# (NGD) Fakemachine B7



## Bigfan (Feb 11, 2018)

So, I took a chance and ordered one just before christmas. It arrived midway through january and besides needing a bit of a setup seems pretty decent for the money. It sounds pretty good (better than my Strandberg ever did for sure), and besides the rather chunky neck it actually plays pretty well with comfortable action. The tuners aren't the best, but the nut seems well cut and smooth, and the electronics seem sturdy and reliable. Overall, I'm very impressed with how this guitar looks and sounds for the price. Obviously not everyone is going to be happy with chinese companies ripping off accomplished luthiers, but I don't have $10k to spend on a guitar sadly.







One very interesting flaw is the body being cut out with the grain and glue seams diagonally. I'd be pissed if this happened on a guitar that wasn't this cheap obviously. Also, the neck stripes are not wood inserts, but rather very well masked paint.


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## dr_game0ver (Feb 11, 2018)

This does looks pretty damn good! How "cheap" are we talking?


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## Bigfan (Feb 11, 2018)

dr_game0ver said:


> This does looks pretty damn good! How "cheap" are we talking?



There's several types for sale on Ali at the moment, you can see pictures of mine at the same price if you search for "krait blackmachine" or something similar. I don't really wanna link to it, because I don't necessarily wanna promote copies (hypocritical I know).


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## zarg (Feb 11, 2018)

I was thinking about one of these too, since I love the blackmachine looks but don't have the funds for one


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## sezna (Feb 11, 2018)

Bigfan said:


> There's several types for sale on Ali at the moment, you can see pictures of mine at the same price if you search for "krait blackmachine" or something similar. I don't really wanna link to it, because I don't necessarily wanna promote copies (hypocritical I know).


does it have SS frets or anything that cant be fixed with a setup?

What is cool about a lot of these chinese copies is you can message the seller and custom order specs. Almost just like a real custom build but with no guarantee of spotless perfection and 1/10th the price


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## Hollowway (Feb 11, 2018)

Not to dump on your NGD, but “not having $10,000 to spend on a guitar” does not suddenly award you the right to condone the stealing of other people’s designs. You’re not entitled to owning a Blackmachine. And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.


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## Vyn (Feb 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Not to dump on your NGD, but “not having $10,000 to spend on a guitar” does not suddenly award you the right to condone the stealing of other people’s designs. You’re not entitled to owning a Blackmachine. And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.



I think there's some leeway here as Blackmachine are no longer accepting orders, just finishing other customers guitars. From memory (I think it was on here) Doug was planning on just building the guitars he wanted with whatever exotic timbers he had left over and not releasing them to the public. It's different when making a copy of something that's no longer actually in production/print.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Not to dump on your NGD, but “not having $10,000 to spend on a guitar” does not suddenly award you the right to condone the stealing of other people’s designs. You’re not entitled to owning a Blackmachine. And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.


So let us know what guitars, amps, and pedals you have...

This should go swimmingly well.


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## sezna (Feb 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Not to dump on your NGD, but “not having $10,000 to spend on a guitar” does not suddenly award you the right to condone the stealing of other people’s designs. You’re not entitled to owning a Blackmachine. And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.



I’d agree with you in an ideal world. This is more complicated as blackmachine is basically unobtanium, and that he has already bought the guitar. In light of these things, it is probably more productive to just discuss the guitar than to guilt him or start a flame war (looking at you @Spaced Out Ace )


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## Albake21 (Feb 11, 2018)

Vyn said:


> I think there's some leeway here as Blackmachine are no longer accepting orders, just finishing other customers guitars. From memory (I think it was on here) Doug was planning on just building the guitars he wanted with whatever exotic timbers he had left over and not releasing them to the public. It's different when making a copy of something that's no longer actually in production/print.


This is my exact thought on the subject. I would be against these clones if Blackmachines were still made, but sadly they are not. There is no way of getting a new one anymore.

Back on topic. It looks pretty nice! You said the neck is pretty thick. As in like a baseball bat or just no Ibanez Wizard thin?


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 11, 2018)

HNGD OP, it looks pretty nice


Hollowway said:


> Not to dump on your NGD, but “not having $10,000 to spend on a guitar” does not suddenly award you the right to condone the stealing of other people’s designs. You’re not entitled to owning a Blackmachine. And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.


The blackmachine design is visually distinct, but it's not like they have a monopoly on the specific aspects that make it a blackmachine. The headstock is essentially a tweaked parker fly shape, the body shape is a generic superstrat, and the only really unique aspect was the partial bevel/binding/metal backplate imo. The ormsby hypemachine and others all replicate those details and manage to crank out guitars at more realistic prices with comparable specs. There's nothing wrong with copying designs when the originals are basically impossible for the average person to get a hold of (ie prints vs originals of photographs/paintings or a replica goldtop 59 LP vs a real one).


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 11, 2018)

sezna said:


> I’d agree with you in an ideal world. This is more complicated as blackmachine is basically unobtanium, and that he has already bought the guitar. In light of these things, it is probably more productive to just discuss the guitar than to guilt him or start a flame war (looking at you @Spaced Out Ace )


I'm not starting a flame war. I'd like to know what gear he uses, because if he uses tube screamer clones, guitars based on strat/LP/Tele, etc. shapes, or even companies that do such, then I'm not sure what the point of his initial post even is.


