# Guitar World Announce their Guitarist of the Decade as voted for by the readers



## Louis Cypher (Dec 3, 2019)

Alter Bridge Offical Facebook Quote:
"Mark Tremonti - Guitarist Of The Decade! #1 thanks to our friends at Guitar World and to everyone who voted!!"

https://www.facebook.com/alterbridge/posts/10157298231088558

Transcription of the Vai Headcutting Duel from Crossroads too


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## Randy (Dec 3, 2019)

Ah yes, when people think of music in the 2010s, the first person they think of is Mark Tremonti. 2010 - 2019, forever known as the era of the tribal tattoo and oversized barbell earrings.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 3, 2019)

I think Mark is a phenomenal guitarist but I probably wouldn't call him the guitarist of the decade...
Guys like Tosin/Gregg from Allegaeon have literally been doing really interesting stuff musically for 10 years now.


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## prlgmnr (Dec 3, 2019)

Of which decade sorry?


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## Demiurge (Dec 3, 2019)

I mean, good for him or whatever, but this could be seen as more of an indictment than accolade. 

The narrative popular in music journalism is that guitar-based rock is on the decline, and having this go to someone who made their bones in the 90s (but still hanging-around now) does little to refute this. Who'd he edge-out, Dave Grohl or Billy Corgan?


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## Joan Maal (Dec 3, 2019)

¿¿¿ Tremonti ??? The rest of the list has to be funny


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## Nicki (Dec 3, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think Mark is a phenomenal guitarist but I probably wouldn't call him the guitarist of the decade...
> Guys like Tosin/Gregg from Allegaeon have literally been doing really interesting stuff musically for 10 years now.



Honestly, this is incredibly long deserved for him. I've listened to Creed since Human Clay (took a lot of flak in school for that too), but even then he was an awesome guitar player. Then, his song writing in Alter Bridge and his solo stuff is top notch.

I think the other thing that needs to be considered here is that Mark's influence in the guitar community is much more vast than that of many of the other guitarists at the moment. His endorsement with PRS has lasted for freaking ever and he was one of the original two (Santana being the other). His sigs actually sell not only to hard rock & metal guys but appeal to just about everyone. His signature amp is WILDLY praised all over the internet, I think he has the most popular lessons over at Fret12. Not to mention how much he tours for both shows and clinics...

When you throw in how great of a songwriter he is, his influence and his work ethic, it's definitely easier to see why he's the top pick.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Dec 3, 2019)

A group of musicians that listen to a niche sub-genre of a niche genre on a forum for niche guitars find this an odd choice.


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## Randy (Dec 3, 2019)

Joan Maal said:


> ¿¿¿ Tremonti ??? The rest of the list has to be funny



I'm going to assume its Kirk Hammett, Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Slash and then Synester Gates five times.


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## wankerness (Dec 3, 2019)

Demiurge said:


> I mean, good for him or whatever, but this could be seen as more of an indictment than accolade.
> 
> The narrative popular in music journalism is that guitar-based rock is on the decline, and having this go to someone who made their bones in the 90s (but still hanging-around now) does little to refute this. Who'd he edge-out, Dave Grohl or Billy Corgan?



agreed with all of this. I had no idea this guy was even still playing after Creed broke up!

Dave Grohl at least is still mega-famous!


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 3, 2019)

What decade? 
No denying his influence on buttrock, but that was over a decade ago.


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## ThePIGI King (Dec 3, 2019)

Randy said:


> I'm going to assume its Kirk Hammett, Eddie Van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, Slash and then Synester Gates five times.


It says it in the pic
Mark, Tosin, Gary Clark, Nita
Then it cuts off.


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## mastapimp (Dec 3, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think Mark is a phenomenal guitarist but I probably wouldn't call him the guitarist of the decade...
> Guys like Tosin/Gregg from Allegaeon have literally been doing really interesting stuff musically for 10 years now.


The man has skills but I agree that he's not someone I'd put on the "top guitarist" list for any of the last 10 years. I guess he's the closest we have to a traditional guitar hero these days that puts out commercially accepted music and plays a somewhat "normal" guitar. 

I didn't even know he was still touring...must have missed him as opener for all those Sevendust dates last year.


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## Nicki (Dec 3, 2019)

ThePIGI King said:


> It says it in the pic
> Mark, Tosin, Gary Clark, Nita
> Then it cuts off.


Daniel Donato also posted on his facebook back in October that he was nominated along with John Mayer, Joe Bonamassa and Gary Clark Jr.


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## efiltsohg (Dec 3, 2019)

Mark Tremonti is one of those guys who seems to be all over guitar magazines etc but I don't know anybody who actually listens to or claims influence from him

edit: he does have some great gear though


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## Drew (Dec 3, 2019)

wankerness said:


> agreed with all of this. I had no idea this guy was even still playing after Creed broke up!


The first two Alter Bridge albums are actually _really_ good. Third would have been too if it wasn't smashed to fuck in the mastering stage. 

I like Tremonti, no shame there. Writes killer riffs, the first Creed album was great and all the shittiness after that was mostly Scott Stapp's fault, and between the demise of Creed and the first AB album the guy put some serious time in woodshedding and working with Troy Stetina. These days, seeing that guy getting prominent thanks in the liner notes of an album is pretty damned cool.

Guitarist of the decade, eeeeeh.... But, I dig his playing.


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## Ralyks (Dec 3, 2019)

Tremonti is a good player. No questions there. But guitarist of the decade? I’m not even into Animals As Leaders as much as I was when the first record came out, but Even I’d say Tosin deserves the title. Ultra creative, does try to keep pushing boundaries, and he’s managed SOME mainstream crossover, as minor as it may be.


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## Sollipsist (Dec 3, 2019)

Randy said:


> Ah yes, when people think of music in the 2010s, the first person they think of is Mark Tremonti. 2010 - 2019, forever known as the era of the tribal tattoo and oversized barbell earrings.


That's pretty optimistic about the era ending


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## Sollipsist (Dec 3, 2019)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> A group of musicians that listen to a niche sub-genre of a niche genre on a forum for niche guitars find this an odd choice.


And on the other side of the spectrum, TDPRI finds him an odd choice for the exact opposite reasons 

I suspect it's like the Oscars or Grammys, where you get an award mainly because you did something important 10-20 years ago that they ignored in favor of the flavor of the week.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 3, 2019)

Well deserved award. No sarcasm.


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## Adieu (Dec 3, 2019)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> A group of musicians that listen to a niche sub-genre of a niche genre on a forum for niche guitars find this an odd choice.



...even though we fukken loooooove his signature amp.

Maybe despite it being his signature amp


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 3, 2019)

I can't imagine Guitar World is very relevant in 2019


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## Sumsar (Dec 3, 2019)

^ Yeah I agree, do anyone read magazines these days anyway?

I mean youtube and forums must pretty much cover everything those magazines has to offer anyway, right?
Or maybe this just tells us that the people that DO actually still read magazines also know who Mark Tremonti is


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## bostjan (Dec 3, 2019)

Sumsar said:


> ^ Yeah I agree, do anyone read magazines these days anyway?
> 
> I mean youtube and forums must pretty much cover everything those magazines has to offer anyway, right?
> Or maybe this just tells us that the people that DO actually still read magazines also know who Mark Tremonti is


Who uses forums still?

-----

Mark Tremonti?! Has Alter Bridge even been in the limelight at all this decade? Maybe the Dec 2029 issue will name Jimi Hendrix as guitarist of the decade? Or maybe Django Reinhardt?


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Dec 3, 2019)

Louis Cypher said:


> Alter Bridge Offical Facebook Quote:
> "Mark Tremonti - Guitarist Of The Decade! #1 thanks to our friends at Guitar World and to everyone who voted!!"
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/alterbridge/posts/10157298231088558
> ...


That is a very cool edition...Eugene’s Trick Bag was my introduction to shred, and it never went away......

But Tremonti guitarist of the decade? Pretty strange choice...

STILL, I’m pickin up a copy


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Dec 3, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> Mark Tremonti is one of those guys who seems to be all over guitar magazines etc but I don't know anybody who actually listens to or claims influence from him
> 
> edit: he does have some great gear though


Lamb of God stole the entire first half of their career from a single Tremonti riff.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 3, 2019)

bostjan said:


> Mark Tremonti?! Has Alter Bridge even been in the limelight at all this decade? Maybe the Dec 2029 issue will name Jimi Hendrix as guitarist of the decade? Or maybe Django Reinhardt?



I don't think I've ever heard any of his music on the radio here near San Francisco, but I would hear it regularly when I was back home in Wisconsin the last time or two i was out there. And apparently they are big enough for Anderton's to do a "Sounds like" video for Alter bridge 4 years ago, and another just for Mark this year. No, I'm not saying Andertons are any sort of authority, just something I noticed.


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## gunshow86de (Dec 3, 2019)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Lamb of God stole the entire first half of their career from a single Tremonti riff.


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## bostjan (Dec 3, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I don't think I've ever heard any of his music on the radio here near San Francisco, but I would hear it regularly when I was back home in Wisconsin the last time or two i was out there. And apparently they are big enough for Anderton's to do a "Sounds like" video for Alter bridge 4 years ago, and another just for Mark this year. No, I'm not saying Andertons are any sort of authority, just something I noticed.



Okay. Who did they do most recently in that series? Bon Jovi? They released their "Greatest Hits" in 2010. They've also done one for the Beatles and one for Jimi Hendrix.

I looked them up, though, and Alter Bridge has been pretty busy this decade.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 3, 2019)

bostjan said:


> Okay. Who did they do most recently in that series? Bon Jovi? They released their "Greatest Hits" in 2010. They've also done one for the Beatles and one for Jimi Hendrix.
> 
> I looked them up, though, and Alter Bridge has been pretty busy this decade.


