# Stiffest and most "neutral" wood?



## teleofseven (Mar 6, 2013)

just a quick question. 

what do you think is the stiffest and most neutral wood there is, meaning overall stiffness, hardness and least prone to warping?

why am i asking? i want such wood for my to be necks, cause they're going to be laminated with 2 strips of that wood, and with maple 
(like this:


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## flypap3r (Mar 6, 2013)

Walnut or bubinga (just my opinion though)


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## teleofseven (Mar 6, 2013)

flypap3r said:


> Walnut or bubinga (just my opinion though)



any experience in using them in your builds?


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## Necromagnon (Mar 6, 2013)

Many woods can be stable, considering you've well cut them (perfectly quartersawn, and not "false quarter sawn" like seen some times), well dried and acclimated, there's no problem of warping. Also, wood is a living material, full of internal stresses. So it's prone to move, no matter what you do. There's no miraculous specie, as far as I know.
If you want something more stable, you'll have to use a "dead" material, meaning by this some composites, metals, or material created by human.


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## Walterson (Mar 6, 2013)

Stiffest: Ebony. But it tends to move quite a bit when the moisture content changes...

I would go for Padouk. Almost as stiff as Ebony but way lighter and less prone to shrinking/expanding.


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## foreright (Mar 6, 2013)

As above - stiffest is not necessarily the most stable... how about Wenge or Purpleheart? Those are pretty dense and used quite a bit in basses where this is more important.


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## Murmel (Mar 6, 2013)

God, I wanna make the joke so bad.....


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## teleofseven (Mar 6, 2013)

Murmel said:


> God, I wanna make the joke so bad.....


you got some stiff wood in mind? ;D

well i'm planning to make (basicly an overkill) as stable neck as possible. 

to me that means ,q-sawn rock maple with 2 strips of some suitable wood and 2 CF rods inside the neck.
i'm just that paranoid.  at the very least, i'll have made a neck that has "it all" so to speak. and if it still warps (too much to my liking) then atleast i'll know the maximum you can
acchieve with woods, and that i really tried.

but i would think that a neck like that would be quite stable?

the goal is overkill. absolute maximum stability that can be acchieved with woods and some CF.

but i wouldn't be asking if i didn't want to learn something new


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 6, 2013)

Purpleheart is going to be just about the most stable wood, generally, that you'll come across. It's very hard without being prone to cracking or chipping like a lot of different Ebony varieties. Also, once properly dried/seasoned it doesn't move or shift much. 

There's a reason that guys like Bill Conklin swear by the stuff when building some huge basses.


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## teleofseven (Mar 6, 2013)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Purpleheart is going to be just about the most stable wood, generally, that you'll come across. It's very hard without being prone to cracking or chipping like a lot of different Ebony varieties. Also, once properly dried/seasoned it doesn't move or shift much.
> 
> There's a reason that guys like Bill Conklin swear by the stuff when building some huge basses.



great! this is what i was looking for. 

any opinions on if the strips should be flat or quarter sawn, given that the rest of the neck is quarter sawn maple? what i mean is should i glue the pieces like lllElllElll or lllIIlllIIlll?


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## Adam Partridge (Mar 6, 2013)

I'm making a neck the same as you're doing:
Maple with 2 dark 6mm stripes, 12mm apart.
The stripes were gonna be walnut but the motherpisskidneying things warped like fook when i cut em to thickness so i got some quartersawn wenge instead & added 2 5mm x 6mm carbon rods.
Neck is solid as a rock now, although it's yet to be spokeshaven...

I like the abovementioned purplehearty suggestion though. Something to bear in mind for my next build...


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## UnderTheSign (Mar 6, 2013)

Walterson said:


> Stiffest: Ebony. But it tends to move quite a bit when the moisture content changes...
> 
> I would go for Padouk. Almost as stiff as Ebony but way lighter and less prone to shrinking/expanding.


That's what they told me too until I had a pair of box sides warp like freaking hell.

I do second the vote for purpleheart.


