# Any help would be helpful



## malin (May 3, 2010)

I mostly focus on my hear when I come up with stuff but I tried to take out the theory from this little lick. This lick was suppose to be in the key of B Major but I ended up not following it..I want to know why It still sounds good while I play some note out of key.

E----------------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------12------------------------------------------------
G---------8--------------------6-4---------6-4/16---------------------
D---9-8-------9-8--------7-6---------7-6----------4---4-2-0----------
A-------9---------9----------7-----------7----------5-------2-0-------
E-7---------7----------5-----------5-------------3--------------------

On the first lick I could play a Bmaj7 since I play in the key of B major. If I only take the notes B, F#, B flat, E Flat. I could also do Bsus4 since B, F#, B, E.

I flatten the A for the next part I could play a Amaj7 if I stick to A, E, A flat and C# or I could take the C# and replace it with the B and I would get Amaj7sus2.

I flatten the the G and it would be the kind of chord again...Gmaj7 or Gmaj7sus2

I'd like to know why it can sound good..and if I can compose more chord that could extend more licks.

I'm trying hard to understand but the theory is pretty big...sorry for my english! I'm french 

I'd like to write song but I have no idea how to compose a good chord progressions...I'd like to get ideas and tips


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 4, 2010)

malin said:


> I mostly focus on my hear when I come up with stuff but I tried to take out the theory from this little lick. This lick was suppose to be in the key of B Major but I ended up not following it..I want to know why It still sounds good while I play some note out of key.



You don't have to be in a key for something to sound good. In fact, ever since we've had a concept of key, we've pushed out of it. Let's take a look at what you have.




> On the first lick I could play a Bmaj7 since I play in the key of B major. If I only take the notes B, F#, B flat, E Flat. I could also do Bsus4 since B, F#, B, E.
> 
> I flatten the A for the next part I could play a Amaj7 if I stick to A, E, A flat and C# or I could take the C# and replace it with the B and I would get Amaj7sus2.
> 
> ...



You have the right idea about your chords, but I would advise staying away from thinking of sus4, sus2, or any sus. The first lick contains the notes B D# F# A#, which is Bmaj7. The second lick contains A B C# E G#. You might be tempted to call that B a sus2 or even a 9, but it doesn't sound like it to me. It's just a nonchord tone. The chord itself is Amaj7 (Amaj7sus2 would be A B E G#). Next chord, same idea. You have G A B D E F#, but that A and E are just passing tones. The chord is Gmaj7.


```
E----------------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------12------------------------------------------------
G---------8--------------------6-4---------6-4/16---------------------
D---9-8-------9-8--------7-6---------7-6----------4---4-2-0----------
A-------9---------9----------7-----------7----------5-------2-0-------
E-7---------7----------5-----------5-------------3--------------------
---Bmaj7>>>>>>>>>>>>>][Amaj7>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>][Gmaj7>>>>>>>>>>>>]
```

So, the phrase goes Bmaj7 Amaj7 Gmaj7; it's a 'real' sequence. If we wanted to continue this, it could go Fmaj7, Ebmaj7, Dbmaj7, etc... Composers have been doing this for hundreds of years.




> I'd like to write song but I have no idea how to compose a good chord progressions...I'd like to get ideas and tips



This is a big subject, but I can give you some tips. Do you know how to use the Roman numeral system? (I ii iii IV V vi vii°)



> I'm trying hard to understand but the theory is pretty big...sorry for my english! I'm french



Je parle un peu de français, s'il te plait. Mais je ne sais pas si je peux traduire tous les mots de théorie musicale. 
Probablement, je peux t'aider plus en anglais. Votre anglais est mieux que mon français.


----------



## malin (May 4, 2010)

If you have time,

Can you explain the roman numeral thing 

So far I wasnt so wrong but I'd like to get deeper in this stuff


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 5, 2010)

You already seem to know how to spell chords, so I'll skip that explanation. As you probably know, within any given key, there are seven diatonic notes. If you've ever heard about harmonizing a scale, this is how you do it: if you stack diatonic thirds on top of every note in the scale, then you end up with a chord on every scale degree. We will represent these chords with the formula I ii iii IV V vi vii°; uppercase numerals represent major chords, lowercase numerals represent minor chords, and lowercase with '°' represents diminished chords. To find out why this is, let's go through the process.