Alter Bridge has put out like 3 killer albums in the last 10 years. Mark writes some gnarly riffs when he wants to (see metalingus/addicted to pain/ties that bind/cry of achilles)


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## Humbuck (Dec 3, 2019)

Who??


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Dec 3, 2019)

Billy “tone paint” Corgan


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## beerandbeards (Dec 3, 2019)

Who are the five greatest guitarist of all time?
Petrucci, Petrucci, Petrucci, Petrucci and Petrucci


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Dec 3, 2019)

gunshow86de said:


>


Skip to like :45


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## gunshow86de (Dec 3, 2019)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Skip to like :45




So one obscure song that sounds nothing like the multiple hit songs Creed has released = "Lamb of God stole the entire first half of their career from a single Tremonti riff?" That is one scorching hot take.

Not to mention Lamb of God/Burn the Priest pre-dates the album on which this song appears.


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## Avedas (Dec 3, 2019)

Well I'm glad Gary Clark Jr. didn't win, at least. Dude is a great musician but a pretty mediocre guitarist.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Dec 3, 2019)

gunshow86de said:


> So one obscure song that sounds nothing like the multiple hit songs Creed has released = "Lamb of God stole the entire first half of their career from a single Tremonti riff?" That is one scorching hot take.
> 
> Not to mention Lamb of God/Burn the Priest pre-dates the album on which this song appears.


Yeah that one riff pretty much sums up the lamb of god sound once their career took off. Much after "burn the priest".


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## bostjan (Dec 3, 2019)

That's a pretty generic metal guitar riff. I'm sure there is a Lamb of God riff somewhere that is somewhat similar, but nothing else about that song is anything like anything else about Lamb of God


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## InCasinoOut (Dec 4, 2019)

Adieu said:


> ...even though we fukken loooooove his signature amp.
> 
> Maybe despite it being his signature amp


Ha, yeah. So many guys have already figured out how to flip the metal casing around so it doesn't say MT15 on the front, just in case another guitarist might think you're into buttrock.

edit: and I've been GASing for that amp for a while, and yes, I would flip the casing around.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 4, 2019)

Oh wow, that Creed video is hilariously bad. Xavier Renegade Angel lookin ass video


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## USMarine75 (Dec 4, 2019)

Their songs are... very... listenable. I quite like these to jam along to and sing along to with the kids. He's a killer rock rhythm "riff" writer:





Funny side note... Tremonti is a TERRIBLE singer. (trying to find the live video where Myles looks at him like dude wtf)


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## Adieu (Dec 4, 2019)

If they traded their vocalist for a hot chick with some operatic skills, I might actually like them

Not feeling it with this guy, though


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## couverdure (Dec 4, 2019)

Adieu said:


> If they traded their vocalist for a hot chick with some operatic skills, I might actually like them
> 
> Not feeling it with this guy, though


I wonder what makes you think someone being female and attractive would make a better singer.
Also Myles Kennedy has some killer pipes and I'd choose him over Stapp and Axl Rose (Myles is the vocalist for Slash's solo band) any day.


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## Adieu (Dec 4, 2019)

couverdure said:


> I wonder what makes you think someone being female and attractive would make a better singer.
> Also Myles Kennedy has some killer pipes and I'd choose him over Stapp and Axl Rose (Myles is the vocalist for Slash's solo band) any day.




...i don't like listening to dudes sing.

It's like how women's beach volleyball is infinitely superior. Because they're not dudes.


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Dec 4, 2019)

This video has to be made by the Shrek is love dude. 


Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Skip to like :45


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## Nicki (Dec 4, 2019)

USMarine75 said:


> Funny side note... Tremonti is a TERRIBLE singer. (trying to find the live video where Myles looks at him like dude wtf)



A terrible singer? He's not the greatest singer of all time, but he certainly isn't "terrible".


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## Solodini (Dec 4, 2019)

I'm surprised it wasn't Guthrie tbh.


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## StevenC (Dec 4, 2019)

This really turned into the "Tremonti isn't that bad" thread very quickly, especially when videos of Tosin and his influence don't even need to be posted. It's not unfair to say this magazine's readers are just wrong.

Not to mention Strandberg basically owes their existence to Tosin.


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## ikarus (Dec 4, 2019)

Here is the one with Tosin. Are wer sure that it is even a ranking since it says guitaristS?


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## DeathbyDesign (Dec 4, 2019)

Nicki said:


> A terrible singer? He's not the greatest singer of all time, but he certainly isn't "terrible".



I saw Tremonti open for Trivium a couple of years ago out here in AZ and I was surprised. The band sounded really good and his vocals were pretty close to the records. I like Tremonti more than Alter Bridge.


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## Nicki (Dec 4, 2019)

StevenC said:


> This really turned into the "Tremonti isn't that bad" thread very quickly, especially when videos of Tosin and his influence don't even need to be posted. It's not unfair to say this magazine's readers are just wrong.
> 
> Not to mention Strandberg basically owes their existence to Tosin.


Sorry. I have to disagree with you. Tosin has very little influence over the guitar community when compared to Tremonti. You really don't see a lot of his signature guitars popping up in the hands of consumers, nor his Fishman Fluence pickups, or cover videos or just about anything Tosin related other than mentions in articles and threads that basically boil down to "yeah, he plays guitar". Have you seen any footage of Animals As Leaders playing the huge rock & metal festivals? I haven't...

Even looking at album sales and chart positions, Alter Bridge has Animals As Leaders beat by leaps and bounds.

Alter Bridge's debut album sold 750 000 copies. Peaked US charts at #5 & certified RIAA Gold. Subsequent albums were BPI silver. Even Tremonti's solo album Cauterize charted higher in the US (at position 20) than any Animals as Leaders album.

Animals as Leaders highest US chart position was 23 with The Joy of Motion which sold 50 000 copies and none of their albums are certified by either RIAA or BPI.

Apples to apples comparisons with quantifiable data kinda support's the GW reader's opinions.



DeathbyDesign said:


> I saw Tremonti open for Trivium a couple of years ago out here in AZ and I was surprised. The band sounded really good and his vocals were pretty close to the records. I like Tremonti more than Alter Bridge.


I agree. I think Tremonti as a solo artists produces better music. There's only a couple of AB songs that I really like.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 4, 2019)

Duh, pop music will always sell more than music you actually might have to activate three or four brain cells to enjoy. 
Tremonti probably sells a lot more gear to people who are just starting out, or think they might wanna play because their exposure to "guitar music" consists of what they heard on the radio. As far as what I would call the actual "guitar community" guys like Abasi and Govan are more or less like the Satriani and Vai of the era. If we start equating popularity to quality, guitar music is gonna be dead like everyone says it is already soon enough. Next thing you'll see one of the dinguses from FFDP on one of these polls.....


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## possumkiller (Dec 4, 2019)

I've got my eye on Dean DeLeo for next year. He's another young whipper snapper that's been taking off like wildfire.


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## efiltsohg (Dec 4, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> As far as what I would call the actual "guitar community" guys like Abasi and Govan are more or less like the Satriani and Vai of the era.



you mean really boring?


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 4, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> you mean really boring?


No, I mean technically better players than 99% of anyone who touches the instrument and pushing playing ability and the scope of the instrument forward. If the music isn't for everyone, that's fine, but its Guitar World magazine, not Pop Music With Guitars magazine.


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## gunshow86de (Dec 4, 2019)

I'm just amazed Zakk Wylde isn't on one of the covers.


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## NoodleFace (Dec 4, 2019)

gunshow86de said:


> I'm just amazed Zakk Wylde isn't on one of the covers.


He would be if it were up to me. I know he's a polarizing person, and I know people hate his overuse of pinch harmonics, but if we're talking most accomplished guitarists he should be up there. And he has a pretty good voice when he wants to. He's the guy that got me into guitar, so maybe my opinion is biased.

I've never once considered Tremonti for his playing or his influence, just the stuff I've listened to I've never crossed paths with his music. I remember early in his career he was kind of a meme, but as far as I can tell he's gotten much better over the years and writes good stuff. Not really able to give a good opinion though, because he's just never been an entity to me.

Much the same, Tosin hasn't influenced me at all. Monster player, sure, but I would bet most guitarists don't even know who he is unless they happened to see him at Generation Axe or something. I only know of him because of this place. He's probably influenced a lot less people just because of how niche his sound and guitar brand is.

In any case, Guitar World awards are kind of meaningless anyways. Those magazines became irrelevant to me ever since the internet was created. Am I dating myself here...


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 4, 2019)

The guitarist from Sublime sold a lot of acoustics.


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## Drew (Dec 4, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> you mean really boring?


Abasi I don't know well enough to weigh in on - what I've heard is very unique, but also not really for me. 

Govan... I don't _love_ his solo playing or his style when left to his own devices, but he's a stupendous guitarist and I've really enjoyed what he can bring to a band situaiton. His playing on Steven Wilson's "The Raven That Refused to Sing (and Other Ghost Stories)" was fucking stunning.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 4, 2019)

It's always interesting to see what people are noting in their own exploration of music or the circles they work in. For the last 8-9 years Tosin, Misha, the 'Shuggah dudes, Lucas Mann, Sarah Longfield, John Browne, etc always come up in conversation about guitars/music, but I don't think I've heard one person mention Tremonti since Creed was still a thing. But then it seems a lot of people have the exact opposite experience.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 4, 2019)

StevenC said:


> This really turned into the "Tremonti isn't that bad"


Because he's not bad.  A lot of people here think Creed's the only thing he's done. Alter Bridge is still releasing albums and JUST released a new one this October. Hell a lot of people consider Fortress Alter Bridge's best album, and that was just released in 2013. On top of that Tremonti's solo shit has been really, really solid.

Fuck it, I'll throw in another hot take; All I Was is probably one of my top 5 albums of the decade.


