# Tipping Pizza Delivery Drivers...



## ZeroTolerance94 (Dec 16, 2014)

How much money should an individual tip a pizza delivery driver...? 

And to any possible pizza delivery drivers on this forum; how much money do you consider a decent tip on a delivery? What amount is considered heavily lackluster? 

I just ordered a pizza and wondered what the general consensus is on it.


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## Riverrunsred (Dec 16, 2014)

$3-5 for a bill of under $20.


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## kevdes93 (Dec 16, 2014)

I delivered pizza for a year, wasnt that bad. Most tips averaged from 3-5 bucks


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## MoshJosh (Dec 16, 2014)

I usually do 15-20% unless it's really cheap then I'll throw 3-5 as above^^^


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## MFB (Dec 16, 2014)

My order is always around $14 to $18 at most and I throw in $3 for a tip. Either way its 15-20%.


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## vilk (Dec 16, 2014)

Same as above, but other factors to consider:

Your distance from the place
Current weather
Delivery charge (yes, I know people don't always get them--depends on the place. But it often figures into how much of that 20$ bill is left over.)


You better believe I'll do you better than $3 if you're driving in the rain from across town. But if I'm just ordering a small pizza from down the street on a sunny afternoon because I'm sick in bed or something then try not to shit your panties if I only tip you a few bucks.


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## Curt (Dec 16, 2014)

unless I am ordering more than one pizza, I usually just tip them $5.


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## troyguitar (Dec 16, 2014)

zero

I pick it up because I'm way too ....ing cheap to spend that much extra money on a damn pizza.

$5 extra is enough to buy another whole pizza, hot n' ready style.


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## troyguitar (Dec 16, 2014)

Put another way:

If you order a guitar from Guitar Center, how much do you tip the UPS driver?


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## asher (Dec 16, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Put another way:
> 
> If you order a guitar from Guitar Center, how much do you tip the UPS driver?



UPS doesn't assume tipping in the wages they pay their drivers.


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## troyguitar (Dec 16, 2014)

asher said:


> UPS doesn't assume tipping in the wages they pay their drivers.



Who cares?

I'm not the one delivering the pizza, I'm the one eating it. 

Delivering a pizza is doing a job as expected. Tips are rewards for going beyond expectations.


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## piggins411 (Dec 16, 2014)

*Awaits Reservoir Dogs-esque conversation*


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## Joose (Dec 16, 2014)

Minimum 25%; more if lots of change. I'm a car guy, and I know the beating the drivers' cars take; one serious problem and their whole month's worth of tips is spent.


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## The Griffinator (Dec 16, 2014)

Joose said:


> Minimum 25%; more if lots of change. I'm a car guy, and I know the beating the drivers' cars take; one serious problem and their whole month's worth of tips is spent.



This. Doesn't matter if ordering in or eating out, I tip a minimum of 25%. I don't have a problem shelling out an extra 2$-4$ so my waitress/pizza guy/poor college student can afford a coffee in the morning.


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## Hollowway (Dec 16, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Put another way:
> 
> If you order a guitar from Guitar Center, how much do you tip the UPS driver?



Nothing. Because he delivered it to the wrong address! Ba dum TISH!


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## troyguitar (Dec 16, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> Nothing. Because he delivered it to the wrong address! Ba dum TISH!


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## Joose (Dec 16, 2014)

The Griffinator said:


> This. Doesn't matter if ordering in or eating out, I tip a minimum of 25%. I don't have a problem shelling out an extra 2$-4$ so my waitress/pizza guy/poor college student can afford a coffee in the morning.



Exactly. If I can afford to be going or ordering out, I can afford to tip well. These people get paid less than minimum wage because of tips. 

When I was waiting for this good employer to finally hire me, I spent a month delivering for Jimmy John's (for those from The Car Thread, yes in the Daytona haha). It was awful. There I was getting paid less than minimum wage, gunning the car everywhere because JJ's has a time limit and if you exceed it, you get a strike; and often times people would tip a dollar or less because "it's just a sandwich"... yes, a sandwich you didn't make or want to come get yourself.

If delivery drivers, like waiters/waitresses got paid more hourly, a lack of tipping might be admissable; but they don't, so it's not. Back in my teenage years, if I didn't have enough to give a good tip, I ordered carryout.


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## 3074326 (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Who cares?
> 
> I'm not the one delivering the pizza, I'm the one eating it.
> 
> Delivering a pizza is doing a job as expected. Tips are rewards for going beyond expectations.



What kind of expectations do you have for pizza delivery, exactly? 

I tip because the drivers are in charge of my food. I don't like making people angry in general, specifically the ones in charge of my food. I tip 20% and round up if the number isn't even. If they didn't rely on tips, things might be different. But I'm not an asshole, so I tip them because it's how they make a living. I'm paying to be lazy and I'm totally fine with that.


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## piggins411 (Dec 17, 2014)

I miss ZEBOV...


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## FILTHnFEAR (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Who cares?
> 
> I'm not the one delivering the pizza, I'm the one eating it.
> 
> Delivering a pizza is doing a job as expected. Tips are rewards for going beyond expectations.








Never mind what you'd normally do. Throw in a buck, you cheap bastard!


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## iRaiseTheDead (Dec 17, 2014)

brutalwizard said:


> Somewhere ZEBOV Is writhing in anger...........
> (a old member that detailed some of the terrible things he did to pizza's when not tipped on the second delivery to an address)
> 
> 
> 3-5$ Is where I sit on the issue. For reals though, Throwing in a few extra bucks for the convenience wont kill your wallet and you will feel better probably. If it does break the bank to tip, you should really look into cheaper food options.



I miss that guy but what did he do?


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## Hollowway (Dec 17, 2014)

piggins411 said:


> I miss ZEBOV...



Donde esta? Is he banned or something?


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## Alex Kenivel (Dec 17, 2014)

How's this for a tip? _Get a better job! _


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## troyguitar (Dec 17, 2014)

Alex Kenivel said:


> How's this for a tip? _Get a better job! _



or blame the employers for your low wages, not the consumers.

I never order delivery because I don't want to tip for service whether or not it's extraordinary, therefore there are fewer delivery jobs in existence because of my actions. Would you rather have no tip or no job?

If tipping was built into the cost (delivery charge), then I would order delivery and if I got an extraordinary delivery I would actually offer a tip - but simply doing your job competently is not worthy of getting tips.

Tipping for average service is like awarding a participation trophy to all entrants in a race. You didn't win the damn race, you just showed up. You don't deserve a trophy.


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## Joose (Dec 17, 2014)

Alex Kenivel said:


> How's this for a tip? _Get a better job! _



Yes, because life is always just that simple.


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## stevo1 (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Who cares?
> 
> I'm not the one delivering the pizza, I'm the one eating it.
> 
> Delivering a pizza is doing a job as expected. Tips are rewards for going beyond expectations.



Well, I'm sure the driver cares, seeing how their pay is halved while on the road (worse at some places). 
Making the pizza is the establishment doing a job as expected, where as getting people to expend their own resources to deliver it to you, is going beyond.


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## Joose (Dec 17, 2014)

For those missing ZEBOV, I sent him a screenshot from this thread.

Response:
"Actually, I've taken most of the world's natural psychedelics since then, and they've helped me let go of a lot of anger. Also, it wasn't my second delivery. It was somewhere between the 5th and 10th deliveries.
Yes I'm banned. My permaban began with a temporary ban. I was temporarily banned just because I neg repped Max. This was one out of many times I was banned for NOT breaking the rules. 

Anyway, If you can't afford to tip, go to Taco Bell where you can stuff yourself silly for $3."


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## Pat_tct (Dec 17, 2014)

at some pizza places the driver has to take his own car to deliver the food.
and no they don't get the money back for the gas they used during the day.
but that is an exception.

my go-to pizza place is not too far away. my usual order is about 11-13 bucks and I round it up to 15 or 20.

if i wouldn't live that near my tip would be higher.

most of the drivers are students working a couple hours a day there and they only get 400&#8364; a month for that.
this is the limit to not pay taxes on incomes. so it's an easy way to get some money while studying.

so tipping them doesn't ruin me, and makes their life easier. and most of them are actually really happy to see a tip above 1&#8364;. they also are super fast and super friendly no matter how shitty the weather is or anything.


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## monkeybike (Dec 17, 2014)

I deliver goddamn pianos and maybe get tipped once in 20 deliveries. Most of the time its the people that look like they could barely afford it that tip. No lie, I delivered a grand piano to a $1.5 million house (owner made sure to tell me) and they tipped me a half empty tin of pistachios. So I generally tip service workers well.


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## Vostre Roy (Dec 17, 2014)

monkeybike said:


> I deliver goddamn pianos and maybe get tipped once in 20 deliveries. Most of the time its the people that look like they could barely afford it that tip. No lie, I delivered a grand piano to a $1.5 million house (owner made sure to tell me) and they tipped me a half empty tin of pistachios. So I generally tip service works well.



Yeah well, I've worked in a Pizza place for over 2 years (mostly as a cook, but I've done my share of deliveries). Delivery guys had to use their own car, would barely receive anything for gaz so the tip would basically help to pay to fix their car, especially since (as stated above) their salary is considered "salary with tip". Beside the pay cut, they also have to pay a tax on the EXPECTED tip they'll receive. No tip? Still pay the tax (don't remember the exact amount as I never was considered a delivery guy). Complain about it? You're out and there's come another guy in need of a job. 

I've also worked at an Home Hardware, where I've worked as a delivery guy for a year or so. At that job, I didn't had any tax on tip, company would provide the trucks and I didn't had to pay for the gaz. I was at minimal wage, hauling stuff to build houses (wich sometime were very heavy or numerous). I still have back issue from that job because I would work my ass out everytime. Sure a tip would had been nice, but since I had barely nothing to pay to work it was more payful than a pizza delivery job.

I guess you have to have worked in the public area to really understand it. Oh and yeah, treat the guy who makes what you eat nicely, they won't necesseraly ruins your food the next time you'll order, but you might not get a pizza as good looking as the guy who usually tip well


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 17, 2014)

I spend ~20, and tip 5, unless the place is farther away. When I was younger, I tipped insanely high. ($20 tips were not uncommon.) Most places I order from are really close by. If I order delivery, it's because I'm busy doing house work. I only refused to tip once, and that was on a slow 2am night with nice weather and the guy took 3 hours to deliver the wrong, (not his fault) cold food. 

There have been a couple times where my wife thought I tipped online but I hadn't and thus we didn't tip. In those cases, we called the pizza place and credited a tip after the fact. It's a broken system though. Tipping SHOULD be a reward for giving good service. Instead it's sort of forced, which defeats the whole purpose of it. You shouldn't feel obligated to pay someone extra for sub par service. Especially if all they give is mediocrity and then spit in it if you can't accept mediocrity at 20% higher prices.


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## ghostred7 (Dec 17, 2014)

20% & round up to nearest whole dollar.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 17, 2014)

15-20% rounded up seems normal, usually what I do unless I'm picking it up myself. I do agree that the whole idea of tipping being the norm is dumb as hell and they should he paid more so we aren't obligated to tip. If I'm out at a restaurant/bar then I tip 10%, unless they do a great job then they get 15-20%. I also have no problem not tipping if I got shitty service, or not tipping a bartender for just opening a beer bottle.

But back to pizza: some places in my city add a delivery charge, so not sure if that covers gas and stuff but I think that's a good idea. I still tip the driver but I can understand a laziness charge.

As for Zebov I just remember him flying off the handle several times and going off on rants, bitching about rep, attacking other members (that food thread he started where he talked about f**king with peoples' orders when he delivered then comes to mind). So yeah, he broke rules I'm pretty sure.


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## musicaldeath (Dec 17, 2014)

If I actually get it delivered (which is rare as the pizza place we go to is literally two blocks away and the delivery charge to get it from there to us is ~$7) I will usually tip 20%. If it shows up before the estimated time, 25%. It's bullshit that the drivers don't get their gas and mileage at least subsidized.

One thing I won't do though is tip at places like Subway. Every one I go into now asks for a tip (when paying by machine) and I hit no. Tipping for fast food seems ridiculous. A&W I almost laughed out loud at it as 9/10 times that burger you just ordered sat there ready made for the last 5 minutes.


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## cwhitey2 (Dec 17, 2014)

I hang at my friends house 3-5 days a week.

We order pizza pretty much every time I'm there which usually equals out to $20-40.

We order from 3 places religiously...lets just say you bet your ass we tip them. Its the same people delivering every time....and they are handling are food.

Usually we tip $5-10...but it really depends on how much money we spent.


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## loqtrall (Dec 17, 2014)

I always tip, no matter what. My best friend was a delivery driver and it was sad hearing the shit he went through. He was assigned mosty deliveries to the local country club and NEVER got tipped for any delivery there. One guy had him sit in the kitchen for almost 10 minutes while he found his wallet and STILL didn't tip him. He eventually had to quit because after paying only a few measly bills, he barely had enough gas to make it to work. I gave him money quite a few times so he could get to work. After personally knowing what they go through, not tipping a driver is shitty. They didn't come from some pizza place you can't dine-in at. They spend their own money and use their own car to bring your lazy ass some food while it's still hot because you can't put forth the effort to pick it up yourself. They're literally DELIVERING food to your house using their own resources, like a ....ing servant, and get paid less than minimum wage because of tips that aren't even guaranteed!

As for Zebov, I don't think what he said is true, because I neg rep'd Max and nothing happened to me (you can still see the neg on his profile). Either he broke some rules or he abused the rep system on Max.


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## asher (Dec 17, 2014)

ZEBOV had finally actually crossed a couple thresholds by the time he got perma'd IIRC. I recall him flipping on a couple different people before.


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2014)

Joose said:


> Yes, because life is always just that simple.



It's not always more complicated than that though. I get that I don't live in the US, so the situation is different, but lots of people I hear complaining about their jobs (or lack of) are just not trying (not all, but lots). If you don't like your job, then it's your own responsibility to seek something better. Sometimes it is that simple- it's not "easy" per-se, but simple.

Back on topic: The area I live in doesn't reduce the minimum for those who get tips by very much (min is $10.35 CAD, and with tips, it's reduced by a little more than a dollar), and I think places like fast food etc. are forced to pay minimum even if they do get tips. It's not like some stories I've heard of from the US where people making tips might only get something like $2/hr- I know that most here are compensated for the most part by their actual wages, and for that reason I'll tip entirely based on whether or not I feel like I got decent service. If it's not delivery, a lot of times I won't tip at all unless I think they did a great job worth acknowledging. Fast food I don't tip at all. Same thing with delivery that has a built-in delivery charge.


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## asher (Dec 17, 2014)

For the people that I've known working delivery, it really was all they could snag. It's still a pretty shit situation for lower skilled or down on their luck would-be workers.


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## loqtrall (Dec 17, 2014)

TedEH said:


> The area I live in doesn't reduce the minimum for those who get tips by very much (min is $10.35 CAD, and with tips, it's reduced by a little more than a dollar), and I think places like fast food etc. are forced to pay minimum even if they do get tips. It's not like some stories I've heard of from the US where people making tips might only get something like $2/hr- I know that most here are compensated for the most part by their actual wages, and for that reason I'll tip entirely based on whether or not I feel like I got decent service.


 
My friend got paid $4.50/hour+tips, no compensation. With his hours and frequency of tips, he averaged well under liveable monthly wages, especially since he used his car to drive back and forth making deliveries and gas prices were at an all-time high in the US. He basically had the job of a high schooler who has no bills to worry about. 

But switching jobs isn't as easy as you'd think. Where I lived, there were no jobs. My sister and I tried literally every business in our small city, nobody was hiring, and those who were just hired to meet quota then had massive lay-offs. Eventually I had to basically beg my friend to get me a job at his pawn shop. I swept floors and cleaned shelves for $35 a day. Couldn't pay bills with that so my whole family up and moved North. Sometimes it's not as easy as "taking responsibility to find something better". Sometimes the shitty delivery job is all you get.


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## vilk (Dec 17, 2014)

This is not a debate. 
If you do not tip people who rely on it as part of their living, you are:
1)An _*asshole*_
2)Cheap
3)Looked down upon by your peers for the above two reasons


Honestly, I feel it's an excellent way to make a character call. When I see someone who is a bad tipper, I judge them on several parameters-- greed, propriety, tact, social awareness... 

Go ahead. Excuse yourself whatever stupid way you want. But I and everyone else know that you're pretty much knowingly doing something bad to a stranger just because you can get away with it without legal repercussion.

When I'm with someone who tips like a jerk, I call them out. And I fix their tip. If I'm with someone who tries to not tip at all, I tell them whats up, pay the tip for them, and then tell them I'm not going to go out with them if they don't start tipping. 

If you can't "afford" to tip your bartender, go to the liquor store. If you can't tip your server, go to mcdonalds. If you can't tip your delivery driver, pick it up yourself.

Stop trying to pretend to yourself that not tipping is OK.


Edit: Just to be clear I'm talking about in the United States.


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> Sometimes it's not as easy as "taking responsibility to find something better".





TedEH said:


> it's not "easy" per-se, but simple



In your example, there were not enough jobs where you were, so you moved. That's simple. Was it easy? I'm sure it wasn't. But deciding that no jobs here equals moving wasn't complicated.


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2014)

vilk said:


> This is not a debate.[...]Stop trying to pretend to yourself that not tipping is OK.



