# Thoughts about After Death or Afterlife, whichever...



## skeels (May 17, 2013)

So I read about a bunch of people's Grammas dying recently. It struck me as weird at first, then I thought "Old people dying? How odd!" 

I'm often sarcastic with even myself. Sorry.

First, I wanted to offer my condolences to anyone who suffers the loss of a loved one. I have gone through this and know it can be difficult to come to terms with. 

Personally, though, my beliefs on death usually take people aback a bit, because I am pretty nonchalant about it. Dying is a part of being alive and it should be respected and revered as much as any part of life. It's kind of sacred in that regard. We shouldn't fear it, or view it as "unfair". 

When my grandmother died, the whole family came together and I could find nothing else but reasons to celebrate her life. I spent time with each member of the family and realized I was doing more to spread that joy than wallow in my own selfish sense of loss.

Seeing as that nobody knows exactly what our experience might be after that point (death), my perspective is that it is a journey into the unknown. I think that there is likely something- how can we recall our dreams if we do not awaken?

I am not afraid of dying. I just want to make sure I have left the proper things behind. 

Yoda said it pretty dang well....
"Luminous beings are we. Not this *crude* matter." 

So, uhhh, what's your take?


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## Captain Shoggoth (May 17, 2013)

I agree, these thoughts cropped up for me when I read those posts, my grandmother died last March and it really brought things back.



skeels said:


> When my grandmother died, the whole family came together and I could find nothing else but reasons to celebrate her life. I spent time with each member of the family and realized I was doing more to spread that joy than wallow in my own selfish sense of loss.



Looking back I remember the situation and my involvement being much the same, and truly it is beautiful in that sense. Thank you for making this thread and reminding me of that, even if unlike you I cannot say that I do not fear death.


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## fps (May 17, 2013)

In terms of dying, I would say this. 

"What do you remember of your experiences before you lived?"

Death is the same.


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## Vinchester (May 17, 2013)

My loss of loved ones started with my dad. One holiday morning in 2009 we found him lifeless in his bed, apparently a sudden heart attack. This surprised everyone because he was 51 years old and in excellent health with not much stress. Through the whole ordeal I was shocked but surprisingly composed. 

My take on dying is that we are a part of nature, and in nature things change. I don't believe in religion. I don't believe in afterlife, I think it's for people who still cannot accept the end and still try to make up some self-consoling stories that all things will be settled in heaven blah blah. I don't need that story at all. To be honest I don't even expect to live longer than 50, in case the same thing happens to me. And I'm totally fine with it. 

The important thing is that you live a meaningful life and leave behind a positive mark in the world, and that's what my dad had done.

It's a different story when I lost my friend in 2010 though. He was 23, a genius graduate from nanoengineering, and was about to be accepted into MIT. He could have won a Nobel within a few decades. Lost potential just pisses me off so much. 

Sorry it's a bit long, but deaths of close ones really affect my way of living.


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## BucketheadRules (May 17, 2013)

I don't think about my own death. Should I?

Thinking about the deaths of those around me terrifies me. I dread to think of people I love being gone. I don't believe in the afterlife, which I reckon is good in many ways but does mean I have no spiritual "comfort blanket" as it were - once people go, they're gone.

When my time comes, I probably will feel a bit scared, but I dare say it might not be as bad if I felt I'd achieved what I wanted to with my time.

Fuck me, this is a bit much for me on a Friday night. I need to go to bed, I've got an early shift at work tomorrow.


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## skeels (May 17, 2013)

See, to me death can only be change. It's not "the end" by any means, especially if you look at it in the way fps put it- if death is to life what life is to before life, it actually makes it more appealing, like another opportunity at some different existence. 

I used to dread the loss of my loved ones. But then I thought that was a narrow, selfish view. They are the ones who have to face their death at their own time. I kind of beat myself up for this "poor brokenhearted me" train of thought. I would not be pleased if my kids were to die before me, but again, isn't that sort of selfish? I would hate to see their lives cut short, obviously, but if my thoughts are truly with them, I shouldn't be so wrapped up in my own little pity party.

We each get our own death, and we face it alone.


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## vilk (May 17, 2013)

I have never cared about someone dying. Not my uncle, or my grandma, or my grandpa, or my other grandpa, or my other grandma, or my aunts, or my pet fish, or my history teacher in jr. high, this kid I was friends with... I'm not sure why either. I'm just like, oh, well I guess I wont be running into them anymore. I see other people get really broken up over deaths of people who they barely know and I just can't wrap my head around that. However, I'm sure I would be very upset if my parents or sister died because I really like them.

My thoughts on the afterlife: it's made up bullshit for people who are more concerned with memories than real life. I wish there was a way to capitalize a period because that's what I just did. People are like " I luff my grannnnnnnma she'z in hebennnnnnnnnn wiff angelllllsss" and I'm just like jesus h christ why dont you grow the .... up. I know this post will be taken negatively and I'll get loads of negative feed back but I think it's important that some of you know there are actually loads of people who feel this way especially including me. Your consciousness is gone because your brain is dead because your body is a corpse. You wont feel or think anything ever again, you wont know that your dead, you wont 'exist' as some kind of energy-- and there's absolutely no evidence that would suggest you could or can or will.


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## MF_Kitten (May 18, 2013)

our "being alive" stops, because the electrical energy in our brain stops. We go from being alive to being a body. same thing, but without the electric processes and chemicals and flowing blood and moving parts. when it stops, it's gone, and you can't "restart" it.

without these things, there is no "you", and there is no juice to keep the internal organs moving and operating. There is no blood flowing to deliver the nutrients to the cells and stuff, and so the cells start dying, and the body starts decaying. Eventually it breaks down into the basic components we are made up of, and just as we have dined on nature, nature now dines on us.

That's all there is, and I don't believe in assuming anything more about it. There's no reason to.


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## Murmel (May 18, 2013)

The notion of everything just disappearing is what disturbs me the most. As mentioned earlier, you can't remember anything before you were born, so there shouldn't be anything to be afraid of really. Mainly because you won't even know you're dead because there will be nothing.

It's just that the "nothing" REALLY makes my mind spin, I can't imagine nothing because whenever I experience it, I'll always wake up from it. Until I die of course 

You can always specualte about heaven and hell though, and I quite enjoy doing so. Especially about practical things like; what will you look like? Is everything just clouds? Do you live forever in heaven? Are there enough chairs for the billions of people residing there?

I also have to admit that I'm a bit jealous of highly religious people. I really wish I could believe in something so strong, but no matter how hard I try I just can't. Some people say that it's ignorant, that you shouldn't hide yourself from reality, but reality is a ....ing pain in the ass a lot of times.


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## Abaddon9112 (May 18, 2013)

When we speak of a life after death, what we're saying is whether we continue to exist as a center of consciousness after we die. Scientists and philosopher seldom agree on even what consciousness IS, let alone what happens to it following the cessation of metabolic activity. I think understanding the nature of death would first require a much firmer understanding of the nature of consciousness than our civilization has. 

I know I certainly don't know what happens when we die, and I don't believe anybody else does either, whether they're a theologian or a neuropsychologist. 

But I think whatever death entails can't possibly be as bad as we tend to think, since it's the destiny of all of us. I have no real anxiety about dying, because whatever it is is a perfectly normal thing that we all go through.


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## jonajon91 (May 18, 2013)

I am not to into the whole life after death theories, but I am a strong believer in the whole 'everyone dies twice, once when their heart stops beating and again when the last person they know says their name'.
It is one of my aims to make the time-span between the two deaths as big as possible, and that means doing great while i'm alive.


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## flexkill (May 18, 2013)

fps said:


> In terms of dying, I would say this.
> 
> "What do you remember of your experiences before you lived?"
> 
> Death is the same.


Yep we where all dead before we where alive. Death itself is nothing to fear, the matter of how you go about dying might be the scary part. Skeels and I are alot closer to death than most of you whippersnappers around here ....now GET OFF MY LAWN!!!


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## Ginsu (May 18, 2013)

Some people find this unusual, since I have a fairly scientific approach to most things, but I believe in a literal Heaven, not just a bunch of people floating on clouds with wings and halos, that's silly, but a true sense of community with all the people around you, and the One who created you. I also believe in a literal Hell, which may or may not include flames, since Hell is really just eternal torment...it doesn't necessarily have to be burning, right? I understand that a lot of people think my beliefs are ridiculous, and I'm entirely okay with that.


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## L1ght (May 18, 2013)

On the topic of not being afraid of death, and for all of those that say, "I do not fear dying,"...

You say that now, but...


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## fps (May 18, 2013)

flexkill said:


> Yep we where all dead before we where alive. Death itself is nothing to fear, the matter of how you go about dying might be the scary part. Skeels and I are alot closer to death than most of you whippersnappers around here ....now GET OFF MY LAWN!!!



At what age is one officially granted a licence to use the term *whippersnapper*?


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## L1ght (May 18, 2013)

Maybe that's more of a badge of honor of having lived in the times when it was actually used, rather than how old you have to be to use it.


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## Ckackley (May 18, 2013)

We are energy. That "spark" that gives us life and forms our consciousness. Science says that energy can't be destroyed, just changed. I think , when we die one of a few things could happen. 
-Our energy is dispersed and reabsorbed by emerging new life. This would help explain past life memories or why multiple people could remember being the same person. 
-Our energy is dispersed and reabsorbed by the universe as a whole and the basic framework of reality. Think of "The Force" from Star Wars and "Becoming one with the Force"
- I think if a person is particularly strong willed or psychically gifted that individual may be able to maintain the composure of his/her consciousness. This would help explain "guardian angels" , ghosts, demons (Because who said all dead people are good), and that feeling you get when you could swear a dead loved one is watching out for you. 

All in all these are pretty romantic notions. I totally believe I could be as deluded as any one else. lol


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## ghostred7 (May 18, 2013)

To quote lyrics from Iron Maiden:

"There's a time to live and a time to die
When it's time to meet the maker
There's a time to live but isn't it strange
That as soon as you're born you're dying"

Live well, don't be a tool, etc. Bottom line...the last sentence of these lyrics sums it up to me. End of the day....from the second you're born...you're slowly dying.


Ckackley said:


> We are energy. That "spark" that gives us life and forms our consciousness. Science says that energy can't be destroyed, just changed. I think , when we die one of a few things could happen.
> -Our energy is dispersed and reabsorbed by emerging new life. This would help explain past life memories or why multiple people could remember being the same person.
> -Our energy is dispersed and reabsorbed by the universe as a whole and the basic framework of reality. Think of "The Force" from Star Wars and "Becoming one with the Force"
> - I think if a person is particularly strong willed or psychically gifted that individual may be able to maintain the composure of his/her consciousness. This would help explain "guardian angels" , ghosts, demons (Because who said all dead people are good), and that feeling you get when you could swear a dead loved one is watching out for you.



I also believe this aspect of it as well, especially believing in reincarnation.


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## L1ght (May 18, 2013)

I think maybe you watch too many science fiction movies, on the SciFi channel in particular.


