# Unpopular opinions on gear



## Spaced Out Ace

This seemed like it could be interesting. How about unpopular opinions on gear? For instance, most people to talk about how "bad" EMG HZ pickups are, but I rather enjoy the ALX, H2, H3, and H4 pickups I have at my disposal. I think they sound pretty damn good. I also really like the analog cab sim in my Tech 21 British and Joyo American Sound pedals even though people tend to prefer IRs and cab sim pedals like the CAB M and Radar (which are good, but I don't feel they are necessary). 

So what're some unpopular gear opinions you guys have? I'm interested to see what you guys have to say.


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## _MonSTeR_

I guess it might be an unpopular gear opinion so here goes, so much of what people associate with high end gear is actually a high end set up. As such spending money with a tech or luthier setting up a regular production line guitar can yield exactly the same results in terms of playability as going “full custom”.

I also think that build quality in terms of fit and finish is great, but is given far too much importance in terms of playability and tone.


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## c7spheres

- I like EMG 707's. For years they were the best 7 string pickup you could get then ever since Blackouts came out they've gotten a bad rap. They are still great pickups. Sure there's probably something better out there but that don't mean these suck. 
- There's stlil good solid state distortions out there. 
- Overdrive pedals are not automatically needed in front of an amp, even to get djenty.


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## Spaced Out Ace

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I guess it might be an unpopular gear opinion so here goes, so much of what people associate with high end gear is actually a high end set up. As such spending money with a tech or luthier setting up a regular production line guitar can yield exactly the same results in terms of playability as going “full custom”.
> 
> I also think that build quality in terms of fit and finish is great, but is given far too much importance in terms of playability and tone.


Yeah, some of those "classic" guitars aren't exactly "quality" in terms of fit or finish. Apparently Eddie called his original Frankenstrat "a piece of shit." I do think it looked pretty swanky with the 2 single coils (neither of which worked, I'm sure), and a black headstock'd Strat style neck.


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## Spaced Out Ace

c7spheres said:


> - I like EMG 707's. For years they were the best 7 string pickup you could get then ever since Blackouts came out they've gotten a bad rap. They are still great pickups. Sure there's probably something better out there but that don't mean these suck.
> - There's stlil good solid state distortions out there.
> - Overdrive pedals are not automatically needed in front of an amp, even to get djenty.


Yeah, if you can't get djunty with a VHT, the amp isn't the problem. It is likely the pickup or guitar that needs help. Back in the day, there was a drastic difference between tube drive, solid state (ie, using diodes) distortion pedals, and digital OD/distortions. All three have gotten drastically better and closed the gap in a lot of ways.


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## MASS DEFECT

Putting an overdrive pedal in front of most high gain amps actually make them sound worse. 

Just me, though. I like hearing those amps raw. Except of course, amps like Rectos or some Marshalls.


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## ATRguitar91

Tube preamps are overrated. Tubes help a lot in the power section, but solid state preamps sound just as good as tube to my ear.


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## Werecow

Spaced Out Ace said:


> This seemed like it could be interesting. How about unpopular opinions on gear? For instance, most people to talk about how "bad" EMG HZ pickups are, but I rather enjoy the ALX, H2, H3, and H4 pickups I have at my disposal. I think they sound pretty damn good. I also really like the analog cab sim in my Tech 21 British and Joyo American Sound pedals even though people tend to prefer IRs and cab sim pedals like the CAB M and Radar (which are good, but I don't feel they are necessary).
> 
> So what're some unpopular gear opinions you guys have? I'm interested to see what you guys have to say.



I guess mine is the same as yours. I've got a Jackson SLSMG with HZ pickups in, and i love the sound of that guitar. I've had it a long time and never once considered changing the pickups.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

The V30 is fine as it is and i don't get speakers that "fix" the issues. They tend to make it sound more bland. 

Chorus is the best effect. 

Randall should've stuck with solid state and hybrid amps and make those sound good.


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## Carl Kolchak

My favorite recorded guitar was, I'm told, gotten using an SM57 and a V30, but aside from this particular instance here I think that combo tends to sound shitty.


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## cardinal

Boosting amps is fine and sounds great when the amp has only two or three gain stages, but IMHO it sounds bad when the amp has lots of gain stages, even if you turn the preamp volume down low.

If you want to revoice a high gain preamp, you want a high or low pass filter or eq IMHO (or a different amp), not a boost pedal.


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## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Chorus is the best effect.



Lol. I have always loved Chorus, and find it funny how it has been coming back lately after years of hate. I rarely even use other Mod effects.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> Lol. I have always loved Chorus, and find it funny how it has been coming back lately after years of hate. I rarely even use other Mod effects.



I have the EVH flanger and i use it for only 2 sounds; the Unchained airplane effect, and a chorus.


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## viifox

Most people seem to love BOSS pedals, but i generally kinda hate them. I've yet to play anything from boss that really did anything for me, aside from the Tera Echo (which is pretty cool). I also do own the FV500, which is solid AF.

Ironically enough, one if my all time favorite tones is from HUM's Downward is Heavenward album, which one of their guitarists mainly used a Boss distortion/feedbacker pedal into a vintage 200w Orange. I actually bought that same pedal, but it sounded like complete ass, so i have no idea what kind of magic tricks they did to get that kind of tone from it. Probably had something to do with them running it into that Orange amp with massive headroom.

But yeah, I'd basically take any other pedal company over boss any day of the week, well, except for maybe Zoom.


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## rexbinary

viifox said:


> Most people seem to love BOSS pedals, but i generally kinda hate them. I've yet to play anything from boss that really did anything for me, aside from the Tera Echo (which is pretty cool). I also do own the FV500, which is solid AF.
> 
> Ironically enough, one if my all time favorite tones is from HUM's Downward is Heavenward album, which one of their guitarists mainly used a Boss distortion/feedbacker pedal into a vintage 200w Orange. I actually bought that same pedal, but it sounded like complete ass, so i have no idea what kind of magic tricks they did to get that kind of tone from it. Probably had something to do with them running it into that Orange amp with massive headroom.
> 
> But yeah, I'd basically take any other pedal company over boss any day of the week, well, except for maybe Zoom.



So I have always felt the same way about BOSS since way back and completely avoided them. That is until last year when I picked up a DD-200. Now I own six BOSS pedals and love them all. I have had friends tell me that they don't even know me anymore.


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## viifox

rexbinary said:


> So I have always felt the same way about BOSS since way back and completely avoided them. That is until last year when I picked up a DD-200. Now I own six BOSS pedals and love them all. I have had friends tell me that they don't even know me anymore.


Ha! 

Yeah, i haven't even written them off either, but every time i try something from BOSS, I'm usually pretty underwhelmed.

In fact, i tried owning the DD500 at least twice, thinking i could find what people love so much about it, but nope. 

I really do think it's just the "BOSS tone" that i don't jive with. I just find the sound of their pedals to be sterile, boring, and lifeless. It's unfortunate, because i love how solidly built, inexpensive and readily accessible they are. 

I will say I'm looking forward to trying their SY-1!


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## gunch

viifox said:


> Most people seem to love BOSS pedals, but i generally kinda hate them. I've yet to play anything from boss that really did anything for me, aside from the Tera Echo (which is pretty cool). I also do own the FV500, which is solid AF.
> 
> Ironically enough, one if my all time favorite tones is from HUM's Downward is Heavenward album, which one of their guitarists mainly used a Boss distortion/feedbacker pedal into a vintage 200w Orange. I actually bought that same pedal, but it sounded like complete ass, so i have no idea what kind of magic tricks they did to get that kind of tone from it. Probably had something to do with them running it into that Orange amp with massive headroom.
> 
> But yeah, I'd basically take any other pedal company over boss any day of the week, well, except for maybe Zoom.



that and old Hiwatts


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## Spaced Out Ace

Werecow said:


> I guess mine is the same as yours. I've got a Jackson SLSMG with HZ pickups in, and i love the sound of that guitar. I've had it a long time and never once considered changing the pickups.


What model pickups are in the guitar? H4?



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Chorus is the best effect.


Alexi agrees, and I enjoy turning it on for certain riffs. They don't sound right otherwise.


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## viifox

gunch said:


> that and old Hiwatts


Correct. Tim Lash ran a sansamp gt2 into a Hiwatt. I bet that combined with Matt's Orange/Boss rig is what makes their sound so massive. Even live, their sound is just huge. They also have a pretty heavy hitting drummer!


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## gunch

viifox said:


> Correct. Tim Lash ran a sansamp gt2 into a Hiwatt. I bet that combined with Matt's Orange/Boss is what makes their sound so massive. Even live, their sound is just huge. They also have a pretty heavy hitting drummer!


 
Even then as weird as the setups are they sound massive and huge and then tight enough for faster riffing like in the bridge of Stars or Green to Me 

what cabs did they use?


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## prlgmnr

I don't think I have any unpopular gear opinions, I'm trying to think.


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## viifox

gunch said:


> Even then as weird as the setups are they sound massive and huge and then tight enough for faster riffing like in the bridge of Stars or Green to Me
> 
> what cabs did they use?


Right?! I still can't get over that the bulk of their distorted tones came from old distortion pedals. They just sound too big and full, like recto/wall of sound type huge.

I know Matt always used Orange cabs. Can't remember what Tim used.


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## narad

ATRguitar91 said:


> Tube preamps are overrated. Tubes help a lot in the power section, but solid state preamps sound just as good as tube to my ear.



OP said unpopular opinions, not wrong ones.


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## Spaced Out Ace

viifox said:


> Correct. Tim Lash ran a sansamp gt2 into a Hiwatt. I bet that combined with Matt's Orange/Boss rig is what makes their sound so massive. Even live, their sound is just huge. They also have a pretty heavy hitting drummer!


If I didn't have two Tech 21 British pedals and a Joyo American Sound, I'd get a GT2.


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## Vostre Roy

narad said:


> OP said unpopular opinions, not wrong ones.



I think that it depends of the context its being used. For anything that is not stupidly aggressive metal, I would prefer an all tube setup. But for a tight modern death metal tone, I'm getting more than decent results with a solid state preamp pedal going into the effects loop of a tube amplifier (solid state for tightness, tube power for that magical tube low end "oomph")

And that comes from someone who has built tube amplifier and actually have some tatooed on his arm.

Just wanted to add my grain of salt as I don't have any unpopular opinion on gear that I can think of lol

Edit: Didn't realized until I saw my post how contradictory my statement is compared to my forum signature.


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## Werecow

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What model pickups are in the guitar? H4?



Yup H4. My SLSMG is one of my standard tuning guitars. There's something about the palm mutes i just love for thrash and 90's rock. They have this chunk i've not found with any of my other guitars. It seems to start going away when moving down to Drop D, so not sure i'd like the pickups so much with other tunings. Doesn't matter to me though as that's not what the guitar is for.


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## Spaced Out Ace

Werecow said:


> Yup H4. My SLSMG is one of my standard tuning guitars. There's something about the palm mutes i just love for thrash and 90's rock. They have this chunk i've not found with any of my other guitars. It seems to start going away when moving down to Drop D, so not sure i'd like the pickups so much with other tunings. Doesn't matter to me though as that's not what the guitar is for.


I use an H4 in the bridge in Eb. It sounds pretty cool with the ABQ from the EMG ALX set.


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## wheresthefbomb

- My non-lm308 90s big box RI RAT sounds just as good as the LM308 Rat King I used to have, to the point where I bought it intending to swap chips and never bothered.

- reverb before distortion (into more reverb)

- headless guitars are ugly, so are parker guitars, so are dingwall basses. actually most ERGs are ugly, and the djentier and stringier they are the uglier they tend to be. sorry I don't make the rules.

- the correct amount of distortion is generally the absolute least amount possible, actually probably less than that, there you go, which seems to be a very unpopular perspective with the "metal" guitarists I end up in bands with.

- I don't know how "unpopular" it is, but thinking about price points, my Gibson Baritone SG was $900 used, it's a nice instrument but it isn't twice as good of a guitar as the Mushok sig I paid less than half as much for. Similarly, my Agile AL-2000 was $250 shipped brand new in a case, and I've invested probably around that much again in upgraded parts over five years. I use all three guitars regularly, they all have individual strengths and weaknesses that suit different aspects of my playing, but their original price points really do not reflect their comparable effectiveness as tools.

Similarly, I've got a pair of Dragonfire P90s that I paid $45 for in the Agile. I've got a BKP supermassive P90 in the neck of the PRS that I paid $175 for, the supermassive is definitely awesome, but it's not "better" than the Dragonfire to my ear, just a different voice. I don't regret paying for it, I've got another handwound pickup in the mail (Avedissian Night Prowler), but it's important to be aware of the sharpness of the curve of diminishing returns with increased in price. That's why I almost never buy new and I like old dusty pawn shop Peavey SS heads so much.


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## efiltsohg

(certain) neck humbuckers are great for metal rhythm tones

v30s are actively unpleasant sounding, especially the mesa ones

(certain) solid state amps are perfectly fine - they have this damping factor that tubes can never match, which sounds great for specific music styles

basically every "boutique" amp has nothing special about it, they are almost all hotrodded marshalls, which you can find countless other examples of for like 400$


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## Spaced Out Ace

wheresthefbomb said:


> - the correct amount of distortion is generally the absolute least amount possible, actually probably less than that, there you go, which seems to be a very unpopular perspective with the "metal" guitarists I end up in bands with.


I like to get a little gain from several sources rather than all from one place most of the time. Ie, a little from the pickup, a little from the EMG ABQ Preamp, a little from an OD, a little from the Tech 21 British. Then once it comes out the speaker, it's a huge articulate tone.


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## wheresthefbomb

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I like to get a little gain from several sources rather than all from one place most of the time. Ie, a little from the pickup, a little from the EMG ABQ Preamp, a little from an OD, a little from the Tech 21 British. Then once it comes out the speaker, it's a huge articulate tone.



Agreed, I use a RAT and a Pharaoh but both are set to very minimal gain levels, I find that too much gain tends to cover up the individual articulation of pickups, pedals, even the power amp section very quickly, not to mention picking dynamics.


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## budda

The hell, people are talking about Hum in this thread?

And we didnt mention what Cave In did with boss pedals on antenna and jupiter (and live nowadays? For shame!

Unpopular gear opinions?

Hm. Can I just generalize beyond a brand?


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## oniduder

i really disliked every diezel i've ever owned, don't sound good

herbert, vh4 i assume the other varieties are similar so whatever

but the vh4 i found particularly disappointing, and i think i may be one of the few who doesn't really care for marshall-esque tones, some i like others or most i find lacking

in ways i can't describe, because i suck at life


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## wheresthefbomb

budda said:


> And we didnt mention what Cave In did with boss pedals on antenna and jupiter (and live nowadays? For shame!



RIP Caleb


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## TheWarAgainstTime

efiltsohg said:


> (certain) neck humbuckers are great for metal rhythm tones
> 
> v30s are actively unpleasant sounding, especially the mesa ones
> 
> (certain) solid state amps are perfectly fine - they have this damping factor that tubes can never match, which sounds great for specific music styles
> 
> basically every "boutique" amp has nothing special about it, they are almost all hotrodded marshalls, which you can find countless other examples of for like 400$



Agreed on all points besides the V30 thing. I even vastly prefer the Mesa V30 to regular ones 

I think my only unpopular gear opinion is that the lunchbox amp craze is kinda dumb. Little EL-84s and 6V6s and tiny transformers just don't do it for me, at least for metal. Plus I usually like amps with three channels, or at least two channels with switchable boost options. In my experience, full-sized amps can do low/moderate volumes just fine as long as they either have a decent master volume design or if you run a volume/eq pedal in the loop to tame the overall level in fine adjustments. If you need a completely silent stage solution, pretty much any modeler will deliver the goods and offer way more tones than what most lunchbox amps can offer. Same deal with weight and portability concerns.

EDIT: I guess "dumb" is the wrong descriptor. Maybe "unnecessary" is more what I mean since it seems like a very roundabout way of achieving basically what either modelers OR regular amps can do, but with more limitations.


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## viifox

budda said:


> The hell, people are talking about Hum in this thread?



Funny you say that. 

Downward is Heavenward didn't sell enough records, so their label dropped them. But it's easily one of my top 5 favorite albums. 

How's that for an unpopular opinion?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

narad said:


> OP said unpopular opinions, not wrong ones.



Nah, AMT's knocking it out the park, the ISP Theta kicks ass, and Crate supposedly has a killer sounding rackmount preamp. 

I've been wanting to try a Carvin SX15. I've heard the Carvin SS amps are good. I never really liked their tube amps to be honest.


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## lewis

Unpopular Opinions:

Fishmans range from "ok", to "meh" to shit sounding

literally none are absolutely sensationally stunning tonal euphoria - like the Internet has you believe.

Jack of all trades master of none is the best description for them

opinion 2:

Boss pedals are criminally underrated. Things like the SD1 is still one of the most awesome and appropriate sounding OD/Boosts on the market for High Gain and to make things better, one of the cheapest too.
Also, things like the Boss Delay to my ears (and others when I was recoding an album) destroyed my Carbon Copy Delay.

Opinion 3: BluGuitar has really stumbled upon something genuinely mind blowing with their Amp1 products and thats just the start - how most people havent gone mad for them is crazy to me. Everything about them is incredible. They still seem fairly small and underrated.

opinion 4: Taking "cheap" production or kit guitars and investing good money into better hardware/electronics is fine and enjoyable, despite what people online will tell you. "just save your money and buy a £2k guitar instead dude" is often the response I see when people want to upgrade old or cheap guitars instead. Its Nonsense tbh.


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## vilk

viifox said:


> Most people seem to love BOSS pedals, but i generally kinda hate them. I've yet to play anything from boss that really did anything for me, aside from the Tera Echo (which is pretty cool). I also do own the FV500, which is solid AF.
> 
> Ironically enough, one if my all time favorite tones is from HUM's Downward is Heavenward album, which one of their guitarists mainly used a Boss distortion/feedbacker pedal into a vintage 200w Orange. I actually bought that same pedal, but it sounded like complete ass, so i have no idea what kind of magic tricks they did to get that kind of tone from it. Probably had something to do with them running it into that Orange amp with massive headroom.
> 
> But yeah, I'd basically take any other pedal company over boss any day of the week, well, except for maybe Zoom.



The trick with a DF-2 is the turn the tone knob down to zero (or close to zero)... and you still need a somewhat dark sounding rig, too. I actually think mine sounds pretty great with my Marshall Origin, but again I turn the brite knob way down, and I have to take down the presence, too. But then it's jammin! I think it's a cool pedal because it does not sound _just_ like a DS-1, but it's in the ballpark. Gets that _Boss Distortion_ sound but without being the exact same DS-1 tone everyone has. Honestly it reminds me in some ways of a Rat, but noticeably different midrange sound. But then again way less versatile than a Rat, since you can't really do anything with the tone knob  and the volume knob has to be dimed. I don't think I sound _just_ like Hum but I'm not like worlds apart.


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## Emperoff

- I love Boss pedals
- Headless guitars look hideous
- I don't use boosts.
- Evertunes are ugly as sin.
- You don't need to spend 400$ on a delay.
- Buying an amp to play at home with a loadbox is ridiculous. Just get a damn preamp.

COME AT ME!


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## Matt08642

EMG 81 is still the best at what it does in every way compared to Fishmans and SD Blackouts based on everything I've heard. Drop tuning, chugs, tight stuff, 81 is god tier. Speaking in the active pickup realm, of course.


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## lewis

Matt08642 said:


> EMG 81 is still the best at what it does in every way compared to Fishmans and SD Blackouts based on everything I've heard. Drop tuning, chugs, tight stuff, 81 is god tier. Speaking in the active pickup realm, of course.



The most accurate opinion Ive read regarding modern/Metal Pickups


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## Spaced Out Ace

lewis said:


> Boss pedals are criminally underrated. Things like the SD1 is still one of the most awesome and appropriate sounding OD/Boosts on the market for High Gain and to make things better, one of the cheapest too.


The SD-1 is a pretty kick ass pedal.



lewis said:


> Opinion 3: BluGuitar has really stumbled upon something genuinely mind blowing with their Amp1 products and thats just the start - how most people havent gone mad for them is crazy to me. Everything about them is incredible. They still seem fairly small and underrated.


$700 for a floor amp with plastic shaft pots and goofy little plastic buttons to switch channels is a bit absurd.



lewis said:


> opinion 4: Taking "cheap" production or kit guitars and investing good money into better hardware/electronics is fine and enjoyable, despite what people online will tell you. "just save your money and buy a £2k guitar instead dude" is often the response I see when people want to upgrade old or cheap guitars instead. Its Nonsense tbh.


I see "get a better guitar" as a reasonable response if they haven't bought it already and want to buy it with that in mind. However, if they already have it and have owned it for a long time, and then want to improve it with name brand bridge, tuners, pickups, etc., then go for it.


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## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> - Headless guitars look hideous


This is a popular opinion. I said UNpopular.


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## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> EMG 81 is still the best at what it does in every way compared to Fishmans and SD Blackouts based on everything I've heard. Drop tuning, chugs, tight stuff, 81 is god tier. Speaking in the active pickup realm, of course.


I prefer the 85, and possibly the regular Blackouts, though I've never used them (but I think they are more "thick" sounding).


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## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> - Evertunes are ugly as sin.
> - You don't need to spend 400$ on a delay.


Yep. And I spent like $300, but in all fairness, it has two delay engines AND a reverb.


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## Emperoff

Spaced Out Ace said:


> This is a popular opinion. I said UNpopular.



Not on this board! 



Matt08642 said:


> EMG 81 is still the best at what it does in every way compared to Fishmans and SD Blackouts based on everything I've heard. Drop tuning, chugs, tight stuff, 81 is god tier. Speaking in the active pickup realm, of course.



This is not an unpopular opinion at all, rather the opposite. Everyone aknowledges that the EMG81 is unbeatable at its thing. Most people just want "something more" out of their pickups and there comes the Fishmans and the fantastic EMG 57/66 set. But if you want your guitar to do only *that* thing, nothing does it best. 

I have passives in all my guitars, but one still has the EMGs. It sounds absolutely monstruous in drop A.


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## akinari

gunch said:


> that and old Hiwatts





viifox said:


> Right?! I still can't get over that the bulk of their distorted tones came from old distortion pedals. They just sound too big and full, like recto/wall of sound type huge.
> 
> I know Matt always used Orange cabs. Can't remember what Tim used.



http://playgroundstudio.com/studio-secrets/hum-guitar-sounds/

Tim also used an Ibanez Powerlead distortion


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## Rex

- Agree with the 707, I think it's a great pickup, sounds amazing in my Jackson COW with all my amps and now with my ampless setup. Same with the EMG 81.
- I don't understand how a pickup can cost more than a new low to medium level guitar or more than a medium level second hand guitar. All our favourites albums were recorded with EMG 81, SD JB and simlars and metal never sounded better.
- My EHX Magnum sounds amazing and loud, no complaints.
- I'm ok with behringer , never had problems in terms of sound and reliability with their pedals and cabs.
- Love my old LTD M107, with a pickup upgrade it's a sweet sounding , comfortable and solid guitar.


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## viifox

akinari said:


> http://playgroundstudio.com/studio-secrets/hum-guitar-sounds/
> 
> Tim also used an Ibanez Powerlead distortion



Great article! I came across it a few years ago and still read it occasionally.


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## ATRguitar91

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Nah, AMT's knocking it out the park, the ISP Theta kicks ass, and Crate supposedly has a killer sounding rackmount preamp.
> 
> I've been wanting to try a Carvin SX15. I've heard the Carvin SS amps are good. I never really liked their tube amps to be honest.


Really are a lot of killer preamps out there: Theta, Tight Metal, Megalith Delta, SNK VHD, Empress Heavy. 

I tried the P1 years ago and really wasn't impressed, feel like I should give AMT another chance.


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## Necky379

I turn down the mid knob on my amps and I think they sound better that way.


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## broj15

*takes deep breath*

- Modellers will always be chasing tube amps.
- Solid state isn't always synonymous with bad.
- Lo Pro edge > original edge >>>>> OFR.
-The guitar market is severely over saturated.
- clip on tuners are for bedroom warriors & amateurs. If I see someone using one at a show I probably won't take them seriously.
- there's no such thing as too loud.
- anything more than an 8 string is excessive.
- obsessing over tone is usually overcompensation for a lack of skill.
- triggered/sampled drums are trash & made me hate modern death metal.
- TOM style bridges suck.
- thick baseball bat necks suck.
- schecter makes guitars for spec sheet queens.
- clean blend/mix knobs should be standard on
literally every dirt pedal.
- I don't like tube screamers.
- insanely high output pickups sound bad.
- a vintage amp pushed to it's limit sounds better than a modern voiced "metal" amp.
- if fender and Gibson can't come up with any new ideas then they should both just quit.
- burl tops look like a horror show from a gas station toilet.
- you don't need fanned frets. You need to practice.
- clean amp + a GOOD dirt pedal > amp gain

That's all I've got for now, but I'm sure I'll think of more.

Disclaimer: these are hot takes and meant to be inflammatory.


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## Spaced Out Ace

I had a Floyd once, and I'm sure there are ways to mitigate all of the things I had an issue with, but I currently prefer the low maintenance of a tuneomatic bridge.


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## broj15

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I had a Floyd once, and I'm sure there are ways to mitigate all of the things I had an issue with, but I currently prefer the low maintenance of a tuneomatic bridge.




I think my issues with TOM's are the feel of the saddles on my hand when palm muting, and (at least on Gibsons) the tailpiece always feels waaaaay to close to the bridge itself & It always feels very in the way.


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## mongey

If you think a 3 channel , non MW recto sounds crap, then you are crap at amps


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## Spaced Out Ace

broj15 said:


> I think my issues with TOM's are the feel of the saddles on my hand when palm muting, and (at least on Gibsons) the tailpiece always feels waaaaay to close to the bridge itself & It always feels very in the way.


I've never had that issue, but perhaps it is a matter of being used to it. I barely feel the saddles. Mine are string thru body setups, so that isn't an issue.


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## Spaced Out Ace

mongey said:


> If you think a 3 channel , non MW recto sounds crap, then you are crap at amps


I think a Recto sounds like crap because it seems to be the exact opposite of what I want tone wise.


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## efiltsohg

broj15 said:


> *takes deep breath*
> 
> - Modellers will always be chasing tube amps.
> - Solid state isn't always synonymous with bad.
> - Lo Pro edge > original edge >>>>> OFR.
> -The guitar market is severely over saturated.
> - clip on tuners are for bedroom warriors & amateurs. If I see someone using one at a show I probably won't take them seriously.
> - there's no such thing as too loud.
> - anything more than an 8 string is excessive.
> - obsessing over tone is usually overcompensation for a lack of skill.
> - triggered/sampled drums are trash & made me hate modern death metal.
> - TOM style bridges suck.
> - thick baseball bat necks suck.
> - schecter makes guitars for spec sheet queens.
> - clean blend/mix knobs should be standard on
> literally every dirt pedal.
> - I don't like tube screamers.
> - insanely high output pickups sound bad.
> - a vintage amp pushed to it's limit sounds better than a modern voiced "metal" amp.
> - if fender and Gibson can't come up with any new ideas then they should both just quit.
> - burl tops look like a horror show from a gas station toilet.
> - you don't need fanned frets. You need to practice.
> - clean amp + a GOOD dirt pedal > amp gain
> 
> That's all I've got for now, but I'm sure I'll think of more.
> 
> Disclaimer: these are hot takes and meant to be inflammatory.



agree with most of these (I like TOMs, fat necks, and tube screamers)


----------



## broj15

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I've never had that issue, but perhaps it is a matter of being used to it. I barely feel the saddles. Mine are string thru body setups, so that isn't an issue.



I can get by with a TOM if it's string through, and I had an old ibby sf420 that i upgraded with a hipshot baby grand bridge from the stock wraparound and I liked the feel of that quite a bit. I just don't see why so many manufacturers put the tailpiece that close to the bridge. I feel like the bony part of my wrist is always bumping into it. But my first guitar (and only for the first ~5 years of playing) was a strat so I just got accustomed to flat mount hard tail bridges.


----------



## Edika

Multiple piece guitar bodies do not kill sustain or make an inferior guitar, they're just aesthetically unpleasant (if there is a transparent finish). I've had a Schecter C-1 SLS and now a E-1. The C-1 was 3 pieces the E-1 is 4 or 5, both were really loud acoustically, louder than neckthroughs and setnecks with two and one piece bodies.

Solid state elements in tube preamps or solid state preamps really help to tighten up the sound for metal. Maybe they won't sound great for other genres. I've tried the Boss Metalzone with all my amps using it as a preamp to their power section and the tones I got made their tube preamps sound wimpy in comparison. Plus my Egnater has the option of turning the V1 from the tube to a solid state circuit and it sounds meaner cleaner and tighter with it.

The Boss Metalzone rules as a preamp to a tube power section.

Modern pickups are overrated. I just think people have gotten tired of listening to the same pickups and want to hear something different. The moment a new pickup provides them that then it's the tits. Take the Blackouts that replaced the classic EMG's. They were the lord and saviour of pickups back then. Now everyone can't stand them. Every modern pickup I tried that promoted clarity and whatever marketing spiel I've read lacked balls (except for the Black Winter but that was a voicing thing). 

Thick strings and lower than C may sound great in recordings but I find I don't like them in real life. Just a mushy mess of a sound. I think I like it but then plug in a guitar in E with 10-46 and it sounds infinitely better.


----------



## youngthrasher9

-[cheap] Rosewood fretboards are almost a guaranteed lack of tonal attack. 
-Eminence speakers are more of a standout choice than Celestion 
-Oddly enough, one the worst sounding 4x12’s I’ve ever tried was a Friedman. (very well could have been due to low volume)
-One of the most disappointing amps I’ve ever tried was a Diezel Einstein.


----------



## BenjaminW

De-tune is a severely underrated effect. Thank you Van Hagar era EVH tones for turning me onto such magic.


----------



## prlgmnr

wheresthefbomb said:


> - the correct amount of distortion is generally the absolute least amount possible, actually probably less than that, there you go, which seems to be a very unpopular perspective with the "metal" guitarists I end up in bands with.



I think this is compounded by the fact that the amount of gain that sounds good and heavy when playing by yourself (often at low volume) does not equate to the amount of gain that sounds good and heavy when playing in a band.


----------



## Gmork

My unpopular opinion: EVERYTHING can sound good! (in its own unique way) no matter how cheap etc it is, as long as it has the headroom to reach band volume. it all depends on whos playing it.
(within reason of course, ie those tiny battery powered marshall mini belt amps and the like will never sound good. etc)


----------



## Vyn

- Stock pickups are often nowhere near as bad as people think they are and are in some cases better than a set of Bareknuckles (any).


----------



## lewis

Vyn said:


> - Stock pickups are often nowhere near as bad as people think they are and are in some cases better than a set of Bareknuckles (any).


burn hahaha


----------



## Winspear

Locking tuners are nothing special. I'll still take them on a custom just because, but I've never felt the need to upgrade to them.
They do not add stability for me because standard tuners can be wound almost as little. With lockers I pull the string almost as tight as I can before lock+tune resulting in ~0.5 winds, with standard tuners I pull the string simply taut and have ~0.5-1 windings on the wounds and ~1-1.5 on the treble (that much is necessary to stop plains slipping). That little extra takes me barely any time at all, and certain locking tuners (Gotoh) I've actually found slower to use due to occasionally having to reset the hole size to be larger than it was when I removed the old string.


----------



## mongey

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think a Recto sounds like crap because it seems to be the exact opposite of what I want tone wise.


And that’s all good if it’s not your thing. 

But anyone who thinks you can’t tweak one version of an amp to sound like another sucks at amps


----------



## lurè

en Eq pedal will probably solve 95% of guitarists' problem but we better chase that 600$ pedal ripoff clone or that quantum entaglement induced coils pickups.


----------



## Vyn

lewis said:


> burn hahaha



If rep was still a thing I'd be negative within 24hrs of posting that


----------



## Winspear

More an observation than an unpopular opinion, but the popular boutique styles in the doom/drone guitar scene happen to have better construction/access designs than shredder guitars  Prettymuch down to the legacy of Travis Bean (perhaps inspired by the SG?)


----------



## sleewell

Vyn said:


> - Stock pickups are often nowhere near as bad as people think they are and are in some cases better than a set of Bareknuckles (any).



Maybe in mid level guitars but cheap guitars can def sound better with better pickups


----------



## Vyn

sleewell said:


> Maybe in mid level guitars but cheap guitars can def sound better with better pickups



Oh there are some sets that are just garbage on the cheaper guitars. My point was more that you don't need to go out and buy boutique, hand-wound pickups to get amazing tones. Even when I have had to swap a pickup out, going for a used Dimazio Fusion Edge or a Duncan Designed Distortion (both OEM, overseas made pickups) have gotten me 90% of the tone I'm after for a fraction of the price (A Fusion Edge is a great example, can find them on eBay used for nothing and they are so similar in EQ curve to a Titan it's hilarious).

I'm a firm believer that a good 10-band EQ and some cheap OEM pickups is a better investment than boutique pickups.


----------



## sakeido

The best two horn shape is the Soloist. RGs are hideous. The Jackson RG is a disgrace.

If you like the Demon / Horizon 3 shape, you're wrong

Buying guitars online is a waste of time and money. As long as you go to stores to try guitars first, and your shop is willing to bring in guitars with no obligation, you don't need to spend more than $800-900 US to get a guitar that's as good as a guitar can possibly be

The vast majority of custom guitars are completely wasted on whoever ordered them. Custom orders should be restricted to professional musicians only. 

All Rectifiers sound good

People who don't want to use boost pedals are just weird

EMGs sound great

Dimarzios basically always sound bad and Seymour Duncan has been eating their lunch for the last 45 years


----------



## oneblackened

Boosts aren't always a good thing for an amp's tone
V30s are definitely not the be-all end-all speaker but they work more often than not, and not all V30s are the same, there are at least 5 or 6 different versions out there that sound little alike
Engls sound like oversaturated dogshit
Kempers don't sound good, at all
EMG 81s are still irresponsibly badass
Fishmans all have this synthetic sound that I hate
Tubes still sound better than modelers
Solid state isn't necessarily bad
Aristides are the most flavorless guitars I've ever played, they're the definition of flashy paintjob and zero tone


----------



## ElRay

broj15 said:


> - you don't need fanned frets. You need to practice.


 This one makes no sense. How does practice affect string tension and gauge?


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I have the EVH flanger and i use it for only 2 sounds; the Unchained airplane effect, and a chorus.





BenjaminW said:


> De-tune is a severely underrated effect. Thank you Van Hagar era EVH tones for turning me onto such magic.



Yeah, going along with the Chorus comments earlier in this topic, after going between TONS of Chorus pedals and rack units, I have found recently the secret is to run a Detune and Chorus in series together. They probably knew this trick in 1988, but it got lost somewhere in time, lol. The Detune can bring the lushness to a Chorus without using a ton of depth which makes them sound seasick. It makes me wish more Chorus pedals had a Detune setting on them.


----------



## Metropolis

I saw Delain live a year ago, their guitarist Timo Somers played Aristides 080s with fanned frets into a Kemper. He had awesome tone...


For metal almost every amp needs a boost.
Les Paul body shape is a terrible design.


----------



## Beheroth

tubes are obsolete


----------



## SSK0909

Guitarist obsess about stupid things like these:

- What pedal
- What strings
- Which speakers
- Which pickups
- What wood

When all of the above have far less impact on sound and feel than just turning a bit on the amp knobs and possibly buying an eq pedal.

Flying V's are not guitars. They're jokes


----------



## Werecow

broj15 said:


> - there's no such thing as too loud.



I'd disagree with that simply because i went to a Pantera concert once. I was a complete obsessive at the time, knew all their songs note for note, and could play most of the rhythm guitar parts as well.... It's the most disappointing concert i've ever been to because they were so fucking loud that i couldn't tell what songs they were playing. One of the only bits i was 100% sure they were playing was the really slow palm muted sections of This Love, and that was just because of the unmistakable stop-start nature of it. The rest of the concert sounded like an hour and a half long continuous snare drum hit directly into my ears, with no discernable musical note or tone to be detected


----------



## Emperoff

I'm loving this thread. I'm reading posts that would make people stab each other in the eyes if they were in another thread 



sakeido said:


> Buying guitars online is a waste of time and money. As long as you go to stores to try guitars first, and your shop is willing to bring in guitars with no obligation, you don't need to spend more than $800-900 US to get a guitar that's as good as a guitar can possibly be



Quite utopic thinking, I'd say. There's no way you can do that unless you're lucky to have such a store nearby. If I had to rely on a physical store I can guarantee you that:
A) They wouldn't bring a guitar just for you with no obligation.
B) It would be twice the price as the ones I bought online.

Not saying you're wrong, as that would be ideal. Just extremely unlikely these days and heavily influenced by where you live.


Wrecklyss said:


> -Mid range guitars often make the best gig instruments. Everything worth upgrading from a budget model is already addressed, and most of the upgrades left to do are purely cosmetic. If I bring a $3K guitar to a gig, I'm going to worry about it the whole time. If I bring a good playing and sounding $750 to a gig, I can rock out just the same and not live in constant fear of dings, scratches, spilled drinks, and patrons who feel like they can just touch your gear without asking.



Couldn't agree more. Add to that fancy oiled necks are less protected to "liquid" accidents than painted ones, and ebony boards can crack under extreme temperature changes, etc. This is why my MIJ Jackson with painted neck and rosewood board is the workhorse I use live 90% of the time, while the USA ones usually stay in the studio. 

The less shit you worry about when playing live, the better you'll play.


----------



## Wrecklyss

-Fishman Fluence don't offer anything that would make me choose them over a well-manufactured passive pickup.

-Spending time with stock pickups (even some unmarked ones that I have no idea what the hell they are) can make you decide against a swap approx. 90% 0f the time (I actually discovered some really great pickups doing this)

-You will dial in a better amp tone if you just ring out an open chord, close your eyes, and turn each knob one at a time while listening. Works on every amp. Choosing an amp setting based on parameter values is too unreliable due to component tolerance variances causing cumulative differences even in the same model. USE YOUR EARS!!!

-A Vox or similarly styled amp with a clean boost has a very musical distortion that cuts through a mix better than a Marshall style. Both sound great and offer different flavors (which complement each other quite well), but there's a reason an AC30 can still hang with a Triple Rec.

-Mid range guitars often make the best gig instruments. Everything worth upgrading from a budget model is already addressed, and most of the upgrades left to do are purely cosmetic. If I bring a $3K guitar to a gig, I'm going to worry about it the whole time. If I bring a good playing and sounding $750 to a gig, I can rock out just the same and not live in constant fear of dings, scratches, spilled drinks, and patrons who feel like they can just touch your gear without asking.

-Biasing tubes, adjusting truss rods, intonation bridge saddles, and impedance matching speakers aren't so hard you can't learn to do these things yourself. While a tech is happy to take your money, save them for more major issues and learn some basic set up and maintenance yourself.


----------



## BenjaminW

Shask said:


> Yeah, going along with the Chorus comments earlier in this topic, after going between TONS of Chorus pedals and rack units, I have found recently the secret is to run a Detune and Chorus in series together. They probably knew this trick in 1988, but it got lost somewhere in time, lol. The Detune can bring the lushness to a Chorus without using a ton of depth which makes them sound seasick. It makes me wish more Chorus pedals had a Detune setting on them.


I get my detune/chorus sound from a Boss PS-6 that I normally used for clean stuff. But then I saw recently that EVH used a detune pedal and thought I’d experiment with it. 

Turns out it kicks ass!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

He didn't use a pedal; it was a piece of rack gear.


----------



## mp3357

Necky379 said:


> I turn down the mid knob on my amps and I think they sound better that way.


I love this. The mid scooping fad has jerked entirely in the other direction because "CuTtInG thRu ThE mIx" apparently means crank mids always or you're a fool.

I'm not saying it doesn't help but you don't need your guitar to sound like overly midrangey garbage to cut through a band..


----------



## Vostre Roy

Wrecklyss said:


> -Biasing tubes, […] aren't so hard you can't learn to do these things yourself. While a tech is happy to take your money, save them for more major issues and learn some basic set up and maintenance yourself.



Agreed, but I'd put an asterisk on this part. When there's bias probe jack accessible from the outside of the amp and the manufacturer gives the plate voltage in the manual, its surprisingly easy to bias an amp. If you need to pull the amp out of the headshell and get readings directly in the circuit, then some knowledge about capacitors (risk and how to discharge them) as well as basic understanding of an amplifier's circuitry is needed.


----------



## Necky379

mp3357 said:


> I love this. The mid scooping fad has jerked entirely in the other direction because "CuTtInG thRu ThE mIx" apparently means crank mids always or you're a fool.
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn't help but you don't need your guitar to sound like overly midrangey garbage to cut through a band..



I just don’t think it’s necessary or a sound I particularly care for. People see my settings and think I’m scooped but you can’t hear a tone by looking at knobs it doesn’t work that way. It’s more open and wide sounding with the mids down. I honestly think I’d have a hard time dialing in a sound that _doesn’t _cut with boosted 5150’s, V30’s and greenback cabs. The only time I raise that knob is if I’m going through G12T’s.


----------



## Werecow

Necky379 said:


> I just don’t think it’s necessary or a sound I particularly care for. People see my settings and think I’m scooped but you can’t hear a tone by looking at knobs it doesn’t work that way. It’s more open and wide sounding with the mids down. I honestly think I’d have a hard time dialing in a sound that _doesn’t _cut with boosted 5150’s, V30’s and greenback cabs. The only time I raise that knob is if I’m going through G12T’s.



That's the thing that gets me with the trend. People are doing it on top of using V30's. Meanwhile thrash and death metal bands used to sound great live with scooped mids and G12T75's.

I'm guessing that's what makes what i call the "scratchy" djent tone i don't like, that doesn't have any balls.


----------



## Necky379

I guess that would be an unpopular opinion the two of us share. I hate most djent tones. Scratchy and no balls as you described it.


----------



## TedEH

Be it in recording or just playing in general - when something sounds bad, it's usually not the gear's fault.

That being said....

The best amps are ones that don't require a bunch of pedals to sound good - if you need stacked boosts, eqs in the loop, and five noise gates to get your basic gainy tone, maybe the amp isn't that great to begin with.

Trusting your listening environment is more important than having the best monitors or headphones.

You can, and maybe should, test mixes through the worst things you can find - including cell phones, bluetooth speakers, cheap earbuds, in your car, etc. Translating a mix is about getting things to sound as good as possible _anywhere_ not just on systems that were designed to make anything sound good.


----------



## efiltsohg

TedEH said:


> Trusting your listening environment is more important than having the best monitors or headphones.
> 
> You can, and maybe should, test mixes through the worst things you can find - including cell phones, bluetooth speakers, cheap earbuds, in your car, etc. Translating a mix is about getting things to sound as good as possible _anywhere_ not just on systems that were designed to make anything sound good.



somebody - might have been Gabriel Roth from Daptone records - wrote that it's best to mix on the speakers you are most familiar with, even if that's your car radio or whatever


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> Quite utopic thinking, I'd say. There's no way you can do that unless you're lucky to have such a store nearby. If I had to rely on a physical store I can guarantee you that:
> A) They wouldn't bring a guitar just for you with no obligation.
> B) It would be twice the price as the ones I bought online.



We're spoiled up here, L&M has 60 stores across Canada and they're awesome. Pricing is great and at times, has been way cheaper than the big box places in the States... the Cranborne 500ADAT was $500 cheaper in Canada than the US for a long time. That said, my local store has pushed back a few times on the "no obligation" part... until they check my account and see how much money I've spent there over the years 

But literally the only bad guitars I've ever owned, I bought online. The absolute worst guitars I've owned I bought used online. I've never, ever walked home from a store with a bad guitar. I had them bring a few Charvels in and I ended up with one that's 95% as good as my Suhr Modern Custom at 25% the price



Necky379 said:


> I guess that would be an unpopular opinion the two of us share. I hate most djent tones. Scratchy and no balls as you described it.



Is the "djent tone" now that garbage ultra-spanky clean sound guys use? I can't even remember the bands name cuz they're so bad, but it sounds like a VST from 1999. Outrageously horrible tone.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He didn't use a pedal; it was a piece of rack gear.


Fuck that's what I meant.


----------



## Emperoff

mp3357 said:


> I love this. The mid scooping fad has jerked entirely in the other direction because "CuTtInG thRu ThE mIx" apparently means crank mids always or you're a fool.
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn't help but you don't need your guitar to sound like overly midrangey garbage to cut through a band..



Spot on. I find current "modern metal" tones laughable. Guitars don't sound like guitars anymore. We need *MOAR *clarity and mids to cut through the mix. So we can properly hear those ear-fatiguing guitars that sound like a single coil wired into a duck.


----------



## lewis

Emperoff said:


> Spot on. I find current "modern metal" tones laughable. Guitars don't sound like guitars anymore. We need *MOAR *clarity and mids to cut through the mix. So we can properly hear those ear-fatiguing guitars that sound like a *single coil wired into a duck*.



"Perfect tone doesnt exi......


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

mp3357 said:


> I love this. The mid scooping fad has jerked entirely in the other direction because "CuTtInG thRu ThE mIx" apparently means crank mids always or you're a fool.
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn't help but you don't need your guitar to sound like overly midrangey garbage to cut through a band..


I think of the midrange knob as a voicing control for the guitar.


----------



## Shask

mp3357 said:


> I love this. The mid scooping fad has jerked entirely in the other direction because "CuTtInG thRu ThE mIx" apparently means crank mids always or you're a fool.
> 
> I'm not saying it doesn't help but you don't need your guitar to sound like overly midrangey garbage to cut through a band..


I mid scoop everything. Lots of mids sounds like a nasal telephone to me, and I cant do it. If I play out, I will adjust my settings, but at home, it better sound like 80's Metallica, lol.


----------



## lewis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think of the midrange knob as a voicing control for the guitar.


i do the same. 9/10 the higher I turn mids, the more some weird boxy/low mid shit gets added that muddies up the sound

I normally either keep mids at noon or lower them


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

lewis said:


> i do the same. 9/10 the higher I turn mids, the more some weird boxy/low mid shit gets added that muddies up the sound
> 
> I normally either keep mids at noon or lower them


I think there should be 2 or 3 mid knobs on an amp in addition to the low/high and pres/depth knobs. The 4/5 EQ knobs should have what frequency they are. For example: 350Hz, 500Hz, 800Hz, 1.2kHz, and 3.3kHz.


----------



## spudmunkey

So far, i've hated every boutiuque, thick-bodied picks/plectrums. i've got one more in-coming in a few weeks to give it one last try, but after 4 different ones, over the course of several months using each one exclusively for at least a full week, i just don't gel with any of them. it could very well just be what I'm used to after 30 years of guitar with 'normal' picks.


----------



## lewis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think there should be 2 or 3 mid knobs on an amp in addition to the low/high and pres/depth knobs. The 4/5 EQ knobs should have what frequency they are. For example: 350Hz, 500Hz, 800Hz, 1.2kHz, and 3.3kHz.


that really would be excellent!

Thats actually one of the reasons Im really enjoying my recent turn to playing Bass instead because it tends to be that my Darkglass stuff and wish list, all include proper EQ options rather than just one single mid sweep knob like an Amp would.

My first pedal is the X Ultra and it is incredible.


----------



## TedEH

Emperoff said:


> Guitars don't sound like guitars anymore.


I honestly think this is more because of modellers, IRs and heavy processing than it is just "mids". I can mid-scoop the bajeezus out of my real amp, or have all the nasally honking mids I want, and it still sounds like a guitar as long as you don't drown it in ungodly amounts of gain.

There's only so much variety you're going to get out of variations of boosted-5150-esque model, plus the ownhammer IRs, compressed and gated to oblivion, sitting on top of midi bass and a drum machine.


----------



## Necky379

sakeido said:


> Is the "djent tone" now that garbage ultra-spanky clean sound guys use? I can't even remember the bands name cuz they're so bad, but it sounds like a VST from 1999. Outrageously horrible tone.



It varies but yeah, that’s how I hear it. When I dialed it in on my POD XT it was Big Bottom, gain low, mids and lows basically maxed and then pull out the lows and 400 hz stuff with a GE-7 upfront. Add in 1.6k as if the POD high mids aren’t harsh enough, gate aggressively and you’re there.

That’s the old way at least. I was never interested enough to keep up with the genre. Even Meshuggah seems to be getting away from that sound.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TedEH said:


> I honestly think this is more because of modellers, IRs and heavy processing than it is just "mids". I can mid-scoop the bajeezus out of my real amp, or have all the nasally honking mids I want, and it still sounds like a guitar as long as you don't drown it in ungodly amounts of gain.
> 
> There's only so much variety you're going to get out of variations of boosted-5150-esque model, plus the ownhammer IRs, compressed and gated to oblivion, sitting on top of midi bass and a drum machine.


Yeah, that's going to sound like a dog smeared its ass juice all over the rug no matter how you slice it.


----------



## Emperoff

lewis said:


> "Perfect tone doesnt exi......




I almost fell off my chair when I read the first comment after the distorted part 



Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think there should be 2 or 3 mid knobs on an amp in addition to the low/high and pres/depth knobs. The 4/5 EQ knobs should have what frequency they are. For example: 350Hz, 500Hz, 800Hz, 1.2kHz, and 3.3kHz.



The ENGL E530 preamp has two midrange controls plus the contour switch. Which is pretty nice. 



sakeido said:


> Is the "djent tone" now that garbage ultra-spanky clean sound guys use? I can't even remember the bands name cuz they're so bad, but it sounds like a VST from 1999. Outrageously horrible tone.



This band popped right after the video @lewis posted. Not sure if it was the one you meant but the tone of the tattoed guy is the most horrid one I've ever heard, which also matches your description.


----------



## jco5055

spudmunkey said:


> So far, i've hated every boutiuque, thick-bodied picks/plectrums. i've got one more in-coming in a few weeks to give it one last try, but after 4 different ones, over the course of several months using each one exclusively for at least a full week, i just don't gel with any of them. it could very well just be what I'm used to after 30 years of guitar with 'normal' picks.



How thick are we talking? I've bought all the same kind of picks, and I've found my sweet spot is like 3.25mm or so. Just food for thought if you've only had the normal 2.0 or less mm and then the like 6mm+.


----------



## TedEH

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think there should be 2 or 3 mid knobs on an amp in addition to the low/high and pres/depth knobs. The 4/5 EQ knobs should have what frequency they are. For example: 350Hz, 500Hz, 800Hz, 1.2kHz, and 3.3kHz.


So basically they should just build every amp with a Mesa-style 5-band.


----------



## TedEH

Oh, we're including picks in this thread?

Thin picks all the way. 1mm and more picks feel like I'm scraping a brick across the top of the guitar. I use usually somewhere between .6 and .7.


----------



## lewis

TedEH said:


> Oh, we're including picks in this thread?
> 
> Thin picks all the way. 1mm and more picks feel like I'm scraping a brick across the top of the guitar. I use usually somewhere between .6 and .7.


im a convert after trying 0.68s for my bass


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> This band popped right after the video @lewis posted. Not sure if it was the one you meant but the tone of the tattoed guy is the most horrid one I've ever heard, which also matches your description.




Yes those guys! God they sound so, soooooo bad

it's like they fed a bunch of poor quality vinyl records of Stratocasters playing through Fender Twins to a shitty machine learning algorithm or something. If they wanted to sound spanky, why didn't they just... play maple board, single coils Strats through Fender amps? They'd still be unlistenable but at least it wouldn't be so offensive


----------



## Nanker Phelge

SSK0909 said:


> Flying V's are not guitars. They're jokes



I actually have come to the conclusion that Flying Vs are my ultimate guitar (when they aren't neck heavy). 
Great tone
Awesome upper-fret access
No trem
Lightweight
Knobs out of the way
Wide, flat neck
and they look killer

Plus, many of my heroes play/played them: James Hetfield, Michael Amott, Brent Hinds...etc


If I could afford a Gibby I'd be playing one now.


----------



## lewis

sakeido said:


> Yes those guys! God they sound so, soooooo bad
> 
> it's like they fed a bunch of poor quality vinyl records of Stratocasters playing through Fender Twins to a shitty machine learning algorithm or something. If they wanted to sound spanky, why didn't they just... play maple board, single coils Strats through Fender amps? They'd still be unlistenable but at least it wouldn't be so offensive



I love modern metal and even I agree. Those guys are shit haha
Its like someone plugged their guitar into a sega haha


----------



## oneblackened

Clarity is overrated. As long as the guitar is _reasonably_ decipherable, it doesn't matter.


----------



## Shask

sakeido said:


> Yes those guys! God they sound so, soooooo bad
> 
> it's like they fed a bunch of poor quality vinyl records of Stratocasters playing through Fender Twins to a shitty machine learning algorithm or something. If they wanted to sound spanky, why didn't they just... play maple board, single coils Strats through Fender amps? They'd still be unlistenable but at least it wouldn't be so offensive


I think that is a pretty cool sounding song, but yeah, that sounds like a telephone through a megaphone. Awful, and almost unlistenable.


----------



## Masoo2

it's stupid how many "high gain metal" amps still require boost pedals to sound halfway decent

the NeuralDSP amp plugins (Nameless, NTS, Omega) honestly sound like hot garbage and I can make a better tone with "outdated" plugins like POD Farm and Cubase's VST Amp Rack

I've yet to hear a simulated cab DI-out that actually sounds good

it boggles my mind how in the sea of options for guitars these days some companies manage to forget to release basic classic finishes (ie: black with white binding)

speaking of which, I love seeing the recentish popularity in sparkle, shell, and pastel finished guitars all of which look 100x better than a crappy veneer from the scrap pile on a budget guitar

thinner strings don't require lighter playing


----------



## Matt08642

Vyn said:


> - Stock pickups are often nowhere near as bad as people think they are and are in some cases better than a set of Bareknuckles (any).



The Dimarzio/IBZ pickups in my 2550 are my favorite pickups in any guitar I own


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Masoo2 said:


> speaking of which, I love seeing the recentish popularity in sparkle, shell, and pastel finished guitars all of which look 100x better than a crappy veneer from the scrap pile on a budget guitar
> 
> thinner strings don't require lighter playing



Both of these. The only company I've seen that does decent veneers is PRS on their SE line. Everyone else needs to stick with plain wood or solid finishes. Also I use like 9 - 46 in standard, 10 - 48 in drop C, 10 - 59 (or 62) in G# standard/drop F# and I still strum like a motherfucker.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TedEH said:


> So basically they should just build every amp with a Mesa-style 5-band.


No, this would be pre gain. If you want to shape post gain, put an EQ pedal or rack unit in the loop. Then you'd have a ton of ability to dial in the tone.


----------



## Science_Penguin

sakeido said:


> Yes those guys! God they sound so, soooooo bad
> 
> it's like they fed a bunch of poor quality vinyl records of Stratocasters playing through Fender Twins to a shitty machine learning algorithm or something. If they wanted to sound spanky, why didn't they just... play maple board, single coils Strats through Fender amps? They'd still be unlistenable but at least it wouldn't be so offensive



Give them a few years, they'll figure it out. I've seen quite a few people in that camp eventually move on to single coils, Fenders and Voxes or some facsimile thereof.

It's like trying to get nails in a board without a hammer... the solution is: buy a friggin' hammer!


----------



## TedEH

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Then you'd have a ton of ability to dial in the tone.


Then you'd basically have a slightly more tweakable version of the Mark series, which is already considered "too complicated" to some. The eq in those amps is already post-gain.


----------



## Vyn

Matt08642 said:


> The Dimarzio/IBZ pickups in my 2550 are my favorite pickups in any guitar I own



The V7/V8 set in the new 550s is pretty sick as well.


----------



## Jeff

Fractal, while sounding pretty good for a modeler, is extremely overrated and still doesn’t sound as good as a good amp, i.e. real Mesa, Marshall or Friedman. 
The difference between FAS and Helix at this point is pretty minimal too these days, and you really can’t tell in a good mix.


----------



## TheInvisibleHand

1: Burst finishes always (ALWAYS) look like Dad-rockers. I say this as one. 

2: Down-tuning doesn't usually sound "heavier". If that were the case, bands would just employ 3 bass players. Which would probably be more listenable than most modern "metal" bands. 

3: Djent is neither progressive nor metal. Admittedly, not gear related, but it seems that this particular genre is so damn pretentious about the gear they choose that one can safely assume they'll buy a bunch of shit they don't need in order to pursue a sound that isn't desirable to begin with.

4: The percentage of the guitar playing population that can effectively make use of an 8 string is less than 5%. 

5: I like boosts on my cleans but not on my dirty channels.

6: More than a year on a custom order isn't craftsmanship, its a poor work ethic.


----------



## c7spheres

lewis said:


> "Perfect tone doesnt exi......



I thought it sounded like a good tone, until that djenty part : )


----------



## c7spheres

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think there should be 2 or 3 mid knobs on an amp in addition to the low/high and pres/depth knobs. The 4/5 EQ knobs should have what frequency they are. For example: 350Hz, 500Hz, 800Hz, 1.2kHz, and 3.3kHz.


- They should just make every eq band fully parametric and exrtemely powerful regarding cut/boost db.
- I saw something (I wanna say with Fryette talking about this and also Rivera I think) that this has been done and tried and it's just to complex for people and the people don't want it. They want simple stuff that sounds good, which I agree is better if that gear works for your thing. 
- I'm not a people though. I'd want it for sure. I use the Ashly PQX-572 after my Mesa preamp which is a 7 band fully paramentric EQ, not because it's required, but because it just makes it so much better to dial it in exactly how you want. You can sculpt tone and clean up highs and low end boom etc and hit the power amp exactly how you want. A lot of the 80's and 90's rack guitar gods used Eq's. Eq just makes the world a better place (if used properly).


----------



## efiltsohg

sakeido said:


> We're spoiled up here, L&M has 60 stores across Canada and they're awesome.



r u for real? Long and McQuade bought or drove every almost single better store out of business. Their prices are too high, their selection is awful, and their staff are morons

it's like saying walmart is awesome


----------



## Masoo2

TheInvisibleHand said:


> 1: Burst finishes always (ALWAYS) look like Dad-rockers. I say this as one.
> 
> 2: Down-tuning doesn't usually sound "heavier". If that were the case, bands would just employ 3 bass players. Which would probably be more listenable than most modern "metal" bands.
> 
> 3: Djent is neither progressive nor metal. Admittedly, not gear related, but it seems that this particular genre is so damn pretentious about the gear they choose that one can safely assume they'll buy a bunch of shit they don't need in order to pursue a sound that isn't desirable to begin with.



2: songwriting is what makes a song heavy, but it's a whole lot easier to sound heavy in Drop F than E standard imo. it's hard to make a song that's heavy in E standard in 2020 without drawing heavily from the thousands of songs written in the tuning from years ago, like every time I try it comes out sounding either like Metallica or Iron Maiden and nothing really else. but that also depends on your definition of heavy, the same kind of person that thinks Black Tongue is heavy might not think Metallica is heavy and vice versa.

3: I don't get how you can listen to djent and call it "not metal" but listen to something like Black Sabbath and claim it to be as metal as can be. not saying _you_ specifically call Black Sabbath metal, but many of the people who make the claim about djent not being metal are the same types to call Black Sabbath, Led Zepplin, etc metal when to me personally nothing about them stands out as metal (or hell even doom metal), just slow hard rock. however, I prefer the more overarching definition of metal that includes metalcore and the early pioneers rather than narrowing it down into a specific set of requirements. metal is already niche enough, don't hurt the genre even more by debating whether or not X genre or Y band is metal. that's why I hate Metal Archives, they're about as pretentious and uptight about "what's trve metal" as one can get.


----------



## Emperoff

Masoo2 said:


> 3: I don't get how you can listen to djent and call it "not metal" but listen to something like Black Sabbath and claim it to be as metal as can be. not saying _you_ specifically call Black Sabbath metal, but many of the people who make the claim about djent not being metal are the same types to call Black Sabbath, Led Zepplin, etc metal when to me personally nothing about them stands out as metal (or hell even doom metal), just slow hard rock.



Black Sabbath *invented *metal. You can't possibly be more metal than Black Sabbath.


----------



## broj15

ElRay said:


> This one makes no sense. How does practice affect string tension and gauge?



People have been shredding & riffing way harder than people on this forum long before fanned frets were even a thought. Modern guitars are engineered beyond most of our abilities to play. 



Werecow said:


> I'd disagree with that simply because i went to a Pantera concert once. I was a complete obsessive at the time, knew all their songs note for note, and could play most of the rhythm guitar parts as well.... It's the most disappointing concert i've ever been to because they were so fucking loud that i couldn't tell what songs they were playing. One of the only bits i was 100% sure they were playing was the really slow palm muted sections of This Love, and that was just because of the unmistakable stop-start nature of it. The rest of the concert sounded like an hour and a half long continuous snare drum hit directly into my ears, with no discernable musical note or tone to be detected



I would either blame that on Dime's tone being straight ass or a sound guy that had been slammin black tooth grins with the band before the show started. Maybe a combination of both.


----------



## Emperoff

broj15 said:


> I would either blame that on Dime's tone being straight ass or a sound guy that had been slammin black tooth grins with the band before the show started. Maybe a combination of both.



He's not the first dude I've heard saying that. It was probably a very common Pantera thing. Same as ManOwar.


----------



## youngthrasher9

Many brands focus waaay too heavily on versatility. IDGAF if it has 6 channels and voicing switches, if it’s twice the price of an amp with two or three channels that are more thought out, I’m never even going to consider it an option in my fantasies.

Also, the job of the EQ section is frequency control. Mesa is notorious for this. You shouldn’t need a second EQ section to change the characteristics of the tone you just created in the first.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

efiltsohg said:


> r u for real? Long and McQuade bought or drove every almost single better store out of business. Their prices are too high, their selection is awful, and their staff are morons
> 
> it's like saying walmart is awesome


Please do not argue. It is fine if you disagree, but I don't care for this thread to turn into two or more people bickering back and forth.


----------



## SSK0909

Matt08642 said:


> The Dimarzio/IBZ pickups in my 2550 are my favorite pickups in any guitar I own


I just recently tested some Ibanez V pickups against real Dimarzios. The V's don't sound inferior at all when you listen to the recording.


----------



## broj15

youngthrasher9 said:


> Also, the job of the EQ section is frequency control. Mesa is notorious for this. You shouldn’t need a second EQ section to change the characteristics of the tone you just created in the first.



I can't say I agree but I also can't say I disagree. Maybe I'm not super knowledgeable about Mesa amps or thier design choices, but your comment has gotten me interested in the topic. Iirc (and I could be wrong) aren't the low/mid/high knob on a Mark V in control of the frequencies in the first couple gain stages and then the graphic EQ is in control after the preamp and before the power amp? 

Either way, this is an interesting take and I think a good point of discussion.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

broj15 said:


> I can't say I agree but I also can't say I disagree. Maybe I'm not super knowledgeable about Mesa amps or thier design choices, but your comment has gotten me interested in the topic. Iirc (and I could be wrong) aren't the low/mid/high knob on a Mark V in control of the frequencies in the first couple gain stages and then the graphic EQ is in control after the preamp and before the power amp?
> 
> Either way, this is an interesting take and I think a good point of discussion.


I think the bass/mid/treble are pre gain stages, which is why the low end can end up mushy/flabby.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Richlite fretboards are awesome. Same attack as ebony or maple without the quirks of wood. And feels/looks slick, too. 

Id like to see more guitar companies use some composite materials with their products.


----------



## broj15

MASS DEFECT said:


> Richlite fretboards are awesome. Same attack as ebony or maple without the quirks of wood. And feels/looks slick, too.
> 
> Id like to see more guitar companies use some composite materials with their products.



I'm pretty sure Kramer used richlite for thier fret boards waaaaaay back when they made aluminum neck guitars. It's crazy that they tried it back in the day and then no other company picked it up again until recently.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

If folks took the time to learn the fundamentals of thier instruments, amps, etc. they'd be far happier with their gear.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> If folks took the time to learn the fundamentals of thier instruments, amps, etc. they'd be far happier with their gear.


And spent more time with their gear.


----------



## ElRay

broj15 said:


> People have been shredding & riffing way harder than people on this forum long before fanned frets were even a thought. Modern guitars are engineered beyond most of our abilities to play.


You didn't answer the question. The purpose of multiple scale lengths (which go back before shredding & riffing (and household electricity) ever existed) is to allow a winder range of tuning without resorting to unplayably thick/thin/tight/lose strings. No amount of practice can overcome the laws of physics.

So, I ask again, how can practice compensate for scale length and string gauge?

And before you argue: "It's a matter of opinion!". It's not. You can have the opinion that w/ sufficient practice you can hold your breath for an hour or with enough practice you can power a 150 watt amp for an entire gig with nothing more than a balloon and a fuzzy sweater, but that doesn't make it possible.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Friedmans are some of the most boring amps I've ever heard. Someone put it perfectly on here once: they are like Marshalls for people scared of high end.

A single long scale guitar offers pretty much all the benefits of a multi-scale if you are willing to get a custom string gauge (and for 7 strings that's a must for me anyways), and you can play chords normally instead of like some kind of gnarl-handed raptor.

SGs are the shit, some of the best playing instruments ever made (not sure how unpopular that is here, honestly). 

There is no true _design _or _engineering _when it comes to 99% of gear out there, just minor tinkering with existing concepts. Someone already made the comment that most boutique stuff is just a modded Marshall, but I think it goes further, most GEAR is just some slightly tweaked version of something else (guitars themselves being maybe the only are where this isn't the case). Buy yourselves a book on amp circuits, learn how to replace capacitors and resistors, stop paying $4k for someone else to do it


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Here's an unpopular opinion...especially for this forum.

Gear doesn't fucking matter. Get a damn functional guitar that you enjoy, plug it into a functional amp that you enjoy and play.

Nobody gives a shit what you have or play through besides gear nerds..nobody in the crowd can tell the damn difference between a custom Diezel and a Crate solid state. Nobody can tell what tubes you're using or what pickups you have. In the studio, anything could be anything so even there it matters just slightly.

It doesn't fucking matter. NONE of that shit matters.

If you're worth anything you can make low end gear sound good. If you need expensive stuff then the problem is you, not the gear.


----------



## Jon Pearson

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion...especially for this forum.
> 
> Gear doesn't fucking matter. Get a damn functional guitar that you enjoy, plug it into a functional amp that you enjoy and play.
> 
> Nobody gives a shit what you have or play through besides gear nerds..nobody in the crowd can tell the damn difference between a custom Diezel and a Crate solid state. Nobody can tell what tubes you're using or what pickups you have. In the studio, anything could be anything so even there it matters just slightly.
> 
> It doesn't fucking matter. NONE of that shit matters.
> 
> If you're worth anything you can make low end gear sound good. If you need expensive stuff then the problem is you, not the gear.




Someone had a big bowl of Edgy-Os for breakfast this morning...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Jon Pearson said:


> Someone had a big bowl of Edgy-Os for breakfast this morning...


 If telling people that gear isn't important is edgy, then sure.


----------



## TedEH

I basically said the same thing on a previous page, just with fewer f-bombs.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> I basically said the same thing on a previous page, just with fewer f-bombs.


Going back and reading it...I suppose it did seem aggressive. It wasn't meant to be directed at this page..and I'm just naturally foul mouthed, so yeah..Lol


----------



## Jon Pearson

TedEH said:


> I basically said the same thing on a previous page, just with fewer f-bombs.



Yeah I think that was more what I was referring to than anything, the conviction with which he said it, seemed a little excessive to me given that his point was none of this matters - why so tense then? Relax, kick off the shoes, ease into that unpopular opinion post...


----------



## prlgmnr

MaxOfMetal said:


> If folks took the time to learn the fundamentals of thier instruments, amps, etc. they'd be far happier with their gear.


I was about to take my new Haar strat to a tech to have the bridge set up to float (it came decked to the body and while it was alright and sounded good, a true strat trem needs to float), and I thought no, I'm not a complete ignoramus, I can do this. Looked up a guide, looked up another guide, found the consensus on what to do with the 6 screws, learned and then learned to ignore the Carl Verheyen angled claw thing and an hour or so later I've got it just where I wanted, nice and smooth, not quite at Vigier levels of tuning stability but certainly good enough and I feel like a big boy rather than someone who needs to pay a tech for everything that needs doing.

To get on the topic for the page, I'm inclined to agree that people don't _need_ high end gear, but I buy guitars and amps and associated things because I want them, not because I've convinced myself I have to have them.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Everyone should know how metronome works and use one often.

Traditional guitar cabs are crap speaker systems and I can't wait to not have to listen to them in a room. (unless I can get to just the right spot where they aren't either shrill and awful or boomy and awful, then its fine as long the guitarist on stage doesn't change anything and nobody between me and the cab moves at all)

Modern metal tones aren't great in solo, but they're much better in a band context than retro scooped tones. It is fun watching dudes hammering away on their guitar and not hearing any of it, though.


----------



## Choop

Jon Pearson said:


> SGs are the shit, some of the best playing instruments ever made (not sure how unpopular that is here, honestly).



My SG is my favorite guitar that I own! :B They're pretty popular, just not so much with modern djent-bois metal I guess.


----------



## Seabeast2000

> Gear doesn't fucking matter. Get a damn functional guitar that you enjoy, plug it into a functional amp that you enjoy and play.
> 
> Nobody gives a shit what you have or play through besides gear nerds..nobody in the crowd can tell the damn difference between a custom Diezel and a Crate solid state. Nobody can tell what tubes you're using or what pickups you have. In the studio, anything could be anything so even there it matters just slightly.
> 
> It doesn't fucking matter. NONE of that shit matters.
> 
> If you're worth anything you can make low end gear sound good. If you need expensive stuff then the problem is you, not the gear.



Isn't this the spoken lyrics part from a Tool song?


----------



## Jon Pearson

Choop said:


> My SG is my favorite guitar that I own! :B They're pretty popular, just not so much with modern djent-bois metal I guess.




Yeah, I have a couple band mates who both turn their nose up at my SG as if it was spoiled or something... Like bruh, how are you going to deny the greatness


----------



## MaxOfMetal

prlgmnr said:


> I was about to take my new Haar strat to a tech to have the bridge set up to float (it came decked to the body and while it was alright and sounded good, a true strat trem needs to float), and I thought no, I'm not a complete ignoramus, I can do this. Looked up a guide, looked up another guide, found the consensus on what to do with the 6 screws, learned and then learned to ignore the Carl Verheyen angled claw thing and an hour or so later I've got it just where I wanted, nice and smooth, not quite at Vigier levels of tuning stability but certainly good enough and I feel like a big boy rather than someone who needs to pay a tech for everything that needs doing.
> 
> To get on the topic for the page, I'm inclined to agree that people don't _need_ high end gear, but I buy guitars and amps and associated things because I want them, not because I've convinced myself I have to have them.



Good on you for giving it a go. You'll get much better and much faster before you know it. 

Discovering who to and, more importantly who _not_ to listen to first hand is so powerful.


----------



## lewis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion...especially for this forum.
> 
> Gear doesn't fucking matter. Get a damn functional guitar that you enjoy, plug it into a functional amp that you enjoy and play.
> 
> Nobody gives a shit what you have or play through besides gear nerds..nobody in the crowd can tell the damn difference between a custom Diezel and a Crate solid state. Nobody can tell what tubes you're using or what pickups you have. In the studio, anything could be anything so even there it matters just slightly.
> 
> It doesn't fucking matter. NONE of that shit matters.
> 
> If you're worth anything you can make low end gear sound good. If you need expensive stuff then the problem is you, not the gear.


playing devils advocate - man comes to internet forum specifically to discuss guitars and gear, moaning that people are discussing gear? haha

be like me walking around a Music Store, pointing out everything in there you DONT need to buy


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

lewis said:


> playing devils advocate - man comes to internet forum specifically to discuss guitars and gear, moaning that people are discussing gear? haha
> 
> be like me walking around a Music Store, pointing out everything in there you DONT need to buy



Discussing experiences with gear, and discussing features relevant to your needs is different than the perpetual GAS generating and the idea that tonal happiness is just one more purchase away.

Not saying this group does this..just saying in general. And to be fair, most people DON'T need all the shit they see in guitar stores. That's why I prefer to go in, get what I need and get out instead of allowing myself to go down the rabbit hole of finding reasons to buy unnecessary things.


----------



## Demiurge

There is that point where playing music and collecting gear become two divergent hobbies.


----------



## Jeff

Masoo2 said:


> 3: I don't get how you can listen to djent and call it "not metal" but listen to something like Black Sabbath and claim it to be as metal as can be. not saying _you_ specifically call Black Sabbath metal, but many of the people who make the claim about djent not being metal are the same types to call Black Sabbath, Led Zepplin, etc metal when to me personally nothing about them stands out as metal (or hell even doom metal), just slow hard rock.



The topic is “unpopular opinions on gear” not “Opinions that cause me to fail at life”.


----------



## Masoo2

Jeff said:


> The topic is “unpopular opinions on gear” not “Opinions that cause me to fail at life”.


I know man I just had to bring it up haha, I hate seeing dudes go around all about like "this ain't real metal" "this ain't trve enough" but dude like if you're gonna pull the "djent's not metal card" like at least back it up with something that _is_ metal, I see the same people _far_ too often reference the most "non-metal" metal bands possible but then claim that djent isn't metal. like dude, if your stoner or "doom-lite" (not talking Sunn-tier) or "progressive to the point that it's not even moshable and doesn't use distorted guitar tones" or "so kvlt it sounds like a punk record recorded in a mom's basement" band is considered metal, djent can be considered metal.

I'll add another gear opinion: for those of us who deal exclusively with chain music stores, it's often better to just order online and return it if you don't gel with the instrument rather than try one out in store only to be disappointed with how it feels due to the slimy neck, rusted strings, and buckled setup. as much as I want to love the PRS SE Mark Holcomb, man that GC floor model did _not_ do the guitar any favors in my eyes so I've still yet to order one and try it out for myself.


----------



## Jeff

Masoo2 said:


> I know man I just had to bring it up haha, I hate seeing dudes go around all about like "this ain't real metal" "this ain't trve enough" but dude like if you're gonna pull the "djent's not metal card" like at least back it up with something that _is_ metal, I see the same people _far_ too often reference the most "non-metal" metal bands possible but then claim that djent isn't metal. like dude, if your stoner or "doom-lite" (not talking Sunn-tier) or "progressive to the point that it's not even moshable and doesn't use distorted guitar tones" or "so kvlt it sounds like a punk record recorded in a mom's basement" band is considered metal, djent can be considered metal.
> 
> I'll add another gear opinion: for those of us who deal exclusively with chain music stores, it's often better to just order online and return it if you don't gel with the instrument rather than try one out in store only to be disappointed with how it feels due to the slimy neck, rusted strings, and buckled setup. as much as I want to love the PRS SE Mark Holcomb, man that GC floor model did _not_ do the guitar any favors in my eyes so I've still yet to order one and try it out for myself.



Genres usually go like this, and it’s true for most metal: original 2-3 bands pretty damn good, even if it’s not your taste. Then all copycats are shit. It was true for “hair metal”, grunge, late 90’s hard rock, nu Metal, metalcore, and then djent.


----------



## sirbuh

TheInvisibleHand said:


> 3: Djent is neither progressive nor metal. Admittedly, not gear related, but it seems that this particular genre is so damn pretentious about the gear they choose that one can safely assume they'll buy a bunch of shit they don't need in order to pursue a sound that isn't desirable to begin with.



at this point its a bankrupt genre that mainly operates at the Instagram influencer level


----------



## Matt08642

sirbuh said:


> at this point its a bankrupt genre that mainly operates at the Instagram influencer level



That's what happens when the whole genre is about how tight and clanky you can get your noise gate.

I always look at it like this: Meshuggah had that sound in their music as a natural expression of the songs they wrote. The sound originated because they said "Let's play these notes to this rhythm"

People afterwards approached it as "Wow the tone they got on that one section was sick, lets write an album based on that sharp tone + some clank!"

Even bands like Periphery who were heavily accused of this have shifted far away from that


----------



## sakeido

efiltsohg said:


> r u for real? Long and McQuade bought or drove every almost single better store out of business. Their prices are too high, their selection is awful, and their staff are morons
> 
> it's like saying walmart is awesome



Another opinion: if you need to ask questions of the people in the store, you're fucked and are about to waste a lot of money because you failed to do your research. There's no excuse for that in the internet era.

Walmart is also very cheap? Comparison just don't work. Problem might be you, guy 



MASS DEFECT said:


> Richlite fretboards are awesome. Same attack as ebony or maple without the quirks of wood. And feels/looks slick, too.
> 
> Id like to see more guitar companies use some composite materials with their products.



All the guitars with the most interesting, forward looking futuristic materials look stupid as possible. I say that as a Parker owner but seriously, Aristides and Flaxwood, the fuck are you guys thinking?


----------



## Lozek

I don't like 5150's. I like the guitar sound on plenty of records that were recorded on them, but every time I play one......nah.


----------



## Emperoff

Lozek said:


> I don't like 5150's. I like the guitar sound on plenty of records that were recorded on them, but every time I play one......nah.



Before you get banned from this board, I'll say I have the exact same feelings about EMG-81s.


----------



## Thaeon

This thread has been a blast to read. I wish we could keep other threads as light hearted when there are literal pages of hot takes and shit posts. But I guess that's the point here. Do your worst and we'll all have a good laugh.



wheresthefbomb said:


> - reverb before distortion (into more reverb)
> 
> - headless guitars are ugly, so are parker guitars, so are dingwall basses. actually most ERGs are ugly, and the djentier and stringier they are the uglier they tend to be. sorry I don't make the rules.
> 
> - the correct amount of distortion is generally the absolute least amount possible, actually probably less than that, there you go, which seems to be a very unpopular perspective with the "metal" guitarists I end up in bands with.



I'm fine with people thinking my guitars are Uggo. I got them for me, and I like ugly guitars. My Oni I guess falls into that category. Though I think its a beautiful instrument. I don't use it for Djent though. I have no interest in playing that genre.



efiltsohg said:


> v30s are actively unpleasant sounding, especially the mesa ones
> 
> (certain) solid state amps are perfectly fine - they have this damping factor that tubes can never match, which sounds great for specific music styles
> 
> basically every "boutique" amp has nothing special about it, they are almost all hotrodded marshalls, which you can find countless other examples of for like 400$



V30s are hot garbage. There are lots of great solid state amps. Starting at or around the time of the release of the Roland JC 120.

And Marshall amps are a copy of a Fender. Which is a copy of a radio circuit. Do all guitar amps sound like AM radios? Sure a the design of the Herbert is similar to a 5150. But a 5150 doesn't have multiple FX loops, MIDI, headroom, and the build quality of the Herbert. Also, the 5150 pops a tube and goes down. The Herbert does not.



oniduder said:


> i really disliked every diezel i've ever owned, don't sound good
> 
> herbert, vh4 i assume the other varieties are similar so whatever
> 
> but the vh4 i found particularly disappointing, and i think i may be one of the few who doesn't really care for marshall-esque tones, some i like others or most i find lacking
> 
> in ways i can't describe, because i suck at life



I love them. But, mine did take some adjusting to. They are definitely in the Marshall camp though. If that's not your thing, then I doubt anything they make will connect. They have a character in the low mids that is distinctive. I can see it being a love it or hate it thing.



lewis said:


> Boss pedals are criminally underrated. Things like the SD1 is still one of the most awesome and appropriate sounding OD/Boosts on the market for High Gain and to make things better, one of the cheapest too.
> Also, things like the Boss Delay to my ears (and others when I was recoding an album) destroyed my Carbon Copy Delay.



I bought a BOSS delay over a Timeline because I thought it sounded better.



broj15 said:


> *takes deep breath*
> 
> - Modellers will always be chasing tube amps.
> - Solid state isn't always synonymous with bad.
> - Lo Pro edge > original edge >>>>> OFR.
> -The guitar market is severely over saturated.
> - clip on tuners are for bedroom warriors & amateurs. If I see someone using one at a show I probably won't take them seriously.
> - there's no such thing as *good bedroom tone.*
> - anything more than an 8 string is excessive.
> - obsessing over tone is usually overcompensation for a lack of skill.
> - triggered/sampled drums are trash & made me hate modern death metal.
> - TOM style bridges *can suck when done wrong.*
> - thick baseball bat necks *are amazing on 6 string guitars.*
> - *Kiesel* makes guitars for spec sheet queens.
> - clean blend/mix knobs should be standard on
> literally every dirt pedal.
> - I don't like tube screamers.
> - insanely high output pickups sound bad.i
> - a vintage amp pushed to it's limit sounds better than a modern voiced "metal" amp *if that's the tone you want.*
> - if fender and Gibson can't come up with any new ideas then they should both just quit.
> - burl tops look like a horror show from a gas station toilet.
> - you don't need fanned frets. *But they do mitigate some issues associated with smaller hands, and tone on the high strings.*
> - clean amp + a GOOD dirt pedal > amp gain *sometimes.*
> 
> That's all I've got for now, but I'm sure I'll think of more.
> 
> Disclaimer: these are hot takes and meant to be inflammatory.



Edited for reasons of completeness and accuracy of information.



youngthrasher9 said:


> -Eminence speakers are more of a standout choice than Celestion



This has also been my experience.



Winspear said:


> More an observation than an unpopular opinion, but the popular boutique styles in the doom/drone guitar scene happen to have better construction/access designs than shredder guitars  Prettymuch down to the legacy of Travis Bean (perhaps inspired by the SG?)



ECG and Millimetric have amazing designs.



Necky379 said:


> I just don’t think it’s necessary or a sound I particularly care for. People see my settings and think I’m scooped but you can’t hear a tone by looking at knobs it doesn’t work that way. It’s more open and wide sounding with the mids down. I honestly think I’d have a hard time dialing in a sound that _doesn’t _cut with boosted 5150’s, V30’s and greenback cabs. The only time I raise that knob is if I’m going through G12T’s.



Probably because everything in that chain hypes mids to a degree. Same idea as scooping the mids in the GEQ on a Mark Series.



Emperoff said:


> This band popped right after the video @lewis posted. Not sure if it was the one you meant but the tone of the tattoed guy is the most horrid one I've ever heard, which also matches your description.




I can't stand Polyphia. The music is contrived, the tones clearly suck, and the players act like pretentious asshats.



Masoo2 said:


> 3: I don't get how you can listen to djent and call it "not metal" but listen to something like Black Sabbath and claim it to be as metal as can be. not saying _you_ specifically call Black Sabbath metal, but many of the people who make the claim about djent not being metal are the same types to call Black Sabbath, Led Zepplin, etc metal when to me personally nothing about them stands out as metal (or hell even doom metal), just slow hard rock. however, I prefer the more overarching definition of metal that includes metalcore and the early pioneers rather than narrowing it down into a specific set of requirements. metal is already niche enough, don't hurt the genre even more by debating whether or not X genre or Y band is metal. that's why I hate Metal Archives, they're about as pretentious and uptight about "what's trve metal" as one can get.



Honestly, Sabbath IS metal. They're the original. Elvis was arguably the first Rock artist, however I'd say The Beatles hold the initial working artist, break the rules, fuck you we do it our way and write it ourselves. work ethic of Rock and maybe Johnny Cash too. None of those artists sound as heavy as rock music does now. That doesn't change what they are though. I'd actually be more inclined to classify modern heavy music as not metal and something else. Because it has less in common with blues now and more in common with classical, 20th century music, and jazz than with its own roots. The only real similarities are in timbre. And only sometimes.



MASS DEFECT said:


> Richlite fretboards are awesome. Same attack as ebony or maple without the quirks of wood. And feels/looks slick, too.
> 
> Id like to see more guitar companies use some composite materials with their products.



Love Richlite and would like to see a lot more sustainable options for guitars.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion...especially for this forum.
> 
> Gear doesn't fucking matter. Get a damn functional guitar that you enjoy, plug it into a functional amp that you enjoy and play.
> 
> Nobody gives a shit what you have or play through besides gear nerds..nobody in the crowd can tell the damn difference between a custom Diezel and a Crate solid state. Nobody can tell what tubes you're using or what pickups you have. In the studio, anything could be anything so even there it matters just slightly.
> 
> It doesn't fucking matter. NONE of that shit matters.
> 
> If you're worth anything you can make low end gear sound good. If you need expensive stuff then the problem is you, not the gear.


[/QUOTE]

Gear can't make you sound good. Correct. But it can inspire your creativity and make you want to spend more time with your craft. Its a bit of a double edged sword.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jon Pearson said:


> Friedmans are some of the most boring amps I've ever heard. Someone put it perfectly on here once: they are like Marshalls for people scared of high end.




Verifiably false.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Discussing experiences with gear, and discussing features relevant to your needs is different than the perpetual GAS generating and the idea that tonal happiness is just one more purchase away.
> 
> Not saying this group does this..just saying in general. And to be fair, most people DON'T need all the shit they see in guitar stores. That's why I prefer to go in, get what I need and get out instead of allowing myself to go down the rabbit hole of finding reasons to buy unnecessary things.


It's FOMO -- fear of missing out. In this case, FOMO on JATS -- just another Tube Screamer.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Verifiably false.




But on which count, the boringness or the treble?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jon Pearson said:


> But on which count, the boringness or the treble?


Both.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Both.



Hey man, if you want to spend $3k plus for that, it's all you. It doesn't even get a wiggle out of my bits, alls I'm saying.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jon Pearson said:


> Hey man, if you want to spend $3k plus for that, it's all you. It doesn't even get a wiggle out of my bits, alls I'm saying.


I have a VHT Sig:X, so it's safe to say that the BE-100 would be a bit superfluous.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I have a VHT Sig:X, so it's safe to say that the BE-100 would be a bit superfluous.



I think you have the better amp now anyways

The Sig:x is pimp deluxe for sure


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jon Pearson said:


> I think you have the better amp now anyways


I like the Metaltronix, which I think will get you more or less in the BE-100 / Friedman ballpark anyways.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I like the Metaltronix, which I think will get you more or less in the BE-100 / Friedman ballpark anyways.



Lee Jackson was the man, no doubt. I've never heard one in person, but I bet it's sick as hell.

Edit: I guess I should say "is," don't think he has passed.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jon Pearson said:


> Lee Jackson was the man, no doubt. I've never heard one in person, but I bet it's sick as hell.
> 
> Edit: I guess I should say "is," don't think he has passed.


He reissued the amp that Zakk and Akira used recently.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He reissued the amp that Zakk and Akira used recently.



No kidding? And just when I had a hope of saving some money for a while...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jon Pearson said:


> No kidding? And just when I had a hope of saving some money for a while...


Yeah. It is probably built by the same company that does the "new" SLO.


----------



## BenjaminW

When it comes to Metallica tones, everybody pretty much flocks to the tones of the first four albums, but the tone on Hardwired is killer as fuck and is criminally underrated in my opinion.


----------



## oneblackened

GunpointMetal said:


> Traditional guitar cabs are crap speaker systems and I can't wait to not have to listen to them in a room. (unless I can get to just the right spot where they aren't either shrill and awful or boomy and awful, then its fine as long the guitarist on stage doesn't change anything and nobody between me and the cab moves at all)


Trust me when I say you don't want to hear a guitar amp through a full range speaker system. It's not pretty.


----------



## Wrecklyss

oneblackened said:


> Trust me when I say you don't want to hear a guitar amp through a full range speaker system. It's not pretty.



Full range speaker systems don't flatter guitars tone or work well with tube amps (internal crossover networks cause fluctuations in impedance outside of what tube amps are built for), but mid-bass drivers from full range systems can be amazing guitar drivers. Electro-Voice, JBL, and B&C all make 10, 12, and 15 inch drivers that sound killer with guitar amps in mid to large closed back cabinets.


----------



## oneblackened

Wrecklyss said:


> Full range speaker systems don't flatter guitars tone or work well with tube amps (internal crossover networks cause fluctuations in impedance outside of what tube amps are built for), but mid-bass drivers from full range systems can be amazing guitar drivers. Electro-Voice, JBL, and B&C all make 10, 12, and 15 inch drivers that sound killer with guitar amps in mid to large closed back cabinets.


That's because guitar speakers are more or less really low fidelity mid-bass drivers.


----------



## GunpointMetal

oneblackened said:


> Trust me when I say you don't want to hear a guitar amp through a full range speaker system. It's not pretty.


 Oh I know, I've accidently disabled cab sims working with modelers through LOUD PA rigs. I'll take a couple 10" or 12" powered wedges with cab sims over a real cab any day. Spread is much more even, the sound on stage is more or less the sound out front, t0An isn't dependent on volume or my location from my cab, no concerns about FOH mic'ing it poorly, etc etc etc. Guitar cabs work for guitar because they roll off extreme low and high end, guitar amps are designed for guitar cabs so they exaggerate a lot of those frequencies in the preamp stage knowing the cabinet with filter them out appropriately. But, guitar amps are awful speaker systems in general, with the beaminess/directionality. The cabinets (for the most part) aren't sized with any sort of consideration for the function of the drivers, just to get however many are desired into a portable box. I'm hoping someone (L6, Fractal, Neural DSP) starts thinking of NEW ways to amplify and process guitar sounds versus just making old sounds more portable/consistent besides having the guitar be the controller for an entirely different sound engine.


----------



## Mike_R

Out of a half dozen Seymour Duncan bridge pickups I have the Black Winter was the one I liked the least.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mike_R said:


> Out of a half dozen Seymour Duncan bridge pickups I have the Black Winter was the one I liked the least.


REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## gunch

Mike_R said:


> Out of a half dozen Seymour Duncan bridge pickups I have the Black Winter was the one I liked the least.



what did you like mostest


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

gunch said:


> what did you like mostest


JB, Distortion, Custom (of some variety) or possibly something with a magnet swap.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

This isn't exactly an unpopular gear opinion, but possibly unpopular (or at least divisive) nonetheless: Akira Takasaki could, quite possibly, be better than Eddie Van Halen and George Lynch, whom he is usually compared to ("He's the Japanese Eddie Van Halen meets George Lynch!").


----------



## Mike_R

gunch said:


> what did you like mostest



The OG Distortion. The BW sounded like a Distortion that got wet then rolled in a bucket of dirt and had this weird frequency spike that was not appreciated. I like a clean, hot signal going into the front of an amp- if I want any grit before the amp it is just a touch of overdrive.

The JB, Nazgul, Omega, and PATB2 were all better than the BW to my ear (while I didn't find the Nazgul to be all that versatile, it does what it does very well). I did prefer the BW neck to the Distortion neck. I still want to try something with an Alnico 8 magnet.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Mike_R said:


> The OG Distortion. The BW sounded like a Distortion that got wet then rolled in a bucket of dirt and had this weird frequency spike that was not appreciated. I like a clean, hot signal going into the front of an amp- if I want any grit before the amp it is just a touch of overdrive.
> 
> The JB, Nazgul, Omega, and PATB2 were all better than the BW to my ear (while I didn't find the Nazgul to be all that versatile, it does what it does very well). I did prefer the BW neck to the Distortion neck. I still want to try something with an Alnico 8 magnet.


Try the Distortion with an Alnico 8 of equal thickness (for those unaware, the Distortion uses a magnet that is roughly twice the thickness of a standard magnet that SD uses).


----------



## Mike_R

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Try the Distortion with an Alnico 8 of equal thickness (for those unaware, the Distortion uses a magnet that is roughly twice the thickness of a standard magnet that SD uses).



Any idea on how that compares to the Alternative 8? I also have been planning on swapping the ceramic mag on the PATB2 for an Alnico 8 to make a "Crazy 8", just haven't got around to it yet.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Mike_R said:


> Any idea on how that compares to the Alternative 8? I also have been planning on swapping the ceramic mag on the PATB2 for an Alnico 8 to make a "Crazy 8", just haven't got around to it yet.


I do not, actually. I know that an (I believe standard thickness) Alnico 8 in an JB (JB8) makes for a rather beastly pickup.


----------



## efiltsohg

Mike_R said:


> Any idea on how that compares to the Alternative 8? I also have been planning on swapping the ceramic mag on the PATB2 for an Alnico 8 to make a "Crazy 8", just haven't got around to it yet.



alt 8 is good in mahogany but it has a weird notched mid thing that makes it sound pretty lousy in some other woods


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> This isn't exactly an unpopular gear opinion, but possibly unpopular (or at least divisive) nonetheless: Akira Takasaki could, quite possibly, be better than Eddie Van Halen and George Lynch, whom he is usually compared to ("He's the Japanese Eddie Van Halen meets George Lynch!").



I actually called him the Japanese Eddie Van Halen meets Tony Iommi during the self-titled days.  He was rockin' the mustache.







Kinda unpopular; I wish he stuck with Mesa gear. I think he rocked a Mark III during the Lightning Strikes and Hurricane Eyes era and I always loved that sound.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I actually called him the Japanese Eddie Van Halen meets Tony Iommi during the self-titled days.  He was rockin' the mustache.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kinda unpopular; I wish he stuck with Mesa gear. I think he rocked a Mark III during the Lightning Strikes and Hurricane Eyes era and I always loved that sound.


I can't name a guitar tone, off hand, that he has had that was total shit or didn't show some sign of being great. He does sorta have a Kirk Hammett/Tony Iommi with a mustache vibe there.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I can't name a guitar tone, off hand, that he has had that was total shit or didn't show some sign of being great. He does sorta have a Kirk Hammett/Tony Iommi with a mustache vibe there.


I never really liked his tone he got during the Racing/Taboo era. I don't think he used his usual JMP1/Roger Mayer rig. He used a TSL or Modefour I think. On the more positive side, I really liked the sound he got with his JMP1 during the late '90s. Slave from Ghetto Machine is what made me want a JMP1.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never really liked his tone he got during the Racing/Taboo era. I don't think he used his usual JMP1/Roger Mayer rig. He used a TSL or Modefour I think. On the more positive side, I really liked the sound he got with his JMP1 during the late '90s. Slave from Ghetto Machine is what made me want a JMP1.


Roger Mayer? What'd he use?

It's not my favorite, but I don't hate it. Those Mode Fours were decent enough.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Roger Mayer? What'd he use?
> 
> It's not my favorite, but I don't hate it. Those Mode Fours were decent enough.



He used custom-made 6550-loaded power amps that he got in 1993 right before Heavy Metal Hippies. He pretty much used the JMP1 > RM6550 setup up until his Friedman endorsement, although as I said he did experiment a bit using other Marshalls like the TSL, Modefour, 2203RR, and JVM410.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jeez, those things are fucking tanks.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Just buy the damn strings. 

They're a consumable. You'll need more later. Don't agonize over them. Buy them, try them, move on if you don't like them.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just buy the damn strings.
> 
> They're a consumable. You'll need more later. Don't agonize over them. Buy them, try them, move on if you don't like them.


Lolwat?


----------



## binz

All non one-sided and non in-line 7-string headstocks are ugly. The sole exception being 8-strings and mayones regius (literally the only beautiful 3-3 and 3-4 headstocks). This is especially for 7 strings where they take the 6-string headstock and simply add a 4th on either side. I mean, look at this, this is just lazy (and fugly!):





Therefore, almost all Jackson and Schecter 7-strings are hideous. Sue me.


----------



## GunpointMetal

binz said:


> All non one-sided and non in-line 7-string headstocks are ugly. The sole exception being 8-strings and mayones regius (literally the only beautiful 3-3 and 3-4 headstocks). This is especially for 7 strings where they take the 6-string headstock and simply add a 4th on either side. I mean, look at this, this is just lazy (and fugly!):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore, almost all Jackson and Schecter 7-strings are hideous. Sue me.


Lol, how is this lazier than just making them a straight line? I want as little headstock as possible, especially on guitars with extra strings. Neck dive sucks!


----------



## ATRguitar91

binz said:


> All non one-sided and non in-line 7-string headstocks are ugly.


Ignoring the looks issue, don't one sided headstocks sometimes have lesser tuning stability? In my experience it seems about the same, but I wasn't sure if others have had different experiences.


----------



## Aliascent

I'm still convinced that the Ducan Designed HB105 should have been the regular Blackout, instead of the Blackout we got.


----------



## Thaeon

ATRguitar91 said:


> Ignoring the looks issue, don't one sided headstocks sometimes have lesser tuning stability? In my experience it seems about the same, but I wasn't sure if others have had different experiences.



There are some other things like sympathetic resonance behind the nut on the lower strings, especially on ERGs. I will always avoid a reverse inline headstock on a 7 or 8 because of this. Love the look. Also, on an extended scale guitar, I don't need anything making it unnecessarily longer. I prefer a straight-ish string pull, and some of the 3+4 designs are the way they are to keep the string pull as straight as possible. They're working with what works best for the guitar mechanically and designing around that.


----------



## Matt08642

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just buy the damn strings.
> 
> They're a consumable. You'll need more later. Don't agonize over them. Buy them, try them, move on if you don't like them.



But the tension on my e string will be .00034 grams off if I don't order these new obsidian core custom gauge strings from Finland!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Matt08642 said:


> But the tension on my e string will be .00034 grams off if I don't order these new obsidian core custom gauge strings from Finland!



Listen, brah. The only way to properly djent is with precisely 19.7620287528lbs of tension on the low B. That dude on YT wouldn't lie to me.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ESP "America" is lame as fuck compared to ESP Japan. Over there their signature artists get luthier masterpieces and over here we get the same dumbass shapes in some ugly color and a price hike. Fucking sucks.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Fuck, cancelling order from preTunedStrings.com now....


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just buy the damn strings.
> 
> They're a consumable. You'll need more later. Don't agonize over them. Buy them, try them, move on if you don't like them.


This just reminded of a seemingly unpopular gear-adjacent opinion:
Literally every single gear forum/FB Group/Reddit/ETC has a search function. There is almost no way you are the first person to ask a question, so try a search first before you start the 3,435,569th "wHicH sTRinGs foR dRoP E oN MY X-sCaLE 8-stRinG?!" thread.


----------



## Thaeon

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ESP "America" is lame as fuck compared to ESP Japan. Over there their signature artists get luthier masterpieces and over here we get the same dumbass shapes in some ugly color and a price hike. Fucking sucks.



Most likely because we're really conservative about guitar design here in the US. Those crazy guitars wouldn't sell.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Thaeon said:


> Most likely because we're really conservative about guitar design here in the US. Those crazy guitars wouldn't sell.



It's not like it's region locked. Americans can still order from the Japanese shop.

They're just completely different operations. The Japanese shops are an entire industry over there. While ESP USA is like five dudes making what most people want for almost half the price in some cases.

EDIT: H8 the tag system on comments here sometime.


----------



## potatohead33

RE: Not liking 5150's or 81's, or especially an 81 into a 5150


----------



## Necky379

Off with his potato head!!!!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

potatohead33 said:


> RE: Not liking 5150's or 81's, or especially an 81 into a 5150


I'd rather have an 85, thanks.


----------



## Moltar

I dislike tight low end for high gain death metal. I love when the low end breaks up. When done properly, it also adds a certain harmonic character to the higher mids which is where the clarity comes from. Also when done right it is extremely expressive based on how you pick and attack the strings, as well as muting. 

Most people want tight low end for clarity but I love the distorted crunchy smoosh in the bottom end. It gives me an opportunity to have some dynamics in what i'm playing, but not volume dynamics as it is still compressed to hell obviously.

Love Rat pedals and Rat variants obviously and they do the job so well for what I am trying to explain tone wise.


----------



## oneblackened

Moltar said:


> I dislike tight low end for high gain death metal. I love when the low end breaks up. When done properly, it also adds a certain harmonic character to the higher mids which is where the clarity comes from. Also when done right it is extremely expressive based on how you pick and attack the strings, as well as muting.
> 
> Most people want tight low end for clarity but I love the distorted crunchy smoosh in the bottom end. It gives me an opportunity to have some dynamics in what i'm playing, but not volume dynamics as it is still compressed to hell obviously.
> 
> Love Rat pedals and Rat variants obviously and they do the job so well for what I am trying to explain tone wise.


More bottom end early = more top end fizz in the distortion, somewhat counterintuitively.


----------



## Moltar

Yea the breakup in the low end causes such a neat amount of overtones in the upper mids it's really cool I love it, and tweaking it to get it just right as it's a fine line.


----------



## Masoo2

Focusrite Scarlett interfaces suck and have always sucked, only got popular due to marketing (which I and many of my friends fell for)

Their DI quality is atrocious and their drivers are probably the most unstable I've ever seen on an interface

Buy an Audient or Steinberg if you need a budget interface


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Masoo2 said:


> Focusrite Scarlett interfaces suck and have always sucked, only getting popular due to marketing
> 
> Their DI quality is atrocious and their drivers are probably the most unstable I've ever seen on an interface
> 
> Buy an Audient or Steinberg if you need a budget interface



I heard a comparison and yeah, I can agree. Focusrite vs Apogee and it's obvious which was better. But Audient compared vs Apogee was almost indistinguishable. 

I know Audient also has a cheaper line of interfaces called the EVO series. Hope they're as good as the ID series, just without the bells and whistles.


----------



## Masoo2

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I heard a comparison and yeah, I can agree. Focusrite vs Apogee and it's obvious which was better. But Audient compared vs Apogee was almost indistinguishable.
> 
> I know Audient also has a cheaper line of interfaces called the EVO series. Hope they're as good as the ID series, just without the bells and whistles.


that's what I'm hoping as well, put in an order for the EVO 4 today so hopefully it'll be comparable to my experience behind the ID22/44

smaller, bus powered, AND cheaper? exactly what I need given that all I require is a good DI, a decent XLR-in for my microphone, and a headphone out


----------



## Vyn

GunpointMetal said:


> *Everyone should know how metronome works and use one often.*
> 
> Traditional guitar cabs are crap speaker systems and I can't wait to not have to listen to them in a room. (unless I can get to just the right spot where they aren't either shrill and awful or boomy and awful, then its fine as long the guitarist on stage doesn't change anything and nobody between me and the cab moves at all)
> 
> Modern metal tones aren't great in solo, but they're much better in a band context than retro scooped tones. It is fun watching dudes hammering away on their guitar and not hearing any of it, though.



A good metronome is seriously THE best investment a musician of any instrument can make.


----------



## lewis

Masoo2 said:


> Focusrite Scarlett interfaces suck and have always sucked, only got popular due to marketing (which I and many of my friends fell for)
> 
> Their DI quality is atrocious and their drivers are probably the most unstable I've ever seen on an interface
> 
> Buy an Audient or Steinberg if you need a budget interface


THIS

Ive owned 2 (the 2nd was a replacement) and both have just been mostly shite

the main issue Ive had with mine, is the USB input is absolutely garbage and after a few months its so loose and unstable. Mine now clicks/pops/cuts out/lights flicker etc

pathetic.
My 2nd was a replacement for this issue and this one done the exact same.
If I was in the market for an interface now, i wouldnt touch Focusrite


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Masoo2 said:


> that's what I'm hoping as well, put in an order for the EVO 4 today so hopefully it'll be comparable to my experience behind the ID22/44
> 
> smaller, bus powered, AND cheaper? exactly what I need given that all I require is a good DI, a decent XLR-in for my microphone, and a headphone out



Lemme know if it's good.  I had a Behringer interface, but I gave it to someone since I wasn't using it.


----------



## Masoo2

lewis said:


> THIS
> 
> Ive owned 2 (the 2nd was a replacement) and both have just been mostly shite
> 
> the main issue Ive had with mine, is the USB input is absolutely garbage and after a few months its so loose and unstable. Mine now clicks/pops/cuts out/lights flicker etc
> 
> pathetic.
> My 2nd was a replacement for this issue and this one done the exact same.
> If I was in the market for an interface now, i wouldnt touch Focusrite


I've had two 2i4s with the same issues, one as a replacement for the first. My biggest problem other than the DI quality is the drivers, like I have it cutting out completely at least two times a day and half the time it's not when in my DAW but just doing something basic like watching a video or using Discord

Definitely sucks when my drivers go AWOL and I get a deafening piercing tone sent through my ear


----------



## Vyn

Masoo2 said:


> I've had two 2i4s with the same issues, one as a replacement for the first. My biggest problem other than the DI quality is the drivers, like I have it cutting out completely at least two times a day and half the time it's not when in my DAW but just doing something basic like watching a video or using Discord
> 
> Definitely sucks when my drivers go AWOL and I get a deafening piercing tone sent through my ear



I think it's a driver issue/build quality with the smaller interfaces - I've got the 18i20 and haven't had any issues with it. Then again the 18i20 also has it's own dedicated power lead as opposed to getting power from USB.


----------



## cyb

I have a 6i6 2nd gen, and while the drivers have been fine so far, I do find the DI quality to be...lacking.


----------



## lewis

Masoo2 said:


> I've had two 2i4s with the same issues, one as a replacement for the first. My biggest problem other than the DI quality is the drivers, like I have it cutting out completely at least two times a day and half the time it's not when in my DAW but just doing something basic like watching a video or using Discord
> 
> Definitely sucks when my drivers go AWOL and I get a deafening piercing tone sent through my ear


so true. The drivers are dreadful. I started using different ones instead (name escapes me) as I couldnt rely on the Focusrite ones.


----------



## Emperoff

If you guys are interested in the DI inputs of the Interface just get an audient. They all have JFET DIs that work pretty damn good. They have a bad rep about latency, but last time I checked I could track at 5,5ms (round trip latency) with no cracks or noises with my ID22.


Let's not derail this lovely thread, so here it goes another round: 

- VSTs are still miles away from the real thing feel-wise. They can sound similar, but the real thing always sounds drier and punchier compared to the smeared nature of VSTs.
- If people learnt how to properly use regular guitar controls and pickup selector they would need half of the channels/presets/etc.
- Parallel/Split sounds sounds like two cats f*cking in a chalkboard.
- Onboard preamps/EQs are fucking awesome. An EMG BTC can easily replace any tubescreamer (for what they're commonly used). Bass players are decades ahead from us.
- Buckeye tops look like vomit. Buckeye bursts look like clown vomit.
- Neodymium speakers are awesome. A 212 guitar combo at 17kg is a godsend.
- I've yet to see anything recorded with an 8 string that sounds good.


----------



## Boofchuck

This thread is unbridled heresy.


----------



## Necky379

I like some Behringer products (HM300, Truth monitors, TC Mimiq). I really like some others (SF300, TO800, XR18 Air).


----------



## narad

Thaeon said:


> Most likely because we're really conservative about guitar design here in the US. Those crazy guitars wouldn't sell.



They don't seem to sell too will over here either, with a handful of exceptions.


----------



## Thaeon

narad said:


> They don't seem to sell too will over here either, with a handful of exceptions.



Some of them just look super uncomfortable to play... I don't care how 'cool' a guitar looks if playing it causes discomfort. One of the major reasons I don't own a Les Paul. I don't want back problems.


----------



## Splenetic

Necky379 said:


> I like some Behringer products (HM300, Truth monitors, TC Mimiq). I really like some others (SF300, TO800, XR18 Air).



Agreed. I don't have any of their guitar gear but my audio interface is a Behringer UMC404HD which sounded better to my ears (and several other friends whom I had listen to comparisons) than my previous Presonus Audiobox 1818VSL. 

Also own a Behringer Neutron, and it's a friggin beast. They're making some killer moves in the synths market these days.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Thaeon said:


> One of the major reasons I don't own a Les Paul. I don't want back problems.



Same thing I said. Until I held an awesome sounding Les Paul Custom that is well over 11.2 lbs. My unpopular take on this, is the weight problem on LPs is overblown. If a skinny guy like Randy Rhoads can wield one, why can't I? The tone outweighs...um...the weight. lol

But they can definitely be unplayable to some people like me. No belly cut, thick necks, poor upper fret access, tuning and headstock problems. I just had to get around it because it sounded great.


----------



## spudmunkey

Vyn said:


> A good metronome is seriously THE best investment a musician of any instrument can make.



What ar eyour opinions of aspects/features that make for a "good" metronome? I can't believe there would be any that don't keep accurate time...  And I guess I never considered bells and/or whistles for a metronome.


----------



## budda

I've had my 2i4 for 6? years and haven't had any problems . Wonder if it's a windows vs. mac thing mostly? No idea.

I digress.

I'm still struggling to come up with unpopular gear opinions about actual pieces of gear. They're mostly philosophical .


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I had a 2I4 1st gen and yeah, went to shit eventually.


----------



## Thaeon

budda said:


> I've had my 2i4 for 6? years and haven't had any problems . Wonder if it's a windows vs. mac thing mostly? No idea.
> 
> I digress.
> 
> I'm still struggling to come up with unpopular gear opinions about actual pieces of gear. They're mostly philosophical .



I've been running a Focusrite Saffire for almost 10 years with no issues.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Oh I got one.

A Boss HM2 doesnt need to be boutique, have more than 4 knobs, or be over $150. Shit you only need one two knobs.







If you have spend like $250+ for a HM2 mod with 5 - 6 knobs, you're just trying to jerk your boutique pickle off.


----------



## Thaeon

MASS DEFECT said:


> Same thing I said. Until I held an awesome sounding Les Paul Custom that is well over 11.2 lbs. My unpopular take on this, is the weight problem on LPs is overblown. If a skinny guy like Randy Rhoads can wield one, why can't I? The tone outweighs...um...the weight. lol
> 
> But they can definitely be unplayable to some people like me. No belly cut, thick necks, poor upper fret access, tuning and headstock problems. I just had to get around it because it sounded great.



I just can't justify them. I've played some spectacular Les Pauls. Then I look at the price tag and just can't. I prefer the tone of a 25.5 or more scale anyway. My Suhr gets close enough withe the recessed TOM and string through body. It's only about 7.5lbs. Roasted body and neck. The only thing I've played that topped it is my Oni.


----------



## Thaeon

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Oh I got one.
> 
> A Boss HM2 doesnt need to be boutique, have more than 4 knobs, or be over $150. Shit you only need one two knobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have spend like $250+ for a HM2 mod with 5 - 6 knobs, you're just trying to jerk your boutique pickle off.



Not my kind of dilled mayonnaise...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Thaeon said:


> I just can't justify them. I've played some spectacular Les Pauls. Then I look at the price tag and just can't. I prefer the tone of a 25.5 or more scale anyway. My Suhr gets close enough withe the recessed TOM and string through body. It's only about 7.5lbs. Roasted body and neck. The only thing I've played that topped it is my Oni.



The best Les Pauls I've played so far never said Gibson on them. 
They either say ESP(LTD) or Hagstrom. So far my Swede, Ultra Max, and LTD AS-1 have been fucking amazing. I have a Super Swede too that sounds and feels amazing, but I think I need to give it a fret level to fix a slight twist in the neck.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Oh I got one.
> 
> A Boss HM2 doesnt need to be boutique, have more than 4 knobs, or be over $150. Shit you only need one two knobs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you have spend like $250+ for a HM2 mod with 5 - 6 knobs, you're just trying to jerk your boutique pickle off.


Waxing their corksniffer to some overpriced pedal booty.


----------



## Mike_R

spudmunkey said:


> What ar eyour opinions of aspects/features that make for a "good" metronome? I can't believe there would be any that don't keep accurate time...  And I guess I never considered bells and/or whistles for a metronome.



Very much interested in this as well, I've been using an app on my phone and all my pushed notifications I see when adjusting the metronome are killing the efficiency of my practice sessions.


----------



## Emperoff

Mike_R said:


> Very much interested in this as well, I've been using an app on my phone and all my pushed notifications I see when adjusting the metronome are killing the efficiency of my practice sessions.



I've been using this website for years. Never needed anything else:

https://www.imusic-school.com/en/tools/online-metronome/


----------



## Carl Kolchak

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Lemme know if it's good.  I had a Behringer interface, but I gave it to someone since I wasn't using it.


Splurge on a Sono.


----------



## cyb

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Oh I got one.
> 
> A Boss HM2 doesnt need to be boutique, have more than 4 knobs, or be over $150. Shit you only need one two knobs.
> 
> 
> If you have spend like $250+ for a HM2 mod with 5 - 6 knobs, you're just trying to jerk your boutique pickle off.



The prices for some of those clones are indeed stupid. coughlonewolfaudiocough

I'm perfectly happy with my pink plastic $30 Behringer.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Carl Kolchak said:


> Splurge on a Sono.



That's a lot of shit for what I wanna do. 



cyb said:


> The prices for some of those clones are indeed stupid. coughlonewolfaudiocough
> 
> I'm perfectly happy with my pink plastic $30 Behringer.



The LWA was exactly what I was thinking when I wrote that.  






This is too much shit to just sound like a chainsaw.


----------



## Necky379

This thread has been so civil and I don’t want to throw a wrench in it but I feel an unpopular opinion coming on. The LHWD is worth the price and the control options are useful. It’s the only HM-2 style pedal I have that sounds good with any amp. If I had to get rid of pedals the LHWD would be the last HM-2 I kept because I can always dial it in quick with anything.


----------



## Thaeon

Necky379 said:


> This thread has been so civil and I don’t want to throw a wrench in it but I feel an unpopular opinion coming on. The LHWD is worth the price and the control options are useful. It’s the only HM-2 style pedal I have that sounds good with any amp. If I had to get rid of pedals the LHWD would be the last HM-2 I kept because I can always dial it in quick with anything.



This offends me and I won’t tolerate it...


----------



## oracles

Necky379 said:


> This thread has been so civil and I don’t want to throw a wrench in it but I feel an unpopular opinion coming on. The LHWD is worth the price and the control options are useful. It’s the only HM-2 style pedal I have that sounds good with any amp. If I had to get rid of pedals the LHWD would be the last HM-2 I kept because I can always dial it in quick with anything.



Its not worth the price and Joe Anastasio is an A-grade asshole. Hes a hackjob at best who can't even operate a drill press in a straight line, let alone construct a pedal halfway decently. His products are overhyped, hes an all-round awful person and theres a reason hes been banned from almost every known group and forum there is. Anyone who threatens to send explosives to someone's house (as he has done on multiple occasions) is a terrible human and shouldn't be supported.


----------



## Necky379

A mod should remove my post if it doesn’t belong in an unpopular opinion thread. I didn’t mention Joe or the build quality, I can comment on both but maybe it would be best to just move along in this discussion.


----------



## potatohead33

Set neck guitars should always be 22 frets and neck thrus should always be 24 frets


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

potatohead33 said:


> Set neck guitars should always be 22 frets and neck thrus should always be 24 frets


Well, I have two "set-thrus" that are 24 frets, so bite me.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Ibanez makes generic, ugly ass guitars and the only thing they've done worth noting is the Iceman and Halberd


----------



## rokket2005

Not an opinion on gear, but I think there's so much awesome music from the past 40-50 years that we've never heard, and it's way more enriching to go back and explore that stuff than to just listen to the newest stuff coming out. I've picked up a bunch of stuff lately from guys like David Sylvian, Supertramp, Steely Dan, early Kansas, bands that I've heard before and grew up listening to the hits of but never really dug into.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

As a product of the gear used, I think "djent" guitar tones sound like absolute shit.


----------



## Wrecklyss

Carl Kolchak said:


> As a product of the gear used, I think "djent" guitar tones sound like absolute shit.



As a thought experiment, do you thing current status quo dent tones could be improved? What gear would enhance the dent playing technique?

I agree that the over compressed, aggressive gating wears on the ears pretty quickly, but if using different gear could yield more pleasing tones, I could become more than a fair-weather fan of the genre.


----------



## sleewell

haha, just made this


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Guitarists hate on "campfire/for the ladies" acoustic playing because they're insecure about thier own skill, having decided it's "lame" or "too easy" and skipped right to more "advanced" technique and not learning the basics.


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists hate on "campfire/for the ladies" acoustic playing because they're insecure about thier own skill, having decided it's "lame" or "too easy" and skipped right to more "advanced" technique and not learning the basics.



Not me. Got my lady that way


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Wonderwall. Lol


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists hate on "campfire/for the ladies" acoustic playing because they're insecure about thier own skill, having decided it's "lame" or "too easy" and skipped right to more "advanced" technique and not learning the basics.



Agree. 

Super Jumbo acoustics should all have mandatory fore arm bevels and pre-purchase counselling session for those that don't.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists hate on "campfire/for the ladies" acoustic playing because they're insecure about thier own skill, having decided it's "lame" or "too easy" and skipped right to more "advanced" technique and not learning the basics.


This reminds me of those 4chan friendzone memes.


----------



## Thaeon

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This reminds me of those 4chan friendzone memes.



Man, I had ladies constantly trying to get my attention because of an acoustic guitar. I didn’t even have to ask anyone out. I got asked to all the big events like Prom and homecoming. Don’t underestimate the power of a decent knowledge of current songs, chord progressions and a little rhythm. Especially if you learn some coffee house fingerstyle. Simon and Garkfunkle knew what they were doing.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists hate on "campfire/for the ladies" acoustic playing because they're insecure about thier own skill, having decided it's "lame" or "too easy" and skipped right to more "advanced" technique and not learning the basics.



Many a great night started with a party, an acoustic, and a bottle of Jack Daniels...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Thaeon said:


> Man, I had ladies constantly trying to get my attention because of an acoustic guitar. I didn’t even have to ask anyone out. I got asked to all the big events like Prom and homecoming. Don’t underestimate the power of a decent knowledge of current songs, chord progressions and a little rhythm. Especially if you learn some coffee house fingerstyle. Simon and Garkfunkle knew what they were doing.



Oh I wasn't disagreeing. I'm just reminded of those memes that basically boiled down to "Y U NO LIKE ME I PLAY GUITAR BETTERER"


----------



## Spicypickles

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists hate on "campfire/for the ladies" acoustic playing because they're insecure about thier own skill, having decided it's "lame" or "too easy" and skipped right to more "advanced" technique and not learning the basics.


This is a major flaw in my current relationship. She had a prior boyfriend that was a Beatles fanatic then we got together and she didn’t even know I played for months, then when she found out was like “yes!” until I showed her what I was into. It’s still a sore subject, 9 years later. I can’t play her favorite songs for a group of people (jack johnson, other lame shit). I know I can play them, I just don’t want to. Zero interest

Edit: I will say this though, I went through a spell of Texas/red dirt country tunes that were fun because it was more rock and roll stuff, and that definitely garnered interest from the female of the species, but I don’t like the contemporary stuff at all. It’s just so BORING.


----------



## LeftOurEyes

I'm not a fan of guitar plug-ins at all. Not that they can't sounds good, but I do not want to rely on my computer to play guitar. A computer always wants to update or have driver issues ect that to me kills my inspiration. Nothing worse than getting an idea in your head then it takes 10-20 minutes to get your rig going. I can see them being useful during a recording session or as just another tone to add to a recording like reamping and such, but to rely on them to jam all the time will never ever be for me.


----------



## Shask

LeftOurEyes said:


> I'm not a fan of guitar plug-ins at all. Not that they can't sounds good, but I do not want to rely on my computer to play guitar. A computer always want to update or have driver issues ect that to me kills my inspiration. Nothing worse than getting an idea in your head then it takes 10-20 minutes to get your rig going. I can see them being useful during a recording session or as just another tone to add to a recording like reamping and such, but to rely on them to jam all the time will never ever be for me.


When I play my amps, I can get lost for hours in riff city. When I play a computer, or even a modeler through FRFR systems, I get bored after like 15 minutes. I don't know what it is, but it just kills inspiration.


----------



## budda

Shask said:


> When I play my amps, I can get lost for hours in riff city. When I play a computer, or even a modeler through FRFR systems, I get bored after like 15 minutes. I don't know what it is, but it just kills inspiration.



Damn. I can play for hours so long as I can access reverb and delay. Amps or digital, same deal. And some days Im just not feeling it.

Unpopular gear opinion: (generally) you dont need big low end in your guitar tone, you need a bassist.


----------



## Spicypickles

I dial most low end out of my tone for a bassist (I have a bass)


----------



## lurè

I'm all about those scales, modes and stuff but in a campfire I couldn't play a song from start to finish not because i'm insecure but because i'm so lazy i haven't fully learned a song in its entirety.


----------



## Thaeon

Spicypickles said:


> This is a major flaw in my current relationship. She had a prior boyfriend that was a Beatles fanatic then we got together and she didn’t even know I played for months, then when she found out was like “yes!” until I showed her what I was into. It’s still a sore subject, 9 years later. I can’t play her favorite songs for a group of people (jack johnson, other lame shit). I know I can play them, I just don’t want to. Zero interest
> 
> Edit: I will say this though, I went through a spell of Texas/red dirt country tunes that were fun because it was more rock and roll stuff, and that definitely garnered interest from the female of the species, but I don’t like the contemporary stuff at all. It’s just so BORING.



What is not boring is how appreciated she would feel knowing how much you dislike her music but learning a song she likes anyway just because you know she likes it. The positive rewards for doing that stuff are endless.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

budda said:


> Damn. I can play for hours so long as I can access reverb and delay. Amps or digital, same deal. And some days Im just not feeling it.
> 
> Unpopular gear opinion: (generally) you dont need big low end in your guitar tone, you need a bassist.


Agreed. "I need a tube screamer, cuz too much bass." Meanwhile, the amp clearly has a bass knob that is usually at least at 1:00.


----------



## budda

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Agreed. "I need a tube screamer, cuz too much bass." Meanwhile, the amp clearly has a bass knob that is usually at least at 1:00.



Gotta pay attention to those short guitar-only bursts on albums and see what's up.


----------



## Emperoff

Most players nowadays seem terrified of turning the amp knobs further than noon. So they shape their tone with boosts, EQ pedals and other shit. Most of the time you see settings like 666, 465, etc. Nobody wants to turn the damn bass knob down.


----------



## Metropolis

Emperoff said:


> Most players nowadays seem terrified of turning the amp knobs further than noon. So they shape their tone with boosts, EQ pedals and other shit. Most of the time you see settings like 666, 465, etc. Nobody wants to turn the damn bass knob down.



It's different to shape it before pre amp, in the effects loop or after cab/mic. While I use lot of modelers I tend to hi-pass it at least 85Hz and balance low end after that with resonance and bass controls. Adding a gain stage before pre amp makes it cut better, EQ in the loop or after cab/mic is more like final shaping of tone. For example Dimebag used two EQ's before the pre amp as a boost, which is crazy, but that was part of his sound.


----------



## Spicypickles

Thaeon said:


> What is not boring is how appreciated she would feel knowing how much you dislike her music but learning a song she likes anyway just because you know she likes it. The positive rewards for doing that stuff are endless.


That was the basis in the beginning, learning SRV and Hendrix tunes, even the odd incubus song. Getting shit 9 years later for garbage music is just past my threshold, vagina be damned.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Unpopular? I can't say, but diming the presence, bass, mid, and treble on my amp sounds amazing.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

budda said:


> Gotta pay attention to those short guitar-only bursts on albums and see what's up.


Or isolated guitar tracks. Only good thing Guitar Hero has provided us.


----------



## Thaeon

Spicypickles said:


> That was the basis in the beginning, learning SRV and Hendrix tunes, even the odd incubus song. Getting shit 9 years later for garbage music is just past my threshold, vagina be damned.



Dude, after two divorces, happy wife, happy life. At least you’re able to make her happy with something that makes you happy. Also, there’s no such thing as bad music. I use pop music as a means of learn what makes music more widely accessible. I can experiment with Timbre. I think as artists we tend to over intellectualize stuff and forget why we do it in the first place. It’s fun and it’s expressing an idea. If people can’t understand what I’m expressing I’m not able to connect in my preferred way. I’m not saying don’t stimulate your musical mind. I’m saying expand the palette. Learn what is good about that stuff. I find shit to like in pop music all the time. Doesn’t mean Opeth or Meshuggah are any less brilliant or worth my attention.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

If your speakers (or something else in your rig) are just a bit too bright, you can try draping a shirt in front of it. It'll shave off some of the ice pick, but leave most of the definition.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If your speakers (or something else in your rig) are just a bit too bright, you can try draping a shirt in front of it. It'll shave off some of the ice pick, but leave most of the definition.



Bob Rock did this with James' cabs for the Black Album using a U-Haul furniture blanket.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

These?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> These?


I'm not sure. Apparently you can see it in that Year And a Half documentary.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm not sure. Apparently you can see it in that Year And a Half documentary.


Wonder if he put it over the speaker grill, or draped it over the mic set up to block sound in.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Wonder if he put it over the speaker grill, or draped it over the mic set up to block sound in.



just rewatched it and yeah, it was the latter.


----------



## Wrecklyss

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Wonder if he put it over the speaker grill, or draped it over the mic set up to block sound in.



This is a good way to live record. We use those $5 Harbor Freight blankets to block sounds we don't want mics to pick up.


----------



## c7spheres

Be careful with those blankets that they don't touch any tubes. They can catch fire or smolder.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

The testimonials of paid shills aside, preamp pedals are nothing more than glorified distortion pedals with bloated price tags and unconvincing tone sweeps.


----------



## Rex

Carl Kolchak said:


> The testimonials of paid shills aside, preamp pedals are nothing more than glorified distortion pedals with bloated price tags and unconvincing tone sweeps.


Totally disagree, at least my tight metal jr sounds way better than many of the metal amps that I've played.


----------



## Emperoff

Carl Kolchak said:


> The testimonials of paid shills aside, preamp pedals are nothing more than glorified distortion pedals with bloated price tags and unconvincing tone sweeps.



Fuck no. Actual preamp pedals have different output impedances and tube voltages over 300V with its corresponding transformers, several channels and no on-off switch. And I'm not talking about Revv, Xotic, Friedman, Airis or any other brands stamping the word "preamp" into their Tubescreamer clone box.

I'm talking about this:


----------



## Avedas

lurè said:


> I'm all about those scales, modes and stuff but in a campfire I couldn't play a song from start to finish not because i'm insecure but because i'm so lazy i haven't fully learned a song in its entirety.


I used to learn/play a ton of covers for the first few years as I was learning. I just wanted to play what my heroes were playing.

Nowadays, I can't stand learning other people's music lol. I still do "covers" when I play with friends or my music circle, but it's only loosely based around the original and almost 100% my own take on the part.


----------



## lurè

Avedas said:


> I used to learn/play a ton of covers for the first few years as I was learning. I just wanted to play what my heroes were playing.
> 
> Nowadays, I can't stand learning other people's music lol. I still do "covers" when I play with friends or my music circle, but it's only loosely based around the original and almost 100% my own take on the part.


I prefer a rearrangment or reinterpretation of a song then an actual cover; similar to The Sound of Silence by Nevermore or Painkiller by Death. You recognise that the song is from a totally different band but you can still hear the style of the band


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Carl Kolchak said:


> The testimonials of paid shills aside, preamp pedals are nothing more than glorified distortion pedals with bloated price tags and unconvincing tone sweeps.



There's a bit of truth in this. There's some distortion pedals out there being advertised as preamp pedals (looking at you Engl and Revv). They don't have the required output and voicing to run into a power amp or IRs, and end up sounding dark, wooly and weak.

OTOH, ACTUAL preamp pedals fucking rock, like ISP Theta and KSR Ceres.


----------



## Thaeon

Metropolis said:


> It's different to shape it before pre amp, in the effects loop or after cab/mic. While I use lot of modelers I tend to hi-pass it at least 85Hz and balance low end after that with resonance and bass controls. Adding a gain stage before pre amp makes it cut better, EQ in the loop or after cab/mic is more like final shaping of tone. For example Dimebag used two EQ's before the pre amp as a boost, which is crazy, but that was part of his sound.



He did have an identifiable sound, and played brilliantly. Tone was not one of his strengths though. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> There's a bit of truth in this. There's some distortion pedals out there being advertised as preamp pedals (looking at you Engl and Revv). They don't have the required output and voicing to run into a power amp or IRs, and end up sounding dark, wooly and weak.
> 
> OTOH, ACTUAL preamp pedals fucking rock, like ISP Theta and KSR Ceres.



The other guitar player in my band uses the Diezel VH2 Pre into his power amp and it sounds crazy good. ISP Theta sounds unreal too. I haven’t gotten my hands on anything KSR.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Eddie Van Halen's tone was only good because he's Eddie Fucking Van Halen. On its own, it's nothing special and, mostly, "meh".


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Thaeon said:


> He did have an identifiable sound, and played brilliantly. Tone was not one of his strengths though.


As time went on, sure. But Power Metal and Cowboys from Hell (even A Vulgar Display of Power to some extent) have killer tones. I think he also used a Flanger/doubler to boost his signal as well.



Thaeon said:


> The other guitar player in my band uses the Diezel VH2 Pre into his power amp and it sounds crazy good. ISP Theta sounds unreal too. I haven’t gotten my hands on anything KSR.


Is it the two channel VH4 pedal, or the one channel?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eddie Van Halen's tone was only good because he's Eddie Fucking Van Halen. On its own, it's nothing special and, mostly, "meh".


That'll probably be the most unpopular opinion with regards to tone on the internet, but perhaps not on this board. That said, his tone is great.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> That'll probably be the most unpopular opinion with regards to tone on the internet, but perhaps not on this board. That said, his tone is great.



Don't get me wrong, in the context of the songs and playing, it's great, but without the writing and raw skill, it falls apart, which can be said about a lot of tones.

I've been around enough rigs that fucking _nail_ his tone, but if the special sauce ain't there it's a no-go.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Don't get me wrong, in the context of the songs and playing, it's great, but without the writing and raw skill, it falls apart, which can be said about a lot of tones.
> 
> I've been around enough rigs that fucking _nail_ his tone, but if the special sauce ain't there it's a no-go.


Well, a subpar player can make anything sound less than ideal.


----------



## oneblackened

Oh, here's one that'd piss plenty of people on TGP etc off:

NOS tubes aren't worth the price differential over new production. Is an I63 Mullard actually 10+ times better than a JJ? Certainly not.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Thaeon said:


> The other guitar player in my band uses the Diezel VH2 Pre into his power amp and it sounds crazy good. ISP Theta sounds unreal too. I haven’t gotten my hands on anything KSR.



Diezel did the right thing by having two different outputs. One for in front of the amp, and a preamp out.

I'd like to check out the Hebert pedal, but it doesnt have a clean channel like the VH4/2 apparently has.

And yeah, the Theta is a killer as fuck pedal. I made a mistake by selling mine... twice.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Diezel did the right thing by having two different outputs. One for in front of the amp, and a preamp out.
> 
> I'd like to check out the Hebert pedal, but it doesnt have a clean channel like the VH4/2 apparently has.
> 
> And yeah, the Theta is a killer as fuck pedal. I made a mistake by selling mine... twice.


The VH4-2 does not have a clean channel. It has two dirty channels (I think channels 3 and 4 on the amp).


----------



## Emperoff

oneblackened said:


> Oh, here's one that'd piss plenty of people on TGP etc off:
> 
> NOS tubes aren't worth the price differential over new production. Is an I63 Mullard actually 10+ times better than a JJ? Certainly not.



Although I agree for the most part, preamp tubes are well worth it, IMO. I find it nonsensical for poweramp tubes that last much shorter, but for example a good current production 5751 tube (tested, etc) already runs over 20$. NOS variants can be had for 40$ (or cheaper if buying bulk) and will last A LOT longer so it's definetely worth it in the long run.

Now if you have a 5153 with like 11 tubes then the price escalates quickly


----------



## r33per

LP-shape and SG guitars. Ugly, clunky, boring. Single cutaway on an electric 

I'm sure that there's some song out there that I really like where one of these was played, but most of the "classic" sounds I hear with these guitars do not move me at all.


----------



## oneblackened

Emperoff said:


> Although I agree for the most part, preamp tubes are well worth it, IMO. I find it nonsensical for poweramp tubes that last much shorter, but for example a good current production 5751 tube (tested, etc) already runs over 20$. NOS variants can be had for 40$ (or cheaper if buying bulk) and will last A LOT longer so it's definetely worth it in the long run.
> 
> Now if you have a 5153 with like 11 tubes then the price escalates quickly


I mean, I have a few old production tubes (a couple GE 12AX7s, a few RFT ECC83s, a quad of Sylvania STR-415 6L6GCs and a pair of Sylvania fat bottle 6CA7s) but to be honest they aren't _that_ much better than any new production stuff I have. The medium plate JJ ECC83 (the MG variant) is a stupidly nice sounding tube.


----------



## Thaeon

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eddie Van Halen's tone was only good because he's Eddie Fucking Van Halen. On its own, it's nothing special and, mostly, "meh".



Agree. Eddie sounds like Eddie on anything. I can’t make any amp sound like he can. But I don’t have his technique.



Spaced Out Ace said:


> As time went on, sure. But Power Metal and Cowboys from Hell (even A Vulgar Display of Power to some extent) have killer tones. I think he also used a Flanger/doubler to boost his signal as well.
> 
> 
> Is it the two channel VH4 pedal, or the one channel?



Two Channel.


----------



## Emperoff

oneblackened said:


> I mean, I have a few old production tubes (a couple GE 12AX7s, a few RFT ECC83s, a quad of Sylvania STR-415 6L6GCs and a pair of Sylvania fat bottle 6CA7s) but to be honest they aren't _that_ much better than any new production stuff I have. The medium plate JJ ECC83 (the MG variant) is a stupidly nice sounding tube.



Yeah, I'm the first one that probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference if not A/B'd sequentially (and I might prefer newer tubes, lol). My comment was meant purely as a higher grade consumable product that lasts exponentially longer, being actually cheaper in the long run. Same reason I use Elixir strings. They are 3x the price, but they last 10x the time than regular strings.


----------



## Thaeon

Emperoff said:


> Yeah, I'm the first one that probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference if not A/B'd sequentially (and I might prefer newer tubes, lol). My comment was meant purely as a higher grade consumable product that lasts exponentially longer, being actually cheaper in the long run. Same reason I use Elixir strings. They are 3x the price, but they last 10x the time than regular strings.



I understand on the tubes.

I hate elixir strings. I hate how they sound. I hate how they feel.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I love elixirs. I get the nanowebs. The polywebs are too much coating.


----------



## Emperoff

Elixir Optiwebs (their newest product) are fucking awesome. If you don't like Elixir and you only tried their past models (Polyweb, Nanoweb), give them a try. I used D'addarios for like 15 years and the moment I tried them I became a convert.

On summer tours a D'addario set lasts me 2-3 shows before feeling buzzy. I had a guitar with the same Elixir set and strings looked and sounded great until they all started to break. *After a friggin' year.*


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I would love Elixirs but their gauge 12 set comes with a wrapped 3rd string. So, I'm stuck with Dunlop Heavy Cores. Love the tension.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

If you took a Peavey Ultra series amp, compressed it even more, sucked all the character out of it but added more low end, smoothed it out, added a bunch of knobs and features, shiny shit, and jacked up the price x5 you'd have an Engl amp.


----------



## USMarine75

99% of guitarists couldn't tell the difference between a good SS or tube amp. (e.g. the new Fender Tonemasters vs a 1965 DR)

They also couldn't tell the difference between a similar model $600 Epiphone LP vs a $7000 Gibson.

You don't need more than 50w (tube) if you play metal. Everyone says headroom, but then they only play distorted.

Small amps often sound better, especially single 8" 10" or 12", for cleans and overdrive. You only need a 4x12 to move air for metal or because you own a Marshall and it only sounds good (great) at 11.



MaxOfMetal said:


> Eddie Van Halen's tone was only good because he's Eddie Fucking Van Halen. On its own, it's nothing special and, mostly, "meh".



Tone is prob 66% rig and 33% player. And 1% how your ears are that day lol.

EVH sounds nearly the same with Marshall, Soldano, Peavey, and now EVH.

Greg Koch still sounded mostly like Greg Koch even with an Abasi guitar and whatever metal amp (not his Koch The Greg).

So yeah, in his hands and in a mix the VH brown sound is fantastic. In the hands of Johnny Nobody it's meh.


----------



## TedEH

USMarine75 said:


> the difference between a similar model $600 Epiphone LP vs a $7000 Gibson.


I dunno how unpopular an opinion that really is - I always thought it was widely accepted that music gear is one of the worst examples of the whole diminishing returns thing.

I don't know that I would agree with that number being quite 99% (although I'm sure you're exaggerating) - until you get all your guitars setup the same way. A good setup is the great equalizer.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

My biggest issue with Elixir is they don't make a 10 - 48 or 11 - 56 set.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

USMarine75 said:


> You only need a 4x12 to move air for metal or because you own a Marshall and it only sounds good (great) at 11.
> 
> Tone is prob 66% rig and 33% player. And 1% how your ears are that day lol.



The Marshall thing is funny. There seems to be this perception nowadays that the JCM800s are basically "grandpa" amps that really can't cut it in today's high gain world. Now admittedly they don't have massive amounts of gain on tap, but that situation is easily rectified by placing some kind of boost pedal in front of one. 

As for having to crank them to get them to sound good I can say this, I'm running mine with the preamp volume at 10 and the master volume really low. But then again I'm also using cab sims too, so...

"Tone is all in the fingers....."
I always thought this was a bs statement to begin with. Tone is all in the equipment. High gain heavy tones aren't gotten through clean amps. No amount of magic fingers hockus is going to make a Fender Reverb Deluxe sound like a cranked JCM800 with a ts in front of it. Obviously, any good guitarist can make an already good tone sound great, but even the best of them aren't going to be able to alter the physical reality gain staging. That said, tone is more like 90% gear and 10% technique.


----------



## Metropolis

Elixir Nanoweb strings sound dead out of the box compared to normal uncoated strings like D'addario XL or NYXL. Their tuning and intonation capabilities don't last longer than regular strings. Even if they stay uncorroded you would have to change them anyway because of that. Also their slippery feel is kind of off putting, it affects even to picking. I used them some time through the years but not anymore.

Dunlop Heavy Core and DR Dimebag Darrell signature sets were one of the worst strings I tried. Thick core wire makes them have awful lot of tension and generally stiff feel. They were like stiff Ernie Balls with scratchy feel.


----------



## Amenthea

I really don't like the tone out of Marshall's. It sounds thin and tinny to me, and I've never got a good sound out of one without a load of pedals either side.

Oh, and Gibson LP's are too heavy lol


----------



## vilk

So at one point in time, or probably on a different forum even still, the following gear opinion would have been popular. But based on what I've seen in this thread so far, it might qualify for unpopular around these parts. 


Modelers and solid state can sound just swell, but they don't sound like a tube amp. I've had SS amps most of my life, a beginner Marshall MG, a Randall RG, a Sunn Beta Bass... I've had an Amplifire modeler too, it sounded great! But even an Epiphone Valve Jr Combo (one of the cheapest tube amps you can find) sweeps the floor with any of them when it comes to that indescribable tonal quality that, apparently, can only come from a vacuum tube.


Honestly, I wish I didn't think so, but playing even a cheapo Vietnamese Marshall Origin series since shelter-in-place started, when I went to do some (socially distant, mask-clad) tone chasing with my bandmate last Friday with the Sunn Beta, I felt I couldn't go back to it. I used to tell myself it's not that different, and I felt reassured by the sort of comments I see all over this thread, the fact that professional bands still tour and record with them... but the clean sound is obviously different, the distorted sound is different, the way it responds to pedals is different... it just doesn't compare. Or if we_ have to_ compare, then it doesn't stack up. And I felt the same way about my Randall when I still had it, too. I'll say this: I might prefer a solid state amp if I were ever in an industrial / noise / nu metal / electronic / etc., type band where that stiff, abrasive feel adds to the atmosphere of the music. But for the sorta stuff I generally play, it detracts. People on here say "it's close enough that no one can tell", but to my ear, in person, it's night and day, at least with the gear I have personal experience with. Sure, someone in the crowd who doesn't know anything about guitar amplifiers wouldn't be able to say _Hey I don't hear no tube! _but if they were given the eye doctor test _which is better A or B?_, I think even a layman would choose the tube. Again, speaking about rock and 'classic' guitar tones. 

I still want a modeler just for the convenience and volume control (and to play along to songs with headphones on). I'm thinking about selling the Beta and using it to fund a HX Stomp to play at home, and then migrate the Marshall to the practice space.


----------



## lewis

Metropolis said:


> *Elixir Nanoweb strings sound dead out of the box* compared to normal uncoated strings like D'addario XL or NYXL. Their tuning and intonation capabilities don't last longer than regular strings. Even if they stay uncorroded you would have to change them anyway because of that. Also their slippery feel is kind of off putting, it affects even to picking. I used them some time through the years but not anymore.
> 
> Dunlop Heavy Core and DR Dimebag Darrell signature sets were one of the worst strings I tried. Thick core wire makes them have awful lot of tension and generally stiff feel. They were like stiff Ernie Balls with scratchy feel.



I mean Ive never had this and ive been using them for ages.
Ernie Balls die with me real quick because of my sweat and Elixir are noticeably more twangy/fresh sounding


----------



## Metropolis

lewis said:


> I mean Ive never had this and ive been using them for ages.
> Ernie Balls die with me real quick because of my sweat and Elixir are noticeably more twangy/fresh sounding



By dead I mean they have less high frequencies as new, but when strings age they stay fresh longer. Difference is subtle and not noticeable for everyone, but coating affects to their sound a little.


----------



## R34CH

USMarine75 said:


> They also couldn't tell the difference between a similar model $600 Epiphone LP vs a $7000 Gibson.



Oooooh, sick burn on Gibson.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MASS DEFECT said:


> I would love Elixirs but their gauge 12 set comes with a wrapped 3rd string. So, I'm stuck with Dunlop Heavy Cores. Love the tension.


Tuning down with a plain 3rd sounded so out of tune. I had to use wound thirds.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> My biggest issue with Elixir is they don't make a 10 - 48 or 11 - 56 set.


PLEASE message them for a 10-49 set. Then I can stop buying three sets. (18-28-38-49) I messaged them and the more emails and messages they get, the more likely they'll make them. Please!


----------



## Matt08642

USMarine75 said:


> Greg Koch still sounded mostly like Greg Koch even with an Abasi guitar and whatever metal amp (not his Koch The Greg).



I agree with most of this, but wasn't he using an Abasi tele style with Greg Koch signature Fishmans in it? That would likely help a lot lol


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Carl Kolchak said:


> The Marshall thing is funny. There seems to be this perception nowadays that the JCM800s are basically "grandpa" amps that really can't cut it in today's high gain world. Now admittedly they don't have massive amounts of gain on tap, but that situation is easily rectified by placing some kind of boost pedal in front of one.
> 
> As for having to crank them to get them to sound good I can say this, I'm running mine with the preamp volume at 10 and the master volume really low. But then again I'm also using cab sims too, so...
> 
> "Tone is all in the fingers....."
> I always thought this was a bs statement to begin with. Tone is all in the equipment. High gain heavy tones aren't gotten through clean amps. No amount of magic fingers hockus is going to make a Fender Reverb Deluxe sound like a cranked JCM800 with a ts in front of it. Obviously, any good guitarist can make an already good tone sound great, but even the best of them aren't going to be able to alter the physical reality gain staging. That said, tone is more like 90% gear and 10% technique.


You're referring to voicing.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> (...) and jacked up the price x5 you'd have an Engl amp.



If you live outside Europe, that is. Otherwise ENGLs retain its x1 cost. It's called importing. Do you know a Mesa JP2C is 4700$ here? I can buy two Diezels for that money.

Tone preferences aside, I can't understand how people are willing to pay twice the price for something that it's objectively not worth it. If a Marshall JVM costs 1500€ here and 3000€ in the US, you're paying 3000€ for a 1500€ amp no matter how you look at it.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Modelers/solid state can't FEEL like tubes when you're playing them. The biggest difference in SOUND is dependent on your speaker system. A digital/solid-state preamp into a tube power amp into a guitar speaker is gonna pretty much feel the same (anectdotally, from my personal experiments/experience). A modeler into a PA or headphones is never going to FEEL like playing a tube amp in the room with you. IME experience modelers excel at mic'd tones, and using them as preamps with solid-state power amps into guitar cabs is more of a bonus feature than the intended use, and they're more than "good enough" in that scenario as well. A lot of people confuse visceral experience with tone and then they can't tell the difference in a recorded clip. There's also the various ways people approach the instrument. For me, playing the right notes at the right time is more important than the sounds I'm using to reproduce them, and because of that I end up sounding almost the same through every rig - modeler, practice amp, big tube amp. Whereas some people are playing the amp almost as much as the guitar in the way the interact with the speaker. At the end of the day its down to different strokes, etc. I've more or less been working to completely avoid using a regular old guitar cab for almost 20 years now, because I hate how inconsistent they are depending on the space, stage construction, crowd size/proximity, etc. So for me a modeler actually FEELS better because I'm comfortable with what I'm hearing and how it is being reproduced. 


vilk said:


> So at one point in time, or probably on a different forum even still, the following gear opinion would have been popular. But based on what I've seen in this thread so far, it might qualify for unpopular around these parts.
> 
> 
> Modelers and solid state can sound just swell, but they don't sound like a tube amp. I've had SS amps most of my life, a beginner Marshall MG, a Randall RG, a Sunn Beta Bass... I've had an Amplifire modeler too, it sounded great! But even an Epiphone Valve Jr Combo (one of the cheapest tube amps you can find) sweeps the floor with any of them when it comes to that indescribable tonal quality that, apparently, can only come from a vacuum tube.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I wish I didn't think so, but playing even a cheapo Vietnamese Marshall Origin series since shelter-in-place started, when I went to do some (socially distant, mask-clad) tone chasing with my bandmate last Friday with the Sunn Beta, I felt I couldn't go back to it. I used to tell myself it's not that different, and I felt reassured by the sort of comments I see all over this thread, the fact that professional bands still tour and record with them... but the clean sound is obviously different, the distorted sound is different, the way it responds to pedals is different... it just doesn't compare. Or if we_ have to_ compare, then it doesn't stack up. And I felt the same way about my Randall when I still had it, too. I'll say this: I might prefer a solid state amp if I were ever in an industrial / noise / nu metal / electronic / etc., type band where that stiff, abrasive feel adds to the atmosphere of the music. But for the sorta stuff I generally play, it detracts. People on here say "it's close enough that no one can tell", but to my ear, in person, it's night and day, at least with the gear I have personal experience with. Sure, someone in the crowd who doesn't know anything about guitar amplifiers wouldn't be able to say _Hey I don't hear no tube! _but if they were given the eye doctor test _which is better A or B?_, I think even a layman would choose the tube. Again, speaking about rock and 'classic' guitar tones.
> 
> I still want a modeler just for the convenience and volume control (and to play along to songs with headphones on). I'm thinking about selling the Beta and using it to fund a HX Stomp to play at home, and then migrate the Marshall to the practice space.


----------



## USMarine75

Carl Kolchak said:


> The Marshall thing is funny. There seems to be this perception nowadays that the JCM800s are basically "grandpa" amps that really can't cut it in today's high gain world. Now admittedly they don't have massive amounts of gain on tap, but that situation is easily rectified by placing some kind of boost pedal in front of one.
> 
> As for having to crank them to get them to sound good I can say this, I'm running mine with the preamp volume at 10 and the master volume really low. But then again I'm also using cab sims too, so...
> 
> "Tone is all in the fingers....."
> I always thought this was a bs statement to begin with. Tone is all in the equipment. High gain heavy tones aren't gotten through clean amps. No amount of magic fingers hockus is going to make a Fender Reverb Deluxe sound like a cranked JCM800 with a ts in front of it. Obviously, any good guitarist can make an already good tone sound great, but even the best of them aren't going to be able to alter the physical reality gain staging. That said, tone is more like 90% gear and 10% technique.



Spot on... but I bet Schuldiner still sounds 90% like Schuldiner whether through his original gear or a Schecter and Blackstar.

And I bet if Megadeth re-recorded RIP with Suhrs and Framus Cobras it would still sound 90% like Megadeth and RIP.

Just my 



Matt08642 said:


> I agree with most of this, but wasn't he using an Abasi tele style with Greg Koch signature Fishmans in it? That would likely help a lot lol



Haha that would certainly help! 

But have you watched the Wildwood demos? Reverend, Fender, Gibson, James Tyler, Suhr, etc all sound like the Great Koch.


----------



## Necky379

USMarine75 said:


> And I bet if Megadeth re-recorded RIP with Suhrs and Framus Cobras it would still sound 90% like Megadeth and RIP.



I’d buy that album


----------



## Mathemagician

Emperoff said:


> Elixir Optiwebs (their newest product) are fucking awesome. If you don't like Elixir and you only tried their past models (Polyweb, Nanoweb), give them a try. I used D'addarios for like 15 years and the moment I tried them I became a convert.
> 
> On summer tours a D'addario set lasts me 2-3 shows before feeling buzzy. I had a guitar with the same Elixir set and strings looked and sounded great until they all started to break. *After a friggin' year.*





Spaced Out Ace said:


> PLEASE message them for a 10-49 set. Then I can stop buying three sets. (18-28-38-49) I messaged them and the more emails and messages they get, the more likely they'll make them. Please!



I have always wanted an easy to buy 10-50 set. The 10-46 is too thin on the low strings especially to use Drop-D, but the 10-52 everyone seems to have agreed on is way uneven for standard and only really feels ok for Drop-D (if then). I’ll settle for a 10-49 but would love that extra 1mm if only because then it’s an even # and further from that 46.

No idea why anyone but Michael Amott thought 11-49 would be a good idea. Who TF is that for? (Besides Michael amott)


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Sure, big tube amps into stacked cabs sound (and look) awesome. But my unpopular opinion is that: A high quality modeler into a high powered SS power amp (like a Matrix 1600 watt) sounds just as good. You don't have that squishy feel when the tubes get very hot and the power amp gets saturated more as you push the volume. The response is uniform and controllable every time even with very high volume and a stack of cabs. You can go louder and louder and the tone sounds just as good.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Mathemagician said:


> I have always wanted an easy to buy 10-50 set. The 10-46 is too thin on the low strings especially to use Drop-D, but the 10-52 everyone seems to have agreed on is way uneven for standard and only really feels ok for Drop-D (if then). I’ll settle for a 10-49 but would love that extra 1mm if only because then it’s an even # and further from that 46.
> 
> No idea why anyone but Michael Amott thought 11-49 would be a good idea. Who TF is that for? (Besides Michael amott)


Dunno, man.

I use 25.5" scale length guitars in E standard and Eb standard. 9-11 (12 would be better, but whatever)-17-26-36-46 is great for E standard, and I can buy this set as is. (Though 12 would be a bit more even for the high B string).

However, 10-46 isn't fitting, 10-52 is too lopsided, and 11-49 is too much on the high strings. My only option is buying a 10-46 and 11-49 set, and basically light top heavy bottom hybriding the two sets together, which sucks. 24 bucks to string a guitar is absurd. The 10-13-18 is perferct for the high strings (I wish the 9-46 had a 12 high B string, just to make it closer). However, 26-36-46 is too floppy, so I have to use the 28-38-49 from the 11 set. Their solution was just to buy them separately. These are kind of a pain in the ass to source, and $4.04 for a single wound, coated string is ridiculous. $16.72 for the 10-49 custom set + a 12 for the 9-46 set. (And of course, just trying to do this as a hypothetical on Just Strings, the 0.012 won't add to my cart -- "Elixir Anti-Rust Plain Steel, .012, 13012 is not orderable.") So basically, with shipping/tax, I'm not really saving any money, and I'm getting less. The extra strings (26 and 36 particularly) come in handy if you break a D or A string. That said, I really wish they'd offer some more sets, which I pointed out to them that Ernie Ball had just done when I harassed them about doing a similar set. They said they'd "suggest it" and "think about it" and "if enough people request it, we might have to make a set."


----------



## budda

Amenthea said:


> I really don't like the tone out of Marshall's. It sounds thin and tinny to me, and I've never got a good sound out of one without a load of pedals either side.
> 
> Oh, and Gibson LP's are too heavy lol



Things that sound thin alone probably have a way better chance of sitting well in the mix. Im reminded of a tale of opeth line check vs everything going at once.

As for "modellers cant feel like tube amps", my limited experience says otherwise. And thats why its an unpopular opinion


----------



## wheresthefbomb

Nadja used to use big amps, they switched to modelers and only play venues with PAs that can support their sound, and they're better than every band that every person I've ever seen being pretentious about amps is in.


----------



## Emperoff

Here's an unpopular opinion:

Going direct live if you don't have a dedicated sound tech is a gamble. Thinking they will care about your tone, your guitar solos, or your 300 patch changes is fucking naive. The will most likely care only about drums and vocals. That is if you're lucky and they're not drinking shots instead.

Yeah, yeah, those are unprofessional guys, yada, yada. I'd rather have something I can turn the fuck up if the sound guy is a moron.


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Dunno, man.
> 
> I use 25.5" scale length guitars in E standard and Eb standard. 9-11 (12 would be better, but whatever)-17-26-36-46 is great for E standard, and I can buy this set as is. (Though 12 would be a bit more even for the high B string).
> 
> However, 10-46 isn't fitting, 10-52 is too lopsided, and 11-49 is too much on the high strings. My only option is buying a 10-46 and 11-49 set, and basically light top heavy bottom hybriding the two sets together, which sucks. 24 bucks to string a guitar is absurd. The 10-13-18 is perferct for the high strings (I wish the 9-46 had a 12 high B string, just to make it closer). However, 26-36-46 is too floppy, so I have to use the 28-38-49 from the 11 set. Their solution was just to buy them separately. These are kind of a pain in the ass to source, and $4.04 for a single wound, coated string is ridiculous. $16.72 for the 10-49 custom set + a 12 for the 9-46 set. (And of course, just trying to do this as a hypothetical on Just Strings, the 0.012 won't add to my cart -- "Elixir Anti-Rust Plain Steel, .012, 13012 is not orderable.") So basically, with shipping/tax, I'm not really saving any money, and I'm getting less. The extra strings (26 and 36 particularly) come in handy if you break a D or A string. That said, I really wish they'd offer some more sets, which I pointed out to them that Ernie Ball had just done when I harassed them about doing a similar set. They said they'd "suggest it" and "think about it" and "if enough people request it, we might have to make a set."


I have always thought it was strange companies offer a 9->10 Hybrid set, but no one offers a 10->11 Hybrid set. Never understood that one, lol.

Maybe the DAddario 10.5 set they offer would fit. EXL110+.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Emperoff said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion:
> 
> Going direct live if you don't have a dedicated sound tech is a gamble. Thinking they will care about your tone, your guitar solos, or your 300 patch changes is fucking naive. The will most likely care only about drums and vocals. That is if you're lucky and they're not drinking shots instead.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, those are unprofessional guys, yada, yada. I'd rather have something I can turn the fuck up if the sound guy is a moron.


No reason you can't have both. Two powered wedges are gonna cover more area (with the same tone) as one 4x12 if the sound guy is a dink. And if you're expecting the sound guy to compensate for you not leveling your patches prior to walking on stage, you have no business being on stage.


----------



## Mprinsje

Emperoff said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion:
> 
> Going direct live if you don't have a dedicated sound tech is a gamble. Thinking they will care about your tone, your guitar solos, or your 300 patch changes is fucking naive. The will most likely care only about drums and vocals. That is if you're lucky and they're not drinking shots instead.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, those are unprofessional guys, yada, yada. I'd rather have something I can turn the fuck up if the sound guy is a moron.



Yes! Every time I've heard a band play with modelers without stage cabs in a venue without their own sound guy it sounds terrible. And this has happened wayy to many times. I absolutely hate shows where there's no stage sound. 

In big venues with big touring bands it can sound fine though, but for small touring bands or local bands it's terrible, without exception.


----------



## Mprinsje

Also, any guitar with more than 8 strings is pointless and the low notes sound like farts.


----------



## vilk

wheresthefbomb said:


> Nadja used to use big amps, they switched to modelers and only play venues with PAs that can support their sound, and they're better than every band that every person I've ever seen being pretentious about amps is in.


Man I would love to see Nadja. Honestly you're the first person I've heard talk about them since the guy who told to listen to them like 7 years ago.


Also, that dude has been playing the same Kramer since forever and I remember him saying something about how gear worship is misguided etc


----------



## TedEH

Just because a modeller or solid state stuff _can_ sound good, doesn't mean they always _will _sound good. For every band with modellers I've seen that sounded great, there was another three or four that sounded terrible. At least with your traditional rig - big ol' tube amp through a 4x12 or something - there's enough of a common denominator to "guitar sound" that it's likely to sound at least decent once you've removed it from it's ideal listening environment.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Shask said:


> I have always thought it was strange companies offer a 9->10 Hybrid set, but no one offers a 10->11 Hybrid set. Never understood that one, lol.
> 
> Maybe the DAddario 10.5 set they offer would fit. EXL110+.


The hybrid set for 10s seems to be 10->12, which is weird.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> Just because a modeller or solid state stuff _can_ sound good, doesn't mean they always _will _sound good. For every band with modellers I've seen that sounded great, there was another three or four that sounded terrible. At least with your traditional rig - big ol' tube amp through a 4x12 or something - there's enough of a common denominator to "guitar sound" that it's likely to sound at least decent once you've removed it from it's ideal listening environment.



I've heard enough good rigs sound like shit in the last 5 years to say that's a no from me dawg .

The gear is nearly never the issue.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'm reminded of Bloodhound Gang and early Rammstein. They used an iconic rig (2-channel Rectos into either Mesa or Marshall cabs). And they sounded like practice amps.  Your rig is only as good as the ear that deals with it.


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> The gear is nearly never the issue.


That's kind of my point. The gear is almost always _capable_, but that doesn't mean the end result is going to sound good.

I'll phrase it a different way -> traditional amps have maybe 2-3 different ways you can trash your sound, and it's pretty easily avoidable. New fancy modeller tech has 100s of ways you can create junk sounds.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm reminded of Bloodhound Gang and early Rammstein. They used an iconic rig (2-channel Rectos into either Mesa or Marshall cabs). And they sounded like practice amps.  Your rig is only as good as the ear that deals with it.


With Rammstein, I always figured they mixed in Paul's Sansamp louder than Richard's Rectos until Mutter. You can hear the Recto presence much more then.

Bloodhound Gang  Hooray for Boobies is one of my favorite albums of all time, lol. Never hear anyone mention them anymore.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> With Rammstein, I always figured they mixed in Paul's Sansamp louder than Richard's Rectos until Mutter. You can hear the Recto presence much more then.
> 
> Bloodhound Gang  Hooray for Boobies is one of my favorite albums of all time, lol. Never hear anyone mention them anymore.



I don't know about Sehnsucht, but IIRC the mixing (not recording) of Herzeleid was a shitshow. Listening to some demos, and they do sound a bit more Recto-heavy than I remember.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't know about Sehnsucht, but IIRC the mixing (not recording) of Herzeleid was a shitshow. Listening to some demos, and they do sound a bit more Recto-heavy than I remember.


I know they were being lumped in with more of the White Zombie, NIN, Ministry, etc.... bands at the time, so I always figured they went for that harsher sound on purpose to fit in with that genre. After some years they were more well known, could spend a ton more money to record (Some tracks on Mutter had like 24 tracks of guitars, lol), and kind of broke out into being their own thing, so they changed up their sound some.

I remember the first time I ever heard them was on the Lost Highway Soundtrack, which was a very Industrial heavy Soundtrack.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

budda said:


> I've heard enough good rigs sound like shit in the last 5 years to say that's a no from me dawg .
> 
> The gear is nearly never the issue.


I mean, the gear COULD be the issue. But it is most likely the result of the operator.


----------



## Emperoff

Mprinsje said:


> Also, any guitar with more than *7 strings* is pointless and the low notes sound like farts.



Fixed for a more unpopular opinion


----------



## spudmunkey

Emperoff said:


> Fixed for a more unpopular opinion



Hold my beer, zoomer.



Mprinsje said:


> Also, any guitar with more than 6 strings is pointless.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I mean, the gear COULD be the issue. But it is most likely the result of the operator.



I'm still going with the latter. Amp modeling has gotten to the point where you just have to pick an amp with your favorite cab in an Axe FX, Helix, or shit even a Headrush board, and you can get a perfectly usable tone. Gone are the days of the GT8, Zoom, and (pre-GO) POD series where you need 24 EQs, an OD pedal, compressor, and some weird studio trickery to get a decent sound with a modeler.


----------



## Thaeon

Emperoff said:


> If you live outside Europe, that is. Otherwise ENGLs retain its x1 cost. It's called importing. Do you know a Mesa JP2C is 4700$ here? I can buy two Diezels for that money.
> 
> Tone preferences aside, I can't understand how people are willing to pay twice the price for something that it's objectively not worth it. If a Marshall JVM costs 1500€ here and 3000€ in the US, you're paying 3000€ for a 1500€ amp no matter how you look at it.



Mesa in Europe is comparable to Diezel in the US.



USMarine75 said:


> Spot on... but I bet Schuldiner still sounds 90% like Schuldiner whether through his original gear or a Schecter and Blackstar.
> 
> And I bet if Megadeth re-recorded RIP with Suhrs and Framus Cobras it would still sound 90% like Megadeth and RIP.
> 
> Just my
> 
> 
> 
> Haha that would certainly help!
> 
> But have you watched the Wildwood demos? Reverend, Fender, Gibson, James Tyler, Suhr, etc all sound like the Great Koch.



Only good luck getting that to happen considering the impossibility of getting the same people back into the studio. I’d actually argue that if they re recorded it, it would sound a lot heavier. Dave is using different equipment and a lot more gain. Would still have their sound. Just more gain and different the solos and drumming would be different.


----------



## oneblackened

Emperoff said:


> Here's an unpopular opinion:
> 
> Going direct live if you don't have a dedicated sound tech is a gamble. Thinking they will care about your tone, your guitar solos, or your 300 patch changes is fucking naive. The will most likely care only about drums and vocals. That is if you're lucky and they're not drinking shots instead.
> 
> Yeah, yeah, those are unprofessional guys, yada, yada. I'd rather have something I can turn the fuck up if the sound guy is a moron.


Hard backed on this one. Stage volume still matters despite what modeler hype trains would lead you to believe. 


Mprinsje said:


> Also, any guitar with more than 8 strings is pointless and the low notes sound like farts.


 Yup. To add onto this, most guitarists who use 7+ strings would be better off with a downtuned 6 string instead.


----------



## Metropolis

Stage volume thing is more prone to smaller stages when playing with modelers without your own cab or monitor. Often PA just can't handle two guitars how it would with bigger systems, and you won't be hearing almost anything from the guitars in few first rows of the audience. I saw couple of bands having Kemper and Pod HD 500 doing it without their own stage monitors, and only monitoring through in-ears. Not only couple, but those are two I remember well how this was a problem.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> Just because a modeller or solid state stuff _can_ sound good, doesn't mean they always _will _sound good. For every band with modellers I've seen that sounded great, there was another three or four that sounded terrible. At least with your traditional rig - big ol' tube amp through a 4x12 or something - there's enough of a common denominator to "guitar sound" that it's likely to sound at least decent once you've removed it from it's ideal listening environment.


 Been playing shows for like 18 years and I've heard just as many bad tones out of $4k+ tube rigs as I have out of modelers. In the last 4-5 years most of the "bad" guitar sounds I've seen at shows are guys with full stacks (or more) who play waaaaaay to loud for the stage/room.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I hate how shit is always so all or nothing. 

Someone can't just not like a particular guitar or amp or pedal or something, they have to hate all of it. 

It just seems so silly.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Mprinsje said:


> Also, any guitar with more than 8 strings is pointless and the low notes sound like farts.


