# Diving into suboctave territory...



## josh pelican (Oct 18, 2010)

All right, folks. As some of you know, I've been one of the avid posters when it comes to questions regarding low tunings for bass. I've always been there (along with knuckle_head and a few others) to help with string gauge/tension, amps, cabinets, electronics, etc... but now it's time for you to help me.

In the new year, I've decided it's my turn to finally go one octave lower. It may seem funny that I've been able to answer so many questions without ever doing it myself. Knowledge has never killed anyone, though. I'm just your average gear whore.

What I need help with is choosing what bass I should get. I had a huge list that I narrowed down to eight basses after coming to the conclusion I don't wanted to go over a grand. That automatically bumped Dingwall, one Ibanez model, MusicMan basses (they aren't top-loading anyway), and some others.

Here are the eight basses I'm stuck deciding on...

Ibanez SRT900DX:
Ibanez.com | Basses | SRT900DX

Ibanez SR750:
Ibanez.com | Basses | SR750

Carvin Icon:
Carvin.com - Custom Shop :: IC4
Carvin.com - Custom Shop :: IC4W

*Carvin LB70:
Carvin.com - Custom Shop :: LB70
Carvin.com - Custom Shop :: LB70A

Spector Legend:
Come on, it's Spector. This needs no additional information or pictures. I have one Spector now and it's fucking amazing.

Cort Artisan A4:
A4

Warwick Thumb BO (Used):
Warwick Basses Amps & Rock'n Roll

Custom Warmoth G4:
Uh, go to their website. I can't find any details because it will be custom.

What do you guys think? They're all top-loading and have decent electronics. If needed, I could easily upgrade any of them. The downside to the Warmoth is that I would get it without electronics and order/install it later. This can get costly.

Help a brother out.

*Note, the LB70A is one of the only exceptions for the over $1,000 rule. I was looking at the Ibanez SR5000E, but it's a few hundred more.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 18, 2010)

If you're a big Spector fan, track down a used Euro. I've seen them go for $900 - $1200 pretty consistently. If you look you'll probably even find a ReBop for close to that. 

Really man, I'd save up a little bit more. Going into the $1200 range could really score you some badass used stuff. 

Of the basses you have listed, I'm going to have to side with Carvin (Though, I'm typically a huge fan of Ibby basses). They'll offer high wood quality and spec to price ratio, more so than the others you've posted. Unless you're really into the figured woods, go with the LB70 and not LB70A.


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## josh pelican (Oct 18, 2010)

I'm kind of leaning toward an Ibanez or a Carvin.

I thought about a Spector Euro, but I decided I didn't want to turn it into a suboctave bass only because I don't know just how much use it would get. I would play it a good amount, just not enough to justify the Euro. I want a Euro 4LX and a Euro 5LX, but if I had either or they would be in my main arsenal. If I ended up playing in a band using a tuning that low, I would DEFINITELY jump on a Euro.

A ReBop wouldn't be too bad, but it all depends on whether or not I find one used for a good price. I would love to get a dark cherry burst ReBop 4. Mmmm. Drop an Aguilar OBP-3 and some Nordstrands into that. Oh boy!

One of the reasons I am leaning toward the Carvin is because I want to really put a spin on this. I know I can add a Hipshot X-Tender to any bass, but the LB70 models come with one. Playing an octave lower is fucking madness as it is... but what about DADG?! Another reason I am leaning towards Carvin is because, well, I've always wanted a Carvin!

With Ibanez and Carvin, I wouldn't upgrade them at all. With the Cort, I'm not really sure. I don't really know much about their electronics. With a Legend, I would probably upgrade it. I would probably upgrade any Spector, for that model.

I've decided against the Warwick, nevertheless.

This is a tough decision. What do the boys in Danza use?!


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## Razzy (Oct 18, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> I'm kind of leaning toward an Ibanez or a Carvin.
> 
> I thought about a Spector Euro, but I decided I didn't want to turn it into a suboctave bass only because I don't know just how much use it would get. I would play it a good amount, just not enough to justify the Euro. I want a Euro 4LX and a Euro 5LX, but if I had either or they would be in my main arsenal. If I ended up playing in a band using a tuning that low, I would DEFINITELY jump on a Euro.
> 
> ...



When I saw Danza, he was using an Ibanez SR(I do not remember the model) and his loe E was a .165.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 18, 2010)

If you can push up to $1200 that will get you a new Dingwall Combustion, and used ones go for around a grand if you can find one before someone else jumps on it. That's honestly my top recommendation.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 18, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> If you can push up to $1200 that will get you a new Dingwall Combustion, and used ones go for around a grand if you can find one before someone else jumps on it. That's honestly my top recommendation.