Let's take the F major scale: F G A Bb C D E

We start at F. A third up from F is A, and a third up from A is C. Altogether, F A C spells an F chord. Because it's the first chord of the key, and because it's major, we will call it I.

Same thing with G. A third up from G is Bb, and a third up from Bb is D. G Bb D is Gm, and it's the second chord of the key, so we'll call it ii.

If you follow the same pattern for every note of the scale, you'll eventually end up at E, which you harmonize E G Bb, which is Edim, represented by vii°. This is a graphic that breaks down all the chords in F:











The story is the same with the minor scales, but it's just a little different. As you probably know, there are three forms of the minor: the natural minor, harmonic minor, and melodic minor.

F Natural Minor: F G Ab Bb C Db Eb
F Harmonic Minor: F G Ab Bb C Db E
F Melodic Minor: F G Ab Bb C D E

As there are three different scales, you can expect three different harmonizations:

Natural minor: i ii° III iv v VI VII (VII is sometimes called bVII)
Fm Gdim Ab Bbm Cm Db Eb






Harmonic minor: i ii° III+ iv V VI vii° ("+" means that the chord is augmented)
Fm Gdim AbAug Bbm C Db Edim






Melodic minor: i ii III+ IV V vi° vii° (vi° is sometimes called #vi°)
Fm Gm AbAug Bb C Ddim Edim







Most songs in minor keys tend to use the harmonic minor, but we tend to use the III chord rather than III+, so the harmonization looks like i ii°.III iv V VI vii°, with #vi and bVII indicating the melodic and natural minor.












This doesn't apply just to F, though. Any major or minor key will have the same patterns.

C major: C D E F G A B; C Dm Em F G Am Bdim; I ii iii IV V vi vii°
D major: D E F# G A B C#; D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim; I ii iii IV V vi vii°
Db major: Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C; Db Ebm Fm Gb Ab Bbm Cdim; I ii iii IV V vi vii°

C minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb; Cm Ddim Eb Fm G Ab Bdim (G and Bdim are from the harmonic minor); i ii° III iv V VI vii°
D minor: D E F G A Bb C; Dm Edim F Gm A Bb C#dim; i ii° III iv V VI vii°
Db minor: Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bbb Cb; Dbm Ebdim Fb Gbm Ab Bbb Cdim; i ii° III iv V VI vii°



Do you understand so far?


----------



## malin (May 6, 2010)

I'll re read to make sure I understand but I did study this but in french! If you care to continue..I would greatly appreciate!!!!


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 7, 2010)

Cool, so we are kind of on the same page.

There are three basic kinds of chord progressions: circle of fifths, linear, and progression by third. This is a tool that helps you to construct diatonic circle of fifths progressions:










Notice that IV and ii (or iv and ii°) are in a bracket, and V and vii° are in another bracket. That means that they substitute for one another. You can also go from one to the other, but if you do that, you'll usually want to go IV-ii, not ii-IV, because ii-IV usually sounds like you're going to the same chord.

Linear progressions are pretty self-explanatory. These are progressions that go up or down the scale. This would be something like I ii iii ii I, or I vii° vi V. Your Bmaj7 Amaj7 Gmaj7 progression would be considered linear, but it's not diatonic.

Finally, there are progressions by third. These usually look like I vi I, or I iii I, or IV vi, etc. Usually, it's just between two chords at a time. Sometimes, you'll see something like I iii V. Diatonic progressions like this are more likely circle of fifths progressions. If you consider iii to be a substitute for I, the progression I just listed is just I V. Something like vi IV ii falls right on the diatonic circle of fifths, too. ii IV vi, however, is clearly a progression by third.

Of course, you can mix these progressions together to get the features from each style within a larger progression.



I should point out that the goal of any tonal progression is I (or i). The tonic is where we naturally hear a resting place in harmonic music. We arrive at the tonic by 'cadences'. The most common cadence is the V-I (or vii°-I) cadence. In harmony books, this is called an 'authentic cadence'.

