# To pinky or not to pinky: that is the problem



## OmegaSlayer (Apr 23, 2014)

Ok, I want to discuss the use of the left hand pinky.

I always studied with the kind of "classic"/jazz fingering, where in a 6 frets space you use the index finger for the 1st and 2nd frets, middle finger for the 3rd fret, ring finger for the 4th fret and pinky for 5th and 6th fret.
I'm self thaught, so this was quite the natural thing to do.
Obviously I had other stretches for higher frets but that's not the point.
Lately I approached jazz theory and and finger and I got the explanation that this finger position gives you 2 octaves in a simple position, which is very handy.
So, what my hands felt natural got a theoric explaination.
I've always played in this position, from 1st fret to the last one.

Now, I started to take a look with different eyes, more curious eyes, shall I say, at some instructional video and I saw loads of people keeping the use of the pinky to the very minimum, going for stretches with the first 3 fingers.
Now, I clearly rememember Slash in the G'N'R videos playing that way when I was a teen, and knowing Slash as a non hyper technical musician, I consider that playing a "casual" style 
From then I saw loads of guitarists playing that way but stuck playing with my dear usual fingering.

So lately I decided to try to play the other way and lo! I realized I sucked.
My fingers don't have the speed, strength (for hammer-ons and pull-offs since the hand is in a more angled position) and coordination to play that way like I play with my comfort fingering, STILL I realized the advantages of playing in the other way.
I also realized that many patterns I found very difficult to play with my usual fingering should be easier this other way.
So now I went back to noob zone, picked a metronome and started to study h-w, w-h and w-w intervals (and patterns) again using index, middle and ring fingers trying to get coordination and speed.
Mind you that I love taking down my playstyle and rebuild it in a hopefully better and more complete way, so this gives me lots of joy ^__^


How do you "finger" your fretboard?
The "classical jazz" way.
The "casual" way limiting the use of pinky.
Both. Depend on the situation.

Why?


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## Maniacal (Apr 23, 2014)

I always use my little finger, I have no idea why anyone wouldn't


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## Mik3D23 (Apr 23, 2014)

I never really gave it too much thought. I always just kind of did what felt natural. I use my pinky quite often, though


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## OmegaSlayer (Apr 23, 2014)

Maniacal said:


> I always use my little finger, I have no idea why anyone wouldn't



Yeah, I saw that in your vids.
But was checking some Andy James licks on youtube and he rarely if never use his pinky and the guy can surely shred.
He's the first that comes to my mind but not the only one.



Mik3D23 said:


> I never really gave it too much thought. I always just kind of did what felt natural. I use my pinky quite often, though


Me neither and I felt totally natural about what I did.
Then the  was: if others people do it the other way it's not because they're idiots and they actually play better than me sooooo... lemme try

Look at this YJM vid, he plays every 2 whole tone fingering without using the pinky.
For me it has always been unnatural, but again, I'm not the genie of the guitar, and if there's something to learn, why not give it a try.


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## Maniacal (Apr 23, 2014)

Andy James tends to stick to the traditional 2 and 3 note per string stuff. I spent most of my time working on 4 note per string playing and wide interval 3 note per string playing. 

You can get away with 3, but it really depends what you want to play.


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## Bodes (Apr 23, 2014)

You gotta look at where you have come from and where you are going to find the "best" fingering for the passage.

E.g. Sometimes doing a 4-6-8 stretch will get you to the next note/chord faster/cleaner/more efficiently. Sometimes doing a 4-6-3(next string) will work better without using your pinky...


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## 80H (Apr 23, 2014)

They're all boxes people put themselves in. There are different ways to orient yourself, and they produce different results. 1 finger per fret, 3 finger joe, a variety of 5/6/7/8+ fret orientations (depends on your hand size and distance between frets), compressed orientations for chords or finger substitutions (changing fingers while maintaining sustain, extremely useful for fingerstyle counterpoint or really counterpoint with the guitar in general), pivoting, free form, and there's probably more that I either can't think of or haven't learned yet. 



