# Newbie needs help with Theory/Modes



## vejichan (Jan 16, 2022)

Have a few things i want to clarify in regards to theory - Keep in mind i don't know theory so keep it simple. I am keeping this all in D and my understanding is the concept is the same for the other keys (C, E, F, G, A, B etc)

D Mixolydian Mode is G major scale starting on D (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C,D)
If someone was strumming a D major Chord - I can use D mixolydian mode to solo over that
I can use D ionian mode, D lydian mode, D Mixolydian mode to solo over someone strumming a D major Chord
I can use D Dorian, D Phrygian mode, D Aeolian mode to solo over someone strumming a D minor Chord
Please correct me if i am wrong. If this is true then it has open some doors for me in regard to theory and using it in my music. Taking baby steps.


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## jaxadam (Jan 16, 2022)

That’s exactly right. What will change is the _other_ flat or sharp notes in the modes related to the key.

I think the most important thing is learning the finger patterns of each mode first before getting hung up on key.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 17, 2022)

You are correct but I tend to take a more practical approach.

When playing modal stuff, I never (or very rarely) think of the parent major scale.

My suggestions…

1. Learn the interval formulas of modes (relative to root).

Example:
Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7
Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
etc.

2. Interval visualization:

Choose a note, say D.

Build the chosen mode (e.g. D mixolydian) by playing your guitar and actually spotting the correct intervals relative to the chosen note. Do that all over your fretboard (i.e. starting from all the Ds, ascending, descending).

3. Learn the interval formulas of chords.

Example:

D7 is 1 3 5 b7
Dmaj7 is 1 3 5 7
Dmin7 is 1 b3 5 b7
etc.

4. put it all together.

Given that knowledge (interval formulas for modes and chords) it should be easy to figure out which modes to play over a given chord.

Example: over a D7 chord, it would be weird to play D Ionian, unless you want the dissonance of the b7 from D7 to clash with the 7 from D Ionian.

With interval visualization skills on your fretboard, it should make it easier to apply this « on the fly » when playing over chords.

My 2 cents


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## vejichan (Jan 18, 2022)

man this is so confusing so let me try to process ok.. i get that if you change the chord the mode would change so for example on a classic - I, 4, 5, progression in C --C, F, G .. so lets say i have someone strumming the c chord for 4 bars, F chord for 4 bars and G chord for 4 bars and loop that i can play the c ionan mode over the c chord - focusing on the chord tones of C major chord (C, E, G notes) and F Lydian mode (F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F) - focusing on the chord tones of F major chord (F, A, C) and finally the G Mixolydian mode (G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G) - Focusing on the chord tones of G major chord (G, B, D). Please confirm if this is correct. This is just a starting point .. so what about in a minor progression?


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## jaxadam (Jan 18, 2022)

You wanna get really confused?

x^n is the number of probabilistic outcomes of a system. 

Let's take a 2-bit camera that only has the colors red and blue. This camera would only be able to take 4 pictures (2^2 = 4), and those pictures would be a red-red, red-blue, blue-red, and blue-blue.

Now, considering the guitar only has a finite number of notes, we can conclude that only a finite number of songs could ever be written!


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## bostjan (Jan 18, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> You wanna get really confused?
> 
> x^n is the number of probabilistic outcomes of a system.
> 
> ...


All possible songs have already been copyrighted: https://www.hypebot.com/hypebot/202...opyrighted-stored-on-a-single-hard-drive.html

Except, if you ask a crazy microtonalist like me, they haven't, because the premise that there are only 12 notes is artificial. A tone is more akin to a real number than an integer, so between any two tones, there exists an intermediate tone. At some point, this becomes practically meaningless, though, because there is no quantifiable measurement of similarity on a continuum.

But back to OP -

Yes, that is correct. It might be better to learn how to solo around chord changes, though, rather than just over a static chord. The changes should inform the melody you end up choosing. A common chord change might be I - IV - V - I, for example G - C - D - G, over which you could play G major. G lydian will sound weird over the C chord, though, and G mixolydian will potentially clash a little with the D major chord, but you can try them out and see what happens.

It's just that real songs (at least in Western Music traditions, that is, any music in Europe or contemporary North America) will all be chord changes and not just drones.


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## vejichan (Jan 18, 2022)

Thanks.. so what about minor progression and what options do i have to solo over them


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## vejichan (Jan 18, 2022)

ok so let me rethink this.. lets say i am playing thru the C, F, G chord progressions ...so from what you are saying i can just use c major (ionian mode) scale thru the entire progression but focus on the chordal tones of C and F and G during the chord changes? if this is the case -- if we were in a a minor progression - Am, Dm, Em , i can play the A minor (Aeolian mode) scale thru the entire progression but focuse on teh chordal tones of the Am, Dm, Em thru the chord changes?


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## tedtan (Jan 18, 2022)

vejichan said:


> man this is so confusing so let me try to process ok.. i get that if you change the chord the mode would change so for example on a classic - I, 4, 5, progression in C --C, F, G .. so lets say i have someone strumming the c chord for 4 bars, F chord for 4 bars and G chord for 4 bars and loop that i can play the c ionan mode over the c chord - focusing on the chord tones of C major chord (C, E, G notes) and F Lydian mode (F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F) - focusing on the chord tones of F major chord (F, A, C) and finally the G Mixolydian mode (G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G) - Focusing on the chord tones of G major chord (G, B, D). Please confirm if this is correct. This is just a starting point .. so what about in a minor progression?



You don’t need to make it that difficult. You can just play C Major (aka, C Ionian) and emphasize the chord tones - the notes are the same in the modes you mention, the only difference is in how you emphasize them.

From there, you can play modal music emphasizing the sound of the modes, but your chord “progressions” will 1) emphasize the altered notes in the mode, and 2) not typically be functional harmony/progressions but two or three chords vamps without the tension and release of functional harmony.

Minor is the same as major, just using different note emphases. For example, A Minor is is made of the same notes as C Major (A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A) just starting on a different note. So you can play in A Minor over an A Minor progression emphasizing the chord tones. Just be aware that in minor we also have Harmonic Minor (A-B-C-D-E-F-G#-A) in A, which raises the G to a G# to make the v chord into a major V chord, and Melodic Minor (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G#-A) in A, which used melodically to smooth out the interval jump from F to G#. But you can ignore these to start with.


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## tedtan (Jan 18, 2022)

vejichan said:


> ok so let me rethink this.. lets say i am playing thru the C, F, G chord progressions ...so from what you are saying i can just use c major (ionian mode) scale thru the entire progression but focus on the chordal tones of C and F and G during the chord changes? if this is the case -- if we were in a a minor progression - Am, Dm, Em , i can play the A minor (Aeolian mode) scale thru the entire progression but focuse on teh chordal tones of the Am, Dm, Em thru the chord changes?



Yes.


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## bostjan (Jan 18, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks.. so what about minor progression and what options do i have to solo over them


Way more options with minor scales...

I'll get into some details, but first, if you are just starting out with soloing ideas, please try the major chord exercises and move onto this once you've wrapped your head around how to play through a simple chord change...

Still reading? Ok, I guess you've already played through G - C - D - G with the G major scale and can use the chords a queues to form the basis of a solo... onward...

The classic is Minor Swing: Am Dm E7 Am Dm Am E7 Am 1 bar each (8 total) then repeat until the song is over. You can start by playing the arpeggios over the chords: A C E (hold) A C E (hold) D F A (hold) D F A (hold) E G# B (hold) E G# B (hold) etc. then play around with other notes, but try to stick to keeping the emphasis on the root note of the chord. If you can get this rolling, it's almost impossible to make it sound bad.

That one is based off of a motif that comes from the harmonic minor scale: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 for example in Am- A B C D E F G#, but if you listen to people play it, you will hear it played in all sorts of plain and exotic minor scales, and as long as you stay off of notes that clash with the chord you are playing over, it will sound good. In fact, sometimes you hear it performed with extra colourful chords and with solo notes that ought to clash with those, but it still sometimes works anyway.

At least that's how I would start with a minor scale in a traditional western music sense. The alternative to that is a blues progression where the melody stays the same and the chords change how the melody is interpreted.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 18, 2022)

You can play anything over anything as long as it sounds good to you / works for whatever you're trying to do.

Even your plain old diatonic scales have some pretty dissonant stuff going on with m2 and tritone intervals in there so there's a way to sound "wrong" even when following pretty strict theoretical guidance (pentatonic scales alleviate some of that although the price to pay for this is getting into more boring/predictable territory). Try lingering on the Eb note over Dm in Phrygian for example.

So now before you go on "breaking the law" its helpful (but not absolutely required) to know at least on some level what the "law" is, but unlike with the actual laws - music theory is much less prescriptive. It's defo useful on many diff levels for concrete practical applications so there's that too.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 18, 2022)

You want a neat trick to help you learn modes?

Start with the Major and Minor parent scale. Learn the Major and Minor Pentatonic scales in all 5 positions. Then just add the "signature flavor" notes from each mode that differs from the Major/Minor.

For example, Lydian is a #4. So when you play your Major Pentatonic, use a #4 instead of the P4.

Dorian differs from the Minor scale in that it has a M6 instead of a m6. There is no M6 or m6 in the Pentatonic, so here you just add that note which will give you a Dorian _Hexatonic _scale.

Experiment with lingering on these flavor tones or just using them as passing tones. Players like Nick Johnston and Mateus Asato do this all the time to make their soloing sound unique and more interesting. There is nothing worse than playing scales/modes up and down in order "by the numbers". We've all heard solos that just sound like someone paying practice exercises at hyper speed lol. (e.g. not fast, but listen to the Sweating Bullets solo by Dave Mustaine )


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## bostjan (Jan 18, 2022)

USMarine75 said:


> You want a neat trick to help you learn modes?
> 
> Start with the Major and Minor parent scale. Learn the Major and Minor Pentatonic scales in all 5 positions. Then just add the "signature flavor" notes from each mode that differs from the Major/Minor.
> 
> ...



Actually, there's no perfect 4th in the pentatonic major scale either. The pentatonic scales are perfectly colourless when it comes to the modes, that is to say that the minor pentatonic lacks the 2nd and 7th, so the phrygian and dorian are equally represented with the natural minor and the major pentatonic lacks the 4th and 7th, so the lydian and mixolydian are equally represented with the natural major ionian. So that trick works out very neatly.

