# Straight men giving up on women? Interesting read...



## Steinmetzify (Dec 4, 2014)

Decent in length, but worth the read. Talking about how guys are making an exodus from the traditional long-term GF/marriage route and why. In essence 'checking out of society altogether, giving up on women, sex and relationships and retreating into pornography, sexual fetishes, chemical addictions, video games and, in some cases, boorish lad culture, all of which insulate them from a hostile, debilitating social environment created, some argue, by the modern feminist movement. 

THIS was particularly entertaining to me, as I'm of this age and honestly can't say I haven't thought about it:

It is the boys who were being betrayed by the education system and by culture at large in such vast numbers between 1990 and 2010 who represent the first generation of what I call the sexodus, a large-scale exit from mainstream society by males who have decided they simply can't face, or be bothered with, forming healthy relationships and participating fully in their local communities, national democracies and other real-world social structures. 

I dig women and don't really have any trouble, emotionally or sexually. I'm not the awkward guy, I have a decent in-person sense of humor and women respond to it, to the eternal dismay of my wife, but she gets it too.  I like hanging out with women, talking to them, shopping even, but the above hit home.

Some more quotes:

The sexodus didn't arrive out of nowhere, and the same pressures that have forced so many millennials out of society exert pressure on their parent's generation, too. One professional researcher in his late thirties, about whom I have been conversing on this topic for some months, puts it spicily: "For the past, at least, 25 years, I've been told to do more and more to keep a woman. But nobody's told me what they're doing to keep me.

"I can tell you as a heterosexual married male in management, who didnt drop out of society, the message from the chicks is: 'It's not just preferable that you should .... off, but imperative. You must pay for everything and make everything work; but you yourself and your preferences and needs can .... off and die.'"

Jack Donovan, a writer based in Portland who has written several books on men and masculinity, each of which has become a cult hit, says the phenomenon is already endemic among the adult population. "I do see a lot of young men who would otherwise be dating and marrying giving up on women," he explains, "Or giving up on the idea of having a wife and family. This includes both the kind of men who would traditionally be a little awkward with women, and the kind of men who aren't awkward with women at all.

"They've done a cost-benefit analysis and *realized it is a bad deal*. They know that if they invest in a marriage and children, a woman can take all of that away from them on a whim. So they use apps like Tinder and OK Cupid to find women to have protected sex with and resign themselves to being 'players,' or when they get tired of that, 'boyfriends.'"

It's not endemic to America either....they've done studies in other countries....France for example, according to this article, has the utter stupidity of having married men being forced to pay for, educate and raise children that their wives have as a result of an adulterous affair.  :bang: ....ing WHAT?! Please, European brothers, tell me this isn't true?!

The article:
The Sexodus, Part 1: The Men Giving Up On Women And Checking Out Of Society

Thoughts? Anybody thought about just checking out and turning into a hermit, and why? It's a safe place here, you can talk about it.  

For me, I can see the attraction after being in relationships for the better part of almost 30 years. Sometimes it's rough to do this all the time; kid, fatherhood, being with the same woman all the time, having the same fights, etc...I think I'm a lucky guy in that my woman is a fantastic person with none of the bullshit of my previous relationships, but still. 

Part of me wants to slap the shit out of these guys and tell them to man up because they're being pussies, and part of me wants to know what bars they're going to so I can go get some video game tips. :idk:

I know we've got a good smattering of ages here....I've seen guys born in the 60s and guys that are barely 13. Let's hear it....you in, or are you out?


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## asher (Dec 4, 2014)

This sounds like straight up MRA bullshit, sorry.


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## Dusty Chalk (Dec 5, 2014)

Oh, not me, I wouldn't know nothing about that, myself, I'm a...uh...euh...a bachelor, myself.


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## Promit (Dec 5, 2014)

Published on Breitbart, that's how you know it's totally legit. Why would anyone question that publication's credibility, after all?


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 5, 2014)

Not questioning the publication; I don't know anything about it. Was just wondering what you guys thought about the idea of it.


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## TheHandOfStone (Dec 5, 2014)

It's weird. Checking out of the dating scene to live the life of a recluse is basically what I'm doing, but not for any of the reasons they listed. 

I don't feel "betrayed" by the school system; I've always done well in school, and so far the only level at which I've failed to be admitted consists of PhD programs. I don't feel wronged by feminism; I think that while the movement looks bad if you judge it by its worst members, its best adherents are generally excellent people.

I just...don't connect with people normally and find social situations unpleasant. I could probably attract _someone_ if I wanted to, but I'm not willing to put in the effort.

Maybe I should move to Japan!


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## larry (Dec 5, 2014)

I've been in five long-term relationships, including my current stint going on nine years, but i haven't gotten married simply because of how easy it seems to get divorced and i definitely see the punitive bias implicated towards males. imo, getting married should force partners to really consider things thoroughly beforehand. consequences should be equally grave. i'll just say that, perhaps the legal side of it could evolve to suit current social and economic climates. it's just too easy to abuse in it's current state.

never having to be alone sounds awesome, it really does.


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## Curt (Dec 5, 2014)

That all sounds like something one of the /r/TheRedPill guys would post.


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## Alex Kenivel (Dec 5, 2014)

I can see it. I've kind of lived it more or less. After my 1st wife and I split up I wasn't trying to love anything except drugs and graffiti. I didn't even care about music anymore and lived in my car. It took a while to get over feeling like I belonged in such a bad place. I've had a tough time in school and social situations in the past and grew up right in the middle of that time frame.

But now I'm married. Go figure. I still suck at being social..


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 5, 2014)

Interesting viewpoints from all. I can see where they're coming from with this. What married guy doesn't wanna take a weekend and play video games jacked on booze and coke once in a while? Just think deciding to do it as a lifestyle is lacking something...like deciding it's ok to fail and just isolating yourself from anything meaningful would do nothing but hurt you in the long run...how would you maintain it? I'd think it'd come from some form of depression at first, and the isolation would just make it worse??

Funnily enough, most of my social interaction comes in the form of forums...I don't have conversations like this with family or friends for the most part, although my wife and I do go out and club and see shows, hit restaurants and bars and whatnot with friends occasionally. Don't like it that much but I do it. 

Just makes me wonder if this is kind of an inevitable thing, given the way people are now with social media. I watch my 15 yr old daughter and her friends sit in a room and text each other...and it's weird. They don't talk to each other, they just sit there and text and send each other funny pictures, and then everybody gets up and leaves. Wigs me out.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 5, 2014)

Due to various poor decisions I've made, I don't really think I have anything to offer a woman, and that's not likely to change before I'm too old to be thinking about starting a family. I'm trying to train myself to be okay with the idea that I'm never going to be anything but single, because... erm... "You made your bed, now you can lie in it," more or less.


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## The Reverend (Dec 5, 2014)

I think we're in a transitional period. There's a lot less face-to-face interaction, and people my age don't even see what's wrong with it. I realized the other day that I've never really gone on a "date" in the traditional sense. I've never talked to a girl I didn't know, met someplace, and got to to know her in the midst of some kind of activity. My experience has mainly been of getting numbers, texting, getting to know the girl, then f--king or hanging out, whichever comes first. 

Add the ubiquity of social media to both meet people, get to know them, and share certain levels of intimacy, and everything is changing. We move a lot quicker than we used to. We also have a lot of barriers that we can use to remove risk. Texting means being able to take your time when you're conversating, something you can't do and still be as slick or witty as possible in face to face interactions. Facebook et al mean that I can know everything you want people to know in the space of an hour. Not to mention the somewhat deeper, less discussed issue of matching up with the public personas we use. 

I can see why these guys are doing it. I just touched on one aspect of it, and some of you have brought up even better points, like the punitive nature of divorce. I think the basic issue boils down to feminism never having had to create a new way of doing things before the internet arrived. It's as if the cultural norms around women have shifted in ways that nobody is really familiar with, so guys get lost. It's not like you can talk to your dad and say, "Hey, what does it mean when I can see that she read my text, but she's not replying?"


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## Demiurge (Dec 5, 2014)

There are certainly always going to be people who don't want to go the marriage route and that's perfectly fine. 

