# Tune ibanez SRAS7 fretless/fretted hybrid like normal 7 string?



## Gmork (Jul 29, 2018)

Hi, im considering ordering the ibanez sras7 fretless/fretted hybrid bass but am wondering if theres any reason i couldnt tune it like a regular 7 string rather that its wacky factory tuning???

I want it to match up tuning wise to my 8 string guitar, so low F# to B. 

Imho this would be awesome for playing proggy technical bass as id get to use the fretless for some rhythm stuff and then be able to sweep and tap on the higher register.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 29, 2018)

I personally don’t think the fretless and piezo-only position the lowest strings will be in will be ideal. 

Why not grab a BTB7? Used Conklin Groove Tools?


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## Beheroth (Jul 29, 2018)

I tried F# on a fretless once, cool contrabass tone but no clarity whatsoever.
This bass doesn't have magnetic pickup on the fretless side only piezo.
Also i'm not sure there's enough room for intonation at F# on the fretless side

edit : Also only one trussrod on a neck this wide ...

I think it's an overall cool idea, a few years ago they did one with fretless side on the high strings, but they didn't dig in the details enough to make it anything other than just a demonstration of what they can do and not a playable instrument.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 29, 2018)

Beheroth said:


> Also i'm not sure there's enough room for intonation at F# on the fretless side



It’s fretless.


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## LordCashew (Jul 29, 2018)

Tuning the Ashula down to F# is totally possible, but I agree with Max that it's probably not an ideal situation for the lower strings. Having the fretted/fretless split could be cool in some situations but I think a more cohesive-sounding bass would be better suited for standard tuning most of the time. Unless, of course, you already have another bass to cover those duties.

I also suggest the BTB7. I think the older ones look and sound best, and you can pretty easily find one for $800-$900. A number of people have tuned them to F#. But if you want to get an Ashula instead, no one's stopping you.


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## LordCashew (Jul 29, 2018)

Also, it's possible to sweep and tap in the higher register of a fretless too. Since it sounds like you're primarily a guitarist, I'm guessing it might be beyond what you want to do. But this is a great video...


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## Gmork (Jul 29, 2018)

Well i def am only interested in fretless but i thought this hybrid was really cool. The gimmick worked on me lol. Otherwise id like the ibby srf706 fretless 6 but it seems its not in production any longer. 
Lordironspatula i love forest! Thats essentially exactly the type of stuff id be doing. Just not as well lol. 

I use to have an ibanez srf705 fretless 5 string that i had modded to fit 185g kalium strings and tuned down to low f# and it was awesome. But i just wanted more strings. (6 at least)


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## Gmork (Jul 29, 2018)

Also im poor so i finance from L&M so im limites to the few brands they carry, luckly lm an ibanez fanboy lol


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## Beheroth (Jul 29, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It’s fretless.



Even if it's fretless it doesn't hurt to intonate to have the same fingering positions on each string, like a lined fretless bass.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 29, 2018)

Beheroth said:


> Even if it's fretless it doesn't hurt to intonate to have the same fingering positions on each string, like a lined fretless bass.



It doesn’t necessarily work like that.

The fret space is a rough approximation of where the note is _supposed to be_ based on the mathematics used to calculate fret location. But the math isn’t perfect on a traditional, Western instrument. So the exact spot where the note is, is at a slightly different spot, even if intonated at the 12th fret.

This is one of the reasons that orchestral instruments are fretless, so the musician can properly finger the instrument into tune.


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## ixlramp (Jul 29, 2018)

Fretless still requires correct intonation to be consistent with side dots, and especially here where it is beside frets.
Looking at the saddle positions, the lowest 3 are positioned roughly equal to the fretted EAD, so you might be able to intonate a B but a low F# requires the saddle much further back and there will likely be intonation problems.
Also, the fretless board is actually higher than the fret top surface, in order to make the top surface of the strings level with the fretted section. It will step up a lot if you use a straight fourths tuning:


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## LordCashew (Jul 29, 2018)

Gmork said:


> Well i def am only interested in fretless but i thought this hybrid was really cool. The gimmick worked on me lol. Otherwise id like the ibby srf706 fretless 6 but it seems its not in production any longer.



So am I correct in assuming you want a fretless bass with 6+ strings? And it must be financed through L&M?

Unless you can find a used bass that meets your criteria, you might have to get a fretted 6-7 string and convert it. Can L&M get you the new BTB747? I know I said I prefer the old BTB7 but the BTB747 can't be bad and it comes with stainless steel fre... oh wait... 

Seriously, those conversions can turn out well but it might be more hassle than it's worth.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 29, 2018)

ixlramp said:


> Fretless still requires correct intonation to be consistent with side dots, and especially here where it is beside frets.



Requires?