In other words, you're asking a loaded question. There is no right answer in this situation until we put a guitar in someone's hands and find out what sounds they want to make with it. At that point, it becomes a matter of them figuring out how to communicate those sounds through the instrument. This is why we learn our musician's ABCs and indoctrinate everyone with a "practice, practice, practice" mentality asap. 



Your pinky will suck if you don't use it, and the other 3 fingers will get better. Your body is built to adapt, or you would always be the same as you were on day 1. Wouldn't that suck? The gap will increase, and eventually, the pinky will be entirely outclassed by the other 3 fingers. Some guys are ok with that. I personally can't imagine missing 25% of my available finger allotment just because it took work to get my pinky to a respectable fluidity. 


However, stopping yourself from using your pinky is also a great way to think outside of the box and grow through limitation. During my heavy training sessions (when health/time permit), I tie my fingers in groups using elastic hair ties in order to force my fingers to work harder through limitation. I isolate them into groups: first, I will tie fingers 1 and 2, then 1 and 3, then 1 and 4 (1 being index and 4 being pinky). Then 2 and 3, 2 and 4. Then 3 and 4. Then I isolate each finger by tying the other 3 and forcing it to make sounds on it's own. I also do this spontaneously during the week just because it helps me see more possibilities while conditioning my fingers to be more independent of each other. It's a vicious workout though...even after doing it for the last few years (don't remember when exactly I started).


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## asher (Apr 23, 2014)

If I need it when I learn a riff or something, I'll try to force myself to use it. Some things are just easier without. Mine tends to fly and doesn't have great strength so when it comes to improv leads I basically forget it's there...


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## OmegaSlayer (Apr 24, 2014)

80H said:


> They're all boxes people put themselves in. There are different ways to orient yourself, and they produce different results. 1 finger per fret, 3 finger joe, a variety of 5/6/7/8+ fret orientations (depends on your hand size and distance between frets), compressed orientations for chords or finger substitutions (changing fingers while maintaining sustain, extremely useful for fingerstyle counterpoint or really counterpoint with the guitar in general), pivoting, free form, and there's probably more that I either can't think of or haven't learned yet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First thing first...I'm not searching for the "right way to finger", it's just a curiosity, and that's why I put a poll.
A very free discussion, just like "how do you wash your car"
Even from simple discussions there's always something to learn.

You cover most of the points, especially about being with 25% less of the finger.

I think one of the major points is that, no matter how people practices, fingers are going to develop unevenly.
Some people will have lesser discrepancies between one finger and another, some bigger, but no one will have the same speed and same strength in all fingers, even if simply for mechanical reasons, because our fingers have different lengths, different joints displacement through the length and so on.

Last thing...how do you tie your hands?
Pics eventually?
Do you mind if I borrow your idea?


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## TRENCHLORD (Apr 24, 2014)

If you really want to build the pinky, practice trilling with it from all the other finger-plants.

Trill between first and pinky, middle and pinky, and ring and pinky.

Of course you also want to incorporate it in hammer and pull sequences as well.

Using the pinky to fret a picked note is about the easiest way to use it.

The good thing doing this is that you'll no longer have to do a position shift just to hit a specific trill/flutter or hammer/pull.


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## OmegaSlayer (Apr 24, 2014)

TRENCHLORD said:


> If you really want to build the pinky, practice trilling with it from all the other finger-plants.
> 
> Trill between first and pinky, middle and pinky, and ring and pinky.
> 
> ...



I DO use my pinky and the point is that playing with different fingerings I realized
that my ring finger is the real weak spot.
There's always room to increase my pinky too, but yeah, I will surely practice the exercise and songs in both ways from now on.

Was forgetting to reply to this


Maniacal said:


> Andy James tends to stick to the traditional 2 and 3 note per string stuff. I spent most of my time working on 4 note per string playing and wide interval 3 note per string playing.
> 
> You can get away with 3, but it really depends what you want to play.


