# Any Brits here?



## hairychris

Are you enjoying today's political car-crash?


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## vilk

Tell us non-Brits what the car crash is!!


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## Drew

Their government is basically falling apart over the Brexit negotiations - the latest casualty was Boris Johnson, who led the Brexit campaign and quit because May wasn't going far enough, in his opinion.

Sure it isn't too late to just hold a second referendum and decide that the whole thing was a mistake? I'm honestly a little shocked Corbyn hasn't had the nerve to call for that.


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## hairychris

Drew said:


> Their government is basically falling apart over the Brexit negotiations - the latest casualty was Boris Johnson, who led the Brexit campaign and quit because May wasn't going far enough, in his opinion.



This is after the cabinet meeting on Friday agreed things. Davis quit, Johnson likely only did because of that and if he sticks around his career would be more sunk.

Note: the only thing that these people care about are themselves, Johnson being by far the worst in that respect.

Note 2: It's 99.9% certain that whatever was agreed on Friday will be shot down by the EU anyway. Our ministers have absolutely no contact with reality, although today's resignations seem to imply that they're finally twigging.



Drew said:


> Sure it isn't too late to just hold a second referendum and decide that the whole thing was a mistake? I'm honestly a little shocked Corbyn hasn't had the nerve to call for that.



Hahahaha no. Corbyn is ideologically anti-EU. He'd happily see Brexit happen especially if his name is not attached to the disaster that *will happen** if it goes ahead. He's dreaming of a socialist paradise, but the absolute opposite will happen. He absolutely lost me politically over Europe.

Point: referendums in UK law are only advisory unless specified otherwise. The last one was advisory. There is no legal reason for a government to follow an advisory referendum, although politically is another question.

It's interesting to note that the UK political system is not designed for referendums. The vague question on the exit referendum also didn't help... It asked whether to leave EU but didn't mention CM, customs union, or anything else.

EDIT: * Leaving the EU is a 10-year plus task as there is so much that needs to be unwound, and so many things needing to be set up in the UK incl regulatory bodies and infrastructure. The govt, supposedly staffed by "leavers" has done absolutely nothing to get this underway. Davis's department hadn't even done impact assessments on the UK economy. Well, they did... supposedly... but I had a look at the IT one (being an IT person) and it was total garbage.

We are so screwed.

EDIT 2: A lot of the posturing from the UK pols is towards our right-wing press. Taken in this light a lot is explained...


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## Drew

hairychris said:


> Note: the only thing that these people care about are themselves, Johnson being by far the worst in that respect.
> 
> Hahahaha no. Corbyn is ideologically anti-EU. He'd happily see Brexit happen especially if his name is not attached to the disaster that *will happen** if it goes ahead. He's dreaming of a socialist paradise, but the absolute opposite will happen. He absolutely lost me politically over Europe.



Point #1 - I'm sorry, I apologize, I don't think I made it _nearly_ as clear as I should have how much of an absolute worthless tool Boris is.  

Point #2 - you're obviously up on Corbyn's politics more than I as an American am, but I recall there was some speculation that he might actually have the balls to do it and he hemmed and hawed a bit before coming out in favor of not holding a second referendum. On one hand, yeah, on paper you'd expect him to be more in favor of Brexit than not, but on the other, a second chance at averting Brexit looks like it may actually be a winning political position, and considering Corbyn is a politician, after all, I kinda thought he might roll the dice.


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## hairychris

Drew said:


> Point #1 - I'm sorry, I apologize, I don't think I made it _nearly_ as clear as I should have how much of an absolute worthless tool Boris is.



Haha!



Drew said:


> Point #2 - you're obviously up on Corbyn's politics more than I as an American am, but I recall there was some speculation that he might actually have the balls to do it and he hemmed and hawed a bit before coming out in favor of not holding a second referendum. On one hand, yeah, on paper you'd expect him to be more in favor of Brexit than not, but on the other, a second chance at averting Brexit looks like it may actually be a winning political position, and considering Corbyn is a politician, after all, I kinda thought he might roll the dice.



Ugh.

Corbyn is an old-school leftie who, unfortunately, is still stuck in the 80s politically. He was pretty much a constant rebel, and through an impressive grass-roots campaign got to be leader of Labour.

There are, however, problems with him:

> He has some really dubious friends, and has a history of pro-USSR (as was) and pro-terrorist (anti-imperialist ones) ties. I'm meh on this but it leaves a bad taste for a lot of people.

> He's ideologically inflexible. This isn't helpful, and reminds me more of Student Union "purity above all" politics as opposed to getting anything practical done.

> His own party doesn't fully support him, especially over Brexit.

> There's been a depressing reappearance of left-wing anti-semitism (traditional anti-Israel/pro-Palestine from left, sure, but a lot of more general problems and Labour leadership not stamping on it). Yeah, the right are more racist but this is still not great.

What's ironic is that he got to become Labour leader by appealing to a young audience. The same audience that is hugely pro-EU. I dread to think what will happen when he sells these people down the line on the EU.

None of this is doing my depression & anxiety any good. Been a tough couple of years for someone who's a lefty but very pro-Europe.


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## StevenC

I hope Brexit fails so Northern Ireland can continue struggling along on what little economy we have.


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## hairychris

StevenC said:


> I hope Brexit fails so Northern Ireland can continue struggling along on what little economy we have.



Many moons ago I went out with a girl from Norn Iron. It was quite eye-opening on several fronts!


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## Anquished

Yep. Sat back with some popcorn.


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## BenjaminW

hairychris said:


> Haha!
> 
> 
> 
> Ugh.
> 
> Corbyn is an old-school leftie who, unfortunately, is still stuck in the 80s politically. He was pretty much a constant rebel, and through an impressive grass-roots campaign got to be leader of Labour.
> 
> There are, however, problems with him:
> 
> > He has some really dubious friends, and has a history of pro-USSR (as was) and pro-terrorist (anti-imperialist ones) ties. I'm meh on this but it leaves a bad taste for a lot of people.


Can he save the UK from the horrors of evil capitalism?


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## vilk




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## Vyn

Brexit is a total shit-show, it should have never been a thing. The vote SHOULD have been in favour of staying in the EU and that would have been the end of it, but some hard-right Tories shouted up and down, outright lied and swayed enough stupid idiots to believe them. There is absolutely NO situation in which the UK is actually better off leaving the EU.

I'm glad Boris Johnston has resigned, the man is a complete and utter fucking pillock. SMH.


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## hairychris

BenjaminW said:


> Can he save the UK from the horrors of evil capitalism?



Nope.

Him supporting Brexit is more likely to turn the UK into a crappy tax haven instead of a socialist paradise. He has no clue.


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## BenjaminW

hairychris said:


> Nope.
> 
> Him supporting Brexit is more likely to turn the UK into a crappy tax haven instead of a socialist paradise. He has no clue.


Different response than what I'd anticipated...


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## r33per

hairychris said:


> Many moons ago I went out with a girl from Norn Iron. It was quite eye-opening on several fronts!


Unionist or Loyalist front?

Brexit great, really. A PM has a national vote to settle a dispute in his own party, ends up ruining it for everyone.

I'm from a Scottish town that has been seriously hampered by the common fisheries policy, but i think folk are delusional if they believe that being out of EU will somehow improve their lot.

To cap it all, there's been protests about some golf club owner coming to the UK.


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## StevenC

r33per said:


> Unionist or Loyalist front?


Judean People's Front or the People's Front of Judea?


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## r33per

StevenC said:


> Judean People's Front or the People's Front of Judea?


It's all an affront...

Straw poll: second referendum, are you for or against?


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## StevenC

Second referendum please.


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## Anquished

I'd be interested to see how different a second referendum result would be. I'm sure I saw some polls somewhere that indicated many Leave voters regretted their decision.


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## Viginez

StevenC said:


> Second referendum please.


vote till you get the result politicians want. educate the voter. referendum on a referendum. true democracy.


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## hairychris

r33per said:


> Unionist or Loyalist front?



Prod of Scottish descent. She had mental stories about working her family's business and everyone had to change names when working Catholic/Unionist events (her name is.... *very *Loyalist...).

Still, she's very equitable and absolutely loathes the DUP!



r33per said:


> UBrexit great, really. A PM has a national vote to settle a dispute in his own party, ends up ruining it for everyone.
> 
> I'm from a Scottish town that has been seriously hampered by the common fisheries policy, but i think folk are delusional if they believe that being out of EU will somehow improve their lot.
> 
> To cap it all, there's been protests about some golf club owner coming to the UK.



Yeah. It's all nonsense!


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## hairychris

BenjaminW said:


> Different response than what I'd anticipated...



I might be a bit slow on the uptake but I'm not sure what you expected!

I'm lefty-ish and think that Corbyn is a liability.



Viginez said:


> vote till you get the result politicians want. educate the voter. referendum on a referendum. true democracy.



The problem is that the UK's political system doesn't work very well with referendums. We're a representative democracy as opposed to a direct one, and on a legal front any referendum is not binding unless specifically made so in the act. This one? Legally non-binding. However the government took it as _politically_ binding which isn't quite the same.

One thing that's interesting is that the Brexiter politicians started out by saying that we'll still be part of the common market (indeed, many campaigned on it) but now they're shouting for cliff-edge or nothing.

So, with this in mind, the referendum itself was massively problematic because it did not specify what the exit criteria would be. It would be like if remain won we'd go fully into the Euro, Schengen, and dump all of our opt-outs.


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## StevenC

Viginez said:


> vote till you get the result politicians want. educate the voter. referendum on a referendum. true democracy.


Campaign was based on lies, lots of people voted based on the lies, lots of people voted as a protest to the way the EU is currently run not expecting Leave to win. Now one way or the other we're not getting the result anyone wanted, so yeah I think we should have another referendum. Whatever deal or not we get won't make anyone happy. 


hairychris said:


> Prod of Scottish descent. She had mental stories about working her family's business and everyone had to change names when working Catholic/Unionist events (her name is.... *very *Loyalist...).
> 
> Still, she's very equitable and absolutely loathes the DUP!
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah. It's all nonsense!


I'm starting to think I have a different definition of Unionists to you guys. Republican is the opposite of Unionist or Loyalist, which are shades of the same thing, right?


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## Nonads

Did UK citizens even vote to join the EU? And why don’t they use the Euro currency?


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## BenjaminW

hairychris said:


> I might be a bit slow on the uptake but I'm not sure what you expected!
> 
> I'm lefty-ish and think that Corbyn is a liability.


I meant my response as a joke and wasn't expecting a serious response at all. It's cool though. I agree with you though on Corbyn being a liability even though I'm on the complete opposite side of the spectrum as far as political views go.


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## r33per

Nonads said:


> Did UK citizens even vote to join the EU? And why don’t they use the Euro currency?


The UK tried to join the EU (or whatever its genesis name was) after the second world war, but France blocked it. It wasn't until the early 70s that we had a referendum, joined the Economic Union and our involvement ran on from there.

The Euro is a separate issue. When it came about there was an opt-in by member states - someone correct me if I'm wrong here - but the UK, under both Conservative and Labour governments, elected not to do so.

All best summed up by Sir Humphrey Appleby from the BBC comedy Yes, Minister:

*Sir Humphrey*: Minister, Britain has had the same foreign policy objective for at least the last five hundred years: to create a disunited Europe. In that cause we have fought with the Dutch against the Spanish, with the Germans against the French, with the French and Italians against the Germans, and with the French against the Germans and Italians. Divide and rule, you see. Why should we change now, when it's worked so well?
*Hacker*: That's all ancient history, surely?
*Sir Humphrey*: Yes, and current policy. We _had_ to break the whole thing [the EEC] up, so we _had_ to get inside. We tried to break it up from the outside, but that wouldn't work. Now that we're inside we can make a complete pig's breakfast of the whole thing — set the Germans against the French, the French against the Italians, the Italians against the Dutch... The Foreign Office is terribly pleased; it's just like old times.


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## hairychris

StevenC said:


> Campaign was based on lies, lots of people voted based on the lies, lots of people voted as a protest to the way the EU is currently run not expecting Leave to win. Now one way or the other we're not getting the result anyone wanted, so yeah I think we should have another referendum. Whatever deal or not we get won't make anyone happy.



The genie's out of the bottle. Even if the economy isn't totally tanked it'll teke decades for society to get over this.

It's depressing.



StevenC said:


> I'm starting to think I have a different definition of Unionists to you guys. Republican is the opposite of Unionist or Loyalist, which are shades of the same thing, right?



Unionist = (UK) Loyalist = generally Protestant = want to remain part of "The Union" (United Kingdom) ruled from London

Republican = (Irish) Nationalist = generally Catholic = want to unite the counties of Ulster (aka Northern Ireland) with the Republic of Ireland/Eire.

There are folks on this site who are from Ireland & Northern Ireland, and I don't want to go into the politics as I'm likely to get it very wrong!


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## hairychris

BenjaminW said:


> I meant my response as a joke and wasn't expecting a serious response at all. It's cool though. I agree with you though on Corbyn being a liability even though I'm on the complete opposite side of the spectrum as far as political views go.



Ah right, I have difficulty picking up humour sometimes (and unfortunately have an almost total sense of humour failure over this shitshow)!



r33per said:


> The UK tried to join the EU (or whatever its genesis name was) after the second world war, but France blocked it. It wasn't until the early 70s that we had a referendum, joined the Economic Union and our involvement ran on from there.
> 
> The Euro is a separate issue. When it came about there was an opt-in by member states - someone correct me if I'm wrong here - but the UK, under both Conservative and Labour governments, elected not to do so.



Yeah, pretty much. AFAIK though new countries who join the EU are expected to work towards joining the Euro. UK hasn't, Poland hasn't, most of the rest have (although there is a legitimate structural issue wrt folks like Italy & Greece being inducted on fudged figures).

What I find hilarious is that if UK ditched the EU and then rejoins it's very likely that joining the Euro will be a condition that we'd have to accept.


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## StevenC

hairychris said:


> Unionist = (UK) Loyalist = generally Protestant = want to remain part of "The Union" (United Kingdom) ruled from London
> 
> Republican = (Irish) Nationalist = generally Catholic = want to unite the counties of Ulster (aka Northern Ireland) with the Republic of Ireland/Eire.
> 
> There are folks on this site who are from Ireland & Northern Ireland, and I don't want to go into the politics as I'm likely to get it very wrong!


Yeah, am from NI and was confused why r33per asked "Unionist or Loyalist" and you mentioned someone with a Loyalist name using a different name for a "Catholic/Unionist" event. With regards NI, it's hard to find a scenario where Catholic and Unionist would be interchangeable.


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## r33per

StevenC said:


> Yeah, am from NI and was confused why r33per asked "Unionist or Loyalist" and you mentioned someone with a Loyalist name using a different name for a "Catholic/Unionist" event. With regards NI, it's hard to find a scenario where Catholic and Unionist would be interchangeable.


Oh...
my bad


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## r33per

hairychris said:


> What I find hilarious is that if UK ditched the EU and then rejoins it's very likely that joining the Euro will be a condition that we'd have to accept.


Oh shades of the Scotland Independence vote in 2014. Vote Yes to become independent of the UK and be governed from Edinburgh, only to then join the EU as a new member state, adpot the Euro and have part governence from Brussels/Strasbourg?


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## hairychris

StevenC said:


> Yeah, am from NI and was confused why r33per asked "Unionist or Loyalist" and you mentioned someone with a Loyalist name using a different name for a "Catholic/Unionist" event. With regards NI, it's hard to find a scenario where Catholic and Unionist would be interchangeable.



Yeah, sorry, got muddled up! Hence trying to avoid the whole politics thing - generally the response to any of my opinions on the subject is "Well... it's actually a lot more complicated" so I'll just not bother. 

But, unlike most of the idiots screaming for hard Brexit, I am actually aware that the NI/Ireland political situation is several disasters waiting to happen.


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## StevenC

hairychris said:


> Yeah, sorry, got muddled up! Hence trying to avoid the whole politics thing - generally the response to any of my opinions on the subject is "Well... it's actually a lot more complicated" so I'll just not bother.
> 
> But, unlike most of the idiots screaming for hard Brexit, I am actually aware that the NI/Ireland political situation is several disasters waiting to happen.


Agreed. The EU and no border between the North and South was one of the best things to happen to Northern Ireland. A hard border could set us back 40 years. It's easy to feel Irish when you can drive from Derry to Dublin without anyone stopping you.


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## Drew

On a happier note, Welsh cyclist Geraint Thomas just became the first Brit to win a stage on the Alp d'Huez in the Tour de France after an absolutely epic stage today, so congrats to you guys.


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## r33per

StevenC said:


> Agreed... A hard border could set us back 40 years.


Ain't nobody wants to go back there.


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## hairychris

Drew said:


> On a happier note, Welsh cyclist Geraint Thomas just became the first Brit to win a stage on the Alp d'Huez in the Tour de France after an absolutely epic stage today, so congrats to you guys.



GT is a monster. Always has been, but inconsistent on the TdF previously. He's still riding for Froome, although the longer he stays in yellow the more difficult the internal politics in the Sky team.


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## Drew

hairychris said:


> GT is a monster. Always has been, but inconsistent on the TdF previously. He's still riding for Froome, although the longer he stays in yellow the more difficult the internal politics in the Sky team.


Honestly, how Sky plays this one could be one of most interesting meta-stories of the Tour. On the Alpe d'Huez climb, Thomas definitely was riding as a domestique during the chase in places, out front pulling... But, Froome jumped out front for a bit too and while Sky dropped another domestique or two from the chase pack, Thomas stayed in (and eventually got the jump on Froome in the sprint - he was careful to explain that he picked his line knowing the only one who could possibly make a move in the last turn was Froome, but he still went for it). 

If I was Sky's coach, I think I'd be calling for exactly what it looks like we just saw - the two riders to ride collaboratively, and only sacrifice Thomas for Froome if it became absolutely necessary to fend off another GC challenger, and try to stay 1-2 as long as possible so that if something unexpected happened to one of them - say, what happened to Niboli, and god knows Froome is a marked man - they had a rider waiting to take over the lead. And, if in the last stage or two they were still 1-2, well... Cross that bridge when they get there. 

Though, some publication, The Guardian, I think, was speculating on the fact that Thomas could be bluffing and Sky's strategy all along was let Dumoulin mark Froome while Thomas pulls ahead with a lead no one expects him to try to hold, while secretly the plan was to let Thomas ride for the GC. It seems a bit of a stretch, at least as a pre-Tour plan, but with Dumoulin sitting a couple seconds off Froome while Thomas is 1:39 up, it's gotta at least be something they're kicking around - if this holds for a few more stages and then Thomas makes a break while Dumoulin, Froome, and at least one other Sky rider are near the front of the peloton, it puts him in an interesting position - do you chase Thomas, the current leader, and risk wearing yourself out on a break that may just be a rouse to wear you out while keeping Froome fresh, but also may be a way for Thomas to turn a minute and a half into six or seven? Or do you stick with Froome and hope someone else can do the heavy lifting reeling in Thomas, but run the risk that the GC contender to watch isn't the one you're hanging with after all? It's a fascinating question, and if it's not one that Sunweb is kicking around between stages, they probably should be.


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## hairychris

It's an interesting race fo' sho'. Including the peloton getting accidentally tear-gassed by French police a bit earlier today!

Anyway, Brexit is still going well.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-retired-eu-europe-theresa-may-a8461166.html

And our parliament now shuts down for the summer.


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## StevenC

hairychris said:


> It's an interesting race fo' sho'. Including the peloton getting accidentally tear-gassed by French police a bit earlier today!
> 
> Anyway, Brexit is still going well.
> 
> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...l-retired-eu-europe-theresa-may-a8461166.html
> 
> And our parliament now shuts down for the summer.


Your parliament only shuts for the summer?


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## hairychris

StevenC said:


> Your parliament only shuts for the summer?



Supposedly.

This shower of twats seem to be doing bugger-all the rest of the time too.


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## StevenC

hairychris said:


> Supposedly.
> 
> This shower of twats seem to be doing bugger-all the rest of the time too.


Our shower of twats hasn't been to work in two years.


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## hairychris

As I've said in other places: this really isn't doing my depression much good! And according to my psychiatrist I am not the only one of her patients with all this crap on their mind either.


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## Drew

hairychris said:


> It's an interesting race fo' sho'. Including the peloton getting accidentally tear-gassed by French police a bit earlier today!


And not even to protest Sky - the damndest thing! This has to be the first time in a Tour the dude in a yellow jersey got tear gassed - add that to the hazards of professional cycling.


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## r33per

Drew said:


> And not even to protest Sky - the damndest thing! This has to be the first time in a Tour the dude in a yellow jersey got tear gassed - add that to the hazards of professional cycling *in France.*


FTFY because it just wouldn't be British if one does not rubbish the French once in a while.


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## hairychris

r33per said:


> FTFY because it just wouldn't be British if one does not rubbish the French once in a while.



Haha.

As a kid I used to go on family holidays to France in the 70s and 80s. Quite a lot of these were disrupted by fishermen blockading ports or lorry drivers blocking motorways.

The French are A+ at industrial disputes. The French police are also fairly well known for being quick to kick off too!


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## _MonSTeR_

hairychris said:


> As I've said in other places: this really isn't doing my depression much good! And according to my psychiatrist I am not the only one of her patients with all this crap on their mind either.



No, please rest assured, you're not the only one who is finding this psychologically hard to deal with.

I just keep reminding myself when it's all over, at least Boris Johnson will keep good on his promise to contribute "350 Million a week to the NHS"... Wait, what's that you say?!??!?


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## thraxil

hairychris said:


> As I've said in other places: this really isn't doing my depression much good! And according to my psychiatrist I am not the only one of her patients with all this crap on their mind either.



Definitely not. I'm an American who moved here about six months before Brexit. We were living in NL before and moved when my partner got a good offer from a university here. We were well on our way to getting permanent residence in NL but thought "no problem, the UK is still in the EU. It'll set us back a little bit, but once we get permanent residence there it will carry over and we'll be able to move back here anyway".

Six months later and so much for that.

Then a few months after that the US election happens.


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## Bentaycanada

I'm British, but after I moved to Canada 5 years back, I've mainly left British politic behind. Luckily Canadian politics is even more boring than ours. They spend most of their time looking South for entertainment.


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## Drew

hairychris said:


> GT is a monster. Always has been, but inconsistent on the TdF previously. He's still riding for Froome, although the longer he stays in yellow the more difficult the internal politics in the Sky team.


By the way, bumping an otherwise stagnant thread to say, holy shit, he actually pulled it off!  What an epic performance on his part, though as a bit of a Sagan fanboi watching him limp across the line on Stage 19 was pretty gutsy, too.


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## Nick

Bumping to laugh at the hilarious immigration policy they are proposing.

'Highly skilled workers will be prioritised' 

so all the gammon munching, tweed wearing c***s that voted for this will still have plenty to moan about seeing a lot of IT professionals, to name 1 out of an array of professions, tend to come from Asian countries. 

If you ignore the fact we are absolutely fu***d it will be quite funny to laugh at brexiters in 10 years time when they are paying more tax and surrounded by more brown people.


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## Drew

Nick said:


> Bumping to laugh at the hilarious immigration policy they are proposing.
> 
> 'Highly skilled workers will be prioritised'
> 
> so all the gammon munching, tweed wearing c***s that voted for this will still have plenty to moan about seeing a lot of IT professionals, to name 1 out of an array of professions, tend to come from Asian countries.
> 
> If you ignore the fact we are absolutely fu***d it will be quite funny to laugh at brexiters in 10 years time when they are paying more tax and surrounded by more brown people.


I mean, it's almost like the whole premise behind Brexit was a stupid, nonsensical farce from day 1!


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## _MonSTeR_

Nick said:


> If you ignore the fact we are absolutely fu***d it will be quite funny to laugh at brexiters in 10 years time when they are paying more tax and surrounded by more brown people.



And the worst thing is, that if the demographic analysis is to be believed (and I think it is) that in 10 years, because many of the people who voted to "leave" were much older they'll not be around to witness the sh!t they've left for the younger generations who voted "remain"...


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## Nick

_MonSTeR_ said:


> And the worst thing is, that if the demographic analysis is to be believed (and I think it is) that in 10 years, because many of the people who voted to "leave" were much older they'll not be around to witness the sh!t they've left for the younger generations who voted "remain"...



Annoyingly this is 100% correct.

Seeing I'm having a moan, I may as well add I remember there being quite a few people on this board in favour of brexit before the vote , well where the fu** are they now?! Seems to be going swimmingly ehh?

I wonder if they've maybe realised they are getting shafted after their first post brexit trip outside the UK where you are pretty much getting 1:1 on gbp/eur and the $ isn't much better.

You can even feel it on guitar gear, prs is up about 15% post brexit, mayones up 10% suhr up 15% mesa gear is just outrageously expensive now.


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## Nick

On top of this 'Baw johs' seems to be atrempting to fracture the conservative party so he can start his own new setup which I can only imagine will be like something out of fu***ng v for vendetta.


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## Drew

Nick said:


> I wonder if they've maybe realised they are getting shafted after their first post brexit trip outside the UK where you are pretty much getting 1:1 on gbp/eur and the $ isn't much better.
> 
> You can even feel it on guitar gear, prs is up about 15% post brexit, mayones up 10% suhr up 15% mesa gear is just outrageously expensive now.


Yeah, I mean, the pound got _hosed_ post Brexit.


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## Nick

Drew said:


> Yeah, I mean, the pound got _hosed_ post Brexit.



Absolutely pumped.

I just got back from Dublin and fair enough it's might not be the cheapest place in the euro but it was fucking brutal even when compared to about 2 or 3 years ago.

I'm looking at a us holiday next year and it's going to be seriously pricey when I used to be able to live in relative luxury over there. first world problems for sure but I'm sure the brexiters will be feeling it also and probably equally unhappy about it


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## Drew

I should come visit you limey fuckers across the Atlantic - it's actually not that expensive anymore these days, and the cycling looks great. 

Of course, now's a tough time to exit and re-enter the States...


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## Nick

Drew said:


> I should come visit you limey fuckers across the Atlantic - it's actually not that expensive anymore these days, and the cycling looks great.
> 
> Of course, now's a tough time to exit and re-enter the States...



Yeah I think they just held the downhill mountain biking championships not far from where I live. funnily enough my s&c coach from basketball works with Mike and Tracey Hannah who I believe are both world ranked.


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## narad

Drew said:


> Yeah, I mean, the pound got _hosed_ post Brexit.



I had just moved to London 3 months earlier. Basically worked pro-bono for 2.5 years. Though it did have the effect of getting me out of the country, so plus one for the anti-immigration people.


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## StevenC

narad said:


> I had just moved to London 3 months earlier. Basically worked pro-bono for 2.5 years. Though it did have the effect of getting me out of the country, so plus one for the anti-immigration people.


But aren't you one of those skilled non eastern European, non brown people?


----------



## StevenC

That's the softest least Brexit-y Brexit imaginable, right? Two more years where we're in the EU without any say while we negotiate another deal, after which time we can extend the transition period. And all we get is fishing?

Well done Brexit


----------



## Andromalia

Well, the UK governement got two years to say what kind of link they wanted to the EU, with 6 or so possiblities offered (norway style, switzerland style etc). Brits didn't pick any and continued to clamor for bespoke stuff that would give them an advantage over the EU. What you are getting now is the result of this.

I'm very fond of Brits, I work with Brits every day, but to the British governments: good riddance. We have been wondering for decades how to get rid ow Washington's trojan horse and you gave us the opportunity. I can pretty much guarantee you won't make it back in next time you try. 
I feel sorry for the people that the UK government are taking down with them but I don't see any better alternative.


----------



## ImNotAhab

I have nothing to add besides Frankie Boyle's depressingly apt description of Borris Johnson, "a cross between an unmade bed and a head injury".


----------



## Drew

ImNotAhab said:


> I have nothing to add besides Frankie Boyle's depressingly apt description of Borris Johnson, "a cross between an unmade bed and a head injury".


I take back my earlier comments. There are only _two_ things the British Empire has contributed to society of any value; the gin and tonic, and a knack for pithy aphorisms.


----------



## narad

Drew said:


> I take back my earlier comments. There are only _two_ things the British Empire has contributed to society of any value; the gin and tonic, and a knack for pithy aphorisms.



Silly walks? Chicken Tikka masala?


----------



## Drew

narad said:


> Silly walks? Chicken Tikka masala?


"Chicken without sauce, in sauce?" Pass. My go to order is saag anyway.


----------



## r33per

Well, it's been a fun week - and it's only Wednesday!

Something straight out of Python to cheer us up:


----------



## ImNotAhab

This is from an Irish Simpsons Meme page and it unfortunately sums up the state of current British politics.


----------



## Drew

Was really hoping May would lose that, to be honest, and whoever replaced her would have the good sense to call a fresh referendum.


----------



## Drew

So, May's Brexit plan just died a fiery death.


----------



## StevenC

Good. Now we can get back to the important things, like deciding on a leader 2 months before a constitutional crisis.


----------



## Ralyks

So it's Brexit basically finished at this point?


----------



## narad

Ah, I wanted the pound to stay low for forever.


----------



## Drew

Ralyks said:


> So it's Brexit basically finished at this point?


I don't think anyone knows at this point. 

May and Parliament have ruled out a "no deal" exit, and May's negotiated plan is now dead, too. She's ruling out a second referendum, but it's awfully hard to see what sort of room is left for negotiation to make a deal more palatable to the UK, or what sort of concessions the EU is going to be willing to make that they haven't already made or ruled out. 

She's said, prompting comparisons to Churchill's quip on Americans, that they'll always do the right thing, but only after they've tried everything else, that she'll work with opposition groups to draft her next deal, but I think the probability is a little higher than it was that either she gives in and puts the final plan to a referendum where they either remain or take that deal, or Parliament unilaterally acts to overturn their declaration of Article 50 when they're only weeks to days from a deadline with no deal in sight. 

That said... Yeah, the whole thing falling apart and spiraling into a no deal exit because the government can't get their shit together is definitely as possibility.


----------



## thedonal

What a real sh*t show. Total C*nts in power and a bumbling, misfiring opposition.

I knew the no confidence vote would fail but I'm still gutted about it. If Jeremy Corbyn knew how to play the game a bit- while retaining his moral compass- things might have changed some time ago.

We've got a system that is truly broken and represents the British People in no way whatsoever.


----------



## Andromalia

Well, the impression I got was, nobody wanted the vote to pass because nobody wants May's seat at this point in time.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Well, the impression I got was, nobody wanted the vote to pass because nobody wants May's seat at this point in time.


 

So, non-Brit here... But from the outside I _really_ don't see a path forward where the UK can actually hope to negotiate a better-enough deal with the EU before the end of March that will have enough votes to pass in Parliament. And, with a no-deal Brexit now blocked.... 

I mean, it seems like this is going to have to end with the UK eventually realizing they have a shitty negotiating position, can't pass a deal, and cobbling together the least-awful Brexit deal they can negotiate and then sending it to a second referendum, except this time instead of "should we stay or should we go" it'll be "should we accept this specific Brexit deal, or should we reverse course and remain in the EU," and once the voting public actually has to consider specific terms rather than an idealized pie-in-the-sky deal, the Brexiters will get voted down, and the UK will remain a full EU member state.

Anyone in the UK want to weigh in - is there something I'm missing?


----------



## Chiba666

Does seem that way and I hope so. I'm due to move back to the UK his year when my Government job ends and they send me back but I'm doing what I can not to go back to avoid the shit storm thats approaching. Lets put it this way I'm currently in the med and am pretty much considering going down to the bottom of the world


----------



## zappatton2

Chiba666 said:


> Does seem that way and I hope so. I'm due to move back to the UK his year when my Government job ends and they send me back but I'm doing what I can not to go back to avoid the shit storm thats approaching. Lets put it this way I'm currently in the med and am pretty much considering going down to the bottom of the world


I've heard it said that New Zealand's a good place to be, post-apocalypse.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Drew said:


> Anyone in the UK want to weigh in - is there something I'm missing?



You're missing the overarching stupidity of the British general public! If we're lucky enough to get a second chance at a vote, there'll be enough old folks who haven't anything better to do than turn out to vote in droves and harp on about the "good old days" when Britain ruled the world, combined with a large contingent of benefit scrounging scumbags who think Polish people are"stealing their jobs" when they themselves haven't worked a day in years if at all, meanwhile the younger, better educated folks who understand the importance of the EU and who will have to deal with the next 20 years of utter crap will be screwed over by folks who will be dead by the time the effects of their decision really bite or who are too stupid to know what they've actually done.

Apparently if the reported demographic of the last vote is extrapolated into today's terms though, the UK "should" vote remain if the vote is held today, simply because more young people have come of age and are now eligible to vote and are likely to vote remain, whereas enough old folks, statistically more likely to vote leave, have now died... I just think that leavers will turn out with their dying wish and too many remainers will leave it to someone else to save all our asses...

Not that I'm biased in favour of staying in the EU or anything


----------



## thraxil

I'm afraid that even if they manage to have a second referendum that it will have the same fundamental problem as the first. Basically, that it was asking the people if they wanted to leave the EU but didn't actually lay out a realistic plan. It would've been fine if it had been treated more like a poll and MPs then allocated resources to come up with a realistic plan for Brexit, but instead it was considered binding. It's like there was a vote that we're all going to be healthier. Most people would say, "yes, I'd like to be healthier, of course". But then you present them with a plan for getting there and they say "wait a minute, I don't want to exercise or eat better, I just want to be healthier". Actually, it was probably even dumber than that. More like voting that we're all going to be healthier AND we're going to have ice cream for every meal. It was a stupid meaningless vote. If there's a second referendum, it needs to be be on a specific negotiated plan that includes a legal solution to the Irish border.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

thraxil said:


> Actually, it was probably even dumber than that. More like voting that we're all going to be healthier AND we're going to have ice cream for every meal. It was a stupid meaningless vote. If there's a second referendum, it needs to be be on a specific negotiated plan that includes a legal solution to the Irish border.



100% this!!!

And some folks actually thought that they *would *be healthier and they *could *have ice cream for every meal. Personally, I'm still waiting for the £350 Million a week for the NHS. Maybe Boris and Nigel could chip in 175 million a week each? I'm not sure where that little promise ran off to?

and the Irish border debacle. Just, "wow"!


----------



## Xaios

zappatton2 said:


> I've heard it said that New Zealand's a good place to be, post-apocalypse.


I also read that book in high school.


----------



## Chiba666

zappatton2 said:


> I've heard it said that New Zealand's a good place to be, post-apocalypse.


That would be alot more populous than the disputed rock I may move to


----------



## Drew

thraxil said:


> I'm afraid that even if they manage to have a second referendum that it will have the same fundamental problem as the first. Basically, that it was asking the people if they wanted to leave the EU but didn't actually lay out a realistic plan.


That's why I've been saying I think a second referendum has to be a choice between leaving with the best plan the EU will accept, and remaining. Brexiters managed to sell Brexit as all of the benefits of leaving the EU (not paying in, being able to unilaterally set immigration policy, that's about it, really), with none of the costs.


----------



## r33per

From BBC live feed today:

"ERG will not back Theresa May's deal"

Well, depending on your view, the 8, 9 and 10-stringers amongst us have made their views known...


----------



## Drew

More to the point, is that a chrome boy in your avatar?


----------



## Chiba666

So another vote gone down the river, need to stay out of the UK for a few years more.


----------



## Drew

Well, this will be interesting.  More likely than not we see an extenstion rather than a hard exit, and it's possible this could spur a second referendum, but... Uncharted territory.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Remember folks, lets give £350 million a week to the NHS!!!! Uncle Boris says so!


----------



## r33per

Drew said:


> More to the point, is that a chrome boy in your avatar?


Yes! #498


----------



## r33per

So we've looked at the takeaway menu and decided (for the second time) we don't want the special chow mein. We'll vote tonight to decide if we definitely want something and - assuming we do - we'll then vote to ask if the local Chinese takeaway can stay open an extra hour or two.


----------



## vilk

I saw this and I thought it was funny


----------



## thedonal

Well. It clearly shows now that we have a Govt that couldn't negotiate its way through a crowded pub.

I think I'm going to vote to stop looking at political stuff (and probably just "The News"). Better to focus on what makes one happier and more enlightened..


----------



## Drew

So, where does Brexit go from here? May is holding a third vote on Tuesday, I guess, for her deal, but I don't see how suddenly a bill that failed by more than 150 votes is going to pass. The EU will probably give the UK an extension, but only if it looks like something meaningful will come of it, and I'm not sure what that might be. 

I'm a little dumbfounded that a second referendum, or even a referendum between May's Brexit and remaining, hasn't gotten serious consideration, because right now it looks to me like you don't HAVE a Brexit deal that'll be acceptable to the EU, but can pass in the UK.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Frankly, I think given the chaos that is our "government", all options are open from withdrawing our declaration of Article 50, to withdrawing from the EU without a deal. Don't forget the brexiteers will tell you that a second referendum doesn't carry out the "will of the people". 

I too don't see the current deal getting through parliament, so I think it's "crash out" or "beg for an extension".


----------



## Drew

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I too don't see the current deal getting through parliament, so I think it's "crash out" or "beg for an extension".


But what do you do with that extension? I don't think May can get a much better Brexit deal from the EU, so either Parliament is going to A. have to do an about face and realize this is the best they can get, and vote for it (not impossible, but this seems to pragmatic for politicians), or B. at the end of the extension the best possible deal will be no closer to passing and you'll get a hard exit, or C. Parliament will have to admit that they've been sold a bill of goods and there's no deal that will let the UK leave the EU that will be acceptable at home, and they'll have to somehow vote to stay, after all. 

Of the three options, a hard exit seems the most plausible, since A and C involve Parliament not being a bunch of fucking idiots.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I agree, hard exit is just plain dumb, and probably the most likely. 

Hard exit followed by PMs resignation and/or general election is my bet.

What I’d like to see is an admission by the government that they can’t deliver ‘what people voted for’ and revocation of the Art. 50 declaration. Assuming it can be unilaterally revoked...?


----------



## Drew

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Assuming it can be unilaterally revoked...?


Going out on a limb... The EU won't stop them. A hard Brexit is worse than a soft Brexit, but any Brexit at all hurts the EU, even if in ways that are minor compared to the UK, and the EU will let them remain if they have any say in it. The real risk would be if a pro-Brexit resident challenged the move in the courts, and the courts determined that they couldn't. Even then that would likely be messy but not a dealbreaker, unless somehow Article 50 was irrevocable.


----------



## ImNotAhab

God damn, the third vote on the exit deal seems like it is not going to happen. Which way is this cluster going to go?


----------



## Drew

Sounds like May may be opening the door to a second referendum or a parliamentary vote on revoking their prior Article 50 declaration?


----------



## astrocreep

All so crazy and depressing.


----------



## 777timesgod

I am not a Brit or a supporter of the Brexit or Bremain camps. However, it does show the bias of the EU towards a stronger country (than say Greece during the Grexit possibility or my own). If we tried something like this we would be buried alive, after being politically skewered from every member. All of our leaders are talking out of the side of their mouth on the matter.
Britain has been scheming and manipulating from the inside of the EU ever since it entered (out of necessity as it was left out and was no longer a colonial force + the U.S.A. needed their most loyal ally inside) and now that they are on the way out, they get extensions and negotiations... Not to mention that the British pound is still stronger than the Euro, despite all of this mess! 1 to 1.15 of the Euro, after so many organizations/businesses left for Frankfurt and Paris, seriously? 
This should calm some of the British people here, your country is too strong and has a massive position in global politics to collapse. Not to mention its alliances outside the EU, which will chip in as soon as you are out. Yes, your position will suffer and the economy will take a hit but then again you get to do what you want. I do not know if the positives will be more than the negatives or vice-versa, we need to see where the negotiation will lead.
I think Cameron wanted the UK to exit, the upper echelons of your leaders (right and left leaning) realised that they are playing third fiddle to Germany and France within the EU. As the EU extents its control over the members, the UK had a choice to be absorbed/change or protest/leave.
Eventually they could not deal with it, which is understandable if you consider that the UK was an empire in the beginning of the last century and now is supposed to be a member of a Union of countries. If you think that only leaders such as Putin and Erdogan dream of empire like countries, look a little closer to home. 
Just my 2 cents, I study politics everyday but I never posted something and thought why not. Let me know your opinions, thanks.


----------



## Demiurge

^Interesting point since it seems that one of the narratives is that anyone trying to leave the EU will made an example. At the same time, the consequences are severe because they don't want anyone to leave. There's perhaps the fine line that it being walked with Britain where, being a bigger member, they're going to get as many chances to change their mind but still in-line for a walloping if they don't.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Well, now we know what MPs don’t want... no idea what they’re prepared to agree they do want...


----------



## Drew

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Well, now we know what MPs don’t want... no idea what they’re prepared to agree they do want...


It's looking more like May might get her deal approved on the 3rd try. Her opponents evidently were starting to realize that they were approaching a point where either they voted for _her_ bill, or there was going to be no Brexit. Then she made her commitment to step down once Brexit occurred, which was another strong enticement for her opponents. Whether that's enough to get her over the line...


----------



## 777timesgod

Demiurge said:


> ^Interesting point since it seems that one of the narratives is that anyone trying to leave the EU will made an example. At the same time, the consequences are severe because they don't want anyone to leave. There's perhaps the fine line that it being walked with Britain where, being a bigger member, they're going to get as many chances to change their mind but still in-line for a walloping if they don't.



The consensus for Greece was "Just leave, we do not care", which was particularly insulting, given what that country has been through and its location next to countries not exactly known for being democratic (not talking about Italy but Salvini is taking them towards a hard-line side) but still having ties with the hypocritical EU commission (nobody cares about the parliament which gives decisions on the smaller matters, the big ones are handled by the real people in charge). This was detrimental on several aspects of running a country and while Greeks have made a million mistakes, they had a rough selection of cards given to them.

England will be punished for leaving the EU but it is clear that a relationship is still wanted. The phrase "too big to fail" comes to mind. Pressure by the US is ongoing but Germany/France/Brussels want to show some grit before settling.