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## groverj3 (May 18, 2013)

I don't believe in god, or a literal "heaven" but I have a hard time believing that nothing from our consciousness continues on. Whether or not we're able to perceive others, communicate, or are even self-aware, I have no idea.

As far as fearing death, do I fear it as a concept? No. However, I'd prefer not to die if given the chance .

So far, nothing has proven to me anything about what happens after death. I guess I'll find out when I get there. Hopefully a long time from now (never! ). I guess my plan is to live my life to the fullest that I can, according to my own sense of right and wrong, and try to have as few regrets as possible.


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## Datura (May 18, 2013)

I believe that when I die I'll simply cease to exist.


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## kevdes93 (May 18, 2013)

the thought of it terrifies me. every time i think about it it just encourages me to be the best person i can be.


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## Datura (May 18, 2013)

You only want to be a good person out of fear?


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## L1ght (May 19, 2013)

Datura said:


> You only want to be a good person out of fear?


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## Edika (May 19, 2013)

I don't believe in the afterlife either. It is comforting to believe that it's not the end but there is no proof there is something (aside from personal experiences that vary according to the persons beliefs and personal history).

Historically the promise of afterlife served two purposes, to calm and control the poor and uneducated population. Otherwise why would the vast majority put up with the exploitation and abuse they have been subjected to if they weren't afraid that they'll go to hell if they disobey a loving but at the same time vengeful deity. 

Personally I cope with this fact by trying to have a positive impact in society and my fellow humans, not because I will be rewarded by an ambiguous super being but because I would like to leave a better place to live for the next generations. Some of my beliefs and ethics may disagree with the harsh and subjective reality but it's what gives my life meaning.


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## MF_Kitten (May 19, 2013)

Many people use the whole "near death experience" thing to support their belief in an afterlife. Stories about people who have seen a "white light at the end of a tunnel" and all the other associated visions, for example when almost dying on the operating table. The problem is that in most of those cases they don't remember anything at all, and say that it all really just went black and they then woke up later on after the surgery. The visions and stuff are dependent on the right parts of the brain being starved for oxygen at the right time. Which basically just brings us back to square one: It's all in the brain.

To die is, most likely, just like fainting, and being dead is most likely just like being fully unconscious. The only thing missing is the waking up. If you've had surgery, and you've been completely "under" with anaesthesia, you just need to think back to what that was like. Not the falling asleep or waking up, but the being totally under. Can't remember it? It's just a hole in your memory? Exactly.

There is no scientific evidence of a "soul" of any kind. Everything that is associated with being alive and being conscious simply slows down and stops, and none of it leaves the body at any point.


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## skeels (May 19, 2013)

Lot of cool insights here. 

I have to take issue with the dogmatic notion that there is nothing though. 

First- resuscitation. Many people have been brought back from flat line and setup brain activity. The fact is that these conditions and experiences are beyond our understanding. 
Now, I used to subscribe to a secular humanist sorry of ideal, in that I probably have this world a little more credit. The re is nothing wrong with any beliefthat encourages people to be nice to each other. 

However, laws of thermodynamics and conservation of energy aside, I began to feel as though my perspective of "Being" and "nothingness" was perhaps very narrow. 

Having been as close to death (my own and others' ) as I have, the sheer unknown and unknowing off it all is the only certainty we have. Some people take things on faith, whether it's a "better place" kind of ideal or a "we're just dead" kind of shrug. Life itself is very very special and from what we can see in our universe, very uncommon. 

We possess the cognitive ability to ask "Is that all there is? "

Pretty owners-how about your pets? Do animals have similar consciousness?


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## Edika (May 19, 2013)

I agree with MF Kitten but just wanted to point out that when I was under for an operation I saw lot's of dreams. Maybe it was at the waking part cycle of the anesthesia wearing off. But that showed that my brain was still alive and able to produce dreams.

To Skeels, in flat line situations and resuscitation what scientists have claimed is that it is the effort of the brain to stay alive and fire all neurons at once trying to avoid death. That could slow the perception of time and what might be instants or even minutes, might seem like hours or even more. And as MF Kitten said it depends on the individual and the parts of the brain that will trigger this.

I think it is better to focus on what we can do with what time we have and not worry about what happens after life. If there is something it's an experience outside our sensory experiences and if there isn't then it's the end of us. I think everybody is more or else is afraid of ceasing to exist but most of us, due to an egocentric viewpoint, fear mostly that their life is inconsequential, that they just happened to be born while just the sperm next would have produced a different individual and that they are not as unique as they want to be. I would have to say that even the most influential human being (positive or negative) has value in the system of human society. That may affect our environment and maybe the existence of some other species but outside Earth we are squat. We are important until our civilization and quests for afterlife seize to exist.


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## MF_Kitten (May 19, 2013)

The problem with dreaming and seeing stuff while doped down, is the issue of identifying whether it was during or after the deepest point. It also depends on the anaesthesia. That's why I wanted to be clear by saying "completely" under. Alternatively, just apply fainting instead.

This leads me to the question of whether or not you can trust what you see or experience hen you're doped up or dying and oxygen deprived. When your brain isn't getting enough oxygen, and it starts firing off neurons left right and centre in a frantic irrational attempt to stay alive, and you happen to survive... Can we really lay any claim to the validity of what you see? If your brain fires off the neurons responsible for vision, the neurons responsible for memories, and if the part responsible for your sense of physical presence is shutting down... What would you expect that to be like VS what people explain when they talk about their near-death visions?


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## skeels (May 19, 2013)

Two points- one is that the brain is a far more powerful thing than we give it credit for. Arguably the dreams conjured forth by our own thoughts are illusions constructed by the electric impulses of our brains coupled with our own learned predispositions. The fact that we don't clearly understand how our minds work is in and of itself an important notion. 

I give little credence to white lights at the end of tunnels but so many inexplicable things around within our realm of perception than are able to be answered easily. 

Two. I was given liquid morphine once to put me under for a procedure and it was like an on/off switch. No counting backwards stuff. Just boop! Off. Boop! On. 

I guess the question remains, are our consciousnesses dependant upon memory or do or thoughts or intuitions or feelings exist on a level that we are unable to perceive or quantify?


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## DoomJazz (May 19, 2013)

I don't care about death, to answer your question, but I do think that we are only prepared when we feel fulfilled in this life.


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## Edika (May 19, 2013)

To MF Kitten I am sure it wasn't at the deepest point, probably near the time I was about to wake up. I don't know much about anesthesia but logically it must put you out deeply not to wake up from surgeons cutting into you. Also you can't trust your perception of time while dreaming. I know REM cycles don't last long so it might feel long but it actually isn't.

To Skeels it seems it all starts and ends with biology. If a person suffers severe brain damage or neural degradation he is not the same person anymore. Behaviors and moods may change due to hormones. Our personality is sculpted by the experiences we have along with some genetic predisposition. It is highly unlikely that a personality that requires such a complex system to sustain it could exist in an incorporeal form. To people considering our thoughts as electromagnetic waveforms that travel in the universe, they should consider that the electromagnetic waves that are produced from electrical neural activity are of very very low intensity and very well shielded in our skulls.


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## WestOfSeven (May 20, 2013)

I'm not sure why people overthink death so much.

When your body fails you cease to exist and all that's left is a corpse.


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## WestOfSeven (May 20, 2013)

Has anybody else had a near death experience and have had your entire life flash before your eyes?

Any thoughts about why that happens? It's like time stands still and you relive your life, just a little messed up.


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## EdgeC (May 20, 2013)

To be honest I&#8217;m still formulating my theory on the soul and what happens after death etc. So far, I would probably say that any type of theological afterlife is unlikely and is an invention of man to rationalise death.

However, the question depends on whether you subscribe to the soul (mind) and body being two distinct elements existing as a dichotomy and when the body dies the soul is released. If the soul dies with the body or does not exist as a separate essence then that's it. We return to the state of 'unbeing' from which we came.

But if you believe the soul transcends the body after its death you open a veritable Pandora &#8217;s Box of possibilities. No theory or belief is off limits.

I wouldn't say I believe in reincarnation but one thing I do believe is that I presently exist in this body and have done so since birth. If I exist now then I can quite easily consider that I (not necessarily the same I) may exist again. I would also assume that if this were the case that the cycle of death and birth would be as seamless as going to sleep and waking up with no concept of time elapsed.

But then you introduce many complexities to which I presently have no answer for.


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## Idontpersonally (May 20, 2013)

skeels said:


> Yoda said it pretty dang well....
> "Luminous beings are we. Not this *crude* matter."
> 
> So, uhhh, what's your take?



I was pretty nonchalant about it. So much so that i didnt go to the funeral although i probably should have. I believe in an afterlife and ghosts and all that but i dont really go to funerals. Personally i dont want one.


@ Edge about transcending the body i think both life and death are based on probability and potential already. I think you can still explore theories about consciousness after death while staying within the fundamental laws of nature and reality. It just steps outside of classical/newtonian physics thats all. because you have to factor in subjective and objective data that supports that belief system.


The answers to the complexities about what happens next would be the same answers to the problems you were solving the first time around that you didnt live long enough to find out. Every time you exist you would be starting all over from zero consciousness. Some people believe in reincarnations, past lives etc because they get reminded a lot ie: the concept of "ive been here before or nostalgia". Every life/ you is a learning process that takes much longer to process than the few short years we have on earth imo.


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## skeels (May 20, 2013)

Great stuff here.

Edika- Biology seems to me to be too simple an answer. However, perhaps it is indeed an evolutionary one- perhaps it is the function of life and living things to develop a transcendance of mundane forms. Evolution cannot explain art or music or ideals which are motivated by purely intuitive motives. Perhaps what we see with our wordly senses is merely the tip of the iceberg so to speak, in that we are only in our evolutionary infancy and only begining to cultivate a real and true perspective of reality. Science seems to continually show us that there is more than meets the eye and the universe functions on many different levels, each seeming to follow their own particular set of rules.

West- we are bored.

Edge- Even though I am already old and half dead, I too do not have a set belief in these matters. Death itself can only be experienced and not explained. It is not fully understood and anyone who says "we're just dead- that's the end" may as well be saying "we go to the clouds and get wings and play harps". Nobody knows. I do like your allusion that our bodies may just be shells that we cast off upon dying.

Idon't- Yeah, I don't like funerals either. Funerals aren't for me, but I have found that my presence has helped others cope with things a little more easily. I don't want a funeral either. Cremation? Meh..I would actually rather just wander off by myself in the middle of nowhere when I felt it so that no one could ever say "Did you hear about skeels? He died." They would say "Did you hear about skeels? He disappeared."


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## Sepultorture (May 20, 2013)

my thoughts are this

for us, this time we spend on earth is all we have. i don't personally believe in afterlife, heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation, ghost, becoming a spirit or a being of energy that leaves it's host upon death.

i don't care for the thoughts of something after as to me it feels as though it's nothing more than a comforting notion for those that fear death, they hope that there is more beyond the end of life on earth and that death isn't just a complete end, or oblivion of self.

i spend everyday as any other, i worry, i love, laugh, sometimes cry, i am human and we all as humans experience this all. but i cherish any and all of these moments as i feel that this time i have on earth will be all that i have to experience and enjoy it. 

after my heart ceases to beat and my mind ceases to think, and i cease to be. all that i ever want beyond death is for others to remember me and what impact i had in their lives, be it good or bad or in between is inconsequential, but that i left an imprint of myself on them and they speak of me is all i ask beyond the end of my life.

