# Laney Ironheart IRT60H review/demo/appreciation



## Guitarjon (May 20, 2020)

I've had my Laney Ironheart IRT60H for a year or two now and I've used it in a bunch of comparison videos but until now I had never done a proper in-depth demo. Before I post the demo, first some talk about this amp.

It's a sturdy head with some cool handles on top. This is a very nice way of doing this imho as I'm never afraid to drop the amp when I carry it. I dig the red light as well and that circular transformer looks interesting. The amp has some cool 'special' features such as a variable wattage control (tbh, it does kind of seem to work like a master volume but I'm not sure), DI outputs on the rear and the 'dynamics' control. I'm also a fan of the push-pull eq's! I love how this allows you to really shape the response of the amp. Pulling the bass out really seems to extend the low-end, making it huge. With the mid control the sound gets a bit less dense in the low-mids and pulling the treble control really makes the amp come forward in the mids/upper-mids.

The on-board pre-boost is a great way to get more gain from the amp and I also like what it does to the overall sound. It kind of makes the distortion a tad more 'smooth' to my ears. Not as aggressive as a tube screamer for example but useful indeed! The clean tones are nice and that channel can be pushed to a good crunch with the boost. The rhythm and lead channels are similar but the lead channel sounds a tad 'thicker' or more dense. 

The reverb is surprisingly nice as well and it sounds quite natural. I guess my favorite thing that the amp can do is a huge modern rhythm sound. It has a nice saturation that fills the spectrum up while leaving some room for other instruments. Does anyone else have one? What do you like to use it for mainly? I also have the IRT Studio and that's a great amp as well. Sounds pretty close to the 60W head tbh.

Here's the demo in various styles:


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 20, 2020)

I need to check this amp one day. I need a bright, dry amp to go with my thicc AF Randall T2


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## lewis (May 20, 2020)

I had the 100 watt.

Such incredible amps. So underrated too.

I also found tube swaps easy on them.
And they look boss


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 20, 2020)

I also just remembered they made a rackmount one with a 300w SS power amp

Would love to hear how that compares to the full-sized tube version.


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## Guitarjon (May 20, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I also just remembered they made a rackmount one with a 300w SS power amp
> 
> Would love to hear how that compares to the full-sized tube version.



Do you mean the SLS version? That one seems cool! I don't know if it has the pull-eq options?? Do you?


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## Edika (May 20, 2020)

I have been really interested in this amp and have my eyes open if I can find one in a good price to pick up. I used to have a Laney VH100R and while I loved the clean channel it was a stupid loud amp and needed quite a bit of volume to really shine as it followed the older Marshall mentality. 

The IRT series seem more modern orientated with getting the dirt sound mainly from the preamp.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 20, 2020)

Guitarjon said:


> Do you mean the SLS version? That one seems cool! I don't know if it has the pull-eq options?? Do you?



Yep, it's the SLS. And it also has all the pull EQs. The shifts and pull deep. 

Just find it funny how they thought the IRT Studio wasn't small enough. So they went SMALLER.  



Edika said:


> I have been really interested in this amp and have my eyes open if I can find one in a good price to pick up. I used to have a Laney VH100R and while I loved the clean channel it was a stupid loud amp and needed quite a bit of volume to really shine as it followed the older Marshall mentality.
> 
> The IRT series seem more modern orientated with getting the dirt sound mainly from the preamp.



Yeah that was the goal. The GH and VH weren't intended to be purely metal amps. They were in the same vein as the JCM900 or JCM2000 series where they were meant to be jacks of all trades with that vintage traditional flair. Also IIRC they were released in 1993 - 1994 so while NOT old, they're not new either.  The Ironheart series was meant to be their all-out brutal metal amp.


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## GoldDragon (May 20, 2020)

My rig is just an sd-1 a nr300 and the irt60h on a xxx cab. I use the built in reverb for space. Usually I would want a delay, but the verb works well to thicken solos.

The built in boost is a clean gain, same as you get from the channel gains. This means. For each channel you can set two gain levels exactly how you want them. It's really a six channel amp, or three channels with two gain levels each.


I set it up with the sd-1 always on with a touch of drive and adjust the sd1 eq to the guitar I'm using. I use the on board boost as my boost pedal, so I always get the character of the sd1, but can switch between rhythm and lead versions of the sd1 on both channels.

This essentially gives my sd1 sound two levels of gain. I don't have to turn off the sd1 for my rhythm, I still get the asymmetrical clipping. Makes it a high gain monster. I'm convinced they designed it to be used this way. Without a boost pedal it has a very open sound.

