# Help me out here... Thursday's Israeli - Hezbollah conflict



## David (Jul 13, 2006)

who started it? From what I'm reading... it's showing that Israel started the major attacks with the double missile launch on that one building (which was empty but had the office of a major leader)... CNN reports that hezbollah rockets, have only killed one Israeli woman, yet inside Lebanon, "45 people and two soldiers have been killed inside Lebanon since Wednesday," and "Lebanon also said 103 people were hurt by the Israeli attacks, The Associated Press reported, while the IDF said 90 people had been injured by the rockets hitting Israel."


It sounds like Israel started it, and that the "terrorism" claim is bullshit... but... I am so confused right now, that I don't want to take a side until I know what is actually going on, and how these last 2 days of conflicts came to be.

So, if someone has a quick timeline or explanation, that would be great. 






EDIT: I found something about 2 soldiers a few days ago, and that seems to be what this is about? Didn't Israel deny a peace agreement over the release of one soldier a few days ago?


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## ajdath (Aug 1, 2006)

hi,
im an arab from JORDAN so i can tell you what exactly happened but before that you need to get short brief in history so you will understand what the hell is happening in the middle east.
1945 palestine was under the occupation of the british army like other arabic countries . the allies decided to give part of palestine to the europian jews to make land there for helping them with money against nazies,to get red of them as they were the most hated people in europe specially eastern europe , and to keep them as superior military power in the middle east something like unofficial base for the west. when the british army was giving the jews the weopons and the training , any arab caught with a knife was hanged . 
few revoloutions happened but they failed. jews kept comming by ships and getting trained and many of them were militants who fought in american,british...armies. mean while arabic countries where still under british/french ocupation so you can expect what armies and weopon they got .since then 5 wars happened between israel ( occupied palestine ) and arabic countries most of them won by israel for the superior air force and unlimited american support in the UN or in the field. now what this got to do with lebanon? israelies are jews and they believe in some kind of wiered jewsih mythologies mixed with jewdisim with other stuff , so they believe that the land that was giving to them by god was from iraq to eqypt!! thats what means the 2 blue lines in thier flag.in 1982 they ocupied south lebanon hizbulla was formed fought and in 2000 they forced israel to withdraw.israel felt so humilated and for 12 years were planing to clean the south from hizbulla , in the other side hizbulla still wants the lebanese prisoners israel is keeping hundreds there ( we still didnt mention the palestinins who are getting killed and kicked out of thier home land and how this effects people in the arabic /muslim world) in the name of terrorism every one fights back is called terrorist!! bush slaped all the UN resolotions that said that israel is occuping arabic countries doing mass murdering killing with no trials and every shitty thing you can imagine . it looked like calm but hizbulla still got small land occupied by israel since 30 years and prisoners since 25 years some of them.plus the bombing in gaza that cleaned complete familly with kids from the shores in hollyday so they kidnaped 2 soldiers and killed 8, israel didnt kill or fire back at hizbulla they bombed electrical generators killed civilians burned bridges and still no 1 fighter from hizbulla. tell today every battle hizbulla destroys from 3-5 tanks killes 3-10 special forces and israel fires back at civilians because they can tell the people that we are losing they wanna show them some killing and blood so the israelies will calm down. blood thirst. america ofcourse when the whole world said that israel made war crime by bombing house with its shelter that had 60 ppl and killed 37 children i saw the vedio america said its israel right to defend it self!!! now you know why arabs wanna eat bush and his goverment alive?not the american people. so in few words we are in 21 century but israel is doing to lebanes and palestinians exsactly what jews got from hitler maybe more and its worst cos its the longest worst occupation in the new history its since 1945!! so when you atch fox news and cnn and hear about terrorists and good israel defending it self remember what i wrote you. sorry for the long answer i just had to explain its soo complicated issue . by the way metal rulz


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## Drew (Aug 1, 2006)

I thought this'd been locked... 

Against my better interests I'm going to leave this open, as I'm guessing one of the mods opened it, but I'll say straight out that anyone who gets out of line is looking at a suspension as this is a VERY touchy subject right now. Zero tolerance. 

ajdath, while I'm not questioning most of what you say, arguing that the Israelis are doing exactly what Hitler did to them to the Lebanese is a little strong, don't you think? There's a differnce between a rocket attack a day and herding all of Lebanon into death factories and gassing them... 

*Anyway, keep this one civil. *


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## Scott (Aug 1, 2006)

Drew said:


> I thought this'd been locked...



Actually this one was never locked. People just did what they should have been doing all along...


...Ignoring David


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## ajdath (Aug 1, 2006)

Drew said:


> I thought this'd been locked...
> Against my better interests I'm going to leave this open, as I'm guessing one of the mods opened it, but I'll say straight out that anyone who gets out of line is looking at a suspension as this is a VERY touchy subject right now. Zero tolerance.
> ajdath, while I'm not questioning most of what you say, arguing that the Israelis are doing exactly what Hitler did to them to the Lebanese is a little strong, don't you think? There's a differnce between a rocket attack a day and herding all of Lebanon into death factories and gassing them...
> *Anyway, keep this one civil. *


no man its not strong, death is death by gas by fire by bombed house on the heads of children in the end its orginized death by system that called it self democratic!!. by the way the min im writing this quote, on the news not fox news ofcourse hizbulla in trap killed 15 special forces from israel in a battle and bombed 3 tanks . now israeli channel asked civilians from place called LITANII ( no not vaders album hehe ) to leave thier houses, by the way last time they forced ppl to leave houses and fled the hellicopters shot the fledding cars and killed women and children.maybe for some guys in the states its sooo shocking to hear sucha news because all the times in the media there hailing israel and showing how ugly people arabs there but in europe they got better focus on the actions here . so i wanted to say they believe and im not kidding or bullshitting its in thier books of the zionests. that god ( alloha ) created jews as his people nation of god , and the monkeys and pigs were turned to human to serve the jews , go read thier books if you dont believe me, then you will know why its easy to bombs house with 35 children the youngest is 8 months and the oldest is 13 years


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## Drew (Aug 1, 2006)

ajdath, there's a slight but profound difference between systematic genocide and waging warfare that doesn't get too worked up between the difference between a civilian and a military target. 

I've personally got some _huge_ reservations about what Israel is doing here and about how the States are backing them up, and I think the fact the UN hasn't intervened, imposed santcions, or officially condemned them as of yet is borderline disgraceful, but at the same time I'm not going to tolerate extremism on _any_ side here, ok? I'm about as anti-Israeli-nation as anyone on this board, so I'm not coming down on you because I disagree with you - I'm coming down on you because what you're saying is essentially flamebait with no other purpose than to piss off pro-Israeli supporters. Consider it a warning.


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## ajdath (Aug 1, 2006)

hi for any one specially from the states wanna know the hidden side of whats going on specially in the american media check the vedio there made by israelies them selfs and americans some of them jewish americans 


_EDIT - link deleted._


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## Drew (Aug 1, 2006)

Dude, I'm at work so I didn't watch, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that it's a video to civilians getting gunned down. I don't deny it's happening - even the american media is reporting death counts, and the majority of the 500 or so Lebanese dead have been civilians (as opposed to 17 of the israeli dead, as of Sunday) - but at the same time a guitar forum is *NO* place to post a video of civilians being brutally murdered. Seriously - I'm not suspending you because it could have been more innocent than I think it most likely is, but don't post that shit, no matter which side is doing it.