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## Mr_Bene (Mar 6, 2013)

I notice that there is a lot unscientific kind of half-knowledge involved in this thread. For example Padouk is far away from being as stiff as ebony (even less than hard maple), whereas ebony isn't even the stiffest wood available.
Recently I did some research in books about mechanical properties of wood as I study wood technology at the moment. 
You can also check out The Wood Database | Hardwood and Softwood Lumber Identification for Woodworking. I could find a lot of the data of this website in scientific articles from various universities or research institutes. Thus, the data from this website seems to be quite reliable.

Woods stiffer than ebony are (in no particular order):
-Marblewood
-Bloodwood
-Katalox (the stiffest one)
-Jatoba
-Snakewood
-Bubinga
-Bamboo (by far the best stiffness to density ratio, but will probably only work as a multilaminate)

All the woods I listed are not threatened or endangered in any way, in contrast to ebony, for example. I think it's something that should be kept in mind.


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## teleofseven (Mar 6, 2013)

Mr_Bene said:


> I notice that there is a lot unscientific kind of half-knowledge involved in this thread. For example Padouk is far away from being as stiff as ebony (even less than hard maple), whereas ebony isn't even the stiffest wood available.
> Recently I did some research in books about mechanical properties of wood as I study wood technology at the moment.
> You can also check out The Wood Database | Hardwood and Softwood Lumber Identification for Woodworking. I could find a lot of the data of this website in scientific articles from various universities or research institutes. Thus, the data from this website seems to be quite reliable.
> 
> ...



yup, but were not looking for just stiffness or hardness anymore. were also looking for stability. the search for the most suitable wood to be combined with q-sawn rock maple, in order to make the most stable neck as possible using maple and CF with the ??? wood. 

purpleheart seems to be on the lead.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 6, 2013)

Carbon Fibre? Not a wood obviously but I've heard this can be used in necks since it will never move/expand/crack etc


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## Mr_Bene (Mar 6, 2013)

Purpleheart is definetly a good choice, I agree with you!! 

However, in my opinion Katalox is even more suitable. The stiffness is considerably higher (ca. 30%) than the one of purpleheart while the shrinkage values of both woods are more or less the same. The ratio between tangential and radial shrinkage is also the same for both wood species.
Unfortunately there is not much info about the use of Katalox as a guitar neck wood in practice. Maybe purpleheart would be a safer choice as you know what to expect.

On a side note: I doubt that the wood has a high effect on the stability of the neck when it is combined with carbon fiber, anyway.


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## Xk6m6m5X (Mar 6, 2013)

lets not forget iron wood...idk the scientific name or tonal quilitys but my neighb or built a cabinet out of it and you can hit it with a hammer and it wont dent


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## SkullCrusher (Mar 6, 2013)

iirc bubinga is the hardest wood


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 6, 2013)

Mr_Bene said:


> I notice that there is a lot unscientific kind of half-knowledge involved in this thread. For example Padouk is far away from being as stiff as ebony (even less than hard maple), whereas ebony isn't even the stiffest wood available.
> Recently I did some research in books about mechanical properties of wood as I study wood technology at the moment.
> You can also check out The Wood Database | Hardwood and Softwood Lumber Identification for Woodworking. I could find a lot of the data of this website in scientific articles from various universities or research institutes. Thus, the data from this website seems to be quite reliable.
> 
> ...





Mr_Bene said:


> Purpleheart is definetly a good choice, I agree with you!!
> 
> However, in my opinion Katalox is even more suitable. The stiffness is considerably higher (ca. 30%) than the one of purpleheart while the shrinkage values of both woods are more or less the same. The ratio between tangential and radial shrinkage is also the same for both wood species.
> Unfortunately there is not much info about the use of Katalox as a guitar neck wood in practice. Maybe purpleheart would be a safer choice as you know what to expect.
> ...



Worth noting is that Snakewood, Katalox, and Marblewood are quite prone to cracking. They are incredibly stiff indeed, too much so in fact. 

You're 100% correct on Bamboo. Take a look at the Chapman Stick models made entirely of Bamboo. Cool stuff.