I want to play.
I don't want to be limited, I want to learn stuff, I want to be flexible.
I want my hands to be able to do what my head thinks.
Which is insanely ambitious and pretentious, and almost impossible, because as hands progresses, the head has moved on too.
So, it's a fun run because I will never feel satisfied with my playing. LOL


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## 80H (Apr 24, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> First thing first...I'm not searching for the "right way to finger", it's just a curiosity, and that's why I put a poll.
> A very free discussion, just like "how do you wash your car"
> Even from simple discussions there's always something to learn.
> 
> ...



I've had to deal with this subject pretty intensely myself because I was taught initially that anything other than 1 finger per fret was the devil and I'd be laughed off stage if I wasn't compliant. I have seen a 45 yr old guitar teacher that handles his 7 and 8 fret stretches without his pinky (it looked so ugly though). I have seen a man with his middle finger partially amputated using a slide...but not his pinky  I get that everybody has options, but it's the fundamental principles behind those options that interest me...so I end up talking forever on the subject even if it doesn't necessarily fit with the thread's subject  It isn't that I like or dislike either, I just want to fully understand and be able to communicate why people perform in a certain way and what the fundamentals are that make their approach viable. 


As for the finger ties, I use the same small elastic bands that I tie back my hair with to isolate fingers into groups. I can provide pictures shortly, but you'll have to bear with me as I only have a 2009 iPhone 3 and it does this weird thing where the camera closing james-bond looking thing closes when I take a picture and then just freezes up... Looks pretty new on the outside still though  Got a free tablet from a friend for helping him move yesterday though, so that might be an option after I look it over and see what the quality is like. Apparently it runs android 4.2 though so it's decent (?)


Basically what I'm doing when I tie my fingers is just getting the tie tight enough around a group of fingers to ruin my sense of comfort and force me out of routine autopilot mode. They need to have their range of motion reduced but without being physically uncomfortable or too tightly held to cut off circulation or dramatically affect the flexibility of the free fingers. The inside of the tie will prevent the restricted fingers from returning to a typical position with the isolated fingers. If you were isolating your index and pinky fingers, the middle 2 would simply be tied together. If you were isolating your middle and ring fingers, the pinky and index would be tied behind the line of the knuckle and the isolated fingers would be pushed slightly forward by the outer edge of the elastic. 

I have a variety of drills that I run, which typically start with your standard 1-2-3-4 calibration-style drills. That is most often the warm up, but if I'm having an ADHD kind of day then I don't even bother with that and just fiddle for a bit with the isolated fingers as my warm up. 


After that, I focus more on using them musically and trying to play what I can normally play with all 4 fingers, except with 1, 2 or 3. I do this maybe once or twice a week tops because it is very intensive, as it works muscle groups that normally are supported by other muscle groups. 



All of this stuff will be part of a larger project that I'm working on that's going way slower than we'd initially planned, but it's still moving forward comfortably and will be ready when it's ready


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## OmegaSlayer (Apr 24, 2014)

80H said:


> I've had to deal with this subject pretty intensely myself because I was taught initially that anything other than 1 finger per fret was the devil and I'd be laughed off stage if I wasn't compliant. I have seen a 45 yr old guitar teacher that handles his 7 and 8 fret stretches without his pinky (it looked so ugly though). I have seen a man with his middle finger partially amputated using a slide...but not his pinky  I get that everybody has options, but it's the fundamental principles behind those options that interest me...so I end up talking forever on the subject even if it doesn't necessarily fit with the thread's subject  It isn't that I like or dislike either, I just want to fully understand and be able to communicate why people perform in a certain way and what the fundamentals are that make their approach viable.
> 
> 
> As for the finger ties, I use the same small elastic bands that I tie back my hair with to isolate fingers into groups. I can provide pictures shortly, but you'll have to bear with me as I only have a 2009 iPhone 3 and it does this weird thing where the camera closing james-bond looking thing closes when I take a picture and then just freezes up... Looks pretty new on the outside still though  Got a free tablet from a friend for helping him move yesterday though, so that might be an option after I look it over and see what the quality is like. Apparently it runs android 4.2 though so it's decent (?)
> ...



Love your stance about the fingering thing, mostly because it's like I see things.
There are multiple ways to do things, mostly because of personal comfort, but taking the patience to leave the comfort zone is what pays off and lift the barriers everyone keeps hitting.

