# Tips to making a upbeat, major song?



## Guamskyy (Sep 2, 2010)

Like Codex from Veil of Maya. And I know major chords and major arpeggios should be used, but I just can't find the result I'm looking for. Anything that can help would be appreciated!


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## C2Aye (Sep 2, 2010)

Um, yeah, I had a listen to that song and it certainly isn't in a major key 

I reckon to get that kind of feel, you'll need to use a lot of chord VI and chord IV (for a minor key). Playing the arpeggio of chord III (chord I's major 3rd) over chord I should produce some interesting results, as will harmonising the major arpeggio of chord VI with the minor arpeggio of chord I. Try your hand with making chord I a minor 9th as well and well, just experiment!


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## Guamskyy (Sep 2, 2010)

C2Aye said:


> Um, yeah, I had a listen to that song and it certainly isn't in a major key
> 
> I reckon to get that kind of feel, you'll need to use a lot of chord VI and chord IV (for a minor key). Playing the arpeggio of chord III (chord I's major 3rd) over chord I should produce some interesting results, as will harmonising the major arpeggio of chord VI with the minor arpeggio of chord I. Try your hand with making chord I a minor 9th as well and well, just experiment!



Well I was trying to make an upbeat song, and it does sound upbeat, I guess the mods can take out the major?

But anyway, I will definitely try that. When trying to make an upbeat song today, I was fiddling around with various 7 chords and playing around on the lydian and mixolydian scale, and it sounded pretty good to me. But again, thanks for the help!


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## C2Aye (Sep 2, 2010)

guambomb832 said:


> Well I was trying to make an upbeat song, and it does sound upbeat, I guess the mods can take out the major?
> 
> But anyway, I will definitely try that. When trying to make an upbeat song today, I was fiddling around with various 7 chords and playing around on the lydian and mixolydian scale, and it sounded pretty good to me. But again, thanks for the help!



Bouncing on chord VI (minor key) and fiddling in lydian is always a winner...for me anyway


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 2, 2010)

There's a good deal of major seventh arpeggios in there. I listened to the song much earlier in the day, so I've forgotten exactly what was going on by now, but you probably want some diatonic progression with some chromatic stuff interspersed. Use that diatonic VI&#8710; chord, or experiment with mode mixture.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 3, 2010)

Get a mixture of major, lydian, mixolydian and some lydian dominant on the same root and you'll get something interesting and happy.

Assume C as root (for easeo f writing)
Major:
C D E F G A B

Lydian
C D E F# G A B

Mixolydian
C D E F G A Bb

Lydian Dominant
C D E F# G A Bb

Just mix and match chords from all of those.
I also find add9, sus2, sus4, maj7 and dom7 chords quite pleasant and fit well with a major key.


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## Guamskyy (Sep 3, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> There's a good deal of major seventh arpeggios in there. I listened to the song much earlier in the day, so I've forgotten exactly what was going on by now, but you probably want some diatonic progression with some chromatic stuff interspersed. Use that diatonic VI&#8710; chord, or experiment with mode mixture.



I'm sorry, what does the triangle stand for? But I do get what you're saying, all except the triangle.


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## bostjan (Sep 3, 2010)

Triangle is a common jazz/rock notation for major.

Lydian dominant music can sound very natural and upbeat if done properly, while still being spicy enough not to get boring too quickly.

The four chord is a little tricky in this key, but you can substitute the minor iv to decent results:

I (dominant 7 - but try to avoid the b7)
II (7)
iii half diminished
iv
v
vi
VII augmented


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 3, 2010)

bostjan said:


> Triangle is a common jazz/rock notation for major.



I use it specifically to indicate the seventh, since the quality of the triad is already indicated by the case of the numeral. I&#8710; is a major seventh tonic chord (let's say E G# B D#), i&#8710; is a minor major seventh tonic (E G B D#).

