# EU Referendum



## Maybrick (Jun 17, 2016)

So I know the date is closing for the vote for Brexit but I was wondering what SSO (mainly Britains users) thoughts are on it?

I'm not a political guy by any stretch so I've been trying to read up a lot of pros and cons for both sides. My general consensus is that there is no 'correct' answer as either side will have you believe, its just a case of "We'll have to wait and see"

Also: any Brit users notice the rise in Political Experts on their FB feed?


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## vilk (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm gonna write on this, but I'd like to apologize in advance if it turns out that I don't have a very good grasp of things. My understanding of why they want out of the EU is to be able to keep more people out as they see fit--which I interpret to mean they don't want a mass influx of Muslims more than they already have. I know that they weren't happy with all the Polish immigrants either, but does that factor in? I don't know.

As an American living on a country that spans so much area, saying "lets import x number of Muslims" means absolutely nothing to me. We could drop them in North Dakota or Wyoming and never have to think about it ever again.

But if I lived on an island with limited space, saying "lets import x number of Muslims" suddenly has a very direct impact on my life, especially if that number is very high. Now the argument becomes, is it acceptable for me to not want my life impacted in such a way? And I feel the answer is complex, and I don't even know how I'd vote.

It's ironic, because I actually live in a sorta Muslim neighborhood of Chicago, and it's actually really nice. One of the safer places actually. But my understanding of these migrant peoples is that they're violent. Understandably so, I can only imagine how difficult it is to grow into a peaceful person if you are raised in a warzone. 

But like actually visualizing the effects of packing the local hotel with fundamentalist religious folk who come from a culture where totally unacceptable behavior is the status quo and practice a belief system that is diametrically opposed to humanism, it's actually a little freaky. 

Then again, to deny safe haven to a refugee is pretty ani-humanist as well. So I guess what I'm trying to say is: I sure am glad it's not up to me!


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## oc616 (Jun 17, 2016)

Well, I'll be voting the way I'll be voting, but when it comes down to it. Here's the simple version:

If America gets Trump, and/or we leave the EU, I get to smoke a big pipe full of "I told you so" when the problems start happening. 

The funniest thing I've seen so far is this "X amount of money spent weekly on EU could go on the NHS instead". Where was it confirmed by our Government that said amount of money would EVER go directly into the NHS they are trying to privatise? 

Oh that's right! A leaflet that popped through your door said so...


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## cwhitey2 (Jun 17, 2016)

vilk said:


> As an American living on a country that spans so much area, saying "lets import x number of Muslims" means absolutely nothing to me. We could drop them in North Dakota or Wyoming and never have to think about it ever again.







I cannot really give an educated opinion about whats going over the pond as I do not watch much tele. 

What I cannot understand is why governments would quantify any of this...saying X amount will be coming. Is it factual and or estimate? If it's factual have these individuals been properly 'screened' not that its even possible to screen them?

Discussing refugee's/immigrants is a touchy subject and I understand why people would have different points of view. But when our government MAKES a state accept them when they clearly don't want them I have an issues with that. Whats the point of 'local' government?

It doesn't help that the media here is going crazy with terrorism. Every 'attack' is now the worst in US history...when we forget how we took this country. Labeling every Muslim as a terrorist is  I work with a kid who was from the heart of the war zones in Afghanistan. Nicest freaking person I have ever met in my life...would do anything to help anyone.

I have more of a problem with people moving to my town from NYC then I do refugees or immigrants.


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## Edika (Jun 17, 2016)

While I'm living in part of the UK that isn't on the main island and not being here sufficient time to have a right to vote (but pay taxes and not even have the illusion I can participate in democracy by voting :/) I won't be able to participate in this election.
What I can say is that the exiters rhetoric is mainly sentimental extreme right wing slogans for making Britain great again while the inners have a more logical and realistic approach of why they should stay in the more responsible neoliberal tending to more extreme right wing EU. 
Logistically the UK has more benefits in funding, scientific exchange and commerce if they stay in the EU than what little they give in the EU fund. Also bringing in 30000 refugees in a country of 18 million is hardly a security or economical risk. I recently read that they refused to accept 3000 unaccompanied children. Talk about a huge security risk.

Anyway even though I'm an economic migrant from the EU, in one case nothing will change and on the other I'll have to go through the hassle of getting a work permit and visa until I can get the residency in two years.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 17, 2016)

Britain has a lot of reasons to leave besides the immigration issues. I know Ireland could benefit a lot from not being under so many ridiculous EU laws.

I hope they stay, we would be f**ked here. We rely so much on them and having border control and no free travel will be such a pain. 

I'm not sure if I have this right but its likely they won't have free trade with the EU anymore so that means UK residents will have to pay customs on anything they buy outside of the country. So if you buy a guitar from Thomann in Germany you may have to pay customs on it as if you bought it from the US. I'm sure they will come to some sort of an agreement here.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 17, 2016)

My take as an Italian is that EU is crap, but leaving is way worse at the moment, especially for UK.
UK has been in EU in a very privileged way, both keeping their Pound and having a different way to deal with debt constrictions.
UK debts are high, the moment they would leave the EU, the EU will start to retaliate in nasty ways, as already mentioned by Merkel.
As I see things, if UK leaves EU it will have to resort to money from Arabian Countries, Russia and China (actually being purchased by them)...which is like going from the frying pan straight into the fire.
And I would say that Arabians, Russians and Chinese are just waiting to purchase what's left of London that they don't already have.
I totally understand EVERY single reason why the UK would want to leave, but I don't think it will work better for them.


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## StevenC (Jun 17, 2016)

I'll be voting to stay in the EU. One thing I found interesting in the leaflets put through my door were that one of them cited their sources, and the other was kind of hyperbolic. Also, there was a paragraph in the "Leave" leaflet that read a whole lot like it was saying people in other countries didn't deserve the same rights we have.

Being in Northern Ireland, I imagine we'll probably feel the impact of tightening borders, either on the border with the South, or possibly between here and Britain at airports and harbors. We've had our fair share of extremists who have taken action over less.

Depressingly, polls suggest most young people want to stay, but a greater majority of old people want to leave. Hopefully our exiting generations don't screw things up for us.


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## StevenC (Jun 17, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> So if you buy a guitar from Thomann in Germany you may have to pay customs on it as if you bought it from the US.



You hear that, UK guitarists? All you need to know!


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 17, 2016)

StevenC said:


> I'll be voting to stay in the EU. One thing I found interesting in the leaflets put through my door were that one of them cited their sources, and the other was kind of hyperbolic. Also, there was a paragraph in the "Leave" leaflet that read a whole lot like it was saying people in other countries didn't deserve the same rights we have.
> 
> Being in Northern Ireland, I imagine we'll probably feel the impact of tightening borders, either on the border with the South, or possibly between here and Britain at airports and harbors. We've had our fair share of extremists who have taken action over less.
> 
> Depressingly, polls suggest most young people want to stay, but a greater majority of old people want to leave. Hopefully our exiting generations don't screw things up for us.



Then younger generations should tell the oldies to not mess with their future much more, as they already had a huge list of messes on their shoulders.
What I'm going to say is not politically correct in the slightest, anti-democratic and I know it, but in cold reality what the damn should a 80 old geezer give about staying or not as he's going to..."move away" soon-ish?


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## chopeth (Jun 17, 2016)

I think most young British are against Brexit because the good side of globalization and culture make us all eventually more similar in every country, but old people in Britain are different. In my opinion (I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings) older British have a sense of superiority over most other European people I don't know where it comes from. This, together with the easy old trick of fear for the future and the menacing immigrants stealing their jobs and raping their children is a very effective way to control people, as we see everyday everywhere.

virtually ninja'd

In Spain we have a very serious problem of corruption and very bad future expectations. The political party at the power is a CONFIRMED enormous machine of stealing the money from everyone. The young people want them hanged, but the old people and the rich are both afraid of changes and interested in this huge theft plot to go on (those affiliated to this party, almost a million people, some of whom get their piece of the cake)


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 18, 2016)

Politicians are the face of the problem.
The true problem is the Bank system, that grabs Nations and Politicians by their balls.
And since all the World Governments should agree to stop the power of the Banks, we are literally screwed.


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## dr_game0ver (Jun 18, 2016)

And the truth is: https://youtu.be/SXf61mf-yuA?t=145


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## gtrplr71 (Jun 18, 2016)

this issue is not just a British issue it concerns even America as well. the fact is even if the vote is successful the Parliament will likely try to kick it back. ultimately if the vote is successful it will pave the way for Europe to bail out of the EU, which is nothing but a way to tax Europe to death and set a policy of indentured servitude for the whole of Europe. I support and hope it happens as the world as a whole is headed in a horrible direction. Just get on you tube and Find Paul Joseph Watsons videos.


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## mnemonic (Jun 18, 2016)

Most of what I hear has to do with the effect on the economy, which makes sense, since I work in finance, that is what everyone in my profession is fixating on. The general consensus is there is no general consensus on what will happen. All we know reasonably for sure, is that there will be volatility in the market, since uncertainty means volatility. My guess is we will see a drop in the value of the GBP vs. the euro or USD, and a drop in the market which will then recover somewhat when people realize we don't leave on day-one. If we stay, the market might even rally, who knows. 

As for the issues for me, I'm more concerned with the political union with the EU than I am with immigration. If our membership were purely an economic partnership (which from what I understand, it was when we joined, though this was before my time), I would vote to stay, but I do not like the political union, especially given how undemocratic the EU really is. 



Lorcan Ward said:


> I'm not sure if I have this right but its likely they won't have free trade with the EU anymore so that means UK residents will have to pay customs on anything they buy outside of the country. So if you buy a guitar from Thomann in Germany you may have to pay customs on it as if you bought it from the US. I'm sure they will come to some sort of an agreement here.



This will depend on what trade agreements are made if the UK exits the EU. Either way, nothing changes immediately, since it will apparently take two to three years to exit the EU. 

As for the EU 'punishing' the UK for leaving by enacting high tariffs on trade, many EU countries rely on UK trade, so they would also be hurting themselves by doing this. Given that the UK is one of the stronger economies in the EU at the moment, a leave vote will weaken the EU further.

The EU hardly has a unified voice either, many other countries, specifically the eastern European ones have been in the news lately, butting heads with the EU, and I wouldn't be surprised if they brought up their own referendums too if the UK left. I heard many in france want a referendum on EU membership, but I don't know if thats a popular opinion or just a loud minority. 


This is the way I look at it; if we weren't in the EU and this was a vote to join, would you vote to join? I wouldn't.


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## Chiba666 (Jun 19, 2016)

Maybrick said:


> So I know the date is closing for the vote for Brexit but I was wondering what SSO (mainly Britains users) thoughts are on it?
> 
> I'm not a political guy by any stretch so I've been trying to read up a lot of pros and cons for both sides. My general consensus is that there is no 'correct' answer as either side will have you believe, its just a case of "We'll have to wait and see"
> 
> Also: any Brit users notice the rise in Political Experts on their FB feed?




Oh yes I've released that one side of my family are so right wing they make Varg look moderate.

I've gone for the better the devil you know than the devil you don't. For better or worse.


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## Drew (Jun 20, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I'm not sure if I have this right but its likely they won't have free trade with the EU anymore so that means UK residents will have to pay customs on anything they buy outside of the country. So if you buy a guitar from Thomann in Germany you may have to pay customs on it as if you bought it from the US. I'm sure they will come to some sort of an agreement here.



This is essentially the crux of the problem - Leaving the EU is basically a vote for Britian to leave one of the world's largest free trade zones. The UK does have two or three years to try to negotiate some sort of trade terms, but considering they'd basically be starting from scratch, I think you need to be realistic about how much could be done in that window. 

I don't think there's any real debate that leaving the EU would be bad for the UK's economy - bare minimum, the market believes this to be the case, and global stock market indices are up virtually everywhere as the odds of a Brexit appear to have fallen, after trading off for weeks as Brexit had begun to look more and more like a possibility. 

That said, the British economy isn't the only reason to stay or go, so if other factors outweight employment and economic growth, there certainly could be arguments to leave. Idunno. As an American who works in the financial sector, I'm hoping the Stay vote wins. We have enough economic uncertainty at the moment, breaking up the EU is the last thing an already fragile world economy needs.


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## bostjan (Jun 20, 2016)

This is a decision that, I suspect, will have effects on Wall Street as well, which may well have ramifications on general life in the USA. If nothing else, US politicians will use it as an example to drum up more polarization.

Either way, I hope the UK makes a wise choice.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 20, 2016)

Leave EU and immediately see LSE replaced in importance by FWB.


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## Zado (Jun 20, 2016)

&#340;uuuuuuuuuuuunnn away for your lives you fools!!


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## Drew (Jun 20, 2016)

bostjan said:


> This is a decision that, I suspect, will have effects on Wall Street as well, which may well have ramifications on general life in the USA. If nothing else, US politicians will use it as an example to drum up more polarization.
> 
> Either way, I hope the UK makes a wise choice.



It already is - again, most major markets, ours included, are up as recent polling suggests the Remain vote is pulling away. 

It'll also likely have an impact on London's growing role as a financial hub - the City has always had a healthy financial sector, but it's currently arguably the financial center of the EU, whereas post Brexit I'd expect Luxembourg to pull away.


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## Given To Fly (Jun 20, 2016)

Maybrick said:


> Also: any Brit users notice the rise in Political Experts on their FB feed?



