# Bass guitar tone on ERG? Is this really possible?



## Explorer (Jul 8, 2011)

Assertions are routinely made in the extended range guitar subforum about how certain string sizes on extended range guitar sound like a bass guitar, and therefore one should implement whatever that poster feels is the solution to the "problem."

But what if they're right?

I was working with a 35" 6-string tonight, and the thought crossed my mind of doing a conversion of my 28.625" Agile Intrepid to the most tightly spaced 8-string ERB. I remembered those assertions, and did some quick calculations... and was brought up short. 

None of my strings on my guitar instruments have a tension higher than 25 lbs (and that includes when I had the 28.625" tuned down to Bb0). None of the strings on my bass instruments have a tension lower than 35 lbs, and that includes all those strings which overlap in range with my 8-strings, which generally have the bottom 5 strings at the same pitches (E1 - A1 - D2 - G2 - C3) as the top five strings of a six-string bass. The two instrument families have different sounds/timbres, feels and techniques... at least to me. 

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Imagine an electric bass with the tone of steel nickel strings, but the size of an electric guitar! I know that the Kala and Ashbory basses manage to sound very upright, but that's a far cry from saying there is some sort of electric guitar principle I can harness to let me cover ERB territory and only have to carry a modified Steinberger broomstick.

Am I completely off-bass for thinking that the assertions are wrong? Or, is there some magical combination of scale and string gauge which will yield bass guitar tones out of electric guitar tensions?


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## LordCashew (Jul 8, 2011)

Explorer said:


> ...is there some magical combination of scale and string gauge which will yield bass guitar tones out of electric guitar tensions?



Exactly the same tones? I doubt it. Musically useful? Up to you, experiment and decide.

Based on your post I'm not sure which is more important to you, being able to convert an 8 string guitar to a short-scale ERB, or being able to do it using guitar string tension. If this is an idea you really want to pursue, I say why care about the tension? Mess around with different strings until you find something that sounds cool.

I think if you want to use a detuned baritone guitar in the "bass" role, you can do it. I don't think it will sound exactly like most people's paradigm of "a bass" but who cares.

Now the one thing I'd be worried about is the F#0, assuming you're going to be in "standard" 8-string bass tuning. I'm not saying it's impossible, but good luck with that.

To me it seems like it's just several variables in a continuum. Tension, scale length, pickups, amplification, technique, etc... The more you make the instrument resemble "a bass" and the more you play it and use it like "a bass" the more it will sound like "a bass." I think you already know what I mean here.


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## Explorer (Jul 8, 2011)

It's not a concern, but more a curiosity. I use both instruments, ERG and ERB, for different things. 

I just had dismissed all the "my guitar sounds like a bass" idea as arising from guitar players who expected the same kinds of harmonics from higher and lower strings on ERGs, and who hadn't thought about the differences in string pitch having an effect on what harmonics come from that pitch. My noticing that the tensions of my ERBs are about double those of my ERGs just made it more obvious to me that the assertions might be even further off base. Still, if any bass players had perhaps stumbled onto some principle which vindicated the opinions of the guitar players, I was open to hearing about such. 

The only thing which was important to me was to find out if these assertions were actually true, or just hyperbole. I didn't want to just dismiss them as unknowledgeable.


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## SnowfaLL (Jul 8, 2011)

You might get closer with a 30" or even 31/32" scale, since there have been shortscale basses around that length, but also extra long guitar scales too.. I dont think it would be reasonable to get that type of tone on a 28.625"


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## flo (Jul 8, 2011)

Cool idea!

Some things come to mind.

1. I think if you really took your eihghtstring guitar and tuned it like a bass with the same tension (~35lbs) then the neck will be in trouble, cause it's way more pull than what it's made for

2. How would you fit the strings through the bridge and tuners? maybe unwind the strings a little?

3. To get a more basslike tone, maybe swap to real basspickups? EMG 808 (for guitar) and DC40 (for bass) are the same size for example.

4. On that scale I maybe wouldn't tune lower than the standard E from a bass. But how about using bass strings and ERB tuning, strung up to tension, but an octave higher, and then use octavers to pitch them down? But then you've got problem #1 again... Or you could have the four low strings from a guitar and the four bass strings beneath...