This "phenomenon", however, seems to arise out of that MRA/arrested male development milieu, where women are regarded as some inscrutable, alien "other". And yet there is somehow an air of self-congratulation for one rationalizing-away their ability to relate to 50% of the population. The only upside is the built-in natural selection- if one can't treat women like people, that's all the less of a chance of propagating and passing on that disposition.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 5, 2014)

I'll try to read this later and post my views on marriage and junk, but for now all I have to say:
Good, send 'em my way.  I may have been more or less single for the past 2 years but I sure as shit ain't giving up anytime soon.


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## Unjustly-Labeled (Dec 5, 2014)

This phenomenon is very similar to what happens in the "Mouse Utopia Experiment".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z760XNy4VM
The men the article talks about exhibit behaviors similar to the mice dubbed "The Beautiful Ones" who just sit on the sidelines and refuse social interaction, sexual reproduction, and territorial acquisition. This trend is worrying considering that what follows shortly afterwards in that experiment is a complete societal death.

I dunno how much relation one can draw between these phenomena, but I found the comparison interesting...


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 5, 2014)

Considering real feminism means everyone should feel comfortable letting the woman pay the tab, and that legally judges shouldn't just default to supporting the woman, this all feels a little made up to me. Women aren't becoming more "cater to me" selfish shits. We're becoming more independent and empowered to say "no thanks, I don't like you."

Any reclusion into a lonely not-even-trying lifestyle is just people not being able to cope with change. Effort becomes involved, and people just don't want to give it. Let's not forget that we're in a time where everyone is becoming more sex positive, so the need/desire for long term "marriage worthy" relationships may be put on hold until after they get all the ....ing out of their systems. It is generally a huge mistake to get married while you're young.

Anyway, that article/whatever just seems to want to paint women as evil soul sucking monsters, which is just not true. If the women you're talking to are vile beings, find other women. If EVERY non subservient women is vile to you, then you're likely the problem, so do the world a favor and go ahead and spank it in your man cave with Cheetos stains and Halo in the background. (Obviously not directed at anyone here, unless the shoe fits.)


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## TheStig1214 (Dec 5, 2014)

I have actually long since resigned to the "forever single lifestyle". Granted I'm (nearly) 20, still in school and haven't started my actual career yet, but I decided about a year ago that I never want a wife or a family, and have a quite a few reasons why that I think are legitimate.

What I hope to do for my life career is corporate flying. I'm in flight school now, going for my commercial certificate. In the end what I want to do is fly a jet for a company or fly a jet for an on demand charter company. The unfortunate truth of this sort of career is getting ahead means being available at all hours of the day and being able to go anywhere at anytime. There is no way to hold down a serious relationship that way, and even if I did manage to get a serious girlfriend and get married doing this, I would never be around enough to start a family or be there for a kid if I had one, which is (in my opinion) the worst thing you can do to a kid. Never be there.

My second reason is I've tried the whole serious relationship thing. Twice. I got cheated on. Three times. If you're asking how that doesn't add up, one cheated on me with two different guys. Now, I realize this is the same sort of mindset as the guy who goes to Chipotle twice, gets food poisoning both times and never eats there again. Chances are he won't get sick a third time, but that isn't the point. A bad taste has forever been left in my mouth. I know if I date again I probably won't be cheated on again, but I'd just really rather not try to begin with. 

Also, when I am single I am always amazed by how much more disposable income I have  I like having money, arrest me. Less girlfriends=more guitars. I think a lot of us can get behind that logic.


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## canuck brian (Dec 5, 2014)

"I can tell you as a heterosexual married male in management, who didn&#8217;t drop out of society, the message from the chicks is: 'It's not just preferable that you should .... off, but imperative. You must pay for everything and make everything work; but you yourself and your preferences and needs can .... off and die.'"

The second someone uses the term "chicks" in an essay in an attempt to "academically" talk about the entire bro culture/tinder etc, it loses any weight. This guy, even though he's married, sounds like a complete douchebag who's pissed off that single women won't quietly hook up with a married man. 

The part where "a woman can take that all way on a whim" is laughable. Dont' move in with a woman, or any partner for that matter, without signing a legally binding agreement of asset distribution upon termination of a relationship and the legal procedure in a situation where child is born to your partner that isn't of your doing. 

Men who want to continue the hook-up culture, sit around baked all day playing video games are pissed off that they actually have to grow up and they're just pissed that life has changed around them. They're not in high school anymore.

The *only* guys I ever hear complaining "I can't get a girlfriend" or anything to that effect, are usually guys that view women primarily as a hole to stick their dicks and a friend/partner secondary. This becomes blatantly apparent to the women once they are around said guy for more than a few days. 

If it's not being an overbearing douche, they're usually overweight and care very little about their personal looks and presentation to the opposite sex. It's hilarious. Why would any woman be interested in a dumpy, unkempt douchebag who sits in a dirty apartment smoking weed and crushing Call of Duty for 8 hours straight? 

I really love the line "what is a woman doing to keep me?" Why the hell would you stay with someone if they're not attempting to keep you in a relationship? Sex? Grow a pair of balls, stand up for yourself and talk to your partner about your needs in a relationship and do the exact same thing to find out what her needs are. If this doesn't work, WALK. The whole notion of instant gratification now is really screwing things up. Relationships aren't easy and they take genuine work to maintain.

If you go into a relationship having plotted out everything in Excel to determine the financial burden of having a girlfriend and a child, you're missing the entire point. Don't boil a relationship with someone down to dollar figure. It's petty and stupid and will eventually cause whatever relationship you're in to grenade.

There are guys out there who genuinely just don't want to have a girlfriend/wife and not raise kids. That's totally Ok.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 5, 2014)

TheStig1214 said:


> I have actually long since resigned to the "forever single lifestyle". Granted I'm (nearly) 20, still in school and haven't started my actual career yet, but I decided about a year ago that I never want a wife or a family, and have a quite a few reasons why that I think are legitimate.
> 
> What I hope to do for my life career is corporate flying. I'm in flight school now, going for my commercial certificate. In the end what I want to do is fly a jet for a company or fly a jet for an on demand charter company. The unfortunate truth of this sort of career is getting ahead means being available at all hours of the day and being able to go anywhere at anytime. There is no way to hold down a serious relationship that way, and even if I did manage to get a serious girlfriend and get married doing this, I would never be around enough to start a family or be there for a kid if I had one, which is (in my opinion) the worst thing you can do to a kid. Never be there.
> 
> ...



Because of my significant other, and our combined income/shared interests, pretty much all of our disposable income goes towards music. The career choice though is a respectable reason for not wanting to/not being able to settle down with someone though.


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## TheStig1214 (Dec 5, 2014)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Because of my significant other, and our combined income/shared interests, pretty much all of our disposable income goes towards music. The career choice though is a respectable reason for not wanting to/not being able to settle down with someone though.



You're a lucky one then  . All of my best friends play guitar and their GFS think it's stupid how much money we all spend on gear.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 5, 2014)

Brian said everything much better than I could have. Troof right there.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 5, 2014)

TheStig1214 said:


> You're a lucky one then  . All of my best friends play guitar and their GFS think it's stupid how much money we all spend on gear.



She's a drummer so she knows what it's like to crave new and expensive things. Music is one of the things that is becoming less and less gender specific, which I think is great. Lots of really cool female musicians out there.


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## VSK Guitars (Dec 5, 2014)

I've been in a few long term relationships (> 2 years) was married for 8 years once and I have a son who lives with me full time. 
At this point in my life I just want to do the things that I want to do without hearing someone else tell me why I shouldn't be living life the way I want to.
I'm far from perfect, but I'm very easy to get along with and have no problems with the opposite sex. 
To be completely honest I'm just a happier person when I'm single. I've spent most of my life trying to make someone else happy at my own expense... Now it's my turn.
I may not agree with it all, but I can sure understand the premise of the article. Right now I have no desire whatsoever to live with another female...


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## Mordacain (Dec 5, 2014)

What's interesting to me is the idea in itself. I didn't intentionally seek to do this in my twenties but it just kind of occurred as a result of my standard social phobias.