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## sezna (Feb 11, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm not starting a flame war. I'd like to know what gear he uses, because if he uses tube screamer clones, guitars based on strat/LP/Tele, etc. shapes, or even companies that do such, then I'm not sure what the point of his initial post even is.


Your point is fair and makes sense I just think itll start a fight in a celebratory NGD thread.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 11, 2018)

sezna said:


> Your point is fair and makes sense I just think itll start a fight in a celebratory NGD thread.


I think his guitar is cool, and if he has no issues with it, then so be it. I found Hollowway's comment to be rather funny. Just about every company has ripped off Fender, whether it is guitars, amps, or whatever.


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## A-Branger (Feb 11, 2018)

as long as the guitar is not being sold as a "blackmachine"...... same opinion I always have with chinese coppies. GEt your own as most cases are made with specs that you cant find withouy $$$$$$$$$$$, they are an "assembled kit guitar", they would reflect that and a 200$ guitar wont be a treat to the rela thing as it targets a different market. Problem would come if it was sold at the same price. So go for it, but if you do, get your own logo, or no logo at all.

problem comes when these get sell under the real name logo/brand


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## pott (Feb 11, 2018)

You can order a Blackmachine B6 from Feline. They cost GBP2.3k. Doug has never made any B6s so it's as much a Blackmachine as all other B6s are.
No clue about B2s/B7s.


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## Hollowway (Feb 11, 2018)

Don't worry guys, I'm not going to take the bait on Spaced Out Ace's straw man argument. My point is that it's a specific and exact copy of an instrument, not anything borrowed. I'm well aware that I'm in the minority on this topic, which is why I apologized to TS in the initial post. Albake brings up a good point about them not being made anymore, though I'm not sure Doug has officially said he will not be building, as opposed to just not right now. Anyway, everyone is allowed to draw their own line as to when it's appropriate to copy another's design. No harsh shade on Bigfan, as he said in the OP that not everyone is going to be happy about Chinese luthiers ripping off existing designs.

And A-Branger, I totally agree about not passing it off as the real deal. I'm sure Bigfan wouldn't, but down the line someone may well. These copies pop up all the time with people claiming them to be real (somethings actually thinking it).


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## Lord Voldemort (Feb 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Not to dump on your NGD, but “not having $10,000 to spend on a guitar” does not suddenly award you the right to condone the stealing of other people’s designs. You’re not entitled to owning a Blackmachine. And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.



Meh, too bad. If you don't want someone to steal your design (which btw, is just a super strat body with an altered headstock wow how inventive and revolutionary) then perhaps you could simply not charge $5,000 for it. That's absolutely obnoxious. So, someone else makes something that looks extremely similar that is an actually reasonable price, you bet your behind that someone's going to buy that, for sure. I appreciate your rigidity but your passion is just basically supporting extreme price inflation and making people pay a used Car price, which in of itself frankly is probably the only reason people are interested in it. Just my opinion, however.


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## Avedas (Feb 12, 2018)

If it's basically abandonware just let it go lol


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## Sogradde (Feb 12, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Don't worry guys, I'm not going to take the bait on Spaced Out Ace's straw man argument. My point is that it's a specific and exact copy of an instrument, not anything borrowed. I'm well aware that I'm in the minority on this topic, which is why I apologized to TS in the initial post. Albake brings up a good point about them not being made anymore, though I'm not sure Doug has officially said he will not be building, as opposed to just not right now. Anyway, everyone is allowed to draw their own line as to when it's appropriate to copy another's design. No harsh shade on Bigfan, as he said in the OP that not everyone is going to be happy about Chinese luthiers ripping off existing designs.
> 
> And A-Branger, I totally agree about not passing it off as the real deal. I'm sure Bigfan wouldn't, but down the line someone may well. These copies pop up all the time with people claiming them to be real (somethings actually thinking it).



I might have missed it but I don't think there's a Blackmachine logo on OPs guitar, is there?
Also I'm genuinely curious (not baiting) whether you find that a Skervesen Raptor or an Ormsby Hype GTR are Blackmachine ripoffs? Those clearly all use a very similar design.

Either way, happy NGD OP!


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## Humbuck (Feb 12, 2018)

If you want to spend your money on cheap crap, go ahead.


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## caspian (Feb 12, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> And yes, I know that other people rip of strat designs, and no I don’t think that’s right either. And if you’re ok with this, you should be ok with other people ripping off your music. You can’t have it both ways. Again, apologies for the rant, but I’m continually amazed at how many of us artists think it’s ok to steal other’s art, just because we think we’re entitled to something we cannot afford.



Having it both ways sounds like a great idea. Like throughout human history, people have built on other people's works. Not just artistic stuff either, science, architecture, etc etc. You build on other people's stuff and then someone gets your stuff and makes it cheaper, more accessible, faster, smaller, whatever. ...Until 100 years ago or so and then suddenly what's yours is yours and woe betide anyone else who could get some use out of it! Betting Hollowway is the kinda guy who thinks you should have to pay thousands of dollars for cancer drugs and the like. "Yes people will die but intellectual property is a god given birthright" 


Anyway, I actually came here to talk about the fakemachine- it looks really fun, and I've been meaning to get a chibson flying V for a fair while now. I've seen a lot of good reviews for all this kinda chinese rip off stuff and yeah, if it's cheap, it's worth a crack...