This made me laugh.


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## Maybrick (Jun 21, 2016)

I thought that the Out campaign was looking like it was going to win but I think since the death of Jo Cox, the Remain camp have really exploited that death and used it to their advantage.

I feel terrible for her family, seeing their daughter/wife being used a puppet for a political agenda.


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## celticelk (Jun 21, 2016)

Maybrick said:


> I thought that the Out campaign was looking like it was going to win but I think since the death of Jo Cox, the Remain camp have really exploited that death and used it to their advantage.



Based on what evidence? News coverage alone shouldn't count - murders of sitting MPs aren't exactly everyday occurrences, and no one made the killer give a right-wing slogan instead of his name when he appeared in court.


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## Drew (Jun 21, 2016)

Maybrick said:


> I feel terrible for her family, seeing their daughter/wife being used a puppet for a political agenda.



Feel for them for their loss. Considering she was a staunch "Remain" supporter, if her death is going to help the UK remain in the EU, I don't think she'd mind that it became a rallying point for a cause she believed in.


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## ESPImperium (Jun 23, 2016)

The main issue with the EU is that Germany has too much of a say, and is almost the head of the defacto cartel. Germanys Supreme Court is above the EU Supreme Court and thus can tump all of the EU laws.

The way id like to see the EU work is Free trade, Freedom of Labour and control the borders to the East. The EU should also have many common laws, but ones that affect us all, leave half with the countries and half with the EU. Think of it like this, we all have the Human Rights laws and common trade laws (with a few exemptions for all countries) and a commonality on Health & Safety, and common laws for those countries in the Euro.

The EU should leave Security laws, Economic Policy to better your country and leave stupid Human Rights contraventions by Convicted Terrorists to the independent countries. If they are a Terrorist and have a cat, thats not a right to a family life. Also same with Asylum Seekers, they should only be allowed to Seek Asylum if they have their full papers from their own country. Also countries should also be allowed to break the cultural differences and stop the Romanian Gangs prostituting out their daughters/sisters/wifes to make a quick bob, if they do that they are not wanted. Also when it comes to dealing with the Chinese dumping cheap steel on the market, the independent countries need to deal with this and not the EU. The last thing that needs felt with is economic migrants, they need to be able to come to the UK if they have a skill/job before they come and only be able to claim benefits once they have paid in to the UK for 5 years and can't claim Child Benefit until the child is in the UK and in education. Also when they come, they need to have insurance for that 5 years as they will be billed for NHS treatment. Whilst the immigration problem is on, all migrants need to be able to speak/read English to O Level (for England/Wales, Do they still exist?) or Intermediate 2 (Scotland) level and when they come in they need to surrender all their IDs to the appropriate authority to have their ID number from what their country is to tally with a UK ID to prevent crime.

Give powers back to the governments, and not have greater integration. Think close common alliance and not integration. Also for new members joining, they need to be clean for 20 years and not ran by a dictator. In other words, stop the Turkish and Albanians joining. And as for the EU in Brussels/Strasbourg, the place needs to be reformed, reduce the fiscal overburden by 30% a year until it is about 50/50 with the member countries GDP. And the more you pay in, the more you get back. 

I can see many points on either side that i like, it will be a few hours until we see an indication on where we will be.


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 23, 2016)

Well I voted to remain. I hope common sense prevails, because I can't even begin to imagine how much worse this country would be if out of the EU.


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## asher (Jun 24, 2016)

BucketheadRules said:


> Well I voted to remain. I hope common sense prevails, because I can't even begin to imagine how much worse this country would be if out of the EU.



Sadly, xenophobic fvcking assholes prevailed.


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## StevenC (Jun 24, 2016)

Worth noting the pound just dropped 10% thanks to those xenophobes who don't have any grasp on economics.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jun 24, 2016)

1% drop is massive...10% is...failure in the best case scenario.
Especially because now UK will be asked to pay their debts with EU with a currency that is worth less.
If the debt is 100 it became 110 in 5 hours.


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## wankerness (Jun 24, 2016)

Not like we didn't all know this. 

On the bright side, for those from other countries, now is a good time to buy all the stuff off Amazon.co.uk you'd been eyeing. I'm all over the Arrow blu-rays 

Also on the bright side, maybe this will serve as a warning for those who want to elect Trump because of xenophobia. Not that most of them pay attention to anything on the other side of the Atlantic, but I will stay optimistic.


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## Zado (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm pleased that UK citizens had the chance to choose, something not to be taken for granted. In Italy this would be inconceivable


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## 1b4n3z (Jun 24, 2016)

As a researcher of economics and (sometimes) politics I find this an interesting case of public choice. First hand thought was "how much people are willing to pay for less EU migration?" and second - "do people know they are actually paying for it" 

This will probably mark the dissolution of EU as we know it, but of course that is normal in the course of European history. So it's a conservative choice in a way 

Btw glad I pulled my money out of funds some time ago..


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## Winspear (Jun 24, 2016)

At least my life savings are in dollars right now and the majority of my business is international...


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## chopeth (Jun 24, 2016)

Trump, Le Pen and the rest of the scum must be happy. Sorry for Britain.

Furthermore, this is going to help the ....ing facist corrupt government of my country in the elections this Sunday. Great. Thanks, Britain.


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## AliceLG (Jun 24, 2016)

EtherealEntity said:


> At least my life savings are in dollars right now and the majority of my business is international...



If I had waited a week I would've gotten a 10% Brexit discount 

Serously though, this sets a crappy precedent, especially for non-European migrants like me 

If the EU ends up dissolved in 5-10 years that's fine, so long as no one comes up with the brilliant idea of abolishing the Schengen Agreement.


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## UnderTheSign (Jun 24, 2016)

At least now they'll find out all the issues in schools, finance and insurance were their own fault and not necessarily due to EU regulations. When you start blaming the EU for reformations your own politicians made (looking at you here, older generation Brits), you need a wake up call.

I just hope this won't ruin too much for the younger generations, who apparently mostly voted remain or were too young to vote.


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## Fraz666 (Jun 24, 2016)

mnemonic said:


> As for the EU 'punishing' the UK for leaving by enacting high tariffs on trade, many EU countries rely on UK trade, so they would also be hurting themselves by doing this. Given that the UK is one of the stronger economies in the EU at the moment, a leave vote will weaken the EU further.


yes.
the leave vote will weaken everyone

I had a sad awakening today reading the news


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## oc616 (Jun 24, 2016)

It's the age we live in. Divide, divide, divide. Sorry...I should call it "striving for independence". 

Never have I seen people trying so hard to sell the "us and them" pitch.


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## vansinn (Jun 24, 2016)

I think Dr. Roslyn Fuller (Irish, expert in international law) gets it just right:



> ..the truth is that British &#8216;democracy&#8217; has long operated more through skillful manipulation than genuine public consultation.
> ..the key to winning elections in Britain is not to win votes, but rather seats by channeling money into key ridings and ignoring lost causes.
> That money has inevitably come from wealthy interests, with both major parties having a history of courting everyone from real estate developers
> to financial investors, from media magnates to the alcohol industry. And since tickling money out of the wealthy requires some accommodation of
> ...




Westminster will remain, the corrupt banking system will remain, and Britain will keep exerting pressure on international politics, only, now comfortably outside of the, otherwise pretty much totally defunct, EU.

I'll argue that at some point (sooner than) later, a debate will flourish, arguing that Britain now needs some "special association" with the EU.

A real vote would better have been about leaving Westminster and taking down the Crown Corporation, Inner City of London.


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## ESPImperium (Jun 24, 2016)

I voted remain as the economic argument was the same as the Scottish Independence Referendum, what divides us makes us weaker.

Im a 55%er and now I'm a 48%er. I like unity, hate xenophobia and racism. I feel those people who have pointed us in this direction need to be held accountable, and one thing is for sure, they will say it wasn't them guv at the end of the day.

I just hope that the UK can afford this in the end, as lets face it, they are already backtracking on the £350m a week figure by saying it won't all go to the NHS.

I just bloody hope that Nicola Sturgeon can pull yet more powers and money out of the UK budget as a whole as Scotland voted remain. And if Northern Ireland can do the same, all the power to them.

Am i glad i got a few things imported before this kicked off as the items are now 20% more expensive once Customs charges are factored in.


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## Zado (Jun 24, 2016)

£-&#8364; exchange is back where it was


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## oc616 (Jun 24, 2016)

Zado said:


> £- exchange is back where it was



Eh? It's 1.25 to the euro atm.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=p...1.69i57j0l5.1882j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

EDIT: Just fell to 1.24 as I typed.


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## Zado (Jun 24, 2016)

The Exchange was 0.78 a couple of days ago, 0.79 now, nothing to bee too excited/despaired about


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## Louis Cypher (Jun 24, 2016)

Pretty cr*p day to be british tbh.... classic British Xenophobia and fear of "Johnny Foreigner" taking over has fcuked us over. Was really glad Scotland voted to stay in the UK a couple of years ago, but now who can blame them for wanting to vote again to leave, and Ireland too.... Could poss end up with this vote meaning that little old England is left all alone with a cr*p currency, p1ss poor trade agreements, inflation and interest rates sky high.... but least all the Vote Leave campagners can be happy there will be no immigrants in the country any more takign our jobs and forcing down wages....... Ohh apart from all the Non EU mirgrants who actually make up around 2 thirds of the Net Migration figures for 2015 who successfully got to stay in the UK.... so still over 200k a year.... 

Also financially this morning more than £100billion was wiped off the FTSE UK stock market due to the leave vote.... biggest drop in history..... marvelous.... nothing to worry bout... bit of the old Dunkirk spirit and a round of tea and cucumber sandwiches will fix it what what!! Had worse during the war dontcha know....... Baaaaa!!!


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## Zado (Jun 24, 2016)

Dunno about Britain, but the fear of the foreigner is well established here in Italy, and for proper reasons, foreigners are supported way more than italians, and our population is litterally dying due to economics. Lately in my town you just cant leave your house after 10:00 pm, the risk of getting robbed (or raped in case you're a fine lady) is extremely high, something totally unexpected 3 or 4 years ago.


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## vinniemallet (Jun 24, 2016)

I'm Portuguese and I have 5 friends working in UK. All of them work hard in good companies, pay taxes and contribute to the economy. One of my friends didn't have a job here in Portugal. He went to UK with 1000&#8364; and found a job in a Levis store. That Levis store had 24 workers, it was a massive store. 22 of 24 guys were foreigners. Only 2 British guys were working in that store. My friend was like: we placed job ads but not a single British answered. How they can say foreign are there to take their jobs when they clearly don't want to work or at least don't want to work at what they consider (sh**ty jobs)?


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## Mprinsje (Jun 24, 2016)

well so long britain, it's been fun while it lasted. hopefully the EU can now better itself without GB being annoying all the time.


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## Edika (Jun 24, 2016)

The first thing I have to say is that we have to see if the referendum will actually be enforced. You might ask yourself "but that would be undemocratic" but this was never a democratic process anyway. If you're given pseudo dilemmas then the results would be that the one that howls the loudest wins. I'm sure most people were expecting a landslide and the percentage of people between 18-30 to stay in the EU were 75% so guess who had the final say in it.
English politics especially have played the xenophobe card in most of their political history, even in recent years, blaming the foreigners for their problems and having an unjustified national pride. The shrinkage of the middle class here and the reduction of public services can be easily directed from unsuccessful government planning to immigrants bloating the system. It was the same misconception for reducing benefits from the unemployed with the people having a skewed perception of the percentage that received them. Thus making this result not so surprising.
I wonder England not being a colonial war loving empire anymore, how is it going to become great again lol! Will it be their great industrial and agricultural presence worldwide?

Just as I was typing this I received an email from a moving company about their new website and reduced price services lol!


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## GraemeH (Jun 24, 2016)

ESPImperium said:


> I voted remain as the economic argument was the same as the Scottish Independence Referendum, what divides us makes us weaker.
> 
> Im a 55%er and now I'm a 48%er.



I'm in the same boat as you.

Leaving the UK would have left us an irrelevant economic backwater. Leaving the EU is less dramatic but the same effect to a smaller degree.

We're basically going to be a Switzerland now. No offense to any Swiss but that means utterly irrelevant to the world, politically and financially. The only way you'd notice if Switzerland disappeared overnight is you'd have less nice mountain scenery on your flights to Italy. We don't even have that, we're already in the middle of the ....ing sea.

Farage is to the UK what Salmond and Sturgeon are to Scotland. Divisive for the sake of feeling relevant and powerful themselves, just egotism dragging everyone down with them by convincing enough plebs that everything is terrible and it's all "someone over there"'s fault.


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## StevenC (Jun 24, 2016)

I fortunately can get an Irish passport. Though, the queues are ridiculous, even though the Dublin passport offices have an extra 200 staff today.


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## Andromalia (Jun 24, 2016)

Well, I'm mixed about this. 
One part of me is "YAY THEY'RE GONE AFTER 40 YEARS OF BEING BLEEPS ! EAT THAT, LOBSTERS !". Because the UK English was the main brake to EU progress since Maggie.

The other part is that the UK citizens will likely suffer from that decision, which isn't cool.

The last part prays the £ bombs enough so I can get some good deals at Anderton's 

I'll personally lend help to Welsh, Irish and Scots seeking asylum.


