# Christians vs Atheists. whats the deal?



## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Alright, before you say anything I'm not going to tell you to believe in God or you will go to Hell for an eternity. You are allowed to believe in what ever you want. But if you are a Christian believing in God to get away from Hell, you are a Christian for the wrong reason. so lets start.
no bullshit please, i want to have a serious conversation, and still be friends because i wont see you any differently no matter your religion, or no religion.

So, why is that atheists go around telling people that christians try to force our religion on you yet very few christians do that and every (non) religion does that? I understand that christians used to force natives to convert and some are still trying to convert other today, but now the atheists are having advertisements on public buses saying that there is no God. If atheists dont like christians trying to convert others, why are they putting up advertisements saying there is no God?

remember no bullshit this is supposed to be serious.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

Christians had posters on buses in England before the Atheists.

EDIT: And it also irritates us when a religious person pulls a freaker when they meet an Atheist and starts asking questions along the lines of "Why do you hate god?"


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## heavy7-665 (Feb 16, 2009)

it just seems like some massive gang war lately. both sides attacking each other saying the other started it.

But here is my standing. I believe in something out there but i hate religion.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

I can understand why Christians had posters up first because it has been around for 2k years. The influence is greater than that of Atheists. And atheists get pissed when we put posters up, why would you fight fire with fire?


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> I can understand why Christians had posters up first because it has been around for 2k years. The influence is greater than that of Atheists. And atheists get pissed when we put posters up, why would you fight fire with fire?



So what if they've been around for two thousand years? They still have the same standing as far as empirical evidence goes as any other belief. Greek Mythology or the Tooth Fairy included. If someone is going to invade my daily life and tell me that I'm going to hell for not joining their little fan club then why the hell shouldn't individuals who feel the same as me put up posters with a far more calm and rational message?


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## Variant (Feb 16, 2009)

First of all, Atheism is not a 'group' or a 'side', it is merely a philosophical viewpoint... the 'lack' of theistic ideas. It's not like we meet for bread an wine on Sundays.  

Second, I think the Christians are way, way, way, way, way ahead on the buying up billboard space and TV advertising time. You may not get it so much over in Europe... but we certainly do over here. I belive the hoopla is all about the whole '_*We can dish it out but can't take it*_' mentality on Christians when it comes to communicating belief systems.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 16, 2009)

I can see this going downhill very fast


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> So what if they've been around for two thousand years? They still have the same standing as far as empirical evidence goes as any other belief. Greek Mythology or the Tooth Fairy included. If someone is going to invade my daily life and tell me that I'm going to hell for not joining their little fan club then why the hell shouldn't individuals who feel the same as me put up posters with a far more calm and rational message?


If a christian tells you taht you will go to hell for not wanting to be a christian then that person doesnt know what it means to be a christian.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> If a christian tells you taht you will go to hell for not wanting to be a christian then that person doesnt know what it means to be a christian.



That doesn't really solve the problem, all the same...

They make a stupid statement and the other party involved makes a rational response. 



Metal Ken said:


> I can see this going downhill very fast


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## heavy7-665 (Feb 16, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> I can see this going downhill very fast



yeah i see it too. lets cool down a bit guys. this needs to be a serious adult discussion.


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## stuh84 (Feb 16, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> That doesn't really solve the problem, all the same...
> 
> They make a stupid statement and the other party involved makes a rational response.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

heavy7-665 said:


> yeah i see it too. lets cool down a bit guys. this needs to be a serious adult discussion.



I think the thread in essence is borked.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Variant said:


> First of all, Atheism is not a 'group' or a 'side', it is merely a philosophical viewpoint... the 'lack' of theistic ideas. It's not like we meet for bread an wine on Sundays.
> 
> Second, I think the Christians are way, way, way, way, way ahead on the buying up billboard space and TV advertising time. You may not get it so much over in Europe... but we certainly do over here. I belive the hoopla is all about the whole '_*We can dish it out but can't take it*_' mentality on Christians when it comes to communicating belief systems.


Well, it just seems like a war. I get verbally attacked all of the time for being a christian, im a christian and i love the band dissection. What many christians think is that everyone should believe in one thing, most of it is propaganda but most people fail to see that not all christians are like that.


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## stuh84 (Feb 16, 2009)

I've had enough Christians try and turn me to their side. I don't see many atheists knocking on my door about wanting to let science in my life, put it that way.


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## caughtinamosh (Feb 16, 2009)

Oh thank God (no, that God-awful (Fuck, I can't stop it ) pun was not intended) FlyingBanana is banned... Jeff and all the others would tear him a new one on this thread .


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

idk who that is


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## caughtinamosh (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> idk who that is



Just some deluded Christian that told all SS.org athiests that they were doomed to spent eternity in sulphur and hellfire .


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

He is a moron.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

caughtinamosh said:


> Just some deluded Christian that told all SS.org athiests that they were doomed to spent eternity in sulphur and hellfire .



Fun times...


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Fun times...



That guy should acually read the bible for himself rather than listening to other peoples interpretations of it.


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## Koshchei (Feb 16, 2009)

First of all:

1) Christians *do* force their religion on non-believers. You may not, and I thank you for it, but Christianity has a very long history of proselytizing. This has manifested itself in the extermination and slavery of less advanced civilizations, torture and execution of "heretics" (people who aren't the right sort of Christian), and the widespread telling of lies to children in order to "get them early". I have been proselytized at may times, and it's grossly offensive to be on the receiving end of.

2) Interference of Christianity in secular affairs. The most modern example of this has been George Bush's regime in the United States, where he had political appointees actively tamper with scientific discovery and education in areas that conflicted with party ideology - the teaching of evolution in school, being most notable. This pisses American atheists off because it violates the constitution, and scares the crap out of all atheists everywhere, because it represents the intellectual backslide of the most powerful nation of the world back into ignorance and intolerance.

3) We're all technically atheists. For instance, we're both atheists of Osiris, Allah, etc. Where you and I are different though, is that I take my disbelief one God farther...

4) The burden of whether or not God exists does not lie with atheists: it lies with Christians. As the old saying goes, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", and the hypothesis that an old man lives up in the sky (also inside all of our hearts) and watches us individually, waiting for us to do one of ten things that he really can't stand, so he can cast us into a burning lake for all eternity when we die (but he still loves us), is up to you guys to provide some sort of evidence in support of. So far, there is none.

Otherwise, there's really no discussion or debate.

Here's a paradox to entertain you in the meantime: If God is all powerful and all-knowing, is he capable of creating a prison for himself that he can't escape from?

ninjaedit: Which version of the Bible do you mean? You do know that there are many versions, right?


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## heavy7-665 (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> That guy should acually read the bible for himself rather than listening to other peoples interpretations of it.



maybe he was falwell's ghost.


And for the record i know not all christians act the same way.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> First of all:
> 
> 1) Christians *do* force their religion on non-believers. You may not, and I thank you for it, but Christianity has a very long history of proselytizing. This has manifested itself in the extermination and slavery of less advanced civilizations, torture and execution of "heretics" (people who aren't the right sort of Christian), and the widespread telling of lies to children in order to "get them early". I have been proselytized at may times, and it's grossly offensive to be on the receiving end of.
> 
> ...



1) its like saying all Germans are nazis, some might still be but most aren't.

Yes i know there are many versions but they dont differ that much from each other. and cant rep you i gave out too much rep in past 24 hours.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 16, 2009)

Bertrand Russell: Has Religion Made Useful Contributions to Civilization?

Bertrand Russell: Why I Am Not A Christian


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## Koshchei (Feb 16, 2009)

What about my other 3 points? Please don't forget about them.

The different versions of the Bible are different enough that they had different brands of Christian burning and torturing and killing each other for several hundred years...


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## mustang-monk (Feb 16, 2009)

There was a random converter guy at the bus stop a few week ago. He was walking towards me i narrowed my eyes and gave him a look so he went to this chinese guy instead. 

After about 2 seconds it was clear that this guy spoke very very little english, but the guy kept on going. It went sort of like this.

BB: Hello, do you mind if a talk to you about something.
CG: :does a little nod:
BB: have you forged a personal relationship with the lord
CG: :nods again:
ETC ETC ETC

he just kept going on and on to this poor guy that clearly didnt understand him.
I just couldnt help laughing.

I dont like the way that religious groups can say things about how other people lead their lives but when people say bad things about religion theres soome kind of discrimination going on. 

Nobody complianed about all the shitty christian adverts on busses but as soon as someone put up something anti-christian then people are offended. Furthermore the atheist bus adverts actually sent out a positive message.


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## heavy7-665 (Feb 16, 2009)

In my older life(16-present) i went to church once (for my grandma because she asked me to) and left because some missionaries where spewing some BS along the lines of "In 90&#37; of countries in asia or africa it is illegal to be christian and you will be arrested and executed"


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> First of all:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





2) he is a christian presdient, He probually did it because people didnt like him as it is and wanted them to remember him for something "good in his mind"

3)Technically yes, but I am no atheist to God.

4)Yes, i do wonder, what happens when i die, if there is no God? but i faith there is. But it is a metaphor that God lives in the sky.


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## Koshchei (Feb 16, 2009)

They had this thing called the "Jesus Bus" in the town where I grew up. They would literally abduct drunken people from clubs into their bus and force them to listen to their ridiculous claims about having met with Jesus, having survived death, etc.

A group of friends (philosophical Satanists - basically atheists with scary costumes) and I were abducted by them several years ago. Much hilarity ensued.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> They had this thing called the "Jesus Bus" in the town where I grew up. They would literally abduct drunken people from clubs into their bus and force them to listen to their ridiculous claims about having met with Jesus, having survived death, etc.
> 
> A group of friends (philosophical Satanists - basically atheists with scary costumes) and I were abducted by them several years ago. Much hilarity ensued.



What doesnt make sense to me, is that satanists(depending on what type you are) say that God doesnt exist, yet they listen to satan.


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## vampiregenocide (Feb 16, 2009)

The vast majority of Christians are nice people who don't force their religion on others. However, a lot of people high up in the church do believe Chistianity to be the one true religion and hence teach this to their followers. This is what I personally believe the reason for this hatred towards the Christians ideals is. The face of it seems to be that the Church is run more liek a business, with agressive expansion in mind. They want more followers, just like the ol' days.

You don't see Athiests forcing their beliefs on people because they have no beliefs to force. Its like me telling everyone they shouldn't eat marmite. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean you shouldn't. In the same conext, I couldn't force you to eat it if you didn't like it. 

I have Christian family members who barely mention their beliefs, and I don't tell them about mine in general either. However, I have met some very hardcore religious peeps who believe God has sent them to create this pure world and that everyone must be converted to save their souls etc etc etc. To me, those people are like passive-agressive terrorists. I'm not going to go to hell because I don't believe in Jesus. Are you going to hell because you don't beleive in Allah etc? 

/rant


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## Harry (Feb 16, 2009)

vampiregenocide said:


> The vast majority of Christians are nice people who don't force their religion on others. However, a lot of people high up in the church do believe Chistianity to be the one true religion and hence teach this to their followers. This is what I personally believe the reason for this hatred towards the Christians ideals is. The face of it seems to be that the Church is run more liek a business, with agressive expansion in mind. They want more followers, just like the ol' days.
> 
> You don't see Athiests forcing their beliefs on people because they have no beliefs to force. Its like me telling everyone they shouldn't eat marmite. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean you shouldn't. In the same conext, I couldn't force you to eat it if you didn't like it.
> 
> ...



Very much agreed
I too find a lot of Christians I know couldn't give a flying fuck I'm an atheist, they accept it and move on and I'm the same to them.


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## mustang-monk (Feb 16, 2009)

some of my christian friends were bothering a group of us to go to this convert evening so for a laugh some of us went, and ive got to say that it was the gayest thing ive ever witnessed it was for 17-20 yos but it was like they had aimed it at 5yo kids there was a kids film (i think it was robots) and some christian rock, and everyone got a goody bag, with a chocolate bar and a book of psalms. when the christian rock came on the christians were all crazy jumping about one guy had his arms in the air crying.

I also played at the same church for some charity thing and nearly accidentally caused an electrical fire.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> some of my christian friends were bothering a group of us to go to this convert evening so for a laugh some of us went, and ive got to say that it was the gayest thing ive ever witnessed it was for 17-20 yos but it was like they had aimed it at 5yo kids there was a kids film (i think it was robots) and some christian rock, and everyone got a goody bag, with a chocolate bar and a book of psalms. when the christian rock came on the christians were all crazy jumping about one guy had his arms in the air crying.


i think its ridiculous when people do that at christian rock concerts.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> What doesnt make sense to me, is that satanists(depending on what type you are) say that God doesnt exist, yet they listen to satan.