That's the point, highly distorted farts played in syncopated rhythms. Also, getting like six octaves worth of notes between the 12th-24th frets.
But mostly fart noises.


----------



## TedEH

GunpointMetal said:


> In the last 4-5 years most of the "bad" guitar sounds I've seen at shows are guys with full stacks (or more) who play waaaaaay to loud for the stage/room.


At that point, isn't the problem the user and not the gear? If it was a modeller, they'd still have it too loud, no? All gear is subject to user error. It's all anecdotal either way.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> At that point, isn't the problem the user and not the gear? If it was a modeller, they'd still have it too loud, no? All gear is subject to user error. It's all anecdotal either way.



I think guitarists have this idea in their heads that modellers are inherently quiet. I suspect a large part of that is because many modeller owners dont *want* to be 120dB+ on stage. It can definitely be done. 

On one hand, I would have fun doing doom-esque gigs with an ax3 fx and powered speakers because it's unconventional. On the other hand, I have tinnitus from being in a very loud band and Im no longer required to be *that* loud.


----------



## Seabeast2000

MaxOfMetal said:


> I hate how shit is always so all or nothing.
> 
> Someone can't just not like a particular guitar or amp or pedal or something, they have to hate all of it.
> 
> It just seems so silly.



The internet called and wants to have its way with you Sir. Please comply.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> At that point, isn't the problem the user and not the gear? If it was a modeller, they'd still have it too loud, no? All gear is subject to user error. It's all anecdotal either way.


 Whether its an amp or a modeler its all user error, which is kind of the point. Someone showing up to a gig that needs stage sound without any way to make stage sound because they use a modeler is user error. Someone showing up to a gig in a 60 cap bar with two 4x12s running them at volumes designed for alerting other galaxies is also user error. Neither option is better or worse because of the technology involved.


----------



## Metropolis

Left handed guitars  Mirror image of a guitar, no thanks. Every time I see one it looks like everything is wrong.


----------



## Zender

Tube amps have no place in home practice. 

These things are always too loud if you want to have things dialed in. Setting a power amp to 0.5 will not cut it. And yes, you can put an attenuator in there, but that defeats the purpose again. Your cab/speakers won't even start adding into it. In short, there is no way to get a tube amp to sound proper, at bedroom levels. It's always a compromise and you're better off with some kind of modeler / IR etc.

Change my mind..


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Zender said:


> Tube amps have no place in home practice.
> 
> These things are always too loud if you want to have things dialed in. Setting a power amp to 0.5 will not cut it. And yes, you can put an attenuator in there, but that defeats the purpose again. Your cab/speakers won't even start adding into it. In short, there is no way to get a tube amp to sound proper, at bedroom levels. It's always a compromise and you're better off with some kind of modeler / IR etc.
> 
> Change my mind..


Reactive loadbox.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Zender said:


> Tube amps have no place in home practice.
> 
> These things are always too loud if you want to have things dialed in. Setting a power amp to 0.5 will not cut it. And yes, you can put an attenuator in there, but that defeats the purpose again. Your cab/speakers won't even start adding into it. In short, there is no way to get a tube amp to sound proper, at bedroom levels. It's always a compromise and you're better off with some kind of modeler / IR etc.
> 
> Change my mind..



Buy a house outside the city, be as loud as you want whenever you want. 

I agree though. Folks asking how good that monster tube amp is at low volume is always a knee slapper.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Reactive loadbox.


OMFG! YES! YES! A THOUSAND TIMES YES TO THIS!


----------



## sleewell

i have virtually no desire to spend thousands of dollars on a custom guitar from a small builder. too many horror stories and i just dont think the risk/reward is there to justify it.


----------



## TedEH

Zender said:


> Tube amps have no place in home practice.


My Mark IV and reasonable neighbours would disagree with this one.

I honestly have never gelled with a "practice amp", or playing through VSTs or something.



budda said:


> I think guitarists have this idea in their heads that modellers are inherently quiet.


I used to think of solid state stuff as being "not as loud", but any half decent class D power amp can crank out ridiculous volumes if given the chance.


----------



## ATRguitar91

Zender said:


> t's always a compromise and you're better off with some kind of modeler / IR etc.


My solution to this is preamp pedals into a solid state poweramp and 412s. Still get the feel of big cabs moving air, but it sounds good at any volume. IR's and modellers have their place, and preamp pedals into IR's is a tone I can really get behind, but at the end of the day I'd almost always rather go with a traditional analog setup with an amp and cabs, at any volume.


----------



## jco5055

Mprinsje said:


> Also, any guitar with more than 8 strings is pointless and the low notes sound like farts.



Honestly, as someone who's played 7 string exclusively since 2010 and my most recent song I wrote one is required, I'm starting to think I might even go back to 6 strings exclusively. Main reason it's come to a point where, as someone who really doesn't do the "most riffs have an open B string chug involved, like how 90% of 6 string riffs have the open E" style, most of the times when I throw in the B string as part of filling out a chord I'm like "do I prefer the extra oomph of the B string added because I don't have a bassist?", as well as I think for me throwing out the B string will cause me to be more creative for when I would have normally brought in the 7th string for the heavy.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Again, why so absolute? 

I have 6s, 7s, and 8s, I've also owned 4s, 5s, and 9s.

Variety is fun.


----------



## Beheroth

Metropolis said:


> Left handed guitars  Mirror image of a guitar, no thanks. Every time I see one it looks like everything is wrong.



fuck you


----------



## tedtan

Yeah, left lives matter.


----------



## Emperoff

Having a tube amp with a loadbox to play at home is the equivalent of having a Nissan GTR to go aroud your house.


----------



## Metropolis

Beheroth said:


> fuck you



Okily dokily, but imagine if lefty guitar would be a standard option...






If guitar manufacturers would sell only left handed guitars:


----------



## wheresthefbomb

oneblackened said:


> To add onto this, most guitarists who use 7+ strings would be better off with a downtuned 6 string instead.



This is exactly why I switched to baritones. I liked the extended scale length and lower range of my 7, I don't shred and I don't need all those extra high notes to go *chug chug twinkle twinkle BRRRRRRR*


----------



## t1337Dude

Metropolis said:


> Left handed guitars  Mirror image of a guitar, no thanks. Every time I see one it looks like everything is wrong.


As a left-hander, I can't help but agree. Never understood left-handed guitars. Do they think there's no advantage to having a dominant hand on the fretboard? Do these people also use left-handed mice? Left-handed scissors? I've always pushed myself to fit in with right-handers. I've always been curious if left-handers who use exclusively left-handed things ever tried to do things right-handed? I can't but feel if someone were absolutely awful with their right hand, they wouldn't have great luck at playing guitar anyways.


----------



## rokket2005

Guitars are pretty much the only instrument that has models for both dexterities. Every other instrument tells you to grow up and learn the right way.


----------



## lewis

on this subject, why are guitarists who are left handed, enough of a primadonna it forces companies to actually offer some as left handed? - and worse have the audacity to still complain citing "there isnt enough options"

then literally every other string instrument musician doesnt say dick about Left/Right handed


----------



## Matt08642

lewis said:


> on this subject, why are guitarists who are left handed, enough of a primadonna it forces companies to actually offer some as left handed? - and worse have the audacity to still complain citing "there isnt enough options"
> 
> then literally every other string instrument musician doesnt say dick about Left/Right handed



Mmmooonneeeyyy/low barrier of entry. They can make a few left handed models, lefties will buy them for a premium. The ones who would have learned right handed will learn right handed anyway


----------



## StevenC

rokket2005 said:


> Guitars are pretty much the only instrument that has models for both dexterities. Every other instrument tells you to grow up and learn the right way.


On the other hand drummers are all taught not to play open handed.


----------



## rokket2005

StevenC said:


> On the other hand drummers are all taught not to play open handed.


As someone who's both a guitarist and a drummer, but guitarist first, we really can't be letting drummers make too many decisions for themselves.


----------



## ATRguitar91

t1337Dude said:


> Do they think there's no advantage to having a dominant hand on the fretboard?


As a leftie I've long thought this. When I first started playing my best friend (also a leftie) told me to just learn to play right handed and it was probably the best guitar advice I ever got.


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> I think guitarists have this idea in their heads that modellers are inherently quiet. I suspect a large part of that is because many modeller owners dont *want* to be 120dB+ on stage. It can definitely be done.
> 
> On one hand, I would have fun doing doom-esque gigs with an ax3 fx and powered speakers because it's unconventional. On the other hand, I have tinnitus from being in a very loud band and Im no longer required to be *that* loud.







GunpointMetal said:


> Whether its an amp or a modeler its all user error, which is kind of the point. Someone showing up to a gig that needs stage sound without any way to make stage sound because they use a modeler is user error. Someone showing up to a gig in a 60 cap bar with two 4x12s running them at volumes designed for alerting other galaxies is also user error. Neither option is better or worse because of the technology involved.



- I miss the gigs at dive bars with a 10,000 watt PA and a 8ft ceiling. Back in the time of B.C. (before cellular/ before computers) . Back when people didn't hold phones up the whole time and actually got into the music and rocked out. People actually wanted to have a good time. 
- Metal shows at less than 90db are against my religion. : )



Metropolis said:


> Left handed guitars  Mirror image of a guitar, no thanks. Every time I see one it looks like everything is wrong.


 
Both my parents were left handed. Thank god I'm not. They told me people use to get punished and held back in school for being left handed because it was considered a mental thing or something. Looking back at my folks I'm starting to think maybe there some truth to that  Some say that left handed people are at higher risk for mental disorders. I know I'd go mental trying to be a lefty in a right handed world. 



lewis said:


> on this subject, why are guitarists who are left handed, enough of a primadonna it forces companies to actually offer some as left handed? - and worse have the audacity to still complain citing "there isnt enough options"
> 
> then literally every other string instrument musician doesnt say dick about Left/Right handed



There can't be lefty bowed instruments or they'd be poking eachother in the eyes! There'd have to be a left handed orchestra and they'd probably play everything backwards too


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

In reference to our Elixir talk previously: I ordered three sets (explained in my comment a page or so back) and rather than Amazon send them all in one order, they sent them in at least two packages...

Because, uh, efficiency, I guess? Morons.

Which, by the way, if I actually get the rest of my order today, that'd mean they had to make TWO deliveries via USPS today. 

But hey, USPS needs your fucking tax money, folks. Nevermind the fact they need to tell Amazon to get their bullshit together.


----------



## oracles

Side mount jacks on pedals cause wasted space on pedal boards and are in every way inferior to top mounted jacks.


----------



## StevenC

oracles said:


> Side mount jacks on pedals cause wasted space on pedal boards and are in every way inferior to top mounted jacks.


This isn't unpopular but somehow there was an argument here about this a few months ago.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

What an absurd comment. First pedals had top jacks, and are a nuisance to wiring up a board. Side jacks are an improvement. You do not need to cram another overdrive on the pedalboard, you need to be more creative with what you're using. Side jacks or fuck off. Only acception is a Proco Rat.


----------



## BornToLooze

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What an absurd comment. First pedals had top jacks, and are a nuisance to wiring up a board. Side jacks are an improvement. You do not need to cram another overdrive on the pedalboard, you need to be more creative with what you're using. Side jacks or fuck off. Only acception is a Proco Rat.



Having the jack on top of the pedal seems like a great way to break a lead off when you go to step on the pedal unless you use a lead with a 90 on the plug.


----------



## StevenC

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What an absurd comment. First pedals had top jacks, and are a nuisance to wiring up a board. Side jacks are an improvement. You do not need to cram another overdrive on the pedalboard, you need to be more creative with what you're using. Side jacks or fuck off. Only acception is a Proco Rat.


Now there's an unpopular opinion!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jesus fucking Christ. Seriously. Not only do they ship shit in separate packages (despite apparently coming from the same factory and arriving, theoretically, the same day), but they also do not get the shit to you. Now, since they didn't manage to ship them in the same configuration they show up in, I have to get Amazon to just replace all three pairs, because I am NOT going to try and convey that over the phone.


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Jesus fucking Christ. Seriously. Not only do they ship shit in separate packages (despite apparently coming from the same factory and arriving, theoretically, the same day), but they also do not get the shit to you. Now, since they didn't manage to ship them in the same configuration they show up in, I have to get Amazon to just replace all three pairs, because I am NOT going to try and convey that over the phone.


I was playing tonight, and thought I would restring a guitar since it had been awhile. Checked the stuff drawer..... 9-46. Empty. 10-46. Empty. 11-49. Empty. 10-52. Empty. 10-59. Empty.



Sigh. Guess it is time to order strings instead of something cool, lol.


----------



## oracles

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What an absurd comment. First pedals had top jacks, and are a nuisance to wiring up a board. Side jacks are an improvement. You do not need to cram another overdrive on the pedalboard, you need to be more creative with what you're using. Side jacks or fuck off. Only acception is a Proco Rat.



Side jacks cause nothing but wasted space by way of forcing the bulkiest ends of the cable to butt up against each other. Top mount allows for closer spacing, and less space wasted. If you think top mounts are a detriment to cable or pedal safety, I have absolutely no idea how you manage to even tie your shoes unassisted, let alone wire a board. Hot tip, you can orient the cable so that it falls in between the railings and doesn't affect anything, or cause any issues. 

If you absolutely have to have a combination of top and side mount jacks, they make S cables to alleviate stress on the cable, but it does nothing to solve the waste of space that side jacks cause. Top mount makes exponentially more sense.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Shask said:


> I was playing tonight, and thought I would restring a guitar since it had been awhile. Checked the stuff drawer..... 9-46. Empty. 10-46. Empty. 11-49. Empty. 10-52. Empty. 10-59. Empty.
> 
> 
> 
> Sigh. Guess it is time to order strings instead of something cool, lol.


Amazon had the order for three pairs of strings as 11-49 order 1; 10-46, 9-46 order 2.

10-46 in one package, I assume the other two pairs of strings in another package. Tracking was the same for both orders. Get one of the packages with the 10-46. Wait all day assuming they would actually give me my package for the other two (despite how inefficient that is), and yet it says delivered, but was not. 

Folks, remember to call your representatives and senators and tell them to pass the bill to get USPS the money they need so you don't have to pay twice as much to ship packages!

Because why tell Bezos to start paying when we could just jam it up the ass of the tax payers as usual.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

oracles said:


> Side jacks cause nothing but wasted space by way of forcing the bulkiest ends of the cable to butt up against each other. Top mount allows for closer spacing, and less space wasted. If you think top mounts are a detriment to cable or pedal safety, I have absolutely no idea how you manage to even tie your shoes unassisted, let alone wire a board. Hot tip, you can orient the cable so that it falls in between the railings and doesn't affect anything, or cause any issues.
> 
> If you absolutely have to have a combination of top and side mount jacks, they make S cables to alleviate stress on the cable, but it does nothing to solve the waste of space that side jacks cause. Top mount makes exponentially more sense.


Wasted space? I dunno, I don't want a typical MXR sized pedal with top jacks, because I don't care to use my big toe to turn things on and off or risk stepping on multiple switches. The closeness of pedals is not one I like; I prefer the space, and I don't need 5 overdrive options on one board. Also, top jack patch cables are a pain. Not all pedals have the same jack placement, and if I want to try another configuration, chances are, I will probably have to have a different patch cable.

This is unnecessarily rude and uncalled for: "If you think top mounts are a detriment to cable or pedal safety, I have absolutely no idea how you manage to even tie your shoes unassisted, let alone wire a board. Hot tip, you can orient the cable so that it falls in between the railings and doesn't affect anything, or cause any issues."


----------



## Emperoff

Back in the day Korn's Head & Munky pedalboards were famous for being huge with tons of pedals and FX. Take a look at those pictures now... They have half the pedals than the average bedroom guitarist pedalboard. 

You can guess the stage presence of a player by the size of their pedalboard.


----------



## BornToLooze

oracles said:


> Side jacks cause nothing but wasted space by way of forcing the bulkiest ends of the cable to butt up against each other. Top mount allows for closer spacing, and less space wasted. If you think top mounts are a detriment to cable or pedal safety, I have absolutely no idea how you manage to even tie your shoes unassisted, let alone wire a board. Hot tip, you can orient the cable so that it falls in between the railings and doesn't affect anything, or cause any issues.
> 
> If you absolutely have to have a combination of top and side mount jacks, they make S cables to alleviate stress on the cable, but it does nothing to solve the waste of space that side jacks cause. Top mount makes exponentially more sense.



If you are that worried about squeezing that many pedals onto your pedal board, it seems like have the jacks on the front of the pedal would be the best solution.

But the only pedal I use is a wah wah, so I might be looking at the the the wrong way.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Emperoff said:


> You can guess the stage presence of a player by the size of their pedalboard.



John Frusicante and Josh Klinghoffer were rocking massive pedalboards and still jump around like maniacs. Frusciante in particular always had put on a show no matter the size of his rig. I remembered seeing Korn during the Follow The Leader tour when they started using the big boards and they still managed to do their low headbanging no problem. 

Just to show that having a large pedalboard doesn't necessarily mean you're going to use them all in one song, or even a full set. Satriani has a decent sized board that gets modified per every tour and even with an AxeFx, he's got one or two unique pedals that get used maybe just for a small section of a song. 

You're right about the average bedroom guitarist rig though. 


In a world with midi controlled switching systems and solderless patch cables (or DIY), I really don't care about the difference between top and side mount jacks on pedals. The just stay on and idle and minimizes the tapdancing significantly.


----------



## Mathemagician

BornToLooze said:


> If you are that worried about squeezing that many pedals onto your pedal board, it seems like have the jacks on the front of the pedal would be the best solution.
> 
> But the only pedal I use is a wah wah, so I might be looking at the the the wrong way.



Of every pedal every created, you choose to use the only wrong one.


----------



## BornToLooze

Mathemagician said:


> Of every pedal every created, you choose to use the only wrong one.



As an actual effect I'll use it for Needle and the Spoon, White Room and maybe a minute of Voodoo Chile until I realize I'm still not Jimi or SRV and pick a different song to play. On occasion, if i still have it plugged in, I'll use it to cover up jamming with a song I heard on the radio and I can't wing a solo I've heard one time.

My wah wah use probably gives Kirk Hammet anxiety.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The Majesty is the worse JP model and probably the worse Music Man, and that includes the Benji model.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Majesty is the worse JP model and probably the worse Music Man, and that includes the Benji model.



In looks or actually playing it?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> In looks or actually playing it?



Yes.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Majesty is the worse JP model and probably the worse Music Man, and that includes the Benji model.


Excuse me, but who the fuck is Benji?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Excuse me, but who the fuck is Benji?



The dude married to Cameron Diaz.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> The dude married to Cameron Diaz.


...Who?


----------



## Mprinsje

MaxOfMetal said:


> Again, why so absolute?
> 
> I have 6s, 7s, and 8s, I've also owned 4s, 5s, and 9s.
> 
> Variety is fun.



Because this is the unpopular gear opinion thread, being all nuanced and shit isn't controversial enough.

In all seriousness, people should play whatever the hell they want, I just don't particularly like the sound of very low distorted guitar, especially with the modern metal production. I do like it when a band like bongripper does it. 

I personally don't have any 7 or more string guitars because I can't get used to them and I'm to lazy to figure it out


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> ...Who?



The chick from that one movie.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> The chick from that one movie.


What, like 23 years ago?


----------



## StevenC

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Wasted space? I dunno, I don't want a typical MXR sized pedal with top jacks, because I don't care to use my big toe to turn things on and off or risk stepping on multiple switches. The closeness of pedals is not one I like; I prefer the space, and I don't need 5 overdrive options on one board. Also, top jack patch cables are a pain. Not all pedals have the same jack placement, and if I want to try another configuration, chances are, I will probably have to have a different patch cable.
> 
> This is unnecessarily rude and uncalled for: "If you think top mounts are a detriment to cable or pedal safety, I have absolutely no idea how you manage to even tie your shoes unassisted, let alone wire a board. Hot tip, you can orient the cable so that it falls in between the railings and doesn't affect anything, or cause any issues."


Have you ever seen any big boards that actual touring musicians use these days? They all have fancy loop switchers. Boss, GigRig, Free the Tone etc. This means that regardless of their clown feet, since they won't be turning any pedals on or off, they just want pedals to be as close together for the smallest board to save money.

So what about the regular guys just throwing some pedals in front of their amps at home? The good news is that even those who play underwater will benefit from topmount jacks, because for the same length of patch cable top mount pedals can be placed further apart than side mount pedals. The upshot of this is you can even actuate your chain of top mount pedals when wearing swim fins.


----------



## prlgmnr

Never has something so unimportant generated so much opprobrium.


----------



## Vostre Roy

Dunno if that has been thrown out in the last 20 pages, but I don't get behind those lunchbox tube amp. Only owned one (Orange Dark Terror) and although I loved the gain structure, I couldn't stand the sound of the amp when cranked. I'd take a 50-100w with a well built master volume over those atrocities.


----------



## budda

There's two types of pedalboard users:

Those who take up an entire row with their controller, and those who turn things on and off individually.


----------



## Mathemagician

I cannot imagine having or wanting that many effects in individual pedals. “I have 45 different choruses” - me the listener cannot tell. There is just clean, clean and very light chorus, and clean with a ton of chorus. Repeat for having 4+ tubescreamer variants. 

For at-home use or recording, hey have a field day. But I don’t even play live and can’t imagine willfully lugging around that bullshit.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Mathemagician said:


> I cannot imagine having or wanting that many effects in individual pedals. “I have 45 different choruses” - me the listener cannot tell. There is just clean, clean and very light chorus, and clean with a ton of chorus. Repeat for having 4+ tubescreamer variants.
> 
> For at-home use or recording, hey have a field day. But I don’t even play live and can’t imagine willfully lugging around that bullshit.


I like having options, but I wouldn't wanna carry all that stuff around either, hence the floor modeler. I can have a different chorus, delay, reverb etc with different settings on every song, with one power cord and customized switching. There's a good portion of hobby band guys who are more concerned with showing their gear to people than writing or performing interesting music. That's like a 2/3 of any local doom scene. A dozen bands that all sound the same and they book shows together so they can collectively jizz on each other's pedalboards.


----------



## budda

Mathemagician said:


> I cannot imagine having or wanting that many effects in individual pedals. “I have 45 different choruses” - me the listener cannot tell. There is just clean, clean and very light chorus, and clean with a ton of chorus. Repeat for having 4+ tubescreamer variants.
> 
> For at-home use or recording, hey have a field day. But I don’t even play live and can’t imagine willfully lugging around that bullshit.



Many can and do. It's only difficult if you make it difficult .


----------



## Vince

budda said:


> There's two types of pedalboard users:
> 
> Those who take up an entire row with their controller, and those who turn things on and off individually.



There's also a third type like me, where the player uses an effects box in 4CM like the G System or HX Effects and switches amp channels via MIDI. I'm probably in the minority, but it's simply the best system to get ideal switching with tube amps instead of modelers.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

StevenC said:


> Have you ever seen any big boards that actual touring musicians use these days? They all have fancy loop switchers. Boss, GigRig, Free the Tone etc. This means that regardless of their clown feet, since they won't be turning any pedals on or off, they just want pedals to be as close together for the smallest board to save money.
> 
> So what about the regular guys just throwing some pedals in front of their amps at home? The good news is that even those who play underwater will benefit from topmount jacks, because for the same length of patch cable top mount pedals can be placed further apart than side mount pedals. The upshot of this is you can even actuate your chain of top mount pedals when wearing swim fins.


Uh okay? Who is playing underwater.


----------



## StevenC

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Uh okay? Who is playing underwater.


You said you couldn't get your feet on the switches with top mounted jacks, so I assumed I'm either talking to 4x NBA Champion Shaquille O'Neal or you're wearing flippers. And why would you be wearing flippers if you weren't playing guitar underwater?


----------



## budda

Vince said:


> There's also a third type like me, where the player uses an effects box in 4CM like the G System or HX Effects and switches amp channels via MIDI. I'm probably in the minority, but it's simply the best system to get ideal switching with tube amps instead of modelers.



You're in the first group


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> Have you ever seen any big boards that actual touring musicians use these days? They all have fancy loop switchers. Boss, GigRig, Free the Tone etc. This means that regardless of their clown feet, since they won't be turning any pedals on or off, they just want pedals to be as close together for the smallest board to save money.
> 
> So what about the regular guys just throwing some pedals in front of their amps at home? The good news is that even those who play underwater will benefit from topmount jacks, because for the same length of patch cable top mount pedals can be placed further apart than side mount pedals. The upshot of this is you can even actuate your chain of top mount pedals when wearing swim fins.



Most gigging musicians nowadays are using Helix boards


Vince said:


> There's also a third type like me, where the player uses an effects box in 4CM like the G System or HX Effects and switches amp channels via MIDI. I'm probably in the minority, but it's simply the best system to get ideal switching with tube amps instead of modelers.



I'm with you. I control my rig with a single Boss GT-100 onstage and it's super liberating. 6 switches and two big fucking screens for peanuts.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

StevenC said:


> You said you couldn't get your feet on the switches with top mounted jacks, so I assumed I'm either talking to 4x NBA Champion Shaquille O'Neal or you're wearing flippers. And why would you be wearing flippers if you weren't playing guitar underwater?


Lovely arguments, Steve-O.


----------



## budda

I know 3 people gigging helix boards


----------



## op1e

I use my 8 string more for rock than metal. And my midi controller is my board and my pedals are in a rack mostly.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

Mathemagician said:


> I cannot imagine having or wanting that many effects in individual pedals. “I have 45 different choruses” - me the listener cannot tell. There is just clean, clean and very light chorus, and clean with a ton of chorus. Repeat for having 4+ tubescreamer variants.



I have a L O T of reverbs in my chain, especially when I'm playing ambient stuff, but I'll be the first to admit that after the Afterneath and Dark Star, most of them aren't adding anything anyone but me appreciates. Quadraverb adds more pad, amp verb adds more ambience, etc etc. Also though, I play primarily for myself, so that's just fine.

In the name of stating unpopular opinions, despite the fact that Quadraverb has a notorious volume cut I actually feel it improves my tone. The trebles are less ice-picky and the gain character when you turn up the input is actually quit pleasant. It's an ideal tool for playing ambient music in relaxed settings, I have played a lot of yoga workshops and it's awesome there.


----------



## sakeido

The 5150-3 red channel sucks on literally every version of the amp... 15, 50 or 100 watts, EL34 or 6L6. Blue is where the sauce is... Unless you have the Stealth, which has no good channels on it at all


----------



## oneblackened

sakeido said:


> The 5150-3 red channel sucks on literally every version of the amp... 15, 50 or 100 watts, EL34 or 6L6. Blue is where the sauce is... Unless you have the Stealth, which has no good channels on it at all


The single most overrated amp I have ever used. Can't imagine paying upwards of 2k for a 100W Stealth new - those amps really don't compete with e.g. KSR or Revv (or Mesa, for that matter) for that sound ballpark.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Not really an unpopular opinion or whatever, but I happened to have found a PA2 while cleaning out some stuff. I'm curious if I could get it to fit in place of a regular control pot (the hole may be too big, though), and compare it to the EMG ABQ from the ALX signature set.


----------



## jarledge

I quit coming to gear forums like this one for advice on gear because a lot of user have no clue what they are talking about, and it becomes a circle jerk of repeating information. 

Guitar players are just as easy to sell to as any one else. We get caught up on terms like warm, soulful, vintage, modern, and things that are purely subjective and offer no actual quantifiable information.

Guitar players follow trends just as hard as any other group. You are constantly trying to be sold the newest latest greatest stuff, and it could be good or it could be bad. There is not substitute for sitting down and playing something and deciding if you like it regardless of how old, or new it is and what brand it is. 

I love older amps that aren't getting attention. I had a mark 3 for a few years before they got popular again. I got it super cheap and 4s and 2c+s were still really expensive. All the sudden JP has a 3 in the studio and their value skyrockets. The amp obviously didn't change, but people all the sudden wanted it because someone else was using it. I have a few older heads now, that sound just as good now as they did when they came out. 

Tonewood is a joke for electric guitars. You are again being sold by purely subjective terms . At most it impacts the "sound" marginally (less that 5% of your overall tone) . 

Speakers and cabs are vastly more important than most players realize. They are quick to try new pickups, or buy and sell amps but they will keep the same speakers and cab the entire time. 

You'll never get someone else's tone. Everything you've ever heard has been recorded meaning you get the eq curve of the mic, the position of the mic on the speaker and all the eqing done in mixing and mastering. Stop chasing a sound that may literally be impossible "in the room".


----------



## TedEH

^ You basically just described "being enthusiastic about things".


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

jarledge said:


> Tonewood is a joke for electric guitars. You are again being sold by purely subjective terms . At most it impacts the "sound" marginally (less that 5% of your overall tone) .


I think that this idea that "mahogany is dark, alder is bright" is a bit reductionist and obtuse. For instance, I think that scale length and the construction of the guitar matter more for tone implications. ie, how thick the body and neck are, the size of the headstock, the shape, etc. For instance, if the shape has the bridge too close to the edge, it may or may not have an impact on the tone.



jarledge said:


> Speakers and cabs are vastly more important than most players realize. They are quick to try new pickups, or buy and sell amps but they will keep the same speakers and cab the entire time.


This is quite true. The cab and speakers are basically the last thing to affect the tone, so why this doesn't enter into some player's minds is beyond me. For instance, a T75 might be just the thing with some amps that are really midrange focused. However, it might be the opposite of what you want if the tone is scooped or dark.


----------



## Mathemagician

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think that this idea that "mahogany is dark, alder is bright" is a bit reductionist and obtuse. For instance, I think that scale length and the construction of the guitar matter more for tone implications. ie, how thick the body and neck are, the size of the headstock, the shape, etc. For instance, if the shape has the bridge too close to the edge, it may or may not have an impact on the tone.
> 
> 
> This is quite true. The cab and speakers are basically the last thing to affect the tone, so why this doesn't enter into some player's minds is beyond me. For instance, a T75 might be just the thing with some amps that are really midrange focused. However, it might be the opposite of what you want if the tone is scooped or dark.



Because it CAN’T be the $3000 thing actually cranking out the tone. It HAS to be the specific date the metal used in the the pickup wiring was created. And we all know that the more expensive the pickup the more warm and clear and heavy and even and crunchy it will sound.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Mathemagician said:


> Because it CAN’T be the $3000 thing actually cranking out the tone. It HAS to be the specific date the metal used in the the pickup wiring was created. And we all know that the more expensive the pickup the more warm and clear and heavy and even and crunchy it will sound.


In my opinion, voicing and tone are two different things. You are talking about voicing.


----------



## op1e

sakeido said:


> The 5150-3 red channel sucks on literally every version of the amp... 15, 50 or 100 watts, EL34 or 6L6. Blue is where the sauce is... Unless you have the Stealth, which has no good channels on it at all


I kinda get that. Only thing that keeps me from ordering another one. Loved the blue channel but for ERG stuff my Peavey Ultra outshined it. My other guitarist just picked up a $425 pawn shop deal on a 6505+ and now I'm thinking of trading my Beastbox rack for a Colossus...


----------



## efiltsohg

Mahogany isn't particularly dark anyway, it's middy which is why scooped pickups work well in it


----------



## sakeido

Mathemagician said:


> Because it CAN’T be the $3000 thing actually cranking out the tone. It HAS to be the specific date the metal used in the the pickup wiring was created. And we all know that the more expensive the pickup the more warm and clear and heavy and even and crunchy it will sound.



unless the magnets they're using in the pickups are proven to have come from meteor showers making landfall on the southeastern corner of Pangea during the Paleozoic era, I'm simply not interested


----------



## sirbuh

Revv is a social media brand with average products.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

efiltsohg said:


> Mahogany isn't particularly dark anyway, it's middy which is why scooped pickups work well in it


Eh, I dunno about that. I had a Custom 5 and thought it sounded like ass.


----------



## StevenC

Mathemagician said:


> Because it CAN’T be the $3000 thing actually cranking out the tone. It HAS to be the specific date the metal used in the the pickup wiring was created. And we all know that the more expensive the pickup the more warm and clear and heavy and even and crunchy it will sound.


I'm all about that low-background steel for frets.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Pickup rings or Pickguard >>> Direct mount. I'll take function over form any day of the week.


----------



## Emperoff

jarledge said:


> Speakers and cabs are vastly more important than most players realize. They are quick to try new pickups, or buy and sell amps but they will keep the same speakers and cab the entire time..



This has a very logical explanation.
- Players give way more thought to pickups than speakers because plenty of them don't even plug into cabinets anymore. Bedroom studios, modellers, you name it. If you hate how a guitar sounds with a specific pickup, chances are you'll hate it anywhere. And people prefer to like their guitar everywhere.

- People are always looking for "the best". "best tubescreamer", "best pickups for tight metal", "best bedroom amp", "best VST", etc. But if you ever ask a metal player which is "the best cab", most of them will tell you: *Mesa Oversized 412*. So people just get "the best cab", and forget about it. Then they can obsess with the next "best something".


----------



## TedEH

It's also a lot cheaper to swap out pickups than cabs. $100 on a whim because I want a marginal improvement on tone...? Yeh, alright. $1000 on a whim for a marginal improvement on tone that might not actually be an improvement and that won't actually follow me into every playing scenario? No thanks.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

jarledge said:


> I quit coming to gear forums like this one for advice on gear because a lot of user have no clue what they are talking about, and it becomes a circle jerk of repeating information.
> 
> Guitar players are just as easy to sell to as any one else. We get caught up on terms like warm, soulful, vintage, modern, and things that are purely subjective and offer no actual quantifiable information.
> 
> Guitar players follow trends just as hard as any other group. You are constantly trying to be sold the newest latest greatest stuff, and it could be good or it could be bad. There is not substitute for sitting down and playing something and deciding if you like it regardless of how old, or new it is and what brand it is.
> 
> I love older amps that aren't getting attention. I had a mark 3 for a few years before they got popular again. I got it super cheap and 4s and 2c+s were still really expensive. All the sudden JP has a 3 in the studio and their value skyrockets. The amp obviously didn't change, but people all the sudden wanted it because someone else was using it. I have a few older heads now, that sound just as good now as they did when they came out.
> 
> Tonewood is a joke for electric guitars. You are again being sold by purely subjective terms . At most it impacts the "sound" marginally (less that 5% of your overall tone) .
> 
> Speakers and cabs are vastly more important than most players realize. They are quick to try new pickups, or buy and sell amps but they will keep the same speakers and cab the entire time.
> 
> You'll never get someone else's tone. Everything you've ever heard has been recorded meaning you get the eq curve of the mic, the position of the mic on the speaker and all the eqing done in mixing and mastering. Stop chasing a sound that may literally be impossible "in the room".


 This...ALL this.

Just buy some shit, learn how to use it and just play. Lots of people on forums like this don't even actually make music and barely even play. They just spend money on gear to have it. Nothing wrong with a hobby, but when you start telling other people what's best when you have no clue it's an issue


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TedEH said:


> It's also a lot cheaper to swap out pickups than cabs. $100 on a whim because I want a marginal improvement on tone...? Yeh, alright. $1000 on a whim for a marginal improvement on tone that might not actually be an improvement and that won't actually follow me into every playing scenario? No thanks.


Get yourself a good cab, then experiment with speakers. And speakers have a HUGE impact on the sound of your guitar.


----------



## potatohead33

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Dunno, man.
> 
> I use 25.5" scale length guitars in E standard and Eb standard. 9-11 (12 would be better, but whatever)-17-26-36-46 is great for E standard, and I can buy this set as is. (Though 12 would be a bit more even for the high B string).
> 
> However, 10-46 isn't fitting, 10-52 is too lopsided, and 11-49 is too much on the high strings. My only option is buying a 10-46 and 11-49 set, and basically light top heavy bottom hybriding the two sets together, which sucks. 24 bucks to string a guitar is absurd. The 10-13-18 is perferct for the high strings (I wish the 9-46 had a 12 high B string, just to make it closer). However, 26-36-46 is too floppy, so I have to use the 28-38-49 from the 11 set. Their solution was just to buy them separately. These are kind of a pain in the ass to source, and $4.04 for a single wound, coated string is ridiculous. $16.72 for the 10-49 custom set + a 12 for the 9-46 set. (And of course, just trying to do this as a hypothetical on Just Strings, the 0.012 won't add to my cart -- "Elixir Anti-Rust Plain Steel, .012, 13012 is not orderable.") So basically, with shipping/tax, I'm not really saving any money, and I'm getting less. The extra strings (26 and 36 particularly) come in handy if you break a D or A string. That said, I really wish they'd offer some more sets, which I pointed out to them that Ernie Ball had just done when I harassed them about doing a similar set. They said they'd "suggest it" and "think about it" and "if enough people request it, we might have to make a set."



I think we use the same string sets lol

I use 9-46 in E std but whoever put an 11 in there as standard deserves a kick in the junk, so I swap it for a 12.

Then I use 10-48 in Eb std, 11-52 in D std. I gave Ernie Ball shit on their forum a while back as to why they don't make these sets because the competition does... And then now they recently came out with both of them (and a bunch more too).

Then when I drop the low string down I usually use a 52 for drop D and 56 or 58 for drop C. Now I wish string manufacturers would make a proper set for drop tunings. They always increase the E and A strings which is effing stupid because now the A has even more tension. Like who is going to play in drop C with a 44 on the fifth string?


----------



## potatohead33

Shask said:


> I have always thought it was strange companies offer a 9->10 Hybrid set, but no one offers a 10->11 Hybrid set. Never understood that one, lol.
> 
> Maybe the DAddario 10.5 set they offer would fit. EXL110+.



They do, Ernie Ball just came out with a 10-48 set. I also think Dunlop makes one, it might be heavy core I can't remember.


----------



## Shask

potatohead33 said:


> They do, Ernie Ball just came out with a 10-48 set. I also think Dunlop makes one, it might be heavy core I can't remember.


Ah, cool. Yeah, I see those, Ultra Slinky. Those must be new. I usually always use Daddario. EB tends to die on me sooner, but I will have to give them a shot.

I went through this today also, lol. I played all my guitars, and tried to make some decisions if I wanted to adjust what they were stringed with the next restringing. I am liking the Hybrid setups. I got 9-46 for my E tuned guitars, 10-46 for Eb. 9-46+59 for my 7. My D tuned guitars have 11-49, or 10-52. I thought I would switch to 10-52, but I am thinking those are a bit too thick. I was wishing I could get a 10->11 Hybrid, but just got some normal 11-49 for now. I will try these Ultra Slinkys next time.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

potatohead33 said:


> I think we use the same string sets lol
> 
> I use 9-46 in E std but whoever put an 11 in there as standard deserves a kick in the junk, so I swap it for a 12.
> 
> Then I use 10-48 in Eb std, 11-52 in D std. I gave Ernie Ball shit on their forum a while back as to why they don't make these sets because the competition does... And then now they recently came out with both of them (and a bunch more too).
> 
> Then when I drop the low string down I usually use a 52 for drop D and 56 or 58 for drop C. Now I wish string manufacturers would make a proper set for drop tunings. They always increase the E and A strings which is effing stupid because now the A has even more tension. Like who is going to play in drop C with a 44 on the fifth string?


At least you mostly get use out of the three sets, though. I have a third set of strings that basically is a good enough just in case pair.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I used to put a piece of Styrofoam from some packaging under the strings by the nut as well as a hair tie around the headstock, because I wanted super tight starts/stops. I don't really do that anymore, as I enjoy a little resonance or "purr" after a palm mute. Plus I find sounds that facilitate this super tightness can tend to sound like gnat shit.


----------



## potatohead33

Shask said:


> Ah, cool. Yeah, I see those, Ultra Slinky. Those must be new. I usually always use Daddario. EB tends to die on me sooner, but I will have to give them a shot.
> 
> I went through this today also, lol. I played all my guitars, and tried to make some decisions if I wanted to adjust what they were stringed with the next restringing. I am liking the Hybrid setups. I got 9-46 for my E tuned guitars, 10-46 for Eb. 9-46+59 for my 7. My D tuned guitars have 11-49, or 10-52. I thought I would switch to 10-52, but I am thinking those are a bit too thick. I was wishing I could get a 10->11 Hybrid, but just got some normal 11-49 for now. I will try these Ultra Slinkys next time.



I am a string nerd I guess. I complained to Daddario years ago too on some forum (maybe here) that they don't make a 10-48 set which is dumb because it is a logical progression from 9-46. Even one of their players at the time (I think Brad Delson) said in some gear interview that he takes a pack of ten and elevens and uses the highs from the tens and the lows from the elevens.

EB came out with a bunch of new sets. They even have a new 9.5-46 set, 10.5-52 and 10.5-48 on top of the original 9-46, 10-52 and 11-48 sets. Then they also added the aforementioned 10-48 and 11-52. They basically doubled the slinky line.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I hope those sets are popular so that other brands, in my case I only care about Elixir, follow suit and have similar gauges. That said, next time I buy strings, I may order a set of 9-46, and then buy seven individual strings (12 for the 9-46 set, as well as 10 - 13 - 18 - 28 - 38 - 49).


----------



## USMarine75

Epiphone and Squier might be the best pound-for-pound guitars ever made.

I'd gladly put a $350 Squier Paranormal Jazzmaster against a $2k Fender MIA Jazzmaster (unless you're looking for modern features like the compound radius).


----------



## budda

Whenever someone says "you cant nail someone else's tone" I laugh, because there's enough YT vids to disprove this.


----------



## Adieu

Mprinsje said:


> Also, any guitar with more than 8 strings is pointless and the low notes sound like farts.





Emperoff said:


> Fixed for a more unpopular opinion





spudmunkey said:


> Hold my beer, zoomer.



It's more than FIVE


----------



## Mprinsje

oneblackened said:


> The single most overrated amp I have ever used. Can't imagine paying upwards of 2k for a 100W Stealth new - those amps really don't compete with e.g. KSR or Revv (or Mesa, for that matter) for that sound ballpark.



Man, you know what would get you in that sound ballpark for a lot less? A used 5150 II or 6505+...


----------



## Adieu

Mprinsje said:


> Man, you know what would get you in that sound ballpark for a lot less? A used 5150 II or 6505+...



Or Bugera 6262 used, for totally brokeass wannabes


----------



## oneblackened

Mprinsje said:


> Man, you know what would get you in that sound ballpark for a lot less? A used 5150 II or 6505+...


Having owned multiple 6505+'s I don't think I'd agree with that. The last one I owned was the one I liked the most and that's because I modded the piss out of it (I dropped something like $250 in new parts into it including new iron and a choke). The mids are weird on those amps.


----------



## budda

oneblackened said:


> Having owned multiple 6505+'s I don't think I'd agree with that. The last one I owned was the one I liked the most and that's because I modded the piss out of it (I dropped something like $250 in new parts into it including new iron and a choke). The mids are weird on those amps.



Weird how?


----------



## Wrecklyss

Emperoff said:


> Most gigging musicians nowadays are using Helix boards



I know I'm late to the party on this one, but that's absolutely false where I live. My band has our own lights and PA, so we hosted a stage at an annual local musician festival back in February. Not counting ourselves, we hosted 8 or 9 other bands. 1 guitarists had a Helix floor board, all the other guitarists asked for either an SM57 or a Sennheiser e609 in front of their cabs (we had both to offer) and played real amps. We mic'd our cabs and played real amps as well.


----------



## Emperoff

Wrecklyss said:


> I know I'm late to the party on this one, but that's absolutely false where I live. My band has our own lights and PA, so we hosted a stage at an annual local musician festival back in February. Not counting ourselves, we hosted 8 or 9 other bands. 1 guitarists had a Helix floor board, all the other guitarists asked for either an SM57 or a Sennheiser e609 in front of their cabs (we had both to offer) and played real amps. We mic'd our cabs and played real amps as well.



I realize I worded that wrong. I meant "pro" international bands, not giging bands in general. At least here in Europe, big acts are leaning more and more towards Axe-Fx and Line6 these days. I guess Line6 is much more popular in Europe due to availability compared to Fractal. Session and recording musicians are also heavily Helix-based. Axe FM3 might change that, though.

Glad there's still people rocking amps, though. I sure love knobs to twist, and I do regularly mid show if needed.


----------



## Alex79

I haven't read all the posts, so apologise if this has already been said:

- Duncan Design pickups are as good as the Seymour Duncan-branded pickups. (This is probably why you don't see them anymore).
- Marshall JCM900s have a bad reputation and are unfairly seen as inferior to JCM800s. This is mainly because of the popular "older is better" and "the original is the best" myths that are common in the guitar player world and the fact that most JCM900 where paired with cabs containing the inferior Celestion T-75 speaker. Most amps sound worse in band contexts with those speakers.
- All tubescreamers sound essentially the same when boosting! The main differences are price, hype and noise level. 
- The original EMGs sound totally lifeless and sterile. That's why everybody plays them with a lot of gain, where it doesn't matter anymore  
- In electric guitars, the body wood does not play a big role in tone. The neck (wood, construction, scale) on the other hand, has a much bigger effect on the tone. 
- High output pickups do not mesh well with extended range pickups (exception: active pickups). Despite this, people keep recommending and putting high output pickups in baritones and 7-/8-strings. 
- Cables: As long as it is a decent quality cable, there are NO sound differences between cables. Expensive cables that promise tone improvements are all snake oil myths pushed by the industry; it probably originates from the similar ridiculous cable cult among HiFi enthusiasts.


----------



## TedEH

Alex79 said:


> - The original EMGs sound totally lifeless and sterile. That's why everybody plays them with a lot of gain, where it doesn't matter anymore


To me, that's kind of the point of those. They're the "I don't want to hear my guitar, I just want to hear my amp" pickups.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> Glad there's still people rocking amps, though. I sure love knobs to twist, and I do regularly mid show if needed.



Enter the perform screen on the axe fx 3


----------



## oneblackened

budda said:


> Weird how?


The whole amp is very nasal sounding from some of the interstage filter choices in a range the mid control doesn't work on. 



Alex79 said:


> Marshall JCM900s have a bad reputation and are unfairly seen as inferior to JCM800s. This is mainly because of the popular "older is better" and "the original is the best" myths that are common in the guitar player world and the fact that most JCM900 where paired with cabs containing the inferior Celestion T-75 speaker. Most amps sound worse in band contexts with those speakers.


 Also because JCM900 Dual Reverbs sound like a $40 dirtbox. The other 900s sound great.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> To me, that's kind of the point of those. They're the "I don't want to hear my guitar, I just want to hear my amp" pickups.



If anything, you should be hearing "more" whatever that actually means. 

Active pickups like EMGs are low impedance (vs. traditional passives which are high impedance). This results in a much broader frequency range being represented. 

The preamp is used to bring the wider frequency, but more quiet, signal up to level compatible with conventional instrument amplifiers. It'll color the sound, but you'll get "more" in the signal in as far as what's being produced by the vibrating strings. 

So with actives you do hear, objectively, more of your "guitar" (well, at least the strings vibrating), and less coloration, it's just that the guitar doesn't actually impact the sound like folks expect it to.


----------



## budda

oneblackened said:


> The whole amp is very nasal sounding from some of the interstage filter choices in a range the mid control doesn't work on.



This makes me wonder what the rest of the signal chain was. I dont think I've ever used nasal as a descriptor of a 5150.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> This makes me wonder what the rest of the signal chain was. I dont think I've ever used nasal as a descriptor of a 5150.



"Nasal metal" is my favourite Axe-Fx amp model


----------



## Seabeast2000

Emperoff said:


> "Nasal metal" is my favourite Axe-Fx amp model



Better than the alternative.


----------



## Necky379

Alex79 said:


> I haven't read all the posts, so apologise if this has already been said:
> 
> - Duncan Design pickups are as good as the Seymour Duncan-branded pickups. (This is probably why you don't see them anymore).
> - Marshall JCM900s have a bad reputation and are unfairly seen as inferior to JCM800s. This is mainly because of the popular "older is better" and "the original is the best" myths that are common in the guitar player world and the fact that most JCM900 where paired with cabs containing the inferior Celestion T-75 speaker. Most amps sound worse in band contexts with those speakers.
> - All tubescreamers sound essentially the same when boosting! The main differences are price, hype and noise level.
> - The original EMGs sound totally lifeless and sterile. That's why everybody plays them with a lot of gain, where it doesn't matter anymore
> - In electric guitars, the body wood does not play a big role in tone. The neck (wood, construction, scale) on the other hand, has a much bigger effect on the tone.
> - High output pickups do not mesh well with extended range pickups (exception: active pickups). Despite this, people keep recommending and putting high output pickups in baritones and 7-/8-strings.
> - Cables: As long as it is a decent quality cable, there are NO sound differences between cables. Expensive cables that promise tone improvements are all snake oil myths pushed by the industry; it probably originates from the similar ridiculous cable cult among HiFi enthusiasts.




Unpopular opinion on the internet: I think G12T’s sound crushing. I have two cabs loaded with them. These are the cabs you run your mids cranked through.


----------



## sakeido

Alex79 said:


> - In electric guitars, the body wood does not play a big role in tone. The neck (wood, construction, scale) on the other hand, has a much bigger effect on the tone.



I might be insane but I think the type of fret wire used makes a big impact on tone. My guitars with stainless frets are noticeably brighter than my guitars with nickel frets


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Celestion G12T-75 are the worst piles of shit ever created. Those are by far the worst speakers I've ever heard and they turn any amp into a "Guitar Center guitar player" tone maker

The 5150 series ain't that special and there are a million amps much more suited to metal tones.


----------



## oneblackened

budda said:


> This makes me wonder what the rest of the signal chain was. I dont think I've ever used nasal as a descriptor of a 5150.


It's literally only the II/+. The regular one and the none of the IIIs do that. That 470pf cap acting as a high pass between V1A and V1B (or V1B and V1A? I don't remember the order) and the 1nF coupling between V1B and V2A (or V1A/V2B) are the culprits. Revert them to Soldano/5150 I values and the problem goes away.


----------



## efiltsohg

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Celestion G12T-75 are the worst piles of shit ever created. Those are by far the worst speakers I've ever heard and they turn any amp into a "Guitar Center guitar player" tone maker









in a world where 70-80s, Rockets, and Sheffields exist? just lol

not to mention 1000000 different unbranded chinese junk speakers in cheap combos


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

efiltsohg said:


> in a world where 70-80s, Rockets, and Sheffields exist? just lol
> 
> not to mention 1000000 different unbranded chinese junk speakers in cheap combos


----------



## oneblackened

The problem with T75s is that the Chinese one is a VERY different sounding speaker from the UK one. Like not just "one's broken in and the other isn't", the UK one has a _lot_ more midrange and isn't so fizzy and weird.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Alex79 said:


> - High output pickups do not mesh well with extended range pickups (exception: active pickups). Despite this, people keep recommending and putting high output pickups in baritones and 7-/8-strings.



+1

Tried this myself with a lower output (8.9K) pup in a 27" 7-string. Definitely feels like the way to go.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>




I figured you were going to go, "I meant actual speakers." Instead, you just doubled down and said fuck anyone who had a problem with it. Awesome!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Carl Kolchak said:


> +1
> 
> Tried this myself with a lower output (8.9K) pup in a 27" 7-string. Definitely feels like the way to go.


Imagine you are dealing with a distortion pedal. You don't want a bunch of low end early in the circuit, before the gain. Otherwise, you have to lower the gain to get it to sound right. For instance, the DS-1 has a lot of bass pre-gain, and there is a stage where it adds gain before the distortion stages. This results in it sounding sorta like a fuzz. You have to lower the bass and get that pre-gain stage biased correctly to get rid of some of the issues.


----------



## budda

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Celestion G12T-75 are the worst piles of shit ever created. Those are by far the worst speakers I've ever heard and they turn any amp into a "Guitar Center guitar player" tone maker
> 
> The 5150 series ain't that special and there are a million amps much more suited to metal tones.



Why you gotta say that


----------



## rokket2005

budda said:


> Why you gotta say that


We're in the bad takes thread. Isn't that what you came here for?


----------



## budda

rokket2005 said:


> We're in the bad takes thread. Isn't that what you came here for?



Yeah... it's the who not the what  (knowing DT probably doesnt go for a single tone that I do).


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Imagine you are dealing with a distortion pedal. You don't want a bunch of low end early in the circuit, before the gain. Otherwise, you have to lower the gain to get it to sound right. For instance, the DS-1 has a lot of bass pre-gain, and there is a stage where it adds gain before the distortion stages. This results in it sounding sorta like a fuzz. You have to lower the bass and get that pre-gain stage biased correctly to get rid of some of the issues.


Which is also why I went with a pup that had lots of treble, a medium amount of mids, and those pleasantly restrained lows. Seemed the obvious solution to excessive flub and mid-honk as far as I was concerned.


----------



## Alex79

TedEH said:


> To me, that's kind of the point of those. They're the "I don't want to hear my guitar, I just want to hear my amp" pickups.



That's why I added the smiley ;-)



sakeido said:


> I might be insane but I think the type of fret wire used makes a big impact on tone. My guitars with stainless frets are noticeably brighter than my guitars with nickel frets



Yes, this was what I was trying to convey: neck and its construction/pieces put a much bigger stamp on the tone than the body. I would include the frets in that as well.


----------



## Alex79

efiltsohg said:


> in a world where 70-80s, Rockets, and Sheffields exist? just lol
> 
> not to mention 1000000 different unbranded chinese junk speakers in cheap combos



The 70-80s can sound ok in some amps, if suited to the tonality. The Rockets are a budget speaker, aren't they? I don't think it's fair to compare it with the T-75, which aims to be in the same league as the V30, Greenback etc. 
I don't know what a Sheffield speaker is.

The big problem with the T-75 is that if you play louder it doesn't cut in a busy mix. It's saving grace is really only when it is mixed with other speakers, as it gives a bit more robust low end to the mix.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Alex79 said:


> That's why I added the smiley ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this was what I was trying to convey: neck and its construction/pieces put a much bigger stamp on the tone than the body. I would include the frets in that as well.


Is there such a thing as "neck woods"? I know maple is supposed to sound brighter, but what other sonic properties are other popular neck woods supposed to be imparting?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Speakers like the G1265s and T75s were designed for mid heavy amps like Marshalls and Mesa Marks. When you have more modern amps with more flexible EQs, they can get buried.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Speakers like the G1265s and T75s were designed for mid heavy amps like Marshalls and Mesa Marks. When you have more modern amps with more flexible EQs, they can get buried.



I've tried those speakers with all sorts of amps, both live and in studio..I just hate the sound and always have.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> Why you gotta say that



I don't hate the 5150 series but it's just super generic and nothing special to me. I've never heard one I thought was amazing.


----------



## Emperoff

Carl Kolchak said:


> Is there such a thing as "neck woods"? I know maple is supposed to sound brighter, but what other sonic properties are other popular neck woods supposed to be imparting?



Yeah, neck wood definetely affects the tone but most of them are maple anyway. Maple is a very resistant wood so it holds up the best to any climate changes. It's the most stable (easily available) wood. You'd probably heard of tuning and intonation issues on figured maple necks (birdseye, flame, etc) before. Those maple variations are much softer than standard "rock" maple. This is why now are "roasted/caramelized", to dry them out and make them stiffer.

If a fretboard can affect the tone, imagine what the whole neck can do, specially in neckthru guitars (where the neck becomes 70% of the guitar).


----------



## efiltsohg

Alex79 said:


> The 70-80s can sound ok in some amps, if suited to the tonality. The Rockets are a budget speaker, aren't they? I don't think it's fair to compare it with the T-75, which aims to be in the same league as the V30, Greenback etc.
> I don't know what a Sheffield speaker is.
> 
> The big problem with the T-75 is that if you play louder it doesn't cut in a busy mix. It's saving grace is really only when it is mixed with other speakers, as it gives a bit more robust low end to the mix.



thousands of albums with great guitar tone and good mixes were recorded on T75s


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

efiltsohg said:


> thousands of albums with great guitar tone and good mixes were recorded on T75s


They'd have been better with real speakers


----------



## sirbuh

looks like its time to rename this thread "predictable opinions on gear"


----------



## SexHaver420

Any tube amp under 100 watts is complete trash and lacks bass response and clarity.

Boosted lower gain amps sound way better and more organic than the modern amps that get all of their gain from their preamps. 

If you play rock music/metal music and don't want to play as loud as you possibly can you're a coward. If your band doesn't maintain at least 120 db you need to get actual amps and not these tiny lunchbox toy heads.

5150/6505s are fizzy garbage even with an eq pedal and a Butcher sounds better and is way easier to boost and louder.

The EVM12L is the only good speaker even though they're super heavy and moving cabs with them sucks.

Any cabinet under a 4x12 is for children and shouldn't even exist.

The HM-2 is a killer pedal on bass and a killer overdrive for guitar but the average owner of one is dumb and just goes haha all knobs on 10.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

SexHaver420 said:


> Any tube amp under 100 watts is complete trash and lacks bass response and clarity.
> 
> Boosted lower gain amps sound way better and more organic than the modern amps that get all of their gain from their preamps.



I got a 20 watt JCM800 that I'm boosting with a Fortin Grind, and couldn't be happier diming the tone sweeps.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> Any tube amp under 100 watts is complete trash and lacks bass response and clarity.
> 
> Boosted lower gain amps sound way better and more organic than the modern amps that get all of their gain from their preamps.
> 
> If you play rock music/metal music and don't want to play as loud as you possibly can you're a coward. If your band doesn't maintain at least 120 db you need to get actual amps and not these tiny lunchbox toy heads.
> 
> 5150/6505s are fizzy garbage even with an eq pedal and a Butcher sounds better and is way easier to boost and louder.
> 
> The EVM12L is the only good speaker even though they're super heavy and moving cabs with them sucks.
> 
> Any cabinet under a 4x12 is for children and shouldn't even exist.
> 
> The HM-2 is a killer pedal on bass and a killer overdrive for guitar but the average owner of one is dumb and just goes haha all knobs on 10.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>



Hey, this guy was complaining the unpopular opinions were becoming predictable, so I guess someone had to do soemthing about it! .


sirbuh said:


> looks like its time to rename this thread "predictable opinions on gear"


----------



## StevenC

efiltsohg said:


> thousands of albums with great guitar tone and good mixes were recorded on T75s


Feel like arguing against an unpopular opinion by saying "it's popular though" is a bit redundant


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Single coil pickups sound awesome for metal


----------



## SexHaver420

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Single coil pickups sound awesome for metal



Metal was literally invented on p90s and for everything besides tight chuggy death metal I think single coils are amazing. I used to be in a sludgy stoner kinda band and I played a strat/tele/p90 sg. They have so much more clarity and character than really hot humbuckers and they clean up better.

Also Endon is one of the heaviest and harshest bands I've seen live and they have one guitarist who plays a strat with single coils.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

SexHaver420 said:


> Metal was literally invented on p90s and for everything besides tight chuggy death metal I think single coils are amazing. I used to be in a sludgy stoner kinda band and I played a strat/tele/p90 sg. They have so much more clarity and character than really hot humbuckers and they clean up better.
> 
> Also Endon is one of the heaviest and harshest bands I've seen live and they have one guitarist who plays a strat with single coils.


Mixing a single coil or P90 track with a humbucker track (1-3 depending on how many you want) could sound killer. I'd probably put an SC or P90 track in the center ghosted a dB or two with the humbucker tracks panned 80/80.

The SC/P90 track would be "cleanest" of the tracks, with maybe a light boost for some crunch. Then the humbucker tracks would have less gain but more distorted because of the dual coils.


----------



## StevenC

SexHaver420 said:


> Metal was literally invented on p90s and for everything besides tight chuggy death metal I think single coils are amazing. I used to be in a sludgy stoner kinda band and I played a strat/tele/p90 sg. They have so much more clarity and character than really hot humbuckers and they clean up better.
> 
> Also Endon is one of the heaviest and harshest bands I've seen live and they have one guitarist who plays a strat with single coils.


Metal was invented on a strat, it was only first recorded on P90s.


----------



## efiltsohg

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They'd have been better with real speakers



99% of albums recorded on v30s would be better with T75s

but modern metal guitarists are huge conformists who are incapable of shaping a tone with their ears



StevenC said:


> Feel like arguing against an unpopular opinion by saying "it's popular though" is a bit redundant



Mine is the unpopular opinion on this site, not his


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

efiltsohg said:


> 99% of albums recorded on v30s would be better with T75s
> 
> but modern metal guitarists are huge conformists who are incapable of shaping a tone with their ears
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is the unpopular opinion on this site, not his



Hello, police? I'd like to report a hate crime


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

efiltsohg said:


> but modern metal guitarists are huge conformists who are incapable of shaping a tone with their ears


People in general are incapable of thinking for themselves.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Spaced Out Ace said:


> People in general are incapable of thinking for themselves.


It's a lonely road......


----------



## oneblackened

SexHaver420 said:


> The EVM12L is the only good speaker even though they're super heavy and moving cabs with them sucks.


Not to mention cost a fucking fortune. $300 a speaker is a LOT. I'd like to get a cab loaded with them though. Probably only a 2x12 though...



efiltsohg said:


> 99% of albums recorded on v30s would be better with T75s


Not sure I agree with that - but G12H30s are sorely underrated speakers and should be used on more amps. Creamback H75s, too. 

Speaking of underrated speakers, Eminence Legend V12s and GB12s are sorely underrated especially considering how cheap they are.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

oneblackened said:


> Not sure I agree with that - but G12H30s are sorely underrated speakers and should be used on more amps. Creamback H75s, too.



Oh god those things are pure sex.


----------



## Adieu

efiltsohg said:


> 99% of albums recorded on v30s would be better with T75s
> 
> but modern metal guitarists are huge conformists who are incapable of shaping a tone with their ears
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is the unpopular opinion on this site, not his



Doesn't really add up, what with the generic popularity of the 1960A


----------



## Necky379

SexHaver420 said:


> Any tube amp under 100 watts is complete trash and lacks bass response and clarity.
> 
> Boosted lower gain amps sound way better and more organic than the modern amps that get all of their gain from their preamps.
> 
> If you play rock music/metal music and don't want to play as loud as you possibly can you're a coward. If your band doesn't maintain at least 120 db you need to get actual amps and not these tiny lunchbox toy heads.
> 
> 5150/6505s are fizzy garbage even with an eq pedal and a Butcher sounds better and is way easier to boost and louder.
> 
> The EVM12L is the only good speaker even though they're super heavy and moving cabs with them sucks.
> 
> Any cabinet under a 4x12 is for children and shouldn't even exist.
> 
> The HM-2 is a killer pedal on bass and a killer overdrive for guitar but the average owner of one is dumb and just goes haha all knobs on 10.



I disagree with you, very fitting post though. For discussion’s sake and I’d like to respond.

“Any tube amp under 100 watts...”
Not my experience, I prefer wattage and big trannies but I think speakers need to be considered when discussing clarity and bass response. If you’re talking up EV’s you know what I’m getting at.

“Boosted lower gain amps sound...”
Can’t argue with this, I’ll just say a Bassman as great as it is can’t do what a 5150 does. You like it or don’t but they’re different things, comparing apples to tangerines.

“If you play rock...”
Been to a few shows that were so loud the performance was not enjoyable. Based on my limited experience this is on the sound guy. The most recent example I have was High on Fire, a band I love seeing live. I watched the sound guy push the faders up on the board and nobody in the crowd appreciated the massive volume increase.

“5150/6505’s are fizzy garbage...Butchers...”
In a band setting the fizz is irrelevant. The only amp that could bully my 5150 that I’ve come across was a 100 watt AOR, the 5150 still sounded better. Had a Butcher, cool amp shouldn’t have sold it but again, totally different from a 5150.

“The EVM12L is the only good speaker...”
Try pushing a greenback or sending a properly dialed amp through an OS Mesa. You might prefer an EV but more iconic tones came through other speakers. Speaker compression can be desirable.

“Any cab under 4x12...”
Any quality cab with quality speakers in its sweet spot with a mic in front sounds as good as a 4x12. 4x12 specs and dimensions are based off of aesthetics and portability.

“The HM-2...”
Nothing to add, I agree with your opinion here.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Oh cool I get to say how I really feel about EVM. I fucking haaaate the 12L.  It's basically a G12K85/G12K100 but a LOT more hollow and boxy. EVM makes great bass speakers (nothing beats a Gallien Krueger pushing a pair of EVM 15's), but god I fucking hate them with guitar.

EDIT: Also Zakk Wylde's tone went to shit when he switched to EVM in the mid '90s.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Don't Cannibal Corpse use the Zakk Wylde EVMs? Can't argue with that tone, but perhaps it'd be better with other speakers. Who knows.


----------



## USMarine75

oneblackened said:


> Not to mention cost a fucking fortune. $300 a speaker is a LOT. I'd like to get a cab loaded with them though. Probably only a 2x12 though...
> 
> 
> Not sure I agree with that - but G12H30s are sorely underrated speakers and should be used on more amps. Creamback H75s, too.
> 
> Speaking of underrated speakers, Eminence Legend V12s and GB12s are sorely underrated especially considering how cheap they are.



Try JBL K120 or D120F in a Marshall cab... I don't understand why no one makes a speaker like these anymore. The Tone Tubby Purple Haze is said to be similar in tone even though many of its specs are different. But they are $500+ per speaker and they weigh a ton.


----------



## Necky379

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Don't Cannibal Corpse use the Zakk Wylde EVMs? Can't argue with that tone, but perhaps it'd be better with other speakers. Who knows.



Cannibal Corpse definitely have a great sound IMO. Maybe an unpopular opinion but BLS’s live show sounded immense and if it’s because of Zakk’s speakers then that says a lot. But...”The EVM12L is the only good speaker” is an easy statement to debate against.


----------



## DiezelMonster

Sorry.

I've spent multiple hours with Krampers, Hax Heffex1,2,3 and I swear this one, and Feelix floor/rack and they sound like broken epson printers in a live setting. I'm glad you guys are getting them to work but honestly they sound and feel like a red headed step child. On meth. 

Crucify me pls. I need wrist realignment surgery anyway.


----------



## USMarine75

DiezelMonster said:


> Sorry.
> 
> I've spent multiple hours with Krampers, Hax Heffex1,2,3 and I swear this one, and Feelix floor/rack and they sound like broken epson printers in a live setting. I'm glad you guys are getting them to work but honestly they sound and feel like a red headed step child. On meth.
> 
> Crucify me pls. I need wrist realignment surgery anyway.



Sounds like someone was using the GGD All the Gainz pack


----------



## Carl Kolchak

efiltsohg said:


> 99% of albums recorded on v30s would be better with T75s
> 
> but modern metal guitarists are huge conformists who are incapable of shaping a tone with their ears



The Andy Sneap Forums anyone? 

I remember when it was all EMG 81>ts>5150>Mesa OS w/ V30s>SM57. 

And when SSO was little more than an on-line lonely hearts club for Misha/Periphery fetishists. 

Admittedly things have improved substantially on SSO since then, so there's that.


----------



## lewis

Carl Kolchak said:


> The Andy Sneap Forums anyone?
> 
> I remember when it was all EMG 81>ts>5150>Mesa OS w/ V30s>SM57.
> 
> And when SSO was little more than an on-line lonely hearts club for Misha/Periphery fetishists.
> 
> Admittedly things have improved substantially on SSO since then, so there's that.



Used to love sneap and Scott atkins - then i lost all love for both when they started bashing modern metal bands.
Literally if you dont sound like Exodus, they wont work with you.

The latter specifically told me that and also hated on bands using Midi drums too infront of me


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

lewis said:


> Used to love sneap and Scott atkins - then i lost all love for both when they started bashing modern metal bands.
> Literally if you dont sound like Exodus, they wont work with you.
> 
> The latter specifically told me that and also hated on bands using Midi drums too infront of me



They got a point. The whole modern metal 34 string guitar tuned down to HIV+ broken Meshuggah Periphery knockoff-core of today is garbage. If I were a music producer I wouldn't want to do it either. Who wants to be stuck listening and producing crap you hate and care nothing about? And most metal producers hate fake drums. All these bands are trying to be "perfect" and it all starts to sound bland and the same

I think it's an age thing..It's not really the music they're into and kids these days are all about what they're growing up listening to.


----------



## lewis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They got a point. The whole modern metal 34 string guitar tuned down to HIV+ broken Meshuggah Periphery knockoff-core of today is garbage. If I were a music producer I wouldn't want to do it either. Who wants to be stuck listening and producing crap you hate and care nothing about? And most metal producers hate fake drums. All these bands are trying to be "perfect" and it all starts to sound bland and the same
> 
> I think it's an age thing..It's not really the music they're into and kids these days are all about what they're growing up listening to.



yeah but if all producers were like that before/during the Sabbath era to suppress the evolution of the genre, we would never had gotten the bands that they (Sneap) and their generation are biased with (Metallica, Exodus, Slayer, Megadeth etc)


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The whole modern metal 34 string guitar tuned down to HIV+ broken Meshuggah Periphery knockoff-core of today is garbage.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

lewis said:


> yeah but if all producers were like that before/during the Sabbath era to suppress the evolution of the genre, we would never had gotten the bands that they (Sneap) and their generation are biased with (Metallica, Exodus, Slayer, Megadeth etc)


 Not true. There are lots of producers who will gladly do it. They're lucky to be at a point where they can pick and choose what interests them and they don't want to be stuck doing garbage. I know lots of people who own studios...trust me...they all want to be at the point where they don't have to deal with genres and musicians they hate and still pay the bills. Usually that's what newbie engineers/producers are for when they get hired, or interns. They get the cases the main dude doesn't want to bother with.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They got a point. The whole modern metal 34 string guitar tuned down to HIV+ broken Meshuggah Periphery knockoff-core of today is garbage. If I were a music producer I wouldn't want to do it either. Who wants to be stuck listening and producing crap you hate and care nothing about? And most metal producers hate fake drums. All these bands are trying to be "perfect" and it all starts to sound bland and the same
> 
> I think it's an age thing..It's not really the music they're into and kids these days are all about what they're growing up listening to.


Hear, hear.

I remember watching an interview with Tom Warrior where he voiced a similar opinion regarding modern metal, derisively referring to it as little more than finger Olympics.

As for producers, recording/studio engineers, etc. are concerned they're basically dinosaurs/living fossils at this point.


----------



## lewis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Not true. There are lots of producers who will gladly do it. They're lucky to be at a point where they can pick and choose what interests them and they don't want to be stuck doing garbage. I know lots of people who own studios...trust me...they all want to be at the point where they don't have to deal with genres and musicians they hate and still pay the bills. Usually that's what newbie engineers/producers are for when they get hired, or interns. They get the cases the main dude doesn't want to bother with.



I get that, but imo, as one of if not the biggest named producer in the genre, you have a responsibility to not be so blatantly closed off to the genre evolving.

its why Festivals for example, have been fucking trash for years. Download Festival in the UK has the same lineup of "legends" every year.
They dont give proper chances to up and coming bands or even huge bands but that play modern metal instead and would rather cling to old bands repeatedly.

I feel like if the big names in the scene (Sneap etc), were more accomodating, it would filter down from the top and have a positive knock on effect to the whole genre in general.
Alot of people like yourself may think modern metal bands are trash, and easy to mock - because of the opinions of your peers.

Bands like Architects should have easily been given a headline Download Festival slot by now. And thats just one example.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Carl Kolchak said:


> As for producers, recording/studio engineers, etc. are concerned they're basically dinosaurs/living fossils at this point.



I wouldn't say they're fossils. Yeah everyone has home recording stuff but that doesn't make them a producer. There's an artform in there and when good musicians write good music and get into the hands of a good producer, magic happens. Just in terms of my own stuff, I'm always fascinated by producers and how deep their job goes. Right now I do all my own stuff because it's cheaper, easier, and I like the way it sounds...but if I had the money I would DEFINITELY go to some of my favorite producers because they're worth the money. Micing drums is an artform alone, and LOTS of guys don't do it all that well, especially since it's easier to just use fake drums.


----------



## TedEH

lewis said:


> you have a responsibility to not be so blatantly closed off to the genre evolving.


MIDI drums and/or sample replacement are not new, nor are they an evolution of a genre.

While I tend to think a job is a job and an engineer should just do what the client wants, they don't have any responsibility to push genres or something.

That being said, I'm still on team "real drums". Do whatever you think sounds good, I don't have any "ethical" problem with using any tools you want, but a real drummer still has so much more character most of the time. Metal / heavy music sounds pretty same-y when it's all produced with the same kick drum samples, the same amp models, etc.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I wouldn't say they're fossils. Yeah everyone has home recording stuff but that doesn't make them a producer. There's an artform in there and when good musicians write good music and get into the hands of a good producer, magic happens. Just in terms of my own stuff, I'm always fascinated by producers and how deep their job goes. Right now I do all my own stuff because it's cheaper, easier, and I like the way it sounds...but if I had the money I would DEFINITELY go to some of my favorite producers because they're worth the money. Micing drums is an artform alone, and LOTS of guys don't do it all that well, especially since it's easier to just use fake drums.


Meh.

DL Reaper for free, and rent Waves for a month. Anyone still blowing money to record in a studio today is certifiable. The days of the gate-keeping middlemen are over.


----------



## Emperoff

Carl Kolchak said:


> And when SSO was little more than an on-line lonely hearts club for Misha/Periphery fetishists.
> 
> Admittedly things have improved substantially on SSO since then, so there's that.



Have they? Really?


----------



## Carl Kolchak

lewis said:


> yeah but if all producers were like that before/during the Sabbath era to suppress the evolution of the genre, we would never had gotten the bands that they (Sneap) and their generation are biased with (Metallica, Exodus, Slayer, Megadeth etc)


Except knob-turners aren't the ones writing the music, are they? Musicians influence other musicians. Genres evolve organically out of the artist's need to express their art. Those Bay Area bands you mentioned existed because those musicians were informally inspiring each other with their demos back then. Nothing's changed. If you couldn't afford to record in a studio you simply recorded onto cassette tape. The only thing that's fundamentally changed today is the ease with which any musician make their recordings.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Emperoff said:


> Have they? Really?


Compared to those days in question, yes.


----------



## Emperoff

Carl Kolchak said:


> Compared to those days in question, yes.



Here, check this 770 page thread that you might have missed:
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/periphery-megathread-everything-periphery.121110/unread

Oh, and this 164 page thread as well regarding a certain signature guitar:
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/mishas-sig.285658/page-164


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Emperoff said:


> Here, check this 770 page thread that you might have missed:
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/periphery-megathread-everything-periphery.121110/unread
> 
> Oh, and this 164 page thread as well regarding a certain signature guitar:
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/mishas-sig.285658/page-164


Yes, but those threads are now contained in their own little ghettos where they belong, and are not being allowed to pollute the surrounding area any longer. This is, imo, a step forward for SSO.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

lewis said:


> I get that, but imo, as one of if not the biggest named producer in the genre, you have a responsibility to not be so blatantly closed off to the genre evolving.
> 
> its why Festivals for example, have been fucking trash for years. Download Festival in the UK has the same lineup of "legends" every year.
> They dont give proper chances to up and coming bands or even huge bands but that play modern metal instead and would rather cling to old bands repeatedly.
> 
> I feel like if the big names in the scene (Sneap etc), were more accomodating, it would filter down from the top and have a positive knock on effect to the whole genre in general.
> Alot of people like yourself may think modern metal bands are trash, and easy to mock - because of the opinions of your peers.
> 
> Bands like Architects should have easily been given a headline Download Festival slot by now. And thats just one example.



The thing with a festival like Download is that they have to sell hundreds of tickets and the only way to sell hundreds of tickets at Download prices is to hire bands like Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and Def Leppard, because that’s what middle aged metallers with large amounts of disposable income want to see.

Architects headlining Download would involve them playing to 85 of their fans in a field as everyone else drives home rather than a music festival .

You can’t think of Download as a music festival anymore, nowadays it’s simply a business venture.


----------



## budda

Carl Kolchak said:


> Meh.
> 
> DL Reaper for free, and rent Waves for a month. Anyone still blowing money to record in a studio today is certifiable. The days of the gate-keeping middlemen are over.



I have a hunch you've never had a good studio experience with a producer .


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Carl Kolchak said:


> Meh.
> 
> DL Reaper for free, and rent Waves for a month. Anyone still blowing money to record in a studio today is certifiable. The days of the gate-keeping middlemen are over.



Care to put your mixes up against professionals?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> Have they? Really?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> I have a hunch you've never had a good studio experience with a producer .



That's probably most people's experience, especially early on.

Just like there are good and bad bands, there are good and bad producers, and like bands there are far more awful ones than good ones.

The same garbage in = garbage out applies as well.

The chances of an up and coming metal band finding a great producer for thier first or second release is almost unheard of unless you already have a huge live/social media following or tons of money/industry connections.

I can see how, given that situation and seeing some great self recorded content that folks wouldn't be excited to play "producer roulette".

The thing is, there is a lot of talent in those cases. Say what you will about some of these guys, but they have tons of pure talent and a drive not often seen.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's probably most people's experience, especially early on.
> 
> Just like there are good and bad bands, there are good and bad producers, and like bands there are far more awful ones than good ones.
> 
> The same garbage in = garbage out applies as well.
> 
> The chances of an up and coming metal band finding a great producer for thier first or second release is almost unheard of unless you already have a huge live/social media following or tons of money/industry connections.
> 
> I can see how, given that situation and seeing some great self recorded content that folks wouldn't be excited to play "producer roulette".



This. My first album I let a "professional" do and I ended up disliking the sound. I dislike it so much that I'm gonna redo it myself and re-release it. I didn't know much at the time so I thought by going to a "professional" that it would be done right. I now know better and I also know what to look for in terms of a producer and engineer.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Care to put your mixes up against professionals?


Sure.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This. My first album I let a "professional" do and I ended up disliking the sound. I dislike it so much that I'm gonna redo it myself and re-release it. I didn't know much at the time so I thought by going to a "professional" that it would be done right. I now know better and I also know what to look for in terms of a producer and engineer.



Unfortunately, it usually takes a few experiences like this for most to find what their needs are.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Carl Kolchak said:


> Sure.


Link to some stuff?


----------



## TedEH

Carl Kolchak said:


> Anyone still blowing money to record in a studio today is certifiable.


As much as I get this line of thinking, I still can't quite agree at face value. As soon as real instruments get involved, acoustic drums, etc., some experience goes a long way. I just did some drum tracking a while back, and while we're going to be doing a lot of the production ourselves, I'm glad to have gone down this path for a number of reasons:

- Someone who does this for a living is equipped for things like making sure your shells are tuned in a way that will record well
- The access to a proper treated room to do your tracking in makes the result so much more predictable
- Access to the mics, gear, etc., and someone with the experience to choose the right tools and use them properly
- The experience with mic choices and placement make a huge difference
- Having someone else handle the engineering part of the process means I can focus on just the performance, and the performance reflects this
- An outside voice can keep you from making too many compromises ("this mic placement is probably fine, why bother trying other things", "I can fix this performance in post", etc.)

_Can_ you accomplish all those things on your own? Maybe. But there's a pretty significant risk of a lower quality end result, plus the time it takes to learn the craft, the time spent experimenting with placement and trying different mics, the likelihood that you're in a less ideal listening environment, etc.

It's a trade-off: If you have all the time in the world, are willing to iterate a lot, potentially make some compromises, then sure - do the diy thing. If you have a time constraint, no proper room to track or listen in, no experience with mic choices, etc. - you're going to have a better time going to someone who can help you with this.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Link to some stuff?


I would have to record that with a band, which I don't have atm.


----------



## oneblackened

Carl Kolchak said:


> Meh.
> 
> DL Reaper for free, and rent Waves for a month. Anyone still blowing money to record in a studio today is certifiable. The days of the gate-keeping middlemen are over.


As an engineer, all I can say is lol. This is how you get shitty records.


----------



## Emperoff

TedEH said:


> As much as I get this line of thinking, I still can't quite agree at face value. As soon as real instruments get involved, acoustic drums, etc., some experience goes a long way. I just did some drum tracking a while back, and while we're going to be doing a lot of the production ourselves, I'm glad to have gone down this path for a number of reasons:
> 
> - Someone who does this for a living is equipped for things like making sure your shells are tuned in a way that will record well
> - The access to a proper treated room to do your tracking in makes the result so much more predictable
> - Access to the mics, gear, etc., and someone with the experience to choose the right tools and use them properly
> - The experience with mic choices and placement make a huge difference
> - Having someone else handle the engineering part of the process means I can focus on just the performance, and the performance reflects this
> - An outside voice can keep you from making too many compromises ("this mic placement is probably fine, why bother trying other things", "I can fix this performance in post", etc.)
> 
> _Can_ you accomplish all those things on your own? Maybe. But there's a pretty significant risk of a lower quality end result, plus the time it takes to learn the craft, the time spent experimenting with placement and trying different mics, the likelihood that you're in a less ideal listening environment, etc.
> 
> It's a trade-off: If you have all the time in the world, are willing to iterate a lot, potentially make some compromises, then sure - do the diy thing. If you have a time constraint, no proper room to track or listen in, no experience with mic choices, etc. - you're going to have a better time going to someone who can help you with this.



All of this.

One of my bands is currently recording an album. The other guitar player is a live sound guy that has recording stuff and insisted on recording ourselves. When we sent the drum tracks for mixing, two studios said that they would apply samples as the recording wasn't great (they were probably too polite). He refused because that would "ruin his and the drummer's work". So in the end, we ended up recording ourselves AND he is gonna mix it as well. I opposed because I wanted to spend money on a decent studio, even if that involved re-recording the drums. He convinced everyone not to, because of money.

Well, it's been TWO FUCKING YEARS from that. Because, you know, life. "I'm busy, I currently don't have time to quantize drums", "I have this", "I have that". So there's always something pushing things further. If you pay for a studio, you'll better off moving your ass and getting shit done. Not the case with "DIY productions".

So yeah, good luck with your Reaper + Waves albums. I'll let you guys know when my shitty demo is released.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

oneblackened said:


> As an engineer, all I can say is lol. This is how you get shitty records.


Orlly?

Because there exists, like some transcendental Platonic Idea floating serenely in the ether above, this wholly objective standard by which all recordings are deemed to sound either good or bad?

Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter home recording software is only getting better and cheaper. I mean it wasn't that long ago that Pod Farm was considered state of the art. Now imagine the technological advances that will be available to home recorders in another five years?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I never thought John Syke's tone for Whitesnake '87 was anything special. I know a lot of people LOVE that sounds, which is why I bring it up when I talk about the Mesa Mark III, but to be honest it never did anything for me.  I thought Suicidal Tendencies' Lights Camera Revolution and Art of Rebellion was a better showcase of the Mark III.


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


> All of this.
> 
> One of my bands is currently recording an album. The other guitar player is a live sound guy that has recording stuff and insisted on recording ourselves. When we sent the drum tracks for mixing, two studios said that they would apply samples as the recording wasn't great (they were probably too polite). He refused because that would "ruin his and the drummer's work". So in the end, we ended up recording ourselves AND he is gonna mix it as well. I opposed because I wanted to spend money on a decent studio, even if that involved re-recording the drums. He convinced everyone not to, because of money.
> 
> Well, it's been TWO FUCKING YEARS from that. Because, you know, life. "I'm busy, I currently don't have time to quantize drums", "I have this", "I have that". So there's always something pushing things further. If you pay for a studio, you'll better off moving your ass and getting shit done. Not the case with "DIY productions".
> 
> So yeah, good luck with your Reaper + Waves albums. I'll let you guys know when my shitty demo is released.


What's the point in preserving "his and the drummer's work" if he's just going to quantize it all anyway? Amounts to the same.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They got a point. The whole modern metal 34 string guitar tuned down to HIV+ broken Meshuggah Periphery knockoff-core of today is garbage. If I were a music producer I wouldn't want to do it either. Who wants to be stuck listening and producing crap you hate and care nothing about? And most metal producers hate fake drums. All these bands are trying to be "perfect" and it all starts to sound bland and the same
> 
> I think it's an age thing..It's not really the music they're into and kids these days are all about what they're growing up listening to.


I'd rather hear a real drummer with passion, flaws and all, than fake, "perfect" drums.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Carl Kolchak said:


> Orlly?
> 
> Because there exists, like some transcendental Platonic Idea floating serenely in the ether above, this wholly objective standard by which all recordings are deemed to sound either good or bad?
> 
> Regardless of your personal opinion on the matter home recording software is only getting better and cheaper. I mean it wasn't that long ago that Pod Farm was considered state of the art. Now imagine the technological advances that will be available to home recorders in another five years?




The equipment has gotten exponentially cheaper, and the information on how to use that equipment is much easier to digest, but I don't think that fully bridges the skill gap being discussed. 

Guitars are cheaper now, doesn't mean everyone is a better guitarist.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never thought John Syke's tone for Whitesnake '87 was anything special. I know a lot of people LOVE that sounds, which is why I bring it up when I talk about the Mesa Mark III, but to be honest it never did anything for me.  I thought Suicidal Tendencies' Lights Camera Revolution and Art of Rebellion was a better showcase of the Mark III.



I think Sykes, like EVH, makes it work because of thier abilities to play and write great pieces of music. I don't want to sound like either of them, but damn does it sound badass in context.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

lewis said:


> yeah but if all producers were like that before/during the Sabbath era to suppress the evolution of the genre, we would never had gotten the bands that they (Sneap) and their generation are biased with (Metallica, Exodus, Slayer, Megadeth etc)


Oh wah. Go have Joey Sturgis produce the shit outta that crap and get over it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never thought John Syke's tone for Whitesnake '87 was anything special. I know a lot of people LOVE that sounds, which is why I bring it up when I talk about the Mesa Mark III, but to be honest it never did anything for me.  I thought Suicidal Tendencies' Lights Camera Revolution and Art of Rebellion was a better showcase of the Mark III.


Alright, put up your dukes pal! You and I are gonna Duke it out!



(Ps, Rocky is a killer guitarist)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think Sykes, like EVH, makes it work because of thier abilities to play and write great pieces of music. I don't want to sound like either of them, but damn does it sound badass in context.


I wouldn't mind sounding like either of them, separately or mixed. Both sound great and write great stuff.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

To clarify. I have zero interest in ST without Rocky.


----------



## TedEH

There are some stellar bedroom-recordist-type albums out there, but they're the exception, not the rule. All the gear and theoretical knowledge is useless without experience and practice.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> To clarify. I have zero interest in ST without Rocky.



Muir, Rocky, and Clark was a fucking force when it came to writing badass thrash/crossover.

EDIT: Rocky recently joined Cro-Mags, and he's on their latest album.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Muir, Rocky, and Clark was a fucking force when it came to writing badass thrash/crossover.


Yeah I agree. Too bad they split up. Did Anthrax use Mark IIIs at some point? They sorta sound similar tonally to Persistence of Time.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah I agree. Too bad they split up. Did Anthrax use Mark IIIs at some point? They sorta sound similar tonally to Persistence of Time.



Spitz used Mesa Mark IIIs on Among the Living (I think, or a Mark IIC+), State of Euphoria, and Persistence of Time. I think Scott always stuck with his TC-boosted JCMs. 

You can actually find a video of them showing off their rigs on Headbangers Ball, and he's running 2 Mesas (Probably MkIIIs), Yamaha SPX90 and a Mesa Strategy 400, and a set of Marshall 412s. I guess the 2 Marks are being slaved out (Mesa Marks have a direct/slave/preamp out) into the Yamaha and ran into the Strategy, running some kind of wet-dry rig.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

MaxOfMetal said:


> The equipment has gotten exponentially cheaper, and the information on how to use that equipment is much easier to digest, but I don't think that fully bridges the skill gap being discussed.


For the majority of musicians today I should think it does, at least in terms of being able to cost-effectively capture your ideas in a digital format. And like I said, who knows where the technology will go? Who's to say that in a couple of years there won't be something like a Kemper for mixing and mastering?


----------



## Metropolis

Carl Kolchak said:


> For the majority of musicians today I should think it does, at least in terms of being able to cost-effectively capture your ideas in a digital format. And like I said, who knows where the technology will go? Who's to say that in a couple of years there won't be something like a Kemper for mixing and mastering?



Izotope Ozone 9 plugins are based on AI learning which does some sort of EQ and compression matching with target presets, or you can match to a certain reference audio. That's kind of "Kemper for mixing and mastering"  But they're just tools and you have to know how to use them properly, there is no use without experience and good pair of ears.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> What's the point in preserving "his and the drummer's work" if he's just going to quantize it all anyway? Amounts to the same.



Huh? Every drum performance is *always* quantized (unless you're Sugarfoot, maybe). Are you really implying that recording a full-length album of human performance and getting it quantized is the same as using fake drums?


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Metropolis said:


> Izotope Ozone 9 plugins are based on AI learning which does some sort of EQ and compression matching with target presets, or you can match to a certain reference audio. That's kind of "Kemper for mixing and mastering"  But they're just tools and you have to know how to use them properly, there is no use without experience and good pair of ears.


That's what I was getting at. How long is it going to be before you'll be able to use an app that lets you tone match an entire production technique without having to acquire even a shred of basic recording know how?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Carl Kolchak said:


> For the majority of musicians today I should think it does, at least in terms of being able to cost-effectively capture your ideas in a digital format. And like I said, who knows where the technology will go? Who's to say that in a couple of years there won't be something like a Kemper for mixing and mastering?



There's a difference between recording, mixing, mastering, and producing. While technology has made it more affordable, and some aspects more consistent, it's definitely something that requires both skill, talent, and experience. 

Digitizing instruments for playback isn't an album.

I've been on recording forums forever, and while getting tracks to sound better is a heck of a lot easier and cheaper, I wouldn't say the progress is proportionate to realizing fully fleshed out songs and albums. 

There's a reason good producers and engineers make real money doing this. If it could be replicated 1:1 by any Tom, Dick, or Jane with $1k they'd be long out of business.



Carl Kolchak said:


> That's what I was getting at. How long is it going to be before you'll be able to use an app that lets you tone match an entire production technique without having to acquire even a shred of basic recording know how?



I didn't know we were talking about the future. 

It's the "unpopular opinion thread" not the "unpopular opinion in the future thread".


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


> Huh? Every drum performance is *always* quantized (unless you're Sugarfoot, maybe). Are you really implying that recording a full-length album of human performance and getting it quantized is the same as using fake drums?


No, I'm saying that 90% of what makes a Stevie Wonder record or Led Zeppelin record groove is the push and pull of the drummer. Maybe you just listen to boring music if it's always quantized.

Taking a human's sense of time and groove out of a performance is just as lifeless as replacing their inconsistent hits with samples. I don't see what work your drummer put in if so much of his personality is being quantized out, but samples are somehow a step too far.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> No, I'm saying that 90% of what makes a Stevie Wonder record or Led Zeppelin record groove is the push and pull of the drummer. Maybe you just listen to boring music if it's always quantized.
> 
> Taking a human's sense of time and groove out of a performance is just as lifeless as replacing their inconsistent hits with samples. I don't see what work your drummer put in if so much of his personality is being quantized out, but samples are somehow a step too far.



So apparently you're familiar with every drum recordings of the last 40 years and know which ones are and which ones aren't quantized? 

I bet you'd be pretty disappointed if you knew the truth.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's a difference between recording, mixing, mastering, and producing. While technology has made it more affordable, and some aspects more consistent, it's definitely something that requires both skill, talent, and experience.
> 
> Digitizing instruments for playback isn't an album.


I would argue it is. If you can play it and record it then you got an album. 



> I've been on recording forums forever, and while getting tracks to sound better is a heck of a lot easier and cheaper, I wouldn't say the progress is proportionate to realizing fully fleshed out songs and albums.


Again, how isn't it? EZ-Drummer + Interface + DAW = finished track(s). The only thing holding any musician back today is his imagination. 



> There's a reason good producers and engineers make real money doing this. If it could be replicated 1:1 by any Tom, Dick, or Jane with $1k they'd be long out of business.


Decomposition is not an instantaneous process. The recording industry is itself just as dead as the "professional" book publishing and filmmaking industries are they're just slow to give up the ghost, that's all.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Now that the musician class has seized the means of production, the burgoise studio engineer is on borrowed time...


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Science_Penguin said:


> Now that the musician class has seized the means of production, the burgoise studio engineer is on borrowed time...


^This 100%.


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


> So apparently you're familiar with every drum recordings of the last 40 years and know which ones are and which ones aren't quantized?
> 
> I bet you'd be pretty disappointed if you knew the truth.


I know a lot of recordings that aren't quantized. I know a lot of modern recordings that aren't or are minimally quantized. Never said I knew everything. I know some super famous audio engineers that worked with the biggest bands in the best studios in the world.

But yeah, wasn't really a thing until the 90s, Beat Detective came out in what 2001? I suppose you had drum machines and sampling in the 80s, but that's not the same thing. Pro Tools came out in like 1990, so I can't imagine too many people were eager to start chopping and adding tape to get the drums on the grid.

The difference to me between quantized drums and programmed drums is pretty much nothing. Live drums>sample replacing>quantized. Why waste money micing a drummer to quantize when plugins are cheaper?

There's no issue with this if you're ok with admitting you're not making rock music anymore but electronic music, and there's definitely a possibility to use this artistically. But if you've ever listened to quantized versions of old music you'd know how much life it takes out.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Carl Kolchak said:


> I would have to record that with a band, which I don't have atm.








Not to be "that gurl"....but I'mma be "that gurl"...

If you haven't done it and you don't have experience doing it...and you don't have proof that you can do it, you can't really come for producers.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> Huh? Every drum performance is *always* quantized (unless you're Sugarfoot, maybe). Are you really implying that recording a full-length album of human performance and getting it quantized is the same as using fake drums?


Stop quantizing fucking drums. Period.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Not to be "that gurl"....but I'mma be "that gurl"...
> 
> If you haven't done it and you don't have experience doing it...and you don't have proof that you can do it, you can't really come for producers.



Who said I haven't done it? I was recording in 24 track studio in the mid 80s. 

Also, the sassy "person of color" gif thing is kind of lame/tired already.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> you can't really come for producers.


I mean, he can if he thinks that Bob Ezrin or Jack Douglas attractive, and particularly enjoys Welcome to My Nightmare or Toys in the Attic.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Carl Kolchak said:


> Also, the sassy "person of color" gif thing is kind of lame/tired already.


Uh oh...



Science_Penguin said:


> Now that the musician class has seized the means of production, the burgoise studio engineer is on borrowed time...


At least spell it right if you're going to attempt to sound pretentious, even if you're just being sarcastic.



Carl Kolchak said:


> Again, how isn't it? EZ-Drummer + Interface + DAW = finished track(s). The only thing holding any musician back today is his imagination.


Give me a real drummer, or take your polished up demos back to the recycle bin where they belong. I'd rather listen to Peter Criss' 70s era timing issues than listen to a boring, lifeless EZ Drummer track that is perfect to the point of being robotic. Hard pass.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Stop quantizing fucking drums. Period.



You got a better chance of making the whole world vegetarian, bub...


----------



## Seabeast2000




----------



## Spaced Out Ace

StevenC said:


> No, I'm saying that 90% of what makes a Stevie Wonder record or Led Zeppelin record groove is the push and pull of the drummer. Maybe you just listen to boring music if it's always quantized.
> 
> Taking a human's sense of time and groove out of a performance is just as lifeless as replacing their inconsistent hits with samples. I don't see what work your drummer put in if so much of his personality is being quantized out, but samples are somehow a step too far.


Bingo. Rick Beato already proved this without a shadow of a doubt, but I guess people are still going to argue the point just because they want to have a say when there really is no room for such. Real drummer or toss it in the garbage. But hey, there are people who practice and record everything to a click track, and then wonder why rock/metal is deader than roadkill.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Carl Kolchak said:


> Who said I haven't done it? I was recording in 24 track studio in the mid 80s.
> 
> Also, the sassy "person of color" gif thing is kind of lame/tired already.



Oh? Might you have some of those recordings somewhere?

Also, I am a sassy "person of color" so even if I'm not posting the gif the actions are just the same

Oh..and having studio experience and knowing how to produce at home is a lot different from just being a bedroom producer and claiming it's just as good as the top notch producers.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> You got a better chance of making the whole world vegetarian, bub...


Well, they can enjoy standing in line at the food bank or working a day job and doing music part time, then. Quantizing John Bonham and Keith Moon is the best example of how digital has made for some pretty shit music.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh? Might you have some of those recordings somewhere?
> 
> Also, I am a sassy "person of color" so even if I'm not posting the gif the actions are just the same


Not gear related, but how has POC/person (or people) of color been accepted? How is it any different from the rather obtuse, obnoxious "cOlOrEd PeOpLe" of the 60s/70s?


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never thought John Syke's tone for Whitesnake '87 was anything special. I know a lot of people LOVE that sounds, which is why I bring it up when I talk about the Mesa Mark III, but to be honest it never did anything for me.  I thought Suicidal Tendencies' Lights Camera Revolution and Art of Rebellion was a better showcase of the Mark III.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I think Sykes, like EVH, makes it work because of thier abilities to play and write great pieces of music. I don't want to sound like either of them, but damn does it sound badass in context.



Sykes’ sound is so signature on that album though. I couldn’t imagine it sounding like anything else. Like Zakk on No More Tears. Not the best sounds if you iso the tracks. But they fit in a mix. 

Another was Ty Tabor. His tone was not great by itself... but it fit with dUg perfectly. Absolutely crushing live. For anyone that has never tried, Dogman is one of the most perfectly recorded albums of all time and needs to be experienced via hifi headphones. The same with Extreme III. 

The only one I could do without was Randy‘s tone on literally everything that wasn’t acoustic... So nails-on-a-chalkboard for me. 

YMMV


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Not gear related, but how has POC/person (or people) of color been accepted? How is it any different from the rather obtuse, obnoxious "cOlOrEd PeOpLe" of the 60s/70s?



I guess it's what people are saying nowadays. Doesn't bother me..it could always be worse


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I guess it's what people are saying nowadays. Doesn't bother me..it could always be worse


Sure, but "colored people" or "coloreds" was some dense prick's idea of "progress," and "well, at least I didn't call ya uh N... or negro," like some fucking inbred neanderthal. But hey, "progress" in 2020 sure does look a lot like reshaping the bullshit in the 60s/70s from prejudice assholes while appearing sanctimonious, inclusive, and diverse when being none of those things in a lot of areas. The main difference, though, is the women are a lot less attractive, the sexual revolution aspect is... there (...?), I guess, but a lot more confusing.

This 1969 reboot sure does suck a big fat hard one. The least they could do is produce some better psychedelic music.

I guess they've found a way to meld the worst aspects of the time period from the perspective of both sides and... made it work (sorta)?


----------



## USMarine75

StevenC said:


> No, I'm saying that 90% of what makes a Stevie Wonder record or Led Zeppelin record groove is the push and pull of the drummer. Maybe you just listen to boring music if it's always quantized.
> 
> Taking a human's sense of time and groove out of a performance is just as lifeless as replacing their inconsistent hits with samples. I don't see what work your drummer put in if so much of his personality is being quantized out, but samples are somehow a step too far.





Emperoff said:


> So apparently you're familiar with every drum recordings of the last 40 years and know which ones are and which ones aren't quantized?
> 
> I bet you'd be pretty disappointed if you knew the truth.



@Emperoff you really should watch the Rick Beato videos about this if you haven’t already. As a former nu-metal producer and engineer back in the 90s/early 2000s he has a lot of insight into auto tune and quantizing. You’re right though it’s been since the 90s IIRC so we’ve got about 30 years of “perfect” music. But what @StevenC is saying is that is why music like Led Zep, The Beatles, Boston, Journey, Hendrix, Buddy Guy, Rolling Stones, etc are timeless recordings. So you’re kind of saying the same thing just about different time periods I think. Because it really is tough to find “non-perfect” music over the last 30 years.

Never mind Rick’s rants about vi-IV-I-V progressions being nearly every song made in the last 20 years lol.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well, they can enjoy standing in line at the food bank or working a day job and doing music part time,



I know it's anecdotal, but I've seen both musicians who know how to quantize, sample or sequence drums, and musicians who demand real drums recorded raw in single takes. And I can tell you which ones actually released albums, promoted themselves and got a following, and which ones are still gigging to secure funds for studio time...

Again, anecdotal, I'm not saying this is the rule, but if what you're trying to tell me is real drums = success, I'm calling bullshit.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> I know it's anecdotal, but I've seen both musicians who know how to quantize, sample or sequence drums, and musicians who demand real drums recorded raw in single takes. And I can tell you which ones actually released albums, promoted themselves and got a following, and which ones are still gigging to secure funds for studio time...
> 
> Again, anecdotal, I'm not saying this is the rule, but if what you're trying to tell me is real drums = success, I'm calling bullshit.


Since the 90s, the rock and metal genres have gone down the toilet and aside from big bands like Metallica, are scraping by. Meanwhile, bands like Van Halen and Boston have diamond certified albums. But hey, keep removing that human element from music and see how long this corpse of a genre can keep chuggin along.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Sure, but "colored people" or "coloreds" was some dense prick's idea of "progress," and "well, at least I didn't call ya uh N... or negro," like some fucking inbred neanderthal. But hey, "progress" in 2020 sure does look a lot like reshaping the bullshit in the 60s/70s from prejudice assholes while appearing sanctimonious, inclusive, and diverse when being none of those things in a lot of areas. The main difference, though, is the women are a lot less attractive, the sexual revolution aspect is... there (...?), I guess, but a lot more confusing.
> 
> This 1969 reboot sure does suck a big fat hard one. The least they could do is produce some better psychedelic music.
> 
> I guess they've found a way to meld the worst aspects of the time period from the perspective of both sides and... made it work (sorta)?



Think of 2020 as the most quantized year ever.


----------



## USMarine75

Science_Penguin said:


> I know it's anecdotal, but I've seen both musicians who know how to quantize, sample or sequence drums, and musicians who demand real drums recorded raw in single takes. And I can tell you which ones actually released albums, promoted themselves and got a following, and which ones are still gigging to secure funds for studio time...
> 
> Again, anecdotal, I'm not saying this is the rule, but if what you're trying to tell me is real drums = success, I'm calling bullshit.



I don’t think it has to do with success. Katy Perry has sold more albums than just about any modern rock or metal band and her music is auto tuned and quantized and uses a lot of digital instruments. Nothing wrong with that. But it is what it is.

It’s more about why rock and metal lost its edge which was part of its selling point. It was raw, unpolished, unapologetic. The Misfits are off time and out of tune and have the shittiest mix possible. And their albums are glorious and still sell today. There’s something about listening to something like Boston where Scholz is absolutely killing it on guitar and Delp is wailing on vocals and you know it’s not auto tuned and edited to fuck.

Eddie famously hits a wrong note (well... it serves as a passing tone lol) but they kept that in the final product. That would have been snipped and edited in post if it was today. 

I still really enjoy Berried Alive, but in my heart I believe his music is fake as hell. So he’s never going to be in the same universe as Jason Becker, Marty Friedman, Nick Johnston, etc.

ymmv


----------



## StevenC

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Bingo. Rick Beato already proved this without a shadow of a doubt, but I guess people are still going to argue the point just because they want to have a say when there really is no room for such. Real drummer or toss it in the garbage. But hey, there are people who practice and record everything to a click track, and then wonder why rock/metal is deader than roadkill.


Eh, I like EDM and there are things that can be programmed but not played, but for regular rock and metal drumming there's not a lot of circumstances where programming drums is required. I don't even mind playing to a click, because that'll include some amount of fluctuation still. Some music is just maybe too complicated to do in one take in a room. An isolated drummer could be seen as a click track with lots of changes.


Spaced Out Ace said:


> Not gear related, but how has POC/person (or people) of color been accepted? How is it any different from the rather obtuse, obnoxious "cOlOrEd PeOpLe" of the 60s/70s?


I think the point is that "colored person" sounds denigrating. It means non-white people, has an implication that white people are normal and everyone else is "different".

"Person of color" puts the person part first and therefore isn't so dehumanising. But also the usage is completely different. POC is used mostly to refer to a group whereas you might have said "the restroom is just past that colored fella" if you were in an integrated bar. Once again the point is to say "non-white" without putting white people at the centre of the world.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Seabeast2000 said:


> Think of 2020 as the most quantized year ever.


No wonder it sucks.



StevenC said:


> Eh, I like EDM and there are things that can be programmed but not played, but for regular rock and metal drumming there's not a lot of circumstances where programming drums is required. I don't even mind playing to a click, because that'll include some amount of fluctuation still. Some music is just maybe too complicated to do in one take in a room. An isolated drummer could be seen as a click track with lots of changes.



Electronic music is a bit different than something that's supposed to have been played by humans, and thus have a human element, no? A click is just a guide, but if you don't allow your music to flow because "this part diverts from the click," then the music is going to sound duller.



StevenC said:


> I think the point is that "colored person" sounds denigrating. It means non-white people, has an implication that white people are normal and everyone else is "different".
> 
> "Person of color" puts the person part first and therefore isn't so dehumanising. But also the usage is completely different. POC is used mostly to refer to a group whereas you might have said "the restroom is just past that colored fella" if you were in an integrated bar. Once again the point is to say "non-white" without putting white people at the centre of the world.


Mental gymnastics. That's all that was. You can still say, "The gym is past that big tall POC dude." Both say non-white, both act as a means to box a bunch of people together with little care for their individuality.


----------



## Emperoff

Man if I knew talking about quantizing drums would trigger that much people I've had done it way sooner


----------



## sirbuh

USMarine75 said:


> The only one I could do without was Randy‘s tone on literally everything that wasn’t acoustic... So nails-on-a-chalkboard for me.
> 
> YMMV



David Brewster's "Late Night Lessons" Sykes video is ace and turned me on to him.

Agreed, RR's tone really got in the way of his riffs (imho).


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


> Man if I knew talking about quantizing drums would trigger that much people I've had done it way sooner


No, I just said I was ok with triggering!


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Give me a real drummer, or take your polished up demos back to the recycle bin where they belong. I'd rather listen to Peter Criss' 70s era timing issues than listen to a boring, lifeless EZ Drummer track that is perfect to the point of being robotic. Hard pass.


I'm more into Bill Ward myself, but yeah real drums are always a huge plus, assuming of course you can find one and have a space to practice/record in. 

As for EZ-Drummer, I wish they had some dedicated doom/sludge. It would make my life easier.


----------



## StevenC

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Mental gymnastics. That's all that was. You can still say, "The gym is past that big tall POC dude." Both say non-white, both act as a means to box a bunch of people together with little care for their individuality.


Yes, to some extent it's all mental gymnastics. For example it's ok to call someone Asian but not African and it's ok to call someone black but not yellow. The reasoning for that is probably to do with more black people being forced out of Africa in slavery than compared to Asians, and losing so much cultural identity in the process.

The point being "I'm not a colored, I'm a person" really places importance on the order of the words. But I'm a white European so there's a lot of room for error.


----------



## lewis

the real drum argument is elitist.

Literally its "Im richer than you and therefore my version of whats the best, will be drastically different from yours - and instead of accepting that, I would rather just mock you poorer musicians and savage your projects (without even listening to them) if they contain Midi drums and self recorded music"

good for you if you can afford hitting a real studio, and get a proper mic'd up Drum kit, mixed and mastered by the industry pros

not everyone can, ergo they rely on Midi instruments.

why cant everyone live and let live?
Savaging Midi VSTs is the same as Tube amp vs Modeller

EDIT: To add, one time I played a show with backing track MIDI drums and it took 3 songs in before people who i consider contacts in the industry, even noticed.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

sirbuh said:


> David Brewster's "Late Night Lessons" Sykes video is ace and turned me on to him.
> 
> Agreed, RR's tone really got in the way of his riffs (imho).


Which one? Please link. (I ask because Brewster tends to do more than one video on some guitarists). I love his videos.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Carl Kolchak said:


> I'm more into Bill Ward myself, but yeah real drums are always a huge plus, assuming of course you can find one and have a space to practice/record in.
> 
> As for EZ-Drummer, I wish they had some dedicated doom/sludge. It would make my life easier.


Bill Ward is also great. Eric Carr was as well. My point was just that a real drummer can't be beat.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Since the 90s, the rock and metal genres have gone down the toilet and aside from big bands like Metallica, are scraping by. Meanwhile, bands like Van Halen and Boston have diamond certified albums. But hey, keep removing that human element from music and see how long this corpse of a genre can keep chuggin along.



I still don't see how you connect that to success.

You saying a band with the tagline "We did this all in one take, no computer BS. Real drummer included." would dominate if only some brave souls would just get out there and do it?

Cause, for my money, I'd just think they were assholes, and if their music sucked anyway I wouldn't care how unquantized it was.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

lewis said:


> the real drum argument is elitist.
> 
> Literally its "Im richer than you and therefore my version of whats the best, will be drastically different from yours - and instead of accepting that, I would rather just mock you poorer musicians and savage your projects (without even listening to them) if they contain Midi drums and self recorded music"
> 
> good for you if you can afford hitting a real studio, and get a proper mic'd up Drum kit, mixed and mastered by the industry pros
> 
> not everyone can, ergo they rely on Midi instruments.
> 
> why cant everyone live and let live?
> Savaging Midi VSTs is the same as Tube amp vs Modeller
> 
> EDIT: To add, one time I played a show with backing track MIDI drums and it took 3 songs in before people who i consider contacts in the industry, even noticed.



Whatever gets the job done. I actually prefer "faking" the drums..then again I do industrial music so there's that. But I like the idea of making drum tones and putting multiple drum sets in one song, etc. All of that is a lot quicker and easier when you aren't using a real drummer.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

StevenC said:


> Yes, to some extent it's all mental gymnastics. For example it's ok to call someone Asian but not African and it's ok to call someone black but not yellow. The reasoning for that is probably to do with more black people being forced out of Africa in slavery than compared to Asians, and losing so much cultural identity in the process.
> 
> The point being "I'm not a colored, I'm a person" really places importance on the order of the words. But I'm a white European so there's a lot of room for error.


I had a thing my English teacher made us do. It was for the "Diversity Series" at college, and he was an organizer or something for it. Typically it was something you went to if you wanted to. Anyways, we did a few of these while I was in his class, and one in particular was about pronouns. We had to say what our "preferred pronouns were," like someone's Twitter bio, and I said, "My preferred pronouns are [first name]/[last name]." They didn't know how to react to that, and said, "Uh, mind explaining why?" "Because it is my name. I think an obsession with a pronoun can, if left to do so, be bad on a person's mental state. For instance, I have long hair, and have had plenty of people, particularly in restaurants, ask me, 'what would you ladies like this evening? Oh, and ladies and sir, my apologies.' I usually just laugh it off. If someone isn't intending to be an asshole about it, just politely correct them. If they continue to do so, then fine, take them to task for it, but people make mistakes." Obviously some aren't as easy going as me, such as the "IT'S MAAAM!" person, but I just shrug it off.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

lewis said:


> the real drum argument is elitist.
> 
> Literally its "Im richer than you and therefore my version of whats the best, will be drastically different from yours - and instead of accepting that, I would rather just mock you poorer musicians and savage your projects (without even listening to them) if they contain Midi drums and self recorded music"
> 
> good for you if you can afford hitting a real studio, and get a proper mic'd up Drum kit, mixed and mastered by the industry pros
> 
> not everyone can, ergo they rely on Midi instruments.
> 
> why cant everyone live and let live?
> Savaging Midi VSTs is the same as Tube amp vs Modeller
> 
> EDIT: To add, one time I played a show with backing track MIDI drums and it took 3 songs in before people who i consider contacts in the industry, even noticed.


You lost me with the first line.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Whatever gets the job done. I actually prefer "faking" the drums..then again I do industrial music so there's that. But I like the idea of making drum tones and putting multiple drum sets in one song, etc. All of that is a lot quicker and easier when you aren't using a real drummer.


Well, Industrial is part electronic, is it not? At least that is my impression of the genre, though I'm not really a fan of it, so my exposure isn't that vast.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> I still don't see how you connect that to success.
> 
> You saying a band with the tagline "We did this all in one take, no computer BS. Real drummer included." would dominate if only some brave souls would just get out there and do it?
> 
> Cause, for my money, I'd just think they were assholes, and if their music sucked anyway I wouldn't care how unquantized it was.


Even back in the day, they weren't doing it in one take, so you can drop that. They would often composite takes together.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well, Industrial is part electronic, is it not? At least that is my impression of the genre, though I'm not really a fan of it, so my exposure isn't that vast.


Yeah although I do more industrial rock/metal type stuff and a real drummer could be used. Since I don't use a real drummer I make all sorts of loops and unrealistic drum tones because that's the fun of it. I wouldn't really want to be stuck with real drums and now I'm so far into it that having a real drummer would be a hassle. Even now an electronic kit is used sometimes because I couldn't get through a set with just an acoustic one


----------



## StevenC

lewis said:


> the real drum argument is elitist.
> 
> Literally its "Im richer than you and therefore my version of whats the best, will be drastically different from yours - and instead of accepting that, I would rather just mock you poorer musicians and savage your projects (without even listening to them) if they contain Midi drums and self recorded music"
> 
> good for you if you can afford hitting a real studio, and get a proper mic'd up Drum kit, mixed and mastered by the industry pros
> 
> not everyone can, ergo they rely on Midi instruments.
> 
> why cant everyone live and let live?
> Savaging Midi VSTs is the same as Tube amp vs Modeller
> 
> EDIT: To add, one time I played a show with backing track MIDI drums and it took 3 songs in before people who i consider contacts in the industry, even noticed.


You're missing the point. It's not about purity and it's not about programmed drums being bad. It's about the natural push and pull that comes from a human playing music and the difference between keeping time well and having good feel. It's very hard to program that groove and it adds a huge element to music that is meant to be played live by a group of people. 

It's come around the other way to an extent with Dilla influences to make programmed beats have an unquantized feel, but that has a different sound entirely. You should go and listen to the isolated drums from Superstition if you want to know what people are actually talking about.

This is comparable to modelling in the same way that people who defend modelling don't understand the criticism. Make music whatever way you want but real drums have something very noticeable that quantizing removes, and real amps have something that is most noticeable to the person playing which gets lost on a recording. But there both about feel.



Science_Penguin said:


> I still don't see how you connect that to success.
> 
> You saying a band with the tagline "We did this all in one take, no computer BS. Real drummer included." would dominate if only some brave souls would just get out there and do it?
> 
> Cause, for my money, I'd just think they were assholes, and if their music sucked anyway I wouldn't care how unquantized it was.



You're also missing the point. He's not talking about success in the metal niche, but talking about wider success and how the decline of rock and metal in popular music has tracked very closely with the rise of digital manipulation like auto-tune and quantizing. Rock music was at its most popular when it was people getting in a room and playing together resulting in an edge. When that edge was smoothed with plugins it lost a lot of appeal.


----------



## TedEH

lewis said:


> the real drum argument is elitist.
> 
> Literally its "Im richer than you and therefore my version of whats the best, will be drastically different from yours - and instead of accepting that, I would rather just mock you poorer musicians and savage your projects (without even listening to them) if they contain Midi drums and self recorded music"


I don't think that's the case at all. I'm 100% in the prefer-real-performances camp, but it's a preference. It's an aesthetic. Neither is objectively better or "correct". Some programmed drums sound great and accomplish what they set out to do, some don't. At the same time, drum recording is quite difficult, time consuming, and expensive, and a lot of real drum recordings sound like garbage too.

Given the choice, a lot of people prefer to hear a performance rather than just the composition. But there's nothing inherently wrong with producing music in any particular way.


----------



## Emperoff




----------



## rokket2005

I use Slate Drums cause dealing with other people is fucking garbage. Want proof? Look at the state of this thread.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

rokket2005 said:


> I use Slate Drums cause dealing with other people is fucking garbage. Want proof? Look at the state of this thread.


Well. You sound like a delight to work with


----------



## TedEH

Alternate option -> Learn every instrument.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> Alternate option -> Learn every instrument.


 It worked for Prince


----------



## TedEH

It works for me too.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> It works for me too.


Same. Well...except for drums. I don't really have the space but I'd love to get a set. But I play everything else so, there's that.


----------



## TedEH

inb4 we're "shaming" people who only play one instrument.

Make music the way you want to make music. It's just entertainment folks.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Well. You sound like a delight to work with


Agreed.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


> Sykes’ sound is so signature on that album though. I couldn’t imagine it sounding like anything else. Like Zakk on No More Tears. Not the best sounds if you iso the tracks. But they fit in a mix.
> 
> Another was Ty Tabor. His tone was not great by itself... but it fit with dUg perfectly. Absolutely crushing live. For anyone that has never tried, Dogman is one of the most perfectly recorded albums of all time and needs to be experienced via hifi headphones. The same with Extreme III.
> 
> The only one I could do without was Randy‘s tone on literally everything that wasn’t acoustic... So nails-on-a-chalkboard for me.
> 
> YMMV



I actually like all those tones. Eddie's variac'd Plexi, Ty's L5/Recto tones, Zakk's Lee Jackson or Marshall rigs (before he started using EVM speakers) Nuno's... anything he uses... I just really can't get into Syke's tones on most recordings. It wasn't until the 2nd Blue Murder album when I started really digging his tone. That and when he switched back to his modded 2204s. 

And yep, Rhoad's tone was always bad. I had someone argue with me that it was groundbreaking because it was the first use of a modern-sounding distortion and... Nah, I still don't think so.  I'm also not a fan of how he double-tracked his solos.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I actually like all those tones. Eddie's variac'd Plexi, Ty's L5/Recto tones, Zakk's Lee Jackson or Marshall rigs (before he started using EVM speakers) Nuno's... anything he uses... I just really can't get into Syke's tones on most recordings. It wasn't until the 2nd Blue Murder album when I started really digging his tone. That and when he switched back to his modded 2204s.
> 
> And yep, Rhoad's tone was always bad. I had someone argue with me that it was groundbreaking because it was the first use of a modern-sounding distortion and... Nah, I still don't think so.  I'm also not a fan of how he double-tracked his solos.


Zakk, Sykes, Eddie, Ty, Nuno, and Rocky all have great tones. Anthrax too. All of them likely relied quite a bit on their engineer, producer, and mixer to get the best out of what they had.


----------



## prlgmnr

Saying "it's good to do X" isn't the same as saying "you are garbage trash if you can't afford to do X".

Arguably the most metal thing of all is just fucking getting by on what you've got.

If the songs are strong almost any production quirk can be forgiven, if the songs are weak no one gives a fuck how good the drums sound.


----------



## USMarine75

prlgmnr said:


> Saying "it's good to do X" isn't the same as saying "you are garbage trash if you can't afford to do X".
> 
> Arguably the most metal thing of all is just fucking getting by on what you've got.
> 
> If the songs are strong almost any production quirk can be forgiven, if the songs are weak no one gives a fuck how good the drums sound.



Exactly. Cacophany didnt have the best production quality (or singer), but that doesnt stop me from listening because it's so good. But if the songs were only meh then yeah the production would scare me away.

But I think there's diminishing returns here... there's a point where the production is so bad I just cant listen even if the songs are good. Nothing comes to mind but I know I've been in that position before.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I actually like all those tones. Eddie's variac'd Plexi, Ty's L5/Recto tones, Zakk's Lee Jackson or Marshall rigs (before he started using EVM speakers) Nuno's... anything he uses... I just really can't get into Syke's tones on most recordings. It wasn't until the 2nd Blue Murder album when I started really digging his tone. That and when he switched back to his modded 2204s.
> 
> And yep, Rhoad's tone was always bad. I had someone argue with me that it was groundbreaking because it was the first use of a modern-sounding distortion and... Nah, I still don't think so.  I'm also not a fan of how he double-tracked his solos.



That's why I'll always stand by the fact that tone is subjective.

I remember how many people thought Dimebag had the best ("brutal") tone ever, but now I see a lot of hate. For anyone that doesnt remember or isnt old enough, read articles from GW and such talking about his tone and playing back then.

And I remember the debates over who was the best guitarist in the 80s and it was EVH or Randy. And I was team EVH (duh). And I remember saying I didn't like Randy's icepick tone and there were people that thought I was crazy.

So I'd say the two factors are subjectivity and how well does it age? Kiss was popular in the late 70s and 80s and they and I'm sure they could still pack stadiums with 40+ year olds, but now their music sounds far beyond dumb as fuck, compared to say Led Zep or VH which aged much better IMO.


----------



## lewis

prlgmnr said:


> Saying "it's good to do X" isn't the same as saying "you are garbage trash if you can't afford to do X".
> 
> Arguably the most metal thing of all is just fucking getting by on what you've got.
> 
> If the songs are strong almost any production quirk can be forgiven, if the songs are weak no one gives a fuck how good the drums sound.


finally!
Some proper sense.


----------



## lewis

double


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

This just popped up. How apropos.....


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

budda said:


> I have a hunch you've never had a good studio experience with a producer .



It's been reiterated a few times already, but to once again beat the chunks of what used to be a dead horse:

Producer =/= Engineer. 

There's much more to being a producer than just learning how to operate a mixing console or a DAW. Certainly beyond just learning how to mic a kit or amp. If anything it's like being a coach to a sports team. 

Telling a band or artist what works and what doesn't. Be it if the songwriting needs work, or telling a musician when he's reached his limits after a long arduous day of 150 takes. There's also the art of trying to pull the best performance out of a musician. Different methods like Jim Soctt's PLYRZ diet to keep everyone healthy and focused, Ross Robinson's more extreme approach to get some pure carnal takes, Sylvia Massy's light some candles to add atmosphere to tracking vocals, Bob Ezrin running a boot camp... Unless you're dead set on having that cold, programmed, lots of punch in sound, performance always trumps production, and a good producer understands that. 

Telling a band an outside view that's often rare if non existent to the bedroom DIY approach. Unless the artist has a solid fully realized vision (most often think they do), having a second opinion from a good producer is valuable to making your music better. The good DIY producers are often the ones that have learned the ropes I mentioned above..


----------



## TedEH

Was only a matter of time before Glen made an appearance here. He is the embodiment of threads like these.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> Was only a matter of time before Glen made an appearance here. He is the embodiment of threads like these.



It just had to be done. You know I had to do it to'em


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Bloody_Inferno said:


> It's been reiterated a few times already, but to once again beat the chunks of what used to be a dead horse:
> 
> Producer =/= Engineer.
> 
> There's much more to being a producer than just learning how to operate a mixing console or a DAW. Certainly beyond just learning how to mic a kit or amp. If anything it's like being a coach to a sports team.
> 
> Telling a band or artist what works and what doesn't. Be it if the songwriting needs work, or telling a musician when he's reached his limits after a long arduous day of 150 takes. There's also the art of trying to pull the best performance out of a musician. Different methods like Jim Soctt's PLYRZ diet to keep everyone healthy and focused, Ross Robinson's more extreme approach to get some pure carnal takes, Sylvia Massy's light some candles to add atmosphere to tracking vocals, Bob Ezrin running a boot camp... Unless you're dead set on having that cold, programmed, lots of punch in sound, performance always trumps production, and a good producer understands that.
> 
> Telling a band an outside view that's often rare if non existent to the bedroom DIY approach. Unless the artist has a solid fully realized vision (most often think they do), having a second opinion from a good producer is valuable to making your music better. The good DIY producers are often the ones that have learned the ropes I mentioned above..


 Nail on the goddamn head.

Hell I know exactly what I want most of the time and I STILL would love to have a producer help tighten it up.


----------



## Emperoff

Man, my lackluster drummer surely created a hot topic 

He's a very nice guy, though. I promise!


----------



## GunpointMetal

Impressed it only took like 29 pages before half of you went full boomer and started comparing shit like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin to modern metal as if it was even sort of relevant. If you’re playing sloppy drunk bar rock, no need to quantize your drums, or record to a click, and you can knock out an entire album of drum tracks “at the studio” in an afternoon. It’s not gonna make the music better, or relevant in any way. 
Unpopular opinion: Comparing music that was produced last year in an entirely different genre than some favorite of yours from 30 years ago makes you look stupid and dated and discredits all further opinions on every topic in this scope. Get you LP and go bang out some AcDc on your vintage Marshall full stack and stay the fuck away from modern music.


----------



## GunpointMetal

rokket2005 said:


> I use Slate Drums cause dealing with other people is fucking garbage. Want proof? Look at the state of this thread.


 +1 on that. I have two bands with other people and even GREAT people are a pain to work with a lot of the time. Things have to be done a certain way to appease egos, things have to be scheduled around people’s unpredictable lives/budgets/abilities, everyone’s opinions have to be taken into consideration, and a lot of times the “human element” is a lot more than just the “feel” that gets recorded. When the guys I play with now don’t wanna do it anymore I’ll gladly produce my own music with programmed drums and midi bass and tons of “fixing” because I’m making music for me and the 9 other people who wanna hear it, not for some “we did it all live in one take and kept some clams because that’s FUCKING ROCK DUDE” award because THERE’S NO SUCH THING.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Half of Type O Negatives discography is done with programmed drums. If it works for them it works for me.


----------



## vilk

I guess Quarthon and Varg were just so filthy rich and that's why they didn't need to program pathetic robo drums like paupers.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This just popped up. How apropos.....



I love how much shit he talks and yet half the time his tones sound shit.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

GunpointMetal said:


> Impressed it only took like 29 pages before half of you went full boomer and started comparing shit like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin to modern metal as if it was even sort of relevant. If you’re playing sloppy drunk bar rock, no need to quantize your drums, or record to a click, and you can knock out an entire album of drum tracks “at the studio” in an afternoon. It’s not gonna make the music better, or relevant in any way.
> Unpopular opinion: Comparing music that was produced last year in an entirely different genre than some favorite of yours from 30 years ago makes you look stupid and dated and discredits all further opinions on every topic in this scope. Get you LP and go bang out some AcDc on your vintage Marshall full stack and stay the fuck away from modern music.


I stopped reading when you said boomer.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I love how much shit he talks and yet half the time his tones sound shit.


 Glenn’s videos are funny, but yeah, not the guy I want recording advice from. His stuff sounds exactly like the stuff the permed dude with the huge digital recorder in his manshack was doing for local bands in the early 2000s.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I stopped reading when you said boomer.


 Sounds pretty boomer to me.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

GunpointMetal said:


> Sounds pretty boomer to me.


Reductionist bullshit is a waste of time reading.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I love how much shit he talks and yet half the time his tones sound shit.



The gag is that I don't think I've ever heard anything from him I even like....but even a stopped clock is right twice a day


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

GunpointMetal said:


> Glenn’s videos are funny, but yeah, not the guy I want recording advice from. His stuff sounds exactly like the stuff the permed dude with the huge digital recorder in his manshack was doing for local bands in the early 2000s.


I prefer Paulie.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The gag is that I don't think I've ever heard anything from him I even like....but even a stopped clock is right twice a day


I've watched a few of his vids, his schtick wore thin quick, and have not bothered with anything since.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Reductionist bullshit is a waste of time reading.


You mean stuff like “quAnTizE bAd” and “tHiS hAs beTtER FEAL”?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

GunpointMetal said:


> You mean stuff like “quAnTizE bAd” and “tHiS hAs beTtER FEAL”?


Yeah, this is pointless. Enjoy your lifeless bullshit.


----------



## Metropolis

Context matters more than recording techniques or gear it's made. If it sounds good, then it's good. And everyone don't have similar skills, resources or interests in doing things. People who whine about quantizing or drum samples are probably listening recordings made with such techniques on daily basis. Sometimes when I listen to some older recordings before the time of computers I just feel that it sounds bad because playing is not exactly on time and pitch of instruments are what they are... it really depends. I'm so used to certain level perfection that it's a standard now.

Might not be unpopular opinion, but with guitar tones the cab and mic is almost 50% of your sound. Playing technique and skills aside because it's not gear.


----------



## StevenC

GunpointMetal said:


> You mean stuff like “quAnTizE bAd” and “tHiS hAs beTtER FEAL”?


If that's what you took away from the last few pages then I don't think you're in any position to criticise anybody based on age.


----------



## GunpointMetal

StevenC said:


> If that's what you took away from the last few pages then I don't think you're in any position to criticise anybody based on age.


 What I take away from these conversations is that people preach preference like it’s “better” in some quantified way, mostly because it’s old, or people think it has some magical intangible quality because it was done earlier in the progress of technology/idealogy/practice and tons of musicians cut themselves off at a certain point and decide “this is best things were ever and will ever be done” but they forget to add the “because I like it this way” and then go on and on and on about how things used to/should be done. Guitarists especially are so tied to antiquated views that they preach as fact it’s hilarious to me.


----------



## StevenC

GunpointMetal said:


> What I take away from these conversations is that people preach preference like it’s “better” in some quantified way, mostly because it’s old, or people think it has some magical intangible quality because it was done earlier in the progress of technology/idealogy/practice and tons of musicians cut themselves off at a certain point and decide “this is best things were ever and will ever be done” but they forget to add the “because I like it this way” and then go on and on and on about how things used to/should be done. Guitarists especially are so tied to antiquated views that they preach as fact it’s hilarious to me.


A yes would have sufficed.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

StevenC said:


> A yes would have sufficed.



Shade!


----------



## MASS DEFECT

What part of "unpopular opinion" did you not understand? It has been a fun thread, until someone cries.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Getting back on track...

When it comes to metal, nothing even matters anymore in terms of tube vs solid state, active vs passive, etc. Everything is a tidal wave of distortion anyways and no one can tell the difference besides the guitarist themselves.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The RGA is overrated as shit and there's cooler looking archtop Superstrats.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

^This reminds me.

Superstrats are for boring people with no imagination


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The RGA is overrated as shit and there's cooler looking archtop Superstrats.



The RGA's appeal is overrated. No one wants/buys them unless they're practically free, which is why most offerings are cheaper/token. They wouldn't be on the radar if it wasn't for a perfect storm of cheap unwanted guitars on the market when certain artists started using them. The popularity was a fluke.


----------



## oneblackened

Engls are, as a whole, oversaturated and overcompressed. They're also built like Peaveys but cost twice to three times as much in the US. People who like them tend to pick like small children.


----------



## TedEH

GunpointMetal said:


> but they forget to add the “because I like it this way”


The "because I like it this way" is implicit, given the title of the thread.


----------



## Science_Penguin

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The RGA is overrated as shit and there's cooler looking archtop Superstrats.



This is an unpopular opinion?

I kinda thought everyone knew that RGA's were just Ibanez throwing their archtop hats in the ring and we all just kind of patted them on the head, told them "good effort," and still choose Horizons.


----------



## ATRguitar91

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ^This reminds me.
> 
> Superstrats are for boring people with no imagination


In terms of looks I don't think this is too spicy of a take, but I've yet to find a shape that is as comfortable to play. SG shape maybe if there's no neck dive.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ATRguitar91 said:


> In terms of looks I don't think this is too spicy of a take, but I've yet to find a shape that is as comfortable to play. SG shape maybe if there's no neck dive.



I don't mind strats as much as I used to even though I still find them bland. I was just trying to get the thread back on track since it derailed into butthurt hour.


----------



## Cynicanal

Here's my unpopular opinion: I don't find typical strats/superstrats comfortable to play. The forearm-carve always feels weird to me, and there's just too much wood in that area near the bridge. Vs and Explorers are so much more comfy.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Cynicanal said:


> Here's my unpopular opinion: I don't find typical strats/superstrats comfortable to play. The forearm-carve always feels weird to me, and there's just too much wood in that area near the bridge. Vs and Explorers are so much more comfy.



Person 1: But Vs are so uncomfortable when you play sitting down.
Person 2: You never play Vs sitting down!


----------



## c7spheres

Science_Penguin said:


> This is an unpopular opinion?
> 
> I kinda thought everyone knew that RGA's were just Ibanez throwing their archtop hats in the ring and we all just kind of patted them on the head, told them "good effort," and still choose Horizons.



- Ibanez should get an award for "Most Wasted Potential" in the electric guitar market.
- They just won't build it!
- My animosity grows for them every year. Mostly because of the hundreds of other ridiculous builds they've made without filling a basic void, yet they're happy to do it for their endorsers. 




Cynicanal said:


> ...... The forearm-carve always feels weird to me,.....



Yep, forearm carves are uncomfortable and make playing a lot more effort.


----------



## jarledge

i could get why people don't like ENGLs tone wise. I just picked up a fireball and blackmore. The blackmore started to sound like garbage so i decided to pull it a part and take a look at what was going on. Honestly seriously underwhelmed by the build quality. Thinner boards then I was expecting, cheaper pots than I was expecting, and just overall not up to what i though it would be given their prices new. I got a sweet deal on both heads, and a standard cab. The standard 4x12 cab is beefy, I wanted to look at the speakers and maybe swap 2 out. The sides are particle board. The baffle is multi-layer ply wood but again overall disappointed it isn't built better given how much it would have been had i bought it new. 

I like the heads and the cab, I am just really happy that i didn't buy them new. 




oneblackened said:


> Engls are, as a whole, oversaturated and overcompressed. They're also built like Peaveys but cost twice to three times as much in the US. People who like them tend to pick like small children.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MASS DEFECT said:


> Person 1: But Vs are so uncomfortable when you play sitting down.
> Person 2: You never play Vs sitting down!


Anyone who says playing them sitting down is uncomfortable is the same level of dumb as the person who puts the strap buttons in stupid spots, resulting in neck dive.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

jarledge said:


> i could get why people don't like ENGLs tone wise. I just picked up a fireball and blackmore. The blackmore started to sound like garbage so i decided to pull it a part and take a look at what was going on. Honestly seriously underwhelmed by the build quality. Thinner boards then I was expecting, cheaper pots than I was expecting, and just overall not up to what i though it would be given their prices new. I got a sweet deal on both heads, and a standard cab. The standard 4x12 cab is beefy, I wanted to look at the speakers and maybe swap 2 out. The sides are particle board. The baffle is multi-layer ply wood but again overall disappointed it isn't built better given how much it would have been had i bought it new.
> 
> I like the heads and the cab, I am just really happy that i didn't buy them new.


AND you bought them in their country of origin. Imagine if you had to pay thousands more because of import, duty fees, etc. There was a thread years back about someone needing to fix something and the traces basically lifted up and made the whole process a pain in the ass. I don't think ENGLs are very well built. They are the metal amp equivalent of the saying "All hat and no cattle." I've not heard similar complaints about fellow German amp brand, Diezel.


----------



## WarMachine

No context to add whatsoever, just wanted to stop by and say how much fun i've had reading this thread


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

WarMachine said:


> No context to add whatsoever, just wanted to stop by and say how much fun i've had reading this thread


Make sure you sign the guest book. If you don't, @Randy will disable your account.


----------



## oneblackened

Spaced Out Ace said:


> AND you bought them in their country of origin. Imagine if you had to pay thousands more because of import, duty fees, etc. There was a thread years back about someone needing to fix something and the traces basically lifted up and made the whole process a pain in the ass. I don't think ENGLs are very well built. They are the metal amp equivalent of the saying "All hat and no cattle." I've not heard similar complaints about fellow German amp brand, Diezel.


All of this is accurate. I've worked on Engls and they're built legitimately like cheap Peaveys. PCB mounted sockets and pots, and the cheapest sockets and potsyou can buy (cheapo Chinese ceramics and super flimsy low grade Alps pots). Thin, not through plated boards. Mediocre components overall. The transformers are positively dinky for the wattage too. For the amount they cost it's insane, especially considering how KSRs, Revvs, etc are at the same price point. 

Diezels are built excellently, but they're also considerably more expensive. For $4000, I would _hope_ a VH4 was built well.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

oneblackened said:


> All of this is accurate. I've worked on Engls and they're built legitimately like cheap Peaveys. PCB mounted sockets and pots, and the cheapest sockets and potsyou can buy (cheapo Chinese ceramics and super flimsy low grade Alps pots). Thin, not through plated boards. Mediocre components overall. The transformers are positively dinky for the wattage too. For the amount they cost it's insane, especially considering how KSRs, Revvs, etc are at the same price point.
> 
> Diezels are built excellently, but they're also considerably more expensive. For $4000, I would _hope_ a VH4 was built well.


I'd rather have a less compressed KSR. I think they are pretty compressed (at least the Ceres I had was). If I could get a KSR that was less compressed, and I had the cash to do so, I'd buy one. ENGLs just sound like junk to me.


----------



## jarledge

oneblackened said:


> All of this is accurate. I've worked on Engls and they're built legitimately like cheap Peaveys. PCB mounted sockets and pots, and the cheapest sockets and potsyou can buy (cheapo Chinese ceramics and super flimsy low grade Alps pots). Thin, not through plated boards. Mediocre components overall. The transformers are positively dinky for the wattage too. For the amount they cost it's insane, especially considering how KSRs, Revvs, etc are at the same price point.
> 
> Diezels are built excellently, but they're also considerably more expensive. For $4000, I would _hope_ a VH4 was built well.



i am going to try and pick up a Diezel before i leave. i have played a couple stateside and loved them. they are still a little pricey here not nowhere near what they are stateside.


----------



## oneblackened

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'd rather have a less compressed KSR. I think they are pretty compressed (at least the Ceres I had was). If I could get a KSR that was less compressed, and I had the cash to do so, I'd buy one. ENGLs just sound like junk to me.


The Ares/Orthos/Juno are significantly less compressed than the Colossus/Artemis/Gemini/Ceres, IME.


----------



## efiltsohg

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The RGA is overrated as shit and there's cooler looking archtop Superstrats.



thin u is also a way better neck profile than any ibanez


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Anyone who says playing them sitting down is uncomfortable is the same level of dumb as the person who puts the strap buttons in stupid spots, resulting in neck dive.



This. Who the fuck has problems playing a V sitting down? I imagine these are the same people the phrase "Instructions unclear, dick caught in ceiling fan" is about.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Cynicanal said:


> Here's my unpopular opinion: I don't find typical strats/superstrats comfortable to play. The forearm-carve always feels weird to me, and there's just too much wood in that area near the bridge. Vs and Explorers are so much more comfy.



They are weirdly ergonomic. I had a Warrior way back when, and was surprised how much I liked having the back fin as an armrest.


----------



## Cynicanal

The above Engl discussion brings to mind another "unpopular opinion" I hold:

The Diezel VH4 is a dull and uninspiring amp. It doesn't even dream of sounding as good as any number of amps that are 1/4th the price or less. It's like someone took a Marshall, chopped its balls off, and then gave it a bunch of needless boominess in the low end. Why do people covet these so much?


----------



## Emperoff

I love how people bash ENGL based on their price/quality ratio totally forgetting they are twice the price in the US than Europe. Never gets old.


The most expensive ENGLs you can buy in Europe are around 2300€, and they start around 1000€. Diezels start at 2000€ up to 3300€ (and they used to be way more expensive). Comparing them just because they're both German brands is just silly. They are not in the same price ranges and sound nothing alike.

They are built as Peaveys because they are in the same price range as Peaveys. A likewise comparison would be indeed comparing Peavey and Mesa Boogie just because they're american.


----------



## oneblackened

Cynicanal said:


> The above Engl discussion brings to mind another "unpopular opinion" I hold:
> 
> The Diezel VH4 is a dull and uninspiring amp. It doesn't even dream of sounding as good as any number of amps that are 1/4th the price or less. It's like someone took a Marshall, chopped its balls off, and then gave it a bunch of needless boominess in the low end. Why do people covet these so much?


Not a damn clue. I feel more or less the same way... None of the German amps really do it for me.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

efiltsohg said:


> thin u is also a way better neck profile than any ibanez


Agreed 100%.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> I love how people bash ENGL based on their price/quality ratio totally forgetting they are twice the price in the US than Europe. Never gets old.
> 
> 
> The most expensive ENGLs you can buy in Europe are around 2300€, and they start around 1000€. Diezels start at 2000€ up to 3300€ (and they used to be way more expensive). Comparing them just because they're both German brands is just silly. They are not in the same price ranges and sound nothing alike.
> 
> They are built as Peaveys because they are in the same price range as Peaveys. A likewise comparison would be indeed comparing Peavey and Mesa Boogie just because they're american.


I never forget that they are twice the price in the USA. I am from the USA.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> I love how people bash ENGL based on their price/quality ratio totally forgetting they are twice the price in the US than Europe. Never gets old.
> 
> 
> The most expensive ENGLs you can buy in Europe are around 2300€, and they start around 1000€. Diezels start at 2000€ up to 3300€ (and they used to be way more expensive). Comparing them just because they're both German brands is just silly. They are not in the same price ranges and sound nothing alike.
> 
> They are built as Peaveys because they are in the same price range as Peaveys. A likewise comparison would be indeed comparing Peavey and Mesa Boogie just because they're american.



Because people think spending lots on a shitty Engl is doing something great. Those amps are shit and coveted by folks who think spending lots of money makes for good tone


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Eh, ENGL makes some neat amps, they just don't tend to be as popular. The Morse and Blackmore are solid, and the E530 preamp can sound really good too. 

Everyone always thinks of the Powerball, Invader, and Savage, which are pretty "meh" in that order from worse to best. 

Though I think a lot of the ENGL mystique has faded on its own. It remember going to some dude's house out in WPB because he was the only "importer" of them in the country, and at the time no one was really doing what they were. This must have been about 2000? 

They also made waves by making a $4k (in early 00's money) amp that wasn't a boutique clone. That certainly drew attention. 

If I had to choose an amp company that is far overrated, it would be Blackstar. They made one decent amp and then tons of instantly forgettable paint by numbers amps.

Also an unpopular opinion: Crate made great amps. The Flexwave stuff was great old school solid state fun, and neat stuff like the Powerblock was way ahead of its time. They made some more "vintage" focused stuff that could easily compete, in context, with Fender gear at like a fifth the price.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, ENGL makes some neat amps, they just don't tend to be as popular. The Morse and Blackmore are solid, and the E530 preamp can sound really good too.
> 
> Everyone always thinks of the Powerball, Invader, and Savage, which are pretty "meh" in that order from worse to best.
> 
> Though I think a lot of the ENGL mystique has faded on its own. It remember going to some dude's house out in WPB because he was the only "importer" of them in the country, and at the time no one was really doing what they were. This must have been about 2000?
> 
> They also made waves by making a $4k (in early 00's money) amp that wasn't a boutique clone. That certainly drew attention.
> 
> If I had to choose an amp company that is far overrated, it would be Blackstar. They made one decent amp and then tons of instantly forgettable paint by numbers amps.
> 
> Also an unpopular opinion: Crate made great amps. The Flexwave stuff was great old school solid state fun, and neat stuff like the Powerblock was way ahead of its time. They made some more "vintage" focused stuff that could easily compete, in context, with Fender gear at like a fifth the price.




Was Blackstar even rated at all? I remember when they came out with that 200 watt amp or whatever but nobody ever said it was good and I've never heard good things.

Also I heard that the Crate Blue Voodoo 300 watt amps are great. I always wanted to try one


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Was Blackstar even rated at all? I remember when they came out with that 200 watt amp or whatever but nobody ever said it was good and I've never heard good things.
> 
> Also I heard that the Crate Blue Voodoo 300 watt amps are great. I always wanted to try one



The BV300 is interesting, but not really that great. It's just so boomy and dark is borders on unusable. 

I've heard recordings that are decent, but compared to what I've heard live and in the room, they must have taken a lot of massaging. 

The concept was neat, execution not so much.


----------



## efiltsohg

The problem with crates is that they light on fire and fall apart and shit


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Also an unpopular opinion: Crate made great amps. The Flexwave stuff was great old school solid state fun, and neat stuff like the Powerblock was way ahead of its time. They made some more "vintage" focused stuff that could easily compete, in context, with Fender gear at like a fifth the price.


Eh, I dunno. I've only heard a few and wrote the company off. The Blue Doodoo I tried was probably the lamest amp I've ever tried.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Eh, I dunno. I've only heard a few and wrote the company off. The Blue Doodoo I tried was probably the lamest amp I've ever tried.



The Blue Voodoo were not very good. Crate made much better solid state amps.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Blue Voodoo were not very good. Crate made much better solid state amps.


I tried some of the solid states and didn't like them enough to look into them further. Not sure that there are any solid state amps that'd be better for what I want than maybe a Randall from the 80s or an ISP Theta.


----------



## SexHaver420

Modern Orange amps sound way worse than the old ones. They're like hey we just gave a Marshall some low mids and made it Orange. The only ones I've liked were the Terror Bass series because they're way cheaper and sound almost as good as the AD200 and the CR120 cuz it's cheap and sounds pretty good for a solid state. A new Rockerverb 100 costs more than a Matamp and the Matamps are built way way better (they built all of the good Orange amps anyway).

Fender amps are terrible and super scooped and way too bright. Their clean tones are the most overrated ones on the planet. My old Ampeg V4 sounds better clean and is way more versatile. The Musicman HD series are also the best amps Leo Fender ever made.

I have no idea why people like Marshall amps. They're so thin. I want my amp to have enough low mids that it feels like I'm being punched in the chest when I crank it and no Marshall has ever given me that feeling. A cranked Hiwatt sounds way better to me than a cranked Plexi. Also any of their amps made after the JCM800 is garbage besides the 900SLX.


----------



## Descent

Emperoff said:


> I love how people bash ENGL based on their price/quality ratio totally forgetting they are twice the price in the US than Europe. Never gets old.
> 
> 
> The most expensive ENGLs you can buy in Europe are around 2300€, and they start around 1000€. Diezels start at 2000€ up to 3300€ (and they used to be way more expensive). Comparing them just because they're both German brands is just silly. They are not in the same price ranges and sound nothing alike.
> 
> They are built as Peaveys because they are in the same price range as Peaveys. A likewise comparison would be indeed comparing Peavey and Mesa Boogie just because they're american.


Peavey are not American, they're Chinese and a shadow of the quality they once had. Severely overpriced IMO.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

SexHaver420 said:


> Modern Orange amps sound way worse than the old ones. They're like hey we just gave a Marshall some low mids and made it Orange.
> 
> I have no idea why people like Marshall amps. They're so thin. I want my amp to have enough low mids that it feels like I'm being punched in the chest when I crank it and no Marshall has ever given me that feeling.


----------



## SexHaver420

I probably should have phrased the Orange thing better but the new ones are way more Marshally than the old ones and don't have the same amount of low end.

Also Marshalls are most overrated of the old British amps. Hiwatts, Matamps, and Sound Cities kick their ass in volume and clarity.


----------



## akinari

Big lol


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Um, I am not so sure about Engls being bad. Saw Judas Priest with Falcon Faulkner with his Powerballs during soundcheck, and honestly thought they sounded great. It even sounded a bit Marshall-esque when he used his LPC.

Same with Holt when he was bringing a Savage in Oakland with Exodus. The Blackmore is one of their better ones too.

Marty Friedman, sounded bad and thin with his Inferno. lol

And also, Dean MLs and Dimebags make me cringe. 8 out of 10 chance that a guy with an ML is a Dime copycat or a Pantera fanboy. Getcha Pull! You talkin to meeeee???


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

SexHaver420 said:


> I probably should have phrased the Orange thing better but the new ones are way more Marshally than the old ones and don't have the same amount of low end.
> 
> Also Marshalls are most overrated of the old British amps. Hiwatts, Matamps, and Sound Cities kick their ass in volume and clarity.


I like Hiwatts for cleans, but I doubt I'd prefer them for what I typically play.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MASS DEFECT said:


> And also, Dean MLs and Dimebags make me cringe. 8 out of 10 chance that a guy with an ML is a Dime copycat or a Pantera fanboy. Getcha Pull! You talkin to meeeee???


Pantera past CFH is increasingly worse. The wannabe tough guy shit from Phil was a joke, he's not a screamer, he ruined his great singing voice doing that shit, and Dime's tone got increasingly worse.

I'll stick to CFH and before, thanks. I think the stuff after is alright, but the stuff before is awesome, especially Dime's tone.


----------



## narad

SexHaver420 said:


> I probably should have phrased the Orange thing better but the new ones are way more Marshally than the old ones and don't have the same amount of low end.
> 
> Also Marshalls are most overrated of the old British amps. Hiwatts, Matamps, and Sound Cities kick their ass in volume and clarity.



Not many people looking for volume these days.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MASS DEFECT said:


> And also, Dean MLs and Dimebags make me cringe. 8 out of 10 chance that a guy with an ML is a Dime copycat or a Pantera fanboy. Getcha Pull! You talkin to meeeee???



I don't think this is an unpopular opinion. It's pretty much just fact....and this is coming from a guy who plays Dean Modifier MLs exclusively.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I don't think this is an unpopular opinion. It's pretty much just fact....and this is coming from a guy who plays Dean Modifier MLs exclusively.



Yep. Im on the Randall fan page on Facebook and 90% of the user base are Dimebag tone chasers using Dean MLs.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yep. Im on the Randall fan page on Facebook and 90% of the user base are Dimebag tone chasers using Dean MLs.


Yeah I joined a Dean players group once and left 4 minutes later. Full of wannabe rednecks doing Dime cosplay.


----------



## BornToLooze

This is one of the most underrated body shapes of all time


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BornToLooze said:


> This is one of the most underrated body shapes of all time



That's ugly, stupid looking, and kinda cool all at the same time. I like it. I don't think I'd play it...but I like it


----------



## TedEH

BornToLooze said:


> This is one of the most underrated body shapes of all time


I like the body shape, but I think I dislike just about everything else. The notch cut out of the headstock and pickguard look bad. The whole shape of the pickguard looks bad. The control layout looks counterintuitive to me. Would not be my choice of pickups. I'm ok with the detuner thing though.

Give me that shape, but with a more traditionally shaped guard, take the notch out of the headstock, but some good quality passives in there, and put then controls in a line. Then you'd have my attention. I do like the shape though. It's explorer-ish, but has that swoopy cutout thing to make it more modern.


----------



## Ribboz

Unpopular Opinion: Guitar gear helps distract from crippling depression and other realities we wish to avoid.

Is this unpopular?


----------



## prlgmnr

Can't deny that a pretty good way to gauge my mood is to ask am I a)playing guitar or b)looking at guitars to buy.


----------



## oneblackened

MaxOfMetal said:


> The BV300 is interesting, but not really that great. It's just so boomy and dark is borders on unusable.
> 
> I've heard recordings that are decent, but compared to what I've heard live and in the room, they must have taken a lot of massaging.
> 
> The concept was neat, execution not so much.


Luckily, the BV150/300 are easily modded to be not so dark and boomy. Pretty simple component swaps will get you there. And the power amp on the 300 is literally just that of an SVT - those suckers are _LOUD. _As in, Marshall Major levels of jaw loosening, ear shattering, speaker blowing, your bassist will fucking hate you, loud.


----------



## vilk

I used to play a Blue Voodoo in this low-ceiling mini-basement with this drummer who just fucking slams so hard every hit... honestly I can say I've never before or since experienced playing so loudly into a halfstack and being able to hear absolutely *nothing*. Now I'm admitting right now there were multiple factors contributing to this sonically miserable experience of mine, be it the hard hitting drummer or the low ceiling, but the BV certainly wasn't helping us out.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

oneblackened said:


> Luckily, the BV150/300 are easily modded to be not so dark and boomy. Pretty simple component swaps will get you there. And the power amp on the 300 is literally just that of an SVT - those suckers are _LOUD. _As in, Marshall Major levels of jaw loosening, ear shattering, speaker blowing, your bassist will fucking hate you, loud.



Even if cut in half I don't see it being great outside of some small niches. Volume for the sake of volume really. 

I have an SVT and it's a completely different beast. At least that's how it feels and sounds, even with guitar.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

KT90s are great for guitar amps and should be used more


----------



## Avedas

I've never heard an Orange that didn't sound like a pile of mud. Similar to a dual rec, I think I'm physically incapable of dialing one in properly. The only difference is I've heard other people make a dual rec sound good, but never an Orange.


----------



## Vostre Roy

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> KT90s are great for guitar amps and should be used more



I'm actually super tempted to try them on my Marshall-clone 50w, but I fear that the tube will be too tall for it lol


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Avedas said:


> I've never heard an Orange that didn't sound like a pile of mud. Similar to a dual rec, I think I'm physically incapable of dialing one in properly. The only difference is I've heard other people make a dual rec sound good, but never an Orange.



Andreas Kisser from Sepultura have been using Orange amps lately and he is getting great tones.


----------



## jarledge

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> KT90s are great for guitar amps and should be used more



I love the 66s and 88s but never tried a 90. I don't like marshall amps after the 900 but was excited when the vintage modern came out because it had kt66s which i usually like. They tend to have a nice bass low mid bump, and typically aren't harsh in the higher mids like some el34s can be. Man i was so disappointed in that amp. It lacked everything i thought it would have. 

One amp I don't understand how it wasn't more popular was the mesa stiletto ace. It was really close to a mesa lone star, and they can be found really cheap. I had one, and let it go. I keep waiting to find the right one to buy it again. 

The stiletto line as a whole was misunderstood and i think marketed wrong. The deuce/trident were a bright throaty amp in the vein of an 800 and meant to be used like an 800 with a TS smashing the front end. In stereo with a recto they were brutal. People thought they should be a 6505/5150 with lots of gain on tap because that is what mesa was known for (marks and rectos) and that was how they were marketed.


----------



## USMarine75

GunpointMetal said:


> Impressed it only took like 29 pages before half of you went full boomer and started comparing shit like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin to modern metal as if it was even sort of relevant. If you’re playing sloppy drunk bar rock, no need to quantize your drums, or record to a click, and you can knock out an entire album of drum tracks “at the studio” in an afternoon. It’s not gonna make the music better, or relevant in any way.
> Unpopular opinion: Comparing music that was produced last year in an entirely different genre than some favorite of yours from 30 years ago makes you look stupid and dated and discredits all further opinions on every topic in this scope. Get you LP and go bang out some AcDc on your vintage Marshall full stack and stay the fuck away from modern music.



I stopped reading when you said.


----------



## oracles

Cynicanal said:


> The Diezel VH4 is a dull and uninspiring amp. It doesn't even dream of sounding as good as any number of amps that are 1/4th the price or less. It's like someone took a Marshall, chopped its balls off, and then gave it a bunch of needless boominess in the low end. Why do people covet these so much?



The VH4 holds the title of the most widely praised, and thoroughly underwhelming amp I've ever played. I read nothing about hype for these for YEARS, finally got to play one and cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would want to own one. If "meh" had a tone, its a VH4. Also never gelled with any of the other Diezels I've tried, but none was as bad as the VH4.


----------



## jco5055

I pretty much always hate guitar picks with some form of "grip" to them, I prefer a very smooth, grip-free feel for picking personally. I can't decide if I must secretly grip tighter than optimal to prevent the moving of the pick or everyone who prefers grip has inferior picking technique...or maybe they just sweat more than I do haha.


----------



## TedEH

Oooooooh I remember this VH4. I googled it, and I remember that I did demo one a few years ago in a store, because the guy in the shop insisted I'd probably love that amp. It was.... ok? It was certainly loud, and certainly "metal" sounding, but it had no life to it. I've heard people refer to a Mark as "dry", but the VH4 was barren more than dry, from what I remember. Very uninspired sounding. No "mojo", for lack of more ways to describe it.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

The VH4 like the SLO needs some volume to sound good. I like Ch3 the most.


----------



## c7spheres

vilk said:


> I used to play a Blue Voodoo in this low-ceiling mini-basement with this drummer who just fucking slams so hard every hit... honestly I can say I've never before or since experienced playing so loudly into a halfstack and being able to hear absolutely *nothing*. Now I'm admitting right now there were multiple factors contributing to this sonically miserable experience of mine, be it the hard hitting drummer or the low ceiling, but the BV certainly wasn't helping us out.



- I heard Blue Voodoo's and they always sounded really thin and trebly to me. 
- I've played with drummers like that too. They sound greart but need one of those sheilds, otherwise your guitar pickups are now a microphone and you hear every snare hit through your amp. That's freakin loud! But in a basement. That's gotta hurt.


----------



## Mathemagician

I still to this day have no idea what “getcha pull” is supposed to mean. It never came up in anything I’d read (this was before YouTube) and frankly the tone on the records and “Rehd Neyuck” posturing was enough for me to pass.


----------



## Boofchuck

Ribboz said:


> Unpopular Opinion: Guitar gear helps distract from crippling depression and other realities we wish to avoid.
> 
> Is this unpopular?


Thinking about all of the things I can do with the HX Stomp helps me clear my mind and sleep.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Mathemagician said:


> I still to this day have no idea what “getcha pull” is supposed to mean. It never came up in anything I’d read (this was before YouTube) and frankly the tone on the records and “Rehd Neyuck” posturing was enough for me to pass.


I always thought getcha pull meant pulling the floyd rose up to get his squeals. Exhorder was better. I like Dime for his guitar playing and advancing a solid state rig. I like how the rhythm section is tight and locked in.

I just couldn't get into Phil and his tough guy lyrics. And the cowboy hats and the big ole Texas swag and Confederate flags didn't sit well with me.


----------



## StevenC

I know this is unpopular opinions, but I'm kinda surprised because the only Diezel I'm not madly in love with is the Big Max.


----------



## budda

Folks secretly love fender cleans but won't admit it online.


----------



## vilk

I realize I haven't played every Russian Big Muff out there... and really this talk of comparison is based off my JHS Muffaletta (since it's so easy to flip between different muffs)...

...but... Civil War >>> Pi > Triangle >>>>>> Russian

I just can't wrap my head around why Russian Big Muffs are so popular and sought after, especially by doom metallers. They have less gain than most other muffs, 30% of the tone sweep is unusably dark and then the remaining 70% is unusably thin (and actually that is a complaint I have about nearly all EHX Big Muffs, but it's even more exaggerated on Green Russian). 

About 100% easier to get better tones out of a Civil War or a Pi or a Triangle. I think people must like these Russian ones because they look cool and are humongous? But you can find a pretty humongous Pi or Tri as well and it will sound better and be easier to dial in.


----------



## Ribboz

MASS DEFECT said:


> The VH4 like the SLO needs some volume to sound good. I like Ch3 the most.


The SLO sounds great at low volume. Sure the magic starts when it gets loud. But that applies to almost every amp. If your SLO sounds bad at low volume, it may need different preamp tubes.


----------



## TedEH

MASS DEFECT said:


> The VH4 like the SLO needs some volume to sound good. I like Ch3 the most.


When I demo'd it, I had an isolated room and plenty of volume, and enough demo time that I can't blame cold tubes or something. My review stands. The VH4 had none of the mojo I like in an amp.


----------



## oneblackened

Ribboz said:


> The SLO sounds great at low volume. Sure the magic starts when it gets loud. But that applies to almost every amp. If your SLO sounds bad at low volume, it may need different preamp tubes.


That's the beauty of the SLO. It _is_ that good at low volumes. 

Speaking of, Mesa lifting the SLO preamp and then cheaping out on the power section for the Rectifier series may just be the single most bullshit thing I've seen in a while.


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> Folks secretly love fender cleans


I thought this was a VERY popular opinion. As in, fender cleans are generally people's reference point for clean tones.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Unpopular Opinion:

Guitarists who call out companies/builders for copying certain guitar designs, but see no problem with "unofficial" models/profiles of amps on digital gear are hypocrits. 

For the record, in certain situations, I'm in that boat too.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> I thought this was a VERY popular opinion. As in, fender cleans are generally people's reference point for clean tones.



It was moreso about the folks who tout other clean tones as better, but they love the fender clean tones on their favourite albums.


----------



## TedEH

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists who call out companies/builders for copying certain guitar designs, but see no problem with "unofficial" models/profiles of amps on digital gear are hypocrits.


I don't disagree at face value, but I think you'd have more to stand on if basically all amps weren't so derivative in the first place. To my ears, most amps aren't really distinct enough in what they do to really "own" a sound. There's a reason we have "all amps sound the same" videos/arguments. Maybe that's exactly your point though. Most superstrats basically look the same, on some level, so maybe there's that.


----------



## USMarine75

MaxOfMetal said:


> Unpopular Opinion:
> 
> Guitarists who call out companies/builders for copying certain guitar designs, but see no problem with "unofficial" models/profiles of amps on digital gear are hypocrits.
> 
> For the record, in certain situations, I'm in that boat too.



Did you see that the Diezel VHX supposedly has Kemper Anti-profiling tech?

(there's a Bloomberg joke in there somewhere BTW)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> I don't disagree at face value, but I think you'd have more to stand on if basically all amps weren't so derivative in the first place. To my ears, most amps aren't really distinct enough in what they do to really "own" a sound. There's a reason we have "all amps sound the same" videos/arguments. Maybe that's exactly your point though. Most superstrats basically look the same, on some level, so maybe there's that.



There's a difference between a derivative work and an outright copy. 

A Vigier Excalibur is derivative of a Fender Strat. The model of a Marshall 2203 on the AxeFx is (at least trying to be) identical. 

The intent is important. No one thinks Vigier is trying to copy a Fender, but the whole concept of amp modeling is to create a 1:1 copy.


----------



## TedEH

I was thinking more of the "Mesa's xyz is just a modded Peavey blah blah which is just a modded Marshall 987656 which is just a modded Fender phphphph which is just a...." etc etc. kind of history of amps.

In terms of intent of amp models, I mostly agree with you. But it's a thin line between that and models "inspired by", which is arguably comparable to the basis of a lot of real amp design in the first place.


----------



## narad

TedEH said:


> I thought this was a VERY popular opinion. As in, fender cleans are generally people's reference point for clean tones.



I think in the metal community a fender clean is the reference tone that no one knows. When you sold your crate combo and got your first 3-channel metal amp with a clean channel that wasn't outright dogshit, come immediately to SSO and write about how it has a beautiful Fender clean with plenty of "chime" and "takes pedals well".


----------



## TedEH

I'm either misunderstanding you, or you might be confusing me with someone else - I play a Mark IV most of the time - which sort of plays into both the previous comments:
The original Boogie/Mark amp was a modded Fender - and the cleans on it are (IMO) fantastic.


----------



## narad

TedEH said:


> I'm either misunderstanding you, or you might be confusing me with someone else - I play a Mark IV most of the time - which sort of plays into both the previous comments:
> The original Boogie/Mark amp was a modded Fender - and the cleans on it are (IMO) fantastic.



Yea, I don't know why I wrote it that way. The "royal you", i.e., not you specifically, but something people do here.


----------



## TedEH

Ah gotcha. 

I think I spend a lot of time in the Mark thread, and forget that a lot of the other amps people really like sometimes have.... less than stellar cleans.

Actually - how could I have forgotten this gem of an unpopular opinion:
R2 on a Mark IV is actually great, but people think it sucks cause they don't know how to use a low gain sound. Bonus points for combining it with el34s.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

jco5055 said:


> I pretty much always hate guitar picks with some form of "grip" to them, I prefer a very smooth, grip-free feel for picking personally. I can't decide if I must secretly grip tighter than optimal to prevent the moving of the pick or everyone who prefers grip has inferior picking technique...or maybe they just sweat more than I do haha.


The only "grip" I like on picks is whatever that stuff is that is on new pencil erasers.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> I was thinking more of the "Mesa's xyz is just a modded Peavey blah blah which is just a modded Marshall 987656 which is just a modded Fender phphphph which is just a...." etc etc. kind of history of amps.
> 
> In terms of intent of amp models, I mostly agree with you. But it's a thin line between that and models "inspired by", which is arguably comparable to the basis of a lot of real amp design in the first place.



When a company says "inspired by", what they mean is "don't sue us". While I don't know how that would play out, there's a reason that modeler companies don't just say "this a Marshall 2203", and it's mostly because they can't say that without a certain amount of liability. 

