# Poly-Rhythms



## maliciousteve (Dec 14, 2006)

So how did some of you guys learn polyrhythms? I find it quite hard to get my head around the concept.

Any wisdom will be appreciated


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## Hexer (Dec 14, 2006)

I just experiment a lot
I dont have written any complete poly-rythmic songs yet, but quite a few parts (and some of them may even fit together). a few things are even poly-metric, but here it gets even more fucked up lol

a lot of that stuff got written by messing around in GP5 kinda like "what happens if I....?" "now what would that sound like?" and just trying out some weird ideas

its funny sometimes when I play some riff on guitar in some odd time-signature and someone says "that was poly-rythmic, right?" NO, it wasnt! you cant play poly-rythms on guitar (well, you probably could if you use finger-picking). the only instrument that you can REALLY play poly-rythms on is drums. with every other instrument you need other instruments (or a whole band) to do it


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## Lozek (Dec 14, 2006)

Hexer said:


> the only instrument that you can REALLY play poly-rythms on is drums. with every other instrument you need other instruments (or a whole band) to do it



Not really, as long as it's an instrument that you use polyphonically (ie produce more than one note seperately) then there is potential to create two melody lines which counteract each other polyrhythmically. It would be tricky but potentially possible on a guitar, it's most certainly possible on a keyboard.


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## Drew (Dec 14, 2006)

You can also play polyrhythms between more than one instrument - say, a drum part in straight 8ths while the guitar plays triplet quarters over the top. 

What I was taught in theory class was to find a way to count them in a common metric system. For example, for the 3-against-4 example above, count it in 12: 

1--------2-------3----------
*1*-2-3-4-*5*-6-7-8-*9*-10-11-12
1-2-3-*4*-5-6-*7*-8-9-*10*-11-12
1-----2------3-----4-------


So, if you're counting the quarters, do a fast three count between notes - ONE two three, TWO two three THREE two three, FOUR two three. Then, simply move the second note back once every time - hit it at the same time the first time, hit it on the two the next time, the three the third time, and then skip the fourth and then repeat back on the one.


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## maliciousteve (Dec 14, 2006)

Thanks Drew that helps out quite a bit


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## Rick (Dec 14, 2006)

Drew said:


> You can also play polyrhythms between more than one instrument - say, a drum part in straight 8ths while the guitar plays triplet quarters over the top.
> 
> What I was taught in theory class was to find a way to count them in a common metric system. For example, for the 3-against-4 example above, count it in 12:
> 
> ...



 

I think I'll take music theory in the summer.


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## Lozek (Dec 14, 2006)

Drew said:


> What I was taught in theory class was to find a way to count them in a common metric system.



Exactly. In pure mathematical terms, it's a Lowest Common Denominator.


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## Drew (Dec 14, 2006)

Lozek said:


> Exactly. In pure mathematical terms, it's a Lowest Common Denominator.



 

Perfectly put. 

Theory rules, Rick. This might have been in a composition class, but really the line between the two is pretty thin.


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## JoryGriffin (Nov 29, 2008)

The way I do it is to tab it and play along to it to make sure you're playing it perfectly. I don't count beats, I just try and find a groove. Every sig has one, just some are much harder to find.


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## Trespass (Nov 29, 2008)

I listen to how industrial/factories sound, and try to replicate it and find the time sig. The noises machines make are usually all great uses for polyrhythms, and listening to how the different noises interact can develop your ear for what polyrhythms work to generate certain sounds. 

I started with simple 5/4 stuff like Hiromi's XYZ, or Emerson Lake and Palmer's Tarkus, Brubeck's Blue Rondo A La Turk, and then into Meshuggah, Bulb, and listening to industrial soundscapes.

But I'm hardly any good at it


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 29, 2008)

Drew said:


> You can also play polyrhythms between more than one instrument - say, a drum part in straight 8ths while the guitar plays triplet quarters over the top.
> 
> What I was taught in theory class was to find a way to count them in a common metric system. For example, for the 3-against-4 example above, count it in 12:
> 
> ...



 

Also, here Ancient Traditions -- Future Possibilities: Rhythmic Training Through the Traditions of Africa, Bali, and India

This is a really cool manual for rhythmic training. It has some really interesting concepts, starting with African polyrhythm. 

It builds it up from divisive and additive rhythms then to some basic polyrhythms with them. At the end it gives some examples of freakin' complicated African music.