Think about how intonation works. Even if you were to intonate at the 12th, how accurate would the rest of the board be?


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## odibrom (Jul 29, 2018)

Also, when playing fretless, one intonates as one plays. True story. 

I aprove what @LordIronSpatula said about converting a regular fretted bass to fretless.


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## Gmork (Jul 29, 2018)

LordIronSpatula said:


> So am I correct in assuming you want a fretless bass with 6+ strings? And it must be financed through L&M?
> 
> Unless you can find a used bass that meets your criteria, you might have to get a fretted 6-7 string and convert it. Can L&M get you the new BTB747? I know I said I prefer the old BTB7 but the BTB747 can't be bad and it comes with stainless steel fre... oh wait...
> 
> Seriously, those conversions can turn out well but it might be more hassle than it's worth.


Hmm didnt didnt think about this route! Definitely something any luthiere worth his or her ...uhh... Salt? could do right? 
Sure would open my options up


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## LordCashew (Jul 29, 2018)

Gmork said:


> Hmm didnt didnt think about this route! Definitely something any luthiere worth his or her ...uhh... Salt? could do right?
> Sure would open my options up



Probably anyone with decent experience refretting instruments could do it. You would want someone who knows how to pull frets with minimal damage to the surrounding wood and/or knows how to fill such damage cleanly when it occurs.

Then you'd need to decide what material to fill the fret slots with. A veneer that matches or contrasts with the fingerboard wood color? There's also the possibility of coating the fingerboard with a hard finish, but that definitely adds to the cost.


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## Hollowway (Jul 29, 2018)

I have one of those. Primarily because I make poor life decisions, but it is pretty cool. And, because there’s no magnetic pickup for those fretless strings, of think you’d want to steer clear of what you’re attempting,


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## Gmork (Jul 29, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> I have one of those. Primarily because I make poor life decisions, but it is pretty cool. And, because there’s no magnetic pickup for those fretless strings, of think you’d want to steer clear of what you’re attempting,


Thrres no way owning the sras7 can be considered a poor life choice, its a thing of beauty! I am going to get something else but one day i WILL own one. I wont hate it for what its not, but love it for what it is.


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## ElRay (Jul 29, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Requires?
> 
> Think about how intonation works. Even if you were to intonate at the 12th, how accurate would the rest of the board be?


EVERYTHING I have read about adjusting intonation on an fretless has said that intonation adjustments are just to make fingering easier by shifting the correct point up or down a little on the string to avoid finger collisions/awkward positioning. 

If you need to shift the intonation point because it’s too far from a side dot, you’ve got a bigger problem with the instrument


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## bostjan (Jul 29, 2018)

Low F# is not easy to get to sound good. Its not even easy to get it to not sound terrible through most rigs. Id strongly recommend against this bass for low f#.
Is it for recording? If so, maybe the cheapest and best sounding solution is to tune up to f#, then pitch shift down an octave in post. It's far from ideal, i know. Fretless bass can sound good tuned low, but you have to have the right pickups. Piezo pickups are notoriously bad at tranducing low frequency vibrations, so it's lose/lose.


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## ixlramp (Aug 1, 2018)

Yes fretless requires correct saddle intonation adjustment (this is what Beheroth and i mean by 'intonation') if there are side dots or fret lines and you want these to be somewhat consistent along the length of the fretboard with finger positions.
I realise that the fine pitch adjustments are made by ear but the rough initial orientation is often done by looking at side dots or fretlines, for those who use those.

You suggest that running out of intonation adjustment room is not a problem. If the player is going to ignore side dots and there are no fret lines then it isn't a problem. But on this instrument the adjacent frets are likely to be visually used as 'fretlines'.


MaxOfMetal said:


> Even if you were to intonate at the 12th, how accurate would the rest of the board be?


Intonating at the 12th only is poor practice and even worse for a fretless. I just intonated my fretless bass by checking tuning at every position, in order that the side dots are somewhat consistent with finger positions along the whole length.
But the 'finger position' used turns out to be the point at the edge of the finger closest the bridge, not the centre of the finger, because the contact point with the board tends to be closer to the bridge than finger centre. It is possible for the whole board to be somewhat accurate in relation to side dots or fretlines if this is taken into account.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 1, 2018)

ixlramp said:


> Yes fretless requires correct saddle intonation adjustment (this is what Beheroth and i mean by 'intonation') if there are side dots or fret lines and you want these to be somewhat consistent along the length of the fretboard with finger positions.



That's a pretty big asterisk on being "required". 



> You suggest that running out of intonation adjustment room is not a problem. If the player is going to ignore side dots and there are no fret lines then it isn't a problem. But on this instrument the adjacent frets are likely to be visually used as 'fretlines'.



Again, there is no functional issue. 

