# I just can't get past basic theory...



## trippled (Jun 23, 2012)

Hi,

So, it's been alot of time I've been trying to discipline myself to learn some deeper theory than major-minor scale-triads-etc.. I went to a jazz teacher 
for a few lessons but stopped because of money issues.

I bought a book instead and actually it's a good one I believe, the problem is
that I always feel that the information I'm reading on isn't relevant considering the way I know(or don't know) the fretboard today.

I mean, how would it help me to know that a lydian chord has a sharp 4th if I can hardly visualize the neck after the 5th fret? I never thought about the notes I play and their number in the scale when I improvised, it's hard for me to imagine reaching a level doing so.

Now don't get me wrong, I know that the 7th fret is B on the 6th string,
the 7th note on the 5th string is E and a couple more I could recall, but I do feel that for making all this theory relevant, I have to completely visualize the neck and see notes on each fret - Am I?

To anyone who's playing jazz or fusion here on guitar, how did you solve this issue? I tried working on this and singing the notes of the scales I play on specific positions but I'm just not sure how productive this is and what should I focus on now, knowing the fretboard? reading more about jazz theory?

Would appreciate your help.

Daniel.


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## wizbit81 (Jun 23, 2012)

I'll give you the key to the universe my friend.

Write out the fretboard for a major key, G major is the best as it fits wonderfully. Go look up the CAGED system to see how to split the fretboard into five shapes. Use both that system and just plain memory to be able to know on any fret which notes you can use for that key. This is mental practice, don't be touching your guitar while you do it and practice 20 mins a day for a week. At the end of that you know one key all over the neck. 11 to go, use a combination of memory + the five CAGED shapes till you can picture all 12 major keys all over the fretboard (take about a month) If you like then do the same for melodic minor, harmonic minor, diminished, and harmonic major. Gets easier the more you do it and before long you know every scale all over the neck that you will ever use.

Next build structures into this framework by anchoring chords and arpeggios onto the shapes you have learned so that wherever you are on the neck you have musical devices to use and aren't lost.

Next do the same with licks, so you have lines starting in each CAGED position for every occasion. 

Lastly is putting it all together, you don't want to be playing a line, stopping, moving position, and playing another....there are 8 types of movement on the guitar...up, down, left right, and the diagonal planes.....write lines and invent techniques for each type of movement to get you between shapes. This is where true creativity comes in...backed by solid knowledge and techniques, with everything in a moveable framework you can use to never, ever be lost again.

I was doing a PhD based on this stuff once, developing advanced learning techniques for music (specialising in guitar) so I do know what I'm talking about. 

If you wanna say thanks, do it by being a better musician using what I've just said.


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## texshred777 (Jun 23, 2012)

I agree, the CAGED system is what helped me get past box shapes and generic chords. Once you learn all your intervals and root shapes it's easier to learn to apply all those wonderful things you pick up about theory.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 23, 2012)

For starters: musictheory.net

Learn the intervals. Have them down cold. Know the difference between a major and a minor seventh, between a perfect fourth and an augmented fourth, between an octave and a diminished octave (more of a concept than a practical reality, but still, know what it means). Most of the way that I navigate on the fretboard is through intervals.

Next, you want to get a sense of voice leading. This is where most guitarists fall short, because the way we learn our instruments doesn't lend itself to the parsimonious treatment of voices. Within a given key, every note has a tendency: each one wants to go to another, and all of those ultimately want to end up on the tonic. There is an order to those tendencies, and it's a little complicated for me to type into one post, but I can hook you up with some materials if you PM me. Some people trying to explain voice leading:

Voice Leading Tips - Part I
Tom Pankhurst's TonalityGUIDE (pilot project)
Guitar Chord Lessons : Voice Leading
http://thenextstepguitar.com/lessons/voicelead01.html


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## Solodini (Jun 24, 2012)

I agree with SW on navigation by intervals. That's how I work, as well. It means you'll be fine in any other tuning without needing to rememorise the entire fingerboard. 

Try working with/for other musicians so you are forced to use theory as what it is:a tool for communication. 

Try analysing other people's music and working out what notes, scales, chords, degrees of the chord are being used at any one time them try to emulate that function. The note and it's function will be relevant as it will help you to replicate something you like, just like learning the dimensions of a strong table, so you can build one yourself without your dinner ending up on the floor. 