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## TheUnknownOne (Feb 12, 2018)

Well, would you say a Xiaomi phone is an iPhone ripoff and that by buying one you're ripping off Apple ?

If the answer is yes, then that's your opinion, but otherwise there's nothing wrong if this is not sold as a genuine Blackmachine guitar


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## manu80 (Feb 12, 2018)

Tough topic. on the one hand, it's a copy of a known shape, without logo. Also those shapes , bevels etc are everywhere today, ran, luthiers, Ibanez etc...so in a way those are copies too. Like the Muff, the TS8 that have all been ripped off but by established companies...etc...but it's fine because they're known brands.
On the other hand, 5000 dollars or more is a rip off for a piece of wood for me too, Gibson, Kiesel whatever etc...don't know how you can justify even with a lot of work that price for a piece of wood anyways, whatever hype there is. Not starting a fight but just commenting like others....but that seems normal to spend that money for some bolt on guitars so ...


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## Bigfan (Feb 12, 2018)

Well this got heated. 

I've bought custom shop guitars before (Strandberg, OAF) and I will probably own a B6 at some point, but right now I don't believe there is a way to order a B7. I could have gone with a Skervesen or a hypemachine, but as I'd never played on of these before and I'd always been interested in the quality I decided to take a risk and order one. I don't believe the market for a $300 chinese ripoff in any way overlaps the market for a real Blackmachine, so I don't really see this as taking business away from Doug. This might look like a BM, but it lacks all the features that they're famous for. Think of it as a very fancy Ibanez RG7321.


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## Bigfan (Feb 12, 2018)

Sogradde said:


> I might have missed it but I don't think there's a Blackmachine logo on OPs guitar, is there?



I specifically bought one without the logo plate.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 12, 2018)

There are probably 1000+ Blackmachine clones or variations being made every year while there are only 1-2 Doug made builds and only a handful of Feline B6s being made every year. You can't really criticise Aliexpress alone for doing blatant copies when countless other builders cashed in on the demand. This all happened because you couldn't buy a BM even if you were on the waiting list or had the cash. If only Doug had gone the Strandberg route it would be a different story.



Lord Voldemort said:


> just a super strat body with an altered headstock wow how inventive and revolutionary)



When BM first came out they were innovative. The whole point of the design was to disprove countless guitar myths and try new approaches that were unheard of in the London/UK guitar scene. Doug had to fight every inch and people didn't know what to make of his designs for years(check any guitar forum from the early 2000s, now its the stable design for countless custom shops. This was at a time when "passive pickups were useless for metal" and a certain UK pickup company had a lot of trouble being taken seriously before approaching Doug to try them out in his builds so of course most people aren't going to understand.


For anyone questioning if BM clones or inspired builds have harmed BM's sales, they go for more new now than they ever have and the second hand market still fetches huge prices. The demand will always be there and so will buyers willing to pay the premium.


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## xzacx (Feb 12, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Meh, too bad. If you don't want someone to steal your design (which btw, is just a super strat body with an altered headstock wow how inventive and revolutionary) then perhaps you could simply not charge $5,000 for it.



Can't afford it, or not worth the money for you? Cool, you have every right not to buy it. But that doesn't give anyone the right to steal the design. I don't think the BM design/concept is anything particularly interesting, but a lot of other people do. It may not have taken extensive R&D to produce, but if there's enough demand that it's being counterfeited, then apparently it's worth quite a bit. 




caspian said:


> Having it both ways sounds like a great idea. Like throughout human history, people have built on other people's works.



Sure, but this doesn't actually "build" on anything. "Inferior quality at a cheaper price" is just ripping something off.


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## Lord Voldemort (Feb 12, 2018)

xzacx said:


> Can't afford it, or not worth the money for you? Cool, you have every right not to buy it. But that doesn't give anyone the right to steal the design. I don't think the BM design/concept is anything particularly interesting, but a lot of other people do. It may not have taken extensive R&D to produce, but if there's enough demand that it's being counterfeited, then apparently it's worth quite a bit.



I couldn't disagree more. People steal designs in every medium, and guitar is incidentally a great example of that. When you create a product, and people like it, it's going to be stolen and copied by your competition. That's just what happens, and it's not really a bad thing honestly. People can't just scoop a headstock and say '' invented this and I'm charging $10k for it and no one else can do it because I thought of it.' Sure, you can inflate your guitars to $10k each and take as long as you want to make it, ultimately some poor sod is going to take you up on that because they want ''the best'. But at the end of the day, your little design is incredibly reproducible, and it's absolutely going to be stolen (and thank goodness for that, hopefully it will teach selfish/lazy luthiers to charge reasonable prices). 

The way that these guitars are priced is completely asinine. The way that they conduct business is completely asinine. The way that people defend and actually cater to this business is absolute romanticism and pretentious nonsense at it's finest, and completely asinine. It being taken and reproduced is exclusively a good thing, as far as I'm concerned. 