The immigration argument by the Tories is laughable on one side, Greece's record is 1.5 million immigrants in a year but only the official number, the real one may be two or more, from 2015. In my own country, we hold the European record for immigration arrivals/asylum requests to population (we are a small country, which is also occupied so take that into a account) being close to Syria. We were given 30 million Euro by the EU for the decade and told to hang in there.
On the other side, they are not 100% wrong as the terrorist attacks by Islamic lone wolves has gone up and also the pressure of the lower and middle classes by the job market being saturated in some sectors and unemployment rising. No side in the Brexit/Bremain argument is entirely wrong or entirely right as there are so many factors.

The EU is definitely going to a dark place, not just by the rise of the far right but also the utter disregard of the capitalist right and the socialist left for the citizens' concerns over many matters. They still have their bureaucratic lackeys write articles in the media telling us how great they are and refuse to acknowledge that they fucked up big time on some many matters. There is outrage which must be dealt with but no real leaders in our era. Shame, as the EU had potential before it was overrun by pompous people who needed titles and positions.


----------



## ImNotAhab

Third smackdown in a row for the leave deal...

I will let the Irish Simpson Memes page sum it up:


----------



## Demiurge

What, so May's offer to resign wasn't enough to sweeten the deal?


----------



## Drew

So it seems.  

So.... Hard Brexit, or revoke Article 50? I'm hoping for the latter, but I have no clue here.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I’m hoping for revoke Article
50 as well or at least a couple of years postponement and another referendum. Hopefully that’ll give the government time to work out how to leave and bt then enough coffin dodging right wing extremists will have expired so that we can have a remain verdict.


----------



## StevenC

Excellent! 6 months of peace and quiet before two weeks of crisis.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47889404


----------



## Drew

Hey, this increases the odds you guys stick around in the EU. I'm cool with that. 

May's recent thing about maybe making progress with Labour on a single customs union is sort of dumbfounding - a duty-free free trade customs union with the EU, but keeping the UK's sovereignty to make their own trade deals on their own terms? That's contradictory.


----------



## 777timesgod

StevenC said:


> Excellent! 6 months of peace and quiet before two weeks of crisis. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47889404



6 months of peace... No way, get ready for even more mayhem in the English parliament. Already the Brexit wing of the Tories is furious over the extension. Basically, it pushes Brexit half a year away and with it the resignation that May proposed.



Drew said:


> Hey, this increases the odds you guys stick around in the EU. I'm cool with that.
> 
> May's recent thing about maybe making progress with Labour on a single customs union is sort of dumbfounding - a duty-free free trade customs union with the EU, but keeping the UK's sovereignty to make their own trade deals on their own terms? That's contradictory.



Not dumbfounding at all, its basic UK policy and they have been following it since joining the EU in 1973 (despite Charles De Gaulle trying to stop it twice before). Accept all the positives of EU and decline any responsibilities or undermine any policy that the EU parliament tries to push, which does not serve 100% the UK interests. Unethical, yes but this is how serious countries do business.
Interestingly, there was a referendum in 1975 on whether they should stay in the EEC (European Economic Community - does not exist today) and they voted in favor of staying.


----------



## Ralyks

Sooooo is Brexit still a thing now that Theresa May resigned?


----------



## possumkiller

Yeah what's the deal? Is brexit all done or what?


----------



## StevenC

Not yet. May was a remainder to begin with and she was just heading her party through the Brexit process. So now there will be a new Tory leader who will become PM and they'll either continue with Brexit or not. They most likely will continue with it, at least until it becomes abundantly clear that there won't be a better deal than what May had. A lot of Brexiteers believe that May mishandled negotiations and that's why she got such a "bad" deal. Nothing to do with it being a stupid idea to begin with.


----------



## possumkiller

Torries are the republicans of the UK right?


----------



## StevenC

possumkiller said:


> Torries are the republicans of the UK right?


They're more like your Dems, but they want to privatise everything. But yeah, they're our "right wing" party.


----------



## possumkiller

StevenC said:


> They're more like your Dems, but they want to privatise everything. But yeah, they're our "right wing" party.


Yeah I thought they were the right wing conservatives. At least that's what the vicar of Dibley led me to believe...


----------



## StevenC

possumkiller said:


> Yeah I thought they were the right wing conservatives. At least that's what the vicar of Dibley led me to believe...


Their real name is Conservatives, but compared to Republicans they're really more like centrists. But as conservatives, they're really only about that fiscal conservatism. Small government, privatization, yadda yadda. But the UK doesn't really have an equivalent of Republicans with regards social conservatism. Tories passed gay marriage, as an example. I suppose you've got the likes of UKIP and BNP, but those are fringe outfits at best.


----------



## possumkiller

That just seems strange.


----------



## BlackSG91

StevenC said:


> Their real name is Conservatives, but compared to Republicans they're really more like centrists. But as conservatives, they're really only about that fiscal conservatism. Small government, privatization, yadda yadda. But the UK doesn't really have an equivalent of Republicans with regards social conservatism. *Tories passed gay marriage*, as an example. I suppose you've got the likes of UKIP and BNP, but those are fringe outfits at best.








;>)/


----------



## BlackSG91

EDIT:


----------



## StevenC

possumkiller said:


> That just seems strange.


The DUP are a good example of very socially conservative. They're currently propping up the Tories in government, but are also the biggest party in Northern Ireland's government. Which has been suspended for over 2 years now due to DUP corruption and policy disputes over the Irish language. 

The DUP don't want anyone to have rights. For example, when the assembly was suspended there was a fear among regressive types, that with the UK government stepping in, we would finally see gay marriage and abortion legalised in NI. But then May called a general election, lost seats and had to rely on medieval Ulstermen. Which put a stop to that.

Oh, another good thing is that with May gone that probably means Karen Bradley is out as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> Not yet. May was a remainder to begin with and she was just heading her party through the Brexit process. So now there will be a new Tory leader who will become PM and they'll either continue with Brexit or not. They most likely will continue with it, at least until it becomes abundantly clear that there won't be a better deal than what May had. A lot of Brexiteers believe that May mishandled negotiations and that's why she got such a "bad" deal. Nothing to do with it being a stupid idea to begin with.


So, someone who gets British politics more than I do, with you being a prime contender... 

As I understand, due to recent changes in how PMs are elected/can rule, with May stepping down as both PM and head of the Tories, the next PM will be whoever the Tories elect to lead the party after May, right? And with Tories supporting a hard Brexit at a rate of something like 2-1 (in a nation where the voting public wants to remain something like 3-2 based on current polling) the next PM is extremely likely to be an Euroskeptic who favors a hard no-deal brexit, right? 

What happens next? I know May was safe from a vote of no confidence for either one or two years after the last one failed - is that true of the Conservative/Tory party as a _WHOLE_, or only May herself? How long is the next PM guaranteed to remain in power? What does this mean for Brexit/revoking Article 50? 

To me, from my armchair across the Atlantic, this looks mostly like it's going to make the Brexit negotiations _worse_ - we'll replace May with more of a partisan hardliner, while the EU is not likely to offer more generous terms than they already have. It's hard to look at this and feel like the odds of a no-deal Brexit haven't raised substantially, at least as long as it ins't possible we'll have a new parliamentary election or government before the October deadline.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> So, someone who gets British politics more than I do, with you being a prime contender...
> 
> As I understand, due to recent changes in how PMs are elected/can rule, with May stepping down as both PM and head of the Tories, the next PM will be whoever the Tories elect to lead the party after May, right? And with Tories supporting a hard Brexit at a rate of something like 2-1 (in a nation where the voting public wants to remain something like 3-2 based on current polling) the next PM is extremely likely to be an Euroskeptic who favors a hard no-deal brexit, right?
> 
> What happens next? I know May was safe from a vote of no confidence for either one or two years after the last one failed - is that true of the Conservative/Tory party as a _WHOLE_, or only May herself? How long is the next PM guaranteed to remain in power? What does this mean for Brexit/revoking Article 50?
> 
> To me, from my armchair across the Atlantic, this looks mostly like it's going to make the Brexit negotiations _worse_ - we'll replace May with more of a partisan hardliner, while the EU is not likely to offer more generous terms than they already have. It's hard to look at this and feel like the odds of a no-deal Brexit haven't raised substantially, at least as long as it ins't possible we'll have a new parliamentary election or government before the October deadline.


Yeah, the UK being a parliament we vote for our local MPs in the party with the most MPs tries to form a government. May stepped down as PM/party leader, but didn't dissolve the government. So the new PM will be the new Tory leader. Yeah, basically all the candidates are hard-line Brexiteers.

The vote of no confidence she survived was within the party and keeps her job safe for a year, which doesn't matter now. So there could be another within the party as soon as the new PM is chosen. Corbyn had tabled a vote of no confidence on the government in parliament, which didn't get debated (McConnell style).

What happens next is the Tories pick their new leader who will be the new PM. The last general election was 2017, so that's good for 5 years until 2022, unless another election is called by the government like May did in 2017. There is a chance they do this because at the minute the DUP is propping them up, which isn't a happy relationship. 

The main takeaway is that it's now guaranteed to be either a no deal or no Brexit situation. The new guys will quickly figure out there isn't a good deal to be had and that'll likely cement a no deal as their only option. On the other hand Labour has finally started pushing for a second referendum, so I think between that and the SNP we will get one. The question likely being no deal or remain. 

I think that's the general feeling in the countries. There's a good chance of another extension for that second referendum.

Scotland is pretty pissed off because they voted to remain in the UK based on the idea of remaining in the EU and now they're being dragged out. Northern Ireland is in a very precarious situation too, with one of our parties supporting the Tories and Brexit while we voted to remain, and all the talk of borders. 

A key aside in the NI thing being that there was a referendum in the 20s for an Irish republic, which went for. But the reason there is a partition is because loyalists in the north threatened to take up arms against the crown if they were no longer in the union. Now the descendants of those militants are suddenly all for the authority of referenda.


----------



## Ralyks

You poor bastards have Trump trying to Stick his nose into negotiations now...


----------



## jaxadam

Ralyks said:


> You poor bastards have Trump trying to Stick his nose into negotiations now...



MEGA


----------



## ImNotAhab

Prime Minister Boris Johnson on the horizon... Lord have mercy.


----------



## r33per

About 15 years ago a colleague and I thought the idea of a Boris For President t-shirt was hilarious.

Not so sure now.


----------



## Andromalia

> This should calm some of the British people here, your country is too strong and has a massive position in global politics to collapse. Not to mention its alliances outside the EU, which will chip in as soon as you are out



Yeah, they're chipping in to force you to lower food standards and accept american javel chicken etc.

The date report the UK got was probably the last, lots of european politicans are getting pissed we're still at the same point we were 2 years ago. It's a typical "England-being-assholes and slowing everything to a crawl" way of handling EU politics that make people very happy the UK made a mistake and voted for leave.


----------



## ImNotAhab

And there we have it, you can peddle lies all your adult life, let the dumbest xenophobic crap just fall from your mouth, not perform terribly well in any role you engaged in and STILL make it the top...





(... As long as your Dad was rich and you miss the the "glory days" of a bygone empire but still leave a candle burning by keeping the caste system relevant.)


----------



## thraxil

Can Spitting Image please be rebooted now? Boris is already a muppet. It needs to be done.


----------



## StevenC

Oh here we go...

Why can't the world go back to boring politicians and boring politics?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Ha! You guys get a dipshit now too!


----------



## Drew

UK: Brexit. 
US: Hold my beer. 
UK: Leeeeroy Jenkins! 

I mean, this was widely expected, and it's worth remembering that since Johnson was chosen by registered Tories an _incredibly_ small portion of the UK population just chose the man who's now a shoe-in to be the next PM. As a Brexit hardliner this does increase the liklihood of a hard Brexit... but it's also hard to see ANY room for negotiation with the EU, he likely doesn't have broad support outside his party, and while this points to major risks for the UK-EU relationship and the UK economy, it also points to major risks for the government Johnson is about to form, and his government very well may implode before the Article 50 negotiations come to a close. In which case.... ???


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Boris is a circus clown but has some great tricks up his sleeve.

His first trick is going to be making the British economy disappear...

His second trick is going to be to saw the U.K. in half...


----------



## USMarine75

On a side note I'll be in London for 3 days... any good music stores worth checking out if I can find 5 spare minutes in-between tours my wife has booked?

I was at least hoping to try/buy some BKP Supermassives and stuff them in my luggage. 

Also want to check out Gray Guitars does anyone stock them?

Sorry to interrupt lol...


----------



## thraxil

USMarine75 said:


> On a side note I'll be in London for 3 days... any good music stores worth checking out if I can find 5 spare minutes in-between tours my wife has booked?



Take a stroll down Denmark Street. The shops there lean more towards overpriced "vintage" stuff, but have a lot of history.


----------



## USMarine75

thraxil said:


> Take a stroll down Denmark Street. The shops there lean more towards overpriced "vintage" stuff, but have a lot of history.



Cool... thanks! I don't need to see any MIC Epiphones... we have a place called Guitar Centre in the US for that lol.


----------



## r33per

Yeah. New PM tomorrow.

British yard sale, Thursday. Everything Must Go!


----------



## USMarine75

When are you getting off of the euro standard and going back to that weird L with a line through it money thing?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

USMarine75 said:


> When are you getting off of the euro standard and going back to that weird L with a line through it money thing?



Just ouch. No, not your comment, my bank balance when I look at it converted to euros!  hell I also r ember 200 odd Yen to the Pound 15 years ago when I first started travelling to Japan for work... 

I’m not aware of any stockists, but I know Gray Guitars will let you drop into the workshop if you book an appointment. It’s not exactly central London, but it’s probably worth contacting the guy directly to see if he has stockists anywhere in the city center.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Any love for the Captain and Chappers shop? Wrong city?


----------



## USMarine75

Oh yeah forgot all about! I'll def have to stop by there. Is That Pedal Shows studio open to visitors?


----------



## USMarine75

Ah dammit they're an hour away from where we're staying and they're only open until 6pm. 

Are the UK breaking and entering laws strict? Asking for a friend.


----------



## possumkiller

So this Boris Johnston guy is the new king of United Kingston? Is he the British Trump or something?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

possumkiller said:


> So this Boris Johnston guy is the new king of United Kingston? Is he the British Trump or something?



Definitely have the same barber.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

possumkiller said:


> So this Boris Johnston guy is the new king of United Kingston? Is he the British Trump or something?



Yes, yes he is the duly elected king of the United Kingston! He’s going to divide, undermine and destabilise this great country and sell millions of copies of his memoirs when he writes them.

They say he’ll quite possibly be the last Prime Minister of the ‘United Kingdom’ as his ‘reign’ could see both Scotland and Northern Ireland leaving the U.K.!!! Leaving England and Wales to die off in isolation.

I’m hoping the next generation sees a way for us to rejoin the EU, adopt the Euro and realise Britain’s great past has passed and we need to look forwards now, not backwards like the Brexit generation seem to be doing


----------



## possumkiller

Nah. Backward thinking is the new forward thinking!


----------



## tedtan

possumkiller said:


> Nah. Backward thinking is the new forward thinking!



They only think its forward thinking because they've shoved their heads far, far up their own backsides.


----------



## USMarine75

Boris gets elected and UK sees record breaking heat (102 deg). Coincidence? I'll let you decide.


----------



## StevenC

USMarine75 said:


> Boris gets elected and UK sees record breaking heat (102 deg). Coincidence? I'll let you decide.


Boris has always been the definition of hot and bothered


----------



## USMarine75

So who from SSO was playing touchstyle on what looked like a 10-string in the tube? 

I hated not being able to drop a tip but I only had foreign currency on me at the time and I was in a mad rush.


----------



## StevenC

USMarine75 said:


> So who from SSO was playing touchstyle on what looked like a 10-string in the tube?
> 
> I hated not being able to drop a tip but I only had foreign currency on me at the time and I was in a mad rush.


I saw that guy a few years ago. Jamming Pink Floyd on a Chapman stick. The crazy thing is I saw him in the underground tunnel from South Kensington towards the museums, and then a couple of weeks ago I was on my way to see Tony Levin with King Crimson and found myself walking through that same tunnel.


----------



## USMarine75

StevenC said:


> I saw that guy a few years ago. Jamming Pink Floyd on a Chapman stick. The crazy thing is I saw him in the underground tunnel from South Kensington towards the museums, and then a couple of weeks ago I was on my way to see Tony Levin with King Crimson and found myself walking through that same tunnel.



IIRC this time it was the station where Platform 9 3/4 from the Harry Potter movies is. I actually wanted to stop and listen, but I was with a tour group. But I imagine he does well with the sheer volume of traffic through there.


----------



## Drew

Looks like the markets woke up this morning and realized Johnson = much greater risk of no-deal Brexit.


----------



## possumkiller

Also for any Brits here...

I watch a lot of TV shows from the UK. What is the difference between a tosser and a toss pot?


----------



## StevenC

possumkiller said:


> Also for any Brits here...
> 
> I watch a lot of TV shows from the UK. What is the difference between a tosser and a toss pot?


A tosser asks stupid questions, a toss pot answers them like this.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> A tosser asks stupid questions, a toss pot answers them like this.


I would have guessed a tosser is a wanker, and a toss pot is what the wanker wanks into. Is that more or less right?


----------



## ImNotAhab

The EU and particularly us Irish are getting a lot of bashing from gung-ho Tories over the impending no-deal scenario. Its transparent as hell but its a narrative that will play with hard core, "How dare Dublin somehow shit in our pants!? Outrageous!".


----------



## StevenC

ImNotAhab said:


> The EU and particularly us Irish are getting a lot of bashing from gung-ho Tories over the impending no-deal scenario. Its transparent as hell but its a narrative that will play with hard core, "How dare Dublin somehow shit in our pants!? Outrageous!".


When in reality it was the ancestors of the DUP who shit in all of our pants 100 years ago.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

This...


ImNotAhab said:


> The EU and particularly us Irish are getting a lot of bashing from gung-ho Tories over the impending no-deal scenario. Its transparent as hell but its a narrative that will play with hard core, "How dare Dublin somehow shit in our pants!? Outrageous!".



Is spot on, yet at least 52% of British people will completely agree and be up in arms 

Gove’s cry at the moment of ‘the EU won’t negotiate’ is insane, the U.K. has nothing to negotiate with and Gove’s idiotic remark translates as ‘Brussels won’t give us exactly what we want for nothing in return, it’s all their fault!”

I cannot despise the current government more without asking myself what Guy Fawkes would do about now...


----------



## Vyn

I was holding off posting because I was going say "At least you guys won the first Ashes Test" to cheer you guys up from the misery of having BJ as PM however you went and fucked that one up 

On a serious note, I'm just hoping there's enough left in that chamber that either vote a second referendum in to remain in the EU or just legislate remaining regardless of a referendum. There is no form of leaving the EU whether hard or soft that benefits anyone.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I think the Brexiteers have won. They’ve been so intent on winning that they don’t care what the prize is, just that they win. We’re crashing out with no deal and generations will pay the price. There was a chart showing the education level of Brexit voters compared to their orefer nice to remain. That showed that the better educated you are the more likely you would have been to remain.

That says it all basically. We’re being led off a cliff edge by a bunch of educated idiots, voted for by a bunch of uneducated idiots, and it’s all because people who thought no-one could be _this _stupid gave then a chance to directly decide government policy. There’s a reason we have our electoral system : it’s supposed to protect us from this shit.

Im thinking of starting a ‘Vote Join’ party for the next election!


----------



## thedonal

Why does it feel like we're on the verge of a fascist dictatorship?

PM wanting to close parliament to limit any chances to stop "no deal" Brexit.

And all of this just so very rich people can continue to avoid paying taxes. 

Surely we're going through a period of the most irresponsible government ever- started by David Cameron and continued through 2 prime ministers that were not elected by the public (something Boris Johnson himself much decried when Gordon Brown was brought in). The BBC are helping this all along by very biased reporting.


----------



## Ralyks

Boy, the UK is becoming current day US, isn't it.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

thedonal said:


> Why does it feel like we're on the verge of a fascist dictatorship?



Because we're on the verge of a fascist dictatorship, but remember, King Boris and his Uncle Nigel are going to give £350 million a week to the NHS!



thedonal said:


> Surely we're going through a period of the most irresponsible government ever- started by David Cameron and continued through 2 prime ministers that were not elected by the public (something Boris Johnson himself much decried when Gordon Brown was brought in). The BBC are helping this all along by very biased reporting.



Wholeheartedly agreed! the whole point of the UK political system is for the unwashed masses to elect their MPs who should know better as to what to do with the country. When the idiots get to decide foreign policy directly, we end up voting to leave the EU and a few millionaires stand to make even more money whilst said masses all lose their jobs because the UK is no longer the "Gateway to Europe"... but remember, King Boris and his Uncle Nigel are going to give £350 million a week to the NHS!

I'm half convinced the UK is actually the new Star Wars movie and BoJo is actually Emperor Palpatine. I think this is how he seized power in "Revenge of the Sith"...


----------



## ImNotAhab

Sad but true:


----------



## possumkiller

Hmm... I wonder if Trump will ask the Queen about suspending Congress?


----------



## Drew

So, odds that the opposition wrenches control of Parliament from Johnson tonight? Sounds like they've got a pretty good shot from here.


----------



## StevenC

Ralyks said:


> Boy, the UK is becoming current day US, isn't it.


By the looks of this evening, at least some of our checks and balances still work.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

StevenC said:


> By the looks of this evening, at least some of our checks and balances still work.



Alright, now you're just bragging.


----------



## Drew

MaxOfMetal said:


> Alright, now you're just bragging.


 


StevenC said:


> By the looks of this evening, at least some of our checks and balances still work.


Not 100% sure, but it looks like I posted this a couple minutes _before_ they did it. No more than a few, though. 

That said - one of the economists I follow noted in a piece this morning that, based on what little we know from negotiations during G7, there actually may have been something to Johnson's argument that the threat of the UK actually leaving without a deal was giving him leverage that May - who the EU never believed would chance a no-deal Brexit - never had, and that he seemed to have been making progress getting some concessions out of the EU. That's interesting and all, but at the same time if you believe (as do I) that the whole Brexit process was a mistake in the first place, anything that makes it marginally less likely to happen is a good thing.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

This needed to happen months ago, but with such a small operational window I'm finding it harder and harder to predict the overall outcomes. I'd have said no-deal Brexit is still the most likely eventuality, but I'm secretly hoping for this to drag on long enough for a sufficient number of old, stupid people to die to allow a clear majority for remain to prevail by attrition. Personally I hope Nigel Farage is amongst the first of them...


----------



## Drew

_MonSTeR_ said:


> This needed to happen months ago, but with such a small operational window I'm finding it harder and harder to predict the overall outcomes. I'd have said no-deal Brexit is still the most likely eventuality, but I'm secretly hoping for this to drag on long enough for a sufficient number of old, stupid people to die to allow a clear majority for remain to prevail by attrition. Personally I hope Nigel Farage is amongst the first of them...


Well, you PROBABLY have until January 31st to figure this out, now.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> Not 100% sure, but it looks like I posted this a couple minutes _before_ they did it. No more than a few, though.
> 
> That said - one of the economists I follow noted in a piece this morning that, based on what little we know from negotiations during G7, there actually may have been something to Johnson's argument that the threat of the UK actually leaving without a deal was giving him leverage that May - who the EU never believed would chance a no-deal Brexit - never had, and that he seemed to have been making progress getting some concessions out of the EU. That's interesting and all, but at the same time if you believe (as do I) that the whole Brexit process was a mistake in the first place, anything that makes it marginally less likely to happen is a good thing.


I definitely checked the news after you posted and the vote hadn't happened yet, so you're good.

It looked like May wasn't going to no deal, but Boris would, but I don't think that gave them any more leverage, really. A no deal is worse for the EU than any other form of Breakfast, but the negatives are all still one sided towards the UK.

Hopefully now we get some legislation through for an extension, then get a government in that will finally run a second referendum.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> It looked like May wasn't going to no deal, but Boris would, but I don't think that gave them any more leverage, really. A no deal is worse for the EU than any other form of Breakfast, but the negatives are all still one sided towards the UK.


Yeah, to be perfectly honest I found that argument hard to understand too - a no-deal Brexit would hardly be good for the EU, but would be a lot worse for the UK, which is something at least the EU would have been well aware. And, for that to be used as a threat for leverage effectively, there would need to be some belief that Johnson really WOULD exit without a deal. That's a fair assumption since he'd basically said as much, but if Johnson was really looking to position for a no-deal Brexit, you have to wonder how interested in getting concessions he was. He either was very interested, and the threat of a no-deal Brexit was in turn pretty empty (something the EU would almost certainly have been able to figure out from the negotiations), or he wasn't very interested, in which case he wouldn't have been pushing for any sort of serious concessions in the first place. Idunno. 

A second referendum, ideally with the actual, nailed-down Brexit deal on one side vs Remain on the other, is definitely the best case scenario here (and the only referendum that should ever have been on offer). Here's hoping, but even if you guys come back from the brink, a lot of damage has already been done.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> Yeah, to be perfectly honest I found that argument hard to understand too - a no-deal Brexit would hardly be good for the EU, but would be a lot worse for the UK, which is something at least the EU would have been well aware. And, for that to be used as a threat for leverage effectively, there would need to be some belief that Johnson really WOULD exit without a deal. That's a fair assumption since he'd basically said as much, but if Johnson was really looking to position for a no-deal Brexit, you have to wonder how interested in getting concessions he was. He either was very interested, and the threat of a no-deal Brexit was in turn pretty empty (something the EU would almost certainly have been able to figure out from the negotiations), or he wasn't very interested, in which case he wouldn't have been pushing for any sort of serious concessions in the first place. Idunno.
> 
> A second referendum, ideally with the actual, nailed-down Brexit deal on one side vs Remain on the other, is definitely the best case scenario here (and the only referendum that should ever have been on offer). Here's hoping, but even if you guys come back from the brink, a lot of damage has already been done.


The consensus seems to be that BoJo doesn't really care about anything other than being remembered, and it's better to be remembered as the guy that made Breakfast than not. He, along with a lot of the rest of us, thinks the only way Breakfast will be served is if we crash out without a deal. He never bothered negotiating with Brussels, I don't even know if he's been to Brussels since being PM, and then he tried to muzzle Parliament from stopping no deal.

I fully anticipate, one way or the other, if we get a referendum on "the deal" or stay in, the options will be no deal or stay in. If it's BoJo as PM at that point, there won't be a deal made, and Corbyn will be hopeless too. There seems to be some amount of arrogance among Breakfast Eaters that the EU will give them a favourable deal without any justification as to why they would. They can send as many different people to Brussels as they like and they will keep getting the same result.


----------



## thraxil

StevenC said:


> There seems to be some amount of arrogance among Breakfast Eaters that the EU will give them a favourable deal without any justification as to why they would.



Also a weird confidence that they will be able to make an amazing trade deal with the US that will make up for anything lost with the EU. I don't understand why they think that, but it seems to have something to do with Boris being buddy-buddy with Trump. But I don't think they understand that while PoTUS can add sanctions and tariffs for reasons of national security, a comprehensive US-UK trade agreement isn't created by Donald and Boris sitting down together, jerking each other off, and signing a deal. It has to go through the House and Senate first. And those two institutions in the US are currently broken. Anything that managed to make it through the House won't even be allowed to be voted on in the Senate by McConnell. It could be years before the UK is able to make any kind of new deal with the US.


----------



## JSanta

thraxil said:


> Also a weird confidence that they will be able to make an amazing trade deal with the US that will make up for anything lost with the EU. I don't understand why they think that, but it seems to have something to do with Boris being buddy-buddy with Trump. But I don't think they understand that while PoTUS can add sanctions and tariffs for reasons of national security, a comprehensive US-UK trade agreement isn't created by Donald and Boris sitting down together, jerking each other off, and signing a deal. It has to go through the House and Senate first. And those two institutions in the US are currently broken. Anything that managed to make it through the House won't even be allowed to be voted on in the Senate by McConnell. It could be years before the UK is able to make any kind of new deal with the US.



While I think you make a fair point about the Legislature being "broken" here in the States, I think you're a bit off. McConnell is not going to allow legislation to have a vote in the Senate if he deems it either hurtful to the Republicans, or if he doesn't believe Trump will sign off on it. There's no way to know what Trump would actually do should a bipartisan UK-US trade deal come across his desk; the new NAFTA (USMCA) hasn't received a vote in the Legislature yet, and I'm not sure parallels can be drawn with a UK-US trade deal that doesn't yet exist on paper.


----------



## ImNotAhab

Nancy Pelosi also said her side would block any UK-US trade deal that impacts the Good Friday Agreement. That pesky backstop eh?


----------



## JSanta

ImNotAhab said:


> Nancy Pelosi also said her side would block any UK-US trade deal that impacts the Good Friday Agreement. That pesky backstop eh?



Which (as an outsider), seems like a necessary line in the sand for legislation.


----------



## StevenC

JSanta said:


> Which (as an outsider), seems like a necessary line in the sand for legislation.


The UK and Northern Irish politicians don't seem so fussed on honouring their parts of it, so I'm glad someone is.


----------



## Drew

thraxil said:


> Also a weird confidence that they will be able to make an amazing trade deal with the US that will make up for anything lost with the EU. I don't understand why they think that, but it seems to have something to do with Boris being buddy-buddy with Trump. But I don't think they understand that while PoTUS can add sanctions and tariffs for reasons of national security, a comprehensive US-UK trade agreement isn't created by Donald and Boris sitting down together, jerking each other off, and signing a deal. It has to go through the House and Senate first. And those two institutions in the US are currently broken. Anything that managed to make it through the House won't even be allowed to be voted on in the Senate by McConnell. It could be years before the UK is able to make any kind of new deal with the US.


I'd say the only thing this attitude has going for it is Trump is so desperate to show some sort of a "win" in the trade column to offset the debacle with China, and Johnson is so desperate to have ANY kind of trade agreement after 10/31 or 1/31, that they may actually be able to hammer something out that will bypass enough of each other's non-starters to get SOMETHING done. I'm not so sure I'd go so far as to say it's likely, we have Trump's protectionist tendencies vis a vis American farmers and his desire to get some sort of penetration into NHS for US companies to contend with, but it seems less of a stretch than a meaningful US/China deal does.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> Trump's protectionist tendencies vis a vis American farmers and his desire to get some sort of penetration into NHS for US companies to contend with


Please no


----------



## Andromalia

I'm not really sure a UK-US trade deal is going to be exactly beneficial to the UK, especially on the sanitary side, as the USA will push for swamping the UK with chlorinated chicken and grwsoth hormone beef.
The UK outside of EU are nothing and "trade agreements" will just consolidate the UK's economic fealty to virtually anybody else.

I've been a longtime proponent of Brexit, and I hope we get to it as soon as possible, but the english politicians sure went at it in the most stupid and obnoxious way possible. England is more or less doomed, at least Wales and Scotland can separate and appy to the EU by themselves if they so desire.



> That says it all basically. We’re being led off a cliff edge by a bunch of educated idiots, voted for by a bunch of uneducated idiots



I think labelong politicians "idiots" isn't helping grasp the situation: Boris Johnson got to be nominated Prime Minister, with the afferent privileges and revenues. He's far from being idiot, he's just not working for you but for himself. Same as N.Farage who relocated his assets overseas while advocating for Brexit. These people know perfectly well what they are doing. They're brilliant.
People who voted for them aren't even stupid. They were just brainwashed by Murdock's money, and their lack of analysis can be traced back to the lack of financing of state education. It is a common right wing policy to try to mis-educate the people as strongly as possible: educated people wouldn't believe their lies. It is therefore important for them that the biggest part possible of the lower classes be mis-educated and brainwashed so they can vote for the 1 percenters.

That leads to Boris Johnson, who went to Eton, to get a prime minister post. Working as planned and a brilliant execution. No, they're not stupid. The fact that you believe so just show how well they can fool you.
Having those kind of UK politicians having a say in the EU is a major factor in Brexit support from other countries. Please just leave already.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> I think labelong politicians "idiots" isn't helping grasp the situation: Boris Johnson got to be nominated Prime Minister, with the afferent privileges and revenues. He's far from being idiot, he's just not working for you but for himself. Same as N.Farage who relocated his assets overseas while advocating for Brexit. These people know perfectly well what they are doing. They're brilliant.


Not sure I fully agree.

Johnson became PM not by winning a popular vote, but after May stepped down he won an internal party election that made him by default the next PM. It was an election where not too many people WANTED to win, because the Tories were being split apart by Brexit. Since winning, in rapid order he lost his majority, had his hands tied by a bill preventing him from leaving the EU without a deal on the 31st - which, remember, delivering Brexit come hell or high water on 10/31 was basically his platform, and has now twice lost a vote calling for fresh elections before the next deadline in the Brexit process.

It COULD all be 11th dimensional chess... Or he could simply have been at the wrong place at the wrong time and been the next sacrificial lamb thrust into the whole Brexit apparatus, and actually have been stupid enough to think he could pull it off where everyone else has failed.

Now, with the EU being disinclined to _grant_ an extension if the UK were to ask, god only knows what the next chapter in this sorry saga is going to be. I'm just glad someone _else's_ government is looking incompetent, for a change.

Across the Atlantic, I think there's enough evidence to say conclusively that Trump actually IS stupid, an academic dunce, and woefully lacking any sort of critical self-awareness, but that's neither here nor there. Really, all his presidency shows is it's amazing what the GOP will tolerate if it thinks it can get them a tax cut and a few conservative Supreme Court Justices.


----------



## Andromalia

> had his hands tied by a bill preventing him from leaving the EU without a deal on the 31st



I do have the impression that people have forgotten that he just has to do nothing, and then it will automatically happen, whatever english law says. At this point, leaving the EU on 31st will happen passively.
Another possibility is, if he's somehow forced to ask for an extension... he could then veto it in the EU ministers conference. 
With all said and done, all he has to do is, nothing, claim "oops, sorry, I forgot" and there isn't a damn thing parliament can do about it, provided I understand they don't want elections before the date. The UK has to *ask* for extensions. (Whether one will be granted again is another story, but I'd argue it would as long as Macron agrees to just follow the german auto industry lead, ie, obey to Merkel, which, incidentally, isn't going very well in interior politics )

Trump is, well, something else, and I'd rest my case by arguing he's not, in fact, a politician.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> I do have the impression that people have forgotten that he just has to do nothing, and then it will automatically happen, whatever english law says. At this point, leaving the EU on 31st will happen passively.
> Another possibility is, if he's somehow forced to ask for an extension... he could then veto it in the EU ministers conference.
> With all said and done, all he has to do is, nothing, claim "oops, sorry, I forgot" and there isn't a damn thing parliament can do about it, provided I understand they don't want elections before the date. The UK has to *ask* for extensions. (Whether one will be granted again is another story, but I'd argue it would as long as Macron agrees to just follow the german auto industry lead, ie, obey to Merkel, which, incidentally, isn't going very well in interior politics )
> 
> Trump is, well, something else, and I'd rest my case by arguing he's not, in fact, a politician.


Eh, I still can't say I agree. He's now legally bound to request an extension on 10/18, whether he wants to or not. If the EU isn't inclined to give him one that's one thing, but he can't just "forget" to ask, without making this a full-blown constitutional crisis, and as I understand the House of Commons is voting tonight on provisions that would give them more power to force him to act.

This is a man whose own brother has quit his government, and just today had his first cabinet resignation, first of many I suspect. You say evil genius, but we're talking about a politician whose grasp on power is currently imploding. If somehow he DOES manage to deliver Brexit on 10/31, his government doesn't look likely to survive the process.

Trump is, last I checked, the President of the United States, and as such the most powerful politician in the world, not that I'm happy about that either.

EDIT - I mean, in a nutshell, Johnson's strategy here seems to be to push for a full constitutional crisis that will need to be addressed in the courts, to try to deliver Brexit. If that's the plan of an evil genius, I think even his supporters would have to concede it probably wasn't his first plan, or second plan, or third or even fourth plan, and he's getting pretty desperate looking for a way to get this done.


----------



## Andromalia

Mind you, I'm not saying he's an evil genius, I'm saying he's not stupid. He majored in classical greek of all things. It's not like he *only* inherited money. Of course, not all plans go according to... well, the plan, but I'd wager in his position he's just having a game of Prime Minister at the moment. He's shown before to be umindful of consequences for others. (I mean, Brexit is probably a good thing for the EU on the long run insofar as it rids us of UK politicians and of a US trojan horse, but it's probably a disaster for the UK.)


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> Mind you, I'm not saying he's an evil genius, I'm saying he's not stupid. He majored in classical greek of all things. It's not like he *only* inherited money. Of course, not all plans go according to... well, the plan, but I'd wager in his position he's just having a game of Prime Minister at the moment. He's shown before to be umindful of consequences for others. (I mean, Brexit is probably a good thing for the EU on the long run insofar as it rids us of UK politicians and of a US trojan horse, but it's probably a disaster for the UK.)



As a British citizen I've always felt more European than British which is the problem we have. The educated, younger generations are pro Europe, pro EU and pro EU politics. The "52" are the older, less well educated, right wing xenophobic masses being led by some quite clever, extremely self serving privileged few. Like you said earlier, the masses don't even realise how much they've been fooled.

King Boris, is fairly clever, well educated, and out for himself. He's no need of the money (in fact the role of PM pays less than his journalism) he's doing it because he wants to and because he can, he doesn't even care that he'll go down as the worst PM in history, at least he'll have been PM and if the 100 to 1 shot pays off and Brexit "works", he'll be famous for ever. A few years ago he wrote a document of why we needed to stay in the EU, realised he'd never get to be in charge on that manifesto and threw the document away, from where it was recovered and leaked to the press.

Dealing a lot in international supply chains for a living, my appraisal is that in the short term, Brexit is a bad thing for the 27 and a disaster for the UK. In the long term, Brexit won't matter to the 27 but will still be a disaster for the UK.

If I was the EU I'm not sure whether or not it's in the best interests to refuse an extension, or grant one. Frankly, it's probably best to get rid of Farage and his neo-nazis to be honest. I just hope in a generations' time there's scope for a more enlightened UK to get back to being a part of Europe instead of our shameful MEPs behaving like petulant children and trying to undo 40 years of hard work.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> I do have the impression that people have forgotten that he just has to do nothing, and then it will automatically happen, whatever english law says. At this point, leaving the EU on 31st will happen passively.



This is very true, at the moment, the onus is on the UK opposition to stop Brexit, if nothing is done, the default position is the UK leaves on Halloween. We'd need a new PM and a new pro-EU "remain" government to stop Brexit now. Revoking Article 50 is the only way to "stop" Brexit and I can't see anyone being brave enough to do that and truly defy "the will of the people" even if it's over 3 years old now. Remember, if the same demographic voted in a Brexit referendum today, we'd be "Bremain".


----------



## Andromalia

I'm watching the proceedings live, if Boris Johnson was posting on a forum, he'd be banned for trolling.



> In the long term, Brexit won't matter to the 27 but will still be a disaster for the UK.


I'm not sure. Personal recollection from the action of the UK in the EEC and then EU over 35 years is really negative. UK is all about trying to exploit the system and being the lapdog of Washington. The UK's departure is a good opportunity to get the ball rolling and progress again. (And I'm an internationalist, imagine what it took to lead me to want the UK out)
Also, I want to reaffirm that those feelings are mostly directed to the UK elite class. I have no issue with englishmen other than their food sucks, but I'll forgive that in regard of the pretty decent rock bands they've given us.


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## thraxil

Drew said:


> Eh, I still can't say I agree. He's now legally bound to request an extension on 10/18, whether he wants to or not. If the EU isn't inclined to give him one that's one thing, but he can't just "forget" to ask, without making this a full-blown constitutional crisis



I think the problem is that they've learned that there are just no consequences for acting in bad faith or even illegally as long as you win. Realistically, if the UK crashes out on Oct 31 with no deal, he may have broken the law, but what will happen? It seems to me that the government will have about a million more urgent things to deal with than punishing Boris for not requesting an extension.


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## lewis

i have nothing to add other than making "No deal" Illegal is the dumbest and most pathetic thing I can ever remember happening so far in my lifetime. (re. UK Politics)


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## StevenC

thraxil said:


> I think the problem is that they've learned that there are just no consequences for acting in bad faith or even illegally as long as you win. Realistically, if the UK crashes out on Oct 31 with no deal, he may have broken the law, but what will happen? It seems to me that the government will have about a million more urgent things to deal with than punishing Boris for not requesting an extension.



Except he has to request on the 17th, so he'll be in legal trouble 2 weeks before a Full English could be served.



lewis said:


> i have nothing to add other than making "No deal" Illegal is the dumbest and most pathetic thing I can ever remember happening so far in my lifetime. (re. UK Politics)



Please elaborate?


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Mind you, I'm not saying he's an evil genius, I'm saying he's not stupid. He majored in classical greek of all things. It's not like he *only* inherited money. Of course, not all plans go according to... well, the plan, but I'd wager in his position he's just having a game of Prime Minister at the moment. He's shown before to be umindful of consequences for others. (I mean, Brexit is probably a good thing for the EU on the long run insofar as it rids us of UK politicians and of a US trojan horse, but it's probably a disaster for the UK.)


I just think we DO need to weight our priors a little bit here to consider that, whatever his ultimate plan may be, so far it doesn't appear to be going especially well.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

lewis said:


> i have nothing to add other than making "No deal" Illegal is the dumbest and most pathetic thing I can ever remember happening so far in my lifetime. (re. UK Politics)



Surely agreeing to offer, and abide by the result of, an advisory referendum to an ill informed public thereby doing away with the very purpose of the duly elected parliament on the single most important issue of a generation beats parliament trying to save the country despite the best efforts of our current tinpot dictator of a PM?

Remember the Brexit Bus and the 350 million a week we’re supposed to now be giving to the NHS? No? Good, goooood that’s what Emperor Boris wants you to think!


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## _MonSTeR_

Drew said:


> I just think we DO need to weight our priors a little bit here to consider that, whatever his ultimate plan may be, so far it doesn't appear to be going especially well.



BJ’s ultimate plan is to be Prime Minister and go down in history, no matter the cost.

I’d say he’s doing pretty well for himself so far...


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## Drew

_MonSTeR_ said:


> BJ’s ultimate plan is to be Prime Minister and go down in history, no matter the cost.
> 
> I’d say he’s doing pretty well for himself so far...


Well, he's currently Prime Minister, and he's certainly going down in history in some sense or other!