I don't think anyone was making that argument- but remember that circumstances are not same same in every place. I was making the point that where I live, people aren't depending on tips to get by- they're already compensated by their hourly rate (Edit: and better jobs are available here for those willing to work for it or look harder). That doesn't mean that the tips don't help or aren't deserved- I just don't feel it's an obligation or an indication of a person's character if they don't tip here, because it has much less impact.


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## asher (Dec 17, 2014)

TedEH said:


> I don't think anyone was making that argument- but remember that circumstances are not same same in every place. I was making the point that where I live, people aren't depending on tips to get by- they're already compensated by their hourly rate (Edit: and better jobs are available here for those willing to work for it or look harder). That doesn't mean that the tips don't help or aren't deserved- I just don't feel it's an obligation or an indication of a person's character if they don't tip here, because it has much less impact.



I think that mainly applies to us Amurikans. Obviously, where culture is different, norms don't apply.


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## loqtrall (Dec 17, 2014)

TedEH said:


> In your example, there were not enough jobs where you were, so you moved. That's simple. Was it easy? I'm sure it wasn't. But deciding that no jobs here equals moving wasn't complicated.


 
But moving isn't an option for everyone. I lived with my grandfather who got military disabiity. It wasn't enough to pay the bills, but with one check the whole move was paid for, my sister made the down payment for us. My friend would have had to save money for three ....ing years to have enough to move and make a down-payment, assuming his car didn't break down from constant driving, thus forcing him to buy a new car. When he quit deivery, he had to beg his dad's friend to pay him in turn for being on-call and actively working on, maintaining, and participating in the guy's church, and he still gets shit pay.


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2014)

@loqtrall - I get it. Sometimes things are difficult or complicated. My point was only that it's not always the case. You either missed my point entirely or just want to argue for arguments sake. I'm not putting down cases where people are in complicated or difficult situations, just acknowledging that sometimes peoples difficulties are self-inflicted. If it doesn't apply to you, then that's fine.


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## WestOfSeven (Dec 17, 2014)

...


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 17, 2014)

I think Ted is pretty spot on but that's because we're both Canadian and it's different here. I'm pretty sure Ontario also only pays them maybe $1-2 less an hour if they're "expected" to get tips (service industry mainly). But since this whole tipping culture is ingrained in all of us (blaming you Yanks for that ) they often end up making a lot more money. I remember people in high school/early university that were making more as waiters than other people making minimum wage or slightly above minimum wage in a different industry, like labour or something. 

Also, leave it to SSO to start up a cultural debate about tipping when the op just asked how much he should troop his pizza delivery guy who by now is long gone.


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## JoeyW (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> or blame the employers for your low wages, not the consumers.
> 
> I never order delivery because I don't want to tip for service whether or not it's extraordinary, therefore there are fewer delivery jobs in existence because of my actions. Would you rather have no tip or no job?
> 
> ...



I know I'm a minority with Troy here, I DO tip but I think the idea of it is really silly. Tipping is what allows restaurants and pizza places to pay their employees next to nothing. Not sure the validity but I heard somewhere its considered rude to tip in Japan because it suggests the employer isn't paying their employees well enough to live.


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## vilk (Dec 17, 2014)

You're right Joe, that point does have no validity. People don't make tips in Japan because service jobs pay regular wages, unlike here.


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## asher (Dec 17, 2014)

It's not like it's mutually exclusive, either. You can be against tipping culture because it screws those workers, but still tip decently until it changes so you aren't screwing those workers too.


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## jemfloral (Dec 17, 2014)

BlackMastodon said:


> 15-20% rounded up seems normal, usually what I do unless I'm picking it up myself. I do agree that the whole idea of tipping being the norm is dumb as hell and they should he paid more so we aren't obligated to tip. If I'm out at a restaurant/bar then I tip 10%, unless they do a great job then they get 15-20%. I also have no problem not tipping if I got shitty service, or not tipping a bartender for just opening a beer bottle.
> QUOTE]
> 
> I tip 20%+ when the service is as expected, more if it is better and less if it is worse, but 100% agree with the above statement. I won't order delivery pizza because I don't see why I couldn't get in the car (or walk/ride there) and pick up myself for far cheaper (or free + exercise if walking/biking). As a general rule of thumb though, I tip/respect any food prep industries because I appreciate my food being prepared correctly. I also tip at bars, typically $1/drink, but only because I feel obligated to do as it is the norm. The person is doing their standard job duties and the employer HAS to compensate them at a rate of AT LEAST minimum wage, it is quite literally the law in the US (elsewhere... eh, not sure about elsewhere ). If the employee doesn't know/speak up about this then shame on them. Not sure when/why Americans decided that we should be paying the bartender extra for popping the cap on a bottle... guessing it was before any sort of minimum wage laws took effect though. If I asked the bartender to prepare some special set of drinks that took more work, or there was a change in the order, I tip appropriately.
> ...


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## Joose (Dec 17, 2014)

For those who don't know, the "Delivery Charge" doesn't really go to the drivers. Location dependent. Domino's actually even puts it on the boxes/receipts that the delivery charge isn't for the drivers. Which, of course, seems odd. I took it upon myself to ask 2 of my friends who deliver for Pizza Hut about this last night. They work at different locations in the same city.

Driver 1: "I have no idea where it goes, each franchise location is different; my store just keeps it. Not really sure what the owner needs that $2 for when me delivering has no effect on him."

Driver 2: "Our owner gives us 10% of the delivery charge for 'gas and maintenance'... but it takes 20 deliveries to even get that initial delivery charge; it's more like a slap in the face when, at the end of a 30 delivery shift my boss says, 'and here's your $3 for gas and maintenance", after I spent $15-$25 worth of gas and put somewhere between 100-200 miles on my car that night'... sometimes, my tips are only enough to allow me to work the next day. I used to stiff delivery drivers because 'it's their job', never again. The worst is when you get stuck in traffic, or there are closed roads or something and you don't get tipped because it took 10-20 minutes longer than the customer expected. As if it's my fault."


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## UnderTheSign (Dec 17, 2014)

I can't stand the "get a better job" or "complain to your employer about your wage, don't blame is for not tipping" mentality. Even if you do get a better job, someone else WILL still be doing the shitty job. It's not like the job magically disappears. 

As for the wages - one half of the people will tell you to complain to your employer. The other half will tell you "your employer is right, why would you raise the minimum wages? They _deserve_ to earn that little because it's a simple job!". Screw that.


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## possumkiller (Dec 17, 2014)

I always wondered about tipping the car hops at Sonic. I never even heard of it until my ex started working there. Are you seriously supposed to tip someone who walks 25ft to bring your fast food to your car? 

I personally think delivery drivers and other employees who get less than minimum wage because they are expected to get tips should do something about it. I don't know how companies get away with it to begin with. There is no guarantee that you will get tips at all so you can have a really good day or a really bad day. These companies like to use people who can't get better jobs and are grateful to have anything at all. 

They pay you less than minimum wage. They don't pay you for the gas you spend in service of their company. They don't pay you for wear and tear on your vehicle or things like oil/brake changes. Being a delivery driver has to be one of the worst jobs in the US as far as I am concerned. 

In other delivery services such as the trucking industry, truckers who have to use their own trucks and are responsible for paying the upkeep of said trucks, are paid well above what a driver using company equipment is paid.


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## Joose (Dec 17, 2014)

I've never tipped the skaters at Sonic. I worked at Sonic when I was 16; everyone got paid the same. If the skaters got paid less, then sure. I don't know if it's still the same 10 years later. Back then, we had a good staff. If the skaters got tipped, they'd split it with whoever made that particular order. 

I say I've never tipped, doesn't mean I haven't given the change from my $20 bill on an $18.95 order or something. Often times I just don't care enough about such a small amount to put it back in my pocket when it might buy that person a soda on their break.


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## Kobalt (Dec 17, 2014)

I usually give 4 or 5 bucks, whether I order from the small 2-for-1 place we've ordered since 2001 or Domino's. Order's always around 30 bucks, give or take.


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## tedtan (Dec 17, 2014)

jemfloral said:


> The person is doing their standard job duties and the employer HAS to compensate them at a rate of AT LEAST minimum wage, it is quite literally the law in the US (elsewhere... eh, not sure about elsewhere ). If the employee doesn't know/speak up about this then shame on them.



Jobs that involve tips or commissions are not required to pay minimum wage, so waiters, pizza delivery drivers, etc. are not in the minimum wage camp and speaking up won't do any good.


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## asher (Dec 17, 2014)

tedtan said:


> Jobs that involve tips or commissions are not required to pay minimum wage, so waiters, pizza delivery drivers, etc. are not in the minimum wage camp and speaking up won't do any good.



Well, not to their employers at any rate.


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## wannabguitarist (Dec 17, 2014)

$2-$3 unless your house is in butt .... nowhere. Most stores have a fair per delivery compensation plan the driver gets.

This is in CA so our minimum wage laws aren't total shit like some other states but pizza delivery was the highest paying job (per hour on average at least) I had until I graduated college 

Breakdown (at a Round Table circa 2008):
-$8.35 an hour (minimum wage was $8). Usually worked 4-6 hour shifts.
-$1.50 from the store for every delivery (for gas+vehicle mileage). Could do about 4 deliveries an hour (drove the hell out of my car)
-Kept 100% of my tips on top of that. Usually $2-5 dollars per order.

I had a room mate living off 30 hours a week in San Diego doing this thing for a Papa John's. Was averaging about $18 an hour with a decent chunk of it tax free. If you know the area, have reliable car (or know how to fix shit), and don't care about speed limits pizza delivery is probably the best job you can have as a student (barring any necessary internships of course).

Nothing really beats driving around all day blasting metal, smoking weed, and hitting on girls


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## loqtrall (Dec 17, 2014)

My friend worked as a delivery driver for Dominos and *was not* compensated for minimum wage. He made $4.50 an hour and his miniscule check stubs are evidence of it. Same goes for one of my other friends who delivers for Pizza Hut, same situation. I don't know which establishments compensate, but it's not those two. I worked a Bed Bath & Beyond distribution center taping boxes shut and got paid $5 per hour more than my friend who drove around all day wasting his own gas to deliver pizza to people who just can't seem to pick it up themselves. In my eyes, not tipping someone who spent their own money to bring you hot food to eat is ....ing cruel.


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## wannabguitarist (Dec 17, 2014)

In states where tipped employees are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage per hour the employer, by law, has to make up the difference between what they received and minimum wage if tips could not cover it. Just FYI.


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## troyguitar (Dec 17, 2014)

So I'm getting that the majority of you guys are of the "The system is stupid, but I will continue to perpetuate it" mentality - is that a correct interpretation?

Or do you actually believe that tips *should* be expected regardless of service level?

If it should be expected, why not build that cost directly into the bill rather than making it some big unwritten "rule"?


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## wannabguitarist (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> So I'm getting that the majority of you guys are of the "The system is stupid, but I will continue to perpetuate it" mentality - is that a correct interpretation?
> 
> Or do you actually believe that tips *should* be expected regardless of service level?
> 
> If it should be expected, why not build that cost directly into the bill rather than making it some big unwritten "rule"?



Isn't the tip the cost of convenience? You don't have to leave your house because someone else brought the food to you. It's up to you how much that is worth


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 17, 2014)

BlackMastodon said:


> As for Zebov I just remember him flying off the handle several times and going off on rants, bitching about rep, attacking other members (that food thread he started where he talked about f**king with peoples' orders when he delivered then comes to mind). So yeah, he broke rules I'm pretty sure.



As I recall, after getting a NON-permanent ban, he came back and went on an antisemitic tirade against Max (might've even been from a duplicate account before the initial ban was over) so the non-perma became a permaban. Negging a mod won't get you banned, but ranting on about him being a filthy Jew _will._

On the topic: I'm a generous tipper, when I can afford to be. I'd feel shitty tipping less than $3 for anything under $10, and above that I just play it by ear with $5 as the starting point. That said, though, there's no tipping here in Korea, and I don't miss it at all .


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## troyguitar (Dec 17, 2014)

wannabguitarist said:


> Isn't the tip the cost of convenience? You don't have to leave your house because someone else brought the food to you. It's up to you how much that is worth



It's not up to me though, is it? The thread consensus is that tipping is in practice NOT optional at all and even the worst service imaginable deserves a 10+% "participation trophy" for continuing to live and breathe.


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## loqtrall (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> It's not up to me though, is it? The thread consensus is that tipping is in practice NOT optional at all and even the worst service imaginable deserves a 10+% "participation trophy" for continuing to live and breathe.


 
I'm not sure how delivering a pizza has a satisfaction scale. They tell you the cost, take the money, give you the pizza then split. You didn't order pizza from a 4-star restaurant. They don't open the box and say "our pizzas are made with the finest cheeses and pepperoni" and serve it to you with a bottle of chilled white wine. They bring food to your doorstep so you don't have to go get it yourself, that's worth a tip. I'd pay a friend to do that, let alone a stranger.


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## TonyGD (Dec 17, 2014)

The last time I ordered from Pizza Guys online and they had a tip calculator at the checkout. 
I still tipped the delivery person a second time because I was feeling quite generous that day... 
In general they're still providing a service of making and bringing you food that you otherwise could have: Came in and picked up yourself, or just completely made on your own...but unless their staff does something completely awful ya might as well throw em something nice. 
Home made pizza does rule pretty hard though.


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## Watty (Dec 17, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> or blame the employers for your low wages, not the consumers.
> 
> I never order delivery because I don't want to tip for service whether or not it's extraordinary, therefore there are fewer delivery jobs in existence because of my actions. Would you rather have no tip or no job?
> 
> ...



Thanks for having the balls to say this. Tipping is bull shit. I worked retail for 5 years and 3 of those involved having to deal with hauling large items out of a packed warehouse and out to a customers' car. I routinely got sweaty, bruised, and sometimes cut as a result, let alone not being able to do my other work for 15 minutes or more. Not once did I expect to receive a tip, let alone have the thought enter my mind.

You want more money for the work you do? Take it up with your manager.

**Note: I still tip in restaurants due to the amount of shit I receive for this position.*



vilk said:


> This is not a debate.



Uh.....it kind of is. There's people on both sides with valid points. One side, however, has the full weight of *every other industry* on their side.



vilk said:


> If you do not tip people who rely on it as part of their living, you are:
> 1)An _*asshole*_
> 2)Cheap
> 3)Looked down upon by your peers for the above two reasons



You aren't an asshole for not caring about other people in a monetary compensation capacity. If that was the case, everyone the world over would be an asshole for not helping out homeless folks et al.
You aren't necessarily cheap. If you can't afford the tip on top of the meal in the first place, you shouldn't have ordered it, but not tipping doesn't mean you're a penny pincher.
Eh, I'll give you that one, despite it being bullshit and entirely dependent on the individual in question.



vilk said:


> Honestly, I feel it's an excellent way to make a character call. When I see someone who is a bad tipper, I judge them on several parameters-- greed, propriety, tact, social awareness...



I'm not greedy, to the extent that I don't go out of my way to screw people over to make a buck. I'm not sure exactly what you intended to say by propriety. Tact only applies in a situation where everyone expects that you will tip, so basically you mean to say peer pressure, which is even more bullshit. And then social awareness?! Of course we're aware of it being a social norm....but that doesn't mean you have to do it or that's it's a good thing! Drinking alcohol in excess (or no) is a social norm. Does that mean everyone should get drunk all the time? Nope.



vilk said:


> Go ahead. Excuse yourself whatever stupid way you want. But I and everyone else know that you're pretty much knowingly doing something bad to a stranger just because you can get away with it without legal repercussion.



I did, see above. And your rationale here is off the ....ing wall. Are you kidding me? Doing something bad?!?!?!? I don't walk up to people on the street and say, "hey, I work for the company that keeps your water running, why don't you pay me on top of paying them your monthly bill." Again, if you don't like what you're paid, talk to management. If they can find other willing people willing to take the job with the shit pay, that's a sign that the system is ....ed up, not that people aren't being generous enough. It's a vicious circle that's being perpetuated by the fact that people feel they have to tip. If restaurants want to charge me an extra dollar to make up for the difference, that's fine by me...I can then make the call up front as to whether or not I can afford it.



vilk said:


> When I'm with someone who tips like a jerk, I call them out. And I fix their tip. If I'm with someone who tries to not tip at all, I tell them whats up, pay the tip for them, and then tell them I'm not going to go out with them if they don't start tipping.



Really? This seems excessive to the point of being ridiculous, let alone a good way to lose friends.



vilk said:


> If you can't "afford" to tip your bartender, go to the liquor store. If you can't tip your server, go to mcdonalds. If you can't tip your delivery driver, pick it up yourself.



If you want the bartender to make more money, ask his manager to give him a raise.
If you want your server to make more money, ask her manager to give her a raise.
If you want your delivery driver to make more money, ask his manager to give him a raise.

I can spit out statements that sound good on paper too, but they do nothing to help the issue. The onus is not on me to pay someone's wages unless they work for the government. The reason we go to these places and rely on these people to do things for us is because their employer provides us that service for a set cost. I'd imagine you wouldn't be okay with trying on a nice suit, paying for it, and then having the manager ask you to pay the person who sewed it together prior to leaving the store. You expect that cost to be incorporated into the item you're purchasing. If it works that way in every other industry, why not the service industry?



vilk said:


> Stop trying to pretend to yourself that not tipping is OK.