They dont believe in satan, either.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> They dont believe in satan, either.


then why are they satanists?


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## heavy7-665 (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> then why are they satanists?



its just a term really. meant to state an oppossing point of view of christianity


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## vampiregenocide (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> then why are they satanists?



They don't believe in Satan so much as they worship him directly, but they follow the idea of induldgence over abstinece, condoning revenge etc.

Basically doing what you want instead of following a bunch of rules.


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## Koshchei (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> What doesnt make sense to me, is that satanists(depending on what type you are) say that God doesnt exist, yet they listen to satan.



Please don't confuse philosophical Satanism with theistic Satanism - they're different animals entirely:

Theistic Satanists literally believe in the devil and worship him. They're silly extremists, in the same way that literalist Christians are (who believe that the Bible is entirely true, and in no way metaphorical). You could argue that theistic Satanism is a right-hand path religion, as it emphasizes the spiritual over the human.

Philosophical Satanists are basically materialistic individualists who have a sentimental affection for the romantic imagery of the devil as a tragic hero in literature - they don't believe particularly in the super-natural though. They're more interested in personal growth and success in whatever interests or matters to them. Philosophical Satanism is a strictly left-hand path religion.

I am neither of these, and can only give my interpretations based on what I've experienced and read (for anybody out there who is a member and about to jump on me for getting it wrong  ).


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## Tiger (Feb 16, 2009)

Last I checked we atheists are greatly outnumbered here in America, surely the numbers are the same over there?

Honestly I let christianity and all of the other bat-shit insane religions fly because I know these people and despite their beliefs they manage to have common sense over everything else. But sometimes I DO get so fed up with the insanity that it feels good to crucify a believer with all my pagan buddies in cloaks.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

vampiregenocide said:


> They don't believe in Satan so much as they worship him directly, but they follow the idea of induldgence over abstinece, condoning revenge etc.
> 
> Basically doing what you want instead of following a bunch of rules.


i dont know any thing about what satanists do, but dont they have their own set of rules?


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## mustang-monk (Feb 16, 2009)

Theres theistic satanism and atheistic satanism, some take satan symbolically some take him literally.

Id say metaphorically satan represents doing things for yourself and making yourself better, God represents servitude.

Im not satanist, atheist, christian, id say im barely even agnostic, id say im more apathetic to the idea of even contemplating whether theres a god or not.

Its not that i dont really know either way i dont care either way.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> Theres theistic satanism and atheistic satanism, some take satan symbolically some take him literally.


lol i was typing when he posted it.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Tiger said:


> Last I checked we atheists are greatly outnumbered here in America, surely the numbers are the same over there?
> 
> Honestly I let christianity and all of the other bat-shit insane religions fly because I know these people and despite their beliefs they manage to have common sense over everything else. But sometimes I DO get so fed up with the insanity that it feels good to crucify a believer with all my pagan buddies in cloaks.



hey buddy, this is a serious thread.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Feb 16, 2009)

Chris Rock > Christian Rock 

Ok seriously now. I'm a Christian, but I'm not the kind who would impose my beliefs to others in suich a way. You can talk to me about it and I'll tell you what I believe. I'll still get along with you and the best thing I can do for you is drive you home after a night on the town.  I don't care what you believe in, I'll give everyone here a hug.


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## cosmicamnesia (Feb 16, 2009)

im with with mustang-monk


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## mustang-monk (Feb 16, 2009)

Even if god is real an ultimate unaccountalbe power strikes me as a really bad thing bad thing, like a dictator. And im guessing he beats Stalin, Hitler and Mao hands down.


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## vampiregenocide (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> i dont know any thing about what satanists do, but dont they have their own set of rules?



Their rules are that there are no rules 

Sounds weird but thats essentially it. They are all for 'do whatever makes you feel better'. There are 'commandments' but these are just things like 'if a man provokes you, destroy him'. Thats a real one btw.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> Even if god is real an ultimate unaccountalbe power strikes me as a really bad thing bad thing, like a dictator. And im guessing he beats Stalin, Hitler and Mao hands down.



He's murdered and tortured more people than any of them could have got their hands on.


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## Koshchei (Feb 16, 2009)

cosmicamnesia said:


> no matter what...there will always be radicalists on both sides



I'm not sure that you've given the idea much thought - atheism is, by the very nature of what it is (and isn't), not possible to get frothy-mouthed over.

No smart atheist will say that there is definitively no God, because to do so, would indicate absolute conclusive certainty. And for that, they'd require proof.

Instead, we take the attitude that there may be a God, just as there may not be a God. However, the shading of probability is not equal - it's not 50/50. There is no tangible or irrefutable evidence whatsoever to support the assertion that there is a God (that can't be better explained by a natural process that we now understand), therefore, based on the evidence that's in, we argue that it's highly unlikely that there is a God.


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## Anthony (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> That guy should acually read the bible for himself rather than listening to other peoples interpretations of it.



No, according to the Bible, atheists will burn in hell. 

The fact that I've read the Bible is why I became an atheist. It's such a hateful book.


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## mustang-monk (Feb 16, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> No smart atheist will say that there is definitively no God.



thats exactly what atheism is the belief that there is no god. if you say there is a chance there is a god then its agnostic.


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## Anthony (Feb 16, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> No smart atheist will say that there is definitively no God, because to do so, would indicate absolute conclusive certainty. And for that, they'd require proof.



No smart atheist will ever say that there definitely isn't an invisible, man eating, flying elephant in the sky.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

Anthony said:


> No smart atheist will ever say that there definitely isn't an invisible, man eating, flying elephant in the sky.



wow, way to be serious.


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## stuh84 (Feb 16, 2009)

Anthony said:


> No smart atheist will ever say that there definitely isn't an invisible, man eating, flying elephant in the sky.



I think i've just found my new religion right there.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> wow, way to be serious.



He is being serious.

Why wouldn't he be?


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## Anthony (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> wow, way to be serious.


I'm completely serious.
You don't need proof to not believe in something that has no proof of its existence at all.


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 16, 2009)

you could have said that instead of "invisible, man eating, flying elephant in the sky."


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## Anthony (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> you could have said that instead of "invisible, man eating, flying elephant in the sky."



Or you could have picked up on sarcasm. Relax.


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## mustang-monk (Feb 16, 2009)

the genuine belief that there is an invisible man eating, flying elephant in the sky is just as valid as christianity.

And yay the elephant gorged on human flesh and he saw that it was delicious and he wanted MMMOOOOAAAAAARRRR!!!!


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## Bobby (Feb 16, 2009)

Anthony said:


> I'm completely serious.
> You don't need proof to not believe in something that has no proof of its existence at all.



+1



Sucks living in the bible belt.


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## Anthony (Feb 16, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> the genuine belief that there is an invisible man eating, flying elephant in the sky is just as valid as christianity.



Exactly. Both have an equal amount of physical proof. None.


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## Nick (Feb 16, 2009)

any atheists you see getting properly worked up at christians are generally just really angry at the lack of rational thought and logic employed by christianity.

eg 'God exists because he cannot not exist, we are all here arent we'

anyway i dare say my thoughts on the matter are patently obvious.


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## RenegadeDave (Feb 16, 2009)

My observation is: why does either side really give a shit what the other thinks? I realize that the Bible essentially commands Christians to spread the gospel, but at the same time, Athiests jump at any opportunity to attempt to destroy any sort of faith in a lot of cases. Usually the most outspoken/ardent athiests are usually the ones that lack the intellectual horsepower to REALLY butt heads with your average Christian apologist. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm largely agnostic myself and extraordinarily non religious, but I react just as negatively if a Christian attempts to discuss my eternal soul and attempt miserably to relate to me on a personal level since their faith makes them largely irrelevant in any secular setting, as when a couple smug atheists regurgitate whatever conversation they had over coffee with their smug atheist friends at the smallest invitation to discuss faith, or poopoo when someone acts in observance of their faith. You all end up on my "knuckle sandwich" list. I dislike the expansionist side of Christianity and their threshhold for intolerance, but I dislike how damn smug a lot of athiests encounter are and how they are every bit as intolerant of anything that may challenge their (non)belief structure. 

And while I'm at it, devout Muslims piss me off even more than devout Christians because their faith makes them even more socially irrelevant and intollerant of contradictory ideologies. I swear that L. Ron Hubbard just took a page out of Muhammads book when he founded Scientology. 

I will say the groups of people that have never pissed me off are Sikhs and Jews. 

Ultimately, I don't think I'll ever be able to take the leap of faith necessary to overcome the fallability of man to interpret the divine without incorporating his selfish desires/motives into the text. 

Southpark addresses all of these issues most appropriately, both the smugness of atheists, the douchebaggery of christians/muslims/jews.

And seriously, I don't think I can talk about Islam. The Bible can be real tough to read with a grain of salt, but the Koran is REALLY hard to read, with a big fucking pile of salt.


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## Anthony (Feb 16, 2009)

RenegadeDave said:


> My observation is: why does either side really give a shit what the other thinks? I realize that the Bible essentially commands Christians to spread the gospel, but at the same time, Athiests jump at any opportunity to attempt to destroy any sort of faith in a lot of cases. Usually the most outspoken/ardent athiests are usually the ones that lack the intellectual horsepower to REALLY butt heads with your average Christian apologist.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I'm largely agnostic myself and extraordinarily non religious, but I react just as negatively if a Christian attempts to discuss my eternal soul and attempt miserably to relate to me on a personal level since their faith makes them largely irrelevant in any secular setting, as when a couple smug atheists regurgitate whatever conversation they had over coffee with their smug atheist friends at the smallest invitation to discuss faith, or poopoo when someone acts in observance of their faith. You all end up on my "knuckle sandwich" list. I dislike the expansionist side of Christianity and their threshhold for intolerance, but I dislike how damn smug a lot of athiests encounter are and how they are every bit as intolerant of anything that may challenge their (non)belief structure.
> 
> ...




As an atheist, I give a shit because religion, and religious limitations hinder human achievement and thought. Nothing positive in this world needs religion to be attained.

I also give a shit because religion affects me. It affects the world we live in, from politics to social situations. Just because I'm an atheist, it doesn't make my exempt from this.

As verbose as your post is, I see nothing but generalizations, about what atheists "usually do", or what "most atheists" say. If you don't understand why one thinks a certain way, how can you assume you know how "most" of them act?


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## Xaios (Feb 16, 2009)

I guess I'll chime in.

I'm a Christian. It's how I was raised, and I've had enough 'faith-affirming' (for lack of a better term) experiences to feel that what I believe is the truth. That is not to say I have moments of doubt. I believe myself to be a reasonable and intelligent person, and at first glance, when you try and rationalize faith against the material world, there are some things that are hard to explain away. But then I reflect on some of the things I've seen and experienced and I know that there's no way that this is happening on its own. Someone is pulling the strings.

One thing that I believe is important to remember is that Christianity in its truest form is not about proving your faith to the world, or forcing people to see the path. Real Christianity is about a personal relationship with Christ, a complete surrender to his will (which, unlike what some of the more radical sects of Christianity will tell you, is not about plastering messages of damnation on the sides of buses). When you really, truly give it all to God, he can reform you from the inside out. You will find you adhere to the tenets of the word of God without even trying. People who speak a message of hatred are not true followers of Christ because the ultimate gift of Christ is love (which translates into the gift of eternal life, if you connect the dots), and yet they offer none themselves.

I know quite well that reading this, most of you will say "he is a hypocrite for saying these things and not truly living them." And you're right. I am a work in progress. But God willing, he will open my eyes to my failures and help me rectify them.

The reason I don't try to rationalize the metaphysical aspects God is that there's no way I can do that. God is not a part of his creation, and can't be bound by its terms. The only way I can represent God is through love, and by showing my faith through my acts.

I know what I've said probably has plenty of holes in it. Please feel free to point them out, and I'll do my best to answer, and if I can't, don't be surprised.


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## Dusty201087 (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> So, why is that atheists go around telling people that christians try to force our religion on you yet very few christians do that and every (non) religion does that? I understand that christians used to force natives to convert and some are still trying to convert other today, but now the atheists are having advertisements on public buses saying that there is no God. If atheists dont like christians trying to convert others, why are they putting up advertisements saying there is no God?
> 
> remember no bullshit this is supposed to be serious.



