# Speculation is getting out of hand...



## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

So this is how Reverb looks when you try to buy an USA Jackson sevenstring in 2023:




Now I can _kinda_ understand the pricing of the Kelly, because it's brand new and has a graphic finish. But the rest?
- 9k for a used USA Jackson is just insane.
- The second one was purchased by Patrick Sheridan (Fit For An Autopsy) from Romeo Knight (I believe he was a member here) for less than 3k in 2022. Now it's listed at 8k.
- The fourth one has a lot of dings, but Diablo Guitars is well known for massively especulating on used guitars (he also listed Christ Letford's Jackson at 7k recently). .
- The fifth one is just laughable. It sat for years at 2k on Reverb, someone bought it eventually and it was relisted at 7,5k.

So... Are people really buying these guitars at these prices? If you take a look on Facebook USA Jacksons group everyone makes fun of used prices, but someone must be paying them otherwise they wouldn't look so insane. It has reached a point where I don't think I'll ever have another USA Jackson sevenstring as I don't think they are worth that amount by any stretch of the imagination (I mean, that's Ken Lawrence pricing territory). I don't think inflation has anything to do with this either. I'm betting on pure greed here. 

/rant


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 4, 2023)

Specific to Jackson, the further removed we get from being able to order this stuff, the crazier the prices will get. Jackson seems to have zero interest in opening up full custom builds for normal folks. 

Non-specific to Jackson, there's a pretty sizeable enclave of guys who have limitless budgets and just buy this stuff for the sake of it, so yeah, even as the prices get more ridiculous, they'll still buy. Maybe not every piece right away, but sellers just sort of wait for the big payday. 

Outside of that, there's some strategy here for the big flippers. The higher they raise the ceiling on this stuff the higher they can pump less fancy pieces.


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## possumkiller (Jan 4, 2023)

Isn't reverb just a group of about 100 flippers buying from each other and selling to each other for higher and higher prices giving used guitars a false overinflated sense of value?


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

I was looking at guitars a few days ago (haven't really done it much last few years) and I thought to myself fuck it. I'll just play what I have, there's no way I'm paying these prices. Amps still seem mostly fine, more expensive yeah but not insane. Guitars on the other hand are just crazy. I'm out.


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

I think there is no movement, at least, not the numbers that we think.

If a $2000 guitar, which is undevalued by someone's eyes is bought for $2400, the second owner can list it for $2800, for example, and make profit.

But what I see more often than not are outrageous increases of price like $2000 to $4000 or more. It is not 'natural' that overprice in 'one step'.

So, my thought is that there are a lot of unused and overpriced guitars floating around as a 'trap' (if someone is willing to pay that, I will sell. If not, I have some other guitars for sale).

And for the market in general terms (specially new guitars), I think it is 'broken' in two. Cheap guitars, now range from nothing to $1000 or so, made in foreign countries and on the other side, expensive guitars from $3000 to more for US or Japan made guitars and such. There is no 'middle ground' like it used to be.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

I really wish these collectors and flippers would leave instruments to the actual musicians. I mean it's enraging. Imagine carpenters being grossly underpaid and some wankers collecting and flipping hammers to the point where prices skyrocket. Fuck off...


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Gear sales have gotten weird in general. It used to be that asking price was what you paid basically, unless the guitar has sat for a bit with no takers. Now from day one, half of this stuff is marked up 40-50%, just so it can get the discount tags "30% off" when they drop price. I guess it works since they sell a lot more than me and they wouldn't be adopting the strategy if it wasn't netting sales. Sometimes I wind up talking to people and maybe not making an offer because I don't want to be insulting that my best offer is like 40% of what he's asking, but then it sells, and I find out it sold for close to what I would have offered. The best strategy as a buyer is just to throw some offers but stick to what you feel is a fair price. If you know the market, and don't follow up meeting them halfway and halfway again, they might cave.



Dr. Caligari said:


> I really wish these collectors and flippers would leave instruments to the actual musicians. I mean it's enraging. Imagine carpenters being grossly underpaid and some wankers collecting and flipping hammers to the point where prices skyrocket. Fuck off...



Yea, not sure how many carpenters need 5A koa hammers with flame engraved heads. This stuff isn't made for gigging players in the first place.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Yea, not sure how many carpenters need 5A koa hammers with flame engraved heads. This stuff isn't made for gigging players in the first place.



Yeah, I think this is lost on folks. Not being able to add another very expensive, bespoke instrument to your collection isn't something "players" worry about, it's what hobbyist and enthusiasts deal in, unless you're part of the extreme minority that are professional musicians.


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Yea, not sure how many carpenters need 5A koa hammers with flame engraved heads. This stuff isn't made for gigging players in the first place.



Although that cracked me up, I don't completely agree. The natural mahogany one at the right is a very utilitarian looking instrument that went from 2k to 7,5k.

I don't need a gaudy graphic or ultra-fancy 1000 year chinese tree top. I'd fucking take a gloss black USA soloist 7-string no problem if they didn't go for 7k used.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Yea, not sure how many carpenters need 5A koa hammers with flame engraved heads. This stuff isn't made for gigging players in the first place.



But I see similar things happen with way more utilitarian stuff. It's like the idea spreads and everybody thinks "oh, guitars are supposed to be listed for twice their worth".

I can't afford that expensive stuff anyway but even things that I thought would be in my reach now aren't.


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## Senensis (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Sometimes I wind up talking to people and maybe not making an offer because I don't want to be insulting that my best offer is like 40% of what he's asking, but then it sells, and I find out it sold for close to what I would have offered.


I also suffer from "lowballshametitis". But as a seller and a buyer, it has become so hard to price stuff at a decent price nowadays... between inflation, currency exchange rates being wacky, and people simply pricing stuff randomly, putting a realistic price tag from the get go is almost mission impossible. So plenty of people start high, and gradually drop hoping not to get "ripped off" by selling too low straight away.

Wierd times on the used market is all I can say.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

I've even been to local stores selling used gear and they've been like "yeah well these are listed for x on Reverb". Urghh...

They list used Japanese production ESPs for 2k€. I've seriously bought those for 600-850 in the past.

I feel like a whiner right now, but yeah, just saying!


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## mpexus (Jan 4, 2023)

I see it like this meme


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Dr. Caligari said:


> I've even been to local stores selling used gear and they've been like "yeah well these are listed for x on Reverb". Urghh...
> 
> They list used Japanese production ESPs for 2k€. I've seriously bought those for 600-850 in the past.
> 
> I feel like a whiner right now, but yeah, just saying!



Jeez... don't get me started. I could have gotten a whole custom horizon collection for the price of one of my horizons these days. Hamers too. But it's a little bit "you snooze, you lose" -- had I not spent 2008-2018 being too pompous to try out production guitars, I would have discovered late 80s ESPs are very much my thing. And while universes are not so much my thing, it still pains me to see pristine examples going for $1500 ~4 years ago. 

But this isn't just like "a seller thing", it's a perception thing. We all had the ability to buy those guitars when they were cheap and people didn't really want them. I had a guy offer me a UV7MC AND A UV7PWH for one of my Daemonesses! Now a lot of groups of people obsess over those guitars and move it into unobtanium. Some are super collectors, but some are just fanatics and I don't think it's fair to glom them into some tier of people that is comparatively undeserving of the guitars. That's a cop out. But this is generally separate issue from just high listing reverb prices. This is increase in actual general market value. The reverb speculation listings are just fishing for the one guy that'll purchase for big money, and they're happy to sit on those guitars for a year or two or more for it to happen.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> Although that cracked me up, I don't completely agree. The natural mahogany one at the right is a very utilitarian looking instrument that went from 2k to 7,5k.
> 
> I don't need a gaudy graphic or ultra-fancy 1000 year chinese tree top. I'd fucking take a gloss black USA soloist 7-string no problem if they didn't go for 7k used.



From the player pov, why does it have to be USA? It seems a little arbitrary (/a bit collector-ish) to want that specific quality, which is unfortunately rare due to the time periods when Jackson USA was pumping out stuff vs. the time people bought 7-strings.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

A bit unrelated but just to rant -- PRS Modern Eagle Is are selling at dealers for more than 2,000,000Y or like roughly $20k or more in local purchasing power equivalent.


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> From the player pov, why does it have to be USA? It seems a little arbitrary (/a bit collector-ish) to want that specific quality, which is unfortunately rare due to the time periods when Jackson USA was pumping out stuff vs. the time people bought 7-strings.



Because there are no Jackson MIJ 7s either (which I'm perfectly fine with), and their MII sevens I've tried were so-so at best. I don't think it's arbitrary to put your money on a quality instrument.

My gigs are 4:30h long. Believe me you appreciate a quality instrument when you're playing for that long.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> Because there are no Jackson MIJ 7s either (which I'm perfectly fine with), and the MII sevens they have are so-so at best.



There's MIJ 7s produced under the Jackson Stars branding.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> There's MIJ 7s produced under the Jackson Stars branding.



I looked a while back and shipping from Ishibashi to Europe seems to have gone mental. Used to be a pretty good idea though (if you're ok buying without trying). Some cooool stuff in Japan.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Jeez... don't get me started. I could have gotten a whole custom horizon collection for the price of one of my horizons these days. Hamers too. But it's a little bit "you snooze, you lose" -- had I not spent 2008-2018 being too pompous to try out production guitars, I would have discovered late 80s ESPs are very much my thing. And while universes are not so much my thing, it still pains me to see pristine examples going for $1500 ~4 years ago.
> 
> But this isn't just like "a seller thing", it's a perception thing. We all had the ability to buy those guitars when they were cheap and people didn't really want them. I had a guy offer me a UV7MC AND A UV7PWH for one of my Daemonesses! Now a lot of groups of people obsess over those guitars and move it into unobtanium. Some are super collectors, but some are just fanatics and I don't think it's fair to glom them into some tier of people that is comparatively undeserving of the guitars. That's a cop out. But this is generally separate issue from just high listing reverb prices. This is increase in actual general market value. The reverb speculation listings are just fishing for the one guy that'll purchase for big money, and they're happy to sit on those guitars for a year or two or more for it to happen.



Yeah... I can still remember seeing a custom shop Jackson Warrior locally. I was like hmm, that's a preeetty good deal but I don't reeeally need it right now. That stupid guitar still haunts my dreams. It was like 700€. Maybe 800.

It's just... seeing the way some people look at guitars. Like there's some youtube guy buying all the Norlin Gibsons and he's obviously making a fortune but he seems like he barely plays, and every comment is about the condition or wood grain and never tone or playability. It's like turning a tool into something completely different and I think that's what frustrates me.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Dr. Caligari said:


> Yeah... I can still remember seeing a custom shop Jackson Warrior locally. I was like hmm, that's a preeetty good deal but I don't reeeally need it right now. That stupid guitar still haunts my dreams. It was like 700€. Maybe 800.
> 
> It's just... seeing the way some people look at guitars. Like there's some youtube guy buying all the Norlin Gibsons and he's obviously making a fortune but he seems like he barely plays, and every comment is about the condition or wood grain and never tone or playability. It's like turning a tool into something completely different and I think that's what frustrates me.



Would it matter if he was a killer player? Seems irrelevant. Any guitarist only needs a few guitars realistically, and ones that these days could be purchased on basically anyone's budget. Everything beyond that is about "want", and if you want something, go find the way to afford it. No one needs a Norlin era Gibson. For a good amount of the time since their inception, people didn't even want them. Now we're supposed to be frustrated that someone is flipping them? I just can't be bothered. I sort of think of how these first people to be out in space and look back at earth and found a new appreciation for how petty all the politics and war was. I can't imagine how much less important inflating the prices on Norlin era Gibsons is.

Regarding shipping from Japan, it should be like $300 tops ($400 for an explorer/star shape) to ship from Japan to Europe. In the context of talking about $7k Jacksons, I don't think that's unreasonable.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Would it matter if he was a killer player? Seems irrelevant. Any guitarist only needs a few guitars realistically, and ones that these days could be purchased on basically anyone's budget. Everything beyond that is about "want", and if you want something, go find the way to afford it. No one needs a Norlin era Gibson. For a good amount of the time since their inception, people didn't even want them. Now we're supposed to be frustrated that someone is flipping them? I just can't be bothered. I sort of think of how these first people to be out in space and look back at earth and found a new appreciation for how petty all the politics and war was. I can't imagine how much less important inflating the prices on Norlin era Gibsons is.
> 
> Regarding shipping from Japan, it should be like $300 tops ($400 for an explorer/star shape) to ship from Japan to Europe. In the context of talking about $7k Jacksons, I don't think that's unreasonable.



Stars are not that expensive, and the shipping was absurd, it was more than 300 I'm sure. And we have to pay import tax on the shipping as well. It would've been over 50% of the price of the guitar for me.

I think for the Gibsons it's the fact that those were not so sought after, and could be had as a player's instrument. But that seems to be changing for everything bit by bit. I struggle finding 80s Japanese guitars for a fair price also. Everything is harder to find and more expensive.

Would it matter if the youtube guy was a great player? I don't care about people's skills but if he bought them to play them it might feel a bit better.

At the end of the day, yeah this shit's not a huge deal but it's just one more thing in the pile that's a bummer. I don't have a lot of money and it feels bad having to downgrade gear. Especially while watching some flipper buy a palace and fill it with guitars.

Anyway. Flippers gonna flip and haters gonna hate. We all just do what we do I guess.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Dr. Caligari said:


> Stars are not that expensive, and the shipping was absurd, it was more than 300 I'm sure. And we have to pay import tax on the shipping as well. It would've been over 50% of the price of the guitar for me.
> 
> I think for the Gibsons it's the fact that those were not so sought after, and could be had as a player's instrument. But that seems to be changing for everything bit by bit. I struggle finding 80s Japanese guitars for a fair price also. Everything is harder to find and more expensive.
> 
> ...



