# What's the best method for fretboard visualisation?



## bey0ndreaz0n (Feb 5, 2012)

So I've been frustrated with my lack of fretboard knowledge.

I've only recently started practicing scales and modes (I admit very embarrassed about this!),and have made backing tracks so that I can hear the difference between each mode in context (otherwise it's pointless). Through watching Frank Gambale's 'Modes - No More Mystery' I'm now starting to wonder whether I'm just fast tracking myself into trouble later.

I've always thought of modes as the parent scale that it's derived from, but with a different root, so if I'm playing in F Lydian, I'm really thinking C major. Or A dorian, I'm really thinking G major. Reason for this is if I've learnt the fingerings for a major scale across the fretboard, it appears easier to remember that and transpose accordingly. But this feels like a short cut now.

In Frank Gambale's video he talks about the modes and their interval structure (b3 b7 etc..), in parallell, so first of is C Ionian, C Dorian, C Phrygian etc..

So my question is, is thinking of modes relative to it's parent scale a valid method, or should I really be thinking in terms of intervals? (Is it better to get really comfortable with C Ionian first interval wise, and then get used to flattening all the 3rds and 7ths across the neck to play in C Dorian?)

My other plan, is to take the caged approach with chords and arpeggios, so going through major, minor, major 7, minor 7, Dom 7 and diminshed across the whole fretboard.

I'd be really interested to hear how you guys have gone about this and whether I'm on track or not!


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## Dayn (Feb 5, 2012)

May this post be of help to you: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...es/171607-learning-how-learn.html#post2668292

I find thinking 'C major', 'D dorian' to be useless beyond knowing they have the same notes. The only way they'll sound different depends entirely on the context, and if you're just playing a scale, they'll sound too similar: different 'key', but entirely identical notes. Not much to differentiate them unless you put a good backing behind them. Honestly, all you're doing this way is playing C major up and down.

Think of it as 'C major' and 'C dorian' instead: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, compared to 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7. Same 'key', completely different notes. You'll then be in C and be able to hear those differences better without a backing. Instead of playing C D E F G A B and D E F G A B C, you'll be playing different notes: C D E F G A B and C D Eb F G A Bb.


I reckon you should learn the intervals. I honestly don't even know what the 'CAGED' system is. But if you look at the post I linked, that might help. Learn what a perfect fifth looks like on your fretboard across many strings, and do the same for the other intervals. Then if you want to play, I dunno, C# harmonic minor, you know to find the C#s on the neck, then you know the intervals to play: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7. And you'll know the pattern those intervals take on the neck, and you can play any scale anywhere on the neck instantly, so long as you know the scale formula.

I honestly never learned fingering patterns... the above is how I learned. I just learned what shapes the intervals form all over the neck (it's quite intuitive and math-based!) then it's just a matter of picking them out as needed. A bit more effort than learning a fingering pattern, but you actually learn what's behind it all and you don't need fingering patterns; you know them all already for every scale in existence if you have the formula.


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## SirMyghin (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't like the caged system.

I think in intervals, as Dayn mentioned, and chords/triads across the strings. I go through little interval practices of scales (rotating modes, not to be confused with 'this fingerboard paterrn = and A scale over all 6 strings though). Overall just knowing what the notes you are playing are eliminates the need for patterns on the fretboard. If I play a major 3rd from C, I know it is an E, and so forth.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 5, 2012)

Learn to read, write, play and hear the different intervals: major and minor second, major and minor third, perfect and augmented fourth, perfect, diminished and augmented fifth, major and minor sixth, major and minor seventh, perfect octave. I kid you not, this is the foundation for all pitch-based music. If you really want to know this stuff, pick up a copy of this book: www.amazon.co.uk/Tonal-Harmony-Stefan-Kostka/dp/0073401358/

I think it's easier to learn the music and apply it to the fretboard rather than trying to wrench out truths from the rosewood monolith.

Postscript: When talking about modes, it's easy to get turned around: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 means that there is a major third from 1-3 and a minor seventh from 1-b7, but recognize that there is also a major third from 4-6 and a minor seventh from 2-6. There are patterns within patterns, and thinking about things the "modal" way locks you into one way of thinking if you don't take it to the next step. There is nothing wrong with using modal shapes on the fretboard, but don't let that be the way you conceive of music.


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## bey0ndreaz0n (Feb 6, 2012)

Thankyou so much for all your replies. I'm glad I asked as it confirms all I've done so far is scrape the surface, and now I have an idea of how deep you need to go, there is no shortcut!

Just to give you a little background, I've been playing for years, for the most part by ear, and unfortunately for the majority think of the fretboard as fret numbers and patterns. My fretboard knowledge is patchy, there are dead spots where I have to think for a second and work out what note that is. Aside from that I understand some music theory, and can recognise intervals, and have my grade 5 music theory (woo hoo!), but for some reason I'm having a hard time putting this theory knowledge together on the fretboard, and breaking out of bad habits. At the moment I can't take a major scale, and then flatten all the 3rds and 7ths on the fly yet, but this is what practicing is for right!



Dayn said:


> May this post be of help to you: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...es/171607-learning-how-learn.html#post2668292
> .


 
Thanks Dayn, your post is epic!



SchecterWhore said:


> pick up a copy of this book: www.amazon.co.uk/Tonal-Harmony-Stefan-Kostka/dp/0073401358/
> .