&#8710; - seventh is major
7 - seventh is minor
°7 - seventh is diminished


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## bostjan (Sep 3, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> I use it specifically to indicate the seventh, since the quality of the triad is already indicated by the case of the numeral. I&#8710; is a major seventh tonic chord (let's say E G# B D#), i&#8710; is a minor major seventh tonic (E G B D#).
> 
> &#8710; - seventh is major
> 7 - seventh is minor
> °7 - seventh is diminished



That makes perfect sense, and although it is very similar to what I've seen, it is not the exact notation that I learned, except the diminished 7. Out of laziness, I'll usually just type out the abbreviations: maj, min, dom, dim, aug, h-dim, typically leaving out the maj unless there is a 6, 7, 9, 11, etc., and leaving out the dom unless it needs to be stressed.


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## JP Universe (Sep 3, 2010)

Forget the theory stuff (to a degree)... Learn a song that gives you that feeling and roll with it. Thinking about the modes, chord progressions is just going to limit your creativity imo. The Lydian mode doesn't give me that happy feeling, it's a mysterious happy satriani feeling . For me If I wanted to make a happy song I would listen to flexable (steve vai) and just jam


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## amfahim (Sep 6, 2010)

Just my 2 cents:
Try the Mixolydian mode, but use light triads and power chords over a steady root note. For example, if you try A mixolydian, keep the A in the bass and try adding notes from the A mixolydian mode on top. You can start with the basic 5th and combine that with another top note. I keep experimenting until I can find a triad that expresses what I want to express. Then I go from there to another suitable one. It takes some experimentation in the beginning but becomes much more easier and rewarding later. Also, the ligher, non-dense harmony means more freedom to express yourself with your melody.

Just my 2 cents.


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## amfahim (Sep 6, 2010)

JP Universe said:


> The Lydian mode doesn't give me that happy feeling, it's a mysterious happy satriani feeling .


 
So true!


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 6, 2010)

C2Aye said:


> Bouncing on chord VI (minor key) and fiddling in lydian is always a winner...for me anyway




Maybe its thats its late and I'm tired, but are you saying you like to, for example, use the lydian shape while playing over the IV chord in D minor (thus, you'd be playing in D minor)? 

It just seems to pointless to spell out in typical terms of Theory.

For example, if I'm in B major, and I'm playing a Mixolydian shape over the E major (IV chord), I'm still playing a B Major scale, so I just don't understand the need to over complicate things.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 6, 2010)

amfahim said:


> Also, the ligher, non-dense harmony means more freedom to express yourself with your melody.







JP Universe said:


> Forget the theory stuff (to a degree)... Learn a song that gives you that feeling and roll with it. Thinking about the modes, chord progressions is just going to limit your creativity imo. The Lydian mode doesn't give me that happy feeling, it's a mysterious happy satriani feeling . For me If I wanted to make a happy song I would listen to flexable (steve vai) and just jam



Ideally, a musical person doesn't make a gimmick out of their knowledge. What hopefully happens when one is studying music theory is that one explores the sonic information put before them and then puts that information somewhere where it is accessible when appropriate. Learning a harmonic or rhythmic language isn't going to limit creativity; Beethoven was one of the most intensely creative and opinionated musicians of the Classical era, and he definitely knew his shit. Furthermore, he expanded on what he already knew, did new things with form and harmony that he arrived at with a working knowledge of classical form and harmony. That's how a musician should look at theory: a tool. Not a crutch, not a barrier, but a tool of their own self-realization. Music theory is descriptive, not prescriptive.




Adam Of Angels said:


> Maybe its thats its late and I'm tired, but are you saying you like to, for example, use the lydian shape while playing over the IV chord in D minor (thus, you'd be playing in D minor)?



Check yourself: he said VI, not IV. I'll do this in seventh chords.

Minor keys: i7 iiø7 III&#8710; iv7 V7 VI&#8710; vii°7
Major keys: I&#8710; ii7 iii7 IV&#8710; V7 vi7 viiø7




> It just seems to pointless to spell out in typical terms of Theory.
> 
> For example, if I'm in B major, and I'm playing a Mixolydian shape over the E major (IV chord), I'm still playing a B Major scale, so I just don't understand the need to over complicate things.