There's never been a better time to buy an entry level guitar. If you care about "player's instruments", there has never been a better time! If Solar guitars existed when I started, I'd probably never branched out to try to find things that were better. But instead of focusing on the cheap, high quality, readily available guitars, you're focusing on 80s Japanese guitars and Norlin Gibsons? Norlins as player's instruments? Reluctant players, mostly. I mean, it's bonkers. The answer is right in front of you, in the form of the slew of current high quality import guitars, or older eras that have not gotten the collectors' focus yet.

Regarding the shipping. Yea, shipping doesn't care about the instrument value. If you want a cheap guitar, the shipping will be half of it. But, you get a cheap guitar. Why complain about that? Or you could buy an expensive guitar and only pay 5% the value in shipping. Is that a bargain? Like this is also such an odd thing to focus on for me. Just think about what the total cost gets you in terms of the instrument vs. what's available locally. I'd rather import a nice Stars than get any of the current crop of ~800 Indonesian Jacksons. The high end stars are probably not going to be distinguishable from early 90s MIJ Jacksons or Jackson CS.


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> There's never been a better time to buy an entry level guitar. If you care about "player's instruments", there has never been a better time! If Solar guitars existed when I started, I'd probably never branched out to try to find things that were better. But instead of focusing on the cheap, high quality, readily available guitars, you're focusing on 80s Japanese guitars and Norlin Gibsons? Norlins as player's instruments? Reluctant players, mostly. I mean, it's bonkers. The answer is right in front of you, in the form of the slew of current high quality import guitars, or older eras that have not gotten the collectors' focus yet.
> 
> Regarding the shipping. Yea, shipping doesn't care about the instrument value. If you want a cheap guitar, the shipping will be half of it. But, you get a cheap guitar. Why complain about that? Or you could buy an expensive guitar and only pay 5% the value in shipping. Is that a bargain? Like this is also such an odd thing to focus on for me. Just think about what the total cost gets you in terms of the instrument vs. what's available locally. I'd rather import a nice Stars than get any of the current crop of ~800 Indonesian Jacksons. The high end stars are probably not going to be distinguishable from early 90s MIJ Jacksons or Jackson CS.



Well I did import a high end Stars and it's got a screwed up bridge route. So they're not always all that. (Stupidly I didn't look at the pics properly.)

It's not that I can't have guitars, it's just a feel-bad situation of things becoming more and more unavailable. I realize that I would not be able to replace the guitars I have with the same thing, I'd have to settle for "less". And I've not been impressed with cheaper guitars. But Korean LTDs have been pretty good to me, so there's that at least.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Dr. Caligari said:


> Well I did import a high end Stars and it's got a screwed up bridge route. So they're not always all that. (Stupidly I didn't look at the pics properly.)
> 
> It's not that I can't have guitars, it's just a feel-bad situation of things becoming more and more unavailable. I realize that I would not be able to replace the guitars I have with the same thing, I'd have to settle for "less". And I've not been impressed with cheaper guitars. But Korean LTDs have been pretty good to me, so there's that at least.



Just out of curiosity, did you get the stars from a dealer or from auction/private sale? At any rate, the tiering with Stars is not always clear. For the price they're all pretty good generally, but the top tier Stars are really nice. What I'm recommending is not import cheap guitars from Japan, but a higher end Stars 7, like $1-1.5k+, is probably not going to be so distinguishable from. This is my USA CS warrior. It feels a little different from the better Stars / early 90s MIJ, but not in a way that is better. I think the neck feel on the older ones was better, personally.


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> There's MIJ 7s produced under the Jackson Stars branding.



There _were_.

And all of them had TOM bridges. I would have a Stars Kelly ages ago if they had FR. They were also "japan-only" models, and usually very rare to come by.


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## xzyryabx (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


>


Woah!!!
Pull that out for me the next time I come over!


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## Dr. Caligari (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Just out of curiosity, did you get the stars from a dealer or from auction/private sale? At any rate, the tiering with Stars is not always clear. For the price they're all pretty good generally, but the top tier Stars are really nice. What I'm recommending is not import cheap guitars from Japan, but a higher end Stars 7, like $1-1.5k+, is probably not going to be so distinguishable from. This is my USA CS warrior. It feels a little different from the better Stars / early 90s MIJ, but not in a way that is better. I think the neck feel on the older ones was better, personally.



Ishibashi. They were very nice and all, just shipped so quickly I didn't spot the issue til it was too late. It was one of the top models in the catalogue, tn01 I think? The most expensive one with US specs apart from plastic covers for trem and control cavities. Neck shape is good to me. It's just the bridge thing, but that apparently happens with US ones too *shrug*.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> There _were_.
> 
> And all of them had TOM bridges. I would have a Stars Kelly ages ago if they had FR. They were also "japan-only" models, and usually very rare to come by.



Yea, I basically see one a year (with ebony board and high end appointments) but what's the rush? But yea... all TOMs I guess.


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

narad said:


> Yea, I basically see one a year (with ebony board and high end appointments) but what's the rush? But yea... all TOMs I guess.



Everytime I see the Kelly pop up I consider getting it. But then I remember I had one of the older KE-7s with a TOM and couldn't get around it. But yeah, if you like TOMs you're in for a treat since Stars usually go around 800-1300$.

I'm not sure I understand the "tier" differences as you say. I don't even know if there were different tiers for the 7-stringers since I've only seen like 3 o 4 of them (SL7, RR, KE, KV). But here the SL7 is cheaper. The 138, 135 and 125 suffixes seem to be the key, but no clue of what they mean (although it matches the price ).






The fact that Jackson Stars had a "complete line" of 7-string bangers boggles my mind and I wish they were released worlwide. At that time they would have been far more popular than the ones they first released (that were "OK" at best).


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

I just watch the market from afar.

Many years ago I went to a gathering of Fender players. There were a lot of cork-sniffers middle-age lawyers and blue collar men. Everyone was bragging about their Custom Shop guitars. They were so cringy that, albeit 'forbidden' (it was a FMIC only gathering), they brought other brands (Tom Anderson, Suhr, PRS...) to brag about.
Right at the beginning I was sure that I was in the wrong place, as I only had one guitar and I was focused only in playing to the best of my capacities and not to buy/sell.

At the time, I had a good US made Strat that nobody cared about and even had a a laugh saying that it was 'inferior' to their Suhr or Tom Anderson (which were high priced models of those companies, top of the line).

The most vivid image that I have was a fat, bald lawyer wanking pentatonic stuff on a Tom Anderson and having a blast showing his guitar. He was really bad and the tone was like he was playing through a beginners rig.

When he finished, I set up that rig for me and played that Tom Anderson the best I could like I was EVH in the middle of an arena. I wiped the floor with him.

This was the first and only time that I've played on that gathering and to 'humble' somebody in my entire life. I promise myself not to be that guy or to brag about something only because I had the dough.

I love playing guitar, practicing and becoming better with the instrument. I love anything gear related, but my family never had that disposable income and my gear was hard earned or by saving. Now that I have the money, I can't justify myself to spend a lot because for me it is a hobby. If music was my work, that would be different.

I love watching NGD threads, learning and reading about the hobby, but the 'money' part of it, leaves me cold.

I don't 'need' more than three or four guitars. Even only one. But that's me.

Sorry for the long post. I guess it is an introduction.


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## budda (Jan 4, 2023)

Reverb prices are one thing, local stores listing production instruments for more than their *current new cost* is another. Then they became a dealer in that brand


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

budda said:


> Reverb prices are one thing, local stores listing production instruments for more than their *current new cost* is another.



The Northlane signature costs 1000€ less in Europe than in the US because of that. Music stores in the US are doing what computer stores did with GPUs. Crazy. 



Mister Shreddingaton said:


> I love playing guitar, practicing and becoming better with the instrument. I love anything gear related, but my family never had that disposable income and my gear was hard earned or by saving. Now that I have the money, I can't justify myself to spend a lot because for me it is a hobby. If music was my work, that would be different.
> 
> I love watching NGD threads, learning and reading about the hobby, but the 'money' part of it, leaves me cold.
> 
> I don't 'need' more than three or four guitars. Even only one. But that's me.



Yup. I'm on a similar boat. I played the same guitar for like 5 years until I decided that my at the time financial position allowed me to buy a new higher-end guitar with no major impact. Then due to some other killer deals popping up, I ended up getting three more in a year period. Three years later I have the exact same guitars, and considering current market situation my guess is that won't change in a looong time.

Although my paycheks are bigger than back then, so are my expenses and inflation, and the insane markups that high-end guitars have now have taken me out of that market entirely.

If you gig a lot, having extra guitars is always useful. For example I always carry two guitars to a gig, and sometimes the gear stays at my bass players house in-between gigs. So having at least a third fully functional guitar to play at home is important for me.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 4, 2023)

I get the vibe that some folks are getting something of an inferiority complex over gear. 

It's okay to have cheaper gear, it doesn't make anyone more or less of a guitar player, it just means exactly what it is: you've put less money in. That's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. 

Sure, some folks gloat about what they have. That's life. Don't let it eat you up. 

I know that in modern capitalist society it's frowned on to not be disgustingly rich, but that's just a way for them to sell you more shit you don't need.


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

Not inferiority complex, just different views about the hobby.

I like high-end gear too. And my gear is better than others', so...


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## Agalloch (Jan 4, 2023)

The prices on used Jacksons are really all over the place. I'm seeing plenty of USA "select" guitars sitting at much lower prices on Reverb than they would have a year or so ago. Even Aristides are sitting _forever_ on Reverb when they used to sell super quickly. So I think it's safe to say the market is down for less extravagant used guitars.

As for extravagant guitars--which, as has been said here, have a _very_ different audience of stupid wealthy collectors--I see those sit for a _long_ time too. But that's the thing, the people selling those guitars are probably happy to let the listing hang as long as they need to. If you're not in a rush to sell something, you don't need to price it competitively.


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I get the vibe that some folks are getting something of an inferiority complex over gear.
> 
> It's okay to have cheaper gear, it doesn't make anyone more or less of a guitar player, it just means exactly what it is: you've put less money in. That's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...



A friend told me a couple days ago he felt "unworthy" of his guitars. He bought like 20 guitars in the last two years (after a long hiatus after selling all his guitars years ago). I told him something similar. He's the same guitar player regardless of the guitars he has, and if purchasing guitars don't make a dent on his financial position and he loves guitars, why not buy them? It's just a hobby. 

Honestly, I enjoy guitar nerding with him over gear I can't afford . Kinda like watching youtube gear demos. He is a master lowballer that manages to get amazing guitars at disgusting prices, though. 

I guess @Mister Shreddingaton referred to gear gatekeeping, which can occur in some places. I wouldn't say it happens here, though.

I probably have quite expensive guitars compared to my guitar peers in my area, but that is also because I don't really flip gear at all. Some of them have purchased more guitars than I can count, but they won't stay for long.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jan 4, 2023)

The whole overvaluation of gear (especially used gear) in regards to Reverb listing practices specifically comes down to three things.

1.) Sellers will list their items at absurdly high prices with the goal of settling at a much lower price, but also taking advantage of slapping a "% discount" on their Reverb listing in order to make the listing more attractive to potential buyers in hopes of eliciting a faster sale.

For example: a seller will list a guitar for $5,000 with the goal of actually walking away with $3,000 in their pocket for the guitar. So, the guitar will be listed at $5,000 with the "MAKE AN OFFER" function enabled; and it'll sit for a few days or weeks (or even a month or two) before the seller will drop the price in order to follow through with their plan. Let's say that the seller drops the price 30% immediately. In response to this price drop, Reverb blasts out a wave of notifications to watchers informing them that the price has been dropped. The watchers go onto the listing and that big ol' "30% OFF!" discount mark plastered on the listing starts to look attractive. They start to think to themselves that, regardless if the gear is significantly overvalued or not, they (as the buyer) might be getting a great deal. They also notice that the "MAKE AN OFFER" function was removed from the listing at the same time that the price was dropped by the seller. So, the watcher thinks to themselves that the seller isn't going any lower in price. No offers lower than the discounted price will be considered. And from a psychological standpoint, that discount mark plastered on the listing starts to trigger "buyer panic" where the watcher will start to worry that someone else will beat him to purchasing the instrument because he knows that everyone watching the listing received the same notification from Reverb about the discount.

After jumping through some mental hoops to rationalize the purchase ("I'll put it on a credit card", "I'll sell another piece of gear and pay off the purchase", "I'll put in extra hours at work", whatever the reasoning may be, etc.), the watcher makes the purchase and becomes the buyer.

And as for the seller? The seller sold the guitar that they had initially extremely overvalued at $5,000 by offering a 30% discount ($1,500 off), which means that the guitar sold for $3,500. Once we subtract the necessary fees that the seller pays (roughly 12-14% nowadays, but let's subtract an even $500 which equates to 14.29% as a "worst case scenario"), then the seller successfully walks away with $3,000 in their pocket for the guitar, which was the goal from the beginning.

2.) Reverb's sales history tracking tool on their platform is primitive and inherently flawed.

When an item sells on Reverb, and it's an item that is in the sales history database, the price that gets logged into the sales history tracking (and that you see displayed on the little plot-point chart) is *not* the *actual, final price* that the item sold for. What *is* logged is the *final listing price* that the item was listed for at the time it sold, which is the same price that you see on the ended/closed listing when you go revisit the listing after the item sold.

