# Is it doable to drop B on a 25.5"?



## littlebadboy (Jan 6, 2020)

Is it doable to drop B on a 25.5"?

I can't do 7 strings and haven't tried a baritone yet. Is it doable to drop B on a 25.5? If yes, what's a good gauge set? What will be cons against true baritone guitars?

Thanks!


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## Loomer (Jan 6, 2020)

It is very, very doable indeed and the "accepted truth" orthodoxy of it being literally impossible for some reason is extremely exaggerated.


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## WiseSplinter (Jan 6, 2020)

Totally possible, people do it all the time and have been for decades.
The gauge depends on your tension preferences, but I think a good start will be a set from Ernieball with (10-54) or (12-56). I think there's a set with a 62 in the bass which might be good if you like them tight!


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## Choop (Jan 6, 2020)

People even do drop B pretty often on 24.75 scale guitars--I had an open B setup on one of my LP studios and I think I used the D'Addario medium top/extra heavy bottom 11-56. As far as I know, the only disadvantage to using a shorter scale length guitar vs a baritone is that you are required to use thicker strings to maintain a good level of string tension. It can affect the tone to use thicker strings vs thinner strings, and some may prefer the feel of one over the other as well. It's certainly doable though, to answer your question!


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## Edika (Jan 6, 2020)

I have a guitar with 24.75" at C#/Drop B and has a 13-62 set. So yeah it is more than doable. While thinner strings have a better sound for me (less mud) tension and intonation wise you should be looking something along 12-56 or 12-60 for that little extra tension up high. Most 7 strings initially were 25.5" and in B standard they either had a 56 or a 60 for the low B.


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## sleewell (Jan 6, 2020)

Slipknot would say yes and with room to go drop A.


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## Winspear (Jan 6, 2020)

Take a look at the gauges in my 11-60 drop tune set for example. Anything like that will work. The String Source also sell drop tune tweaked sets. 
Pro of baritone guitar is simply a slightly lighter gauge and brighter tone with the same string tension. But 60 or 62 sounds plenty bright and tight enough on 25.5.
Don't forget 25.5 was absolutely the norm for 7 strings until djent happened, and even then 26.5/27 etc is only in such high demand because they are usually downtuning it to A/G area these days


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2020)

definitely possible. I used to go as low as drop g on my old RG, but I was using pretty heavy gauges. I mean Carcass/At The Gates/Entombed literally built their sound around playing in B on 24.75" scale guitars


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## littlebadboy (Jan 6, 2020)

Thanks guys! Thought of asking because I wanted to have clear cleans too and I read the shorter the scale, it may get muddier.


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## DickyTripleD (Jan 6, 2020)

Drop B is literally a half step down from Drop C. I think people forget that when they try to do the calculation for tension offhand. It's really not far at all.

I found a 13-64 was perfect on my 26.5 6 in drop A#, so I'd say a 60-62 would be perfect for 25.5. (Keeping in mind that the angle the strings come off the nut and bridge also have an effect on tension, and scale length doesn't have as much of an effect as string gauge.)


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## ixlramp (Jan 6, 2020)

Doable yes, but if you highly prioritise clarity, brightness, harmonicity and sustain a longer scale will help.



DickyTripleD said:


> Keeping in mind that the angle the strings come off the nut and bridge also have an effect on tension, and scale length doesn't have as much of an effect as string gauge


The break angles only affect the perceived tension, not the actual tension.

T = U * (2 * L * F) ^ 2 / 386.4
Tension is proportional to scale length (L) squared, so scale length very significantly affects tension.
Tension is proportional to unit weight (U) and so proportional to gauge squared.
So scale and gauge are, in a way, equally significant.


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## ThePIGI King (Jan 6, 2020)

ixlramp said:


> Doable yes, but if you highly prioritise clarity, brightness, harmonicity and sustain a longer scale will help.
> 
> 
> The break angles only affect the perceived tension, not the actual tension.
> ...


Whats F in the equation and where did you get 386.4 from?

Curious as I like math.


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## Walter W. (Jan 6, 2020)

I have a 25.5 in drop B right now and I think i'm using a 58 on the low string.


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## Walter W. (Jan 6, 2020)

Walter W. said:


> I have a 25.5 in drop B right now and I think i'm using a 58 on the low string.



Went back and checked and I'm actually using a Ernie Ball Beefy Slinky 11-54 set and it sounds really good and holds tune pretty good.


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## littlebadboy (Jan 6, 2020)

Walter W. said:


> Went back and checked and I'm actually using a Ernie Ball Beefy Slinky 11-54 set and it sounds really good and holds tune pretty good.


Are the string tensions even especially with your 6th 54? The string tension calculator says that would be loose.


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## Walter W. (Jan 6, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> Are the string tensions even especially with your 6th 54? The string tension calculator says that would be loose.


