# Microsoft Project Natal - Fail or Win?



## silentrage (Jun 2, 2009)




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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

It has the potential to be very win, we'll just have to see what they come out with that utilizes it. I'm not feeling the car racing one, that one seems stupid as hell.


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## silentrage (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm waiting on some fat guy to trip and fall while playing street fighter 5 and sue microsoft. Probably me, lol.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Hurray for none-original ideas.


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## cddragon (Jun 2, 2009)

This could be nice, depending on the price and games for it


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Hurray for none-original ideas.



Howso?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 2, 2009)

possibly win. we won't know until it arrives.


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## Bound (Jun 2, 2009)

I don't want my Xbox to be a Wii.

I want to sit on my ass, drink some beers and get take some violence out on my TV screen.
If I wanted to jump up and down and do shit, I'd go outside and do shit. After all I am an adult and am completely capable of walking outside without restrictions.

Lets keep video gaming lazy and the outside world outside.

This could certainly be a Wii killer though.

Edit:
BTW, I hate that family and I hope a serial killer visits their fantasy home.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 2, 2009)

Bound said:


> I want to sit on my ass, drink some beers and get take some violence out on my TV screen.
> If I wanted to jump up and down and do shit, I'd go outside and do shit. After all I am an adult and am completely capable of walking outside without restrictions.
> 
> Lets keep video gaming lazy and the outside world outside.
> ...


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Elysian said:


> Howso?



Ever heard of Sonys EyeToy for the PS2?


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## vampiregenocide (Jun 2, 2009)

Bound said:


> I don't want my Xbox to be a Wii.
> 
> I want to sit on my ass, drink some beers and get take some violence out on my TV screen.
> If I wanted to jump up and down and do shit, I'd go outside and do shit. After all I am an adult and am completely capable of walking outside without restrictions.
> ...


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Ever heard of Sonys EyeToy for the PS2?


Nope, and I'm guessing there is a reason for that Doing a quick google, it seems like MS's idea is a lot more powerful and versatile than the EyeToy. The Wiki also tells me that Sony's EyeToy wasn't even an original idea.



> The EyeToy was originally devised by Dr. Richard Marks, who had the idea of connecting a web camera to a PlayStation 2 and using it as a peripheral to play video games. The idea of using cameras in games was not new, as it was previously used in many arcade games and toys such as the Game Boy Camera and the Dreameye digital camera for the Sega Dreamcast, the latter of which affected the development of the EyeToy; however, with the resolution of modern cameras and the processing power of the PlayStation 2 new ideas were possible that were not achievable on the Game Boy. The idea was taken up by SCE London Studio, who showed a concept in 2002 with four games.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Elysian said:


> Nope, and I'm guessing there is a reason for that Doing a quick google, it seems like MS's idea is a lot more powerful and versatile than the EyeToy. The Wiki also tells me that Sony's EyeToy wasn't even an original idea.



Still doesn't makes Microdicks take on it original. You can't reinvent the wheel.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Still doesn't makes Microdicks take on it original. You can't reinvent the wheel.



But you can innovate it. Don't be so bitter, the 360 is already a great platform, this has the potential to make it even better.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Elysian said:


> But you can innovate it. Don't be so bitter, the 360 is already a great platform, this has the potential to make it even better.



So stealing and copying from Nintendo and Sony and putting it into a technical inferior console is now called innovative.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> So stealing and copying from Nintendo and Sony and putting it into a technical inferior console is now called innovative.



The 360 is technically inferior? Is that why it has more games running at 1080p than Sony, and has higher framerates in games that are on both consoles? Theres a lot of data that conflicts with your claims of technical inferiority. So was Sony ripping off the Wii with the Sixaxis? what about Sony's newly announced motion sensing controller, is it unoriginal and ripping off the Wii? Is everyone with motion sensing now ripping off the Wii(which is the most technically inferior console out right now)? BTW, all you're doing in this thread now is trolling.

Heres a good article I found, by an actual game developer, as to why the 360 is superior to the PS3
http://www.hardcoreware.net/reviews/review-348-1.htm



> Performance: On paper, the PS3 is more powerful. In reality, it's quite inferior to the 360. Without getting into too many details, the three general-purpose CPU's the xbox360 has are currently FAR easier to take advantage of than the SPU's on the PS3. I suspect a few years down the road some high budget, first party PS3 exclusive titles will come out that really take advantage of the SPU's and do things the XBOX 360 can't, but I don't think the console is worth buying based on this speculation (for some it will be though, we'll have to wait and see how these games turn out).
> 
> Graphics: The XBOX 360 is a clear winner. The GPU is more powerful. It has more powerful fillrate, and far more pixel and vertex processing horsepower. Part of the reason is their choice of memory, and architecture of pixel and vertex procesing. I can't get into details but the same vertex shader will run much slower on the PS3 than the XBOX 360. The 360 also has a clever new way rendering high definition anti aliased back buffers. To accomplish the same effect on PS3 is prohibitively expensive. For this reason I think many games will have no choice but to run in non-HD resolutions on the PS3 version, use a lower quality anti aliasing technique, or do back buffer upscaling. The end result in all cases is going to be noticeably worse image quality.


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## HighGain510 (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Still doesn't makes Microdicks take on it original. You can't reinvent the wheel.



I don't think anyone here was debating it being original or not except you thus far.  


I think for some types of games (fighting, sports, FPS etc.) it has the potential to be pretty cool, but it really depends on how accurately that camera device can track your motion. I still find the Wii to be kinda buggy at times so if it's similar to that I'm not going to be jumping up for joy and running out to buy one anytime soon.  Like Elysian said, the driving-style games look ridiculously lame IMO... I got tired of using the Wii Wheel with Mario Kart Wii after about 2 days.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

HighGain510 said:


> I don't think anyone here was debating it being original or not except you thus far.
> 
> 
> I think for some types of games (fighting, sports, FPS etc.) it has the potential to be pretty cool, but it really depends on how accurately that camera device can track your motion. I still find the Wii to be kinda buggy at times so if it's similar to that I'm not going to be jumping up for joy and running out to buy one anytime soon.  Like Elysian said, the driving-style games look ridiculously lame IMO... I got tired of using the Wii Wheel with Mario Kart Wii after about 2 days.



I love a real race wheel, nothing beats it, especially not an air wheel. Thats about as lame as an air guitar! This could be cool for fighting games, boxing, maybe even UFC.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Funny thing is that I'm watching Sonys E3 press conference
...
guess what Sony is showing right now XD


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## synrgy (Jun 2, 2009)

Sure as shit more exciting than anything Nintendo or Sony said today. 

Though, I agree with previous statement: When I play video games, I WANT to be sitting on my ass on my couch not moving much of anything except my fingers.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Funny thing is that I'm watching Sonys E3 press conference
> ...
> guess what Sony is showing right now XD



An unoriginal motion sensing technology because the Wii beat everyone to it?


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## synrgy (Jun 2, 2009)

Elysian said:


> An unoriginal motion sensing technology because the Wii beat everyone to it?



I watched the whole thing. They basically 'unveiled' a bunch of sequels to tired franchises (notably Final Fantasy) and a revamp of the PSN interface. Oh, and a sequel to one of the best selling games ever that nobody played for more than 10 minutes. (Assassin's Creed)



Oh, and Nintendo is excited about a 'new' motion sensor control, a 'new' wii fit (with a blood pressure monitor attachment), 2 'new' Mario games, blah blah blah. Only thing they mentioned that I found interesting is that they tapped Team Ninja to make the next Metroid game.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

synrgy said:


> I watched the whole thing. They basically 'unveiled' a bunch of sequels to tired franchises (notably Final Fantasy) and a revamp of the PSN interface. Oh, and a sequel to one of the best selling games ever that nobody played for more than 10 minutes. (Assassin's Creed)
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and Nintendo is excited about a 'new' motion sensor control, a 'new' wii fit (with a blood pressure monitor attachment), 2 'new' Mario games, blah blah blah. Only thing they mentioned that I found interesting is that they tapped Team Ninja to make the next Metroid game.



My question is if you can travel forward in time. cause unless you can do that you can't know all that is being shown at the press conference because its still ongoing.


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## klutvott (Jun 2, 2009)

I'm still wondering how many push-ups Chuck Norris can do.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

klutvott said:


> I'm still wondering how many push-ups Chuck Norris can do.



Chuck Norris can not do push-ups. He can only push the world down


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## synrgy (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> My question is if you can travel forward in time. cause unless you can do that you can't know all that is being shown at the press conference because its still ongoing.



I spoke too soon. They went to some kind of break and I thought Sony were done presenting. They _still_ haven't shown anything inventive or innovative.


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## klutvott (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Chuck Norris can not do push-ups. He can only push the world down


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

synrgy said:


> I spoke too soon. They went to some kind of break and I thought Sony were done presenting. They _still_ haven't shown anything inventive or innovative.



2 games that are must haves in my eyes is what you missed.
Finally the first trailer to Gran Turismo 5 (the real one not Prologue)
And the Brutal God Of War 3.
Also a new Metal Gear for the PSP which makes me actually think about picking up on (most likely the new PSP Go if I buy one).
I'm also looking forward to MAG.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> 2 games that are must haves in my eyes is what you missed.
> Finally the first trailer to Gran Turismo 5 (the real one not Prologue)
> And the Brutal God Of War 3.
> Also a new Metal Gear for the PSP which makes me actually think about picking up on (most likely the new PSP Go if I buy one).
> I'm also looking forward to MAG.



Have you seen the in game Forza 3 stuff? Forza will also be out sooner, its going to be out in October, with over 400 cars, and over 100 individual tracks, as well as very detailed cockpit views, realistic damage, and even the ability to flip your car if you mess up too bad. Its really exciting to know its just around the corner. MS will have released Forza 2, and Forza 3, before Sony even finishes GT5. I truly hope GT5 is better than Prologue, because Prologue sucks. Hard.


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## synrgy (Jun 2, 2009)

So, sequels, sequels, and more sequels.



The video game industry needs to stop drinking the same Kool-Aid that the motion picture industry has been drinking for the last decade.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Elysian said:


> Have you seen the in game Forza 3 stuff? Forza will also be out sooner, its going to be out in October, with over 400 cars, and over 100 individual tracks, as well as very detailed cockpit views, realistic damage, and even the ability to flip your car if you mess up too bad. Its really exciting to know its just around the corner. MS will have released Forza 2, and Forza 3, before Sony even finishes GT5. I truly hope GT5 is better than Prologue, because Prologue sucks. Hard.



Yeah Forza looks like a great Racer too.
But GT5 will have more variety. WRC and NASCAR with the official licenses, something that looked like either 24h of Le Mans or FIA GT and lot of other car typs + GT for PSP.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Yeah Forza looks like a great Racer too.
> But GT5 will have more variety. WRC and NASCAR with the official licenses, something that looked like either 24h of Le Mans or FIA GT and lot of other car typs + GT for PSP.