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## Mprinsje (Jun 24, 2016)

^ 
cracked up at the "i feel like killing myself"


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## mnemonic (Jun 24, 2016)

I, for one, am kind of glad that the 'everyone who disagrees with me is racis' sentiment has been so strong, since now whenever someone starts parroting off the racist/islamophobic/misogynistic buzzwords, they're now pretty much discounted as someone that has no real argument.


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## fps (Jun 24, 2016)

Absolute catastrophe. The levels of ignorance among large numbers of Leave voters make me angry and disbelieving. Wales voting directly against its own interests. People thinking the NHS was going to get extra funding, now the media plays dumb, "it's not? Wow!" when Farage admits it, when anyone with a brain knew this months ago. People thinking Britain will be able to access the single market without accepting the free movement of people. Idiots.


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## Chiba666 (Jun 24, 2016)

I for am voted to stay and cant believe the vote. Glad to see the older generation have made a decision that they wont bear the brunt of it for long, just their Grand kids.

Dave the rave should have but more effort into campaigning as should the rest of the remain party.

Welcome to right wing Britain will all minorities/Imigrants and people that dont like warm beer, cricket of the 1950s please make your way to the airports and jump on the earliest flight out of here.

Fear and Hate wins the day remind you of anything.


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## tedtan (Jun 24, 2016)

I was pretty surprised to see the results of this vote; I thought that the remain vote would ultimately win out all along.

I wish you guys in the UK/GB the best of luck, but suspect this is a move for the worse.


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## Andromalia (Jun 24, 2016)

fps said:


> Absolute catastrophe. The levels of ignorance among large numbers of Leave voters make me angry and disbelieving. Wales voting directly against its own interests.



That "level of ignorance" is something carefully engineered by right wing parties everywhere in the world. They all have slashing the Education budget in common. It's the only way to get a majority vote when your schemes favor a minority. The people who voted out are victims.


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 24, 2016)

I am f*cking livid.

I can't believe so many of us have voted to ruin our own country.

No-one who wanted to leave actually has a plan. We're up the creek without a paddle now, cast into total uncertainty. All we can be sure of is that the economy will crash and burn (it's already started), we won't get much of the independence the Leave voters have been harping on about and to top it all off, the rest of the world now thinks we're a joke. Great diplomatic move...

People who didn't want to be governed by "unelected, out-of-touch, unreachable EU bureaucrats" are f*cking stupid, because we're still partly governed by the unelected, out-of-touch, unreachable House of Lords. Oh, and now Cameron's stepped down we're going to have an unelected prime minister for the next four years anyway!

I'm glad the old, xenophobic element of the UK populace has got what they want. They'll be dead soon. I'm 21, so it's reasonable to expect I'll be around for a while... picking up the pieces of a country ruined by a decision I didn't make. I was planning to move out of my parents' house soon, I wonder if I'll be able to afford to now the pound is worth less than a f*cking bottle cap.

I feel nothing but total despair for this sh*thole country and its uneducated, idiotic Little Englander population who think this is for the best.


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## bostjan (Jun 24, 2016)

This, folks, is why democracy does not always lend itself toward social progress. Part of the idea of having representatives was to smooth out some of the fickle nature of voters themselves, in order to preserve their interests long-term.

Best of luck to everyone in the EU and in the UK.


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## fps (Jun 24, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> That "level of ignorance" is something carefully engineered by right wing parties everywhere in the world. They all have slashing the Education budget in common. It's the only way to get a majority vote when your schemes favor a minority. The people who voted out are victims.



I have just qualified as a teacher. I am going in directly to make a change on this.


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## asher (Jun 24, 2016)

bostjan said:


> This, folks, is why democracy does not always lend itself toward social progress. Part of the idea of having representatives was to smooth out some of the fickle nature of voters themselves, in order to preserve their interests long-term.
> 
> Best of luck to everyone in the EU and in the UK.



Makes Madison's supermajority for constitutional changes seem a bit sharper now, for sure.


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## narad (Jun 24, 2016)

OmegaSlayer said:


> 1% drop is massive...10% is...failure in the best case scenario.
> Especially because now UK will be asked to pay their debts with EU with a currency that is worth less.
> If the debt is 100 it became 110 in 5 hours.



As did my student loans. Damn you American PhD, United Kingdom job!


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## Mprinsje (Jun 24, 2016)

asher said:


> Makes Madison's supermajority for constitutional changes seem a bit sharper now, for sure.



lucky those kind of things exist. If you want to change the constitution over here there has to be a normal majority (50%+1 seat) in parliament, after which the government has to step down, new elections have to be had and after that there has to be a 2/3 majority for the change.


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## Chiba666 (Jun 25, 2016)

Ive seen so many bit sand pieces saying the majority has spoken so we should all shut up and get behind the sinking ship. Whie it was 52 to 48 only something like 72% of the population voted so that hardly makes the 52 a majority. There should have been a % that had to be reached based on turnout. As stated above the almost or soon to be dead have messed up for the current population of kids at school, Uni or just entering the job market an probably screwed my kids future up, thanks to my right wing 2nd generation Irish immigrant family who harped on about immigration for the the last 10 weeks. and nothing else.

MAkes you proud to be a brit, oh hang on no it dosn't. Luckily the queen employs me outside of the UK and wile I will get hit with any tax or additional cuts to pay (not much left to cut) I should escape the worst of it. Its those stuck trying to make a start that I feel sorry for, not the baby boomers who believe their childhoods were so great. The world has moved on for better or worse, we can go back only forward.


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## mnemonic (Jun 25, 2016)

72% is pretty good turnout, actually. Looking at the numbers for general election turnouts, the UK hasn't had a turnout that high since the 90's. And before the 90's, a turnout around the mid-70's seemed standard. 

The USA hasn't had a turnout for a presidential election that high since 1900. 


If the non-voting 29% wanted their voices heard, maybe they should have voted.


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## chopeth (Jun 25, 2016)

Let's boycott Great Britain, never buy a Rolls Royce again


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## StevenC (Jun 25, 2016)

chopeth said:


> Let's boycott Great Britain, never buy a Rolls Royce again



That's Germany you're thinking of...


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## chopeth (Jun 25, 2016)

StevenC said:


> That's Germany you're thinking of...



Is it? Well, anyway, I guess the EU has now 1 GB of free space


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## Mwoit (Jun 25, 2016)

Yes, the video is hosted by Wings Over Scotland but this was broadcasted on the BBC.

Strong discontent in Scotland.


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## bostjan (Jun 25, 2016)

Couldn't the Queen technically tell everyone to sod off, and keep the UK in the EU, if she wanted? You guys are a monarchy, still. I mean, I highly doubt it's likely, but...


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## Mwoit (Jun 25, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Couldn't the Queen technically tell everyone to sod off, and keep the UK in the EU, if she wanted? You guys are a monarchy, still. I mean, I highly doubt it's likely, but...



I doubt the rest of the nation would let her just swoop in and bark orders out. No one gives a .... about her in the UK.


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## Andromalia (Jun 25, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Couldn't the Queen technically tell everyone to sod off, and keep the UK in the EU, if she wanted? You guys are a monarchy, still. I mean, I highly doubt it's likely, but...



The queen can't, the UK government, however, can, with a very simple thing: not asking to leave, which they still have to do in an official way. I still think they will do it for interior political reasons: 

-I was for staying, but I'll ask out because I respect the will of the people
-State crashes, but as I was for staying, I'm getting elected
-I can blame all bad results on exiters
-I'm guaranteeing being elected for 20 years. Profit.

So basically, in a paradoxal way, the politicians who will push for it are the ones who were against it in the first place, because it will profit their careers.


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## StevenC (Jun 25, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Couldn't the Queen technically tell everyone to sod off, and keep the UK in the EU, if she wanted? You guys are a monarchy, still. I mean, I highly doubt it's likely, but...



Currently, the only thing the Queen actually does, politically, is choose whether or not too sign her name to make things laws. And while she does claim to read everything that's put in front of her, she doesn't refuse to sign anything. If we need an act to decide to leave the EU, she can not sign it, otherwise she can't do anything.


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## kmanick (Jun 25, 2016)

some food for thought. 

I copied this from some sight I stumbled across yesterday (not my words)
of someone defending the Brexit
I found it a very interesting perspective.

"Blaming the "older people of being short sighted here is laughable.
Yes, we are all migrants in a last analysis. But history has some lessons, even from the dawn of humanity. Immigration en masse threatens the existing cultures and even extinguishes them. Whether peacefully or violently, it doesnt matter. All peaceful settlement turns violent when the critical mass of the new population has been reached. And then genocide or assimilation is the only possibility: resistance is futile. Neanderthal was wiped out in Europe by Homo Sapiens. Rome destroyed by the Barbarians. The Christian populations and the Zoroastrians disappeared under the Arab conquests. The native nations and their cultures were destroyed by the European settlers. Only a few peoples were able to reverse the trend, the Spanish after 800 years of struggle, the Russians with a huge human cost to avoid German settlement and Slavic destruction.
So now Muslims come en masse and peacefully to Europe, and each one wants to work decently, I agree. But they bring Islam, its imams, teachings, prejudices, supremacist ideology, birth rate. As long as they are just another community, fine. But when they reach the critical mass and spread massively, Islam in its most literal form cannot be stopped, and eventually kafirs will have to accept submission. The European culture will disappear, like many others disappeared before. Europe has to defend its borders, and take the migrants it needs not just anyone. It has to defend its population and culture and establish cultural quotas. It has to abandon the age of innocence and grow into experience. Or else it is suiciding itself."

Maybe the older folks have a better grasp of what has happened historically on this planet than the millennials who are crying about their future. Their future may be drastically different than envisioned.
Extinguishing existings cultures may have been an inevitable outcome in Europe if nothing changed. The mass migrations are all one way. No one in Europe is going into the middle east, they are all flowing out.

Food for thought, this is a fascinating time we are living in


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## celticelk (Jun 25, 2016)

^^^ And yet, the UK voting districts with *more* non-UK-born residents were *more* likely to vote Remain. How does that square with your analysis?

EU referendum full results


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## StevenC (Jun 25, 2016)

That's the most fear mongering thing I've ever read.


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## asher (Jun 25, 2016)

Includes "Millenials crying", highly skeptical of argument.

*reads*

....yeah no. You want some statistics to disprove that bull....?


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## narad (Jun 25, 2016)

kmanick said:


> some food for thought.



You're wrapping Islam up in this, but migrations from ..say Syria, are not the type of immigration that was being fostered by being in the EU. You kick the migrants out and England probably becomes _more_ Islamic, given the huge number of Brit muslims I know -- But it just becomes a lot less French/Spanish/German/Italian/Romanian, etc etc.


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## UnderTheSign (Jun 25, 2016)

Reading that was as if someone taught Trenchlord to write more than single sentence catchphrases.


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## flint757 (Jun 25, 2016)

Now isn't the time to panic either way. The earliest anything can be initiated is October or November and that's only if they actually follow through with it. If they do go through with it then it will be another two additional years, albeit without any say in the EU, before it goes into effect, if I'm understanding correctly. A lot has to happen between now and then to make sure people's paperwork are in order and trade deals are in place, but the whole drop in the pound thing is so silly. It's merely a reaction to the UK's future uncertainty, not indicative that the decision was right or wrong in itself, especially since it hasn't even happened yet. It's the equivalent to a rise in gold stock when people think the market is going to crash here in the US.

One thing is certain though, things are going to be quite interesting over the next decade. I suspect more countries might try the same thing and some significant policy change may very well happen within the EU as well. Scotland and Ireland may try to gain independence again if they want back in the EU. The EU is trying to bring Turkey into their fold. I have no opinion on whether any of this is good or bad, as I don't have enough information to say one way or the other, but some pretty significant things are likely going to occur.


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## narad (Jun 25, 2016)

flint757 said:


> It's the equivalent to a rise in gold stock when people think the market is going to crash here in the US.



More like the equivalent to a rise in gold stock when an overwhelming majority of financial experts have told you the decision you made would have significant negative effects on the US market in the near-to-mid term, right?

(But I'm sure the EU is going to be inclined to be suuuper accommodating to the UK during the next round of trade negotiations...)


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## Andromalia (Jun 25, 2016)

> Immigration en masse threatens the existing cultures and even extinguishes them. Whether peacefully or violently, it doesn&#8217;t matter.


What a load of crap. You know what happens to cultures that don't change ? They die. Populations have moved since the time we were able to count people. And probably before but there's no proof outside of the geological record. People from other cultures bring a different outlook on life, widen and enrich the genetic pool, mingling is a good thing. I'm not a specialist of england, but, those indian restaurants. 
An,d don't get me talking about the women, the most beautiful ones to get in my bed were all of mixed descent. I recall a specially beautiful canadian girl with mixed caucasian/native indian family. Too bad she had to go back. T_T


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## flint757 (Jun 25, 2016)

narad said:


> More like the equivalent to a rise in gold stock when an overwhelming majority of financial experts have told you the decision you made would have significant negative effects on the US market in the near-to-mid term, right?
> 
> (But I'm sure the EU is going to be inclined to be suuuper accommodating to the UK during the next round of trade negotiations...)



I don't disagree with any of this. The people are already calling for another referendum as I understand it. My point is nothing has happened yet so the value of a pound dropping is merely reactionary.