Springboarding off of that, though, you can also mess around with two options of handling chord changes with the pentatonic scale. One is to stay on the same pentatonic scale through all chord changes and the other is to play the pentatonic corresponding with the chord playing under you. So, if the progression is G - C - D - G, you could either a) play G major pentatonic through the entire progression, or b) play G major pentatonic, then C major pentatonic, then D major pentatonic, then back to G major pentatonic. It works very well because of the trick that @USMarine75 pointed out - the modality of each pentatonic is vague. But, if the chord changes come quickly, you might find that the latter approach doesn't leave enough time to develop melodic ideas; however over slow changes, you might find out that it works much nicer to change the scale to match the chord. Of course, if you have time, try both approaches and decide which you like best, or come up with your own entirely different approach.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 18, 2022)

I post this every time the subject of Modes comes up. Frank is THE MASTER of modes and I think this is the best video ever made about this subject. This made everything make sense to me and maybe it will help you.





bostjan said:


> Actually, there's no perfect 4th in the pentatonic major scale either. The pentatonic scales are perfectly colourless when it comes to the modes, that is to say that the minor pentatonic lacks the 2nd and 7th, so the phrygian and dorian are equally represented with the natural minor and the major pentatonic lacks the 4th and 7th, so the lydian and mixolydian are equally represented with the natural major ionian. So that trick works out very neatly.
> 
> Springboarding off of that, though, you can also mess around with two options of handling chord changes with the pentatonic scale. One is to stay on the same pentatonic scale through all chord changes and the other is to play the pentatonic corresponding with the chord playing under you. So, if the progression is G - C - D - G, you could either a) play G major pentatonic through the entire progression, or b) play G major pentatonic, then C major pentatonic, then D major pentatonic, then back to G major pentatonic. It works very well because of the trick that @USMarine75 pointed out - the modality of each pentatonic is vague. But, if the chord changes come quickly, you might find that the latter approach doesn't leave enough time to develop melodic ideas; however over slow changes, you might find out that it works much nicer to change the scale to match the chord. Of course, if you have time, try both approaches and decide which you like best, or come up with your own entirely different approach.



Good catch. Sorry I was trying to keep it as basic as possible and yeah I def misspoke lol. 

And yeah the age old question - whether to "play the changes" or choose a scale/mode that encompasses the entire progression.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 18, 2022)

vejichan said:


> man this is so confusing so let me try to process ok.. i get that if you change the chord the mode would change so for example on a classic - I, 4, 5, progression in C --C, F, G .. so lets say i have someone strumming the c chord for 4 bars, F chord for 4 bars and G chord for 4 bars and loop that i can play the c ionan mode over the c chord - focusing on the chord tones of C major chord (C, E, G notes) and F Lydian mode (F, G, A, B, C, D, E, F) - focusing on the chord tones of F major chord (F, A, C) and finally the G Mixolydian mode (G, A, B, C, D, E, F, G) - Focusing on the chord tones of G major chord (G, B, D). Please confirm if this is correct. This is just a starting point .. so what about in a minor progression?



I was talking about modal harmony (i.e. non-functional harmony) where you basically can change mode for every chord of the progression. I mistakenly thought you were asking your question in that context.

I guess you were talking about functional harmony, i.e. progressions where each chord has a function (for ex., ii V I).

In any case, what’s your end goal? Learn fingerings? Learn how to highlight chord extensions/chord tones in your soloing? Be conscious of the function of the notes you play in the modes you’re playing in? Learning what distinguishes modes (modal chords, etc.)?


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## vejichan (Jan 18, 2022)

Using this knowledge to give me more options to expand and develop the music i hear in my head


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 18, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Using this knowledge to give me more options to expand and develop the music i hear in my head



As far as translating sounds in your head to the guitar, did you try ear training?

As far as modes and harmony applied practically to lead playing, I suggest looking at the YT videos and lessons of Tom Quayle. This is assuming your goal is to be aware of your note choices and how they relate to chords you're playing over. See his modal and functional harmony tutorials.

There are also a bunch of YT videos and online courses on recognizing the characteristic sounds of each mode (for ex., Lydian's #4, Lydian chords like Maj7#11).

If you want to understand the basic definition of modes, then the Gambale video @USMarine75 posted is a great place to start.

Personally, I always try to learn these things with guitar in hand and with plenty of song examples (as opposed to a theoretical vaccum).


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## ElRay (Jan 18, 2022)

tedtan said:


> You don’t need to make it that difficult. You can just play C Major (aka, C Ionian) and emphasize the chord tones - the notes are the same in the modes you mention, the only difference is in how you emphasize them...


I think this can't be emphasized enough. There's a lot of Jazz players that visualize it like this.

The mode isn't really the notes you play, it's how the note you play relate to the perceivedthe tonal center. If you play C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C, and the tonal center is 'C', you're playing C-Major. If your bass player decides to mess with you, and starts droning on 'A', those same notes are now in A-minor. If they switch to a 'D' drone, now those same notes are now in D-Dorian.

Looking at it the other way (especially if you focus on patterns), is what leads guitarists to say stupid crap like: "I was playing G-Mixolydian over C". Sorry, you were playing C-Major. You just were using a pattern that you associate with G-Mixolydian.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 18, 2022)

ElRay said:


> The mode isn't really the notes you play, it's how the note you play relate to the perceivedthe tonal center.



Exactly.

After being able to recognize that, I’d try to see how the same set of notes sound different depending on the choice of that tonal center.

As suggested, just play the notes of C major over an A drone (A Minor mode), then over a D drone (D Dorian mode).

Find out what makes A minor sound different from D Dorian in the example, i.e. actually hearing the difference and knowing why.

You’ll start to get a better understanding of what makes each mode unique, getting you closer to your goal of associating sounds in your head to actual theory concepts you can reuse while composing, depending on the mood you want to evoke.


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

you lost me. i am so confused...


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

the topic is "newbie needs help with theory/modes" meaning you will have to approach this with the assumption that i'm a 5 year old with absolutely no experience with guitar/music etc.


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## ElRay (Jan 19, 2022)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> ... As suggested, just play the notes of C major over an A drone (A Minor mode), then over a D drone (D Dorian mode).
> 
> Find out what makes A minor sound different from D Dorian in the example, i.e. actually hearing the difference and knowing why...


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> the topic is "newbie needs help with theory/modes" meaning you will have to approach this with the assumption that i'm a 5 year old with absolutely no experience with guitar/music etc.



With such a wide topic, I’d recommend a book like this (no joke, it’s a good book to start).

https://www.amazon.ca/Guitar-Theory...ocphy=1002661&hvtargid=pla-434746949482&psc=1


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## ElRay (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> you lost me. i am so confused...


I'm not sure who's comment this is directed at, but I'll give an ELI5 shot:

I'm assuming you understand:
The basics of a "standard", aka Major, 8-note scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
This is your Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do scale
In one octave (e.g. from one 'C' to the next higher/lower 'C'), there are 12 equal "1/2 Steps"

The major scale has the whole-step/half-step pattern: W–W–H–W–W–W–H
Migrating this pattern to other "starting" notes, gives you a major scale in other keys
That "starting" note is the tonal center, aka tonic. 
Some folks will call it the 'root', but technically, 'root' notes only apply to chords.

For example, to play a major scale in G, the notes become: G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. This is necessary to keep the W–W–H–W–W–W–H pattern
As you change the starting note, you'll add/remove flats or sharps to keep the W–W–H–W–W–W–H pattern
D-Major has 2 sharps
Bb-Major has two flats
etc.

No matter the "starting" note, it remains a Do-Re-Mi-Fa-So-La-Ti-Do scale

Keeping the same "starting" note, but rotating the W–W–H–W–W–W–H pattern gives you different modes
The Dorian mode is going to have the interval pattern: W–H–W–W–W–H-W
Instead of "starting" on 'Do', you're starting on 'Re'

The Aeolian mode is going to have the interval pattern: W–H–W–W–H–W–W
Instead of "starting" on 'Do', you're starting on 'La'
This mode is all called 'Minor'

The space between Do & Re is still a whole step, the space between Mi & Fa is still a half-step, etc.

Where it gets confusing is when you change both the tonic and the mode
If you switch the tonic to 'D' *AND* switch to mode to Dorian, you're both changing the starting point, and rotating the interval pattern
The result is that the note names match the notes names in a C-Major Scale: D-E-F-G-A-B-C-D

If you switch the tonic to 'A' *AND* switch to mode to Aeolian, you're both changing the starting point, and rotating the interval pattern
The result is that the note names match the notes names in a C-Major Scale: A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A

It's like moving the hands on a clock from 4:00 to 6:10 and then rotating the clock so the 2 is at the top
The time is different, but the hands are in the same positions


Since C-Ionian (Major), D-Dorian, E-Phygrian, F-Lydian, G-Mixolydian, A-Aeolian (Minor), B-Locrian all contain the same named notes (A-B-C-D-E-F-G) you can't tell the context without knowing the tonal-center/tonic
Playing the notes: A-B-C-D-E-F-G in the context of an 'C' tonic, gives you the C-Ionian (Major) sound
Playing the notes: A-B-C-D-E-F-G in the context of an 'A' tonic, gives you the A-Aeolian (Minor) sound

Ditto for the other modes and their tonics
That's why @HungryGuitarStudent suggested to play the notes of a C-Major scale, using the fingering you normally would, over a C-Drone, then an A-drone, then a D-Drone, etc.
This separates the mechanics of playing the notes from the real lesson, which is hearing the difference between the modes


Then, to throw the mechanics of playing back into it:
A lot of "rock" guitarists like to play in one position across the neck, so they'll memorize fingering patterns for the different modes, but lose the fact that the modes aren't fingering patterns, but the intervallic relationship between the tonic and the whole-step/half-step relationship between the notes
On the other hand, a lot of "jazz" guitarists will memorize/play the fingering pattern for a major scale, but shift vertically/horizontally to play modally
For example, If they want to play in the Dorian mode, they'll play the major scale 2 half-steps below the tonic/root (e.g. C-Major for D-Dorian)
Likewise, they'll shift up 3 half-steps or down 9 half-steps to play in Aeolian (Minor) mode (e.g. C-Major for A-Aeolian (Minor))


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> With such a wide topic, I’d recommend a book like this (no joke, it’s a good book to start).
> 
> https://www.amazon.ca/Guitar-Theory...ocphy=1002661&hvtargid=pla-434746949482&psc=1



Thank you but with the resources like youtube/groups and forums i dont believe or let me correct that Want to invest any money in this. My parents literally wasted 3 years in guitar lessons that was i believe 200$ a week for 3 years?????? for me when i was a kid. it would have been cheaper just getting me a few books, which would have collected dust anyway. I didnt take anything away. the teachers taught me some excercises and riffs etc.. i was bored and dreaded those lessons, i eventually quit. I just started picking it up during lockdown a year ago.. All i did was made things up with absolutely no clue to what i was doing and Bam i made an album here.. https://davidcho.bandcamp.com/releases. Right now i'm fine with just taking bits and pieces here and there and hopefully this will help me expand/develop and create options for my songwriting/music.


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

thank you but this is just confused me more 


ElRay said:


> I'm not sure who's comment this is directed at, but I'll give an ELI5 shot:
> 
> I'm assuming you understand:
> The basics of a "standard", aka Major, 8-note scale: C-D-E-F-G-A-B-C
> ...


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## ElRay (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> thank you but this is just confused me more


Sorry. It was one of those things that was confusing, until it just "clicked".

Maybe the Charts on the Wikipedia page might help? Ignore the introduction/history and jump down to Modern Modes section.

This is another video that might help: 
Demonstrating All 7 Modes in Parallel [MODAL MUSIC THEORY] - Signals Music Studio​


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

For anybody like me who just wants clear explaination to theory and how to apply it to music etc. I have gone thru alot of youtube videos.. there are tons.. but i'm learning and rewatching alot from this guy's videos below and though its still confusing to me , some stuff is starting to make sense. just keep rewatching until it sinks in.

https://www.youtube.com/c/SignalsMusicStudio/videos


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## michael_bolton (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> For anybody like me who just wants clear explaination to theory and how to apply it to music etc....



srs question. what are you trying to get out of this theory exploration exercise ?