Running with the example that I used above in Point 1, let's say that a guitar is listed for $5,000 and then the price is dropped by 30% down to $3,500. The seller then chooses to utilize the "MAKE AN OFFER" function and eventually settles for an offer of $3,000 from an interested buyer. The guitar sold for $3,000; but Reverb's sales history tracking will show that the price of the most recent sale for the item as being $3,500 (even though it *wasn't* sold for that amount) because that was the final price that the item was listed for at the time that the sale occurred. And again, you go revisit the now-ended listing, and you'll see $3,500 as the final price. This is reflected in the sales tracking history.

Other sellers of the same (or a similar) guitar model who look at the sales tracking history on Reverb will now think that they can get $3,500 for their guitar (even though the thing sold for $3,000, as we've established). And thus, we now have artificial price inflation caused by a sales tracking tool that is inaccurate. And this artificial inflation caused by the faulty tool will compound over time, as we've witnessed in the past 2-3 years. Asking prices on listings will climb higher (as fees get hiked higher and sellers want to pull the tactic that I outlined in Point 1), but the *actual, sold-for* prices could in fact remain the same, decrease, or increase. We don't know for sure unless we personally know the buyer of every item in each case.

So, overall, the sales history tracking tool on Reverb is inaccurate and cannot be trusted as a valid source for prices. Sellers will look at the sales history tracking tool to try to get an idea of price evaluation for an item that they are wanting to sell; but all it takes is one misrepresented price in the sales tracking history, and they will go nuts when pricing their own listing.

3.) Reverb is a free-for-all marketplace platform that elicits and facilitates certain people's stupid behaviors. This is just a "perk" of the platform being a "free market".

A good example of this would be the practice that arose back during the height of the 2020 COVID wave where people would list a used piece of gear for 95%+ of the price of a brand new unit on Reverb. They'd get a guitar, play with it, put some nasty cosmetic damage in it due to negligence, and then try to list the item for 95% of what the price of a new unit would cost. And the sellers would attempt to justify this due to the "supply chain shortages" that were affecting production of numerous products (including musical instruments) at the time. Well, now it's 2023. That shit is over. There is no further excuse.

Another problem is that Reverb as a company has no proper enforcement as far as market capping in the "free market" that they've created on their platform; and Reverb as a company fails to enforce their own guidelines regarding user practices and behaviors on the platform. So, truly anything can happen and go unchecked. Reverb flat-out doesn't give a shit. They even let proven, fraudulent listings stay active on their platform; and the company has taken part in facilitating theft from users in the past.


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

I don't flip and if I sell something is because it doesn't fulfill my expectations or I don't use it.

Did you saw the JHS germanium boost thing of the last week?

New pedal with NOS components, sold in five minutes. Then, Reverb and the usually places flooded with the same but overpriced pedals...


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## jl-austin (Jan 4, 2023)

There is a place out of Korea that makes custom guitars. I forget the name of them, but the prices are reasonable, and they Jackson body shapes.

Balaguer guitars.


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## jaxadam (Jan 4, 2023)

I’m content playing a $300 guitar through a $300 amp. Sounds just like a $3000 guitar through a $3000 amp.


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## MetalDaze (Jan 4, 2023)

I can hear Rick Harrison from Pawn Stars saying, "just because it is listed on the Internet for a high price doesn't mean that's what people are paying."

Keep in mind there was never a production USA 7-string Soloist (or any other shape for that matter), so the only ones that exist are custom shop and more recently it required a significant masterbuilt upcharge. I'm sure that is driving the "rarity" angle.


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## marke (Jan 4, 2023)

Mister Shreddingaton said:


> Now that I have the money, I can't justify myself to spend a lot because for me it is a hobby. If music was my work, that would be different.
> 
> I love watching NGD threads, learning and reading about the hobby, but the 'money' part of it, leaves me cold.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't feel bad for spending money on something I love. If there's enough after housing, food etc. then I don't think guitars are a bad choice.

You mentioned saving. I too need to save money it if I want a guitar.. if it's a Suhr I want, then I'm getting a Suhr. I'm certainly not rich, but I also won't feel bad spending earned and saved money on a guitar I want. I would feel bad if I let money to dictate everything in my life, however.

Of course the situation is different if one can't even save.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jan 4, 2023)

I speculate that some people have no idea what to spend their money on


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

marke said:


> I wouldn't feel bad for spending money on something I love. If there's enough after housing, food etc. then I don't think guitars are a bad choice.
> 
> You mentioned saving. I too need to save money it if I want a guitar.. if it's a Suhr I want, then I'm getting a Suhr. I'm certainly not rich, but I also won't feel bad spending earned and saved money on a guitar I want. I would feel bad if I let money to dictate everything in my life, however.
> 
> Of course the situation is different if one can't even save.



I know what you said. And it is true.

The last years of my life were pretty stressful and didn't have much time for guitar. I jumped in my real vocation (teaching) and changed careers (former IT). I was working full time and doing a Bachelor's Degree at the same time. Now, I'm finishing my Master's (and keep working too). The last step is to study for the exams to have a lifetime job as a teacher as in my country that Master's Degree is prerequisite to be able to take part on the exams and compete for the teachers posts.

That teacher post will be asigned by the system and I need to move to another city. Luckily, my intention is to apply for posts within my Comunidad Autónoma (like a state in US) and the move wil be less than four hours away by car.

That was the reason to have the money but not to buy something expensive, as my life is not settled yet and who knows what the future may bring. For me, it is sad to have something you love but don't have the time to have fun with it...

So, in one to three years, I will buy a James Tyler guitar, a good amp and ride into the sunset...

Sorry for the long post. Again.


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

Mister Shreddingaton said:


> That teacher post will be asigned by the system and I need to move to another city. Luckily, my intention is to apply for posts within my *Comunidad Autónoma* (like a state in US) and the move wil be less than four hours away by car.


Spaniard spotted!


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

Hahahahahaha.
Yes.
Galicia (northwest of Spain).


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## Emperoff (Jan 4, 2023)

Mister Shreddingaton said:


> Hahahahahaha.
> Yes.
> Galicia (northwest of Spain).


Alicante (east of Spain)


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## Mister Shreddingaton (Jan 4, 2023)

Encantado, tete.


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## odibrom (Jan 4, 2023)

Hello fellow hiberians, _Lisboeta_ here (as those who are born/live in Lisboa) saying Hi!

On to the topic, Reverb is off the charts, but local markets aren't there yet. There's an Ibanez S7320 on Reverb for 1200€ (approximately), another one local for 525€ (again approximately) and an S7420 (24 fret against the 22 of the previous model) for 500€ at about 250km. It seams that Reverb gained fame on being used by those with big pockets hence these price discrepancies.

For example, a Triaxis in reverb is generally over 1500€, while on the local market are 2 at 1000€ that don't move at all. I think it's like @MaxOfMetal and other have already said, people place those prices so they can lower the sale value and let the buyer feel like he/she _got a deal_... 

... I just have no patience for that...


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## Hollowway (Jan 4, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know that in modern capitalist society it's frowned on to not be disgustingly rich, but that's just a way for them to sell you more shit you don't need.


Yeah, I think this is the issue to a lot of this, and was going to make a similar point. I'm going to sound waaaay older than I am, but these days people are more concerned with making money that virtually anything else. No one is proud of WHAT they did to earn the money, so long as they have it. So we get scalpers, flippers, arbitrage in damn near everything, and none of these people are actually contributing anything along the way.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 5, 2023)

As I mentioned somewhere else I think it's kind of a pity when a piece of gear becomes "only" a collecter item.
Because it moves the act of making music to an act of feticism.
Obviously everyone loves shiny, well built things, but the quality divide between mother factory and import is getting smaller year by year.

If we want a nice, well made instrument to play music, there are loads of options out there without busting your bank account.


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## manu80 (Jan 5, 2023)

Seeing what happens right now and reverb putting in people's head that the prices they see there is the right one kinda disgust me.
On a french forum a guy was trying to sell a squier Mascis for 750 euros as he paid 450 euros for it 2 months before....
I was looking for a natural explorer, you could find some at 1200 euros back in the day, now it's 1700, which is ....the price brand new.
And as there no availability, and prices are rising, well they become available, they'll be more expensive, therefore the used market prices will stay the same...

So I look here and there and bitch in front of my screen as some stuff becomes too high for me !
can't wait to sell my 2 USA Jackson ah ah !


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

odibrom said:


> On to the topic, Reverb is off the charts, but local markets aren't there yet. There's an Ibanez S7320 on Reverb for 1200€ (approximately), another one local for 525€ (again approximately) and an S7420 (24 fret against the 22 of the previous model) for 500€ at about 250km. It seams that Reverb gained fame on being used by those with big pockets hence these price discrepancies.
> 
> For example, a Triaxis in reverb is generally over 1500€, while on the local market are 2 at 1000€ that don't move at all. I think it's like @MaxOfMetal and other have already said, people place those prices so they can lower the sale value and let the buyer feel like he/she _got a deal_...
> 
> ... I just have no patience for that...



Yeah, I agree on pretty much everything here. A quick look at Reverb will reveal that it's (mostly) an american market. Local classifieds here are the same as you describe (much sensible prices). But I wouldn't be surprised if US local classifieds (Craiglist?) looked the same as ours as well.

I get the impression that most people look for gear on local classifieds at sane prices, and later they flip them on Reverb at insane prices. Since you mentioned the Mesa TriAxis, the average sale price on those locally is around 800€. I looked up on Reverb to see what people were asking and put it on sale at 1500€. To my surprise, it immediatelly sold both on Reverb AND eBay (which was obviously a problem ). So yeah, looks like there's a different market that maybe only knowns Reverb pricing.

Checking my Reverb purchase history I find I rarely bought anything from there, so it all kinda makes sense. I bouight most of my used stuff locally.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 5, 2023)

The true underlying concept for me is that "it's not the time to purchase gear".


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> Yeah, I agree on pretty much everything here. A quick look at Reverb will reveal that it's (mostly) an american market. Local classifieds here are the same as you describe (much sensible prices). But I wouldn't be surprised if US local classifieds (Craiglist?) looked the same as ours as well.
> 
> I get the impression that most people look for gear on local classifieds at sane prices, and later they flip them on Reverb at insane prices. Since you mentioned the Mesa TriAxis, the average sale price on those locally is around 800€. I looked up on Reverb to see what people were asking and put it on sale at 1500€. To my surprise, it immediatelly sold both on Reverb AND eBay (which was obviously a problem ). So yeah, looks like there's a different market that maybe only knowns Reverb pricing.
> 
> Checking my Reverb purchase history I find I rarely bought anything from there, so it all kinda makes sense. I bouight most of my used stuff locally.



The thing is, you have to sort through a lot of bullshit on terribly designed sites and deal with some real knobs. You can use crawler sites, which helps, but these days most of the gear worth buying is on Reverb already. 

You also have to know your shit, because whatever is worthwhile on Craigslist or FB Marketplace that's priced low gets snapped up fast so you have to be ready with cash in hand. 

I find great deals with minimal hassle on retailer used listings all the time, like Music Go Round or GC Used. I miss DJM so bad. 



OmegaSlayer said:


> The true underlying concept for me is that "it's not the time to purchase gear".



We enjoyed decades of super cheap used gear, but now that the marketplace has shrunken to a central hub like Reverb and all the "secrets" are out, this is just how it is. 

Remember when eBay got popular?


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## Protestheriphery (Jan 5, 2023)

possumkiller said:


> Isn't reverb just a group of about 100 flippers buying from each other and selling to each other for higher and higher prices giving used guitars a false overinflated sense of value?





Dr. Caligari said:


> I really wish these collectors and flippers would leave instruments to the actual musicians. I mean it's enraging. Imagine carpenters being grossly underpaid and some wankers collecting and flipping hammers to the point where prices skyrocket. Fuck off...


Those are the only types I encountered when the pandemic hit, and served me up some hard times, which forced me to part ways with my cherished gear.


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The thing is, you have to sort through a lot of bullshit on terribly designed sites and deal with some real knobs. You can use crawler sites, which helps, but these days most of the gear worth buying is on Reverb already.
> 
> You also have to know your shit, because whatever is worthwhile on Craigslist or FB Marketplace that's priced low gets snapped up fast so you have to be ready with cash in hand.
> 
> I find great deals with minimal hassle on retailer used listings all the time, like Music Go Round or GC Used. I miss DJM so bad.



The thing is that here we have an app similar to Reverb, but for everything (not only music) that got famous enough to make most of the classified websites obsolete. It's super user-friendly so everyone uses it. That also means a less "specialized" audience (like those on music forums or Reverb), meaning lower prices.

The built-in shipping is super cheap (from 3€ to 30€, up to 30kg). Sales fees cannot exceed 20€ and are paid by the buyer at the moment of checkout (so sellers get the full amount of the price they list).

The downside is that you only had 48h to check if everything was OK, which in some circunstances was clearly insufficient. But they support PayPal now so that downside is gone.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 5, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The thing is, you have to sort through a lot of bullshit on terribly designed sites and deal with some real knobs. You can use crawler sites, which helps, but these days most of the gear worth buying is on Reverb already.
> 
> You also have to know your shit, because whatever is worthwhile on Craigslist or FB Marketplace that's priced low gets snapped up fast so you have to be ready with cash in hand.
> 
> ...


We have Mercatinomusicale.com here in Italy, it had fair prices, and I got great deals on it, but the Reverb bubble (more than the inflation imho) led to a price increase here too.
Until a year ago, you could snatch a pristine Ibanez JS1000 complete with case in the range between € 680 and € 800, now it's at least € 1200 (a steal anyway for a J-Craft, as it cost less than an Indo or Korean Schecter/Ibanez/LTD), but if you go on Reverb you start to find listings of Italian seller that are not promoting anymore on the local marketplace, as Reverb is honestly more profitable.