It's seems vaguely similar to the hikikomori concept in Japan, but with a larger bias to the adolescent male fantasy.

So, here's my take: it's total bullshit by and large; boys trying desperately to rationalize not growing up and accept any real adult responsibility. Please note that I do not include people with social phobias / introverts that have always withdrawn from society and generally live rather solitary lives. The men's rights arguments are all horseshit and here's why:

Society was built by men for men. Men, of all races and creeds have structured society to favor their atavistic "needs" (which are actually desires and not true needs in a survival sense). Men have created their own, unrivaled privilege that has lasted millennia. Women are finally making inroads to include themselves equally in the traditionally male, patriarchal society. What men are seeing as a "loss of rights" are really women attempting to level the playing field by stripping away an injustice that they suffer. Cat-calling for instance; not a male right, but a douche-bag thing that some men do because of a (perhaps subconscious) sense of superiority and privilege. 

While I'd like to tell these jokers to grow the .... up. I'd actually prefer they not procreate; there is no surer way for society to move forward than to allow people with unproductive ideas to simply breed themselves out of existence.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 5, 2014)

There is so much facepalm in this article, I don't even know where to begin, and there's no point in addressing all or even most of it.

I feel bad for these men who feel that they can't relate to other human beings or mentally move beyond the teenage awkwardness that was so difficult for so many of us. 

The ability to face and survive rejection or the risk thereof, whether it be romantic, career-oriented, or otherwise, is essential in life. The transfer of blame for this inability or failure to face rejection to external targets like "radical feminists" or "sexual harassment laws" is unfortunate, and I wonder how much of it is due to the sorts of echo chambers like these we see online?

However, pity and empathy only go so far. There's some seriously toxic shit in there, and parts of that article really turned my stomach.


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## Xaios (Dec 5, 2014)

Djod is all I need.


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## piggins411 (Dec 5, 2014)

I think everything that I needed to say has already been said. As BlackMastodon said, let them leave society; I have no problem picking up the slack


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## TedEH (Dec 5, 2014)

canuck brian said:


> I really love the line "what is a woman doing to keep me?" Why the hell would you stay with someone if they're not attempting to keep you in a relationship? Sex? Grow a pair of balls, stand up for yourself and talk to your partner about your needs in a relationship and do the exact same thing to find out what her needs are. If this doesn't work, WALK. The whole notion of instant gratification now is really screwing things up. Relationships aren't easy and they take genuine work to maintain.







> There are guys out there who genuinely just don't want to have a girlfriend/wife and not raise kids. That's totally Ok.



I think a lot of people have deep seated opinions of how a relationship is "supposed to" happen, and get disheartened when they discover that's not how the world works. There's a lot of value in understanding that everyone expects something different out of the people they include in their lives.

I was in a going-on-five year relationship, we lived together, had a dog, good jobs, etc. where she left me because I didn't want to do the whole marriage-and-kids thing. All I wanted was a partner and best-friend, without involving anyone else, but it wasn't good enough. And on top of that, she basically moved out and took almost everything in the apartment in one weekend. One day I had what people would call a normal successful life, the next, I left and come home to an empty apartment. The literally took anything that wasn't explicitly mine or nailed down, in a span of about four hours while I was away.

I'm only sharing that to demonstrate that I easily qualify as someone who could be disheartened enough to take extreme measures- but instead I choose to learn from the experience. I understand a lot more about what I want or expect from a relationship, and the value of making sure those things are clearly communicated to a person you plan on spending a good chunk of your life with.

And there can never be enough said about how your partner needs to be your friend above and before anything else- and that's more than enough reason not to just latch on to whoever will give you time out of their day.

I think this whole conversation is one of those part of life where you get out of it what you put in to it. Jump into relationships just to get laid? You'll get f....d right back. Treat people with the same respect and dignity you expect back, and put genuine effort into maintaining your relationships? It'll be it's own reward.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 5, 2014)

TedEH said:


> I think this whole conversation is one of those part of life where you get out of it what you put in to it. Jump into relationships just to get laid? You'll get f....d right back. Treat people with the same respect and dignity you expect back, and put genuine effort into maintaining your relationships? It'll be it's own reward.



This. This 100%. In relationships, in your career, in everything. Make real connections, and don't just try to use people for your benefit (sexually or otherwise).


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## TedEH (Dec 5, 2014)

TemjinStrife said:


> don't just try to use people for your benefit



I unfortunately learned that sometimes the "standard" way a relationship works still can still leave you being a means to an end. Sometimes people just want to be married and have kids, and it doesn't matter with whom. To some, the definition of a successful relationship is marriage, even if you don't care about the person you're married to. It's the same (and the opposite at the same time?) as when someone assumes they're a failure if they're single. It's entirely legitimate to recognize that nobody who's part of your life is appropriate in that role, even if you're lonely.

I think a lot of people have trouble recognizing when their own actions are purely for their own benefit, especially when they're doing something they think they're supposed to be doing. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it's entirely appropriate to act selfishly, especially if you recognize and knowledge that you're doing so, but it's a harder distinction to make when you're talking about long term interactions with other people.


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## Force (Dec 5, 2014)

Since my divorce ( & obligatory 'start from scratch' due to an anti-men system), I'm done with women for the foreseeable future. My focus is on my kids, until they grow up, I have nowhere in my life for a relationship.

I had to give up everything for the 'family life'. I wouldn't have minded if it had been a 2 way street but it's just as the OP says, men do what they're told & to hell with their feelings, needs etc, otherwise they're laballed as selfish abusive c**nts.

I have a few flirtatious women at work & respond in kind but that's where it ends, besides, I don't get involved with people I work with, it could get messy.


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## TedEH (Dec 5, 2014)

Force said:


> just as the OP says, men do what they're told & to hell with their feelings, needs etc



Women in failing relationships likely feel like the opposite is true: that women are just there for mens sake, have to do what they're told, their feelings don't matter, etc. Everyone in a bad situation is probably going to feel like they're the victim and someone else is the aggressor or instigator.

If your situation is one where your contributions were marginalized or unappreciated, then consider it a positive that it's over with- make it an experience to learn from- but don't assume that every relationship going forward will work that way.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 5, 2014)

Gotta love how it takes two people to make a relationship, yet it's always the other person's fault that things went to shit. But hey, if these guys wanna give up on women, I'm down to keep those women from being lonely.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 5, 2014)

Force said:


> I had to give up everything for the 'family life'. I wouldn't have minded if it had been a 2 way street but it's just as the OP says, men do what they're told & to hell with their feelings, needs etc, otherwise they're laballed as selfish abusive c**nts.



This is a big part of it, I think....as someone said above, if your contributions are marginalized, what's the point? 

I was in a long-term relationship right after I got sober...I was young and dumb, and didn't really know what was expected in a sober relationship, as I'd been abusing drugs and alcohol since around age 15 or so. It eventually ended up feeling like all I heard was "if you do this, I'll love you more. If you don't, I'll love you less." 

I'm paraphrasing, of course; but most of it was stopping what I needed and doing more of what she needed, regardless of what it was, while she did nothing at all regarding what I needed out of a relationship. Didn't want to hang out with my friends, read similar books, watch movies together, had different views on money, etc...honestly, not to bitch and sound like a whiny asshole, but it just didn't seem to me to be what a relationship was supposed to be about. I was also broke 95% of the time, even though we owned our house/vehicles outright...I worked for good money but got mega shit for buying anything, while she spent her $ AND mine mercilessly.

it got old after awhile and we ended up drifting apart...we're still casual friends/keep in contact and caught up on each other's lives....it was a very intense relationship, intellectually and sexually and it was the first like that for either of us to that degree. Didn't stop me from leaving though. 

I don't think it should be a one way street though....if you're both not learning from each other, there's no point. I don't want to be in a relationship with no say in anything except existing as a paycheck...if you're lucky, you'll end up/choose to be in a relationship with a woman that's smarter than you are in areas where you're lacking....empathy, emotional availability, etc...and learn how to be a better person. 

If your life is a series of women with no sense of loyalty or ambition, I could see dropping out for awhile.