IF there is something beyond the darkness, i guess i will have to wait and see, but all i care about is now, as now is all that really matters really. the past is the past and the future is yet to come, but there is and always will be now.

cheers brothers \m/


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## morrowcosom (May 20, 2013)

I think that after we meet death we are dead.


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## vilk (May 20, 2013)

morrowcosom said:


> I think that after we meet death we are dead.


deep, bro.


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## DoomJazz (May 21, 2013)

Part of me doesn't really believe in an afterlife, but I also feel like my consciousness or energy, whichever, whatever, is too stubborn to cease to exist


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## hairychris (May 21, 2013)

Wormfood, basically.

Any immortality is through your works and the memories of the folks who knew you. Live well, and be remembered well from it, that's what I say. Too many folks turned up to my father's funeral to seat them, that says something, and as such we celebrated his life as well as said farewell. (Him & my mum are Anglican, I'm... not, although was christened. We haven't had any fights about it. Yet.) 

Being dead doesn't worry me, not too happy about the process of getting there though!


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## Edika (May 21, 2013)

skeels said:


> Edika- Biology seems to me to be too simple an answer. However, perhaps it is indeed an evolutionary one- perhaps it is the function of life and living things to develop a transcendance of mundane forms. Evolution cannot explain art or music or ideals which are motivated by purely intuitive motives. Perhaps what we see with our wordly senses is merely the tip of the iceberg so to speak, in that we are only in our evolutionary infancy and only begining to cultivate a real and true perspective of reality. Science seems to continually show us that there is more than meets the eye and the universe functions on many different levels, each seeming to follow their own particular set of rules.



I can understand that but honestly by me defending Biology is by no means a simple answer . Living organisms are complex systems and the more parts they have the more complex they are. We have a lot to learn about the brain itself, how that ties to personality and what the extents and limits of our intellect might be. Of course we perceive our everyday life through our senses and it has limitations. That is why in science we have created and continue to create/evolve tools that will let us view parts of the universe we wouldn't normally see.
And up to a point evolution can explain art, music and ideals. It gave us the tools to create and evolve them. It took however a lot of time to bring them to their current level and people tend to forget the history that is involved in that.


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## Rev2010 (May 21, 2013)

Interesting personal experience story to follow below this paragraph:

I have no desire whatsoever to argue beliefs. I'll just say my piece. I'm agnostic, not religious in a conventional sense at all. I don't believe in any of the founded religions and actually am rather against them. I tend to be more scientific in most of my thinking and am interested in all the various forms of physics and have read many books by many authors (Sagan, Hawking, Kaku, Thorne, etc). When it comes to life after death however I tend to think there simply must be simply because if there isn't existence would be completely pointless. If a whole civilization existed for millions of year and never got off their planet then got wiped out by an asteroid what would have been any purpose to their entire existence? Anyhow, here's my story which changed a lot for me:

I had a friend I grew up with since Kindergarten die at about 20 years old, can't recall his exact age at death this many years later. We were best friends all through growing up until high school when his father sent him to some Greek private highschool when he wanted to be with his friends in public school. We still got together on occasion and he always complained about how controlling his father was. One of the last things I'd said to him was when he told me his father just chose what college he was going to, "Peter, you have to put your foot down and start making your own decisions. You can die tomorrow and if we do get to look back at our lives you might regret not standing up to him and making your own choices". He told me I didn't understand what it's like having a strict greek father.

Only a few days after he died I was sleeping and suddenly became completely awake, though still asleep. I knew I was asleep in my bed and fully conscious, but this was quite different than lucid dreaming, which I've experienced and when I do I wake up very quickly after realizing I'm dreaming. Not so in this experience. I was basically in a white cloud surrounding, so stereotypical of heaven and all that, but just white clouds. I started seeing a figure come towards me and he walked through the clouds and it was my friend Peter. He was nicely dressed in a suit, appeared happy and peaceful, and he told me he wanted me to know he was ok. We talked briefly of what I can't recall after all these years. But after our brief conversation he said, "I have to go now" and turned and started to walk back into the white clouds. I quickly called to him, "Peter, wait... so there is life after death?" and he turned to me, smiled, and said, "Of course there is!" and walked off and within two seconds my eyes opened. I didn't wake up, it was like I then just opened my eyes and had already been laying there awake.

I know those that are completely closed to the possibility of life after death will shrug this off and say it was a personal mental experience, one I needed to have. As I said before, I will not argue this, but suffice to say I know this experience was different than any other I'd ever had. I wasn't dreaming, I wasn't lucid dreaming. Does it's prove anything? No, but it definitely had a strong effect on me.


Rev.


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## TheKindred (May 21, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> Many people use the whole "near death experience" thing to support their belief in an afterlife. Stories about people who have seen a "white light at the end of a tunnel" and all the other associated visions, for example when almost dying on the operating table. The problem is that in most of those cases they don't remember anything at all, and say that it all really just went black and they then woke up later on after the surgery. The visions and stuff are dependent on the right parts of the brain being starved for oxygen at the right time. Which basically just brings us back to square one: It's all in the brain.



Generally that experience is associated with the flood of DMT you get at death.


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## Idontpersonally (May 21, 2013)

skeels said:


> .I would actually rather just wander off by myself in the middle of nowhere when I felt it so that no one could ever say "Did you hear about skeels? He died." They would say "Did you hear about skeels? He disappeared."



This^









skeels said:


> I guess the question remains, are our consciousnesses dependant upon memory or do or thoughts or intuitions or feelings exist on a level that we are unable to perceive or quantify?



Imo memory is an illusion and what we need to know we'll know when we need to know it. We wouldnt have questions/problems if part of us didn't already know the answer/solutions. I also think science is already attempting to quantify consciousness. Feelings exist on higher level than emotions, emotions operate in the lowest form of consciousness and thoughts the highest. In esoteric psychology consciousness is associated with the heart rather than being just a mass of neural tissue in the head because the em waves of the heart are stronger than the brains.

@ rev i had an experience sort of like that. My bassist and i were talking about religion/spirituality a few days before he died he said he never made it to [i forget the age] in a past life and i said i never made it to 15. He said he needed a spiritual enema. He was getting depressed and wondering why everything in his life was ....ing up and i said he was going through a period of death and he laughed. I was basically implying that it was a phase that would play itself out... but yea anyway he's the reason i got into physics, science, playing again and he died right after i recorded my first tracks. I had a dream we were all playing and everyone disappeared one by one and i was playing by myself. I do remember him saying[ IRL] he was going with the eastern beliefs though...We were basically trying to figure out eastern/western religion in the fewest possible words but it came out really horrible and contradictory sounding and we were both like' wtf no i really meant... 'lol...yea anyway
thats my .02 x2


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## skeels (May 21, 2013)

More awesome stuff.

I especially like to hear about people's personal experiences. Nothing can strike home better than something that has happened directly to you. So many of us have had completely inexplicable things occur in our lives- things diifcult to realy to another person. Often, we need totake stock in their importance rather than explain them away as trivial or inconsequential.

Which leads me to.... evolution. Edika's post got me thinking. Being able to wield the tools that create art does not explain the deep need for art. Much like we have "evolved" the tools with which to kill each other efficienlty, or to drive long distances in comfort and style, yet the reasons for killing and travelling are mysterious. To avoid circular logic, we should not say we have evolved a certain thing- whether it be wisdom or logic or sarcasm- simply because we exhibit it. We have evolved to learn things. But most often the things we learn are chosen by us. Of all the creatures of this world, we seem to have far more freewill, or have learned to choose, more specifically, than any other. 

We can choose to sit around and be depressed all day if we like. Evolutionarily speaking, not a very valuable skill. Brain chemistry aside, our mental and intellectual state is powerfully driven and molded by choices we make based on intuition and character, which can develop seemingly independantly of enviromental conditions. 

Case in point. Do you know anyone who has had a shitty life, gotten the shaft, been abused, mistreated, neglected and is a super cool person? Conversely, know anyone who has been raised in a happy, well-adjusted home with all the best things in life and they're a jerk? I'm sure we all do.

Much of life seems to be a draw of the cards, and yet as powerful a device that the mind is, there seems to be something that is even more powerful and determined that can bend this thinking organ to its will. Perhaps it is will. Perhaps that is the force that drives life and drives evolution. But perhaps, if this is true, evolution is as yet incomplete and we are merely only partly awakened to its real goal. Perhaps life as we know it is only a small manifestation of its complete nature.


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## GMCUV7 (May 22, 2013)

Interesting discussion. There still seems to be some design going on in existence. Solid matter, elements, and planets. There is something going on in the creation of matter.

Maybe a scientist will bring us back to life in the next 200-500 years after technology advances exponentially.
For example, space travel or DNA was not even a suspicion 400 years ago.

Maybe you will wake up, revived in the future...remembering that your last thought had been "Djent" before you died.


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## skeels (May 28, 2013)

So... Kind of ironic my thoughts have been dwelling on death lately. A guy I knew- not good friends, but a good guy- died in his sleep last night. Lot of people I know are bummed out. 

Frankly, Jeff Hanneman dying affected me a little more. I mean, this guy_ I knew _was a good guy and had a positive and profound impact on a lot of people's lives here. I always thought of him as a shining example of tolerance and acceptance in a crowd of people prone to judgemental and hypocritical attitudes. 

It kind of gives me less tolerance to their attitudes, you know? I mean, here was this great guy, everybody says what a great guy he was. A few of his friends are really nice people, but a lot of them are shallow and vain and self-centered and it kind of riles me up.

I know perhaps I should be more like him, all tolerant and accepting but I'm kind of like "the hell with that" - Life is too short for BS. Look at this dude. Only a couple of years older than I, didn't smoke or party. Went to sleep one night, enlarged heart, never wakes up. 

Ex wife number two knew him and I can't simultaneously sympathize with her sorrow and put up with further BS from her. 

Is that kind of cold hearted? I'm just viewing grief and mourning right now as disrespectful and selfish. It seems like a frivolous way to remember a person- or people, in light of "Memorial Day"- when what we should really strive to do is just be less stupid and self-absorbed. 

Wow. I'm venting, aren't I? Sorry.

Carry on.


