# Why there isn't a female Steve Vai?



## DredFul (Mar 10, 2015)

First of all I would like to state that since this is a delicate subject that affects our society today I am deeply sorry if I happen to offend anyone. That is not my intention so ,should it happen, it probably is because of my lacking skills in english(I'm pretty sure that I just used the word 'should' wrong) or that I was unable to express myself clearly enough.

So:

Earlier I was discussing about gender roles with a friend. After that I remembered this one thread where the conversation drifted to pondering sexism in metal. I also vaguely remember that this one person was saying something along the lines of "we don't have a female Steve Vai because women can't play that well". After that another one said that it's probably because there so few women playing guitar compared to men and also that women might be discriminated also here and how it could be easier for a man to be seen as a "guitar god".

I agree with the other dude. I think there just aren't as many female guitarists as there are male. I base my opinion on experience, I know many guys who play guitar but maybe only one or two girls. I think girls are guided more towards instruments like piano, violin and flute, maybe by parents, maybe by society, and boys towards "rock" instruments.

Also I remembered reading this:







If I know anything about Skervesen it is that they've made loads of instruments but just now had their first female customer? I'm assuming that about the same percentage of men and women are interested in buying custom instruments, so could this show how few women are playing at all? Also a woman makes about what, $0.70 to every $1 a man makes?


So my point is that "women just can't play that well" is absolute garbage and the reason we don't have a female Steve Vai is that there just aren't enough female guitarists around for a few to pop up due to their skill.

Also Sarah Longfield? Anyone?

Again I'm apologizing for any irritation I may cause. If it happened, please enlighten me about what I did wrong so I can express myself better in the future.


Any thoughts about the topic? I don't mean to make this into a thread about all the things where we have issues regarding genders but I felt like writing this to kind of think aloud, if you will.


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## asher (Mar 10, 2015)

I'm honestly just not sure if we can get any new mileage out of the topic, really.


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## DredFul (Mar 10, 2015)

asher said:


> I'm honestly just not sure if we can get any new mileage out of the topic, really.



I do agree. I should have tried to come up with an answer to the problem rather than just ranting about it. But I guess raising awareness is also a good thing?


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## TedEH (Mar 10, 2015)

DredFul said:


> I'm assuming



And that's the entire argument in a nutshell. Everyone making wild assumptions with no way to back any of it up. Maybe it's true that there are less women interested in buying custom instruments- personal experience would suggest to me that maybe that really is the case. But my personal/conversational experience is not representative of a whole market. If someone from a well known custom shop told me that 90% of their buyers are male, I'd believe that, because I have no reason not to- but again, one company doesn't represent a whole market. And a lack of sales doesn't mean a lack of interest.

Does that mean women suck at playing guitar? Of course not.


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## canuck brian (Mar 10, 2015)

There is a female Steve Vai. Her name is Jennifer Batten. She destroys faces.

Here's her on tour with Michael Jackson in probably the height of his popularity.


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## UnderTheSign (Mar 10, 2015)

I remember when there was a thread on the youtube guitar lady. The majority of the responses were either comments on her chest size or the assumption that her breasts were the only reason she got e-famous. That's exactly the reason we can't have nice things.


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## DredFul (Mar 10, 2015)

UnderTheSign said:


> I remember when there was a thread on the youtube guitar lady. The majority of the responses were either comments on her chest size or the assumption that her breasts were the only reason she got e-famous. That's exactly the reason we can't have nice things.



I agree. It also makes me sick that females who do anything on the internet(not to mention in real life) need to disable comments because of all the inappropriate comments. Many people should realize that you can't say everything even on internet. One other thing more awareness should be spread about.

I'm also pretty sad because I follow Sarah on facebook and she seems like such an awesome person but she has posted that she receives quite many messages that are just straight up harrasment.


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## flint757 (Mar 10, 2015)

Well, check the first response in that screen grab. "OMG she's hot hurr durr". There's absolutely nothing she could actually do to prevent that either since it isn't like she's wearing a bikini in that picture. She's dressed completely normal.

That isn't an exclusively male or female problem or even something exclusive to metal since pop music has the same issues (Beyonce's, Rihanna, etc. judged on looks and Bieber, Timberlake, etc. same), but the issue really stems from the fact that metal attracts a lot of men making the whole situation really unbalanced. There's nothing inherently wrong with finding someone attractive or even expressing that you do, but when people start to attempt to discredit ones abilities or success due to gender and looks it becomes a problem. I mean what does it even mean to say "she's only famous because she's hot" in the guitar community when there are plenty of average looking awful guitar players who actually make great music. That pretty much sums up the entirety of the 90's grunge scene. You don't have to be Vai to write good music or be a descent guitar player, so it isn't like girls need to be virtuoso's to be taken seriously.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 10, 2015)

I'm a wanky, female guitar player who pulls weird faces, I just don't have a whammy bar.


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## Chokey Chicken (Mar 10, 2015)

Youtube has a handful of women who can shred pretty god damn well. In my experience, female metal musicians are relatively few and far between. In recent years though I've been seeing more and more, which I think is great. .... gender roles. A guy should be able to bake pretty cupcakes while wearing the cutest little pink apron without being belittled/mocked the same way a woman should be able to melt faces with shredtastic solos and scream without being reduced to nothing more than "that sexy set of tits that does man stuff therefore she's cool."

There is also the fact that, like flint sort of said, you don't need to be able to shred to write good music. Less is more to me personally, and I hate senseless solos/wanking. To hell with boring sweep arpeggios, write a god damn melody.


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## Mprinsje (Mar 10, 2015)

Can we not do this discussion? It's been done to death (not long ago here actually) and it always ends with name-calling and general shit vibes all around.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Mar 10, 2015)

MISOGYNYMISOGYNYMISOGYNYMISOGYNY GAVE ME CANCER


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## Grand Moff Tim (Mar 10, 2015)

Because Steve is a boy's name.


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## asher (Mar 10, 2015)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Because Steve is a boy's name.



... Stev_ie_ Vai, then?


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## Obsidian Soul (Mar 10, 2015)

asher said:


> ... Stev_ie_ Vai, then?


Steph Vai?


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## naw38 (Mar 10, 2015)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> MISOGYNYMISOGYNYMISOGYNYMISOGYNY GAVE ME CANCER



That kinda sounds like feminist AxCx lyrics. 