Nope. F# mixolydian is the relative mixolydian of B major. You're thinking E lydian. Alas, you're correct: if you play a B major scale over an E chord, you're still in B major. Tonality is dictated by where the cadence falls.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 6, 2010)

Yes, I did mean to say Lydian (not sure how I managed to accidentally type MORE letter )

But once again, my point stands... if I'm playing the Lydian shape over the IV chord in B Major, I'm just playing a B Major scale and I don't understand the necessity in complicating things with a fancy lingo.. its what makes theory so silly to me. Its like using Physics to describe a baseball game.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 6, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Check yourself: he said VI, not IV. I'll do this in seventh chords.
> 
> Minor keys: i7 iiø7 III&#8710; iv7 V7 VI&#8710; vii°7
> Major keys: I&#8710; ii7 iii7 IV&#8710; V7 vi7 viiø7



Ok, well here again, the Lydian is the 6th shape in D minor, so playing Lydian over the VI chord in D Minor is still... D Minor. I simply don't see that point in the lingo.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 6, 2010)

Now I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm thinking - its popular to play blues this way: A7 with Mixolydian riffs on top. Is this to say the song is in A7? Or is it to say that the song is in D Major? Or there's no difference... but, what's confusing me is, what key is the song really in? Its waaaay past my bed time so I'm simply just confused right now, but I might actually be missing something here (I don't want to think that theory is just useless description)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 6, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> But once again, my point stands... if I'm playing the Lydian shape over the IV chord in B Major, I'm just playing a B Major scale and I don't understand the necessity in complicating things with a fancy lingo.. its what makes theory so silly to me. Its like using Physics to describe a baseball game.



You're absolutely right. A lot of musicians make assumptions about modes that are incorrect, or at least incredibly unwieldy. Really, there's a lack of understanding of cadence when it comes to modal discussions; just because you're "starting" on a certain note, doesn't mean you're in a certain "mode". In fact, it's the opposite: the goal is to end on a certain note, and have it sound resolved (in that kind of music, anyway). Guitarists, especially, are notorious for knowing what modes are but not having a strong grasp on them. Playing "ionian over I, dorian over ii, etc." is obviously redundant, but because our instrument is very shape-oriented, it's easy to see why, from a mnemonic standpoint, guitarists learn modes like "I=ionian, ii=dorian, iii=phrygian..." It's very easy to learn the notes that way. Would I call it a proper and informed musical analysis? No. But if you're just trying to make sense of it in your own head, you probably don't care whether something is "correct". And, yeah, there are far simpler ways to state things that many musicians say, but music as an art is ambiguous and learning how to deal with that ambiguity is not something that most guitarists are taught.




Adam Of Angels said:


> Now I don't mean to hijack the thread, but I'm thinking - its popular to play blues this way: A7 with Mixolydian riffs on top. Is this to say the song is in A7? Or is it to say that the song is in D Major? Or there's no difference... but, what's confusing me is, what key is the song really in? Its waaaay past my bed time so I'm simply just confused right now, but I might actually be missing something here (I don't want to think that theory is just useless description)



Music theory's not just a useless description, but it's not an umbrella either.

Blues does not use functional dominant chords. Here's a typical twelve-bar blues:

|A7///|////|////|////|
|D7///|////|A7///|////|
|E7///|D7///|A7///|E7///|

What key are we in?! I see A7, so that's D, right? Wait, no, there's D7 there. So, what, we're in G? Maybe that's a V7/IV. No, it goes back to A7. AH! E7, that's V in A! And it goes to... D7. Maybe it will resolve properly this time. No, it goes back to A7. If that goes to D, I'll be so happy! E7? Well, poo. This sure is confusing if you try to analyze it like a strictly diatonic progression. Well, it sounds like it's in the key of A, regardless of the sevenths, so let's go with that.