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## vilk (May 28, 2013)

I'm really much more concerned with Death After Life


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## sniperfreak223 (May 28, 2013)

I'm agnostic, and thus do not believe in the afterlife or any organized religion, but I do believe in the concept of the soul. As stated, science says that energy can neither be created or destroyed, so the energy inside of us has to go somewhere, whether that's to another body, either through reincarnation or through decay (providing a food source and energy for microorganisms), or the other argument that is simply changed from kinetic to potential energy. As to the other argument, there are some scientists who embrace the concept of a soul, as many believe a "soul" is the presence of consciousness within the brain, and death (well, at least brain death) occurs when that consciousness leaves the body, thus the "soul" leaves the body at the moment of death.

as to death itself, it has always seemed to follow me, I lost all 4 of my grandparents at a very young age, all within a 2-year time period, I watched two uncles and an aunt die from complications brought on by cancer, had one cousin run over by a truck and two killed overseas (one in Iraq in 2007 and one in Afghanistan in 2010), I have had many friends lost to suicides and drug overdose, even one murdered trying to protect his sister, and I nearly died on several occasions myself from liver and kidney issues, as well as a intra-cranial hemorrhage resulting from the treatment of the prior, my doctor is still amazed that I am not dead and have no serious brain damage (even though I've never fully regained sensation in the right side of my body). I am very close to death, but I feel the constant presence of loss has made me a stronger person in the long run.


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## narad (May 28, 2013)

I think as soon as you watch someone suffer from a debilitating brain disease you may start to consider the person you once knew to be gone, even though they're still alive and functioning to some level day-to-day. Shit's not like The Notebook either.

Then if you've reached that realization it really starts to tear at any notion of the soul. Brain cells start dying and people start becoming less and less of the person they once were. People can make pseudo-appeals to science by talking about energy being non-destructible, ebb and flow and the like, but if all of your brain cells have died there's not too much of you to go anywhere.

I'm personally hoping I'll have a predictable death such that my head can be frozen with a chance for future revival. Of course, you have to eventually let yourself go sometime before the ultimate heat death of the universe, but I'm more comfortable with that then a paltry 110 years of natural life I'll get if I'm extremely lucky.


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## Rev2010 (May 28, 2013)

narad said:


> Then if you've reached that realization it really starts to tear at any notion of the soul. Brain cells start dying and people start becoming less and less of the person they once were.



If someone believes in a soul then one can simply argue that the body is merely a vessel for a soul and if the body breaks down this is exactly what happens.

People get amnesia and become totally different people, they hate foods they loved, love foods they hated, and all sorts of weird differences in their "personality". But to what extent does personality become the very essence of a person's being?? I certainly am quite different than when I was young. I hated sushi then, but love it now. I've been through many different musical interests. So what? What does my brain functioning mean I can't have a soul and be something more than my physical embodiment?

Not saying I believe all this, just stating this for sake of argument because I always find it funny how people can so easily throw off an idea based on a simple observation. Sort of how people used to think the sun revolved around Earth merely because it appeared that way. IMO I think all this shit is way more complex than our human brains could possibly understand.


Rev.


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## Koop (May 28, 2013)




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## narad (May 29, 2013)

Rev2010 said:


> Not saying I believe all this, just stating this for sake of argument because I always find it funny how people can so easily throw off an idea based on a simple observation. Sort of how people used to think the sun revolved around Earth merely because it appeared that way. IMO I think all this shit is way more complex than our human brains could possibly understand.



It's funny you should mention that because the egocentric viewpoint is probably responsible for both the notion of a soul and the misconception that the sun revolves around the earth.


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## skeels (May 29, 2013)

narad said:


> It's funny you should mention that because the egocentric viewpoint is probably responsible for both the notion of a soul and the misconception that the sun revolves around the earth.




Perhaps our ego is responsible for thinking that our thoughts are our true essence.


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## Rev2010 (May 29, 2013)

skeels said:


> Perhaps our ego is responsible for thinking that our thoughts are our true essence.



Or perhaps our ego is responsible for people thinking they have everything figured out, can explain away anything unknown, and tell others their beliefs are false  


Rev.


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## Rook (May 29, 2013)

Something that has always fascinated me, why has something clearly capable of creating life evolved to die?

*spooky music*


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## hairychris (May 29, 2013)

Rook said:


> Something that has always fascinated me, why has something clearly capable of creating life evolved to die?
> 
> *spooky music*



Simple - we evolved only far enough to reproduce, at which point evolution forgets you. That's the only fitness that is required (although there is definitely an argument that in complex organisms family/society and elders helps increase the likelihood that this will happen).

In other words as long as those nasty things that happen when you're older don't affect you at reproductive age then nature doesn't care...


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## hairychris (May 29, 2013)

Rev2010 said:


> Or perhaps our ego is responsible for people thinking they have everything figured out, can explain away anything unknown, and tell others their beliefs are false
> 
> 
> Rev.



Someone needs to actually demonstrate this soul thing...! 

EDIT - also it's possible to say that certain things are incorrect even if we don't know all the facts eg I know that you don't have the River Nile in your pocket, even if I don't know what's actually in there!


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## yellow (May 29, 2013)

Just from my experience (from dying once before), it's not much different than here. At the same time, there are/can be some differences depending on your choice and the level of consciousness that you can heighten/alter/develop in this world that make it different, some call it "heaven" or "hell," but again, its your choice. You can look more into it, and you can see it now (and GOD FORBID you die but do come back into this world, you'll see what I mean). In the end, it's nothing to fear, simply the end of this life's beginning, and the beginning of the next one's end (and no, i am not talking of hinduism/hinduist beleifs of past lives and reincarnation, though again, it depends on you). I highly recommend attempting to achieve "supreme enlightenment" or "god-consciousness" or "self-realization" or "immortality" or "annihilation of the ego" depending on the philosophy you ascribe to, but in the end, It's all good Rev.


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## sage (May 29, 2013)

4th generation atheist, hopefully raising a 5th generation (wife's lapsed Catholic guilt keeps creeping in). Get as much out of life as you can while you're here, ain't nothing coming after.


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## Rook (May 29, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Simple - we evolved only far enough to reproduce, at which point evolution forgets you. That's the only fitness that is required (although there is definitely an argument that in complex organisms family/society and elders helps increase the likelihood that this will happen).
> 
> In other words as long as those nasty things that happen when you're older don't affect you at reproductive age then nature doesn't care...



What do you mean evolved far enough to reproduce?

Life in general goes through a process of 'birth' or creation, growth, whatever you want to call it, why would nature make that stop. If we can do it once, why not again?

All life exists with the intention of dying, why?

EDIT: Genuine question, just read it back it sounds really snarky hahaha


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## narad (May 29, 2013)

Rook said:


> All life exists with the intention of dying, why?



Intention seems a bit strong. I might build a house with the intention of living in it. If I later move on and abandon it, it's not my also my intent to destroy it. Many years of neglect while weathering the sun, rain, and snow will reduce it to kindling just the same. 

Things are well-kept only while they have a purpose -- in life that purpose is reproduction. From an evolutionary standpoint there's no way your later life concerns can be addressed when they're so far removed from your reproductive golden years. Evolution by design (poor choice of words!) can only optimize the fitness of a population up to and around their prime procreating years.

Perhaps if there was intent to die people might go a bit more gracefully, rather than being confused, aching, and pooping themselves.


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## Blackheim (May 29, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> Many people use the whole "near death experience" thing to support their belief in an afterlife. Stories about people who have seen a "white light at the end of a tunnel" and all the other associated visions, for example when almost dying on the operating table. The problem is that in most of those cases they don't remember anything at all, and say that it all really just went black and they then woke up later on after the surgery. The visions and stuff are dependent on the right parts of the brain being starved for oxygen at the right time. Which basically just brings us back to square one: It's all in the brain.
> 
> To die is, most likely, just like fainting, and being dead is most likely just like being fully unconscious. The only thing missing is the waking up. If you've had surgery, and you've been completely "under" with anaesthesia, you just need to think back to what that was like. Not the falling asleep or waking up, but the being totally under. Can't remember it? It's just a hole in your memory? Exactly.
> 
> There is no scientific evidence of a "soul" of any kind. Everything that is associated with being alive and being conscious simply slows down and stops, and none of it leaves the body at any point.



Even I am 200% agree with your statements and I am not sure if believe or not in an afterlife, God, soul, etc... I do hope there's something after we die. Somewhere when we meet with the people that meant a lot for us. 

But, it is irrational, everything its in our brains. Love, wrath, hate, hunger, everything is managed by our heads and the impulses the brain receive from the remaining parts of our body. 

Our identities and memories are bond together and their managed by our brains. There's no way we can have any kind of logical consciousness without our bodies. We can't transcend.


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## Winspear (May 29, 2013)

I don't know, or particularly care if there is an afterlife. I put little thought into it, because we can't possibly know - and presumably we would live life to the fuller if we believe there is nothing to follow (as opposed to people who spend there entire life trying to improve their afterlife, etc). I will live my life to the fullest and hopefully achieve what I want to before I die. If there so happens to be something else that I am consciously aware of afterwards, then that's all well and good! I hope there is something, for sure - but I will live my life like this is the only shot we get. Afterall, I doubt there are 9 strings in Heaven anyway.


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## narad (May 29, 2013)

EtherealEntity said:


> I don't know, or particularly care if there is an afterlife. I put little thought into it, because we can't possibly know - and presumably we would live life to the fuller if we believe there is nothing to follow (as opposed to people who spend there entire life trying to improve their afterlife, etc). I will live my life to the fullest and hopefully achieve what I want to before I die. If there so happens to be something else that I am consciously aware of afterwards, then that's all well and good! I hope there is something, for sure - but I will live my life like this is the only shot we get. Afterall, I doubt there are 9 strings in Heaven anyway.



Who needs heaven when you have a Vik?


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## Rook (May 29, 2013)

narad said:


> Intention seems a bit strong. I might build a house with the intention of living in it. If I later move on and abandon it, it's not my also my intent to destroy it. Many years of neglect while weathering the sun, rain, and snow will reduce it to kindling just the same.
> 
> Things are well-kept only while they have a purpose -- in life that purpose is reproduction. From an evolutionary standpoint there's no way your later life concerns can be addressed when they're so far removed from your reproductive golden years. Evolution by design (poor choice of words!) can only optimize the fitness of a population up to and around their prime procreating years.
> 
> Perhaps if there was intent to die people might go a bit more gracefully, rather than being confused, aching, and pooping themselves.



Intent was absolutely the wrong word.

All life exists with the eventuality of dying 

My point was why if life's natural purpose is to exist and sustain would it drop the ability to renew cells and grow and not just live forever. Rocks don't stop being rocks until something stops it, suns continue to burn until they run out of fuel but the reaction is self sustaining for millions of years.

Why exist if you're just going to die; or exist to create when that creation is just going to die, seems rather perpetually pointless.


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## Francis978 (May 29, 2013)

I am not one to really think about the afterlife all the time, I spent a long time fearing a Hell, but later decided that my life right now is what matters most, and I should make the most of what I have been granted.

In the end, afterlife or not, all I care about is that on my tombstone, how it says my date of birth, and my date of death, there is a dash separating them both, I want that dash to mean something. I want that dash to speak for itself, and I intend to make sure I live for that. 

I am somewhat curious though, if it just ends there, or if there is something more...