Ok, I'm in no way trying to flame you, but I can safely say I've never met one atheist who tried to force their beliefs on to me, yet I come into contact with Christians who give me flak almost everyday. And Christians were the first to run bus ads. I agree the whole thing's gone way too far and I think it's ridiculous, this is coming from someone who isn't religious.

Anyways, I wouldn't come out and say that all atheists are trying to convert people. As with most beliefs, there are a few dick heads who preach to people, while their are a lot of people who will just say, "Yep, I do (not) believe in god" then the situation's over.


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## RenegadeDave (Feb 16, 2009)

Anthony said:


> As an atheist, I give a shit because religion, and religious limitations hinder human achievement and thought. Nothing positive in this world needs religion to be attained.
> 
> I also give a shit because religion affects me. It affects the world we live in, from politics to social situations. Just because I'm an atheist, it doesn't make my exempt from this.
> 
> As verbose as your post is, I see nothing but generalizations, about what atheists "usually do", or what "most atheists" say. If you don't understand why one thinks a certain way, how can you assume you know how "most" of them act?



So you're so insecure in your belief structure that you cannot allow other ideologies to coexist, as it were? Or are you simply so egotistical to think affect some sort of modern renaissance through your personal crusade against anything believed to be divinely inspired? It seems that your very outlook on the situation has become a perfect mirror for primitive expansionist Christianity oppressing ideologies/theologies that are different from your own. 

You accuse me of generalizing about what some people sometimes do, yet you are guilty of assuming that all members of a general group will always behave in a given way. My observations are obviously my own and accrued through my time on earth interacting with folks, you'll have to forgive me that I haven't had a chance to glean insight from my limited interactions with YOU personally and applying them to my musings on the religious debate at large. I still stand behind my prior post because you've done nothing but illustrate it. You're insecure in your ideology and are egocentric to the point that you think that nothing good can be attained as a result of an ideology/theology that differs from your own. Case and point: I'd love for your to air your grievances on Buddhism and how it has afflicted humanity with it's hideous recognizing of an Awakened One to lead it's to enthralled myrmidons to commit atrocities such as leading altruistic lives fraught with ethical behavior and devotion. You're right, that's a blight on humanity and needs to become nothing more than a footnote in a history text. Or the next time some person comes to your aid in a situation as small as letting you borrow their cell phone to make a call when your phone is dead and you desperately need to make a call. It could just be that person being good natured and friendly, or they could be following whatever religious doctrine they prescribe to but won't flaunt it in your face. 

The reality that you're letting elude you is that people are the reason bad things happen in the world. An atheist is absolutely as capable of acting out of selfishness, envy, hypocrisy, or even being generally evil as any man who ever has committed harrowing acts in the name of an unseen deity. 

If history has taught us anything it's that if your repress a body of peoples for their beliefs, the group of people will typically rise against you, usually violently. We have laws now to keep the rational ones safe from the irrational ones and secular governments.


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## Naren (Feb 16, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> Even if god is real an ultimate unaccountalbe power strikes me as a really bad thing bad thing, like a dictator. And im guessing he beats Stalin, Hitler and Mao hands down.



This relates to the question posed by the original poster. But EVEN here in Japan, I get woken up on weekend mornings by door-to-door Christians and Mormons (about half-and-half). I've never felt like saying anything negative to them because, even though they woke me up early in the morning and I don't believe in what they do, they seemed to have good intentions. At first I would just say "Oh, okay," take their pamphlet and throw it away, but there have been a few times when I did get kind of irritated and someone was kind of confronting me with the "Why don't you believe in God!?" or "Why do you hate God?", so I was like "Is it okay to ask you a question?" and they said "Yes." I asked, "Why do you want to believe in a God who is sending 99.9&#37; of your countrymen to Hell simply for not believing him? That's worse than anything Hitler every did. If that's the God you serve, then he is no God of love. Creating living beings simply for them to worship you, but not even telling them that you even exist and that the consequence for not worshipping you is an eternity of pain and suffering is egotistical and pure evil." The person was pretty taken back with my question, but said a pretty short generic Christian line (and, yes, less than 0.1% of Japan's population is Christian - including protestants, Catholics, and the mormons).

Travis, you may not believe that those who don't believe in God/Jesus Christ are going to Hell, but it is a core belief of Christianity and can be found all throughout the Bible. I assume that you simply don't believe that the Bible is the word of God.

And I think it's funny that you're acting like "Atheism" is a religion. You could just say that I'm NOT a Christian and I'm NOT a Buddhist and I'm NOT a Muslim, etc. because I don't believe there is a God. I don't actively go out of my way to convince people that there is no God. My parents don't know I'm an atheist and I've been atheist for roughly 12-13 years now. I don't see any "real" harm in them believing in a God (there is, of course, the harm that if they know I'm an atheist, they'll think I'm going to Hell). But I just simply don't beleive in one myself.


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## Dusty201087 (Feb 16, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> Well, it just seems like a war. I get verbally attacked all of the time for being a christian, im a christian and i love the band dissection. What many christians think is that everyone should believe in one thing, most of it is propaganda but most people fail to see that not all christians are like that.



Wait wait wait. I just read this, and have to comment. People fail to see that not all Christians are like that? I don't. Yet you fail to see that not all atheists are bashing religion, you failed to in your first post, and it seems you're continuing the trend. What the hell dude. I'm in no way saying religion = bad, I just don't share your beliefs, so, (according to you) I attack you and other religious people for being religious.

I have to say dude, you're either going to have to A) start thinking about what you're saying when you post, or B) close this topic, because you stated this was supposed to be an "adult" discussion, then you're throwing stereotypes around.


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## newamerikangospel (Feb 16, 2009)

I think its hilarious, that christians see jews as these little devils, with wings, horns, and a spiked tail....dude, the only difference between judeaism and christianity, is the believe that jesus was the son of god.

I am purely sick of organized religion, and think that while it has a use (much like the internet) its starting to become what it wasn't really meant for (....like the internet). Its also very funny that you cant tell a "good" person, and a "true" christian apart. I have met very few "good/true" christians in my life. Only the ones who are pretentious, loose of tongue (gossip/judgement) and hard of heart (dont really do anything in the name of love for humanity). Its sickening, to watch something, that even if false, should provoke love and togetherness. Jesus never said "start a war with all non-believers", he said "lover everyone as thyself". He never said "those people are filthy harlots and should be put to death", he regularly dined with whores, sluts, and "evil" men (he said "The healthy dont need doctors, why do the saved need me?"). I find that the religion part has become an industry, producing money, much like watches or film, and has become a very glittery presented ideal that doesn't really have any traces of the true purpose. And unfortunetely some of that group mentality is "we are better than them", which is ridiculous by itself. I dont understand why parts of christianity looks at atheism in such a negative context. I love that christianity isn't the only religion, and that there are people who dont believe in "god". It allows me to clear my head of all the whimsical/nonsensical chatter that floats around on the radio/tv/internet, and look at the real reason I believe.

I am full fledged christian (as in I beleive in christ). I would like to say that when I say "he said", im referring to "as it is written as he said". I dont believe the Bible is inphalible, as it was written by human hands (and humanity twists through the spirals of entropy). I will tell you that I cant promis that my "faith" isn't a fictitious article written by a small group of hebrews several thousands of years ago (judeism is essentially christianity part 1, and is around 4,000 years old from what I understand, so its one of the original "religions".) 

Anyone who tells me I shouldn't believe in YHWH (what christians refer to as God), should also tell me what Orange wouldn't look good on a 1973 Sprint, and why I shouldn't love an all black guitar with a Gold tailpiece on it.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 16, 2009)

I am an agnostic. But I do my best not to force any of my beliefs on others, and to be tolerant of what another may believe.

I allow people to be what they are, I will not force you into some arbitrary mold of "perfection" nor do I condone such actions. We all believe what we believe for our own reasons, good and bad (and what's good and bad is even debatable). Very little has been done by trying to force people to be a certain way in any case, though often the intent is good. Such as the desire to bring someone out of folly.

And the whole "I am right, and you are wrong. End of stroy." train of thought must stop. It is usually counterproductive and very negative, with often little or no benfit to either side.

As for the existence of 1 or more gods. I am one of the probable few that are right on the fence, 50/50. There have been some very strange occourances in history and in the present day. If they are supernatural or not I do my best not to take a stand until there is more evidence on the subjects.

(For the sake of discussion)
Assuming there is a god. I would not believe that he is all powerful, he would simply appear so from our limited perspective. Also, I would think any instances of interference or tinkering with our world is minimal and rare, and that science can and will account for 99.999999999999999999999999999999999&#37; of all things that have happened, are happening, or will happen.

Assuming there is no god, all I can say is that life is the most wonderful accident to ever happen within the endless existence of this unimaginably huge universe.
Life is precious, and should be higly valued

I see christianity's values and satanism's vaules to essentially be, two sides of the same coin. While christianity teaches forgiveness, satanism teaches vengence.
The way I see it (but you may not) is that there are times we must shut up and take it, but there are other times when we must retaliate.

An interesting way to illistrate this point was something I read in a sci-fi series. A race of beings that were 100% non violent, which was fine and dandy as long as no intergalatic meanies came along. The meanies did come, and they were defenseless, All of them were wiped out, they are now just a forgotten page in history.

The opposite idea, fighting back when someone does something to you, no matter what is a prime example of how gang warfare works.

Make of all this what you will. I do not require you to think as I do, and I would perfer you decide for yourselves rather than conform to my idea of what is "right."


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 17, 2009)

RenegadeDave said:


> So you're so insecure in your belief structure that you cannot allow other ideologies to coexist, as it were? Or are you simply so egotistical to think affect some sort of modern renaissance through your personal crusade against anything believed to be divinely inspired? It seems that your very outlook on the situation has become a perfect mirror for primitive expansionist Christianity oppressing ideologies/theologies that are different from your own.
> 
> You accuse me of generalizing about what some people sometimes do, yet you are guilty of assuming that all members of a general group will always behave in a given way. My observations are obviously my own and accrued through my time on earth interacting with folks, you'll have to forgive me that I haven't had a chance to glean insight from my limited interactions with YOU personally and applying them to my musings on the religious debate at large. I still stand behind my prior post because you've done nothing but illustrate it. You're insecure in your ideology and are egocentric to the point that you think that nothing good can be attained as a result of an ideology/theology that differs from your own. Case and point: I'd love for your to air your grievances on Buddhism and how it has afflicted humanity with it's hideous recognizing of an Awakened One to lead it's to enthralled myrmidons to commit atrocities such as leading altruistic lives fraught with ethical behavior and devotion. You're right, that's a blight on humanity and needs to become nothing more than a footnote in a history text. Or the next time some person comes to your aid in a situation as small as letting you borrow their cell phone to make a call when your phone is dead and you desperately need to make a call. It could just be that person being good natured and friendly, or they could be following whatever religious doctrine they prescribe to but won't flaunt it in your face.
> 
> ...



I hate to say it dude, but you're coming across as more intolerant than Anthony is. Sharia =/= Devout Muslim. A devout Muslim might just follow the teachings of the Qur'an (peace, love, respecting the environment and animals etc) where as someone who follows Sharia law is similar to someone who follows Catholic Canon law, and is in my eyes, nuts.

I also think the point Anthony is trying to make is that if religious people refuse to acknowledge scientific findings or even try to undermine those findings with bogus claims and "research" then they're not helping anyone. I don't care what people believe in but if people just keep blithely shouting "GOD DID IT" whenever an important question is asked then what the hell is the point? They're not helping anyone so if they'd just keep it in their houses and places of worship and out of schools and government I'd be happy.

Also, I have yet to personally come across one of those Atheists you described in your previous post. Maybe on this side of the pond we all just shut up and get on with it...