There is Orianthi - I mean, she did do a song with Vai, and didn't he produce her album or tour with her or something? Unfortunately, if you look her up on youtube a lot of her videos aren't amazing shred tests, but average acoustic pop music. If I remember correctly.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 10, 2015)

naw38 said:


> That kinda sounds like feminist AxCx lyrics.
> 
> There is Orianthi - I mean, she did do a song with Vai, and didn't he produce her album or tour with her or something? Unfortunately, if you look her up on youtube a lot of her videos aren't amazing shred tests, but aSaverage acoustic pop music. If I remember correctly.



Save for this one:



I quite enjoy her phrasing, and she also played with Michael Jackson before he passed away I believe.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 10, 2015)

Lori Linstruth was dope... But I heard she quit guitar... That was silly... Cuz she was awesome... I used to watch her lessons and learned some really cool stuff...


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## TRENCHLORD (Mar 10, 2015)

Alice AKW said:


> Save for this one:
> 
> 
> 
> I quite enjoy her phrasing, and she also played with Michael Jackson before he passed away I believe.





And she's hot!!!! 


@OP
There is Steve's wife ya know, the real Mrs. Steve Vai. (surely she can play something)


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## naw38 (Mar 10, 2015)

Alice AKW said:


> Save for this one:
> 
> 
> 
> I quite enjoy her phrasing, and she also played with Michael Jackson before he passed away I believe.




Yeah, that's the song I was talking about initially. And yeah, I think MJ gifted her some super gaudy mega sparkle PRS. I want one.


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## Discoqueen (Mar 10, 2015)

Alice AKW said:


> Save for this one:
> 
> 
> 
> I quite enjoy her phrasing, and she also played with Michael Jackson before he passed away I believe.




Is Orianthi the tall one in the flares? Jk 

I've not met too many girls that play guitar, which is a shame!for sure.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 10, 2015)

TRENCHLORD said:


> And she's hot!!!!
> 
> 
> @OP
> There is Steve's wife ya know, the real Mrs. Steve Vai. (surely she can play something)



She was on his album The Story of Light I'm pretty sure...


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## TRENCHLORD (Mar 10, 2015)

Can't forget these girls either.
Sometimes I really wish I was an upper-horn!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz9VyggeSbA


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 10, 2015)

But seriously... That Jackson she's playing is amazing... Want...


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## TRENCHLORD (Mar 10, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> But seriously... That Jackson she's playing is amazing... Want...



Yeah, me too. That black pick-guard slays with the green .


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 10, 2015)

If I ever get a Jackson CS it'll be a 7 string version of that me thinks...


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## Hollowway (Mar 11, 2015)

I'm not sure this is really even a topic. There aren't nearly as many girls who play virtuosic electric guitar. If you want to see girls playing Paganini type stuff, you'll have to look for violin players. But the question in this thread is like asking why there aren't more male hairstylists or female video gamers or why girls like pink and guys like cars. The different genders are, on average, attracted to some things in different numbers.


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## ROAR (Mar 11, 2015)

Music isn't a competition, it's just vibrations in the air you dig or don't.
I dig Emily Remler's music and playing a lot more than Steve Vai,
so an idea of a female counterpart to him seems asinine.


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## Preciousyetvicious (Mar 11, 2015)

I posted a longer response to this earlier, but due to using an iPhone and drinking 4 beers, I posted it to the wrong thread. Whoops!

The abridged version...we *all* need to turn a blind eye towards gender. Period.

If we are to ask ourselves is why there isn't a female Steve Vai, we may as well ask ourselves why there isn't a male Steve Vai clone. At the end of the day, it does not matter what a great musician is born with, or not born with. What we should look for and judge by is what each player has to offer in what we _hear_, not see.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Mar 11, 2015)

TRENCHLORD said:


> @OP
> There is Steve's wife ya know, the real Mrs. Steve Vai. (surely she can play something)


 
Pia Vai (Maiocco) played bass with Vixen during 1984-86. 

And she played (one chord) keyboards here:



And played harp here:


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## wilch (Mar 11, 2015)

Might have something to do with the digit ratio?

Most males have a low ratio (index finger is shorter than the ring finger) due to increased exposure to testosterone in the womb, where females have a high ratio (index finger longer than the ring finger, sometimes the same length).

Maybe certain guitar techniques are physically easier with a low digit ratio?

That said there are some amazing female guitarists.


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## Slunk Dragon (Mar 11, 2015)

Because of why there isn't any female Bill Gates, or a female Michael Jordan: It will always devolve into OH GOLLY GOSH GEE WHIZ, HOW GOOD IS SHE AT THE SECKS, AND LET'S GRADE HER ON A SCALE OF BEATEN WITH AN UGLY STICK TO PORN STAR!!!


It's because the playing field isn't equal for both genders.


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## Hachetjoel (Mar 11, 2015)

^ that is not why there is no female Michael Jordan. Males are typically taller and are proven to have a higher lung capacity by around 25% and have more capability for endurance which is what basketball is all about. Let's not go turning this into a social justice warrior thread.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 11, 2015)

Female musicians can get exposure and attention much easier than guys but they have to work a LOT harder to be taken seriously.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 11, 2015)

^I will agree with this. It seems a lot of folks are "Oh she's just a nice pair of tits." or "OH DAYUM THAT'S A NICE PAIR OF TITS"

Listen with your ears, not your eyes, regardless of who's playing.


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## Abaddon9112 (Mar 11, 2015)

I mean, I really have no idea whether there are actually fewer female guitarists, fewer virtuoso-level female guitarists, or a lack of recognition for female guitarists due to bias and sexism. Maybe some combination of all of them? Dunno. 

But...I always found it strange how there are so many female bass players in well known bands by comparison. I'm a 6' 200lb man, I have a 34" scale bass, and I've been playing it for ten years, just as long as guitar. And you know what? It's fvckin huge. I'm looking for a short scale for standard tuning now because they're way more comfortable to play and wear. 

But I see a lot of lady bassists with pretty average female statures ripping the things up. Tal Wilkenfield, Nadja Peulen, the girl from Smashing Pumpkins, Kim Gordon (I guess she's kinda tall), Chela Rhea Harper, Lori Temple who used to be in Melvins, just off the top of my head. And I know there are way more. 

But basses are so damn big. I would think guitar would be way more appealing for smaller people in general. A lot of male virtuoso guitar players are even pretty short. Its strange.