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## Rev2010 (May 29, 2013)

@Rook - excellent post, and that question of perpetual pointlessness coupled with the experience I had with my dead friend visiting me are the two strongest things having me considering the possibility of an afterlife. I don't feel it's likely due to religion or the notion of a soul, but because if there isn't all of life seems to be a pointless play, and for who's entertainment? Then there's the fact that everything has always existed and merely changes form. Something existed before our universe and will exist after, so regardless in some way I will live on, even if my consciousness doesn't continue. 


Rev.


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## anunnaki (May 29, 2013)

I had a lot of anxiety over the question of whether there is an afterlife or not but then I read a lot of information on the site near-death.com and I wasn't worried too much anymore. The holographic brain and holographic universe theory are quite interesting. I don't think I can really base whether I believe in something based on what I read though, I think personal experiences are the only thing that can really sway you one way or another, which is why I aim to learn more about spirituality and see if I can have some spiritual experiences by looking into meditation, yoga and ayahuasca. If anyone else has had spiritual experiences or knows much about meditation, yoga or ayahuasca I'd love to hear from you!


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## Idontpersonally (May 29, 2013)

anunnaki said:


> I had a lot of anxiety over the question of whether there is an afterlife or not but then I read a lot of information on the site near-death.com and I wasn't worried too much anymore. The holographic brain and holographic universe theory are quite interesting. I don't think I can really base whether I believe in something based on what I read though, I think personal experiences are the only thing that can really sway you one way or another, which is why I aim to learn more about spirituality and see if I can have some spiritual experiences by looking into meditation, yoga and ayahuasca. If anyone else has had spiritual experiences or knows much about meditation, yoga or ayahuasca I'd love to hear from you!


Never have done ayahuasca yet but i have a foaf that gives free shamanic guides with it. Closest ive ever come to an ego death was with cubensis. I think its more efficient to have both an objective and subjective approach to and issue like this. Nothing wrong with a little skepticism either. Thinking about the afterlife no different than our present life [as a digital information system] removes the mysterious/ erie superstitious misconceptions that usually come to mind with the Oq, imho anyway. You may be interested in the tibetan book of the dead if your into yoga.


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## Rook (May 29, 2013)

Nice post Rev 

In all honesty my views are somewhat confined my solipsism, my consciousness is the only thing I know exists, death could be something my floating consciousness made up to make life appear favourable, to give it value, perhaps in the dimension in which my consciousness exists death, and life for that matter don't exist, nor even the concept.


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## anunnaki (May 29, 2013)

Idontpersonally said:


> Never have done ayahuasca yet but i have a foaf that gives free shamanic guides with it. Closest ive ever come to an ego death was with cubensis. I think its more efficient to have both an objective and subjective approach to and issue like this. Nothing wrong with a little skepticism either. Thinking about the afterlife no different than our present life [as a digital information system] removes the mysterious/ erie superstitious misconceptions that usually come to mind with the Oq, imho anyway. You may be interested in the tibetan book of the dead if your into yoga.



Cool, does your friend's friend have a website or something?
I haven't actually tried any psychedelics yet, I'll have to ease my way into it with weaker ones before I try ayahuasca haha
My point of view is, skepticism is good but having an open mind is important too.So don't believe everything you hear and don't dismiss everything you hear.
Yeah I have plans on getting a lot of books this summer, because I'm gonna be finishing school, so I'll add that to my list! I want to look into kundalini yoga, it seems interesting from what I've read, but I honestly know very little about yoga or meditation really.


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## Rev2010 (May 29, 2013)

anunnaki said:


> My point of view is, skepticism is good but having an open mind is important too.So don't believe everything you hear and don't dismiss everything you hear.



 This right here. I've come across so many people that boasted about their intelligence but dismissed anything outside of what they had already formulated an opinion toward. I had this one older guy at my job who was a hardcore leftist liberal and when I would say I'm agnostic he would berate me as being as being "unwilling to chose a side". He was an atheist btw. At one point he started talking politics and I'd said online political tests basically pegged me as Libertarian. His response was to roll his eyes and say, "Libertarians are people who want to be conservative and still smoke pot".  What a f*cking asshat. Thank God he got fired. 

I personally see nothing wrong with keeping an open mind - especially toward those things you can not fully prove or disprove.


Rev.


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## MF_Kitten (May 30, 2013)

you live on through the changes you made, and through the stories of the people who live on after you die. You will forever remain a name on a family tree, and your children and their children will have memories of you.

If you fear death, make sure to do something so great that people will remember you for it. Do something that will have your name forever associated with it somehow.


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## hairychris (May 30, 2013)

Rook said:


> What do you mean evolved far enough to reproduce?
> 
> Life in general goes through a process of 'birth' or creation, growth, whatever you want to call it, why would nature make that stop. If we can do it once, why not again?
> 
> ...



Not snarky, all cool here. 

It's how biological evolution works - through the children. No evolution can happen to an organism once it's alive, only through the mixing of DNA through sex or random mutation (more prevalent with things like viruses, etc). Life, whether you like it or not, is mechanical in this respect, and has reached this stage over billions of years. It seems that self-replicating life formed very quickly after the Earth was formed but it took billions of years to reach the cellular level. After that it got complex relatively quickly.

There's no cosmic "intention" here. It's how shit works! This is "Nature"!

The fact that *we* got to be *here* is mindblowing. And cool. We're all made up of atoms that were created in exploding stars, ffs. How awesome (in the original sense of the word) is that??

This is stuff that we know, can be demonstrated, for which there is evidence. Other stuff, like souls, has not been demonstrated. Why we *think* that we have souls is another matter - it could be linked to the way that our brains worked and the ability that we have for abstract thought, self-image and recognition, etc.

Anyway, nature is cool. The natural world is amazing. I'm all for an open mind - *however* I'm only going to be open to things for which there is evidence. Purely subjective experience ("I felt God", etc), however, is a really bad guide as the brain is massively complicated and throws some really weird errors sometimes. Hell, you hallucinate when you're really tired, for instance! We are also wired for pattern recognition, and for detecting agency in action - really helpful when you're on an African plain surrounded by predators, maybe not so much once we put that behind us.

Another thing - have you actually thought of what eternity means? I mean really considered the implications? 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years? No, you've not even scratched the surface of eternity. Screw that. The limited time is what allows us to create purpose in our own lives! And that's a good thing.


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## hairychris (May 30, 2013)

As a note I am off to see this at the weekend:

British Museum - Ice Age art: arrival of the modern mind

That is as close to immortality as I can think of. Sends shivers up my spine.


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## jwade (May 30, 2013)

I died, twice. I drank a ridiculous amount of alcohol, had some sort of seizure, and collapsed. The last thing I remember was standing up and saying "Guys, my head feels weird." and then everything went black. I woke up in a hospital bed the next day, hooked up to a bunch of machines. A nurse came into the room and asked a bunch of questions, and when I asked what happened, she said that my heart had stopped twice. The first time, I was dead for 2 minutes. They got my heart going again, only to have it stop again for another 3+ minutes.They barely got me going the second time, and the doctors had me hooked up to all the machines to keep me going while they waited to see if there was any brain damage. 

The fact that I woke up at all stunned them, and that it happened so soon afterwards really blew everyone away. They had me hooked up to a machine to monitor brain activity, and they told me that after they got my heart going the second time, there was no brain activity for hours. They thought I was in a vegitative state, but after a few hours, they said the machine went crazy with activity, as if everything was in overdrive. 

I remember literally nothing after the point when everything went black. Everything disappeared, and then I woke up. It was instantaneous for me, but in reality the gap was something like 14 hours.

I don't believe in God, or any of the various religions deities. I didn't see a 'white light' or see clouds or loved ones or have my life pass before my eyes. Everything went black, and then my eyes re-opened and everything was the same. 

I think that after death, the things that made you 'you' are more than likely still floating around on that meat hard-drive we call a brain, but the power cable has been damaged, and that hard-drive needs to be installed into a new computer.

I personally feel that the human brain is essentially an organic supercomputer, and mine just happened to suffer a hiccup, and needed a hard reset.


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## Experimorph (May 30, 2013)

jwade said:


> I remember literally nothing after the point when everything went black. Everything disappeared, and then I woke up. It was instantaneous for me, but in reality the gap was something like 14 hours.
> 
> I don't believe in God, or any of the various religions deities. I didn't see a 'white light' or see clouds or loved ones or have my life pass before my eyes. Everything went black, and then my eyes re-opened and everything was the same.


This here is basically how I imagine death. First of all, let me say that death is a two-sided coin to me: I acknowledge it all around us and it feels just as natural to me as birth and daily living. But at the same time I'm frightened by the scenario that my consciousness ceases to be.

The only way I can rationalize that is by thinking about the time I've been asleep, or more specifically the time asleep that I have no memory of. We all dream every night (exceptions excluded), but we have no memory of the times during other sleep cycles. Sometimes I go to bed at night and don't have a single memory of the time spent asleep when I wake up. It's just a gap, just like jwade said.

The only way I can understand... not being conscious anymore is taking that gap and extending it to forever. This proposes a completely new level of mindstorms, though, and I'm not sure how I co-operate with that subject.

I'm an atheist, I don't think there's any conscious afterlife waiting for us; it's best to use the time you're given and it's best to use it the way you want to be remembered for. The only afterlife is in the minds of the people you've interacted with.



> I think that after death, the things that made you 'you' are more than likely still floating around on that meat hard-drive we call a brain, but the power cable has been damaged, and that hard-drive needs to be installed into a new computer.


I believe the consciousness is completely tied to our brain functions as well. If we were to discover a way to extend the life of our brains without the need of other body parts, or should we be able to relocate the brains in another body host, we should be able to extend our conscious life. This again proposes many problems on a moral level.

That all said, I could be totally wrong about everything I wrote. I'm not saying that I'm right or someone else is wrong. It could be a matter we humans as a community will never know until we find out ourselves.


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## Idontpersonally (May 30, 2013)

Not sure if i imagine it exactly like this intro but this is a clip from a documentary 'the great liberation' about some tibetan monks who guided this guy through his death, this clip starts right after he died and they go on talking about the afterlife a little.



*edit...Got me thinking...


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## Rook (Jun 8, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Not snarky, all cool here.
> 
> It's how biological evolution works - through the children. No evolution can happen to an organism once it's alive, only through the mixing of DNA through sex or random mutation (more prevalent with things like viruses, etc). Life, whether you like it or not, is mechanical in this respect, and has reached this stage over billions of years. It seems that self-replicating life formed very quickly after the Earth was formed but it took billions of years to reach the cellular level. After that it got complex relatively quickly.
> 
> ...



I think you completely misunderstood the thought behind my question. I addressed it slightly in my later post haha.

Not devaluing your answer but it doesn't really apply to what I was actually saying - and it wasn't a question to be answered, more a thought exercise, it certainly wasn't supposed to prove the existence of a god or a soul.

In my opinion your answer and many others here are constrained by the assumption that the universe only exists and operates in way he have, will, or possibly attempt to conceive, in fact the universe and the mere fact that it exists is entirely abstract.