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## StevenC (Dec 4, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Because he's not bad.  A lot of people here think Creed's the only thing he's done. Alter Bridge is still releasing albums and JUST released a new one this October. Hell a lot of people consider Fortress Alter Bridge's best album, and that was just released in 2013. On top of that Tremonti's solo shit has been really, really solid.
> 
> Fuck it, I'll throw in another hot take; All I Was is probably one of my top 5 albums of the decade.


Yeah, he may or may not be bad, I only know him from his association with PRS. But it's not a good sign if a guitarist of the decade winner has to be defended so fiercely.

Like, if you said Steve Vai was the greatest guitarist of the 90s most people would probably say that's a fair opinion. If you said Kurt Cobain was the greatest guitarist of the 90s, while wrong you'd still have a good argument to make. If you said Jimmy Page was the greatest guitarist of the 90s most people would ask what exactly he did in that decade that was more valuable than Steve Vai or Kurt Cobain.


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## c7spheres (Dec 4, 2019)

My favorite thing Tremonti has done (that I've heard) is the first half of the very first Tremonti solo album. I never got into Creed or Alterbridge at all though. 
- The cover does say guitarists with an "s" not guitarist of the decade. Does it really matter anyways? Who cares what some people that work at a guitar mag think about who's best anyways, if this is a list or who's best? Who care's what fan's vote on about who's best. It doens't mean anything to me. It's like when Rolling Stone came out with their list. Who cares? I like what I like. Some of my favortire and most influential guitarists don't even have albums out and nobody will ever know they exist because that side of the industry doesn't interest them. In fact it's a detriment to them.


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## JSanta (Dec 4, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Yeah, he may or may not be bad, I only know him from his association with PRS. But it's not a good sign if a guitarist of the decade winner has to be defended so fiercely.
> 
> Like, if you said Steve Vai was the greatest guitarist of the 90s most people would probably say that's a fair opinion. If you said Kurt Cobain was the greatest guitarist of the 90s, while wrong you'd still have a good argument to make. If you said Jimmy Page was the greatest guitarist of the 90s most people would ask what exactly he did in that decade that was more valuable than Steve Vai or Kurt Cobain.



This might not be the right forum for Tremonti stuff I think. I've probably listened to his solo stuff the past two years as much as I've listened to anything else in all honesty. Fantastic songwriting, great guitar playing. There's not much more I can really ask for in an album or an artist. I genuinely like his solo stuff more than I enjoy Alter Bridge, but there's no denying that Mark Tremonti continues to be a huge force in the general music community. The accolades are well-deserved IMO.


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## prlgmnr (Dec 4, 2019)

NoodleFace said:


> I know he's a polarizing person, and I know people hate his overuse of pinch harmonics



woah woah woah woah


people _dislike_ that?


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## cardinal (Dec 4, 2019)

Given that the covers say "1 of 4" and as @ikarus noticed, it says guitarists (plural), they probably took the top four from the voting.

Personally, I agree with @GunpointMetal that it seems that the Meshuggah guitarists if not hugely influential directly seem to have captured the zeitgeist of heavy music from the past decade or so; I probably would have voted for them had I cared enough to even realize guitar magazines were still a thing and taking polls of such things.

But, Tremonti writes some really great riffs, that's for sure.


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## Bobby69 (Dec 4, 2019)

I'm very confused as to why Mark won. There are so many guitarists that are great, but don't have the attention of the guitarist community. Aside from not liking recent solo work, John Mayer has to be the most virtuoso guitarist performing. I'm just not that impressed by Mark's stuff - it's too generic IMO. Like how is playing a djent riff with some soulless shredding that impressive? Improvising a guitar solo based on simply feeling the music is another level that is too unappreciated. Congrats to Mark, but he's not even in the same ballpark as the people I look up to.


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## mastapimp (Dec 4, 2019)

You'd think they'd put the "guitarist of the decade" on more than one cover since April 2001.


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## TheTrooper (Dec 4, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> No, I mean technically better players than 99% of anyone who touches the instrument and pushing playing ability and the scope of the instrument forward. If the music isn't for everyone, that's fine, but its Guitar World magazine, not Pop Music With Guitars magazine.


Music isn't a sport, music is music.

Their technical abilities mean nothing in the big picture that is "what get's most radioplay/sales/streams".
What sells is what (most) people like to hear.
AB/Tremonti are a Rock/alternative group, the kind of Rock that sells; AAL and Aristocrats are Rock/prog/fusion that sells to people that PLAY guitar/metal/fusion/instrumental music.

The magazine is called "Guitar World", not "Metal Guitar World"; if they want to include John Mayer they have all the right to do so.

(I am a fan of Tosin's and Guthrie's music, but let's avoid profanity here: what Passion & Warfare and Surfing with the Alien REALLY meant to guitar music, will N E V E R be achieved again )


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## Bobby69 (Dec 4, 2019)

TheTrooper said:


> Music isn't a sport, music is music.
> 
> Their technical abilities mean nothing in the big picture that is "what get's most radioplay/sales/streams".
> What sells is what (most) people like to hear.
> ...



I guess I had no idea how popular Alter Bridge is. Not to be a jerk, but anything I hear that resembles "that sound" just seems clichéd and passé to me - so I don't keep up with how well they're doing.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 4, 2019)

TheTrooper said:


> Music isn't a sport, music is music.
> 
> Their technical abilities mean nothing in the big picture that is "what get's most radioplay/sales/streams".
> What sells is what (most) people like to hear.


And sales/radio play/streams have nothing to do with guitar ability or influence, by that logic Taylor Swift is actually the single most influential guitarist alive because of record sales and she does play guitar, so its a circular argument in the context of the guitar community. Shit, Three Days Grace probably has more sales than AAL and company, and you can play most of their stuff after your fourth lesson. I really don't understand the "well, most morons like this stuff and buy it, so its good" mentality (not saying everyone who enjoys average pop hard rock is a moron, just that a lot more morons would like it than AAL. If this was "Guys Over Thirty Five That Still Rock Bedazzled Jeans" magazine, I could understand.



TheTrooper said:


> AB/Tremonti are a Rock/alternative group, the kind of Rock that sells; AAL and Aristocrats are Rock/prog/fusion that sells to people that PLAY guitar/metal/fusion/instrumental music.


 Again, what does pop music sales have to do with influence on the guitar community?



TheTrooper said:


> The magazine is called "Guitar World", not "Metal Guitar World"; if they want to include John Mayer they have all the right to do so.


 and John Mayer would probably actually be reasonable addition to the list, and Tremonti is, too, now that I'm being made aware of the fact that he's still releasing music (even if the stuff I checked out from this thread could be literally interchangeable with almost any modern "radio rock" band and I wouldn't be able to tell). The point I was trying to get it is, as a guitarist that interacts with musicians/guitarist, many of whom reside well outside of the metal/rock/fusion/mathcore stuff that I play and listen to, nobody is talking about Tremonti in relation to guitar. But this thread has already gone on long enough on the idea that he was named the singular guitarist of the decade, as its a list of people that have all influenced guitar (I guess, apparently), so all around it's a moot argument, anyways. His playing is solid, his riffs are catchy, but so is pretty much every other guitarist that is on the radio. I don't hear anything unique or different about it to warrant any influence. 



Bobby69 said:


> I guess I had no idea how popular Alter Bridge is. Not to be a jerk, but anything I hear that resembles "that sound" just seems clichéd and passé to me - so I don't keep up with how well they're doing.


Exactly. I've probably heard a bunch of his more recent output, but I just assumed it was another throwaway radio rock band and never paid any attention.


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## stevexc (Dec 4, 2019)

Here's another cover featuring Nita Strauss... and I'm assuming there's a 4th with Gary Clark Jr, too. If it wasn't already completely obvious that GW didn't crown Tremonti #1 Guitarist Of The Decade, after seeing these other two covers it should definitely be. So what's the fuss again?


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## fps (Dec 4, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Yeah, he may or may not be bad, I only know him from his association with PRS. But it's not a good sign if a guitarist of the decade winner has to be defended so fiercely.



Nonsense. The internet is a cesspool of whinging losers who take to their keyboards to complain about every minute aspect of others' success due to their own bitterness and inferiority. It's everywhere. No winner of any popularity would have been greeted without those sad little bile bottles having a go.


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## NoodleFace (Dec 4, 2019)

You can tell how out of touch people are with guitar as a whole when Sarah Longfield is mentioned. She is a great player, don't get me wrong - but her mark thus far on the guitar world is nowhere as close as any of the 4 on the cover of Guitar World. I'm not trying to belittle her, but I think that opinion that if they aren't in your bubble they don't count is wildly out of touch.


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 4, 2019)

NoodleFace said:


> You can tell how out of touch people are with guitar as a whole when Sarah Longfield is mentioned. She is a great player, don't get me wrong - but her mark thus far on the guitar world is nowhere as close as any of the 4 on the cover of Guitar World. I'm not trying to belittle her, but I think that opinion that if they aren't in your bubble they don't count is wildly out of touch.


 I agree, but that was the point of mentioning her. I hear that name more than Mark Tremonti, and she barely makes music anymore. I'm sure it does have a lot to do with she's from my city. But even the loads of buttrockers and nu metalers we play with, hang out with, go see at shows, nobody has ever said "yo did you hear that new Tremonti/Alter Bridge? The guitar playing is siiiiiick." Nobody says that.


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## Bobby69 (Dec 4, 2019)

The community of guitarist has moved away from the Hendrix, Clapton, Page, etc. [legends] to idolizing dudes with with bad goatees and hoop metal earrings. It’s a shame because there are people still creating truly original music. Derek Trucks, Marcus King, Billy Strings, John Mayer (Should be playing blues instead of trying to write pop hits into his 40’s, however his improvising with Dead & Co is unreal) - catch one of these guys shows, and I can guarantee you will feel silly about what you used to consider mind blowing guitar playing.