I'm ok with your pics since I have an iPod 4th gen that is basically an iPhone 3 without phone functionality, so I know exactly what happens 

I love "unconventional" exercises, I remember Ritchie Kotzen mentioning he kept stretching and torturing his fingers when he was a teen LOL
Mostly they work


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## Pat_tct (Apr 24, 2014)

i use my pinky a lot tbh.
my middle finger is my weakest. index, ring and pinky are doing most of the work^^


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## 80H (Apr 24, 2014)

OmegaSlayer said:


> Love your stance about the fingering thing, mostly because it's like I see things.
> There are multiple ways to do things, mostly because of personal comfort, but taking the patience to leave the comfort zone is what pays off and lift the barriers everyone keeps hitting.
> 
> I'm ok with your pics since I have an iPod 4th gen that is basically an iPhone 3 without phone functionality, so I know exactly what happens
> ...




Bahaha  I stretch my fingers everywhere...the DMV, the grocery store lines...whatever. It's my default ticket out of boredom, and it keeps me limber. Got that idea from _The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People_ when Stephen Covey goes over being proactive. I also use the heat from my coffee mugs to develop the range of my calluses faster. It's the little things, I swear!


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## Kullerbytta (Apr 24, 2014)

The first two years of playing guitar I din't use my pinky at all... It came naturally when I was learning Plug in Baby by Muse.
I guess I never thought of using the pinky as an option before that  

Now I use it whenever it would otherwise require me to stretch my other three fingers to reach a certain note. 
Makes me less clumsy, faster and more accurate when I'm playing.


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## Yo_Wattup (Apr 24, 2014)

I honestly use my pinky more than my ring finger... Not even lying bro


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## starslight (Apr 24, 2014)

Yo_Wattup said:


> I honestly use my pinky more than my ring finger... Not even lying bro



Me too, especially since I've played bass almost exclusively for over a year now. I've adapted a fingering system from Carol Kaye where I'm not using the third finger at all within the first five frets and am making extensive use of pivots all over the fretboard, which I can't recall ever consciously doing in ten years of guitar playing. As a dude with small hands, this has been a complete revelation. 

I had horrible left-hand technique when I was playing guitar. My wrist was always bent at an extreme angle when doing almost any kind of fast 3NPS run, and my thumb was always pushing way too hard into the neck, causing pain and fatigue. No wonder I stopped enjoying playing the guitar: I was sore and tense all the time. 

Picking up a new instrument has forced me to slow down and find a way of playing that's comfortable and sustainable for practice sessions (which I enjoy now) and gigs (if I ever actually get one). It made me a better and happier musician.

So that's my tip: play bass. Or just make sure whatever you do you're not hating it and waiting for it to become enjoyable and fulfilling when you can finally play this or that thing. 

And always be on the look out for GIFO.


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## JustMac (Apr 24, 2014)

Is it okay to slide pinky to 4th note after hitting the 3rd note on 4 note per string stuff? My fingers aren't stretchy enough to play, for example, 5-6-7-9 with first,middle,ring and pinky, respectively.

It always sounds a bit quirky because of the slide, I don't know if that's a bad thing though


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## Omura (Apr 24, 2014)

JustMac said:


> Is it okay to slide pinky to 4th note after hitting the 3rd note on 4 note per string stuff? My fingers aren't stretchy enough to play, for example, 5-6-7-9 with first,middle,ring and pinky, respectively.
> 
> It always sounds a bit quirky because of the slide, I don't know if that's a bad thing though



dude, my sister is a very good pianist, she has small hands though, she used to physically stretch the webbing of her fingers by pushing her fingers apart with her other hand, I did it for a while too, it works great, doesn't hurt, you feel it, but not pain really. I had a friend want to learn guitar, her hands wer so bunched up that she couldn't fret 1-2-3-4 with her fingers, she could do 1-2-2.5, she couldn't even hit the 3rd fret cleanly. after 2 weeks of webbing stretching and practice she could fret 1-2-3-4 with all 4 fingers.
I'd say put the effort in and learn to do it clean, that slide will sound odd if you ever record of play things over chords, it could easily be dissonant in some situations.