On rhythm channel all the eq are pushed in. For lead channel, I pull mid and treble to make the sound jump out and cut.

The amp always records well.

The xxx cab is pretty good, but I believe the head would match better with a marshal 1960b. With 75s.

I've owned mine... 6 or 7 years.

The built in attenuator works great. It's not just a master volume.

I have no desire to own any other amp. This has so much gain and eq versatility, and with the attenuator, it always sounds good.

It works so well with the sd-1.

The only thing that bothers me is that channel switching is not midi controllable.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 21, 2020)

Man when did they jack up the prices of the Iron hearts? The 120w is $1500 now.


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## GoldDragon (May 21, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Man when did they jack up the prices of the Iron hearts? The 120w is $1500 now.



I know. 

Its worth it though.


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## GoldDragon (May 21, 2020)

Edika said:


> .
> 
> The IRT series seem more modern orientated with getting the dirt sound mainly from the preamp.



It can get dirt from the preamp or the power amp.

To get power tube distortion, you put the wattage control low, and raise the channel volumes to hit the powe stage harder. The hotter the signal going into the power amp, the more saturation there is.

You can get ACDC drive on the clean channel by doing this. Its almost all power tube distortion.

The only problem with the IRT60h is that there isn't a TON of clean headroom. If you were jamming with a metal drummer and didn't have a PA, there would be a decent amount of power tube saturation to get the volume you need. The 120 probably has more clean headroom.

The IRT is a modern rock amp with a metal aesthetic.


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## Exit Existence (May 21, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Man when did they jack up the prices of the Iron hearts? The 120w is $1500 now.


If I can recall correctly, when Musiciansfriend does 10, 15% off sales their coupon code works for Laney (Which is surprising because usually the excluded brand list for coupons is like literally everything) Just FYI keep your eyes open.


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## Cynicanal (May 21, 2020)

I had one of these for my first high-gain tube amp! Recorded an album with it, too.

When these were about $800, they were one of the best deals in the high-gain amp world... I don't think they're worth the new, higher prices, though. They're not as good sounding as the Marshall Studio Classic in the same price bracket. Like GoldDragon says, they're really designed for driving the power section -- if needed, you can use the "dynamics" knob to keep things tight, even with an overdriven PI tube.

Good sounding amp, but a bit "thin feeling" under the fingers, IME... doesn't fill the room like an Uberschall/Twin Jet will, and it doesn't have the balls of a 2203/2204/Studio Classic, either.


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## Edika (May 21, 2020)

I had a look at the prices in UK and there was no big jump here. Maybe £50-60 since a couple of years ago but not almost going double price as you guys are seeing in the US.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 21, 2020)

Edika said:


> I had a look at the prices in UK and there was no big jump here. Maybe £50-60 since a couple of years ago but not almost going double price as you guys are seeing in the US.



Yeah I just went back in time and they used to be $999.


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## GoldDragon (May 21, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> I had one of these for my first high-gain tube amp! Recorded an album with it, too.
> 
> When these were about $800, they were one of the best deals in the high-gain amp world... I don't think they're worth the new, higher prices, though. They're not as good sounding as the Marshall Studio Classic in the same price bracket. Like GoldDragon says, they're really designed for driving the power section -- if needed, you can use the "dynamics" knob to keep things tight, even with an overdriven PI tube.
> 
> Good sounding amp, but a bit "thin feeling" under the fingers, IME... doesn't fill the room like an Uberschall/Twin Jet will, and it doesn't have the balls of a 2203/2204/Studio Classic, either.



It probably has a better clean than the Marshall. And the EQ is more modern, probably works with downtuned guitars better.

It is also the most versatile amp I've ever owned. Most metal amps cant do the power tube saturation so well. Nor do they have a great clean channel that can be driven with any shade of grit and saturation.

I think its anything but thin, but everyone wants different things. I suppost it doesnt have the same bass and U shaped eq as an Uberschall. And it doesnt have the singing grind of a marshall.


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## Cynicanal (May 21, 2020)

The Studio Classic has an _amazing_ clean on the low-power input. A bit of a pain if you ever use clean and dirty tones in the same song, but if you don't, it's got all of your needs covered.

The "thinness" isn't just in the EQ (you can get it in the ballpark of an Uberschall on the lead channel by pulling the bass and mids knob, and turning the "tone" knob down). It's in the texture and feel. I can't really put it into words, but it just doesn't expand and fill a room with the same kind of size and heft that an Uberschall/TJ (or a Recto or a 6505 for other examples) does. Likewise, the rhythm channel can get you "kind of in the ballpark" of a Marshall if you turn the channel volume way up and the gain down some, but it's just not quite there. I guess that's the overall downside to that kind of versatility -- the Ironheart can do a whole lot of sounds, but it can't do any of them as well as some other amp that specializes in that kind of sound does.