I didn't know the Combustion series was that cheap (price wise). If you can snag one, I'd say that'd be the best option as well.


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## jymellis (Oct 18, 2010)

have you looked into the ibanez ergodyne series?


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2010)

Do any of the members here have experience with Knuckle basses? I did a search and it seems that some members here want to steer clear of them, but I don't know why.

A Dingwall for $1200 sounds like a good deal.


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## josh pelican (Oct 19, 2010)

Hey, if I can snag a Dingwall for around a grand, I'd be all over it without a doubt. You don't see many for sale on ebay (that ship to Halifax anyway), and the ones on TalkBass are usually Afterburners that are several grand.

If I can't get a Dingwall, I'm definitely considering an SR (or SRT) or a Carvin.

jymellis - I have not seen those to be honest. The SRT models are pretty curved (like some Spectors, Warwicks, etc) and they look pretty damn nice:





Not to mention the sexy neck (which is neck-through):





EDIT: I just remembered that this bass is about $900-$1,000. I guess the Dingwall is back on my list... but they're still extremely hard to get your hands (a used one).


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 19, 2010)

Also, look for an SR1000 from a couple years ago. They were neck-thru, and had the body contours (like all SR basses). They were the MIK Prestige series, and were fantastic basses. I've see them go for under $1000 quite regularly.


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## josh pelican (Oct 19, 2010)

There were a few different SR1000 models, correct? I think some had regular bridges and P/J pickups while other models had two humbuckers and monorail bridges. Or am I completely wrong?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 19, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> There were a few different SR1000 models, correct? I think some had regular bridges and P/J pickups while other models had two humbuckers and monorail bridges. Or am I completely wrong?



There were a few permutations, yes. For whatever reason Ibanez has used a few different numbers a few times on different basses, in different years. Really, any 800+ series SR will be a really solid bass, and typically they go for very little on the used market. The 1000 to 1500 series were some of the best, arguably, and the SR800 is like the RG550 of Ibanez Basses, simple but very effective. They're all MIJ bar the most recent SR1500s, which are Korean but still very well made.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2010)

As long as you are sticking to four stringers, I don't think you can go wrong with an SR.

The string spacing on the fives and sixes always bothered me a bit, but that's just me.

Not that my intention is to totally derail this by recommending something that is totally not what you are looking for, but I've gotten extremely lucky with my Dean Edge Bass. My particular bass has the longer scale, and is just as well built as the Ibanezes that go for 1.5-2x as much. The pickups and electronics on it are also very good for the money. And, I've got it down to F# with no problems so far. 

But fair warning: when I bought it from the shop which employed me at the time, there were two others bought around the same time, and one of them had shipped out with a bad preamp. So, maybe the quality of these is not consistent.


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## Murmel (Oct 19, 2010)

Wouldn't a "34 scale be a bit short? I know that it's generally advised to go with a "35 on 5-stringers, so I don't see how it wouldn't apply if you're gonna tune down an entire octave.

Just thought I'd chime that in


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2010)

I've had good luck with tuning down pretty low on 35" scale. The trick is to find the narrow balance between string gauge and tension. Honestly, 35" is not much different than 34", but something like =>38" should be much better.

If money were no object for me, I'd have to have an extralong scale bass for tuning down, and I'd keep my 35"er in BEADGC.

It's just pretty expensive to get into those extralong scale basses.


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## josh pelican (Oct 19, 2010)

Murmie, you can make it work no problem. A guy on TalkBass has his Thunderbird set up for an octave lower and that has a 34" scale. Like Bostjan said, 35" isn't a huge difference, but 38" would rule. If I can get a Dingwall for a smoking price, I will definitely consider one. I just wish I could find some decent sound clips. The ones on Youtube fucking blow.

I'm starting to really consider an Ibanez which was my first idea. I'm starting to play around with ideas and may not necessarily go with one of the Ibanez models I've listed as I am keeping my eye open on used prices, too.

I'm going to see if anyone is interested in a trade (plus or minus cash) for my six string. My only offer so far was a G&L L-2500 Tribute, which I have declined.


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## ixlramp (Oct 19, 2010)

Ibanez BTB through-neck? 35" scale, 18v electronics, more downforce at the bridge, stronger neck make it ideal for low tunings, they're well known as high value tone monsters. Also, the more strings the better, more mass, stiffer neck.


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## LordCashew (Oct 19, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> I just wish I could find some decent sound clips. The ones on Youtube fucking blow.