Think about how the average player plays bass, especially big ones like this. Are they hovering over the neck at every position change? Because if they're not the frets on the higher strings aren't going to line up visually. 

See F Bass' system for marking fretboards. 



> Intonating at the 12th only is poor practice and even worse for a fretless. I just intonated my fretless bass by checking tuning at every position, in order that the side dots are somewhat consistent with finger positions along the whole length.
> But the 'finger position' used turns out to be the point at the edge of the finger closest the bridge, not the centre of the finger, because the contact point with the board tends to be closer to the bridge than finger centre. It is possible for the whole boa to be somewhat accurate in relation to side dots or fretlines if this is taken into account.



Play with your ears, not your eyes. 

I can understand if you need to adjust the intonation on an unfamiliar instrument, especially with fretlines, but that's not the case here..

For the record, most fretless basses I've owned haven't had adjustable bridges. They've used systems similar to what you'd find on an acoustic guitar.


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## Beheroth (Aug 1, 2018)

yes but in this case : a hybrid half fretted/half fretless you'd want the fingering positions to be somewhat consistent across the board no ?


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 1, 2018)

Beheroth said:


> yes but in this case : a hybrid half fretted/half fretless you'd want the fingering positions to be somewhat consistent across the board no ?



I've played the reverse version of this one, with the higher strings fretless, and the transition is jarring, not sure what slight fingering changes are really going to do to smooth that over. 

Also, it's not like we're talking more than a few millimeters here, on the extreme side. How far do you really think you can move a saddle on your average bass, and more specifically ones that use Ibanez Monorail type bridges? 

I'd bet that even with the few millimeters of travel that this bass would lineup fine with a proper setup. Fine being generally around where you'd expect the note to be.


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## bostjan (Aug 3, 2018)

I played unlined fretless six string bass in a band that toured pretty heavily for over two years (the band still tours heavily, I'm just no longer touring with them), and I never adjusted my intonation after the first time, which was to make sure that the natural harmonic nodes of the strings were all in the same position relative to one another. It's easier than adjusting intonation on a fretted instrument, and you can get away with more "slop" than you can on a fretted instrument, but if the positions are off more than a little, it gets really annoying. Obviously, you can compensate, but I guarantee that any serious fretless player will get through the gig and then fix the issue right after.

It's not like traditional violin-family instruments have intonation adjustments, but keep in mind that no one is trying to tune them down to extremely different registers.

So, I don't see how tuning the bass down nearly an octave is going to work out long term. I'm sure it'll be like "see, this works," at first, but once the player is proficient enough with fretless fingering techniques to notice the problem, the fact that it's not possible to correct it with adjustment is going to b e a fly in the ointment from that point onward.

Couple that with the bizarre ergonomic aspects of this instrument, the electronics that don't lend themselves to this sort of use, and all other factors, and this is just not a good recommendation for a bass for low F# tuning.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 3, 2018)

To the OP:

I have a 1st generation Ashula model (the 6-string version) that I have tuned like a standard 6-string: BEADGC, as opposed to the tuning that it comes in: EADGDG (basic 4-string with the two highest strings repeated over the fretless side of the fretboard). All I had to do was adjust the saddles and get a new nut cut.

If you're going to try tuning one of the new 7-string Ashulas as a standard 7-string bass (F#BEADGC), then you're going to be in for a very rough time. A new nut, new saddles, new pickups, and pretty much realigning the whole instrument would be required since the thickest string is in the dead center of the instrument. And I can guarantee that a low F# (as your lowest, thickest string) will not sound good on a mere 34" scale length on a fretless board. Now, if you want to instead add a higher string (BEADGCE? something like that) then you could get totally passable results, but it would still require a new nut, new saddles, new pickups, and pretty much realigning the whole instrument. It's just not worth the time and money. And you can kiss your resale value goodbye for the most part.

The 1st generation Ashula that I've got makes total sense in layout ever since I set it up like a normal 6-string bass with the highest two strings being fretless for some nice fretless licks, slides, and solos. However, having the thickest strings being on the fretless side (following your train of thought) makes zero sense and will make your low end become so rounded to the point of being hopelessly muddy. Also consider that the fretless end of the SRAS7 only has a piezo with no actual pickups. That absolutely would not give your low end any real sonic power, punch, or clarity. It won't sound good at all. Plain and simple.


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## A-Branger (Aug 3, 2018)

as a primary a bass player for all my life and guitar wannabe currently... Get yourself a 5 string bass and tunned to your low F# to go with you guitar.