Was more the idea of doing it at a limited time thing, for a well adjusted guy who's sick of the dating race/type of women he's been dealing with than anything ...I don't think that I could completely 'hermitize' myself to the point of no contact with anyone at all, and I know for a fact that I'd miss women as friends if nothing else. No MRA here...I like women and don't blame them for any of the things that are wrong in my life, but this is an interesting idea. 

Someone mentioned the mouse experiment back a page or so, and that correlates with this and was awesomely interesting to read....what happens when these guys/this generation completely withdraw from women/communities/society as a whole? Could the world handle it? Could women? It's interesting to me as a topic of conversation that guys are forever being asked to change to suit women...when they decide they don't want to change and in point of fact divorce themselves from the very idea of having any women with any say in their lives at all, who suffers more, the men or women?

This whole thing sparked an interesting conversation with my wife last night....she'd read it elsewhere and thought there were good points to it, but couldn't really understand why a guy would completely close himself off permanently to love or a healthy relationship, and neither did I.

To each his own, I guess...I think we all have moments as guys where we think "If I have to talk about my ....in feelings one more ....in time I'm gonna shoot myself in the head" or whatever....but to become so annoyed by it, or the trappings of a relationship that you check out of the whole human race entirely? I've been annoyed before, but that's just an incredibly whole new level....


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## Mordacain (Dec 5, 2014)

tacotiklah said:


> Gotta love how it takes two people to make a relationship, yet it's always the other person's fault that things went to shit. But hey, if these guys wanna give up on women, I'm down to keep those women from being lonely.



I'd thought about including this very sentiment with my prior remarks.

Little nugget of personal insight: I'm currently going through a divorce myself so I'm having to consider how and to what extent do I want to put myself back out there. I can totally understand the desire to not get hurt, but you need to hurt every now and again to have a basis for comparison (and it's really unavoidable, no matter how you try to insulate yourself). I'm lucky in the sense that my wife and I don't hate each others guts and are trying to hold onto our friendship (which was the strongest part of our relationship), but no matter how amicable, there is no getting around the loss of a partner.

It could be very easy to blame her but I choose not to because I know it is: a) not constructive and b) not true. We all have culpability when we partner with someone and you can only ever expect to get what you put in. My buddy went through a pretty toxic divorce last year and while I was there to console him, I had to reality check his ass quite a few times when he would act like he did no wrong.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 5, 2014)

tacotiklah said:


> Gotta love how it takes two people to make a relationship, yet it's always the other person's fault that things went to shit. But hey, if these guys wanna give up on women, I'm down to keep those women from being lonely.



According to this article you might be pretty busy soon, lady. Get ready!


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 5, 2014)

Mordacain said:


> I'd thought about including this very sentiment with my prior remarks.
> 
> Little nugget of personal insight: I'm currently going through a divorce myself so I'm having to consider how and to what extent do I want to put myself back out there. I can totally understand the desire to not get hurt, but you need to hurt every now and again to have a basis for comparison (and it's really unavoidable, no matter how you try to insulate yourself). I'm lucky in the sense that my wife and I don't hate each others guts and are trying to hold onto our friendship (which was the strongest part of our relationship), but no matter how amicable, there is no getting around the loss of a partner.
> 
> It could be very easy to blame her but I choose not to because I know it is: a) not constructive and b) not true. We all have culpability when we partner with someone and you can only ever expect to get what you put in. My buddy went through a pretty toxic divorce last year and while I was there to console him, I had to reality check his ass quite a few times when he would act like he did no wrong.


 
Mojo on divorce, dude, been there....also on being an adult and realizing it takes two to break it. It's always that much harder when you blame someone else entirely and you can't grow that way.


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## axxessdenied (Dec 5, 2014)

I don't think people have a good sense of where they really are heading in life until you get to around your 30s in our current society. We weren't forced to grow up quickly and move out of the house to survive like a lot of our parents had to.

You just have to find the right person. If you keep meeting hte same kind of people... maybe it's the places you are meeting them that attract these types?


I think a lot of guys would be surprised at their success at getting dates if they went a more traditional route and just approached women they found attractive and asked them out without any kind of bullshit pickup lines. Being up front with your intentions can go a long way.

Plus, women look more at the whole package then just the looks. Women like a guy that can take charge and make decisions and isn't afraid of going for what they want.


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## Mordacain (Dec 5, 2014)

steinmetzify said:


> Mojo on divorce, dude, been there....also on being an adult and realizing it takes two to break it. It's always that much harder when you blame someone else entirely and you can't grow that way.



Thanks 

Yea, I think a lot of people just aren't honest with themselves when they go through a break-up / divorce. It might seem easier to obscure the truth but in the long run, I feel it's detrimental to personal growth.


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## Dayviewer (Dec 5, 2014)

Some of the article is believable, some is just straight up weird.
But I do like to mention that I'm in some kind of the same situation.

I'm 23, and have been working 40 hours a week for over a year now, moved away from friends and family for the job, and here I am 
When I get home from work I'm mostly tired or I have the house/dinner etc to take care of. 
Afterwards most people I would hang out with are by then 'out of reach' (would take too much time going there and back again on a reasonable time for work the next day) and I see my colleagues more than enough throughout the week.

In the weekend I mostly have one day of cleaning/doing stuff for myself and one day catching up with friends.
This all results in little social interaction with 'new' people and I've never really been 'that' outgoing in the first place 

So I barely meet new girls and I also happen to have very little experience in relationships (read: basically none ) so that all makes it harder when I actually do meet one that I'm interested in.
This year I've been trying to get into all the Tinder and online dating stuff but I never got anything out of it (only one actual date which didn't turn out to be good)
So I gave up on that too, and I'm basically struggling with the idea if a relationship is anything for me at all, which sucks because there are really times where I'm just lonely. 

I've even been telling myself that if I don't have a steady long term thing going by 30, that I should just adopt a kid and try to manage it all by myself 

Honestly I don't know if I'm going to manage to get a relationship going now or ever.
And it's very different from the reasons stated in the article, but I can really find myself in the whole thing of how I should even represent myself or what I should expect from situations.
But maybe that's just inexperience. And then again how am I still going to get that? That's how I get to the conclusion that I'm probably just screwed to live on my own (and with my adopted kid when I reach 30 )

Before reaching 'basement guy' conclusions, here's a pic of me and my appartment:
me
crib

And yes you can tell me to grow a pair and go out more, or whatever, I don't know, maybe just do so, I could use it I guess?
This thread did made me 'talk' about this so I guess I'm thankfull for that.

Cheers SSO


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## ZeroTolerance94 (Dec 5, 2014)

I've been a very socially awkward person for a long time... Since my last girlfriend when I was 16. When I was 16 and we broke up, I basically gave up on talking to girls... totally. 

When I was like 18, and since then, i've been wanting a relationship so bad, I could never get a girlfriend though... I'm 20 now, and about 2 months ago I met a girl I thought was cute, and then learned she _possibly_ could've liked me...

It was then that I realized... what in the .... was I thinking? I hadn't shaved in a year, I sparingly brushed my teeth, the inside of my truck was a disaster, the bed of my truck with empty McDonalds bags and beer cans... I was 50lbs overweight... Who the .... would _ever_ be attracted to that?!

So when I found out the "possibly" turned into "lets just be friends"... I *REALLY* made it a goal to clean the .... up. Just for sheer luck that maybe "lets just be friends" might turn into "possibly" again. 

TL;DR, any dude complaining about not being able to get a girlfriend... See if there's reasons to blame yourself for why... 

Maybe I misinterpreted the article for what it was saying, but I found that to be relevant.


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## Overtone (Dec 5, 2014)

I didn't read the article, but there are some sentences in the OP and subsequent posts by OP that describe my recent experiences pretty well (in terms of becoming a hermit temporarily). But the bottom line is that I view it as a phase I'm going through and an experience that is teaching me how to actually prepare for a family, and perhaps a little bit more about boundaries that modern women have. My guess is that many women are themselves going through some kind of a phase right now and hopefully learning something too. Anyway, I don't really believe many people in this boat are literally giving up for good.