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## Overtone (Mar 6, 2013)

It's somewhat anecdotal, but my q-sawn neck thru soloist (85) pretty much NEVER needs a truss rod adjustment, while the maple/purple laminate on my Sherman has had to be adjusted every few months. Perhaps the age of the instruments factors in some. I am really interested in if roasting the maple would produce similar effects to the age of the instrument I have... but even in the late 90's when I got it that thing was rock solid.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 6, 2013)

Overtone said:


> It's somewhat anecdotal, but my q-sawn neck thru soloist (85) pretty much NEVER needs a truss rod adjustment, while the maple/purple laminate on my Sherman has had to be adjusted every few months. Perhaps the age of the instruments factors in some. I am really interested in if roasting the maple would produce similar effects to the age of the instrument I have... but even in the late 90's when I got it that thing was rock solid.



Contrary to a lot of internet hubbub, maple, even non-laminate, is extremely strong and stable. Especially if of high quality, well seasoned, and quartersawn. There are thousands of 50's and 60's Fenders which can attest to that, and even more old Charvels, Jacksons, Ibanez, etc. which are two or more decades in age. 

The hate for single piece maple comes down to a few factors:
- It's not "special", tons of guitars have it and thus people on the internet find it too pedestrian. Much like the rosewood hate. 
- Tons of cheap shitty guitars have shitty maple necks. 
- Most folks have no idea how to maintain their instruments.


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## frank falbo (Mar 7, 2013)

Clarify the design. You're saying there will be 2 CF strips? Will they be directly at the strips? In other words will you remove most of this strip wood anyway when you route a channel for the CF? Just thinking it through. If so, then its far less important and you want to make sure the wood takes glue joints well, since it'll be thin in most of the critical areas.


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## Nile (Mar 7, 2013)

I have a Yamaha guitar with a single piece maple neck (non-quartersawn.) Its around seven years old and I've never maintained it or even touched the truss rod. Its never needed one ever. The thing doesn't move.


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## axxessdenied (Mar 7, 2013)

Cooked / Roasted Maple. Very stable and SEXY AS HEEEEELL!


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## teleofseven (Mar 7, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> Carbon Fibre? Not a wood obviously but I've heard this can be used in necks since it will never move/expand/crack etc



CF rods will be placed in the neck.

edit: some people are saying their factory built necks don't warp. while that may be true, you cannot be sure of the quality of the wood the supplier sells to a consumer.
for all i know (and maybe even the supplier) the wood they sell is bought from a company that has just cut the wood from the forrest, and sold the pieces to the supplier. they may have kept the wood in a dry place and let time dry the wood out. which is not like how factories get their wood and then dry them in ovens ect.
i do not have the same tools factories have to make their necks stable, such as high pressure clamps or drying ovens. i do cannot know anything about the history of the wood. factories also have the ability to choose their woods and measure their humidity. they can also scrap a bad neck right at the production line. which is something an average hobby guitar builder cannot do.

once you manufacture that wood you've bought, start shawing wood off of it, it may release tensions and it may warp. which is what happened to my most recent project's neck. granted it had a one piece flat sawn maple neck, but that whole incident gave me the fear of it happening again. i was lucky that the trussrod could straighten it enough to be playable. but if it couldn't have saved the neck, replacing the neck would've been a fucking nightmare, since it's a set neck! i never ever want to make a neck again, blindly believing that it'll stay straight. i want to make sure it'll be as stable as possible.

as i said, i am paranoid about it. 

i cannot know for sure the quality of the wood, before i start or am done with working on it. all i know is the specs and what the supplier tells me about it suppliers can say (lie) whatever they want, try sending a completed neck back to them and demand a refund.

i've seen several 5 piece necks that still have CF rods in them and the glue holds well. titebond to my understanding is stronger than any wood, the wood will break before the glue does.

i don't care about tonal variations, i care about stability. i'm sick of having bad necks in my builds. you ship a badly dried piece of wood from a warm humid country to a cold and dry scandinavian country and see what happens!

sorry if i got all NCO on this post.


...all i can do, is throw money at somebody and hope for the best.


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## gavn13 (Mar 7, 2013)

Petrified? 
but in all seriousness baked maple or ipe, bloodwood or anything else above.