If youre worried about people stealing your design, make sure you make an affordable option for the every man, because if I had a chance to grab a Blackmachine OS made in Korea for $400 or a copy made in China for $300, I'd happily support Blackmachine for being reasonable and considerate and buy their product. They seem more than happy with dealing with the .1% niche audience though, and that's their right. They also seem wholly unconcerned with copycats as far as I can tell, which is probably the right approach as Blackmachine's appeal has nothing to do with design or anything tangible, it's all based around romanticism and exclusivity, and Chinese copies will never scratch those itches.


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## xzacx (Feb 12, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> I couldn't disagree more. People steal designs in every medium, and guitar is incidentally a great example of that. When you create a product, and people like it, it's going to be stolen and copied by your competition.



I don't disagree that it's inevitable, but that doesn't mean it's OK to support either. BM's business model is of their own choosing, whether or not we agree with it. It's ultimately up to him, and what the market dictates. You want to "teach someone a lesson" by being so thirsty for their work that you'll take a counterfeit? That's just further proof that the design must have been an awful good one (or that at least the marketing behind it was). 




Lord Voldemort said:


> If youre worried about people stealing your design, make sure you make an affordable option for the every man.



Sorry, but every man isn't entitled to an affordable option of every for-profit product. Your straw man argument about the cost of prescription drugs has no relevance to this either.


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## jbcrazy (Feb 12, 2018)

Where the hell can you buy a non B6 blackmachine for 5k?

More like 8-10k plus.

I don't think Fender strat/Les Paul copies is a fair comparison. Even if you had the money, a Blackmachine is hard to come by... one that is sanely price is impossible. 

I owned a B2 for a bit. Nice guitar... don't think I'd buy another one for the price I paid unless its suped up to the gills like some of the ones I've seen.

As far as the OP goes... it looks nice.


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## Lord Voldemort (Feb 12, 2018)

xzacx said:


> I don't disagree that it's inevitable, but that doesn't mean it's OK to support either. BM's business model is of their own choosing, whether or not we agree with it. It's ultimately up to him, and what the market dictates. You want to "teach someone a lesson" by being so thirsty for their work that you'll take a counterfeit? That's just further proof that the design must have been an awful good one (or that at least the marketing behind it was).
> 
> 
> Sorry, but every man isn't entitled to an affordable option of every for-profit product. Your straw man argument about the cost of prescription drugs has no relevance to this either.



I didn't use a strawman I don't think? I'm not inventing and replying to an argument that someone hasn't made, to be clear that's a strawman right? I didn't bring up prescription drugs, either, it's not really a good analogy as one doesn't need a Blackmachine to live. 

I don't know what your point about it 'clearly being so good it was counterfeited' serves either, it's kind of like you're saying since someone made a copy the 10k price tag is obviously warranted. Which is...weird. It being a handsome design doesn't mean that it's suddenly mean that it's suddenly worth 10k. Isn't that a false dichotomy? 

But anyways, feel how you feel man. 

And yeah OP, beautiful guitar.


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## xzacx (Feb 12, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> I didn't bring up prescription drugs, either, it's not really a good analogy as one doesn't need a Blackmachine to live.


My fault - wrong person. But relevant to the fact that not every product has to be available to everyone, as you implied. Healthcare shouldn't be a for-profit venture such as boutique guitars, but that's a whole different argument.



Lord Voldemort said:


> I don't know what your point about it 'clearly being so good it was counterfeited' serves either, it's kind of like you're saying since someone made a copy the 10k price tag is obviously warranted. Which is...weird. It being a handsome design doesn't mean that it's suddenly mean that it's suddenly worth 10k. Isn't that a false dichotomy?



My point is that, why isn't it OK to just not have it if you can't or won't pay the price it actually costs? The price is worth what someone will pay, and if it's $10k, it's $10k.


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## jbcrazy (Feb 12, 2018)

xzacx said:


> My fault - wrong person. But relevant to the fact that not every product has to be available to everyone, as you implied. Healthcare shouldn't be a for-profit venture such as boutique guitars, but that's a whole different argument.
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that, why isn't it OK to just not have it if you can't or won't pay the price it actually costs? The price is worth what someone will pay, and if it's $10k, it's $10k.



That's fine but do you really think the above guitar is an actual Blackmachine? It kind of looks like a blackmachine... but its not. Its not advertised as the real deal nor on close inspection would anyone think it's a Blackmachine. (Most people probably don't even know what a Blackmachine is.)

It probably doesn't sound like a Blackmachine. Probably doesn't feel like a Blackmachine. But it kinda looks like one... I don't see the big problem.

Copied guitar designs isn't something new as many have stated. Slash's guitar. Fake Zematis guitars... countless of LP and strat clones. If someone is happy with a copy that's on them. I don't think Doug cares in the long run because he has no interest producing these guitars for the masses. As I stated before... a real Blackmachine is still a real Blackmachine.

A 59 Les Paul is a 59 Les Paul... no matter who tries to clone it. There's replica Dumble amps. Replica everything... Clones... knock offs... etc.

No not everyone deserves or wants a real BM... but its fine.

Doug's bottom line isn't hurt as long as its clearly advertised as not the real deal.