Stop trying to convince yourself that this social norm needs to remain just that. Also, look into just how many people in the service industry appreciate the fact that tipping exists. I've seen plenty of first hand accounts of just how shitty it is, even if everyone did tip. It's a system that ultimately allows corporations to screw over their employees and their customers....so take that in your "legal repercussions" analogy and smoke it.



vilk said:


> Edit: Just to be clear I'm talking about in the United States.



I should think that your analogy should apply everywhere money is exchanged in a capitalist economy. By adding this qualifier, you're kind of shooting the bulk of your supporting argument in the foot.

__________________________________________________

Maybe this will help make it clearer:

Say you go to Olive Garden and order some a bottle of wine. Your server goes into the "cellar" and carries it out. You tip him 20% at the end of the meal and maybe this ends up being $20.
Now say you go to an upscale Italian joint and order a significantly more expensive bottle of wine. Your server goes into the cellar and carries it out. You tip him 20% at the end of the meal and maybe this ends up being $200.

Now, which waiter worked harder? Are we expected to account for the extra steps potentially taken to bring the wine? 

Obviously that clarification is bullshit, but it illustrates the point. For all intents are purposes, both waiters could live in the same area, have the same commute, have the same general expenses, and live the same kind of life outside of work. Does one DESERVE the $200 tip more than the other? I say no. The difference comes from where they work and the cost of goods, both of which are directly associated with the employer. Now, obviously it'd be more difficult to get into the nice restaurant as an employee, but that shouldn't matter to the argument on the whole as we're talking about the act of tipping, and not about how hard it is to secure "upscale" employment.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 17, 2014)

I agree that tipping is dumb, because people should get equal pay for equal work. HOWEVER, people _don't_ get equal pay for equal work. Waiters and other similar occupations make less than minimum wage because they're expected to make up the difference in tips. When people don't tip them, they're making less than minimum wage. 

That's shitty, of course, and it's understandable to be opposed to that system, but honestly, what would _not_ tipping them accomplish? Do non-tippers think "That'll show 'em! F_u_ck the system!" when they don't tip, as if not doing so is sending some kind of message to managers? Do they think they're initiating a change in the way things are done by not tipping? That's not helping _anyone_, it's only hurting the employee you're stiffing. 

What _can_ be done, though? Maybe employees should strike for fair wages, with the added caveat that once they get them, they won't be allowed to accept tips. Maybe the people who are opposed to the way things are done should work on a campaign to enact workplace laws mandating a minimum wage for _everyone_ and making tipping something someone doesn't need in order to make a living wage. There are probably other ways I'm not thinking of that people could try to fix the system, but just not tipping is _not_ one of those ways.

Until things change, maybe just look at the tip as part of the cost, that way you don't feel like you're paying them extra "just for doing their job"? You're not buying a $15 large pizza, you're buying an $18 large pizza. Hell, if tipping is done away with and their wages are raised, that $15 pizza is going to become an $18 pizza anyway, so you might as well look at it like that now .


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## Watty (Dec 17, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Until things change, maybe just look at the tip as part of the cost, that way you don't feel like you're paying them extra "just for doing their job"? You're not buying a $15 large pizza, you're buying an $18 large pizza. Hell, if tipping is done away with and their wages are raised, that $15 pizza is going to become an $18 pizza anyway, so you might as well look at it like that now .



Ah, come now, we know appearances are everything!


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## asher (Dec 17, 2014)

The "well what do we do?" crap has already been answered.

Not tipping doesn't show the owners who's boss or anything, or isn't going to be how you change it, it just continues to fvck over the employees. Get the laws changed. But you don't need to make the workers suffer for it.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

asher said:


> The "well what do we do?" crap has already been answered.
> 
> Not tipping doesn't show the owners who's boss or anything, or isn't going to be how you change it, it just continues to fvck over the employees. Get the laws changed. But you don't need to make the workers suffer for it.



I am willing to do 2 things:

Don't tip.

or

Don't order delivery.

Which one hurts the workers more, people not tipping or their job not existing at all?

(and for the record and those throwing neg rep because I don't believe in tipping: I choose the second option. I actively avoid ANY service for which tipping is "mandatory" - the only time I ever ordered delivery was when I lived in a big city and didn't own a car)


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

Well you not ordering delivery hardly destroys their job. I'm sure if the majority of people who don't tip didn't order delivery, the pizza delivery business would still be in full swing. I think you're assuming your approach to tipping delivery drivers is the opinion of the majority, which isn't the case. It's more than just normal to tip someone who does things for you. Drivers bring your food to your house, waiters/waitresses bring you your food and regularly check up on you, Bartenders give you drinks and regularly check up on you, all of those actions seem pretty deserving of a small tip. Seriously, man, how is tipping $3-5 a burden at all? If you're ordering an already grossly overpriced pizza, I'm sure you can afford to give a few bucks to someone who just spent their own gas money to bring you said fvcking pizza.

I'm pretty sure your order being replaced with the order of someone who will actually tip the driver would be a more optimum choice for the driver.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

Looked at yet another way: I order pizza 2-3 times a week because it's cheaper than any other dinner option including making food at home. If I have to pay 20% more, it's no longer cheap and I stop ordering...

Would you rather have 3 orders with no tips or zero orders?


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

Let's say an average pizza delivery order is $15 for one or two people, that's three times per week: $45. That's three $3 tips if you tip 20%. THREE DOLLARS. Assume it's more per delivery, $20. That's three FOUR DOLLAR TIPS. Four dollars, man. Really? Your $15 order is now $18. So much more expensive.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

20% is a *lot*. 

How would you like a 20% pay cut?

If 20% is so little, just paypal me over 20% of your paycheck. It's only 20% bro.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

20% of my paycheck is $60, you want a new video game, bro? I can spare $60 per week. 20% of $15 *IS NOT* a lot of money. It's $3. I can make 3 dollars by asking people for it in front of a Wal Mart. Three dollars is nothing to people who have jobs that pay minimum wage or above, which I'm hoping you have.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

It's interesting that you find 20% to be a negligible increase.

Are you a member of Congress?

An extra $3 per meal is more than I spend on my meals total... that's almost $300 a month. I average about $2 per meal, just under $200 a month spent on food counting going out.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

What are you even talking about? You said you order delivery a maximum of 3 times per week, that's 3 x 3 = 9, 9 x 4 = 36. $36. A "total" of "$236" per month (which seems highly unlikely if you're also ordering pizza 2-3 times per week). $36 is a lot more money to you, per month? Maybe even less?

Edit: And if you eat on $2 per meal, that sounds sort of bland in the first place. You seem like someone who is very stingy with even small amounts of money. I'd hate to see you purchase a guitar.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> What are you even talking about? You said you order delivery a maximum of 3 times per week, that's 3 x 3 = 9, 9 x 4 = 36. $36. A "total" of "$236" per month (which seems highly unlikely if you're also ordering pizza 2-3 times per week). $36 is a lot more money to you, per month? Maybe even less?
> 
> Edit: And if you eat on $2 per meal, that sounds sort of bland in the first place. You seem like someone who is very stingy with even small amounts of money. I'd hate to see you purchase a guitar.



Yeah, 20% more is a lot more.

If I got a 20% raise I'd be doing a happy dance because... 20% is a lot.

You sound like you're a big fan of wasting money on little things and letting it add up to a big amount. I prefer to be cheap about little things so I can waste money on big stuff. $36 per month = $432 per year. That's an extra day on the race track. I'm willing to drive 3 minutes to the pizza place in order to spend an extra day at the track. It's all about priorities.

I don't make a lot of money, so I focus every cent I can on the things that I actually care about. Spending $2400 instead of $5000+ per year on food+drink enables me to spend $2600+ per year on racing.

If I ate and drank like you, I'd have to sell the car and sit at bars/restaurants on the weekends instead of doing something interesting.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

Ate and drank like me? You don't know how I eat and drink. Everything I've said is based off of how you said YOU eat and drink.

I don't order pizza ANYWHERE near 2-3 times per week. Maybe once or twice per MONTH. MAYBE. You're the one who seems to have erratically weird eating habits. I buy my own food to cook in my own house, I barely eat out, as it's usually overpriced unless you're eating off the dollar menu. I spend maybe $150 per month on food for myself, that I cook, and I'm more than able to live on that. 

I don't know where you're getting this "20% increase in pay" or "20% raise" shit. We're talking about tipping a delivery driver, not paying them 20% more than they already make. We're talking about tipping a delivery driver THREE FVCKING DOLLARS for delivering you pizza, not paying them 20% of their monthly salary for delivering you a pizza. Yes, 20% of SOME NUMBERS are very large amounts. 20% of $800 is $160, that's a lot. But 20% of $15 is $3. That's *not* alot. That's $360 annually for someone like you who seems to order a substantially large amount of pizza if you pay the driver a $3 tip 3 times per week for an entire year. Most people don't order that much pizza. Most people would pay less than a quarter of that per year in tips to delivery drivers. You're still thinking in a "my opinion is a majority opinion" mindset when that's not nearly the truth.

You're starting to make less and less sense the more you respond and derail this.

EDIT: Also, just for due course, I get a substantial amount of money taken out of my pay for taxes, so when I get that money back I can "go to the race track".


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

I know I'm in the minority... hence the piles of neg rep and dirty looks given any time I state my opinions on tipping. The difference is I'm not making judgments about your worth as human beings simply because of a small philosophical disagreement.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

You want an on topic discussion:

The absolute lowest wage posted so far is $4.50 an hour for a delivery driver. One tip per hour puts them at or above minimum wage.

How much more than minimum wage does a zero skill employee deserve?

and, more than that, Why is it OK for you to decide that they deserve a lot more and not OK for me to decide that they don't?

even further, Why is it the responsibility of the consumer to ensure fair wages for employees?


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

When you buy a $40 pair of jeans, do you go back to the loading dock and hand $8 to the underpaid kid who unloaded them from the truck, doing backbreaking work for crappy pay?


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 18, 2014)

I think it's fair play to just not partake in services that traditionally involve tipping, so hats off to you for that. Being anti-tipping and refusing to tip the people who work for tips: Shitty. Being anti-tipping and avoiding situations that involve tipping: No problem. That's at least putting your mon... erm... philosophy where your mouth his.

When it comes down to it, there's nothing wrong with Troyguitar's stance at all, really. Tipping is, IMO, a necessary evil in a society that allows for sub-minium wages for service workers, which is a shitty situation to begin with. In a way, taking his stance and just not patronizing establishments that pay a pittance because they expect their imployees to get tips isn't altogether too far removed from refusing to buy an electronics product made in a Foxcom factory because of how they mistreat their employees.

EDIT: To change "Holloway" to "Troyguitar." I always confuse the two, and I have no idea why .


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

When your trash is collected every week, do you go tip the guy picking it up? He's killing his physical health just so that you can spare yourself from driving to drop your trash off yourself.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> an electronics product made in a Foxcom factory because of how they mistreat their employees.



Interesting idea.

When you buy a $200 new iPhone, do you go to China and hand $50 to the severely underpaid employee who assembled it?


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 18, 2014)

I _wish_ my iPhone was only $200


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

Well yeah, that's only the subsidized price - I guess the Chinese guy really should be getting closer to $200 himself.

The point being driven at here is:

Tipping a delivery driver can be interpreted as spending your own money/time combating what you perceive to be a societal injustice. That's fine - but *if you are not spending ALL of your time and money combating EVERY societal injustice which you perceive then you have zero room to judge anyone else for picking and choosing their own battles.*


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 18, 2014)

Don't look at me. I'm fine with they way you're doing it .


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

Sorry that's not meant to be aimed at you at all, it's aimed at these holier than thou types acting like they're mother theresa by paying extra for their pizza and I'm hitler for disagreeing with them  (worse than that, they admit to actively guilting and shaming their peers into adopting their stance )

Here's looking at you, vilk.


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2014)

I'm kind of like Troy in that I just tend to avoid tipping situations a lot of the time. (Though, more for ignorance than anything else - I was super excited to see this thread because I NEVER know how much to tip the pizza guy!). I always go pick up my own pizza, avoid using a valet, and take my own bags up to my room. I just don't know what to do with tips in those situations, and I'm a little uncomfortable with some of them (like the bellhops practically ripping my suitcase out of my hand to take it up). 

The one area that does drive me nuts is the tipping of taxi cab drivers. In most big cities the cabbies are so regulated that they are by and large the same. I always tip pretty generously, but I just don't get why it's not a flat fee. It doesn't make any sense.

I agree that tipping for good service just makes sense. Economists love financial incentives, and it's a classic one. But where the service cannot vary, or does not vary, it doesn't make sense to involve tips, other than to allow the employer to avoid payroll taxes, unemployment taxes, and to advertise low prices. 

And I would love to be the guy who can stiff a crappy waiter, but the truth is I tip 15% for atrocious service, 20-25% for good service.  I'm a sucker, but I used to wait tables, so I have a good deal of empathy for those guys. 

If I had my way, I would make the employers pay the employees what they should be paid, charge extra for pizza deliveries, etc., and then let me tip for extraordinary service. The system is kind of broken in that everything is based on HAVING to give a tip, which doesn't benefit the employee (driver, waiter, etc.) or the consumer. It ONLY benefits the employer. And since bi businesses are the ones that benefit, it will be a cold day in Hell before we ever see the industry change.


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2014)

I think the REAL question we should be asking is how much should we tip a hooker?


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## FILTHnFEAR (Dec 18, 2014)

I can't really say much about tipping the pizza delivery guy, because I can't honestly remember the last time I ordered delivery. If I eat pizza it's usually the kind I make at home or at the bar.

When it comes to eating at a restaurant I'll tip if the service is good. If I'm out spending $20 on a meal and a couple beers, what's another 5-7 bucks on top of it? Nothing.

On the other hand, this tipping just because it's what's expected whether the service was good or not....... that. I'm sorry, but if your job is that bad that you take little to no interest in quality service, find another job. I was young and needed a job but if the one I was at was that bad, you know what I did? I found something else. The attitude that you have some shitty job and you've just been forced into it and have no other choice and people should feel sorry for you is pathetic. Better yourself and get something worth your time. Quite a few people do.

I understand this from both sides. I worked in restaurants from the time I was 14 till about 23 as a cook. I know the deal. Some customers will be shady on the tip no matter what. And shame on them, that's shitty. But some servers just have terrible work ethic and actually think that they should be tipped fat regardless of their performance. Well, sorry, welcome to the real world. You might give great service and get tipped accordingly, or you might not. That's the industry.

And this "tip well or you're a terrible person" attitude is BS. Grow up.


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## chopeth (Dec 18, 2014)

Make your own pizza and you won't have to tip anyone


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## Grindspine (Dec 18, 2014)




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## jemfloral (Dec 18, 2014)

tedtan said:


> Jobs that involve tips or commissions are not required to pay minimum wage, so waiters, pizza delivery drivers, etc. are not in the minimum wage camp and speaking up won't do any good.





wannabguitarist said:


> In states where tipped employees are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage per hour the employer, by law, has to make up the difference between what they received and minimum wage if tips could not cover it. Just FYI.



Thanks for clarifying my point for me, mate! Was glad to see it responded to before I could get back to do so myself.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 18, 2014)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> I can't really say much about tipping the pizza delivery guy, because I can't honestly remember the last time I ordered delivery. If I eat pizza it's usually the kind I make at home or at the bar.
> 
> When it comes to eating at a restaurant I'll tip if the service is good. If I'm out spending $20 on a meal and a couple beers, what's another 5-7 bucks on top of it? Nothing.
> 
> On the other hand, this tipping just because it's what's expected whether the service was good or not....... that. I'm sorry, but if your job is that bad that you take little to no interest in quality service, find another job. I was young and needed a job but if the one I was at was that bad, you know what I did? I found something else. The attitude that you have some shitty job and you've just been forced into it and have no other choice and people should feel sorry for you is pathetic. Better yourself and get something worth your time. Quite a few people do.



Or, if you're not in the best place to find a new job, offer great service and earn the tips. Pizza drivers can't do much wrong, and because of the whole gas/maintenance thing, I feel they deserve a tip more times than a waiter or waitress so I always tip them. I've never had a rude driver, in fact the ones around here are ....ing great and friendly.

I've had some absolute shitty servers before. Condescending ass hats who literally scoffed at me every time I said something. If you're going to do absolute shitty rude work, you don't deserve my, or anyone's, sympathy that you're getting paid less than minimum. Still, I've very rarely not tipped, and when I didn't, I felt it was absolutely necessary to not reward such bummy work.

A lot of people don't like their jobs. Just don't wear it on your sleeves and bum out the people who are there for a good time.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 18, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> I think the REAL question we should be asking is how much should we tip a hooker?



If you've got a hooker, hopefully you give them more than just the tip. *badum psh*

Sorry for the double post. iPad makes editing/quoting different things difficult.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 18, 2014)

Fun tipping story:

About a month or so ago, I was at a buddy's house with a few others and we ordered some Chinese food. My buddy lives on his own and has a big ping pong table in the living room which is right next to the door. We were playing ping pong when the delivery guy came, a friendly older guy, so my buddy hands him the paddle while he goes to grab his wallet. The guy puts the food down on the table and proceeds to kick some ass at ping pong for a couple minutes with us. He got a good tip just for being awesome.


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## ghostred7 (Dec 18, 2014)

Personally....I think they should just do away with the sub-minimum wage for waiters/waitresses/delivery drivers/etc. That way everyone is left with tipping based solely on performance. You already are free to choose to tip or not and that is everyone's individual choice.