You dont need the extra 2 high strings. I know you play guitar, and I know you are used to have them there, and I know you know all your scales and whatnot, and I know you would think you would need them and use them...... but.... you dont need them and you wont be using them... maybe in that one section on that one song that one time, that it could have been played in lower strings higher up on the fretboard, or arranged differently.

think about it properlty. You are goin to deal with a massive bass, with a wide as a highway fretboard, cramping hand constantly to reach the lowest strings all the time (as those are the most used), dealing with only 1 factory option (or $$$$$$ custom), dealing with only custom string sets, and a heavier bass.... only for that high range that you wont really use, or could be easily avoided

get yourself a 5 string, and if you reaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaly needed, maybe a 6 string


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## Gmork (Aug 3, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> as a primary a bass player for all my life and guitar wannabe currently... Get yourself a 5 string bass and tunned to your low F# to go with you guitar.
> 
> You dont need the extra 2 high strings. I know you play guitar, and I know you are used to have them there, and I know you know all your scales and whatnot, and I know you would think you would need them and use them...... but.... you dont need them and you wont be using them... maybe in that one section on that one song that one time, that it could have been played in lower strings higher up on the fretboard, or arranged differently.
> 
> ...


I had a fretless 5 and having to run all over the neck to do 5 string sweeps is a total pain. And a large neck doesnt bother me at all. Played nothing but 8 string guitar for the past 5 years.


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## A-Branger (Aug 4, 2018)

Gmork said:


> I had a fretless 5 and having to run all over the neck to do 5 string sweeps is a total pain. And a large neck doesnt bother me at all. Played nothing but 8 string guitar for the past 5 years.


as long as you know what you getting yourself into, then all good go for it!

Ive seen way too many guitar players that think they need a 6 string bass "because" and 99.9% of the time they only really needed a 4 string or maybe a 5, so I was trying for you to avoid that.

but yeh like others say, best luck is to find the BTB 7 string


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 4, 2018)

Gmork said:


> I had a fretless 5 and having to run all over the neck to do 5 string sweeps is a total pain. And a large neck doesnt bother me at all. Played nothing but 8 string guitar for the past 5 years.


An 8-string string neck is nowhere near as wide as a 6-string bass neck. Just saying. So a 7-string bass is...way bigger.



A-Branger said:


> but yeh like others say, best luck is to find the BTB 7 string


I actually played a BTB 7 yesterday in my downtime while wandering around the Sam Ash that was in the city. Straight-up, the bass was a piece of shit. 
- The construction quality was spotty. 
- The neck and fretboard were MASSIVE and caused hand fatigue to set in really quickly for my fretting hand because I was having to constantly make a huge reach for the lowest strings which were/are used the most often. Exactly what you said, @A-Branger. (I used to own a 9-string guitar, but the neck on the BTB 7 bass put it to shame.) 
- The string spacing was atrociously horrid. I know that Ibanez basses are more so "designed for guitarists who play bass" and thus have super narrow string spacing on most bass models, but you couldn't actually play the BTB 7 like a bass. (Slap was absolutely impossible. Not happening.) 
- You had to approach playing the thing like a guitar. Playing with a pick would be the only route unless you really curl the fingers of your "picking hand" in quite a bit, which caused hand fatigue to set in really quickly for my "picking hand" (since the fingers are curled in instead of more relaxed and just kind of hanging on (or above) the strings. 
- I tried playing some Veil of Maya riffs/licks and some quick, little, fast stuff that I thought was along the lines of Obscura bass lines (since Dan of Veil of Maya and Linus of Obscura both play a BTB 7). They must have spent some serious time with the instrument or know some bass-playing tricks because I was struggling so terribly.


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## LordCashew (Aug 4, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I actually played a BTB 7 yesterday in my downtime while wandering around the Sam Ash that was in the city. Straight-up, the bass was a piece of shit.
> - The construction quality was spotty.
> - The neck and fretboard were MASSIVE and caused hand fatigue to set in really quickly for my fretting hand because I was having to constantly make a huge reach for the lowest strings which were/are used the most often. Exactly what you said, @A-Branger. (I used to own a 9-string guitar, but the neck on the BTB 7 bass put it to shame.)
> - The string spacing was atrociously horrid. I know that Ibanez basses are more so "designed for guitarists who play bass" and thus have super narrow string spacing on most bass models, but you couldn't actually play the BTB 7 like a bass. (Slap was absolutely impossible. Not happening.)
> ...



A "piece of shit" huh? So blunt. I love it. 

Was it one of the newest versions with the zero fret and painted body wings on the back? I haven't personally played one of those. What exactly was wrong with the construction?

You certainly do need to adjust your right hand technique for the narrower spacing, but all the normal techniques are still doable once you get used to it. I guess in some ways it is like adjusting them partway toward guitar application. As someone who moved to narrow-spaced basses pretty early on I now have the opposite problem - the strings being farther apart actually makes it harder for me to play technical stuff on 19mm spacing. I actually wish I could find a six or seven with even _narrower _spacing to help mitigate the difficulties that come with huge necks.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 4, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> An 8-string string neck is nowhere near as wide as a 6-string bass neck. Just saying. So a 7-string bass is...way bigger.