Nascar doesn't interest me in the slightest. Having licenses doesn't necissarily mean it will have more variety either.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

Heres some points about the Sony presentation I agree with. From another forum I post on



> a bit of a lackluster presentation this whole sony e3 thing was....
> - most of the big titles are coming next year, what about the end of this year? MS got some nice exclusives the last 3 months of 2009
> - still no price cut (you can buy 2 xbox360's or 1 ps3....)
> - ripping things of from nintendo. (the most blatent wiimote copy ever)
> ...


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## cyril v (Jun 2, 2009)

IMO this particular clip wasn't very impressive, but the actual Peter Molyneux demo was incredible.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

> a bit of a lackluster presentation this whole sony e3 thing was....
> - most of the big titles are coming next year, what about the end of this year? MS got some nice exclusives the last 3 months of 2009
> *- still no price cut (you can buy 2 xbox360's or 1 ps3....)
> - ripping things of from nintendo. (the most blatent wiimote copy ever)
> ...


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-Uncharted 2, Twisted Metal PS3, Timsplitters 4, MAG, GT5, FFXIII are TBA for this year (so they could come out but not confirmed)(also you have to see the difference between the physical year 2009 and the business year 2009, which means b.y. is physical already 2010 but in businessterms still 2009)
-Ratchet and Clank Future: A Crack in Time is an exclusive that is set for Q3 09 and Infamous just came out. I hate greedy people that want an exclusive like every 2 month. I rather wait until 2010 and know that I get some badass exclusives than force the guys who make the game to rush the game and make it shitty just so that it comes out in 09 (a german saying fits perfect here: Gut Ding braucht Weile. [Good Stuff takes Time])
-PS3 is in my eyes also 2x as good as the Xbox360. you will still need to pay an extra 50$ to play online at all. Microsoft totally rips people of on all the extras for the console. rechargeable battery pack need to be brought extra, wireless network adapter $$$, extra hard drive costs extra (I know that you can save music and other shit on an extern and access it from there but for savegames an games you brought online you will have to buy a specivic harddrive, in the ps3 you just pop in any 2.5 harddrive in, format it and your set) also if you buy the Elite its 399 against 499 for a PS3. also E3 isn't over yet. PS3 is a console for hardcore gamers for me. Wii is for casual gamers and 360 is for those people inbetween.
- How the fuck it is a rip off if the 2 work totally different? Also the PS3 thing was only a tech demo to show a bit what is possible for the future. Also nintendo rips peoples of by coming out with wii motion plus that you will have to pay extra just because they failed to get the controler right the first time.
-Quantity = Quallity. Yes Microsoft lost Bioshock to PS3. The first one was over a year 360 exclusive and 2 is straight out multi platform. Also its not like former PS3 exclusive didn't come out for the PS3. In todays economy its easier to make money by going multi. thats why most exclusives are "in house" productions. I rather have a few exclusives that are great and multis that are great and oprimised on the PS3 than something like wii where they release tons of shit and only a good few are actually good. And 3rd party exclusives are a matter of money and lets face it. Microdick is the bigger over all company but that shouldn't mean that they should have a "near-monopol" ala Apple about games. that would only lead to shitty games in the long run.
- Once again: Quantity = Quallity and: if you buy the elite its also just a 100$ difference and not 2x as much.
Rather 1 fix version than having 3 versions and confusing the customer and making him regret what he brought by making him buy all shit extra when he wants an update
-once again: Gut Ding braucht Weile.
-whoever wrote this has apsolutely no idea of the game business. Microdick will have to come out with a new console in order to keep up with Sony in terms of technic. Sonys consoles run on a 10 Years Life circle. Thats why PS2 is still supported.


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## Bound (Jun 2, 2009)

Elysian said:


> a bit of a lackluster presentation this whole sony e3 thing was....
> - most of the big titles are coming next year, what about the end of this year? MS got some nice exclusives the last 3 months of 2009
> - still no price cut (you can buy 2 xbox360's or 1 ps3....)
> - ripping things of from nintendo. (the most blatent wiimote copy ever)
> ...



I was a diehard sony fan until 360 came out.

Sony really messed this console up. Not to mention, no matter what they do with games PSN will never be able to compete with XBL. 

God of War was probably the only title which could've enticed me back to the sony camp, but with Dante's Inferno looking like the slayer of Olympus and GoW never coming out- my place is set with XB.


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## silentrage (Jun 2, 2009)

Fanboy arguements are so pointless, cuz all these consoles suck,
where's my dreamcast 2? or saturn 4?? fuckers.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Bound said:


> I was a diehard sony fan until 360 came out.
> 
> * Sony really messed this console up. Not to mention, no matter what they do with games PSN will never be able to compete with XBL. *
> 
> God of War was probably the only title which could've enticed me back to the sony camp, but with Dante's Inferno looking like the slayer of Olympus and GoW never coming out- my place is set with XB.



Can you explain this to me?
Tech wise the PS3 is the better one and PSN works great for me.
I only see complains but no reasoning for backing up that stuff.


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## Bound (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Can you explain this to me?
> Tech wise the PS3 is the better one and PSN works great for me.
> I only see complains but no reasoning for backing up that stuff.



I'm really not going to get in a console fanboi argument, cos I don't work for Microsoft I just know what works for me.

I am aware that the PS3 is technologically superior in certain areas, as do a great many people. 

I, though, like many don't have the 500 to throw down on a console. So the "a la carte" method of the Xbox works for me and a great many others. We buy what we need. I don't need the wireless cards (hardwire is better n e wayz, i always has teh host) and the 200g hd. The 20 works just find for me.

As far as PSN, I'm sure it works fine. But I'd actually like to play online games with people I know in the real world. Of all of my friends one has a PS. Needless to say he's playing XBL on his roomates Xbox with us most of the time, as I guess being a PS owner is lonely.

That's my logic. I'm not knocking PS, it's a fine console. I'm just saying MS did the console up so it works on many levels for many people.

But if you really think PS is far superior, just go play some XBL for like a month and see what you think. What harm can it do?


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Can you explain this to me?
> Tech wise the PS3 is the better one and PSN works great for me.
> I only see complains but no reasoning for backing up that stuff.



Is that why most games seem to be limited to a very jaggy 720p? You never addressed my post earlier about what makes the 360 superior, so I'm assuming you just couldn't argue it.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Bound said:


> I'm really not going to get in a console fanboi argument, cos I don't work for Microsoft I just know what works for me.
> 
> *I am aware that the PS3 is technologically superior in certain areas, as do a great many people.*
> 
> ...



Its better in any aspect in terms of technology.

Casual gamer is what thats called. You shouldn't forgot that the PS3 is not just a gaming console. its suppose to be used as a sort of media center for the whole living room (blue-ray for example).

If all your friend are jumping of a cliff you jump too don't you. 
I mean all the "cool kidz" do that.
No pier pressure.

And spend 300$ "justs to try it out". No way. Once again tell me whats makes it worth. I don't see the point in paying 50$ a year for online playing when I got that for free on PSN. With the games I play I have never problems to fiend folks to play online with.


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## Bound (Jun 2, 2009)

I vote we stop derailing the thread. I honestly don't care if you like Xbox or buy one or w/e. Like I said, I don't work for MS. I don't really need to sell you on anything. And you're fanboism certainly isn't going to make me run out and get a PS3.

The only thing that bothers me about what you say is if Xbox really is for amateurs, which console is the one with MLG support?

Back on topic.

I'd like to see the next years fight night support the Natal tech. That would be pretty sick.

I just though of obscene amounts of awesome with this, actually. Condemned 3: Punchin hobos.


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## PnKnG (Jun 2, 2009)

Well if you look at the lower right corner of the MLG site it says powered by MS and Bungie. Which basicly means these guys pay us so that we use their product and adverties it for them.
Also I never said it was for amateurs. thats you saying that. I said it for casual gamers. there is a difference between the 2 things.
Also I never said that the 360 is a bad console. But fact is PS3 is in terms of technolegy the superior console.
360 is just more apealing for the typ of gamer that is more or less a casual gamer but don't want to have a wii and want to have M rated games.
I brought a PS3 for myself because I think its better and I like the games on it more. Has more inovative games. Also I buy a console for myself and not for anybody else.


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## cyril v (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Well if you look at the lower right corner of the MLG site it says powered by MS and Bungie. Which basicly means these guys pay us so that we use their product and adverties it for them.
> Also I never said it was for amateurs. thats you saying that. I said it for casual gamers. there is a difference between the 2 things.
> Also I never said that the 360 is a bad console. But fact is PS3 is in terms of technolegy the superior console.
> 360 is just more apealing for the typ of gamer that is more or less a casual gamer but don't want to have a wii and want to have M rated games.
> I brought a PS3 for myself because I think its better and I like the games on it more. Has more inovative games. Also I buy a console for myself and not for anybody else.



dude, thats pretty funny becaue I have a ps3 and the only thing worthwhile to own on the console at the moment is MGS4 and Uncharted... maybe the first Resistance if you're stretching it. I've been waiting for the "Year of the PS3" since I got the console and so far the only worthwhile thing about it is the bluray player, and even then I can usually find the same movies and more either ondemand or on my 360.

PS3 is for the hardcore gamers? Really? What games did you play that made you come to this conclusion or are you just trying to justify your purchase? Rachet and Clank = hardcore


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## HammerAndSickle (Jun 2, 2009)

Allow me to take this moment to say I'm glad I'm no longer a gamer 

Since the wii launch games have just lost interest for me. Want to know the games I've played over the last year? Metroid Prime. Chrono Cross. Majora's Mask. Ocarina of Time. Mario 64. POKEMON STADIUM. Good games from a good time. Name ANYTHING from the last three years that matches up to those games in just having FUN. 

Cause I can't.


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## Metal Ken (Jun 2, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Hurray for none-original ideas.



Man, after reading 5 pages of your posts, i only have one suggestion:


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 2, 2009)

I would not buy that at all, I prefer sitting on my couch to play games. After a hard days work the last thing I want to do is more things involving effort.


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## troyguitar (Jun 2, 2009)

Why are "exclusives" a good thing? Less games available for each console can not be a good thing.

The prices of console stuff are what keep me playing PC games. I would like to get one of the newer Rock Band or Guitar Hero games, but there's no way I'm going to pay $500 minimum to do so.


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## Elysian (Jun 2, 2009)

cyril v said:


> dude, thats pretty funny becaue I have a ps3 and the only thing worthwhile to own on the console at the moment is MGS4 and Uncharted... maybe the first Resistance if you're stretching it. I've been waiting for the "Year of the PS3" since I got the console and so far the only worthwhile thing about it is the bluray player, and even then I can usually find the same movies and more either ondemand or on my 360.
> 
> PS3 is for the hardcore gamers? Really? What games did you play that made you come to this conclusion or are you just trying to justify your purchase? Rachet and Clank = hardcore



This is absolutely how one of my best friends feels. The only game he's played on his PS3 in the last year is the new one, inFamous, which is a kickass game, but sadly limited to 720p, so it doesn't look that great on his giant LCD. He plays his 360 constantly, in fact, I'm taking a break from playing COD4 with him right now. The only other thing he uses his ps3 for is bluray, and thats the main reason I'll purchase a second hand one.