What Drew gave an example of is called a birhythm, and the same concept can be used for any birhythm, though it gets pretty tough with stuff like 5:7, which requires 35 pulses to be counted! 

Also, the book covers interlocking Balinese music and Southern (Carnatic) and Northern (Hindustani) rhythmic traditions. 

There are some badass musical traditions out there! 

As for my personal dealings with polyrhythms, I typically relegate them to the drums in my compositions, and I don't use them all the time. 

Still, it's fun as all hell to learn some of them and tap them out with your hands. 

Dig this:


Awesomeness.


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## defender of faith (Dec 29, 2008)

Hi!
This is my first post, so greetings to everyone. I found some stuff on polyrythms that in my opinion might be useful for uderstanding the subject:
Vai.com > Little Black Dots > Tempomental


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## MikeH (Dec 29, 2008)

JoryGriffin said:


> The way I do it is to tab it and play along to it to make sure you're playing it perfectly. I don't count beats, I just try and find a groove. Every sig has one, just some are much harder to find.



Such as this one:


After the Burial - Pi: The Mercury God of Infinity

"Pi was written and recorded only a few days before the completion of the Master copy, at around 10 am, with a couple of serious hangovers. Justin and I had talked about having a classical guitar intro into some sort of heavier riffage, but we weren't quite sure what that was exactly going to be.

We remembered back to a few weeks prior, when we were throwing around an idea of using the mathematical constant Pi, and incorporating it into some sort of complex breakdown pattern where the kick drum corresponded to each number as the figure progressed. Kinda creating the ultimate mind boggler of a riff. The complexity of the intro is often overheard, because it's hard to discern what is actually going on within the track, UNTIL NOW!!!

Here's a breakdown of the....um, breakdown, in the intro to our album, "Pi: The Mercury God Of Infinity"

The actual tempo is 120 beats per minute (bpm). You can hear this by listening for the closed hi-hat that is panned left: it is playing constant eighth-notes.

The snare is on beat three in 4/4 time at 120 bpm.

A crash cymbal accents beat one of the first measure in 4/4. It is repeated every four measures.

Now this is where it gets tricky: the china cymbal.

It's hard to feel the breakdown in Pi at 120 bpm, and this is mostly due to the china cymbal, which is playing a 4 over 3 (4/3) dotted-eighth note ostinato that begins on the "E" of one.



Confused?



Check it out: A quarter note is equal to one beat in 4/4 time, but so are two eighth notes, or 4 sixteenth notes. It's all about subdividing note values.

When you count a measure of 4/4 in quarter notes, it's: 1, 2, 3, 4.

When counting in eighth notes, it's: 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 +. (a plus sign refers to the spoken count "and" ex. "One and two and three and four and")

When counting in sixteenths, it's: 1 E + A 2 E + A 3 E + A 4 E + A. (Spoken: "One e and a two e and a three e and a four e and a)

So when I say the china starts on the "E" of one, I'm referring to the spoken counting value assigned to the second 16th note in a quarter note duration.

A dotted eighth note is a duration of three 16th notes, an ostinato is a persistently repeated pattern. Basically, the china plays on the bold-capitalized letters:

one E and a TWO e and A three e AND a four E and a ONE e and A etc.



Starting to get it? Cool.



At last, the reason Pi is what it is: the Double-bass pattern.

The formula of Pi for the kick drum was pretty far fetched at first, but seemed to work well once the track was finished. The numbers and rests in the formula translate to 16th notes on the kick drum, and 16th note rests. There is no kick drum beats where there are snare drums. Sooo, here it is:

With the decimal point BEFORE the number, and starting with the first number, move that many decimal points to the right and insert that many 16th note rests. Use one 16th note rest to divide the numbers you passed (when applicable). Continue on throughout the rest of the figure. No repeats.

So basically for the first step, you'd place the point (pt) before the first number, three: (pt)3.14159265

Next you jump the decimal three points to the right: 3.14(pt)159265

That's where you insert three 16th rests, and insert one 16th note rest between the other numbers you passed: 3(16th rest)1(16th rest)4(dotted-eighth)159265

Now, your decimal lies in between the 4 and the 1. So, following the formula, you move one point to the right of the 1 and insert one 16th note rest. There are no numbers to separate with single 16th rests, so you move onto the next number, which is 5, and follow the same instructions.




That's all there is to it! The formula extends out to 71 decimal points"


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## auxioluck (Dec 29, 2008)

Oddly enough, I don't count polyrhythms in a music theory sense.