Combustion Sound Clips | Dingwall Guitars

Sounds like a good suboctave candidate to me.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 19, 2010)

Dude, I have an ABI Elite 5. Clarity is the name of the game here, even with the "everything on 11" series pickup setting and the tone knob dropped to take some of the "edge" off. The Combustions use a very solid basic active EQ and excellent pickups; you should not have any problems.

Also, I've found sound clips on bass to be even less applicable to "real life" than sound clips on guitar. And that's saying something!


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## ixlramp (Oct 19, 2010)

One thing to check before buying ... is it possible to move the bridge saddles back far enough to intonate the big strings like .182 to .200?


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## Ruins (Oct 20, 2010)

i have never tried the spector nor carvin but, i do own the Ibanez SR405(upgraded with emgdc40) and the Ibanez SRT905.
the SRT is just pure awesomeness.
I love the wood and the sound of it, very full and rich. you can dial wide range of sounds, from slap tons to sub growls and everything else in between, long sustain and very clear sound. and this comes from finger maniac like my self.
i didn't post an NBD because i am still trying to find some day when sun still shines when i am back from work to take nice picture. looks like the more time passes the less likely for it to happen 

about sound clips, well, soon to come...
meanwhile you can see and hear my bass over here:


one complaint that i do have i think it came equipped with Elixir strings.
i dislike this strings they just don't feel like a string to me. the most little change in tension even like going half step down (like i did) just kills the Resistance of the string, it feels very flubby unlike Diadario strings for example, them you can really abuse. 

when i compare this bass to my SR405(basswood body and maple neck) the difference is like day and night. the sr405 has serious lack of mids and overblow of bass. not kind of a sound that you could do much with when recording but live situation it works.


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## josh pelican (Oct 20, 2010)

I didn't realize there were so many Combustion sound clips on the Dingwall site. Motherfuck.

I think it's coming down to an Ibanez or a Dingwall now.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2010)

What do you see as the major pros and cons of the Ibanez and Dingwall?


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## josh pelican (Oct 20, 2010)

1. Ibanez rules.
2. Dingwall rules.
3. ????
4. Profit.

But, seriously... let's see some pros and cons.

Ibanez (PRO):
-SR/SRT bodies rule.
-Contoured bodies = win.
-Ibanez necks are flawless. They always feel so good.
-Bartolini MK1 (or EMG) depending on the model.
-Solid, top-loading bridges.
-Amazing sound and EQ.
-Let's face it... they look fucking killer.

Ibanez (CON):
-I don't own an Ibanez bass.
-They don't come set up an octave lower.

I honestly cannot see any cons for the Ibanez basses.

While I know nothing about Dingwall electronics, they sound fucking amazing. I have never touched one in person so I don't know how they play. On Talkbass, there were Spector endorsees who owned many Spectors, used Spector avatars, and talked about them non-step... then they played a Dingwall and it just ended. I fear for this because I absolutely love Spectors. The fanned frets really intrigues me, especially with the added range for the low tuning.

I have not heard a bad thing about a Dingwall yet. People have said there are some delicious tones coming out of them... but it'll change once I get my hands on it. It's hard to say how "tonally diverse" it will be an octave lower. You won't be reading reviews like, "really aggressive jazz sound with more low end".

I think either way I can't go wrong. The only thing I am concerned about is string length for the Dingwall, although I think Skip can help me out here.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2010)

The thing is, I don't really see why an Ibanez would be any better for tuning down.

I've never owned a Dingwall, but I was lucky enough to test drive one ~7-8 years ago, in standard tuning. Through an Ampeg B5R, the thing just sounded huge! The particular model I was looking at was well out of my price range, but I could never resist checking out oddball gear. My experience with that bass is what sold me on multiscale...

Anyway, it sounds like you don't have any personal reasons to go for the Ibanez, which is great. Your instrument needs to match your personality; however, if the choice was up to me, I'd go for the Dingwall, especially if I was looking to tune down an octave, and especially if the price point was close.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 20, 2010)

The Dingwall neck smokes the Ibanez one. Flat and comfortable, much easier to adjust and way more stable. Also, my ABI is a featherweight, perfectly balanced. The tiny frets make playing pretty much effortless... I really clamp down when playing my Ric, but the Dingwall feels much more "composed" and balanced.

The Combustion doesn't have the really cool custom bridges that the ABs have (let alone the insane ones the Zs and the Primas use) but there should be plenty of intonation range and the individual bridges are solid.

The Dingwall pickups are easily equal (most likely better) than any Barts or EMGs, but that's a taste thing. The Combustions use the same pickups as the more expensive ABZs, although I believe they use an EMG-ish two-band preamp. Also, the scale lengths will seriously help you out.

The only tricky thing with Dingwalls is getting strings for them. Since you're looking to go suboctave, you're getting custom strings anyways; I'm assuming Circle K or similar. They offer strings in that sort of ridiculous scale length.