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## c7spheres (Dec 4, 2019)

TheTrooper said:


> Music isn't a sport, music is music.
> 
> (I am a fan of Tosin's and Guthrie's music, but let's avoid profanity here: what Passion & Warfare and Surfing with the Alien REALLY meant to guitar music, will N E V E R be achieved again )



- You might get a lot of flak about this, but I agree. I really don't think most people (even guitar players) know exactly how profound an album like Passion and Warfare is in terms of guitar playing. Passion and Warfare is extraordinarily difficult on a technical level, is modern, and it includes fast playing as well. Comparing it to something like RoS or other people/bands doing that type stuff quickly shows it's an entirely different thing, even techincally. I think Passion and Warfare is far more advanced compared to this type of stuff.
- I also think people confuse technical proficiency with physical speed which, imo, has very little to do with it. It might even be the opposite under certain circumstances. I believe many guitar players think this because they're still mesmerized by the gymnasitics some players can do. Once you get to a certain level with speed and gymnasitcs however, it actually gets quite boring and is usually uneventful, imo, . . though not always.
- Some players that do Not shred fast legatos and arpeggio sweeps and other gymastic feats however are doing much more techincally complex things, and they are so good most people don't even know what they're doing in terms of dynamics and feel. The usual list of names always comes to mind like Gilmore, Page, Hendrix, Zappa, Beck, Angus, etc. None of them were shredders, but all of them are/were some of the most technically proficient players of all time for sure. They just weren't shredders in the Modern sense of the word of playing fast sweeping arpeggio stuff etc.. 
- If you want to experience really crazy control and proficiency look at the old blues and jazz guys. They are the epitome of the proficiency that modern players seem to be obliviious to. Listen, and if you think to yourself "So what? big deal. He's just doing a little bendy, he's just hitting a note and letting it ring out, he ain't doing anything, that's boring!" That's exactly my point. People that say that probably haven't felt "it" yet. They haven't made that connection yet. They still have to develop in that regard. Once you've lived it. You'll get it. You can't learn this stuff you can only experience it.
- This isn't to be taken or given as an insult, btw.
- There's a few types of players. Those that hear music, and those that feel music, or, those that play with their mind and those that play from the heart. If there has to be a competition then the heart string players win every time. 
- No disrespect intended towards anyone.



Bobby69 said:


> The community of guitarist has moved away from the Hendrix, Clapton, Page, etc. [legends] to idolizing dudes with with bad goatees and hoop metal earrings. It’s a shame because there are people still creating truly original music. Derek Trucks, Marcus King, Billy Strings, John Mayer (Should be playing blues instead of trying to write pop hits into his 40’s, however his improvising with Dead & Co is unreal) - catch one of these guys shows, and I can guarantee you will feel silly about what you used to consider mind blowing guitar playing.



- Seriously. People have to be at a certain level to even recognize what's actually happening. It's why so many people crap all over it only to come back with a great respect and adoration of it later on. It's also probably why it never dies out, even though everyone is dying off. It all sounds so easy, but so much of it is really hard to play, especially compared to fast sweep licks. I think fast playing and sweep pikcing is much easier than this stuff to play.
- It's like apples and oranges. It's like comparing Frank Sinatra to John Legend. They're both very good, but there's no comparison. It's old world vs new world etc. and they really shouldn't be compared. 
- Kids idolize what's fed to them through media, just as they did in the 70's,80's,90's etc. The difference is that the guitar idols of yesteryear had the inexplicable "it" factor that NOBODY has anymore and "it" has not only left the building "it" has left the planet or went underground again or something. Nobody has "it" anymore. 
- We're all to domesticated nowadays.


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## StevenC (Dec 4, 2019)

stevexc said:


> Here's another cover featuring Nita Strauss... and I'm assuming there's a 4th with Gary Clark Jr, too. If it wasn't already completely obvious that GW didn't crown Tremonti #1 Guitarist Of The Decade, after seeing these other two covers it should definitely be. So what's the fuss again?


Yeah, this struck me when I saw all the Abasi related accounts post his cover and using the phrase "one of" but Tremonti posted about being #1. So now we're in the situation where either he's right having read the issue already (is it out yet?) or he saw his face on the cover and jumped to the conclusion all by himself.

Personally, I'm hoping it's the former.


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## bostjan (Dec 4, 2019)

I have no issues with Tremonti as a musician. I had woefully underestimated how popular Alter Bridge has been the past ten years.

That said.

I really don't see how he's anyone's _favourite_ guitarist. Altered Bridge riffs are good, but, face it, there are some next-level riff guitarists out there. Technically, I don't think there's anything to say about him good or bad- he does just fine but isn't pushing any technique envelopes. Popularity-wise, he's nowhere near the Jonas Brothers or even Lil Wayne.

As far as being Iconic: Slash has his top hat, SRV had his tone, Gojira does the 2nd fret natural harmonic rake-thing, Zakk does pinch harmonics, and Tremonti might be the only guitarist to not have any distinguishing characteristics. 

So here's what I think we can learn from this thread: there are a lot of Gen X people who subscribe to Guitar Magazines and don't care about trends nor about technical playing. And for a group like this, that's mildly surprising (on average).


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## Vyn (Dec 4, 2019)

I actually agree with Nita Strauss being on that list - not only a fantastic guitarist playing for a huge band she's managed to get to a level of visability that no other rock/metal female guitarist has managed and inspired a ton of girls to start playing.


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## NoodleFace (Dec 4, 2019)

Vyn said:


> I actually agree with Nita Strauss being on that list - not only a fantastic guitarist playing for a huge band she's managed to get to a level of visability that no other rock/metal female guitarist has managed and inspired a ton of girls to start playing.


This is going to sound extremely sexist, but Nita is one of the first female guitarists I've watched where I didn't think "wow a chick is playing", and just saw a guitarist playing. It might be that she doesn't have the characteristically small woman hands you usually see too


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## stevexc (Dec 4, 2019)

Something else everyone seems to be forgetting... Tremonti has been Guitar World's golden boy for YEARS. The guy's been their Guitarist Of The Year 3 times in a row. Of COURSE he's gonna get a cover and a place on the list (which, knowing GW, probably isn't ranked). Regardless what the microcosm of SSO thinks of him in your professional armchair opinions, the guys making the list are a little bit biased.


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## StevenC (Dec 4, 2019)

stevexc said:


> Something else everyone seems to be forgetting... Tremonti has been Guitar World's golden boy for YEARS. The guy's been their Guitarist Of The Year 3 times in a row. Of COURSE he's gonna get a cover and a place on the list (which, knowing GW, probably isn't ranked). Regardless what the microcosm of SSO thinks of him in your professional armchair opinions, the guys making the list are a little bit biased.


So you're saying Tremonti just has the ego to assume he's number one on the list?


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## Flappydoodle (Dec 4, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Next thing you'll see one of the dinguses from FFDP on one of these polls.....



In all fairness, both of them are really solid guitarists. Tight rhythms, and they can both shred but also play tasteful, melodic solos. And from what I've heard, they're super nice guys also. They just look and dress like douchebags.


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## USMarine75 (Dec 4, 2019)

NoodleFace said:


> This is going to sound extremely sexist, but Nita is one of the first female guitarists I've watched where I didn't think "wow a chick is playing", and just saw a guitarist playing. It might be that she doesn't have the characteristically small woman hands you usually see too


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## NoodleFace (Dec 4, 2019)

Are you saying nuno is a chick or that he has girl hands


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## BornToLooze (Dec 5, 2019)

bostjan said:


> Who uses forums still?
> 
> -----
> 
> Mark Tremonti?! Has Alter Bridge even been in the limelight at all this decade? Maybe the Dec 2029 issue will name Jimi Hendrix as guitarist of the decade? Or maybe Django Reinhardt?


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## USMarine75 (Dec 5, 2019)

NoodleFace said:


> Are you saying nuno is a chick or that he has girl hands



Notoriously tiny hands. FWIW The N4 is 3/4 sized. 

Same with Segovia.


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## prlgmnr (Dec 5, 2019)

USMarine75 said:


> Notoriously tiny hands. FWIW The N4 is 3/4 sized.
> 
> Same with Segovia.


Look fairly normal on this authentic historically accurate photograph.


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## USMarine75 (Dec 5, 2019)

prlgmnr said:


> Look fairly normal on this authentic historically accurate photograph.



10/10

Now if you could complete the image with him peeing on Vai and Yngwie's graves.


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## TheTrooper (Dec 5, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> And sales/radio play/streams have nothing to do with guitar ability or influence.....



That's what I'm saying, are we listening to band becuase we like what they do or because we like how fast/techinical their stuff is?

People should enjoy what they like, and it appears they really like Alter Bridge/Tremonti.
I'm not a fan, but I don't see why other people shouldn't enjoy their stuff.
Those same people buy GW and like to take part in the polls they make.



> Again, what does pop music sales have to do with influence on the guitar community?



Ehm.....I'm pretty positive that the amout of people The Beatles reached with their music (thus their sales) made a lot of those people pick up an instrument.


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## TheTrooper (Dec 5, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I really don't think most people (even guitar players) know exactly how profound an album like Passion and Warfare is in terms of guitar playing. Passion and Warfare is extraordinarily difficult on a technical level, is modern, and it includes fast playing as well.
> - I also think people confuse technical proficiency with physical speed which, imo, has very little to do with it. It might even be the opposite under certain circumstances. I believe many guitar players think this because they're still mesmerized by the gymnasitics some players can do. Once you get to a certain level with speed and gymnasitcs however, it actually gets quite boring and is usually uneventful, imo, . . though not always.
> - Some players that do Not shred fast legatos and arpeggio sweeps and other gymastic feats however are doing much more techincally complex things, and they are so good most people don't even know what they're doing in terms of dynamics and feel. The usual list of names always comes to mind like Gilmore, Page, Hendrix, Zappa, Beck, Angus, etc. None of them were shredders, but all of them are/were some of the most technically proficient players of all time for sure.