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## bostjan (Jan 19, 2022)

If you want to transcribe what you hear in your head into what you hear out of your guitar, using theory to do it might be the least direct way.

The most direct way to do it would be to hunt and peck on your fretboard until it sounds right.

A good compromise would be to do some ear training and get proficient at knowing what things you do with your guitar sound like what noises you hear from the guitar.

This might sound crazy, but there are websites and vst plugins that you can hum into a recording and they can tell you what notes you are humming. Then you can export the transcription to a midi file and load in into a tablature program and it will give you a very rough tab of what to play, then spend a half-hour or so smoothing out the edges of that and you should have your idea converted into tab in about an hour.

If you want a softer skill you can apply more quickly, definitely work on ear training.


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

michael_bolton said:


> srs question. what are you trying to get out of this theory exploration exercise ?



learning bits and pieces to develop/enhance/explore options i can use for making music that i hear in my head.


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

bostjan said:


> If you want to transcribe what you hear in your head into what you hear out of your guitar, using theory to do it might be the least direct way.
> 
> The most direct way to do it would be to hunt and peck on your fretboard until it sounds right.
> 
> ...



my ears are the worse than my guitar playing. but i will take a look and watch some youtube videos on ear training. Thanks.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 19, 2022)

Ear training:

I thought the ear training suggestion was made a while ago. Anyhow…

Theory:



vejichan said:


> For anybody like me who just wants clear explaination to theory and how to apply it to music etc. I have gone thru alot of youtube videos.. there are tons.. but i'm learning and rewatching alot from this guy's videos below and though its still confusing to me , some stuff is starting to make sense. just keep rewatching until it sinks in.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/c/SignalsMusicStudio/videos



It’s a 30$ investment.

You could cover the following topics (in order) through YT videos and Google searches until you find an explanation you understand.

Whole and half steps
Intervals
Major scale (formula involving steps)
Triads
Harmonizing the major scale (I ii iii IV V vi vii)
Modes
Functional harmony
Modal progressions
…


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## michael_bolton (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> learning bits and pieces to develop/enhance/explore options i can use for making music that i hear in my head.



"ear-finger" coordination required for this ^^ comes with time/practice as your brain gets familiar with patterns/intervals on the fretboard. 

From purely "theoretical" perspective I'd start with interval training - literally pick a root note and then go root-m2, root-2 etc etc. Play those notes together, play them separately, play them in succession from m2 to octave, play random intervals, move around to diff roots etc etc. 
If you don't know what e.g. m2 or m6 intervals are - then that's your starting point right there. 

Bonus point here is when/if you get to scale/chord building and you see a formula like 1-m3-5 - you'll know how to play it.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 19, 2022)

@michael_bolton exactly.

@vejichan

Basic intervals lesson:



After watching that, my suggestion would be to go to Tom Quayle’s YouTube channel.

Intervals are the building blocks for all your other theory knowledge (and your fretboard visualization if you choose to go that route).

That’s why I suggested (eventually) learning modes via their “intervalic formulas”. That’s for later…

Once you understand intervals, everything is easy to learn.


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

i dont get it.. sorry but this is just too confusing.. unfortunately i am looking at all this from a standpoint of "how can i use/apply" in my music not necessary how can i improve my technique or shred.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> i dont get it.. sorry but this is just too confusing.. unfortunately i am looking at all this from a standpoint of "how can i use/apply" in my music not necessary how can i improve my technique or shred.



No one is talking about technique here.


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## tedtan (Jan 19, 2022)

It sounds like you would really benefit from learning the sound of the intervals and how they lay out in the fretboard. This will take you a lot further than you realize.

That video HungryGuitarStudent posted should help get you started with this.


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## vejichan (Jan 19, 2022)

i dont understand. sorry dont know how this will help me w/my music. I thought a little bit of theory would but this is going in a different direction.. feels almost like trying to learn how to play soccer but someone tells you to learn how to play tennis 1st.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 19, 2022)

vejichan said:


> i dont understand. sorry dont know how this will help me w/my music. I thought a little bit of theory would but this is going in a different direction.. feels almost like trying to learn how to play soccer but someone tells you to learn how to play tennis 1st.



All of Western music theory is based on intervals.

Knowing how they sound and how to see them on your fretboard is probably the most direct path to your goal of learning theory in a practical manner.


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## tedtan (Jan 19, 2022)

All melodies and harmonies are made of intervals, so it’s a key fundamental to learn intervals. From there, you can put them into various combinations to make different scales, modes, chords, etc.


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## Winspear (Jan 20, 2022)

I haven't read the whole thread, but indeed it's correct, intervals are the priority and the key to everything.
Your first post is very good - Because you do clearly know the concept at play here. I will elaborate:

You said;

D Mixolydian Mode is G major scale starting on D (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C,D)
If someone was strumming a D major Chord - I can use D mixolydian mode to solo over that
I can use D ionian mode, D lydian mode, D Mixolydian mode to solo over someone strumming a D major Chord
I can use D Dorian, D Phrygian mode, D Aeolian mode to solo over someone strumming a D minor Chord
Which is all correct. The major scale is written as 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - meaning it contains a major second, major third, perfect fourth, perfect fifth, major sixth, and major seventh interval set. The stock reference point.

If someone strums a D major chord, the 1, 3, and 5 are present. Therefore, as you identified, you can play any scale that contains a 1 3 and 5 and it will sound fine. Be it D ionian (1 2 3 4 5 6 7) , D lydian (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7), etc...In this case the #4 is the standout interval of Lydian, the one that will give the lick you play over the bar of D major a _Lydian sound_.

Similarly, if someone plays a D minor chord, we have a b3 instead of a 3 present. So you can play any scale containing a b3 and 5. Like Aoelian (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7), harmonic minor (1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7)..the raised natural 7 being the 'harmonic minor' sound, in this case. or D phrygian, 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7, where the b2 makes the phrygian sound.

So at any moment in music we are referencing the present intervals against the tonic to decide how things sound. An E sounds happy in the context of C because it is a major third (3), a Gb sounds dark because it is a diminished fifth (b5), and so on.

Get comfortable with intervals as the reason for how things sound how they sound, and a reference point to view all theoretical concepts, and to help you navigate. You know scale box shapes? Just shapes, without the thought of note names. That shape is an intervallic pattern - the shape making the sound, moveable to any position, any tonic 1, at which point the interval pattern (presence of a b3, or 3, etc), dictates the other note names present.

In semitones, intervals in reference to the major scale
0 - Tonic, 1
1 - Minor second, b2
2 - Major second, 2
3 - Minor third, b3
4 - Major third, 3
5 - Perfect fourth, 4
6 - Diminished fifth , b5 / Augmented fourth, #4)
7 - Perfect fifth, 5
8 - Minor sixth, b6
9 - Major sixth, 6
10 - Minor seventh, b7
11 - Major seventh, 7
12 - Octave, 8 / 1


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## vejichan (Jan 21, 2022)

sorry but i just don't get it. Again, if the explaination isnt clear and easy for a 5 year old to understand.. i'm not going to either. Thanks for the effort. 
I will stick with the concept i put up since it's what i can understand so far.


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## vejichan (Jan 21, 2022)

again-- the words intervals and semitones and sixth major 7th etc doesnt mean anything because i dont know what they are and what they do/how i can use that. 

Its like having a new word but not knowing the meaning and how to use it in a sentence. hence its just a word that's forgettable and will not be used.


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## Winspear (Jan 21, 2022)

vejichan said:


> again-- the words intervals and semitones and sixth major 7th etc doesnt mean anything because i dont know what they are and what they do/how i can use that.



I listed their sizes in semitones for you, that's really all the information - it's a measurement of semitones from the root and used to construct scales and chords, the numbers referring to the position in the scale  The major scale is 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, the minor scale/aoelian is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Harmonic minor has a 7 instead of a b7 at the end.

The concept you put up comes from this - a major chord has 1 3 5 so you can use a scale that contains 3 and 5 (not b3, not b5, etc). A minor chord has b3 and 5 so you use scales with a b3 and avoid ones with a 3. Try and apply this to your original post


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## bostjan (Jan 21, 2022)

Start with the c major scale:

C D E F G A B

Every time you go up two frets, call it a "whole step," and if you go up one fret, call it a "half step."

C to D is 2 frets, so it's a "whole step." Same with D to E, but E to F is only one fret, so that's a "half step."

Work it out for yourself, but, the sequence of steps should be whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half. That last half step is to take you back to C from B. For short, WWhWWWh

That's the sequence for not just C major scale, but for every major scale.

G major scale is WWhWWWh starting on G and going GABCDEF#. F#, because we need to go a whole step up from E and then a half step up back to G.

A major scale is WWhWWWh, starting on A.

All of the major scales go up WWhWWWh, no matter what note they start on.

Likewise, when we talk about "intervals," we are talking about each note you stop on through the scale. The first note of the scale is the note that the scale is named after. We call that note the root note. After the root note, the second note in the scale is called the "second," the third note in the scale is called the "third," and, well, I think you get the idea.

So, in C major scale, we start on C, which is the root note, and then go up to the second note, or "second," by increasing a whole step, or two frets up, to D. So, we would say that, in the key of C major, D is the "second." 

In more general terms, when we talk about notes (or intervals) in the key of C, we would refer to D as "the major second," being the second note of the major scale.

Thinking about the root note and then the number of half or whole steps up from that this way is called "intervals." But it's much more efficient for communicating and for thinking about it than being verbose.

For example: In the key of C, A is the major sixth - is much easier than saying "A is the sixth note out of the C major scale."

This is especially useful when naming chords.

For example Cmaj7 is the chord that is C major with the 7th note of the major scale added onto it (which is B).

It's also very useful for playing scales, since the scales all follow a pattern. If you get the major scale memorized, you can easily refer to it as the basis for any other scale.

For example, if I say that the Byzantine scale is 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7, and you know the major scale by heart, you know that you need to play the second note of the scale one fret lower, the third note of the scale the same, the fourth note of the scale the same, the fifth note the same, the sixth note of the scale one fret lower and then the seventh note the same.

It is much easier to say 1 b2 3 #4 5 b6 7 than it is to memorize twelve different versions of the Byzantine scale (one for each key) by their letter values.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 21, 2022)

vejichan said:


> again-- the words intervals and semitones and sixth major 7th etc doesnt mean anything because i dont know what they are ...



I mean it's not like this is some secret info lol. But here it is - interval is distance between 2 notes. you good on that now? play a note on the 3rd fret of the 5th string and then another on the 4th fret. they are one fret apart. yes?


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## USMarine75 (Jan 21, 2022)

No offense but:

a) you seem to be fighting with everyone that is trying to genuinely give you free help;

b) you’re going to have to actually put in a lot of work here. You seem to think someone is going to post something and you’re going to magically unlock music theory. 

Did you watch the Frank Gambale vid I posted? Did you watch the others? If you haven’t done that then you’re really not trying here. That Gambale vid unlocked the basics for me and I had very little music theory knowledge prior to watching it.