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## op1e (May 21, 2020)

The China tariffs are what's killing the price on these now I believe. I'm considering a used SLS cause I need a good rack power amp with Pres/Res and since they're going in the 500's used on Reverb it just might be the option.


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## GoldDragon (May 21, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> The Studio Classic has an _amazing_ clean on the low-power input. A bit of a pain if you ever use clean and dirty tones in the same song, but if you don't, it's got all of your needs covered.
> 
> The "thinness" isn't just in the EQ (you can get it in the ballpark of an Uberschall on the lead channel by pulling the bass and mids knob, and turning the "tone" knob down). It's in the texture and feel. I can't really put it into words, but it just doesn't expand and fill a room with the same kind of size and heft that an Uberschall/TJ (or a Recto or a 6505 for other examples) does. Likewise, the rhythm channel can get you "kind of in the ballpark" of a Marshall if you turn the channel volume way up and the gain down some, but it's just not quite there. I guess that's the overall downside to that kind of versatility -- the Ironheart can do a whole lot of sounds, but it can't do any of them as well as some other amp that specializes in that kind of sound does.



Like I said earlier, it seems to be almost made to be used with a boost.

I suspect it has one less clipping stage than most high gain amps. It sounds very open and "dry" without much grain or buzz. Kinda glassy but hot. If you put a SD-1 in front, it puts it into 5150 level of saturated gain. Just keep the boost on all the time and use the on board switchable boost to go in and out of high gain.

So why not just get a 5150? Because a 5150 doesn't have the push/pull eq and it doesnt have the power attenuator. And a 5150 can't cop a raging marshall with power tube distortion, at least not at normal levels.

Why not get a marshall? First, I suspect it will need a TAE or reactive load to do what the Ironheart can do at bedroom level. Second, because I need ability to switch between clean and gain. I can tune the gain to have the exact amount of saturation or grind that I want. Clean clean, thick and saturated, or a little grumble.

To get the versatility of the Ironheart in a Marshall, it would need to be a JVM, and you would need a reactive load. About 4K.

It took me quite a few years to figure out the beauty of the amp. At face value I can see how it doesn't match "the sound in many people's head". 

If it was your first high gain tube amp, that means you probably haven't been playing all that long. If I was only playing 5-10 years, this amp probably would have been over my head. I mean to say that I wouldn't have been able to figure out the beauty of the design when I had been playing less than 10 years, I would have just sold it and got a 5150 or DSL.


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## Cynicanal (May 21, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Like I said earlier, it seems to be almost made to be used with a boost.
> 
> I suspect it has one less clipping stage than most high gain amps. It sounds very open and "dry" without much grain or buzz. Kinda glassy but hot. If you put a SD-1 in front, it puts it into 5150 level of saturated gain. Just keep the boost on all the time and use the on board switchable boost to go in and out of high gain.
> 
> ...


Putting a boost pedal in front of the onboard boost doesn't do anything good IME; it just creates all kinds of ugly noise and feedback. I'm not sure whether it has the same number of gain stages as a Recto/5150 (I've always heard that it's got a cathode-driven tone stack but the diagram here [https://media.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/Manual/LANIRT120H_Manual.pdf] seems to contradict that -- you wouldn't use a different triode for the rhythm and lead tone stacks if they were both cathode driven -- and if it's not cathode driven, that puts it at 4 gain stages [not counting the input stage], same as a Recto, SLO, or Uberschall), but either way, adding another boost to the front isn't like adding a gain stage in this case; all that would do is slam the solid-state op-amps of the boost circuit, which isn't what you're aiming to do.

It's true that you'd need an attenuator if you wanted to use a Studio Classic at bedroom levels, but if you can turn it up to even "this won't get the cops called on you in a suburban neighborhood in the afternoon" levels, the 5w setting of the Studio Classic will leave the Ironheart in the dust for that tone (the real discriminator here for your use case is the footswitchable cleans -- _that's_ the part that you're not going to get with a proper 2203 or jumpered 1959SLP sound for ~$1200).

And, you're wrong that I haven't been playing all that long -- around 15 years. I spent a _lot_ of that time doing the solid state + pedal thing (partially because the #1 tone I chased for years was the classic Sunlight Studios tone). Ironically, my main solid state head during those years was an old '80s solid state Laney head, so I was well used to the push-pull EQ knobs long before I got my Ironheart.