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## Albake21 (Feb 12, 2018)

jbcrazy said:


> Most people probably don't even know what a Blackmachine is.



Lol this is fairly accurate. I feel like only us gear nerds only know what Blackmachines are.


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## bostjan (Feb 12, 2018)

Maybe there are two things at play here: Ethics and Legality.

Legally, at least in the USA, it is not illegal to own a counterfeit good, but it *is illegal* to sell such, with a penalty for doing so 10 years in federal prison, as well as up to $2 million US in fines.

That said, and all points considered, I think the ethics here might actually be a little sticky, either way.



Albake21 said:


> Lol this is fairly accurate. I feel like only us gear nerds only know what Blackmachines are.



A Blackmachine guitar is a status symbol for guitarists, pure and simple. I'm probably offering way too much opinion here, and it'll certainly be unpopular to say this, but owning a counterfeit status symbol is really just tacky. If I bought a fake Rolex or whatever, and then went around showing it off as a real Rolex, I'm sure people would call me out for being a dip. Going around flaunting it as a fake Rolex, I suppose, would be borderline ethical, since I'm not misrepresenting anything, but, I'd still be showing support for something misrepresented, even if I'm supporting it in a way that makes no effort to hide what it really is...


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## Bigfan (Feb 12, 2018)

bostjan said:


> A Blackmachine guitar is a status symbol for guitarists, pure and simple. I'm probably offering way too much opinion here, and it'll certainly be unpopular to say this, but owning a counterfeit status symbol is really just tacky.



If people were claiming these were anything but copies, I'd agree.

I just like the look of these guitars, so I decided to get a cheap wallhanger version of one. Luckily it actually plays and sounds nice as well.


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## bostjan (Feb 12, 2018)

Bigfan said:


> If people were claiming these were anything but copies, I'd agree.
> 
> I just like the look of these guitars, so I decided to get a cheap wallhanger version of one. Luckily it actually plays and sounds nice as well.



But, then, if the goal was to obtain a "wall-hanger" guitar to display, it really sort of plays to the point that this may be an ethically controvertial decision. Personally, I have no problem with individual people who buy fakemachines or fake Strandbergs or whatever. I don't think it's really that big of a deal. But there is still a greater problem of any statistically significant population of people making such purchases, because it undermines the art form involved in making a guitar.

For example, if I find a painter who I enjoy, and I asked him to purchase an oil painting, and he quotes me $10k. I say "that's too much," and instead make a photocopy of the painting and hang it on my wall instead. Am I in my right to do that? Legally, yeah, well, only maybe just kind of, but it's not ideal, and I know and you know that it's not ideal. Now, if some guy in China or wherever starts peddling photocopies of this guy's artwork over Ali Express for $300-400 per piece, and a bunch of people start buying them, then the artist whose work is parodied will likely have to quit art and find a new career. You know what I mean? Maybe he would have had to have quit anyway, since not many people were buying $10k paintings, but who's to say? (Actually, certainly someone did at some point if he got famous enough to copy in the first place)

If it was a matter of "hey I need a guitar so I can play this smokin' riff idea I have," it'd be one thing, but the idea of a guitar that was very purposely made to look like another and purchased in order to display, in my very bold and unpopular opinion, is just a form of false advertisement.


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## myrtorp (Feb 12, 2018)

Looks nice HNGD!


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## xzacx (Feb 12, 2018)

bostjan said:


> A Blackmachine guitar is a status symbol for guitarists, pure and simple. I'm probably offering way too much opinion here, and it'll certainly be unpopular to say this, but owning a counterfeit status symbol is really just tacky. If I bought a fake Rolex or whatever, and then went around showing it off as a real Rolex, I'm sure people would call me out for being a dip. Going around flaunting it as a fake Rolex, I suppose, would be borderline ethical, since I'm not misrepresenting anything, but, I'd still be showing support for something misrepresented, even if I'm supporting it in a way that makes no effort to hide what it really is...



Well put. I've been thinking about getting an Explorer 1 for a while. But I just got a new car, am moving in a month or so, and I also have custom build that's going to be finished up any time now, so it'd probably be best to wait on a new watch. But never once have I considered a fake or a "real" knockoff. I'll be able to afford it at some point, or I won't. I don't "deserve" a half-price quartz and aluminum version or something, and wouldn't want one. There are plenty of other ways to tell time (just like there are plenty of other guitars to play music with). Even if it's something that is able to skirt the legalities, it's about ethics and just not wanting to own knockoff products.


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## Necris (Feb 12, 2018)

Jesus Christ, this thread is something else.  I bet OP never foresaw people lining up for their turn on the soapbox when he was taking pictures of his guitar, much less being accused of entitlement, status seeking and unethical behavior.


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## Bigfan (Feb 12, 2018)

Necris said:


> Jesus Christ, this thread is something else.  I bet OP never foresaw people lining up for their turn on the soapbox when he was taking pictures of his guitar, much less being accused of entitlement, status seeking and unethical behavior.



Eh, I knew people were going to have some strong opinions on cheap chinese knockoffs. I just wanted to inform anyone that might be interested in one that mine at least was worth the money.