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## ElRay (Jan 21, 2022)

vejichan said:


> ... https://www.youtube.com/c/SignalsMusicStudio/videos


If Jake Lizzio from Signals Music Studio works well for you, this video: 
*RELATIVE MODES - How C Major and A Minor are Same but Different [MODES - MUSIC THEORY]*​might work well for you. I think the background track is a little complex, but if you listen well, it might be enough to make things click.


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## tedtan (Jan 21, 2022)

vejichan said:


> sorry but i just don't get it. Again, if the explaination isnt clear and easy for a 5 year old to understand.. i'm not going to either. Thanks for the effort.
> I will stick with the concept i put up since it's what i can understand so far.





vejichan said:


> again-- the words intervals and semitones and sixth major 7th etc doesnt mean anything because i dont know what they are and what they do/how i can use that.
> 
> Its like having a new word but not knowing the meaning and how to use it in a sentence. hence its just a word that's forgettable and will not be used.



An interval is the distance between two notes. So in your C Major scale example, C to D is an interval of a whole step (also called a Major 2nd) which is two frets apart, D to E is another whole step, E to F is a half step (1 fret apart, also called a minor 2nd), F to G is a whole step, G to A is a whole step, A to B is a whole step, and finally, B back to C is a half step.

We can also look at these notes in relation to C, the tonic, and get the following intervals: C to D is a Major 2nd, C to E is a Major 3rd, C to F is a perfect 4th, C to G is a perfect 5th, C to A is a Major 6th, C to B is a Major 7th, and C to C is an octave (also written as 8ve).

I realize that this does not answer the question in the OP, but think of this with an analogy to language. You are asking about high school and university level grammar concepts and we are trying to point you back to the basic phonics (the sounds of the letters) as a fundamental step necessary before learning the grammar.

Also keep in mind that theory can be a pretty dense subject, especially when you consider the written notation, symbols, and special terminology used. As such, it’s not easily digestible, you’ll have to be proactive and put in the work to understand it.

A useful resource is musictheory.net.


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## vejichan (Jan 21, 2022)

Thanks everyone. Just when i thought i was getting somewhere with this theory stuff..i am again bombarded with info that i just cant comprehend or use. Anyway i will just stick with what i wrote since thats what i can understand for me.


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## vejichan (Jan 21, 2022)

I could buy a bunch of books or watch lot of youtube videos on theory and still be confused. Not everyone understand or gets theory etc...same as not everyone gets algebra or chemistry/physics..i did bad in those two subjects including music back in high school.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 21, 2022)




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## jaxadam (Jan 21, 2022)




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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 22, 2022)

vejichan said:


> I could buy a bunch of books or watch lot of youtube videos on theory and still be confused. Not everyone understand or gets theory etc...same as not everyone gets algebra or chemistry/physics..i did bad in those two subjects including music back in high school.



Ok, let me try the 5 year old explanation.

Do you know what a half step is ?
It’s a fret.

A whole step?
It’s two frets.

That’s not clear?
Pick up your guitar.
Then try the following.

Look at the biggest string on your guitar.

Look at the 1st and 3rd fret of that big string.

We say those two notes are separated by a single fret.

This is what we like to call a half step.

Do the same thing with fret 1 and fret 4.

These two notes are separated by two frets,
that is,
two half steps,
or what we like to call a whole step.

To sum up:

A space of 1 fret between two notes on a string is called a half step.

A space of 2 frets between two notes on a string is called a whole step.

Congratulations, you’ve just stepped into the marvellous world of intervals.

A world that will unlock all of music theory for you.

Was any of this not clear?
If so, what was unclear?

Part of learning is asking questions and making mistakes. If you don’t ask, we can’t help.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 22, 2022)

vejichan said:


> I could buy a bunch of books or watch lot of youtube videos on theory and still be confused. Not everyone understand or gets theory etc...same as not everyone gets algebra or chemistry/physics..i did bad in those two subjects including music back in high school.



I plugged this into Google Translate and it said this:

“I could do the work myself but I’m not good at that so I want you all to do the work for me. But then I’ll still complain when you do. And I’m never going to watch any of the videos you link. Nor am I going to try any of your suggestions. I’m just going to post that I don’t get it. But jokes on you because I never even read your posts!”


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## vejichan (Jan 22, 2022)

Thanks but how do i use and apply this



HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Ok, let me try the 5 year old explanation.
> 
> Do you know what a half step is ?
> It’s a fret.
> ...


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## jaxadam (Jan 22, 2022)

USMarine75 said:


> I plugged this into Google Translate and it said this:
> 
> “I could do the work myself but I’m not good at that so I want you all to do the work for me. But then I’ll still complain when you do. And I’m never going to watch any of the videos you link. Nor am I going to try any of your suggestions. I’m just going to post that I don’t get it. But jokes on you because I never even read your posts!”



No safe translations


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 22, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks but how do i use and apply this



Now that you know what a half step (H) and whole step (W) is, here’s the formula to construct a major scale.

Pick a string and a fret. For example 6th string 3rd fret (the note G). That note (G) is what we’ll call the scale’s root note.

Starting from this root note, move along the fretboard on that string by applying the following sequence of half and whole steps.

W W H W W W H.

Do it on your guitar.

For our example, that would give the following sequence of frets.

3 -> 5 -> 7 -> 8 -> 10 -> 12 -> 14 -> 15

Is that clear ?

If so, then we’ll move on to the next topic. We’ll move closer and closer to your goal, on step at a time.

You’re now up for the video about intervals I posted before.

Then read all our posts…

You can’t instantly learn to apply theory, you gotta put time and effort.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 23, 2022)

An interval is the « distance » between two pitches.

Each interval type has a name.

A 2nd = one step above the root

A 3rd = two whole steps above the root

A 4th = two and a half whole steps above root

A 5th = three and a half whole steps above root

A 6th = four and a half step above root 

A 7th = five and half step above root

In intervals, the major scale formula becomes 1234567.

Im done. Good luck.


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## vejichan (Jan 23, 2022)

Thanks but the way i learned is via scale shapes...i know for example the c major scale up and down the neck with 3 notes per string patterns...the modes would be c major starting with c , d , e , f , g , a ,b,c and next would be d dorian , d, e , f,g,a,b,c,d etc...so i should relearn all this in terms of steps/intervals? I know the "music" in terms of the alphabet c, d , e, f , g,a, b, c and not numbers, 1 234567...What i am saying is how will this info help me...i dont see or understand the application yet. Thanks.


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## Winspear (Jan 23, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks but the way i learned is via scale shapes...i know for example the c major scale up and down the neck with 3 notes per string patterns...the modes would be c major starting with c , d , e , f , g , a ,b,c and next would be d dorian , d, e , f,g,a,b,c,d etc...so i should relearn all this in terms of steps/intervals? I know the "music" in terms of the alphabet c, d , e, f , g,a, b, c and not numbers, 1 234567...What i am saying is how will this info help me...i dont see or understand the application yet. Thanks.



Shapes ARE interval patterns.
Note letters (CDE..) are not the shapes. They are what you get when you position the shape at a certain place and see what note pitches it contains, but they aren't the shape or sound of the music (in other words, music sounds 'the same' regardless of what key it is played in).

If you know the shape of the major scale, you can play it in all 12 keys, without knowing or thinking about exactly which notes in contains in each key. It's just a shape, started at one of 12 roots.







The triangles in this image mean Major or can just be ignored.
So along one string from one note chromatically is Root, 1. b2, 2, b3, 3, 4, b5, 5, b6, 6, b7, 7, Octave. The list of chromatic intervals I detailed in a previous comment.
Overlay the major scale shape you know onto this image, you'll see the major scale is played with the selection R(1) 2 3 4 5 6 7. A 4th is the same fret, up a string - the fourth note of the major scale shape. A fifth is the 5th note of the major scale shape, up a string and up two frets - a powerchord shape.

The application is, that nothing about music can be understood without understanding intervals, as they are how everything is made and described, and why things sound how they sound. A major chord sounds major because it has a 3 and not a b3 (minor chord).


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## vejichan (Jan 23, 2022)

thanks ..i like to know how intervals etc fits in with my understanding below

Below will change depending on the key, so let's say you are in Key of D

- D major (ionian mode)scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
- D minor (Aeolian mode) Scale (Key of F)- D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
- D major Chord - D, F#, A
- D Minor Chord - D, F, A

So basically i am studying the above info in every key and where they are up and down the Fingerboard/neck.. so for me the mode if its the key of D is D ionan, E dorian, F# phrygian, G lydian, A mixolydian, B Aeolian, C# locrian - each of those respective modes will have F# and C# . Again will change depending on the key.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 23, 2022)

@vejichan :

Scale shapes are good when you do fast runs, but if you're trying to understand theory, they're of little use IMO.

Here's how intervals fit in with what you're asking.

*About chords...
*
Remember 1 is the root.

In our example, 1 is the note D.

Simplest chord is a triad: 3 notes.

D Major triad: 1 3 5
D Minor triad: 1 b3 5
D Diminished triad: 1 b3 b5

*About modes...*

Major modes

D Major Scale in intervals (Ionian): 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
D Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

Minor modes

D Dorian: 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7
D Minor: 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
D Phrygian: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7
D Locrian: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

*EXERCISE:*

Pick a mode.

Say you pick D Phrygian.

Pick up your guitar.

Let's start to explore what makes this mode sound special.

Head over to Youtube and seach: "D minor chord drone track".

Play the notes of D Phrygian over that track.

Pay specific attention to the intervals you're playing.

You'll notice that some intervals in the Phrygian formula give it a special sound (b2 for example).

Do the same thing, with D dorian.

You'll notice it doesn't sound the same as D Phrygian.

Notice that D Phrygian and D Dorian have different interval formulas?

Dorian has a 6 while Phrygian has a b2 and b6.

Play these notes over the backing track.

The different intervals are what give these modes their different sounds.

Are you starting to understand why knowing intervals makes you better understand what makes each mode special ??

Do that for all the modes, playing your guitar with a Youtube backing track.

Put in the effort to actually do this practical exploration exercise.

Do that for a week, improvising on the track for each mode (pick D major backing track for major modes).

Do this and focus on which intervals you're playing and how they sound.

Do that for at least a week. Then come back with questions.

I'm sure other SSO will be able to answer your questions.


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## vejichan (Jan 23, 2022)

Thanks for the detailed explanation
But look below


D Major Scale in intervals (Ionian): 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
D Lydian: 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
D Mixolydian: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7


U still need to know that there is c# and f# in d major scale. So if i go with numbers d major scale would just be d e f g a b c d

Same with d lydian... i just think of that as key of a starting with d ...d e f# g# a b c# d

D mixolydian is key of g starting with d e f# g a b c d

For me its like an extra step..


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 23, 2022)

You need to know where is the note of the root (D) and the intervals around it, that's it.

In particular, you don't need to know the note names corresponding to those intervals.

It's not an extra step. Anyhow, re-read and think about it.

If it's not clear, head over to Tom Quayle's YT channel.


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## bassisace (Jan 23, 2022)

@vejichan If you want to learn music theory you have to learn intervals.