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## narad (Jan 5, 2023)

OmegaSlayer said:


> We have Mercatinomusicale.com here in Italy, it had fair prices, and I got great deals on it, but the Reverb bubble (more than the inflation imho) led to a price increase here too.
> Until a year ago, you could snatch a pristine Ibanez JS1000 complete with case in the range between € 680 and € 800, now it's at least € 1200 (a steal anyway for a J-Craft, as it cost less than an Indo or Korean Schecter/Ibanez/LTD), but if you go on Reverb you start to find listings of Italian seller that are not promoting anymore on the local marketplace, as Reverb is honestly more profitable.



I just started scouring Mercatino a couple months ago  Wound up following a random link for a Valley Arts image there... some of the prices were not bad, but I've seen a number of reasonable deals disappear and show up on Reverb for double (and not sell)


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## thraxil (Jan 5, 2023)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> 2.) Reverb's sales history tracking tool on their platform is primitive and inherently flawed.
> 
> When an item sells on Reverb, and it's an item that is in the sales history database, the price that gets logged into the sales history tracking (and that you see displayed on the little plot-point chart) is *not* the *actual, final price* that the item sold for. What *is* logged is the *final listing price* that the item was listed for at the time it sold, which is the same price that you see on the ended/closed listing when you go revisit the listing after the item sold.



Ah. Thanks. I haven't sold on Reverb, so that clears up a lot of the weirdness I've seen (I watch Parker guitars pretty obsessively and see some sell for incredibly high prices while a nearly identical guitar will sit at a much lower price unsold for months).


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## eaeolian (Jan 5, 2023)

Anything USA by Jackson has been pretty much priced out for me, especially given my somewhat odd tastes limiting me to pre-1990 Soloists. Truth is, given I prefer bolt-ons anyway, the Charvel Mexi line pretty much gets it done for me for sixes, and 7s are just going to be a custom anyway, so I'm not paying/waiting for them on one of those when I can get what I want from any number of custom builders for less.


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

For the sake of further context of this thread:

Listed at 2000€:
https://reverb.com/item/17283096-jackson-custom-shop-7-string-soloist-archtop?show_sold=true
Listed at 7500€:
https://reverb.com/item/61551466-jackson-custom-shop-arch-top-soloist-7-string-sl7

Listed at 3100€:
https://reverb.com/item/45040676-jackson-sl7-usa-custom-shop-soloist-artist-owned?show_sold=true
Listed at 8000€:
https://reverb.com/item/64512794-jackson-custom-shop-sl2h-soloist-7-string

Listed at 3000€:
https://reverb.com/item/34016130-jackson-soloist-7-string-custom-shop?show_sold=true 
Listed at 6000€:
https://reverb.com/item/50988470-ja...soloist-2012-trans-purple-ohsc?show_sold=true



eaeolian said:


> Anything USA by Jackson has been pretty much priced out for me, especially given my somewhat odd tastes limiting me to pre-1990 Soloists. Truth is, given I prefer bolt-ons anyway, the Charvel Mexi line pretty much gets it done for me for sixes, and 7s are just going to be a custom anyway, so I'm not paying/waiting for them on one of those when I can get what I want from any number of custom builders for less.



I've seen USA Warriors and Bulb signatures sell locally for 1,5k very recently. Problem is 7-strings are not very common here so I'm sadly stuck with Reverb.


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## narad (Jan 5, 2023)

eaeolian said:


> Anything USA by Jackson has been pretty much priced out for me, especially given my somewhat odd tastes limiting me to pre-1990 Soloists. Truth is, given I prefer bolt-ons anyway, the Charvel Mexi line pretty much gets it done for me for sixes, and 7s are just going to be a custom anyway, so I'm not paying/waiting for them on one of those when I can get what I want from any number of custom builders for less.


I have a super cheap ~1990/1991 MIJ dinky bolt-on for sale ;-)



Emperoff said:


> I've seen USA Warriors and Bulb signatures sell locally for 1,5k very recently. Problem is 7-strings are not very common here so I'm sadly stuck with Reverb.
> 
> The natural one on the right of the OP picture was listed at 2K locally, and got relisted recently at 7,5k by some greek dude on Reverb. I wish I had bought it back then, but another killer deal appeared and couldn't afford both guitars.



Dude, next time you see a USA warrior for 1.5k, buy it and call me. Don't even care about the color or aesthetic condition.


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## Fred the Shred (Jan 5, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, I think this is lost on folks. Not being able to add another very expensive, bespoke instrument to your collection isn't something "players" worry about, it's what hobbyist and enthusiasts deal in, unless you're part of the extreme minority that are professional musicians.



Even then, most professional musicians up to a point where they can afford to go "fuck it, why not?" with fancy instruments that really offer no objective advantages over their usual go-to guitars tend not to be sucked into that kind of thing all that much.

It's always been like this ever since I can remember, but there seems to be a sort of dick measuring competition with how luxurious one's gear actually is with the consequent inferiority complex from some of those that can't really afford those absurdly costly high end pieces of kit, and many variations come from this "you made it when you flaunt the same guitar, but 10x more expensive and full of aesthetic fluff" mentality, from "I don't deserve guitar X because I'm not good enough" to "I need [insert extremely expensive piece of kit] because gear is holding me back" (this one is sadly so common and leads to so much frustration if you get caught in that) to the well known around these parts elevation of a brand to such mythical heights heavenly choirs start singing whenever you play a chord on it and unicorns shit rainbows in approval.

There's a bazillion brands producing reasonbly priced guitars for all sorts of players, some hurting the wallet some more than others, so I agree with you wholeheartedly. My more than a few first gigs were made with my heavily modded first guitar, which was a cheapo Yamaha RGX112P, and I can say that shitzty sound or clams were never the fault of the cheapo guitar.


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

narad said:


> Dude, next time you see a USA warrior for 1.5k, buy it and call me. Don't even care about the color or aesthetic condition.



Looks like it was 1300€ 









Guitarra Jackson Warrior USA Select


En buen estado. Este modelo ya no se fabrica y costó unos 3300 euros con una espera de cuatro meses para que la fabricasen. Pastillas Seymour Duncan Invader, perfectas para metal. Puente Floyd Rose original. He grabado 5 discos con esta guitarra. La vendo porque ya no toco la guitarra. Regalo...




es.wallapop.com





I wouldn't have any problem arranging a shipping. It wouldn't be cheap, though, but still probably worth it.


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## odibrom (Jan 5, 2023)

I've only made one buy from Reverb and that was a Synergy Syn5050 poweramp recently (2 months ago) because it had a decent price and it's rare to find these poweramps in the used European market. Besides that, only one other buy from a foreign country, which turned out a pretty cool and decent deal, an Ibanez S5527 in almost new condition. All others have been local buys...


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## narad (Jan 5, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> Looks like it was 1300€
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's insane. I just bought a USA warrior. It was basically a bit more than that, AND a Diezel Herbert shipped to the otherside of the world.


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## eaeolian (Jan 5, 2023)

narad said:


> I have a super cheap ~1990/1991 MIJ dinky bolt-on for sale ;-)


Not as cheap as the one I bought in October.  If it had 7 strings, we could talk, but...
I mean, seriously, DR7Ts are going for $850. They're not worth that. I'd hate to see was a Mexi 7 string Dinky would go for.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 5, 2023)

narad said:


> I just started scouring Mercatino a couple months ago  Wound up following a random link for a Valley Arts image there... some of the prices were not bad, but I've seen a number of reasonable deals disappear and show up on Reverb for double (and not sell)


Out of curiosity I just checked Reverb to see how much costs today some stuff that I purchased through Mercatino

Paid 450 € for an Ibby XPT700, now one on Reverb is at 1500 €
Paid 400 € for an Ibby RBM10 Reb Beach Model (NOT the 100!), now one on Reverb at 1200 €, and it's the Korean
Paid 600 € for an Ibby RG2228, now some on Reverb at around 1200 €, and I think that's a steal, incredible that those guitars are still unpurchased


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## Robslalaina (Jan 5, 2023)

Wish I had never sold my 2027xvv. Could have put it up on the Verb for like 9,500 and yet totally own up to that dick move...


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## RevDrucifer (Jan 5, 2023)

narad said:


> No one except RevDrucifer needs a Norlin era Gibson. But only the Silverbursts LPC’s.



FTFY


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## odibrom (Jan 5, 2023)

Robslalaina said:


> Wish I had never sold my 2027xvv. Could have put it up on the Verb for like 9,500 and yet totally own up to that dick move...



I kind of feel you're joking on that Reverb price tag... you should have stopped your sentence at "I wish I had never sold my 2027XVV." All the rest of your post is accessory. 2027XVVs should only be sold to ME... just kidding a bit, I've 2 of those and those are my besties!...


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Out of curiosity I just checked Reverb to see how much costs today some stuff that I purchased through Mercatino
> 
> Paid 450 € for an Ibby XPT700, now one on Reverb is at 1500 €
> Paid 400 € for an Ibby RBM10 Reb Beach Model (NOT the 100!), now one on Reverb at 1200 €, and it's the Korean
> Paid 600 € for an Ibby RG2228, now some on Reverb at around 1200 €, and I think that's a steal, incredible that those guitars are still unpurchased



Do people on Mercatino usually ship overseas? I've found pretty cool stuff there but I'm always afraid to ask.

I'm on the hunt of a Brunetti MC2 and there are shitloads in there


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 5, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> Do people on Mercatino usually ship overseas? I've found pretty cool stuff there but I'm always afraid to ask.
> 
> I'm on the hunt of a Brunetti MC2 and there are shitloads in there


Mate, you're still in European Union, it's not exactly oversea
You can pay through SEPA
Try to ask, worse case scenario, people will tell you "no", we Italians bark a lot but don't bite (yet)


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Mate, you're still in European Union, it's not exactly overseas


 I'm SO used to ask that question to US sellers that didn't even think it


----------



## bostjan (Jan 5, 2023)

I've seen tons of AxeFX FM3's on various sites, used, listed for over what they sell for new, quite often. All the while, they are in stock and ready to ship from fractal. Even Guitar Center had a listing not too long ago for one of those entry-level Jackson 7 strings, a little dinged up, for $20 more than what *the same model* was listed for *on the same page*. Evidently, it sold, because it's gone now, and, again, the entire time it was listed, the new ones were in stock. So, yeah, the used music gear world has gone stupid.


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## odibrom (Jan 5, 2023)

My bassist already bought some stuff from Mercatino into Portugal, so that's a yes...


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## yan12 (Jan 5, 2023)

Supply and demand, same as always.

Most of those insane prices don't close there. It's like real estate.

A house sells for $550k. Then you find out there was 12k in concessions from the seller towards closing costs, etc.

The sale is recorded at 550k to keep the tax base nice and high, but 538k is what it really went for.

Same with gear. But if someone is willing to pay stupid money it's always best to be the seller. Follow that principle and you will have stupid money for guitars.


----------



## Agalloch (Jan 5, 2023)

bostjan said:


> I've seen tons of AxeFX FM3's on various sites, used, listed for over what they sell for new, quite often. All the while, they are in stock and ready to ship from fractal. Even Guitar Center had a listing not too long ago for one of those entry-level Jackson 7 strings, a little dinged up, for $20 more than what *the same model* was listed for *on the same page*. Evidently, it sold, because it's gone now, and, again, the entire time it was listed, the new ones were in stock. So, yeah, the used music gear world has gone stupid.




God, I hate Guitar Center/Musician's Friend used listings. Like, is it a company mandated policy that only one picture is allowed and it should be taken with a 2005 2MP Razr cellphone? How can ALL of the pictures be so profoundly terrible? And then the condition categories mean absolutely nothing because the people at GC just go, "yep, that's a gee-tar" and list it at some random price with some random condition before letting every 12 year old in the county manhandle it to squeak out the opening of "Raining Blood."

And let's not forget the description! Which is never more than about five words: "This appears to be a guitar." It's like they're actively trying NOT to sell used gear.

Fuck.

Rant over.


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## Emperoff (Jan 5, 2023)

bostjan said:


> I've seen tons of AxeFX FM3's on various sites, used, listed for over what they sell for new, quite often. All the while, they are in stock and ready to ship from fractal.



This is everyday in EU land for Fractal. Used prices are higher than brand new due to G66 wait times. That's why I'll probably never buy something Fractal


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## arasys (Jan 5, 2023)

I've been on the fence for a R9 or R0; but the prices are literally crazy and makes me wonder if they'll go down in a few years? Part of me wants to get one and "swear" I'd never buy another guitar again..but you know how that goes SSO..

With the current situation, I am afraid I will feel either buyer's remorse or regret for not getting one when Gibson reissues become even more expensive.


I remember back in 2007 ~ 2008 some EU dealers offered standard series with different colors for additional 200 euros, and back then ESP standard series were priced so nicely but I was a broke undergrad student (-_-). There was an ESP SV in dark blue color with fumé grey pinstripes.. I still wish I could get that guitar after all these years.


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## budda (Jan 5, 2023)

arasys said:


> I've been on the fence for a R9 or R0; but the prices are literally crazy and makes me wonder if they'll go down in a few years? Part of me wants to get one and "swear" I'd never buy another guitar again..but you know how that goes SSO..
> 
> With the current situation, I am afraid I will feel either buyer's remorse or regret for not getting one when Gibson reissues become even more expensive.
> 
> ...


Find one for 70% of new price and buy that one. 