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## silentrage (Jun 2, 2009)

Sony fucked up by making the ps3 a pain in the ass to program for, a mistake sega made with the saturn. 
Iron of the century in the making?


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Sony fucked up by making the ps3 a pain in the ass to program for, a mistake sega made with the saturn.
> Iron of the century in the making?



They thought they could get away with it since they did with the PS2.


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

I own both a PS3 and a 360 and I like them both. I don't see why fanboys have to be so one-sided. They are both great consoles. 



Elysian said:


> Is that why most games seem to be limited to a very jaggy 720p? You never addressed my post earlier about what makes the 360 superior, so I'm assuming you just couldn't argue it.



From someone inside the gaming industry, I can shine a little light on this. The PS3's CPUs are superior to the Xbox 360, but that's kind of irrelevant since no game publishers are using the PS3's CPUs to what they're capable of. The Xbox 360's GPU is superior to the PS3's and that is why the Xbox 360 is capable of better graphics. In fact, my company has made some games that the PS3 is not capable of running. The PS3 uses Blu Ray which is capable of carrying about 6 Xbox 360 DVDs worth of data on one disk. Overall, the Xbox 360 is NOT superior to the PS3. However, the 360's CPU is better and the main problem with the PS3 is that it is very very difficult to program for. The Xbox 360 on the other hand is very easy to program for. Although the Wii is the most technically inferior console out, that means that it is the cheapest to develop games for. They don't have to spend as much money on creating cinematics and so on as Sony and Microsoft have to (yes, the DS is cheaper to make games for, but I don't consider it a "console").



HammerAndSickle said:


> Allow me to take this moment to say I'm glad I'm no longer a gamer
> 
> Since the wii launch games have just lost interest for me. Want to know the games I've played over the last year? Metroid Prime. Chrono Cross. Majora's Mask. Ocarina of Time. Mario 64. POKEMON STADIUM. Good games from a good time. Name ANYTHING from the last three years that matches up to those games in just having FUN.
> 
> Cause I can't.



I could name at least 30 games from the last three years that match _or BEAT _those games in just having fun.

Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Grand Theft Auto 4, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, Resident Evil 5, Burnout Paradise, Unreal Tournament 3, and I could just keep going on. Hell, inFamous just came out last week and that game is fucking amazing.

You admitted that you don't play games anymore, so you really have no idea of all the amazing games coming out and that have already come out. I've been a pretty heavy gamer for over 20 years now and have owned 16 consoles by now.


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## silentrage (Jun 3, 2009)

Who do you work for? And is your company hiring artists?


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

It's a neat idea, but I'm worried that the hardware itself will fail to meet expectations - like someone said, it'll be a Wiimote or an EyeToy all over again. Also, while there are certain aspects of the software like facial recognition that seem neat, the lack of any tactile response means that the games you'd think it'd be good for, like fighting games, will probably suck.

I can say that I got a chance to try out the Wii MotionPlus add-on with the new Virtua Tennis game and it finally lets you do what the focus-group-approved retards are doing in all those Wii ads Figures that you'd have to pay extra just to do what was promised at release, but it's coming bundled with the new Wii Sports game so if you don't intend on buying that then you might as well sell your Wii right now.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Just some videos:

PS3:
IGN Video: Gran Turismo 5 PlayStation 3 Trailer - E3 2009: Sony Conference Trailer

IGN Video: MAG PlayStation 3 Press Conference - E3 09 Gameplay Demo

IGN Video: Heavy Rain PlayStation 3 Trailer - E3 2009: Trailer

PSP:
IGN Video: Metal Gear Solid: Peace Walker Sony PSP Trailer - E3 2009: Trailer

IGN Video: Gran Turismo PSP Sony PSP Trailer - E3 2009: Trailer
Release date is Oct. 1st this year. Pretty sure I'm going to grab a PSP-Go and this than.

PC:
IGN Video: Fallout 3 -- Point Lookout PC Games Trailer - E3 09 Trailer

IGN Video: Modern Warfare 2 PC Games Press Conference - E3 2009: Gameplay Demo

IGN Video: Left 4 Dead 2 PC Games Trailer - E3 2009: Keep Fighting Trailer

360:
IGN Video: Forza Motorsport 3 Xbox 360 Gameplay - E3 2009: Cockpit View (Off Screen)


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Who do you work for? And is your company hiring artists?



Yes, we are. Assuming you live in Tokyo and speak Japanese. 

(Don't think my company would like me announcing where I work on a public internet forum).

However, here's a video game company pretty close to where you live: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubisoft_Montreal


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Naren said:


> Yes, we are. Assuming you live in Tokyo and speak Japanese.
> 
> (Don't think my company would like me announcing where I work on a public internet forum).
> 
> However, here's a video game company pretty close to where you live: Ubisoft Montreal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I'm willing to move to Tokyo and learn japanese XD


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> I'm willing to move to Tokyo and learn japanese XD



It really should be the opposite order though (learn Japanese and then move to Tokyo).


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

Montreal is a long ways away from Sweden


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Montreal is a long ways away from Sweden



Pretty close to Toronto, though (to whom the comment was aimed at). And, Montreal is closer to Sweden than Tokyo is.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

ah you were quoting silentrage haha my bad


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Naren said:


> It really should be the opposite order though (learn Japanese and then move to Tokyo).



Well I only learned Swedish after my parents, my brother and me moved to Sweden. Got pretty decent within the first 6 month. After 2 year I really had no problem speaking it and everything from there has really only been fine tuning for me. I learn better through use than sitting in a school that tries to teach me and by the end I can basically only tell my name and and small stuff like that. I already have a rough outline of how honorifics work and know some single word or short phrases but know nothing about pronouncing.


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Well I only learned Swedish after my parents, my brother and me moved to Sweden. Got pretty decent within the first 6 month. After 2 year I really had no problem speaking it and everything from there has really only been fine tuning for me.



Japanese isn't as hard to speak as most people think, but learning to read and write will take you a lot longer than 2 years (unlike European languages).



PnKnG said:


> I already have a rough outline of how honorifics work and know some single word or short phrases but know nothing about pronouncing.



I'm not sure what you mean by having a rough understanding of how honorifics work. Do you mean you roughly know what terms like "-san" and "-sama" mean when added to a name or that you know how to use regular polite, honorific polite, and humble polite verb forms? Because I would think that both of those possibilities are impossible if you know nothing about pronouncing which is the most basic thing to learn first of all in any language.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Naren said:


> I own both a PS3 and a 360 and I like them both. I don't see why fanboys have to be so one-sided. They are both great consoles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As far as I'm aware they are both 3.2 GHz processor.
Difference is the processor itself. MS uses a tri-core Xenon while Sony uses a chip which is somewhat of a octa-core design (if you work in the gaming industry like you say you do, you understand what I mean). 
I hate how they bitch and moan about that PS3 is harder to develop for. Last generation everybody was basically all over Xbox having better graphics (well duh, the PS2 came out before the Xbox) and now that the PS3 was out before the 360 they bitch about it being to hard to do when they are just plain lazy. Of course its harder to do, its new technology. But they rather take the easy way and do it on the one thats easier to do on and than do shitty ports for PS3 that are not optimized for the PS3.


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> As far as I'm aware they are both 3.2 GHz processor.
> Difference is the processor itself. MS uses a tri-core Xenon while Sony uses a chip which is somewhat of a octa-core design (if you work in the gaming industry like you say you do, you understand what I mean).
> I hate how they bitch and moan about that PS3 is harder to develop for. Last generation everybody was basically all over Xbox having better graphics (well duh, the PS2 came out before the Xbox) and now that the PS3 was out before the 360 they bitch about it being to hard to do when they are just plain lazy. Of course its harder to do, its new technology. But they rather take the easy way and do it on the one thats easier to do on and than do shitty ports for PS3 that are not optimized for the PS3.



I hardly think a 3 year old console is still "new technology." They bitch and moan about it being hard to program because it IS hard to program for. If you think that it's just laziness, you try programming on a PS3. 

And, when they port a game from another console to the PS3, they have to basically reprogram the entire game just because of how different the 360 and PS3 are to program for.

Obviously the best choice is to go multiplatform because then you get the most sales. But if you do an exclusive, there are more Xbox 360 users than PS3 users, which would mean probably more sales on the 360.


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah, what Naren posted in regards to hardware specs is vastly oversimplified, but the point still stands - the increase in performance the PS3 is capable of with thorough optimisation isn't really worth the amount of time or money it takes to impliment. Sony figured it wouldn't matter because they dominated the marketplace and they were wrong. So what? It's a toy at the end of the day just like every other console and 90% of the library is identical to the 360.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Naren said:


> Japanese isn't as hard to speak as most people think, but learning to read and write will take you a lot longer than 2 years (unlike European languages).
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by having a rough understanding of how honorifics work. Do you mean you roughly know what terms like "-san" and "-sama" mean when added to a name or that you know how to use regular polite, honorific polite, and humble polite verb forms? Because I would think that both of those possibilities are impossible if you know nothing about pronouncing which is the most basic thing to learn first of all in any language.



Yeah I understand what you mean. Reading it is also the part that I think will be the hardest for me to learn. I know that you can read each kanji in a "european letter" way to. It reall more that know what kanji is pronounced how that I meant.

I meant that I have a basic understanding on when to use "-san", "-sama", "-sensei", "-chan" and "-kun". Like calling a teacher "-sensei".


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

so the PS3s CPU is superior and the 360s GPU is superior?


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Naren said:


> I hardly think a 3 year old console is still "new technology." They bitch and moan about it being hard to program because it IS hard to program for. If you think that it's just laziness, you try programming on a PS3.
> 
> And, when they port a game from another console to the PS3, they have to basically reprogram the entire game just because of how different the 360 and PS3 are to program for.
> 
> Obviously the best choice is to go multiplatform because then you get the most sales. But if you do an exclusive, there are more Xbox 360 users than PS3 users, which would mean probably more sales on the 360.



Sorry but I have to through this analogy/simplification out there.

Its basically the same with music.
If you want to make shitloads of money the easiest way to do so is to make simple pop music.
Shred take more skills but takes also more time and effort to learn.

I don't want to insult you or any other game programmer but is in a simplified way being lazy. Its new technology and it will take time to learn how to program for it. but unfortunately today is to much about money. so it easier to program on something where you know how it works instead of learning to program on something new.