There’s no way around it.

What happens if you use your approach and change root note?? For example going from D major to F major??

Guess what?

The interval formulas stay the same whatever the choice of root note.

You just need to look at the Fs on your fretboard instead of the Ds.

Then you visualize intervals around the root note and apply the formula of the mode you wanna play.

No more counting sharps and flats, searching for the parent major scale, etc etc

Much more efficient than what you’re currently doing.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

Gotcha...starting to get it maybe...

Gonna train my brain and try to learn intervals and whole steps and half steps for the modes...but here are my questions


1) for major scale or ionian mode its wwhwwwh, this is helpful because you can use this info for any key. Especially when u are playing a major scale on one string...is there any advice on using this info for playing the major scale vertically..across all strings.

2) how can i better understand intervals when for example i learned or understand music via alphabet rather than numbers ..how can i connect the two information .for example

C major scale is 1234567 vs cdefgabc

C minor scale 1 2 b3 3 5 b6 b7 vs c d eb f g Ab Bb

C major chord is 135 vs ceg

C minor chord is 1 b3 5 vs c eb g


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## USMarine75 (Jan 24, 2022)

People keep posting helpful content, with different ways of explaining the same thing, and he’s still asking the same question. 

Why won’t you all just give in and admit he’s right.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> thanks ..i like to know how intervals etc fits in with my understanding below
> ....
> - D Minor Chord - D, F, A



ok good. now that you know what the intervals are - here's a question - these notes -DFA of the Dm chord - how do you know that these exact notes comprise that chord?


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

michael_bolton said:


> ok good. now that you know what the intervals are - here's a question - these notes -DFA of the Dm chord - how do you know that these exact notes comprise that chord?



how do i know? 1 3 5 - root, 3 and 5 makes a major chord and 1 b3 5 - root, b 3 and 5 makes a minor chord... sorry not understanding what is it you are asking?


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

To the kind fellow below that keeps responding....Please just put me on ignore- you can choose to help or just move on and participate in the millions of other posts thats in this forum.



FYI,
1- I don't know anybody in real life thats a musician or plays this type of music.
2- I have a family/kids and work and barely enough time to make music/play guitar.
3- I don't know anybody in real life that can answer my questions in regard to guitar/music- my family/my kids/ my friends/ my co workers just don't care.
4- Guitar/making music is my hobby and my creative outlet- my need to improve and progress is for me. My music sucks but it's for me. People need alcohol or coffee or go out with friends to a bar to get thru the day and relieve stress. For me, i need to make music and translate the sound i hear in my head.

I play guitar and make my own music- which is why i am asking all these "relevant" questions. I join these groups/forums to perhaps find ways to improve my playing/music. Thank you but again do yourself a favor and just put me on ignore. Take care and be safe.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> how do i know? 1 3 5 - root, 3 and 5 makes a major chord and 1 b3 5 - root, b 3 and 5 makes a minor chord... sorry not understanding what is it you are asking?



That is correct. So now you're just looking at semantics. In your formula - 1-b3 is an m3 interval, 1-5 is p5, 3-5 is M3 which makes your Dm look like m3+M3. 
So you have 3 intervals to work with from the practical standpoint. Play those intervals up and down the neck, invert them by placing 3d and 5th below 1, play those inverted shapes all over etc. 

Your original question was along the lines of how to use theory in a practical manner to express "music in your head" on the fretboard. IMO, doing this sort of interval work gets your brain wired for that.
Instead of just a mental picture of how to find an M7 using a scale - you have a "shape" of how that looks like in diff inversions and how it sounds like in the process. 
We all do that with power chords. Many (most?) ppl out there playing them don't realize or care that it's a p5 but have a very clear picture of how that would sound.

As a side note - once you start looking at the intervallic structure of things it opens up all kinds of "practical" knowledge - super simple facts that minor triad is m3+M3 and major is M3+m3 or that inverted power chord looks like a 4th from the string below root can lead to some very concrete practical applications.


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

I'm going to regret jumping back into one of these threads, but I feel like the answer to the ultimate question here is still just to practice. And putting in the time includes things like watching the videos and reading the links that people provide, if there's an insistence on asking for more information. That's not to say you have to memorize all the facts and details, but if you immerse yourself in it then it will make sense over time. Again: key word is time. Practice. Immersion. Persistence. Patience.

I mean, what is the goal, precisely? It was stated as wanting to play the music that's in your head.

You don't need all the theory and notation to do that. I mean, I don't "know" the theory, but I understand what's going on when I pick up my instruments because I've practised enough for it to be intuitive - which is practice you will _still_ need to do even if you knew all the theory.

I mean lets say you're playing your guitar and you start playing a random bar chord and think of this as your root - then you move up two frets. Ok, you know what that sounds like and makes you feel because you're doing it right now - experience tells you that if you want to transition from that to a generic moody negative minor sounding tension-added thing, you go one more fret, and if you want a positive uplifting tension-release thing, you go two frets instead. I can't tell you why that happens from a theory standpoint (major vs. minor third I think?), and I don't know the names of the intervals and modes and junk without sitting down and thinking about it, but the time spent with the instrument gives you the intuition it takes to let your interaction with the instrument do the work for you.

You can't go immediately from "I don't know what an interval is" to "how do I apply scales and modes". It's like getting in a car, asking someone to show you where the gas pedal is, then your next question is "great, now how do I win races?"

It's music. You can do whatever you want with it. The theory is only going to give you a certain set of tools that you can _choose_ to apply _or not_. There aren't rules or formulas to making music, especially if it's already in your head. Transposing what's in your head to the instrument is something only you can do, with time and practice.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

sorry but are you agreeing that my music sucks?




TedEH said:


> I'm going to regret jumping back into one of these threads, but I feel like the answer to the ultimate question here is still just to practice. And putting in the time includes things like watching the videos and reading the links that people provide, if there's an insistence on asking for more information. That's not to say you have to memorize all the facts and details, but if you immerse yourself in it then it will make sense over time. Again: key word is time. Practice. Immersion. Persistence. Patience.
> 
> I mean, what is the goal, precisely? It was stated as wanting to play the music that's in your head.
> 
> ...


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> sorry but are you agreeing that my music sucks?


Please don't do this again.

This started out as a nice thread about the foundational knowledge in music theory, and now it's turning into another pity party.

All people are saying is that if you are having trouble learning music theory because your family is cutting too much into your practice time, that no one here can help solve the problem for you, since it simply boils down to time management.

None of this music theory stuff in necessary to sound good. If you want to learn it, set aside the time to learn it; if not, don't. If you'd rather spend your time recording your music and then posting it here and insisting everyone here hates it, whether it gets praised or not, then whatever, as long as it floats your boat, I guess - but it's going to piss everyone off, and eventually will probably get you banned if site admin ever gets sick of people complaining about it.

It's times like this that I miss the eRep bars. Newcomers to this thread might not have any idea that this guy posts half a dozen threads like this every year.


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

+1.
Please don't do this again.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

exactly!! every time i post on a question i have- i get flamers following me in to say " here he goes again with the stupid questions and warns everybody about me?"

for me, i just need info for my music. no time for arguing/all this BS. but if i'm getting insulted i need to defend myself. In all my posts i am asking a relevant question that i have that involves guitar/music production thats it. i dont come here talking about sports, fashion, food or the latest news. its strictly guitar gear and music production. Yes, i have learned alot and my music and guitar playing wouldnt be where it is at right now if it wasn't for the people in the group.. sucks i gotta go and read thru all the insult/flaming/slandering/verbal attacks to get to 1-2 helpful advice & suggestions. Good thing i can ignore people so i can cut down that BS by half. 



bostjan said:


> Please don't do this again.
> 
> This started out as a nice thread about the foundational knowledge in music theory, and now it's turning into another pity party.
> 
> ...


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

I didn't say it was a stupid question, and I didn't say anything about your music - I said that theory isn't the only available approach. And all of the previous advice given to you in all of the threads you've posted still applies: Practice is a big part of the process, and there are generally no shortcuts.


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## Winspear (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> sorry but are you agreeing that my music sucks?



What??? That was a perfectly good reply.
If you are going to keep asking questions and want to get anything out of them, you need to put in the work. Not just in terms of practice and research, but in communication. If there is a response you don't understand the theory behind, break it down. Reply to individual statements and topics, with questions - simple questions that we can answer simply, to hopefully succeed at unlocking the topic in your mind. It's not constructive to repeatedly reply to detailed answers with little more than "nope, don't get it, try again". These answers are already basic level so can't really be simplified further without actual back and forth discussion


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> sorry but are you agreeing that my music sucks?



Yes. 

[Just give him what he wants.]


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

TedEH said:


> I didn't say it was a stupid question, and I didn't say anything about your music - I said that theory isn't the only available approach. And all of the previous advice given to you in all of the threads you've posted still applies: Practice is a big part of the process, and there are generally no shortcuts.



you are assuming i dont practice, please re-read .. people have said that my playing/music has progressed in the past few years. why would i even be asking these questions if i didnt have any intention of learning/practicing it?


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Yes.




how this guy response slip out? i thought i had him on ignore .. ok back in the ignore box you go.


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

Sweet jebus, dude - it's not a personal judgement. Improvement = practice. If you're asking questions it's because you want to improve more. Improve more = practice more. It's as simple as that. If you feel that your playing has improved, then that's great - keep doing what's working for you.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> how this guy response slip out? i thought i had him on ignore .. ok back in the ignore box you go.









To be fair, you should put this whole Forum on ignore because we are tired of your nonsense.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

back to the topic- dont want to get sidetracked.

- intervals (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - how exactly is it connected to the whole step/half step? i'm still not clear so i know

the 1= the root/tonic? please explain - i must have missed the connection.


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## Winspear (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> back to the topic- dont want to get sidetracked.
> 
> - intervals (1,2,3,4,5,6,7) - how exactly is it connected to the whole step/half step? i'm still not clear so i know
> 
> the 1= the root/tonic? please explain - i must have missed the connection.



Yes 1 is root
See again my list of the 12 semitones in an octave:
0 - Tonic, 1
1 - Minor second, b2
2 - Major second, 2
3 - Minor third, b3
4 - Major third, 3
5 - Perfect fourth, 4
6 - Diminished fifth , b5 / Augmented fourth, #4)
7 - Perfect fifth, 5
8 - Minor sixth, b6
9 - Major sixth, 6
10 - Minor seventh, b7
11 - Major seventh, 7
12 - Octave, 8 / 1

If a major scale is WWHWWWH, then starting at 0 (or an open string, along the string), we get 0w2w4h5w7w9w11h12 (numbers are left column of chart) as our frets, or semitone distances from the tonic. As the major scale is the reference point for how the rest of things in theory are written, and the scale has 7 notes, we label these intervals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 as in the right column of the above chart. So if a major third , 3, is 4 semitones from the root, a b3, or minor third, is a lowering of that - 3 semitones from the root. And so on


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

It's admittedly always thrown me off that intervals are indexed started at 1, when you'd list fret numbers or semitones etc indexed at 0.


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> i dont come here talking about sports, fashion, food or the latest news. its strictly guitar gear and music production.