It goes back to derivative works. Folks who say "a Marshall is just a Bassman" are 1) being completely patronizing and pedantic, and 2) would thus never use a Marshall or Bassman interchangeably in almost all situations. 

That's what seperates a derivative, yet standalone benchmark and an actual copy.


----------



## Science_Penguin

jco5055 said:


> I pretty much always hate guitar picks with some form of "grip" to them, I prefer a very smooth, grip-free feel for picking personally. I can't decide if I must secretly grip tighter than optimal to prevent the moving of the pick or everyone who prefers grip has inferior picking technique...or maybe they just sweat more than I do haha.



Can confirm- my go-to is a Dunlop Max Grip because I sweat like a motherfucker.


----------



## c7spheres

MaxOfMetal said:


> Unpopular Opinion:
> 
> Guitarists who call out companies/builders for copying certain guitar designs, but see no problem with "unofficial" models/profiles of amps on digital gear are hypocrits.
> 
> For the record, in certain situations, I'm in that boat too.



- I think it's funny how Synergy does this. They're all about how "these are the real thing" by the actual designers of the amps who get paid for it and not getting ripped off by some modeller company etc... but then they go and use Fender and Marshall style amps for their own Synergy branded modules : ) I guess they're only half-hypocirties. I hope they do a Mesa version someday. 

- Either way I don't see a huge problem with it (even though it's ethically questionable) because I know at best something will be similar and not an actual copy, even if I can't tell the differences between them. 

- At the end of the day I will use whatever I like best albeit guitars, amps etc. Even if that means little children in sweat shops jump out windows from making them. Well, ok maybe not that far. It's not like I have an I-Phone or something. (It's a bad joke people)


----------



## TedEH

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's what seperates a derivative, yet standalone benchmark and an actual copy.


In the spirit of unpopular opinions, I think that unless the circuit is pretty clearly the same, amps in general sound too alike to make that distinction.

When it comes to something like profiling, maybe a better analogy is sampling. If you're against profiling amps, then you should also be against sample libraries. Also plugins that attempt to tone-match. If they sound too similar to be just derivative, then it must be a copy.

Actually, I'll count that as an unpopular opinion in itself. Amp sims and profiles are analogous to drum samples as well as vocal corrections. If you're against one (ethically speaking, not talking about taste), you should be against all of them.


----------



## StevenC

c7spheres said:


> - I think it's funny how Synergy does this. They're all about how "these are the real thing" by the actual designers of the amps who get paid for it and not getting ripped off by some modeller company etc... but then they go and use Fender and Marshall style amps for their own Synergy branded modules : ) I guess they're only half-hypocirties. I hope they do a Mesa version someday.


I've been enjoying watching Vai endorse Synergy and get closer and closer to the line of what he can or can't say. "B-Man, we all now what that is [wiggles eyebrows]"


----------



## c7spheres

StevenC said:


> I've been enjoying watching Vai endorse Synergy and get closer and closer to the line of what he can or can't say. "B-Man, we all now what that is [wiggles eyebrows]"


- I really am interested in those Synergy modules though. That TDLX is pretty nice sounding it seems. 
- Honestly if I put myself in the companies shoes who are getting cloned I would be a bit upset. I think they do deserve some type of royalty or something (even as a token of appreciation) soley because of this wink-wink style eluding to comparisons of their products which the modeller companies use them for. At the end of the day the modelling companies (analog or digital) are profiting from the other comanies name, even by using phrases like "inpired by" or even "British" or "American" style etc. Everyone know what point they're trying to get across. They're trying to say this is like a Boogie or Marshall etc. If they just said something to the effect of this is a great distortion used for rock and roll or metal then they wouldn't sell as many units and not be thought of as highly either. It's all that placebo type stuff.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> In the spirit of unpopular opinions, I think that unless the circuit is pretty clearly the same, amps in general sound too alike to make that distinction.
> 
> When it comes to something like profiling, maybe a better analogy is sampling. If you're against profiling amps, then you should also be against sample libraries. Also plugins that attempt to tone-match. If they sound too similar to be just derivative, then it must be a copy.
> 
> Actually, I'll count that as an unpopular opinion in itself. Amp sims and profiles are analogous to drum samples as well as vocal corrections. If you're against one (ethically speaking, not talking about taste), you should be against all of them.



My point is, there's more to an amp than preamp design outside of the vaccum of diagrams. 

I also wouldn't make the jump that an amp sim/model is analogous to a drum sample. 

In a drum sample, the product is the production of that sample. You're paying not for the item in the sample (the drum) you're paying for the production of the sample itself. I can see the similarities with a profile though, you make a good point. Especially profiles that are very well done.


----------



## StevenC

TedEH said:


> In the spirit of unpopular opinions, I think that unless the circuit is pretty clearly the same, amps in general sound too alike to make that distinction.
> 
> When it comes to something like profiling, maybe a better analogy is sampling. If you're against profiling amps, then you should also be against sample libraries. Also plugins that attempt to tone-match. If they sound too similar to be just derivative, then it must be a copy.
> 
> Actually, I'll count that as an unpopular opinion in itself. Amp sims and profiles are analogous to drum samples as well as vocal corrections. If you're against one (ethically speaking, not talking about taste), you should be against all of them.


That's a pretty weak analogy.

A sample is a concrete finite piece of information. Digital, analogue or physical a single instance of a sound is really only that. I can sample a snare but I can't hit that sample with a stick and play it.

A model or profile is a lot more abstract. It's not an A at 440Hz played through a 2204 with all the controls on 10 into a 1936 with V30s mic'd in a specific room with a 121 and 57. It's all possible notes played at all possible settings going into several possible cabs and speakers and microphones. I can plug into a model or profile and use it exactly like an amp.


----------



## TedEH

StevenC said:


> A model or profile is a lot more abstract. It's not an A at 440Hz played through a 2204 with all the controls on 10 into a 1936 with V30s mic'd in a specific room with a 121 and 57. It's all possible notes played at all possible settings going into several possible cabs and speakers and microphones. I can plug into a model or profile and use it exactly like an amp.



I mean, drum libraries are created in such a way that you _can_ play them. That's their whole point. You don't record _one_ drum hit and call it a day, you get a multitude of discrete samples - at different velocities, articulation, etc., and then they get manipulated in software in terms of pitch, volume, etc. to make them more convincing, so that you CAN play them (say through an e-kit, or programmed through midi) to simulate the sound of playing the actual kit.


----------



## StevenC

c7spheres said:


> - I really am interested in those Synergy modules though. That TDLX is pretty nice sounding it seems.
> - Honestly if I put myself in the companies shoes who are getting cloned I would be a bit upset. I think they do deserve some type of royalty or something (even as a token of appreciation) soley because of this wink-wink style eluding to comparisons of their products which the modeller companies use them for. At the end of the day the modelling companies (analog or digital) are profiting from the other comanies name, even by using phrases like "inpired by" or even "British" or "American" style etc. Everyone know what point they're trying to get across. They're trying to say this is like a Boogie or Marshall etc. If they just said something to the effect of this is a great distortion used for rock and roll or metal then they wouldn't sell as many units and not be thought of as highly either. It's all that placebo type stuff.


Honestly, at least with Synergy, I don't think any of the cloned companies have much of claim to a royalty. They're all ancient companies with all of the key contributors dead and long dissociated from them. They've all been in the game long enough to have made as much hay as they deserve. If it were patentable it would be long expired and being nostalgia based they've never done anything that might have advanced those claims. And beyond that artist royalties extend for too long, so they should get anything like that. It's just too difficult to describe these things without lots of winks and nudges.

The smaller companies have done the right thing with Synergy to control their own brand and product, but even then the don't have a lot of modules that are younger than 20 years or not a repackaging of something older.

And then there's Dumble, but I guess that guy probably doesn't care what people do.


----------



## oneblackened

MaxOfMetal said:


> It goes back to derivative works. Folks who say "a Marshall is just a Bassman" are 1) being completely patronizing and pedantic, and 2) would thus never use a Marshall or Bassman interchangeably in almost all situations.


Marshalls stopped being Bassman copies within about a year of production starting, so people saying "oh it's just a 5F6A" are Dunning-Krueger'ing.



MaxOfMetal said:


> My point is, there's more to an amp than preamp design outside of the vaccum of diagrams.


 Fucking YES! 

People don't take into account the power supply or the power section nearly enough. Like I said a couple pages ago: The SLO and the Recto share about 98% of the same preamp design. The difference is the power amp and the power supply (the SLO has far beefier of both - the core size of an SLO's OT is at least twice the size if not more of the Recto's, plus the power supply is so much more robust and stiffer).


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Every time I see someone make the "aLl tUbE aMps aRe bAsEd oN aN oLd RCA rAdIo" or "aLl mArShAlLs aRe jUsT mOdDeD fEnDeR tWeEdS" argument I want to punch a baby.


----------



## c7spheres

StevenC said:


> Honestly, at least with Synergy, I don't think any of the cloned companies have much of claim to a royalty. They're all ancient companies with all of the key contributors dead and long dissociated from them. They've all been in the game long enough to have made as much hay as they deserve. If it were patentable it would be long expired and being nostalgia based they've never done anything that might have advanced those claims. And beyond that artist royalties extend for too long, so they should get anything like that. It's just too difficult to describe these things without lots of winks and nudges.
> 
> The smaller companies have done the right thing with Synergy to control their own brand and product, but even then the don't have a lot of modules that are younger than 20 years or not a repackaging of something older.
> 
> And then there's Dumble, but I guess that guy probably doesn't care what people do.


 Totally. How can you describe a Vox type tone without saying the word Vox? It's really hard to do without being generic. I can't blame them for doing it. I'm just happy these products exist to begin with. This is the stuff we've been waiting for for decades and it's finally here and actually on another level, at least as far as the digital modelling goes.


----------



## TedEH

oneblackened said:


> The SLO and the Recto share about 98% of the same preamp design.


That's kinda what I was trying to get at before. Few people go around shouting "Rectos are just SLO copies", despite the preamps being supposedly very similar, but people will gladly shout that just about everything is a strat copy.

It's much harder to make that distinction when you're talking about how something sounds vs. how something looks, and that's really the only point I meant to make.

To my ears, most high gain tube amps sound just as similar (often more similar) to eachother as the models that claim to be copies of those same amps. If amp models are close enough to be copies, then why not also amps that share common heritage? What's so bad about a model that sounds vaguely like a Marshall, compared to the tons of amps out there that market themselves as sounding "like a boosted Marshall"?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

oneblackened said:


> The SLO and the Recto share about 98% of the same preamp design.


Wasn't that just the early revisions?


----------



## TedEH

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "aLl tUbE aMps aRe bAsEd oN aN oLd RCA rAdIo"


For the record, I'm not making that claim. I find it comparable to saying "all guitars are just strats".

At the end of the day, most guitars are a chunk of wood with an arbitrary shape, with some strings, the same basic wirings, components, the same temperment - they have more in common than not. Amps/sims/profiles/all of it are kind of the same.


----------



## sirbuh

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Every time I see someone make the "aLl tUbE aMps aRe bAsEd oN aN oLd RCA rAdIo" or "aLl mArShAlLs aRe jUsT mOdDeD fEnDeR tWeEdS" argument I want to punch a baby.



But what if your base rate for baby punching is already fairly high?


----------



## StevenC

TedEH said:


> I mean, drum libraries are created in such a way that you _can_ play them. That's their whole point. You don't record _one_ drum hit and call it a day, you get a multitude of discrete samples - at different velocities, articulation, etc., and then they get manipulated in software in terms of pitch, volume, etc. to make them more convincing, so that you CAN play them (say through an e-kit, or programmed through midi) to simulate the sound of playing the actual kit.


An e-drum is a different thing to a sample library. A sample is one thing, 1000 samples are 1000 things. I can make a drum part with a sample library without knowing what a drum kit is. I can make a beat out of vocal samples or car engine samples. Those are all distinct and discrete bits of sound.

Early e-drums did record just one sound and call it a day. They had single pads that could either detect a hit or not, and couldn't detect them in quick succession. Sure you can play an e-drum, but you can't play a sample. That's why the verb is program or sequence. I would argue that "playing" music is pretty connected to the performance of the music. I could input the notes for a bar of drums to a DAW or notation software at random moments over the space of a week and still get piece of rhythmic music out of it despite not having anything conceivable as rhythm to my part in the process.

An e-drum is an interface that can trigger samples. A guitar is an interface that "triggers samples". A guitar's resolution can be infinitely higher, an e-drum can only trigger within the scope of what has been recorded and the finite parameters set. An e-drum has a countably infinite number of sounds at most, a guitar has an uncountably infinite number of sounds at most. These are both instruments and neither do anything without that playing.

There's a very real and obvious difference between the instrument you play and the sound you hear. They're very connected but they aren't the same thing. You can make music with samples without playing an instrument. You can't really use an instrument without playing it or physically interacting with it.

A sample is analogous to the sound coming out of an instrument, not the instrument.

A model or plugin or profile is analogous to maybe a real synthesizer. An oscillator that tries really hard to be violin played at any pitch and velocity without having ever heard a violin and simply recalling what that sounded like. Maybe it isn't close, maybe it's convincing enough, or maybe it gets close enough to fool all but the most experienced violinists.

TL;DR I don't know where I'm going with this, it just seems intuitively obvious to me that a thousand snare samples isn't a snare drum, whereas a means to distort a guitar signal is a rose is a rose is a rose. You couldn't write Swerve on a sample library.


----------



## oneblackened

TedEH said:


> That's kinda what I was trying to get at before. Few people go around shouting "Rectos are just SLO copies", despite the preamps being supposedly very similar, but people will gladly shout that just about everything is a strat copy.


Well, in fairness - most people don't actually _know anything_ about amps. It's a lot more complicated to say "the topology of this circuit down to component values is near identical to this eariler amp" than it is to say "this guitar looks like this other guitar". 


HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wasn't that just the early revisions?


Even the later 3 channels aren't substantially different. It's_ still_ just a cheaped down SLO OD channel with added bells and whistles.


----------



## Cynicanal

TedEH said:


> Few people go around shouting "Rectos are just SLO copies", despite the preamps being supposedly very similar, but people will gladly shout that just about everything is a strat copy.


That's because the preamp is only a small part of the picture. The power amps are _radically_ different (even in Red/Vintage on a Recto, which is the closest mode to an SLO), and this causes them to sound drastically different.


----------



## Vyn

Anyone who raves about headless guitars being "comfortable and ergonomic" hasn't ever actually played a V or X shape. Seriously, just get a V.


----------



## Frostbite

V shaped guitars are dumb


----------



## Science_Penguin

Q shaped guitars are the shit.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

A Flying V is great if the strap buttons are in the right spot. Otherwise they just neck dive due to the company being fucking morons.


----------



## narad

Science_Penguin said:


> Q shaped guitars are the shit.


----------



## Vyn

Spaced Out Ace said:


> A Flying V is great if the strap buttons are in the right spot. Otherwise they just neck dive due to the company being fucking morons.



I was more thinking of sitting positions than anything else. V in classical shits over pretty much everything.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> A Flying V is great if the strap buttons are in the right spot. Otherwise they just neck dive due to the company being fucking morons.



So glad Jackson came to their senses on that... Before they started making affordable neck-thru V's and Rhoads', the best option you had under 1k was a bolt on with the upper pin a full inch above the center of the neck joint...

Then, I think around 2011:
"We apologize for the infamous Rhoads neck-dive. Those responsible have been sacked."


----------



## TedEH

I still say that amps sound too similar/general for the average person (maybe not one of us who do this all the time) to be able to listen to one, listen to another and go "that one's clearly a copy of that other one". Whereas anyone can look at two guitars and go "yeah, one's a rip off of the other".


----------



## Matt08642

Possible unpopular opinion: Gibson was lucky the electric guitar didn't exist when the Les Paul was designed/came out, because it's a needlessly heavy, uncomfortable piece of shit that's been spending almost 70 years trying to refine itself to not suck.

Counterpoint: I'm sure people have the same feelings regarding my beloved RG design


----------



## rokket2005

The electric guitar had existed since the 30s. Les Paul made the first solid body.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Matt08642 said:


> Possible unpopular opinion: Gibson was lucky the electric guitar didn't exist when the Les Paul was designed/came out, because it's a needlessly heavy, uncomfortable piece of shit that's been spending almost 70 years trying to refine itself to not suck.
> 
> Counterpoint: I'm sure people have the same feelings regarding my beloved RG design



The Telecaster was already out for a couple of years before the Les Paul I think.


----------



## Matt08642

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The Telecaster was already out for a couple of years before the Les Paul I think.



you’re right - I suppose “barely existed” would have been better to say


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The Telecaster was already out for a couple of years before the Les Paul I think.



Gibson was a legacy guitar company with national distribution, Fender was significantly smaller until years later, so while the "Esquire" came out mid 1950, it wasn't available many places yet, most people probably saw a Les Paul (1952) in most of the country prior to a Fender.

Fender's start was a lot rockier as well. Between neck issues, trademark disputes, and just learning on the go, the output was minimal. 

Fender didn't really hit stride until late 52'/early 53'. By then Gibson was already readying the first revision of the Les Paul.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'm just saying the Les Paul wasn't the first electric. I didn't say anything about Gibson or Fender being better.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm just saying the Les Paul wasn't the first electric. I didn't say anything about Gibson or Fender being better.



I didn't say one was better either, just adding some history and nuance. 

If we want to be pedantic, Fender wasn't even the first.


----------



## vilk

The first electric guitar was when a guy accidentally bumped his indoor clothesline while he was playing theremin.


----------



## gunch

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Majesty is the worse JP model and probably the worse Music Man, and that includes the Benji model.



Technomancer will fight you


----------



## technomancer

gunch said:


> Technomancer will fight you



Nah, technomancer doesn't care what other people think


----------



## gunch

technomancer said:


> Nah, technomancer doesn't care what other people think



Majesties with shovel delete are pretty cool, wouldn't mind one


----------



## Ribboz

I have it on good authority that the first electric guitar started in the 16th century when a violinist was struct by lightning. They then passed the idea down through their grandchildren.

Years later Jose Arredondo's great great grandfather worked with Guglielmo Marconi to invent the first radio with the secret intention of creating a projector for his mythical electric stringed instrument.

RCA and Leo Fender copied the idea from Steve Vai's Dad. Yeah Steve Vai is a direct decendant of that violinist. The electric guitar has been in the making for billions of years. Co evolving along side mankind.

Technomancer will back me up. He will fight you.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Leading over from the Fender MAG 7string thread; I hate it when people take a guitar that normally has 21 or 22 frets and makes it a 24-fretter. 

It either has terrible fret access because the guitar isn't meant to have 24 frets (unless the body has some proper modification and redesign), or you have to scooch the bridge closer to the neck, and that normally looks ugly.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Technogeek couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag.


----------



## StevenC

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Leading over from the Fender MAG 7string thread; I hate it when people take a guitar that normally has 21 or 22 frets and makes it a 24-fretter.
> 
> It either has terrible fret access because the guitar isn't meant to have 24 frets (unless the body has some proper modification and redesign), or you have to scooch the bridge closer to the neck, and that normally looks ugly.


Counterargument: SG


----------



## Choop

StevenC said:


> Counterargument: SG



SG's should have 24 frets by default anyway! It's not like they even take advantage of the neck pickup position by limiting the fretboard to 22, it's just a carryover from the traditional design. 

...is this an unpopular opinion?^


----------



## LeftOurEyes

Choop said:


> SG's should have 24 frets by default anyway! It's not like they even take advantage of the neck pickup position by limiting the fretboard to 22, it's just a carryover from the traditional design.
> 
> ...is this an unpopular opinion?^



Well a lot of SGs have pretty bad neck dive so a longer neck wouldn't help that part out


----------



## Choop

LeftOurEyes said:


> Well a lot of SGs have bad neck dive so a longer neck wouldn't help that part out



If you look at a 22 fret SG though, there is significant space between the neck pickup and the end of the fretboard. 24 fret SG's are practically the same as ones with 22 frets, just the fretboard extends farther onto the body. On the subject of neck dive--I don't get it with my SG, but I think the choice of strap makes a pretty big difference.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

StevenC said:


> Counterargument: SG



The SG is weird because it was initially designed to have 22 frets but there's plenty of space for 2 extra frets.  

If you look at a 24-fret SG it's fine.


----------



## sakeido

we're 40 pages in so nothing but bad takes are left. how bout this one

Fuck fret access. Extend the fretboard as far up a slab body as you want, it just means those notes are for right hand tapping only. 

Besides, most people complaining about access just have technique problems. I learned guitar on a Squire Strat with a giant block heel and fret ends so jagged you could use them to shave. I've never had fret access problems, I'm totally indifferent to heel shapes.

If you gotta wrap your hand around the neck to get leverage on bends, take up rock climbing for six months. Finger strength will never be an issue again.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I think wrapping the thumb around the neck for bends is mainly a technique/muscle memory thing.


----------



## Metropolis

sakeido said:


> we're 40 pages in so nothing but bad takes are left. how bout this one
> 
> Fuck fret access. Extend the fretboard as far up a slab body as you want, it just means those notes are for right hand tapping only.
> 
> Besides, most people complaining about access just have technique problems. I learned guitar on a Squire Strat with a giant block heel and fret ends so jagged you could use them to shave. I've never had fret access problems, I'm totally indifferent to heel shapes.
> 
> If you gotta wrap your hand around the neck to get leverage on bends, take up rock climbing for six months. Finger strength will never be an issue again.



Bridge and pickup placement would be difficult. Even fanned fret guitars and some baritones have them pretty weird way. It produces different kind of tone and many don't want that.

It's not only just about access, mainly just for comfort of nothing being in a way of your hands. I hate Les Paul and PRS style set necks or big blocks on a bolt-on.

I bet Rusty Cooley doesn't have technique problems and still designs a guitar like this, which is extreme case of all access.


----------



## narad

Metropolis said:


> Bridge and pickup placement would be difficult. Even fanned fret guitars and some baritones have them pretty weird way. It produces different kind of tone and many don't want that.
> 
> It's not only just about access, mainly just for comfort of nothing being in a way of your hands. I hate Les Paul and PRS style set necks or big blocks on a bolt-on.
> 
> I bet Rusty Cooley doesn't have technique problems and still designs a guitar like this, which is extreme case of all access.



It's only because Rusty wants people to focus on his music, so he designs a guitar that makes you want to close your eyes and pay attention to your other senses.


----------



## c7spheres

Metropolis said:


> Bridge and pickup placement would be difficult. Even fanned fret guitars and some baritones have them pretty weird way. It produces different kind of tone and many don't want that.
> 
> It's not only just about access, mainly just for comfort of nothing being in a way of your hands. I hate Les Paul and PRS style set necks or big blocks on a bolt-on.
> 
> I bet Rusty Cooley doesn't have technique problems and still designs a guitar like this, which is extreme case of all access.


 That guitar makes a lot of sense, spec-wise. That's a great subtle fan on it. The neck pickup is probably the weak point. I'd rather he put a single coil alnico in the neck. And like most guitars, move that damn volume knob!


----------



## Elric

Thaeon said:


> Dude, after two divorces, happy wife, happy life. At least you’re able to make her happy with something that makes you happy. Also, there’s no such thing as bad music. I use pop music as a means of learn what makes music more widely accessible. I can experiment with Timbre. I think as artists we tend to over intellectualize stuff and forget why we do it in the first place. It’s fun and it’s expressing an idea. If people can’t understand what I’m expressing I’m not able to connect in my preferred way. I’m not saying don’t stimulate your musical mind. I’m saying expand the palette. Learn what is good about that stuff. I find shit to like in pop music all the time. Doesn’t mean Opeth or Meshuggah are any less brilliant or worth my attention.



Dude: There's gotta be something you can do that is more dignified than learning Country tunes.

Have you tried going down on her?


----------



## Thaeon

Elric said:


> Dude: There's gotta be something you can do that is more dignified than learning Country tunes.
> 
> Have you tried going down on her?



That’s one of my favorite things to do actually. Generally I’M the person unhappy in relationships though. I don’t like dividing my attention and women need a lot of it. I don’t enjoy giving it as much as they tend to want it in relationships and I spend most of my time on them pissed off that they won’t leave me alone. They want to talk about things I don’t care about when they’re in a relationship. Philosophy, politics, music, all that shit goes away when they settle in. It’s like they’ve got you and don’t have to pretend anymore. If there’s nothing worth saying, why talk? Most of the time that makes me an asshole I guess. And for the record, it’s not their feelings that I’m averse to talking about. It’s daily bullshit stuff. My day sucked too. We both know your best friend’s boyfriend is a tool. That’s life. Let’s talk about something exciting or I’m going to fall asleep or pretend I’m listening. Either way she’s going to be pissed and I’m an ass. So generally I try to remain single now. My kids give my life meaning and music makes me happy. 

The point is, do what you can to make the relationship the best it can be. If her music and desire for you to play it bothers you so much you can’t take one for the team over it, maybe that relationship isn’t for you. Even if it’s a sacrifice on your part, doing something you aren’t happy about as a gift to a person you care about is part of relationships. You may hate doing it. Be she’ll never forget it as long as she lives. And that translates directly into emotional currency for a woman.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Well this thread went places.


----------



## oneblackened

MaxOfMetal said:


> Well this thread went places.


quite.


----------



## Mathemagician

Rusty Cooley just designed another majesty. Fight me.


----------



## Vyn

On that - Petrucci should have stayed with Ibanez and Music Mans are over hyped.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Vyn said:


> On that - Petrucci should have stayed with Ibanez and Music Mans are over hyped.



No one would like the Ibanez JPM guitars without the artist association.


----------



## Vyn

MaxOfMetal said:


> No one would like the Ibanez JPM guitars without the artist association.



Probably. It's just an interesting pattern that keeps happening:
-JP leaves Ibanez because they won't build him what he wants, shortly after comes out with the Double Edge guitars (which were most likely already in the works when JP was there for JP).
-Chris Brodeck and the 427zs. Same thing.
-Tosin. They actually built two prototypes of a completely new design but he left anyway, and the Abasi guitars have come out arguably as expensive as if he had of stayed with Ibanez anyway.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Vyn said:


> Probably. It's just an interesting pattern that keeps happening:
> -JP leaves Ibanez because they won't build him what he wants, shortly after comes out with the Double Edge guitars (which were most likely already in the works when JP was there for JP).
> -Chris Brodeck and the 427zs. Same thing.
> -Tosin. They actually built two prototypes of a completely new design but he left anyway, and the Abasi guitars have come out arguably as expensive as if he had of stayed with Ibanez anyway.



This is a career for these dudes.

You go where the money is. Look at it more like a promotion or starting your own business. 

Artists move on to better deals. That's how it's supposed to work.


----------



## Necky379

Vented snares are the best snares.

Artificially aged “relic’d” guitars are tacky and not cool.

Middle humbuckers are useful and not obtrusive.


----------



## Mathemagician

MaxOfMetal said:


> No one would like the Ibanez JPM guitars without the artist association.



Shit I still don’t like those Ibanez. 

And yeah assuming Tosin’s guitars cost at retail the exact same that an ibanez would have for the end consumer, he keeps more of the money, has more control, and doesn’t have clauses for touring/shows/appearances to maintain in order to keep a single deal (and the according income stream) afloat. 

I for sure mocked the people blindly buying “low serial #’s” of an unproven concept, but as far as the artist is concerned that was 100% the right business decision. Looking forward to trying one when they become more easily available to me.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

8 strings should just be the max for metal guitars. Nothing more.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MASS DEFECT said:


> 8 strings should just be the max for metal guitars. Nothing more.


I'll do ya one better: 7.

8 is a guibass.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MASS DEFECT said:


> 8 strings should just be the max for metal guitars. Nothing more.


I'd say 6
Unless you're Cannibal Corpse or Morbid Angel..then you can use 7


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'd say 6
> Unless you're Cannibal Corpse or Morbid Angel..then you can use 7


Sorry, Korn and Steve Vai.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Vyn said:


> On that - Petrucci should have stayed with Ibanez and Music Mans are over hyped.



Correction: The JP6/JP7 should be his only Music Man sig. No JPX/XI/12/Majesty or whatever. The JPX+ look like way-to-obese RGs and the Majesty...


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Correction: The JP6/JP7 should be his only Music Man sig. No JPX/XI/12/Majesty or whatever. The JPX+ look like way-to-obese RGs and the Majesty...


Given that JP has a bunch of signature models, I think Slash also has too many signature models.

His classic guitars such as the AFD Les Paul, Goldtop, or his ‘87 Standard should be the signature shit Gibson is making because those are identifiable guitars with Slash’s name (I know Gibson’s making an AFD Les Paul currently), not some Anaconda burst or whatever the hell he has now.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

BenjaminW said:


> Given that JP has a bunch of signature models, I think Slash also has too many signature models.
> 
> His classic guitars such as the AFD Les Paul, Goldtop, or his ‘87 Standard should be the signature shit Gibson is making because those are identifiable guitars with Slash’s name (I know Gibson’s making an AFD Les Paul currently), not some Anaconda burst or whatever the hell he has now.



There are only three Slash signature models (two electric, one being limited, and one acoustic) right now, they just come in more than one color.


----------



## BenjaminW

MaxOfMetal said:


> There are only three Slash signature models (two electric, one being limited, and one acoustic) right now, they just come in more than one color.


Yeah. What I was referring to was that and then also the amount of signature models he’s had over the years.


----------



## r33per

Mathemagician said:


> Shit I still don’t like those Ibanez.


Well, in keeping with the title of this thread: I love those JPMs.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Sorry, Korn and Steve Vai.


 No.


----------



## TedEH

I also kinda like the JPM, but specifically the P4 one. I'd like it much more with a different bridge though.

I've seen those finishes before and didn't follow JP enough to know that it was his sig at the time. Just thought it was a cool pattern, kinda like those jigsaw puzzle finishes or something.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Millennials with rando-custom shop guitars with burl veneers chugging out to contemporary metal are the new old guy with a pre-relic'd Strat or LP coping tired Clapton licks.


----------



## Seabeast2000

PRS aesthetics are fail.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MaxOfMetal said:


> Millennials with rando-custom shop guitars with burl veneers chugging out to contemporary metal are the new old guy with a pre-relic'd Strat or LP coping tired Clapton licks.



This is unpopular?


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Seabeast2000 said:


> PRS aesthetics are fail.



Finally. We have here a very unpopular opinion.


----------



## Demiurge

MaxOfMetal said:


> Millennials with rando-custom shop guitars with burl veneers chugging out to contemporary metal are the new old guy with a pre-relic'd Strat or LP coping tired Clapton licks.



This is a good perspective. People want to buy instruments that their favorite artists play- is there anything deeply wrong with that? Yet there's that the whole "blues lawyer" discourse that invariably finds its way into most Gibson/Fender discussions where it's considered lame or pathetic for older players to pay a hefty sum a 'traditional' guitar that their lifelong heroes play, but younger players paying heftier sums for new designs promoted by less-tenured players is... noble and brave?? Guitarists are a village of glass houses, really.


----------



## Matt08642

MaxOfMetal said:


> Millennials with rando-custom shop guitars with burl veneers chugging out to contemporary metal are the new old guy with a pre-relic'd Strat or LP coping tired Clapton licks.



It's also staggering how poorly a lot of people play considering the gear they have. Not that certain gear makes you better, or you don't "deserve" better gear even if you're terrible, but it worries me seeing a "review" for a $6000 instrument talking about all these subtleties and then when they start playing it looks like they've never held a pick before, or just chug 0 0 0 0 0 0 and talk about how the burl "really tightens up the low end while keeping things dynamic"

The worrisome part is that people might associate the person owning very expensive gear with having a "more valid" perspective than someone else, when the person doing the review is still very much learning what they want/what's "good" to them


----------



## narad

Matt08642 said:


> It's also staggering how poorly a lot of people play considering the gear they have. Not that certain gear makes you better, or you don't "deserve" better gear even if you're terrible, but it worries me seeing a "review" for a $6000 instrument talking about all these subtleties and then when they start playing it looks like they've never held a pick before, or just chug 0 0 0 0 0 0 and talk about how the burl "really tightens up the low end while keeping things dynamic"
> 
> The worrisome part is that people might associate the person owning very expensive gear with having a "more valid" perspective than someone else, when the person doing the review is still very much learning what they want/what's "good" to them



If chugging 0 0 0 0 0 0 works for Ola Englund, it'll work for me too.


----------



## Mathemagician

MASS DEFECT said:


> Finally. We have here a very unpopular opinion.



I actually said “Oooooof” out loud. This one was a hot take. Great addition imo. 5/5



Demiurge said:


> This is a good perspective. People want to buy instruments that their favorite artists play- is there anything deeply wrong with that? Yet there's that the whole "blues lawyer" discourse that invariably finds its way into most Gibson/Fender discussions where it's considered lame or pathetic for older players to pay a hefty sum a 'traditional' guitar that their lifelong heroes play, but younger players paying heftier sums for new designs promoted by less-tenured players is... noble and brave?? Guitarists are a village of glass houses, really.



Yes. Just like when someone talks about who “deserves” signature gear. This is an industry based on money and that’s it. 

Like if you favorite player is a guy who always had a harmonica attached to his acoustic then you’ll probably be very interested in which brand of harmonica holder the guy uses. And when you ask about it you’ll be ignored and told to get a used ibanez prestige with Bareknuckle pickups. The ciiiiiiiircle of liiiiife.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Matt08642 said:


> It's also staggering how poorly a lot of people play considering the gear they have. Not that certain gear makes you better, or you don't "deserve" better gear even if you're terrible, but it worries me seeing a "review" for a $6000 instrument talking about all these subtleties and then when they start playing it looks like they've never held a pick before, or just chug 0 0 0 0 0 0 and talk about how the burl "really tightens up the low end while keeping things dynamic"
> 
> The worrisome part is that people might associate the person owning very expensive gear with having a "more valid" perspective than someone else, when the person doing the review is still very much learning what they want/what's "good" to them


 This is what happens when everyone thinks they need to turn every hobby/interest into a hustle. We have enough YouTube and IG guitarists/gear reviewers trying to get enough views to monetize their content.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Mathemagician said:


> I actually said “Oooooof” out loud. This one was a hot take. Great addition imo. 5/5



I actually think PRS aesthetic points diminish with every dent and scratch. Have you ever seen a relic PRS? A worn PRS that is as beautiful as a worn Gibson LP or Fender? Nope.


----------



## BornToLooze

TedEH said:


> I like the body shape, but I think I dislike just about everything else. The notch cut out of the headstock and pickguard look bad. The whole shape of the pickguard looks bad. The control layout looks counterintuitive to me. Would not be my choice of pickups. I'm ok with the detuner thing though.
> 
> Give me that shape, but with a more traditionally shaped guard, take the notch out of the headstock, but some good quality passives in there, and put then controls in a line. Then you'd have my attention. I do like the shape though. It's explorer-ish, but has that swoopy cutout thing to make it more modern.



They've more normal looking ones, but it seems like for the most part they're all sig guitars or custom shop ones from the '80s.


----------



## TedEH

It is unpopular to think that Teles are ugly? Which is unfortunate cause they tend to sound pretty great.


----------



## USMarine75

sakeido said:


> we're 40 pages in so nothing but bad takes are left. how bout this one
> 
> Fuck fret access. Extend the fretboard as far up a slab body as you want, it just means those notes are for right hand tapping only.
> 
> Besides, most people complaining about access just have technique problems. I learned guitar on a Squire Strat with a giant block heel and fret ends so jagged you could use them to shave. I've never had fret access problems, I'm totally indifferent to heel shapes.
> 
> If you gotta wrap your hand around the neck to get leverage on bends, take up rock climbing for six months. Finger strength will never be an issue again.



Preach.

Besides half these twats crying about upper fret access never play anything above the 12th fret except bullshit "skeet" "skeet" "skeet" dissonant diads to go with their bwomp bwomps in the key of drop-Q. 



narad said:


> It's only because Rusty wants people to focus on his music, so he designs a guitar that makes you want to close your eyes and pay attention to your other senses.


----------



## Jon Pearson

USMarine75 said:


> Preach.
> 
> Besides half these twats crying about upper fret access never play anything above the 12th fret except bullshit "skeet" "skeet" "skeet" dissonant diads to go with their bwomp bwomps in the key of drop-Q.



Hell, I actually usually those frets for solos and riffs, and even I don't get whatever everybody is stressing about. I don't think I have played a solid body electric that has bad fret access to the point that it hinders me. Maybe AT the 22nd or 24th fret, but really, who the hell uses those frets regularly?


----------



## Cynicanal

Matt08642 said:


> It's also staggering how poorly a lot of people play considering the gear they have. Not that certain gear makes you better, or you don't "deserve" better gear even if you're terrible, but it worries me seeing a "review" for a $6000 instrument talking about all these subtleties and then when they start playing it looks like they've never held a pick before, or just chug 0 0 0 0 0 0 and talk about how the burl "really tightens up the low end while keeping things dynamic"


Chugging open power chords is actually one of the most useful things someone can do in a demo, IMO. Everything sounds the same when playing widdly widdly leads; big, held chords and palm-mutes are where you really hear what something sounds like.


----------



## sirbuh

narad said:


> It's only because Rusty wants people to focus on his music, so he designs a guitar that makes you want to close your eyes and pay attention to your other senses.



I love Rusty but omg thats funny.


----------



## USMarine75

Jon Pearson said:


> Hell, I actually usually those frets for solos and riffs, and even I don't get whatever everybody is stressing about. I don't think I have played a solid body electric that has bad fret access to the point that it hinders me. Maybe AT the 22nd or 24th fret, but really, who the hell uses those frets regularly?



Im just talking shit for funsies. But absolutely agree. I have everything from Mayones to Gibsons. As long as they have a good setup then I'm fine. Richie Kotzen, Andy Wood, Yngwie, Jeff Beck, Nick Johnston, etc all have no issues shredding on Strat and Teles with those large heels and 21-22 frets. EVH only used 22 frets.

And I agree... very few guitarists shred up to 24 ever. If they do it’s usually only on the high B and E. And any good guitarist can substitute bends to reach those same notes. 

If one of the most prolific shredders of all time could shred on this, then all excuses are moot. Only 22 frets and a chunky dad-rock heel. (My understanding is he _recorded_ Perpetual Burn and Speed Metal Symphony with the white one)


----------



## USMarine75

MaxOfMetal said:


> No one would like the Ibanez JPM guitars without the artist association.



I hate you so much right now.



^ my P4 courtesy of your pal, Uncreative123.


tl;dr Just kidding, I could never hate you.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

USMarine75 said:


> I hate you so much right now.
> 
> View attachment 82554
> 
> ^ my P4 courtesy of your pal, Uncreative123.
> 
> 
> tl;dr Just kidding, I could never hate you.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BornToLooze said:


> They've more normal looking ones, but it seems like for the most part they're all sig guitars or custom shop ones from the '80s.


Roope's is awesome.


----------



## StevenC

USMarine75 said:


> Im just talking shit for funsies. But absolutely agree. I have everything from Mayones to Gibsons. As long as they have a good setup then I'm fine. Richie Kotzen, Andy Wood, Yngwie, Jeff Beck, Nick Johnston, etc all have no issues shredding on Strat and Teles with those large heels and 21-22 frets. EVH only used 22 frets.
> 
> And I agree... very few guitarists shred up to 24 ever. If they do it’s usually only on the high B and E. And any good guitarist can substitute bends to reach those same notes.
> 
> If one of the most prolific shredders of all time could shred on this, then all excuses are moot. Only 22 frets and a chunky dad-rock heel. (My understanding is he _recorded_ Perpetual Burn and Speed Metal Symphony with the white one)


That white Hurricane is maybe my favourite guitar ever. Does anyone know if they're actually any good? I check eBay and Reverb for them every so often but rarely find anything.


----------



## USMarine75

StevenC said:


> That white Hurricane is maybe my favourite guitar ever. Does anyone know if they're actually any good? I check eBay and Reverb for them every so often but rarely find anything.



You missed out on one for $7,500 (it was a JB charity so for a great cause).

https://reverb.com/item/3506555-jas...itar-hurricane-ltd-for-charity?show_sold=true

I've never played one so I cant say. But when they do pop up they're not terribly expensive so worth taking the chance IMO.


----------



## Mathemagician

MASS DEFECT said:


> I actually think PRS aesthetic points diminish with every dent and scratch. Have you ever seen a relic PRS? A worn PRS that is as beautiful as a worn Gibson LP or Fender? Nope.



Because you’re thinking of pretty figured tops. Imagine a say well worn gold top, different story then imo. Most relic’d Fenders and Gibson’s I’ve seen are either black, white, or like a simple tobacco burst. Not a body that’s flamed maple silver with orange accents, and flamed maple neck.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

USMarine75 said:


> Im just talking shit for funsies. But absolutely agree. I have everything from Mayones to Gibsons. As long as they have a good setup then I'm fine. Richie Kotzen, Andy Wood, Yngwie, Jeff Beck, Nick Johnston, etc all have no issues shredding on Strat and Teles with those large heels and 21-22 frets. EVH only used 22 frets.
> 
> And I agree... very few guitarists shred up to 24 ever. If they do it’s usually only on the high B and E. And any good guitarist can substitute bends to reach those same notes.
> 
> If one of the most prolific shredders of all time could shred on this, then all excuses are moot. Only 22 frets and a chunky dad-rock heel. (My understanding is he _recorded_ Perpetual Burn and Speed Metal Symphony with the white one)



My main reason for primarily using guitars with 24 frets is that I tend to base where my fretting hand goes _relative_ to the 24th fret side marker whenever I'm playing up above the 17th fret or so. It takes me a minute to adjust my mental "fulcrum" when I play guitars with 21 or 22 frets. That said, I don't do a whole lot of shredding to begin with  

As for the fret access comments, I agree with most people here who say it's overemphasized a lot. It matters to a degree, but not to the Rusty Cooley degree  I'm fine with the block heel on my Tele, though I do have some issues on full-thickness Les Paul style guitars. My ESP M-1 is an absolute dream for fret access, though


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The B.C. Rich Draco was an awesome guitar as long as you have the look for it.


----------



## sirbuh

StevenC said:


> That white Hurricane is maybe my favourite guitar ever. Does anyone know if they're actually any good? I check eBay and Reverb for them every so often but rarely find anything.



From what I can tell after digging into the JB forum posts, nothing notable hence the price.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Get a V if fret access is that much of an issue.


----------



## Matt08642

Cynicanal said:


> Chugging open power chords is actually one of the most useful things someone can do in a demo, IMO. Everything sounds the same when playing widdly widdly leads; big, held chords and palm-mutes are where you really hear what something sounds like.



Right, and it's cool if that's part of what someone plays, but I'm more wary of the overall lack of experience and technique a lot of "Review channel" people present which leads them to _only_ play stuff like that. Often paired with some pre-configured software plugin/AFX Preset/Kemper profile, singing the praises of the 45th pickup they've put in the guitar since they bought it 4 months ago (then it's gone in the next video for some bogus reason like "I just didn't get along with the purpleheart strips in the neck, everyone knows purpleheart shaves a bit off the 10.7KHz range")

Basically the culture of the very gear forums I visit irritates me 

Well, that and I think I dug a hole by saying "Just plays 0 0 0 0 0" since it wasn't really what I intended from the first message


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Cynicanal said:


> Chugging open power chords is actually one of the most useful things someone can do in a demo, IMO. Everything sounds the same when playing widdly widdly leads; big, held chords and palm-mutes are where you really hear what something sounds like.








People gave shit to Ola back in the day (and still do  ) because all he'd do is chuggachugga chunk chunk and power chords. But (at the time) that was WAY better than everyone using shitty phone camera recordings trying to play either '80s lead, jazz fusion, or blues box licks on a TriAxis to show off "metal tones.


----------



## Choop

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Get a V if fret access is that much of an issue.



Depends on the V. The fret access on my V is maybe the worst of all my guitars XD though the Explorer isn't great either.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Choop said:


> Depends on the V. The fret access on my V is maybe the worst of all my guitars XD though the Explorer isn't great either.



What the hell kind of V do you have that fret access is a problem?


----------



## Choop

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> What the hell kind of V do you have that fret access is a problem?



It's a Gibson V. The fretboard sits over the body a bit deep and the back doesn't taper in like a Jackson to compensate, but at least your hand doesn't run into any horns like on the Explorer. Most V's aren't too bad, but I feel like it's a misconception that they all have godly upper fret access. Some of the older ESP Alexi V's had the same problem--I used to have the early run Alexi 600, and it got chunky toward the last few frets. Pretty sure that was changed later on those.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> People gave shit to Ola back in the day (and still do  ) because all he'd do is chuggachugga chunk chunk and power chords. But (at the time) that was WAY better than everyone using shitty phone camera recordings trying to play either '80s lead, jazz fusion, or blues box licks on a TriAxis to show off "metal tones.



Reason I follow Killertonetexas Jason on Youtube, too. Gives me a better idea of how amps sound in a context that I tend to use.


----------



## budda

MASS DEFECT said:


> I actually think PRS aesthetic points diminish with every dent and scratch. Have you ever seen a relic PRS? A worn PRS that is as beautiful as a worn Gibson LP or Fender? Nope.



Yes and it's in my basement.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Choop said:


> It's a Gibson V. The fretboard sits over the body a bit deep and the back doesn't taper in like a Jackson to compensate, but at least your hand doesn't run into any horns like on the Explorer. Most V's aren't too bad, but I feel like it's a misconception that they all have godly upper fret access. Some of the older ESP Alexi V's had the same problem--I used to have the early run Alexi 600, and it got chunky toward the last few frets. Pretty sure that was changed later on those.



Welp....Play Authentic...


----------



## Science_Penguin

MASS DEFECT said:


> I actually think PRS aesthetic points diminish with every dent and scratch. Have you ever seen a relic PRS? A worn PRS that is as beautiful as a worn Gibson LP or Fender? Nope.



Come to think of it, how many guitars can you name besides Gibson and Fender that actually look good worn?

I'm struggling to think of any.


----------



## budda

Science_Penguin said:


> Come to think of it, how many guitars can you name besides Gibson and Fender that actually look good worn?
> 
> I'm struggling to think of any.



Anything with a similar body shape.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Science_Penguin said:


> Come to think of it, how many guitars can you name besides Gibson and Fender that actually look good worn?
> 
> I'm struggling to think of any.



Most Superstrats except the ultra modern ones like Solars or Ibanez. Basically if they look like a classic Soloist or a Charvel hotrod, they should look great worn.


----------



## Emperoff

Matt08642 said:


> It's also staggering how poorly a lot of people play considering the gear they have. Not that certain gear makes you better, or you don't "deserve" better gear even if you're terrible, but it worries me seeing a "review" for a $6000 instrument talking about all these subtleties and then when they start playing it looks like they've never held a pick before, or just chug 0 0 0 0 0 0 and talk about how the burl "really tightens up the low end while keeping things dynamic"
> 
> The worrisome part is that people might associate the person owning very expensive gear with having a "more valid" perspective than someone else, when the person doing the review is still very much learning what they want/what's "good" to them



Tell me you've seen that YouTube video where a guy compares 21 high dollar guitars. 45 minutes of video with the same two riffs over and over 

How many burls can you find?


----------



## jco5055

Emperoff said:


> Tell me you've seen that YouTube video where a guy compares 21 high dollar guitars. 45 minutes of video with the same two riffs over and over
> 
> How many burls can you find?




Does this guy live in Chicago? Only asking because (and not to change subjects) on the Chicago craigslist a dude is selling almost $70,000 of high-end guitars, 22 in total, including Viks, Barlows, Aristides, Skervesen etc


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> Tell me you've seen that YouTube video where a guy compares 21 high dollar guitars. 45 minutes of video with the same two riffs over and over
> 
> How many burls can you find?




Never seen this before but it's not the worst of what I was thinking - Insane amount of instruments and meme guitars there though. It's like when you chop a tree down and count the rings, you can see the SSO/forum fad rings in this video


----------



## Alex79

GunpointMetal said:


> This is what happens when everyone thinks they need to turn every hobby/interest into a hustle. We have enough YouTube and IG guitarists/gear reviewers trying to get enough views to monetize their content.



Plus their reviews have to be positive, cause otherwise they don’t get stuff sent to review anymore.
You can basically chuck 90% of the reviews on well known YouTube channels in the bin. Go through the video channels of Phillip McNight, Ola, Rabea, the guy with the beard, Pete Thorn & try to find a “negative review”. Just a coincidence? Is all the new gear so awesome? I think Eytsh Pi is the only one where I came across some negative comments (some TC Electronic pedals) , and he’s basically on Thomann’s payroll.


----------



## USMarine75

Emperoff said:


> Tell me you've seen that YouTube video where a guy compares 21 high dollar guitars. 45 minutes of video with the same two riffs over and over
> 
> How many burls can you find?




It could be worse... I was interested in buying this amp from this guy, but the video is just wow.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Alex79 said:


> Plus their reviews have to be positive, cause otherwise they don’t get stuff sent to review anymore.
> You can basically chuck 90% of the reviews on well known YouTube channels in the bin. Go through the video channels of Phillip McNight, Ola, Rabea, the guy with the beard, Pete Thorn & try to find a “negative review”. Just a coincidence? Is all the new gear so awesome? I think Eytsh Pi is the only one where I came across some negative comments (some TC Electronic pedals) , and he’s basically on Thomann’s payroll.



"What's up guys? Today I have a new ALex79 post to review. This is thing has sentences, punctuation and a really sweet set of parentheses with option quotation marks effect. Let's run through the features....[plays a full backing track, fully processed, maybe even gains it out using the clean channel and a modeller]. Well hell, this thing is a super nice addition to the line up. Thanks to the guys at SSO for sending me this brand new post. Like and subscribe and merch link is below"


----------



## Mathemagician

Alex79 said:


> Plus their reviews have to be positive, cause otherwise they don’t get stuff sent to review anymore.
> You can basically chuck 90% of the reviews on well known YouTube channels in the bin. Go through the video channels of Phillip McNight, Ola, Rabea, the guy with the beard, Pete Thorn & try to find a “negative review”. Just a coincidence? Is all the new gear so awesome? I think Eytsh Pi is the only one where I came across some negative comments (some TC Electronic pedals) , and he’s basically on Thomann’s payroll.



Arnold plays guitar is one who seems pretty fair in what I’ve seen. Because he basically only reviews stuff he’s bought (so not a new thing every day/week). His legator review was the most scathing thing I’d seen and cleared up any questions most people have about both QC & Customer Service (read: none to both).


----------



## USMarine75

Alex79 said:


> Plus their reviews have to be positive, cause otherwise they don’t get stuff sent to review anymore.
> You can basically chuck 90% of the reviews on well known YouTube channels in the bin. Go through the video channels of Phillip McNight, Ola, Rabea, the guy with the beard, Pete Thorn & try to find a “negative review”. Just a coincidence? Is all the new gear so awesome? I think Eytsh Pi is the only one where I came across some negative comments (some TC Electronic pedals) , and he’s basically on Thomann’s payroll.



Lee Anderton trashes stuff... including stuff he sells 

Pete Thorn has been honest about his philosophy. He doesn't review stuff he doesn't like. 

And to be fair, these aren't usually reviews, they're demos. So the video is all about maximizing the capabilities of the product, not tearing it down or evaluating it against its peers.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


> Lee Anderton trashes stuff... including stuff he sells



Unless it's the wrong company, then you're forced to delete the video and have people from the company come "help" you re-make the video, but make things sooo much more awkward.


----------



## narad

USMarine75 said:


> It could be worse... I was interested in buying this amp from this guy, but the video is just wow.




Could just be the guitar. I'd need to hear how the amp sounds with 20 other ones first, then decide.


----------



## USMarine75

narad said:


> Could just be the guitar. I'd need to hear how the amp sounds with 20 other ones first, then decide.



All his vids are painful and he's just whacking away at the strings without much of a concept of chords and scales lol.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Unless it's the wrong company, then you're forced to delete the video and have people from the company come "help" you re-make the video, but make things sooo much more awkward.



Link please


----------



## oneblackened

USMarine75 said:


> Link please


Anderton's with the Mesa cab clone.


----------



## prlgmnr

USMarine75 said:


> It could be worse... I was interested in buying this amp from this guy, but the video is just wow.



I am fucking _crying_ with laughter at the muttering between 1:50 and 2:05


----------



## USMarine75

oneblackened said:


> Anderton's with the Mesa cab clone.



I will def check out.

I'm surprised Fender and Marshall being as large as they are haven't told him to play nicer. IIRC it was the Marshall 5w amp and he strummed a chord and went "next". That's prob about as harsh as you can get whilst still retaining your status as a reseller.


----------



## USMarine75

prlgmnr said:


> I am fucking _crying_ with laughter at the muttering between 1:50 and 2:05



Between that and those magnifying goggles like he just finished microsoldering. I'd give anything if he kept them on the whole time.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


> It could be worse... I was interested in buying this amp from this guy, but the video is just wow.




Oh no baby what is you doin?


----------



## prlgmnr

USMarine75 said:


> Between that and those magnifying goggles like he just finished microsoldering. I'd give anything if he kept them on the whole time.


He should hook up with the guy who makes Phillips Cleartone Conversions


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The Tone King was another who used to be TERRIBLE. I haven't seen his vids in forever but everything he played sounded like Satan throwing up in a malfunctioning woodchipper.


----------



## jarledge

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The Tone King was another who used to be TERRIBLE. I haven't seen his vids in forever but everything he played sounded like Satan throwing up in a malfunctioning woodchipper.



yeah, i am not sure how he ever got popular. He just seemed like some dude who already had enough money to just buy whatever and start making videos. 

I don't think this is unpopular, but Paul from guitarworld was the fucking worst reviewer of the youtube generation. "This is a brutal metal amp, but I am going to spend 90% of the video on the clean and low gain settings with a strat in standard......" not that isn't cool to know but review the amp based on it's intended audience. I am not going to buy a 6505 for it's cleans or fender hot rod delux based on it's distortion.


----------



## USMarine75

jarledge said:


> yeah, i am not sure how he ever got popular. He just seemed like some dude who already had enough money to just buy whatever and start making videos.
> 
> I don't think this is unpopular, but Paul from guitarworld was the fucking worst reviewer of the youtube generation. "This is a brutal metal amp, but I am going to spend 90% of the video on the clean and low gain settings with a strat in standard......" not that isn't cool to know but review the amp based on it's intended audience. I am not going to buy a 6505 for it's cleans or fender hot rod delux based on it's distortion.



Paul Riario was a super nice guy, just horribly miscast.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


> I will def check out.
> 
> I'm surprised Fender and Marshall being as large as they are haven't told him to play nicer. IIRC it was the Marshall 5w amp and he strummed a chord and went "next". That's prob about as harsh as you can get whilst still retaining your status as a reseller.



Probably because it was a crappy 5w amp.  With the Cabclone, you're dealing with one of the company's flagship products. 



jarledge said:


> yeah, i am not sure how he ever got popular. He just seemed like some dude who already had enough money to just buy whatever and start making videos.
> 
> I don't think this is unpopular, but Paul from guitarworld was the fucking worst reviewer of the youtube generation. "This is a brutal metal amp, but I am going to spend 90% of the video on the clean and low gain settings with a strat in standard......" not that isn't cool to know but review the amp based on it's intended audience. I am not going to buy a 6505 for it's cleans or fender hot rod delux based on it's distortion.



First part; Tone King was one of THE first dude who made his channel about reviewing gear. Started back in like 2007 - 2008? Also dude had a SHIT ton of gear and apparently a shit-ton of money.

Second part; I agree with above. It's not his fault Guitar World decided to use a rock/blues player to review *ALL* of their gear.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


> Paul Riario was a super nice guy, just horribly miscast.



I liked Paul. I remember everyone HATED him but hey he did the best he could. I couldn't be mad at the rat faced wimp. I enjoyed his vids


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Alex79 said:


> Plus their reviews have to be positive, cause otherwise they don’t get stuff sent to review anymore.
> You can basically chuck 90% of the reviews on well known YouTube channels in the bin. Go through the video channels of Phillip McNight, Ola, Rabea, the guy with the beard, Pete Thorn & try to find a “negative review”. Just a coincidence? Is all the new gear so awesome? I think Eytsh Pi is the only one where I came across some negative comments (some TC Electronic pedals) , and he’s basically on Thomann’s payroll.


Pauly got in some hot water for basically pointing out a bunch of shit to a company that shouldn't need to have it pointed out to them.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The Tone King was another who used to be TERRIBLE. I haven't seen his vids in forever but everything he played sounded like Satan throwing up in a malfunctioning woodchipper.


He now uses cab sims and sounds much better. His playing still is what it is, though.


----------



## Alex79

USMarine75 said:


> Lee Anderton trashes stuff... including stuff he sells




Quite literally.


----------



## Cynicanal

Alex79 said:


> Plus their reviews have to be positive, cause otherwise they don’t get stuff sent to review anymore.
> You can basically chuck 90% of the reviews on well known YouTube channels in the bin. Go through the video channels of Phillip McNight, Ola, Rabea, the guy with the beard, Pete Thorn & try to find a “negative review”. Just a coincidence? Is all the new gear so awesome? I think Eytsh Pi is the only one where I came across some negative comments (some TC Electronic pedals) , and he’s basically on Thomann’s payroll.


Philip McKnight said some negative stuff about the Chapman Ghost Fret that he reviewed. It was couched in "well... it's what you'd expect for a $400 guitar" kind of language, but he made it pretty clear that he wasn't impressed with it overall.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Pauly got in some hot water for basically pointing out a bunch of shit to a company that shouldn't need to have it pointed out to them.



Oh great what did I miss?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Oh great what did I miss?


He did a review of that Black Spirit 200 floor amp and pointed out a bunch of shit that H&K should've done. Apparently he didn't take it "seriously" enough, and had to record a response video to comments.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He did a review of that Black Spirit 200 floor amp and pointed out a bunch of shit that H&K should've done. Apparently he didn't take it "seriously" enough, and had to record a response video to comments.



Okay I'm not surprised there. H&K has gone fucking deep into the Youtube/internet/instagram advertising so I'm sure they watch that shit like a hawk.


----------



## BenjaminW

USMarine75 said:


> Lee Anderton trashes stuff... including stuff he sells


I've heard of The Captain, but not Lee Anderton. Is he that guy that's always with Rob Chapman or Danish Pete every time I see an Andertons video?


----------



## rokket2005

Rob Chapman? You mean the Monkeylord?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Okay I'm not surprised there. H&K has gone fucking deep into the Youtube/internet/instagram advertising so I'm sure they watch that shit like a hawk.


The viewers were the reason for the video if memory serves.


----------



## MFB

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The viewers were the reason for the video if memory serves.



Is that the German dude who got a bunch of people saying he was being paid for the review? And then when he was like "obviously I'm being paid for this review, but I'm still giving a fair review of the product" and then people criticize him for being honest about being paid? Or something thereabouts.


----------



## SexHaver420

I have a new fun unpopular opinion.

Wood is a fucking awful material to build guitars out of. I have a few guitars I have to set up a few times a year depending on temperature changes. Vigiers don't even have a truss rod and I saw a video of a guy putting the neck in a sauna and a freezer and afterwards it was still within factory specs.

I've played multiple magnesium/aluminum/composite body guitars. I've also played a few with aluminum/composite necks and they're so much better. Aluminum especially. It has so much more tonal range as long as you allow it to warm up to the temperature of the room.

I also have a guitar where the body is made out of recycled plastic that has been melted down into a mold and it sounds and feels and sounds every bit as good as my Gibson SG with P90s.

Edit: Carbon fiber is awesome and more guitars need made out of it.

Edit 2: People should build guitars out of laminated bamboo because it grows super fast and is really strong and cheap.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

That thing looks like someone forgot to toss the guitar into a dumpster after forcibly aborting it.


----------



## SexHaver420

Normally I'd be mad and talk shit but you like Loudness so you have good taste.

Plastic is cool because you can swirl and give it any color you want though.


----------



## Mathemagician

SexHaver420 said:


> I have a new fun unpopular opinion.
> 
> Wood is a fucking awful material to build guitars out of. I have a few guitars I have to set up a few times a year depending on temperature changes. Vigiers don't even have a truss rod and I saw a video of a guy putting the neck in a sauna and a freezer and afterwards it was still within factory specs.
> 
> I've played multiple magnesium/aluminum/composite body guitars. I've also played a few with aluminum/composite necks and they're so much better. Aluminum especially. It has so much more tonal range as long as you allow it to warm up to the temperature of the room.
> 
> I also have a guitar where the body is made out of recycled plastic that has been melted down into a mold and it sounds and feels and sounds every bit as good as my Gibson SG with P90s.
> 
> Edit: Carbon fiber is awesome and more guitars need made out of it.
> 
> Edit 2: People should build guitars out of laminated bamboo because it grows super fast and is really strong and cheap.



I agree with everything you said. But I just want to be clear that that guitar has a look only a CNC machine could love. 

That said the color/swirl works.


----------



## SexHaver420

Mathemagician said:


> I agree with everything you said. But I just want to be clear that that guitar has a look only a CNC machine could love.
> 
> That said the color/swirl works.



I just got it because my friend has been experimenting with making guitars out of plastic and I wanted to help him out and test them.


----------



## USMarine75

BenjaminW said:


> I've heard of The Captain, but not Lee Anderton. Is he that guy that's always with Rob Chapman or Danish Pete every time I see an Andertons video?



Yeah, he's in all the vids. The Captain is Lee Anderton the owner.

Then there's Danish Pete (Pete Honore), Rob Chapman (Chappers, Monkey Lord, D-bag), and of course the SSO fav Rabea Massad. I know Pete works there, and the rest are just friends IIRC.



Cynicanal said:


> Philip McKnight said some negative stuff about the Chapman Ghost Fret that he reviewed. It was couched in "well... it's what you'd expect for a $400 guitar" kind of language, but he made it pretty clear that he wasn't impressed with it overall.



Did you ever watch the McKnight vs The Guitologist flame war? I'm not convinced they didn't agree to it just to boost eachother's channels lol.



MFB said:


> Is that the German dude who got a bunch of people saying he was being paid for the review? And then when he was like "obviously I'm being paid for this review, but I'm still giving a fair review of the product" and then people criticize him for being honest about being paid? Or something thereabouts.



Hey, Hans Gruber sold me some good pedals cheap so I have nothing but love for him.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> I have a new fun unpopular opinion.
> 
> Wood is a fucking awful material to build guitars out of. I have a few guitars I have to set up a few times a year depending on temperature changes. Vigiers don't even have a truss rod and I saw a video of a guy putting the neck in a sauna and a freezer and afterwards it was still within factory specs.
> 
> I've played multiple magnesium/aluminum/composite body guitars. I've also played a few with aluminum/composite necks and they're so much better. Aluminum especially. It has so much more tonal range as long as you allow it to warm up to the temperature of the room.
> 
> I also have a guitar where the body is made out of recycled plastic that has been melted down into a mold and it sounds and feels and sounds every bit as good as my Gibson SG with P90s.
> 
> Edit: Carbon fiber is awesome and more guitars need made out of it.
> 
> Edit 2: People should build guitars out of laminated bamboo because it grows super fast and is really strong and cheap.



I agree with all of this but that V looks like its parents are siblings.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ugly guita


----------



## BenjaminW

USMarine75 said:


> Yeah, he's in all the vids. The Captain is Lee Anderton the owner. Then there's Danish Pete (Pete Honore), Rob Chapman (Chappers, Monkey Lord, D-bag), and of course the SSO fav Rabea Massad. I know Pete works there, and the rest are just friends IIRC.


Ah, thank you!

Please know that I wasn't being serious about not knowing who the guys at Andertons were


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Ugly guita



The fuck happened here? :LOL:

But yeah, I'm all for entirely-manmade guitars. No ounce of wood. Plastic/metal bodies and necks, phenolic/ebanol fretboards, no truss rod adjustments.


----------



## Seabeast2000

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The fuck happened here? :LOL:
> 
> But yeah, I'm all for entirely-manmade guitars. No ounce of wood. Plastic/metal bodies and necks, phenolic/ebanol fretboards, no truss rod adjustments.



Agree but need a 12AX7 in it for warmth.


----------



## Necky379

EMG’s don’t “make guitars all sound the same”

81’s and Invaders are what happen when you develop the best metal pickup.


----------



## Emperoff

Active pickup haters: "They suck, no dynamics, too compressed".

Same people: (Inserts a dimed boost before the amp) "OMG the toanz, so organic".


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

9v+ improves an EMG, including their accessories (AB, PA2, ABQ, etc.)


----------



## Emperoff

Spaced Out Ace said:


> 9v+ improves an EMG, including their accessories (AB, PA2, ABQ, etc.)



That's not unpopular, that's a fact. Unless you enjoy clipping, that is.

I recall EMG BTC manual recommending 18V if boosting frequencies (which is part of the job of an EQ) and you can really tell if you push it with 9V.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I just hate how every guitar made out of "not wood" has to look like a fucking alien spaceship.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> That's not unpopular, that's a fact. Unless you enjoy clipping, that is.
> 
> I recall EMG BTC manual recommending 18V if boosting frequencies (which is part of the job of an EQ) and you can really tell if you push it with 9V.


The Seymour Duncan Livewires required 18v (supposedly, though I wouldn't be surprised if they worked at 9v too) and I think the EMGs should be 18v required. I run mine with that 24v mod. I believe active EQs have to have 18v or something. Pedals that do that tend to double the voltage.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The Seymour Duncan Livewires required 18v (supposedly, though I wouldn't be surprised if they worked at 9v too) and I think the EMGs should be 18v required. I run mine with that 24v mod. I believe active EQs have to have 18v or something. Pedals that do that tend to double the voltage.



It took them decades, but I think everything new since the X-series runs with 18v preamps, the only exception being some signature sets (GTVs, Bonebreakers, some of the repackaged sets like the GH sets).


----------



## Carl Kolchak

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just hate how every guitar made out of "not wood" has to look like a fucking alien spaceship.


Aristides?
Electrical Guitar Company?
Aluminati?


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Cynicanal said:


> Philip McKnight said some negative stuff about the Chapman Ghost Fret that he reviewed. It was couched in "well... it's what you'd expect for a $400 guitar" kind of language, but he made it pretty clear that he wasn't impressed with it overall.


He was also quite vocal about his dislike of Lace Pickups as well.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It took them decades, but I think everything new since the X-series runs with 18v preamps, the only exception being some signature sets (GTVs, Bonebreakers, some of the repackaged sets like the GH sets).


Which is an option. Doubling the voltage definitely helps. I'm kind of tempted to try Blackouts (AHB-1) but probably not going to bother.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Which is an option. Doubling the voltage definitely helps. I'm kind of tempted to try Blackouts (AHB-1) but probably not going to bother.



I just refuse to believe that anything can help the EMG 81. I fucking hate that thing


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It took them decades, but I think everything new since the X-series runs with 18v preamps, the only exception being some signature sets (GTVs, Bonebreakers, some of the repackaged sets like the GH sets).


The 81TW I got recently definitely does not sound like the 81s I remember from years ago. Reminds me more of how the 81 sounded at 18V.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> The 81TW I got recently definitely does not sound like the 81s I remember from years ago. Reminds me more of how the 81 sounded at 18V.



I think the 81TW sounds a bit different than the stock 81 anyway.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just hate how every guitar made out of "not wood" has to look like a fucking alien spaceship.



Traditional shapes out of the bamboo laminates. I am in.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Carl Kolchak said:


> Aristides?
> Electrical Guitar Company?
> Aluminati?



Exactly, no one makes just a plain Strat/Super Strat shape, it's all either stuff with weird superfluous cuts and divots or neo-vintage. There's pretty much no middle ground.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I don't wanna start a new thread for this, and it isn't really an unpopular gear opinion.

However, I am curious when Eddie Van Halen decided to use a variac. I am curious if it was after hearing about Tom Scholz "Mars..." rig and the power soak that Tom designed.


----------



## Science_Penguin

SexHaver420 said:


> I have a new fun unpopular opinion.
> 
> Wood is a fucking awful material to build guitars out of. I have a few guitars I have to set up a few times a year depending on temperature changes. Vigiers don't even have a truss rod and I saw a video of a guy putting the neck in a sauna and a freezer and afterwards it was still within factory specs.
> 
> I've played multiple magnesium/aluminum/composite body guitars. I've also played a few with aluminum/composite necks and they're so much better. Aluminum especially. It has so much more tonal range as long as you allow it to warm up to the temperature of the room.
> 
> I also have a guitar where the body is made out of recycled plastic that has been melted down into a mold and it sounds and feels and sounds every bit as good as my Gibson SG with P90s.
> 
> Edit: Carbon fiber is awesome and more guitars need made out of it.
> 
> Edit 2: People should build guitars out of laminated bamboo because it grows super fast and is really strong and cheap.



Don't suppose Aristides R&D has a kickstarter going, eh?

I can't afford their guitars, but I could see myself tossing some money their way if they promise to do more research into alternative guitar materials.


----------



## Descent

SexHaver420 said:


> I want my amp to have enough low mids that it feels like I'm being punched in the chest when I crank it



That's called a kick drum I think


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Science_Penguin said:


> Don't suppose Aristides R&D has a kickstarter going, eh?
> 
> I can't afford their guitars, but I could see myself tossing some money their way if they promise to do more research into alternative guitar materials.



You could probably send them cash, I doubt they'd turn you down. 

That said, it seems like the focus of the business is making use of the existing (since the 90's) Arium base and Richlite (another material that's been around for awhile) to make different configurations vs. researching different materials to use.


----------



## prlgmnr

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I don't wanna start a new thread for this, and it isn't really an unpopular gear opinion.
> 
> However, I am curious when Eddie Van Halen decided to use a variac. I am curious if it was after hearing about Tom Scholz "Mars..." rig and the power soak that Tom designed.



I think he used a variac because he had a british voltage amp and needed something to run it at US voltage and there was a variac handy. Once that was there I'm sure they fucked about with it at different voltages to see what it did to the tone.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

MaxOfMetal said:


> Exactly, no one makes just a plain Strat/Super Strat shape, it's all either stuff with weird superfluous cuts and divots or neo-vintage. There's pretty much no middle ground.



Ibanez tried it with their ‘luthite’ material 20 years ago. The 10th anniversary chromeboys and the ergodyne series guitars were ‘not wood’. Some say that luthite is sawdust in resin, so who knows if that’s wood or not


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Ibanez tried it with their ‘luthite’ material 20 years ago. The 10th anniversary chromeboys and the ergodyne series guitars were ‘not wood’. Some say that luthite is sawdust in resin, so who knows if that’s wood or not



I currently have my bassist's ergodyne bass..the thing weighs a metric ton.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Ibanez tried it with their ‘luthite’ material 20 years ago. The 10th anniversary chromeboys and the ergodyne series guitars were ‘not wood’. Some say that luthite is sawdust in resin, so who knows if that’s wood or not



I still have an old Ergodyne bass. Cool stuff. 

I also miss my old Modulus Strat and Genesis J-Bass.

It's just no one is doing that stuff now. 

It's kind of funny, folks look at Aristides and remark on how futuristic they are, when I feel the application of modern marierals in something like a Vigier is significant more advanced and compelling.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

prlgmnr said:


> I think he used a variac because he had a british voltage amp and needed something to run it at US voltage and there was a variac handy. Once that was there I'm sure they fucked about with it at different voltages to see what it did to the tone.


The story goes that he hooked it up to the dimmer in his house, and later bought a variac after asking for something like a heavy duty dimmer. Also you're only partially correct.

"_I used to work at a music store delivering pianos and organs and one day a Marshall amp comes in and I’d only seen pictures of these, only Eric Clapton and God’s play these! I said I gotta have that amp, and so I worked all summer to buy that amp and we were already too loud as it was and now I had a 100-watt Marshall! It was so dam loud I did everything from facing it backwards to facing it down to the floor … I was just too damn loud! 

"So I saw an ad in the paper for another Marshall amp and thought “maybe this one will be different.” Well, it certainly was cuz when it showed up, I plugged it in and it didn’t work … but, I left it on and what I didn’t realize was this thing was from England and it was 220-volt, and I plugged it in and I didn’t look at the back and see it was set on 220; it took a long time for it to warm up at half voltage, and when I picked up my guitar I was like “it sounds incredible!” … but incredibly quiet. 

"It dawned on me “I could control the volume of the amp with the voltage, so I proceeded to hook it onto the light dimmer of the house, and blew it out and so on. So finally I went to this place called Dial Radio and asked “do you have any kind of like an industrial variable voltage transformer that I can use like a light dimmer” and he said “yea I got this thing called a Variac”, I said “ok cool.” 

"and I take it home and plug the amp into it and I’d lower the voltage from like 110 slowly down to 100 and ... the lowest I ever went was like 60. Depending on the room we were playing I’d set it anywhere between 60 and 100 because the only way the amp sounded good was with everything all the way up, so that became my volume knob. If we were playing little bars I’d set it to like 60 volts; somewhere a little bit bigger I’d crank it to 80 and for recording the sweet spot seemed to be 89-volts._"

I will say that I question the story, somewhat, because I could've swore he bought one of his Marshalls (maybe the third one? I dunno) from a local club. Maybe somewhere like Madame Wong's or something. That said, a parts guitar, a PAF pickup at a cocked angle, one of those Marshalls hooked to a variac, with some 20w Greenbacks and some weird JBLs are the secret to his tone.

EDIT: Apparently one of the Marshalls he owned was a "house amp" from The Rose Palace, though most people seem to think it was one of the more popular places like Gazzari's.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

MaxOfMetal said:


> You could probably send them cash, I doubt they'd turn you down.
> 
> That said, it seems like the focus of the business is making use of the existing (since the 90's) Arium base and Richlite (another material that's been around for awhile) to make different configurations vs. researching different materials to use.



Maybe you have some insight into this, but I never understood why alternative material-made guitars have to be priced so dramatically more expensively than their wooden counterparts?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Carl Kolchak said:


> Maybe you have some insight into this, but I never understood why alternative material-made guitars have to be priced so dramatically more expensively than their wooden counterparts?



Wood is very cheap, and very easy to work with. 

Stuff like carbon fiber, baked composites, and aluminum are more expensive to process into large, structural guitar parts. 

They're also built far more infrequently in small boutique shops, so you lose some economy of scale. 

That said, there are plenty of very expensive wooden guitars, so there are plenty of factors outside raw materials as well.


----------



## Adieu

Carl Kolchak said:


> Maybe you have some insight into this, but I never understood why alternative material-made guitars have to be priced so dramatically more expensively than their wooden counterparts?



Electric guitar bodies are essentially furniture technology finished with car paint.

Also, alder maple poplar pine and walnut are literally in almost every store in america.... basswood is more of an asia thing, ash is less common, and rosewood and ebony are getting rare, but still...

The genius of the original Leo Fender design is that it sourced readily available of-the-shelf sh!t and used existing skillsets in the labor force. With widely available and affordable equipment and materials.

Alternative materials.... means you actually have to train people and buy equipment.


----------



## efiltsohg

USMarine75 said:


> All his vids are painful and he's just whacking away at the strings without much of a concept of chords and scales lol.




this guy has really stumbled on some brilliant comedy


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think the 81TW sounds a bit different than the stock 81 anyway.


This is the first time I have ran across the 81TW and 89R. Not that they are bad, but just definitely different than I remember years ago using the 81/85 in the past. Much darker, bassier, lower output, etc.... Wondering if I should throw an old 81 to check it out, or just roll with it. Or do something totally different, like try out the 57/66 set.


----------



## Adieu

Shask said:


> This is the first time I have ran across the 81TW and 89R. Not that they are bad, but just definitely different than I remember years ago using the 81/85 in the past. Much darker, bassier, lower output, etc.... Wondering if I should throw an old 81 to check it out, or just roll with it. Or do something totally different, like try out the 57/66 set.



Fishmans, Blackouts, or Xseries imho


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> This is the first time I have ran across the 81TW and 89R. Not that they are bad, but just definitely different than I remember years ago using the 81/85 in the past. Much darker, bassier, lower output, etc.... Wondering if I should throw an old 81 to check it out, or just roll with it. Or do something totally different, like try out the 57/66 set.



I WILL admit I've been trying some more recent EMGs and thinking they sound... different. Not sure if it's the guitars themselves or the pickups. I may eventually have to do some comparisons since I have several guitars loaded with the old-school EMGs, vs the ones with the new logo. 

But yeah, FWIW, I've seen comparisons of the two and the 81TW does sound darker.


----------



## Shask

Adieu said:


> Fishmans, Blackouts, or Xseries imho


I have Fishman Moderns in a different guitar, and had Blackouts several years ago. Specifically bought this guitar to be my "EMG Guitar".


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I WILL admit I've been trying some more recent EMGs and thinking they sound... different. Not sure if it's the guitars themselves or the pickups. I may eventually have to do some comparisons since I have several guitars loaded with the old-school EMGs, vs the ones with the new logo.
> 
> But yeah, FWIW, I've seen comparisons of the two and the 81TW does sound darker.



I used the 81/85 for years. Did all the mods, several guitars, etc,... so I know that sound well, lol. I went passive for several years though, and recently bought a Schecter Hellraiser to be my "EMG Guitar" because I kind of missed that tone. It has the 81TW and 89R, and it is definitely different. I didn't even realize EMG had new variations, lol.

You can hear it in that video The 81TW almost sounds like an 81/85 mix, or closer to how the old 81 sounded at 18v or 27v. Lower output, more bass, more lower mids, less aggressive upper mids. I DO have it in an all Mahogany guitar that can be dark, so obviously that contributes, but it is definitely different than what I remember. I have an old 81/85 laying around from years ago. I would pop them in to compare, but the connectors are different.


----------



## prlgmnr

efiltsohg said:


> this guy has really stumbled on some brilliant comedy


I'm struggling to explain to my wife why I find this guy mumbling so completely hillarious.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> I used the 81/85 for years. Did all the mods, several guitars, etc,... so I know that sound well, lol. I went passive for several years though, and recently bought a Schecter Hellraiser to be my "EMG Guitar" because I kind of missed that tone. It has the 81TW and 89R, and it is definitely different. I didn't even realize EMG had new variations, lol.
> 
> You can hear it in that video The 81TW almost sounds like an 81/85 mix, or closer to how the old 81 sounded at 18v or 27v. Lower output, more bass, more lower mids, less aggressive upper mids. I DO have it in an all Mahogany guitar that can be dark, so obviously that contributes, but it is definitely different than what I remember. I have an old 81/85 laying around from years ago. I would pop them in to compare, but the connectors are different.



I meant when they changed from the old, blockier logo and the smoother slightly satin top






To the newer, rounded logo with the more "grainy" slightly metallic cover.






I've seen a couple of people that thought they sounded different. Could be hearsay, could be true. I'd need to put this to the test eventually.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I meant when they changed from the old, blockier logo and the smoother slightly satin top
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the newer, rounded logo with the more "grainy" slightly metallic cover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a couple of people that thought they sounded different. Could be hearsay, could be true. I'd need to put this to the test eventually.


I always thought the quick connect versions sounded different from the original ones you had to solder directly. I had several of those back in the day.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I meant when they changed from the old, blockier logo and the smoother slightly satin top
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the newer, rounded logo with the more "grainy" slightly metallic cover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a couple of people that thought they sounded different. Could be hearsay, could be true. I'd need to put this to the test eventually.


I never knew there were so many variations! I just checked all mine (81TW/89R in guitar, 707s in guitar, and old 81/85 set in a drawer), and they are all block logo ones. I have never seen that pitchfork E style one.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> I always thought the quick connect versions sounded different from the original ones you had to solder directly. I had several of those back in the day.



Well shit I guess I gotta compare that too. 

I will say I currently have 2 guitars with the old-school logos and quick connects, and they sound fucking rude as shit. OTOH I installed a set of EMG 81/60 metalworks (obvs new logo) into a G&L Superhawk and it wasn't as tight or cutting as these 2 guitars. I also used these pickups in a Jackson RR3 which was originally loaded with a DiMarzio TZ/AN set, and honestly the 81 didn't sound much more tighter than the Tone Zone.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well shit I guess I gotta compare that too.
> 
> I will say I currently have 2 guitars with the old-school logos and quick connects, and they sound fucking rude as shit. OTOH I installed a set of EMG 81/60 metalworks (obvs new logo) into a G&L Superhawk and it wasn't as tight or cutting as these 2 guitars. I also used these pickups in a Jackson RR3 which was originally loaded with a DiMarzio TZ/AN set, and honestly the 81 didn't sound much more tighter than the Tone Zone.


I have been playing pickup roulette lately, and just put a stock TZ back in my Charvel, and it made me question why I ever took it out years ago, lol. Sounds razor tight and chunky. Much clearer and tighter than my 81TW or 707. Very "Pull me Under-ish". It actually makes me want to try many more Dimarzios as it has been years since I used them. I have almost ordered some, but they appear to be very behind on orders due to Covid.

There is an unpopular opinion... lol. The Tone Zone is tighter and clearer despite everyone thinking it is a muddy pile.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> Very "Pull me Under-ish".



Probably because that's the pickup Trucci used for I&W.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Probably because that's the pickup Trucci used for I&W.


Yup, which is what made me think of that song. I don't know what was going on 5-8 years ago that made me take that pickup out and try every Duncan in it (Had an Invader the last few years), because it sounds great as-is. I always liked them back in the day also when I had new RG3120s and such.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Shask said:


> I have been playing pickup roulette lately, and just put a stock TZ back in my Charvel, and it made me question why I ever took it out years ago, lol. Sounds razor tight and chunky. Much clearer and tighter than my 81TW or 707. Very "Pull me Under-ish". It actually makes me want to try many more Dimarzios as it has been years since I used them. I have almost ordered some, but they appear to be very behind on orders due to Covid.
> 
> There is an unpopular opinion... lol. The Tone Zone is tighter and clearer despite everyone thinking it is a muddy pile.


Well, it's passive so it depends on the guitar it is being put in.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Shask said:


> There is an unpopular opinion... lol. The Tone Zone is tighter and clearer despite everyone thinking it is a muddy pile.



I didn't realize this was the popular consensus, I think the Tone Zone kicks ass!


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well, it's passive so it depends on the guitar it is being put in.


It has been in and out of the same guitar 3 times now. It was the original stock pickup.


----------



## Shask

Jon Pearson said:


> I didn't realize this was the popular consensus, I think the Tone Zone kicks ass!


Seems like everyone hates them, lol. Too much muddy low end! I need to buy up 5 or 6 of them while everyone still hates them, lol.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Shask said:


> Seems like everyone hates them, lol. Too much muddy low end! I need to buy up 5 or 6 of them while everyone still hates them, lol.



It's funny, the other guitarist in my band has one in a guitar and she keeps waffling on keeping it, I'm trying to convince her to just give it to me


----------



## StevenC

Shask said:


> Seems like everyone hates them, lol. Too much muddy low end! I need to buy up 5 or 6 of them while everyone still hates them, lol.


I wonder if it's a case of people not liking the 7 string version and that perception carrying over.


----------



## Adieu

StevenC said:


> I wonder if it's a case of people not liking the 7 string version and that perception carrying over.



Maybe a basswood RG vs alder superstrat or rhoads vee thing? Somehow iirc DiMarzios were always more popular with the Ibanez crowd

But... Not all pups like all woods


----------



## StevenC

Adieu said:


> Maybe a basswood RG vs alder superstrat or rhoads vee thing? Somehow iirc DiMarzios were always more popular with the Ibanez crowd
> 
> But... Not all pups like all woods


Could be.

On that note, my first actual contribution to this thread: basswood+Dimarzios+Marshalls always sounds bad no matter if it's an Ibanez and Marshall or a TA and Bogner.


----------



## Emperoff

Why is everyone so surprised about the EMG81TW sounding different than the original? The EMG89 doesn't sound like a 85 either and is old as fuck.

EMG Tw/89s don't split coils, they're dual pickups (a humbucker and a single coil inside one housing). Of course they're going to sound different than a full-sized EMG humbuker.


----------



## Shask

Emperoff said:


> Why is everyone so surprised about the EMG81TW sounding different than the original? The EMG89 doesn't sound like a 85 either and is old as fuck.
> 
> EMG Tw/89s don't split coils, they're dual pickups (a humbucker and a single coil inside one housing). Of course they're going to sound different than a full-sized EMG humbuker.


Because the 89 never claimed to be an 85. It has been said to be similar, but it was never claimed that it was an 85 with a single coil mode. The 81TW is marketed as an 81 with a single coil mode, not "kinda 81-like, but with a single coil mode".


----------



## Emperoff

Shask said:


> Because the 89 never claimed to be an 85. It has been said to be similar, but it was never claimed that it was an 85 with a single coil mode. The 81TW is marketed as an 81 with a single coil mode, not "kinda 81-like, but with a single coil mode".



Yet if you know how these work, you know they can't possibly sound the same.


----------



## c7spheres

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I meant when they changed from the old, blockier logo and the smoother slightly satin top
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To the newer, rounded logo with the more "grainy" slightly metallic cover.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen a couple of people that thought they sounded different. Could be hearsay, could be true. I'd need to put this to the test eventually.




I remember when this first happened and reviews started talking about the sound difference fairly quickly. The logo change happened before the quick connect system. When the quick connect system happened there was more talk of the tone changing. 
- Back when Rick was the man at EMG (I don't think he's there any longer) I emailed him about it and talked to Rick and other people there too again when the quick connect system came out. Everyone insisted on nothing but the logo has changed and then again the quick connect system didn't change anything either. 
- I've never had a new logo or quick connect system in my guitars (they're all old logo and soldered) but have have recently tried a buddy's Schecter with 707 new logos, and have also tried two new logo Agile Interceptors with 707's as well. I don't know if they are quick connect systems or not, but they do sound and feel a little different for sure, however I can't say for sure if that's the guitar or the battery life or what that's causing it. 
- I do know that immediately when the new logo's fifrst came out all of a sudden all the specs changed on evey pickup showing the new logo's have more db/headroom and lower noise etc. When I asked Rick about this he said it was due to new testing equipment. I have a hard time believeing that as even old equipment is usually pretty accurate, not normally 10-20 db off or whatever it is. 
- I still have all the old logo spec sheets and can compare them to the new specs sheets too. 
- I firmly believe these "new logo" specs probably have more to do with competing with the better spec'd Blackout pickups that came out around that same time. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some type of component change to make it specout better to compete with Blackouts. I guess the only way to really know is to sacrifice two of the and see what's inside and test them on some scopes or somthing, but I'm not gonna volunteer mine, that's for sure! : )


----------



## Adieu

c7spheres said:


> I remember when this first happened and reviews started talking about the sound difference fairly quickly. The logo change happened before the quick connect system. When the quick connect system happened there was more talk of the tone changing.
> - Back when Rick was the man at EMG (I don't think he's there any longer) I emailed him about it and talked to Rick and other people there too again when the quick connect system came out. Everyone insisted on nothing but the logo has changed and then again the quick connect system didn't change anything either.
> - I've never had a new logo or quick connect system in my guitars (they're all old logo and soldered) but have have recently tried a buddy's Schecter with 707 new logos, and have also tried two new logo Agile Interceptors with 707's as well. I don't know if they are quick connect systems or not, but they do sound and feel a little different for sure, however I can't say for sure if that's the guitar or the battery life or what that's causing it.
> - I do know that immediately when the new logo's fifrst came out all of a sudden all the specs changed on evey pickup showing the new logo's have more db/headroom and lower noise etc. When I asked Rick about this he said it was due to new testing equipment. I have a hard time believeing that as even old equipment is usually pretty accurate, not normally 10-20 db off or whatever it is.
> - I still have all the old logo spec sheets and can compare them to the new specs sheets too.
> - I firmly believe these "new logo" specs probably have more to do with competing with the better spec'd Blackout pickups that came out around that same time. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some type of component change to make it specout better to compete with Blackouts. I guess the only way to really know is to sacrifice two of the and see what's inside and test them on some scopes or somthing, but I'm not gonna volunteer mine, that's for sure! : )



False

I have several old-logo quickconnect pups. And I've had plenty more of em in the past.


----------



## c7spheres

Adieu said:


> False
> 
> I have several old-logo quickconnect pups. And I've had plenty more of em in the past.


 What is false?


----------



## Adieu

c7spheres said:


> What is false?



Logo change happened years and years after quickconnects


----------



## c7spheres

Adieu said:


> Logo change happened years and years after quickconnects


 Huh, My timeline is off. When around did the quick connects come out then? I thought it to be the opposite. Doesn't really matter just curious then.
- Do you find the quick connects affect anything compared to soldered connections?

Edit: from what I can tell the quick connect was introduced in 2009. Not sure when the new logo came about. Certainly long before 2015. I'm thinking at least around 2010 or 2011. Maybe it was all at the same time.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

c7spheres said:


> Huh, My timeline is off. When around did the quick connects come out then? I thought it to be the opposite. Doesn't really matter just curious then.
> - Do you find the quick connects affect anything compared to soldered connections?
> 
> Edit: from what I can tell the quick connect was introduced in 2009. Not sure when the new logo came about. Certainly long before 2015. I'm thinking at least around 2010 or 2011. Maybe it was all at the same time.



The quick connect (to the pickups) was introduced around 2001 - 2002.

This is what we mean.






This is how they used to look






The solderless system (what you're thinking of) was introduced around 2009. That was around the same time that EMG changed the looks of their pickups (new logo, different covers) AND introduced the X series.

Also IIRC, if a guitar comes STOCK with EMGs, they're going to be all soldered. Even guitars made in the year of our lord 2020. The quick-connect system is only available for aftermarket pickups.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

c7spheres said:


> I remember when this first happened and reviews started talking about the sound difference fairly quickly. The logo change happened before the quick connect system. When the quick connect system happened there was more talk of the tone changing.
> - Back when Rick was the man at EMG (I don't think he's there any longer) I emailed him about it and talked to Rick and other people there too again when the quick connect system came out. Everyone insisted on nothing but the logo has changed and then again the quick connect system didn't change anything either.
> - I've never had a new logo or quick connect system in my guitars (they're all old logo and soldered) but have have recently tried a buddy's Schecter with 707 new logos, and have also tried two new logo Agile Interceptors with 707's as well. I don't know if they are quick connect systems or not, but they do sound and feel a little different for sure, however I can't say for sure if that's the guitar or the battery life or what that's causing it.
> - I do know that immediately when the new logo's fifrst came out all of a sudden all the specs changed on evey pickup showing the new logo's have more db/headroom and lower noise etc. When I asked Rick about this he said it was due to new testing equipment. I have a hard time believeing that as even old equipment is usually pretty accurate, not normally 10-20 db off or whatever it is.
> - I still have all the old logo spec sheets and can compare them to the new specs sheets too.
> - I firmly believe these "new logo" specs probably have more to do with competing with the better spec'd Blackout pickups that came out around that same time. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some type of component change to make it specout better to compete with Blackouts. I guess the only way to really know is to sacrifice two of the and see what's inside and test them on some scopes or somthing, but I'm not gonna volunteer mine, that's for sure! : )



If you mean Rob, he's still running the show over at EMG.


----------



## c7spheres

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The quick connect (to the pickups) was introduced around 2001 - 2002.
> 
> This is what we mean.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is how they used to look
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The solderless system (what you're thinking of) was introduced around 2009. That was around the same time that EMG changed the looks of their pickups (new logo, different covers) AND introduced the X series.
> 
> Also IIRC, if a guitar comes STOCK with EMGs, they're going to be all soldered. Even guitars made in the year of our lord 2020. The quick-connect system is only available for aftermarket pickups.



- Thanks for clearing that up. I was thinking of the solderless system.
- What really strange is that my 707 is a quick connect system for the pickup and uses soldered connections/pots, but the confusing part is that when I Google the 707 it says the 707 was introduced in 2001, however, I had my custom guitar built in 1999 and it has a 707 in it, which was something I bought direct from EMG and prevously had installed in my 1999 rg2027xvv, which Ibanez wiki says was introduced in 2000 and Ibanez didn't put in their catalogs until 2000. My 2027xvv neck had a f99 serial number on it and I know I played it with the 707's in 1999. I'm thinking I was part of a test market or something.
- The take-away is I can't trust Google or other websites. They're either trying to gaslight me or this is just more proof of the Mandela effect  I know I'm not confused on the dates because of where I was jamming at the time. BY 2001 I was out of that place and long since had my guitar. Maybe that's why I still love my 707's. Maybe they're not the final version or something. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> If you mean Rob, he's still running the show over at EMG.



No, It was Rick H. Not the Rob the founder. I love EMG though. They've always been really nice and have great customer service over there. Haven't dealt with them in a long time.


----------



## Adieu

Quickconnect old-logo 85X




Quickconnect 85-regular that it replaced, plug and play, old logo, dated


----------



## The SG King

I'll start by saying that I love my Kiesel VM8. It plays great and I'm happy with the lithiums.

Not sure if this is considered unpopular, BUT most of the Kiesel models, finish options, and body shapes are ugly. I forgot where I saw it, but someone on some forum pointed out they need to hire a graphical designer. The different cuts on the models are... Jarring? Not streamlined? Not sure what the right verbage is for that, but the cuts and contours just look off to me. 

The burst finishes are also another weird place in my opinion. There is no smooth transition from the burst to the center, and most of the time the burst is way too thin on the body. Of course, some of this definitely has to do with the buyer's freedom of choice in all of the options; I just don't think the options are executed well on their side.

Additionally, the bolt-on neck heel is another spot that is "meh". I totally agree with the earlier comments about how technique should surpass any deficiencies of the neck heel shape. However, once again in terms of asthetics, I want a rounded neck heel because I like that look.

Also the website is straight out of the early 2000's and the configurator could use a serious overhaul.

In saying all of that, I really do like my matte black, neck through Vader, and I plan on getting a vanquish multiscale. But damn some of those things are ugly.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Also IIRC, if a guitar comes STOCK with EMGs, they're going to be all soldered. Even guitars made in the year of our lord 2020. The quick-connect system is only available for aftermarket pickups.



Nope. All EMGs are quick-connection since a looong time. What you don't get is the Solderless Kit (solderless pots and selector), which I don't want anyway.

All EMG-equipped guitars I've bought since 2005 had quick-connect cable soldered to regular pots.


----------



## USMarine75

Shask said:


> I have been playing pickup roulette lately, and just put a stock TZ back in my Charvel, and it made me question why I ever took it out years ago, lol. Sounds razor tight and chunky. Much clearer and tighter than my 81TW or 707. Very "Pull me Under-ish". It actually makes me want to try many more Dimarzios as it has been years since I used them. I have almost ordered some, but they appear to be very behind on orders due to Covid.
> 
> There is an unpopular opinion... lol. The Tone Zone is tighter and clearer despite everyone thinking it is a muddy pile.



I have AN/TZ pickups in many of my Ibanez guitars and always thought they were a great all-around set. Cleans up well, thick where you want it to be, and the bottom end is easy to tweak with your amp settings. 

And as someone already mentioned the AN is in the JPM with the Steve's Special, at least in the P4.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> Nope. All EMGs are quick-connection since a looong time. What you don't get is the Solderless Kit (solderless pots and selector), which I don't want anyway.
> 
> All EMG-equipped guitars I've bought since 2005 had quick-connect cable soldered to regular pots.



That's what I meant  said quick connect by mistake. Meant solderless


----------



## GunpointMetal

SexHaver420 said:


> I have a new fun unpopular opinion.
> 
> Wood is a fucking awful material to build guitars out of. I have a few guitars I have to set up a few times a year depending on temperature changes. Vigiers don't even have a truss rod and I saw a video of a guy putting the neck in a sauna and a freezer and afterwards it was still within factory specs.
> 
> I've played multiple magnesium/aluminum/composite body guitars. I've also played a few with aluminum/composite necks and they're so much better. Aluminum especially. It has so much more tonal range as long as you allow it to warm up to the temperature of the room.
> 
> I also have a guitar where the body is made out of recycled plastic that has been melted down into a mold and it sounds and feels and sounds every bit as good as my Gibson SG with P90s.
> 
> Edit: Carbon fiber is awesome and more guitars need made out of it.
> 
> Edit 2: People should build guitars out of laminated bamboo because it grows super fast and is really strong and cheap.



Agreed. So far the one company that was making affordable guitars out of plastics went under, and now the custom makers that do it act like that shit costs more than gold and wanna charge out the ass for molded plastic. I also think modern materials are completely wasted on "classic" designs. *cough* Aristides *cough* If you're gonna use modern modern materials, use a modern design. Tradition is the only reason left to make guitars with single scale lengths and headstocks, IMO.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

GunpointMetal said:


> Agreed. So far the one company that was making affordable guitars out of plastics went under, and now the custom makers that do it act like that shit costs more than gold and wanna charge out the ass for molded plastic. I also think modern materials are completely wasted on "classic" designs. *cough* Aristides *cough* If you're gonna use modern modern materials, use a modern design. Tradition is the only reason left to make guitars with single scale lengths and headstocks, IMO.



I don't get why folks keep saying that guitars made of "modern" or non-wood materials are so expensive. 

A new Aristides R is like $2600. There are hundreds of production guitars more expensive than that.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't get why folks keep saying that guitars made of "modern" or non-wood materials are so expensive.
> 
> A new Aristides R is like $2600. There are hundreds of production guitars more expensive than that.




I mean ya’ll still think the cheapest Strandberg is 8 trillion dollars.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't get why folks keep saying that guitars made of "modern" or non-wood materials are so expensive.
> 
> A new Aristides R is like $2600. There are hundreds of production guitars more expensive than that.


For a lot of people $2600 is expensive in reference to a guitar. That's a lot of money for me to spend on a guitar, anyway. Any time I've spec'd them out they come out closer to $3500 for what I'd want to play.


----------



## potatohead33

GunpointMetal said:


> Agreed. So far the one company that was making affordable guitars out of plastics went under, and now the custom makers that do it act like that shit costs more than gold and wanna charge out the ass for molded plastic. I also think modern materials are completely wasted on "classic" designs. *cough* Aristides *cough* If you're gonna use modern modern materials, use a modern design. *Tradition is the only reason left to make guitars with single scale lengths and headstocks*, IMO.



Call me a traditionalist I guess


----------



## MaxOfMetal

GunpointMetal said:


> For a lot of people $2600 is expensive in reference to a guitar. That's a lot of money for me to spend on a guitar, anyway. Any time I've spec'd them out they come out closer to $3500 for what I'd want to play.



I'm not saying they aren't expensive, it's I just don't think they're expensive relative to a similar custom/semi-custom spec'd wooden guitar of similar quality.

Additionally, why would a guitar made of multi-laminate resin/plastic/composite/whatever be cheaper than one made out of stuff that literally grows on trees?


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not saying they aren't expensive, it's I just don't think they're expensive relative to a similar spec'd wooden guitar of similar quality.
> 
> Additionally, why would a guitar made of multi-laminate resin/plastic/composite/whatever be cheaper than one made out of stuff that literally grows on trees?


 I guess I was under the impression that most wood guitars you were paying for the handwork/time when you order a custom. I was also under the impression that most of these composite instruments are molded, which I would think would reduce the amount of manual labor immensely.


----------



## diagrammatiks

GunpointMetal said:


> I guess I was under the impression that most wood guitars you were paying for the handwork/time when you order a custom. I was also under the impression that most of these composite instruments are molded, which I would think would reduce the amount of manual labor immensely.



it’s literally the same amount of work as a guitar body and neck after it’s been CNBC’s.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

GunpointMetal said:


> I guess I was under the impression that most wood guitars you were paying for the handwork/time when you order a custom. I was also under the impression that most of these composite instruments are molded, which I would think would reduce the amount of manual labor immensely.



Nah. 

Given what I've worked on in the past, I'd say it's about the same amount of work, if not more to make a layered composite vs. just gluing up some planks. 

It's different work, but it still takes time and care. 

Aristides still need fretboards cut, inlayed, glued, and fretted. Finish work still takes time and a whole set of skills in itself. They don't just hit a button on a giant guitar extruder. Same with CNC for wooden guitars.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nah.
> 
> Given what I've worked on in the past, I'd say it's about the same amount of work, if not more to make a layered composite vs. just gluing up some planks.
> 
> It's different work, but it still takes time and care.
> 
> Aristides still need fretboards cut, inlayed, glued, and fretted. Finish work still takes time and a whole set of skills in itself. They don't just hit a button on a giant guitar extruder. Same with CNC for wooden guitars.


Interesting. They haven't put out anything I'd pay money for anyways, but I'm keeping an eye on the headless builds.


----------



## Science_Penguin

GunpointMetal said:


> Agreed. So far the one company that was making affordable guitars out of plastics went under, and now the custom makers that do it act like that shit costs more than gold and wanna charge out the ass for molded plastic. I also think modern materials are completely wasted on "classic" designs. *cough* Aristides *cough* If you're gonna use modern modern materials, use a modern design. Tradition is the only reason left to make guitars with single scale lengths and headstocks, IMO.



I understand the shape thing, in a sense. If you're setting out to prove the guitar can be made of material besides wood, a good place to start would be to successfully make a Strat out of not wood. Prove that concept, and then once you've got everyone's attention, get weird with it and show them what else you can do.

At least, that's how I'd approach it, I dunno if Aristides will ever do that.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I mean why can't we have both traditional and modern guitar designs/shapes? I'm the kind of guy that loves the idea of modern features (Evertune, multi-voice active pickups, artificial wood alternatives), but I still lean towards traditional shapes like Les Pauls, Teles, Jazzmasters, etc. I'm not really a fan of those out-there, alien-looking ergo-friendly shapes.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm not really a fan of those out-there, alien-looking ergo-friendly shapes.


I would also like to add headless guitars in the mix too.


----------



## GunpointMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean why can't we have both traditional and modern guitar designs/shapes? I'm the kind of guy that loves the idea of modern features (Evertune, multi-voice active pickups, artificial wood alternatives), but I still lean towards traditional shapes like Les Pauls, Teles, Jazzmasters, etc. I'm not really a fan of those out-there, alien-looking ergo-friendly shapes.


 I don't think the classic shapes will ever go away. I like innovation, so that's where my personal wishlist goes. When I see a wood-alternative guitar, I become 300x less excited when its a Tele/Strat/LP body shape.



BenjaminW said:


> I would also like to add headless guitars in the mix too.


Nope, all new guitars after 2025 will be headless and multi-scale. Guitar has progressed beyond the need for headstocks and single scale necks.


----------



## Adieu

GunpointMetal said:


> Nope, all new guitars after 2025 will be headless and multi-scale. Guitar has progressed beyond the need for headstocks and single scale necks.



Why not play airguitar on a hologram projected by your iPhone 23 or Galaxy S34 (which by then will probably be augmented reality contact lens with broadband brands or something)?


----------



## Adieu

GunpointMetal said:


> Nope, all new guitars after 2025 will be headless and multi-scale. Guitar has progressed beyond the need for headstocks and single scale necks.



Why not play airguitar on a hologram projected by your iPhone 23 or Galaxy S34 (which by then will probably be augmented reality contact lens with broadband brands or something)?


----------



## Adieu

GunpointMetal said:


> Nope, all new guitars after 2025 will be headless and multi-scale. Guitar has progressed beyond the need for headstocks and single scale necks.



Why not play airguitar on a hologram projected by your iPhone 23 or Galaxy S34 (which by then will probably be augmented reality contact lens with broadband brands or something)?


----------



## diagrammatiks

Adieu said:


> Why not play airguitar on a hologram projected by your iPhone 23 or Galaxy S34 (which by then will probably be augmented reality contact lens with broadband brands or something)?


----------



## dr_game0ver

Can't wait for some djenty metalcore boys to go to Nashville claiming that headless multiscale fishman equipped guitars are the future. Them télés and LPs players will beat the hell out of them withing minutes.

Also, active PUs are irrelevant and a thing of the past when electrical installations were still crap and high gain stuf didn't existed.
Also also, active preamps on import basses are ass. 
Also also also, the pick matters as much into the tone chain as the rest of the gear.


----------



## Science_Penguin

dr_game0ver said:


> Can't wait for some djenty metalcore boys to go to Nashville claiming that headless multiscale fishman equipped guitars are the future. Them télés and LPs players will beat the hell out of them withing minutes.



Hell, I'd go to Nashville and say that. How much you wanna bet on them?


----------



## BenjaminW

dr_game0ver said:


> Can't wait for some djenty metalcore boys to go to Nashville claiming that headless multiscale fishman equipped guitars are the future. Them télés and LPs players will beat the hell out of them withing minutes.


Dude, imagine somebody like Brad Paisley with one of those. Bonus points if it's extended range.


----------



## GunpointMetal

dr_game0ver said:


> Can't wait for some djenty metalcore boys to go to Nashville claiming that headless multiscale fishman equipped guitars are the future. Them télés and LPs players will beat the hell out of them withing minutes.


 No, no they wouldn't. (insert Chris Farley bus driver multi-panel meme)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Probably not unpopular, but fuck Reverb's lame ass fee hikes.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Probably not unpopular, but fuck Reverb's lame ass fee hikes.



I've yet to see anything positive about that, except from Reverb's own shitty email.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've yet to see anything positive about that, except from Reverb's own shitty email.


I hope their survey gets fucking HAMMERED. Get it through your THICK, corporate cromagnon skulls: THIS ISN'T THE FUCKING TIME!


----------



## vilk

_We know that right now America is struggling, and that's why we want to make sure you can take home even less when you part with favorite gear to keep a roof over your head. _


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

vilk said:


> _We know that right now America is struggling, and that's why we want to make sure you can take home even less when you part with favorite gear to keep a roof over your head. _


"Growing together!"

Yeah, bullshit.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean why can't we have both traditional and modern guitar designs/shapes? I'm the kind of guy that loves the idea of modern features (Evertune, multi-voice active pickups, artificial wood alternatives), but I still lean towards traditional shapes like Les Pauls, Teles, Jazzmasters, etc. I'm not really a fan of those out-there, alien-looking ergo-friendly shapes.


Nothing new about Dan Armstrongs.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Probably not unpopular, but fuck Reverb's lame ass fee hikes.


All went to sh1t after Etsy bought Reverb. Too bad, my stuff moves faster in there compared to Ebay.


----------



## Matt08642

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean why can't we have both traditional and modern guitar designs/shapes? I'm the kind of guy that loves the idea of modern features (Evertune, multi-voice active pickups, artificial wood alternatives), but I still lean towards traditional shapes like Les Pauls, Teles, Jazzmasters, etc. I'm not really a fan of those out-there, alien-looking ergo-friendly shapes.



This is something I would really love to see take off. Maybe a series of "traditional" shapes made of some more renewable/less scarce than wood materials.

I'd get an Ibanez RG made of some kind of hard material to avoid trem post movement even more + a richlite fretboard or something, so long as it looked like an RG and not something stupid.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Matt08642 said:


> This is something I would really love to see take off. Maybe a series of "traditional" shapes made of some more renewable/less scarce than wood materials.
> 
> I'd get an Ibanez RG made of some kind of hard material to avoid trem post movement even more + a richlite fretboard or something, so long as it looked like an RG and not something stupid.



Doesn't even have to be composite modern materials like carbon fiber. The body can be made of recycled wood and composite paper, wood, plastic material that is denser and heavier than richlite. the problem is the neck. I dont like aluminum necks or similar materials. Sounds to tinny. Hard rock maple is hard to beat with its feel and sturdiness.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MASS DEFECT said:


> Doesn't even have to be composite modern materials like carbon fiber. The body can be made of recycled wood and composite paper, wood, plastic material that is denser and heavier than richlite. the problem is the neck. I dont like aluminum necks or similar materials. Sounds to tinny. Hard rock maple is hard to beat with its feel and sturdiness.



Grab a Vigier or Modulus to try. They really have the whole not wood (or not _all_ wood) neck down.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

MASS DEFECT said:


> Doesn't even have to be composite modern materials like carbon fiber. The body can be made of recycled wood and composite paper, wood, plastic material that is denser and heavier than richlite. the problem is the neck. I dont like aluminum necks or similar materials. Sounds to tinny. Hard rock maple is hard to beat with its feel and sturdiness.


I had an aluminum-necked Kramer once. Didn't sound "tinny" at all.


----------



## gunch

I think floyd phobia is overblown, myself having been floydphobic in the past.

Seeing a dude be like "Oh man this guitar is perfect for me except it has a floyd I don't want it at all now"




It's a guitar not a Kirby vacuum or a Swiss watch


----------



## Science_Penguin

For all that I rag on Floyds, I do love using them, and I'm frankly still hesitant to try alternatives like Kahler. I may consider a flat-mounted Floyd on my next Warmoth build, since they tend to give me less grief.

(BTW, anyone wanting to talk me into a Kahler, this would be the thread to do it...)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Kahler's seem like a nice alternative until you hear about the quirks they have.


----------



## Emperoff

I love Floyds.

Not only they're comfortable and super stable tuning-wise, but they also allow you to fine-tune the tone of your guitar to taste. Just swapping the claw makes a difference, and you have blocks of all materials and sizes to choose from.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Science_Penguin said:


> For all that I rag on Floyds, I do love using them, and I'm frankly still hesitant to try alternatives like Kahler. I may consider a flat-mounted Floyd on my next Warmoth build, since they tend to give me less grief.
> 
> (BTW, anyone wanting to talk me into a Kahler, this would be the thread to do it...)





Spaced Out Ace said:


> Kahler's seem like a nice alternative until you hear about the quirks they have.



Everyone sees the giant bridge with fine tuners and the locking nut and assume Kahlers are just "different Floyds". 

It's a completely different mechanism (cam vs. fulcrum) and Kahlers aren't even double locking trems. 

They have some neat aspects, but considering all the available widgets and things for Floyds, unless you prefer the feel, there's not much to using Kahlers anymore.


----------



## Jon Pearson

gunch said:


> I think floyd phobia is overblown, myself having been floydphobic in the past.
> 
> Seeing a dude be like "Oh man this guitar is perfect for me except it has a floyd I don't want it at all now"
> 
> View attachment 82672
> 
> 
> It's a guitar not a Kirby vacuum or a Swiss watch



THANK YOU. People act like Floyds are advanced alien technology. You can definitely get WAY into that stuff if you choose, but I've been successfully playing them since I was like 13, tuning and setting intonation just takes more time, it isn't really difficult.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

You got people who would workfor hours trying to tweak patches on ancient modelers, while in the same breath saying Floyds are too complicated.


----------



## Vyn

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> You got people who would workfor hours trying to tweak patches on ancient modelers, while in the same breath saying Floyds are too complicated.



This. Setting up a Floyd takes far less time than dialling tones in on modellers.


----------



## youngthrasher9

I’m 100% down for guitars made out of alternative materials. 

One of many reasons:

I saw Chelsea Grin with a friend last year. Even through a LOUD deathcore mix, the Aristides that Jason Richardson played for 1-2 songs was the only guitar he played for their set that sounded different. And not different bad, different good. Almost piano like attack even through the massive gain. Completely changed the way I looked at alternative materials, I was heavily biased against them prior.


----------



## c7spheres

Khalers are great, but expensive. I like that you can adjust string spacing on some of them and individual height too. - That's what I like. I found string spcing not to be a big issue and the height is just a little more work and time to shim it up perfect on a Floyd if needed. The massive undertaking to get one installed on a guitar you want like an Rg is too much hassle and a LoPro is great anyways.
- My buddy's got an older Khaler on his 74 Strat and that guitar is great. He says be careful while diving though because the string can come off the saddle, but I don't dive anyways. 
- It's funny because I spend a lot of time on setting up my guitars that all have floating LoPro's (compared to a fixed bridge) and I never use the bar. I should just put one of those trem stoppers in there.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ive also read that strings tended to start to unwind at the ball end on Kahlers, due to how the strings hook/clamp to the system.

Also apparently you can't flutter with Kahlers. Which sucks


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Ive also read that strings tended to start to unwind at the ball end on Kahlers, due to how the strings hook/clamp to the system.
> 
> Also apparently you can't flutter with Kahlers. Which sucks



Eh, by the time they start unwinding or the ball degrades a string change is long long overdue. 

You can set them up to flutter, it's just very particular.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I bought my first trem guitar after almost a decade of avoiding them like the plague. I just locked it down and I don't fuck with it much. It has some wear and strings pop from it every now and then so I locked it down to keep that from happening. I haven't gotten over my Floydphobia as I MUCH prefer my string thru model.

Please...school me on all the cool Floyd Rose tremolo stuff. Make me interested


----------



## diagrammatiks

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I bought my first trem guitar after almost a decade of avoiding them like the plague. I just locked it down and I don't fuck with it much. It has some wear and strings pop from it every now and then so I locked it down to keep that from happening. I haven't gotten over my Floydphobia as I MUCH prefer my string thru model.
> 
> Please...school me on all the cool Floyd Rose tremolo stuff. Make me interested



one guitar one tuning
then it just takes like an extra 15 minutes every time you change strings.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

diagrammatiks said:


> one guitar one tuning
> then it just takes like an extra 15 minutes every time you change strings.



This....this is turning me off of them..not turning me on to them


----------



## diagrammatiks

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This....this is turning me off of them..not turning me on to them



if i can't convince you to want more guitars...then even god can't save you.


----------



## Vyn

diagrammatiks said:


> one guitar one tuning
> then it just takes like an extra 15 minutes every time you change strings.



I do this with my hardtails even, don't see why it's such an issue doing it with Floyds. 1 guitar, 1 tuning at a particular string gauge is the ultimate time-saver.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

diagrammatiks said:


> one guitar (and its backup) one tuning



Fixed that for you...  Because y'know... "more guitars"


----------



## potatohead33

Vyn said:


> I do this with my hardtails even, don't see why it's such an issue doing it with Floyds. 1 guitar, 1 tuning at a particular string gauge is the ultimate time-saver.



Yep. Not to mention the thing is actually set up properly for the string gauges you're using. Trying to use a 52 in a nut cut for a 56 or vice versa and then dealing with intonation every time, eff that noise. So much easier just to grab another guitar. 

At the very least have two guitars, one in standard and one in drop and grab a drop pedal for the lower stuff.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Vyn said:


> I do this with my hardtails even, don't see why it's such an issue doing it with Floyds. 1 guitar, 1 tuning at a particular string gauge is the ultimate time-saver.



This. Not sure why people bring up the tuning argument. I'm picky about my string gauges and action, and changing tunings on my guitars means I have to go through changing strings and/or redoing the setul.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I thought the whole point for multiple guitars was assigning tunings to specific ones


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Not unpopular gear opinion related: I may or may not have -- I dunno, exposed? -- someone from a local, but obscure 80s band in a group. I'm curious to see how he'll react regarding some random on the internet knowing who he is.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I thought the whole point for multiple guitars was assigning tunings to specific ones


I definitely have an "Eb guitar" and an "E standard guitar."


----------



## _MonSTeR_

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I thought the whole point for multiple guitars was assigning tunings to specific ones



I thought the point of multiple guitars was Multiple... Guitars...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I definitely have an "Eb guitar" and an "E standard guitar."



My string thru is my drop D and my trem guitar is drop C. I'm thinking I'm gonna swap the humbuckers from the trem guitar and replace them with single coils. Haven't decided yet


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Oh also.

Whammy/pitch shift pedals are fun. You guys are just mean.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Oh also.
> 
> Whammy/pitch shift pedals are fun. You guys are just mean.


Who gives a shit about making it sound like Tom Comrade-ello. I'm just lazy and want to use a Whammy DT to both fine tune it to the album as well as change tunings.


----------



## Gmork

This thread has really got me thinking of hunting down some amps that are not necessarily thought of as "good" just to have some unique and sometimes ugly raunchy tones.
Been chasing the "perfect" tone long enough, ive got more than enough awesome amps that sound wicked and pristine in different ways.
Sometimes ugly is awesome


----------



## TedEH

Going back to the floyd thing, because I missed it when it was fresh -
I don't dislike floyds because they're complicated or hard to set up or less reliable or anything like that.

I don't like floyds because they don't feel good to play. They make muting feel different... sort of soft/squishy? My hand never knows quite where to sit to mute properly.

Could I adapt and it would be fine? Sure I could, and I do, because I do have a guitar with a floyd. But I still would prefer that one guitar had any other bridge.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

youngthrasher9 said:


> I’m 100% down for guitars made out of alternative materials.
> 
> One of many reasons:
> 
> I saw Chelsea Grin with a friend last year. Even through a LOUD deathcore mix, the Aristides that Jason Richardson played for 1-2 songs was the only guitar he played for their set that sounded different. And not different bad, different good. Almost piano like attack even through the massive gain. Completely changed the way I looked at alternative materials, I was heavily biased against them prior.


Son of Sam ftw.


----------



## jco5055

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Not unpopular gear opinion related: I may or may not have -- I dunno, exposed? -- someone from a local, but obscure 80s band in a group. I'm curious to see how he'll react regarding some random on the internet knowing who he is.




What exactly do you mean? What is this "group"? A facebook group like idk ERGN or Modern Guitarist?


----------



## MASS DEFECT

TedEH said:


> Going back to the floyd thing, because I missed it when it was fresh -
> I don't dislike floyds because they're complicated or hard to set up or less reliable or anything like that.
> 
> I don't like floyds because they don't feel good to play. They make muting feel different... sort of soft/squishy? My hand never knows quite where to sit to mute properly.
> 
> Could I adapt and it would be fine? Sure I could, and I do, because I do have a guitar with a floyd. But I still would prefer that one guitar had any other bridge.



I started and "grew up" with floyds and schallers. palm muting on a TOM feels weird to me. Adjusting the strap height and the angle of my downstroke sure helped. 

Top mounted (not recessed) floyds, I cant do. I find it hard to dig in and do heavy mutes without me pressing down and changing the pitch a bit.


----------



## Shask

I had Kahlers back in high school. I remember they were pretty cool, but would be a PITA these days since Floyds are so common. Even Slayer had to take their Kahlers off one guitar for another there for awhile because they couldn't buy them, lol. I remember they are very boinky feeling, and kind of feel high like a TOM bridge.

I always had Floyd/Edge variations for years, then went all hardtail, passive pickups, because it was the SSO thing to do, lol. I kind of felt handicapped in a way. Like, my guitar was only half as useful without a Floyd. I have gotten more Floyd guitars since then, and probably have about half and half. Now I am currently obsessed with wanting non-locking trems, like those on PRS and Charvel 2pt guitars.

Going back and forth, I would say the biggest negative I notice with Floyds is that the strings feel stiffer. They are harder to bend on a Floyd, so you use smaller strings to compensate. I never noticed this until I went back and forth.


----------



## Shask

MASS DEFECT said:


> I started and "grew up" with floyds and schallers. palm muting on a TOM feels weird to me. Adjusting the strap height and the angle of my downstroke sure helped.
> 
> Top mounted (not recessed) floyds, I cant do. I find it hard to dig in and do heavy mutes without me pressing down and changing the pitch a bit.


I have one top mounted Floyd, and it does feel weird to me. The guitar plays SOOO smooth though, I cant see exchanging it. A Charvel So-Cal.


----------



## Shask

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I bought my first trem guitar after almost a decade of avoiding them like the plague. I just locked it down and I don't fuck with it much. It has some wear and strings pop from it every now and then so I locked it down to keep that from happening. I haven't gotten over my Floydphobia as I MUCH prefer my string thru model.
> 
> Please...school me on all the cool Floyd Rose tremolo stuff. Make me interested


Just watch a Steve Vai concert, lol.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Shask said:


> I have one top mounted Floyd, and it does feel weird to me. The guitar plays SOOO smooth though, I cant see exchanging it. A Charvel So-Cal.



Aaah I sold a white Adrian Smith Jackson because I just couldn't find the right technique for it. I was so stoked for that guitar, but apparently Im just clumsy and lazy to wield it.



> I always had Floyd/Edge variations for years, then went all hardtail, passive pickups, because it was the SSO thing to do, lol. I kind of felt handicapped in a way. Like, my guitar was only half as useful without a Floyd.



Floyd style bridges are like condoms for me. Nice to always have around when you need 'em.


----------



## USMarine75

I'm not sure why but I really dislike Phil McKnight. Like legit cringe when I see him. Maybe it's because his takes are clickbaity and his opinions never seem well thought out. 

Meanwhile, I like Rhett Shull and seem to be in the minority there. At the start of his videos I feel like I'm supposed to dislike him, and he certainly also has clickbaity titles, yet by the end I find myself generally agreeing with everything.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Phil is a giant bore.


----------



## rokket2005

I generally don't like most guitar youtubers. I found John Nathan Cordys channel a few weeks back and really enjoy his playing and lack of youtuberism, but he's about the only guitar channel I watch. I like Tom Quayles stuff cause he did/does demos for at least 3 other channels besides his own, and the guy who did demos for N'Stuff music is good too but I don't remember his name at the moment.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

rokket2005 said:


> I generally don't like most guitar youtubers. I found John Nathan Cordys channel a few weeks back and really enjoy his playing and lack of youtuberism.


I like Joshua Jones a lot. His vibrato is like a bunch of step and a half bends. Sorta reminds me of George Lynch's more normal "bend" vibrato (as opposed to his more popular "slide" / "jack off" vibrato), but more... uh, "more."


----------



## USMarine75

rokket2005 said:


> I generally don't like most guitar youtubers. I found John Nathan Cordys channel a few weeks back and really enjoy his playing and lack of youtuberism, but he's about the only guitar channel I watch. I like Tom Quayles stuff cause he did/does demos for at least 3 other channels besides his own, and the guy who did demos for N'Stuff music is good too but I don't remember his name at the moment.



The younger N'stuff guy or the older one?

Both are bald... Jim Graff (younger) or Mark Lucas (older).


----------



## rokket2005

This guy


----------



## WarMachine

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Who gives a shit about making it sound like Tom Comrade-ello. I'm just lazy and want to use a Whammy DT to both fine tune it to the album as well as change tunings.


Nah dude, the dime cries man, the dime cries lol.


----------



## Rotatous

Barbie pink, sparkly, purple, etc guitars... I just don't get it. 

I swear if Daisy Rock made a 7 string you'd see people djent-ing out on them around here


----------



## StevenC

Rotatous said:


> Barbie pink, sparkly, purple, etc guitars... I just don't get it.
> 
> I swear if Daisy Rock made a 7 string you'd see people djent-ing out on them around here


Pink is just obviously the best colour for some guitars. Strats, SGs, anything with Gretsch on the headstock. Objectively improved by Burgundy Mist Sparkle. If you don't see that, I don't think you're really a guitarist.

Obviously by extension this carries to things like Soloists and RGs. Every 80s shaped guitar is improved by being pink too, like stars and anything with a slanted humbucker in the bridge.

And then purple is really simple because the JPX is the best looking guitar ever made and it's purple.


----------



## c7spheres

Rotatous said:


> Barbie pink, sparkly, purple, etc guitars... I just don't get it.
> 
> I swear if Daisy Rock made a 7 string you'd see people djent-ing out on them around here


 They look even better under colored lights.


----------



## Adieu

Rotatous said:


> Barbie pink, sparkly, purple, etc guitars... I just don't get it.
> 
> I swear if Daisy Rock made a 7 string you'd see people djent-ing out on them around here



You heretic!

Pink isn't a superstrat color. It's THE superstrat color.


PS neon pink or porny pink, NEVER shell pink. That abomination of a color, like all its pastel brethren, only looks fitting in psych wards, repressive government institutions... and on asian chicks shooting for a nerdy-whimsical vibe. Don't ask why, just know it looks ridiculous everywhere else. Seriously, fuck pastel colors.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Adieu said:


> You heretic!
> 
> Pink isn't a superstrat color. It's THE superstrat color.
> 
> 
> PS neon pink or porny pink, NEVER shell pink. That abomination of a color, like all its pastel brethren, only looks fitting in psych wards, repressive government institutions... and on asian chicks shooting for a nerdy-whimsical vibe. Don't ask why, just know it looks ridiculous everywhere else. Seriously, fuck pastel colors.



What's "porny pink"?

While my search was enjoyable, it didn't uncover any guitars.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Rotatous said:


> Barbie pink, sparkly, purple, etc guitars... I just don't get it.
> 
> I swear if Daisy Rock made a 7 string you'd see people djent-ing out on them around here


If I could find a Barbie Pink headless 9-string with robin's egg blue hardware I would rock the shit out of that. Like I might carry it around places I don't need it just to show people.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

The Boss DS1 is and still is an awesome sounding pedal.

The older MIJ models are generally considered great and all the modded versions are nice too, but a stock MIT version you can get off the shelf of every music store can sound amazing when dialled right.


----------



## budda

Adieu said:


> You heretic!
> 
> Pink isn't a superstrat color. It's THE superstrat color.
> 
> 
> PS neon pink or porny pink, NEVER shell pink. That abomination of a color, like all its pastel brethren, only looks fitting in psych wards, repressive government institutions... and on asian chicks shooting for a nerdy-whimsical vibe. Don't ask why, just know it looks ridiculous everywhere else. Seriously, fuck pastel colors.



Shut your mouth about pastels  (yes I know where this is posted)


----------



## StevenC

Bloody_Inferno said:


> The Boss DS1 is and still is an awesome sounding pedal.
> 
> The older MIJ models are generally considered great and all the modded versions are nice too, but a stock MIT version you can get off the shelf of every music store can sound amazing when dialled right.


The That Pedal Show episode with the back and forth between silver screw and brand new is very telling. That said, it's been two years and still haven't bought a DS-1...


----------



## Emperoff

While we're at it...

*That Pedal Show* is the most pedantic and boring guitar Youtube channel in existence.

"Hey! Let's do an 1 hour tuner comparison where we do not actually compare tuners!". Yep, just what the world needs.


----------



## BenjaminW

Emperoff said:


> While we're at it...
> 
> *That Pedal Show* is the most pedantic and boring guitar Youtube channel in existence.
> 
> "Hey! Let's do an 1 hour tuner comparison where we do not actually compare tuners!". Yep, just what the world needs.


Do they not realize people have short attention spans?


----------



## Emperoff

BenjaminW said:


> Do they not realize people have short attention spans?



Average attention span is well under 5 minutes, reason why Youtube pays more for videos over 10 minutes. There's quite a bit of range from 5 minutes to 1 hour of wasted viewer's life, though.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Hmmm. Now that you mention it. A pink Modifier would be kinda hot. Now I want one.


----------



## potatohead33

BenjaminW said:


> Do they not realize people have short attention spans?



I don't know man. The last few months without much else to do I have been watching some stupid shit. I think the other day I watched a dude on Youtube for like 15 minutes make a grilled cheese sandwich.


----------



## Seabeast2000

potatohead33 said:


> I don't know man. The last few months without much else to do I have been watching some stupid shit. I think the other day I watched a dude on Youtube for like 15 minutes make a grilled cheese sandwich.


----------



## USMarine75

1​---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Emperoff said:


> While we're at it...
> 
> *That Pedal Show* is the most pedantic and boring guitar Youtube channel in existence.
> 
> "Hey! Let's do an 1 hour tuner comparison where we do not actually compare tuners!". Yep, just what the world needs.


----------



## USMarine75

Rotatous said:


> Barbie pink, sparkly, purple, etc guitars... I just don't get it.
> 
> I swear if Daisy Rock made a 7 string you'd see people djent-ing out on them around here



I have at least 20 (maybe 30?) pink, purple, pastel blue, and sparkly colored guitars. 

But no garbage djent guitars.

Wait... dammit... I have Mayones. 



rokket2005 said:


> This guy




That's Jim.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Emperoff said:


> While we're at it...
> 
> *That Pedal Show* is the most pedantic and boring guitar Youtube channel in existence.
> 
> "Hey! Let's do an 1 hour tuner comparison where we do not actually compare tuners!". Yep, just what the world needs.



OMG! Yes! It's like "Coffee Talk" for corksniffers.

That said, other "review" channels that also suck infinite amounts of ass... 

The Tone King, Ola Englund, EytschPi42, & Fluff just to name a few.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

All reviews are pretty much garbage.

Nothing will ever –EVER– come anywhere near close to just trying stuff out.

This is especially true for guitars that can vary so significantly from one another.


----------



## USMarine75

This thread just reaffirms that I'd probably dislike 90% of you IRL (and 95+% of you would probably feel the same way towards me)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Here's a whopper:

Most folks have no idea how guitars work or how they're made, and it shows. 

Few things are more cringey than someone going on about how much "better this spec is" or that "this is a cheap way to build that" when they have no idea.

It's 2020, all the information is out there for free in various media. Spend some time learning about this stuff. 

But it's okay. We all start somewhere, and I certainly don't know even a 1/10th about any of this stuff. So be open minded, try stuff.


----------



## TedEH

MaxOfMetal said:


> Most folks have no idea how guitars work or how they're made, and it shows.


I think most people (I'm talking in general, not just enthusiasts on a forum per-se) don't know how most the things they use are made, or how they work.

So many people have zero idea of how their phones or computers work, despite the ubiquity of those things.


----------



## Science_Penguin

I'll go ahead and say as a blanket statement that guitar gear review channels don't interest me.

Most of the time, all I want is a straight demo of whatever gear I'm researching. I don't need a rephrasing of what I probably already read on Sweetwater plus people cracking jokes, shooting the shit, or saying "uuhhhh" a lot.


----------



## TedEH

I actually like some review channels, but mostly on the basis of the character of the reviewers. I used to watch a lot of Chapman / Andertons. Even if it's not super useful as a review, I enjoy seeing someone enthusiastically enjoy new gear the way I would.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> I actually like some review channels, but mostly on the basis of the character of the reviewers. I used to watch a lot of Chapman / Andertons. Even if it's not super useful as a review, I enjoy seeing someone enthusiastically enjoy new gear the way I would.



I can dig on an unboxing or comparison video, I just don't use them to determine whether something is worthwhile or not.


----------



## oracles

TPS can be a bit long-winded at times, but Dan is such a knowledgeable guy and he gives out a LOT of information that tons of people have no idea about. I'll admit that I've absolutely fast forwarded through several of their videos, but the depth and quality of the information is worth it. One of the few review/demo channels I'll actually watch. 

As far as other review/demo channels go, the top two worst have to be SMG/Glenn and Fluff. Glenn has one record as his "claim to fame" and its not even the bands best sounding one, and outside of that, everything he does is incredibly generic and generally doesn't sound great. Some of his "advice" is also straight up garbage. 

Fluff is equally as offensive in his demo/reviews for boring and generic riffs, out of key leads, and inability to properly demo a fuzz pedal. His fuzz demos and Lundgren videos are some of the worst videos I think I've ever watched.


----------



## Science_Penguin

TedEH said:


> I actually like some review channels, but mostly on the basis of the character of the reviewers. I used to watch a lot of Chapman / Andertons. Even if it's not super useful as a review, I enjoy seeing someone enthusiastically enjoy new gear the way I would.



They were one of the few I bothered subbing to. Chappers and The Captain are actually fun as personalities. With them it was less about talking too much and more about my sub box filling up with info about gear I have no interest in.

I'd still check them out if they happened to cover something I want.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

oracles said:


> As far as other review/demo channels go, the top two worst have to be SMG/Glenn and Fluff. Glenn has one record as his "claim to fame" and its not even the bands best sounding one, and outside of that, everything he does is incredibly generic and generally doesn't sound great. Some of his "advice" is also straight up garbage.
> 
> Fluff is equally as offensive in his demo/reviews for boring and generic riffs, out of key leads, and inability to properly demo a fuzz pedal. His fuzz demos and Lundgren videos are some of the worst videos I think I've ever watched.



If it was the album I'm thinking of, it wasn't even the real fucking band either. 

Also yeah, agreed on Fluff. 100% And his recent videos have been unwatchable because it's nothing but talktalktalktalktalktalktlklfjdjsajdjs. It's not even Ola's charming-in-it's-own-kinda-way talk either.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

oracles said:


> TPS can be a bit long-winded at times, but Dan is such a knowledgeable guy and he gives out a LOT of information that tons of people have no idea about. I'll admit that I've absolutely fast forwarded through several of their videos, but the depth and quality of the information is worth it. One of the few review/demo channels I'll actually watch.
> 
> As far as other review/demo channels go, the top two worst have to be SMG/Glenn and Fluff. Glenn has one record as his "claim to fame" and its not even the bands best sounding one, and outside of that, everything he does is incredibly generic and generally doesn't sound great. Some of his "advice" is also straight up garbage.
> 
> Fluff is equally as offensive in his demo/reviews for boring and generic riffs, out of key leads, and inability to properly demo a fuzz pedal. His fuzz demos and Lundgren videos are some of the worst videos I think I've ever watched.


TPS are buffoons. "Let's do a video about different Rat type pedals, but have next to zero clue how anything works." That was a real hoot.


----------



## TedEH

oracles said:


> SMG/Glenn


I liked Glen when I was a tiny bit younger and was easily won over by the novelty of "angry youtubers", but at this point he doesn't produce good enough mixes or make strong enough points for me to want to endure his abrasive and antagonistic delivery.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I love when he shits on tones/mixes others get and his sound hideous. Lmao


----------



## oracles

Spaced Out Ace said:


> TPS are buffoons. "Let's do a video about different Rat type pedals, but have next to zero clue how anything works." That was a real hoot.



I absolutely wouldn't recommend them for anything high gain, it's not their forte at all and they've said as much in previous videos. I don't much care for Mick, but Dan is an interesting dude and he's very knowledgeable when it comes to all things pedals. But again, anything high gain is totally out of their wheelhouse and I wouldn't suggest a video of theirs that's attempting it, it's clearly not their strong suit in any capacity.


----------



## Emperoff

Every time I see reviewers dropping the 6th string to D when getting to the heavy stuff I want to punch them in the face.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> Every time I see reviewers dropping the 6th string to D when getting to the heavy stuff I want to punch them in the face.


Bonus points if it's the same 0 - 3 - 5 chord over and over.


----------



## Matt08642

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Bonus points if it's the same 0 - 3 - 5 chord over and over.



Imagine being a YouTube gear reviewer. It's the gear forum guys wet dream: Get sent free stuff and get paid by ad revenue to play 30 seconds of 0 3 5 00000000 0 3 5 00000000 0 3 5 00000000

100k subscribers, invited to NAMM, gets to interview incredible guitarists, etc


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Matt08642 said:


> Imagine being a YouTube gear reviewer. It's the gear forum guys wet dream: Get sent free stuff and get paid by ad revenue to play 30 seconds of 0 3 5 00000000 0 3 5 00000000 0 3 5 00000000
> 
> 100k subscribers, invited to NAMM, gets to interview incredible guitarists, etc



I mean we were just talking about Fluff.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Even funnier are the types that feel need to headbang along to their own crappy riffs while demoing their $300+ HM-2 clone pedals.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

Iphone clips are better than full production.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

Carl Kolchak said:


> Even funnier are the types that feel need to headbang along to their own crappy riffs while demoing their $300+ HM-2 clone pedals.


That is the worst. I see it on Facebook all day long.


----------



## Jacksonluvr636

Not gear perse but tone......That clank clank tone that has been popularised over the last decade or so sounds like utter dogshit.


----------



## Metropolis

People and what they do are not gear 

Ola is awesome, also Keith Merrow.


----------



## WarMachine

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I mean we were just talking about Fluff.


Nah, too many triplets crammed together for fluff to pull off


----------



## Seabeast2000

WarMachine said:


> Nah, too many triplets crammed together for fluff to pull off



But he gets remarkable gained tones on the green channel of a 5153. This takes skill.


----------



## BenjaminW

It would be cool to see more humbuckers with rails in them.

This opinion of mine definitely was not inspired by Wes Hauch releasing a signature pickup...


----------



## BornToLooze

I don't get why you wouldn't want a tone knob on a guitar. 

Most of the time when something's not a bridge pickup lead, they sound better with the tone on 0 for the bridge than they do on the neck pickup. And some neck pickup leads sound better when mess with your tone knob.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> It would be cool to see more humbuckers with rails in them.
> 
> This opinion of mine definitely was not inspired by Wes Hauch releasing a signature pickup...


Nope. It was inspired by Bill Lawrence releasing numerous pickups with them.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BornToLooze said:


> I don't get why you wouldn't want a tone knob on a guitar.
> 
> Most of the time when something's not a bridge pickup lead, they sound better with the tone on 0 for the bridge than they do on the neck pickup. And some neck pickup leads sound better when mess with your tone knob.


I use the tone knob on a guitar to adjust to how something sounds that day. I tend to run the tone at or around 8. I find 10 to, for most things, be a bit much.

I used to dial the treble knob on the amp, pedal, etc. back, but found it was far too likely to get really dark and muffled. Started rolling back the tone knob a bit and then dialing in from there. I found it worked better like that.


----------



## BornToLooze

BornToLooze said:


> I don't get why you wouldn't want a tone knob on a guitar.
> 
> Most of the time when something's not a bridge pickup lead, they sound better with the tone on 0 for the bridge than they do on the neck pickup. And some neck pickup leads sound better when mess with your tone knob.





BenjaminW said:


> It would be cool to see more humbuckers with rails in them.
> 
> This opinion of mine definitely was not inspired by Wes Hauch releasing a signature pickup...



2 of my favorite guitar players use a Bill Lawrence in the bridge, I really need to get another guitar with a 500XL in the bridge. At the moment I only have a Strat with Hot Rails and I don't like them.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BornToLooze said:


> 2 of my favorite guitar players use a Bill Lawrence in the bridge, I really need to get another guitar with a 500XL in the bridge. At the moment I only have a Strat with Hot Rails and I don't like them.


Nuno has killer guitar tone.

Speaking of Nuno, Jay Parmar did a video (I believe recently) and it was a Washburn Nuno. It was really awesome looking. Had the Nuno logo on it, looked roasted/burnt/whatever. I'd love a very bare, oiled guitar with a Stephens cutaway. Too bad Randburn shit the bed.


----------



## BornToLooze

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I use the tone knob on a guitar to adjust to how something sounds that day. I tend to run the tone at or around 8. I find 10 to, for most things, be a bit much.



I keep my bridge on 10 for the most part, especially for metal to get the aggressiveness, but I can't think of the last time I had my neck pickup above 5.



Spaced Out Ace said:


> Nuno has killer guitar tone.



So does Leda, my underrated guitar player of choice.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BornToLooze said:


> I keep my bridge on 10 for the most part, especially for metal to get the aggressiveness, but I can't think of the last time I had my neck pickup above 5.


I find the bridge and neck pickup sound best with the tone knob between 6.5 and 8. It is less spiky/harsh in the high mids, highs, and presence range of the tone.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Nope. It was inspired by Bill Lawrence releasing numerous pickups with them.


I think I just have the best opinions and taste when it comes to gear.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Tone knobs are dumb


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Tone knobs are dumb


FORGET ABOUT THE FUCKING TOE!


----------



## Emperoff

Whenever my guitar sounds like shit, I always check the tone pot first. 

There is a perfect solution for tone pot lovers and haters, though:
https://guitarelectronics.com/cts-500k-no-load-tone-pot/

I don't really mind them, tbh. I use push/pulls anyway so if I'm feeling jazzy or want to do the Santana thing, they're there. Otherwise they stay at 10.


----------



## StevenC

Carl Kolchak said:


> Even funnier are the types that feel need to headbang along to their own crappy riffs while demoing their $300+ HM-2 clone pedals.


I think this is a really dumb and elitist thing to criticise about a musician. Any good teacher will tell you how important movement is to develop your sense of rhythm and the stronger the embodiment the stronger the sense of rhythm. And for people who have put in that effort it becomes incredibly difficult to turn it off on the riffs you find objectionable.

And like, more than that, you're just laughing at people for enjoying themselves.


----------



## Bearitone

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> Not gear perse but tone......That clank clank tone that has been popularised over the last decade or so sounds like utter dogshit.


Agreed.

To add to that, most 8 string demos (even Bulb's most recent Dover play through video) include an 8 string guitar with fucking ass-loads of fret-buzz and clanking. I don't see how it doesn't bother people. How can it be acceptable for $3k+ guitars to sound like that? Granted enough gain will cover it all up when recording, its just damn, I thought when you forked out that kind of money fret-buzz would be nonexistent.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Bearitone said:


> Agreed.
> 
> To add to that, most 8 string demos (even Bulb's most recent Dover play through video) include an 8 string guitar with fucking ass-loads of fret-buzz and clanking. I don't see how it doesn't bother people. How can it be acceptable for $3k+ guitars to sound like that? Granted enough gain will cover it all up when recording, its just damn, I thought when you forked out that kind of money fret-buzz would be nonexistent.


 There's definitely an acceptable amount of mechanical buzz when you're aiming for super low action that pretty much doesn't get picked up by the pickups, then there's the Tosin Abasi clean tone where it sounds like everything on the wound strings is practically fretting out. I honestly hate that clean tone for anything aside from the super percussive thump stuff.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Bearitone said:


> I thought when you forked out that kind of money fret-buzz would be nonexistent.



Nothing stops the physical movement of the strings.

As long as you can't hear it through the final product, it doesn't matter. 

A little buzz unplugged is completely normal with low action.


----------



## vilk

Sorry, I missed the stop for criticizing youtube demo videos, but this needs to be said:

*The #1 worst pedal demo channel ever is Pedal Fight*

It's ironic, too, because it's really got excellent layout and concept, it looks really nice. And the pedals he chooses are often ones that I would want to compare. But this guy just doesn't know how to use pedals, or doesn't know how to record, or doesn't know... something. He makes absolutely every pedal he touches sound like absolute shit. He even makes a ProCo Rat sound like shit, and that's hard to do.

If you're ever interested in a pedal and you watch Pedal Fight and think _Wow that pedal sucks dick_, it's not the pedal.


----------



## Shask

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Tone knobs are dumb


I get why people like them, but they never worked for my playing style. I just keep them at 10.

I have always thought about rewiring them to be a tight control instead. Cut the lows to tighten up the sound instead of the instant dullifier they normally are.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I feel naked without a Tone knob. It's nice to have the ability to roll down the treble a little for some jazz licks.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

BornToLooze said:


> I don't get why you wouldn't want a tone knob on a guitar.
> 
> Most of the time when something's not a bridge pickup lead, they sound better with the tone on 0 for the bridge than they do on the neck pickup. And some neck pickup leads sound better when mess with your tone knob.


This is why,


----------



## lewis

i feel like the people who love a tone knob, have never tried a guitar with pickups wired straight to output bypassing all knobs - even volume.

Its unreal/Godlike/Game changing.

I want to get a new pickguard on my Ibanez with NO holes and bridge only pickup and literally have no controls.
Clean asf and incredible output and clarity.


----------



## InHiding

The tone knob was probably nice when technology wasn't so advanced. I think nowadays such sound sculpting would be better to have in pedal form, kind of like a wah. It would allow for a lot more options too.


----------



## Shask

Carl Kolchak said:


> This is why,



His tone always sounds awful, lol. I actually think he runs his guitar through a wah pedal stuck in 1 position to get his tone.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> His tone always sounds awful, lol. I actually think he runs his guitar through a wah pedal stuck in 1 position to get his tone.



Ibanez Iceman with the tone knobs set to 0 > Ibanez TS9 with the tone set to max > JCM800 cranked to the fucking gills.

That has always been the (not so) secret to Tom G's tone. only time he strayed away from that was during the late '80s/early '90s... An era we don't speak of.



lewis said:


> i feel like the people who love a tone knob, have never tried a guitar with pickups wired straight to output bypassing all knobs - even volume.
> 
> Its unreal/Godlike/Game changing.
> 
> I want to get a new pickguard on my Ibanez with NO holes and bridge only pickup and literally have no controls.
> Clean asf and incredible output and clarity.




I'm actually about to gut one of my guitars completely, and install a single bridge pickup and killswitch.


----------



## lewis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Ibanez Iceman with the tone knobs set to 0 > Ibanez TS9 with the tone set to max > JCM800 cranked to the fucking gills.
> 
> That has always been the (not so) secret to Tom G's tone. only time he strayed away from that was during the late '80s/early '90s... An era we don't speak of.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually about to gut one of my guitars completely, and install a single bridge pickup and killswitch.


oooh nice!
Be interested in a thread/pics on that once done if you are up for it?


----------



## WarMachine

Shask said:


> I get why people like them, but they never worked for my playing style. I just keep them at 10.
> 
> I have always thought about rewiring them to be a tight control instead. Cut the lows to tighten up the sound instead of the instant dullifier they normally are.


And more like a tight switch would be the bomb, like how you have switches on a bass or the pickup booster switches for EMG's. That would be a great way to pull an OD out of a chain.


----------



## vilk

lewis said:


> i feel like the people who love a tone knob, have never tried a guitar with pickups wired straight to output bypassing all knobs - even volume.
> 
> Its unreal/Godlike/Game changing.
> 
> I want to get a new pickguard on my Ibanez with NO holes and bridge only pickup and literally have no controls.
> Clean asf and incredible output and clarity.





That's why I've always wanted to try one of these







holy shit they still make new ones?? Or they've got leftover old ones  I should buy this........


----------



## Carl Kolchak

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Ibanez Iceman with the tone knobs set to 0 > Ibanez TS9 with the tone set to max > JCM800 cranked to the fucking gills.



TS10


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Ibanez Iceman with the tone knobs set to 0 > Ibanez TS9 with the tone set to max > JCM800 cranked to the fucking gills.
> 
> That has always been the (not so) secret to Tom G's tone. only time he strayed away from that was during the late '80s/early '90s... An era we don't speak of.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually about to gut one of my guitars completely, and install a single bridge pickup and killswitch.


Interesting. I always thought he used a wah pedal, or later on, that Q Zone pedal.

When I think of tone rolled back, I think Obituary.


----------



## Shask

WarMachine said:


> And more like a tight switch would be the bomb, like how you have switches on a bass or the pickup booster switches for EMG's. That would be a great way to pull an OD out of a chain.


That would be easy also. Just a resistor, a cap, and a switch.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Carl Kolchak said:


> TS10



Shut up it's the same circuit. 



Shask said:


> Interesting. I always thought he used a wah pedal, or later on, that Q Zone pedal.
> 
> When I think of tone rolled back, I think Obituary.



Nah. Always used the Tubescreamer. Get a standard-tune guitar, put the tone at 0, crank the Tubescreamer to 10, and put that into a low gain (or JCM-esque) amp. Instant Into The Crypt of Rays.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Shut up it's the same circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. Always used the Tubescreamer. Get a standard-tune guitar, put the tone at 0, crank the Tubescreamer to 10, and put that into a low gain (or JCM-esque) amp. Instant Into The Crypt of Rays.


I know. I asked him myself.


----------



## Emperoff

WarMachine said:


> And more like a tight switch would be the bomb, like how you have switches on a bass or the pickup booster switches for EMG's. That would be a great way to pull an OD out of a chain.



The EMG BTC works fantastic on guitar and can easily replace a boost for what is commonly used.


----------



## lewis

vilk said:


> That's why I've always wanted to try one of these
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> holy shit they still make new ones?? Or they've got leftover old ones  I should buy this........



I dont even like Deans but I would mod the hell out of that haha

really cool.

Maximum Simplicity - Maximum output

EDIT:
Invader ?

jesus that straight to output would be B R U T A L


----------



## vilk

I have an Invader in my Warlock and I super duper hate it. But I'm not good enough to play Nile songs anyway


----------



## Necky379

One of my favorite and most well regarded guitars is a beat to shit MIM strat with a raw neck and a single Invader set low and wired straight to the jack. 



If you have the means, I highly suggest you picking one up.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> The EMG BTC works fantastic on guitar and can easily replace a boost for what is commonly used.


That might be kind of cool with my EMG ALX sets. Too bad their accessories are pretty pricey.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

vilk said:


> I have an Invader in my Warlock and I super duper hate it. But I'm not good enough to play Nile songs anyway



Do yourself a favor and set that Invader super low, almost flush to the pickup rings. Invaders are underrated pickups in this era of "tight" pickups.


----------



## vilk

MASS DEFECT said:


> Do yourself a favor and set that Invader super low, almost flush to the pickup rings. Invaders are underrated pickups in this era of "tight" pickups.


That is how I have it, and it is definitely a marked improvement on having at "normal" height. But it's still not my favorite. I think I like old man pickups. I'm always playing stoner metal anyway. It would probably work fine for death metal. I never touch that warlock, been trying to sell it for ages.


----------



## c7spheres

InHiding said:


> The tone knob was probably nice when technology wasn't so advanced. I think nowadays such sound sculpting would be better to have in pedal form, kind of like a wah. It would allow for a lot more options too.


 I think you're probably right. I don't know anyone who ever uses them except for that on purpose slam it all the way down tone. It' might as well be a switch.
- The only time I ever use a tone pot other than what I was just saying is with my piezo pickups and when I can't use my regular setup with programmable EQ to shape the tone in my processor AND I'm gonna strum or pick harder with them. I basically almost never do this. Usually only when experimenting.

- The one time I actually needed an adjustable tone pot was when checking out my buddys China Squire Strat with the most trebly single coils I ever heard. I actually used a tone knob to turn it down anddialed it in. I was flabbergasted! 



WarMachine said:


> And more like a tight switch would be the bomb, like how you have switches on a bass or the pickup booster switches for EMG's. That would be a great way to pull an OD out of a chain.


 


Spaced Out Ace said:


> That might be kind of cool with my EMG ALX sets. Too bad their accessories are pretty pricey.



- I have the EMG PA-2 installed which is just a straight preamp booster. I'm happy with it, but that BTC you're talking about would probably be more desirable for dialing it in and I bet it could replace an OD pedal.
- My PA-2 can replace an OD pedal by itself. 
- The BTC and PA-2 are about the same price, but the BTC has the treble and bass boost and cut so I bet it would work out better for most people. 
- The difference is the BTC is a concentric pot and the PA-2 is a 2 way toggle switch
- The PA-2 has 20db of boost and the BTC has 12db of boost/cut, but the thing is that the PA-2 never needs to be cranked that much to get that effect. I bet 12db is perfect amount really.
- If wanting to replace an OD pedal my guess is that the BTC would be the way to go, however I had no need to upgrade as with the PA-2 all I do is use it as a tight switch by lowering the internal pot to zero boost which adds no boost but changes the feel a little bit. I've mentioned it before somewhere on this site too. I rarely use it nowadays. It's just kinda there at this point but occassionally handy.


----------



## Necky379

Nobody asked but just to add to the discussion while Invaders are coming up, something I haven’t seen mentioned, I fine tune the hex screws. Bringing the screws up on the bridge side coil under the low strings slightly makes it way more chimey and clear. It really doesn’t take a lot, just some tweaking makes the low notes “pop”. Setting it low is good but there’s such a small sweet spot with them. Too low is better than too high but not good IMO. I just chug open low strings in front of my rig with a screwdriver in my hand to find it and then set the hex screws when I set them up.


----------



## lewis

vilk said:


> I have an Invader in my Warlock and I super duper hate it. But I'm not good enough to play Nile songs anyway


always sounded muddy to me. I know the output is massive though right?


----------



## Necky379

Oversized ceramic magnet and 2 flanking magnets, huge output. Probably why they’re so sensitive to adjustment. Definitely not for everyone but I’ve always wondered how the people that despise them are setting them up.


----------



## rokket2005

Tone pots are entirely guitar dependant for me. I never use it on my G&Ls, use them all the time on my 594 though.


----------



## BenjaminW

vilk said:


> I have an Invader in my Warlock and I super duper hate it. But I'm not good enough to play Nile songs anyway


You’re probably good enough to play this.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

lewis said:


> always sounded muddy to me.



Invaders and Mesa Boogie Marks my man. It's like the Twilight Zone of riff goodness. You have a loose sounding pickup and a super tight amp bumping uglies. It's like they fill each other's lacking frequencies.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BenjaminW said:


> You’re probably good enough to play this.


HE NEED SOME MILK


----------



## vilk

BenjaminW said:


> You’re probably good enough to play this.


That's... that's some... thing. That's something.

I've seen Nile twice and both times Karl destroyed the earth. I'm not sure why some weirdo tricked him into getting blasted and then taking video of him...


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> - The BTC and PA-2 are about the same price, but theBTC has the treble and bass boost and cut so I bet it would work out better for most people.
> - The difference is the BTC is a concentric pot and the PA-2 is a 2 way toggle switch
> - The PA-2 has 20db of boost and the BTC has 12db of boost/cut, but the thing is that the PA-2 never needs to be cranked that much to get that effect. I bet 12db is perfect amount really.
> - If wanting to replace an OD pedal my guess is that the BTC would be the way to go, however I had no need to upgrade as with the PA-2 all I do is use it as a tight switch by lowering the internal pot to zero boost which adds no boost but changes the feel a little bit. I've mentioned it before somewhere on this site too. I rarely use it nowadays. It's just kinda there at this point but occassionally handy.



The BTC is NOT a boost. It's an EQ. While boosting the high mids can increase perceived output, it doesn't add gain per se. So it's nothing like the PA2.

If you want a boost to spice a mid gain amp then it's not what you're looking for. If your amp has enough gain and you use a boost for its tone shaping capacities (cutting lows, bumping mids) then it works wonderfully and you can get very tight sounds with it. The idea is to not mess with the knobs and leave it fixed.

Added bonus for not ruining the clean channel too.


----------



## c7spheres

Emperoff said:


> The BTC is NOT a boost. It's an EQ. While boosting the high mids can increase perceived output, it doesn't add gain per se. So it's nothing like the PA2.
> 
> If you want a boost to spice a mid gain amp then it's not what you're looking for. If your amp has enough gain and you use a boost for its tone shaping (cutting lows, bumping mids) capacities then it works wonderfully. Added bonus for not ruining the clean channel. The idea is to not mess with the knobs and leave it fixed.


 Good to know. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Shut up it's the same circuit.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah. Always used the Tubescreamer. Get a standard-tune guitar, put the tone at 0, crank the Tubescreamer to 10, and put that into a low gain (or JCM-esque) amp. Instant Into The Crypt of Rays.


I believe the Maxon OD808 is actually a TS-10 circuit IIRC.


----------



## Shask

MASS DEFECT said:


> Invaders and Mesa Boogie Marks my man. It's like the Twilight Zone of riff goodness. You have a loose sounding pickup and a super tight amp bumping uglies. It's like they fill each other's lacking frequencies.


Wasn't Master of Puppets done with the IIC+/Marshall PA and Invader pickups? Right before they went to EMG.

I just took out an Invader actually, lol. I like the pickup though, was just wanting something different in that guitar.


----------



## sirbuh

Unpopular more as a function of omission - Dunlop's Echoplex Preamp is a great pedal


----------



## c7spheres

Shask said:


> Wasn't Master of Puppets done with the IIC+/Marshall PA and Invader pickups? Right before they went to EMG.
> 
> I just took out an Invader actually, lol. I like the pickup though, was just wanting something different in that guitar.


 I don't know but I was surprised to hear Bob Rock in that long as chat ToneTalk had with Freidman and Pete Thorn say that The Black Album was actually a MK3 and they used direct signals, mics, the Haas effect and other techniques to get the tone. I would've neven thought that.


----------



## Matt08642

While we're roasting pickups: A lot of signature pickups are stupid cash grabs where the artist was probably told "This endorsement deal means you have to release a new pickup every few years with your name on it but here's some money"

Not saying I _wouldn't _take it, I just don't think guitarists are all "rediscovering" what tone they want every 4 years in a 35 year career.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> Wasn't Master of Puppets done with the IIC+/Marshall PA and Invader pickups? Right before they went to EMG.
> 
> I just took out an Invader actually, lol. I like the pickup though, was just wanting something different in that guitar.



22-fret custom-built Jackson KV with Duncan Invaders > Mesa Mark IIC+ slave out > Marshall JCM800 (w/ 6550s)'s power section > Marshall 4x12 with G1265s.


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> HE NEED SOME MILK


GET HIM SOME MILK


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Shask said:


> Wasn't Master of Puppets done with the IIC+/Marshall PA and Invader pickups? Right before they went to EMG.
> 
> I just took out an Invader actually, lol. I like the pickup though, was just wanting something different in that guitar.


Im not really sure. Im more familiar with the amps Hetfield used. I always thought that the Het signature chug involves an 81,anyway.


----------



## Shask

MASS DEFECT said:


> Im not really sure. Im more familiar with the amps Hetfield used. I always thought that the Het signature chug involves an 81,anyway.


The 81 didnt start until Justice. (Well, Garage Days EP I think....). MOP definitely has a warmer chunk to it, although I am sure much of that is the recording process also.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Matt08642 said:


> While we're roasting pickups: A lot of signature pickups are stupid cash grabs where the artist was probably told "This endorsement deal means you have to release a new pickup every few years with your name on it but here's some money"
> 
> Not saying I _wouldn't _take it, I just don't think guitarists are all "rediscovering" what tone they want every 4 years in a 35 year career.



I mean who does this other then jp.


----------



## Mathemagician

TedEH said:


> I don't like floyds because they don't feel good to play. They make muting feel different... sort of soft/squishy? My hand never knows quite where to sit to mute properly.



Right on top of the string blocks. Dead middle and you just move your palm up slightly to mute with your picking hand. Also never unmute the lowest string. You ride that bad boi into Palm mute heaven.



Shask said:


> Going back and forth, I would say the biggest negative I notice with Floyds is that the strings feel stiffer. They are harder to bend on a Floyd, so you use smaller strings to compensate. I never noticed this until I went back and forth.



This tightness is one of the best perks. You get extra tension without having to jack up the gauge too much.



BornToLooze said:


> I don't get why you wouldn't want a tone knob on a guitar.
> 
> Most of the time when something's not a bridge pickup lead, they sound better with the tone on 0 for the bridge than they do on the neck pickup. And some neck pickup leads sound better when mess with your tone knob.



IMO the more I lower the tone knob the more the “suck” increases. More tone = Less suck. So why would I ever lower it?

Also on rail pickups:
Just got a Nuno N4 and need to really play with the Bill Lawrence and my amps for a bit. By far the first really comfortable bolt on, I’m absolutely a convert to the Stephen’s extended cutaway. It’s like the embodiment of all these comments, lol.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Shask said:


> Going back and forth, I would say the biggest negative I notice with Floyds is that the strings feel stiffer. They are harder to bend on a Floyd, so you use smaller strings to compensate. I never noticed this until I went back and forth.





Mathemagician said:


> This tightness is one of the best perks. You get extra tension without having to jack up the gauge too much.



That's physically impossible.

On a properly setup floating bridge (and really, any bridge capable of diving to some degree) the bridge sits at zero as the strings' and springs' tension are equal relative to the bridge. When you strike the strings or bend them, you knock the bridge out of balance and pull it forward (raise). That's why double stop bends are difficult to keep in tune, you can pull the entire bridge up while bending as the strings share a common anchor.

On a fixed bridge, there's no moving parts. You'd have to rip the bridge off the guitar to raise or lower pitch like that. There is no "give" offered by the springs.

What's happening is, you go to bend and you don't feel yourself pulling the whole bridge forward, the force is just so minimal, but you do feel the springs trying to bring it back to zero.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah I came up playing on a floyd, love that feeling.


----------



## Adieu

I think I know what's going on

Somebody is either too lazy or untrained to set their Floyd up fully, OR has the action jacked up so the strings don't bottom out on polepieces with deep dives (...wait, would that actually work though???)

Anyway..that "Floyd stiffness" is actually high action


----------



## USMarine75

More terrible opinions in the terrible opinion thread...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> The 81 didnt start until Justice. (Well, Garage Days EP I think....). MOP definitely has a warmer chunk to it, although I am sure much of that is the recording process also.


Yep. James recorded all rhythm tracks with his Jackson KV (although he allegedly played some tracks with Kirk's guitars. Not sure how true this is). During the tour for MoP/righr before Garage, he started loading all his guitars with EMGs. The actual tone of the amps have that MoP sound and tone, but the feel and attack is much more aggressive and tighter. Probably due to the EMGs


----------



## StevenC

sirbuh said:


> Unpopular more as a function of omission - Dunlop's Echoplex Preamp is a great pedal


What? The Echoplex Preamp is massively popular because it's a good cheap version of the most desirable preamp around.


----------



## FearComplex

According to Flemming Rasmussen himself the IIC+ slave out through the Marshall was only for Kirks leads. James' rhythm was all the IIC+


----------



## USMarine75

sirbuh said:


> Unpopular more as a function of omission - Dunlop's Echoplex Preamp is a great pedal





StevenC said:


> What? The Echoplex Preamp is massively popular because it's a good cheap version of the most desirable preamp around.



*unpopular opinions as seen on SSO


----------



## StevenC

USMarine75 said:


> *unpopular opinions as seen on SSO


I guess it fits right in with a bunch of folks saying get rid of your tone _and _volume knobs.


----------



## Shask

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's physically impossible.
> 
> On a properly setup floating bridge (and really, any bridge capable of diving to some degree) the bridge sits at zero as the strings' and springs' tension are equal relative to the bridge. When you strike the strings or bend them, you knock the bridge out of balance and pull it forward (raise). That's why double stop bends are difficult to keep in tune, you can pull the entire bridge up while bending as the strings share a common anchor.
> 
> On a fixed bridge, there's no moving parts. You'd have to rip the bridge off the guitar to raise or lower pitch like that. There is no "give" offered by the springs.
> 
> What's happening is, you go to bend and you don't feel yourself pulling the whole bridge forward, the force is just so minimal, but you do feel the springs trying to bring it back to zero.





Adieu said:


> I think I know what's going on
> 
> Somebody is either too lazy or untrained to set their Floyd up fully, OR has the action jacked up so the strings don't bottom out on polepieces with deep dives (...wait, would that actually work though???)
> 
> Anyway..that "Floyd stiffness" is actually high action



I remember it has been shown many times that Floyds have lower perceived tension on bending strings. This is because there is no string behind the nut. On a regular nut, the string can glide a bit, so the string behind the nut adds length which effects the perceived tension when bending. The locking nut basically eliminates that. This is why guitars with a reversed headstock and no locking nut are extremely bendy and rubber band feeling. There are several explanations of the science of it out there, and I can say I definitely feel it.


----------



## USMarine75

StevenC said:


> I guess it fits right in with a bunch of folks saying get rid of your tone _and _volume knobs.



True, but hey, it's the same people that praise fuckboys like Dines or YT demoers that demo thousands of amps, pedals, and guitars only to get one tone.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Shask said:


> I remember it has been shown many times that Floyds have higher perceived tension on bending strings. This is because there is no string behind the nut. On a regular nut, the string can glide a bit, so the string behind the nut adds length which effects the perceived tension when bending. The locking nut basically eliminates that. This is why guitars with a reversed headstock and no locking nut are extremely bendy and rubber band feeling. There are several explanations of the science of it out there, and I can say I definitely feel it.



it's the opposite. lower perceived tension.


----------



## Shask

diagrammatiks said:


> it's the opposite. lower perceived tension.


You are right. Right explanation, wrong word, lol. I just got up here.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Shask said:


> I remember it has been shown many times that Floyds have higher perceived tension on bending strings. This is because there is no string behind the nut. On a regular nut, the string can glide a bit, so the string behind the nut adds length which effects the perceived tension when bending. The locking nut basically eliminates that. This is why guitars with a reversed headstock and no locking nut are extremely bendy and rubber band feeling. There are several explanations of the science of it out there, and I can say I definitely feel it.



The elasticity of the springs negates any lack of fractional string length elasticity between nut and tuner post. You're trading fractions of multimeters of stretch for centimeters of spring movement. 

This was all started by an interview with Dino a million years ago, but folks forget the bridges on his guitars were blocked in place or of the fixed variety, not fully floating trems. 