I second ALL of that.


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## Dayviewer (Dec 6, 2019)

Alter Bridge has a very loyal fanbase that is gaining more and more people every year, espescially in Europe where they've been getting bigger veneus and slots on festivals over time, and his solo project is also gaining more traction every release too.
So there's definitely something to say for his relevance compared to 10 years ago, though in my opinion Alter Bridge's song writing has been a bit more hit or miss lately, and their producer (Elvis Baskette) doesn't really help in the production department with smashing the whole mix to bits.
As for me, Tremonti was my favorite guitarist/songwriter for a good couple of years as well and it definitely influenced my own writing and playing, so yes, those people are "out there" 

In terms of his style he definitely has recognizable elements, both his clean finger picked melodic parts (espescially) and riffs have a distinct style to them, and show a lot more personality and flavour compared to other so called "buttrock" bands in my opinion.
His songwriting also has a great mix of heavy and melodic parts to it with memorable riffs and melodic hooks, even though some transitions are a little hamfisted, when it works, it really really works.
Next to that he has definitely put some work behind his solos after Creed, and even though they are not on the technical level most people on this forum would like to see, they are always very well balanced and executed, and again much better compared to bands that they can be compared to.

I'm not saying he "deserves" the title, but he is definitely someone special in the genre he operates in, a great influence on the people who listen to it (he certainly was to me), and he deserves a lot of credit imo.


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## sakeido (Dec 6, 2019)

imo it should have been John Mayer

It is totally bizarre how insular and isolated people on this forum seem to be. This thread has been very educational as to just how much of a bubble this place is. No wonder the music recommendations are all terrible


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 6, 2019)

sakeido said:


> imo it should have been John Mayer
> 
> It is totally bizarre how insular and isolated people on this forum seem to be. This thread has been very educational as to just how much of a bubble this place is. No wonder the music recommendations are all terrible



It is certainly funny that a technically proficient, multi-platinum, Grammy winning guitarist with consistent output, a huge and loyal following, and tons of marketable signature gear is a surprising candidate to some.

Don't get me wrong, I'm disappointed that my, and 8 other peoples', favorite YouTube djent-shredder who's still waiting on Go-Fund-Me cash for their debut single didn't win either.


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## ramses (Dec 6, 2019)

Vyn said:


> I actually agree with Nita Strauss being on that list ... inspired a ton of girls to start playing.



Which has been very good for guitar makers.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 6, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It is certainly funny that a technically proficient, multi-platinum, Grammy winning guitarist with consistent output, a huge and loyal following, and tons of marketable signature gear is a surprising candidate to some.



Yeah but my circle of friends that only listen to blackened 10 string djent prog thrash aren't inspired by him. So obviously no one knows who he is.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 6, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah but my circle of friends that only listen to blackened 10 string djent prog thrash aren't inspired by him. So obviously no one knows who he is.



I mean, is it really music if more than you and your three best friends like it ironically?


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## TedEH (Dec 6, 2019)

I've only been half following the thread, not really reading a lot of it, but I'll take the opportunity to say I'm 100% down with Nita being on that list, for her chops as a guitarist but also for her being what I think of as the right kind of "female guitarist role model" - and I'm appreciative of the fact that, while they could have gone the "hot guitarist chick" route with the cover, they kept it tasteful and about her as an artist/guitarist.


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## Splinterhead (Dec 6, 2019)

Just curious, did they mention the qualifiers on how guitarists would make this list?
Streams?
Innovation?
Media Exposure?
Contributions to guitar community?
....if they laid out what they looked at to come to their conclusions it would make things easier.


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## TedEH (Dec 6, 2019)

Does it matter much though? Realistically, nobody is going to share exactly the same set of "qualifications" for what they think is significant in being named a "guitarist of the decade".


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## stevexc (Dec 6, 2019)

Splinterhead said:


> Just curious, did they mention the qualifiers on how guitarists would make this list?
> Streams?
> Innovation?
> Media Exposure?
> ...



From the article itself:




TL;DR: chops, influence on guitarists/guitar scene, level of success, pushing guitar further, cultural relevance, visibility.


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## Drew (Dec 6, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Some players that do Not shred fast legatos and arpeggio sweeps and other gymastic feats however are doing much more techincally complex things, and they are so good most people don't even know what they're doing in terms of dynamics and feel. The usual list of names always comes to mind like Gilmore, Page, Hendrix, Zappa, Beck, Angus, etc. None of them were shredders, but all of them are/were some of the most technically proficient players of all time for sure. They just weren't shredders in the Modern sense of the word of playing fast sweeping arpeggio stuff etc..


I agree with your basic point here, and there are some crazy-good technical players in your list - Zappa and Beck being the two notable ones, though to be fair Jimi is probably better than he's given credit for among "technical" guitarists (who IMO tend to _under-_rate him a little because of how _over-_rated he is in popular culture - people seem to think just impossible things came off the guitar when he picked it up, but that's hardly the reality)... 

...but you lose me in a BIG way with a few of those names, most notably Angus Young who would be the first person to tell you he's not a technical player (I once read an interview with him where he described his band as "music for people who just want to go out and get _fucked_", which IMO speaks volumes to how much thought he's giving technical considerations). Page is a little questionable too, and had a reputation for being sloppy live (probably in no small part because he was in a band with John Bonham, whose substance consumption habits were _legendary_).

There's absolutely more to technique than playing simple lines incredibly fast, though, I'm with you to that point, and Jeff Beck's bar work is fucking unreal, in particular.


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## Metropolis (Dec 6, 2019)

NoodleFace said:


> This is going to sound extremely sexist, but Nita is one of the first female guitarists I've watched where I didn't think "wow a chick is playing", and just saw a guitarist playing. It might be that she doesn't have the characteristically small woman hands you usually see too



Kind of same... general traits of a female body don't fit to playing guitar as well as male. It's mostly due to it's somewhat physical nature and how instrument is constructed or something like that. You really need hand muscles to do that, and in some cases long fingers and big hands. Of course anyone can work their way around some physical barriers and develope their whole style around which feels comfortable enough. So, I think there is reasons why things are how they are.


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## TedEH (Dec 6, 2019)

Realistically, I don't think the size of a person's hands plays much into it. I know lots of tiny dudes with tiny hands who play perfectly well. Tons of people learn to play at a young age where their hands aren't adult sized yet.

You know what I think the difference is? Nita is presented as guitarist first instead of a woman first. There's no shortage of "guitar chick" sex objects, so to speak, but we're seeing more and more women being treated as musicians first. Her praise is earned via her playing instead of her outfit.


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## Splinterhead (Dec 6, 2019)

stevexc said:


> From the article itself:
> 
> View attachment 75289
> 
> ...



Thanks for the post!
Looks like a comprehensive list of qualifiers.
I guess after the views/likes/streams are added up it all comes down to opinion eventually...


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## cardinal (Dec 6, 2019)

So the picked 20 guitarists, and just four for the covers (of course they can't do 20 covers).

Their criteria seem to largely make sense. I guess the complaints in here boil down to terminology. "Guitarists of the Decade" maybe implies some sort of competition and ranking. This list might more be 20 guitarists who are representative of prominent genres of guitar-driven music over the last decade, which doesn't quite has the same pithiness.


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## fantom (Dec 6, 2019)

Am I the only one who thought "Tremonti" was just some PRS model name and not a real person? Creed was fine, but wasn't that like 20 years ago?


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## StevenC (Dec 6, 2019)

So Tremonti did just jump the gun and thought he was _the _guitarist of the decade? That's pretty funny.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 6, 2019)

fantom said:


> Am I the only one who thought "Tremonti" was just some PRS model name and not a real person? Creed was fine, but wasn't that like 20 years ago?



Wait people actually don't realize Alter Bridge exists and released a shit-ton more music than Creed? That and a solo career? This place really is a bubble.


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## StevenC (Dec 6, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait people actually don't realize Alter Bridge exists and released a shit-ton more music than Creed? That and a solo career? This place really is a bubble.


I didn't know he is long before I got to this forum. They have the McCarty, so I figured Tremonti was just a model name too.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 6, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I didn't know he is long before I got to this forum. They have the McCarty, so I figured Tremonti was just a model name too.



I remember PRS marketed the fuck out of the Tremonti model in the early 00's. Multiple full page ads in all the guitar magazines. 

I remember being shocked it was the dude from Creed.


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## StevenC (Dec 6, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I remember PRS marketed the fuck out of the Tremonti model in the early 00's. Multiple full page ads in all the guitar magazines.
> 
> I remember being shocked it was the dude from Creed.


A friend had one in like 2008 or 2009 and the heaviest his music taste ever got was Rory Gallagher, so I just figured it was a guitar.


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## fantom (Dec 7, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait people actually don't realize Alter Bridge exists and released a shit-ton more music than Creed? That and a solo career? This place really is a bubble.



Not everyone pays attention to every possible culture and genre of music. I know that may sound surprising, but it is true. Aside from my preferred music, I listen to various types of pop music on the radio whenever my wife is in the car. I'm not completely oblivious. I still don't think I've ever heard an Alter Bridge song or connected the band name to a song. I have seen their album covers before, but how am I supposed to know they are that famous and related to Creed if I didn't really follow Creed closely?


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## prlgmnr (Dec 7, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Kind of same... general traits of a female body don't fit to playing guitar as well as male. It's mostly due to it's somewhat physical nature and how instrument is constructed or something like that. You really need hand muscles to do that, and in some cases long fingers and big hands. Of course anyone can work their way around some physical barriers and develope their whole style around which feels comfortable enough. So, I think there is reasons why things are how they are.