The full ebook of my book (as linked in my sig) is available for free at the moment so snatch that up and if you have any difficulty with it then I'll happily help you out. Also, if you share the link to the free download then I'll give you 2 free Skype lessons. That should help you on the road to understanding and using.


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## phrygian12 (Jun 24, 2012)

I'm no Schecter Whore










but here's my two cents and I'm sure you already know most of this stuff so just skip to the end in red. 

Personally for me I had learned all the notes on the neck by using octaves. 
I started out with just the Low E and A string, once you learn the notes on those two you'll know the notes on the D,G and B string using octaves. After using it for a while you'll just start to remember what is what. 

I suggest just learning all the natural notes on the E string, don't worry about enharmonics, for now they don't exist to you.Try learning just 4 notes on the low E string. That'd be E,F,G,A. Once you get familiar with them, then learn B,C,D,and E. Once you learn all 8 natural notes on the E string, you'll know 8 natural notes on the D string and of course the high E string, also 7 notes plus more pass the 12th fret since the notes just repeat themselves. 

By simply playing the octave of whatever note you're playing on the Low E string. Repeat this same idea with the A string and you'll know 8 Natural notes on the G and B string. 






Once you get familiar enough with it, anytime you need say a C note on the B string. you'd know that C is one half step away from B, so that' be the first fret. Say you wanted C on the A string, that'd be the 3rd fret on the A string. C on the G string? that'd be the 5th fret. C on the high E string? that'd be the 8th fret and of course it's also on the 8th fret Low E string. 

So what do we do with those pesky Sharps or Flats? Well if you know where C is on the B string, where would C# be? A half step up of course so that'd be the second fret on the B string and it'd be the fourth fret on the A string and so on and so on using the octaves. Bam, you know every damn note on the fretboard and could transpose any scale or chord any where on the fretboard. 

As far as Scale patterns go, those can be kind of a mess ( just like my post ) 

On piano if someone hits a middle C there's only one way to play that middle C on piano. On guitar you can play that middle C two different ways, Low E string 8th Fret or A string 3rd fret. So if there's two different ways ( positions) of playing the very same note. imagine how many different ways of playing a pattern. 

Here's three different(practical)ways of playing six notes.








As far as modes go on guitar, they can either be seven different ways of playing the major scale or seven individual scales. 

So 7 patterns x 3 practical different ways that comes out to 21 different ways of playing a freak'n scale, you'd have to memorize all of them!





...not really..

I find that if you know them as groups of six(3 notes per string) you can really move around in octaves a lot easier and they're more recognizable when trying to memorizing 7 different patterns. The other various patterns will sort of open up when you've became very fluent and want to explore different ways of playing a musical phrase.

Which will open up more ideas to you since it'd be doing something your not use to playing that specific way or it could allow you to play something that's difficult one way, but much easier another. etc etc 

I'm not sure if you know Diatonic theory and what not, but anyway when it comes to improvising , I think a majority of us go on auto pilot and just play those patterns. muscle memory is pretty cool, specially when you gather a musical vocabulary that spark off your own ideas in that moment of improvising.

But anyway, I think that's how most of us deal with that visual problem, we simply use muscle memory and knowing your notes on the fretboard will help a ton when you get into voice leading and harmony,etc.


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## ArrowHead (Jun 26, 2012)

I currently use this book as part of my daily practice. It's doing exactly what you want, bridging the theory/staff to guitar gap.

Amazon.com: Music Theory Workbook for Guitar Volume One (9781890944520): Bruce Arnold: Books

(annoyingly the preview pages are all of the intro, and not of the exercises and format that the rest of the book contains.)

Basically it's page after page of exercises. Write out an interval, triad, chord, etc... on the staff, and also write it in a chord diagram/box. It's a great way to bridge that gap, seeing something on the staff and then building it on the guitar. The answers are in the back of the book, so if you're struggling with something you can check your work against theirs. (there's even a website to get alternate answers, since each chord can be written in more than one position/shape)

I also spend time each day in my Real Book. I spend a bit of practice time trying to read/sight read music I'm not familiar with. Then I compare what I've got with a recording of the original tune, to see how well I did or if I have any wrong notes.