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## josh pelican (Oct 20, 2010)

I don't think the Ibanez is any better, I just really like them. The SRT900DX I posted is around a grand, so an extra $200 for a Dingwall is not at all out of my reach. I mean, that's almost one paycheck. The only thing I am preferring about the Combustion is the scale length and the fanned frets. Plus, like I mentioned before, if I don't end up sticking with the suboctave tuning, taking it back to standard would still leave me with a pretty nice bass, whether I go with the Ibanez or the Dingwall. If I go with the Dingwall, there's a better chance of resale price, if I ever dare to sell it.

I was thinking about how hard it is to get a used Dingwall where I am... but I could just order a new one from Dingwall directly. Chances are, a used Combustion would be around at least $1,000 US plus shipping. Brand new from the factory (or dealer) wouldn't be much more.

Plus, it'll be my first (partly) Canadian bass. 

But now I have a more bizarre question... what do you guys thing getting the Hipshot X-tender for DADG? I know a few people have conquered the C#, so I can't see this being too bad.

... and people think F# is heavy.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2010)

D?! That's like 18 Hz! I don't even know if there is a rig that will be able to reproduce the second harmonic of that note.

Why not? If you never try, you'll never know. If D doesn't work out, you could always tune F#BEA... and use the hipshot for drop E. That alone would be pretty cool, IMO.


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## josh pelican (Oct 20, 2010)

Yeah, that was my next option. I was thinking of that as well because than I would have no problem covering Danza (E/B/E/B). I just tune the A down a step. No big deal.

VERY INTERESTING.

EDIT: The only thing is F#BEA with an X-tender will bring me EBEA. To get to EADG, everything else will have to be tuned down a step, too. I know tuning down isn't a huge problem, but I've never down it on tunings this low. I don't want to run into any complications, and I don't want my strings being too floppy.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 20, 2010)

The best part about the Combustions?

All-maple neck, white body, baltic amber pickguard. Gorgeous instruments... I kind of wish my ABI had a maple board.

Also, lower =/= heavier


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## josh pelican (Oct 21, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> Also, lower =/= heavier


 
Fuck you, I'm going EADG with the X-tender then. You want to hear heavy? You're going to get heavy. DADG. I'll cover some shit off Ion Dissonance's "Cursed".



What string should I use? Danza uses a .195, but I want it to still sound, uh, good (I think that's the word I'm looking for) at DADG.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 21, 2010)

You're better off asking Circle K. I've never tuned lower than A on my bass.

And dynamics = heavier


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## josh pelican (Oct 21, 2010)

I have Circle K strings on two of four basses. Skip is my go-to guy.

Any I own in the future that will be used for lower tunings, they will also have Circle K strings. I wish I could get an endorsement.


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## Razzy (Oct 21, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> What string should I use? Danza uses a .195, but I want it to still sound, uh, good (I think that's the word I'm looking for) at DADG.



When I saw Danza in August, the bassist told me it was a .165.


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## bostjan (Oct 21, 2010)

FYI - 

For a low E at 20.6 Hz and a .195"

34" ~ 32.5#
35" ~ 34.5#
38" ~ 40.5#
39.5" ~ 43.75#

Going up to a 0.200"
34" ~ 34#
35" ~ 36#
38" ~ 42.5#
39.5" ~ 46#

Sounds like good light tension on the longer scales, but kinda floppy on the shorter scales. It'll be hard to tame a string of that diameter at a high tension, though.


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## josh pelican (Oct 21, 2010)

Razzy said:


> When I saw Danza in August, the bassist told me it was a .165.


 
Odd. Josh said they had a .195. I don't think a .165 is enough, but I guess dudes can use whatever they want!

Bostjan, since a Dingwall has fanned frets and a different scale length for each string, do you think a custom set (buy each string separately) would be better than the few EADG sets Skip has to offer?


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## bostjan (Oct 21, 2010)

Honestly, the variability in the scale length shouldn't make much of a difference in the way the string gauges work out, but if you plan on being extra careful, you could go a little (~.005") lighter on the D and G.

Circle K has string sets like .084" to .200", which should work

.084" G ~ 37.5#
.112" D ~ 38.5#
.150" A ~ 39.5#
.200" E ~ 40#

Maybe the high G and possibly the D are a little loose...


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## OwainXerath (Oct 21, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> If you can push up to $1200 that will get you a new Dingwall Combustion, and used ones go for around a grand if you can find one before someone else jumps on it. That's honestly my top recommendation.