EDIT: Could it be a social phenomenon, because basses are a "subordinate" role in a band? I wouldn't doubt that that might have something to do with it. But I dunno enough to say. It's very peculiar though.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 11, 2015)

Well, it MIGHT be the idea of "Oh bass is easy and no one cares about it anyway, the girl can do that."

I like to put more faith in humanity than things like that being so common, though. Maybe I'm just an optimist, but a lot of the "Suppressive" behaviour and stigmas towards women might just be absent habits and tradition from a bygone time.


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## Abaddon9112 (Mar 11, 2015)

Yeah, a lot of crazy things people still do are just cultural habits. 

Humans are better than that crap in the long run. Old habits die hard.


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## Chokey Chicken (Mar 11, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> I'm not sure this is really even a topic. There aren't nearly as many girls who play virtuosic electric guitar. If you want to see girls playing Paganini type stuff, you'll have to look for violin players. But the question in this thread is like asking why there aren't more male hairstylists or female video gamers or why girls like pink and guys like cars. The different genders are, on average, attracted to some things in different numbers.



It's sort of an instilled thing though. Gender roles, as it were. Guys are supposed to like blue. Girls are supposed to like pink. Guys like cars, girls like shoes. Guys play metal electric guitar, women play sing songy acoustic pop.

In recent years it's becoming much more common for people to just be comfortable doing whatever they like. People are just realizing that it doesn't really matter what floats your boat and to just do it. We're still at the point where we're rising out of that "GUYS ARE MACHO, WOMEN ARE DELICATE" thing, so there obviously aren't as many women doing man things and vice versa, but it's getting there. I even go so far as to say that "girl gamers" as an "uncommon oddity" are now pretty damn common. 

Every game store in my area employs several women. Take it for what you will, but they're just as average looking as the male workers, and they know just as much. They're not playing the "hot chick" card or anything, but that's going a bit off the thread's topic.

TL;DR People are getting more comfortable with being themselves within the past decade. Guys and girls (and any in betweens, as gender equality/gay rights has been catching quite a bit of traction lately) are all just doing what makes them happy. I'm sure in ten more years we'll see more well known female metal artists, among other things. That's how it should be. Life's too short to be scared of being judged for doing something you love.


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## ferret (Mar 11, 2015)

Boys liking blue, girls liking pink, is a construct of cultural marketing from the last 100 years. It's not gender, it's culture.







This is a President. FDR, in fact. Because a mere 100 years ago, most kids wore dresses until 4-6 years old regardless of being a boy or girl. Similarly, pink was a boy's color back then. It began to be associated with girls around 1930 I believe.

A lot of what people hold as being "girlish" or "boyish" wasn't the case as much as 50 years ago. It's a constantly shifting cultural/environmental target.

This of course doesn't apply to every stereotype. Some like men being macho are much much older and longer trends, but still culturally based as they don't apply to every place on Earth, and as Chokey mentioned, are also shifting.

Edit: P.s. my daughter is militant lover of orange. Pink can go to hell.


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## Edika (Mar 11, 2015)

Why is it in that Orianthi video that they have two full stacks and not even a wireless in the output just to maintain the illusion? Everybody knows of course that they're not recording the sound or even playing the song with an amp on for the video, as well as having a cable would hinder them from moving around and stop Vai from doing twirls but what's the point of the amps then? To emphasize the rockness of the piece? We can hear that.

Anyway there are several causes based on gender perception and social/cultural environment which I assume have been discussed to death here. I'll just go with the percentage of people liking rock/metal, the percentage of them being women, then the desire to play and/or talent in instrument, the desire to be the best in that instrument and become a professional player. In the way things are now the percentage of women is low. And honestly with the sexist treatment most of them are met with I'm not surprised if some of them are deterred away.

Personally I hope my daughter likes the electric guitar when she is older and is right handed. Like so, for really selfish reasons, I can claim any guitar I buy she will inherit and her mother won't object as much.


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## vilk (Mar 11, 2015)

I'll believe a girl is good at guitar when she's kind of ugly


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## Abaddon9112 (Mar 11, 2015)

^ I'm sure you're joking a bit. But ugly's all pretty relative. I think Kim Gordon is attractive and she's almost 60. And a lot of people dig her. But most wouldn't think she's a hot young rock vixen or whatever. 

I think the novelty of women in rock bands just makes a lot of guys irrationally horny lol. I mean, we've all heard teenage girls fawn over boy bands..same thing. There's a whole world of men in bands that girls find attractive. And comparatively few girls in bands, period. So guys just go, like, DAYUM, DAT A$$ in totally over the top and inappropriate ways when a woman plays in a rock band and rips it up. If more girls played in rock bands, it might not be such a big deal. But its a very complex and convoluted issue.


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## asher (Mar 11, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> more male hairstylists or female video gamers



Minorish niggle, but it's actually *very* close to 50/50 these days.


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## canuck brian (Mar 11, 2015)

On of my favorite bands, which has been going for 3 decades, has one of the most badassed bass players.


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## TedEH (Mar 11, 2015)

Alice AKW said:


> Well, it MIGHT be the idea of "Oh bass is easy and no one cares about it anyway, the girl can do that."



As a bassist, I hate to say this, but it's much easier to play "passable" bass than to play a passable level of guitar. I'd be lying if I said I haven't come across a few women who picked up bass because it was clearly the shortest route to joining a band.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> It's sort of an instilled thing though. Gender roles, as it were. Guys are supposed to like blue. Girls are supposed to like pink. Guys like cars, girls like shoes. Guys play metal electric guitar, women play sing songy acoustic pop.
> 
> In recent years it's becoming much more common for people to just be comfortable doing whatever they like. People are just realizing that it doesn't really matter what floats your boat and to just do it. We're still at the point where we're rising out of that "GUYS ARE MACHO, WOMEN ARE DELICATE" thing, so there obviously aren't as many women doing man things and vice versa, but it's getting there. I even go so far as to say that "girl gamers" as an "uncommon oddity" are now pretty damn common.
> 
> ...



Yea the problem I think is men a lot of the time. My local game store employed a shit load of chicks... None of them stay though and I bet it's similar to the reason a lot of them don't stick around on internet forums based around topics that are traditionally male dominated.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 11, 2015)

TedEH said:


> As a bassist, I hate to say this, but it's much easier to play "passable" bass than to play a passable level of guitar. I'd be lying if I said I haven't come across a few women who picked up bass because it was clearly the shortest route to joining a band.