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## lewis

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Surely agreeing to offer, and abide by the result of, an advisory referendum to an ill informed public thereby doing away with the very purpose of the duly elected parliament on the single most important issue of a generation beats parliament trying to save the country despite the best efforts of our current tinpot dictator of a PM?
> 
> Remember the Brexit Bus and the 350 million a week we’re supposed to now be giving to the NHS? No? Good, goooood that’s what Emperor Boris wants you to think!



You know you can be remain and still find the principles behind making this "illegal", dumb asf right?


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## Given To Fly

Drew said:


> I just think we DO need to weight our priors a little bit here to consider that, whatever his ultimate plan may be, so far it doesn't appear to be going especially well.



What makes you say that?


----------



## Drew

lewis said:


> You know you can be remain and still find the principles behind making this "illegal", dumb asf right?


I'd be curious to hear the case that this was dumb, as a remainer. 

The case I've mostly heard was from the Leave side, that this weakens Johnson's negotiating position. Initially it seemed like there may have been a little truth from that coming out o G7, but what I'm reading is increasinly coalescing on there not having been much negotiating at all done at G7, and domestically the Johnson administration spending roughly 90% of their planning time on prepping for a no-deal Brexit, rather than actually trying to work out a more beneficial deal with the EU. Johnson himself has made it clear that he plans to use a EU summit on the 17-18th to push ahead with leaving without a deal and will only ask for an extension at the 11th hour after the summit itself is closed, if he's unable to find a legal loophole before then. From that context, it seems like tying Johnson's hands to at least try to delay the process of a no-deal Brexit until at leasy 1/31/2020 probably isn't a bad insurance policy.

But, if there's an argument to be made from someone on the Remain side, I'm all for hearing it out.


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Surely agreeing to offer, and abide by the result of, an advisory referendum to an ill informed public thereby doing away with the very purpose of the duly elected parliament on the single most important issue of a generation beats parliament trying to save the country despite the best efforts of our current tinpot dictator of a PM?
> 
> Remember the Brexit Bus and the 350 million a week we’re supposed to now be giving to the NHS? No? Good, goooood that’s what Emperor Boris wants you to think!



Let's also remember that the leave campaign broke electoral laws and the reason the result wasn't overturned was because it's advisory.


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## Andromalia

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Surely agreeing to offer, and abide by the result of, an advisory referendum to an ill informed public thereby doing away with the very purpose of the duly elected parliament



/devil's advocate
What makes you think that the duly elected parliament was elected by people well informed and immune to right wing lies ?

Misinforming the lower castes of society to the benefit of its elites is a constant of universal suffrage. It's the only way for the elites to keep winning elections when their rule profits a minority of the population.
As such, the result of the referendum is as valid as any other electoral result. Or as invalid. You pick, but they have the same legitimacy.


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## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> /devil's advocate
> What makes you think that the duly elected parliament was elected by people well informed and immune to right wing lies ?
> 
> Misinforming the lower castes of society to the benefit of its elites is a constant of universal suffrage. It's the only way for the elites to keep winning elections when their rule profits a minority of the population.
> As such, the result of the referendum is as valid as any other electoral result. Or as invalid. You pick, but they have the same legitimacy.



That's the point though, the parliament is elected by everyone, and then they are supposed to democratically decide on the best way forwards. In British politics "The Populace" is not supposed to directly make these sorts of decisions. Admittedly the decision was subsequently passed through the Commons, but as StevenC reminded us, the campaigns weren't fair and the remain politicians have been fighting an uphill struggle since Day 1.

What we got was the crazy uncle taking the kids to the candy store, telling them it's great for both their teeth and their waistline, and then asking if they want candy for dinner. What's supposed to happen is regardless of what the crazy uncle offers, the parents are supposed to make the decisions, not the kids.


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## Andromalia

I can't buy the fair campaign argument, _all political campaigns are like that_. The referendum one wasn't anything special. Yes, it was won by lies targeting the intellectually challenged, but that's how in most western countries the right wing wins elections.


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## Andromalia

And since I'm reading up on the subject - being between two jobs is great, the edit timer sucks though  - it appears tory donators are for a large part hedge funds who are taking short positions on the £, including ReesMogg and a good number of direct donors to Boris Johnson. At that point my opinion is that he's simply been bought. Brexit politicians seem to just be using politics for personal profit.


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## StevenC

We really seem to be trying hard mot to be outdone by the Americans.


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## Drew

StevenC said:


> We really seem to be trying hard mot to be outdone by the Americans.


You seem to be winning, now that a no-deal Brexit seems to be the most likely scenario, unless Johnson loses the snap election he's going to call after he's forced to ask for an extension.


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## StevenC

See you all tomorrow when once again nothing happens.

Not impressed that a group of Tories are appropriating ERG.


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## _MonSTeR_

Yep, at least the MPs have to work the weekend tomorrow!


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## possumkiller

Yeah this Johnson guy is making you guys look like a right bunch of toss pots or wankers or something. He seems like a mini Trump across the ocean.


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## Andromalia

One good side of this is, that the bristish parliament is much more fun to watch than the sleep medication we have in France.

Question: what's to disallow Johnson to launch a "my deal or no deal" referendum to force the issue ?


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## astrocreep

It's probably a good thing my job stops me being able to engage in discussions around this...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> Question: what's to disallow Johnson to launch a "my deal or no deal" referendum to force the issue ?



He'd have to get a vote for a referendum through parliament. Based on his track record of getting anything through parliament, he'd struggle.


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## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> One good side of this is, that the bristish parliament is much more fun to watch than the sleep medication we have in France.
> 
> Question: what's to disallow Johnson to launch a "my deal or no deal" referendum to force the issue ?


As Monster said, he'd need parliament to vote for it, and the likelihood is if that got tabled it'd get morphed into a "my deal or remain" referendum, since nobody wants no deal. If that then went to the people and he lost he'd probably never get elected again.


----------



## Vyn

I didn't think this circus could get any worse. Fuck. If you can deal with living with convicts I guess we've got space for you down here


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## Andromalia

Well there is significant pressure from the voters to just give the brits hell now. I understand that Germany wants to allow an extension because they are the country who sell the most stuff to the UK, but in France public opinion is going more and more "fuck'em, we don't have all day", assuming that a nodeal is still better than the UK staying in and hindering policies while their reps bicker.
On a brighter side, France would probably support a Scotland request for membership once they are independant.


----------



## narad

Andromalia said:


> I understand that Germany wants to allow an extension because they are the country who sell the most stuff to the UK, but in France public opinion is going more and more "fuck'em"



FTFY?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Vyn said:


> I didn't think this circus could get any worse. Fuck. If you can deal with living with convicts I guess we've got space for you down here



Actually very tempting, as is moving to Scotland...


----------



## Andromalia

narad said:


> FTFY?


Not really, I mean, if we reaaaaally wanted to mess with England, we'd just let all the migrants pass and renege on the whatsitsname agreement that the english-side of the customs is handled on french soil. The french side of the customs is also in England, as this is a reciprocate agreement, but the flow isn't symetrical. Yet. In practice it just ended up as France dealing with the UK migrant problem. To top it off, the UK requires that people cross the border first to ask for political asylum.


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## Andromalia

Update because short edit timer grmbl.

Not getting why Bercow refused a vote on the agreement, saying "no voting twice", since it wasn't voted on last saturday anyway ?


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Update because short edit timer grmbl.
> 
> Not getting why Bercow refused a vote on the agreement, saying "no voting twice", since it wasn't voted on last saturday anyway ?


Isn't that kind of why he refused the second vote? British parliamentary practice since the early 1600s has forbidden repeatedly putting the same bill up for a vote and hoping for a different result. 

Johnson lost Saturday's vote and now has to first pass the detailed legislation before he can have an up/down vote on the agreement in principle. Today he tried to have a second up/down vote on accepting the Brexit deal before the full details had been published (slated to happen today), and Bercow blocked it on the grounds that there was no substantive difference between his proposal defeated Saturday, and what he wanted to put forward today.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

It's the Letwin amendment which basically says "lets see the legislation before we vote", so until the legislation is ready to be adopted or rejected, no more votes. EDIT - The legislation dropped a little earlier tonight - 110 pages of rubbish and 125 pages explaining the rubbish, none of which is as good as being in the EU...

Remember, Britain is "taking back control"... and it's a "great" deal...

As for the shameful act of sending an unsigned letter... it's almost exactly what I'd have expected from BJ.


----------



## Drew

The "second read" vote evidently passed, saying there was at least potential for the broad outline of the deal to be accepted, but the fast-track amendment failed.

So... no-deal Brexit is now less likely, but the UK will likely have to ask for an extension, probably to the 31st...?

It's unclear if Johnson CAN call the snap election he wants, unless he gets support from Labor to do so, since Parliament will have to vote in favor of an election. But, let's say that happens, this is probably as close a we're going to get for a second referendum, Johnson campaigning to be re-elected on the back of his Brexit deal, while Labor... idunno, hopefully coming out in favor of remaining? More likely, though, they'll just blandly say we need a "better deal" than what Johnson has, and more likely than not Johnson loses, the Brexit mandate is still in place, and wash, rinse, repeat.

What a mess.


----------



## Andromalia

I wanted to point out that there is no option to Remain at that stage. The only way for the UK would be to apply again. I don't really get the point of a second referendum either since the issue has already been decided ? In a democracy you don't make people vote until you get the result you want, results are binding.


----------



## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> I wanted to point out that there is no option to Remain at that stage. The only way for the UK would be to apply again. I don't really get the point of a second referendum either since the issue has already been decided ? In a democracy you don't make people vote until you get the result you want, results are binding.


The UK can rescind article 50 and remain. Also, it's incredibly undemocratic to have a referendum on an undetermined issue and follow that result blindly. It is very democratic to reask questions once we are better informed. We had a referendum to enter the EU, so by your logic we should never have had the last one.


----------



## Nick

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Actually very tempting, as is moving to Scotland...



Why? To be surrounded by folk who all think this a fucking joke but ultimately have no say in the matter or any election really. If so, come on up.

This is beyond any sort of farce I could describe now. I cant even tell who I'm more pissed off at now, the brexit squad who are intent on oblivion or the cowards that keep voting down deal options but wont actuslly just stand up and say 'you know what, this is all a load of shite, none of us want this even the majority of us that supported it at the start, let's just fucking cancel it'.

They say we cant leave with no deal and they say all the deals are shit. There is only one option left according to parliment and that's the ond none of them are willing to vocalise.

I was just looking at some daft post on Facebook earlier about Brexit and it boggles my mind how so many English folk are still so wholeheartedly in support of this even with the facts laid out in front of them that they WILL be negatively impacted by it. Fucking unbelievable...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

The other thing is that a referendum like the Brexit referendum was merely advisory, it has no legal mandate and the government can choose to follow or ignore the result.

Cameron was stupid enough to say he’d follow the result, but honourable enough to realise leaving the EU was the dumbest political idea of his generation, so quit instead of following through with it.

Britain can only hope for an extension from sympathetic EU states in exchange for our large financial contributions till we have enough sense to revoke Article 50.

Our current PM is a petulant imbecile, despite his education, so won’t do that. As such, economically speaking, the country is on borrowed time... tick tock Mr Johnson, tick tock.


----------



## Nick

Andromalia said:


> I wanted to point out that there is no option to Remain at that stage. The only way for the UK would be to apply again. I don't really get the point of a second referendum either since the issue has already been decided ? In a democracy you don't make people vote until you get the result you want, results are binding.



In a parlimentary democracy results are advisory. Although they should never have let people vote on this in the first place. The whole reason they dont allow public votes on reintroduction of capital punishment is because they know the fucking idiots would vote it back in.


----------



## Nick

Drew said:


> It's unclear if Johnson CAN call the snap election he wants, unless he gets support from Labor to do so, since Parliament will have to vote in favor of an election. But, let's say that happens, this is probably as close a we're going to get for a second referendum, Johnson campaigning to be re-elected on the back of his Brexit deal, while Labor... idunno, hopefully coming out in favor of remaining? More likely, though, they'll just blandly say we need a "better deal" than what Johnson has, and more likely than not Johnson loses, the Brexit mandate is still in place, and wash, rinse, repeat.
> 
> What a mess.



Also this, Corbyn need to GTF, he is a prick, and has shown it all through this process. You can see his unwillingness to actually commit to anything is driven by the fact he doesn't want to upset potential voters for the next GE but only a moron could look at the last 18 months events and think that doing anything other than immediately revoking article 50 and voting to have 2017 - 2019 expunged from uk parlimentary record was a good idea. He had no spine and that is what uk politics is sadly lacking right now.


----------



## StevenC

Good news everyone! Northern Ireland politicians hit the incompetence deadline and now abortion has been decriminalised and same sex marriage will be legalised! Hooray for not having representation.


----------



## Edika

StevenC said:


> Good news everyone! Northern Ireland politicians hit the incompetence deadline and now abortion has been decriminalised and same sex marriage will be legalised! Hooray for not having representation.



Sometimes it pays off for not having a government and representation it seems. I'd like to welcome N.Ireland officially to the 20th century !


----------



## Nick

Edika said:


> Sometimes it pays off for not having a government and representation it seems. I'd like to welcome N.Ireland officially to the 20th century !



Exactly, tbh abortion being legal even being tabled as something to vote on is a disgrace. Dont like it? Cool dont have one. Dont like samecsex marriage great, makevsure you marry a member of the opposite, sex. Easy work.

The point at which it should be allowed up until should be decided upon by informed scientists, not Margaret who thinks these young harleys just need jesus. It literally should not be involved in politics.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

My wife sent me this as a random quote from reddit which sums up Brexit quite nicely...


> “I’m not saying there wasn’t a democratic mandate for Brexit at the time, I’m just saying that if I was at a restaurant, and narrowly decided to order the fish at a restaurant that was known for its chicken, but said it was happy to offer fish, and so far I’ve been waiting three and half hours for the fish, and two of the chefs who promised to cook the fish had quit, and the third one is promising to deliver the fish in the next five minutes whether the fish is actually cooked or not, or indeed is even still alive, and all the waiting staff have spent the last few hours arguing amongst themselves about whether I wanted battered cod, grilled salmon, jellied eels or dolphin kebabs. And if large parts of the restaurant appear to be on fire but no-one is paying any attention to that because they’re all arguing about the fish, I would quite like, just once, to be asked if I definitely still actually wanted the fish….”


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> My wife sent me this as a random quote from reddit which sums up Brexit quite nicely...



That is fucking great.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> I wanted to point out that there is no option to Remain at that stage. The only way for the UK would be to apply again. I don't really get the point of a second referendum either since the issue has already been decided ? In a democracy you don't make people vote until you get the result you want, results are binding.


I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in this post, aside from you're French and you want the Brits out. 

No option to remain? One, I'm not sure if even by the literal law that's true - Article 50 triggered a two year period before the UK had to leave, and what we've seen so far is that deadline has been extended a couple times. Now, I'm not an expert, but to begin with I don't believe Article 50 had any language about revoking Article 50 during that period... But I also don't believe it has any language _prohibiting_ revoking article 50 after invoking it. Second, if the deadline has already been delayed twice and we're now seeing the UK seek a third extension, then there's no reason that - if somehow Article 50 could NOT be revoked - this couldn't continue to be done indefinitely, letting the UK in practice remain without revokign their declaration of Article 50. There was an awesome twitter post I saw on Facebook the other day making this point, that it was the year 2263, and crowds were gathered at Brussels to watch the annual request for extension to Brexit, and even though no one could remember where this tradition had begun it was a joyous cause for celebration. Third, because there's no credible economist claiming that Brexit won't _also_ hurt the EU (even if it will likely hurt the UK more), if for some reason it had to come to a new application, I suspect it would be approved awfully fast, and that a Brexit extension could be granted for as long as the process needed. So, right off the bat, I can see a whole bunch of plausible paths to remain. 

As far as a second referendum, even ignoring arguments about a whole lot of people getting cold feet... As a reasonably unbiased bystander here, in a country that god knows has problems of its own, I think one of the major problems with the first referendum was it was a hypothetical - "should I stay or should I go," with no real-world understanding of what that actually meant. There's a pretty clear sense on this side of the pond that a lot of the support for Brexit fully expected it to be costless, that the UK could regain full autonomy over its borders and terms of trade, but the EU would still continue to extend it the full privileges it would have as a member state. That's clearly not the case. That's before you get into some of the literal factual inaccuracies of the Leave campaign, such as some of their claims about payments to the EU that could instead be directed to NHS. So, if the Brexit vote established a mandate to leave the EU, what it did NOT establish was a mandate for what conditions it was and was not permissible to leave. I think it's pretty sensible to put any final Brexit deal to a final referendum, and if we accept as a premise that EU membership should be a matter decided by public referendum, then let's have that vote, the Brexit deal the UK was able to negotiate with the EU on one hand, and a revocation of article 50 and remaining a EU member state on the other. 

If nothing else, given the fact the Brexit vote was three fucking years ago and a whole heck of a lot has happened since then, I think getting some confirmation that the Brits really want to do this would be a good idea.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Drew said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say in this post, aside from you're French and you want the Brits out.
> 
> No option to remain? One, I'm not sure if even by the literal law that's true - Article 50 triggered a two year period before the UK had to leave, and what we've seen so far is that deadline has been extended a couple times. Now, I'm not an expert, but to begin with I don't believe Article 50 had any language about revoking Article 50 during that period... But I also don't believe it has any language _prohibiting_ revoking article 50 after invoking it. Second, if the deadline has already been delayed twice and we're now seeing the UK seek a third extension, then there's no reason that - if somehow Article 50 could NOT be revoked - this couldn't continue to be done indefinitely, letting the UK in practice remain without revokign their declaration of Article 50. There was an awesome twitter post I saw on Facebook the other day making this point, that it was the year 2263, and crowds were gathered at Brussels to watch the annual request for extension to Brexit, and even though no one could remember where this tradition had begun it was a joyous cause for celebration. Third, because there's no credible economist claiming that Brexit won't _also_ hurt the EU (even if it will likely hurt the UK more), if for some reason it had to come to a new application, I suspect it would be approved awfully fast, and that a Brexit extension could be granted for as long as the process needed. So, right off the bat, I can see a whole bunch of plausible paths to remain.
> 
> As far as a second referendum, even ignoring arguments about a whole lot of people getting cold feet... As a reasonably unbiased bystander here, in a country that god knows has problems of its own, I think one of the major problems with the first referendum was it was a hypothetical - "should I stay or should I go," with no real-world understanding of what that actually meant. There's a pretty clear sense on this side of the pond that a lot of the support for Brexit fully expected it to be costless, that the UK could regain full autonomy over its borders and terms of trade, but the EU would still continue to extend it the full privileges it would have as a member state. That's clearly not the case. That's before you get into some of the literal factual inaccuracies of the Leave campaign, such as some of their claims about payments to the EU that could instead be directed to NHS. So, if the Brexit vote established a mandate to leave the EU, what it did NOT establish was a mandate for what conditions it was and was not permissible to leave. I think it's pretty sensible to put any final Brexit deal to a final referendum, and if we accept as a premise that EU membership should be a matter decided by public referendum, then let's have that vote, the Brexit deal the UK was able to negotiate with the EU on one hand, and a revocation of article 50 and remaining a EU member state on the other.
> 
> If nothing else, given the fact the Brexit vote was three fucking years ago and a whole heck of a lot has happened since then, I think getting some confirmation that the Brits really want to do this would be a good idea.



The revocation of Article 50 is (according to the bloke that wrote Article 50) something that the member state themselves can do in the same way that any member state can activate Article 50. We Just have to find a PM bright enough and a Parliament honourable enough to "do the right thing". We don't have one at the moment and unfortunately are unlikely to get one. Macron may cut off France's nose to spite his country's face and refuse an extension which is likely to cost France economically but help him professionally. We're screwed, the French are screwed, the southern member states are screwed, the only people who'll actually see benefits are Germany who'll increase their power within the EU. Some might wonder... "Who won the second world war?" 

Oh and the trouble is that there are probably enough Brits who DO still want Brexit. There was a graph published at the time that equated increased education level with increased likelihood to vote remain. All the folks who are too ignorant to realise the damage it will do to the country, starting with their low skilled jobs... this is why Parliament is supposed to make these sorts of decisions, not the unwashed masses. Most of the folks who voted for Brexit simply don't understand the implications of "leave". The worst part is that they don't even realise they don't know...


----------



## Andromalia

> Third, because there's no credible economist claiming that Brexit won't _also_ hurt the EU (even if it will likely hurt the UK more), if for some reason it had to come to a new application, I suspect it would be approved awfully fast



Not sure, for a variety of reasons.
If a lot of people in the EU want the UK out, this is because in the past the UK has negociated in bad faith various advantages and exemptions of various kinds, threatening to veto everything otherwise. The UK has a very strong rep for being uncooperative and antieuropean, trying to reap the benefits without getting the responsibilities. Sounds familiar ? Yes, that's exactly how Theresa May tried to get a deal where, pardon my french, the UK could royally fuck the EU sideways. So we have a strong feeling the UK politicians haven't changed in that regard since the Thatcher governments: they're still that way _today_.

The UK leaving will certainly have an effect, but I do firmly believe the long term effect on EU growth will be positive, because of the overall repeated beahviour of the past and current british governments. The fact that Boris Johnson is a major troll is also a good reason to want to keep him as far from the EU as possible. Scotland applying would likely be pretty fast. _England _? Doubt it.

The current joke over here is that brits aren't actually antieuropean: they just bicker so much they never get anything done, this is their natural state.

As a side note, "brit" in the above applies to government officials, very few people here actually dislike the english _people_. They just have horrible taste in food but nobody is perfect.
As a second side note, this is my opinion, and I don't claim it to be "the truth". It's just my opinion.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I really appreciate you making the distinction between our politicians and the British people.

You’re right, a lot of our politicians do like to piss off the EU, but with more Liberal Democrat’s being elected to the European Parliament we have both sides of the coin representing the U.K. and those guys do want to play nice with the rest of our European colleagues. Some of us would love to be more integrated into Europe, and some of the right wing folks would do anything to leave... the problem is we as a country are literally split down the middle, it’s just the brexiteers are the loudmouth gobshites like Nigel Farage, and they just shout louder appealing to the lowest common denominator We’re still waiting for £350 million a week for the NHS... 

You’re also right in that our traditional food sucks.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Not sure, for a variety of reasons.
> If a lot of people in the EU want the UK out, this is because in the past the UK has negociated in bad faith various advantages and exemptions of various kinds, threatening to veto everything otherwise. The UK has a very strong rep for being uncooperative and antieuropean, trying to reap the benefits without getting the responsibilities. Sounds familiar ? Yes, that's exactly how Theresa May tried to get a deal where, pardon my french, the UK could royally fuck the EU sideways. So we have a strong feeling the UK politicians haven't changed in that regard since the Thatcher governments: they're still that way _today_.
> 
> The UK leaving will certainly have an effect, but I do firmly believe the long term effect on EU growth will be positive, because of the overall repeated beahviour of the past and current british governments. The fact that Boris Johnson is a major troll is also a good reason to want to keep him as far from the EU as possible. Scotland applying would likely be pretty fast. _England _? Doubt it.
> 
> The current joke over here is that brits aren't actually antieuropean: they just bicker so much they never get anything done, this is their natural state.
> 
> As a side note, "brit" in the above applies to government officials, very few people here actually dislike the english _people_. They just have horrible taste in food but nobody is perfect.
> As a second side note, this is my opinion, and I don't claim it to be "the truth". It's just my opinion.


I think the _French_ want the UK out, and Marcon's refusing to allow an extension until after Parliament votes on whether or not to hold an election in December is only the latest example of that. Most of the EU does not, however, and ultimately it's widely expected that Marcon will support an extension, too, when push comes to shove. 

I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but I think the World Bank's long term estimation was that Brexit would cost the UK about 3.7 percentage points of GDP, and the EU about 0.3 points. Not huge, maybe, but considering the vastly larger size of the EU's economy than the UK's, also hardly negligible. Brexit is NOT a long term benefit to the EU. It would be a lot uglier for the UK than the EU, but they're both going to take a hit to economic growth (and, really, already are).

Johnson is an idiot - you Brits, you have a way with colorful language, someone propose something better than idiot here - but I think a pretty reasonable conclusion of a world where Johnson fails to secure a majority large enough to push his deal through, or a majority at _all_, is that Johnson's days as PM are numbered. Corbyn may not be much better, but there really isn't a feasible scenario where the UK decides to remain after all while Boris Johnson, the man who tied his star to Brexit, stays on.


----------



## SirToastalot

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-against-mps-is-price-worth-paying-for-brexit

When you have parts of the population becoming so illogical in their reasonings...anything can happen. The bar has been set so low in this current political climate.

I have family in Scotland, and they used to be traditional Labour voters, but have become SNP supporters. They voted for leaving the EU, since they were 'persuaded' via social media articles that it would speed up Scotland's path to Independence.

I remember being on a train (leaving central London) back in the summer of 2016, quite late at night, and overhearing a drunken argument over Brexit. The same silly topics are still being discussed at this point in time, and by vastly more qualified individuals. Yikes.


----------



## Drew

SirToastalot said:


> I have family in Scotland, and they used to be traditional Labour voters, but have become SNP supporters. They voted for leaving the EU, since they were 'persuaded' via social media articles that it would speed up Scotland's path to Independence.


Do they still feel that way?


----------



## Andromalia

> Brexit is NOT a long term benefit to the EU.



Guess we'll just disagree on that. My opinion being that the benefit would be in terms of efficiency in decision making, as in removing the handbrake that is the UK, if you will. Nobody is contesting that there will be short term issues.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Drew said:


> Johnson is an idiot - you Brits, you have a way with colorful language, someone propose something better than idiot here - but I think a pretty reasonable conclusion of a world where Johnson fails to secure a majority large enough to push his deal through, or a majority at _all_, is that Johnson's days as PM are numbered. Corbyn may not be much better, but there really isn't a feasible scenario where the UK decides to remain after all while Boris Johnson, the man who tied his star to Brexit, stays on.



I've tried a few words for Boris Johnson, but the swear filter picks up most of them! £$%^ is one I like to use and $%^&^%$%^& is another  Personally I think he's... a *cad*, a *varlet*, a *blackguard *and a *charlatan*.

BJ is also a right wing television personality, who is popular with the average man who see his buffoonery as making him seem a man of the people. Corbyn has no charisma and was brought to leadership of his party (allegedly) by a wave of idealistic student votes. Labour's vote is just as split as the conservatives with a lot of traditional labour supporters thinking (wrongly) that Britain would be more competitive outside of the EU. As such we've got leavers and remainers on both sides of the two main parties and smaller parties both for leave and for remain.

Johnson's plan for an election is simply to remove any dissenting voices from selection as conservative candidates and stand "loyal" conservatives in those constituencies, with the idea of propping up a majority in the House with right wingers who'll act as his mindless slaves. Labour is stuck because their financial backers want remain and their individual members are split. The Lib Dems say cancel Brexit, so can only get 48% of the vote max and the Brexit party (who are one goosestep away from being an alt-right group) think that they'll have a landslide victory because they hate Europe so much but although they have a big presence as our Members of European Parliament they don't have any domestic MPs...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Oh and if we _don't_ leave on October 31st I'm still waiting for Boris Johnson's "Do or Die" pledge on Brexit. 

I wonder if he'll follow through with that one?


----------



## Nick

Drew said:


> Johnson is an idiot - you Brits, you have a way with colorful language, someone propose something better than idiot here



Happy to oblige - 'Cunt'


----------



## Nick

SirToastalot said:


> I have family in Scotland, and they used to be traditional Labour voters, but have become SNP supporters. They voted for leaving the EU, since they were 'persuaded' via social media articles that it would speed up Scotland's path to Independence.



That's fucking mental, people up here voted to stay in the uk so we could stay in the EU. I cant see how vitingvto leave the eu after staying in the uk would seem like the right choice.


----------



## Nick

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Oh and if we _don't_ leave on October 31st I'm still waiting for Boris Johnson's "Do or Die" pledge on Brexit.
> 
> I wonder if he'll follow through with that one?



If he needs help I can clear my schedule.


----------



## SirToastalot

Drew said:


> Do they still feel that way?



It's difficult to gauge. There was some embarrassment about believing in the fake information presented in those articles from social media, but they still believe that Independence is the priority for Scotland, no matter the outcome of Remaining or Leaving.



Nick said:


> That's fucking mental, people up here voted to stay in the UK so we could stay in the EU. I can't see how voting to leave the EU after staying in the UK would seem like the right choice.



My relatives are of an older generation, and don't really care about the future ramifications of these decisions and how they could have detrimental effects for the younger population.


----------



## Nick

SirToastalot said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> My relatives are of an older generation, and don't really care about the future ramifications of these decisions and how they could have detrimental effects for the younger population.



What's wrong with western society described in one paragraph


----------



## _MonSTeR_

SirToastalot said:


> My relatives are of an older generation, and don't really care about the future ramifications of these decisions and how they could have detrimental effects for the younger population.





Nick said:


> What's wrong with western society described in one paragraph




There are young adults now who are eligible to vote who were just *14* at the time of the last vote. This is why, to take this decision, we need another vote. The population that will be dragged out of the EU is NOT the population that voted for it.


----------



## Andromalia

_MonSTeR_ said:


> There are young adults now who are eligible to vote who were just *14* at the time of the last vote. This is why, to take this decision, we need another vote. The population that will be dragged out of the EU is NOT the population that voted for it.



Well, if every generation wanted a revote on what was passed before they became of age, it'd be election day every day. One of the key unwritten rules of democracy is that once a vote is done, it's done. Otherwise it's Pandora's box. Where do you stop ? What do you say to people who actually won the vote ? "Sorry but lol, no, fuck your vote we're redoing it because we don't like that you won" ? Can we redo MPs elections too ? Presidential elections ? I was -17 when the french constitution was adopted by referendum, can I ask for a revote too ?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

We sorted out the First World War in not much less time than it’s taking us to sort out Brexit. Three Tory Prime Ministers haven’t managed to sort Brexit in that time; it’s time for a new paradigm. A non binding advisory referendum indicated that 37% of the population would like to have left the EU under unspecified conditions nearly 4 years ago. The US has n election every 4 years, the UK normally has one every 5 years.

If we’d have exited by now, that would have been one thing, but as it is, even the politicians can’t agree the best path forwards...


----------



## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> Well, if every generation wanted a revote on what was passed before they became of age, it'd be election day every day. One of the key unwritten rules of democracy is that once a vote is done, it's done. Otherwise it's Pandora's box. Where do you stop ? What do you say to people who actually won the vote ? "Sorry but lol, no, fuck your vote we're redoing it because we don't like that you won" ? Can we redo MPs elections too ? Presidential elections ? I was -17 when the french constitution was adopted by referendum, can I ask for a revote too ?


That's silly.

Once a vote is done, it is done. That doesn't mean that the question can't be reasked. That's a fundamental tenet of democracy. We literally redo MP elections every 5 years, or in 2015, 2017 and I guess 2019. Presidents aren't life long appointments. Why shouldn't you be able to have a new constitution? We had a referendum where 67.2% where in favour of joining the EU in 1975. Are you in favour of throwing out the 2016 result? 

Are you trolling? You either have to argue that parliamentary elections having terms is undemocratic, or referenda can be retested. You can't have both.

I get you don't like the British politicians messing with the EU. Nor do I, but come on.


----------



## JSanta

The Brexit vote was a non-binding referendum, correct?

I don't have a vote, but I would think it would make sense to have another vote, but more specific this time: have a choice between a no-deal Brexit, what the PM has tried to push through parliament, or remain.

There were no real options presented at the last election from what I can tell. It also appears that there were a significant amount of lies or at the very least exaggerations about what the exit from the EU would entail, and it seems like a good idea to present the voters what the real options are, versus ideals of what could be.


----------



## Vyn

JSanta said:


> The Brexit vote was a non-binding referendum, correct?
> 
> I don't have a vote, but I would think it would make sense to have another vote, but more specific this time: have a choice between a no-deal Brexit, what the PM has tried to push through parliament, or remain.
> 
> There were no real options presented at the last election from what I can tell. It also appears that there were a significant amount of lies or at the very least exaggerations about what the exit from the EU would entail, and it seems like a good idea to present the voters what the real options are, versus ideals of what could be.



The leave vote was 100% built on lies. There is no benefit to anyone having the UK leave the EU. Anyone who thinks that there is doesn’t have a single well-reasoned argument to back up their opinion.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Also, you have to remember that Boris Johnson was at one time a remainer, Sajid Javid was a remainer, countless other MPs will have changed their minds at one time or another. If they’re able to change their minds why can’t the populace. 

It’d also be nice to know what is actually being voted on. Is it voting for funding our NHS to the tune of £350 million a week? Or, is voting for medicine shortages, factory closures and reduced environmental standards?

There are plenty of folks who voted for the former, but no one was told about the latter.


----------



## Andromalia

> Are you trolling?


If I can't have a decent conversation, I'm out of here.



> Is it voting for funding our NHS to the tune of £350 million a week?


Who the hell actually believed that, seriously. Stupidity isn't an excuse.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Well, if every generation wanted a revote on what was passed before they became of age, it'd be election day every day. One of the key unwritten rules of democracy is that once a vote is done, it's done. Otherwise it's Pandora's box. Where do you stop ? What do you say to people who actually won the vote ? "Sorry but lol, no, fuck your vote we're redoing it because we don't like that you won" ? Can we redo MPs elections too ? Presidential elections ? I was -17 when the french constitution was adopted by referendum, can I ask for a revote too ?


Are you familiar with the 21st Amendment, here in the United States? Here it is in its entirety: 


21st Amendment said:


> Section 1. The eighteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States is hereby repealed.
> 
> Section 2. The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.
> 
> Section 3. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by conventions in the several States, as provided in the Constitution, within seven years from the date of the submission hereof to the States by the Congress. Effect of Repeal



The 18th Amendment had been passed by Congress in 1919. The 21st was passed in 1933, 14 years later, and did no more than reverse the 18th. Why? Because in 14 years, a majority of people had decided the 18th was a mistake. 

Really, the fact there IS a process for passing amendments or creating laws, in the first place, codifies the belief into a government (the US, the UK, whichever) that people CAN change their minds, and that even when a government code of law is initially crafted, the government should be free to revisit those earliest votes and change its mind. This isn't a radical point of view. 

If a second referendum on Brexit happens, and the UK opts to remain, that's because a majority of Brits believe the UK should be part of the EU, and under the principle of democratic rule, the majority prevails. 



Andromalia said:


> Guess we'll just disagree on that. My opinion being that the benefit would be in terms of efficiency in decision making, as in removing the handbrake that is the UK, if you will. Nobody is contesting that there will be short term issues.


You're free to disagree. Just know that when you do, professional economists - the people who study how economies behave - are virtually unanimous in thinking that you're wrong. A little out of date, but the IMF's analysis as of last summer:

https://blogs.imf.org/2018/08/10/the-long-term-impact-of-brexit-on-the-european-union/

Not the article I was thinking of, though I suspect the one I was thinking of is behind a paywall and not something I can find on google or even really share, for that matter.


----------



## r33per

Well... that was some exit poll. We'll see what the morning brings.


----------



## Vyn

r33per said:


> Well... that was some exit poll. We'll see what the morning brings.



Fucking hell that came out of nowhere. Although given how unpopular Jeremy is, it's not that surprising.


----------



## thraxil

Bloody hell.

What do you think? We're out of the EU by end of January if not earlier. Scotland and NI will both have first steps towards leaving the UK by the end of 2020.


----------



## ImNotAhab

thraxil said:


> Bloody hell.
> 
> What do you think? We're out of the EU by end of January if not earlier. Scotland and NI will both have first steps towards leaving the UK by the end of 2020.


I hope England can engage in good relations with both the EU as a whole as well the as the United Republican Union of Ireland, Scotland and maybe some of Wales.*


*Working Title


----------



## StevenC

ImNotAhab said:


> I hope England can engage in good relations with both the EU as a whole as well the as the United Republican Union of Ireland, Scotland and maybe some of Wales.*
> 
> 
> *Working Title


Uh, screw Wales. Thwy consistently make the wrong decisions. Almost as bad as England and Ireland. Maybe we should just let the Scots be in charge of everything.


----------



## r33per

StevenC said:


> Uh, screw Wales. Thwy consistently make the wrong decisions. Almost as bad as England and Ireland. Maybe we should just let the Scots be in charge of everything.


1. Is Thwy a Welsh word? 

2. Us Scots have never ever screwed up anything, so this is a great idea.


----------



## StevenC

r33per said:


> 1. Is Thwy a Welsh word?
> 
> 2. Us Scots have never ever screwed up anything, so this is a great idea.


1. It is impossible to confirm or deny this.

2. It is impossible to confirm or deny this.


----------



## Edika

Unless someone tampered with the election results, I swear the collective IQ of people is dropping significantly. What else would you call a overwhelming majority from the party that brought the UK it is now in the last 9-10 years and has managed to make shit show of Brexit in the last three years. 

I know that there are a lot of people that didn't want this but will be affected by this shitstorm but I think the majority needs a really really stiff lesson to get it through tehir thick Australopithicus skulls what the repercussions of voting for a hot air balloon and his millionaire/billionaire cronies is going to do to their everyday lives. 

If people can't tell fact from fiction that's their problem not mine. I'm not a Corbyn fan or a Labour fan as I find them like every center party, just a bit better on some issues than the center right (usually supported by the far right in crucial moments). But compared to the Torries their policies are fucking stellar. And the god damn BBC wants a license paid to support Tories these one sidedly? No no no... 

Well I'm done, I've already sent my first job application in another country and more will follow this weekend. I'm sorry but this doesn't really concern me anymore. Hopefully N.Ireland and Scotland will manage to cut off the ass cancer that Britain is.


----------



## StevenC

To be fair, more people voted for remain/second referendum parties than breakfast parties, so there's that issue as well.

Not that there aren't a bunch of people in England and Wales voting against their best interests, there's just a massive issue with First Past the Post being used to represent such things as a mandate to make breakfast.


----------



## sleewell

mojo sent


----------



## ImNotAhab

There was a Nationalist majority voted in the North for the first time. Hopefully that might in some way help get the Stormont Assembly back up and running.


----------



## Edika

My post was quite aggressive and it's usually not the way I communicate. Now that I'm a lot calmer I'd like to apologise if I was too rude to some people. Not the ones voting for Tories though . 

It's the same old routine, the center left parties were scattered left and right while the Tories pulled in all the extreme right wing factions. That's the case in most countries though. That's what happened to my country in the summer general election and the new/old right wing government absorbed all the extreme right wing fanatics. 

Regardless of the voting majority going for pro remain parties that would have worked if the Tories didn't achieve more than 40 seats to have a government without any coalition. 

I heard several times the argument aboit Corbyn being unlikeable, about antisemitism (I didn't know criticising Israel for it's handling of Palestine made you antisemitic) but nothing about his policies. 
While Johnson, a proven racist and bigot, just sailed through with his bumbling buffoon routine. Don't get me wrong, I believe Johnson is really intelligent and in no way the British Trump. But he's just an immoral ghoul with the integrity and tenacity of a wet napkin. Corbyn might be so but there's no actual evidence he actually is. 

Whoever thought Gebelian propaganda is dead is dead wrong. I was speaking with my wife and she told me that in the US they're focusing on Elizabeth Warren having $2mil dollars in savings workimg as an attorney for 30 years. It's a lot of money for simple folk but is it comparable to the multimillion and billions of dollars most prominent politicians running for US office have from shady deals? Does it require a lot of brain power to see who the current president is and that Bloomberg is running also? FFS.


----------



## Chiba666

Bloody election that’s all I Will say on that. The anything thing for me was that my postal vote didn’t arrive in time so didn’t have chance to cast my vote, not that it would make a difference as my constituency is massive Tory and will always be Tory due to King Arthur was getting my vote, yes he does stand in elections, I will say one thing though there would have been a large chance I would vote labour as I don’t believe leaving the EU is a good idea but the idea of voting for Corbyn was never going to be an option or letting the Diane Abbot into a sitting Government also was not something I would want to happen


----------



## Nick

I dont get this.

Yeah Dianne abbot is most likely an idiot but the default vote to keep her out of the government should not be:

Fuck the old
Fuck the poor
Fuck the mentally ill 
Fuck public services
Fuck the homeless
Me first and fuck everyone else 

Because the torys have proven over the last 9 years that, that is there agenda. I really hope they prove me wrong but I dont think they will. Why would they? They have just had it affirmed that they can literally do whatever they like at the expense of anyone and they will not only get re-elected but with a strengthened majority.

So these absolute scumbags get votes over a well meaning idiot? I dont get it.


----------



## Chiba666

A labour win would have been great for me on a personal level, nice pay rise, 4 day working week and all of the rest of Corbyns socialist dreams. On the down side working in defence would have probably gone against me and my current work location may well have had to change.

aside from that his history of supporting terrorists rubs me up the wrong way as well as where the money would have come from. All those he would tax the most would leave and take their cash with them.

neither of the main parties would have got my vote as neither were great for me or my family.


----------



## ImNotAhab

Tomorrow is the big day you crazy cats. God Speed.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Looking forward to the huge 350 million a week cash injection for the NHS that will clearly start on Monday.

Right, Boris?

_Right?_


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Looking forward to the huge 350 million a week cash injection for the NHS that will clearly start on Monday.
> 
> Right, Boris?
> 
> _Right?_


No no no. You've got it all wrong. This is only the start of the transition period. The 350 million won't start until January 1st 2020.


----------



## StevenC

Also, in a move seemingly to poke fun at this most freedomous and historic day of Her Majesty, the EU has now given the phones of the world a universal charging port.


----------



## Chiba666

Well at 20.49 (I’m -3 hours GMT), I will drink a tin of wobbly (German beer) in disgust at what’s happening today.


----------



## Drew

17 minutes and counting here, as I'm about to leave work. God save the Queen, I guess.


----------



## StevenC

To be fair, it was a lot less windy when we were in the EU.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> To be fair, it was a lot less windy when we were in the EU.


 

Most british response ever!


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> Most british response ever!


You're lucky I don't have a strong sense of national identity, or thems might be fightin' words.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> You're lucky I don't have a strong sense of national identity, or thems might be fightin' words.