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## Ziricote (Feb 12, 2018)

You had me sold until the ebony stripes in the neck are just tape!? Now THAT is worth talking the smack about LOL


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 12, 2018)

It's february. time for the make sure black machine is still a thing people to come out of the wood work.


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## Bigfan (Feb 12, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> You had me sold until the ebony stripes in the neck are just tape!? Now THAT is worth talking the smack about LOL



Tape? It's painted.


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## Forkface (Feb 12, 2018)

Based on some people's opinions in this thread, everybody should be buying Mercedes Benz cars because Karl Benz invented the petrol automobile and every other manufacturer is ripping off Benz. Or everybody that plays a 12 bar blues is ripping off whoever the fuck invented 12 bar blues.

Ridiculous.

to OP: you do you mate. Guitar looks awesome, enjoy it and disregard some of these responses.


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## Hollowway (Feb 12, 2018)

caspian said:


> Having it both ways sounds like a great idea. Like throughout human history, people have built on other people's works. Not just artistic stuff either, science, architecture, etc etc. You build on other people's stuff and then someone gets your stuff and makes it cheaper, more accessible, faster, smaller, whatever. ...Until 100 years ago or so and then suddenly what's yours is yours and woe betide anyone else who could get some use out of it! Betting Hollowway is the kinda guy who thinks you should have to pay thousands of dollars for cancer drugs and the like. "Yes people will die but intellectual property is a god given birthright"
> 
> 
> Anyway, I actually came here to talk about the fakemachine- it looks really fun, and I've been meaning to get a chibson flying V for a fair while now. I've seen a lot of good reviews for all this kinda chinese rip off stuff and yeah, if it's cheap, it's worth a crack...



I’d appreciate it if you didn’t put words in my mouth. If you have anything to add to the discussion, then I’d be happy to debate it with you (in another thread, so you don’t clog up TS’s thread). Otherwise, either try to understand someone else’s point of view, or refrain from making ad hominem, uneducated attacks. I’ll debate you any time, because it’s clear you’ve done no thinking or research into IP issues.


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## mphsc (Feb 12, 2018)

Damn, 3 pages of congrats on a "clone". Happy NGD!


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## chipchappy (Feb 12, 2018)

I find some hidden humor in the fact that this post:



bostjan said:


> But, then, if the goal was to...



is immediately followed by this post:



myrtorp said:


> Looks nice HNGD!



Two completely different, conflicting purposes for posting in this thread. What an incredible place!


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## BangandBreach (Feb 13, 2018)

Friendly neighborhood ANCAP checking in to say HNGD.


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## Lemonbaby (Feb 13, 2018)

Happy NGD, doesn't look bad. Like the innovative slanted centerline... 

As long as there's no Blackmaching logo on it, it's not a legal issue. The Rolex copies some people are referring to HAVE a Rolex logo on them - that's why they are illegal.


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## GXPO (Feb 13, 2018)

This old Chestnut.


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## Shoeless_jose (Feb 13, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> They also seem wholly unconcerned with copycats as far as I can tell, which is probably the right approach as Blackmachine's appeal has nothing to do with design or anything tangible, it's all based around romanticism and exclusivity, and Chinese copies will never scratch those itches.



This guy nailed it right here. People trying to pass off a fake black machine or Chibson or whatever else as genuine are 100% wrong, people that buy the copy knowing it's a copy and not caring, are not people that value the IP or art of it anyways, I know I would never be happy with a copy of something, or even an Epiphone that I upgraded the components on I know I would always feel I sold myself short, so there will always be those people that want the genuine thing.

Also in terms of black machine... I really don't see the innovation, like maybe I'm really missing something about what makes them so special, but besides the scooped headstock I see very little that is original design being ripped off. Like besides quality handmade workmanship it's a superstrat?


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## goobaba (Feb 13, 2018)

Very cool!


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## GuitarBizarre (Feb 13, 2018)

Given how much derivative, cookie-cutter shit the people on this forum listen to, buy or play anyway, I can't see why anyone would have any issue with another clone. It's only as ethically bankrupt as listing meshuggah and periphery as "influences" then sounding like a covers band playing the sections in the wrong order.


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## MTGeezy (Feb 13, 2018)

This thread is full of cancer.

HNGD OP. I'd play that!


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## Demiurge (Feb 13, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Given how much derivative, cookie-cutter shit the people on this forum listen to, buy or play anyway, I can't see why anyone would have any issue with another clone. It's only as ethically bankrupt as listing meshuggah and periphery as "influences" then sounding like a covers band playing the sections in the wrong order.



People can like and play whatever they want, but I think there's a point in there about the pretense of originality, especially in, ahem, certain musical communities. Most things are just re-aggregations of already-existing elements, yet some of these aggregations are deemed original at arbitrary points in time. A certain configuration of chugs & widdley sequences is somehow a vanguard of modernity in music. A certain configuration of decades-old common guitar features is somehow an original IP that gets litigated in $300 NGD threads.


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## vortex_infinium (Feb 13, 2018)

Both grains on the body appear to be going in the same direction. In regards to structural integrity, are there any glaring downsides to having two body planks glued diagonally like that?