I'm a collection of molecules that had a billion billion billion billion to one chance of finding each other, in the grand scheme of things, in a universe that had a billion billion billion billion to one chance of even existing resulting in something that think's it's alive and has these fluffy things like emotions and likes and dislikes and hobbies.

It just seems ridiculous just saying it.

I suppose my point is, to attempt to state any kind of absolute about the universe, it's origin and the meaning of life just seems totally stupid. People are trying to play the big game but in a field they've laid out for themselves, we actually don't know what the rules are and likely can't know.


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## wat (Jun 9, 2013)

when u daid, u daid 

Ain't no cummin bake


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## wat (Jun 9, 2013)

I do think it will be possible to transfer consciousness to a digital form. The fact that we can use a machine linked to the brain to partially restore lost vision, is only a difference in degrees from replacing the entire organism with a digital apparatus to continue the conscious experience of the individual indefinitely


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## skeels (Jun 9, 2013)

^This is an interesting concept. I also feel that it points out a subtle incongruency in our understanding of consciousness. 

Sensory stimuli and perhaps even sense-memory could be digitized and recorded and even processed but the totality of the human psyche is far too complex for us to construct a mainframe that could house it, nor an operating system that could mirror its abstraction.

We contain far more than the sum total of our predictable, chemical, recordable brain functions and we have little knowledge of how we truly work.


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## sniperfreak223 (Jun 10, 2013)

MF_Kitten said:


> you live on through the changes you made, and through the stories of the people who live on after you die. You will forever remain a name on a family tree, and your children and their children will have memories of you.
> 
> If you fear death, make sure to do something so great that people will remember you for it. Do something that will have your name forever associated with it somehow.



Abraham Lincoln, himself a borderline suicidal manic depressant and a bit of a spiritualist, was once quoted, after being asked about fears of him being suicidal, as saying, " I cannot kill myself, for I have done nothing worth remembering". I really don't know why, but that one little quote has effected the way I live my life more than any church or scripture ever has. It matters not what happens when you leave this plane of existence, it matters what you did here. Your humanity is judged by your deeds on this earth, and if you do those deeds for the sole purpose of gaining entry into utopia, are you truly the person you think you are?I'm agnostic, but I still treat everyone with kindness, respect, and dignity, not to gain entry into heaven, but to forge a legacy worth remembering.


*edit* I also just found out I have Fahr's Syndrome, so now I get yet another horrible life experience to try to learn from, even though odds are this one will kill me in a few years, as there is currently no cure or even any effective course of treatment for it. I'm too young for this stuff.


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## anunnaki (Jun 10, 2013)

wat said:


> I do think it will be possible to transfer consciousness to a digital form. The fact that we can use a machine linked to the brain to partially restore lost vision, is only a difference in degrees from replacing the entire organism with a digital apparatus to continue the conscious experience of the individual indefinitely



I have heard of a project to transfer someone's personality and memories into a digital form in the future, but I don't think it would actually be you, it would just be a copy of you. That's providing that it would actually be possible, which in my opinion it wouldn't be. I think the brain is too complicated for people to be able to copy your memories and personality into a digital form. The only similar thing that I think could work would be to clone a new brain from that person and attempt to copy their memory and personality into that brain, and I have no idea how they would do that. Also, come to think of it I don't see the point in cloning a new brain, I think the futurama style head in a jar or becoming an android would be better if you wanted to extend your human existance. Albert Einstein said something interesting about that, apparently some of his last words,


> "I want to go when I want. It is tasteless to prolong life artificially. I have done my share, it is time to go. I will do it elegantly."


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Nov 30, 2013)

baron samedi said:


> I have never cared about someone dying. Not my uncle, or my grandma, or my grandpa, or my other grandpa, or my other grandma, or my aunts, or my pet fish, or my history teacher in jr. high, this kid I was friends with... I'm not sure why either. I'm just like, oh, well I guess I wont be running into them anymore. I see other people get really broken up over deaths of people who they barely know and I just can't wrap my head around that. However, I'm sure I would be very upset if my parents or sister died because I really like them.
> 
> My thoughts on the afterlife: it's made up bullshit for people who are more concerned with memories than real life. I wish there was a way to capitalize a period because that's what I just did. People are like " I luff my grannnnnnnma she'z in hebennnnnnnnnn wiff angelllllsss" and I'm just like jesus h christ why dont you grow the .... up. I know this post will be taken negatively and I'll get loads of negative feed back but I think it's important that some of you know there are actually loads of people who feel this way especially including me. Your consciousness is gone because your brain is dead because your body is a corpse. You wont feel or think anything ever again, you wont know that your dead, you wont 'exist' as some kind of energy-- and there's absolutely no evidence that would suggest you could or can or will.


Which always left me with this question, what causes the brain the to work, if it works when your alive, what happens to that spark or energy whatever you want call it when you die, is the brain what connects us to our bodies to become one with them i.e spirit/body dualism, like for example when someone is on life support everything else is working but they lose conscientiousness, sentience and "themselves", only being kept alive by electrical equipment.


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## Watty (Nov 30, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Another thing - have you actually thought of what eternity means? I mean really considered the implications? 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years? No, you've not even scratched the surface of eternity. Screw that. The limited time is what allows us to create purpose in our own lives! And that's a good thing.



Glad I'm not the only one to realize the implications associated with the first part of this sentiment. I mean, even if heaven were real and a place I could conceivably go after a lifetime of being an atheist, I'd turn down the offer and tell God to shove it. Not to say that having the option to truly die when I wanted (perhaps after another few centuries) wouldn't be nice (damn our short lifespans), but having to live on for "eternity" seems like a chore even if you were wrapped in a state of bliss for the entire time.

To be on topic: When we die, we die. The end.

*see Neil Degrasse Tyson's little soliloquy if you feel the need to be snarky about it!



joshuavsoapkid said:


> Which always left me with this question, what causes the brain the to work, if it works when your alive, what happens to that spark or energy whatever you want call it when you die, is the brain what connects us to our bodies to become one with them i.e spirit/body dualism, like for example when someone is on life support everything else is working but they lose conscientiousness, sentience and "themselves", only being kept alive by electrical equipment.



Dude....punctuation. Also the conscientiousness part had me rolling. I'm sorry, but it did.

The brain is a complex organ, and while linked to the functioning of our body for its own sake, is not always completely aware of everything going on around it. This is especially interesting when you consider those functions that are perpetuated regardless of our wanting them to be. I don't know if that even really answers your "questions," but obviously the brain is the intermediary between the "mind" and the "body." Whether you want to read anything into the mind being a separate and incorporeal entity that exists apart from the physical structure of our person in death is completely up to you.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Nov 30, 2013)

Watty said:


> Glad I'm not the only one to realize the implications associated with the first part of this sentiment. I mean, even if heaven were real and a place I could conceivably go after a lifetime of being an atheist, I'd turn down the offer and tell God to shove it. Not to say that having the option to truly die when I wanted (perhaps after another few centuries) wouldn't be nice (damn our short lifespans), but having to live on for "eternity" seems like a chore even if you were wrapped in a state of bliss for the entire time.
> 
> To be on topic: When we die, we die. The end.
> 
> ...


Sorry for the punctuational mistakes (I had just woke up when I wrote it) but your paragraph doesn't answer anything I asked, everything you wrote is stuff I'm already aware of.


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## skeels (Nov 30, 2013)

^ See this is what I believe Watt was refering to when he mentioned the brain, mind and body. However, I think the mind is better described as the will- this is the abstract force that motivates our thoughts and our emotions.

When mind, body and "spirit" are used to describe the three facets of we aas human beings, this "spirit" is always the noncorporeal part of us that eludes description and definition. Countless arguments and debates have been enteredon its behalf which I believe is testimony itself unto its sheer power and importance.

Our freewill and decisions, in addition to our most secret mysteries, are embedded in a part of us that refuse to be revealed except in the most subtle and yet undeniable ways. What causes art to compel itself through our lives and perceptions? What forces us to make choices regarding things we could never possibly hope to understand? Why are we drawn to contemplate things we cannot experience?

This is the enigma, the utter paradox of awareness. I cannot recognize dogmatic absolutes in any direction regarding knowledge of manisfestations of reality. I met a man once, a very religious man, who said fervently, " We CAN'T know." 

The Zen buddhists believe that death is to sleep after a long day's work. 

Let us work hard, during our day.


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## DoomJazz (Dec 1, 2013)

My take on it? Read my signature.


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## TheDeathOfMusic (Dec 3, 2013)

Jim Jefferies said my favourite quote on the subject:
"Heaven is supposedly a place of eternal bliss. Well, I don't care how blissful it is, if it's eternal then eventually you're gonna get ....ing bored of it."


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## zappatton2 (Dec 3, 2013)

I think the younger you are, the easier it is to be blasé about death, but the closer you are to it, the more unnerving it becomes. That said, I don't at all believe in an afterlife, and I do find comfort in the Monty Python quip "you come from nothing, you go back to nothing, so what have you lost? Nothing!" The fact we are lucky enough to experience consciousness, especially at a cognitive level unknown to all of life on this planet prior to humanity, at a time when scientific discovery is illuminating our universe at an exponetial rate, is pretty amazing.

One thing I find interesting is the concept of time as a physical dimension independant of our perception of it. While we see ourselves getting older in a linear fashion, time may simply be a structure of the universe regardless of our self-perception, and that we exist at all means we are in a sense a permanent part of that structure. I think of it like a vinyl record. The record itself is the time element of the universe, and our lives are the individual tracks on the album. We play the song, and experience it from beginning to end, but once it is over, it doesn't cease to be. We merely experience it as linear, but the grooves of its being are still notched into the physical structure of the album.


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 4, 2013)

Where's that one Christian guy?


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## InfinityCollision (Dec 5, 2013)

skeels said:


> ^This is an interesting concept. I also feel that it points out a subtle incongruency in our understanding of consciousness.
> 
> Sensory stimuli and perhaps even sense-memory could be digitized and recorded and even processed but the totality of the human psyche is far too complex for us to construct a mainframe that could house it, nor an operating system that could mirror its abstraction.
> 
> We contain far more than the sum total of our predictable, chemical, recordable brain functions and we have little knowledge of how we truly work.



Not to brutally murder the romanticism here or anything, but the idea that the human mind is the product of some process or set of processes that do not exist in any form anywhere else in the universe is somewhere between extremely unlikely and straight up not happening. If the fundamental building blocks can be replicated, eventually our minds can too. Not now, probably not this century, likely not for a long while past that, but eventually.

There's a post talking about the difficulty of conceptualizing eternity earlier in this thread; much the same can be said of future tech. Though I'd argue that the universe as a dynamic system potentially makes the concept of eternal life less bleak than was portrayed. At least until heat-death, assuming you haven't jumped universes or figured out how to reverse entropy within the next trillion trillion trillion years... you've got a while. A fair bit longer than that, even. A static, unchanging world is a different story.


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## flint757 (Dec 5, 2013)

zappatton2 said:


> I think of it like a vinyl record. The record itself is the time element of the universe, and our lives are the individual tracks on the album. We play the song, and experience it from beginning to end, but once it is over, it doesn't cease to be. We merely experience it as linear, but the grooves of its being are still notched into the physical structure of the album.