Oh I agree, and it's a lot of the reason I try to make sure the bass doesn't get buried and forgotten in my music.


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## Kwert (Mar 11, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> On of my favorite bands, which has been going for 3 decades, has one of the most badassed bass players.




Jo Bench and Bolt Thrower are ....ing legends.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 11, 2015)

Alice AKW said:


> ^I will agree with this. It seems a lot of folks are "Oh she's just a nice pair of tits." or "OH DAYUM THAT'S A NICE PAIR OF TITS"
> 
> Listen with your ears, not your eyes, regardless of who's playing.



Yea but they do the same things to dudes sometimes... Ever watch a Youtube video only to see some dude rippin' it up and some kid that doesn't like that style of music says some shit like "You look like a fag,bro..." and makes fun of his haircut or something dumb... 

I mean at some point we have to stop letting the things that ppl have to say about us deter us from being what we wanna be. It kinda seems to me more like what others have said where women are actually steered toward other things...

And with that in mind... Being that they're steered toward other stuff, they honestly may not even be given the opportunity to TRY to do certain things that are considered "boy stuff"... Maybe it's their parents' fault to some extent as well.

I cook... I play guitar... I'm always under the hood of my car... I used to do my ex gf's hair... I know how to sew... 

What does that make me? It doesn't fvckin' matter...

Liking the things I like and doing the things I do--at least the things I just mentioned--have absolutely nothing to do with my gender. In my life they're just things that need to be done. The mileage of others will inevitably vary regardless of gender.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 11, 2015)

Oh I agree a hundred percent. It is up to every individual to dress how they wish and present as they wish. I'm a gal and I show less skin most the time than most guys I know. As I say always, gender identity, sexuality, and gender are all on independent sliding scales. A straight male can wear a dress just like a straight gal can wear a leather studded jacket and camo pants. 

My main point is, none of this appearance stuff should matter unless you go out of your way to integrate it into your art.


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## Chokey Chicken (Mar 11, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Yea but they do the same things to dudes sometimes... Ever watch a Youtube video only to see some dude rippin' it up and some kid that doesn't like that style of music says some shit like "You look like a fag,bro..." and makes fun of his haircut or something dumb...
> 
> I mean at some point we have to stop letting the things that ppl have to say about us deter us from being what we wanna be. It kinda seems to me more like what others have said where women are actually steered toward other things...
> 
> ...



I can't speak for everyone, but it's a little more complex than that from my experience. It's one thing to be picked on by jealous nitpicking internet folks, and another thing to be physically picked on irl. People just make me uncomfortable and I've only played a couple live shows because of it. Too many people approached me just to hit on me, and I'd been groped too. It's sort of hard to really get into something with those types of experiences. For now I just record music with my friends, mostly for myself. I can see these types of experiences just outright deterring people from sticking with it.

Otherwise I think you're pretty much spot on.


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## canuck brian (Mar 11, 2015)

Kwert said:


> Jo Bench and Bolt Thrower are ....ing legends.



I've been a fan of that band since i was 14 (so 23 years ago) and I *finally* get to see them live locally the day before my birthday.


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## tedtan (Mar 11, 2015)

We can rule out a lack playing ability as a reason that there aren't more women in metal, as all we have to do is look outside rock and metal and into classical, jazz, flamenco, etc. to see plenty of women ripping it up. And even within the rock and metal world, there are several women that tear it up (like Jennifer Batten mentioned above). So the question is really "why aren't there more women playing rock and metal?"

And while many of the things associated with gender roles are cultural rather than innate (like the pink/blue preference mentioned above), there are some innate differences, too. In observing my cousins, nieces, nephews, etc., I've noticed that, on the whole, the boys tend to be more aggressive and more violent when playing than the girls, and they tend to enjoy the violent aspects of cartoons and movies moreso than the girls do. So we can extend that observation to say that perhaps the aggressive, sometimes even violent, nature of metal music tends to be more attractive to men than to women. I don't pretend that that will fully explain the situation, but it does deserve a closer look as one of the causal factors in the situation.




Konfyouzd said:


> I cook... I play guitar... I'm always under the hood of my car... I used to do my ex gf's hair... I know how to sew...
> 
> What does that make me?



A bachelor.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> I can't speak for everyone, but it's a little more complex than that from my experience. It's one thing to be picked on by jealous nitpicking internet folks, and another thing to be physically picked on irl. People just make me uncomfortable and I've only played a couple live shows because of it. Too many people approached me just to hit on me, and I'd been groped too. It's sort of hard to really get into something with those types of experiences. For now I just record music with my friends, mostly for myself. I can see these types of experiences just outright deterring people from sticking with it.
> 
> Otherwise I think you're pretty much spot on.


Yea thanks for providing some insight there. I'm not sure that's a perspective I could have otherwise understood having never "walked that mile" so to speak. 

 @ tedtan 

See that's what I think but I've been called things like "housewife" by women for whatever reason bc I do these things... 

... or...

"Isn't it usually women that do ___???"

So what if it is? 

At the end of the day, though, that's still easier to deal with than ppl sexually assaulting you... It's amazing what people assume others will find acceptable.


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## Chokey Chicken (Mar 11, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Yea thanks for providing some insight there. I'm not sure that's a perspective I could have otherwise understood having never "walked that mile" so to speak.
> 
> @ tedtan
> 
> ...



Cooking is an especially good talent to have too. Doesn't matter how mocked you are, when you're between girlfriends and/or when your girl is away for whatever reason, (or if she happens to be an awful cook/dislikes cooking.) you can eat bomb ass food instead of bummy boxed garbage.


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 11, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Cooking is an especially good talent to have too. Doesn't matter how mocked you are, when you're between girlfriends and/or when your girl is away for whatever reason, (or if she happens to be an awful cook/dislikes cooking.) you can eat bomb ass food instead of bummy boxed garbage.


My reasoning exactly.


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## BlackMastodon (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm pleasantly surprised that this thread has actually stayed on the rails and didn't devolve into a pile of shit like the last time.  

I view guitar wankery and shredding as a bit of a pissing/dick measuring contest so maybe women just don't quite care about it as much as guys do and don't bother with it?


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## metaldoggie (Mar 12, 2015)

Just want to add my 
Always been a huge Jennifer Batten fan.