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## Thrashmanzac (Feb 17, 2009)

> that atheists go around telling people that christians try to force our religion on you yet very few christians do that and every (non) religion does that?



as soon as i read that this thread lost all my respect.
im not touching this one


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## RenegadeDave (Feb 17, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> I hate to say it dude, but you're coming across as more intolerant than Anthony is. Sharia =/= Devout Muslim. A devout Muslim might just follow the teachings of the Qur'an (peace, love, respecting the environment and animals etc) where as someone who follows Sharia law is similar to someone who follows Catholic Canon law, and is in my eyes, nuts.
> 
> I also think the point Anthony is trying to make is that if religious people refuse to acknowledge scientific findings or even try to undermine those findings with bogus claims and "research" then they're not helping anyone. I don't care what people believe in but if people just keep blithely shouting "GOD DID IT" whenever an important question is asked then what the hell is the point? They're not helping anyone so if they'd just keep it in their houses and places of worship and out of schools and government I'd be happy.
> 
> Also, I have yet to personally come across one of those Atheists you described in your previous post. Maybe on this side of the pond we all just shut up and get on with it...



Very possible, I do live in the Southeastern United states, so we've more than our fair share of bible beaters so that may affect their behavior. I assure you the picture I painted is based on my personal experiences. And yes, I'm intolerant of those who are intolerant. 

As for Islam, I wasn't throwing stones at the Sharia (which is easy to do), but rather the Koran and what little of the Hadith I have read. In theory, the Meccan passages of peace and love are replaced by the Medinan passages of war, intolerance and slavery. Don't take my word for it though, Freekoran.com 
I assure you I am most tolerant of those who follow the teachings of Islam and aside from personally disagreeing with it, I am quite content to live and let live in that regard. My opinion is based on my experience with their holy text, not what soundbytes I've heard for or against it. 

As far as being intolerant of religious intolerance, you hit the nail on the head, I don't give anyone a pass in that regard.


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## hairychris (Feb 17, 2009)

All_&#165;our_Bass;1385990 said:


> I am an agnostic.



In other words you're an atheist.

Do you believe (not KNOW, as knowledge is related to agnosticism, not belief) in a god or gods?

Any answer other then 'yes' means that you are an atheist. Simple as. Not a theist.

Knowledge informs belief - I am kind of an agnostic atheist, kind of agnostic and definitely an atheist - but saying 'you don't/can't know' as an answer to a question about belief is avoiding the question.

FWIW I have major problems about the definition of god or gods, and what I can work out from these is that if any do exist (although use of the word is advisory) then they do so outside any frame of reference that coincides with our natural laws.



OP, please define your god. Assume that I've never heard of christianity. Believe me, it's nigh on impossible.

FWIW I'm anti religion, not just an atheist. This is from an intellectual and philosophical slant because IMO it stops people from attempting to understand the universe as it actually behaves, and also the whole 'god is my judge' mentality allows atrocities to be commited without self examination and also divorces any good deads from self respect (my god expects this of me in both cases).

I won't even go into my problems with the whole afterlife/immortal soul business. Dude, live life NOW, do good things for NOW, we only have one chance at this as no-one's proved otherwise.

On a practical level I'm live & let live. If soemthing works for someone I can think that they're wrong, but if it doesn't interfere with other people's rights then it's up to them.

Which, if I pick up on some things that have already been posted, is where the current arguments between christian creationism and, for example, science come in. This is not a god vs atheist row, but a certain interpretation of 'god' vs an intellectual methodology. Weird.

Anyway, if someone calls themselves a christian who am I ao argue, even if they hold weird-assed beliefs compared to other so called christian sects.

OP - do you have any idea how confused 'christianity' is to people who aren't actually believers? Same with the various muslim sects who enthusiastically blow each other up...


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## Koshchei (Feb 17, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> thats exactly what atheism is the belief that there is no god. if you say there is a chance there is a god then its agnostic.



No, this is incorrect. 

Agnosticism is fence-sitting. Atheism makes conclusions based on what we know, but leaves the possibility of being wrong open. Atheists shouldn't fall prey to the trap of belief or faith (mistaking a hypothesis for a conclusion) by making definitive claims - it's about what we *know* and what's probable - the point is that we don't impose our perspective on the Universe. At the same time, we challenge everything we're presented with - nothing is beyond scrutiny.

Example: At this point, we're certain, to the extent that a person can be totally certain, that we evolved in the same way that all other living things on this planet evolved. We're not sure how this mechanism manifests itself (in spurts or gradually), but we have so much evidence in support of evolution that it's foolish to claim that it's just a theory at this point. 

Note: Evolution is not random mutation - it's the non-random adaptation of a species to better suit its environment. In short: It is not the strongest of a species that survives to pass on its genes, but the most adaptive.

It's all in the dosage.


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## Dr. Von Goosewing (Feb 17, 2009)

hairychris said:


> OP - do you have any idea how confused 'christianity' is to people who aren't actually believers? Same with the various muslim sects who enthusiastically blow each other up...



 It doesen't help that there are so many splinter groups, each believing their own thing & seemingly convinced they know what 'true' Christianity (or other religion) is all about. To be brutally honest, I feel that religiously-inclined people are either a) raised that way, or b) pick something they like the sound of & just run with it through thick & thin. 

Maybe this isn't a productive post, but still it's just my thoughts.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm an agnostic athiest, and a very skeptical one at that. I do however think that if I believed in God, I'd probably be a theistic Satanist. As it stands, I dig the LaVey Satanist philosophies, and I agree with a lot of them, but I find the rituals and shit silly. I find all rituals silly, whether they be religious or non. This includes funerals and weddings.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 17, 2009)

RenegadeDave said:


> Very possible, I do live in the Southeastern United states, so we've more than our fair share of bible beaters so that may affect their behavior. I assure you the picture I painted is based on my personal experiences. And yes, I'm intolerant of those who are intolerant.
> 
> As for Islam, I wasn't throwing stones at the Sharia (which is easy to do), but rather the Koran and what little of the Hadith I have read. In theory, the Meccan passages of peace and love are replaced by the Medinan passages of war, intolerance and slavery. Don't take my word for it though, Freekoran.com
> I assure you I am most tolerant of those who follow the teachings of Islam and aside from personally disagreeing with it, I am quite content to live and let live in that regard. My opinion is based on my experience with their holy text, not what soundbytes I've heard for or against it.
> ...



Why don't you say that about the Bible then? It says things very similar to the Qur'an so to apply the one set of values to one book and not the other is a bit... odd. And did you ever stop to consider that WE would be considered socially irrelevant in Middle Eastern society?


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## Koshchei (Feb 17, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I'm an agnostic athiest, and a very skeptical one at that. I do however think that if I believed in God, I'd probably be a theistic Satanist. As it stands, I dig the LaVey Satanist philosophies, and I agree with a lot of them, but I find the rituals and shit silly. I find all rituals silly, whether they be religious or non. This includes funerals and weddings.



I like some of what Lavey says too, but I see it as no more than common sense spoken with strong language. I think that it's the height of sheep-like behavior to pay $200 to an organization for permission to live the way I already do.

Of course, if a law were to be passed tomorrow that requires all members of society to be affiliated with a religious organization or risk losing their passport/tax benefits, I'd join in a second, then find some way of passing the fee onto the government when I do my taxes. Of course, I could pretty much give up my plans for world domination in a heartbeat, but still...


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 17, 2009)

Yeah, but at least with the Satanic Church you don't HAVE to join if you don't want to, you can still consider yourself a Satanist. I think mostly what you get is access to other members in your area, like meeting places, shit like that. I can understand it, it's a one time fee, if you choose to associate yourself officially. But yeah, I wouldn't bother paying at all.


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## Koshchei (Feb 17, 2009)

I consider myself to be a "rationalist" (not in the Bill Maher sense - he's genuinely a good thinker, but takes a simplistic view when it suits him - I'm much more a fan of Christopher Hitchens), if that makes sense. It goes part and parcel with atheism and a healthy dose of curiosity about the way things work.

My definition of atheism is probably a little broader than most people's too. I don't just see it as just a rejection of the super-natural, but also as a rejection of the organizations and hierarchies that humans have built around the super-natural as well. That said, I do appreciate the architectural beauty of cathedrals and mosques and the magnificence of music that was written in praise of various deities; I just don't see any of these as having been divinely inspired - they're human creations dreamed up in transcendental numinous human moments, and can, I feel, be appreciated that much more, if we take them as such.


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## rahul_mukerji (Feb 17, 2009)

Recently, i find that most people of varying beliefs are pushing their own philosophy on others. this includes hindus, muslims, atheists and the other run of the mill beliefs. 

It wasn't like this, but there seems to be a sudden relegious / spiritual revival of sorts and everyone is suddenly aware and needs to inform others of their fate (as per their faith).

I've always been of the mindset: to each his own. You believe in what you want to and leave me alone. I couldnt care less what others believe in as long as they dont assault me for mine.

Yeah, LaVey's Satanism has some great rules, but then it runs into ritualistic practices and spells and then it becomes just another relegious affair. Major disappointment.

I dont really like the pasting of relegious beliefs all over the place.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 17, 2009)

The absolute worst is when I go to someone's desk here and they have gospel music playing and their religious propaganda slapped all over their desk. We get it, you believe in a god, that doesn't make it relevant to your work.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 17, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> The absolute worst is when I go to someone's desk here and they have gospel music playing and their religious propaganda slapped all over their desk. We get it, you believe in a god, that doesn't make it relevant to your work.



Most offices I've worked in wouldn't allow you to play music at your desk full-stop...

Actually, I've no problem with people having prayers and so forth up in their workspace, provided they don't talk about it to everyone and disrupt the working environment.:2cents:


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## Naren (Feb 17, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> I consider myself to be a "rationalist" (not in the Bill Maher sense - he's genuinely a good thinker, but takes a simplistic view when it suits him - I'm much more a fan of Christopher Hitchens), if that makes sense. It goes part and parcel with atheism and a healthy dose of curiosity about the way things work.
> 
> My definition of atheism is probably a little broader than most people's too. I don't just see it as just a rejection of the super-natural, but also as a rejection of the organizations and hierarchies that humans have built around the super-natural as well. That said, I do appreciate the architectural beauty of cathedrals and mosques and the magnificence of music that was written in praise of various deities; I just don't see any of these as having been divinely inspired - they're human creations dreamed up in transcendental numinous human moments, and can, I feel, be appreciated that much more, if we take them as such.



I totally understand what you mean. I've always been interested in religions, despite not believing in them. In elementary and junior high school, I studied ancient religions such as the ancient Egyptian, Greek, Norse, and Babylonian religions. Then in high school, I started studying various Eastern religions such as Confucianism, Hinduism, and Buddhism. When I entered college, one of the main focuses of my studies was Buddhism where I heavily studied Buddhist art, Buddhist philosophy, and went to perform Buddhist meditations in temples in remote areas (I studied in Japan) and had discussions with monks. Someone hearing that might have thought I was looking for a religion to believe in, but that couldn't be farther than the truth. I thought that these religions were like fantasy stories and I just thought that reading about the hundreds of hells in Buddhism was really interesting. Luckily Buddhism is not a proselytizing religion, so the Buddhists I interacted who knew I wasn't a Buddhist never tried to convert me, although when speaking with them, I always asked questions within their belief system.

I think the Buddhist art, Buddhist music, Buddhist architecture, Buddhist poetry, and even the teachings that I studied were very interesting. I just didn't believe it.



distressed_romeo said:


> Most offices I've worked in wouldn't allow you to play music at your desk full-stop...
> 
> Actually, I've no problem with people having prayers and so forth up in their workspace, provided they don't talk about it to everyone and disrupt the working environment.:2cents:



 Same here.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 17, 2009)

distressed_romeo said:


> Most offices I've worked in wouldn't allow you to play music at your desk full-stop...
> 
> Actually, I've no problem with people having prayers and so forth up in their workspace, provided they don't talk about it to everyone and disrupt the working environment.:2cents:



They don't crank it, but if it's at their desk and a reasonable volume no one says anything, even if technically they aren't supposed to use the PC's for anything but work related shit.

I just don't think it's appropriate for the work place. I don't listen to metal at my desk out of respect for other people, and if I wanted to decorate my office with a metal poster or something I know for a fact it would cause a big stink, and I'd be asked to take it down. Sour grapes? Maybe, but I still don't think it's work appropriate.


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## Koshchei (Feb 17, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> They don't crank it, but if it's at their desk and a reasonable volume no one says anything, even if technically they aren't supposed to use the PC's for anything but work related shit.
> 
> I just don't think it's appropriate for the work place. I don't listen to metal at my desk out of respect for other people, and if I wanted to decorate my office with a metal poster or something I know for a fact it would cause a big stink, and I'd be asked to take it down. Sour grapes? Maybe, but I still don't think it's work appropriate.



This is why, on the seventh day, the lord invented iPods.