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## LordCashew (Jul 9, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I just had dismissed all the "my guitar sounds like a bass" idea as arising from guitar players who expected the same kinds of harmonics from higher and lower strings on ERGs, and who hadn't thought about the differences in string pitch having an effect on what harmonics come from that pitch. My noticing that the tensions of my ERBs are about double those of my ERGs just made it more obvious to me that the assertions might be even further off base. Still, if any bass players had perhaps stumbled onto some principle which vindicated the opinions of the guitar players, I was open to hearing about such.



I'm not sure how much hard, scientific evidence you'll get from your fellow musicians about this. Everything gets subjective when people start comparing things like this (especially with guitarists... JK).

If memory serves me, increased tension on a string increases the amplitude of harmonics in relation to the fundamental while decreasing string excursion, giving a "brighter" tone with a crisper attack. This principle certainly holds true when comparing my 34" and 35" scale basses with the same strings.

But comparing my Agile 830 with a .074 E1 to my buddy's 30" shortscale bass with a .110 E1 the opposite seems to be true. I believe the bass would still have greater tension (correct me if bass strings behave differently than guitar strings at a given scale), but it has a rounder tone and a thumpier attack. Obviously pickup placement is part of the equation, but the discrepancy is apparent even unplugged. I guess it could be a number of things.

As far as a guitars sounding "like a bass..." I have to admit that the lower I tune my Agile, the more it sounds like a bass to me. I would never say it sounds "the same as a bass" but there is a resemblance.

Here's a spur-of the moment theory: what if the pickup placement and voicing of guitars combined with the natural low-end rolloff of guitar amps cause the overtones of low notes on ERGs to be disproportionately loud relative to the fundamental, mimicking the effect of increased tension? I think I might be on to something.


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## MF_Kitten (Jul 9, 2011)

get a really full-range pickup on it, a bass pickup or something. a Q-tuner gets those super deep frequencies right out there, and i think alumitones and EMGs do so too. bass pickups are voiced for this job, and get the deepness and fullness in there, while guitar pickups are made for an entirely different purpose, and you'll be EQ-ing your face off just to balance it out.


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## TemjinStrife (Jul 9, 2011)

I have a 30" scale OLP MM5 Bass VI strung .025-.095, E to E. Through a clean amp or a bass amp, it does a pretty good bass impression, although it's much more of a "vintagey" sound than a modern bass. Also, with the tension as it sits at .095 for the low E, I wouldn't even consider trying to go below that.


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## Explorer (Jul 9, 2011)

MFK, it's interesting that you bring up the Alumitones. I was on the verge of replacing the humbuckers on a 12-string with them... but the description said that the 'bucker-sized ones were voiced to give more of a traditional humbucker tone, as opposed to the full range flat response I'd want out of my investment.

I'm going to go with the GFS Liverpool p'ups, but wish there was a flat response humbucker-size Alumitone.

As far as I have been able to find, the Alumitone Bass Bar and their pedal steel pickups are flat response... but I don't know for sure, so I'm going to hold off until I do. 

(Now that you bring the Alumitone back to my attention, MFK, I wonder... could I build a shell which would fit over the single Alumitone, and make it look like a completely hollow toaster pickup? Some strange little detail which will freak out only those who look closely enough? Line the pickup cavity with some sort of fluorescent color, and put an LED in to illuminate it? I'll have to look at measurements and see if this can be done....)

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@TemjinStrife - I use light/extralight stringing on my guitars, and my 25.5" 8-strings have .090 for the E1. Using .095 at 30" would be quite a bit more tension... although I don't recall what tensions are common on the shortscale VI basses. When I was tuned down to Bb0 at 25.5", I believe I was using larger than .120. I'll have to do the calculations again, or find my notebook, as it was a gauge/tension combination that I could just find online. 

----

As far as my thinking about redoing the Intrepid 828 as an ERB... I currently have a few six-string basses, fretted and unfretted, and a 4- and 5-string fretless. I'm accustomed to the string sizes which give me the tension to slap and pop normally. If I were satisfied that I could make the Intrepid cover this range with the tone of a bass, I'd keep this instead of selling it when I do my next semi-custom Rondo order. 

The thing is, though... I've previously had this particular Intrepid tuned all the way down to Ab0, when I had it set up for full fifths (Ab0 to A4). The low string was in no way like a bass guitar in tone. I believe that the key to having the tone and feel of an actual bass is tied to the tensions of the bass guitar, and I'm hesitant to add (quick calculation) 170 lbs. of tension to the neck of this thing.