As for being accommodating, isn't UK important to the region economically? I assume Europeans didn't elect a bunch of emotional teenagers to run your countries and appoint the EU officials. If that assumption holds true it's to everyone's benefit to play nice I'd think, but I'm admittedly ill-informed on the politicians running in the region.


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 25, 2016)

chopeth said:


> Let's boycott Great Britain, never buy a Rolls Royce again



Oh you can boycott Honda and Nissan, but not for long because they only set up factories here because it was their gateway to the EU market. Now we're going to be out of the EU they have no reason to stay here, and will presumably pack up and move to France or somewhere.

So that'll leave us with... 

... I'm sure there must be something...


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## kmanick (Jun 25, 2016)

Ahh guys I said those were not my words, I came across that comment written by a Brit defending the Brexit. 
It's not my analysis, I'm not really all that familiar with what's going on in England, so I could not offer an accurate analysis. 
I just found it an interesting perspective coming from a Brit. 
I find that history tends to be dismissed by the progressives or they like to rewrite to fit their own narrative.
StevenC if that's the most fear mongering thing you've ever read ....................
I'll have to bite my tongue so I don't get "banned" again. History is fear mongering now?
oy vay


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## celticelk (Jun 25, 2016)

kmanick said:


> I find that history tends to be dismissed by the progressives or they like to rewrite to fit their own narrative.



Given the way I generally see conservatives idealizing history, there's plenty of tar on that brush to go around.


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## StevenC (Jun 25, 2016)

celticelk said:


> Given the way I generally see conservatives idealizing history, there's plenty of tar on that brush to go around.



Not to mention they throw out the science, too.


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## drmosh (Jun 25, 2016)

so gutted


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## narad (Jun 26, 2016)

flint757 said:


> I assume Europeans didn't elect a bunch of emotional teenagers to run your countries and appoint the EU officials.



You'd be surprised!


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## Necris (Jun 26, 2016)

kmanick said:


> Ahh guys I said those were not my words, I came across that comment written by a Brit defending the Brexit.
> It's not my analysis, I'm not really all that familiar with what's going on in England, so I could not offer an accurate analysis.
> I just found it an interesting perspective coming from a Brit.
> I find that history tends to be dismissed by the progressives or they like to rewrite to fit their own narrative.
> ...


I didn't really want to touch this one, since I've been trying to stay out of PC&E in general, but let me take a stab at it. This will probably be my sole post in this thread. My knowledge of the specifics of the situation in Great Britian is probably similar to yours, as well, so I won't claim any expertise there. I'm an American with friends in Scotland and that's about the extent of my connection to the issue.

I'm hardly a cheerleader for Islam so let's get that one out of the way now, but, If I had to guess, maybe the problems some have with the analysis you quoted is that the systematic erasure of European culture and values by the scary barbaric culture of the Muslim immigrants is a hallmark of conspiratorial right wing garbage and is usually served up with nonsense extrapolations from data about the high birth rate in Muslim countries in comparison to the birth rate in European countries as proof that there is an imminent danger that if you let Muslims into said country will be Islamic and follow strict Islamic law within X-number of years.

Maybe another reason people are so wiling to discard this man's analysis is that, while it is appealing to history, the historical background wasn't really that accurate.
If we want to talk about rewriting history to fit a narrative the use of the fall of the Roman Empire and the Barbarian Invasions (Goths, Vandals, Huns etc) as proof of the dangers of immigration is certainly something to take a more skeptical look at. I'm more familiar with it than the other examples.

Were the various invading barbarian groups attempting to immigrate and assimilate into the Roman Empire? Not in the least. So this example is already not applicable. We could stop there but for fun let's go deeper. Did the various barbarian groups, after immigrating en masse and waiting generations for their combined population to eclipse that of all other ethnic groups within the Roman Empire, attempt to violently overthrow the Roman empire and impose their culture? No, obviously not.
For that matter, were the barbarian invasions the sole cause of the collapse of the Roman empire? Again, no, Rome had huge, long running problems politically and socially that destabilized it and contributed to its collapse.

The Muslim conquests prior to and following the death of Muhammad also weren't results of the "Immigrate and Wait" strategy the guy you quoted implied either, you had 130+ years of military campaigns to conquer the lands.


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## narad (Jun 26, 2016)

How will the EU treat the UK during trade negotiations?

The EU will treat Britain like Greece


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## 1b4n3z (Jun 26, 2016)

Tough times ahead - as long as the exit drags on, many more may want to exit as well - to create a block against which EU negotiates. A country alone would probably face harsh treatment, to discourage furthers 'separatism', but many countries may have a significantly better position. This is why EU wants to break it off quickly. Of course, if there will be many countries signing off in the coming months, the whole project may collapse.

What I'm worried about is the backlash inside the UK, once people finally find out what just happened. I see a painful divisions forming between groups of people - and geographical areas


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## Andromalia (Jun 26, 2016)

narad said:


> How will the EU treat the UK during trade negotiations?
> 
> The EU will treat Britain like Greece



It will mainly depend on what the UK out of the EU can benefit the EU.

Overall, the deals _have _to be unfavorable to the UK_, _for many reasons.

-As seen everywhere in the press, it is needed for the UK to lose in order to make other countries stay
-As *not* seen everywhere in the press, EU governments have EU and internal politics to care about, too. The "socialist" government is in a very difficult position in France and might be tempted to curry popular favor by bashing on the english. Siphoning some jobs from the UK would also help him. The UK is seen as a dead body with the EU governments thinking about how to get the best morsels for themselves.
-It is likely Scotland will leave at some point. The main problem for the UK is'nt monetary there. It will result in a much more rightwing electoral pool for England, which will give the usual results: poorer people overall.



> as long as the exit drags on, many more may want to exit as well



Inconsequential. Countries that would actually vote and act on a Leave are the small ones. Poland and stuff. Although having to deal with many leavers at once would likely be difficult, lots of people in EU think that it is unmanageable with 27 countries all pulling in their own direction and that getting this big was a mistake. On strictly egoist terms I'd welcome going back to being 12 countries.


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## Demiurge (Jun 26, 2016)

kmanick said:


> Ahh guys I said those were not my words, I came across that comment written by a Brit defending the Brexit.
> It's not my analysis, I'm not really all that familiar with what's going on in England, so I could not offer an accurate analysis.
> I just found it an interesting perspective coming from a Brit.



It does seem like that quote that you posted does reveal the thought process for some in this whole matter, but it's still pretty ironic when citizens of countries that were either heavy colonizers or colonies themselves complain about how destructive immigration is, though. That kind of tempers the perceived credibility of the complaint.


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## fps (Jun 26, 2016)

kmanick said:


> Maybe the older folks have a better grasp of what has happened historically on this planet than the millennials who are crying about their future. Their future may be drastically different than envisioned.
> Extinguishing existings cultures may have been an inevitable outcome in Europe if nothing changed. The mass migrations are all one way. No one in Europe is going into the middle east, they are all flowing out.
> 
> Food for thought, this is a fascinating time we are living in



The older folk we are talking about are not the heroic generation who fought in the second world war. 

They are the generation after that, born in the 40s, who have taken advantage of free education, affordable housing, social mobility and everything the EU had to offer, and have then pulled the ladder up on the next generation. They have no idea how hard things are for the younger generations, where a masters is now a bare minimum requirement for many jobs that could have been worked into from entry level in the 60s and 70s. Where a deposit for a house is a fantasy. Where standards of living are now lower for the young than they are for the old.


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## Womb raider (Jun 26, 2016)

fps said:


> The older folk we are talking about are not the heroic generation who fought in the second world war.
> 
> They are the generation after that, born in the 40s, who have taken advantage of free education, affordable housing, social mobility and everything the EU had to offer, and have then pulled the ladder up on the next generation. They have no idea how hard things are for the younger generations, where a masters is now a bare minimum requirement for many jobs that could have been worked into from entry level in the 60s and 70s. Where a deposit for a house is a fantasy. Where standards of living are now lower for the young than they are for the old.



Same applies to the US as well, but if you make a peep about how hard it is, you're called lazy and unmotivated. Never the less, these people are going the way of the dinosaur and hopefully then, we can get some real change to happen.


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## asher (Jun 26, 2016)

kmanick said:


> Ahh guys I said those were not my words, I came across that comment written by a Brit defending the Brexit.
> It's not my analysis, I'm not really all that familiar with what's going on in England, so I could not offer an accurate analysis.
> I just found it an interesting perspective coming from a Brit.
> I find that history tends to be dismissed by the progressives or they like to rewrite to fit their own narrative.
> ...



You don't get to uncritically post transparent garbage as "food for thought" with no original thought added and then turn around and throw up your hands like you're free of responsibility when people point out what a load of crap it is.

I could quote Nigel Farage as an "interesting perspective coming from a Brit" too, but he immediately turned around and said he was lying about stuff he was claiming in the Leave campaign. So him being a Brit is of no inherent value.

Also, to quote a commenter somewhere else: "I DON'T WANT TO LIVE IN INTERESTING TIMES NO NORE!"


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 26, 2016)

I saw this post yesterday. Music to my ears - makes me quite optimistic that we may end up not leaving. I don't think Boris Johnson truly wants to, the slimy bastard only sided with Leave in order to shaft David Cameron and take his position... and look at what he's been left with.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"If Boris Johnson looked downbeat yesterday, that is because he realises that he has lost.

Perhaps many Brexiters do not realise it yet, but they have actually lost, and it is all down to one man: David Cameron.

With one fell swoop yesterday at 9:15 am, Cameron effectively annulled the referendum result, and simultaneously destroyed the political careers of Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and leading Brexiters who cost him so much anguish, not to mention his premiership.

How?

Throughout the campaign, Cameron had repeatedly said that a vote for leave would lead to triggering Article 50 straight away. Whether implicitly or explicitly, the image was clear: he would be giving that notice under Article 50 the morning after a vote to leave. Whether that was scaremongering or not is a bit moot now but, in the midst of the sentimental nautical references of his speech yesterday, he quietly abandoned that position and handed the responsibility over to his successor.

And as the day wore on, the enormity of that step started to sink in: the markets, Sterling, Scotland, the Irish border, the Gibraltar border, the frontier at Calais, the need to continue compliance with all EU regulations for a free market, re-issuing passports, Brits abroad, EU citizens in Britain, the mountain of legistlation to be torn up and rewritten ... the list grew and grew.

The referendum result is not binding. It is advisory. Parliament is not bound to commit itself in that same direction.

The Conservative party election that Cameron triggered will now have one question looming over it: will you, if elected as party leader, trigger the notice under Article 50?

Who will want to have the responsibility of all those ramifications and consequences on his/her head and shoulders?

Boris Johnson knew this yesterday, when he emerged subdued from his home and was even more subdued at the press conference. He has been out-maneouvered and check-mated.

If he runs for leadership of the party, and then fails to follow through on triggering Article 50, then he is finished. If he does not run and effectively abandons the field, then he is finished. If he runs, wins and pulls the UK out of the EU, then it will all be over - Scotland will break away, there will be upheaval in Ireland, a recession ... broken trade agreements. Then he is also finished. Boris Johnson knows all of this. When he acts like the dumb blond it is just that: an act.

The Brexit leaders now have a result that they cannot use. For them, leadership of the Tory party has become a poison chalice.

When Boris Johnson said there was no need to trigger Article 50 straight away, what he really meant to say was "never". When Michael Gove went on and on about "informal negotiations" ... why? why not the formal ones straight away? ... he also meant not triggering the formal departure. They both know what a formal demarche would mean: an irreversible step that neither of them is prepared to take.

All that remains is for someone to have the guts to stand up and say that Brexit is unachievable in reality without an enormous amount of pain and destruction, that cannot be borne. And David Cameron has put the onus of making that statement on the heads of the people who led the Brexit campaign."





*stands*

*applauds*

*applauds David Cameron, yes really*


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## narad (Jun 26, 2016)

BucketheadRules said:


> I saw this post yesterday.



Sounds more like an anime or something where the fate of nations is based on some sort of gambit between two men. I think the reality of the situation is a lot less fun.


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 26, 2016)

narad said:


> Sounds more like an anime or something where the fate of nations is based on some sort of gambit between two men. I think the reality of the situation is a lot less fun.



Probably a lot less fun for Boris, yeah. There's no easy way out for him that I can see - he's toast. Good, I hate him.

I imagine Cameron's probably doing an evil laugh.


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## narad (Jun 26, 2016)

BucketheadRules said:


> I imagine Cameron's probably doing an evil laugh.



Cameron's taking a good portion of the blame on this, and rightly so. This is not a win for him OR Boris OR the people of the country.


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## Maybrick (Jun 27, 2016)

I for one didnt actually vote in the end (partly because I'd moved in the last 12 months and was too late registering (Yes I'm aware I had way more than enough time)).

I find is so sad that so many of my friends on Facebook have almost fallen out due to different opinions. I also hate the way so much bullsh*t is being spread too. So many 'statistics' with no sources quoted where the person sharing it clearly believes it because they read it on the internet. The first thing that springs to mind is the who £350 mil to the NHS and all the remainers trying to rip it out of Farage. I for one am not defending Farage but he never said that in the first place and he wasnt even part of the leave campaign. I just hate the way people try to find ways to backup their anger/hatred in any way they can.

What I should have done was delete my Facebook or just simply had a Social Media blackout for 2 months or so leading up to the referendum. The amount of viciousness on there was mind blowing. The last few weeks everyone has turned into political experts, the week before that everyone is a gun control expert after Orlando and the week or two before that everyone is a wildlife expert after the incident in the US with the Gorilla and the little kid.