Also just discovered Irene Ketikidi Welcome to Irene Ketikidi!

Definitely an up and coming shredder.


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## canuck brian (Mar 12, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Cooking is an especially good talent to have too. Doesn't matter how mocked you are, when you're between girlfriends and/or when your girl is away for whatever reason, (or if she happens to be an awful cook/dislikes cooking.) you can eat bomb ass food instead of bummy boxed garbage.



I think I've been lucky in that the girls i date are pretty keen on eating healthy and clean instead of boxed shit and take out food.

Knowing how to cook (and more than throwing stuff in a pan) is an awesome skill to have. I've never heard of a woman mocking a guy because he knows how to cook...


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## Konfyouzd (Mar 12, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> I think I've been lucky in that the girls i date are pretty keen on eating healthy and clean instead of boxed shit and take out food.
> 
> Knowing how to cook (and more than throwing stuff in a pan) is an awesome skill to have. I've never heard of a woman mocking a guy because he knows how to cook...



Then maybe I should move to Canada.


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## EvA (Mar 12, 2015)

I've been playing for about 10 years and over that time I've had my fair share of idiotic comments thrown at me Things like "you're going to go places" and "you're the most amazingest guitarist everz" just because I played the most basic sweep arpeggio. I even had some guy recently say to me "you've got magic fingers" which was made even more disturbing upon finding out he was head of the swingers party that is apparently held nightly above our practice room  (no lie).
I Guess what I'm saying is that it is hard to tell if what is being said sometimes is honest or not, if someone is saying that what I'm playing sounds good just because they have other intentions. 
Like most people I like feedback on my playing to help me progress and now I tend to lean towards listening to negative feedback as I feel I can trust that more if that makes sense 
I also hide away a lot for this reason, try not to show my gender online (apart from on here) and purposely don't post up YouTube stuff. I know I'm not the only female that does this and that might be another reason as to why there aren't as many recognised female metal guitarists out there.


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## vilk (Mar 12, 2015)

^I don't see how that wouldn't just apply to every aspect of your life, even and especially outside of guitars. Sometimes even I don't know if I'm being honest to a girl or not because she pumps my blood, so I don't see how you ever should be.



Cooking for myself isn't worth the effort it takes. The amount of effort it takes is not reflected in how much I enjoy eating food, in general. Even if I were a good cook, how tasty the food is couldn't come close to how little I care to prepare and clean. It's not that I super duper hate preparing and cleaning--rather I just don't get that much out of food. Usually.

And even though it might seem totally counter to my previous point, sometimes I wonder/worry?/think that one of the larger [than it should be] reasons I like my girlfriend is because she's good at cooking (and likes to eat) the exact kind of food I like to eat. I don't think in 5 years we've had even one argument as pertaining to what or where to eat. Sometimes I forget that it's even a thing people would be concerned with until I see other couples debating, sometimes even bitterly, over what restaurant to go to. With us it's more like, "You wanna have ____?" -- "Holy F__ that's exactly what I want right now how did you know"


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## canuck brian (Mar 13, 2015)

Konfyouzd said:


> Then maybe I should move to Canada.



I have more than enough crash space. 

Aside from the occasional day that the air hurts your face, it's nice up here. Also - very high ratio of metalhead women to metalhead men.


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## redstone (Mar 13, 2015)

A highly creative woman is not likely to be influenced by her education and social pressure, just being creative the way she wants. But people rarely invest themselves if there are no chances to be recognized, nobody to surprise, no challenge to win. Could Steve Vai become Steve Vai if he was born 20 years later, or sooner, or in another country ? Just ask Paco Hernandez why he still never recorded an album.. and so many others. 

The fact that so few SteveVais become famous is the perfect illustration of how creativity is just a little part of a social equation made of anticreative criterions that will only allow from time to time some geniuses to do their jobs.

Now if the question was "why there isn't more second-rate female shredders", let's be honest, that's because most second-rate shredders have just bought a guitar out of cultural conditioning (men buy guitars women buy clothes etc).

However there's no such excuse as sexism for being a bad musician when you have enough money to buy a proper instrument. If your occidental girlfriend is not a bedroom guitargod, it's her fault, just saying.


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## TedEH (Mar 13, 2015)

redstone said:


> A highly creative woman is not likely to be influenced by her education and social pressure



Social pressures influence everyone, whether you're creative or not. You even said it yourself- "creativity" on it's own is not the deciding factor regarding skill level, potential, recognition, etc.

I've said it before in other threads, in other contexts, but it still stands here: People don't evaluate anything at face value- and that includes other people. It doesn't matter how good you are at guitar, you will be judged one way or another by everything you put out there, your looks, your character, your race and sex and all of that stuff, how well you spell, who you surround yourself with, what brands of gear you use, etc., and all of that stuff is subject to social pressure, and each of those things influences your opinions of all of the other things.

Like if you can't spell on the internet, nobody will take you seriously even if the point you're trying to make is genius. Or, to bring it back around to the topic at hand, nobody will be able to fairly evaluate your guitar playing if they're too distracted by being attracted to you. Is that fair? Of course not.

But none of those things are


redstone said:


> her fault, just saying.


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## redstone (Mar 14, 2015)

TedEH said:


> Social pressures influence everyone, whether you're creative or not.



However creativity abstracts oneself from a part of that influence : The part that can divert someone from being creative. Productivity being the other part. Musicians can lose the motivation to be productive due to many oppressive external factors but being a bad musician (assuming that you can practice it) is internal.

An occidental 16yo kid who doesn't buy a guitar to play some nerdy music due to social pressure... has not the necessary creative potential to make something unique, so he/she couldn't become Steve Vai anyway.


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## Defi (Mar 14, 2015)

because steve is a dumb name for a girl


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## Gothic Headhunter (Mar 14, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> A guy should be able to bake pretty cupcakes while wearing the cutest little pink apron without being belittled/mocked



I will make fun of that literally every single time, even if the cupcakes are amazing. I mean, I'd be thankful, but still 

OT: Jo Bench is awesome. I routinely listen to Bolt Thrower while lifting/running and I give absolutely no fvcks that the one holding down the low end in my testosterone-filled mix is a girl.

So, why isn't there a female Steve Vai? Because Zappa never had a female guitarist


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## Alice AKW (Mar 14, 2015)

Gothic Headhunter said:


> I will make fun of that literally every single time, even if the cupcakes are amazing. I mean, I'd be thankful, but still



Come now, some guys can pull a cute apron off bettetr than any girl i've ever met.