It's a long story as to how my experience matches up, but the gist of it is there have been a lot of moments in that period of time where I have been treated like I'm the "bad guy." Initially I thought it might be true and it kicked off a lot of self loathing and doubt, where I retreated from things because I felt like I actually was a bad person. I took it really seriously because I had moved cities to get a place together with my LDR girlfriend and was out on my ass before I knew it. I moved cities 3 times in 2013! So all that really messed with my head for a while. Then I snapped out of it as I know I'm not a bad person, and I realized that women seem especially sensitive as of late and didn't feel like I was going to go out on a limb for anyone when it probably wouldn't be appreciated and I'd be accused of having intentions that have never been a part of who I am. 

Throughout this I've had gorgeous tinder matches I never messaged, first dates with cute girls I never followed up, and casual sex offers I turned down, all because I felt like it wasn't worth it. That part seems fine to me... it's good to draw a line and actually set standards for yourself as to what is worth your time, and when you are willing to fully invest yourself. As for the part where I retreated into isolated activities, I think I needed it to refresh, but eventually it got old and I could also see that I wasn't building up any kind of long term benefit to my life. I also saw that I was lonely and that I was happier when visiting family. So I've used the time to deal with personality issues and do some introspecting, and also to just be free from the pressure of trying to find myself a partner. At the same time, I understood that I wouldn't be as happy in life if I didn't eventually find somebody. I've learned that it needs to be somebody fairly patient and understanding, and that it's also up to me to be conscious of my behavior. I'm still in a mindset where it takes a lot more to get my attention and I'm not really hurling myself into any situations, but the way I see it is that I've raised the bar for myself and as such it's gonna take time to meet the right person.


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## Church2224 (Dec 5, 2014)

I have contemplated giving up on women numerous times, but that is because it is too much of an emotional burden to bare for me. 

Yet for some reason I still keep trying!


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## Overtone (Dec 5, 2014)

Another important thing I understood is there comes a point in time where as a man you have to stop expecting glory to come from sacrifice. Dads and husbands seem to have to put in a lot of work but the moments where they get a pat on the back for it are few and far between. There are a lot of thankless tasks. There are also a lot of mutual sacrifices, and as such your partner might not bat an eye because you did XYZ just for her, because even though you might not realize it she also did something for you that you never truly appreciated. I think at that point you have to just be ready to do what it takes without getting any recognition for it, which can be intimidating and feel like shit. But just thinking about what life with kids would be like, that's the way it's gotta be! That doesn't mean that in a good relationship it shouldn't be a partnership of mutual sacrifice and appreciation, just that it doesn't mean you are "hated" if your good deeds go unnoticed and the slightest problems are met with disapproval.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 5, 2014)

I *am* a hermit. It wasnt a conscious decision as a direct result of my interactions w women, but said interactions have done little to change my current preference to keep to myself.

In general I just don't deal with very many ppl. I'm more comfortable in small groups. Like 6 or more ppl and I'm starting to feel uncomfy. 

So I think that my interactions w women are more influenced by my personal preferences toward ppl in general than the other way around. I think most ppl suck and some ppl just happen to be women.


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## Overtone (Dec 5, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I think most ppl suck and some ppl just happen to be women.


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## Church2224 (Dec 5, 2014)

Has any one ever thought about that the main issue people have when dating is being compatible with some one ? Compatibility is EXTREMELY important. 

When I was with my ex, all we did was fight because of other people's drama and she constantly accused me of cheating and trying to meet other women, which I was not. We broke up, tried getting back together, but when I asked her what she wanted, she said she had no idea. She said she did not want a relationship, so all we did was have sex and I got bored really quick. Also she was very introverted and shy, and I had no idea how to talk to her. I also had to watch what I said because she would yell at me and lay into me if I said something "Wrong." She soon realized that and ended it, because I wanted something more. She also said she was not ready for a relationship...

Soon she was having sex with my friend immediately after that, and they became a couple. Despite telling me she was not ready for a relationship she told me that I "never had time for her" and she deserves to be happy. I sat down and realized that yeah, I was not perfect in the relationship, but at the same time I do not deserve to be lied to nor treated like that. She said I had little time for her, when I saw her at least twice a week on top of going to school and working, while she only worked part time and had dropped out of school. 

So I thought about it and I sat down and realized I was simply dating women I was not compatible with. So strangley enough, I hired a matchmaker to find some one I am compatible with. 

Next thing I know, I have a beautiful 28 year old Latina in my arms. Strange thing is she is use to dating guys older than her, while I am 23, yet we are both very happy together. We have a lot in common, we are both ambitious people, want children, and have a high sense of morality and taking care of our families. We can talk for hours about whatever and be happy. The only issues we have are out of my control, and if it does end, I know it is neither of our faults nor would I hold it against her. 

I have seen the Pickup Artist Stuff, all of the online dating advice, ect. Truth is, you are not going to get some one you are not compatible with. Just focus on some one that makes you happy and it will happen.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 5, 2014)

The article is obviously a bit biased and I feel like these feelings seem to be coming along with the fact that online dating is a big thing now. Those who already felt rejected before are now being rejected on an even larger scale because they can browse catalogs of women daily and the vast majority probably don't even so much as glance back in dude's direction.

"I've exhausted all options... Time to give up..."

I've definitely felt that way before but also stepped back and realized that my interactions with people on the internet isn't exactly representative of my interactions with most ppl in general and that when I actually do dare to come of out my comfy little shell in public and talk to seemingly ANYONE in real life, I don't get any of the vibes that seem to be suggested by those who apparently feel the need to give up on women and/or withdraw from society. While I "get it," I still think it comes across a bit neck-beardy and whiney.

That said, I've said since I was a very young boy that I had no desire to be married. My parents' marriage was a poor example of what one should be for one, but even as I've gotten older and thought about what marriage means to me (not just the definition of marriage), it just doesn't sound like something I'd be interested in.

Couple that with the fact that hookup culture seems to trump actually trying to get to know people these days and my cost risk analysis says "DON'T BUY!"

That's not to say that it couldn't change, but marriage isn't something that I see as a goal or anything of the sort. It's another option among the plethora already available to me. 

Perhaps rather than giving up, people should just put less stock in pairing off. If it's gonna happen, it'll happen sooner when you're not pushing for it. It's like my mother says, "A watched pot never cooks."


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## Demiurge (Dec 5, 2014)

tacotiklah said:


> Gotta love how it takes two people to make a relationship, yet it's always the other person's fault that things went to shit.



So much this, but it's kind of hard to predict exactly when the perspective actually kicks in (and perhaps then I can kind of feel bad for the people discussed in the OP article).

Before I met my wife, I was in a weird on-and-off relationship that spanned years and ended in a simply bizarre manner. In a way some people always remember their first love & heartbreak, and I suppose this was it for me. The whole ordeal left me alternating between depression, hauling a big chip on my shoulder, and pursuing some idiotic, romantic hope for reconciliation. I felt that the whole thing messed me up- correction, that _*she*_ messed me up. Thankfully, I moved on.

Years later I find myself thinking about her (she intermittently shows up in dreams, either as a friend or as someone to "homewreck" my marriage) and was curious as to why she still haunts me. I then realized, thinking about the big issues and whatnot, that there were just as many times in which I was selfish and horrible as she- that the way things ended was just as much my fault. It took years to realize that. Some people almost want to have that baggage: "the f*cking b*tch/bastard who f*cked me over" as the reason why they don't want to let anyone else in. _Certainly, there are more legitimate cases than others_, but I wonder how many other people put up that kind of wall without thinking about why.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 5, 2014)

Thinking about why would be a partial (at least) admittance of guilt that leads to the realization that you are in some way responsible for the way you feel. UNACCEPTABLE.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 5, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> Thinking about why would be a partial (at least) admittance of guilt that leads to the realization that you are in some way responsible for the way you feel. UNACCEPTABLE.


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## Lifestalker (Dec 5, 2014)

There's already lots to read and I'm going to go back and sift through it all as this is a subject that's very important to me.

I'm a 30 year old male who has slowly disconnected himself from the normal routines of most people (started very quickly after high school). I used to go out with "friends" and do stuff all the time from 18-21. I've never been to a strip club, I've never smoked, drank alcohol, ate shr00mz, taken pills, etc. 