In addition, after reading and learning the melody I'll go back through the chords and try to analyze what they function as in the song. In other words, I'll write out the chord type and numeral (ii7, etc...) over the chords written on the chart to get an idea of what's going on.


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## metalaxxe11 (Jun 27, 2012)

I really want to be able to apply theory to the guitar better. Just finished my HNC in music but for some reason they only taught theory for 1 block (out of 3). Need to come up with a routine to know what notes im hitting more often. 

I mean i can play through modes 1-6 (major to minor and i dont know locraine by memory) but its only in the one position, if i were to be in a different part of the neck then id be completely lost


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## Solodini (Jun 28, 2012)

Give my ebook a go, metalaxxe. It's free, an'that. What's to lose!


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## tuneinrecords (Jun 28, 2012)

Yeah that CAGED stuff is pretty helpful. It definitely was important in my development. It's not everything - but it's a lot. In Bill Evans Fretboard Logic Series, he centers his approach around the CAGED concept. 

It should also be noted (as did Mr. Evans) that music theory and fretboard theory are two different subjects and should be focused on separately but then get mashed together in the end.


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## Dan_Vacant (Jun 28, 2012)

What are some places that explain the CAGED system (books, websites, etc..)
so for all I understand of it. is you start on C and end on D or if you start on A you end on E and that the C-D chord over lap one another.


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## skeels (Jun 28, 2012)

The thing that opened up the fretboard for me- and it sounds like you've got some fundamentals down- was the idea of the unitar.

Ok, follow me here. All guitar is just one string.

I know! One String dot org, right? 

All those patterns are just repeating sets of intervals on strings that just happen to overlap each other on their way up and down into infinity. 
Try a new tuning and see how far those patterns take you.
Fark, I have to learn a whole new pattern for every scale! ?

No.

Learn the major scale up an down one string and you have learned all the modes.

Don't believe me?

You've already started singing the notes.
do re mi fa so la ti do. 
Second mode? Re mi fa so la ti do re!
Yeah... next? Mi fa so la ti do re mi!
You got it!

The sounds produced by the notes in relationship to one another are what give music its characteristic "feelings" This is the voice leading. Push, pull, resolution ..

Sing and listen to yourself sing, just like you listen to yourself play.
You'll find you already know more than you thought!


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## Dayn (Jun 28, 2012)

I scrounged up this old post I made: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...es/171607-learning-how-learn.html#post2668292

I discuss visualising the fretboard there, and learning how to recognise patterns. That's what it's all about, really. Simply knowing the names of the notes you need is fine if you're writing music... but it's useless if you don't know how to play them on your instrument. That's where you learn to recognise patterns, and how different frets and strings relate to each other.

As a short excerpt, you said the 7th fret on the A string is E. Perfect! You know that you can play the same note at different places on the neck. Now, where else is that E? Move up a string... and since you moved up a string and you're in standard tuning, there's obviously an E on the 2nd fret of the D string. What if you went the other way? There's an E on the 12th fret on the E string:
D|-2
A|-7
E|-12

All the same note! So what about octaves? Well, you know the octave shape, right?
G|-9
D|-14
A|-7
E|-0-12

If you want to play an octave, add 12. You're on fret 0, so to play an octave, move up 12 frets. You then play the 12th fret.

Want to move it up a string? Subtract 5 because you're moving up a string. Ah, 7th fret A string! Do it again. Ah, 2nd fret D string! Now go up another octave. You add 12, and you're at the 14th fret D string! Wait a minute, that octave shape earlier...
G|-9
D|-
A|-7
E|-

What about that 14th fret on the D string? Well, you also played the 12th fret on the E string, so...
D|-14
A|-
E|-12

Aha, same shape! Learn how to play all the open strings in different positions. That's E, B, G, D, and A taken care of. Then you just have G, C, and F. What about sharps and flats? Who cares! Just move up or down a fret for that. You know the basic places of notes, now all you need to do is learn the patterns that each interval form. Of course, you have to take into account the jump from the G to the B string; that's a major third, instead of a perfect fourth like the rest of the strings.