There are a bunch of other cadences, including the plagal cadence (IV-I, or ii-I), the deceptive cadence (V-vi), and the half cadence. You'll notice that the deceptive cadence goes to vi instead of I. This sets up our ear to think that the tonic is coming, but then lets the music continue. It's a common way to prolong a progression. The half cadence simply ends at V. Here are a couple examples of half cadences:


The last three chords, at 3:49, are I IV V.


At 2:09, the phrase ends on V.


You'll notice that I grouped ii-I with plagal cadences, because ii substitutes for IV. In linear progressions, it's just a ii-I cadence. In fact, it's not uncommon to see ii-bII-I, but I'll get to that later.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

From there, we can add additional notes to a progression through a number of means. The most obvious way is to stay diatonic and add extensions to the existing triads. Here is the chord scale with sevenths:

Major: I&#8710; ii7 iii7 IV&#8710; V7 vi7 viiø7
Minor: i7 iiø7 III&#8710; iv7 V7 VI&#8710; vii°7

From the natural minor: v7, bVII7
From the harmonic minor: i&#8710;, III+&#8710;
From the melodic minor: ii7, III+&#8710;, IV7, #viø7 

'&#8710;' is the symbol for a major seventh; not everybody uses it, but I like to. You'll typically see Imaj7 or IM7. I've also seen 'I7', but I don't like that notation, because it implies that the I chord is dominant (C E G Bb, instead of C E G B).

'7' is the interval of a minor seventh. When attached to a major chord, like V7 or bVII7, it makes the chord quality dominant (such as F7 - F A C Eb). When attached to a minor chord, it makes it a m7 chord (like Fm7 - F Ab C Eb).

'ø7' is the symbol for 'half-diminished', or 'm7b5'. iiø7 in the key of D, for example, is Em7b5 - E G Bb D.

'°7' is a fully diminished chord. This means that the chord is made up completely of minor thirds. For example, C°7 - C Eb Gb Bbb.


You can, of course, add diatonic extensions all the way up to the thirteenth.

Major:
I - maj7, maj9, maj11, maj13
ii - m7, m9, m11, m13
iii - m7, m7(b9), m11(b9), m7(b9b13)
IV - maj7, maj9, maj7(#11), maj13(#11)
V - 7, 9, 11, 13
vi - m7, m9, m11, m7(b13)
vii° - m7b5, m7(b5b9), m11(b5b9), m7(b5b9b13) < Extensions are rarely added to m7b5 chords. m9b5 also occurs.

Minor:
i - m7, m9, m11, m7(b13) < imaj7 is also used, but not as much. 
ii° - m7b5, m7(b5b9), m11(b5b9), m13(b5b9)
III - maj7, maj9, maj11, maj13
iv - m7, m9, [m11 or m7(#11), depends on what you want], m13
V - 7, 7(b9), 11(b9), 7(b9b13)
VI - maj7, maj9, maj7(#11), maj13(#11)
vii° - °7, °7(b9) [also °9]


Extensions can get a little iffy, and it requires an understanding of where the extension is coming from to decide which to use.

I'm going to try to write something about chromaticism tonight, but I have to get up early, so that might have to wait.


----------



## malin (May 7, 2010)

Now you lost me but I'll re read and my way to learn is to compose something from what you wrote. This way I can clearly understand how it works...its like doing math you have all the formulas but you need to apply them to problems to understand how they work!

You are really helpful!


----------



## malin (May 7, 2010)

OK well I have tried to understand and put it to work (I kept the examples in C major and A minor since its the most basic scales)

Major Progression (C):

Em Am F Dm Bdim G C

Minor Progression (A):

G C F Dm Bdim Gdim Em Am

I'm confuse with all the arrows...if you have time can you make some progression in C major and A minor to reflect the arrows and substition. This is really the only part that is confusing me! I see many possiblity with the progressions


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 7, 2010)

The arrows show where you can go from each chord, and you can go anywhere from I. For instance, instead of going I iii vi IV V I, you can go I iii IV V I. Or I IV I V vi ii V I.

