# Trapezoid Neck Profile from Rick Toone



## animalsasleader (Mar 3, 2011)

Hey Guys,
I have a custom headless fanned-frett 8 string being built by StrandbergGuitarworks. I first saw these guitars thanks to Chris Letchford of Scale the Summit. I got in contact with Ola Strandberg and we met in person at NAMM 2011. His guitars are light and extremely comfortable to play. I noticed that I didn't have to do any work to get the guitar in a optimal playing position (it basically positions itself!)
This build is going to be very unique for a few reasons, one of which is the trapezoidal neck profile. 
These necks are patented by Luthier Rick Toone. At first glance they seem very unconventional, but upon playing them I found them to be extremely comfortable. Both Ola Strandberg and Rick Toone are luthiers very much concerned with ergonomics and reducing stress on joints, tendons, muscles etc. while playing. Rick was awesome enough to send me 4 different template neck profiles to audition before I choose one for the guitar. Here's what he sent me..
Needless to say I'm very excited to get this guitar. These guys represent what I really appreciate about custom instruments. A progressive minded approach to the guitar!


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## OrsusMetal (Mar 3, 2011)

I'd be very interested to try one of those. I've thought about modding one of my own necks and attempting this profile. I don't know if I will get around to it though. 

I'd love to order a Strandberg here this next year.


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## scherzo1928 (Mar 3, 2011)

Last week when I was carving my neck, it gave it a trapezoid shape for a while, just to get an idea of what it feels like, and I actually liked it quite a lot. Ended up making it into a "normal shape" afterwards though.

About the specs, why have 2 more frets on the lowest strings?


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## nojyeloot (Mar 3, 2011)

Amazing. What a guy


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## SirMyghin (Mar 3, 2011)

This one should prove exciting these trapezoidal profiles have had my interest piqued for a while now. As does Toone's proposed headless hardware.


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## Winspear (Mar 3, 2011)

Very nice 
I am interested in the extended low string. Is that for drop shaped tunings retaining string tension with normal sets of strings and standard fretting positions?


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## elq (Mar 3, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> As does Toone's proposed headless hardware.



The headless hardware is from Ola Strandberg Strandberg Guitarworks » Blog Archive » Baritone Hybrid Neck Prototype

Rick Toones headless hardware is a bit different Intonation Adjustable Nut (Production Testing) - RICK TOONE | LUTHIER


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## darren (Mar 3, 2011)

The extended-scale bottom string is very interesting... kind of like on the Kubicki Ex-Factor basses. If i ever build a headless, i'm definitely going to Ola Strandberg for the hardware.


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## UnderTheSign (Mar 3, 2011)

darren said:


> The extended-scale bottom string is very interesting... kind of like on the Kubicki Ex-Factor basses. If i ever build a headless, i'm definitely going to Ola Strandberg for the hardware.


Same here, that's what I'll be doing this summer. I've exchanged some emails with Ola and read a lot on his (and Ricks) website, they're great guys with an interesting view on musical instruments. Especially Rick Toone and his strange, ergonomic designs. Very interesting reads.


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## technomancer (Mar 3, 2011)

Merged the threads and cleaned it up 

I'm looking forward to seeing this 8 when it's finished. Very cool that he sent you sample neck profiles to try, that would really help taking the plunge on something like this.


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## Miek (Mar 3, 2011)

Have you decided which profile you're going to go with?


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## JamesM (Mar 3, 2011)

Strandberg guitars are easily among the most beautiful ever made. I can't wait to see it and seethe with jealousy.


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## Empryrean (Mar 4, 2011)

How curious, I actually e-mailed Rick about that same neck idea; so ask permission to try replicating it...no reply so far


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## Durero (Mar 4, 2011)

Rick Toone has not patented the the _functionality_ of this neck profile, only it's cosmetic appearance. He holds a design patent for it, not a utility patent.



Wikipedia said:


> In the United States, a design patent is a patent granted on the ornamental design of a functional item. Design patents are a type of industrial design right. Ornamental designs of jewelry, furniture, beverage containers and computer icons are examples of objects that are covered by design patents.
> 
> US utility patents protect the functionality of a given item. Design patents cover the ornamental nonfunctional design of an item. Design patents can be invalidated if the design has practical utility (e.g. the shape of a gear).