I bought my R9 because it would be an easy resell. Its my nicest guitar so its heirloom now.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2023)

Agalloch said:


> God, I hate Guitar Center/Musician's Friend used listings. Like, is it a company mandated policy that only one picture is allowed and it should be taken with a 2005 2MP Razr cellphone? How can ALL of the pictures be so profoundly terrible? And then the condition categories mean absolutely nothing because the people at GC just go, "yep, that's a gee-tar" and list it at some random price with some random condition before letting every 12 year old in the county manhandle it to squeak out the opening of "Raining Blood."
> 
> And let's not forget the description! Which is never more than about five words: "This appears to be a guitar." It's like they're actively trying NOT to sell used gear.
> 
> ...



That's how Daddy's Junky Music was, and how Music Go Round are. 

If you want deals you have to deal with fast and dirty. 

This is how it was back before Reverb, or eBay, or even forums. A shitty pic, maybe, and a vague description at best. You had to know what you were looking at. Stuff sold cheap because no one knew what they really had. 

I love GC Used. Yeah, they don't coddle you, but if you know what you're doing and you're proactive you can grab some really good instruments for like half of their market value.


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## mpexus (Jan 6, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> This is everyday in EU land for Fractal. Used prices are higher than brand new due to G66 wait times. That's why I'll probably never buy something Fractal


Yeah used prices in Europe are mostly WTF... I keep seing used FM3's for 1200+... they cost new 1450 .. why the F would I be buying it used?


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## Surveyor 777 (Jan 6, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's how Daddy's Junky Music was, and how Music Go Round are.
> 
> If you want deals you have to deal with fast and dirty.
> 
> ...



Yep, same here. I've gotten some great deals on used guitars with GC (some older Ibanez). Listed as one model but was actually a nicer, higher model.

However, I've seen the opposite happen also. They list a guitar as being a certain model. I might not be familiar with that model number so I look it up. After seeing it and looking at the specs, then going back to GC, I see they have the wrong model number listed and have priced it too high.

But in my experience with Guitar Center, if I found a guitar I was interested in and they only had one photo or a crummy photo, I've called them and had them send me better photos directly. That has worked in all but one occasion.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2023)

Surveyor 777 said:


> Yep, same here. I've gotten some great deals on used guitars with GC (some older Ibanez). Listed as one model but was actually a nicer, higher model.
> 
> However, I've seen the opposite happen also. They list a guitar as being a certain model. I might not be familiar with that model number so I look it up. After seeing it and looking at the specs, then going back to GC, I see they have the wrong model number listed and have priced it too high.
> 
> But in my experience with Guitar Center, if I found a guitar I was interested in and they only had one photo or a crummy photo, I've called them and had them send me better photos directly. That has worked in all but one occasion.



Yeah, most GCs have been very helpful when it comes to buying used gear. I've had a couple less than stellar interactions, but I just called later and got a more helpful rep on the phone. 

Price corrections are somewhat natural, after a while they'll start marking it down, but again, if you get them on the phone they're usually fairly receptive when you call out incorrect ads. 

I think a lot of folks just don't want to pick up the phone or do the leg work for some of the better deals.


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## Agalloch (Jan 6, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's how Daddy's Junky Music was, and how Music Go Round are.
> 
> If you want deals you have to deal with fast and dirty.
> 
> ...



Definitely. Though, I find that there's more variation with Music Go Round. I've seen some listings that have a _ton_ of pretty good pictures. Sure, no specs, but at least there are pictures that aren't super blurry. The weird thing about GC is how uniformly terrible their used listings are. But it's pretty much the same with their new listings, where they often don't take pictures of the actual guitar, using stock images instead. So you're always rolling the dice.

You're right that you can find some solid deals if you're willing to take the risk. I found a great deal on a Jackson USA Misha from the used section. Of course, despite being listed as "excellent" it had a neck pocket crack which was exactly what I was worried about. I couldn't get over it, but the return was easy.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2023)

Agalloch said:


> Definitely. Though, I find that there's more variation with Music Go Round. I've seen some listings that have a _ton_ of pretty good pictures. Sure, no specs, but at least there are pictures that aren't super blurry. The weird thing about GC is how uniformly terrible their used listings are. But it's pretty much the same with their new listings, where they often don't take pictures of the actual guitar, using stock images instead. So you're always rolling the dice.
> 
> You're right that you can find some solid deals if you're willing to take the risk. I found a great deal on a Jackson USA Misha from the used section. Of course, despite being listed as "excellent" it had a neck pocket crack which was exactly what I was worried about. I couldn't get over it, but the return was easy.



MGR locations are all franchises, so there's going to be significant variation in the quality and accuracy of listings, it's the nature of the beast. 

While not franchises, GCs can also have huge variations in staff. 

Used gear has a relatively low margin, so it's all about putting in the least amount of time and effort while still getting the job done. Considering how quickly stuff moves, it's obviously working well enough.

With used gear in general, always assume at least one condition level below the lowest you think it could be. Remember, just because there are tons of nice pictures doesn't mean they were taken recently...or of the exact instrument.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jan 7, 2023)

So...all the talking led to me to a search spree.
One of the things that bamboozled me was seeing second hand Vinteras going for € 200 less than new ones.
We're talking of Mexican made stuff, and I'm not speaking about quality, but about value retention.


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## dmlinger (Jan 7, 2023)

arasys said:


> I've been on the fence for a R9 or R0; but the prices are literally crazy and makes me wonder if they'll go down in a few years? Part of me wants to get one and "swear" I'd never buy another guitar again..but you know how that goes SSO..
> 
> With the current situation, I am afraid I will feel either buyer's remorse or regret for not getting one when Gibson reissues become even more expensive.
> 
> ...


I have a G0 from 2008 which is essentially a Guitar Center special run of R0s that had plain tops rather than figured. They really are that great. Fit, finish, sound, components, fretwork, it’s all there. An R9 from the Murphy Lab is on my list if I can find one for the right price. 

I don’t think we will see New prices come down. You very rarely see companies go backwards unless there is also a reduction in cost or specs. Most big guitar manufacturers held by private equity. I work for a company that’s owned by PE and they are solely focused on P&L. There is no volunteering to lower sales prices, even if cost/specs lower. That’s just an opportunity to keep the price the same and increase margins. 

IMO the genie is out of the bottle on prices across all industries. We’ve shown that people will pay more. Unless there is a legitimate, widespread recession similar to 2008 where people are losing their homes and unemployment is high, guitar and other consumer discretionary prices will stay where they are now.


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## Emperoff (Jan 7, 2023)

OmegaSlayer said:


> So...all the talking led to me to a search spree.
> One of the things that bamboozled me was seeing second hand Vinteras going for € 200 less than new ones.
> We're talking of Mexican made stuff, and I'm not speaking about quality, but about value retention.



That's basically anything you search on Reverb. 25% off retail price (if you're lucky).


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## ShredmasterD (Jan 7, 2023)

All bubbles burst. Some will be left holding the bag.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Jan 7, 2023)

IME the bubble has already burst, sellers just aren't willing to accept it yet. My feed on Reverb is full of guitars at prices that would have been quick sales 18 months ago sitting for months. Eventually they quietly lower the price another 20% and sell or they just sit. Lots of new guitars like this too - why pay the pandemic tax when someone else has already paid it?

I sold off a few guitars late last year and they sat for a month to a month and a half before selling. That is unheard of in the COVID market for the prices I had them set at - one got up close to 200 watchers before selling where the highest I've ever had on an ad before it sold was about 30. Everyone is just waiting for you to be desperate enough to give them a screaming deal rather than feeling the need to jump on an ok to good deal. I'd hate to be in the position to have to offload an R9 right now I bought new because, as Budda said, you're only going to get ~70% of list for it and that's a full 2k loss plus Reverb fees and shipping.

Now that there is supply and less demand you have to provide strong incentive to buy used from a random yahoo and the random yahoos are slowly finding that out - myself included.


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## dmlinger (Jan 7, 2023)

ShredmasterD said:


> All bubbles burst. Some will be left holding the bag.


Lol we are talking about guitars. These aren’t equities or real estate. When was the last time there was a “bubble” that burst in a market for someone’s hobby? I was in college and working at a golf shop from 2005-2009. Prices for golf equipment didn’t go down during the recession. It stayed the same or went up. Sure people bought less of it, but prices didn’t go down. 

This isn’t wallstreetbets. There are no bag holders. Unless you’re a guy buying some rare collector piece for $10k that falls out of fashion, there are no bag holders. Prices of normal gear aren’t just going to drop 30-40% on regular gear. Just isn’t going to happen. 

Say you bought a guitar at todays market price of $3k, play it, and turn around and sell it for $2400. Even at a 20% loss that’s hardly bag holding. That’s what people with GAS do. We’ve been doing that shit forever. 

The real bitch of selling gear is Reverb fees and shipping. In the above example, even if you sold it for $3k which is “break even,” you’re still paying $150 in Reverb fees and probably eating another $150 in shipping. That’s $10%.


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## ZeroS1gnol (Jan 7, 2023)

Supply and demand? What demand? To echo what Metaldestroyerdennis said, I'm not sensing any willingness from buyers to buy my RG7420 that I have had listed for the last six months, for a reasonable price. I sold some other gear recently, bunch of pedals and it was mostly the same. Everyone interested low balling and skipping it if I didn't offer a ridiculously low price. It was a game of patience, to move the stuff to people that actually had some sense in them... or the money for it. Reverb prices don't seem to reflect realistic pricing IMO.


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## dmlinger (Jan 7, 2023)

I’ll reply in a new post to clarify what I just posted.

I don’t think there is a bubble with NEW gear or models that are in current production. For example, buying a current model Ibanez vs the same one pre-owned. 

I mention that bc I think we are on the same page when it comes to older models that aren’t made any longer. That’s what I was trying to convey with the $10k collectors example.

Edit: spelling


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## nedheftyfunk (Jan 7, 2023)

Emperoff said:


> There _were_.
> 
> And all of them had TOM bridges. I would have a Stars Kelly ages ago if they had FR. They were also "japan-only" models, and usually very rare to come by.



I don't know if they made any, but you could get an oiginal floyd on a semi-custom 7 string Stars as an option, though it was expensive. I have a quote for one on a Kelly from 2007, which I didn't follow through on. For posterity, here's the quote:

Base guitar KE7-J2B --- 120,000Yen
BODY TOP: Quilt maple veneer, transparent black --- 17,600Yen
HEADSTOCK LAMINATE: Matching head --- 5,280Yen
FINGERBOARD INLAYS: Pearl reverse sharkfin --- 13,200Yen
Floyed rose Original/Black parts --- 39,200Yen
Ebony Fret board --- 4,400Yen
Jackson Pearl logo(head) --- 6,160Yen
Hard case(exchange fee soft case to hard case) --- 14,400Yen
===============================================================
The total --- 220,240Yen

I bought one with a Tom instead. Unlike the USA guitars, the veneer is paper-thin one rather than a top.


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## ShredmasterD (Jan 7, 2023)

dmlinger said:


> Lol we are talking about guitars. These aren’t equities or real estate. When was the last time there was a “bubble” that burst in a market for someone’s hobby? I was in college and working at a golf shop from 2005-2009. Prices for golf equipment didn’t go down during the recession. It stayed the same or went up. Sure people bought less of it, but prices didn’t go down.
> 
> This isn’t wallstreetbets. There are no bag holders. Unless you’re a guy buying some rare collector piece for $10k that falls out of fashion, there are no bag holders. Prices of normal gear aren’t just going to drop 30-40% on regular gear. Just isn’t going to happen.
> 
> ...


the price increases on gear is not sustainable. it is a bubble. every non big box music store owner i talked to say the same thing. in fact those where their words.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2023)

ShredmasterD said:


> the price increases on gear is not sustainable. it is a bubble. every non big box music store owner i talked to say the same thing. in fact those where their words.



Yeah, but they've been saying that since the 90's. 

The manufacturers are just going to keep introducing cheaper and cheaper sub-lines made cheaper and cheaper as the big OEMs move operations to countries with even lower HDI scores. 

There's no bubble if they can keep making stuff cheaper to maintain movement. 

The small independent shops that don't specialize are dying fast, and it's mostly the internet's fault as MF and Sweetwater and Thomann control like 75% of instrument retail globally.


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## Emperoff (Jan 7, 2023)

nedheftyfunk said:


> I don't know if they made any, but you could get an oiginal floyd on a semi-custom 7 string Stars as an option, though it was expensive. I have a quote for one on a Kelly from 2007, which I didn't follow through on. For posterity, here's the quote:
> 
> Base guitar KE7-J2B --- 120,000Yen
> BODY TOP: Quilt maple veneer, transparent black --- 17,600Yen
> ...



Yeah, I knew about the semi-custom option, but never saw any. To this day they're probably rarer than a USA 7-string with a floyd, and about as expensive.


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## ShredmasterD (Jan 7, 2023)

oligopolies are are a bad thing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2023)

ShredmasterD said:


> oligopolies are are a bad thing.



Agreed, but that's not stopping Sweetwater from taking over the world. 

In 10 or 15 years they'll probably buy GC/MF.


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## ShredmasterD (Jan 7, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Agreed, but that's not stopping Sweetwater from taking over the world.
> 
> In 10 or 15 years they'll probably buy GC/MF.


the once darling of the instrument and music gear online retail world has become the new boss, same as the old boss. and i think they will do it in less than 5. they are more solid , financially.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jan 7, 2023)

dmlinger said:


> When was the last time there was a “bubble” that burst in a market for someone’s hobby?


Beanie Babies (whew...there's a throwback), the VHS collector market, the DVD collector market, the vinyl collector market (before the vinyl resurgence of the 2010s, but that bubble is about to pop again), the gun collector market, kit cars and vintage car restorations, etc.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2023)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Beanie Babies (whew...there's a throwback), the VHS collector market, the DVD collector market, the vinyl collector market (before the vinyl resurgence of the 2010s, but that bubble is about to pop again), the gun collector market, kit cars and vintage car restorations, etc.