So, here are those progressions in C and Am:

C major:
I iii vi IV V I - C Em Am F G C
I iii IV V I - C Em F G C
I IV I V vi ii V I - C F C G Am Dm G C

A minor:
i III VI iv V i - Am C F Dm E Am
i III iv V i - Am C Dm E Am
i iv i V VI iiø7 V i - Am Dm Am E F Bm7b5 E Am


Let's take a simple progression: I IV V I, C F G C

If we wanted to substitute, we could change the IV to ii, and the V to vii°, which would give us I ii vii° I, C Dm B° C

Or we could just change IV to ii. I ii V I - C Dm G C

If you wanted to just change the V to vii°, you can do that, too. I IV vii° I - C F Bdim C
Only problem with that one is that the root movement of IV-vii° is a tritone, so you don't see it a lot, unless one of the chords is in inversion.



The opening tapping lick is Am Em Am E Am, or i v i V i. When the main riff comes in after that, the chords are A5 D5 E5 Eb5. The implied key is D minor, but as distortion makes fully voiced chords muddy, it's typical to see open fifths in metal. The progression there is V i ii bII.
ii° is diatonic in minor keys, but perfect fifths sound heavier played low like that, so it's not uncommon to see tritones altered to be perfect fifths.

Regarding that bII, consider it a substitute for ii or IV. In classical music, bII is known as a 'neapolitan' chord, and is sometimes notated as 'N'. So, if you see bII or N, they are the same thing. They basically come right before a V chord. They are remarkably cliché and can get tiresome after a while.


At 0:32, the chord progression is Dm Gm Eb A Dm, or i iv N V i. It happens again at 2:09, and 8:22. They used that progression so many times in that movie, I nearly puked.


----------



## malin (May 7, 2010)

Your really hitting the nail on my problems with theory but grasping all this stuff is not that easy. I bet we didnt even hit the beginning yet...


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 7, 2010)

Thanks. I love doing this kind of thing, so keep the questions coming. And yes, you're right: we've barely scratched the surface. Most popular music will follow the progressions I've talked about so far, with the occasional borrowed chord (which comes later). I'll talk about secondary dominants and modulation after I get home later.


----------



## malin (May 7, 2010)

Well I'd like to know how to create beautiful chord progression like Steve Vai, Andy Timmons...but that would involve chords with extension. I know I cant just throw them out there since it will sound...like shit. I really dig sounds like Eadd9 and Esus#11

--0--
--0--
--1--
--4--
--2--
--0--

--0--
--0--
--3--
--4--
--2--
--0--

The problems is that I cant create a nice progression that involves sounds like theses. Do you understand where I'm going so far?


----------



## malin (May 7, 2010)

well I came up with some chords stuff that I ends perfectly for the riff I wrtoe earlier

-------0------------------------4---2----0---9---11--12-------
-------0--0---0---0---0--------5---5----4---7---9---12-------
8---4--6--8---6---3---3--------6---4----6---6---8---9--------
9---7--8--6---4---4---4--------7---2----6---8---9---9--------
7---4--6--4---2---6---2--------0---2--------------------------
7---4--x--x---0---x---0-------------0-------------------------

I like this kind of sound and I only follow my ear when I wrote that...


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 8, 2010)

malin said:


> Well I'd like to know how to create beautiful chord progression like Steve Vai, Andy Timmons...but that would involve chords with extension. I know I cant just throw them out there since it will sound...like shit. I really dig sounds like Eadd9 and Esus#11
> 
> --0--
> --0--
> ...



If you would like, post a tune that you want to sound like, and we can analyze it to the best of our ability.

You can add extensions where ever you want. Just remember that you must have these things to make an extended chord: Root, third, seventh + extension. You'll hear people say "don't play roots", but that's only because they're operating under a band situation, in which a bassist or keyboardist will be playing the roots; it's more of an orchestration concept.

There are some cases when you'll want to omit the third, such as in a maj11 chord, where there is a minor ninth between the third and eleventh. In a maj7(#11) chord, that dissonance is removed, which allows for both a third and a #11 in the chord. In a m11 chord, having the b3 and 11 is perfectly acceptable.

Keep in mind that these 'rules' are broken all the time, and you don't have to follow any of it. Just know what you're doing.



malin said:


> well I came up with some chords stuff that I ends perfectly for the riff I wrtoe earlier
> 
> -------0------------------------4---2----0---9---11--12-------
> -------0--0---0---0---0--------5---5----4---7---9---12-------
> ...



So, that first group of chords is Emaj7/B, G#m11(b9), Bmaj11/D#, G#m11/D#, Emaj13, Bmaj7/D#, Emaj11.