I do find it ironic how Cornwall had a huge Leave percentage and now they're regretting it or at least demanding that the Government match the £60mil a week they were getting from the EU.


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

Well, looks like the madness perfectly mirrors the increase in broad daylight attacks on anyone with a hint of a foreign accent in the UK. Had to step in with another bystander to break up one "built like a brick **** house" gentleman from attacking 2 east European car salesman. At least his wife had the common sense to leave out of embarrassment whilst he slammed the compound gates shut repeatedly, kicking the vehicles and yelled "No, YOU can leave and YOU can leave. We won, **** off!"

And then there was that rally in Northampton. Oh boy...

That's the real scary part. Not the economy, not the policy changes. The bigots and racists now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and that takes a lot of the fear away from being openly aggressive about their beliefs. The videos I've seen from other parts of the country really do match up with my own city.


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## Maybrick (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> Well, looks like the madness perfectly mirrors the increase in broad daylight attacks on anyone with a hint of a foreign accent in the UK. Had to step in with another bystander to break up one "built like a brick **** house" gentleman from attacking 2 east European car salesman. At least his wife had the common sense to leave out of embarrassment whilst he slammed the compound gates shut repeatedly, kicking the vehicles and yelled "No, YOU can leave and YOU can leave. We won, **** off!"
> 
> And then there was that rally in Northampton. Oh boy...
> 
> That's the real scary part. Not the economy, not the policy changes. The bigots and racists now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and that takes a lot of the fear away from being openly aggressive about their beliefs. The videos I've seen from other parts of the country really do match up with my own city.



I read reports of large groups of people in Huntingdon, Cambridgeshire which is close to me having similar issues. You're right - that's the scarier part about all of this.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jun 27, 2016)

Following the latest news seems to suggest a lot of Brits (at least 3 million) are having buyer's remorse for the 'Leave' vote, while Scots threatening they'll either leave the UK, or veto the 'Leave' decision when signed into law. All this while the Sterling & stock markets are going down in a free fall, so now please forgive my ignorant question: 

Where's the queen from all of this? Is she simply going to stand watching this nightmare unfolding while doing nothing? Can she do anything to stop this madness?


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Following the latest news seems to suggest a lot of Brits (at least 3 million) are having buyer's remorse for the 'Leave' vote, while Scots threatening they'll either leave the UK, or veto the 'Leave' decision when signed into law. All this while the Sterling & stock markets are going down in a free fall, so now please forgive my ignorant question:
> 
> Where's the queen from all of this? Is she simply going to stand watching this nightmare unfolding while doing nothing? Can she do anything to stop this madness?



The royal family has powers, but hasn't really used them in a LONG time. She's more like a token, if you will. If there was a decision that by some archaic legal loophole required her to decide, then the government would pressure her into one particular direction. They're not very autonomous.

I don't know of anything in my lifetime that would have required this, and I don't know if the referendum is one of those scenarios where she would be required.

Pound to Euro update: "1.21". Still going down.


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## Maybrick (Jun 27, 2016)

I'm going to Amsterdam this weekend on a Stag Do - knew I should have bought my Euros sooner


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## Nick (Jun 27, 2016)

yeah markets are still in turmoil. I'm going to CZ Rep in August for Brutal Assault festival. Hopefully things spring back a bit or I wont be living like the king I usually do this year...


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## Nick (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> Well, looks like the madness perfectly mirrors the increase in broad daylight attacks on anyone with a hint of a foreign accent in the UK. Had to step in with another bystander to break up one "built like a brick **** house" gentleman from attacking 2 east European car salesman. At least his wife had the common sense to leave out of embarrassment whilst he slammed the compound gates shut repeatedly, kicking the vehicles and yelled "No, YOU can leave and YOU can leave. We won, **** off!"
> 
> And then there was that rally in Northampton. Oh boy...
> 
> That's the real scary part. Not the economy, not the policy changes. The bigots and racists now think 52% of the country agrees with them, and that takes a lot of the fear away from being openly aggressive about their beliefs. The videos I've seen from other parts of the country really do match up with my own city.



To be fair these c...s should be humanely destroyed. Not even saying that as a joke, there is no place for them in the modern world, getting rid of them would only benefit society!


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

Better get your euros fast you two.

It's now "1.20"

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=pound to euro


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## Andromalia (Jun 27, 2016)

I think it would overall be a good idea to have at least parts of your savings in euros or whatever is stable and not the british pound.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

'Remain' was a vote to continue prioritising predominately white Europeans for immigration, due to their nationality, over people from countries around the world, who may have valuable skills to offer.

I find it fascinating that anyone might struggle to grasp that an Australian-style points-based immigration system which provides visas to people with skills, qualifications and experiences which are valuable to our economy will almost certainly result in more people from ethnic minorities entering the UK.

I use to work for the Commonwealth, with most of my business in Africa and some in South-East Asia. I still work in International Business, focused more on Asia and Australasia, predominately in the education technology sector.

I voted Brexit, because I want the freedom to directly negotiate our own trade agreements, for closer relationships with emerging economies in Africa and Asia and a points-based system to make it easier for bright, industrious people from around the world to work in the UK.

I've been rather irritated reading comments in left-wing newspapers and by people on social media who have no experience in international business, inferencing I'm a 'bigot' and should have voted to remain in an exclusive club for predominately white Europeans, which restricts the UK's freedom to directly engage with countries across the planet, whose citizens - of far more diverse cultures and ethnicities than Europe's have much to offer us.

Even friends of mine who have voted Remain say they have been sickened by the smears of Remain supporters against anyone who voted Brexit.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

Anyone who did vote Brexit for racist reasons will be bitterly disappointed with the outcome - which will likely be many more Indian, African and Asian graduates entering the UK; with excellent qualifications and a more industrious work ethic than most British graduates, in my experience.

In my sector, we have a particular shortage of excellent programmers and electrical engineers among British graduates.

I will be delighted to see this being addressed with a points-based migration system.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

To be fair, both campaigns were bloody awful.

Leave focused far too heavily on immigration; both in terms of it being a divisive topic and also the reality (as conceded by Daniel Hannan throughout) that Brexit will not result in any significant net figure reduction.

Far better, would be to have focused on a positive vision of post-EU Britain; with direct trade relationships throughout Africa and Asia, brilliant graduates arriving from around the world to contribute to British companies and a more international outlook than the 41 years we were subordinated to a cartel of low-growth European countries that happened to be on our doorstep.


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## Andromalia (Jun 27, 2016)

> I've been rather irritated reading comments in left-wing newspapers and by people on social media who have no experience in international business, inferencing I'm a 'bigot' and should have voted to remain in an exclusive club for predominately white Europeans, which restricts the UK's freedom to directly eng



I don't know, if you're a UKIP guy sure, but otherwise I don't think anyone put a racist label on all the brexiters. 
Making the racist guys happy is pretty far down the list of my priorities. It most notably comes far after making them unhappy.


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## Rook (Jun 27, 2016)

P-ride I couldn't agree with you more, and voted along the exact same lines.

I've been called some disgusting things the last few days, it's really refreshing to see someone else with my opinion!


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## Nick (Jun 27, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> Leave focused far too heavily on immigration; both in terms of it being a divisive topic and also the reality (as conceded by Daniel Hannan throughout) that Brexit will not result in any significant net figure reduction.



While there are plenty of people with rational views as to why we should leave if that hadn't been a cornerstone of the campaign and the truth had been told about it there is no way the vote would have gone the way it did. I know quite a few otherwise rational people who I heard things like:

'I know they aren't all rapists and terrorists but we should be able to send the ones that are back....'

from 

There are a lot of logical reasons to leave but I find it hard to see whats happened here as anything other than another circle round the drain for the UK, maybe not economically, but ethically.


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 27, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> To be fair, both campaigns were bloody awful.
> 
> Leave focused far too heavily on immigration; both in terms of it being a divisive topic and also the reality (as conceded by Daniel Hannan throughout) that Brexit will not result in any significant net figure reduction.
> 
> Far better, would be to have focused on a positive vision of post-EU Britain; with direct trade relationships throughout Africa and Asia, brilliant graduates arriving from around the world to contribute to British companies and a more international outlook than the 41 years we were subordinated to a cartel of low-growth European countries that happened to be on our doorstep.



When you put it that way it sounds a lot more appealing.

I fear it's idealised though... we've got a hell of a long ride before anything prosperous comes from it.


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

Something we all need to appreciate though, regardless of your vote, is that this referendum would not have existed were it not for the key issue of immigration. Many arguments to support both sides have come up since, but it is the UK Government's inability to take the "immigration issue" as seriously as it's constituents that brought this event and it's result about.

I see a lot of people here justifying their choice for leave with some good points, with solid thought behind them that are not necessarily to do with immigrants. What should be accepted however, is the result would have been drastically different if it was not an issue that made up the majority of the leave campaign's propaganda. That irks me, playing to the xenophobic to secure a result knowing full well it wouldn't actually give them what they want. 

That's no leave voters fault though, it is the fault of the populace who listen to the loudest voice that confirms their bias. And the classic "politicians lie" motif we're so familiar with.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

Rook said:


> P-ride I couldn't agree with you more, and voted along the exact same lines.
> 
> I've been called some disgusting things the last few days, it's really refreshing to see someone else with my opinion!



Yeah, even friends of mine who voted Remain have been outspoken about how disgusted they are with many who are condemning Brexit voters as 'racist' or 'ignorant'.

I haven't once during the campaign made a blanket statement about Remain voters. I've highlighted examples of what I perceive to be confused rationale and challenged certain ideas, which has usually attracted counter-argument and interesting, useful debate with my friends - but never have I said 'Remain voters are XXX'.

Clearly, Remain voters have a huge range of backgrounds; including people who have genuine, well-informed and very credible concerns about the economy and trade, through to people who are jumping on the bandwagon and making silly assumptions about 'EU' equating to 'Europe' - as if the UK is actually going to leave a geographical landmass.

I've enjoyed engaging with these different groups; whether that involves challenging debate with ferociously well-informed scientists and people with formidable graphs, tables and data to refer to, or talking to someone who is new to politics and shy of debate, but who I treat with respect and carefully explain my position to and encourage to share their disagreement.

But the dismissive put-downs across my feed and social media; usually by people who have very little knowledge of politics, current affairs or international trade, are tiresome and plentiful.

The tactic of attempting to smear anyone outside the liberal-left consensus is not helpful, nor is it effective.

The UK's far-right British National Party had its strongest ever polling in a national election (1.9% in 2010) while being chastised, demonised and banned from debates.

BBC's Question Time invited them on (while leftist protesters went mental) and the BNP shortly collapsed and are now bankrupt.

I don't think Trump's rise from being an outside, fringe candidate to being the inevitable Republican candidate is unrelated to the attempts by many to demonise and physically attack his supporters, rather than listen to their grievances.

No matter how disagreeable someone might find a candidate or referendum policy, there is - in a society with free and fair elections - no reason to do anything other than engage with debate in a constructive fashion.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> Something we all need to appreciate though, regardless of your vote, is that this referendum would not have existed were it not for the key issue of immigration. Many arguments to support both sides have come up since, but it is the UK Government's inability to take the "immigration issue" as seriously as it's constituents that brought this event and it's result about.
> 
> I see a lot of people here justifying their choice for leave with some good points, with solid thought behind them that are not necessarily to do with immigrants. What should be accepted however, is the result would have been drastically different if it was not an issue that made up the majority of the leave campaign's propaganda. That irks me, playing to the xenophobic to secure a result knowing full well it wouldn't actually give them what they want.
> 
> That's no leave voters fault though, it is the fault of the populace who listen to the loudest voice that confirms their bias. And the classic "politicians lie" motif we're so familiar with.



Worth noting that Lord Ashcroft polling identified immigration as the second-most important factor for Leave voters from Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem voters, after sovereignty.

Still, it's clearly significant; but sovereignty came top.

Agreed, campaigning was cynical - although on both sides.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

BucketheadRules said:


> When you put it that way it sounds a lot more appealing.
> 
> I fear it's idealised though... we've got a hell of a long ride before anything prosperous comes from it.



Yeah, I don't know anyone sensible or well-informed in the Brexit camp who hasn't believed there will be a transition period of several years before the green shoots start to come through.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

It so happens I got my visa for Australia (for surf, not economic reasons!) a couple of months ago, when I thought Remain was more likely.

Confident I will receive many, 'Oh, so you're running off until we get the economy back on track!' accusations when I leave!


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## Nick (Jun 27, 2016)

In a perfect world I agree but sadly its been proven especially in the US that the most die hard supporters of politicians/political agendas are also the least informed and simply put, the thickest. How do you engage in debate with that?


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

Nick said:


> In a perfect world I agree but sadly its been proven especially in the US that the most die hard supporters of politicians/political agendas are also the least informed and simply put, the thickest. How do you engage in debate with that?



I think it's always worth trying.

Some people don't even give it a shot; posting 'Anyone who supports XXX is a bigot', so thrusting total hostility even before a conversation's started.

I'm a libertarian, but approach anyone, whether socialist, communist or any ideology with the interest in understanding where they're coming from.

Even if they're a bone-head, far-right, white-power racist, what good does physically attacking them do? It will only consolidate the victimhood complex which usually drives such a belief.

