in Iraq to protect our embassy and diplomats; if al Qaeda attempts to build a base within Iraq, he will keep troops in Iraq or elsewhere in the region to carry out targeted strikes on al Qaeda.



because a destabilized Iraq, is a happy Iraq. Now I was never for the war, but we need to finish it right, now that it's here. And just walking away is going to have some fucked up reprecussions.



> Humanitarian Initiative
> 
> Obama believes that America has a moral and security responsibility to confront Iraq&#8217;s humanitarian crisis &#8212; two million Iraqis are refugees; two million more are displaced inside their own country. Obama will form an international working group to address this crisis. He will provide at least $2 billion to expand services to Iraqi refugees in neighboring countries, and ensure that Iraqis inside their own country can find a safe-haven



Because spending money on the military to preserve the peace is a waste, so instead we'll try to maintain some sense of order and security by throwing crates of food into the melee. We will also build new bomb proof schools, that won't be policed and will most likely be blown up from the inside anyways. God the loopholes are killing me.



> Regional Diplomacy
> 
> Obama will launch the most aggressive diplomatic effort in recent American history to reach a new compact on the stability of Iraq and the Middle East. This effort will include all of Iraq&#8217;s neighbors &#8212; including Iran and Syria. This compact will aim to secure Iraq&#8217;s borders; keep neighboring countries from meddling inside Iraq; isolate al Qaeda; support reconciliation among Iraq&#8217;s sectarian groups; and provide financial support for Iraq&#8217;s reconstruction



our army is gone, but you kids better play nice. Or we'll just send in UN peacekeepers, who will just drive around in trucks and not really do a whole heck of a lot. You know, like in Africa.

I was going to start in on his economic plans, but this is all just making me angry. The jobs he early said he was going to destroy with taxes and stringent government control, he's going to spend more money on creating jobs in that same sector. what?

Oh and you get 500 bucks if you own a home. Yipee 500 bucks! That'll put a dent in er.

I can't take anymore right now....


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## Chris (Jun 6, 2008)

So what you're saying is that you'd be perfectly happy if the downward slide that W has put us in for the last 8 years continues, and you won't rest until the 1% of the world that doesn't hate America joins the "Fuck the USA" bandwagon? Because if McCain wins, guess what, you'll get your wish.


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## Chris (Jun 6, 2008)

> Yeah that sounds good about now, let's squeeze out jobs and eliminate them altogther. Sounds great now that the unemployment rate is at 5.5%. God forbid we put up some Nuclear power plants and created some jobs.



I live 3 miles from Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant. Anyone that lives around here is afraid of it. You drive to the beach and you see big signs that say "NO EVACUATION POSSIBLE" all over the place in 20 foot tall letters. You can't just whip up a nuke plant anywhere.



> For the love of christ with the coal. What the hell is wrong with Nuclear facilites? It's not like the people who work on our aircraft carriers and submarines are coming home glowing green.



Coal is realistic. Dropping Chernobyls into the heartland is not.



> wow, we're spending more money. Where's it all coming from. We already have places to help you succeed. It's called school. If it didn't work once, it's not gonna work again. Believe me, I deal with section 8 people all the time, and the last thing they want is to get educated and work. They'd rather get a free ride and play Xbox all day.



Because people with high school diplomas are just raking in the cake nowadays, right? 




> spending yet more money we don't have. Right now you can buy income property from 40g's. If you can't flip for that...... and again.. if we're not paying for it, are we borrowing all of this from China??? That'll do the dollar good



You can't buy shit around here for 40g's. In the city, 40g's gets you a parking space. For a couple of years.



> because a destabilized Iraq, is a happy Iraq. Now I was never for the war, but we need to finish it right, now that it's here. And just walking away is going to have some fucked up reprecussions.



As someone who's been to Iraq and has seen people shot to pieces, as well as someone who has friends who never came back from Iraq, if you think we should just keep funneling soldiers over there, I urge you to enlist and head on over.



> Because spending money on the military to preserve the peace is a waste, so instead we'll try to maintain some sense of order and security by throwing crates of food into the melee. We will also build new bomb proof schools, that won't be policed and will most likely be blown up from the inside anyways. God the loopholes are killing me.



Your pessimistic outlook on everything (to quote you: "It's called school. If it didn't work once, it's not gonna work again") doesn't mean that nobody should try to change things. If you're so happy with the status quo, vote for McBush.



> Oh and you get 500 bucks if you own a home. Yipee 500 bucks! That'll put a dent in er.



Just like the $600 that I didn't qualify for did for everyone else, right?


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## ChrisPcritter (Jun 6, 2008)

noodles said:


> I'm not sure what you're talking about here. I know that the media is not allowed to post voting results for a state until the state's poll has closed. Do you mean that the media shouldn't be allowed to post primary results for any state until all states are done voting?