Are you sure about that? Most production 8-strings have a nut width between 54mm and 58mm, where most production 6-string basses fall around 54mm to 56mm. The BTB7 is 63mm.

The necks do get much wider towards the bridge, mostly to facilitate finger style playing. But the difference is still only a few millimeters comparing an 8 string guitar to 6 string bass. 



> - The construction quality was spotty.



It's an Indo Ibanez, that's par the course. 



> - The neck and fretboard were MASSIVE and caused hand fatigue to set in really quickly for my fretting hand because I was having to constantly make a huge reach for the lowest strings which were/are used the most often. Exactly what you said, @A-Branger. (I used to own a 9-string guitar, but the neck on the BTB 7 bass put it to shame.)



It's 13mm wider at both nut and 24th fret than a 6 string. That's roughly half an inch. 

To put it into perspective, that's a smaller difference than some 4 to 5 string basses. 



> - The string spacing was atrociously horrid. I know that Ibanez basses are more so "designed for guitarists who play bass" and thus have super narrow string spacing on most bass models, but you couldn't actually play the BTB 7 like a bass. (Slap was absolutely impossible. Not happening.)
> - You had to approach playing the thing like a guitar. Playing with a pick would be the only route unless you really curl the fingers of your "picking hand" in quite a bit, which caused hand fatigue to set in really quickly for my "picking hand" (since the fingers are curled in instead of more relaxed and just kind of hanging on (or above) the strings.
> - I tried playing some Veil of Maya riffs/licks and some quick, little, fast stuff that I thought was along the lines of Obscura bass lines (since Dan of Veil of Maya and Linus of Obscura both play a BTB 7). They must have spent some serious time with the instrument or know some bass-playing tricks because I was struggling so terribly.



The spacing is 15.5mm, so between 1.5mm and 3.5mm narrower than some of the smallest and largest common spacings. It's sort of a necessary tradeoff to stop the bass from being even bigger. 

Folks play finger style, bass technique stuff on guitars with narrower spacing and smaller strings. 

Obviously the bass didn't gel with you and that's totally cool. I'd never buy the thing either. But I wouldn't say it's "impossible" to play on.


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## WintermintP (Aug 5, 2018)

Gosh, I didn't know Ibanez basses were actually bad basses for real bass players... The one thing I don't like about my Ibanez bass is actually how it sounds more so than "oh the string spacing sucks" and so on (but that's about to change thanks to the Tone Capsule). I never had a problem with its playability but maybe that's actually because I'm a guitarist primarily? But then wouldn't other basses be even more difficult to play with a pick? So... wouldn't it be more along the lines of... different strokes for different folks? 

WintermintP


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## bostjan (Aug 6, 2018)

Different strokes for different folks, really.

I think that 7 string basses suffer from the problem that the average human hand is not big enough to reach the top string without moving your thumb out from behind the neck. Same with 10+ string guitars. It doesn't make them unplayable, but it does mean that more adjustments need to be made to technique. The other problem is acceptance. A 34" bass can sound great as a standard 4-string bass. Tuning that length of string down to D or C seems to work just fine too, to my ears. But I honestly don't like the sound of a low B on anything shorter than 35" - it just gets too boxy or muddy or floppy, depending on string gauge. So, taking a guitar to 28.625" (add two frets) and tuning it to low F#, you get a decent tone (personally, I prefer longer scale length for F#, but whatever, it's usable for sure) - analogy on a bass, that bass ought to be extended in scale as well, but... people are, for whatever reason, squeamish about extending the scale length of a bass guitar. 37" is cool, but it's only one fret worth of extension, meaning that 37" bass from 35" bass is equivalent to 27" guitar from 25.5" guitar. I'm thinking 39.25" is really a better place to look, as ridiculous as it sounds, I think it ought to be doable and playable, and I think that the F# would sound a heck of a lot better at that length than it would at 35".

But since there are only 6-7 basses around doing anything longer than 35" outside of full custom, what do you do about achieving a low F#!? Well, my answer, predictably, is to look into those 3-4 long scale basses - Dingwall, Kalium, ESP, Ibanez FF, even Brice, maybe even Carvin. Dingwall and Kalium are a bit pricier, but they are fantastic basses. The Brice is definitely not on par with those, but, IMO, still a world better than trying to fiddle with an Ibanez with a piezo pickup, which is going to be like trying to squeeze salad dressing out of a dead horse (I mean, you can squeeze something out of it and call it "salad dressing," but it's not going to convince anybody).