I tip due to exceptional service or convenience. If an 19 year old kid hauled pizza, soda, sides, etc up my flight of steps in the rain so I didn't have to get my fat ass off the couch, then damn right I'm going to give them something extra b/c it saved me from having to in undesirable conditions.

I will say this: There is no obligation to tip anything. It's everyone's individual decision to do so or not...no one here should be judging what someone else does (or doesn't) with their money.

I will also say this: I've had service that was so shitty I tipped $.01. The amt I tip is directly tied to this logic. For example: when sitting in a restaurant...don't let my cup sit empty for 15min. If I ask for something, don't come back for a drink refill and have the need for me to remind you of what I asked for. <--- Stuff like this will cause poor (or non-existent) tipping. The $.01 tip is reserved for the complete shit-storm of service.


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## Alex Kenivel (Dec 18, 2014)

anonymous neg repper said:


> don't be dumb



I wasnt serious, but thinking about it, it makes sense.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

ghostred7 said:


> I will say this: There is no obligation to tip anything. It's everyone's individual decision to do so or not...no one here should be judging what someone else does (or doesn't) with their money.


 
I wholeheartedly agree. My argument was that troy was comparing a $3 tip to a 20% increase in wages, which is farfetched to say the least. He seems to be under the impression that they don't *deserve* to get tips, at all, and that delivery driving doesn't count as a service. Which is bullshit, because they bring food to your house *for you*. He's acting like giving the delivery guy some pocket change is like paying the guy's yearly salary (which, surprise, the pizza place pays him).

His demeanor can be wholely described as ".... this guy, he's just bringing me pizza, not like he's doing anything worthwhile", and that's a fvcked up point of view to have about ANYONE who is *doing shit for you*, IMO.

It's entirely up to the individual whether or not they tip. But that doesn't mean you don't look like a cheap douche when you refuse to tip someone who did their best to serve you, probably broke laws to get your pizza to you as fast as they could, didn't just throw the pizza at you and take your money. How hard is it to give $3-4 to a kid who just wasted his own gas to come bring your lazy ass a hot pizza to eat?

I agree that decreasing wages because of tips is shitty, and I love the idea of just paying delivery drivers minimum wage if they refuse tips. But that's not how it is, and this business "norm" of lower wages because of tips has been around for decades. Refusing to tip isn't helping to solve that, it's just giving the shaft to an employee who's already grossly underpaid.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

Why are these underpaid kids so special?

What about every other underpaid worker who participates in any good or service you use? Why don't we have to tip all of them?


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Why are these underpaid kids so special?
> 
> What about every other underpaid worker who participates in any good or service you use? Why don't we have to tip all of them?


 
There aren't many other service jobs that pay employees under minimum wage, maybe manual labor, but not the service industry. Is hauling wood to people all day worth $8 an hour? Maybe not, but they still get minimum wage. You'd have real trouble finding a job delivering heavy shit that only pays $4.50 an hour.

Edit: Your attitude seems to be getting more and more pompous. This is beginning to resemble that "Commander-In-Chief female guitarist/vocalist" thread where you went on that childish power metal vocals tyrade, which is still evident by your signature.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> There aren't many other service jobs that pay employees under minimum wage, maybe manual labor, but not the service industry. Is hauling wood to people all day worth $8 an hour? Maybe not, but they still get minimum wage. You'd have real trouble finding a job delivering heavy shit that only pays $4.50 an hour.



So you don't buy anything that was made or moved by a worker being paid less than 'murican minimum wage?

Where'd the components in the computer you typed that post on come from?


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## vilk (Dec 18, 2014)

Watty said:


> Thanks for having the balls to say this. Tipping is bull shit. I worked retail for 5 years and 3 of those involved having to deal with hauling large items out of a packed warehouse and out to a customers' car. I routinely got sweaty, bruised, and sometimes cut as a result, let alone not being able to do my other work for 15 minutes or more. Not once did I expect to receive a tip, let alone have the thought enter my mind.


Oh, you mean a job that paid you a regular wage? I guess I wouldn't expect to receive a tip either. Kind of like my job now--I don't get tips, but also I'm getting paid for the work I do.



Watty said:


> You want more money for the work you do? Take it up with your manager
> 
> If you want the bartender to make more money, ask his manager to give him a raise.
> If you want your server to make more money, ask her manager to give her a raise.
> If you want your delivery driver to make more money, ask his manager to give him a raise.


 I can't understand how you wouldn't immediately see how daft these statements are. You realize that most people working these jobs are uneducated, unqualified, pretty much in no position to made demands of their boss. What if you're stiffing the new guy? He's gonna ask for a raise the first day? And regardless, there's always going to be bottom tier jobs. You can't blame the workers of these jobs for not getting paid more, as it's not anything they have control over. Sure, you're right, it would all be a lot easier if employers just paid more and we did away with the whole tipping system. But that's not reality.

Stiffing workers does not deliver any message to their employer other than that you were disappointed with the work.



Watty said:


> You aren't an asshole for not caring about other people in a monetary compensation capacity. If that was the case, everyone the world over would be an asshole for not helping out homeless folks et al.


You understand how this is different than not paying someone who you personally asked to perform a service for you, right?



Watty said:


> I'm not greedy, to the extent that I don't go out of my way to screw people over to make a buck.


 But you are screwing that worker when you don't pay him for his work. See, that's the thing-- the system is _designed_ so that the responsibility of paying this person is split between the employer and the customer. When you don't pay the guy, it's not the employer who isn't paying him; it's _you alone_ that isn't paying.
I'm sorry that you don't like that. It's actually not my favorite thing, either. I rather enjoyed never tipping anyone when I lived in Japan. But I'm not so ignorant as to think I'm some kind of slacktivist by screwing over people who are doing work for me.




Watty said:


> Really? This seems excessive to the point of being ridiculous, let alone a good way to lose friends.


I think I may have misrepresented myself (read: lied). I've never actually had to call someone out at the dinner table (because I hang out with decent people); rather just in conversation I've threatened to do as I said. I have fixed people's tips when they go away from the table though. It's pretty hard to fix the tip of a pizza delivery driver. But I've had it where someone is like "Duhhh you think 1$ is a good tip?" and I say no and give them more money. 




Watty said:


> The onus is not on me to pay someone's wages unless they work for the government. The reason we go to these places and rely on these people to do things for us is because their employer provides us that service for a set cost.


 Well, I mean, this is true for many industries, but certainly not for the ones where people are working for tips.



Watty said:


> I'd imagine you wouldn't be okay with trying on a nice suit, paying for it, and then having the manager ask you to pay the person who sewed it together prior to leaving the store. You expect that cost to be incorporated into the item you're purchasing. If it works that way in every other industry, why not the service industry?


 Because the people in the service industry wages are figured with the expectancy of making tips. Regardless of whether or not you feel that should be happening. Regardless of whether or not you personally tip someone. See, when you don't tip the person sewing clothes together (let's pretend the clothes are made in USA), it's ok because they're actually getting paid double that of someone working for tips. 




Watty said:


> Maybe this will help make it clearer:
> 
> Say you go to Olive Garden and order some a bottle of wine. Your server goes into the "cellar" and carries it out. You tip him 20% at the end of the meal and maybe this ends up being $20.
> Now say you go to an upscale Italian joint and order a significantly more expensive bottle of wine. Your server goes into the cellar and carries it out. You tip him 20% at the end of the meal and maybe this ends up being $200.
> ...



This is a separate issue. Why does a dermatologist make more shaving off moles than ER doctors zapping people back to life? Does the dude sitting right across from me in this office doing less work than I am deserve to be getting paid more? (He is.) Why would someone get paid more to play games with a round ball and a round stick than with a flat ball and a flat stick?

People with the same/different jobs get paid similarly/differently. That issue is larger than the simple fact that you should be paying people who do work for you.


Tipping is part of the labor cost. And to ignore that is a flagrant disregard for the people doing the work. Improper, if you will (remember that I mentioned propriety?)


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> So you don't buy anything that was made or moved by a worker being paid less than 'murican minimum wage?
> 
> Where'd the components in the computer you typed that post on come from?


 
The components in my computer were made in a country vastly differing in laws and culture than my own. We're strictly talking about the United States, seeing as it's even been explained that delivery drivers get paid over $8 per hour in Canada. This is a US issue about tipping pizza delivery drivers in the US, not a foreign policy issue about underpaying chinese workers in fvcking China.

Edit: I also find it childish that you're just trying to throw stones since your arguement collapsed. "Well why don't you tip everyone in the world!?", how is that a viable argument on this topic at all?


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> The components in my computer were made in a country vastly differing in laws and culture than my own. We're strictly talking about the United States, seeing as it's even been explained that delivery drivers get paid over $8 per hour in Canada. This is a US issue about tipping pizza delivery drivers in the US, not a foreign policy issue about underpaying chinese workers in fvcking China.



Chinese workers provide services for you too... why are they less deserving of your money?


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

Because I don't live in China and we're not talking about China at all.

If a Chinese worker personally delivered my laptop to me, damn right I'd tip them handsomely.

It sounds like you're pulling ideas out of your ass trying to defend some weird point you're trying to make, but it's not working. You're just derailing.

Another edit: Just to prove a point, the Chinese workers arent doing me a service, they're doing a service for the corporation or company they work for. I went and bought the laptop myself, from a store, there was no service of underpaid workers directed at me. If there was, I'd compensate, because I pay people who do work for me. Now go ahead and spew some bullshit saying "That's not fair to the workers, you should have built your own laptop" or some shit like that.


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## JoeyW (Dec 18, 2014)

vilk said:


> You're right Joe, that point does have no validity. People don't make tips in Japan because service jobs pay regular wages, unlike here.



Whoa hey, sounds like a good solution then huh?


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

^ Exactly. Sadly, that's not how it is.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> Because I don't live in China and we're not talking about China at all.
> 
> If a Chinese worker personally delivered my laptop to me, damn right I'd tip them handsomely.
> 
> ...



If generalizing an argument in order to clarify the positions of each side on the specific issue is a derailment, then sure.

I think that your position might be reasonable, but the way you are stating it is poor. It sounds like you're moving toward something along the lines of:

If each of us tips to make up for wage unfairness for each good/service which we receive directly, then all wage unfairness will be taken care of as money moves along the supply chain.

That is indeed true if everyone participates. (However my side is also true if everyone participates...)


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## MFB (Dec 18, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> What about every other underpaid worker who participates in any good or service you use? Why don't we have to tip all of them?



I'm not going to waste time Googling to find out specifics since they're most likely not relevant to what I'm about to say, but what other underpaid workers can you think of? Because every other job service you've mentioned in this thread is a different type of industry (retail vs. food) and in retail we make minimum wage per hour because, _tips are not included in our hourly wage nor are they allowed to be taken._ Christ, last week I literally walked over one aisle and grabbed something for a customer who claims "she looked everywhere" and she tried to tip me! Did I take it? No. Did I want to? No.

Why?

Because A. I'm not allowed to, B. I get paid more than handsomely to do my job which is more mental stress than physical. If I was someone who was getting paid half of what I am now and expected to use my own car and my own gas while delivering food to YOU who is sitting in a warm house during a (potentially cold, rainy, or any other type of environment which didn't allow you to come pick it up) day - then fvck yes, I would've taken (and certainly EXPECTED) a tip. It's a job that has a 100% chance of ruining your livelihood at any moment because if that car gets hit, now you've got to:

A. Get your car fixed
B. Have MONEY to get your car fixed
C. Still get to work while car is damaged
D. Pay towing/storage fees
E. Fight insurance company trying to pay out less than you deserve

There's so so SO many factors to it that you're not looking at, over what, $3 god damn dollars on a pizza? If you want them to get a job that pays them more so you don't have to worry about tipping them, maybe you just shouldn't order out as much so they don't have to deal with your bullshit? Because there ALWAYS going to be somebody else to order food from them.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> I think that your position might be reasonable, but the way you are stating it is poor. It sounds like you're moving toward something along the lines of:
> 
> If each of us tips to make up for wage unfairness for each good/service which we receive directly, then all wage unfairness will be taken care of as money moves along the supply chain.


 
I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that not tipping a delivery driver who tries their best to serve you by bringing you hot food with their own gas and vehicle is your choice, but not wanting to fork over a measly $3-5 for someone who get's paid shit wages and just literally brought food to you so you didn't have to go pick it up makes you look like a cheap ass. My arguments have nothing to do with compensating their wages. What I'm arguing is that downright *refusing *to tip someone who used their own resources to bring your lazy ass food makes you seem like a shitty person. That's it. There's no hidden message or deeper meaning in my words.




MFB said:


> I'm not going to waste time Googling to find out specifics since they're most likely not relevant to what I'm about to say, but what other underpaid workers can you think of? Because every other job service you've mentioned in this thread is a different type of industry (retail vs. food) and in retail we make minimum wage per hour because, _tips are not included in our hourly wage nor are they allowed to be taken._ Christ, last week I literally walked over one aisle and grabbed something for a customer who claims "she looked everywhere" and she tried to tip me! Did I take it? No. Did I want to? No.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


 
Spot on!


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## tedtan (Dec 18, 2014)

wannabguitarist said:


> In states where tipped employees are allowed to be paid less than minimum wage per hour the employer, by law, has to make up the difference between what they received and minimum wage if tips could not cover it. Just FYI.


 


jemfloral said:


> Thanks for clarifying my point for me, mate! Was glad to see it responded to before I could get back to do so myself.



The Fair Labor Standards Act requires employers to make up the difference.

But how many of those employers actively ensure that they're following the law? And how many of the (typically young and inexperienced) people working in these positions are savvy enough to know and enforce that law? And even if they did, would they have a job to come back to afterwards? It may illegal to terminate an employee for requiring the employer to follow the law, but it's just easy for a manager to write them up every time they're late delivering a pizza or make any other infraction and, three strikes later, that employee is out (of a job).

So while there is a law on the books (and may be additional laws at the state and local level, depending on location), let's not pretend that they adequately address the issue of under-paying workers in these positions.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that not tipping a delivery driver who tries their best to serve you by bringing you hot food with their own gas and vehicle is your choice, but not wanting to fork over a measly $3-5 for someone who get's paid shit wages and just literally brought food to you so you didn't have to go pick it up makes you look like a cheap ass. My arguments have nothing to do with compensating their wages. What I'm arguing is that downright *refusing *to tip someone who used their own resources to bring your lazy ass food makes you seem like a shitty person. That's it. There's no hidden message or deeper meaning in my words.



They are paid already. Who are you to say that they deserve more than their base pay and that extra money must come directly from consumers? Last I checked, we're both just random assholes on the internet - not dictators or gods.

Your unsupported judgmental opinion is no more valid than mine, but I'm still not going to call you a shitty person for it.

It's interesting that you and vilk and your other supporters are the only ones throwing names and character judgments around.


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## asher (Dec 18, 2014)

Who are you to say that they deserve to get wage shafted in a way no other industry does?

Specious thinking is specious.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> What I'm arguing is that downright *refusing *to tip someone who used their own resources to bring your lazy ass food makes you seem like a shitty person. That's it.



FYI: That is not an argument.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

asher said:


> Who are you to say that they deserve to get wage shafted in a way no other industry does?
> 
> Specious thinking is specious.



I'm no one, that's why I'm not throwing moral judgments around...


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

You should refer to page 4 where you said I seem like I enjoy wasting money and insisted that my eating and drinking habits (which were not discussed *at all*) are indicative of behavior including sitting around at a bar doing nothing interesting, when my finances, financial point of view, and eating habits had not even been brought up. I've said nothing that others haven't said to you already. My argument has one thing yours doesn't: supporters. FYI: saying that my argument about your stance on tipping "isn't an argument" is about as valid as me saying your argument about my stance on tipping isn't an argument.

You should look up the definition of argument.

Edit: Just for clarification, I'm throwing character judgements around because your stance on this thread and other threads I've seen you argue in color you out to be the person I'm describing you as. If I'm wrong, you're not doing a good job proving otherwise.


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> You should refer to page 4 where you said I seem like I enjoy wasting money and insisted that my eating and drinking habits (which were not discussed *at all*) are indicative of behavior including sitting around at a bar doing nothing interesting, when my finances, financial point of view, and eating habits had not even been brought up.





loqtrall said:


> You seem like someone who is very stingy with even small amounts of money.





troyguitar said:


> You sound like you're a big fan of wasting money on little things and letting it add up to a big amount.



I'm not seeing the moral judgment equivalent to calling you a shitty person, can you quote it directly for me?

By definition, any expenditure of money that is not required for survival is a waste - all of us enjoy wasting money. That's called living.



loqtrall said:


> You should look up the definition of argument.



We could do that, but we're not going to reach any sort of agreement when your premises and conclusion are based on opinion... not that you've provided any real premises to even discuss. You give a one line conclusion without support and call it an argument, cool.


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## Manurack (Dec 18, 2014)

I usually tip $5, maybe more if its my buddy Ryan who I've jammed with a couple of times. Lately, Panago hired a couple of new kids for deliveries. One new kid forgot my 2L bottle of pepsi, said he'd go right back to the store (which is literally less than a minute driving from my apartment) and come back in a few minutes... half an hour later the dumbass new kid shows up with the pepsi, by then the pie was cold. 

I think I tipped the kid like 25 cents hahaha


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## ZeroTolerance94 (Dec 18, 2014)

If anybody is wondering... I tipped the kid $5.

This thread...