From your example, you said you cannot visualise an augmented fourth, which the Lydian scale contains. This is what a fourth looks like, in comparison to the root on E:
A|-0 (fourth)
E|-0 (root)

An augmented fourth requires you to sharp it. So:
A|-1 (augmented fourth)
E|-0 (root)


From there, it's just really learning the patterns that each interval form, and learning how to play them anywhere. Then if you want to play a scale, you just need to know its formula and where to find the root note.

I covered unisons and octaves... you just need to figure out fifths and fourths, augmented fourths/diminished fifths, major and minor seconds; major and minor thirds; major and minor sixths; and major and minor sevenths. It's a bit of a long haul, but when you can recognise a pattern... say, see this:
D|-5
A|-
E|-4

You'll be able to say "That's just below A so it's an Ab, and the pattern they form there is a major seventh. I'm playing an Ab and a G together."

I hope that helped. I think I rambled more than anything, sorry.


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## skeels (Jun 29, 2012)

Hey! +111 for Solodini's book! 

Just downloaded it- Excellent!


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## wespaul (Jun 29, 2012)

Dan_Vacant said:


> What are some places that explain the CAGED system (books, websites, etc..)
> so for all I understand of it. is you start on C and end on D or if you start on A you end on E and that the C-D chord over lap one another.



Lick Library's "Fretboard Navigator Vol. 1" DVD explains it perfectly (both major and minor chord shapes). It also goes over a pretty good method for being able to find any note on the fretboard and know what it is. The major scale and intervals found with all the shapes are explained and how they're related. It actually has a pretty good exercise for going through the fretboard by 4ths and playing every single note or chord. Like starting with playing all the F notes or F chords on the fretboard, then moving to all the Bb notes/chords. You can nail all of them in under two minutes. Doing this and ingraining the interval relationships every day will open the fretboard for you pretty quickly.


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## viesczy (Jun 29, 2012)

Don't over think mode (if you know the major scale shape you know the modes), but over HEAR the modes. Go through the modes and just hear their flavors, play or listen to them over a few times. A few will speak to your ear, you'll rip into them and make them yours, then the others will open up to you. 

Once you actually hear the progression AND hear the modes over the progression all will make sense to you. 

Music is a language; getting deeply involved in theory is learning the nuances of the language's grammar after being able to speak said language. You learn vocabulary and then you learn why to speak that certain way. 

Hear the modes speak to you, get a grip on their color and feel (learning the vocabulary) and once you got that down you'll "get" why they work. 

I used to over think the modes too, thinking too much on what to do than actually just doing it, feeling them, and hearing them. I tend to hear music as the geometry over the fretboard now, that really helped me. I hear the music like shapes and then I "hear" the shapes I want to put into the music. 

Does that sound odd?

Derek


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## tuneinrecords (Jun 29, 2012)

Learning the major scale is helpful and will deliver you the modes off of that scale, but that is not ALL the modes. What about the modes built off of the harmonic minor and melodic minor scales? 

I agree that playing scales on 1 string is very helpful in understanding where the whole and half steps are and what scale degrees you're dealing with. 

Before you get crazy with trying to learn every scale remember that you need to have the major and natural minor scales learned inside and out. Know their formulas and then the other modes and scales that you learn will be easier to get. For example the Dorian mode is just the natural minor scale with a major 6th in it. The Mixolydian mode is just like the major scale except that it has a flat seventh.


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## skeels (Jun 29, 2012)

^Aha! Yes absolutely! And where does the Hungarian scale fit in? (Or whatever the name goes by- you know, and whole tone scales?) and chromatics? Suspensions? Inversions?

The real meat- what do we do with all this stuff we learn?

Music is about the invisible, the intangible. The relationship between the shape and the color of the notes. The breathing between the rhythm and the movement. Music is what happens all around the science of the sounds we make.

Why does a major relationship sound "happy "?
Damned if I know.

Why does the minor relationship sound "sad"?
Got me.

I do know, however, that if you play a melody that contains both, people will think it's silly as hell and usually they will smile cuz it's so damned silly-sounding!
Especially if you put bends in it.

The best teachers will tell you to learn all that you can, and then forget it.

Blast their zen-like ways!


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## Solodini (Jun 30, 2012)

I imagine harmonic consonance is why, in the sense of the vibrations working to support each other, rather than canceling each other out.