It's a different feel, fixed vs. trem, but there's no actual gain in tension, static or otherwise.


----------



## Shask

Shask said:


> You are right. Right explanation, wrong word, lol. I just got up here.


EDIT: I think I was right the first time now that I think about it. The locking nut has more perceived tension than the regular nut due to the lack of string behind the nut.


----------



## Shask

MaxOfMetal said:


> The elasticity of the springs negates any lack of fractional string length elasticity between nut and tuner post. You're trading fractions of multimeters of stretch for centimeters of spring movement.
> 
> This was all started by an interview with Dino a million years ago, but folks forget the bridges on his guitars were blocked in place or of the fixed variety, not fully floating trems.
> 
> It's a different feel, fixed vs. trem, but there's no actual gain in tension, static or otherwise.


I definitely think Floyds have more bending tension. Not really the bridge, but because of the locking nut. I can feel it easily.

A quick test I have done, is I have a Floyd that is completely locked down. The guitar is reverse headstock, which makes this more noticeable. Sit and bend/hammer notes around the 3rd fret and lock and unlock the nut. You can feel that as soon as you lock the nut the string is not as easy to bend. It is very noticeable, especially on something like the D and G strings. It is most noticeable on huge bends.

I use lighter gauge strings on my Floyd guitars for this reason.

If it was all in the springs then something like a PRS trem would feel tighter also, but they don't. They are more bendable than a Floyd also. I have a PRS with the regular trem, and a PRS with a Floyd, and the one with a Floyd is stiffer to play.


----------



## Emperoff

This Floyd tension debate reminds me of people ditching a condom brand because they're "too tight", in favour of some other brand that other people ditch for being "too tight" (and prefering the first one). 

I'm in the "bends feel easier on a Floyd" camp.


----------



## Necky379

Tone controls are like condoms. Useful sometimes, necessary others, but with the right setup nothing beats raw dogging an input.


----------



## lewis

Emperoff said:


> This Floyd tension debate reminds me of people ditching a condom brand because they're "too tight", in favour of some other brand that other people ditch for being "too tight" (and prefering the first one).
> 
> I'm in the "bends feel easier on a Floyd" camp.


just on this real quick - ive never understood the "too tight" argument.

helps get your throb on better


----------



## c7spheres

- I think maybe what people are trying to say regarding Floyds and tension is that it takes more tension physically to bend the string to the pitch where you want it compared to a fixed bridge.
- It's because the springs stretch causing the trem to dive when the string is bent, which makes the string slack more which works against the pitch of the string changing upward so you gotta put more effort into the left hand bend in order to get the string to bend up to the same pitch as you would with a fixed bridge. 
- On the other hand depending on how you change up the spring tension and string gauges this will affect the amount of left hand effort needed with a FLoyd but likely will still take more effort than a fixed bridge. 

- I find Floyds feel easier to do bends on but the actual pitch doesn't change until you bend the string more than you would have to with a fixed bridge. So bends feel easier on a Floyd but actually take more effort. Keep in mind my setup involves 5 high tension springs and fat strings and high action. 

- Floyds are easier and harder to do bends on at the same time.


----------



## potatohead33

Thought of another one

The Jackson Kelly is the best non-strat or non-singlecut shape there is. Especially in emerald green.


----------



## WarMachine

potatohead33 said:


> Thought of another one
> 
> The Jackson Kelly is the best non-strat or non-singlecut shape there is. Especially in emerald green.


I just wish the body was bigger/wider. Although i'm used to ML's and my Z lol.


----------



## BornToLooze

lewis said:


> just on this real quick - *ive never understood the "too tight" argument.*
> 
> helps get your throb on better



I'm sorry


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Is there particularly a reason why parametric EQs are rare, and if you can find one (rack or pedal) they are damned expensive?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Is there particularly a reason why parametric EQs are rare, and if you can find one (rack or pedal) they are damned expensive?



They're more complex and thus take more resources to engineer. The payoff is something much more flexible and powerful.

Though, you rarely need that level of control in a live guitar rig, so they're mostly aimed as recording fixtures.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> They're more complex and thus take more resources to engineer. The payoff is something much more flexible and powerful.
> 
> Though, you rarely need that level of control in a live guitar rig, so they're mostly aimed as recording fixtures.


I see. I'd like one as a boost, but 180 bucks for a Boss PQ4 is a bit much.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I see. I'd like one as a boost, but 180 bucks for a Boss PQ4 is a bit much.



I don't see the point. Just massive overkill considering you can grab a decent graphic EQ for less, unless there's an oddly specific problem frequency you're trying to get around. 

A DBX 31 band is like $50.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't see the point. Just massive overkill considering you can grab a decent graphic EQ for less, unless there's an oddly specific problem frequency you're trying to get around.
> 
> A DBX 31 band is like $50.


Maybe I should get dual 15 band and DBX 266XL instead. I think I saw some 266XLs on Reverb for like 75 bucks.


----------



## c7spheres

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Maybe I should get dual 15 band and DBX 266XL instead. I think I saw some 266XLs on Reverb for like 75 bucks.


 There's older gear out there in the rack arena such as the old Rocktron and Randall Eq's They'll still be in the $200+ ish dollar range but will give more features that just a basic eq pedal. THe Replifex I use has a 4 band parametric and a bunch of effects, channel swithing etc and can be had for about $250 in excellent condition.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

My unpopular opinion of the day is...

That no matter who builds it and to what level of tolerance, there’s no way that a Fender Telecaster is worth some of the prices that some of the custom shop pieces are being advertised at. 

Y’know, the ones where they’re over twice the price of a Suhr Classic T...


----------



## budda

_MonSTeR_ said:


> My unpopular opinion of the day is...
> 
> That no matter who builds it and to what level of tolerance, there’s no way that a Fender Telecaster is worth some of the prices that some of the custom shop pieces are being advertised at.
> 
> Y’know, the ones where they’re over twice the price of a Suhr Classic T...



Things are worth what people will pay for them. And custom shop guitars sell .


----------



## _MonSTeR_

budda said:


> Things are worth what people will pay for them. And custom shop guitars sell .



I know, I know... but this is the UNpopular opinions on gear thread


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

WarMachine said:


> I just wish the body was bigger/wider. Although i'm used to ML's and my Z lol.


MLs are the superior shape. These uncultured fools don't know the true way.


----------



## budda

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I know, I know... but this is the UNpopular opinions on gear thread



Most would agree with you. Unpopular would be saying most 10k guitars smoke their mass produced counterparts and owners of mass market guitars are plebs.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

budda said:


> Most would agree with you. Unpopular would be saying most 10k guitars smoke their mass produced counterparts and owners of mass market guitars are plebs.



I must be spending too much time on TGP then


----------



## diagrammatiks

budda said:


> Most would agree with you. Unpopular would be saying most 10k guitars smoke their mass produced counterparts and owners of mass market guitars are plebs.



pleb doesn't have to be a dirty word. just have fun with it.


----------



## Emperoff

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I see. I'd like one as a boost, but 180 bucks for a Boss PQ4 is a bit much.



Just get the PQ3B (Bass version). Much cheaper and you get three parametric bands instead of two. I use one in the loop as my solo boost and works wonders.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> Just get the PQ3B (Bass version). Much cheaper and you get three parametric bands instead of two. I use one in the loop as my solo boost and works wonders.


Only one I could find was out of the US and like 150+.


----------



## Emperoff

Ok, here's another one:

Pickup rings are *ugly as sin* and should be banned from this world. They just have no reason to exist anymore and there are plenty of more elegant solutions that won't ruin your nice figured top with 8 extra holes on it. Every time I see like a 5A maple top with pickup rings I just shake my head.

With 7 strings they just look even more retarded, as body size remains the same but pickups and rings get bigger.


----------



## WarMachine

Eyebolts are better strap pegs than strap pegs. There. I said it. I don't for the life of me understand why guitars do not come standard with eyebolts. All you need is some spring clip carabiners and you have a strap lock that is cheap and wont quit.


----------



## Flappydoodle

lewis said:


> just on this real quick - ive never understood the "too tight" argument.
> 
> helps get your throb on better



I think this depends on the shape of your dick and also whether circumcised or not.

My unpopular opinions are:

1. Mesa Rectifiers rectos suck. All of them.

2. Expensive guitars are almost always better.


----------



## Adieu

...I think that also depends on the shape of your dick


----------



## Science_Penguin

Emperoff said:


> Ok, here's another one:
> 
> Pickup rings are *ugly as sin* and should be banned from this world. They just have no reason to exist anymore and there are plenty of more elegant solutions that won't ruin your nice figured top with 8 extra holes on it. Every time I see like a 5A maple top with pickup rings I just shake my head.
> 
> With 7 strings they just look even more retarded, as body size remains the same but pickups and rings get bigger.



We are the Pickguards. Lower your picks and surrender your guitars. We will add 11 additional holes to accommodate our electronics. Your figured woods will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.


----------



## Adieu

Ive put pickup rings OVER pickguards before.

It looked badass.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Adieu said:


> Ive put pickup rings OVER pickguards before.
> 
> It looked badass.






We find this assimilation... acceptable.


----------



## budda

Good lord no


----------



## _MonSTeR_

WarMachine said:


> Eyebolts are better strap pegs than strap pegs. There. I said it. I don't for the life of me understand why guitars do not come standard with eyebolts. All you need is some spring clip carabiners and you have a strap lock that is cheap and wont quit.



I never understood why, in the early 90s when virtually every Ibanez guy was using Dimarzio cliplock straps, Ibanez didn’t just put them on there as standard. Mean cost, damage during shipping and all that aside, but still...


----------



## lewis

Science_Penguin said:


> We are the Pickguards. Lower your picks and surrender your guitars. We will add 11 additional holes to accommodate our electronics. Your figured woods will adapt to service us. Resistance is futile.



Transparent pickguards say hi


----------



## Science_Penguin

lewis said:


> Transparent pickguards say hi


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

WarMachine said:


> Eyebolts are better strap pegs than strap pegs. There. I said it. I don't for the life of me understand why guitars do not come standard with eyebolts. All you need is some spring clip carabiners and you have a strap lock that is cheap and wont quit.



THIS. It's cheap, easy, and looks cool


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Eyebolt + industrial chain = quick, cheap, and easy strap and lock system that will NEVER fail


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Emperoff said:


> Ok, here's another one:
> 
> Pickup rings are *ugly as sin* and should be banned from this world. They just have no reason to exist anymore and there are plenty of more elegant solutions that won't ruin your nice figured top with 8 extra holes on it. Every time I see like a 5A maple top with pickup rings I just shake my head.
> 
> With 7 strings they just look even more retarded, as body size remains the same but pickups and rings get bigger.



Isn't this a popular opinion? Alot of superstrats come with pickups mounted to the body, since it's fashionable right now. 
But nah. Function over looks every damn time. The ability to qucikly adjust pickup height beats the neat look. Aged pickup rings look good on classic shapes too. Weird for an 80s shredder or a 57 paul to not have pup rings.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Adieu said:


> Ive put pickup rings OVER pickguards before.
> 
> It looked badass.


I'm a fan. Doesn't one of the guys from Iron Maiden have their strats like that?


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm a fan. Doesn't one of the guys from Iron Maiden have their strats like that?



Yup, Dave Murray. At least, he used to before he switched over to Duncan Hot Rails.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> Yup, Dave Murray. At least, he used to before he switched over to Duncan Hot Rails.


I thought it was Dave, but also remembered he used all singles, so I was having a "does not compute" moment as a result. I think he went to singles so that each of them had more distinctive tone and added something different to the sound.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

His Paul Kossof Strat had that layout. Everything after was standard.


----------



## Mathemagician

Science_Penguin said:


> View attachment 82976
> 
> 
> We find this assimilation... acceptable.



Make it black.


----------



## Shask

MASS DEFECT said:


> Isn't this a popular opinion? Alot of superstrats come with pickups mounted to the body, since it's fashionable right now.
> But nah. Function over looks every damn time. The ability to qucikly adjust pickup height beats the neat look. Aged pickup rings look good on classic shapes too. Weird for an 80s shredder or a 57 paul to not have pup rings.


I like pickup rings. They are the easiest to deal with out of the various methods.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> I like pickup rings. They are the easiest to deal with out of the various methods.



Seconding this. Also some shapes look WRONG without them.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Seconding this. Also some shapes look WRONG without them.


Basically any Gibson actually.


----------



## oniduder

i don't think that i like ENGL amps, i've tried, but i can't, i wonder if they have the same mystique in Europe or Germany in particular vs the enthusiasm they have in the US, i am saying they're middle of the road with "boutique" pricing, 

and the bottom line is they ain't that great

come at me?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BenjaminW said:


> Basically any Gibson actually.



Which is exactly what I wanted to say. And is true.  Les Pauls, Vs, Explorers, SGs, ES-335s, etc... all look wrong with no rings.


----------



## Emperoff

oniduder said:


> i don't think that i like ENGL amps, i've tried, but i can't, i wonder if they have the same mystique in Europe or Germany in particular vs the enthusiasm they have in the US



Nope, they don't. You see them everywhere and they got popular in the first place because they were cheap and didn't need shit to pull out super tight hi-gain tones, while also having useable clean channels. You can get the cheapest models around 300-400€ used and you have a workhorse rig already. My main amp is an ENGL Sovereign combo that sold for roughly 2000€ new and I got for 900€ (road case included).

Diezel and Bogner are the german boutique brands, not ENGL.


----------



## Choop

Emperoff said:


> Nope, they don't. You see them everywhere and they got popular in the first place because they were cheap and didn't need shit to pull out super tight hi-gain tones, while also having useable clean channels. You can get the cheapest models around 300-400€ used and you have a workhorse rig already. My main amp is an ENGL Sovereign combo that sold for roughly 2000€ new and I got for 900€ (road case included).
> 
> Diezel and Bogner are the german boutique brands, not ENGL.



I always thought ENGL amps were sort of comparable value-wise in Europe to how Peaveys are in the US--or maybe somewhere between Peavey and Mesa, closer to the Peavey side of being affordable workhorse amps that can do high gain well.


----------



## Emperoff

Choop said:


> I always thought ENGL amps were sort of comparable value-wise in Europe to how Peaveys are in the US--or maybe somewhere between Peavey and Mesa, closer to the Peavey side of being affordable workhorse amps that can do high gain well.



*Kinda* if you think only about tube amps, which is pretty much the only thing ENGL does. Peavey as a brand sells a truckload of different stuff.

ENGL cabs are awesome, though.


----------



## potatohead33

I always want to pronounce it like the acronym, E-N-G-L, not together like a word.


----------



## lewis

Science_Penguin said:


> View attachment 82977


had a crush on her when i grew up watching this!


----------



## oniduder

yeah i figured that the allure in europe and especially germany didn't translate as well as the other brands mentioned, and i can't disagree, except to say i already said i'm not a huge fan of diezels and bogner is something i haven't had the chance or ever felt the need to get

so whatever, cragislist europe has invader for 500 euros or whatever not shocking


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Eyebolt + industrial chain = quick, cheap, and easy strap and lock system that will NEVER fail


I did this for years lol. I grabbed a 3/8 inch log chain, grinded it down to the size i needed and was good to go.


----------



## vilk

Behringer SF300 sucks.

You'd think that saying the cheapest fuzz pedal money can buy sucks wouldn't be such an unpopular opinion, but I swear if you ever go on reddit you can hardly find a pedalboard without one.

On the subject, Dopethrone is one of the crummier Electric Wizard guitar tones (I say this as a fan of the band). Everyone says "SF300 is Dopethrone in a pedal!" It's not, and IMO based on comparisons I've heard it's not even a perfect FZ-2 clone.


----------



## Emperoff

oniduder said:


> yeah i figured that the allure in europe and especially germany didn't translate as well as the other brands mentioned, and i can't disagree, except to say i already said i'm not a huge fan of diezels and bogner is something i haven't had the chance or ever felt the need to get
> 
> so whatever, cragislist europe has invader for 500 euros or whatever not shocking



Problem is Diezel is only known for the VH4 and the Herbert, reason why they don't release more "classic" amps. They don't sell.

The Schmidt was probably the best sounding one they ever made, but sold like shit. People looking for those amps would never consider a Diezel, and people looking for a Diezel would never consider those amps.

The Paul is derivative from the Schmidt and sounds pretty great on the clips I've heard, but replacing the Mid shaping control for a digital reverb was a damn stupid idea. Specially compared to the tube driven reverb of the Schmidt.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

For the longest time I always thought that Engl was one of those super-bootique br00tz brands that everyone strived to go for high gain shit. Always assumed the Engl SE was the be all, end all of high gain amps. Mostly from catalogs and shit.

Then I go on gear forums for the first time and see guys like Lasse Lammert shit-talking most Engl amps (except for the Straight) and find out how much more cheap they are in Europe. Was weird.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> For the longest time I always thought that Engl was one of those super-bootique br00tz brands that everyone strived to go for high gain shit. Always assumed the Engl SE was the be all, end all of high gain amps. Mostly from catalogs and shit.
> 
> Then I go on gear forums for the first time and see guys like Lasse Lammert shit-talking most Engl amps (except for the Straight) and find out how much more cheap they are in Europe. Was weird.



Folks only started hating on ENGL when they became easier to get in North America. 

I don't think they're the greatest amps, but they're not awful. Considering they were used on pretty much every technical metal album from the early 00's, they've earned thier keep. 

Expectations are just so high that it's easy to not live up to. They have thier quirks, and have made some duds. 

The easiest way to look at it is they're the European Mesa.


----------



## c7spheres

Flappydoodle said:


> I think this depends on the shape of your dick and also whether circumcised or not.
> 
> My unpopular opinions are:
> 
> 1. Mesa Rectifiers rectos suck. All of them.
> 
> 2. Expensive guitars are almost always better.



Heretic!


----------



## narad

Emperoff said:


> Diezel and Bogner are the german boutique brands, not ENGL.



Bogner's more of a german boutique brand than Engl, and Bogner's not even a german brand.


----------



## Emperoff

narad said:


> Bogner's more of a german boutique brand than engl, and they're not even in germany.



Wasn't that what I said?


----------



## narad

Emperoff said:


> Wasn't that what I said?



I made it a bit clearer.


----------



## BenjaminW

Emperoff said:


> Problem is Diezel is only known for the VH4 and the Herbert


I've wanted to try out a VH4, but I get the feeling that they're hit or miss in that people either really like them, or people really hate them.


HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Then I go on gear forums for the first time and see guys like Lasse Lammert shit-talking most Engl amps (except for the Straight) and find out how much more cheap they are in Europe. Was weird.


Actually unpopular opinion: Lasse Lammert really knows how to make a JCM 800 2203 sound good.


----------



## rokket2005

BenjaminW said:


> I've wanted to try out a VH4, but I get the feeling that they're hit or miss in that people either really like them, or people really hate them.



I think it's more that people think/expect the VH4 to be a grindy modern metal machine, and then they play one and realize it's not.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Emperoff said:


> Pickup rings are *ugly as sin* and should be banned from this world. They just have no reason to exist anymore and there are plenty of more elegant solutions that won't ruin your nice figured top with 8 extra holes on it. Every time I see like a 5A maple top with pickup rings I just shake my head.



I've always though hating on pickup rings was a popular opinion.  Reasons are always aesthetics but whatever. 

I do agree that Gibsons need them. Seeing Les Pauls (non Special and Juniors with P90s) without rings just looks wrong.

But I'm a pickup ring guy and I'll take their functional benefits over form.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Folks only started hating on ENGL when they became easier to get in North America.
> 
> I don't think they're the greatest amps, but they're not awful. Considering they were used on pretty much every technical metal album from the early 00's, they've earned thier keep.
> 
> Expectations are just so high that it's easy to not live up to. They have thier quirks, and have made some duds.
> 
> The easiest way to look at it is they're the European Mesa.


I think it has a lot to do with being sold at a much higher price point than the quality of the amp.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think it has a lot to do with being sold at a much higher price point than the quality of the amp.



To don't really buy that.

I think they're priced fine considering the tone and feature set, mostly. They're not cheap, but they're an imported product and have a distinct sound.

They just don't have that mystique anymore and that's a huge factor driving amp sales.


----------



## StevenC

BenjaminW said:


> I've wanted to try out a VH4, but I get the feeling that they're hit or miss in that people either really like them, or people really hate them.


SSO is the only place I've ever heard bad things about the VH4. And most of the things I've ever heard tend to be "underwhelming for the price" from Americans who only want to boost their 5150s.


rokket2005 said:


> I think it's more that people think/expect the VH4 to be a grindy modern metal machine, and then they play one and realize it's not.


The VH4 can definitely be a grindy modern metal amp.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> SSO is the only place I've ever heard bad things about the VH4. And most of the things I've ever heard tend to be "underwhelming for the price" from Americans who only want to boost their 5150s.
> 
> The VH4 can definitely be a grindy modern metal amp.



BANG.


----------



## narad

StevenC said:


> SSO is the only place I've ever heard bad things about the VH4. And most of the things I've ever heard tend to be "underwhelming for the price" from Americans who only want to boost their 5150s.
> 
> The VH4 can definitely be a grindy modern metal amp.



To be fair, man my boosted 5150 makes me smile so much more than the VH4.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> To be fair, man my boosted 5150 makes me smile so much more than the VH4.



American confirmed.


----------



## A-Branger

soapbar pickups shouldnt keep being a thing. I get the why they happened, and why companies like Fishmans are doing them. But no new guitar should come with them anymore.

Normal pickups with tabs like a 6 string EMG looks far better than a soapbar (talking about 7 and 8 string pickups here btw)

they serve no purpose other than making people believe the magnets go right up till the edge of the cover, when in reality the corners are empty space with a "normal pickup with tabs" under the soap cover 







also covered pickups > open bobbins 

and Zebra pickups > single color bobbins 

and white/black zebra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cream/black zebra


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

A-Branger said:


> soapbar pickups shouldnt keep being a thing. I get the why they happened, and why companies like Fishmans are doing them. But no new guitar should come with them anymore.
> 
> Normal pickups with tabs like a 6 string EMG looks far better than a soapbar (talking about 7 and 8 string pickups here btw)
> 
> they serve no purpose other than making people believe the magnets go right up till the edge of the cover, when in reality the corners are empty space with a "normal pickup with tabs" under the soap cover



This isn't an unpopular opinion.  this is more of everyone being forced to work around EMG's laziness. 

But actually on the 707 actually does go all the way to the end of the tabs. The 707s coils are based on the EMG 35 bass pickup, since they pretty much just took an EMG bass pickup and tweaked it to sound better with guitar.


----------



## A-Branger

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This isn't an unpopular opinion.  this is more of everyone being forced to work around EMG's laziness.
> 
> But actually on the 707 actually does go all the way to the end of the tabs. The 707s coils are based on the EMG 35 bass pickup, since they pretty much just took an EMG bass pickup and tweaked it to sound better with guitar.



yeah I know they are a thing because they re-designed a bass pickup for a 7 string and never bothered to make a 7 string pickup after that 

but wasnt aware that the coils go all the way, I always were under te impresion that they kept the covers but stuck a regular 7 string pickup under it


----------



## GunpointMetal

A-Branger said:


> soapbar pickups shouldnt keep being a thing. I get the why they happened, and why companies like Fishmans are doing them. But no new guitar should come with them anymore.
> 
> Normal pickups with tabs like a 6 string EMG looks far better than a soapbar (talking about 7 and 8 string pickups here btw)
> 
> they serve no purpose other than making people believe the magnets go right up till the edge of the cover, when in reality the corners are empty space with a "normal pickup with tabs" under the soap cover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also covered pickups > open bobbins
> 
> and Zebra pickups > single color bobbins
> 
> and white/black zebra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cream/black zebra


I wonder if that's why my high E string is quieter on my 909s. I guess the string is still inside the screws, but both of my guitars with 909s, I can see in my DAW on a DI track that the high E is like 1/3 the energy of the other plain strings.


----------



## Adieu

A-Branger said:


> yeah I know they are a thing because they re-designed a bass pickup for a 7 string and never bothered to make a 7 string pickup after that
> 
> but wasnt aware that the coils go all the way, I always were under te impresion that they kept the covers but stuck a regular 7 string pickup under it



I don't think there WAS such a thing as a "regular 7 string pickup" when the 707 hit the market... it was very early days.

And yeah, they used the same housing as EMG, Ibanez, Might Mite, and Cort bass soapboars


----------



## diagrammatiks

A-Branger said:


> soapbar pickups shouldnt keep being a thing. I get the why they happened, and why companies like Fishmans are doing them. But no new guitar should come with them anymore.
> 
> Normal pickups with tabs like a 6 string EMG looks far better than a soapbar (talking about 7 and 8 string pickups here btw)
> 
> they serve no purpose other than making people believe the magnets go right up till the edge of the cover, when in reality the corners are empty space with a "normal pickup with tabs" under the soap cover
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> also covered pickups > open bobbins
> 
> and Zebra pickups > single color bobbins
> 
> and white/black zebra >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cream/black zebra



hard pass. everything should be full soap bars.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Adieu said:


> I don't think there WAS such a thing as a "regular 7 string pickup" when the 707 hit the market... it was very early days.
> 
> And yeah, they used the same housing as EMG, Ibanez, Might Mite, and Cort bass soapboars



DiMarzio had the Blaze. Hell, Dino Cazares was using the Blaze in his Ibbys before he and EMGworked on the 707.


----------



## Matt08642

Another possibly unpopular EMG-related opinion: 707s are beastly and do metal and heaviness better than a lot of newer pickups

For instance, I think the SDs sound like hot trash in this video: 

It's also interesting to see people (in general, not in this thread specifically) recommend the 81-7 as "what the 707 was supposed to be", but back in the day it was also considered garbage:






Makes me think peoples perception of gear/how good it can be is heavily biased by the current "sound" of the music they like

I'm sure my bias towards the 707 also has to do with Jeff Loomis using it on all the Nevermore albums I had on repeat when I was 14


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Matt08642 said:


> Another possibly unpopular EMG-related opinion: 707s are beastly and do metal and heaviness better than a lot of newer pickups
> 
> For instance, I think the SDs sound like hot trash in this video:
> 
> It's also interesting to see people (in general, not in this thread specifically) recommend the 81-7 as "what the 707 was supposed to be", but back in the day it was also considered garbage:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Makes me think peoples perception of gear/how good it can be is heavily biased by the current "sound" of the music they like
> 
> I'm sure my bias towards the 707 also has to do with Jeff Loomis using it on all the Nevermore albums I had on repeat when I was 14




I think the 81 gets a lot more love today than it did back in the day, to be honest. Going back to forum posts around that era in general, the 81 was persona non grata. The 85 was all the rage because of bands like Killswitch Engage.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

WarMachine said:


> I did this for years lol. I grabbed a 3/8 inch log chain, grinded it down to the size i needed and was good to go.


I like you. You're good people


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Fortin amps sound like shit and the only reason people cum themselves over those amps is because it's "boutique" aka not as popular and extra money. Same as ENGL. People spend a bunch of money on something so they pretend it's the holy grail.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Fortin also apparently makes his money on others designs.


----------



## Necky379

I was a big time 81-7 hater, and I’m a big time lover of EMG’s. The problem was I had everything dialed in for 707’s. 707’s are beastly, 81-7’s are beastly. 707’s through a rig I’ve dialed in for 81-7’s won’t have enough mid range will have too much low end. 81-7’s through a rig I’ve dialed in for 707’s will sound super harsh and scratchy. I commented on a recent pickup shootout thread and rated the pickups tested. I noted at the end that although Fishman Moderns were my least favorite pickup tested they would probably rank differently with different settings. So to add to my unpopular opinion contributions:

Settings that “work with everything” don’t exist. You can’t optimize a rig for wildly different guitars.


----------



## laxu

I'm getting pretty jaded on high gain amps. Every time someone posts some "amazing killer tone" new amp, I feel like it's just the same old stuff but with a bigger bass cut in front so it stays tight. Also why the hell do they keep making them as 3-4 channel amps when usually only one of the channels is really good? You get entirely forgettable low to midgain tones and a halfway decent clean channel. Then you get a "lead" channel that has so much gain that anything above 10 o'clock is unusable.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I love the 707 too. Never bothered to change the stock one in my Jackson COW7 since it works. Can get me those Nevermore sound for sure.


----------



## Matt08642

Necky379 said:


> I was a big time 81-7 hater, and I’m a big time lover of EMG’s. The problem was I had everything dialed in for 707’s. 707’s are beastly, 81-7’s are beastly. 707’s through a rig I’ve dialed in for 81-7’s won’t have enough mid range will have too much low end. 81-7’s through a rig I’ve dialed in for 707’s will sound super harsh and scratchy. I commented on a recent pickup shootout thread and rated the pickups tested. I noted at the end that although Fishman Moderns were my least favorite pickup tested they would probably rank differently with different settings. So to add to my unpopular opinion contributions:
> 
> Settings that “work with everything” don’t exist. You can’t optimize a rig for wildly different guitars.



This is why I like when gear channels on youtube upload DIs - I can compare them to my own DIs played in to my amp and adjust accordingly.

Hell, I even experience this with my own pickups. I'll play on one guitar so much that when I switch to another the same amp settings don't sound right at all.


----------



## Shask

MASS DEFECT said:


> I love the 707 too. Never bothered to change the stock one in my Jackson COW7 since it works. Can get me those Nevermore sound for sure.


I have always liked the 707s in my Hellraiser, and definitely give the Nevermore sound. I think the only thing I struggle with them on, is it seems like it is very easy for them to sound nasal, or like squaky or something. Like when you use 2 Tubescreamers back to back.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

EMGs have their place and they excel at what they do. Fishmans aren't terrible but they aren't special.

Stainless frets just aren't that big of a deal. To pass on an instrument you would otherwise love because they have nickel-silver frets or whatever seems pedantic.

Bolt-on is a great construction method, by far the easiest to service and most practical for factory assembly. Modern heel design has eliminated their biggest flaw, IMO.

Floyds are not complicated, they make great hardtails when blocked and are one of the more important guitar-related inventions in the last 40 years. On that topic, Gotoh makes better Floyds than Schaller (including the OFR) and they're less expensive.


----------



## potatohead33

laxu said:


> I'm getting pretty jaded on high gain amps. Every time someone posts some "amazing killer tone" new amp, I feel like it's just the same old stuff but with a bigger bass cut in front so it stays tight. Also why the hell do they keep making them as 3-4 channel amps when usually only one of the channels is really good? You get entirely forgettable low to midgain tones and a halfway decent clean channel. Then you get a "lead" channel that has so much gain that anything above 10 o'clock is unusable.



So what you're saying is you want everything to be a JCM800


----------



## oneblackened

People in general mistake "dry" for "tight". Fryettes aren't tight - they're dry. TC Preamp clones don't make your amp tight - they make it dry. There's a difference. You can have an amp react quickly without dumping everything below 300hz just fine - shit, I run my KSR unboosted and I can't imagine needing it tighter than it is, and I still have authority to the bottom end.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

potatohead33 said:


> So what you're saying is you want everything to be a JCM800


A JCM800 isn't "versatile," in the sense that it has a lot of tones available and channel switching, etc, but it is "versatile," in the sense that you can grab 100 guitarists, a rather large box full of boosts (20 or so), and you'll get a lot of great tones out of it that'll cover a lot of subgenres in the rock, metal, and even some blues (not your tan pant type of blues dudes, though).


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> A JCM800 isn't "versatile," in the sense that it has a lot of tones available and channel switching, etc, but it is "versatile," in the sense that you can grab 100 guitarists, a rather large box full of boosts (20 or so), and you'll get a lot of great tones out of it that'll cover a lot of subgenres in the rock, metal, and even some blues (not your tan pant type of blues dudes, though).


I was gonna make another post about EMGs on here, but you really nailed it on the head here with what’s great about JCM 800s. Multi channel amps are great because you can have channels that you can switch back and forth from tones or channels that have really sparkly cleans or the most br00tz metal tone that you think sounds like a Mesa, but instead sounds like a Line 6 Spider (sarcasm of course). 

But there’s something great about the simplicity of the JCM 800’s controls that again covers a wide range of sub genres. Call me old but that’s just how I feel.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> I was gonna make another post about EMGs on here, but you really nailed it on the head here with what’s great about JCM 800s. Multi channel amps are great because you can have channels that you can switch back and forth from tones or channels that have really sparkly cleans or the most br00tz metal tone that you think sounds like a Mesa, but instead sounds like a Line 6 Spider (sarcasm of course).
> 
> But there’s something great about the simplicity of the JCM 800’s controls that again covers a wide range of sub genres. Call me old but that’s just how I feel.


Hyperbole more than sarcasm.

Hell, just give me a two channel (both the same) JCM800 with a boost (think Jube) and a TS9 or Wylde Overdrive out front, and I'd be golden.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Hell, just give me a two channel (both the same) JCM800 with a boost (think Jube) and a TS9 or Wylde Overdrive out front, and I'd be golden.


Or a modded 2203. Then we’re talking.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> Or a modded 2203. Then we’re talking.


If I was designing an amp in this hypothetical situation, it'd be a 4406 (cuz two identical channels, get it?), a boost similar to a Jube (can be used on both channels), and maybe 3 or 4 useful switches for "modding" the amp. This way, I could, supposing this hypothetical situation came to fruition, set one channel up to be relatively lower gain, EQ'd to sound differently, and then higher gain. React well to guitar's volume and tone controls, ability to adjust the gain by switching the boost on the amp on/off, switching any outboard boosts on/off (ie, such as an OD pedal or boost in the guitar), etc. Also, probably just completely recreate the Rockman/Scholz Powersoak.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If I was designing an amp in this hypothetical situation, it'd be a 4406 (cuz two identical channels, get it?), a boost similar to a Jube (can be used on both channels), and maybe 3 or 4 useful switches for "modding" the amp. This way, I could, supposing this hypothetical situation came to fruition, set one channel up to be relatively lower gain, EQ'd to sound differently, and then higher gain. React well to guitar's volume and tone controls, ability to adjust the gain by switching the boost on the amp on/off, switching any outboard boosts on/off (ie, such as an OD pedal or boost in the guitar), etc. Also, probably just completely recreate the Rockman/Scholz Powersoak.


I thought about modding my 800 when I got it because I didn’t think it would sound good stock. Turns out I actually don’t need to mod it since I spent a good month or two constantly changing amp settings and what not. It’s great for me to do that because it helps me develop a tone I like from my ears and not just take some amp settings off of YouTube or whatever and run with that.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> I thought about modding my 800 when I got it because I didn’t think it would sound good stock. Turns out I actually don’t need to mod it since I spent a good month or two constantly changing amp settings and what not. It’s great for me to do that because it helps me develop a tone I like from my ears and not just take some amp settings off of YouTube or whatever and run with that.


Well, they'd be a three way switch. Mod 1 / Stock / Mod 2. One of the mods per switch would be more obvious, while the other mod would be more subtle.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well, they'd be a three way switch. Mod 1 / Stock / Mod 2. One of the mods per switch would be more obvious, while the other mod would be more subtle.


I thought of getting the HG-Jose Mod from Voodoo Amps, but I wasn’t looking to send my 800 away for a while. I also have no experience when it comes to amp modding and what not. 

But hey, I feel like a stock 800 can do the job just as well as one that’s modded.


----------



## WarMachine

laxu said:


> I'm getting pretty jaded on high gain amps. Every time someone posts some "amazing killer tone" new amp, I feel like it's just the same old stuff but with a bigger bass cut in front so it stays tight. Also why the hell do they keep making them as 3-4 channel amps when usually only one of the channels is really good? You get entirely forgettable low to midgain tones and a halfway decent clean channel. Then you get a "lead" channel that has so much gain that anything above 10 o'clock is unusable.


Wouldn't it be nice to have an amp that added enough bass cut to match an increase in gain? Like, cranking it up actually cleans up the low end? Time to call Mike Fortin and have him start building my amp..


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

WarMachine said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to have an amp that added enough bass cut to match an increase in gain? Like, cranking it up actually cleans up the low end? Time to call Mike Fortin and have him start building my amp..



Is he even building amps anymore? Seems like he designs shit and outsources them. 

Hermansson is probably the dude you want to check out these days... Until he gets popular too.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Is he even building amps anymore? Seems like he designs shit and outsources them.
> 
> Hermansson is probably the dude you want to check out these days... Until he gets popular too.


Does he even design things?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Probably going to piss someone off, but wraps, socks, dampeners (under the strings; trem spring dampeners are different), and other malarkey are training wheels for sloppy guitarists who should really work on their muting.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Probably going to piss someone off, but wraps, socks, dampeners (under the strings; trem spring dampeners are different), and other malarkey are training wheels for sloppy guitarists who should really work on their muting.



I think context is important. I would never call Jennifer Batten, Stanley Jordan, or Reggie Wooten "sloppy", but they have unique quirks to thier playing that string mutes help facilitate.


----------



## Adieu

Headstock mutes like hairbands and trem spring mutes are a real thing.

Weird shit stuck within the scale length of an instrument, whether guitar or bass, is some buuuullshit.


----------



## gnoll

WarMachine said:


> Wouldn't it be nice to have an amp that added enough bass cut to match an increase in gain? Like, cranking it up actually cleans up the low end? Time to call Mike Fortin and have him start building my amp..



I've been thinking lately that I'm actually pretty happy having a looser amp that I can control with pedals. Then adjust to taste according to what I'm doing. Heavy chords? Let more bass through. Fast palm muted riffs? Cut more. I don't necessarily want everything I play to sound like ultra modern metal, even if it's a high gain tone.


----------



## TedEH

Spaced Out Ace said:


> wraps, socks, dampeners (under the strings; trem spring dampeners are different), and other malarkey are training wheels


I mostly thought this for a while until someone pointed out some behind-the-nut ringing that he was stopping with one of those wraps.... and then I noticed one of my own guitars does this too, and I can't unhear it. It's subtle and I'd only reaaaaaaally care in a recording scenario, but it's there.


----------



## A-Branger

diagrammatiks said:


> hard pass. everything should be full soap bars.



to be fair, those do look sick. But I wouldnt call those soapbars. I would borrow the term from Bartolini and call them "candybars" 



Spaced Out Ace said:


> Probably going to piss someone off, but wraps, socks, dampeners (under the strings; trem spring dampeners are different), and other malarkey are training wheels for sloppy guitarists who should really work on their muting.



on that note, massive fretwraps that look like a wrist sweat band are ugly as sin and completely awful and way overkill for headstock string muting. Just get yourself a small piece of foam to go behind the nut and happy days, guitar still looks great and you cant tell theres a foam in there, instead of having a big chunk of towel around your headstock


----------



## GunpointMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Probably going to piss someone off, but wraps, socks, dampeners (under the strings; trem spring dampeners are different), and other malarkey are training wheels for sloppy guitarists who should really work on their muting.


Piano players with mute pedals and sustain pedals are also totally sloppy and lazy and should just play what they want to hear instead of relying on something to help "control" the strings. Lazy pianists! 

If you gotta slide it up over the strings every time you go for a sweep or something, maybe. If you're doing excessive two-hand tapping on anything over six strings or killing off bad headstock ringing, how is that training wheels? It's being smarter than the instrument, lol. Satan forbid anyone tries to combat the inherent issues with these antiquated instruments.


----------



## laxu

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Hell, just give me a two channel (both the same) JCM800 with a boost (think Jube) and a TS9 or Wylde Overdrive out front, and I'd be golden.



Amps with two identical channels should be more common. I had the Egnater Tourmaster back in the day that was kind of like this but with four channels (two clean/low gain and two mid/high gain) and it was a delight to work with using this setup. Shouldn't have sold that heavy beast.

With wide enough range of gain or some switches to tailor the sound you could get a lot more sounds out of one.


----------



## Akkush

Kemper ,Axe-FX, etc. are overpriced toys for the boys, who want the most "updated" gadgets...


----------



## Emperoff

Akkush said:


> Kemper ,Axe-FX, etc. are overpriced toys for the boys, who want the most "updated" gadgets...



This one might actually win the thread


----------



## GunpointMetal

Akkush said:


> Kemper ,Axe-FX, etc. are overpriced toys for the boys, who want the most "updated" gadgets...


It's called the present, sweaty, try living in it.


----------



## Boofchuck

Akkush said:


> Kemper ,Axe-FX, etc. are overpriced toys for the boys, who want the most "updated" gadgets...


Ha! Good thing I have a Helix then.



GunpointMetal said:


> It's called the present, sweaty, try living in it.


----------



## Mathemagician

Akkush said:


> Kemper ,Axe-FX, etc. are overpriced toys for the boys, who want the most "updated" gadgets...



This take is spicy hot Cheetos with extra cayenne pepper, mixed with extra spicy Nashville hot chicken w/jalapeños. I love the audacity.

But given that Kemper tech is 10+ years old and even with updates Fractal isn’t reinventing their wheel entirely.

Being able to get 90-95% (Closer for the audiophile tweakers) of the sound of any amp or effect is just ridiculous value.

As a non-tweaker watching Ola set up cool scenes in the FM3 has made me seriously consider getting one.

Brb, going to continue my Kemper search for a rhythm tone of Iced Earth’s “Something Wicked...” album since I can’t pick up a $9,000 Larry Dino amp.


----------



## sirbuh

Mathemagician said:


> This take is spicy hot Cheetos with extra cayenne pepper, mixed with extra spicy Nashville hot chicken w/jalapeños. I love the audacity.



Methinks he was baiting on the relative value of the helix vs the other two.


----------



## Shask

gnoll said:


> I've been thinking lately that I'm actually pretty happy having a looser amp that I can control with pedals. Then adjust to taste according to what I'm doing. Heavy chords? Let more bass through. Fast palm muted riffs? Cut more. I don't necessarily want everything I play to sound like ultra modern metal, even if it's a high gain tone.


I found long ago that I like looser amps like Rectos or 5150s tightened with boost pedals over super tight amps. Better chugs that way.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Thats why I wish more amps had a happy medium. Have a looser core tone, but some way to shape the "feel" of the amp. Built-in boost (Driftwood, Randall Diavlo, Peavey Rockmaster/Ultra Plus), pre-gain filters (Larry, Fortin), or unconventional EQ controls (Mesa Mark series).


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Thats why I wish more amps had a happy medium. Have a looser core tone, but some way to shape the "feel" of the amp. Built-in boost (Driftwood, Randall Diavlo, Peavey Rockmaster/Ultra Plus), pre-gain filters (Larry, Fortin), or unconventional EQ controls (Mesa Mark series).


You can always start looser and widdle your way to a sharper point with tone. You cannot really do the opposite. (I mean, you can, but you run the risk of it being gross and farty.)


----------



## Bearitone

laxu said:


> Amps with two identical channels should be more common. I had the Egnater Tourmaster back in the day that was kind of like this but with four channels (two clean/low gain and two mid/high gain) and it was a delight to work with using this setup. Shouldn't have sold that heavy beast.
> 
> With wide enough range of gain or some switches to tailor the sound you could get a lot more sounds out of one.



Dude i want Orange to do this with a Dark Terror so bad. The DT actually does amazing cleans and the high gain tones it can pull are damn near my favorite of any amp out there. I would be first in line for a “Dark Twin” lunchbox amp but, only if both channels really are exactly the same.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The Fortin Meathead/Randall 667 was a bit overkill with 6 channels, but it had that going on. Each channel were pretty much carbon copies of each other, but they all had a bunch of gain and feel controls to really have a wide range per channel.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> You can always start looser and widdle your way to a sharper point with tone. You cannot really do the opposite. (I mean, you can, but you run the risk of it being gross and farty.)


That's what I do right now. I run two preamps, and one is the R&R SL/LD with a TC Preamp clone to tighten things up. I like the TC clone because it's more of an EQ, so I can still get a usable clean sound. But I'd still like amps to have that feature as well. A standard clean channel, and a Recto/SLO/5150/JCM800 (whatever flavor you pick) based distortion channel with a boost (either a TS9, SD-1, or a pre-EQ style) in front to tweak the feel.


----------



## ATRguitar91

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's what I do right now. I run two preamps, and one is the R&R SL/LD with a TC Preamp clone to tighten things up. I like the TC clone because it's more of an EQ, so I can still get a usable clean sound. But I'd still like amps to have that feature as well. A standard clean channel, and a Recto/SLO/5150/JCM800 (whatever flavor you pick) based distortion channel with a boost (either a TS9, SD-1, or a pre-EQ style) in front to tweak the feel.


Never heard of it but that SL/LD sounds wicked. The rack poweramps they have up seem like a cool option too. What other preamp and power amp are you pairing with the R&R?

I definitely like my base tone to be thicker and tighten up as needed. The boosts I use (Savage Drive/M77) let me tailor the low end easily.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

ATRguitar91 said:


> Never heard of it but that SL/LD sounds wicked. The rack poweramps they have up seem like a cool option too. What other preamp and power amp are you pairing with the R&R?
> 
> I definitely like my base tone to be thicker and tighten up as needed. The boosts I use (Savage Drive/M77) let me tailor the low end easily.


He's using a KSR Ceres.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ATRguitar91 said:


> Never heard of it but that SL/LD sounds wicked. The rack poweramps they have up seem like a cool option too. What other preamp and power amp are you pairing with the R&R?
> 
> I definitely like my base tone to be thicker and tighten up as needed. The boosts I use (Savage Drive/M77) let me tailor the low end easily.



If you need a purely clean boost, I also recommend a TC Integrated Preamp. I know people claim "OH JUST GET AN EQ PEDAL", but the range of the TC pre is fucking *ridiculous* and you can either make your tones muddy and doomy, or EXTREMELY tight. 



Spaced Out Ace said:


> He's using a KSR Ceres.



Juggle between that and a Peavey Rockmaster. Depends on the mood.


----------



## ATRguitar91

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> If you need a purely clean boost, I also recommend a TC Integrated Preamp. I know people claim "OH JUST GET AN EQ PEDAL", but the range of the TC pre is fucking *ridiculous* and you can either make your tones muddy and doomy, or EXTREMELY tight.


I'm sure I'll eventually end up with a TC Preamp clone just to see how they sound, but I've been so enamored with my Savage Drive I haven't felt the need for another boost. It's hard for me to imagine something tighter than the Savage, so I'd be curious to compare to the TC Preamp.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I wouldn't call it "better", it's a different flavor. like I said, I dig it because I can still use my amp's clean tones. Just have to dial down the treble and boost the fuck out of the bass.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Speaking of the TC Integrated Preamp, is the VFE Focus based on it, or...?


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Speaking of the TC Integrated Preamp, is the VFE Focus based on it, or...?


No, it is different. It is high/low shelving filters where you change the frequency I believe.

The TC is basically just a Baxandall EQ at 100hz and 10khz.


----------



## Rex

An unpopular opinion, the POD 2.0 is the best sounding unit of all pods available (PODs not Helix)


----------



## gunch

Akkush said:


> Kemper ,Axe-FX, etc. are overpriced toys for the boys, who want the most "updated" gadgets...



I mean isn't all guitar shit just hollow materialism?


----------



## Vyn

99% of guitarists don't need anything more than a HX Stomp for tones.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Rex said:


> An unpopular opinion, the POD 2.0 is the best sounding unit of all pods available (PODs not Helix)


BWAHAHAHAHA *throws up in mouth*
BAWAHAHAHA
Now that's a knee slapper.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Rex said:


> An unpopular opinion, the POD 2.0 is the best sounding unit of all pods available (PODs not Helix)



Hey, it was good enough for Arjen Lucassen.

I still prefer my HD500 though.


----------



## rokket2005

Arjen Lucassen needed to save on his guitar amp budget so that he could hire 35 guests for every album he makes.


----------



## Science_Penguin

rokket2005 said:


> Arjen Lucassen needed to save on his guitar amp budget so that he could hire 35 guests for every album he makes.



And it still sounded bad ass.


----------



## Frostbite

Rex said:


> An unpopular opinion, the POD 2.0 is the best sounding unit of all pods available (PODs not Helix)


Absolutely not the XT/X3 were waaaaay better. Big Bottom got me like OOF


----------



## SSK0909

Expensive pickups really don't sound a lot better than cheap ones.

Recently did some recordings for fun while swapping pickups. Before and after clips were often scary close. Enough that I probably wont bother swapping again.

Of course there might be differences if you switch from medium to high output or from passives to actives. But I've done three switches from cheap, passive, high outputs to expensive, passive high outputs. And it's honestly difficult to tell a difference, and even hard to point out which on is the expensive one.


----------



## Rex

GunpointMetal said:


> BWAHAHAHAHA *throws up in mouth*
> BAWAHAHAHA
> Now that's a knee slapper.



Ouch,  hey it´s an unpopular opinion hahaha


----------



## GunpointMetal

Rex said:


> Ouch,  hey it´s an unpopular opinion hahaha


I'll say! almost to the point of being nonsensical, let alone unpopular.


----------



## Matt08642

Vyn said:


> 99% of guitarists don't need anything more than a HX Stomp for tones.



I’m not sure how unpopular that is. Assuming most guitar players, especially in the metal scene, jam on one or two patches, it’s entirely reasonable to get all your sounds out of a modern pedal like that plugged into something like a Seymour Duncan power stage > cab


----------



## Mathemagician

Ya I buy shit cause I want it. Not cause I need it.

I happily played on a knockoff strat and a bass combo for years when I started.

The delta between what I want and what I need is the same as the delta between a Porsche and a bus pass.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> I’m not sure how unpopular that is. Assuming most guitar players, especially in the metal scene, jam on one or two patches, it’s entirely reasonable to get all your sounds out of a modern pedal like that plugged into something like a Seymour Duncan power stage > cab


Or, you know... just get a Headrush FRFR and save some cash.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Billy sheehan has terrible tone. His tone sounds like you take all the "ugly" bass frequencies and boost/compress the shit out of them.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Billy sheehan has terrible tone. His tone sounds like you take all the "ugly" bass frequencies and boost/compress the shit out of them.


Those first two Diamond David Lee Roth albums called and wanted me to tell you to go fuck yourself.


----------



## WarMachine

NOT a fan of the wah range that has become the new midrange "heavy" tone. If its too boomy, lower the bass and crank the treble for chrissakes. Id rather hear that than an amp that is "heavy" by sounding its ran thru a Styrofoam cup..


----------



## laxu

SSK0909 said:


> Expensive pickups really don't sound a lot better than cheap ones.
> 
> Recently did some recordings for fun while swapping pickups. Before and after clips were often scary close. Enough that I probably wont bother swapping again.
> 
> Of course there might be differences if you switch from medium to high output or from passives to actives. But I've done three switches from cheap, passive, high outputs to expensive, passive high outputs. And it's honestly difficult to tell a difference, and even hard to point out which on is the expensive one.



That's a bit of a blanket statement. There are plenty of crappy stock pickups just as there are good ones. In the guitars I own, I have pickups from Seymour Duncan, Bareknuckle, Kiesel, Mastertone, Wolfetone, Suhr, Vintage Vibe, G&L and Fender. They are all good and there isn't one that is above the others.

I would say that once you get to the Duncan/DiMarzio range, it does not get any better, just different. To me it's just about matching the right pickup with the right guitar. For example the stock Yamaha bridge pickup on my old Yamaha SA-1200S was too midrangy compared to the neck pickup so the tonal balance was hard to get right. I replaced those with a set of Vintage Vibes and that fixed the issue.


----------



## SSK0909

laxu said:


> That's a bit of a blanket statement. There are plenty of crappy stock pickups just as there are good ones. In the guitars I own, I have pickups from Seymour Duncan, Bareknuckle, Kiesel, Mastertone, Wolfetone, Suhr, Vintage Vibe, G&L and Fender. They are all good and there isn't one that is above the others.
> 
> I would say that once you get to the Duncan/DiMarzio range, it does not get any better, just different. To me it's just about matching the right pickup with the right guitar. For example the stock Yamaha bridge pickup on my old Yamaha SA-1200S was too midrangy compared to the neck pickup so the tonal balance was hard to get right. I replaced those with a set of Vintage Vibes and that fixed the issue.



I absolutely agree. It's like with singers microphones. It's about finding one that is right for your voice, and that's not necessarily the most expensive one.

You just come across a lot of posts online that make it seem like swithcing to a bare knuckle/Seymor duncan etc is an instant tone fix, or that stock pickups shopuld instantly be switched, and I disagree. 

I think a lot of people perceive an improvement after a pickup switch because they are thrilled with their new purchase and can't really A/B with the old sound (Unless you recorded some in advance, like I did). 
It's a commonly known psychological concept that we seek approval and confirmation after a purchase, to help us come to the conclusion that we made the right decision. . I think this plays a big part when we acquire gear


----------



## Carl Kolchak

potatohead33 said:


> So what you're saying is you want everything to be a JCM800


I mean if you want a good tone, yeah. Otherwise...


----------



## Carl Kolchak

BenjaminW said:


> I thought of getting the HG-Jose Mod from Voodoo Amps, but I wasn’t looking to send my 800 away for a while. I also have no experience when it comes to amp modding and what not.
> 
> But hey, I feel like a stock 800 can do the job just as well as one that’s modded.


Have you checked out the drop-in Legendary Tones Hot Mods for the JCM800s?


----------



## BenjaminW

Carl Kolchak said:


> Have you checked out the drop-in Legendary Tones Hot Mods for the JCM800s?


I’d heard of it before, but I went on YouTube and listened to a demo after seeing you quoted my post, and HOLY SHIT does that shit sound good.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Is that the two Preamp tubes into one adapter? I think Louis Torres did a demo of one or something.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

WarMachine said:


> NOT a fan of the wah range that has become the new midrange "heavy" tone. If its too boomy, lower the bass and crank the treble for chrissakes. Id rather hear that than an amp that is "heavy" by sounding its ran thru a Styrofoam cup..



Agreed. Check out In Flames. Their best tones were really saturated and had a pretty decent scoop in the mids.

Then they started adding more and more mids and lowering the gain and now their tone is aaaaasssss. Compare the original version of Clayman vs the re-recordings.

A lot of my favorite tones had just enough mids to cut through the mix.


----------



## oracles

DAR's are not only poorly built amps that use(d) needlessly difficult to source components for nothing but corksniffer "cred", but they also sound terrible. It's the same tone as the Line 6 "big bottom" POD setting.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Agreed. Check out In Flames. Their best tones were really saturated and had a pretty decent scoop in the mids.
> 
> Then they started adding more and more mids and lowering the gain and now their tone is aaaaasssss. Compare the original version of Clayman vs the re-recordings.
> 
> A lot of my favorite tones had just enough mids to cut through the mix.


Sounds like you are describing Metallica


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Agreed. Check out In Flames. Their best tones were really saturated and had a pretty decent scoop in the mids.
> 
> Then they started adding more and more mids and lowering the gain and now their tone is aaaaasssss. Compare the original version of Clayman vs the re-recordings.
> 
> A lot of my favorite tones had just enough mids to cut through the mix.





Shask said:


> Sounds like you are describing Metallica



Yup. They had awesome tone back in the Black/Load era. I recall them using Triaxis/2:90s rigs live. Now they use Axe-Fxs with SS poweramps so I guess it shows.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> Sounds like you are describing Metallica



Weirdly Metallica's tones have fluctuated a lot. KeA was middy as fuck, RTL was scooped, MoP was kinda scooped, AJFA was ***scoooooooped***. Black, Load, Reload were scooped but had enough mids to cut through the mix with aggression. St. Anger IIRC was James having the middy Diezel and Kirk having the scooped Recto which sounded cool, actually. And uh... Yeah, Death Magnetic and Hardwired was what I'm talking about too. Low gain and too middy. 



Emperoff said:


> Yup. They had awesome tone back in the Black/Load era. I recall them using Triaxis rigs live.



The Load tour was when James started using the TriAxis. He also used his TriAxis live rig to record ReLoad. I think Kirk was using Rectos.


----------



## diagrammatiks

oracles said:


> DAR's are not only poorly built amps that use(d) needlessly difficult to source components for nothing but corksniffer "cred", but they also sound terrible. It's the same tone as the Line 6 "big bottom" POD setting.



I think people agree on this.


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> I think people agree on this.



It's just hard for anyone to get hands-on and verify it. Like a blackmachine -- price of finding out is $15k+, and at that point, you better talk it up or you're out a shit-ton of money.


----------



## gunch

I’ve said all along modern tones suck wang and that the scoop is the juice


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> It's just hard for anyone to get hands-on and verify it. Like a blackmachine -- price of finding out is $15k+, and at that point, you better talk it up or you're out a shit-ton of money.



All you should need to know about Blackmachine is that all the original djent hype boys that said they were the greatest guitars ever that would be buried with them blah blah blah have sold theirs.


----------



## narad

technomancer said:


> All you should need to know about Blackmachine is that all the original djent hype boys that said they were the greatest guitars ever that would be buried with them blah blah blah have sold theirs.



It was always a little suspect but the minute Francesco wrote like a 4pg pdf about why blackmachines should cost $20k, I was done with the brand. I wonder what happened to that document...can't seem to find it. But in many ways that time was a precursor to the world we live in now with branding pushed non-stop on FB and instagram...artists and youtubers just beginning to realize the power of hyping up products.


----------



## technomancer

narad said:


> It was always a little suspect but the minute Francesco wrote like a 4pg pdf about why blackmachines should cost $20k, I was done with the brand. I wonder what happened to that document...can't seem to find it. But in many ways that time was a precursor to the world we live in now with branding pushed non-stop on FB and instagram...artists and youtubers just beginning to realize the power of hyping up products.



Same shit different day, Barnum summed it up way before the internet / social media


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Unpopular opinion: I'm not sure if we'll ever figure out what @technomancer 's surprise is.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Unpopular opinion: I'm not sure if we'll ever figure out what @technomancer 's surprise is.


His/her/xim/xir/their surprise is out there... somewhere.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Billy sheehan has terrible tone. His tone sounds like you take all the "ugly" bass frequencies and boost/compress the shit out of them.



Someone needs new headphones.


----------



## technomancer

That's a sig that happens when you buy and sell stuff too much to keep track of.... currently it's a spool of two conductor wire and a bunch of caps 

Most recent was finishing this build (Friedman SS100 + Deluxe features)... there have been some zip ties since the photo and I still need to bolt it into the headshell

View media item 3146


----------



## USMarine75

oracles said:


> DAR's are not only poorly built amps that use(d) needlessly difficult to source components for nothing but corksniffer "cred", but they also sound terrible. It's the same tone as the Line 6 "big bottom" POD setting.



Is this an unpopular opinion? Didnt they make like 5 amps that actually made it to market?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> That's a sig that happens when you buy and sell stuff too much to keep track of.... currently it's a spool of two conductor wire and a bunch of caps
> 
> Most recent was finishing this build (Friedman SS100 + Deluxe features)... there have been some zip ties since the photo and I still need to bolt it into the headshell
> 
> View media item 3146



Oh shit that's actually sweet. Been curious about how the SS compares to the BE. 



USMarine75 said:


> Is this an unpopular opinion? Didnt they make like 5 amps that actually made it to market?



I've heard people shit-talk the tone for sure, but not the build quality.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've heard people shit-talk the tone for sure, but not the build quality.



Well, I guess if one was bad that's a 20% Gibson-esque defect rate lol.


----------



## cGoEcYk

Orange is overpriced by about 50%

Most ENGL amps sound like static

No one who owns a Bogner plays in a band / on stage

No boutique dirt/overdrive/fuzz pedal is worth the price


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've heard people shit-talk the tone for sure, but not the build quality.



I think almost half of them that made it into the wild needed service within the first year. 

That's still probably less than 10 amps though. 



cGoEcYk said:


> No one who owns a Bogner plays in a band / on stage



Maybe 10 or 15 years ago, but you can find older revision Ubers for a hair more than a new 6505. Even the new ones are about as much as a Recto.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think almost half of them that made it into the wild needed service within the first year.
> 
> That's still probably less than 10 amps though. .



Welp. Guess it's a popular opinion then. I think I just joined when the fiasco happened so I was out of the loop for that part.


----------



## USMarine75

cGoEcYk said:


> No one who owns a Bogner plays in a band / on stage



Where you get that from?


----------



## WarMachine

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Agreed. Check out In Flames. Their best tones were really saturated and had a pretty decent scoop in the mids.
> 
> Then they started adding more and more mids and lowering the gain and now their tone is aaaaasssss. Compare the original version of Clayman vs the re-recordings.
> 
> A lot of my favorite tones had just enough mids to cut through the mix.


Exactly dude. I get it, over time, you have to change things up here and there to stay relevant. But where i think a lot of people fall short there is butchering their sounds to stand out or be different.  Nonono. The initial sounds from some bands is what gets people into them. Otherwise people would be like wtf right from jump. If there is any change, make it a change of pace in music, i e more of a groove metal album, more thrash elements, maybe something laid back. Not a neutered guitar tone


----------



## Matt08642

narad said:


> It was always a little suspect but the minute Francesco wrote like a 4pg pdf about why blackmachines should cost $20k, I was done with the brand. I wonder what happened to that document...can't seem to find it. But in many ways that time was a precursor to the world we live in now with branding pushed non-stop on FB and instagram...artists and youtubers just beginning to realize the power of hyping up products.



Man, 20k for a single instrument. Let's assume the parts cost is $5000, which is insane and surely an overestimate.

What's the other 10/15/20k even for? 15 hours of labor per fret? lol

I feel this way about any guitar that costs some obscene amount that isn't made of gold or something


----------



## Demiurge

^But there was some magic chambering or whatever. 

When a guitar gains currency with a subgenre that filters/EQs/squishes/gates/DSPs to oblivion, I'm more likely to believe that it's a middle-of-the-road-sounding, flexible guitar (nothing wrong with that) than a true, gottahaveit tone monster.


----------



## budda

I've only met three people who play(ed) bogners live, and they've all toured the world .


----------



## StevenC

Matt08642 said:


> Man, 20k for a single instrument. Let's assume the parts cost is $5000, which is insane and surely an overestimate.
> 
> What's the other 10/15/20k even for? 15 hours of labor per fret? lol
> 
> I feel this way about any guitar that costs some obscene amount that isn't made of gold or something


I can't speak to the used market, but with Auerswald for example I believe part of his pricing is that building guitars is something of a side gig and it's not worth his time otherwise. Also the Auerswald process is way more intensive and holistic than any other builder in the world, except some of the top acoustic guys.

Also, most 1 man show guitar builders don't charge enough to make it work. Hence why you see so many stockpiling deposits just to cut and run when it gets overwhelming.


----------



## A-Branger

different guitar brand strings dont sound different. They just sound "new" compared to the tone you got used with the string you have in your guitar before changing them.

they miiiight feel different (in some cases), and they would last longer/shorter. But they all sound the same



also the "but X famous artist uses this brand of string"... yup, and he also change strings on every gig on a tour......... this to the slinkys, dont get and never got the hype for them. Every time I tried them I can see them getting rusted in front of me


----------



## laxu

A-Branger said:


> different guitar brand strings dont sound different. They just sound "new" compared to the tone you got used with the string you have in your guitar before changing them.
> 
> they miiiight feel different (in some cases), and they would last longer/shorter. But they all sound the same
> 
> 
> 
> also the "but X famous artist uses this brand of string"... yup, and he also change strings on every gig on a tour......... this to the slinkys, dont get and never got the hype for them. Every time I tried them I can see them getting rusted in front of me



I have found plenty of differences between strings, especially on acoustics where there is a wider range of string compositions. But between electric guitar brands of the same gauge it's usually pretty subtle stuff that nobody but the player will care about.

I just stick to D'Addarios because I have found them durable, like the packaging and colored ball ends. I used to buy Snake Oil brand strings and felt they sounded a bit better but they were too expensive and became increasingly harder to find. I have sworn off DR strings because I kept getting ones that did not intonate no matter what.


----------



## GunpointMetal

A-Branger said:


> different guitar brand strings dont sound different. They just sound "new" compared to the tone you got used with the string you have in your guitar before changing them.
> 
> they miiiight feel different (in some cases), and they would last longer/shorter. But they all sound the same
> 
> 
> 
> also the "but X famous artist uses this brand of string"... yup, and he also change strings on every gig on a tour......... this to the slinkys, dont get and never got the hype for them. Every time I tried them I can see them getting rusted in front of me


Nonsense. The standard EBs sound quite a bit different than GHS Boomers, and both sound different than Elixirs, and they all sound different from Kalium. Maybe the difference is less if you're buying standard gauges, but there is definitely a difference.


----------



## Avedas

I can't believe I used to use EB Slinkys way back. I swear they were dead every 2-3 weeks, and I don't even sweat much. The only other strings I had die so quickly were the Rotosounds that BKP includes with their pickups.


----------



## mikah912

budda said:


> I've only met three people who play(ed) bogners live, and they've all toured the world .



I know, right? I guess the original point is that Bogners are muddy and don't cut in a band mix, but I think Jerry Cantrell, Neal Schon and Steve Lukather would like a word.


----------



## USMarine75

budda said:


> I've only met three people who play(ed) bogners live, and they've all toured the world .



Exactly. It’s one of the most popular studio session guitarist amp brands of all time. Tom Bukovac uses the Goldfinger 45. The Shiva is legendary for the amount of touring and session musicians that use it.

And it’s not just the list of who uses one right now, because their brand is well established by now. But historically, back when there weren’t unlimited amp brands to choose from, Soldano and Bogner were THE amps to have other than your standard Fender, Marshall, or Vox. Bogner and Soldano were the 80s/90s “it” brands. I feel like every country act I’ve seen live plays either Fender or Bogner amps. 



mikah912 said:


> I know, right? I guess the original point is that Bogners are muddy and don't cut in a band mix, but I think Jerry Cantrell, Neal Schon and Steve Lukather would like a word.



I was waiting for a reply before I dropped names lol. Lukather especially, as he’s one of the most prolific session guitarists of all time (even if he’s not a Toto fan).

This thread needs to be renamed “Alternate Guitar Facts” with the amount of made-up “opinions”.


----------



## technomancer

Avedas said:


> I can't believe I used to use EB Slinkys way back. I swear they were dead every 2-3 weeks, and I don't even sweat much. The only other strings I had die so quickly were the Rotosounds that BKP includes with their pickups.



I loved them... for about 2 days. After 5 they were a dead rusty mess and needed changed. No thanks.


----------



## SexHaver420

Music Man guitars and basses are overrated and it's not even because they're bad instruments. They just cost way too much for what you get. Same with PRS (99% of the PRS finishes are atrocious and way too flashy and only grandpas like them). I've never played one that didn't play or sound good but they're just not worth the money compared to other companies.

Music Man and PRS make way better amps than guitars too. The HD series of Music Man amps and the PRS Archon are killer.

I can get an ESP for cheaper than a Music Man or PRS and they're built just as well if not better and have better fretwork.

Edit: The Stingray is trash because it's not comfy to play because of the pickup location and I like to rest my thumb on the pickup. The Bongo would be amazing if it didn't look like an abortion.


----------



## technomancer

SexHaver420 said:


> I can get an ESP for cheaper than a Music Man or PRS and they're built just as well if not better and have better fretwork.



Please point me at a new ESP (not EII or Ltd) that is less than a PRS or EBMM. I've been looking at ESP Horizon Is and they're $4k+


----------



## oniduder

dar-build quality great, getting any service or person able to fix even a simple problem or one that would be simple on any other amp, imfuckingpossible

hot take of the day for me

never liked the blackmachine look, always felt the hockey stick headstock likes WAAAY too big for the body, not the thinness of the body but any body, 

especially a fanned fret one, it just looks too big, when it's a 6 string i think it's not as noticeable even a seven works, when you move to an 8 omg NOOOOO


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

oniduder said:


> dar-build quality great, getting any service or person able to fix even a simple problem or one that would be simple on any other amp, imfuckingpossible
> 
> hot take of the day for me
> 
> never liked the blackmachine look, always felt the hockey stick headstock likes WAAAY too big for the body, not the thinness of the body but any body,
> 
> especially a fanned fret one, it just looks too big, when it's a 6 string i think it's not as noticeable even a seven works, when you move to an 8 omg NOOOOO


Give me a Gibson, ESP, Kramer, etc. hockey/banana headstock over the Blackmachine anyday.


----------



## cGoEcYk

USMarine75 said:


> Where you get that from?


It's an unpopular opinion


----------



## cGoEcYk

budda said:


> I've only met three people who play(ed) bogners live, and they've all toured the world .


3 out of all the Bogner owners


----------



## Gmork

Unpopular opinion: i think the modern darkglass bass tone used in so many modern metal bands now sounds like shit, its WAY TOO metallic and is totally grating on the ears and is overused and makes every bassist sound identical (i know, blasphemy! ) its obviously completely subjective.


----------



## Rex

technomancer said:


> I loved them... for about 2 days. After 5 they were a dead rusty mess and needed changed. No thanks.



Same here with EB, for a time I thought that I was mad or something similar, some people telling me that their EB lasted long than d'addarios and other brands etc etc and my reaction was ... What??? Are you kidding me? I had the same experience mentioned above, dead sounding and rusted in few days, I prefer DR, Pyramid and d'addarios, nothing special but the feel, sound and durability are more than reasonable for the price with these brands


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> I loved them... for about 2 days. After 5 they were a dead rusty mess and needed changed. No thanks.



This is my experience with EB and Dunlop strings. I swear by D'addario and GHS. Also had good luck with LaBella. Still wanna try those new Elixir Optiwebs or whatever they're called.



Gmork said:


> Unpopular opinion: i think the modern darkglass bass tone used in so many modern metal bands now sounds like shit, its WAY TOO metallic and is totally grating on the ears and is overused and makes every bassist sound identical (i know, blasphemy! ) its obviously completely subjective.



It sucks because I've heard non-djenty people dialing in Darkglass pedals to sound more "organic". Think that Geddy Lee or Billy Gould midrangey grind. Jon from Karnivool also has that kinda vibe going on. You get a lot of these guys either using J or humbucker-style pickups with the high frequencies cranked to the gills, and it sounds super, metallic, clanky (and sometimes "zingy") harsh. I really can't stand that sound.

EDIT: I still do plan on eventually getting a darkglass too.


----------



## gunch

Ughh muh Nolly bass


----------



## TedEH

I'm not sure if this one's been contributed, or even if it's not very popular, but:
I think that most guitarists should be able to pick up and play a bass. I don't expect anyone to be amazing at an instrument they aren't practiced at, but a guitar shares enough with a guitar that the basics should be intuitive.


----------



## A-Branger

laxu said:


> I just stick to D'Addarios because I have found them durable



funny enough I ate D'Addarios because how bad they are for bass, so they left a bad taste for me and I dont want to get near them on guitar. Every string eventually dies(vs new string sound and specially on bass), most of the time is so grdually that you dont notice. With D'Addarios, is been the only string I notice them fully 100% flip in a day. I was playing my bass today and all good. Pickup the bass couple of days later and I found myself looking at it like "WTF????" trying to figure it out if I change the settings, moving the EQ, blaming it to my computer or headphones, or something, nope, its the strings. And it wasnt a pack, it happened 3-4 times

I stick to Elixirs, mostly because they dont rust



GunpointMetal said:


> Maybe the difference is less if you're buying standard gauges



I play in standard tuning


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

A-Branger said:


> funny enough I ate D'Addarios because how bad they are for bass, so they left a bad taste for me and I dont want to get near them on guitar. Every string eventually dies(vs new string sound and specially on bass), most of the time is so grdually that you dont notice. With D'Addarios, is been the only string I notice them fully 100% flip in a day. I was playing my bass today and all good. Pickup the bass couple of days later and I found myself looking at it like "WTF????" trying to figure it out if I change the settings, moving the EQ, blaming it to my computer or headphones, or something, nope, its the strings. And it wasnt a pack, it happened 3-4 times
> 
> I stick to Elixirs, mostly because they dont rust
> 
> 
> 
> I play in standard tuning


You played your bass today, and a couple days later found yourself wondering wtf? Can you time travel or something?


----------



## WarMachine

Gmork said:


> Unpopular opinion: i think the modern darkglass bass tone used in so many modern metal bands now sounds like shit, its WAY TOO metallic and is totally grating on the ears and is overused and makes every bassist sound identical (i know, blasphemy! ) its obviously completely subjective.


Nothing wrong with having some distortion on there, but yeah, totally agree on the typical "lets make a bass sound like a 3rd guitar" thing. Not that i have a better way than anyone else, but i take the approach that the bass has it's place in the spectrum. I EQ/tweak the amp/dist to match the areas of the mix that aren't flooded with guitars or drums. If you can solo the guitars and bass and hear them both well, then that should translate well with the full mix. If not, add some fucking low end.


----------



## Mathemagician

The EB cobalts are awesome. (I think I’m the only one buying these?) the regular EB strings are hot dookie.

I used regular D’ad strings for years because they lasted longer than EB, but now they have NYXL so it’s really whoever makes a gauge closest to what I want.

I want to try the elixir optiwebs but I’ll have to buy two sets to try the gauges I want and them I’m out some $25+ if I don’t like them.


----------



## budda

cGoEcYk said:


> 3 out of all the Bogner owners



Which may not be a huge number, huh.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> I'm not sure if this one's been contributed, or even if it's not very popular, but:
> I think that most guitarists should be able to pick up and play a bass. I don't expect anyone to be amazing at an instrument they aren't practiced at, but a guitar shares enough with a guitar that the basics should be intuitive.



Except every guitar player just sounds like a guitar player an octave down when they grab a bass . It takes time to shake the guitarist way of thinking and actually play bass well. 

But I think most guitarists would be able to play passable bass if required.


----------



## WarMachine

budda said:


> Except every guitar player just sounds like a guitar player an octave down when they grab a bass . It takes time to shake the guitarist way of thinking and actually play bass well.
> 
> But I think most guitarists would be able to play passable bass if required.


To add to this, at least from my experience, when playing bass for longer than about 5 minutes I can fly up and down the fretboard of a guitar like its not even there. I tend to do this a lot with recording. I'll record the bass track first then start cruising on the guitars lol.


----------



## Necky379

WarMachine said:


> To add to this, at least from my experience, when playing bass for longer than about 5 minutes I can fly up and down the fretboard of a guitar like its not even there. I tend to do this a lot with recording. I'll record the bass track first then start cruising on the guitars lol.



I never thought about this but it’s true. I struggle with bass then when I go back to guitar I can suck with little to no effort.


----------



## SexHaver420

technomancer said:


> Please point me at a new ESP (not EII or Ltd) that is less than a PRS or EBMM. I've been looking at ESP Horizon Is and they're $4k+



EII are literally the same guitars as ESP standards and made by the same people.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

This is the coolest guitar ESP makes.


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is the coolest guitar ESP makes.


If Prince's Cloud guitar was possessed.


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is the coolest guitar ESP makes.



If that was actually in a nice violin color I think I'd like it. And maybe calm down on the horns a little bit.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> If that was actually in a nice violin color I think I'd like it. And maybe calm down on the horns a little bit.



No


----------



## technomancer

SexHaver420 said:


> EII are literally the same guitars as ESP standards and made by the same people.



EII are literally the middle priced line from ESP vs the lower priced LTD and Edwards japanese lines and the higher end USA and Japanese ESP models that are still branded ESP and compete in the same price tier as PRS or EBMM. That's why they renamed them to EII, to differentiate the lines. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with EII, just that you're comparing two different price points of guitars. It's like saying Gibson sucks because you can buy a PRS for so much less and pointing at an LP Custom and an S2 singlecut. Different lines, different price points, different market segments.

If you prefer the EIIs that's great but the price point comparison is apples to oranges.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> EII are literally the middle priced line from ESP vs the lower priced LTD and Edwards japanese lines and the higher end USA and Japanese ESP models that are still branded ESP and compete in the same price tier as PRS or EBMM. That's why they renamed them to EII, to differentiate the lines. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with EII, just that you're comparing two different price points of guitars. It's like saying Gibson sucks because you can buy a PRS for so much less and pointing at an LP Custom and an S2 singlecut. Different lines, different price points, different market segments.
> 
> If you prefer the EIIs that's great but the price point comparison is apples to oranges.



I think he's talking about the old ESP Standard series, before the rename.


----------



## sakeido

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is the coolest guitar ESP makes.



all of ESP's coolest guitars are J-rock signatures and exactly 0% of them are exported to the US which is a goddamn shame


----------



## Metropolis

I will take any boring ESP superstrat over that hideous possessed tentacle... simplicity and function over the sake of just being different.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Anyone know the scale on Prince's Doom Cloud?


----------



## Emperoff

mikah912 said:


> I know, right? I guess the original point is that Bogners are muddy and don't cut in a band mix, but I think Jerry Cantrell, Neal Schon and Steve Lukather would like a word.



Neal Schon's tone is amazing. It's so ironic seem him as Santana's rythm guitarist when he can outshine him with one hand, lol.


----------



## technomancer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I think he's talking about the old ESP Standard series, before the rename.



The rename was literally years ago at this point, seemed like he was talking about current pricing. Not that it matters because the reality breaks down to: people are buying them or the prices would come down. The price on Suhrs, PRSs, ESPs, etc kill me, but they are what they are and they're selling them as fast as they can build them. Sales are actually up quite a bit this year oddly enough.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Metropolis said:


> I will take any boring ESP superstrat over that hideous possessed tentacle... simplicity and function over the sake of just being different.



That's because you have no artistic vision. Stop being boring.


----------



## Adieu

Metropolis said:


> I will take any boring ESP superstrat over that hideous possessed tentacle... simplicity and function over the sake of just being different.



But that one looks so much moar nefariously rapey!!!


----------



## BenjaminW

Emperoff said:


> Neal Schon's tone is amazing.


Smooth as butter is a perfect way to describe his tone.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

sakeido said:


> all of ESP's coolest guitars are J-rock signatures and exactly 0% of them are exported to the US which is a goddamn shame



Yeah...we get the shit end of the deal when it comes to ESP guitars over here in the states.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Wait when did Neal Schon use Bogners?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait when did Neal Schon use Bogners?


Well, trying to access what I thought was Bogner Amps via a Google result redirected me to some random site, dodgy site that I have zero clue if it is malware infested or not, so at this point, I don't give a fuck if Neal Schon used Bogner. You figure it out.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> That's because you have no artistic vision. Stop being boring.


I don't know, that looks more like something you'd use to cover up a lack of artistic vision unless you were the one who designed it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> I don't know, that looks more like something you'd use to cover up a lack of artistic vision unless you were the one who designed it.



Considering the person responsible for the guitar? That's NOT a possibility


----------



## Ribboz

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well, trying to access what I thought was Bogner Amps via a Google result redirected me to some random site, dodgy site that I have zero clue if it is malware infested or not, so at this point, I don't give a fuck if Neal Schon used Bogner. You figure it out.


Bogner's website has had malicious redirects and ads for years. I don't know why they haven't fixed it. Avoid it like the plague.

About Neal Schon, a few years ago there were rumors of a Friedman Neal Schon amp. I really want to see what they make.


----------



## mikah912

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait when did Neal Schon use Bogners?



His solo album, The Calling, is all Bogner Shiva. I think he used an Alchemist as well for awhile.


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is the coolest guitar ESP makes.



- These type guitars are more art pieces than player guitars.
- They're more like art that can be played but really belong on a wall as an art piece. Something you take down and play every so often or bring out for a song or two. 
- Not really a main player axe though, imo. Those horns are just begging to be busted off under regular use. 
- I think it looks cool but think it would look a lot better without the symbols and inlays on it. I'm sure whoever thought of the idea probably has personal association/attachment to those symbols though so to each their own. 
- I love that it has an EMG.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> - These type guitars are more art pieces than player guitars.
> - They're more like art that can be played but really belong on a wall as an art piece. Something you take down and play every so often or bring out for a song or two.
> - Not really a main player axe though, imo. Those horns are just begging to be busted off under regular use.
> - I think it looks cool but think it would look a lot better without the symbols and inlays on it. I'm sure whoever thought of the idea probably has personal association/attachment to those symbols though so to each their own.
> - I love that it has an EMG.



Yeah. Agreed. I want one really bad but I'd never play it out, it would mainly be an art piece. For Mana, it fits his style and it looks great on stage

And despite us looking vaguely similar, I'm not really keen with going on stage with a guitar that says "Little girl" on the fretboard. Then again it's not my guitar it's Mana's...so..yeah.


----------



## c7spheres

Ribboz said:


> Bogner's website has had malicious redirects and ads for years. I don't know why they haven't fixed it. Avoid it like the plague.



Had to go to Bogner webisite. Yep, redirected and warnings came up. : )


----------



## sakeido

c7spheres said:


> - They're more like art that can be played but really belong on a wall as an art piece. Something you take down and play every so often or bring out for a song or two.



It absolutely was an art piece. The entire band was basically an art piece... but he did play this guitar live a lot.






fuckin visual kei


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

sakeido said:


> It absolutely was an art piece. The entire band was basically an art piece... but he did play this guitar live a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fuckin visual kei



Mana is love. Mana is life


----------



## c7spheres

sakeido said:


> It absolutely was an art piece. The entire band was basically an art piece... but he did play this guitar live a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fuckin visual kei


- Now it all makes sense. It certainly works for the look. 
- Interesting read on Wiki about him. Inspired by Motley Crue, doesn't speak directly to people. Describes himself as girly and macho with a destructive attitute. 
- That blue looks cool. Like clouds.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Ribboz said:


> Bogner's website has had malicious redirects and ads for years. I don't know why they haven't fixed it. Avoid it like the plague.
> 
> About Neal Schon, a few years ago there were rumors of a Friedman Neal Schon amp. I really want to see what they make.


Yeah, now you tell me. So what fucking bullshit virus did I get from their horse shit website?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

c7spheres said:


> Had to go to Bogner webisite. Yep, redirected and warnings came up. : )


yeah, I didn't get warnings, I don't think. I tried to exit as soon as I saw it redirect. Reinhold can go fuck himself.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah, now you tell me. So what fucking bullshit virus did I get from their horse shit website?


Could be COVID. Next time, wear a mask around your computer and stay 6 feet apart.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> Could be COVID. Next time, wear a mask around your computer and stay 6 feet apart.


I'm sure that's funny, but I'm kind of annoyed, so yeah... 

I used Malwarebytes and Security Essentials, and they didn't find anything.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm sure that's funny, but I'm kind of annoyed, so yeah...


Sorry I just had to get that out of my system.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I don't get the disdain for the Mark V. I've seen a lot of Mesa purists say it's a bad sounding amp.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't get the disdain for the Mark V. I've seen a lot of Mesa purists say it's a bad sounding amp.



It's the same thing that happened to the IV, III, etc...

I'm not at all surprised the e-h8 started when the JP came out. 

When the V came out, you didn't know shit about Boogies unless you absolutely loved it.


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Mana is love. Mana is life



- No, Mana is girly, macho and destructive, according to Mana.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> - No, Mana is girly, macho and destructive, according to Mana.



Someone told me once that I look like what would happen if you melted Mr T. and Mana together...and now I can't get it out of my head.


----------



## WarMachine

c7spheres said:


> - These type guitars are more art pieces than player guitars.
> - They're more like art that can be played but really belong on a wall as an art piece. Something you take down and play every so often or bring out for a song or two.
> - Not really a main player axe though, imo. Those horns are just begging to be busted off under regular use.
> - I think it looks cool but think it would look a lot better without the symbols and inlays on it. I'm sure whoever thought of the idea probably has personal association/attachment to those symbols though so to each their own.
> - I love that it has an EMG.


True, but dude, have you seen that soldier ESP custom shop guitar? With the skull busting in the center and the dual AK's coming out, shell caps on the fretboard lit up? That is just the most beautiful badass guitar i have ever seen! *(Cue Wayne's World strat scene; "It will be mine, oh yes..")*


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Someone told me once that I look like what would happen if you melted Mr T. and Mana together...and now I can't get it out of my head.



Are we talking more like a buff Mana or a skinny effeminate Mr. T?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Are we talking more like a buff Mana or a skinny effeminate Mr. T?


Yes


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yes



Nice


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yes


 Totally. Mr. T and Mana. I'd believe you're in the same band. That guitar would look good on you too. You're kind of intimidating man. I'd be scared of you in person I think. I get the vibe that you'd take out a a Samarai sword or something.


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Someone told me once that I look like what would happen if you melted Mr T. and Mana together...and now I can't get it out of my head.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't get the disdain for the Mark V. I've seen a lot of Mesa purists say it's a bad sounding amp.



Wait until the Mark VI gets released. Then it will suddendly become a holy grail amp and skyrocket its price. Just like all previous revisions did.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

WarMachine said:


>


This pretty much it. Not gon lie


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This pretty much it. Not gon lie


Freaked. Such a bad movie it's great.


----------



## runbirdman

I would rather have an amp that delivers good tones without a lot of tweaking than an amp that delivers great tones but requires tweaking 20 parameters.

I loved my Mesa Mark V but I spent more time flipping switches and twisting knobs than playing. With my Uberschall TJ and JCM, it takes work to get an uninspiring tone. With the Mark, it always seemed that tonal perfection was a parameter tweak away.


----------



## TedEH

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I used Malwarebytes and Security Essentials, and they didn't find anything.


Kinda off topic, but if you're actually concerned about malware from random websites, you're typically pretty safe from just about anything (especially 6 year old malware) as long as you keep your browser up to date.


----------



## TedEH

Just 'cause they're there, you don't haaaaaave to use every knob and feature on an amp. Once you've found a half-decent neutral point of your amp and can be happy with that, the tweaking can end. If you're driven to keep messing with the sound, then I think you either just don't gel with the core tone of the amp, or should just embrace that you enjoy the tweaking on some level.

It's a roundabout way to say:
I don't think there's really such a thing as "an amp that has too many options".


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TedEH said:


> Just 'cause they're there, you don't haaaaaave to use every knob and feature on an amp. Once you've found a half-decent neutral point of your amp and can be happy with that, the tweaking can end. If you're driven to keep messing with the sound, then I think you either just don't gel with the core tone of the amp, or should just embrace that you enjoy the tweaking on some level.
> 
> It's a roundabout way to say:
> I don't think there's really such a thing as "an amp that has too many options".



This reminds me of Alexi Laiho. He uses Marshall JVM410Hs. Marshall's most feature packed, knob-crazy amp ever. Technically a 12-channel amp. 

Does he use every single feature? Every single mode? 

NOPE. One channel. One mode.


----------



## Mathemagician

Wait....so mess doesn’t make Mark IV and Mark V’s at the same time? 

So like... the reason the 2 or 2c or whatever isn’t made isn’t because they decided they didn’t sell well or something, but because the 3 came out? 

Like a PlayStation? Oh shit. TIL.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Mathemagician said:


> Wait....so mess doesn’t make Mark IV and Mark V’s at the same time?
> 
> So like... the reason the 2 or 2c or whatever isn’t made isn’t because they decided they didn’t sell well or something, but because the 3 came out?
> 
> Like a PlayStation? Oh shit. TIL.



Yeah, Mesa is continuously "improving" thier amps and don't continue making previous revisions as they see the newest version as an improvement, which it often is. Not to mention they don't have the capacity to build everything always.

That said, there was nearly 20 years between the IV and V, while the III went through nearly yearly revisions over half a decade.


----------



## Mathemagician

That’s wild. Thanks for that.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Fryette might be barely hanging on, but Fryette > Bogner and to a lesser extent, Friedman.


----------



## rokket2005

Fryette haven't really made amps in the last few years. I was thinking about it the other day after I saw John Browne put up a video about a pittbull he picked up. Prices on pittbulls have apparently doubled in the last 6 months, partially from production on everything shutting down and used prices in general going up, but also Fryette hasn't made a pittbull in years. They're custom order only on their site last I looked,the Deliverance might not be in production either. I don't think they make the Memphis or the Aether anymore either. I know it's a small team of like under 10 people, but since 2015 I think they made the Power Stations and the LXII and that's about it.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't get the disdain for the Mark V. I've seen a lot of Mesa purists say it's a bad sounding amp.


I think this was you who said it, but Mark Vs are mid heavy, so you gotta scoop it like what Petrucci does to get it to sound right.


----------



## broj15

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This reminds me of Alexi Laiho. He uses Marshall JVM410Hs. Marshall's most feature packed, knob-crazy amp ever. Technically a 12-channel amp.
> 
> Does he use every single feature? Every single mode?
> 
> NOPE. One channel. One mode.



See, if I was in his position, unless I just ABSOLUTELY couldn't recreate the tone I want with a simpler amp then I'd definitely pick an amp with less features/simpler design over one that had a bunch of stuff that I don't need. 

My reason being the fewer built in features the less there is that can break. Now that probably isn't an issue for Alexi since he probably has back ups for his back ups on hand whenever he tours, but for those of us that don't have the space or funds for that then if you can get your ideal tone with less features then you'll be better off going that route, especially when you have to inevitably get it repaired.
That being said, I've owned amps with everything from various boost/cut switches, graphic, parametric, and traditional EQ sections and there's benefits to all of those things, and as I've gotten more experienced & educated about how amplifiers work I've figured out how to use those features more effectively, but if I was building my dream amp it would still just be single channel with t/m/b and MAYBE a 5 band active EQ for "problem frequencies" or extreme mid scoop/boost.

However I will say, if an amp has 2 channels (clean & not clean) then there's no reason for both of those channels to share an EQ. I mean how many people actually use the same EQ settings for thier clean and & overdriven tones? I'll never understand why manufacturers continue to make channels share an EQ when the purpose of both of those channels are wildly different.


----------



## runbirdman

TedEH said:


> Just 'cause they're there, you don't haaaaaave to use every knob and feature on an amp. Once you've found a half-decent neutral point of your amp and can be happy with that, the tweaking can end. If you're driven to keep messing with the sound, then I think you either just don't gel with the core tone of the amp, or should just embrace that you enjoy the tweaking on some level.
> 
> It's a roundabout way to say:
> I don't think there's really such a thing as "an amp that has too many options".



That's absolutely part of it. That's the unpopular opinion. I spent 2k+ on an amp packed with changeable parameters and, in my mind, I better use them. I love the core tone of the Mark V, but every time I'd sit down to play with it, I would say, "What about this parameter (extreme, fat, GEQ, GEQ preset)," and then I look up and I've accomplished zero actual practicing in an hour. I think they're fantastic amps but a JCM suits me better than a Randall 667.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BenjaminW said:


> I think this was you who said it, but Mark Vs are mid heavy, so you gotta scoop it like what Petrucci does to get it to sound right.



All Marks are middy as hell, but yeah the Mark V has some extra mids going on so you have to be a bit more extreme with the EQs. IMO it does seem to be slightly tighter than other versions of the Mark series, but you do have to compensate for the absolute shit ton of miss it has.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> Just 'cause they're there, you don't haaaaaave to use every knob and feature on an amp. Once you've found a half-decent neutral point of your amp and can be happy with that, the tweaking can end. If you're driven to keep messing with the sound, then I think you either just don't gel with the core tone of the amp, or should just embrace that you enjoy the tweaking on some level.
> 
> It's a roundabout way to say:
> I don't think there's really such a thing as "an amp that has too many options".


Between this and FRFR not being a guitar cab, those are probably the main things that push people away from modeling. Just because you can tweak an amp model down to its capacitor values and transformer construction, doesn't mean you should.


----------



## technomancer

Player OCD != an issue with a piece of gear

Just because you can't leave options alone or dial them in doesn't make it an issue with the gear

I see this a lot in the "too many knobs" crowd as well as in the "amp vs modeler crowd"... like the guys that can't use a modeler or effects unit because it has a lot of options because they would spend all their time tweaking and never play


----------



## USMarine75

cGoEcYk said:


> It's an unpopular opinion



No. It’s an incorrect opinion. There’s a difference.


----------



## Emperoff

I always find the "too many knobs" comment hilarious. I mean, you know it's an amp, right? Chances are most of the knobs are "volume, gain, bass, mids, treble" multiplied per channel.

My ENGL Sovereign combo has 4 channels and I wish it had more knobs, lol.


----------



## diagrammatiks

rokket2005 said:


> Fryette haven't really made amps in the last few years. I was thinking about it the other day after I saw John Browne put up a video about a pittbull he picked up. Prices on pittbulls have apparently doubled in the last 6 months, partially from production on everything shutting down and used prices in general going up, but also Fryette hasn't made a pittbull in years. They're custom order only on their site last I looked,the Deliverance might not be in production either. I don't think they make the Memphis or the Aether anymore either. I know it's a small team of like under 10 people, but since 2015 I think they made the Power Stations and the LXII and that's about it.



fryette also makes the synergy stuff.
I don't think they really produce anything anymore.
that's fine tho. Soldano survived for like 20 years making barely any amps a year.


----------



## TedEH

I'm usually in the real-is-better-than-modellers camp, but I think I'd have a great time with an Axe or Kemper or something. If I can only have one, I'd rather it be a real one, but all the tweakability sounds like a blast.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

My only issue is something like the AX8, where you have a shit ton of settings but the UI and lack of controls make it an absolute bitch compared to something like the Helix or even the proper Axe FX


----------



## technomancer

diagrammatiks said:


> fryette also makes the synergy stuff.
> I don't think they really produce anything anymore.
> that's fine tho. Soldano survived for like 20 years making barely any amps a year.



Are they? I thought BAD was building all that stuff since Synergy is part of the BAD family


----------



## diagrammatiks

technomancer said:


> Are they? I thought BAD was building all that stuff since Synergy is part of the BAD family



oh I guess they just designed it.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

They either designed the standalone power amp or they also build it.


----------



## StevenC

diagrammatiks said:


> fryette also makes the synergy stuff.
> I don't think they really produce anything anymore.
> that's fine tho. Soldano survived for like 20 years making barely any amps a year.





technomancer said:


> Are they? I thought BAD was building all that stuff since Synergy is part of the BAD family


I thought Fryette made the Synergy power amps and BAD makes the modules and other stuff. And didn't Fryette just come out with a new Deliverence series?


----------



## budda

technomancer said:


> Player OCD != an issue with a piece of gear
> 
> Just because you can't leave options alone or dial them in doesn't make it an issue with the gear
> 
> I see this a lot in the "too many knobs" crowd as well as in the "amp vs modeler crowd"... like the guys that can't use a modeler or effects unit because it has a lot of options because they would spend all their time tweaking and never play



Nailed it.


----------



## Emperoff

technomancer said:


> I see this a lot in the "too many knobs" crowd as well as in the "amp vs modeler crowd"... like the guys that can't use a modeler or effects unit because it has a lot of options because they would spend all their time tweaking and never play



I definetely prefer amps, but not because I'd spend all day tweaking. Rather the opposite: I'd spend A DAY making some presets and then never touch anything ever again. I feel modellers are completely wasted on me, which is why I got into rack preamps. I'll probably snag an Axe FM3 for my studio at some point, though.

I still use a Boss GT-100 live as a MIDI controller/FX unit for my amp. Works a treat and having a single pedal onstage is a godsend. Dirt cheap too, and I have useable presets stored just in case the amp blows mid-show (which has happened to me before).


----------



## Necky379

Fryette is barely hanging on? That’s a shame. I’ve never played any of his amps but he has a good story and I respect the fact that he’s stayed in the boutique amp game this long without any major controversy. Not easy nowadays.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Necky379 said:


> Fryette is barely hanging on? That’s a shame. I’ve never played any of his amps but he has a good story and I respect the fact that he’s stayed in the boutique amp game this long without any major controversy. Not easy nowadays.


It seems that way anyways. I think the recession damn near put him out of business.


----------



## technomancer

Emperoff said:


> I definetely prefer amps, but not because I'd spend all day tweaking. Rather the opposite: I'd spend A DAY making some presets and then never touch anything ever again. I feel modellers are completely wasted on me, which is why I got into rack preamps. I'll probably snag an Axe FM3 for my studio at some point, though.
> 
> I still use a Boss GT-100 live as a MIDI controller/FX unit for my amp. Works a treat and having a single pedal onstage is a godsend. Dirt cheap too, and I have useable presets stored just in case the amp blows mid-show (which has happened to me before).



Which is fine. Recognizing what you prefer and using that is great. I have issues when people make it sound like it's a problem with the device when they can't figure something out or don't want to deal with it.


----------



## Necky379

How unfortunate, hope he gets through it.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I was into modelers before. I love the tweaking and the different sounds you can get out of it. But having a toddler totally changed all that. Knowing that i only get a few short minutes of play time, I now gravitate towards amps that you can just plug straight to and sound good without tweaking too much. No pedals. Just an amp with a great master volume, doesnt need a boost, and a low noise floor.

And the Boss Waza Air is a godsend at nights. Companies should do those more.


----------



## GunpointMetal

technomancer said:


> Which is fine. Recognizing what you prefer and using that is great. I have issues when people make it sound like it's a problem with the device when they can't figure something out or don't want to deal with it.


I've had a few friends who wanna try the Helix, and more than once they'll tweak right past the sound they were looking for because they just HAVE to push a button or turn a knob. Most of the current gen have pretty useable sounds just throwing an amp model and a decent cab IR in the chain and turning the B/M/T knobs a little bit, just like an amp.


----------



## Thaeon

I'd be way more interested in a Pittbull if it had MIDI built in.


----------



## runbirdman

technomancer said:


> Which is fine. Recognizing what you prefer and using that is great. I have issues when people make it sound like it's a problem with the device when they can't figure something out or don't want to deal with it.



This is what I initially meant. Tweakability is great for some people and, while I liked the tones I got from the Mark V, I enjoy the playing experience much more with simpler amps. I definitely get the draw of amps like KSR, Revv, or even the Mark series, but they are not my cup of tea. I love Mesa products and have enjoyed every one I've owned from the Lonestar to the Fillmore to the Dual Rectifier, I just get option overload easily apparently.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The VH4 is absolute heaven and anyone who says it isn't a metal amp should be smacked on the pecker


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The VH4 is absolute heaven and anyone who says it isn't a metal amp should be smacked on the pecker


You assume they have a pecker.


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The VH4 is absolute heaven and anyone who says it isn't a metal amp should be smacked on the pecker


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> You assume they have a pecker.



I will provide one for them, and then smack it


----------



## oracles

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The VH4 is absolute heaven and anyone who says it isn't a metal amp should be smacked on the pecker



Aside from rectos, I cant think of an amp I found more disappointing or hate playing more than a VH4.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

oracles said:


> Aside from rectos, I cant think of an amp I found more disappointing or hate playing more than a VH4.



Damn....you just don't care about being insanely wrong, do you?


----------



## diagrammatiks

neither vh4s or rectos do anything for me.


----------



## Science_Penguin

I'm clearly not up on my modern amp knowledge, and have low standards for gain. To me anything with at least 100 watts of power and a distortion channel qualifies as a useable Metal amp.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> I'm clearly not up on my modern amp knowledge, and have low standards for gain. To me anything with at least 100 watts of power and a distortion channel qualifies as a useable Metal amp.



I'm pretty much in this camp. I have amps I really like, but honestly I can make almost anything work and it's not like the crowd knows the difference. Ultimately amps are just slight changes that the guitarist notices more than anyone else. Especially in metal.


----------



## Boofchuck

Noise gates are a fickle beast.

Mine got in the damn way this morning.


----------



## Boofchuck

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm pretty much in this camp. I have amps I really like, but honestly I can make almost anything work and it's not like the crowd knows the difference. Ultimately amps are just slight changes that the guitarist notices more than anyone else. Especially in metal.


I really appreciate this sentiment, making the most with what you have is critical.

And using that to really refine what you love is art.


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ultimately amps are just slight changes that the guitarist notices more than anyone else. Especially in metal.


To add on what you said, other than what the amp looks like, I feel like I genuinely can't tell the difference in sound between different modern metal amps.


----------



## SSK0909

GunpointMetal said:


> I've had a few friends who wanna try the Helix, and more than once they'll tweak right past the sound they were looking for because they just HAVE to push a button or turn a knob. Most of the current gen have pretty useable sounds just throwing an amp model and a decent cab IR in the chain and turning the B/M/T knobs a little bit, just like an amp.


I think a lot of the people who dislike digital units because of "endless tweaking" are probably just tweakers by heart. Give them a tube amp and they'll just star swapping heads, speakers, tubes, pickups, pedals. It's just a slower and more expensive way of endlessly tweaking 

I love digital because I get rid of constant tweaking. I find a couple of sounds I like withon the first couple of days, save preset, done. But you gotta show some restraint and use your ears instead of your eyes


----------



## USMarine75

technomancer said:


> Which is fine. Recognizing what you prefer and using that is great. I have issues when people make it sound like it's a problem with the device when they can't figure something out or don't want to deal with it.



Exactly. I have amps like the Kemper and KSR which have a ton of knobs... but lately the two amps I use the most, one has only a tone knob and the other only a volume. Sometimes you want to be able to dial in an exact sound, and other times you just want to plug in and sound good no matter what. But neither option is "more correct".

Hell, look some guitarists just dime all the knobs and control their sound with their guitar volume knob (e.g. Roy Buchanan, Jerry Cantrell, etc.). Then you have others that are constant knob tweakers, adding 10 band EQ and tons of pedals...


----------



## jarledge

the few of you that said you don't like rectos should know, that recto's eq doesn't function like other amps and the treble control dictates how the bass and middle respond. Turing it up gives you more flexibility. 

Also not all rectos are the same. I have played some killer ones and played some garbage ones. I owned a roadking and bought it without playing it as I had played other rectos and loved them. The RK was just garbage IMO. It briefed well, looks good on paper but was flat tone wise. The best one I have played/owned was an older edition 2 channel 50 watt single that I sold before going on a deployment so I'd had extra money to go home one more time. I regret having to sell it, and will eventually buy another one. 

The rectoverbs are the sleepers of the line. They tend to have much better cleans and the gain isn't so dry/grity. I don't know why they aren't more popular.


----------



## budda

If they are OG members, that tale is as old as time.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I think the folks going from limited real amp experience to a modeler expect too much from the modeled amp.

No, that model of a $5k boutique amp isn't "bad" or "artificial" sounding, it's just not really that much different than your $500 5150 when you want a modern metal tone.


----------



## nickgray

SSK0909 said:


> I think a lot of the people who dislike digital units because of "endless tweaking" are probably just tweakers by heart



I used to play through VSTs and tweaked the shit out of everything constantly. Thought of getting a real amp + load + pedals at the start of the year, but then the Event happened, and I settled for a Helix LT. I was pretty scared that I might get into a tweaking rabbit hole and end up never being satisfied with the sound, which is a massive bummer for a $1k unit, but nope. I put maybe 2 hours of programming into it when I first got it, and that's it. Barely touched it since. It acts like a 4 channel amp, with each channel (preset) having some extra options via footswitches (like extra gain or more effects, pretty basic stuff), and that's it for the most part.


----------



## oracles

jarledge said:


> the few of you that said you don't like rectos should know, that recto's eq doesn't function like other amps and the treble control dictates how the bass and middle respond. Turing it up gives you more flexibility.
> 
> Also not all rectos are the same. I have played some killer ones and played some garbage ones. I owned a roadking and bought it without playing it as I had played other rectos and loved them. The RK was just garbage IMO. It briefed well, looks good on paper but was flat tone wise. The best one I have played/owned was an older edition 2 channel 50 watt single that I sold before going on a deployment so I'd had extra money to go home one more time. I regret having to sell it, and will eventually buy another one.
> 
> The rectoverbs are the sleepers of the line. They tend to have much better cleans and the gain isn't so dry/grity. I don't know why they aren't more popular.



I've played a bunch of different revisions, models (stiletto, tremoverb, rectoverb, etc) and I just thoroughly dislike the core of what a rectifier is. Ive tried different EQs, cabs, boosts, they just aren't for me. A lot of my favourite records were made with them, I cant stand the feel and sound of one in the room.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

oracles said:


> I've played a bunch of different revisions, models (stiletto, tremoverb, rectoverb, etc) and I just thoroughly dislike the core of what a rectifier is. Ive tried different EQs, cabs, boosts, they just aren't for me. A lot of my favourite records were made with them, I cant stand the feel and sound of one in the room.



That's how I feel as well. I tried a couple; wasn't my thing. Tried the Mark series instead and never looked back.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I only like the Dual, can’t stand the Single, the triple is too mushy sounding, the Mark 4 & 5 is the bees knees, so is the JPC 2.
Been digging the Triple Crown for a few things.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I only like the Dual, can’t stand the Single, the triple is too mushy sounding, the Mark 4 & 5 is the bees knees, so is the JPC 2.
> Been digging the Triple Crown for a few things.



Didn't spend a lot of time with the Dual. Owned a Triple and Single Recto. I feel lied to because I was always told "tHe tRiPlE iS tIgHtEr aNd mOrE mEaN tHaN tHe dUaL oR sInGle". But when I had the Single, I got a FAR better tone than I did with the Triple. Was able to dial in a usable tone easier and quicker. 

I still preferred the Marks, but I wouldn't be afraid of owning a Single, or trying a early revision/MW Dual.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BenjaminW said:


> To add on what you said, other than what the amp looks like, I feel like I genuinely can't tell the difference in sound between different modern metal amps.


When it comes to amps, people have amps they gravitate towards because as players, we like certain things. They inspire us and compliment our playing.

Tonally, it honestly doesn't matter to anyone outside of the individual guitarist..but how an amp responds to our playing is what we like. It's like a nice suit. Yeah any suit that fits and isn't too ridiculous will do the job but that one "power suit" that gives you confidence to ace the job is important. I think it's more of a confidence thing. Some amps just feed our confidence more than others


----------



## A-Branger

TedEH said:


> Just 'cause they're there, you don't haaaaaave to use every knob and feature on an amp.


YUP, and this goes for the bass players:

jsut becasue youa re playing "Bass", it doesnt mean you HAVE to turn the "Bass" knob in your amp....... I worked on a rehearsal studio in the past for a year or two, the amount of times after a band finished and I went to check the room and found the bass knob cranked on a bass amp was unbelievable 



also, for the unpopular gear opinion of the day:

you dont need such a big amp/cab to play either both live and practice (this goes both guitar and bass players)


----------



## MASS DEFECT

The multiwatt recto is just as good as the sought after early revs. The dual is a bit tighter and saturates better. 

While rectos aren't my cup of tea, they sure sound good when other bands use em. Saw Metallica in one of their surprise record store show in sf, and Hetfield's recto sounded awesome. I couldnt see if he used a boost or what. Im not even sure if he uses one when he plays rectos.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Tremoverbs are so damn sexy. I think that was what originally got me into guitar playing and it's still the tone that get me going every time I hear it.


----------



## narad

MASS DEFECT said:


> The multiwatt recto is just as good as the sought after early revs. The dual is a bit tighter and saturates better.



I'd love for this to be true. The MW is a great amp, but I've never heard it sound close to the Rev C clips on youtube. I wish they had taken a Mark type approach and had a mode selector Rev C/F/G on it, that'd be killer. If they did that and offered a chome chassis/blackface, I'd probably order a new one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> I'd love for this to be true. The MW is a great amp, but I've never heard it sound close to the Rev C clips on youtube. I wish they had taken a Mark type approach and had a mode selector Rev C/F/G on it, that'd be killer. If they did that and offered a chome chassis/blackface, I'd probably order a new one.



The MW are just so damn close that unless you're after an old revision for purely esoteric reasons, I don't see not grabbing one.


----------



## diagrammatiks

jarledge said:


> the few of you that said you don't like rectos should know, that recto's eq doesn't function like other amps and the treble control dictates how the bass and middle respond. Turing it up gives you more flexibility.
> 
> Also not all rectos are the same. I have played some killer ones and played some garbage ones. I owned a roadking and bought it without playing it as I had played other rectos and loved them. The RK was just garbage IMO. It briefed well, looks good on paper but was flat tone wise. The best one I have played/owned was an older edition 2 channel 50 watt single that I sold before going on a deployment so I'd had extra money to go home one more time. I regret having to sell it, and will eventually buy another one.
> 
> The rectoverbs are the sleepers of the line. They tend to have much better cleans and the gain isn't so dry/grity. I don't know why they aren't more popular.



rectoverb and tremoverb are my favorite rectos.

honestly if they like put it in a brown shell and called it the lonestar it would have probably been super popular. 

marketed with the wrong name to the wrong crowd.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> The MW are just so damn close that unless you're after an old revision for purely esoteric reasons, I don't see not grabbing one.



Purely esoteric reasons are the only reasons I got.


----------



## Matt08642

Finally got to check out a Prestige AZ2402 in person and play it. IMO the neck profile is a massive step down from the Wizard, and just kind of feels like a Fender neck. I get that it's supposed to be different, but the shape was unpleasant/uncomfortable to me.


----------



## technomancer

The current 17mm Ibanez Wizard neck profile feels like a ruler and they should go back to the previous thicker Prestige neck profile


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

technomancer said:


> The current 17mm Ibanez Wizard neck profile feels like a ruler and they should go back to the previous thicker Prestige neck profile


I find the Ibanez necks I've used to be uncomfortable (I've found most guitars to have uncomfortable necks, actually) and prefer ESP/LTD/Schecter.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> The current 17mm Ibanez Wizard neck profile feels like a ruler and they should go back to the previous thicker Prestige neck profile



I remember trying the RG7620 neck and thinking weeeeeeew why don't more Ibby's feel like this? 

But honestly if the AZ is a Fender neck, then fuck yeah about time they adopt a better neck.  Always loved Fender profiles.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Instead of posting it in the Solar thread since there's currently people talking about, I'm gonna post it here 







I like how the pointy headstock looks on this.


----------



## jarledge

Matt08642 said:


> Finally got to check out a Prestige AZ2402 in person and play it. IMO the neck profile is a massive step down from the Wizard, and just kind of feels like a Fender neck. I get that it's supposed to be different, but the shape was unpleasant/uncomfortable to me.



yep the first one i played I was supremely disappointed. The profile was awful to me, the roasted neck was tacky, the fret job sucked and so did the finish. It was a premium model so I wasn't too surprised but still super underwhelmed for the price.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Instead of posting it in the Solar thread since there's currently people talking about, I'm gonna post it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like how the pointy headstock looks on this.


How's this an unpopular opinion?


----------



## jarledge

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Instead of posting it in the Solar thread since there's currently people talking about, I'm gonna post it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like how the pointy headstock looks on this.



saw it in his new video and went to the site to see if it was available in an 8 string. I dig it. No 8 string though. I would like an E 8 string with an evertune too but no such luck.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> How's this an unpopular opinion?



Because people were complaining about it in the Solar thread. One guy was even calling Ola lazy because he didn't design a new headstock shape.


----------



## Matt08642

technomancer said:


> The current 17mm Ibanez Wizard neck profile feels like a ruler and they should go back to the previous thicker Prestige neck profile



I should have said it's a step back from the 2010 Wizard Prestige, which is the only 6-string Wizard I've ever played lol (58mm heel, 18mm 1st fret, 20mm 12th fret)

I also got to try an RG8570z (It was phenomenal that a random Long & McQuade near me had both this and the AZ) and that neck was also unpleasant.

As far as I know it's the same thickness as the current Wizard, but I've heard it has fatter shoulders? Makes me worry about wanting to order an RG550 without ever playing one.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I remember trying the RG7620 neck and thinking weeeeeeew why don't more Ibby's feel like this?



My 7620 is my 2nd favorite neck to play (65mm heel 21.5mm, 1st fret, 23mm 12th fret), so I think my issue lies more with the shape/profile rather than just thickness.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Because people were complaining about it in the Solar thread. One guy was even calling Ola lazy because he didn't design a new headstock shape.


Oooooh..you mean stupid people.

Yeah...we don't listen to those.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I mean, it is kind of lazy, but 3 a side headstock designs that don't have break angles (ie, Dean, Gibson, BC Rich), which cause tunings problems, are a bit of a pain in the ass. Especially when you take IP into account.


----------



## lewis

Ola is a metal head through and through. You cut him and pantera riffs flow out.

There was no way, he was going to design classic style Gibson headstocks for his Solar LP shapes.

The aggressive inline headstock serves 3 purposes.

1) looks seriously seriously aggressive and Modern metal/current


2) Helps his brand awareness. I.e any guitar someone is playing regardless of shape is instantly recognisable as an Solar thanks to the headstock

3) solves the BS tuning stability issue other LPs with crap break angles etc have, by having 6 in a line angled instead
(ok granted this newer one is Evertuned equipped but still the original version was regular hardtail.)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Well, PRS are three a side and don't have a drastic break angle. Same with the Jackson headstock of similar type. Problem though would be designing a headstock that doesn't infringe on IP and doesn't have break angles. Hence the lazy complaints.


----------



## oniduder

smack my pecker do it, do it now


Science_Penguin said:


>


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Instead of posting it in the Solar thread since there's currently people talking about, I'm gonna post it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like how the pointy headstock looks on this.



Reminds me of the Monarkh.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

USMarine75 said:


> Reminds me of the Monarkh.
> 
> View attachment 83362



I'm pretty sure this is an insult.


----------



## Emperoff

technomancer said:


> The current 17mm Ibanez Wizard neck profile feels like a ruler and they should go back to the previous thicker Prestige neck profile



What? I already thought that of the older profiles


----------



## technomancer

Emperoff said:


> What? I already thought that of the older profiles



I can at least play the previous version even if it is on the thin side for my preference... they went back to the 80s Wizard that I literally can not play without my hand cramping. Shame as I actually love the look of a couple of the newer models like the RG1520M, RGR5220M, and RG652AHM and would actually buy one if I could play them


----------



## Mathemagician

technomancer said:


> The current 17mm Ibanez Wizard neck profile feels like a ruler and they should go back to the previous thicker Prestige neck profile



Wooo more for Wizard 3!!!

Wi. Zard. 3! Wi. Zard. 3!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm pretty sure this is hate speech.



Fixed


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

That Jackson LP monstrosity needs to be a bannable offense on this forum.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Yeah, Fortin is a shit company. They have the nerve to charge $1400 for an amp, and then when the standby is a consistent issue, tell your customers, "yeah, so?" Charging them 25% ($350) for a restock fee (as a "refund), and possibly make them pay shipping too? Like seriously? Yeah, this plus the fact that Fortin has been called out for stealing ideas, like dude, fuck Fortin. And when people post on the Fortin page that they need to make this right, they block you.



I'll never own one of their products, that's for sure. Fortin and Kiesel should go into business together, because they both have shitty product support and customer disservice as a company policy.

EDIT: Also, how I interpret it, they are taking it back, giving you 75% (minus shipping back, which is on the customer it seemed according to Louis most of the time) as a "refund," and since they are restocking it after refurbishing, what... reselling it at $1400? Seriously?


----------



## lewis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah, Fortin is a shit company. They have the nerve to charge $1400 for an amp, and then when the standby is a consistent issue, tell your customers, "yeah, so?" Charging them 25% ($350) for a restock fee (as a "refund), and possibly make them pay shipping too? Like seriously? Yeah, this plus the fact that Fortin has been called out for stealing ideas, like dude, fuck Fortin. And when people post on the Fortin page that they need to make this right, they block you.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll never own one of their products, that's for sure. Fortin and Kiesel should go into business together, because they both have shitty product support and customer disservice as a company policy.
> 
> EDIT: Also, how I interpret it, they are taking it back, giving you 75% (minus shipping back, which is on the customer it seemed according to Louis most of the time) as a "refund," and since they are restocking it after refurbishing, what... reselling it at $1400? Seriously?




Yo that's terrible.

Man fuck Fortin.
His loyal subjects act like the biased idiots on the fractal forum.

Expensive products = entitled dickheads.
They are always there.
His admin being a keyboard warrior then actually being just a quiet weedy guy is so fitting.


----------



## narad

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah, Fortin is a shit company. They have the nerve to charge $1400 for an amp, and then when the standby is a consistent issue, tell your customers, "yeah, so?" Charging them 25% ($350) for a restock fee (as a "refund), and possibly make them pay shipping too? Like seriously? Yeah, this plus the fact that Fortin has been called out for stealing ideas, like dude, fuck Fortin. And when people post on the Fortin page that they need to make this right, they block you.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll never own one of their products, that's for sure. Fortin and Kiesel should go into business together, because they both have shitty product support and customer disservice as a company policy.
> 
> EDIT: Also, how I interpret it, they are taking it back, giving you 75% (minus shipping back, which is on the customer it seemed according to Louis most of the time) as a "refund," and since they are restocking it after refurbishing, what... reselling it at $1400? Seriously?




At the same time, you can't take advice from someone who owns not just one, but *2* non-multiwatt 3-channel rectos.


----------



## gnoll

Are people serious about liking that Solar but not the Jackson Monarkh? They look 99.9% the same...


----------



## diagrammatiks

gnoll said:


> Are people serious about liking that Solar but not the Jackson Monarkh? They look 99.9% the same...



man one's got a goddamn evertune!!!!!
it's 2020. you could stick an evertune on a fresh hot turd and get a million likes.


----------



## USMarine75

gnoll said:


> Are people serious about liking that Solar but not the Jackson Monarkh? They look 99.9% the same...



Right? Looks pretty good to me. 









Plus this comes with the 90 degree wrist option...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


>




Something about this guy irks the living fuck out of me. I've seen a few of his videos...I find him both cute and annoying in a way that makes me want to take whatever he's reviewing and hit him over the head with it. I don't even know why. He just grates my nerves.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Instead of posting it in the Solar thread since there's currently people talking about, I'm gonna post it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like how the pointy headstock looks on this.



I for one would like to see him design a 3x3 headstock since the body is unique enough of a take on an LP/Singlecut.



USMarine75 said:


> Right? Looks pretty good to me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 83371
> 
> 
> Plus this comes with the 90 degree wrist option...



The Monarkh and the Friedman sig have different bodies. The Friedman is way better. And the reverse AT headstock matches it well. 

Jordan Ziff's 7 string Custom Friedman is better than Marty's though. It has that cool dish/arch carve. Marty's is flat but with just the bevels.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

lewis said:


> Yo that's terrible.
> 
> Man fuck Fortin.
> His loyal subjects act like the biased idiots on the fractal forum.
> 
> Expensive products = entitled dickheads.
> They are always there.
> His admin being a keyboard warrior then actually being just a quiet weedy guy is so fitting.


Yeah, Fortin should probably support their shitty products. It is obviously flawed, and to excuse it as "normal" to get out of dealing with the issue is just obtuse.


----------



## oracles

diagrammatiks said:


> you could stick an _evertune_ on a _fresh hot turd _and get a million likes!



is an evertune and a hot turd different somehow?


----------



## Necky379

I made my Super Wizard neck thinner. An Ibanez is an electric guitar with a paper thin neck and a flat fretboard.


----------



## BenjaminW

narad said:


> At the same time, you can't take advice from someone who owns not just one, but *2* non-multiwatt 3-channel rectos.


To add on a bit to your point, I can honestly see why people like rectos, but I also feel like there's too much hype around them, too.


----------



## Emperoff

Come at me, Monarkh haters!






https://reverb.com/item/33821579-ja...E6PuDJ154zv9K-_Wt6jT_cULcxqg-dsF7g1ACWqj-pmOU


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The Monarkh actually looks killer when it has the wide cutaway like that.

When it has the narrow cutaway, it looks like an abomination.


----------



## Adieu

The Sola looks less tacky


----------



## rokket2005

The best looking singlecut that isn't an LP or a PRS is the Fernandes Ravelle.


----------



## USMarine75

rokket2005 said:


> The best looking singlecut that isn't an LP or a PRS is the Fernandes Ravelle.




Reverend FTW


----------



## jarledge

I always liked the warrior isabella for being a little bit different variation on the single cut. It could be refined but I liked the carve top on it. The PRS single cut is great and I love my Kiesel SCBM8.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

All LPs are stupid. End of story


----------



## BornToLooze

I think if they made Matt Heafy's signature Les Paul into a Black Beauty it would be the best looking 7 of all time.


----------



## GunpointMetal

BornToLooze said:


> I think if they made Matt Heafy's signature Les Paul into a Black Beauty it would be the best looking 7 of all time.


EW, gold hardware.


----------



## efiltsohg

A-Branger said:


> you dont need such a big amp/cab to play either both live and practice (this goes both guitar and bass players)



right... there's a lot of things I don't "need" but I still want them and they make me smile. Which is 99% of the point of playing guitar for me.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

GunpointMetal said:


> EW, gold hardware.



Speaking of this. 

I'll take EVERY color of hardware (chrome, gold, smoked chrome) over black.


----------



## technomancer

efiltsohg said:


> right... there's a lot of things I don't "need" but I still want them and they make me smile. Which is 99% of the point of playing guitar for me.



Exactly. This is why I have 4x12s and am building myself 50w and 100w amps. Do I need it? Hell no, but it certainly is fun.

Actually I'll add one: anybody who talks about "need" related to guitar gear should just stop as you don't need an instrument at all unless it is how you are making your living. That eliminates 99% of the guys on here, usually including the guys posting the opinion.


----------



## GunpointMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Speaking of this.
> 
> I'll take EVERY color of hardware (chrome, gold, smoked chrome) over black.


 Smoke chrome is probably my favorite on most finishes, but I don't mind black. I've yet to see a guitar with gold hardware that doesn't look tacky AF to me, though. Gold hardware and MOP/Abalone binding or block inlays are a no go for me. Or pretty much any of Schecter's inlays aside from dots.


----------



## diagrammatiks

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Speaking of this.
> 
> I'll take EVERY color of hardware (chrome, gold, smoked chrome) over black.



gold is clearly the worst.


----------



## USMarine75

GunpointMetal said:


> Smoke chrome is probably my favorite on most finishes, but I don't mind black. I've yet to see a guitar with gold hardware that doesn't look tacky AF to me, though. Gold hardware and MOP/Abalone binding or block inlays are a no go for me. Or pretty much any of Schecter's inlays aside from dots.


----------



## diagrammatiks

USMarine75 said:


>



no no no no no no


----------



## Mathemagician

BornToLooze said:


> I think if they made Matt Heafy's signature Les Paul into a Black Beauty it would be the best looking 7 of all time.



IIRC his original Gibson had either gold or silver hardware which he swapped out for black + EMGs. 



diagrammatiks said:


> silver/chrome is clearly the worst.



FTFY.


----------



## rokket2005

I really like that green thinline cabronita. Wish it wasn't a Japanese exclusive.


----------



## SexHaver420

Every power tube smaller than an EL34 is bad.

Kt88s are hands down the best tube.


----------



## USMarine75

rokket2005 said:


> I really like that green thinline cabronita. Wish it wasn't a Japanese exclusive.



Andertons has it and it says they don't ship to the US... but, it let's me add it to my cart and checkout


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

efiltsohg said:


> right... there's a lot of things I don't "need" but I still want them and they make me smile. Which is 99% of the point of playing guitar for me.



This. Gimme a 100+ watt amp and a 4x12...because I want it. Get that pansy ass mini head 2x12 nonsense out of here. Be a real man


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> Every power tube smaller than an EL34 is bad.
> 
> Kt88s are hands down the best tube.



Wrong. KT90s are superior


----------



## GunpointMetal

USMarine75 said:


>


Yep, all of these would look better with chrome or smoke chrome hardware. They all look things an old woman would find classy, lol.


----------



## diagrammatiks

GunpointMetal said:


> Yep, all of these would look better with chrome or smoke chrome hardware. They all look things an old woman would find classy, lol.



ya my grandma would be like I love this.


----------



## akinari

diagrammatiks said:


> ya my grandma would be like I love this.



You say that like it's a bad thing


----------



## Matt08642

USMarine75 said:


>



I still can't get over how ugly this color is to me. The PIA in general doesn't sit right in my eyes though


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


>



I guess me and you win the most unpopular opinion in the thread. I love those. 

Also, I bring this up too because as much as I love my Kenny Hickey sig I used to have, I haaated how it had black hardware instead of smoked chrome.

The proper Schecter Kenny:



Mine


----------



## gnoll

SexHaver420 said:


> Every power tube smaller than an EL34 is bad.
> 
> Kt88s are hands down the best tube.



To be fair I think EL84s are cool in Vox style amps.

Other than that pretty much agree.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mini amps are a fad for idiots. Wattage doesn't equal volume, metal players mainly rely on preamp distortion, so wanting a low wattage amp that "can be cranked at lower volume" makes no sense. Not to mention lots of 100+ watt amps sound good at lower volume. 100 watt heads aren't that heavy unless you have some sort of medical problem and unless you live in a shoebox, the few inches dropped off the size really isn't that big a deal. Not to mention the retube cost isn't that much. If you're that poor that two extra tubes are gonna ruin your life, stick with solid state.

Get a goddamn full sized one and stop being stupid. The volume, size, and weight, aren't that big a deal.


----------



## TedEH

Volume and size? I agree with you. Weight though? Nah, there's no reason to carry around extra weight if a small amp sounds good.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

An amp is like 50-60 lbs and they have handles. They aren't heavy. Are they super lightweight? No...but lifting 50 lbs every now and then won't kill you unless there's something wrong with you.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> An amp is like 50-60 lbs and they have handles. They aren't heavy. Are they super lightweight? No...but lifting 50 lbs every now and then won't kill you unless there's something wrong with you.


 My whole rig weighs 60lbs including the guitar in a hard case.


----------



## StevenC

GunpointMetal said:


> My whole rig weighs 60lbs including the guitar in a hard case.


I guess if we all have good tone, nobody does.


----------



## GunpointMetal

StevenC said:


> I guess if we all have good tone, nobody does.


What does that even mean?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> My whole rig weighs 60lbs including the guitar in a hard case.



Wheels and handles make things easy. I've never had trouble loading my full sized head and 4x12 into and out of a gig. It's moderately heavy but it's not like I have to carry both in my arms across the Sahara. I've never once thought "Gee...I wish I didn't have to carry this moderately sized amp a few feet. If only I could make it lighter!"


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Wheels and handles make things easy. I've never had trouble loading my full sized head and 4x12 into and out of a gig. It's moderately heavy but it's not like I have to carry both in my arms across the Sahara. I've never once thought "Gee...I wish I didn't have to carry this moderately sized amp a few feet. If only I could make it lighter!"


 A few load in/out trips at the Warehouse and you might think that, lol. Carrying stuff is cool until you realize you don't have to.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> A few load in/out trips at the Warehouse and you might think that, lol. Carrying stuff is cool until you realize you don't have to.



I don't even carry my stuff anymore. I pay people to do that. I've got too much shit to do before a gig anyways, so I leave that to others.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Counter-point:

I've never heard anyone complain about my tone, live or in studio. I ain't paying money I don't need to spend, lifting weight I don't need to lift, and taking up space in my apartment because "tone".


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Counter-point:
> 
> I've never heard anyone complain about my tone, live or in studio. I ain't paying money I don't need to spend, lifting weight I don't need to lift, and taking up space in my apartment because "tone".



If it works, it works. I'm talking about those assholes who will pop into a thread about a new amp and go "Oh...if they make a -5 watt, 2lb, mini head that can fit in my back pocket I'd consider it." As if they couldn't just buy the fucking full sized head and shut the hell up. Those folks


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I don't even carry my stuff anymore. I pay people to do that. I've got too much shit to do before a gig anyways, so I leave that to others.


 Must be nice. I'm lucky if I sell enough t shirts to not have to spend my own money on dinner before the show.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> Must be nice. I'm lucky if I sell enough t shirts to not have to spend my own money on dinner before the show.



This is what friends and fans are for, lol. I've got a drag-kid and a couple band friends I'll pay for such things. I'm too busy getting ready before a show so I let them set my shit up and do soundcheck and whatnot. It doesn't cost much and even if I don't break even, it's worth it just to not have to bother.


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> If it works, it works. I'm talking about those assholes who will pop into a thread about a new amp and go "Oh...if they make a -5 watt, 2lb, mini head that can fit in my back pocket I'd consider it." As if they couldn't just buy the fucking full sized head and shut the hell up. Those folks



I just noticed you keep mentioning heads specifically. Do they still keep the 4x12 cabs in these mini-amp setups?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> I just noticed you keep mentioning heads specifically. Do they still keep the 4x12 cabs in these mini-amp setups?



I've seen it. And at that point wtf is even the point?

A 2x12 I could understand. It's considerably less size and weight. Even though I still don't think they're that bad, I can understand wanting a cab that takes up less space because those can literally be the size of a person. But acting like a full size head is some massive burden you can't deal with just irks my nerves.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Yeah. Big amps, with big tubes and iron are the best. Everyone should own at least one. 

More so, if you are into modelers and all the IR and FRFR stuff. YOU NEED TO OWN AT LEAST ONE GOOD TUBE AMP. Experiencing those amps first hand and hearing them in the room or live would better inform your choices when dialing patches. A lot of the people I encounter who have invested more money on modelers but have zero real amp experience, have the thinnest sound live. 

Bro, that's not how a 5150 should sound like.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Oh...and another thing Fuck whatever your modeler is supposed to be modeling. "Does it sound like a VHT?" Who cares how close it sounds? Does it sound good..that's the question.

Stop looking at modelers as trying to get every tube amp out of a computer and more along the lines of each of those models is a different tone to work with. You'll be a lot happier. Does it sound exactly like that amp? No, but if you wanna do that then use the same power section, matching cab, etc.

Fuck all that. The only thing you should be asking yourself is if it sounds good.


----------



## Matt08642

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> If it works, it works. I'm talking about those assholes who will pop into a thread about a new amp and go "Oh...if they make a -5 watt, 2lb, mini head that can fit in my back pocket I'd consider it." As if they couldn't just buy the fucking full sized head and shut the hell up. Those folks



I like when that happens in signature guitar threads "Wow, if it came with a different finish, hardware, number of strings, different pickups, was a longer scale with a slight fan, and the body was a different shape, I'd consider picking up the import version if it was on sale"



MASS DEFECT said:


> Yeah. Big amps, with big tubes and iron are the best. Everyone should own at least one.
> 
> More so, if you are into modelers and all the IR and FRFR stuff. YOU NEED TO OWN AT LEAST ONE GOOD TUBE AMP. Experiencing those amps first hand and hearing them in the room or live would better inform your choices when dialing patches. A lot of the people I encounter who have invested more money on modelers but have zero real amp experience, have the thinnest sound live.
> 
> Bro, that's not how a 5150 should sound like.



Ironically I only own the 6505MH, but this all day. the best 5150 patch I've ever created was when I had my amp turned up and was ABing it with my real amp for like 2 hours to get it just right. Oddly enough, the knob positions and settings inside the modeler didn't correspond whatsoever to the real life ones, and I had to use an EQ to come close. Granted this is on an ancient PODX3, but I feel like people get a modeler, see a "Just turn it to 666 bro" suggestion, and might be let down without ever hearing what a 5150 (or any other amp) should sound like.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh...and another thing Fuck whatever your modeler is supposed to be modeling. "Does it sound like a VHT?" Who cares how close it sounds? Does it sound good..that's the question.
> 
> Stop looking at modelers as trying to get every tube amp out of a computer and more along the lines of each of those models is a different tone to work with. You'll be a lot happier. Does it sound exactly like that amp? No, but if you wanna do that then use the same power section, matching cab, etc.
> 
> Fuck all that. The only thing you should be asking yourself is if it sounds good.


 This is a really hard concept for people. I've been using modelers for a long time now, and not one time was I thinking "Man, I hope this sounds just like *insert amp name" all I ever worried about was that it made the sounds I wanted. I was mostly that way with real amps too. When I had a 5150 I wasn't worried about if it sounded like another 5150 someone else had, just that it sounded good. The thing with tube amps, IME, is that its pretty rare to find two of even the same model that sound exactly the same with the knobs set the same, so why would I expect a component-based model of ONE amp to sound exactly like some mythical tone I heard on a recording or at a show?


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> An amp is like 50-60 lbs and they have handles. They aren't heavy. Are they super lightweight? No...but lifting 50 lbs every now and then won't kill you unless there's something wrong with you.



I've had all kinds of rigs and everything is a compromise. You just have to think about what things will you sacrifice. 

My main amp weights 70kg inside the roadcase. 40 without it, with a single handle. I bought it because I knew I wouldn't be the one carrying it. It travels on the truck and gets unloaded with the rest of the backline by the guys that set up the stage. My rehearsal place is on a three floor building *with no elevator*. the moment I have to carry it, I'll probably sell it.

My other rig, which I use in my other band where I play in smaller places (and for less money) is a 1x12 combo with a pedalboard, because I'm the one carrying it. I'm not carrying back a 70kg amp three floors upstairs after a show. No fucking way.

Weight is a concern, and after years of running a 30kg head into a 50kg cabinet day in, day out in summer tours I jus can't be bothered anymore. I'm getting serviced a DV Mark DV40 combo that's a 17kg 40W 212 tube amp and it's the perfect portable powered cab. That will be my next rig and if it works as I expect, I might just get another and sell the tank.


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Stop looking at modelers as trying to get every tube amp out of a computer and more along the lines of each of those models is a different tone to work with. You'll be a lot happier. Does it sound exactly like that amp? No, but if you wanna do that then use the same power section, matching cab, etc.


I wanna try modelers, but I feel like I'm gonna end up spending more time trying to find a good tone I like more than I would be playing the damn thing. The nice thing about modelers is that you have a wide variety of amps to choose from without having to spend a fortune on buying the real amps and you only have to spend your money once (I could be completely wrong on that part, but I have no experience with amp modelers so yeah).


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Heavy guitars are fun. 

Superstrat shapes aren't the most comfortable. 

Chords are still comfortable with a giant nut width and a thin neck. 

I don't see the appeal of an evertune. 

Guitars without floyds feel like they're missing something. 

Locking tuners make life a hell of a lot easier. 

Too hot pickups are great if you're good. 

The more gadgets and switches I can put on my guitar (not dumb things like onboard effects, more like an EMG PA2 or a sustainiac) the happier I am. 

Soldering and doing a good setup at home isn't hard to learn, you just have to take your time. 

Ebony makes the best fretboards. 

I will never buy a non b stock new piece of gear. 

Gain > volume for modern high gain, volume > gain for vintage high gain. 

Boost the mids, not scoop them. 

Thank you for coming to my TED talk


----------



## technomancer

Matt08642 said:


> I still can't get over how ugly this color is to me. The PIA in general doesn't sit right in my eyes though



Unless by this color you are talking about the gold hardware you may want to get your eyes checked as the two guitars in your photos are not the same color... the PIA is gold and the strat is a cream burst over a trans cream'ish on flame maple (assuming that is the RK strat).


----------



## Matt08642

technomancer said:


> Unless by this color you are talking about the gold hardware you may want to get your eyes checked as the two guitars in your photos are not the same color... the PIA is gold and the strat is a cream burst over a trans cream'ish on flame maple (assuming that is the RK strat).



Looks like one of the images didn't load so I missed it when I was removing others:




I meant the PIA gold color though, looks like dehydrated person pee to me


----------



## Science_Penguin

Is it unpopular to say I dig the shit out of Vai's entire aesthetic?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Science_Penguin said:


> Is it unpopular to say I dig the shit out of Vai's entire aesthetic?


He's responsible for some of my favorite guitars


----------



## Matt08642

Science_Penguin said:


> Is it unpopular to say I dig the shit out of Vai's entire aesthetic?



This is why the PIA and that color in particular caught me off guard - I can't think of another Japanese JEM that I find ugly. I generally like Steve's guitar choices


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I don't care for Ibanez at all, but I give Vai credit for sticking with them all these years instead of hopping around. And as much of a gear whore as he is, George Lynch as well for sticking by ESP.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I don't care for Ibanez at all, but I give Vai credit for sticking with them all these years instead of hopping around. And as much of a gear whore as he is, George Lynch as well for sticking by ESP.



If a company was willing to build me whatever crazy idea I threw at them, I'd probably stick with them too.


----------



## rokket2005

Matt08642 said:


> I meant the PIA gold color though, looks like dehydrated person pee to me



Dehydrated pee? What are you canadians doing up there?


----------



## Matt08642

rokket2005 said:


> Dehydrated pee? What are you canadians doing up there?



Lol, as in the pee of someone who is dehydrated and needs some water


----------



## Science_Penguin

Matt08642 said:


> Lol, as in the pee of someone who is dehydrated and needs some water



Hey, the PIA doesn't look like my pee!


----------



## budda

BenjaminW said:


> I wanna try modelers, but I feel like I'm gonna end up spending more time trying to find a good tone I like more than I would be playing the damn thing. The nice thing about modelers is that you have a wide variety of amps to choose from without having to spend a fortune on buying the real amps and you only have to spend your money once (I could be completely wrong on that part, but I have no experience with amp modelers so yeah).



Set and forget, just like the real thing.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> If a company was willing to build me whatever crazy idea I threw at them, I'd probably stick with them too.


Hey, other than that strange "Super V" thing (which I think was put upon him by ESP, probably similar to that weird guitar they had Dave Mustaine endorse), Lynch's signature guitars have been pretty cool. Especially the Kamikaze Star.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The Dave Mustaine ESP V was originally supposed to be Morgan Lander's sig but she turned down the offer. Funny how that works


----------



## BornToLooze

GunpointMetal said:


> EW, gold hardware.



That's one of the only guitars it works on. That being said, it looks a lot better when it's had the shit played out of it.




But that's the guitar that made me fall in love guitars in one of my dad's old guitar catalogs.I still think it's the best looking guitar of all time.


----------



## WarMachine

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Hey, other than that strange "Super V" thing (which I think was put upon him by ESP, probably similar to that weird guitar they had Dave Mustaine endorse), Lynch's signature guitars have been pretty cool. Especially the Kamikaze Star.


I REALLY dug that Mustaine V. Yeah, i know, i'm a MegaDave fanboy from '91. But out of all the V's i've played, that felt the most balanced. I loved the body size on that guitar. Most other guitars feel a small on the body for me. Except for ML's. That V was another exception.


----------



## Mathemagician

The “Axxion”. I would have left any guitar company that made me hold that stupid fucking thing too. Much less “endorse” it. Ain’t no endorsement checks clearing if no ones buying it.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I meant this ugly Dali-esque depiction of a back alley abortion.






The Max Cavalera guitars that had bits and pieces of BC Rich guitars and other stuff were at least semi decent looking.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yep the bottom one was the one I was thinking of. 

And actually that top black one would look at least 37.4% better if flipped along the neck line 180*, like how the ibanez fireman is just a flipped iceman.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I will never forgive ESP for not making the Mana sig easily available in the US.......I DON'T CARE IF IT WOULDN'T SELL HERE BECAUSE MANA ISN'T WELL KNOWN.


----------



## technomancer

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I will never forgive ESP for not making the Mana sig easily available in the US.......I DON'T CARE IF IT WOULDN'T SELL HERE BECAUSE MANA ISN'T WELL KNOWN.



Meh if you really want one you can easily order straight from Ikebe Gakki. They take product inquiries in english and accept paypal. I got two Fender Japan guitars from them earlier this year.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

technomancer said:


> Meh if you really want one you can easily order straight from Ikebe Gakki. They take product inquiries in english and accept paypal. I got two Fender Japan guitars from them earlier this year.



THAT'S NOT THE POINT! ESP SHOULD LOVE US MORE


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> THAT'S NOT THE POINT! ESP SHOULD LOVE US MORE


USA stans ESP

/s of course


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Give me an Akira sig, you fucking bastards!


----------



## Science_Penguin

Or Sugizo... And pick the model he's actually fucking known for playing this time!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Ugh...I need for my band to take off so I can get an ESP endorsement and get a PROPER signature. No one else is being creative so it's up to me to make some wild looking guitar that SSO will bitch and moan about because it's not a basic ass super strat


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ugh...I need for my band to take off so I can get an ESP endorsement and get a PROPER signature. No one else is being creative so it's up to me to make some wild looking guitar that SSO will bitch and moan about because it's not a basic ass super strat


My basic ass super strat (sans floyd) with the 70s fisher price toy nightmares says, "Fuck you!"


----------



## USMarine75

Matt08642 said:


> I still can't get over how ugly this color is to me. The PIA in general doesn't sit right in my eyes though



Truth be told I don’t like it either 

The pickup covers especially are toooo much.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He's responsible for some of my favorite guitars



Don’t forget...







(Had to use stock photos I’m on my work phone.)


----------



## Rex

USMarine75 said:


> Don’t forget...
> 
> View attachment 83437
> 
> 
> View attachment 83438
> 
> 
> (Had to use stock photos I’m on my work phone.)



Great looking guitars, i feel the same vibe with Dino Cazares custom models, the guy has good taste for sure!!


----------



## A-Branger

efiltsohg said:


> right... there's a lot of things I don't "need" but I still want them and they make me smile. Which is 99% of the point of playing guitar for me.



oh dont get me wrong, you play whatever you want to play. My point is that such big cabs/amps are not a necessity. Every tread and recomendation I read in this forum and in other places makes it look like you either have a 4x12 guitar and a 8x10 bass monster or you wont be able to "keep up" or be able to be heard at all 




TedEH said:


> Volume and size? I agree with you. Weight though? Nah, there's no reason to carry around extra weight if a small amp sounds good.





GunpointMetal said:


> A few load in/out trips at the Warehouse and you might think that, lol. Carrying stuff is cool until you realize you don't have to.



^^ these guys get it


when I was fully active playing in bars and practicing twice a week, I did it with a 1x12 bass combo (currently with a 1x15 but not active enough). A "big" square shape thing which was the most un-comfortable heavy thing to carry. Too heavy to need some kind of trolley, but too small too need some kind of trolley (and the annoyance to settup/carry a trolley and all that)..... That "little" guy keep up with all the band practices, small and medium size gigs I did. Would a bigger amp would have been better? fuck yeh!... would have been "necessary"?... nope.... would my back thank me for it?.... kinda, as it did fuck me up carry the little bastard around (no place has a 2 step walk from the car into room/stage), but I would be x100 times more fucked with something bigger

if your band reach a point in which you got fulltime roadies, then yeah, get a wall of cabs, who cares. But for the 90% of people who gig out there, they dont "need" such big amps to play live/practice.... my un-popular opinion


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Wow more people want the ESP sig 'abominations' now...  

Aren't the Sugizo Horizons available worldwide? At least they were in the international ESP sites at some point. Sure they're not his flagship models but he certainly plays them (X Japan are more recognizable worldwide than Luna Sea). 

The only way to get the Japanese sigs popular to the masses is to get all these Japanese artists popular enough to gain worldwide commercial exposure by buying their music/merch/signature gear etc. Granted it's better now, but like that's going to happen. Language is still a big hurdle, and J-Rock is still a niche market. Also factor that if they still stay with ESP, since Japan are still enamoured with American instruments. ESP lost 2 guys from Luna Sea (J and Inoran) to Fender (which is a big deal), and Sugizo is giving them some lusty looks too. 

You can also do what Drakkar said and BE the artist that gets big enough to have ESP knocking at your door. So git gud. 

Or you can just order from the Japanese sites and fork out the cash. There's been enough NGD threads here with those sigs that it can't be hard.


----------



## TedEH

I don't buy the machismo BS that "50lbs isn't heavy". Yeah it is. Not everyone has the same level of strength, or is carrying things as often. Some people DO in fact have things wrong with them that make it more difficult to carry gear. Fvck those guys right? No guitar for you unless you're a fully able macho manly man who carries two Roadsters 10km uphill every day to jams.

Having a tiny 15lbs head was a life saver when I had to play shows on a broken foot. A foot that I broke trying to carry heavier gear, by the way.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Wow more people want the ESP sig 'abominations' now...
> 
> Aren't the Sugizo Horizons available worldwide? At least they were in the international ESP sites at some point. Sure they're not his flagship models but he certainly plays them (X Japan are more recognizable worldwide than Luna Sea).
> 
> The only way to get the Japanese sigs popular to the masses is to get all these Japanese artists popular enough to gain worldwide commercial exposure by buying their music/merch/signature gear etc. Granted it's better now, but like that's going to happen. Language is still a big hurdle, and J-Rock is still a niche market. Also factor that if they still stay with ESP, since Japan are still enamoured with American instruments. ESP lost 2 guys from Luna Sea (J and Inoran) to Fender (which is a big deal), and Sugizo is giving them some lusty looks too.
> 
> You can also do what Drakkar said and BE the artist that gets big enough to have ESP knocking at your door. So git gud.
> 
> Or you can just order from the Japanese sites and fork out the cash. There's been enough NGD threads here with those sigs that it can't be hard.



North America isn't covered by the ESP International lines, we're "lucky" enough to get our own highly curated offerings.


----------



## budda

If your entire band isn't moving all the gear from vehicle to stage and you don't have roadies, you need to have a conversation . Regardless of how much gear there is.

"Share the load" - LOTR.

Lightweight makes way more sense when it's just you carrying your own stuff for sure.


----------



## USMarine75

TedEH said:


> *I don't buy the machismo BS that "50lbs isn't heavy"*. Yeah it is. Not everyone has the same level of strength, or is carrying things as often. Some people DO in fact have things wrong with them that make it more difficult to carry gear. Fvck those guys right? No guitar for you unless you're a fully able macho manly man who carries two Roadsters 10km uphill every day to jams.
> 
> Having a tiny 15lbs head was a life saver when I had to play shows on a broken foot. A foot that I broke trying to carry heavier gear, by the way.



It's the same people that shit on "dad rock" for not being brutal enough. As if music is "brutal". Dickheads in mosh pits are brutal. But music? No. Unless we're talking about Pitbull... because that shit is fucking brutal.

For reference I've been powerlifting for 30 years and I'm usually one of the strongest people in any gym. And even I hate transporting amps like my 5150 combo, Soldano heads, or 412 cabs.

So anyone suggesting you're not "manly enough" if you have an issue with 70 lbs amps is trying to dick measure and they're bringing a pencil to a sword fight.

/rant


----------



## GunpointMetal

budda said:


> If your entire band isn't moving all the gear from vehicle to stage and you don't have roadies, you need to have a conversation . Regardless of how much gear there is.
> 
> "Share the load" - LOTR.
> 
> Lightweight makes way more sense when it's just you carrying your own stuff for sure.


Everyone I play with is pretty good about it, but if I can get my Helix bag, my wedge, and my guitar in one trip, that means I can make two extra trips with drums and either way we're moving faster and being more efficient. There are only a few reasons to haul a huge rig around. You actually need the volume (which is very few bands, even if the guitarist has some sort of disorder where he can't play properly without being stupidly loud, but then you have a guitarist problem, not a gear problem), someone is expecting you to have the gear on stage, your rig is a curated collection and you want to show it off (to the other guitar players, because they're the only ones who even kind of give a shit), you think "feel" makes you play better (who knows, maybe it does, every guitarist I've ever met in person that talks about this plays the same five licks in every song), or modern rigs are scary.


----------



## WarMachine

Y'know, something that has never made any sense to me is; people say they can't _*feel *_air pushing behind them when using a monitor + preamp to FOH like they did with the cab behind them. But i've not seen anyone live yet (at least where i am or remotely close) that uses the monitor + preamp to FOH put the monitor behind them...doesn't that _*solve *_the problem of pushing air?  Just put the damn monitor behind you vs in front of you? Never had that as an issue, and that's with a loud drummer..


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Matrix GT1600 + Fractal AX8/Helix + Lightweight DV Mark Cabs with high power neodymium speakers = Lightweight high volume gig rig. 

Those DV Mark vertical 2x12s , you can even lift with one hand and they push out 300 watts.


----------



## GunpointMetal

WarMachine said:


> Y'know, something that has never made any sense to me is; people say they can't _*feel *_air pushing behind them when using a monitor + preamp to FOH like they did with the cab behind them. But i've not seen anyone live yet (at least where i am or remotely close) that uses the monitor + preamp to FOH put the monitor behind them...doesn't that _*solve *_the problem of pushing air? Just put the damn monitor behind you vs in front of you? Never had that as an issue, and that's with a loud drummer..


 That's exactly how I do it. Small stage with no PA support, one 12" wedge on a pole behind me covers as much of the room as my 4x12 used to (and you don't have to be standing in the exact right spot for it to sound good) and if it someplace where I really need stage volume for some reason, a second monitor on the floor in wedge position between the legs of the stand for the first. Even with two wedges and a pole, its still a quicker setup than my old amp/cab/pedalboard rig.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SMH at the folks who struggle to carry amp heads.

Life must be really hard.


----------



## budda

I carry 4 guitars at a time to load in and out, unless I'm tired or someone beat me to 2 of them . I want that shit done so I can not do it again for a few hours. 

Not everyone hustles though.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> SMH at the folks who struggle to carry amp heads.
> 
> Life must be really hard.


 It's not that its a struggle, its just that its wholly unnecessary in 99.9% of situations.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> It's not that its a struggle, its just that its wholly unnecessary in 99.9% of situations.



Having gear itself is unnecessary unless it's paying your bills.

It's a damn amp head...you aren't carrying an injured ally on your shoulders 30 miles across enemy lines. Just carry the goddamn thing.


----------



## diagrammatiks

completely unnecessary.

tube amps sound best when the power tubes are actually swinging and overdrive when they hit the rails. 
you don't need 100 watts to do.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

diagrammatiks said:


> completely unnecessary.
> 
> tube amps sound best when the power tubes are actually swinging and overdrive when they hit the rails.
> you don't need 100 watts to do.



Most metal tones are preamp distortion..power amp saturation isn't usually what you want.

This is why we use tube screamers..to slam the preamp tubes..not the power tubes


----------



## Science_Penguin

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Wow more people want the ESP sig 'abominations' now...
> 
> Aren't the Sugizo Horizons available worldwide? At least they were in the international ESP sites at some point. Sure they're not his flagship models but he certainly plays them (X Japan are more recognizable worldwide than Luna Sea).
> 
> The only way to get the Japanese sigs popular to the masses is to get all these Japanese artists popular enough to gain worldwide commercial exposure by buying their music/merch/signature gear etc. Granted it's better now, but like that's going to happen. Language is still a big hurdle, and J-Rock is still a niche market. Also factor that if they still stay with ESP, since Japan are still enamoured with American instruments. ESP lost 2 guys from Luna Sea (J and Inoran) to Fender (which is a big deal), and Sugizo is giving them some lusty looks too.
> 
> You can also do what Drakkar said and BE the artist that gets big enough to have ESP knocking at your door. So git gud.
> 
> Or you can just order from the Japanese sites and fork out the cash. There's been enough NGD threads here with those sigs that it can't be hard.



They were available for a brief period, but I don't see them listed on the US site anymore. I think even with X Japan's greater comparative success in the west, they overestimated the number of Sugizo fans who specifically favor that part of his body of work.

Has he been making noise about moving over to Fender? J and Inoran, I can understand, but I always figured Sugizo had the Vai deal going and would stick with the company willing to both cater to his eccentric tastes and hook him up whenever he needs a Strat fix.


----------



## diagrammatiks

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Most metal tones are preamp distortion..power amp saturation isn't usually what you want.
> 
> This is why we use tube screamers..to slam the preamp tubes..not the power tubes



I can tell that you've never played a properly designed low wattage amp...

no fault of your own because not very many of them exist. 

btw you use a tube screamer to slam a preamp tube/2. half of one tube. It's not slamming more then that because the gain pot is right after that stage in 99 percent of amps. 

if you're not depending on the amp to do the entirety of your volume production there is absolutely no reason to use only what's necessary for the mic to pick up. 

you only need headroom if you need your amp to be loud. if you don't need your amp to be loud then you don't need all that much headroom.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Having gear itself is unnecessary unless it's paying your bills.


 Is that why all the crusty punk bands around here don't even bring their own cymbals?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

diagrammatiks said:


> I can tell that you've never played a properly designed low wattage amp...
> 
> no fault of your own because not very many of them exist.
> 
> btw you use a tube screamer to slam a preamp tube/2. half of one tube. It's not slamming more then that because the gain pot is right after that stage in 99 percent of amps.
> 
> if you're not depending on the amp to do the entirety of your volume production there is absolutely no reason to use only what's necessary for the mic to pick up.
> 
> you only need headroom if you need your amp to be loud. if you don't need your amp to be loud then you don't need all that much headroom.



There are many situations in which an amp is not mic'd up, and they are also cranked up for studio useage. Acting as if cutting an amp from 100 to 50 watts is some sort of life changer is just silly.


----------



## diagrammatiks

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> There are many situations in which an amp is not mic'd up, and they are also cranked up for studio useage. Acting as if cutting an amp from 100 to 50 watts is some sort of life changer is just silly.



jeez it's like you should tailor your gear to your actual needs instead of shouting one size fits all platitudes all day.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Science_Penguin said:


> Has he been making noise about moving over to Fender? J and Inoran, I can understand, but I always figured Sugizo had the Vai deal going and would stick with the company willing to both cater to his eccentric tastes and hook him up whenever he needs a Strat fix.



Sugizo recently got a few custom Fenders that are largely identical to his recent 3 P90 Navigatior sigs (one sunburst and one exact relic black). And he's not afraid to use them live either.

Though I guess I am just speculating. There's just a strong implication since yes, he has a similar arrangement to Vai, where he can use whatever he wants like the Rickenbacker 12 string, an old Roland G808 among others. Having his band mates jump ship is something Fender Japan would certainly be looking at.


Sidebar: I noticed Aoi of The Gazette is no longer on the ESP site. Tried to dig some info but aside from 1 site with an unceremonious press release, no dice on what he'll be using next. Uruha and Reita are still on board though.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

The red Akira random star is not an abomination.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Sugizo recently got a few custom Fenders that are largely identical to his recent 3 P90 Navigatior sigs (one sunburst and one exact relic black). And he's not afraid to use them live either.
> 
> Though I guess I am just speculating. There's just a strong implication since yes, he has a similar arrangement to Vai, where he can use whatever he wants like the Rickenbacker 12 string, an old Roland G808 among others. Having his band mates jump ship is something Fender Japan would certainly be looking at.
> 
> 
> Sidebar: I noticed Aoi of The Gazette is no longer on the ESP site. Tried to dig some info but aside from 1 site with an unceremonious press release, no dice on what he'll be using next. Uruha and Reita are still on board though.



Maybe they could set him up with Jackson if he wants to keep the non-traditional shapes and still stay within the FMIC family... I wonder if he could class up their weird Les Paul copy.

Aoi might also be jumping ship to Fender. Wasn't his last new model a Mustang copy?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> Is that why all the crusty punk bands around here don't even bring their own cymbals?


Lmao. I'm surprised they bring anything at all


----------



## Seabeast2000

Matt08642 said:


> I still can't get over how ugly this color is to me. The PIA in general doesn't sit right in my eyes though



I think a lot of new designs have intrinsic Stockholm Syndrome effects.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

diagrammatiks said:


> jeez it's like you should tailor your gear to your actual needs instead of shouting one size fits all platitudes all day.



Shhhh. Buy a full sized amp. Thanks and god bless


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Science_Penguin said:


> Aoi might also be jumping ship to Fender. Wasn't his last new model a Mustang copy?



Mustang esque shape but it largely aping Nuno's N4s, kinda like how he was aping Sugizo's older Eclipse at one point. 

I guess we'll find out what Aoi will be using when Gazette releases something new.


----------



## prlgmnr

Don't mind carrying an amp? Congratulations, many 100 watt heads are available.

Don't want to carry an amp? You're in luck, take an AMT pedal and go straight to the desk!

Options abound regardless of your max carry capacity.

Excessively bothered about what other people do or don't want to carry? Fuck off.


----------



## Necky379

“metal” amps don’t sound better with the power amp melting down. Maybe pushed a little, that happens around 3 numerically on my favorite amp. I may be repeating myself but it’s come up in the past few posts, my unpopular opinion is 4-10 is not automatically better than 3.5. Speakers too, they like it a little rough.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

prlgmnr said:


> Don't mind carrying an amp? Congratulations, many 100 watt heads are available.
> 
> Don't want to carry an amp? You're in luck, take an AMT pedal and go straight to the desk!
> 
> Options abound regardless of your max carry capacity.
> 
> Excessively bothered about what other people do or don't want to carry? Fuck off.


 That's.....not really an unpopular opinion


----------



## Matt08642

Seabeast2000 said:


> I think a lot of new designs have intrinsic Stockholm Syndrome effects.



Meh, I like tons of new and different designs, the PIA just seems like a more ornate JEM with a less useful cutout and visually distracting pickup covers


----------



## c7spheres

WarMachine said:


> Y'know, something that has never made any sense to me is; people say they can't _*feel *_air pushing behind them when using a monitor + preamp to FOH like they did with the cab behind them. But i've not seen anyone live yet (at least where i am or remotely close) that uses the monitor + preamp to FOH put the monitor behind them...doesn't that _*solve *_the problem of pushing air? Just put the damn monitor behind you vs in front of you? Never had that as an issue, and that's with a loud drummer..



- TLDR; BIG RIG'S = BIG SMILES   ,... well.. they do and they don't. It's all situational. 

Pushing air is both literal and figurative. 
-
- Needing a bunch of speakers and loud amps goes back to the days when bands actually needed their own gear to put on a show and couldn't rely on a club or venues PA system to get them by. Most venues nowadays have adequate PA's to do the job, but some bars and clubs still exist where you'd probably want to bring your larger setup. Additionally most club's PA's and sound guys suck unless they really care. The best results are by renting a "real" PA and having a sound guy you trust operate it. 
- The paradox is that if you need to bring all that big rig stuff to a venue that doesn't have the nice PA then, unless its a "special" gig, it's probably not worth your time to play it and also high risk to your gear getting damaged or stolen anyways. 
- Another thing is that if you bring all that stuff to a gig that has a "proper" PA system then the first thing they'll do is tell you to turn it down because you can't have the stage volume that loud, which in turn screws up your entire tones' sound and feel! The stage monitors can only go so loud before feedback too. In ear monitors and a wedge for that feeling gratification is probably the way to go if you want the best of sound and feel in live on-stage situations. 

- All those cab's and amps use to be needed to move air because surface area is more important after a certain point than wattage because you just need coverage for the audience and to fill gaps and stuff, but this hasn't been needed for any large acts for a long time. Lot's of those wall's of 4x12's are empty cab's, but not always. 

- I think the reality check a lot of people have is that playing a gig is for the audience and usually to the detriment of the bands personal gratification and ideal conditions for playing and how they prefer it to sound, whereas in the jam spot you can have exactly what you want. Even studios sound crappy compared to the sacred jam spot. Nothing beats the jam spot! : ) Seriously though, studios and live gigs are a differrnt application.

- A couple situations where you may actually need (want/prefer) a full stack or larger is in a rock or metal band situation where high volume and hard hitting drumming is happening, and maximum volume and feel is wanted using distorted guitars while chuggin.
- Basically this means in the bands personal jam spot or in the studio. This is where you can actually benefit with real gear in all it's glory. This is the best place to play a guitar and indulge, imo.
- In any other genre you could get away with a combo amp and you'll be fine. Even in rock and metal you'll be fine with a combo amp, but in the case of the latter you'd want a drum shield, and a good PA or monitors. Even in-ear monitors and electric drums can go a long way, but that kind of negates the point of loud and raw unless that's the style.
- With modern setups (both live and in the studio) and with modern venues and old world venues existing, a flexible rig is important if one is playing out live. 
- The best way to have the best of all worlds is through the use of traditional amps with dummy loads or via modellers. Having a "one size fits all" rig is a challenge. I don't play out so I have a large rack system and four 2x12's, but if I were to play live I would buy a smaller rack case and bring only the components the gig required and also only bring probably one or two 2x12's at the very most. If I were playing a dive bar with no PA I'd borrow or rent a rig and insure it. Maybe one day I'll finally break down and buy a modeller. 
-


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Shhhh. Buy a full sized amp. Thanks and god bless


I barely even use an amp anymore. Full sized amps are for dinosaurs.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I barely even use an amp anymore. Full sized amps are for dinosaurs.


And dinosaurs are still awesome to this day..


That being said....bitch I play through VSTs  I ain't even got no dayum amp right now.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Nah, they're all dead and the boomers are dying, taking rock along with it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Nah, they're all dead and the boomers are dying, taking rock along with it.


Oh you kids and your mediocrity


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Nah, they're all dead and the boomers are dying, taking rock along with it.



And electronic musicians such as myself will be there to harvest the organs. 

...Damn, I should've saved those Borg jokes...


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Matt08642 said:


> Meh, I like tons of new and different designs, the PIA just seems like a more ornate JEM with a less useful cutout and visually distracting pickup covers



Honestly, I thought the blue floral JEM was the only design Steve Vai had that was anything great. I have no idea who would even buy a PIA. It doesn't even look like something to be played imo.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> And electronic musicians such as myself will be there to harvest the organs.
> 
> ...Damn, I should've saved those Borg jokes...


Pretty much.

We are the keepers of the beeps and boops. Assimilate or die


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Whenever stage handlers or band friends help me set up, it always cracks me up when they bend down and try to lift my JP2C and be surprised that it weighs just as heavy as a full 100w head. Nah man, that is no lunchbox head. lol

100 watt amps with small headshells are the best. Prevents you from hitting the amp on that small wall corner or tight alleyways going in the back entrance. Easier to hide from would be thieves too.


----------



## gunch

I think there’s a very steep level of diminishing returns when it comes to pickups outside of what type you’re going with (strat/tele singles, humbuckers, p90s) 

Like changes from one “good” pickup to another aren’t going to be earth shattering compared to like upgrading poopy oem pickups


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

gunch said:


> I think there’s a very steep level of diminishing returns when it comes to pickups outside of what type you’re going with (strat/tele singles, humbuckers, p90s)
> 
> Like changes from one “good” pickup to another aren’t going to be earth shattering compared to like upgrading poopy oem pickups


Probably because they are the first thing in the signal chain. Speakers make a bigger difference. That said, changing pickups to fit the guitar, and even choosing the right pick, still matters in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## gunch

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Probably because they are the first thing in the signal chain. Speakers make a bigger difference. That said, changing pickups to fit the guitar, and even choosing the right pick, still matters in the grand scheme of things.



That's what I was getting at, speakers/IRs are a bigger chunk of the signal chain than most tone whores realize


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh you kids and your mediocrity


----------



## Science_Penguin

gunch said:


> I think there’s a very steep level of diminishing returns when it comes to pickups outside of what type you’re going with (strat/tele singles, humbuckers, p90s)
> 
> Like changes from one “good” pickup to another aren’t going to be earth shattering compared to like upgrading poopy oem pickups



Things I learned in my early 20's...

"I haven't been digging the sound of the D-Activator in my bridge that much lately, so I'm gonna throw caution to the wind and try something completely different!" (buys an Evolution) "Now THIS one will be the game changer!"


----------



## loganflynn294

Meant to post this like 20+ pages ago, but, life got in the way. So, I'm sure most of this was already mentioned, but here goes:

Headless guitars and fanned fretted guitars are hideous. I get why they exist, understand the logic, just can't stand how they look.

Lunchbox amps with small tubes (EL84, etc) are stupid. If I only play at home and didn't "want" a 100w head, I would rather buy a modeler or some computer plugin stuff. To spend all that $ on a tiny amp that's still going to be loud af but not have enough balls to keep up with a band playing the stuff I play is not something I would be ok with.

Pickup rings look stupid on most guitars. I think they look ok on Gibson's, PRS', stuff like that, but not on superstrat style guitars. Always wanted a Jackson SL2H, only thing holding me back is cheap looking pickup rings. Just mount them to the body! 

100W tube heads that have a good master volume are 10000x better than little lunchbox amps. I've had a bunch of Bogner's and Mesa's that sound awesome at late night TV volumes (through a 4x12!) and then totally slay during band practice. The people that say lunchbox amps are loud enough to keep up with a band might not be going for the same sound I am though. Brutal chugs is where it's at, and a couple of little EL84 "night-lights" are not going to give me the low end headroom I want. 