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## bostjan (Feb 13, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Given how much derivative, cookie-cutter shit the people on this forum listen to, buy or play anyway, I can't see why anyone would have any issue with another clone. It's only as ethically bankrupt as listing meshuggah and periphery as "influences" then sounding like a covers band playing the sections in the wrong order.


So, is my takeaway from your argument that an unauthorized replica guitar is cool because you don't like djent?


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## TedintheShed (Feb 13, 2018)

BangandBreach said:


> Friendly neighborhood ANCAP checking in to say HNGD.



+1


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## Bigfan (Feb 13, 2018)

vortex_infinium said:


> Both grains on the body appear to be going in the same direction. In regards to structural integrity, are there any glaring downsides to having two body planks glued diagonally like that?



I'll let you know if it unexpectadly splits in two mid-shred.


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## lewis (Feb 13, 2018)

Bigfan said:


> I'll let you know if it unexpectadly splits in two mid-shred.


oh are you building a BC Rich?


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## Curt (Feb 13, 2018)

BangandBreach said:


> ANCAP


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## Bigfan (Feb 13, 2018)

lewis said:


> oh are you building a BC Rich?


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## toolsound (Feb 13, 2018)

I have a hard time believing these copy guitars actually hurt anyone's business. If I'm buying a copy of anything (and I have) it's because I have no intention of buying the real thing, likely because it's simply too expensive. Also, I haven't had the experience of buying a copy and it playing just as good as the real deal. This fakemachine has painted inserts for crying out loud. It's a copy, not a clone.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Feb 13, 2018)

toolsound said:


> I have a hard time believing these copy guitars actually hurt anyone's business. If I'm buying a copy of anything (and I have) it's because I have no intention of buying the real thing, likely because it's simply too expensive. Also, I haven't had the experience of buying a copy and it playing just as good as the real deal. This fakemachine has painted inserts for crying out loud. It's a copy, not a clone.


Meanwhile, ripping off the tube screamer, distortion +, Fender amp and guitar designs, etc = A-Okay.


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## xzacx (Feb 13, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Meanwhile, ripping off the tube screamer, distortion +, Fender amp and guitar designs, etc = A-Okay.



Who's saying that's ok?


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 13, 2018)

xzacx said:


> Who's saying that's ok?


all the musicians who own klon clones, dumble clones, etc. basically anyone who owns pedals 
I don't personally have a problem with clones/copies so long as they're not advertised as being the brand that they've copied/cloned. Copying an aesthetic is how visual trends occur in fine arts/architecture (ie braques and picasso leading the charge for cubism, dali for surrealism, frank lloyd wright's building style) and guitar gear is not immune to the same type of trends.


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## btbg (Feb 14, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Given how much derivative, cookie-cutter shit the people on this forum listen to, buy or play anyway, I can't see why anyone would have any issue with another clone. It's only as ethically bankrupt as listing meshuggah and periphery as "influences" then sounding like a covers band playing the sections in the wrong order.



Your opinion will always be moot ever since you tried to wow us with your wattage thread and failed horribly


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 14, 2018)

btbg said:


> Your opinion will always be moot ever since you tried to wow us with your wattage thread and failed horribly



I’ll say it, then:

_Given how much derivative, cookie-cutter shit the people on this forum listen to, buy or play anyway, I can't see why anyone would have any issue with another clone. It's only as ethically bankrupt as listing meshuggah and periphery as "influences" then sounding like a covers band playing the sections in the wrong order._

To that I add: I read this site and r/guitarcirclejerk for the same reasons. Certain parodies come and go from the subreddit because the userbase is in on the joke. Conversely, this site is a bottomless wellspring for its unintended humor _precisely _because the clowns writing all the jokes believe they’re emulating serious people:







This community exists to propagate the notion that emulating the above image is a measure of success rather than failure; and the posts produced from that mentality are rich with successes free from the burdens of joy, friendship, or promise. I love it, and love being paid to read it.

On a different note, Happy NGD.


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## Shoeless_jose (Feb 14, 2018)

How do amp modellers fit in peoples ethical IP world?


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## Dawn of the Shred (Feb 14, 2018)

Congrats and HNGD man!! Don’t worry about the haters, if you want a copy of guitar get one. It’s your money that you work for, so get what ever you want. 

Absolutely nothing wrong in ordering copies/replicas at all!!!


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## BangandBreach (Feb 14, 2018)

Curt said:


>


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## op1e (Feb 14, 2018)

I didn't see people lining up like this to Burn Kurt at the stake for the Legacy for Ibanez benefit.


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## GuitarBizarre (Feb 15, 2018)

Dineley said:


> How do amp modellers fit in peoples ethical IP world?


Generally people are fine with them, because of course they are.

Then again, when the Kemper came out, I remember there was a HUGE thread of people saying "WELL NOW THIS IS GOING TO KILL THE AMP MARKET, WHY WOULD YOU BUY A REAL AMP WHEN YOU COULD JUST PRETEND TO BUY IT, MODEL IT, THEN RETURN IT TO THE STORE? HOME AMP PROFILING IS KILLING MUSIC! DON'T COPY THAT FLOPPY!"

Surprisingly enough, there has been no sudden upturn in the number of amp returns and nobody seems to be Kemper-ing their way to a 500 Amp collection of "Stolen" sounds.