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## teleofseven (Mar 7, 2013)

i'm kinda tilting towards purpleheart just because maxofmetal said it, and to my knowledge he knows his shit.

even that is kinda hard to find being sold in the EU. (or as i call it, FUBARU)


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## Navid (Mar 8, 2013)

I'm building a 5 pieces sipo neck with 4 carbon fiber rods and 1 dual action truss rod.
I use 4 CF rods because I'm not sure the sipo I get is stable enough, i have not been able to buy it from serious suppliers as I couldn't find any in my budget.
I've been told 4 rods are overkill even in 1 piece balsa neck.

I can't talk about the result as of now but i'd suggest you to invest in 2 extra cf rods. Shit is stable brah


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## foreright (Mar 8, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> i'm kinda tilting towards purpleheart just because maxofmetal said it, and to my knowledge he knows his shit.
> 
> even that is kinda hard to find being sold in the EU. (or as i call it, FUBARU)



These guys said they had limited stocks of purpleheart when I spoke to them the other day if that helps... Yandles Timber, Tools, Machinery, Hobbies and Gifts


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## teleofseven (Mar 9, 2013)

foreright said:


> These guys said they had limited stocks of purpleheart when I spoke to them the other day if that helps... Yandles Timber, Tools, Machinery, Hobbies and Gifts



Electric Guitar and Bass Bridges this guy sells purpleheart but i don't know if they have it in stock.


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## anthonyferguson (Mar 9, 2013)

The problem is wood is inherently unstable and prone to moving about. Purpleheart is popular it would seem, but don't forget maple! There's a reason so many people use it. At the end of the day, however, it's much more dependant on the cut you get and how straight the grain is.

As an aside I build pipe organs and the pedals are more often than not made from beech. The pedals are about a metre long by 80mm by 25mm, and you wouldn't believe the variance in the amount of movement. Some of them twist by 5-6 degrees or more while others remain completely unchanged after 150 years of people tramping up and down on them in cold and damp environments! Take some time to be picky and select your pieces carefully- I'm sure you'll find something that will suit you & your builds down to the ground.


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## teleofseven (Mar 9, 2013)

anthonyferguson said:


> The problem is wood is inherently unstable and prone to moving about. Purpleheart is popular it would seem, but don't forget maple! There's a reason so many people use it. At the end of the day, however, it's much more dependant on the cut you get and how straight the grain is.
> 
> As an aside I build pipe organs and the pedals are more often than not made from beech. The pedals are about a metre long by 80mm by 25mm, and you wouldn't believe the variance in the amount of movement. Some of them twist by 5-6 degrees or more while others remain completely unchanged after 150 years of people tramping up and down on them in cold and damp environments! Take some time to be picky and select your pieces carefully- I'm sure you'll find something that will suit you & your builds down to the ground.



as said before, maple and CF rods will be used.

were looking for the most suitable wood that would work in addition with those materials, in order to have (specswise) the most stable neck.

and i do know wood lives and is unstable. i have a ton of experience in woodwork and building guitars. i just have never built a more complex neck, if you like. i've never done more than a 3 piece neck.

so looking for that right wood to go with *CF* and *q-sawn rock maple*.

purpleheart still seems the best opinion. 

please, if you don't have anything new to add to what's already said on this thread, don't say it. so that others would not say it again too.

and please do not say things like "utopiawood is pretty stiff i guess" or something in the like, cause that tells me nothing.


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## Sepultorture (Mar 9, 2013)

roasted maple is completely stiff and stable, and is actually done to prevent even the most remote possibility of warping, it takes moisture out of the wood just so that it can be more stable as a neck in any climate


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## teleofseven (Mar 9, 2013)

Sepultorture said:


> roasted maple is completely stiff and stable, and is actually done to prevent even the most remote possibility of warping, it takes moisture out of the wood just so that it can be more stable as a neck in any climate



ok. i hope i can find some of that as quartersawn and the rock type in the eu.

edit. nope. i can't find any.


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## Navid (Mar 9, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> ok. i hope i can find some of that as quartersawn and the rock type in the eu.
> 
> edit. nope. i can't find any.