Djent is stupid. I hate that nasally guitar tone and I wish it would die. 

A lot of people pay way too much attention to specs when buying a guitar. I see a ton of posts about people asking for new guitar recommendations and then they list a million different super specific specs that they must have like "16.34568" fretboard radius, anything else and I won't consider it". Like, go play some fucking guitars and buy one you like. Stop worrying about buying something with the same specs as your "hero", cause you might not even like it.

Relic'd guitars are awesome. I don't play guitar for a living or tour around the world so my stuff will take forever to get that "broken in" feel and look. So, I'm into building partscasters out of relic'd parts. I think they look cool as hell and they feel amazing. Could I ever afford a 1962 Strat? Not a chance. So why not build one and make it look and feel like a guitar that's been played everyday for 60 years.


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Having gear itself is unnecessary unless it's paying your bills.
> 
> It's a damn amp head...you aren't carrying an injured ally on your shoulders 30 miles across enemy lines. Just carry the goddamn thing.


No argument here dude. I've never had any problems lugging around my 4x12 and 5150. Hell i did that for years on end. Once i was able to get the tones of that full sized rig in a preamp, it was like lightning in a bottle. I guess the best part for me is, when you take out small rigs like say a POD Go, FM8, Helix, any ground based etc rig out its great when people are looking for a huge rig. Then you point down at the floor and they give you this face 
Makes it all worth it


----------



## Carl Kolchak

loganflynn294 said:


> Djent is stupid. I hate that nasally guitar tone and I wish it would die.



You sir, are the prophet of the coming age.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Even though Jackson has the cooler headstock, I always preferred the ESP Mirage. 

For some reason, Soloists always looked cramped. Something about the pickups and the body looking weird.






Vs the ESP






It just seems to flow better.


----------



## TedEH

Is it possible that the djent/nasally tone of today is just a response to yesterdays "I want to sound like Metallica" scooped sound?


----------



## Matt08642

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Even though Jackson has the cooler headstock, I always preferred the ESP Mirage.
> 
> For some reason, Soloists always looked cramped. Something about the pickups and the body looking weird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vs the ESP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just seems to flow better.



It's the stupid control layout. Vol sw Tone is weird, especially if your trem bar is right over the pickup selector.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TedEH said:


> Is it possible that the djent/nasally tone of today is just a response to yesterdays "I want to sound like Metallica" scooped sound?



Nah everyone just wanted to copy Misha and his demos. 



Matt08642 said:


> It's the stupid control layout. Vol sw Tone is weird, especially if your trem bar is right over the pickup selector.



Didn't even pay attention to the control layout.  Mostly how the pickups look so cramped. Like the bridge is closer to the neck.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TedEH said:


> Is it possible that the djent/nasally tone of today is just a response to yesterdays "I want to sound like Metallica" scooped sound?


Overcompensation, perhaps. It's a bad attempt Fear-shugganah Factory tone.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

loganflynn294 said:


> Meant to post this like 20+ pages ago, but, life got in the way. So, I'm sure most of this was already mentioned, but here goes:



Everything you said is correct you beautiful god among insects. 


WarMachine said:


> No argument here dude. I've never had any problems lugging around my 4x12 and 5150. Hell i did that for years on end. Once i was able to get the tones of that full sized rig in a preamp, it was like lightning in a bottle. I guess the best part for me is, when you take out small rigs like say a POD Go, FM8, Helix, any ground based etc rig out its great when people are looking for a huge rig. Then you point down at the floor and they give you this face
> Makes it all worth it


Gig trolling is love. Gig trolling is life.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>



This is the clear winner just because I lust for satin black guitars.


HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Nah everyone just wanted to copy Misha and his demos.


Oh dear god I never wanna hear that name again. Periphery is such a shitty band and this forum used to be SOOOOO fucking bad on the Misha hype. I have never seen so many supposedly hetero men dickride so hard for another guy in all my life. There was a time SSO used to be insufferable and the butt of many jokes on other forums over this.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Fuck Misha, his watches, cars, and stupid band. Dude has turned into a troll, and at least one of the mods (won't name) is kind of sick of it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Fuck Misha, his watches, cars, and stupid band. Dude has turned into a troll, and at least one of the mods (won't name) is kind of sick of it.


I don't watch anything Misha does because SSO turned me off of him and the band....so I don't know anything about all that. What'd he do?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

He had been shit posting around the time of a member doing something, causing some tour issues, and then would later delete the posts. One of the mods was (in a private message) telling me how he was fed up with it. I had meant to respond to him in a post about the Dines' sig guitar, which I will send you via PM (the post I was going to make, but withheld).


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I'm not big into the edgy proto-millenial meme-tarist gear-hock cavalcade either, but I think the amount of hate sent thier way is pretty stupid. There is some valid grievance, but it's buried in personal shit slinging that just comes off as being bitter about not being as successful, even if that wasn't the intention.


----------



## Vyn

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He had been shit posting around the time of a member doing something, causing some tour issues, and then would later delete the posts. One of the mods was (in a private message) telling me how he was fed up with it. I had meant to respond to him in a post about the Dines' sig guitar, which I will send you via PM (the post I was going to make, but withheld).



Not wanting to go into the whole story again, however Misha made a massive tool of himself around that time. All he had to do was release a statement along the lines of "I'm not going to discuss this" and leave it at that, but nope...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Hey, lets give it a rest on the personal hate. Again, I'm not buddies with the dude either, but it's in pretty poor taste to just turn this into a "fuck that guy" thread. 

Just keep posting your shitty takes about gear you have no knowledge of, y'all. It's more fun that way.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Posted before I saw Max's post. Fine.


----------



## Vyn

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hey, lets give it a rest on the personal hate. Again, I'm not buddies with the dude either, but it's in pretty poor taste to just turn this into a "fuck that guy" thread.
> 
> Just keep posting your shitty takes about gear you have no knowledge of, y'all. It's more fun that way.



Fair shout, sorry man!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Max is right. I'd rather discuss gear.

Speaking of which, 6L6 tubes are lame and the "basic bitch" of the tube world


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Max is right. I'd rather discuss gear.
> 
> Speaking of which, 6L6 tubes are lame and the "basic bitch" of the tube world



Hol’ up. Let me just take out my earrings. Time to fucking go. Can’t be saying that stuff in this neighborhood.


----------



## StevenC

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Max is right. I'd rather discuss gear.
> 
> Speaking of which, 6L6 tubes are lame and the "basic bitch" of the tube world


Unless you grew up in the UK and have massive ear fatigue from EL34s.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Max is right. I'd rather discuss gear.
> 
> Speaking of which, 6L6 tubes are lame and the "basic bitch" of the tube world


EL34 is too, then.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Y'ALL BITCHES WANTED UNPOPULAR HOT TAKES!? I'M FINNA GIVE YOU SOME.

Like I said...6L6s is garbo. EL34s are superior, however still in the basic league.

KT77s, 6550s, KT88s, KT90s, 6CA7s and E34Ls are the only truth


----------



## Vyn

People who whinge about the high-end frequencies of solid-state amps not sounding right either low-pass the shit out of those frequencies during mixing or have blown their hearing and can't hear up there anyway. There's no reason to use Valves over solid-state these days except for dick waving.

Now, if neg-rep was still a thing I'd be about to get obliterated


----------



## Science_Penguin

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just keep posting your shitty takes about gear you have no knowledge of, y'all. It's more fun that way.



Got it, chief.

There is no need for any other basses in the world besides those produced by Fender, and whatever bassist you're thinking of right now to try and counter this point would sound better with a Jazz.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Got it, chief.
> 
> There is no need for any other basses in the world besides those produced by Fender, and whatever bassist you're thinking of right now to try and counter this point would sound better with a Jazz.


 P and J style combos are where it's at. All of my bass tones are modeled after that idea.

Except for Rickenbackers..those are glorious


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Oh..and Krank amps are awesome despite all the crap associated with the brand. Those rev1+ amps were lovely


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> Got it, chief.
> 
> There is no need for any other basses in the world besides those produced by Fender, and whatever bassist you're thinking of right now to try and counter this point would sound better with a Jazz.


Yeah... I wouldn't say that too loud around Lemmy's ghost. He might smash a bottle of whiskey over your head.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah... I wouldn't say that too loud around Lemmy's ghost. He might smash a bottle of whiskey over your head.



Bring it, Kilmister!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Bring it, Kilmister!


You ain't bout that life. Don't make Lemmy fuck you up in here


----------



## Protestheriphery

loganflynn294 said:


> 100W tube heads that have a good master volume are 10000x better than little lunchbox amps. I've had a bunch of Bogner's and Mesa's that sound awesome at late night TV volumes (through a 4x12!) and then totally slay during band practice. The people that say lunchbox amps are loud enough to keep up with a band might not be going for the same sound I am though. Brutal chugs is where it's at, and a couple of little EL84 "night-lights" are not going to give me the low end headroom I want.
> 
> Djent is stupid. I hate that nasally guitar tone and I wish it would die.


Agreed. Jamming a Mesa Mini Recto through a 212 cab at home was a struggle. Very demotivational. On the other hand, a full size Marshall JVM or EVH head through the same cab/same low volume is thoroughly satisfying. Even without a boost pedal.

+1 in regards to Djent. It seems redundant to flex some $6000 "custom guitar" with bareknuckles, when its going through a modeler with buttloads of processing, but to each their own.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

80s chorus drenched metal rhythm guitar sounds lovely


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 80s chorus drenched metal rhythm guitar sounds lovely


Just in the same way that the 70s had phase, the 80s had chorus.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 80s chorus drenched metal rhythm guitar sounds lovely


Alexi drunkenly agrees.


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 80s chorus drenched metal rhythm guitar sounds lovely



Chorus in general is a win. I will never get tired of it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I always sneak some chorus into my metal rhythms. It just sounds so damn good and retro. I don't care if it's "cheesy" by today's standards. With some old school big hall reverb style drums it sounds massive


----------



## USMarine75

Speaking of FX...

Why did the H9 fall out of favor?

I bought an H9 Max a couple years ago but forgot all about it... now I’m discovering just how great it is.

Chorus, harmonic trem, delays with vibrato tails, arpeggiations, etc. Only complaint is not being able to run multiple algorithms at same time - or am I missing something? Now I understand why I saw people with two on their board at same time.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I always sneak some chorus into my metal rhythms. It just sounds so damn good and retro. I don't care if it's "cheesy" by today's standards. With some old school big hall reverb style drums it sounds massive


How to do you incorporate the chorus? Stereo setup? Into the front/before distortion, or in the effects loop/after distortion?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> How to do you incorporate the chorus? Stereo setup? Into the front/before distortion, or in the effects loop/after distortion?


"Effects loop" pretty much. When recording it's last in the signal chain 

Tubescreamer
Amp
Cab
EQ
Chorus

If I'm using reverb it goes dead last


----------



## StevenC

USMarine75 said:


> Speaking of FX...
> 
> Why did the H9 fall out of favor?
> 
> I bought an H9 Max a couple years ago but forgot all about it... now I’m discovering just how great it is.
> 
> Chorus, harmonic trem, delays with vibrato tails, arpeggiations, etc. Only complaint is not being able to run multiple algorithms at same time - or am I missing something? Now I understand why I saw people with two on their board at same time.
> 
> View attachment 83501


Everybody got hot for Strymon and buying all of their big units instead of a couple of H9s.

Unpopular opinion: Strymon pedals are uninspiring to play and sound worse compared to other equivalent pedals from Eventide and Empress. Every Strymon I've played sounds worse than a H3000.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

StevenC said:


> Everybody got hot for Strymon and buying all of their big units instead of a couple of H9s.
> 
> Unpopular opinion: Strymon pedals are uninspiring to play and sound worse compared to other equivalent pedals from Eventide and Empress. Every Strymon I've played sounds worse than a H3000.



The large Strymon units are just Eventide Factors for the masses in every sense of the word.  

Taking it further, you don't need that much delay and reverb even if you are a Sunday Praise & Worship guitarist, which is essentially a keyboardist in denial. 

/Unpopular Opinions

In all seriousness, Strymon menu interfaces are more easier to navigate over the Eventide Factors. I own all 3 main Strymons and the Volante, and 3 Eventide Factors (sans Space), and love them all and swap around from time to time. Eventide definitely has the edge on the tone factor (pardon the pun), and Strymon has yet to make an awesome harmonizer like the Pitchfactor.


----------



## A-Branger

Science_Penguin said:


> Got it, chief.
> 
> There is no need for any other basses in the world besides those produced by Fender, and whatever bassist you're thinking of right now to try and counter this point would sound better with a Jazz.



they might sound great, but they are the worse design for a bass. Too big


also: 6 string basses are way overrated by guitar players. 90% of 6 string absses I see are guitar players who think they need one to do sick sweeps on their bass like they do on their guitar or something. No, you do not need a 6 string bass, chances are you can get away with a 3 string. 6 string basses are overated and they shouldnt be a thing


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 80s chorus drenched metal rhythm guitar sounds lovely


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

A-Branger said:


> they might sound great, but they are the worse design for a bass. Too big
> 
> 
> also: 6 string basses are way overrated by guitar players. 90% of 6 string absses I see are guitar players who think they need one to do sick sweeps on their bass like they do on their guitar or something. No, you do not need a 6 string bass, chances are you can get away with a 3 string. 6 string basses are overated and they shouldnt be a thing


----------



## Emperoff

loganflynn294 said:


> Meant to post this like 20+ pages ago, but, life got in the way. So, I'm sure most of this was already mentioned, but here goes:
> 
> Headless guitars and fanned fretted guitars are hideous. I get why they exist, understand the logic, just can't stand how they look.
> 
> Lunchbox amps with small tubes (EL84, etc) are stupid. If I only play at home and didn't "want" a 100w head, I would rather buy a modeler or some computer plugin stuff. To spend all that $ on a tiny amp that's still going to be loud af but not have enough balls to keep up with a band playing the stuff I play is not something I would be ok with.
> 
> Pickup rings look stupid on most guitars. I think they look ok on Gibson's, PRS', stuff like that, but not on superstrat style guitars. Always wanted a Jackson SL2H, only thing holding me back is cheap looking pickup rings. Just mount them to the body!
> 
> 100W tube heads that have a good master volume are 10000x better than little lunchbox amps. I've had a bunch of Bogner's and Mesa's that sound awesome at late night TV volumes (through a 4x12!) and then totally slay during band practice. The people that say lunchbox amps are loud enough to keep up with a band might not be going for the same sound I am though. Brutal chugs is where it's at, and a couple of little EL84 "night-lights" are not going to give me the low end headroom I want.
> 
> Djent is stupid. I hate that nasally guitar tone and I wish it would die.
> 
> A lot of people pay way too much attention to specs when buying a guitar. I see a ton of posts about people asking for new guitar recommendations and then they list a million different super specific specs that they must have like "16.34568" fretboard radius, anything else and I won't consider it". Like, go play some fucking guitars and buy one you like. Stop worrying about buying something with the same specs as your "hero", cause you might not even like it.
> 
> Relic'd guitars are awesome. I don't play guitar for a living or tour around the world so my stuff will take forever to get that "broken in" feel and look. So, I'm into building partscasters out of relic'd parts. I think they look cool as hell and they feel amazing. Could I ever afford a 1962 Strat? Not a chance. So why not build one and make it look and feel like a guitar that's been played everyday for 60 years.



Someone buy this guy a beer!


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> Is it possible that the djent/nasally tone of today is just a response to yesterdays "I want to sound like Metallica" scooped sound?


 I think it was definitely a response to engineers (pro and bedroom) realizing that to get the scooped guitars to actually sit in a mix was huge pain the ass without murdering every other sound.


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 80s chorus drenched metal rhythm guitar sounds lovely


No More Tears guitar tone. One and done.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

StevenC said:


> Everybody got hot for Strymon and buying all of their big units instead of a couple of H9s.
> 
> Unpopular opinion: Strymon pedals are uninspiring to play and sound worse compared to other equivalent pedals from Eventide and Empress. Every Strymon I've played sounds worse than a H3000.



Main reason I hate Strymons is because they're fucking power hogs and need like half a fucking amp to run most of them.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Idk if this is even an opinion, but more of an observation 

But a lot of the times if I see a YouTube channel with "studio" in the name, there's a high chance they're not good actually good at engineering or mixing.


----------



## Matt08642

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh..and Krank amps are awesome despite all the crap associated with the brand. Those rev1+ amps were lovely



Even the Krankenstein was pretty brutal, but I remember everyone at the time saying how it sounded like dog shit.



WarMachine said:


> No More Tears guitar tone. One and done.



the best tone Zakk ever had IMO


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Main reason I hate Strymons is because they're fucking power hogs and need like half a fucking amp to run most of them.


That is digital pedals for ya. My Mooer Ocean Machine has its own OneSpot.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Even though Jackson has the cooler headstock, I always preferred the ESP Mirage.
> 
> For some reason, Soloists always looked cramped. Something about the pickups and the body looking weird.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Vs the ESP
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It just seems to flow better.



Hmmm the Mirage has a slimmer and a tad longer lower horn but a fatter upper horn. But other than that, I see not much difference. Maybe it looks cramped and not as tidy because the controls are all bunched together and there is A LOT of Sharkfins. 

And also, I have THAT same model Jackson. Where did you get that picture? I know they made a NAMM series for this run of 10 guitars each for the SL, WR and RR shapes If I am seeing that serial right, that could be my guitar. lol


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MASS DEFECT said:


> Hmmm the Mirage has a slimmer and a tad longer lower horn but a fatter upper horn. But other than that, I see not much difference. Maybe it looks cramped and not as tidy because the controls are all bunched together and there is A LOT of Sharkfins.
> 
> And also, I have THAT same model Jackson. Where did you get that picture? I know they made a NAMM series for this run of 10 guitars each for the SL, WR and RR shapes If I am seeing that serial right, that could be my guitar. lol



One of the first results that came up searching"Jackson soloist"

Also like I said earlier; it's the pickup and bridge placement. The bridge looks closer to the fret board and the pickups look more cramped together.


----------



## cGoEcYk

A-Branger said:


> No, you do not need a 6 string bass, chances are you can get away with a 3 string. 6 string basses are overated and they shouldnt be a thing


I couldnt live without a 5 (I like to play in B and tap a lot) but agree few who use 6 seem to rock them fully or those who get them are more likely to be 3-string players. Colin Marston (Dysrhythmia) is a great 6 player.


----------



## Adieu

3? Come on, you know y'all play 2 at most


----------



## GunpointMetal

cGoEcYk said:


> I couldnt live without a 5 (I like to play in B and tap a lot) but agree few who use 6 seem to rock them fully or those who get them are more likely to be 3-string players. Colin Marston (Dysrhythmia) is a great 6 player.


Three to play on and three for the occasional quick octave snap? If I played bass I could definitely get by with three.


----------



## cGoEcYk

Adieu said:


> 3? Come on, you know y'all play 2 at most


I try to play just one as much as possible, ideally the same note throughout.


----------



## GunpointMetal

cGoEcYk said:


> I try to play just one as much as possible, ideally the same note throughout.


 This is the entire reason our current bassist in my caveman deathcore band joined. He can get pretty shitfaced and still perform well because theoretically he'd never HAVE to play anything other than his open A string close to in time.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

cGoEcYk said:


> I try to play just one as much as possible, ideally the same note throughout.


The open low B string.


----------



## potatohead33

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Instead of posting it in the Solar thread since there's currently people talking about, I'm gonna post it here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like how the pointy headstock looks on this.



Interesting. I am a single cut guy and haven't bought a Solar simply because it doesn't have a 3+3 headstock. I do like reverse inline on super strats though. Maybe I'm wierd.


----------



## Shask

cGoEcYk said:


> I couldnt live without a 5 (I like to play in B and tap a lot) but agree few who use 6 seem to rock them fully or those who get them are more likely to be 3-string players. Colin Marston (Dysrhythmia) is a great 6 player.


I do my hack renditions of Pork Soda from time to time with my Fretless 6, lol.


----------



## WarMachine

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The open low B string.


Works great when paired with guitars in standard E AND drop B tunings


----------



## SexHaver420

If you've never played at least a full stack and a 100+ watt tube amp on 10 no one should care about your opinions on amps. 

If you play some tiny lunchbox head/high gain modern amp that gets all of its gain from the preamp you have no idea what an amp for adults is like.

A guitar amp and a fuzz pedal are just as much of an instrument as the guitar and you need to learn how to play and control them.

Also remember to use more mids and less gain than you normally would in a live setting. 

Earplugs are also garbage and the only reason to wear them is because of cymbals.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Science_Penguin said:


> There is no need for any other basses in the world besides those produced by Fender, and whatever bassist you're thinking of right now to try and counter this point would sound better with a Jazz.



I get this from a producer's standpoint. P Basses are easy to EQ and don't take any unnecessary sonic space, which explains why they're considered an essential tool in every studio. It's also one of the reasons I still want a no nonsense Fender P just to keep my co producer happy.  Also J's switch to Fender really made me want one more.


----------



## Backsnack

I caught a bit of a video from this year's NAMM where some guy had a vintage Klon on his pedalboard he was carrying around and was saying that people were offering him 4 digit prices to take it off his hands at the show. So I ended up down a YouTube rabbit hole about the Klon Centaur because of its aura of mystery and rarity.

After watching a lot of videos and being awestruck that a vintage Klons sell for $2000-3000, I just don't understand the appeal whatsoever. It has to be one of the most boring overdrive sounds ever. It's not that it's a BAD sounding overdrive, but I don't understand the popularity or the seemingly mass appeal with dudes who play blues or classic rock, etc. Hell, a Boss Blues Driver or SD-1l sounds better than that. Or if you want to go premium, anything from the Origin RevivalDrive Line sound FAR better, have way more sounds and features, and cost a fraction in comparison.

Or maybe I just don't understand the vintage pedal market and I'm just not the target audience.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Get a clone, and tell Klon to go fuck themselves. (I think Klon is actually the brand name, but since they only did the one pedal, people call them "klons")


----------



## PrestoDone

ENGL Powerball 2 gets lost in the mix....


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Get a clone, and tell Klon to go fuck themselves. (I think Klon is actually the brand name, but since they only did the one pedal, people call them "klons")



The guy behind Klon, Bill Finnegan, actually hates all the hype too. It's lead to a lot of drama for him over the years, especially from halfwits who think he's the cause of all this, not pedal collectors playing the dick measuring game.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I get this from a producer's standpoint. P Basses are easy to EQ and don't take any unnecessary sonic space, which explains why they're considered an essential tool in every studio. It's also one of the reasons I still want a no nonsense Fender P just to keep my co producer happy.  Also J's switch to Fender really made me want one more.



I'm partial to Jazz bass for fingerstyle and slap, but I love the way a P bass sounds with a pick (so yeah, also looking forward to new Luna Sea material)


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> The guy behind Klon, Bill Finnegan, actually hates all the hype too. It's lead to a lot of drama for him over the years, especially from halfwits who think he's the cause of all this, not pedal collectors playing the dick measuring game.
> 
> View attachment 83530


Horse shit. If he hated it so much, he wouldn't offer new Klon Centaurs for the same price as the scalpers.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Also: He'd sell more at a more reasonable price, likely being able to give more money to charity, which if memory serves, is why he was selling new Centaurs. Doing so would also put a stop to the scalpers, or at the very least, make them come back to low earth orbit.


----------



## Backsnack

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Get a clone, and tell Klon to go fuck themselves. (I think Klon is actually the brand name, but since they only did the one pedal, people call them "klons")


I realize "klones" exist out there by many companies at various price points. Even at the reduced price of a Klone vs the originals, I'd rather buy something else because I just think they sound boring. Overall I prefer amp-voiced-drive or preamp type pedals over the clipping diodes kind of overdrive.



MaxOfMetal said:


> The guy behind Klon, Bill Finnegan, actually hates all the hype too. It's lead to a lot of drama for him over the years, especially from halfwits who think he's the cause of all this, not pedal collectors playing the dick measuring game.
> 
> View attachment 83530


I don't usually buy the reluctance of success and notoriety thing, I'm sure he's doing quite well financially these days.

Maybe that's what the vintage pedal thing is all about? Just a dick measuring contest fueled by money? I do, however, realize there are some pro players that swear by certain vintage pedals because they have "that thing" they want. The guitarist for Radiohead, for example, still uses the old giant Memory Man pedal that runs on 18v power. He calls it "the god pedal."


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Horse shit. If he hated it so much, he wouldn't offer new Klon Centaurs for the same price as the scalpers.



You can get a new KTR for like $250...if you can find it in stock. 

Not sure why he has to give them away.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> You can get a new KTR for like $250...if you can find it in stock.
> 
> Not sure why he has to give them away.


$400 is giving them away for a guy claiming that it "wasn't of his making"?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Backsnack said:


> I don't usually buy the reluctance of success and notoriety thing, I'm sure he's doing quite well financially these days.



I don't recall him ever saying he hated the success, just the drama. For awhile folks were practically stalking him.



Spaced Out Ace said:


> $400 is giving them away for a guy claiming that it "wasn't of his making"?



If folks are going to pay it, why not? 

And they start at ~$250.


----------



## Backsnack

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't recall him ever saying he hated the success, just the drama. For awhile folks were practically stalking him.


Ok that's definitely where things get weird and ridiculous for someone who's just trying to run a business, I'll give him that.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't recall him ever saying he hated the success, just the drama. For awhile folks were practically stalking him.
> 
> 
> 
> If folks are going to pay it, why not?
> 
> And they start at ~$250.


I'm not talking about KTRs.


----------



## narad

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm not talking about KTRs.



What's the difference?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm not talking about KTRs.



It's practically the same thing, it's just made to be eaiser to mass produce and be more user friendly (smaller footprint, standard power, etc.).

The only folks really sweating the difference are the folks who really want to spend the money. 

There are tons of KTR vs Centaur debates and videos accross the internet, having played both right next to each other, the difference is negligible at best. Many agree. Some don't.

ESP makes LTD EC1000s as more affordable Eclipses. Klon makes the KTR as a more affordable Centaur. 

Not sure why you have such a rage boner for these.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

PrestoDone said:


> ENGL Powerball 2 gets lost in the mix....



Yeah...seems to be the case.

Engls seem to sound great on their own but in a band context they don't come off as present and meaty.

Even when they sound good in a band mix, they seem to sound even better by themselves. I dunno.

As much as I hate Engls..the Engl amp sims always sound great. I recorded most of my last album with them. Funny how that goes


----------



## TedEH

I love how the best argument for big heavy amps is that they're MANLY and SERIOUS BUSINESS. 

Call it a whole unpopular opinion on it's own:
People's gear choices get way too tied up in ego. Your stuff is not who you are. It's just stuff.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> I love how the best argument for big heavy amps is that they're MANLY and SERIOUS BUSINESS.
> 
> Call it a whole unpopular opinion on it's own:
> People's gear choices get way too tied up in ego. Your stuff is not who you are. It's just stuff.



Ego is the entire point of any gear.

Why do you need a nice looking guitar? Why does it need to have various specs? Why anything? 

Surely we can pretend it's for tonal reasons but most of that is bullshit. We want nice things to fulfill the ego.

Even the tones we chase are down to what satisfies the ego.

Your stuf IS who you are...it tells a lot about you.

Mind you that's not a justification for the mini vs full size amp debate..I'm just saying in general


----------



## A-Branger

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> View attachment 83503



that string spacing!!


----------



## TedEH

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Your stuf IS who you are...it tells a lot about you.


It's the whole "you can tell a lot by a person's shoes" thing. I think it's BS. I can change my shoes in 10 seconds, but I'm not a different person for doing so.
I don't become a different person when I play a different guitar. A person isn't defined by the brands they like or can afford.

Your stuff is symbolic of your tastes and your means, but it isn't anything more than that.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

A-Branger said:


> that string spacing!!


It's Steve DiGiorgio. Dudes so fucking good that I think he can get away with anything.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> It's the whole "you can tell a lot by a person's shoes" thing. I think it's BS. I can change my shoes in 10 seconds, but I'm not a different person for doing so.
> I don't become a different person when I play a different guitar. A person isn't defined by the brands they like or can afford.
> 
> Your stuff is symbolic of your tastes and your means, but it isn't anything more than that.



You stuff can be symbolic of your tastes, attitudes, mindset, means, genre of music, etc. Your stuff says a lot about you. People's choices signal who they are.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

A-Branger said:


> that string spacing!!





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's Steve DiGiorgio. Dudes so fucking good that I think he can get away with anything.



To quote the man himself:



> Hey thanks a lot for all the cool compliments man! I really appreciate it. Man the idea for the 3-string came a while back on a tour I was filling in for Obituary and I realized that there are a lot of death metal songs that only need the basic low notes and to play a bass with only the 3 strings is a unique thing that is also so minimalistic. I'm working on making a true 3-stringer that has the spacing and size of the 5-stringer...what do you think? Anyone willing to play this model? LowEnders must be proud to just pump out the low notes and not have all those high notes to distract!! If you don't use 'em; lose em!



The 5 string spacing I guess is just his preference. Certainly doesn't slow him down. Last time I saw Testament he was using the Thor 3 String and predominantly and didn't struggle at all.


----------



## Metropolis

SexHaver420 said:


> If you've never played at least a full stack and a 100+ watt tube amp on 10 no one should care about your opinions on amps.
> 
> If you play some tiny lunchbox head/high gain modern amp that gets all of its gain from the preamp you have no idea what an amp for adults is like.
> 
> A guitar amp and a fuzz pedal are just as much of an instrument as the guitar and you need to learn how to play and control them.
> 
> Also remember to use more mids and less gain than you normally would in a live setting.
> 
> Earplugs are also garbage and the only reason to wear them is because of cymbals.



Most hi-gain amps sound like shit when master volume is cranked.

Only dad rockers and old school doom metallers play with fuzz pedals. Or even worse... bass players.

If you play in environment with over 85dB of noise extended amount of times you should be wearing earplugs, no matter is there a drummer or not.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ego is the entire point of any gear.
> 
> Why do you need a nice looking guitar? Why does it need to have various specs? Why anything?
> 
> Surely we can pretend it's for tonal reasons but most of that is bullshit. We want nice things to fulfill the ego.
> 
> Even the tones we chase are down to what satisfies the ego.
> 
> Your stuf IS who you are...it tells a lot about you.
> 
> Mind you that's not a justification for the mini vs full size amp debate..I'm just saying in general


No.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's practically the same thing, it's just made to be eaiser to mass produce and be more user friendly (smaller footprint, standard power, etc.).
> 
> The only folks really sweating the difference are the folks who really want to spend the money.
> 
> There are tons of KTR vs Centaur debates and videos accross the internet, having played both right next to each other, the difference is negligible at best. Many agree. Some don't.
> 
> ESP makes LTD EC1000s as more affordable Eclipses. Klon makes the KTR as a more affordable Centaur.
> 
> Not sure why you have such a rage boner for these.



You're missing that he has made "original" Klons and sold them for thousands periodically.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> You're missing that he has made "original" Klons and sold them for thousands periodically.



Good for him. 

He'd be stupid not to.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah...seems to be the case.
> 
> Engls seem to sound great on their own but in a band context they don't come off as present and meaty.
> 
> Even when they sound good in a band mix, they seem to sound even better by themselves. I dunno.
> 
> As much as I hate Engls..the Engl amp sims always sound great. I recorded most of my last album with them. Funny how that goes



Regarding ENGL amps, the "Ball" family is completely different from the "Savage" family (which were the first ENGLs and the ones that sound the best). You won't ever hear anyone saying a Savage doesn't cut through the mix.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MaxOfMetal said:


> The guy behind Klon, Bill Finnegan, actually hates all the hype too. It's lead to a lot of drama for him over the years, especially from halfwits who think he's the cause of all this, not pedal collectors playing the dick measuring game.
> 
> View attachment 83530



I recall him actually being a pretty cool dude. He used the success to his asvantsge to make new Klons, sell them online for the hyped up prices and gives the money to a friend that needs it.


Emperoff said:


> Regarding ENGL amps, the "Ball" family is completely different from the "Savage" family (which were the first ENGLs and the ones that sound the best). You won't ever hear anyone saying a Savage doesn't cut through the mix.



The Straight, Digital, and E520 actually came first in the early-mid '80s. I've seen a *ton* a love from those amps, even from modern Engl haters.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The Straight, Digital, and E520 actually came first in the early-mid '80s. I've seen a *ton* a love from those amps, even from modern Engl haters.



Yeah, I know. I almost bought an E520 recently (which happens to have 4 tubes instead of 2 like E530). I was referring to actual amps that went into production at least until recently (known models, so to speak).

I didn't want to mention amps that you can't barely even find to make a point.


----------



## TedEH

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Your stuff says a lot about you. People's choices signal who they are.


People's choices are not the same as people's stuff. I can get onboard with "people are (at least in part) their choices". I'm not onboard with "people are their stuff".

You said it yourself - those things are _symbolic_, but they are not you. They are potentially representative but not prescriptive.

Even if you ignore all that and just run with "you can learn a lot about a person by looking at their stuff", insinuating that people are lesser for not following a certain philosophy of gear choice is still BS. If you want to buy the heaviest amp you can find because it makes you feel manly? Go for it. Want to buy something because someone you like has stuck their name on it? Sure, why not. Want to get the most practical thing you can find, sound quality be damned? Do it up.


----------



## Matt08642

Lunchbox amps and modelers are perfectly fine, and telling people they're wrong to not want to carry 4x12s and 120w heads in to a small gig is goofy.

EDIT: I'm also not implying lunchbox amps and modelers are a perfect tonal oasis, don't misinterpret that lol


----------



## MFB

Science_Penguin said:


> Got it, chief.
> 
> There is no need for any other basses in the world besides those produced by Fender, and whatever bassist you're thinking of right now to try and counter this point would sound better with a Jazz.



As a new owner of a Fender Partscaster, I'm converted into wanting just Fenders at this point  There's a feel to my P-bass that my Ibanez doesn't have, and it makes me feel a little bad about it.


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> Yeah, I know. I almost bought an E520 recently (which happens to have 4 tubes instead of 2 like E530). I was referring to actual amps that went into production at least until recently (known models, so to speak).
> 
> I didn't want to mention amps that you can't barely even find to make a point.



I've been trying to find an Engl Retro Tube because it's one of my favorite VST amp sims.. but yeah, impossible. Can't dig one up anywhere. It practically doesn't exist in a physical form. 

It's too bad. It does the Engl 5150-but-super-smooth-and-German thing really well, with some bonus tasty mids. Or so I think, anyway. The VST does. I'll wonder about the real amp forever.


----------



## Emperoff

sakeido said:


> I've been trying to find an Engl Retro Tube because it's one of my favorite VST amp sims.. but yeah, impossible. Can't dig one up anywhere. It practically doesn't exist in a physical form.
> 
> It's too bad. It does the Engl 5150-but-super-smooth-and-German thing really well, with some bonus tasty mids. Or so I think, anyway. The VST does. I'll wonder about the real amp forever.



I'm not familiar with that one and don't know how "vintage" it is, but the E520 preamp is pretty awesome. It's more "vintage" flavoured than the E530, but it still has that ENGL character. Plenty of mids and quite agressive.



Check this video out. The dude has a truckload of amps and preamps and likes it the most out of all ENGL preamps.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The Retro Tube isn't that old. It was only released a couple of years ago. It didn't seem to last long, though. Only lasted a couple of years. 

Also I have no problem with smaller-wattage amps. I have a problem with amps that use 6V6 and EL84 tubes, though. That's why I'm glad you got companies like Engl, Soldano, Marshall, and PRS making lunchbox low-wattage amps with either EL34 and 6L6s, but lowering the wattage by having lower-voltage transformers and stuff like that.


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> I'm not familiar with that one and don't know how "vintage" it is, but the E520 preamp is pretty awesome. It's more "vintage" flavoured than the E530, but it still has that ENGL character. Plenty of mids and quite agressive.
> 
> 
> 
> Check this video out. The dude has a truckload of amps and preamps and likes it the most out of all ENGL preamps.




maybe that'd be a good pickup, cuz the actual Retro Tube has no presence knob and ... come on. you gotta have a presence knob. A E520 into a nifty power amp could be fun. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The Retro Tube isn't that old. It was only released a couple of years ago. It didn't seem to last long, though. Only lasted a couple of years.
> 
> Also I have no problem with smaller-wattage amps. I have a problem with amps that use 6V6 and EL84 tubes, though. That's why I'm glad you got companies like Engl, Soldano, Marshall, and PRS making lunchbox low-wattage amps with either EL34 and 6L6s, but lowering the wattage by having lower-voltage transformers and stuff like that.



I thought it was more like 10 years old? The YT demo vids are all dated 2012 then its like the amp just vanished


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

sakeido said:


> maybe that'd be a good pickup, cuz the actual Retro Tube has no presence knob and ... come on. you gotta have a presence knob. A E520 into a nifty power amp could be fun.
> 
> 
> 
> I thought it was more like 10 years old? The YT demo vids are all dated 2012 then its like the amp just vanished



You're right. Fucking time has flew the passed few years for me.  It only lasted like 2 years it feels like.


----------



## Emperoff

It's so funny how people say they are "modern sounding". I mean, the Savage was introduced 25 years ago


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> It's so funny how people say they are "modern sounding". I mean, the Savage was introduced 25 years ago



3 eras: Marshalls, not Marshalls, trying to sound like both with modelers without having either


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> It's so funny how people say they are "modern sounding". I mean, the Savage was introduced 25 years ago



Pretty much *the* amps people think of when you think of "modern" metal tones all came out within the same timeframe in the early '90s. The Dual Recto in 1991, the 5150 in 1992, and the Savage in 1993.

And if you wanna go further and kinda be generous... the first "modern" amp, the Soldano SLO, came out in 1987.


----------



## Emperoff

Matt08642 said:


> 3 eras: Marshalls, not Marshalls, trying to sound like both with modelers without having either



Post of the decade.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Matt08642 said:


> 3 eras: Marshalls, not Marshalls, trying to sound like both with modelers without having either



For everyone a while back wondering why so many people treat small amps of 50 watts or less like a stunning tonal revelation... 

I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I definitely had a phase where anything before a JCM800 was some "grandpas guitars" shit.


----------



## jarledge

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Pretty much *the* amps people think of when you think of "modern" metal tones all came out within the same timeframe in the early '90s. The Dual Recto in 1991, the 5150 in 1992, and the Savage in 1993.
> 
> And if you wanna go further and kinda be generous... the first "modern" amp, the Soldano SLO, came out in 1987.



i would challenge that and say the first "modern" amp was the mesa mark 1 (original boogie) which came out in 1972. the mark 2 c+ came out in 1983.


----------



## USMarine75

jarledge said:


> i would challenge that and say the first "modern" amp was the mesa mark 1 (original boogie) which came out in 1972. the mark 2 c+ came out in 1983.



Wasn't the Mesa Mk2 the first channel switching amp? I'd say that is the basis of modern amp design - having switchable clean and dirty channels, especially if one is high gain.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

USMarine75 said:


> Wasn't the Mesa Mk2 the first channel switching amp? I'd say that is the basis of modern amp design - having switchable clean and dirty channels, especially if one is high gain.



It's probably the first true channel switching amp, the IIB.


----------



## Matt08642

Science_Penguin said:


> I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but I definitely had a phase where anything before a JCM800 was some "grandpas guitars" shit.



I think the metal scene in general would have a "Before JCM = grandpas guitars" mentality, probably since most of the pre 90s gear isn't plug and play instagain at TV volume lmao.


----------



## BenjaminW

Matt08642 said:


> I think the metal scene in general would have a "Before JCM = grandpas guitars" mentality, probably since most of the pre 90s gear isn't plug and play instagain at TV volume lmao.


Honestly, I'd probably say that anything before Plexis would be considered "grandpa's guitars" and not before the JCMs.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Strandberg is to Toone what Skervesen is to Blackmachine.


----------



## laxu

Backsnack said:


> I caught a bit of a video from this year's NAMM where some guy had a vintage Klon on his pedalboard he was carrying around and was saying that people were offering him 4 digit prices to take it off his hands at the show. So I ended up down a YouTube rabbit hole about the Klon Centaur because of its aura of mystery and rarity.
> 
> After watching a lot of videos and being awestruck that a vintage Klons sell for $2000-3000, I just don't understand the appeal whatsoever. It has to be one of the most boring overdrive sounds ever. It's not that it's a BAD sounding overdrive, but I don't understand the popularity or the seemingly mass appeal with dudes who play blues or classic rock, etc. Hell, a Boss Blues Driver or SD-1l sounds better than that. Or if you want to go premium, anything from the Origin RevivalDrive Line sound FAR better, have way more sounds and features, and cost a fraction in comparison.
> 
> Or maybe I just don't understand the vintage pedal market and I'm just not the target audience.



I actually really love the sound of Klon type overdrives. They have a nice, thick, smooth tone that is not as mid heavy as say a Tube Screamer. I think they work well as "always on" type overdrive pedals that can then be paired with the right amp gain or other pedals.

Only a fool would buy an original Klon for big money. Same for buying some fancy Tube Screamer. There are so many great clones on the market that sound just as good at a fraction of the price.

But there will always be people willing to pay whatever the asking price is for something that is rare or just plain priced high.


----------



## StevenC

MaxOfMetal said:


> Strandberg is to Toone what Skervesen is to Blackmachine.


And some days, Toone is to Toone what Skervesen is to Blackmachine.


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Strandberg is to Toone what Skervesen is to Blackmachine.



I'm not sure what you're actually trying to say, but never heard of Toone guitars and they look pretty fucking wicked.

They totally look like something a giant japanese mech would play


----------



## BornToLooze

Emperoff said:


> I'm not sure what you're actually trying to say, but never heard of Toone guitars and they look pretty fucking wicked.
> 
> They totally look like something a giant japanese mech would play


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

OH now I remember Toone. He made that driftwood-looking son of a bitch






And Misha's... thing


----------



## narad

I like Misha's thing. When I got my last job I thought, okay, Toone time, and started a conversation with him. When I got my first post-tax takehome I thought, well, okay, maybe postpone this, and ghosted. Maybe time to revisit...


----------



## Science_Penguin

Emperoff said:


> They totally look like something a giant japanese mech would play



Interesting... I must look into these...


----------



## Adieu

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> OH now I remember Toone. He made that driftwood-looking son of a bitch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Misha's... thing



People unfamiliar with the scene would 100% believe you if you told them this was a comedy skit or caricature


----------



## Matt08642

Adieu said:


> People unfamiliar with the scene would 100% believe you if you told them this was a comedy skit or caricature



I can almost hear that photo explaining dynamics


----------



## Gmork

rokket2005 said:


> Dehydrated pee? What are you canadians doing up there?


We're doing..... Things.... Just leave us alone.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> OH now I remember Toone. He made that driftwood-looking son of a bitch
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And Misha's... thing


Guitars like those look way too much like modern art pieces or Star Wars blasters than actual guitars.


----------



## SexHaver420

Metropolis said:


> Most hi-gain amps sound like shit when master volume is cranked.
> 
> Only dad rockers and old school doom metallers play with fuzz pedals. Or even worse... bass players.
> 
> If you play in environment with over 85dB of noise extended amount of times you should be wearing earplugs, no matter is there a drummer or not.



Fuzz is love. 

Fuzz is life. 

If you do not worship amplifiers you are a coward and I do not respect you.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The first modern amp was the Krank Krankenstein


----------



## gnoll

laxu said:


> I actually really love the sound of Klon type overdrives. They have a nice, thick, smooth tone that is not as mid heavy as say a Tube Screamer. I think they work well as "always on" type overdrive pedals that can then be paired with the right amp gain or other pedals.
> 
> Only a fool would buy an original Klon for big money. Same for buying some fancy Tube Screamer. There are so many great clones on the market that sound just as good at a fraction of the price.
> 
> But there will always be people willing to pay whatever the asking price is for something that is rare or just plain priced high.



I agree!

(Actually I just bought a Klon type pedal.)

I like TS style pedals but I'm just a little tired of the honk. I think the Klon eq curve sounds "nicer".

I do think many times people feel good about things _because _they were expensive. That's okay I guess, but I'm happy I got my pedal for quite cheap


----------



## SexHaver420

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The first modern amp was the Krank Krankenstein



Sir Mesas and Soldanos had cascading gain stages in the 80s. I will disagree 100%.


----------



## Emperoff

I think I'm gonna end up this discussion saying the 5150 was the first modern metal amp. Meaning it is *still* modern, since it's still the benchmark tone for every new metal band/genre that spawns after 30 years. Nobody wants a fucking Marshall for their djent band, nor did for their prog band, or their metalcore band, or... You get the drill.


*Waiting for post-modern metal period to arise*


----------



## TedEH

If 5150 is the modern sound... maybe AxeFX is the post-modern sound? To my ears, the AxeFX has it's own sound, despite being modelled after other sounds.


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> If 5150 is the modern sound... maybe AxeFX is the post-modern sound? To my ears, the AxeFX has it's own sound, despite being modelled after other sounds.



Given the amount of amps in an axe fx, this statement doesn't make much sense to me.

If I dial in a 1:1 copy of a '76 silverface twin, would that not be a vintage sound?


----------



## USMarine75

laxu said:


> I actually really love the sound of Klon type overdrives. They have a nice, thick, smooth tone that is not as mid heavy as say a Tube Screamer. I think they work well as "always on" type overdrive pedals that can then be paired with the right amp gain or other pedals.
> 
> Only a fool would buy an original Klon for big money. Same for buying some fancy Tube Screamer. There are so many great clones on the market that sound just as good at a fraction of the price.
> 
> But there will always be people willing to pay whatever the asking price is for something that is rare or just plain priced high.



Well this is the shitty opinions thread so...

Klons are awesome. Definitely an always on pedal as mentioned. Stacks amazing. It will give a magical boost to cleans, send a clean into a fantastic breakup, send aN amp at breakup into a singing OD, or refine an overdriven amp. Otherwise, it’s known for making everything better. Also a pedal like the Tumnus will act as a buffer if at the end of your pedals when you have a long signal chain thus fixing impedance issues.

All ODs aren’t for everyone. That’s why there’s so many different flavors: Transparent OD like Timmy, mild like Greer Lightspeed, TS with that midhump, full spectrum Klon, Bluesbreaker rasp, etc. 

Also, not all pedals work with all amps. Depending on whether you have Fender, Marshall, or Vox lineage circuitry will affect how that pedal sounds. The Klon is known for working with them all, but again it could just be a personal preference.

Which is why this is the shitty opinions thread. You don’t like it, so it sucks? Cool. You don’t get it. Why? Thousands of guitarists love their tone from a K-style pedal, which is why it’s so popular. I sincerely don’t understand these posts or this thread lol.

And FWIW yeah the only reason to buy a $1k+ original Klon or TS is because you have the money and you collect vintage gear. Then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. But if you just want the tone even the original inventor Bill Finnegan clowns purists with his Klon KTR reissue which has printed on it: “Kindly remember, the ridiculous hype that offends so many is not of my making“.


----------



## TedEH

budda said:


> Given the amount of amps in an axe fx, this statement doesn't make much sense to me.



What I was getting at was less that you can get a 1:1 copy of any amp (I'm not currently convinced you really can), but that the Axe has a sort of sound of its own that will permeate most tones you get out of the device. There was a thread a while ago (I think a thread? Maybe just a conversation in a thread?) about how a lot of the albums recorded through an Axe have this sort of cocked-wah sound to it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Me thinks some people are missing the idea behind the "unpopular opinions" thread.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I love SS amps to death, but don't really like the Ampeg VH140C.


----------



## technomancer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I love SS amps to death, but don't really like the Ampeg VH140C.



HERETIC!


----------



## budda

TedEH said:


> What I was getting at was less that you can get a 1:1 copy of any amp (I'm not currently convinced you really can), but that the Axe has a sort of sound of its own that will permeate most tones you get out of the device. There was a thread a while ago (I think a thread? Maybe just a conversation in a thread?) about how a lot of the albums recorded through an Axe have this sort of cocked-wah sound to it.



I'll be visiting a friend at the studio he works out of to make some new tones this month, I wonder if he'll mention similar.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TedEH said:


> There was a thread a while ago (I think a thread? Maybe just a conversation in a thread?) about how a lot of the albums recorded through an Axe have this sort of cocked-wah sound to it.



I never noticed that with the Axe, even with my brief time owning an AX8. I DO hear that with Kempers, though. And thats seems to be a semi-common complaint I've seen from some Kemper users. If you tweak the EQ and gain of the profile too much, then it starts to sound noticeably artificial and you get that cocked wah sound going on.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> I'll be visiting a friend at the studio he works out of to make some new tones this month, I wonder if he'll mention similar.



I believe the "cocked wah" thing is more of a current production trend than the core sound of the Axe-Fx itself.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The JSX was the best amp that Peavey ever made. Fight me


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> I believe the "cocked wah" thing is more of a current production trend than the core sound of the Axe-Fx itself.



Maybe the "AFX sound" is the result of people using it/other modelers to chain together $50,000 of virtual gear they would otherwise never _ever_ get the chance to use or record. All of a sudden, anyone with a few thousand dollars can make an album and quad track the guitars with modeled Soldanos and Friedmans.


----------



## Beheroth

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The Ultra series was the best amps that Peavey ever made. Fight me



fixed it


----------



## Emperoff

Beheroth said:


> fixed it



They're supposedly very similar amps so no need to fight


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The JSX was the best amp that Peavey ever made. Fight me



Oh shit, I completely forgot about those! That brings back some of the old High School GAS pains...


----------



## dr_game0ver

You don't need 24 frets.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Beheroth said:


> fixed it



Technically correct since the Ultra 120, Ultra 120+, XXX, and JSX were all Ultra series. They really WERE the best Peavey ever did.


----------



## Science_Penguin

dr_game0ver said:


> You don't need 24 frets.



If you don't play that many solos, you barely need 22.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> If you don't play that many solos, you barely need 22.



Most players just need 7 frets....and even that is about 2 too many


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> HERETIC!



I never got the the hype. It just seemed like all distortion to me.


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Most players just need 7 frets....and even that is about 2 too many



I think for most applications outside of chugfests, you could round it off at whatever's normally accessible on an acoustic and be done with it.


----------



## USMarine75

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The JSX was the best amp that Peavey ever made. Fight me


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


>


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The JSX was the best amp that Peavey ever made. Fight me



I've always had a soft spot for the JSX. If the 212 combo wasn't so heavy and had MIDI I'd probably grabbed one.


----------



## USMarine75

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


>


BAST AMP EVAR


----------



## Seabeast2000




----------



## USMarine75

Seabeast2000 said:


>



I think you just broke this thread...


----------



## Science_Penguin

USMarine75 said:


> I think you just broke this thread...



This thread personified:


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Most players just need 7 frets....and even that is about 2 too many



You just gonna take out all Djent rhythm guitarists and the entire deathcore genre (IE a breakdown can be a whole song-core) out all at once like this? 

I mean I agree, I just didn’t expect anyone to say it out loud.


----------



## c7spheres

USMarine75 said:


> Well this is the shitty opinions thread so...
> 
> Klons are awesome. Definitely an always on pedal as mentioned. Stacks amazing. It will give a magical boost to cleans, send a clean into a fantastic breakup, send aN amp at breakup into a singing OD, or refine an overdriven amp. Otherwise, it’s known for making everything better. Also a pedal like the Tumnus will act as a buffer if at the end of your pedals when you have a long signal chain thus fixing impedance issues.
> 
> All ODs aren’t for everyone. That’s why there’s so many different flavors: Transparent OD like Timmy, mild like Greer Lightspeed, TS with that midhump, full spectrum Klon, Bluesbreaker rasp, etc.
> 
> Also, not all pedals work with all amps. Depending on whether you have Fender, Marshall, or Vox lineage circuitry will affect how that pedal sounds. The Klon is known for working with them all, but again it could just be a personal preference.
> 
> Which is why this is the shitty opinions thread. You don’t like it, so it sucks? Cool. You don’t get it. Why? Thousands of guitarists love their tone from a K-style pedal, which is why it’s so popular. I sincerely don’t understand these posts or this thread lol.
> 
> And FWIW yeah the only reason to buy a $1k+ original Klon or TS is because you have the money and you collect vintage gear. Then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. But if you just want the tone even the original inventor Bill Finnegan clowns purists with his Klon KTR reissue which has printed on it: “Kindly remember, the ridiculous hype that offends so many is not of my making“.



Joe Perry from Aerosmith uses Klons and little amps and his tone is great. He should go in the underrated guitarist thread. I always seem to forget about him and then when I hear him play again and his tone I think it's really, really good.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mathemagician said:


> You just gonna take out all Djent rhythm guitarists and the entire deathcore genre (IE a breakdown can be a whole song-core) out all at once like this?
> 
> I mean I agree, I just didn’t expect anyone to say it out loud.


----------



## gunch

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I love SS amps to death, but don't really like the Ampeg VH140C.




Most of the tones I like that I believed to be vh140cs were actually blends with jcm900s or just Valvestates with BBEs in the loop


----------



## Zado

Fortin-related drama is more interesting than his amps.


----------



## BenjaminW

John Sykes' Whitesnake 87 tone depending on my mood is either one of the best tones I've ever heard, or it's a mushy mess.

His tone on Bad Boy Live! however, consistently fucking slaps in my book.


----------



## Matt08642

dr_game0ver said:


> You don't need 24 frets.



This whole time people have been getting rid of headstocks, tone knobs, neck pickups, when all they had to do was get rid of 90% of their frets!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BenjaminW said:


> John Sykes' Whitesnake 87 tone depending on my mood is either one of the best tones I've ever heard, or it's a mushy mess.
> 
> His tone on Bad Boy Live! however, consistently fucking slaps in my book.



It's always been meh to me.  Said this before but I felt like Anthrax and Suicidal Tendencies got better sounds with their Mark IIIs. Dude's one of the few examples where I think his sound got better when he ditched Mesa and he started using using his Jose-modded 2204s.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's always been meh to me.  Said this before but I felt like Anthrax and Suicidal Tendencies got better sounds with their Mark IIIs. Dude's one of the few examples where I think his sound got better when he ditched Mesa and he started using using his Jose-modded 2204s.


John’s tone on tracks like You’re Gonna Break My Heart Again and Standing in the Shadows are great even though he’s using the Mesas (I think) on those tracks. But yeah, Jose modded Marshalls produce great tones. 

I thought of getting a Voodoo HG-Jose mod, but I decided that I could just pop in a Soldano Hot Mod since that doesn’t require wiring and drilling.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jazzy, I don't care what you say, Sykes has some great tone.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Science_Penguin said:


> I think for most applications outside of chugfests, you could round it off at whatever's normally accessible on an acoustic and be done with it.



It was good enough for Scott Ian.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Bloody_Inferno said:


> It was good enough for Scott Ian.


Yeah, but does he play any of the solos in Anthrax? I think he might play a couple, but outside of that, he probably doesn't need anything past the 12th fret.


----------



## efiltsohg

I can't remember the last time I played above like the 15th fret


----------



## Beheroth

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Technically correct since the Ultra 120, Ultra 120+, XXX, and JSX were all Ultra series. They really WERE the best Peavey ever did.



yeah but the JSX sounds neutered compared to the rest of them IMO


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Beheroth said:


> yeah but the JSX sounds neutered compared to the rest of them IMO



It definitely can. Bone stock it's neutered but with the right tubes and setup I actually like it a lot more than the others. They tried to make a high gain amp a "rock amp" by doing dumb shit and it didn't work. It works best as a more refined XXX with better feature set


----------



## Ribboz

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It definitely can. Bone stock it's neutered but with the right tubes and setup I actually like it a lot more than the others. They tried to make a high gain amp a "rock amp" by doing dumb shit and it didn't work. It works best as a more refined XXX with better feature set


Which tubes did you prefer?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Ribboz said:


> Which tubes did you prefer?


I think if memory serves he had/has KT77s in the power section. (Or was it KT66s?) I believe they were KT77s because they fit, where as KT66/KT88 tubes are "bloated" in the middle by comparison.


----------



## Metropolis

Played notes on 24th fret few times today, so I need at least 24 frets


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Ribboz said:


> Which tubes did you prefer?



Mine was modded to fuck so I can't really use that as a good comparison..BUT I found that KT77s worked very well for those amps.

High gain tube in the V1 slot was also needed. JJs of course since Peaveys do great with those.

Now...if you ever get the chance to mod it for 6550s (straight bottle), DO IT


----------



## Science_Penguin

Keytars are awesome. 

I am able to judge who is worthy of my friendship based solely on their response to this opinion.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Keytars are awesome.
> 
> I am able to judge who is worthy of my friendship based solely on their response to this opinion.


I want the new Roland Ax SO FUCKING BAD.

I blame Pogo for this.


----------



## TedEH

Science_Penguin said:


> Keytars are awesome.


I'm surprised they aren't used more often. They take up so much less space on a stage, they can sit on a stand, they're pretty portable, etc. It seems like a really practical instrument if you know how to use it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Science_Penguin said:


> Keytars are awesome.
> 
> I am able to judge who is worthy of my friendship based solely on their response to this opinion.



Keytars are great. 

I saw George Duke playing with Stanley Clarke maybe 20 years ago and he was fucking getting mean with that thing.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Science_Penguin said:


> Keytars are awesome.
> 
> I am able to judge who is worthy of my friendship based solely on their response to this opinion.



Seeing herbie hancock lose his mind for over an hour on stage with a keytar was probably one of my best audience experiences ever not gonna lie


----------



## Werecow

Metropolis said:


> Played notes on 24th fret few times today, so I need at least 24 frets



Max Cavalera only puts 4 strings on his guitars because he "never used to use the top two".


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I want the new Roland Ax SO FUCKING BAD.
> 
> I blame Pogo for this.



Aaaaand adding that to my "Music to check out" list...


----------



## SexHaver420

6x12s are the best guitar cabs. Anything under a 4x12 is stupid. 10 inch speakers are garbage for guitar and have no place in a guitar cab. They're ok for bass tho. Also 15 inch speakers are really rad for guitar.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> 6x12s are the best guitar cabs. Anything under a 4x12 is stupid. 10 inch speakers are garbage for guitar and have no place in a guitar cab. They're ok for bass tho. Also 15 inch speakers are really rad for guitar.



Welp.....this post is definitely right for this thread.


----------



## Adieu

SexHaver420 said:


> 6x12s are the best guitar cabs. Anything under a 4x12 is stupid. 10 inch speakers are garbage for guitar and have no place in a guitar cab. They're ok for bass tho. Also 15 inch speakers are really rad for guitar.



Girls, weaklings, and old farts need not apply....only TRU vikings can metal!!!!


----------



## Metropolis

Werecow said:


> Max Cavalera only puts 4 strings on his guitars because he "never used to use the top two".



_"Cavalera is known for playing his guitar with only four strings; with the B and high E strings opted out. The inspiration struck when he broke both strings one day and he did not bother to replace them. A friend later commented that the guitar looked better without them, thus it became his trademark."
_
Looked... better?  Almost same as cutting one third of your fingers off because you don't use them very often.


----------



## Adieu

TedEH said:


> I'm surprised they aren't used more often. They take up so much less space on a stage, they can sit on a stand, they're pretty portable, etc. It seems like a really practical instrument if you know how to use it.



Keytars have an image problem.

They're heavily associated with corny 80s acts or really tacky wedding singer type personalities.


Of course, fads change... maybe spandex, bare hairy chests, and shoulder pads will come back too.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Adieu said:


> Keytars have an image problem.
> 
> They're heavily associated with corny 80s acts or really tacky wedding singer type personalities.
> 
> 
> Of course, fads change... maybe spandex, bare hairy chests, and shoulder pads will come back too.



Spandex and shoulder pads, maybe. Not seeing the hairy chest taking off outside of Viking Metal.

Or Selleck moustaches and mullets for that matter. Really, people are only interested in 80's fashion they can slip in and out of at will.


----------



## BenjaminW

Adieu said:


> Keytars have an image problem.
> 
> They're heavily associated with corny 80s acts or really tacky wedding singer type personalities.


I wanna see somebody show up to like a classical concert with a keytar and bust out Fur Elise on the Roland Jupiter 8 setting.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Science_Penguin said:


> Keytars are awesome.
> 
> I am able to judge who is worthy of my friendship based solely on their response to this opinion.



As a proud Korg RK100S owner, I agree. 

That reminds me, I still need to get that Steinberger paddle / Keytar brace concept sorted, the same way Philip Bynoe did.


----------



## SexHaver420

Adieu said:


> Girls, weaklings, and old farts need not apply....only TRU vikings can metal!!!!



Most 6x12s have tilt back wheels like 8x10s so you can still rest it on the floor and get all the bass response. Would recommend.

I'm also biased because my friend has two Emperor 6x12s and I got to play a Hiwatt and a Triple Rec and two Laney AOR 100s through them in the room a size of a closet. It was incredible. His don't have casters or anything because he's a beast and just manhandles them.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Bloody_Inferno said:


> As a proud Korg RK100S owner, I agree.
> 
> That reminds me, I still need to get that Steinberger paddle / Keytar brace concept sorted, the same way Philip Bynoe did.




That's one I plan to grab before I hit the stage again. Was gonna buy it off the keyboardist in my old band, but he wound up selling it. It was to Tupperware Remix Party though, so, it's in good hands.


----------



## StevenC

Bloody_Inferno said:


> As a proud Korg RK100S owner, I agree.
> 
> That reminds me, I still need to get that Steinberger paddle / Keytar brace concept sorted, the same way Philip Bynoe did.



That's still the coolest thing I've ever seen: Steinbeeger bass/keytar; rototom drum kit; the best Steve Vai song; and Mike Keneally!


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Chris Wolstenholme is keeping the bass/keytar hybrid flag flying.







Sure it looks ugly and impractical (inb4 kill it with fire comments), and you can just get the synth foot pedals like the Roland PK5 or Keith McMillen 12 Step for those Geddy Lee moments, OR you can just have your synths on a backing track. But I'll be damned sure as hell, you definitely look like a badass when you're skillfully multitasking a bunch of instruments. Certainly better than seeing a band assign 90 percent of their musical backing to tracks while the guitarists/bassist disinterestedly strum binary riffs.

Also see Geddy Lee: the undisputed master of the onstage multitasking. 




StevenC said:


> That's still the coolest thing I've ever seen: Steinbeeger bass/keytar; rototom drum kit; the best Steve Vai song; and Mike Keneally!



That Fire Garden tour lineup was unstoppable. The Ultra Zone tour semi streamlined the instrumentation, and in turn, the spectacle, but still pretty awesome. The only time Vai has equalled that lineup intensity was having Tony Macalpine and Billy Sheehan on his 'Breed' band.


----------



## sleewell

my thoughts on 6x12 guitar cabs.


----------



## Bentaycanada

sleewell said:


> my thoughts on 6x12 guitar cabs.



The last show I played with one of those was exactly that. What a nightmare.


----------



## Gmork

I wonder how a 6x12 of neos would fair.


----------



## StevenC

People who call their Bass VIs and other baritone/long scale 6 strings ERGs are wrong and stupid. They have exactly the same range as any other guitar and don't intrinsically extend range in the way that only adding strings does.


----------



## Science_Penguin

StevenC said:


> People who call their Bass VIs and other baritone/long scale 6 strings ERGs are wrong and stupid. They have exactly the same range as any other guitar and don't intrinsically extend range in the way that only adding strings does.



Guys, I just tuned my Les Paul to B Standard. It's an ERG now. 

I know, I know, DIY conversion projects like that sound daunting, but all the hard work really pays off in the end.


----------



## TedEH

Wait... so extending your instrument to play in a lower range isn't extended range...? I always figured anything more than a standard guitar more-or-less counts. Baritone? Sure. 7 string? Sure. Drop tuned so low that you can't make out what notes are being played anymore? Who cares, why not.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> Wait... so extending your instrument to play in a lower range isn't extended range...? I always figured anything more than a standard guitar more-or-less counts. Baritone? Sure. 7 string? Sure. Drop tuned so low that you can't make out what notes are being played anymore? Who cares, why not.



Moving the range, isn't extending it. 

If I extend my property into the lot next door I'll have a larger plot. If I just move next door, I would just have the same space 20 yards south.


----------



## technomancer

StevenC said:


> People who call their Bass VIs and other baritone/long scale 6 strings ERGs are wrong and stupid. They have exactly the same range as any other guitar and don't intrinsically extend range in the way that only adding strings does.



Or extending scale and adding more frets, thus extending range ala the Holdsworth beasts he had built


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

ERGs are fucking stupid.

Play a normal 6 string like a real man


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ERGs are fucking stupid.
> 
> Play a normal 6 string like a real man


Petition to change SevenString's name to SixString


----------



## Seabeast2000

StevenC said:


> People who call their Bass VIs and other baritone/long scale 6 strings ERGs are wrong and stupid. They have exactly the same range as any other guitar and don't intrinsically extend range in the way that only adding strings does.


Thanks I was genuinely conflating these in my head.


----------



## Gollapalli

All "modern high gain" amps basically sound the same. It doesn't really matter to the audience which one you use. It doesn't matter which one you use on the record. The only reason you pick one amp over another is the way it feels to you, no different than choosing one guitar over another.

Single channel amps > multi channel amps. If you want to clean up your tone, use your bloody volume knob (this is possible even on a 5150 red channel, though it's not ideal).

Most "clean" tones could do with a bit of dirt. They sound bloody lifeless as they are.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ERGs are fucking stupid.
> 
> Play a normal 6 string like a real man


Damn, dude. You really going to just destroy a third of the people's world view on this here website?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Damn, dude. You really going to just destroy a third of the people's world view on this here website?


 For I am an agent of chaos...and I am here to do that Dark Lord's work.


----------



## Science_Penguin

How many of us have completely given up on sevens and ERGs?

Enough to petition a name change?

YeahIPlayedASevenStringOnce.org?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Once at a guitar store.


----------



## SexHaver420

More people should play fretless guitar. It's fun and if you're not doing crazy chords it's hardly even harder to play. With an ebow and/or some rad pedals you can make some super cool sounds you'd never be able to make on a fretted guitar.


----------



## Mathemagician

SexHaver420 said:


> More people should play fretless guitar. It's fun and if you're not doing crazy chords it's hardly even harder to play. With an ebow and/or some rad pedals you can make some super cool sounds you'd never be able to make on a fretted guitar.



That sounds like a lot more work than playing the same 3 metalcore riffs over and over. Gonna stick with what I know.


----------



## SexHaver420

Mathemagician said:


> That sounds like a lot more work than playing the same 3 metalcore riffs over and over. Gonna stick with what I know.



I just do the same 3 Death riffs I know so I'll allow it and I understand your opinion. Have a great day/night.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I can see why folks could consider a baritone (or even a regular guitar tuned down a half step) extended range. It’s not comparing the range of individual instruments, it’s comparing the range of a downtuned guitar to that of a regular tuned guitar. The low Eb or whatever the bottom e string is now tuned to is extended compared to the normal lower range of a guitar.

It’s relative versus absolute.

To take Max’s example. If he extends his house it’ll be extended, if he moves in next door he’s just moved.

But if you ask his neighbour who already lives there if he feels like Max has ‘extended his range’ when Max is parking on his neighbour’s drive, swimming in his pool and drinking the beer out of his fridge. His neighbour is probably going to say yes...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

_MonSTeR_ said:


> But if you ask his neighbour who already lives there if he feels like Max has ‘extended his range’ when Max is parking on his neighbour’s drive, swimming in his pool and drinking the beer out of his fridge. His neighbour is probably going to say yes...



Listen Brian, you know the deal. You use my snowblower and I get pool and fridge access.


----------



## StevenC

Are 24 fret guitars ERGs? The first electric guitars had 21 frets, does that make every electric except for very early Fenders ERGs? Are all electric guitars inherently extended range because acoustics never had that many frets?


----------



## TedEH

Is a piano an ERG?


----------



## c7spheres

Only modified guitars are extended range because say for example if a 30" scale guitar was designed and built to be that way then isn't it normal unto itself? Wouldn't the guitar have to be extended beyond what it was born/built as to be extended. You know, like a penis enlargement? jk


----------



## TedEH

Here's a new one:
People should care about faked bass as much as they care about other faked instruments. Maybe that means caring a lot, or not caring at all, but it should be the same. If you're going to freak out that a guitar performance wasn't "real", and complain about things like drum samples, then the same should go for the bass. I've never heard anyone care at all when bass is just some midi throw in the background, but it deserves as much respect.


----------



## rokket2005

TedEH said:


> Is a piano an ERG?



obviously


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> Here's a new one:
> People should care about faked bass as much as they care about other faked instruments. Maybe that means caring a lot, or not caring at all, but it should be the same. If you're going to freak out that a guitar performance wasn't "real", and complain about things like drum samples, then the same should go for the bass. I've never heard anyone care at all when bass is just some midi throw in the background, but it deserves as much respect.



I think there's more history of the low end being handled by piano and keyboard in contemporary music. So it's not seen as "weird" to not have real bass.

There's a reason the old joke goes:

"How many bassists does it take to screw in a light bulb?"

"None. The pianist does it with thier left hand."

There have been some really interesting discussions about this over on Talkbass through the years.

This forum is so guitar focused that we don't really hear perspectives of bassists and drummers so it's easy to assume those voices don't exist.


----------



## TedEH

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think there's more history of the low end being handled by piano and keyboard in contemporary music. So it's not seen as "weird" to not have real bass.


Sure, but a piano/keyboard is still a "real instrument". Someone still played it. I don't mean to say at all that nothing can replace that range, more that it's pretty common to see people flip out if other instruments are "faked", but nobody cares if you do it with bass.


----------



## TedEH

rokket2005 said:


> obviously


Wow that piano sounds.... kinda terrible. But then again, so does a guitar or bass tuned that low.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> Sure, but a piano/keyboard is still a "real instrument". Someone still played it. I don't mean to say at all that nothing can replace that range, more that it's pretty common to see people flip out if other instruments are "faked", but nobody cares if you do it with bass.



The folks who freak out at "fake" instruments represent like 1% of 1% of guitar players on the internet. The visceral reaction is usually because folks had no clue that this is something that happens, and even then, I think most are put off by the idea they're being "lied to" when folks say it was real instruments/playing. I've never met a person IRL that even cared, and I've been at it for like three decades now. 

Like I said, the discussion is less one sided in other forums/communities where guitar isn't the focus. Recording and bass forums are much more open to this stuff in general than fairly conservative guitar forums where technical ability is treated almost like sport.

I say that as someone who played bass for years before playing guitar.


----------



## technomancer

MaxOfMetal said:


> This forum is so guitar focused that we don't really hear perspectives of bassists and drummers so it's easy to assume those voices don't exist.



Aside from Portnoy, Peart, and Lee I didn't think any of those guys could speak beyond grunts?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Aside from Portnoy, Peart, and Lee I didn't think any of those guys could speak beyond grunts?



Don't be silly. They still haven't figured out how to turn the damn computer on.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> Here's a new one:
> People should care about faked bass as much as they care about other faked instruments. Maybe that means caring a lot, or not caring at all, but it should be the same. If you're going to freak out that a guitar performance wasn't "real", and complain about things like drum samples, then the same should go for the bass. I've never heard anyone care at all when bass is just some midi throw in the background, but it deserves as much respect.


 The difference is that I have yet to see someone (besides berried alive's wife) pretend to play bass when it's programmed, or film a playthrough of drums to programmed drums where it's obvious the drummer isn't even close to playing what you're seeing. If I go to a show and there's no drummer on stage, but I'm hearing drums, there's no deception or faux display of skill, same with bass. If there's no bass player in the band and there's bass, it's coming from somewhere. When someone gets up on stage or makes a 30 second "display of skill" video over what are obviously hyper-edited tracks, it's not the same thing as replacing an instrument that nobody is playing. That'd be like getting mad at electronic artist because they're not playing drums/bass/keys. There's obviously no drums/bass/keys up there, so there's no deception.
I'm using "mad", but I don't think anyone is really pissed off about it, it's just easier than retyping "mildly annoyed" over and over again.


----------



## TedEH

When I say care, I mean in the sense that people lose interest in a guitar-driven track when you suddenly realize that it wasn't performed by a person. People lie about those cases because people care enough to want to look like they're good at it. You might listen to a guitar track _because_ you appreciate what the guitarist is doing, and while that happens with bass too, it happens much less often, I think.

You might see a band with no drummer, using a backing track and think "this show would have been so much better with a real drummer". You might listen to a track with a drum machine and think "man, this sounds too mechanical, it really needs a real drummer to sound right". You might listen to a track with a faked guitar and think "what's the point if they didn't actually play it?" But if you put MIDI bass in your track, nobody cares. There's no "this would be better with a real bass", there's no "what was the point if you didn't actually play it?" there's no push back against using backing bass tracks.

That's not to say that there should be - I'm mostly just lamenting that people generally don't care about bass the way they care about other instruments.


----------



## Metropolis

How are you perceiving tone between thinner neck guitars and more medium necks? Does thicker have "better" tone?

I watched some random Mick Thomson interview about Jackson guitars and he's using guitars with thicker ones in studio for better sound, and guitars with thin necks live for ease of playability.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> There's no "this would be better with a real bass", there's no "what was the point if you didn't actually play it?" there's no push back against using backing bass tracks.
> 
> That's not to say that there should be - I'm mostly just lamenting that people generally don't care about bass the way they care about other instruments.


 Outside of like prog and some technical death metal, most metal/hard rock bass is just plugging away on the kick at the same root note as the guitar or playing the exact same thing as the guitar just an octave lower, so there's not much to miss, lol. I've been working on some stuff of my own recently and haven't even bothered to try and make it sound like a "real" bass anymore. For most of it, it's just filling in a sonic space and staying out of the way of everything else.


----------



## MFB

For recordings, I think it's less of a distraction/whatever you want to call it to not have a "real bass" being used; but seeing a band live without feeling that push from a bass for the low end, that's one that I imagine would leave you wondering what was missing. 

It might sound right, but the feel would be noticeable, for however cliche that sounds.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I use midi bass just to demo ideas for the vibe I am looking for to my bass player, I never leave the midi bass as the finished product.
I do the majority of the writing/arranging, so with me doing all the guitars/synths/vocals, and drum programming, there is already "too much me" in there. I want the input of my bass player because he is excellent at his instrument and I am not excellent at _his_ instrument. I don't "think" like a bass player. Also, with midi, you don't get the clank of fret noise, the slides up & down the neck, and the ghost notes from muting, which are all just as much a part of the performance. I am thoroughly convinced that my tracks wouldn't sound nearly as good as they do now if it were not for my bass player's contributions.


----------



## TedEH

GunpointMetal said:


> Outside of like prog and some technical death metal, most metal/hard rock bass is just plugging away on the kick at the same root note as the guitar or playing the exact same thing as the guitar just an octave lower


I don't know that I agree with this at face value. Nor does any of my opinion have anything to do with metal in particular. The fact that so few feel any need to do something creative with a bass just continues to back up my point that the instrument isn't cared about as much.

And I get it. It's not a "lead" instrument. That's not it's point.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I agree with this at face value. Nor does any of my opinion have anything to do with metal in particular. The fact that so few feel any need to do something creative with a bass just continues to back up my point that the instrument isn't cared about as much.
> 
> And I get it. It's not a "lead" instrument. That's not it's point.


 I agree that bass is usually given a very specific job in a lot of musical productions and not much room outside of that. 


TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> I use midi bass just to demo ideas for the vibe I am looking for to my bass player, I never leave the midi bass as the finished product.
> I do the majority of the writing/arranging, so with me doing all the guitars/synths/vocals, and drum programming, there is already "too much me" in there. I want the input of my bass player because he is excellent at his instrument and I am not excellent at _his_ instrument. I don't "think" like a bass player. Also, with midi, you don't get the clank of fret noise, the slides up & down the neck, and the ghost notes from muting, which are all just as much a part of the performance. I am thoroughly convinced that my tracks wouldn't sound nearly as good as they do now if it were not for my bass player's contributions.


 that's pretty much how I handle drums and bass when I'm demoing. Drums are basically a fancy metronome because I'm not a drummer and both guys I play with are very creative (when given a box to work in, I have yet to play with a drummer that just writes riffs on drums) and for band stuff I'll either completely leave bass off and send tabs of what I'm doing, or if there's some part where I have a specific harmony our syncopation I'll drop samples in.


----------



## Demiurge

GunpointMetal said:


> The difference is that I have yet to see someone (besides berried alive's wife) pretend to play bass when it's programmed, or film a playthrough of drums to programmed drums where it's obvious the drummer isn't even close to playing what you're seeing. If I go to a show and there's no drummer on stage, but I'm hearing drums, there's no deception or faux display of skill, same with bass. If there's no bass player in the band and there's bass, it's coming from somewhere. When someone gets up on stage or makes a 30 second "display of skill" video over what are obviously hyper-edited tracks, it's not the same thing as replacing an instrument that nobody is playing.



Maybe it's just a pathology with guitarists, trying to oversell their abilities to the point where some use shenanigans to try to 'prove' it. Who knows- maybe there's someone on TubaTalk miming-over a sped-up Sousa MIDI right now.


----------



## rokket2005

Low brass players are generally cool. Trumpet players on the other hand...


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

rokket2005 said:


> Low brass players are generally cool. Trumpet players on the other hand...



As a soprano sax player who covers trumpet parts, the ego comes from the music.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I've been aware it happens for awhile. Whether it was Vinnie and his sped up solos in a vain attempt to win the arms race, or the current guitar player of KISS not playing the solos, I've known for quite awhile, and have never been all that thrilled with the idea. If the booklet said "______ solo by _____" or "some solos sped up for effect," that'd be one thing.


----------



## Necky379

SexHaver420 has the best username on Ss.org

707’s are the best actives

81-7’s are the best actives

GHS roundwounds are better than any gimmick that came out since, hex cores suck, Slinky’s are not slinky

GT-OD doesn’t sound anything like an SD-1

SD-1 is the worst boost and a fantastic overdrive


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Gollapalli said:


> If you want to clean up your tone, use your bloody volume knob (this is possible even on a 5150 red channel, though it's not ideal).



This is slowly becoming a lost art and volume knob warriors are becoming a dying breed. Which is a damn shame since you learn so much about dynamics with both controlling your volume and picking/finger attack.


----------



## TedEH

I honestly really dislike a lot of the clean tones made up of aggressive picking on a bridge pickup through a compressor. It just.... has zero subtlety to it. When people say "tone is in the hands", I think it's a lot more true when you're talking clean tones. Lose the ridiculously thick picks, use the volume knob (or even the tone knob if you're adventurous), learn how to make use of low-gain just-after-breaking-up kinds of tones, theeeeeen we're talking.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I've been aware it happens for awhile. Whether it was Vinnie and his sped up solos in a vain attempt to win the arms race, or the current guitar player of KISS not playing the solos, I've known for quite awhile, and have never been all that thrilled with the idea. If the booklet said "______ solo by _____" or "some solos sped up for effect," that'd be one thing.



Vinnie Vincent and Chris Impellitteri make shredding look cool because they can play stupidly fast, but it is the most boring shit to listen to. For example, I came across Stand in Line out of boredom and actually enjoyed it (except for the corny lyrics) until I got to the solo and the YouTube title I think had like "Full Guitar Solo" or something in the tab, and I thought it was gonna be something cool, but instead it's him wanking around the fretboard like he has to get one last rub out in before he does something else. God it's awful.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I agree with this at face value. Nor does any of my opinion have anything to do with metal in particular. The fact that so few feel any need to do something creative with a bass just continues to back up my point that the instrument isn't cared about as much.
> 
> And I get it. It's not a "lead" instrument. That's not it's point.



Fuck bass. Nobody cares about bassists


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fuck bass. Nobody cares about bassists



Oh, NOW who's about to pick a fight with Ghost Lemmy??


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Oh, NOW who's about to pick a fight with Ghost Lemmy??



Lemmy wasn't a bassist. He is god. Don't EVER trivialize him again


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> Vinnie Vincent and Chris Impellitteri make shredding look cool because they can play stupidly fast, but it is the most boring shit to listen to. For example, I came across Stand in Line out of boredom and actually enjoyed it (except for the corny lyrics) until I got to the solo and the YouTube title I think had like "Full Guitar Solo" or something in the tab, and I thought it was gonna be something cool, but instead it's him wanking around the fretboard like he has to get one last rub out in before he does something else. God it's awful.



A lot of that shit is sped up and still sounds sloppy as shit. A bunch of meandering noise. Doesn't look cool at all.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

TedEH said:


> I honestly really dislike a lot of the clean tones made up of aggressive picking on a bridge pickup through a compressor. It just.... has zero subtlety to it. When people say "tone is in the hands", I think it's a lot more true when you're talking clean tones. Lose the ridiculously thick picks, use the volume knob (or even the tone knob if you're adventurous), learn how to make use of low-gain just-after-breaking-up kinds of tones, theeeeeen we're talking.



That's why I love my BC Rich, I have an X2N in the bridge and I use it for cleans with only the tone knob or the varitone. You can be crystal clean fingerpicking on an OD channel with the right adjustments to the varitone or slamming the hell out of your amp with a heavy picking hand and the tone turned up. Not even a volume knob needed. It's one of the reasons I'd sell my RG tbh. Only a volume.


----------



## Matt08642

Spaced Out Ace said:


> A lot of that shit is sped up and still sounds sloppy as shit. A bunch of meandering noise. Doesn't look cool at all.



Yeah this is terrible lmao


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Lemmy wasn't a bassist. He is god. Don't EVER trivialize him again


Who wins in a wrestling match? Lemmy or God?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BenjaminW said:


> Who wins in a wrestling match? Lemmy or God?


----------



## TedEH

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fuck bass. Nobody cares about bassists


I have no counter argument


----------



## Mathemagician

My idea of a good clean tone was always just “neck pickup + no gain on clean channel + MAYBE some occasional chorus if you’re feeling spicy”. 

I don’t need it to be clinical, it should be a little warm and nuanced. I feel like almost any amp should be able to deliver that just by not playing hard. 

Then again I’m not picky on what a workable clean is and I know it.


----------



## narad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fuck bass. Nobody cares about bassists



Looking forward to the DrakkarTyrannis vs. Davie504 video.


----------



## Boofchuck

Matt08642 said:


> Yeah this is terrible lmao


It reminds me of the mindless shredding I did as a kid. Except better maybe?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Vinnie Vincent needs to stay in the '80s. Most overrated shredder ever, also a shitty and scummy person on top of that.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Vinnie Vincent needs to stay in the '80s. Most overrated shredder ever, also a shitty and scummy person on top of that.


But he's a "great songwriter." Lmao.


----------



## Science_Penguin

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Vinnie Vincent needs to stay in the '80s.



I think he did... I mean, has he done anything lately??


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Science_Penguin said:


> I think he did... I mean, has he done anything lately??



He tried to do a comeback a couple of years ago

But Vinnie gonna Vinnie


----------



## SexHaver420

There's no need for a pickup to be hotter than a JB or a Super Distortion. Also I think it's not even an unpopular opinion besides on this website but the Invader is a bad pickup. The Duncan Jazz is the worst pickup of all time though. It's so bland.

Another unpopular opinion I have is that active pickups all suck besides some bass ones.


----------



## lurè

SexHaver420 said:


> The Duncan Jazz is the worst pickup of all time though. It's so bland.



The SD Jazz is good if you don't use a ton of gain; still better than the Sentient.


----------



## SexHaver420

lurè said:


> The SD Jazz is good if you don't use a ton of gain; still better than the Sentient.



It's a trash pickup that's bland and has no character or redeeming features. A Jb or 59 (especially the 59) with the volume knob rolled back does everything better. Also if you're not using a ton of gain single coils are the way because they have more clarity and are more responsive.

It's the only pickup I've ever had that made me want to throw it in the garbage. The only pickups I've ever played that were that bad were guitars with the Ibanez V7/V8/INF pickups.

I had an old Burny Les Paul with horrible pickups and they were still better than the Jazz. The guitar was super good though.


----------



## dr_game0ver

...Sure. And what is best pickup?


----------



## SexHaver420

dr_game0ver said:


> ...Sure. And what is best pickup?



Slightly overwound p90 in the bridge and a strat single coil in the neck for anything that isn't death/black metal.

For stuff like that any decent bridge humbucker with a boost or overdrive. 

The dude from Endon played a strat with single coils when I saw them live and they're one of the gnarliest/harshest/heaviest bands on the planet live.


----------



## dr_game0ver

So best guitar is telecaster. For the rest, a good LP, a SD Jazz with a Bad Monkey. Got it.


----------



## Emperoff

SexHaver420 said:


> There's no need for a pickup to be hotter than a JB or a Super Distortion. Also I think it's not even an unpopular opinion besides on this website but the Invader is a bad pickup. The Duncan Jazz is the worst pickup of all time though. It's so bland.
> 
> Another unpopular opinion I have is that active pickups all suck besides some bass ones.



The Jazz es the best neck pickup of all time. And the middle position coupled with a JB is fucking amazing.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

It's all subjective. I think the Jazz is a fine neck pickup, but my preference as far as SD's are concerned is the '59.


----------



## Metropolis

JB makes everything sound like the 80's, and it's a thin sounding pickup. Alnico 5 doesn't make it that aggressive for metal either. It needs a right guitar to be in, just a standard middle ground pickup found in many guitars and nothing special.


----------



## jarledge

The invader neck pickup installed in the bridge is the best bridge model SD makes.


----------



## SexHaver420

Carl is the best dirt pedal of all time. Also tubescreamer type pedals are all garbage.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

SexHaver420 said:


> Carl is the best dirt pedal of all time. Also tubescreamer type pedals are all garbage.


I have two VFE The Scream pedals, and both of them are laughing at your low IQ.


----------



## USMarine75

Bloody_Inferno said:


> This is slowly becoming a lost art and volume knob warriors are becoming a dying breed. Which is a damn shame since you learn so much about dynamics with both controlling your volume and picking/finger attack.



Exactly. 

Depending on preferences, one of the best clean tones you’ll ever hear is volume and gain up on your amp, even with a boost on, but guitar volume rolled back to about 4. The overdriven tubes add natural compression and spank. Plus you can dig in and get some gristle when you need it. Then roll volume up for dirt. Requires your guitar has a treble bleed circuit though. 2 and 4 on a Strat style guitar or the middle on a Tele are especially magical.

Many of the great clean tones of all time were recorded with a mic’d small combo that was set up this way.

Another common studio trick was using built-in tube tremolo in a combo with speed on 10 and depth set very low to act as a tone enhancer / boost.


----------



## Adieu

Metropolis said:


> JB makes everything sound like the 80's, and it's a thin sounding pickup. Alnico 5 doesn't make it that aggressive for metal either. It needs a right guitar to be in, just a standard middle ground pickup found in many guitars and nothing special.



Lots of metal recorded on JBs

Like old Arch Enemy before they went pop. And Testament.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> Carl is the best dirt pedal of all time. Also tubescreamer type pedals are all garbage.




My Bloody Murder is more valuable than you...and infinitely more useful


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The X2N is for people who ate paint chips as kids and often choke on their own spit if someone isn't around to remind them to swallow.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The X2N is for people who ate paint chips as kids and often choke on their own spit if someone isn't around to remind them to swallow.



Oh you.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> Oh you.
> 
> View attachment 83756



Death sucked.


----------



## narad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Death sucked.



Now you're just trollin'. Next thing you're telling me is a used prestige isn't a great instrument for the money... These are the tenets of the forum.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

narad said:


> Now you're just trollin'. Next thing you're telling me is a used prestige isn't a great instrument for the money... These are the tenets of the forum.


....isn't that an Ibanez? Meh...The only thing that came from them that I was even remotely into was the Halberd


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Ibanez Destroyer or nothing


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Ibanez Destroyer or nothing


 Oh yeah I forgot that was a thing. Definitely better than all the other crap Ibanez puts out buuuut..it's just a hacked up Explorer. Halberd for me, please


----------



## c7spheres

Bloody_Inferno said:


> This is slowly becoming a lost art and volume knob warriors are becoming a dying breed. Which is a damn shame since you learn so much about dynamics with both controlling your volume and picking/finger attack.





USMarine75 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Depending on preferences, one of the best clean tones you’ll ever hear is volume and gain up on your amp, even with a boost on, but guitar volume rolled back to about 4. The overdriven tubes add natural compression and spank. Plus you can dig in and get some gristle when you need it. Then roll volume up for dirt. Requires your guitar has a treble bleed circuit though. 2 and 4 on a Strat style guitar or the middle on a Tele are especially magical.
> 
> Many of the great clean tones of all time were recorded with a mic’d small combo that was set up this way.
> 
> Another common studio trick was using built-in tube tremolo in a combo with speed on 10 and depth set very low to act as a tone enhancer / boost.



- I'm not a volume knob rider but I use a Sound Sculpture Volcano for a similar thing. I love the Vocano. It's hands down the best sounding volume device out there, imo. It uses a series of midi controlled resistors in 2db increments and you can send it a program or control change message to recall an exact setting every time or you can use an expression/midi pedal to do volume control too. It even has a boost function as well in it. It just does whatever message you send it. No programming other than the midi controller sending the messages. It sounds like it's not plugged in at all. Super transparent. 

- It's really cool because you can hit the amp exactly how you want exactly every single time and also leave your pickups at full volume as wel,l retaining the full dynamics and treble etc. 
- I actually prefer it more than the tone of rolling back the volume on the guitar though it's a little different. It's hard to explain because it sounds and works so much better than a normal volume pot or pedal and better than VCA style pedals too. It's essentially feels like having extra amp channels or something. 
- It's nice to go from one gain structure to another on the fly from one riff to the next and hit it in time and exactly every time. Something I can't do that fast and perfectly with a volume knob or pedal.
- Worth checking into and totally worth the $250, but yeah, volume knob is lost art. People don't know what they're missing.


----------



## Aliascent

c7spheres said:


> .
> - volume knob is lost art. People don't know what they're missing.


This, but also for tone knobs. Being able to go from a dark jazzy sound to a bright, spanky one by tweaking one knob is just lovely.

Also , onboard circuits (mid or gain boosts, volume boost and so on) are stupidly fun and should be on more guitars. On all of them in fact.


----------



## USMarine75

Aliascent said:


> This, but also for tone knobs. Being able to go from a dark jazzy sound to a bright, spanky one by tweaking one knob is just lovely.
> 
> Also , onboard circuits (mid or gain boosts, volume boost and so on) are stupidly fun and should be on more guitars. On all of them in fact.



Everyone needs to own a G&L S-500 with their PBX tone controls and switching. If I could afford it I’d change every one of my guitars to match.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I do try to make use of a volume knob when possible. I like to have separate knobs for the neck and bridge pickup so I could have the bridge pickup full bore and then use the neck pickup for a cleaner or slightly broken up sound. 

But I also prefer a pristine, clean as fuck clean. Bright, clear, and no breakup at all. Like a Fender Silverface or a JC120. Add some chorus and delay and verb too.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I do try to make use of a volume knob when possible. I like to have separate knobs for the neck and bridge pickup so I could have the bridge pickup full bore and then use the neck pickup for a cleaner or slightly broken up sound.
> 
> But I also prefer a pristine, clean as fuck clean. Bright, clear, and no breakup at all. Like a Fender Silverface or a JC120. Add some chorus and delay and verb too.



You’d like the Magnatone 260 and 280 line of “Hi-Fi” cleans then. Especially the stereo 280. They have true pitch vibrato not tremolo which is interesting to say the least. With chords it’s delightful.

I do love Blackface (is this still the term lol) or Silverface cleans... the DR and Princeton are two of the most recorded cleans of all time. But you should try Brownface cleans like an original Super or the new Chris Stapleton. More magical IMO.

And I actually prefer amps like the Princeton when they’re close or at breakup. Especially if they’re at breakup and then you can control with the guitar vol knob, pick, or fingers.


----------



## Zado

LANEY deserves more attention than Marshall.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Zado said:


> LANEY deserves more attention than Marshall.



It's shame they're focusing on pedals and practice amps now. 

The GL I had was pretty killer. What the DSL/TSL should have been.


----------



## efiltsohg

Zado said:


> LANEY deserves more attention than Marshall.



In the last 39 years, yeah, but most of what they got famous for was copied from Marshall in the first place

edit: I own Laneys but not Marshalls though


----------



## USMarine75

Zado said:


> LANEY deserves more attention than Marshall.



That’s like saying Selmer deserves more attention than Vox.

More? Yes.

More than Marshall? No.

(FWIW Laney makes awesome stuff IMO)


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's shame they're focusing on pedals and practice amps now.
> 
> The GL I had was pretty killer. What the DSL/TSL should have been.



Back killers, you mean  The VH100R is the heaviest head I've ever carried, and the combo version was outrageously heavy as well (110lbs). Probably heaviest combo ever.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Emperoff said:


> Back killers, you mean  The VH100R is the heaviest head I've ever carried, and the combo version was outrageously heavy as well (110lbs). Probably heaviest combo ever.



I always used a live-in rack when gigging, so shit was heavy no matter what. 

That said, I don't remember my GL100H weighing any more than my Triple Rec or 5150 I had at the time.


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> I always used a live-in rack when gigging, so shit was heavy no matter what.
> 
> That said, I don't remember my GL100H weighing any more than my Triple Rec or 5150 I had at the time.



My VH100R dwarfed the 5150 in size and weight. I had both of them stacked at some point. It was around 20lbs heavier, IIRC.


----------



## Metropolis

Emperoff said:


> My VH100R dwarfed the 5150 in size and weight. I had both of them stacked at some point.



Laney is quite hefty, 25kg's while 5150 is something over 20kg's.

What's up with Laney, they even don't have regular cabs on production anymore. Only bigger head they have is 60 watt Ironheart. Earlier models are sold of course, but they're not on their website anymore.


----------



## Emperoff

Dunno. I guess when they decided to focus on cheap stuff things went south. I gig regularly with an enslaved AOR30 combo that packs a punch and it's super portable.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Metropolis said:


> Laney is quite hefty, 25kg's while 5150 is something over 20kg's.
> 
> What's up with Laney, they even don't have regular cabs on production anymore. Only bigger head they have is 60 watt Ironheart. Earlier models are sold of course, but they're not on their website anymore.



Yeah, no more GL, VH, or AOR. Just the Ironheart, GH, and LA as far as full sized, 50+ watt tube heads. 

I guess the GH is supposed to be somewhere between the GL and AOR though. 

They still have the Nexus line though, which is pretty cool.


----------



## SexHaver420

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Death sucked.



*Death fucked.


----------



## narad

USMarine75 said:


> That’s like saying Selmer deserves more attention than Vox.
> 
> More? Yes.
> 
> More than Marshall? No.
> 
> (FWIW Laney makes awesome stuff IMO)



From an aesthetic point of view, Selmer deserves more attention than Vox.


----------



## Adieu

Emperoff said:


> Back killers, you mean  The VH100R is the heaviest head I've ever carried, and the combo version was outrageously heavy as well (110lbs). Probably heaviest combo ever.



There's a couple Mesas that go >120


----------



## youngthrasher9

EL84 tubes belong in things labeled Vox and Orange, and absolutely fucking nothing else.


----------



## BenjaminW

I normally hate burl tops, but this burl top is the only one that is actually relatively pleasing to look at


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Is that an EBMM Axis?


----------



## Science_Penguin

BenjaminW said:


> I normally hate burl tops...



...and, for me at least, that stands.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Is that an EBMM Axis?


Yeah, it's an EBMM Axis Super Sport. I was gonna originally post that I thought the Axis looks better than the EVH Wolfgang, but then I found myself going back and forth on that. 

But luckily, I came across that burl top Axis and thought it looked cool normally since I hate burl tops as I said before.


----------



## Science_Penguin

BenjaminW said:


> Yeah, it's an EBMM Axis Super Sport. I was gonna originally post that I thought the Axis looks better than the EVH Wolfgang, but then I found myself going back and forth on that.
> 
> But luckily, I came across that burl top Axis and thought it looked cool normally since I hate burl tops as I said before.



I'd agree with you on the Axis looking better nowadays. The current Wolfgang lineup does nothing for me in terms of aesthetic.


----------



## BenjaminW

Science_Penguin said:


> I'd agree with you on the Axis looking better nowadays. The current Wolfgang lineup does nothing for me in terms of aesthetic.


The EVH Signature Wolfgang looks nice, but that's about it for me.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The Axis is the best looking EVH sig, and the best looking Music Man as well. 

Also, while we're at it, the JP6/JP7 >>>>>>>>> All other JP sigs.


----------



## USMarine75

BenjaminW said:


> I normally hate burl tops, but this burl top is the only one that is actually relatively pleasing to look at
> View attachment 83795



Great guitars, but they all feel quite different surprisingly:

The EVH Wolfgang is 12-16" compound radius, the Peavey Wolfgang/HP is 15", and the EBMM EVH/Axis are at most 10" (maybe less).

The Peavey has a noticeably thicker neck at the nut but when you get to the 12th fret+ they are similar.

EBMM also heavily rolls their fret ends, vs Peavey and EVH that does not.

SS frets on the EVH vs nickel on the others (much brighter tone on the EVH).


----------



## Science_Penguin

You know what it is, really? It's the black hardware. So many of these models have black hardware and between that and the baked maple or other darker fingerboards, they just look... Dull. As in, they don't have the flash I always liked to see in the Axis.


----------



## USMarine75

Science_Penguin said:


> You know what it is, really? It's the black hardware. So many of these models have black hardware and between that and the baked maple or other darker fingerboards, they just look... Dull. As in, they don't have the flash I always liked to see in the Axis.




They sure play and sound aces though. And what's funny is how many people would cry that it needs black hardware if it had chrome. Oh well, more for me...


----------



## InHiding

Those Wolfgangs... The 1st string is so close to the edge of the frets makes a typical vibrato impossible. You have to just bend up and come back down. The neck of the one I once tried was like a also log, clunky feel. EVH is an amazing guitarist and composer but that's the worst guitar I've ever played.


----------



## Wuuthrad

I like lo-output microphonic pickups like PAF humbuckers or ones built like them at really high gain levels- there’s like a ghost in the machine sound!


----------



## USMarine75

InHiding said:


> The neck of the one I once tried was like a also log, clunky feel. EVH is an amazing guitarist and composer but that's the worst guitar I've ever played.



The asymmetrical profile Wolfgang neck shape is usually one of the most liked aspects... and it's a best seller for Warmoth. 

Which version did you try?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Science_Penguin said:


> You know what it is, really? It's the black hardware. So many of these models have black hardware and between that and the baked maple or other darker fingerboards, they just look... Dull. As in, they don't have the flash I always liked to see in the Axis.



No clue why they started putting black on everything. It used to be all chrome hardware.


----------



## Science_Penguin

USMarine75 said:


> They sure play and sound aces though. And what's funny is how many people would cry that it needs black hardware if it had chrome. Oh well, more for me...



What would be the unpopular opinion? Chrome or Black? I assume chrome just cause it's cheaper.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> No clue why they started putting black on everything. It used to be all chrome hardware.



Still available on the 5150 Series and the WG Standard (cheap import) models.


----------



## InHiding

USMarine75 said:


> Which version did you try?



I have no idea, it was years ago. Maybe today the neck wouldn't feel so bad, I've changed as a player and I actually have a PRS with an asymmetrical profile. I still disliked the fact that I couldn't do vibratos the way I'm used to and looking at that picture the 1st and 6th strings still seem to lie right at the fret ends. That's not good for me.


----------



## USMarine75

Science_Penguin said:


> What would be the unpopular opinion? Chrome or Black? I assume chrome just cause it's cheaper.



I think saying black is better than chrome is the much more unpopularar opinion, no? Since chrome is the more popular feature in general.



InHiding said:


> I have no idea, it was years ago. Maybe today the neck wouldn't feel so bad, I've changed as a player and I actually have a PRS with an asymmetrical profile. I still disliked the fact that I couldn't do vibratos the way I'm used to and looking at that picture the 1st and 6th strings still seem to lie right at the fret ends. That's not good for me.



Just curious because EVH makes cheaper import versions and they make amazing MIJ, MIM, and MiA versions. The older USA Peaveys were amazing IMO (I own a few ) but the MIK 2000 Peavey Wolfgangs were garbage. And the MIA EBMM EVH/Axis is amazing but more vintage feeling than the more shreddy EVH and Peavey versions.


----------



## Science_Penguin

USMarine75 said:


> I think saying black is better than chrome is the much more unpopularar opinion, no? Since chrome is the more popular feature in general.



Probably depends who you ask and how much they like Slayer.


----------



## USMarine75

Better? Chrome where chrome belongs... and black where black belongs (wait... phrasing?).


----------



## BenjaminW

Hmmm those hardtail Wolfgangs sure look purdy.


----------



## USMarine75

BenjaminW said:


> Hmmm those hardtail Wolfgangs sure look purdy.



They're 24.75" scale Gibson killers too.

I never measured mine but they sound underwound compared to the stock Wolfgang pickups, but that could just be the covers. Way more dynamic sounding and sounds amazing through an EVH 5153 100s.


----------



## c7spheres

USMarine75 said:


> Better? Chrome where chrome belongs... and black where black belongs (wait... phrasing?).



I must be pretty easy going. I think they'd all look good with either chrome or black hardware. I prefer black because I don't like light's reflecting off into my eyes and blinding me. Gloss finishes do that too I've since found out.


----------



## SexHaver420

Modeling amps are bad and it's not because they sound bad. My friend has a studio and a bunch of them and they're really rad to play with (the Neural DSP bass one he has is fucking incredible for dirty tones). They just don't respond the same as an actual full tube amp and a good cab. They don't feel right to play or have the same amount of dynamics. They're lighter and sound good and are easier to record with though. They also sound as good as the high gain stuff they try to model but for low/mid gain stuff they're no where near close. I'll like them as soon as they can model a Matamp like I play and feel and sound and respond the same.

There's no replacement for big cabs and high volume.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> Modeling amps are bad and it's not because they sound bad. My friend has a studio and a bunch of them and they're really rad to play with (the Neural DSP bass one he has is fucking incredible for dirty tones). They just don't respond the same as an actual full tube amp and a good cab. They don't feel right to play or have the same amount of dynamics. They're lighter and sound good and are easier to record with though. They also sound as good as the high gain stuff they try to model but for low/mid gain stuff they're no where near close. I'll like them as soon as they can model a Matamp like I play and feel and sound and respond the same.
> 
> There's no replacement for big cabs and high volume.



Listen...there's only two kinds of amps. High gain....and bullshit.

Modelers aren't designed for bullshit


----------



## Wuuthrad

V necks are the best! 

T-shirts aren’t bad either, if you’re a man (have a beard.)


----------



## Wuuthrad

SexHaver420 said:


> Modeling amps are bad and it's not because they sound bad. My friend has a studio and a bunch of them and they're really rad to play with (the Neural DSP bass one he has is fucking incredible for dirty tones). They just don't respond the same as an actual full tube amp and a good cab. They don't feel right to play or have the same amount of dynamics. They're lighter and sound good and are easier to record with though. They also sound as good as the high gain stuff they try to model but for low/mid gain stuff they're no where near close. I'll like them as soon as they can model a Matamp like I play and feel and sound and respond the same.
> 
> There's no replacement for big cabs and high volume.




That’s a pretty popular opinion! I mean even I agree, and I never agree with anyone, unless they’re right!


----------



## Mathemagician

Gain goes down?


----------



## Wuuthrad

Mathemagician said:


> Gain goes down?



Are you being sarcastic? This is a metal guitar forum- odds are you just might be...lol

Distortion? Compression? Signal chain? It depends on which.


----------



## SexHaver420

Wuuthrad said:


> That’s a pretty popular opinion! I mean even I agree, and I never agree with anyone, unless they’re right!



I don't even remember 80% of the things I post because I get drunk and shitpost but at least I'm honest about it.

Every time I sign in it's just a new adventure.


----------



## Mathemagician

Wuuthrad said:


> Are you being sarcastic? This is a metal guitar forum- odds are you just might be...lol
> 
> Distortion? Compression? Signal chain? It depends on which.



(Yes I was jk) lol.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

SexHaver420 said:


> There's no replacement for big cabs and high volume.



Nor do I think there's ever going to be. If cab sims were going to sound any better than they do now then they already would've. That's not to say that some as yet unrealized technology won't be able to parrot the sound of real cab more efficiently some day, but I don't see that on the horizon any time soon.


----------



## laxu

SexHaver420 said:


> Modeling amps are bad and it's not because they sound bad. My friend has a studio and a bunch of them and they're really rad to play with (the Neural DSP bass one he has is fucking incredible for dirty tones). They just don't respond the same as an actual full tube amp and a good cab. They don't feel right to play or have the same amount of dynamics. They're lighter and sound good and are easier to record with though. They also sound as good as the high gain stuff they try to model but for low/mid gain stuff they're no where near close. I'll like them as soon as they can model a Matamp like I play and feel and sound and respond the same.
> 
> There's no replacement for big cabs and high volume.



Your output devices matter and so does volume. Typical modeler chains are the equivalent of being in the control room listening to an amp and cab miced in the recording room. That's never going to be the same as being in there yourself.


----------



## Bogner

A low wattage amp and a 1x12 cab sounds just as good at lower volume as a 4x12 and a 100 watt head cranked.













































I don't agree...the answer is always more 4x12 cabs.


----------



## BenjaminW

Whoever at Gibson during the Norlin years thought of putting a burst finish on the neck, headstock, and the sides of a Les Paul should really rethink their choices in life because holy shit, I can't stand looking at it.

Of course, there's always exceptions to this as some LP's can look hella nice with it, but I usually tend to wanna gag at the sight of the excessive amounts of burst finish on a Les Paul from the Norlin years.


----------



## Demiurge

^Norlin era had the pancake bodies, right? Although I like it at times, it seems that some burst finishes are used to distract from unattractive seams in multi-piece bodies, which may explain the side-bursts. I like a bit of burst on the neck, though- that actually looks like a thoughtful touch to me.


----------



## gnoll

I'd say I'm more bothered by sharp edges on bursts rather than where they're put. If a burst doesn't have a smooth gradient I might have some problem with it.


----------



## Demiurge

^What's the best term for that- frosting-burst? It's like looking at a slice taken out of a cake. I see a lot of Kiesels like that.


----------



## gunch

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Death sucked.



hey bud rep system is gone you don’t need to fish for neg rep anymore


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

gnoll said:


> I'd say I'm more bothered by sharp edges on bursts rather than where they're put. If a burst doesn't have a smooth gradient I might have some problem with it.



True. A teardrop burst with a hard gradient looks worse than an edge burst with a smooth gradient


----------



## gnoll

Demiurge said:


> ^What's the best term for that- frosting-burst? It's like looking at a slice taken out of a cake. I see a lot of Kiesels like that.





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>



Lol, yeah, that Ltd instantly made me think of marble cake tbh.

Cherry sunburst LPs with this are often called clown bursts because they look like clowns.


----------



## Matt08642

gnoll said:


> I'd say I'm more bothered by sharp edges on bursts rather than where they're put. If a burst doesn't have a smooth gradient I might have some problem with it.





Demiurge said:


> ^What's the best term for that- frosting-burst? It's like looking at a slice taken out of a cake. I see a lot of Kiesels like that.



Kiesel does this all the time, it looks horrible:
















If I ever got a Kiesel, it would have to be 1 solid color.


----------



## gnoll

I didn't even know guitars could look like that. I must be old or boring. Or both. Oh well.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Matt08642 said:


> View attachment 84003
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 84006



These two look okay for the most part. But the rest...
hurk


----------



## Matt08642

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> These two look okay for the most part. But the rest...
> hurk



I guess they're maybe saved by extreme figuring?


----------



## Emperoff

Matt08642 said:


> Kiesel does this all the time, it looks horrible:
> 
> View attachment 84004
> 
> 
> If I ever got a Kiesel, it would have to be 1 solid color.









I think that one is super cool as it looks clearly intentional. The others? Remind me of those BRJ bursts that were super drastic in transition. Yikes


----------



## technomancer

Emperoff said:


> I think that one is super cool as it looks clearly intentional. The others? Remind me of those BRJ bursts that were super drastic in transition. Yikes



Even though I actually like that finish :ducks: that design still looks backwards thanks to the lower horns.


----------



## BenjaminW

technomancer said:


> Even though I actually like that finish :ducks: that design still looks backwards thanks to the lower horns.


It reminds me of a weird Charvel Star.


----------



## technomancer

BenjaminW said:


> It reminds me of a weird Charvel Star.



The bottom point on a pointy guitar (V, star, etc etc) should NEVER be the longer point


----------



## High Plains Drifter

The smooth knobs on EHX pedals just suck.


----------



## Matt08642

BenjaminW said:


> It reminds me of a weird [brand] [model].



That's how I'd describe most things Kiesel.


----------



## Necky379

SexHaver420 said:


> I don't even remember 80% of the things I post because I get drunk and shitpost but at least I'm honest about it.
> 
> Every time I sign in it's just a new adventure.



As much as I disagree with his Invader hate, and I do disagree, I respect this member.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Kiesel is for people who want SIMS/HalfLife guitars in the real world. They always look real and obnoxious as if made by teenagers in a customizeable game.


----------



## SexHaver420

Compression is awful besides for recording purposes. It's just for lazy people with bad dynamics.

Also the headstock wraps are for people who can't mute decently.


----------



## Necky379

Again we disagree. Marshall’s Ed the Compressor is an underrated Ross type boost and a wrap on the tuner side of the nut makes the guitar sound better, those overtones are bad unless we’re talking Gibson-ish stuff. For some reason the overtones are good with a Gibson and I over analyze past the point of my playing skills, case in point. I wrap everything except for my Gibson and Dean, tuner side.


----------



## Necky379

The + is as good as the OG 5150, both are god tier metal tone generators. As good, love both.


----------



## narad

Emperoff said:


> I think that one is super cool as it looks clearly intentional. The others? Remind me of those BRJ bursts that were super drastic in transition. Yikes



It's like some alien that steals bodies (The Thing, etc.), but tried to assimilate a normal X guitar and was interrupted during the process.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Dunno if I mentioned this before but here goes.

After a certain point, the amp sim you have doesn't even fucking matter. Regardless of whether or not it's free, or if it's expensive, or supposed to be "x" amp or another.

After EQ, mixing, post processing, mastering, etc...anything can be fucking anything and nobody but you will know the difference.

Get a bunch of amp sims you like, the free ones work just fine, load up on IRs and some boost pedal sims and you're good to go.

When it comes to metal it doesn't even really fucking matter. Especially when you throw distortion on and effects and all that shit. 

Experiment with everything and see what you like.


----------



## TedEH

SexHaver420 said:


> Also the headstock wraps are for people who can't mute decently.


I used to think this until someone pointed out the behind-the-nut ringing they got it to address, then I realized one of my guitars does it too. Not every guitar does it. But the ones that do have nothing to do with muting technique.

Edit: I think this conversation was already had pages ago


----------



## USMarine75

SexHaver420 said:


> Compression is awful besides for recording purposes. It's just for lazy people with bad dynamics.
> 
> Also the headstock wraps are for people who can't mute decently.



Never understood these "opinions'. As if there's a "right" or "wrong" way to play guitar.


----------



## Emperoff

SexHaver420 is definetely winning the thread.


----------



## Metropolis

Compressors are actually good for adding more dynamics as a boost in front of clean amp, with more gain effect is quite subtle. Boosting amp also makes compression in the low end, so... what compression even means?

Headstock wraps, socks, tape, hair bands... whatever have been used forever in the studio for muting strings.


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> Compressors are actually good for adding more dynamics


I hate being that guy, but that's literally the opposite of what a compressor does, by definition. 


Metropolis said:


> what compression even means?


Compression is reduction of dynamic range. It means reducing the differences between the loudest and quietest parts of a sound.


----------



## budda

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Dunno if I mentioned this before but here goes.
> 
> After a certain point, the amp sim you have doesn't even fucking matter. Regardless of whether or not it's free, or if it's expensive, or supposed to be "x" amp or another.
> 
> After EQ, mixing, post processing, mastering, etc...anything can be fucking anything and nobody but you will know the difference.
> 
> Get a bunch of amp sims you like, the free ones work just fine, load up on IRs and some boost pedal sims and you're good to go.
> 
> When it comes to metal it doesn't even really fucking matter. Especially when you throw distortion on and effects and all that shit.
> 
> Experiment with everything and see what you like.



It's supposed to be UNpopular opinions.


----------



## sirbuh

fretboard binding looks lame


----------



## oniduder

i don't like fretboard binding or binding in general unless it's something very very special on the body, 

and

i don't like tone knobs on my guitar, i'm either an immature player at 37 or just correct and there's no point

unpopular?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Ignite Amps has some great free amp sims and cab IR loader.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Ignite Amps has some great free amp sims and cab IR loader.



One of my favorite recorded tones was done with one of their amps sims. Can't remember the name ATM. The one with the glass front on it.


----------



## Demiurge

oniduder said:


> i don't like tone knobs on my guitar, i'm either an immature player at 37 or just correct and there's no point
> unpopular?



I don't like the tone knob either, but maybe it's just from a lifetime of cheap guitars with cheap pots where the tone rolls-off into dull, muffled tone and not the mellow, jazzy "bloop" I want.


----------



## BenjaminW

sirbuh said:


> fretboard binding looks lame


You heretic.


----------



## Werecow

oniduder said:


> i don't like fretboard binding or binding in general unless it's something very very special on the body,
> 
> and
> 
> i don't like tone knobs on my guitar, i'm either an immature player at 37 or just correct and there's no point
> 
> unpopular?



I don't like binding either. I don't like it brand new, and even less when it ages and starts going that off yellow colour.
When i was younger i found it amusing that the versions of guitars i wanted that didn't have binding were cheaper, when i would have actually paid the higher price to take the binding away if it was reversed  I bought a Les Paul Studio instead of a Standard just because of the lack of binding.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> One of my favorite recorded tones was done with one of their amps sims. Can't remember the name ATM. The one with the glass front on it.


Emissary?


----------



## Wuuthrad

Demiurge said:


> I don't like the tone knob either, but maybe it's just from a lifetime of cheap guitars with cheap pots where the tone rolls-off into dull, muffled tone and not the mellow, jazzy "bloop" I want.



IMO 250K taper pots sound better on vol. and tone with humbuckers than 500K.


----------



## Demiurge

^Thank you, I'll have to try that.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> It's supposed to be UNpopular opinions.



Shit it seems to be an unpopular opinion


----------



## budda

Wuuthrad said:


> IMO 250K taper pots sound better on vol. and tone with humbuckers than 500K.



I had a 250k in a strat with a JB and it was muted and muffled. 500k and it sounded normal again.


----------



## laxu

oniduder said:


> i don't like tone knobs on my guitar, i'm either an immature player at 37 or just correct and there's no point



Tone knob is great but requires setting the amp so that it is overly bright with tone on 10 and then you can rein it back and presto, you have an adjustable brightness control right on your guitar.

Same deal with volume. Set amp gain to more than you would need and control it with the guitar volume control or a volume pedal.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Emissary?


Yep, that was it.


----------



## c7spheres

Demiurge said:


> ... mellow, jazzy "bloop" I want.


 
- I love guitar because when people talk about rolling back a tone pot and say mellow, jazzy "bloop" as a description we know exactly what you're talking about.
- I've never used the term "bloop" to describe it, but I will now because it's spot on! All these years I've been searching for the word "bloop" : )


----------



## Matt08642

Not sure if it's unpopular but, Planet Waves makes the absolute shittiest, dirt garbage-tier cables out there. I've never had a cable start crackling and stop working as fast as Planet Garbage. If you want your cable to probably be broken before you even buy it, Planet Waves is your brand.

Odd, since I love D'addario strings and consistently have the best experience with them.


----------



## Necky379

Those cables suck so bad I can’t believe that opinion would be unpopular. Love their locking tuners.


----------



## BigViolin

Rosewood boards are brighter than maple.


----------



## Wuuthrad

budda said:


> I had a 250k in a strat with a JB and it was muted and muffled. 500k and it sounded normal again.



Yea I don’t doubt it. I’m going off my Dean V with Dimarzio PAF, 250k audio taper. Whatever it is sounds good to my ears.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

P-Basses with a J pickup in the bridge position are ugly. I've been hunting down a good P, but just about everything now has that pesky J. Ugh.


----------



## budda

MaxOfMetal said:


> P-Basses with a J pickup in the bridge position are ugly. I've been hunting down a good P, but just about everything now has that pesky J. Ugh.



I just want a cheap well loved MIM P.


----------



## diagrammatiks

veneers are stick guitar stickers. 

why not just paint a nice sparkly solid color or do some cool printed shit. 

not everything has to looked flamed ya know.


----------



## Science_Penguin

MaxOfMetal said:


> P-Basses with a J pickup in the bridge position are ugly. I've been hunting down a good P, but just about everything now has that pesky J. Ugh.



Hey, I like to give my P a good J. I'm not ashamed to talk about it.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

diagrammatiks said:


> veneers are stick guitar stickers.
> 
> why not just paint a nice sparkly solid color or do some cool printed shit.
> 
> not everything has to looked flamed ya know.



Or just show the fucking wood grain. 

Like Gibson does with their plain-top guitars, or PRS does with their Standards.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

MaxOfMetal said:


> P-Basses with a J pickup in the bridge position are ugly. I've been hunting down a good P, but just about everything now has that pesky J. Ugh.





I've been hunting for a good P myself, which is funny when the guy who really made me want a P, calls himself J. 






Silly upside down logo aside, reverse headstocks on P Basses look awesome.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I've been hunting for a good P myself, which is funny when the guy who really made me want a P, calls himself J.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Silly upside down logo aside, reverse headstocks on P Basses look awesome.



That I can definitely dig, reverse logo and all.


----------



## Mathemagician

Fretboards are for looks and don’t affect anything. I mean, it might, but also probably not. Playing high gain metal with Gates, compressors, sweep/contour/jiggle/voice knobs, EQ sweeps, scooped mids, boosted mids. 

Your fb wood does nothing but make you feel good. And that’s ok. But there’s no such thing as “snappy” FB tone.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Mathemagician said:


> Fretboards are for looks and don’t affect anything. I mean, it might, but also probably not. Playing high gain metal with Gates, compressors, sweep/contour/jiggle/voice knobs, EQ sweeps, scooped mids, boosted mids.
> 
> Your fb wood does nothing but make you feel good. And that’s ok. But there’s no such thing as “snappy” FB tone.



Your tone comes from your pickups and your rig. The rest is in your fingers.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

There needs to be more painted/colored fretboard options.


----------



## Wuuthrad

budda said:


> I had a 250k in a strat with a JB and it was muted and muffled. 500k and it sounded normal again.





Demiurge said:


> ^Thank you, I'll have to try that.



Well don’t take my word for it. The popular opinion is 500k audio taper for humbuckers and 250k for single coils. 

You may have already had 250K audio, or linear taper. Most humbucker guitars I’ve played have 500k but I also like 250 which is not a very popular opinion.


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> There needs to be more painted/colored fretboard options.



I don’t agree, but this is a good unpopular one. 

Personally I’ve never (yet) seen a dyed board “match” the rest of a guitar well.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> There needs to be more painted/colored fretboard options.


No.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mathemagician said:


> I don’t agree, but this is a good unpopular one.
> 
> Personally I’ve never (yet) seen a dyed board “match” the rest of a guitar well.



Ok but u rong doe


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> No.


Didn't you put some uglass 70s plastic colored knobs on a perfectly nice looking guitar? Boi if you don't....


----------



## Wuuthrad

Mathemagician said:


> Fretboards are for looks and don’t affect anything. I mean, it might, but also probably not. Playing high gain metal with Gates, compressors, sweep/contour/jiggle/voice knobs, EQ sweeps, scooped mids, boosted mids.
> 
> Your fb wood does nothing but make you feel good. And that’s ok. But there’s no such thing as “snappy” FB tone.



It’s more noticeable acoustically, but it does affect tone. Probably not as noticeable, if much at all, depending on how much gain is used. 

Ever played an old celluloid fingerboard banjo, or a paper dulcimer? They sound a whole lot different than their wooden counterparts! 

Obvious there is more to the sound than fingerboard, but it does make a difference. 

Since “tone is in the fingers,” even a pre-conceived difference will affect a guitarist’s playing and tone.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Didn't you put some uglass 70s plastic colored knobs on a perfectly nice looking guitar? Boi if you don't....


I'm not one of your dungeon slaves, bro. Don't get lippy with me.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm not one of your dungeon slaves, bro. Don't get lippy with me.



Facts is facts, henny.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Facts is facts, henny.


Two small knobs aren't as obnoxious as a fretboard painted in some weird color. Frankly, I want a superstrat with ebony or maple fretboard, no binding, Stephens cutaway, and only some oil as a finish.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Two small knobs aren't as obnoxious as a fretboard painted in some weird color. Frankly, I want a superstrat with ebony or maple fretboard, no binding, Stephens cutaway, and only some oil as a finish.


I prefer binding. Why? I have no idea...I think it emphasizes the neck and fretboard and just looks nice. Not having binding isn't a dealbreaker but if I had a choice I'd go with neck and headstock binding....and a colored fretboard if it's a bright color. Otherwise the standard black works


----------



## Adieu

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ok but u rong doe



You kinda proved the point.

These are fuckin hideous.


----------



## USMarine75

Adieu said:


> You kinda proved the point.
> 
> These are fuckin hideous.



I’d rock all of them... and so would this guy:


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


> I’d rock all of them... and so would this guy:
> 
> View attachment 84077



^^^This. When ANY of these dudes in here can match style or ability with Prince I'll listen to what they have to say. Until then..if it's good enough for His Royal Badness...it's certainly good enough for me


----------



## Adieu

USMarine75 said:


> I’d rock all of them... and so would this guy:
> 
> View attachment 84077



I think it's intentionally hideous to make an impression


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I wouldn't rock an outrageous guitar... but that's because I suck. Outrageous or silly looking guitars appear much more badass in the hands of a legend.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

It's showbusiness....outrageousness often helps. 

I'd rather pay to see a spectacle instead of a bunch of guys who look like they haven't washed their asses and clothes play Guitar Center specials.

Gimme some wild shit, especially if you have the personality to back it up. Obviously that kinda gig isn't for everyone so everyone shouldn't do it. But I appreciate those who can


----------



## StevenC

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ^^^This. When ANY of these dudes in here can match style or ability with Prince I'll listen to what they have to say. Until then..if it's good enough for His Royal Badness...it's certainly good enough for me


Prince was also as much of a GASer as anyone on this forum, with taste to back it up.


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ok but u rong doe



The prince guitars and Gibson aren’t dyed wood. That’s literally fine because they aren’t mismatched dyed. And the ESP can stay because pink sparkle. But IMO, would look better with an ebony board and loud pink inlays. 



Spaced Out Ace said:


> Two small knobs aren't as obnoxious as a fretboard painted in some weird color. Frankly, I want a superstrat with ebony or maple fretboard, no binding, Stephens cutaway, and only some oil as a finish.



Stephens cutaways are now one of my favorite things! Yes a really deep cutaway neckthrough like Aristides or the new BCR’s will get the exact same upper fret access. But will it look as cool? I don’t think so.


----------



## Adieu

Wtf is a stevens cutaway?


----------



## rokket2005

It was a neck joint/ extended cutaway that Washburn did. Most famous for being on the Nuno sig.


----------



## USMarine75

Adieu said:


> Wtf is a stevens cutaway?






Made popular by Washburn, especially in the Nuno models.


----------



## Adieu

USMarine75 said:


> View attachment 84107
> 
> 
> Made popular by Washburn, especially in the Nuno models.




Hmmm... sure is ugly. But potentially comfortable I guess?

Is it as stable as a normal bolton?


----------



## Matt08642

Adieu said:


> Hmmm... sure is ugly. But potentially comfortable I guess?
> 
> Is it as stable as a normal bolton?



I can only speak based on playing one in a store, but it felt like a neck thru to me.

I still think the Ibanez AANJ or any of the other brands doing a contoured bolt heel provide more than enough access to where the SEC isn't warranted (personally at least)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Adieu said:


> Is it as stable as a normal bolton?



Rock solid.


----------



## Mathemagician

I have a Nuno model, and as you can see from the image it’s got 5 large bolts just like any other guitar and absolutely doesn’t move. Feels like a neckthrough but with all the tonewood mysticism of a bolt-on.

Scultped heels will do just as well honestly. I just think it’s rad.


----------



## oniduder

There needs to be more guitars with that you goldfish either alive or dead 

plexiglass is the new black


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's showbusiness....outrageousness often helps.
> 
> I'd rather pay to see a spectacle instead of a bunch of guys who look like they haven't washed their asses and clothes play Guitar Center specials.
> 
> Gimme some wild shit, especially if you have the personality to back it up. Obviously that kinda gig isn't for everyone so everyone shouldn't do it. But I appreciate those who can



At the very least, have some charisma. Interact, move around, look like you're having a good time playing your music.

Even if you're playing slow tunes the whole time, approach it with some passion, damn it!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> At the very least, have some charisma. Interact, move around, look like you're having a good time playing your music.
> 
> Even if you're playing slow tunes the whole time, approach it with some passion, damn it!



THIS. I'm tired of seeing some unwashed dude in a dirty Megadeth shirt stare at the floor while he concentrates on getting every note right. Why the hell would I want to pay to see that? Move around, dress cool, have interesting instruments, PERFORM. That's the whole point of a live show. Hell if I just wanted to hear the music I could listen to Spotify and stay the hell home.


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's showbusiness....outrageousness often helps.
> 
> I'd rather pay to see a spectacle instead of a bunch of guys who look like they haven't washed their asses and clothes play Guitar Center specials.
> 
> Gimme some wild shit, especially if you have the personality to back it up. Obviously that kinda gig isn't for everyone so everyone shouldn't do it. But I appreciate those who can



And his Royal Badness favorite axe of all time was just that! He did it both ways! 

https://www.guitarworld.com/features/the-secrets-behind-princes-tone-on-lets-go-crazy


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> View attachment 84136
> 
> 
> And his Royal Badness favorite axe of all time was just that! He did it both ways!
> 
> https://www.guitarworld.com/features/the-secrets-behind-princes-tone-on-lets-go-crazy


Truth. His Hohner Mad Cat is just as pretty as his wild guitars.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

His fender Strat tho.

Sonic blue
Maple board
Flat-mount Floyd Rose
EMG H-S
Dude pretty much spec'd out my dream Strat

EDIT: Was also the Strat he used for THAT performance.


----------



## StevenC

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> His fender Strat tho.
> 
> Sonic blue
> Maple board
> Flat-mount Floyd Rose
> EMG H-S
> Dude pretty much spec'd out my dream Strat
> 
> EDIT: Was also the Strat he used for THAT performance.



I saw him a couple years before he died and while he played the Hohner all night, through a fleet of Boogies, off stage he had a bunch of different candy coloured copies of that guitar. I got a good look during sound check, said Fender on the front, but they definitely said Schecter on the back.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>


I'd probably have a black pickups, knobs, etc. with the white pickguard.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'd probably have a black pickups, knobs, etc. with the white pickguard.


*sighs*


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

StevenC said:


> I saw him a couple years before he died and while he played the Hohner all night, through a fleet of Boogies, off stage he had a bunch of different candy coloured copies of that guitar. I got a good look during sound check, said Fender on the front, but they definitely said Schecter on the back.



He had a close relationship with Schecter. He probably had them do the mods or fix it up.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> He had a close relationship with Schecter. He probably had them do the mods or fix it up.


Yep. When he made runs of his Cloud and Symbol guitar available for sale they were made by Schecter


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yep. When he made runs of his Cloud and Symbol guitar available for sale they were made by Schecter



IIRC he didn't actually authorize them I thought? I recall reading he didn't want Schecter to make his Cloud and Symbol guitars available to the public. It wasn't until after he died, the estate allowed a semi-run of Cloud guitars available direct only from his estate. I CAN be wrong though.

But you are right, the estate made them available through Schecter, given they're the ones that made, and maintained, his more recent cloud/symbol guitars.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> IIRC he didn't actually authorize them I thought? I recall reading he didn't want Schecter to make his Cloud and Symbol guitars available to the public. It wasn't until after he died, the estate allowed a semi-run of Cloud guitars available direct only from his estate. I CAN be wrong though.
> 
> But you are right, the estate made them available through Schecter, given they're the ones that made, and maintained, his more recent cloud/symbol guitars.



They were available long before then. I remember seeing them when he was alive and touring. From what I understand, they were sold through his NPG store and you could get them at his shows, or at least order them. It didn't go on long though before NPG stopped selling them.


----------



## c7spheres

Prince was a great guitar player, no doubt, but like many other greats he seemed to have a pretty messed up life. It's like it comes with the territory in some ways. RIP.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> Prince was a great guitar player, no doubt, but like many other greats he seemed to have a pretty messed up life. It's like it comes with the territory in some ways. RIP.



It didn't seem nearly as crazy or messed up as other people's. From what I could see he was relatively alright besides some life situations and Warner Bros. fucking him over


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> His fender Strat tho.
> 
> Sonic blue
> Maple board
> Flat-mount Floyd Rose
> EMG H-S
> Dude pretty much spec'd out my dream Strat
> 
> EDIT: Was also the Strat he used for THAT performance.



Fender should make more HS Strats like this.


----------



## SexHaver420

24.75 scale guitars sound better tuned down to low tunings like B or A than things with longer scale lengths.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> 24.75 scale guitars sound better tuned down to low tunings like B or A than things with longer scale lengths.


How so?


----------



## SexHaver420

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> How so?



SLUDGE AND BIG RIFFS.

FUZZ.


----------



## Mprinsje

SexHaver420 said:


> 24.75 scale guitars sound better tuned down to low tunings like B or A than things with longer scale lengths.



Ab-so-fucking-lutely.

Love the sound my Les Paul with P90's in Drop F more than i've ever liked any 8 string. If you haven't got that BWAOWWWW when you're hitting that low F i'm not interested.



SexHaver420 said:


> SLUDGE AND BIG RIFFS.
> 
> FUZZ.



YES!


----------



## SexHaver420

Mprinsje said:


> Ab-so-fucking-lutely.
> 
> Love the sound my Les Paul with P90's in Drop F more than i've ever liked any 8 string. If you haven't got that BWAOWWWW when you're hitting that low F i'm not interested.
> 
> 
> 
> YES!



Your band is pretty sick. Keep up the great work.

It reminds me of Amenra but sometimes you play really fast.

It's dope.

Edit: I think I like you guys more than Amenra.


----------



## fps

The ideal metal tone for 80% of Sevenstring involves $10,000 worth of gear being EQ'd to sound like a Roland Micro Cube.


----------



## SexHaver420

fps said:


> The ideal metal tone for 80% of Sevenstring involves $10,000 worth of gear being EQ'd to sound like a Roland Micro Cube.



The majority of posters on this site seem to like metalcore and djent unironically so I don't trust their opinions on gear.

You either die a poser or live long enough to become an elitist.


----------



## Mprinsje

SexHaver420 said:


> Your band is pretty sick. Keep up the great work.
> 
> It reminds me of Amenra but sometimes you play really fast.
> 
> It's dope.
> 
> Edit: I think I like you guys more than Amenra.



Thanks so much, love Amenra so the comparison is very much appreciated!


----------



## StevenC

fps said:


> The ideal metal tone for 80% of Sevenstring involves $10,000 worth of gear being EQ'd to sound like a Roland Micro Cube.


I just got my best tone ever the other day and counting it up came to way more than $10,000!


----------



## vilk

SexHaver420 said:


> SLUDGE AND BIG RIFFS.
> 
> FUZZ.



I play in a band detuned to C standard using a Gibson scale and fuzz. The other guitarist plays a weird Matsumoku factory "Skylark", which I believed was the same scale for years until he told me just a little while ago that it's 25.5"

It's all in your head dude. Yeah, you'll start hearing a real difference at longer scales like 27" or 28" especially clean, but for fuzzed out sludge or doom metal, you can't really hear the difference between 24.75" and 25.5", and especially when considering that different people are going to have totally different string gauge preferences when you start tuning low. 

Not saying that you won't _feel _the difference in your hand! Because I definitely do. But as we all know, how we hear is affected by our preconceived biases.


----------



## gunch

I mean Nile did alright with Gibson scale deans


----------



## vilk

gunch said:


> I mean Nile did alright with Gibson scale deans


Let's not forget Carcass playing Les Pauls as well.


----------



## Matt08642

vilk said:


> Let's not forget Carcass playing Les Pauls as well.



Anything used on the main riff in Embodiment is certified for the heaviest of metal.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> Anything used on the main riff in Embodiment is certified for the heaviest of metal.


I think it was a 5150 and a Guvnor as a boost.


----------



## Matt08642

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think it was a 5150 and a Guvnor as a boost.



_The_ amp.


----------



## Mathemagician

SexHaver420 said:


> The majority of posters on this site seem to like metalcore and djent unironically so I don't trust their opinions on gear.
> 
> You either die a poser or live long enough to become an elitist.



I mean most metalcore was either EMG’s into a 5150(or copy), or some high output passives like Dactivators into a 5150. Then you just steal melodeath riffs. I always unironically defend metalcore.

Unpopular opinion: A lot of people are still chasing that EMG into 5150 sound but want to do it in the most expensive and “original-hipster” way possible.


----------



## Matt08642

Mathemagician said:


> Unpopular opinion: A lot of people are still chasing that EMG into 5150 sound but want to do it in the most expensive and “original-hipster” way possible.



Whenever I see someone talk about Fishmans in to some high gain amp:




Every Fishman DI I've found and played through my 6505 sounds like my EMGs but with extra annoying frequencies I immediately want to EQ out


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Mathemagician said:


> I mean most metalcore was either EMG’s into a 5150(or copy), or some high output passives like Dactivators into a 5150. Then you just steal melodeath riffs. I always unironically defend metalcore.
> 
> Unpopular opinion: A lot of people are still chasing that EMG into 5150 sound but want to do it in the most expensive and “original-hipster” way possible.



"I want a new pickup. I love tones like As I Lay Dying, Rammstein, Killswitch Engage, Zakk Wylde, Cannibal Corpse, Bullet For My Valentine etc."

"Get EMGs."

"But I hate EMGs."


----------



## Matt08642

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "I want a new pickup. I love tones like As I Lay Dying, Rammstein, Killswitch Engage, Zakk Wylde, Cannibal Corpse, Bullet For My Valentine etc."
> 
> "Get EMGs."
> 
> "But I hate EMGs."



eMgS aRe StErIlE!1!!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Matt08642 said:


> eMgS aRe StErIlE!1!!



"I NEED MORE DYNAMICS" says the mallcore kid trying to play either pristine clean or chugging breakdowns with nothing inbetween.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

fps said:


> The ideal metal tone for 80% of Sevenstring involves $10,000 worth of gear being EQ'd to sound like a Roland Micro Cube.





SexHaver420 said:


> The majority of posters on this site seem to like metalcore and djent unironically so I don't trust their opinions on gear.
> 
> You either die a poser or live long enough to become an elitist.


Wooooooooooo these posts right here boi.

FIRE TRUTH.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Increased voltage, NOT cranking the pickup as close as can be to the strings, and not using a TS with an 81 makes for a much better, less sterile EMG tone. Preferred, for me anyways, is 85 and 60A. I think EMG started the "crank it as close to the strings as you can!" thing, but it makes them sound horrid. As for 9v, if you want that compressed thing, then use 9v. If you want increased picking dynamics, use higher voltages to power the pickups (I use the 24v mod thing). If neither of those are your fancy, the X series probably works well.


----------



## Mathemagician

Back in my day 18volt mid was the hip new thing, and EMG’s only came in 3 flavors for humbuckers.

I’m fully expecting my next pickup set to be a 57/66. Been wanting that for a long time.


----------



## efiltsohg

I personally hate playing with EMGs but I agree that they satisfy 80% of "recommend me a pickup" threads


----------



## Emperoff

Mathemagician said:


> Unpopular opinion: A lot of people are still chasing that EMG into 5150 sound but want to do it in the most expensive and “original-hipster” way possible.


----------



## Necky379

Another thread reminded me of this one. Stock Gibson humbuckers are as good as any aftermarket offering.


----------



## Wuuthrad

A Dean ML guitar shape is the most comfortable, ergonomic and balanced guitar shape ever designed, providing a proper natural classical (OG virtuoso) L hand playing position, both seated or standing.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Also...

V necks FTW!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Wuuthrad said:


> A Dean ML guitar shape is the most comfortable, ergonomic and balanced guitar shape ever designed, providing a proper natural classical (OG virtuoso) L hand playing position, both seated or standing.



Explorers are extremely comfortable in my experience. Legit my favorite shape to hold.

Just wish I found one that sounds good.


----------



## SexHaver420

Necky379 said:


> Another thread reminded me of this one. Stock Gibson humbuckers are as good as any aftermarket offering.



Gibson pickups are good. My SG came with 57 classics that I swapped for some humbucker sized p90s. My friend threw them it in his RGA121 I sold to him and it sounds killer. 

They're just not worth the price buying new. You know like everything Gibson makes. 

Also if you buy gear new that isn't custom you're dumb and just wasting money. Used gear is the way.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> A Dean ML guitar shape is the most comfortable, ergonomic and balanced guitar shape ever designed, providing a proper natural classical (OG virtuoso) L hand playing position, both seated or standing.





Wuuthrad said:


> Also...
> 
> V necks FTW!



Boi you betta C'MON with all this truth.

I used to avoid Deans like the plague due to Dime fanbois and those horrid graphic finishes. I tried one of the Dime guitars a friend of mine had, just to see why he liked it and it was THE most comfortable guitar I had ever played in my life. I literally didn't even know that guitars could be that comfortable. I realized in that moment I'd been playing the wrong guitars since the beginning.

When I got back into playing guitar, I put my Dean snobbery aside and got one and I've been using them ever since.


----------



## Necky379

SexHaver420 said:


> Gibson pickups are good. My SG came with 57 classics that I swapped for some humbucker sized p90s. My friend threw them it in his RGA121 I sold to him and it sounds killer.
> 
> They're just not worth the price buying new. You know like everything Gibson makes.
> 
> Also if you buy gear new that isn't custom you're dumb and just wasting money. Used gear is the way.



Yeah that’s true, they are expensive to buy separately.


----------



## Science_Penguin

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "I NEED MORE DYNAMICS" says the mallcore kid trying to play either pristine clean or chugging breakdowns with nothing inbetween.



Mallcore? Hell, most of the actual Metal I listen to doesn't get more dynamic than that, chugging aside.


----------



## Wuuthrad

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Explorers are extremely comfortable in my experience. Legit my favorite shape to hold.
> 
> Just wish I found one that sounds good.



Have you played a Firebird? Basically a rounded explorer, p-90s or mini humbuckers. There was a HP model w/48mm neck, adjustable zero fret titanium nut and some unique full Hummers- Da Bomb Digitty!

Gibson just keeps churning out shit beyond expectations “under the radar” lol, and gets crapped on by haters for their USA prices...

Whatever it’s all guitar- it’s all good! Just have to know where {and when} to look, if you know what you’re looking for that is!

I like ML because it combines the V shape with the upper horn, making seated without strap the ideal playing postion. No footrest, strap, or footstool needed. This kind of shit really adds up “as time go by.”

Maybe sitting in the correct posture is underrated?


----------



## Boofchuck

This may be unpopular, but I really like my sound and how it's evolving.


----------



## Science_Penguin

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "I NEED MORE DYNAMICS" says the mallcore kid trying to play either pristine clean or chugging breakdowns with nothing inbetween.



Mallcore? Hell, most actual Metal bands I know of would be fine with EMGs for how much of the space between clean and high-gain they utilize... And that's assuming they ever play cleans.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Boofchuck said:


> This may be unpopular, but I really like my sound and how it's evolving.


Yep....VERY unpopular


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Explorers are extremely comfortable in my experience. Legit my favorite shape to hold.
> 
> Just wish I found one that sounds good.


I wish I had my LTD FX260 still.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "I NEED MORE DYNAMICS" says the mallcore kid trying to play either pristine clean or chugging breakdowns with nothing inbetween.


Dumb question and bit of a thought I've had in my head for a while, but with EMGs or just pickups in general, wouldn't it make sense to build your tone or a tone rather, around the pickups you're using? Like it would make more sense to me to scale the gain you're using back if you're using a stupidly hot pickup like an EMG or a Super Distortion or whatever to bring out those dynamics the mallcore kid is looking for.

My knowledge in pickups and all that is honestly really horrid, but I feel like this would be an interesting question or topic to bring up here.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> Dumb question and bit of a thought I've had in my head for a while, but with EMGs or just pickups in general, wouldn't it make sense to build your tone or a tone rather, around the pickups you're using? Like it would make more sense to me to scale the gain you're using back if you're using a stupidly hot pickup like an EMG or a Super Distortion or whatever to bring out those dynamics the mallcore kid is looking for.
> 
> My knowledge in pickups and all that is honestly really horrid, but I feel like this would be an interesting question or topic to bring up here.


Build the tone around the amp and speakers/cab.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Increased voltage, NOT cranking the pickup as close as can be to the strings, and not using a TS with an 81 makes for a much better, less sterile EMG tone. Preferred, for me anyways, is 85 and 60A. I think EMG started the "crank it as close to the strings as you can!" thing, but it makes them sound horrid. As for 9v, if you want that compressed thing, then use 9v. If you want increased picking dynamics, use higher voltages to power the pickups (I use the 24v mod thing). If neither of those are your fancy, the X series probably works well.



The problem with increasing the voltage on say, an Emg 81, is that as you increase voltage, you increase headroom, and you lose that desirable clacking picking sound that is achieved by slamming the signal. 

Most metalheads i know at least, stay with the regular 9V, for that quick and compressed attack.


----------



## Seabeast2000

These EMG comments are pretty awesome. NGL, you guys are great.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Science_Penguin said:


> Mallcore? Hell, most of the actual Metal I listen to doesn't get more dynamic than that, chugging aside.



True. It's just funny how I see mostly -core guys that want ALL the dynamics for... just drop C chugging. 



Spaced Out Ace said:


> I wish I had my LTD FX260 still.



I had an Epi Explorer I miss and wish I didn't sell. Just every other Explorer I've tried lacked bite or were dead tonally


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I had an Epi goth explorer...didn't like it. Epi Vs and Explorers feel hollow or something to me. I like the idea of explorers, I love Vs, so the combination in ML form is perfect for me.


----------



## Mathemagician

Wuuthrad said:


> Have you played a Firebird? Basically a rounded explorer, p-90s or mini humbuckers. There was a HP model w/48mm neck, adjustable zero fret titanium nut and some unique full Hummers- Da Bomb Digitty!
> 
> Gibson just keeps churning out shit beyond expectations “under the radar” lol, and gets crapped on by haters for their USA prices...
> 
> Whatever it’s all guitar- it’s all good! Just have to know where {and when} to look, if you know what you’re looking for that is!
> 
> I like ML because it combines the V shape with the upper horn, making seated without strap the ideal playing postion. No footrest, strap, or footstool needed. This kind of shit really adds up “as time go by.”
> 
> Maybe sitting in the correct posture is underrated?



I hate how ML’s look, mainly the headstock, but I always wondered if they’d be comfortable to play seated in classical as they look like they should be.

Firebirds took a while to grow on me, but thanks to Ghost and the RD shape I’m more open to the more Gumby-esque models. 



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> True. It's just funny how I see mostly -core guys that want ALL the dynamics for... just drop C chugging.
> 
> 
> 
> I had an Epi Explorer I miss and wish I didn't sell. Just every other Explorer I've tried lacked bite or were dead tonally



EMG 81’s invented drop-C chugging. It was right after they invented metallica, and amps beyond baby’s first Marshall MG series.


----------



## Boofchuck

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Build the tone around the amp and speakers/cab.


Build the tone around each part of the chain honestly. Some things have a more significant impact of course. Learn the gear.

I've said this before (in this thread probably). Making the most with what you have is crucial.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Build the tone around the amp and speakers/cab.


Oh yeah, that too.


----------



## c7spheres

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> True. It's just funny how I see mostly -core guys that want ALL the dynamics for... just drop C chugging.
> 
> 
> 
> I had an Epi Explorer I miss and wish I didn't sell. Just every other Explorer I've tried lacked bite or were dead tonally



Obvisouly not an Explorer, but I've had a couple freinds with Jackson Kelly's like the one Marty Freidman had (probably a 92 or 94 models) and they were bad ass guitars. One had some type of EMG's not sure about the other one. They felt and sounded great. Maybe check them out.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MASS DEFECT said:


> The problem with increasing the voltage on say, an Emg 81, is that as you increase voltage, you increase headroom, and you lose that desirable clacking picking sound that is achieved by slamming the signal.
> 
> Most metalheads i know at least, stay with the regular 9V, for that quick and compressed attack.


Yeah, well fuck them.


----------



## jarledge

i say fuck the 81 in the bridge, and put your 85 in there. Even putting the 81 in the neck works but the 85 is where it is at for a bridge pickup. It is thicker, and cleans up a little better. I had an 85 bridge with an 89 neck and the splitable 89 was great in the neck position (i know it is a splitable 85 basically) . 

the best all around active set I have tried to date is the seymour duncan livewire dave mustaine set. Which is strange because I am not really that much of a duncan fan or Dave/megadeth fan. Those pickups are the best of passive and active put together. I see them get no love, or mention when it comes to active pickup recommendations and I think they are amazing.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Better yet...fuck EMGs because they sound terrible. There. No voltage mod necessary.


----------



## Metropolis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "I want a new pickup. I love tones like As I Lay Dying, Rammstein, Killswitch Engage, Zakk Wylde, Cannibal Corpse, Bullet For My Valentine etc."
> 
> "Get EMGs."
> 
> "But I hate EMGs."



Because they have no idea how their album tones really are. Same goes with so many other pieces of gear.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Come on guys, keep the EMG hate alive. 

Can't let the supply of used cheap 81s and 85s go dry.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Here's one more EMG-related unpopular opinion.

They don't make every guitar sound the same. Got a guitar that sounds great? They sound great. Got a guitar that sounds ass? They sound ass. I have NO fucking clue how this got started. IME they react about the same as passive pickups when doing pickup swaps.


----------



## The Thing Upstairs

I need to buy a guitar with EMGs....


----------



## Mathemagician

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Here's one more EMG-related unpopular opinion.
> 
> They don't make every guitar sound the same. Got a guitar that sounds great? They sound great. Got a guitar that sounds ass? They sound ass. I have NO fucking clue how this got started. IME they react about the same as passive pickups when doing pickup swaps.



Because they’re great pickups. And they’ve been around so long they’re easy to find/hear on records.
So when people were putting $200 pickups into guitars with random OEM stuff back in the day - arguably the biggest point on the guitar that affects tone - and then their tone noticeably improved people got “too cool for school” about them.

Oh EVERYONE loves Alder/Maple telecasters with single coils and lipstick pickups for a certain specific sound because it’s great? Fuck it, I want to do it with a mahogany 28” 7 string with dual humbuckers and a Kahler trem.

That’ll show ‘em.


----------



## TedEH

I feel like all the hate for EMGs should really be directed at Blackouts. They are the worst pickups I can think of.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TedEH said:


> I feel like all the hate for EMGs should really be directed at Blackouts. They are the worst pickups I can think of.



I never tried them. I remember Blackouts were supposed to be the EMG killers...but EMGs turned me off of actives so hard I never tried any other active pickup


----------



## TedEH

I suppose they're EMG killers in that they out EMG any EMG I've tried in every possible bad way.

I bought a guitar that had blackouts in it, and I suspect that they're the reason the previous owner sold it. I ripped them out immediately and put a JB/59 set in it. For what's supposed to be "boring" pickups, it resulted in what's probably my best sounding guitar.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Okay, one more unpopular opinion because I used to be in this bandwagon;

EMG HZ pickups are actually pretty good.  I bought an HZ4 because me and @Spaced Out Ace talked about them for a bit, installed them in a guitar, and was shocked how much I liked it. I used to own a guitar with them and I hated it, and I thought it sounded better when I replced the pickup. But I guess either my tastes changed or my ear sucked. 

In fact, I just put said H4 in one of my Hagstroms to replace the Black Winter I had in there and I like it more.  The Black Winter was a bit too over the top in the low end, midrange, and output. The H4 lowered the output, leveled out the bass and mids, and even added a bit more bite and tightness.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Pickups are just wire wrapped around a magnet. The idea that some are magically good or bad based on being cheaper or more expensive is just...weird.


----------



## Mathemagician




----------



## c7spheres

TedEH said:


> I feel like all the hate for EMGs should really be directed at Blackouts. They are the worst pickups I can think of.



- That's when I remember all the EMG hate starting. Almost everyone liked EMG's, Blackout's came out and a lot of people started hating on them. Then a few years later Blackout's started getting a lot of hate. 

- This extend's to passives too. The Blaze 7 was incredible and started getting hate when the 707's came out.
- Now with Fishmans it's the same cycle.

- I think it's all a marketing conspiracy and smear campaigns between the big pickup companies. They probably secretly share profits so in the end they all get richer. They're all branches of the same industrial government pickup company and we're all just tools. 
- The next big thing will be the Fishman killers and those will start getting a bunch of hate too. 

- Eventually everything comes full circle and people go back to their EMG's, P90's, JB's, Duncan Distortions etc. there's always that dozen or so models that never go away like the others seem to.


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> - That's when I remember all the EMG hate starting. Almost everyone liked EMG's, Blackout's came out and a lot of people started hating on them. Then a few years later Blackout's started getting a lot of hate.
> 
> - This extend's to passives too. The Blaze 7 was incredible and started getting hate when the 707's came out.


Never heard a bad thing about the Blazes. They are awesome pickups.


----------



## vilk

Maybe this will be unpopular:

Pedals, amps, and cabs affect your sound so drastically, I can hardly believe people are so picky about pickups. Like dude, you already probaby have 2 (maybe 3+ if you stretch the meaning) different EQs hitting your signal after it leaves your guitar. You can't use any of those to compensate for your pickups?*

I used to think pickups were the whole world... back when I was playing directly plugged into the same combo amp for a decade. If you don't want to fuck with pedals or amps or cabs... then yeah, I can definitely admit that a pickup swap is a very effective way to adjust your tone. But if you're someone who's already into various amps pedals and cabs then pickups are like practically the last thing you should be concerned about. Don't get me wrong; I do care about pickups... just after all the other stuff first. 


*barring the most extreme examples. I got issues with my SD Invaders, but I mean those are practically the highest output pickup you can buy. And I also understand the sentiment of wanting to change from singles to hums, p90s, etc. And active vs. passive. But you get the gist of what I'm saying I hope.


----------



## sirbuh

MaxOfMetal said:


> Pickups are just wire wrapped around a magnet. The idea that some are magically good or bad based on being cheaper or more expensive is just...weird.



you just had to bring icp into this


----------



## TedEH

vilk said:


> I can hardly believe people are so picky about pickups


It's been said already, but pickups are a thing that are relatively cheap and easy to change around and experiment with that can potentially have drastic effects on the feel of your rig. Amps and cabs are obviously much more expensive to experiment with, and not everyone collects pedals. Cabs, for all the effect they might have, aren't always an element you're in control of if you're someone who takes part in gear-sharing situations. I'm one of those people who barely uses any pedals - it's just strait into the amp and a delay in the loop sometimes.


----------



## c7spheres

Emperoff said:


> Never heard a bad thing about the Blazes. They are awesome pickups.



People always complained they were too boomy and to much bass in the low end. The same reasons they loved them at first. 
- The real issue is how many people don't understand that pole pieces and pickup height are adjustable.

- Most people just don't know what the heck they're doing or what the gear is really doing and blame it on the gear. We were all there once but some people just don't ever learn or try to learn. They want plug and play and keep throwing money at stuff until they're happy for a while, then change it up again. Like Apple users (as a I duck and run for cover)


----------



## John

Perspective depends on this one regarding being unpopular, but I am not a fan of 22 frets. I'd much prefer having at least 24 frets, especially on LP/singlecut shaped guitars. I'm also not that much of a fan of Tune-o-matic bridges, either.

Also, I'd prefer if ERG's are made more often in other shapes, going past and beyond the ubiquitous strat or super-strat shapes.


----------



## jarledge

MaxOfMetal said:


> Pickups are just wire wrapped around a magnet. The idea that some are magically good or bad based on being cheaper or more expensive is just...weird.



I think that is overly reductionist. 

Yes you are right in principle, however, there are more variables. wire size, wire material, winding method, number of winds, pole piece shape, pole piece material, magnet shape, magnet type, magnetic intensity, placement of magnet relative to pole pieces, potting material, base plate material and I am sure other things. 

cheap pickups may not have the same quality control, may use inconsistent materials and things of that nature to cut costs. One pickup may sound good, but that may or may not be indicative of the next pickup that is suppose to be the same model but sounds very different. ( the inf pickups are a good example, or the epiphone stocks. A few outstanding pickups, and some that sounded like trash but the model of the pickup was suppose to be the same.) 

You pay extra because these companies are taking the time to insure a repeatable product is made. With dimarzio, duncan or emg you can buy the same model over and over and it is going to sound pretty much the same from pickup to pickup because those companies are putting more time and effort in to the process to a make a more consistent pickup with definitive characteristics. 

does that mean spend $500 on a pickup ? nope, it probably isn't worth it. spend 20 on a Chinese made pickup , maybe ... I have done it before and been surprised by the results. I got a strat set for a mexican standard I was going to resale. Spent 40$ for 3 pickups, and they were actually pretty damn good. Sold the guitar and the guy that bought it raved about them. 

My point is, you aren't 100% wrong but not 100% correct in my opinion. Price isn't always indicative of "good" or "bad" but spending a little more gets you a more definitive tonal character that is proven and repeatable.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

jarledge said:


> I think that is overly reductionist.
> 
> Yes you are right in principle, however, there are more variables. wire size, wire material, winding method, number of winds, pole piece shape, pole piece material, magnet shape, magnet type, magnetic intensity, placement of magnet relative to pole pieces, potting material, base plate material and I am sure other things.
> 
> cheap pickups may not have the same quality control, may use inconsistent materials and things of that nature to cut costs. One pickup may sound good, but that may or may not be indicative of the next pickup that is suppose to be the same model but sounds very different. ( the inf pickups are a good example, or the epiphone stocks. A few outstanding pickups, and some that sounded like trash but the model of the pickup was suppose to be the same.)
> 
> You pay extra because these companies are taking the time to insure a repeatable product is made. With dimarzio, duncan or emg you can buy the same model over and over and it is going to sound pretty much the same from pickup to pickup because those companies are putting more time and effort in to the process to a make a more consistent pickup with definitive characteristics.
> 
> does that mean spend $500 on a pickup ? nope, it probably isn't worth it. spend 20 on a Chinese made pickup , maybe ... I have done it before and been surprised by the results. I got a strat set for a mexican standard I was going to resale. Spent 40$ for 3 pickups, and they were actually pretty damn good. Sold the guitar and the guy that bought it raved about them.
> 
> My point is, you aren't 100% wrong but not 100% correct in my opinion. Price isn't always indicative of "good" or "bad" but spending a little more gets you a more definitive tonal character that is proven and repeatable.



Don't get me wrong, I built my own pickups for years, before you could just buy the parts on eBay.

There's definitely something of a science to it, but companies making them OEM have been at it almost as long as the Tier 1 guys, and not only have materials gotten significantly more consistent (and cheaper) but the equipment used to make and perform QA/QC has as well.

Again, there's nothing more complex the fancy boutique guys are doing other than, possibly, a little more trial and error.

But I'm fine with that. Let them make $300 pickups with tribal tattoo etching and hot pink covers, if that makes someone happy, who am I to stop then?


----------



## BenjaminW

Ok I have an opinion that's not EMG-related:

Fender Superstrats (not the HM) are far better looking than the Superstrats that came out of the 80s:


----------



## Matt08642

TedEH said:


> I feel like all the hate for EMGs should really be directed at Blackouts. They are the worst pickups I can think of.



My PRS SE Torero came with EMGs, previous owner put Blackouts in and they were probably the most obnoxious pickups I've ever played. Gain turned to 11, didn't even have the cool EMG buzzsaw sound.

Found a cheap 81/85 set locally (thank you, EMG-hate!) shortly afterwards lol.


----------



## asopala

vilk said:


> Maybe this will be unpopular:
> 
> Pedals, amps, and cabs affect your sound so drastically, I can hardly believe people are so picky about pickups. Like dude, you already probaby have 2 (maybe 3+ if you stretch the meaning) different EQs hitting your signal after it leaves your guitar. You can't use any of those to compensate for your pickups?*
> 
> I used to think pickups were the whole world... back when I was playing directly plugged into the same combo amp for a decade. If you don't want to fuck with pedals or amps or cabs... then yeah, I can definitely admit that a pickup swap is a very effective way to adjust your tone. But if you're someone who's already into various amps pedals and cabs then pickups are like practically the last thing you should be concerned about. Don't get me wrong; I do care about pickups... just after all the other stuff first.
> 
> 
> *barring the most extreme examples. I got issues with my SD Invaders, but I mean those are practically the highest output pickup you can buy. And I also understand the sentiment of wanting to change from singles to hums, p90s, etc. And active vs. passive. But you get the gist of what I'm saying I hope.



Data point of only one, but I had an issue with my set of Nazgul and Sentient pickups in my KM7 having a weird resonant peak at about 2khz, and I also found the single coil sound to be really crappy. Switching them out to a set of Dimarzio Ionizers (this was maybe 4 years ago) ended up solving both those problems. I'd definitely say if you know what you're looking for out of pickups that you're not getting, it's not a bad idea to make the switch, but I agree, a lot more of the tone comes from your amp and cab.

Not to mention out of my 4 guitars that have what I'd consider pretty standard pickups from 4 different brands that came with the guitars, they all sound equally good out of my amp. Slightly different character out of each, but they all do the same thing extremely well for both metal rhythm and leads, along with really glassy cleans on the coil splits. Except for the set of EMGs I have in my 9--909s don't coil split, which sucks.


----------



## asopala

Matt08642 said:


> My PRS SE Torero came with EMGs, previous owner put Blackouts in and they were probably the most obnoxious pickups I've ever played. Gain turned to 11, didn't even have the cool EMG buzzsaw sound.
> 
> Found a cheap 81/85 set locally (thank you, EMG-hate!) shortly afterwards lol.



I must be the only one here who liked my set of Blackouts on a Schecter C1 I had. I did end up selling it, but not for the pickups (neck was a baseball bat to my hands, couldn't deal with it).


----------



## Adieu

asopala said:


> I must be the only one here who liked my set of Blackouts on a Schecter C1 I had. I did end up selling it, but not for the pickups (neck was a baseball bat to my hands, couldn't deal with it).



No, Blackouts are fucking lovely

It's just that Blackout love turned into Fishman love for most metal guitarist gasheads


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Adieu said:


> No, Blackouts are fucking lovely
> 
> It's just that Blackout love turned into Fishman love for most metal guitarist gasheads



I don't know, the Blackout hype died like a decade before Fluences came out. 

I remember all the manufacturers scrambling to use them, especially Schecter, but even they aren't selling them stock anymore. Plenty of EMG and SD stuff, just no Blackouts.

It's like one day everyone just hated them. Even Agile stopped using them.


----------



## Jon Pearson

The other guitarist in my band just got a new Schecter with Fluence Moderns. I almost laughed when I plugged it in - they sound like EMGs. All the hype, all the raving, for another set of EMG pickups. I don't what I was expecting, but it was certainly something a _little _different.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jon Pearson said:


> The other guitarist in my band just got a new Schecter with Fluence Moderns. I almost laughed when I plugged it in - they sound like EMGs. All the hype, all the raving, for another set of EMG pickups. I don't what I was expecting, but it was certainly something a _little _different.



I thought the appeal was that they are EMGs, just with a button that makes them sound like something else also. All the early marketing materials went on about them being multiple pickups in one.


----------



## Jon Pearson

MaxOfMetal said:


> I thought the appeal was that they are EMGs, just with a button that makes them sound like something else also. All the early marketing materials went on about them being multiple pickups in one.



I've heard some folks talk about how they are "more dynamic" and all the normal stuff you hear about the new flavor-of-the-month pickup. As far as the voicing thing, on her guitar, it seems there's a shift in the mids between the voicings, but the core sound is very much the same, so much so that at drum volume it's hard to tell what even changed.


----------



## jarledge

Jon Pearson said:


> The other guitarist in my band just got a new Schecter with Fluence Moderns. I almost laughed when I plugged it in - they sound like EMGs. All the hype, all the raving, for another set of EMG pickups. I don't what I was expecting, but it was certainly something a _little _different.



i am always kinda wary of the hype. I find some stuff genuinely good but some is just hype. I have yet to try the fishmans for any length of time. I have played them in a couple of guitars at a guitar center but that really isn't a fair gauge. Initial impressions were they were similar sounding but i'd want to try them out through my own stuff before calling them knockoffs.

As i said in one of my earlier posts, guitarists are constantly being sold on stuff and the hype makes you think it is better than it actually is. Confirmation bias is totally a thing and that is why i tried to quit asking opinions on subjective things. If you bought something you are probably going to tell me it is better than it actually objectively is because you are seeking to justify your purchase.


----------



## SexHaver420

The Parker Fly has the best trem of all time. Good Fender style ones are the second best. Kahlers and the good Ibanez trems are also better than Floyds.

I'm never going to own a guitar with a locking trem because they take more than 2 minutes to restring but they're fun to play and mess around with.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Personally, pickups are pickups. Some just cater to your ears a bit more but in the bigger scheme of things nobody is gonna hear it but you. The only reason I'm buying Black Winters is because the pickups I have now are a little "dry" to me. In recordings they sound fine and you'd never hear the thing I don't like, but I hear it. Not to mention BWs apparently sound great split and a single coil setup in the neck is what I'm after.

I'm not expecting them to revolutionize my tone...just to fix that one problem while sounding good and being decent quality. I think if people just bought pickups based on what they really want in a practical setting they'd be a lot better off. My other guitar's stock pickups are just fine even though I'll be putting in a split coil system in that one too because it's my Floyd guitar.


----------



## Gmork

Unpopular opinion: i think the lace x-bar set were pretty cool, sounded good! Clear, and had their own thing going on.


----------



## Aliascent

BenjaminW said:


> Ok I have an opinion that's not EMG-related:
> 
> Fender Superstrats (not the HM) are far better looking than the Superstrats that came out of the 80s:
> View attachment 84216



Looks good but it has the wrong pickup configuration.
Any pickup configuration that is more than two letters is wrong, and any 3 letters configuration that includes a S in the middle is double wrong.

Also I love Fender, but I still think they have the ugliest headstocks on the market, ex aequo with harley benton.


----------



## TedEH

If Fishmans are anything like Blackouts, that's a huge turn off. I've been curious about them, but have no interest in something blackout-esque.


----------



## Adieu

Jon Pearson said:


> The other guitarist in my band just got a new Schecter with Fluence Moderns. I almost laughed when I plugged it in - they sound like EMGs. All the hype, all the raving, for another set of EMG pickups. I don't what I was expecting, but it was certainly something a _little _different.



They're like EMGS, but better

That's the whole selling point. Who doesn't want better EMGs???


----------



## technomancer

Given the way guitarists complain about having a lot of options or more options being available (knobs, switches, pedals, pickups, parameters on devices, etc etc etc), the incidence of ADD and ADHD in guitarists is at least 1000x that of the normal population.