Ive not checked the tension but the 54 feels pretty good to me. You may just want to get a couple of different string sets and just see what you like best, you can get the Ernie Balls for right around $5 a set.


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## Sogradde (Jan 7, 2020)

I've used drop B on a 25.5" guitar for years now and I use these strings: https://www.thomann.de/gb/daddario_exl148.htm
There's not really any major problems, the only thing I would recommend is tuning to attack and not to the fading note if you pick heavy like me. In the studio I usually change tuning slightly depending on whether I play chords or single notes. Other than that it's like any other tuning. Can't really complain about a lack of attack or anything.


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## bostjan (Jan 7, 2020)

ThePIGI King said:


> Whats F in the equation and where did you get 386.4 from?
> 
> Curious as I like math.


F is frequency of fundamental vibration in Hertz. 386.4 conversion is only necessary if you use funky units, like pounds and inches for unit weight, tension, and length. If you use the metric system, there is no conversion factor.

"Percieved tension" is a bit of a weird concept, since it's essentially stiffness, but, when playing bends on a stringed instrument, it is certainly felt.

To address the OP, drop B isn't that low, really. Things do get muddier the lower you tune down, but IMO, it really doesn't start to become an issue until you go beyond low A. That said, a 27" low B sounds strikingly "better" to my ears than a 25.5" low B. There are also concerns with intonation adjustments and so forth, but assuming that's not an issue, the longer the string, the brighter and clearer the low notes are. But it's all a matter of personal taste.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jan 7, 2020)

Absolutely doable. I tuned to drop B on my 25.5" 6's for years, and I have my 25.5" 7 string in drop B with a high F# now.

Do it!


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## Selkoid (Jan 7, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> Are the string tensions even especially with your 6th 54? The string tension calculator says that would be loose.


NYXL1156 / EXL117 has always felt good to me in drop B on a 25.5"


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## Albake21 (Jan 7, 2020)

I play and write pretty much everything in Drop B. It's basically become my "standard" tuning. Three of my four six strings are in Drop B. Personally, my perfect set of strings for both tone and feel are a set of Daddario EXL117 (11-56). Anything over the 56 and you lose a bit of that high end and starts to get that thick string mud sound that I've always hated.

Hell that fourth guitar (which is my JP16) is setup in Drop A with the same set of strings and it works great. Now to be fair that has a Floyd so it keeps tune pretty damn well.


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## jephjacques (Jan 7, 2020)

You can take a 25.5" guitar all the way down to G with the right strings and setup.


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## littlebadboy (Jan 7, 2020)

Winspear said:


> Take a look at the gauges in my 11-60 drop tune set for example. Anything like that will work. The String Source also sell drop tune tweaked sets.
> Pro of baritone guitar is simply a slightly lighter gauge and brighter tone with the same string tension. But 60 or 62 sounds plenty bright and tight enough on 25.5.
> Don't forget 25.5 was absolutely the norm for 7 strings until djent happened, and even then 26.5/27 etc is only in such high demand because they are usually downtuning it to A/G area these days



Played around with a string calculator and couldn't find a set anywhere that matches my desired tensions. But, thanks to your lead, thestringsource.com had exactly what I needed!

12 16 22w 30w 42w



Sogradde said:


> I've used drop B on a 25.5" guitar for years now and I use these strings: https://www.thomann.de/gb/daddario_exl148.htm
> There's not really any major problems, the only thing I would recommend is tuning to attack and not to the fading note if you pick heavy like me. In the studio I usually change tuning slightly depending on whether I play chords or single notes. Other than that it's like any other tuning. Can't really complain about a lack of attack or anything.



Does that set have a wounded 3rd string?


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## Winspear (Jan 7, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> Does that set have a wounded 3rd string?



Great! No, the D'addario does not


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## Bearitone (Jan 7, 2020)

Early Bring me the Horizon was all drop B on standard scale guitars and Lee now does drop A on his signature Les Paul.

It’s absolutely doable


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## Hollowway (Jan 8, 2020)

Yes, because Prestige 7 strings are 25.5”. In fact, the majority (?) of 7 string guitars are 25.5”.


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## Sogradde (Jan 8, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> Does that set have a wounded 3rd string?


No it doesn't but if your nut is well cut for your string gauge, the strings shouldn't have any tuning issues.


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## eaeolian (Jan 8, 2020)

Evergrey has done it for years on 25.5".


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## efiltsohg (Jan 8, 2020)

I've used a 25.5" scale in drop G (octave D standard) without issues, though you might need to take it to a tech to make sure you can fit a .74 or .80 string


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## Drew (Jan 8, 2020)

Yeah, no problem at all with B at 25.5. With the right gauges you can get A to work as well, but getting much below that gets trickier.


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## PRS_Baritone_Vito (Jan 8, 2020)

It definitely is doable, but since I've moved to baritones for tunings of C standard and lower, I can't go back to standard scales in those lower tunings. I think the baritones just sound so much clearer and thicker than standard scales. If you have a chance to try out a baritone I think you should. You may really dig it.