I ditto this. Our bassist uses a Dingwall Combustion and it is hands down the nicest thing I've ever played, but it's sexy as!!! Check out some pics, and if you can try and get hold of one to try first. I hear Sheldon Dingwall is a pretty nice guy, he let our bassist borrow one for a video shoot. Turns out it was so nice he bought it.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 21, 2010)

Keep in mind the Combustion is a 5-er. So you can add a "high" (haha!) C if you want.


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## Durero (Oct 21, 2010)

+1 for the Dingwall Combustion.

As far as I know the specs on all 5-string Dingwalls are 34"-37" scales. You can use the scale/tension guide right off the Circle K website to calculate gages Josh. I think the multi-scale spec has a big influence on tension and gage choices.


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## josh pelican (Oct 22, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> Keep in mind the Combustion is a 5-er. So you can add a "high" (haha!) C if you want.


 
Why would I do that? I could set it up for BEADG. 

All right, guys. You've all beaten into my head. Dingwall Combustion it is!

I may go with the 0.084 - 0.200, but we'll see when the time comes!


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## bostjan (Oct 22, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> Why would I do that? I could set it up for BEADG.
> 
> All right, guys. You've all beaten into my head. Dingwall Combustion it is!
> 
> I may go with the 0.084 - 0.200, but we'll see when the time comes!



A low B00?! I can't imagine how that would sound, or what string would be used... Keep me posted.


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## josh pelican (Oct 22, 2010)

Hahaha, I don't think I'm going to go for that. I'm just going to go for EADG with the X-tender. DADG is enough... for now.

I do recall Skip saying he had a string for that B00 and I know he makes a .254 for 34" or 35" scale basses. It wouldn't work for the Combustion, but the thought of it makes me want to eat my own bowels and attempt to shit it back out.


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## ixlramp (Oct 22, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> Bostjan, since a Dingwall has fanned frets and a different scale length for each string, do you think a custom set (buy each string separately) would be better than the few EADG sets Skip has to offer?



Hopefully knuckle_head will confirm this, AFAIK Circle K 'traditional' sets (such as .200 .150 .112 .084 .064) are actually designed to create a balanced tension when used on a Dingwall. The standard Dingwall fan was used for the calculations.

The .254 is available for any scale length 34"-40".


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## josh pelican (Oct 22, 2010)

You guys are blowing my mind. I did not expect to see so many informative responses. I expected more responses like, "You can't do that", "It'll sound like shit", "You don't have an amp that will reproduce those notes", "You can't hear those notes", "You don't need to play an octave lower", and "Why?"


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 22, 2010)

What would you be using for amplification? Even the TecAmp Puma (which is about as deep as it gets) has a HPF set somewhere around 18-30Hz.

Also, pack arseloads of wattage and maybe a fEarful or two. It's hard to get much volume that low.


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## josh pelican (Oct 22, 2010)

Probably 600 tube watts and a few custom cabinets from Lowdownsound or something.

Matt (MORS) uses a bunch of vintage gear. He uses two or three Sunn heads, Sunn cabs, and a few other older ones I can't recall.

MORS on Myspace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads


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## Hollowway (Oct 23, 2010)

Hey, do you guys have any links to clips of bass notes that low? I'm not sure I've ever heard anything like that, and I don't see anything on Knuckle Head's instrument page.


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## Durero (Oct 23, 2010)

There are sound samples on the O4P bass strings page: Octave 4 Plus

scroll down the custom roundwound strings page - they're scattered here & there.


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## Adam (Oct 23, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> Why would I do that? I could set it up for BEADG.
> 
> All right, guys. You've all beaten into my head. Dingwall Combustion it is!
> 
> I may go with the 0.084 - 0.200, but we'll see when the time comes!





Hollowway said:


> Hey, do you guys have any links to clips of bass notes that low? I'm not sure I've ever heard anything like that, and I don't see anything on Knuckle Head's instrument page.



octave4plus.com Go to the Custom Round Wounds Strings section. Old clips, but they will give you an idea. Even as low as G#00.


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## TemjinStrife (Oct 23, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> Probably 600 tube watts and a few custom cabinets from Lowdownsound or something.
> 
> Matt (MORS) uses a bunch of vintage gear. He uses two or three Sunn heads, Sunn cabs, and a few other older ones I can't recall.
> 
> MORS on Myspace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads



You're certainly not going to get much fundamental with that sort of setup. Fundamental isn't necessary, but old-style cabs (and overdriven tube amps) have a fairly substantial low-end rolloff that won't help give your low notes "impact."

You want to do this the "fun" (and imho "best") way, go biamp. Run a Sunn or other tube head, then get a sub (3015LF or two in appropriately sized box) and some heavy-duty solid state power, cross over around ~100-150 Hz. Grind on the upper harmonics and more typical bass notes, solid clear lows with massive excursion on the bottom.