That's an awesome metaphor.


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## acrcmb (Dec 5, 2013)

I think there's no after life, there's no logical reason there would be all things die eventually that's just life, I believe people have a soul or spirit but I don't think it's something they literally floats away once you die, to me it's just the essence of a person like a culmination of all their traits and idiosyncracies, I think of it not as some ghostly thing that floats around but more like the impression you leave in people, I think it's really cheesey to say you live on through the people you leave behind but it's kind of true because they don't just remember what you did with them they have a image of you, l believe that's what your soul or whatever you want to call it is, it's the bit you leave behind in people that makes them able to picture how you'd react to certain situations,what you'd say if you were there all that type of stuff that's more than just remembering, so in that way I think your spirit lives on.


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## skeels (Dec 5, 2013)

InfinityCollision said:


> Not to brutally murder the romanticism here or anything, but the idea that the human mind is the product of some process or set of processes that do not exist in any form anywhere else in the universe is somewhere between extremely unlikely and straight up not happening. If the fundamental building blocks can be replicated, eventually our minds can too. Not now, probably not this century, likely not for a long while past that, but eventually.
> 
> There's a post talking about the difficulty of conceptualizing eternity earlier in this thread; much the same can be said of future tech. Though I'd argue that the universe as a dynamic system potentially makes the concept of eternal life less bleak than was portrayed. At least until heat-death, assuming you haven't jumped universes or figured out how to reverse entropy within the next trillion trillion trillion years... you've got a while. A fair bit longer than that, even. A static, unchanging world is a different story.



I never asserted that conscioussness was a trait which we held unique. 

That is the joy of infinity.

To one who defines the universe with finite terms, our existence becomes improbable. One who recognizes infinity can assert one of only two options: that our existence is mandated by the conditions of the universe or that it is impossible.

It is this paradox which leads us to greater conclusions.


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## Tommy Deaks (Dec 5, 2013)

This boggles my mind. I'm so scared of death it sometimes keeps me awake at night.

What I can't comprehend is how and why we are conscious. Why am I me? Why am I conscious in my body? Why am I not someone else? 

What Rook said about there being a billion billion billion billion to one chance of these molecules coming together and creating us as conscious, sentient beings strikes quite the chord with me. Think about the time before you were born - in comparison to your time on earth, it's an infinite amount of time. Go back to the beginning of the universe. By pure chance, all the matter which is in the universe was created. This then, over billions of years, has created us and the world we live in today. If the theories are correct, the universe will then fold back in on itself, and perhaps revert back to the state it was just before the big bang. 

I think that an infinite amount of these big bangs has happened before this one that has spawned us. And after this universe dies, another big bang will happen and create a new universe. Do I make any sense?

I think we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. I can't really put into words what I mean by this, but I understand it. 

Honestly, my mind boggles at this. 

In answer to the thread - I can't give a definitive thought. I don't know what will happen, and nor does anyone. I can't imagine death, just in the same way that I can't imagine what or where my consciousness was before I was brought into life here on earth. Personally, I hope you do go to heaven and shoot the shit with passed relatives and celebrities, but that's just a romantic ideal which I am sure isn't the case. 

God damn


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 5, 2013)

joshuavsoapkid said:


> Which always left me with this question, what causes the brain the to work, if it works when your alive, what happens to that spark or energy whatever you want call it when you die, is the brain what connects us to our bodies to become one with them i.e spirit/body dualism, like for example when someone is on life support everything else is working but they lose conscientiousness, sentience and "themselves", only being kept alive by electrical equipment.



*Yolo*


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## Cabinet (Dec 5, 2013)

In death, is death

bo bwoww bo bwooooow djun djun djun bo bwooow


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## InfinityCollision (Dec 5, 2013)

skeels said:


> I never asserted that conscioussness was a trait which we held unique.


Then you acknowledge that consciousness is replicable?

To be clear, I'm not talking about the possibility of life elsewhere in the universe. If consciousness if the product of quantum behavior, better understanding of quantum mechanics should eventually give rise to the ability to replicate our minds. If it's the product of some other process or processes, same deal. Only if the mechanics that give rise to the mind are unique to living beings is it likely to be unreproducible.



> To one who defines the universe with finite terms, our existence becomes improbable.


Our existence is improbable. I find that to be a beautiful thing.



> One who recognizes infinity can assert one of only two options: that our existence is mandated by the conditions of the universe or that it is impossible.


There is a third option subtly different from the first: acknowledging probability. An infinite universe with a finite chance at producing life will almost surely do so. Though the universe/multiverse may or may not be infinite...


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Dec 5, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> *Yolo*


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## skeels (Dec 5, 2013)

Haha and I thought that I was a master of ambiguity!

@infcoll- I believe that we are trying to differentiate between mere "mind" and "life essence"

Thoughts are quantifiable and recordable. Even sensory input to a certain extent. Choice and freewill are not so easily encapsulated by systems we are familiar with. 

Do androids dream of electric sheep?

Is there love not human? 

Questions that humankind has asked itself for countless weeks.

Do rocks have memory of when they were only dust?

Does the light that shines on our faces long for the heart of the sun from which it was born?


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## Edoris (Dec 5, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> Where's that one Christian guy?



Over here! 

Tomorrow I'm actually graduating with a degree of Theology so i'm not sure if i even need to outline my view on whether there's an afterlife or if i should just let people assume haha

Basically i believe there is an afterlife and those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved and those who don't won't.

Christians seem to get a lot of hate when it comes to these sorts of topics (most topics really haha) so feel free to disagree, just thought i'd bring another viewpoint to the thread.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Dec 5, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Over here!
> 
> Tomorrow I'm actually graduating with a degree of Theology so i'm not sure if i even need to outline my view on whether there's an afterlife or if i should just let people assume haha
> 
> ...


You just had to do it huh


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 5, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Over here!
> 
> Tomorrow I'm actually graduating with *a degree of Theology* so i'm not sure if i even need to outline my view on whether there's an afterlife or if i should just let people assume haha
> 
> ...










A tutor of mine in my first year of university once told us about how she met a scholar of religion who claimed to be Christian. Her response was, quite frankly, golden:

"I thought 'but how? How can you still be religious after studying not just one, but multiple religioius texts?'"



And I was actually talking about that Xiphos guy who looks like he could have been in Kansas.


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## Edoris (Dec 5, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


>



William Lane Craig doesn't even have a degree in theology lol but he does have 2 Ph.Ds which is at least as respectable as a Ph.D. in Mother Hen don't you think?! haha


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 6, 2013)

Edoris said:


> William Lane Craig doesn't even have a degree in theology lol but he does have 2 Ph.Ds which is at least as respectable as a Ph.D. in Mother Hen don't you think?! haha



You say that like he needs one. I actually didn't realise the picture was of him, but I stand by the sentiment  

He's actually also a philosopher, but he puts his faith before reason and philosophy, which makes him a disingenuous zealot


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## InfinityCollision (Dec 6, 2013)

skeels said:


> I believe that we are trying to differentiate between mere "mind" and "life essence"


For what it's worth I generally don't bother to differentiate between the two. Where does one end and the other begin?



> Thoughts are quantifiable and recordable. Even sensory input to a certain extent. Choice and freewill are not so easily encapsulated by *systems we are familiar with.*


Bolded the important part. There is a sufficiently large body of theory that we believe to be inaccurate or incomplete, even without considering the possibility of things we haven't even begun to dream of yet, that extrapolating based on the here and now is to sell oneself short in matters of both science and philosophy. Thus...



> Do androids dream of electric sheep?


The most appropriate answer might be "We don't have enough information to say whether they could or not yet." However, I believe a strong argument can be constructed in favor of androids eventually being able to dream.


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## Edoris (Dec 6, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> You say that like he needs one. I actually didn't realise the picture was of him, but I stand by the sentiment
> 
> He's actually also a philosopher, but he puts his faith before reason and philosophy, which makes him a disingenuous zealot



Haha i didn't post with the intention of starting a debate about william lane craig, was just sharing my view.


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## will_shred (Dec 6, 2013)

I was dead for billions of years before I was alive, and it didn't bother me one bit.


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## skeels (Dec 6, 2013)

skeels said:


> .
> 
> Do androids dream of electric heep?
> 
> ...



Two great books, Philip K. Dick and Gordon Dickson respectively. 



CrushingAnvil said:


> "I thought 'but how? How can you still be religious after studying not just one, but multiple religioius texts?'"
> .



Eh.. why not? 



Edoris said:


> William Lane Craig



Who?



InfinityCollision said:


> For what it's worth I generally don't bother to differentiate between the two. Where does one end and the other begin?
> .



Precisely.



will_shred said:


> I was dead for billions of years before I was alive, and it didn't bother me one bit.



Can you prove this?


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## will_shred (Dec 6, 2013)

> Can you prove this?


 
Nope, but I can't prove that you or anyone else, or anything else exists besides my conciousness either. 

So, from that perspective what would even be the point in answering your question?  You're just a figment of my imagination, get away from me!



Or on the other hand, the observable universe is estimated to be 14.5 billion years old, I was born 18 years ago. 14.5 billion>18. Or if you think of it other ways, I wasn't dead I just didn't exist yet. My atoms were probably scattered around the country in god knows where before I came into existance. And before all my atoms were the elements that they are, they were hydrogen inside of an ancient star. So, I did not exist for billions of years before I did exist, and it didn't really effect me at all.


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## skeels (Dec 6, 2013)

^ I meant can you prove that it doesn't bother you.


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## will_shred (Dec 6, 2013)

skeels said:


> ^ I meant can you prove that it doesn't bother you.



Unless i'm wrong and the Christians are right in which case I'm taking the fast lane to hell, that might bother me a bit.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Dec 6, 2013)

will_shred said:


> Unless i'm wrong and the Christians are right in which case I'm taking the fast lane to hell, that might bother me a bit.


I just hope I'm in Hell in time for dinner


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## TheDeathOfMusic (Dec 6, 2013)

the prospect of Hell doesn't bother me that much. it's probably just me but an eternity spent having gay sex in a lake of fire doesn't sound that bad


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## Watty (Dec 7, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Tomorrow I'm actually graduating with a degree of Theology so i'm not sure if i even need to outline my view on whether there's an afterlife or if i should just let people assume haha



Okay, not to be a complete ass, but what exactly are you going to do with that degree?! I see religious study as something you'd do in your spare time, not build a career (or lack thereof, in this case) around.



Edoris said:


> Basically i believe there is an afterlife and those who put their faith in Jesus Christ will be saved and those who don't won't.



I won't get into unpacking the myriad of ramifications associated with this sentiment, but you're essentially advocating a system where a good 60%-70% of people born onto this rock are predestined non-entry into said afterlife. If there were an afterlife, one would think that, being the same where it counts, all humans would "gain access" upon death, regardless of what beliefs they happened to hold (collections of chemicals/electromagnetic fields) in life.