*looks at user location* 

My sincerest apologies, my good man.


----------



## Vyn

My condolences to everyone on this board who resides in the UK. Poor bastards


----------



## Andromalia

Can someone explain to me what Johnson is trying to achieve exactly ? I just don't get it.
He's making demands from a weak position and no chance of getting anyting he asks for given the ridiculousness of the requests. (to sum up, free access to the EU market but the ability to subsidise UK companies to screw europeans businesses. Guess what, the asnwer will be "no" forever to that one.) It's like he's trying to bluff at poker with no cards. Everybody is seeing it except him ?

I'm genuinely curious as to what he's actually trying to gain, or even not lose there, because the current scenario is the one where the UK stands to lose the most, and probably where the UK itself will be disbanded in a few years.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Can someone explain to me what Johnson is trying to achieve exactly ? I just don't get it.
> He's making demands from a weak position and no chance of getting anyting he asks for given the ridiculousness of the requests. (to sum up, free access to the EU market but the ability to subsidise UK companies to screw europeans businesses. Guess what, the asnwer will be "no" forever to that one.) It's like he's trying to bluff at poker with no cards. Everybody is seeing it except him ?
> 
> I'm genuinely curious as to what he's actually trying to gain, or even not lose there, because the current scenario is the one where the UK stands to lose the most, and probably where the UK itself will be disbanded in a few years.


Outsider's perspective - I thought he was trying to force a hard Brexit anyway via a breakdown in negotiations, which in turn would prompt a constitutional crisis for you guys, I assume, so I guess he has some reason to like his odds there, too? Or figured as simply as it's in his political best interest to be seen as doing everything possible to deliver a hard no-deal Brexit even if he eventually loses.


----------



## Andromalia

The thing is, a hard Brexit is really, like, really bad for the UK.
It will, of course, allow them to choose whatever policy they want for whatever product they want.
It will, however, submit products non compliant with EU laws to an outright ban, and product whose means of productions aren't compliant, to severe customs.
And we can already see the USA, Japan and China aren't overly eager to sign "sweet deals" with the UK: they want to profit off Beexit to the UK detriment, something the UK government has been amply warned about.
It feels like he's sabotaging his own country and I don't get it. (Not many people on the continent, do, tbh)

As a French, I suppose I could just laugh at the fall of the immemorial Nemesis but... Britannia waives the rules ! isn't going to work.


----------



## Chiba666

I don’t get it either But Mr Borris Trump and his unelected chief seem to think they know what’s best. I don’t think they do and have been against this farce and waste of money since day 1. My old man is very much get out as the world wants to deal with the UK, any chance these big companies get they are going to be off. UK isn’t this powerhouse it once was so I can’t see where this bright future is. RN will be busy keeping the pesky fishermen out of UK waters, oh hang on we haven’t got a navy anymore.
Good job we can use sat nav in our nice shiny UK made cars, oh hang on. We don’t have sat nav post brexit and all the good car makers have left so we’re driving a really expensive import.

I can see it now, we’re all doomed


----------



## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> The thing is, a hard Brexit is really, like, really bad for the UK.


But freedom and liberty and tyranny and brown people?


----------



## ImNotAhab

Andromalia said:


> Britannia waives the rules ! isn't going to work.



Hahaha, this got me.


----------



## Andromalia

https://twitter.com/MattGarrahan/st...1889-128/politique-et-economie-au-royaume-uni

After 'Murica, here comes Uuuhngland.


----------



## StevenC

It's a bad state of affairs when Boris is PM and I'm kinda wishing we had direct rule for a few months.


----------



## possumkiller

Is anything still going on with this? With all the US election and corvid stuff, I haven't really heard anything about brexit in a while. Is that still happening?


----------



## StevenC

possumkiller said:


> Is anything still going on with this? With all the US election and corvid stuff, I haven't really heard anything about brexit in a while. Is that still happening?


Yeah, still on. Boris took two big defeats this past week when Biden won, which will protect the Irish border situation that Trump probably isn't aware of; and with the House of Lords defeat his proposal to break international trade law by imposing economic separations on Northern Ireland.

Which altogether makes things incredibly complicated for Brexit, because Republic of Ireland can't be segregated from Europe, Northern Ireland can't be segregated from the UK, and NI and ROI have to have an open border. Satisfying all 3 was always going to be the main problem of Brexit, but now they've actually got enforcement of all of them.

I was just complaining about the NI Executive's floundering and abdication over COVID restrictions.


----------



## Louis Cypher

possumkiller said:


> Is anything still going on with this? With all the US election and corvid stuff, I haven't really heard anything about brexit in a while. Is that still happening?


34 working days left and as it stands we are leaving with No Deal unless the UK Gov folds due to reality setting in and takes whatever deal it can get now to save face. Gove was in Parliment today and couldnt answer any questions directly with regards to what is in place for the 1st Jan already, as basically nothing is ready for a No Deal, or tbh whatever BS deal we do get last min. The stumbling block is partly fishing rights in UK waters which apparently are integral to the UK's identity and sovereignty, even tho the fishing industry in the UK contributes less to the economy apparently than Harrods does. Its a clusterfcuk wrapped in a farce, boxed up in faux patriotism, with the ribbons and bows of old school colonialism, racism and xenophobia
But you know, as StevenC said (edited slightly)....


StevenC said:


> But freedom and liberty and tyranny and too many brown people?


----------



## Louis Cypher

This story sums it up nicely tbh
Headline is: Post-Brexit lorry queues could make Kent 'toilet of England'
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...orry-queues-could-make-kent-toilet-of-england

"...Campaigners warn that roads and laybys are already littered with urine and excrement...."


----------



## Demiurge

^I don't know how the port-o-johns are over there, but I can easily see shitting in a bag remaining the better alternative.


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> 34 working days left and as it stands we are leaving with No Deal unless the UK Gov folds due to reality setting in and takes whatever deal it can get now to save face. Gove was in Parliment today and couldnt answer any questions directly with regards to what is in place for the 1st Jan already, as basically nothing is ready for a No Deal, or tbh whatever BS deal we do get last min. The stumbling block is partly fishing rights in UK waters which apparently are integral to the UK's identity and sovereignty, even tho the fishing industry in the UK contributes less to the economy apparently than Harrods does. Its a clusterfcuk wrapped in a farce, boxed up in faux patriotism, with the ribbons and bows of old school colonialism, racism and xenophobia
> But you know, as StevenC said (edited slightly)....


Bear in mind this is the same Michael Gove whose father's fishing business was destroyed* by the EU.

*actually his dad said it wasn't, because that was obviously a lie and Gove hasn't got a clue


----------



## _MonSTeR_

“There is no plan for no deal because we’re going to get a great deal”

Boris Johnson, House of Commons, July 11th 2017.


----------



## Louis Cypher

_MonSTeR_ said:


> “There is no plan for no deal because we’re going to get a great deal”
> 
> Boris Johnson, House of Commons, July 11th 2017.


Gove today in his speech just trotted out that we have to leave the Single Market and the Customs Union as have so many of them the last year or so, when back before the referendum and prob up until the last couple of years or so, everyone of the hardcore brexit head bangers claimed there was no question of us leaving either


----------



## StevenC

I don't know about you guys, but I'm starting to think there was no plan to begin with.


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> I don't know about you guys, but I'm starting to think there was no plan to begin with.


I dont think so either, I think they never expected to win the vote in the first place and even tho its been over 4 years since they still have no idea because at the end of the day Brexit is a feeling its an emotion, its not based in any sort of reality. The only thing planned was before the vote, that giving in and allowing the vote would fix the Tory party divisions over the EU and they got the opposite of what Cameron etc all wanted with the out vote and now the party is more divided than ever, coz just like every one who voted for brexit they all have their own idea of what brexit actually is and means. except the hardcore in the Tory party all still think its gonna amazing, for them it will be I am sure as this goverment contains the most number of millionaire ever for a UK Governing party...... Boris' problem is his millionaire/billionaire backers what it for one reason, the ERG etc want it for another, Cummings wants it for his own reasons, he knows half the country dont want it at all, he knows he has promises to meet to the Northern Labour supporters that gave him his 80 seat majority based on his Brexit promises, plus he knows he cant break the Good Friday Agreement, plus Covid...... and most importantly of all for Boris he has to make sure when it does all blow up that it is not his fault!


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Boris earned more as a ‘journalist’ than a PM, he’ll earn even more when he goes back to it.

The U.K. is doomed, a lot of the legislation that we will continue to follow has its original in EU legislation. It was brought into the U.K. system by the withdrawal bill. Then a few weeks ago loads of it was quietly amended so as not to apply in the U.K., just in ‘Great Britain’...


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Boris earned more as a ‘journalist’ than a PM, he’ll earn even more when he goes back to it.
> 
> The U.K. is doomed, a lot of the legislation that we will continue to follow has its original in EU legislation. It was brought into the U.K. system by the withdrawal bill. Then a few weeks ago loads of it was quietly amended so as not to apply in the U.K., just in ‘Great Britain’...


Can you guys please wait a few years to explode so that the South can get their shit together before we have to join up with them?


----------



## Louis Cypher

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Boris earned more as a ‘journalist’ than a PM, he’ll earn even more when he goes back to it.


Unbelievably with everything the UK is going through with Covid due to this Gov incompetence and the job losses etc, billions going to unvetted companies with dubious links to high profile gov lackeys and then Brexit on top, Boris and his "friends" had been complaining that his £150,000 a yr salary as PM is no where near enough to live properly on, he can't even afford a Nanny for his 7th or 8th or 10th kid. Due to his debts, lifestyle and previous divorce payments he needs to get back to his multi million pound earns outside of politics.... Worth a few quid on him quiting as PM in the new year, unless the Torys bin him for Rishi Sunak


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> Can you guys please wait a few years to explode so that the South can get their shit together before we have to join up with them?


Way this government are running things that will happen long with Scotland independence. Just be Little England still banging on about sovereignty and taking back control of our laws and borders


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Local jobs for local people.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Local jobs for local people.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Multi post


----------



## zappatton2

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Local jobs for local people.


Always shop local!


----------



## StevenC

Cummings is going!


----------



## _MonSTeR_

StevenC said:


> Cummings is going!



Man destroys country and rides off into the sunset...

He'll be back in Episode IX though...


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Man destroys country and rides off into the sunset...
> 
> He'll be back in Episode IX though...


Can the whole country tweet #Leave at him?


----------



## Louis Cypher

Load of self confessed Brexit supporting columnists and commentators on TV today all destroying Cummings and Boris this morning, claiming they both need to go. This time last year these same people were proclaiming Cummings and Boris as the new messiahs. The irony also that the rumors are this unelected bureaucrat/advisor is being being forced out by the unelected girlfriend of the PM #Leave #TakeBackControl


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Load of self confessed Brexit supporting columnists and commentators on TV today all destroying Cummings and Boris this morning, claiming they both need to go. This time last year these same people were proclaiming Cummings and Boris as the new messiahs. The irony also that the rumors are this unelected bureaucrat/advisor is being being forced out by the unelected girlfriend of the PM #Leave #TakeBackControl


I've never seen a group more fond of No True Scotsman than Brexiteers backstabbing the next in line.


----------



## Louis Cypher

BBC News - Cummings to leave No 10 with immediate effect
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54938050

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...s-dominic-cummings-actually-achieved-in-no-10

For a self proclaimed Genius, he really has achieved sweet fa while he's been in charge. Apart from his three word meaningless slogans, he is good at those


----------



## _MonSTeR_

His main legacy will be accelerating Britain's fall from the world stage by orchestrating the "Vote Leave" campaign. Within a few years he'll be forgotten by the public but still earning 6 or 7 figures at some right wing policy thinktank.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> His main legacy will be accelerating Britain's fall from the world stage by orchestrating the "Vote Leave" campaign. Within a few years he'll be forgotten by the public but still earning 6 or 7 figures at some right wing policy thinktank.



Wait, what country are we talking about again?


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54956076
Covid 19: Boris Johnson feeling 'great' as self-isolation begins

So Boris is now self isolating for not following his own Gov guidelines when he met an MP last week who has since tested positive for Covid LOL! Cant make it up! 
But just at the point where the Brexit talks are at their most critical stage, conveniently 3 of the 4 main architects of the Brexit vote (Boris, Cummings and Lee Cain) are now unavailable to be directly involved, Boris basically has called in sick at one of the most crucial times for this country's future


----------



## _MonSTeR_

And there’s Nigel Farage who was instrumental in shouting from the sidelines who, whilst surely available to take part, has never really had the remit to do so anyway...


----------



## nightflameauto

Man alive. If someone were to hand the script for the UK and the USA in 2020 to someone in 2010, they'd be laughed out of the room for writing such utter dreck. It's like we're trying to one-up each other on how farcical we can be.

Condolences to our friends across the pond. Looks like we're all facing a whole lot of "gonna get worse before it gets better."


----------



## Drew

So, would anyone here disagree with me if I said Boris Johnson was TRYING to fail to negotiate a deal before the Brexit deadline?


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> So, would anyone here disagree with me if I said Boris Johnson was TRYING to fail to negotiate a deal before the Brexit deadline?


Only on the basis that he isn't trying to negotiate at all.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> Only on the basis that he isn't trying to negotiate at all.


I accept your amendment.  

Not sure what the legality of his position is, since parliament has specifically forbidden him to leave the EU without a deal, so I'd think sabotaging negotiations would set up a little bit of a constitutional crisis, where the EU has no reason NOT to recognize the UK as having left, but the UK can't leave without a deal, without violating parliamentary law. 

This honestly all sounds like the sort of thing only a Brit could cook up, frankly. Pure PG Wodehouse or Douglas Adams.


----------



## nightflameauto

Drew said:


> I accept your amendment.
> 
> Not sure what the legality of his position is, since parliament has specifically forbidden him to leave the EU without a deal, so I'd think sabotaging negotiations would set up a little bit of a constitutional crisis, where the EU has no reason NOT to recognize the UK as having left, but the UK can't leave without a deal, without violating parliamentary law.
> 
> This honestly all sounds like the sort of thing only a Brit could cook up, frankly. Pure PG Wodehouse or Douglas Adams.


Honestly, most days I feel like Douglas Adams got drafted to write the script for 2020, then decided to go on a cocaine and alcohol fueled hate-fest in the process of doing so. Some of the shit we see happening, whether it be Brexit or right here at home in the States, it all seems like the rantings of a once comedic genius trying to get out all their anger and frustration.

Don't even get me started on the goings on in Brazil and the Ukraine. The world has literally become a parody of itself. A sad, angry, bitter parody.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> I accept your amendment.
> 
> Not sure what the legality of his position is, since parliament has specifically forbidden him to leave the EU without a deal, so I'd think sabotaging negotiations would set up a little bit of a constitutional crisis, where the EU has no reason NOT to recognize the UK as having left, but the UK can't leave without a deal, without violating parliamentary law.
> 
> This honestly all sounds like the sort of thing only a Brit could cook up, frankly. Pure PG Wodehouse or Douglas Adams.


The past 4 years have been a constitutional crisis for the UK. First we at least had May who seemed to want to try and not break the country but still do Brexit, and now we've got Boris who doesn't care about anything.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> ..and now we've got Boris who doesn't care about anything.


He doesn't care about anything, you say? 












....that's actually a little close to home.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

This week I have helped several U.K. companies move their operations overseas, typically to Germany or to Ireland.

#takingbackcontrol


----------



## Lozek

Consideration point: Crashing out with no deal and devaluing the pound is worth a hell of a lot, if you have global interests and large amounts of foreign currency offshore. Why would Johnson try to make this work for the man in the street, when well placed people can profit? I suspect we're going to become a new Caribbean island fairly shortly, large amounts of cash passing through, not much of it reaching the locals 

I'm currently involved in changing corporate finance systems in relation to Northern Ireland's new found 'Schrodinger's Tax' position. Glorious.


----------



## Drew

FWIW, I'm hearing semi-insider speculation that there has been some sort of a compromise on the matter of aligning the UK's and EU's regulatory regimes, post-Brexit - the UK will be forbidden from weakening _existing_ regulations to gain a competitive advantage over the EU, but seemingly has won concessions on having to adopt _future_ regulations to remain a trading partner. 

I'd say it's too early to say for sure, but, I mean, Brexit happens in 15 days, so...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

To quote BJ again...

"there is no plan for "no deal" because we're going to get a GREAT deal!"...

15 days and counting...


----------



## Andromalia

It's over. It's now too late to even sign something and have the EU parliament approve it before the next year.
Talks can continue after that, but the situation on january 1st will be that of a no deal, meaning, tariffs galore.... if brits can even cross, because with that "new COVID strain" thing, the border to the UK is now closed for at least 48 hours and I have a feeling it's going to get extended.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Yep, we’re done. The fat lady is singing, but don’t worry fellow brits, leave means leave and we’re taking back control and all that.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Personally I have loved the fact that take back control of our laws, borders and sovereignty idiots have been outraged that EU countries especially France have literally taken control of their boarders to close them to the UK haha. All the right wing idiots have been saying its revenge for us leaving, its all UK truckers being stopped (even though the vast majority are actually EU hauliers desperate to get home for Xmas) all coz English exceptionalism means we can do these sorts of things to pesky foreigners like ban them for coming to the UK but Godforbid they do the same to us to prevent spread of a new viralant strain of covid.... thats before we start in the fcuk up that is the government's handling of Christmas lockdowns! The UK is a total skip fire under this government and Boris


----------



## Drew

So, you MIGHT have a deal, after a compromise on fishing quotas, but now there's some last second squabbling over which species can be fished at which rates. This is the most British thing ever.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Scotland production of seed potatoes is not included in the deal so thats £112m a yr industry screwed over in the part of the UK that voted overwhelming to remain in the EU and is moving closer and closer to independence. This deal could push them over the edge


----------



## thraxil

https://www.nme.com/news/music/petition-launched-secure-visa-free-touring-bands-brexit-deal-2845981

Oh look, now UK bands have to get work visas to tour in the EU.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Just like everyone else now has to if they wanna work in the EU, but you know.... Yah! to the loss of our Freedom of Movement!! Im sure the vast majority of the so called red wall brexit supporters and the casually racist baby boomers will convince themselves that the loss of their own freedom to live, work or retire in 27 other countries is a price worth paying to pretend Brexit will keep foreigners as well as all the black and brown people out of the UK


----------



## Louis Cypher

NSFW due to some fruity but honest language


----------



## Lozek

Drew said:


> So, you MIGHT have a deal, after a compromise on fishing quotas, but now there's some last second squabbling over which species can be fished at which rates. This is the most British thing ever.



Good to see we've negotiated hard for a £240m a year fishing industry, but completely screwed the live music industry worth £1bn (of £5bn overall music industry)


----------



## possumkiller




----------



## Drew

Lozek said:


> Good to see we've negotiated hard for a £240m a year fishing industry, but completely screwed the live music industry worth £1bn (of £5bn overall music industry)


I mean, they also completely ignored the financial industry in this agreement, didnt they? Which, considering London was one of the global financial hubs, is _truly_ mind-bending.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> I mean, they also completely ignored the financial industry in this agreement, didnt they? Which, considering London was one of the global financial hubs, is _truly_ mind-bending.


Brexit voters see London as Northern-Brussels, there's a direct train link and everything. If Brexiteers lost fishing rights because negotiations were focused on the London banking elite's interest, they wouldn't have seen the point.


----------



## fps

possumkiller said:


> View attachment 88695



Nah, sorry. Trump did this, and he bypassed most of the mainstream news to do it. Blaming Murdoch is old hat at this point for something like what just happened in the IS. It’s social media which has made this possible. Both “sides” (god I hate his term sides, we should all in a country be on the same side) in Britain are doing very nicely at creating mistrust and division. The rich and powerful sit back and laugh at the whole thing as their bank balances rise, as ever.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> Brexit voters see London as Northern-Brussels, there's a direct train link and everything. If Brexiteers lost fishing rights because negotiations were focused on the London banking elite's interest, they wouldn't have seen the point.


That may be true, but it'll gut the economy just as quick nonetheless.


----------



## StevenC

fps said:


> Nah, sorry. Trump did this, and he bypassed most of the mainstream news to do it. Blaming Murdoch is old hat at this point for something like what just happened in the IS. It’s social media which has made this possible. Both “sides” (god I hate his term sides, we should all in a country be on the same side) in Britain are doing very nicely at creating mistrust and division. The rich and powerful sit back and laugh at the whole thing as their bank balances rise, as ever.


L
O
L

Pay attention to what's going on the world please. Didn't you start a thread asking if guitars would be cheaper after Brexit and ignore all the people telling you from experience that it wouldn't?


Drew said:


> That may be true, but it'll gut the economy just as quick nonetheless.


Brexit has never been about the economy. It's been about racists who don't understand the how the world or Europe works. It's the same mentality that believes that making America great again can be a thing.

These people don't know what a "service economy" means. They think all the international banks in London are the enemy.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> L
> O
> L
> 
> Pay attention to what's going on the world please. Didn't you start a thread asking if guitars would be cheaper after Brexit and ignore all the people telling you from experience that it wouldn't?
> 
> Brexit has never been about the economy. It's been about racists who don't understand the how the world or Europe works. It's the same mentality that believes that making America great again can be a thing.
> 
> These people don't know what a "service economy" means. They think all the international banks in London are the enemy.


Oh, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree... It's just pretty fucking short sighted, the harm that this is about to do to the banking sector in London.


----------



## Lozek

StevenC said:


> Brexit has never been about the economy. It's been about racists who don't understand the how the world or Europe works. It's the same mentality that believes that making America great again can be a thing.
> 
> These people don't know what a "service economy" means. They think all the international banks in London are the enemy.



The public may not have voted for it on economic terms, that doesn't mean it didn't become economic for the people implementing it.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Lozek said:


> The public may not have voted for it on economic terms, that doesn't mean it didn't become economic for the people implementing it.



Totally agree. This article shows what really lay under the brexit BS with regards to the new economic situation of taking back control

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/eu-consumer-worker-protections-brexit-b1783331.html

Daniel Hannan has been a huge supporter of the UK getting out of the EU since he was 19 (?!?!) and his comments in this article in regards to scrapping the EU rules for consumer and workers rights, ending the bans on dangerous chemicals that cause health issues for those working with them, stopping the green policy/regulations for scrapping old cars, and some of the real economic reasons for Brexit, he wants the removal of the regulations brought in on hedge funds and private equity trading following the 2008 financial crash and some of the "...legal framework to harmonise regulation of securities markets and trading venues" sum up some of what was really at stake in 2016 with the referendum.Low Regulation & Low Taxation for big business and the wealthy 1%

As a work mate said when he posted this article, "This should surprise no body - now we've "taken back control" we're free to truly crush the poor in the name of profits."


----------



## diagrammatiks

fps said:


> Nah, sorry. Trump did this, and he bypassed most of the mainstream news to do it. Blaming Murdoch is old hat at this point for something like what just happened in the IS. It’s social media which has made this possible. Both “sides” (god I hate his term sides, we should all in a country be on the same side) in Britain are doing very nicely at creating mistrust and division. The rich and powerful sit back and laugh at the whole thing as their bank balances rise, as ever.



i mean you're all on one side getting fucked right now and anyone with half a brain could have seen the result a million miles off.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Louis Cypher said:


> As a work mate said when he posted this article, "This should surprise no body - now we've "taken back control" we're free to truly crush the poor in the name of profits."



And best of all, it was those who will be crushed most that voted most enthusiastically for it...

As soon as the U.K. voted leave, multi-millionaire arch-brexiteer Jacob Rees Mogg moved his businesses to Ireland...


----------



## Louis Cypher

_MonSTeR_ said:


> And best of all, it was those who will be crushed most that voted most enthusiastically for it...
> 
> As soon as the U.K. voted leave, multi-millionaire arch-brexiteer Jacob Rees Mogg moved his businesses to Ireland...


I know and yet those gaslighted in to beleiving this skipfire of an ideology still defend him and those like him, they still see nothing wrong and defend people like Pro Brexit hardliner *BILLIONAIRES* such as INEOS' *SIR* Jim Ratcliffe and *SIR* James Dyson banging on about how good it will be for UK business and its people, since the vote Dyson has moved operations to Singapore and Ratcliffe promise of keeping the building of the Land Rover Defender (aka the Ineos Grenadier) in the UK and it being built in Wales, he has since decided to move that to...... France! After moving Ineos HQ to Switzland to avoid UK taxes and moving himself personally, after 2016, to international tax haven Monaco to "...to insulate his $26.5 billion fortune"

https://www.insidehook.com/article/vehicles/false-hope-brexit-jim-ratcliffe-defender
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/22/dyson-to-move-company-hq-to-singapore


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Yeah now that they will build the Ineos Grenadier in France it will be called, Le Ineos Grenadier...

And you’ll also be able to get...

Le Ineos Grenadier with Cheese.

Because of the metric system...


----------



## StevenC

And Rees Mogg has been saying he doesn't think Brexit will pay off for 50 years.

What's the damn point of the whole thing if none of the people voting will ever see the benefit? The youngest people who voted will have retired by then if current retirement age holds. I'm not anticipating my late 70s will be my heyday.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

StevenC said:


> And Rees Mogg has been saying he doesn't think Brexit will pay off for 50 years.
> 
> What's the damn point of the whole thing if none of the people voting will ever see the benefit? The youngest people who voted will have retired by then if current retirement age holds. I'm not anticipating my late 70s will be my heyday.



In intending on living until I’m 250 or so, so I’m thinking when im in my 90s, I’ll be in my prime


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> In intending on living until I’m 250 or so, so I’m thinking when im in my 90s, I’ll be in my prime


I slipped on ice last night and had a very real reminder how different 26 is from 16, though I'll cop to being a less than perfectly healthy 26.


----------



## jaxadam

StevenC said:


> I slipped on ice last night and had a very real reminder how different 26 is from 16, though I'll cop to being a less than perfectly healthy 26.



Just try getting out of bed in the morning at 42.


----------



## StevenC

jaxadam said:


> Just try getting out of bed in the morning at 42.


Dude, I've got 17 screws in my spine and a bad hip already. I'm hoping the beds of 2037 will do the getting up for me.


----------



## jaxadam

StevenC said:


> Dude, I've got 17 screws in my spine and a bad hip already. I'm hoping the beds of 2037 will do the getting up for me.



Holy motherfuckin macaroni... what happened to you?

I’m telling you though... and this is no shit, over the past few years I’ve thrown my back out making the bed and changing a light bulb in the oven.


----------



## StevenC

jaxadam said:


> Holy motherfuckin macaroni... what happened to you?
> 
> I’m telling you though... and this is no shit, over the past few years I’ve thrown my back out making the bed and changing a light bulb in the oven.


Scoliosis. Big old S-curve in my spine with 2 operations to fix it back in 2019. 17 screws, 2 titanium rods the length of my back and a scar that would make Captain Quint blush. It's mostly better now but cold weather doesn't work for me.

The one upside is I have a very hard time hurting my back by overextending because I just can't twist or stretch anymore to get in an awkward position.


----------



## jaxadam

StevenC said:


> Scoliosis. Big old S-curve in my spine with 2 operations to fix it back in 2019. 17 screws, 2 titanium rods the length of my back and a scar that would make Captain Quint blush. It's mostly better now but cold weather doesn't work for me.
> 
> The one upside is I have a very hard time hurting my back by overextending because I just can't twist or stretch anymore to get in an awkward position.



Wow man, that’s pretty tough. I know a few people who have dealt with similar. I figured it was either that or a gnarly dirt bike crash casing a triple.


----------



## Louis Cypher

*Exports to EU plunge by £5.6bn in first month since Brexit
Fall of 40.7% comes as UK economy in January shrinks by most since first wave of Covid pandemic*
https://www.theguardian.com/busines...plunge-in-first-month-since-brexit-uk-economy

*Massive drop in UK trade shows extent of Boris Johnson's Brexit own goal
Analysis: trade could be a drag on recovery for years to come rather than the high-octane propellent the government promised*
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-brexit-self-harm-economic-debacle-trade-drop

But along with the Royal racisim story now being more about Piers Morgan being "cancelled", this is the other big news in the UK papers

*Kew Gardens is growing woke! Famed attraction will have 'decolonised' labelling showing visitors how plants played a part in the slave trade*
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...e-Famed-attraction-decolonised-labelling.html


Daily Mail.com said:


> .....the ‘woke’ move caused anger as Tory MP Sir John Hayes said he would inquire about the cost to the taxpayer for the publicly-funded gardens. Sir John, of the parliamentary Common Sense group, told the Mail: ‘This is preposterous posturing by people who are so out of touch with the sentiment of patriotic Britain. ‘They would be better off spending the rest of their days in a potting shed. This is typically bourgeois liberal arrogance which is ill-fitting of people that get public funding.’
> 
> ".....The sugar cane display at the 326-acre Royal Botanic Gardens – a world heritage site in south-west London – will be the first to be reworded. It was the main crop produced on Caribbean plantations – then part of British colonies – during the 18th and 19th century. UK slave traders supplied Africans to the plantations, with the profits and product going back to the Empire."


*RAAAAA!!! TOO MUCH HISTORY AND TOO MANY FACTS IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH WHAT PATRIOTIC BRITS WANT FROM THEIR HISTORICAL PLACES OF INTEREST! *LOL!!


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> But along with the Royal racisim story now being more about Piers Morgan being "cancelled", this is the other big news in the UK papers
> 
> *Kew Gardens is growing woke! Famed attraction will have 'decolonised' labelling showing visitors how plants played a part in the slave trade*


It's almost, and hear me out, like Conservative Brits have followed their American counterparts on their well-worn tactic of manufacturing a culture war controversy to distract from news they don't want to talk about. _Weird._

While we have most networks running stories about some of the revelations about the Jan. 6th insurgency at the capital and how the intelligence assesment was no, there were no covert false flag antifa operations responsible for the violence, and there was certainly evidence of _some_ coordination with at least _some_ staff in the White House, Fox is busy talking about Dr. Seuss getting "cancelled" because his estate decided maybe it wasn't really cool to publish books depicting Africans as looking like monkeys, and decided to voluntarily retire this one:


----------



## ImNotAhab

How long until the people at one of the thrash papers find a way to blame Markle for Prince Philip's death? Im giving it 24 hours.


----------



## Drew

ImNotAhab said:


> How long until the people at one of the thrash papers find a way to blame Markle for Prince Philip's death? Im giving it 24 hours.


That interview really just broke his heart, you see.


----------



## StevenC

Shout out to all the dumbasses here rioting over Brexit fallout that they voted for.


----------



## r33per

I know battleships are obsolete etc. but man, five and bit full broadsides of 15" guns would have been some way the send off the Lord High Admiral.

Fair winds and following seas, Prince.


----------



## StevenC

r33per said:


> I know battleships are obsolete etc. but man, five and bit full broadsides of 15" guns would have been some way the send off the Lord High Admiral.
> 
> Fair winds and following seas, Prince.


Based on the current navy, even if we had the battleships we definitely wouldn't have guns for them.


----------



## Chiba666

Whilst the 4.5 inch guns on the 45s and 23s are not broadside worthy they put down an bloody awesome rate of fire


----------



## thraxil

ImNotAhab said:


> How long until the people at one of the thrash papers find a way to blame Markle for Prince Philip's death? Im giving it 24 hours.



I haven't looked at the papers, but Fox News is on it...


----------



## Louis Cypher

Not surprised Fox beat the Express and the Mail over here to being the first to blame Megan as right wing and racist as they both are both are reverential of the royals enough to hold fire till after the funeral


----------



## Drew

So someone with an accent explain to me what this Greensill scandal is, and why I should care.


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56733456
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/15/what-did-greensill-capital-actually-do

In a sentence, the former PM of the UK tried to use his former influence and personal relationships with current high ranking members fo the Goverment to lobby for Greensill to obtain them funds and contracts for a firm he is a major share holder in that would have meant a possible £60m payday for him personally if Greensill had stayed afloat and won those contracts/monies, after Greensill had already been declined by civil service proceedures.

Obviously its more complicated than that but thats it in a nutshell. Its on top of all the other billions paid out to firms during covid for PPE for example where they were fast tracked without goign out to tender, when those firms have no previous experience of making PPE equipment but just so happen to have close links to goverment ministers, be it family or close friends


----------



## Demiurge

Louis Cypher said:


> In a sentence, the former PM of the UK tried to use his former influence and personal relationships with current high ranking members fo the Goverment to lobby for Greensill to obtain them funds and contracts for a firm he is a major share holder in that would have meant a possible £60m payday for him personally if Greensill had stayed afloat and won those contracts/monies, after Greensill had already been declined by civil service proceedures.



That's the kind of self-dealing corruption that in Washington, D.C., is called "Tuesday".


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Power corrupts and absolute power... let me introduce you to a friend of mine, he happens to own a company that just might be able to...


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-56733456
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/15/what-did-greensill-capital-actually-do
> 
> In a sentence, the former PM of the UK tried to use his former influence and personal relationships with current high ranking members fo the Goverment to lobby for Greensill to obtain them funds and contracts for a firm he is a major share holder in that would have meant a possible £60m payday for him personally if Greensill had stayed afloat and won those contracts/monies, after Greensill had already been declined by civil service proceedures.
> 
> Obviously its more complicated than that but thats it in a nutshell. Its on top of all the other billions paid out to firms during covid for PPE for example where they were fast tracked without goign out to tender, when those firms have no previous experience of making PPE equipment but just so happen to have close links to goverment ministers, be it family or close friends


Thanks. Cameron, right, the same twit who thought it would be a good idea to hold a binding referendum on Brexit so he didn't have to publicly take a side?


----------



## Louis Cypher

Drew said:


> Thanks. Cameron, right, the same twit who thought it would be a good idea to hold a binding referendum on Brexit so he didn't have to publicly take a side?


Yep thats him, and the same twat who the day of the result quit and left everyone else who fought to remain in the EU in his government to try to clean up his enormous bloody great cock up even tho he promised before the referendum he would stay and see through any result. Now as a result, Ireland is burning again, Scotland are very close to independence, Wales are talking of independence, covid on top of the crap Brexit deal Boris signed is crippling the country but Cameron decided that trying to use tax payers money to create a possible £60m payday for himself was still perfectly OK under the circumstances


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> Yep thats him, and the same twat who the day of the result quit and left everyone else who fought to remain in the EU in his government to try to clean up his enormous bloody great cock up even tho he promised before the referendum he would stay and see through any result. Now as a result, Ireland is burning again, Scotland are very close to independence, Wales are talking of independence, covid on top of the crap Brexit deal Boris signed is crippling the country but Cameron decided that trying to use tax payers money to create a possible £60m payday for himself was still perfectly OK under the circumstances


Yeah, I mean, my first take-away once it became clear that Brexit was going to happen (aside from go get drunk with a chick I knew at the time and get laid, lol) was that this seemed fairly likely to cause a split with Scotland and, otentially, Ireland, and spell the end of the UK as we know it, because both countries had clear remain majorities and were getting fucked. 

Also, use of "twit" appropriate there? As an American I never quite know.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Drew said:


> Also, use of "twit" appropriate there? As an American I never quite know.



Definitely, a very appropriate use of twit LOL!


----------



## Louis Cypher




----------



## Anquished

Louis Cypher said:


>



Painfully accurate.


----------



## StevenC

Just in case anyone is curious, Edwin Poots is a psycopath.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Says all you need to know in that he is a young earth creationist who denies Darwins theory of evolution. Dinosaur bones are really a test from God kinda thing. Would be funny if he hadn't just become First Minister of Northern Ireland by replacing Foster as DUP leader.


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Says all you need to know in that he is a young earth creationist who denies Darwins theory of evolution. Dinosaur bones are really a test from God kinda thing. Would be funny if he hadn't just become First Minister of Northern Ireland by replacing Foster as DUP leader.


A lot of Nationalists are happy today. This whacko could easily spell the end of the Union once people in England start to get an idea of what they're dealing with.


----------



## StevenC




----------



## Louis Cypher

BBC News - Key points: Dominic Cummings evidence
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57254915

Just unbelievable and Johnsons response during PMQs was basically ignore the past, vaccines, brexit deals blah blah something in Latin. 

Doubt for one second any of this will land with any of the hard-core Boris base, tabloids will back Boris and he and this government will get away with one of the worst covid responses and death tolls in the world


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Louis Cypher said:


> BBC News - Key points: Dominic Cummings evidence
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-57254915
> 
> Just unbelievable and Johnsons response during PMQs was basically ignore the past, vaccines, brexit deals blah blah something in Latin.
> 
> Doubt for one second any of this will land with any of the hard-core Boris base, tabloids will back Boris and he and this government will get away with one of the worst covid responses and death tolls in the world



Cummings could have a video on his phone of Boris Johnson eating live kittens whilst hunting little old grannies for sport but as long as BoJo was wearing his Union Jack underpants and driving a London bus, the "press" would hail him as a national hero and blame Europe.


----------



## Louis Cypher

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Cummings could have a video on his phone of Boris Johnson eating live kittens whilst hunting little old grannies for sport but as long as BoJo was wearing his Union Jack underpants and driving a London bus, the "press" would hail him as a national hero and blame Europe.


LOL!!! Brilliant! Lol! 
Also, sadly true


----------



## Andromalia

Drew said:


> Thanks. Cameron, right, the same twit who thought it would be a good idea to hold a binding referendum on Brexit so he didn't have to publicly take a side?


Well, it *was* a good idea. I shudder at the thought of having had to come up with a Covid relief plan with the UK still having voting rights in the EU.


----------



## Louis Cypher

"England 2021. Divided, belligerent, set against itself"
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2021/jun/06/england-fans-booing-taking-knee-euro-2020
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ott-england-games-in-row-over-taking-the-knee

So same day as a memorial to the D-Day Normandy landings is unveiled and the last surviving soldier who took part in the liberation of the Nazi death camp at Auschwitz in 1945 dies.... the country that so many in it, esp the right wing press, love to claim defeated facism, Racism and hate by beating the Nazi's did the following: England football fans boo'ed their own players before their friendly even started for taking the knee against racisim whilst everyone of the black players on that pitch daily receives uncontrolled levels of racist abuse, the usual w$nkers in the English press are lining up to rip in to Harry and Megan about their new baby and call the English football players "...millionaire woke babies protesting inequality on £200,000 a week", MP's are up in arms that an England cricketer has been suspended for historic racist & sexist tweets whilst a vote in parliment is due to push through a 42% budget cut to UK foreign aid and a George Floyd/BLM supporting TV performance by a famous UK black dance troop is denounced for winning the Must See Moment award because its too "Woke", even tho in accepting the award they decribed the levels of abuse they have and do receive since the performance..... I could list a load more but whats the point. This country, as in England, is a fcuking disgrace and I cant see any end to this any time soon

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...ewers-blast-ceremony-woke-renamed-Waftas.html


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> Well, it *was* a good idea. I shudder at the thought of having had to come up with a Covid relief plan with the UK still having voting rights in the EU.



As much as I detest the British government at the moment , the UK does have a higher proportion of its population vaccinated than any other country in Europe, so at least someone here has been doing something right


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> As much as I detest the British government at the moment , the UK does have a higher proportion of its population vaccinated than any other country in Europe, so at least someone here has been doing something right


While someone has been doing something, I'm the most pro vaccination person in the planet and very glad to have been vaccinated; it's hard to argue that vaccine hoarding is _right_ when maybe the whole world could have chilled at home for a couple months longer to achieve a more equitable vaccination program and solve the actual problem instead of hoping just to offload it from our own shores.


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> While someone has been doing something, I'm the most pro vaccination person in the planet and very glad to have been vaccinated; it's hard to argue that vaccine hoarding is _right_ when maybe the whole world could have chilled at home for a couple months longer to achieve a more equitable vaccination program and solve the actual problem instead of hoping just to offload it from our own shores.



Regarding the "West" vaccination hoarding
https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/presscentre/featurestories/2021/march/20210310_covid19-vaccines
"Many of these rich nations, including the US, UK and EU, are blocking a proposal by over 100 developing countries to be discussed at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) today, which would override the monopolies held by pharmaceutical companies and allow an urgently needed scale up in the production of safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines to ensure poorer countries get access to the doses they desperately need." But Boris says its Ok to help out elsewhere by 2022......


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Regarding the "West" vaccination hoarding
> https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/presscentre/featurestories/2021/march/20210310_covid19-vaccines
> "Many of these rich nations, including the US, UK and EU, are blocking a proposal by over 100 developing countries to be discussed at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) today, which would override the monopolies held by pharmaceutical companies and allow an urgently needed scale up in the production of safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines to ensure poorer countries get access to the doses they desperately need." But Boris says its Ok for help out elsewhere by 2022......


Just so stupid. Vaccine inequality is how we will end up with a vaccine resistant variant.


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> Just so stupid. Vaccine inequality is how we will end up with a vaccine resistant variant.


Found this vaccine world map of when its predicted countries will be fully vaccinated, fact that the vast majority of the middle and low income countries arent expected to be fully vaccinated until 2023(?!?!) is insane. Fat lot of good the UK being fully vaccinated if we then have to wait up to 2 more years for the remaing 80% of the rest of the world to be


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Found this vaccine world map of when its predicted countries will be fully vaccinated, fact that the vast majority of the middle and low income countries arent expected to be fully vaccinated until 2023(?!?!) is insane. Fat lot of good the UK being fully vaccinated if we then have to wait up to 2 more years for the remaing 80% of the rest of the world to be


Bear in my before covid, predictions for worldwide polio eradication were 2023. And we've had a vaccine for that for 70 years. Getting vaccines to, in particular, India and Africa is probably the most important global concern right now, but nobody is treating it that way.


----------



## StevenC

Also don't forget the difference in publicity the government has had when there was a UK variant compared to this current Indian variant.


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> Bear in my before covid, predictions for worldwide polio eradication were 2023. And we've had a vaccine for that for 70 years. Getting vaccines to, in particular, India and Africa is probably the most important global concern right now, but nobody is treating it that way.


Its mental that the so called "Indian" variant strain is what could be ballsing up the Tory's plans for "Freedom Day" as the fcuking press keep inciting it as, and all the reports from India on the death toll, infection rate and selfishly its affect on vaccine supplies to the UK. None of that has had any affect on pushing to get vaccines out there as quick as possible, mean time as I said in the earlier post the UK is cutting its foreign aid bill promise by nearly half!?!! When those counties helped by that money need it most! just craziness.