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## gandalf (Jun 30, 2012)

Hi Daniel. I suggest that you first establish what it is you want to be able to play so you dont get the feeling of spending of something that is not relevant for you. If you want to be able to improvise no matter if you are playing standard jazz, rock or metal then you need to learn scales and how they pertain to chords. One think I found helpfull was that the scale came first and then the chord is made up from the scale. So its actually quite simple to get the basics like a chord is composed from every other note from the major scale... this way you get a pattern that can be used on all the modes creating different chords this way. Bit remember a journey of a thousands steps start with one  so practice one scale pattern until you can actually play it all over the neck and try making music from this one pattern while listening to a cd... this way you will see the benefits of knowing a scale and that the scale is just a tool to make music. Then the triad from the first pattern or mode would be a major(if you are learning the major scale) and if you keep adding every other note from the scale you will get more and more interresting chords. so after the triad you get Major 7 - Major 9 - Major 11 and finally Major 13. I hope this makes sence and remember to start small to master anything


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## skeels (Jun 30, 2012)

Solodini said:


> I imagine harmonic consonance is why, in the sense of the vibrations working to support each other, rather than canceling each other out.



Sweet. Now we are traveling away from the science of music to the philosophy of music!

Does a minor third actually contain dissonance? Or do the vibrations produced by the relationship of this note to the tonic pull itself toward the root?

And why are these "pulls" so appealing in music?

What is it about this haunting loneliness that appeals to up so much as human beings?

Is it the nature of our condition?

Is it the sympathetic resonance of the sounds?


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## tuneinrecords (Jul 1, 2012)

Yeah Skeels. I like where you're going with this. I heard that the pentatonic scale is one of the first to come on the scene. It sounds the way it does because of the distance between the 5 fingers of the human hand. Somebody made a flute to fit their hand and the rest is history. I think it's all tied back to sacred geometry - the human body being a part of it all.


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## Solodini (Jul 1, 2012)

I think the pentatonic scale probably found use before that. There's a video of that guy whose name I know and it's eluding me just now. The guy who did "Don't Worry, Be Happy". Anyway, him with an audience of non musicians and he bounces side to side. He gives them 3 notes which he hops to then hops past and without being told, the audience fill in the next note of the pentatonic scale and the same happens the other way.


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## ChronicConsumer (Jul 1, 2012)

Solodini said:


> I think the pentatonic scale probably found use before that. There's a video of that guy whose name I know and it's eluding me just now. The guy who did "Don't Worry, Be Happy". Anyway, him with an audience of non musicians and he bounces side to side. He gives them 3 notes which he hops to then hops past and without being told, the audience fill in the next note of the pentatonic scale and the same happens the other way.



That'd be Bobby McFerrin, if I recall correctly. For some reason people keep thinking Bob Marley wrote that song.. ah well.


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## Solodini (Jul 1, 2012)

That's the one! Bobby McFerrin.


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## celticelk (Jul 1, 2012)

I think the pentatonic scale is so widespread because those notes are reasonably consonant in their various combinations, and because they don't require accurate resolution of pitches a half-step apart, which is difficult for the average human. The sacred geometry theory is nice and mystical and all, but unnecessary to explain the phenomenon.


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## Aspiringmaestro (Jul 1, 2012)

trippled said:


> Hi,
> 
> So, it's been alot of time I've been trying to discipline myself to learn some deeper theory than major-minor scale-triads-etc.. I went to a jazz teacher
> for a few lessons but stopped because of money issues.
> ...



From what I can gather from lurking message boards, it seems that a lot of people desire to learn music theory, which is good, but lack an understanding of what role music theory plays for a musician. That lack of understanding becomes a source of frustration when you've managed to memorize a list of things(chord extensions, scales/modes, etc.) but can't find any application for them. I think that frustration is what I am sensing in your post.

So the first thing that I would address is the question of what you hope to achieve by learning music theory. Do you want to learn to jamm over fusion tracks? Do you want to know how to expand you chord voicings? Do you want learn to compose? What is it that you want to learn how to do?

Once you know what you want to learn how to do, then you can find the theory that describes it, which will make the theory a practical way of describing an action instead of some mysterious force the is supposed to govern how you act.