One of those fEarful 1515/66 cabs and around 2k watts would be great too, and less of a schlep.


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## Hollowway (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks Durero and Adam. I checked out those clips. Holy crap, that's low! I had to crank up the computer (just my stock imac speakers) just to hear the C#0, and even then I could barely hear it. 
@Josh P, are you going to be recording with this? I'm guessing there are special things you have to do to record notes that low so they aren't completely lost on the average speaker/ear bud, no?


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## josh pelican (Oct 23, 2010)

I probably will biamp it, but by the time I get the Dingwall and have it set up, it will be a while before I get the right amp for the job. I'm hoping to have to a 610/215 combo going by then, too. That isn't necessarily for my suboctave bass, that will be for my other basses. Chances are, I will have to use that until I get the proper setup. I mean, it'll be better than nothing.

I will probably get some fEarful cabs (made by Lowdownsound) that I will use for this. They seem to be a pretty damn good route for anything, really... It's hard to say when I will get to use this in an actual band setting, but it will pretty fucking fun when I do.


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## knuckle_head (Nov 1, 2010)

FWIW - Traditional Circle K sets are tensioned with the Dingwall .75" scale difference from string to string. If you land a Dingwall the Traditional sets will give you balanced tension and your tuning is determined by gauge choice.

Welcome to the dark side.....


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## josh pelican (Nov 2, 2010)

The lowest tuning I've had was F#/B/E/A/D/G. It's just... not low enough. Soon, my friends. Soon.


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## josh pelican (Dec 16, 2010)

All right, folks. In either January or February I am buying a new bass. Do you know what the means? Yeah, it means E00.

I was thinking about going four string only, but right now I'm starting to lean towards a Dingwall fiver. The reason being is that I've started writing riffs in drop B, putting them in Guitar Pro, and changing the tuning to EAEADGB. I can either leave the four string in EADG and just move the notes around on on D and G, or I can get a five string and tune it EAEAD.

With the four, I would use the D-Tuner for fun and go DADG, but it won't be very practical and would only use it for the occasional Ion Dissonance riff from "Cursed". I'm kind of thinking the five string may be a funner route. I could still use the D-Tuner and come up with the some really bizarre tunings on the five.

What do you guys think? Four or five? No matter what, I'm set on Dingwall. Shortly after, I will probably get a seven string guitar and start recording but I want to get that low E working on the bass first to make sure I can record it and get it sounding good before getting the guitar.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 16, 2010)

The string spacing on a Dingwall (18mm unless you get a Super J, which I'm guessing is rather unlikely ) is the same regardless of number of strings. The necks are very slim and comfortable regardless of the number of strings, but the profile on the 5 just feels *right* to me. Also, you don't get the 37" scale on the low string unless you get a 5er.

That said, I remember seeing a picture of a four-string "baritone Dingwall" that looked like it must have been 40" scale... but I have no idea what that was or if another one was ever built.

Anyways, take this with a grain of salt because I love having a five-string, but I think that's the way to go.

What model are you thinking? ABZ?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 16, 2010)

Listen to everything Durero says, otherwise you will fail.


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## josh pelican (Dec 16, 2010)

Durero may be a wise man, but trust me, I know what I'm doing . I'm not saying I know more than him because I don't know him, but I know what's up.

I'm definitely thinking I will go with a fiver. If I don't keep it set up like that, I can chuck it back in standard and it will sound amazing. Dingwalls are so punchy. I'm thinking ABZ or Combustion, unless I find a smoking deal on a used Z of Afterburner I. I'd love to get my hands on a Prime Artist, but those price tags aren't as nice as the basses.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 17, 2010)

The extra $600 or so for the ABZ is worth it, IMHO. Then again, I generally prefer passive instruments, and love the more modern look of the ABZ. And, you can get them in awesome colors!












The "both pickups in series" mode on these is freaking insane by the way. It's hotter than my active Schecter and has more mid punch than pretty much anything I've played. It's anything but subtle, and can be a bit much in a busy mix; but I'm playing in a grungy three-piece these days and with some Ampeg-y grit it sounds amazing.


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## josh pelican (Dec 17, 2010)

I'm leaning towards an ABZ. I'm going to keep my eye open for the next two months to see if I can find a nice used one in Canada or at least the east coast of the United States. If all else fails, I'll just order one straight from Sheldon.

So for the first little bit, I'll be playing this through an Ampeg full stack or into my Line 6 gear. It'll give me a chance to really try out my new headphones that go down to 8 Hz .