What about all those Gucci purses for your hot wife?


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> What about all those Gucci purses for your hot wife?



was it the topic? might have been sidetracked defending myself against another guy insulting me. fortunately i have put most of them on ignore. so we can stay on topic from now on


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

wait so major scale is 1234567 - and major chord 135 - 1 is minor second and not the tonic/root?



Winspear said:


> Yes 1 is root
> See again my list of the 12 semitones in an octave:
> 0 - Tonic, 1
> 1 - Minor second, b2
> ...


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> wait so major scale is 1234567 - and major chord 135 - 1 is minor second and not the tonic/root?



Because you are confusing notes in a scale with intervals. Look above like three posts.


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> 1 is minor second and not the tonic/root?


You're mixing up the numbers on the left (the notes of the octave) and the numbers on the right (the intervals in the scale).
When you say "major chord is 135", you're talking about the _intervals_. Those would line up with 047 on the left.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

TedEH said:


> You're mixing up the numbers on the left (the notes of the octave) and the numbers on the right (the intervals in the scale).
> When you say "major chord is 135", you're talking about the _intervals_. Those would line up with 047 on the left.
> 
> View attachment 102341



got cha. .but why not just 1= tonic instead of 0 - tonic, 1?


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## Winspear (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> got cha. .but why not just 1= tonic instead of 0 - tonic, 1?


Intervals are a measurement of the _gaps.
1 _is the_ first note_ of the major scale, so it is 0 away from itself.
_2 _is the second note of the major scale, which happens to also be 2 semitones away from the tonic.
3 is the third note of the major scale, which is 4 semitones away from the tonic.

If someone says "the fifth" of a note, it's the fifth note of the scale - a powerchord. But 7 semitones away from the root.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> got cha. .but why not just 1= tonic instead of 0 - tonic, 1?



12 notes.
7 in a scale.


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2022)

Scales start with 1.

The major scale is spelled 1234567

The major triad (chord) is spelled 135, because it's the root of the scale, third not of the scale, and fifth note of the scale.

If you play the major scale 1234567 in the key of C, you play C D E F G A B. If you play the major triad 1 3 5 in the key of C you play C E G.

Think of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 as ordinal numbers instead of cardinal numbers. That is, first second third, not one two three. That's how people generally say the scale degrees and intervals out loud, so it'd be awkward to start at 0 ("zeroth?").


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Scales start with 1.
> 
> The major scale is spelled 1234567
> 
> ...



Thank you.. gonna take awhile but i think i get it.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 24, 2022)

Scales starting on "1" is perfectly in line with how humans generally operate. Outside of computer-related stuff where indexing often starts with "0" you'd be hard pressed to find this sort of counting going on. 

You can't get away from this anyway, because even if scale degrees started with 0 - what if I asked you to build a chord from the 3rd degree of the scale?


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## USMarine75 (Jan 24, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> What about all those Gucci purses for your hot wife?



lol wut?



vejichan said:


> exactly!! every time i post on a question i have- i get flamers following me in to say " here he goes again with the stupid questions and warns everybody about me?"
> 
> for me, i just need info for my music. no time for arguing/all this BS. but if i'm getting insulted i need to defend myself. In all my posts i am asking a relevant question that i have that involves guitar/music production thats it. i dont come here talking about sports, fashion, food or the latest news. its strictly guitar gear and music production. Yes, i have learned alot and my music and guitar playing wouldnt be where it is at right now if it wasn't for the people in the group.. sucks i gotta go and read thru all the insult/flaming/slandering/verbal attacks to get to 1-2 helpful advice & suggestions. Good thing i can ignore people so i can cut down that BS by half.


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2022)

Totally OT, but with the username vejichan, I read it in my head as "veggie Chan," and can't help but picture a guy eating baby carrots or a head of cabbage while posting on imageboard forums. Somewhere out there there might be a user named "meatbooru" doing the same thing?


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

i lived and worked in Japan for 8 years. Grew up on Dragonball z. Favorite character was
Vejiita. Unfortunately. I dont have that kind of time.. i work 9-10hrs a day and spend the rest of my time with my beautiful wife and best kids. I might sneak in 10minutes to make music and play guitar before i sleep and its back to work the next day. Sorry to disappoint you.



bostjan said:


> Totally OT, but with the username vejichan, I read it in my head as "veggie Chan," and can't help but picture a guy eating baby carrots or a head of cabbage while posting on imageboard forums. Somewhere out there there might be a user named "meatbooru" doing the same thing?


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Vejichan..i lived and worked in Japan for 8 years. Grew up on Dragonball z. Favorite character was
> Vejiita. Unfortunately. I dont have that kind of time.. i work 9-10hrs a day and spend the rest of my time with my kids. I might sneak i. 10minute to make music and play guitar before i sleep and its back to work the next day. Sorry to disappoint you.


Veggie fajitas?! Now you're makin' me hungry, I'm just saiyan' you're krillin' me.

Maybe when your kids are a little older, you can get them into either music or Japanese cartoons.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> i work 9-10hrs a day and spend the rest of my time with my beautiful wife and best kids. I might sneak in 10minutes to make music and play guitar before i sleep and its back to work the next day. Sorry to disappoint you.



10 minutes a day is rough. I wouldn't worry about theory and just shred through as much stuff as I can physically handle, like 3 nps shapes up and down type deal.

no offense - for some reason I was picturing you as a teenager/early 20s dude, not a family man, maybe your style of writing or maybe whatever preconceived notions I might have or both


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

Unfortunately, my kids like disney music and playing videogames.



bostjan said:


> Veggie fajitas?! Now you're makin' me hungry, I'm just saiyan' you're krillin' me.
> 
> Maybe when your kids are a little older, you can get them into either music or Japanese cartoons.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

Did u listen to my music below..its too simple for these technically prog metal kids. I just write and make music that i hear in my head. I am an old dude..

https://davidcho.bandcamp.com/releases



michael_bolton said:


> 10 minutes a day is rough. I wouldn't worry about theory and just shred through as much stuff as I can physically handle, like 3 nps shapes up and down type deal.
> 
> no offense - for some reason I was picturing you as a teenager/early 20s dude, not a family man, maybe your style of writing or maybe whatever preconceived notions I might have or both


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

USMarine75 said:


> lol wut?



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...n-to-make-my-music.349667/page-4#post-5335119

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/a-song-of-gratitude-for-everyone-here.349551/page-3#post-5333853

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/great-sounding-wood-combos.349341/page-12#post-5327847

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/great-sounding-wood-combos.349341/page-10#post-5327466

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/great-sounding-wood-combos.349341/page-9#post-5327430

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/great-sounding-wood-combos.349341/page-2#post-5325199

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/need-advice-on-playing-mixing.279988/#post-4164992


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Unfortunately, my kids like disney music and playing videogames.


Disney's got some great songs, though. You could totally pick apart the Frozen soundtrack with a music theory hat on and there's tons of content there that easily translates into rock music songwriting.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Did u listen to my music below..its too simple for these technically prog metal kids. I just write and make music that i hear in my head. I am an old dude..
> 
> https://davidcho.bandcamp.com/releases



not my thing style wise per se, but defo much better than I expected based on your questions here. decent singing too.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

michael_bolton said:


> not my thing style wise per se, but defo much better than I expected based on your questions here. decent singing too.



My style and music is only for me...i dont think anybody likes my music.
I asked a friend to do all vocals..since i cant sing...but music/playing/mixing and recording etc is all me. There are 9 songs on my 1st album..let me know what cha think. Working on my 2nd album .


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> I asked a friend to do all vocals..since i cant sing...



We aren't friends. That was the best 22 dollars I ever made.


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## michael_bolton (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> I asked a friend to do all vocals..since i cant sing...but music/playing/mixing and recording etc is me. There are 9 songs on my 1st album..let me know what cha think. Working on my 2nd album .



I listened to a couple / skipped through a couple. There's defo a flow going on with build up/release, things are fitting together overall as opposed to being randomly pierced together, I can see that you actually "composed" these.

If I heard this on the radio - won't strike me as "dafuq is this" type deal, although I won't be listening to the whole thing either but again - not my style so there's that. Drums aren't great, you prolly know this.

Like you said - it is on a simplistic side of things, which in terms of some mega shredding don't think it's really expected with that style but something more technically advanced here and there won't hurt to keep things interesting. Not necessarily shred per se - e.g. you're using arpeggiated chords here and there - well throw in some upper extensions on them, maybe resolve via some sort of a cadence vs going straight back to the root etc etc.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 24, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...n-to-make-my-music.349667/page-4#post-5335119
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/a-song-of-gratitude-for-everyone-here.349551/page-3#post-5333853
> 
> ...



Thank you for this.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

USMarine75 said:


> Thank you for this.



It really is a list of beauty. His threads are better than his tunes.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

Thanks for taking the time to listen. Actually tbh, i wasnt even thinking of all those things you said..each song was just me hitting record and making something up. I dont know what i am doing so wasnt like i was thinking of this key, scale..more like translating the sound i was going after. Anyway its unique and a different style that many people dont like...which is ok since thats not my goal. I just want to create what i hear in my head and try to make it sound good to me. Sorry you had to go thru that torture of listening to my crappy music. I am really not very good ...mainly because i dont know how to play guitar or make and record music.



michael_bolton said:


> I listened to a couple / skipped through a couple. There's defo a flow going on with build up/release, things are fitting together overall as opposed to being randomly pierced together, I can see that you actually "composed" these.
> 
> If I heard this on the radio - won't strike me as "dafuq is this" type deal, although I won't be listening to the whole thing either but again - not my style so there's that. Drums aren't great, you prolly know this.
> 
> Like you said - it is on a simplistic side of things, which in terms of some mega shredding don't think it's really expected with that style but something more technically advanced here and there won't hurt to keep things interesting. Not necessarily shred per se - e.g. you're using arpeggiated chords here and there - well throw in some upper extensions on them, maybe resolve via some sort of a cadence vs going straight back to the root etc etc.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

Here are the highlights so far:

"my ears are the worse than my guitar playing"
"sorry but are you agreeing that my music sucks"
"i dont think anybody likes my music."
" Sorry you had to go thru that torture of listening to my crappy music. I am really not very good"


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks for taking the time to listen. Actually tbh, i wasnt even thinking of all those things you said..each song was just me hitting record and making something up. I dont know what i am doing so wasnt like i was thinking of this key, scale..more like translating the sound i was going after. Anyway its unique and a different style that many people dont like...which is ok since thats not my goal. I just want to create what i hear in my head and try to make it sound good to me. Sorry you had to go thru that torture of listening to my crappy music. I am really not very good ...mainly because i dont know how to play guitar or make and record music.



I mean there’s only one answer to your music sucking problems…. have me do the leads!


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> We aren't friends. That was the best 22 dollars I ever made.



Whats your problem? You didnt sing on my songs? Who paid you 22$ ? I havent spent a dime on my music..other than the gear.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Whats your problem? You didnt sing on my songs? Who paid you 22$ ? I havent spent a dime on my music..other than the gear.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


>



Whatever man. Just keep doing what you been doing. Hope all is well with you.


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Whats your problem? You didnt sing on my songs? Who paid you 22$ ? I havent spent a dime on my music..other than the gear.



