# Harley Benton G412 Vintage opinions



## markbolwell54 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi Folks,

Has anyone tried a Harley Benton G412 Vintage cab?

Its loaded with V30 speakers and is cheap as chips! Surley its too good to be true?


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## KoenDercksen (Nov 6, 2010)

Heard good and bad stuff about them, surely they're cheap for a reason... V30's go for 70 pounds new, and I saw a 2x12 HB with V30's for about 200 euro's. So it's like, you pay for the speakers and the rest is scrapwood?


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## Rook (Nov 6, 2010)

It is, please don't buy this cab or anything else with Harley Benton written on it, it's awful.

The used market is a buyer's one at the moment, you can get some great deals. I've seen some Marshall, Framus and H&K cabs going for silly money recently.


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 6, 2010)

Fun111 said:


> It is, please don't buy this cab or anything else with Harley Benton written on it, it's awful.
> 
> The used market is a buyer's one at the moment, you can get some great deals. I've seen some Marshall, Framus and H&K cabs going for silly money recently.


 
Apparently the HB cabs are made by the same people as Framus cabs! Have you tried the particular cab I am talking about? I am really skeptical about it but have read good things about it! 16mm ply, acoustic damping foam inside, real V30's.


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## KoenDercksen (Nov 6, 2010)

How the fuck can it be that cheap then? Why do you think Orange, Mesa and the like cabs are so expensive? Not just for the brand name.


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 6, 2010)

KoenDercksen said:


> How the fuck can it be that cheap then? Why do you think Orange, Mesa and the like cabs are so expensive? Not just for the brand name.


 
For the same reason BMW's are more expensive, for the same reason brand name foods are more expensive than the home brand which comes of the same production line! Mugs out there pay it without investigating! Personally i like objective evidence on whether something is good or bad rather than the "its expensive so its must be good" attitude!


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 6, 2010)

KoenDercksen said:


> How the fuck can it be that cheap then? Why do you think Orange, Mesa and the like cabs are so expensive? Not just for the brand name.



Actually, that's what a lot of it really is: the name, along with retail markup, and the labor costs. Even the "best" plywood (the material in all the "high end" cabs you mentioned) is very cheap, as are OEM and wholesale speakers, especially now that Celestion is making a lot of their stuff in China. 

Do you think Orange, Mesa, Bogner, etc. are using "special" plywood? Special tolex? Special speakers? Nope. 

What those companies do have, is a design and years of experience proving the quality of that design. Unfortunately for them, speaker cab designs aren't patented. Tons of smaller cab makers make verbatim copies of those respected cabs, often for cheaper and with a level of customization that the larger shops simply don't do.


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 6, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Actually, that's what a lot of it really is: the name, along with retail markup, and the labor costs. Even the "best" plywood (the material in all the "high end" cabs you mentioned) is very cheap, as are OEM and wholesale speakers, especially now that Celestion is making a lot of their stuff in China.
> 
> Do you think Orange, Mesa, Bogner, etc. are using "special" plywood? Special tolex? Special speakers? Nope.
> 
> What those companies do have, is a design and years of experience proving the quality of that design. Unfortunately for them, speaker cab designs aren't patented. Tons of smaller cab makers make verbatim copies of those respected cabs, often for cheaper and with a level of customization that the larger shops simply don't do.


 
My point exactly! Now fair enough, all those high end names obviously make very good products but that doesn't mean someones else cant for cheaper!


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## adrock (Nov 7, 2010)

maxofmetal is so on point with his reply. I wanna know of the people in here bashing, who's actually played one?


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 7, 2010)

adrock said:


> maxofmetal is so on point with his reply. I wanna know of the people in here bashing, who's actually played one?


 
Thats all i was trying to find out really.

I saw an excellent example today of what me and max were talking about. We are moving on Friday so the Mrs has been dragging me around all the shops the weekend buying shite for the new place. She brought a pictures in a cheap, bargin basement shop (Wilkinsons) and it was £8, I saw exactly the same picture in an upmarket shop (Next) today and it was £20! It was the same fucking picture!


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## KoenDercksen (Nov 7, 2010)

I did play one today and I did really hear quite a lot of difference between the Orange 4x12 and the Harley Benton 4x12.

Max is right in what he says, however you shouldn't just assume that it's just as good. 

I'd say, try it if you can, and decide for yourself. Otherwise take the leap and buy it, you can always return it if it doesn't fit your needs. ^^


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 7, 2010)

KoenDercksen said:


> I did play one today and I did really hear quite a lot of difference between the Orange 4x12 and the Harley Benton 4x12.
> 
> Max is right in what he says, however you shouldn't just assume that it's just as good.
> 
> I'd say, try it if you can, and decide for yourself. Otherwise take the leap and buy it, you can always return it if it doesn't fit your needs. ^^


 
Cool, What did it sound like? Ie did it have a nice tone? or was it cheap & nasty as the price suggests? Did the Orange have V30's in it?