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## ajdath (Aug 1, 2006)

Drew said:


> Dude, I'm at work so I didn't watch, but I think it's a pretty safe bet that it's a video to civilians getting gunned down. I don't deny it's happening - even the american media is reporting death counts, and the majority of the 500 or so Lebanese dead have been civilians (as opposed to 17 of the israeli dead, as of Sunday) - but at the same time a guitar forum is *NO* place to post a video of civilians being brutally murdered. Seriously - I'm not suspending you because it could have been more innocent than I think it most likely is, but don't post that shit, no matter which side is doing it.


got that, but as far as i remember it has no shooting just people giving statments and reports something like bowling for colombine if you got what i mean, incase there was death scenes of bloody pics i apologize for posting it. even most of guys here are metal dudes used to sucha themes , and i posted this link because its political forum inside sevenstring right? or why would i write what i just wrote if the subject was 7 strings guitars ?? if you can watch it later and then decide if its forbidden or allowed to post it here


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## Drew (Aug 1, 2006)

I don't think a taste for metal means people like watching murder, exactly. Send me a PM with the link to the video, and I'll watch it either on my lunch break or at home tonight and if it contains nothing graphically offensive I'll edit it back in.


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## Drew (Aug 1, 2006)

UPDATE - I can't speak for the video since it never loaded, but the pictures of dead children that DID load were more than enough for me. 

Ajdath, post anything like that again and you're gone for good. For now, take a three-day breather, and think before you post when you come back.


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## maskofduality (Aug 1, 2006)

well to answer david if he hasn't been answered already, the basic gist is this. The Israelis are tired of having to share a border with Hezbollah and would rather share it with the Lebanese Army so they're bombarding the Hezbollan hideouts until Hezbollah leaves and the Lebanese takes over. 

However, my info on the thing is a little out of date as I haven't been following it for a couple of days. I know the UN eventually got involved and it wasn't pretty (for the UN anyway).


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## Mastodon (Aug 1, 2006)

Wow, that sure didn't take long.

I'm not getting the jist of it either.

We need Noodles in here to perform one of his awesome summarizations.


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## Metal Ken (Aug 1, 2006)

maskofduality said:


> well to answer david if he hasn't been answered already, the basic gist is this. The Israelis are tired of having to share a border with Hezbollah and would rather share it with the Lebanese Army so they're bombarding the Hezbollan hideouts until Hezbollah leaves and the Lebanese takes over.
> However, my info on the thing is a little out of date as I haven't been following it for a couple of days. I know the UN eventually got involved and it wasn't pretty (for the UN anyway).




They're kinda bombing the hell out of the whole country, dude lol


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## maskofduality (Aug 1, 2006)

i did say my info was a little out of date


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## Samer (Aug 2, 2006)

Its cool to see another arabic person here, whats up dude \m/

i think every one knows where i stand on this topic, i have nothing against Jewish people, or any civilian living in Isreal,

i just think everything the country stands for is wrong.


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## bostjan (Aug 2, 2006)

Man, I hate that civilians are being ruthlessly slaughtered in the crossfire. I feel bad for everyone. I'm not talking just on one side of the border, but I think we know where the most civilian casualties are. These factions driving this war are all acting very selfish. It upsets me a great deal.


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## David (Aug 2, 2006)

ajdath - exactly the thoughts that were in my mind. Thank you for confirming my thoughts. I have no idea why you are banned, but sometimes, you aren't allowed to speak the truth on online forums because it's one-sided. Freedom of Speech doesn't keep flames down, and I wouldn't be surprised if I get told to stop being a dick in this post...


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## bostjan (Aug 2, 2006)

I missed it, but looks to be something about dead babies on video or something.  Some aspects of the truth are best left said but unseen. But like I said, I didn't see it myself.

back on topic - anyone explained why the UN outpost was bombed yet? Seemed a little odd to me, but I have only heard what they said about it on CNN.


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## David (Aug 2, 2006)

I have no idea. I've been in a heavily sedated state this last week and I don't think I even came on the forums at all. I should catch up with what's been happening.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

bostjan said:


> I missed it, but looks to be something about dead babies on video or something.  Some aspects of the truth are best left said but unseen. But like I said, I didn't see it myself.
> back on topic - anyone explained why the UN outpost was bombed yet? Seemed a little odd to me, but I have only heard what they said about it on CNN.



There really wasn't an explanation for it. They said it was a mistake. I'm torn on that because Israel has very accurate weapons BUT no one has said if it was missile fire or tank fire. If it was tanks then it is more understandable as an accident. It just doesn't make sense for them to have done it intentionally. I know that is a lame excuse but it is the truth. It only hurts their cause. Listen, this isn't the first time UN workers have been killed in the line of fire. It has happened all over the world. They are in a war zone and things happen unfortunately. I was going to stay out of this forum but just couldn't help myself. Just to set the record straight. Until 9/11 Hizbollah had killed more americans than any other terrorist group. This is a fact. They are an enemy of the western world. They hide among civilians so when they are fired upon, there are always innocent people killed that they can hold up as propaganda and show the devestation that was caused. If they were so concerned about the Lebanese people, they wouldn't embed themselves so deeply within their population. Lets not forget how this thing started. Israel was attacked first. It seems like they are the only country in the world that has to have the world's approval before they can defend themselves.

BTW David..if you are still around. I think the big bombing you are talking about came a few days into the conflict. They dropped 22,000 lbs of explosives onto a building they knew to be a Hizbollah base. Of course they came out immediately and said it was only a Mosque, but later that was proven wrong. It started with border raids from Lebanon into Israel which killed several Israeli soldiers and 2 were kidnapped to hold for a prisioner swap.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

David said:


> I have no idea why you are banned, but sometimes, you aren't allowed to speak the truth on online forums because it's one-sided.



I gave him a three-day for posting pictures of dead children. 



Dive-Baum said:


> Until 9/11 Hizbollah had killed more americans than any other terrorist group. This is a fact.



Actually, that's pure speculation. There's never been a single confirmed attack on any American citizens by Hezbollah. Sure, that doens't mean it hasn't happened, but the only attacks that have been concretely traced to Hezbollah or that they've publically taken responsibilty for have been against the nation of Israel. In the absense of evidence, the strongest you can say is they've been alledged to have killed more americans than any other terrorist group. Again, this is a VERY touchy subject, and passing allegations off as facts isn't likely to make for a pleasant conversation.


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## David (Aug 2, 2006)

Drew said:


> I gave him a three-day for posting pictures of dead children.


gotchya...


and I should say, I'm in a particular assholish mood right now, and it's flickering on and off with a kid in a candy store. I should get some meds or something.


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## Chris (Aug 2, 2006)

David said:


> gotchya...
> and I should say, I'm in a particular assholish mood right now, and it's flickering on and off with a kid in a candy store. I should get some meds or something.



Do me a favor, then. Usually when you get in that kind of mood you tend to post some stupid shit here. Please don't. Just PM it to Shannon instead. 



David said:


> ajdath - exactly the thoughts that were in my mind. Thank you for confirming my thoughts. I have no idea why you are banned, but sometimes, you aren't allowed to speak the truth on online forums because it's one-sided. Freedom of Speech doesn't keep flames down, and I wouldn't be surprised if I get told to stop being a dick in this post...



A) Stop being a dick.
B) If you want to accuse the mod team of censorship/favoritism, be a man and come out and say it. Don't hint around like a pussy with this type of shit.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Chris said:


> B) If you want to accuse the mod team of censorship/favoritism, be a man and come out and say it. Don't hint around like a pussy with this type of shit.



...especially since I was the dude who suspended him, and you know as well as I do that my stance is I have some pretty big reservations with the actions of both sides of this conflict and I'm not about to suspend someone for not supporting the American pro-Israel stance.

...course, had you bothered to, you know, read further than the guy's first post, you might have worked that out on your own...


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## David (Aug 2, 2006)

Chris said:


> Do me a favor, then. Usually when you get in that kind of mood you tend to post some stupid shit here. Please don't. Just PM it to Shannon instead.


ah yes, I certainly have been known to do that. 