(I'll admit, I've snapped a few times when someone's posted a 'Anyone voting Brexit is an ignorant, bigoted twit' post on Facebook.)


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> Worth noting that Lord Ashcroft polling identified immigration as the second-most important factor for Leave voters from Conservative, Labour and Lib Dem voters, after sovereignty.
> 
> Still, it's clearly significant; but sovereignty came top.
> 
> Agreed, campaigning was cynical - although on both sides.



I'd be interested to see how many of them knew what the word sovereignty meant. How many, like yourself, were critical thinkers vs those who just thought it meant "free from EU tyranny". 

Like you said in a previous post, the racist/xenophobic leave voters will be disappointed when they realize that effectively nothing changes on that front. I'm still more concerned about how bold they've become in public since Thursday, and we've already had a few incidents in the school where I work (white British is in the minority combining the other student's ethnicity).

EDIT: It's also worth noting that my standpoint is neither left nor right. I gave up calling myself liberal with a lot of this PC culture malarkey, and I'm too socially minded to the entrepreneurial selfishness the right is invested in. Seeing how this argument has gone over social media, I don't want to identify myself as anything atm.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> I'd be interested to see how many of them knew what the word sovereignty meant. How many, like yourself, were critical thinkers vs those who just thought it meant "free from EU tyranny".
> 
> Like you said in a previous post, the racist/xenophobic leave voters will be disappointed when they realize that effectively nothing changes on that front. I'm still more concerned about how bold they've become in public since Thursday, and we've already had a few incidents in the school where I work (white British is in the minority combining the other student's ethnicity).



True. Although equally, I think quite a few people voted Remain, because they have this idea of the 'EU' and 'Europe' being somewhat interchangeable; as if a Brexit vote is saying, 'I hate the French, I hate the Germans, pull up the drawbridge and screw anyone who isn't English'.

As Daniel Hannan said, 'Saying I support the EU because I love Europe, is like saying I support FIFA because I love football'.

I've heard anecdotes of racist incidents, but cannot contextualise a set of examples against the usual background level.

In your experience at school, has their been a spike, about the usual level?


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> True. Although equally, I think quite a few people voted Remain, because they have this idea of the 'EU' and 'Europe' being somewhat interchangeable; as if a Brexit vote is saying, 'I hate the French, I hate the Germans, pull up the drawbridge and screw anyone who isn't English'.
> 
> As Daniel Hannan said, 'Saying I support the EU because I love Europe, is like saying I support FIFA because I love football'.
> 
> ...



Well there were 3 incidents in 2 days. The usual is just a passing remark from the odd student we correct once a week or so. Full blown "fights" are usually once every 3 weeks or so, being a troubled area shall we say. But to have 3 in rapid succession started by the white students is worrying for us. Usually it is the one who receives the racial slur that swings the first punch, but this time it's been the one's throwing them.

Combined with just walking around the city and listening to large groups of people talking about how great it is to see "the immigrants getting what they deserve", and the incident at a car dealership myself and another passerby had to step in and involve the police in, I'm witnessing the evidence myself. I can't confirm the written things on social media, but the video evidence of the past 3 days is pretty damning too.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> Well there were 3 incidents in 2 days. The usual is just a passing remark from the odd student we correct once a week or so. Full blown "fights" are usually once every 3 weeks or so, being a troubled area shall we say. But to have 3 in rapid succession started by the white students is worrying for us. Usually it is the one who receives the racial slur that swings the first punch, but this time it's been the one's throwing them.
> 
> Combined with just walking around the city and listening to large groups of people talking about how great it is to see "the immigrants getting what they deserve", and the incident at a car dealership myself and another passerby had to step in and involve the police in, I'm witnessing the evidence myself. I can't confirm the written things on social media, but the video evidence of the past 3 days is pretty damning too.



I'm sorry to hear that; I hope they die down.


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

Me too. They're just kids and don't need to have their parents personal agendas dragged into their lives.


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## P-Ride (Jun 27, 2016)

Yeah, it's sad when someone impresses ideology on their children, rather than encouraging them to try and form their own ideas. Especially when it's hateful ideology; but really, any ideology.


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## 1b4n3z (Jun 27, 2016)

From here it looks implausible any additional immigration might gain acceptance in the UK in near future. Especially work-based immigration, so the notion described above - which I find intriguing and quite worthy of exploration, myself - appears to be based on fantasy mostly. Were there any attempts at building that points-based system before?
Bundled together with all the other pro-brexit points that one seemed like an after-thought.

I fear that was an uprising against the UK establishment, rather than EU. That's why I'm worried about what happens when people find out their problems are not going to be solved and they were mainly home-made to begin with :/

(We'll see more of these in different countries before long I'm sure. I'm sure in the end we'll see it was the old great depression economics that did us all in. Too bad many see it already )


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## oc616 (Jun 27, 2016)

Well, so much for needing us: EU leaders reject informal talks with UK - BBC News

I'm interested to see who realises what this actually means, and those who say this doesn't affect us.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> Well, so much for needing us: EU leaders reject informal talks with UK - BBC News
> 
> I'm interested to see who realises what this actually means, and those who say this doesn't affect us.



I had the feeling, and to some extent confirmed by initial reactions of Hollande & Merkel, that EU will not make it easy for UK after Brexit. If anything, they'd want to make an example of UK, so they'd deter other nations, and political voices within their own from going same route.

@P-ride: I totally get your point and you do have a reasonable argument for the exit vote, after all I don't think everyone who voted that way was necessarily motivated by racial or xenophobic views. My only concern is "At what price?". In my opinion, political leaders bear most of this burden, David Cameron & Jeremy Corbyn are to blame here.


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## Psionic (Jun 27, 2016)

Its so tempting to contribute to this thread i allready wrote 3 Posts and deleted them prior to posting and since im not british im not gonna fall for it.

Just one thing said: Capitalism and globalisation is going to kill us all sooner or later so why even bother? 
The people believing its about some kind of nationalism or bs are the manipulated sheeps on both sides on the left and on the right.
Thank god i dont have kids.


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## Rook (Jun 27, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> I had the feeling, and to some extent confirmed by initial reactions of Hollande & Merkel, that EU will not make it easy for UK after Brexit. If anything, they'd want to make an example of UK, so they'd deter other nations, and political voices within their own from going same route.
> 
> @P-ride: I totally get your point and you do have a reasonable argument for the exit vote, after all I don't think everyone who voted that way was necessarily motivated by racial or xenophobic views. My only concern is "At what price?". In my opinion, political leaders bear most of this burden, David Cameron & Jeremy Corbyn are to blame here.



In whose best interests is that? Not enabling easy trade with 70,000,000 of the wealthiest people in the world?!

This is all gesturing because the rest of Europe fears that Brexit will lead to more referenda and a mass exodus of the EU. Hollande for example won't be round much longer and if Le Pen gets anywhere we'll potentially see a French referendum and a France looking for some trade deals. Holland want a referendum, likewise Italy and Portugal, it's pretty obvious how Greece feel about the EU.

And why would we focus on Europe, anyway? This to me was an opportunity to globalise, rather than isolate. How about free trade with India, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Canada?

People drawing conclusions about whether Brexit was a good or bad idea based on 4 days of this, that and the other are kidding themselves. We won't know whether it would have been correct to stay OR remain for at least 2 or 3 years.


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## flint757 (Jun 27, 2016)

oc616 said:


> Well, so much for needing us: EU leaders reject informal talks with UK - BBC News
> 
> I'm interested to see who realises what this actually means, and those who say this doesn't affect us.



A quick glance through that link and it just seems that they won't talk until it is official. Nothing in there would imply that they are unwilling to cooperate at all, aside from the comment about strengthening the EU, whatever that implies.

Lets say that this was the case in an attempt to 'strengthen' the EU though. In the long run that will backfire hard. Ruling through strength/fear, especially when most people have no say in what the ruling party does, leads to inevitable failure almost always. Eventually those you tried to scare away from doing what they wish stop caring about the consequences and it is what usually leads to national uprisings.

In the short term, a stern hand might dissuade some countries from taking similar action, but in the long term the EU 'loses' either way, especially if it doesn't change how it operates in some capacity. They either do the responsible thing and remain amicable, since the UK has a flourishing population and business sector, which would mean people are less afraid to leave, as everyone operates in the spirit of cooperation, or they bully the UK, which would hurt the entire region not just the UK, and likely piss off other nations that are already unhappy with how the EU runs shop. 

On a micro level I see it all the time, especially at places I've worked. Places that control through fear work for awhile until the tension is just intolerable and either someone explodes or you just see people quitting left and right.

Also, I agree that people should really stop and listen to people's opinions no matter what side they come from on an issue. If you start a conversation calling someone a sexist or a bigot or a xenophobe or a slur or whatever the conversation isn't going to go anywhere. Neither of you will hear each other and neither of you will be changing anyone's mind. The person you're talking to may very well be all of those things, but to just assume that someone who disagrees with you is any of those things only fuels the 'us vs. them' mindset. It's ultimately not productive.


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## BucketheadRules (Jun 27, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> Yeah, I don't know anyone sensible or well-informed in the Brexit camp who hasn't believed there will be a transition period of several years before the green shoots start to come through.



This is the thing.

On a personal note, this immense financial uncertainty comes at the worst possible time for me as I prepare to move out of my parents' house and into London, finish my degree and hopefully forge a career in music. I have no idea what's going on any more - what negative repercussions there will be on my industry, or on a more basic level whether I'll even be able to afford to keep myself afloat if the economy keeps weakening. I've already heard that rent is set to go up, which is precisely what I definitely did not want to hear. Especially in London, where it's bad enough already.

Whatever. Just personal concerns, hardly a matter of national importance but hey, I'm sure I'm not the only person in this situation who is suddenly sh*tting a brick.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jun 27, 2016)

Rook said:


> In whose best interests is that? Not enabling easy trade with 70,000,000 of the wealthiest people in the world?!
> 
> This is all gesturing because the rest of Europe fears that Brexit will lead to more referenda and a mass exodus of the EU. Hollande for example won't be round much longer and if Le Pen gets anywhere we'll potentially see a French referendum and a France looking for some trade deals. Holland want a referendum, likewise Italy and Portugal, it's pretty obvious how Greece feel about the EU.
> 
> ...



Great response, but if there's so much intolerance to the EU idea, why didn't political leaders work out solutions to reform it? I guess it's a rhetorical question, political figures across the pond here are useless as well.


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## Varcolac (Jun 28, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Great response, but if there's so much intolerance to the EU idea, why didn't political leaders work out solutions to reform it? I guess it's a rhetorical question, political figures across the pond here are useless as well.



They did. Cameron re-negotiated a load of EU treaties way back in February. 

EU deal: What David Cameron asked for... and what he actually got


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## Nick (Jun 28, 2016)

I think there is a chance David Cameron is playing a long and risky game here. Parliment could veto the vote and if they do DC could swoop in to 'rescue' the UK. Wouldnt surprise me if his motive from the start was to get rid of Boris and Gove without him actually sacking them (and admitting he was wrong to put them in their positions in the first place).

A conspiracy theory I know but I wouldnt be surprised if thats how it played out.


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## Andromalia (Jun 28, 2016)

Rook said:


> In whose best interests is that? Not enabling easy trade with 70,000,000 of the wealthiest people in the world?!
> 
> This is all gesturing because the rest of Europe fears that Brexit will lead to more referenda and a mass exodus of the EU.



Actually, at the moment, most of the EU seems to be praying that you don't just cancel all the stuff. The EU will be MUCH stronger without the UK, the governments are in a hurry because, we can't expel the UK so our hands were tied. Now that you made the mistake, yes, they're going to capitalise on this unique opportunity to get rid of a dead weight. The UK aren't partners any longer. They're competitors, and will be treated as such.
You do realise that lots of people have been dreamng of a UK-free EU for* thirty+ years ?*


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 28, 2016)

A lot of booing in the debate this morning at Nigel Farage. Its scary thinking the huge consequences or domino effect this is all going to have in the coming months and years.


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## Rook (Jun 28, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Actually, at the moment, most of the EU seems to be praying that you don't just cancel all the stuff. The EU will be MUCH stronger without the UK, the governments are in a hurry because, we can't expel the UK so our hands were tied. Now that you made the mistake, yes, they're going to capitalise on this unique opportunity to get rid of a dead weight. The UK aren't partners any longer. They're competitors, and will be treated as such.
> You do realise that lots of people have been dreamng of a UK-free EU for* thirty+ years ?*



Dead weight? We're one of only about 6 net contributors in the whole Union, what on earth about that tells you the UK is dead weight?

Apart from leaders puffing out their chests so that their own nations don't call for referenda, what are you basing any of this on?



BucketheadRules said:


> This is the thing.
> 
> On a personal note, this immense financial uncertainty comes at the worst possible time for me as I prepare to move out of my parents' house and into London, finish my degree and hopefully forge a career in music. I have no idea what's going on any more - what negative repercussions there will be on my industry, or on a more basic level whether I'll even be able to afford to keep myself afloat if the economy keeps weakening. I've already heard that rent is set to go up, which is precisely what I definitely did not want to hear. Especially in London, where it's bad enough already.
> 
> Whatever. Just personal concerns, hardly a matter of national importance but hey, I'm sure I'm not the only person in this situation who is suddenly sh*tting a brick.