Edoris said:


> Christians seem to get a lot of hate when it comes to these sorts of topics (most topics really haha) so feel free to disagree, just thought i'd bring another viewpoint to the thread.



Yes, you get a lot of hate. Why? See above.

-------------

To WLC - .... him and his crazy logic that rests solely on assumptions that he glosses over instead of bothering to "prove."

To hell - I'd hate it for the same reason I'd hate heaven. Eternity anywhere, in any state, would be worse than a good clean pass at non-existence.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Dec 7, 2013)

Watty said:


> Okay, not to be a complete ass, but what exactly are you going to do with that degree?! I see religious study as something you'd do in your spare time, not build a career (or lack thereof, in this case) around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


For once Watty I agree with you


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## InfinityCollision (Dec 7, 2013)

Dunno about the rest of you, but I'd prefer we keep religious discussion to a minimum in this thread if only so that it doesn't ruin a perfectly good topic.



skeels said:


> Two great books, Philip K. Dick and Gordon Dickson respectively.


I'm familiar with them 



> Precisely.


Are you actually going somewhere with this or just leading me on?


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 7, 2013)

Watty said:


> Okay, not to be a complete ass, but what exactly are you going to do with that degree?! I see religious study as something you'd do in your spare time, not build a career (or lack thereof, in this case) around.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A degree in theology isn't a degree in religious studies (where you actually study religious texts objectively and generally arrive at the conclusion that they're all full of shit if you have an ounce of common sense). So the only thing he's going to do is become a preacher and contribute to the stunting human progress by retarding people's natural inclination toward scientific and philosophical thinking. IN MY COUNTRY, AT THAT!

I just like how he stated his beliefs without even giving any reasons. I mean, I know this isn't called 'Thoughts about After Death or Afterlife, whichever...using the analytic philosophical method developed in the early 1920's', but it's obvious that he thinks stating your beliefs means they might be true. 

If there is a God, he doesn't give a shit about us. And it's probably a mistake for me to even assign it a gender, because it's probably a pure manifestation of logic (see: Wittgenstein's _Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus_). It certainly isn't an old dude who lives outside the universe (that in itself makes no sense).


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## Edoris (Dec 7, 2013)

Watty said:


> Okay, not to be a complete ass, but what exactly are you going to do with that degree?! I see religious study as something you'd do in your spare time, not build a career (or lack thereof, in this case) around.



Don't worry about it, if you're not interested in that kind of stuff i understand why you wouldn't know what one would do with a theology degree. Basically there are a number of things one can do but the main things people go into is working in churches like as a pastor for example. Another main thing is going in to the academic field (which i understand you and many others around here might find hilarious or idiotic or whatever which is fine, just explaining), delving in to Christian scriptures or theological discussions, stuff like that.



InfinityCollision said:


> Dunno about the rest of you, but I'd prefer we keep religious discussion to a minimum in this thread if only so that it doesn't ruin a perfectly good topic.



Sorry man, wasn't trying to derail your topic or anything, was just answering your question by sharing my view.
I'll see myself out haha


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 7, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Don't worry about it, if you're not interested in that kind of stuff i understand why you wouldn't know what one would do with a theology degree. Basically there are a number of things one can do but the main things people go into is working in churches like as a pastor for example. Another main thing is going in to the academic field (which i understand you and many others around here might find hilarious or idiotic or whatever which is fine, just explaining), delving in to Christian scriptures or theological discussions, stuff like that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like I said, a degree in theology is not academically analogous to a degree in religious studies. 

You don't have to see yourself out, just tell us why you believe the things you do about the afterlife. Having gone to church and being told that, and reading it in a bible isn't enough, I'm afraid.


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## CrushingAnvil (Dec 7, 2013)

I suggest, however, that we get back on topic since this shouldn't be a thread for debating the truth-value of Christianity or the value of a degree in theology.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Dec 7, 2013)

What do you guys think of near death survivors stories about the afterlife they vary VERY much.


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## Edoris (Dec 7, 2013)

CrushingAnvil said:


> I just like how he stated his beliefs without even giving any reasons.



Interesting you say that seeing as how you do the exact thing in your next paragraph:



CrushingAnvil said:


> If there is a God, he doesn't give a shit about us. And it's probably a mistake for me to even assign it a gender, because it's probably a pure manifestation of logic (see: Wittgenstein's _Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus_). It certainly isn't an old dude who lives outside the universe (that in itself makes no sense).



Not really seeing any reasons for those beliefs. I would be interested to hear how you came to those conclusions but maybe that would be too off topic. Maybe PM me or something, i understand if you don't want to though.



CrushingAnvil said:


> but it's obvious that he thinks stating your beliefs means they might be true.



Haha that's quite a leap you made there. I in no way stated or articulated that just because i state my belief that it is therefore true. I apologize if that's what you thought i was meaning and in no way intended that. I was purely stating my belief along with many other people have done in this thread.



CrushingAnvil said:


> I suggest, however, that we get back on topic since this shouldn't be a thread for debating the truth-value of Christianity or the value of a degree in theology.



I agree, if you want to discuss this particular stuff further with me then PM me and if not then no worries 

Sorry everyone, i won't respond or post anything more unless it's directly related to the thread in some way.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Dec 7, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Not really seeing any reasons for those beliefs. I would be interesting to hear how you came to those conclusions but maybe that would be too off topic. Maybe PM me or something, i understand if you don't want to though.


Really dude? You keep enticing others with these kinds of statements, how can you see the stuff that goes on in the world and say "Not really seeing any reasons for those beliefs" that's just the definition of ignorant.


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## The Reverend (Dec 7, 2013)

There's an afterlife. I can say that with 100% certainty. It is called death.

It is highly unlikely that there is an afterlife. 

It is semantically impossible. As far as we can tell, there is no soul. Most would attribute the soul as the "core" of a human, that essential thing that gives them their unique character. If that were the case, traumatic brain injuries would not sometimes lead to sudden and dramatic personality changes. The changes in who are person is or can be are well-documented in medical literature. Any descriptor of a soul that goes beyond the utterly vague ("a spark of divinity") can be reliably countered based on what little we know of the brain and it's mechanics.

Where would one draw the line for acceptance into an afterlife? Would our australopithecus ancestors be eligible? Thecodonts, which, if memory serves, all mammals evolved from? Infants, who for the record can be said to be less conscious than some animals? 

Reincarnation is an equally incredibly idea. Wouldn't account for the growth in population over the past 2,000 years. There are more people alive now than the entire sum of the human population up to 1950. The only way to make reincarnation plausible is to further push it into the bounds of vagueness. Similar to the evolution of gods, if you ask me.  

There is only one stance to take on the matter that doesn't depend on speculation.


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## Watty (Dec 7, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Don't worry about it, if you're not interested in that kind of stuff i understand why you wouldn't know what one would do with a theology degree. Basically there are a number of things one can do but the main things people go into is working in churches like as a pastor for example. Another main thing is going in to the academic field (which i understand you and many others around here might find hilarious or idiotic or whatever which is fine, just explaining), delving in to Christian scriptures or theological discussions, stuff like that.



My point was more to the stance that you can do those things without a degree in "it." Getting a degree in art doesn't mean anything if you can't really draw worth a damn, just as getting a degree in theology means nothing if you aren't passionate about it in a more tangible sense....and given that's not something that a piece of paper can "certify," you don't need a degree for it. Unless you're loaded with nothing better to do, I just don't see the point of having studied something like that at the college level when it won't matter to those jobs that you'd like to hold.

So, to answer the first part of your comment, I'm well aware of what you CAN do with a degree in theology, I just don't understand why you think it's a prerequisite, let alone a meaningful investment in your future from a financial standpoint.



joshuavsoapkid said:


> What do you guys think of near death survivors stories about the afterlife they vary VERY much.



When peddled on a scale larger than stories told with loved ones, I think they're all a bullshit attempt at attention. I mean, that neuroscientist who wrote a book probably made bank by not only detailing his account for those gullible enough to believe it but also became a high profile example of how science "can't corrupt" those who are truly dedicated to their faith, regardless of how much knowledge of the practical workings of [the brain] they happen to have. I think that the brain has the capacity to show "us" exactly what we want given the right set of circumstances, but that says absolutely nothing for whether or not it's the truth. To claim that you caught a glimpse of the afterlife is just about as significant as the crazy bum yelling in the streets about his alien abduction. As to why they vary? Well, I'm sure there are at least as many conceptions of the afterlife as there have been people to hold them, so it's no wonder that we can go from "rivers of milk and honey" to "I rode on the back of a butterfly" without missing a beat.


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## InfinityCollision (Dec 7, 2013)

Edoris said:


> Sorry man, wasn't trying to derail your topic or anything, was just answering your question by sharing my view.
> I'll see myself out haha



Not at all, I was mostly directing that comment towards Watty (And it's not my thread regardless, nor is it my place to police it tbh. I just like this thread and don't want to see it ruined by bickering.). Religious discussion is simply an inflammatory topic for many... especially on the internet, but also outside it.

Alternatively we could all be civil but again, it's the internet.


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## Edoris (Dec 7, 2013)

Watty said:


> My point was more to the stance that you can do those things without a degree in "it." Getting a degree in art doesn't mean anything if you can't really draw worth a damn, just as getting a degree in theology means nothing if you aren't passionate about it in a more tangible sense....and given that's not something that a piece of paper can "certify," you don't need a degree for it.



Ah fair enough man, i get what you mean. Well over here in New Zealand a lot of evangelical churches won't hire you as a pastor or anything like that unless you have a degree in theology or some kind of qualification along those lines so in that sense it definitely helps financially over here. Not sure how it works in other places round the world like in the states where Joel Osteen is viewed by like 10 million people each week and he has no training in theology or the original biblical languages or anything like that.



Watty said:


> Unless you're loaded with nothing better to do, I just don't see the point of having studied something like that at the college level when it won't matter to those jobs that you'd like to hold.
> 
> So, to answer the first part of your comment, I'm well aware of what you CAN do with a degree in theology, I just don't understand why you think it's a prerequisite, let alone a meaningful investment in your future from a financial standpoint.



Fair enough, i guess on a personal level if i do believe the bible and that Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life" then his teachings, life, death, resurrection and ascension have eternal consequences which i should understand and examine more. So to answer your question i personally didn't do it for financial reasons. Not trying to say that this means my view is correct but just explaining why i personally chose to do a degree in theology.



InfinityCollision said:


> Religious discussion is simply an inflammatory topic for many... especially on the internet, but also outside it.



True that! I wasn't expecting such a negative response to just sharing my beliefs, as i'd seen many others do it without any negative feedback, but that's fine.

To get back on topic though...



joshuavsoapkid said:


> What do you guys think of near death survivors stories about the afterlife they vary VERY much.



I'm not sure what to believe about those kinds of stories as they seem to differ so much from person to person it's hard to find few, if any, similarities. I did hear that a video on youtube which tells the story of a boy who apparently died, went to heaven, and then was resuscitated and was able to tell his parents about their parents personalities and life is gonna be made in to a movie. i tend to take them all with a grain of salt.


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