I'm not 100% sure on strings yet. Obviously my choice will be Circle K, but I'm still working on the gauges. I'll want something top heavy but lighter bottom. I know one guy that uses .182 and Phil (Danza) uses .195. I'll talk to Skip and he'll talk care of me.

I'm thinking that if it comes to the point where I'll be using it live, I may go preamp -> power amp then decide on speakers later. There are limited options, but the choices I have in mind will all work.

I'm hoping those Turbo Tuners will work their magic for me. I may have good ears for low tunings, but I don't think I can tune that low E without one!


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## josh pelican (Dec 17, 2010)

I just realized there's a Dingwall dealer in Prince Edward Island which is extremely close to me. This might be easier than I thought.

Also, Sheldon (Dingwall) said I should consider a Super J for dialing in the right tones for my setup.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 17, 2010)

Sheldon mentioned that on TB because he wanted you to have access to the widest range of strings to try that tuning in (The Super Js run 32-35"). However, Circle K will do Dingwall scale lengths, so if you want maximum low B awesomeness, you can still go for an AB or ABZ (plus, the Super J can end up in the same price bracket as the lower-specced Z series, so they're not cheap by any means.)


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## josh pelican (Dec 17, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> However, Circle K will do Dingwall scale lengths, so if you want maximum low B awesomeness, you can still go for an AB or ABZ



Wait, what low B? 

I have several parts written and I can't fucking wait to try 'em out on the Dingwall. Some of them are absolutely crushing.


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## TemjinStrife (Dec 17, 2010)

Low string, whatever.  

His comment is valid, definitely; it's annoying trying to find non-Dingwall strings that actually fit the 34-37" models. I don't know which manufacturer you were planning on going with, but as mentioned above, Circle K has you set in terms of length.


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## Durero (Dec 17, 2010)

I very much agree with TS about going for the longer scale Dingwall.

I've been trying to reach F0 on my Chapman Stickbass 8 using .195 SIT strings but the 34" scale is really not cutting it and it's way too muddy. That's partially due to the tapping technique which means I'm only getting a 32" scale when I tap at the first fret. But nonetheless, longer scale = better in my experience.


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## josh pelican (Dec 17, 2010)

Definitely Circle K. Why use anything else for low tunings?

Hell, I use them on my four string Spector strung for drop B. I think for that low E the strings will still have some damn good punch and clarity.


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## Durero (Dec 17, 2010)

Stealthtastic said:


> Listen to everything Durero says, otherwise you will fail.


 





josh pelican said:


> Durero may be a wise man, but trust me, I know what I'm doing . I'm not saying I know more than him because I don't know him, but I know what's up.


For the record I'm very excited to see & hear the results of your quest for super low E dude! 

My band is just starting to explore F0 on bass to get the bassist an octave below the guitars again. I love the way you're thinking and look forward to learning from the info & clips you're sharing with us in this thread. 

Plus you're a fellow canuck


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## josh pelican (Dec 18, 2010)

Hell, yeah! One of my best friends moved over to your side recently. I think she is currently in Kelowna. I know it's four-five hours away depending on exact locations, but maybe if I go to visit her there will be a way for us to meet and chat about the low end of life. Perhaps at a show or something.

What will your bassist be using? The Ampeg B-410HLF makes a nice amp for it, especially two of them. I want a 610 and a 215, but some custom fEarful/Lowdownsound cabinets are worth looking into as well.

I'm still debating whether to use an Ampeg head (or two) or a preamp and power amp. Two Ampeg heads could cause someone to shit their pants with E00 action.

I have more stuff written. Today I will probably try to put them together into one Guitar Pro file and see if I can make a full song. If I can, I will definitely post it if people are interested. It will make Acacia Strain look like Blink 182.

Nah, I'm just kidding. It will definitely sound like Whitechapel/Acacia Strain. It won't be anything special... at least until I get the instruments in my hand and get a hang of the low E.


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## josh pelican (Dec 18, 2010)

I want a Z3, but I don't feel like spending the cash. As stoked as I am to try out the low E, I don't think spending that much will be worth it.

This one belongs to metalstorm on Talkbass:











Fucking beautiful.


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## Durero (Dec 18, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> Hell, yeah! One of my best friends moved over to your side recently. I think she is currently in Kelowna. I know it's four-five hours away depending on exact locations, but maybe if I go to visit her there will be a way for us to meet and chat about the low end of life. Perhaps at a show or something.


That'd be awesome. Let me know whenever you do make it out to this coast. I've never made it east of Ottawa and eventually the gf and I wanna do a cross country trip. One of these days.



josh pelican said:


> What will your bassist be using? The Ampeg B-410HLF makes a nice amp for it, especially two of them. I want a 610 and a 215, but some custom fEarful/Lowdownsound cabinets are worth looking into as well.