Chris said:


> A) Stop being a dick.
> B) If you want to accuse the mod team of censorship/favoritism, be a man and come out and say it. Don't hint around like a pussy with this type of shit.


A) yes I should
B) I've pm'd drew about it in another thread, how I thought that one side of a conflict is always censored because it's not favorable to a majority-based side. I didn't realize he was censoring the other side too. I don't want to open any old wounds there though...


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

David, I'm censoring ANYONE who's posting flame-bait, hateful rhetoric, or graphically objectional content, David. It's a touchy subject, and as a site we don't have the best track record for talking about it without going up in arms, so I'm checking this every couple hours and I'll just suspend anyone who crosses the line of decency, yourself included. It has nothing to do with which "side" of a debate you're on. 

And I don't recall ever getting that PM...


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

Drew said:


> Actually, that's pure speculation. There's never been a single confirmed attack on any American citizens by Hezbollah. Sure, that doens't mean it hasn't happened, but the only attacks that have been concretely traced to Hezbollah or that they've publically taken responsibilty for have been against the nation of Israel. In the absense of evidence, the strongest you can say is they've been alledged to have killed more americans than any other terrorist group. Again, this is a VERY touchy subject, and passing allegations off as facts isn't likely to make for a pleasant conversation.




Actually that is straight from the mouth of Oliver North.  I think he might know a thing or two more about this than we do. I realize this is a sensative topic..not many realize that more than me. And I believe I kept a very civil tone in my post.

David..honestly I think the majority on this site are speaking in favor of Lebanon and sympathizes with their current plight. I sympathize for them. It's not them that Israel is trying to fight. But I agree that they are paying the higher price. I could be wrong but I have been involved with every thread on this matter. I actually thought the flaming was kept to a minimum. Maybe I missed something.


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## David (Aug 2, 2006)

Drew said:


> David, I'm censoring ANYONE who's posting flame-bait, hateful rhetoric, or graphically objectional content, David. It's a touchy subject, and as a site we don't have the best track record for talking about it without going up in arms, so I'm checking this every couple hours and I'll just suspend anyone who crosses the line of decency, yourself included. It has nothing to do with which "side" of a debate you're on.
> And I don't recall ever getting that PM...





David said:


> B) I've pm'd drew about it in another thread, how I thought that one side of a conflict is always censored because it's not favorable to a majority-based side. *I didn't realize he was censoring the other side too*. I don't want to open any old wounds there though...




and the pm was at least a month ago. So I'm going way back.



Dive-Baum said:


> Actually that is straight from the mouth of Oliver North.  I think he might know a thing or two more about this than we do. I realize this is a sensative topic..not many realize that more than me. And I believe I kept a very civil tone in my post.


speaking of which, in another thread, I thought I kept it extremely civil, although a lot of my posts were chopped off. I was quite pissed because I didn't think I had offended anyone, and it took a lot of time to write out what I thought.

And I agree, that he knows quite a bit more, so he should be allowed to talk. The dead children pictures thing is crossing the line just hair... er... miles of hairs...


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

Well...now that I think about it...let me climb down off of my horse for a minute..I do remember getting pissed off about some things.

But, going back to my previous post..Oliver North was the head of counter terrorism in the mid 80's. I saw an interview with him on Fox News. He gave a talk about the history of Hizbollah.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Still though, we have no hard evidence Hezbollah has been behind a single attack on the United States. This is further complicated by the fact we're one of only six nations internationally that considers them a terrorist organization, and three of those six (The UK, Australia, and the Netherlands) only list the External Security Office of Hezbollah as a terrorist organization but consider the rest of the group a legitimate organization (the three who consider them terrorist in full are, not surprisingly, the US, Canada, and Israel). 

And let's be honest here, even aside from the fact he's now employed by Fox news Oliver North isn't exactly what I'd call a trustworthy source, regardless of what his exposure to terrorism might have been in the past.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

Well there is no arguing with opinion Drew. But you will agree that he would be a qualified source when it came to terrorism information? And I have a hard time believing that number of countries since the UN passed the resolution to get Hizbollah disarmed. Maybe they haven't labeled them a terrorist organization but, prior to this conflict, I just don't believe they were thought of as a non terrorist entity. They sprung up from the early 80's madness that was Lebanon. When the PLO was fighting for control and there were several armed factions occupying Lebanon. The PLO wsn't looked on as a terrorist group by everyone either. But I think even you would have to agree that they in fact were. Just because they win an election and change their name doesn't change who they are. Just like Hamaas did. They still are a group of terrorists.


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## Metal Ken (Aug 2, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> Well there is no arguing with opinion Drew. But you will agree that he would be a qualified source when it came to terrorism information?



regarding the period he was in office yes. Thats like assuming just cause donald rumsfeld is the Secretary of Defense, he's an honest man. Not so much. lol.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Do some research, Dive-Baum. I pulled this off Wikipedia, which is usually pretty good, but feel free to fact-check against other (neutral) resources, if you will. Six nations consider even only a part of Hezbollah a terrorist organization, and the EU has only labeled their director of intelligence as a terrorist thus far. 

Don't get me wrong - I think the case for labeling Hezbollah a terrorist organization in the broadest sense of the word is a bit weak, but I'm still in favor of their eventual disarmament as a condition of a peace treaty in the area (although NOT as one for a cease fire since that's far too much to accomplish in a short time period - I'm for immediate cessation of hostilities on both sides). 

Just for kicks, here would be my recommended course of action: 

-declare an immediate cease-fire in the region for a two-week period to buy enough time to either evacuate civilians and non-nationals who are caught in the crossfire in the event that subsequent peace talks fall through. 
-Place a large UN peacekeeping force into the contested Golon Heights area, and declare it a no fire zone with only the most restricted access to Israeli AND Hezbollah/Lebanese troops. 
-return the Golon Heights strip under contest to the Lebanese on the following conditions: 
---that it is held by a UN force for the first ten years, and that military troops from both countries are not allowed within the contested territories, 
---that as a condition the Hezbollah military wings are fully and completely disarmed.
---that Hezbollah and Lebanon submit to UN inspections for the subsequent 25 years to demonstrate their commitment to disarmament. 

Thoughts? From all Ive read, a good chunk of Hezbollah claims they would be content with merely the return of the Golon Heights and it's only a militant few who are bent on destruction of Israel as a whole. Meanwhile, Israel claims their conflict is with Hezbollah and not Lebanon, and a demilitarized Hezbollah would both strengthen the Lebanese state and go a long way towards appeasing Israel. While not likely to be a popular solution with either side, it would at least give both factions a large part of what they're fighting for while robbing them of two powerful incentives for further violence - the threat of Hezbollah to the North, and possession of a narrow strip of land that Lebanon has claimed was part of its nation and not Israel from the early days of the Israeli state. 

I'd be curious for feedback.

Oh, and for North, I'm not saying he hasn't seen his share of terrorism, just that he has a history of saying whatever he feels its expedient for him to say, so long as it furthers the interests of his government. We're talking about a guy who lied under oath - god only knows what liberties he'll take under Fox News.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

I hear you. But I'm sure he still gets briefings as well. When you get as high up as he did, you are never officially out of things. I just can't believe he would say something like that and not mean it. After all it was Hizbollah that bombed the Marine Baraks in Beruit. It doesn't seem like he would be going far out on a limb saying that they had killed more Americans than anyone prior to 9/11. I grew up with a distrust for him, just like you all did. I remember the Iran/Contra hearings as well. But him saying "I don't recall" is much different than making a declarative statement.

Edit::This was to Metal Ken...I'm working on you Drew


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> After all it was Hizbollah that bombed the Marine Baraks in Beruit.