The second group is Amaj7, Esub2, C#m11, A#, G#m/B, E5.

So, let's take a look at what you have. In the first part of that example you gave me, there's a lot of E, G#, B. That's root movement by third. If we look at major/minor keys, this is in the key of B major. However, I think you are hearing it in E. But there's no Bmaj7 in the key of E major, is there? This is because you're in E lydian. I can tell you more about modal keys, if you'd like. That was supposed to come a bit later, but we can get into it now. Really quickly, since I'm going to be talking about it in a second, this is the chord scale for E lydian:

Emaj7 F#7 G#m7 A#m7b5 Bmaj7 C#m7 D#m7

I&#8710; II7 iii7 #ivø7 V&#8710; vi7 vii7

The second grouping is the same sort of thing: you're moving around a third-based pattern, A# C# E G#.

E G# B spells E, the I in E lydian, and A# C# E G# spells A#m7b5, the #ivø7.
Essentially, what you are doing is outlining the I and #iv by building chords off of their members. You also seem to like this quintal sound:


```
e-
b-
G-7
D-5
A-3
E-
```

I might suggest exploring ideas like this:


```
e-
b-
G----------6-7-6
D--------7-------7
A-----5-------------5
E--3
```


----------



## malin (May 8, 2010)

Now I'm lost 

I'll re read and re read but yes indeed I'm hearing it in E lydian like you said


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 8, 2010)

It's kind of an involved idea. Let's say that your chord progression is Emaj7 A#m7b5 Emaj7, I #iv I. Simple progression, only two chords. What you were doing was extending that progression by putting more chords on each chord. It's like you're spelling the chord with the roots of other chords. So, E major, E G# B, would have the roots of Emaj7, G#m7, and Bmaj7.

So this is the progression on the I: Emaj7 G#m7 Bmaj7 G#m7 Emaj7 Bmaj7 Emaj7

Then, you actually go into A lydian for a few chords: Amaj7 Emaj7 C#m7, the roots are A C# E, an A major chord.

The A# is the #IV in E. These three chords are back in E lydian: A# G#m7 Emaj7


----------



## malin (May 8, 2010)

Seems like your jumping into modes


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 8, 2010)

Just for now. If you want, I can continue on with modes, or I can talk about modulation and chromaticism.


----------



## malin (May 8, 2010)

modulation plz!


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 8, 2010)

Alright. Really quickly, this is the circle of fifths:






It tells you how many accidentals are in a given key. If you want the key of D major, you can see that it has two sharps in it. If you want Eb minor, you can see that it has six flats. If you don't know, sharps and flats are added according to an order.

Sharps are added F C G D A E B.
Flats are added B E A D G C F.

So, the key of D major has two sharps, and those two sharps will be F# and C#.
The key of Eb minor has six flats, and those flats will be Bb Eb Ab Db Gb Cb

If you spell out the D major scale, it's D E F# G A B C#.
If you spell out Eb minor, it's Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb Db.

Say you wanted to find the key with four sharps. Those sharps are F#, C#, G#, and D#. If you find that on the circle of fifths, it's either the key of E major or C# minor.

I suspect that you already know about this, but it pertains to what we'll be talking about, so I thought I'd bring it up.



-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now, I'm going to talk about secondary dominants. This isn't modulation, but we need to have this before we continue on. You can briefly "tonicize" a note in any scale by preceding it with a dominant chord. Let's say that we have this I iii IV ii V7 I progression in E major:

E G#m A F#m B7 E

To spice up the progression a little, we can insert the V7 of the next chord. Let's say we wanted to tonicize F#m. What we'll do is pretend that we're in F# minor, and put C#7 before the F#m chord. So, our progression now reads:

E G#m A C#7 F#m B7 E

When we assign Roman numerals to the chords, there's no C#7 in the key of E, so what do we do? We're thinking of it as V7 in the key of F#m, so we can call V7/F#m. And, since F#m is the ii in E, we can go further and call it V7/ii.

Our analysis ends up being I iii IV V7/ii ii V7 I

You can do this with any chord in the key, except for the vii° (because it is dissonant). We'll stick with E major here:
V7/ii - C#7
V7/iii - D#7
V7/IV - E7
V7/V - F#7
V7/vi - G#7



If you want to do it in the key of C, it's easier to see.