I count polyrhythms in impacts, in groups of 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's, 5's, 6's, etc....Sounds weird, what I mean is that I count my pick patterns in groups like that. For example, I will pick a pattern thinking of it like this, with the number being the number of pick strokes: 

1, 4, 2, 4, 3, 4, 1, 4, 2, 4, 4, 4. All with a quarter, eighth, or sixteenth note rest in between each group.

I typically view polyrhythms as pattern recycling. As in, you play a pattern repeatedly until it matches back up with the "1" of the 4/4. Like, the group played above, with modification at the end, will end up matching with a 4/4 at the end of it. A shorter pattern may need to be played 2 or 3 times total until it matches back up. This gives that uncomfortable feeling in the middle of it, where it doesn't really feel like it matches up. 

I revolve all my picking process around a pulse, typically eighth notes of a 4/4. This is how I follow the rests and groups.

I don't know if that makes any sense at all, but that's how I count them.


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## jem_legacy (Jan 1, 2009)

Drew said:


> Perfectly put.
> 
> Theory rules, Rick. This might have been in a composition class, but really the line between the two is pretty thin.



Music has to be in conjunction with mathematics, almost all physicists use music to explain the particles of quantum physics, or even theories such as the string theory. And it's all interpreted within the unknown unconsciousness through forces it cannot understand.



TonalArchitect said:


> Also, here Ancient Traditions -- Future Possibilities: Rhythmic Training Through the Traditions of Africa, Bali, and India
> 
> This is a really cool manual for rhythmic training. It has some really interesting concepts, starting with African polyrhythm.
> 
> ...




This guy just broke it down to two bricks and built it up from there, I finally understand there is a method if someone knows how to do it.



defender of faith said:


> Hi!
> This is my first post, so greetings to everyone. I found some stuff on polyrythms that in my opinion might be useful for uderstanding the subject:
> Vai.com > Little Black Dots > Tempomental




Even better, its always the eastern philosophies that make that much more sense on this side of the planet. Love it, might get the DVD sometime soon now.


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## errnestoo (Jan 1, 2009)

Trespass said:


> I listen to how industrial/factories sound, and try to replicate it and find the time sig. The noises machines make are usually all great uses for polyrhythms, and listening to how the different noises interact can develop your ear for what polyrhythms work to generate certain sounds.
> 
> I started with simple 5/4 stuff like Hiromi's XYZ, or Emerson Lake and Palmer's Tarkus, Brubeck's Blue Rondo A La Turk, and then into Meshuggah, Bulb, and listening to industrial soundscapes.
> 
> But I'm hardly any good at it



Omg emerson lake and palmer own all prog!!!!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 3, 2009)

errnestoo said:


> Omg emerson lake and palmer own all prog!!!!



ELP is awesome. Show me another rock band that uses clusters and bitonality like they do... and you've probably shown me VDGG. 

I recently tried putting rhythms into Finale and playing them back to get the feel, but it's kind of tedious. To do 5 against 7, you have to put a signature value of 35.


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## morbidangel87 (Jun 12, 2009)

polyrhythms are pretty easy play any two clashing time signatures together for example 13/4 to 4/8. My band uses these quite alot i love how fuckedup the rhythm comesout lol but it works so good.


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## alex103188 (Jun 16, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> ELP is awesome. Show me another rock band that uses clusters and bitonality like they do... and you've probably shown me VDGG.
> 
> I recently tried putting rhythms into Finale and playing them back to get the feel, but it's kind of tedious. To do 5 against 7, you have to put a signature value of 35.



Technically instead of using a signature value of 35, couldn't you just have a value of 5 quarter notes? You could put the quarter notes in groups of seven for both counts, and for the 5 pulse play every 7th note (obviously), And for the 7 you could play every 5th note. 

Obviously the value of 35 helps to understand it but the other way fits it in a more manageable fashion for transcribing...

Correct me if I'm wrong though I only took AP music in HS like 3 years ago. hahaha


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 16, 2009)

morbidangel87 said:


> polyrhythms are pretty easy play any two clashing time signatures together for example 13/4 to 4/8.





polyrhythms are actually incredibly simple, polymeters on the other hand are something altogether different.


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## Excalibur (Jun 16, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> polyrhythms are actually incredibly simple, polymeters on the other hand are something altogether different.


Pretty much said what I came in here to say.


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