 
Just cheking this book out now, thank you so much for the link.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 6, 2012)

Work things out an octave at a time. Here's an F# minor scale:


```
e-
b-
G-
D-2-4
A-2-4-5
E-2-4-5
```
If we want to raise the seventh (making it harmonic minor), then work it out within that one octave first:


```
e-
b-
G-
D-[COLOR=yellow]3[/COLOR]-4
A-2-4-5
E-2-4-5
```
Then do the same for the next octave:


```
e-
b-[COLOR=Yellow]6[/COLOR]-7
G-4-6-7
D-4-6-7
A-
E-
```
And the same for the octave after that.


```
e-7-9-10-[COLOR=Yellow]13[/COLOR]-14
b-7-9-10
G-
D-
A-
E-
```
It's a repeating pattern, so as soon as you know how to find your way in the octave it should get easier.


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## wespaul (Feb 6, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> If you really want to know this stuff, pick up a copy of this book: www.amazon.co.uk/Tonal-Harmony-Stefan-Kostka/dp/0073401358/



This is the book I'm using in my theory class right now. I would NOT recommend buying this book unless you're going to have somebody guide you along with it. It's very confusing if you plan on doing it solo.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Feb 7, 2012)

It's a lot less dense than most other harmony books. I agree that it works best with an instructor, but it is definitely possible to learn from it solo. There are self-tests at the end of each section and answer keys in the back, and I like the way that things are laid out and explained. Then again, I'm coming from a place a few years after I learned all this stuff. What makes it confusing, if I may ask?


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## bey0ndreaz0n (Feb 7, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Work things out an octave at a time.
> 
> It's a repeating pattern, so as soon as you know how to find your way in the octave it should get easier.


 
Funnily enough this is EXACTLY what I was doing today before I read your post, it's very re-assuring that you posted this thank you!

Today I've been getting more familiar with octaves and finding the roots across the fretboard, and then from each root position on each string, playing a scale and experimenting with different fingerings, and slowly connecting them.

It's really helping to get out of that position autopilot mentality, and playing a scale on one string , and each string really helps to physically see the whole and half step intervals, which makes flattening the 3rds, 6ths or 7ths or whatever much easier to do.

I'm already feeling a better and more familiar so I can't thank you guys enough for pointing me in the right direction!

Plus I think I'm going to pick up that book, I've read through some of the example pages and it's reminded me of the stuff I've forgotten. It's especially good in the way it tests you after each chapter too.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 7, 2012)

SirMyghin said:


> I don't like the caged system.
> 
> I think in intervals, as Dayn mentioned, and chords/triads across the strings. I go through little interval practices of scales (rotating modes, not to be confused with 'this fingerboard paterrn = and A scale over all 6 strings though). Overall just knowing what the notes you are playing are eliminates the need for patterns on the fretboard. If I play a major 3rd from C, I know it is an E, and so forth.


 
Started with the caged system (a LOT of ppl don't seem to like this one even though to me it looks easier to visualize at first) then I moved to looking at it in intervals and had a eureka moment.


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## Maniacal (Feb 7, 2012)

Learn all the mode shapes and diatonic arpeggios and chords. Drill them up and down the neck for an hour or so. Play with different sequences, techniques and subdivisions. Then improvise in each position, gradually putting all positions together. The end.


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## wespaul (Feb 7, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> It's a lot less dense than most other harmony books. I agree that it works best with an instructor, but it is definitely possible to learn from it solo. There are self-tests at the end of each section and answer keys in the back, and I like the way that things are laid out and explained. Then again, I'm coming from a place a few years after I learned all this stuff. What makes it confusing, if I may ask?



It's possible to learn from it solo, but not probable, imo. Especially if you're trying to aim it toward a guy who has hit a roadblock of sorts and is specifically seeking out help. The book is set up rather dry, and very matter-of-fact with a lot of language that my theory teacher doesn't even use. There's been more than one time in class she had to stop and think of the way the book is explaining it and, and then rephrase it for us because "this is the way white-haired guys talked a couple hundred years ago" - LOL, her words, not mine.

The only reason I'm taking a theory class is because I want to advance my knowledge of music, and I believe if I sat down with this book by myself, I would either not get it or run out of interest, simply by the way it's set up. I remember getting excited my first day of buying the book, so before class even started I sat down with the book at home and I was going "uuuuhhhh...."

I like the book, and you're right, the test questions help a lot. There's a complimentary workbook that goes with this book that helps out even more for drilling exercises (comes with 2 cds, too). I think music theory is a subject where it helps out immensely if you having somebody teaching/guiding you, especially if you've gotten into a rut on your own.

To get back on topic, though, I think of the major modes (Ionian, Lydian, Mixolydian) as major scales with a change. So if I'm soloing over a C7 chord, I'll use the C Mixolydian because of the flatted 7th. Outlining chords is a great way to drill your modes. With the minors, I think relative majors and make my change accordingly (except Locrian, which I make 2 changes to).


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## bey0ndreaz0n (Feb 7, 2012)

Maniacal said:


> Learn all the mode shapes and diatonic arpeggios and chords. Drill them up and down the neck for an hour or so. Play with different sequences, techniques and subdivisions. Then improvise in each position, gradually putting all positions together. The end.


 
Oh my god! I've just checked out your Shred Training you tube vids, you are an AMAZING guitar player!

Everyone here should go seek!


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## Maniacal (Feb 8, 2012)

Thanks, now go buy my books!


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