If you were to get rid of the sevenths on all of these chords, this would look like a bunch of primary triads (I, IV, V), which is essentially what's going on. It's not difficult to find a scale to play over this junk that has a tonic, a perfect fourth, and a perfect fifth. We're not concerned about the quality of the triad; you can kinda futz it here and there. There's a lot of harmonic flexibility in that sense. Adding a minor seventh on top of each chord just adds color to it. You'll probably never hear a bluesman talking about the circle of fifths or discussing enharmonic modulation, simply because the blues is not concerned with that kind of harmony. It's like analyzing pop tunes using interval vectors: you're thinking, but your mind is in the wrong place.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 6, 2010)

Well what you're describing (and correctly so) is a song/riff in A7 that keeps changing keys. From A7 (D) to D7 (G), back to A7 (D), then to E7 (A).. but what you're saying is that if I want to call it this way, I can, but that it's somewhat pointless? Which, if true, is my original point anyway.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 6, 2010)

We perceive the tonal centre on A, regardless of what the harmony suggests (Three different keys? Nada.). The dominant seventh quality does not mean that the chord behaves like a dominant seventh chord in the blues; we call them "non-functional dominants". It's the key of A. Not A major, minor, mixolydian, dorian, whatever, just A. Due to the style, there are many note choices available to us. We can play A major or minor pentatonic over the entire thing, letting notes clash where they may, we can play the pentatonics with tonics relative to the current chord, we can do the same operations with the mixolydian scale, or, if you do it right, with the phrygian dominant. There's also the option to play completely chromatically and just go between chord tones. What I'm saying is that not everything is "this is in this key" or "this is in that key". The blues is interesting in that it sounds very diatonic (due to the I IV V functions), but there is an extremely chromatic tone palette to work with. In some cases, this results in simultaneous notes that don't really go together, such as both a major and minor third, or perfect and diminished fifths. In the blues and jazz, there are many cases where somebody will suggest playing something that doesn't fit the chord at all, the reasoning being that it sounds like playing a bunch of chromatic passing tones. Knowing diatonic harmony and practice is just a small portion of the study of Western music theory.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 6, 2010)

Well, while I've realized that diatonic harmony is just a small part, I'm entirely self taught when it comes to theory, so much of the terminology seems overly complex to me, given the meaning in most cases. Just the same, you have been a help.. I'll be back with more questions.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 12, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> It's like analyzing pop tunes using interval vectors: you're thinking, but your mind is in the wrong place.


Sounds like an XKCD comic!!


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## theclap (Sep 13, 2010)

Modality can also bring in concepts such as mixture within a song. The most common is minor mixture within major or major mixture within minor. You here this a lot while in major and people will go to the minor IV chord(ex. C to Fm). and you will also here the deceptive minor cadence in Major a lot a la I V bVI(ex. C G Ab). It's basically using chords from the parallel scales, fancy name for scales that start on the same tonic. 

This idea can also be applied to modes and can help to bring out the major quality in your melody and harmony by adding chords from parallel major sounding modes such as lydian, mixolydian, and lydian dominant that most people are referring to within this post. 

To bring this idea into use say your in C major/ionian. Start to think of the degrees of the lydian and mixolydian in C like this...
C Ionian-Cmaj Dmin Emin Fmaj Gmaj Amin Bdim
C Mixolydian-Cmaj Dmin Edim Fmaj Gmin Amin Bbmaj 
C Lydian- Cmaj Dmaj Emin F#dim Gmaj Amin Bmin 

Now start to right in C a basic progression and add in other chords directly from the parallel major sounding modes. Most typical use of mixture is to use the dominant chords as secondary dominants especially from closely related keys such as F and G but can help to really keep the melody happy. 

Notable chords to help signify each mode would be lydian's Dominant II chord and Maj7 V chord and minor vii chord. the F#dim chord can also be helpful for implying a ii V i in, this case, E phrygian or some other type of minor mode of E. In Mixolydian you have the Major VII chord and a Dominant root chord. And also the minor v.

You can also use Major chords from minor parallel scales just watch your use of melody over said instances.