Collections aren't exactly hobbies, you can play guitar and not collect them, and most of those examples were driven purely by nostalgia. 

Again, folks have been predicting a "guitar price bubble burst" since at least the 90's. Heck, folks thought America guitars were fucked in the 70's when the Japanese stuff was getting really really good and really really available. 

I'm all for it happening, I'd love buying stuff for cheaper, especially since retirement is starting to become a reality, but I don't think it's going to happen, not as long as supply issues, natural and decided, are at play. 

Guitars in general are still very cheap, and the cheap stuff is so much better than it was even a decade ago.


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## dmlinger (Jan 7, 2023)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The manufacturers are just going to keep introducing cheaper and cheaper sub-lines made cheaper and cheaper as the big OEMs move operations to countries with even lower HDI scores.
> 
> There's no bubble if they can keep making stuff cheaper to maintain movement.



This is exactly what I was thinking. 

You’ll have to keep buying higher up the price chain to get the equivalent of guitars in lower tiers years before.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2023)

dmlinger said:


> This is exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> You’ll have to keep buying higher up the price chain to get the equivalent of guitars in lower tiers years before.



I don't think that's entirely accurate. 

Maybe brand for brand, and especially origin for origin. 

But your actual dollar goes much further as far as quality and features than it just about ever has. If you don't care about the name on the headstock or what country it was built you can get a decent instrument for nearly nickels on the dime as recently as the early 00's.


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## Shask (Jan 7, 2023)

The prices of everything is getting crazy. There is no way I would pay some of the used prices I see these days on gear. I see stuff at like 400% what I paid for it like 4 years ago.

I guess the good thing is that cheap stuff is better than ever. I have tons of nice guitars, but one of my favorites right now is a cheapie Schecter I bought for like $250.


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## budda (Jan 7, 2023)

Shask said:


> The prices of everything is getting crazy. There is no way I would pay some of the used prices I see these days on gear. I see stuff at like 400% what I paid for it like 4 years ago.
> 
> I guess the good thing is that cheap stuff is better than ever. I have tons of nice guitars, but one of my favorites right now is a cheapie Schecter I bought for like $250.


This leaves out the world changing drastically between today and 4 years ago though.

Some stuff is still being sold at 2016 used prices - snap it up if it's what you were looking for.


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## Shask (Jan 7, 2023)

budda said:


> This leaves out the world changing drastically between today and 4 years ago though.
> 
> Some stuff is still being sold at 2016 used prices - snap it up if it's what you were looking for.


The items I am talking about have not changed in 4 years. Like, say 90s rack processors. They existed the same way 4 years ago, only now they are $500 and not $100. No reason why these should have changed that much.

I am not talking about stuff you cant find because they are behind in manufacturing due to supply chain issues.


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## budda (Jan 7, 2023)

Shask said:


> The items I am talking about have not changed in 4 years. Like, say 90s rack processors. They existed the same way 4 years ago, only now they are $500 and not $100. No reason why these should have changed that much.
> 
> I am not talking about stuff you cant find because they are behind in manufacturing due to supply chain issues.


Oh that's just online hype. You're on this forum, you've seen it


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## Shask (Jan 7, 2023)

budda said:


> Oh that's just online hype. You're on this forum, you've seen it


The hype has gotten crazy, lol.


----------



## budda (Jan 7, 2023)

Shask said:


> The hype has gotten crazy, lol.


It was always crazy.


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## Emperoff (Jan 8, 2023)

Shask said:


> I guess the good thing is that cheap stuff is better than ever. I have tons of nice guitars, but one of my favorites right now is a cheapie Schecter I bought for like $250.


They are indeed. Back in the day the price gap between cheap shitty instruments and high end ones was way smaller, but the things in between weren't half decent up to maybe 600€.

Nowadays you can buy one hell of a guitar with that money, but the high end guitars you could buy at 1800€ are now at 4800€ 

I guess that what pisses me off the most is that I can no longer buy guitars as good as the ones I already own. I can only downgrade.


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## OmegaSlayer (Monday at 12:49 AM)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Agreed, but that's not stopping Sweetwater from taking over the world.
> 
> In 10 or 15 years they'll probably buy GC/MF.


I wish they could open business here in Europe so that we could have an alternative to Thomann
Mostly because of the customer service, because Thomann's one is lame
Then for availability of items (it's 4 months that the Gibson multi tool is not available around Europe)


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## MaxOfMetal (Monday at 1:21 AM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I wish they could open business here in Europe so that we could have an alternative to Thomann
> Mostly because of the customer service, because Thomann's one is lame
> Then for availability of items (it's 4 months that the Gibson multi tool is not available around Europe)



Sweetwater isn't much better these days. 

The big American retailers aren't hyped to enter Europe because of stricter consumer protection laws and hostile regulators.


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## OmegaSlayer (Monday at 2:40 AM)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sweetwater isn't much better these days.
> 
> The big American retailers aren't hyped to enter Europe because of stricter consumer protection laws and hostile regulators.


In Europe even the floor you walk on is hostile like a Pantera song


----------



## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 6:49 AM)

Emperoff said:


> Although that cracked me up, I don't completely agree. The natural mahogany one at the right is a very utilitarian looking instrument that went from 2k to 7,5k.
> 
> I don't need a gaudy graphic or ultra-fancy 1000 year chinese tree top. I'd fucking take a gloss black USA soloist 7-string no problem if they didn't go for 7k used.


A lot of "workhorses" that are widely used by touring guitarists, from brands like Jackson and Ibanez, certainly seem to have increased by more than inflation.


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## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 7:32 AM)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's okay to have cheaper gear, it doesn't make anyone more or less of a guitar player, it just means exactly what it is: you've put less money in. That's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that.


It's also ok to "get a used Prestige".


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## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 7:44 AM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Out of curiosity I just checked Reverb to see how much costs today some stuff that I purchased through Mercatino
> 
> Paid 450 € for an Ibby XPT700, now one on Reverb is at 1500 €
> Paid 400 € for an Ibby RBM10 Reb Beach Model (NOT the 100!), now one on Reverb at 1200 €, and it's the Korean
> Paid 600 € for an Ibby RG2228, now some on Reverb at around 1200 €, and I think that's a steal, incredible that those guitars are still unpurchased


Did you buy those guitars at those prices recently or years ago?

I only paid £210 for my XPT700 (in great condition) back in about 2011. Not so long ago, I saw some in worse condition sell for circa £800-900, but I had assumed the re-release of the Xiphos would have killed interest in XPT700s. A brand new XPTB620 is less than €1500...

As frustrating as it is to see guitars I want at high prices, there is something reassuring about knowing I could quickly sell one of my Ibbys at a significant profit if I needed the money.

Just had a browse on Mercatino (had never heard of it) and now I have a bad case of GAS. The prices do seem more reasonable than Reverb. I presume I'd have to add on 20% VAT + 3.5% customs (unlike pre-BREXIT), in addition to shipping costs.


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## OmegaSlayer (Monday at 9:04 AM)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Did you buy those guitars at those prices recently or years ago?
> 
> I only paid £210 for my XPT700 (in great condition) back in about 2011. Not so long ago, I saw some in worse condition sell for circa £800-900, but I had assumed the re-release of the Xiphos would have killed interest in XPT700s. A brand new XPTB620 is less than €1500...
> 
> ...


It was between 2010 and 2012
Don't you guys have anything in the vein of that in UK (or other European countries for what matters)?
It seems crazy to me to have Mercatino, because I really feel that musically speaking, and I mean from music culture and scene to gear availability, Italy is the most underdeveloped Country in Europe


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## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 10:00 AM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> It was between 2010 and 2012
> Don't you guys have anything in the vein of that in UK (or other European countries for what matters)?
> It seems crazy to me to have Mercatino, because I really feel that musically speaking, and I mean from *music culture and scene to gear availability, Italy is the most underdeveloped Country in Europe*


Italian power metal disagrees 

(I'm listening to Vision Divine as I post this)


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## dr_game0ver (Monday at 10:12 AM)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Italian power metal disagrees
> 
> (I'm listening to Vision Divine as I post this)


...Time to get a spin on my copy of The Perfect Machine.

Also, try to get a guitar in France that's not a dad guitar or a cheap strat copie...


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF (Monday at 10:25 AM)

The OP mentioned Diablo Guitars: they have a refinished "USA" BC Rich Warlock rebuild with a secondary neck (no clue where from) listed for $1999 on Reverb. The ultraviolet refinish looks solid but WTF... it's a rebuilt instrument with no offered verifiable proof of what it is claimed to be. There are some far more wild listings but that one really pissed me off. There is a lot of truth to people posting high prices to drive offers up, aside from flipping folks. The Norlin Era LPs have started to come down a little, but they are still way over valued. Signature models? Forget it. Jackson, Gibson, among others have been outrageous for a few years now with no end in sight. 

I used to work at GC and can attest to willingness to push used gear. It's one of the last places in the States where you can openly haggle quite a bit, and I always peak at used stuff because there are some seriously good deals to be found, even not weighed against inflation. I've picked up more used pedals and cabs from killer brands through GC and sometimes Sam Ash. You just gotta be shrewd and keep a keen eye out for whatever you fancy. For instance, I found a used but flawless Zilla Fatbaby 1x12 for just under $400, loaded with a G12 Anniversary. Perfect for completing a mini-stack I wanted for the JJ Jr. You can chat down cabs easier than most things because of floor space, but there are sometimes really good amp and guitar deals. The market is checked between MSRP, Reverb, and Ebay, although most shops wisely offer and mark well under because they won't be able to move it otherwise. Not the best seller's market, but solid to get a good buy. Bonus if you can find a salesperson who gives a shit and actually knows gear (one of the few reasons I liked working there, back when you could commission).


----------



## mpexus (Monday at 10:45 AM)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Sweetwater isn't much better these days.
> 
> The big American retailers aren't hyped to enter Europe because of stricter consumer protection laws and hostile regulators.


If by hostile you mean caring for the consumer right like EVERYTHING having 2 year warranty MINIMUM and if what you got was not what was Announced... then yes they are Hostile. We just call it Protection against scum shitty companies practices


----------



## eaeolian (Monday at 11:17 AM)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think that's entirely accurate.
> 
> Maybe brand for brand, and especially origin for origin.
> 
> But your actual dollar goes much further as far as quality and features than it just about ever has. If you don't care about the name on the headstock or what country it was built you can get a decent instrument for nearly nickels on the dime as recently as the early 00's.


This. I see the Cort Suhr-alikes going for $450, with compound radius, decent hardware, and decent pickups. Even if you change out for higher-end hardware you're spending less than a grand, and while it won't be a Suhr, it'll be a good guitar.


----------



## eaeolian (Monday at 11:20 AM)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> The OP mentioned Diablo Guitars: they have a refinished "USA" BC Rich Warlock rebuild with a secondary neck (no clue where from) listed for $1999 on Reverb. The ultraviolet refinish looks solid but WTF... it's a rebuilt instrument with no offered verifiable proof of what it is claimed to be. There are some far more wild listings but that one really pissed me off. There is a lot of truth to people posting high prices to drive offers up, aside from flipping folks. The Norlin Era LPs have started to come down a little, but they are still way over valued. Signature models? Forget it. Jackson, Gibson, among others have been outrageous for a few years now with no end in sight.


No one is building more of the '80s/'90s guitars, so even questionable lineages start to become attractive to people who are now in their '50s and have money. (Full disclosure: I am one of these people). I wouldn't buy it - and I'll bet it's assembled from parts that were sold off from the Class Axe era - but someone will. Diablo makes money.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Monday at 11:29 AM)

mpexus said:


> If by hostile you mean caring for the consumer right like EVERYTHING having 2 year warranty MINIMUM and if what you got was not what was Announced... then yes they are Hostile. We just call it Protection against scum shitty companies practices



What I mean is they're hostile to American companies acting like American companies. Which is good, unless you're GC/MF or Sweetwater who view it as too much of a risk.


----------



## MAJ Meadows SF (Monday at 11:50 AM)

eaeolian said:


> No one is building more of the '80s/'90s guitars, so even questionable lineages start to become attractive to people who are now in their '50s and have money. (Full disclosure: I am one of these people). I wouldn't buy it - and I'll bet it's assembled from parts that were sold off from the Class Axe era - but someone will. Diablo makes money.


Absolutely agreed!


----------



## 5dollarbrownie (Monday at 2:53 PM)

You are speaking truth. Everyone thinks their used crap is worth 5k. I miss the days when you could get 90s fujigen Ibbys for 300$


----------



## Emperoff (Monday at 3:00 PM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> It was between 2010 and 2012
> Don't you guys have anything in the vein of that in UK (or other European countries for what matters)?
> It seems crazy to me to have Mercatino, because I really feel that musically speaking, and I mean from music culture and scene to gear availability, Italy is the most underdeveloped Country in Europe



As mentioned, we have some stuff here, but not entirely focused on music gear. There is an app/website called "Sounds Market", but as far as I know very few people uses it.

So maybe Italy is not as musically underdeveloped as you think!


----------



## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 3:16 PM)

eaeolian said:


> This. I see the Cort Suhr-alikes going for $450, with compound radius, decent hardware, and decent pickups. Even if you change out for higher-end hardware you're spending less than a grand, and while it won't be a Suhr, it'll be a good guitar.


My first guitar was a Cort strat that should have been circa £250 but was on sale for £120 (new, but floor model). It's nothing special, but is so much nicer than a more expensive Squier. As vintage tremolo systems go (I despise them), the stock Wilkinson (by Gotoh) VS100 bridge is more than adequate.