Lucky you, I’ve spent thousands getting people to play and pretend it’s me, that’s why you never see their face.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

Always have people coming into my threads to derail the topic. There will always be people everywhere that just enjoy putting others down. Anyway for those who helped..thank you. I will take some time learning intervals.


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Always have people coming into my threads to derail the topic. There will always be people everywhere that just enjoy putting others down. Anyway for those who helped..thank you. I will take some time learning intervals.



They’re not “your” threads, they’re “our” threads. We’re all in this together!


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

@USMarine75 @ArtDecade @jaxadam

what's your problem? you guys don't contribute positively to my threads but just continue to insult me on every post i make. 

Yes i post about questions that i have about music production and guitar. Yes the suggestions and advice i have received helped. FYI, I almost never participate/respond or have any interest to jump on anybody's thread other than mine. Because i only read my own threads in this forum, i have no time to read/respond to other people's threads. 

I have stated this many times before, I know you won't stop because you probably enjoy putting people down but for the last time please kindly just ignore me. There are really many many posts that go up on this forum that you can participate in. What about finding something else to do than to insult somebody?Get a job, Spent time with your family, make music and play guitar. Thank you and stay safe.


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## SpaceDock (Jan 24, 2022)

I think some of these guys are mad because the music you think sucks and you are just making without any theory is so much better than anything they have farted out in 20+ years of shredding the same arpeggio


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> I think some of these guys are mad because the music you think sucks and you are just making without any theory is so much better than anything they have farted out in 20+ years of shredding the same arpeggio



No one says his music sucks more than he does.


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Get a job



Only if you're hiring!


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2022)

Can we not make these threads worse by bullying the guy? If he's trolling, then you're feeding the trolls and making the forum a worse place. And if he's not trolling, then you're just bullying someone who likely isn't equipped to internalize it in a healthy way.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2022)




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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 24, 2022)

@vejichan Do you have enough info to start practicing? If you're on a tight schedule, then why not spend less time here and more time with your guitar? (assuming you want to make it a priority)

Don't take this the wrong way, but cutting on other stuff is how I get practice time when I have busy work weeks.


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## vejichan (Jan 24, 2022)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> @vejichan Do you have enough info to start practicing? If you're on a tight schedule, then why not spend less time here and more time with your guitar? (assuming you want to make it a priority)
> 
> Don't take this the wrong way, but cutting on other stuff is how I get practice time when I have busy work weeks.



FYI, I almost never participate/respond or have any interest to jump on anybody's thread other than mine. Because i only read my own threads in this forum, i have no time to read/respond to other people's threads. also i do all this on my daily 1 hr and a half commute home on the train. Rather than listen to music, play games, watch movies on the train, i'm reading forums about theory/modes/ etc. So really i am only home to eat dinner/shower/sleep and read a book to my kids before they sleep. I go to work at 8am everyday and get home at 8pm. So that really doesnt allow alot of time for playing/recording music but i do have 3 hrs commute to and from work. so you already know what i do during those 3hrs when i am sitting on the train with my cell phone.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 24, 2022)

SpaceDock said:


> I think some of these guys are mad because the music you think sucks and you are just making without any theory is so much better than anything they have farted out in 20+ years of shredding the same arpeggio


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## USMarine75 (Jan 24, 2022)

vejichan said:


> @USMarine75 @ArtDecade @jaxadam
> 
> what's your problem? you guys don't contribute positively to my threads but just continue to insult me on every post i make.
> 
> ...



I know, I’m such an insufferable twat. Go back and reread the horrific things I deigned to post back on page one. 

Oh the huge manatee! Stay safe!


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

USMarine75 said:


> I know, I’m such an insufferable twat. Go back and reread the horrific things I deigned to post back on page one.
> 
> Oh the huge manatee! Stay safe!



Ironically you probably posted the most helpful thing in here. Anything Frank Gambale is the most helpful thing.


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## jaxadam (Jan 24, 2022)

USMarine75 said:


> I know, I’m such an insufferable twat. Go back and reread the horrific things I deigned to post back on page one.
> 
> Oh the huge manatee! Stay safe!



Ironically you probably posted the most helpful thing in here. Anything Frank Gambale is the most helpful thing.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 25, 2022)

^ So nice, said it twice.


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## fantom (Jan 27, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks but the way i learned is via scale shapes...i know for example the c major scale up and down the neck with 3 notes per string patterns...the modes would be c major starting with c , d , e , f , g , a ,b,c and next would be d dorian , d, e , f,g,a,b,c,d etc...so i should relearn all this in terms of steps/intervals? I know the "music" in terms of the alphabet c, d , e, f , g,a, b, c and not numbers, 1 234567...What i am saying is how will this info help me...i dont see or understand the application yet. Thanks.



If you tune your guitar down to D standard and play the same fingering as you would in E standard, are you relearning all the note names in D standard? Probably not. Most people understand that it will sound mostly the same, just tuned down.

So why learn all of the note names when you can just learn the intervals instead and apply it to any key signature and any tuning?



vejichan said:


> thanks ..i like to know how intervals etc fits in with my understanding below
> 
> Below will change depending on the key, so let's say you are in Key of D
> 
> ...



I think you messed up here.
D minor is D E F G A Bb C D.
D major is D E F# G A B C# D

It should be clear that difference between these two scales is 3 notes are 1 fret higher in D major.

Your view of how the modes relate is making things far more confusing. Do not compare G Mixolydian to D Ionian. Compare D Ionian to D Mixolydian. Just as you compare D minor to D major. The only difference in modes is how many notes are changing. In D Phrygian and D Dorian, 1 note changes from the minor scale. in D Lydian and Mixolydian, 1 note changes from the minor scale. The note that is changing is the thing you want to emphasize to make use of those modes.



vejichan said:


> Thanks for the detailed explanation
> But look below
> 
> 
> ...



No, you don't need to know C# or F# exist. That seems like a tedious way to memorize everything TBH. You need to know that your "basis" D. Find any D. Then use the patterns, aka intervals, that you already memorized starting from D. The difference is you need to change 1 note as you change modes. You don't need to know the name of that note..you need to know how far from the root it is, and how to change it.



vejichan said:


> exactly!! every time i post on a question i have- i get flamers following me in to say " here he goes again with the stupid questions and warns everybody about me?"
> 
> for me, i just need info for my music. no time for arguing/all this BS. but if i'm getting insulted i need to defend myself. In all my posts i am asking a relevant question that i have that involves guitar/music production thats it. i dont come here talking about sports, fashion, food or the latest news. its strictly guitar gear and music production. Yes, i have learned alot and my music and guitar playing wouldnt be where it is at right now if it wasn't for the people in the group.. sucks i gotta go and read thru all the insult/flaming/slandering/verbal attacks to get to 1-2 helpful advice & suggestions. Good thing i can ignore people so i can cut down that BS by half.



Honestly, I just started reading this thread. Your issue has been your attitude the entire time, not your questions. I see many people trying to help you, and you just keep getting defensive. You aren't asking stupid questions, you are refusing to try to understand the answers because you don't see how you can apply it. It's like watching Daniel-son bitch at Mr. Miyagi for being asked to paint the fence or wax the car.

The best advice I can give you is to try to play what you hear. This is the ear training thing. The better you get at being able to hear something and play it, the better musician you will become. Think of theory like learning semantics of a language. You can be an expert at the grammar, but if you can't talk to someone, I don't know what to tell you. Ear training is practicing conversations. It is probably as hard and rewarding as learning another language.



vejichan said:


> got cha. .but why not just 1= tonic instead of 0 - tonic, 1?



Fun fact, the number zero didn't exist (in the West) until far after the Roman empire. I think the Western world didn't have a notion of zero until the 13th century or so. People understood how to count things that exist, but, to them, there was no concept of owning zero things. People would just say they don't own anything. There was no practical reason to have a number for nothing.

Keeping in mind that intervals and the music scale were Greek origins over 2500 years ago, it is easy to understand why intervals didn't start from 0. They were a two thousand years too early to the party. Even if you compare them to the Babylonians, they were 5 or 6 centuries ahead of the first recorded use of zero as a number.


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## vejichan (Jan 29, 2022)

Whats wrong with what i said? Is it incorrect?

Below will change depending on the key, so let's say you are in Key of D

- D major (ionian mode)scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
- D minor (Aeolian mode) Scale (Key of F)- D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
- D major Chord - D, F#, A
- D Minor Chord - D, F, A




fantom said:


> If you tune your guitar down to D standard and play the same fingering as you would in E standard, are you relearning all the note names in D standard? Probably not. Most people understand that it will sound mostly the same, just tuned down.
> 
> So why learn all of the note names when you can just learn the intervals instead and apply it to any key signature and any tuning?
> 
> ...


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## vejichan (Jan 29, 2022)

Whats wrong with what i said below? Is it incorrect? Which part? 

Below will change depending on the key, so let's say you are in Key of D

- D major (ionian mode)scale - D, E, F#, G, A, B, C#, D
- D minor (Aeolian mode) Scale (Key of F)- D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D
- D major Chord - D, F#, A
- D Minor Chord - D, F, A




fantom said:


> If you tune your guitar down to D standard and play the same fingering as you would in E standard, are you relearning all the note names in D standard? Probably not. Most people understand that it will sound mostly the same, just tuned down.
> 
> So why learn all of the note names when you can just learn the intervals instead and apply it to any key signature and any tuning?
> 
> ...


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## bassisace (Jan 29, 2022)

@vejichan Dont take this the wrong way, but you’re spending so much time trying to debate why you shouldn’t learn intervals. That time could’ve been used to learn music theory concepts, like intervals.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 29, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Whats wrong with what i said below? Is it incorrect? Which part?
> 
> Below will change depending on the key, so let's say you are in Key of D
> 
> ...



D minor you listed is wrong. No F# and B is flatted.

D, E, F, G, A, B♭, C


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## fantom (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Whats wrong with what i said below? Is it incorrect? Which part?
> 
> Below will change depending on the key, so let's say you are in Key of D
> 
> ...



There are 2 blatant errors.

1. You wrote the wrong notes for D minor scale. 2 of them are incorrect.

2. The D minor scale is *not* the key of F major. It is the key of D minor. These are *not* interchangeable, even if they use the same notes. They are written with the same annotation on a staff, but that is it. The tonic and feel of the two keys are completely different. Think of it like this, are the words "trap" and "part" interchangeable? No. What if I replied to that with..., "but they use the same letters?" I would tell you that the position of the letters is relevant. And if you ignore that, you are just learning how to randomize letters and not how to make words and sentences. You need to graduate from the alphabet letters to making words.

As I said before, trying to think of modes by looking for a different scale and starting on a different note in the other scale is a tedious way to learn things. No one wants to be in the key of D minor and trying to think of the F major scale. Just learn the minor scale, figure out where a D is, and play the minor scale. Stop trying to think of the note names for anything besides finding the tonic.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 30, 2022)

fantom said:


> There are 2 blatant errors.
> 
> 1. You wrote the wrong notes for D minor scale. 2 of them are incorrect.
> 
> ...



Better said, thanks!