Again, has that been concretely proven? My understanding is that it has not and that Hezbollah continues to deny involvement. We may believe they did, but we also "believe" Saddam Hussein was behiend the 9/11 attacks, you know?


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

1) I think Israel and Lebanon would be for a cease fire but Hizbollah has never kept the promise of a cease fire. 
2)I don't think placing the UN force in the Golan is the right place. Hizbollah is not there. They are in the south of Lebanon so a peace keeping force would do no good there, especially persuant to your other stipulation of disarming Hizbollah. 
3)We all know how well UN inspections go. After all..wasn't the south of Lebanon already occupied by UN observers? Alot of good they did. Hizbollah is stronger than ever thanks to Syria and Iran.

BTW if Israel gives the Golan back to Lebanon what exactly do you think will happen? The same thing that happened the day Gaza was turned over to the Palestinians...attacks from the grounds. The Golan is Israel's now. They aren't going to give it back. I have been there and you have an excelent view of towns and cities for hundreds of miles. This would give Israel's enemies, for which there are many, an excellent vantage point from which to attack


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> 1) I think Israel and Lebanon would be for a cease fire but Hizbollah has never kept the promise of a cease fire.
> 2)I don't think placing the UN force in the Golan is the right place. Hizbollah is not there. They are in the south of Lebanon so a peace keeping force would do no good there, especially persuant to your other stipulation of disarming Hizbollah.
> 3)We all know how well UN inspections go. After all..wasn't the south of Lebanon already occupied by UN observers? Alot of good they did. Hizbollah is stronger than ever thanks to Syria and Iran.



1.) If Hezbollah broke a cease-fire, they would solidify international opposition against them. I don't think it would be too tough to sell them on the fact it's n their best idea. 
2.) No, Hezbollah is not in the Golon Heights. Israel is. That's the ostentacious reason for this conflict. Arranging an eventual turnover to Lebanon would, provided Hezbollah is not lying, effectively appease them of all reason to fight. And if it turned out that Hezbollah was in fact lying, then they would have effectively renigged on the treaty and nullified their claim to the Golon Heights, again providing solid, non-circumstantial evidence that would solidify international opposition. 
3.) See #2. It's a little hard to miss rocket attacks anyway - harder than, say, missing a chemical weapons laboratory (which, as it turns out, they didn't, in Iraq). 

Keep objections coming, if you have any, but essentially this would put Hezbollah in a situation where they would have to make good on their stated claim that the narrow disputed portion of the Golon Heights was what they were fighting for, or face international multi-lateral repercussions. And if after regaining the Heights they continued to attack, well, even I couldn't object to a multinational military campaign to carpet-bomb most of Hezbollah-influenced Lebanon back to the stone age. Essentially, it'd either appease them or call their bluff. On your additional note - the theory here is that, if Lebanon/Hezbollah isn't lying, they will stop attacking when the Golon Heights are returned. And, if they are, then they've given the international community a bulletproof case to declare war. 

Also, as no military troops other than the UN would be allowed within the territory for the next 10 years and then it would be subject to UN peacekeeping forces policing and inspecting for another 15, any potential military action would be highly unlikely for at least a quarter of a century off.


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## Metal Ken (Aug 2, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> I hear you. But I'm sure he still gets briefings as well. When you get as high up as he did, you are never officially out of things. I just can't believe he would say something like that and not mean it.


The government says lots of things all the time and doesnt mean it. just look at all the propaganda surrounding the Iraq war. FIrst they had WMDs, Then they didnt then they did, and now they don't. Donald Rumsfeld said he knew exactly where they were and then a few months later he said no one knew where they were. THis dude is supposed to be the guy in charge of defense of our country and he cant even keep his story straight (There's clips all around of him saying he knew where the WMD's were on _Meet the Press_ And there's clips of the CIA guy asking him why he lied and then him saying he never said that as well.). 



> After all it was Hizbollah that bombed the Marine Baraks in Beruit. It doesn't seem like he would be going far out on a limb saying that they had killed more Americans than anyone prior to 9/11. I grew up with a distrust for him, just like you all did. I remember the Iran/Contra hearings as well. But him saying "I don't recall" is much different than making a declarative statement.
> Edit::This was to Metal Ken...I'm working on you Drew



Well, that was never proven to be them. They denied invovlement. Generally most terrorist groups come out and are like "PRAISE BE ALLAH! WE BOMB YOU! IF YOU DO NOT SUBMIT, WE BOMB YOU MORE!".


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## noodles (Aug 2, 2006)

Mastodon said:


> We need Noodles in here to perform one of his awesome summarizations.



Since I have been completely preoccupied with packing, moving, and unpacking, I haven't paid much attention to what is going on. However, I can give you an analogy.

<jumps in DeLorean, goes back to post-WWII>

Some guy named Winston, and another guy named Sam show up at my house.

"Hi, I'm Winston, and this is my buddy Harry. Our friend Samual got the shit kicked out of him in a pretty bad fight. Do you mind moving all your shit into the bedroom, because we're giving Sam the rest of the house."

"Fucking 'a right I mind, this is my house, you stupid Limey bastard!"

<Winston and Harry pull out guns>

"Sorry, mate, move it or lose it."

"Well, since you put it that way..."

<Winston and Harry leave. Sam turns on TV, raids fridge>

"Hey, you mind getting the fuck out of my fridge?"

"This is my fridge, go find your own."

"Dude, I *bought* that fridge, and all the food in it."

"Fuck off."

<large fight ensues>

Make sense, now?


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

noodles said:


> arguably the greatest post of the year



 Dude, that was sheer genius.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

1) I just don't believe that would be the case. I hope you are right.
2) Just for an example in the 1993 Peace Accords with the Palestinians, Arafat got almost everything he wanted. He then decided he wanted all of Jerusalem for the Palestinians. This way he could back out of the deal and not be the one who gave in to the Jews. This is how they think. Hizbollah would be no different. International opposition doesn't ever help Israel. look at the resolutions that have been passed against Israel in the past versus the number that have been for. It is overwhelmingly anti Israel. 
3) The UN observers in Lebanon saw the rockets going out in the begining and they didn't do anything. The UN passed a resolution and they didn't do anything. The world is not on the side of Israel and it never will be. 

Drew, I hope on every level you are right with the exception of handing the Golan back over. It won't happen. Just like the Palestinians, when they get what they want, they find other reasons to be mad and fight. It's just the way it is. When Israel was attacked in 1967, none of the disputed teritories were owned or occupied by Israel...What was the excuse then? The answer to that is the fact that they would not tollerate Jews living in their midst. The answer to all of these problems stems from that.

Also, the State of Israel was named the Jewish Homeland. I went there and I personally saw Jews, Christians and Muslims living and working in the same communities. So the whole idea about the Palestinians getting kicked off of their land is a load of crap. And if you want to get down to it...Israel was built by the Israelites..but of course they took it from the Caananites so I guess we need to track them down and settle their claim to it as well.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

1.) Seeing as, for at least 10 years, breaking a peace accord written in these terms would effectively be an attack against the UN, I'd say international opposition would be pretty substantial. 
2.) I would need to read into the specifics of the peace accord in 1993 to really speak on that in any greater depth, which I will do after work tonight. However, what Arafat does is in no way a sure-fire indication of what Hezbollah will - "how _they _think" is sort of a loaded phrase, don't you think? And my understanding is that the United Nations has sided with the Israelis with rather a good degree of frequency - at the very least, the UN was the body that sided with Israel and awarded them the Golon Heights in the initial conflict with Lebanon. I can't claim to be able to spout off a comprehensive list, but my understanding is that Israel does reasonably well for itself in the UN. 
3.) Again, there's a difference between an observer and a peacekeeping force authorized to attack if they see the treaty being violated. 
As for the war in 1967? Dude, hezbollah didn't even exist in 1967, they were first formed in 1982. Not only was the political situation very different (see Noodles' epic post), Hezbollah has a very specific stated goal (to lift from wikipedia again, "Three things comprise our minimal demand: an [Israeli] withdrawal from South Lebanon and the Western Bqa Valley, a withdrawal from the Golan, and the return of the Palestinian refugees." This statement dates from 1999, and they've since gotten two of the three minimum conditions.) Saying "Hezbollah will not tolerate Jews living in their midst" based on a war in 1967 over very different objectives is a complete distortion of the facts here, Dive-Baum. 