Yes, that's what I mean. I think broadcasting results on the eastern states as they finish voting effects the votes from the western states. If you think your candidate already has it in the bag why vote? If you think your candidtae doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of winning because the media already says it's over, why vote.. 

I don't think the media should have any access to any figures until the last poll closes. Honestly, I think it (incorrect news reports) cost Gore the election eight years ago.. I think all the polls and BS that most of the media puts out is enough, we don't need them influencing voter turnout..


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## Bound (Jun 7, 2008)

> I live 3 miles from Seabrook Nuclear Power Plant. Anyone that lives around here is afraid of it. You drive to the beach and you see big signs that say "NO EVACUATION POSSIBLE" all over the place in 20 foot tall letters. You can't just whip up a nuke plant anywhere.



If people are really that scared, which I think is rediculous- we can build them in isolated areas. Hell if the government will allow me, I'll build a house right on top of Seabrooks reactor. I honestly believe that to solve the eneregy crisis we need to stop burning fossil fuels. Like now. our CO emissions are the highest this has ever seen. I don't know if you know anything about the Carbon cycle on this planet, but we're 2 times past the initiation of a heat up// ice age. We have the technologies availible to us to stop what we're doing and actually usher in new change. Instead what's going to happen, is in an every worsening economy, We are going to force our current infrastructre to modify or pay penalties. Either way, it's going to simply drive up energy costs.



> Coal is realistic. Dropping Chernobyls into the heartland is not.



See, I feel that is a viable option to have an energy source that produces limited waste. There's no changing what happened in the past, but we should instread try to grow from what happened. I find it hard to beleive we don't have the technology or know how install safetly measures to prevent such a catastrophy.



> Because people with high school diplomas are just raking in the cake nowadays, right?



I honestly don't feel that implementing education programs and spending more money is going to help certain people. This all goes back to 'where there's a will there's a way'. My dad put himself through school supporting his wife and child at the age of 23. My mom went to school when he finished his. They did this working as a counter salesperson and waitress, respectively. I know a lot of people who have done things like this. Single mothers who've put themselves through nursing school. Single fathers who've put themselves through trade school, making peanuts for money.
All these 'education' and 'no one left behind' programs are crazy to me. The problem isn't the education available. I believe theres a deep rooted social and family problem in this country that isn't going to be changed by the tools availible. We have the necessary tools at our fingertips- It's wether or not the person wants to use them or not.



> You can't buy shit around here for 40g's. In the city, 40g's gets you a parking space. For a couple of years.



Property is the lowest it's ever been. It's actually more affordable then ever. Maybe not in the Largest of cities, but everywhere else it's dirt. And Mass is still high, following the national trend.



> As someone who's been to Iraq and has seen people shot to pieces, as well as someone who has friends who never came back from Iraq, if you think we should just keep funneling soldiers over there, I urge you to enlist and head on over.



I ever several friends who've done a couple of tours each. I'm only going to talk about one because I could probably sit down with all of them and write a book. A good friend of mine was a gunner on a Humvee stationed right in Baghdad. He was there from the beggining of the war, and came back just short of ending his second tour. The hummer was hit, and he was the only one from his crew that came back. Now he's seen a lot of crazy shit, and he's killed a few people. But he honestly believes that what he and his bretheren over there is doing some good. He doens't really know or think if it's right or moral, but he feels like it's doing something.

Now- we throw all those american lives to wind

Barak's Fantasy Plan- We're going to pull out. Just get em out of there. We're going to meet with radical insurgents and tell them to behave and they will. We're going to tell the government to be civil with insurection memebers and they will. We're going to spend just as much on aid, as we are the military.

What's actually going to happen- We're going to just up and leave. The insurrection will continue with a ferver the people of Iraq have never seen before. You can add more to the list of 2million already displaced. The new radical governement will take all of our aid for itself and continue to persecute people who don't follow their political and idealogical views. Hey this sounds like somwhere I know.... oh yeah we did this in Somalia for years back in the 90's. Wasn't that fun? Giving food to the tyrant God-Kings, while people starve around them. That worked well....

I really was never for the war. It was the wrong war to start. But you know what, we're engaged in it and we need to finish it appropriately. No matter how you feel about the situation, now, we cannot abandon millions of people. We can't. It'll only make the situation worse over there. It's not like we're leaving a people are just made at us, It's a full blown insurection and it won't stop when we leave. The situation really needs someone who will do what needs to be done, and not what the masses want to hear.



> Your pessimistic outlook on everything (to quote you: "It's called school. If it didn't work once, it's not gonna work again") doesn't mean that nobody should try to change things. If you're so happy with the status quo, vote for McBush.