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## shadowlife (Mar 14, 2015)

Anyone who thinks there isn't a female equivalent of Steve Vai just needs to look a little harder.

Classical:



Jazz: (RIP Emily!)



Rock:



Metal:



I rest my case your Honor....


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## Gothic Headhunter (Mar 15, 2015)

I think the point is none of those girls are as famous as Steve Vai


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## Explorer (Mar 16, 2015)

Kudos to Canuck Brian for bringing up Jennifer Batten in the first place, but this next comment nails it. 



UnderTheSign said:


> I remember when there was a thread on the youtube guitar lady. The majority of the responses were either comments on her chest size or the assumption that her breasts were the only reason she got e-famous. That's exactly the reason we can't have nice things.



SS.org is different from a lot of forums in bringing down the ban hammer on stupid sexist chit. Beyond forums, the real world just lets it run rampant. 

I have a friend who knows all about gear, and who used to be a manager at Guitar Center, but now occasionally fills in at a local shop. People come in all the time and ask if someone can help with an amp or guitar.

"I can help!"

"I mean, someone who knows about them."

Because she is just over 5 feet tall and female, they automatically dismiss her. When everyone else says she's the best person, the sexist guys walk out rather than take advice from a small female. 



flint757 said:


> ...(T)he issue really stems from the fact that metal attracts a lot of men making the whole situation really unbalanced.



I know a *lot* of female metal musicians, and even more female metal fans.

They don't themselves out there because a lot of men act like arseholes towards them. 

I can't fault them. Who wants to be around when someone starts derping like this?



TRENCHLORD said:


> Sometimes I really wish I was an upper-horn!!!



----



Konfyouzd said:


> Yea but they do the same things to dudes sometimes... Ever watch a Youtube video only to see some dude rippin' it up and some kid that doesn't like that style of music says some shit like "You look like a fag,bro..." and makes fun of his haircut or something dumb...



I think you're making that point that a lot of guys have been in a position where they can insult and harass with impunity. It's only been fairly recently that there has been pushback. 



Hollowway said:


> I'm not sure this is really even a topic. There aren't nearly as many girls who play virtuosic electric guitar.



I know a lot of people who do start to pursue it because it appeals to them, but who are driven away by arseholes acting out, talking about the horns of the guitars and such. 



EvA said:


> I also hide away a lot for this reason, try not to show my gender online (apart from on here) and purposely don't post up YouTube stuff. I know I'm not the only female that does this and that might be another reason as to why there aren't as many recognised female metal guitarists out there.



I have friends who post on forums but hide that they're female, in order to avoid those very things. Some of them even choose hypermasculine names as an inside joke to those who know who they are. 

Could there be others?



EvA said:


> I also hide away a lot for this reason, try not to show my gender online (apart from on here) and purposely don't post up YouTube stuff. I know I'm not the only female that does this and that might be another reason as to why there aren't as many recognised female metal guitarists out there.



yeah, it looks like that type of guy is a huge problem. 



Gothic Headhunter said:


> I think the point is none of those girls are as famous as Steve Vai


 
I like that Vai is being used as a yardstick of fame in a topic which already brought up Beyonce....


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## Zhysick (Mar 16, 2015)

Yeah... I can't understand how all those girls aren't at least as famous as Steve Vai while all have tits... and Steve don't...



PS: I nailed it, I know.



[Sarcasm=off]


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## beerandbeards (Mar 16, 2015)

Outside of the guitar community, how popular is Vai anymore in popular music? Or any shredder for that matter?

I think if you had a woman you could shred in the 80s it'd be different but also I think it all has to do with marketability. Back then they wanted super models on cars not on guitars


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 16, 2015)

flint757 said:


> Well, check the first response in that screen grab. "OMG she's hot hurr durr". There's absolutely nothing she could actually do to prevent that either since it isn't like she's wearing a bikini in that picture. She's dressed completely normal.
> 
> That isn't an exclusively male or female problem or even something exclusive to metal since pop music has the same issues (Beyonce's, Rihanna, etc. judged on looks and Bieber, Timberlake, etc. same), but the issue really stems from the fact that metal attracts a lot of men making the whole situation really unbalanced. There's nothing inherently wrong with finding someone attractive or even expressing that you do, but when people start to attempt to discredit ones abilities or success due to gender and looks it becomes a problem. I mean what does it even mean to say "she's only famous because she's hot" in the guitar community when there are plenty of average looking awful guitar players who actually make great music. That pretty much sums up the entirety of the 90's grunge scene. You don't have to be Vai to write good music or be a descent guitar player, so it isn't like girls need to be virtuoso's to be taken seriously.



Uh actually, that is in regards to the guitar. "And the girl is pretty goddamn hot too." So if anything, the guitar got noticed before she did.

And speaking of female guitarists, I am really turned off by Tina S with her father's Vigier, her soulless [ie, little personality] guitar by numbers playing and the fact a 15 year old gets more attention than people that actually have talent. I have no personal problem with her, I just don't care for her playing. But what weirds me out is this possibly pedophile element going on considering she's 15 in regards to the guys that comment on her videos. 

Now, to show I "care" and am not a misogynist, Iron Boobies... er, Iron Maidens, make me feel uncomfortable. Am I meant to think 80s and be a pervert [ie, one of them is boobs for days], or am I supposed to defend them against negative or negative by intent comments made on YouTube videos [ie, negative = "only famous cuz female with boobs" vs negative by intent = "man, that one with the big tits would so get...] etc.]? Eh, whatever. I think they are hot and talented, but some of the comments are a tad TMI and extreme. 

Speaking of extreme, The Great Kat is hot, but I dare someone to tell her that. I bet it'd end up on some Teeth level shit.


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## UnderTheSign (Mar 16, 2015)

So where exactly did you show you cared?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 16, 2015)

UnderTheSign said:


> So where exactly did you show you cared?



I guess I didn't. I tried... sorta.


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## pink freud (Mar 16, 2015)

redstone said:


> A highly creative woman is not likely to be influenced by her education and social pressure, just being creative the way she wants. But people rarely invest themselves if there are no chances to be recognized, nobody to surprise, no challenge to win. Could Steve Vai become Steve Vai if he was born 20 years later, or sooner, or in another country ? Just ask Paco Hernandez why he still never recorded an album.. and so many others.
> 
> The fact that so few SteveVais become famous is the perfect illustration of how creativity is just a little part of a social equation made of anticreative criterions that will only allow from time to time some geniuses to do their jobs.