I'm a recluse and most notably an introvert. I've talked to a psychologist and she heavily agreed with me being an introvert. My happiness doesn't come from people. It comes from alone time. It comes from music, reading articles, looking at cars, working on cars.

I've been single roughly 11 years. I've been on a few dates since, but nothing more than that. Usually ended with a few sexual encounters and then we willingly moved on from each other. Other than family, I've grown completely apart from people. People tend to piss me off if they don't live up to the way I live mine. This has absolutely destroyed my ability to grow as a musician and start another band. I've got one very close and true friend.

That said, I've gone this long being single that I can't possibly imagine changing the way my life is now. I love it. I come and go as I please. I do what I want, whenever I want. I have no one to worry about or check in with. If I had to deal with a woman, I'd probably end up hanging myself...literally. Seeing my friends deal with their wives and girlfriends is very depressing. They're always calling, texting, fussing because they aren't home doing this and that.

I can't say that I don't want a child. One of my sisters has a 3 year old daughter and the other has a 6 month old son. I love them more than any other human being in this world (aside from my own mother). I'd prefer not to adopt as I want the child to come from ME and I can't afford to buy into a surrogate mother. I'm kind of left hopeless in that aspect. If I never have one, I guess it isn't meant to be. 

I can attract women. That's not the problem. The problem for me is having to change my way of life to accommodate someone else. I'm very particular about my way of life and the way I live it. I have very specific routines for everything I do and if it's not met, I get upset. I'm a neat freak. Everything has to be in it's place at all times. I would have to find a girl version of me, and that's nearly impossible. 

As someone mentioned above, I'm a very happy person. Don't let anything I typed fool you into thinking otherwise. I don't think I'd have my life any other way unless I met the most amazing chick in the world and we both saw eye to eye. I'm not giving up, but I'm not going out of my way to meet someone. I've babbled on long enough and I feel like what I'm typing is really random  but look forward to reading more replies.


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## Necris (Dec 5, 2014)




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## Konfyouzd (Dec 5, 2014)

Lol @ "fake but that was cool"

This just in... Rocket scientists congregate on YouTube.


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## Mordacain (Dec 5, 2014)

Reading through some of the other responses here I think we should clarify that the article definitely was not from the perspective of someone suffering from true social phobia - an introvert. That being said, more people are becoming introverted (Likely due to the effects of social media / technology but that's a whole other discussion); while that certainly has an effect on a person's ability to meet people (I am decidedly in this group), it is not tantamount to what was being discussed in the article: perfectly normal, extroverted dudes cutting women off so to speak to focus on bro-time.

Maybe I just read into it, but it definitely seemed as something different from the usual actions of an introverted person of which we have hundreds if not thousands of years of documented anecdotal evidence of their behaviors.

TL,DR: I don't think the article really applies to introverts; we've being acting this way since the dawn of time.


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## Lifestalker (Dec 6, 2014)

Necris said:


>





Thanks for that. You seem like a sweet and kind individual. 



Mordacain said:


> Reading through some of the other responses here I think we should clarify that the article definitely was not from the perspective of someone suffering from true social phobia - an introvert. That being said, more people are becoming introverted (Likely due to the effects of social media / technology but that's a whole other discussion); while that certainly has an effect on a person's ability to meet people (I am decidedly in this group), it is not tantamount to what was being discussed in the article: perfectly normal, extroverted dudes cutting women off so to speak to focus on bro-time.
> 
> Maybe I just read into it, but it definitely seemed as something different from the usual actions of an introverted person of which we have hundreds if not thousands of years of documented anecdotal evidence of their behaviors.
> 
> TL,DR: I don't think the article really applies to introverts; we've being acting this way since the dawn of time.



Yeah, I totally understood what the article was getting at. Never took it as being applied to introverts. I simply stated my reasoning behind the way I've chosen to live my life. 

It wasn't until about 21 when I really started to fall off the grid and began to feel the negative effects of being around people all the time. I was very sociable, knew a lot of people, participated in lots of activities, etc.


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## tacotiklah (Dec 6, 2014)

The way that I look at it, if you're single and happy about it, stay single and stay happy. As long as you're not blaming anyone else for the choices you make for yourself, keep on being you. Where I get my panties in a twist is when I see guys blaming women for everything, then twist the argument to where they're the victim. Nah, both of you ....ed it up, you both did things that were unkind and selfish, and guys need to own up to their portion of the blame for that. Women aren't perfect either, and we do some heinous shit sometimes. Why? Because we're human, and humans have the capacity to do both great and terrible things to others.

God I wish to all high hell that we can get to the point where we treat each other as human beings and not as some sub-sub-genre of human beings.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 6, 2014)

tacotiklah said:


> God I wish to all high hell that we can get to the point where we treat each other as human beings and not as some sub-sub-genre of human beings.



Be awesome to live long enough to see this...


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## Necris (Dec 6, 2014)

Lifestalker said:


> Thanks for that. You seem like a sweet and kind individual.



The video was meant as a response to the original article.


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## Hollowway (Dec 6, 2014)

Meh, every generation feels this. It's not until in their 30s that most girls stop being attracted to asshole guys. (And guys to bitchy shallow girls). If I had any advice to men and women in their 20s it would be to purposefully check out, because a huge portion of relationships at that age are destined to fail, and most people aren't wise enough to know what really matters.


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## ChaosKyle (Dec 6, 2014)

I didn't really read the article but I've read a lot of replies in this thread. Let me just tell you where I'm coming from. I'm a cynical person. Not really introverted or have social anxiety or whatever. I really just don't like people. I only like my best friends and my family. I can't tell you why, there really isn't a past experience that made me like this, it's just how it is. I feel that a relationship wouldn't be in MY best interest. As someone earlier has mentioned, as you grow up and have a family, you make a lot and a LOT of sacrifices to make everyone around you happy. I want to be happy. You aren't promised an afterlife so do your best now to make yourself happy. If settling down with a family and raising children makes you happy, PLEASE PLEASE do that. Don't let anyone's opinion change your mind. Different strokes for different folks. I mean when I get older, I just want to come home from work in my nice car, flick on my TV and my PS6 and play some games or play guitar.

edit: oh and http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/wor...anide-japan-media-report-20141205-121hx9.html


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## Nyx Erebos (Dec 6, 2014)

steinmetzify said:


> It's not endemic to America either....they've done studies in other countries....France for example, according to this article, has the utter stupidity of having married men being forced to pay for, educate and raise children that their wives have as a result of an adulterous affair.  :bang: ....ing WHAT?! Please, European brothers, tell me this isn't true?!



As a french ss.orger I want to comment on that. From time to time there is a "father protest" because the system is made so that when a divorce happens, the mother almost always get the children and the father has to pay a pension.
As regards the issue with the child from an affair, I don't know enough about the wedding contract to assert anything but I believe that alduterous children are considered the same as in marriage children (bar the inheritance) but don't quote me on that.

About the article I always find it funny when someone thinks the way he lives is normal and the people who follow a different lifestyle are weirdos who need to be talked about. As someone who find social interactions annoying I'm obviously totally okay with people isolating themselves as long as they don't blame anyone for it.


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## loqtrall (Dec 6, 2014)

Eh, I'm not really an introvert, though I share several attributes with them. But I have given up on females. Most of my friends in high school and college were girls, which in turn accquainted me with _their _friends that were girls, and I can honestly say that out of the dozens of girls I've been personal friends with, I never met one I thought I could stand being in a relationship with. I'm not really a sexual guy, I'm not an asshole, and I try my best to show respect to women, but you'd be surprised to hear the shit girls talk about when they feel you're a trustworthy member of their "group". Most of it left a bad taste in my mouth for the gender. And after 13 years of hanging out with my very masculine and bro-worthy guy friends every weekend, if you think GUYS are the predominantly sexual and physically-thinking sex, you should think again. Some of the nasty shit me and my bros talked about was pretty tame compared to the shit my girl friends talked about at lunch/ect while I was sitting right next to them. Like sexual experiences, cheating on their boyfriends, the demensions of male genitalia and what it would feel like, pointing out guys they want to have sex with even though they're in a relationship, just to name a few. My guy friends rarely talked about sex in place of cars, beer, weed, music, food, video games, ect.