Returning the Golon Heights to Lebanon would meet all of the requirements of Hezbollah for peace, and Israel has said time and time again that their objective here is to demilitarize Hezbollah. If that's the case, while it's unquestionably a sacrifice for both sides, it's one worth declaring a cease-fire to discuss, I'd think.


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## noodles (Aug 2, 2006)

"Monkeys killing moneys killing monkeys over pieces of the ground...."

The history of that region reads like the part of the bible on lineage (Joe begot Dave begot Sam begot Frank begot Jim begot Mike begot...). Seriously.

Mesopotamians got their asses kicked by Sumerians got their asses kicked by Akkadians got their asses kicked by Guteans got their asses kicked by Assyrians got their asses kicked by Babylonians got their asses kicked by more Assyrians got their asses kicked by Persians got their asses kicked by Greeks got their asses kicked by...

I'm at the point where I don't give a damn what happens to who over there. I just want my country out of it. If we culd kill off some oil company execs, ram a new fuel source down the throats of Congress (their are plenty of viable options), and just right off that area forever.

Unfortunately, US presidents seem to be addicts, and the Middle East is the dealer.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

noodles said:


> Unfortunately, US presidents seem to be addicts, and the Middle East is the dealer.



Nah, just top investors. One and the same, functionally - they're not about to hurt the family business or their retirement portfolios, you know?


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## noodles (Aug 2, 2006)

When I conquor the planet and become Supreme Dictator for life, I shall task Shannon with slowly torturing every single oil company exec to death with a medley of music from American Idol.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

Well here are the resolutions against Israel through 1992
. Resolution 106: "... 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid"
2. Resolution 111: "...'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people"
3. Resolution 127: "...'recommends' Israel suspend its 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem"
4. Resolution 162: "...'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions"
5. Resolution 171: "...determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria"
6. Resolution 228: "...'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control"
7. Resolution 237: "...'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees"
8. Resolution 248: "... 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan"
9. Resolution 250: "... 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem"
10. Resolution 251: "... 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250"
11. Resolution 252: "...'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital"
12. Resolution 256: "... 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation""
13. Resolution 259: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation"
14. Resolution 262: "...'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport"
15. Resolution 265: "... 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan"
16. Resolution 267: "...'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem"
17. Resolution 270: "...'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon"
18. Resolution 271: "...'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem"
19. Resolution 279: "...'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon"
20. Resolution 280: "....'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon"
21. Resolution 285: "...'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon"
22. Resolution 298: "...'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem"
23. Resolution 313: "...'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon"
24. Resolution 316: "...'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon"
25. Resolution 317: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon"
26. Resolution 332: "...'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon"
27. Resolution 337: "...'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty"
28. Resolution 347: "...'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon"
29. Resolution 425: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
30. Resolution 427: "...'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon'
31. Resolution 444: "...'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces"
32. Resolution 446: "...'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
33. Resolution 450: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon"
34. Resolution 452: "...'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories"
35. Resolution 465: "...'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program"
36. Resolution 467: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon"
37. Resolution 468: "...'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return"
38. Resolution 469: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians" 39. Resolution 471: "... 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention"
40. Resolution 476: "... 'reiterates' that Israel's claims to Jerusalem are 'null and void'"
41. Resolution 478: "...'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'"
42. Resolution 484: "...'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors"
43. Resolution 487: "...'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility"
44. Resolution 497: "...'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescind its decision forthwith"
45. Resolution 498: "...'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon"
46. Resolution 501: "...'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops"
47. Resolution 509: "...'demands' that Israel withdraw its forces forthwith and unconditionally from Lebanon"
48. Resolution 515: "...'demands' that Israel lift its siege of Beirut and allow food supplies to be brought in"
49. Resolution 517: "...'censures' Israel for failing to obey UN resolutions and demands that Israel withdraw its forces from Lebanon"
50. Resolution 518: "...'demands' that Israel cooperate fully with UN forces in Lebanon"
51. Resolution 520: "...'condemns' Israel's attack into West Beirut"
52. Resolution 573: "...'condemns' Israel 'vigorously' for bombing Tunisia in attack on PLO headquarters
53. Resolution 587: "...'takes note' of previous calls on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon and urges all parties to withdraw"
54. Resolution 592: "...'strongly deplores' the killing of Palestinian students at Bir Zeit University by Israeli troops" 55. Resolution 605: "...'strongly deplores' Israel's policies and practices denying the human rights of Palestinians
56. Resolution 607: "...'calls' on Israel not to deport Palestinians and strongly requests it to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention
57. Resolution 608: "...'deeply regrets' that Israel has defied the United Nations and deported Palestinian civilians"
58. Resolution 636: "...'deeply regrets' Israeli deportation of Palestinian civilians
59. Resolution 641: "...'deplores' Israel's continuing deportation of Palestinians
60. Resolution 672: "...'condemns' Israel for violence against Palestinians at the Haram al-Sharif/Temple Mount
61. Resolution 673: "...'deplores' Israel's refusal to cooperate with the United Nations
62. Resolution 681: "...'deplores' Israel's resumption of the deportation of Palestinians
63. Resolution 694: "...'deplores' Israel's deportation of Palestinians and calls on it to ensure their safe and immediate return
64. Resolution 726: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of Palestinians
65. Resolution 799: "...'strongly condemns' Israel's deportation of 413 Palestinians and calls for their immediate return.



noodles said:


> When I conquor the planet and become Supreme Dictator for life, I shall task Shannon with slowly torturing every single oil company exec to death with a medley of music from American Idol.



I will be there helping. Did you see where Exxon had over $1B per day in revenue? That was the first time any American Company has done that. 
They posted over $10B in proffit for the quarter..all on the backs of the American people.


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> a lot of resolutions



Ok, I stand corrected, Israel gets censured more than it's supported by a ratio of perhaps 10:1, and it can be argued that they are measurably more likely to be censured than many of their peers in the middle east. It can be argued that many of those resulutions were justified, although I'd also argue that many of them should have been qualified with statements repremanding other involved parties as well, but whatever I'll give you that one. 

By my count, you still have two points and an additional comment at the bottom to go.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

I'm working on it Mr Impatient...I'[m trying to close some loans here


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## Drew (Aug 2, 2006)

Ditto here, with returns. And eating a burrito, because there's no way in hell I'm getting out before 7 or 8 tonight. :/


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 2, 2006)

I have completely lost my train of though...my brain is so fried after today...an no it didn't have anything to do with you Drew. I'll read back up after dinner and I get the brain juices going again. Although I am not sure I entirely disagree with you on certain points but am looking at them from a different prespective.


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## zimbloth (Aug 3, 2006)

I wish America would go after their enemies in this way instead of the halfassed disaster that has become of Iraq and Afghanistan. It's so hard to "win" when you're constantly worried about civilian casualties and trying to occupy the place with a depleted army devoid of resources. The way to defeat an enemy is to go in their country and pound them into oblivion. Bravo 

If only we did this kind of thing to Iran or legitimate threats instead of wasting time in Iraq, who were no threat to us and way better off with Hussein in power. Some people will just always be opposed to taking action no matter what the cause, so be it. Everyones entitled to their opinion. Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

Boo religion. Boo creepy foot doctor. _Hooray _beer.