A lot of this. Look at Steve Vai's history. Frank Zappa, Whitesnake, DLR, then goes on to be the main act act spawning his own musical progeny (we probably wouldn't have Devy if it weren't for Vai). Vai is more than just a guy who is particularly good at guitar, he's been a focal point in music.

So if the question is "Who is a female Steve Vai" and not "Who is a female guitar virtuoso" then I put forth Carol Kaye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

In fact, she's more impressive as a musical focal point.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Mar 16, 2015)

pink freud said:


> A lot of this. Look at Steve Vai's history. Frank Zappa, Whitesnake, DLR, then goes on to be the main act act spawning his own musical progeny (we probably wouldn't have Devy if it weren't for Vai). Vai is more than just a guy who is particularly good at guitar, he's been a focal point in music.
> 
> So if the question is "Who is a female Steve Vai" and not "Who is a female guitar virtuoso" then I put forth Carol Kaye - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
> 
> In fact, she's more impressive as a musical focal point.



Speaking of Carol Kaye, I seem to remember a rather enjoyable video of Gene Simmons and Carol Kaye talking bass and whatnot. Gene definitely wasn't "on", so it showed that he knows when it's appropriate to be Gene $immon$ and when it's time to be respectful.


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## TRENCHLORD (Mar 16, 2015)

BlackMastodon said:


> I'm pleasantly surprised that this thread has actually stayed on the rails and didn't devolve into a pile of shit like the last time.



Well I have stayed out for the most part.


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## TedEH (Mar 17, 2015)

redstone said:


> However creativity abstracts oneself from a part of that influence : The part that can divert someone from being creative. Productivity being the other part. Musicians can lose the motivation to be productive due to many oppressive external factors but being a bad musician (assuming that you can practice it) is internal.
> 
> An occidental 16yo kid who doesn't buy a guitar to play some nerdy music due to social pressure... has not the necessary creative potential to make something unique, so he/she couldn't become Steve Vai anyway.



I can't disagree more with all of that. You're looking way too deep at something very simple. Being diverted from something creative doesn't mean that you were never creative in the first place- it means only that you were diverted, and nothing more than that. There's no relation to potential or actual creativity there, etc. Everyone starts off as a "bad musician". Everyone here sucked at guitar at one point in their lives.

And that's a huge part of this thread isn't it? We're all trying to find excuses to say that women never had potential/creativity in the first place instead of allowing ourselves to admit that the social pressures we ourselves applied may have diverted them away from becoming a "Vai" or something similar.


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## ferret (Mar 17, 2015)

@ 27s to 43s


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## JohnIce (Mar 17, 2015)

Wow, this thread is pretty neat so far  lots of good points.

The importance of the cultural aspect of why men vs. women play guitars is something that becomes very clear if you look around for asian folk music. I'm writing a piece now with only chinese virtual instruments so I listen around a lot to how they're played, and damn near all of the professional players are women. Look up Erhu, Guzheng or Pipa on youtube and prepare to see mostly ladies. So anyone thinking the reason there are fewer famous female guitar players because of how they're genetically less suitable for it, needs to get out more.


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## Gothic Headhunter (Mar 17, 2015)

Explorer said:


> I like that Vai is being used as a yardstick of fame in a topic which already brought up Beyonce....



Allow me to rephrase. My point was that Steve Vai is not only known by the majority of electric guitarists with an interest in rock music, but idolized as well. His songs are almost used as a milestone for people who really want to be good at soloing. Everybody respects his talent, and there's been more than a few times where I've seen his stuff recommended/used as practice on this forum. At the same time, I've never even heard of the other female guitarists mentioned in this thread, nor have I heard someone say "I wish I was as good as (insert female guitar virtuoso's name here)" 

So, if I'm understanding the OP correctly, it's not just fame, but the fact that they are looked up to by aspiring guitarists the world over. In that case, I don't think any of the names mentioned so far in the thread measure up.


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## asher (Mar 17, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> So anyone thinking the reason there are fewer famous female guitar players because of how they're genetically less suitable for it, needs to get out more.



Though I think we knew that anyway


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## JohnIce (Mar 17, 2015)

asher said:


> Though I think we knew that anyway



Hopefully, but someone mentioned the lengths of people's fingers in this thread as a considerable factor  Or that girls aren't aggressive enough to play metal etc. due to hormones or whatever. I hear plenty of guys argue that girls can't do good vibrato etc. for genetic reasons. Well neither can Herman Li and Sam Totman  It's all in the heads of people looking for alternative explanations to cultural problems 

Which is surprisingly many people, for some reason. Maybe when you don't want to or can't be arsed to improve a cultural habit, you find excuses to why it can't be improved in the first place so you can feel better about not helping, perhaps.


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## asher (Mar 17, 2015)

Er, sorry. Think that wasn't clear:

We already knew they needed to get out more


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## BlackMastodon (Mar 18, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Which is surprisingly many people, for some reason. Maybe when you don't want to or can't be arsed to improve a cultural habit, you find excuses to why it can't be improved in the first place so you can feel better about not helping, perhaps.


The American way. 

Also I can't deleted emoticons on my phone...


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## Explorer (Mar 19, 2015)

Gothic Headhunter said:


> Allow me to rephrase. My point was that Steve Vai is not only known by the majority of electric guitarists with an interest in rock music, but idolized as well. His songs are almost used as a milestone for people who really want to be good at soloing. Everybody respects his talent, and there's been more than a few times where I've seen his stuff recommended/used as practice on this forum. At the same time, I've never even heard of the other female guitarists mentioned in this thread, nor have I heard someone say "I wish I was as good as (insert female guitar virtuoso's name here)"



If you were to make it clear that all your statements are about guys and who they admire, maybe... although I've never enjoyed Vai, Satriani or others like that. I did greatly admire Danny Gatton.

There's a brand which a lot of one demographic has been buying: Daisy Guitars. That's because they're targeting females by showing females playing guitar. 

I know a ton of female players, and they are aware of who the great female players are, even if guys don't give a chit about them. Since the females admire both male and female players, males not knowing about the full spectrum just makes a statement about men being narrow-minded IMO. 