----------



## Romeo Knight (Monday at 3:47 PM)

@Neon_Knight_
Just found out about this thread.
Yes, it's totally weird and it's one of the reasons why I basically lost interest in hunting US Custom Jacksons over the course of the last few years. I'll keep my unicorns which are everything you'd expect from a US Custom, great players and awesomely looking, however even the most expensive one I ever purchased (pic attached), an amazing SL7 Mike Shannon master build and complete piece of art, I got for less than 3.5k. The other SL7 you mentioned in the original post I sold Patrick Sheridan for 2.75k AFAIR, and I got it for 2.6k a few years before.
I'm selling a HT7 Juggernaut Lambo Orange Limited Edition for 2.8k right now which I think is pretty reasonable.
I hope this trend stops at one point since I feel like it spreads to other brands just as bad - just look at some Skervesens, or ESPs from that Indonesian shop.


----------



## Emperoff (Monday at 4:06 PM)

Romeo Knight said:


> @Neon_Knight_
> Just found out about this thread.
> Yes, it's totally weird and it's one of the reasons why I basically lost interest in hunting US Custom Jacksons over the course of the last few years. I'll keep my unicorns which are everything you'd expect from a US Custom, great players and awesomely looking, however even the most expensive one I ever purchased (pic attached), an amazing SL7 Mike Shannon master build and complete piece of art, I got for less than 3.5k. The other SL7 you mentioned in the original post I sold Patrick Sheridan for 2.75k AFAIR, and I got it for 2.6k a few years before.
> I'm selling a HT7 Juggernaut Lambo Orange Limited Edition for 2.8k right now which I think is pretty reasonable.
> I hope this trend stops at one point since I feel like it spreads to other brands just as bad - just look at some Skervesens, or ESPs from that Indonesian shop.



I wish I had the money back then. It would have NEVER shifted hands again 

I had it on my Reverb feed for months and was very sad when I heard who was sold to (mainly because that mean the guitar was no longer in Europe). And now, lo and behold, is listed at 8k.


----------



## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 4:06 PM)

Romeo Knight said:


> @Neon_Knight_
> Just found out about this thread.
> Yes, it's totally weird and it's one of the reasons why I basically lost interest in hunting US Custom Jacksons over the course of the last few years. I'll keep my unicorns which are everything you'd expect from a US Custom, great players and awesomely looking, however even the most expensive one I ever purchased (pic attached), an amazing SL7 Mike Shannon master build and complete piece of art, I got for less than 3.5k. The other SL7 you mentioned in the original post I sold Patrick Sheridan for 2.75k AFAIR, and I got it for 2.6k a few years before.
> I'm selling a HT7 Juggernaut Lambo Orange Limited Edition for 2.8k right now which I think is pretty reasonable.
> I hope this trend stops at one point since I feel like it spreads to other brands just as bad - just look at some Skervesens, or ESPs from that Indonesian shop.


The original post was by @Emperoff not me.


----------



## odibrom (Monday at 4:08 PM)

Emperoff said:


> As mentioned, we have some stuff here, but not entirely focused on music gear. There is an app/website called "Sounds Market", but as far as I know very few people uses it.
> 
> So maybe Italy is not as musically underdeveloped as you think!



My dear friend, don't tell me you don't know www.guitarristas.info? They have a classified forum that is quite loaded. On your neighbor country closer to the Atlantic, you can also find OLX.PT, which also has a dedicated area for musical instruments. OLX also has a Polish site... and I'm sure there are more within the EU to browse...


----------



## Neon_Knight_ (Monday at 4:11 PM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> It seems crazy to me to have Mercatino, because I really feel that musically speaking, and I mean from music culture and scene to gear availability, Italy is the most underdeveloped Country in Europe


I'm not aware of anything other than Reverb, eBay & Gumtree. (Gumtree is a general free ad website - not guitar / instrument specific)


----------



## Emperoff (Monday at 4:28 PM)

odibrom said:


> My dear friend, don't tell me you don't know www.guitarristas.info? They have a classified forum that is quite loaded. On your neighbor country closer to the Atlantic, you can also find OLX.PT, which also has a dedicated area for musical instruments. OLX also has a Polish site... and I'm sure there are more within the EU to browse...



Of course I do, but most people at Guitarristas.info have been following Reverb pricing lately and I rarely ever buy from there either. It's just a message board like this one, and not a true classifieds app/site. There is also no seller protection unless seller enables it, and there have been many cases of fraud since most people here don't use PayPal.

I have bought some stuff from there, but I mostly use it to sell things.


----------



## odibrom (Monday at 6:25 PM)

Emperoff said:


> Of course I do, but most people at Guitarristas.info have been following Reverb pricing lately and I rarely ever buy from there either. It's just a message board like this one, and not a true classifieds app/site. There is also no seller protection unless seller enables it, and there have been many cases of fraud since most people here don't use PayPal.
> 
> I have bought some stuff from there, but I mostly use it to sell things.


A dedicated music instruments related classifieds besides Reverb with user buyer/seller protection...? I've seen a few trying to get momentum, but never heard anything of them since... It requires some serious pockets in the background and I doubt there are many folks out there willing to risk it.


----------



## JohnnyCNote (Monday at 9:46 PM)

I guess I’m one of many who'd either spend that sort of cash on a _really _nice custom job, or a very nice Schecter (like an Armageddon) and a top of the line amp head and a couple of speaker cabinets. Maybe if I had stacks of cash collecting dust and I were crazy bored, but until I reach that level, it’s too remote even to speculate…


----------



## OmegaSlayer (Monday at 10:45 PM)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Italian power metal disagrees
> 
> (I'm listening to Vision Divine as I post this)


The true Italian masterpiece is Labyrinth's Return To Heaven Denied imho
And yeah, you can't even try in your sane mind days to compare Italy to UK or Germany


----------



## narad (Monday at 10:50 PM)

eaeolian said:


> No one is building more of the '80s/'90s guitars, so even questionable lineages start to become attractive to people who are now in their '50s and have money. (Full disclosure: I am one of these people). I wouldn't buy it - and I'll bet it's assembled from parts that were sold off from the Class Axe era - but someone will. Diablo makes money.



Yea, Diablo is probably the closest thing we have in the US to Essex Recording Studio.


----------



## Romeo Knight (Tuesday at 2:10 AM)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> The original post was by @Emperoff not me.


Right, just realized that.


----------



## mpexus (Tuesday at 6:02 AM)

odibrom said:


> On your neighbor country closer to the Atlantic, you can also find OLX.PT, which also has a dedicated area for musical instruments. OLX also has a Polish site... and I'm sure there are more within the EU to browse...


It's called Leboncoin in France but good luck having french sellers selling anything to a foreigner and shipping it outside of France


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## OmegaSlayer (Tuesday at 6:16 AM)

mpexus said:


> It's called Leboncoin in France but good luck having french sellers selling anything to a foreigner and shipping it outside of France


Because we Europeans love each other more now that there's the European Union.
I'm anti-Unionist (not anti-Europeist) so I'm obviously biased, but I'm old enough to have witnessed that relations between various Countries are more tense now than before €.


----------



## Neon_Knight_ (Tuesday at 8:52 AM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> The true Italian masterpiece is Labyrinth's Return To Heaven Denied imho


Agreed! 


OmegaSlayer said:


> And yeah, you can't even try in your sane mind days to compare Italy to UK or Germany


There's a big difference between "not top two" and "most underdeveloped Country in Europe" haha!


----------



## OmegaSlayer (Tuesday at 9:04 AM)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Agreed!
> 
> There's a big difference between "not top two" and "most underdeveloped Country in Europe" haha!


Sweden, Finland, Norway, Netherland, Poland...
But I don't mean only regarding quality music output, but for the importance of music in the society at a cultural level.


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## Emperoff (Tuesday at 10:11 AM)

narad said:


> Yea, Diablo is probably the closest thing we have in the US to Essex Recording Studio.



Yeah, after I mentioned how he doubled the asking price of the Letchford CS7 in the Jackson FB group he came in saying that he bought it from Pat Sheridan and he cares su much for artists that he gave him a very fair price. So he has to sell it higher to be able to support artists. Bullshit at its finest. Saddest part was people actually believed him.

Also. Pat Sheridan, wherever you are, please stop buying USA CS7 Jacksons to later flip them to these scalpers. It's the third already, goddammit. Either stop buying them or just keep them


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Tuesday at 10:29 AM)

5dollarbrownie said:


> You are speaking truth. Everyone thinks their used crap is worth 5k. I miss the days when you could get 90s fujigen Ibbys for 300$











Romeo Knight said:


> @Neon_Knight_
> I hope this trend stops at one point since I feel like it spreads to other brands just as bad - just look at some Skervesens, or ESPs from that Indonesian shop.


Dude, you talking about HiEndGuitar in Indonesia? Fuck that shop.



narad said:


> Yea, Diablo is probably the closest thing we have in the US to Essex Recording Studio.


But nowhere near as bad. The guy who runs Essex is a legitimate moron who doesn't even know what he is actually selling half of the time. Fuck him too.


----------



## mpexus (Tuesday at 1:52 PM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Because we Europeans love each other more now that there's the European Union.
> I'm anti-Unionist (not anti-Europeist) so I'm obviously biased, but I'm old enough to have witnessed that relations between various Countries are more tense now than before €.


Actually it is because French are in general super suspicious of anything that falls out of their old ways.
They are like that in mostly anything... Paypal is still "Evil" for majority of sellers... they prefer fucking Checks... yes WTF fucking Checks in plain 2023... I haven't used a Check since mid 90's so when I had to do one to rent my Apartment I had to ask the Agency dude to do it for me.
They use Leboncoin a lot. Tell them about Reverb they have no clue what it is. Mostly I believe is due to their lack of English. Younger generations are better but they get shy trying to speak English because of their heavy accents, but large majority of people above 40's speak barely or simply no English at all.


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## Fabrice (Tuesday at 3:20 PM)

mpexus said:


> Actually it is because French are in general super suspicious of anything that falls out of their old ways.
> They are like that in mostly anything... Paypal is still "Evil" for majority of sellers... they prefer fucking Checks... yes WTF fucking Checks in plain 2023... I haven't used a Check since mid 90's so when I had to do one to rent my Apartment I had to ask the Agency dude to do it for me.
> They use Leboncoin a lot. Tell them about Reverb they have no clue what it is. Mostly I believe is due to their lack of English. Younger generations are better but they get shy trying to speak English because of their heavy accents, but large majority of people above 40's speak barely or simply no English at all.


I regularly buy and sell on LeBonCoin and never had a seller ask me to pay by check. Today this site has an integrated payment system, otherwise, bank transfer and Paypal are generally accepted.

Two other French sites if you want to buy and sell:





Petites annonces musique - Zikinf


Service de petites annonces musique : achetez, vendez vos instruments d’occasion, trouvez un groupe, un musicien, un professeur, un local... rapide et gratuit




www.zikinf.com










Used Audio & music gear - Audiofanzine


13 second hand Audio & music gear classified ads, recent and free.




en.audiofanzine.com





If you have difficulties or need help to make a purchase in France, send me a message.

Concerning the speculation on musical instruments, I have a lot of equipment that I could not afford today. Obviously, the Reverb prices have an impact on the French market prices.

Fabrice


----------



## Millul (Tuesday at 5:33 PM)

On the European used market: I think Mercatino is currently the place with the best deals, and also with decent availability; I am constantly amazed at how BAD things are in Germany in thius regard, with eBay Kleinanzeige mostly having very few, overpriced itmes (fellow forumites from Germany - other places where we can find used guitars??).
The UK FB pages used to be pretty good, but having to pay VAT now puts the stuff there out of reach, or at least makes it a lot less of a proposition.


Italian Power Metal rant: this coming saturday, Domine are playing in my hometown (which is also theirs  ) after YEARS and I'm 1000km away...


----------



## Shask (Tuesday at 10:07 PM)

eaeolian said:


> This. I see the Cort Suhr-alikes going for $450, with compound radius, decent hardware, and decent pickups. Even if you change out for higher-end hardware you're spending less than a grand, and while it won't be a Suhr, it'll be a good guitar.


I am really curious about those Harley Benton Fusion guitars. They seem like a lot of guitar for the money.


----------



## Emperoff (Wednesday at 3:33 AM)

Shask said:


> I am really curious about those Harley Benton Fusion guitars. They seem like a lot of guitar for the money.



They are. They also spark hot debates about instrument value on european guitar forums.

They also have a lot of QC issues, which is to be expected at that price point and specs (You have to cut corners somewhere). Good news is that Thomann's return policiy is great so if you want to go the "Strandberg way" and keep returning lemons until you get a good one, you can easily do it.


----------



## Romeo Knight (Wednesday at 11:06 AM)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Dude, you talking about HiEndGuitar in Indonesia? Fuck that shop.


Yes, absolutely. They're flooding Reverb with the sweetest ESP CS's I've ever seen and they make really good photographs of them on top.


----------



## odibrom (Wednesday at 1:58 PM)

... so, a fairly local guy (about 200kms from me) posts an add for a UV777P from '99 or '00 in Facebook for 1€ (ok, I know, the guy isn't set on the guitar's price yet) so I gave him a call asking how much is he asking for it. The add said the guitar has gigged a bit, but then stayed as a show piece at his home and small studio. Photos aren't particular good, but the guitar does look to be in good condition. I asked the guy for how long has the guitar been shown and he replied that the guitar has been kept in its case for the previous 3 years and before that it hanged loose in the walls for an unspecified amount of time. The guy finally discloses that the guitar sold for 2500€ new back then (yeah, I knew that) and he was asking for 3k... I politely declined the deal...