His design patent can be viewed here.

I'm a big fan of Rick's and I love his innovative thinking and especially his ergonomic body shapes, but I question his intentions concerning the design patent of this neck profile. I can find nothing on his site where he states that his patent is a design patent rather than a utility patent. Indeed his site emphasizes the functional advantages of this neck profile which can easily give the impression that his patent covers the functional aspects of the profile when in fact it does not.

The prior art for this neck profile is decades old. Emmett Chapman has been using this shape on his Stick instruments since the 1970's. For example:






Again I want to emphasize that I greatly admire Rick Toone's creative and forward-thinking instrument designs. I sincerely hope his Trapezoidal Neck Profile is successful in promoting awareness and use of this alternative neck design which Stick players have been enjoying for many years. I'm concerned that the information on his website may have the effect of spreading FUD about this neck profile and discouraging other luthiers from using it freely.


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## ElRay (Mar 4, 2011)

Durero said:


> I'm a big fan of Rick's and I love his innovative thinking and especially his ergonomic body shapes, but I question his intentions concerning the design patent of this neck profile. I can find nothing on his site where he states that his patent is a design patent rather than a utility patent. Indeed his site emphasizes the functional advantages of this neck profile which can easily give the impression that his patent covers the functional aspects of the profile when in fact it does not.


I've got mixed feelings about this too. From a legal standpoint, it had to be a "design patent" (Like the shape of a coke bottle), because I doubt a utility patent would be awarded/hold-up in court because:
There's plenty of Prior Art
He published details about it, on the web, before he started the patent process
It's unconventional, but it's not that unique that it would really support more than a utility patent
It loses the true "design advantage" once you leave the realm of narrow/thick necked guitars[1]
So he is better off (legally) trying to "trademark" it, like the design of a "Coke" bottle, via a design patent. I think he's still on shaky ground regarding the design patent, because (I think) the first two items still apply to design patents and his web postings are another shot in the foot, due to the fact that anybody he might sue, could cite Rick's own words against him are argue that the "trademarked" trapezoidal neck actually has functional advantages, which would invalidate the design patent.

Given that, I still did "ask permission" (3rd quarter 2009) to use the profile in the build I was planning to start after my return from Afghanistan. Not because I felt I had any legal or moral obligation to do so, but more out of courtesy/respect. I've had a "decent" amount of interaction with Rick in the early (pre-eLutherie.org self-destruction) days of BuildingTheErgonomicGuitar, so I have a decent amount of respect for his designs, craftsmanship and (small-L) libertarian ideals, but I am a bit disappointed that he so quickly resorted to the very un-libertarian tactic of using the federal government to lock-out potential competiters from using a design idea that is far from unique. But then again, given the Fender/Gibson/PRS/Ibanez, "The pick-up designer named Bill Lawrence"/"Bill Lawrence" Brand pick-ups, Schechter Celloblaster/"The Maestro", and (for those of you into wood working) Bill Pentz/Oneida Dust Deputy legal hooplas, I can see the "value" in obtaining the patent, even if he has very liberal licensing terms. 

Like Leo, I have a concern that one day he'll pull a Fender/Gibson or even a "Novax" (Using the threat of a patent violation suit as an extortion tool to get licensing that isn't really covered by the patent.[2]). If you're a luthier and want to use the trapezoidal neck profile, I'd license the design or start collecting all the prior art examples (including Rick's own pre-patent application posts) and save them "just in case".

Ray

[1]The best advantage of the aluminum tube/Trapezoidal profile is in a four-string bass neck. When you start pushing 7, 8, 9 strings on a guitar (or wider string spacing on a six) with typical guitar neck thicknesses, the advantage is reduced because you have to go to narrower tubes and as long as the "high string side" of the neck doesn't interfere with your hand coming around the side of the neck and fretting, the exact profile really doesn't matter.