Don't get me wrong, though. I respect women where respect is due. I've had plenty of relationships. My last one was 5 years long and ended in her cheating on me with two guys. I think that's the one that pushed me over the social edge. After that I stopped going out on the weekends and meeting people. My online friends became the majority of my social life and most of them are guys. I mean, I still have no problem socializing with or talking to anyone when I'm out and about, I'd just prefer not to.

TL;DR: Getting to personally know lots of people on a "good friend" level has ruined people for me.


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## Grindspine (Dec 6, 2014)

asher said:


> This sounds like straight up MRA bullshit, sorry.


 
QFT


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## will_shred (Dec 6, 2014)

Sounds like a good topic for discussion. I think one of the reasons for the masses of Genx/millennials not getting to live "The American dream" in their mid 20's like our ancestors did is because of a lack of economic opportunity. Almost everyone I know has a job, and many of them have been at the same work place for quite a while. Yet most of them don't make enough to support themselves. It takes one couple working 2 jobs each just to get by. Nobody ever gets raises, nobody ever gets promotions, there are virtually no opportunities to move onto a higher paying job, and the employers will often find ways to keep their hours down. I know a lot of really driven, intelligent, compassionate people who have become seriously depressed, turned to substance abuse, largely dropped out of active social life because maintaining an active social life means having $$ to spend on excess gas, and food, and such which nobody has. If they haven't yet gone to college, they want to but can't afford it. There are virtually zero opportunities to move up on the income latter, people get tired of their dead end jobs, people lose hope and withdraw from society. 

This is just anecdotal, but it's what I've seen. The thing about men withdrawing from dating and marriage is just another symptom of the overarching problems facing our generation. Namely, lack of social mobility and economic opportunity.


Also, I don't really pay any attention to that article to be honest. Anyone who blames feminism for THEIR dating problems should probably take a look in the mirror  and i'm not familiar with French divorce law either so i'm not going to comment on that


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 6, 2014)

^Precisely. Don't like feminism? Don't date feminists. That subset of women isnt enough to make all women undatable. And I've honestly dated some women that fancy themselves modern feminists and they were perfectly reasonable ppl.

Projecting your social inadequacies on someone else only serves to create a self-fulfilling prophecy. One in which you're "right" that there's no point in dating but NOT for the reasons you provide. The reality is that you allow your disdain for a subgroup to make you unappealing to the vast majority of the rest as well.


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## WestOfSeven (Dec 6, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> Eh, I'm not really an introvert, though I share several attributes with them. But I have given up on females. Most of my friends in high school and college were girls, which in turn accquainted me with _their _friends that were girls, and I can honestly say that out of the dozens of girls I've been personal friends with, I never met one I thought I could stand being in a relationship with. I'm not really a sexual guy, I'm not an asshole, and I try my best to show respect to women, but you'd be surprised to hear the shit girls talk about when they feel you're a trustworthy member of their "group". Most of it left a bad taste in my mouth for the gender. And after 13 years of hanging out with my very masculine and bro-worthy guy friends every weekend, if you think GUYS are the predominantly sexual and physically-thinking sex, you should think again. Some of the nasty shit me and my bros talked about was pretty tame compared to the shit my girl friends talked about at lunch/ect while I was sitting right next to them. Like sexual experiences, cheating on their boyfriends, the demensions of male genitalia and what it would feel like, pointing out guys they want to have sex with even though they're in a relationship, just to name a few. My guy friends rarely talked about sex in place of cars, beer, weed, music, food, video games, ect.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, though. I respect women where respect is due. I've had plenty of relationships. My last one was 5 years long and ended in her cheating on me with two guys. I think that's the one that pushed me over the social edge. After that I stopped going out on the weekends and meeting people. My online friends became the majority of my social life and most of them are guys. I mean, I still have no problem socializing with or talking to anyone when I'm out and about, I'd just prefer not to.
> 
> TL;DR: Getting to personally know lots of people on a "good friend" level has ruined people for me.



Your experience is almost Identical to mine. I've had lots of female friends and after hearing what they talk about and what their thought process and system of logic is like or lack thereof along with my personal experiences has kind of made me jaded towards women. Girls are by far the most sexual gender  . 

I've had plenty of relationships, women and am not socially awkward just choose to live a relatively introverted lifestyle and focus on my own personal pursuits such as music, art and my work.


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## WestOfSeven (Dec 6, 2014)

ChaosKyle said:


> I mean when I get older, I just want to come home from work in my nice car, flick on my TV and my PS6 and play some games or play guitar.



This is my life now and I hope It's still the same 40 years down the road


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 6, 2014)

It gets boring. But I dunno if I necessarily mind all the time.


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## loqtrall (Dec 6, 2014)

WestOfSeven said:


> Your experience is almost Identical to mine. I've had lots of female friends and after hearing what they talk about and what their thought process and system of logic is like or lack thereof along with my personal experiences has kind of made me jaded towards women. Girls are by far the most sexual gender  .


 
The thing that bugs me the most is (and in no way am I trying to say this applies to all females) that the majority of girls I was friends with had no remorse at all for cheating on their boyfriends, but would start a war if they were cheated on. There are several instances I could cite where one of my girl friends would be saying she was nervous that her bf would find out she cheated and her friends would flock around her telling her how big an asshole her bf was and how much he deserved it, and how hot the other guy was. Then when the same girl finds out her boyfriend cheated on her as well, she says she'll kill him, and all her friends harass the guy and insult the .... out of him.

That's just one of the horrible things I discovered girls do over the course of hanging out with them for 6-7 years. I just can't handle that type of behavior. Relationships aren't a cat and mouse game to me, and that seems to be how most girls I know feel about them. I just can't get past their weird way of thinking to attempt to form a relationship.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 6, 2014)

Nyx Erebos said:


> As a french ss.orger I want to comment on that. From time to time there is a "father protest" because the system is made so that when a divorce happens, the mother almost always get the children and the father has to pay a pension.
> As regards the issue with the child from an affair, I don't know enough about the wedding contract to assert anything but I believe that alduterous children are considered the same as in marriage children (bar the inheritance) but don't quote me on that.
> 
> About the article I always find it funny when someone thinks the way he lives is normal and the people who follow a different lifestyle are weirdos who need to be talked about. As someone who find social interactions annoying I'm obviously totally okay with people isolating themselves as long as they don't blame anyone for it.


 
Thanks for chiming in man, it's appreciated and completely appalling at the same time.

Always good to post topics here.....this forum is educated, intelligent and well spoken, and it's good to interact here.

The post above that spoke of the lack of upward economic mobility for people could be a compelling reason for this as well...think about it....if you make $30 per hour, maybe 40 hours/wk, work at home, rent is $1200, food another $200-$300, gym membership $50 a month, cable/phone/internet plus a little savings and going out/eating out once in a while, what's left?

Traditionally men ask for dates and pay for dates....figure 3-4 per month or whatever, plus you want to buy guitars and amps and pedals, maybe some video games when something you're interested in comes out, and then you're busted until payday. I'm wondering if this is part of the problem...maybe guys are seeing this as a bad deal...not worth paying for dates, buying flowers etc...let alone getting heavily involved and securing a mortgage, car loans and whatnot for a woman they're not sure they're going to want to be with for the rest of their lives.


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## JeffFromMtl (Dec 6, 2014)

Sounds to me like a bunch of whiny cvnts who don't realize that they're whiny cvnts.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 6, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> The thing that bugs me the most is (and in no way am I trying to say this applies to all females) that the majority of girls I was friends with had no remorse at all for cheating on their boyfriends, but would start a war if they were cheated on. There are several instances I could cite where one of my girl friends would be saying she was nervous that her bf would find out she cheated and her friends would flock around her telling her how big an asshole her bf was and how much he deserved it, and how hot the other guy was. Then when the same girl finds out her boyfriend cheated on her as well, she says she'll kill him, and all her friends harass the guy and insult the .... out of him.
> 
> That's just one of the horrible things I discovered girls do over the course of hanging out with them for 6-7 years. I just can't handle that type of behavior. Relationships aren't a cat and mouse game to me, and that seems to be how most girls I know feel about them. I just can't get past their weird way of thinking to attempt to form a relationship.