I actually saw somebody complaining because Ceriatone came out with a Plexi-style amp that has switches to let you got through the changes that were made to the design over the years.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Oddly, I tried BW's because I was looking for something I'd be happy with long-term. Didn't have the cycles or logistics for frequent swaps. So far so good. Do I know what I'm missing? Not exactly. I'm OK with that.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Adieu said:


> They're like EMGS, but better
> 
> That's the whole selling point. Who doesn't want better EMGs???



Better in the same way that a Crunch Lab is a better D Sonic...


----------



## Shask

I would say that anyone could work with any decent pickup.


----------



## BenjaminW

Aliascent said:


> I love Fender, but I still think they have the ugliest headstocks on the market, ex aequo with harley benton.


Damn that is one quite unpopular opinion. Ugliest headstocks in my opinion go to Heritage and these Gibson headstocks:


----------



## StevenC

BenjaminW said:


> Damn that is one quite unpopular opinion. Ugliest headstocks in my opinion go to Heritage and these Gibson headstocks:
> View attachment 84228


The Pat Martino headstock is super cool, what are you talking about?


----------



## laxu

technomancer said:


> Given the way guitarists complain about having a lot of options or more options being available (knobs, switches, pedals, pickups, parameters on devices, etc etc etc), the incidence of ADD and ADHD in guitarists is at least 1000x that of the normal population.
> 
> I actually saw somebody complaining because Ceriatone came out with a Plexi-style amp that has switches to let you got through the changes that were made to the design over the years.



There will always be purists who complain if something has more than one or two knobs. Then they throw a full pedalboard of solid-state pedals in front of it and wax lyrical about their pure tube tone.


----------



## BenjaminW

StevenC said:


> The Pat Martino headstock is super cool, what are you talking about?


It fits the Pat Martino guitar really well, but it looks awful to me on like a Les Paul or an SG.


----------



## Boofchuck

I just realized I compulsively check this thread more than I check social media.


----------



## BenjaminW

Boofchuck said:


> I just realized I compulsively check this thread more than I check social media.


That’s because all my opinions are great and make people wanna come back and read them!

But for real though, this thread is probably the most interesting thread on this forum.


----------



## Science_Penguin

BenjaminW said:


> That’s because all my opinions are great and make people wanna come back and read them!
> 
> But for real though, this thread is probably the most interesting thread on this forum.



It's perfect, cause everybody loved the unpopular opinions thread until it got into sociopolitical issues and just kind of made everyone hate each other.

Now we've got it hyperfocused on gear, and I don't care how wrong y'alls opinions on Djent tone are, I'm not going to hate you on a personal level for it!


----------



## BenjaminW

Science_Penguin said:


> It's perfect, cause everybody loved the unpopular opinions thread until it got into sociopolitical issues and just kind of made everyone hate each other.
> 
> Now we've got it hyperfocused on gear, and I don't care how wrong y'alls opinions on Djent tone are, I'm not going to hate you on a personal level for it!


I thought for a minute that it would be interesting to see like an unpopular political opinions thread, but that shit would go down the drain as soon as it was posted.

Because it's focused on gear and not just random opinions like if coffee tastes better than tea, I feel like I've been able to learn a lot from here and find people here who have the same opinion as me when it comes to pieces of gear or if tones from certain albums sound better than other albums and what not.


----------



## Science_Penguin

BenjaminW said:


> I thought for a minute that it would be interesting to see like an unpopular political opinions thread, but that shit would go down the drain as soon as it was posted.
> 
> Because it's focused on gear and not just random opinions like if coffee tastes better than tea, I feel like I've been able to learn a lot from here and find people here who have the same opinion as me when it comes to pieces of gear or if tones from certain albums sound better than other albums and what not.



I think someone tried once and it lasted maybe five posts before it was nuked.

Yeah, I really enjoy the discourse here. It's made me reevaluate some of my views on gear and see which ones stand up to scrutiny.


----------



## c7spheres

BenjaminW said:


> ..... random opinions like if coffee tastes better than tea,



Drink choice is gear for sure. Unsweetened Matcha tea is better than coffee and other teas, but Coke and milk shakes are better than both. : )


----------



## BenjaminW

c7spheres said:


> Drink choice is gear for sure. Unsweetened Matcha tea is better than coffee and other teas, but Coke and milk shakes are better than both. : )


I feel like dark coffee has a much richer tone than white coffee. Really brings out those dynamics that 12 EMG stans seem to rave about.


----------



## Science_Penguin

c7spheres said:


> Drink choice is gear for sure. Unsweetened Matcha tea is better than coffee and other teas, but Coke and milk shakes are better than both. : )









Almost never play a show without it!


----------



## c7spheres

BenjaminW said:


> I feel like dark coffee has a much richer tone than white coffee. Really brings out those dynamics that 12 EMG stans seem to rave about.


 I agree, Much richer and darker tone. Not a fan of cream or sugar with my tone coffee. Much better raw for that full bodied tone. : )



Science_Penguin said:


> Almost never play a show without it!



For that vintage golden tone with crisp flowery high-mids! : )


----------



## Science_Penguin

Trouble is, booze is the one piece of gear I HAVE to get from somebody else the night of the show. I get weird looks from the staff if I bring my own


----------



## TedEH

Science_Penguin said:


> I think someone tried once and it lasted maybe five posts before it was nuked.


There was a generic unpopular opinions thread for a quite a while before it got shut down. It was.... a very active thread.

But, getting back to the bad gear takes:
Did we do the thin pick thing yet? 'Cause thin picks are better than other picks. If your pick is more than 1mm thick, that's not a pick, you might as well scrape a brick across your strings.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

I cooked up a doozy for y’all.

Gear acquisition is a consumerist obsession ultimately fueled by the emasculation men suffer at the hands of capitalism and patriarchy. Gear forums primarily exist as a stage to convince oneself in front of an audience that the piece of gear they’ve lusted after is worth what it cost them and that it makes them happy, when in reality it is neither proportional in quality to its cost nor does it ultimately bring any more happiness. In many cases it is an impediment to true creativity and self expression. The idea of more, shinier tools being a source of inspiration is so bassackwards from the general human experience of creativity, the most brilliant and emotionally vulnerable art comes from people working with that they’ve got and pushing that to its absolute limits and beyond. Then after the fact whatever they did is commodified and marketed as a compensatory dick metaphor with a signature airbrushed on it. The absolute maximum potential of an individual under this is to be a second rate copy of a copy of their idol.

Amps and guitars are the cowboy boots and lifted pickup trucks of the musician world.


----------



## TedEH

I've said it before and I'll say it again: A person is not their stuff.

I don't feel like picking apart everything in there despite disagreeing with almost the whole thing, since it would be against the spirit of an unpopular opinion thread, but maybe instead I'll use it as a springboard for my own potentially unpopular points:


wheresthefbomb said:


> the most brilliant and emotionally vulnerable art comes from


Art doesn't have to be emotionally (or otherwise) vulnerable to be good or "art". I don't care if you learned guitar yesterday, only know 2 chords, and just release variations of those two chords played over backing tracks made of your own recorded farts - if you feel good expressing it (lol for the extra fart pun potential there), then all the power to you.



wheresthefbomb said:


> The absolute maximum potential of an individual under this is to be a second rate copy of a copy of their idol.


Idols are kind of a dumb idea anyway. "Famous" people are just regular people that you happen to know about and they don't really deserve to be treated like they're special or like their shit doesn't stink (see the Wintersun thread for lolz).

At the end of the day, if a person is happy getting wrapped up in a dumb hobby for dumb reasons, that their business. Life is hard enough as it is without people shitting on you for having a hobby the wrong way.


----------



## rokket2005

If people start putting truck nuts on their guitars I'm offing myself.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> Damn that is one quite unpopular opinion. Ugliest headstocks in my opinion go to Heritage and these Gibson headstocks:
> View attachment 84228


Who gives a shit? There isn't a break angle (well, there isn't one like the LP headstock), and thus, better tuning stability.


----------



## TedEH

Maybe elaborate inlays are the truck nuts of the guitar world.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

TedEH said:


> Art doesn't have to be emotionally (or otherwise) vulnerable to be good or "art". I don't care if you learned guitar yesterday, only know 2 chords, and just release variations of those two chords played over backing tracks made of your own recorded farts - if you feel good expressing it (lol for the extra fart pun potential there), then all the power to you.



I didn’t make that assertion, but would like to point out that what you described here is at the very core of vulnerability: uninhibited self-expression. 

I believe that art is always vulnerable, but it’s a side effect rather than a requirement. The vulnerability is what we relate to.

I’m not saying not to go buy gear and enjoy it. I *am* saying that it behooves us all to check our motivations because we are susceptible to all kinds of bullshit, and what we think will make us happy and what actually makes us happy are very often not the same. 


After all, I’m posting on a gear forum too, so obviously I’m participating in what I’m describing. We’re all down in it.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Are there people out there who _honestly buy_ shit because they think it will make them happy? I buy lots of shit that I don't need, and never really because I think it will make me "happy."

I buy shit because it does something neat, it looks neat, etc. It's just a way to pass the time between now and when I croak. I think most adults who spend lots of money on hobbies would come up with a similar conclusion given a few minutes of honest analysis. It's an irrational behavior, but that's most of day-to-day human existence.

I like writing music, I like performing it, but in all honesty that's a completely unrelated hobby to me accumulating neat shit.


----------



## Demiurge

^Daytime guitar purchases are for utility and enjoyment. Late night $22 pedals on Amazon are specifically to briefly fill the emptiness inside.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Demiurge said:


> ^Daytime guitar purchases are for utility and enjoyment. Late night $22 pedals on Amazon are specifically to briefly fill the emptiness inside.



Truth. This is why literally all my my purchases are done at night.


----------



## Jon Pearson

When I'm on business trips and I'm hammered beyond belief late in the evening, rather than fall down the pit of despair, I buy another amp.


----------



## WarMachine

BenjaminW said:


> Damn that is one quite unpopular opinion. Ugliest headstocks in my opinion go to Heritage and these Gibson headstocks:
> View attachment 84228


Don't know, those Samik headstocks are pretty gross too.


----------



## BornToLooze

Jon Pearson said:


> Are there people out there who _honestly buy_ shit because they think it will make them happy? I buy lots of shit that I don't need, and never really because I think it will make me "happy."
> 
> I buy shit because it does something neat, it looks neat, etc. It's just a way to pass the time between now and when I croak. I think most adults who spend lots of money on hobbies would come up with a similar conclusion given a few minutes of honest analysis. It's an irrational behavior, but that's most of day-to-day human existence.
> 
> I like writing music, I like performing it, but in all honesty that's a completely unrelated hobby to me accumulating neat shit.



I bought this because I destroyed my first guitar trying to make it look like it.


----------



## Mathemagician

TedEH said:


> There was a generic unpopular opinions thread for a quite a while before it got shut down. It was.... a very active thread.
> 
> But, getting back to the bad gear takes:
> Did we do the thin pick thing yet? 'Cause thin picks are better than other picks. If your pick is more than 1mm thick, that's not a pick, you might as well scrape a brick across your strings.



HOW can anyone play with thin picks? Namely down picking. But also alternate picking. It bends when I pick and I don’t hold my pick vertical anymore. So idk how anyone it using these. Almost feels like notes lag when they get floppy. The sweet spot is around 1.25 though, so I’m not suggesting using a doorstop either. 



wheresthefbomb said:


> I cooked up a doozy for y’all.
> 
> Gear acquisition is a consumerist obsession ultimately fueled by the emasculation men suffer at the hands of capitalism and patriarchy. Gear forums primarily exist as a stage to convince oneself in front of an audience that the piece of gear they’ve lusted after is worth what it cost them and that it makes them happy, when in reality it is neither proportional in quality to its cost nor does it ultimately bring any more happiness. In many cases it is an impediment to true creativity and self expression. The idea of more, shinier tools being a source of inspiration is so bassackwards from the general human experience of creativity, the most brilliant and emotionally vulnerable art comes from people working with that they’ve got and pushing that to its absolute limits and beyond. Then after the fact whatever they did is commodified and marketed as a compensatory dick metaphor with a signature airbrushed on it. The absolute maximum potential of an individual under this is to be a second rate copy of a copy of their idol.
> 
> Amps and guitars are the cowboy boots and lifted pickup trucks of the musician world.



I like da chug. 



TedEH said:


> Maybe elaborate inlays are the truck nuts of the guitar world.



Maybe the true truck nuts were the friends we made along the way.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Who gives a shit? There isn't a break angle (well, there isn't one like the LP headstock), and thus, better tuning stability.


shh it’s all about the a e s t h e t i c


----------



## vilk

Mathemagician said:


> HOW can anyone play with thin picks? Namely down picking. But also alternate picking. It bends when I pick and I don’t hold my pick vertical anymore. So idk how anyone it using these. Almost feels like notes lag when they get floppy. The sweet spot is around 1.25 though, so I’m not suggesting using a doorstop either.



You (and by you I mean me) can adapt pretty quick. Over the years I have gone through phases of alternating between two extremes, 3mm and 0.5-0.6mm. Why? I'm convinced that thin picks sound better. You're right, they aren't as controllable as thicker picks, and that's why ultimately I'm back to using 3mm, but I admit that I am sacrificing a bit of tone for the control.

_Having said that _if you're not playing any crazy guitar solos or extreme riffage, you'll get by just fine with a thin pick, and you'll sound better, too. And when it comes to a music that is all strumming with the right hand, I find thin picks are actually _easier_ to use than thick picks.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Mathemagician said:


> HOW can anyone play with thin picks? Namely down picking. But also alternate picking. It bends when I pick and I don’t hold my pick vertical anymore. So idk how anyone it using these. Almost feels like notes lag when they get floppy. The sweet spot is around 1.25 though, so I’m not suggesting using a doorstop either.



Well, I use .60mm nylon picks, so flimsy even as flimsy goes, and the reason I do that is because I play a lot of rhythm. When I strum, depending on the song, I lay into the strings pretty hard, so I need a pick with give.

As to how I play leads with it... Well, the above issue is what got me used to them so, I learned how they feel and how to tame the flimsiness enough to make it work. Gives my solos a bit of character, though.


----------



## FILTHnFEAR

Pick thickness depends on what I'm playing. 

Heavy rhythm stuff I need a 1.5mm. I can't stand much give/floppiness.

Clean tone, especially strumming and I'll drop it down to a .88mm or .73mm.


----------



## BenjaminW

I used to use yellow Tortex picks mainly because I thought the yellow looked cool.

Ever since I switched to Jazz IIIs, I have no clue how I ever played with picks that big. 

I honestly have no clue how some guys play with like .50 picks or however thick the red Tortexes are because I feel like I don’t have a whole lot of control over them when I play because of how thin they are.


----------



## Wuuthrad

This may in fact not be an unpopular opinion, but guitar picks are quite diversely popular!

With that said, I offer a potentially unpopular opinion. I think the fender single coil, or any single coil that isn’t a p-90 is an awful pickup design that too easily destroys eardrums.


----------



## Necky379

I enjoy my hobby. The hate comes from a different perspective on the same outcome, we’re both going to buy it and justify it differently. Played live once, don’t care about how anyone feels about that. If it wasn’t an obscure musical possession it’d be another. A car, an autograph, a novelty of some sort. I use whatever I spend my money on and I share with people that can’t get it. I appreciate the fact that I can choose between pick gauge and different flavors of SLO circuits. How else do you justify working overtime?

I’m saying this with different wording:


Jon Pearson said:


> Are there people out there who _honestly buy_ shit because they think it will make them happy? I buy lots of shit that I don't need, and never really because I think it will make me "happy."
> 
> I buy shit because it does something neat, it looks neat, etc. It's just a way to pass the time between now and when I croak. I think most adults who spend lots of money on hobbies would come up with a similar conclusion given a few minutes of honest analysis. It's an irrational behavior, but that's most of day-to-day human existence.
> 
> I like writing music, I like performing it, but in all honesty that's a completely unrelated hobby to me accumulating neat shit.



Love that quote and riffing with cool gear, it genuinely makes me happy. 

I think this thread sums up the majority of this forum’s goals, my unpopular opinion, experience sound.


----------



## Necky379

Also unpopular opinion, Cobra > Recto and Peavey pickups were the best Wolfgang versions.


----------



## TedEH

wheresthefbomb said:


> I didn’t make that assertion


Well, you were just about to do it anyway:


wheresthefbomb said:


> I believe that art is always vulnerable





wheresthefbomb said:


> The vulnerability is what we relate to


It wasn't my intent to suggest that was what you were getting at, so much as just to springboard into an tangentially related thing.

That being said, I disagree 100% that art is always anything. Art is not always relatable. Art is not always vulnerable. Art is not always even recognizable as art. I mean, the only consistent way we ever describe art is that we can't properly describe or define it - and I think that's part of the beauty of it. It's one of the few things that can literally be whatever you want it to be, and I have zero interest in limiting or gatekeeping it. I'll conceded to anyone their own "I experience art this way" kind of ideas, because why wouldn't I - I'm onboard with the idea that "art to me is always vulnerable" or "my art is always vulnerable", but not "all art for everyone needs to be."


----------



## Jon Pearson

I'd be willing to say that if you added some qualifiers on there, I start to agree more - maybe _great _art is always vulnerable, maybe _emotionally moving _art is always vulnerable, but then that depends on how liberal you are with your definition of art. 

Does any artistic pursuit at its conclusion yield _art? _Or does art mean something more? I'd like to think that there is a general sense among people that there is a difference between, say, a guitarist running through scales and a great composer moving you to tears, that we could draw that line in a broad stroke. Where it might get trickier is when we hone in a bit - is a Pepsi jingle art? And if so, why?

Enough rambling - Jazz IIIs are dumb. There we go.


----------



## TedEH

I'm only being a nitpicky asshole because it's early in the morning and I have nothing better to do:



Jon Pearson said:


> that depends on how liberal you are with your definition of art


Very. 
If we must define it -> I think of art as being less about the product and more about the intent and experience. Art is anything intended as, or experienced as, art. Art is such a vague concept that you can't encapsulate it much farther than just saying that it's the word we use for the subjective elements of any expression or experience. "This landscape is art to me." "I build decks for a living, that's my art." "He chooses his words artfully when he speaks." "Maybe to you, this is just a bad painting of a square, but someone thought this was good enough art to spend millions on it." If you watch someone leave their house to go to work, and enjoy something about their gait, and it reads to you like a tiny unintentional dance - still art. All of it.



Jon Pearson said:


> Does any artistic pursuit at its conclusion yield _art?_


If it yields anything at all, then yes.



Jon Pearson said:


> Or does art mean something more?


In absolute terms no, but subjectively yes if the artist or observer decide that it's the case.



Jon Pearson said:


> I'd like to think that there is a general sense among people that there is a difference between, say, a guitarist running through scales and a great composer moving you to tears


I think the average person would recognize a difference, but that difference is not between art and not-art. Once again, there's is no requirement that art being moving.



Jon Pearson said:


> is a Pepsi jingle art?


Yes.



Jon Pearson said:


> And if so, why?


Because someone expressed or experienced it as such.



Jon Pearson said:


> Jazz IIIs are dumb


But are Jazz IIIs art?


----------



## Jon Pearson

TedEH said:


> But are Jazz IIIs art?



If Jazz IIIs are art, then we must live in a dead era, devoid of any semblance of the transcendent - a cold, painful world, a cruel world, where the spirits of men are used as fuel for the great machine, ever consuming. 








But naw they aren't that bad, I like my classic tortex sharps better though.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Dunlop Stubby picks don't get enough love.


----------



## Jon Pearson

MaxOfMetal said:


> Dunlop Stubby picks don't get enough love.



Dude, stubbys are the shit.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jon Pearson said:


> Dude, stubbys are the shit.



For real.

I used to buy all kinds of picks (Gravity makes great ones, by the way), but I'm just as happy grabbing a bag of red and purple Stubbies once a year.


----------



## Jon Pearson

MaxOfMetal said:


> For real.
> 
> I used to buy all kinds of picks (Gravity makes great ones, by the way), but I'm just as happy grabbing a bag of red and purple Stubbies once a year.



Totally agreed. The purple 2.0 and 3.0 are my jam for the super shreddy stuff. They give me the beve I loved about the gator grips but are just better in every way.


----------



## TedEH

Jon Pearson said:


> If Jazz IIIs are art, then we must live in a dead era, devoid of any semblance of the transcendent - a cold, painful world, a cruel world


I mean.... yeah, basically.


----------



## Jon Pearson

I needed this thread this morning


----------



## TedEH

The best threads are the ones that go from amp models to the meaninglessness of the known universe within a page or two.


----------



## Boofchuck




----------



## budda

Great, now I will hate the word "art" for the rest of the day.


----------



## efiltsohg

Necky379 said:


> Peavey pickups were the best Wolfgang versions.



this is just objectively true


----------



## Emperoff

I don't know if people usually do this but I actually use three different picks depending of what I play.

- 1,38mm Jazz IIIs (carbon fiber) for practicing, studio work, jamming, etc.
- 1mm Dunlop MaxGrip for strummy and softer stuff (folk, soft rock, pop, latin, etc).
- 1,5mm Dunlop Flow for Rock/metal live shows.

The latter two are meant so I don't desintegrate my fingers live.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> Dunlop Stubby picks don't get enough love.


I really like playing with them, but I will turn one into powder in about an hour and a half. The big stubby is actually how I ended up with Winspears. Loved the feel of a big-ass pick, hated the material and how fast they fell apart.


----------



## Mathemagician

I use the Dunlop Jazz 3 XL (the superior Jazz 3 shape) of the primetone material because it has the grip surface carved into it. It has a minor bevel carved into it, but it’s really the shape/size and GRIP that I’m most concerned with. 

I’ve changed how I hold a pick 3 times now and I’m finding that almost all picks move and slide around to the point where I’d considered buying skateboard grip tape prior to finding these. 

Pricy and no on carries the 1.4 size so I have to order from Dunlop’s website.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I just use generic Tortex yellow and green picks. They work just fine.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I just use generic Tortex yellow and green picks. They work just fine.



I actually use these quite a bit too, though I prefer the sharp ones. They are like home base for me when I get worn out on other picks


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

MaxOfMetal said:


> Dunlop Stubby picks don't get enough love.



Preach!

Been a Big Stubby 2.0 user for as long as I can remember and start missing it whenever I use anything else.

I briefly flirted with the red Stubbys 1.0 but went right back to 2.0s when I started breaking them.


----------



## Adieu

Are there more sizes now? I remember having the HUUUGE purple ones for bass and wondering wth there weren't any in guitar-friendly sizes


----------



## TedEH

I've been using the Pitch Black Jazz III .6mm and sometimes the .73mm.


----------



## efiltsohg

I haven't touched a pick other than a nylon jazz III in over a decade


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Dunlop Max-Grip 1.14 is what works for me


----------



## Seabeast2000

I go back to Dava grips often.


----------



## Choop

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I just use generic Tortex yellow and green picks. They work just fine.



I've experimented with several different types of picks after using the green .88 Tortex picks for years and years. I got a set that are the same size and shape as Jazz III--they're ok for lead work but I've really been thinking lately to just go back to the tried and true green .88 Tortex.


----------



## Matt08642

Been using these lately:




Just the right shape for me to where it doesn't feel clunky, and most importantly if I don't have any available for some reason it's not too far off from a normal pick so I can just adapt to something with a more standard shape.

I found that was an issue when I got used to super thick or weirdly shaped picks. As soon as I didn't have one I had to spend way longer re-acclimating.


----------



## rokket2005

I've been changing picks every couple years since I started basically. Used the Cool picks juratex jazz heavies for a few years, then the snarling dogs brain heavies, then v picks screamers, then gravity 3mm mini stealths, and now I'm in the winspear gold 3mm shuriken minis. I used to have probably 2000 random Dunlop/clayton picks in a gallon Ziploc bag, but I gave it away when I sold something on Craigslist a couple years ago


----------



## Shask

I recently bought a bunch of picks, and the JP Jazz IIIs are the ones I am favoring at the moment.


----------



## BenjaminW

I know picks have been the main topic here for a while, but I got an opinion that's not pick related unfortunately.

The tone(s) Steve Lukather got on The Seventh One and Kingdom of Desire fucking slaps so hard.


----------



## Vletrmx

Speaking of unpopular opinions, I don't think a sharp tip on a pick is necessary at all for leads/riffs. I used to exclusively use Jazz IIIs but within the last few years I just use regular Tortex .73/.88 mm and haven't noticed any downsides.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Vletrmx said:


> Speaking of unpopular opinions, I don't think a sharp tip on a pick is necessary at all for leads/riffs. I used to exclusively use Jazz IIIs but within the last few years I just use regular Tortex .73/.88 mm and haven't noticed any downsides.



I find it's less of a playing thing and more of a tonal thing. The sharper a pick, the brighter, more aggressive the sound. I wish I could get used to super-sharp picks because goddamn I love the sound.


----------



## oniduder

This is not a pick
(Insert a pic of a pick)

I am very fond of the jp jazz iii


----------



## Science_Penguin

MaxOfMetal said:


> Dunlop Stubby picks don't get enough love.



Those are nice picks. Slippery little buggers though, I distinctly remember falling in love with them one winter and never being able to keep a grip on them that following summer


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Science_Penguin said:


> Those are nice picks. Slippery little buggers though, I distinctly remember falling in love with them one winter and never being able to keep a grip on them that following summer



My hands have calluses like 180 grit, so I've never noticed.


----------



## WarMachine

1.14mm Tortex picks with the non-printed side scored with a knife for even better grip for me. Been using these/doing the scoring thing for the last 15+ years.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I find it's less of a playing thing and more of a tonal thing. The sharper a pick, the brighter, more aggressive the sound. I wish I could get used to super-sharp picks because goddamn I love the sound.



I was using Jazz-type picks and regular-shaped Tortex/Delrin/Nylon/Ultex picks for years before I tried the Tortex Sharp models. I love, love, love the sound of them, so I just sort of forced myself to get used to how they feel. It took some time to adjust to, but I haven't used anything else for 6 or 7 years now. At this point, any other kind of pick feels like playing with a checker piece to me


----------



## Vyn

Another +1 for Tortex Sharps. I go between the 1.35mm and 1.5mm ones, most of the time 1.5mm. Best thing I did for my playing, cleaned it right the fuck up. They aren't forgiving at all and mistakes stand out like dog's balls.


----------



## diagrammatiks

my favorite pick right now is the Ibanez jtc. 
cheapish. 
actually like it better then my winspears.


----------



## USMarine75

Jon Pearson said:


> When I'm on business trips and I'm hammered beyond belief late in the evening, rather than fall down the pit of despair, I buy another amp.



Yup.

I made a drunken purchase of a $3500 Mayones custom from Nick at 2am while on a work trip.



Necky379 said:


> Also unpopular opinion, Cobra > Recto and Peavey pickups were the best Wolfgang versions.



^ this. 

Although I had both and ended up keeping the Dragon. Preferred the tone and less bass. The Cobra was definitely like a Recto but I could never dial out enough bass.


----------



## Necky379

That’s why people suggest greenbacks with Cobras. Maybe unpopular, maybe not but I think people have an idea about what greenbacks sound like and don’t have firsthand experience with them. They’re bright, have a lot of upper mids and mid mids. Cutting presence, sharp sounding speakers especially at low volume. Really not a lot of low end. They change when you hit them with volume and low end (think JTM45 on 11). They compress with volume and it smooths them out, it’s like two different speakers. They don’t add a lot of low end but they also don’t turn to shit when you hit them with low end. The Utahs I’ve used in a Fender are a great example of a fantastic sounding speaker that can’t handle lows, they sound terrible and fart if you overdo it. I’ve yet to get farts out of my greenback cab, it’s easy to get with the Utah’s. I haven’t tried the Cobra with a G12T yet but I want to see how that goes soon, lots of experience with it going through G12M’s at this point though. The huge low end of the Cobra makes sense through greenies.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Did I mention this already?

Don't bother paying for amp sims...the free ones do the same shit.

Recently tried the Mercuriall ReAxis, the Brainworx Smolski Engl and Friedman, and the Neural DSP Omega ...my free plugins sound just as good if not better.

The only ones that really impressed me are the Brainworx Diezels and even those don't impress me enough to spend 300 bucks on them.

Money =/= tone


----------



## Metropolis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Did I mention this already?
> 
> Don't bother paying for amp sims...the free ones do the same shit.
> 
> Recently tried the Mercuriall ReAxis, the Brainworx Smolski Engl and Friedman, and the Neural DSP Omega ...my free plugins sound just as good if not better.
> 
> The only ones that really impressed me are the Brainworx Diezels and even those don't impress me enough to spend 300 bucks on them.
> 
> Money =/= tone



Neural DSP Nameless and Cali has this sort of real amp low end thump and feel which isn't found in any other plugin. Not even Mercuriall sims feel that good to play on, I've tried some of the Brainworx sims and they're pretty good on that regard too. For me it's worth it, but maybe not for everyone and generally you just have to figure out what kind of sims and ir's work for your tone.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Metropolis said:


> Neural DSP Nameless and Cali has this sort of real amp low end thump and feel which isn't found in any other plugin. Not even Mercuriall sims feel that good to play on, I've tried some of the Brainworx sims and they're pretty good on that regard too. For me it's worth it, but maybe not for everyone and generally you just have to figure out what kind of sims and ir's work for your tone.



Meh. I find most of the "mojo" of various premium amp sims can be done with some EQ and know how with free versions.

Especially when it comes to metal tones. Are those sims good? Yeah...are they 100+ dollars better over free? Hell no


----------



## Metropolis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Meh. I find most of the "mojo" of various premium amp sims can be done with some EQ and know how with free versions.
> 
> Especially when it comes to metal tones. Are those sims good? Yeah...are they 100+ dollars better over free? Hell no



For me better feel and frequency response that sounds about right straight from the source is making the difference. Of course it can be eq'd, but adding something that isn't there is sometimes hard.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Metropolis said:


> For me better feel and frequency response that sounds about right straight from the source is making the difference. Of course it can be eq'd, but adding something that isn't there is sometimes hard.



Yeah. If you want it all in one package then those types of sims are definitely the thing to do..especially if you don't know how to work with free amp sims and sculpting sounds.

As a ready to go unit I think the premium ones shine.


----------



## budda

Jazz iii 1.14 or gtfo for electric. .73 or .88 for acoustic stuff. Grippier the better for this sweaty dude.

I bought a stubby 2.0 15 years ago because its sheer existence was amusing. I think I gave it to a student in a pick assortment gift. Not sure how people use let alone love them, and that's ok.


----------



## Nicki

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Meh. I find most of the "mojo" of various premium amp sims can be done with some EQ and know how with free versions.
> 
> Especially when it comes to metal tones. Are those sims good? Yeah...are they 100+ dollars better over free? Hell no



Agreed. My favorite is the Ignite Emissary which sounds incredible and it's completely free. Fluff's recent 5150iii amp sim is also really killer.


----------



## Jon Pearson

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Did I mention this already?
> 
> Don't bother paying for amp sims...the free ones do the same shit.
> 
> Recently tried the Mercuriall ReAxis, the Brainworx Smolski Engl and Friedman, and the Neural DSP Omega ...my free plugins sound just as good if not better.
> 
> The only ones that really impressed me are the Brainworx Diezels and even those don't impress me enough to spend 300 bucks on them.
> 
> Money =/= tone



Yeah I'm same boat, as long as you have a decent bunch of IRs. I use Two Note WoS and I've pretty much quick trying to rig up a proper mic and can anymore, free amp plugins and that get me what I need.


----------



## USMarine75

Necky379 said:


> That’s why people suggest greenbacks with Cobras. Maybe unpopular, maybe not but I think people have an idea about what greenbacks sound like and don’t have firsthand experience with them. They’re bright, have a lot of upper mids and mid mids. Cutting presence, sharp sounding speakers especially at low volume. Really not a lot of low end. They change when you hit them with volume and low end (think JTM45 on 11). They compress with volume and it smooths them out, it’s like two different speakers. They don’t add a lot of low end but they also don’t turn to shit when you hit them with low end. The Utahs I’ve used in a Fender are a great example of a fantastic sounding speaker that can’t handle lows, they sound terrible and fart if you overdo it. I’ve yet to get farts out of my greenback cab, it’s easy to get with the Utah’s. I haven’t tried the Cobra with a G12T yet but I want to see how that goes soon, lots of experience with it going through G12M’s at this point though. The huge low end of the Cobra makes sense through greenies.



I had the 412 Cobra Cab as well which I kept until a couple years ago. My fav 412.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Did I mention this already?
> 
> Don't bother paying for amp sims...the free ones do the same shit.



Spending money on VST ampsims is stupid. I've been there.

Next month, a new "better" and "more realistic" ampsim will come out, making yours "obsolete". Then you'll have to buy the one with the new hat. Repeat ad nauseum.

Or you can just buy hardware stuff (modelling included) that you can re-sell anytime if you don't like it. You won't catch me spending 150€ on a VST when I just got a fucking Triaxis for 600€.


----------



## budda

Who's actually recycling their strings and packaging?


----------



## rokket2005

Recycling in general is the biggest scam of the last 50 years. You know how the vast majority of the west has recycled in that time? We've put our shit on a tanker and sent it to China where they put it in their landfills.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

We're doing something for the environment!


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> Who's actually recycling their strings and packaging?


 I actually do recycle them but I have doubts the recycling plant does.


----------



## oracles

rokket2005 said:


> Recycling in general is the biggest scam of the last 50 years. You know how the vast majority of the west has recycled in that time? We've put our shit on a tanker and sent it to China where they put it in their landfills.



Recycling is far more complex than most people realize, every city does it differently and has different capabilities and requirements, meaning that despite peoples best efforts, most stuff they put in recycling never actually gets recycled.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

*Cries in Captain Planet*


----------



## Wuuthrad

oracles said:


> Recycling is far more complex than most people realize, every city does it differently and has different capabilities and requirements, meaning that despite peoples best efforts, most stuff they put in recycling never actually gets recycled.





rokket2005 said:


> Recycling in general is the biggest scam of the last 50 years. You know how the vast majority of the west has recycled in that time? We've put our shit on a tanker and sent it to China where they put it in their landfills.




Recycling industry, particularly plastics is partially a scam perpetuated by the US plastic (petroleum) industry to make and sell more plastic.

It is not entirely ineffective as many things are in fact recycled. But it’s pretty bad scam nonetheless.

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/the-plastic-problem

The main thing to takeaway is that it’s _supposed_ to be Reduce, Reuse and Recycle. Recycling in itself isn’t going to do much unless people do the other two first, which is what the petro industry doesn’t want people to do or know. 

Guitar string recycling is not a bad idea, especially Daddario program which does get recycled and gets you some deals.


----------



## SexHaver420

How I feel when people post in this thread.

"if you dont post your IQ at the beginning of every reply to me you will be blocked like a street dog"


----------



## budda

My question wasn't a "if you don't recycle your strings and packaging, burn at the stake!" it was more of a "does anyone care about the recycled materials etc being touted?"

I have a bin on my desk for old strings and packaging. I don't empty it often, and I'm probably due to restring a few electrics .


----------



## Vyn

People who say they hate pointy guitars don't actually hate them, they're just jealous they don't have any themselves


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Vyn said:


> People who say they hate pointy guitars don't actually hate them, they're just jealous they don't have any themselves



I wanna feel like this is true. People who hate pointy guitars are people who couldn't pull off wearing one. I feel like they're just envious of those of us who can.


----------



## Vyn

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I wanna feel like this is true. People who hate pointy guitars are people who couldn't pull off wearing one. I feel like they're just envious of those of us who can.



I was actually going to phrase it exactly like that and went "Nah, I'll try and be polite." Fuck it. Y'all need to get your game on point for points!


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I look like a mushroom wielding a pitchfork but I love my KV cause it's one of the most comfy guitars that I own... Upper fret access is wonderful. Ain't gotta look cool to feel cool. 

Regarding recycling... I admit that I haven't followed where my recyclables go but it's a conscience thing. I throw glass, plastic, etc into the recycle bin cause I feel like it's the right thing to do. Maybe it doesn't mean shit but at this point it's just automatic and it certainly doesn't hurt.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Vyn said:


> People who say they hate pointy guitars don't actually hate them, they're just jealous they don't have any themselves





DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I wanna feel like this is true. People who hate pointy guitars are people who couldn't pull off wearing one. I feel like they're just envious of those of us who can.


It's more like we all went through the pointy guitar phase in our teens/early 20's and realized NOBODY looks good wearing one.

Unpopular Opinion: "Metal" guitars (ridiculous pointy shapes, "metal" inlays, skulls, blood paint jobs, etc) are awful.


----------



## TedEH

Do explorers count at "metal" guitars? 'Cause they're the best of the "pointy" types of guitars. They might be the best shape of all guitars.


----------



## GunpointMetal

TedEH said:


> Do explorers count at "metal" guitars? 'Cause they're the best of the "pointy" types of guitars. They might be the best shape of all guitars.


 Only if they have cross inlays and abalone binding. Or if they're modified to be actually pointing instead of nubby.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I think the association with metal and pointy shapes is a generational thing. 

Over in that Flying V documentary thread all I can think of are these:






Then again, I sort of skipped most of the "metal" from the 80's and 90's as I was far more into the emerging punk and hardcore scenes then. It was playing 7s that got me really into extreme metal in the early 00's.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the association with metal and pointy shapes is a generational thing.
> 
> Over in that Flying V documentary thread all I can think of are these:
> 
> View attachment 84326
> View attachment 84327
> View attachment 84328
> 
> 
> Then again, I sort of skipped most of the "metal" from the 80's and 90's as I was far more into the emerging punk and hardcore scenes then. It was playing 7s that got me really into extreme metal in the early 00's.


Those "V"s aren't what I consider pointy. Mostly I'm referring to guitars that are designed to look "bad-ass" to guys who think 5FDP are really, really heavy, or don't know death metal got better after the 90s.


----------



## TedEH

GunpointMetal said:


> Or if they're modified to be actually pointing instead of nubby.


So maybe the ESP explorer shape might be "metal" looking, but the rounded gibson version not so much. Then a step farther would be the jackson warrior shape, which I think fits unmistakably in the pointy metal guitar camp.

I kinda like all of em.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The only wacky pointy stuff I'm not into are most Monson Guitars. They just don't have any flow. 

That said, if it fits the band's aesthetic I can let it go.


----------



## USMarine75

I love pointy guitars...










MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the association with metal and pointy shapes is a generational thing.
> 
> Over in that Flying V documentary thread all I can think of are these:
> 
> View attachment 84326
> View attachment 84327
> View attachment 84328
> 
> 
> Then again, I sort of skipped most of the "metal" from the 80's and 90's as I was far more into the emerging punk and hardcore scenes then. It was playing 7s that got me really into extreme metal in the early 00's.



First person I think of when people mention is Albert King (note his first guitar was a righty upside down with upside down strings). His video with SRV is legendary.


----------



## Mathemagician

Vyn said:


> People who say they hate pointy guitars don't actually hate them, they're just jealous they don't have any themselves



This is basic pointy fan knowledge. It’s not about the player looking cool. It’s about the guitar BEING cool. It makes you cool just by holding it. It’s like schrodingers bubble of cool. While holding it you are cool. Without it who knows. But you can’t be sure because while you’re holding it you feel SO cool that you can’t hear anything anyone is saying.


----------



## efiltsohg

It's about ostensibly grown-ass men having the same notion of coolness as an 8 year old


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> Those "V"s aren't what I consider pointy. Mostly I'm referring to guitars that are designed to look "bad-ass" to guys who think 5FDP are really, really heavy, or don't know death metal got better after the 90s.



This is the opinion of people who often have the personalities of wet socks and get angry at musicians for realizing that show business is about.....a show.

*A Wild Doyle Appears*


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is the opinion of people who often have the personalities of wet socks and get angry at musicians for realizing that show business is about.....a show.
> 
> *A Wild Doyle Appears*



There's a lot of really, really great live shows that don't require Spirit Store theatrics for entertainment.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> There's a lot of really, really great live shows that don't require Spirit Store theatrics for entertainment.



And there are lots of shows that do have it because it's part of the gig. It's called entertainment. The point of a live show is to entertain, in case you weren't aware.

Lights, music, smoke, crowd interaction, makeup, costumes, cool stage design, whatever gets the job done.

If people didn't want to see those things, they would just sit at home and listen to the album. They buy a ticket to be part of an experience.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And there are lots of shows that do have it because it's part of the gig. It's called entertainment. The point of a live show is to entertain, in case you weren't aware.
> 
> Lights, music, smoke, crowd interaction, makeup, costumes, cool stage design, whatever gets the job done.
> 
> If people didn't want to see those things, they would just sit at home and listen to the album. They buy a ticket to be part of an experience.


 Whatever works for you man! I'd need someone to buy my ticket and offer drinks to go see Doyle, lol. Behemoth has been about the only band I've seen pull off the occult stage show and not come off super, duper cheesy. A few accent lights and an energetic performance > costumes/makeup/ridiculous guitars.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

efiltsohg said:


> It's about ostensibly grown-ass men having the same notion of coolness as an 8 year old



Eh, why not? 

If there's one healthy outlet for a bit of childishness I figure it would be this. 

I don't know, I'm in a glass house here. I've looked at old timers in shitty Nu Metal bands and have cringed. Probably says as much about myself.


----------



## GunpointMetal

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know, I'm in a glass house here. I've looked at old timers in shitty Nu Metal bands and have cringed. Probably says as much about myself.


 Everbody looks at old timers in nu-metal bands and cringes. Even the other old-timers in other cringe nu metal bands. Seeing as you're from Wisconsin, you know there's no shortage of old-timers in nu metal bands.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> Whatever works for you man! I'd need someone to buy my ticket and offer drinks to go see Doyle, lol. Behemoth has been about the only band I've seen pull off the occult stage show and not come off super, duper cheesy. A few accent lights and an energetic performance > costumes/makeup/ridiculous guitars.



Mind you...I certainly don't think everyone should go out looking like a Halloween store explosion. That's not for everyone and not everyone's music calls for that. I think some people do that to get attention because the music sucks.

But doing it because you like it and you feel it fits what you're doing? Sure. Of COURSE it's cheesy. The camp factor is the fun of it, I think. Doyle reminds me of a cartoon character. I don't really think people like him, Abbath, etc are scary or anything..but it's fun to see. GWAR is a good example. That shit looks highly uncomfortable to have to play in and I know during the summer it must be HORRIBLE...but it's good dumb fun.

Then you have those black metal dudes who take it super seriously and I can't help but roll my eyes. Dude you're wearing gay men's fetish clothes and makeup...it's not that serious. Girl, calm down.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

GunpointMetal said:


> Seeing as you're from Wisconsin, you know there's no shortage of old-timers in nu metal bands.



I tripped over three to get the paper and that's a good day.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Speaking of Misfits, Michale Graves > Glen Danzig. I don't even count Jerry Only.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> Speaking of Misfits, Michale Graves > Glen Danzig. I don't even count Jerry Only.


Um.....I'm assuming you mean vocal wise. Ol' Gravey boi done lost his mind and became a racist.

But even regarding vocals Danzig > Gravey


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Um.....I'm assuming you mean vocal wise. Ol' Gravey boi done lost his mind and became a racist.
> 
> But even regarding vocals Danzig > Gravey



That's unfortunate, I hadn't heard about that. Quite frankly, I didn't know he was still alive. 

Bummer.

Still like his vocals better and the Misfits as whole on his releases.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's unfortunate, I hadn't heard about that. Quite frankly, I didn't know he was still alive.
> 
> Bummer.
> 
> Still like his vocals better and the Misfits as whole on his releases.



To be fair my only frame of reference for his vocals is "Dig Up Her Bones". Meanwhile Danzig clearly has a lot of songs out there so his voice is more familiar.


----------



## Mathemagician

efiltsohg said:


> It's about ostensibly grown-ass men having the same notion of coolness as an 8 year old



I’ve said it before, Metal is corny as shit.

All of it. Death, Decapitation, entombment, shadows falling, laying there dying, eternal hate, carcasses, dead fetuses, Deicide, aggressive dragons, the lord’s lamb chops, sad angels, Mayhem?

Dorky ass themes and images, all of it. AND THATS WHY ITS FUN!

I cannot understand people trying to take metal “seriously”. Pop and Rap have much more mundane topics and embrace the excesses of stages shows, meanwhile metal bands have to conform in order to look “cool” to a bunch of other non-conforming people all wearing black band shirts and either jeans or camo shorts. TF?

Meanwhile I went to a Disturbed/Slipknot show and PacMan and Jesus started a mud slip & slide when it started raining. Because those cringey NU-metal dudes know how to party on $10 bud lights.


----------



## USMarine75

MaxOfMetal said:


> Speaking of Misfits, Michale Graves > Glen Danzig. I don't even count Jerry Only.



Inside your feeble brain there's probably a whore. 

If you don't shut your mouth you're gonna feel the floor.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's unfortunate, I hadn't heard about that. Quite frankly, I didn't know he was still alive.
> 
> Bummer.
> 
> Still like his vocals better and the Misfits as whole on his releases.



Yep. He's an open Proud Boy/MAGA type. 

I agree that the Graves era Misfits has some of the best songwriting they've done. Some also metal/punk mixage.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Mathemagician said:


> I’ve said it before, Metal is corny as shit.


This I agree with. I don't think leaning into it like a clown at the circus makes for a better show, though. Unless you're GWAR, because that's their whole schtick. 



Mathemagician said:


> Meanwhile I went to a Disturbed/Slipknot show and PacMan and Jesus started a mud slip & slide when it started raining. Because those cringey NU-metal dudes know how to party on $10 bud lights.


 You must see different cringey nu-metal dudes than I do. All they do on $10 but lights is get their asses kicked and harass girls half their age.


----------



## Emperoff

I picked up guitar due to numetal before becoming a Metallica fanboy to end up playing in corny clothes in a Steel Panther-sort-of-band (and it's the best band I've ever been at).

LET YOUR HATE FEED ME!!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Fallon Bowman of Kittie got me into playing guitar. Kittie is literally the reason I play. I'm also a huge Marilyn Manson and Mana Sama fan.

Now I look like <-- this.

Say no to nu-metal, kids. It's a slippery slope


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Unpopular opinion:

The Omega Ampworks Obsidian is the goodest


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Unpopular opinion:
> 
> The Omega Ampworks Obsidian is the goodest


The only amp I've heard in a LOOOONG time that makes me want to buy a real amp again. I probably won't, but I really like how it sounds.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> The only amp I've heard in a LOOOONG time that makes me want to buy a real amp again. I probably won't, but I really like how it sounds.


This.

After trying three of the amp sims of this amp I fell in love. Hearing the real version made it even worse. That's the only amp I'd love to actually get my hands on. Even the cabs lok great. I feel like the Obsidian is the amp for me.


----------



## USMarine75

I still like Korn, Mushroomhead, Mudvayne, and Slipknot. 

What genre is Dope and Nonpoint... because I still love them too.


----------



## Matt08642

GunpointMetal said:


> This I agree with. I don't think leaning into it like a clown at the circus makes for a better show, though. Unless you're GWAR, because that's their whole schtick.
> 
> You must see different cringey nu-metal dudes than I do. All they do on $10 but lights is get their asses kicked and harass girls half their age.



Yeah, I went to a Static X show last year and the show was awesome (fully embraced the fact that Wayne Static is dead, put an awesome show on) but it was easily the worst crowd at any show I have ever been to

Non-stop fights and harassment, a lot of the fighting was in retaliation for peoples girlfriends being grabbed or shoved around

I don't want to cast that light on all fans everywhere of the genre/bands, but it was the only show I've left angry from.


----------



## Mathemagician

USMarine75 said:


> I still like Korn, Mushroomhead, Mudvayne, and Slipknot.
> 
> What genre is Dope and Nonpoint... because I still love them too.



Don’t forget Murderdolls (minus one member) and Wednesday 13’s solo stuff.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mathemagician said:


> Don’t forget Murderdolls (minus one member) and Wednesday 13’s solo stuff.



I hated Murderdolls. The irony is I can't stand that whole wave of Manson looking dudes that popped up around that time.

Wednesday 13's live show won me over though. I thought very little of him before that and I saw a gig he did and it reminded me of a new age Alice Cooper type stage show. It was campy and fun. Even the crowd was won over and you could see the shift in attention. That's the sign of a good performer. I dig him.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the association with metal and pointy shapes is a generational thing.
> 
> Over in that Flying V documentary thread all I can think of are these:
> 
> 
> View attachment 84328
> 
> 
> Then again, I sort of skipped most of the "metal" from the 80's and 90's as I was far more into the emerging punk and hardcore scenes then. It was playing 7s that got me really into extreme metal in the early 00's.


That kinda looks like Ted Nugent.


----------



## StevenC

GunpointMetal said:


> Those "V"s aren't what I consider pointy. Mostly I'm referring to guitars that are designed to look "bad-ass" to guys who think 5FDP are really, really heavy, or don't know death metal got better after the 90s.


I know this is the unpopular opinions _on gear _thread, but this is wrong and there are only maybe 10 good death metal albums, and most of them came out in the 90s.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Um.....I'm assuming you mean vocal wise. Ol' Gravey boi done lost his mind and became a racist.
> 
> But even regarding vocals Danzig > Gravey


He became a racist? How?


----------



## GunpointMetal

StevenC said:


> I know this is the unpopular opinions _on gear _thread, but this is wrong and there are only maybe 10 good death metal albums, and most of them came out in the 90s.


That's just ridiculous.


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I hated Murderdolls. The irony is I can't stand that whole wave of Manson looking dudes that popped up around that time.
> 
> Wednesday 13's live show won me over though. I thought very little of him before that and I saw a gig he did and it reminded me of a new age Alice Cooper type stage show. It was campy and fun. Even the crowd was won over and you could see the shift in attention. That's the sign of a good performer. I dig him.



I love catchy choruses, and he basically wrote “heavy” pop-punk songs with gravelly vocals and small solos.

And as for the camp-factor you are dead on, I mean with lyrics like:

“In 197666 I was born a bastard and a son of a bitch”

and

“Hey Norman bates, how are your rates? Hey Frankenstein, what’s on your mind?”

How could anyone not love it? Brb getting some marshmallows for camping.


----------



## StevenC

GunpointMetal said:


> That's just ridiculous.


So there's like Human, Individual Thought Patterns, Symbolic, Sound of Perseverance, Focus, 4 Atheist albums and *your wild card here*.


----------



## Emperoff

StevenC said:


> I know this is the unpopular opinions _on gear _thread, but this is wrong and there are only maybe 10 good death metal albums, and most of them came out in the 90s.



Negative.


----------



## Vyn

efiltsohg said:


> It's about ostensibly grown-ass men having the same notion of coolness as an 8 year old



There was nothing in the rules about growing up, only about getting older. If anything I haven't progressed in terms of coolness past a 6 year old at maximum


----------



## Mathemagician

Vyn said:


> There was nothing in the rules about growing up, only about getting older. If anything I haven't progressed in terms of coolness past a 6 year old at maximum



It’s perfectly acceptable to make friends with “Hey bro you like pizza?” Just gotta give anyone who needs it a second to pop an antacid.


----------



## Vyn

Mathemagician said:


> It’s perfectly acceptable to make friends with “Hey bro you like pizza?” Just gotta give anyone who needs it a second to pop an antacid.



The last gig I went to I stretched before and afterwards otherwise I was not getting up the next morning after a night running around in the pit like a moron


----------



## Mathemagician

Vyn said:


> The last gig I went to I stretched before and afterwards otherwise I was not getting up the next morning after a night running around in the pit like a moron



Chug water before bed, elevate your knees, eat a slice of bread or two to absorb some of that beer you said you didn’t drink. All part of a fun day of activities.


----------



## Vyn

Mathemagician said:


> Chug water before bed, elevate your knees, eat a slice of bread or two to absorb some of that beer you said you didn’t drink. All part of a fun day of activities.



I just gave up on beer in the end, couldn't handle it. I'd either forget to drink water and end up with the worst hangover ever OR have one beer too many and wind up not realising that I'd been hurt in the pit and it was time to stop, resulting in not leaving bed for a few days.

Just water and lemon-lime-and-bitters now! Oh and ear plugs. Fuck me, I want to smack the shit out of the 14-year-old me who was a wanker who refused to wear any form of hearing protection.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah around 18-20 I started with ear plugs as it was just miserable being deaf for a day after a metal show. I wasn’t sure “how bad” it was at the time, but I knew it couldn’t be good.


----------



## Vyn

Mathemagician said:


> Yeah around 18-20 I started with ear plugs as it was just miserable being deaf for a day after a metal show. I wasn’t sure “how bad” it was at the time, but I knew it couldn’t be good.



On that topic - maybe that's why the Messhuggah dudes like that clanky guitar tone, they need that much high-end from having fried their hearing over 30 years of shows


----------



## Nicki

Mathemagician said:


> Yeah around 18-20 I started with ear plugs as it was just miserable being deaf for a day after a metal show. I wasn’t sure “how bad” it was at the time, but I knew it couldn’t be good.


I think that started for me around the age of 20 as well... Standing right in front of the stage right loud speaker at a BFMV concert during their Scream Aim Fire tour.... I was deaf for about 2 days afterwards and that's when my tinnitus started. My wife started coming with me to metal shows (she was not a metalhead before meeting me. I made her a convert). I handed her a pair of foam earplugs at her first metal show... she looked at me like I was crazy.... 20 seconds into the first song of the opening act and she put them in.... I had a good chuckle.

Edit

Side note: ear protection is how you tell the truly experienced metal show-goer from the new fans.


----------



## thebeesknees22

I've been messing with Kontakt for about 30 minutes now and I want to throw it through a window. 

It's not really super intuitive...at.. all. sigh... I'm going to have to read instructions or watch a how to video. 

/tableflip


----------



## Wuuthrad

Vyn said:


> On that topic - maybe that's why the Messhuggah dudes like that clanky guitar tone, they need that much high-end from having fried their hearing over 30 years of shows



Speaking from my own experience, you are most probably right!

Kinda reminds me of Ola- probably unpopular opinion, but to me it looks like he spends a lot of money buying gear to make the same crappy sound in every video!

Compare someone like Teloch (who also gets a crappy sound but it’s a really good crappy sound!)


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He became a racist? How?



Became a "white lives matter" "but mah hartige!!" proud boy


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> Speaking from my own experience, you are most probably right!
> 
> Kinda reminds me of Ola- probably unpopular opinion, but to me it looks like he spends a lot of money buying gear to make the same crappy sound in every video!
> 
> Compare someone like Teloch (who also gets a crappy sound but it’s a really good crappy sound!)




I love Teloch's vids. On the Ola thing I used to hate his vids and swear he made everything sound the same. His ideal tone isn't my thing....way too much high end and whatnot but I became a subscriber to his channel and I like him a lot. I've gotten used to his tonal preferences but it's still funny sometimes when he's flipping through sound options and I'm going "yeah that one sounds awesome...wait..what are you doing? No! Go back to the other one! No not this one! Ugh!"


----------



## c7spheres

GODDAMNIT !


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> GODDAMNIT !


^^^^ HE NEED SOME MILK


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I love Teloch's vids. On the Ola thing I used to hate his vids and swear he made everything sound the same. His ideal tone isn't my thing....way too much high end and whatnot but I became a subscriber to his channel and I like him a lot. I've gotten used to his tonal preferences but it's still funny sometimes when he's flipping through sound options and I'm going "yeah that one sounds awesome...wait..what are you doing? No! Go back to the other one! No not this one! Ugh!"



I enjoy his channel, lots of content and variety, most of the time I just don’t like his tone. No big deal! 

There was that one time tho- whatever he did with the R.A.T. pedal must’ve scarred me lol.


----------



## Vyn

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I love Teloch's vids. On the Ola thing I used to hate his vids and swear he made everything sound the same. His ideal tone isn't my thing....way too much high end and whatnot but I became a subscriber to his channel and I like him a lot. I've gotten used to his tonal preferences but it's still funny sometimes when he's flipping through sound options and I'm going "yeah that one sounds awesome...wait..what are you doing? No! Go back to the other one! No not this one! Ugh!"



Ola sounding the same in every video is actually a godsend, because you can actually hear the differences between the various pieces of gear that he's demoing, which is kinda the whole point of a demo - if it doesn't offer anything that the consumer doesn't already have then there's no point buying the product.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Vyn said:


> Ola sounding the same in every video is actually a godsend, because you can actually hear the differences between the various pieces of gear that he's demoing, which is kinda the whole point of a demo - if it doesn't offer anything that the consumer doesn't already have then there's no point buying the product.



Well that's the thing. If you watch his videos often, and you're used to the tone he's after, you notice differences. His stuff doesn't actually sound the same..it's just he has an ideal tone that's his reference point and from there you can hear how each piece of gear he tries approximates that.


----------



## BenjaminW

I know we buried the EMG/active pickups topic a while back, so I hate to bring it back. But anyways, the two places or environments you could call them that EMGs/active pickups sound the best in are clean tones (think Metallica type clean tones) or really smooth/soaring lead tones from the 80s/90s.


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Became a "white lives matter" "but mah hartige!!" proud boy



Man that fucking sucks. American Psycho is my favorite (and only) misfits album.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Mathemagician said:


> Man that fucking sucks. American Psycho is my favorite (and only) misfits album.


Earth AD.


----------



## Necky379

Graves played my friend’s condo and another friend’s wedding. He was super cool to everyone. Great memories. I don’t know what he’s up to these days, none of this is gear related though.

I think Doyle’s guitar has a good story behind it, he made it in his friend’s machine shop or something?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Became a "white lives matter" "but mah hartige!!" proud boy


Uh, okay.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> I know we buried the EMG/active pickups topic a while back, so I hate to bring it back. But anyways, the two places or environments you could call them that EMGs/active pickups sound the best in are clean tones (think Metallica type clean tones) or really smooth/soaring lead tones from the 80s/90s.


But not super tight, precise rhythms? Please!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Necky379 said:


> Graves played my friend’s condo and another friend’s wedding. He was super cool to everyone. Great memories. I don’t know what he’s up to these days, none of this is gear related though.
> 
> I think Doyle’s guitar has a good story behind it, he made it in his friend’s machine shop or something?


Father's.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Necky379 said:


> Graves played my friend’s condo and another friend’s wedding. He was super cool to everyone. Great memories. I don’t know what he’s up to these days, none of this is gear related though.
> 
> I think Doyle’s guitar has a good story behind it, he made it in his friend’s machine shop or something?



Yeah he makes his own guitars. Apparently he just decided to do it one day...so he did. Doyle is a super salt of the Earth kinda dude and watching interviews with him is fascinating. I didn't know much about him before but I saw an interview and became a fan. He's a simple player, pretty much just chugs along and isn't concerned about being a virtuoso or anything. He has a simple approach to gear and tone, only got into guitar because the Misfits needed a guitar player and he just had to learn to fill in. He's as basic as it gets and I find that amazing. It's refreshing to see a dude just settle into where he wants to be and manages to succeed at it


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Doyle sorta pissed of Demeter when he didn't mention his "secret weapon." 



About a minute in.


----------



## SexHaver420

If you can't play guitar/bass/drums and do vocals at the same time you have a tiny brain that's incapable of multitasking.

Also anyone who cups the mic besides the dude from Dir En Grey is a trash vocalist.

Mark series are also the only good Mesa guitar amps but I'll fuck with their bass stuff. It's pretty rad.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> Also anyone who cups the mic besides the dude from Dir En Grey is a trash vocalist.


And Annie Lennox...Annie Lennox is allowed to cup the mic


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Who?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

SexHaver420 said:


> If you can't play guitar/bass/drums and do vocals at the same time you have a tiny brain that's incapable of multitasking.
> 
> Also anyone who cups the mic besides the dude from Dir En Grey is a trash vocalist.
> 
> Mark series are also the only good Mesa guitar amps but I'll fuck with their bass stuff. It's pretty rad.




I can’t sing and play at the same time. 

That said I struggle to sing or play one at a time...


----------



## Necky379

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah he makes his own guitars. Apparently he just decided to do it one day...so he did. Doyle is a super salt of the Earth kinda dude and watching interviews with him is fascinating. I didn't know much about him before but I saw an interview and became a fan. He's a simple player, pretty much just chugs along and isn't concerned about being a virtuoso or anything. He has a simple approach to gear and tone, only got into guitar because the Misfits needed a guitar player and he just had to learn to fill in. He's as basic as it gets and I find that amazing. It's refreshing to see a dude just settle into where he wants to be and manages to succeed at it



Are we arguing again? It’s late but I usually assume you’re being a prick without giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your creative vision sometimes makes your sarcasm hard to recognize.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Necky379 said:


> Are we arguing again? It’s late but I usually assume you’re being a prick without giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your creative vision sometimes makes your sarcasm hard to recognize.


I think he's just replying to the bit about Doyle.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Necky379 said:


> Are we arguing again? It’s late but I usually assume you’re being a prick without giving you the benefit of the doubt. Your creative vision sometimes makes your sarcasm hard to recognize.


Lmao. I have this problem in real life. I say things with no expression and people aren't sure if I'm serious or just being an ass.

Nah I really like Doyle. I didn't know much about him until I saw that interview Ace just posted and I became a fan. I was never a big Misfits fan so I didn't know much about him. He's really cool.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Who?


*sigh* Google


----------



## Necky379

I get that. I’m not much of a Doyle fan but I respect the DIY part.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Necky379 said:


> I get that. I’m not much of a Doyle fan but I respect the DIY part.


There's a great old live vid of them floating around of them from 81 or 82 where you see this kid keep trying to unplug Doyle's guitar. He tries like 2-3 times, and then gets the business end of Doyle's Iceman right in his jaw and down he goes.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Necky379 said:


> Graves played my friend’s condo and another friend’s wedding. He was super cool to everyone. Great memories. I don’t know what he’s up to these days, none of this is gear related though.
> 
> I think Doyle’s guitar has a good story behind it, he made it in his friend’s machine shop or something?


----------



## GunpointMetal

SexHaver420 said:


> If you can't play guitar/bass/drums and do vocals at the same time you have a tiny brain that's incapable of multitasking.


 I can barely stand up and play my guitar at the same time. I guess if I was playing some Nirvana shit, maybe.



SexHaver420 said:


> Also anyone who cups the mic besides the dude from Dir En Grey is a trash vocalist.


 That's like saying anyone who uses a compressor or a distortion pedal or an EQ pedal is a trash guitarist. This is the dumbest shit only crappy live sound engineers and old people say.


----------



## Mathemagician

Doyle’s guitar also has the floyd bolted down to the body with the wings cut off. It’s just for tuning stability.


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> That's like saying anyone who uses a compressor or a distortion pedal or an EQ pedal is a trash guitarist. This is the dumbest shit only crappy live sound engineers and old people say.



Any sound engineer worth a damn will tell you that cupping the mic is stupid.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Emperoff said:


> Any sound engineer worth a damn will tell you that cupping the mic is stupid.


 Any sound engineer worth a damn will ring out his monitors properly before a show where people cup the mic and then its not a problem for anybody. This is as antiquated of an idea as "nobody needs more than six strings". A live sound engineer working a metal show that doesn't prepare for it is the same as a guitarist that stacks overdrives, won't use a noise gate, then complains about feedback.


----------



## BenjaminW

Spaced Out Ace said:


> But not super tight, precise rhythms? Please!


Ok that, too.


----------



## USMarine75

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> *sigh* Google



You can't seem angsty and elitist that way.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

SexHaver420 said:


> If you can't play guitar/bass/drums and do vocals at the same time you have a tiny brain that's incapable of multitasking.



I'm glad I come from the Geddy Lee school of multitasking. 

Here's my rig one time I directed a gospel band playing guitar/keys and backing vox. (5153 not pictured)








And here's my rig with my prog band where I played bass, also keys, and backing vox. 






Come to think of it, in a time where it's all about digital rigs, these kind of pedalboards would be pretty unpopular around here, so I guess these fit this thread quite well.


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> Any sound engineer worth a damn will ring out his monitors properly before a show where people cup the mic and then its not a problem for anybody. This is as antiquated of an idea as "nobody needs more than six strings". A live sound engineer working a metal show that doesn't prepare for it is the same as a guitarist that stacks overdrives, won't use a noise gate, then complains about feedback.



It's still stupid and they know. But they also know It's easier to juggle with the EQ to overcome the crappy sound than to convience a stupid singer to stop doing it.

Also, any singer worth a damn doesn't cup the mic so why bother.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Emperoff said:


> It's still stupid and they know. But they also know It's easier to juggle with the EQ to overcome the crappy sound than to convience a stupid singer to stop doing it.
> 
> Also, any singer worth a damn doesn't cup the mic so why bother.


"Singer" is a loose term for most metal vocals. It's a sound manipulation technique just like any other modification to either the instrument or the amplification that's come about over the years, it's just taken until recently for (smart) FOH engineers to realize it and account for it. You can literally look at what it does to the EQ shape and polar pattern of a handheld microphone and see why it's functional/preferable for the SOUND of the vocals. Same reason beatboxers swallow the mic for some of the stuff they do, which often requires way more ability and skill than "singers", but they have shit technique right... (insert Abe Simpson yelling at clouds image I'm too lazy to find).


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> "Singer" is a loose term for most metal vocals. It's a sound manipulation technique just like any other modification to either the instrument or the amplification that's come about over the years, it's just taken until recently for (smart) FOH engineers to realize it and account for it. You can literally look at what it does to the EQ shape and polar pattern of a handheld microphone and see why it's functional/preferable for the SOUND of the vocals. Same reason beatboxers swallow the mic for some of the stuff they do, which often requires way more ability and skill than "singers", but they have shit technique right... (insert Abe Simpson yelling at clouds image I'm too lazy to find).



You can argue as much as you want. Most languages end up adopting mispelled words because it's easier than make stupid people speak correctly. This is just another example, and of course engineers have to adapt because it's their job. That doesn't make mic-cuppers any less stupid.

And since you mention rappers, it's funny how they use their skill to produce different sounds, where others produce a crappy sound due to their lack of skills. And yet the engineer is the one that has to adapt.

We can go on and on, here. You won't convince me nor any of my Abe Simpson friends that do live sound for a living.


----------



## GunpointMetal

Lol, adapting to the artist is literally the sound engineers job. 
Like being a defense attorney and being like "Ugghhh, another guy with problems with the law..."


----------



## Matt08642

Spaced Out Ace said:


> But not super tight, precise rhythms? Please!



Filthy 6505 rhythm tone with my EMG 81/85 in D standard with no boost in front:




Opinion: You can get an incredible sound from a rig comprised entirely of used $40 boss pedals with broken knobs and chipped paint and almost any crusty used recto/5150/whatever

Unless you're doing some Devin Townsend theatrical show with auto switching patches that swing wildly between sounds over a 10 minute song, the above would be sufficient for most metal/rock players.

Came to this realization when I got the itch to blow money on VSTs and modelers and everything I tried just didn't blow me away compared to basic bitch pedals in to a high gain amp ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Emperoff

GunpointMetal said:


> Lol, adapting to the artist is literally the sound engineers job.
> Like being a defense attorney and being like "Ugghhh, another guy with problems with the law..."





Emperoff said:


> This is just another example, _*and of course engineers have to adapt because it's their job.*_


----------



## efiltsohg

Matt08642 said:


> Opinion: You can get an incredible sound from a rig comprised entirely of used $40 boss pedals with broken knobs and chipped paint and almost any crusty used recto/5150/whatever



hell, you can get an incredible sound from a rig comprised entirely of a crusty used 5150 with no pedals


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Mathemagician said:


> Doyle’s guitar also has the floyd bolted down to the body with the wings cut off. It’s just for tuning stability.


It's so he doesn't cut himself.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Carl Kolchak said:


> There's a great old live vid of them floating around of them from 81 or 82 where you see this kid keep trying to unplug Doyle's guitar. He tries like 2-3 times, and then gets the business end of Doyle's Iceman right in his jaw and down he goes.


Gotta link to that? I wanna see some slob get knocked in his day job.


----------



## Matt08642

efiltsohg said:


> hell, you can get an incredible sound from a rig comprised entirely of a crusty used 5150 with no pedals



Exactly, the only pedals I've been using lately are my NS2 and TU3


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> Exactly, the only pedals I've been using lately are my NS2 and TU3


And you're still outta tune! Intonate, intonate, intonate.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> That's like saying anyone who uses a compressor or a distortion pedal or an EQ pedal is a trash guitarist. This is the dumbest shit only crappy live sound engineers and old people say.


 Wrong. Cupping the mic sounds like a shit and if you're a vocalist worth a damn, you don't do it and don't need to.

Studio engineers, sound people, and real vocalists all agree. Cupping the mic sounds like shit


----------



## BenjaminW

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I'm glad I come from the Geddy Lee school of multitasking.
> 
> Here's my rig one time I directed a gospel band playing guitar/keys and backing vox. (5153 not pictured)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's my rig with my prog band where I played bass, also keys, and backing vox.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, in a time where it's all about digital rigs, these kind of pedalboards would be pretty unpopular around here, so I guess these fit this thread quite well.


Looks beautiful!


----------



## GunpointMetal

I love how this thread drops into a time machine and flies backwards like 20-30 years for random topics.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Wrong. Cupping the mic sounds like a shit and if you're a vocalist worth a damn, you don't do it and don't need to.
> 
> Studio engineers, sound people, and real vocalists all agree. Cupping the mic sounds like shit


Manipulating your source and amplification on guitar = good
Manipulating your source and amplification on a microphone = bad
Got it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I'm glad I come from the Geddy Lee school of multitasking.
> 
> Here's my rig one time I directed a gospel band playing guitar/keys and backing vox. (5153 not pictured)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And here's my rig with my prog band where I played bass, also keys, and backing vox.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Come to think of it, in a time where it's all about digital rigs, these kind of pedalboards would be pretty unpopular around here, so I guess these fit this thread quite well.



I'm so done with rigs like this, but damn, I love it. Super jealous.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> Manipulating your source and amplification on guitar = good
> Manipulating your source and amplification on a microphone = bad
> Got it.



More like

Trying to give yourself more 'feelz' by completely fucking up the sound because you can't actually project and use vocal fry like a real metal vocalist = bad.

If you can't sound all "evil" without goofy tricks to fake what you don't have...then the band should find an actual singer.


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> More like
> 
> Trying to give yourself more 'feelz' by completely fucking up the sound because you can't actually project and use vocal fry like a real metal vocalist = bad


HAHAHA...no.

Guitarists: let's learn all sorts of techniques and create all sorts of devices that dramatically change the sound of a vibrating metal string into a magnet. But vocalists have to make the exact sound they want 2" in front of their mouth hole without touching the microphone or exceeding a certain volume threshold or else tHE FOH GUY/ENGINEER MIGHT HAVE TO TOUCH THEIR EQ OR GAIN KNOBS. OH NO, THE HORROR!!!!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> HAHAHA...no.



Every sound engineer and studio owner has stories of the idiots who act like cupping the mic is the new thing that old folks just don't understand.

It's called stupidity. Either be a real vocalist or stop wasting everyone's time


----------



## GunpointMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Every sound engineer and studio owner has stories of the idiots who act like cupping the mic is the new thing that old folks just don't understand.
> 
> It's called stupidity. Either be a real vocalist or stop wasting everyone's time


This is what I imagine guitarists/engineers sounded like the first time someone brought an intentionally distorted guitar into the mix.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

GunpointMetal said:


> This is what I imagine guitarists/engineers sounded like the first time someone brought an intentionally distorted guitar into the mix.



That's a cute imagination...but you're wrong.

It sounds like shit. There's no reason to do it other than people trying to fake what real vocalist do without cupping the mic.

Argue all you like...it's stupid. Everyone with sense knows it's stupid. If ya can't do Da Cookie Monsterz without gurgling all over the mic then it's time to learn how to do it correctly.


----------



## Emperoff

Thing is: If the only way to create that sound was by cupping the mic, it would make sense. But it's only that way for crappy vocalists. Good ones can do it without screwing the sound guys over.


----------



## GunpointMetal

If you can't do a loud pinch harmonic on your clean channel, learn how to do it correctly. If you can't play legato on your high e at the same volume as chugging on your low e without compression/distortion, learn how to do it correctly. If you can't make palm mutes sound chunky on the clean channel, learn how to do it correctly.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

All places should have these. Watch how many "vocalists" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their vocals


----------



## akinari

Is this thread the Dunlop factory? God damn it's full of crybabies.


----------



## Wuuthrad

GunpointMetal said:


> This is what I imagine guitarists/engineers sounded like the first time someone brought an intentionally distorted guitar into the mix.



The first recorded distorted guitar sound was a broken speaker on an old tube amp that was played too loud- it was an accident that the guitarist and engineer liked the sound of.

But go ahead- feel free to distort the ribbon of your mic that might of been up GG Allen’s butthole, you might also enjoy the feedback and busted speakers in a new and undiscovered way!


----------



## Matt08642

Christ those SMG videos are insufferable.

At a certain point it feels like we're dictating how an artist is doing something because it's difficult to "deal with". Willing to bet if I mention any artists specifically, someone would just say "They do that thing and they suck hahah roasted"

All places should have [thing that changes the sound]. Watch how many "[x]" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their [x]
All places should have no compression. Watch how many "guitarists" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their fingerpicking
All places should have a room mic only. Watch how many "bands" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their volume mix
All places should have all the acoustic treatment in the room removed. Watch how many "literally any recorded role" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their sound reflectivity

If you judge something someone's doing based on some old measure, it difficult to see it as a good measure and becomes a sort of gatekeeping. If the vision is distorting the mic by cupping it and screaming over poorly intonated guitars, that's their choice. It might sound like shit, but okie dokie.

While I'm at it, the audible difference between the Solar and the Mayones (7x the price) in this video is little more than an EQ difference: 

$7000 guitars are memes.

This single thread has been the most fun I've had reading posts on SSO in years.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Matt08642 said:


> Cupping the mic is stupid.



There. Fixed.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Bullhorn into microphone ensures consistency. Few know this.


----------



## Matt08642

Seabeast2000 said:


> Bullhorn into microphone ensures consistency. Few know this.



The Patton™


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Seabeast2000 said:


> Bullhorn into microphone ensures consistency. Few know this.


----------



## nickgray

Matt08642 said:


> Christ those SMG videos are insufferable



Oh man, Glenn was moderately entertaining at some point, but the amount of shit he says relative to his abilities is embarrassing. Tons of advertisement for his stuff and for some 3rd party courses (paid, of course) too. The latest cringe was about drum programming, I guess the dude has no concept of sheet music.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

nickgray said:


> The latest cringe was about drum programming, I guess the dude has no concept of sheet music.



Wait wait...we might have something here. What was his cringe about drum programming?


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Wait wait...we might have something here. What was his cringe about drum programming?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

nickgray said:


>




Buuut he's right. Fake drums are a cheap way out. Obviously some people have to due to various reasons but a real drummer is always preferred. He's talking about lazy fucks who just want to click and paste everything to try to get the same results as the guys who put in effort to acquire the real skill


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

nickgray said:


>




Buuut he's right. Fake drums are a cheap way out. Obviously some people have to due to various reasons but a real drummer is always preferred. He's talking about lazy fucks who just want to click and paste everything to try to get the same results as the guys who put in effort to acquire the real skill


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Buuut he's right. Fake drums are a cheap way out.



But that's not the point. I mean sure, if you're programming a primitive 4/4 rock groove and then say it takes skill or that it's "as good as the real thing" - yes that's lazy, no questions there. I really don't think there are a lot of people who argue that programmed drums are as good or superior to a real drummer though. Programmed drums are used when a real drummer isn't available, simple as that. And more to the point - programming the drums. This is literally the same as composing percussion with pen and paper. Takes as much skill or as little skill and talent as the part you're composing. The issue is that this written music will not be performed by a real musician is irrelevant.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

nickgray said:


> But that's not the point. I mean sure, if you're programming a primitive 4/4 rock groove and then say it takes skill or that it's "as good as the real thing" - yes that's lazy, no questions there. I really don't think there are a lot of people who argue that programmed drums are as good or superior to a real drummer though. Programmed drums are used when a real drummer isn't available, simple as that. And more to the point - programming the drums. This is literally the same as composing percussion with pen and paper. Takes as much skill or as little skill and talent as the part you're composing. The issue is that this written music will not be performed by a real musician is irrelevant.


Ehhh..he's said quite often that if you need to fake the drums because it's all you've got then do so. He's talking about people..and there are a LOT of people...who just want automated everything so they don't have to do any work.

Studios are full of "Well can't you just copy it from the last one and paste it?" folks who want everything simple and fast and don't care about quality


----------



## Mathemagician

GunpointMetal said:


> If you can't do a loud pinch harmonic on your clean channel, learn how to do it correctly. If you can't play legato on your high e at the same volume as chugging on your low e without compression/distortion, learn how to do it correctly. If you can't make palm mutes sound chunky on the clean channel, learn how to do it correctly.



If you can’t do it on an unplugged electric guitar, go back to practicing. 



Matt08642 said:


> Christ those SMG videos are insufferable.
> 
> At a certain point it feels like we're dictating how an artist is doing something because it's difficult to "deal with". Willing to bet if I mention any artists specifically, someone would just say "They do that thing and they suck hahah roasted"
> 
> All places should have [thing that changes the sound]. Watch how many "[x]" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their [x]
> All places should have no compression. Watch how many "guitarists" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their fingerpicking
> All places should have a room mic only. Watch how many "bands" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their volume mix
> All places should have all the acoustic treatment in the room removed. Watch how many "literally any recorded role" suddenly sound like idiots because they can't fake their sound reflectivity
> 
> If you judge something someone's doing based on some old measure, it difficult to see it as a good measure and becomes a sort of gatekeeping. If the vision is distorting the mic by cupping it and screaming over poorly intonated guitars, that's their choice. It might sound like shit, but okie dokie.
> 
> While I'm at it, the audible difference between the Solar and the Mayones (7x the price) in this video is little more than an EQ difference:
> 
> $7000 guitars are memes.
> 
> This single thread has been the most fun I've had reading posts on SSO in years.




That solar needs EMG’s. And probably that Mayones too. Unless it already had them.


----------



## Vyn

If you need to cup the mic to get your sound, fuck off and actually get some vocal lessons/training. I'm yet to see one vocalist that cups the mic that actually has a safe screaming technique that won't result in a blown voice later down the track.


----------



## R34CH

StevenC said:


> there are only maybe 10 good death metal albums, and most of them came out in the 90s.





GunpointMetal said:


> That's just ridiculous.



You're right, he probably should have said 5 and that all of them are from the 90s.

And for my probably unpopular opinion:

Linkin Park's Meteora has some of the best guitar tones. Ever.

Damn, had to  at myself considering the ridiculous juxtaposition of opinions above...90s death authority but nu-metal tone lover


----------



## Matt08642

R34CH said:


> Linkin Park's Meteora has some of the best guitar tones. Ever.



Pretty sure it's just the late 90s/early 2000s Florida frat dude tone right? PRS in to a Dual Rec? Tremon-tone, if you will (aware he's not Floridian)

Another song people might not associate with sick tone, but this has the same combo:


----------



## gunch

Whatever Daron was using from S/T to Toxicity ruled too


----------



## I play music

Vyn said:


> If you need to cup the mic to get your sound, fuck off and actually get some vocal lessons/training. I'm yet to see one vocalist that cups the mic that actually has a safe screaming technique that won't result in a blown voice later down the track.


I don't see how this opinion is unpopular on a guitar forum. Maybe with wannabe vocalists. 
Some of my favourite vocalists also play guitar so they don't even have a free hand to cup the mic ;-)


----------



## Emperoff

gunch said:


> Whatever Daron was using from S/T to Toxicity ruled too



Toxicity's rythm tone is monstruously huge.


----------



## Vyn

I play music said:


> I don't see how this opinion is unpopular on a guitar forum. Maybe with wannabe vocalists.
> Some of my favourite vocalists also play guitar so they don't even have a free hand to cup the mic ;-)



I've seen more people defending cupping the mic than not over the years on various platforms which is just mindboggling. The amount of people who have blown their voice out with shity techniques when they could have just stopped, put in a little effort and have a sound that is not only safe, but sounds BETTER is just sad


----------



## I play music

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ehhh..he's said quite often that if you need to fake the drums because it's all you've got then do so. He's talking about people..and there are a LOT of people...who just want automated everything so they don't have to do any work.
> 
> Studios are full of "Well can't you just copy it from the last one and paste it?" folks who want everything simple and fast and don't care about quality


I think that's bullshit. I have yet to meet a drummer that does not want to play his stuff and is happy with programmed drums instead of him playing. 
Recording drums is just the only thing these days that is difficult at home. So arguing against programmed drums is probably the best way for a studio owner like the guy in the video to convince people to go to a studio. 
Guitars, bass, ... you don't need a studio to record them well. Bedroom also works.


----------



## BornToLooze

Fender really needs to make more hardtail strats.


----------



## c7spheres

- Although mic cupping isn't the proper way to do things and it's a pain to deal with, plenty of pro vocalists do it and have had success with it, until they learned the proper way I assume, but they still do it live a lot (at least they use to). To name a few: Pantera, Deftones, System of a Down, Linkin Park, Tool. I'm not saying they do it now or in the studio, but they sure as hell do (or at least did) do it live.
- I'm not saying these singers don't know what they're doing (quite the opposite) but they do use it at their discretion (imo) as a technique because you also notice them working the mic as well.

- It's a reality sound guys have to deal with and it's a technique/tool/crutch or whatever someone wants to call it that exsists and has to be adjusted for or dealt with either way.

- A good way to deal with someone like Phil Anselmo cupping and screaming into a mic is by using a good quality transformer based direct box such as a Radial JDI, and a pad before it hits the mic pre's. The transformer in the Di will have a natural saturation effect while holding the signal together in 1 piece and the pad will stabilize the signal before hitting the mic pre. 
- After that adjust levels to taste on mic pres, throw some eq, compression, gates, feedback destroyers, a little reverb, a slap back delay and some Chick-fil-a sauce in there and your golden.


----------



## c7spheres

- I'd almost bet just like with amp modellers most people couldn't tell the difference between real and programmed drums when done correctly, including Glenn. 
- By the time a real drum track is recorded, gated and processed it sounds like fake drums anyways. It's the performance that gives it away, not the sound, and if that performance is programed really well and the right samples are used then it can be convincing enough to fool the best of them. A lot of drummers are using samples and electric kits nowadays anyways. Elecric kits and samples are instruments too (imo).

- I think the sad reality is most people don't like actual real raw music any longer and they don't even realize it.
- Raw music is normally 4 or 5 guys in a band jamming into a recorder. No overdubs or post processing tricks at all. Only what is possible to achieve live without help. That's real. 
- If you need the sound guy and backing tracks to acheive what you do live, then they're part of your band. My point is that the band is the sum of it's parts, which includes all the gear and people/crew involved because without it they couldn't do it. That's why a band like Tool is an LLC. Because Tool isn't a band, it's an LLC with a payroll. The 4 dudes are just part of creative and live performance team which also happen to wear other decision making hats in that LLC too. It's why Lars and James make so much more than Kirk etc..


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> - I'd almost bet just like with amp modellers most people couldn't tell the difference between real and programmed drums when done correctly, including Glenn.
> - By the time a real drum track is recorded, gated and processed it sounds like fake drums anyways. It's the performance that gives it away, not the sound, and if that performance is programed really well and the right samples are used then it can be convincing enough to fool the best of them. A lot of drummers are using samples and electric kits nowadays anyways. Elecric kits and samples are instruments too (imo).
> 
> - I think the sad reality is most people don't like actual real raw music any longer and they don't even realize it.
> - Raw music is normally 4 or 5 guys in a band jamming into a recorder. No overdubs or post processing tricks at all. Only what is possible to achieve live without help. That's real.
> - If you need the sound guy and backing tracks to acheive what you do live, then they're part of your band. My point is that the band is the sum of it's parts, which includes all the gear and people/crew involved because without it they couldn't do it. That's why a band like Tool is an LLC. Because Tool isn't a band, it's an LLC with a payroll. The 4 dudes are just part of creative and live performance team which also happen to wear other decision making hats in that LLC too. It's why Lars and James make so much more than Kirk etc..



Honestly, I hate live bands with backing tracks, samplers, recorded overdubs/vocals/etc. It's just so fucking fake. If those parts are really important for a live show, get someone to do them, or don't do them at all and show what you really are.

Porcupine Tree, Pink Floyd, Rammstein... Their keyboard players are amazing and not fucking samplers. But hey, let's all complain about how autotune ruined music


----------



## budda

What is fake about a sample? Does anyone in the audience think it is really being recreated?

If your set starts with a line from a movie, do people feel ripped off that the actor didnt fly in and say the line in person?

Backing tracks and overdubs make sense from a "but they dont have those people on stage" but should that really detract from enjoyment if it sonically improves the show?


----------



## BornToLooze

Emperoff said:


> Honestly, I hate live bands with backing tracks, samplers, recorded overdubs/vocals/etc. It's just so fucking fake. If those parts are really important for a live show, get someone to do them, or don't do them at all and show what you really are.
> 
> Porcupine Tree, Pink Floyd, Rammstein... Their keyboard players are amazing and not fucking samplers. But hey, let's all complain about how autotune ruined music



Honestly, the main thing I like about live version of songs is taking a song that had like 20 tracks on the album and cutting it all down to 2-3 guitar parts. It makes it a lot easier to figure out which parts of the song I need to learn and what I can cut out.

Other than that, present your art however you want to.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> I think that's bullshit. I have yet to meet a drummer that does not want to play his stuff and is happy with programmed drums instead of him playing.
> Recording drums is just the only thing these days that is difficult at home. So arguing against programmed drums is probably the best way for a studio owner like the guy in the video to convince people to go to a studio.
> Guitars, bass, ... you don't need a studio to record them well. Bedroom also works.



Yeah...it's not some mass studio owner conspiracy. Coming from someone who's worked with lots of studio owners and seen the shit for myself. LOTS of bands, especially those with shitty drummers, want to fake the drums. It happens all the time.

Everyone wants to be better than they really are, so they make albums they can't reproduce in reality...which is just lying in audio form.

Now if you don't have a drummer and you're doing what you have to do. Fine. If you're doing your own recording and you fake the drums because you can't record your drummer but it's shit he can actually play, cool.

But this idea of wanting to sound like the best band in the world when in reality the band is horrendous and can't play the shit they click pasted to death on the album? Lame.

Not to mention, real performances and taking time to actually make a good album seems to be less and less of a thing. Everyone just wants instant gratification and to press an app and make it all easy.

People who study studio stuff and have a deep appreciation for the "magic" that goes into great albums are nerds about that kind of stuff. And I'm glad they are. There's a reason that legendary albums have that status and it's not just the band.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> What is fake about a sample? Does anyone in the audience think it is really being recreated?
> 
> If your set starts with a line from a movie, do people feel ripped off that the actor didnt fly in and say the line in person?
> 
> Backing tracks and overdubs make sense from a "but they dont have those people on stage" but should that really detract from enjoyment if it sonically improves the show?



I dunno. Maybe because of the music I do, I don't see the big deal.

I do industrial music. Do you know how many tracks go into a single song I make? It would take multiple drummers, keyboardists, backup singers, etc to recreate that. I'm not running an orchestra.

I make the backing tracks for the samples and instruments that can't be played and my band handles the rest. I don't even have a drummer. At the moment there's no reason to have one and trying to work one into the band is an extra person to pay for what would essentially be triggering the same damn samples on my backing track. Why?


----------



## USMarine75

nickgray said:


> I really don't think there are a lot of people who argue that programmed drums are as good or superior to a real drummer though.



Well... it’s in the name.


----------



## c7spheres

- If I record and thousand tracks, push play, and walk off stage is it a performance, a statement or both? 
- Is the White Albums' cover a statement, art, or both? 
- Is a wooden instruments first sound the one it makes when the tree it's made from falls in the forest?

I should have put these in the Deep Thoughts thread, but are these even deep thoughts?


----------



## gnoll

budda said:


> What is fake about a sample? Does anyone in the audience think it is really being recreated?
> 
> If your set starts with a line from a movie, do people feel ripped off that the actor didnt fly in and say the line in person?
> 
> Backing tracks and overdubs make sense from a "but they dont have those people on stage" but should that really detract from enjoyment if it sonically improves the show?



I think live music should be live. Not because anything else is "cheating" or "fake" or whatever but because once you start using click tracks, backing tracks and so on an aspect of the music disappears. Hearing someone play along to a backing track with guitar harmonies, orchestral samples and so on does not appeal to me as much as hearing a bunch of musicians play music together.


----------



## Mathemagician

budda said:


> What is fake about a sample? Does anyone in the audience think it is really being recreated?
> 
> If your set starts with a line from a movie, do people feel ripped off that the actor didnt fly in and say the line in person?
> 
> Backing tracks and overdubs make sense from a "but they dont have those people on stage" but should that really detract from enjoyment if it sonically improves the show?



Some people only go to a show to watch 4-5 musicians play standing still.

I want to see a production with an electric chair and guys Karate kick-jumping off amp towers. Or if they’re older than 30, at least running around and interacting with the crowd a bunch.

Rammstein Live could literally be 5 guys with flamethrowers and I’d it would be an amazing show.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mathemagician said:


> Some people only go to a show to watch 4-5 musicians play standing still.
> 
> I want to see a production with an electric chair and guys Karate kick-jumping off amp towers. Or if they’re older than 30, at least running around and interacting with the crowd a bunch.
> 
> Rammstein Live could literally be 5 guys with flamethrowers and I’d it would be an amazing show.



This


----------



## Wuuthrad

I like the sound of good music and the tools that make it aren’t as important as the quality of sound or song. I prefer live to 2 track or mono more than anything, be it old folk or black metal. But I also listen to “overproduced” music that is very good as well.

Absolutely just my opinion, but I don’t have any problem with drum machines or programming. It’s really hard to play drums and stand out in a tight band, let alone record them well and sound good in a virtuosic band (drums are mostly backup instrument anyway & when used digitally even more,) and “cut and paste” digital production is same as any other style of recorded music- it’s just a tool some people use better than others! It can sometimes be so virtuosic as to make heads explode! 

It’s definitely contributed to to the low end in music production over the years. Lots more bass frequencies in production over the last 20-30 years. Also detrimentally the overuse of “normalization, maximization” and subsequent and/or concurrent loss of dynamic range in much recorded music.

Digital vs Analog doesn’t matter other than the players preference- all sound is analog when coming through a speaker anyway.

Ultimately there is no substitute for live music- and the Allman Brothers Live album is more essential listening than almost any other piece of recorded music for how to play live electric guitar.

Wasn’t a side effect of the advent of streaming music supposedly to kill the record industry and make live music the real deal? Interesting that streaming has actually reduced much of the quality of recorded music!

Certainly nothing wrong with “entertainment” though...

Who wouldn’t play backup guitar for Shakira? Sounds like a good gig!


----------



## Wuuthrad

Tube amps are inefficient, overpriced and unnecessary for high gain guitar sounds. 

Same or better sound can be made with solid state and digital effects.


----------



## c7spheres

I would love to play backup guitar for Shakira, though I'd probably lose my spot a lot. Standing behind her on stage like that would make my guitar, um.. "unbalanced".


----------



## _MonSTeR_

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I dunno. Maybe because of the music I do, I don't see the big deal.
> 
> I do industrial music. Do you know how many tracks go into a single song I make? It would take multiple drummers, keyboardists, backup singers, etc to recreate that. I'm not running an orchestra.
> 
> I make the backing tracks for the samples and instruments that can't be played and my band handles the rest. I don't even have a drummer. At the moment there's no reason to have one and trying to work one into the band is an extra person to pay for what would essentially be triggering the same damn samples on my backing track. Why?



I agree here, if the music calls for samples “going in” to make the original track, then when it’s time to play it live, it should have samples “going out”.

If there’s no drummer on the original, why on earth would there need to be one on stage?


----------



## SexHaver420

There are people on this website that unironically defend cupping the mic or playing quietly with small amps.

I bet you guys don't even ask yourself "what would our Lord and Savior Lemmy Kilmister do" before you pick up an instrument.

I am disgusted and I hope all of you do some deep soul searching and realize the truth.

Also if your band writes anything you can't play live because too many tracks or something you're posers. Never write anything you can't pull off or refuse to play live.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SexHaver420 said:


> Also if your band writes anything you can't play live because too many tracks or something you're posers. Never write anything you can't pull off or refuse to play live.



I agree. That's why backing tracks, synth programming and samples exist


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> I would love to play backup guitar for Shakira, though I'd probably lose my spot a lot. Standing behind her on stage like that would make my guitar, um.. "unbalanced".



I used to have dancers in one of my bands, and yeah, staring too much at them could cause... distractions


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> I think live music should be live. Not because anything else is "cheating" or "fake" or whatever but because once you start using click tracks, backing tracks and so on an aspect of the music disappears. Hearing someone play along to a backing track with guitar harmonies, orchestral samples and so on does not appeal to me as much as hearing a bunch of musicians play music together.



You ever watched a band with an album you love play a terrible set due to booze and/or drugs? Backing tracks and samples are not the issue.


----------



## StevenC

gnoll said:


> I think live music should be live. Not because anything else is "cheating" or "fake" or whatever but because once you start using click tracks, backing tracks and so on an aspect of the music disappears. Hearing someone play along to a backing track with guitar harmonies, orchestral samples and so on does not appeal to me as much as hearing a bunch of musicians play music together.


So what about loop pedals or harmony pedals or guitar synths?


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I agree. That's why backing tracks, synth programming and samples exist



This is also the norm for electronic music. Very often, it's just one dude triggering sequencers/samples/synths, maybe some occasional playing, and lots of knob twisting. This is accepted and nobody seems to care, at least not too much, that there aren't instead 20 dudes pushing buttons and twisting knobs instead of just the one.

The problem is the music itself and the reality of music business. If you're a 4 piece heavy metal band you probably don't need any backing tracks or anything like that, makes no sense. If you're making more complicated music - well, you can either hire more players and go into debt, or use samples and backing tracks. Or just not play at all. I think samples and backing tracks are a way better option though. Another problem - what if your band member got sick or something? Would you play without a bass player, or put a backing track instead? The backing track in this case is a far better option for the audience, at least imo.

Plus, there's also a disconnect between recorded music and performed music. Obviously, in the past, all music was performed. Someone had to physically play an instrument in real time for people to hear music. Recording changed that drastically - not only you could hear music coming from a speaker, but you could also record music in takes, and with the advent of digital recording, the amount of crazy "unrealistic" shit you could pull off is endless. For popular music (non classical, anything that propagates via recorded medium, not via sheet music), studio albums are the propagation medium, so to speak. Not live music. Live music typically attempts to recapture what you've heard through your speakers/headphones when you heard the studio album.


----------



## USMarine75

I like my drums like I like my TDS libtards... triggered. 

#MDGA


----------



## gnoll

budda said:


> You ever watched a band with an album you love play a terrible set due to booze and/or drugs? Backing tracks and samples are not the issue.



That just seems besides the point though. "The" issue? How about "one" issue?



StevenC said:


> So what about loop pedals or harmony pedals or guitar synths?



*Shrug*

I'm not trying to be the music police drawing a line between what's allowed and what's not allowed. I'm just saying for me generally backing tracks take away from rather than add to the music.


----------



## USMarine75

So is this performance any less fanfuckingtastic?


----------



## nickgray

USMarine75 said:


> So is this performance any less fanfuckingtastic?



Yup. Guitar clinics where players play to backing tracks is also pretty normal and non-controversial (obviously, there's also the Q&A part and all that, but still). Pretty sure lots of people would pay to see Devin alone performing to backing tracks as well. I reckon the problem is that your shitty local band that puts a show with two out of five players present, is not exactly Devin Townsend.

You know, I think it's an unexplored area with lots of potential if done right. I'd pay to see quite a lot of artists playing to just backing tracks, provided the price is right and it's done correctly, kinda like guitar clinics, I guess.


----------



## USMarine75

nickgray said:


> Yup. Guitar clinics where players play to backing tracks is also pretty normal and non-controversial (obviously, there's also the Q&A part and all that, but still). Pretty sure lots of people would pay to see Devin alone performing to backing tracks as well. I reckon the problem is that your shitty local band that puts a show with two out of five players present, is not exactly Devin Townsend.
> 
> You know, I think it's an unexplored area with lots of potential if done right. I'd pay to see quite a lot of artists playing to just backing tracks, provided the price is right and it's done correctly, kinda like guitar clinics, I guess.



Exactly. Guys like Nick Johnston, PG, and Greg Koch make a living out of clinics. 

I’d argue Devin was every bit as good at Axe Palace all by himself as he was in concert. Different but equally as good IMO (like you said - when done right).


----------



## Mathemagician

I mean if a band is playing and there’s only one guitarist but a solo is coming up, I fully expect there to be a rhythm track during the solos, and when there’s harmonies I would expect a sample/backing track as well. Otherwise you get massive drop offs where it sounds empty or where there’s missing parts. So yeah, live I just want a good show and I don’t care what a group of people trying to make it while playing music have to do to make the experience great. Live =/= In the Studio.


----------



## c7spheres

- Although mic cupping isn't the proper way to do things and it's a pain to deal with, plenty of pro vocalists do it and have had success with it, until they learned the proper way I assume, but they still do it live a lot (at least they use to). To name a few: Pantera, Deftones, System of a Down, Linkin Park, Tool. I'm not saying they do it now or in the studio, but they sure as hell do (or at least did) do it live.
- I'm not saying these singers don't know what they're doing (quite the opposite) but they do use it at their discretion (imo) as a technique because you also notice them working the mic as well.

- It's a reality sound guys have to deal with and it's a technique/tool/crutch or whatever someone wants to call it that exsists and has to be adjusted for or dealt with either way.

- A good way to deal with someone like Phil Anselmo cupping and screaming into a mic is by using a good quality transformer based direct box such as a Radial JDI, and a pad before it hits the mic pre's. The transformer in the Di will have a natural saturation effect while holding the signal together in 1 piece and the pad will stabilize the signal before hitting the mic pre.
- After that adjust levels to taste on mic pres, throw some eq, compression, gates, feedback destroyers, a little reverb, a slap back delay and some Chick-fil-a sauce in there and your golden.




Mathemagician said:


> I mean if a band is playing and there’s only one guitarist but a solo is coming up, I fully expect there to be a rhythm track during the solos, and when there’s harmonies I would expect a sample/backing track as well. Otherwise you get massive drop offs where it sounds empty or where there’s missing parts. So yeah, live I just want a good show and I don’t care what a group of people trying to make it while playing music have to do to make the experience great. Live =/= In the Studio.




Pantera, Ozzy, Sabbath, Tool, Zeppelin all did it well without backing guitar tracks but it does sometimes sound better with the rhythm guitar too I'd agree.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

c7spheres said:


> Pantera, Ozzy, Sabbath, Tool, Zeppelin all did it well without backing guitar tracks but it does sometimes sound better with the rhythm guitar too I'd agree.



We also need to remember that "then" isn't "now". When I was last playing out, which is a long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away), "normal" bands didn't have access to samples and backing tracks. 

Before the digital revolution, you hauled your amp, your pedals and your guitar to each gig and that was it, and the fact that you needed something to fill the musical void during a guitar solo was one of the reasons why "two guitar" bands or even bands with guitar and keyboards were so popular.


----------



## Gmork

Unpopular opinion: The boss ds2 turbo distortion sounds awesome and even compares to a lot of the modern day favorites.
So cool, mode 1 has kind of a smooth fat fuzz sort of tone while mode 2 is more raw, brighter, tighter with boosted high mids.
I think its pretty great!
And boosted!!! Omg!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

_MonSTeR_ said:


> We also need to remember that "then" isn't "now". When I was last playing out, which is a long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away), "normal" bands didn't have access to samples and backing tracks.
> 
> Before the digital revolution, you hauled your amp, your pedals and your guitar to each gig and that was it, and the fact that you needed something to fill the musical void during a guitar solo was one of the reasons why "two guitar" bands or even bands with guitar and keyboards were so popular.



What were dinosaurs like, grandpa?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Gmork said:


> Unpopular opinion: The boss ds2 turbo distortion sounds awesome and even compares to a lot of the modern day favorites.
> So cool, mode 1 has kind of a smooth fat fuzz sort of tone while mode 2 is more raw, brighter, tighter with boosted high mids.
> I think its pretty great!
> And boosted!!! Omg!


I kind of want one. And a Turbo Overdrive.


----------



## Gmork

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I kind of want one. And a Turbo Overdrive.


I had a ds2 20 years ago and had fond memories, mind you i really didnt know shit about gear, was too poor to afford ANYTHING, didnt even have an amp and was playing into an old cassette tape recorder hooked up to old stereo speakers, would get my gain from cranking the input, was super ghetto punk lol

But anyway i saved up and got the ds2 and it blew me away. Though my life was insane back then and it was soon lost. 
Ive always thought of getting another one over the years and found one cheap recently, figured what the hell for old times sake expecting to be disappointed, thought id turn it on and be met with a total shit tone but even now with my bogner, 6505, engl, tightmetal etc etc etc...
It actually kinda blew me away all over again! Its legit a solid sounding pedal imho


----------



## Decapitated

Dunno if this has been said yet...but...the EVH 5153 50 watt DOES NOT sound good at low/bedroom volumes.


----------



## Matt08642

Decapitated said:


> Dunno if this has been said yet...but...the EVH 5153 50 watt DOES NOT sound good at low/bedroom volumes.



I know tons of bands use them, but I just think they sound inferior to the OG Peavey


----------



## youngthrasher9

It’s been a few pages but imma say it again:

I think cheap rosewood fretboards murder the tone of many guitars. I’ve yet to own a midrange guitar with rosewood that didn’t sound super round and undefined in the low end.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> What were dinosaurs like, grandpa?



They all had Marshall JCM half stacks and nothing but Boss pedals and were grateful for them


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

And they stole a bunch of Gary Moore, John Sykes, and Michael Schenker licks.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Playing guitar was how losers got laid, and nowadays plugins are for posers. Guitar amps and pedals are the only real way to play!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

youngthrasher9 said:


> It’s been a few pages but imma say it again:
> 
> I think cheap rosewood fretboards murder the tone of many guitars. I’ve yet to own a midrange guitar with rosewood that didn’t sound super round and undefined in the low end.



Hmm. This is an interesting take.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Going back to that whole thing about musicians trying to cheap out in the studio...

I'm currently doing a project where I record random riffing in my DAW with no song idea in mind, and using whatever I played to make full songs. I take the guitars, chop them up into what's essentially samples and make new riffs out of what's there and arrange them in different ways. Unless I come up with something I really like and want to add a harmonizing layer, I don't record two tracks. I just take the same track and pan it on the other side with some eq differences and maybe adjust it ever so slightly. I'm purposely trying to take organic playing and make it as mechanical as possible.

The result is the heaviest stuff I've ever done and I'm loving it.


----------



## StevenC

c7spheres said:


> Pantera, Ozzy, Sabbath, Tool, Zeppelin all did it well without backing guitar tracks but it does sometimes sound better with the rhythm guitar too I'd agree.


On the other hand there are later Zeppelin songs with tonnes of guitar tracks that don't have good live versions available. 

I'm not saying the reason for that wasn't cocaine, but it could have been helped by backing tracks.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

youngthrasher9 said:


> It’s been a few pages but imma say it again:
> 
> I think cheap rosewood fretboards murder the tone of many guitars. I’ve yet to own a midrange guitar with rosewood that didn’t sound super round and undefined in the low end.



I think it's just cheap wood in general. I bought a brand new Kramer Baretta that should have been the brightest fucking guitar in the world. Floyd Rose bridge, Duncan JB, ***ALL*** maple construction, bolt on neck...

Nah, was a dead, muddy plank. I went through the electronics and everything was fine. Wired the damn pickups straight to the jack and it was still dead.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Touring members > backing tracks

It's 2020, there are more skilled and varied musicians with tour ready gear and communication is easier than any other time in human history. The only reason to go for backing tracks vs. touring musicians is money. 

It also says something about the band when they can't write for their capabilities, or on the flip side, can't compensate for the live show for certain parts that are somewhat beyond what they have at hand. 

Nirvana had Pat Smear play the main guitar parts while Kurt fucked around and made the show enjoyable. Rex Brown's live bass tone was so huge and thick that Dime could solo for days before anyone would miss a second guitar.


----------



## Andromalia

Or you just don't record stuff you can't replay live. Maiden albums didn't have a third rythm guitar behind the harmonies. (They sometimes do now because they have three guitarists... and they actually added a third melody to some songs live because adding rythm would just be odd)

Devin Townsend is the perfect exemple of needing a lot of dudes on stage to achieve the desired sound.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MaxOfMetal said:


> Rex Brown's live bass tone was so huge and thick that Dime could solo for days before anyone would miss a second guitar.


 That's why it's good to have fucking huge-sounding bassists in a 3-piece/4-piece. like Rush, King's X and AiC. Where you have one guitar doing their lead shit, and a bassist with a crunchy, compressed, midrangey sound to make up for the missing guitar frequencies.


----------



## teqnick

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Going back to that whole thing about musicians trying to cheap out in the studio...
> 
> I'm currently doing a project where I record random riffing in my DAW with no song idea in mind, and using whatever I played to make full songs. I take the guitars, chop them up into what's essentially samples and make new riffs out of what's there and arrange them in different ways. Unless I come up with something I really like and want to add a harmonizing layer, I don't record two tracks. I just take the same track and pan it on the other side with some eq differences and maybe adjust it ever so slightly. I'm purposely trying to take organic playing and make it as mechanical as possible.
> 
> The result is the heaviest stuff I've ever done and I'm loving it.


This is a cool approach. I've been wanting to try it out.

p.s , nice to see you're still around, Drak. RIP the 2010 SSO chat


----------



## Matt08642

ITT: Every band should be a 4 piece thrash band from the 80s and if you need any other sounds at all on an album, you better plan on adding an additional full human being to a tour bus + expand the budget to make your art valid

I'm not sure Periphery ever toured with a violinist but they had a song with a violin intro, which I'm sure they sampled live - Does this invalidate them as a band? Inb4 "NO THEIR MUSIC DOES HUR HUR HUR"

If they have a "DJ" tour with them who just plays the sample, does this make it more valid? What if the drummer triggers a sample with part of his kit? Where's the threshold for validity when using sound in music?



Steve Vai is a poser for sampling in this song, right? Because he can't recreate it live without the use of the samples?

My 777th post mentioning Vai, the planets have aligned for this.


----------



## DudeManBrother

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Going back to that whole thing about musicians trying to cheap out in the studio...
> 
> I'm currently doing a project where I record random riffing in my DAW with no song idea in mind, and using whatever I played to make full songs. I take the guitars, chop them up into what's essentially samples and make new riffs out of what's there and arrange them in different ways. Unless I come up with something I really like and want to add a harmonizing layer, I don't record two tracks. I just take the same track and pan it on the other side with some eq differences and maybe adjust it ever so slightly. I'm purposely trying to take organic playing and make it as mechanical as possible.
> 
> The result is the heaviest stuff I've ever done and I'm loving it.


I’m doing something somewhat similar. I’ve started a solo grindcore recording project where I basically play one take 40-60 second blast beats and breakdowns (with my midi keyboard ), then go right over the top with one take guitar left, and one take guitar right, vocals etc. Nothing is planned out, and I have to try to remember what I did on the first track, because I’m keeping whatever was recorded. I’ve essentially got 10 mins to track the whole song. 

From there I sample the audio I just laid down for atmospheric elements and sauce up the song with aux sends; but I keep the raw tracks as they were recorded.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Matt08642 said:


> ITT: Every band should be a 4 piece thrash band from the 80s and if you need any other sounds at all on an album, you better plan on adding an additional full human being to a tour bus + expand the budget to make your art valid
> 
> I'm not sure Periphery ever toured with a violinist but they had a song with a violin intro, which I'm sure they sampled live - Does this invalidate them as a band? Inb4 "NO THEIR MUSIC DOES HUR HUR HUR"
> 
> If they have a "DJ" tour with them who just plays the sample, does this make it more valid? What if the drummer triggers a sample with part of his kit? Where's the threshold for validity when using sound in music?



I don't think small standalone parts are what anyone is talking about. 

But if 1/4 or 1/5 of the audio you hear live is pre-recorded, I don't know. I don't think I'd have as much fun, but it depends on the artist. 

I don't think either approach takes away from the "validity" of anything. I just rather see live music live. If I wanted to hear a recording, I'd listen to the recording. 

I think we're having a different conversation based on this post.


----------



## BenjaminW

_MonSTeR_ said:


> They all had Marshall JCM half stacks and nothing but Boss pedals and were grateful for them





Spaced Out Ace said:


> And they stole a bunch of Gary Moore, John Sykes, and Michael Schenker licks.


Damn, I must be a dinosaur then.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I have two rosewood guitars and have had rosewoods in the past. Neither was muddy.


----------



## I play music

Matt08642 said:


> Steve Vai is a poser for sampling in this song, right? Because he can't recreate it live without the use of the samples?


If Steve Vai is not a poser then I really don't know


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I play music said:


> If Steve Vai is not a poser then I really don't know



Steve is an overly extravagant and flamboyant showman, yes. But he's anything but a poser.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's why it's good to have fucking huge-sounding bassists in a 3-piece/4-piece. like Rush, King's X and AiC. Where you have one guitar doing their lead shit, and a bassist with a crunchy, compressed, midrangey sound to make up for the missing guitar frequencies.




Just retweeting because you rep’ed AIC and Kings X.


----------



## youngthrasher9

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I have two rosewood guitars and have had rosewoods in the past. Neither was muddy.



It’s not an exclusive thing, at all. I just personally don’t like to gamble anymore buying guitars before playing them. 
My brother has an Ibanez S420. Cheap wood, cheap electronics, cheap hardware. That thing sounds tight, loud, and pissed off. My best friend has an LTD EC1000 with a rosewood board, same thing. But personally, all the dead guitars I’ve purchased were rocking rosewood as the only outstanding variable from my other guitars. Hell, most of them were made in the same factories. (WMI?)


----------



## gnoll

youngthrasher9 said:


> all the dead guitars I’ve purchased were rocking rosewood



But rosewood is a really common fretboard wood so that doesn't seem very surprising.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Wood isn't nearly as predictable as folks like to think it is. It's a natural material and can vary significantly in structure and weight. 

Very few processed and manufactured things in general, especially as complex as a musical instrument, have the capacity to be perfectly identical even under the most strict of QA/QC measures.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


> Just retweeting because you rep’ed AIC and Kings X.



They're THE bands people need to pay attention to when you're dealing with single-guitar bands. The bassists' sounds are so massive that the guitarists can doodle all day and there isn't anything missing sonically.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Hagstrom resonator fretboard (a 50/50 wood composite) is a better playing board.

To me there’s more consistency of feel, and I think the sound of electric guitar is not as variable compared to acoustic or classical guitars, especially regarding different fretboards’ wood.

(It’s much more noticeable on an acoustic instrument but is barely noticeable on electric to my ears. It’s all about feel and looks come in 3rd.)

Guitars are a sum of all parts, and a composite is going to provide more consistent tone and playability than any piece of wood, which can also sound and play great obviously, and we would be remiss not to consider the element of sustainability in guitar production.

Gibson also makes a composite called Richlite, but I’ve never had a chance to play one. I’m pretty certain other makers have used composites as well.

It’s been said that a lot of the good rosewood has been used up already and the newer growth stuff, as it were, is more variable in consistency. There are many different species of “rosewood” being used. 

Pau Ferro, an alternative to rosewood, which is often slagged off, to me would have been better marketed by its North American name: “Ironwood!”

I believe Guitarists are, generally speaking, mired in tradition, and a bit of smoke and mirrors re. Wood anyway, as far as I can tell.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Wuuthrad said:


> Hagstrom resonator fretboard (a 50/50 wood composite) is a better playing board.
> 
> To me there’s more consistency of feel, and I think the sound of electric guitar is not as variable compared to acoustic or classical guitars, especially regarding different fretboards’ wood.
> 
> (It’s much more noticeable on an acoustic instrument but is barely noticeable on electric to my ears. It’s all about feel and looks come in 3rd.)
> 
> Guitars are a sum of all parts, and a composite is going to provide more consistent tone and playability than any piece of wood, which can also sound and play great obviously, and we would be remiss not to consider the element of sustainability in guitar production.
> 
> Gibson also makes a composite called Richlite, but I’ve never had a chance to play one. I’m pretty certain other makers have used composites as well.
> 
> It’s been said that a lot of the good rosewood has been used up already and the newer growth stuff, as it were, is more variable in consistency. There are many different species of “rosewood” being used.
> 
> Pau Ferro, an alternative to rosewood, which is often slagged off, to me would have been better marketed by its North American name: “Ironwood!”
> 
> I believe Guitarists are, generally speaking, mired in tradition, and a bit of smoke and mirrors re. Wood anyway, as far as I can tell.



Richlite is not Gibson's creation, in fact most composites used for guitars aren't proprietary, it's a commercially available building material.


----------



## Wuuthrad

MaxOfMetal said:


> Richlite is not Gibson's creation, in fact most composites used for guitars aren't proprietary, it's a commercially available building material.



Good to know! I haven’t worked in the building trades for over 20 years, and I think this is a great resourcing of materials for the guitar industry. Doesn’t seem to be catching on though...


----------



## youngthrasher9

Two of my favorite sounding guitars that I didn’t own had composite fretboards. The Gibson Midtown Custom, and a Martin acoustic that I can’t remember the name of. Tried them both in guitar center and was absolutely blown away.


----------



## Vyn

'Tone wood' is bullshit. What the more likely case is, is that people are susceptible to psychoacoustics, ie hearing with their eyes.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Vyn said:


> 'Tone wood' is bullshit. What the more likely case is, is that people are susceptible to psychoacoustics, ie hearing with their eyes.


----------



## Phlegethon

Vyn said:


> 'Tone wood' is bullshit. What the more likely case is, is that people are susceptible to psychoacoustics, ie hearing with their eyes.



Was going to post this earlier today but I was beat to the punch. Tone woods on a solid body guitar mean three tenths of nothing, there's no acoustics to physically amplify. Can post the other bit I was going to say at least. The only things that have an effect on actually altering the voice of a solid body electric are: scale length, string type, pickup type, and what material is making the strings move (fingers vs. plastic pick .... etc).


----------



## Matt08642

Vyn said:


> 'Tone wood' is bullshit. What the more likely case is, is that people are susceptible to psychoacoustics, ie hearing with their eyes.





Seabeast2000 said:


>


----------



## Seabeast2000

Matt08642 said:


> View attachment 84458


----------



## Wuuthrad

Vyn said:


> 'Tone wood' is bullshit. What the more likely case is, is that people are susceptible to psychoacoustics, ie hearing with their eyes.



Ever played a Luthier made Classical?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Are we still pretending that calling out "tone wood" bullshit in 2020 is edgy? 

Shit, it's been the same "debate" since before the internet.


----------



## Adieu

Vyn said:


> 'Tone wood' is bullshit. What the more likely case is, is that people are susceptible to psychoacoustics, ie hearing with their eyes.



"TONE" wood is sorta-bullshit... but maple and alder fucking rule

So tonewood sucks, not because no difference but because "home depot" wood crushes it!


----------



## Vyn

Wuuthrad said:


> Ever played a Luthier made Classical?



I have actually. My uncle is a classical guitarist with some VERY boutique stuff. Classical is far less about the wood and more about the construction. He's got one particular guitar made by an Australian dude that has an almost paper thin top re-enforced with a carbon fibre lattice and very thick back/sides. That thing is fucking loud and resonant as all hell.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Me, an industrial musician, while everyone is discussing backing tracks and whether or not it's right


----------



## Vyn

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Me, an industrial musician, while everyone is discussing backing tracks and whether or not it's right



I mean if they hate backing tracks and samples that much, that means they should hate Fear Factory right?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Vyn said:


> I mean if they hate backing tracks and samples that much, that means they should hate Fear Factory right?



Maybe I'm just biased.

I grew up watching Marilyn Manson and this motherfucker didn't do shit but wrestle an unplugged midi controller on a spring while backing tracks did all his work.


----------



## Vyn

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Maybe I'm just biased.
> 
> I grew up watching Marilyn Manson and this motherfucker didn't do shit but wrestle an unplugged midi controller on a spring while backing tracks did all his work.



Manson live shows are the shit. Dude knows how to perform.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Maybe I'm just biased.
> 
> I grew up watching Marilyn Manson and this motherfucker didn't do shit but wrestle an unplugged midi controller on a spring while backing tracks did all his work.


If he wasn't doing anything, then Marilyn should've shitcanned him and saved himself some money.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If he wasn't doing anything, then Marilyn should've shitcanned him and saved himself some money.



He did.

However Pogo was more useful in the studio and was great at sound design and whatnot. He'd just do all that at home, load it up as backing tracks so all his work was done before the tour even started. Then he'd just get on stage and be weird for an hour.


----------



## Shask

Vyn said:


> Manson live shows are the shit. Dude knows how to perform.


Saw the Antichrist tour a few times, and the Holywood Tour. Some of the best shows I ever saw!

Speaking of big production shows, Manson, Rammstein, White Zombie, Rob Zombie, etc... were some of the most memorable shows I have seen, and all because of the big production.

After that, next is probably the wackiest, like, like Mindless Self Indulgence.


----------



## vilk

My first real concert was Goldfinger at the House of Blues when I was 12 and the drummer had a volunteer from the audience eat a Twinkie out of his butthole.

Uhhh sorry I don't have a point to that story. We were talking about how live bands playing their instruments is boring, right?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

vilk said:


> My first real concert was Goldfinger at the House of Blues when I was 12 and the drummer had a volunteer from the audience eat a Twinkie out of his butthole.
> 
> Uhhh sorry I don't have a point to that story. We were talking about how live bands playing their instruments is boring, right?



At a gig I stood a naked dude on his head and stuck a cucumber in his butt and ate it.

The cucumber went in surprisingly easy


----------



## DudeManBrother

You ate his butt cucumber, or he did?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

DudeManBrother said:


> You ate his butt cucumber, or he did?


Well...I ate it out of his butt.

Goodtimes...goodtimes


----------



## Vyn

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> At a gig I stood a naked dude on his head and stuck a cucumber in his butt and ate it.
> 
> The cucumber went in surprisingly easy



This has got to be the quote of the day.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

This is about as SFW as I could find...the end result was us pouring a bucket of "puke" on him


----------



## narad

At first I didn't see quotes around "puke" and I nearly puked looking at that. Iiiiicckkkk.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

narad said:


> At first I didn't see quotes around "puke" and I nearly puked looking at that. Iiiiicckkkk.



Avoid my band's first video...dude got his face shoved into actual puke lol


----------



## BenjaminW

Alright two quick opinions about Fender/Fender Mod Shop:


When it comes to humbuckers, it really bothers me that Fender’s screw config for Strats is 2 on top, 1 on bottom instead of 1 and 1 and it also bothers me that they tend to use zebra colored pickups more than I feel like they should
Fender Mod Shop should give me the option to choose the American Ultra neck heel in addition to the standard square heel. Normally I’m not too crazy about neck heels or whatever, but I just feel like the Ultra looks/feels better than the standard.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Uh... thanks for sharing, Dr. Tornanus.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Vyn said:


> I have actually. My uncle is a classical guitarist with some VERY boutique stuff. Classical is far less about the wood and more about the construction. He's got one particular guitar made by an Australian dude that has an almost paper thin top re-enforced with a carbon fibre lattice and very thick back/sides. That thing is fucking loud and resonant as all hell.



Sounds like a very cool guitar; is it a Smallman?

I have to agree and disagree- the facts, as far is understand, will show it’s both construction and wood that determine a guitars sound.

For example traditional fan bracing ala Torres (who used spruce, maple, or rosewood back and sides, or even newspaper to prove a point that b&s don’t matter as much as people think,) Ramirez fan bracing (who popularized the use of cedar,) Lattice bracing, double tops (which can have both and use nomex or wood in between,) and many more.

Many people favor traditional fan bracing and choose between spruce or cedar tops, with Brazilian Rosewood being the most sought after (and depleted/endangered) and $$$$ species for back and sides. It’s not all about volume but more intimate tone for some players. Concert players and competition players often go for louder guitars with more projection like double tops.

The two main top woods not only differ in tonal and harmonic characteristics (spruce being bright with more fundamentals, cedar being warm or dark with more harmonic overtones) make each a preferred sound for different classical repertoire and player preference.

I know this from many years (several decades) of playing studying and listening. Bach sounds better in a Spruce topped maple b&s guitar (more fundamentals allow the complex polyphony to not get lost in the mix so to speak) and Spanish Romantic music typically sounds better played on a “traditional” Segovia style Cedar top Rosewood back and sides. It’s a darker sound with more reverb like tonality. 

The cellular structure of these two top woods have been studied scientifically for decades to determine their properties, and it has been demonstrated that their are in fact certain differences between species which contribute to their sound. However it’s still possible to have a spruce that sounds like cedar and vice versa.

Also given the history of guitar making, consider that some of the first Gibson electrics were ES models (Electric Spanish) and it is not to hard to assume that the qualities of classical guitar luthery have crossed over into electric guitar making, although practically speaking there is much less of a difference tonally.

But there certainly is a difference- otherwise why aren’t electric guitars made entirely of the cheapest materials like plastics or metals?

Also consider Flamenco players, whose virtuosity more closely resembles shredding than classical guitarists- they use almost exclusively Cypress b&S and Spruce, which give a percussive attack and very little sustain.

All in all I have to conclude that to say tone wood is BS is in itself BS it’s not really a debate at all.

But right or wrong (not at all what matters) it’s certainly ok for everyone to have their own opinion! Everybody can play whatever guitar they want- it’s the music that matters!

Just look at Romanillos whose guitars are worth 10s of thousands- he said Cedar should never be used in guitars and left to siding houses! lol

Then you have Ramirez who said Stradivarius would have used Western Red Cedar had he known about it.

So even then, at the end of the day there’s at least a little bit of “chicanery” in the whole thing.

Luthiers (to which Ramirez said anyone who’s never actually made a lute is pompous and presumptuous to call themselves a “luthier” as they are a actually a guitarrero) have had to make the most of what was available readily and cheaply and convince people it was better than the other guy.

Then competing for volume of pianos and orchestras and jazz bands had to make it louder and louder, and here we are!

Overall a guitar is not much more simple to make than a cabinet, and an electric guitar is a plank with strings! Not that much science to it really it’s all in the Artistry and “Bling” (not my thing really.)

Whereas a classical top is like a super thin loudspeaker that will take more time to open up (in the case of spruce vs cedar) but has a limited lifetime before its cell structure ages or “breaks down” and exhibits less tonal and dynamic range, and less volume.


----------



## efiltsohg

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> They're THE bands people need to pay attention to when you're dealing with single-guitar bands. The bassists' sounds are so massive that the guitarists can doodle all day and there isn't anything missing sonically.



...primus


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The cucumber went in surprisingly easy



Dude...



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ate it



The whole thing? Or just the "protruding" part?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

nickgray said:


> The whole thing? Or just the "protruding" part?



Just the protruding part. The other half shot out off the stage somewhere


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The other half shot out off the stage somewhere



I don't even know what to say


----------



## Adieu

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is about as SFW as I could find...the end result was us pouring a bucket of "puke" on him




...was music involved somewhere, or is this a fetish club of sorts?


Because there's different KINDS of shows


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Adieu said:


> ...was music involved somewhere, or is this a fetish club of sorts?
> 
> 
> Because there's different KINDS of shows



It was both. It was a leather bar that hosted bands and all kinds of shows. They once had a punk/metal show held in their backroom dungeon/playspace. That place was great...although to be fair we do those kinds of gigs regardless of the venue.

We were supposed to play an extreme metal festival in South Dakota before Rona killed everything..and even worse was gonna happen there


----------



## c7spheres

It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt : )


----------



## Wuuthrad

c7spheres said:


> It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt : )


 
That’s exactly the point- For some the fun and games is getting hurt! 

I’ve seen some things in my day that would really slice your cucumber!


----------



## c7spheres

Wuuthrad said:


> That’s exactly the point- For some the fun and games is getting hurt!
> 
> I’ve seen some things in my day that would really slice your cucumber!


 I don't want anything that can potentially slice my cucumber anywhere near me! Or anything that can get shoved in my butt either for that matter


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt : )


And then it's AWESOME


----------



## Vyn

Wuuthrad said:


> Sounds like a very cool guitar; is it a Smallman?
> 
> I have to agree and disagree- the facts, as far is understand, will show it’s both construction and wood that determine a guitars sound.
> 
> For example traditional fan bracing ala Torres (who used spruce, maple, or rosewood back and sides, or even newspaper to prove a point that b&s don’t matter as much as people think,) Ramirez fan bracing (who popularized the use of cedar,) Lattice bracing, double tops (which can have both and use nomex or wood in between,) and many more.
> 
> Many people favor traditional fan bracing and choose between spruce or cedar tops, with Brazilian Rosewood being the most sought after (and depleted/endangered) and $$$$ species for back and sides. It’s not all about volume but more intimate tone for some players. Concert players and competition players often go for louder guitars with more projection like double tops.
> 
> The two main top woods not only differ in tonal and harmonic characteristics (spruce being bright with more fundamentals, cedar being warm or dark with more harmonic overtones) make each a preferred sound for different classical repertoire and player preference.
> 
> I know this from many years (several decades) of playing studying and listening. Bach sounds better in a Spruce topped maple b&s guitar (more fundamentals allow the complex polyphony to not get lost in the mix so to speak) and Spanish Romantic music typically sounds better played on a “traditional” Segovia style Cedar top Rosewood back and sides. It’s a darker sound with more reverb like tonality.
> 
> The cellular structure of these two top woods have been studied scientifically for decades to determine their properties, and it has been demonstrated that their are in fact certain differences between species which contribute to their sound. However it’s still possible to have a spruce that sounds like cedar and vice versa.
> 
> Also given the history of guitar making, consider that some of the first Gibson electrics were ES models (Electric Spanish) and it is not to hard to assume that the qualities of classical guitar luthery have crossed over into electric guitar making, although practically speaking there is much less of a difference tonally.
> 
> But there certainly is a difference- otherwise why aren’t electric guitars made entirely of the cheapest materials like plastics or metals?
> 
> Also consider Flamenco players, whose virtuosity more closely resembles shredding than classical guitarists- they use almost exclusively Cypress b&S and Spruce, which give a percussive attack and very little sustain.
> 
> All in all I have to conclude that to say tone wood is BS is in itself BS it’s not really a debate at all.
> 
> But right or wrong (not at all what matters) it’s certainly ok for everyone to have their own opinion! Everybody can play whatever guitar they want- it’s the music that matters!
> 
> Just look at Romanillos whose guitars are worth 10s of thousands- he said Cedar should never be used in guitars and left to siding houses! lol
> 
> Then you have Ramirez who said Stradivarius would have used Western Red Cedar had he known about it.
> 
> So even then, at the end of the day there’s at least a little bit of “chicanery” in the whole thing.
> 
> Luthiers (to which Ramirez said anyone who’s never actually made a lute is pompous and presumptuous to call themselves a “luthier” as they are a actually a guitarrero) have had to make the most of what was available readily and cheaply and convince people it was better than the other guy.
> 
> Then competing for volume of pianos and orchestras and jazz bands had to make it louder and louder, and here we are!
> 
> Overall a guitar is not much more simple to make than a cabinet, and an electric guitar is a plank with strings! Not that much science to it really it’s all in the Artistry and “Bling” (not my thing really.)
> 
> Whereas a classical top is like a super thin loudspeaker that will take more time to open up (in the case of spruce vs cedar) but has a limited lifetime before its cell structure ages or “breaks down” and exhibits less tonal and dynamic range, and less volume.



I'm not ignoring your comment, I need time to read and respond, thank you for taking the time to write a really detailed response


----------



## Wuuthrad

Vyn said:


> I'm not ignoring your comment, I need time to read and respond, thank you for taking the time to write a really detailed response



No worries m8 I’m old school (like carrier pigeons)


----------



## Science_Penguin

Matt08642 said:


> ITT: Every band should be a 4 piece thrash band from the 80s and if you need any other sounds at all on an album, you better plan on adding an additional full human being to a tour bus + expand the budget to make your art valid
> 
> I'm not sure Periphery ever toured with a violinist but they had a song with a violin intro, which I'm sure they sampled live - Does this invalidate them as a band? Inb4 "NO THEIR MUSIC DOES HUR HUR HUR"
> 
> If they have a "DJ" tour with them who just plays the sample, does this make it more valid? What if the drummer triggers a sample with part of his kit? Where's the threshold for validity when using sound in music?
> 
> 
> 
> Steve Vai is a poser for sampling in this song, right? Because he can't recreate it live without the use of the samples?
> 
> My 777th post mentioning Vai, the planets have aligned for this.




This is why you don't try to make rules in music, cause you're always going to find exceptions to your rules in music you like.


----------



## Boofchuck

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> At a gig I stood a naked dude on his head and stuck a cucumber in his butt and ate it.
> 
> The cucumber went in surprisingly easy


----------



## youngthrasher9

Unpopular opinion: if you’re strictly trying to record, or just play with a tone you like with plugins and a daw, you should never think it’s cheating to have processing on your signal path. It’s not a game. There are no rules, just elitists. If you like a deep cut in post EQ at 8k, cut that motherfucker.


----------



## TedEH

youngthrasher9 said:


> There are no rules, just elitists. If you like a deep cut in post EQ at 8k, cut that motherfucker.


I'd take that even farther to include samples, sims, pitch correction - whatever. If it sounds good, do it.

IMO - Most clean singers sound pretty terrible recorded without at least a small amount of pitch correction, but correction has become so ubiquitous as a production technique that the average (non-musician) person doesn't notice it and will deny that it gets used unless it's T-Pain levels of obvious. I know some people who will argue until their face turns blue that their favourite artist would _neeeeever_ use something like that because it's "cheating", and favourite artist clearly is "really talented". Honestly, there's a bajillion great singers out there - the thing that pushes them over the edge is the song itself and the production quality.


----------



## c7spheres

TedEH said:


> I'd take that even farther to include samples, sims, pitch correction - whatever. If it sounds good, do it.
> 
> .... some people who will argue until their face turns blue that their favourite artist would _neeeeever_ use something like that because it's "cheating", and favourite artist clearly is "really talented". Honestly, there's a bajillion great singers out there - the thing that pushes them over the edge is the song itself and the production quality.



Yep, no rules. People should do what they want. I think what makes people (me) upset is when people lie about it. 
- I guess "technically" these artists don't use auto-tune, "techincallly" it's the engineer.


----------



## gnoll

Why do so many people seem to assume that if somebody is against something or doesn't want to do something when it comes to recording/playing music, that it's because they think it's cheating or that they're trying to enforce rules?

Maybe some people just don't like the sound of pitch correction, quantizing, backing tracks, certain eq settings, or whatever it is.I always thought music was subjective and that imperfections add character and feeling, but these days it seems like objectivity is becoming more and more of a thing. If stuff is edited to the grid it's "better", if a note is 100% in tune it's "better". So if somebody doesn't want to make their music "better" it must be because they think it's cheating? Or what?


----------



## TedEH

gnoll said:


> Why do so many people seem to assume that if somebody is against something or doesn't want to do something when it comes to recording/playing music, that it's because they think it's cheating or that they're trying to enforce rules?


Because the objection is frequently raised in exactly those terms.

"Pitch correction is cheating, _real _singers don't don't that."
"Drum triggers are cheating, you can't _actually_ play that fast."

If someone doesn't like the sound of something, all the power to them. When you start getting into Glen Fricker and Fans level of music criticism, telling people it's either "real" or it's garbage, or hating on cheaper gear, etc. - then yeah, there's definitely a voice there claiming there's a "right" way to do music.


----------



## Wuuthrad

youngthrasher9 said:


> There are no rules, just elitists.



That’s not an unpopular opinion, and it’s also technically inaccurate. Here are a few examples:

Sound engineering is mostly a science, albeit with a little room for some creativity added in- there is no “Art” in boosting frequencies below 80hz by 12db for example, it’s just a bad idea.

Also maximizing all audio to highest possible SPL or dB is ridiculous and there are in fact laws and regulations against it, which nobody seems to follow. Just watch a TV broadcast and wait for commercials!

Suffering hearing loss in the name of creativity is just dumb. (Been there, done that!)


----------



## TedEH

Wuuthrad said:


> there is no “Art” in boosting frequencies below 80hz by 12db for example, it’s just a bad idea.


Maybe in commercial pop/rock/metal production, but what about electronic music? What if you've recorded something that lacks sub-bass and need to correct it? What if you're using a guitar to fake a bass sound, you've pitched it down, but the fundamental needs a bit of help because of something in the chain?

The "art" element comes from the fact that just about anything you can call "engineering" is basically just solving problems, and there's almost always a ton of ways to solve those problems.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

The most unpopular opinion in music:

Just do what the fuck you want. If you like it, then that's all that matters. Period.


----------



## budda

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The most unpopular opinion in music:
> 
> Just do what the fuck you want. If you like it, then that's all that matters. Period.



The issue is when you second-guess yourself and start thinking it's not good enough *to you*. (Why yes, I am sitting on an EP i want the drums re-done on).


----------



## StevenC

gnoll said:


> Why do so many people seem to assume that if somebody is against something or doesn't want to do something when it comes to recording/playing music, that it's because they think it's cheating or that they're trying to enforce rules?
> 
> Maybe some people just don't like the sound of pitch correction, quantizing, backing tracks, certain eq settings, or whatever it is.I always thought music was subjective and that imperfections add character and feeling, but these days it seems like objectivity is becoming more and more of a thing. If stuff is edited to the grid it's "better", if a note is 100% in tune it's "better". So if somebody doesn't want to make their music "better" it must be because they think it's cheating? Or what?


I 100% agree and 100% disagree with you.

I love the sound of autotune and quantized drums. Believe by Cher is a banger, but the gimmick of that song is the robot sounding vocals. I love autotune the same way I love the vocoder vocals on Focus. I love the sound of perfect drums... For some things. Keep it away from like 99% of my rock music.

The whole point of these things is engineers and producers having taste and bands having talent. Bad drummers getting quantized is an inevitability, good singers getting autotuned is a shame.

Cher can sing, but Believe isn't about how well she can or can't sing.


----------



## Emperoff

You guys haven't heard autotune until you listen to some trendy latin/trap shit. And you're better off that way


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> The issue is when you second-guess yourself and start thinking it's not good enough *to you*. (Why yes, I am sitting on an EP i want the drums re-done on).


Then fix it till it is


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Then fix it till it is


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

budda said:


> The issue is when you second-guess yourself and start thinking it's not good enough *to you*. (Why yes, I am sitting on an EP i want the drums re-done on).


Build the drums up riff by riff, starting with the snare. Get the placement of the snare hits where you like, then kick, then cymbals. Makes it much easier to get the drums sounding right.


----------



## budda

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Build the drums up riff by riff, starting with the snare. Get the placement of the snare hits where you like, then kick, then cymbals. Makes it much easier to get the drums sounding right.



Current plan is likely pay my brother to do it, or wait til I get a new machine and buy a program. The current drums and last EP were all garageband loops with a ton of reverb.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

budda said:


> Current plan is likely pay my brother to do it, or wait til I get a new machine and buy a program. The current drums and last EP were all garageband loops with a ton of reverb.


Couldn't you do it in Guitar Pro and import it?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


>



People don't think it be like it is...but it do


----------



## budda

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Couldn't you do it in Guitar Pro and import it?



Dont have guitar pro. There's piano roll in GB but I have never had succes programming via roll.


----------



## BenjaminW

budda said:


> Current plan is likely pay my brother to do it, or wait til I get a new machine and buy a program. The current drums and last EP were all garageband loops with a ton of reverb.


GarageBand loops are the shit.


----------



## laxu

Emperoff said:


> You guys haven't heard autotune until you listen to some trendy latin/trap shit. And you're better off that way



I really, really, really hate that sound. I can't think of a worse trend in music right now. The "autotune as vocal effect" thing is just taken to such an extreme that a lot of these artists sound horrible. I don't mind Cher's "Believe" or Daft Punk using vocoders but a lot of the modern trap stuff is just aural vomit to my ears. I can fully believe those trap etc artists can't carry a tune to save their lives and I really wish the mainstream would stop letting them on the airwaves.

It goes so beyond just correcting some minor errors a singer made to get a good take. I'm fine with that even though I acknowledge that often imperfection is more interesting and the modern production especially for vocals is removing character a lot of singers might otherwise have. There are plenty of artists with let's say "unique" or "acquired taste" voices that have done well for themselves without having to pitch correct the shit out of their voices. Plenty of singers who can bring it live just as well as on record too.


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> I really, really, really hate that sound. I can't think of a worse trend in music right now. The "autotune as vocal effect" thing is just taken to such an extreme that a lot of these artists sound horrible. I don't mind Cher's "Believe" or Daft Punk using vocoders but a lot of the modern trap stuff is just aural vomit to my ears. I can fully believe those trap etc artists can't carry a tune to save their lives and I really wish the mainstream would stop letting them on the airwaves



Couldn't agree more. Whenever you think mainstream music can't get worse, it finds a way to surprise you. These people are literally "speaking" (they talk like if they had multiple strokes) into the autotuner and tracked that way. Not applied as post FX (this is how big name producers do it, they don't even bother anymore with these people).

Same thing as those animal singing songs on Youtube. Zero talent, but earning millions...


----------



## technomancer

Emperoff said:


>



Jari? Oh no wait that's a console not a sauna...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

technomancer said:


> Jari? Oh no wait that's a console not a sauna...


Should be a computer. Given how much he's on Facebook and Patreon shifting blame on others


----------



## technomancer

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Should be a computer. Given how much he's on Facebook and Patreon shifting blame on others



Gotta get that other people's money brah, can't get people to give you money for nothing if your situation is your own fault..


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> Zero talent, but earning millions...



Why's nobody here making famous latin dance hits and living the life? lmao

Weird that autotune is bad and immediately means that artist or producer is a talentless hack when used in a specific way, but cool dudes like Anup Sastry literally making guitar parts by copy pasting the notes where he needs them is considered good because his music makes the 00000 sound we like (unless you think Anup sucks then IDK what to tell ya)


----------



## Emperoff

Matt08642 said:


> Why's nobody here making famous latin dance hits and living the life? lmao
> 
> Weird that autotune is bad and immediately means that artist or producer is a talentless hack when used in a specific way, but cool dudes like Anup Sastry literally making guitar parts by copy pasting the notes where he needs them is considered good because his music makes the 00000 sound we like (unless you think Anup sucks then IDK what to tell ya)



I know shit about that guy so IDK what to tell ya. But if you really feel the need to argue I'll be happy to listen to your thoughts about this marvelous piece of musical poetry:



Feel free to use google translate for the lyrics so you can sustain your arguments even better.


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> I know shit about that guy so IDK what to tell ya. But if you really feel the need to argue I'll be happy to listen to your thoughts about this marvelous piece of musical poetry:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to use google translate for the lyrics so you can sustain your arguments even better.




You just posted a song you think is stupid or required no talent or anything to make/produce/promote/get in your brain and targeted the lyrics, which I was never talking about in the first place.

This is what a lot of people misunderstand. When I defend pop or dance or whatever, I'm not saying I listen to it or that it's an objective musical triumph (as if such a thing exists) according to my tastes, just that the argument of "well this guy has no talent and makes millions" is ridiculous to make

That song would sound completely different if he was hitting the notes by singing them (in context of that style of music), just like it would be stupid (contextually if you intended to be popular) to have a dance song of that genre with Meshuggah/Devin Townsend lyrics


----------



## WarMachine

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The most unpopular opinion in music:
> 
> Just do what the fuck you want. If you like it, then that's all that matters. Period.


/end thread right there


----------



## Emperoff

Matt08642 said:


> You just posted a song you think is stupid or required no talent or anything to make/produce/promote/get in your brain and targeted the lyrics, which I was never talking about in the first place.
> 
> This is what a lot of people misunderstand. When I defend pop or dance or whatever, I'm not saying I listen to it or that it's an objective musical triumph (as if such a thing exists) according to my tastes, just that the argument of "well this guy has no talent and makes millions" is ridiculous to make
> 
> That song would sound completely different if he was hitting the notes by singing them (in context of that style of music), just like it would be stupid (contextually if you intended to be popular) to have a dance song of that genre with Meshuggah/Devin Townsend lyrics



These brainless idiots make millions out of the work of their producers, record companies, social media managers, and the like. They're just a face that if replaced no one would notice. That's a fact wether you like it or not. Pop industry has always worked like this but at least back in the day you needed to know how to sing at least.


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> These brainless idiots make millions out of the work of their producers, record companies, social media managers, and the like. They're just a face that if replaced no one would notice. That's a fact wether you like it or not. Pop industry has always worked like this but at least back in the day you needed to know how to sing at least.



That's true, not my hottest take


----------



## Wuuthrad

TedEH said:


> Maybe in commercial pop/rock/metal production, but what about electronic music? What if you've recorded something that lacks sub-bass and need to correct it? What if you're using a guitar to fake a bass sound, you've pitched it down, but the fundamental needs a bit of help because of something in the chain?
> 
> The "art" element comes from the fact that just about anything you can call "engineering" is basically just solving problems, and there's almost always a ton of ways to solve those problems.



Well generally speaking “fix it in the mix” was to be avoided unless absolutely necessary (according to old engineering knowledge) and prior to the Roland TR 808 there wasn’t really any sub bass in music.

But yes if you want a good electronic track you need bass. Now say you want to press vinyl, you do have to follow certain engineering rules otherwise the record won’t be able to be pressed! (I guess that’s kind of what I was referring to not very specifically.) 

A digital medium like CD or mp3 you can get away with “mistakes” that wouldn’t work pressing vinyl or like you said commercial or radio production.

Even then, without a dedicated subwoofer, crossover or a proper soundsystem frequencies at or below 80hz are lost in the mix and are a waste of sound energy.

I do like some Industrial Metal like Turmion Kätilöt! Great mix of metal/techno and quite a show! This might actually be an unpopular opinion too! But probably up Drakkar’s alley I’m guessing...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Emperoff said:


> These brainless idiots make millions out of the work of their producers, record companies, social media managers, and the like. They're just a face that if replaced no one would notice. That's a fact wether you like it or not. Pop industry has always worked like this but at least back in the day you needed to know how to sing at least.



Just ask Milli Vanilli if you used to have to be able to sing to be famous


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> I do like some Industrial Metal like Turmion Kätilöt! Great mix of metal/techno and quite a show! This might actually be an unpopular opinion too! But probably up Drakkar’s alley I’m guessing...



It's a cute song. Reminds me of a heavier Rummelsnuff and just as goofy


----------



## Emperoff

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Just ask Milli Vanilli if you used to have to be able to sing to be famous



Man, there's always someone that has to mention them like if they were the rule and not the exception. ALWAYS.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

you did kinda walk into that and leave the door open 

But you're right, the pop industry, in fact EVERY industry in a capitalist society works by the little guy making money for the big guy. It's just in the pop industry, every once in a while the little guy makes millions too.


----------



## Lozek

Emperoff said:


> Man, there's always someone that has to mention them like if they were the rule and not the exception. ALWAYS.



They were the ones that people know about, by law of averages there would have been more. There's 'ghost performers' even in metal, both live and in the studio.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Let's not forget Martha Wash and how TWO different bands stole her voice

And Macarena


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And Macarena



Why do you do this to me?


----------



## USMarine75

Devin Townsend is the Dr Who of music.


----------



## c7spheres

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Just ask Milli Vanilli if you used to have to be able to sing to be famous




Rob and Fab from Milli Vanilli could sing but the record company screwed them. I think it's terrible what happened to them. They went along for the ride but their only other option was to break contract and get more screwed. That's why everyone looking at a big record deal should get a music business lawyer.


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's a cute song. Reminds me of a heavier Rummelsnuff and just as goofy



They’ve obviously sold out to commercial interests! Can’t blame them really...


----------



## Wuuthrad

c7spheres said:


> Rob and Fab from Milli Vanilli could sing but the record company screwed them. I think it's terrible what happened to them. They went along for the ride but their only other option was to break contract and get more screwed. That's why everyone looking at a big record deal should get a music business lawyer.



Billy Joel for example!


----------



## c7spheres

Wuuthrad said:


> Billy Joel for example!


 FUCK BILLY JOEL ! I hate him just because of how he treated his ex bandmates and how he screwed them. FUCK BILLY JOEL ! I'd make a shirt that says it but it would remind me of his existance. 

- FUCK YOU BILLY JOEL ! ! !


----------



## Emperoff

c7spheres said:


> FUCK BILLY JOEL ! I hate him just because of how he treated his ex bandmates and how he screwed them. FUCK BILLY JOEL ! I'd make a shirt that says it but it would remind me of his existance.
> 
> - FUCK YOU BILLY JOEL ! ! !



That's more common than you think. Ghost is the perfect example.


----------



## c7spheres

Emperoff said:


> That's more common than you think. Ghost is the perfect example.


 Then fuck Ghost too if that's the case!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> Then fuck Ghost too if that's the case!



Fuck Ghost anyways. Jesus Christ that band is horrible


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fuck Ghost anyways. Jesus Christ that band is horrible



No joke! 

Hagstrom guitars on the other hand- better than Gibson? Possible!


----------



## Wuuthrad

I think Marshall Stacks sound like garbage.

Turning an amp to 10 just to get a good sound is ridiculous.

Laney and Randall kick Marshall ass all day every day and even Sunday!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> I think Marshall Stacks sound like garbage.
> 
> Turning an amp to 10 just to get a good sound is ridiculous.
> 
> Laney and Randall kick Marshall ass all day every day and even Sunday!



Yeah this is quite a hot take. Interesting


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Wuuthrad said:


> I think Marshall Stacks sound like garbage.
> 
> Turning an amp to 10 just to get a good sound is ridiculous.
> 
> Laney and Randall kick Marshall ass all day every day and even Sunday!



Give a Mode Four a try. I think you'd dig it. You can find them pretty cheap too.


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah this is quite a hot take. Interesting



Gibson~Laney=Metal

Dean~Randall=Metal

Fender~Marshall=Blues Cruises


Also:

Guitar~Fender=Music


----------



## Wuuthrad

MaxOfMetal said:


> Give a Mode Four a try. I think you'd dig it. You can find them pretty cheap too.



Yea I don’t doubt it- it’s mostly the JT or JCM I can’t stand.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I've come to really love the Marshall style amp sims in my list. Out of all the stuff I have, a boost in front of a Marshall sounds like love to me. It occurred to me that I've always been fond of the pushed Marshall tone which is weird considering I've never actually owned one or paid them much attention.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Something in the mid range kills me ears...

Like 1st Melvins Album sounds great but I wish he’d played his Les Paul Custom through a Laney or Randall and stayed Metal! 

Also can’t stand the Orange “Terror” Amps sound like sterile mouthwash to me.

This is all due to hearing air being pushed through stacks. Models are fine don’t get me wrong, that’s not my issue. 


Ever try a headphone amp through a Mackie into a 2500 watt power amp with a pair of dual 15” DJ speakers? Now that’s a sick sound. Do not do this at home!


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Whatever makes that weird single coil sound that literally every metal tone has now pisses me off. Like it's painfully obvious in Lamb of God and Death Angel's sound and while I love their music their tone fucking sucks bc of that stupid twangy thing.


----------



## TedEH

I don't think I'm hearing the single coil thing. When I think weird single coil-ish sound I think of that really weird thin scratchy "prog-metal" tone people seem to pull out of what I'm guessing is modellers. Intervals is maybe an example people would recognize. I really like the music from David Maxim Micic, but he's got that kind of tone too. I guess it's the "please don't call this djent" tone.


----------



## Demiurge

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Whatever makes that weird single coil sound that literally every metal tone has now pisses me off. Like it's painfully obvious in Lamb of God and Death Angel's sound and while I love their music their tone fucking sucks bc of that stupid twangy thing.



It could be the byproduct of players turning their mids back up, exposing the limitations of their pickups that typically covered-up by a scooped EQ.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Demiurge said:


> It could be the byproduct of players turning their mids back up, exposing the limitations of their pickups that typically covered-up by a scooped EQ.



That could be it, do you think it would be possible to edit the sound out though? I typically don't play super scooped but if that starts happening with stuff I record I'm gonna shoot myself


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TheBolivianSniper said:


> That could be it, do you think it would be possible to edit the sound out though? I typically don't play super scooped but if that starts happening with stuff I record I'm gonna shoot myself


Just scoop all the kids on your guitars. Then you don't have to worry about it, and we don't have to hear your guitars.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Just scoop all the kids on your guitars. Then you don't have to worry about it, and we don't have to hear your guitars.



Excellent. I sound like shit so


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Just scoop all the kids on your guitars. Then you don't have to worry about it, and we don't have to hear your guitars.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Whatever makes that weird single coil sound that literally every metal tone has now pisses me off. Like it's painfully obvious in Lamb of God and Death Angel's sound and while I love their music their tone fucking sucks bc of that stupid twangy thing.



I HATE Lamb Of God's guitar tone. It literally makes me angry. I can't sit through any of their music and that's the sole reason.


----------



## Seabeast2000

I'm afraid.


----------



## budda

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I HATE Lamb Of God's guitar tone. It literally makes me angry. I can't sit through any of their music and that's the sole reason.



Which era?

When I was young and they were on album 3, I thought ashes sounded incredible. Fast forward over a decade and give me "as the palaces burn" all day every day.

The guitar tone being fatiguing is how I've gotten out of their releases. I used to leave their albums on repeat, a lot.

Still influential on me as a player though.


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fuck Ghost anyways. Jesus Christ that band is horrible



That’s a popular opinion here. 

I personally love the band and enjoy all the theatrics and videos that go along with the music. Plus the guitars sound huge when they want to. 

Just a bunch of people mad that Ghost isn’t “real metal” enough. The guy does terrible ballet during the chorus to Rats. That rules.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> Which era?
> 
> When I was young and they were on album 3, I thought ashes sounded incredible. Fast forward over a decade and give me "as the palaces burn" all day every day.
> 
> The guitar tone being fatiguing is how I've gotten out of their releases. I used to leave their albums on repeat, a lot.
> 
> Still influential on me as a player though.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I HATE Lamb Of God's guitar tone. It literally makes me angry. I can't sit through any of their music and that's the sole reason.



What about their newest album? Their tracks in drop C like Resurrection Man sound huge and I love it, minus that stupid fucking noise, but it's a little minimized in that. Laid to Rest is one of the prime offenders of that shitty tone.

Also Mark Morton's leads sound amazing and I will die on that hill. It's so fluid that it sounds kinda synth-y imo


----------



## cGoEcYk

Ashes of the Wake was my fav by them, distinctive sound. I think they used Mark IV on it.


----------



## Choop

cGoEcYk said:


> Ashes of the Wake was my fav by them, distinctive sound. I think they used Mark IV on it.



Same--followed closely by Sacrament for me. I think the tone on those albums is super nasty, in a good way.


----------



## budda

Im at work, someone link for your malice in HD.


----------



## Matt08642

Sorry what's the "single coil" sound here?



1:41 if the time link doesn't work.

I got bored of LoG because all their stuff past a few songs on Wrath all just blur together for me.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Matt08642 said:


> Sorry what's the "single coil" sound here?
> 
> 
> 
> 1:41 if the time link doesn't work.
> 
> I got bored of LoG because all their stuff past a few songs on Wrath all just blur together for me.




it's this weird mid hiccup sort of thing that I've noticed in high gain sounds. Later tonight when I'm done with all my work for tomorrow I'll post some examples and timestamps.


----------



## Matt08642

TheBolivianSniper said:


> it's this weird mid hiccup sort of thing that I've noticed in high gain sounds. Later tonight when I'm done with all my work for tomorrow I'll post some examples and timestamps.



Hmm interesting. I wonder if it's the Mark tone they're using combined with a trebly EQ curve or something? After listening to a few more songs I can kind of hear a "fragility" to the sound that I assume was intentional to cut through, like a top end "sizzle" to the max


----------



## MASS DEFECT

I don't like Lamb of God as a band but I dig their Mark IV tones. The reissue/remix of As the Palaces Burn have their representative live amp sound.


----------



## Science_Penguin

Used to listen to Redneck on ESP's old website back in my early days of lusting after gear. Back when web designers still thought auto-playing music on a webpage was a good idea...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TheBolivianSniper said:


> What about their newest album? Their tracks in drop C like Resurrection Man sound huge and I love it, minus that stupid fucking noise, but it's a little minimized in that. Laid to Rest is one of the prime offenders of that shitty tone.
> 
> Also Mark Morton's leads sound amazing and I will die on that hill. It's so fluid that it sounds kinda synth-y imo



I dunno. I stopped listening to Lamb Of God after their first single because I hated the guitar tone and couldn't sit through more listens.

Upon listening to, what I assume is their newer stuff it's a lot better than their first batch of stuff...but even still there's just something I don't like. I think it's more the production they seem to go after though.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Oh...7 strings, 8 strings, etc sound like shit. And they're ugly looking

The metal people make with it sounds like garbage. There's only been a small number of such bands that don't sound horrendous and even then I could do without it.

6 strings seem to be more than enough.


----------



## Beheroth

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh...7 strings, 8 strings, etc sound like shit. And they're ugly looking
> 
> The metal people make with it sounds like garbage. There's only been a small number of such bands that don't sound horrendous and even then I could do without it.
> 
> 6 strings seem to be more than enough.


----------



## I play music

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh...7 strings, 8 strings, etc sound like shit. And they're ugly looking
> 
> The metal people make with it sounds like garbage. There's only been a small number of such bands that don't sound horrendous and even then I could do without it.
> 
> 6 strings seem to be more than enough.


you are on the wrong forum ..


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 6 strings seem to be more than enough.



Real men use balalaikas. 3 strings or bust.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Drak is in full blown scorched earth mode, and I'm here for it.


----------



## Matt08642

How to have the hottest takes: Just say everything sucks


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> How to have the hottest takes: Just say everything sucks


Matt08642 has the stupidest takes. #Facts


----------



## Matt08642

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Matt08642 has the stupidest takes. #Facts



I can't refute this.


----------



## Science_Penguin

nickgray said:


> Real men use balalaikas. 3 strings or bust.



Trve Metal is made with no strings.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> you are on the wrong forum ..


I stay out of the ERG section because I have nothing positive to say.

It really sucks because now everyone does amp reviews with 6659 string guitars because people wanna hear how amps handle them...they ALWAYS sound like shit. I'd much rather hear a demo with a 6 string in a non retarded tuning


----------



## Bodes

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I stay out of the ERG section because I have nothing positive to say.
> 
> It really sucks because now everyone does amp reviews with 6659 string guitars because people wanna hear how amps handle them...they ALWAYS sound like shit. I'd much rather hear a demo with a 6 string in a non retarded tuning



Not sure if Drax is trolling or not, but I often find myself laughing at many of his his posts. Thank you! I need the laughs in this depressing lock-down.


----------



## TedEH

In theory, a 7 string should sound like a 6 string... just with some more range. In practice though, I feel like the more strings people add and the lower they tune, the farther the target tone gets from my own taste. So, while the number of strings in itself might not be what ruins a tone, there's arguably a link between number of strings, downtuning, pickup choice, how people dial their amps, etc. So I tend to find the "6 string tones" people come up with to sound better.

If it's me playing, I like to have a 7. If I'm judging other people's tones - I prefer the kinds of tones that people usually get on 6s and in standard-ish tunings.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TedEH said:


> In theory, a 7 string should sound like a 6 string... just with some more range. In practice though, I feel like the more strings people add and the lower they tune, the farther the target tone gets from my own taste. So, while the number of strings in itself might not be what ruins a tone, there's arguably a link between number of strings, downtuning, pickup choice, how people dial their amps, etc. So I tend to find the "6 string tones" people come up with to sound better.
> 
> If it's me playing, I like to have a 7. If I'm judging other people's tones - I prefer the kinds of tones that people usually get on 6s and in standard-ish tunings.


They tend to dial in tones that make the low strings sound good (at best; some sound like clickity clackity "single coil" tones), but the high strings sound like shit.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Bodes said:


> Not sure if Drax is trolling or not, but I often find myself laughing at many of his his posts. Thank you! I need the laughs in this depressing lock-down.


Nope. Not trolling. I just don't mention it because I don't want to be "that guy"...but since this is the unpopular opinion thread I figured I'd be honest


----------



## Emperoff

Spaced Out Ace said:


> They tend to dial in tones that make the low strings sound good (at best; some sound like clickity clackity "single coil" tones), but the high strings sound like shit.


But, but... the mids... the clarity... the boost... the definition... the articulation... the tightness... Drop # tuning... How else can I be metal?

Kind reminder of what E tuning with no boost (and Boss GT-6, no less) can do:


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Mids are great, and you need them for guitars, but all mids and nothing else is not really that enjoyable to listen to.


----------



## Protestheriphery

Point 1: Fancy veneers (and AAAAA flame/quilt top on higher end guitars), bindings, inlays etc, are just redundant eye candy that serve no real purpose in the grand scheme of instrument tone. Maybe Im biased, seeing as how the majority of gear Ive ever owned included all that goofy shit.

Point 2: Too many guitar brands (ie Ibanez, Schecter, ESP-fuck it, throw Gibson and PRS in there too) put out some of the tackiest finishes and visual appointments on otherwise solid instruments. As the years progress, tasteful color choices become more rare. Every time I catch wind of what the latest lineups have in store, I cringe at the aesthetic choices they go with.

I understand these manufacturers have always followed outlandish trends (flourescent colors in the 80's), but at least back then, they still had basic black and red, etc. Now, if Im looking at something with bangin specs, unfortunately its also comes slathered in an assortment of rainbow dog vomit burst finishes. Apparently, companies assume all guitarists have ADHD and buy solely on appearance, and therefore need something with gimmicky looks to hold their attention.


----------



## gnoll

I'm not into 7- and 8-string guitars either. I use this forum because I like the forum, not because I like 7-string guitars. I even seem to tune my 6-strings higher and higher with time.

I really wouldn't mind if guitarists just stopped tuning down below E. Low tunings don't seem to be doing music any favors, in fact it seems the lower the tuning the less chance I will like the music.


----------



## Emperoff

gnoll said:


> I'm not into 7- and 8-string guitars either. I use this forum because I like the forum, not because I like 7-string guitars. I even seem to tune my 6-strings higher and higher with time.
> 
> I really wouldn't mind if guitarists just stopped tuning down below E. Low tunings don't seem to be doing music any favors, in fact it seems the lower the tuning the less chance I will like the music.



I barely use the 7th string in any of my bands, yet I feel naked without it. My hands are pretty big so 7-string necks feel home to me, even if I don't take full advantage of them.

Plus, it's a great GAS stopper. 7-string CS Jacksons are rare and expensive, whereas there are thousands of sixers to buy and I'd be in fucking trouble.


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> I barely use the 7th string in any of my bands, yet I feel naked without it. My hands are pretty big so 7-string necks feel home to me, even if I don't take full advantage of them.
> 
> Plus, it's a great GAS stopper. 7-string CS Jacksons are rare and expensive, whereas there are thousands of sixers to buy and I'd be in fucking trouble.



The nice thing about 7s for me is that now that I have a hardtail and a trem, I don't feel the need for any more for any reason lmao. I also sparingly use the 7th string, I've just gotten really used to the necks/where to rest my hands while playing

6 string RG is still my "main" for most things, but it feels small now

Same with when I picked up a bass, bought a 5 string and now any 4 string feels weird


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I'm the opposite. I was your typical low B chugger. After realizing I never really used the high string I just decided to move onto regular 6 strings and baritones. If need be, I tune the F# to G to get more of a proper 7 string tuning when it calls for it. 

Although I kinda feel you with the latter part @Emperoff. Decent 6 strong baritones are decently rare.


----------



## youngthrasher9

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Although I kinda feel you with the latter part @Emperoff. Decent 6 strong baritones are decently rare.



Baritone guy here, I can confirm. Unless one has $1800+ to spend on a bari, sacrifice or compromise is the name of game while shopping.


----------



## Lozek

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It really sucks because now everyone does amp reviews with 6659 string guitars because people wanna hear how amps handle them...they ALWAYS sound like shit. I'd much rather hear a demo with a 6 string in a non retarded tuning



This.


----------



## diagrammatiks

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm the opposite. I was your typical low B chugger. After realizing I never really used the high string I just decided to move onto regular 6 strings and baritones. If need be, I tune the F# to G to get more of a proper 7 string tuning when it calls for it.
> 
> Although I kinda feel you with the latter part @Emperoff. Decent 6 strong baritones are decently rare.



I feel like this is a great time for baritones as long as your ok with anything 27 inches and above.


----------



## I play music

Lozek said:


> This.


What? All the amp demo guys I see are using 6 strings. Name me just one 8 string players doing amp demos, I can't think of even one.


----------



## I play music

diagrammatiks said:


> I feel like this is a great time for baritones as long as your ok with anything 27 inches and above.


Baritones look like a trend to me that has just started. Maybe next year there will be even more baritones offered.


----------



## BenjaminW

I play music said:


> Baritones look like a trend to me that has just started. Maybe next year there will be even more baritones offered.


I honestly didn't even know what baritones were until I got here. But hey, that's what I get for playing guitar for less than 10 years.


----------



## Protestheriphery

gnoll said:


> I'm not into 7- and 8-string guitars either. I use this forum because I like the forum, not because I like 7-string guitars. I even seem to tune my 6-strings higher and higher with time.
> 
> I really wouldn't mind if guitarists just stopped tuning down below E. Low tunings don't seem to be doing music any favors, in fact it seems the lower the tuning the less chance I will like the music.


Same. The few occasions I happen to write something in e std or drop d, I feel a sense of accomplishment.


----------



## budda

I play music said:


> Baritones look like a trend to me that has just started. Maybe next year there will be even more baritones offered.



Like 7's, baritones have been around for a while. They gained popularity in the 80s according to wikipedia, so that's a while .


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah baritones aren't a new thing. 6 string baritones were an in thing during the nu metal craze, but the hype cooled off rather quickly.


----------



## Protestheriphery

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm the opposite. I was your typical low B chugger. After realizing I never really used the high string I just decided to move onto regular 6 strings and baritones. If need be, I tune the F# to G to get more of a proper 7 string tuning when it calls for it.
> 
> Although I kinda feel you with the latter part @Emperoff. Decent 6 strong baritones are decently rare.


Agreed. Im _still_ an unapologetic low b chugger, caveman riffs all day. I cant get behind the 7's longer scale for doing work on the high strings. Too much of a stretch. I'll just stick with the 6's regular scale. To me, a 6 is more versatile, ironically. I can set it up for low tuning, or I can just decide I wanna go 80's thrash with e std.


----------



## c7spheres

Protestheriphery said:


> Agreed. Im _still_ an unapologetic low b chugger, caveman riffs all day. I cant get behind the 7's longer scale for doing work on the high strings. Too much of a stretch. I'll just stick with the 6's regular scale. To me, a 6 is more versatile, ironically. I can set it up for low tuning, or I can just decide I wanna go 80's thrash with e std.