If I was going to play stuff in E and drop D on bass, I'd love a Spector or Palladium or Warwick to mess around with some cool riffs, but if I'm set on doing the low F# thing, I'm going to go with the Dingwall in a heartbeat. The longer scale length, the pickups voiced for handling low-ass frequencies, the electronics specifically designed to tighten up the ruthlessly unwieldy borderline-infra-sonic frequencies, the ergonomics to bring all of that together in a totally playable instrument, etc., Sheldon knows exactly what he's doing. After playing a Dingwall tuned that low, you'll be raising the bar for what those low notes ought to sound like. In comparison, my Dean Edge 6F, even with Bartolini pickup upgrades, sounds like a wet fart when I play an open F#. It's not even the same instrument.

And yeah, there are tons of guys out there reporting that they've done the low F# thing on a Hofner Beetle Bass or a Fender Bronco Bass, or whatever, but none of those guys, from what I've come across, seem to be willing to post sound clips.


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## LordCashew (Aug 6, 2018)

bostjan said:


> But since there are only 6-7 basses around doing anything longer than 35" outside of full custom, what do you do about achieving a low F#!? Well, my answer, predictably, is to look into those 3-4 long scale basses - Dingwall, Kalium, ESP, Ibanez FF, even Brice, maybe even Carvin. Dingwall and Kalium are a bit pricier, but they are fantastic basses. The Brice is definitely not on par with those, but, IMO, still a world better than trying to fiddle with an Ibanez with a piezo pickup, which is going to be like trying to squeeze salad dressing out of a dead horse (I mean, you can squeeze something out of it and call it "salad dressing," but it's not going to convince anybody).



Really good points. I would add that the extra half-inch the Ibanez and Kiesel multis have is actually pretty insignificant - less than half the difference between 34" and 35" as far as its effect on tension. So although it is technically an improvement over 35", there are 35" basses that might be better suited to F# tuning over all due to better construction or electronics. As you pointed out, a Dingwall has a whole lot more than just the scale going for it when it comes to producing great low notes. I've played the Ibanez and while it isn't a bad bass, it's kind of "meh" sounding and wouldn't be my first choice in its price range for low tuning.

Here's a video of an SR compared to the 37" Brice tuned even _lower _than F#... The electronics on the Brice are clearly not great but you can still hear a huge improvement in low note definition. Headphones recommended.


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## Gmork (Aug 7, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Different strokes for different folks, really.
> 
> I think that 7 string basses suffer from the problem that the average human hand is not big enough to reach the top string without moving your thumb out from behind the neck. Same with 10+ string guitars. It doesn't make them unplayable, but it does mean that more adjustments need to be made to technique. The other problem is acceptance. A 34" bass can sound great as a standard 4-string bass. Tuning that length of string down to D or C seems to work just fine too, to my ears. But I honestly don't like the sound of a low B on anything shorter than 35" - it just gets too boxy or muddy or floppy, depending on string gauge. So, taking a guitar to 28.625" (add two frets) and tuning it to low F#, you get a decent tone (personally, I prefer longer scale length for F#, but whatever, it's usable for sure) - analogy on a bass, that bass ought to be extended in scale as well, but... people are, for whatever reason, squeamish about extending the scale length of a bass guitar. 37" is cool, but it's only one fret worth of extension, meaning that 37" bass from 35" bass is equivalent to 27" guitar from 25.5" guitar. I'm thinking 39.25" is really a better place to look, as ridiculous as it sounds, I think it ought to be doable and playable, and I think that the F# would sound a heck of a lot better at that length than it would at 35".
> 
> ...


Which dingwall are you refering to?


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## bostjan (Aug 7, 2018)

LordIronSpatula said:


> Really good points. I would add that the extra half-inch the Ibanez and Kiesel multis have is actually pretty insignificant - less than half the difference between 34" and 35" as far as its effect on tension. So although it is technically an improvement over 35", there are 35" basses that might be better suited to F# tuning over all due to better construction or electronics. As you pointed out, a Dingwall has a whole lot more than just the scale going for it when it comes to producing great low notes. I've played the Ibanez and while it isn't a bad bass, it's kind of "meh" sounding and wouldn't be my first choice in its price range for low tuning.
> 
> Here's a video of an SR compared to the 37" Brice tuned even _lower _than F#... The electronics on the Brice are clearly not great but you can still hear a huge improvement in low note definition. Headphones recommended.




Whoah! Jeebuz, I don't know what to make of that...  I love the pro-experiment attitude, but God, that tone sounded terrible. Maybe C#0 is just not going to translate at all over headphones or desktop speakers, or maybe it's just too low for both of those instruments to handle it, or all of the above.