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## trippled (Jul 4, 2012)

Aspiringmaestro said:


> From what I can gather from lurking message boards, it seems that a lot of people desire to learn music theory, which is good, but lack an understanding of what role music theory plays for a musician. That lack of understanding becomes a source of frustration when you've managed to memorize a list of things(chord extensions, scales/modes, etc.) but can't find any application for them. I think that frustration is what I am sensing in your post.
> 
> So the first thing that I would address is the question of what you hope to achieve by learning music theory. Do you want to learn to jamm over fusion tracks? Do you want to know how to expand you chord voicings? Do you want learn to compose? What is it that you want to learn how to do?
> 
> Once you know what you want to learn how to do, then you can find the theory that describes it, which will make the theory a practical way of describing an action instead of some mysterious force the is supposed to govern how you act.



More than anything, I wanna know how to improvise over chords, especially ala quayle.


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## Solodini (Jul 5, 2012)

In which case, learn scales and modes so you have a broad understanding of the effects of #4s, b7s et c. on the wider sound and resolution of a passage. Learn chord construction as a subtraction of that then start examining the music of others to see where the chord tones crop up in melodies (not just improvised "fusion" stuff. Pop melodies are your friend) and examine the function of the notes leading to and from them. Try to emulate the functions served. 

That doesn't need to be in improv form, yet. You can't use something on the fly if you don't know how to use it when planning it. Spend time composing with the ideas you glean as improv is just on the fly composition, when you know what will work so you don't need to write it down and then rehearse it. 

Don't overlook rhythm. A lot of great stuff relies on simple crossed rhythms such as a phrase of 3 equal length notes repeating over a bar of 4, causing the notes of the phrase to align differently each time, implying different chord tones.


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## Aspiringmaestro (Jul 5, 2012)

trippled said:


> More than anything, I wanna know how to improvise over chords, especially ala quayle.



Do you know anything about improvising over chord progressions? If the answer is yes, would you mind telling us what it is?


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## stuglue (Jul 6, 2012)

From what I understand from the original post you want to be knowledgeable of the fretboard as you aren't sure where the notes are.

Well, before learning scales or anything else you want to be practising a method which will get the notes locked into your brain and fingers. If like me you want to do that as efficiently, thoroughly and as quickly as possible then I have a tip for you.

1. Get a map of the fretboard with the notes on each fret on each string.
print it off and stick it on a wall where you practice.
2. And this is the bit which will help you the most, get yourself a book about learning to read music for guitar players (these books teach where the notes on stave fall on which frets on the guitar).

From there put the metronome on a slow speed and practice some very very basic reading of simple melodies. This takes time but with practice the notes will be ingrained into your fingers.
I used tab for years but when I was taught this approach it showed how I didn't know the fretboard as well as what I thought I did.
The challenge comes when you start speeding the tempo up and you are having to think faster and move to the notes quicker


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## Solodini (Jul 6, 2012)

I strongly disagree. I find intervals to be the most economical way of navigating the fingerboard. Intervals up the string and intervals between strings, determined by tuning. If you learn to see numbers of frets as intervals you can quickly learn your way around any tuning.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 6, 2012)

Well in regard to the lydian thing... I had to come up with a way to think about the board too and then suddenly it clicked...

If your guitar is tuned in 4ths that means that when ascending--let's say you're going from the E string to the A--the same fret on adjacent strings is a fourth. Lydian has a raised fourth because the fourth of the lydian mode is a half step above this. But that's going too far if you're not familiar with everything I'm saying so let me back up for just a tad.

Here's the F Ionian (unless SchecterWhore pwns me)...

-------------------------
-------------------------
-------------------------
-------------2-----------
-------1-3-5-------------
-1-3-5-------------------

Count up to the fourth note. It's the same fret as the first note one string away. 

Now here's an F lydian (These are modes of completely different scales by the way, but that's another story for another post)

-----------------------
-----------------------
-----------------------
--------------2--------
-------2-4-5-----------
-1-3-5-----------------

Here our fourth isn't where the tuning dictates it should be. It's raised a half step. 

Understanding this kind of stuff is one of the first steps in learning to construct runs and what not. From there you'll feel like you learn something every time you pick up the guitar. This will pass.