Elysian said:


> Have you seen the in game Forza 3 stuff? Forza will also be out sooner, its going to be out in October, with over 400 cars, and over 100 individual tracks, as well as very detailed cockpit views, realistic damage, and even the ability to flip your car if you mess up too bad. Its really exciting to know its just around the corner. MS will have released Forza 2, and Forza 3, before Sony even finishes GT5. I truly hope GT5 is better than Prologue, because Prologue sucks. Hard.



Just rewatching the press conference from Sony from yesterday. GT for PSP alone will have 800 cars, 45 tracks and 60 variations of these tracks (makes 105 tracks total). Don't know if it will have damage through.
Makes me wonder what it will be for GT5. But GT5 should be most likely be out sometime next year. Its shouldered for TBA 2009. So at latest it should be next year.


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Yeah I understand what you mean. Reading it is also the part that I think will be the hardest for me to learn. I know that you can read each kanji in a "european letter" way to. It reall more that know what kanji is pronounced how that I meant.



I think you're confusing Chinese with Japanese. In general, Chinese only has one pronunciation per hanzi (although there are some hanzi with 2 pronunciations). In Japanese, however, there can be as many as 50 pronunciations for a kanji.

For example, &#29983; can be pronounced "sei," "shou," "ikiru," "ikeru," "ikasu," "ou," "ki," "haeru," "hayasu," "nama," "umareru," "umu," "naru," "nasu," "u," "asa," "ubu," "iki," and on and on and on and on. All those words come from the basic meaning of the kanji "to live"/"life," but they don't all mean that. You've got the words for "to birth," "to be born," "to live," "to grow," "raw," "fabric," and so on.

Kanji is kind of... complicated...



PnKnG said:


> I meant that I have a basic understanding on when to use "-san", "-sama", "-sensei", "-chan" and "-kun". Like calling a teacher "-sensei".



No offense, but I doubt that you do. Watching a Japanese animation is not going to teach you how to properly use those. An example of this would be the term "-sama." What situations would you use that for in real life?



PnKnG said:


> Sorry but I have to through this analogy/simplification out there.
> 
> Its basically the same with music.
> If you want to make shitloads of money the easiest way to do so is to make simple pop music.
> ...



Video games are not made for the sake of art. They are made to make money. Nobody makes games with a punk mentality (except for independent individuals whose games suck and aren't being sold in stores). 

All video game companies are in it for money. Some gamers don't want to admit it, but it's the reality.

Your comparison doesn't make sense because I could program something easier for the Xbox 360 that will look just as good as something that is very very difficult to program on the PS3. Would that be like the Xbox 360 being shredding on a normal high-end 6-string guitar and the PS3 be shredding on an 8-string guitar with the tunings changing randomly once every hour?  

You calling it "lazy" shows that you don't know what you're talking about. There is a reason why film makers use certain CGI software over others. Because some CGI software is very hard to use and you can find easier to use software that does the same thing. Your music analysis makes no sense.


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## Misanthropy (Jun 3, 2009)

: /


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Sorry but I have to through this analogy/simplification out there.
> 
> Its basically the same with music.
> If you want to make shitloads of money the easiest way to do so is to make simple pop music.
> ...



I'm not a fan of the PSP, I don't need/use portable gaming, even the portable games on my zune. The new PSP is also retarded in concept, no more UMD's, which screws the people who already bought games, and its a slide out, for what purpose? What exactly is the point of having it slide open? If it had a 2nd screen like the DS, then ok, but theres a reason the DS is owning the hell out of the PSP in sales.


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG, the act of porting a game to another platform is not some noble artistic pursuit, it's a means to an end. That's not to say that ease of use doesn't lead to worthless shovelware *cough*WII*cough* but at the same time the argument here is about optimisation more than anything else, which is where PS3 software generally struggles. On top of the fact that the PS3's Cell co-processor has something stupid like eight threaded cores to deal with, Sony's SDK is grossly inadequate in comparison to Microsoft's (and Nintendo's, for that matter) and plays just as big a part in the process. If the people manufacturing the damn thing can't tell you how to use it then what hope is there for anyone else? Oh well, according to Sony it has a fifteen-year life cycle or something anyway

Yeah, the PSP Go looks retarded. So, the screen slides out to protect the... analogue stick? The PSP's big dumb screen is the reason I don't actually take it anywhere. I do acknowledge that eliminating UMDs is a necessity, not only to stop the huge amounts of PSP piracy but because UMDs are slow, unwieldy battery hogs, but it's not like the PSP has enough games for me to want to buy them all again. Hell, if it wasn't for the ease of modification I wouldn't own one at all.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

DDDorian said:


> according to Sony it has a fifteen-year life cycle or something anyway



 I have a feeling they will be eating their words in half of that timeline.


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## Bound (Jun 3, 2009)

DDDorian said:


> the art of porting a game to another platform is not some noble artistic pursuit, it's a means to an end.



^^^^^ 

I was just gonna say:

How the hell can you compare music to video games. Music, which is one of mankinds most ancient practices, such a sacred art that goes back to our pre-history to making Playstation games. 

You can facepalm yourself right about now, PnKnG.

and this isn't to say that games, etc aren't devoid of art. But the software programming behind a console ins't the art. Something like the world of Rapture in Bioshock is art, not the system its running on.


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## yingmin (Jun 3, 2009)

I read this thread when there were only a couple replies, but didn't post right away. When I came back to it, it had exploded into arguments about practically everything BUT the new system, and now if I tried to comment on the actual topic of the thread, it would look out of place.

God bless the internet.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

@DDDorian
I guess you PSP is modified to have a bigger "harddrive".
PSP GO is mainly aimed to those who buy the games via the PSN Store and have music an videos on it.
All games will still also be able to be brought on UMD for those who have a PSP 3000 or any of the other, older models.

Also I realized that my choosing in the analogy tgat I used was a fail. It didn't came across like I wanted to. Its just hard to explain how I mean it. It basiclly lack of intrest from the developor (not the programmers, its the guys at the top who say what idea is going to be made into a game and which not) and their greed for money that makes them say that its to hard. If all would just choose to go to the one where its easier, we would not see any progress in technolegy and inovation on stuff. they would just stump out the same shit over and over again thats programmed after a pre made tampelet. I hate how peoples slam the PS3 when they say that its to hard to develope on. I have higher respect for those who actually take the challenge to program on the PS3.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> I have higher respect for those who actually take the challenge to program on the PS3.



you might, but I doubt Sony's investors do.

time = money.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> you might, but I doubt Sony's investors do.
> 
> time = money.



(time = money) = greedy peoples who only care about money and not about progress

I'm thankful I don't get shuffled with tons of crap-games like the Wii.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> (time = money) = greedy peoples who only care about money and not about progress



you just described investors.


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> @DDDorian
> I guess you PSP is modified to have a bigger "harddrive".
> PSP GO is mainly aimed to those who buy the games via the PSN Store and have music an videos on it.
> All games will still also be able to be brought on UMD for those who have a PSP 3000 or any of the other, older models.



That might be Sony's tagline, but the real reason is that making games available exclusively through digital distribution is the only way to make people actually pay for them. PSP hardware sales have risen steadily since release but the software (and those stupid UMD movies) sit in bargain bins everwhere, not least of all because UMDs are a colossal pain in the arse that forces people to modify their consoles just to get any enjoyment out of it. I think if Nintendo's next handheld went DD-only it might work because it has the game library to back it up, but the PSP has so little going for it aside from modding/homebrew capabilities that the PSP Go is ultimately doomed to failure.


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## silentrage (Jun 3, 2009)

^ I've never bought a game on my psp, I got it modded right when I bought it and just download games onto the HD, it's WAYYYYY easier to play this way. Not to mention all the emulated games you can play on it.



Naren said:


> Yes, we are. Assuming you live in Tokyo and speak Japanese.
> 
> (Don't think my company would like me announcing where I work on a public internet forum).
> 
> However, here's a video game company pretty close to where you live: Ubisoft Montreal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I think the vg industry in Canada is just fucked right now. About a year ago I could apply to a few companies and pick and choose based on offers I get, now I fucking send out portfolios and no one even bothers getting back to me. 

That's why I'm thinking of moving to work in Asia, but I'm thinking the economy will recover before I can learn proper japanese.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Called me a fanboy but I think the PSP already has some great games. DS is still at the same graphic level as the GBA or just slightly better while the PSP is pretty close to PS2 graphic. At least I'm not some bandwagon jumpings poser that only buys a console to "play with the cool kidz". Its something for my own personal enjoyment. I don't have to buy something just because everybody else does. I'm better than that.

And NATAL is fucking fail. Sony with its Eyetoy on the PS2 was the first of the big 3 that did such a thing. Nintendo than took the princip of controling a game with yourself as the controller and put its own spin on it. MS is just ripping both. What angers me the most is that when MS does it, its getting called inovative but when Sony came out with that the controller of the PS3 will support motion sensetive controlls they were getting called thiefs and that they just rip of Nintendo.
MS is like todays Gangsta Rap. Just takes from other and than calls it original and inovative when its not.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> MS is like todays Gangsta Rap. Just takes from other and than calls it original and inovative when its not.



another superb analogy


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> another superb analogy



F you SS. You already picked on me in the KSE thread a couple of days ago.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

oh come on dude I was only poking fun.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> Called me a fanboy but I think the PSP already has some great games. DS is still at the same graphic level as the GBA or just slightly better while the PSP is pretty close to PS2 graphic. At least I'm not some bandwagon jumpings poser that only buys a console to "play with the cool kidz". Its something for my own personal enjoyment. I don't have to buy something just because everybody else does. I'm better than that.
> 
> And NATAL is fucking fail. Sony with its Eyetoy on the PS2 was the first of the big 3 that did such a thing. Nintendo than took the princip of controling a game with yourself as the controller and put its own spin on it. MS is just ripping both. What angers me the most is that when MS does it, its getting called inovative but when Sony came out with that the controller of the PS3 will support motion sensetive controlls they were getting called thiefs and that they just rip of Nintendo.
> MS is like todays Gangsta Rap. Just takes from other and than calls it original and inovative when its not.


You bought your ps3 for all the wrong reasons if the main reason is its technical superiority, same with the psp. Game selection is the seller for me, not bandwagons, and not which one has the biggest fastest processor. Gran Turismo 4 was the last Playstation exclusive I bought, and the only one I want right now is inFamous. Gran Turismo 5 likely won't even compare with Forza, especially if they stick with no damage. Gran Turismo 4's handling is garbage compared to Forza 2, as is Gran Turismo 5 Prologues, so I'm really not that excited for GT5. Sony copied the wiimote concept nearly entirely. Microsoft took a technology that is no longer in use, improved upon it, and introduced some neat concepts that it could be used for, and you immediate throw out the unoriginal garbage. Next you're going to be complaining that MS copied the sony controller because it has 2 analog sticks, a d pad, 4 buttons, 2 bumpers, 2 triggers, a start and back button, and a button that controls the console 

edit: just watched the GT5 video, and looks like theres some damage, but overall, it looks like they tried to cram a 10lb shit in a 5lb bag. I've got a feeling its not going to live up to the hype(or the over 5 years of development).