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## stevexc (Dec 18, 2014)

Wait, does that make you a cheapskate or a communist? I've only been skimming the thread


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## asher (Dec 18, 2014)

Tldr troyguitar is the only one that makes it out of the warehouse alive (ref the entirely appropriate video clip on page 1)


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## Watty (Dec 18, 2014)

I feel like I can address most of what you said in the first bits by referring you to the Fair Labor Act others have mentioned. Regardless of the follow through on the part of the employer (again, not the customer), the employee has to be paid minimum wage if their tips don't cover the difference. Hence, all these employees are making minimum wage. If you feel you need a raise, take it up with your manager....as I'd already mentioned.



vilk said:


> This is a separate issue. Why does a dermatologist make more shaving off moles than ER doctors zapping people back to life? Does the dude sitting right across from me in this office doing less work than I am deserve to be getting paid more? (He is.) Why would someone get paid more to play games with a round ball and a round stick than with a flat ball and a flat stick?



It's not a separate issue, and you're now sidestepping my argument in order to make a different one. I was talking apples to apples in context while your examples are not driven by an expectation of the customer paying the difference in sub-minimum wages.



vilk said:


> People with the same/different jobs get paid similarly/differently. That issue is larger than the simple fact that you should be paying people who do work for you.



I agree, and again, you're focusing on the wrong portion of the issue.



vilk said:


> Tipping is part of the labor cost. And to ignore that is a flagrant disregard for the people doing the work. Improper, if you will (remember that I mentioned propriety?)



That's just it....it is a part of the labor cost, but that doesn't mean it should fall to the customer. A cost of doing business is just that, a cost of doing business. If there's a margin to be made in order to make something economical, you pass it onto the customer is the form of a higher price, not a "pay what you want" invite that's been reinforced by social norms. And like I said, I still tip, I just think it's complete bullshit.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> We could do that, but we're not going to reach any sort of agreement when your premises and conclusion are based on opinion... not that you've provided any real premises to even discuss. You give a one line conclusion without support and call it an argument, cool.


 
Arguments don't revolve around facts. It's two opposing views. People *argue* about opinions literally all the time (see: religion). You've been spewing mumbo jumbo for the last 2 pages because you've run out of points to make in defense of yourself on the topic. I've given examples of how tipping is a necessary evil, backed by the opinions of other members, and all I've been met with by you is rambling that basically translates to "tipping is stupid and I'm not doing it, here's a bunch of replies that are mildly off-topic".

You went from "tipping is stupid" to "tipping is only good for excellent service" to "Tipping is a waste of money" to "why are pizza delivery drivers deserving of tips" to "why don't you tip everyone" to "your argument isn't an argument" to "what you're saying is baseless opinions".


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## troyguitar (Dec 18, 2014)

Because I'm trying to get you to actually engage with something - instead it's like talking to a wall.

You went from "not tipping makes you a shitty person" to... nowhere. You cite workers being underpaid as your reasoning for tipping being required yet cannot explain why no other underpaid workers must be tipped. Why?


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## Watty (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> Arguments don't revolve around facts. It's two opposing views. People *argue* about opinions literally all the time (see: religion). You've been spewing mumbo jumbo for the last 2 pages because you've run out of points to make in defense of yourself on the topic. I've given examples of how tipping is a necessary evil, backed by the opinions of other members, and all I've been met with by you is rambling that basically translates to "tipping is stupid and I'm not doing it, here's a bunch of replies that are mildly off-topic".
> 
> You went from "tipping is stupid" to "tipping is only good for excellent service" to "Tipping is a waste of money" to "why are pizza delivery drivers deserving of tips" to "why don't you tip everyone" to "your argument isn't an argument" to "what you're saying is baseless opinions".



I feel like what you concluded with is a bit reductionist and therefore doesn't help anything. Essentially your entire position is structured around it being a social norm since we've already established that employers are responsible for the minimum if tips don't cover it.


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## Joose (Dec 18, 2014)

This thread just got a Pizza Hut delivery kid a nice tip from me.

The fact that he was driving a knocking Lumina was also a factor. 

Bill: $22.91
Tip: $7.09

Also, this new Honey Sriracha crust is the tits.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

Watty said:


> I feel like what you concluded with is a bit reductionist and therefore doesn't help anything. Essentially your entire position is structured around it being a social norm since we've already established that employers are responsible for the minimum if tips don't cover it.


 
This entire thread isn't helping anything. My entire position is structured around the idea that delivery drivers who are underpaid and doing their job correctly deserve a small tip. They service people personally by bringing them food that they *could otherwise go pick up themselves. *The tip isn't for the service, it's for the convenience of not having to get up off your ass to get your own food, they'll walk it straight to your door or even to your table so you don't even have to carry the fvcking thing. The tip is for the compensation they *don't* get for using their own resources to bring you your own damned food. You can argue all day long that businesses *could* raise their wages or pay them for gas or service their vehicles, but they don't. You have to realize that the people that have those jobs more than likely have shitty cars that get shit mileage, and they have to drive around the city ALL DAY, every day. Most of their tips more than likely go in their gas tanks so they can continue to get paid.


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Because I'm trying to get you to actually engage with something - instead it's like talking to a wall.
> 
> You went from "not tipping makes you a shitty person" to... nowhere. You cite workers being underpaid as your reasoning for tipping being required yet cannot explain why no other underpaid workers must be tipped. Why?


 
And you've failed to provide an example of a service job that underpays you without tips in the US. You've mentioned some retail jobs, but they make minimum wage. I don't solely believe delivery drivers deserve tips because they're underpaid. I belive they deserve tips because they provide a service out of their own pockets to deliver you food because of simple convenience with a side of laziness. I went from "not tipping makes you *seem like* a shitty person" to nothing because that was my entire fvcking point!


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2014)

Watty brings up a good point about whether you should tip the same percentage in a fancy restaurant as in a cheap one. Personally, unless the service was also fancy, I tip a smaller percent in a fancy restaurant. Like, if I have a bill totaling $20 I'm likely to leave $4-5. But if the bill totals $100 I'm likely to tip somewhere between 15% and 18% (usually just rounding to the nearest easy amount in the total) because most of the time the waiter doesn't appear to have done anything so fancy as to deserve $80/hr wage, or whatever it would be given his other tables.


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## Pav (Dec 18, 2014)

As someone who delivered pizza for a year, some of the opinions here are...just mind-blowing.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 18, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> And you've failed to provide an example of a service job that underpays you without tips in the US. You've mentioned some retail jobs, but they make minimum wage. I don't solely believe delivery drivers deserve tips because they're underpaid. I belive they deserve tips because they provide a service out of their own pockets to deliver you food because of simple convenience with a side of laziness. I went from "not tipping makes you *seem like* a shitty person" to nothing because that was my entire fvcking point!



I also remember the fed-ex and/or UPS driver being mentioned. They get paid decent money and the trucks aren't their responsibility. Also, fun fact, I occasionally do tip the UPS guy because he ....ing rocks. Given I've only ever given him enough to pick up a coffee or a fast food burger, (around the holidays I'll give him like $20) but my driver is a great guy who is always great with my stuff so I'd feel like shit if I didn't show him my appreciation somehow.

The fact still remains, package delivery drivers get paid good money and aren't responsible for maintenance (and gas?) for their trucks, and they get paid a living wage. That sort of negates the need for tips, even if it is nice to give them.

I also work retail and I don't expect tips. What I'm doing doesn't warrant it. Delivery drivers on the other hand do. It may be part of their job description, but so is getting paid below minimum wage because they're expected to make it up in tips. Tips they won't be getting if you just say ".... them, it's their jobs." Also, if you're not meeting the minimum wage equivillant in tips, there's a good chance the boss will fire you for being so incompetent that he has to pay you with his profits. 

For example, if delivery guy makes the equivalent of $6 an hour after tips, the boss man will have to comp the extra $2 an hour out of the stores profits. (assuming minimum is $8 like here in RI.) If the driver makes the equivalent of $8 or more after tips, then the guy's not really taking any of the profits, as the tips never should have been seen by the business anyway as it's all over what the price required. The boss man could just get fed up with the driver who's costing him the $2 an hour, and fire him for any reason they feel like. (they can make up reasons if they're not in a union.) Like has been said before, delivery drivers rarely do anything that counts as "bad" service. I honestly just consider the tip as just a convenience charge. Even after the tip, the drivers still usually come out with shitty pay.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Even after the tip, the drivers still usually come out with shitty pay.



How is this possible?

According to this thread, you guys are all AWESOME tippers and these drivers all make $15+ an hour if people are like you... DOUBLE minimum wage.


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

Because there are still people like you, Troy. You guys balance it out and keep their jobs refreshingly shitty. Having food brought to your doorstep and not even commending them for serving you because of your inability to go pick up your own fvcking food.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> Because there are still people like you, Troy. You guys balance it out and keep their jobs refreshingly shitty. Having food brought to your doorstep and not even commending them for serving you because of your inability to go pick up your own fvcking food.



You clearly didn't actually read my posts.

I don't skip tipping despite my belief that it is a terrible system. I simply refuse to order delivery because of tipping... (this is at least the third time it's been stated)


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## BuckarooBanzai (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> I actively avoid ANY service for which tipping is "mandatory"



So why is everybody shitting their pants exactly?  Troy says that he doesn't tip when he orders delivery but that he doesn't order delivery, ergo he doesn't have to not tip and it's a non-issue. Are people getting upset at him for committing a thoughtcrime or are they just that bad at reading? Or did I miss something?



Grand Moff Tim said:


> Being anti-tipping and avoiding situations that involve tipping: No problem.



...apparently not. Hats off to you sir 

I might also add that the great state of Maryland requires employers to make up the difference if the addition of tips do not equal minimum wage. I might also add that cash tips that do exceed this threshold (which is the simple majority of the time - I know many delivery drivers) have to, in theory, be claimed on your taxes but oftentimes aren't, making them tax-free income. I also know that there are plenty of other foodservice employment opportunities for those working in pizza delivery jobs. But that's just my $.02, having spent more than my fair share of time washing dishes for $4/hour under the table during middle school.

Not really sure what my point is since I tip reasonably (20% rounded up to nearest dollar) when the pizza comes in a reasonable time, but I don't feel obligated to do so when dude shows up 90 minutes later strung out with bloodshot eyes and a cold pie. That's his fault and his problem that he gets the change in my pocket on a $14 order.


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## asher (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> You clearly didn't actually read my posts.
> 
> I don't skip tipping despite my belief that it is a terrible system. I simply refuse to order delivery because of tipping... (this is at least the third time it's been stated)



Well you went from saying you never order out in one post, to ordering pizza 2-3 times a week in the next. If that second part was a hypothetical, you missed that tag.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

asher said:


> Well you went from saying you never order out in one post, to ordering pizza 2-3 times a week in the next. If that second part was a hypothetical, you missed that tag.



One can order food without it being delivered. Takeout is your friend. 

Save 20%, order takeout


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## tedtan (Dec 19, 2014)

ZeroTolerance94 said:


> If anybody is wondering... I tipped the kid $5.



I ordered a ($14) pizza last night and tipped $5, too (on top of $2.50 delivery charge that may or may not be split with the driver).


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## tripguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

I dont know what it's like now but when i delivered pizza in high school (10 or 11 years ago maybe? damn im getting old.) i made WAY above minimum wage. my hourly rate was less than minimum wage, but after tips i usually ended up making $20 an hour or more. no joke.

granted i was only working 5-10 which was prime pizza time. Working the lunch shift usually resulted in half the pay, unless i did one of those "let me get 12 pizzas for the office" deliveries. those were always awesome.

regardless of whether its required or not its nice to help out. karma.


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## tedtan (Dec 19, 2014)

Watty said:


> I still tip, I just think it's complete bullshit.



I agree that the costs of proper wages should be included in the cost of the pizza.




troyguitar said:


> How is this possible?
> 
> According to this thread, you guys are all AWESOME tippers and these drivers all make $15+ an hour if people are like you... DOUBLE minimum wage.



Even if he makes $15 and hour, he's spending $5/hour on gas, has to pay wear and tear, general maintenance and any damages or tickets incurred out of his pocket, and any portion of the car payment (if it's not paid off) that would be allotted to the time spent delivering pizzas, so that's pushing $10/hour in out of pocket expenses a delivery driver incurs. So in context, $15 doesn't look so good.




troyguitar said:


> Looked at yet another way: I order pizza 2-3 times a week because it's cheaper than any other dinner option including making food at home. If I have to pay 20% more, it's no longer cheap and I stop ordering...
> 
> Would you rather have 3 orders with no tips or zero orders?





troyguitar said:


> One can order food without it being delivered. Takeout is your friend.
> 
> Save 20%, order takeout



More power to you if you pick it up yourself. But when you stated that you ordered 2-3 pizzas/week, you did so implying that it somehow benefits the delivery driver. While it may benefit the shop (hence why they offer it as an option), it doesn't do anything to benefit the driver.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

Someone didn't read the very first post I made, where someone is apparently almost everyone 

emphasis added:



troyguitar said:


> zero
> 
> I pick it up because I'm way too ....ing cheap to spend that much extra money on a damn pizza.
> 
> $5 extra is enough to buy another whole pizza, hot n' ready style.


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## tedtan (Dec 19, 2014)

And someone failed to read my post where I stated "more power to you if you pick it up yourself" after quoting you saying that you do takeout.

If you're going to accuse someone of not reading your post, at least have read their post correctly first.


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

Edit:


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## Xaios (Dec 19, 2014)

Of all the divisive threads that SSO has endured, I wouldn't have expected this issue to be as contentious as it is.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> How is this possible?
> 
> According to this thread, you guys are all AWESOME tippers and these drivers all make $15+ an hour if people are like you... DOUBLE minimum wage.



I get near minimum wage, but I also don't piss through gas and cars doing it. (I maybe spend $20 a week.) Even if in the end they made more than me, which is entirely possible they do, they have more expenses because of their jobs. Go ahead and drive your car around for 5-8 hours a day, stop and go, 5 days a week. See how much it costs you for gas. If your car is new, watch how fast it falls apart. If it's already a junker, have fun spending that money on parts trying to keep it going.

If he does an outright shit job, then don't tip him, but because of the way laws/everything works in this country you're nothing more than a moral piece of shit if you refuse to give the guy a tip for bringing you food. 

If someone thinks it's not such a big deal to drive the food from A to B and doesn't deserve compensation, then do it yourself. You won't get paid to do it, and nobody will expect you to so it's a win win.

edit: I use the words "you" and "your" very loosely here. I know you've stated you don't order delivery personally, but there are people who order and don't tip. "you" and "your" is very general in my posts, where the context demands it.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> you're nothing more than a moral piece of shit if you refuse to give the guy a tip for bringing you food.



Strong words... those are the reason for my continued participation in this thread.

What makes you a moral authority?


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> Strong words... those are the reason for my continued participation in this thread.
> 
> What makes you a moral authority?



What makes anything morally right or wrong? One could use the "what makes you a moral authority" when it comes to everything, including the obvious extremes.

I can make someone who's made my day a little easier just a bit better with only the mildest inconvenience towards myself. (sort of balances itself out considering you didn't go out to get the food yourself.) If you can't see why that's a morally good thing to do, then there's not much that needs said.

To put it in layman's terms: You are presented with the choice of helping someone out. Do you help them, or do you not? Providing the pizza guy wasn't a dick, why would anyone choose NOT to help them, other than ".... that, the extra $5 is an inconvenience to me?"


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

Doing one "not good" thing makes someone a piece of shit?

Have you ever done anything wrong?


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 19, 2014)

Certainly wouldn't make someone the biggest piece of shit, but if they purposefully do it consistently, they are in fact to some degree a piece of shit. I'm sure I do stuff that pisses people off, but I try my best to be a good person. If someone points out that something I'm doing is shitty, I do my best to correct the behavior.

So no, I'm not perfect. Doesn't change the fact that deliberately not tipping is shitty behavior, so please stop creating false arguments and stop ignoring the many valid points in favor of chasing a few simple missteps and exaggerations. 

I'm done arguing the point though, so feel free to keep on ignoring the actual points for the soul purpose of just pointless arguments. I won't be back in this thread.


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## Watty (Dec 19, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> This entire thread isn't helping anything. My entire position is structured around the idea that delivery drivers who are underpaid and doing their job correctly deserve a small tip. They service people personally by bringing them food that they *could otherwise go pick up themselves. *The tip isn't for the service, it's for the convenience of not having to get up off your ass to get your own food, they'll walk it straight to your door or even to your table so you don't even have to carry the fvcking thing. The tip is for the compensation they *don't* get for using their own resources to bring you your own damned food. You can argue all day long that businesses *could* raise their wages or pay them for gas or service their vehicles, but they don't. You have to realize that the people that have those jobs more than likely have shitty cars that get shit mileage, and they have to drive around the city ALL DAY, every day. Most of their tips more than likely go in their gas tanks so they can continue to get paid.



But again, if the delivery drivers are underpaid, why is it my responsibility to make up the difference? The only argument on offer from your side is that tipping is a social convention that has utility from the perspective of the driver (who gets paid a "fair" wage) and their boss (who gets to pay his employees less than a "fair" wage). It's a great argument, but when you refuse to acknowledge that it has to be either all or none (i.e. carry into every industry or none at all), it completely falls apart.

And can we quit bringing the vehicle wear and tear into the conversation as supporting evidence in general? It applies only to delivery drivers, not tipping as a whole. Your waiter (i.e. the bulk of where tipping is an issue) does not drive a car to your table to bring your food.