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## mustang-monk (Feb 17, 2009)

Apple fans are the worst religious fanatics.


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## RenegadeDave (Feb 17, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Why don't you say that about the Bible then? It says things very similar to the Qur'an so to apply the one set of values to one book and not the other is a bit... odd. And did you ever stop to consider that WE would be considered socially irrelevant in Middle Eastern society?



Like I said in my first post, it was easier to read the bible with a grain of salt (notably the new testament if you're to draw parity to the chief religious figure) vs. Muhammad in the Koran. Jesus's message was more about self denial and sacrifice. Looking at him through the eye of skepticism, I guess he could have enjoyed the fame/infamy he received and that could have been a motivator, but he gathered very little material wealth and essentially lived life in poverty. He maintained his ruse to the very end and it was ultimately what killed him. 

Conversely, toward the end of Muhammad's life I felt like his worldly desires started manifesting themselves quite obviously when he started contradicting himself and on what he had previously revealed. That's when the message shifted from peace and love to "there is Islam and there is no other way", and stuff about the dhimmi started popping up, taqiyya and kitman, the verse of the sword and the like. All of this coincided with Muhammad garnering a strong following. Granted, the books of the Koran are arranged shortest to longest and not chronologically so it's difficult to say what his final interpretation was. His final years I felt were in stark contrast to his early years which makes it entirely easy to view him as an L Ron Hubbard type. 

Either way, you're welcome to dissect my views of various world religions further if you wish as we stroll off topic  

As for a secularized westerner being socially irrelevant in the middle east, yeah, you're probably right. That's one reason I haven't moved there... but I don't exist in a Islamo-centric country, I live in a secular westernized environment, so my original statement still stands. Devout Muslims are just as socially irrelevant as devout Christians in a secular setting. There was the supposition that you implied in a secular/western setting, but if you're one of those folks that needs to read things literally, I've now spelled it out for you 

In my mind, there's nothing wrong with moderates in any religion, I've met plenty of moderate Muslims who were dandy people, I know moderate Christians who are dandy people.


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## Koshchei (Feb 17, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> Apple fans are the worst religious fanatics.



I am a PC. I treat my computer like a machine and not a religious artifact, sent from heaven to solve a problem that I was not aware that I had.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 17, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> This is why, on the seventh day, the lord invented iPods.





I would, but most of the time I need to hear my phone ring, or I'm running around and talking to people anyways  But when I do data entry I rock the iPod


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 17, 2009)

To the guy who left me a neg stating "FUCK GOD!!! FUCK BABY JESUS TOO!!!" please know that Jesus aged, like you and me.


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## mustang-monk (Feb 17, 2009)

nah jesus multiplied in to larger forms.


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## ILdÐÆMcº³ (Feb 17, 2009)

^Nah, Jesus became a zombie to seek out and eat the brains of the Romans who murdered him. But then he got bored and said fuck it went to smoked some doobies and has been crashing in his Dad's basement ever sense. 

I went to see him the other day and asked him if he was planing on coming back to earth sometime soon. He just freaked out and lit up another bowl and downed a half a bottle of whiskey in like 10 seconds. I think he is kind of traumatized by the last time he was here. Cool dude though, he just has to back off on the substances a little bit...


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## ILdÐÆMcº³ (Feb 17, 2009)

*...
*


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 17, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> To the guy who left me a neg stating "FUCK GOD!!! FUCK BABY JESUS TOO!!!" please know that Jesus aged, like you and me.



While I don't disagree with those sentiments, I think it's silly to neg rep you for just stating what you believe. You haven't pulled a FlyingBanana here and condemned us all so I don't see the beef


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## MorbidTravis (Feb 17, 2009)

were his threads deleted?i would like to view waht he said.


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## Brendan G (Feb 17, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> were his threads deleted?i would like to view waht he said.


He posted in the "What do you believe happens after you die thread?" that thread may have been closed, deleted, it is worth searching for though.


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## caughtinamosh (Feb 17, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> While I don't disagree with those sentiments, I think it's silly to neg rep you for just stating what you believe. You haven't pulled a FlyingBanana here and condemned us all so I don't see the beef



Those were the days . I remember when Jeff tore him a new one... class.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 17, 2009)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/the-lounge/66241-what-do-you-beleive-happens-when-you-die.html

On topic:

I've lived a few years and I've seen/lived through some very thought provoking experiences but I have yet to see anything which has persuaded me there's a single "God" figure, or indeed a pantheon of gods. The only real affinity I have for any religious standpoint would be philosophical satanism on a cynical day, and agnosticsm on a good day...

I try not to get involved in religious debates beyond stating personal beliefs because whilst I don't have issue with discussing my point of view I dislike doing so over the internet because of the issues which can arise with miscommunication.


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## Dusty201087 (Feb 17, 2009)

hairychris said:


> In other words you're an atheist.
> 
> Do you believe (not KNOW, as knowledge is related to agnosticism, not belief) in a god or gods?
> 
> Any answer other then 'yes' means that you are an atheist. Simple as. Not a theist.




No, I'm sorry, that's wrong. You're agnostic if you think god is possible, but aren't sure (within yourself) if god is real/not real. I spent a lot of time being agnostic before I finally concluded that I don't believe in god, and still to this day I hate it when people say "No, you're an atheist" there is a difference. You can be atheist, agnostic, even agnostic-atheist.


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## hairychris (Feb 18, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> No, I'm sorry, that's wrong. You're agnostic if you think god is possible, but aren't sure (within yourself) if god is real/not real. I spent a lot of time being agnostic before I finally concluded that I don't believe in god, and still to this day I hate it when people say "No, you're an atheist" there is a difference. You can be atheist, agnostic, even agnostic-atheist.



No... not exactly...

A theist is someone who _believes_ in a god or gods. An atheist is someone who holds ANY OTHER POSITION - eg is not a theist. This includes people who believe positively that there's no god (strong atheists), people who aren't convinced that there is evidence for a god (weak atheists), and those who haven't got a clue _but don't act on the assumption that there is_ (who usually call themselves agnostics).

Gnosticism/agnosticism is not a separate statement of belief, it is a statement about knowledge. The fact that you might not know there's a god is different to whether you believe in said deity. The difference is subtle.

Note: agnosticism is not saying 'I don't know that there's a god', it's actually the claim that 'I don't think that knowledge of god is possible'. Gnostics claim that god is knowable, fwiw.

People who claim that agnosticism is 1/2 way between theism and atheism are, to put it shortly, incorrect* because the terms imply different requirements. There's a certain train of thought that actually looks at 'agnosticism' as logically flawed - how can you logically back up a claim that any knowledge (in this case of god) is unknowable (the claim of the agnostic)?

In the terms that you use, I'll admit that a god could be possible but highly unlikely. Maybe. But the instant that it's proven everything that we know about the natural world in terms of cause and effect is immediately rendered useless. The deistic god - a good example of an agnostic god, if you like, because it's outside our frame of reality - in my opinion is as good as no god at all because there's no way that we can define it in sensible terms. It's outside all of our conceptual reference points and doesn't interfere in our reality!



* unless you claim to be a member of a Gnostic (capital G) sect which means something different. And they're theists...


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## Xiphos68 (Feb 18, 2009)

This not attacking this is just explaining something about Christians. Most true Christians who actually live there life like one. They just want to get the Gospel out for all of the people to here the message and not to discourage anyone. I bet most people don't know this either. It says in the Bible if you try to tell someone about the Gospel and they don't want to hear it you just stop telling them about it because it is the sacred word of God.


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## hairychris (Feb 18, 2009)

Xiphos68 said:


> This not attacking this is just explaining something about Christians. Most true Christians who actually live there life like one. They just want to get the Gospel out for all of the people to here the message and not to discourage anyone. I bet most people don't know this either. It says in the Bible if you try to tell someone about the Gospel and they don't want to hear it you just stop telling them about it because it is the sacred word of God.



The one thing that I can hope is that all Christians as you describe. They aren't, but that's wishful thinking. 

Thing is it's not just 'getting the gospel' out there, but belief informs other actions too.


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## Xiphos68 (Feb 18, 2009)

What do you mean wishful thinking?


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 18, 2009)

Xiphos68 said:


> What do you mean wishful thinking?



Meaning it would be nice if it were true, but it unfortunately isn't in a lot of cases. Too many supposed Christians don't infact live their lives, or treat their faith, in the way you describe.


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## hairychris (Feb 18, 2009)

distressed_romeo said:


> Meaning it would be nice if it were true, but it unfortunately isn't in a lot of cases. Too many supposed Christians don't infact live their lives, or treat their faith, in the way you describe.



Precisely! I'd love it if all religious people would keep it to themselves, so I'm not knocking Christians specifically.

There's enough non-religious mayhem in the world to be going on with anyway. The injection of 'god' into an argument quite often turns it from simply political, financial or racial into something _completely_ insoluable.

No thanks.

Or rather, once the theists have sorted out exactly what god is between yourselves then they can come and annoy us. On the other hand, prove that your god (whatever it is) is true using good stuff like logic and evidence, and that'll go a long way to clearing up these discussions.

All I'm asking is for the same quality of evidence to back the claim up as I'd ask for any major case to be made.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 18, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Precisely! I'd love it if all religious people would keep it to themselves, so I'm not knocking Christians specifically.
> 
> There's enough non-religious mayhem in the world to be going on with anyway. The injection of 'god' into an argument quite often turns it from simply political, financial or racial into something _completely_ insoluable.
> 
> ...



What really burns my ass is in any discussion where a Christian is trying to "prove" their god exists, or trying to address any questions to the validity of the bible, and they quote scripture. So....the bible is true because the bible says so? The fact that there's people that stupid out there just annoys me, and makes me ashamed to be part of the same race.

Present company in this thread excluded of course, I haven't heard any of that crap from any of you, except maybe xiphos, but that was before you could put together a coherent post, so I'll forgive you


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## Koshchei (Feb 18, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> What really burns my ass is in any discussion where a Christian is trying to "prove" their god exists, or trying to address any questions to the validity of the bible, and they quote scripture. So....the bible is true because the bible says so? The fact that there's people that stupid out there just annoys me, and makes me ashamed to be part of the same race.
> 
> Present company in this thread excluded of course, I haven't heard any of that crap from any of you, except maybe xiphos, but that was before you could put together a coherent post, so I'll forgive you



I don't mind so much the logical fallacies that religious folks use to justify their strange beliefs, as on some level, they have to realize that what they're saying is ridiculous. I'm also convinced that they lose more followers than they gain just by telling outsiders what the tenets of their belief are. The only way I could imagine a person blindly accepting that God sent himself down to earth on a suicide mission by impregnating a Jewish woman, who then gave birth to Jesus, who was his own father, would be if he was completely shitfucked on chemicals.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 18, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> I don't mind so much the logical fallacies that religious folks use to justify their strange beliefs, as on some level, they have to realize that what they're saying is ridiculous.



The part that gets me though is that they DON'T. They really do not. It makes absolute, perfect sense to them. I can deal with them having faith in something they can't prove, whatever, that's none of my business, but in a discussion about it, when they use a fallacy like that and they think it is absolute, undeniable proof that god exists and they think YOU are the one being ridiculous by not understanding


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## hairychris (Feb 19, 2009)

Aaaaaaaaand then you get this:

Letter: Why didn't flight crew mention God? - Muskegon Opinion - Editorials, Letters, Voices - MLive.com



Courtesy of Fark.com


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 19, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Aaaaaaaaand then you get this:
> 
> Letter: Why didn't flight crew mention God? - Muskegon Opinion - Editorials, Letters, Voices - MLive.com
> 
> ...



E-rep for making me laug!

This reply was especially awesome...



> In a similar vein, I was offended that there was no mention of Allah, Odin, Zeus, Shiva, Gozer or Yog-Sothoth.
> 
> The pilot is obviously spiritually bankrupt and had no business saving a planeload of people from a gruesome death.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 19, 2009)

I don't think Yog-Sottoth has an investment in saving people from birdstrikes but that cheered me up when I needed it.....as for Gozer....

AIM FOR THE FLAT-TOP!!







Sorry for the off-topic. 



> Or rather, once the theists have sorted out exactly what god is between yourselves then they can come and annoy us. On the other hand, prove that your god (whatever it is) is true using good stuff like logic and evidence, and that'll go a long way to clearing up these discussions.