I know a lot of people who didn't get handouts, come from poor parents, who worked their asses off to put themselves through school and get some training. Again, there's no lack of tools at your disposal. There is a serious social problem with this country. Our way of thinking is skewed. Big business is killing the lower class. There is a deep rooted problem behind peoples self-destructive tendencies and it really isn't the education we're getting.

Plus, wether you want to admit it or not, there are a lot of people out there, who when given the oppurtunity to work or to loaf off government programming- would rather take the handout and be technically poor, while haveing everything they need for survival. Like I said, I deal with a lot of section 8 people in my area... and you know what they have a lot of crap that I don't even have and I've been in the workforce for 8 years now. It's a standard to see at least one 42" LCD tv, courtesy of your tax dollars. Why would you work when you can get stuff like that for free? That or they deal drugs, and collect benes.

The only program in my experience that seems to work is one that involves getting drug offenders back on their feet after being incarcerated. I think a lot if it, though, has to do with the fact that it's not a 'free-ride'. They need to work at program center and they need to hold a job, which contributes to their bills. They really help these guys out a lot and they seem to respond really well to it. But it's not a handout.

You know what, I don't think McCain is the person we really need for the situation at hand, but I don't think he'll royaly screw anything up either.



> Just like the $600 that I didn't qualify for did for everyone else, right?



Gifts and handouts from the government are such a stupid cop out. That Bush's economic stimulus hit just in time for the unemploment rate to climb again. It's doing good... it's doing good. You know what the government can do the help the economy. Raise GDP numbers. Produce more exports. Give American companies incentive to remain American companies and stop outsourcing everything( which Barak's upper tax will only worsen, tax em more so they leave! There's a good way to make jobs) STOP BURNING THE CORN FOR THE LOVE OF GOD! Why no one has the balls to implement something like " Mandatory Hydrogen Fuel Cell by 2020" is beyond me. Why are we still burning stuff. Are we really still monkeys?


What I got out of the website yesterday was this:

We're going to increase government spending. A lot. We're going to tax the middle class less(okay I'm down with that). We're going to tax business more and provide them with incentive to outsource. We're going to give those same businesses a tax incentive to stay abroad. Okay, we're back at square one, spending more money and not taking anymore in.

Any one of his policies sounds fantastic has a standalone statement, but when you start cross-referencing them and apply them to a politcal system in progress, it all falls apart. There's so many loopholes it's amazing.


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## El Caco (Jun 7, 2008)

Rather than wasting my time reading and arguing everything you have said I will only address the first to point out that you need to research a little more before arguing ignorantly.

We have the technology today in multiple formats to produce zero emission engines that produce zero waste and are able to run on virtually any fuel, we have an environmental situation where we are literally disposing fuel and yet you argue that Nuclear power is a better solution.

Look up Pritchard Steam, a company that receives virtually no funding or support, learn a bit about the clean, cheap environmentally sound power alternatives available and then come back and tell me what the Government should be investing in.


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## Bound (Jun 7, 2008)

Listen the point is this with the whole energy thing is that if we really want to change what we're doing, burning fossil fuels shouldn't even be a consideration.

This should start at the home level. 
Institute funding for alternative energies for home heating. Geothermal heat exchangers are absolutely amazing. Okay now you have an electric bill. Insitute Funding and re-embursement for photo-voltaic arrays. Make them make sense to the common person.

Automobiles- Why are we burning corn and not hydrogen? 

Power Delivery- OMG there are so many other options other than burning fossil fuels. I know here and Massachussetts the Cape Cod homos don't want to look at a wind farm out in the ocean, you know what someone should step in and say "too bad, you get to look at a wind farm" But this is the mindset in the country we live in. Alternative eneregy as an eye sore and an inconvienience, not a necessity. What about the midwest? Put up millions of GE windmills. MILLIONS. But we've been trying this and people don't want anything to do with it. We'd rather burn coal, because after all you can just tuck a coal plant off in the middle of nowhere.

I'm sorry but burning fossil fuels is just crazy, it's not sustainable any more and we need to change the way we look at our world. We need to change the way we behave with regards to it. We really need to take a look at our infrastructure and retool it. Not just make coal burn better. I don't think that's the solution.

I really don't understand the mindset of clean fossil fuels. How about, we've the tools to stop using fossil fuels, so lets make it happen. But I guess it's easier to take that subliminal hit from the Exxon commercial then to actually think about your situation. I don't understand why people act like they're major shareholders in Shell.


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## El Caco (Jun 7, 2008)

You didn't look at Pritchard Steam did you.


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## Bound (Jun 7, 2008)

s7eve said:


> You didn't look at Pritchard Steam did you.