Chokey Chicken said:


> If he does an outright shit job, then don't tip him, but because of the way laws/everything works in this country you're nothing more than a moral piece of shit if you refuse to give the guy a tip for bringing you food.



Yep, I'm a moral piece of shit (nonsensical by the way), for not giving someone a secondhand raise for doing the job they were hired (read: they accepted willingly) to do. He's a delivery driver for crying out loud, it is literally his job to bring you food. He's not doing anything more special than anyone else with a job is doing. And as far as expenses go, there are people that spend hundreds of dollars a month on transportation to get to work and park there in order to do the jobs they were hired to do. Should we make sure they all get tipped because of the money they have to spend in order to get to work and do their jobs too?! 



Chokey Chicken said:


> If someone thinks it's not such a big deal to drive the food from A to B and doesn't deserve compensation, then do it yourself. You won't get paid to do it, and nobody will expect you to so it's a win win.



Explain to me how him being PAID FOR DOING HIS JOB is not compensation. I can't even understand how you could type that and think it would fly.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

Watty said:


> Your waiter (i.e. the bulk of where tipping is an issue) does not drive a car to your table to bring your food.



I would tip a waiter who did that.


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## Watty (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> I would tip a waiter who did that.



Funny, I was going to say the same thing!!!


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

Watty said:


> And can we quit bringing the vehicle wear and tear into the conversation as supporting evidence in general? It applies only to delivery drivers, not tipping as a whole. Your waiter (i.e. the bulk of where tipping is an issue) does not drive a car to your table to bring your food.



You should read the title of the thread. This isn't about waiters or waitresses. The topic is actually pretty specific. Waiters don't spend their own cash in gas and upkeep for driving their car to bring people food all day long, they walk across a dining area to bring you food. That's comparing apples to oranges. This thread was never about tipping as a whole.


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## JSanta (Dec 19, 2014)

I'll say this and nothing more: Because I am in a financial position to help someone, I do. More recently I've had middle aged men with a minivan that have been my delivery drivers, and in my mind it's quite possible they are down on their luck. It's very little for me to tip $10 on a pizza, so why shouldn't I? 
This pertains specifically to my own moral compass. I do not nor will I pass judgement on someone for doing anything differently and in the same breathe I am not in an ethical position to do so either. I'm not even going to pretend it doesn't make me feel good for giving a decent tip, because it does.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 19, 2014)

Holy shit, who let all the straw men in?

As a final point, I'd like to mention that tips are part of that job description they accepted also. 

Like I said, I'm done arguing over something so stupid, particularly since it's gone so far off topic.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> You should read the title of the thread. This isn't about waiters or waitresses. The topic is actually pretty specific. Waiters don't spend their own cash in gas and upkeep for driving their car to bring people food all day long, they walk across a dining area to bring you food. That's comparing apples to oranges. This thread was never about tipping as a whole.



So you don't tip waiters?


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Holy shit, who let all the straw men in?
> 
> As a final point, I'd like to mention that tips are part of that job description they accepted also.
> 
> Like I said, I'm done arguing over something so stupid, particularly since it's gone so far off topic.



If it wasn't clear, I take major issue not with you guys disagreeing over the relative merits of tipping but your ridiculous judgments of human beings.

If all it takes is one instance of not tipping a person who is "supposed" to be tipped to completely invalidate everything a human being has done in his/her lifetime and make them a total piece of shit, then what do you think of people who do things that are actually deceptive or malicious on a regular basis?

You've got some awfully high standards.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 19, 2014)

I already said it was an intentional exaggeration on my part, though I was possibly unclear. You're not the scum of the earth if you don't tip, but it does say a lot about someone if they religiously don't tip. Until the system is fixed, it's best to help those negatively effected by the broken system. Businesses won't go out of their way to pay more so the laws need to change, and if I recall they may be changing soon. Until then, be kind and tip your driver or get your own damn food.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 19, 2014)

tripguitar said:


> I dont know what it's like now but when i delivered pizza in high school (10 or 11 years ago maybe? damn im getting old.) i made WAY above minimum wage. my hourly rate was less than minimum wage, but after tips i usually ended up making $20 an hour or more. no joke.



Which raises an interesting point: If there _is_ a law that states all workers, regardless of occupation, must receive minimum wage and as a result people stop tipping them, would they be taking a paycut? Gotta wonder what the workers themselves would prefer: A system where some shifts they make less than minimum wage but on others they make $20+ an hour, or one where they always make minimum wage and no more.


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## Hollowway (Dec 19, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Until the system is fixed, it's best to help those negatively effected by the broken system.



I agree with a lot of what you've said previously, but not this. In my opinion this is the WORST thing you can do when you want something to change. Those who benefit from having the system stay the way it is depend on others to keep those who don't from rising up. Not tipping per se, but everything. If everyone who felt that tipping wasn't right stopped tipping the status quo would change pretty quickly. The problem is most of us aren't willing to stand by and watch others suffer. - which is a good thing, but doesn't motivate change. (Again, talking about this sort of thing in general, not tipping.) I always try to "vote with my feet" whenever possible, but sometimes it's hard.


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## possumkiller (Dec 19, 2014)

Idk I always thought minimum wage was just that. The minimum wage an employer can legally pay an employee. People fought hard for that shit. 

What a lot of people can't seem to get into their mind is that tips are not meant to be part of someone's income. They are meant to be a reward for above standard service. If a person delivers my pizza crazy late and cold they are definitely not getting a tip. If I don't see my waitress for half an hour she doesn't get a tip. 

People are paid a wage to do their job. They aren't tipped for doing their job. People get tipped for doing their job better than others. People who tip because they think it is society's job to make up the rest of the delivery driver's wages are just perpetuating the problem of people working for less than minimum wage. Which is supposed to be illegal in the first place isn't it?

The delivery driver doesn't make the pizza. Do you tell your delivery driver to share the tip with the person who made your pizza? If you don't you are a immoral sub-human piece of shit.

Edit: Speaking of other service areas, how often do you tip police officers or teachers? Do you tip war veterans? What about doctors? Do you put a tip in the snack machine for delivering food when you are too much of a lazy shitbag to cook?


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> So you don't tip waiters?



I'm beginning to think you're just replying to me in attempt to start an off-topic argument.

Where in the name of Odin's asshole did you see me say I didn't tip waiters? How did you even get that impression from my reply?

Saying the topic has nothing to do with waiters =/= I don't tip waiters.


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

possumkiller said:


> Idk I always thought minimum wage was just that. The minimum wage an employer can legally pay an employee. People fought hard for that shit.
> 
> What a lot of people can't seem to get into their mind is that tips are not meant to be part of someone's income. They are meant to be a reward for above standard service. If a person delivers my pizza crazy late and cold they are definitely not getting a tip. If I don't see my waitress for half an hour she doesn't get a tip.
> 
> ...



This reply is just rife with b/s. 

Delivery drivers get tips because they make less per hour than minimum wage and have to use their OWN resources to get their job done, not the resources of the business they work for. The guy who made the pizza didn't bring it to your doorstep, and the guy who made the pizza gets paid minimum wage. Teachers, military, cops, doctors, they all make minimum wage or above and use resources of the business they work for, not their own (aside from teachers who pay for school supplies for kids whose families don't have money to pay for their own).

The snack machine example? Are you serious? Do you have a fvcking snack machine in your kitchen? I'm walking by the cafeteria at my job, see a snack machine, "oh, no, I don't want to tip, better go home and brew myself a coke". Really?


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## possumkiller (Dec 19, 2014)

Do you tip independent truck drivers? They use their own equipment and pay for their fuel and maintenance. 

You are just ripe with b/s.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> I'm beginning to think you're just replying to me in attempt to start an off-topic argument.
> 
> Where in the name of Odin's asshole did you see me say I didn't tip waiters? How did you even get that impression from my reply?
> 
> Saying the topic has nothing to do with waiters =/= I don't tip waiters.



Just curious what your tip procedure is for other areas, if I make a new thread about general tipping will you answer?

God forbid you talk about a related topic within a thread in the OFF-TOPIC section


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

possumkiller said:


> Do you tip independent truck drivers? They use their own equipment and pay for their fuel and maintenance.
> 
> You are just ripe with b/s.



They don't deliver their cargo directly to my house, and they get paid more than minimum wage (WAY more) if they use their own vehicles to haul cargo for other businesses. If they delivered shit to me, of course I'd tip them.

Way to not make a point.



troyguitar said:


> Just curious what your tip procedure is for other areas, if I make a new thread about general tipping will you answer?
> 
> God forbid you talk about a related topic within a thread in the OFF-TOPIC section



I wasn't scolding you because I didn't want to reply to your question, I did it because what you asked had nothing to do with the post you quoted.

I tip anyone who does a service directly to me. Anyone.

Edit: And if you did create that topic, I would reply!


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 19, 2014)

It'd probably make more sense to just ask a mod to retitle this to reflect what it has become: The Tipping Thread, or something like that. I thought it had pretty obviously moved past _just_ pizza delivery drivers, because conversations evolve, but apparently not.


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## possumkiller (Dec 19, 2014)

"During these arguments Mostovskoy felt like a man fighting off a jellyfish with a knife. The thrusts​ of his logic were powerless."


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 19, 2014)

To feed the straw man a bit, waiters/waitresses have tons more room for error and thus are more likely to screw up what I'll give for a tip. You're in contact with them for longer so you have more opportunity for them to be shitty. 

A pizza guy uses his resources to bring lazy people food. So long as he's polite and reasonably timely, there's very little reason to penalize him.


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

Nice Life & Fate quote. Very large font totally got your point across.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> I wasn't scolding you because I didn't want to reply to your question, I did it because what you asked had nothing to do with the post you quoted.
> 
> I tip anyone who does a service directly to me. Anyone.
> 
> Edit: And if you did create that topic, I would reply!



FWIW the rationale was:

You saw fit to point out that waiters don't spend their own money to serve you and that this thread is not about tipping as a whole - implying that your opinions on tipping as a whole are different than your opinions on tipping delivery drivers in particular (otherwise why make the distinction?) and that waiters in particular deserve less in tips than drivers (because they don't spend their own money).

The follow up question is obviously:

If you tip everyone who does a service directly for you whether or not they spend their own money on doing their job, what relevance does the driver spending his/her own money on a car/gas have? You would tip them even if they drove a Pizza Hut company truck, no?


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> FWIW the rationale was:
> 
> You saw fit to point out that waiters don't spend their own money to serve you and that this thread is not about tipping as a whole - implying that your opinions on tipping as a whole are different than your opinions on tipping delivery drivers in particular (otherwise why make the distinction?) and that waiters in particular deserve less in tips than drivers (because they don't spend their own money).



Waiters are an entirely different scenario. They serve you for your entire meal, get you refills, ask you if you want anything else, over the course of a whole meal. They also usually get tipped (by me, at least) in higher amounts than delivery drivers get tipped (by me) based on how much work they do. I don't tip delivery drivers because of their demeanor and whether or not they care about me enough to smile and ask how I'm doing. I tip delivery drivers because they just brought me food that I could have otherwise gone and picked up myself, thus using my own resources to get my own food.



troyguitar said:


> The follow up question is obviously:
> 
> If you tip everyone who does a service directly for you whether or not they spend their own money on doing their job, what relevance does the driver spending his/her own money on a car/gas have? You would tip them even if they drove a Pizza Hut company truck, no?



Because I tip different services different amounts based on the work put in to it. If I tip a delivery driver $5, that's money he has for gas, I don't need to tip him more, unless he delivered my pizza and then continued to serve it to me. I tip a waiter or waitress more because of the work they put in to serving me. I tip a delivery driver because he just wasted his own gas in his own car to bring me food. Two completely different scenarios.

Edit: Let's put it this way. If I was feeling lazy and called my best friend and asked them to pick me up a pizza and bring it to me, if they did I'd pay them money for the gas they used bringing me food and for the pizza itself (and maybe some pizza for them). Why wouldn't I for a pizza delivery driver? Because it's his job? That's not a good reason. "His job" doesn't pay for gas he uses while bringing my lazy ass some food.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

All of this thought and judgment into buying food. Way too complicated. I just want to ....ing eat, not analyze people. 

but fair enough I guess, you have an answer for everything.

I'm a shitty person for believing in clear prices and consistent wages, so sue me.

edit: had to bring this back one more time



loqtrall said:


> I tip anyone who does a service directly to me. Anyone.



You tip your mailman, UPS driver, doctor, police officers, firemen, etc.?


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

For some reason you and Watty seem to be treating ALL tipping as a collective thing. You can't do that. People get tipped for different reasons. Saying "You should get tipped on how well you provide service" doesn't work for every service job that allows tipping. A waiter or waitress serves you for an entire meal. There's many different parameters that determine how well their tip should be. A pizza delivery driver just brings you pizza, he doesn't wait on you, their tip is obligatory because they just spent their own money bringing you food that their employer will not pay them back for.


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> All of this thought and judgment into buying food. Way too complicated. I just want to ....ing eat, not analyze people.
> 
> but fair enough I guess, you have an answer for everything.



I feel you on that one.



troyguitar said:


> I'm a shitty person for believing in clear prices and consistent wages, so sue me.
> 
> edit: had to bring this back one more time
> 
> ...



All of those professions make at or above minimum wage no matter what. But you'd be surprised how many times I've attempted to tip Fed Ex or UPS drivers and my mailman for bringing a package up my driveway, which they can't accept.


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## troyguitar (Dec 19, 2014)

All tipping as an obligatory part of a transaction is a collective thing IMO. It's a collective thing that should not exist. Perpetuating the line of thinking that XYZ service deserve tips because they're underpaid simply ensures that they are underpaid. If you people would stop worrying about how you look in front of your friends and took action (i.e. stopped tipping) then things could actually change.

Non-obligatory tipping is what should be left after that and should be the only thing we ever have to concern ourselves with - it's quite simple.

...instead big business has you guys so brainwashed that you believe it is your moral imperative not only to pay their employees for them but to guilt and shame your peers into keeping this whole thing going.

YOU are the pieces of shit.


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## loqtrall (Dec 19, 2014)

Brainwashed? I tip because a guy I don't even know just brought me food using his own money. I'd do it for family, I'd do it for a friend. I don't do it because their job description tells me to. If they got paid regular wages they'd more than likely have to refuse tips. Not tipping them does nothing but give them the shaft. It's been said in this thread before. Do you know what not tipping them will cause? Their bosses to fire them because they have to compensate for their paychecks out of store profits because they're unable to get tips, indicating that they give bad service.

The idea that simply not tipping service workers will solve their situation of being underpaid is ludicrous. There may be a way to fix it, but that's definitely not it. That would take reforms, rewriting contracts, changing business operations protocols, maybe even court rulings. Not tipping just causes the person who doesn't get tips to get shafted by their employer and as well as the person they're serving.


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## Hollowway (Dec 20, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> The idea that simply not tipping service workers will solve their situation of being underpaid is ludicrous.



Actually, I think that would be the easiest way to get them paid more. It's draconian, but it's the same reason people do sit-ins, marches, riots, hunger strikes, hold hostages, blackmail, sanction, strike, etc. Causing pain, or the threat of pain, is often the only leverage people have against those in power. 

I'm not necessarily condoning it from my own viewpoint, but if I were staunchly against the idea of tipping waiters I would simply stop tipping waiters, and recommend to everyone I knew to do the same. My doing so wouldn't change anything, but if LOTS of people did it, then things would change. And everyone has to believe that their actions can effect change, otherwise together we do nothing.

EDIT: Also, I've never even HEARD of that Life and Fate book, but I just Googled it, and it sounds like I should check it out. How am I so ignorant I didn't know?!


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## asher (Dec 20, 2014)

Of course, good luck getting enough people to do that, where you're not simply boning every single employee, which is why it'd be better to attack it from a legal angle IMO (organize and bug reps/City people/Congresscritters/etc)


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## Joose (Dec 20, 2014)

Tipping is not obligatory; but it's a dick move not to, unless the driver personally ....ed up your order.

/Thread


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## technomancer (Dec 20, 2014)

I didn't read the rest of the thread but saw this and thought I should fill in some details about the situation that ZEBOV conveniently didn't mention. The reason he is perma'd is that he went off on an anti-semitic rant that was in no way appropriate for this forum regardless of WHO it was directed at. I'll leave the explicit quotes out but IIRC saying somebody should be murdered because they're a "f*cking Jew" will get you perma'd.

It is amazing how many guys get perma'd from this place for crazy shit like that then "didn't do anything" when asked about it later.

Back to discussing tipping.



Joose said:


> For those missing ZEBOV, I sent him a screenshot from this thread.
> 
> Response:
> "Actually, I've taken most of the world's natural psychedelics since then, and they've helped me let go of a lot of anger. Also, it wasn't my second delivery. It was somewhere between the 5th and 10th deliveries.
> ...


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

Giving someone extra money for going above and beyond = Tip

Giving someone extra money for just doing their job because you take pity on a person who applied for a job that pays less than minimum wage and requires them to use their own resources to do said job = Charity

The fact that you people are ignoring is that it still is not the responsibility of society to make up for wages that an employee is supposed to be paid by a company. If you want to donate to the pizza delivery driver charity that is your deal. Just don't think you have any kind of right to try and bully other people into doing so.


I used to install dishes for DirecTV. Used my own vehicle. Paid for gas. Had to split the income with the boss and another driver. Never got tipped. Instead of begging people to make up for my losses, I got a different job.