And that quick calculation makes it pretty clear that this is a non-starter. I can tune this thing down, but although I'll have the note range of a bass guitar, it will not sound or feel like a bass guitar unless one is unfamiliar with the tone of an actual bass. "It's low, so it sounds like a bass" doesn't work for me. 

I'm going to start reading those threads where people assert that certain types of downtuning sound just like a bass guitar, and figure out if those people knew what they were talking about, or if they were just trying to describe the shift in harmonics due to using a larger string gauge....

Thanks for all the ideas, all! If you have anything else to add, I'll appreciate it!

(And, of course, +1 to all your reps for stepping up, good people!)


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## ixlramp (Jul 9, 2011)

It's not so much tension, but scale length, that gives bass it's characteristic tone. To sound like a bass you need the scale of a bass. I use ultra-light tension on my basses (20-25 pounds) and they still sound like basses.


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## Explorer (Jul 9, 2011)

Interesting. That's exactly the opposite of the argument made for longer scale lengths like 30" on ERGs, in that "only a longer scale length will enable you to maintain a guitar's tone on the lower strings." This particular point has been made all over the place here at SS.org.

Those two points of view, that additional scale length lets something sound more like a guitar, while simultaneously making it sound more like a bass, are impossible to reconcile. That's why I believe there is some other factor at play besides scale length....


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## LordCashew (Jul 9, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Those two points of view, that additional scale length lets something sound more like a guitar, while simultaneously making it sound more like a bass, are impossible to reconcile. That's why I believe there is some other factor at play besides scale length....



Like Subjectivity?  

Like I said, guitarists... again, JK of course...


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## Explorer (Jul 9, 2011)

@LIS - Well, I do believe that guitarists who don't know what a bass actually sounds like, or who have only heard bass used in one way, would be clueless when describing lower timbres. Not necessarily because they're guitarists, but because they are ignorant due to inexperience. 

I had forgotten about a recent topic where the tonal differences are even more clear. Here's a current thread here on SS.org where a guy is playing a bass guitar strung piccolo. When he plays the upper strings, you can hear the typical bass timbre coming through. 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/bass-guitar-discussion/163196-guy-badass.html

Given my experience with other instrument families, and my discussions with builders regarding tension and timbre, I'm starting to think that tension is the important variable. I'll have to see if I can find my notebooks from my tonequest on hammered dulcimer....


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## MF_Kitten (Jul 9, 2011)

Since i just bought a Lace Helix 5 string bass, i can test the alumitones however the hell you want when it arrives! I can speak for the q tuner already though. Even on a 27-28 ish scale length, with a .80 string, it gives off the deep frequencies really well, much better than guitar pickups do. Guitar pickups seem to roll off way before those frequencies. I have the aforementioned olp mm5 30" scale bass too, and while it does the meshuggah thing really well, it sounds far from a bass with guitar pickups and "normal" string gauges. I have tried, and i can get the growly snappy bit, but the tight low end tone is missing. The deep and solid sound isn't in there with ordinary pickups. A q tuner would fix that.


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## celticelk (Jul 9, 2011)

^------Please, Bass Bar clips and review! I'm planning to drop a pair into my Omen-8 as soon as I can find someone who has them in stock - all the usual Internet outlets seem to be sold out at the moment. =(

Explorer, I was messing around with my just-arrived Tech 21 Blonde pedal today, and found that the Omen-8 through that pedal into the front end of a Peavey KB100 (tweeter + 15" woofer) produced a nicely bass-like tone, even with the stock pickups. Worth continuing to experiment with....


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## Explorer (Jul 10, 2011)

Like Celticelk, I'm greatly interested in hearing about the Alumitones as a replacement for the EMG 808 and its ilk. 

I'm actually a great fan of the 808, as it manages to cover the range of my instruments quite well, even when i was using that low Bb0. I believe that the pickup itself is full range, as there is plenty of writing about the full range of the bass pickups the 808 eventually replaced in ERGs. 

----

I remember there being one vid which made me completely abandon my plan to test the Alumitone humbucker size. Oh, it had humbucker tone in spades, which I guess is what some people wanted, instead of flat response. 