StevenC said:


> Also don't forget the difference in publicity the government has had when there was a UK variant compared to this current Indian variant.


 LOL! Funny the Gov hated it being called the Kent or even UK variant but the "Indian" variant is perfectly Ok! LOL! officially isnt the new variant called the Delta variant? Not that you will hear any Gov minister call it that! haha
Depressingly I am awaiting on the first news story of some white racist twat attacking someone who looks Indian and saying he or she did so coz "they" have brought this to our country and meant "Freedom Day" has been cancelled


----------



## _MonSTeR_

StevenC said:


> While someone has been doing something, I'm the most pro vaccination person in the planet and very glad to have been vaccinated; it's hard to argue that vaccine hoarding is _right_ when maybe the whole world could have chilled at home for a couple months longer to achieve a more equitable vaccination program and solve the actual problem instead of hoping just to offload it from our own shores.



If you’ve been able to be vaccinated and you’re glad to be vaccinated then the UK has done _something_ right. Like it has done for a lot of its population.

It might not have always had the right idea and it might not be 100% correct, but like you I’m glad to have been vaccinated and appreciative of the fact that I got the jab a lot sooner than many of my friends and colleagues in mainland Europe.


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> If you’ve been able to be vaccinated and you’re glad to be vaccinated then the UK has done _something_ right. Like it has done for a lot of its population.
> 
> It might not have always had the right idea and it might not be 100% correct, but like you I’m glad to have been vaccinated and appreciative of the fact that I got the jab a lot sooner than many of my friends and colleagues in mainland Europe.


OK, the one aspect of the pandemic the government has done well is securing vaccines for the population. _Done well.
_
There has been a global failing in distributing vaccines to where they need to go in favour of restarting local economies.

I can be glad to be vaccinated and relieved that important vulnerable people in my life are vaccinated, while also appreciating most of us could have stayed in for a few more months to help other people in need. This is particularly relevant when the government is cutting foreign aid and just compounds their shortsightedness and blatant self-perpetuation/self-interest over actually solving the problem at hand.


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tory-mp-england-football-players-taking-the-knee-nazi-salute/

"Brendan Clarke-Smith labelled the gesture "habitual tokenism" and said he was "highly critical" of the team's decision to show solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement against racism. He said the group's aims, which he claims include "crushing capitalism, defunding the police, destroying the nuclear family and attacking Israel", go beyond an anti-racist message and reminds him of the fascist dictatorships which emerged in 20th-century Europe - including Nazi Germany." 

Someone is doing all he can to get in to the cabinet during the next reshuffle


----------



## Andromalia

_MonSTeR_ said:


> As much as I detest the British government at the moment , the UK does have a higher proportion of its population vaccinated than any other country in Europe, so at least someone here has been doing something right


They actually don't: they have the best rate of people having received 1 dose, because they wanted to use it as propaganda, instead of using the available doses for a second injection of their vulnerable citizens. Result: the highest death rate in europe. I don't know if they did something right, but vaccination certainly wasn't one of those things.
I'm myself scheduled for my second Pfizer injection next sunday, and when I got the first, I was told in very much detail not to consider myself vaccinated before I get the second one, to continue using security and sanitary measures etc.

TLDR: you're not vaccinated with one dose, especially not with the AZ vaccine which has the lowest efficiency of all.


----------



## thraxil

Andromalia said:


> They actually don't: they have the best rate of people having received 1 dose, because they wanted to use it as propaganda, instead of using the available doses for a second injection of their vulnerable citizens. Result: the highest death rate in europe. I don't know if they did something right, but vaccination certainly wasn't one of those things.



It pains me to defend the UK government in any way, shape or form, but:

* yes, they prioritized getting out the first dose, but it is *also* true that they still have a higher percentage fully vaccinated than any other country in the EU with the exceptions of Gibraltar, San Marino, and Malta. And if those aren't pretty much the definition of "exceptions"....
* the death rate in the UK is high, but the majority of that was before vaccines started rolling out or very early in the vaccine rollout, before very many people had it. It's a distortion to say that the high death rate is the "result" of the vaccine policy.
* AZ has a relatively low efficacy compared to other vaccines, but there's a big difference between vaccine efficacy and effectiveness, and there is no indication that it is any less effective at reducing death and hospitalization (the measured efficacy of a vaccine has a lot more to do with how trials were conducted and all the different vaccines ran their trials differently; you can't just compare the numbers side by side and expect to interpret them that way without also looking at the details of the trials).


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> They actually don't: they have the best rate of people having received 1 dose, because they wanted to use it as propaganda, instead of using the available doses for a second injection of their vulnerable citizens. Result: the highest death rate in europe. I don't know if they did something right, but vaccination certainly wasn't one of those things.
> I'm myself scheduled for my second Pfizer injection next sunday, and when I got the first, I was told in very much detail not to consider myself vaccinated before I get the second one, to continue using security and sanitary measures etc.
> 
> TLDR: you're not vaccinated with one dose, especially not with the AZ vaccine which has the lowest efficiency of all.



You’re more vaccinated with one dose than with no dose, especially the Pfizer one. One of Pfizer’s own papers puts the efficacy at 52.4% after shot 1 whilst further calculations shown in an easily found letter to the editor in the NEJM from Skowronski and De Serres recalculated the numbers to show mounting efficacy as time goes on to 92.6% after 14 days since administration of the first dose only increasing to 94.8% 7 days after dose 2.

I know any scientist can play god with the statistics, and the UK definitely had some literally bonkers ideas about ‘keep calm and carry on’ but I wholeheartedly think that the UK vaccine programme has been a fantastic success. We’ve got at least as high a percentage of people fully vaccinated as any other European nation and overall a higher percentage (at least one dose) than any other European nation.


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/tory-mp-england-football-players-taking-the-knee-nazi-salute/
> 
> "Brendan Clarke-Smith labelled the gesture "habitual tokenism" and said he was "highly critical" of the team's decision to show solidarity with the Black Lives Matter movement against racism. He said the group's aims, which he claims include "crushing capitalism, defunding the police, destroying the nuclear family and attacking Israel", go beyond an anti-racist message and reminds him of the fascist dictatorships which emerged in 20th-century Europe - including Nazi Germany."
> 
> Someone is doing all he can to get in to the cabinet during the next reshuffle


He could get a good job for BLM PR since this MP thing doesn't seem to be working out.


----------



## Louis Cypher

More Tory culture war BS being inflammed by the usual right wing tabloids. Get angry about this next outrage of Left Quasi Marxist Anti Englishness at its worst.....
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...-votes-remove-portrait-Queen-common-room.html

Whilst ironically the usual Tory Flag and Statue defenders have been strangely silent about the fact football fans vandalised the suppossed holy of holy's, the Winston Churchill statue in Parliment Sq.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/lon...ffiti-after-champions-league-win-b937993.html

Whilst in the meantime the Goverment is blaming the Brexit related issues on the NI protocol on the apparently cr*p deal that was signed at the end of 2020 and they didnt realise then the impact of that deal and the damage it would cause NI .... Even tho it was signed, trumpeted and celebrated as the UK's release from EU shackles and to freedom to chart its own course and then pushed through parliment by..... ohh wait... the same Goverment saying now it didn't realise the damage of that Brexit deal on Northern Ireland......

Lord Frost in the FT at the weekend:
"We expected to be able to operate it in a way which respected the sensitive politics in Northern Ireland — after all that was the point of making special arrangements in the first place... We underestimated the effect of the protocol on goods movements to Northern Ireland, with some suppliers in Great Britain simply not sending their products because of the time-consuming paperwork required" (Note: Brexit was meant to cut all the redtape and "paperwork" being in the EU caused)

Today, Gavin Barwell Theresa May’s chief of staff (& fully involved in the Brexit talks until the summer of 2019):
"I don’t think the EU is ever going to think that is credible. The EU negotiating team have obviously worked very closely with the British negotiating team under both governments. They know the quality of the civil servants involved in that work, and they know that British ministers would have been have been advised in detail on the implications of what they were signing up to. So I don’t think anyone who’s involved in the process is going to find it credible that the government signed up to something and didn’t understand what the consequences of that were."

And the Australian Gov is apparently due to walk away from the UK's Post Brexit flagship trade deal, that would completely shaft all UK farmers:
https://www.theguardian.com/austral...m-uk-free-trade-deal-over-agricultural-access

But ignore *ALL* that and get angry at students taking down a picture of the Queen from their common room......


----------



## Louis Cypher

Lord Frost last night on his meeting with Maroš Šefčovič, vice-president of the European Commission

"I hope this will be a productive forum where we can address shared challenges by working together in the spirit of mutual trust and cooperation.
First among these challenges is the damaging impact the protocol is having on the ground in Northern Ireland. Businesses in Great Britain are choosing not to sell their goods into Northern Ireland because of burdensome paperwork, medicine manufacturers are threatening to cut vital supplies, and chilled meats from British farmers destined for the Northern Ireland market are at risk of being banned entirely ...

Our overriding shared priority must be to protect the Belfast (Good Friday) agreement and the peace process. I look to the EU to show flexibility and engage with our proposals so that we can find solutions that enjoy the confidence of all communities. Further threats of legal action and trade retaliation from the EU won’t make life any easier for the shopper in Strabane who can’t buy their favourite product. Nor will it benefit the small business in Ballymena struggling to source produce from their supplier in Birmingham. What is needed is pragmatism and common sense solutions to resolve the issues as they are before us. This work is important. And it is ever more urgent."

"...the damaging impact the protocol is having on the ground in Northern Ireland." The thing that the UK came up with as a solution to the NI issue that the EU & NI didnt want or agree with in the Brexit treaty, the UK is now telling the EU its for them to fix the problems with the thing they didnt come up with or wanted in the first place because its conflciting with the Good Friday agreement which everyone said it would conflict with, but until now every Gov minister for flags and soverignty has been saying it never would and there are or would be no problems post Jan 1st 2021 because of it?!?!..... Brexit in a fcuking nutshell


----------



## StevenC

If only there was some other mechanism by which Northern Ireland could trade freely with both the UK and the RoI. Some way to make the people here feel both as Irish and as British as they want to feel without treading on anyone's toes.

For real, I've been seeing so many posters complaining about this bloody referendum in Unionist communities with almost no realisation that they were sold a joke. It'd be tragic if Unionism weren't such a lost cause at this point, but I do still feel for all the people mislead by it.


----------



## Louis Cypher

They were sold a dead pup with what they were promised for sure, no one in Westminster cared actually about NI, NI voted to remain anyway and the lies they were told from 2016 till now by successive Westminster based politicians are incredible. Once the DUP got in to bed with the Tory's that was enough. Sacrificing NI & Good Friday was worth it to get Brexit done. That poll of Tory membership in 2019 I think it was showed more than 2/3rds were happy to push NI (and Scotland for that matter) under the bus to get Brexit over the line. All the English have to brag about is the idea that no more immigrants or brown people are free to move here (which is what voting to leave was really all about) and blue passports. The Unionists have nothing to boast about for their support of Brexit.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Louis Cypher said:


> They were sold a dead pup with what they were promised for sure, no one in Westminster cared actually about NI, NI voted to remain anyway and the lies they were told from 2016 till now by successive Westminster based politicians are incredible. Once the DUP got in to bed with the Tory's that was enough. Sacrificing NI & Good Friday was worth it to get Brexit done. That poll of Tory membership in 2019 I think it was showed more than 2/3rds were happy to push NI (and Scotland for that matter) under the bus to get Brexit over the line. All the English have to brag about is the idea that no more immigrants or brown people are free to move here (which is what voting to leave was really all about) and blue passports. The Unionists have nothing to boast about for their support of Brexit.



Don’t forget that is you put “get Brexit done” in quote marks, it adds some more venom to it. I find it actually makes me feel a little lighter every time I type it with the quote marks of mockery 

The other thing I like to laugh at brexiteers for is like you said, their thoughts of ‘no more brown people’. Some of my neighbours are brown, and their family doesn’t originate from the EU... another of my neighbours is Romanian, and he’s not brown... what problem did the brexiteers actually think that they were fixing? Or is it just the fact that these folks don’t have union flag and bulldog tattoos...?


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> They were sold a dead pup with what they were promised for sure, no one in Westminster cared actually about NI, NI voted to remain anyway and the lies they were told from 2016 till now by successive Westminster based politicians are incredible. Once the DUP got in to bed with the Tory's that was enough. Sacrificing NI & Good Friday was worth it to get Brexit done. That poll of Tory membership in 2019 I think it was showed more than 2/3rds were happy to push NI (and Scotland for that matter) under the bus to get Brexit over the line. All the English have to brag about is the idea that no more immigrants or brown people are free to move here (which is what voting to leave was really all about) and blue passports. The Unionists have nothing to boast about for their support of Brexit.


I'll never forget the day after the referendum when Arlene was on all the news programmes telling us how Britain had voted for Brexit and that was that. Every presenter asked her about how Northern Ireland had voted to remain and she just didn't acknowledge it at all. 

They really really thought this would be the end to Irish Nationalism.


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> I'll never forget the day after the referendum when Arlene was on all the news programmes telling us how Britain had voted for Brexit and that was that. Every presenter asked her about how Northern Ireland had voted to remain and she just didn't acknowledge it at all.
> 
> They really really thought this would be the end to Irish Nationalism.



Irony being that Brexit and the DUP support for it at the expense of NI itself have prob fuelled Irish unification support and its eventual inevitability


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Irony being that Brexit and the DUP support for it at the expense of NI itself have prob fuelled Irish unification support and its eventual inevitability


You're telling me! Back in 2016 RoI was a shitty backwards ass place with shitty education and health care. So basically it was the same as the north but without education or health care.

But then they started changing all their draconian laws and looking better than us, meanwhile our Assembly took 3 years off and only reconvened to stop abortion and gay rights.

Let's look at this reasonably though. How would a united Ireland work exactly? Well, it'd likely work in much the same way as it does now, but we'd send people to Dublin instead of Westminster and England would still be footing a large chunk of the bill. We'd probably have our own education system and NHS like we've always done for at least a few decades until everything could be integrated, but there's no way the South would see the life we have and be satisfied continuing on in their neolib dystopia.

I'm basically from a Catholic background, but I have no strong nationalist ideals (because all nationalism is stupid). Subdivisions are pointless in 2021. I have always cared more about actual policy related outcomes more than where a border is drawn, and June 2016 is when I first considered Irish Unity as a good thing on balance.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Literally 6 months in to Brexit and the truth is being undermined and the narrative is being rewritten
Just one of many RW papers in the last few days rewriting the facts on the Trade Deal.....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...folly-unequal-northern-ireland-brexit-treaty/
Telegragh current view on the NI Protocol with the treansition period coming to an end in 3 weeks......
"The imperial EU is blind to the folly of its unequal Northern Ireland Brexit treaty
The protocol isn’t a just law. It was imposed on the UK by Brussels at the moment of our greatest weakness
Why don’t the European elites ever learn lessons from history? It should be obvious that the Northern Ireland Protocol, signed under duress by the UK, cannot last in its present state. The only questions are what replaces it, how quickly and whether it is enough to restore the province’s fragile balance and save the Good Friday Agreement. The idea that the EU will be able to keep the protocol alive by threatening Britain with a trade war merely confirms the scale of Brussels’s delusion...."

Could have sworn that according to Brexiteers and the Brexit papers from 2016 till Dec 2020 constantly told us all that the UK held all the cards and where the ones with the power in the negotiations??

The fcuking protocol was the UK's idea to replace the NI backstop that all the Brexiteers hated, even tho they were told that the protocol still wouldnt properly prevent the "Brexit Trilemma" and could endanger the Good Friday agreement.... Just incredible that this is happening in this country, the Gov and the RW populist press are literally rewriting facts over so much of the last few years for Brexit and Covid and Tory corruption because they know that right now and for the foreseeable future most people really dont give a sh1t about the truth and facts. Long as "Freedom Day" comes, Pubs are open during the Euro's and people get to go on a summer holiday then the English public give zero fcuks about any of this


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1402522215283924995

"Boris Johnson sold his Brexit deal to the public on the ABSOLUTE PROMISE THERE WOULD BE NO CHECKS ON GOODS GOING FROM GREAT BRITAIN TO NORTHERN IRELAND!"
Edwin Poots on Andrew Marr “We are going to have 15,000 checks per week of goods coming from Great Britain to Northern Ireland”


----------



## Andromalia

Louis Cypher said:


> iterally 6 months in to Brexit and the truth is being undermined and the narrative is being rewritten



The main issue is, these rewritings do jack shit as far as the EU is concerned. They might Help BJ being reelected or whatever but they're not going to make the UK's situation better.


----------



## Louis Cypher

"What some of the most vocal critics of the protocol are saying today - and what they said then."
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...anged-their-tune-on-northern-ireland-protocol

Couple of choice ones:
Andrew Bridgen, Conservative MP
What he said then: “If you had offered me what we’ve got here back in 2016 I wouldn’t have snapped your hand off, I’d have had your arms and your legs as well.”
What he says now: “It’s just clear the EU wants to annex Northern Ireland away from us, which is what they always wanted… Ultimately I think we’re being stitched up by the European Union and it’s had a very bad effect on the DUP - quite rightly.”
LOL!

This is mad as a bucket of frogs this one.....
Bernard Jenkin, Conservative MP
What he said then: “NOW we can stop banging on about Europe!” and “the withdrawal agreement represents a compromise Brexit, which we now all must live with, and all can do so because it is a good compromise.”
What he says now: “If the EU insists on an unreasonable interpretation of the withdrawal agreement, the UK must stand ready to repudiate it. I hope it is not necessary, but if it is the only way to achieve UK prosperity and the kind of sovereign independence which is the democratic right of any nation recognised under the UN charter, then so be it. And most other nations would respect us for that.”
LOL! I mean WTF are you talking about you total bellend?!

This is a deal they co-wrote and agreed and signed in to law that they either knew all alone was BS or more likely were all too fcuking stupid and obsessed with their idealogical anti-EU w*nk fantasies to see what they had actually agreed to and now all the so call "Project Fear" predictions are coming true they are desperatley trying to pin all the blame for this on the EU (or anyone other than themselves!). English Exceptionalism has taken over Gov & Tory politics to the dire detriment of the entire UK


----------



## Louis Cypher

James O'Brien as brilliant as always on pointing out the complete charlatans and liars who are in charge of this country and the farce of this Irish Protacol BS.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Well, it *was* a good idea. I shudder at the thought of having had to come up with a Covid relief plan with the UK still having voting rights in the EU.


It was an idiotic idea by any criteria other than yours as a French citizen. He gambled that Brexit would lose, lost, and his own government collapsed around him while trying to deliver the impossible, the "all benefits, no costs" Brexit that Boris Johnson had promised during the referendum, and must be feeling pretty fortunate that covid happened when it did to distract British voters from the fact that they'd been sold a bill of goods. 

But, um, I'm glad you're happy.


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> Regarding the "West" vaccination hoarding
> https://www.unaids.org/en/resources/presscentre/featurestories/2021/march/20210310_covid19-vaccines
> "Many of these rich nations, including the US, UK and EU, are blocking a proposal by over 100 developing countries to be discussed at the World Trade Organisation (WTO) today, which would override the monopolies held by pharmaceutical companies and allow an urgently needed scale up in the production of safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines to ensure poorer countries get access to the doses they desperately need." But Boris says its Ok to help out elsewhere by 2022......


I may be behind the curve on this... but last I heard, the US had reversed position and supported it, as of maybe two weeks ago? I remember pharma companies trading off on the announcement.


----------



## Andromalia

Drew said:


> It was an idiotic idea by any criteria other than yours as a French citizen.


Well, I thought the tongue-in-cheek was obvious.  But most euopeans are really happy the brits made that mistake and helped us get rid of their politicians. The UK was seen as a counterproductive member of the EU and a dead weight.



> but last I heard, the US had reversed position and supported it, as of maybe two weeks ago? I remember pharma companies trading off on the announcement.


From what I read about it today, the creux of the matter is, overriding the monopolies and licenses won't make african countries able to manufacture anything, other than South Africa. So, who will profit from being able to manufacture Pfizer/AZ/Etc clones ? China.
Which makes the waving of copyrights etc unlikely for the moment


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> Well, I thought the tongue-in-cheek was obvious.  But most euopeans are really happy the brits made that mistake and helped us get rid of their politicians. The UK was seen as a counterproductive member of the EU and a dead weight.



Yeah, on behalf of the UK, I'd like to apologise for most of the MEPs we elected in our final years in the EU. To think that Nigel Farage was an elected representative of the nation is still pretty sickening!

The only good thing about Brexit has been the ringside seats at the Boris Johnson show. You cannot get this sort of reality-bending entertainment anywhere else and with BoJo prancing around here in London, we've got the best coverage


----------



## Andromalia

It's not just the recent politicians, though. The UK has been a negative force in the EU for 40 years. The recent politicians just have other added... "qualities".


----------



## StevenC

My MEP for a long time was a confirmed terrorist


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> It's not just the recent politicians, though. The UK has been a negative force in the EU for 40 years. The recent politicians just have other added... "qualities".



I suppose that any dissenting voice in things is not allowed from the EU's perspective, but then I guess when it comes to European politics the French have just been used to doing whatever they're told to.


----------



## Andromalia

The UK wasn't "any dissenting voice", it was "breaking on all fours on all subjects" and basically arguing in bad faith all along in order to reap all the benefits without putting in the effort.


----------



## StevenC

21 days is not a long time, Edwin


----------



## Louis Cypher

Latest in the Tory Class/Culture War
"Conservative-dominated Commons education committee" have published the following report: "The Forgotten: How White Working-class Pupils Have Been Let Down, and How to Change It"
https://www.theguardian.com/educati...dding-fuel-to-culture-war-in-education-report
Tory MPs are saying phrases like "white privilege" may contribute towards "systemic neglect" of white working-class pupils..... Funny how these same Tory MP's voted against helping to feed these same systemically neglected kids, TWICE, during lockdown last year and had to be embarressed in to two U-turns on it by a black premier league footballer who had suffered the same when he was growing up...... approx 2.7m children living in poverty were twice denied access to free school meals during school holidays by the Tory party, while another 1.3m children don't qualify under the current rules for free school meals. So thats approx *4 MILLION* school children the Tory Gov either refuse or have refused to help be fed but the most important thing is that "...phrases like "white privilege" may contribute towards "systemic neglect" of white working-class pupils" "

Other people are putting it much better than I can:


James O'Brien Twitter said:


> Having been groomed by right-wing media to dismiss experts, denigrate teachers & mock education in favour of ‘common sense’, the ‘white, working class’ are today being invited *by the same people* to blame their low educational achievement on, wait for it, opposition to racism.
> I wonder why they never, ever, ever make it about white working class children doing worse in school than white middle class children…
> "I've never heard anybody from the right of British politics complaining about poor kids doing worse than richer kids."





@akalamusic said:


> The entire UK press from mail to guardian has promoted the idea of the left behind ‘white working class’ as if white kids are being neglected *because* they are white rather than general classism... Or that there is anything strange about the children of Igbo engineers doing better in school on average than the children of yorkshire coalminers or English-Jamaican plumbers... They ante promoting the idea that poor whites should fail relative to middle class whites but if African kids are doing better the system *must be* broken. Racial virtue signal, you see?



Also just to add, in the last 40 years, 29 of them the education system has been under Tory control and yet according to this report approx 70% of all school children are & have been let down by the UK education system for decades..... Dept for Education stats from 2017 show that approx 30% of UK school children are non white, therefore this report shows that nearly 3/4's of all children because they are white apprently are being let down by the system, not because the education system is sh1t unless you can afford to send your kids to private school or afford private tutors


----------



## Louis Cypher

Latest Brexit update 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...u-cutting-amount-of-uk-content-on-european-tv

"....the privileges that come with UK film and TV content being defined as “European” are under threat, with the risk of a major loss of the international sales used to finance some of Britain’s most popular programmes. Under the EU’s audiovisual media services directive, a majority of airtime must be given to such European content on terrestrial television and it must make up at least 30% of the number of titles on video on demand (VOD) platforms..."
"An internal EU paper, obtained by the Guardian, revealed a concern among the 27 member states that allowing UK content to be counted as part of a protected quota of European content was a hindrance to the promotion of the union’s “cultural diversity”." 

We have left the EU so therefore out content cannot be counted as part of the protected quota, fcuking obvious tbh, though its apparently a surprise to those in the UK who actually negotiated the Brexit deal?! LOL! Possible loss of £1.4billion A YEAR to UK broadcasters..... 

Loyal Brexiters are obviously furious


----------



## possumkiller

So is all this Brexit stuff why English football fans have been acting like scumbags?


----------



## StevenC

possumkiller said:


> So is all this Brexit stuff why English football fans have been acting like scumbags?


Nah, they've always been scumbags. If anything it's the other way around.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Jonathan Pie sums it all up brilliantly as usual


----------



## Drew

No picture, but a buddy of mine who lives in London shared a Conservative party campaign slogan on a subway he was on in an IG story the other day - "We plan to cut all homeless people in half by 2030." 

I mean, truth in advertising, amirite?!


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> No picture, but a buddy of mine who lives in London shared a Conservative party campaign slogan on a subway he was on in an IG story the other day - "We plan to cut all homeless people in half by 2030."
> 
> I mean, truth in advertising, amirite?!


While the sentiment isn't far off and the Tories are that incompetent, I'm pretty sure that was a joke poster some street artists put up.


----------



## r33per

Drew said:


> No picture, but a buddy of mine who lives in London shared a Conservative party campaign slogan on a subway he was on in an IG story the other day - "We plan to cut all homeless people in half by 2030."
> 
> I mean, truth in advertising, amirite?!


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> While the sentiment isn't far off and the Tories are that incompetent, I'm pretty sure that was a joke poster some street artists put up.


Let me have my fun.


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ally-rewrite-northern-ireland-brexit-protocol
"UK says it wants to substantially rewrite Northern Ireland Brexit protocol
Brexit minister warns ‘we cannot go on as we are’, as he publishes blueprint for alternative arrangement"

That would be the protocol the UK co-wrote coz we insisted on having as the NI backstop was so sh1t an idea, because we insisted on leaving the Single Market AND the Customs Union(?!?!?!) that the UK Gov signed up to & voted in to law with Boris banging his little drum about how amazing the deal was for the UK and especially NI.... and that position lasted in reality weeks before they started bleating about how sh1t it was & how the EU had tricked us(?!?!?) when they saw the nightmare they had inflicted on NI. Of course this is all the EU's fault tho and we are expecting the EU to fix a problem the UK created for itself. #TeamBoris #LittleBritianniaWavesTheRules


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ally-rewrite-northern-ireland-brexit-protocol
> "UK says it wants to substantially rewrite Northern Ireland Brexit protocol
> Brexit minister warns ‘we cannot go on as we are’, as he publishes blueprint for alternative arrangement"
> 
> That would be the protocol the UK co-wrote coz we insisted on having as the NI backstop was so sh1t an idea, because we insisted on leaving the Single Market AND the Customs Union(?!?!?!) that the UK Gov signed up to & voted in to law with Boris banging his little drum about how amazing the deal was for the UK and especially NI.... and that position lasted in reality weeks before they started bleating about how sh1t it was & how the EU had tricked us(?!?!?) when they saw the nightmare they had inflicted on NI. Of course this is all the EU's fault tho and we are expecting the EU to fix a problem the UK created for itself. #TeamBoris #LittleBritianniaWavesTheRules


I mean, the deal was also the very limit of the concessions the EU was willing to make, and unless I'm remembering wrong, Johnson's insistence on these points, at the time, when it was unclear if a deal was even possible, was widely viewed as a backdoor attempt to crash the UK out of the EQ _without_ a deal, in violation of his pledge to Parliament and a binding Parliamentarian bill, no?


----------



## StevenC

There's a lot of stupid people here who are all but threatening violence over the NI Protocol, but honestly it's pretty good. We can get stuff from the UK and the EU without much hassle and sometimes don't get charged VAT.


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...ommons-for-saying-johnson-has-lied-repeatedly
Dawn Butler MP is ejected from Commons for saying Johnson has lied repeatedly
Labour MP accused the prime minister of misleading the Commons and the country over coronavirus

This is barely getting any coverage but tbh its actually incredible. The amount of lies Boris inparticular, but other Gov ministers as well have made in the chamber over the last few years and not corrected the record (which is actually a resignation offence apprently if you mislead the house, but whatever) is unbeliveable and yet Dawn Butler is punished and ejected for the day for telling TRUTH(!!) about those lies.
The ridicuously antiquated rules that govern the Commons and the MP's speaking in the Chamber have some how worked for centries because all the MP's regardless of side or party have played by those rules. Now we have this Johnson led Gov in charge that are playing by their own made up rules or no rules at all and riding roughshod across parlimentary proceedure (illegally proroguing parliament for example) the actual rules are hamstringing anyone from calling that out and trying to set the record straight. Madness

Link - "Boris Johnson’s top ten lies in his first year as prime minister"
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/boris-johnson-top-ten-lies-2020-and-89768


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Yep, the worst thing is that I’m so jaded by both this government and the popular press that I’m not even surprised that this is getting poor coverage.

After all, there’s a new series of Love Island happening right now!!!


----------



## _MonSTeR_

double post


----------



## StevenC

There are some good parliamentary rules though, like the one regarding free speech that Colum Eastwood used very effectively a week or two ago.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

ah yes, you can call a man a murderer, but not a liar


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jul/29/destitute-britons-charity-ministers-shame-
Millions of destitute Britons rely on charity handouts, yet ministers feel no shame
Opinion piece in the Guardian. Shocked tbh that I am not shocked by the figures in this article


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-northern-ireland-united-kingdom-europe/
Almost half of British voters who are aware of trade problems with Northern Ireland blame the EU for those frictions, compared to just 31 percent who believe the U.K. is mostly responsible, according to a new poll.
FFS.......


----------



## Louis Cypher

Got to share this. Carol Malone, columnist from the Express, making a complete fool of herself on live TV yesterday to anyone with half a brain cell, but in reality she knows whats she is doing as a hardline anti EU Brexiteer who has unswervingly done her very best to push hers & her employers line on the EU and continue to fuel the Anti EU/Brexit feelings in so many of the English public. The irony being that as Robespierre says in his video, this is what you wanted and voted for when you wanted to leave. The push was for a hard brexit and the main reason in reality for it was the idea of stopping freedom of movement in to the UK. But in doing that, its seems to have come as a shock/outrage/Anti Britishness since we left that this also means freedom of movement ends for those in the UK wanting to travel or resettle in an EU country AND for this ridiculous "debate" in the video (Jeremy Vine's show fuels this BS al the time too) is the fact that the EU's 2016 (Pre the Brexit Referendum so the UK agreed to this) law change that comes into force in 2022 meaning non EU & 3rd Country status nations need to pay to apply for a security visa before travelling in to the EU (Just ilke the US ESTA visa) is somehow an EU plot and a vindictive revenge on the UK for leaving the EU. If we had left but kept the freedom of movement as part of our deal to leave this wouldnt be happening but no one wanted that, they all wanted their hardline, stop all those Johnny Foreigners coming over, Brexit. Carol Malone and other like her I dont believe personally that they are too stupid to understand, they know EXACTLY what they are doing and saying and the narrative they are feeding in to because it works and people like her are famous and making a lot of money out of fueling this complete fcukign nonsense and hate, basically. No other word for it, they are fueling hatred because for the last 5 yrs or so it has worked and paid massive dividends to divide this nation.
Problem is too many people I know and love listen and believe people like Carol and all the other liars rather than listen to the truth from people who actually know what they are talking about. This is what that 2016 vote to leave has done and where its left the UK, or more specifically England.


----------



## Louis Cypher

LOL!! Genius as ever!


----------



## Louis Cypher

Tory MP who consistantly voted against Free School meals for hungry kids and against additional economic help for poorer families during the pandemic volunteers in a local food bank?! What a w*nker, people rely on food banks BECAUSE of MP's like him


----------



## r33per

Finished reading General Sir David Richard's bio "Taking Command" about a fortnight ago. He was the commander of NATO forces in Afghanistan in 2006. It's an interesting perspective that involves praise and despair for military and political wills on all sides.

Little did I realise how (un)timely reading it would be. Published in 2014, a quotation from the end of Chapter 11: 
"Looking ahead at the long-term prospects for Afghanistan and back at the legacy of the war we fought there, I remain largely positive. I believe the West can succeed in its main aim, which to make sure the country does not slip back into what it was - a sanctuary for terrorism... a lot of people have given their lives to keep us free of that curse. We owe them and Afghan people a certainty that we won't betray their sacrifice."


----------



## StevenC

Another huge win for Brexit today in the All Ireland final


----------



## Louis Cypher

Hilarious and spot on as ever


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Well as another perfect display of independent Britain thriving after Brexit, all the local petrol stations are out of fuel. I’ve not got enough left in the tank to go and look for more.

If being in a Mad Max film counts as ‘getting Brexit done’ then good job, Boris. Good job.


----------



## Louis Cypher

I had to queue for 45mins at 7am yesterday morning as I only had 30 miles left in the tank. Thought 7am might be first in, not a chance every petrol station had a HUGE queue. And they are gonna temporarily allow 5000 visas for hgv drivers and poultry industry for no more than 6 mths even tho the Road haulage assoc says its too little too late and even if they can get 5000 EU drivers to come back that will still take weeks poultry farm's inc the UK largest Bernard Matthews have said its too late their will be a huge shortage of turkeys for Xmas. Back in Jan they were warned the existing shortage of drivers was now even worse due to Brexit, taken 9 months for them to see some sense but that's 9 months too late. Fcuking Labour under Starmer are pathetic, too scared to mention Brexit they should be miles ahead in the polls due to all this: Tax rises, food and petrol shortages, gas shortage and price rises, highest covid rates in the world yet still opening up fully as vaccine rates flatline... and yet Boris is still ahead in the polls, I mean seriously WTF?!?!


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> Fcuking Labour under Starmer are pathetic, too scared to mention Brexit they should be miles ahead in the polls due to all this: Tax rises, food and petrol shortages, gas shortage and price rises, highest covid rates in the world yet still opening up fully as vaccine rates flatline... and yet Boris is still ahead in the polls, I mean seriously WTF?!?!


Well, I mean, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is that Brexit IS still fairly... if not popular in the UK, then at least public opinion polling is pretty evenly split. Labor running against Brexit now probably won't do them any good. 

Yes, gas shortages, food shortages, resulting price increases, and tax increases are all deeply unpopular. But, just as before Brexit, everyone who supported Brexit wanted Brexit but also all of the rights and privileges that come with EU membership, now no one likes all of these costs that come with leaving the EU, but somehow half of your population manage to see that as a separate and unrelated issue from Brexit itself. 

So, as mind-bendingly assinine as this is... you can't use food and gas shortages as proof that you need to reverse Brexit, when a good half of your voting public has this crazy cognitive dissonance going on where these shortages caused by import difficulties caused by falling out of a free trade zone don't actually have a thing to do with lreaving that free trade bloc.

So, until that changes, Labour would be fucking suicidal to run against Brexit, which is simultaneously deeply hilarious, and deeply sad.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Roughly 35%of people in the UK voted for Brexit. It’s safe to assume that 35% of the UK populace have a sub average IQ... I’m not saying it’s the same 35%, but I like to imagine it is...


----------



## StevenC

Every Brexiteer I've met in real life is also antivax. Now, I don't know if that's just the demographic specifically where I am, but I do think they share a conspiratorial "it's against the world" mentality and think shortages are the EU screwing it's for being bold and independent.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Drew said:


> Well, I mean, the 800 pound gorilla in the room is that Brexit IS still fairly... if not popular in the UK, then at least public opinion polling is pretty evenly split. Labor running against Brexit now probably won't do them any good.
> 
> Yes, gas shortages, food shortages, resulting price increases, and tax increases are all deeply unpopular. But, just as before Brexit, everyone who supported Brexit wanted Brexit but also all of the rights and privileges that come with EU membership, now no one likes all of these costs that come with leaving the EU, but somehow half of your population manage to see that as a separate and unrelated issue from Brexit itself.
> 
> So, as mind-bendingly assinine as this is... you can't use food and gas shortages as proof that you need to reverse Brexit, when a good half of your voting public has this crazy cognitive dissonance going on where these shortages caused by import difficulties caused by falling out of a free trade zone don't actually have a thing to do with lreaving that free trade bloc.
> 
> So, until that changes, Labour would be fucking suicidal to run against Brexit, which is simultaneously deeply hilarious, and deeply sad.



For me I think Labour (or any other Opp party) stance should be not to reverse Brexit, as that ship has sunk and as you say even with all thats happened Brexit supporters are still prepared to perform mental gymnastics in order to convince themselves and everyone else that Brexit has nothing to do with anything thats happening right now. They should however be bringing it down on how this is not the Brexit we were all promised, this is not what Boris when he won the 2019 election with his oven ready deal etc etc BS BS BS said Brexit would mean and be, so its a broken promise like the election pledge not to raise taxes has been broken. But Labour are a) too fcuking busy infighting between themselves over how "LEFT" the party should be, even though the hard Left Labour lead party suffered the worst defeat in nearly 100 yrs in 2019 so the country has shown they are not interested in hard socialist policies any time soon & b) Starmer seems obsessed with "winning back" those so called "Red Wall" voters who defected to the Tories, they are never gonna go for Labour as they are predominanly Brexit supporting/anti immigration voters. He should be mobilising the disenfranchised Remain voters and giving them a reason to vote Labour. In 2019 those people really had no one to vote for, either Hard Line Brexiteer Hard Right Torys or Toxic Hard Left Socialist Antisemitic Labour, it was a joke.

Last weeks PMQ's embarressed Starmer too in that his deputy Angela Rayner landed so many punches, all be it on the complete fcukwit that ois Dominic Raab, but still she was a breath of fresh air taking the Torys to task. But she still avoided the B word. They should be able to rip this Gov apart over its handling of Brexit and the knock on affect of Fuel shortages, food shortages, price and inflation increases, tax increases on the poorest, removing the £20 UC uplift, covid handling, feeding school kids the list goes on and on, all that without sounding like they are trying to reverse the 2016 result. If they can keep hammering home how this Brexit is nothing like what was promised and how they can do better post Brexit then they will convert enough people again to vote for them.



StevenC said:


> Every Brexiteer I've met in real life is also antivax. Now, I don't know if that's just the demographic specifically where I am, but I do think they share a conspiratorial "it's against the world" mentality and think shortages are the EU screwing it's for being bold and independent.



I personally wouldnt say that 100% every Brexiteer is an antivaxer, I do know a few who are not Antivax, but def everysingle AntiVaxeer is also a Brexiteer, but you're right its all about this idea of being part of some kind of members only club that they have special knowleadge that everyone else doesnt.... plus the idea that there is always someone else to blame for what they percieve has gone wrong in their life


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> I personally wouldnt say that 100% every Brexiteer is an antivaxer, I do know a few who are not Antivax, but def everysingle AntiVaxeer is also a Brexiteer, but you're right its all about this idea of being part of some kind of members only club that they have special knowleadge that everyone else doesnt.... plus the idea that there is always someone else to blame for what they percieve has gone wrong in their life


Yeah, I just mean that NI Unionists are fucking nuts and are brought up to be paranoid as hell. I know people that will tell you they need to keep Larne a Unionist stronghold because that's where the ferries go from so they can all escape a United Ireland.


----------



## Louis Cypher

StevenC said:


> Yeah, I just mean that NI Unionists are fucking nuts and are brought up to be paranoid as hell. I know people that will tell you they need to keep Larne a Unionist stronghold because that's where the ferries go from so they can all escape a United Ireland.


The NI Unionists are a whole 'nother level when it comes to Brexit/Reality denial! Fact that they are fighting so hard to get the NI Protocol removed when the Protocol is actually helping protect NI from all the issues mainland UK is suffering coz of Brexit is insanity! There no shortages (apparently, please correct me @StevenC if I'm wrong) of food or fuel or whatever else. Fact they want NI to suffer the same as England is right now coz that proves the sovereignty of NI & the UK is laughable if it wasnt so ridiculous

@StevenC You might like this video mate on the insanity of unionist Brexiteers


Also on the fuel shortage, todays line from the Gov: Its all the publics fault there is a shortage and also its a scam by the petrol companies to raise prices and make money. Nothing to see here when its comes to Gov responsibilities over this


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> The NI Unionists are a whole 'nother level when it comes to Brexit/Reality denial! Fact that they are fighting so hard to get the NI Protocol removed when the Protocol is actually helping protect NI from all the issues mainland UK is suffering coz of Brexit is insanity! There no shortages (apparently, please correct me @StevenC if I'm wrong) of food or fuel or whatever else. Fact they want NI to suffer the same as England is right now coz that proves the sovereignty of NI & the UK is laughable if it wasnt so ridiculous
> 
> @StevenC You might like this video mate on the insanity of unionist Brexiteers
> 
> 
> Also on the fuel shortage, todays line from the Gov: Its all the publics fault there is a shortage and also its a scam by the petrol companies to raise prices and make money. Nothing to see here when its comes to Gov responsibilities over this



Jim's not an idiot. He was a good senior barrister for a long time and just realised it's far easier to make a living doing nothing with the TUV.

I mean, he might also be an idiot, but he knows what he's doing.


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> They should however be bringing it down on how this is not the Brexit we were all promised, this is not what Boris when he won the 2019 election with his oven ready deal etc etc BS BS BS said Brexit would mean and be, so its a broken promise like the election pledge not to raise taxes has been broken.


Yeah, but again, to say the quiet part out loud... Brexit was never about national self-determination or paying taxes to Brussels or inability to independently shape trade or currency (doubly so, for the UK of all places) policies. It was about keeping immigrants out. They DID get the Brexit they were promised, they just didn't realize all the other shit that came with that, and still don't.

And, until they do, even "this is not the Brexit you were promised' isn't a winning platform, because Brexit was a fairy tale, and if they run on that and win, they have to find a way to deliver that fairy tale.

About the best I think Labor can hope for was some variation of your "Brexit was clearly a mistake, but that ship has passed" comment, and that's hardly going to be a slogan that sparks marches in the street.