I did actually. Good stuffs. 

But none of this will ever come up in politics, because we want to make existing coal plants cleaner. Alt energy should be at the forefront, not a side note in the politcal scheme.

Oh and as far as automobile's and Pritchard- I do recall those not being able to climb hills. As far as far as being utilized in an energy distribution network- Sounds great.


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## El Caco (Jun 7, 2008)

They climb hills better than an internal combustion engine. It's steam, torque down low is what they do but the original Pritchard Falcon test vehicle also out accelerated the quickest V8 on the road in Australia back then. They have had many years to refine it since then and moved away from focussing on transport applications however I think it's a crime that every bus is not powered by the Pritchard steam engine and if a bus company wakes up to it, they would not only cut cost substantially but reduce their impact on the environment and if done right could create a monopoly.

Don't forget the engine they used in the cars was only a 2 cylinder and much smaller than an internal combustion engine, as far as steam is concerned their is no limit to size, you can build a 100,000 hp engine if you wish, it's already been done. The difference with the pritchard design is it is a safe steam engine, is economic and green.


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## Azathoth43 (Jun 7, 2008)

Please every one stop with the hydrogen stuff. It will never be viable alternative. 

And nuclear power is sexy. Only two problems, what will we do with the spent fuel, and we'll be trading one importation of fuel for another.

The real question is sustainability. Is our way of living sustainable? I believe (with a far body of evidence) the answer is no. And education is key to our livability. 

And how do people get tax payer dollars from being on Section 8? Also your misinformation implies people in low income brackets (ie poor people) are some how exempt from paying taxes. Been poor my whole life and I have always had to pay taxes on every thing I buy, and my wages. I'll have to look into that loophole. But then again I must be a drug dealer that drives my new Caddy to the food stamp office (tried to get food stamps once and was told my wife didn't make enough money to qualify, oh well).


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## JBroll (Jun 7, 2008)

Azathoth43 said:


> what will we do with the spent fuel,



Nuclear reprocessing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jeff


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## DefinedInSilere (Jun 7, 2008)

Its very easy for anyone to attack ANY candidates policies. Id like to see your critiques with more facts behind them and not just a pessimistic opinionated take on what you understand or think you know. 

I did not originally support Obama, but I'd like to see this country change for the better. Whether any of us like it or not we have few major choices in this election and I will throw my vote for the man who has decent intentions as opposed to McBush and his bullshit ideas.


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## Elysian (Jun 7, 2008)

this is how i see it. i know mccain's policies, and i know what he is about, and i know that if we elect him, there is not even a slight chance for the course of our nation to change. i hope that Obama is the one to change things, i can't say i know he will, but i am allowed to hope he will. he has very well thought out positions, and seems to be passionate about them.


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## Desecrated (Jun 7, 2008)

Bound 

You have one typical flaw;
You assume that Iraq will go to hell if america leave, and we can probably say that an Iraqi government will not look like the american government if usa pull out, but then you have to remember that the Iraqi culture is a bit different. 
I see a lot of people being afraid that Iraq will have a Islamic government following the Islamic rules, and while that might be a nightmare for middle class white america, it might be exactly what a Islamic nation wants  

Your not abandoning the Iraqi if you move out, your setting them free. 
You may have friends that are soldiers and feel that they are doing a good deed, but we have the iraqi refugees coming over here, and let's just say that they think a bit different then the american troops.


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## Thixotrope (Jun 7, 2008)

Facts are subjective and propoganda is the status quo. No matter who gets elected they are only a puppet. Anybody remember our lovely system of check and balances? A president has to have some support from policy makers to get anything done. Rationale gets thrown out the window in political discussions because hardcore ingrained beliefs are on the chopping block. No one can admit that someone else might possibly have a better idea than themselves so why don't we all agree to disagree.


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## Moro (Jun 7, 2008)

I'm reading some stuff here and I'd like to clarify something:

Most people outside the US don't hate you guys. 

I can speak from myself and all my friends and family when I say that most people don't take it personal. We don't believe you guys are to blame for all of this situation. 

However, we do expect you to do something to change it, since is not in our hands. Out here we get outraged when some of you say you are not voting because you don't care or because one vote can't make a difference.

There is, however, a big, BIG hatred towards Bush. I'd like to see that fucker choke on a pretzel, that's for damn sure. But not I, nor 95% of the rest of the world will hate you, the people, for a dumb President. Specially one that got to where he is because of daddy's friends.


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## El Caco (Jun 7, 2008)

Unless you vote in another Bush


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## Azathoth43 (Jun 7, 2008)

JBroll said:


> Nuclear reprocessing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Jeff



Nah, Looks like there is still allot of nasty waste.


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