V7/ii - A7
V7/iii - B7
V7/IV - C7
V7/V - D7
V7/vi - E7


In jazz theory, instead of saying V7/V, they usually write II7, if that helps you understand. V7/vi would be III7, and so on.

Does this make sense?


----------



## malin (May 8, 2010)

Its a bit complicated but could you rewrite the chords but with the notes in them...I'm haveing a hard time figuring it out


----------



## malin (May 8, 2010)

ok where does the C#7 come form the F#minor scale? once I know this, I'll be all set


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 8, 2010)

```
E G#m A C#7 F#m B7 E

I     - E   - E G# B
iii   - G#m - G# B D#
IV    - A   - A C# E
[color=red]V7/ii - C#7 - C# E# G# B[/color] This chord leads to the next chord, F#m. Think of C#7-F#m as a V-i progression.
ii    - F#m - F# A C#
V7    - B7  - B D# F# A
I     - E   - E G# B
```


F# harmonic minor: F# G# A B C# D E#

i7 iiø7 III&#8710; iv7 V7 VI&#8710; vii°7

F#m G#m7b5 Amaj7 Bm7 C#7 Dmaj7 E#°7

You're pretending like you're in the key of F#m for one chord. Then, everything else is in E.


----------



## malin (May 9, 2010)

ahhh I get it
Its spycing up the progression!

How would you spyce up this one?

Dsus2, Cmaj7/6, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 9, 2010)

Yep. These V/x chords are called 'secondary dominants'. They belong to keys that are outside of the progression. Let's try a few of them out. First, our analysis:

G major: V IV iii I I

So, we can precede any of those chords with its own V. Our options are:

*V7/V - A7/b]
V7/V V IV iii I I
A7, Dsus2, Cmaj7/6, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2


V7/IV - G7
V V/IV IV iii I I
Dsus2, G7, Cmaj7/6, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2

V7/iii - F#7
V IV V7/iii iii I I
Dsus2, Cmaj7/6, F#7, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2



Out of those three, I would pick the V/iii. However, you can do way more than V/x. If you're thinking of each chord as its own key, then why not do a ii/x, or iii/x? Or even a whole secondary progression? Try this:

Dsus2, Cmaj7/6, C#m7b5, F#7, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2

V IV iiø7/iii V7/iii iii I I


In jazz, they call that back-cycling (although it's used more as an improvisational technique than a compositional one).


We can take it a step further and do something like this:

Dsus2, Cmaj7/6, A7, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2

(Although, I personally prefer A#7, but that comes later.)

V IV V7/V iii I I

What happened there? If you look at those two chords, A7 Bm7, you can analyze them as V7-vi7 in the key of D major. It is a deceptive resolution of a secondary dominant. It's like the deceptive cadence that I described in post #6.*


----------



## malin (May 9, 2010)

:O

I'm speechless

he C#m7b5 really mislead my ear but sound really nice right before the bm7

Let say I'd like to improvise over this progression...for all the chords I can stay in G but what key am I in when we hit C#m7b5

Also can we put D7 right before the Gmaj7?


----------



## malin (May 9, 2010)

You have no idea how much I like this chord right now! The chords I gave you were base on a melodic progression I came up with and wow...I would have never thaught about putting a chord like that since we go out the box (changing key for a moment) put damn I played it to my mom and we both cant describe the feeling we have when this chord hits!

Do you have any books on theory that you would recommend! or I can just continue asking you!


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 9, 2010)

malin said:


> Let say I'd like to improvise over this progression...for all the chords I can stay in G but what key am I in when we hit C#m7b5



B minor. You can also try C#m7b5, C7, Bm. The bII7 is a substitute for the V7. In jazz, bII7 is called a 'tritone substitution'. I can get into the theory of the naming, if you want, but most people just call it bII7.



> Also can we put D7 right before the Gmaj7?



Yes. If you don't like the sound, put a ii or a IV in front of it. Maybe a vi or bVI.



malin said:


> You have no idea how much I like this chord right now! The chords I gave you were base on a melodic progression I came up with and wow...I would have never thaught about putting a chord like that since we go out the box (changing key for a moment) put damn I played it to my mom and we both cant describe the feeling we have when this chord hits!
> 
> Do you have any books on theory that you would recommend! or I can just continue asking you!