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## Zalbu (Feb 15, 2018)

So where do you draw the line of what's a ripoff or not? The most distinctive part of a Blackmachine is the headstock, does Skervesen rip them off?

And add me to the camp of people who don't think it's a problem as long as they don't try to pass it off as a genuine product of whatever's being copied. It's not like you see Suhr or Tom Anderson add the Fender logo to their Strats just to try and get the dadrockers to buy them, if you have a good design then people will copy it, it's unavoidable. Not even Gibson can fend off people copying the Les Paul, no matter how hard they try. It only hurts the original companies business if they put out inferior products to the copies, people know that Dougs Blackmachines are the holy grail of guitar building and will pay the money to own one.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 16, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Surprisingly enough, there has been no sudden upturn in the number of amp returns and nobody seems to be Kemper-ing their way to a 500 Amp collection of "Stolen" sounds.



I doubt Henning Pauly himself even remembers pushing that narrative for the sake of controversy. I do recall a few of our tenured ss.org contrarians outsourcing their recreational outrage to that particular “issue” during the time it failed to catch on.


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## manu80 (Feb 16, 2018)

so what about this ?not chinese but knock off too
https://reverb.com/item/7074021-cjs-customs-r6-blackmachine-inspired-2017-natural-zebra-wood


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## Seabeast2000 (Feb 16, 2018)

Dineley said:


> How do amp modellers fit in peoples ethical IP world?



Great question. For fun, how much "gear" is in a Helix or Axe FX? 
$100K of amps, cabs, fx and microphones, maybe? Less? More? Not sure, I don't have one.


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## Shoeless_jose (Feb 16, 2018)

The906 said:


> Great question. For fun, how much "gear" is in a Helix or Axe FX?
> $100K of amps, cabs, fx and microphones, maybe? Less? More? Not sure, I don't have one.



Yeah I hate to steer off on a tangent but modellers of Soldanos Bogners Dumbles and other high end stuff get a pass for some reason.

But whatever once again OP hope you enjoy your guitar.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 17, 2018)

manu80 said:


> so what about this ?not chinese but knock off too
> https://reverb.com/item/7074021-cjs-customs-r6-blackmachine-inspired-2017-natural-zebra-wood



He has “blackmachine” in the listing title to both get the obvious resemblance out of the way and to catch the attention of the fakemachine market. The item is not branded with what it’s imitating; and so is no more an issue than a Blackmachine not being branded “Ibanez.” 

What I take issue with is a guy selling his first build as if it’s anything more than a “luthier project” listing. As soon as he builds a second one, he’s going to consider the last one to have been a hunk of shit. If I catch this guy trying to build a business off selling garage fakemachines to djentards on Reverb, I’ll make a thread detailing my PMs asking which Aliexpress kit he’s assembling and selling.


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## crackout (Feb 17, 2018)

What I find funny is the fact that despite this thing being his first build he already has a company and model name.
That's just bullshit.


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## Zalbu (Feb 17, 2018)

crackout said:


> What I find funny is the fact that despite this thing being his first build he already has a company and model name.
> That's just bullshit.


...coming up with a company and model name before you start selling products when you plan on starting a company is bullshit?







The guy obviously knows what he's doing and it's not the first guitar he's built, just the first he's selling under his company name


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## crackout (Feb 17, 2018)

Zalbu said:


> ...coming up with a company and model name before you start selling products when you plan on starting a company is bullshit?
> 
> The guy obviously knows what he's doing and it's not the first guitar he's built, just the first he's selling under his company name



Where is it obvious? "It Was my first build so does have it's flaws. but it plays very well""
This says it's his first build. Besides, which flaws is he taking about? He does not address them after mentioning them. 

So, excuse my French. This stays bullshit.


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## Demiurge (Feb 18, 2018)

"He completed one build and has a company name? Where do I send my deposit?" 
-A surprising number of people in the past


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## Andromalia (Feb 18, 2018)

xzacx said:


> I don't disagree that it's inevitable, but that doesn't mean it's OK to support either.



Rule 1 of business: whatever you can get away with is fair game.



> So, excuse my French.



*cough*


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## Zalbu (Feb 18, 2018)

The guitar costs 750 bucks, not 3 grand, that's Indo Ibby territory. If he's trying to run a scam then he's not very good at it.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Feb 19, 2018)

Oh...So it’s only a seven hundred and fifty dollar scam.


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## Zalbu (Feb 19, 2018)

Just saying, if he's competent enough that the first guitar he's apparently ever built looks virtually indistinguishable from a Blackmachine then he could probably charge more than 750 bucks for it if he's trying to scam people.


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## Seabeast2000 (Feb 19, 2018)

Wait, you guys are seeing this the wrong way. 
Its S/N: 00001


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## Shoeless_jose (Feb 19, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> Oh...So it’s only a seven hundred and fifty dollar scam.



Look at his past listings and feedback. Hes clearly not a scammer. Just likely seeing if he can make a little $$ selling something that cost him more time than money.


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## gujukal (Feb 19, 2018)

It looks like a decent guitar, probably worth the money but if you buy, try it before. I mean, what do you get in that price range? Some indo Ibby, Schecter, chinese LTD and so on which are usually not perfect instruments.


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