----------



## Andromalia

Louis Cypher said:


> The NI Unionists are a whole 'nother level when it comes to Brexit/Reality denial!



Honestly, as a left-inclined french despising the british governments since Thatcher (I do have a number of british friends, and understand I shouldn't judge british people by their politicians), I wonder how in the 9 hells the brits managed to elect people worse than what we have in France. I do realise that Murdoch is half of the problem, though. I acknowledge that I might have issues properly assessing the relationship between the voters and the parliament, since we got rid of our kings and you didn't, but seen from that side of the channel, you politicians are a bunch of morons, and not because they oppose the EU, but because they are not serving their people. Johnson, Farage & co are traitors to the UK.
I'm happy we got rid of the UK because they keep electing anti-EU assholes. But it didn't have to be this way.


----------



## StevenC

Looks like one positive of Brexit is that we're finally going to get GE and GM crops, which is the dumbest thing to happen in the EU.



Andromalia said:


> I'm happy we got rid of the UK because they keep electing anti-EU assholes. But it didn't have to be this way.


And terrorists. My MEP was a terrorist.


----------



## sleewell

I listen to James Obrien from time to time. How is he perceived over there? It's funny how a few years back it was brexiters calling in saying how great it was going to be but they couldn't really name why. Now they really aren't calling in anymore. Seems like a lot of his predictions have come true. What a mess.


----------



## Louis Cypher

sleewell said:


> I listen to James Obrien from time to time. How is he perceived over there? It's funny how a few years back it was brexiters calling in saying how great it was going to be but they couldn't really name why. Now they realy aren't calling in anymore. Seems like a lot of his predictions have come true. What a mess.


James O'Brien is one of the very few journalists or radio pundits who is actually trying to tell the reality of whats happening in the UK not trying to inflame peoples prejudices and resentments (whether thats Brexit, Anti Immigration, Climate Change, Covid, BLM etc) for his own personal gain. His latest book is actually really good and worth a read about his own journey over the years on subjects


----------



## Louis Cypher

BBC News - Conservative conference: Boris Johnson refuses to rule out further tax rises
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58779160

Yah, possibily more tax rises. What happened to the sunny uplands and low taxation small government all the brexiteers promised??

Also he says the current food, fuel, gas, co2, labour, HGV driver etc etc shortages and calling in the army to help, are just a "...period of adjustment..." post brexit. And even tho we have desperately had to offer 10,000 visa to EU Hgv drivers and poultry workers for 3 mths and now had to up that to 6 mths due to incredibly low take up, (Obviously. I mean wtf would you wanna come here to help, when 9 mths ago the government forced them all out in the name of controlling our boarders that we have actually been able to control for the last 30 years).

He also (with a complete absence of irony baring in mind the 10k visas the government have been forced to issue this week) keeps the racist/xenophobic brexiteers happy with this: .... "He called out those who wanted to "go back to the tired and failed old model..." of "reaching for the lever called uncontrolled immigration" " Gotta keep all those racists scared of those imaginary enemies 

And this is all due to get worse next year with the remaining transition agreements come to an end with the EU.

This country is fcuked until the Brexit Cultists (coz that is what Brexit is now, a cult) are voted out. Which ain't gonna be any time soon


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

StevenC said:


> Every Brexiteer I've met in real life is also antivax. Now, I don't know if that's just the demographic specifically where I am, but I do think they share a conspiratorial "it's against the world" mentality and think shortages are the EU screwing it's for being bold and independent.



Brexiteers come in two stripes IME, the pied pipers building Tax Haven GB away from any international financial oversight, and the village children who will eat any old bucket of horseshit provided it's certified Not WokeTM



Louis Cypher said:


> I personally wouldnt say that 100% every Brexiteer is an antivaxer, I do know a few who are not Antivax, but def everysingle AntiVaxeer is also a Brexiteer



Nah I've met plenty of older people of colour with stupid antivaxx views who are definitely not Brexiteers tbh


----------



## Louis Cypher

Pie would make a better leader of the Opp than the one we have right now


----------



## r33per

Very sad and bad news today.

Public ccess to the MP is a foundational part of our democracy and should not be impeded or impinged, but the person occupying the office of MP should be able to do so without fear for their lives.

Just not a good day, especially for Sir David's family.


----------



## Louis Cypher

As obviously terrible as the death of Sir David Amess is, its worrying that it has taken his death for the Government to suddenly be pushing the Online Safety Bill through Parliament apparently by Christmas, after sitting on it for 3 years and the fact no law changes were made or proposed in the wake of MP Jo Cox's murder by a right wing extremist weeks before the Brexit vote. Also, in light of the Sarah Everad and Sabina Nessa murders I don't see the police or government ministers telling MP's in danger or who are being threatened to stop and call 999 or catch a bus or knock on a strangers door and not to go out alone especially at night.... no new changes to laws to protect the 3 women a week who are murdered in the UK from domestic violence. The 3rd MP to be murdered in 30 years and the government can't move quick enough to change the law, some MP's even calling for a specific "Davids Law" to protect MP's from online hate. No proposals have been made to protect women, infact calls for misogyny to be made a hate crime were waved away by the PM and ministers, Inc Raab who didn't even know what the word meant!
Edit: I'm not saying it should be either or, I'm saying everyone deserves protection and to feel safe at home, at work and on the streets whether they are an MP or a teenager or a woman out alone. Just feels that some are deemed more important than others by this government.


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-remainers-as-polarised-as-ever-survey-finds
British leavers and remainers as polarised as ever, survey finds (No sh1t Sherlock!)
Nine out of 10 people would vote the same way again, but leavers feel better about UK politics since Brexit

"(The) survey co-author Sir John Curtice said the latest findings contained little to indicate that Brexit wounds were healing. “As a result, Britain is left divided between one half of the country who now feel better about how they are being governed and another half who, relatively at least, are as unhappy as they have ever been.”"

"...there was a sharp rise in 2020 in the proportion of 18- to 44-year-olds who thought Britain was unequal and favoured the rich. Younger adults were also more likely than older cohorts to agree that the government should redistribute income from the better-off to the less well-off...."

"Leavers are now more likely than remainers to trust the government to place the needs of the nation above party political interests....... This recovery (in public trust of the Goverment), however, was largely on the back of leave voters, 31% of whom expressed trust in government, up from 12% in 2019. Remain voters largely distrusted government in 2019 (14%) and this view had changed little (17%) a year later."

I dunno what to say tbh, fact that Leaver voters still support the Brexit skip fire adn now trust the goverment more after the farce they have made of Covid & Brexit. And the fact that older people are still doffing the cap to wealth......


----------



## Anquished

Louis Cypher said:


> https://www.theguardian.com/politic...d-remainers-as-polarised-as-ever-survey-finds
> British leavers and remainers as polarised as ever, survey finds (No sh1t Sherlock!)
> Nine out of 10 people would vote the same way again, but leavers feel better about UK politics since Brexit
> 
> "(The) survey co-author Sir John Curtice said the latest findings contained little to indicate that Brexit wounds were healing. “As a result, Britain is left divided between one half of the country who now feel better about how they are being governed and another half who, relatively at least, are as unhappy as they have ever been.”"
> 
> "...there was a sharp rise in 2020 in the proportion of 18- to 44-year-olds who thought Britain was unequal and favoured the rich. Younger adults were also more likely than older cohorts to agree that the government should redistribute income from the better-off to the less well-off...."
> 
> "Leavers are now more likely than remainers to trust the government to place the needs of the nation above party political interests....... This recovery (in public trust of the Goverment), however, was largely on the back of leave voters, 31% of whom expressed trust in government, up from 12% in 2019. Remain voters largely distrusted government in 2019 (14%) and this view had changed little (17%) a year later."
> 
> I dunno what to say tbh, fact that Leaver voters still support the Brexit skip fire adn now trust the goverment more after the farce they have made of Covid & Brexit. And the fact that older people are still doffing the cap to wealth......



Sadly, absolutely none of this surprises me.


----------



## Louis Cypher

I have no idea what to say tbh....
https://schoolsweek.co.uk/dont-teach-contested-views-on-white-privilege-as-fact-dfe-tells-schools/

"Schools should not teach “contested views about white privilege” as fact, the government has warned, with ministers planning new guidance for schools to help “meet their duties”. Education secretary Nadhim Zahawi has submitted the government’s response to a report by the Parliamentary education committee The forgotten: how White working-class pupils have been let down, and how to change it. The report sparked controversy and accusations that MPs were trying to start a culture war when it recommended that schools consider whether promoting “politically controversial terminology” such as “white privilege” was in line with their duties under the Equality Act."

Just to clarify: White Privilege is not an opinion. Its a Fact.

This is from an Education secretary who is BAME himself, born in Baghdad to Iraqi Kurdish parents and aged 9 fled to the UK from Iraq with his family to escape Saddam Hussein rule. Also probably worth adding that he is also according to Wiki/Business Insider report in 2017 he was the 2nd highest earning MP in the UK due to all his outside interests and roles and so wealthy that according to The Guardian in early 2017 Zahawi spent £25m buying property around London, for both personal and commercial use.

Tory MP's only care about white working class pupils being let down etc etc when they want to down play any kind of talk of institutional racisim in regards to BAME pupils, yet those same white working class pupils are not being let down enough when it comes to those same MP's voting to provide them with free school meals...... Just incredible that ministers such as Zahawi and Patel are prepared to put climbing the Tory political greasy pole and forwarding their own financial and power interests ahead of actually standing up for equality for people of colour like themselves and to fight the Torys pushing and promoting Islamaphobia & Racisim in order to keep their voter base happy.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

My wife is a headteacher at a state funded UK primary school. Summer-born, white, working class, British boys are consistently the group who are underperforming relative to the other groups... White Priviliege is a fact. But not every white person benefits from all aspects of it.


----------



## Louis Cypher

_MonSTeR_ said:


> My wife is a headteacher at a state funded UK primary school. Summer-born, white, working class, British boys are consistently the group who are underperforming relative to the other groups... White Priviliege is a fact. But not every white person benefits from all aspects of it.


Yes of course and there are many many reasons why they are under perfoming as a group - poverty inc in work poverty, malnutrition etc etc but none of the reasons they are under performing is because of their Ethnicity.
The issue with discussing White Priviliege is the word "Priviliege". working class poor black and white pupils (boys in particular) suffer due to all the same reasons, BUT black pupils suffer additionally because they are black. No one is saying the white working class boys for example are actually "privileged" their lives are terrible and hard and a lot of that is due to the last 10 years of Tory rule, but, sorry to repeat myself, none of the reasons their life is so hard which means their education then suffers is down to them being white


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Louis Cypher said:


> The issue with discussing White Priviliege is the word "Priviliege". working class poor black and white pupils (boys in particular) suffer due to all the same reasons, BUT black pupils suffer additionally because they are black. No one is saying the white working class boys for example are actually "privileged" their lives are terrible and hard and a lot of that is due to the last 10 years of Tory rule, but, sorry to repeat myself, none of the reasons their life is so hard which means their education then suffers is down to them being white



I didn't read your previous post as conveying this message, but I think you've hit the nail on the head here, the crap that comes from being a poor working class person has nothing to do with skin colour. But there is extra crap to deal with that does.


----------



## Andromalia

My main gripe with this way of viewing racism is that it still is trying to pin people against each other by applying labels to them. As a filthy universalist I think this is exactly the way to make things worse by nurturing resentment and making cooperation close to impossible.
Current "white privilege" proponents are the kind who'd ask german kids to apologise for their nazi great grandparents.


----------



## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> Current "white privilege" proponents are the kind who'd ask german kids to apologise for their nazi great grandparents.


Except no they aren't. Because that's not what privilege means. If you're having trouble with the concept, think of privileges as non-disadvantages. The western world sees normal as white-hetero-cis-males from stable economic backgrounds and most systemic issues stem from that mentality. That is why women suffer oppression, that's why LGBT+ people suffer oppression, that's why BIPOC suffer oppression, and that's why poor people suffer oppression

No one is asking german kids to apologise for their great grandparents, they're asking them to maybe consider them holistically as flawed individuals instead of fondly harkening back to a time when they were doing oppressing. In the same way you or I shouldn't remember our great grandparents without considering them as probably having been subjects and objects of oppression.


----------



## mbardu

Andromalia said:


> My main gripe with this way of viewing racism is that it still is trying to pin people against each other by applying labels to them. As a filthy universalist I think this is exactly the way to make things worse by nurturing resentment and making cooperation close to impossible.
> Current "white privilege" proponents are the kind who'd ask german kids to apologise for their nazi great grandparents.



That's a very French way of thinking .
We're drilled since early school with the notion of the "citizen of the French Republic" as the core identity of the people above any gender/ethnicity/socio-economic group, so much so that even _discussions _of different ethnic groups' status or racial privilege or things like affirmative actions just feel foreign or unnatural because it's generally not a thing we deal with. And I quite like this approach to be honest- universalist like you call it. Getting more difficult nowadays since equity no longer is what it used to be, but still.
It's quite different from the way it's approached in a lot of English-speaking nations. In the UK to some extent (and let's be honest not too bad there, it's way worse in the US where it's almost a caricature), it's the French origin/color-blind/gender-blind/etc approach that's sometimes seen as weird or unnatural thing. Community tends to be more important, but then you get more of those issues of privilege and inequity that don't even make the mainstream public discourse in France.


----------



## Andromalia

StevenC said:


> Except no they aren't. Because that's not what privilege means. If you're having trouble with the concept, think of privileges as non-disadvantages.


1) I wasn't talking about the concept, I was talking about the people using it to push agendas. In the end, we get people being shamed by others because of their skin. That's racism, whoever the target is.
Nowadays, exclusion has become a business. Labeling a room "forbidden to X according to genetic factors" isn't creating a safe space, it's just changing the "white only" label to something else. It derives from the same line of thinking, and is equally racist.

2) Most of the noise done about this has nothing to do with "the cause" and everything to do with "being a money generating business". Same as the National Front in France is the company that made the Le Pen family rich. Creating a better society for all takes a lot of time, but unfortunately woke businesses rake in the money today.

3) I talked about people yelling at german kids because that is what we see: completely ordinary people being accused _nominally and in public_ of being oppressors while all they did was go to school and find a job. As you said, it is about "not being", and you can't fault people for not being something. I'm not an alien, I'm not a turtle, I wasn't born in [insert every country in the world except mine], my skin is a very unique color that is mine only, I have a jewish name, I've been segregated for being jewish, for not being jewish, _and none of it has anything to do with me.
_


> That's a very French way of thinking


Yes, I know, but I still think it's the correct one when I see the place of oppressed minorities in the USA, UK and a few other countries, and in France.
I still think that this, however, is just a convenient way of putting the real fight on the backburner: fighting for the oppressed majority, the working poor.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Andromalia said:


> My main gripe with this way of viewing racism is that it still is trying to pin people against each other by applying labels to them. As a filthy universalist I think this is exactly the way to make things worse by nurturing resentment and making cooperation close to impossible.
> Current "white privilege" proponents are the kind who'd ask german kids to apologise for their nazi great grandparents.



I think from both your posts I get what you're trying to say but equating "white privilege" with the very English thinking that Germany in 2021 still has to apologise for the Nazi era is way off base. England (not Britian) has always had a problem seperating the Nazi's from normal every day Germans. Vast majority of Germans during that time were far from being Nazi's. Kinda in the same way now the vast majority of the UK is not hardcore right wing brexiteer racists. 



StevenC said:


> The western world sees normal as white-hetero-cis-males from stable economic backgrounds and most systemic issues stem from that mentality. That is why women suffer oppression, that's why LGBT+ people suffer oppression, that's why BIPOC suffer oppression, and that's why poor people suffer oppression



I thnk its is really difficult for me to discuss racisim or sexism etc in reality because I am a white-hetero-cis-male from a stable family and economic background. What can I ever hope to understand or know about being paid less for the same job for no other reason than being a woman? What can I understand about knowing that driving at night will nearly always mean I am pulled over by the police just for being black? Its hard coz really at every turn I am part of historys winners, regardless of what the pathetic Right Wing fcukwits try to claim, being White, Male & hetrosexual means I have and right now always will have every advantage possible living in the UK (or the US etc etc).

The part I do agree with @Andromalia about but from a diff perspective is the labels nurturing resentment. But the resentment is from the predominantly White/Male dominated ruling classes and the White/Male Right Wing media & press, because they want resentment they aways want to make sure that people have someone other than the Goverment for you to blame for everything thats wrong with your life and this populist Right Wing Tory party we have right now with its BS Culture Wars and its War on Immigrants and Eco protesters, protecting "our" history, when they really mean "White/British Empire" history. Bl00dy hell, even protesters trying to stand up against violence against woman are being treated brutally by the police and told to catch a Bus if you feel your life is in danger?!?!

Sorry I hope Ive made sense, bit of a stream of consciousness post
My point really is as I said in my previous posts the term "white privilege". Its factually correct and undeniable, BUT it is also so easy for bad faith/jingoistic/racist/right wing commentators & politicians to jump on and pull apart because of the division & resentment you can sow in the poor and under privileged white working classes by giving them something or someone to blame for all their problems, when in actual fact the vast majority of their problems are due to goverment policy in keeping the poor poor and the rich even richer.
Aneurin Bevan summed it up perfectly:


----------



## Andromalia

Louis Cypher said:


> What can I ever hope to understand



Just wanted to discuss this from your (insightful) post.
You are, in my opinion, picking the wrong analogies. The one I'd use to carry my point is, "you don't need to be a cook to know you're fed shit". The reasoning that you need to be X to have an opinion about X's condition is (in my opinion) just an elaborated way to ask people to shut up. (Because they're your competition for subvention money, mostly).
Do I know how it is to be not-me ( a woman, black, whatever)? Not really. Do I know it is sometimes a problem in society ? Yes. And that is what matters, because that is what allows me to take action against it if I am inclined to.

To be fair, my opinion about all this woke thing is probably biased by having worked in the video games industry for 15 years. I'm seeing all those woke people with the same eye a normal christian would look at televangelists in the USA with a phone number for donations.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Andromalia said:


> Do I know how it is to be not-me ( a woman, black, whatever)? Not really. Do I know it is sometimes a problem in society ? Yes. And that is what matters, because that is what allows me to take action against it if I am inclined to.


Thats a fair point, I get where you are coming from now. Your right of course you dont have to "a woman, black, whatever" to realise there is a fundamental problem for those people in our society and to want to take action to change those problems. Perhaps I should have expanded or thought out my post a bit more


----------



## possumkiller

Are you guys dumping feces into the water?


----------



## Louis Cypher

possumkiller said:


> Are you guys dumping feces into the water?


Yep. we are.
"Tory MPs have been defending themselves from accusations they have given the go-ahead to water companies to dump raw sewage in rivers."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59040175

"Water firms discharged raw sewage into English waters 400,000 times last year (2020)"
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ge-into-english-waters-400000-times-last-year


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Louis Cypher said:


> Yep. we are.
> "Tory MPs have been defending themselves from accusations they have given the go-ahead to water companies to dump raw sewage in rivers."
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59040175
> 
> "Water firms discharged raw sewage into English waters 400,000 times last year (2020)"
> https://www.theguardian.com/environ...ge-into-english-waters-400000-times-last-year



I'm just surprised that there was any news outlet that reported on that and not who's leaving "Love Island" instead...


----------



## Louis Cypher

Brilliant commentary to Sunak's interview and yet depressing all at the same time
As Max & one of the YT comments quite rightly says though he and other Brexiteers get away with all this due to p1ss poor journalism in this country not correcting their lies. ie: Free ports are a big Brexit win. Even though we had Free Ports in the UK since the 80's when Thatcher introduced them WHILE WE WERE PART OF THE EU(?!?!?) and then they were shut down in 2012 by, ohh the Tory gov under David Cameron WHILE WE WERE PART OF THE EU(!!!) And yet I havent heard a single interview with a gov minister or brexiteer where the interviewer has picked them up on this, its infuriating


----------



## _MonSTeR_

But but but, Mr Sunak has a pair of £95 flip flops, he MUST be tellign the truth!!!


----------



## Louis Cypher

This Tory Gov just does not give a fcuk!
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...on-avoids-suspension-boris-johnson-sleaze-row
"MPs vote for amendment to save Owen Paterson from suspension after government whips Tories
Latest updates: Leadsom amendment to stop Owen Paterson facing 30-day suspension for breaking rules banning paid lobbying passes by majority of just 18"

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/quarter-tories-lining-up-block-25369518
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1455925538623733761?s=20
https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/1455924539439947779?s=20

And yet the same rules apprently could not be changed when the same committee ruled on Tory MP Rob Roberts sexual harassement of one his employees. As Angela Rayner put it in PMQs today: (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/angela-rayner-confronts-boris-johnson-25367182)
Referring to the misconduct case against the Delyn MP, Ms Rayner added: "When a Conservative member was found guilty of sexual harassment but let off on a loophole, they said the rules could not be changed after the event...... So they can't change the rules to stop sexual harassment but they can change the rules to allow cash for access........ Why is the Prime Minister making it up as he goes along?"

Mr Johnson replied: "All the professions (Police, Teaching etc) that she mentions have a right of appeal. That is what the House needs to consider. May I respectfully say to her that instead of playing politics on this issues, which is what they (Labour) are doing, I think that she needs to consider the procedures of this House in a spirit of fairness." LOL!!!

Just a complete disregard for the Commons and Parlimentary process, I really hope this does actually ring with voters as most commentators believe that Boris thinks peopele/voters won't care about this. Funny too that many of the Tory MP's backing this amendment have been or are subject to investigations by Committee on Standards or Parliamentary Commissioner for Standards......

Edit: says a lot still that 13 Tory's voted against the bill and 98(!!) abstained, that means nearly a third of Tory MP's went against the three line whip on this vote.... 80 seat majority and it passed with a majority of just 18........??


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> 1) I wasn't talking about the concept, I was talking about the people using it to push agendas. In the end, we get people being shamed by others because of their skin. That's racism, whoever the target is.



No, it's not. Racism is discrimination based on race, coming from a position of power. This concept of "white racism" doesn't fly simply because there are structural factors, _to this day_, giving white people a leg up over non-white people. Simply recognizing that those factors exist and trying to offset them isn't racist, and - I'm not saying this is what you're doing - using "anti-white racism" as a reason to not try to compensate or account for those systemic factors is often a way racists attempt to keep their position of privilege in place. 



Andromalia said:


> Current "white privilege" proponents are the kind who'd ask german kids to apologise for their nazi great grandparents.


With the key difference being, of course, that no one thinks those German kids are Nazis and are currently benefitting from the oppression and mass murder of jews, but even the best-intentioned white person is still benefitting from structural factors that come from being in a society that has a long standing preference for white over non-white members. Being a while American has given me _tremendous_ advantages over my non-white countrymen, and asking me to at least recognize that, IMO, isn't a very big ask.


----------



## Andromalia

I'll try to answer overall and not go into quote war mode which is of interest to about nobody.

I agree with your "anti-white racism" assessment being mostly used by white racists as a justification. But thjat's not the point I'm defending. To me, all the racists get to go in the same bag: the classic white KKK-style guy, the fake christian (if you're right wing, you missed a thing or two in scripture...)... and the antisemitic black movements, the arabs targeting chinese -ie, asian, doubt they can make a difference- to steal because "chinese tourists are rich", they all go into the trash box together.
What you are saying is that some discourse is acceptable with some colors and unacceptable with others.
TLDR: if someone wants to burn jews, his skin color doesn't matter. Even if he's an oppressed palestinian for the sake of argument.

I do have to quote something:


> With the key difference being, of course, that no one thinks [....]



What the people doing the finger pointing think is mostly irrelevant. I'm 48. I'm a leftist oriented person (to an american I'm probably one step right of Satan) and I have participated in antiracist movements for decades.
All that new "woke" shit is doing is stirring up shit for the sake of being noticed and, in a lot of cases, for the sake of bulding careers and revenue streams out of it.
Why do they make all that racket on social media ? Because they're in competition with each other for the subvention and youtube ad money.

And the thing is, they are making racism _worse_. What do you think happens when you point your finger at a white unemployed living on social benefits yelling he's "privileged" and should repent ? You're going to get rejection and hatred. Congratulations, you created a new racist from thin air.


----------



## Drew

Andromalia said:


> And the thing is, they are making racism _worse_. What do you think happens when you point your finger at a white unemployed living on social benefits yelling he's "privileged" and should repent ? You're going to get rejection and hatred. Congratulations, you created a new racist from thin air.


I mean, this point has already been addressed. 

Racism is about power. It's a systematic bending of power structures to keep people who are disenfranchised, still disenfranchised. 

You can't do that when you're not in a position of power. 

That white unemployed person living on social benefits DOES still benefit from white privilege. Yes, they have stigmas they're facing in life - the fact they're unemployed, the fact they're living off government largesse - but the color of their skin is NOT one of those stigmas, in nearly the same way the "welfare mother" trope is where that tag oddly seems only to be applied to black women. 

Again, other people have raised this point to you, repeatedly, in this thread, but you can be white and your life can be shit, and you can STILL benefit from white privilege, because the color of your skin is not one _additional_ factor you have to fight to overcome. And refusing to recognize that, IMO, is pretty dangerous - suggesting that benefiting from the color of your skin is something that only happens in certain situations when people are already benefitting from _other_ things or are already successful is a pretty direct attack on the concept of white privilege, by suggesting it isn't _actually_ about the color of your skin, but rather a coded attack on simply being successful. Which, again, is a white power structure, that it's not about race, it's just not white people's fault that they're more successful than black people, without looking below the surface and addressing some of the systemic reasons why that might be.


----------



## Andromalia

> I mean, this point has already been addressed.


No, you refuted it, as a matter of opinion. Sorry for not agreeing but your opinion isn't "the truth".
Racism is about disgust and hatred. The new fad that "racism is about power" is just an argument to tell other people to shut up because they're white. 
People who have power don't need racism, _they're already there_. And people who don't have power can't by your definition be racists, so nobody is racist, yay.

As soon as you start thinking in terms of skin color, you're in trouble. Unfortunately, the american society is built around people being members of racial communities. With the oh so excellent result we can see every day, uh ?
If I was a poor black person, I sure as hell would want to stay where I am, because with the antiracists you have, the results are sooooo great. 

Try seeing it from the whole society perspective. Only two scales: the citizen and the nation. Everything else is redudant and manipulative. (Including sex, you don't need to specify gender in the law either, it's unnecessary)


----------



## Louis Cypher

To put white privilege another way to hopefully explain it. Look at it from the other end, 2 billionaire, successful, world renowned people who both have every privilege and benefit in their lives that being a successful billionaire brings. One is Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey and one is any white billionaire you want to pick. In every sense and benefit and privilege they are the same, EXCEPT Jordan or Oprah or whichever black or Asian billionaire you want STILL even as a successful billionaire, has to deal with racism on a day to day basis. The white billionaire (Bezos, Musk etc) have to deal with no such thing based solely on the colour of their skin.

Privilege is the word that allows snake oil salesmen in political life or right wing media to stoke the resentment and claim white privilege as a lie. But just because the terminology can be corrupted by those with an agenda to keep the status quo does not mean that the reality of that term is false. White Privilege is a fact. Its not an opinion. Its those snake oil salesmen that will keep pushing that its opinion not fact in order to keep things the way they are, because it serves them or their paymasters. 

The other problem with this argument over the term is, in the case of this thread anyway, is I am a white male. And in general the people who do all the arguing and discussing over white privilege and its meaning and whatever tend to always be white and mostly male. Apologies obviously to anyone who has commented on this who is neither white or male!


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> To put white privilege another way to hopefully explain it. Look at it from the other end, 2 billionaire, successful, world renowned people who both have every privilege and benefit in their lives that being a successful billionaire brings. One is Michael Jordan or Oprah Winfrey and one is any white billionaire you want to pick. In every sense and benefit and privilege they are the same, EXCEPT Jordan or Oprah or whichever black or Asian billionaire you want STILL even as a successful billionaire, has to deal with racism on a day to day basis. The white billionaire (Bezos, Musk etc) have to deal with no such thing based solely on the colour of their skin.
> 
> Privilege is the word that allows snake oil salesmen in political life or right wing media to stoke the resentment and claim white privilege as a lie. But just because the terminology can be corrupted by those with an agenda to keep the status quo does not mean that the reality of that term is false. White Privilege is a fact. Its not an opinion. Its those snake oil salesmen that will keep pushing that its opinion not fact in order to keep things the way they are, because it serves them or their paymasters.
> 
> The other problem with this argument over the term is, in the case of this thread anyway, is I am a white male. And in general the people who do all the arguing and discussing over white privilege and its meaning and whatever tend to always be white and mostly male. Apologies obviously to anyone who has commented on this who is neither white or male!


White privelege is the richest South African being the white son of an emerald mine owner whose only marketable skill is tweeting literal nonsense while pretending to be a scientist.


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://twitter.com/syrpis/status/1457351937922191366


Phil Syrpis Twitter Account said:


> Much of the coverage of the latest scandal engulfing the Govt is cast in terms of 'sleaze'. It may just be me, but I don't think that is the right framing. 1/6
> To me, 'sleaze' brings back memories of 'sexual shenanigans' and dodgy expenses claims. What we are seeing now encompasses all that, but also goes beyond it. 2/6
> What we are seeing now is a systematic assault on sites of accountability and constraint (taking in Parliament, the civil service, the judiciary, the media, the right to protest).
> See (from early 2020) https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2020...ake-johnsons-profoundly-alarming-premiership/
> 3/6
> This is a Govt which is seeking to dismantle constitutional constraints, and to place itself, and its own, above the law. It has no scruples about breaking the law, or seeking to change it for its own ends. 4/6
> Beyond the trivialities of 'sleaze', we see large-scale corruption (see @GoodLawProject re COVID contracts), and beyond that democratic back-sliding (as observed in eg Poland and Hungary) and authoritarianism. 5/6
> Framing it in that way (and making the connections between the various parts of the Govt's systematic approach) seems better to capture the scale of the problem. 6/6


----------



## Louis Cypher

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Regulation
So.... turns out that the real reason for Brexit, stopping immigrants & refugees from coming to the UK, is another lie and fail as its now actually harder since England forced the UK to leave the EU. Now we have left the EU we are no longer part of the Dublin III regulations, which in a nutshell means that as a member of the EU a country can legally return a migrant or refugee to the first EU country they arrived in order to process their asylum claim. Unfortunatley every single brexiteer seems to have forgotten or is willfully lying about the fact that this no longer applies to the UK, it got left out of the oven ready deal Lord Frost & Boris signed. We could have agreed it as part of the deal to be the same as Denmark, Iceland & Switzerland but we didn't..... so now we fall under the general UN rules on asylum which means we actually have no legal reason to be trying to turn migrants back, unless we make individual deals with individual countries, which is why we are paying France a fortune to help protect the boarders that Brexit was meant to enable the UK to take back control of.... none of this is in any mainstream media outlets and no-one is picking anyone up on the same old BS as to why the UK is now seeing "record" migrant crossings this year (figures are still a drop in the ocean compared to nearly every other EU country but gotta keep the racists on board). The reason is Brexit.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Another Brexit farce exposed.

This is a prime example of the brexiteers not caring about Brexit, just caring about winning their little playground games.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Will no one think of the MP's families...... LOL!


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I have to say that I do _understand_ why MPs may want to protect their ‘second incomes’ I wouldn’t want changes to my own working conditions that mandated less money in my pocket, but at the end of the day, if the MPs who are working another 20 hours a week on a second job have so much time on their hands then they should be putting that time into being an MP and not into being a non executive director or what have you.

To me, it’s not about the money, it’s about the attention to the role and the conflicts of interest that undoubtedly arise.

Billy Connelly once said that anyone who actually wants to be an MP should automatically be banned from being one


----------



## Louis Cypher

A Tory MP actually asking, in Parliment, for the Human Rights act to be overridden in order to sort the migrant & asylum "problem" caused in actual fact by the Goverment hostile env to those coming to the UK for work or asylum and ironically, made "worse" by Brexit
Utterly shocking but totally unsurprising.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

If you were asked to describe how a typical old school conservative MP looks, that still photo as the thumbnail is absolutely perfect...


----------



## ArtDecade




----------



## Louis Cypher

ArtDecade said:


> Bullingdon Club photo


Wealthy Over Entitled Over Mighty Pig Fucking Cunts


----------



## ArtDecade

Louis Cypher said:


> Wealthy Over Entitled Over Mighty Pig Fucking Cunts



WOEOMPFC. It is long, but I will allow it.


----------



## Louis Cypher

ArtDecade said:


> WOEOMPFC. It is long, but I will allow it.


Happy to shorten it to PFC's, then we can bastardise the KFC logo as brand for them with the colonel's c0ck in a pigs mouth


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I don’t think I want to see that.


----------



## MFB

Louis Cypher said:


> Happy to shorten it to PFC's, then we can bastardise the KFC logo as brand for them with the colonel's c0ck in a pigs mouth



Please don't do that, I started a joke in my office that "PFC" is short for Pretty Fucking Cool, like a parallel to PYT; so help me God if y'all reappropriate my acronym!


----------



## Louis Cypher

Un-fucking-believable that the same papers that demonise refugees as scourgers and "cockroaches" are now all wringing their hands over this and blaming Macron, French police and the traffickers when if the UK provided a safe process for refugees and migrants to come here then they would not need to turn to the traffickers and innocent human beings which is what they are would not be dying trying to cross the busiest shipping lane in the world in dingies barely suitable to cross a lake. As per my earlier post Brexit has made this situation worse and yet people are blaming everyone but the UK, Brexit was to take back control of *OUR* boarders apparently and yet in the next breathe the same people are saying the French should actually be responsible for protecting our boarders?!! 
*Children are dying* and nothing will change as the Gov are trying to make things even harder for these people to get access to the UK because keeping a hostile enviroment to refugees and migrants is a vote winner here, but then this is a Gov that is happy that 4.5 million children go hungry everyday who are all already living here so why would they care about the children of "cockroaches"
I am so ashamed of living in this country


----------



## Andromalia

That WV isn't a police car, either. Police cars in France have a "POLICE" logo and an assorted livery. This could as well be the "journalist's" car.

From what I gathered, nothing will happen with the UK as long as it is led by a band of clowns, especially since we have a presidential election in 6 months


----------



## narad

Louis Cypher said:


> Un-fucking-believable that the same papers that demonise refugees as scourgers and "cockroaches" are now all wringing their hands over this and blaming Macron, French police and the traffickers when if the UK provided a safe process for refugees and migrants to come here then they would not need to turn to the traffickers and innocent human beings which is what they are would not be dying trying to cross the busiest shipping lane in the world in dingies barely suitable to cross a lake. As per my earlier post Brexit has made this situation worse and yet people are blaming everyone but the UK, Brexit was to take back control of *OUR* boarders apparently and yet in the next breathe the same people are saying the French should actually be responsible for protecting our boarders?!!
> *Children are dying* and nothing will change as the Gov are trying to make things even harder for these people to get access to the UK because keeping a hostile enviroment to refugees and migrants is a vote winner here, but then this is a Gov that is happy that 4.5 million children go hungry everyday who are all already living here so why would they care about the children of "cockroaches"
> I am so ashamed of living in this country



I like that people _traffickers_ "launched migrants" like a space vessel with no will of their own.


----------



## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> That WV isn't a police car, either. Police cars in France have a "POLICE" logo and an assorted livery. This could as well be the "journalist's" car.
> 
> From what I gathered, nothing will happen with the UK as long as it is led by a band of clowns, especially since we have a presidential election in 6 months


Not disagreeing, but it least in the UK we have unmarked police cars and only emergency services are allowed to have blue lights in the grille. So to anyone here, that's very believably what the VW looks like: either an unmarked police car or fire and rescue service operative's personal car. What is the law for these types of lights in France?

That's not to say that people don't break these laws, and if a gang is doing human trafficking that wouldn't be a surprising leap.


----------



## Andromalia

StevenC said:


> What is the law for these types of lights in France?


I have no idea. I do know that for the usual reasons, AFAIK national police only use french cars. (Nowadays, usually Peugeot). That car can be an undercover thing, but then it's probably not in their attributions to stop migrants anyway.
TLDR: I've never seen the french police use a VW pickup truck. In that environment a Peugeot 3008 would be what they'd use.

There is no doubt that organised crime is involved in the passing, that is the case everywhere, there is no reason for that area to be different.


----------



## StevenC

Andromalia said:


> I have no idea. I do know that for the usual reasons, AFAIK national police only use french cars. (Nowadays, usually Peugeot). That car can be an undercover thing, but then it's probably not in their attributions to stop migrants anyway.
> TLDR: I've never seen the french police use a VW pickup truck. In that environment a Peugeot 3008 would be what they'd use.
> 
> There is no doubt that organised crime is involved in the passing, that is the case everywhere, there is no reason for that area to be different.


And I suppose if they were going to use a German pickup (because there aren't any French ones) they'd use the Mercedes which is the same car as the Renault-owned Nissan.


----------



## StevenC

So for reasons previously discussed, I haven't been driving for a long time and therefore not paying attention. But oh my goodness what happened to fuel prices?


----------



## Louis Cypher

This on top of all the current Tory noise about the UK leaving the UN or removing from UK law the Human Right conventions in order to "deal" with refugees and those despicable Human Right lawyers and Judges..... This is a really dark and scary path Johnson is leading us down, and most people don't seem to even be noticing coz most of it is wrapped up in Anti EU/Anti Immigration rhetoric


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Ah yes, a law to ignore the law, but only if Uncle Boris doesn't like it!

The UK is becoming more and more like playing a game of Monopoly with an 8 year old and letting them be the Banker...


----------



## Louis Cypher

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Ah yes, a law to ignore the law, but only if Uncle Boris doesn't like it!
> 
> The UK is becoming more and more like playing a game of Monopoly with an 8 year old and letting them be the Banker...


LOL!!!


----------



## zappatton2

So it appears the UK government is going for the Conservative trifecta. First, downplay the pandemic. Second, demonize refugees. And when everything fails, why not revive that good ol' "war on drugs";
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/07/tories-modern-drug-strategy-evidence-policy

What I don't get is that even for conservatives, this nonsense seems to be out of step with the times. But hey, if their mandate is just to rain disaster all over the country, then I raise my glass to you, Boris. I'm assuming alcohol is still exempt for any punitive measures?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I actually think that the Conservative war on middle class drug users is a FANTASTIC idea.

They should start with their very own Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government...

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...to-taking-cocaine-on-several-social-occasions


----------



## Andromalia

Is that where I need to regretfully point out that this person is not middle class ?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Andromalia said:


> Is that where I need to regretfully point out that this person is not middle class ?



Only if you’re ready to be corrected that he is...


----------



## Andromalia

He declared 120K in revenue in 2014.
His MoP salary is 80K.
His reported net worth is 3 millions.

Middle class. Yeah, right.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Gove is the epitome of middle class. Working class origins and a half decent degree from a top university, a bit of time as a journalist and into a cushy salary in politics.

To be more than middle class takes ‘real’ money and ideally a title.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Raab to claim overhaul of human rights law will counter ‘political correctness’
https://www.theguardian.com/law/202...uman-rights-law-counter-political-correctness


Guardian Article said:


> Dominic Raab is to outline a sweeping overhaul of human rights law that he claims will counter “wokery and political correctness”........ The Ministry of Justice (MoJ) said the intended reforms would allow judges to override rulings from the European court of human rights, rather than following them “blindly”....... A senior MoJ source said the government felt strongly that free speech and democratic debate had been whittled away “whether by wokery or political correctness”.


 Need to reform Human Rights laws to stop "wokery or political correctness" WTF?!?!?! LOL!



Guardian Article said:


> It claimed that as many as seven out of 10 successful human rights challenges were brought by foreign national offenders who cited a right to family life in the first instance when appealing against deportation orders – a practice it wants to end.
> Stephanie Boyce, president of the Law Society, said any changes to the Human Rights Act should be led by evidence and not driven by political rhetoric. She said: “British judges deliver British justice based on British laws, looking closely at how judgments fit into the national context, and disapplying them if there is good reason to do so. UK courts do not, as government suggests, ‘blindly’ follow case law from the European court of human rights. “Equally, foreign criminals already can be deported in the public interest even where there are arguments against this from the right to family life. Every case is different, making it necessary to weigh each on its own particulars. Talk of restricting rights is dangerous and does not reflect the nuanced job the courts have to do.”
> 
> Martha Spurrier, director at Liberty, highlighted instances of the Human Rights Act helping people achieve justice, including LGBT military veterans getting their medals back after they were stripped of them because of their sexuality, and unmarried women receiving their widow’s pension after the death of their partners.
> 
> She described the plans as “a blatant, unashamed power grab,” adding: “Today’s announcement is being cast as strengthening our rights when in fact, if this plan goes through, they will be fatally weakened. This government is systematically shutting down all avenues of accountability through a succession of rushed and oppressive bills. We must ensure the government changes course as a matter of urgency, before we very quickly find ourselves wondering where our fundamental human rights have gone.”
> 
> Sacha Deshmukh, the chief executive of Amnesty International, said human rights are not “sweets” ministers can “pick and choose from” and the “aggressive” attempt to “roll-back” the laws needs to be stopped.
> 
> He added: “If ministers move ahead with plans to water down the Human Rights Act and override judgments with which they disagree, they risk aligning themselves with authoritarian regimes around the world.”
> 
> Prof Philippe Sands QC, who sat on the 2013 commission on a bill of rights, said: “The concern is that this will mark a further step in the government’s eager embrace of lawlessness, undermining the rights of all individuals, the effective role of British judges and the European court, and the devolution settlement into which the Human Rights Act is embedded.”



This is a significant and genuinely scary piece of legislation and yet it being wrapped up in Anti EU/Anti immigration/Anti Woke/Anti PC/Patriotic Britishness rhetoric will mean most of the fcukwit voters in this country will think this is great coz it will only affect "others" and wont affect them at all (Brexit anyone???), when these changes will affect every one of us.