For Op, I was taught originally by a jazz session player. He taught me the fingering you described originally, covering 6 frets. That's how I generally play. When I hit a riff or pattern that I stumble on over an over, I'll stop, and try different fingerings to find the best, but for the most part I always use all my fingers, and find it the most natural way to play.


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## JustMac (Apr 24, 2014)

Omura said:


> dude, my sister is a very good pianist, she has small hands though, she used to physically stretch the webbing of her fingers by pushing her fingers apart with her other hand, I did it for a while too, it works great, doesn't hurt, you feel it, but not pain really. I had a friend want to learn guitar, her hands wer so bunched up that she couldn't fret 1-2-3-4 with her fingers, she could do 1-2-2.5, she couldn't even hit the 3rd fret cleanly. after 2 weeks of webbing stretching and practice she could fret 1-2-3-4 with all 4 fingers.
> I'd say put the effort in and learn to do it clean, that slide will sound odd if you ever record of play things over chords, it could easily be dissonant in some situations.
> 
> For Op, I was taught originally by a jazz session player. He taught me the fingering you described originally, covering 6 frets. That's how I generally play. When I hit a riff or pattern that I stumble on over an over, I'll stop, and try different fingerings to find the best, but for the most part I always use all my fingers, and find it the most natural way to play.


 I get this numbing funny-bone sensation when I try to do this though, I've been trying for weeks!


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 24, 2014)

I use my pinky all the time, but I no longer consciously pay attention to when. There are certain situations now where I avoid using it because using the ring finger--for me--is just faster and it will also open up the opportunity for me to use the pinky still if I need it.


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## jimwratt (Apr 25, 2014)

Konfyouzd said:


> I use my pinky all the time, but I no longer consciously pay attention to when. There are certain situations now where I avoid using it because using the ring finger--for me--is just faster and it will also open up the opportunity for me to use the pinky still if I need it.



Same. There's no real point in not being able to use it. Choosing not to use it is a different story.


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## mr_rainmaker (Apr 25, 2014)

my pinky does everything but have its own twitter account.


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## Neilzord (Apr 25, 2014)

I always try to use the Pinky as much as possible, One day it'll catch up to be as functional as the other fingers (At least that's my plan)


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## Alicat (Apr 25, 2014)

Fascinating thread for me as I've been asking myself the same questions after watching some Paul Gilbert and Guthrie Govan videos - their pinkies are frequently hanging off the edge of the fretboard but then appear with lightning speed when needed.

I've always used my pinky a lot, probably because I started off playing bass. Interestingly, I got my first 8 string recently and my lead work is faster than on a 6 string. I think it's because I have fat fingers and it gives me a little more room to work with!


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## TeeWX (Apr 25, 2014)

For me the Pointer finger and Pinky finger are the most used, with the Middle and Ring finger being used roughly half as much. I stick to 3 note per scale stuff... since my guitar is tuned in 4th's I can hit any note I need by only stretching 5 frets. I only really ever play in the Minor and Harmonic Minor Keys.


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## Alex Kenivel (Apr 25, 2014)

My dad taught me at an early age to strengthen all my fingers equally, and I've used them all in my guitar playing for as long as I can remember. I don't really notice when I use it and when I don't tbh, except when playing my 30inch scale 8 string. Lately I've been doing whatever is the easiest due to my tendinitis and ulnar faciitis in both arms. Whatever fingers you use, be sure to STRETCH.


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## piggins411 (Apr 29, 2014)

I definitely use all of my fingers. I even use my index and pinky to finger power chords ocassionally


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## VBCheeseGrater (Apr 29, 2014)

only 1 casual and that was my vote. I just use the pinky when i need it. If my ring finger feels more comfortable or solid I go with that. Recently been working on the pinky a bit more though due to getting into sweeps more.

One thing I do use it for alot is to fret the 5th on 2 note power cords. It's just a habit i got into a long time ago. Unless i'm fretting the octave of course.