Anyway, I found that video again. Here it is, completely clean, no effects... and that muffled high end.



Unfortunately, the completely clean and transparent Alumitone only comes in single coil and P90 sizes, which doesn't work for me. Sounds great, though!



I don't know if these would cover lower tones....


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## anne (Jul 10, 2011)

I've done it pretty convincingly on a few tracks with 25.5"ers, and it was a combination of amping and technique. I'd expect it to be much harder to accomplish on a 28.625" with the thinner strings. Also the actual music and arrangement makes a difference as to whether or not it can be pulled off.


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## LordCashew (Jul 10, 2011)

Explorer said:


> @LIS - Well, I do believe that guitarists who don't know what a bass actually sounds like, or who have only heard bass used in one way, would be clueless when describing lower timbres. Not necessarily because they're guitarists, but because they are ignorant due to inexperience.



Of course I'm just joking around with my slams on guitarists. 

But I think you might be on to something about people who have "only heard bass used in one way." IME low-tuned guitars can kind of approximate a dirty bass sound. But the clean, piano type tone? Nope.


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## Explorer (Jul 10, 2011)

I knew you were joking, but I felt it would be helpful to actually state that guitar players might not know what a bass guitar sounds like. 

Given that there are a lot of metal players here on SS.org, it's also worth noting that... well... although there are some metal bassists who have great tone... there are some who don't. A lot of the time, the focus is on shreddy/djenty guitars, and the bass doesn't rise to the level of, say, Justin Chancellor of Tool....


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## LordCashew (Jul 10, 2011)

Explorer said:


> ...although there are some metal bassists who have great tone... there are some who don't. A lot of the time, the focus is on shreddy/djenty guitars, and the bass doesn't rise to the level of, say, Justin Chancellor of Tool....



...or even to the level of being audible, LOL. You're absolutely right. There are a lot of metal albums where the bass doesn't sound like anything or is barely detectable, including some of my favorites. As a bassist, it seems like a shame to me but at the same time I have to admit the mix on a lot of those albums sounds great with the bass buried. Context, I guess...


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## SnowfaLL (Jul 11, 2011)

Its sad that its really only significantly noticeable when you finally see a REALLY GOOD bassist in a metal band; thats when I started to go "wow, it makes such a difference".. Most metal bands just blend the bass in the mix, and their riffs are like just consistent root 8ths and so boring..


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## TemjinStrife (Aug 8, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Interesting. That's exactly the opposite of the argument made for longer scale lengths like 30" on ERGs, in that "only a longer scale length will enable you to maintain a guitar's tone on the lower strings." This particular point has been made all over the place here at SS.org.
> 
> Those two points of view, that additional scale length lets something sound more like a guitar, while simultaneously making it sound more like a bass, are impossible to reconcile. That's why I believe there is some other factor at play besides scale length....



Honestly, I feel that shorter scale lengths are more guitar-like, and longer scale lengths are more bass-like. 

With a longer scale length, you seem to get more of a piano-ish sound; brighter highs, deeper lows, and the midrange emphasis either relaxes or moves down. Compare this with a shorter scale length, where you get more midrange and attenuate the highs and lows.

The bass tonality also likely has a lot to do with the fact that bass strings are at a much higher tension than guitar strings, so running a thinner string at higher tension on a longer scale would sound more bass-like than a thicker string at lower tension on a short scale.

I also am reasonably certain that, assuming you don't have absurdly high-output woolly-midranged pickups, you can get either a guitar or a bass tone out of them depending on the scale length and tensions involved. Rickenbacker used the same "toaster" pickups on their 4003 basses and 360 series guitars for years, and yet both sounded distinctly 'guitar-like' or 'bass-like.'

Keep in mind that a HUGE portion of the "Meshuggah" sound that everyone wants around here is the bass guitar! That's where a lot of that tonality comes from, which is why people like long-scaled instruments with teeny strings (a more bass-like tonality) which gets them closer to Meshuggah's bass guitar-dominated tone.

So, I guess what I'm saying here, is that scale length and overall tension affect the tonality much more strongly than do pickups.


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## Explorer (Aug 8, 2011)

Hey, Temjin!

I was thinking it was more tension causing a bass tone... but I got a reply today from a friend who has a few harp guitars. He's running about 20 - 25 lbs. on those strings, and they sound piano-like, like an acoustic phosphor-strung bass.