Is he aware that that are other specimens of this guitar in Reverb for way less money and in Europe? it's like when one searches for "Ibanez *7* in guitars" there's 1 or 2 in each page results (some are repetitions...)? I haven't told him nothing, but I got mine for 1100€, used, but in good overall condition and it plays flawlessly, about 2 years ago.

Oh, the guitar had a Steve Vai signature in its headstock back...


----------



## mpexus (Wednesday at 2:09 PM)

Fabrice said:


> I regularly buy and sell on LeBonCoin and never had a seller ask me to pay by check. Today this site has an integrated payment system, otherwise, bank transfer and Paypal are generally accepted.
> 
> 
> 
> Fabrice


----------



## bostjan (Wednesday at 2:16 PM)

mpexus said:


> Actually it is because French are in general super suspicious of anything that falls out of their old ways.
> They are like that in mostly anything... Paypal is still "Evil" for majority of sellers... they prefer fucking Checks... yes WTF fucking Checks in plain 2023... I haven't used a Check since mid 90's so when I had to do one to rent my Apartment I had to ask the Agency dude to do it for me.
> They use Leboncoin a lot. Tell them about Reverb they have no clue what it is. Mostly I believe is due to their lack of English. Younger generations are better but they get shy trying to speak English because of their heavy accents, but large majority of people above 40's speak barely or simply no English at all.


What's wrong with checks? I have an essay on why checks are better, but it's typed on my word processor, so I'll have to fax it to you, if you want to read it.

_Sent on the go from my Blackberry SmartPhone_


----------



## mpexus (Wednesday at 3:56 PM)

bostjan said:


> What's wrong with checks? I have an essay on why checks are better, but it's typed on my word processor, so I'll have to fax it to you, if you want to read it.
> 
> _Sent on the go from my Blackberry SmartPhone_


No one uses checks from were I came from. My GF is British and she told me no one uses checks there as well for the past 30 Years, same as my Spanish colleagues, everybody refuses them in Spain.
Checks are something from the 19th century that were still a viable way of payment until late 20 century and even then a lot of places would refuse them by 1995-97. In fact even in France most supermarkets/restaurants/groceries shops wont accept them at all neither does any gas station or any small business... but for some reason banks still give them to you like this was 1970.


Also what warranty do I have for someone to collect a check, get the money and then never send the item back? I have Zero...


----------



## odibrom (Wednesday at 4:04 PM)

... Checks? only with Bank warranty AND written to the seller's name... and even so...


----------



## bostjan (Wednesday at 4:04 PM)

mpexus said:


> No one uses checks from were I came from. My GF is British and she told me no one uses checks there as well for the past 30 Years, same as my Spanish colleagues, everybody refuses them in Spain.
> Checks are something from the 19th century that were still a viable way of payment until late 20 century and even then a lot of places would refuse them by 1995-97. In fact even in France most supermarkets/restaurants/groceries shops wont accept them at all neither does any gas station or any small business... but for some reason banks still give them to you like this was 1970.
> 
> 
> Also what warranty do I have for someone to collect a check, get the money and then never send the item back? I have Zero...


But what ever will I do if my postilion is run over by a carriage? If I cannot write a check to cover the expense of hiring a new one, then I'd be forced to ride a velocipede and send a telegram ahead to notify them of my expected tardiness! Good heavens! For instance, just the other fortnight, I noticed a tear in my cloak, and had to rush off to the tailor so he could repair it on the vibrating shuttle. If I hadn't have had a check to cover the expense, I would have had to have gone off to the ball improperly dressed!


----------



## Fabrice (Wednesday at 4:39 PM)

mpexus said:


>


This is a case.
I know it's not possible, but it should be the ratio between the number of ads and the ones where the only accepted means of payment is by check. And this would be a generalization on a site.

Here is an article from a Portuguese newspaper, based on a study of the European Central Bank concerning the means of payment used in Europe:








Which payment methods are the most popular in the largest European countries


European authorities are planning to create a single digital market on the continent — but today, the most popular payment methods differ greatly from one country to another. From this article, you will get to know which options the residents of twelve European countries use to pay for their...




www.theportugalnews.com





I will take only two extracts:
"The French remain loyal to their national bank cards, known as Cartes Bancaires. Normally, they are co-branded with Visa or Mastercard. "

"In Portugal, approximately 85% of total sales involve MultiBanco payments. This is a post-pay method that involves generating a reference at the checkout. Then, the customer transfers funds via online banking or an ATM, using a debit card. Portugal is the only country where Visa and Mastercard failed to make it into the top three most popular payment methods."

And here is the link to the European Central Bank study on which it is based:








Study on the payment attitudes of consumers in the euro area (SPACE)


The European Central Bank (ECB) is the central bank of the 19 European Union countries which have adopted the euro. Our main task is to maintain price stability in the euro area and so preserve the purchasing power of the single currency.




www.ecb.europa.eu


----------



## mpexus (Wednesday at 5:56 PM)

Fabrice said:


> I will take only two extracts:
> "The French remain loyal to their national bank cards, known as Cartes Bancaires. Normally, they are co-branded with Visa or Mastercard. "
> 
> "In Portugal, approximately 85% of total sales involve MultiBanco payments. This is a post-pay method that involves generating a reference at the checkout. Then, the customer transfers funds via online banking or an ATM, using a debit card. Portugal is the only country where Visa and Mastercard failed to make it into the top three most popular payment methods."


I'm going to explain to you what that article in reality says since I dont think that the Portuguese system exists anywhere else in the World.


You can pay anything online using your Debit or Credit card, but before Online existed we could go to ANY ATM Machine (since the 80's) and pay:

- Rent
- Gas
- Electricity
- Phone
- Taxes (all of them)
- Fines
- Highway's
- Basically ANY Services that provides the codes, and any form of payment can give you those codes that you simply insert on the machine and pay.

Also we can still use our ATM's (any of them) to do:
- Transfers (to ANY account and ANY Bank without charges)
- Get Money on ANY ATM from Any bank that not our own and don't pay commissions for it (unlike in France)
- Deposits (Cash or Check)
- Check our Bank Balance 
- Check our Last 20 or so detailed Account Movements


Sure some are now a bit redundant since we have Bank Apps on outr phones... but even then, and apart from getting money I cannot do almost anything else in any French ATM... which to me is a bit like being in mid last century. 
Any Service can be paid online or any ATM as long as they (The Service provider) provides 2 simple codes:

The Code for the Entity for example Electricity Company, the Code for the Service for example you December Bill and then you have the amount you have to pay. It's so simple and practical that when you don't have it you wonder why the hell you don't. 
I buy lots of things in Leboncoin and it got much much easier now with it's secure payment option, even though I pay a tax for it. But before people totally refused any sort of payment that wasnt a bank Transfer or a freaking Check... but still it's not uncommon to see sellers there not even accepting the Secure Payment... just had one telling me No on a Stratocaster I was willing to get.


----------



## OmegaSlayer (Friday at 2:29 AM)

I was thinking about the second hand stuff selling at 15% less than new.
Do sellers realize that there are financing programs so I can buy the item new paying a bit every month instead of paying in one go?
That alone should take down the prices.
I'm looking for a Vintera Tele or Strat (the better deal that I find first would have a go) but if the guitar new costs 1000 € and I can pay it in 3 months, there's no way I fork 850 € in one go for a second hand, even if it's in mint condition, which is very rare


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## Emperoff (Friday at 2:41 AM)

mpexus said:


> I'm going to explain to you what that article in reality says since I dont think that the Portuguese system exists anywhere else in the World.
> 
> 
> You can pay anything online using your Debit or Credit card, but before Online existed we could go to ANY ATM Machine (since the 80's) and pay:
> ...



As cool as that is, it is a huge pain in the ass to travel to Portugal and realize none of your credit cards work. Specially when you just finished your dinner in a restaurant...


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## KentBrockman (Friday at 6:28 AM)

I moved from the UK to US in the mid to late 2010s. No one in the UK uses checks (CHEQUES) anymore. The only time I remember them being used is when my parents were paying for a school trip and that was the payment method that the school wanted. Now that I live in the US, most things are done by card (or PayPal, which I what I prefer) but every now and then I have to write a check and I have to Google it every time.

Also, there’s this new thing called Venmo which I am not really sure about. I have no idea who uses it for conventional payments. From what I understand, it’s like PayPal but girls on Tinder use it to ask dudes for money, possibly in exchange for pictures?


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## OmegaSlayer (Friday at 6:58 AM)

KentBrockman said:


> it’s like PayPal but girls on Tinder use it to ask dudes for money, possibly in exchange for pictures?


LOL

I hate everything that is not a banknote, I hate going through a bank account to make any payment, simply because a third party takes a slice of the pie.
But that's always me being socialist


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## Neon_Knight_ (Friday at 8:47 AM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> LOL
> 
> I hate everything that is not a banknote, I hate going through a bank account to make any payment, simply because a third party takes a slice of the pie.
> But that's always me being socialist


Surely coins made of solid gold / silver are preferable to bank notes. A banknote is essentially a cheque from a bank (traditionally with the value being based on the value of gold held by the bank).


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## OmegaSlayer (Friday at 8:51 AM)

Neon_Knight_ said:


> Surely coins made of solid gold / silver are preferable to bank notes. A banknote is essentially a cheque from a bank (traditionally with the value being based on the value of gold held by the bank).


How much I hate Bretton Woods...


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## mpexus (Friday at 3:51 PM)

Emperoff said:


> As cool as that is, it is a huge pain in the ass to travel to Portugal and realize none of your credit cards work. Specially when you just finished your dinner in a restaurant...


Well... There must be some issue on your Card then or then its some sort of Protection that your bank did without you knowing.

I use my Debit French card in Portugal with zero issues (I have no French Credit Card by Option). My GF (she is British and lives in France) uses her French cards (Debit and Credit) as her English Cards with zero issues. My Canadian Aunt uses only her Canadian Visa when she visits my mum, she doesnt even have a Portuguese card. My Indian co - worker used his Indian Credit as did his Spanish girlfriend and my French colleague's while there this past summer... Talk with your Bank.


Ohhh another thing we can do in ATM's in Portugal (any of them). We can change our Cards Pin Code Number to something easier for us. Takes 2 minutes


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## Emperoff (Friday at 5:28 PM)

mpexus said:


> Well... There must be some issue on your Card then or then its some sort of Protection that your bank did without you knowing.



Nope. It's as easy as plenty of places only accepting Multibanco. You see the "card accepted" sign outside, but when you finish your dinner you realize they don't accept Visa nor Mastercard. Then you have to go find an ATM. Happened to us plenty of times (even in Porto) and we were frankly quite pissed off.

So no, no issues with my bank whatsoever


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## mpexus (Yesterday at 7:25 AM)

Emperoff said:


> Nope. It's as easy as plenty of places only accepting Multibanco. You see the "card accepted" sign outside, but when you finish your dinner you realize they don't accept Visa nor Mastercard. Then you have to go find an ATM. Happened to us plenty of times (even in Porto) and we were frankly quite pissed off.
> 
> So no, no issues with my bank whatsoever


Ohhhh I get it now...
I know some reall small mini markets (Groceries and stuff) and some smaller cafes/coffee shops dont have in their system to acccept Credit Cards. Yes it happened to me too when trying to buy some drinks and I was also pissed that i had to go outside search for an ATM machine but I then used one of my Debit cards. Still and now you will know it, if you just used the Debit card there would zero issues.


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## Emperoff (Yesterday at 7:32 AM)

mpexus said:


> Ohhhh I get it now...
> I know some reall small mini markets (Groceries and stuff) and some smaller cafes/coffee shops dont have in their system to acccept Credit Cards. Yes it happened to me too when trying to buy some drinks and I was also pissed that i had to go outside search for an ATM machine but I then used one of my Debit cards. Still and now you will know it, if you just used the Debit card there would zero issues.



We used debit cards too, same deal. No Visa nor Mastercard allowed. Only Multibanco. The only places we never had issues were souvenir shops, obviously .

Anyway, let's see more examples: Listed at 1400€. Discounted at 35% the way @Emperor Guillotine described so it looks appealing at 1000€. Meanwhile you can get these locally in here for around 600€ all day long. And that one is the cheapest on Reverb:








Jackson Pro Series SL3 Soloist 2003 - 2008 Natural | Reverb


They don't make them like they used to! Up for sale is my early 2000's Made in Japan Jackson Pro Series Soloist SL3 in natural. I am the 2nd owner of this guitar, and it hasn't been played much in its 20 or so years. To my knowledge the guitar was never gigged, hence the amazing condition that it...




reverb.com


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## DC23 (Yesterday at 5:27 PM)

Based on the OPs post, I can echo USA Jacksons are nuts here. People want $4.5K for their flame or black USA SL2H. It's astounding. Fortunately I don't see them selling.


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## MrWulf (Yesterday at 10:28 PM)

This topic reminded me when some numbnut decided to list a MIK Dean Dime Dixie Flag with a ding for 2.5k and theres people defending that his price is fair


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## Ataraxia2320 (Today at 11:40 AM)

OmegaSlayer said:


> I wish they could open business here in Europe so that we could have an alternative to Thomann
> Mostly because of the customer service, because Thomann's one is lame
> Then for availability of items (it's 4 months that the Gibson multi tool is not available around Europe)


Musicstore is a pretty big competitor to thomann. Even bigger since it merged with DV247. Their store in Cologne is great.


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## dr_game0ver (Today at 12:12 PM)

Thomann, Music store, Andertons, Woodbrass, Michenaud, even Music City which is 90mn from where i live.


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