I worry a lot of the talk about rents etc going up is scaremongering. If our economy recedes, as it very likely will for a while, there's no way in hell interest rates go up, money is worth less therefore you don't have to pay as much for it.

If interest rates stay low, mortgage rates shouldn't change.

If there's uncertainty in our economy, house prizes faulter, foreign investment stops and house prices stop screaming up at crazy rates. In fact, if there's that much uncertainty, we could see an influx of landlords and foreign investors selling property around the next few months, and a significant increase in supply and decrease in demand means lower house prices.

As long as the government keeps building, which they almost certainly will, and unless you're a homeowner relying on a big profit to sell (just remortgaged for example) you're in a very good position housewise.

Speculation, of course, but I feel safe in a lot of those assumptions.


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## Andromalia (Jun 28, 2016)

> Dead weight? We're one of only about 6 net contributors in the whole Union, what on earth about that tells you the UK is dead weight?


Mainly, the UK has been one of the main opponents to the construction of Europe, vetoing this and that legislation when it was unfavorable to banks and large companies.
Also note that you contribute much less than you should thanks to special arrangements that I have no clue why they were given to you in the first place. the view of UK in mainland europe is, basically, "the whining spoiled brat who plays alone", "The lapdogs of America" etc: a handicap to EU construction, not an asset. You do realise your country is extremely unpopular right ? Arrogant governments for decades didn't help.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/brexit-great-news-eu-britain-sovereignty


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## Maybrick (Jun 28, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Mainly, the UK has been one of the main opponents to the construction of Europe, vetoing this and that legislation when it was unfavorable to banks and large companies.
> Also note that you contribute much less than you should thanks to special arrangements that I have no clue why they were given to you in the first place. the view of UK in mainland europe is, basically, "the whining spoiled brat who plays alone", "The lapdogs of America" etc: a handicap to EU construction, not an asset. You do realise your country is extremely unpopular right ? Arrogant governments for decades didn't help.



I for one am fully aware that we're a very much disliked country.


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## Nick (Jun 28, 2016)

thats what decades of baseless entitlement will do though


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## Rook (Jun 28, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Mainly, the UK has been one of the main opponents to the construction of Europe, vetoing this and that legislation when it was unfavorable to banks and large companies.
> Also note that you contribute much less than you should thanks to special arrangements that I have no clue why they were given to you in the first place. the view of UK in mainland europe is, basically, "the whining spoiled brat who plays alone", "The lapdogs of America" etc: a handicap to EU construction, not an asset. You do realise your country is extremely unpopular right ? Arrogant governments for decades didn't help.
> 
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/28/brexit-great-news-eu-britain-sovereignty



I've travelled and worked all over Europe and never had the faintest inkling that's the case, and the reason for that is you're making sweeping generalisations that frankly aren't any more constructive than accusing everyone voting leave of being a xenophobe.

'Baseless sense of entitlement'? This thread was going so well.

Did you ever question why we've historically been europsceptic instead of just believing all the 'grass is greener' nonsense seriously pro EU European leaders spout? To posset that our government is any more power or money hungry than any other is a bit naive frankly.


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## Andromalia (Jun 28, 2016)

I have plenty of pals from the UK, I always talked about the UK, England, etc, not "the english". I'm not dumping the UK's public image on my brit friends, so maybe they don't know. And yes I'm making sweeping generalisations, because I don't have the time (nor the willingness, tbh) to go in detail over the dozens of traps the UK has laid on EU construction since Margaret Thatcher.
I'm a pretty far left socialist, believe me I'd very much like everyone to get together and so forth. But the UK was an impediment to Europe, so I guess it's better if they make it in last when all the work is done.


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## Rook (Jun 28, 2016)

If you're a far left socialist, that's not going to help you look upon the UK favourably. I think our two countries histories also won't much help, but if you surround yourself by left wing opinion then the British action on an EU level wouldn't make sense.

I personally am not far left, and I think what the EU sells people like you on is not only unrealistic, but also massively inflated in terms of its authenticity.

I also think it's a bit patronising that you'd infer that not only do you speak for the majority of Europeans - you're no more European than I am - but that you're suggesting that those very same people have been protecting my feelings all this time.

It'd be lovely if everyone in the world could live together and love each other, but they never will, and it's not something you can legislate for. Or, in the EU's case, attempt to appear to legislate for.


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## oc616 (Jun 28, 2016)

It's also very patronising and condescending to tell someone their ideas are "unrealistic and inauthentic". I would very much preach the same for the right's entrepreneurial selfishness, and a world taken to its extreme wouldn't be a place I could live or raise my kids in. 

I believe unification will be the only way through the trying times ahead. In my eyes, individualism/nationalism may as well skip a few steps ahead and bring on the Mad Max vibes. That doesn't make me an extreme leftist, after all PC culture and its malformed ilk are dumping enough poison in that well, but equally I don't find sense in taking pride in the dirt that you were born on by chance. Heritage, culture, race, sex etc are not earned and so therefore no sense of achievement or pride should ever factor into it. How's that for a left wing thought? Wouldn't be considered very progressive for stating that TBH, but if we're going to play the logic > emotion card, national pride can jump on the bonfire too.


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## celticelk (Jun 28, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> The UK aren't partners any longer. They're competitors, and will be treated as such.
> [/B]



Given that the UK and the EU conduct approximately 30 billion pounds worth of trade per *month*, I think that adversarial attitude is not going to be terribly productive going forward. (https://www.uktradeinfo.com/Statistics/OverseasTradeStatistics/Pages/EU_and_Non-EU_Data.aspx)


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## Rook (Jun 28, 2016)

oc616 said:


> It's also very patronising and condescending to tell someone their ideas are "unrealistic and inauthentic". I would very much preach the same for the right's entrepreneurial selfishness, and a world taken to its extreme wouldn't be a place I could live or raise my kids in.
> 
> I believe unification will be the only way through the trying times ahead. In my eyes, individualism/nationalism may as well skip a few steps ahead and bring on the Mad Max vibes. That doesn't make me an extreme leftist, after all PC culture and its malformed ilk are dumping enough poison in that well, but equally I don't find sense in taking pride in the dirt that you were born on by chance. Heritage, culture, race, sex etc are not earned and so therefore no sense of achievement or pride should ever factor into it. How's that for a left wing thought? Wouldn't be considered very progressive for stating that TBH, but if we're going to play the logic > emotion card, national pride can jump on the bonfire too.



Aside from the fact that I wasn't addressing you, I don't think you've actually read what I wrote.

The unrealistic and inauthentic remarks were in regard to the EU, not anybody's beliefs.

Secondly, we're not talking about extremes, as the extreme progression of left wing socialism is communism and I'd be surprised if you were in favour of that. If you are, the chances of us agreeing on anything are basically zero anyway.

'Trying times ahead'? We're talking about money, a made up construct, and in a nation like the UK which has its foundations in a well-matured democratic socialist construct. Unification sounds great, and it's what the majority of people want, but the way to get it isn't to jam everyone together under an unelected beurocracy, it's to bring people together very gradually. 

Anthropologically, we haven't evolved to function in huge vastly diverse groups of people, and we've only needed to since the agricultural revolution tens of thousands of years ago. For millions of years prior to that we operated in small, family units with maybe one or two other families, a clear hierarchy and sense of purpose for each member, hunting and gathering. It's because of this that people struggle when coping with significant groups of people and why they're naturally wary of foreign things; people, food, you name it.

That's not to say people are naturally racist or whatever, but since that agricultural revolution, through ages of empires, people have tried time and time again to smash massive groups of people together, and the take away every single time is that slowly slowly wins the day. The fast growing empires that have gotten to the point of exporting people across their entire geographies are the ones that have crumbled the fastest.

People are slowly learning to overcome not only their wary instincts, but also what they're taught by their predecessors who are stuck in their same way, but even now if you try and bring average people together too quickly, you increase the level of resistance.

That's why I used the phrase unrealistic.


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## bostjan (Jun 28, 2016)

This is informative

According to that source, the UK paid 11.3 billion (thousand million if you count that way) euros and claimed 7.0 billion in benefits. France paid in 19.6 billion and claimed 13.5 billion in benefits. Germany contributed 25.8 billion and claimed 11.5 billion. All three are paying more than they get back, but the UK was on the short end of that scale. I guess, for a wealthy country, the sentiment that they were not contributing much is understandable; however, they were contributing, and what they contributed will be sorely missed, I'm sure.


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## CapnForsaggio (Jun 28, 2016)

bostjan said:


> This is informative
> 
> According to that source, the UK paid 11.3 billion (thousand million if you count that way) euros and claimed 7.0 billion in benefits. France paid in 19.6 billion and claimed 13.5 billion in benefits. Germany contributed 25.8 billion and claimed 11.5 billion. All three are paying more than they get back, but the UK was on the short end of that scale. I guess, for a wealthy country, the sentiment that they were not contributing much is understandable; however, they were contributing, and what they contributed will be sorely missed, I'm sure.



Definitely! and their exit will probably place a considerable increase in the pressure on those "providing" states. 

It's not like Greece or Spain is going to pickup the slack.... Only the richer countries have the ability to pickup this slack. I think they will eventually leave also. 

Last one out is a rotten egg scenario. This is the end of the EU. Good riddance.

If a country's language, music, and art are cultural and important..... Why isn't their economy, politics, and currency ALSO culturally important? (rhetorical, they obviously ARE important).


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## Andromalia (Jun 28, 2016)

> I personally am not far left, and I think what the EU sells people like you on is not only unrealistic, but also massively inflated in terms of its authenticity.



Actually, what the EU sells me today is more right wing hardcore capitalism... which we feel is greatly because of the UK. I want the EU to sell me something else. Note I'm not a true communist either, I'm an advocate of a controlled private market with tighter regulations than what we have today, and better tax control. 



> however, they were contributing, and what they contributed will be sorely missed, I'm sure.


Not really: access to the EU market without being a member isn't free (ask Norway and Switzerland, among others) so they'll endup still payhing but, without rebate, without funding, and without any say on policy.



> Given that the UK and the EU conduct approximately 30 billion pounds worth of trade per *month*, I think that adversarial attitude is not going to be terribly productive going forward.


Those billions aren't going anywhere and are for a big part UK imports. They'll just benefit less from that trade, and the EU more.


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## celticelk (Jun 28, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Those billions aren't going anywhere and are for a big part UK imports. They'll just benefit less from that trade, and the EU more.



From the source I linked:



> EU Exports for April 2016 were £12.0 billion.
> EU Imports for April 2016 were £19.1 billion.



The UK imports more than it exports, sure, but £12.0 billion a month isn't chump change. The EU doesn't hold all the cards in that negotiation.


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## Rook (Jun 28, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> Actually, what the EU sells me today is more right wing hardcore capitalism... which we feel is greatly because of the UK. I want the EU to sell me something else. Note I'm not a true communist either, I'm an advocate of a controlled private market with tighter regulations than what we have today, and better tax control.



You keep saying 'we' like you represent some majority and I'm really not convinced you do. It's the UK's fault the EU represents hardcore right wing capitalism?!

I don't even know where to begin with that.


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## vansinn (Jun 29, 2016)

1½ minute video explaining Brexit. Includes references to pigs sucking political dicks. English subtitles. Taiwan seemingly has good humor too 

https://www.facebook.com/tomonewsus/videos/1307860929242037/


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## Andromalia (Jun 29, 2016)

Rook said:


> You keep saying 'we' like you represent some majority and I'm really not convinced you do.
> 
> 
> > I for sure only represent myself, but this opinion is held by all the governements that told the brits to just get on with it, that were elected by a majority vote.
> ...


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 29, 2016)

celticelk said:


> From the source I linked:
> 
> The UK imports more than it exports, sure, but £12.0 billion a month isn't chump change. The EU doesn't hold all the cards in that negotiation.



This is where I hope Ireland can jump straight in and sort out a trade deal. We are so f**ked right now since 41% of our agri-food and drink exports go to the UK. We still have to rely on the EU for subsidies but thats going to be cut down now without the UK's contribution so we will have to strike a deal with the UK without pissing off other EU countries who want to see Britain punished for leaving.


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## StevenC (Jun 29, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> This is where I hope Ireland can jump straight in and sort out a trade deal. We are so f**ked right now since 41% of our agri-food and drink exports go to the UK. We still have to rely on the EU for subsidies but thats going to be cut down now without the UK's contribution so we will have to strike a deal with the UK without pissing off other EU countries who want to see Britain punished for leaving.



Yes, we do seem to enjoy that black stuff you call beer.


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## bostjan (Jun 30, 2016)

StevenC said:


> Yes, we do seem to enjoy that black stuff you call beer.



If the UK stops drinking Guinness, feel free to send whatever you cannot sell to my home address.


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## Rook (Jun 30, 2016)

There's a lot of uncertainty at the moment.

None surrounding the English continuing to drink Guiness however.


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## P-Ride (Jun 30, 2016)

For ....'s sake.

We thought if we got Brexit, we'd be almost certain to get Boris in 2020.

When Cameron stepped down, we thought, "Great, we'll now get Boris at the end of 2015, who can industriously fly around the world in an ambassadorial role, selling the UK and signing trade deals in Asia, Africa and elsewhere'.

Now we've likely got Gove, who is a backstabber with questionable leadership qualities; or Theresa May, who is pro-Remain (which hardly suggests she'll embrace the opportunities Brexit presents) and who is generally hostile towards liberty (EG the Snooper's Charter).