You can keep asking me, if you want.

I use Kostka and Payne's Tonal Harmony. It covers basic classical theory pretty well. I'm also writing my own theory book, but it will be a while before it's completed.


----------



## malin (May 9, 2010)

ok over the last progression..what mode could we use over each chord and why


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 10, 2010)

This guy?

Dsus2, Cmaj7/6, C#m7b5, Bm7, Gmaj7, Gsus2

It's all G major, except for that C#m7b5, and maybe Bm7. For C#m7b5-Bm7, you can play B minor, but Bm7 could also be in G major.


----------



## malin (May 10, 2010)

It was for this guy indeed!

any good websites I can let my brain sponge in all the infos!


----------



## malin (May 10, 2010)

Oh and when I jam with people some people say just play in X key and other say follow the modes...I never really understood the follow the mode thingy


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 10, 2010)

Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net
Dolmetsch Online - Music Theory Online Contents
composer's tools

This is what we just talked about: http://musictheoryresources.com/members/FA_sec_dom.htm

And we'll get here soon:
Modulation




malin said:


> Oh and when I jam with people some people say just play in X key and other say follow the modes...I never really understood the follow the mode thingy



Don't know quite what they mean. There are a lot of ways in which musicians communicate, and a lot of musicians who don't have any formal theory training. Consequently, what means one thing to one musician means the complete opposite to another. All this theory stuff is just a language by which we can describe what we are doing, and not everybody is on the same page.


----------



## malin (May 10, 2010)

Fine with me!


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 10, 2010)

I'm going to school in a few minutes, and I won't be home until rather late tonight, so I'm going to start on modulation.

Anyway, what if instead of merely borrowing chords from another key, we kept going in the other key?

C Em G Am B°7 Cmaj7 C7 Dm Bb Gm C7 F

I iii V vi vii°7 I V7/IV... Well, Dm is in the key of C, but if you look at everything else that happens after it, you're in the key of F.

*C Em G Am B°7 Cmaj7 C7* is I iii V vi vii°7 I V7/IV in C.
*C7 Dm Bb Gm C7 F* is V7 vi IV ii V7 I in F.

Ta-da, you're in a new key. This is called a 'chromatic modulation' - it uses a secondary dominant to introduce the new key.

By the way, you can also have secondary diminished chords. Remember that V and vii° substitute for each other. If we replaced C7 with E°7 in that progression, it would serve just the same purpose. We'd call it vii°7/IV.


----------



## malin (May 10, 2010)

Can you re explain this in simple terms...I could really use this!


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 11, 2010)

We start the chord progression in one key, and end it in another. There are a few ways to go about this, which I will get into once you understand this first method.

Let's take this progression:

C Dm G7 C Am B7 E F#m B7 E

The first five chords are in the key of C, but as soon as we hit that B7, we're in the key of E, right? Instead of spicing the chord progression up with secondary dominants, as we did before, we're using them to establish a new key.


----------



## malin (May 11, 2010)

ok I understand that but how did you make the transition!


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 11, 2010)

It all happens on one chord. As soon as we hit B7, we're in E. The difference is, instead of going back to the original key we stay in E. Compare:


```
[color=red]C major[/color] progression with secondary dominant:

[color=red]C Dm G7 C Am[/color][color=green] B7[/color][color=red]     Em G7 C[/color]
[color=red]I ii V7 I vi[/color][color=green] V7/iii[/color][color=red] iii V7 I[/color]



[color=red]C major[/color] progression with modulation to [color=green]E major[/color]:

[color=red]C Dm G7 C Am[/color][color=green] B7 E F#m B7 E[/color]
[color=red]I ii V7 I vi[/color][color=green] V7/iii
    E major: V7 I ii  V7 I[/color]
```


----------



## malin (May 11, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> It all happens on one chord. As soon as we hit B7, we're in E. The difference is, instead of going back to the original key we stay in E. Compare:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


 
perfect I get it now!

I've been reading and looking at the websites you gave me. The practical lesson are really cool but how can we use suspended chords and add9,13 chords in a progression to create tension and release?