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## GoldDragon (May 21, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> Putting a boost pedal in front of the onboard boost doesn't do anything good IME; it just creates all kinds of ugly noise and feedback. I'm not sure whether it has the same number of gain stages as a Recto/5150 (I've always heard that it's got a cathode-driven tone stack but the diagram here [https://media.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/Manual/LANIRT120H_Manual.pdf] seems to contradict that -- you wouldn't use a different triode for the rhythm and lead tone stacks if they were both cathode driven -- and if it's not cathode driven, that puts it at 4 gain stages [not counting the input stage], same as a Recto, SLO, or Uberschall), but either way, adding another boost to the front isn't like adding a gain stage in this case; all that would do is slam the solid-state op-amps of the boost circuit, which isn't what you're aiming to do.
> 
> It's true that you'd need an attenuator if you wanted to use a Studio Classic at bedroom levels, but if you can turn it up to even "this won't get the cops called on you in a suburban neighborhood in the afternoon" levels, the 5w setting of the Studio Classic will leave the Ironheart in the dust for that tone (the real discriminator here for your use case is the footswitchable cleans -- _that's_ the part that you're not going to get with a proper 2203 or jumpered 1959SLP sound for ~$1200).
> 
> And, you're wrong that I haven't been playing all that long -- around 15 years. I spent a _lot_ of that time doing the solid state + pedal thing (partially because the #1 tone I chased for years was the classic Sunlight Studios tone). Ironically, my main solid state head during those years was an old '80s solid state Laney head, so I was well used to the push-pull EQ knobs long before I got my Ironheart.


Your first sentence tells me you don't know how to use it.

A boost pedal with another drive stage adds another layer of clipping distortion. The boost pedal is not to increase level, but to add another clipping stage.

All the input gain stages are additive and can take it into ugly compression. 

The channel gain and boost knob do the same exact thing. The pre gain is the total of those two. 6 + 7, 10 + 3, 9 + 4, all total 13 and will give virtually the same sound. Doesn't matter which knob you use, just as long as the total doesn't go above about 14.


Use a boost pedal at unity gain, then use the onboard boost and gain to set two levels of distortion for each channel. 

The beauty of this design is that you get to choose the flavor of the first clipping stage, and most boost pedals have eq so you can tweak input eq.

Because it has a footswitchable boost you can keep the pedal on always yet still be able to switch between two gain levels. You can choose how close or far apart they are because the onboard boost and channel gains are additive and do the same thing.



It's the ultimate pedal platform. You can get every sound from the amp.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> Putting a boost pedal in front of the onboard boost doesn't do anything good IME; it just creates all kinds of ugly noise and feedback. I'm not sure whether it has the same number of gain stages as a Recto/5150 (I've always heard that it's got a cathode-driven tone stack but the diagram here [https://media.americanmusical.com/ItemFiles/Manual/LANIRT120H_Manual.pdf] seems to contradict that -- you wouldn't use a different triode for the rhythm and lead tone stacks if they were both cathode driven -- and if it's not cathode driven, that puts it at 4 gain stages [not counting the input stage], same as a Recto, SLO, or Uberschall), but either way, adding another boost to the front isn't like adding a gain stage in this case; all that would do is slam the solid-state op-amps of the boost circuit, which isn't what you're aiming to do.
> 
> It's true that you'd need an attenuator if you wanted to use a Studio Classic at bedroom levels, but if you can turn it up to even "this won't get the cops called on you in a suburban neighborhood in the afternoon" levels, the 5w setting of the Studio Classic will leave the Ironheart in the dust for that tone (the real discriminator here for your use case is the footswitchable cleans -- _that's_ the part that you're not going to get with a proper 2203 or jumpered 1959SLP sound for ~$1200).
> 
> And, you're wrong that I haven't been playing all that long -- around 15 years. I spent a _lot_ of that time doing the solid state + pedal thing (partially because the #1 tone I chased for years was the classic Sunlight Studios tone). Ironically, my main solid state head during those years was an old '80s solid state Laney head, so I was well used to the push-pull EQ knobs long before I got my Ironheart.



that diagram is showing the right thing. both halves of the v3 are cathode followers off the single v2b.


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## GoldDragon (May 22, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> And, you're wrong that I haven't been playing all that long -- around 15 years. I spent a _lot_ of that time doing the solid state + pedal thing (partially because the #1 tone I chased for years was the classic Sunlight Studios tone). Ironically, my main solid state head during those years was an old '80s solid state Laney head, so I was well used to the push-pull EQ knobs long before I got my Ironheart.



Amp came out about ten years ago. Chances are you had 5-7 years when you owned it. I'm pretty sure you didn't really understand the gain staging.