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## Enselmis (Jul 6, 2012)

tuneinrecords said:


> Yeah that CAGED stuff is pretty helpful. It definitely was important in my development. It's not everything - but it's a lot. In Bill Evans Fretboard Logic Series, he centers his approach around the CAGED concept.
> 
> It should also be noted (as did Mr. Evans) that music theory and fretboard theory are two different subjects and should be focused on separately but then get mashed together in the end.



So close dude. Try Bill Edwards. Bill Evans is a TOTALLY different dude!


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## tuneinrecords (Jul 6, 2012)

Enselmis said:


> So close dude. Try Bill Edwards. Bill Evans is a TOTALLY different dude!



Damn you're right! Must have been another late night post by me. My apologies. Haha, I actually have a Bill Evans instructional bass vhs here somewhere. Thanks for the correction.


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## Enselmis (Jul 6, 2012)

tuneinrecords said:


> Damn you're right! Must have been another late night post by me. My apologies. Haha, *I actually have a Bill Evans instructional bass vhs here somewhere.* Thanks for the correction.



Are you 100% sure about? He is definitely not a bass player.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 7, 2012)

Plays in a reggae band on the weekends.


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## tuneinrecords (Jul 7, 2012)

AAHH! Haha! Sorry, this is who I was thinking of. Bill Dickens!


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## ArrowHead (Jul 7, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Here's the F Ionian
> 
> Now here's an F lydian (*These are modes of completely different scales* by the way, but that's another story for another post)



I'm not arguing, but trying to learn/re-learn this stuff:

Wouldn't these be modes of the SAME scale (F Major)? I understand the notes are borrowed from C Major with F Lydian, but isn't F lydian a mode of F Major? Wouldn't they be both be used in the context of F major? 

Like I said, not arguing. Just trying to start back at the beginning 20 years after I learned all this stuff.


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## ChronicConsumer (Jul 7, 2012)

ArrowHead said:


> I'm not arguing, but trying to learn/re-learn this stuff:
> 
> Wouldn't these be modes of the SAME scale (F Major)? I understand the notes are borrowed from C Major with F Lydian, but isn't F lydian a mode of F Major? Wouldn't they be both be used in the context of F major?
> 
> Like I said, not arguing. Just trying to start back at the beginning 20 years after I learned all this stuff.



F lydian is a mode of C major because it uses the notes of the C major scale, only thing is it resolves to an F. That means the note "A" for example no longer functions as a major sixth, but as a major third (because the tonic, the 'starting point' is an F, not a C).
However, as you said, F lydian can definitely be used in the context of F major. The only difference between F lydian and F major is the raised fourth in the lydian scale; using F lydian over an F major progression is definitely going to sound a little.. odd, if you will, when you use the raised fourth (it really stands out). Whether you use this or not, it's all up to you. Can YOU make it work?
The reason for this is, music theory (as used in most modern music) isn't a book of rules, but a language: it's used to explain musical scenarios.
That's the way I see it, anyway.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 7, 2012)

ArrowHead said:


> I'm not arguing, but trying to learn/re-learn this stuff:
> 
> Wouldn't these be modes of the SAME scale (F Major)? I understand the notes are borrowed from C Major with F Lydian, but isn't F lydian a mode of F Major? Wouldn't they be both be used in the context of F major?
> 
> Like I said, not arguing. Just trying to start back at the beginning 20 years after I learned all this stuff.



There are two kinds of modal relationships: relative and parallel. Relative modes are those that contain the same pitch classes.

F major - F G A Bb C D E
D minor - D E F G A Bb C
E locrian - E F G A Bb C D

Those are all rotations of the same set of pitches, with a different note being heard as the tonic for each one.

Parallel relationships maintain the same tonic for each scale, but the pitch content of the key/scale changes.

F major - F G A Bb C D E
F minor - F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
F phrygian - F Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb


When we say that something is a mode of something, we are talking about the relative relationship. I.e. D minor and F major are modes of one another, or they are relative to one another.


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## barfarkas (Jul 8, 2012)

joe pass would play a chord, play the corresponding arpeggio, play the chord again, then play the corresponding scale. if you could do that for every chord and all it's inversions you would have alot of tools to work with.


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