Actually, the not-quite-as-low F#, to me, sounded okay on the Brice. I've done low F# on my own Brice 34-37", and I thought it sounded better than that, though. Not knocking this guy, but that particular gear and those particular settings sounded painfully bad to my ears.

In all fairness, though, I've never tried anything lower than E0 in any sort of musical context, and he's going three half steps lower. But, I think, my attitude is likely completely different from his. I'm looking to tune lower until things start to sound like shit, then problem-solve until I get stumped and have to tune back up, whereas this guy seems like he's more of the attitude of "I'm going to tune to this low C#0, and then figure out how to make it sound as not-awful as possible by tweaking string gauge." I think that the approach is commendable, but, as of yet, I don't think he's struck a result that is convincing.

Back to tuning to F#, the video does seem to make it clear, IMO, that the Brice is a better option than the Ibanez, solely in terms of the resultant audio fidelity. I do believe that the 34-37" scale is a bit more playable than the straight 37", but that it's not a huge difference in ergonomics. Having played a few different multiscale basses, and owning a Brice, I will say that the layout of the Brice is probably the worst I've played, in terms of ergonomics. Most extended scale basses try to move the centre of mass more toward the bridge, so you don't have to stretch your arm as much to reach first position, and maybe the Brice does this also, but just not nearly as much. On the other hand, my Dingwall NG-2 sets the CoM of the bass quite near the 12th fret, and even though the heel is further up the neck, the neck joint and cutaway make the bass really easy to play all the way up and down the fretboard - it's more comfy to me than my wife's 34" Ibanez, which is a really comfy bass on its own.



Gmork said:


> Which dingwall are you refering to?



I've only ever played the Afterburner, the Combustion, and the NG-2. I've never seen any of the other models just kicking around anywhere. Actually, those three basses are all after the same design. But I own the NG-2, and, for me, it's the perfect bass for tuning down, barring custom pieces. It's also a top notch bass just for standard tuning.


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## LordCashew (Aug 7, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Whoah! Jeebuz, I don't know what to make of that...  I love the pro-experiment attitude, but God, that tone sounded terrible. Maybe C#0 is just not going to translate at all over headphones or desktop speakers, or maybe it's just too low for both of those instruments to handle it, or all of the above.



I totally agree!  I doubt he shares my tonal goals, but then again if he did those ultra-low notes would probably sound even worse. As far as I know, this is the only apples-to apples comparison of its kind, and I think it does a good job of showing the difference 3" makes for clarity and definition. I'm still not at all interested in C#0 tuning, LOL, but I bet the Brice could potentially sound decent at F#.


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## bostjan (Aug 7, 2018)

I had a rough comparison of the Dingwall and Brice Defiant in drop G about a year and a half ago (no production quality, though). I had meant to spend some more time doing a full-on comparison in drop G between several other basses with 34" and 35" scale lengths, but just never had time to do it before heavily mod'ing the Defiant. That young man, though, is certainly a league (or more) ahead of me in video production quality, and doing the low low low C# is also something I had not seen in a video.

EDIT: (for anyone interested)


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## WintermintP (Aug 9, 2018)

(sigh)

The lesson I learned today is...

*NEVER* buy Ibanez or D'Addario. Period. The preamp sucks, the tone sucks, strings die within less than a month, the pickups are abysmal, and you have to pay $800 for a cheap-ass bass that can't even hold it together. String spacing is not even relevant at this point. The whole brand as a bass brand just plain *sucks*. Ibanez guitars are not that bad, maybe, but basses... ugh. Likewise with D'Addario. Their guitar strings might not be all that bad, but their bass strings have so short of a lifespan that they really get on my nerves.

WintermintP


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## stevexc (Aug 9, 2018)

WintermintP said:


> (sigh)
> 
> The lesson I learned today is...
> 
> ...



Funny, I played Ibanez basses for years (read: over a decade) and have used D'addario for even longer and can say with 100% certainty that none of those points are true. The most I'll give you is on the cheap end of the range the electronics aren't the BEST but that's true for the majority of brands.


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## WintermintP (Aug 9, 2018)

stevexc said:


> Funny, I played Ibanez basses for years (read: over a decade) and have used D'addario for even longer and can say with 100% certainty that none of those points are true. The most I'll give you is on the cheap end of the range the electronics aren't the BEST but that's true for the majority of brands.


The bass in question was an $800 bass and the bass strings in question were really heavy gauges. You're talking gauges like 145.

I mean, seriously, how is an $800 bass supposed to be a cheap-end bass? There's a SUB Ray5 that costs less than that.

WintermintP


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## Emperor Guillotine (Aug 9, 2018)

WintermintP said:


> I mean, seriously, how is an $800 bass supposed to be a cheap-end bass? There's a SUB Ray5 that costs less than that.


Honestly, $800 is still cheap-end in the books of many, many players.