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

troyguitar said:


> edit: had to bring this back one more time
> 
> 
> 
> You tip your mailman, UPS driver, doctor, police officers, firemen, etc.?



Don't forget about all the guys who died in foreign countries so that this kid can practise for debate class in here. He said those other services don't count. They make more than minimum wage and don't use their own resources so society isn't required to pay them a tip. Pizza delivery drivers are the only people on earth that are required to be paid mandatory tips.


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## loqtrall (Dec 20, 2014)

How much of a snide individual do you have to be when you don't agree with someone's opinion? You haven't made any solid points in any of your posts and now you're trying to put words in my mouth (I think pizza delivery drivers are the only service job worthy of tips? Really? Maybe you should actually read some of my posts). Being derogatory isn't helping you at all in this.

Those other services don't "count". Tips are in pizza drivers' fvcking job description. So are below minimum wages. All the other professions you and troy named make at or above minimum wage and are usually required to REFUSE tips. Do you not get that? Can you try to tip them if you want to? Sure, but they more than likely won't take it.

As I said before, on more than one instance I've tried to tip UPS and Fed Ex drivers for keeping my package in one piece, but they refused it. They're not allowed to take tips. Pizza delivery drivers *are* allowed to take tips because they use their own shit to do their job and they don't get compensated for doing so by their employer. Has that not gotten through to you yet?


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## loqtrall (Dec 20, 2014)

possumkiller said:


> Giving someone extra money for going above and beyond = Tip
> 
> Giving someone extra money for just doing their job because you take pity on a person who applied for a job that pays less than minimum wage and requires them to use their own resources to do said job = Charity
> 
> ...



Giving someone who can accept tips money for doing their job correctly = Tips. End of story.

Nobody is saying that society has to make up for them not making minimum wage. It's been said a dozen fvcking times that the tip is for convenience, not the service itself. The convenience of you not having to get off your lazy ass to get yourself food. That's worth a *small* tip. Nobody has a right to bully anyone in to anything, but we do have a right to say that not tipping a delivery driver makes you seem like a moral piece of shit.

Did you get paid minimum wage or more for that DirecTV job? I know for a fact that DirecTV Installation Technicians *are* allowed to accept tips, as my friend got DirecTV installed in his home and specifically asked the guys "are you allowed to accept tips" and one replied "Yeah, but I don't usually take them, the job is easy", and the other took the tip. I was there and heard it with my own two ears. Sorry you never got tipped. But I can't find a cable or satellite installation technician position for any cable company that doesn't make above minimum wage to do the job.


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

Delivery is a service provided by the company. A driver is only doing the job he was hired to do. The driver is doing NOTHING MORE THAN THE JOB HE/SHE WAS HIRED TO DO. When you pay the delivery fee you are paying for someone to bring it to you so that you don't have to get off your fat lazy ass and get it yourself. 

When you try to use peer pressure to bully others into giving away their hard-earned money, it makes you seem like a moral piece of shit.


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## loqtrall (Dec 20, 2014)

But the company doesn't provide it's own vehicles for delivery drivers, something DirecTV, UPS, Fed Ex, USPS, Garbage Service, etc. do provide. And businesses that DO provide their own vehicles usually pay employees MORE than minimum wage for using their own vehicles instead. The delivery fee is tacked on because instead of walking a pizza across a dining room, they have to pay someone to take it to you and want to make money off of it. The delivery driver doesn't get that delivery fee, and they still have to use their own resources to bring you food. That's the *sole* reason they deserve tips. If the pizza place provided their own vehicle, paid for gas or anything that happens to the vehicle, delivery drivers wouldn't be warranted tips. But they don't, and delivery drivers are still forced to use their own vehicle and their own money in gas to bring you food. That's pretty much the only service job that completely requires you to use your own vehicle and gas and only your own vehicle and gas.

That's why they deserve a tip. They're basically paying to bring you food with their own hard-earned cash.

Edit: What it sounds like you're basically saying is, "The pizza was only $15, so that's all I'm paying for it, screw the guy who's spending his own money to bring it to me even though he makes below minimum wage and works a shit job". That mindset makes someone seem more like a moral piece of shit than trying to get someone to help out a person who's spending their own money to serve them.


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

That is the whole point. These jobs are used by those companies to profit from these employees. It is a scam. It isn't my fault these people are conned into a job that not only pays a less than legal wage but requires them to use their own resources and spend their own money.

You still don't seem to grasp the fact that tips are not wages. Tips are a reward for doing your job better than average. If tips were mandatory and expected, they would no longer be tips.


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## loqtrall (Dec 20, 2014)

I don't know how many times I have to say that pizza delivery drivers deserve tips because of the convenience and not for doing their job before you actually decide to read it.Tipping is not a requirement. You're not forced to do it. This argument has nothing to do with their wages, and everything to do with tipping them because they just spent their own money to bring you food because you're too lazy to go pick it up yourself.

Is it really that hard of a concept to grasp? You keep repeating "It's not my job to compensate their wages" when that's not the argument in the slightest. Have you still not realized that I'm arguing you should tip drivers because of what they do FOR YOU PERSONALLY, not because they get paid below minimum wage? Because it doesn't seem like you have.

You and Troy keep bringing up wages and it's getting annoying because we're not arguing about wages, we're arguing about why delivery drivers deserve a small tip for bringing you food that you could otherwise go get yourself.


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## loqtrall (Dec 20, 2014)

I'm gonna leave this argument with this, because I know I'll never get through to either you or Troy.

You're arguing that pizza delivery drivers' work is so insignificant that they're not even deserving of a $3-5 tip (average), even though they spend their own money bringing you food on account of laziness. Their work completely benefits you and has no negatives, yet they don't deserve a tip for it.

You argue that it's not our responsibility to make up for their wages with our hard-earned money. Three dollars? Seriously? Average minimum wage is $8 an hour, it'd take you less than 30 minutes to make $3. I barely start working at my job before I make $3 off of it. Hard-earned money? It's three dollars. Most of what's in my fridge costs more than that. But that's too much to tip? Why? Because them using their own gas to bring you food is undeserving?

Bottom line: More members than just me say not tipping someone who uses their own resources to bring you food that you could otherwise pick up yourself makes you look like a moral piece of shit. That's the popular opinion in this thread, "tipping is a necessary evil". Only you and Troy seem to be adamantly against tipping, like it will break your bank account and overpay the guy who just served you out of his own pocket. In my eyes, that's a shitty thing to do. If I didn't tip a pizza guy, I'd feel like a shitty person. Not because "society tells me I have to", but because it's the right thing to do for someone who just used their own money to bring you something to eat.

End of story.


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

The driver is not personally doing something just for you out of the kindness in his/her heart. The driver does the job that they were hired for. When you pay the delivery charge you are paying for the delivery service. How hard is this for you to comprehend? When you pay a tip to the driver, generally it is because they got there earlier than expected.

You pay five bucks for a gallon of milk at a convenience store because of convenience. You pay the pizza delivery charge because of convenience. 

Why don't you tip the cook? I'm sure he doesn't drive a company car. He drives his own car to work and pays for his own gas and maintenance. He cooked that pizza just especially for you so you wouldn't have to tear yourself away from this thread long enough to cook one yourself.

You paid for the convenience of the pizza in the price of the pizza.


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

I never said I don't tip. 

You just have the most idiotic reasons for tipping.


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> I'm gonna leave this argument with this, because I know I'll never get through to either you or Troy.
> 
> You're arguing that pizza delivery drivers' work is so insignificant that they're not even deserving of a $3-5 tip (average), even though they spend their own money bringing you food on account of laziness. Their work completely benefits you and has no negatives, yet they don't deserve a tip for it.
> 
> ...


 
It isn't that we don't read what you are saying or that we don't get it. I do and I see where you are coming from. It's just that what you are saying is so stupid.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (Dec 20, 2014)

Well I've been browsing this thread for a few days. As an ex pizza delivery driver I've gotta honestly say I'm pretty surprised at some of the Steve Buscemi Reservoir Dogs type comments. That was the joke in the movie, if you don't tip you're a dick. Even the criminals tipped, get it? If you don't tip you are a cheap ....er. And all these arguments about how pizza delivery drivers don't deserve it, it's part of their job, etc. that's all a bunch of bullshit. If you made as much as the UPS guy, or the postman, etc, I could see not tipping. But you don't. Pizza delivery drivers often make minimum wage (or less) because they depend on tips. Not for going above and beyond, just for showing up. Drivers rarely if ever see any of the delivery charge. When I was working it was $2.50 and I'd get 75 cents out of that. I live in northern Michigan, and I would do approximately 20 to 30 deliveries a night. Within three months I had put 20,000 miles on the car I just bought. Every delivery was with my own car and paid for out of my own pocket. 75 cents does not cover gas, oil, tires, if your car breaks down, etc. Basically if you don't tip it's costing the delivery driver out of pocket money to bring you your pizza 9 times out of 10. Believe me, when you don't tip the pizza guy takes it personal and he is quite pissed. I promise. Now I'm sure a lot of you are going to say that people don't have to work those jobs if they don't want to. Well, no you don't. I quit my job after that three months experience. Got pretty old speeding to get people their food on time and still having them bitch. Got my only speeding ticket doing that job as well. That's something else to consider. A lot of these places have time limits on how long it can take for you to get your pizza. So the driver has to speed in order to be able to make it on time, regardless of factors of like traffic or weather. There is a lot more going on here than some of you are thinking about it seems. Basically, if a 15 percent tip is going to break you, then either 1. Pick it up yourself or 2. Don't order pizza. Not tipping for any other reason is because you are an asshole. End of story.


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## Joose (Dec 20, 2014)

Honestly, how is this even still a discussion? I imagine everything that can be said, has been said; for both sides.


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## JoeyW (Dec 20, 2014)

guitar_player4_2_0 said:


> Basically, if a 15 percent tip is going to break you, then either 1. Pick it up yourself or 2. Don't order pizza. Not tipping for any other reason is because you are an @#!*% . End of story.



Except for like, y'know all of the reasons that have been detailed over the last 9 pages or so


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## Watty (Dec 20, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> You should read the title of the thread. This isn't about waiters or waitresses. The topic is actually pretty specific. Waiters don't spend their own cash in gas and upkeep for driving their car to bring people food all day long, they walk across a dining area to bring you food. That's comparing apples to oranges. This thread was never about tipping as a whole.



It was initially about tipping pizza delivery drivers, but as is completely obvious at this point, it's now about tipping as a whole. Not sure why you felt the need to clarify that....completely pointless.



Chokey Chicken said:


> To feed the straw man a bit, waiters/waitresses have tons more room for error and thus are more likely to screw up what I'll give for a tip. You're in contact with them for longer so you have more opportunity for them to be shitty. A pizza guy uses his resources to bring lazy people food. So long as he's polite and reasonably timely, there's very little reason to penalize him.



You're inherently acknowledging here that a tip is dependent upon performance and not upon whether a job was completed at all. And a pizza delivery guy could have been shitty with his attitude when you answer the door, would you then tip him less? If so, your argument about all the wear and tear on the vehicle and such falls apart because you're allowing an "external" factor to dictate the amount of the tip.



loqtrall said:


> For some reason you and Watty seem to be treating ALL tipping as a collective thing. You can't do that. People get tipped for different reasons. Saying "You should get tipped on how well you provide service" doesn't work for every service job that allows tipping. A waiter or waitress serves you for an entire meal. There's many different parameters that determine how well their tip should be. A pizza delivery driver just brings you pizza, he doesn't wait on you, their tip is obligatory because they just spent their own money bringing you food that their employer will not pay them back for.



Paying someone more than the wage for the job that they accepted is a universal aspect of the service industry, therefore we CAN treat it as a collective thing. I get why you think delivery drivers are exempt, but your arguments earlier in the thread have not helped you in any way to make a good justification for that train of thought. And no, their tip is NOT OBLIGATORY. It is NOT my responsibility to pay them to make up for the fact that they used their own car to do their job. 

I used to have a job that was 50 miles one way from where I lived. I spent in excess of $10 in gas to get there and back every day, not to mention having to pay a $4.50 toll to get across a bridge. I put 500 miles on my car every week and a lot of it was stop and go as well in traffic. Now, should I be paid more by either the company I work for or by the people my job benefitted? No. I took the job knowing that the wear, gas, and toll were my responsibility to take care of by virtue of me having accepted the job. I realize that I was being paid more than your typical delivery driver, but the argument about vehicular wear and gas is a bullshit one because it was made clear up front.



loqtrall said:


> You're arguing that pizza delivery drivers' work is so insignificant that they're not even deserving of a $3-5 tip (average), even though they spend their own money bringing you food on account of laziness. Their work completely benefits you and has no negatives, yet they don't deserve a tip for it.



No, we're arguing that the pizza delivery drivers' work is the result of a job they willingly accepted knowing that they were going to be paid a certain wage and would have to use their car to complete said job. If the manager sees fit to pay them less because he wants to put the onus of the delivery fee on the customer, he's a shitty businessman and the employee should not work for him any longer. It's not about them being deserving of a tip, it's about the fact that they are already being paid to provide that service to the customers....it's literally the only reason they have a job. Is it a shitty job? Yes. But it's not society's responsibility to make sure that everyone who has a shitty job has a better job because of our unspoken rule to give them a raise every time they do their job.



loqtrall said:


> You argue that it's not our responsibility to make up for their wages with our hard-earned money. Three dollars? Seriously? Average minimum wage is $8 an hour, it'd take you less than 30 minutes to make $3. I barely start working at my job before I make $3 off of it. Hard-earned money? It's three dollars. Most of what's in my fridge costs more than that. But that's too much to tip? Why? Because them using their own gas to bring you food is undeserving?



And again, it's not about how easy it is for me to make the money to pay for the tip. I never once used the phrase "hard earned" with respect to the money I would or wouldn't use to tip someone. It doesn't matter if I just won the ....ing lottery, the argument remains the same. It's NOT MY RESPONSIBILITY to make sure that the driver is paid a "fair" wage when his boss won't do so.



loqtrall said:


> Bottom line: More members than just me say not tipping someone who uses their own resources to bring you food that you could otherwise pick up yourself makes you look like a moral piece of shit. That's the popular opinion in this thread, "tipping is a necessary evil". Only you and Troy seem to be adamantly against tipping, like it will break your bank account and overpay the guy who just served you out of his own pocket. In my eyes, that's a shitty thing to do. If I didn't tip a pizza guy, I'd feel like a shitty person. Not because "society tells me I have to", but because it's the right thing to do for someone who just used their own money to bring you something to eat.



If you want to go with that logic, there were a whole lot of people behind Hitler when he said that the Jews needed to be exterminated. I'd hope you wouldn't apply the "lots of people agree with me" mentality after realizing it's a similar justification. And to clarify again:

It won't break my bank account to tip the guy, but it would break the bank to tip everyone who did something for me when it was their job to do so. At the end of the day, you're quibbling over how much delivery drivers get paid in order to provide this service, which is something to be addressed with their boss, not as a customer. To this end, would you still feel the same way if delivery drivers were paid such that they made $15 per hour AFTER paying for gas and a mileage charge for wear and tear? Where is the line over which you feel that they're being paid enough so as not to merit requiring a tip to make up the difference?




guitar_player4_2_0 said:


> Well I've been browsing this thread for a few days. As an ex pizza delivery driver I've gotta honestly say I'm pretty surprised at some of the Steve Buscemi Reservoir Dogs type comments. That was the joke in the movie, if you don't tip you're a dick. Even the criminals tipped, get it? If you don't tip you are a cheap ....er. And all these arguments about how pizza delivery drivers don't deserve it, it's part of their job, etc. that's all a bunch of bullshit. If you made as much as the UPS guy, or the postman, etc, I could see not tipping. But you don't. Pizza delivery drivers often make minimum wage (or less) because they depend on tips. Not for going above and beyond, just for showing up. Drivers rarely if ever see any of the delivery charge. When I was working it was $2.50 and I'd get 75 cents out of that. I live in northern Michigan, and I would do approximately 20 to 30 deliveries a night. Within three months I had put 20,000 miles on the car I just bought. Every delivery was with my own car and paid for out of my own pocket. 75 cents does not cover gas, oil, tires, if your car breaks down, etc. Basically if you don't tip it's costing the delivery driver out of pocket money to bring you your pizza 9 times out of 10. Believe me, when you don't tip the pizza guy takes it personal and he is quite pissed. I promise. Now I'm sure a lot of you are going to say that people don't have to work those jobs if they don't want to. Well, no you don't. I quit my job after that three months experience. Got pretty old speeding to get people their food on time and still having them bitch. Got my only speeding ticket doing that job as well. That's something else to consider. A lot of these places have time limits on how long it can take for you to get your pizza. So the driver has to speed in order to be able to make it on time, regardless of factors of like traffic or weather. There is a lot more going on here than some of you are thinking about it seems. Basically, if a 15 percent tip is going to break you, then either 1. Pick it up yourself or 2. Don't order pizza. Not tipping for any other reason is because you are an asshole. End of story.



I'm sorry that you got absolutely shafted by the company you worked for; the situation you just described is bullshit. But why should I have to pay more for my pizza because your boss is a dick for not paying you a fair wage to drive the pizza to me? It's baffling to me that you can justify not being mad at your company for paying you so little by putting the onus for a fair wage on the customer. 