That sums up the matter for me. When we have agreed-upon definitions we all have at least a reference point....arguing over the existance of an entity we can't even agree upon doesn't make any sense.......(Unless we drag out the whole faith denies proof/explanation argument that some zealots revert to at which point I go for a beer).


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## hairychris (Feb 19, 2009)

Fark thread is here which is somewhat more bitchy: FARK.com: (4220359) Letter writer wants to know why Captain Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger didn&#39;t mention God when interviewed for 60 Minutes. Tag is for the letter writer, Thread is for the inevitable flame war


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 19, 2009)

Thats a whole lot of bitchy....

Edit!

......and a whole lot of stupid in places.


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## Koshchei (Feb 19, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Thats a whole lot of bitchy....
> 
> Edit!
> 
> ......and a whole lot of stupid in places.



/Zing!


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## Sang-Drax (Feb 23, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> 2) Interference of Christianity in secular affairs. The most modern example of this has been George Bush's regime in the United States, where he had political appointees actively tamper with scientific discovery and education in areas that conflicted with party ideology - the teaching of evolution in school, being most notable. This pisses American atheists off because it violates the constitution, and scares the crap out of all atheists everywhere, because it represents the intellectual backslide of the most powerful nation of the world back into ignorance and intolerance.



This. I haven't read through the whole thread, but I guess this is where I draw the line. I don't care to what people believe if they do not interfere with my life (and if they don't sacrifice animals or children either). Modern Christianity tend to stimulate the practice of good acts, so, in theory at least, that's a good thing.

However, the idea of a president taking actions based on religion is hideous. The split between religion and State affairs was a huge conquest for mankind for one man alone to put everything to ruin. Luckily, my current president, albeit Christian, often reassures he won't do that due to the fact that Brazil is a secular country (thank God!). I did have a State Governor that was the opposite, and it *is* offensive to non-believers (all the more because he's 10 times more corrupt than the average Brazilian politician and a moron on top of that).


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## CrushingAnvil (Feb 24, 2009)

I'm a crazy, Existentialist philosopher in my own right but I just never bought into the whole 'Pray for baby Jesus' (pretty sure they didn't put a baby up on the crucifix) thing.

I have a theory that If you process thoughts fast enough you can practically make your brain divide by zero and be stuck in slow motion thought until you forget to breathe and you eventually die...but I don't pitch that stuff to people and say "I'LL BURN YOUR HOUSE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME, FILTHY PAGAN" 

I'm cool with Christians, Catholics, Hindu's etc but not when they offer to save me...but to be fair it is honestly only Christians who feel the need to do that - I actually think catholics over here are very respectable. 


I am in no way an Athiest, I think we are the most insignificant beings in this universe in some way...There is something out there, be it a deity or a race similar to human beings.

I write bloody-ear-inducing-psyche-raping-death-metal for the Fundamentalist Christians of _today _


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## guitarbuilder93 (Feb 24, 2009)

this may be off-topic in some way/shape/form, but...

State Sen. Ernie Chambers Sues God - Omaha News Story - KETV Omaha

it may just be to prove a point, but still...


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## Dusty201087 (Feb 24, 2009)

guitarbuilder93 said:


> this may be off-topic in some way/shape/form, but...
> 
> State Sen. Ernie Chambers Sues God - Omaha News Story - KETV Omaha
> 
> it may just be to prove a point, but still...



I think that's pretty hilarious actually, people get sued all the time, but "god" killed how many people in the bible? He should get a life sentence 

What if "god" gets the death penalty?


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## guitarplayerone (Feb 24, 2009)

just my  coming here. For what its worth I get along very well with my christian friends and never criticise them for their beliefs. but below is what I honestly feel, and what many honestly feel, and may contribute to a vocalization of this aspect of society.

modern religion certainly slows down stem cell research, which is by far the most promising medical phenomenon in recent years. this is certainly 'imposing a belief/values system on others. you guys aren't repressed. you are on our money, you are in our offices, you have won elections and diverty _MY_ taxes towards debating if we should let two people with the same parts play with each other. so personally, I could care les about what someone's personal religious beliefs are, if they are supportive of a system that is detrimental to the health and efficiency of society and government. the USA is one of the last outposts of this sort of madness, but ALL religion causes these sorts of effects. You may have valid points with your faith, and it may help you in your personal life. in fact you may have seen 'miracles' or other phenomena that certainly would have converted myself had I seen them. all of this is irrelevant to me if you impede my research, if you divert the flow of taxes and conversation, away from real issues, and towards 'faith and values arguments'. 

this is the position of the modern scientist, and I don't even want to hear something about christian scientists. don't take penicillin derivatives, ever if you don't believe in evolution. there are penecillin derivatives because of selection of resistant organisms, and the creation of modified structures was the only way to keep killing specific strains. this is evolution by definition. if you argue that this is over a short period of time, sure, but I ask you, how many generations? (maybe you won't post such an argument, but this is just a rant if someone wishes to)

I do not need your religion preaching to me about 'helping people' I am a good person regardless, and I PERSONALLY take responsibility for my level of kindness, and make my own decisions. the further position of many anti-religion crusaders is that religion is, as Karl Marx put, "the opiate of the masses". now what is meant here is that it provides a rigorous belief structure that incorporates many aspects of world interpretation and life interpretation, and being a religion, often these are taken literally. therefore this absolves any believer of any responsibility towards the possibly questionable validity of an issue in the first place, allowing them to say "I am a christian, and this is how I think"- PERIOD. No further thought required. No inquisition (pardon a mild pun). Nothing. This is maddening, as when you consider the 'groupthink' mentality simply of ipods and starbucks. How many people do you know who own an ipod? How many people do you know which own another mp3 player? Groupthink at work here, and when groupthink goes to town on what I and many others consider to be the progression of the human animal (ouch, huh), then this becomes a major problem. so this is not a personal attack, not an attack on christianity but an attack on all exclusive belief systems. nobody would have any reason to 'repress the poor christians' -(who got to where they are now by killing lots and lots of people) if they just stayed out of our government and schools'. And by government I mean federal. Local states can do whatever their majorities vote for. Then they can impose whatever they want on the local likeminded populace.




RenegadeDave said:


> So you're so insecure in your belief structure that you cannot allow other ideologies to coexist, as it were? Or are you simply so egotistical to think affect some sort of modern renaissance through your personal crusade against anything believed to be divinely inspired? It seems that your very outlook on the situation has become a perfect mirror for primitive expansionist Christianity oppressing ideologies/theologies that are different from your own.
> 
> You accuse me of generalizing about what some people sometimes do, yet you are guilty of assuming that all members of a general group will always behave in a given way. My observations are obviously my own and accrued through my time on earth interacting with folks, you'll have to forgive me that I haven't had a chance to glean insight from my limited interactions with YOU personally and applying them to my musings on the religious debate at large. I still stand behind my prior post because you've done nothing but illustrate it. You're insecure in your ideology and are egocentric to the point that you think that nothing good can be attained as a result of an ideology/theology that differs from your own. Case and point: I'd love for your to air your grievances on Buddhism and how it has afflicted humanity with it's hideous recognizing of an Awakened One to lead it's to enthralled myrmidons to commit atrocities such as leading altruistic lives fraught with ethical behavior and devotion. You're right, that's a blight on humanity and needs to become nothing more than a footnote in a history text. Or the next time some person comes to your aid in a situation as small as letting you borrow their cell phone to make a call when your phone is dead and you desperately need to make a call. It could just be that person being good natured and friendly, or they could be following whatever religious doctrine they prescribe to but won't flaunt it in your face.
> 
> ...


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## The Atomic Ass (Feb 24, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> Apple fans are the worst religious fanatics.



HEATHEN!

[action=The Atomic Ass]whips out the Apple on a gold chain he wears near his heart always[/action]

Oh our lord Steve Jobs, punish this pitiful cretin.


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## guitarbuilder93 (Feb 25, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> I think that's pretty hilarious actually, people get sued all the time


 
well i posted it cause i almost pissed my pants... guess i forgot that part 
i thought the best part was when it was thrown out of court for not having a contact address for god!

i guess nobody's used Google Maps before...


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## The Atomic Ass (Feb 25, 2009)

guitarbuilder93 said:


> this may be off-topic in some way/shape/form, but...
> 
> State Sen. Ernie Chambers Sues God - Omaha News Story - KETV Omaha
> 
> it may just be to prove a point, but still...



I found that to be remarkably funny.


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## hairychris (Feb 25, 2009)

The Atomic Ass said:


> I found that to be remarkably funny.



Me too...


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## Dusty201087 (Feb 25, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> just my



Quite possibly the best thing I've read today, I tip my hat and raise a glass to you sir


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## JBroll (Feb 26, 2009)

You may not see how Christianity is forced on people - you were raised around it, so unless you've made a conscious effort to question everything and really look into every detail you just can't see what's really going on.

It's entrenched in our government and political arena in ways that are simply unimaginable for a Christian - several states, including my own, require taking an oath that includes, among other things, a religious oath before taking office. The media simply does not acknowledge nonreligious work in the same way as religious work - if you and some friends spend 20 hours a week *each* tutoring or working with 'at-risk' students, you're ignored because some asshole who did a tenth of the work but threw Jesus in every other sentence has to be in the newspaper first. Even outside public office, where - except in very rare cases - religion is a prerequisite, being identified as an atheist can bring about all kinds of serious and unrelated problems... apart from losing your job because you didn't staple your TPS reports exactly 1/4" from the top-left corner the week after someone finds out you're not religious (really, no coincidence there), you could find yourself being harassed and threatened with serious violence - I know because it's happened to me *personally*.

Christians are simply the biggest offenders because they're the biggest minority - it's not like atheists have a hard-on for Muslim proselytization. If someone tries to force anything on me - or, believe it or not, an atheist who doesn't know I'm in the same boat tries to talk me into becoming an atheist (if there were ever a reason to staple someone's lips together...) - I simply do not respond well. 

Unfortunately for us, there is simply no way to get a majority of this nation's population to think an atheist can be a good person. Some Christians have a very nasty tendency towards demonizing belief systems. I was raised Catholic, and one big thing in Catholicism was that every religion had a grain of truth - but Catholicism had all of it, and was the best... however, when someone isn't religious, everything is ruined and there's no way to rectify the complete rejection of a religion with that assertion. This leads to many things - atheists being one of the most distrusted minorities in the country (and often *the* most distrusted), religious tests for office, and so on - that don't work out well.

You simply wouldn't believe the shit that happens to you when you're not a religious (or hiding nonreligious) person. Once you see what it's like to not even be able to walk down the hall between your classes without someone screaming at you, trying to 'argue' (i.e. blather nonsensically so quickly and constantly that the lack of a response is taken as instant victory), trying to 'convert' you (it's okay, it may seem like I'm insulting your intelligence by trying to drag you into a religion you know more about than I do for no reason other than that I like it and think everyone should be forced to believe in it... but it's only because I *care* about you), or telling you that they're praying for you, you'll have a much different viewpoint.

Jeff


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## CrushingAnvil (Mar 2, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> What doesnt make sense to me, is that satanists(depending on what type you are) say that God doesnt exist, yet they listen to satan.



dude...

do you know what the word satan means?...


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## JBroll (Mar 2, 2009)

It doesn't sound like he knows what Satanism is, either... that's something I've never heard out of an actual Satanist.

Jeff


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## MorbidTravis (Mar 2, 2009)

CrushingAnvil said:


> dude...
> 
> do you know what the word satan means?...



if you had scrolled through the rest of the conversation you would have seen it was explained to me. there are 2 types etc...


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## Blexican (Mar 4, 2009)

You guys should all watch Religulous sometime, it's a very eye-opening movie.


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## BurialWithin (Mar 4, 2009)

Blexican said:


> You guys should all watch Religulous sometime, it's a very eye-opening movie.


 Oh definitely i rented it the other night and i loved it . I'm a huge fan of bill maher and it just was brilliant and hilarious.


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## Koshchei (Mar 4, 2009)

I liked the movie overall, but felt that there were several very preachy moments. Maher, as I said earlier in this thread, is a good thinker, but sometimes subverts his own message by going for the cheap laugh.

The best part was the trucker stop, where the great big fat guy starts going off about how he was a Satanist who did drugs and had loose sex with women before he found Jesus (hiding in the second roll from the bottom? he's always in the last place you look). That's a story I hear from a LOT of born-againers, but ask them a simple question about Satanism (theistic OR philosophical), left-hand path religion in general, or anything of the sort, and they hit stop->rewind and recite the same thing again. They're clearly either indoctrinated into believing total crap (I can't believe I just said that, Captain Obvious), or they're making it up to lend credibility to a system of beliefs that's so knobbly and tenuous that a strong breeze could topple it.