Other than that, if you start to write a progression and want to add in a minor chord, Minor 7 chords sound considering less sad to the ear. Other than that I'm out of ideas.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 13, 2010)

I almost got what you're saying here.. its making a bit more sense to me - but please illustrate what you're saying here...



theclap said:


> Notable chords to help signify each mode would be lydian's Dominant II chord and Maj7 V chord and minor vii chord. the F#dim chord can also be helpful for implying a ii V i in, this case, E phrygian or some other type of minor mode of E. In Mixolydian you have the Major VII chord and a Dominant root chord. And also the minor v.



...with the exact chords. If you were in C Lydian, the aforementioned chords would be?


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## theclap (Sep 13, 2010)

When writing a progression, substitute your current scales "x" degree chord from "x" degree of a parallel mode or scale. But for the sake of just implying a mode, there are only usually 1-2 chord that is/are the characteristic(s) of each mode and also popular progressions per mode that you will hear often in popular music.

Say you're in C major and you wanna imply to the ear a lydian sound, the distinctive chord there would be the D major chord. Anything else would be lydian, but shared with a different scale or indesicive. The other chords different from major in lydian are the b minor and f#dim, but the F#dim is just a secondary dominant that is usually applied in basic major/minor music and the b minor can also be used to. Maybe a progression for lydian could be something like...

A section
C:||: Cmaj | Amin G7 | Dm | G7 :|| Cmaj | Bmin Amin | D7 | G7 |

B section
C:||: Cmaj | Dmaj :||x ad infinitum

In the A section you have the repeat of C major basic progression of a I vi V ii V I then after the repeat it begins to imply C Lydian with the descending bass motion of C to B to A and then a modified II V I from the repeat. Then the B section brings out the major notable characteristic of lydian, the major super tonic. I believe the overall use of this progression would be to reinforce the fact that the melody's F#'s are not mistakes and we are indeed moving away in some sort of way from just good ol' C major.

There are also chords that usually will help you recognize the modality involved. the best example is hearing the flat major II going to a minor i(or Fmaj going to Emin). Anyone who's ever heard church modes usually can hear that one right away(phyrgian).


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 13, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> If you were in C Lydian, the aforementioned chords would be?



A C lydian scale is C D E F# G A B.

Now the simplest to make chords out of the scale you simply put every other note together.

Ex:
Cmaj:
C E G

*C* D *E* F# *G* A B

Dmaj:
D F# A
C *D* E *F#* G *A* B

Em:
EGB
C D *E* F# *G* A *B*

F#dim:
F#AC
C D E *F#* G *A* B *C* D E F# G A B
(all scales theoretically go both up and down indefinitely, so when you get to the seventh note, it goes back to 1-it loops)

Gmaj:
GBD
C D E F# *G* A *B* C *D* E F# G A B

Amin:
ACE
C D E F# G *A* B *C* D *E* F# G A B

Bmin:
BDF#
C D E F# G A *B* C *D* E *F#* G A B

All of these chords are triads-chords with three notes made by stacking thirds.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 13, 2010)

theclap said:


> When writing a progression, substitute your current scales "x" degree chord from "x" degree of a parallel mode or scale. But for the sake of just implying a mode, there are only usually 1-2 chord that is/are the characteristic(s) of each mode and also popular progressions per mode that you will hear often in popular music.
> 
> Say you're in C major and you wanna imply to the ear a lydian sound, the distinctive chord there would be the D major chord. Anything else would be lydian, but shared with a different scale or indesicive. The other chords different from major in lydian are the b minor and f#dim, but the F#dim is just a secondary dominant that is usually applied in basic major/minor music and the b minor can also be used to. Maybe a progression for lydian could be something like...
> 
> ...





Alright, I got that, but only because I figured it out for myself while I was waiting for a response. I don't understand it in the terms you're using - high flown language so as to maintain sophistication when talking about Theory only confuses me since I don't know much of the terminology used in Theory to begin with.


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## Adam Of Angels (Sep 13, 2010)

All_¥our_Bass;2137416 said:


> A C lydian scale is C D E F# G A B.
> 
> Now the simplest to make chords out of the scale you simply put every other note together.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I just figured this out with pen and paper. I mostly knew that stuff, I'm just tying together loose ends in my understanding, I guess.