Yeah and I think their brains can overheat if they try to play above 110 bpm sixteenth notes.


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## prlgmnr (Dec 7, 2019)

fucking



"hand muscles"


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## possumkiller (Dec 7, 2019)

Yeah I thought they already proved back in the 1800s that men were best at things because we have bigger brains or something? Or like the bumps on the head or something like that? Anyway, the science points to men being superior guitarists than women. It's not their fault, it's just the way God made them.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 7, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait people actually don't realize Alter Bridge exists and released a shit-ton more music than Creed? That and a solo career? This place really is a bubble.


I actually had no idea mark tremonti was still an active musician until i opened this thread


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## Adieu (Dec 7, 2019)

fantom said:


> Am I the only one who thought "Tremonti" was just some PRS model name and not a real person? Creed was fine, but wasn't that like 20 years ago?



But PRS always does that

Remember back in the day the named all their licensed Korean stuff after some Santana dude for no apparent reason?


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## Vyn (Dec 7, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait people actually don't realize Alter Bridge exists and released a shit-ton more music than Creed? That and a solo career? This place really is a bubble.



I didn’t know anything about him other than he had sig gear with PRS before this thread cropped up.


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## Metropolis (Dec 7, 2019)

prlgmnr said:


> fucking
> 
> 
> 
> "hand muscles"



Let's just call them "a nervous system which is more capable doing some things more successfully". You don't have to get all out sjw over facts because they may offend you.


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## prlgmnr (Dec 7, 2019)

ah yes, "facts"


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## Metropolis (Dec 7, 2019)

TedEH said:


> You know what I think the difference is? Nita is presented as guitarist first instead of a woman first. There's no shortage of "guitar chick" sex objects, so to speak, but we're seeing more and more women being treated as musicians first. Her praise is earned via her playing instead of her outfit.



I would disagree this. She's been previously known from an all female Iron Maiden cover band... and it would be stupid to say that looks don't matter in her case, when it obviously does.

And guitar playing being a highly physical act... I don't know what's the fuss about saying it like that. Music isn't sports and it involves lot of other traits too, but it's still how it is.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 7, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> guitar playing being a highly physical act



I mean, it ain't shot put.


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## efiltsohg (Dec 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, it ain't shot put.


for you maybe


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 7, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> for you maybe



While I'm sure there are people who, for physical reasons, cannot play guitar, I highly doubt there is a meaningful divide based primarily on gender.

While women have on average 30% less skeletal muscle (upper body), is that conceivably enough to make a low impact physical activity like guitar difficult for an average, healthy person?


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## efiltsohg (Dec 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> While I'm sure there are people who, for physical reasons, cannot play guitar, I highly doubt there is a meaningful divide based primarily on gender.
> 
> While women have on average 30% less skeletal muscle (upper body), is that conceivably enough to make a low impact physical activity like guitar difficult for an average, healthy person?



i was just making a half assed movie reference


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 7, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> i was just making a half assed movie reference




Gotcha. I haven't seen that movie since it was in theaters.


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## Metropolis (Dec 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> While women have on average 30% less skeletal muscle (upper body), is that conceivably enough to make a low impact physical activity like guitar difficult for an average, healthy person?



Probably not too much, but you can sometimes hear lack of strength in vibrato and picking technique along female players, generally they play so much differently. Couple of I've listened and watched recently; Lari Basilio, really delicate and classy sounding fusion style with nice phrasing and all that, but just lacking in vibrato. Same goes with Sarah Longfield, tapping for days but there is just no feel, something is just missing. What I'm trying to say that these players often choose that kind of playing style partly because of their physique.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 7, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Probably not too much, but you can sometimes hear lack of strength in vibrato and picking technique along female players, generally they play so much differently. Couple of I've listened and watched recently; Lari Basilio, really delicate and classy sounding fusion style with nice phrasing and all that, but just lacking in vibrato. Same goes with Sarah Longfield, tapping for days but there is just no feel, something is just missing. What I'm trying to say that these players often choose that kind of playing style partly because of their physique.



Eh, doesn't really track to me. 

There are plenty of players of all stripes that have mediocre vibrato, and plenty that simply don't engage vibrato the same way. 

It just sounds like you're reaching for a "scientific" reason to an issue that's purely emotional, whether that's your intent or not.

I'm not calling you sexist. I just don't think you have this right.


----------



## Vyn (Dec 7, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Probably not too much, but you can sometimes hear lack of strength in vibrato and picking technique along female players, generally they play so much differently. Couple of I've listened and watched recently; Lari Basilio, really delicate and classy sounding fusion style with nice phrasing and all that, but just lacking in vibrato. Same goes with Sarah Longfield, tapping for days but there is just no feel, something is just missing. What I'm trying to say that these players often choose that kind of playing style partly because of their physique.



I call bullshit on this. In standard tuning, I can only really bend/vibrato on 9s, maybe 10s on a good day, yet an ex girlfriend played 11s all-day everyday. Gender has fuck all to do with that.


----------



## bostjan (Dec 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, doesn't really track to me.
> 
> There are plenty of players of all stripes that have mediocre vibrato, and plenty that simply don't engage vibrato the same way.
> 
> ...



There have been a couple of youtube videos exploring this. If those are to be beleved as accurate, then this idea is plausibly correct. On the other hand, it might be audible differences in vibrato due to cultural reasons. But, at any rate, there is no data proving that female player's vibrato reaches as wide as the typical male's, and there is a ton of anecdotal evidence and the logical conclusions drawn from basical physiological data that such is the case. 

That's not to say that narrower vibrato is a negative thing, either. There are plenty of female guitarists who play perfectly.

TL;DR - he might not be right, but he's probably not wrong...


----------



## c7spheres (Dec 7, 2019)

prlgmnr said:


> fucking
> 
> 
> 
> "hand muscles"



It's what to do when feeling lonely.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 7, 2019)

bostjan said:


> There have been a couple of youtube videos



Yeah, I'm gonna have to stop you right there.


----------



## fantom (Dec 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It just sounds like you're reaching for a "scientific" reason to an issue that's purely emotional, whether that's your intent or not.
> 
> I'm not calling you sexist. I just don't think you have this right.



It is sexist. I'm pretty sure I would be fired or at least talkedto by HR if I spewed what was said at work.



bostjan said:


> But, at any rate, there is no data proving that female player's vibrato reaches as wide as the typical male's, and there is a ton of anecdotal evidence and the logical conclusions drawn from basical physiological data that such is the case.
> 
> TL;DR - he might not be right, but he's probably not wrong...



The lack of data proving something relatively specific does not disprove it. If you have any evidence to prove that women vibrato on average is less wide and you can prove it is due to physiological differences, please present it. Otherwise you are just pushing conspiracy


----------



## TedEH (Dec 7, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> it would be stupid to say that looks don't matter in her case, when it obviously does.


I stand by what I said. I didn't know her from that other band, and I have zero interest in her looks. That cover isn't presenting her as a sex object, even if you've personally decided that she's attractive.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Dec 7, 2019)

What happened to this thread


----------



## eggy in a bready (Dec 7, 2019)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> What happened to this thread


Someone said something stupid and people chose to engage it seriously


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 7, 2019)

Very rarely does talking about women on the internet end well.


----------



## Metropolis (Dec 8, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Very rarely does talking about women on the internet end well.



Nowadays it ends being offended. Meaning that there is no data about it doesn't mean that this phenomenon doesn't exist, because it's in the ears of a listener. Which may not again have too much to do with a players gender. Sometimes I just think why there is not just as good female players and why they generally don't have the same touch to an instrument.



Vyn said:


> I call bullshit on this. In standard tuning, I can only really bend/vibrato on 9s, maybe 10s on a good day, yet an ex girlfriend played 11s all-day everyday. Gender has fuck all to do with that.



That's one case... different styles, guitars etc. maybe? I wouldn't play on 11's in standard tuning and prefer 9's or 10's.

Troy Grady should do a scientific as possible video about playing mechanics between similar style players of different gender. But he would still end up called a sexist motherfucker 

I've seen videos about where people tried to guess players gender only by listening them.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 8, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Nowadays it ends being offended. Meaning that there is no data about it doesn't mean that this phenomenon doesn't exist, because it's in the ears of a listener. Which may not again have too much to do with a players gender. Sometimes I just think why there is not just as good female players and why they generally don't have the same touch to an instrument.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're the only one who has gotten offended enough to start name calling. 

Folks just think you're wrong. No need to project accusations that had not been made.


----------



## Metropolis (Dec 8, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're the only one who has gotten offended enough to start name calling.
> 
> Folks just think you're wrong. No need to project accusations that had not been made.



I read about couple of really passive aggressive comments before that. Something about men having bigger brains and times before modern science... At least Bostjan agreed to some degree (maybe I think), and have possibly thought about this too.


----------



## bostjan (Dec 8, 2019)

fantom said:


> It is sexist. I'm pretty sure I would be fired or at least talkedto by HR if I spewed what was said at work.
> 
> 
> 
> The lack of data proving something relatively specific does not disprove it. If you have any evidence to prove that women vibrato on average is less wide and you can prove it is due to physiological differences, please present it. Otherwise you are just pushing conspiracy



You are drastically overselling what I said.

I said that the only evidence going one way is either anecdotal or based on logical conclusions from other studies (therefore inferred) and the evidence going the other way is nothing, so you can't say this guy is wrong, based on evidence. Scant evidence tips the scale against no evidence.

And what valuation do we put on the width of someone's vibrato anyway? The entire base of the argument is meritless. If width of vibrato is a gauge for a musician's worth in some way, then Ethel Merman is the Greatest Singer of All Time. 