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## James Blood (Nov 7, 2010)

I have one. Plus another one I built myself (oversized).
I bought the HB because it's cheap and because the other guitarist in my band also has a full stack. You simply need a full stack, if the other guitarist has one... ;-)

Hm, well it's not bad. Its way lighter than my DIY, it's casters look cheap and the wheels are rather hard. It even got metal handles.
But the sound is not bad.
I am no sure if it would withstand road abuse...


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## adrock (Nov 7, 2010)

markbolwell54 said:


> Cool, What did it sound like? Ie did it have a nice tone? or was it cheap & nasty as the price suggests? Did the Orange have V30's in it?



yeah, I wouldn't expect it to sound exactly like an orange. I don't think it's supposed to, judging by what I saw. I doubt it sounds terrible though. all plywood, V30s, closed back. should sound pretty good, unless it's a lemon.

sometimes it's hard for people to ignore the name on a product...


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 7, 2010)

James Blood said:


> I have one. Plus another one I built myself (oversized).
> I bought the HB because it's cheap and because the other guitarist in my band also has a full stack. You simply need a full stack, if the other guitarist has one... ;-)
> 
> Hm, well it's not bad. Its way lighter than my DIY, it's casters look cheap and the wheels are rather hard. It even got metal handles.
> ...


 
What is the sound like from it? I'm basically going to buy this cab or a blackstar.


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## Rook (Nov 7, 2010)

A guy I know bought one, it sounds terrible. It's just plain wrong. It wouldn't surprise me if they were made in the same factory as the Framus cabs, all the 212's I've seen have been disastrous. The Framus 412's seem to be a lot better, strangely, but it could just be the volume. I've seen anywhere near as many 412's too.

I've seen the HB's (and framus 212's tbh) warp, and a Framus 212 even had a speaker fall out...

MaxOfMetal also said something about the speakers being no different, Mesa and a couple of other select companies use UK Made Celestions, those found in Framus, Blackstar, Orange etc are all chinese. Same speaker design, and I've never done a direct comparison, but they are _slightly_ different. I'm just being padantic though, lol.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 7, 2010)

Fun111 said:


> MaxOfMetal also said something about the speakers being no different, Mesa and a couple of other select companies use UK Made Celestions, those found in Framus, Blackstar, Orange etc are all chinese. Same speaker design, and I've never done a direct comparison, but they are _slightly_ different. I'm just being padantic though, lol.



I have both a UK and Chinese made V30 and Greenback sitting in my office. They're both exactly the same. They sound the same, feel the same, look the same, they even weigh the same.


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## Rook (Nov 7, 2010)

Haha, you know that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Speakers are very easy to make very consistently from what I gather.


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## Leuchty (Nov 7, 2010)

I think Lifetime Warranty might have something to do with the price too.


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## James Blood (Nov 8, 2010)

markbolwell54 said:


> What is the sound like from it? I'm basically going to buy this cab or a blackstar.



Hm, well it's hard to describe the sound of a cabinet...

I am sorry, I can't describe the sound any better than 'good'.
In other words: I would buy another one if I needed a cabinet.

I would recommend to try one, with your axe and your amp and especially turn it up to the volume you are going to use it most, if you are unsure...

In my opinion the biggest factors in the sound of a guitar cabinet are the speaker and the size of the cabinet itself. Especially if you go for the miked sound.
The other thing with guitar cabinets is that the percieved sound strongly depends on where you stand in relation to the cabinet. Any cabinet can have a very piercing sound (on axis) and a very bass heavy sound (well off axis) at the same time...


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## petereanima (Nov 8, 2010)

Fun111 said:


> MaxOfMetal also said something about the speakers being no different, Mesa and a couple of other select companies use UK Made Celestions, those found in Framus, Blackstar, Orange etc are all chinese. Same speaker design, and I've never done a direct comparison, but they are _slightly_ different. I'm just being padantic though, lol.



The V30s are ALL made in China nowadays, for a few years already. There are a few speakers, still made in the UK, but thats more the "special" versions - there was a huge interview with Celestion some months ago in a mag, i cant remember which one unfortunately....

For the Harley Benton Cab: You get 4 brandnew V30s and a free cab with it. Thats acutally it. I have played it once live and everyone told me in advance "blabla, tis the same as the Framus blabla" - no, its not. I have owned the Framus Dragon Cab and know its sound very good, they sound NOTHING alike. The Framus is tighter, and less harsh.

In the end: you get what you pay for. You can get the HB 412 for what? 250,- or something? The Framus Dragon is 350,- on the used market and really a good cab, better than the HB. If you are very tight on budget, the HB will do it for some time, but you will find yourself in the nearer future, keeping the speakers and selling the cab itself. 