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## theclap (Sep 13, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Alright, I got that, but only because I figured it out for myself while I was waiting for a response. I don't understand it in the terms you're using - high flown language so as to maintain sophistication when talking about Theory only confuses me since I don't know much of the terminology used in Theory to begin with.



I apologize, man. Anything you would like me to make more clear I will in the spirit of learning and rocking out.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 14, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Yeah, I just figured this out with pen and paper. I mostly knew that stuff, I'm just tying together loose ends in my understanding, I guess.


I hope it didn't seem like I was treating you like an idiot, but I wanted to make sure it got through correctly, hence it's probably too in-depth for a (relatively) simple topic, but I didn't know what you knew or didn't know so I decided to put it up anyway, so there wouldn't be any misunderstandings.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 14, 2010)

Keep in mind that you really need only a couple of chords to imply modality. The cadences are where it's at. Here's a really quick run-through of said cadences:

Major: V-I, V7-I, vii°-I, viiø7-I, vii°7-I, IV-I (plagal cadence), ii-I
Minor: V-i, V7-i, vii°-i, vii°7-i, iv-i (plagal), [V,V7, vii°, vii°7]-I (picardy third), N-V-i (or N-V7-i)

"N" is a neapolitan chord, or in simpler terms, bII. Now the modal stuff.

Aeolian: v-i, bVII-i, bVI-bVII-i
Dorian: IV-i, IV-v-i, II-i
Phrygian: bII-i
Lydian: II-I, vii-I, V&#8710;-I
Mixolydian: v-I, bVII-I

You'll also see bVI-bVII-I as a cadence in major keys sometimes. In that case, the bVI and bVII are borrowed from the aeolian minor.


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## theclap (Sep 14, 2010)

ahh yeah that's what I was missing but your first statement is what i was trying to get across. don't forget your deceptives and halves


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## Thaeon (Sep 14, 2010)

To use something really unique in heavy music, why not try using a Melodic Minor scale and Harmonize it... Then write using the major chords associated with that scale. WHWWWWH

I.E.

Ib5maj7

IIb5b7 (this one is particularly nasty sounding)

III7

iv

v

vi Minor/Major

vii Minor/Major


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 14, 2010)

theclap said:


> ahh yeah that's what I was missing but your first statement is what i was trying to get across. don't forget your deceptives and halves



Half cadences are just ending a phrase on a dominant function. This means V or bII (note that these are triads and not seventh chords; the tendency for a seventh chord to resolve is too strong for a half cadence in most cases). Deceptive cadences are really just prolongations of the progression, and you probably don't want to fool around with them when you're trying to establish anything other than major/minor, as doing so could obscure the modal aim of the progression. It works decently in pure minor, though:

Am Em F G Am

That's i v VI bVII i. Deceptive cadences aren't really cadences, though. A cadence implies a resolution to a tonic chord. In my example, you'll see that I'm just using that v VI deceptive cadence to put more chords in there, and it ultimately ends with a bVII-i cadence.

If you try deceptive cadences in other modes, it can get messy. Let's use lydian.

A E F#m G#m A (This is the same progression from the previous example; I V vi vii I.)

Our ear wants to hear B and E after that final A chord. At this point, we've introduced too many notes from E major, and the tonal centre isn't where we want it.




Thaeon said:


> To use something really unique in heavy music, why not try using a Melodic Minor scale and Harmonize it... Then write using the major chords associated with that scale. WHWWWWH
> 
> I.E.
> 
> ...



I believe you have your harmonization wrong.

i&#8710; ii7 III+&#8710; IV7 V7 viø7 viiø7

Our scale is A B C D E F# G#

Am&#8710; - A C E G#
Bm7 - B D F# A
C+&#8710; [Cmaj7(#5)]- C E G# B
D7 - D F# A C
E7 - E G# B D
F#ø7 [F#m7(b5)]- F# A C E
G#ø7 [G#m7(b5)]- G# B D F#

Forgetting that we're harmonizing what is, by nomenclature, a melodic scale, of course...