Some 360 exlusives I'm looking forward to: Splinter Cell Conviction, Forza 3, Mass Effect 2, Left 4 Dead 2, Alan Wake, and Crackdown 2


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## silentrage (Jun 3, 2009)

Whether it's win, fail, a rip off, or innovative is not decided by arguments on intertubes forums, it's by sales. If it sells alot, it wins and is innovative, end of story. :/
Combining 2 good things into 1 is more innovative than doing the same old thing over and over, right?


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Elysian said:


> You bought your ps3 for all the wrong reasons if the main reason is its technical superiority, same with the psp. Game selection is the seller for me, not bandwagons, and not which one has the biggest fastest processor. Gran Turismo 4 was the last Playstation exclusive I bought, and the only one I want right now is inFamous. Gran Turismo 5 likely won't even compare with Forza, especially if they stick with no damage. Gran Turismo 4's handling is garbage compared to Forza 2, as is Gran Turismo 5 Prologues, so I'm really not that excited for GT5.* Sony copied the wiimote concept nearly entirely. Microsoft took a technology that is no longer in use, improved upon it, and introduced some neat concepts that it could be used for, and you immediate throw out the unoriginal garbage*. Next you're going to be complaining that MS copied the sony controller because it has 2 analog sticks, a d pad, 4 buttons, 2 bumpers, 2 triggers, a start and back button, and a button that controls the console



WTF! 
are you on drugs?
What Sony showed at the press conference was only a tech demo. also its 2 different technology's they work with. Nintendo uses IR lights that get send from the Sensor bar, registrated by the Wiimote and then send back. What Sony showed uses the PlayStation Eye and is more based on what is used during Motion captureing. A bit of a difference Sherlock.


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## silentrage (Jun 3, 2009)

^ But does it matter to the consumer? 
You can have a 11th dimensional quantum supernova blackhole neural fusion vector reactor powering your console, but if the experience sucks, then people won't give a shit HOW it's sucking. :/


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

F you all. It no use anyway. Everybody on this board is a MS fanboy anyway and is biased against Sony.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> WTF!
> are you on drugs?
> What Sony showed at the press conference was only a tech demo. also its 2 different technology's they work with. Nintendo uses IR lights that get send from the Sensor bar, registrated by the Wiimote and then send back. What Sony showed uses the PlayStation Eye and is more based on what is used during Motion captureing. A bit of a difference Sherlock.



I'm watching it right now on youtube, and this is horrible. You have to have a wiimote like device to use this piece of crap, its just not impressive. This is actually less impressive than the original wiimote. Pathetic Sony, just pathetic.


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

Exactly. The Natal isn't hugely improved hardware-wise over the EyeToy; the innovation will hopefully come from people like that shit-talker Molyneaux developing new and interesting ways to utilise it rather than the crap that the EyeToy got. I personally think it won't have a huge impact, mainly because people seem to hate the idea of actually having to stand and move and pay attention while gaming At the end of the day innovation doesn't mean shit if the games suck. Just ask Nintendo about the Virtual Boy.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> F you all. It no use anyway. Everybody on this board is a MS fanboy anyway and is biased against Sony.



I loved my PS2. That was a great console. The PSone was great as well, loved that one. My original Xbox was junk, I never got along with it, never felt anything for the games. It has nothing to do with being an MS fanboy, and everything to do with reality. You are more of a Sony fanboy than any "MS fanboy" in this thread. You're really grasping, all over the thread.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

Elysian said:


> I loved my PS2. That was a great console. It has nothing to do with being an MS fanboy, and everything to do with reality. You are more of a Sony fanboy than any "MS fanboy" in this thread. You're really grasping, all over the thread.



Thats because every time I say something in this thread I got shit throwing at me.


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> F you all. It no use anyway. Everybody on this board is a MS fanboy anyway and is biased against Sony.



No-one is biased, I don't think anyone aside from you even cares It's not 1993 anymore and Sega doesn't do what Nintendon't does scratch. People are judging the Natal and everything else brought up in this thread at face value, as far as I can tell. Consider this an official request to cool off, okay?



Elysian said:


> I'm watching it right now on youtube, and this is horrible. You have to have a wiimote like device to use this piece of crap, its just not impressive. This is actually less impressive than the original wiimote. Pathetic Sony, just pathetic.



I do kinda like the idea in that holding onto something, even just a Sixaxis or whatever, will make moving around feel more natural and "game-like" but surely they don't need to design some fancy wand just to do it?



PnKnG said:


> Thats because every time I say something in this thread I got shit throwing at me.



Don't take it so personally. No-one's attacking you, just the fact that you seem unwilling to discuss things without making excuses for Sony's choices. They're a big company, they don't need our help.


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## troyguitar (Jun 3, 2009)

A $500 console is fail no matter how good it is IMO. Now add a shit economy on top and it's epic fail.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> A $500 console is fail no matter how good it is IMO. Now add a shit economy on top and it's epic fail.



 Another reason if I do get a PS3, it'll be from craigslist. Same way I got my 360, only have 210 invested with all upgrades I've made.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

DDDorian said:


> No-one is biased, I don't think anyone aside from you even cares It's not 1993 anymore and Sega doesn't do what Nintendon't does scratch. People are judging the Natal and everything else brought up in this thread at face value, as far as I can tell. *Consider this an official request to cool off, okay?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah. and SS can pick at me and doesn't get a ban warning.

Its impossible to have a discussion if you don't have 2 people who think different.


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## troyguitar (Jun 3, 2009)

Elysian said:


> Another reason if I do get a PS3, it'll be from craigslist. Same way I got my 360, only have 210 invested with all upgrades I've made.



Yeah let some other sucker pay full price 

I might do that one of these days. I've been thinking getting Rock Band or one of the Guitar Hero games with the drum set might be a fun way to start trying to learn drums.


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## DDDorian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG, Scar Symmetry has been banned before. I don't need to be reminded about him, especially as I don't think he's said or done anything in this thread that I need to warn him about. You are taking this all way too seriously. Agree to disagree and move on with your life. Go play God Of War or something.


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## synrgy (Jun 3, 2009)

With your avatar being what it is D, I feel like you should shorten all those polite, well reasoned MOD responses into "Shoosh!!"


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> F you all. It no use anyway. Everybody on this board is a MS fanboy anyway and is biased against Sony.



Actually several of the people who have posted own PS3s.

I own both a PS3 and an Xbox 360 and at the moment I own roughly the same amount of PS3 and Xbox 360 games (maybe a few more 360 games just because there's more selection). 

I definitely don't regret buying my PS3. It functions as 3 consoles (a PS1, PS2, and PS3) and a Blu Ray Disc player (as well as playing DVDs of course). And having a high-definition movie player is an experience in itself.

I'm just saying things how they are. 

Some people are getting a little too heated in this argument and resorting to extremist remarks, but I think part of the problem is that you're ignoring the facts. 

And, just as a side remark, I played on my PS3 for about 3-4 hours today.


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## silentrage (Jun 3, 2009)

Yeah P, calm down dude, I'm a SEGA fanboy, but the only console I play now is a PSP.
This is not an organized smear campaign against sony.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

At least Sony can build a console that works right from the start and not goes suicidal after a couple of month. Also we know who picked the right format in terms of HD-DVD vs. Blue-Ray.
Next generation is most likely DD only.


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## synrgy (Jun 3, 2009)

You guys are being entirely too diplomatic.

Look at the thread title. Does it say PS3 anywhere in that title?

Internet troll is trolling. Call a spade a spade.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 3, 2009)

DDDorian said:


> PnKnG, Scar Symmetry has been banned before. I don't need to be reminded about him, especially as I don't think he's said or done anything in this thread that I need to warn him about. You are taking this all way too seriously. Agree to disagree and move on with your life. Go play God Of War or something.







PnKnG said:


> At least Sony can build a console that works right from the start and not goes suicidal after a couple of month. Also we know who picked the right format in terms of HD-DVD vs. Blue-Ray.
> Next generation is most likely DD only.



so 360 and Wii don't work from the start? you're being way too protective over Sony man I don't get it.


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## 220BX (Jun 3, 2009)

Pnkng are you a product of the n4g fanboy(goddamn i hated those assholes) bandwagon??? lol ..JK let ss.org be ss.org, man.. we have enough real music vs fake music threads ... we don't need to take that a notch lower with these shitty console wars...

that being said, i like to play games using controllers while sitting on the couch.. so yeah the whole no controller thing is not my cup of tea.. but that other demo they showed looked really nice .. project miles or whatever it was called looked great, provided it was not scripted.. 

BTW this e3 was pretty nice for both PS3 and the 360 .. looking forward to GOW 3 , trico(team ico project) , splinter cell , alan wake , uncharted 2(looks amazing) , crackdown 2 and a few more titles.


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## cyril v (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> At least Sony can build a console that works right from the start and not goes suicidal after a couple of month. Also we know who picked the right format in terms of HD-DVD vs. Blue-Ray.
> Next generation is most likely DD only.



honestly, bluray would make a whole lot more sense to use in a game console if it had faster read speeds. having a 50gb game seems awesome until you realize that you still have install parts of the game 5 seperate times, completely negating any advantage... though, i gotta say, for movies it is awesome; games? not so much.

anyways, 360 will be offering direct download games this fall.


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

220BX said:


> Pnkng are you a product of the n4g fanboy(goddamn i hated those assholes) bandwagon??? lol ..JK let ss.org be ss.org, man.. we have enough real music vs fake music threads ... we don't need to take that a notch lower with these shitty console wars...
> 
> that being said, i like to play games using controllers while sitting on the couch.. so yeah the whole no controller thing is not my cup of tea.. but that other demo they showed looked really nice .. project miles or whatever it was called looked great, provided it was not scripted..
> 
> BTW this e3 was pretty nice for both PS3 and the 360 .. looking forward to GOW 3 , *trico(team ico project)* , splinter cell , alan wake , uncharted 2(looks amazing) , crackdown 2 and a few more titles.



not to be a party pooper but if I'm not wrong the name is "The Last Guardian".

Also I don't even know what n4g stands for 



cyril v said:


> *honestly, bluray would make a whole lot more sense to use in a game console if it had faster read speeds. having a 50gb game seems awesome until you realize that you still have install parts of the game 5 seperate times, completely negating any advantage... though, i gotta say, for movies it is awesome; games? not so much.*
> 
> anyways, 360 will be offering direct download games this fall.



 You could have just said MGS4.
Also it relative to see. nearly no loading times in the game itself. also the ps3 was the cheapest blue-ray player on the marked when it came out.

So does Sony on some games


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## cyril v (Jun 3, 2009)

well, mandatory installs for any game is actually more or less the problem I was getting at... when you have 25-50gb discs, forcing you to install is a bit backwards IMO.