Are you sure you can't find any?
Most wood suppliers offer that treatment, it's called wood vulcanization. Try asking your suppliers about it.
It is basically made putting lumber inside an oven at 200°C for a while.
I've read of people doing it (before it became a very requested treatment) with their own oven, the ones you cook cakes in.


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## teleofseven (Mar 9, 2013)

Navid said:


> Are you sure you can't find any?
> Most wood suppliers offer that treatment, it's called wood vulcanization. Try asking your suppliers about it.
> It is basically made putting lumber inside an oven at 200°C for a while.
> I've read of people doing it (before it became a very requested treatment) with their own oven, the ones you cook cakes in.



yeah i guess i could try it myself. can't fit a whole neck inside my oven but i guess i can flip it or something. but that would make the center more roasted than the ends?

but the suppliers that i've asked said they can't do it. sucks a baboon ass. but atleast i can get the type of maple i want, even if it's not vulcanized/roasted/baked/shitted on.

what is great tho, the supplier that i linked above sells all the woods i need AND they've got purpleheart in stock! i'm so happy i don't need to buy the woods from several suppliers.


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## MF_Kitten (Mar 9, 2013)

Ipe and leadwood/black ironwood would be excellent woods to try for this apparently. But honestly, the woods most commonly used these days are your best bet, because that's why they're there.


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## teleofseven (Mar 27, 2013)

roasting maple tho... has anybody here done it? i can't find any instructions on doing it yourself here, or anywhere. or any threads.

i would imagine leaving a blank of maple (that can only fit partially to a regula home oven) in the oven and then turning it around at some point, that that would roast the middle part of it more than the ends?

aaah. the joy of finding and trying out yourself with no experience and instructions. and then buying more expensive wood cuz you fu..d up the first piece 

so uhh... anybody with experience?


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## UnderTheSign (Mar 27, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> roasting maple tho... has anybody here done it? i can't find any instructions on doing it yourself here, or anywhere. or any threads.
> 
> i would imagine leaving a blank of maple (that can only fit partially to a regula home oven) in the oven and then turning it around at some point, that that would roast the middle part of it more than the ends?
> 
> ...


From Suhr
_"Roasted Maple - A new innovative feature, the Roasted Maple necks are cut from Maple wood blanks that are "baked" in high-tech oxygen-free ovens at a temperature of 250 degrees Farenheit by our wood supplier. This process removes moisture and all kinds of other organic "impurities" that affect the stability of the wood and make it much more rigid while adding a deep and warm amber color for a natural vintage look. 

_So ehh, I'd say it's time to go shopping for a new oven


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## Mr_Bene (Mar 27, 2013)

I think the main idea behind roasting wood is to degrade the hemicellulose which is pretty much the wood component that absorbs water. 

I did a roasting test at home with a small pine specimen. But I need to machine the piece and another untreated piece of the same original piece to the exact same measurements. Then I will expose both to a different climate and see what happens.

Another way to get wood more stable is to acetylate it. Of course, you can't do that by yourself but maybe you find a supplier on the internet.
The idea is pretty much to acetylate free hydroxyl groups in the wood so they are blocked to form bonds with water molecules.

I also found some data about several pretty exotic woods with a high stiffness, really low overall shrinkage and low t/r shrinkage ratio:
Anjan, Argentine Osage Orange, Quina, Ipe (very low t/r ratio, and already mentioned)


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## ElRay (Mar 27, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> ... (perfectly quartersawn, and not "false quarter sawn" like seen some times) ...



What do you mean by "perfectly quartersawn"? 

Quartersawn just refers to the grain direction in relation to the face in question. You can take any flat or rift sawn board (as long as it's thick enough), cut slices off of it at an appropriate angle and you've got a quarter sawn strip for a neck.

Ray


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## Mr_Bene (Mar 28, 2013)

That's true. 
But if you look at the sawing pattern that is usually used for quartersawn boards you can see that some boards don't have perfectly standing annual growth rings anymore. I guess that's the meaning of "false quartersawn".

http://www.me.rochester.edu/courses/ME280/quartersawn.jpg

Actually, rift sawn wood seems to be even more appropriate as all boards are aligned perfectly radial.