----------



## Louis Cypher

What the holy fcuk in hell is going on in this country and this goverment when you have a Prime Minister eviscerated by the so called Partygate report and then by preety much everyone from the opposition to his own back benchers, and the Prime Minister of this country defends himself by accusing, in the House of Commons, the leader of the opposition of failing to act to prosecute serial pedo and sex offender Jimmy Saville in 2009. Bad enough he is trying to deflect blame and wriggle out of the shit show hole he has dug for himself but to use such a ridiculous outrageous lie about a one of the UK's worst sex offenders is beyond disgusting and yet the speaker of the house let him get away with it, while he threw the Leader of the SNP out of the Commons in the same debate for calling Johnson a liar...... what the fcuk and you have labour and Starmer himself bieng quized on it on TV this morning and having to fcukign defend himself while the likes of fcukwit Nadine Dorries actually defends Johnson's comment on Channel 4 News!?!!!

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnsons-disgusting-false-jimmy-26103380

Shouldn't even have to do this but here is the reuters fact check link to prove the Prime Minster of the United Kingdom is a lying cnut
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-britain-savile-idUSL1N2RP200



The ridiculousness of it all is the amount of people calling in to talk shows to defend Boris as well and they all have always believed that Starmer was to blame for Saville, and the best one also believing that all of this skip fire of goverment is a Remainer plot to take power back and get us back in to the EU


----------



## _MonSTeR_

The Prime Minister Tells The Truth.

I find the way in which she delivers this soundbite really quite frightening, it's one step away from "All animals are equal"


----------



## Louis Cypher

posting here rather than the main Ukraine thread

https://inews.co.uk/news/government...customers-30-days-to-wind-down-assets-1490017

UK Government accused of ‘absurd’ sanctions loophole after giving Russian bank customers 30 days to ‘wind down’ assets
"Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced last Thursday that the state-owned VTB Bank, which is the second-largest Russian bank and its largest investment bank, was the subject of a “full and immediate” asset freeze in the UK as part of the Government’s attempts to help derail Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine by targeting key finance houses.

But the following day the Treasury unit in charge of enforcing the UK’s sanctions quietly issued a 30-day licence granting permission for any individual or entity to “wind down any transactions” with VTB until 27 March."

Also, Boris in Poland today gets a fcuking slap down for his response to Ukraine by a Ukrainian journalist
https://www.heraldscotland.com/poli...fronts-boris-johnson-support-warns-ww3-begun/

"Boris Johnson has apologised to a Ukrainian journalist after she urged him to go further in his support for her country........ Ms Kaleniuk, who works for the Ukrainian Anti-Corruption Action Centre, told the Prime Minister that women and children are struggling to flee the country due to air strikes from Putin. She said: " Ukrainian women and Ukrainian children are in deep fear because of bombs and missiles which are going from the sky. Ukrainian people are desperately asking for the rights to protect our sky, we are asking for a no-fly zone. “What’s the alternative for the no-fly zone? 
“Nato is not willing to defend because Nato is afraid of World War Three but it’s already started and it’s Ukrainian children who are there taking the hit."

She also pulled up Mr Johnson on sanctions, specifically asking why the Chelsea FC owner and Putin ally had not been penalised yet. 
She said: "You are talking about more sanctions, Prime Minister, but Roman Abramovich is not sanctioned, he’s in London, his children are not in the bombardments, his children are there in London.”
She said Mr Putin’s children are safe in mansions that have not been seized and, breaking into tears, added: “I don’t see that, see that my family members, that my team members are saying we are dying, we don’t have anywhere to run.”

I'm not even gonna start on the current farce that is the UK's position on Ukrainian refugees, with Boris today contradicting both Priti Patel commons statement yesterday, her under secretary for asylum comments on visa applications and Raab's stand this morning while doign the rounds on radio and TV


----------



## ImNotAhab

Sinn Fein now are the party with the most seats in Northern Ireland...

Scotland will likely hold an independence referendum in the next few years and if it passes they will jump straight back into the EU...

Can someone check on Wales?


----------



## StevenC

ImNotAhab said:


> Sinn Fein now are the party with the most seats in Northern Ireland...
> 
> Scotland will likely hold an independence referendum in the next few years and if it passes they will jump straight back into the EU...
> 
> Can someone check on Wales?


I think it was very interesting that Sinn Fein didn't gain any seats, just Unionism as a whole corroded and Alliance picked up the pieces. Now if SDLP could just give their seats to Alliance we'd be in a real position for change in this country.


----------



## StevenC

This seems like the most relevant place I can vent this.

Fuck GB News.

The past few days Mark Steyn (Fuck Mark Steyn) has been having VITT patients on his show to manipulate them into being puppets for covid misinformation and antivax propaganda. As some of you may know, I suffered from VITT last year so am now in a facebook group with some other survivors. They genuinely believe they're going on there to have their case made and their position advocated for. When in reality they're just being brought out as props to push evil rhetoric that only serves to harm the public.

Fuck GB News.


----------



## Andromalia

These last years, and not only in the UK, it seems like democracy has become "We represent 20% of the electorate, we need to mass propaganda the dumbest 30% we can find so we reach 50%". I feel like the universal vote is getting stolen.


----------



## tedtan

^

That’s not just the UK, though. It’s everywhere.


----------



## Louis Cypher

As most of the right wing media, politicians and racist biogots foam at the mouth over the Euro Court of Human Rights ruling to stop the deportation flight of 7 (yes, 7!) asylum seekers to Rwanda at the cost of about £500k, this sketch from 2016 seems very appropriate


----------



## Drew

Hey, semi relatedly, how much longer do you think Boris Johnson will be able to hold onto power? He damned near toppled last week.


----------



## tedtan

Historically, a PM that manages to win a no confidence vote loses power and is out of office pretty quickly, so I doubt he has a year left before he’s replaced.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Half expecting Boris to change the law so he can’t be removed from power...

Ever...


----------



## LostTheTone

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Half expecting Boris to change the law so he can’t be removed from power...
> 
> Ever...



Don't be so hyperbolic.

Firstly, we are a parliamentary system. The PM is just an MP, he doesn't have any special place in the system. The only way to stay in post is to have the support of the largest party. And on top of that, he cannot change the law. Only parliament can. And if you think that MPs just meekly vote whichever way they are whipped, you don't know many MPs.

Secondly, Boris is halfway through his first term in office and he's having a rough go of it. What makes you think he wants to stay? What do you think he wants to do? His obvious next career move is to a highly paid after dinner speaker. 

These days it seem that everyone fantasises about having properly evil political enemies. It seems that people are just making up an opponent bad enough to justify the incandescent outrage they already feel.


----------



## AMOS

Whose idea was it to ban Russian athletes from competing at Wimbledon? They've reduced the tournament to nothing more than an exhibition activity. Tennis players didn't start the war, they've protested it actually.


----------



## Louis Cypher

LostTheTone said:


> Don't be so hyperbolic.
> 
> Firstly, we are a parliamentary system. The PM is just an MP, he doesn't have any special place in the system. The only way to stay in post is to have the support of the largest party. And on top of that, he cannot change the law. Only parliament can. And if you think that MPs just meekly vote whichever way they are whipped, you don't know many MPs.
> 
> Secondly, Boris is halfway through his first term in office and he's having a rough go of it. What makes you think he wants to stay? What do you think he wants to do? His obvious next career move is to a highly paid after dinner speaker.
> 
> These days it seem that everyone fantasises about having properly evil political enemies. It seems that people are just making up an opponent bad enough to justify the incandescent outrage they already feel.


Boris and the Tory's tried to chage the parlimentary rules last year in order to prevent Owen Paterson from suspension for breaching paid advocacy rules which ended up in such a sh1tshow that Paterson resigned as an MP. They also illegally prorogued parliament in 2019, Partygate obvious law breaking, breaking international law to illegally change the NI protocal.... could go on and on with how his MP's & the RW press protect Boris at all costs, regardless of his law breaking, so its certainly not hyperbole to suggest Boris and the party wouldnt, given the chance, try to find a way for him to remain in power no matter what he does that in any other time in parlimentary history would has seen him resign as PM & an MP. However I do think you're right in that Boris is desperate to be the Ex PM of this country and go back to making millions a year on the speech circuirt like May and all the other ex PM's.... He is quoted as saying his PM salary of £150k a year is chickenfeed I believe...
Anyway, the Gov wants us all to be mad at The EU, the ECHR, asylum seekers, migrants, lefty lawyers, climate protesters, GPs, Remainers and their despicable plotting, train drivers, the Unions etc etc anyone really as long as no one is angry with Boris, he is doing his best, bless him......


----------



## _MonSTeR_

LostTheTone said:


> Don't be so hyperbolic.


Hyperbole? 

On an Internet forum? 

Surely not?


----------



## LostTheTone

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Hyperbole?
> 
> On an Internet forum?
> 
> Surely not?



Thing is though... I read the Guardian. And every single day I see both paid columnists and individual commenters posting the same thing - That Boris wishes to be either dictator or king.

I suppose you might be seriously right wing, and be parodying such comments, but even in that case you've become a victim of Poe's Law and your parody is indistinguishable from the real thing.

Here's a comment from the Guardian story I was reading in another tab:

_"Boris Johnson is the political representative of the rentiers/rent seekers in their intra-bourgeois struggle against the entrepreneurs. The rentiers seek to subvert the 'rule of law' paradigm and reassert the aristocratic power of inherited wealth over productive entrepreneural capitalist investment."_

Does this sound like whimsical hyperbole? Or does this sound like someone who seriously believes that Boris wishes to become some sort of unelected despot who rules over people as his vassals? Of course, ignored in this comment is the fact that Boris is not an aristocrat. His family have a few quid, but they have never been noble, and Boris only went to Eton on a scholarship. Boris is posher than I am (middle class grammar school boy) but he is only as posh as a mate of mine (Kings school boy, son of a self-made millionaire).

My point really is that when you repeat things that you know not to be true, and do so very often, a lot of people start to believe them. That's how cognitive behavioural therapy works. You repeat something often enough and it changes the way you think and feel.

Repeating a lie with no obvious irony when you know it's not true is not healthy and after a while you will forget that it's not true.

There is a great deal to despise about our present government. Why lie about them? Unless you want to convince yourself they are as bad as you feel they are?


----------



## Louis Cypher

So breaking in the last hour, Javid and Sunak have both quit the cabinet over Johnsons fcuking bullsh1t fcuk up over promoting a man he had been previously advised was a sexual predator.
Obviously.... Nadine Dorris has come out in full 100% support of Johnson..... probably thinks she has a chance at being Chancellor


----------



## r33per

I remember about 15-16 years ago, a mate and I having a laugh about seeing a Boris For President t-shirt and finding the incongruous idea hilarious.

Doesn't seem that funny now. Feel a little ashamed, actually.


----------



## Louis Cypher

A group of cabinet ministers inc Gove, Lewis, the Chief Whip and Schapps have all told Johnson he should step down, the 1922 committee is meeting as well to discuss removing him, 31 ministers have now quit and yet Johnson is telling the Liaison committee right now that he is having "... a terrific week." And has no intention of stepping down lol!!! You can't make this utter cluster fuck of an omni shambles up

How the hell does a PM with an 80 seat majority won less than 3 yrs ago fuck over his and his party so badly?? Ohh yeah... coz he is a serial liar, cheat and rule breaker of not only his own governments laws but international laws and treatys as well..... only person to blame for him losing his PM job is Johnson himself, utterly unfit to be an MP let alone hold the highest office in the land!


----------



## Louis Cypher

Nadhim Zahawi it's been announced is also one of the cabinet ministers who have told Boris he needs to go!! Lol!! He only got promoted to chancellor 24 hrs ago and was doing the rounds this morning on tv defending Johnson and stating the PM is not a liar! Lol!! Fcuking hell...


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> A group of cabinet ministers inc Gove, Lewis, the Chief Whip and Schapps have all told Johnson he should step down, the 1922 committee is meeting as well to discuss removing him, 31 ministers have now quit and yet Johnson is telling the Liaison committee right now that he is having "... a terrific week." And has no intention of stepping down lol!!! You can't make this utter cluster fuck of an omni shambles up


To be fair, Johnson didn't _know_ any of this during the committee meeting, and only found out maybe an hour ago that there'd been 32 resignations since he went in to meet with the committee. 

But yeah, high stakes drama going down in the UK today. I think 32 was the size of his margin on the last vote of confidence, so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess Boris is dead in the water as we speak, and he just doesn't know it yet.


----------



## Drew

Yeah, bloomberg page 1 headline: "Downing Street mood reported to be grim, tearful."


----------



## Louis Cypher

The BBC is reporting that apparently Boris is quoted in a meeting today that he is going no where no matter how many mps want him to as "...millions voted for him" in 2019 and there is no one in the tory party other than him who could poss win the next election....

Just to reiterate Bozo knowingly promoted a known sexual predator who has a history of multiple allegations made against him and at least one complaint was upheld, to a position of trust over other MPs and their staff as deputy chief whip and then lied for 4 days about it and as a tory MP in PMQs today said Boris stated that the last allegations from last week, MPs there should have stopped him drinking to prevent the assault from happening... not with regards to any concern for the victim but because last weeks alleged assault has meant Boris has been busted and the party have finally had enough and are abandoning him. Operation Save Big Dog as always


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> The BBC is reporting that apparently Boris is quoted in a meeting today that he is going no where no matter how many mps want him to as "...millions voted for him" in 2019 and there is no one in the tory party other than him who could poss win the next election....


Well, then he's going to lose a no confidence vote, and he's going to find out if any other Tory could win. 

Word I'm seeing (Bloomberg) is so far he's still deciding to fight, but it doesn't look like he can win and he may bow to that reality. We'll know more in a couple hours, at most.


----------



## StevenC

Looks like Boris has finally become a Remainer


----------



## Louis Cypher

A record 14 ministers have quit today

And yet Boris has told the Daily Mail tonight that he will not quit as that would cause "chaos" lol!! Not sure what the last 24 hrs have been if not chaos?!


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> A record 14 ministers have quit today
> 
> And yet Boris has told the Daily Mail tonight that he will not quit as that would cause "chaos" lol!! Not sure what the last 24 hrs have been if not chaos?!


Brandon Lewis quit too


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Louis Cypher said:


> And yet Boris has told the Daily Mail tonight that he will not quit as that would cause "chaos" lol!! Not sure what the last *six years* have been if not chaos?!



FTFY


----------



## StevenC

_MonSTeR_ said:


> FTFY


Worst birthday ever


----------



## Louis Cypher

Priti Vacant has announced she believes he should go as well!! Fucking hell if someone who owes everything to Bozo like Patel does says hes gotta go then you know you truly are fcuked.... tho he still has Nadine Dorries 100% behind him.... Raab, Wallace and Truss are all suspiciously silent tonight.... Mogg too is too quiet right now

Breaking News! Gove has been sacked as a Minister for Levelling up....! Will there be enough MPs left who support him by tomorrow monring to form a full cabinet???


----------



## nightflameauto

I'm rooting for my brothers across the pond. You guys are getting a moment we've dreamed of over here for a long time. 

We'd love to see Trump's core turn on him this way.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

StevenC said:


> Worst birthday ever


Sorry!


----------



## LostTheTone

nightflameauto said:


> I'm rooting for my brothers across the pond. You guys are getting a moment we've dreamed of over here for a long time.
> 
> We'd love to see Trump's core turn on him this way.



You need to understand how the British system works.

The people you are reading about are, in effect, congressmen. They were appointed to jobs in the government too, but they aren't people who are primarily employed to be ministers. They are all elected representatives who are not going anywhere when they leave their ministries.

These mass resignations are not about "the core turning on him", they are all about internal party politics. They happen to a lot of British governments, and more generally to British parties.

Consider that in 2016-2018 the Labour party saw (IIRC) three complete mass resignations and forced a leadership election. But people like Hilary Benn are still party members and still likely to return to senior posts. 

Consider also what happens when Boris is ousted - Nothing. Literally nothing. He will stop being the Prime Minister. But none of the seats in parliament change hands. A new PM will arise, but they will only be elected by members of the Tory party. The new Tory PM will announce their agenda and appoint a new set of ministers and the Tory government will endure until the next election, still with a majority and a mandate to rule.

As for the internal party politics at play here - None of the people resigning have disagreements on policy, or if they do they think Boris is insufficiently right wing.

The real issue is not about issues at all, it just comes down to optics and what will make the Tory party more electable at the next election. Boris was very popular with the grassroots once upon a time, but that has faded following partygate and a string of less noisy but more distasteful scandals. 

So it's time for him to go - And fair enough, he has been a good figurehead for policies that the Tory grassroots love like Brexit, but that is largely over with. The only redeeming factor was his personal popularity but that has waned.

Why right now? It depends how cynical you are, honestly. There are rumours swirling that Keir Starmer is going to get fined regarding Keir's Beers, which would force him to resign too. That'd make now a great time to re-set the Tory leadership. Alternatively, it is just before the summer recess, so a new leader would have a bit of breathing space to get up to speed. 

And whatever reason you can find for "right now", a proper challenge couldn't have waited much longer. The next election is nominally 2 years away, but whoever is the new leader needs at least a year and ideally more to get their messaging together and achieve something.

The real question is who will take over - It seems certain that Boris' loyal supporters are not going to win the party. So, not Raab, not Patel. But none of the other big beasts are going to win over the grassroots. Hunt and Ellwood are laughable prospects. Saj and Rishi has just stabbed a leader in the back, so they won't win.

If you want my guess - Gove. He made Boris sack him, rather than resigning which is interesting and he certainly wants the post. Other runners are Liz Truss (popular, but probably not up to it), Ben Wallace and Penny Maudant. Either of those last two could well take it, but they don't quite have Gove's killer instinct.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Its official........ Boris Johnson will resign as Conservative leader today


----------



## Louis Cypher

Embarrassingly Johnson says he will stay on till the autumn till his successor takes over, the party want him gone now and a caretaker appointed to cover till the leadership contest is done.... what a farce

Callers this morning on the sh1tter talk shows claiming this is a disgrace and Remainer plot to oust him.... Patel, Sunak, David Davis, Steve Baker, Javid, Andrew Bridgen are all apparently Remainer plotters.... the Boris/Brexit Cultists are so divorced from reality! Brexit Hardman Steve Baker, a secret Remainer?! Lol!


----------



## LostTheTone

Louis Cypher said:


> Embarrassingly Johnson says he will stay on till the autumn till his successor takes over, the party want him gone now and a caretaker appointed to cover till the leadership contest is done.... what a farce
> 
> Callers this morning on the sh1tter talk shows claiming this is a disgrace and Remainer plot to oust him.... Patel, Sunak, David Davis, Steve Baker, Javid, Andrew Bridgen are all apparently Remainer plotters.... the Boris/Brexit Cultists are so divorced from reality! Brexit Hardman Steve Baker, a secret Remainer?! Lol!



In fairness, there is no specific reason why Boris shouldn't stay in post until his replacement is elected, and in a strictly constitutional sense it is probably the correct move for him to make. It's still galling, but still makes sense.

The thing is that the UK doesn't have a clear line of succession from the PM. And while the PM doesn't have the kind of sweeping executive powers that a president might do, he does have the nuclear codes and is the de facto commander in chief. Whatever you can say about Boris, he is the legitimate PM, and whatever you might think about his wielding of the nuclear warheads he was elected into the position. 

If Boris were to just walk out and never be seen again... Who's hand is on the trigger? Raab in theory, but his deputy PM position was appointed by Boris. Beyond that, strictly speaking Priti Patel is senior, but she won't inherit number 10 directly (because Walpole) and I have no idea what the plan is in this circumstance.

More pragmatically, both Raab and Patel have been very loyal to Boris, and becoming a caretaker PM would scupper their careers, so he is probably trying to avoid that. Which is fair enough. Both of them will certainly want to run for the leadership (not that they will win).

If I were Boris I would consider appointing David Davies (or similar) to be caretaker - Someone that would be acceptable to most of the party but who is not going to run for the leadership. And once the new PM is elected, they can thank Davies for his service and give him a peerage, which is fair enough.

Thing is that the opposition cannot win a confidence motion right now - The Tories cannot possibly run a general election without a leader, so every single one of them will vote against. And thus there would be a hilarious prospect of the commons announcing they have confidence in a PM who is in the process of resigning. 

Parliament is fun


----------



## r33per

LostTheTone said:


> In fairness, there is no specific reason why Boris shouldn't stay in post until his replacement is elected, and in a strictly constitutional sense it is probably the correct move for him to make. It's still galling, but still makes sense.
> 
> The thing is that the UK doesn't have a clear line of succession from the PM. And while the PM doesn't have the kind of sweeping executive powers that a president might do, he does have the nuclear codes and is the de facto commander in chief. Whatever you can say about Boris, he is the legitimate PM, and whatever you might think about his wielding of the nuclear warheads he was elected into the position.
> 
> If Boris were to just walk out and never be seen again... Who's hand is on the trigger? Raab in theory, but his deputy PM position was appointed by Boris. Beyond that, strictly speaking Priti Patel is senior, but she won't inherit number 10 directly (because Walpole) and I have no idea what the plan is in this circumstance.
> 
> More pragmatically, both Raab and Patel have been very loyal to Boris, and becoming a caretaker PM would scupper their careers, so he is probably trying to avoid that. Which is fair enough. Both of them will certainly want to run for the leadership (not that they will win).
> 
> If I were Boris I would consider appointing David Davies (or similar) to be caretaker - Someone that would be acceptable to most of the party but who is not going to run for the leadership. And once the new PM is elected, they can thank Davies for his service and give him a peerage, which is fair enough.
> 
> Thing is that the opposition cannot win a confidence motion right now - The Tories cannot possibly run a general election without a leader, so every single one of them will vote against. And thus there would be a hilarious prospect of the commons announcing they have confidence in a PM who is in the process of resigning.
> 
> Parliament is fun


Your post has something of the Sir Humphrey about it, when explaining the nuances of government to Bernard...


----------



## ArtDecade

A bunch of Trump supporters are looking to visit Parliament for a peaceful protest in a few weeks.


----------



## LostTheTone

r33per said:


> Your post has something of the Sir Humphrey about it, when explaining the nuances of government to Bernard...



I take that that very much as a compliment 

And the way that our government works is genuinely complex and arcane. On balance it's a good thing IMHO, but it is difficult to understand. The thing about very clear and simple structures is that it's easy to manipulate them. 

If there is a real crisis the Queen can just fire the PM and appoint someone else (her dad appointed Winston Churchill that way during the war) and that is the ultimate safety mechanism here. All the rest is pantomime.


----------



## tedtan

Bojo resigns!


----------



## Drew

I figured he'd be able to hang on until Monday or Tuesday when the 1922 committee voted. Isn't it quaint that what finally did him in was... lying about saying he didn't know something he actually did? You Brits, with your propriety and politeness. In the Trump era, that was called "Monday morning."


----------



## Louis Cypher

LostTheTone said:


> I take that that very much as a compliment
> 
> And the way that our government works is genuinely complex and arcane. On balance it's a good thing IMHO, but it is difficult to understand. The thing about very clear and simple structures is that it's easy to manipulate them.
> 
> If there is a real crisis the Queen can just fire the PM and appoint someone else (her dad appointed Winston Churchill that way during the war) and that is the ultimate safety mechanism here. All the rest is pantomime.


George VI didn't fire anyone, Chamberlain stood down due to ill health and the overwhelming majority of the coalition war government agreed to Churchill leading as he put his name fwd. The monarch cant "fire" a PM or a government that she has previously asked to govern, after a general election for example. If Parliament is advising her that confidence has been completely lost in her current government she can ask the opposition leader to form a new government. Parliament decides everything the monarch just acts on their say so. Otherwise it's down to the Torys in this case to sort a new leader out themselves. If they cant then the Queen can step in and ask the opposition. 

Appointment of prime ministers and the role of the Queen

"The Queen relies on party leaders deciding among themselves and making it clear to the Palace. If the incumbent prime minister resigns suddenly and there is no clear alternative, the Queen might turn to the leader of the opposition to attempt to form a government and test whether he or she can command confidence."


----------



## Adieu

Well, fuck

Big win for Putinists.

PS idgaf about Britain at all, he was useful globally


----------



## LostTheTone

Louis Cypher said:


> George VI didn't fire anyone, Chamberlain stood down due to ill health and the overwhelming majority of the coalition war government agreed to Churchill leading as he put his name fwd. The monarch cant "fire" a PM or a government that she has previously asked to govern, after a general election for example. If Parliament is advising her that confidence has been completely lost in her current government she can ask the opposition leader to form a new government. Parliament decides everything the monarch just acts on their say so. Otherwise it's down to the Torys in this case to sort a new leader out themselves. If they cant then the Queen can step in and ask the opposition.
> 
> Appointment of prime ministers and the role of the Queen
> 
> "The Queen relies on party leaders deciding among themselves and making it clear to the Palace. If the incumbent prime minister resigns suddenly and there is no clear alternative, the Queen might turn to the leader of the opposition to attempt to form a government and test whether he or she can command confidence."



Read the bit you quoted. The Queen can give whoever she likes the opportunity to form a government. I will concede that "appointing" isn't the same as "have a crack at gaining the confidence of the house" but if we are talking about another Tory it's unthinkable that they would vote down their own new leader.

As for Churchill - He wasn't the head of the Tory party, he wasn't even a senior government minister. But, just as above, he was offered the chance to form a government and it was unthinkable that his own party would kick him out and hold a general election. He probably wouldn't have won a leadership election though, and the smart money was on Halifax who somewhat meekly declared he couldn't possibly be a war leader from the lords. 

And whether the Queen can fire the PM is a pretty deep constitutional question - Parliament is sovereign, on behalf of the Queen. Not the PM. The recommendation of things to the crown is a power that the PM uses by convention, but only because he leads parliament and so nominally controls enough votes to not need to bother. But all of these powers are only there for the PM as long as he makes uncontroversial decisions with them. This is why prorogation was a big deal, because it wasn't at all clear he had the constitutional authority. Assuming that parliament as a whole wants Boris to go, the Queen can fire him.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Churchill was 1st lord of the admiralty and part of that war government so he was pretty senior. My point was the crown is 100% lead by Parliament, the monarch cannot make a decision independently to fire or hire a PM or dissolve a government/sitting parliament. Parliament decides and she basically rubber stamps it. She can't give whoever SHE wants a chance to form a government.


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Churchill was 1st lord of the admiralty and part of that war government so he was pretty senior. My point was the crown is 100% lead by Parliament, the monarch cannot make a decision independently to fire or hire a PM or dissolve a government/sitting parliament. Parliament decides and she basically rubber stamps it.


Never wrestle with pigs.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Back on point Gove and Raab have both ruled themselves out of the leadership contest. 

Worryingly self styled Brexit Hardman (hardcore Brexit headbanging lunatic), evangelical Christian, climate change denier Steve Baker is gonna run for the leadership... just what this country needs for the next 2 years....


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Back on point Gove and Raab have both ruled themselves out of the leadership contest.
> 
> Worryingly self styled Brexit Hardman (hardcore Brexit headbanging lunatic), evangelical Christian, climate change denier Steve Baker is gonna run for the leadership... just what this country needs for the next 2 years....


Personally I hope they bring back TMay.


----------



## Drew

Adieu said:


> Well, fuck
> 
> Big win for Putinists.
> 
> PS idgaf about Britain at all, he was useful globally


Maybe so, but what Tory PM-to-be-named-later WON'T share broadly the same platform with respect to Putin as Johnson? The biggest impact is going to be a bit of a leadership gap until a permanent replacement can be named, but I see the likelihood of the next leader of the Tories being a Putin apologist as vanishingly close to zero.


----------



## Adieu

Drew said:


> Maybe so, but what Tory PM-to-be-named-later WON'T share broadly the same platform with respect to Putin as Johnson? The biggest impact is going to be a bit of a leadership gap until a permanent replacement can be named, but I see the likelihood of the next leader of the Tories being a Putin apologist as vanishingly close to zero.



Are you kidding?

1) Boris was pretty much the face of Western anti-Putinism in 2022
2) Next bastard might take the hint
3) There's ALWAYS plenty of room negotiators and isolationists, both of the genuine ideological and the bought and paid for variety, to rear their ugly heads


----------



## Louis Cypher

Adieu said:


> Are you kidding?
> 
> 1) Boris was pretty much the face of Western anti-Putinism in 2022


You should definitely Google all of Boris connections to Russian oligarchs and former KGB agents plus the reliance of the past 20 yrs or more of the tory party on donations from Russian "business men".

As always Jonathan Pie nails everything about Boris and his parliamentary enablers and the state they have run the country in to in the last 3 years


----------



## Adieu

Louis Cypher said:


> You should definitely Google all of Boris connections to Russian oligarchs and former KGB agents plus the reliance of the past 20 yrs or more of the tory party on donations from Russian "business men".
> 
> As always Jonathan Pie nails everything about Boris and his parliamentary enablers and the state they have run the country in to in the last 3 years




If he conned them out of their money, even better.


----------



## Louis Cypher

No 'fraid not.... Johnson and a number of other Tory MPs are easy to buy, Johnson will do anything for anyone if it means he gets paid... Secret meetings as Foreign secretary and as PM with Alexander Lebedev and Johnson giving Lebedevs son a peerage to the house of lords for example... Boris burying the official report in to Russian influence in the Brexit vote and the 2019 election


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Boris is only interested in Boris. Anything good that happens to the rest of the universe as a result of his actions is just a happy accident


----------



## Louis Cypher

On BBC news tonight they were interviewing people in a "red wall" town up north that was promised Levelling Up funding 3 yrs ago and surprisingly hasn't received a penny yet, some pensioner was going mad about how she voted tory for 1st time ever and its disgusting they had stabbed Boris in the back blah blah....

Made me think that Boris and his cheerleaders will spin this resignation and the cluster fuck of the last 3(6) years to have him come out as a tragic betrayed hero... his line will be something like, I was on the verge of turning the country round, solving the cost of living crisis, fixing Brexit, beating Putin etc BUT my work was cut short, if only I had stayed the country would be enjoying unknown riches and prosperity thanks to me... phwaaa unicorns build back better Levelling Up fields of gold and rainbows something in Latin Phhwaaa!

And people will believe it! And even if the new leader turns things around Johnson is such a psychotic narcissistic that he will take credit that it only happened due to the ground work he laid in his 2 n half years as PM! As now and forever none of his fuck ups and the devastation laid on this country by him and his sycophants and enabling press will be his fault


----------



## Louis Cypher

Nearly every tory leadership candidate promising immediate tax cuts, scrapping the NI rate increase, scrapping the Corp tax rise and reducing it, cpl claiming down as far as 15% (which tbf would save me a fortune every year!!)
Funny thing being every single one of them voted in favour of the 15 separate tax rises Johnsons government introduced yet now they are desperate to distance themselves from those rises and pretend they never wanted them in the 1st place! Same game as Johnson when he convinced people in 2019 that the previous 10 yrs of tory rule were fuck all to do with HIS tory rule....

Tbf to Sunak he is the only one being even remotely realistic on tax cuts. We can have them, just not yet... bit like when he was Chancellor, you can have help for the cost of living crisis, just not yet.


----------



## Louis Cypher

All these tax cut promises when the OBR has issued this statement

UK’s ‘unsustainable’ debt could reach 320% of GDP in 50 years, OBR warns


----------



## Drew

Adieu said:


> Are you kidding?
> 
> 1) Boris was pretty much the face of Western anti-Putinism in 2022
> 2) Next bastard might take the hint
> 3) There's ALWAYS plenty of room negotiators and isolationists, both of the genuine ideological and the bought and paid for variety, to rear their ugly heads


100% serious. What other Tory, or Labor for that matter, PM contender looks likely to be softer on Putin? The whole goddam world is united against the guy right now, you think some Tory contender is going to look at what just went down and think. "hmm... the real issue here isn't the fact Johnson couldn't go ten minutes without breaking the law and lying, it was that he stood up to Putin, vocally, hoping it would distract the country from his transgressions at home. You better bet I won't make THAT mistake, I'd better start cozying up to ol' Vlad right now!"  

Antoi-Putinism is the default position of the entire Western world right now. I don't think replacing one Anti-Putinist with a less flawed Anti-Putinist is going to change that.


----------



## Louis Cypher

The tory leadership race is happening in some sort of parallel multiverse where everything that happened in the last 3 years was nothing to do with them.... Rees Moog has an article in the Daily Mail today accusing Sunak of raising taxes to "socialist" levels?!?! Wtf... his voting record shows he voted FOR every one of the 15 tory tax rises and I'm sure 30secs on YouTube will find multiple videos of him (and every other candidate promising huge tax cuts) backing every one of them for the good of the country/nhs/blah blah

Post Brexit politics and the Vote Leave Tory party is rooted in complete fantasy land


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> The tory leadership race is happening in some sort of parallel multiverse where everything that happened in the last 3 years was nothing to do with them.... Rees Moog has an article in the Daily Mail today accusing Sunak of raising taxes to "socialist" levels?!?! Wtf... his voting record shows he voted FOR every one of the 15 tory tax rises and I'm sure 30secs on YouTube will find multiple videos of him (and every other candidate promising huge tax cuts) backing every one of them for the good of the country/nhs/blah blah
> 
> Post Brexit politics and the Vote Leave Tory party is rooted in complete fantasy land


I saw a BBC article on the canditates' positions on the NI Protocol and it can basically be summed up as "where?"


----------



## Louis Cypher

I know it's a polarising issue for some (idiotic bigots mostly) and is part of the rights anti woke culture wars, but why the fecking hell are the questions around trans rights, trans women especially, being made a central part of this Tory leadership contest? Particularly by the female contenders, who seem to be desperate to show they have a hard line stance on it, and, "protecting..." "...biological" females....?? Seems trans women are being set up as the latest go to tory right wing scapegoats along with "illegal" immigrants and asylum seekers that "normal" people need to be afraid of....


----------



## _MonSTeR_

And by normal people, we of course mean, middle and upper class, white, middle aged, cis men with well paying jobs, 1.8 children and a holiday home in Devon.


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> I know it's a polarising issue for some (idiotic bigots mostly) and is part of the rights anti woke culture wars, but why the fecking hell are the questions around trans rights, trans women especially, being made a central part of this Tory leadership contest? Particularly by the female contenders, who seem to be desperate to show they have a hard line stance on it, and, "protecting..." "...biological" females....?? Seems trans women are being set up as the latest go to tory right wing scapegoats along with "illegal" immigrants and asylum seekers that "normal" people need to be afraid of....


It's been set up for a long time. See the BBC article about why trans women shouldn't be allowed in women's bathrooms due to the risk of sexual assault written by a cis woman with a history of sexually assaulting women.

The Tories did Brexit and none of them want to say Boris was an idiot for some reason, so that means that bogeyman is off the table. There's no chance that attacking gay people is viable anymore, so as such it's the turn of trans people.


----------



## Louis Cypher

The chuffing irony of Penny Mourdant today claiming the toxicity needs to be taken out of politics when she is leading the anti trans rhetoric plus the last few days she has been doubing down and defending her Brexit referendum campaign comment's in 2016 where she followed Farages racist line about the million immigrants who would come to the UK from Turkey unless we left the EU. All BS obviously but apparently it was Camerons fault she is saying.... perfect replacement for Boris she is, she has the lying and gaslighting down to an art


----------



## Louis Cypher

LOL!! Mordant has tweeted out too that she is gonna get Brexit Redone!! I thought that was one of the "Big Calls" Johnson got right as PM and his biggest accomplishment was getting Brexit Done?! But apparently Mordant says she will get it Redone...... lol!!!


----------



## _MonSTeR_

If we are going to get Brexit redone, can we get another referendum first?


----------



## Louis Cypher

The farce of this Tory leadership sumed up last night in the TV debate. Truss, who has been a member of the tory cabinet in various roles since 2014 but some of the big ones since 2019, accusing Sunak of raising taxes to 70 yr highs! Tax rises she agreed and backed by voting for them nd publicly backing them in interviews! Its insanity!! Boris has destroyed this party and left it in chaos.

Interesting that some commentators are saying Truss being pushed by the hard right in the party like the ERG, Mogg, Davies and Dorries is because they see her as basically a puppet PM for their own hardline right wing agenda - anti EU, climate change etc etc


----------



## r33per

Sir Arnold: "So, will our new PM be our eminent Chancellor or our distinguished Foreign Secretary?"
Sir Humphrey: "Well, that is what I wanted to talk to you about. Which do you think it should be?"
Sir Arnold: "Difficult. Like asking which lunatic should run the asylum."

Yes, Minister - 1984 Christmas Special.

Their prophecy has come to pass - again!!!


----------



## Louis Cypher

Highest interest rate hike in 30+ yrs, Inflation expected to hit 13%, recession is unavoidable and yet the Mail, Express, Telegraph & Sun & all the usual Right Wing commentators are all blaming the Governer of the Bank of England who they all trumpeted as being brilliant for no other reason than he was a Brexit supporter unlike evil "Remainer" Mark Carney, and yet not one of them accepts that any blame should be aimed at this Goverment, and that it's not their fault or responsibility for the fcuking skip fire that is the UK economy when, just to say it for the millionth time...... This Tory party has been in power for the LAST TWELVE YEARS..... !! In the meantime the goverment and the Tory party 6 or 7 months in to this cost of living crisis have done fcuk all to help and are too fcuking busy picking one of the 2 fcukwit leadership candidates who are too busy distancing themselves from the not only the last 12 yrs but Boris goverment as well where they both held two of the highest positions you can in goverment!!! They both live in fairy tale land when it comes to what they are promising to do to "fix" the fcukign mess THEY got us in to!! 

Apparently though according to some fcukwit caller on the radio just now, its not Boris or his goverments fault coz the rest of the world is also experiencing the same & now we are out of the EU we can start fracking and that will save our economy?!?! The US is poss worse than the UK but Brexiteer's usual fcukign nonsense that the EU and Germany and France are worse than us is the usual anti EU/Anti "Frogs" and "Krauts" fucking bullshit and of course Brexit has nothing whats so ever to do with the mess we are in, thats the only thing that is gonna save the UK apparently....... A Right wing commentator's response to Brexit being at fault by a caller "well, blame the people who voted for it.... blaming Brexit is just lazy, so many other things that have caused this..... " LOL!! Yeah lots of things have caused this as well but Brexit means the UK is suffering EVEN FCUKING WORSE!!

Another caller is on now and apprently the problems in 2022 are all Tony Blair's fault from when he was in power in 2008?!?! LOL!!


----------



## Louis Cypher

Perfectly sums up what a fucking nightmare place the UK is right now thanks to 12 yrs of tory rule, Brexit and right wing media dominance. Absolute insanity


----------



## Louis Cypher

Sums up UK political discourse, reporting and commentary this morning, a fcuking TalkSPORT pundit (Yes, TalkSPORT!) telling a current NHS Specialist Surgeon how he is worng about how NHS funding works.... seriously.... a Talk Sport radio pundit's opinion (just for context he is a Right Wing, Boris/Tory suppoerting Brexiteer twat) is apparently equal to that of a qualified Surgeon currently working in the NHS..... obviously!! ?? !!


----------



## StevenC

Oh no


----------



## Drew

So, Liz Truss, eh? I mean, her hair is better than Boris's, so as an American that's an improvement already!


----------



## Louis Cypher

Cabinet appointments so far.....
Kwasi Kwarteng chancellor
James Cleverly Foreign secretary
Suella Braverman Home Secretary
Therese Coffery Health Secretary
Penny Mourdant Leader of the Commons
Absolute dregs of the tory party left to choose from to help run the country, the 4 top jobs have gone to absolute clown hats! Hilarious and yet also fcuking scary how much lower this lot will take the UK!!

For example it being widely reported Truss 1st order of business is to bend over for all the energy firms and do what they want and have the energy price capped and then the taxpayer/gov cover the shortfalls while at the same time cutting taxes.... £100 billion of debt that energy scheme will cost rather than wind fall taxes on the record profits being made... appeasement of big business and shareholders is top priority apparently

Only tiny bit of good out of this is for the 1st time ever there is not a one white man holding any of the top jobs of state


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> For example it being widely reported Truss 1st order of business is to bend over for all the energy firms and do what they want and have the energy price capped and then the taxpayer/gov cover the shortfalls while at the same time cutting taxes.... £100 billion of debt that energy scheme will cost rather than wind fall taxes on the record profits being made... appeasement of big business and shareholders is top priority apparently


I read that too. This is, from a purely economic stance, stupid.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Drew said:


> I read that too. This is, from a purely economic stance, stupid.


It's mental. All the experts like the Institute for Fiscal Studies are calling it madness as it will cost 30 odd billion more than the covid furlough did which most of the people now in the cabinet have claimed was a waste of money that the UK couldn't afford. Mostly coz it went to the general public to keep them paid not to shareholders and Non Dom tax dodging billionaire's


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> This is, from a purely economic stance, stupid.


You've summed up the UK very thoroughly.


----------



## Louis Cypher

So also immediately after Coffey was made Health Minister abortion rights charities have come out calling the appointment "concerning"

The new health secretary is basically anti abortion and her voting record has always shown her to be for excessive restriction of abortion rights, for example in 2010 she tabled a motion to have women mentally assessed if they were seeking an abortion. 

Very concerning this sly and underhand introduction of hard line hard right beliefs with this, tbh, unrecognisable Tory party from even 8 years ago under Cameron, let alone Thatcher


----------



## Louis Cypher

Putin says Truss victory in Tory leadership vote ‘far from democratic’

worrying tbh when Putin says
" "....the way Britain chooses its leaders is “far from democratic”, a day after Liz Truss replaced Boris Johnson as prime minister. In his first public comments on Truss’s appointment, the Russian president alluded to the fact she was chosen in a leadership ballot by members of the Conservative party, not by the whole country. “The people of Great Britain don’t take part, in this instance, in the change of government. The ruling elites there have their arrangements,” "
Its that last comment that is such a dig, but also hard to argue with.... "The ruling elites there have their arrangements..."


----------



## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> So also immediately after Coffey was made Health Minister abortion rights charities have come out calling the appointment "concerning"
> 
> The new health secretary is basically anti abortion and her voting record has always shown her to be for excessive restriction of abortion rights, for example in 2010 she tabled a motion to have women mentally assessed if they were seeking an abortion.
> 
> Very concerning this sly and underhand introduction of hard line hard right beliefs with this, tbh, unrecognisable Tory party from even 8 years ago under Cameron, let alone Thatcher


Northern Ireland only had abortion made legal thanks to recent Tory governments, and it's still not available here. We currently don't have an assembly to commission those incredibly popular abortion services because our constitution is stupid. Now we've got this in the UK to do goodness knows what to compete against.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Unsurprisingly she voted against the NI abortion rights change. Apparently, she said, because she supported devolution.... wtf??