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## Drew (Aug 3, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> I have completely lost my train of though...my brain is so fried after today...an no it didn't have anything to do with you Drew. I'll read back up after dinner and I get the brain juices going again. Although I am not sure I entirely disagree with you on certain points but am looking at them from a different prespective.



Aw, I thought my rugged good looks and boyish charm had won the day here.  

No worries, no time to reply today anyhow. Fuck it, let's call a 48 hour truce and take it up again on the weekend, just so I don't have a reason to log back in every 30 minutes.


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## noodles (Aug 3, 2006)

zimbloth said:


> Boo religion. Boo creepy foot doctor. _Hooray _beer.



Rep for you!


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## ajdath (Aug 4, 2006)

OK Drew you banned me even i told u to check the site then decide if its ok or not, since you checked and it had some EVIL pics you could just edit the link and problem is solved , banning me for what?? i didnt post the link again !!.
guys here talking about hizbulla and terrorism, people im not here just to be against israel , but even the jews them selfs are the biggest proof that israel is mistake. bringing people from all over the world and put them in already occupied country and then you tell them congrats you got your selfs a land make a country!!and for jews only!! and for arabs or natives who didnt escape they are 2nd degree citizens. this is fair? hizbulla didnt come from mars they are from south lebanon the south that was occupied by israel they formed this party to free thier land, hizb in arabic means party alla in arabic means god. gods party it means . plus hizbulla kidnaped soldiers why israel destroyed hald of lebanon??? why bombed civilians?? tell now hizbullah is winning battles showing pics and clips to prove his claims and israelies are just telling words that apears every day that short term lies to cover thier loses there. simply no matter whats the size of your arms and weopons you cant win if you dont have right to do what your doing . some one fighting for his land you cant call him terrorist , some one already got 10s of U.N resoloutions to do since 1967 cant ask lebanon to do one only right?? 

ps: drew i told you im not gonna die if you will ban me from this site so im not buying your threats , and im still offended for the ban because it was unfair.


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## Drew (Aug 4, 2006)

I suspended you for posting it publically in the first place, not for then sending it to me for approval. The only reason I didn't immediately suspend you was that I didn't look at the link until you sent it to me the second time.

I'm no more anti-Hezbollah than I am anti-Israel, but dude, we're talking _graphic_ pictures of dead 6-year olds. That shit does *NOT* belong on this board. It's not your politics that bother me - far from it. It's your way of expressing them.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 4, 2006)

Drew said:


> Aw, I thought my rugged good looks and boyish charm had won the day here.
> No worries, no time to reply today anyhow. Fuck it, let's call a 48 hour truce and take it up again on the weekend, just so I don't have a reason to log back in every 30 minutes.



 

I haven't had time to do any homework Bro. I'm not gonna bother responding to some others but you are ON my friend. Truce accepted....for now


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## Drew (Aug 4, 2006)

I'm gonna be out of town for a lot of the weekend, so take yer time.


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## ajdath (Aug 4, 2006)

Drew said:


> I suspended you for posting it publically in the first place, not for then sending it to me for approval. The only reason I didn't immediately suspend you was that I didn't look at the link until you sent it to me the second time.
> I'm no more anti-Hezbollah than I am anti-Israel, but dude, we're talking _graphic_ pictures of dead 6-year olds. That shit does *NOT* belong on this board. It's not your politics that bother me - far from it. It's your way of expressing them.


but you didnt think that im not the owner or moderator of that site so im not in charge of what data pics are added or skiped from thier site?? so its not my fault that they added pics i didnt see 2 weeks after i saw the film there! any way i didnt even scroll down i saw the first movie that apears then i switched the site, those pics they showed i see them almost daily on news. what ever, politics is the most fucked up issue after broken string and fuzzy distortion sound


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## Drew (Aug 4, 2006)

ajdath said:


> but you didnt think that im not the owner or moderator of that site so im not in charge of what data pics are added or skiped from thier site?? so its not my fault that they added pics i didnt see 2 weeks after i saw the film there! any way i didnt even scroll down i saw the first movie that apears then i switched the site, those pics they showed i see them almost daily on news. what ever, politics is the most fucked up issue after broken string and fuzzy distortion sound




adjath, you're ultimately responsible for any content you post here. As you yourself said, you don't particularly care if you get banned or not, so what's the big deal? You posted a link to graphic images that should under NO condition be posted here, I gave you a three day. It's pretty open and shut. 

It's not like I have a problem with you personally, it's just that crap doesn't belong here, and I don't want to look at the bloody carcases of little children for ANY reason, much less when they're being used for politcal leverage. Drop it.


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## ajdath (Aug 4, 2006)

again im repeating i didnt put the pics to use them to back up my politics they happened to be in that site even i meant to show the documentary there not the images.i apologized directly that time for any images that offended or hurted others here this is why it became big deall to me the ban thats all


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 4, 2006)

Can't we all just get along?? I personally am tired of the whole thing. I haven't been able to go back to Israel in 10 years because of this crap. My Uncle has a condo overlooking the Med in Netanya and I personally miss it. 
I think what is going on sucks but I don't think it will ever be resolved. This is an old fight of two idealogical, religous people. There is peopaganda everywhere. Both sides have had innocents die.

Hey ajdath..I noticed the Mad Arab under your screen name. Are you referencing the one in the Necronomicon or just using it in general?


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## ajdath (Aug 4, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> Can't we all just get along?? I personally am tired of the whole thing. I haven't been able to go back to Israel in 10 years because of this crap. My Uncle has a condo overlooking the Med in Netanya and I personally miss it.
> I think what is going on sucks but I don't think it will ever be resolved. This is an old fight of two idealogical, religous people. There is peopaganda everywhere. Both sides have had innocents die.
> Hey ajdath..I noticed the Mad Arab under your screen name. Are you referencing the one in the Necronomicon or just using it in general?


half necronomicon half me being mad, ever heared of death metal guitarest not being mad? about the topic yes the whole thing sucks,but the main question was whos fault? we got nothing against jews, actually when the arabic kingdoms fell under the spanish rule after 800 years of arabic reign in spain the catholics killed un catholics including jews so they fled to the islamic empire and lived 500 years in arabic countries equal citizens then in 2nd world war mad ass hole called bengorion who is not even a believer but used religion to achieve his goals took an agreement with the lord belfor for the right of making jewish state for all the jews in the world in palestine since then the problems started never been jewish/arab conflict its just zionests from all over the world who wanna take arabic lands . till now there are arabic jews in yemen, morroco tunisia iraq syria i bought from jewish craftsman in syria he is happy and working this goldsmith thing since 200 years with his familly in syria


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## David (Aug 5, 2006)

this thread is highly educational for me, thanks all.


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## Plaschkes (Aug 5, 2006)

I wrote a pretty long massage and then accidently closed the window.  

I'm too tired to write it again right now...


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## David (Aug 5, 2006)

Plaschkes said:


> I wrote a pretty long massage and then accidently closed the window.
> I'm too tired to write it again right now...


I hate when that happens!


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## Samer (Aug 5, 2006)

ajdath said:


> half necronomicon half me being mad, ever heared of death metal guitarest not being mad? about the topic yes the whole thing sucks,but the main question was whos fault? we got nothing against jews, actually when the arabic kingdoms fell under the spanish rule after 800 years of arabic reign in spain the catholics killed un catholics including jews so they fled to the islamic empire and lived 500 years in arabic countries equal citizens then in 2nd world war mad ass hole called bengorion who is not even a believer but used religion to achieve his goals took an agreement with the lord belfor for the right of making jewish state for all the jews in the world in palestine since then the problems started never been jewish/arab conflict its just zionests from all over the world who wanna take arabic lands . till now there are arabic jews in yemen, morroco tunisia iraq syria i bought from jewish craftsman in syria he is happy and working this goldsmith thing since 200 years with his familly in syria



Thats true, i think zionsim is what causes so much anti semitism is the world, The modern jewish youth are lead to believe that judaism is a race and not just a religion by the zionists.