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## 220BX (Jun 3, 2009)

lol good then .. and don't even bother going there then..lol , it stands for news for gamers.. i used to visit that site to keep myself up to date with the gaming news .. but the assholes over there completely ruined it... just one look at their comments section and that's all you need to hate them... didn't bother checking out that site ever again!

OK so that's what trico's called... nice .. and thanks for mentioning that... can't wait to try this out!! SOTC was such an amazing experience!!


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## PnKnG (Jun 3, 2009)

220BX said:


> lol good then .. and don't even bother going there then..lol , it stands for news for gamers.. i used to visit that site to keep myself up to date with the gaming news .. but the assholes over there completely ruined it... just one look at their comments section and that's all you need to hate them... didn't bother checking out that site ever again!
> 
> OK so that's what trico's called... nice .. and thanks for mentioning that... can't wait to try this out!! SOTC was such an amazing experience!!



k. Only keep myself up to date via IGN. Listen to Podcast Beyond, GameScoop! and Command Prompt.

Yeah it look freaking amazing but not really my type of game


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## BigPhi84 (Jun 3, 2009)

joystiq.com is a great site for game news as well.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

PnKnG said:


> not to be a party pooper but if I'm not wrong the name is "The Last Guardian".
> 
> Also I don't even know what n4g stands for
> 
> ...


It still is the best value for a bluray player on the market, I will give it that. Like I said, if I get one, it'll be 2nd hand, so I can have an even better value, and I'll put whatever hard drive I want in it, and have even more value. I'm not against the PS3, but I feel that MS, this time around, has the superior product. If I've learned anything from the console wars, its that the most powerful system is virtually never the best. It was true when the NES was against the Sega Mega Drive, it was true with Genesis versus SNES, it was true with PSone vs 3DO vs N64 vs Jaguar, it was true Xbox vs PS2 vs Dreamcast, and its true still. Having the most powerful system doesn't mean much when developers don't want to mess with it, or use its full potential, especially with Sony, who has a history of making consoles that are hard to code for.


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## BigPhi84 (Jun 3, 2009)

Elysian said:


> It still is the best value for a bluray player on the market, I will give it that. Like I said, if I get one, it'll be 2nd hand, so I can have an even better value, and I'll put whatever hard drive I want in it, and have even more value. I'm not against the PS3, but I feel that MS, this time around, has the superior product. If I've learned anything from the console wars, its that the most powerful system is virtually never the best. It was true when the NES was against the Sega Mega Drive, it was true with Genesis versus SNES, it was true with PSone vs 3DO vs N64 vs Jaguar, it was true Xbox vs PS2 vs Dreamcast, and its true still. Having the most powerful system doesn't mean much when developers don't want to mess with it, or use its full potential, especially with Sony, who has a history of making consoles that are hard to code for.




I agree with everything you said, except for the Genesis vs. SNES. I thought the SNES was more powerful, sold better, and had better games? That's why it could pull off games like Donkey Kong Country, Starfox, etc?

I had a Genesis as a kid, though I yearned for a SNES. I still enjoy playing Super Mario World to this day. Thanks, Virtual Console!


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## synrgy (Jun 3, 2009)

BigPhi84 said:


> I had a Genesis as a kid, though I yearned for a SNES. I still enjoy playing Super Mario World to this day. Thanks, Virtual Console!



Thankfully, I had both. We were pretty poor, but I had my allowance priorities straight. 

Super Mario World is probably still my favorite of the whole series. Even including Mario 64, though that is a tough call..


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## cyril v (Jun 3, 2009)

BigPhi84 said:


> I agree with everything you said, except for the Genesis vs. SNES. I thought the SNES was more powerful, sold better, and had better games? That's why it could pull off games like Donkey Kong Country, Starfox, etc?
> 
> I had a Genesis as a kid, though I yearned for a SNES. I still enjoy playing Super Mario World to this day. Thanks, Virtual Console!



Theres that whole blast processing, fx-chip, sgi, 32x, sega cd thing... at the end of the day i'm still not sure which was more powerful.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

BigPhi84 said:


> I agree with everything you said, except for the Genesis vs. SNES. I thought the SNES was more powerful, sold better, and had better games? That's why it could pull off games like Donkey Kong Country, Starfox, etc?
> 
> I had a Genesis as a kid, though I yearned for a SNES. I still enjoy playing Super Mario World to this day. Thanks, Virtual Console!



The Genesis had a faster processor, though the SNES had a better video processor(able to display 256 colors, and Mode 7). Heres something I found about the Genesis through its Wiki



> Sega began 1992 with a number of advantages: a 55% to 45% market share over the Super NES, a lower price, and a tenfold advantage in number of games. Sega's advertising continued to position the Genesis as the "cooler" console,[32] and at one point in its campaign, it used the term "Blast Processing" to suggest that the processing capabilities of the Genesis were far greater than those of the SNES.[33][34] A Sony focus group found that teenage boys would not admit to owning a Super NES rather than a Genesis.[35] Neither console could maintain a definitive lead in market share for several years.
> 
> In Europe, the Mega Drive maintained support through 1998. It outsold all other consoles, including the Sega Saturn, in later years.[14] Brazil also saw success with the Mega Drive, where it held 75% of the market share.[14]



So the genesis not being the most powerful system didn't hold it back either.


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

Engadget's review of Natal.

Project Natal video hands-on, impressions, and further details



> The first demo that we played was a 3D breakout game, where the player is trying to bat a red ball (or in the case of this version, sometimes 10 red balls) toward a line of bricks at the end of a long (virtual) space. The body tracking is truly impressive -- according to Kudo, it's picking up 48 joint points on the human body. As soon as we stepped into line in front of the box, the avatar immediately took on our stance and movements. And we mean really took them on -- little gestures with our arms, the posture we had, front and back movements -- it completely tracked them with accuracy. We did notice a bit of stutter during some finer movements, but overall the effect was impressive (and more than a little eerie).
> 
> The second demo was actually just a hack of Burnout Paradise, and in some ways was more interesting than the ball swatting. Kudo and his team retrofitted the racing game to take advantage of the Natal, implementing a virtual wheel for steering, and a foot forward or back as the gas pedal. The effect was nothing short of amazing -- the first time we stepped in to play it was immediately natural (save for the part about having to imagine a wheel in your hands). Sure, we wrecked the hell out of a few cars, but it was striking how easy it was to pick up the feel for it. Kudo insinuated that it would be easy for developers to incorporate this tech into pre-existing games, and we have to say, the possibilities are exciting.
> 
> ...



Very interesting read.


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## BigPhi84 (Jun 3, 2009)

Interesting. I would have never guessed that the Genesis did that well.


BTW, Adam, what's the status on my order with you?


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

BigPhi84 said:


> Interesting. I would have never guessed that the Genesis did that well.
> 
> 
> BTW, Adam, what's the status on my order with you?



YGPM


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## Triple-J (Jun 3, 2009)

Elysian said:


> So the genesis not being the most powerful system didn't hold it back either.



That's a good point but let me explain something first.

The real reason Genesis/MegaDrive did so well in the UK/Europe is that they spent money on advertising that really drilled home the point that their console was an essential lifestyle product, Their ads made their product look cool and I cannot emphasise to you just how much of a constant presence on TV Sega were back then they literally ran ads during every single break on every channel everyday.

Sega also had no problem releasing games for their machines and in the UK we got releases within three to six months of them coming out in the US plus Sega didn't have a regional lockout on their games (they introduced it near the end of it's life in the UK so it was too late anyway) so you could play imports. 
In contrast Nintendo barely released anything at all back then and some games took well over a year from their initial US/Japanese release to get a UK/Euro release while some never got released at all but what really made this worse was that Nintendo had a regional lockout so you couldn't play imports. 

Price was also a factor as MegaDrive/Genesis games could be found for £20-£40 but SNES games were priced £40-£60 and even some of the NES games cost that much! 
Also Nintendo NEVER advertised their products at all back then and the only time they really made an effort was for the SNES launch and when StreetFighter was released, in comparison to Sega's all out media assault it was pathetic and you'd be forgiven for thinking Nintendo didn't even exist back then. 

The bottom line is that Nintendo have always treated UK/Euro gamers very badly and they still do, Sega realised this and took advantage of the situation which led to them winning the early to mid 90's console war in Europe.

As for the PSONE it sold a lot because it also broke a lot (just like the XB360) I know of several people who went through 4 to 5 PSONE machines due to the crap lasers and faults they had so I'm pretty confident that good portion of it's worldwide sales were just replacements for broken machines.
The other thing with the PSONE is that they sold because were easy to get chipped which meant that people would buy machines chip them and never buy games, hell even my local cornershop used to do PSONE copies and chip machines back then!


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## Elysian (Jun 3, 2009)

Triple-J said:


> As for the PSONE it sold a lot because it also broke a lot (just like the XB360) I know of several people who went through 4 to 5 PSONE machines due to the crap lasers and faults they had so I'm pretty confident that good portion of it's worldwide sales were just replacements for broken machines.
> The other thing with the PSONE is that they sold because were easy to get chipped which meant that people would buy machines chip them and never buy games, hell even my local cornershop used to do PSONE copies and chip machines back then!



Xbox 360 is easy to mod too  I've done probably 5-6 systems for my friends


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## HammerAndSickle (Jun 3, 2009)

Naren said:


> I could name at least 30 games from the last three years that match _or BEAT _those games in just having fun.
> 
> Fallout 3, Mass Effect, Grand Theft Auto 4, The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion, Resident Evil 5, Burnout Paradise, Unreal Tournament 3, and I could just keep going on. Hell, inFamous just came out last week and that game is fucking amazing.
> 
> You admitted that you don't play games anymore, so you really have no idea of all the amazing games coming out and that have already come out. I've been a pretty heavy gamer for over 20 years now and have owned 16 consoles by now.


I realize I'm late to the party, and of course "fun" and "quality" are subjective, but honestly from an OBjective standpoint I can't see how you compare any of those games to the classics I mentioned. Seriously? I've owned and played most of the consoles you have, and probably most of the games. Just because I'm not currently a gamer doesn't mean I've turned a blind eye to everything going on. My brother and ex-girlfriend are hardcore gamers . 

Fallout and Elder Scrolls suffered from being TOO BIG. Yes, I love a game that's epic in scope as much as anything else, but I swear to god you could never finish either of those games. I played Oblivion, I watched as my ex-girlfriend got addicted to fallout, and I never saw the point. You played the game to collect equipment which let you... do the same stuff but be stronger at it?  It was basically an MMO without... any of the things that make MMOs fun and not tedious. I have not played Mass Effect, so I will reserve judgement. But for classification purposes I believe it falls here.