It's like trying to argue about whether a shiny new penny is worth more than an old dull one when pennies are virtually worthless either way.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Dec 8, 2019)

Cant believe I have started two threads in the last couple weeks that have descended in to how women/girls cant play the guitar as well as men! Dunno whether to laugh at the complete stupidity of it or feel down about how narrow minded this forum is at times

I have nothing to add on this strange left field deviation to this thread other than I am so happy for Nita that she has been recognized with a cover as she is a monster of a player and I agree completely with Max, Prigmnr and others comments on this men are "scientifically" better than women at guitar BS


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 8, 2019)

Louis Cypher said:


> Cant believe I have started two threads in the last couple weeks that have descended in to how women/girls cant play the guitar as well as men! Dunno whether to laugh at the complete stupidity of it or feel down about how narrow minded this forum is at times









Misogyny is unfortunately hardwired into the internet.


----------



## Metropolis (Dec 8, 2019)

Louis Cypher said:


> Cant believe I have started two threads in the last couple weeks that have descended in to how women/girls cant play the guitar as well as men! Dunno whether to laugh at the complete stupidity of it or feel down about how narrow minded this forum is at times
> 
> I have nothing to add on this strange left field deviation to this thread other than I am so happy for Nita that she has been recognized with a cover as she is a monster of a player and I agree completely with Max, Prigmnr and others comments on this men are "scientifically" better than women at guitar BS



Why it's wrong to say that, and we are talking about top minority level of guitar players here. Women are better singers in their field of doing with their high notes, and in some cases they just sound better. Is that un-equal because women do them scientifically better? It's not even being narrow minded, pretty much the opposite to think possibility why things are how they are. There is always a "why". Oh.. that stupid Fender thread was started by you too, I see... Calling someone sexist and misogynistic is just an easy way to out.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Dec 8, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Why it's wrong to say that, and we are talking about top minority level of guitar players here. Women are better singers in their field of doing with their high notes, and in some cases they just sound better. Is that un-equal because women do them scientifically better? It's not even being narrow minded, pretty much the opposite to think possibility why things are how they are. There is always a "why". Oh.. that stupid Fender thread was started by you too, I see... Calling someone sexist and misogynistic is just an easy way to out.



Seriously, are you actually listening to yourself? 
Tbh you are completely within your rights to convince yourself you are correct bout this and that you are in no way being sexist or misogynistic, I'm not gonna argue with you. Good luck to you.


----------



## fantom (Dec 8, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Why it's wrong to say that, and we are talking about top minority level of guitar players here. Women are better singers in their field of doing with their high notes, and in some cases they just sound better. Is that un-equal because women do them scientifically better? It's not even being narrow minded, pretty much the opposite to think possibility why things are how they are. There is always a "why". Oh.. that stupid Fender thread was started by you too, I see... Calling someone sexist and misogynistic is just an easy way to out.



With respect to physiology and finger dexterity, have you ever tried to play a violin, viola, or cello? It is considerably harder than guitar. Somehow, classical musicians seem to be pretty balanced gender-wise. I can't think of anyone assuming a female violinist or flautist is worse than a male when talking to orchestra musicians. I would throw out there that girls avoid guitar to avoid being sexualized and marginalized by the community.

As I said before, if you have concrete evidence that women cannot play guitar as well as men due to physiology, present it. Your singing / voice range analogy isn't evidence. That one is actually pretty common sense and supported. It doesn't make sense to say vocal chords have any relation to fingers.

To why is it bad to say? I know someone who has been fired for making similar comments. I took your stance at the time with my coworkers. The result, my manager said I needed to stop because several female coworkers found the conversations uncomfortable. So I talked to them and realized that I was being extremely sexist under the guise of thinking I was pushing for some open-minded middleground. Once you realize that the affect of your comments alienate people, you need to accept it is sexist, even if it was not your intention.


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## Louis Cypher (Dec 8, 2019)

Speaking generally, the main problem when someone is expressing such discriminatory opinions, in the case of this thread sexist and misogynistic views and they are being made in an apparently thought out, educated way claiming unqualified unproven scientific facts and quoting random unverified sources like a youtube video or a Facebook post that cant be quoted or referenced they have seen as proof they are right, others engage in an educated thought out way because they believe they are arguing on a level playing field which unfortunately just allows for the discrimination to continue as though it is a suitable side in the argument. When what should happen when someone raises such opinions is it should be called out for what it is and either ignored or treated with the complete contempt it deserves not as a valid side to an argument that should have been consigned to the distant past


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## Louis Cypher (Dec 8, 2019)

fantom said:


> To why is it bad to say? I know someone who has been fired for making similar comments. I took your stance at the time with my coworkers. The result, my manager said I needed to stop because several female coworkers found the conversations uncomfortable. So I talked to them and realized that I was being extremely sexist under the guise of thinking I was pushing for some open-minded middleground. Once you realize that the affect of your comments alienate people, you need to accept it is sexist, even if it was not your intention.



Sorry to double post but, this quote is brilliant. End of. No point in having a mind if you never change it. 

And if you still feel you arent being sexist or misogynistic after reading that post then do as Fantom did and be brave enough to discuss your opinions face to face with either a female guitarist or just another female and see what they say


----------



## c7spheres (Dec 8, 2019)

Louis Cypher said:


> Speaking generally, the main problem when someone is expressing such discriminatory opinions, in the case of this thread sexist and misogynistic views ....



Sincerely, I looked back in the thread and I'm not seeing it. Where are the sexist, misogynistic and disriminatory views and opinions?


----------



## Adieu (Dec 9, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> Sincerely, I looked back in the thread and I'm not seeing it. Where are the sexist, misogynistic and disriminatory views and opinions?



In this new world of justice and unity and acceptance, deviant opinions simply tend to.... vanish.

Quietly.

Presumably, without the deviant opinion holders' consent. Just poof.


And no, we don't want to be seen talking about this, lest we too.... poof.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2019)

Adieu said:


> In this new world of justice and unity and acceptance, deviant opinions simply tend to.... vanish.
> 
> Quietly.
> 
> ...



All posts are still up and in their entirety.


----------



## eggy in a bready (Dec 9, 2019)

Adieu said:


> In this new world of justice and unity and acceptance, deviant opinions simply tend to.... vanish.
> 
> Quietly.
> 
> ...


*Martyr complex* has entered the chat


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## Louis Cypher (Dec 9, 2019)

Anyone who thinks there is no sexism or misogyny in this utterly random "debate" (yet again) on how women are incapable of playing the guitar as well as men feel free to voice your reasons face to face to an actual woman and let us all know what they think of being told they are physiologically incapabale of playing as well as a man, ie small hands etc etc, and how they should stick to singing..... in the meantime is there any chance we can all get back to the original reason for this thread


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2019)

Is this issue even on shelves yet? Anyone have an e-sub to GW?

I used to subscribe to all the mags, but it's been several years.


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## Adieu (Dec 9, 2019)

Louis Cypher said:


> Anyone who thinks there is no sexism or misogyny in this utterly random "debate" (yet again) on how women are incapable of playing the guitar as well as men feel free to voice your reasons face to face to an actual woman and let us all know what they think of being told they are physiologically incapabale of playing as well as a man, ie small hands etc etc, and how they should stick to singing..... in the meantime is there any chance we can all get back to the original reason for this thread



OF COURSE women are unable to play the electric guitar

Bein barefoot and pregnant all the time = risk of electrocution & ergonomics issues galore

Like, DUH


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## TedEH (Dec 9, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is this issue even on shelves yet?


My immediate thought is "do people even read magazines anymore?"
How has the internet not completely killed that industry yet.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2019)

TedEH said:


> My immediate thought is "do people even read magazines anymore?"
> How has the internet not completely killed that industry yet.



Oh it has. I give it another decade before magazines are practically extinct. 

Which is why it's weird folks are going all goofy over this.


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## Metropolis (Dec 9, 2019)

Louis Cypher said:


> Anyone who thinks there is no sexism or misogyny in this utterly random "debate" (yet again) on how women are incapable of playing the guitar as well as men feel free to voice your reasons face to face to an actual woman and let us all know what they think of being told they are physiologically incapabale of playing as well as a man, ie small hands etc etc, and how they should stick to singing..... in the meantime is there any chance we can all get back to the original reason for this thread



So what's the real reason there, is it culture related? Why there is no female Yngwie, Vai or Satch? Or maybe some more modern guitar heroes like Tosin, Misha or Plini? Is it too manly thing to do, play in a rock... metal band? And no, Nita Strauss isn't one.


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## Adieu (Dec 9, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> So what's the real reason there, is it culture related? Why there is no female Yngwie, Vai or Satch? Or maybe some more modern guitar heroes like Tosin, Misha or Plini? Is it too manly thing to do, play in a rock... metal band? And no, Nita Strauss isn't one.



Japan usually has a few, BUT... they consistently tend to grow overproduced and end up repackaged into an ageing pop-idol-ish glam band circa album #4 or 5

Once they bust out the manicures, glitter, and lip gloss, the end is predictably nigh


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## Louis Cypher (Dec 9, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> So what's the real reason there, is it culture related? Why there is no female Yngwie, Vai or Satch? Or maybe some more modern guitar heroes like Tosin, Misha or Plini? Is it too manly thing to do, play in a rock... metal band? And no, Nita Strauss isn't one.