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## Metal Ken (Aug 5, 2006)

Samer said:


> Thats true, i think zionsim is what causes so much anti semitism is the world, The modern jewish youth are lead to believe that judaism is a race and not just a religion by the zionists.




The problem with the Zionist attitude is that its basically saying "Thats our land because OUR god said so".


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## Cancer (Aug 5, 2006)

^^^^^^^^Proof again that many wars on our cute little planet would dry up and blow away were it not for the "God"-word.

To a religion free planet.....(raises glass).


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 6, 2006)

Samer said:


> Thats true, i think zionsim is what causes so much anti semitism is the world, The modern jewish youth are lead to believe that judaism is a race and not just a religion by the zionists.




That might hold water were it not for the fact that Jews have been persecuted and killed for thousands of years around the world and the Zionist movement is basically a 20th century movement. And no we are never led to believe we are a race of people. Always a religion. At this point I would ask you keep you comments to things you actually know. By your same logic I could say that all young Muslims are taught to hate all Jews and Americans..but that wouldn't be true. Every religion has it's radicals but they don't speak for the group as a whole.


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## Plaschkes (Aug 6, 2006)

Samer said:


> The modern jewish youth are lead to believe that judaism is a race and not just a religion by the zionists.



I Belive i fall under "modern jewish youth", and your claim is quite simply not true. as Dive-Baum said, we do not see ourself as a race, but a religion, and so does the educational system.

But, since you brought it up, whenever i think about people that look at jews as a race, the first thing that comes to mind are the Nazis, which were (and still are) set out to destroy jews as a religion, but also as a race, with specific rules about who is a jew according to their parants and their bloodline, not according to their belief.


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## ajdath (Aug 6, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> That might hold water were it not for the fact that Jews have been persecuted and killed for thousands of years around the world and the Zionist movement is basically a 20th century movement. And no we are never led to believe we are a race of people. Always a religion. At this point I would ask you keep you comments to things you actually know. By your same logic I could say that all young Muslims are taught to hate all Jews and Americans..but that wouldn't be true. Every religion has it's radicals but they don't speak for the group as a whole.


no man it apears your not as educated about this subject as i thought. if you learned something about islam you will see its considers it self as the 3rd message of god after jewdisem and christianity.so muslim must believe in moses and his book and jesus and his book and prophets angels ...etc that were mentioned so we are not taught to hate jews or christians and again i repeat that if what your saying was true why we would save them from the reign of fernando and isabela in the 15th century? something else how are we suposed to hate americans if there are 4milion americans from arabic origins ?? i didnt count the american muslims. i have big familly in L.A and TEXAS i wont hate them or agree on an attack that will hurt them or even my non arabic american friends, what your talking about is arabs against bush adminstration like milions of americans who protests against him , its arabs against zionests who are doing organized killing in palestine against the palestinians not against jews or why jews still living in arabic countries till now? you took 100% of palestine then after 4 decades of killing you offered arafat 10% and you told him this is our nice offer and this offer didnt even accept the return of milions of refuges who fled thier lands after the attacks of the israeli gangs , yeah gangs according to the british law then.shamir was wanted to the british goverment there yes or no?? stop repeating none sence that muslims hates us they wanna kill us in all protests in arabic countries or islamic did you read on signs kill the american nation or just burning pics of bush and israeli leaders?? 

ps: earlier i said bingorion, i meant theodor hertzel


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## bostjan (Aug 6, 2006)

Every religious group has persecuted every other religious group ever since there has been more than one religion. It merely helps unify these groups stronger and cause more violence against more other religious groups.


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## ajdath (Aug 6, 2006)

bostjan said:


> Every religious group has persecuted every other religious group ever since there has been more than one religion. It merely helps unify these groups stronger and cause more violence against more other religious groups.


i agree totaly man , but when you take some ones land you will take the open minds with you and the extremests will combine with the tolerants into local resistance, and this is what explains the full support hizbulla and hamas are having from christian arabs muslims sunnis and shia athiests socialists....its matter of honor. land occupied no time for religion and sucha things all for the land if you know what i mean .


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## Toshiro (Aug 6, 2006)

Drew said:


> And let's be honest here, even aside from the fact he's now employed by Fox news Oliver North isn't exactly what I'd call a trustworthy source, regardless of what his exposure to terrorism might have been in the past.


_
"That's be 2 million, 300 thousand dollars for these weapons, would you like fries with this order?"_


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 7, 2006)

ajdath said:


> i agree totaly man , but when you take some ones land you will take the open minds with you and the extremests will combine with the tolerants into local resistance, and this is what explains the full support hizbulla and hamas are having from christian arabs muslims sunnis and shia athiests socialists....its matter of honor. land occupied no time for religion and sucha things all for the land if you know what i mean .



Yes, but then you go and remember why that land was taken in the first place..an attack on Israel and all the surrounding countries got their asses kicked in 1967. No they have been boo hooing about it for the las 40 years. Hmmm...OK so every major country in the region decides to attack Israel on the most Holy day in the Hebrew Calandar and to their utter shock everyone gets beaten by the tiny nation. Then they get little pieces of land taken so they can't attack again as easily, then bitch about it and use it as an excuse to blow up busses full of civilians. Sound about right?


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## Drew (Aug 7, 2006)

Easy, everyone.


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## ajdath (Aug 7, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> Yes, but then you go and remember why that land was taken in the first place..an attack on Israel and all the surrounding countries got their asses kicked in 1967. No they have been boo hooing about it for the las 40 years. Hmmm...OK so every major country in the region decides to attack Israel on the most Holy day in the Hebrew Calandar and to their utter shock everyone gets beaten by the tiny nation. Then they get little pieces of land taken so they can't attack again as easily, then bitch about it and use it as an excuse to blow up busses full of civilians. Sound about right?


what israel man?? nothing is called israel ist occupied palestine!!! you tell the lie and then you believe it?? you and your grandfathers came from all over the world by british permision and made your self a country on palestine and then you blame arabs for attacking you???? i never heared such rude answer . you people have no shame really.and by the way all our history in the past we ve been attacked or occupied by other powers but sooner or later we kicked them and got our land back,if you think you will stay forever there then stay stoned in your own world . and every one knows that israel supported by america britain france...etc your nuclear technology given by france , air force by america .....etc since 1 month you cant defeat hizbullah and you begged usa for laser gided bombs and you got it but still yesterday hizbulla fried 12 soldiers and what did israel do??? bombed another 40 civilians BRAVO israel your the symbol of bravery 

and bombing busses of civilians you poor jew, remeber how many civilians you killed with thier kids since 1948 till today. israelies are cowards man you like it or not. since 1948 your killing torturing stealing lands of palestinians but they are still there and they wont give up . if your thinking its cowboy and red indian your wrong. you bombed civilians you get your civilians bombed, eye for an eye its from your tora


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## distressed_romeo (Aug 7, 2006)

^ I predict another ban for Adjath and the closure of this thread within a week or so.

Jesus Christ, let's go back to talking about guitars!!!!