And a 15% tip is not going to break me, but if the pizza is going to cost 15% more to make sure that all parties involved in the transaction are "happy," why doesn't you boss artificially inflate the cost of the pizza by 15% and give you that money? Ah, right, because that would drive away business...meaning less profit for your boss, meaning less of a need for your job in the first place. It's a vicious circle, but one where the company you work for is on the hook.

_____________________________________________________________

tl;dr - If you want more money for doing your job, you talk to your manager, not your customers. It really is that simple.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 20, 2014)

Joose said:


> Honestly, how is this even still a discussion? I imagine everything that can be said, has been said; for both sides.


I have no idea how this thread hasn't been closed yet since it's just been a big circle jerk (mainly between loqtroll and troyguitar, honestly) for the past, oh I don't know, 7 pages?

On the plus side I get to finally use this emoticon and mean it:


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## possumkiller (Dec 20, 2014)

I know lol. 

I just wish these guys were my bosses. I would love to be paid extra just for showing up.

Edit: I know that most of the people on the forum nowadays are teenagers. We were all there once. Trust me, when you grow up and have kids of your own and have to worry about more substantial bills than just getting that set of Juggernauts and rad faux binding tape for your RG8, you will start to care a lot more about how your money is spent and what you get for the money you spend.


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## tedtan (Dec 20, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> Causing pain, or the threat of pain, is often the only leverage people have against those in power.


 
Yes, when that pain or threat of pain is inflicted upon those who need to change their actions. But in this case, failing to tip does not cause any pain on the business owners, only on those who depend on the tips (pizza delivery drivers, waiters, etc.) because if the server doesn't receive tips, the owner/manager will simply replace them with someone who will go out of their way ensure they are tipped.

You have to bring the pain against the parties whose actions need to change in order to achieve change.




troyguitar said:


> instead big business has you guys so brainwashed that you believe it is your moral imperative not only to pay their employees for them but to guilt and shame your peers into keeping this whole thing going.





possumkiller said:


> The fact that you people are ignoring is that it still is not the responsibility of society to make up for wages that an employee is supposed to be paid by a company.



Whether you pay a tip or you pay an increased price for the pizza (to cover the employee's now higher wages), you're still paying for them. The only difference is one is direct and the other is indirect.


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## tedtan (Dec 20, 2014)

Watty said:


> And no, their tip is NOT OBLIGATORY. It is NOT my responsibility to pay them to make up for the fact that they used their own car to do their job...
> 
> I used to have a job that was 50 miles one way from where I lived. I spent in excess of $10 in gas to get there and back every day, not to mention having to pay a $4.50 toll to get across a bridge. I put 500 miles on my car every week and a lot of it was stop and go as well in traffic. Now, should I be paid more by either the company I work for or by the people my job benefitted? No. I took the job knowing that the wear, gas, and toll were my responsibility to take care of by virtue of me having accepted the job.



Don't conflate these ideas - they are not remotely the same.

We all incur expenses getting to and from work, whether they involve our own vehicle or public transportation. The only exceptions are those working from home or living close enough to walk/bike to work in an area where weather allows them to do so. You'll note that the IRS doesn't allow you to write these expenses off because they are not legitimate business expenses.

The pizza delivery driver, however, is using his vehicle IN ORDER TO PERFORM THE WORK ITSELF, therefor it is a legitimate expense as acknowledged by the IRS and pretty much everyone else.




Watty said:


> why doesn't you boss artificially inflate the cost of the pizza by 15% and give you that money? Ah, right, because that would drive away business...meaning less profit for your boss, meaning less of a need for your job in the first place. It's a vicious circle, but one where the company you work for is on the hook.



If you have any business experience at all, you know it doesn't work like that. In order to pay a fair wage to the delivery driver, the company will add 15% to the price of the pizza, and, like every other expense they incur, they'll want to mark it up by at least 35% (an extra 5.25%) so that price increase will ultimately be 20.25%. And since many orders are for a single pizza, that increase will be added per pizza, not per delivery. That will result in some people not ordering pizza at all any longer or, at least ordering fewer pizzas. When this cuts into the store profits they'll raise the price further to find the sweet spot where reduced demand plus increased cost results in a market price that provides the same or higher level of profits than they had with more orders at a lower price point.

And this ultimately results in 1) pizza delivery drivers losing jobs (less demand for pizza); 2) you losing the ability to buy pizza at a relatively low price point; and 3) pizza shop owners making pretty much the same dollar amount in terms of both profits and revenues for providing less pizza.

How does this help anyone beyond the shop owner (increased return on investment) and possibly the shop manager (bonuses (or perhaps profit sharing in larger chains))?


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## Watty (Dec 20, 2014)

tedtan said:


> Don't conflate these ideas - they are not remotely the same.
> 
> We all incur expenses getting to and from work, whether they involve our own vehicle or public transportation. The only exceptions are those working from home or living close enough to walk/bike to work in an area where weather allows them to do so. You'll note that the IRS doesn't allow you to write these expenses off because they are not legitimate business expenses.
> 
> The pizza delivery driver, however, is using his vehicle IN ORDER TO PERFORM THE WORK ITSELF, therefor it is a legitimate expense as acknowledged by the IRS and pretty much everyone else.



I'll admit that the ideas are not exactly equitable, but the overall intent still somewhat applies given that both jobs were accepted contingent upon those costs being involved. And while the delivery driver might use his car for said work, his wage (as has been stated) unfortunately doesn't capture that in a way that makes the two situations completely different. I understand what you're saying, I just think the link between the two scenarios can be made depending on how you look at it.



tedtan said:


> If you have any business experience at all, you know it doesn't work like that. In order to pay a fair wage to the delivery driver, the company will add 15% to the price of the pizza, and, like every other expense they incur, they'll want to mark it up by at least 35% (an extra 5.25%) so that price increase will ultimately be 20.25%. And since many orders are for a single pizza, that increase will be added per pizza, not per delivery. That will result in some people not ordering pizza at all any longer or, at least ordering fewer pizzas. When this cuts into the store profits they'll raise the price further to find the sweet spot where reduced demand plus increased cost results in a market price that provides the same or higher level of profits than they had with more orders at a lower price point.
> 
> And this ultimately results in 1) pizza delivery drivers losing jobs (less demand for pizza); 2) you losing the ability to buy pizza at a relatively low price point; and 3) pizza shop owners making pretty much the same dollar amount in terms of both profits and revenues for providing less pizza.
> 
> How does this help anyone beyond the shop owner (increased return on investment) and possibly the shop manager (bonuses (or perhaps profit sharing in larger chains))?



You just stated exactly what I tried to say, albeit with a more detailed evaluation of the progression of events and the numbers involved...?

And it helps the employee by allowing them to be paid more as you stated in your second sentence quoted above. Not sure why you wouldn't have included him in your final summation at the end of the quoted bit. And if the employee, the manager, and the business are doing well....does it really matter if it's benefitting anyone else? There's no one else that inherently has to benefit so long as business is doing well. Customers don't inherently benefit from a service existing and them using it. That's what the economy is predicated upon in a capitalist system.


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## Hollowway (Dec 20, 2014)

tedtan said:


> Yes, when that pain or threat of pain is inflicted upon those who need to change their actions. But in this case, failing to tip does not cause any pain on the business owners, only on those who depend on the tips (pizza delivery drivers, waiters, etc.) because if the server doesn't receive tips, the owner/manager will simply replace them with someone who will go out of their way ensure they are tipped.



That's a good point. Half of the examples I provided inflict pain on the owners. But sometimes there isn't a way to do that, so you almost have to "martyr" yourself. Kind of like a hunger strike. It brings attention to the issue due to the pain. Or, if enough people do it there won't be a way to hire someone else. I know it's not realistic that we could organize something, but I could see a day where Dominos drivers unionized, or someone organized a mass delivery driver walkout day or something. I just feel like something big like that needs to occur, because otherwise writing a letter to a congressman, or to the owner of a pizza franchise, and demanding higher pay for the drivers is likely to be met with, "well, the system is working fine, and no one is complaining."


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## flint757 (Dec 21, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> Actually, I think that would be the easiest way to get them paid more. It's draconian, but it's the same reason people do sit-ins, marches, riots, hunger strikes, hold hostages, blackmail, sanction, strike, etc. Causing pain, or the threat of pain, is often the only leverage people have against those in power.
> 
> I'm not necessarily condoning it from my own viewpoint, but if I were staunchly against the idea of tipping waiters I would simply stop tipping waiters, and recommend to everyone I knew to do the same. My doing so wouldn't change anything, but if LOTS of people did it, then things would change. And everyone has to believe that their actions can effect change, otherwise together we do nothing.
> 
> EDIT: Also, I've never even HEARD of that Life and Fate book, but I just Googled it, and it sounds like I should check it out. How am I so ignorant I didn't know?!





asher said:


> Of course, good luck getting enough people to do that, where you're not simply boning every single employee, which is why it'd be better to attack it from a legal angle IMO (organize and bug reps/City people/Congresscritters/etc)



Yeah, the only way that not tipping would resolve the problem is if literally everyone did it and good luck with that. The easiest solution, yet still rather difficult, would be to do it through legislation if someone was that motivated.

Personally, I don't mind the system as is even with me 'compensating' their wage. Either way I'd be doing so whether it is through a tip or higher food prices, which would likely lead to more profit for the owner rather than better pay for the employees. I also like the 'pay what you can' model as a whole as well. Sometimes I've only got a couple of bucks to spare and sometimes I can drop a $10. If the food prices were just always leading to my food costing me $10 more I'd probably order less pizza. That said, I don't order pizza that often anyhow. When I do I tip between $3-$5 though.



possumkiller said:


> Don't forget about all the guys who died in foreign countries so that this kid can practise for debate class in here. He said those other services don't count. They make more than minimum wage and don't use their own resources so society isn't required to pay them a tip. Pizza delivery drivers are the only people on earth that are required to be paid mandatory tips.



No offense to those who have served, but color me unconvinced that going to the middle east, south korea, vietnam, etc. has any relevant effect on our day-to-day lives at all. Our security lies in who we let in and out of this country and after 9/11 who/what we allow on planes. We'd be able to practice for debate club all we wanted if the military never went over at all. 

Not going to discount the service they have done as a whole as they are proudly serving our nation, but that doesn't directly link to we'd all be dead or invaded had we not gone overseas to fight a bunch of losing wars.


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## Hollowway (Dec 21, 2014)

Anyone know if there's ever been a movement to get employees to be paid minimum wage irrespective of whether they provide a service at all? I'm wondering if this topic is hotly debated all over the US or not.


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## Pav (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm satisfied with the way things are. The expectation of tips made it quick and easy to discern the compassionate people who deserved prompt service and hot food from the real assholes out there.


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## Watty (Dec 21, 2014)

Pav said:


> I'm satisfied with the way things are. The expectation of tips made it quick and easy to discern the compassionate people who deserved prompt service and hot food from the real assholes out there.



A) I appreciate that you used the word "expectation" to describe tipping. Shows just how thoroughly ingrained in your mind it is, despite there being no good reason for it, let alone the isolated industry argument.

B) Is it really compassionate of people to engage in a social norm? You seem to be forgetting that it's also a possibility that the customer was rude and still left a tip because that's just what people do. Does he automatically get a pass for having been a dick because he left a buck or two on the tab? I'd hope people in the service industry would say that a few dollars from a terribly rude customer isn't worth being treated like dirt....but then again, anything for money, right?

C) It's not about who "deserved" prompt service and hot food, and the fact that you used that word again belies your bias on the topic. The service representative in question was hired to provide that service, irrespective of how the people they provided the service to acted. You can bitch all you want after they leave, but when you work in this industry, you're told the customer is always right. So unless they're physically or verbally threatening to the point where they need to be removed, that's kind of the way things are. And that, my friends, is a battle far greater than tipping....because that involves a person's general upbringing (or lack thereof) and not just whether they can spare a dollar or two on a tab. Point is, if you let the customer's "bad" behavior directly influence how you interact with them, you're kind of stooping to their level.

D) And just to reiterate one more time, I say all of this being somebody who still tips (and in some cases better than most other people due to wanting round numbers on my tabs). I know that might seem hypocritical, but I do it because the peer pressure that comes from this batshit backward mentality is pretty staunch.


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## Joose (Dec 21, 2014)

Hell I'd tip the UPS guy if he wasn't gone by the time I even make it to the door.


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## musicaldeath (Dec 21, 2014)

Tips stands for To Insure Prompt Service. You used to give the waiter/tress or whoever a little extra money at the beginning so that they wouldn't forget about you if it was busy or so that you would receive their utmost in regards to your service/experience. Somewhere along the way it got flipped around. And of course, became a way to not pay servers/whomever more as they should always get tips.

Yes, I think it's stupid that people expect tips nowadays if they are in the service industry. On the other hand, I am not going to stop tipping people who do provide a good service as I am essentially screwing them over.


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## tedtan (Dec 21, 2014)

Watty said:


> I'll admit that the ideas are not exactly equitable, but the overall intent still somewhat applies given that both jobs were accepted contingent upon those costs being involved. And while the delivery driver might use his car for said work, his wage (as has been stated) unfortunately doesn't capture that in a way that makes the two situations completely different. I understand what you're saying, I just think the link between the two scenarios can be made depending on how you look at it.



If the point is accepting the job based on the pay and knowing the expenses you will incur, you also have to realize that the person accepted the job as a delivery driver knowing that he would be receiving tips, too. Otherwise he would be coming out of hi pocket to provide a service to you rather than working a job. That might be acceptable for a wealthy philanthropist (though there are certainly more important areas for their work and donations than pizza delivery ), but the people delivering pizzas can't afford to do so.




Watty said:


> You just stated exactly what I tried to say, albeit with a more detailed evaluation of the progression of events and the numbers involved...?
> 
> And it helps the employee by allowing them to be paid more as you stated in your second sentence quoted above. Not sure why you wouldn't have included him in your final summation at the end of the quoted bit. And if the employee, the manager, and the business are doing well....does it really matter if it's benefitting anyone else? There's no one else that inherently has to benefit so long as business is doing well. Customers don't inherently benefit from a service existing and them using it. That's what the economy is predicated upon in a capitalist system.



Perhaps I misunderstood your post. I read it to mean that the sales (as measured by revenue and profit, not just orders, because that's typically how we think in business), which would put the hurt on the owners. I think the owners would be able to establish a new (higher) price point that wouldn't leave them loosing too much, if anything, over where they are today.

Regarding the delivery drivers, we don't know if they would benefit or not. Some would be laid off and out of work. And of the remaining employed drivers, some may do better to leave and find another job. Some may be better off with a set wage. And some may end up losing money, especially if the reports of $20/hour we've seen in thread are true.

And concerning the customers benefitting well, the purpose of a business is to maximize the wealth of the owner(s). And in order to do this, they have to provide a product or service that benefits their customers. If the product/service fails to benefit the customers at its price point, then the customers won't buy it, the business will close and the owner(s) will end up losing all or part of their investment, which accomplishes the opposite of their original intent. So for a business to remain a going concern, the customers really do need to benefit from that business's offering in order to continue purchasing from it.


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## tedtan (Dec 21, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> That's a good point. Half of the examples I provided inflict pain on the owners. But sometimes there isn't a way to do that, so you almost have to "martyr" yourself. Kind of like a hunger strike. It brings attention to the issue due to the pain. Or, if enough people do it there won't be a way to hire someone else. I know it's not realistic that we could organize something, but I could see a day where Dominos drivers unionized, or someone organized a mass delivery driver walkout day or something. I just feel like something big like that needs to occur, because otherwise writing a letter to a congressman, or to the owner of a pizza franchise, and demanding higher pay for the drivers is likely to be met with, "well, the system is working fine, and no one is complaining."



I think that it would be significantly more effective to work through legislation or even unionizing of delivery drivers (they are not organized enough for this to be a practical reality, though) than simply to stop tipping because we would all have to stop tipping in order for it to work, which is very impractical.


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## Pav (Dec 21, 2014)

I'm still floored by how a conversation over $3 or $4 in pizza delivery tips escalated...to this.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 21, 2014)

Welcome to the internet. It's a silly place.


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## ZeroTolerance94 (Dec 22, 2014)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Welcome to the internet. It's a silly place.



I have to admit... part of me feels a little proud to have started this.
...On a guitar forum. 

Oh well, now I know my $5 tip was acceptable... or was it?


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## Xaios (Dec 22, 2014)

ZeroTolerance94 said:


> I have to admit... part of me feels a little proud to have started this.
> ...On a guitar forum.
> 
> Oh well, now I know my $5 tip was acceptable... or was it?



Nothing is acceptable.

Everything is acceptable.

1 = 2.

&#960;. Pizza &#960;.


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## Pav (Dec 22, 2014)

ZeroTolerance94 said:


> I have to admit... part of me feels a little proud to have started this.
> ...On a guitar forum.
> 
> Oh well, now I know my $5 tip was acceptable... or was it?



As a former pizza delivery driver, a $5 tip would have made you the highlight of my day.  $2 or $3 was the usual standard.


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## Murdstone (Dec 22, 2014)

I tip everyone on my subway car 25% because this is America.


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## AdenM (Dec 23, 2014)

Having the lady friend over today, decided to order some pizzas. I'm giving the guy %15-20 based on the 5 second interaction we have when he hands me the pies. Will report in later. #America


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## pushpull7 (Dec 25, 2014)

I just wanted to be in this thread because it's epic


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## tacotiklah (Dec 25, 2014)

As bad as not tipping is, I suppose it could be worse:


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