I thought about it, and ran with my acoustic go-to pedal, my Boss AD-8 Acoustic Instrument Processor. I use this to add reality to not just electric guitars when I want to sound acoustic (even though it's supposed to be piezo input, it does much the same thing to magnetic pickups), but to effect chains as well. 

Anyway, clean amplification, touch of reverb, 8-string 25.5" FM408... and out come the accusations of my having bought an instrument without checking finances. It sounded like a harp guitar, and my selfish immediate thought was that if at all possible, I'm talking the guitar, a small full range flat response amp, and the AD-5 the next time a vacation rolls around. The only thing I don't like is that everything but the Boss unit will run on batteries, but at 300 mA, I can put together 6 AA cells in a battery pack to get 9 hours of life... or, if I'm thinking of doing serious jamming or just wanting to busk, I can use 6 C cells for almost 24 hours of battery life. 

Naw... I like the idea of having a tiny rig. and I haven't had to busk in years....


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## in-pursuit (Aug 8, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Interesting. That's exactly the opposite of the argument made for longer scale lengths like 30" on ERGs, in that "only a longer scale length will enable you to maintain a guitar's tone on the lower strings." This particular point has been made all over the place here at SS.org.
> 
> Those two points of view, that additional scale length lets something sound more like a guitar, while simultaneously making it sound more like a bass, are impossible to reconcile. That's why I believe there is some other factor at play besides scale length....



I'd just like to mention something on this matter. When I was first getting interested in multiscale instruments I kept reading that they someonehow had a more unique tone to them which I found interesting. My curiosity eventually led me to the Novax site and an interesting page regarding the research the company had done to analyse the spectrum of harmonics that were produced by different scale lengths and how that affected the tone of the instrument. I would be highly interested to see if there were some kind of tonal relationship between ratios of scale lengths similar to the relationship between the frequency of a given note and its octaves. 

Here's a link to the page I mentioned if you'd like to check it out.

Novax Guitars: Information: Technical Lecture


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## Explorer (Aug 8, 2011)

I'll take some time later to read through the presentation, but I got just a bit into it and found the following assertion:

The set-neck, carved top Gibson Les Paul, with its mahogany body with a fitted maple cap and Tune-o-matic bridge, has a different tone from the bolt-on neck, solid ash body Stratocaster with tremolo bridge... obviously due purely to their different scale lengths. 

Wut?

I hope there's some solid information later in that presentation, but that tidbit makes me disinclined to invest the time in reading the whole thing after my long workday. With all the variables between those two examples, even an average guy like me was brought up short by that stunningly narrow conclusion.


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## bostjan (Aug 8, 2011)

"Sound like a bass" is a pretty widely ranged description.

I'm sure with heavy enough gauges and enough bands of EQ set right, you could fool a lot of people.

The tone that a string makes is primarily due to the string. The body woods, neck construction, etc., is peripheral to that. The string makes the sound, and everything connected to it shapes the sound. I opine that a different scale will make more of a difference in tone than a different wood (within reason - a change in 0.1" won't do much).

There is pretty good software that will do FFT's on input from the sound card so that you can quantitatively measure harmonic components of sound. During my undergraduate classes, I wrote a paper on the difference in harmonic contents of poplar versus mahogany. I'm sure technology has improved since then, but what I essentially did was to input the direct guitar output to the sound card and obtain the harmonic content in relative intensities.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 9, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I'll take some time later to read through the presentation, but I got just a bit into it and found the following assertion:
> 
> The set-neck, carved top Gibson Les Paul, with its mahogany body with a fitted maple cap and Tune-o-matic bridge, has a different tone from the bolt-on neck, solid ash body Stratocaster with tremolo bridge... obviously due purely to their different scale lengths.



While that simplification of the results of the study in question does seem very narrow and biased (and ultimately incorrect), the information presented to back it up is very convincing. In effect, the scale length is the only true SOURCE of tone, everything else simply filters that source tone in one way or another. 

It is a bit of a read but I'm positive you'll get something out of it. At the very least if you read through it and come to the conclusion that scale length doesn't influence tone as much as the article claims, then at least you have ruled out one possibility. To me the way the experiments were carried out seemed professional and thorough enough to warrant the results to be taken seriously.