The thing about Ibanez basses is that they are designed for guitarists who also happen to play bass. Thus, the super narrow string spacing along with the flatter neck profiles and flatter fretboard radiuses that are all more akin to an Ibanez guitar.


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## WintermintP (Aug 9, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Honestly, $800 is still cheap-end in the books of many, many players.
> 
> The thing about Ibanez basses is that they are designed for guitarists who also happen to play bass. Thus, the super narrow string spacing along with the flatter neck profiles and flatter fretboard radiuses that are all more akin to an Ibanez guitar.



Honestly, dude, my complaint with Ibanez basses is not the string spacing or the neck profiles. It's actually the bad tone it generates (although, with the existing strings now boiled, that has a 25% chance it might change).

Okay, now I get what you're trying to say. It still stands, though, the main problem I'm getting is the bad tone from the pickups and what have you. Again, that might change with the boiled strings. I'll keep you posted.

WintermintP


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## Beheroth (Aug 10, 2018)

WintermintP said:


> The bass in question was an $800 bass and the bass strings in question were really heavy gauges. You're talking gauges like 145.



Wait,did you seriously pay 800$ for your sr405 ?!? it's only worth half that brand new.


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## A-Branger (Aug 10, 2018)

what model you got?

I ahve played only ibanez all my life.... sr300dx Excelent bass for the price, compared to all my mates and other badns starting basses, I couldnt find anything better

then I got the EDA905, great bass, neck angle was wrong tho, so I ahd to play with high action most of my life till I learned about a thing called neck shimming.

Curently I have the BTB33, amazing bass. Happy with both pickups and EQ functions. Althouhg I much rather the Nordstrands of the premium line, I cant complain


For string brand... yeeeh Im with you, I think last tiime I bought that brand my strings lasted nothing. Like one of the first or few times I actually notice when the string died.... Like "I dont remember these sounding like day couple of days ago.

I stick with Elixir right now for both bass and guitar


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## LordCashew (Aug 10, 2018)

I use D'addario XL nickels 90% of the time. They last just as long as anything else I've used, but I guess everyone's skin chemistry is different.

I personally hated Elixirs the one time I tried them on bass, but that was probably 15 years ago and they may be different now. Back then the coating would fray off the string and hang from it like hair.

15 years ago... man I'm old.


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## bostjan (Aug 14, 2018)

LordIronSpatula said:


> I use D'addario XL nickels 90% of the time. They last just as long as anything else I've used, but I guess everyone's skin chemistry is different.
> 
> I personally hated Elixirs the one time I tried them on bass, but that was probably 15 years ago and they may be different now. Back then the coating would fray off the string and hang from it like hair.
> 
> 15 years ago... man I'm old.



Shit, I was one of the testers for Goretex when they first made the beta strings, probably 24 or 25 years ago. Having ten years on you means that if you're old, then I'm older than dirt.


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## Aidil (Sep 17, 2018)

Gmork said:


> Hi, im considering ordering the ibanez sras7 fretless/fretted hybrid bass but am wondering if theres any reason i couldnt tune it like a regular 7 string rather that its wacky factory tuning???
> 
> I want it to match up tuning wise to my 8 string guitar, so low F# to B.
> 
> ...


This might be kinda late...

I own the SRAS7 and the BTB7. Between both, BTB7 might be the closest one for the purpose you're after, mainly because of the longer 35" scale (instead of 34" on the SRAF7) and reason of intonating the F#0 string discussed earlier on this thread, since the fretless portion of the SRAS7 has the individual bridges installed slightly toward the neck, as they were optimized to be used with ADG strings. Not to mention that the raised layer of the fretless board part might not be suitable for such thick string(s).

I had a 6 string fretless bass strung with .175 low F#0 string few years back. It didn't workout for me as I barely could get clear notes out of the .175 Rotosound string that I used, despite using my Ampeg 115 cab (and a PF500 head) or thru a close ear headphones. It was a 34" scale bass, so this might also have contributed. A 35" scale or even longer would be better for the job. But since you had a .185 string for this kind of purpose before, so I think you knew what you want.

You've mentioned the Portamento 6 string SRF706. It's not that they're not in production any longer. According to Hoshino Gakki website, the current batch of SRF706 are still in production until Oct 2018. You just have faced the way the marketing goes with Ibanez. The SRF706 are officially marketed only to US domestic market (although in another forum someone in Europe mentioned that he could get one locally). And this also applies to me, who live in the same island as where they are being manufactured. I've contacted Ibanez local rep and they replied that Ibanez principal hasn't put SRF706 on the list of items which they could order.

Another option... Ibanez actually offers fretless version of the BTB7 (called BTB7F), but (again) it's exclusive to Japan domestic market. Maybe there's a way for you to get one?


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