Resident Evil never caught my attention. I can see how they're good games, with good stories, but "omg zombies" lost interest for me when I was 5. I like the psychological aspect, but I feel games like Eternal Darkness or Silent Hill will always kick any other game's ass in that department. Resident Evil's "scariness" came more from the shitty camera and controls fucking up your playing more than any actual gameplay element. By that logic Mario Sunshine's platformer sections were absolutely brutal 

I'm not here to argue the relative merits of people's opinions. But there used to be a fine line between "casual" games, and games you had to sit down and pay attention to. Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros, Goldeneye 64, those all (to me) fell in the category of "pick up once in a while for fun or when hanging with friends, ignore otherwise." You could play those games for literally five minutes and have a complete, discrete gameplay experience.

Then there are the more 'pay attention fucker!' games. Zelda and Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft and (mentioned above) Fallout or Oblivion. Yes, you could play those in ten-minute bursts if you wanted. But the whole experience was spread out over the tens of hours it took to complete it. These games are more art to me, there's story and character design and cohesive elements that produce a literary element. A game in this category can be a story as much as a movie or novel. But the gameplay must also be FUN. And this is where Oblivion and Fallout "fall short", in my eyes.

Games today try too hard to mix the two. You can have fun in Grand Theft Auto beating hookers for an hour (if you enjoy that) or you can sit down and engage in a long story which involves the criminal underworld and working your way up in it. My take on it is that it fails at both. 

Mario Kart is fun because it's crazy. You get the enjoyment of real "racing" with worrying about acceleration, the actual technique involved in the game, and where you place v. other drivers, but it's also just plain fun because out of nowhere you can get fucked by a giant turtle shell exploding in midair. Gran Turismo or Forza have decades-long campaigns involving placing in cups, gaining money for new cars and upgrades, and the "satisfaction" of getting that multimillion dollar Lamborghini, but in the end... you just drive. Not much to it.

That's my take on it anyway. As games have turned more into mainstream they've alienated what made them fun to begin with. Cartoony graphics, a gripping storyline, fun gameplay, and a sense of accomplishment.

Now it seems like work.


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## Groff (Jun 3, 2009)

I was quite impressed with the project Natal demos. I really liked how you can navigate through the dashboard (They showed someone browsing movies) which could come in handy, because I DO use my 360 a LOT for downloading HD movies, and sometimes I turn it on, and then hunt for the controller (which I misplace all the time). So being able to just move my arms around without a controller seems pretty cool. I'm pretty excited by this, they've taken Sony's eyetoy to the next level, just as Sony is improving on the idea of a Wiimote.

Fun stuff!



PnKnG said:


> Hurray for none-original ideas.



My favorite quote from the sony presenter at E3 about their motion sensing contoller "We're not copying anyone's ideas, we're making them better."

Hence the neat PS3 motion controller and Microsofts project Natal.

Motion sensing controllers aren't new, Nintendo didn't invent them. Apple didn't invent the MP3 player, Sony didn't invent the game console, and neither did nintendo or microsoft.

There isn't much out today that isn't a ripoff or improvement on something that came out before. Horray for progress. One of the first things I thought when I first got my Wii was "This is neat, I wonder what Sony or Microsoft could do with stuff like this with their hardware..." And good for the both of them for trying to do their own versions of the Wiimote and Eyetoy.





Triple-J said:


> As for the PSONE it sold a lot because it also broke a lot (just like the XB360) I know of several people who went through 4 to 5 PSONE machines due to the crap lasers and faults they had so I'm pretty confident that good portion of it's worldwide sales were just replacements for broken machines.
> The other thing with the PSONE is that they sold because were easy to get chipped which meant that people would buy machines chip them and never buy games, hell even my local cornershop used to do PSONE copies and chip machines back then!



 I went through two PSones and a PS2 (Never did get a replacement for it, as the PS3 was launching soon and I figured it would _always_ be back compatible... What a mistake that was haha)

But honestly it didn't bother me because both systems had great games. And yeah, PS1 machines were ridiculously easy to chip


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## Naren (Jun 3, 2009)

HammerAndSickle said:


> I realize I'm late to the party, and of course "fun" and "quality" are subjective, but honestly from an OBjective standpoint I can't see how you compare any of those games to the classics I mentioned. Seriously? I've owned and played most of the consoles you have, and probably most of the games. Just because I'm not currently a gamer doesn't mean I've turned a blind eye to everything going on. My brother and ex-girlfriend are hardcore gamers .
> 
> Fallout and Elder Scrolls suffered from being TOO BIG. Yes, I love a game that's epic in scope as much as anything else, but I swear to god you could never finish either of those games. I played Oblivion, I watched as my ex-girlfriend got addicted to fallout, and I never saw the point. You played the game to collect equipment which let you... do the same stuff but be stronger at it?  It was basically an MMO without... any of the things that make MMOs fun and not tedious. I have not played Mass Effect, so I will reserve judgement. But for classification purposes I believe it falls here.



I could not _possibly_ disagree with you more. You could not finish either of those games?  I've beaten Fallout 3 times, Fallout II twice, and Fallout III twice. I've beaten the Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind 3 times and the Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion 3 times. 

I HATE MMORPGs. I've played most of the popular MMORPGs and I haven't enjoyed any of them. Those games mentioned are good because they lack the tediousness that make MMORPGs suck.



HammerAndSickle said:


> I'm not here to argue the relative merits of people's opinions. But there used to be a fine line between "casual" games, and games you had to sit down and pay attention to. Mario Kart, Super Smash Bros, Goldeneye 64, those all (to me) fell in the category of "pick up once in a while for fun or when hanging with friends, ignore otherwise." You could play those games for literally five minutes and have a complete, discrete gameplay experience.



I owned Mario Kart (on the SNES and N64), Super Smash Bros (N64), and Goldeneye. I think they are all good games, but they are nowhere near as good as games like Fallout 1-3, Oblivion, or Morrowind (and, yes, this is opinionated).

I think we may be coming from different perspectives. Most of the Wii's games get boring to me pretty soon. I don't want a game that you can "pick up once in a while for or when hanging with friends, ignore otherwise." I want a game that grabs ahold of me and sucks me in, regardless of whether I'm playing alone or with friends. A game that you can ignore to me is not a good game. The fact that you can't ignore it is what shows how good it is. Of course, I couldn't ignore Goldeneye (until after I'd beaten it), so I consider it a good game.



HammerAndSickle said:


> Then there are the more 'pay attention fucker!' games. Zelda and Final Fantasy and World of Warcraft and (mentioned above) Fallout or Oblivion. Yes, you could play those in ten-minute bursts if you wanted. But the whole experience was spread out over the tens of hours it took to complete it.



Why the hell would you want to play a game for 10 minutes? If you're only gonna play for 10 minutes, you might as well not play at all.



HammerAndSickle said:


> Games today try too hard to mix the two. You can have fun in Grand Theft Auto beating hookers for an hour (if you enjoy that) or you can sit down and engage in a long story which involves the criminal underworld and working your way up in it. My take on it is that it fails at both.



And you are in the minority with that opinion.



HammerAndSickle said:


> Mario Kart is fun because it's crazy. You get the enjoyment of real "racing" with worrying about acceleration, the actual technique involved in the game, and where you place v. other drivers, but it's also just plain fun because out of nowhere you can get fucked by a giant turtle shell exploding in midair. Gran Turismo or Forza have decades-long campaigns involving placing in cups, gaining money for new cars and upgrades, and the "satisfaction" of getting that multimillion dollar Lamborghini, but in the end... you just drive. Not much to it.



See, that's personal taste. I also prefer Mario Kart to Forza (which I hate with a passon) and Gran Turismo (which I think is so-so), but that doesn't mean Mario Kart is intrinsically more fun. It's more fun TO ME, but I have friends who are obsessed with Forza, while I played that game for about 5-10 minutes and then just quit. 



HammerAndSickle said:


> That's my take on it anyway. As games have turned more into mainstream they've alienated what made them fun to begin with. Cartoony graphics, a gripping storyline, fun gameplay, and a sense of accomplishment.
> 
> Now it seems like work.



That is again 100% your personal taste. I would prefer gritty graphics over cartoony graphics, but that's my personal taste. And none of the games you mentioned had a "gripping storyline." They had fun gameplay, but no gripping storyline. And you can get a sense of accomplishment from any game. I really don't see how "cartoony graphics" are a good thing, though.

And what is this "turned more into mainstream" nonsense? Nintendo has always been and always will be the most mainstream gaming company out there (not that there's anything wrong with that). What is your idea of games becoming mainstream? The cartoony graphics were something common the SNES and N64 while at the same time, PC games generally did not have "cartoony" graphics.

I don't intend to change your taste in games (that's not possible), but you are stating a lot of this stuff as fact when it really isn't. It's like the old dude argument: "Music was good when I was a kid. Nowadays with all these noisy bands, they don't know what good music is!!"


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## HammerAndSickle (Jun 4, 2009)

I very well understand the logical fallacy, and in fact I alluded to it by saying this is all opinion. There's a lot of things where there's just no facts involved and all we can do is state our opinions: this is one of them. 

Part of argument is to state opinions as fact. If I ended every sentence with "... but this is just my opinion" not only would it get stale but it would lose all persuasive appeal 

I'm not as fancy with the quote button, so I'll just debate in the order in which they appear...

By "complete" I mean actually complete the game. I'm well aware that Oblivion, Fallout, Fable, GTA, etc's storylines can be completed in a matter of hours. But to DO everything there is to do in the game takes so much more. The very fact of simply EXPLORING Morrowind would take so much time as to be trivial. Maybe I'm just a perfectionist, but I'll use a game I recently played as an example. Zelda: Majora's Mask has that interesting 3-day time scheme. If you don't recognize the game, basically you have 3 in-game days (one hour=one minute, real time) before the moon crashes into the earth and everyone dies. So you need to travel back in time to get multiple things done, but when you travel back everything resets but you and the items/abilities you gained. That game can literally be completed in one 3-day cycle (there's an opening section before the timer starts and a postlude, but one full cycle of playtime), there's speedrun challenges for it. But there are so many sidequests that it realistically takes you a lot longer to play. The difference here is that a) they're fun, and inspire you to do the sidequests for the enjoyment of the game, and b) they're realistically attainable. I started playing the game off and on and today finished it. 100%, every mask, upgrade, and heart piece. From what I experienced playing it, Oblivion had way too many quests around the whole world and not enough incentive to do any of it. Fallout seemed similar. Yes, I could beat it, but not experience everything there is to do. And that puts me off.

I enjoy MMOs, or should I say used to. Everything that I hated about Oblivion was exemplefied in World of Warcraft, except there was an INCENTIVE to do these quests. How much pointless leveling, questing, and gear attaining did it take to reach endgame in WoW? When I stopped I had close to 17 days invested in it. Ridiculous. But it didn't feel like it, cause the quests were fun, and they all led up to the next level, or the next item, or getting geared enough for the next raid or dungeon. Plus the social aspect means that there's cooperation or competition among other players, so you feel like you're gaining status in a world unlike our own. Oblivion... I did a quest across the entire world and got 14 pieces of silver and a ham bone. Joy. 