 Warmoth has 25" scale length 7 string necks that might be a bit more comfy.


----------



## budda

c7spheres said:


> Warmoth has 25" scale length 7 string necks that might be a bit more comfy.



Isnt that the prs SE 7 too?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> Isnt that the prs SE 7 too?



Yep. And I'm pretty sure you can find some Gibsonn-scale 7's as well. The old Ibanex AX-series 7-strings come to mind.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't understand folks who think there's a meaningful difference in the fret spacing between guitars with scales only an inch or two apart. 

The difference between a 25.5" and 27" is literally less than one fret. Like take what you're playing and move exactly one fret down the guitar neck and that's the difference when spread across the whole scale. 

Go mess around in Fret Find 2D. You'll be amazed how absolutely miniscule the difference is. We're talking thousandths of an inch in places.


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand folks who think there's a meaningful difference in the fret spacing between guitars with scales only an inch or two apart.
> 
> The difference between a 25.5" and 27" is literally less than one fret. Like take what you're playing and move exactly one fret down the guitar neck and that's the difference when spread across the whole scale.
> 
> Go mess around in Fret Find 2D. You'll be amazed how absolutely miniscule the difference is. We're talking thousandths of an inch in places.



I feel the difference a lot in upper frets. My fingers feel a lot less cramped.


----------



## odibrom

Emperoff said:


> I feel the difference a lot in upper frets. My fingers feel a lot less cramped.



+1 on THIS

I feel this too when seldom playing my RG8 (27" scale length). I'm used to 25.5" on all my other guitars. There's way more room for the fretting hand at higher frets with bigger scale lengths, but then, stretches at lower frets will be much harder to execute for smaller hands.

IMO the feel of a guitar's scale length is directly related to each one's hands size, finger stretching/flexibility and the place on the fretboard one mostly navigates/surfs... this on the fretting hand comfort playing perspective only, no tone talk involved...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't doubt folks _think_ there's a big difference due to scale.


----------



## Choop

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't doubt folks _think_ there's a big difference due to scale.



I think it's most noticeable when shaping chords or playing quick licks on frets 1-5 or so. It's been a while since I owned a 27" scale length guitar. Probably also just a case of YMMV from player to player, and also varying based on neck profiles as well.


----------



## odibrom

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't doubt folks _think_ there's a big difference due to scale.



We're guitar players, we're bitchy and snob about these things. It's not really a question of THINKING there's a big difference, it's more about how my hands feel and the added stress of making the same play on 27" scale length guitars as on 25.5" ones. For small hand players it will take a bigger effort for things to happen the _same_ way. It's a matter of FEEL, not thought. It's like a small hand piano player who, although may have top tier qualities, cannot play some compositions due to not being able to stretch his/hers (most often) fingers much more than 1 octave. Size does matter when playing musical instruments in order to achieve similar results... in my experience, that is...

... there really isn't a big different for most of things. I see it as my guitars' action, I like it as low as possible and feel uncomfortable when it's a little higher than the optimal setup. I'm talking less than a millimetre feel that makes a huge difference between playing cleanly or sloppy. If less than a millimetre has this effect on anyone's playing, why wouldn't the guitar's scale length?

... but this is also related to how one tunes the guitar and what strings are in use (string tension stuff). There are phrasings that only really work on specific guitars, although could be played in others... and I'm only talking about play/execution, no tone talk involved...

...

... or maybe I'm missing your point here, would you care to explain a bit better/deeper?


----------



## c7spheres

budda said:


> Isnt that the prs SE 7 too?



Now that you mention it, it does seem like the prs se7.



MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand folks who think there's a meaningful difference in the fret spacing between guitars with scales only an inch or two apart.
> 
> The difference between a 25.5" and 27" is literally less than one fret. Like take what you're playing and move exactly one fret down the guitar neck and that's the difference when spread across the whole scale.
> 
> Go mess around in Fret Find 2D. You'll be amazed how absolutely miniscule the difference is. We're talking thousandths of an inch in places.



When I had a custom built with a 26.75" scale coming fro a 25.5 I didn't think it'd be a big deal, and for the most part it wasn't, but I just couldn't get accustomed to the complex/stretch chords. I tried twice over the course of about 2 years and eventually just sold it because it wasn't happening for me. It was barely off so maybe a 26.5 would work for me. Such a small difference but for certain things it can make a big difference, ime.


----------



## Science_Penguin

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand folks who think there's a meaningful difference in the fret spacing between guitars with scales only an inch or two apart.
> 
> The difference between a 25.5" and 27" is literally less than one fret. Like take what you're playing and move exactly one fret down the guitar neck and that's the difference when spread across the whole scale.
> 
> Go mess around in Fret Find 2D. You'll be amazed how absolutely miniscule the difference is. We're talking thousandths of an inch in places.



I notice the difference specifically playing F Major scale starting on the first fret of the low E string... And literally nowhere else.

As long as I'm not practising that particular scale, yeah, the difference is null... And my fingers are pretty short.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Heh, struck a nerve with that last one.


----------



## BornToLooze

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand folks who think there's a meaningful difference in the fret spacing between guitars with scales only an inch or two apart.
> 
> The difference between a 25.5" and 27" is literally less than one fret. Like take what you're playing and move exactly one fret down the guitar neck and that's the difference when spread across the whole scale.
> 
> Go mess around in Fret Find 2D. You'll be amazed how absolutely miniscule the difference is. We're talking thousandths of an inch in places.



As someone who's spent the last 12 years playing the same guitar for the most part, with some bass thrown in, everything is in the same spot, you just have to spread your fingers a little farther apart.


----------



## c7spheres

BornToLooze said:


> As someone who's spent the last 12 years playing the same guitar for the most part, with some bass thrown in, everything is in the same spot, you just have to spread your fingers a little farther apart.


 It's only really noticeable when you're playing big stretch chords. Try playing a 1-5-2-4 over a 5 fret span on the lower strings. That ringer finger palying the 4(11) is just not always gonna happen depending on your fingers/hands ability to manipulate itself. Yes, I play that more often than you'd think. It's just random weird stuff you figure out as you play. I wish I could handle a 27" scale though. Then I'd just go out and but a couple of the old rg2027xL's


----------



## Emperoff

I have 25,5", 27" and 28,75" scale guitars. The difference is noticeable to me in a lot of different ways. Specially standing up. To the point of realizing the 28'75" guitar was longer than my 27" even though it was sold as a 27" scale. So no psycological thing going on either.

Your mileage may vary, of course.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Scale on nylon string is quite a bit more noticeable, partly due to the standard 52 mm nut width.

Electric guitars not as much, but string tension and “feel” is one of the main differences between the “standard” 24 3/4 and 25 1/2 in my experience.


----------



## I play music

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah baritones aren't a new thing. 6 string baritones were an in thing during the nu metal craze, but the hype cooled off rather quickly.


Yes and now I see them having a come-back. Just like 7 stringers did with djent.


----------



## USMarine75

My 23.75" scale Peavey T-15 feels noticeably different than my 30" Ibanez SRC6 baritone. YMMV


----------



## gnoll

I think even moving between 25.5 and 24.75 is pretty noticeable. The biggest difference is where I'm already struggling to stretch to a fret on 24.75, then even that tiny little difference to 25.5 makes a big difference in reality. Somewhere there is a line where you just can't reach a fret anymore, and if that line is in that .75 difference, then you're fucked.

But things also feel less cramped on the upper frets on 25.5, so it's a trade-off.


----------



## c7spheres

Wuuthrad said:


> Scale on nylon string is quite a bit more noticeable, partly due to the standard 52 mm nut width.
> 
> Electric guitars not as much, but string tension and “feel” is one of the main differences between the “standard” 24 3/4 and 25 1/2 in my experience.



I'd like to have a 7 string electric at exactly 26.0" scale and 52mm nut width. I don't know why there doens't seem to be any production models of it. Every time I pickup a classical I can't help but think how comfy it is. I like the dead flat fretboard on them too.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Tone wood is irrelevant. Pickups, amp, and the player are the real deciding factors


----------



## Kobalt

Abalone is a product of something far worse than the powers of evil.

Oh, and Hipshots as well. Oh look at me, I have *12* protruding screws to adjust string action, I’m spehshull!


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Tone wood is irrelevant. Pickups, amp, and the player are the real deciding factors



Bro, you're just not lying to yourse- I mean, listening hard enough!


----------



## diagrammatiks

Kobalt said:


> Abalone is a product of something far worse than the powers of evil.
> 
> Oh, and Hipshots as well. Oh look at me, I have *12* protruding screws to adjust string action, I’m spehshull!




if all you're screws are protruding you need to rethink what you're doing and how you're doing it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> if all you're screws are protruding you need to rethink what you're doing and how you're doing it.



Or buy a grinder.


----------



## Kobalt

diagrammatiks said:


> if all you're screws are protruding you need to rethink what you're doing and how you're doing it.


Only one of the guitars I had had them slightly poking out, actually. My gripe is that there are 12 of the fuckers to adjust.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> What? All the amp demo guys I see are using 6 strings. Name me just one 8 string players doing amp demos, I can't think of even one.


Who mentioned 8 strings? I've seen a couple..but I mainly meant anything over 6 strings.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I've always heard that Floyds make guitars sound thinner, less bassy, more bright, etc...

Always been the opposite for me.

Almost every Floyd Rose guitar I've owned has actually been darker than it's hardtail counterpart. I think I had maybe ONE Floyd Rose guitar I thought sounded excellent. Sucks because I LOVE to use a Floyd Rose, and I love the feel, but every time I've tried one, they've always been too dark and muddy.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Tone wood is irrelevant. Pickups, amp, and the player are the real deciding factors



I find one of the most underrated parts of tone is pickup distance from the bridge/neck etc etc. The further the pickup is from the bridge, the darker it gets. The futher away the neck pickup is to the bridge/closer to the neck, the smoother it gets.


----------



## Wuuthrad

c7spheres said:


> I'd like to have a 7 string electric at exactly 26.0" scale and 52mm nut width. I don't know why there doens't seem to be any production models of it. Every time I pickup a classical I can't help but think how comfy it is. I like the dead flat fretboard on them too.



That sounds great I’ve wondered about that too, also when trying to find a wider 6 string board.

Maybe on reason they don’t make them is the width has been more about the picking (or plucking) hand in guitars of that size, at least Classicals.

And electric guitar is usually much different technique that doesn’t need the space for the R hand.


----------



## c7spheres

Wuuthrad said:


> That sounds great I’ve wondered about that too, also when trying to find a wider 6 string board.
> 
> Maybe on reason they don’t make them is the width has been more about the picking (or plucking) hand in guitars of that size, at least Classicals.
> 
> And electric guitar is usually much different technique that doesn’t need the space for the R hand.


 That's probably why. I forget. I'm a player that always hold his pick but also uses middle, ring, and pinky to finger pick as well, so hybrid style. I forget most people don't do that.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Boss metal zone is a decent pedal, but takes some time to learn it’s curve.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've always heard that Floyds make guitars sound thinner, less bassy, more bright, etc...
> 
> Always been the opposite for me.
> 
> Almost every Floyd Rose guitar I've owned has actually been darker than it's hardtail counterpart. I think I had maybe ONE Floyd Rose guitar I thought sounded excellent. Sucks because I LOVE to use a Floyd Rose, and I love the feel, but every time I've tried one, they've always been too dark and muddy.



oh damn I feel that but it's never really been something bad, my BC Rich is naturally a little darker but never muddy and compared to my roommate's LP it's deeper acoustically, plugged in on similar settings they sound nothing alike tho, he's got a JB compared to an X2N. It matches the resonance as well and my old beat up A6 still has the most resonance of anything I've ever played.

unpopular opinion, I love the JB in lower tunings and the X2N has good cleans

fight me


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

TheBolivianSniper said:


> oh damn I feel that but it's never really been something bad, my BC Rich is naturally a little darker but never muddy and compared to my roommate's LP it's deeper acoustically, plugged in on similar settings they sound nothing alike tho, he's got a JB compared to an X2N. It matches the resonance as well and my old beat up A6 still has the most resonance of anything I've ever played.
> 
> unpopular opinion, I love the JB in lower tunings and the X2N has good cleans
> 
> fight me


I used to have an X2N in the bridge of a USA rr1. Sounded pretty good actually.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> What? All the amp demo guys I see are using 6 strings. Name me just one 8 string players doing amp demos, I can't think of even one.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Gurgling diarrhea would sound better than that low end deprived, fizz factory.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

To each their own but...god that shit sounds horrible


----------



## c7spheres

Made my own djent guitar tone. Sounds friggin' awesome dudeBro's! : )

https://soundcloud.com/user-460395900/pink-noise


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> Made my own djent guitar tone. Sounds friggin' awesome dudeBro's! : )
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/user-460395900/pink-noise



I literally find that more pleasant than the shit in the videos I posted


----------



## Bogner

Cables don't matter... Oh, but they do grasshopper!

We spend all this money chasing the sounds in our head and many folks skimp on quality cables.


----------



## SexHaver420

Multiscale is a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.

There's no way to make an 8+ string sound decent on every string and fret through a normal cab (4x12) and head setup. Either the high or low strings are going to sound/feel bad to play.

Also the typical darkglass bass tone people seem to like sounds like ass and is just mids. This is what a good bass tone with a pick should sound like.


----------



## Necky379

Came to give an unpopular opinion but the last post was Bolt Thrower, Bolt Thrower rocks.

On topic, 33/Integrated Preamp/Grind/Liverkick/etc circuit kind of sucks and the cheapest TubeScreamer + good settings sounds better.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Necky379 said:


> Came to give an unpopular opinion but the last post was Bolt Thrower, Bolt Thrower rocks.
> 
> On topic, 33/Integrated Preamp/Grind/Liverkick/etc circuit kind of sucks and the cheapest TubeScreamer + good settings sounds better.


So basically you're saying Scott Ian and that goober from Meshugganah can shove it.


----------



## Necky379

Yes. As much as I love their music, and I do, I don’t approve of their boost choice. And that is my unpopular opinion this week.


----------



## FILTHnFEAR

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I literally find that more pleasant than the shit in the videos I posted



Honestly, just about every 8 string video I come across on YT or FB pages sounds at least that awful or worse. Unless they're doing some clean tone tapping or something like that, I instantly skip it.

I'll be thankful when the "as many strings, tuned as low as possible, with bridge cables" contest ends.

And actually some of the riffs aren't bad, but the tone just kills my interest in hearing it.

But as you said, to each their own.


----------



## gnoll

Necky379 said:


> Came to give an unpopular opinion but the last post was Bolt Thrower, Bolt Thrower rocks.
> 
> On topic, 33/Integrated Preamp/Grind/Liverkick/etc circuit kind of sucks and the cheapest TubeScreamer + good settings sounds better.



At least the Integrated Preamp has adjustable settings though...

But I think 1) Such an extreme sound gets old pretty fast and 2) It only really works on some (flubby) amps. Put it in front of something tighter and it turns very brittle.


----------



## budda

Bogner said:


> Cables don't matter... Oh, but they do grasshopper!
> 
> We spend all this money chasing the sounds in our head and many folks skimp on quality cables.



My poorer cables outlasted my nicer ones.


----------



## I play music

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>



You're actually more proofing my point than anything. All of those are VST demos, not amp demos. The only 8 string amp demo I can think of is this one video of Ola Englund's 132549013249124 videos. And he normally plays sixers, soo...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> My poorer cables outlasted my nicer ones.



Your cheaper ones might have outlasted your more expensive ones, but the better ones certainly did last longer. 

There's a difference between expensive and good, and I'd say most tend to go for either whatever is on hand (and adding tons more length) or whatever is _perceived_ as nice, regardless of actual quality.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> You're actually more proofing my point than anything. All of those are VST demos, not amp demos. The only 8 string amp demo I can think of is this one video of Ola Englund's 132549013249124 videos. And he normally plays sixers, soo...




It's an amp. Just admit you were wrong. Mind you I didn't even look for those. I was looking for amp sims and just came across all of those


----------



## jarledge

I still have and use a monster cable i bought back in 2012. It sold me on them. They are pretty much out of business now so I had to switch to mogami. I have yet to have a monster cable or mogami cable fail. We can debate the sound aspect all day, but a good cable with good ends holds up. 

i have heard 8 string demos that sound pretty good. I play mostly 8 strings and feel like my low end doesn't get too flubby/muddy. This the unpopular post so people can say whatever, I am not hating on how you feel. I think you are flat out wrong but again each to their own.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> You're actually more proofing my point than anything. All of those are VST demos, not amp demos. The only 8 string amp demo I can think of is this one video of Ola Englund's 132549013249124 videos. And he normally plays sixers, soo...


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

SexHaver420 said:


> Multiscale is a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.
> 
> There's no way to make an 8+ string sound decent on every string and fret through a normal cab (4x12) and head setup. Either the high or low strings are going to sound/feel bad to play.
> 
> Also the typical darkglass bass tone people seem to like sounds like ass and is just mids. This is what a good bass tone with a pick should sound like.



See also Anthrax, Frank Bello has a choice bass tone. In fact. Listen to Bolt Thrower and Anthrax today. Bonus if it’s Persistence of Time.


----------



## Adieu

SexHaver420 said:


> Multiscale is a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.
> 
> There's no way to make an 8+ string sound decent on every string and fret through a normal cab (4x12) and head setup. Either the high or low strings are going to sound/feel bad to play.
> 
> Also the typical darkglass bass tone people seem to like sounds like ass and is just mids. This is what a good bass tone with a pick should sound like.




Idk

Regular bass sounds pretty good thru certain 4x12 cabs with heavier-duty guitar speakers (65's and k85/k100's... iirc t75's worked pretty well too)

Then again if you're an 8-string player with a guitar stack, you might well consider getting a 4x12 2x15 stack or something


----------



## Jon Pearson

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>





It never ceases to amaze me how bad Mesa manages to make their own amps sound in demos.


----------



## gunch

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>





The choptones one sounded decent IMO

But I agree that there's really nothing you can do to make the whole range of an 8 sound equally good


----------



## Metropolis

Mocking on eight string guitars is such a boomer thing to do. I have never played or owned one, but still like how some players use them. Same applies to tuning elitism towards down tuned metal.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Adieu said:


> Idk
> 
> Regular bass sounds pretty good thru certain 4x12 cabs with heavier-duty guitar speakers (65's and k85/k100's... iirc t75's worked pretty well too)
> 
> Then again if you're an 8-string player with a guitar stack, you might well consider getting a 4x12 2x15 stack or something


That's why I like 12s and 15s for bass. They have a natural LPF that gets rid of a lot of annoying frequencies and you get mostly the growl and thump. Need more low end? Blend in some DI.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Metropolis said:


> Mocking on eight string guitars is such a boomer thing to do. I have never played or owned one, but still like how some players use them. Same applies to tuning elitism towards down tuned metal.


"You don't understand, Mom! It's NOT a phase!!!" is what I hear from this.


----------



## diagrammatiks

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>




that all sounds great.


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> "You don't understand, Mom! It's NOT a phase!!!" is what I hear from this.



Every time that joke is made, someone's Goth phase becomes eternal.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> Every time that joke is made, someone's Goth phase becomes eternal.



I mean..mine still hasn't ended


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I mean..mine still hasn't ended



There you go.


----------



## gunch

Here's one: use the lightest gauge strings you can get away with for your scale and tuning


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

gunch said:


> Here's one: use the lightest gauge strings you can get away with for your scale and tuning



YEP. Thick strings are overrated.


----------



## Jon Pearson

gunch said:


> Here's one: use the lightest gauge strings you can get away with for your scale and tuning



I'm about this, but with the caveat that i like balanced tension across the neck, so I end up in some case with a 10.5 on the 1st string and a 72 or 74 on the 7th string


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I'd add to that: Use gauges that are light as applicable, but do not go out of tune easily if you fret them. For instance, it is possible you might bend a string out of tune if you're heavy handed. Also, by "applicable," I mean what you're using a string for. If a string is used for bending and soloing, it should be lower tension compared to a low string used for fretting power chords and chugging. I like about 13lb on the high strings and 17lb on the low strings.


----------



## Jon Pearson

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'd add to that: Use gauges that are light as applicable, but do not go out of tune easily if you fret them. For instance, it is possible you might bend a string out of tune if you're heavy handed. Also, by "applicable," I mean what you're using a string for. If a string is used for bending and soloing, it should be lower tension compared to a low string used for fretting power chords and chugging. I like about 13lb on the high strings and 17lb on the low strings.



Interesting, I like right around 20 across the board


----------



## c7spheres

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'd add to that: Use gauges that are light as applicable, but do not go out of tune easily if you fret them. For instance, it is possible you might bend a string out of tune if you're heavy handed. Also, by "applicable," I mean what you're using a string for. If a string is used for bending and soloing, it should be lower tension compared to a low string used for fretting power chords and chugging. I like about 13lb on the high strings and 17lb on the low strings.





Jon Pearson said:


> Interesting, I like right around 20 across the board



Curious how/method/tool you guys are using to measure the tension.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

c7spheres said:


> Curious how/method/tool you guys are using to measure the tension.


There was a tension calculator spreadsheet shared on here a few years ago.


----------



## c7spheres

Spaced Out Ace said:


> There was a tension calculator spreadsheet shared on here a few years ago.


 Thanks. I was curious in case anyone has an actual tool for it. Was kinda thinking about seeing if one of these might work or if there's something better without breaking the bank. Seems like it would be too inconsistan though because just pulling harder or less probably varies it greatly, unless maybe a jig of some sort was made for consistant pull/height etc. 

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002PZPCM4/?tag=sevenstringorg-20


----------



## gnoll

I think heavy strings sound better, and you can hit them harder. Win-win.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

gnoll said:


> I think heavy strings sound better, and you can hit them harder. Win-win.



I use light-ish strings (9 - 46 in standard, 10 - 48 in drop C, 10 - 52 in B for example) and I can still beat the shit out of them.


----------



## Vyn

Being able to play lighter gauges without going out of tune means you have better technique. Also, you don't have to pick heavy to make it sound like your digging in with lighter gauges.


----------



## gnoll

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I use light-ish strings (9 - 46 in standard, 10 - 48 in drop C, 10 - 52 in B for example) and I can still beat the shit out of them.



I use heavier strings and they still go bwooooooiiiiiinnnnnggggg when I hit a chord.



Vyn said:


> Being able to play lighter gauges without going out of tune means you have better technique. Also, you don't have to pick heavy to make it sound like your digging in with lighter gauges.



Having good technique isn't rock'n'roll. And I think you do have to pick heavy to make it sound like you're digging in. Like, you're either digging in or you're not, you can't really fake that.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

gnoll said:


> I use heavier strings and they still go bwooooooiiiiiinnnnnggggg when I hit a chord.
> 
> 
> 
> Having good technique isn't rock'n'roll. And I think you do have to pick heavy to make it sound like you're digging in. Like, you're either digging in or you're not, you can't really fake that.


Well it's a relativity thing. Digging in with lighter strings on a guitar vs heavier strings, same tuning, you can hit lighter to sound like you're digging in.


----------



## gnoll

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Well it's a relativity thing. Digging in with lighter strings on a guitar vs heavier strings, same tuning, you can hit lighter to sound like you're digging in.



It doesn't sound the same.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

gnoll said:


> It doesn't sound the same.


How so.


----------



## Vyn

gnoll said:


> Having good technique isn't rock'n'roll.



I hate this excuse, it's probably the only thing that actually manages to trigger me music wise. Yes, some of the best musicians had absolutely garbage technique and made incredible music however that does not mean it's a defense for having shit technique.


----------



## Bogner

budda said:


> My poorer cables outlasted my nicer ones.


That's because you were busy using your fancy cables so much you wore them out.


----------



## Wuuthrad

Napalm Death kicks BOLTTHROWER’S toothless shit eater all day every day and twice on Sunday!


----------



## Wuuthrad

Both Carcass and Celtic Frost chew these BOLTS before breakfast coffee, spit them out and THROW them to their dogs in a game of fetch!


----------



## Wuuthrad

Pantera is a Southern Rock Dude Rock Glam Rock Frat Rock band of Macho Posers who could only pay to play until they copied Grunge fashion out of Vogue Magazine!


----------



## _MonSTeR_

Wuuthrad said:


> Pantera is a Southern Rock Dude Rock Glam Rock Frat Rock band of Macho Posers who could only pay to play until they copied Grunge fashion out of Vogue Magazine!



And seeing as this is the unpopular opinions on gear thread... would that be due to Dime’s choice of guitar, amp or hairspray?


----------



## laxu

SexHaver420 said:


> Multiscale is a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist.
> 
> There's no way to make an 8+ string sound decent on every string and fret through a normal cab (4x12) and head setup. Either the high or low strings are going to sound/feel bad to play.
> 
> Also the typical darkglass bass tone people seem to like sounds like ass and is just mids. This is what a good bass tone with a pick should sound like.




Multiscale solves the playability issue just fine. It also helps with clarity on the lower strings while keeping the higher ones sounding a bit sweeter due to not having as tight a scale length as single scale guitars. For 8-string tone you definitely have to make some compromises on the sound. Maybe these guitars should actually have split pickups and stereo outputs - one for the regular 6-strings and another for the two lowest strings. Then you could run them into different amps and dial them best for each range.

I've tried messing with dual amp rigs and crossovers on modelers but it's just not possible to separate the strings well enough.

I do agree about the Darkglass bass tone. It just sounds like clanking strings. It's not even the problem with the Darkglass units either, you can certainly get different sounds out of them.


----------



## lurè

Multiscale are totally fine and for 8 string are almost a go to if you play also leads.

27" or 28" on the lower register can handle drop E and D# totally fine.
If you need to go lower, just buy a 9 string.


----------



## Matt08642

90% of people have no clue what they want re:gear because 90% of them don't actually have any idea how to play guitar or bass, and spend no time actually trying to play any music to discover what tone they actually want. They just buy gear to look at and discuss on forums and finger point as to why they don't sound the way they want (I _need_ custom strings, I _need_ custom wound pickups for my _aggressive_ tone, I find that *whatever random thing they can spend more money on* is really going to give me that upper lower middle upper middle middle upper mid boost I've been searching for for 25 years, then I can finally settle down and work on learning how to alternate pick!)

Being broke for a solid decade of playing really helped enforce the playing aspect while I lusted over gear I could never afford. Now that I have the money to get some gear, each piece makes me remember it's all a complete meme and people have done more than I could ever dream with much, much less.

Hand Steve Vai or Dave Grohl or James Hetfield or some famous guitarist/musician with drive and inspiration a Squier, a cable, and a 15 watt tube amp and they'll probably do more with it I could with an AxeFX and Aristides ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## TedEH

I feel like I do the same thing with drum gear.

What's going to make me a better drummer.....? Is it practice? Rudiments?
Nah, I bet I just need more expensive pedals.


----------



## gnoll

Matt08642 said:


> 90% of people have no clue what they want re:gear because 90% of them don't actually have any idea how to play guitar or bass, and spend no time actually trying to play any music to discover what tone they actually want. They just buy gear to look at and discuss on forums and finger point as to why they don't sound the way they want (I _need_ custom strings, I _need_ custom wound pickups for my _aggressive_ tone, I find that *whatever random thing they can spend more money on* is really going to give me that upper lower middle upper middle middle upper mid boost I've been searching for for 25 years, then I can finally settle down and work on learning how to alternate pick!)
> 
> Being broke for a solid decade of playing really helped enforce the playing aspect while I lusted over gear I could never afford. Now that I have the money to get some gear, each piece makes me remember it's all a complete meme and people have done more than I could ever dream with much, much less.
> 
> Hand Steve Vai or Dave Grohl or James Hetfield or some famous guitarist/musician with drive and inspiration a Squier, a cable, and a 15 watt tube amp and they'll probably do more with it I could with an AxeFX and Aristides ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



I don't even like playing guitar. Even if I had all the gear in the world I wouldn't want to practice.


----------



## StevenC

Matt08642 said:


> 90% of people have no clue what they want re:gear because 90% of them don't actually have any idea how to play guitar or bass, and spend no time actually trying to play any music to discover what tone they actually want. They just buy gear to look at and discuss on forums and finger point as to why they don't sound the way they want (I _need_ custom strings, I _need_ custom wound pickups for my _aggressive_ tone, I find that *whatever random thing they can spend more money on* is really going to give me that upper lower middle upper middle middle upper mid boost I've been searching for for 25 years, then I can finally settle down and work on learning how to alternate pick!)
> 
> Being broke for a solid decade of playing really helped enforce the playing aspect while I lusted over gear I could never afford. Now that I have the money to get some gear, each piece makes me remember it's all a complete meme and people have done more than I could ever dream with much, much less.
> 
> Hand Steve Vai or Dave Grohl or James Hetfield or some famous guitarist/musician with drive and inspiration a Squier, a cable, and a 15 watt tube amp and they'll probably do more with it I could with an AxeFX and Aristides ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


On the other hand Steve Vai's best album is entirely down to being inspired by a piece of gear.


----------



## c7spheres

Matt08642 said:


> Being broke for a solid decade of playing really helped enforce the playing aspect while I lusted over gear I could never afford. Now that I have the money to get some gear, each piece makes me remember it's all a complete meme and people have done more than I could ever dream with much, much less.



Lot's of truth in this. When you have no money, a crappy amp, and guitar it forces you to experiment and get the most out of your gear. It's when you learn how to dial in an amp and tone to suit your playing. 
- It also forces you to play more and experiment more and how you get good and unique.
- It's why most people quit because that when shit gets real and you figure out if you really love it or not. 
- Ever noticed how a lot of great players or bands always had a pont in life where they were poor or on hard times or struggled greatly in some way?


----------



## c7spheres

- Putting a drive pedal in front of a tube amp isn't necessary. A lot of tube amps (even popular ones like some Marshalls) use clippiing diodes, just like drive pedals do. Doing this basically means you like the feel of a solid state input stage.


----------



## budda

Where's that new guy who hates everything? I'm sure he has some good ones.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

c7spheres said:


> - Putting a drive pedal in front of a tube amp isn't necessary. A lot of tube amps (even popular ones like some Marshalls) use clippiing diodes, just like drive pedals do. Doing this basically means you like the feel of a solid state input stage.


Definitely necessary to get some decent gain going with some amps.


----------



## c7spheres

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Definitely necessary to get some decent gain going with some amps.


 True but I find it funny to have a TS in front of a JCM 800 or something. To each their own. I guess doing that just makes it extra tight.


----------



## Vyn

c7spheres said:


> - Putting a drive pedal in front of a tube amp isn't necessary. A lot of tube amps (even popular ones like some Marshalls) use clippiing diodes, just like drive pedals do. Doing this basically means you like the feel of a solid state input stage.



This is why I use a Radial Tonebone Hot British in the front - basically a cheaty way to get that extra valve gain stage without having to mod every head.


----------



## Emperoff

Vyn said:


> This is why I use a Radial Tonebone Hot British in the front - basically a cheaty way to get that extra valve gain stage without having to mod every head.



A starved tube design isn't doing much as a "valve stage". Unless you run tubes at proper plate voltage they're just "pretty lights"


----------



## gnoll

I just view overdrives as eq, and interchange them with actual eq pedals. If I need to gain up an amp I prefer having something with a decent level boost rather than diodes clipping but at the same time I don't really mind some diode clipping. And sometimes overdrive pedals change the shape of their eq curve when you turn up the drive on them. If it works it works I guess.


----------



## Vyn

Emperoff said:


> A starved tube design isn't doing much as a "valve stage". Unless you run tubes at proper plate voltage they're just "pretty lights"



True. I still find it more convenient than modding, especially if it's something classic and worth a bit of coin.

That being said, an extra tube is going in the DSL20 along with a master volume and maybe some HF/LF gain control action.


----------



## Adieu

Emperoff said:


> A starved tube design isn't doing much as a "valve stage". Unless you run tubes at proper plate voltage they're just "pretty lights"



Shaddup

Bling is bling is its own justification


----------



## SexHaver420

Tube screamers sound bad and if you need one to make your amp sound decent your amp sucks.


----------



## Metropolis

Almost every amp needs a boost.


----------



## Necky379

SexHaver420 said:


> Tube screamers sound bad and if you need one to make your amp sound decent your amp sucks.



Eh, amps sound good without but nothing I’ve come across could achieve the boosted sound without a boost. Different sounds. For example, 5150 unboosted is great 5150 boosted is great. IMO Tubescreamers do not sound bad. Users certainly don’t need one with a good amp but if you want the TS sound you need a TS. I can definitely hear why someone would prefer an amp without and why someone would prefer the same amp with but one isn’t necessarily better than the other.


----------



## TedEH

IMO a boost is sometimes not about the amp but about the pickups. If you're already using EMGs or something, I can understand why you wouldn't want to add a boost to that regardless of the amp. Some guitars I've got just can't quite make it into similar territory without that boost.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Ice cold take: tones you love on records were likely done using unorthodox means and weird pieces of gear. There's no wrong or right way to tone as long as the sound that comes out is the intended sound.


----------



## budda

People chase double or quad tracked tones as lone guitarists then get mad when they can't reproduce it.

People want "in the room" amp tone but chase album tones.

It's a gear take when you realize what people have spent on gear chasing a sound that they wont really get until they hit a studio 

(This seems like free-for-all about music now, let me have this.)


----------



## Emperoff

Metropolis said:


> Almost every amp needs a boost.



If you play metal in drop Z. If not, you don't need it at all.


----------



## Metropolis

Emperoff said:


> If you play metal in drop Z. If not, you don't need it at all.



Every other moderately heavy rock/metal album since the 80's says otherwise.


----------



## Emperoff

Metropolis said:


> Every other moderately heavy rock/metal album since the 80's says otherwise.



Metal albums are also quad tracked, but you don't have 4 guitarists in your band, do you?

I prefer the sound of an unboosted amp 9/10 times if no low tunings are required.


----------



## Carl Kolchak

Metropolis said:


> Almost every amp needs a boost.


I think what more amps really need are less extreme tone sweeps. Much better I think would be for most amp makers to take their current settings and reduce them by 20% by removing the more unusable top bottom 10% and the top 10% so as to give more range to the sonic sweep spots. That said, my favorite recorded tone was gotten with a ts-boosted JCM800, so there's that.


----------



## Metropolis

Emperoff said:


> Metal albums are also quad tracked, but you don't have 4 guitarists in your band, do you?
> 
> I prefer the sound of an unboosted amp 9/10 times if no low tunings are required.



No, but for live two guitarists are usually enough to create width. Sometimes bands use backing tracks to have more happening in there.

Do you prefer it unboosted in an album, playing alone, or in a band/live?


----------



## Metropolis

Carl Kolchak said:


> I think what more amps really need are less extreme tone sweeps. Much better I think would be for most amp makers to take their current settings and reduce them by 20% by removing the more unusable top bottom 10% and the top 10% so as to give more range to the sonic sweep spots. That said, my favorite recorded tone was gotten with a ts-boosted JCM800, so there's that.



It isn't same to do it in the pre amp stage, but eq in front of should do similar thing. At least with less coloration what tubescreamers usually do.


----------



## Emperoff

Metropolis said:


> No, but for live two guitarists are usually enough to create width. Sometimes bands use backing tracks to have more happening in there.
> 
> Do you prefer it unboosted in an album, playing alone, or in a band/live?



- Tracking, sure. Not because the amp sounds better, but because it makes the source easier to mix (cut bass and raise mids? good). In any case, my boosters (Bloody Murder) are fairly transparent compared to usual suspects and act more like an HP filter.

- Playing alone... Depending of what I'm playing. I'm not gonna boost an amp to play blues or lead jamming as it compresses the dynamics too much for my liking. I think from C downwards they become necessary.

- Playing live? No way. My current bands don't have anything below D and it's completely unnecessary. I need to feel the air pushing when I'm palm muting and the sound guy will hi-pass if necessary anyway. In any case, channel 3 on my Sovereign can take care of any metal duties without a boost.


----------



## budda

No amps need to produce highs above 8k, while Im at it


----------



## lewis

TedEH said:


> IMO a boost is sometimes not about the amp but about the pickups. If you're already using EMGs or something, I can understand why you wouldn't want to add a boost to that regardless of the amp. Some guitars I've got just can't quite make it into similar territory without that boost.


on the other hand, boosting EMGs with an OD sounds GODLIKE !! hhaha


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Hot take of all hot takes: Gear is completely irrelevant. Just shut the fuck up and play what you have or whatever you get


----------



## lewis

budda said:


> *People chase double or quad tracked tones as lone guitarists then get mad when they can't reproduce it.*
> 
> *People want "in the room" amp tone but chase album tones*.
> 
> It's a gear take when you realize what people have spent on gear chasing a sound that they wont really get until they hit a studio
> 
> (This seems like free-for-all about music now, let me have this.)



Wasted over 10 years of my guitar life doing this until i realised.
The last 5 years have been way easier in that regard since.


----------



## lewis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Hot take of all hot takes: Gear is completely irrelevant. Just shut the fuck up and play what you have or whatever you get


guitars arent necessary either.
Literally sell everything and sit there pretending to be a good musician.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

lewis said:


> guitars arent necessary either.
> Literally sell everything and sit there pretending to be a good musician.



This only applies if you frequent gear forums. Playing doesn't even matter at that point which is why people rarely EVER have clips of them playing or doing anything important


----------



## lewis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This only applies if you frequent gear forums. Playing doesn't even matter at that point which is why people rarely EVER have clips of them playing or doing anything important


haha so true.

I had noticed that.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

lewis said:


> haha so true.
> 
> I had noticed that.



Oh I noticed. People always go on about how they found all these godlike tones and what some new piece of gear has done for them...but people rarely ever post clips, nobody is in a band with any recordings, everyone's phone is magically broken, etc, etc.

Some people get gear because it's a needed tool to make music. Some people just like buying shiny things as a hobby for instruments they barely play, if they can even play it at all


----------



## budda

I feel like forum people are more likely to support other forum people if they think their rig is cool.

Which explains replies and attendance to my tour posts


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> I feel like forum people are more likely to support other forum people if they think their rig is cool.
> 
> Which explains replies and attendance to my tour posts



Well that's the thing. Lots of people in these forums aren't even musicians..just dudes with a gear collection hobby. That's why they all go after the same sounds, the same gear, lust after the same bands, etc.

Every forum has it's stereotypical user because people develop hive mind in forums. Every now and then you'll get actual musicians who do stuff but the majority of forums is just a circle jerk of same-same dudes all wanting to be praised about their gear, and they WILL be praised because everyone has the same gear or wants it. It's an echo chamber for gear hobbyists


----------



## Metropolis

How something feels and sounds isn't irrelevant at all. Idea or an image about certain kind of gear is also so strong in world of guitars, it's never going to get away. Same applies to any other tool or hobby which includes some technical aspect to it.

People get into forums because they may be into same things, not the other way around.


----------



## StevenC

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Hot take of all hot takes: Gear is completely irrelevant. Just shut the fuck up and play what you have or whatever you get


This is a bad take. Not because it's wrong, because you don't need much gear to make music. But because you really do need gear to make different and new music. Which on a forum about new and different guitars should be our goal. 

There are whole genres of music that can't exist without gear and manipulation. 

Alternatively, if the take is "you don't need the best gear to make the best music" then that's an incredibly unhot take.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

StevenC said:


> This is a bad take. Not because it's wrong, because you don't need much gear to make music. But because you really do need gear to make different and new music. Which on a forum about new and different guitars should be our goal.
> 
> There are whole genres of music that can't exist without gear and manipulation.
> 
> Alternatively, if the take is "you don't need the best gear to make the best music" then that's an incredibly unhot take.



I said what I said. It's irrelevant. Use what you have to get what you want. Need something else? Grab it. But it's all just shit to use to get the job done.

Pontificating on which of the millions of Tube screamers to use, or which super strat when they're all the goddamn same is pointless.

Just get shit and go. You'll eventually end up with what you need when you need it. A hundred other people will get the same results with totally different things. There's no right or wrong way and the options are limitless. You can get any sound at any price point, hell, free is even an option lots of the time. 

It's all irrelevant. Spend more time on playing and less time thinking some piece of junk is gonna take you to the next level.


----------



## budda

In short, DT is saying get offline and actually play.

Which I back 100%.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> In short, DT is saying get offline and actually play.
> 
> Which I back 100%.


Yup. Stop worrying about if your 300 dollar boutique tube screamer made of parts that don't even equal 20 dollars has "pure tube warmth in an analog circuit". Just go play some shit


----------



## yan12

Agreed. I always say the older players were better because they were not bogged down with GAS...they just developed their style with what they had and it taught them control and nuance more than anything. The formula was guitar+marshall+practice all day every day=pretty damn good.


----------



## budda

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yup. Stop worrying about if your 300 dollar boutique tube screamer made of parts that don't even equal 20 dollars has "pure tube warmth in an analog circuit". Just go play some shit



This is why i like my axe fx. Got all my core sounds set. Spend 20m to try an idea with an effect and then 2 hours getting lost in it.


----------



## Emperoff

If all of us put the same time on playing guitar than we do on message boards talking about gear we'd outplay Steve Vai.

Back in the day there was no internet, no gear forums... You had to do something with your free time and that was playing the damn guitar until your fingers bled.


----------



## budda

Emperoff said:


> If all of us put the same time on playing guitar than we do on message boards talking about gear we'd outplay Steve Vai.
> 
> Back in the day there was no internet, no gear forums... You had to do something with your free time and that was playing the damn guitar until your fingers bled.



If I could harness the power of people posting about gear as discipline to practice, I'd actually be able to sweep pick.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> If I could harness the power of people posting about gear as discipline to practice, I'd actually be able to sweep pick.


----------



## BenjaminW

budda said:


> This is why i like my axe fx. Got all my core sounds set. Spend 20m to try an idea with an effect and then 2 hours getting lost in it.


The thing I like about Axe-Fx's are that you only have to spend your money once to get all the tone you desire, but the big drawback for me is that I feel like your GAS could get a lot worse for the real amp/pedal/whatever that Axe-Fx has modeled.


----------



## gnoll

People seem to think playing guitar is a better hobby than collecting gear. Why? Why does it even matter if people prefer collecting gear and have no ambition of playing well or even of making music at all? Some people collect stamps, and you couldn't make much music with those even if you tried, I think.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Emperoff said:


> If all of us put the same time on playing guitar than we do on message boards talking about gear we'd outplay Steve Vai.
> 
> Back in the day there was no internet, no gear forums... You had to do something with your free time and that was playing the damn guitar until your fingers bled.



hell no man. just more time masturbating.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> People seem to think playing guitar is a better hobby than collecting gear. Why? Why does it even matter if people prefer collecting gear and have no ambition of playing well or even of making music at all? Some people collect stamps, and you couldn't make much music with those even if you tried, I think.



They ain't making much music with the musical equipment they bought. The shit might as well be stamps


----------



## Emperoff

gnoll said:


> People seem to think playing guitar is a better hobby than collecting gear. Why? Why does it even matter if people prefer collecting gear and have no ambition of playing well or even of making music at all? Some people collect stamps, and you couldn't make much music with those even if you tried, I think.



Because usually these people have *very* strong opinions that turn them into clowns to people that *actually *plays. Pretending to be tone gurus when they can barely strike a note.

Imagine your hobby is collecting boxing gear. But you can't throw a punch to save your life. Now think how seriously real boxers will take your expertise in glove material or comfort.

Now that doesn't mean they're wrong. I can think of at least two master luthiers that can't really play, but they make some goddamn great guitars. But this always comes at a surprise when people find out. If you can prove your expertise in the technical side of things you don't really need to be a great player to be taken seriously. But if you are a terrible player with very expensive gear giving lessons to people while sounding like ass, you're not gonna get far. This video always come to mind on this subject:





diagrammatiks said:


> hell no man. just more time masturbating.



Well, that might actually improve your picking hand more than posting on forums


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They ain't making much music with the musical equipment they bought. The shit might as well be stamps



That's my point. You're not saying anything about people buying stamps, but because music gear COULD be used to make music, it's suddenly a problem that it's not? People buy all kinds of shit they don't use or need.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> That's my point. You're not saying anything about people buying stamps, but because music gear COULD be used to make music, it's suddenly a problem that it's not? People buy all kinds of shit they don't use or need.



Shh. Go play guitar


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Emperoff said:


> I can think of at least two master luthiers that can't really play, but they make some goddamn great guitars. But this always comes at a surprise when people find out.



Most builders in my experience really don't play guitar all that much, and those who have, haven't regularly in a long time. 

They're craftspeople and that's the art they've thrown themselves into. 

Which brings us to the fact that our hobbies and goals change as we age. I spent most of my teens and 20's gigging regularly, but now, not so much. Does experience expire like milk?


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> That's my point. You're not saying anything about people buying stamps, but because music gear COULD be used to make music, it's suddenly a problem that it's not? People buy all kinds of shit they don't use or need.



I think "why buy stuff that has a function if you dont plan to use that function" is a valid question. "Because I can" is a valid answer. But you may get made fun of .

As for GAS for the real amps of the axe fx, i dont understand that. Why would I want to spend more money to buy the real thing when I already have the digital version? Makes no sense.


----------



## diagrammatiks

I mean I don't actually guitar. 

But, that doesn't really matter because I can't really play guitar when I'm at work, or taking a shit, or putting my kids to bed, or driving. but I sure as hell can post on the forums when I'm doing all that.


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Most builders in my experience really don't play guitar all that much, and those who have, haven't regularly in a long time.
> 
> They're craftspeople and that's the art they've thrown themselves into.
> 
> Which brings us to the fact that our hobbies and goals change as we age. I spent most of my teens and 20's gigging regularly, but now, not so much. Does experience expire like milk?



Yup. Kind of a: Blacksmith =/= Soldier analogy.

About experience... Not if you mantain it. Not counting this year, I've gigged more in the last 5 years that when I was on my 20's. I sure can't play the solos or riffs I did back then smoothly, but I got better in many other areas and with a bit of work they would sound better than back then.

The best skill I learnt on my 20s was to make my "broke guy rig" sound badass. I hated my amp, and I only had three pedals, but I got to know how to dial stuff and now it's super easy to me to find workable sounds quickly in any amp.

Nowadays people freak out if an amp doesn't sound good at 6-6-6 EQ settings and come running here posting for boost advice. 



budda said:


> As for GAS for the real amps of the axe fx, i dont understand that. Why would I want to spend more money to buy the real thing when I already have the digital version? Makes no sense.



Me neither. Why the hell did I buy a Triaxis if I already had the digital version? A tasty mix of nostalgia plus an excuse to get into NOS tube wormhole? Perhaps... I don't have any regrets, though!


----------



## vilk

budda said:


> I think "why buy stuff that has a function if you dont plan to use that function" is a valid question.


 but make sure you don't ask it to car or gun guys lol


----------



## rokket2005

I don't gas for amps anymore either, rather I want more amps in the axe. Really just an ultralead since my vht is the only amp I have that isn't in it and my approximation with a micro amp into the jumpered hiwatt probably isn't as close as an official model would be.

Then I see idiots on the fractal forum asking for more Marshalls as if having 20% of the current amps being Marshalls wasn't enough.


----------



## budda

rokket2005 said:


> I don't gas for amps anymore either, rather I want more amps in the axe. Really just an ultralead since my vht is the only amp I have that isn't in it and my approximation with a micro amp into the jumpered hiwatt probably isn't as close as an official model would be.
> 
> Then I see idiots on the fractal forum asking for more Marshalls as if having 20% of the current amps being Marshalls wasn't enough.



I take it you've futzed with the D60?


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Shh. Go play guitar



Wow, turns out I kinda needed to hear that, lol...


----------



## Seabeast2000

I mean... there is a huge KnowledgeBase here as a direct result of gear whoring and enthusiasm.


----------



## budda

Seabeast2000 said:


> I mean... there is a huge KnowledgeBase here as a direct result of gear whoring and enthusiasm.



Is it huge or is it 100 guys repeating what the 10 actual owners said about the gear?


----------



## High Plains Drifter

I like the "What is the best _______?" And then 20 people chime in with what they use regardless of how good it actually is.


----------



## Seabeast2000

budda said:


> Is it huge or is it 100 guys repeating what the 10 actual owners said about the gear?



Good question. Proxy opinions is a thing.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Is it huge or is it 100 guys repeating what the 10 actual owners said about the gear?



Somebody buy this guy a beer


----------



## narad

budda said:


> Is it huge or is it 100 guys repeating what the 10 actual owners said about the gear?



You leave blackmachine out of this!


----------



## budda

narad said:


> You leave blackmachine out of this!



The hype train has left the station.


----------



## BenjaminW

diagrammatiks said:


> hell no man. just more time masturbating.


I mean there's nothing wrong in my opinion getting better at masturbating.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BenjaminW said:


> I mean there's nothing wrong in my opinion getting better at masturbating.



Getting better at it? Where you bad before? Jesus fuck I understand being bad with a woman, but if you can't even get yourself off, maybe the whole sex thing just isn't for you. Take up stamp collecting. I hear that's a good hobby according to some people in here


----------



## lurè

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Getting better at it? Where you bad before? Jesus fuck I understand being bad with a woman, but if you can't even get yourself off, maybe the whole sex thing just isn't for you. Take up stamp collecting. I hear that's a good hobby according to some people in here



I mean, it it should be the only thing you're the best at.


----------



## c7spheres

-


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Getting better at it? Where you bad before? Jesus fuck I understand being bad with a woman, but if you can't even get yourself off, maybe the whole sex thing just isn't for you. Take up stamp collecting. I hear that's a good hobby according to some people in here





lurè said:


> I mean, it it should be the only thing you're the best at.



Got my white belt when I was 11, had my black belt by the time I was 12


----------



## odibrom

... errr, the gear you guys are talking about is more physiological than musical... but by no means, please continue...


----------



## lurè

odibrom said:


> ... errr, the gear you guys are talking about is more physiological than musical... but by no means, please continue...



You know, when they say "tone is in the hands".


----------



## Bodes

This reminds me of an interview with (I think) Scott Ian, when he was asked about having one of the strongest right hands in the business...


----------



## BenjaminW

Bodes said:


> This reminds me of an interview with (I think) Scott Ian, when he was asked about having one of the strongest right hands in the business...


James Hetfield has another strong right hand, but it only downstrokes.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

If left to thier own devices, guys will always start talking about thier dicks. 

Onto the next Unpopular Internet Opinion thread.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Jesus Christ. Can you delete some of these idiotic replies? Thanks.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> If left to thier own devices, guys will always start talking about thier dicks.



Which has interesting implications on Godwin's law


----------



## c7spheres

narad said:


> Which has interesting implications on Godwin's law


 If you don't masturbate enough, you'll become an angry bitter man like Hitler!


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Thanks for ruining the thread so you could talk about pulling your pud. Which has what exactly to do with unpopular gear opinions?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Jesus Christ. Can you delete some of these idiotic replies? Thanks.



Start with ^^^^^


----------



## Science_Penguin

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Thanks for ruining the thread so you could talk about pulling your pud. Which has what exactly to do with unpopular gear opinions?



Well, nobody finds guitarists sexy by default anymore, and we're a bunch of geeks so... I'd say we're talking about pretty unpopular gear.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Oh..here's one. The tribal graphic on the Dean Graphyte series isn't really as bad in person. It grows on you. I originally wanted to repaint mine and now I like it too much.

If I ever get another one, I'm repainting it, but my first? I'm keeping as is


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Oh..here's one. The tribal graphic on the Dean Graphyte series isn't really as bad in person. It grows on you. I originally wanted to repaint mine and now I like it too much.
> 
> If I ever get another one, I'm repainting it, but my first? I'm keeping as is



It helps that it looks more like a weird fractal piece from a distance as opposed to a decal on some douchemobile or the tattoo of the guy who pines after said douchemobile.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Science_Penguin said:


> It helps that it looks more like a weird fractal piece from a distance as opposed to a decal on some douchemobile or the tattoo of the guy who pines after said douchemobile.



I've grown to really like it. I kinda wish it was some sort of modified (har har) version, not tribal but maybe something else kinda like the HR Giger guitars or something. I've never had a guitar that wasn't just one solid color, so it's unique to me. Also nobody else has one (because they have good taste), so my guitar stands out more


----------



## Randy

Ax-FX Standard and Ultra still sound just as good as newer models
More frets > More strings
Strandberg Classics > Bodens
Light strings > Heavy strings
24.75 > 25.5
Kahler > Floyd Rose
JMP-1 > TriAxis


----------



## odibrom

... we all need some laughs on the dick size talks, but lets move on for a few more pages...

...



Randy said:


> *JMP-1 > TriAxis*









... but since this is an opinion thread, I'm ok with yours


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Randy said:


> Ax-FX Standard and Ultra still sound just as good as newer models
> More frets > More strings
> Strandberg Classics > Bodens
> Light strings > Heavy strings
> 24.75 > 25.5
> Kahler > Floyd Rose
> JMP-1 > TriAxis



I always thought Kahlers would have been superior..they seem like the easier trem system so I dunno why most prefer Floyds


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I always thought Kahlers would have been superior..they seem like the easier trem system so I dunno why most prefer Floyds



Kahler, as a company, disappeared for over a decade, so there were less in the market and certainly no new guitars with them. 

They're also very, very different in feel and function, other than being big floating bridges they really don't share anything with Floyds. 

If it wasn't for the locking nut that both systems use we probably wouldn't see nearly as many comparisons between the two.


----------



## Science_Penguin

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I always thought Kahlers would have been superior..they seem like the easier trem system so I dunno why most prefer Floyds



Every guitarist I know who learned how to use a Kahler says they're the greatest trem available. I can't tell if its true or just Stockholm Syndrome from being forced to work with it for so long.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Start with ^^^^^


Start with fucking off, eh?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Science_Penguin said:


> Well, nobody finds guitarists sexy by default anymore, and we're a bunch of geeks so... I'd say we're talking about pretty unpopular gear.




Fine.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Randy said:


> Ax-FX Standard and Ultra still sound just as good as newer models
> More frets > More strings
> Strandberg Classics > Bodens
> Light strings > Heavy strings
> 24.75 > 25.5
> Kahler > Floyd Rose
> JMP-1 > TriAxis


Agree with some, disagree with others.

JMP-1, light strings, more frets, and Axe FX standard / ultra like sound good still (don't know if they sound better though).

Don't care for headless guitars (other than Vito's), 24.75 and 25.5 are equal in my opinion (depends on what you are going for tonally), and I'm not a fan of locking trems, but I'd probably go with a Floyd Rose over a Kahler.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Science_Penguin said:


> Every guitarist I know who learned how to use a Kahler says they're the greatest trem available. I can't tell if its true or just Stockholm Syndrome from being forced to work with it for so long.



It's a taste thing. They're just guitar bridges.


----------



## Randy

odibrom said:


> ... but since this is an opinion thread, I'm ok with yours



TriAxis is more versatile but the functionality is hobbled by a too complicated interface, and three shitty tones for every good one. The JMP-1 does like one or two things, both of them serviceable to good. Better interface and cutting out some filler would give the Triaxis the edge.

The MP-1 is better than either of them though.




DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I always thought Kahlers would have been superior..they seem like the easier trem system so I dunno why most prefer Floyds



Tuning stability can be an issue if you don't setup the strings right or maintain it. But the actual vibrato is 100x smoother than an FR, and the routing is less intrusive.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Randy said:


> Tuning stability can be an issue if you don't setup the strings right or maintain it. But the actual vibrato is 100x smoother than an FR, and the routing is less intrusive.


I don't know anything about Kahlers and I don't know much about Floyds. Hell I'm still half scared of the Floyd I have.

Is tuning stability a bigger issue than with the Floyd? I'm trying to figure out why most people go the Floyd route, especially with whiners always talking about cutting the wood out of the guitar and how it effects tone and whatnot. I would think Kahler would have won everyone over. I know you said it has to be set up and maintained but is it that inconvenient compared to a Floyd?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Start with fucking off, eh?


Sir, this is a Wendy's


----------



## Randy

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I don't know anything about Kahlers and I don't know much about Floyds. Hell I'm still half scared of the Floyd I have.
> 
> Is tuning stability a bigger issue than with the Floyd? I'm trying to figure out why most people go the Floyd route, especially with whiners always talking about cutting the wood out of the guitar and how it effects tone and whatnot. I would think Kahler would have won everyone over. I know you said it has to be set up and maintained but is it that inconvenient compared to a Floyd?



The FR benefit comes from the time they came out. People were hot rodding traditional guitars, and the FR was a new drop-in upgrade to a vintage trem. Before they got into recessing etc you just widen the two outside holes on a 6-screw vintage trem layout and drop in a pair of anchors and you're done.

The Kahler was more oriented toward a new scratch build. They offered a TOM variant but you still needed to route a deep hole in it that just didn't make it as practical of an upgrade option. As far as a brand new choice, definitely way more convenient to route than an FR.

As far as stability, the FRs weak point *and* strong point are the knife edges. There's other stuff that can go wrong but the functionality is almost entirely in the knife edge to stud contact point. Bad because they take so much stress that they inevitably fail and minimal wear will make it almost unusable, good because it's simple mechanism which makes it easy to dress or replace.

The tuning stability problem on the Kahler is the strings as they pass over the saddles. Bending the trem causes the curve of the string at the winding to change and you get flex in the gaps opening and closing as you bend the trem. This isnt always the case but the old workaround is soldering your windings (which I already do anyway). Parts don't wear out any faster than an FR, there's just less availability of them that limits your options, although I think the springs have more being asked of them and less tweakability.

I still like the Kahler better though. Better feel, and doesn't wear out to the point of being unusable as easily as an FR with it's knife edges. They also have built in fixed bridge locking and you don't need to cut the ball ends off. If Kahler got the same level of OEM and aftermarket support, I think it would've been more popular long term than the FR.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Randy said:


> The FR benefit comes from the time they came out. People were hot rodding traditional guitars, and the FR was a new drop-in upgrade to a vintage trem. Before they got into recessing etc you just widen the two outside holes on a 6-screw vintage trem layout and drop in a pair of anchors and you're done.
> 
> The Kahler was more oriented toward a new scratch build. They offered a TOM variant but you still needed to route a deep hole in it that just didn't make it as practical of an upgrade option. As far as a brand new choice, definitely way more convenient to route than an FR.
> 
> As far as stability, the FRs weak point *and* strong point are the knife edges. There's other stuff that can go wrong but the functionality is almost entirely in the knife edge to stud contact point. Bad because they take so much stress that they inevitably fail and minimal wear will make it almost unusable, good because it's simple mechanism which makes it easy to dress or replace.
> 
> The tuning stability problem on the Kahler is the strings as they pass over the saddles. Bending the trem causes the curve of the string at the winding to change and you get flex in the gaps opening and closing as you bend the trem. This isnt always the case but the old workaround is soldering your windings (which I already do anyway). Parts don't wear out any faster than an FR, there's just less availability of them that limits your options, although I think the springs have more being asked of them and less tweakability.
> 
> I still like the Kahler better though. Better feel, and doesn't wear out to the point of being unusable as easily as an FR with it's knife edges. They also have built in fixed bridge locking and you don't need to cut the ball ends off. If Kahler got the same level of OEM and aftermarket support, I think it would've been more popular long term than the FR.



Wow..thanks for that. I just learned something. Now I kinda want a guitar with a Kahler.


----------



## laxu

Metropolis said:


> Almost every amp needs a boost.


High gain amps need a low cut more than anything. A TS type pedal is just a cheap and convenient way to do it paired with a massive mid boost. EQ pedal would be more powerful and configurable.


----------



## laxu

BenjaminW said:


> The thing I like about Axe-Fx's are that you only have to spend your money once to get all the tone you desire, but the big drawback for me is that I feel like your GAS could get a lot worse for the real amp/pedal/whatever that Axe-Fx has modeled.


The bigger caveat is that you need to actually learn how to operate a studio worth of gear with these units to get the most out of them. This is probably the big reason why a lot of "man, guitar, overdrive and amp" folks shun them.

You can buy any top tier modeler on the market and can get pretty much every tone you would ever need out of them. It will just be the recorded tone (which to be fair is what people chase).


----------



## StevenC

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Wow..thanks for that. I just learned something. Now I kinda want a guitar with a Kahler.


Another benefit of the Kahler is they supposedly work better with MIDI pickups than regular pivoting terms do, if you're into that sort of thing. Hence why people like Fripp and Belew have used them for so long.


----------



## Rxcoma

Everyone hates on Behringer.. But anything parametric that they make. Works BEAUTIFULLY in a live guitar rig. Two shots for the Dual Channel Tube Ultra-Q in particular as well as the PEQ305. I LOVE them.! They were finally booted by the HHB Tube Radius 20 then the Art Dual Tube EQ being my all time FAV. But I sold my Moog 3 band before i sold the Ultra Q


----------



## Demiurge

^Behringer's pro audio stuff has always been pretty solid, in my experience.  The plastic pedals- of which there are some gems- really dinged their reputation.


----------



## odibrom

@Rxcoma I've read that those Behringer tube rack units had their tubes running really cold, so no real tone coloring there, and they have some leds to make them look like they're glowing... How do you feel on that? Honest question...

Also, I had a Boss VF1 back in the days... cool FX unit...


----------



## budda

laxu said:


> The bigger caveat is that you need to actually learn how to operate a studio worth of gear with these units to get the most out of them. This is probably the big reason why a lot of "man, guitar, overdrive and amp" folks shun them.
> 
> You can buy any top tier modeler on the market and can get pretty much every tone you would ever need out of them. It will just be the recorded tone (which to be fair is what people chase).



Define "getting the most out of them".

This implies people get the most out of other gear, and I bet 99% of members here just leave their volume and tone knobs dimed


----------



## diagrammatiks

budda said:


> Define "getting the most out of them".
> 
> This implies people get the most out of other gear, and I bet 99% of members here just leave their volume and tone knobs dimed



everything dimed. all the time. if it's good enough for tgp it's good enough for me.


----------



## Bogner

diagrammatiks said:


> everything dimed. all the time. if it's good enough for tgp it's good enough for me.


Do your tan pants go to 11?


----------



## BenjaminW

laxu said:


> The bigger caveat is that you need to actually learn how to operate a studio worth of gear with these units to get the most out of them. This is probably the big reason why a lot of "man, guitar, overdrive and amp" folks shun them.
> 
> You can buy any top tier modeler on the market and can get pretty much every tone you would ever need out of them. It will just be the recorded tone (which to be fair is what people chase).


Another thing I like about Axe-Fx's (even though this is a little unrelated to what you're saying) is that it's incredibly portable because if I was playing a small club, I'd rather bring my Axe-Fx instead of a cranked full stack Marshall. Sure, that's probably how people did it back in the day (I could be wrong), but I can get those same cranked tones in a box basically.

As I've probably said before, I don't have much experience with modeling and it's something I'd love to get into, but my modeling experience that I have is pretty much limited to GarageBand's amps/pedalboards and my Fender Champion 100.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

Thinner strings sound better, six strings are more comfortable to play. Better yet, make that neck fatter too. Skinny necks aren’t more comfortable in the long run. They might seem easier to play on, but they’re not.


----------



## Rxcoma

odibrom said:


> @Rxcoma I've read that those Behringer tube rack units had their tubes running really cold, so no real tone coloring there, and they have some leds to make them look like they're glowing... How do you feel on that? Honest question...
> 
> Also, I had a Boss VF1 back in the days... cool FX unit...


Honestly..if that was an issue..it WAS an issue.. Cuz now. It's no.. The tubes are INDEED active and it's VERY obvious. ALBEIT. Tone changes by switching tubes. If they were inactive. It render a switch futile..but no sir. The tubes are heavily present and you can control just how warm they get via the "warmth" attenuator.. The tube Q units. Are SEVERELY underrated. ESPECIALLY for guitar. They're wonderful units. .and just now gaining a well deserved little niche cult following.


----------



## Rxcoma

Oh.. And one of thr nastiest distortions ive ever built without tubes cakes courtesy of the virtualizer pro. So nod to that unit too


----------



## Gmork

Vintagey single coil PUs cant do metal.. Umm i highly disagree, im getting some nasty ass distorted tones from my 70s classic vibe jag


----------



## I play music

Gmork said:


> Vintagey single coil PUs cant do metal.. Umm i highly disagree, im getting some nasty ass distorted tones from my 70s classic vibe jag


I have had horrible noise problems with true single coils live but for recording, they are cool


----------



## Bogner

The lower the tuning the heavier the riff...


----------



## rokket2005

My Lollar Special T in my asat is probably the best sounding pickup I've ever used. Sounds awesome for heavy stuff


----------



## odibrom

@Rxcoma thank you for your reply, I've been reading mixed reviews on those units, the EQ, the preamp and the compressor (I think they were 3...?)

@Bogner tuning is more of a setting, not necessarily GEAR, but, we can deal with that...


----------



## viifox

I can't stand Orange cabs. I find them to be great for cleans, but anything distorted and heavy they just sound like a blanket covering the speaker. Not sure if it's the thicker wheat grill, or what.

It's too bad, because i think they look awesome, and they have excellent bass response.


----------



## MASS DEFECT

5150II is the best 5150. The middle child doesn't get enough love.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

viifox said:


> I can't stand Orange cabs. I find them to be great for cleans, but anything distorted and heavy they just sound like a blanket covering the speaker. Not sure if it's the thicker wheat grill, or what.
> 
> It's too bad, because i think they look awesome, and they have excellent bass response.



I've been curious about it. Didn't think abou the grillcloth but I always assumed it was the construction. I always wanted to hear an Avatar Contemporary 4x12 compared to an Orange 4x12 because they seem very similar.


----------



## budda

viifox said:


> I can't stand Orange cabs. I find them to be great for cleans, but anything distorted and heavy they just sound like a blanket covering the speaker. Not sure if it's the thicker wheat grill, or what.
> 
> It's too bad, because i think they look awesome, and they have excellent bass response.



Run a jcm800 through it, no blanket


----------



## Vyn

String gauge matters when tone chasing - if you're using drastically different gauges to the original artist, you're going to be pulling your hair out for ages.

String gauge however doesn't matter if you're doing your own thing, can go as light as you want or as heavy as you want. Chill and play guitar


----------



## viifox

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've been curious about it. Didn't think abou the grillcloth but I always assumed it was the construction. I always wanted to hear an Avatar Contemporary 4x12 compared to an Orange 4x12 because they seem very similar.


Did you notice that too? Or is it just me? I tried multiple Orange cabs, and they all had that muffled sound.


----------



## viifox

budda said:


> Run a jcm800 through it, no blanket


Oh, really? I've tried multiple amps through them, but the result was always the same.

What is it about the jcm800 that makes it work with the Orange cabs better than other amps?


----------



## TedEH

Last time I tried an Orange cab it was the same. Very bright amp sounded dark through that thing. It didn't sound bad, just very dark.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I always wanted to hear an Avatar Contemporary 4x12 compared to an Orange 4x12 because they seem very similar.



I've had both (PPC and Contemporary) in the same room and they are pretty much identical, even weighed about the same. For awhile Avatar was even putting the "skis" on the bottom. Bummer Avatar doesn't make the any more.

Truthfully, the Avatar seemed better made.

The only Orange cab worth a damn stock was the HP8. Those things fucking screamed.


----------



## laxu

Orange cabs are the kind of product that isn't really all that well made (check their construction video on YT) but more than good enough for its purpose. I've only tried them with Orange amps and that pairing has always sounded fine to me.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

laxu said:


> Orange cabs are the kind of product that isn't really all that well made (check their construction video on YT) but more than good enough for its purpose. I've only tried them with Orange amps and that pairing has always sounded fine to me.



They're just so relatively expensive over here so they get compared to much better built and more feature rich/flexible products based purely on where they fall in line. 

For instance you can get a Mesa Recto, Bogner Uberkab, or Marshall 1960 for less without even going used. 

That said, they do have thier own thing, so plenty of folks are willing to pay the tax. I certainly loved the HP8 I got to use for awhile, so I too see the appeal.


----------



## MatrixClaw

Unpopular opinion:

The Diezel VH4 is a mediocre sounding amp with too many options.

#shotsfired


----------



## MaxOfMetal

MatrixClaw said:


> Unpopular opinion:
> 
> The Diezel VH4 is a mediocre sounding amp with too many options.
> 
> #shotsfired



It's definitely not the over the top, uber-brutal no nonsense metal amp that people expect it to be, that's for sure. It's really more of a modded Marshall kind of thing with more options. It can definitely do contemporary metal, but there's a reason the olds over on TGP dig it too.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Here's one, it's more of a musing:

What the fuck is up with these guitars with multiple output jacks? I'm not talking about stereo wiring, just two jacks wired up. 

Like what Aristides is doing with thier headless: 




I understand it's because people complain about the cable getting in the way of thier leg when seated, but wouldn't a more simple, and arguably more elegant, solution be to just mount the jack on the front?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Apparently it was designed, in part, to cover the VH sound (and beyond). Or their version of it, rather.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

MaxOfMetal said:


> Here's one, it's more of a musing:
> 
> What the fuck is up with these guitars with multiple output jacks? I'm not talking about stereo wiring, just two jacks wired up.
> 
> Like what Aristides is doing with thier headless:
> 
> View attachment 85328
> 
> 
> I understand it's because people complain about the cable getting in the way of thier leg when seated, but wouldn't a more simple, and arguably more elegant, solution be to just mount the jack on the front?


I think it is done for seated as well as wired vs wireless purposes, perhaps.


----------



## budda

viifox said:


> Oh, really? I've tried multiple amps through them, but the result was always the same.
> 
> What is it about the jcm800 that makes it work with the Orange cabs better than other amps?



I think its the higher midrange and where one sets the presence knob.

I had a jcm800 G12-65 cab before my ppc412, and didnt notice a lot of difference when I switched.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

budda said:


> I think its the higher midrange and where one sets the presence knob.
> 
> I had a jcm800 G12-65 cab before my ppc412, and didnt notice a lot of difference when I switched.



Orange PPCs do like Marshalls.


----------



## laxu

MaxOfMetal said:


> They're just so relatively expensive over here so they get compared to much better built and more feature rich/flexible products based purely on where they fall in line.
> 
> For instance you can get a Mesa Recto, Bogner Uberkab, or Marshall 1960 for less without even going used.
> 
> That said, they do have thier own thing, so plenty of folks are willing to pay the tax. I certainly loved the HP8 I got to use for awhile, so I too see the appeal.



Meanwhile across the pond you can find Marshall 1960s for little money used (but those G12T75 speakers...ugh) while new Mesa and Bogner cabs are priced higher than say Diezel cabs. Orange PPC412 is about 500 euros cheaper than the Mesa Recto 4x12.

To me a lot of cabs are overpriced for what they are and having things like finger joints are not at all necessary. I just wish there were more options using something other than birch ply so the cabs would not be so god damn heavy.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

laxu said:


> Meanwhile across the pond you can find Marshall 1960s for little money used (but those G12T75 speakers...ugh) while new Mesa and Bogner cabs are priced higher than say Diezel cabs. Orange PPC412 is about 500 euros cheaper than the Mesa Recto 4x12.
> 
> To me a lot of cabs are overpriced for what they are and having things like finger joints are not at all necessary. I just wish there were more options using something other than birch ply so the cabs would not be so god damn heavy.



Yeah, a brand new PPC412 is like $1200. A new Uberkab is like $1100. Used, cut it in half, especially if folks are stuck and can't ship.

I've tried all kinds of cabs made of lighter stuff and they wind up being fairly flimsy or even rattle when used. You can go with something smaller, but then it doesn't sound like a 4x12. Neo speakers help a lot though (as much as 30lbs depending), and the options are decent compared to a decade or two ago. 

I think a lot of cab pricing is based on the idea that they can last just about forever with no maintenance so long as you don't do something really stupid. It's like buying furniture.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

viifox said:


> Did you notice that too? Or is it just me? I tried multiple Orange cabs, and they all had that muffled sound.





MaxOfMetal said:


> I've had both (PPC and Contemporary) in the same room and they are pretty much identical, even weighed about the same. For awhile Avatar was even putting the "skis" on the bottom. Bummer Avatar doesn't make the any more.
> 
> Truthfully, the Avatar seemed better made.
> 
> The only Orange cab worth a damn stock was the HP8. Those things fucking screamed.



I'm guessing cab thickness/weight plays a part in it then?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I'm guessing cab thickness/weight plays a part in it then?



There are some pretty in-depth writeups, and I'm certainly no expert, but it's more about the rigidity of the material and dimensions.


----------



## Jon Pearson

On the subject of cabs, heres an unpopular opinion:

I think we are all stuck on baltic birch ply purely based on tradition. If we wanted the best sounding cab, we would get a high density fiberboard (void free) and cover it in some kind of epoxy/resin style coating completely on the outside for waterproofing, and then have 3 people to lift it.


----------



## diagrammatiks

the port city ported cab is the best commonly available cab that exists.


----------



## Jon Pearson

diagrammatiks said:


> the port city ported cab is the best commonly available cab that exists.



Is this unpopular? I figured anyone who's played one would certainly agree.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Jon Pearson said:


> Is this unpopular? I figured anyone who's played one would certainly agree.



I'm trying to you know, get in on the conversation.


----------



## Jon Pearson

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm trying to you know, get in on the conversation.



Fair enough. In any case, you're right - Port City makes the best damn cabs out there. Port City, Mojotone and Splawn are out there repping NC in the best way.


----------



## efiltsohg

Orange and Mesa cabs are so massively overpriced on the used market


----------



## jarledge

i'd argue that the genz benz g-flex cabs are the most common/affordable ported cabs , and they sound really great. I have a 4x12 g-flex that i planned on swapping out the speakers in, until i actually got it. I am going to leave it stock for a bit, I still may eventually do an x pattern with stocks and something else or if I am feeling crazy I might do an x with swamp thangs, and texas heats. 

that isn't to say port city cabs aren't good. I think I have only ever tired one, and that was way back so I don't have any valid opinion on them. 

for the US guys, avatar makes some killer stuff for reasonable. Apparently they also have some ported designs as well. www.avatarspeakers.com 

I'll also reiterate that speakers make a substantial difference, and not just the speaker but also how the cab and speaker work together. I don't like v30s very much. If you pair them with the right speaker they sound great, but on their own, I am not a fan. I also don't like greenbacks by themselves, but again paired with the right speaker they sound fantastic. The same can be said for the hot 100 or g12t-75. The only celestion i think i outright like as it is, is the g12m-65 creamback. They are great speakers for all around IMO, but pair a 65 and 75 creamback and it is that much better. 

I see everyone shit on one amp or another, but I wonder if you guys tried them with different cabs and different speakers before calling something bad, trash, or whatever.


----------



## diagrammatiks

jarledge said:


> i'd argue that the genz benz g-flex cabs are the most common/affordable ported cabs , and they sound really great. I have a 4x12 g-flex that i planned on swapping out the speakers in, until i actually got it. I am going to leave it stock for a bit, I still may eventually do an x pattern with stocks and something else or if I am feeling crazy I might do an x with swamp thangs, and texas heats.
> 
> that isn't to say port city cabs aren't good. I think I have only ever tired one, and that was way back so I don't have any valid opinion on them.
> 
> for the US guys, avatar makes some killer stuff for reasonable. Apparently they also have some ported designs as well. www.avatarspeakers.com
> 
> I'll also reiterate that speakers make a substantial difference, and not just the speaker but also how the cab and speaker work together. I don't like v30s very much. If you pair them with the right speaker they sound great, but on their own, I am not a fan. I also don't like greenbacks by themselves, but again paired with the right speaker they sound fantastic. The same can be said for the hot 100 or g12t-75. The only celestion i think i outright like as it is, is the g12m-65 creamback. They are great speakers for all around IMO, but pair a 65 and 75 creamback and it is that much better.
> 
> I see everyone shit on one amp or another, but I wonder if you guys tried them with different cabs and different speakers before calling something bad, trash, or whatever.



I had some avatars that were very good. and they do make a 112 ported now which is super interesting. 

But there's a used gear versus new gear dilemma. I got my 3 port cities for 450-500 each loaded back at the height of tgp used gear. Selling the v30s and buying scum backs set my back like 650 per cab.

And cabs last almost forever. So I'm never buying another cab.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

People who come to gear forums aren't looking for the most logical solution to a problem...they just wanna jerk off over gear they don't need.

If I see one more goddamn gear recommendation thread where there's a simple, cheap, effective answer...and everyone chimes in by name dropping a bunch of boutique and "non usual" nonsense in the most convoluted chains possible...


----------



## Adieu

^

Prestige or maybe cheap ESP > TS clone > used 6505+.

Done and gtfo.


----------



## Seabeast2000

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> People who come to gear forums aren't looking for the most logical solution to a problem...they just wanna jerk off over gear they don't need.
> 
> If I see one more goddamn gear recommendation thread where there's a simple, cheap, effective answer...and everyone chimes in by name dropping a bunch of boutique and "non usual" nonsense in the most convoluted chains possible...



I recommend a Boss Slow Gear.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> People who come to gear forums aren't looking for the most logical solution to a problem...they just wanna jerk off over gear they don't need.
> 
> If I see one more goddamn gear recommendation thread where there's a simple, cheap, effective answer...and everyone chimes in by name dropping a bunch of boutique and "non usual" nonsense in the most convoluted chains possible...



You don't need "boutique", you need "effective". What are your _needs_ as a player? Address them. I've been using the same Boss BCB-60 pedalboard for like 10 years. I got it for 40 bucks and it can fit just what I need: A wah, a noise gate, a preamp, an EQ and a delay. Maybe also a mini pedal of some sort.

You can be "effective" with your stuff instead of getting into expensive and convoluted workarounds. For example instead of buying a 300$ switcher to enable my boost and delay, I just bought a Boss DM-2 which has the same switch as the PQ3B EQ so I can stomp on both at once. Simple.

Despite popular belief, you can use boosts without the "level" dimed. Just set them to unity gain and enjoy the EQ curve you came looking for, without smashing the dynamics of your amp. This way you can still use the clean channel.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

"What boost do I need for my recto/5150?"

In comes a million ass hats with a bunch of nonsense and expensive pedals when the most logical solution is a cheap used tubescreamer...especially for a person not used to boosting and just needs something to get them used to the concept. A 20 dollar solution that everyone is looking over for a bunch of 100 dollar pedals.

"What recording rig do I need?"

In comes a million idiots with a bunch of expensive and convoluted solutions. You can get good guitar sounds for free. Get a used Scarlett interface, download a bunch of free amp and cab sims and go to town. If you don't know much about it the last thing you need to do is spend a bunch of money on extra shit you don't even know how to use.


"What guitar should I use for metal?"

In comes a bunch of tards name dropping shit that is more expensive than it needs to be. Get a used ESP or Epiphone. They usually come with all the bells and whistles you need at a decent quality, especially if you aren't sure what specs you want yet.


99 percent of the gear questions in forums could be answered with buy some used shit and go from there...but rarely is that EVER the answer


----------



## nickgray

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 99 percent of the gear questions in forums



Tbh, I think the biggest problem is that people don't want to do their own research. It's especially apparent on more popular sites like reddit, where you constantly see completely idiotic newbie posts that are a couple of sentences long at best that ask super basic questions that have been answered countless times in the past.

Another common mistake is thinking there's a silver bullet of some kind. Like which guitar is best, or what is the one thing that helped you the most, something along those lines.


----------



## StevenC

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> "What boost do I need for my recto/5150?"
> 
> In comes a million ass hats with a bunch of nonsense and expensive pedals when the most logical solution is a cheap used tubescreamer...especially for a person not used to boosting and just needs something to get them used to the concept. A 20 dollar solution that everyone is looking over for a bunch of 100 dollar pedals.


Except this is the wrong answer, because the correct answer is a Diezel Herbert pedal.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

StevenC said:


> Except this is the wrong answer, because the correct answer is a Diezel Herbert pedal.


No


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> No


----------



## Science_Penguin

"What guitar should I use for Metal?"

The answer to that should be obvious: ANYTHING!


----------



## budda

If only people used the search function...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> If only people used the search function...



Isn't the search function on most forums absolute ass?


----------



## nickgray

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Isn't the search function on most forums absolute ass?



True, but there's always Google:

*best guitar for djent site:www.sevenstring.org*


----------



## Shask

nickgray said:


> Tbh, I think the biggest problem is that people don't want to do their own research. It's especially apparent on more popular sites like reddit, where you constantly see completely idiotic newbie posts that are a couple of sentences long at best that ask super basic questions that have been answered countless times in the past.
> 
> Another common mistake is thinking there's a silver bullet of some kind. Like which guitar is best, or what is the one thing that helped you the most, something along those lines.


Sadly, it seems like most younger people cant do anything unless someone holds their hand and does it for them. People are looking for other people to tell them what to do.

(As a teacher of younger people in my day job, I had a break-down the other day complaining about how younger people suck with technology, despite everyone thinking they are good with it....)


----------



## Shask

Emperoff said:


> Despite popular belief, you can use boosts without the "level" dimed. Just set them to unity gain and enjoy the EQ curve you came looking for, without smashing the dynamics of your amp. This way you can still use the clean channel.


Yeah, generally find 1-3 oclock for the level on most boost pedals to be plenty.


----------



## budda

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Isn't the search function on most forums absolute ass?



I think it would depend on the search terms, no?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> I think it would depend on the search terms, no?



I remember even the mods said the search engine here blew, which is why they recommended doing the search in google while using "site:sevenstring.org" or whatever forum you use.


----------



## Adieu

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Isn't the search function on most forums absolute ass?





budda said:


> I think it would depend on the search terms, no?



It really IS

For example, Jackson model names are often too short to be an "acceptable" search parameter. And search for something like Jackson RR3 or Jackson COW, and you'll get ALL the Jackson matches regardless of your second parameter


----------



## Emperoff

Just another observation:

People go nuts around here with tube amps and preamps, yet no one gives a damn about the actual tubes.  Last reply on the preamp tube thread was on June.

It's like: "we want tubes. We don't give a damn which ones, as long as they glow".


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> Just another observation:
> 
> People go nuts around here with tube amps and preamps, yet no one gives a damn about the actual tubes.  Last reply on the preamp tube thread was on June.
> 
> It's like: "we want tubes. We don't give a damn which ones, as long as they glow".



To be fair...the changes in tubes are subtle and in a band mix and studio setting it barely matters.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> To be fair...the changes in tubes are subtle and in a band mix and studio setting it barely matters.



And changes in 300$ pickups aren't? Because there's thousands of threads about those


----------



## ATRguitar91

One thing I don't understand around here is buying new stuff and then returning it. I get that it's the store policy and they accept that, but I just don't like to do it. 

If I'm buying something I'm pretty sure it's something I'm going to like. I also feel like you need a good amount of time with a piece of gear to get comfortable with it. Returning after a few days doesn't give you enough time.

That said, I buy everything I can used so returning isn't an option.


----------



## Emperoff

ATRguitar91 said:


> One thing I don't understand around here is buying new stuff and then returning it. I get that it's the store policy and they accept that, but I just don't like to do it.
> 
> If I'm buying something I'm pretty sure it's something I'm going to like. I also feel like you need a good amount of time with a piece of gear to get comfortable with it. Returning after a few days doesn't give you enough time.
> 
> That said, I buy everything I can used so returning isn't an option.



Well, sometimes you don't have a choice. I had to do it when I bought my current monitors. I don't have any pro audio store to listen and compare, and monitor speakers are not something you can hear a demo. So I ended up buying two pairs to compare side by side and return the ones I liked less.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> And changes in 300$ pickups aren't? Because there's thousands of threads about those



Pickups I feel impact a sound more than the tubes. You can severely change a sound by changing pickups. Tubes effect the character of a sound but don't make as big as a difference. A pickup swap can be the make or break for a guitar. A tube swap is only gonna do but so much and if you don't like the tone of the amp itself a tube change isn't gonna be the deciding factor to keep it unless we're talking something like noise


----------



## MaxOfMetal

ATRguitar91 said:


> One thing I don't understand around here is buying new stuff and then returning it. I get that it's the store policy and they accept that, but I just don't like to do it.
> 
> If I'm buying something I'm pretty sure it's something I'm going to like. I also feel like you need a good amount of time with a piece of gear to get comfortable with it. Returning after a few days doesn't give you enough time.
> 
> That said, I buy everything I can used so returning isn't an option.



That's pretty much one of the major benefits to buying new. Why should someone get stuck with a piece of shit? 

I've bought two or three guitars or amps and kept the best, that's a benefit.

Especially with retailers that don't both even opening the box before sending it out.


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Pickups I feel impact a sound more than the tubes. You can severely change a sound by changing pickups. Tubes effect the character of a sound but don't make as big as a difference. A pickup swap can be the make or break for a guitar. A tube swap is only gonna do but so much and if you don't like the tone of the amp itself a tube change isn't gonna be the deciding factor to keep it unless we're talking something like noise



Don’t you run a a digital modeler? lol (pardon me if I’m wrong)


Tube type certainly does make a difference in my experience- both type and brand function in different ways. You can measure this scientifically and just by listening.

I don’t think it’s accurate to say tubes more or less than pickups though, as they are all part of the overall sound.

For example, various single coils through a sovtek or a groovtube will sound completely different than various humbuckers.

There’s way to many variables.


Overall, I think playing your guitar and adjusting the knobs on stock pickups is a much better way to get tones than swapping pickups, which to me seems like a waste of time really.


----------



## Boofchuck

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> "99 percent of the gear questions in forums could be answered with buy some used shit and go from there...but rarely is that EVER the answer


Interesting, I feel like that is the response that I most often see here. Thus the adage of getting a 5150 and a used Prestige being a meme. To be fair though, this is the only forum I frequent.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> Don’t you run a a digital modeler? lol (pardon me if I’m wrong)
> 
> 
> Tube type certainly does make a difference in my experience- both type and brand function in different ways. You can measure this scientifically and just by listening.
> 
> I don’t think it’s accurate to say tubes more or less than pickups though, as they are all part of the overall sound.
> 
> For example, various single coils through a sovtek or a groovtube will sound completely different than various humbuckers.
> 
> There’s way to many variables.
> 
> 
> Overall, I think playing your guitar and adjusting the knobs on stock pickups is a much better way to get tones than swapping pickups, which to me seems like a waste of time really.



I use digital stuff BECAUSE I used tube amps and found the digital route to be simpler. I went through the whole thing of a million tube swaps and comparisons, and mods, and this and that.

Ultimately tubes can change a sound but in a minimal way. If you hate the Recto sound..swapping the tubes isn't gonna turn it into a Marshall or Fender for you. You want a little more gain, less gain, a bit more low end, less high end, etc then tube swaps will work..but that's all they do. They change small things but at their best they will never completely change the base tone of an amp.

Pickups can completely ruin a guitar to the point of making it unusable. There's certainly a difference between not only pickup types, but pickup brands, etc. They ARE the sound of the guitar and if they aren't right, nothing is gonna fix the problem like changing the pickups. They are responsible for tone, output, feel, sensitivity, and versatility.

Tubes are almost the last thing in the chain of tone chasing and aren't nearly as important as what speakers you're using and what pickups you've got


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I use digital stuff BECAUSE I used tube amps and found the digital route to be simpler. I went through the whole thing of a million tube swaps and comparisons, and mods, and this and that.
> 
> Ultimately tubes can change a sound but in a minimal way. If you hate the Recto sound..swapping the tubes isn't gonna turn it into a Marshall or Fender for you. You want a little more gain, less gain, a bit more low end, less high end, etc then tube swaps will work..but that's all they do. They change small things but at their best they will never completely change the base tone of an amp.
> 
> Pickups can completely ruin a guitar to the point of making it unusable. There's certainly a difference between not only pickup types, but pickup brands, etc. They ARE the sound of the guitar and if they aren't right, nothing is gonna fix the problem like changing the pickups. They are responsible for tone, output, feel, sensitivity, and versatility.
> 
> Tubes are almost the last thing in the chain of tone chasing and aren't nearly as important as what speakers you're using and what pickups you've got




Fair enough, I can agree with you in part on just about everything, and it doesn’t really matter one way or the other if I do! It does make sense the way you describe it. I think I approach it differently. I’ll get a good enough sound out of whatever I’m using and just play. So for electric guitar it’s a combination of analog amps, solid state or tube and pedals. The digital thing is ok for some, and I use digital effects, I just like to keep guitar the same as how it was when I started. Plenty of options for everyone!

I do think that you can get great variety of sound with 2 vol 2 tone no matter what.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> Fair enough, I can agree with you in part on just about everything, and it doesn’t really matter one way or the other if I do! It does make sense the way you describe it. I think I approach it differently. I’ll get a good enough sound out of whatever I’m using and just play. So for electric guitar it’s a combination of analog amps, solid state or tube and pedals. The digital thing is ok for some, and I use digital effects, I just like to keep guitar the same as how it was when I started. Plenty of options for everyone!



Honestly that's how I've become. I'm such a gear pessimist now because I feel like if you're worth anything, you can make almost anything sound good. I'm not into buying a bunch of shit, swapping parts a million times, etc. What I have and use, I do because it's practical and fits my needs..otherwise I'm not gonna bother with it. I used to be on this forum and was the typical gear chaser and tone tinkerer...now I don't bother.

I did recently upgrade my guitar with stuff but it was all practical stuff I needed to make the guitar a 1 stop shop for all my live and studio needs without having to use multiple guitars. These days I like shit simple because it's the most logical way to get things done.


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Honestly that's how I've become. I'm such a gear pessimist now because I feel like if you're worth anything, you can make almost anything sound good. I'm not into buying a bunch of shit, swapping parts a million times, etc. What I have and use, I do because it's practical and fits my needs..otherwise I'm not gonna bother with it. I used to be on this forum and was the typical gear chaser and tone tinkerer...now I don't bother.
> 
> I did recently upgrade my guitar with stuff but it was all practical stuff I needed to make the guitar a 1 stop shop for all my live and studio needs without having to use multiple guitars. These days I like shit simple because it's the most logical way to get things done.



Sometimes I think it’s more about notes and energy than tones. Or songs even! I mean sure there’s a sweet spot in every piece of gear, and that’s partly why I like tube amps because sometimes they make tones by accident almost, but then other times you can spend too much time chasing the “ghost in the machine.”

I wonder does Wintersun play acoustic sets? Their music is so cool, but it’s very heavily processed. I wonder how it would sound without all the processing....


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Wuuthrad said:


> Sometimes I think it’s more about notes and energy than tones. Or songs even! I mean sure there’s a sweet spot in every piece of gear, and that’s partly why I like tube amps because sometimes they make tones by accident almost, but then other times you can spend too much time chasing the “ghost in the machine.”
> 
> I wonder does Wintersun play acoustic sets? Their music is so cool, but it’s very heavily processed. I wonder how it would sound without all the processing....



Lots of gear is just the mojo that inspires you to do stuff. It's not that the gear itself is great, but it just does something that inspires creativity...but some don't get that and they start thinking that the gear is actually magic.

Even then, the songs and and energy play a part. The mix of all of those things are what makes it great. You could have the best tones in the world but if the song fucking sucks then it doesn't matter..meanwhile you have songs like Crazy Train that are iconic even though the guitar tone sounds like it was done with a 1 watt transistor radio.


----------



## gnoll

Meh, different gear sounds different and does different things. Some people have an interest in that, is that so weird? It doesn't have to be magical for people to be into it and wanna talk about it. If you don't care about gear you don't have to talk about it.


----------



## lewis

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's pretty much one of the major benefits to buying new. Why should someone get stuck with a piece of shit?
> 
> I've bought two or three guitars or amps and kept the best, that's a benefit.
> 
> Especially with retailers that don't both even opening the box before sending it out.


thats why Thomann is dangerous.
You pay one shipping fee and can ship like multiple guitars under a weight threshold. Can order like 5 with the idea of trying them all, and keeping the best one and returning the other 4 for refunds and shipping was free

EDIT: Can also do this with amps, making Kemper Profiles of them, and returning the lot = free profiles


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Pickups I feel impact a sound more than the tubes. You can severely change a sound by changing pickups. Tubes effect the character of a sound but don't make as big as a difference. A pickup swap can be the make or break for a guitar. A tube swap is only gonna do but so much and if you don't like the tone of the amp itself a tube change isn't gonna be the deciding factor to keep it unless we're talking something like noise



I spent a few hours yesterday doing some tube rolling on my Triaxis and it's pretty amazing how much better it sounds now. And that will apply to all guitars I'll plug into it. But to each their own, of course.



lewis said:


> Can also do this with amps, making Kemper Profiles of them, and returning the lot = free profiles



That's downright idiotic. If you can afford to buy several amps and having your money on hold until they receive the amps and give you a refund, you sure can afford some goddamnn profiles.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

lewis said:


> thats why Thomann is dangerous.
> You pay one shipping fee and can ship like multiple guitars under a weight threshold. Can order like 5 with the idea of trying them all, and keeping the best one and returning the other 4 for refunds and shipping was free
> 
> EDIT: Can also do this with amps, making Kemper Profiles of them, and returning the lot = free profiles



Retailers in the US are similar, pretty much everything ships free, but you often have to pay return shipping, and high end stuff can have a restocking fee, at least if you're not returning because it's damaged/defective.


----------



## works0fheart

For years I'd do the thing that everyone does where whenever I'd hear a guitar tone that I'd realllllly like I'd look it up. Turns out, a big majority of the time it was a 5150 or some iteration of that line. Several years ago I got a 6505+ and it sounded fantastic. I ended up selling it to a co-worker and getting an AXE-FX instead because it didn't take up as much room. I still love my AXE-FX, but even with it, a majority of the time I'm still using some iteration of a 5150 on the sims on it and honestly, I'd just like to have that big bastard sitting on top of my cab again.

Even with as good of cleans as I can get out of it, nothing will top an old, beat to shit JC-120 I played at a guitar center once.

Point is, it's generally a cheap amp (The 5150), and I see a lot of boutique stuff thrown around here... VHT-this, Bogner, Fryette, Whatever the flavor of the moment is (the Neural I think?) but yet I'd still take a 6505+ over any of them any day of the week. The ears like what they like, and I love the snarl and tightness that those basic Peavey amps have. 

Tone doesn't have to be expensive and I think that's easy to forget sometimes.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> Meh, different gear sounds different and does different things. Some people have an interest in that, is that so weird? It doesn't have to be magical for people to be into it and wanna talk about it. If you don't care about gear you don't have to talk about it.



I don't unless relevant. I'm not one for joining gear circle jerks..but I will chime in on things I've actually experienced


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I don't unless relevant. I'm not one for joining gear circle jerks..but I will chime in on things I've actually experienced



Relevant is subjective, as is what's a circle jerk I guess. I'm pretty glad I spent so much time reading and talking about gear, because now it's much easier for me to know what I want/need and how to get certain results. If all I'd ever heard was "just get a 5150" then I wouldn't be in that position.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> Relevant is subjective, as is what's a circle jerk I guess. I'm pretty glad I spent so much time reading and talking about gear, because now it's much easier for me to know what I want/need and how to get certain results. If all I'd ever heard was "just get a 5150" then I wouldn't be in that position.



I get more info from understanding the science and real world application of things more than gear nerd forums as their opinions change based on what's popular and lots of them will suggest shit they haven't even actually used.


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I get more info from understanding the science and real world application of things more than gear nerd forums as their opinions change based on what's popular and lots of them will suggest shit they haven't even actually used.



Ok but not all people or posts are like that. And while I don't like trends in gear I also don't like defaulting to tried and tested things just because. I like discussing, learning about and understanding things and I think this place is pretty nice for that.


----------



## nickgray

Shask said:


> Sadly, it seems like most younger people cant do anything unless someone holds their hand and does it for them. People are looking for other people to tell them what to do.
> 
> (As a teacher of younger people in my day job, I had a break-down the other day complaining about how younger people suck with technology, despite everyone thinking they are good with it....)



Haha, there might be some truth to that. What's really funny is that nowadays there's a wealth of information and it's pretty damn easy to find too. I got into this hobby in early 2000s and finding good info was way harder, and often it didn't even exist at all.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

nickgray said:


> Haha, there might be some truth to that. What's really funny is that nowadays there's a wealth of information and it's pretty damn easy to find too. I got into this hobby in early 2000s and finding good info was way harder, and often it didn't even exist at all.



There's certainly a lot of "information" out there, I wouldn't necessarily call it "good" though.


----------



## diagrammatiks

most information is super bad. the only right way to do it is to take charge of guitar renters 14 day no questions asked rental policy and try everything.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Shask said:


> Sadly, it seems like most younger people cant do anything unless someone holds their hand and does it for them. People are looking for other people to tell them what to do.
> 
> (As a teacher of younger people in my day job, I had a break-down the other day complaining about how younger people suck with technology, despite everyone thinking they are good with it....)



Young people are TERRIBLE with technology compared to the 30-40yr old generation.

We grew up when all this stuff was developing. Dial-up Internet. Finding your way around with AOL. If you were into gaming, you'd be building your own computer with parts from all over the place, probably overclocking it, installing all sorts of drivers, patches, cracks, keygens etc. You had to learn what you were doing, and stuff went wrong ALL the time. Computers were unstable as hell. There was no App Store. Wanted to listen to music on your computer? You'd be on all sorts of forums, newsgroups, using winzip to transfer large files split across multiple floppy disks.

Youngsters now grew up with wifi everywhere, touchscreen devices which are idiot-proof. A 3 year old can whiz around an iPad effortlessly. Everything is super stable and works almost perfectly all of the time. There was no need for them to ever think about how something works, or to learn to troubleshoot or modify it.


----------



## diagrammatiks

my wife and my grandmother basically have the same technical proficiency


----------



## MaxOfMetal

diagrammatiks said:


> my wife and my grandmother basically have the same technical proficiency



So are you robbing the grave?


----------



## Shask

Flappydoodle said:


> Young people are TERRIBLE with technology compared to the 30-40yr old generation.
> 
> We grew up when all this stuff was developing. Dial-up Internet. Finding your way around with AOL. If you were into gaming, you'd be building your own computer with parts from all over the place, probably overclocking it, installing all sorts of drivers, patches, cracks, keygens etc. You had to learn what you were doing, and stuff went wrong ALL the time. Computers were unstable as hell. There was no App Store. Wanted to listen to music on your computer? You'd be on all sorts of forums, newsgroups, using winzip to transfer large files split across multiple floppy disks.
> 
> Youngsters now grew up with wifi everywhere, touchscreen devices which are idiot-proof. A 3 year old can whiz around an iPad effortlessly. Everything is super stable and works almost perfectly all of the time. There was no need for them to ever think about how something works, or to learn to troubleshoot or modify it.


It amazes me when a younger person can't do something like rename a file, and then blame it on the fact their school didn't teach it to them. Nope, that is not the issue. I can do this just fine, and my school didn't even have computers....

It is just crazy to me that we have more technology than ever before, but yet a general feeling of helplessness than before.


----------



## laxu

Shask said:


> It amazes me when a younger person can't do something like rename a file, and then blame it on the fact their school didn't teach it to them. Nope, that is not the issue. I can do this just fine, and my school didn't even have computers....
> 
> It is just crazy to me that we have more technology than ever before, but yet a general feeling of helplessness than before.



Being able to search stuff well should be mandatory in schools nowadays. I am not a living databank of knowledge, I just know how to research solutions to problems. Yet some people, regardless of age never seem to get past the "thing does not work, what to do?" stage of troubleshooting.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> Ok but not all people or posts are like that. And while I don't like trends in gear I also don't like defaulting to tried and tested things just because. I like discussing, learning about and understanding things and I think this place is pretty nice for that.



That's nice.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't think age is really a factor. some folks just aren't technology people. Just like some folks aren't mechanically inclined.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

laxu said:


> Being able to search stuff well should be mandatory in schools nowadays. I am not a living databank of knowledge, I just know how to research solutions to problems. Yet some people, regardless of age never seem to get past the "thing does not work, what to do?" stage of troubleshooting.


...don't they teach how to research in school? They did when I was in school..but apparently some people must have skipped that day


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> Just another observation:
> 
> People go nuts around here with tube amps and preamps, yet no one gives a damn about the actual tubes.  Last reply on the preamp tube thread was on June.
> 
> It's like: "we want tubes. We don't give a damn which ones, as long as they glow".



Buying things is easier than caring


----------



## MASS DEFECT

StevenC said:


> Except this is the wrong answer, because the correct answer is a Diezel Herbert pedal.



Wrong. John Gallagher from Dying Fetus and Noel Gallagher from Oasis tried it on tour and they say it sux.


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> Relevant is subjective, as is what's a circle jerk I guess. I'm pretty glad I spent so much time reading and talking about gear, because now it's much easier for me to know what I want/need and how to get certain results. If all I'd ever heard was "just get a 5150" then I wouldn't be in that position.


.

But you'd have a 5150 and would only have to keep looking to supplement, not replace.

Theres a reason its the defacto "what amp for metal?" answer. Affordable, reliable, and it does the job well.

A lot of folks would probably be better off starting with a 5150 and a decent cab, ts808 optional, and *from there* figure out what tonal tweaks they want. As has been said, people go through all these $2k heads (remember brunetti hype?) then discover a 5150 variant and X cab was the sound they were chasing. If its not that, its probably a recto .


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> .
> 
> But you'd have a 5150 and would only have to keep looking to supplement, not replace.
> 
> Theres a reason its the defacto "what amp for metal?" answer. Affordable, reliable, and it does the job well.
> 
> A lot of folks would probably be better off starting with a 5150 and a decent cab, ts808 optional, and *from there* figure out what tonal tweaks they want. As has been said, people go through all these $2k heads (remember brunetti hype?) then discover a 5150 variant and X cab was the sound they were chasing. If its not that, its probably a recto .



BuT i NeEdS a FoRuM tO tEll Me WhAt To BuY!!!!1111


----------



## Shask

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think age is really a factor. some folks just aren't technology people. Just like some folks aren't mechanically inclined.


We are not talking Excel automation programming or something here. Basic skills, like if you save a file, you can actually find the folder of that file, etc..... If people cant do that, I don't know how they are going to survive as an adult with a job.


----------



## gnoll

budda said:


> .
> 
> But you'd have a 5150



But I hate 5150s.


----------



## StevenC

Flappydoodle said:


> Young people are TERRIBLE with technology compared to the 30-40yr old generation.
> 
> We grew up when all this stuff was developing. Dial-up Internet. Finding your way around with AOL. If you were into gaming, you'd be building your own computer with parts from all over the place, probably overclocking it, installing all sorts of drivers, patches, cracks, keygens etc. You had to learn what you were doing, and stuff went wrong ALL the time. Computers were unstable as hell. There was no App Store. Wanted to listen to music on your computer? You'd be on all sorts of forums, newsgroups, using winzip to transfer large files split across multiple floppy disks.
> 
> Youngsters now grew up with wifi everywhere, touchscreen devices which are idiot-proof. A 3 year old can whiz around an iPad effortlessly. Everything is super stable and works almost perfectly all of the time. There was no need for them to ever think about how something works, or to learn to troubleshoot or modify it.


This is a dumb take. I know people so old they've been programming since punch cards and had to build their own calculators. Those people have kept up to date with computing but still have massive blind spots.

Have you spoken to any teens and 20s? Because average people in their teens and 20s are way more computer literate than 10 or 20 years ago. Just because there's an expectation that things work doesn't mean nobody knows how it works. I've had a PC since I was like 4 or 5, but my younger brother probably didn't have one until he was 10 or 12 yet he definitely knows way more about making stuff work than I do. And I don't actually know anyone in real life in their 30s or 40s that can work a computer at any sensible level outside of university lecturers and actual IT professionals.

You're legit old man yells at clouds because you had dial up and kids nowadays have wifi?


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> But I hate 5150s.



You can hate it, but a lot of people would still say you have good tone .

Did you learn that by owning one?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> But I hate 5150s.


Then you would try some amps until you found the right one. Why's that so hard?


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ...don't they teach how to research in school? They did when I was in school..but apparently some people must have skipped that day





Shask said:


> We are not talking Excel automation programming or something here. Basic skills, like if you save a file, you can actually find the folder of that file, etc..... If people cant do that, I don't know how they are going to survive as an adult with a job.



If a basic math problem we can all do instinctually in our heads takes a Common Core Math kid 90 steps of plotting out dashes and x's on a piece of paper, then Google search would fill a thousand pages and take at least 2 years to complete. : )


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> If a basic math problem we can all do instinctually in our heads takes a Common Core Math kid 90 steps of plotting out dashes and x's on a piece of paper, then Google search would fill a thousand pages and take at least 2 years to complete. : )


People are stupid


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> People are stupid


 I second that motion! Do I hear a third?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

c7spheres said:


> I second that motion! Do I hear a third?


No...because they can't count that high


----------



## gnoll

budda said:


> a lot of people would still say you have good tone .



A lot of people also listen to Justin Bieber.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Then you would try some amps until you found the right one. Why's that so hard?



It's a fucking pain buying and selling a bunch of amps blindly. It gets much easier if you can do some research and ask people for advice.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> A lot of people also listen to Justin Bieber.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a fucking pain buying and selling a bunch of amps blindly. It gets much easier if you can do some research and ask people for advice.



You would STILL have to try it to see if you like it because other people's explanations can only do but so much if they aren't completely wrong or misleading

Simple. Figure out what features you want, check out sound clips and videos, go play some amps to figure out exactly what you wanna hear..buy an amp.

Problem solved.


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You would STILL have to try it to see if you like it because other people's explanations can only do but so much if they aren't completely wrong or misleading
> 
> Simple. Figure out what features you want, check out sound clips and videos, go play some amps to figure out exactly what you wanna hear..buy an amp.
> 
> Problem solved.



Ok whatever, although I don't really get why you're here if you're so against discussing gear.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> Ok whatever, although I don't really get why you're here if you're so against discussing gear.


Because I love you


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> A lot of people also listen to Justin Bieber.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a fucking pain buying and selling a bunch of amps blindly. It gets much easier if you can do some research and ask people for advice.



Did you own a 5150 to learn you dislike 5150s?

Also the Bieber comparison is ok, because whether or not you like the music, the tonal qualities of it are top tier.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

budda said:


> Did you own a 5150 to learn you dislike 5150s?


----------



## gnoll

budda said:


> Did you own a 5150 to learn you dislike 5150s?
> 
> Also the Bieber comparison is ok, because whether or not you like the music, the tonal qualities of it are top tier.



It wasn't owning it alone that made me hate it. It's a satisfying amp to play and just chug away on, and if I hadn't known any better I probably would have kept playing it and then run into problems later when recording. But learning about gear, signal chains, recording, what part the amp plays in the final tone, as well as what tones on albums have been recorded with which amps, that made me realize that I don't like 5150s.


----------



## Mathemagician

rokket2005 said:


> I don't gas for amps anymore either, rather I want more amps in the axe. Really just an ultralead since my vht is the only amp I have that isn't in it and my approximation with a micro amp into the jumpered hiwatt probably isn't as close as an official model would be.
> 
> Then I see idiots on the fractal forum asking for more Marshalls as if having 20% of the current amps being Marshalls wasn't enough.



Digital has definitely quelled the amp-lust. 

And that’s b/c the 1983 Marshall ABC 600 has slightly more high end at noon than the Marshall ABC 600b, and rolling the knob a millimeter up is impossible so they need to add both! 



budda said:


> Define "getting the most out of them".
> 
> This implies people get the most out of other gear, and I bet 99% of members here just leave their volume and tone knobs dimed



I still boost mids. Always have. Are we not boosting mids anymore? I thought we went through a phase and all agreed mids were where it’s at? Is it not longer “at” the mids? I don’t Djent, so I am fully expecting to just be called old for this 



Adieu said:


> ^
> 
> Prestige or maybe cheap ESP > TS clone > used 6505+.
> 
> Done and gtfo.



No one wants to miss an opportunity to brag about their 8th boost pedal. Gotta justify that $250. 



works0fheart said:


> For years I'd do the thing that everyone does where whenever I'd hear a guitar tone that I'd realllllly like I'd look it up. Turns out, a big majority of the time it was a 5150 or some iteration of that line. Several years ago I got a 6505+ and it sounded fantastic. I ended up selling it to a co-worker and getting an AXE-FX instead because it didn't take up as much room. I still love my AXE-FX, but even with it, a majority of the time I'm still using some iteration of a 5150 on the sims on it and honestly, I'd just like to have that big bastard sitting on top of my cab again.
> 
> Even with as good of cleans as I can get out of it, nothing will top an old, beat to shit JC-120 I played at a guitar center once.
> 
> Point is, it's generally a cheap amp (The 5150), and I see a lot of boutique stuff thrown around here... VHT-this, Bogner, Fryette, Whatever the flavor of the moment is (the Neural I think?) but yet I'd still take a 6505+ over any of them any day of the week. The ears like what they like, and I love the snarl and tightness that those basic Peavey amps have.
> 
> Tone doesn't have to be expensive and I think that's easy to forget sometimes.



Seriously debating just getting a 5153 50 watt and being done with it. I can get an attenuator for evening practice I suppose. It’s just what I like the most, lol.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> It wasn't owning it alone that made me hate it. It's a satisfying amp to play and just chug away on, and if I hadn't known any better I probably would have kept playing it and then run into problems later when recording. But learning about gear, signal chains, recording, what part the amp plays in the final tone, as well as what tones on albums have been recorded with which amps, that made me realize that I don't like 5150s.



I'm not a 5150 purist...I've never been fond of them...but I don't get this.

So you DID like playing on it..but learning about gear made you not like it?

Recording wise, the 6505 is a staple of studios because of their track record, literally. Whether blended or the main amp they shine. I don't even like those amps but have to admit they can sound great in a mix.

What could you have learned about gear and recording that made you "hate" the amps? They take boosts great, are great live or in the studio, practically never fail in the tube sections, and are pretty plug in and play.

They even make great power amps for pedals and other preamps.

What exactly do you "hate" about them?


----------



## gnoll

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm not a 5150 purist...I've never been fond of them...but I don't get this.
> 
> So you DID like playing on it..but learning about gear made you not like it?
> 
> Recording wise, the 6505 is a staple of studios because of their track record, literally. Whether blended or the main amp they shine. I don't even like those amps but have to admit they can sound great in a mix.
> 
> What could you have learned about gear and recording that made you "hate" the amps? They take boosts great, are great live or in the studio, practically never fail in the tube sections, and are pretty plug in and play.
> 
> They even make great power amps for pedals and other preamps.
> 
> What exactly do you "hate" about them?



It's basically the sound of modern metal. I hate modern metal. I grew up on 80s and early 90s stuff that's basically all Marshall or possibly Mesa Mark or ADA mp-1, and that's shaped what I like. Marshalls are sharp and angry and sit much higher in the mix. 5150s have lower mids that fill out the mix in a way I don't like. I associate the sound with a bunch of music I don't like at all.


----------



## Shask

c7spheres said:


> If a basic math problem we can all do instinctually in our heads takes a Common Core Math kid 90 steps of plotting out dashes and x's on a piece of paper, then Google search would fill a thousand pages and take at least 2 years to complete. : )


I have a Master's in Mathematics, so I can tell you all about why they teach it the way they do, lol. Everyone hates on it, but there are good reasons why.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

gnoll said:


> It's basically the sound of modern metal. I hate modern metal. I grew up on 80s and early 90s stuff that's basically all Marshall or possibly Mesa Mark or ADA mp-1, and that's shaped what I like. Marshalls are sharp and angry and sit much higher in the mix. 5150s have lower mids that fill out the mix in a way I don't like. I associate the sound with a bunch of music I don't like at all.


Well....I DO loves me a Marshall...


----------



## Shask

gnoll said:


> It's basically the sound of modern metal. I hate modern metal. I grew up on 80s and early 90s stuff that's basically all Marshall or possibly Mesa Mark or ADA mp-1, and that's shaped what I like. Marshalls are sharp and angry and sit much higher in the mix. 5150s have lower mids that fill out the mix in a way I don't like. I associate the sound with a bunch of music I don't like at all.


Maybe you would prefer the 5150 II / 6505+ over the original because it is more upper mid based vs. lower mid based like the original 5150.


----------



## gnoll

Shask said:


> Maybe you would prefer the 5150 II / 6505+ over the original because it is more upper mid based vs. lower mid based like the original 5150.



I just don't think it's different enough though...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Shask said:


> I have a Master's in Mathematics, so I can tell you all about why they teach it the way they do, lol. Everyone hates on it, but there are good reasons why.


I wish I could laugh react this rather than like it.


----------



## Shask

gnoll said:


> I just don't think it's different enough though...


Fair enough. They are still more fizzy and gritty overall than a Marshall. Not as clear.

I have had many 5150's and JCAs, and have a 2203 based amp I built with all the mods for more gain and bass. There are still some specific voicing differences even though they are built on the same foundation.


----------



## c7spheres

Shask said:


> I have a Master's in Mathematics, so I can tell you all about why they teach it the way they do, lol. Everyone hates on it, but there are good reasons why.



I get it. It's about teaching kids to problems solve, smooth out test scores etc like they say on the pro common core websites, but some things are wrong. It's about turning people into bio-droids! Seriously, any light you can shed is appreciated because from where I stand it seems really ridiculous.


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I wish I could laugh react this rather than like it.


 Why is that?


----------



## Shask

c7spheres said:


> I get it. It's about teaching kids to problems solve, smooth out test scores etc like they say on the pro common core websites, but some things are wrong. It's about turning people into bio-droids! Seriously, any light you can shed is appreciated because from where I stand it seems really ridiculous.


Basically, the ideas are to understand the concepts behind why things are, instead of just memorizing processes that people don't understand. Like for example, people can multiply 2-3 digit numbers, and have memorized the process, but don't really understand why it works, and how place value and such are taken into account by "doing it for them" behind the scenes of the memorized procedure.

If you look at a lot of the Common Core procedures for Elementary school, all they are doing is High School Algebra. They are just doing it without the variables. The goal is that if they understand the structure of numbers before they introduce variables, that the transition in High School will be more consistent. As it is, 9th grade is the net the traps everyone. Everyone gets stuck in 9th grade Algebra which leads to most of the dropouts in schools. They want the grades to all transition more gradually instead of being easy, and then all of a sudden super difficult.

So, overall, memorization is bad, understanding concepts is more important, and continuity in methods from K-12 is key.

I am not saying I agree with all the stupid BS they do, but the idea is Mathematically sound. Learn the concepts behind the why, not just memorizing to get the answer.


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> It's basically the sound of modern metal. I hate modern metal. I grew up on 80s and early 90s stuff that's basically all Marshall or possibly Mesa Mark or ADA mp-1, and that's shaped what I like. Marshalls are sharp and angry and sit much higher in the mix. 5150s have lower mids that fill out the mix in a way I don't like. I associate the sound with a bunch of music I don't like at all.



Sounds like you'd like the 6534+.


----------



## gnoll

budda said:


> Sounds like you'd like the 6534+.



It's not the EL34s I'm after particularly.


----------



## efiltsohg

just play a 2203 then, nobody is making you play a 5150 

(fwiw I agree)


----------



## nickgray

Shask said:


> Learn the concepts behind the why, not just memorizing to get the answer.



It's also the only way to learn uni-level maths if you ever get to that point. You can kinda bullshit high school just because the curriculum seems to be built this way - robotic, straightforward tests that require zero creativity to solve, or at least that's how I remember it being, it was a while ago. But you can't at all take this approach with proof-based mathematics, you either start understanding definitions and proofs from the ground up and work your way up, or you're screwed. Going through this is super helpful later on if you need to learn something technical. Music theory comes to mind, it's surprisingly mathematical in a lot of ways.


----------



## Vyn

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, a brand new PPC412 is like $1200. A new Uberkab is like $1100. Used, cut it in half, especially if folks are stuck and can't ship.
> 
> I've tried all kinds of cabs made of lighter stuff and they wind up being fairly flimsy or even rattle when used. You can go with something smaller, but then it doesn't sound like a 4x12. Neo speakers help a lot though (as much as 30lbs depending), and the options are decent compared to a decade or two ago.
> 
> I think a lot of cab pricing is based on the idea that they can last just about forever with no maintenance so long as you don't do something really stupid. It's like buying furniture.



I think you're on to something re-cab pricing, they are basically indestructible.



works0fheart said:


> I still love my AXE-FX, but even with it, a majority of the time I'm still using some iteration of a 5150 on the sims on it and honestly, I'd just like to have that big bastard sitting on top of my cab again.



There really is nothing that matches the satisfaction of looking at a half-stack or full stack sitting in your practice room. Until digital managed to do that I'm staying away


----------



## budda

Vyn said:


> I think you're on to something re-cab pricing, they are basically indestructible.
> 
> 
> 
> There really is nothing that matches the satisfaction of looking at a half-stack or full stack sitting in your practice room. Until digital managed to do that I'm staying away



I dunno, 288 models is working for me


----------



## budda

gnoll said:


> It's not the EL34s I'm after particularly.



You like marshalls, and the 5150 is borne of a player who started with tweaked marshalls. The 6534+ is a bit closer to marshall goodness. As a previous 2203 owner, I understand the juiced marshall appeal .


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

gnoll said:


> It's not the EL34s I'm after particularly.



He's not wrong about trying a + variant of the amp. It's got more midrange to it. Less 5150-esque low mids to the sound.

EDIT: Apparently I didnt read far enough.  There's enough of a difference for me to much prefer the 5150II/6505+.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Shask said:


> Maybe you would prefer the 5150 II / 6505+ over the original because it is more upper mid based vs. lower mid based like the original 5150.


Okay...I did chuckle at this.

"Try a 6505"

"I don't like those. I want something different"

"........like a 6505...+?"

Gnoll:


----------



## c7spheres

Shask said:


> Basically, the ideas are to understand the concepts behind why things are, instead of just memorizing processes that people don't understand. Like for example, people can multiply 2-3 digit numbers, and have memorized the process, but don't really understand why it works, and how place value and such are taken into account by "doing it for them" behind the scenes of the memorized procedure.
> 
> If you look at a lot of the Common Core procedures for Elementary school, all they are doing is High School Algebra. They are just doing it without the variables. The goal is that if they understand the structure of numbers before they introduce variables, that the transition in High School will be more consistent. As it is, 9th grade is the net the traps everyone. Everyone gets stuck in 9th grade Algebra which leads to most of the dropouts in schools. They want the grades to all transition more gradually instead of being easy, and then all of a sudden super difficult.
> 
> So, overall, memorization is bad, understanding concepts is more important, and continuity in methods from K-12 is key.
> 
> I am not saying I agree with all the stupid BS they do, but the idea is Mathematically sound. Learn the concepts behind the why, not just memorizing to get the answer.



- Oh yeah?, well...I still don't like it! So there!  
- We don't need no education. 
- Hey! Teacher! Leave them kids alone! 

Just kidding! Thanks for the info.


----------



## rokket2005

budda said:


> I dunno, 288 models is working for me


Mine only has 282. Did you get some secret DLC or something?


----------



## budda

rokket2005 said:


> Mine only has 282. Did you get some secret DLC or something?



You at FW 14.01?


----------



## Shask

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Okay...I did chuckle at this.
> 
> "Try a 6505"
> 
> "I don't like those. I want something different"
> 
> "........like a 6505...+?"
> 
> Gnoll:


The + DOES have more of those Marshall upper mids, lol.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Shask said:


> The + DOES have more of those Marshall upper mids, lol.


True. But I still thought it was funny


----------



## budda

rokket2005 said:


> Mine only has 282. Did you get some secret DLC or something?



Looked now that I'm at it, 282 indeed.

278 more than I need .


----------



## MASS DEFECT

gnoll said:


> I just don't think it's different enough though...



If the 6505+/5150II won't do something close to a gained out Marshall or a thrashing Mark, the blue channel on a 50w regular 6l6 EVh 5150III would get you there. Pretty clean and dry bass. No low mid honk. Clean and prominent mids. Aggressive high mids and treble. You can dial in any 80s-90s thrash, death metal tones from it without an overdrive. Done deal.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SS.ORG be like


----------



## works0fheart

Mathemagician said:


> Seriously debating just getting a 5153 50 watt and being done with it. I can get an attenuator for evening practice I suppose. It’s just what I like the most, lol.



I'd say they're worth it. I've played quite a few iterations of these amps when I worked at a music store and the combo amps sound pretty good honestly. Hell, one of my buddies records with a 6505+ 2x12 and I heard no difference from his to mine.



gnoll said:


> It's basically the sound of modern metal. I hate modern metal. I grew up on 80s and early 90s stuff that's basically all Marshall or possibly Mesa Mark or ADA mp-1, and that's shaped what I like. Marshalls are sharp and angry and sit much higher in the mix. 5150s have lower mids that fill out the mix in a way I don't like. I associate the sound with a bunch of music I don't like at all.



I honestly feel like an asshole for coming in here and derailing this thread talking about 5150s and now everyone is giving you a hard time lol. Sorry man. 

Anyways, to the subject, while I will say that the 5150 did basically start from modded Marshall's, I've never found a Marshall I've liked so I will agree that they do sound very different to me as well. 

I've played a bunch of them as well and the tone never feels good enough to me right away without throwing something in front of it to compensate. They always sound very dry, muddy, rubbery, thin, or any combination of these. 

To be honest though, I think that players honestly balance the nuances of how they play around the tone they get from their amp so since I'm used to playing a certain type of amp I just may not be able to adjust my playing to make it sound good. 

I have the same sort of issues with Mesa Boogies as well but on the other end of the spectrum. They sound too bassy for me, even with the bass dialed back, and I can never get any real bite or attack out of them. 

I think maybe that last point is what draws me to the 5150s personally. Lots of amps have great distortion and tone shaping options but the 5150s often have a very nice percussive quality (for lack of a better term) that really draws me to them and shifting between notes feels more reactive on them to me.

Tomato, tomahto. 

Many of my favorite albums have been recorded on amps that just baffle me. Symbolic by Death comes to mind. Chuck knew how to make that Valvestate work for him and I think the tone still sounds great to this day, but everytime I've played that amp I couldn't get a feel for it. 

I guess the point I really should have aimed for is the typical, tried and true "tOnE CoMeS FeRm YeR FiNgiEs" response, because as cliche as it is, that's about 75% true.


----------



## Rxcoma

odibrom said:


> @Rxcoma thank you for your reply, I've been reading mixed reviews on those units, the EQ, the preamp and the compressor (I think they were 3...?)
> 
> @Bogner tuning is more of a setting, not necessarily GEAR, but, we can deal with that...



Surely.. You're quite welcome.. And you ARE correct.. The 3 units made up the Tube or T1900 series.. The dual channel para, the dual Mic pre, and dual compressor. Thr compressor is definitely "decent" the mic pres ive only heard having been used. But never used. The tonality was nothing special . good for people who actually want lukewarm and colorless.. But the parametric EQs.. Oh my God man. On 8 string guitar ESPECIALLY. wow. One thing.. If any. That behringer has ALWAYS hit the nail on the head with. Is Parametrics. Matter of fact. Id challenge any brand slave to a blind fold test between whatever "high end" para they can find.. And the Behringer Peq305s..Peq2200s or German borne Studio Qs all of which are solid state modules.. With a blind fold on..im willing to bet they would universally agree the Berhinger units affects the tone more drastically..and in more areas/bandwidths-frequencies than whatever $2000 unit they brought. I keep a pair of 305s around. That I just never sell..as a seller.. For whatever rig I decide to use at home this month..


----------



## Flappydoodle

StevenC said:


> This is a dumb take. I know people so old they've been programming since punch cards and had to build their own calculators. Those people have kept up to date with computing but still have massive blind spots.
> 
> Have you spoken to any teens and 20s? Because average people in their teens and 20s are way more computer literate than 10 or 20 years ago. Just because there's an expectation that things work doesn't mean nobody knows how it works. I've had a PC since I was like 4 or 5, but my younger brother probably didn't have one until he was 10 or 12 yet he definitely knows way more about making stuff work than I do. And I don't actually know anyone in real life in their 30s or 40s that can work a computer at any sensible level outside of university lecturers and actual IT professionals.
> 
> You're legit old man yells at clouds because you had dial up and kids nowadays have wifi?



it’s a generalisation but not a dumb take. 

A friend of mine has a company doing online tuition for high school kids. He has a sample size of several thousand users. It’s amazing how many can not turn their webcam on, can’t upload a file, can’t find a file which saved to a folder on a computer. Basically, If it’s not done through an app on a mobile device, they are hopeless. 

Of course there are younger people who are super capable. Your brother might be one. But the post I was addressing was about the myth that younger people are amazing with technology because they spend all their time on it. 

And lol, 30-40yr age group is not ‘Old man’ status. And if you don’t know any, maybe you need to know more people.


----------



## c7spheres

Rxcoma said:


> Surely.. You're quite welcome.. And you ARE correct.. The 3 units made up the Tube or T1900 series.. The dual channel para, the dual Mic pre, and dual compressor. Thr compressor is definitely "decent" the mic pres ive only heard having been used. But never used. The tonality was nothing special . good for people who actually want lukewarm and colorless.. But the parametric EQs.. Oh my God man. On 8 string guitar ESPECIALLY. wow. One thing.. If any. That behringer has ALWAYS hit the nail on the head with. Is Parametrics. Matter of fact. Id challenge any brand slave to a blind fold test between whatever "high end" para they can find.. And the Behringer Peq305s..Peq2200s or German borne Studio Qs all of which are solid state modules.. With a blind fold on..im willing to bet they would universally agree the Berhinger units affects the tone more drastically..and in more areas/bandwidths-frequencies than whatever $2000 unit they brought. I keep a pair of 305s around. That I just never sell..as a seller.. For whatever rig I decide to use at home this month..




Just thought you'd want to know about what I use which is the Ashly PQX-572. There's also a mono version the pqx-571. 7 band with 5 fully parametric bands and a low and high shelf band too. They sound great and are very neutral/clinical. That's why I like them because they just do the job without adding a bunch of color.


----------



## Flappydoodle

works0fheart said:


> I'd say they're worth it. I've played quite a few iterations of these amps when I worked at a music store and the combo amps sound pretty good honestly. Hell, one of my buddies records with a 6505+ 2x12 and I heard no difference from his to mine.
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly feel like an asshole for coming in here and derailing this thread talking about 5150s and now everyone is giving you a hard time lol. Sorry man.
> 
> Anyways, to the subject, while I will say that the 5150 did basically start from modded Marshall's, I've never found a Marshall I've liked so I will agree that they do sound very different to me as well.
> 
> I've played a bunch of them as well and the tone never feels good enough to me right away without throwing something in front of it to compensate. They always sound very dry, muddy, rubbery, thin, or any combination of these.
> 
> To be honest though, I think that players honestly balance the nuances of how they play around the tone they get from their amp so since I'm used to playing a certain type of amp I just may not be able to adjust my playing to make it sound good.
> 
> I have the same sort of issues with Mesa Boogies as well but on the other end of the spectrum. They sound too bassy for me, even with the bass dialed back, and I can never get any real bite or attack out of them.
> 
> I think maybe that last point is what draws me to the 5150s personally. Lots of amps have great distortion and tone shaping options but the 5150s often have a very nice percussive quality (for lack of a better term) that really draws me to them and shifting between notes feels more reactive on them to me.
> 
> Tomato, tomahto.
> 
> Many of my favorite albums have been recorded on amps that just baffle me. Symbolic by Death comes to mind. Chuck knew how to make that Valvestate work for him and I think the tone still sounds great to this day, but everytime I've played that amp I couldn't get a feel for it.
> 
> I guess the point I really should have aimed for is the typical, tried and true "tOnE CoMeS FeRm YeR FiNgiEs" response, because as cliche as it is, that's about 75% true.



The tone from fingers thing is undisputedly true. You can take identical Kemper profiles and they sound different with different people playing it. Even for live rigs where you can literally hand someone else the guitar. Brian May’s guitar tech said this too. People always want to try jamming through Brian’s rig, but they still never sound like him. Bonamassa too. People have jammed through his gear and still don’t sound like him. And he’s also been through shitloads of rigs and still sounds like Joe.


----------



## SexHaver420

Any high gain Peavey in the 5150 family is garbage. This isn't even me being an asshole because the first tube amp I ever played cranked through a 4x12 was a block letter 5150 when I was like 15.

Any Mesa Rectifier/Mark series/Fryette/Soldano/Friedman/Diezel/Bogner/Framus/any decent high gain amp is way better.

They only get recommended and jerked off so hard because they're cheap. Also they're poorly built pcb garbage so have fun when they break because they will.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Pretty sure everything you listed is PCB as well, so...


----------



## SexHaver420

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Pretty sure everything you listed is PCB as well, so...



The only PCB amp I have is a 70s Ampeg V4 (my old solid state Peavey bass amp I got for $100 probably is but who cares because I can get them that cheap always) and that thing has burn marks on the board and had never been properly maintained until I got it. When I got that amp it had 4 different 7027 power tubes that weren't close to being matched at all and I play it on 10 and it's never had any issues.

The cap job and a quad of nos 7027s was kinda $$ though.

My main amps are all hand wired and pretty because deep down inside everyone knows that aesthetics=tone.


----------



## Metropolis

In reality you all listen to albums which have 5150 related amps and don't even care


----------



## odibrom

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Pretty sure everything you listed is PCB as well, so...


... but only those Peveys are "PCB Garbage". To my understanding there are 2 types of PCBs, the good ones and the garbage ones, in which fall these5150s... as I think it's his/hers opinion...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Aren't Peaveys known for reliability? Besides they're common as fuck and every tech worth anything knows how to repair them


----------



## laxu

SexHaver420 said:


> Any high gain Peavey in the 5150 family is garbage. This isn't even me being an asshole because the first tube amp I ever played cranked through a 4x12 was a block letter 5150 when I was like 15.
> 
> Any Mesa Rectifier/Mark series/Fryette/Soldano/Friedman/Diezel/Bogner/Framus/any decent high gain amp is way better.
> 
> They only get recommended and jerked off so hard because they're cheap. Also they're poorly built pcb garbage so have fun when they break because they will.



The Peavey Classic series amps are probably the most ridiculous PCB design I have ever seen yet they somehow manage to work just fine for years. Same for other cheaply built amps like most modern Fenders, Marshalls, Vox etc. I don't think the 5150/6505 are going to do any worse in that regard.

Sure, they're not at the level of the other brands you mentioned but are still perfectly adequate - and a lot cheaper.


----------



## budda

SexHaver420 said:


> Any high gain Peavey in the 5150 family is garbage. This isn't even me being an asshole because the first tube amp I ever played cranked through a 4x12 was a block letter 5150 when I was like 15.
> 
> Any Mesa Rectifier/Mark series/Fryette/Soldano/Friedman/Diezel/Bogner/Framus/any decent high gain amp is way better.
> 
> They only get recommended and jerked off so hard because they're cheap. Also they're poorly built pcb garbage so have fun when they break because they will.



I've been at a show where a soldano didnt power up so the guy borrowed a 5150 but go off


----------



## TedEH

Metropolis said:


> you all listen to albums which have 5150 related amps and don't even care


Is there some rule that says you're only allowed to like albums made with the gear you would personally use.....?


----------



## Shask

Flappydoodle said:


> it’s a generalisation but not a dumb take.
> 
> A friend of mine has a company doing online tuition for high school kids. He has a sample size of several thousand users. It’s amazing how many can not turn their webcam on, can’t upload a file, can’t find a file which saved to a folder on a computer. Basically, If it’s not done through an app on a mobile device, they are hopeless.
> 
> Of course there are younger people who are super capable. Your brother might be one. But the post I was addressing was about the myth that younger people are amazing with technology because they spend all their time on it.
> 
> And lol, 30-40yr age group is not ‘Old man’ status. And if you don’t know any, maybe you need to know more people.


Yep, exactly. Nail->Head.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Aren't Peaveys known for reliability? Besides they're common as fuck and every tech worth anything knows how to repair them



The import stuff isn't built well, but the USA made stuff is bullet proof.


----------



## Rxcoma

Being a pre amp junkie.. And or rack units. I would say.. ALLLLLL the old school peavey preamps too.. The TG Raxx..is just a little less..and bit by much .little less rainy Rockmaster. .never pass one up if you have a chance.. And same goes for the PEAVEY PGP20..that preamp is fucking AMAZING


----------



## Rxcoma

c7spheres said:


> Just thought you'd want to know about what I use which is the Ashly PQX-572. There's also a mono version the pqx-571. 7 band with 5 fully parametric bands and a low and high shelf band too. They sound great and are very neutral/clinical. That's why I like them because they just do the job without adding a bunch of color.






Indeed my good man.. They are phenomenal units.. I sell them most frequently next to the behringer units and some 1/3 rack space units. Also magical for guitars in particular that Ashly 571.. Hey. Question. Im gonna start posting shit to sell here.. Like.. Alot of shit.. What should I start with.? I have a HUGE rack units collection..mostly metal complimentary preamps.. And parametrics.. What would you guys wanna browse first. I have a huge raw speaker and self built cab inventory. A huge guitar inventory. All things focused on extended scale equipment. What you guys wanna see 1st? Preamps? Parametrics? Guitars? FX? Heads?


----------



## Necky379

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The import stuff isn't built well, but the USA made stuff is bullet proof.



I think this is accurate. I have/have had a lot of Peavey gear, the only stuff I’ve had issues with is the newer stuff. I just got a call from my tech who fixed a 6505+ I spent way to much time trying to diagnose myself. I thought I had bought an old 5150 II and that wasn’t the case. Still, amp sounds great and I won’t be getting rid of it now that he’s gotten it straitened out. According to him it was “an absolute mess inside, cold solder joints, bad socket, one bad power tube (the tube is my fault not Peavey)”. He explained that the way these amps are designed you’re just asking for trouble if QC isn’t on point, he brought up the ribbon cables, the preamp board, screen grid resistors and some component specs. If QC is sloppy the amp is a time bomb. It’s a shame hearing that because I’ve played Peavey amps since day one. Unless there’s a miracle and they bring assembly at least back to the states I’m going to avoid any new stuff based off this experience.


----------



## Rxcoma

These however ..are BY A LANDSLIDE victory. The kindest parametrics to guitars.. Probably of all time..i swear.. These are what I used and still WILL use in my touring rig. If I were to tour again. I use em RELIGIOUSLY.. HHB Tube Radius 20. Dual channel Tube para . and the Art Dual channel

Tube EQ


----------



## Rxcoma

This that ART unit up top.. Meant this to be the 2nd pic in the last post..oops


----------



## Rxcoma

works0fheart said:


> I'd say they're worth it. I've played quite a few iterations of these amps when I worked at a music store and the combo amps sound pretty good honestly. Hell, one of my buddies records with a 6505+ 2x12 and I heard no difference from his to mine.
> 
> 
> 
> I honestly feel like an asshole for coming in here and derailing this thread talking about 5150s and now everyone is giving you a hard time lol. Sorry man.
> 
> Anyways, to the subject, while I will say that the 5150 did basically start from modded Marshall's, I've never found a Marshall I've liked so I will agree that they do sound very different to me as well.
> 
> I've played a bunch of them as well and the tone never feels good enough to me right away without throwing something in front of it to compensate. They always sound very dry, muddy, rubbery, thin, or any combination of these.
> 
> To be honest though, I think that players honestly balance the nuances of how they play around the tone they get from their amp so since I'm used to playing a certain type of amp I just may not be able to adjust my playing to make it sound good.
> 
> I have the same sort of issues with Mesa Boogies as well but on the other end of the spectrum. They sound too bassy for me, even with the bass dialed back, and I can never get any real bite or attack out of them.
> 
> I think maybe that last point is what draws me to the 5150s personally. Lots of amps have great distortion and tone shaping options but the 5150s often have a very nice percussive quality (for lack of a better term) that really draws me to them and shifting between notes feels more reactive on them to me.
> 
> Tomato, tomahto.
> 
> Many of my favorite albums have been recorded on amps that just baffle me. Symbolic by Death comes to mind. Chuck knew how to make that Valvestate work for him and I think the tone still sounds great to this day, but everytime I've played that amp I couldn't get a feel for it.
> 
> I guess the point I really should have aimed for is the typical, tried and true "tOnE CoMeS FeRm YeR FiNgiEs" response, because as cliche as it is, that's about 75% true.


Hey brother. Give the Marshall MAH100 a try if you get a chance. Hi gain all tube sleeper that happens to work WONDERS on extended scale. Pay no mind to mixed signal reviews. Thats what happens when a middle aged 1 pierced ear in the ragtop down unbleached paint vette freshly divorced mid life crisis machine white guy with 2 left feet and a bag of parsnips tries to imbue a head made for metal with some good ol fashion watered down vapid .insipid white guy blues..they go "why is it so sizzly on the lead channel ..THEY TURK AHRRR JERBS!!............(....drk-UH-drrrrrr).." And a bad review is suddenly born. Trust me a Marshall MAH100 with a tube switch to tubg sol 6L6 and mullard 12ax7s. And you will prrrrrrahbably.. Start to respect Marshall a bit . usually yes. The RX ...IS... more cowbell.. But for you sir.. MAH100 with alternate tubes


----------



## Emperoff

Rxcoma said:


> View attachment 85501
> 
> This that ART unit up top.. Meant this to be the 2nd pic in the last post..oops



That Engl preamp looks ancient. What is it?


----------



## gnoll

Metropolis said:


> In reality you all listen to albums which have 5150 related amps and don't even care



Yeah go ahead and explain to us what we listen to and how we feel, I bet you know way better.


----------



## akinari

gnoll said:


> Yeah go ahead and explain to us what we listen to and how we feel, I bet you know way better.



Geez, dude. Relax. He's kind of right. 5150s have been used on just as many albums as the JCM800 at this point, or at least layered with something else.


----------



## Metropolis

gnoll said:


> Yeah go ahead and explain to us what we listen to and how we feel, I bet you know way better.



Like those amps are everywhere, just an assumption that you have heard them in a recording without knowing it's a 5150 and actually liked what was being heard at the time or something.


----------



## gnoll

akinari said:


> Geez, dude. Relax. He's kind of right. 5150s have been used on just as many albums as the JCM800 at this point, or at least layered with something else.





Metropolis said:


> Like those amps are everywhere, just an assumption that you have heard them in a recording without knowing it's a 5150 and actually liked what was being heard at the time or something.



I get annoyed when people explain how other people feel, because they don't know. And I already said a page back I don't like 5150s.


----------



## works0fheart

SexHaver420 said:


> Any high gain Peavey in the 5150 family is garbage. This isn't even me being an asshole because the first tube amp I ever played cranked through a 4x12 was a block letter 5150 when I was like 15.
> 
> Any Mesa Rectifier/Mark series/Fryette/Soldano/Friedman/Diezel/Bogner/Framus/any decent high gain amp is way better.
> 
> They only get recommended and jerked off so hard because they're cheap. Also they're poorly built pcb garbage so have fun when they break because they will.



The first 2 paragraphs I'm fine with since they're your opinion, but saying that they only get recommended because their cheap is just not true. There are a ton of bands out there more wealthy than most of us who have rotated through amps, a lot of them high end, and still come back to the 5150 line. It's already been said, but they're a tried and true line of amps in the studio and live, by a ton of bands across the board. Budget is nice, but it's not the main reason people go after them. What I will admit though is that there's something to be said when an $800 ~ $1200 piece of equipment sounds just as good if not better than a $3000+ one, and I think that's one thing people do really enjoy about them. 

To the point of the other amps you mentioned though... I've played quite a few of these and found out they weren't for me. My old co-guitarist used to be into cycling through high end amps to try them out and I'd either played his or other stuff I've come across in music stores. As such, I've played a Framus Cobra, Framus Dragon, Splawn quickrod, various Mesa MK amps, Soldano SLO100, Diezel Herbert and one other that I can't remember, a Bogner Fish (buddy was really into the Rust in Peace guitar tone), Ecstasy, Uberschall, some of the old VHT rack stuff (2/50/2, 2/90/2), and even some of the super nerdy stuff like the Lee Jackson GP1000 since I was a big CoB fan years ago. 

While some of them I've gotten some pretty good tone out of, and even enjoyed enough to maybe own, none of them have sounded as good to me as my 6505+ did, plug and play, nothing else. The Framus's were pretty nice though, and so was the Lee Jackson. Some of the old Randall's I've played as well as a few ENGLs I've really enjoyed so I will say that it's not like it's the 5150 or nothing for me, but it is still what I prefer.

Point is, there's a certain ceiling where I feel like money =/= quality, and for music equipment it can vary widely. Hell, I have a couple Japanese made guitars that were only worth 400, 700, or 1000 dollars and they play just as good as my Strandberg or better than high end Ibanez and ESP guitars. That's why I think it's always important to try stuff before you buy it and decide for yourself instead of believing what everyone on the internet is currently circle jerking.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Y'all gettin' trolled.


----------



## USMarine75

I’ve heard good things about that Peavey stuff...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

USMarine75 said:


> I’ve heard good things about that Peavey stuff...



They should have stuck to PA equipment.


----------



## c7spheres

Rxcoma said:


> View attachment 85498
> 
> 
> Indeed my good man.. They are phenomenal units.. I sell them most frequently next to the behringer units and some 1/3 rack space units. Also magical for guitars in particular that Ashly 571.. Hey. Question. Im gonna start posting shit to sell here.. Like.. Alot of shit.. What should I start with.? I have a HUGE rack units collection..mostly metal complimentary preamps.. And parametrics.. What would you guys wanna browse first. I have a huge raw speaker and self built cab inventory. A huge guitar inventory. All things focused on extended scale equipment. What you guys wanna see 1st? Preamps? Parametrics? Guitars? FX? Heads?


 Dang! You still gots the gear issues. I applaud your efforts : ) I vote to see the guitars first. You reviving your old thread then?


----------



## r33per

Can't stand the capo. I dislike what they do to tuning, the instrument sounds weird and it makes for lazy *not creative* guitarists.


----------



## StevenC

r33per said:


> Can't stand the capo. I dislike what they do to tuning, the instrument sounds weird and it makes for lazy *not creative* guitarists.


On the one hand I agree that a lot of capos are used because people won't learn new chords. But then a lot of creative musicians actually justify them. I know some trad guitarists that use those funny slide capos, taking them on and off several times mid song and not during breaks. 

It's like anything I suppose. I hate 8 string guitars because I dislike what they do to tuning, the instrument sounds weird and it makes for lazy *not creative* guitarists.


----------



## Demiurge

I don't see what's wrong with using a capo. There are some chord inversions up the neck for which there is no practical barre chord. It makes transposing easy. What's the harm?

It's a tool that makes things easier, and the idea of working smarter and not harder shouldn't be such an anathema. Do listeners really care how hard-to-play a certain chord was?


----------



## budda

Listeners dont care about anything the performer had to do, unless the listener needs to be an elitist to others.


----------



## Emperoff

works0fheart said:


> Point is, there's a certain ceiling where I feel like money =/= quality, and for music equipment it can vary widely. Hell, I have a couple Japanese made guitars that were only worth 400, 700, or 1000 dollars and they play just as good as my Strandberg or better than high end Ibanez and ESP guitars. That's why I think it's always important to try stuff before you buy it and decide for yourself instead of believing what everyone on the internet is currently circle jerking.



Jackson USA has just increased prices for like... 2k? So yeah, money =/= quality by any means. I seriously doubt they have increased 2k in quality


----------



## StevenC

budda said:


> Listeners dont care about anything the performer had to do, unless the listener needs to be an elitist to others.


On the other hand, if you live in a small country town where the bars only hire singers who can't sing it starts to become fair to complain that the entertainment can't play guitar either.


----------



## budda

StevenC said:


> On the other hand, if you live in a small country town where the bars only hire singers who can't sing it starts to become fair to complain that the entertainment can't play guitar either.



It's early here - can you explain how a poor singer means guitarist complaints?


----------



## StevenC

budda said:


> It's early here - can you explain how a poor singer means guitarist complaints?


Oh sorry. Meant that the singer is also playing guitar. Like acoustic and singing.

Around here all the singers tend to learn they can make money singing in bars if they learn guitar, and these are the only people that get any gigs. For a long time my Sunday routine was finishing work in one bar, then walking around the corner to another for an hour or two until the entertainment came on.

In the city, I know people who do the same thing for a living, but they are actually good because you can't fake it there. That's when the capo for convenience becomes pretty important, for playing a request on the fly or finding a better key.


----------



## budda

That makes much more sense  thank you.


----------



## technomancer

Emperoff said:


> Jackson USA has just increased prices for like... 2k? So yeah, money =/= quality by any means. I seriously doubt they have increased 2k in quality



Basic economics come into play as well... this was a straight move to cut demand


----------



## works0fheart

Anyone here ever tried metal picks? Been giving them a try recently and finding that I really like the sound from them but they feel very different than what I'm used to.


----------



## Emperoff

technomancer said:


> Basic economics come into play as well... this was a straight move to cut demand



If we consider the Jackson USA Facebook group as the target demographic, it definetely was an intelligent move.


----------



## Matt08642

Imagine thinking a tool to transpose a song to a different key is for uncreative people. They could literally take the capo off and just play the same song they still had to create.


----------



## odibrom

works0fheart said:


> Anyone here ever tried metal picks? Been giving them a try recently and finding that I really like the sound from them but they feel very different than what I'm used to.



I've grind my picks from 4mm thick steel. I'd rather use stainless steel but it wasn't available. It delivers a sharp attack and tone, but I kind of like the way they allow me to play. Their shape is a mix between Big Stubbys and Jazz 3.

I've been using them for about 1.5 to 2 years already and can't complain. They aren't perfect yet, But I'll get there once I find time to make a couple more... Oh, and I glue some sand paper on both their surfaces so to get a perfect grip without much effort.


----------



## works0fheart

There's a company based out of Osaka that makes some pretty decent ones that I got while I was out there. They're called Big West Creations. I've seen them on a few sites here and there. They're pretty decent. I have the jazz 3 size ones but being metal they're obviously a litttttle heavier. They don't have the same clarity of attack as my regular jazz IIIs though. There is another one I have by them that is super thin that sounds great but it feels weird for me to use a thin pick. It wears out my hand faster for whatever reason. I'm trying to make myself get used to it but it just feels so odd for it to be that thin but also very stiff. It feels like playing with a razor or something lol


----------



## odibrom

I like picks that don't talk to the strings like "excuse me, will you let me pass? I just wanna go trough you for a bit, is that ok?" I like picks that go like "GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY WAY!" to the strings... steel is my path, stainless steel when possible.

I've tried some of Jim Dunlop made of Stainless Steel and others made of Aluminium, both pretty thin. The Stainles Steel ones felt a bit scratchy when confronting the strings and the aluminium ones felt nice, but eroded pretty fast, I'd get my fingers dirty just playing for a bit. So I started searching at local hardware stores for steel _flat_ rods and found ones that were suitable, 4mm thick, 1meter long and about 25mm wide. I've been doing my own picks since I bought one... cut, grind, "polish", glue some sand paper, done. Picks for life.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

1) If you can't back up your crazy gear claims with clips for proof..then you're just wasting everyone's time sputtering nonsense. (mY 5150 Is GoOdEr ThAn Da 6505!!11)

2) Ultimately the "in the mix" factor is what matters. Idiotic, small differences in tone (I changed one tube with the exact same type..only a different brand cause DA TONEZ!) aren't important because it won't make a huge difference. 

3) The only reason you notice these "grand" tonal differences is because you sit alone in front of the amp laser focused on the sounds it's making. No one else is paying that much attention to your sound...so nobody's gonna hear it the way you do. Again, when adding other instruments it's just a small part in the overall picture.

4) Most musicians hear with their eyes and can't tell one goddamn thing from another. You can easily fool them which just proves most have no fucking clue as to what they're talking about.


----------



## broj15

Maybe not an unpopular opinion but I've recently done a 180 on preferring lots of string tension over a normal/a little lighter string tension. My picking hand is still trying to adapt but my fretting hand is much happier.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

broj15 said:


> Maybe not an unpopular opinion but I've recently done a 180 on preferring lots of string tension over a normal/a little lighter string tension. My picking hand is still trying to adapt but my fretting hand is much happier.


I'm getting some 9-42 and 10-46 strings (wanted something slightly lower) with some slightly different strings to swap in. 9-*12-15*-24-32-42 and 10-13-*16*-26-36-46 -- I wanted to try 8-11-14-22-30-42 in E and 9-12-15-24-32-44 in Eb, because they were really close, but Elixir doesn't have the 8, 22, or 44. It really sucks that they have gauges missing, especially with the wound strings, because the gaps in between gauges is bigger.


----------



## broj15

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm getting some 9-42 and 10-46 strings (wanted something slightly lower) with some slightly different strings to swap in. 9-*12-15*-24-32-42 and 10-13-*16*-26-36-46 -- I wanted to try 8-11-14-22-30-42 in E and 9-12-15-24-32-44 in Eb, because they were really close, but Elixir doesn't have the 8, 22, or 44. It really sucks that they have gauges missing, especially with the wound strings, because the gaps in between gauges is bigger.



I feel that on the whole missing gauges thing and trying to piece stuff together from multiple sets. I have a couple different gauges coming from string joy but right now I'm currently playing a 12-60 set in b standard/drop A instead of the 14-65. Also went with a thicker pick (.77 up to 1mm) with a much sharper beveled tip and it's made some picking techniques easier, but I'm still trying to adapt some other techniques.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

broj15 said:


> I feel that on the whole missing gauges thing and trying to piece stuff together from multiple sets. I have a couple different gauges coming from string joy but right now I'm currently playing a 12-60 set in b standard/drop A instead of the 14-65. Also went with a thicker pick (.77 up to 1mm) with a much sharper beveled tip and it's made some picking techniques easier, but I'm still trying to adapt some other techniques.


I'm odd. I prefer thinner strings, thicker pick, and thicker strings, thinner pick (relatively speaking). The E standard guitar uses 9-46 currently, and I use a green Tortex pick. The Eb standard guitar uses 10-49 currently, and I use a yellow Tortex pick with that guitar. Just "feels" right for some reason.


----------



## USMarine75

works0fheart said:


> Anyone here ever tried metal picks? Been giving them a try recently and finding that I really like the sound from them but they feel very different than what I'm used to.



PSA

Don’t eat them.


----------



## I play music

USMarine75 said:


> PSA
> 
> Don’t eat them.


What is PSA?


----------



## _MonSTeR_

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> 2) Ultimately the "in the mix" factor is what matters. Idiotic, small differences in tone (I changed one tube with the exact same type..only a different brand cause DA TONEZ!) aren't important because it won't make a huge difference.



I knew a guy in a fairly (but not massively) successful LA club band who said the crowd only really knows two tones, the loud one and the quiet one, meaning distorted and clean. He had point, I've never known a crowd be able to to tell whether my haunting mids were most haunting when they were set to 5.7 or 5.8...


----------



## _MonSTeR_

PSA is Public Service Announcement


----------



## USMarine75

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I knew a guy in a fairly (but not massively) successful LA club band who said the crowd only really knows two tones, the loud one and the quiet one, meaning distorted and clean. He had point, I've never known a crowd be able to to tell whether my haunting mids were most haunting when they were set to 5.7 or 5.8...



Yeah exactly this.

Look at Richie Kotzen. Dude sounds nearly the same live with a Victory RK50 or RK100, vintage Marshall heads, Cornford RK100, or Fender Vibro King combo.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I say it all the time. NOBODY notices that shit. In a show setting, nobody really cares because they can't tell the difference unless it's clean vs dirty tones. I have NEVER heard anyone outside of gear nerds trying to compare the amp tones they heard at a show.

Speaking of which...most of the time you can't. You could see a wall of Marshalls, but backstage they're just flat fakes and the guitarist is plugged into a computer. In studio OR live..anything can be anything. Stop obsessing about guitar sounds. You'll find that regardless of what you played through (your amp blew up so you had to use backline gear or some other band's rig), no one is gonna know the damn difference....ESPECIALLY since you (the vast majority of people reading this) aren't in some big band where people are familiar with your sound. No one's gonna know you're not using the same amp from your album because most haven't heard it and have no fucking clue who you are. Welcome to reality. Get over yourself.


----------



## Emperoff

There's nothing wrong on using whatever you want to shape your tone. Pedals, tubes, whatever. Just don't pretend you're doing it for your audience.


----------



## odibrom

USMarine75 said:


> Yeah exactly this.
> 
> Look at Richie Kotzen. Dude sounds nearly the same live with a Victory RK50 or RK100, vintage Marshall heads, Cornford RK100, or Fender Vibro King combo.



... so can we all finally agree that tone is in the fingers?


----------



## works0fheart

USMarine75 said:


> PSA
> 
> Don’t eat them.



Do you have a story you'd like to share with the class? Lol


----------



## MaxOfMetal

works0fheart said:


> Do you have a story you'd like to share with the class? Lol



Yes. 

*starts crying*

https://www.cancerhealth.com/articl...halens-claim-guitar-pick-caused-throat-cancer


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yes.
> 
> *starts crying*
> 
> https://www.cancerhealth.com/articl...halens-claim-guitar-pick-caused-throat-cancer



So by that logic all brass section players should have throat cancer?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Emperoff said:


> So by that logic all brass section players should have throat cancer?



Can we make a single funny without eight paragraphs explaining it? 

It was a dark joke by @USMarine75.


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Can we make a single funny without eight paragraphs explaining it?
> 
> It was a dark joke by @USMarine75.



I think we all got it. Just pointing out Eddie's bullshit


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Emperoff said:


> I think we all got it. Just pointing out Eddie's bullshit



Well yeah, I don't think anyone thinks it was metal picks vs. decades of damn near uninterrupted chain smoking. I'm sure deep down Eddie didn't believe it. It's just hard reckoning with causing your own death in such a stupid, preventable way.


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> There's nothing wrong on using whatever you want to shape your tone. Pedals, tubes, whatever. *Just don't pretend you're doing it for your audience.*



this is possibly the most succinct summary of GAS/the lust for tone I've ever heard


----------



## broj15

odibrom said:


> ... so can we all finally agree that tone is in the fingers?



Tone is 90% in the fingers but I can guarantee you at least I'm gonna sound different if I'm playing a dual rec, jc120, or a twin.

Idk I've seen multiple people use the same amp in live situations and they've sounded different and I've seen a guitarist use different amps and sound basically the same. Maybe I just notice a difference in guitar tones in a live setting because I'm a gear nerd or maybe it's because different amps sound different, idk.

But that leads me into an opinion that I'm sure will draw some vitriol: maybe some of y'all should start listening to & seeing bands that use real amps instead of the big 3 on this forum: bedroom v neck "prog", omg mucho technique such sweeps metal, and crappy bar bands.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

broj15 said:


> Tone is 90% in the fingers but I can guarantee you at least I'm gonna sound different if I'm playing a dual rec, jc120, or a twin.
> 
> Idk I've seen multiple people use the same amp in live situations and they've sounded different and I've seen a guitarist use different amps and sound basically the same. Maybe I just notice a difference in guitar tones in a live setting because I'm a gear nerd or maybe it's because different amps sound different, idk.
> 
> But that leads me into an opinion that I'm sure will draw some vitriol: maybe some of y'all should start listening to & seeing bands that use real amps instead of the big 3 on this forum: bedroom v neck "prog", omg mucho technique such sweeps metal, and crappy bar bands.


I hold firm that there is a difference between tone and voicing. Tone is how a player attacks the strings, frets, etc. Voicing is how the shit used sounds at the asshole end of the guitar signal.


----------



## budda

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I hold firm that there is a difference between tone and voicing. Tone is how a player attacks the strings, frets, etc. Voicing is how the shit used sounds at the asshole end of the guitar signal.


.

Isnt the asshole end of the guitar signal the player?


----------



## odibrom

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I hold firm that there is a difference between tone and voicing. Tone is how a player attacks the strings, frets, etc. Voicing is how the shit used sounds at the asshole end of the guitar signal.



Interesting point of view, food for thought...

@budda ... noooo, it's the listener/audience. The guitar player can never be there and at the same time at the front, it would create a time/space paradox, one body cannot be in 2 different places at the same time... (this is a joke, please don't take seriously).


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Running a business and doing recording has turned me into an old man when it comes to music and gear.

I'm angry, short tempered, and I want the job done as simply and effectively as possible. When people start rambling about tone woods and tube differences and shit I just wanna punch them. The shortest distance between two places is a straight line, so that's where I'm at when it comes to gear.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying the mysticism that comes with gear. People like to tinker and explore and that's alright.

But for me, I ain't got time for that shit. I like to get right to the action at get the job done and move on to the next.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

The player is the mouth. If you ingest bullshit, you're going to put out bullshit.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The player is the mouth. If you ingest bullshit, you're going to put out bullshit.


...he's right, you know


----------



## sakeido

budda said:


> .
> 
> Isnt the asshole end of the guitar signal the player?


hey man I'm just trying to cultivate that lead guitarist energy 



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Running a business and doing recording has turned me into an old man when it comes to music and gear.
> 
> I'm angry, short tempered, and I want the job done as simply and effectively as possible. When people start rambling about tone woods and tube differences and shit I just wanna punch them. The shortest distance between two places is a straight line, so that's where I'm at when it comes to gear.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with enjoying the mysticism that comes with gear. People like to tinker and explore and that's alright.
> 
> But for me, I ain't got time for that shit. I like to get right to the action at get the job done and move on to the next.


the best part is when they are splitting hairs over tone woods and the specific type of nickel used in their frets, but they don't practice the right shit so they can't mute their guitar for shit so they have this great tone with tons of superfluous noise ruining everything all the time so, actually, their tone blows 

totally not talking about myself 10 years ago or anything there


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Tinker on your own time. When you're on the clock, get shit done or fuck off.


----------



## I play music

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yes.
> 
> *starts crying*
> 
> https://www.cancerhealth.com/articl...halens-claim-guitar-pick-caused-throat-cancer


"What’s more, only certain types of metal have been proved harmful to human health—for example, mercury and cobalt" 
So what about those Ernie Ball cobalt strings?


----------



## GunpointMetal

broj15 said:


> maybe some of y'all should start listening to & seeing bands that use real amps instead of the big 3 on this forum: bedroom v neck "prog", omg mucho technique such sweeps metal, and crappy bar bands.


Well 99% of the time those three things are the same thing...


----------



## c7spheres

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> .. When people start rambling about tone woods and tube differences and shit I just wanna punch them.



Don't read my experience I recently posted in the tube thread about the Mullard reissues. It'll really piss you off.
- I was mostly of the same mindset that power tubes made a negligible difference after already tube rolling years ago, but now I've converted back to the mindset that they make a huge difference. I'm thinking it's probably because the 2-50-2 amp I use. It probably brings out all the nuances of the differen tubes. I never noticed it nearly as much with my Peavey's and Mesa's before.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

What Tube thread?


----------



## c7spheres

Spaced Out Ace said:


> What Tube thread?


 
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/the-tube-thread.86014/page-17#post-5191758


----------



## budda

I play music said:


> "What’s more, only certain types of metal have been proved harmful to human health—for example, mercury and cobalt"
> So what about those Ernie Ball cobalt strings?



Wait til you hear about the fender lead and lead ii guitars.


----------



## Emperoff

I've been tube rolling A LOT lately. In my opinion part of the fun of owning a tube amp comes from, well, the tubes. They're something you can get your hands on and experiment. That doesn't mean a 150$ NOS Mullard is gonna turn your 5150 into a better amp. Obviously if you need shit as work tools you don't have time to go into rabbit holes such as this, but as a hobby it's definetely fun to experiment with different tubes.

Some circuits benefit more than others as well. The Triaxis is VERY sensitive to tube changes, some even necessary to use certain settings without clipping. Different tubes can also help with frequencies that you can't dial out of the amp without external processing. Yes, I can put an EQ in the loop. But I'd rather change a tube.

They're also not that pricey considering how much they last. NOS tubes stop becoming expensive if you buy them in lots. Unless you really aim for the "fabled" stuff (which might disappoint you anyway). The total I spent amounts to 11€ per tube. Less than a JJ.


----------



## Matt08642

Tweaks tone > playing more > trying new things > NOOOOOOOOOOOOO ITS CLEAN OR DIRTY TO THE CROWD FUCK YOU YOU SMOOTH-BRAINED PIECE OF SHIT


----------



## I play music

budda said:


> Wait til you hear about the fender lead and lead ii guitars.


The fender leads are not made out of lead but the ernie ball cobalt ARE made out of cobalt


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I play music said:


> The fender leads are not made out of lead but the ernie ball cobalt ARE made out of cobalt


And the snozzberries taste like snozzberries


----------



## bostjan

Cobalt is a necessary nutrient, so, as long as you don't ingest too much, you won't die. There was a story of some company making cheap beer that had some cobalt salt in it as a preservative or something (@MaxOfMetal might know about this, not because his job is beer, but simply because he knows just about everything), and IIRC, a handful of people died, all of whom drank inordinate amounts of the beer. Other than that, I don't recall every really hearing anything about cobalt poisoning in humans.


----------



## Mathemagician

Emperoff said:


> Yes, I can put an EQ in the loop. But I'd rather change a tube.



But why tho? If an EQ can not only resolve the tonal issue you were having AND open up more tonal opportunities. I mean if there IS a magic tube that makes it sound significantly different then sure, but for a minor tweak it really seems like a “how complex can I make this solution”. Which is fine, everyone gets enjoyment differently. I just don’t see the benefit of time invested for minor EQ-able things.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Mathemagician said:


> But why tho? If an EQ can not only resolve the tonal issue you were having AND open up more tonal opportunities. I mean if there IS a magic tube that makes it sound significantly different then sure, but for a minor tweak it really seems like a “how complex can I make this solution”. Which is fine, everyone gets enjoyment differently. I just don’t see the benefit of time invested for minor EQ-able things.



I'm thinking for less clutter. If I had an amp with an issue and the solutions were change a tube or use a pedal I'd change the tube. That way I don't have to add some other piece to my setup and I can keep it as simple as possible


----------



## budda

I play music said:


> The fender leads are not made out of lead but the ernie ball cobalt ARE made out of cobalt



You missed the joke.


----------



## I play music

budda said:


> You missed the joke.


I did not want a joke but information. 
With some googleing I found out that cobalt really seems to be something that might cause cancer but what I found is more for metal workers, I'm still unsure if cobalt strings could cause a health risk. 
Good thing is I'm not a fan of those EB strings anyway


----------



## Emperoff

Mathemagician said:


> But why tho? If an EQ can not only resolve the tonal issue you were having AND open up more tonal opportunities. I mean if there IS a magic tube that makes it sound significantly different then sure, but for a minor tweak it really seems like a “how complex can I make this solution”. Which is fine, everyone gets enjoyment differently. I just don’t see the benefit of time invested for minor EQ-able things.



Because the less shit I use to get my tones, the better.


----------



## odibrom

The EQ would be one of those "the less things", because it condenses lots of functions in one housing... the Source Audio's EQ2 is particularly versatile in this matter... just saying that it REALLY is one of those "the less things the better"... in my opinion, that is... not on the cheap side though...


----------



## Emperoff

odibrom said:


> The EQ would be one of those "the less things", because it condenses lots of functions in one housing... the Source Audio's EQ2 is particularly versatile in this matter... just saying that it REALLY is one of those "the less things the better"... in my opinion, that is... not on the cheap side though...



Yeah, but imagine those people that just plug into their amps and can make them sound good for what they play without barely nothing else. Not even a boost. Just the right amp, and some basic FX. Well, that would be me.

Now there's the people that buy an amp with a boost and the EQ in the loop already planned, and that's fine. But I'd rather buy an amp that gets shit done from the start. And since I don't play djent and tune to low Z, I can allow myself that "luxury".