Ohh well when you put it like that then of course you're right, how stupid am I........?! Why is there no female Yngwie or Vai? what kind of argument is that? I'll bite tho..... Where are all the other male Yngwie's or Vai's? There arent any beacuse there is & can only ever be one Yngwie, one Vai, one Satch, one Nita Strauss, one Jennifer Batten, one Nili Brosh, one Bonnie Raitt, one Tina S, one Nancy Wilson, and one you and one me

TBH I am convinced you're just trolling on this for the sake of having an arugment..... I'm not gonna indulge you on this mate and carry on defending or trying to prove to you why women are equally capable of playing the guitar as well as men, because its so obvious why you're wrong. You wanna voice your opinion on indivdual guitarist male or female and why you think they arent good enough then no one will have an issue with you on that as thats your right, but as you are claiming half of the human race cannot do something as well as the other half because they are the wrong sex, you really need a little word with yourself and perhaps talk to the odd female every so often...... You wanna carry this on remember you brought this up and claimed it as fact on this thread and over the course of 3 or 4 pages serveral people have responded and asked you to clairfy and prove why your right with anything other than your own opinion and so far you have offered nothing other than you just keep stating your right and how you arent being sexist (sure sign you are being sexist if you have to keep saying your not being!) and then you troll somemore on those arguing against you and keep avoiding answering anyone.... so why don't you prove to us all why you're right and its not just you hating on women out of some sense of inadequacy at having to admit that a woman could be equal to or better than a man at playing the guitar? That would be pretty "manly" of you if you did...... Edit: Why not post a video up of your playing and one of any female player you want and point out all the area's where you are so much better because your a man?


----------



## stevexc (Dec 9, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Is this issue even on shelves yet? Anyone have an e-sub to GW?
> 
> I used to subscribe to all the mags, but it's been several years.



Saw it on the shelf the other day but didn't grab it (because I frankly don't give a shit). But I did take a peek at the digital preview on GW's site. There is no ranking whatsoever, just a list of 20 players.

TL;DR: Tremonti is dumb (or, more likely, misinformed by the UG article calling him number one); Nita Strauss shreds regardless of what's between her legs; vibrato is not hormone-dependant; @Metropolis is being a raging sexist (there's your name calling for you).


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## Louis Cypher (Dec 9, 2019)

stevexc said:


> Saw it on the shelf the other day but didn't grab it (because I frankly don't give a shit). But I did take a peek at the digital preview on GW's site. There is no ranking whatsoever, just a list of 20 players.
> 
> TL;DR: Tremonti is dumb (or, more likely, misinformed by the UG article calling him number one)



My OP was based off Tremonti Facebook post that UG were referencing. I wont get this edition in the UK till Jan some time so I had no idea beyond that UG article and his presumptous post on Facebook to name himself as #1 that it was actually 4 differnet covers and a list of 20 in no particular order


----------



## Drew (Dec 9, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I didn't know he is long before I got to this forum. They have the McCarty, so I figured Tremonti was just a model name too.


Ted McCarty was the President of Gibson Guitars from 1950-1966, and oversaw what was considered the "golden age" of the company. Paul Reed Smith kept seeing the guy's name on Gibson patents so made a point of getting in touch with him, and McCarty ended up being a consultant for PRS for a number of years. The McCarty, a more Gibson-spec guitar than is typical of PRS, was named in recognition of his contributions both at Gibson and at PRS. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_McCarty 

...not that anyone cares, because we're now talking about women in music.


----------



## StevenC (Dec 9, 2019)

Drew said:


> Ted McCarty was the President of Gibson Guitars from 1950-1966, and oversaw what was considered the "golden age" of the company. Paul Reed Smith kept seeing the guy's name on Gibson patents so made a point of getting in touch with him, and McCarty ended up being a consultant for PRS for a number of years. The McCarty, a more Gibson-spec guitar than is typical of PRS, was named in recognition of his contributions both at Gibson and at PRS.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_McCarty
> 
> ...not that anyone cares, because we're now talking about women in music.


I know all that now, but when first finding PRS all the guitar names seemed pretty random and basically identical. Like Ibanez names but with words instead of letters and numbers.


----------



## mastapimp (Dec 9, 2019)

stevexc said:


> Saw it on the shelf the other day but didn't grab it (because I frankly don't give a shit). But I did take a peek at the digital preview on GW's site. There is no ranking whatsoever, just a list of 20 players.



I think they are ranked by number. Mateus Asato posted a scan of the page he appears on. He's ranked #9, ahead of (10) John Mayer, (11) Jason Richardson, (12) St. Vincent, (13) Synyster Gates.


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## Metropolis (Dec 9, 2019)

This thread is hilarious... one small argument can be turned into some stupid labels "place label here" by some raging feminist. Men do lots of things at top level better than women, and women do some things also better. Best these kind of people can do is take a sentence and turn it into completely something else. And critizing something, someone etc. doesn't have to never mean that who does criticizm should do it someway better.


----------



## Descent (Dec 9, 2019)

Ouch...he's not a bad player but that just tells you how bad the general public is when it comes to good musicians and songwriters, they basically could've voted Dave Grohl with almost the same success...or wait, maybe he was in the running?


----------



## gunshow86de (Dec 9, 2019)

Can we all just come together and make fun of Synnester Gates and that write up?


----------



## StevenC (Dec 9, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> This thread is hilarious... one small argument can be turned into some stupid labels "place label here" by some raging feminist. Men do lots of things at top level better than women, and women do some things also better. Best these kind of people can do is take a sentence and turn it into completely something else. And critizing something, someone etc. doesn't have to never mean that who does criticizm should do it someway better.


No one is being a raging feminist. People are asking why, physiologically, the best violinists and pianists in the world can be women but not guitarists. And you're ducking the question.


----------



## bostjan (Dec 9, 2019)

StevenC said:


> No one is being a raging feminist. People are asking why, physiologically, the best violinists and pianists in the world can be women but not guitarists. And you're ducking the question.



I agree that greatness is not determined by gender, but your claim that "the best violinists and pianists in the world can be women," if you mean that the most acclaimed violinists and pianists are just as likely to be female as male, isn't universally agreed. For example, this list of greatest violinists has only one female on it. If you have a list that has 50% females on it, though, feel free to make that point. Same goes for piano.

Again, not saying you are wrong, just, from a strength-of-argument perspective, maybe you aren't really doing your own argument any more good than harm. Generally speaking, music schools are about 2 to 1 male to female, so women just don't choose music as a career as often as men do. There might be a few reasons why. Maybe it's systematic or institutional, or maybe there really are biological gender biases.


----------



## Metropolis (Dec 9, 2019)

bostjan said:


> I agree that greatness is not determined by gender, but your claim that "the best violinists and pianists in the world can be women," if you mean that the most acclaimed violinists and pianists are just as likely to be female as male, isn't universally agreed. For example, this list of greatest violinists has only one female on it. If you have a list that has 50% females on it, though, feel free to make that point. Same goes for piano.
> 
> Again, not saying you are wrong, just, from a strength-of-argument perspective, maybe you aren't really doing your own argument any more good than harm. Generally speaking, music schools are about 2 to 1 male to female, so women just don't choose music as a career as often as men do. There might be a few reasons why. Maybe it's systematic or institutional, or maybe there really are biological gender biases.



What kind of sexist lists are those... Went to look couple of lists about singers, other was rock, pop, soul and so on, and the other classical/opera singers. Both lists had roughly 50/50 male and female.


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## StevenC (Dec 9, 2019)

bostjan said:


> I agree that greatness is not determined by gender, but your claim that "the best violinists and pianists in the world can be women," if you mean that the most acclaimed violinists and pianists are just as likely to be female as male, isn't universally agreed. For example, this list of greatest violinists has only one female on it. If you have a list that has 50% females on it, though, feel free to make that point. Same goes for piano.
> 
> Again, not saying you are wrong, just, from a strength-of-argument perspective, maybe you aren't really doing your own argument any more good than harm. Generally speaking, music schools are about 2 to 1 male to female, so women just don't choose music as a career as often as men do. There might be a few reasons why. Maybe it's systematic or institutional, or maybe there really are biological gender biases.


Don't worry, your lists of mostly dead white dudes has me convinced that there are no good pianists or violinists under 70.


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## Vyn (Dec 9, 2019)

bostjan said:


> or maybe there really are biological gender biases.



The problem is that this has been debunked, debunked, and debunked over and over again yet people still try to discuss this point. There is no evidence that's actually statistically significant in even the loosest of definitions that says women are physiologically/biologically disadvantaged when it comes to playing musical instruments. None. The reason why there are more male musicians than female historically is women weren't allowed to as they were seen as inferior to men and similply weren't allowed to takeup a "man's job.' This culture/attitude/bias has taken fucking centuries to stamp out and it's because people keep trying to rationalise in whatever insane way that somehow men make better musicians. You can see data trending from year to year the number of women musicians increasing as attitudes and cultures change which is a good thing.

I'm not going to comment anymore unless someone has an intelligent rebuttal because I'm THIS close to going personal and I don't feel like @MaxOfMetal or @Randy banning me at the moment for doing so.


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## bostjan (Dec 9, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Don't worry, your lists of mostly dead white dudes has me convinced that there are no good pianists or violinists under 70.


Not my lists, but people under 70 are better represented on those lists than women.

Obviously people are so enraged by the topic that they all want to say something about it, whether it makes sense or not.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2019)

bostjan said:


> Not my lists, but people under 70 are better represented on those lists than women.
> 
> Obviously people are so enraged by the topic that they all want to say something about it, whether it makes sense or not.



Practically all of them came to prominence at a time when women were mostly outright excluded or socially engineered away from being professional orchestral musicians. 

That's like listing the best restaurants in Poland in 1946 and not understanding why few were kosher.


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## bostjan (Dec 9, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Practically all of them came to prominence at a time when women were mostly outright excluded or socially engineered away from being professional orchestral musicians.
> 
> That's like listing the best restaurants in Poland in 1946 and not understanding why few were kosher.


The claim was that the greatest violinists and pianists are women. I merely stated that's not a universal opinion and posted direct evidence (and invited contrary evidence). I never said why.


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## efiltsohg (Dec 9, 2019)

the weird sexism of a bunch of male nerds thinking they need to write paragraphs and paragraphs defending, er, virtuoso female violinists

end result of your entire sexual development being summed up by the MCU


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 9, 2019)

Eh. Nevermind.


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