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## Necromagnon (Mar 28, 2013)

I should try to fine some pictures of the "false-quarter" (this is a direct french to english translation, it may not be correct), to show. It's somewhere between quarter and flat sawn. It gives the impression when looking at the board that it's quarter, but it's not, thus the stability is bad compared to a quartersawn piece. And some wood suppliers sold you this kind of cut like quartersawn, and it's farily more expensive than it should be.


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## Metal_Webb (Mar 28, 2013)

Mr_Bene said:


> Actually, rift sawn wood seems to be even more appropriate as all boards are aligned perfectly radial.



Maybe so, but this is a case of where the "best" option is not normally used to cut the timber, simply due to the large amount of wastage from the log.

Oh and people who were saying use Bamboo? Strictly speaking it's not wood but a grass  Anything that's in planks has been processed. Still a bloody good material though.


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## teleofseven (Mar 28, 2013)

Metal_Webb said:


> Oh and people who were saying use Bamboo? Strictly speaking it's not wood but a grass  Anything that's in planks has been processed. Still a bloody good material though.



tastes good too 

so there's basicly no "homemade" method of vulcanizing wood? darn it. 
sometimes i just hate import taxes. what's the point? i've already paid shipping and taxes for the product to the country i've ordered that product from. why do i need to pay taxes to the eu too?!?!

i mean, if nobody supplies roasted q-sawn rock maple in the eu, i'm kinda fucked! (if i was to order it overseas)

what a lovely union we have.


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## Ishan (Mar 28, 2013)

If you buy outside the EU you're entitled to ask not to pay taxes and only pay import taxes.


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## Mr_Bene (Mar 28, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> tastes good too
> 
> so there's basicly no "homemade" method of vulcanizing wood? darn it.
> sometimes i just hate import taxes. what's the point? i've already paid shipping and taxes for the product to the country i've ordered that product from. why do i need to pay taxes to the eu too?!?!



The question is, if it is possible to roast wood in a regular oven, assuming that the oven is big enough. I will further investigate it (just because of my own interest), but it will very likely take few weeks until I have any results.

@Metal_Webb: All very true


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## Necromagnon (Mar 28, 2013)

It seems taht roasting wood needs a controlled atmosphere, not to simply burn the wood and have only coal left after the treatment. Those kind of ovens are quite expensive (we were looking at the lab to buy one of small size for some heat treatement on other materials, and it's not cheap...), so I think the best way to have some would be to ask a dealer directly that can fund you some.

About taxes: you buy outside your country something that you import, and on which you normally pay import taxes when buying inside your country (or what importaters pay), so why won't you pay those? Just because you're a "single" customer? And what would happened if everybody was doing so?

We have the same "problem" in France, and if I'm completely with the fact to pay VAT when importing something by my own, our high people found a way to f*** us a bit more: they add "handling fees" on your import taxes, fees that vary randomly. So yes, you basically pay more for the job a guy taking a calculator and making a multiplication. The biggest problme is that this guy is an agent of governement already paid on your common everyday taxes (so you pay him twice...)...

But, anyway, ithat's not the topic!
Roasted maple looks nice, find some!


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## teamSKDM (Mar 28, 2013)

What about a one piece wenge or purple heart neck with 2 titanium truss rods? Or wenge purple wenge purple wenge neck?


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## Necromagnon (Mar 28, 2013)

teamSKDM said:


> 2 titanium truss rods


How much does this cost, seriously? 
Why use titanium, evenmore, where carbon fibre or even steel can do the trick with a price that might be 7/8 times less?


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## penguin_316 (Apr 2, 2013)

Purpleheart...all day every day. It's natures concrete. I've had it on 3 different builds and some baritones I used to own. It just refuses to move, I could lay those guitars on hangars for months and pick them up and the action and tuning would be the same.

No other wood I've ever come across even comes close. Paduak is not near as stable...I made an archtop with it once(not to mention its toxic to work with, gave me hives all the time on my hands/arms).


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