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## Der JD (Apr 30, 2014)

About a year and a half ago I tore a tendon in my left pinky, rendering it useless. The last joint just hung there. I couldn't extend it and had no control over the last joint. Miraculously, it healed and is nearly back to normal now (despite doctors telling me to have surgery, which I refused). I don''t have as good of control over it as I do my other fingers but to a certain extent I'd say that goes for most people. 

All in all, I couldn't use it for about 6 months. It was tough but I did my best to adapt and keep playing. Certain things became difficult to impossible- long stretches, certain chords, 4 note-per-string runs, etc. The experience really opened up my eyes to how much I use my pinky. Choosing not to use it is very limiting and almost foolish IMO. I'll never take the use of my fingers for granted again. Be careful! Pay attention to what you're doing to avoid injuries!


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## groverj3 (May 1, 2014)

Great thread.

When I first started playing my teacher offered me no instruction about when to use what fingers. Then I switched teachers. The guy I switched to had been classically taught but he played shreddy stuff. He was very strict about finger placement on the lower frets. He refused to let me use my index and pinky for powerchords and insisted on index and ring so I could add the pinky for the octave or other notes. Also, he had some unorthodox fingerings for open chords. The only one I adopted was for a G major, not using the index finger at all.

When playing scalar runs I tend to play strictly in position with fingers 1-4 handling their respective frets. For stretches I was taught to keep as many fingers in position as possible and extend my pinky to cover the extra distance. I can pretty consistently put at least two frets in between my ring and pinky unless I'm at a very low fret. However, when I run into something too hard for that I adjust as necessary. I guess I don't really think about it too much, but on the higher strings, above the 12th fret I only use my pinky when necessary and usually stick to index, middle, and ring for 3 nps runs. However, on the higher frets' lower strings (D string and below) I usually go back to a more strict 1-4 alignment, it just feels more natural.

I always see players doing things that look awkward to me, but I guess I'm not that good and they manage just fine. So, who am I to judge ? (Andy James comes to mind)


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## groverj3 (May 1, 2014)

Occasionally I do get this weird clicking sensation in my pinkies (both, not just the fret hand). It's strange but it's never painful and has occurred less as I've strengthened it.


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## OmegaSlayer (May 1, 2014)

As far as power chords are concerned I play them in any way, usually it's 1-4 with the pinky making a bar.
Sometimes it's 1-3 but only if I have to leave the pinky out to stretch onto the sixth or raise the ring f to play a fourth.
Sometimes if I want to switch between third and fifth I play the power chords with middle and ring (if I don't need the octave) or middle and pinky if I need a bar onto the octave.


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## asher (May 1, 2014)

groverj3 said:


> Occasionally I do get this weird clicking sensation in my pinkies (both, not just the fret hand). It's strange but it's never painful and has occurred less as I've strengthened it.


 
In the knuckles? Like they want to just pop from one position to the other? I get that too, mostly in my right hand but both, really. seems to happen more in the morning too.


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## OmegaSlayer (May 2, 2014)

asher said:


> In the knuckles? Like they want to just pop from one position to the other? I get that too, mostly in my right hand but both, really. seems to happen more in the morning too.



You so lucky you can play in the morning!
I'm never able to do that but...for a series of reason I had 1 hour this morning and practiced a bit and it was a dream.
Loads more of relax in the hands.
I must say that my work implies lots of work with weigths in the shoulders, arms, elbows, and wrist, lots of repetitive movements, so it already tires me a good deal.


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## asher (May 2, 2014)

Ha, I don't lol, usually I'm running late for work  But I've just noticed that in my pinkies doing various things.


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## nicomortem (May 2, 2014)

I casually and lazily use my pinkie along with my pointer to play most of my power chords, since it's easier than stretching my ring finger out to reach that 5th.


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## Matthew (May 2, 2014)

Why would you limit yourself in the first place?

Second thought: I've enjoyed some creative bursts when I set some arbitrary limits to alter my normal mode of thought, such as moving from a 7 back to a 6 string, but I can't place the value in this. Did I miss something?


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