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## Thaeon (Sep 14, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Half cadences are just ending a phrase on a dominant function. This means V or bII (note that these are triads and not seventh chords; the tendency for a seventh chord to resolve is too strong for a half cadence in most cases). Deceptive cadences are really just prolongations of the progression, and you probably don't want to fool around with them when you're trying to establish anything other than major/minor, as doing so could obscure the modal aim of the progression. It works decently in pure minor, though:
> 
> Am Em F G Am
> 
> ...



I was equating C to I. We don't re-numerate the scale at my school when thinking in terms of minor. And the harmonization may not be right due to the fact that I was being hurried out the door by my wife... 

And the only reason it's used in alternating versions is for contrapuntal reasons in classical music. Listen to the improv in "So What". The 6 is always sharp.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 14, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> If you try deceptive cadences in other modes, it can get messy. Let's use lydian.
> 
> A E F#m G#m A (This is the same progression from the previous example; I V vi vii I.)
> 
> Our ear wants to hear B and E after that final A chord. At this point, we've introduced too many notes from E major, and the tonal centre isn't where we want it.


To me that sounds perfectly resolved on an Amaj chord.
I even repeated it several times just to make sure.
Yup, I *STILL* hear the Amaj chord as the tonic.

But you're right that certain types of progressions are great for major/minor, but don't quite work in other modes.


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## Thaeon (Sep 14, 2010)

That's a situation where as a general rule wouldn't sound right, but in the event of modulating keys would be a superbly executed progression.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 15, 2010)

Thaeon said:


> I was equating C to I. We don't re-numerate the scale at my school when thinking in terms of minor. And the harmonization may not be right due to the fact that I was being hurried out the door by my wife...
> 
> And the only reason it's used in alternating versions is for contrapuntal reasons in classical music. Listen to the improv in "So What". The 6 is always sharp.



Your school teaches all the numerals from C? Doesn't that defeat the purpose of the numerals in the first place? 

In "So What", Miles isn't harmonizing a melodic minor scale and deriving functional harmony from it; he's playing dorian modally, so that there is no chord progression. You can do the same with melodic minor - get a tonic or dominant drone going on and jam away. I'm just pointing out that you can't expect to get the neat functional harmony found in the major scale in every other scale, heptatonic or otherwise. Melodic minor, when harmonized, has a lot of tendency tones, including multiple leading tones. When used as melodic scale to facilitate the normal leading tone, you don't have that problem, because the raised sixth isn't accounted for in the harmony.




All_¥our_Bass;2140281 said:


> To me that sounds perfectly resolved on an Amaj chord.
> I even repeated it several times just to make sure.
> Yup, I *STILL* hear the Amaj chord as the tonic.
> 
> But you're right that certain types of progressions are great for major/minor, but don't quite work in other modes.



Did you try it with the B and E chords at the end? A turns into a IV very quickly.


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## theclap (Sep 15, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Half cadences are just ending a phrase on a dominant function. This means V or bII (note that these are triads and not seventh chords; the tendency for a seventh chord to resolve is too strong for a half cadence in most cases). Deceptive cadences are really just prolongations of the progression, and you probably don't want to fool around with them when you're trying to establish anything other than major/minor, as doing so could obscure the modal aim of the progression. It works decently in pure minor, though:
> 
> Am Em F G Am
> 
> ...



It sounds like to me you go to school for music right? you sound like you are just throwing up what a chalkboard said. How about some application and empricial relevance to the subject. Halfs Cadences are used very much so out side of the very middle of a piece in classical and popular music. Sometimes people take things in music outside of their natural use and apply them to be something the rules say they are not and end up sounding natural and great. Matter of fact I listened to this choir piece that ended in a wonderful sounding straight up IV V the other night. I'm not going to go into a whole essay on it but being in a minor key and going V to bVI would be a great way to start to establish a major tonality in a transient or full out modulation that came from a minor progression. Or even in major and borrowing the parallel minors VI


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## theclap (Sep 15, 2010)