Took me 25± years to gain an appreciation for this amp. If I was a novice, guarantee I would have traded it for a 5150.


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## Cynicanal (May 22, 2020)

Nope; I bought mine in October, 2016, about 3 and a half years ago. Like I said, I stayed on the "solid state + pedals" methodology for a _long_ ass time; over a decade, in fact.

@diagrammatiks -- why would you give each channel its own cathode follower? I've never heard of an amp doing that before; usually multi-channel amps feed the tone stacks of all of the channels off of the same CF (Rectos, SLOs, etc. all work that way).


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## Hatchback Of Notre Dame (May 22, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Amp came out about ten years ago. Chances are you had 5-7 years when you owned it. I'm pretty sure you didn't really understand the gain staging.
> 
> Took me 25± years to gain an appreciation for this amp. If I was a novice, guarantee I would have traded it for a 5150.



I like the bedroom volume unboosted 5150III Red channel more than the Laney (boosted or otherwise) under similar circumstances. The 5150III red channel just sounds a bit more articulate to me. I preferred the Laney's clean channel, and also used the onboard reverb quite a bit when I owned it; a better multi-purpose amp than the 5150 (pedal platformer, as you said). These days, my weapon of choice is a Jcm800, but I wouldn't call manually switching inputs and pressing buttons on the back of the amp convenient.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> Nope; I bought mine in October, 2016, about 3 and a half years ago. Like I said, I stayed on the "solid state + pedals" methodology for a _long_ ass time; over a decade, in fact.
> 
> @diagrammatiks -- why would you give each channel its own cathode follower? I've never heard of an amp doing that before; usually multi-channel amps feed the tone stacks of all of the channels off of the same CF (Rectos, SLOs, etc. all work that way).



because it's easier to switch the two tone stacks that way. you can do it with the single relay. and you don't have to share the eq like the old slow between lead and rhythm and you don't need 20 million octocouplers like the mesas. 

I mean I wouldn't that way. 








interesting amp though. Some smart things. Some stupid things. Some things that are just lies. 

par on course for tube amps in 2020.


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## Edika (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> because it's easier to switch the two tone stacks that way. you can do it with the single relay. and you don't have to share the eq like the old slow between lead and rhythm and you don't need 20 million octocouplers like the mesas.
> 
> I mean I wouldn't that way.
> 
> ...



I'm not well versed in electronic circuits but it would be amazing if you could tell us what do you see as smart things, stupid things and lies. I'm genuinely curious as what I'm seeing is just a circuit diagram but can't really understand the logic and design positives or negatives of circuit and amp design.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

Edika said:


> I'm not well versed in electronic circuits but it would be amazing if you could tell us what do you see as smart things, stupid things and lies. I'm genuinely curious as what I'm seeing is just a circuit diagram but can't really understand the logic and design positives or negatives of circuit and amp design.



Actually I don't know if I see any smart things...but it sounds pretty good. 
Looking over the two schematics, the studio actually has almost an entirely different circuit. So I guess actually don't know what the bigger amps sound like.

Stupid things - massively overcomplicated solid state switching network. 

Lies - The watts control is just a post phase inverter volume control and does fuck-all for watts.


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## Edika (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> Actually I don't know if I see any smart things...but it sounds pretty good.
> Looking over the two schematics, the studio actually has almost an entirely different circuit. So I guess actually don't know what the bigger amps sound like.
> 
> Stupid things - massively overcomplicated solid state switching network.
> ...



I wonder if the post phase inverter volume control is similar to most amps boasting something similar. I have a Blackstar S1 200 with a supposedly Dynamic Power Reduction circuit controlled by a pot that reduces the "Wattage" down to 10% with of course in between values. But in every S1 amp they sold the had the same up to 10% reduction that seemed weird. It does reduce the headroom and you do get break up earlier but it seemed kind of fishy. 
Problem is that Blackstar is notorious for not giving away their schematics and only allowing authorized Blackstar techs to do repairs and maintenance on their amps. But I'm guessing it might be something similar as the Laneys.


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## The Thing Upstairs (May 22, 2020)

As someone who owns the Studio Classic, a TAE and a number of amps with excellent bedroom tone, I can confirm that all amps I have played sound and feel better through the TAE. I strongly suspect the IRT would as well.
Sometimes the difference is subtle and of course it’s subjective as to whether it is worth it.
It is worth it to me because it means I can buy any amp I want and I have a clean fx loop and the ideal place to gate if I wish.

Another great video from Jon, I quite like what I hear


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## GoldDragon (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> Lies - The watts control is just a post phase inverter volume control and does fuck-all for watts.