My point about the "ten minute games" was to show their distinction with the more 'hardcore' games. I failed to see how goldeneye's single player was anything enjoyable at all. That game was 100% multiplayer, the campaign was just a way to unlock the stages and cheats without a Gameshark  I too like a game that's enjoyable alone or with friends, but I also like games that are pick up and go. Sometimes I don't want to sit for hours and play. Sometimes I have ten minutes before work and play Mario Kart DS. What's wrong with that?

The rest of it comes down to taste. I just want to clarify that by "mainstream" I meant that gaming as a whole has become more culturally acceptable to a wider audience than ever before, and that's not debatable. There was a time when there were the "jocks" who played sports and the "nerds" who played video games (after school special stereotypes ) and they didn't mix. I was a kid and I had a ton of friends on sports teams and not a single one owned a game console. Nowadays it seems like every family owns an xbox, or guitar hero. The same guys who play football every day go home and play Halo. People in the 18-30 demographic, who previously weren't targeted at ALL by gaming manufacturers, are now the primary target. Games are grittier, "darker," more "mature" (gore and titties makes a game mature?) because of that demographic. Sports games are now "street", grand theft auto a game about gang life is topping charts, and it's all due to the industry's paradigm shift. 

I personally of am the OPINION that games were better before that shift. When the games were targeted to kids, but had enough merit for adults. When Zelda could be played when I was 10, then I go back close to ten years later and see a whole new philosophical side to it. It's similar with movies: if you've seen Up you'll know what I'm on about. E for Everyone really means it has something to offer at every level.


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## Naren (Jun 4, 2009)

I'm not going to address all of the issues just because I know you wouldn't agree regardless of what I say.



HammerAndSickle said:


> By "complete" I mean actually complete the game. I'm well aware that Oblivion, Fallout, Fable, GTA, etc's storylines can be completed in a matter of hours. But to DO everything there is to do in the game takes so much more. The very fact of simply EXPLORING Morrowind would take so much time as to be trivial. Maybe I'm just a perfectionist, but I'll use a game I recently played as an example. Zelda: Majora's Mask has that interesting 3-day time scheme. If you don't recognize the game, basically you have 3 in-game days (one hour=one minute, real time) before the moon crashes into the earth and everyone dies. So you need to travel back in time to get multiple things done, but when you travel back everything resets but you and the items/abilities you gained. That game can literally be completed in one 3-day cycle (there's an opening section before the timer starts and a postlude, but one full cycle of playtime), there's speedrun challenges for it. But there are so many sidequests that it realistically takes you a lot longer to play. The difference here is that a) they're fun, and inspire you to do the sidequests for the enjoyment of the game, and b) they're realistically attainable. I started playing the game off and on and today finished it. 100%, every mask, upgrade, and heart piece. From what I experienced playing it, Oblivion had way too many quests around the whole world and not enough incentive to do any of it. Fallout seemed similar. Yes, I could beat it, but not experience everything there is to do. And that puts me off.



Majora's Mask is an adventure game and Oblivion/Fallout are RPGs. They are not supposed to take the same amount of time to beat.

Your desire to beat every single side quest in Oblivion is evidence that you didn't understand what they were trying to do. The point of the Elder Scrolls games is to make a massive world with ridiculous amounts of freedom where you can become a thief, assassin, vampire, werewolf, slave catcher, witch hunter, or whatever. Some people want to be told what to do and don't want that freedom. The world of the Elder Scrolls games is NOT for those people. You are not supposed to be able to beat all the side quests in an Elder Scrolls game. You are not supposed to transverse every square feet of land in one of those games. Bethesda tries to create their own reality. They took this a little too far to the extreme in the Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall which has over 15,000 cities and towns, over 750,000 NPCs, and the land of the entire world covering 62,400 square miles. Daggerfall was a great game for the time (1996), but they scaled it down for the next game in the series: Morrowind. Morrowind, although still ridiculously huge, is only 0.01% the size of Daggerfall.

Oblivion, for example, gives you tons of hours of play with just doing the main quest, fighters guild, mages guild, thieves guild, dark brotherhood, Knights of the Nine, and Shivering Isles. There is no real need to go around helping farmers defeat ghosts in caverns near their farms... although you have that option and it adds to the realism and massiveness of the world (real in that it is a living world).

Those games are clearly not for you. They have been my favorite kind of game for almost 20 years now. The Quest for Glory series has been around since 1989 and it also follows the freedom style of series like Fallout and Elder Scrolls, although in an action-RPG style.



HammerAndSickle said:


> I enjoy MMOs, or should I say used to. Everything that I hated about Oblivion was exemplefied in World of Warcraft, except there was an INCENTIVE to do these quests. How much pointless leveling, questing, and gear attaining did it take to reach endgame in WoW? When I stopped I had close to 17 days invested in it. Ridiculous. But it didn't feel like it, cause the quests were fun, and they all led up to the next level, or the next item, or getting geared enough for the next raid or dungeon. Plus the social aspect means that there's cooperation or competition among other players, so you feel like you're gaining status in a world unlike our own. Oblivion... I did a quest across the entire world and got 14 pieces of silver and a ham bone. Joy.



One of the differences is that the Oblivion quest is optional and only takes 20-30 minutes to beat. The MMORPG takes endless hours and oftentimes consists of grinding.

I seriously cannot imagine why anyone would want to waste their time on an MMORPG, but they are quite popular and I'm sure the people enjoying those games don't think they are wasting their time.



HammerAndSickle said:


> My point about the "ten minute games" was to show their distinction with the more 'hardcore' games. I failed to see how goldeneye's single player was anything enjoyable at all. That game was 100% multiplayer, the campaign was just a way to unlock the stages and cheats without a Gameshark  I too like a game that's enjoyable alone or with friends, but I also like games that are pick up and go. Sometimes I don't want to sit for hours and play. Sometimes I have ten minutes before work and play Mario Kart DS. What's wrong with that?



I actually enjoyed Goldeneye's single player more than the multiplayer, although I played it multiplayer all the time at my friend's house. Then again, I've never been a fan of multiplayer games.

I won't say there's anything wrong with that, but it's not enjoyable at all for me.



HammerAndSickle said:


> The rest of it comes down to taste. I just want to clarify that by "mainstream" I meant that gaming as a whole has become more culturally acceptable to a wider audience than ever before, and that's not debatable. There was a time when there were the "jocks" who played sports and the "nerds" who played video games (after school special stereotypes ) and they didn't mix. I was a kid and I had a ton of friends on sports teams and not a single one owned a game console. Nowadays it seems like every family owns an xbox, or guitar hero. The same guys who play football every day go home and play Halo. People in the 18-30 demographic, who previously weren't targeted at ALL by gaming manufacturers, are now the primary target. Games are grittier, "darker," more "mature" (gore and titties makes a game mature?) because of that demographic. Sports games are now "street", grand theft auto a game about gang life is topping charts, and it's all due to the industry's paradigm shift.



This entire part of your post just shows that you don't know much about the history of games or games in general.

Games are more grittier, darker, and more mature than when? Then what? If you mean than on the Nintendo Entertainment System, the Super Nintendo Entertainment System, and the N64, well, yeah. Nintendo was and still is very very against those kinds of games. If you mean in general, then I guess you never played PC games (or PS1 games). Back in 1995, 1996, 1997, most of the PC games I owned were rated Mature, often very gory, very dark, and contained lots of mature elements. I remember games rated Mature from as early as 1992. Granted, I don't recall seeing a Mature game on a console until the PS1 came out.

Sports games are "street"? When the hell weren't they street? I can remember a lot of ghetto basketball games on the NES. I used to own a ton of baseball games on the NES (which weren't "street" then and aren't "street" now). 

And in addition to the PC angle, the Grand Theft Auto series has been around since 1997 and the first two games were PC games that were ported to the PS1 and Game Boy Color.

Games as a whole are still aimed at the same audience. It's just that that audience has grown bigger. 



HammerAndSickle said:


> I personally of am the OPINION that games were better before that shift. When the games were targeted to kids, but had enough merit for adults. When Zelda could be played when I was 10, then I go back close to ten years later and see a whole new philosophical side to it. It's similar with movies: if you've seen Up you'll know what I'm on about. E for Everyone really means it has something to offer at every level.



And I'm of the OPINION that you couldn't be more wrong.


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## silentrage (Jun 4, 2009)

Boy this thread turned into a sausage party pretty fast/


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## SupaCoolMan2005 (Jun 12, 2009)

I always love hearing Sony lovers and MS arguments..i love both systems im looking forward to the last guardian..mag of course and GoW from the ps3 as much as any game thats to come out on the 360 they are both great consoles..its just a competition between them all to see who can out do each other wii did the motion sensor stuff so the MS say oh yah well we will make our consolo have games that only use body movment recognition.. its a nasty war its just one ups manship..all three consolos have their flaws and their ups..its diffrent stroke for diffrent folks..so i think the argument of pointing out console flaws is useless IMO


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## Trespass (Jun 15, 2009)

I'm only here to mention that my heavily modded Morrowind has kept me busy forever. I craft entire storylines based on player made expansions and overhauls. Graphic overhauls get fairly close to OB, and we even have LOD mods, and a script extender etc.

I have Oblivion, I have it modded quite crazily as well, yet it still doesn't hit home like Morrowind


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## leandroab (Jun 23, 2009)

This is a REALLY cool idea, not so inovative, but really interesting....

But just think about it for a minute. Imagine playing something like COD4 using it, or Mortal kombat or something... And this GIF image sums the comparison related to the teaser video (digital) and the E3 demonstration (real life):



(ignore WII comment)


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## ralphy1976 (Jun 23, 2009)

sorry...but i have to say this (and i know i am going to offend a few)... G.A.Y!!! period!!


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## silentrage (Jun 23, 2009)

I think the idea is only good on paper, I used to go to these huge arcades here called Playdium, and they had a 3D Street Fighter Ex game where you play with motion sensor. It looks like fun but people are too insecure to make themselves look stupid in public. Maybe it'll do better at home? Who knows.


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## lucasreis (Jun 30, 2009)

The idea of Natal is cool and I think it´s a Win situation but I don´t think it will replace the traditional ways of gaming. It will be like 8 string guitars, niche stuff, lol.


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## ADAMAKAGORE (Jun 30, 2009)

I don´t plan on playing gears of war and get cover on a couch when I play gears of war 2...
Worst then Project Natal is the new Tony Hawk game...


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## synrgy (Jun 30, 2009)

I get what you guys are saying as far as our generation is concerned, but I think that if the technology gets enough support early on from developers, kids are going to eat this shit up just like they did the Wii.

I mean, most of us 'old school' gamers figured the Wii was gonna flop. Shows what we know.


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## Xaios (Jul 2, 2009)

synrgy said:


> I mean, most of us 'old school' gamers figured the Wii was gonna flop. Shows what we know.



Yeah, I was in that boat too. And I thought PSP was gonna knock the socks off Nintendo DS. Just goes to show, it's the games and not the hardware that makes a console great.


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