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## ajdath (Aug 7, 2006)

let them ban me but i wont shut up, they stole land and wanna convince every one how poor they are because they got land not for them israel got hundreds of nuclear missiles this tiny small country hes saying tiny country with hundreds of nuclear rockets?? tiny country with 100% american support they got the 4th biggest air force tiny country with biggest land force in middle east tiny country every citizen in israel is soldier or was asoldier or stand by soldier??? and all of this militery power used against civilians or poor people in camps ,refuges then he says we are tiny country but we defeated the evil ones, are you watching lord of the rings alot man??? in 1948 no media no internet and europe still wanna get red of jews there and feeling guilty of hitler as if no one died by nazies except jews, 6 milion gypsie , how many russians?? you israeli boy tell me how many russians died . poles?? french ???any one saw how warsaw looked like?? end of the war only jews died since then no one can say no to spoiled israel because he will be bad and nazie and anti scemetic. believe it or not they are not even a race mixture of everything with jewish religion in the other hand we arabs are race the reall scemetic people but when an arab says israel killed civilians in palestine they should stop the american support for that the jews says this is antiscemtism its became like very bad joke . and this is how they survived on lies and fooling around and having the onl nuclear power in middle east but keep telling every one we are poor we weak we are few lots of arabs attacking us


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## ajdath (Aug 7, 2006)

if they banned they wont be able to see my new 7 strings custom guitar hehe and its gonna be hot guitar guys maghon,neck-thru , new design , full tremolo bridge , sexy head , nice islamic geometric as inlay on the 11,12,13th fret ,24 frets,palisander fretboard.2 merlin pups 3 way switch . you know what i will post the last pic i got of the making of the guitar so you can see it maybe it will cool the thread a bit


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## Drew (Aug 7, 2006)

ajdath said:


> what israel man?? nothing is called israel ist occupied palestine!!! you tell the lie and then you believe it?? you and your grandfathers came from all over the world by british permision and made your self a country on palestine and then you blame arabs for attacking you???? i never heared such rude answer . you people have no shame really.and by the way all our history in the past we ve been attacked or occupied by other powers but sooner or later we kicked them and got our land back,if you think you will stay forever there then stay stoned in your own world . and every one knows that israel supported by america britain france...etc your nuclear technology given by france , air force by america .....etc since 1 month you cant defeat hizbullah and you begged usa for laser gided bombs and you got it but still yesterday hizbulla fried 12 soldiers and what did israel do??? bombed another 40 civilians BRAVO israel your the symbol of bravery
> 
> and bombing busses of civilians you poor jew, remeber how many civilians you killed with thier kids since 1948 till today. israelies are cowards man you like it or not. since 1948 your killing torturing stealing lands of palestinians but they are still there and they wont give up . if your thinking its cowboy and red indian your wrong. you bombed civilians you get your civilians bombed, eye for an eye its from your tora
> 
> let them ban me but i wont shut up, they stole land and wanna convince every one how poor they are because they got land not for them israel got hundreds of nuclear missiles this tiny small country hes saying tiny country with hundreds of nuclear rockets?? tiny country with 100% american support they got the 4th biggest air force tiny country with biggest land force in middle east tiny country every citizen in israel is soldier or was asoldier or stand by soldier??? and all of this militery power used against civilians or poor people in camps ,refuges then he says we are tiny country but we defeated the evil ones, are you watching lord of the rings alot man??? in 1948 no media no internet and europe still wanna get red of jews there and feeling guilty of hitler as if no one died by nazies except jews, 6 milion gypsie , how many russians?? you israeli boy tell me how many russians died . poles?? french ???any one saw how warsaw looked like?? end of the war only jews died since then no one can say no to spoiled israel because he will be bad and nazie and anti scemetic. believe it or not they are not even a race mixture of everything with jewish religion in the other hand we arabs are race the reall scemetic people but when an arab says israel killed civilians in palestine they should stop the american support for that the jews says this is antiscemtism its became like very bad joke . and this is how they survived on lies and fooling around and having the onl nuclear power in middle east but keep telling every one we are poor we weak we are few lots of arabs attacking us



Whoah, HOLD UP there, buddy. No one's questioning your right to have opinions or anything, and in fact I welcome a voice on the other side of the debate here, but jesus fucking christ man, you're being WAY too hostile here. If you want to talk politics here, that's cool, but keep it POLITE. You're being an asshole. Consider this a very firm warning - keep posting in that tone and attacking other members like that you WILL get yourself a two week suspension. This as nothing to do with your politics - I have some pretty big issues wityh Zionism too - but we have some forum rules in place that dictate how we interact with each other, and you're in violation of a whole bunch of them. Cool it. 

Dive-Baum, watch your tone too - keep it polite and civilized. You're only borderline, but let's try not to even push it that close, ok?



ajdath said:


> if they banned they wont be able to see my new 7 strings custom guitar hehe


Oh, and word of advice - don't threaten us.


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## ajdath (Aug 7, 2006)

Drew said:


> Whoah, HOLD UP there, buddy. No one's questioning your right to have opinions or anything, and in fact I welcome a voice on the other side of the debate here, but jesus fucking christ man, you're being WAY too hostile here. If you want to talk politics here, that's cool, but keep it POLITE. You're being an asshole. Consider this a very firm warning - keep posting in that tone and attacking other members like that you WILL get yourself a two week suspension. This as nothing to do with your politics - I have some pretty big issues wityh Zionism too - but we have some forum rules in place that dictate how we interact with each other, and you're in violation of a whole bunch of them. Cool it.
> Dive-Baum, watch your tone too - keep it polite and civilized. You're only borderline, but let's try not to even push it that close, ok?
> Oh, and word of advice - don't threaten us.


man you dont threat me , i wasnt hostile to any one i was angry that he wanna fool every one and twist the truth so stop playing gandalf the wise . wanna bann me go a head , and when i said you wont see my guitar it was supposed to be a joke but as usuall Drew knows everything even what in the hearts


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## The Dark Wolf (Aug 7, 2006)

ajdath said:


> man you dont threat me , i wasnt hostile to any one i was angry that he wanna fool every one and twist the truth so stop playing gandalf the wise . wanna bann me go a head , and when i said you wont see my guitar it was supposed to be a joke but as usuall Drew knows everything even what in the hearts


Way to get a thread locked and yourself banned, dude. 

*shrug* There's my . I say, do what ya gotta do, Drew or Chris. Your cuddly Wolf supports you. That kinda tone isn't really for here, I think.


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## Drew (Aug 7, 2006)

ajdath said:


> man you dont threat me , i wasnt hostile to any one i was angry that he wanna fool every one and twist the truth so stop playing gandalf the wise . *wanna bann me go a head *, and when i said you wont see my guitar it was supposed to be a joke but as usuall Drew knows everything even what in the hearts




Well, if you're going to twist my arm, you've been an asshole to another member throughout your last three or four posts and then when I ask you to treat the guy with respect, you act like an asshole towards me, so, sure, what the fuck, I think I can find it in my heart to give you a two-week. 

I don't care if you're joking or not, nor do I particularly care if I think you're trying to threaten us or not. I DO care how you act towards other members on this board. Enjoy your vacation.


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## Dive-Baum (Aug 7, 2006)

Let me be the first to say that we should not do any more of these threads. 
There is no convincing anyone against their beliefs on this topic. I am a Zionist...there I said it. Muslims think they have every right to completely own Israel..Athiests think we are all stupid...I think that sums it up...


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## Drew (Aug 7, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> Athiests think we are all stupid...I think that sums it up...



Makes the athiests look awfully bright, no?


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## Metal Ken (Aug 7, 2006)

Dive-Baum said:


> Let me be the first to say that we should not do any more of these threads.


 


> There is no convincing anyone against their beliefs on this topic. I am a Zionist...there I said it. Muslims think they have every right to completely own Israel..Athiests think we are all stupid...I think that sums it up...


well, i think noodle's badass summary summarizes up the situation quite nicely. 

I'm just gonna close this now to prevent any more rage.


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