I asked an amp builder on TGP if the watts control was legit (because I was sceptical), if it really was inducing power tube distortion at lower volumes, and he said yes, but I don't remember the explanation. It was 7 years ago.

*I'm not saying you're wrong*, but the majority of time I've used the amp, I run it into an isolation cabinet and use the line out with IRs played through my studio monitors. This lets me really run the amp at 100% through a speaker and listen to what its doing, with and without the wattage control.

The way the amp works in practice is that the higher the volume level from the channels (or the effect loop in) the more power tube saturation there is.

So, I could have a clean sound from the clean channel at the edge of breakup, and as I increase the clean channel volume, not only does the sound get louder, but it starts to get power tube distortion. The wattage control lets you lower the overall volume, while still getting the power tube distortion.

Whether this is actual power tube distortion, or some other trick, idk. But the character of the tube saturation is very different than preamp gain. It rounds out the sound, gives it some grind and resonance, and it feels slower.

I have the 6L6 version of the amp. The IRT studio, the smaller one, uses (I think EL84s), so its power stage and wattage may be completely different.

The wattage control itself may just be a volume control, but the magic is happening with how hard you hit the power section before the power tubes.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> I asked an amp builder on TGP if the watts control was legit (because I was sceptical), if it really was inducing power tube distortion at lower volumes, and he said yes, but I don't remember the explanation. It was 7 years ago.
> 
> *I'm not saying you're wrong*, but the majority of time I've used the amp, I run it into an isolation cabinet and use the line out with IRs played through my studio monitors. This lets me really run the amp at 100% through a speaker and listen to what its doing, with and without the wattage control.
> 
> ...



no it is most assuredly not. There is zero tube saturation happening when you use the wattage control.

This is the classic case of something being named by marketing. Is it controlling wattage. Technically yes in the same way that any volume control controls wattage. the less signal you put in the less signal you get out. 

But there is no power tube distortion happening. All you're hearing is phase inverter distortion. 

- - The wattage control itself may just be a volume control, but the magic is happening with how hard you hit the power section before the power tubes - -

you're statement here is very confusing but technically not incorrect if we understand the phase inverter to be part of the power section. the wattage knob limits any signal going into the power tubes.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

Edika said:


> I wonder if the post phase inverter volume control is similar to most amps boasting something similar. I have a Blackstar S1 200 with a supposedly Dynamic Power Reduction circuit controlled by a pot that reduces the "Wattage" down to 10% with of course in between values. But in every S1 amp they sold the had the same up to 10% reduction that seemed weird. It does reduce the headroom and you do get break up earlier but it seemed kind of fishy.
> Problem is that Blackstar is notorious for not giving away their schematics and only allowing authorized Blackstar techs to do repairs and maintenance on their amps. But I'm guessing it might be something similar as the Laneys.



I mean backstar is just full of bullshit 100 percent of the time. their amps are mostly solid state outside of the artisan series. But they are really good at solid state so it's not unreasonable to expect that they can actually do it right.

the problem is that the labeling is not technically wrong...but it's definitely false because it appeals to people that are looking for power tube break up at lower volume levels. 

The amp I'm most curious about is the mesa tc 100.


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## GoldDragon (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> no it is most assuredly not. There is zero tube saturation happening when you use the wattage control.
> 
> This is the classic case of something being named by marketing. Is it controlling wattage. Technically yes in the same way that any volume control controls wattage. the less signal you put in the less signal you get out.
> 
> ...



Youre saying that the effect is phase inverter distortion. It sounds like power tube saturation I have gotten by cranking other 6L6 amps into my isolation cabinet. Although it happens much sooner in the volume range.

The distortion is very different than any of the preamp gain stages. The distortion is pleasing, it rounds the top, adds some lower mid girth, and it is slower.

I don't know your credentials. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but even if the distortion is simulated power tube distortion, it sounds just like it.

Furthermore, if you have ever tracked a raging tube amp into an isolation, you will know that the amp itself makes a noise that you can hear if you dont have the speakers on; you can hear a small image of the sound through (I'm assuming) the resonance of the power tubes.

You can still hear this sound with the Ironheart, even when the wattage is turned down. And like other tube heads, when you get close to the head when the tubes are screaming at this volume, you can get feedback. Same happens with the ironheart.

My experience with the amp contradicts what you are saying from looking at the schematics. I don't know your credentials, but I'm sure you know that 99.9% of the people here don't understand tube amp electronics intimately, so you can peddle what little knowledge you have as an authority. I don't know if what you are saying is true, because it contradicts my actual experience with the amp.