Jesus, I sure as hell that doesn't apply to all women.  I think it's a lot more to do with the group of women in question and their (ass-backwards in that case) sense of morals. I just don't get the idea of cheating. If you wanna f**k other people, grow a goddamn pair and dump the person you're in a relationship because no one should have to put up with that and you clearly shouldn't be in a relationship if you aren't willing to commit to them. I haven't been cheated on (I think...) but I feel pretty strongly about it. It's just one of the most shitty, selfish things someone can do imo.


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## TheStig1214 (Dec 6, 2014)

BlackMastodon said:


> Jesus, I sure as hell that doesn't apply to all women.  I think it's a lot more to do with the group of women in question and their (ass-backwards in that case) sense of morals. I just don't get the idea of cheating. If you wanna f**k other people, grow a goddamn pair and dump the person you're in a relationship because no one should have to put up with that and you clearly shouldn't be in a relationship if you aren't willing to commit to them. I haven't been cheated on (I think...) but I feel pretty strongly about it. It's just one of the most shitty, selfish things someone can do imo.



Getting cheated on blows, and knowing that not _all_ but _so many_ women, even if it's less than 10%, think this way puts me even further off from seriously dating again. 

As previously stated I was cheated on 3 times by 2 different girls. And before you say "Oh, TheStig1214 must be a real asshole to have that happen." All of my female friends (who are basically my best friends' girlfriends) say I am pretty much perfect boyfriend material and were really surprised when it happened. Yeah, anyway. Getting cheated on sucks. Especially when they try to justify it and try to say it's not you or whatever. 

The worst I'd say though is when I was dating my most recent ex. She was very close with her first boyfriend. She made all the excuses, that they were better as friends, they had no attraction to each other anymore. I was cool with it. 4.5 months later, bam. They made out (possibly more, all I was told was that they made out). I basically felt destroyed. Then she says, and I quote "We both saw this coming." Really? Both of us? Last I remember you were saying it was all cool. 

/rant

Yeah, more reasons why I don't want a serious relationship again.


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## asher (Dec 6, 2014)

It's not even 10%. It's a bad and unfortunate of anecdotal experiences, probably of a relatively small sub group.


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## Mordacain (Dec 7, 2014)

asher said:


> It's not even 10%. It's a bad and unfortunate of anecdotal experiences, probably of a relatively small sub group.



 I've been cheated by only one person as far as I know. However, the girl in question was really messed up. She'd been raped as a child and couldn't have a healthy sexual relationship with anyone. She'd flit constantly from one dude to the next as soon as the interest would wane a bit. She relied on that initial feeling of love (that first head over heels phase) to keep from having to face and actually deal with what she'd been through. 

I dealt with at least 4-5 different occasions where I'm fairly certain she cheated. Oddly enough, I think I was the first person to really confront her about her issues and why she did the things she did. When I finally broke up with her, it apparently wrecked her and she got hooked on heroin in the subsequent weeks. 

I ran into her once out at a coffee shop a couple of years later and we chatted for a bit and I saw her current BF getting super jealous about how we were talking. I felt bad for the dude, but only so far. You have to know what you're getting into with someone like that after awhile.

Now, the point of that overly long story is that people almost always have a reason for doing things if they are not a shallow, superficial person. If you want to lower the chances of being cheated on, don't date narcissistic, superficial women. In my experience, it's pretty easy to tell genuine people from shallow people and in most cases, you can tell without having to go on a date with someone.


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## crg123 (Dec 7, 2014)

Been cheated on by every girl I've ever gone out (6) and it ....ing sucks. One even cheated on me with one of my best friends. Same thing as the Stig said it wasn't really me it was just they always wanted as much attention from guys as possible, or just didn't have the decency to end the relationship when they realized I wasn't the one for them.

Guess what I'm 25 now and found the perfect girl 4 years ago with no issues. We love and respect eachother. It does get better guys even if it doesn't feel like it. Basically you need to a find a partner. Funny thing when your girlfriend wants to pay for half of dinner and sometimes likes to trade off for the whole bill (just a small example of that kind of mind set). When they really doesn't want you to waste your money on buying her trivial things and just wants to save for your future together.

Its ....ing hard guys, but good things always come out of bad. One of those girls I dated for 3 years prior to my current one and I loved her more than anything. Turns out pretty much the whole relationship I was getting screwed over behind my back. Imagine finding that out?


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## piggins411 (Dec 7, 2014)

loqtrall said:


> Eh, I'm not really an introvert, though I share several attributes with them. But I have given up on females. Most of my friends in high school and college were girls, which in turn accquainted me with _their _friends that were girls, and I can honestly say that out of the dozens of girls I've been personal friends with, I never met one I thought I could stand being in a relationship with. I'm not really a sexual guy, I'm not an asshole, and I try my best to show respect to women, but you'd be surprised to hear the shit girls talk about when they feel you're a trustworthy member of their "group". Most of it left a bad taste in my mouth for the gender. And after 13 years of hanging out with my very masculine and bro-worthy guy friends every weekend, if you think GUYS are the predominantly sexual and physically-thinking sex, you should think again. Some of the nasty shit me and my bros talked about was pretty tame compared to the shit my girl friends talked about at lunch/ect while I was sitting right next to them. Like sexual experiences, cheating on their boyfriends, the demensions of male genitalia and what it would feel like, pointing out guys they want to have sex with even though they're in a relationship, just to name a few. My guy friends rarely talked about sex in place of cars, beer, weed, music, food, video games, ect.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, though. I respect women where respect is due. I've had plenty of relationships. My last one was 5 years long and ended in her cheating on me with two guys. I think that's the one that pushed me over the social edge. After that I stopped going out on the weekends and meeting people. My online friends became the majority of my social life and most of them are guys. I mean, I still have no problem socializing with or talking to anyone when I'm out and about, I'd just prefer not to.
> 
> TL;DR: Getting to personally know lots of people on a "good friend" level has ruined people for me.




I'm pretty good friends with several women and I can say that none of them are like this


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## loqtrall (Dec 7, 2014)

piggins411 said:


> I'm pretty good friends with several women and I can say that none of them are like this


 
Gotta remember that I knew these girls in high school and my freshman year of college (which is when my ex cheated on me by being double teamed by two guys, causing me to give up on socializing). Also, I was good friends with around 25-30 girls throughout that time, and not _all_ of them were like that. But the majority of them were a tight "group" of friends and acted like that all the time. I was one of maybe three or four guys who hung out with them all the time.

Obviously I know everyone is different.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Dec 7, 2014)

I literally just saw this today on FB and just posted it in the "Relationships" thread before stumbling upon this thread....weird...

My post:


Emperor Guillotine said:


> As embarrassing as it is for me to publically admit it, I am one of those who has just "checked out" and sunk into solitary pursuits (i.e. - all my music stuff). The "damned if you don't, damned if you do" situation that society has put men in is rather ridiculous so the solution is to "check out" and avoid. Of course, this goes without saying that some people are just naturally happy without relations. I'm one of those people. (Nothing to tie me down or inhibit my potential.)
> Some of the points in this article could be better worded; nonetheless, it presents a very accurate portrayal of what is occurring in our society.
> 
> The Sexodus, Part 1: The Men Giving Up On Women And Checking Out Of Society



I haven't really "consciously" chosen this path. It's just kind of naturally happened when I've become so engrossed in my music stuff (outside of school and my job) that I just don't have time for a romantic relationship. And honestly, I'm ok with that. But with the rise in every man being labeled as a "threat" or a "douche" to women everywhere, I think I'll just naturally continue along this path without thinking about it.

It's weird...the stuff in this article has been on my mind for awhile now...

@Steinmetzify: I think I might have you on FB without knowing it, dude.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 7, 2014)

Lmao...could be. I'm only on there once a month, but I know a ton of people from older forums, etc...maybe you do!


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