[2]Novax had a trademark on the term "Fanned Fret" and a patent on a faulty (only worked when the strings were parallel) method for laying-out compound scaled instruments, but he allowed his business manager to extort licensing fees from anybody that used any method to lay-out compound scales. To add insult to injury, when luthiers paid the licensing fee, they weren't even taught Novax's patented method, but the obvious parallel-scale method.


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## vansinn (Mar 4, 2011)

I find this discussion very interesting, partly because I've often paid Toone's site a visit for the great info there, and partly because I too find patents somewhat problematic, so say the least..
Please excuse me for possibly going offtopic in the following.

Obtaining a patent on a unique idea, design, method et al.. can often be defended; however, I've more than often seen patents on fairly special ideas, for which only a faily limited market exists, result in acceptance limitations.
Even taking out a trademark on a concept can be dangerous, as examplified by Ormsby, who tried trademaring his fanned design, IIRC, even only in Australia, and lost much respect on tis ground.

Interestingly, in order to obtain a patent on somethig not totall new and unseen of, the concept must be documented fairly detailed, which means a large enterprice can simply annect and fork the concept, after which the small, maybe single person, operation may find the legal fight almost mission impossible.

Just as we have Open Source in the software business, there's the Open Hardware License, which exists not to prevent use of registered technology, but to ensure the creators riht to fame and actually stimulate free usage.
This works because businesses freely handing out ideas and concept recieves more orders due to the self-advertizing effect of this mechanism.

I would so love to see more use of such mechanisms, instead of ideas (at least partly) closed in patents.

However, I find it's great that Toone shares quite a lot of very useful info on his designs and ideas, like in his http://www.toone-townsend.com/2009/12/neck-core-installation.html and http://www.toone-townsend.com/townsend/2009/12/neck-design-theory.html pages.


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## ElRay (Mar 9, 2011)

Re-reading this, I can see how this might be taken as "harsh", since there's no facial/tonal queues. That was not my intent. I was going to edit my post, but too much time has past.

I have a lot of respect for Rick as a luthier, and I chose to ask permission to use the TNP, and would license it, if I were a professional luthier, purely out of respect. That said, from a purely rational point of view, I can see the patent being tough to defend if a suit was filed.

Also, the comment about reduced utility was in reference to the original aluminum tube core TNP. A neck nearly 1-1/2" thick is OK for a four string bass, but not so good for a wide-6, 7 or 8 string neck. The more recent solid wood with graphite, truss rods, uni-flex carbon sheets, etc. necks work well with the thinner cross sections typically needed with wider necks.

The whole Novax Extortion and Ormsby "Everybody's copying me, even those that did it before I published anything to the web" rants over at Project Guitar and other sites, really got under my skin and I was definitely curmudgeonly in my reply. I don't expect Rick to pull a Novax/Ormsby/Fender/Gibson; however, I do too much CYA archiving of emails, IM's, PDF's, etc. to not immediately start thinking about archiving "evidence" just in the event (no matter how unlikely) that something goes south.

Ray


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## darren (Mar 10, 2011)

If i'm not mistaken, the Rick Toone stumbled on his trapezoidal neck profile in the process of experimenting with embedding a hollow square aluminum tube in his necks. The trapezoidal shape was the only reasonable carve that would allow that to happen. 

I use a soft partial bevel on the upper bass side of my neck carve, which helps give a place to anchor your thumb when moving in to the higher register, and gives the player a little more reach across the fretboard.


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## ElRay (Mar 10, 2011)

darren said:


> If i'm not mistaken, the Rick Toone stumbled on his trapezoidal neck profile in the process of experimenting with embedding a hollow square aluminum tube in his necks. The trapezoidal shape was the only reasonable carve that would allow that to happen.


The first time Rick blogged about the TNP, the profile and aluminum tube core were presented together. That was the basis for my reduced utility comment. If you use a TNP with more traditional neck construction, you can get back into the realm of thinner necks.

Ray


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## Empryrean (Mar 13, 2011)

So _basically_ I can still try making the profile even though he hasn't given me the 'go' on it; as long as I don't say it IS _his_ trapezoidal profile?


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## hevie7 (Mar 21, 2012)

Spoke with Rick !!! Very informative and helpful in the questions I asked. His builds are out of this WORLD!


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