Paraphrased from the Satanic Bible: Stupidity (the willful ignorance kind, not the dropped on my head as infant kind) and Self-deception are the two worst crimes a person can commit. Hear! Hear!


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## Anthony (Mar 4, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> I liked the movie overall, but felt that there were several very preachy moments. Maher, as I said earlier in this thread, is a good thinker,* but sometimes subverts his own message by going for the cheap laugh.*



That's exactly why I didn't enjoy the movie too much.


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## Metal Ken (Mar 4, 2009)

RenegadeDave said:


> If history has taught us anything it's that if your repress a body of peoples for their beliefs, the group of people will typically rise against you, usually violently.



I just saw this, and i thought it was really funny. If we look at the major religions, its actually rather the opposite. Who has oppressed muslims, ever? They make up a dominant part of the middle east, and have a huge population in china. Likewise, since roman times, when has christianity ever been oppressed? These are the two most violent religions of the past 1000 years. 
Contrarily, Judaism gets repressed all the time, yet i havent seen any jewish crusades, jewish witchhunts or jewish jihads.


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## Koshchei (Mar 4, 2009)

Jewish Crusade, witch hunt and holy war: Palestine.
The Palestinians are just as bad, but we're not talking about them.

Muslim oppression: India, resulting in the eventual creation of Pakistan.

I don't agree with the original point either though. The most a persecuted minority can usually hope for is a fast escape from their country as refugees before they're made extinct.


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## Brendan G (Mar 4, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> I think that's pretty hilarious actually, people get sued all the time, but "god" killed how many people in the bible? He should get a life sentence
> 
> What if "god" gets the death penalty?


Haven't you read any Nietzsche? He IS dead! .


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## Metal Ken (Mar 4, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> Jewish Crusade, witch hunt and holy war: Palestine.
> The Palestinians are just as bad, but we're not talking about them.
> 
> Muslim oppression: India, resulting in the eventual creation of Pakistan.
> ...



Yeah, Palestine, but thats not entirely jewish now, either. Americans are getting in on that to defend the holy land from heathens and shit. 
And, it isn't the same degree of inhumanity as witch hunts or crusades were.

Also, if i recall, the whole pakistan creation wasnt because of an active persecution, but more along the lines of muslims being shunned from normal society? Could be wrong.


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## Vairocarnal (Mar 4, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> Alright, before you say anything I'm not going to tell you to believe in God or you will go to Hell for an eternity. You are allowed to believe in what ever you want. But if you are a Christian believing in God to get away from Hell, you are a Christian for the wrong reason. so lets start.
> no bullshit please, i want to have a serious conversation, and still be friends because i wont see you any differently no matter your religion, or no religion.
> 
> So, why is that atheists go around telling people that christians try to force our religion on you yet very few christians do that and every (non) religion does that? I understand that christians used to force natives to convert and some are still trying to convert other today, but now the atheists are having advertisements on public buses saying that there is no God. If atheists dont like christians trying to convert others, why are they putting up advertisements saying there is no God?
> ...



It's because history is doomed to repeat itself and unfortunately for the people of this planet the squirreliest motherfuckers usually end up at the top of whatever system's in control and pull some supremacist bullshit. 

Long story short I don't think it's that two groups "Fight" per se but rather a third party that either starts a dispute or perpetuates it for their own gain.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 5, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> Jewish Crusade, witch hunt and holy war: Palestine.
> The Palestinians are just as bad, but we're not talking about them.
> 
> Muslim oppression: India, resulting in the eventual creation of Pakistan.
> ...





To say that the Israelis aren't persecuting the Palestinians is just ridiculous.

And let's not forget the original Crusades too.


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## CrushingAnvil (Mar 5, 2009)

MorbidTravis said:


> if you had scrolled through the rest of the conversation you would have seen it was explained to me. there are 2 types etc...



Well I've always thought for Arabic (Via Religious studies in school) It Meant to be hostile and in hebrew it means the wanderer.

Also I thought I read somewhere that the word means free thought or something like that.



I've given up, personally, on the whole battle/argument - I'll live my life through no one but myself, doing things for myself and the people I care for  Although It'd be handy if god could get me a job


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## estabon37 (Mar 5, 2009)

CrushingAnvil said:


> Well I've always thought for Arabic (Via Religious studies in school) It Meant to be hostile and in hebrew it means the wanderer.
> 
> Also I thought I read somewhere that the word means free thought or something like that.
> 
> ...



You could always become a priest.


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## hairychris (Mar 5, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> I just saw this, and i thought it was really funny. If we look at the major religions, its actually rather the opposite. Who has oppressed muslims, ever? They make up a dominant part of the middle east, and have a huge population in china. Likewise, since roman times, when has christianity ever been oppressed? These are the two most violent religions of the past 1000 years.
> Contrarily, Judaism gets repressed all the time, yet i havent seen any jewish crusades, jewish witchhunts or jewish jihads.



Well, fwiw, Mohammed was exiled during his lifetime which added a certain something to his teachings.

Anyway, with Islam being an expansionist religion with the ultimate goal being a global caliphate (at least according to some flavours of it) you can see that they could yell about being oppressed in any situation other then being in 100% control of that society.

As for Christianity being oppressed... well, in certain cultures it is and has been. The one thing to remember is that because Christianity depends so much in interpretation that various sects and factions have been oppressing each other since the start.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 5, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Well, fwiw, Mohammed was exiled during his lifetime which added a certain something to his teachings.
> 
> Anyway, with Islam being an expansionist religion with the ultimate goal being a global caliphate (at least according to some flavours of it) you can see that they could yell about being oppressed in any situation other then being in 100% control of that society.
> 
> As for Christianity being oppressed... well, in certain cultures it is and has been. The one thing to remember is that because Christianity depends so much in interpretation that various sects and factions have been oppressing each other since the start.



But in fairness, Christianity is also an expansionist religion just as much as Islam. The bible is rife with aggressive language.


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## arktan (Mar 6, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> as Karl Marx put, "the opiate of the masses".



Marx was wrong in that regard. You can't compare Opiates with religion.







































Because opiates are mind-_*expanding*_ drugs.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 6, 2009)

arktan said:


> Marx was wrong in that regard. You can't compare Opiates with religion.
> 
> 
> Because opiates are mind-_*expanding*_ drugs.



By mind expanding you mean having mind and body do basically nothing but stare at the floral patterns on plates for _hours_ on end?


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## hairychris (Mar 6, 2009)

Not necessarily... Getting hit up with morphine after an operation ain't mind expanding but it makes the world a _very_ happy place.


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## arktan (Mar 6, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> By mind expanding you mean having mind and body do basically nothing but stare at the floral patterns on plates for _hours_ on end?



From my point of view still more mind-expanding than believing in 

-a father of a zombie-son-of-god 

-a god's prophet-warrior-leader who wrecked half of the middle east and was to afraid to stand and fight in a middle eastern city 

-a god of slaves who didn't put up a fight against a tyrant 

-a place where i go after i die with my bowels spread all over a battlefield.

-etc. etc.


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## Koshchei (Mar 8, 2009)

Metal Ken said:


> Also, if i recall, the whole pakistan creation wasnt because of an active persecution, but more along the lines of muslims being shunned from normal society? Could be wrong.



There was a lot of violent persecution directed towards Muslims and Sikhs in India. Inasmuch as India is hundreds of years ahead of the world from a multi-culturalist and pluralist perspective, the population are really superstitious and uneducated, and as such are easy to incite, as Mahatma Gandhi did.

Regarding the persecution of Jews in Europe, I've always been fascinated with the Roma and their totally different approach to dealing with exclusion and alienation by the countries they inhabit. There's a deep cultural affinity between the gypsies and the Ashkenazim, which I don't fully understand, as they occupy diametrically opposite positions in society - the Roma are nomadic, existing on the periphery of society, whereas Jews are the entrenched centre of the merchant class - one would see the two as incompatible, yet there's a great deal of cultural cross-pollination, especially musically.


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## hairychris (Mar 10, 2009)

Creationism 'should be taught in science lessons' - Telegraph

This bullshit has now spread to where I grew up. I am very, very, very annoyed about this. Coming from a family of teachers idiocy like this really gets my goat. If my father was still alive he'd be even angrier then I am.

Thanks, vocal moronic minority (I hope) of christians and their vocal moronic muslim friends...


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 10, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Creationism 'should be taught in science lessons' - Telegraph
> 
> This bullshit has now spread to where I grew up. I am very, very, very annoyed about this. Coming from a family of teachers idiocy like this really gets my goat. If my father was still alive he'd be even angrier then I am.
> 
> Thanks, vocal moronic minority (I hope) of christians and their vocal moronic muslim friends...



For fuck's sake...


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## Pauly (Mar 11, 2009)

Creationism curriculum, start of the school year: 

God did it, the end. Thanks for coming.


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 24, 2009)

Christians vs Atheists?

bumpin' this little gem!

basically, if there was a war between Christians and Atheists as you are implying, then Atheists would certainly win. why you ask? well because while the Christians were praying for victory and reading up on The Bible (don't get me started on that), the Atheists would be thinking about practical ways to win, thus resulting in a better-prepared wage on the latter's half and an ensuing victory on their part.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 24, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Christians vs Atheists?
> 
> bumpin' this little gem!
> 
> basically, if there was a war between Christians and Atheists as you are implying, then Atheists would certainly win. why you ask? well because while the Christians were praying for victory and reading up on The Bible (don't get me started on that), the Atheists would be thinking about practical ways to win, thus resulting in a better-prepared wage on the latter's half and an ensuing victory on their part.



Ah! But the Fundis have all the nukes!


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## JBroll (Mar 24, 2009)

Maybe, but the atheists know how to make better ones.

Jeff


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## TonalArchitect (Mar 24, 2009)

JBroll said:


> Maybe, but the atheists know how to make better ones.
> 
> Jeff



They might have qualms about using them, though, and debate their use instead of just declaring a crusade.


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 24, 2009)

yeah but only because they think about things for longer


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## Anthony (Mar 24, 2009)

This reminds me of Superman VS. Goku at this point.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 25, 2009)

Anthony said:


> This reminds me of Superman VS. Goku at this point.


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## sami (Mar 25, 2009)

Well, I will admit that I'm ignorant when it comes to the details of religion. I consider myself a hyprocrite as well.

For example, if I get in a major car crash, wake up upside down, the first thing I would probably say is, "please god xxxx xxx xxxx xxx xxx." But at the same time, I follow any sort of organized religion. I don't deny or accept his _(or her)_ existence.

I do believe there is some kind of higher power out there. It could be a being, it could be a force. I don't ask for proof, who am I to demand such a thing? I believe in the possibility of spirits. I think the first part of the zeitgeist movie has some interesting details while denying the propaganda it tries to convey.

I've got lots of questions but I have other things I consider more important like family, job, band, and basic necessities to keep those three in function.

I feel uncomfortable when I hear a _song_ that has any kind of degradation to god (Slayer, NIN, RATM, etc). I end up skipping just that song.

I don't like people forcing religions onto others who don't welcome it. I consider organized religion more of a direction for people until they learn themselves. Just like every race has their trash, every religion has their extremists (racial example: older lady that lives alone, never leaves the house except work/groceries, mostly plays hymns on her mini-organ when home).

What would you call me?