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## Explorer (Aug 9, 2011)

Ah! I didn't get to the rest of the presentation yet, but that was his introduction... although he completely glossed over all the differences between the Strat and the LP *except* the difference in scale lengths. The fact that he focused on just one factor out of so many differences upon which to pin the difference in tone was what made me not invest the time until I had more time to concentrate. 

I hadn't meant to imply that the rest of the presentation didn't tighten up after his terrible introduciton, and I'm hoping that it does, but I'd rather read it when I'm relaxed enough to read it more critically than I would have, had he not gone off the deep end. 

Sorry, but did you not read that example? I wasn't the one who made the assertion about the only factor accounting for the Strat/LP tonal difference. If I misunderstood, I'd be happy to be corrected. Do I need to re-read that introduction, or did I get it right?


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## in-pursuit (Aug 10, 2011)

no you got it right, that is what he states in the intro.


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## Explorer (Aug 10, 2011)

Okay, i read the article in its entirety. 

I read about how, when you use progressively thicker strings at the same scale length for the same pitch, the progressively thicker strings are stiffer and stiffer due to the greater tension required to reach that pitch.* However, there is no assertion that a thicker string is inherently stiffer than a thinner string at the same tension. *

I read about a "clang tone." The only assertions I found in the ariticle about that tone were:



 The "clang tone" is constant for a given scale length, regardless of tension or gauge.
*The "clang tone" is brought about by percussive techniques*, as opposed to the normal plectrum and fingerpicking styles, rendering discussion of it *largely irrelevant for most guitarists*.
*The "clang tone" is brought closer to the fundamental of the open string as one goes for higher scale lengths. (in other words, you're bringing the "clang tone" more into play by using longer scale lengths, like going for 30" versus my preferred 25.5".)
*
 Fanned fret instruments spread the "clang tones" about.
There was nothing in the article about any differences in the proportions of the harmonics based on density, length, or any other factors. I didn't find any major assertion of why fanned fret instruments would have much advantage at all, other than the distribution of the clang for the open strings, and the clang being lower in absolute pitch for the longer strings.


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## knuckle_head (Aug 11, 2011)

FWIW - Jauqo IIIX plays his subcontra basses at the same tensions most ERG guys use on their 7/8/9 guitars . . . and he is quite free with what gauges he uses to get there.

I believe he was going with .195 for C#, .165 F#, .118 B, .080 E - but I could be wrong. SIT has him using a .135 for B and a .100 for E but that seems tight given what I know of his preferences.

And also, fwiw, I believe specific gauges at specific tensions define the tone a string presents, regardless of scale length. If you have a .052 at E on bottom on a 25.5, I assert you would get the same tonality and playability out of that same string at D on a 28.5.


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## Jauqo III-X (Aug 13, 2011)

knuckle_head said:


> FWIW - Jauqo IIIX plays his subcontra basses at the same tensions most ERG guys use on their 7/8/9 guitars . . . and he is quite free with what gauges he uses to get there.
> 
> I believe he was going with .195 for C#, .165 F#, .118 B, .080 E - but I could be wrong. SIT has him using a .135 for B and a .100 for E but that seems tight given what I know of his preferences.
> 
> And also, fwiw, I believe specific gauges at specific tensions define the tone a string presents, regardless of scale length. If you have a .052 at E on bottom on a 25.5, I assert you would get the same tonality and playability out of that same string at D on a 28.5.




Skip the gauges I use are C# (.195), F# (.165), low B (.125), and standard E (.100). And they are not tight at all.

And these are the gauges that I chose. These are not the gauges that SIT has me using(and no I am not being sarcastic).


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## knuckle_head (Aug 13, 2011)

Good to know - thanks for chiming in Jauquo.


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## Jauqo III-X (Aug 13, 2011)

You're welcome Skip.

The gauges that I listed are the exact gauges that's on The Low C# Theory cd.


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## Explorer (Aug 13, 2011)

Hey, Jauo! Long time no read!

You're an empirical guy, and it's nice to have your input. 

Incidentally, some video of you or another on that 15-string inspired me to go back and really work bass. It's interesting to approach an instrument from the ground up, abandoning any former thoughts/habits and really working the instructional material to be sure one understands it. 

I figure all this will only help at the point I go for a 9-string ERG.


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## Jauqo III-X (Aug 13, 2011)

Thank you Explorer.


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