If you are going the Drop B route on a standard scale, I'd say use 13-62 gauge sets.


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## Schmeer (Jan 9, 2020)

eaeolian said:


> Evergrey has done it for years on 25.5".



Slightly off topic, but I always thought those Caparisons were 24.75"?

OT: In Flames tune to drop A# on most songs (and even down to drop G on one song), all on 24.75"


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## eaeolian (Jan 9, 2020)

Schmeer said:


> Slightly off topic, but I always thought those Caparisons were 24.75"?
> 
> OT: In Flames tune to drop A# on most songs (and even down to drop G on one song), all on 24.75"



They have both (although Tom usually played a Horus), but the Drop B songs were generally on the 25.5" guitars, IIRC.


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## Russian Robot (Jan 10, 2020)

bostjan said:


> F is frequency of fundamental vibration in Hertz. 386.4 conversion is only necessary if you use funky units, like pounds and inches for unit weight, tension, and length. If you use the metric system, there is no conversion factor.
> 
> "Percieved tension" is a bit of a weird concept, since it's essentially stiffness, but, when playing bends on a stringed instrument, it is certainly felt.
> 
> To address the OP, drop B isn't that low, really. Things do get muddier the lower you tune down, but IMO, it really doesn't start to become an issue until you go beyond low A. That said, a 27" low B sounds strikingly "better" to my ears than a 25.5" low B. There are also concerns with intonation adjustments and so forth, but assuming that's not an issue, the longer the string, the brighter and clearer the low notes are. But it's all a matter of personal taste.



Isn't the perceived brightness and clearness differences between different scale lengths related to the pickup size and position, and that's what results in the different tones at different scale lengths? I mean, we're extending the scale (or string), but the pickup stays the same size (the size proportion with respect to the scale length isn't the same), so it picks up a smaller percentage of the scale on a longer scale as opposed to a shorter scale- resulting in a tighter sound?


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## bostjan (Jan 10, 2020)

Russian Robot said:


> Isn't the perceived brightness and clearness differences between different scale lengths related to the pickup size and position, and that's what results in the different tones at different scale lengths? I mean, we're extending the scale (or string), but the pickup stays the same size (the size proportion with respect to the scale length isn't the same), so it picks up a smaller percentage of the scale on a longer scale as opposed to a shorter scale- resulting in a tighter sound?


Not really.
The relative change in pickup position is less than the change in pickup position from one production run to the next. The guitar sounds brighter unplugged, etc.
But maybe a little, on average...


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 10, 2020)

I do it.


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## Pat (Jan 10, 2020)

Josh from Architects uses an ESP Eclipse (24.75" scale) in C# standard (essentially drop B), but with a low F#


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## PatientMental76 (Jan 12, 2020)

Selkoid said:


> NYXL1156 / EXL117 has always felt good to me in drop B on a 25.5"



Im at G# with the NYXL 13-64 on a 25.5 with a Floyd Rose no stability issues always stays in tune with good tension those NYXL's work the best for me for some reason!


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## Cam-Poe (Jan 27, 2020)

A-standard for me on a 25.5 scale, with no issues.
Proper intonation, string gauge and solid nut properly suited for that gauge has been the only thing I needed to do.
Sounds wicked tight.


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## Backsnack (Jan 27, 2020)

Choop said:


> People even do drop B pretty often on 24.75 scale guitars--I had an open B setup on one of my LP studios and I think I used the D'Addario medium top/extra heavy bottom 11-56. As far as I know, the only disadvantage to using a shorter scale length guitar vs a baritone is that you are required to use thicker strings to maintain a good level of string tension. It can affect the tone to use thicker strings vs thinner strings, and some may prefer the feel of one over the other as well. It's certainly doable though, to answer your question!


I remember the old school Caparison signature guitars for the Soilwork guitarists back in the 90s and early 2000s were short scale and they tuned to B standard. Like you said, they used thicker strings and I think some of the custom tweaks for the baritone tuning included some bored out tuners to accommodate the thicker gauge strings and possibly some modified bridge saddles to achieve correct intonation.

Not sure what they use now, but clearly it's been done before.


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## Backsnack (Jan 27, 2020)

Cam-Poe said:


> A-standard for me on a 25.5 scale, with no issues.
> Proper intonation, string gauge and solid nut properly suited for that gauge has been the only thing I needed to do.
> Sounds wicked tight.


No problems with your lowest bridge saddle moving back far enough to get there?


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## jephjacques (Jan 28, 2020)

a tune-o-matic style bridge might concievably have issues, but 95% bridges will be fine. Worst case scenario you might have to remove the spring that's around the screw.


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## Steinmetzify (Jan 30, 2020)

Drop B is my main tuning and has been for the last few years.

11-59 on a 25.5" scale works for me.

My LP gauges are 12-60, sounds and feels awesome.


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