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> You've summed up the UK very thoroughly.


Most government platforms, while we're on the subject, to be fair. 



Louis Cypher said:


> Putin says Truss victory in Tory leadership vote ‘far from democratic’
> 
> worrying tbh when Putin says
> " "....the way Britain chooses its leaders is “far from democratic”, a day after Liz Truss replaced Boris Johnson as prime minister. In his first public comments on Truss’s appointment, the Russian president alluded to the fact she was chosen in a leadership ballot by members of the Conservative party, not by the whole country. “The people of Great Britain don’t take part, in this instance, in the change of government. The ruling elites there have their arrangements,” "
> Its that last comment that is such a dig, but also hard to argue with.... "The ruling elites there have their arrangements..."


Eh, I wonder if this just displays a lack of understanding of British political process more than it does a legitimate criticism, and it's just luck that makes it sound plausible. 

tl;dr - Russian experts were most surprised by the 2016 troll farm attempt to boost Trump's and hurt Clinton's candidacy not that it happened, but that it was the first time that Russian intelligence seems to have really "gotten" the US political process in even a cursory way, and that it was very surprising to see Russia try to influence voter perceptions to try to influence the outcome because, well, the democratic popular vote process was something that historically hadn't really made sense to the politiboro because they couldn't understand letting the people pick their own leaders so they assumed there must be some other process. Paraphrasing badly, but it evidently caught russian intelligence experts by surprise that they seemed to understand that voters actually do pick the President, and therefore influencing voters might be a worthwhile tactic. 

If we extrapolate, it's possible they don't necessarily have a great handle on UK politics too, in the Kremlin, and that the distinction that the people vote for seats in parliament, and whatever party or coalition of parties has the most, the head of that party has the privilege of forming a government and becoming Prime Minister, and that it's possible for the head of the party to change without a new election because it's the party and not the person who is elected, is lost on them. If so, then yeah, this must look awfully weird to the Russians who are just getting their heads around the US representative democracy - "wait, the UK is choosing a new President w_ithout even having a popular vote_?!? And they call US autocratic!!" 

Just a guess, but this could be as simple as Putin doesn't actually understand how you limey wankers end up with a Prime Minister.


----------



## StevenC

Lizz Truzz and Charles would be an absolute nightmare.


----------



## tedtan

Any news on the queen?

In the states, its being made to appear that she may be close to passing on.


----------



## tedtan

R.I.P. Elizabeth II.


----------



## StevenC

Why couldn't someone have just assassinated Charles 25 years ago?


----------



## philkilla

Damn. RIP to the classiest lady of the era.


----------



## zappatton2

Regardless of one's feelings about the monarchy, and the general sense around the legacy of colonialism has _definitely _taken a (rightfully) critical turn in the last few decades, there's no doubt in my mind nobody could have kept it running with the steady hand of Queen Elizabeth.

Rest in Peace, for all the trappings of the role, I never envied her, can't imagine what a life like that must have been like.


----------



## Alberto7

Long live the King, I guess. RIP.


----------



## StevenC

Alberto7 said:


> Long live the King, I guess.


No.


----------



## thraxil

Ugh.

I'm due for UK naturalization this year. Part of that is an obnoxious, anachronistic ceremony where I have to swear allegiance to the reigning monarch. I'm pretty opposed to the basic concept of monarchy (I'm from New England, we're still a bit salty about the Revolutionary War) but I've got to effectively hold my nose and do it at some point.

Elizabeth at leasts seemed respectable.

Now, I'm going to have to swear allegiance to... Charles...

I guess beginning my life as an official Brit with disappointment is pretty much The British Way.


----------



## Alberto7

StevenC said:


> No.


Upon hearing the news my dad told me "seems the soap opera has ended for a lot of people." My answer was "No, now is when it gets good."


----------



## spudmunkey

thraxil said:


> I guess beginning my life as an official Brit with disappointment is pretty much The British Way.



When talking about all of Great Britain, yes. If you're specifically speaking of England, "hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way"


----------



## StevenC

Alberto7 said:


> Upon hearing the news my dad told me "seems the soap opera has ended for a lot of people." My answer was "No, now is when it gets good."


With the unholy trinity of Truss, Coffey and Charles, the NHS will exclusively offer homeopathic treatment by the end of the year.


----------



## bostjan

thraxil said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I'm due for UK naturalization this year. Part of that is an obnoxious, anachronistic ceremony where I have to swear allegiance to the reigning monarch. I'm pretty opposed to the basic concept of monarchy (I'm from New England, we're still a bit salty about the Revolutionary War) but I've got to effectively hold my nose and do it at some point.
> 
> Elizabeth at leasts seemed respectable.
> 
> Now, I'm going to have to swear allegiance to... Charles...
> 
> I guess beginning my life as an official Brit with disappointment is pretty much The British Way.


Is it possible to swear allegiance to a former monarch? Maybe Richard I or King Æðelstān?


----------



## thraxil

bostjan said:


> Is it possible to swear allegiance to a former monarch? Maybe Richard I or King Æðelstān?


Specifically, I will (or would have before today) have to recite: "I (name) do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that on becoming a British Citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors, according to law"



spudmunkey said:


> When talking about all of Great Britain, yes. If you're specifically speaking of England, "hanging on in quiet desperation is the English way"



The time is gone, the song is over.

Technically though, while I will legally be British, I will never be English.


----------



## Alberto7

StevenC said:


> With the unholy trinity of Truss, Coffey and Charles, the NHS will exclusively offer homeopathic treatment by the end of the year.


Fucken' yikes. I wonder what kind of influence Charles will have on politics in this day and age.



thraxil said:


> Specifically, I will (or would have before today) have to recite: "I (name) do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that on becoming a British Citizen, I will be faithful and bear true allegiance to her Majesty Queen Elizabeth the Second, her Heirs and Successors, according to law"
> 
> 
> 
> The time is gone, the song is over.
> 
> Technically though, while I will legally be British, I will never be English.


I had to do the same thing when I got my Canadian citizenship a few years ago. It was weird.

... I also had to do that when I obtained my Spanish citizenship at age 10 or 11


----------



## Drew

thraxil said:


> Ugh.
> 
> I'm due for UK naturalization this year. Part of that is an obnoxious, anachronistic ceremony where I have to swear allegiance to the reigning monarch. I'm pretty opposed to the basic concept of monarchy (I'm from New England, we're still a bit salty about the Revolutionary War) but I've got to effectively hold my nose and do it at some point.
> 
> Elizabeth at leasts seemed respectable.
> 
> Now, I'm going to have to swear allegiance to... Charles...
> 
> I guess beginning my life as an official Brit with disappointment is pretty much The British Way.


Can you swear to the crown, rather than the man? 

But, think of the bright side - we won that war. Your swearing alliance to either the King or the Crown is a _choice_ you're making, rather than something that's required of you by virtue of where you're born. Freedom is the freedom to spend that freedom however you choose.


----------



## thraxil

Drew said:


> Can you swear to the crown, rather than the man?



I mean, I can swear allegiance to anything I want, but I suspect that not repeating the exact oath that they tell you to repeat (and that's already the non religious version; they have a variant with some God stuff in there if that's more your style--also, you have the option to do the ceremony in Welsh but I would like to keep most of my saliva in my mouth, thankyouverymuch) will just result in them not giving me citizenship. It's treated kind of like swearing someone in for office or to testify in court.



Drew said:


> But, think of the bright side - we won that war. Your swearing alliance to either the King or the Crown is a _choice_ you're making, rather than something that's required of you by virtue of where you're born. Freedom is the freedom to spend that freedom however you choose.



Yeah. Growing up as an athiest and having to recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning in school, it's really no worse. It's just that the words "King Charles the Third" are going to be a bit rougher going down.


----------



## Drew

Alberto7 said:


> Fucken' yikes. I wonder what kind of influence Charles will have on politics in this day and age.


Charles is in the news today for saying he doesn't plan to get involved in politics, in his first address to Parliament, which is almost certainly for the best. I have higher hopes for the kids.


----------



## StevenC

Drew said:


> Charles is in the news today for saying he doesn't plan to get involved in politics, in his first address to Parliament, which is almost certainly for the best. I have higher hopes for the kids.


We'll see. He's been meddling his whole life.


----------



## Drew

StevenC said:


> We'll see. He's been meddling his whole life.


True, but I mean, he'd be an idiot to SAY he was going to get involved in politics, at the first chance he got.


----------



## StevenC

We absolutely do not need to scrap 45% tax rate, corporation tax increase, and banker bonus caps.


----------



## Louis Cypher

This mini budget was all the right wing think tanks absolutest wet dream... absolutely shocking nakedly brazen budget to ensure the wealthy get wealthier. None of it will help with the cost of living or inflation, will make it worse. The Bank of England apparently will have no choice butbto up interest rates even higher because of these tax cuts. The worst part on top of all that for the wealthy is the fact that the poorest those on Universal Credit are gonna be hit with benefit cuts!

Response to it from the markets was for the pound to tank to a 37 yr low against the $ and €


----------



## Louis Cypher




----------



## Louis Cypher

As usual he completely nails it


----------



## Louis Cypher

Daming interview of the mini budget from Danny Blanchflower, a former member of a Bank of England committee

IMF critical of the mini budget and what its done, £ tanking to record lows, house prices to drop by 10%, signifcant interest rate rises, inflation due to rise even higher than the 12% it is now, banks pulling mortgage deals off the market, White House critical of the way the Truss' goverment is doing things, worlds biggest hedge fund ceo is describing the mini budget, "Mechanistically, the UK government is operating like the government of an emerging country - it is producing too much debt in a currency that there is not a big world demand for." plus loads more I could list and yet, Brexiteer nut jobs wankers like John Redwood and former Brexit Minister "Lord" - I signed up to a BS pathetic brexit deal just to get it done and then within weeks disowned it and quit because I am so useless - Frost are all saying the Gov needs to stand firm and not bow down(??) and the usual Murdoch payroll commentators like Carole Malone, who is on TV today defending it all, and twats from TalkTV defending it all and blaming anyone or thing other than Truss and Kwarteng in the face of all thats happening right in the last few days since the mini budget announcement, inc blaming the economic policies of Boris and Sunak as being so bad something drastic needed doing - coz of course those policies were all of what? 4 months ago?!?! 

The real sense of how bad it all really is, is that the Mail & Express today, after 4 days of front pages defending it all have both today got front pages that completely ignore the whole thing and talk about how how one of Stephen Lawrence's killers has a phone in prison (mail) and how there are warnings of a covid/flu epidemic this winter, so get your jabs (Express). If the Mail and Express feel that they cannot defend whats going and need to post some diversionary tactics then things really are fcuking bad!! Tbh I am surprised Megan and Harry weren't on the front page! Best is that both Truss and Kwarteng are both hiding from the press and public, though Kwarteng is apprently going to get banks on side with his budget by promising record deregulation of the sector.... exactly what is needed to help all those who are deciding between eating and heating and are poss going to lose their homes due to mortgages they can no longer afford on top of doubled energy prices even with the new cap and rising living costs

What we need is electoral reform, we need some form of Proportional Representation in UK politics. Tory's don't want it as they will never ever be in power again under PR, so why on earth Starmer is ignoring the calls for reform is beyond me, 2 party/1st past the post is dead. The Brexit Goverments in pariticular this extremist right wing gov under Truss and her cronies is proof that the BS that 1stPtP keeps extremist parties out of governing is nothing but Tory gaslighting to maintain power


----------



## Louis Cypher

Opinions on the IMF statre from some lunatics. 

Andrew Lilico Telegragh columist says in a tweet: "Embarrassed for the IMF. This is the IMF self-declaring as a left-wing body. The UK should now without its IMF contributions" LOL!!

Lord Frost: "The IMF has consistently advocated highly conventional economic policies. It is following this approach that has produced years of slow growth and weak productivity. The only way forward for Britain is lower taxes, spending restraint, and significant economic reform."

Lord Daniel Hannan: "No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer"

Crispin Odie billionaire hedge fund tycoon who apparently made a fortune in the last few days out of the £ tanking: "Remainers (in the City) who hate the Goverment.... are to blame for the run on the pound..... "


----------



## Drew

So, you brits just had your fx and sovereign markets get REAL interesting, real fast. 

tl;dr for those of you who aren't in England, or don't follow this stuff: 

*Inflation in England is, as in much of the world, high, with demand significantly outstripping supply.
*The BOE is hiking short term rates, something that's supposed to provide monetary tightening by making it more expensive to borrow, to respond to high inflation. 
*The incoming British government releases a budget thats all fiscal stimulus, notably with significant tax cuts. Fiscal stimulus puts more money in tax payers' pockets, allowing them to spend more, boosting demand.
*This is a problem - see point 1. The government and BOE are working at cross purposes. 
*Markets also see this is a problem. The pound tanked, as @Louis Cypher notes... but yields on UK sovereign bonds also surged. 
*a weakening currency and surging yields are something you normally don't see in developed market currencies, only in emerging market ones. This is because higher sovereign yields usually attract buyers, which strengthens the currency. When the currency weakens and yields rise, that usually means the market expects runaway inflation, sovereign default, or both. 

Here's where things get fun: 
*As higher yields lead t bond price losses, and as the stock market was freaking the fuck out at this time too, lots of investors lost money. Notably, a number of large UK pension funds lost money, and a good number of them were engaging in liability driven investment strategies, matching bond maturities to known liability needs, with leverage, to allow them to hedge liabilities. When these funds lost money in abnormal and unexpected ways - because no one expects the pound to behave like an emerging markets currency - they suddenly found themselves facing large margin calls. To raise funds to meet these margin calls in a challenging market, they had to sell whatever had the best liquidity, which means sovereign bonds (and, with liability-hedging strategies, you usually want extremely low risk bonds anyway, which until this week these were).
*A whole bunch of people selling sovereign bonds at once _also_ causes prices to fall and yields to rise, leading to further losses in pension funds, and further margin calls. 
*faced with the prospect of a death spiral, the BOE stepped in and started buying U sovereigns, to help stabilize their prices and stop yields from spiraling out of control. 
*while this worked, and yelds are falling today... normally we call bond buying by a central bank "quantitative easing," and it's a form of providing added stimulus to an economy. This time last week the BOE was talking about their plans to begin quantitative _tightening_ in response to high inflation, and throwing even MORE money into the monetary supply isn't going to help the inflation picture or weakness in sterling one bit. 

I have my own thoughts on the efficacy of tax cuts vs other forms of stimuus spending, but that's neither here nor there - the Truss government badly needs to blink here, and back away from tax cuts and other forms of fiscal stimulus, or they're going to risk blowing up the pound. 

Like, more than it already has.


----------



## thraxil

In the middle of this, I'm trying to get a mortgage. Literally submitted an application yesterday.

This is fine.


----------



## Louis Cypher

Drew said:


> So, you brits just had your fx and sovereign markets get REAL interesting, real fast.
> 
> tl;dr for those of you who aren't in England, or don't follow this stuff:
> 
> *Inflation in England is, as in much of the world, high, with demand significantly outstripping supply.
> *The BOE is hiking short term rates, something that's supposed to provide monetary tightening by making it more expensive to borrow, to respond to high inflation.
> *The incoming British government releases a budget thats all fiscal stimulus, notably with significant tax cuts. Fiscal stimulus puts more money in tax payers' pockets, allowing them to spend more, boosting demand.
> *This is a problem - see point 1. The government and BOE are working at cross purposes.
> *Markets also see this is a problem. The pound tanked, as @Louis Cypher notes... but yields on UK sovereign bonds also surged.
> *a weakening currency and surging yields are something you normally don't see in developed market currencies, only in emerging market ones. This is because higher sovereign yields usually attract buyers, which strengthens the currency. When the currency weakens and yields rise, that usually means the market expects runaway inflation, sovereign default, or both.
> 
> Here's where things get fun:
> *As higher yields lead t bond price losses, and as the stock market was freaking the fuck out at this time too, lots of investors lost money. Notably, a number of large UK pension funds lost money, and a good number of them were engaging in liability driven investment strategies, matching bond maturities to known liability needs, with leverage, to allow them to hedge liabilities. When these funds lost money in abnormal and unexpected ways - because no one expects the pound to behave like an emerging markets currency - they suddenly found themselves facing large margin calls. To raise funds to meet these margin calls in a challenging market, they had to sell whatever had the best liquidity, which means sovereign bonds (and, with liability-hedging strategies, you usually want extremely low risk bonds anyway, which until this week these were).
> *A whole bunch of people selling sovereign bonds at once _also_ causes prices to fall and yields to rise, leading to further losses in pension funds, and further margin calls.
> *faced with the prospect of a death spiral, the BOE stepped in and started buying U sovereigns, to help stabilize their prices and stop yields from spiraling out of control.
> *while this worked, and yelds are falling today... normally we call bond buying by a central bank "quantitative easing," and it's a form of providing added stimulus to an economy. This time last week the BOE was talking about their plans to begin quantitative _tightening_ in response to high inflation, and throwing even MORE money into the monetary supply isn't going to help the inflation picture or weakness in sterling one bit.
> 
> I have my own thoughts on the efficacy of tax cuts vs other forms of stimuus spending, but that's neither here nor there - the Truss government badly needs to blink here, and back away from tax cuts and other forms of fiscal stimulus, or they're going to risk blowing up the pound.
> 
> Like, more than it already has.


Awesome reply! 
Explains the situation better than any of the British media currently is


----------



## Louis Cypher

thraxil said:


> In the middle of this, I'm trying to get a mortgage. Literally submitted an application yesterday.
> 
> This is fine.


Shit, I hope it works out mate. Good luck


----------



## StevenC

thraxil said:


> In the middle of this, I'm trying to get a mortgage. Literally submitted an application yesterday.
> 
> This is fine.


Good luck, buddy!

I'm hoping to buy a house next year when the clot stuff comes through, so slightly hoping for a crash.


----------



## StevenC

I don't know about you guys, but I keep track of the strength of the pound via Reverb listings. Guitars are getting really expensive.


----------



## jaxadam

StevenC said:


> I'm hoping to buy a house next year when the clot stuff comes through, so slightly hoping for a crash.



What is your living situation right now?


----------



## StevenC

jaxadam said:


> What is your living situation right now?


Currently grifting off family until I am healthy to work enough to live independently again.


----------



## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> Awesome reply!
> Explains the situation better than any of the British media currently is


I sit in front of a Bloomberg terminal all day so I see a LOT of economic commentary, so it's just assimilating what I'm seeing and spitting it back out in plain english. 

It's a proper mess, though. It's funny, we got a client question the day before on the BOJ's currency intervention, the UK government and the Bank of England's committment to fight inflation, and the US situation, and while I'm less worried about the US directly (market reaction is pretty rational so far), looking at the other two about the best I could say is that with the UK pound and sovereigns trading like an emerging market economy and with the BOJ staving off a weaker yen with direct interaction, which they hadn't done in 23 years and which strongly suggests we're approaching a pain point, well... about all I could say was it really looked like we're starting to see cracks in the fundation, can't say where, but something's under a lot of stress somewhere. Better to be lucky than right, as they say. 

Now the concern is, is the BOE legitimately trying to stave off a crisis, or are they just giving Truss enough political cover to pass her economic suicide pact by staving off the worst of the carnage that might otherwise force her to stand down?


----------



## Louis Cypher

So according to reports today inc an interview with the new Levelling up minister the £45b in tax cuts is just the start and to pay for it, Britain needs to prepare for a new age of austerity, aren't we actually 12 years in to an age of austerity from Cameron and Osborne?

Also the new Home Secretary has confirmed that huge cuts to welfare budget are overdue to also help pay for the tax cuts as there are apparently far too many healthy people of working age who have "decided" to live on benefits.

Huge tax cuts for the wealthiest and big business - paid for by making the poorest even poorer. Its disgusting, and I am someone who is lucky enough in life right now to be in a position that im going to benefit from some of those tax cuts. Unlike most tho I am all too aware of how easy and quickly that can change and anyone could become the poorest through no fault of their own. But being poor according to Right Wing torys and their supporters is a choice or just laziness.... obviously....


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## mmr007

Its supposed to be comedy but its just tragic


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## Drew

Truss's government blinked, sort of. The elimination of the 45% bracket is "a needless distraction" that is now cut, but the government's credibility is shot, and they're still advocating a stimulative, debt-fueled tax cut budget, while the BOE is likely to still need to continue to engage in bond buying to keep debt manageable.


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## Louis Cypher

10 days of economic collapse and political farce and it took senior torys going public to say they would vote it down to get them to u turn. No contrition or apology for the billions lost tho, basically Truss and Kwarteng has said we are dropping it because you're all too stupid to understand what we are trying doing.... 
Tuffton St extremists are running the country


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## nightflameauto

Louis Cypher said:


> 10 days of economic collapse and political farce and it took senior torys going public to say they would vote it down to get them to u turn. No contrition or apology for the billions lost tho, basically Truss and Kwarteng has said we are dropping it because you're all too stupid to understand what we are trying doing....
> Tuffton St extremists are running the country


Consider it a sign your country is ultimately healthier than the US. In the US a tax cut for the rich makes Wall Street rally in orgasmic glee, before it all crashes later from the peons not being able to afford to buy anything because we just shoveled more money out of their pockets into people's that won't spend it on anything but their own concentrated power.


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## StevenC

nightflameauto said:


> Consider it a sign your country is ultimately healthier than the US. In the US a tax cut for the rich makes Wall Street rally in orgasmic glee, before it all crashes later from the peons not being able to afford to buy anything because we just shoveled more money out of their pockets into people's that won't spend it on anything but their own concentrated power.


We're in the middle of a historic cost of living crisis, have massive inflation and the pound hit its lowest ever.

This was all a play to let billionaires bet against the pound, in the mean time they're cutting welfare.


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## Louis Cypher

‘Not a nanny state’: minister says Britons will not be told to use less energy



Apparently Liz Truss is "..ideologically..." opposed to public information campaigns..... you know she is a hardcore fcuking lunatic when she is now even harder right than someone like Jacob Rees Mogg, who had already signed off on thie £15m campaign to off help to everyone on ways they can save money over winter on their energy bills, when the last few days charities and the National Grid has said the likelihood of 3 hour a day blackouts over winter is a very real possibility. For example I am not stupid (I like to think!) but I had no idea at all that if you keep the back of your fridge free from dust etc you use less energy as the motor doesn't have to work so hard. simple easy way to save a few quid. But apparently Liz Truss doesn't give a fcuk. But thats pretty obvious since the day after the Brexit vote in 2016.

Also, you know again Truss is mental and driving the country and the tory's off a cliff for the sake of her libertarian free market beliefs when Nadine Dorries, Nadine fcuking Dorries, is stating in interviews that she thinks the party under Liz Truss has "..lurched to the right..."??
"
*Ms Dorries, who supported Liz Truss during the leadership election, told the Times: "You don't win elections by lurching to the right and deserting the centre ground for Keir Starmer to place his flag on.
"If we continue down this path, we absolutely will be facing a Stephen Harper-type wipeout. I'm sure [the prime minister has] listened and will stop and rethink."*
"
Love she thinks that the Boris Brexit gov was holding the political Centre ground! LOL!


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## Drew

Louis Cypher said:


> you know she is a hardcore fcuking lunatic when she is now even harder right than someone like Jacob Rees Mogg, who had already signed off on thie £15m campaign to off help to everyone on ways they can save money over winter on their energy bills, when the last few days charities and the National Grid has said the likelihood of 3 hour a day blackouts over winter is a very real possibility.


To be fair, of all the MANY thinga you can fault Truss for, the prospect of rolling blackouts this winter has almost nothing to do with Truss, and everything to do with Putin trying to make energy as uncomfortable a topis as possible for Europe this winter.

It's going to almost certainly happen regardless of what Britons do, and pressuring them to conserve, right after passing a bill to help cap energy costs, is going to both send a very confusing message, and be politically very unpopular.


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## Louis Cypher

Taken a little while but the Government and their attack dogs in the right wing media have finally found a scapegoat to blame all everything that's happened in the last few weeks on..... apparently none of it is anything to do with the mini budgets £45bn unfunded tax cuts, or as Rees Mogg called it, "...a minor part of fiscal policy..."

It's all the fault of the BoE, and global interest rates, not the government or the budget and taxcuts funded by thin air. Nothing to do with Truss and Kwarteng at all, whats so ever, nothing to see here, move along, move along.... funnily this new line of attack started when the BoE said its help to sure up the economy would end on the 14th October....


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## StevenC

I hate these people


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## Louis Cypher

Looks like project *Save Little Liz* has started today. Kwarteng sacked. Hunt (one of the worst Health Secretary's ever and repeated leadership loser) is the new Chancellor and more U-turns on that mini budget that wasn't anything to do with the financial meltdown the UK has experience since the mini budget announcement......


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## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Looks like project *Save Little Liz* has started today. Kwarteng sacked. Hunt (one of the worst Health Secretary's ever and repeated leadership loser) is the new Chancellor and more U-turns on that mini budget that wasn't anything to do with the financial meltdown the UK has experience since the mini budget announcement......


You love to see it.

Never thought I'd see competition for "Worst Female Prime Minister", but here we are.


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## sleewell

oh man the live feed of what will last longer between truss and a head of lettuce is pretty funny. she is in a huge mess by the looks of it, thought i saw something like a 7 or 9% favorable rating which is pretty crazy.


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## Andromalia

Well, the good thing about this is, when I lament about the french politicians, I can comfort myself with the fact that there are worse cases in other places.


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## Captain Shoggoth

Goodbye Kwasi! Another token black Tory pushed onto his sword at the first sign of trouble having behaved no different to his peers (eg Shaun Bailey, Lord Taylor). It practically writes itself at this point



Louis Cypher said:


> Opinions on the IMF statre from some lunatics.
> 
> Andrew Lilico Telegragh columist says in a tweet: "Embarrassed for the IMF. This is the IMF self-declaring as a left-wing body. The UK should now without its IMF contributions" LOL!!
> 
> Lord Frost: "The IMF has consistently advocated highly conventional economic policies. It is following this approach that has produced years of slow growth and weak productivity. The only way forward for Britain is lower taxes, spending restraint, and significant economic reform."
> 
> Lord Daniel Hannan: "No, the pound isn’t crashing over a trifling batch of tax cuts. It’s because the markets are terrified of Starmer"
> 
> Crispin Odie billionaire hedge fund tycoon who apparently made a fortune in the last few days out of the £ tanking: "Remainers (in the City) who hate the Goverment.... are to blame for the run on the pound..... "



Dan Hannan is a fucking peer now? Jesus wept.


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## StevenC

Now Coffey wants to make antibiotics available without a doctor's visit. That's the worst fucking idea. Antibiotics are one of humanities most powerful inventions, but only as long as we're careful with our use of them.

Fucking moron.


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## Louis Cypher

Then came this





And now today this! LOL!!!! 




".... The first sentence of its lead story packs a punch too, calling the PM's "first 38 days in office... some of the most shambolic in British political history" LOL!!!! 

You know you have fcuked up BAD!! as a tory PM when even the DM front page is the same as the Mirrors! Only the Express is pathetically carrying on their support of her


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## Louis Cypher

Right Wing press and commentators have now started pushing for Boris to come back, that he is the only one who can "fix" the country! LOL!! fcuking farcical, worst bit tho is they are trying to rewrite what happened less than 6 months ago by pushign the BS that Boris ousting was undemocratic as he had a mandate from the 2019 election, even tho it wasn't undemocratic when he was behind the revolt to push May out, and there was no issue (as per the front pages above) with Truss coming in and ripping up Boris 2019 mandate for her "Trussonomics" and her "...*TRUE* Tory Budget!"

Desperation from the right and the Tory's party to save itself is pitiful and pathetic, they are just desperate NOT to have a general election, coz any election any time soon wil wipe the Tory's out for a generation (hopefully)

This is funny tho from the Guardian today:


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## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Well, the good thing about this is, when I lament about the french politicians, I can comfort myself with the fact that there are worse cases in other places.


I was _wondering_ how long it would take for The French Guy Who Only Posts To Shit On The British to show up.


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## sleewell

"no the prime minister is not under a desk"



classic.


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## Andromalia

We


Drew said:


> I was _wondering_ how long it would take for The French Guy Who Only Posts To Shit On The British to show up.


Well, 5 months since my last post on this topic. You sure have been waiting a long time.


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## Drew

Andromalia said:


> Well, 5 months since my last post on this topic. You sure have been waiting a long time.


Yeah, but only about a week since the Truss government imploded amidst a currency and sovereign yield scandal.


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## Louis Cypher

Wow, one of the best descriptions of what an utter farce the tory party is, by a tory


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## JSanta

Well, that was quick: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/20/uk-liz-truss-resign-prime-minister/


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## sleewell

lol the lettuce won. wish trump would have went out that quickly.


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## Drew

Chalk one up for leafy greens.  

Of course, the last time something like this happened it was Brexit, and a couple months later we had our "Hey England, hold my beer!" moment. I hope THAT trend doesn't hold.


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## Louis Cypher

Calls for Truss to decline ex-PMs’ £115,000 annual grant

So for 44 days work as PM, in which she has trashed the economy, tanked the pound, left a £40b+ hole in gov funding, u-turned on most of her pledges plus 2019 manifesto pledges, inflation over 10%, mortgage rates at a 14 yr high and ushering in yet another era of austerity, as a now former Prime Minster she is entitled to claim a grant (which I assume means that its tax free) of up to £115k... A YEAR!! FOR THE REST OF HER LIFE?!?!? I mean seriously wtf??

Also her (very short) resignation speech, no apologies just arrogance and like a lot of the time she constantly looked like she was gonna laugh.... genuinely think she is out of touch with reality in quite a worrying way

The Mail and The Express have been pushing this for the last few days too and from his holiday in the Caribbean he has said he will run........


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## Louis Cypher

Article on the Guardian website about how the Right Wing papers are now desperately backpedling after throwing all their weight behind her to be PM and her policies

Rightwing papers backpedal after helping Liz Truss reach No 10

"
The Daily Telegraph also enthusiastically backed Truss, declaring she was the “competent and proficient” candidate who is “ready to assume the highest political office in the land”.

The Daily Express went further, saying: “Thanks partly to her long involvement with centre-right thinktanks, no one at the top of her party has a better understanding of policy development, or a deeper knowledge of the British state and its failings.”

Allister Heath, the editor of the Sunday Telegraph, went further and declared Kwasi Kwarteng’s mini-budget to be a “moment in history that will radically transform Britain”.

“The neo-Brownite consensus of the past 20 years, the egalitarian, redistributionist obsession, the technocratic centrism, the genuflections at the altar of a bogus class war, the spreadsheet-wielding socialists: all were blown to smithereens by Kwarteng’s stunning neo-Reaganite peroration,” he wrote.
"
Wtf kind of word vomit is that from the Sunday Telegragh editor?? But The Mail, The Express and The Sun are all to blame (for many many things over the last 30 yrs let alone since 2016 or the last few months!!) for where this country is right now

Regarding Boris becoming PM again a couple of callers in to shows this mornign all claiming that Boris is the only man who can reunite the country and fix it all, yet each was asked what they liked about him 1st time round and what he got done they liked and apart from the usual vague BS that he got Brexit done and support for Ukraine, they all said they couldn't explain but they had "..faith.." in him..... how terrifying.... This is faith in a man who is a current serving MP for Uxbridge who is on holiday while Parliment is currently in session and has missed how many votes? Inc the 3 line whip vote on Fracking on Weds, which apparently any MP who didn't vote for the Gov line in would lose the whip.... yet he is poss gonna be the front runner along with Rishi....


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## Drew

I only worry because the last time you Brits did something so unbelievable, we all said "hold my beer," and promptly elected Trump.


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## Andromalia

Drew said:


> Yeah, but only about a week since the Truss government imploded amidst a currency and sovereign yield scandal.


It's not my fault if the last 10 years of british politics have been Collector Edition grade. How do you want me to NOT go "lolmao" when I hear that one of the candidates for replacing Liz Truss is effing _Boris Johnson_.



> she constantly looked like she was gonna laugh


If I got paid 100K/year for life for 44 days of faulty work, I'd have a good laugh, too.


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## thraxil

Andromalia said:


> If I got paid 100K/year for life for 44 days of faulty work, I'd have a good laugh, too.


If we keep letting the Tories run the economy, at least that 100k will only be worth about three Euros pretty soon.


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## mmr007




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## Drew

Andromalia said:


> It's not my fault if the last 10 years of british politics have been Collector Edition grade. How do you want me to NOT go "lolmao" when I hear that one of the candidates for replacing Liz Truss is effing _Boris Johnson_.
> 
> 
> If I got paid 100K/year for life for 44 days of faulty work, I'd have a good laugh, too.


I'm merely saying it would be a more interesting comment from someone who hadn't been saying the same thing, and ONLY the same thing, as long as I can remember on these boards.  

Boris is a moron, and thankfully realized it in time to drop out.


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## thraxil

Jacob Rees-Mogg is out, so at least some good is coming from all this.


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## Louis Cypher

Incredible dog whistle front page from the Daily Mail.... how the fcuk do they get away with this? What I love though is the former PM they faun all over, Boris, is actually one of those 10m UK residents born outside the UK, in fact half the people who have or are cabinet ministers since 2019 have partners or parents who fall in to this 10m born outside the UK figure..... but the MAil doesn't mean them obviously, its another look over here and get angry about all these "illegal" migrants who are all criminals and gang members, don't look here at the fails asylum process, and def try to forget about the cost of living crisis and that taxes are gonna rise and energy bill poverty or out of control inflation..... just get angry about black or brown foreigners as its all their fault your life is so sh1t, not 12 yrs of Tory rule


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## StevenC

Louis Cypher said:


> Incredible dog whistle front page from the Daily Mail.... how the fcuk do they get away with this? What I love though is the former PM they faun all over, Boris, is actually one of those 10m UK residents born outside the UK, in fact half the people who have or are cabinet ministers since 2019 have partners or parents who fall in to this 10m born outside the UK figure..... but the MAil doesn't mean them obviously, its another look over here and get angry about all these "illegal" migrants who are all criminals and gang members, don't look here at the fails asylum process, and def try to forget about the cost of living crisis and that taxes are gonna rise and energy bill poverty or out of control inflation..... just get angry about black or brown foreigners as its all their fault your life is so sh1t, not 12 yrs of Tory rule


Literal on step from incitement


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## Louis Cypher

Albanian PM Edi Rama absolutely nails the state of UK, or English politics should I say, post Brexit. 
Shocking how mainstream racism and zenophobic anti migrant/asylum seeker rhetoric has now become. Fcuking disgusting


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## Louis Cypher

Home Secretary has her pants pulled down by another Tory MP over immigration and she confirms the truth that there is *NO* "legal" route for asylum seekers & refugees in to the UK, question is IU suppose is she so fcuking stupid she doesn't understand one of the main points of her role as Home Secretary or she just doesn't care, coz lazy right wing anti immigration rhetoric is a vote winner with the tory base


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## sleewell

You have to be mad at immigrants bc if you were mad at the appropriate people something might actually change for the better for most people which is their worst fear. 

Same thing happened here. Demonize unions. Convince people that immigrants are the problem. If we lower the corp tax rates and the rates for highest income tax brackets the money will eventually trickle down. Look away from the rich stealing at the highest rates ever and blame the poor folks willing to work jobs most of us would never consider. If you blame the wrong people you don't have to increase wages to match inflation and the wealth just keeps transferring to those who already have the most. 

The fact that they keep getting a large chunk of people to fall for it and repeatedly voting against their own interests is really quite astounding.


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## Andromalia

sleewell said:


> The fact that they keep getting a large chunk of people to fall for it and repeatedly voting against their own interests is really quite astounding.


Not really. Communication is now understood well enough that it's close to a science, where effort on point X will result in yield on point Z in a vast majority of contexts. Entire models have evolved to prey on specific weaknesses, bias and emotional responses of the population that is the cheapest to manipulate: the uneducated, who often endup being the poor, even though they sometimes endup as POTUS because, $$$ inheritance.
It is therefore not astounding at all: this is an engineered result, and the victims can't get out of the trap by themselves since it's beed designed specifically around them. The move towards populist governments is mostly the result of media in general becoming much cheaper to use than they were before so you can hammer messages reaching billions for almost free. You just need to spend enough so you can fool the amount you miss to win the election. (In general terms, women, minimum wage families and non-white people voting for Trump, etc) You don't need to get all of them, you just need to get the cheapest ones to convince.


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## Louis Cypher




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## sleewell

Brexit fascinates me as an outsider and I'm very curious how it will be remembered in 50 or 100 years. Has there ever been another situation where a country convinced their citizens to vote to intentionally make themselves poorer? They really convinced a slim majority of the people it was going to be great and all of the lies maybe seemed believable enough on the surface if you didn't know enough or think that hard. Vote with your feelings instead of the facts. Label the people warning you of the downsides as doom and gloom project fear so you can ignore what they said that eventually came true.

It's crazy how they went from calling it project fear to saying they knew it was going to make them poorer when they voted. That shift is astonishing when you think about it. Denial is a very strong emotion. As everything is crumbling around you they morph their arguments into something almost nonsensical but they still cling to the feelings that got them there instead of questioning maybe it was all lies. 

Super hard to admit you got conned.


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## tedtan

sleewell said:


> Has there ever been another situation where a country convinced their citizens to vote to intentionally make themselves poorer?


It happens every time a non-one percenter votes for a republican here in the States.


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## Louis Cypher

As usual, he is spot on!

All the problems in the UK right now are all the fault of Nurses, Postmen, Cleaners & Ambulance drivers, Ohh and of course immigrants, obviously, even though 4 people have died over night in the channel *SOLELY BECAUSE* of the UK's immigration policy, which just got even harsher today. Any one arriving "illegally" will be arrested now and returned to either their country of origin or the last country they left and will be refused any subsequent attempt to enter the UK and any future asylum claim..... inhumane, utterly inhumane and boardline evil all to keep the racists fcukwits and the right wing press happy. Tories don't wanna fix immigration anyway, its too much of a vote winner to keep it so sh1t and to keep people angry to then keep promising they are the only party who can fix it


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## Louis Cypher

More on the Home Secretary commons speech on Immigration..... baring in mind she says this on the day more people died trying to cross the channel......
From the Guardian:
Guardian Live: Commons feed

*Home secretary Suella Braverman has said that proposed legislation to deter Channel crossings “will save lives”.*
She said:



> _We will introduce new legislation to make it unambiguously clear that if someone comes to the UK illegally, they should not be able to remain here.
> Instead, they can expect to be detained and swiftly returned either to their home country or to a safe country, where their claim for asylum will be considered.
> Late or spurious claims and appeals will not be possible. Once someone has been removed, they will have no right to re-entry, settlement or citizenship.
> 
> This will act as a deterrent and it will save lives._



Her are some comments on this:
*Enver Solomon, chief executive of the Refugee Council, has said in a statement that deterrence does not work.*
He said:



> _The time for a more rational conversation about these Channel crossings is long overdue. At every turn, those who can take meaningful steps to address it in ways which will make a difference simply decline to do so.
> *Instead of taking compassionate and careful measures, they turn instead to rhetoric and bluster, and choose unworkable punitive measures and deterrence despite all the evidence that they just don’t work.* That evidence is never more apparent than today, with lives lost, hopes and dreams shattered, families in mourning._



*Zehrah Hasan, advocacy director at the joint council for the welfare of immigrants (JCWI), has issued a statement calling for clearer visa pathways to prevent people risking their lives.*



> _Last November we saw 31 people lose their lives in the Channel, and now we’re seeing history tragically repeat itself. *Let’s be clear that these disasters are utterly avoidable, and a direct consequence of government failure to take a fair, compassionate and sensible approach to refugee protection.*
> 
> People would not be risking their lives seeking safety here if there were clear visa pathways available to them. To prevent further avoidable tragedy, this government needs to stop playing politics with people’s lives and introduce the safe routes needed._



*Medecins Sans Frontières* *has shared its response to the tragedy, in which it urges the government to ensure incidents like this do not happen again by avoiding a deterrence-based approach to asylum-seekers.*

Natalie Roberts, executive director at MSF UK, said:



> _We are distressed to hear reports of a shipwreck in the Channel, where it has been confirmed that at least four people have lost their lives. Our thoughts are with the victims of this disaster, and the emergency services that are working to rescue the survivors.
> The government needs to now take urgent measures to ensure tragedies like this do not happen again.
> This means recognising that a *cruel and punitive approach, such as that outlined by the *_*prime *_*minister yesterday*, will not stop Channel crossings and will simply cause more suffering. As the Home Office’s own research shows, an approach built on deterrence only pushes desperate people into yet more dangerous routes. Men, women and children seeking safety will be forced into make even riskier journeys to get here, causing harm to their health and wellbeing, and inevitably resulting in more deaths.
> The horrific incident that occurred in the Channel today was a consequence of a lack of safe routes. The prime minister’s proposals would effectively end the right for people fleeing war, persecution and violence to seek asylum in the UK, breaking with the refugee convention and shirking our international legal and moral obligations._


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## Louis Cypher




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## sleewell

can i ask how James O'Brien is viewed over there? i am a huge fan of his. i wish we had someone like him over here.


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## Louis Cypher

sleewell said:


> can i ask how James O'Brien is viewed over there? i am a huge fan of his. i wish we had someone like him over here.


I am a huge fan too, his two books are so good and his show is the most popular by a mile on LBC. The journey that he details in his 2nd book from being, tbh a real priviledged prick who was quite right wing and offensive about everything, to the person he is today is really incredible.
Unfortunatley he is one of the few people speaking truth to power over here and that puts him in the minority, even on LBC, so he isn't at all popular with politicians or the mainstream rightwing papers & commentators, he rarely if ever appears on opinion type phone in shows or Question time not cause he won't but coz he is too honest and cuts thru the political/right wing games, that they don't want him
As he always says he just holds a mirror up to people, it not his fault if you don't like what you see. Amongst some others he should be required listening imo. BBC desperately need him back!


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## Louis Cypher

Brexit summed up perfectly. Businesses explaining the truth of what a mess it is now compared to when we were in the Single Market vs a Hardline Tory Brexit Headbanger and their BS


----------