IOW, I think there is a greater chance you are BSing, than there is that Laney is lying about the operation of the amp.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Youre saying that the effect is phase inverter distortion. It sounds like power tube saturation I have gotten by cranking other 6L6 amps into my isolation cabinet. Although it happens much sooner in the volume range.
> 
> The distortion is very different than any of the preamp gain stages. The distortion is pleasing, it rounds the top, adds some lower mid girth, and it is slower.
> 
> ...



dude you're a fucking idiot.
I'm looking right at the official service manual.

I've owned more amps and dissected more circuits then you know exist.

I'm not even going to justify the rest of your garbage with any other responses.


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## GoldDragon (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> dude you're a fucking idiot.
> I'm looking right at the official service manual.
> 
> I've owned more amps and dissected more circuits then you know exist.
> ...



Good. I think you were BSing us anyway. Your description of the circuit was vague, you just wanted to come off as a big shot. Never did explain how phase inverter distortion could sound like power tube distortion.

An actual amp builder on TGP explained how it worked when I asked him years ago. I was skeptical but he assured me it was real. Without knowing your credentials, its hard to take your word over his. And then you have to actually explain why the phase inverter distortion sounds like power tubes.


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## Cynicanal (May 22, 2020)

No, I googled the schematic in Diagrammatiks's post, and he's right -- the "watts" control is just a volume knob after the phase inverter (which is what I'd always heard about the amp, anyways). See for yourself: https://elektrotanya.com/laney_irt60h_sm.pdf/download.html#dl

Also, am I reading it right -- that the rhythm channel is the same as the lead channel, except with second copies of the controls? That doesn't match my experience with the amp at all, but I'm having a hard time reading the switching here (it's possible that it's also skipping the V1B and V2A stages, like the clean channel is; I can't figure out what the hell those relays are doing).


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## Guitarjon (May 22, 2020)

Cynicanal said:


> No, I googled the schematic in Diagrammatiks's post, and he's right -- the "watts" control is just a volume knob after the phase inverter (which is what I'd always heard about the amp, anyways). See for yourself: https://elektrotanya.com/laney_irt60h_sm.pdf/download.html#dl
> 
> Also, am I reading it right -- that the rhythm channel is the same as the lead channel, except with second copies of the controls? That doesn't match my experience with the amp at all, but I'm having a hard time reading the switching here (it's possible that it's also skipping the V1B and V2A stages, like the clean channel is; I can't figure out what the hell those relays are doing).



The rhythm channel on mine does not sound the same as the lead channel...


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Good. I think you were BSing us anyway. Your description of the circuit was vague, you just wanted to come off as a big shot. Never did explain how phase inverter distortion could sound like power tube distortion.
> 
> An actual amp builder on TGP explained how it worked when I asked him years ago. I was skeptical but he assured me it was real. Without knowing your credentials, its hard to take your word over his. And then you have to actually explain why the phase inverter distortion sounds like power tubes.



wow an actual amp builder on tgp. 

christ do I have to explain this. 

a triode gain stage is a single gain stage. 
it distorts like a single ended gain stage.

a phase interverter is 2 triodes coupled together to function like a class a/b push pull gain stage. It distorts very differently from a normal triode stage and acts much closer to what you think power tube distortion at low volumes should sound like. 

This is precisely the reason why the Marshall ppimv was such a popular mod. 

Although there's no power supply sag associated with distorting phase inverters if you could someone reamp just inverters through a separate clean amp they would feel nothing like power tubes distorting .

this is grade school stuff man. I'm done talking to you now. 



Cynicanal said:


> No, I googled the schematic in Diagrammatiks's post, and he's right -- the "watts" control is just a volume knob after the phase inverter (which is what I'd always heard about the amp, anyways). See for yourself: https://elektrotanya.com/laney_irt60h_sm.pdf/download.html#dl
> 
> Also, am I reading it right -- that the rhythm channel is the same as the lead channel, except with second copies of the controls? That doesn't match my experience with the amp at all, but I'm having a hard time reading the switching here (it's possible that it's also skipping the V1B and V2A stages, like the clean channel is; I can't figure out what the hell those relays are doing).



This part of the schematic is a little confusing because on the irt studio schematic both channels are also identical but they really aren't identical. 

I mean companies leave out stuff on service manuals all the time or they change values. Unfortunately 90 percent of the front end of the studio is SMD components and I'm not set up to trace that circuit without destroying the amp. 

But they aren't going to leave out really important stuff like the entire portion of the circuit that would be necessary for an actual variable voltage wattage squish circuit.


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## Edika (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> wow an actual amp builder on tgp.
> 
> christ do I have to explain this.
> 
> ...