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## Drew (Jun 30, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> For ....'s sake.
> 
> We thought if we got Brexit, we'd be almost certain to get Boris in 2020.
> 
> ...



That's because, for all his many other failings, Boris isn't a complete idiot, and can see the writing on the wall - that, no matter what the Brexit campaign does from here, they're ....ed. He's just letting Gove take the bullet in his place.


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## Chiba666 (Jul 1, 2016)

Post above has got it in 1


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## oc616 (Jul 1, 2016)

I would be sat under a smug "CALLED IT!" sign if I:

A) Didn't still live here, and

B) Work in the sector Gove utterly destroyed with such ignorant malice

But a sense of justification remains in me, watching the champions of leave cower and flee realizing the amount of work the benefits they wanted would take. None of them want to be the fall guy, except someone who already got booted from NUT in a vote of no confidence, and a Remain voter  "Taking back control" one despised unelected PM at a time.


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## P-Ride (Jul 1, 2016)

Drew said:


> That's because, for all his many other failings, Boris isn't a complete idiot, and can see the writing on the wall - that, no matter what the Brexit campaign does from here, they're ....ed. He's just letting Gove take the bullet in his place.



Yup. The most optimistic picture I can think of would be Gove taking over, dragging his heels over enacting article 50, but doing it and making a decent job of negotiations; then in 2020, Boris steps in.


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## narad (Jul 1, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> Yup. The most optimistic picture I can think of would be Gove taking over, dragging his heels over enacting article 50, but doing it and making a decent job of negotiations; then in 2020, Boris steps in.



Why do you want Boris in?


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## P-Ride (Jul 1, 2016)

narad said:


> Why do you want Boris in?



Of the potential candidates for Tory leadership, I feel he is genuinely enthused by business and entrepreneurialism; that he is optimistic about Britain's prospects outside the EU and has demonstrated both his ability to win elections and act in an ambassadorial role.


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## Andromalia (Jul 1, 2016)

He was also shown to be a pathological liar at various points in his career, not sure you'd want that.


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## bostjan (Jul 1, 2016)

Drew said:


> That's because, for all his many other failings, Boris isn't a complete idiot, and can see the writing on the wall - that, no matter what the Brexit campaign does from here, they're ....ed. He's just letting Gove take the bullet in his place.



Somebody hire Drew to run political campaigns somewhere!


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## StevenC (Jul 1, 2016)

Andromalia said:


> He was also shown to be a pathological liar at various points in his career, not sure you'd want that.



Meet the Tories...


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## Drew (Jul 1, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Somebody hire Drew to run political campaigns somewhere!



 Baaaaaaad idea.


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## oc616 (Jul 1, 2016)

About sums it up.


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## celticelk (Jul 1, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> Of the potential candidates for Tory leadership, I feel he is genuinely enthused by business and entrepreneurialism; that he is optimistic about Britain's prospects outside the EU and has demonstrated both his ability to win elections and *act in an ambassadorial role*.



I'm not deeply familiar with British politicians, but aren't we talking about the same guy who insulted the entire EU Parliament to their faces in a speech this week?


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## oc616 (Jul 1, 2016)

celticelk said:


> I'm not deeply familiar with British politicians, but aren't we talking about the same guy who insulted the entire EU Parliament to their faces in a speech this week?



No, that's Nigel Farage of UKIP. Boris is the former Mayor of London.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jul 4, 2016)

oc616 said:


> No, that's Nigel Farage of UKIP. Boris is the former Mayor of London.



And both have quit in a way or another. Boris has announced he will not run for PM position, although he was the top candidate, and a few hours ago, Nigel Farage resigned as UKIP leader!!!!! You'd think these 2 figures would have done that if the Brexit vote was a "NO".

Anyone care to explain?


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## StevenC (Jul 4, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> And both have quit in a way or another. Boris has announced he will not run for PM position, although he was the top candidate, and a few hours ago, Nigel Farage resigned as UKIP leader!!!!! You'd think these 2 figures would have done that if the Brexit vote was a "NO".
> 
> Anyone care to explain?



Boris doesn't have faith in the Brexit as an actual good idea. A win for Boris would be a close loss for Leave, and then becoming party leader in 2020. Farage said he completed his part by getting the Brexit referendum win, and doesn't have any more to do. UKIP is tiny, so if he loses it doesn't matter, but if he wins he can go out on a high.


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## Drew (Jul 5, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> And both have quit in a way or another. Boris has announced he will not run for PM position, although he was the top candidate, and a few hours ago, Nigel Farage resigned as UKIP leader!!!!! You'd think these 2 figures would have done that if the Brexit vote was a "NO".
> 
> Anyone care to explain?



...that they're learning a "Leave" vote was a poison pill, and neither of them wants to swallow it?


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## Rook (Jul 5, 2016)

Nigel Farage has absolutely no authority, isn't even an MP, and his party only has one MP who doesn't even like him. People are making him leaving sound like he's jumping ship, but they're giving him too much credit. He never had - and was never going to have - any sway on the resulting negotiations post brexit. Him 'staying' is meaningless, like others have said, he got what he came for, now he just needs to give UKIP a chance to become a credible party; I'm not sure it will either way. We need to remember Farage wasn't actually part of the official leave campaign.

Boris left because the people he had backing him decided actually they weren't going to back him. So rather than standing and failing, he took himself out of the running. His key support, Michael Gove (who was also part of the official leave campaign) decided - despite his repeatedly saying he never wants to be leader - to stand for leader, somewhat betraying Boris. To suggest that all the brexiteers have 'run away having realised the err of their ways' is daft, not only did Michael Gove stand, he also didn't get voted for by a party which is I believe majority brexit supporting MP's.

It's facile to suggest that Farage, Boris and Gove were the only people who wanted Brexit. Even May was eurosceptic and in her own words only decided 'on balance' that she was remain, she could see a convincing argument either way, which is why I actually think she's in a good position to lead.

I also just wanted to add that if anyone thinks that the currency and stock market falling after nearly 2 weeks is proof that Brexit was wrong, the economists were right, and that nobody on the leave side expected this is a ridiculous oversimplification. All of these things are caused purely by uncertainty, uncertainty is caused by the fact the negotiations haven't happened yet, and this was always going to be the case. In a number of months time when they start to announce 'the deal' and start to talk about arrangements they make with other countries - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India etc etc - things will start to normalise.

I think we need to get a new leader and negotiations starting as quickly as possible so we can get back to where we were and stop worrying 'normal' people with all the continuing, divisive fear mongering.


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## Drew (Jul 5, 2016)

Rook said:


> I also just wanted to add that if anyone thinks that the currency and stock market falling after nearly 2 weeks is proof that Brexit was wrong, the economists were right, and that nobody on the leave side expected this is a ridiculous oversimplification. All of these things are caused purely by uncertainty, uncertainty is caused by the fact the negotiations haven't happened yet, and this was always going to be the case. In a number of months time when they start to announce 'the deal' and start to talk about arrangements they make with other countries - Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India etc etc - things will start to normalise.



Well, like anything, there's a LOT of factors to take into account here. but, I'd say that the fact one of the things stabilizing the markets a little this morning, after the pound fell to a new 31-year-low, was that Carney came out and lowered capital reserve requirements to allow banks greater ability to make emergency lending, saying that "some of the Brexit risks have begun to materialize," and that he didn't want to see a repeat of the mistakes of 2007-2008 and the tight lending conditions that made the economic damage worse is hardly encouraging. 

Honestly, the fact that you've seen almost a 15% depreciation in the pound since the Brexit crisis may actually be the biggest cause for _hope_ for the British economy right now - at this rate, if the pound keeps trading off, British labor just became 15% more competitive globally and maybe some of those manufacturing jobs WILL come back.


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## Rook (Jul 5, 2016)

While I realise your tongue was firmly in cheek there, it's true. The company I work for buys and sells in dollars too, and the UK only accounts for 10% of our global business - we're laughing.

Carney just needs to chill out in my opinion. Why on earth he saw any need to tell people the other day he was considering quantitative easing is just beyond me. Who was that supposed to help? He may as well have just come out holding a big sign saying 'sell your sterling' haha.

If our currency had fallen to a 30 year low without something like Brexit it would be a worry, but since our currency values these days are firmly a measure of people buying and selling currency itself from the comfort of their £1,000 office chairs and Italian suits, all it shows is that those people aren't looking at the pound right now saying 'I think I'll make a relatively short term profit on that', and that's because we haven't publicly shown anything that's going to stimulate growth yet. We couldn't have a Brexit 'plan' because the government who would have to make that plan was pro remain and making a plan would dignify the opposing view - if they did it properly they might as well hang a billboard for Brexit and see themselves out from the start.

Unfortunately we get lumped with a few months of this rubbish and a few years of uncertainty as a result.

Assuming we ever actual end up leaving...


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## Drew (Jul 6, 2016)

Rook said:


> While I realise your tongue was firmly in cheek there, it's true. The company I work for buys and sells in dollars too, and the UK only accounts for 10% of our global business - we're laughing.
> 
> Carney just needs to chill out in my opinion. Why on earth he saw any need to tell people the other day he was considering quantitative easing is just beyond me. Who was that supposed to help? He may as well have just come out holding a big sign saying 'sell your sterling' haha.
> 
> ...



Well, there's a little more to it than that... Currencies don't just move because of the presence of speculators - you're correct to point out that they're a commodity like any other, and they respond to the laws of supply and demand like any other commodity. 

So, keeping that in mind, the main reason the international market needs pounds, is to pay for goods or services that are denominated in pounds. The collapse of the pound, with no other factors in play like changes in interest rate policies, is a pretty good indicator that either the international community expects to be doing a lot less business with UK firms in coming months, or, maybe a little more charitably, that the international community is suddenly very unsure if they'll be doing the business with UK firms that the FX rate had previously priced in. 

In other words, Brexit is likely to be VERY bad for international trade for thw UK, which I think is a pretty common-sense conclusion from stepping out of a free trade zone.


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## Rook (Jul 6, 2016)

I half agree... First, you've very much simplified what I was saying based on my silly description of currency traders, regardless of motive, as people who make money from it. I'm very aware that people buying currency aren't just FX traders on a trading floor, as I alluded to earlier our business is very much an international one.

While you could draw the conclusion you have, it being 'very bad for international trade', which I don't think is actually true in the medium term onward. A simpler explanation is simply that they think it'll drop further. The initial shock's easily explained by the vote not going the way people expected, causing people to short their trades and panic selling. It started to recover, then Mark Carney said 'I'm going to create inflation', which basically means 'if you buy sterling now, you lose money if you sell any time between now and once it's recovered from my silly quantitative easing policy which I probably won't end up introducing, I'm just trying to appear decisive' hahaha. Idiot.

As I say though, we're a few years off knowing how this has really all panned out. I'd love the leadership to sort itself out and start announcing talks with the queue of commonwealth countries who want to talk trade though.


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## 1b4n3z (Jul 7, 2016)

I wonder about the attack on Carney which apparently went underway even before the vote? The BoE chief is just telling things as they are - property investment falling -> funds (and banks) threatened (but in better shape than before the 08 crisis) and economy growth slowing down thanks to postponed investment. Just as predicted I gather. Since there is no functional government - and they couldn't kick start growth anyway based on previous experience - it has to be the Bank doing something. Carney dislikes negative interest rates so it's QE or something. Doesn't create inflation unless there is excess demand for credit


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## Nick (Jul 7, 2016)

P-Ride said:


> Of the potential candidates for Tory leadership, I feel he is genuinely enthused by business and entrepreneurialism; that he is optimistic about Britain's prospects outside the EU and has demonstrated both his ability to win elections and act in an ambassadorial role.



are you drunk?!


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## P-Ride (Jul 7, 2016)

Nick said:


> are you drunk?!



No. My comments are in context of Boris against the other potential Conservative candidates, as well as Corbyn - the only Labour candidate.

Hardly an illustrious set; but within them, I see no-one else who has demonstrated both the ability to win elections and act in some ambassadorial capacity.


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## Drew (Jul 7, 2016)

Rook said:


> I half agree... First, you've very much simplified what I was saying based on my silly description of currency traders, regardless of motive, as people who make money from it. I'm very aware that people buying currency aren't just FX traders on a trading floor, as I alluded to earlier our business is very much an international one.
> 
> While you could draw the conclusion you have, it being 'very bad for international trade', which I don't think is actually true in the medium term onward. A simpler explanation is simply that they think it'll drop further. The initial shock's easily explained by the vote not going the way people expected, causing people to short their trades and panic selling. It started to recover, then Mark Carney said 'I'm going to create inflation', which basically means 'if you buy sterling now, you lose money if you sell any time between now and once it's recovered from my silly quantitative easing policy which I probably won't end up introducing, I'm just trying to appear decisive' hahaha. Idiot.
> 
> As I say though, we're a few years off knowing how this has really all panned out. I'd love the leadership to sort itself out and start announcing talks with the queue of commonwealth countries who want to talk trade though.



Not really - faced with deteriorating credit liquidity, he lowered capital requirements to facilitate bank lending. That's not "trying to create inflation," that's trying to keep the financial markets from seizing up. 

The global reaction was that he DID help calm the markets, even if you personally disagree.


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## Rook (Jul 8, 2016)

I'm not referring to that, I'm referring to his announcement that he 'might use a quantitative easing fiscal policy'.


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