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

i honestly don't see why either side cares... atheist... christian... muslim... whatever... those r just labels... it's how u live ur life that really matters regardless of what it is u decide to call urself... thought i'd toss in my 2 pennies for what they're worth...



sami said:


> Well, I will admit that I'm ignorant when it comes to the details of religion. I consider myself a hyprocrite as well.
> 
> For example, if I get in a major car crash, wake up upside down, the first thing I would probably say is, "please god xxxx xxx xxxx xxx xxx." But at the same time, I follow any sort of organized religion. I don't deny or accept his _(or her)_ existence.
> 
> ...



i'd call u insightful despite ur alleged "ignorance"... ur ability to remain open-minded (IMO) makes u more wise than those that will claim one camp and defend it to the death w/ no proof (which we've already established is impossible to provide)... beliefs are just that... BELIEFS


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 25, 2009)

I guess what the threadstarter was trying to say is that it's rude for Christians to impose their beliefs on Atheists and vice versa. it's understandable that when one does it, it pisses the other one off quite a lot, and I'm guessing that both parties are only doing what they think is for the best but at the end of the day humans fail to realise one thing: we just don't know. everyone is a closet Agnostic.

it's also understandable that Christians and Muslims slaughtered each other during the crusades because the human race was primitive then, but I honestly think it should not be going on anymore. bigotry is no longer an option, fundamentalism is insanity, we are in the 21st century and no one on this planet bar none, and I mean NO ONE has an excuse to not to try and understand other people's beliefs. even if you don't try to understand them, you must ACCEPT that they are there. ignorance breeds hate, and just because you ignore something doesn't make it go away. I say we merge all of the worlds religions and non-religions into one belief: humankind. we are all humankind, and at the end of the day labels, beliefs and practises do not change us as people.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

^ha... this looks a lot like the thread we were just in hahahaha


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## sami (Mar 25, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> i honestly don't see why either side cares... atheist... christian... muslim... whatever... those r just labels... it's how u live ur life that really matters regardless of what it is u decide to call urself... thought i'd toss in my 2 pennies for what they're worth...



+1



Konfyouzd said:


> i'd call u insightful despite ur alleged "ignorance"... ur ability to remain open-minded (IMO) makes u more wise than those that will claim one camp and defend it to the death w/ no proof (which we've already established is impossible to provide)... beliefs are just that... BELIEFS



thanks mang!


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

^ u bet


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 25, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ u bet



Although I support your posts, could you start using the full "you" from now on? It's in the forum rules.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

oh wow... is it really? i actually didn't know that. sorry.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 25, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> oh wow... is it really? i actually didn't know that. sorry.



It's cool! Don't worry about it, bro.


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

Even if it weren't, it would be basic respect and etiquette. Posts like that are hard to read, and I personally skip right over them.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

well aren't we picky... i don't think anything i've written has been all that difficult to read... but since it's the rules and since it apparently bothers this guy so much i will again apologize... let it go...

and please... don't try to educate me on respect and etiquette as i haven't intentionally disrespected anyone (or at all for that matter as far as i know)...


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

I'm not pissed at you or anything like that, don't take it the wrong way. If you're not used to it (and as someone who avoids AIM and doesn't have text messages on his phone, I'm not used to it) it can be pretty confusing. I just scroll right past any post with 'u', 'ur', or anything along those lines because they take a separate 'translation' process and I *always* wind up misinterpreting them.

EDIT: You weren't directly disrespectful with the content of your post, but taking useless shortcuts that make things less readable isn't what I'd call polite - and I'm not alone there.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

JBroll said:


> I'm not pissed at you or anything like that, don't take it the wrong way. If you're not used to it (and as someone who avoids AIM and doesn't have text messages on his phone, I'm not used to it) it can be pretty confusing. I just scroll right past any post with 'u', 'ur', or anything along those lines because they take a separate 'translation' process and I *always* wind up misinterpreting them.
> 
> Jeff



gotcha... 

just found it to be a rather petty gripe being that the word "you" and the letter "u" are pronounced EXACTLY the same ( pointing out that it's in the rules is one thing ) and you clearly knew what i meant as you just mentioned having seen it before... but whatever... that's the last i'm saying about it as i now feel just as petty for having discussed it w/ you to this extent... 

**sorry to have derailed the thread w/ this simple-minded BS...


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

I just don't read posts out loud when browsing the forum, and 'textspeak' isn't fully integrated into my vocabulary... most pictures of cats with funny captions are lost on me, too, so it's not like I'm just picking on you because I feel like being annoying.

Anyway, going through what I think you were saying in your earlier post, I (and most atheists I'm around) would have no problem with people's religion if they didn't spend so much time trying to force it on me. Whatever crazy nonsense you believe in the privacy of your own home is none of my business, but when the country is being overrun by activists trying to make Christianity the *law* I get to be pissed.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

hmm... ok...

i've noticed that a lot of religions try to convert ppl... not just chirstians... 

on top of that i think that a lot of those ppl actually feel that they're doing you a service by showing you "the way"... 

whether you choose to accept it is your choice... you always have a choice... if you don't agree that's your business move on w/ your life...


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't have a problem with the occasional "So, yeah... there's this Jesus chap, and he's pretty cool. Want a pamphlet?" 

As long as they quit bothering me when I tell them I'm not interested, there's nothing wrong and I'm actually glad that people have the motivation to try to 'help' others, even if I think the way they're trying to 'help' is bonkers.

What I have a problem with is being of lower legal status than other religious groups, living under a government that pays more attention to people like John Hagee (who wants to support Israel in order to bring about the second coming of their messiah) than human rights, facing harassment and threats for being an atheist, and things like that. 

(Side note: at the same time I'm completely against anyone trying to force atheism on anyone.)

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

JBroll said:


> I don't have a problem with the occasional "So, yeah... there's this Jesus chap, and he's pretty cool. Want a pamphlet?"
> 
> As long as they quit bothering me when I tell them I'm not interested, there's nothing wrong and I'm actually glad that people have the motivation to try to 'help' others, even if I think the way they're trying to 'help' is bonkers.
> 
> ...



yea i see how that can be irritating... the problem is there MUST be a majority and a minority... unfortunately you, sir, are in the minority... i think that's just how the cookie crumbles...


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## MikeH (Mar 25, 2009)

Atheists seem to be growing into the majority. Or atleast an equaltine. The majority of people I know don't believe in a higher being.


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't mind being in the minority *at all*. That's not the problem. The problem is having inferior legal status in a country that supposedly doesn't stand for that sort of thing. The problem is having to face harassment and threats of violence, and - even better - being pretty much expected to *appreciate* that people are trying to 'help'. This isn't majority-vs-minority.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

i honestly think some people believe in God because they're told they're supposed to and that's the same thought process they try to pass on to others... 

others feel that something in their life has proven to them that whatever god/deity/what-have-you really and truly exists and they want you to see what they've seen or whatever... 

i mean these are the same kinds of things that happen when we have discussions in here about mahogany vs basswood...


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

Ibz_rg said:


> Atheists seem to be growing into the majority. Or atleast an equaltine. The majority of people I know don't believe in a higher being.



Come to Texas sometime.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

JBroll said:


> Come to Texas sometime.
> 
> Jeff



you're in texas???? no wonder you're so pissed off... didn't they implement the express lane to the electric chair???


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't remember, I haven't been up for murder in quite some time.

The bigger problem right now is that the state legislation is seriously considering a creation-based public school 'science' curriculum. Texas is great in a lot of ways, but Texans ruin it far too often.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

fun stuff...


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## sami (Mar 25, 2009)

Jeff speaks truth. (I'm also in texas)


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

i think i've heard something about that aren't a couple states talking about that? and putting those disclaimers on the front of science books and all that lame crap?



Ibz_rg said:


> Atheists seem to be growing into the majority. Or atleast an equaltine. The majority of people I know don't believe in a higher being.



i completely get what you're saying... at the same time... the "people you know" are hardly representative of the overall population


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## hairychris (Mar 25, 2009)

Ibz_rg said:


> Atheists seem to be growing into the majority. Or atleast an equaltine. The majority of people I know don't believe in a higher being.



Hm, you'll find that the majority of people in the majority of countries world wide believe in, well, some sort of religious nonsense.

Hell, you've even got the UN who're potentially going to make a binding resolution making criticizing religion illegal (as long as it complies with national laws, however it seems to contradict the UN's resolution on human rights).

Fuck that.


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 25, 2009)

Man, we should get some creationists/fundis in here so we can all duke it out.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 25, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Hm, you'll find that the majority of people in the majority of countries world wide believe in, well, some sort of religious nonsense.
> 
> Hell, you've even got the UN who're potentially going to make a binding resolution making criticizing religion illegal (as long as it complies with national laws, however it seems to contradict the UN's resolution on human rights).
> 
> Fuck that.



Fuck that indeed...


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## JBroll (Mar 25, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Man, we should get some creationists/fundis in here so we can all duke it out.



Without Flying Banana?

Jeff


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## ZeroSignal (Mar 25, 2009)

JBroll said:


> Without Flying Banana?
> 
> Jeff



Lest we forget...


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 26, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Hm, you'll find that the majority of people in the majority of countries world wide believe in, well, some sort of religious nonsense.
> 
> Hell, you've even got the UN who're potentially going to make a binding resolution making criticizing religion illegal (as long as it complies with national laws, however it seems to contradict the UN's resolution on human rights).
> 
> Fuck that.



fuck that indeed indeed


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## Naren (Mar 26, 2009)

Ibz_rg said:


> Atheists seem to be growing into the majority. Or atleast an equaltine. The majority of people I know don't believe in a higher being.



Really? Where? Most surveys in the US show that over 90&#37; of the population believes in a higher being (whether that be the Christian god, Muslim god, Jewish god, Hindu gods, god or gods from some smaller religion, or they don't believe in any particular religion but they believe that "something" is out there).

I personally find that kind of disturbing, but Atheists are FARRRRR from the majority. We are in the extreme minority.



hairychris said:


> Hm, you'll find that the majority of people in the majority of countries world wide believe in, well, some sort of religious nonsense.
> 
> Hell, you've even got the UN who're potentially going to make a binding resolution making criticizing religion illegal (as long as it complies with national laws, however it seems to contradict the UN's resolution on human rights).
> 
> Fuck that.



Ah, yes. If you look at the whole world, almost everyone believes in a religion and Atheists are almost a microscopic minority.  The US's over 90% believing in a higher being seems pretty small compared to a lot of other countries actually (and pretty big, I guess, compared to some European countries--or Japan, for example, where people are mostly agnostic with Buddhist and Shintoist traditions just mixed in for tradition's sake).


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## MikeH (Mar 26, 2009)

Maybe it's just that most of my friends have converted to atheism.


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## nosgulstic (Mar 29, 2009)

i dont really get the whole god thing, it doesn't make sense to me.


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## hairychris (Mar 30, 2009)

Ibz_rg said:


> Maybe it's just that most of my friends have *de*converted to atheism.



Fixed.


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 30, 2009)

deconverted isn't a word


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## JBroll (Mar 30, 2009)

Perhaps 'reverted' would be appropriate?

Jeff


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## Nick (Mar 30, 2009)

JBroll said:


> Without Flying Banana?
> 
> Jeff




i kind of miss the PM's that guy used to send me.


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## Bobo (Mar 31, 2009)

God is still Yngwie, right? Just checking.


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## Rachmaninoff (Mar 31, 2009)

Bobo said:


> God is still Yngwie, right? Just checking.


Just correcting: Yngwie is the "Fat God".
You better show some respect and a pizza.


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## hairychris (Apr 1, 2009)

Yngwie is the "Reclining Buddha of the Focking Fury" dontchaknow.



Scar Symmetry said:


> deconverted isn't a word



It's been used for years especially in relation to religious belief...

deconvert - Wiktionary


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 1, 2009)

but it's not in the English dictionary...


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 1, 2009)

wiktionary... wow... that's intense there's a wiki everything...


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## JBroll (Apr 1, 2009)

If you haven't checked out the Simple Wikipedia, do so now.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 1, 2009)

definitely have... that's like the first site that pops up any time you google ANYTHING


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## Bobo (Apr 1, 2009)

Rachmaninoff said:


> Just correcting: Yngwie is the "Fat God".
> You better show some respect and a pizza.



I bow before him and offer an oyster pizza. If he can eat that, he is truly a God.


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## The Atomic Ass (Apr 2, 2009)

sami said:


> I do believe there is some kind of higher power out there. It could be a being, it could be a force. I don't ask for proof, who am I to demand such a thing? I believe in the possibility of spirits. I think the first part of the zeitgeist movie has some interesting details while denying the propaganda it tries to convey.
> 
> I feel uncomfortable when I hear a _song_ that has any kind of degradation to god (Slayer, NIN, RATM, etc). I end up skipping just that song.



Have a read on Deism.

Also, avoid listening to Aeon. 



Konfyouzd said:


> definitely have... that's like the first site that pops up any time you google ANYTHING



Simple Wikipedia is different from normal Wikipedia. I think it's dumbed down to the lowest literate denominator.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 3, 2009)

Simple Wikipedia is awesome 

I went on their description of Elephants and it uses long words that 'Simple' peopl wouldn't understand, so I thought what was the point in that?


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