Its a really big question


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 11, 2010)

Extended chords, you can stick anywhere. If you want to take that modulating progression we just did and stick a thirteenth on every chord, you're perfectly welcome to do so.

Turn this: C Dm G7 C Am B7 E F#m B7 E
Into this: Cmaj13 Dm13 G13 Cmaj13 Am11(b13) B13 Emaj13 F#m13 B13 Emaj13

The only reason I don't do that in these lessons is that it takes up a lot of space and makes it difficult to read. Adding extensions doesn't change the function of the chord, it just makes the chord more colorful. V-I, V7-I, V9-I, V11-I, V13-I, and all of their variations are still just V-I cadences.

It's the same deal with addX chords. C, C6, Cmaj7, Cadd4, and Cadd2 are all the same function.

As far as suspensions go, theorists group them into what are called 'non-harmonic tones'. These are tones that occur on or around the chord, but are not members of the chord. These are the non-chord tones, according to most theory textbooks:

*Passing tone:* Just fills in the space between two notes. If you were playing a C chord and had the notes C D E in the melody, then D would be a passing tone.

*Neighbor tone:* This just steps away from a chord tone, and back to it. So, once again, if the chord is C, and the melody is C D C, then D is a neighbor tone. If the melody is C B C, B is the neighbor tone.

*Double neighbor (also known as neighbor group):* Sort of like the neighbor tone, but it surrounds the chord tone in both directions. So, if C is your chord, the melody could be C D B C, in which case D and B are the neighbor group.

*Appoggiatura:* This is a note that leaps an interval of a third or larger, and resolves to a chord tone a second away. So, let's say the chord is C again. Our melody is C A G. A is the appoggiatura.

*Escape tone:* Like the appoggiatura, but the other way around; it steps to a non-harmonic tone, then leaps up to a chord tone. So, again, C is the chord. The melody is C B E. B is the escape tone.

*Suspension:* This is a note held over from another chord. Let's say we have G7-C -

G7 - G B F
C - C G F (F is held over from the G7 chord)

Then, the F resolves down to E.

The way I learned, there's another non-chord tone called a retardation, which is like a suspension, but instead of falling to the chord tone, it rises up to a chord tone. Keeping our example of G7-C:

G7 - G B F
C - B G E (B is the retardation, which resolves up to C)

Here's an analysis of a passage with non-harmonic tones:







In jazz theory, not much attention is paid to non-chord tones, which is understandable when you have thirteenth chords, and nearly everything is a chord tone. Suspensions in modern contexts are really chords with substitute members. So, you see Fsus4, and you think F Bb C. But is that F major or F minor? Sus chords obscure the function and identity of the chord. However, like the extended harmonies, you can put them wherever you want, as long as it sounds good. I just show these examples with straight triads and seventh chords so that you can see the identity and function of the chords.


----------



## malin (May 11, 2010)

wow but applyng this kind of stuff is more complex on guitar than on the piano!

when is your book coming out


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 11, 2010)

Yeah, it's a little harder to apply to a single guitar. Solution? Two guitar parts.






However, there's nothing saying you can't do something like this:


```
e-3--10-8    (10 is an appoggiatura.)
b-3-----8
G-4-----9
D-5-----10
A-5-----10
E-3-----8
```


----------



## malin (May 12, 2010)

I love the way its gives a classical feel...since you've been helping me out with all this stuff, I've played way better but we still need to go deeper in modulation


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 12, 2010)

That, we can do. 

We've already covered chromatic modulation by means of a secondary dominant. Next, we'll look at 'common chord modulations'. Those are just what they sound like: there is a chord that is shared between multiple keys that is used to pivot between the two. Keys that are close to each other on the circle of fifths have a lot of chords in common.

G major: G Am Bm C D Em F#°
C major: C Dm Em F G Am B°

G major and C major have the chords C, Em, G, and Am in common.


C major: C Dm Em F G Am B°
F major: F Gm Am Bb C Dm E°

C major and F major share C, Dm, F, and Am.


The same rules apply as before: you have the progression going in one key, then use one of these pivot chords to get to the other.



```
C Em  F  G7 Am Bb Gm C7 F
C major: I iii IV V7 [color=red]vi[/color]
           F major:[color=red] iii[/color] IV ii V7 I
```


----------