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 30, 2022)

Maybe it can be useful to go back a bit and learn about keys?

Do you know about keys and what it means to be in a key? Do you understand what functional harmony is?

Do you understand the concept of modal music and what it means to play in a mode?

Do you know *why* you want to learn about modes? What kind of modal music do you want to play, in what scenario do you want to use this stuff?

If you can't answer these questions, maybe it's good to sit down and think about whether learning about modes is the best use of your time. Maybe it could be better to take a more structured approach to music theory, starting with the basics.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

Got it ..key of F there is Bb not f#. D is the relative minor.
KEY OF G has f# 

D minor or D aeolian would be D E F G A Bb C D

Thank you


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

bassisace said:


> @vejichan Dont take this the wrong way, but you’re spending so much time trying to debate why you shouldn’t learn intervals. That time could’ve been used to learn music theory concepts, like intervals.



Here it is again if u missed this part

Always have people coming into my threads to derail the topic. There will always be people everywhere that just enjoy putting others down. Anyway for those who helped..thank you. I will take some time learning intervals.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 30, 2022)

I get the feeling that it would be useful to find one (or a few) good resource(s) on music theory and following along from the beginning at a nice and comfortable pace.

As it is now you start a forum thread on a more or less advanced topic and then complain that you don't understand. But it's kind of impossible to explain modes to a 5-year-old, or at least it would take a really long time, and the 5-year-old would probably need to go through a whole bunch of more basic concepts first. And nobody here can know exactly how much background knowledge you have and thus in what way to explain things the best way.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

Dr. Caligari said:


> I get the feeling that it would be useful to find one (or a few) good resource(s) on music theory and following along from the beginning at a nice and comfortable pace.
> 
> As it is now you start a forum thread on a more or less advanced topic and then complain that you don't understand. But it's kind of impossible to explain modes to a 5-year-old, or at least it would take a really long time, and the 5-year-old would probably need to go through a whole bunch of more basic concepts first. And nobody here can know exactly how much background knowledge you have and thus in what way to explain things the best way.


 Thanks but i am a beginner. So you can coreectly assume that i have 0 experience 0 music theory 0 talent


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks but i am a beginner. So you can coreectly assume that i have 0 experience 0 music theory 0 talent



And with that in mind you expect me to teach you modes? For free? With my spare time?

LOL. No.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks but i am a beginner. So you can coreectly assume that i have 0 experience 0 music theory 0 talent



Hence the suggestion to get a resource, like a book.

I suggested a 25$ book that you could read on your "3h commute".

You seem to spend more time not wanting to learn than actually putting in the effort to understand what people are actually saying.

You don't seem to have done any exercise I or anyone else have mentioned.

I told you to try playing modes over their tonic chord drone, i.e. using a Youtube backing track and playing F major over an F major chord and playing D minor over a D minor chord.

If you'd done so, you'd have actually HEARD the difference between F major and D minor.

Do that for all modes.

Once you've done that, you may be curious as to why the modes sound different.

That's where understanding intervals comes in.

The excuse of being a beginner is not a good one. We were all there.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

Dr. Caligari said:


> And with that in mind you expect me to teach you modes? For free? With my spare time?
> 
> LOL. No.



Thank you for your help. This post is directed to people who will help. Apologird for taking up your time and Please kindly move on and participate in the other threads in this forum.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> Hence the suggestion to get a resource, like a book.
> 
> I suggested a 25$ book that you could read on your "3h commute".
> 
> ...




I am and have been reading about music theory on my 3h commute. Thanks for following up.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> I am and have been reading about music theory on my 3h commute. Thanks for following up.



I agree with @Dr. Caligari , a book would give you a well organized path to learn.

Did you get the book I was suggesting (guitar theory for dummies)? Fretboard theory vol. 1-2 could also be good, but I suggest the "for dummies" book first.

Both books are about 20$ so you won't have to starve your family if you buy one.

Reading is only part of it. I really think you should do practical ear exercises like the one I mentioned.

Anyhow, good luck.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thank you for your help. This post is directed to people who will help. Apologird for taking up your time and Please kindly move on and participate in the other threads in this forum.



Good luck, just remember that you have to put in serious effort to learn and if you're missing fundamentals it can be easy to get confused. A book or such is good since it's designed to cover all the stuff you need before moving ahead.


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## bassisace (Jan 30, 2022)

Dr. Caligari said:


> Good luck, just remember that you have to put in serious effort to learn and if you're missing fundamentals it can be easy to get confused. A book or such is good since it's designed to cover all the stuff you need before moving ahead.



He won't do it. A book was mentioned to him more than a week ago. Like 90% of the posts he decided to ignore it.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

Likr Bunch of free resources like youtube


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Likr Bunch of free resources like youtube



A book will give you a complete path where all necessary concepts are explained, in an easy to learn order.

A YT video won't do that.


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## bassisace (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Likr Bunch of free resources like youtube



A complete course in a book isn't the same as youtube videos lol. Is it because you don't want to make the effort of reading? You don't even have to make the effort to find a good book. That was done for you.


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## jaxadam (Jan 30, 2022)

HungryGuitarStudent said:


> A book will give you a complete path where all necessary concepts are explained, in an easy to learn order.
> 
> A YT video won't do that.



This a million times.


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## IwantTacos (Jan 30, 2022)

bassisace said:


> He won't do it. A book was mentioned to him more than a week ago. Like 90% of the posts he decided to ignore it.



can't read through this whole thread. what book is this.


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## TedEH (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Thanks but i am a beginner.


These are not beginner questions. If you really are a beginner, and people are telling you "these are the wrong questions for a beginner to be asking", then it's not a put-down, it's legitimate advice.

And again with this:


vejichan said:


> 0 talent


Stop saying this. Stop saying it to us, and stop saying it to yourself. This is the #1 problem keeping you from progressing - it's not "the haters", it's not the theory, it's the attitude of shooting yourself in the foot. The #2 problem being that you insist on skipping the basics then get upset when advanced topics don't sink in. If this is the route you really want to take you NEED to build the foundation, you NEED to let the basics sink in before you tackle everything else. There's no getting around it.


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## bassisace (Jan 30, 2022)

I'd add this to @TedEH 's comment: learn how modes sound before going into any theory. Someone suggested an easy way to do this using youtube and your guitar. DO IT. 

The theory you'll learn afterward will help you understand why modes sounds different and how to exploit that in your writing.

@IwantTacos I think the Desi Serna "for dummies" book was mentioned and others I can't remember.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

Free is good. I took away more from this dudes free youtube videos than i ever got from any other videos, lessons etc.

https://youtube.com/c/SignalsMusicStudio


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## jaxadam (Jan 30, 2022)

IwantTacos said:


> can't read through this whole thread. what book is this.



“0 Experience, 0 Music Theory, 0 Talent in 0 Easy Steps!”


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## bassisace (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Free is good. I took away more from this dudes free youtube videos than i ever got from any other videos, lessons etc.
> 
> https://youtube.com/c/SignalsMusicStudio



Yep, I'm aware of this youtube channel.

Doesn't change the fact that youtube videos aren't complete courses on music theory. They won't give you a complete picture in a structured way.

And so you fill this thread with questions about the missing pieces not covered in the videos that you'd get in a book.

You keep not wanting to put in the work or follow any advice.

Why ask questions here then?


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## fantom (Jan 30, 2022)

I'd also argue that using random people on the internet won't be self consistent. Find one person with a course and take the course if you really want to watch videos. I'm an experiential learner, so that just wouldn't work for me.

Also, modes are not advanced. But you shouldn't really try to learn modes until you are comfortable with chord progressions and melodies in the natural minor and major keys.

And re-emphasizing ear training. If you were to take music in college as a total noob, this would occupy probably half of your coursework for the first 2 years... And for good reason. Even if all you do is figure out how to play a favorite song and compare your version to existing tabs, this will help you start connecting intervals to sounds without having to learn the terminology. The theory part will give you the words for concepts you already figured out.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 30, 2022)

fantom said:


> Also, modes are not advanced. But you shouldn't really try to learn modes until you are comfortable with chord progressions and melodies in the natural minor and major keys.



I think guitar players have an unhealthy obsession with modes. It's like it's become this thing you're "supposed" to learn but I don't know if most people know why they're learning it. I remember taking some guitar lessons as a young beginner and getting modes thrown at me. I had absolutely zero use for that information at that point, and I had no clue what modal music actually was for years. I was completely missing the context.


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## vejichan (Jan 30, 2022)

Please go back and read what my initial request was..how did we get from there to what it is now ?
I think i spent more time responding and defending myself than actually ask any questions other than what was initially posted. I was good 2-3 pgs ago.
No questions for now.

"Have a few things i want to clarify in regards to theory - Keep in mind i don't know theory so keep it simple. I am keeping this all in D and my understanding is the concept is the same for the other keys (C, E, F, G, A, B etc)

D Mixolydian Mode is G major scale starting on D (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C,D)
If someone was strumming a D major Chord - I can use D mixolydian mode to solo over that
I can use D ionian mode, D lydian mode, D Mixolydian mode to solo over someone strumming a D major Chord
I can use D Dorian, D Phrygian mode, D Aeolian mode to solo over someone strumming a D minor Chord
Please correct me if i am wrong. If this is true then it has open some doors for me in regard to theory and using it in my music. Taking baby steps."



bassisace said:


> Yep, I'm aware of this youtube channel.
> 
> Doesn't change the fact that youtube videos aren't complete courses on music theory. They won't give you a complete picture in a structured way.
> 
> ...


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## bassisace (Jan 30, 2022)

vejichan said:


> Please go back and read what my initial request was..how did we get from there to what it is now ?
> I think i spent more time responding and defending myself than actually ask any questions other than what was initially posted. I was good 2-3 pgs ago.
> No questions for now.
> 
> ...



That question was answered 20 times in this thread. 

If you learned about intervals, then you’d be able to answer it yourself.


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## fantom (Jan 31, 2022)

Just to make sure your actual points are answered:



vejichan said:


> D Mixolydian Mode is G major scale starting on D (D, E, F#, G, A, B, C,D)



At an alphabet level, yes. But this is a confusing way to learn modes. It seems to be popular with a lot of YouTubers who are trying to make it "simple", but it makes things more difficult to reason about. D Mixolydian is a D Major scale where the 7th note of the scale is flat (replace the C# with a C). This means the 7th note is vital to change the color of what you are playing. If you almost never play that note, or you don't play it to give the melody a memorable difference, then why not just use the major scale?



vejichan said:


> If someone was strumming a D major Chord - I can use D mixolydian mode to solo over that



You didn't mention the function of the D major chord or what key you are playing in, so maybe? I'd it is a D Major drone forever, sure.



vejichan said:


> I can use D ionian mode, D lydian mode, D Mixolydian mode to solo over someone strumming a D major Chord



Same answer. This type of question plagues guitarists who think "vertically". You need to understand what the chord is doing functionally. Play a D Major in the key of Bm is a different answer than playing a D Major in the key of G.

It is easier to try each one out in different contexts and try to understand what you as an artist think sounds good.



vejichan said:


> I can use D Dorian, D Phrygian mode, D Aeolian mode to solo over someone strumming a D minor Chord



See above.


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