The other guitarist in my band has a side project called GFAP and they've gotten great results using a 35" scale Peavy Grind tuned to F#0. You can hear a bit of it here: Turtle Destruction Wave by GFAP! | Myspace Music
The bass sounded fantastically loud and clear when they played live. Didn't catch what bass rig they were using but I can find out.



josh pelican said:


> I'm still debating whether to use an Ampeg head (or two) or a preamp and power amp. Two Ampeg heads could cause someone to shit their pants with E00 action.
> 
> I have more stuff written. Today I will probably try to put them together into one Guitar Pro file and see if I can make a full song. If I can, I will definitely post it if people are interested. It will make Acacia Strain look like Blink 182.
> 
> Nah, I'm just kidding. It will definitely sound like Whitechapel/Acacia Strain. It won't be anything special... at least until I get the instruments in my hand and get a hang of the low E.


Looking forward to hearing what you come up with


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 18, 2010)

Theres a reason nobody goes east of Ottawa though 

Stop being indecisive and thinking, just spend your damn money already eerpressure:


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## Durero (Dec 18, 2010)

The Dingwalls are indeed drool-worthy 

There's a semi-hollow Afterburner 2 at the Long & McQuade in Vancouver. I tried it out and it was so freekin beautiful and light and plays like a dream. If I had the money I'd have bought it right away.


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## josh pelican (Dec 18, 2010)

If you ever make it to Halifax, hit me up!

Temjin posted a link to a nice Dingwall on Talkbass for sale. I can afford it no problem, but I want to try to wait until the new year to purchase one. Plus, the guy only ships within the USA.

I may take a trip over to the store in PEI that is a Dingwall dealer.


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## josh pelican (Dec 19, 2010)

This is what it should sound like, but maybe a little clearer with the Dingwall:
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I posted it in the recording section. That's my LTD B-206. It's set up for G# (or Ab). I tuned the open string down to E0 and just recorded it straight into Audacity.

There is absolutely no editing. It sounds better than I expected, but it's probably because there's an Audere preamp in there. 

This sounds even better than when the bass was set up for F# with Garry Goodman strings. I was playing up and down the neck and it isn't that bad. Sounded nice through my Ampeg, too.

EDIT: I've made a bit of mistake here and I'm awfully embarrassed. E00 (E-1?) is two octaves down from standard. I'm meaning I am tuning to E0, which is just one octave from standard. E00 is impossible. C#0 is the lowest note recorded on a bass (well, that's clear to human ear).


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## LordCashew (Dec 20, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> I've made a bit of mistake here and I'm awfully embarrassed. E00 (E-1?) is two octaves down from standard. I'm meaning I am tuning to E0, which is just one octave from standard. E00 is impossible. C#0 is the lowest note recorded on a bass (well, that's clear to human ear).



I've heard of subcontrabasses and ERBs tuned as low as G#00. E00 is probably possible theoretically. I don't know if anyone has made a thick enough string, or even if it would sound good, though.

That's what, 10Hz? Your octave harmonic would be at the bottom of the audible spectrum, with a lot more information in the super-low end. Might sound cool. I mean, decades ago people thought a 6-string bass with a low B was impossible, now low F# is gaining acceptance, who knows? Maybe E00 is worth looking into.


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## josh pelican (Dec 20, 2010)

E00 is roughly 10.3 Hz.

If you listened to the audio file I posted, the E0 is pretty decent sounding. In the mix it's hard to say what will happen. I am going to record a few rough tracks when I get a guitar setup and we'll see what happens. I'll be using a d-tuner to hit drop D (18.35 Hz).

After I record E0 for a while, maybe I'll want to go lower. I know a lot of people think it's ridiculous, and people on TalkBass frown upon tuning differently... although some frown for not using only Fenders .

The hunt to go lower is something I've always loved. I don't tune down more and more just to get "brutal" or "heavy". I like tuning down to see how low I can get!

Acacia Strain tuned lower for every album. Maybe I'll start with E0 and go lower for every album. 

P.S.: This will probably be a solo project. I don't know anyone else around to crazy enough to do it. I may be looking at people on here to help with drums and vocals.


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## iron blast (Dec 24, 2010)

So have you gotten a Dingwall yet? currious because there is a sexy one on ebay currently if you are interested.


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## josh pelican (Dec 24, 2010)

Nah, it will happen in the next few months.


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## iron blast (Dec 24, 2010)

josh pelican said:


> Nah, it will happen in the next few months.



Which model are you getting?


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## josh pelican (Dec 26, 2010)

I'm leaning towards the ABZ.


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