One thing GoldDragon was right is that most of us don't have that much knowledge on electronic circuits. I know it might feel like explaining simple stuff but I wouldn't mind if you share more as what you posted was quite informative.


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## GoldDragon (May 22, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> wow an actual amp builder on tgp.
> 
> christ do I have to explain this.
> 
> ...




There is no way out of this for you.  You said the wattage control "doesn't do anything", but anyone who has used the amp knows that it does. And not just lower the volume, it allows the amp to achieve cranked tone at lower levels.

Whether it is power tube saturation or something else, the wattage control absolutely does something. Period. 

Regarding TGP, there is a guy that designs and builds amps. He posted photos of a new combo he had built and I asked him about the Ironheart wattage control. The reason I asked him is he was obviously talented and knew his stuff. I was always curious if the saturation was real power tube saturation or something else.

He said he understood how they were achieving it. I dont remember the explanation.

My guess is that there are parts of the schematic you don't understand.


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## Cynicanal (May 22, 2020)

He didn't say the watting control doesn't do anything. He said it was a "lie", in that it didn't work like a power-soak at all. He said it's a PPIMV, and if he thinks it's a PPIMV, he obviously thinks it does something, since PPIMVs do something.

With that said, on a big-bottle amp, most "power-amp distortion" is actually just phase-inverter distortion, so you're not entirely wrong that it allows you to achieve cranked tone at lower levels (most big-bottle circuits don't clip the EL34s/6L6s/KT88s/6550s/whatever else much if any; especially if it's a circuit that works well with KT88s, such as a 2203/2204, since those tubes sound like _ass_ when they clip much). 

There's nothing to misread or misunderstand in that schematic when it comes to the watts knob. It's as simple as it gets -- a volume knob after the PI. Anyone who has ever seen the schematics for any of the more popular Marshall mods will recognize the Ironheart's poweramp design instantly.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> There is no way out of this for you. You said the wattage control "doesn't do anything", but anyone who has used the amp knows that it does. And not just lower the volume, it allows the amp to achieve cranked tone at lower levels.
> 
> Whether it is power tube saturation or something else, the wattage control absolutely does something. Period.
> 
> ...



Clearly your literacy is absolutely zero.

Like I might not know as much as your magical tgp builder who comes from a land where 95 percent of the builders build from layouts of fender and Marshall clones, but I guaran-fucking-tee I know more then you. 

So for the last time. I never said this control does nothing. Never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever ever. Look I can use underlines too. It's a ppimv. It works like a ppimv. It does all the things that a ppimv is supposed to do.

If you don't know what a ppimv is. Because clearly you don't. You could have asked. Instead you had to a complete cockwamble.


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## diagrammatiks (May 22, 2020)

Edika said:


> One thing GoldDragon was right is that most of us don't have that much knowledge on electronic circuits. I know it might feel like explaining simple stuff but I wouldn't mind if you share more as what you posted was quite informative.



Hey man, if you want to learn I'll give you information. Links, websites, stuff to read no problem.

If I'm wrong let me know I'm wrong. Don't go from 0 to calling me a lying bullshitter. That escalates too quickly.



Cynicanal said:


> He didn't say the watting control doesn't do anything. He said it was a "lie", in that it didn't work like a power-soak at all. He said it's a PPIMV, and if he thinks it's a PPIMV, he obviously thinks it does something, since PPIMVs do something.
> 
> With that said, on a big-bottle amp, most "power-amp distortion" is actually just phase-inverter distortion, so you're not entirely wrong that it allows you to achieve cranked tone at lower levels (most big-bottle circuits don't clip the EL34s/6L6s/KT88s/6550s/whatever else much if any; especially if it's a circuit that works well with KT88s, such as a 2203/2204, since those tubes sound like _ass_ when they clip much).
> 
> There's nothing to misread or misunderstand in that schematic when it comes to the watts knob. It's as simple as it gets -- a volume knob after the PI. Anyone who has ever seen the schematics for any of the more popular Marshall mods will recognize the Ironheart's poweramp design instantly.



On the power amp thing ya it really depends on how people set their amp and what their expectations are. 

Most edge of break-up sounds from anything more complex then a non master Marshall is really a mix of preamp, pi, and light power tube break up. 

But if you're talking dimed amps then you're hearing all the other stuff but with the way power tubes work, most of the sound will be power tube distortion.

You can test this as well. Dime an amp. Don't use an attenuator because even the best attenuator will not emulate a speaker perfectly. But dime an amp and then shove boosts, and distortions, and stuff in there. The impact on the tone will be minimal compared to the difference it makes on the edge of breakup or clean.


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