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> Yeah, but imagine those people that just plug into their amps and can make them sound good for what they play without barely nothing else. Not even a boost. Just the right amp, and some basic FX. Well, that would be me.
> 
> Now there's the people that buy an amp with a boost and the EQ in the loop already planned, and that's fine. But I'd rather buy an amp that gets shit done from the start. And since I don't play djent and tune to low Z, I can allow myself that "luxury".



As I'm a fan of the simplest and most logical approach I approve.

That being said, I likes me a boost...and heavy chorus. It's easier for me to go the digital amp route because all that shit comes in the same box. I hate fumbling with pedals and bullshit. Gimme everything in one box


----------



## laxu

Mathemagician said:


> But why tho? If an EQ can not only resolve the tonal issue you were having AND open up more tonal opportunities. I mean if there IS a magic tube that makes it sound significantly different then sure, but for a minor tweak it really seems like a “how complex can I make this solution”. Which is fine, everyone gets enjoyment differently. I just don’t see the benefit of time invested for minor EQ-able things.



An EQ can't shape how distortion is generated by the tube and that's where those quality and construction details come into play. It's fine tuning the amp circuit and at what point the tone shaping happens also matters.

But I agree that you can do a lot with an EQ and it would be the first thing to try if you own an EQ pedal.


----------



## odibrom

^^ that depends of where in the chain the EQ is placed. If in front of the amp it will shape how distortion is generated because it will filter the amp's input signal. If after the preamp, it will shape how one perceives the resulted distortion. It can eventually be used as a low quality cab emulator (depending on the EQ type, parameter Equalizers are good for this, I think) after the preamp and direct to audio interface, high pass and low pass filters and one is half way there...

most of us only look at EQs as tools to boost or cut targeted frequencies, but they're so much more, they may well be the Swiss Army Knife of Guitar and Bass FXs...


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Short scale feels better than longer scale for anything drop c or higher.


----------



## Boofchuck

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Short scale feels better than longer scale for anything drop c or higher.


This is an unpopular opinion?


----------



## akinari

Boofchuck said:


> This is an unpopular opinion?



You didn't know? Anything shorter than 28" won't work for D standard or lower, man.


----------



## Boofchuck

akinari said:


> You didn't know? Anything shorter than 28" won't work for D standard or lower, man.


Whew, at least my Banshee is 28". Guess I need more bigger guitars for more bigger riffs haha.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Boofchuck said:


> This is an unpopular opinion?


I'd say so considering pretty much all non Les Paul style metal specced guitars are 25.5"


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Boofchuck said:


> Whew, at least my Banshee is 28". Guess I need more bigger guitars for more bigger riffs haha.


Up the more bigness, dude.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TheBolivianSniper said:


> I'd say so considering pretty much all non Les Paul style metal specced guitars are 25.5"


SG, V and Explorer laugh in your general direction.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Boofchuck said:


> Whew, at least my Banshee is 28". Guess I need more bigger guitars for more bigger riffs haha.



The English snob in me refuses to ignore "more bigger".


----------



## Boofchuck

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The English snob in me refuses to ignore "more bigger".


Morer big?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Boofchuck said:


> Morer biggliest?



Fixed.


----------



## akinari

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fixed.



Mostorist giganticactlious.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Spaced Out Ace said:


> SG, V and Explorer laugh in your general direction.



Still, most variations of the shape made by other brands tend to be longer scale. I honestly haven't seen short scale be that popular outside of Gibson, PRS, and a little BC Rich but I don't really do that much research into scale. I tend not to play any tunings that need particular scale requirements like drop F or double E standard.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

akinari said:


> Mostorist giganticactlious.


Ah yes. The scientific name


----------



## John

I much prefer 24 frets over 22 frets on guitars, especially on single cutaway/LP style guitars. It's enough to be a dealbreaker on quite a few guitars I've seen over the years, especially out of ESP and Paul Reed Smith.

As much as I hear the those who like 22 insist that the neck pickup is "in the right spot," I've yet to find that's necessarily any better for me. In many cases, I actually get along much more with the neck pickups on my 24 (and 25) fret guitars, along with having the extra frets at my disposal. Sounds like an easily better choice in my experience.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Prefer neck pickups when there are 24 frets. I don't like them when they are in that harmonic node that makes them scooped as hell.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

....people use neck pickups?


----------



## akinari

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....people use neck pickups?



........they make guitars with more than 5 frets?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

akinari said:


> ........they make guitars with more than 5 frets?



Why do guitars have more than 3 strings?


----------



## budda

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Prefer neck pickups when there are 24 frets. I don't like them when they are in that harmonic node that makes them scooped as hell.



Scooped? I always notice more bass and low mid frequencies but no scoop.


----------



## Emperoff

budda said:


> Scooped? I always notice more bass and low mid frequencies but no scoop.



It could be. I have my guitars wired so I can select the coil closest to the neck in both pickups (in series). The result is a scooped tone, which works great for cleans.


----------



## odibrom

Emperoff said:


> It could be. I have my guitars wired so I can select the coil closest to the neck in both pickups (in series). The result is a scooped tone, which works great for cleans.



Are you using Seymour Duncan TripleShot rings or similar circuitry?

... also, are the coils the same or are they different like one with slugs and the other with screws?


----------



## Emperoff

odibrom said:


> Are you using Seymour Duncan TripleShot rings or similar circuitry?
> 
> ... also, are the coils the same or are they different like one with slugs and the other with screws?



Pickup rings in my guitars? No chance! 

Just a regular push-pull. The coils depend on the pickups, so it's different with each guitar. Some are symmetrical, some others are not. Obviously the more different the pickups are, the more noticeable the effect is.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

odibrom said:


> Are you using Seymour Duncan TripleShot rings or similar circuitry?
> 
> ... also, are the coils the same or are they different like one with slugs and the other with screws?



The Triple Shot has become my favorite thing


----------



## broj15

johnucol said:


> I much prefer 24 frets over 22 frets on guitars, especially on single cutaway/LP style guitars. It's enough to be a dealbreaker on quite a few guitars I've seen over the years, especially out of ESP and Paul Reed Smith.
> 
> As much as I hear the those who like 22 insist that the neck pickup is "in the right spot," I've yet to find that's necessarily any better for me. In many cases, I actually get along much more with the neck pickups on my 24 (and 25) fret guitars, along with having the extra frets at my disposal. Sounds like an easily better choice in my experience.



I have never felt limited by a 21 or 22 fret guitar until recently when I tried to learn a Batushka song on a 6 string . For reference they play 8's in f# standard and I'm using a 6 in b standard & trying to transpose the notes as best as I can. But after this, I can see why some people feel like 24 or more frets is a necessity.

Edit: also I've heard the whole "neck pickup in the right spot" thing before, but I've personally never noticed a difference. Of course there've been other factors at play (obviously different pickups) but I've felt like the neck position on any of my 24 fret guitars sounded bad or wrong for any application.


----------



## Emperoff

The "22 fret neck pickup magic spot" is a stupid myth. The bridge pickup spot varies wildly in plenty of guitars and you never hear a whisper about it.


----------



## dr_game0ver

I dont like jumbo frets.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> The bridge pickup spot varies wildly in plenty of guitars and you never hear a whisper about it.


Which sucks because I find it plays a huge part.


----------



## odibrom

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The Triple Shot has become my favorite thing



Mine as well, although I don't use them much because... they're only in 6 string format as far as I know and I'm a 7 strings kind of guy. I have, however sold the "idea" to a friend of mine who is adding these to all of his guitars with rings... it's these rings and the Freeway switches... A combo of these rings with one freeway 3x3-05 ultra switch and one transforms a regular HH guitar into a 72 different tones monster...



Emperoff said:


> Pickup rings in my guitars? No chance!
> 
> Just a regular push-pull. The coils depend on the pickups, so it's different with each guitar. Some are symmetrical, some others are not. Obviously the more different the pickups are, the more noticeable the effect is.



I only have these rings in one of my guitars, which is the only 6 stringer I seldom play and also only because it already had rings from factory, so... but I've manage to recreate their wiring scheme in one of my modded guitars + piezos + Freeway 3x3-05 ultra switch = 145 different tones monster to play with...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Emperoff said:


> The "22 fret neck pickup magic spot" is a stupid myth. The bridge pickup spot varies wildly in plenty of guitars and you never hear a whisper about it.


Edward wants to have a talk with you...


----------



## BigViolin

.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BigViolin said:


> .


I disagree


----------



## youngthrasher9

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Which sucks because I find it plays a huge part.


I had an RGIB6 that I always thought sounded so bassy and muddy because the bridge pickup was too far forward among other things.


----------



## Science_Penguin

I'm experimenting playing without a pick...

...I'm kinda liking it honestly. Dunno if it's gonna become permanent, but it feels pretty good.


----------



## odibrom

Science_Penguin said:


> I'm experimenting playing without a pick...
> 
> ...I'm kinda liking it honestly. Dunno if it's gonna become permanent, but it feels pretty good.



Finger style? Nice, I have a friend that "lost" his picks a while ago and is super happy with it. Attack, tone and feel will change substantially... and also brain drainage...


----------



## Nillet

I don't like the Tremonti MT15. Volume taper non-existent and i didn't dig the tone. Everyone seems to love them but not me.


----------



## USMarine75

Science_Penguin said:


> I'm experimenting playing without a pick...
> 
> ...I'm kinda liking it honestly. Dunno if it's gonna become permanent, but it feels pretty good.



Welcome aboard.

Checkout Andre Nieri if you haven't already. You're welcome.


----------



## bostjan

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I disagree



He does have a point though, full stop.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Neural DSP sims are hot garbage...ESPECIALLY the Fortin Nameless


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Neural DSP sims are hot garbage...ESPECIALLY the Fortin Nameless



Ok, this will get hot


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Neural DSP sims are hot garbage...ESPECIALLY the Fortin Nameless



I was about to buy the Nolly, any specific reason?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Neural DSP sims are hot garbage...ESPECIALLY the Fortin Nameless



What didn't you like? I really dug the Cory Wong, and the Plini was fun. The Cali and NTS were sorta uninspiring, but I wouldn't say terrible.


----------



## MatrixClaw

odibrom said:


> Are you using Seymour Duncan TripleShot rings or similar circuitry?
> 
> ... also, are the coils the same or are they different like one with slugs and the other with screws?


Never heard of these, but now I must have them!


----------



## Emperoff

I haven't even tried NeuralDSP sims. Because:
- iLok
- I'm done buying unsupported plugins.
- Expensive
- No shared platform (workflow killer).

I'd rather use Helix. Which is the exact opposite to all that.


----------



## sakeido

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Neural DSP sims are hot garbage...ESPECIALLY the Fortin Nameless



well that's ... 

but ... 

I don't think ..... 

they sound so ........ 

actually I only play the Cali, the Nameless is definitely a bit silly


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> What didn't you like? I really dug the Cory Wong, and the Plini was fun. The Cali and NTS were sorta uninspiring, but I wouldn't say terrible.



The boosts were terrible and sucked the balls out of everything..the cab sims were uninspiring, the amp was super gainy with no real character. I hate Fortin amps..so there's that. It's all the modern metal shit I hate in one box. Ball-less ubergained out max mid lifelessness. Usually with suites there's something to like. I tried their Omega amps one and the fortin one and I hated both. My 10 dollar omega amp sim sounded much better and I have no idea what the Nameless was supposed to be...a modded Marshall perhaps? But it had none of the character of one. I didn't just dislike it...I hated it. I had it for like 20 min before getting rid of it.


----------



## I play music

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The boosts were terrible and sucked the balls out of everything..the cab sims were uninspiring, the amp was super gainy with no real character. I hate Fortin amps..so there's that. It's all the modern metal shit I hate in one box. Ball-less ubergained out max mid lifelessness. Usually with suites there's something to like. I tried their Omega amps one and the fortin one and I hated both. My 10 dollar omega amp sim sounded much better and I have no idea what the Nameless was supposed to be...a modded Marshall perhaps? But it had none of the character of one. I didn't just dislike it...I hated it. I had it for like 20 min before getting rid of it.


Yeah I don't necessarily think they simulate the Fortin badly but I don't like Fortin stuff


----------



## sakeido

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The boosts were terrible and sucked the balls out of everything..the cab sims were uninspiring, the amp was super gainy with no real character. I hate Fortin amps..so there's that. It's all the modern metal shit I hate in one box. Ball-less ubergained out max mid lifelessness. Usually with suites there's something to like. I tried their Omega amps one and the fortin one and I hated both. My 10 dollar omega amp sim sounded much better and I have no idea what the Nameless was supposed to be...a modded Marshall perhaps? But it had none of the character of one. I didn't just dislike it...I hated it. I had it for like 20 min before getting rid of it.



I actually do agree with that, I don't use the built-in pedals in favor of some tube screamer models I got from elsewhere (Nembrini's new one is both free and hot) and I use Torpedo Wall of Sound with Ownhammer IRs instead of the built in cab sim. 

You actually can't even use the cab sim if you are multi-tracking guitars, it has a lot of phase issues.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Fortin = shit


----------



## laxu

Nillet said:


> I don't like the Tremonti MT15. Volume taper non-existent and i didn't dig the tone. Everyone seems to love them but not me.



I don't disagree at all. That amp needs less gain on the lead channel and a better master volume.


----------



## Metropolis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The boosts were terrible and sucked the balls out of everything..the cab sims were uninspiring, the amp was super gainy with no real character. I hate Fortin amps..so there's that. It's all the modern metal shit I hate in one box. Ball-less ubergained out max mid lifelessness. Usually with suites there's something to like. I tried their Omega amps one and the fortin one and I hated both. My 10 dollar omega amp sim sounded much better and I have no idea what the Nameless was supposed to be...a modded Marshall perhaps? But it had none of the character of one. I didn't just dislike it...I hated it. I had it for like 20 min before getting rid of it.



Grind cuts lows a lot and it has very glassy high mids, so it might be not for everyone. Basically acts like an eq. Hex drive is more like a regular tubescreamer, nothing special and does it's job. With two gain knobs, push/pull master volume and low/high inputs you can get it to sound just about anything, and there are mid and presence knobs for taming all those mids and ball-less highs you know  You need to dial it in more than 20 minutes to learn the amp's quirks, it's not a 5150.

I found Neural DSP's NTS and Omega Granophyre to be uninspiring to me. At least their modeling sounds better than Helix...


----------



## odibrom

MatrixClaw said:


> Never heard of these, but now I must have them!



I'm so sorry to open that rabbit hole for you... next stop is Frewway Switch... go, now!...


----------



## budda

odibrom said:


> I'm so sorry to open that rabbit hole for you... next stop is Frewway Switch... go, now!...



You monster.


----------



## MatrixClaw

odibrom said:


> I'm so sorry to open that rabbit hole for you... next stop is Frewway Switch... go, now!...


FUUUUU


----------



## Emperoff

laxu said:


> I don't disagree at all. That amp needs less gain on the lead channel and a better master volume.



Everytime I hear this complaint on any amp, I say the same. Put a JAN 5751 tube on it (or more if you want a more drastic gain reduction). I can even sell them to you, since I have like 50 of them 

Too much gain can be easily solved with smart tube choice. The other way around... Not so much.


----------



## Matt08642

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Neural DSP sims are hot garbage...ESPECIALLY the Fortin Nameless



Truth - I tried the Nolly and the Plini and was just not impressed for what they would cost past the free trial. Tried loading some IRs that I like to use with my actual amp, still didn't like them that much. At best I got them to sound almost ok.

Oh also the clean spacey echo infinite delay Periphery b-side tone is obnoxious "up your own ass" ethereal space metal cringe for bands with names like "Rectangles" or "Textures" or "Waves" etc etc etc

I guess it's an OK solution for plugging direct in to an interface, but even then I prefer free plugins like the LeCto.


----------



## TheBlackBard

The 6505+ is better WITHOUT a boost, unless on the rhythm channel. I find I get everything I want/need on the lead channel without one.
I love the Boss MT-2, but then again, as a fan of black metal/Swedish death metal, maybe that's to be expected.


----------



## odibrom

budda said:


> You monster.



Who, me?? NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!.....




MatrixClaw said:


> FUUUUU



Yes, the force is strong with you, padawan...


EDIT: I guess this was the first time I used this Yoda smile...

EDIT2: I just realized I misspelled FREEWAY SWITCH and as so, here's the link: https://www.freewayswitch.com/


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Metropolis said:


> Grind cuts lows a lot and it has very glassy high mids, so it might be not for everyone. Basically acts like an eq. Hex drive is more like a regular tubescreamer, nothing special and does it's job. With two gain knobs, push/pull master volume and low/high inputs you can get it to sound just about anything, and there are mid and presence knobs for taming all those mids and ball-less highs you know  You need to dial it in more than 20 minutes to learn the amp's quirks, it's not a 5150.
> 
> I found Neural DSP's NTS and Omega Granophyre to be uninspiring to me. At least their modeling sounds better than Helix...


I'm well aware of what the pedals are for. They are still garbage.
You don't need to spend hours or days with an amp sim to figure out if it's going to work. If it sounds shit with it's own setup and with your own, and free sims sound better with no work, and the base tone of the neural is trash then it's not worth all the money they want. It takes less than 20 min to figure that out. 20 min was me actually trying with it to understand why anyone would pay for that shit. That ilok nonsense and all of that was just annoying. NOTHING about that sim from download to deletion was enjoyable


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TheBlackBard said:


> The 6505+ is better WITHOUT a boost, unless on the rhythm channel. I find I get everything I want/need on the lead channel without one.



I never understood using a boost on the 6505+ lead channel or 5150III red channel. Both amps already have a pretty fucking tight sound on their own. Like, do you only like the sound of pick attack and nothing else?


----------



## TheBlackBard

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never understood using a boost on the 6505+ lead channel or 5150III red channel. Both amps already have a pretty fucking tight sound on their own. Like, do you only like the sound of pick attack and nothing else?



So what led to this was I kept on going by others recommendations for settings on these amps. Gain at 3-4, then boost, but I found I was never really satisfied with that tone. I unplugged the boost pedal one day, and turned the gain up to a tad over 6, and I fell in love with the amp. Being that I have plenty of mids between my cab and amp, I turned those down to 2.5, turned my treble to 4 and boosted my presence to 9. I don't know why, but it doesn't even sound like your typical 6505+ sound. Perfect for my thrash/black metal needs.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never understood using a boost on the 6505+ lead channel or 5150III red channel. Both amps already have a pretty fucking tight sound on their own. Like, do you only like the sound of pick attack and nothing else?


 Boost..cause boost!


----------



## odibrom

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Boobs..cause boobs!



Corrected...

... or a less _macho man_ version...



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Boose..cause boose!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

odibrom said:


> Corrected...
> 
> ... or a less _macho man_ version...


I wholeheartedly agree with both


----------



## Mathemagician

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I never understood using a boost on the 6505+ lead channel or 5150III red channel. Both amps already have a pretty fucking tight sound on their own. Like, do you only like the sound of pick attack and nothing else?



Outside of Necrophagist? Lol. 

Nah but anytime I have ever played a preset with a massive gated sound it’s just funny to me. I don’t write/play music like that so I just ride the open low string a bit and admire how instantly it stops b it then I move along to another preset/start messing with the settings.


----------



## BornToLooze

I was listening to records with my wife the other night, and I can't remember what song it was, but she asked about what effect they were using (talk box) and we went down a youtube rabbit hole. More bands need to use a talk box.

I mean, hell, imagine if ol' Kirk upgraded from his wah wah


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

The talk box tubes are nasty, so... yeah. Probably why they don't.


----------



## BornToLooze

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The talk box tubes are nasty, so... yeah. Probably why they don't.



Ya, that's why I don't have one. 

I think it was Joe Walsh came up with a set up where you just change out the end 1 or 2 inches of it that were full of spit. I mean it's 2020, talk boxes have been a thing for like 40 years, there's got to be a way to make talk boxes more sanitary.







#MTBGA


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BornToLooze said:


> Ya, that's why I don't have one.
> 
> I think it was Joe Walsh came up with a set up where you just change out the end 1 or 2 inches of it that were full of spit. I mean it's 2020, talk boxes have been a thing for like 40 years, there's got to be a way to make talk boxes more sanitary.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> #MTBGA


I think it's 50 years, but yeah. Talk boxes are as gross as that shit box Miguel A Nunez Jr got offed in by that Jason imposter in the 80s.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I think it's 50 years, but yeah. Talk boxes are as gross as that shit box Miguel A Nunez Jr got offed in by that Jason imposter in the 80s.



They go even further back than that. Rudimentary ones were used in the 30's, but even production ones were available in the late 60's. 

The tube isn't that bad if cleaned regularly, it's the setup that was always a pain until recently.


----------



## BornToLooze

MaxOfMetal said:


> They go even further back than that. Rudimentary ones were used in the 30's, but even production ones were available in the late 60's.
> 
> The tube isn't that bad if cleaned regularly, it's the setup that was always a pain until recently.



I know there was a dude that had one on Heehaw way back when, but just like everyone else, I think Frampton Comes Alive when I think talk box.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I remember an old video of a dude who puked while using a talk box....the sound was life changing


----------



## Wuuthrad

‘69 Baby! Ahhh yeahhh...


----------



## Emperoff

They guy from ML SoundLabs is the Steven Slate of the IR world. He likes himself TOO much and can't stand his sales pitch bullshit. 

Most of his videos are: 80% his face, 20% material. Even in the ones he doesn't show up, his voice is twice the volume of the guitar tones .


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> They guy from ML SoundLabs is the Steven Slate of the IR world. He likes himself TOO much and can't stand his sales pitch bullshit.
> 
> Most of his videos are: 80% his face, 20% material. Even in the ones he doesn't show up, his voice is twice the volume of the guitar tones .



That Mikko dude? Yeah I get tired of him doing that rapey frat boy "You know you want me" stare and smile at me just because I wanna hear a goddamn amp sim.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Emperoff said:


> They guy from ML SoundLabs is the Steven Slate of the IR world. He likes himself TOO much and can't stand his sales pitch bullshit.
> 
> Most of his videos are: 80% his face, 20% material. Even in the ones he doesn't show up, his voice is twice the volume of the guitar tones .





DrakkarTyrannis said:


> That Mikko dude? Yeah I get tired of him doing that rapey frat boy "You know you want me" stare and smile at me just because I wanna hear a goddamn amp sim.



I miss the days before gear influences. When people would shut the fuck up and demo gear. Try watching a Fluff video, and it's 90% talking, 5% demo, 5%... whatever else. Same with Leon Todd at times. Dude's videos don't need to be 30 minutes long.


----------



## Metropolis

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> That Mikko dude? Yeah I get tired of him doing that rapey frat boy "You know you want me" stare and smile at me just because I wanna hear a goddamn amp sim.



Don't bring your own sexual fantasies here  Just kidding, but people are not gear again. He makes pretty darn good ir's, and his videos vary a lot from actual information to more light just talking kind of thing. Guess he likes to talk a lot, which is not too common with us finnish people.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

I don't even mind talking usually. Ola does a bunch of talking..Agufish does a lot of talking...but Mikko looks like he's waiting for that roofie he slipped in your drink to take effect so he can do shit to you while you're passed out. I actually prefer some talking and I usually don't like gear reviews that just play and say nothing.


----------



## Emperoff

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I miss the days before gear influences. When people would shut the fuck up and demo gear. Try watching a Fluff video, and it's 90% talking, 5% demo, 5%... whatever else. Same with Leon Todd at times. Dude's videos don't need to be 30 minutes long.



I've been checking Leon Todd videos lately (as he happens to be a preamp fanatic like me) and he's nowhere near those other dudes. Besides, the guy can really play and make kickass presets.

On the other hand, the Mikko ML guy literally talks staring at you for the whole video while occupying 2/3rds of the screen saying how his stuff is gonna change your life. It's just creepy. I'd rather go where the quality of a product speaks for itself (Ownhammer), instead of something being hyped into the stratosphere by its creator.

We all know Fluff is terrible, but at least his videos are not disturbing


----------



## budda

The thing with leon is hes talking because hes explaining whats happening. His 5 minute tone videos exist for just that reason


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> I've been checking Leon Todd videos lately (as he happens to be a preamp fanatic like me) and he's nowhere near those other dudes. Besides, the guy can really play and make kickass presets.
> 
> On the other hand, the Mikko ML guy literally talks staring at you for the whole video while occupying 2/3rds of the screen saying how his stuff is gonna change your life. It's just creepy. I'd rather go where the quality of a product speaks for itself (Ownhammer), instead of something being hyped into the stratosphere by its creator.
> 
> We all know Fluff is terrible, but at least his videos are not disturbing


For real....Mikko looks like he needs to be on a registry somewhere


----------



## SSK0909

Bet thats an unpopular opinion 
The guy often seems a little too provocative and trollish to get them views, but I gotta admit I've never seen anyone do such a thourough testing of the tube myth. And I know for sure noone has ever provided this much data to prove tube changes DO make a huge difference.


----------



## gnoll

I pretty much quit watching youtube gear videos. There's just barely any actual content there. Here's this thing, here's that thing, today we check out this thing, buy this thing. Bla bla. Why would I waste my time watching unnecessarily long ads?


----------



## BenjaminW

Emperoff said:


> I've been checking Leon Todd videos lately (as he happens to be a preamp fanatic like me) and he's nowhere near those other dudes. Besides, the guy can really play and make kickass presets.





budda said:


> The thing with leon is hes talking because hes explaining whats happening. His 5 minute tone videos exist for just that reason


Leon is the fucking GOAT.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

budda said:


> The thing with leon is hes talking because hes explaining whats happening. His 5 minute tone videos exist for just that reason



The latter is true. At least he mixes stuff him. I like Agufish too because at least his long videos are because he's going over almost every detail of a guitar since he does like... actual reviews. 

Ola is because he that's just the way he is. 

Other it's just


----------



## Emperoff

SSK0909 said:


> Bet thats an unpopular opinion
> The guy often seems a little too provocative and trollish to get them views, but I gotta admit I've never seen anyone do such a thourough testing of the tube myth. And I know for sure noone has ever provided this much data to prove tube changes DO make a huge difference.




This video is absolutely terrible in so many ways that I don't even know where to begin


----------



## sakeido

Emperoff said:


> This video is absolutely terrible in so many ways that I don't even know where to begin



the only good part of his videos are when he has his Distressor gain reduction meter in the background

shit is brickwalled so hard to put power into his voice. His mixes are  even his dialogue sounds weird af


----------



## odibrom

SSK0909 said:


> Bet thats an unpopular opinion
> The guy often seems a little too provocative and trollish to get them views, but I gotta admit I've never seen anyone do such a thourough testing of the tube myth. And I know for sure noone has ever provided this much data to prove tube changes DO make a huge difference.




... and lets not start on the videos' titles. It's like a race to see who gets the most tabloid approach and many times they don't even know what they're talking about... so fucking many click baits...

... but I'll have to see this video just for sake of... seeing it...


----------



## c7spheres

SSK0909 said:


> Bet thats an unpopular opinion
> The guy often seems a little too provocative and trollish to get them views, but I gotta admit I've never seen anyone do such a thourough testing of the tube myth. And I know for sure noone has ever provided this much data to prove tube changes DO make a huge difference.




- I didn't use to be a believer but I'm recently a believer. Tubes do make pretty big changes in feel and sound.
- I think a lot of it has to do with the amp itself. I didn't notice much difference's when I had my Mesa power amps and Peaveys but with my VHT 2-50-2 I can really tell a substantial difference between my Mullard reissues and my SED =C='s, especially with how certain overtones come out. 
- I think anyone who spends a substantial amount of time doing comparisons will be able to tell the difference in both feel and sound/tone. For example my Mullards have obviously less lows and they are tighter, the mid's are bumped and more chewy/articulate and the highs are more sterile too. The clarity and articulation between notes inside of chords are also a touch more blurry. The sound-stage is also narrower. That being said they are great tubes and require less work to make mix ready and I'd be willing to bet many people would prefer them over the =C='s.

- I like Glenn and can see in his video quite an effort to show how these amps are basically almost no different after tube rolling, but I also think things like him using an IR somewhat negate the test. most IR's I see drastically cut out the lows and high from the spectrum which is where a lot of feel and response is happening with the amp, especially in the low end. It changes everything about how the amp's/tubes characters come through. The IR essentially filters off a bunch of frequencys. It seems a lot of IR's are more mix-ready which makes sense. The first thing many people do is hack off the low end in a mix etc. I'd like to see the test without any processing at all. A straight up unity gain type mix would likely reveal more, imo. Glenn has some good vid ideas though. In his context it makes sense.
- If someone is playing metal for example and immediatly just LPF's everything and filters it through an IR then it likely won't make much if any difference because there's only one dynamic level and channel being played. All the nuances are focused around one thing.

- I can see why people have both opinions. I think it depends on the amp, the tubes, and the player whether it makes a difference or not to them. Spend time with the amp, playing different types of riffs and channels. Change tubes and do it again. Play the same diversty of riffs and after a few times of rolling tubes it's likely many differences will become apparent. Oh, and play dynamically too and listen for breakup and harmonic overtones etc.

- I wish they all sounded the same, then I wouldn't be in the conundrum of trying to find an acceptable replacement for my =C='s that are no longer made. I would much rather prefer the Mullards for 3-4x less cost and readily available. It's a real thing or else I would be happy as could be buying cheaper tubes.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> For real....Mikko looks like he needs to be on a registry somewhere



Wait. Is he really named Mikko? Looks like when I said he loves himself too much it wasn't too far off. He named the goddamn plugin after himself! 



c7spheres said:


> - I like Glenn and can see in his video quite an effort to show how these amps are basically almost no different after tube rolling, but I also think things like him using an IR somewhat negate the test. most IR's I see drastically cut out the lows and high from the spectrum which is where a lot of feel and response is happening with the amp, especially in the low end. It changes everything about how the amp's/tubes characters come through. The IR essentially filters off a bunch of frequencys. It seems a lot of IR's are more mix-ready which makes sense. The first thing many people do is hack off the low end in a mix etc. I'd like to see the test without any processing at all. A straight up unity gain type mix would likely reveal more, imo. Glenn has some good vid ideas though. In his context it makes sense.
> - If someone is playing metal for example and immediatly just LPF's everything and filters it through an IR then it likely won't make much if any difference because there's only one dynamic level and channel being played. All the nuances are focused around one thing.



He mentioned in another video that his Revv is his favourite amp, and that a big part of why it sounda the way it does is because the tube selection he made for it.

So basically he's full of shit and just made a shitty video to bait views, even if it contradicts its own previous statements. I won't go further into dissecting the video because there's just so much wrong stuff on it. He even had the balls to call it scientific


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> He mentioned in another video that his Revv is his favourite amp, and that a big part of why it sounda the way it does is because the tube selection he made for it.
> 
> So basically he's full of shit and just made a shitty video to bait views, even if it contradicts its own previous statements. I won't go further into dissecting the video because there's just so much wrong stuff on it. He even had the balls to call it scientific



Also most of the sample songs in his videos sound like shit to my ears. I'm sure he's good at something, but guitar tones can't be it.


----------



## odibrom

odibrom said:


> ... and lets not start on the videos' titles. It's like a race to see who gets the most tabloid approach and many times they don't even know what they're talking about... so fucking many click baits...
> 
> ... but I'll have to see this video just for sake of... seeing it...



... So, I've seen the video and I kind of agree with him as well as i agree that tubes matter in the sound of an amp. The question "How much do they matter?", well, less than a volume pot in my opinion... but they do matter...

... and answering to the "FEEL" thing, well, feel is what one receives, is the input information our brain has to process and we are all wired differently, which will mean that feel will change from person to person. It's not, however, that we cannot relearn how to wire ourselves (that would defeat the purpose of education), it's that some things are way harder to explain clearly than others, like how does one understand a certain combination of light frequencies we call colors... or sound waves for that fact. How does one describes how our brain processes a mix of sound waves like those we receive with from an amp? Simple, we use the combination of words "I FEEL"...

But I get him, although I feel him a bit aggressive talking like he's screaming all the time. We cannot, however, exclude feel from our decisions because we are emotional beings, not sterile ones. The thing is we MUST understand our feelings and that sometimes (many in fact, most of them) takes a life time to learn. I've changed the preamp tubes of my Triaxis about a year ago, not all, but some. I did notice small differences that I THINK were for the better. It felt to gain a quicker attack/response, more precise/focused maybe, but I'm constantly teaking some parameters around and change the programming so I use different pedals/controlers for the tone changes... as well as pickups and different coil combos, so where's my reference? Change the guitar, the strings, the hearing method and... gone with the wind. Tone wise, it really didn't change much, but tone changes as we perceive different levels of volume or a different attack/and or sustain due to newer versus older tubes, right?

Lets see how I FEEL on this within a year or so...


----------



## BenjaminW

Emperoff said:


> He mentioned in another video that his Revv is his favourite amp, and that a big part of why it sounda the way it does is because the tube selection he made for it.
> 
> So basically he's full of shit and just made a shitty video to bait views, even if it contradicts its own previous statements. I won't go further into dissecting the video because there's just so much wrong stuff on it. He even had the balls to call it scientific


Anyone else here get the vibe he's an elitist or is it just me looking too deep into this?


----------



## Matt08642

odibrom said:


> I feel him a bit aggressive talking like he's screaming all the time.



He's developed this obnoxious character and Flanderized himself:






His earlier videos were a bit yelly from time to time, but now every video is HEY GUYS GLENN FRRRRICKER HERE AHHHH KNOW WHAT FUCKIN DOESNT SUUUUCK? MY "BASS PLAYERS ARE FUCKING SHIT CUNTS" SHIRT NYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGJHHHvfhjs

I'm sure it gets him more views, but in a Stevie T way that I can't stand.


----------



## gunch

BenjaminW said:


> Anyone else here get the vibe he's an elitist or is it just me looking too deep into this?



I mean he’s a YouTuber and not like Andy Sneap or someshit


----------



## StevenC

I think you guys watch the wrong YouTubes. Like today I watched 55 minutes on 3 reverb pedals I would never even consider buying and just concluded "yeah, those sound good".


----------



## Science_Penguin

This is the best guitar demo I've seen in a while. 

I think we're gonna be seeing a lot more gear demos with "no talking" specified in the title in the near future.


----------



## Emperoff

Science_Penguin said:


> This is the best guitar demo I've seen in a while.
> 
> I think we're gonna be seeing a lot more gear demos with "no talking" specified in the title in the near future.




I do appreciate some talking explaining features, etc. But not being the main content of the video. I think Ola has a great balance there, although he never stays too long on non-metal settings .


----------



## narad

StevenC said:


> I think you guys watch the wrong YouTubes. Like today I watched 55 minutes on 3 reverb pedals I would never even consider buying and just concluded "yeah, those sound good".



The chase bliss was the best though.


----------



## rokket2005

I tend to cycle though different music related youtube channels pretty frequently. I find that after any length of time I get tired of a certain persons schtick and even if they are presenting useful information I enjoy straightforward and genuine channels the most. On that point I've been watching a bunch of Trevor Wong and Let's Talk About Math Rock lately and I like how to the point they are even if I'm not a huge math rock or emo guy.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

To be fair...tubes compared to other things don't make that much of a difference. In a mix the difference is barely noticeable if at all.


----------



## SSK0909

Glenn is a giant troll, as I also stated when posting the video.
But I have yet to see anyone post any form of counter argument. Theres not much evidence in people saying "it majes a huge difference in my amps!" Without having recordings to back it up. 

And I do agree with him that we tend to hear a bigger difference than there actually is, to justify a purchase. Thats common human behaviour. 

Do tubes change the amp feel? Maybe. But feel is a non measurable voodoo thing we make up in our own head. And even if they do, theres still no evidence they make a big impact on the actual sound of an amp.

But theres something classic guitarist about obsessing over stupid minor details like tubes, tonewoods, pickups etc instead of just playing more with our amp eq, which is often a far more powerfull tone shaping tool than all the others combined. Not one thing in the chain will have as dramatic of an effect on my tone as diming one of the eq controls on the amp


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

SSK0909 said:


> Glenn is a giant troll, as I also stated when posting the video.
> But I have yet to see anyone post any form of counter argument. Theres not much evidence in people saying "it majes a huge difference in my amps!" Without having recordings to back it up.
> 
> And I do agree with him that we tend to hear a bigger difference than there actually is, to justify a purchase. Thats common human behaviour.
> 
> Do tubes change the amp feel? Maybe. But feel is a non measurable voodoo thing we make up in our own head. And even if they do, theres still no evidence they make a big impact on the actual sound of an amp.
> 
> But theres something classic guitarist about obsessing over stupid minor details like tubes, tonewoods, pickups etc instead of just playing more with our amp eq, which is often a far more powerfull tone shaping tool than all the others combined. Not one thing in the chain will have as dramatic of an effect on my tone as diming one of the eq controls on the amp



EQ and speakers are what really matters. Everything else is just jewelry to complete the look. Your boutique boost, over priced fad pickups, unicorn fart tubes and custom strings don't transfer to much of anything in a live or recording environment.


----------



## diagrammatiks

If you're comparing new production tubes against each other there's not going to be much of a difference. They are all made on mostly the same lines and just bin labeled. 

If you're comparing good testing nos tubes, you'll likely to hear a difference since the performance for those tubes are going to be different.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

diagrammatiks said:


> If you're comparing new production tubes against each other there's not going to be much of a difference. They are all made on mostly the same lines and just bin labeled.
> 
> If you're comparing good testing nos tubes, you'll likely to hear a difference since the performance for those tubes are going to be different.


Nah..you won't hear a dramatic difference. In a recording and live setting no one is going to hear a difference.


----------



## diagrammatiks

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Nah..you won't hear a dramatic difference. In a recording and live setting no one is going to hear a difference.



ya nothing that really can't get eq'd out or masked if you're chain is long enough. I have a drawer full of very expensive tubes I don't even use anymore. cuz fuck it.


----------



## Emperoff

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> To be fair...tubes compared to other things don't make that much of a difference. In a mix the difference is barely noticeable if at all.



Barely anything makes a difference in a mix or a live setting. It's all self-satisfaction. This horse has been beaten to the undeath.


----------



## gnoll

Tubes do make a difference, but yes, it's not THAT big.

I'm obsessive enough to still sort of think about it, but I don't worry about tubes as much as I do speakers and cabs for example...

I think
1) mic and mic technique
2) speaker
3) cab, amp, guitar, pedals
4) tubes...? and whatever else that kinda makes a difference


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> Barely anything makes a difference in a mix or a live setting. It's all self-satisfaction. This horse has been beaten to the undeath.



Be that as it may...groups and forums are chock full of people thinking the Super Boutique 5000 pedal is gonna revolutionize their tone and that putting 6L6s in their Fender Tweed is gonna turn it into a Mesa Triple Rec and that the reason they can't get a good tone is they don't have the right strings and other such nonsense.

I have yet to ever see a post that says "Help me pick which amp/pedal/strings/pickups to use, just because I wanna talk gear and none of this shit really matters all that much"


----------



## Emperoff

What most people don't understand about tubes is that old tubes last a fuckton longer and are more rugged, as they were much better built. That's where the real value is, and that is a fact. Tone is what is subjective.

Another thing about tubes is that they're fucking cheap. If you have a 3k amplifier with 10$ tubes, it's not like spending 50$ in a nice tube for V1 (that you might not need to change ever again) is gonna break your bank. To me tube changes are similar to pìckup swaps in terms of actual difference and are much cheaper. They just don't have djent influencers behind them unlike pickups.

I'm tired of people crying in forums about their 5150 having poor cleans, or their hi-gain amps having too much gain when that can be easily solved with a single goddamn tube swap. But suddendly a 40$ JAN 5751 tube is expensive when 200$ boosters are no concern even if they do the same job as a 60$ one.


----------



## gnoll

Lol, imagine seeing one of those youtubers all of a sudden try and push nos tubes on us instead of the latest flavor-of-the-day tubescreamer clone... I think I'd pass out from the surprise...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> What most people don't understand about tubes is that old tubes last a fuckton longer and are more rugged, as they were much better built. That's where the real value is, and that is a fact. Tone is what is subjective.
> 
> Another thing about tubes is that they're fucking cheap. If you have a 3k amplifier with 10$ tubes, it's not like spending 50$ in a nice tube for V1 (that you might not need to change ever again) is gonna break your bank. To me tube changes are similar to pìckup swaps in terms of actual difference and are much cheaper. They just don't have djent influencers behind them unlike pickups.
> 
> I'm tired of people crying in forums about their 5150 having poor cleans, or their hi-gain amps having too much gain when that can be easily solved with a single goddamn tube swap. But suddendly a 40$ JAN 5751 tube is expensive when 200$ boosters are no concern even if they do the same job as a 60$ one.


C'mon with all this goddayum truth!


----------



## bostjan

Might be more a popular opinion than an unpopular opinion 'round these parts, but I can't stand any guitar-related youtube videos. Too much talking, padding out the run time, weird and untrue inferences, over acting, guys who do that one technique that they spam inappropriately, girls who are trying to bank off of their looks because you can't hear them at all over the backing track, having their friends and family react to them, etc.

It's not that it's 100% bullshit, but it's more that I have no tolerance for bullshit, and the bullshit is "expected."

Shame, since many of these people started out with some really fun or creative content, years ago.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Emperoff said:


> What most people don't understand about tubes is that old tubes last a fuckton longer and are more rugged, as they were much better built. That's where the real value is, and that is a fact. Tone is what is subjective.
> 
> Another thing about tubes is that they're fucking cheap. If you have a 3k amplifier with 10$ tubes, it's not like spending 50$ in a nice tube for V1 (that you might not need to change ever again) is gonna break your bank. To me tube changes are similar to pìckup swaps in terms of actual difference and are much cheaper. They just don't have djent influencers behind them unlike pickups.
> 
> I'm tired of people crying in forums about their 5150 having poor cleans, or their hi-gain amps having too much gain when that can be easily solved with a single goddamn tube swap. But suddendly a 40$ JAN 5751 tube is expensive when 200$ boosters are no concern even if they do the same job as a 60$ one.



eh ok but listen if you have 20 3k amplifiers.

honestly, a new production 5751 will do the same thing.

I don't disagree with you. My line of thought it is that nos tubes are a dwindling supply. Although it's been 8 years since I decided that and there still seems to be a fair bit left. At any rate, I'd just prefer to base my sound on something I know I can buy. I still have about 30 nos 12ax7s left though.

But then again my closet looks like Doug's so don't mind me.




bostjan said:


> Might be more a popular opinion than an unpopular opinion 'round these parts, but I can't stand any guitar-related youtube videos. Too much talking, padding out the run time, weird and untrue inferences, over acting, guys who do that one technique that they spam inappropriately, girls who are trying to bank off of their looks because you can't hear them at all over the backing track, having their friends and family react to them, etc.
> 
> It's not that it's 100% bullshit, but it's more that I have no tolerance for bullshit, and the bullshit is "expected."
> 
> Shame, since many of these people started out with some really fun or creative content, years ago.



blame YouTube for this one. A lot of my favorite content were just short and too the point videos. but those don't get monetized as well. So now everything is like 30 minute blablalbalbalbal. Honestly, I'd rather read a book.


----------



## Emperoff

diagrammatiks said:


> eh ok but listen if you have 20 3k amplifiers.
> 
> honestly, a new production 5751 will do the same thing. But then again my closet looks like Doug's so don't mind me.



They will effectively reduce the gain by 30% as well, but you won't be getting a 5751 at all. Current 5751s tubes are just 12AX7s with poor gain results. They have none of the construction elements of the original design of the 5751, which were extra rugged and resistant to microphonics for military uses (supporting metal rods, thick micas or extra mica supports, etc). I've accidentally dropped 5751 Sylvanias on the floor and they still work perfectly.

Same as how a "7025" now is a 12AX7 with low noise, but it has no spiral wound filament unlike true 7025 tubes. Or a current "ECC803s", which has no frame grid construction. 

The current production versions of those tubes are just a joke. They just change the name according to test results with no changes in internal construction.


----------



## USMarine75

That’s why I only listen to Stevie T at this point. 

I find everyone else annoying.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


> That’s why I only listen to Stevie T at this point.
> 
> I find everyone else annoying.



......I need everyone to just read that comment...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ......I need everyone to just read that comment...



Better than preferring Sex Offender Registry Eyes.


----------



## oniduder

so glenn is a total cunt is not a unpopular opinion, nuff said


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Better than preferring Sex Offender Registry Eyes.


HA! Good point. I guess I'd take spastic tard over Roofie McRapeface


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

What really annoying is that Glenn and a bunch of others are all working together and all trying to sell each other's shit. So you get 5 or so videos about the exact same thing and it's always them interviewing each other or some shit trying to sell something the other has. I understand people have to make money but it comes off as disingenuous if they're all so amazed by a product that benefits them. They don't even bother to space out these ad videos, you just get all of them at once so it's almost like spamming youtube with the same thing.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> What really annoying is that Glenn and a bunch of others are all working together and all trying to sell each other's shit. So you get 5 or so videos about the exact same thing and it's always them interviewing each other or some shit trying to sell something the other has. I understand people have to make money but it comes off as disingenuous if they're all so amazed by a product that benefits them. They don't even bother to space out these ad videos, you just get all of them at ones so it's almost like spamming youtube with the same thing.



Also don't make a series called "Fearless Gear Reviews" when you're talking shit about stuff people already hate.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Also don't make a series called "Fearless Gear Reviews" when you're talking shit about stuff people already hate.



And the shit he likes, like Rev amps and Solar guitars, is shit that's known for being good quality anyways. It's either stuff of people he's friends with, stuff that's a no brainer, or shit that nobody likes. None of it is really surprising or enlightening.

I like Glenn and all and a lot of stuff he's on point with but his reviews are always suspicious as fuck.


----------



## Mathemagician

I just can’t stand a 56 year old man yelling at me when I expected a gear video. Like bro, don’t you have a Roth 401k to do at the business factory?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And the shit he likes, like Rev amps and Solar guitars, is shit that's known for being good quality anyways. It's either stuff of people he's friends with, stuff that's a no brainer, or shit that nobody likes. None of it is really surprising or enlightening.
> 
> I like Glenn and all and a lot of stuff he's on point with but his reviews are always suspicious as fuck.



The dude stanned Legator REALLY hard so I really can't take his opinions on gear seriously.


----------



## rokket2005

Whenever a company sends out review units for anything, be that guitars and amps or videogames or vacuum cleaners they have a specified embargo date that reviewers can't break. If they do they basically get struck by the company and don't get review products anymore. That's why you get the same videos going up all at the same time by 10 different channels, cause they upload when the embargo is up.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Also don't make a series called "Fearless Gear Reviews" when you're talking shit about stuff people already hate.


Perhaps they meant "Feckless" (weak, useless) instead?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

rokket2005 said:


> Whenever a company sends out review units for anything, be that guitars and amps or videogames or vacuum cleaners they have a specified embargo date that reviewers can't break. If they do they basically get struck by the company and don't get review products anymore. That's why you get the same videos going up all at the same time by 10 different channels, cause they upload when the embargo is up.



I'd be fine with them all reviewing ESP, or Peavey or something like that. But all of them "reviewing" each other's shit and blatantly trying to seem like it's the best thing ever..like always trying to sell each other's online courses and shit...that's what's annoying. So it's just a bunch of people all saying the exact same thing, having NO different views and all trying to sell one another's garbage.


----------



## laxu

SSK0909 said:


> Glenn is a giant troll, as I also stated when posting the video.
> But I have yet to see anyone post any form of counter argument. Theres not much evidence in people saying "it majes a huge difference in my amps!" Without having recordings to back it up.
> 
> And I do agree with him that we tend to hear a bigger difference than there actually is, to justify a purchase. Thats common human behaviour.
> 
> Do tubes change the amp feel? Maybe. But feel is a non measurable voodoo thing we make up in our own head. And even if they do, theres still no evidence they make a big impact on the actual sound of an amp.
> 
> But theres something classic guitarist about obsessing over stupid minor details like tubes, tonewoods, pickups etc instead of just playing more with our amp eq, which is often a far more powerfull tone shaping tool than all the others combined. Not one thing in the chain will have as dramatic of an effect on my tone as diming one of the eq controls on the amp



I have a decent pile of preamp tubes made in the past 10-15 years, most of them are 12AX7/ECC83 from various makers and vendors. There are some that don’t make much of a difference (or don’t deviate from the baseline performance) and others that do. My Bogner Goldfinger seems far more sensitive to tube changes than my Victory VC35. I can easily tell a difference swapping V1 and V2 in the amp but there are a lot of combinations that I like. Even the factory assortment uses 3 different vendors’ tubes.

Changing tubes is never going to be as big a difference as using a different speaker, different guitar or throwing some pedals in front. It’s fine tuning at best.


----------



## rokket2005

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'd be fine with them all reviewing ESP, or Peavey or something like that. But all of them "reviewing" each other's shit and blatantly trying to seem like it's the best thing ever..like always trying to sell each other's online courses and shit...that's what's annoying. So it's just a bunch of people all saying the exact same thing, having NO different views and all trying to sell one another's garbage.



I don't disagree, and I've probably stated earlier in this thread that I don't think there is any channel in the upper echelon of the guitar youtube triumvirate that is worth watching. There has been a trickle down growth from Chappers/Andertons and Fluff into this surrounding community that somehow has a stranglehold on the casual guitar market. Gear sells growth far better than information does, especially when you have an in with a bigger channel. If you're a smaller channel hocking gear good luck cause unless someone is looking for that particular piece they won't find you. Your video is just eaten up by the bigger guys. There are thousands of lesson channels out there for every instrument and you've heard of maybe 3-4 of them, because that's not what sells on the platform.


----------



## odibrom

There's a German dude that made a Power amp tube swapping video and posted it at the Guitar Summit 2020. One can really hear a difference between them, but it's in little more this, little less that kind of thing... and he made it with a real cab and 2 mics!... cool video, but a little annoying with his rocking back and forward like a pendulum...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

odibrom said:


> There's a German dude that made a Power amp tube swapping video and posted it at the Guitar Summit 2020. One can really hear a difference between them, but it's in little more this, little less that kind of thing... and he made it with a real cab and 2 mics!... cool video, but a little annoying with his rocking back and forward like a pendulum...




I like Kohle..he's definitely one of the less annoying music Youtubers. It's also nice that his work doesn't sound crappy..because there are a lot of studio youtubers where you go listen to work they've done and it's less than inspiring.


----------



## BenjaminW

gnoll said:


> Tubes do make a difference, but yes, it's not THAT big.
> 
> I'm obsessive enough to still sort of think about it, but I don't worry about tubes as much as I do speakers and cabs for example...
> 
> I think
> 1) mic and mic technique
> 2) speaker
> 3) cab, amp, guitar, pedals
> 4) tubes...? and whatever else that kinda makes a difference


I was watching a video on a 6L6 5150 vs an EL34 5150, and there honestly isn't that much of a difference to my ears. Glenn either is just tripping hard again or he has some magic power we don't know about.


----------



## odibrom

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I like Kohle..he's definitely one of the less annoying music Youtubers. It's also nice that his work doesn't sound crappy..because there are a lot of studio youtubers where you go listen to work they've done and it's less than inspiring.



yeah, I liked that video also, but that rocking back and forward of him was a lot distracting, to me at least...


----------



## BornToLooze

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Be that as it may...groups and forums are chock full of people thinking the Super Boutique 5000 pedal is gonna revolutionize their tone and that putting 6L6s in their Fender Tweed is gonna turn it into a Mesa Triple Rec and that the reason they can't get a good tone is they don't have the right strings and other such nonsense.



That's why I don't look at gear stuff anymore. I started having a lot more fun playing guitar when I quit giving a shit about specs and went back to just buying shit because it's cool. Hell, one of my best sounding guitars I don't even know what kind of pickups it has, other than they say Seymour Duncan.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BornToLooze said:


> That's why I don't look at gear stuff anymore. I started having a lot more fun playing guitar when I quit giving a shit about specs and went back to just buying shit because it's cool. Hell, one of my best sounding guitars I don't even know what kind of pickups it has, other than they say Seymour Duncan.



I like gear reviews mainly to know what's out there..but honestly I don't really get the urge to buy a bunch of shit anymore. Last thing I bought was a set of Seymour Duncan Black Winters...but that was because my former pickups needed a replacement so I figured I'd try them out. I have a 2nd guitar with stock pickups..and they're gonna stay stock. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'm not likely to buy another set of new pickups unless I have to


----------



## Matt08642

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I like gear reviews mainly to know what's out there..but honestly I don't really get the urge to buy a bunch of shit anymore. Last thing I bought was a set of Seymour Duncan Black Winters...but that was because my former pickups needed a replacement so I figured I'd try them out. I have a 2nd guitar with stock pickups..and they're gonna stay stock. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I'm not likely to buy another set of new pickups unless I have to



The more I actually play, the less gear I feel I need. I used to have like 10 pedals hooked up no matter what, now my signal path is guitar > tuner > amp with EQ in the loop 99% of the time

Long ago I realized every "review" channel is just me subjecting myself to commercials. Everything is good, every pedal is a 9/10 (while the cost goes up and up and up), every guitar has the "best neck" and "most sustain". Every pickup is good for "Big chords" etc etc etc. It's all bullshit lmao


----------



## BornToLooze

Matt08642 said:


> The more I actually play, the less gear I feel I need. I used to have like 10 pedals hooked up no matter what, now my signal path is guitar > tuner > amp with EQ in the loop 99% of the time



It's not even gear I need, it's the stuff my heroes use, like this guitar




I destroyed my first guitar after falling in love with it watching Jake E Lee videos, so why the hell not buy one. 

Really, the only new piece of gear I can think of that I want, is one of those loadbox things where I can run a head into an interface and finally get a Plexi or JMP.


----------



## Matt08642

BornToLooze said:


> It's not even gear I need, it's the stuff my heroes use, like this guitar
> 
> View attachment 87506
> 
> 
> I destroyed my first guitar after falling in love with it watching Jake E Lee videos, so why the hell not buy one.
> 
> Really, the only new piece of gear I can think of that I want, is one of those loadbox things where I can run a head into an interface and finally get a Plexi or JMP.



That's a cool ass guitar though and is at least somewhat unique in appointments. Getting a loadbox was one of the best choices I've made in the past few years - Instead of dumping my money in to pedals I won't use, I spent a few hundred and can play whatever amp I want now through headphones/much more reasonable volumes for apartment life, plus recording it is 1000x easier. I highly suggest it!


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Matt08642 said:


> The more I actually play, the less gear I feel I need. I used to have like 10 pedals hooked up no matter what, now my signal path is guitar > tuner > amp with EQ in the loop 99% of the time
> 
> Long ago I realized every "review" channel is just me subjecting myself to commercials. Everything is good, every pedal is a 9/10 (while the cost goes up and up and up), every guitar has the "best neck" and "most sustain". Every pickup is good for "Big chords" etc etc etc. It's all bullshit lmao



Yeah I've gotten a lot simpler. Instead of mega gain zillion channel amps and a million pedals and all that shit I'm happy with a Marshall style amp, a V30 4x12, a boost, a chorus, and my guitar. I don't need much else.


----------



## Matt08642

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah I've gotten a lot simpler. Instead of mega gain zillion channel amps and a million pedals and all that shit I'm happy with a Marshall style amp, a V30 4x12, a boost, a chorus, and my guitar. I don't need much else.



Chorus is the one thing I'd like to pick up as a treat to myself after selling some other pedals I don't use (Why did I think I needed a flanger?). Give me that cheesy 80s tone all day please.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Matt08642 said:


> Chorus is the one thing I'd like to pick up as a treat to myself after selling some other pedals I don't use (Why did I think I needed a flanger?). Give me that cheesy 80s tone all day please.


That's what I'm on. Single coil through high gain Marshall drenched in chorus is pretty much my sound. 80s guitar tones in 90s industrial metal is essentially where I live


----------



## BornToLooze

Matt08642 said:


> Chorus is the one thing I'd like to pick up as a treat to myself after selling some other pedals I don't use (Why did I think I needed a flanger?). Give me that cheesy 80s tone all day please.



I've always wanted one of the MXR Stereo Choruses because of Randy Rhoads, but I'm sure it would just wind up sitting in the same cubby hole with the rest of my pedals, because the only pedal I really use is a Boss overdrive with my Peavey Deuce and most of the time I just run straight into it, just like everything else.

I used to use a flanger to get kinda close enough to EVH's phase 90 sound, but I guess I lost it in a move, because I'll be damned if I can find it anymore.


----------



## Matt08642

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> That's what I'm on. Single coil through high gain Marshall drenched in chorus is pretty much my sound. 80s guitar tones in 90s industrial metal is essentially where I live



Well, I just bought and immediately cancelled my order for a Keeley Dyno my Roto. What chorus do you use?


----------



## gnoll

odibrom said:


> There's a German dude that made a Power amp tube swapping video and posted it at the Guitar Summit 2020. One can really hear a difference between them, but it's in little more this, little less that kind of thing... and he made it with a real cab and 2 mics!... cool video, but a little annoying with his rocking back and forward like a pendulum...






DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I like Kohle..he's definitely one of the less annoying music Youtubers. It's also nice that his work doesn't sound crappy..because there are a lot of studio youtubers where you go listen to work they've done and it's less than inspiring.



I think that guy has "good" content but my issue with it is it all seems like a quest to sound as generic as humanly possible. It's always about "that modern metal sound" and how to sound like everybody else basically. And pretty much every youtuber is like that.

I seriously watch youtube tutorials on metal production just to know what NOT to do.

I'm so fucking tired of everything having the same shitty sound. I used to be happy because it seemed so easy to get a good metal tone. All I need is a 5150, a v30 cab, and an sm57? All I need is a bass di and process it according to a youtube video? All I need is to process my snare according to a youtube video? Yay, it's so easy.

BUT WAIT. I fucking hate those sounds. I hate 5150s, I hate v30s, I hate sm57s, I hate that stupid scooped clanky bass tone, I hate those stupid "fat" snares, I hate scooped clicky kick drums, I fucking hate it all so fucking much.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Matt08642 said:


> Well, I just bought and immediately cancelled my order for a Keeley Dyno my Roto. What chorus do you use?


I discovered my love for chorus with the Magic Switch plugin. I haven't attempted to find a hardware equivalent but I'm planning on getting a Helix for live situations and I'm sure there's a decent chorus in there somewhere.

The Magic Switch is loosely based on the Juno 60 synth analog chorus effect..so if I were looking for a hardware version I'd probably try the TC Electronics June 60 pedal.


----------



## Shask

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I discovered my love for chorus with the Magic Switch plugin. I haven't attempted to find a hardware equivalent but I'm planning on getting a Helix for live situations and I'm sure there's a decent chorus in there somewhere.
> 
> The Magic Switch is loosely based on the Juno 60 synth analog chorus effect..so if I were looking for a hardware version I'd probably try the TC Electronics June 60 pedal.


I have always loved Chorus, and have always been the minority oddball, lol.

I probably have 15 different Chorus pedals and rack units. After all the analog love in the world, I have found I prefer digital Chorus. 1988-1993, the golden age of digital Chorus, lol.


----------



## Emperoff

gnoll said:


> I think that guy has "good" content but my issue with it is it all seems like a quest to sound as generic as humanly possible. It's always about "that modern metal sound" and how to sound like everybody else basically. And pretty much every youtuber is like that.
> 
> I seriously watch youtube tutorials on metal production just to know what NOT to do.
> 
> I'm so fucking tired of everything having the same shitty sound. I used to be happy because it seemed so easy to get a good metal tone. All I need is a 5150, a v30 cab, and an sm57? All I need is a bass di and process it according to a youtube video? All I need is to process my snare according to a youtube video? Yay, it's so easy.
> 
> BUT WAIT. I fucking hate those sounds. I hate 5150s, I hate v30s, I hate sm57s, I hate that stupid scooped clanky bass tone, I hate those stupid "fat" snares, I hate scooped clicky kick drums, I fucking hate it all so fucking much.





You know, the other day I was watching this video:


After hearing the first one I was like: "Yep. The exact sound everybody uses". Then when the last one came along I was like, "Oh man, this sounds SO good". So much great tones of the 00s instantly came to mind. I'd probably tone down the presence a bit, but that's it. You just can't beat a boosted recto.

Everyone sounds the same nowadays because people search for their sound in others opinions instead to create their own.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Matt08642 said:


> Well, I just bought and immediately cancelled my order for a Keeley Dyno my Roto. What chorus do you use?



Marshalls...single coil..chorus..lynchback speakers. I dig it.:

Example

The magic switch works really well for modern tones too:

Example


----------



## Shask

Matt08642 said:


> Well, I just bought and immediately cancelled my order for a Keeley Dyno my Roto. What chorus do you use?


I have tons of Chorus units, but if I could only keep one pedal, it would probably be the Digitech Hardwire CR-7. It has modes for the clear, non-wavy, multi-voice 90's style Chorus, and other modes for the underwater thick wavy style Chorus, ala, Come as You Are.

I also really like the Source Audio Gemini. It is highly programmable. However, I prefer to mix it with a Digitech Luxe, as it doesn't have much detune on its own. The sound of the late 80's is basically a pitch detune combined with a Chorus.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

As another chorus fan, my favorite choruses are:

Rack: Intellifex
Mono stompbox: EHX Small Clone or Neo Clone
Stereo Stompbox: Ibanez/Maxon CS9/BC9

My current pedalboard chorus is a Maxon BC01, which is a Maxon/Ibanez BC9 Bi-Mode Chorus in a different (even heavier) housing. It's cool because you can have two different sounding choruses running at once.

Honestly the reason I got an Ibanez/Maxon chorus was because I loved the sound of Gary Moore's chorusy cleans, and I found out he used Ibanez chorus pedals for most of the 90s and 2000s.


----------



## Shask

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> As another chorus fan, my favorite choruses are:
> 
> Rack: Intellifex
> Mono stompbox: EHX Small Clone or Neo Clone
> Stereo Stompbox: Ibanez/Maxon CS9/BC9
> 
> My current pedalboard chorus is a Maxon BC01, which is a Maxon/Ibanez BC9 Bi-Mode Chorus in a different (even heavier) housing. It's cool because you can have two different sounding choruses running at once.
> 
> Honestly the reason I got an Ibanez/Maxon chorus was because I loved the sound of Gary Moore's chorusy cleans, and I found out he used Ibanez chorus pedals for most of the 90s and 2000s.


I like the Intellifex for the clear 90's style Chorus, but I think I prefer the Replifex for the late 80's thick watery Chorus. Mainly because it can combine pitch detune and Chorus, and the Intellifex can't.

The Small Clone is pretty much the king of watery Choruses. I don't think I have ever tried the Ibanez Chorus pedals. They always kind of sounded like a brighter CE-2 style from videos I have watched.

The TC Third Dimension is also pretty cool. It is a Boss DC-2 clone.


----------



## Emperoff

Relic guitars are the stupidest thing on earth.


----------



## odibrom

Emperoff said:


> Relic guitars are the stupidest thing on earth.



They surely are, but if sells, they'll still be building them... people need a piece of history with them, so they feel special I think, relic guitars are a simulacrum of such... kind of a memorabilia thing eventually... dum asses...


----------



## TedEH

The only thing I kinda like about "relic" guitars is that I don't feel bad when they take more wear. Was that ding part of the original finish? Did I scratch it there? Who knows? Who cares.


----------



## WarMachine

Shask said:


> I have always loved Chorus, and have always been the minority oddball, lol.
> 
> I probably have 15 different Chorus pedals and rack units. After all the analog love in the world, I have found I prefer digital Chorus. 1988-1993, the golden age of digital Chorus, lol.


Same. IMO the best sounding Chorus and Delays have been digital. At least to me. For whatever reason, any analog Chorus or Delays i've tried have always seemed "cheaper" sounding if that makes sense. Like as in too subtle to notice enough to justify the "real feel", several hundred dollars more to get said feel.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

WarMachine said:


> Same. IMO the best sounding Chorus and Delays have been digital. At least to me. For whatever reason, any analog Chorus or Delays i've tried have always seemed "cheaper" sounding if that makes sense. Like as in too subtle to notice enough to justify the "real feel", several hundred dollars more to get said feel.



What choruses have you tried? I'm not a fan of Boss chorus pedals because they tended to always sound too subtle, be it digital or analog. And one of the worst choruses I've owned was a TC Corona Chorus. Sounded like it wanted to be a flanger, but failed too hard.

Like I said, my 2 favorite chorus pedals are the Ibanez CS9/BC9, and the EHX Small Clone. Far from subtle. The only issue with the Small Clone is they don't have an "official" stereo version.


----------



## WarMachine

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> What choruses have you tried? I'm not a fan of Boss chorus pedals because they tended to always sound too subtle, be it digital or analog. And one of the worst choruses I've owned was a TC Corona Chorus. Sounded like it wanted to be a flanger, but failed too hard.
> 
> Like I said, my 2 favorite chorus pedals are the Ibanez CS9/BC9, and the EHX Small Clone. Far from subtle. The only issue with the Small Clone is they don't have an "official" stereo version.


I started out with a Boss Super Chorus, then moved on to a Chorus Ensemble. That one has been and still is my favorite. I had a Dunlop Stereo Chorus, Black Label Chorus and Micro Chorus. Of them i preferred the Micro believe it or not. I haven't tried tons of them, but of the bunch my go to for many many years was the Chorus Ensemble. I got on better with the chorus pedals in general than the delays though. And i haven't tried a ton of those either. Just two lol. The Boss DD5 and the MXR Carbon Copy. The DD5 to me was soooo much better sounding and could go from zero to a million just with the twist of a knob. The Carbon Copy seemed like it hit the ceiling from the get go, even if i cranked everything to the max on it.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I got the DD5 and love it to bits, but also am getting the DD7 because it's supposed to sound warmer. I got the DD5 for specifically in front of an amp because it's so bright.

I never tried the CE5. I just know the CE2 I tried was supposed to be the holy grail and it... wasn't.  I liked the MXR Analog Chorus a lot too, but apparnetly it can kill the high end. Heard some demos and I hear the tone suck. 

I'm just perfectly happy with my CS9/BC01. It's so lush and warm and does what I want no issues.


----------



## Emperoff

The Boss DM2W is awesome. The "new" mode is far more useable than the original and it still sounds fucking great. I've yet to try a digital delay that sounds as good. It's a one trick pony, though.



odibrom said:


> They surely are, but if sells, they'll still be building them... people need a piece of history with them, so they feel special I think, relic guitars are a simulacrum of such... kind of a memorabilia thing eventually... dum asses...



Stupidity sells. That's not new. Just check who are the top dogs on YouTube.


----------



## odibrom

TedEH said:


> The only thing I kinda like about "relic" guitars is that I don't feel bad when they take more wear. Was that ding part of the original finish? Did I scratch it there? Who knows? Who cares.


Buying used guitars generaly already brings some blemishes... or relics... hehehe... and are cheaper than new ones.


----------



## Shask

WarMachine said:


> I started out with a Boss Super Chorus, then moved on to a Chorus Ensemble. That one has been and still is my favorite. I had a Dunlop Stereo Chorus, Black Label Chorus and Micro Chorus. Of them i preferred the Micro believe it or not. I haven't tried tons of them, but of the bunch my go to for many many years was the Chorus Ensemble. I got on better with the chorus pedals in general than the delays though. And i haven't tried a ton of those either. Just two lol. The Boss DD5 and the MXR Carbon Copy. The DD5 to me was soooo much better sounding and could go from zero to a million just with the twist of a knob. The Carbon Copy seemed like it hit the ceiling from the get go, even if i cranked everything to the max on it.


I like some analog Choruses also, but they are generally more wavy, and more pitch bendy, vibratoy, etc.... I also like analog Flangers that make good Choruses, such as the Boss BF-2.


----------



## Shask

Emperoff said:


> The Boss DM2W is awesome. The "new" mode is far more useable than the original and it still sounds fucking great. I've yet to try a digital delay that sounds as good. It's a one trick pony, though.
> 
> 
> 
> Stupidity sells. That's not new. Just check who are the top dogs on YouTube.


The Boss DC models are awesome sounding, I just wish they had a mix knob. I don't have one, but have a TC Third Dimension that is a cheaper clone.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

I like chorus units though I have different pedals for different purposes. I started with the CE5 and was a great all round pedal that covered a wide scope (awesome for those glassy cleans), though I bought a CH1 for something more subtle, just to thicken leads a la what Satch does on Crystal Planet. One I would grab if I didn't want the chorus to sound too obnoxious. For the warmer analog sounds I use the Providence Anadime, which is great if I want that old CE2 sound. For the Dimension choruses, I have the FTT Tri Avatar, which is a monster of a unit and it's up there with some of the best rackmount gear.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Shask said:


> I like some analog Choruses also, but they are generally more wavy, and more pitch bendy, vibratoy, etc.... I also like analog Flangers that make good Choruses, such as the Boss BF-2.



My MXR 117 EVH chorus can do a good chorus when set up right as well.


----------



## BenjaminW

Legendary Tones Lynch Mod > Hot Mod V2.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BenjaminW said:


> Legendary Tones Lynch Mod > Hot Mod V2.



Whats the difference between the two?


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Just pulled the trigger on the TC Electronics June 60 Chorus pedal. Pretty straight forward, no knobs simple. Not for everyone, but I have always loved the #1 setting on all of the Juno synths for the chorus just as it is. Will be pairing it with my new Tech 21 YYZ pedal in a small bass pedalboard.


----------



## Matt08642

Emperoff said:


> The Boss DM2W is awesome. The "new" mode is far more useable than the original and it still sounds fucking great. I've yet to try a digital delay that sounds as good. It's a one trick pony, though.



I love my DM-2W! Used to use a DD7 till it crapped out (the delay no longer corresponds to the setting on the dial (800ms has 50ms delay, hold has 3200ms, etc, makes no sense) so I bought the DM-2W on a whim and wouldn't go back even if the DD7 did work. I love how warm the repeats are, and the new mode offers just enough delay for me at the longest repeat setting.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I wish the DM2W had a tap tempo vs expression pedal out, but I guess it would require some digital circuitry.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Whats the difference between the two?


Lynch has a gain knob and a switch that from what I remember acts like a resonance knob, Hot Mod is a switch that boosts the gain.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> My MXR 117 EVH chorus can do a good chorus when set up right as well.


*Flanger


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

BenjaminW said:


> Lynch has a gain knob and a switch that from what I remember acts like a resonance knob, Hot Mod is a switch that boosts the gain.


I wonder how safe those things are for your 3 tubers.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

I don't give a shit if I look like a 13 year old at a talent show, I like massive guitars that weigh a ton and I'm keeping my strap about mid torso. This looks fucking stupid and will probably give me back problems but it's comfy as hell.


----------



## Mathemagician

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I discovered my love for chorus with the Magic Switch plugin. I haven't attempted to find a hardware equivalent but I'm planning on getting a Helix for live situations and I'm sure there's a decent chorus in there somewhere.
> 
> The Magic Switch is loosely based on the Juno 60 synth analog chorus effect..so if I were looking for a hardware version I'd probably try the TC Electronics June 60 pedal.





Shask said:


> I have always loved Chorus, and have always been the minority oddball, lol.
> 
> I probably have 15 different Chorus pedals and rack units. After all the analog love in the world, I have found I prefer digital Chorus. 1988-1993, the golden age of digital Chorus, lol.





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> As another chorus fan, my favorite choruses are:
> 
> Rack: Intellifex
> Mono stompbox: EHX Small Clone or Neo Clone
> Stereo Stompbox: Ibanez/Maxon CS9/BC9
> 
> My current pedalboard chorus is a Maxon BC01, which is a Maxon/Ibanez BC9 Bi-Mode Chorus in a different (even heavier) housing. It's cool because you can have two different sounding choruses running at once.
> 
> Honestly the reason I got an Ibanez/Maxon chorus was because I loved the sound of Gary Moore's chorusy cleans, and I found out he used Ibanez chorus pedals for most of the 90s and 2000s.



Had no idea chorus wasn’t popular. To me a tiny bit of chorus on a clean channel makes clean parts sound even better. Just a tad, sprinkle to taste. Or go nuts I’m not your dad. 

Now reverb? What the FUCK? Everyone always immediately goes to drown any amp or setting in reverb to “make it sound bigger” especially when playing with gain for some reason. And I’m like “No it doesn’t. It just sounds worse, and I can’t hear what’s being played. Stop covering for your sloppy playing!” 

Tl;dr - Chorus good. Reverb is auto tune for bad playing.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Chorus + high gain = happy me


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Who the fuck puts reverb on high gain rhythm stuff? I thought we jerked it to clarity and tightness. Reverb just sounds terrible on anything with more than blues level drive.


----------



## Demiurge

^LOL, what about Devin Townsend? Just pulled up some tracks from SYL's City. Drenched in reverb, still awesome. Don't use too much effects to where you're under-cutting the sound _you_ want, but come on. Anti-reverb take is almost as bad as the anti-capo take.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Any effect works if it fits your music. For every person screaming it can't be done, there's someone doing that exact thing and making it work.


----------



## Emperoff

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Who the fuck puts reverb on high gain rhythm stuff? I thought we jerked it to clarity and tightness. Reverb just sounds terrible on anything with more than blues level drive.


Rabea does. Devin Townsend as well.


----------



## gnoll

Reverb is the shit. Best effect there is.


----------



## budda

Pro tip: throw a lil chorus on you reverb tails.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Emperoff said:


> Rabea does. Devin Townsend as well.


That would explain it. I don't really care much for either of their sounds, especially Rabea. Insane respect for their playing and what they do but I don't follow either of them.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Also Devin's reverb is so unique sounding that its practically it's own sound.


----------



## TedEH

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Who the fuck puts reverb on high gain rhythm stuff?


I think you'd be surprised. IMO any guitar sound is at it's best when it sounds like it lives in a space, and doesn't just sound like your head is sandwiched between two speaker grills. I put at least a small amount of reverb/delay on pretty much everything (recorded, live is a different story). It doesn't need to be Devin-Townsend-level drowning in effects, but 1000% dry doesn't sound good to me most of the time. Subtlety goes a long way.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I use reverb on my setup because without, it loses realness. So suck it, reverb haters.


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Chorus + high gain = happy me


This is the way.


----------



## Thaeon

Mathemagician said:


> Had no idea chorus wasn’t popular. To me a tiny bit of chorus on a clean channel makes clean parts sound even better. Just a tad, sprinkle to taste. Or go nuts I’m not your dad.
> 
> Now reverb? What the FUCK? Everyone always immediately goes to drown any amp or setting in reverb to “make it sound bigger” especially when playing with gain for some reason. And I’m like “No it doesn’t. It just sounds worse, and I can’t hear what’s being played. Stop covering for your sloppy playing!”
> 
> Tl;dr - Chorus good. Reverb is auto tune for bad playing.



Nothing but facts here. A tiny bit of verb on leads or volume swells for synthy effect is good. Drenched in verb is just washy and indistinct.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Chorus + high gain = happy me





TedEH said:


> I think you'd be surprised. IMO any guitar sound is at it's best when it sounds like it lives in a space, and doesn't just sound like your head is sandwiched between two speaker grills. I put at least a small amount of reverb/delay on pretty much everything (recorded, live is a different story). It doesn't need to be Devin-Townsend-level drowning in effects, but 1000% dry doesn't sound good to me most of the time. Subtlety goes a long way.



I'll put just a tiny bit of verb in the master channel to tie a whole mix together so that it sounds like all the instruments are occupying the same space. Just a touch though. Turn it up till you can just barely hear it then turn it back down just a hair.


----------



## Mathemagician

I can accept a tad of the ‘verb. Especially with cleans and a tad of chorus. 

But I won’t knock a well-placed smidge on the ‘ole gain train. (What I assume sound engineers talk like.)


----------



## Emperoff

TheBolivianSniper said:


> That would explain it. I don't really care much for either of their sounds, especially Rabea. Insane respect for their playing and what they do but I don't follow either of them.



Rabea has my respect for being one of the few modern metal youtubers pulling out fat metal tones that don't sound like an amplified duck (with the exception of the latest Quad Cortex video he made. Yuck).

You may not like what he does, but he has a wall of sound thing going on that instantly sounds like him.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Emperoff said:


> Rabea has my respect for being one of the few modern metal youtubers pulling out fat metal tones that don't sound like an amplified duck (with the exception of the latest Quad Cortex video he made. Yuck).
> 
> You may not like what he does, but he has a wall of sound thing going on that instantly sounds like him.



As much as I agree with the duck thing and everyone's thin quacky tones....I fear I'm in danger of running into that sound sometimes, but only because I loves me a good single coil tone, Marshall amps, and a lot of mids. My playing style keeps that from getting too out of hand, I think.


----------



## Shask

I was never into Reverb for years, but got into it the last year or 2. I like just a touch to give the sound some space, especially at lower home volumes. Helps it sound bigger than it really is. I think it is best with high quality subtle reverb though, like an Axe-FX or Lexicon.


----------



## gnoll

Things are WAY too dry these days.

Subtle reverb?? No no, lots of it!!

People need to stop compressing so much and start adding some reverb. Seriously!!


----------



## Necky379

Digs out his reverb pedal to see what the fuss is all about


----------



## maggotspawn

Modelers sound as good as tube amps. There, I said it.


----------



## Mathemagician

maggotspawn said:


> Modelers sound as good as tube amps. There, I said it.



Good ones do. We been here already.

Tapping + Chorus + A tiny smidge of reverb = how to sound like a WAY better player than anyone your friends have heard of. Lmao. Cheatcodes for a quick laugh. 

And if you do it slowly everything sounds so pretty your partner will think it’s as good as whatever heartthrob with an acoustic is cool right now. Not that there is anything wrong with bumping some songs from acoustic heartthrobs.


----------



## BenjaminW

Not sure what the consensus is here on these amps are, but Blackstar Silverlines sound pretty damn good for their price.

And here I go again bitching about amps I could've owned instead of my 800, not that it's a bad amp or anything.


----------



## StevenC

BenjaminW said:


> Not sure what the consensus is here on these amps are, but Blackstar Silverlines sound pretty damn good for their price.
> 
> And here I go again bitching about amps I could've owned instead of my 800, not that it's a bad amp or anything.


That's how I felt for the 8 years when I only had a Marshall. It fades when you get something better and can just appreciate it for what it can do, not what you want to do.


----------



## Matt08642

>Reverb bad on high gain

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh 

Sounds glorious to me


----------



## Mathemagician

Matt08642 said:


> >Reverb bad on high gain
> 
> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> Sounds glorious to me




Most of us can’t be Eddie on his worst day with his guitar on backwards.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Matt08642 said:


> >Reverb bad on high gain
> 
> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
> 
> Sounds glorious to me



Exactly. High gain with reverb haters can suck it hard.


----------



## Necky379

So fucking awesome


----------



## gunch

Reverb rules


----------



## WarMachine

Well fuck. I was reading here then the chorus and reverb discussion comes up. Now I gotsta go and do some recording with some Zakk Wylde esque chorus shit going.

Oh, and I mean, OLD Zakk vibes in the early Ozzy days. Not where it is now...


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

How have I managed to start massive fights in 2 threads in a single day


----------



## odibrom

TheBolivianSniper said:


> How have I managed to start massive fights in 2 threads in a single day


Don't worry, be happy... in a way, it made people comunicate with each other. Lets hope they learnt something along the way...?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

odibrom said:


> Don't worry, be happy... in a way, it made people comunicate with each other. Lets hope they learnt something along the way...?


I hate communicating with people


----------



## yan12

I use reverb as just another tool to refine my sound. I think the situation dictates what is needed.

Recording...all bets are off. Whatever makes your tone inspiring to you as the player is key. Playing live as one guitar is different than if you are locked in with another guitarist. Type of music, etc. Some instrumental music needs lots of effects to convey the message. I like it all.

The EVH clip is one I use to showcase power amp transformer saturation. That amount of reverb sounds very different to me if the power amp (output section) sits on say 3 for volume. The sweetness on the top end of that tone is a pushed transformer with guitar volume opened up, and in much of that track he has his guitar volume at roughly 50%...when he opens it up for some fills and solo I tend to hear that sweetness a bit more. So I look at it as a curve of the effect more pronounced at lower volumes and more subtle and sweet as the volume from the power amp gets pushed.

I always try to determine how an effect will work with the volume at which I am playing. I don't do modelers and although they have come a long way and have so many useable benefits, when it comes to cutting a track or playing live, I still run tubes and 4x12 cabs. But I will say as a solo guitarist in a blues setting, I must have some of the 'verb.


----------



## USMarine75

gunch said:


> Reverb rules



Exactly.

I use Reverb all the time... to buy my Chorus pedals.

#dadjoke


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

USMarine75 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> I use Reverb all the time... to buy my Chorus pedals.
> 
> #dadjoke


ZINGER!


----------



## BenjaminW

Reverb + high gain + chorus + delay = Best tone ever.


----------



## Thaeon

BenjaminW said:


> Reverb + high gain + chorus + delay = Best tone ever.



With tone like this, who needs a band? Or to even change chords?


----------



## Decimater1

Not really a big fan of extended range guitars that have the " minimalist shape" AKA Strandbergs and oher headless options.

I like it to feel heavy and look heavy....to sound heavy. I want to feel that resonance. 

Headless 6? oh yeah.. 7s and 8s? Hard Pass.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Decimater1 said:


> Not really a big fan of extended range guitars AKA Strandbergs and other options.
> 
> I like it to not sound like modern bullshit.
> 
> s 6? oh yeah.. 7s and 8s? Hard Pass.



Fixed for accuracy


----------



## Decimater1

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Fixed for accuracy



You got it man. Thanks


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Decimater1 said:


> You got it man. Thanks


Anytime. <3


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BenjaminW said:


> Reverb + high gain + chorus + delay = Best tone ever.



I made a patch on my POD Go just so I can do this. 

Also this is why early Zakk is the superior Zakk.


----------



## BenjaminW

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I made a patch on my POD Go just so I can do this.
> 
> Also this is why early Zakk is the superior Zakk.



No More Tears tone-wise is too mushy for my ears. But early Zakk still slaps.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

THIS sound was amazing to me when I was younger


Forgive ol' Vince Meal and his creative singing..but Mick Mars has recently been a huge influence. His studio tones sound nothing like his live sound. His live sound is the good shit.


These are why chorus makes me so happy


----------



## BenjaminW

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Forgive ol' Vince Meal and his creative singing..but Mick Mars has recently been a huge influence. His studio tones sound nothing like his live sound. His live sound is the good shit.


This sound is pretty good at the beginning.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BenjaminW said:


> This sound is pretty good at the beginning.



THAT! I heard that a little while ago and I was like "THAT'S MY GUITAR TONE! HE'S USING MINE!!!"


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Much love for Mick Mars. I think he gets robbed a lot for the stupidity of everyone else in the band but he can play 100%. Dr Feelgood is a clinic on how to play 80s hard rock/glam.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Much love for Mick Mars. I think he gets robbed a lot for the stupidity of everyone else in the band but he can play 100%. Dr Feelgood is a clinic on how to play 80s hard rock/glam.


Truth. He's literally the only good thing about that band.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Mick Mars' tone sucked until he learned about the chorus effect (see: Dr. Feelgood, self-titled album).

EDIT: Iiii'm not linking this video.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Mick Mars' tone sucked until he learned about the chorus effect (see: Dr. Feelgood, self-titled album).
> 
> EDIT: Iiii'm not linking this video.


His studio tone is horrible but I think it's mainly because I only really listened to Motley Crue to hear "KEESTAH MAH HA!!" because everyone was laughing at Vince. That's when I discovered Mick's guitar tone. I downloaded their discography to listen and every single album is underwhelming. Live all the songs sound great..in the studio? Meh


----------



## USMarine75




----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

USMarine75 said:


>




It's still mono.


----------



## USMarine75

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's still mono.



Buy two and run a stereo rig?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Zakk: No Rest > No More Tears

Suck it, suckers! 

Also, I wish I didn't have to listen to three jerk off dullards to listen to Mick Mars play guitar.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Zakk: No Rest > No More Tears
> 
> Suck it, suckers!
> 
> Also, I wish I didn't have to listen to three jerk off dullards to listen to Mick Mars play guitar.



Doesn't he have a solo album? Or at least some tracks?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TheBolivianSniper said:


> Doesn't he have a solo album? Or at least some tracks?



He's been working on a solo album for like 24 years, give or take a decade.

Also the self-titled Motley Crue album is killer.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

No More Tears sounds like a bigger No Rest For The Wicked

Also I'mma need Mick to release that solo album. The motherfucker is already 40 years late for death so I need him to hurry up before the Grim Reaper finally remembers the job he forgot to do.


----------



## MFB

BenjaminW said:


> No More Tears tone-wise is too mushy for my ears.



Say WHAT? I find NMT to be just the right level of bottom end compared to something like his No Rest for The Wicked Tone.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Zakk: No Rest > No More Tears
> 
> Suck it, suckers!
> 
> Also, I wish I didn't have to listen to three jerk off dullards to listen to Mick Mars play guitar.




My new TC Electronics June 60 Chorus pedal nails this era.
Still having fun with it, just got delivered a few hours ago.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> My new TC Electronics June 60 Chorus pedal nails this era.
> Still having fun with it, just got delivered a few hours ago.


It does?


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

It's very rad, makes sense, it's right out of the same era.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> It's very rad, makes sense, it's right out of the same era.



I just recommended that to someone. Currently in plugin world my go-to is the Magic Switch, which is based on the Roland Juno 60. I figured that the closest I could get to my Magic Switch in hardware form would be the June 60. Thanks for confirming that.


----------



## BenjaminW

MFB said:


> Say WHAT? I find NMT to be just the right level of bottom end compared to something like his No Rest for The Wicked Tone.



Sorry, just committing a little heresy here.


----------



## BornToLooze

I think there is something to the tone wood thing. Not in the sense that this type of wood gives you this tone, but in the sense that there in good wood and shit wood. I've tried to use some wood my dad (builds houses) has for some projects, and even with something as bulk as 2x4s, every now and then, there's one you could leave a tank parked on and it still won't straighten out.

Your tone is all from your pickups, but they pick up the strings vibrating, and the stings are anchored into the wood on both ends, so I would think if you have an old dried out piece of would that would affect how much those strings vibrate, just like a green piece of wood would. That's what's cool about people like Aristides. They aren't made from wood, so I would think that gives them a more likely chance of all their guitars sounding the same.


----------



## USMarine75

BornToLooze said:


> I think there is something to the tone wood thing.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BornToLooze said:


> Not in the sense that this type of wood gives you this tone, but in the sense that there is good wood and shit wood.



Hm...and chyle I LOVES me some good wood when I can find him.


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I just recommended that to someone. Currently in plugin world my go-to is the Magic Switch, which is based on the Roland Juno 60. I figured that the closest I could get to my Magic Switch in hardware form would be the June 60. Thanks for confirming that.



Keep an eye out for another plugin version coming out soon. Can’t say much else due to a non disclosure agreement, but this has replaced my other chorus plugins.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Keep an eye out for another plugin version coming out soon. Can’t say much else due to a non disclosure agreement, but this has replaced my other chorus plugins.


Oh lawd he comin


----------



## Masoo2

Seems pretty unpopular here on SSO but I really don't think that Balaguer does good finishwork. With the exception of their glossy/shell/vintage stuff, their guitars normally come out looking wayyyyy cheaper than other South Korean made guitars They look like Agiles when they should look like Schecters or LTDs if not way better considering the cost. 

Similarly, the finishes Skervesen has been putting out over the past few years have been pretty disappointing compared to their earlier stuff. Maybe it was because they moved away from using the Mayones guys to a new painter (or just doing it in-house), but even then I remember that transition and the guitars they put out afterwards for a while were still great. Their new stuff, similar to Balaguer, is just too flat, dull, etc and really misses the mark on fade/burst/transition stuff which is a shame because when they first started becoming known they were putting out some absolutely beautiful (if not extremely in vogue djenty/prog style) finish work in crazy colors and with insane tops.

Of course I'm just speaking broadly here, they've both put out some beautiful looking stuff, but in general I feel their finish work just misses the mark.


----------



## youngthrasher9

I think that even entry to mid level guitar companies should focus more on building tonally balanced instruments over flashy aesthetics or traditional wood combinations.


----------



## InfinityCollision

"Tonal balance" doesn't sell to the average buyer, if it sells to anyone at all. Not in ads, not in product specs, not in the shop. Good luck even getting any 3 random guitarists to agree that a single guitar is "tonally balanced" and that this is superior to some other thing of comparable quality. Somebody will call the sound flat or sterile or lacking in resonance or somesuch.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

What does "tonally balanced" actually mean? Sounds like marketing meeting horseshit.


----------



## youngthrasher9

True, actually! What I meant, I suppose, is focusing more on producing guitars that doesn’t sound dead acoustically or plugged in. I guess you could say even focusing more on the sound quality of the instrument vs flashy aesthetics and traditional wood combinations ESPECIALLY because of how hard it is to get certain tone woods now.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

youngthrasher9 said:


> True, actually! What I meant, I suppose, is focusing more on producing guitars that doesn’t sound dead acoustically or plugged in. I guess you could say even focusing more on the sound quality of the instrument vs flashy aesthetics and traditional wood combinations ESPECIALLY because of how hard it is to get certain tone woods now.



Tonally dead instruments isn't exclusive to low-mid priced instruments. I've played some prestiges and a ton of ESPs and EIIs that were just lifeless planks where even newer Squiers were killing them.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

youngthrasher9 said:


> True, actually! What I meant, I suppose, is focusing more on producing guitars that doesn’t sound dead acoustically or plugged in. I guess you could say even focusing more on the sound quality of the instrument vs flashy aesthetics and traditional wood combinations ESPECIALLY because of how hard it is to get certain tone woods now.



Forgetting for a minute that the majority of the tone from electric guitars comes from the pickups, wood isn't really consistent enough to "focus on the tone" when you're building hundreds or thousands of guitars. Heck, even the low volume builders don't always nail it, and that's because, not only is "tone" completely subjective, but it's not like they can swap in dozens of different pickups before sending a guitar out. Not to mention how important the rest of the rig, and the player themselves, are to the final product. 

I also don't understand why folks focus so much on the unplugged sound of guitars meant to be plugged in. It's like complaining about how my car isn't very easy to push around town. No duh, it's supposed to be driven. 

I get the spirit of what you're saying, I think. That guitars should be built to perform thier primary function over aesthetic gimmicks.


----------



## TheBlackBard

I like to use my Wazacraft MT-2 and my TC Electronic Eyemaster into the clean channel of my 6505+... yes, for THAT tone.


----------



## laxu

Masoo2 said:


> Similarly, the finishes Skervesen has been putting out over the past few years have been pretty disappointing compared to their earlier stuff. Maybe it was because they moved away from using the Mayones guys to a new painter (or just doing it in-house), but even then I remember that transition and the guitars they put out afterwards for a while were still great. Their new stuff, similar to Balaguer, is just too flat, dull, etc and really misses the mark on fade/burst/transition stuff which is a shame because when they first started becoming known they were putting out some absolutely beautiful (if not extremely in vogue djenty/prog style) finish work in crazy colors and with insane tops.
> 
> Of course I'm just speaking broadly here, they've both put out some beautiful looking stuff, but in general I feel their finish work just misses the mark.



What would you put as a cutoff point for the "good" finishes? IMO the finish on mine looks stellar. Completed in 2017. I do agree that I haven't seen any particularly impressive examples on their Instagram feed for a good while. This might of course have more to do with what their customers order more than anything.


----------



## Masoo2

laxu said:


> What would you put as a cutoff point for the "good" finishes? IMO the finish on mine looks stellar. Completed in 2017. I do agree that I haven't seen any particularly impressive examples on their Instagram feed for a good while. This might of course have more to do with what their customers order more than anything.


Here's an imgur album for reference: https://imgur.com/a/29kSoOI

The first four images are pre-2017 and 2017 agate finishes. I think all look fantastic but something about the finish spillover as the blue goes to natural just seems like it started to get slightly lazier/more noticeable in the 2017 than the pre-2017.

Then you get to the next three examples of the same finish from 2018 up until 2020 and it's like they didn't even try with the spillover/fade anymore, it's just a big section of blue on top of natural. Looks really bad imo.

Then I have some example of their newer matte finishes which look incredibly flat and...well...matte. It's hard for me to put this into words, but compared to other guitars I've handled in-person and countless images I've compared I've yet to encounter a matte finish that looks THAT cheap/lifeless/2D which is a real shame when there's a nice piece of wood under the finish. Like even cheaper import LTDs have nicer matte finishes.

The thing is it's not like everything they put out these days is questionable, they put out some FANTASTIC natural wood and glossy work, but even the natural wood stuff sometimes misses as with the one example of that natural finish popular top.

I guess it's just safe to say that something major changed in the way they apply their matte finishes from 2017/before and 2018-now. I'm sure some love it, but it's just something I've noticed and really don't like.

Here's some Balaguer finishes which I feel compare pretty well to the newer Skervesen stuff: https://imgur.com/a/7WfYNdd

Flat, dull, lifeless, etc...

Of course, some of this could be exaggerated by the photos themselves, but it's something I've noticed across various sources (YouTube, Reverb, Flickr, Instagram, etc). I tried to use a variety of photos in the album to compensate. 

Maybe it has to do with the quality of tops being used? That could be either up to customer choice or just based on what they happen to stock, but again as I mentioned above it's not like everything Skervesen puts out fits this criteria, they've made some stunning guitars this year.


----------



## laxu

Masoo2 said:


> Here's an imgur album for reference: https://imgur.com/a/29kSoOI
> 
> The first four images are pre-2017 and 2017 agate finishes. I think all look fantastic but something about the finish spillover as the blue goes to natural just seems like it started to get slightly lazier/more noticeable in the 2017 than the pre-2017.
> 
> Then you get to the next three examples of the same finish from 2018 up until 2020 and it's like they didn't even try with the spillover/fade anymore, it's just a big section of blue on top of natural. Looks really bad imo.
> 
> Then I have some example of their newer matte finishes which look incredibly flat and...well...matte. It's hard for me to put this into words, but compared to other guitars I've handled in-person and countless images I've compared I've yet to encounter a matte finish that looks THAT cheap/lifeless/2D which is a real shame when there's a nice piece of wood under the finish. Like even cheaper import LTDs have nicer matte finishes.
> 
> The thing is it's not like everything they put out these days is questionable, they put out some FANTASTIC natural wood and glossy work, but even the natural wood stuff sometimes misses as with the one example of that natural finish popular top.
> 
> I guess it's just safe to say that something major changed in the way they apply their matte finishes from 2017/before and 2018-now. I'm sure some love it, but it's just something I've noticed and really don't like.
> 
> Here's some Balaguer finishes which I feel compare pretty well to the newer Skervesen stuff: https://imgur.com/a/7WfYNdd
> 
> Flat, dull, lifeless, etc...
> 
> Of course, some of this could be exaggerated by the photos themselves, but it's something I've noticed across various sources (YouTube, Reverb, Flickr, Instagram, etc). I tried to use a variety of photos in the album to compensate.
> 
> Maybe it has to do with the quality of tops being used? That could be either up to customer choice or just based on what they happen to stock, but again as I mentioned above it's not like everything Skervesen puts out fits this criteria, they've made some stunning guitars this year.



For comparison, this is how mine looks like. These are photos from Skervesen but it does look like that in real life too.
https://imgur.com/Dfm8owE
https://imgur.com/nFdNcK9

I can see what you mean. I think the issue with at least some of those pics is indeed the tops. Highly knotted and figured vs less so. The agave finish one with the skull and crossbones inlay is particularly bad looking. But a big part of it could also be glossy vs matte finish and quality of photography. Bad lighting can make even nice flame tops look mediocre. If I remember correctly Skervesen also charges extra for letting you pick a top and if you don't do that you get their best interpretation of what you were looking for. Mine is pretty close to a Photoshop mockup I sent them for reference on the finish and colors I wanted. I was initially hoping (and should have communicated that to them) for a more knotted top in the center but I think the end result is really nice and certainly highly figured so I have no complaints.

The one I feel is legit bad is the 2018 one below the bad agave one. The edges of the color are sharp yet uneven. Might be because of the particular top wood and how it accepts dye, might be a change in who is doing it. The 2020 below it looks nice.

I don't see anything wrong with the last natural one you marked "bad woody". It is definitely not a combination of woods and hardware that I would pick but otherwise there is nothing wrong with it. If you mean it's bad because of how it looks matte on the edge, that's what happens with a matte finish in certain lighting.


----------



## Emperoff

Masoo2 said:


> Here's an imgur album for reference: https://imgur.com/a/29kSoOI
> 
> The first four images are pre-2017 and 2017 agate finishes. I think all look fantastic but something about the finish spillover as the blue goes to natural just seems like it started to get slightly lazier/more noticeable in the 2017 than the pre-2017.
> 
> Then you get to the next three examples of the same finish from 2018 up until 2020 and it's like they didn't even try with the spillover/fade anymore, it's just a big section of blue on top of natural. Looks really bad imo.
> 
> Then I have some example of their newer matte finishes which look incredibly flat and...well...matte. It's hard for me to put this into words, but compared to other guitars I've handled in-person and countless images I've compared I've yet to encounter a matte finish that looks THAT cheap/lifeless/2D which is a real shame when there's a nice piece of wood under the finish. Like even cheaper import LTDs have nicer matte finishes.
> 
> The thing is it's not like everything they put out these days is questionable, they put out some FANTASTIC natural wood and glossy work, but even the natural wood stuff sometimes misses as with the one example of that natural finish popular top.
> 
> I guess it's just safe to say that something major changed in the way they apply their matte finishes from 2017/before and 2018-now. I'm sure some love it, but it's just something I've noticed and really don't like.
> 
> Here's some Balaguer finishes which I feel compare pretty well to the newer Skervesen stuff: https://imgur.com/a/7WfYNdd
> 
> Flat, dull, lifeless, etc...
> 
> Of course, some of this could be exaggerated by the photos themselves, but it's something I've noticed across various sources (YouTube, Reverb, Flickr, Instagram, etc). I tried to use a variety of photos in the album to compensate.
> 
> Maybe it has to do with the quality of tops being used? That could be either up to customer choice or just based on what they happen to stock, but again as I mentioned above it's not like everything Skervesen puts out fits this criteria, they've made some stunning guitars this year.



One man's "stellar" finish, is another man's "pukeburst trypophobia woodtop" finish.

There's no point in pretending people would reach a consensus on something. That's why we have options.


----------



## Masoo2

Emperoff said:


> One man's "stellar" finish, is another man's "pukeburst trypophobia woodtop" finish.
> 
> There's no point in pretending people would reach a consensus on something. That's why we have options.


Exactly. I'm sure many love it, I just noticed a difference and have been a bit disappointed with their recent stuff, it's a me thing. It's mostly because they were the first brand I ever really gushed over back in the day when Musza was posting them on wordpress circa 2013 that I have such strong feelings on their newer stuff as I used to think their finish work was unreal. Like take this https://mondomg.wordpress.com/2013/01/27/skervesen-raptor-7/ it was the first Skervesen I ever saw other than the terrormachines and to this day is one of my favorite guitars aesthetically.



laxu said:


> For comparison, this is how mine looks like. These are photos from Skervesen but it does look like that in real life too.
> https://imgur.com/Dfm8owE
> https://imgur.com/nFdNcK9
> .


Your guitar was one I was actually going to include in the album as an example of a great finish they've put out haha, it's beautiful. Their gloss stuff is absolutely top tier.

I do believe the tops are a big thing in how I'm interpreting the finish, such as with the "bad woody" one when I guess there really isn't a problem with it. But even with good tops I'm just noticing some things I guess like how you also saw in the skull fretboard and one below it

https://imgur.com/a/1yNMZst (the ordering got messed up) This is two Skervesen Raptors and two Mayones Duvells with matte flamed maple tops from Pitbull Audio all shot at the same angle in the same setting with the same camera to highlight the differences as best as I could. Because it was kinda hard to compare because the only Skervesens they had with flame maple tops had fades, I added two additional photos of a Skervesen without a fade and a Mayones with a fade.

Every company/luthier has their own signature style of finish work, the best summary I can give is that something must've changed in Skervesen's after the final split from Mayones that turned out a way I no longer personally like. A Kiesel matte finish looks different than a Mayones which looks different than a Strandberg which looks different than a Suhr etc etc etc


----------



## gabito

I think my only unpopular opinion on gear is that I mostly don't care about tube amps.

I'm OK with just using modellers / plugins, they're good enough for me. Even a POD HD is OK.

I also have a tube amp for when I need more than "good enough" (or just something different), but most of the time I don't.


----------



## Aliascent

I wish roasted maple would go away, as it makes any guitar ugly.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Unpopular opinion...with the rise of VST amps, I don't even care about physical gear anymore. I trashed my real amp during a gig and I haven't bothered to buy another because I honestly just don't give a shit. Thanks to covid the band hasn't done any live shows so I have no reason to even spend the money.

When I do, I'll get a Helix rack unit because of its features and because, of course, I can use it as an interface and use the tones from it at home.

Fuck real amps.


----------



## USMarine75

I like the shiny gloss vintage yellow tint on necks... but then relic’d / worn hard on the back of the neck so it’s silky smooth.


----------



## Shask

Aliascent said:


> I wish roasted maple would go away, as it makes any guitar ugly.


I like roasted maple, lol. Very smooth feeling. It has to be paired with the right color body though.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Neural DSP shit sounds like overpriced garbage


----------



## TonyFlyingSquirrel

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Keep an eye out for another plugin version coming out soon. Can’t say much else due to a non disclosure agreement, but this has replaced my other chorus plugins.



And, here it is...


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> And, here it is...



Waiting for my damn license activation. I'm looking forward to seeing what I can do with it


----------



## Rxcoma

Wow.. The thread is still going strong.. That kinda makes my day.. There just wasnt enough free thinking...anti brand slavery types floatin around.. Too many people (really.. Around 80%-90% of all customers ive had over the course) won't buy a dimarzio pickup that doesn't say dimarzio ON THE FRONT.. that actual reference influenced opening this thread.. I asked him if he'd plugged in with it yet and to look on the back plate/platform and he would see his ultra necessary or the tone sucks in his fragile crumbly cheese whiz filled cheesy mental milieu but NOPE.. wouldn't touch it. Ok.. No problem.. Too dumb for a dimarzio blaze anyways.  then this thread was born


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Rxcoma said:


> Wow.. The thread is still going strong.. That kinda makes my day.. There just wasnt enough free thinking...anti brand slavery types floatin around.. Too many people (really.. Around 80%-90% of all customers ive had over the course) won't buy a dimarzio pickup that doesn't say dimarzio ON THE FRONT.. that actual reference influenced opening this thread.. I asked him if he'd plugged in with it yet and to look on the back plate/platform and he would see his ultra necessary or the tone sucks in his fragile crumbly cheese whiz filled cheesy mental milieu but NOPE.. wouldn't touch it. Ok.. No problem.. Too dumb for a dimarzio blaze anyways.  then this thread was born


I would be wary of a DiMarzio with a tag on the front anyways. I didn't know they made any other than overseas designed pickups and collaborations with other companies types they were "sorta" DiMarzios.


----------



## Aliascent

Shask said:


> I like roasted maple, lol. Very smooth feeling. It has to be paired with the right color body though.



It looks kinda ok on Solar guitars, but I still prefer clear, unroasted maple. Feeling is not do different to me. But if you like roasted, I guess you won't be lacking of options


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I would be wary of a DiMarzio with a tag on the front anyways. I didn't know they made any other than overseas designed pickups and collaborations with other companies types they were "sorta" DiMarzios.


Usually Dimarzios that come stock in guitars say Dimarzio on the front. I have a set like this in my Charvel.


----------



## Shask

Aliascent said:


> It looks kinda ok on Solar guitars, but I still prefer clear, unroasted maple. Feeling is not do different to me. But if you like roasted, I guess you won't be lacking of options


I like them on many of the newer Charvel and EVH guitars. Especially the ones that are green or brown in color.


----------



## Decapitated

I like the neck inlay on Solar guitars.


----------



## sakeido

Alright alright here's something new... my Badlander 100 came in. People were mad that I got pre-approval to do an in-home demo and return it if I didn't like it, well they'll be happy to hear I didn't buy it at all. Didn't make it out of the store, demo'd it there and... I straight up didn't like it. It could have been a great amp, but some bizarre choices were made.

I started the demo on the cleans which were great, especially by Recto standards, then hopped to the Crunch channel. I really, really liked the crunch channel and started thinkin maybe I could replace both my Recto and Stiletto with just the Badlander - chords were nice and chimey, single note leads sounded phenomenal, was getting all kinds of sweet vintage and 80s metal sounds out of it. Jake E. Lee tones for days on this voicing, didn't need a boost or anything to be totally usable. So at this point I was gettin really excited, thinking I could replace both the Stiletto and Recto with just the Badlander... there were a few things I wasn't really digging, there is basically no low end response. Didn't like it for low riffing or chugs, it was gainy and saturated but refused to sound huge. But I figured, nbd, that's what the third voicing is for so I flipped it to Crush mode and imo it completely fell on its face. I expected it to come completely unhinged, with a big jump in gain, presence and low end like you get going from Vintage to Modern on a Recto, and it didn't deliver at all.

The guys saying it sounds like a Recto... I don't really know what they think a Recto sounds like, honestly. The Badlander straight up can't do the Recto Modern voice, at all, it doesn't even come close. Even a 3 channel Dual Rect, channel 3 vintage so it has the 2.1khz presence instead of 1.8khz, sounds more aggressive than a Badlander set to crush. With some pretty insane settings, literally treble 10 mid 0 bass 10, it would start to grind pretty good but its always too restrained and "cultured" sounding if that makes sense. The presence knob reminds me of the presence on my modded 6505+ combo, it sure takes presence out but never seems to add any in. Too smooth, the lows are too controlled. I tried three different cabs and finished the demo literally sitting on the floor with my ear by the speaker just trying to hype the amp up and nothing.

Still wouldn't be a big deal because the Crunch tone is to die for. I would happily run the amp with both channels set to Crunch, one on 20 watt, one on 100 watt, but you can't set one channel to triode and the other to pentode! It makes no sense at all why they would leave that feature out when almost every other amp Mesa makes has channel assignable power settings. And ditching the tube rectifier... man this amp was basically screaming for tube rectification. Anything to loosen up and add some lows.

So yeah, decent amp and all. The Cabclone built in is nice for people who want that, I guess. I have multiple amps and already have a loadbox & IR pedal so I don't need that or even really want it built into an amp. I would take a Recto MW, Triple Crown, or Mark V over it 10 times out of 10. I'm kinda wondering if the Badlander was voiced to be recorded, or listened to with Cabclone - I could see the right IR, like a Mesa OS with SM57, would add all the things the amp was missing in the room. One thing I kept thinking was that it sounded very "mix ready" and it didn't need any extra pedals or anything but when I'm droppin $3k on an amp it needs to be fun to play and sound sick, in the room. 

And I definitely stand behind what I said - the Badlander is a sequel to the Mesa British amps, and is hardly a Recto at all. It ain't a Royal Atlantic, that's for sure, it's a Stiletto all smoothed out with the bass sucked out. Stiletto Fluid Drive mode has more balls than anything the Badlander can do.


----------



## c7spheres

sakeido said:


> Alright alright here's something new... my Badlander 100 came in. People were mad that I got pre-approval to do an in-home demo and return it if I didn't like it, well they'll be happy to hear I didn't buy it at all. Didn't make it out of the store, demo'd it there and... I straight up didn't like it. It could have been a great amp, but some bizarre choices were made.
> 
> I started the demo on the cleans which were great, especially by Recto standards, then hopped to the Crunch channel. I really, really liked the crunch channel and started thinkin maybe I could replace both my Recto and Stiletto with just the Badlander - chords were nice and chimey, single note leads sounded phenomenal, was getting all kinds of sweet vintage and 80s metal sounds out of it. Jake E. Lee tones for days on this voicing, didn't need a boost or anything to be totally usable. So at this point I was gettin really excited, thinking I could replace both the Stiletto and Recto with just the Badlander... there were a few things I wasn't really digging, there is basically no low end response. Didn't like it for low riffing or chugs, it was gainy and saturated but refused to sound huge. But I figured, nbd, that's what the third voicing is for so I flipped it to Crush mode and imo it completely fell on its face. I expected it to come completely unhinged, with a big jump in gain, presence and low end like you get going from Vintage to Modern on a Recto, and it didn't deliver at all.
> 
> The guys saying it sounds like a Recto... I don't really know what they think a Recto sounds like, honestly. The Badlander straight up can't do the Recto Modern voice, at all, it doesn't even come close. Even a 3 channel Dual Rect, channel 3 vintage so it has the 2.1khz presence instead of 1.8khz, sounds more aggressive than a Badlander set to crush. With some pretty insane settings, literally treble 10 mid 0 bass 10, it would start to grind pretty good but its always too restrained and "cultured" sounding if that makes sense. The presence knob reminds me of the presence on my modded 6505+ combo, it sure takes presence out but never seems to add any in. Too smooth, the lows are too controlled. I tried three different cabs and finished the demo literally sitting on the floor with my ear by the speaker just trying to hype the amp up and nothing.
> 
> Still wouldn't be a big deal because the Crunch tone is to die for. I would happily run the amp with both channels set to Crunch, one on 20 watt, one on 100 watt, but you can't set one channel to triode and the other to pentode! It makes no sense at all why they would leave that feature out when almost every other amp Mesa makes has channel assignable power settings. And ditching the tube rectifier... man this amp was basically screaming for tube rectification. Anything to loosen up and add some lows.
> 
> So yeah, decent amp and all. The Cabclone built in is nice for people who want that, I guess. I have multiple amps and already have a loadbox & IR pedal so I don't need that or even really want it built into an amp. I would take a Recto MW, Triple Crown, or Mark V over it 10 times out of 10. I'm kinda wondering if the Badlander was voiced to be recorded, or listened to with Cabclone - I could see the right IR, like a Mesa OS with SM57, would add all the things the amp was missing in the room. One thing I kept thinking was that it sounded very "mix ready" and it didn't need any extra pedals or anything but when I'm droppin $3k on an amp it needs to be fun to play and sound sick, in the room.
> 
> And I definitely stand behind what I said - the Badlander is a sequel to the Mesa British amps, and is hardly a Recto at all. It ain't a Royal Atlantic, that's for sure, it's a Stiletto all smoothed out with the bass sucked out. Stiletto Fluid Drive mode has more balls than anything the Badlander can do.


 Great review! Do you have a favorite Boogie for high gain tones? If you could have one dream Boogie which channels from what amps would put in it? Meaning which Boogie got your favorite channels?


----------



## sakeido

c7spheres said:


> Great review! Do you have a favorite Boogie for high gain tones? If you could have one dream Boogie which channels from what amps would put in it? Meaning which Boogie got your favorite channels?


oh shit that's a good question. Of all the tube amps I've had, I've owned a 3 channel non-MW Recto for by far the most amount of time so I guess it must be the Recto. The non-MW Rectos are supposedly the worst ones they ever made, which is nbd because the worst Recto is imo still one of the best and most classic high gain tones of all time. I like the flexibility a lot of the 3 channel, sure it doesn't really have a clean but it's a great tone in its own right. I mean, a Christian rap metal band got that "clean" sound to #1 on the charts so it has a use  but imo almost everything Mesa makes is top class. Recto is one of my favorite modern sounds, Stiletto/Triple Crown are outstanding hot rod Marshall type sounds, and the Mark series are my favorites for really tight, grindy tones. 

dream Boogie would be a 4 channel behemoth. 100 watts, 6L6 tubes. Channel 1 would be the same as the one on the MW Dual Recs clean/pushed but with a crunch setting added. Channel 2 would be Stiletto channel 2 with crunch/tight drive/fluid drive. Channel 3 would be Recto channel 3 with raw/vintage/modern except with the presence at 2khz instead of 2.1. Channel 4 would be JP2C channel 3. For simplicity's sake you'd have to share a power amp.. I'd want something in between a normal Rectifier and the Badlander. tbh the Badlander they had the right idea but I think they went too far in taming the Recto tone, something that's a 50/50 split between classic Recto and Badlander would be sick. 

Then throw a graphic EQ in there, make it channel assignable, 20/50/100 watt modes for all channels and switchable tube/diode rectification. I think this amp would be impossibly complicated and expensive so you could probably ditch the JP2C channel and just make it a 3 channel and I'd still be happy as hell.


----------



## c7spheres

sakeido said:


> oh shit that's a good question. Of all the tube amps I've had, I've owned a 3 channel non-MW Recto for by far the most amount of time so I guess it must be the Recto. The non-MW Rectos are supposedly the worst ones they ever made, which is nbd because the worst Recto is imo still one of the best and most classic high gain tones of all time. I like the flexibility a lot of the 3 channel, sure it doesn't really have a clean but it's a great tone in its own right. I mean, a Christian rap metal band got that "clean" sound to #1 on the charts so it has a use  but imo almost everything Mesa makes is top class. Recto is one of my favorite modern sounds, Stiletto/Triple Crown are outstanding hot rod Marshall type sounds, and the Mark series are my favorites for really tight, grindy tones.
> 
> dream Boogie would be a 4 channel behemoth. 100 watts, 6L6 tubes. Channel 1 would be the same as the one on the MW Dual Recs clean/pushed but with a crunch setting added. Channel 2 would be Stiletto channel 2 with crunch/tight drive/fluid drive. Channel 3 would be Recto channel 3 with raw/vintage/modern except with the presence at 2khz instead of 2.1. Channel 4 would be JP2C channel 3. For simplicity's sake you'd have to share a power amp.. I'd want something in between a normal Rectifier and the Badlander. tbh the Badlander they had the right idea but I think they went too far in taming the Recto tone, something that's a 50/50 split between classic Recto and Badlander would be sick.
> 
> Then throw a graphic EQ in there, make it channel assignable, 20/50/100 watt modes for all channels and switchable tube/diode rectification. I think this amp would be impossibly complicated and expensive so you could probably ditch the JP2C channel and just make it a 3 channel and I'd still be happy as hell.


 That would be a killer amp! Maybe in the future we'll see/hear people modding the Badlander to make it fatter : )


----------



## Mathemagician

It does sound like that crunch channel is to die for though. Hoping to see that show up modeled in Axe Fx/similar soon.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

So I just did a sound test between my two guitars. One is loaded with Black Winters, and the other is loaded with Dean Time Capsules

The results are...quite interesting. I'm deciding whether or not I want to make a post having people guess which is which.

The end result is essentially, there's no need to swap the Dean stock pickups. As to exactly why, I won't say just yet.


----------



## BornToLooze

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> So I just did a sound test between my two guitars. One is loaded with Black Winters, and the other is loaded with Dean Time Capsules
> 
> The results are...quite interesting. I'm deciding whether or not I want to make a post having people guess which is which.
> 
> The end result is essentially, there's no need to swap the Dean stock pickups. As to exactly why, I won't say just yet.



Ya, but which one will be cooler on social media? 

My second best sounding guitar I don't know what pickups are in it other than one says Seymour Duncan.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BornToLooze said:


> Ya, but which one will be cooler on social media?
> 
> My second best sounding guitar I don't know what pickups are in it other than one says Seymour Duncan.



I'm trying to make this as "scientific" as possible. I recorded two tracks with each pickup. I'm using the exact same amp setup. The amp is something people should be familiar with, as is the speaker..and the settings are all at noon.

I'm gonna do an isolated guitar tone as well as the tone in a mix.

That way everything is covered.


----------



## BornToLooze

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm trying to make this as "scientific" as possible. I recorded two tracks with each pickup. I'm using the exact same amp setup. The amp is something people should be familiar with, as is the speaker..and the settings are all at noon.
> 
> I'm gonna do an isolated guitar tone as well as the tone in a mix.
> 
> That way everything is covered.



I've used the same pickup in 2 guitars that were both basswood superstats with maple necks, rosewood boards, TOMs and the same scale length, and they sounded completely different. I still think there is either something to tonewood, or there is some black magic and voodoo that go into making guitars.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

BornToLooze said:


> I've used the same pickup in 2 guitars that were both basswood superstats with maple necks, rosewood boards, TOMs and the same scale length, and they sounded completely different. I still think there is either something to tonewood, or there is some black magic and voodoo that go into making guitars.


We shall see..


----------



## possumkiller

I can't hear the difference between a long tenon lp and a short tenon lp.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

possumkiller said:


> I can't hear the difference between a long tenon lp and a short tenon lp.


Yeah..what's with that? Collectors actually care about that kind of thing and I never understood what difference it made and why anyone should give a shit


----------



## Jon Pearson

possumkiller said:


> I can't hear the difference between a long tenon lp and a short tenon lp.



Do you even GAS, bro?


----------



## Wuuthrad

Fingerboard dots are useless! 

Give me one side dot at 7 or nothing!

All for one or none for all!


----------



## Wuuthrad

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah..what's with that? Collectors actually care about that kind of thing and I never understood what difference it made and why anyone should give a shit



Ever play an SG? If you breathe on it it goes out of tune! lol 

Longer tenon might alleviate that, but mostly people love sniffing the cork.


----------



## laxu

My Heatley Tradition has its neck tenon going all the way to the bridge or end of the bridge pickup slot or something like that. That's like a lot more tone, surely!

The builder said he stopped doing them like that because nobody cared.

But realistically on Gibsons it might have some effect. In the pic below you can see the long tenon necks would most likely mate better with the body, possibly giving you better sustain or tone.


----------



## Millul

laxu said:


> My Heatley Tradition has its neck tenon going all the way to the bridge or end of the bridge pickup slot or something like that. That's like a lot more tone, surely!
> 
> The builder said he stopped doing them like that because nobody cared.
> 
> But realistically on Gibsons it might have some effect. In the pic below you can see the long tenon necks would most likely mate better with the body, possibly giving you better sustain or tone.



You have a Heatley Traditional?? That's super scool!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The long vs. short tenon thing is mostly bullshit. 

It's just another thing that a certain subset of guitar nerds like to argue about on the internet. 

I'm sure there is a difference in both tone and construction, but it's never really going to make or break anything in the real world.


----------



## oniduder

oh damn i got one

all of the digital rack/floor unit axe fx, neural dsp, line 6 podx or helix, kempers, positive grid, are always a bad choice compared to the real, i guess you could even add the synergy/mts modules to this list, although i'm speakign mostly of the digital stuff

not the real is better, but that buying any of the above that is digital is like trying to get the best computer and expected it to be relevant in 5 years,

like buying an Apple II and keeping it for 20 years becuase it's still better than the newer i guess you'd be in the g4 era or the power pc era of mac, point is it's literally throwing money away and not ever going to be able to just be itself and worth it forever

1950's bassman or the imitation, the bassman is always cooler, i guess?

i'm not sure what exactly i'm saying

like gaming with a commodore 64 now or somehitng, idk it's always pointless


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> The long vs. short tenon thing is mostly bullshit.
> 
> It's just another thing that a certain subset of guitar nerds like to argue about on the internet.
> 
> I'm sure there is a difference in both tone and construction, but it's never really going to make or break anything in the real world.



Now you sound all negative like me. I love it


----------



## broangiel

oniduder said:


> oh damn i got one
> 
> all of the digital rack/floor unit axe fx, neural dsp, line 6 podx or helix, kempers, positive grid, are always a bad choice compared to the real, i guess you could even add the synergy/mts modules to this list, although i'm speakign mostly of the digital stuff
> 
> not the real is better, but that buying any of the above that is digital is like trying to get the best computer and expected it to be relevant in 5 years,
> 
> like buying an Apple II and keeping it for 20 years becuase it's still better than the newer i guess you'd be in the g4 era or the power pc era of mac, point is it's literally throwing money away and not ever going to be able to just be itself and worth it forever
> 
> 1950's bassman or the imitation, the bassman is always cooler, i guess?
> 
> i'm not sure what exactly i'm saying
> 
> like gaming with a commodore 64 now or something, idk it's always pointless


I disagree with this, but I guess that's the point of the thread. The problem with the analogy is, the computing world is still accelerating and constantly demanding more and more out of the associated hardware. That's the main aging agent. Many older computers run older software just fine.

Then there's the fact that my Axe-Fx isn't going to sound worse with age. It's already emulating an old, relatively stagnant technology. It may degrade physically and need servicing at some point, and you can argue there are more ways to service an amp than an Axe-Fx, and that would be a fair point.

I get not liking modeling hardware/software, so I'm not saying your preference for the real deal or the original or what have you is wrong, but I don't see the accuracy in the expectation that modeling hardware is going to age like computing hardware.


----------



## laxu

Millul said:


> You have a Heatley Traditional?? That's super scool!



I do! I was looking for a high end Gibson LP at the time for my birthday and could not find anything good in local stores or the used market and this one popped up on the used market in my country. Could not hope for more from a LP type guitar.


----------



## Millul

laxu said:


> I do! I was looking for a high end Gibson LP at the time for my birthday and could not find anything good in local stores or the used market and this one popped up on the used market in my country. Could not hope for more from a LP type guitar.



That's spectacular!
I remember chatting wih Scott on TGP, I was actually planning to go meet him in Victoria during a trip to BC (my GF at the times had family there) but then it didn't happen...more than 10 yearsa go, LOL.

Class act, and amazing builder - rock that aggressively!


----------



## laxu

broangiel said:


> I disagree with this, but I guess that's the point of the thread. The problem with the analogy is, the computing world is still accelerating and constantly demanding more and more out of the associated hardware. That's the main aging agent. Many older computers run older software just fine.
> 
> Then there's the fact that my Axe-Fx isn't going to sound worse with age. It's already emulating an old, relatively stagnant technology. It may degrade physically and need servicing at some point, and you can argue there are more ways to service an amp than an Axe-Fx, and that would be a fair point.
> 
> I get not liking modeling hardware/software, so I'm not saying your preference for the real deal or the original or what have you is wrong, but I don't see the accuracy in the expectation that modeling hardware is going to age like computing hardware.



At the same time there are new versions coming to the market. Realistically an Axe-Fx Std/Ultra is still perfectly good sounding, but the Axe-Fx 2 is a significant bump up from there. Then you have the Axe-Fx 3 which is less of a jump in modeling quality IMO but better user experience overall plus even more powerful.

What happens is that those older units lose a lot of their value and become harder to sell. I still see Axe-Fx 2s on my local used market for around what I sold mine for a few years ago but those don't seem to be selling when for almost the same price you can get something newer like a Helix, FM3 and so on. So in that sense modelers can be similar to computers where the last gen loses value when new stuff comes out. To be fair this also happens to tube amps where there are new revisions, for example my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead would be more valuable than the older non-Superlead version. Then you have the cheaper stuff where buying an old Line6 POD for dirt cheap is not even worth it when you can get a better sounding modern unit for about the same money.

Eventually digital modeling will reach a point where the generation to generation improvements are not particularly exciting. I feel soundwise we are already there unless something technologically significant gets invented. User interfaces continue to improve with the next big jump being the soon to be released NeuralDSP Quad Cortex with its touchscreen, dual purpose knob/footswitch controls etc.


----------



## oniduder

laxu said:


> At the same time there are new versions coming to the market. Realistically an Axe-Fx Std/Ultra is still perfectly good sounding, but the Axe-Fx 2 is a significant bump up from there. Then you have the Axe-Fx 3 which is less of a jump in modeling quality IMO but better user experience overall plus even more powerful.
> 
> What happens is that those older units lose a lot of their value and become harder to sell. I still see Axe-Fx 2s on my local used market for around what I sold mine for a few years ago but those don't seem to be selling when for almost the same price you can get something newer like a Helix, FM3 and so on. So in that sense modelers can be similar to computers where the last gen loses value when new stuff comes out. To be fair this also happens to tube amps where there are new revisions, for example my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead would be more valuable than the older non-Superlead version. Then you have the cheaper stuff where buying an old Line6 POD for dirt cheap is not even worth it when you can get a better sounding modern unit for about the same money.
> 
> Eventually digital modeling will reach a point where the generation to generation improvements are not particularly exciting. I feel soundwise we are already there unless something technologically significant gets invented. User interfaces continue to improve with the next big jump being the soon to be released NeuralDSP Quad Cortex with its touchscreen, dual purpose knob/footswitch controls etc.



I agree that my analogy isn’t apt I guess I am really trying to justify or have reasons for an opinion on the actual product that is ultimately me just saying I don’t like the products

Thanks


----------



## TedEH

oniduder said:


> like buying an Apple II and keeping it for 20 years


I feel like it's more comparable to buying an old gaming console and keeping it for 20 years. The N64 never stopped being fun. Neither did any amp of the same age. IMO.


----------



## oniduder

and part of my not liking the products is the financial aspect of it, people going nuts for the NEW axe fx III, and preordering it? when a standard which honestly could do whatever i'd need for amp sims i'd assume can be gotten for about what?... 600? or so depending?

n64 is an excellent product, there's stores dedicated to selling those and ps2's, i was or thought i was or think i was an absolutely excellent killer in golden eye, i mean split screen and throwing mines in people's faces come on!!!!

I'm glad we're all civil and not smearing shit and placing pipe bombs or doxing one another because of disagreements, 

destroying the fabric of any sense of reliable basis for a society you feel or know you can be apart of, part of fascism is the weakling who's excluded because they're thought to be too strong to be free, therefore lionized killed smeared with shit and burned to the ground

ugh

how's canada these days?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Now you sound all negative like me. I love it



I've been this way before you was born.


----------



## budda

Canada isnt great btw


----------



## broangiel

oniduder said:


> I agree that my analogy isn’t apt I guess I am really trying to justify or have reasons for an opinion on the actual product that is ultimately me just saying I don’t like the products
> 
> Thanks


It’s the unpopular opinion thread, man. Just drop the “all modeling products suck” bomb, and to hell with justification!


----------



## broangiel

laxu said:


> At the same time there are new versions coming to the market. Realistically an Axe-Fx Std/Ultra is still perfectly good sounding, but the Axe-Fx 2 is a significant bump up from there. Then you have the Axe-Fx 3 which is less of a jump in modeling quality IMO but better user experience overall plus even more powerful.
> 
> What happens is that those older units lose a lot of their value and become harder to sell. I still see Axe-Fx 2s on my local used market for around what I sold mine for a few years ago but those don't seem to be selling when for almost the same price you can get something newer like a Helix, FM3 and so on. So in that sense modelers can be similar to computers where the last gen loses value when new stuff comes out. To be fair this also happens to tube amps where there are new revisions, for example my Bogner Goldfinger 45 Superlead would be more valuable than the older non-Superlead version. Then you have the cheaper stuff where buying an old Line6 POD for dirt cheap is not even worth it when you can get a better sounding modern unit for about the same money.
> 
> Eventually digital modeling will reach a point where the generation to generation improvements are not particularly exciting. I feel soundwise we are already there unless something technologically significant gets invented. User interfaces continue to improve with the next big jump being the soon to be released NeuralDSP Quad Cortex with its touchscreen, dual purpose knob/footswitch controls etc.


All that’s obviously true. My only rebuttal would be, the existence of a better unit (whether that’s better because it can do more, store more, has a better interface or whatever) doesn’t degrade something that was already good. I was mostly addressing the functional decline (or lack thereof), not so much the economic decline or feature disparity with newer products. There’s always a bigger fish, faster computer, newer model, etc.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

oniduder said:


> and part of my not liking the products is the financial aspect of it, people going nuts for the NEW axe fx III, and preordering it? when a standard which honestly could do whatever i'd need for amp sims i'd assume can be gotten for about what?... 600? or so depending?
> 
> n64 is an excellent product, there's stores dedicated to selling those and ps2's, i was or thought i was or think i was an absolutely excellent killer in golden eye, i mean split screen and throwing mines in people's faces come on!!!!
> 
> I'm glad we're all civil and not smearing shit and placing pipe bombs or doxing one another because of disagreements,
> 
> destroying the fabric of any sense of reliable basis for a society you feel or know you can be apart of, part of fascism is the weakling who's excluded because they're thought to be too strong to be free, therefore lionized killed smeared with shit and burned to the ground
> 
> ugh
> 
> how's canada these days?


Uhhh... Do you need me to get you taken in for a psych eval for a few days so you don't do anything irrational? I'm not even sure what you're on about? You went from talking to Axe FX standards and N64s to... doxing, pipe bombs, and fascism?

You alright, bro?


----------



## TedEH

oniduder said:


> how's canada these days?


Well, as of 3 minutes ago my province is under a curfew that can land you a $6k fine. But I have my 20 year old amps and game consoles, so.... I guess it's not all bad here.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

MaxOfMetal said:


> I've been this way before you was born.


Yeah but I make it look better. *hair flip*


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Uhhh... Do you need me to get you taken in for a psych eval for a few days so you don't do anything irrational? I'm not even sure what you're on about? You went from talking to Axe FX standards and N64s to... doxing, pipe bombs, and fascism?
> 
> You alright, bro?


HE NEED SOME MILK


----------



## BornToLooze

oniduder said:


> n64 is an excellent product



But can it run Crysis?


----------



## oniduder

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> HE NEED SOME MILK



milk?

what is that in reference to?

and i'm fine, no need to worry, you should see some of my other posts, but thanks for your concern?

i wasn't making a sylogism

but if i may? i've run crysis on n64


----------



## BenjaminW

oniduder said:


> milk?
> 
> what is that in reference to?
> 
> and i'm fine, no need to worry, you should see some of my other posts, but thanks for your concern?
> 
> i wasn't making a sylogism
> 
> but if i may? i've run crysis on n64




Skip to 1:32


----------



## oniduder

/thread?


----------



## USMarine75

New Epiphone and Squier are legit. 

Had some hilarious arguments on IG with people saying their "proper strats" that are MIM are far superior. Am I the only one that gets how dumb that shitty opinion is? Lol


----------



## possumkiller

USMarine75 said:


> New Epiphone and Squier are legit.
> 
> Had some hilarious arguments on IG with people saying their "proper strats" that are MIM are far superior. Am I the only one that gets how dumb that shitty opinion is? Lol


I love Mexican Fenders. I would take a classic series or classic player over American standard any day. 

But Squier got their shit going for a while now. The classic vibe and vintage modified guitars are really good.

I haven't played an epiphone since like 2004 tho.


----------



## USMarine75

possumkiller said:


> I love Mexican Fenders. I would take a classic series or classic player over American standard any day.
> 
> But Squier got their shit going for a while now. The classic vibe and vintage modified guitars are really good.
> 
> I haven't played an epiphone since like 2004 tho.



Specifically the 2020 Epiphone and Squier guitars have taken a huge leap forward in production quality control, features, and playability. You definitely need to give them a try. 

My Squier CME/Andertons LE Classic Vibe Jazzmaster is so good it gets equal play with my Schecter USA NJ.


----------



## TedEH

One of my best sounding/playing guitars right now is an Epiphone.


----------



## Veldar

Djent tones are easier and better when they're on old out of date modeling gear rather than dropping thousands on the newest amp modelers.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Veldar said:


> Djent tones are easier and better when they're on old out of date modeling gear rather than dropping thousands on the newest amp modelers.



Yep. The POD X3, POD HD, and even the old 11 Rack can do that thin, annoying ass midrange and fizzy high end in spades.



USMarine75 said:


> New Epiphone and Squier are legit.
> 
> Had some hilarious arguments on IG with people saying their "proper strats" that are MIM are far superior. Am I the only one that gets how dumb that shitty opinion is? Lol



Hell even some of the older ones, too. I got a mid-late 2000s Squier Standard and it's a killer guitar. And for sure will keep my eyes on a Jazzmaster.


----------



## BornToLooze

USMarine75 said:


> New Epiphone and Squier are legit.
> 
> Had some hilarious arguments on IG with people saying their "proper strats" that are MIM are far superior. Am I the only one that gets how dumb that shitty opinion is? Lol



I've never really cared for Epiphone because they used to be their own thing and just got turned into the cheap Gibsons. That being said, I have an Epi acoustic, and I just ordered a Wilshire.


----------



## Matt08642

I love my PRS Torero, but PRS easily came up with the fucking stupidest control layout possible for trem-equipped guitars:




If I flick the bar out of the way it almost always lands covering the awkward blade selector switch, and I can't sneak around it due to the vol and tone blocking me from every direction


----------



## Bodes

I've just flicked through the "rare Ibanez" thread and mostly just thought: RG, next. RG, next. RG, next. 


I was really hoping for some weird and wonderful shapes.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

Sometimes, I find playing on the middle pickup (single coil) to be the best option, particularly on an SSS guitar. This way, you can go middle/neck, or middle/bridge, and get an in between setting. Alternately, you can go bridge for a brighter tone, and neck for a darker tone, with you middle pickup being the Goldilocks setting. It's the best... of... both... worlds.


----------



## youngthrasher9

Matt08642 said:


> I love my PRS Torero, but PRS easily came up with the fucking stupidest control layout possible for trem-equipped guitars:
> 
> View attachment 88938
> 
> 
> If I flick the bar out of the way it almost always lands covering the awkward blade selector switch, and I can't sneak around it due to the vol and tone blocking me from every direction


Not related to your struggle but Jesus I miss my Torero sometimes. What a fuckin ripper that guitar was.


----------



## youngthrasher9

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Neural DSP shit sounds like overpriced garbage


I’m starting to agree with this more every day.


----------



## youngthrasher9

Orange does the low mid grunt thing better than the Mesa rectifier series.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

youngthrasher9 said:


> Orange does the low mid grunt thing better than the Mesa rectifier series.



I tried a boosted Rockerverb years ago and all I could say was hooooly shiiiiiit.


----------



## BornToLooze

Probably a very unpopular opinion just because I like Strats, but hardtail Strats are better than normal Strats and Fender needs to make more of them.


----------



## laxu

BornToLooze said:


> Probably a very unpopular opinion just because I like Strats, but hardtail Strats are better than normal Strats and Fender needs to make more of them.



That's not all that unpopular. A lot of people block the trem.


----------



## BornToLooze

laxu said:


> That's not all that unpopular. A lot of people block the trem.



But if Fender made them the right way you wouldn't have to block the trem. I know plenty of people that play Strats and like 1 that uses the bar. But no...there's just '70s Strats, the really overpriced Tom Delonge ones, and I think like one current sig model.


----------



## TheBlackBard

I like poplar burl as a finish on guitars.


----------



## Gmork

"Shitty" gear can have more character than using THE "BEST" top of the line gear


----------



## youngthrasher9

Gmork said:


> Shitty gear can have more character than using THE "BEST" top of the line gear


You continually prove this to everyone else here, idk if this counts as unpopular here.


----------



## wheresthefbomb

Whammy bars aren't cool. Stop it.


----------



## John

22 fret guitars are not better than 24 fret guitars, and that neck pickup placement doesn't necessarily make it sound any better (different isn't always better). I for one would much prefer having at least 24 frets on my guitars, anyway.

Not sure how well or how poorly that's received here, as a whole, but I know that has irked a fair amount of folks among the older crowd (ie- Fender and Gibson fans) and even a few individuals who are mainly into caveman riffs, surprisingly enough.


----------



## Bodes

John said:


> 22 fret guitars are not better than 24 fret guitars, and that neck pickup placement doesn't necessarily make it sound any better (different isn't always better). I for one would much prefer having at least 24 frets on my guitars, anyway.
> 
> Not sure how well or how poorly that's received here, as a whole, but I know that has irked a fair amount of folks among the older crowd (ie- Fender and Gibson fans) and even a few individuals who are mainly into caveman riffs, surprisingly enough.



Wait until you see that 25 fretter from Jackson that got posted the other day!

Amendment: resurfaced the other day https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-jackson-b7-satin-black-with-an-extra-fret-d.291095/


----------



## spudmunkey

Bodes said:


> Wait until you see that 25 fretter from Jackson that got posted the other day!



Wait another one, or did someone re-post about it? I remember one from at least a couple months back, and everyone joked that it's where Jackson put the missing one from the 23 fret Kelly from a couple of years ago.


----------



## BenjaminW

BornToLooze said:


> Probably a very unpopular opinion just because I like Strats, but hardtail Strats are better than normal Strats and Fender needs to make more of them.


IIRC, Fender Mod Shop has a hard tail option and Fender (I think) has a couple hard tail models.

I’d go for a hard tail Strat myself, but it feels weird not having a trem on them.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

BornToLooze said:


> Probably a very unpopular opinion just because I like Strats, but hardtail Strats are better than normal Strats and Fender needs to make more of them.



I always dug the look of a hardtail strat, too. Gimme more Strats with hardtails and Floyds.


----------



## Adieu

Just slam the bridge down with 5 springs


----------



## Protestheriphery

youngthrasher9 said:


> Orange does the low mid grunt thing better than the Mesa rectifier series.


Probably easier to dial in as well.


----------



## Protestheriphery

BornToLooze said:


> Probably a very unpopular opinion just because I like Strats, but hardtail Strats are better than normal Strats and Fender needs to make more of them.


I would extend that sentiment to strat shaped guitars in general. Not enough hardtail hh strat-shaped guitars on the market.


----------



## fuji86

Pedals that have a waitlist or are hard to get are overrated


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

fuji86 said:


> Pedals that have a waitlist or are hard to get are overrated


Limited / special editions are in the same basket.


----------



## Gmork

D


fuji86 said:


> Pedals that have a waitlist or are hard to get are overrated


Doesn't count if its just a 1 person company


----------



## BornToLooze

Adieu said:


> Just slam the bridge down with 5 springs


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Adieu said:


> Just slam the bridge down with 5 springs


Hardtail strats still look cooler. That fraction of a square inch hanging off the trem bugs me.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

youngthrasher9 said:


> Orange does the low mid grunt thing better than the Mesa rectifier series.



Yeah I was auditioning recto sims since I like them and the VH4 really can't do that sound great, and the Herbert is a little smooth to be Recto, and the orange sim I got just killed every recto. Like I can crank heavy rock and nu metal on that thing all day better than any mesa sim out there plus it does the general doom sound, has a killer crunch, and fantastic dark round cleans.

Plus boosted to shit it's the one way stop to Slipknot town and I LOVE their tones.




Gmork said:


> "Shitty" gear can have more character than using THE "BEST" top of the line gear




Currently living that principle, my main guitar that outlasted MIJ ESPs and American Jacksons was $600. My second lifetime guitar is a production Schecter and it feels like heaven. My latest purchase was not the USA Charvel I want really bad nor another MIJ beast like I also love, it's a piece of trash 80s jank monster. I have a feeling unless the frets and neck are utter shit it's a lifetime instrument as well.


----------



## Accoun

- Some people say Strats specifically sound better in Eb for whatever reason. Frankly, all guitars do - Eb just sounds better than E Standard.

- Big Strat headstocks are much cooler than standard ones 

- For the vast majority of genres, wooden snares > metal snares


----------



## WarMachine

Bc Rich NJ Beasts were some of the most badass, metal looking guitars ever. I'd love to have another one. 
Fight me.


----------



## TedEH

Accoun said:


> Eb just sounds better than E Standard


The _best_ frequency is obviously 432.


----------



## odibrom

TedEH said:


> The _best_ frequency is obviously 432.



No it's not, it's 440... the 432 is a conspiracy theory... ... but I also like the 220...


----------



## TedEH

I had to google which number it actually was, and one of the top results goes on about healing and "DNA repair" and all kinds of other nonsense. I wonder if 88hz unlocks time travel.


----------



## Emperoff

Croossover bump 

Combo amps are awesome


----------



## technomancer

Emperoff said:


> Croossover bump
> 
> Combo amps are awesome



Caveat: as long as you don't have to haul them around


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well while we're here:

There are no V30 killers. All the speakers that people claim are V30 Killers sound nothing like V30s. At all. 

Plus I don't like Eminence speakers.


----------



## Furtive Glance

Can’t stand zebra-coloured pickups.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

technomancer said:


> Caveat: as long as you don't have to haul them around



*stares in Ampeg 810*


----------



## Emperoff

technomancer said:


> Caveat: as long as you don't have to haul them around



No problem with a roadcase. Just ask for help to move it through stairs, etc. You *could* haul your head+cab rig alone with carts and stuff, but honestly if you're doing that on your own you're better off using a modeller


----------



## TedEH

Emperoff said:


> No problem with a roadcase. Just ask for help to move it through stairs, etc.


Except that road cases _add_ weight, and some people live alone so there's no guarantee there's anyone around to help.


----------



## Emperoff

TedEH said:


> Except that road cases _add_ weight, and some people live alone so there's no guarantee there's anyone around to help.



If you live alone and move your amp from your house to your rehearsal/space gigs on your own, then yeah. Combos are definetely not for you. But then again heads and cabs probably aren't either. If you have your gear in your rehearsal space, and gets loaded in the van by the band (as it should be) when gigging, then it's no problem.

Actually, it's good to have stuff you can't transport on your own. Sure, you can carry a head yourself but it's a potential source of injury. My singer hurt his back the other day grabbing bandmate's Mesa 2:90 as he thought that small thing wouldn't be heavy (it weighs almost like an amp head).

I'll say it again. If you need to transport heavy gear on your own, you better use a modeller or a pedalboard-based rig instead and go lightweight. There is a reason why those rigs are getting so popular these days.


----------



## TedEH

Emperoff said:


> If you live alone and move your amp from your house to your rehearsal/space gigs on your own, then yeah. Combos are not for you. But then again heads and cabs probably aren't either.


This is my situation, and it's why I tend to like head+cab setup. The head can travel while the cabs stay. 4x12 (or 8x10 or what have you) at the jam room, with the 1x12 at home, and when the cabs _do_ need to move it's likely because the whole band is there loading/unloading stuff.

Also, do other places not do gear sharing? Like 90% of shows I've played were arranged so that one band brings cabs, and everyone else just brings their heads.


----------



## Emperoff

TedEH said:


> This is my situation, and it's why I tend to like head+cab setup. The head can travel while the cabs stay. 4x12 (or 8x10 or what have you) at the jam room, with the 1x12 at home, and when the cabs _do_ need to move it's likely because the whole band is there loading/unloading stuff.
> 
> Also, do other places not do gear sharing? Like 90% of shows I've played were arranged so that one band brings cabs, and everyone else just brings their heads.



I'd rather have my balls kicked that having to carry an amp head myself to rehearsal (with its two sets of stairs) in and out every damn week . You people are crazy


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I’d rather have an ampless, pedalboard based rig at this point.


----------



## CanserDYI

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I’d rather have an ampless, pedalboard based rig at this point.


Honestly I'm not sure this is all that unpopular of an opinion anymore.


----------



## /wrists

anything not made in japan is shit


----------



## CanserDYI

evade said:


> anything not made in japan is shit


This isn't an unpopular opinion, it's just a wrong one.


----------



## /wrists

CanserDYI said:


> This isn't an unpopular opinion, it's just a wrong one.


it's not MY opinion but it's a common one


----------



## Emperoff

evade said:


> it's not MY opinion but it's a common one


----------



## Genome

This probably _used_ to be an unpopular opinion, but I'm not quite sure any more as I honestly don't tend to hear guitarists talking about IK Multimedia as much as Neural, etc.

But Amplitube 5 is very underrated. Their new release, Mesa Boogie 2, is insanely good. The Mark IIC+ on that is probably the best Mark sim I've tried next to Reaxis. It used to be awful, but honestly I think guitarists should give Amplitube another shot particularly if you're a Mesa fan.


----------



## Shask

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I’d rather have an ampless, pedalboard based rig at this point.


It would be nice if any of the pedal poweramps sounded and felt as good as their bigger counterparts. Or, if there was a good way to fake it, like using a Dynamic EQ or something.


----------



## StevenC

Emperoff said:


>


----------



## odibrom

EDIT: ... errr... sorry... out of the loop...


----------



## oniduder

tone knob on a guitar, unnecessary


----------



## rokket2005

If you have time to hate on any particular brand on the internet you have time to go practice.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

rokket2005 said:


> If you have time to hate on any particular brand on the internet you have time to go practice.



Or to buy a microphone and interface

*hint hint*


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

oniduder said:


> tone knob on a guitar, unnecessary



after insisting on having a tone knob and coil taps and everything for 2 years and now going 5 months with a guitar with only a single volume, tone knobs are useless, just don't get a guitar that sounds bad 

I miss my coil taps tho


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

oniduder said:


> tone knob on a guitar, unnecessary


My EMG EXGs said, “fuck you, Oni.”


----------



## Metaldestroyerdennis

oniduder said:


> tone knob on a guitar, unnecessary



...but what if I want it later? I mean, I know I won't, but still...

It actually sees a ton of use on my Tele and Jazzmaster but I've never felt the need on a humbucker. But still. What if I need it later?


----------



## rokket2005

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Or to buy a microphone and interface
> 
> *hint hint*



Is the hint directed at me? My music is in my sig


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

rokket2005 said:


> Is the hint directed at me? My music is in my sig



No 

There was a whole shitshow about the EVH iconic and your post reminded me of the dude that started it all.


----------



## youngthrasher9

oniduder said:


> tone knob on a guitar, unnecessary


Yup. I have (built) a guitar with 1 hum and 1 volume, and I never miss the tone knob. Hell, I’ve even considered just wiring a kill switch in the volume knobs place with a 500k resistor on the output. 

And my other guitar is a les paul with the traditional layout and guess how many of those knobs I use? (1)


----------



## Emperoff

Spaced Out Ace said:


> My EMG EXGs said, “fuck you, Oni.”



My EMG BTC said "fuck you, Emp" and now the guitar hisses like mad. Back to tone pot or a killswitch.


----------



## TheBolivianSniper

youngthrasher9 said:


> Yup. I have (built) a guitar with 1 hum and 1 volume, and I never miss the tone knob. Hell, I’ve even considered just wiring a kill switch in the volume knobs place with a 500k resistor on the output.
> 
> And my other guitar is a les paul with the traditional layout and guess how many of those knobs I use? (1)



ok depending on the guitar knobs are nice and if you've got a nice resonant piece of wood that sounds great having things to shape that sound is so nice 

but like my mockingbirds played great, they just didn't have the resonance or acoustic sound for all those switches and knobs 

a good 4 knob LP with push pulls tho? 

fuck me up


----------



## mongey

5150 isn’t even top 20 Of amps, yet alone the best.


----------



## narad

mongey said:


> 5150 isn’t even top 20 Of amps, yet alone the best.



I feel like you gotta list 20 better amps then.


----------



## mongey

narad said:


> I feel like you gotta list 20 better amps then.


How many revisions of recto’s are there ?


----------



## narad

mongey said:


> How many revisions of recto’s are there ?



This list better not be Rev C, D, E, F, G, multiwatt, and then every revision and stripe color of the mesa mark series.


----------



## mongey

narad said:


> This list better not be Rev C, D, E, F, G, multiwatt, and then every revision and stripe color of the mesa mark series.


Not quite. 

there’s def a jc120 and old non MV AC30
In there. 

5150 and it’s flavors may just be an amp I need to spend proper time with. My
Limited experience with it has been underwhelming. Maybe what it does best , I just don’t need.


----------



## BMFan30

TedEH said:


> View attachment 96613
> 
> I wonder if 88hz unlocks time travel.








False, 88hz already unlocked NSBM for us which turned around and unlocked RABM in response.


----------



## Gmork

Emperoff said:


>


Lol would never have expected low tier god to show up here lol


----------



## Gmork

TheBolivianSniper said:


> after insisting on having a tone knob and coil taps and everything for 2 years and now going 5 months with a guitar with only a single volume, tone knobs are useless, just don't get a guitar that sounds bad
> 
> I miss my coil taps tho


Gonna take it one more step and say tone knobs AND volume knobs are useless. Always planned for my next custom to have nothing but a kill switch.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Honestly one kind of setup I've been wanting to try is a 2-volume setup, but with the first volume knob being a master volume and the 2nd knob being a neck only volume. When i ride the volume knob, it tends to be either only with the neck pickup or in the middle position. Bridge pickup is always full blast.


----------



## TedEH

I've always had this theory that "this amp needs to be loud to sound good" is code for "this amp doesn't sound good, but it's very loud, and past a certain volume all amp character is drowned in unintelligible noise anyway".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TedEH said:


> I've always had this theory that "this amp needs to be loud to sound good" is code for "this amp doesn't sound good, but it's very loud, and past a certain volume all amp character is drowned in unintelligible noise anyway".



All amps sound "better" loud, it's just folks tend to have different meanings of "loud", like to me "loud enough to play with a drummer" is just "normal", where most folks who play at home anything louder than "my neighbors/parents will yell at me" which is pretty much anything that's not designed for quiet practice.


----------



## TedEH

I get that, for sure. I'm thinking more the "it needs to be ear-shatteringly loud to sound good" kinds of amps. I dunno if it's a taste thing or people not being good at dialing amps, but I've seen people use their 5150-ish amps this way. Saw some 5150 comments in the last few pages and this was the first thing I thought.


----------



## laxu

I can't think of an amp that would actually sound terrible at "loud enough to play with a drummer" band volume. There are plenty of amps that turn into a can of bees if much below that level though.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Honestly one kind of setup I've been wanting to try is a 2-volume setup, but with the first volume knob being a master volume and the 2nd knob being a neck only volume. When i ride the volume knob, it tends to be either only with the neck pickup or in the middle position. Bridge pickup is always full blast.


So then just have a neck volume. Having a master volume, when the bridge is full blast, seems kind of pointless.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> So then just have a neck volume. Having a master volume, when the bridge is full blast, seems kind of pointless.



It's so I can roll the volume back when using the middle position.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It's so I can roll the volume back when using the middle position.


On both pickups or just the neck?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> On both pickups or just the neck?



Both pickups. I used to not care about the middle position but I've grown to love that sound, especially when clean or pushed.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Guitarists will go on and on about how an amp or modeler "lacks dynamics" or how a clean channel is "too harsh" and then talk about how they wish their guitars didn't have volume or tone controls.


----------



## youngthrasher9

laxu said:


> I can't think of an amp that would actually sound terrible at "loud enough to play with a drummer" band volume. There are plenty of amps that turn into a can of bees if much below that level though.


Randall RD45. It generally sounded not awesome but there was a sweet spot a few notches below band volume. Sounded like the cab was made of cardboard any higher than that.


----------



## TheBlackBard

The 5150 tone had long been exhausted by the time djent became popular and they made it worse by neutering the amps. To add to this, why the fuck do people bother using other amps in the studio like Engl's and shit if they're just going after THAT tone?

In terms of playability and feel with guitars, diminishing returns start happening WAY before what most people consider viable.

Most people don't stop to experiment with their instruments and equipment before they write it off completely.

People give way too much a damn about inconsequential aspects of a guitar and use that as an excuse to write one off completely (logos such as on the fretboard or headstock).

Many guitarists are spoiled in a world where for the most part, guitars MUCH cheaper are just as playable and sound as good.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I don't understand what people are talking about when they say a particular amp's tone is "boring" or "overused" or whatever. 

It's not the tone guys, it's the songwriting. 

Like, I have no idea how people are "sick of 5150 tone". I could listen to fucking Heartwork every day before I die and still love that tone.


----------



## TheBlackBard

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand what people are talking about when they say a particular amp's tone is "boring" or "overused" or whatever.
> 
> It's not the tone guys, it's the songwriting.
> 
> Like, I have no idea how people are "sick of 5150 tone". I could listen to fucking Heartwork every day before I die and still love that tone.




No difference in songwriting will ever make me love the following again: squish, bwong, jun jun jun. For some reason, I don't hear that out of any other amp, save for the excessive squish out of rectifiers.


----------



## StevenC

Gmork said:


> Lol would never have expected low tier god to show up here lol


Pretty sure that's Nick Young.


----------



## Gmork

StevenC said:


> Pretty sure that's Nick Young.


Oh!?... Looks SO much like a guy called low tier god in the fighting game community! ANYWAY... back on topic


----------



## StevenC

Gmork said:


> Oh!?... Looks SO much like a guy called low tier god in the fighting game community! ANYWAY... back on topic


----------



## Gmork

StevenC said:


>


Really now?!?! Lol, give me a break. NO!, infact they share MANY important features. Same eyes, at times the same hair cut, large tattoo in similar forearm spot. They could legit be siblings. So gtfo with that shit.


----------



## WarMachine

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand what people are talking about when they say a particular amp's tone is "boring" or "overused" or whatever.
> 
> It's not the tone guys, it's the songwriting.
> 
> Like, I have no idea how people are "sick of 5150 tone". I could listen to fucking Heartwork every day before I die and still love that tone.


Exactly. People DGAF about what you are using, they care about the songs. Groove, hook, etc. The _*only *_ones caring about what you are using are the other guitarists at the venue. In 07 i opened for Soil and Drowning Pool and after we got done with our set i had about 8-10 guitarists that came up before us with the "Bruh! What are you using with that 5150??? I've NEVER head one sound like that!". My response, some cheap madison minstrel speakers, a wah out front and delay in the loop. They thought i was bullshitting them


----------



## StevenC

Gmork said:


> Really now?!?! Lol, give me a break. NO!, infact they share MANY important features. Same eyes, at times the same hair cut, large tattoo in similar forearm spot. They could legit be siblings. So gtfo with that shit.


I'm just messing with you. I'm really only here to quote Community and, if I'm forced to, talk about guitars.


----------



## Gmork

StevenC said:


> I'm just messing with you. I'm really only here to quote Community and, if I'm forced to, talk about guitars.


Lol jeezus... Ya jerk  ok GUITARS!


----------



## Emperoff

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists will go on and on about how an amp or modeler "lacks dynamics" or how a clean channel is "too harsh" and then talk about how they wish their guitars didn't have volume or tone controls.


----------



## youngthrasher9

MaxOfMetal said:


> Guitarists will go on and on about how an amp or modeler "lacks dynamics" or how a clean channel is "too harsh" and then talk about how they wish their guitars didn't have volume or tone controls.


I’m a death/thrash metal guy generally. I’ve never encountered an amp or humbucker guitar (sans tele style bridges), that I found uncontrollably bright/harsh. I put a 500k pot in my poplar body baritone guitar after a year of 1meg and that was the closest I’ve ever been to “taming” brightness.


----------



## BenjaminW

Sustainer pickups should be more common on guitars. 



TedEH said:


> I've always had this theory that "this amp needs to be loud to sound good" is code for "this amp doesn't sound good, but it's very loud, and past a certain volume all amp character is drowned in unintelligible noise anyway".


I was expecting my 2203 to only sound good cranked, but it does really well on 2 as long as I attenuate it by 3 dB or so.


----------



## Emperoff

Gmork said:


> Gonna take it one more step and say tone knobs AND volume knobs are useless. Always planned for my next custom to have nothing but a kill switch.



Don't forget to do the same on your amp. Noithing better than a killswitch with OFF-FULLBLAST mode!


----------



## Gmork

Emperoff said:


> Don't forget to do the same on your amp. Noithing better than a killswitch with OFF-FULLBLAST mode!


LOLOLOL 
Hey guys, wanna check out my new amp! Ill just plug in.. Aaaaannnd... BOOOOM!


----------



## WarMachine

Emperoff said:


> Don't forget to do the same on your amp. Noithing better than a killswitch with OFF-FULLBLAST mode!


I got one of those.

It's called a 5150, they are pretty badass, or so I hear.


----------



## budda

StevenC said:


> I'm just messing with you. I'm really only here to quote Community and, if I'm forced to, talk about guitars.


He got into the no-no juice.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Fender and Gibson doesn't need to release anything "new" or "innovative". Y'all just want a dumb reason to hate on popular shit. They probably make most of their money selling vintage reissue or vintage-spec stuff.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Fender and Gibson doesn't need to release anything "new" or "innovative". Y'all just want a dumb reason to hate on popular shit. They probably make most of their money selling vintage reissue or vintage-spec stuff.


Gibson has earned their ire online, but Fender I don't really get.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Gibson has earned their ire online, but Fender I don't really get.



Yeah Gibson does deserve ire for other reasons. But them making more of what sells? Nah. 

Fender... Shrug. You can call it "resting on your laurels." I call it "not making New Coke."


----------



## LostTheTone

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah Gibson does deserve ire for other reasons. But them making more of what sells? Nah.
> 
> Fender... Shrug. You can call it "resting on your laurels." I call it "not making New Coke."



Fender don't even make shit with humbuckers in, so are obviously not a real guitar company in any meaningful sense. 

And seriously, if one of your flagship models is the terminally disappointing Jazzmaster maybe a little bit of a shake up is necessary. 

Sure, no-one likes New Coke, but if Coke Classic originally had asbestos, broken glass and the zika virus in it then maybe a tiny little change to a new formulation would be positive for all involved.


----------



## technomancer

It's hilarious seeing people not realize EVH, Jackson, Charvel, and Fender are all the same company...


----------



## LostTheTone

technomancer said:


> It's hilarious seeing people not realize EVH, Jackson, Charvel, and Fender are all the same company...



Shut your whore mouth.


----------



## technomancer

LostTheTone said:


> Shut your whore mouth.



Guess I struck a nerve


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

technomancer said:


> Guess I struck a nerve


LTT is about to throw down, Techno. I'd be careful walking around corners for the next day or two.


----------



## technomancer

Spaced Out Ace said:


> LTT is about to throw down, Techno. I'd be careful walking around corners for the next day or two.



It's a long trip from the UK


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

technomancer said:


> It's a long trip from the UK


He travels through space and time, or some such Ultimate Warrior type shit.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Through the power of DESTRUCITY


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Through the power of DESTRUCITY


I think for the most part, his Dark Side episode was kind of weak compared to some of the others they've either covered, or could have covered. You had a guy sexually assault a woman on a plane, a guy kill or possibly kill people in addition to other crimes, you had a guy who likely showed up months before his death possibly high as a kite or drunk as a skunk, a guy whose not been covered but featured and said horrendous racial shit (as well as possibly more), etc. Warrior said some mean things online, cheated on his wife (who didn't in WWF?), and was a giant pain in the ass to work with who didn't want to learn the craft. Sounds like people with a vendetta if you ask me. 

To clarify, I think what Warrior was quoted as saying was horrible, and he could've said it much better in whatever attempt he was trying to make a "point." I love Warrior, but that shit was disgusting. He could've gotten the same point across while still not coming across as a complete dolt.

As for the few things I highlighted, I could've gone on a lot more. I just feel like the Warrior episode was mostly a nothing-burger that could've been covered in an overall episode involving wrestlers who have said dumb ass nonsense (Hogan, for instance, who still deserves to get the Yapapi Indian Strap numbers ONE and TWO for that, mind you).


----------



## odibrom

WTF are you guys talking about?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

odibrom said:


> WTF are you guys talking about?


Nuh-thin. Ah dirt-eh werrd. Nex qwesh-un.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah Gibson does deserve ire for other reasons. But them making more of what sells? Nah.
> 
> Fender... Shrug. You can call it "resting on your laurels." I call it "not making New Coke."



Fender does that exact same shit everyone hates on Gibson for: they buy smaller companies for IP and run them into the ground, threaten to sue and sue folks all the time, are massively in debt, etc. 

They just get a pass.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

"Ergonomic" guitars aren't anymore ergonomic than a good jazzmaster or x/star shape ime.


----------



## Emperoff

Ergonomic guitars = things that won't fit on a stand


----------



## Gmork

Gonna hop in here with a SQUIERS ARE AWESOME!


----------



## BenjaminW

Gmork said:


> Gonna hop in here with a SQUIERS ARE AWESOME!


I mean I always prefer Fender to Squier and Gibson to Epiphone, but my Squier that I've had for almost as long as I've been playing has been a really great playing guitar. Obviously, there's a lot to it I wanna change on it, but I feel like I'd be losing out on already great guitar if I made any significant changes to it (if that makes sense).


----------



## youngthrasher9

KnightBrolaire said:


> "Ergonomic" guitars aren't anymore ergonomic than a good jazzmaster or x/star shape ime.


Huge +1.

My death kelly build is comfy sitting or standing in both classical and “contemporary” positions.


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin

My Indonesian made se plays just as well my Korean imports and has no finish flaws, each of the Korean ones do.


----------



## ekulggats

Unpopular opinion-

A well resonating Solid body guitar is more important than good pickups.

oooh yeah 'magnets, how do they work' huhuhuh. Hear me out though.

I've owned/tried up to 3 of the same model guitars, down to the color. Would buy one, couldn't get it sounding like I wanted. Swapped pickups multiple times- JB, Duncan Custom, P-Rail and Distortion- flat, lifeless. Bought another of the same. Sounds great, no name stock pups. Put the Distortion in that one- boom. Phenomenal.

Even 1000+dollar guitars. Regardless of bridge type, Even Floyd guits can sound drastically different.

Before you say anything, I'm a luthier of 14 years, have done setups, fretwork, woodwork etc for money. Pickup height, bridge height, action etc were set ideally. Some guitars just don't have the right 'bounce' etc. Like, hitting the strings in normal play isn't getting the guitar 'moving' and resonating like it should- the strings are attached to the guitar, and therefore subject to all it's movement and resonance, you hear it through the pickups.


----------



## odibrom

I'll say that a guitar's fret, neck, nut and bridge setup are THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTORS for any good sounding guitar, simply because these are the ones that "manage" the strings' vibration quality.

Only then come the pickup/electronics and wood talk... The strings' vibration geometry rules above all else by far.


----------



## IwantTacos

ekulggats said:


> Unpopular opinion-
> 
> A well resonating Solid body guitar is more important than good pickups.
> 
> oooh yeah 'magnets, how do they work' huhuhuh. Hear me out though.
> 
> I've owned/tried up to 3 of the same model guitars, down to the color. Would buy one, couldn't get it sounding like I wanted. Swapped pickups multiple times- JB, Duncan Custom, P-Rail and Distortion- flat, lifeless. Bought another of the same. Sounds great, no name stock pups. Put the Distortion in that one- boom. Phenomenal.
> 
> Even 1000+dollar guitars. Regardless of bridge type, Even Floyd guits can sound drastically different.
> 
> Before you say anything, I'm a luthier of 14 years, have done setups, fretwork, woodwork etc for money. Pickup height, bridge height, action etc were set ideally. Some guitars just don't have the right 'bounce' etc. Like, hitting the strings in normal play isn't getting the guitar 'moving' and resonating like it should- the strings are attached to the guitar, and therefore subject to all it's movement and resonance, you hear it through the pickups.


----------



## WarMachine

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He travels through space and time, or some such Ultimate Warrior type shit.


"SPEAK TO ME WARRIORS!!!"


----------



## STRHelvete

Les Paul pickguards look amazing on Dean MLs..at least certain ones.


----------



## Adieu

STRHelvete said:


> Les Paul pickguards look amazing on Dean MLs..at least certain ones.



Dean ML's can't get any worse anyway... although I'd rather see Hello Kitty and pink rhinestones.


----------



## STRHelvete

Adieu said:


> Dean ML's can't get any worse anyway... although I'd rather see Hello Kitty and pink rhinestones.


Dude I would LOVE a rhinestone covered ML.

I know how to stone things...my old drag queen days came in handy. I could get some good AB stones and do it but it'd take forever...and it'd be super heavy. Goddamnit now I wanna have someone stone an ML for me


----------



## WarMachine

One of these days i need to pick up another ML, cheap, used and beat up. And then try the cracked glass top cover like you see in the Save Me video from Damage Plan. That guitar is sexy AF, ML's fuggin' rule.


----------



## BenjaminW

Reverse headstock Strats should be more common.


----------