Shredding isn't necessarily compelling BTW. I think Taylor Swift has made more money off her music than Vai. For that matter, the songs written by Sia probably have more visibility and are more recognizable to the general public than Vai's entire catalog.

Why isn't Vai's songwriting more compelling?


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## Hbett (Mar 19, 2015)

This thread makes me proud to be a sso member. Maybe we should institute a "teach your daughter guitar day". These issues are 100% surmountable. Look at the gender makeup of the population with MDs or JDs and how it's changed since the 50's. Culture is more pliable and yet more powerful than we give it credit for. Personally I'm all for doubling the number of people with interesting new ideas to contribute to the guitar world.


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## Gothic Headhunter (Mar 19, 2015)

Explorer said:


> If you were to make it clear that all your statements are about guys and who they admire, maybe... although I've never enjoyed Vai, Satriani or others like that. I did greatly admire Danny Gatton.
> 
> There's a brand which a lot of one demographic has been buying: Daisy Guitars. That's because they're targeting females by showing females playing guitar.
> 
> ...



It sounds like you're making a lot of assumptions there and I'm not sure how many of them were directed at me, but just to be clear, I'm not a fan of Vai (or Satch, not sure what he has to do with anything here). 

And who these players are admired by doesn't really matter, either. Vai is looked up to by a vast amount of people, whereas these female players are lesser known. I still think my first point was the best- there's no female Steve Vai because Zappa never had a female guitarist. There isn't even another male Steve Vai. Vai got big because he sent Zappa home videos of himself playing "Black Napkins" and Zappa knew he had to have him. How many other players started out like that, male or female? I don't know of any.

You inadvertently touched on a very good point by mentioning Taylor Swift. Taylor Swift is idolized by young girls, and many of them chose to start playing guitar because of her. That's just basic chords, no virtuoso guitar solos there. Why would a fan of Taylor Swift want to start playing Vai's music? There actually are a ton of female guitarists- just look at country music- but very few female virtuoso guitarists. But then again, how many male guitarists like that are there? If anything, the numbers are more even now than they've ever been. Go back to the days of real virtuosos like Paganini- I can't think of a single female composer from that era.


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## SeditiousDissent (Mar 19, 2015)

Has anyone heard of the Commander in Chief? Not only is she an incredible neoclassical guitarist, but she plays 7's.


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## asher (Mar 19, 2015)

Yeah, she got a thread about her a while ago when she went on TV... I think a lot of the reactions were kinda meh to her playing?


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## Randy (Mar 19, 2015)

Every one of those videos would be better (audibly, speaking) without her.


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## bhakan (Mar 25, 2015)

JohnIce said:


> Hopefully, but someone mentioned the lengths of people's fingers in this thread as a considerable factor  Or that girls aren't aggressive enough to play metal etc. due to hormones or whatever.


If anyone thinks that girls aren't aggressive enough to play metal

While they're basically the opposite of shred like Steve Vai, I do think Reba from Code Orange is a great example of people not acting like idiots about a female metal/hardcore musician. You don't see people talking about Code Orange like "Check out this FEMALE FRONTED hardcore band" or something. It's just great music, made by talented people, one of whom happens to be a girl.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 25, 2015)

Finger length isn't as important as good thumb postioning. Hell I'm a gal with small hands and I play 8's and soon 9's.


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## n4t (Mar 25, 2015)

Alice AKW said:


> Finger length isn't as important as good thumb postioning. Hell I'm a gal with small hands and I play 8's and soon 9's.



While I agree with the sentiment, most famous shred guitarists say otherwise. 

I saw Jeff Loomis play a mandolin once. It was like watching the mandolin get eaten by a giant spider.


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## Alice AKW (Mar 25, 2015)

Bigger hands and longer fingers can help yes, but it's not a prerequisite to play rather vigorous lead guitar.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 25, 2015)

I'm in a band with all women, and they're all generally better than I am. Finger length has very little to do with neck width (6, 7, and 8 strings) and more to do with scale length where stretches become more difficult. With that said, the two other guitarists can handle 28"+ scale guitars just as well as anyone else who wants to.

Of course this isn't exactly the point of the thread. There are no female Steve Vai equivalents for lots of reasons. One of the reasons I'm personally familiar with is a hugely contributing factor that's already been brought up. Women just aren't taken seriously. Women are constantly brought down to being nothing more than sex appeal. Guys try to impress women players, or put them down out of spite. We don't perform live because of it, and when we release play through videos or something I'm the one to do it. 

There are plenty of women who are just as skilled. This isn't about fame, but skill, and women aren't inherently lacking in skill.


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## michblanch (Mar 25, 2015)

I think a lot of genders get pigeonholed early to certain instruments. 
Public school band leaders are guilty of this. 
Girls play flutes and clarinets and are almost steered there. 

If a guy plays a flute in school he's labeled fruity or gay. There has only been one male flute player that no one would question his sexuality and that is Ron Burgundy. 

Ha jazz flute showed a lot of people that flute can be theatrical and filled with testosterone. He smashed the glass ceiling. 

Ace Frehley could have helped if he had been brave and played flute in Kiss. 
With his showmanship he could have had fireworks and smoke coming from his flute. 
Ace Frehley set flute playing back years.


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## tedtan (Mar 25, 2015)

michblanch said:


> Ace Frehley could have helped if he had been brave and played flute in Kiss.
> With his showmanship he could have had fireworks and smoke coming from his flute.
> Ace Frehley set flute playing back years.



Ian Anderson gave it a shot in Jethro Tull. No smoke, though...


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## Gothic Headhunter (Mar 25, 2015)

Ace Frehley actually did play a smoking flute once. But it was on That Metal Show which is probably why no one remembers it. 

That Metal Show | Episode 702 | Ace Frehley, Billy Sheehan | VH1
(19 minutes in)


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## Discoqueen (Mar 25, 2015)

If my parents bought me this for my first guitar, I probably would have quit. It's fabulous, but for serious, those are ..... Boys aren't expected to deal with these rediculous things. Granted, this is such a small thing in comparison to the bigger picture. Most girls I see go into music lessons have acoustic guitars as well. In my opinion, acoustics are a brutal way to learn guitar because cheap acoustic guitars demand a certain skill to play anyways. So, this could be part of it.


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## right_to_rage (Mar 27, 2015)

LEAH WOODWARD


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