[/QUOTE]made this by accident and can't figure out how to remove it.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 15, 2010)

theclap said:


> It sounds like to me you go to school for music right? you sound like you are just throwing up what a chalkboard said. How about some application and empricial relevance to the subject. Halfs Cadences are used very much so out side of the very middle of a piece in classical and popular music. Sometimes people take things in music outside of their natural use and apply them to be something the rules say they are not and end up sounding natural and great. Matter of fact I listened to this choir piece that ended in a wonderful sounding straight up IV V the other night. I'm not going to go into a whole essay on it but being in a minor key and going V to bVI would be a great way to start to establish a major tonality in a transient or full out modulation that came from a minor progression. Or even in major and borrowing the parallel minors VI



I can't quite figure out what you're saying here. I'll try to do this point by point.

&#8226; I do go to school for music. If you read my posts here, you'll see that I am not the type that thinks the textbook is the only way to do it. I will regularly specify whether I am speaking of the tonal idiom or otherwise, frequently providing multiple analyses. I freely acknowledge that music is ambiguous by nature, and often express that sentiment myself. I write and listen to music, too, dude. Additionally, I teach. My aim is to understand and function within the realm of music, not to paint myself into a corner. I will never say that there is a wrong way to do it, unless there is a hyper-specific condition, like the resolution of a tritone.

&#8226; Half cadences... isn't that what I said? A half cadence is a dominant function that ends a phrase. Here's a ton of examples that I've posted here before:


2:09




3:48 (I-IV-V at the end)




0:16 (Riff if V-i-ii-bII; bII serves as a dominant, although one could analyze the bII as a pre-dominant function [Neapolitan] in this case.)




4:52



As you can see, I'm involving multiple styles and placements of the half-cadence. Yeah, they're awesome.

&#8226; I never badmouthed deceptive cadences. What I did say is that you can't just mash a bunch of chords together and expect a functional progression, especially if you're looking at modal progressions, because the Western ear is culturally trained to hear major and minor. We have to take precautions when making modal chord progressions, and deceptive cadences can sometimes screw that up. Don't forget that when you write in one major scale mode, you're writing in six others, as well. The trick is to convince the ear that one note that normal isn't tonic _is_, in fact, tonic.

&#8226; And, yes, I know about common chord modulation.


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## GuitarBayArea (Sep 15, 2010)

In addition to what others have said theory-wise in this thread, try playing something in a major key _fast_. I have found that music generally sounds "happier" when it's played fast, as opposed to being played slow.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 16, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Did you try it with the B and E chords at the end? A turns into a IV very quickly.


With B and E chords at the end it resolves to E nicely but A E F#m G#m A by itself lends A as the tonic quite easily.


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## theclap (Sep 16, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> I can't quite figure out what you're saying here. I'll try to do this point by point.
> 
> &#8226; I do go to school for music. If you read my posts here, you'll see that I am not the type that thinks the textbook is the only way to do it. I will regularly specify whether I am speaking of the tonal idiom or otherwise, frequently providing multiple analyses. I freely acknowledge that music is ambiguous by nature, and often express that sentiment myself. I write and listen to music, too, dude. Additionally, I teach. My aim is to understand and function within the realm of music, not to paint myself into a corner. I will never say that there is a wrong way to do it, unless there is a hyper-specific condition, like the resolution of a tritone.
> 
> ...




true i agree with everything you're saying. I feel like we keep circling around what each other is saying.

To add on to the tempo idea, I kind of find it interesting in happy music to help make it sound not so chipper-happy-dandy if you have juxtaposing idea's within a band setting. If you can keep the focus on the major sounding part of the arrangement and have another instrumental member, let's say you're in a guitar/drum/bass setting you on guitar, either play a more minor sounding bass line or have the drums completely oppose your overall feel of said moment in time can add under laying depth to your music. I can think of a few bands that do it but I don't have the youtube vids to back it up on youtube like schecterwhore. This idea originally sparked from a local band in my area that has a real good concept of playing really aggressive music 90% of the time in a major key.


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