I havent played the Blackstar, but they seem like to be much much more solid.


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## Rook (Nov 8, 2010)

My year old Mesa cab's speakers all have the customary 'Made in Ipswich' sticker on them, and it isn't NOS because it has the newer black piping from a few years ago instead of the grey. 
Ask the dudes at Mesa man, they pride themselves on using British made Celestions. I had a long chat with our distributor about it recently.

I agree that HB cabs are nothing like Framus 412's, the Framus is German made and pretty damn good. I have to say I'm not a fan of Framus 212's but that's a separate issue, lol.


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## Andromalia (Nov 8, 2010)

They're the best you can get for the money, new. They're not stellar but very decent. A few friends of mine have a 2x12 and get good tones out of it. Sure it's no Engl pro but it's half the price.
Keep an eye for used though, I grabbed a MF280 used for the price of a HB 2x12.


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## Demeyes (Nov 8, 2010)

I've got one of the 2x12 Harley Benton cabs. It's actually a decent enough cab, mine sounds pretty good. I've played it side by side with mine and my brother's Marshall 2x12, 4x12 and Laney 4x12. It held it's own pretty well with those. It's not the best cab out there but it's cheap and has quality speakers, it'll serve you better than a cheap cab with budget speakers anyday.


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## col (Nov 9, 2010)

For a bit more money I'd get a Retro sized 2x12 from Matamp since you're in the UK. Custom options, speakers and tolex for £339. And it's just as good in quality (if better) as Mesa, Fryette, Engl etc.

I have one loaded with a G12K100 and an Emi Texas Heat (can't get these factory installed unfortunately) and it sounds as big as my Retro 4x12.


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## petereanima (Nov 10, 2010)

Fun111 said:


> My year old Mesa cab's speakers all have the customary 'Made in Ipswich' sticker on them, and it isn't NOS



And these are regular V30s??? 

I have seen newer V30s with a "*Designed* in Ipswitch" sticker - if you pull that off the print says "made in PRC".

Celestion still builds speakers in Ipswitch, thats correct, but these are only the Heritage and Alnico Series, as well as some custom designed speakers - like for example the C90 Mesa uses (Thats also why (imho) they can pride themselves with "We use UK Celestions"). H&K did a workshoptour, with Thomas Blug as speaking person, he explained that also there (very detailled) - i wasnt there, but a guy i know. FWIW - Larry Grohmann (Larry Amplification), who is for years in direct and good contact with the Celestion guys, confirmed that also on a german board.

Please note: i really want to be a dick here, or saying that yours arent UK made, it just makes me wonder based on the information i have. I'm a gear-whore and i love gear-talk - If anything of the above sounds dick-ish, its due to my poor english, sorry. 




As far as i'm concerned: i dont think the old UK Celestions are any better than the newer China-ones. You cant directly compare them, as an older broken-in speaker will always sound better than a new one straight out of the box. Even further: most of the "freaks" i know would even say they are more satisfied witht he China speakers, as years ago (UK made) there would be a wide variation betweend "good", "perfect" and "total crap" speakers, out of one product line. Chinese have today higher standard, there is (almost) no variation


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## Rook (Nov 10, 2010)

I also believe there isn't a great difference UK and PRC speakers, as MaxOfMetal said, I believe speaker construction is something thats very easy to do very efficiently.

I can however confirm, and have with Mesa, their vintage 30's _are_ 100% built in the UK.

It's just a nice touch, a company as proudly American as Mesa I can't imagine wouldn't want Made in PRC on any of their gear, hence why they don't have a cheap import line. I'm glad because they're also supporting my economy!

And I don't think you meant to, petereanima, but after where it says 'please note:', you continue to say "I really want to be a dick here", lol! I'm the same though, I'm not being a dick, I love this kind of conversation.


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 10, 2010)

Just to let you all know, I went for the blackstar series one oversize cab! Should be here tomorrow oooooo!

The reason i went for that one is that I have actually tested my head on it and loved it! I would hate to go the cheap option then regret it!


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## Rook (Nov 10, 2010)

Very good decision, you'll love it, they're great. Straight or slant?


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## markbolwell54 (Nov 10, 2010)

Fun111 said:


> Very good decision, you'll love it, they're great. Straight or slant?


 
I went straight! I did have a read around and it seemed like the general opinion was the straight was better?

My mate had a straight one too and that was recommended to him by his producer.


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## Rook (Nov 10, 2010)

The straight would be my preference too. A bit darker, warmer and more rich. I'm not fussed bythe slant at all tbh!


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## petereanima (Nov 11, 2010)

Fun111 said:


> 'please note:', you continue to say "I really want to be a dick here",



 ooooooh shit!! there is seriously a "NOT" missing.


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