# Are Kiesel guitars worth if you live in EU?



## lurè (Oct 25, 2018)

A couple of months ago I used to hate headless instrument but now I'm planning on buying one and I'm gasing very hard for a Vader multiscale 8 string.

The scale lenght and fan is perfect for my needs and I don't want any fancy top or finishes (their prices are insane). 
I was considering a 3 piece wenge-purpleheart and a mahogany or alder body with a solid color finish: nothing crazy.

My biggest concern is that I'll have to pay about 400/500€ of pure taxes for a 1500/1600 € of the total price of the instrument.

The other options available in EU are Strandbergs which are more expensive and the endurneck is not my cup of tea, or going for custom shop instrument which is even more expensive.

My question is: should I still go for a Kiesel or is better to save up and add those 1k for a custom instrument?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 25, 2018)

Taking the hit on price might be worth it to go with Kiesel. Yeah, it sucks $500 is purely to get it, that's probably going to be ~30% the cost of the whole guitar, but I'd say most Kiesels play at the same level as most $2k guitars so it's not like you're getting totally hosed. You're just not getting as good of a deal. 

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, doesn't the EU have consumer protection laws that allow you to refuse/return a defective item regardless of the seller's policy? If so, it seems it would be a pretty safe bet to give Kiesel a chance.


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## lurè (Oct 25, 2018)

Yes it's about 26% of the total price, it's not the best deal but it's still cheaper then other EU alternatives.
A custom shop, would probably be a waste since I don't need crazy features.

Regarding the consumer protection laws, I'm not completely sure they apply if you buy outside the EU territory, I'll have to check them out.

Considering all the kiesel horror stories, do I have more chances of not getting scammed if I stick to simple features?


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## Flappydoodle (Oct 25, 2018)

First question, have you actually PLAYED an 8 string headless multi scale?

It's pretty hard to judge how it will feel by pictures alone. I've had numerous times when I've had GAS for a particular guitar which then disappeared within minutes of actually playing it.

That would be quite a risk to order a custom instrument without having a good idea of what you like.

Second question, have you checked the return policy? As @MaxOfMetal says, the EU does have distance selling regulations, but you need to see whether that includes imported items which are not sold by an EU retailer. I suspect that the law only applies to items sold within the EU.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 25, 2018)

lurè said:


> Considering all the kiesel horror stories, do I have more chances of not getting scammed if I stick to simple features?



Every option you add brings with it another opportunity for something to go wrong. 

That goes for just about all makers though. 

Not to mention, the more options the higher the price the more taxes will be assessed.


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## CerealKiller (Oct 25, 2018)

I'm pretty sure EU regulations don't cover you when importing yourself. You also wont get back the VAT if you should return it, and shipping costs back to the US could be high.


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## C_Henderson (Oct 25, 2018)

As far as I know, returns from the EU are still possible but more restrictive. On paper they still accept them in some cases, the 10-day policy is still applied, but knowing there will be an extra shipping time and knowing Kiesel that's another risk to consider.
Also, all shipping and taxes are always at the buyer's expense, even for returns and repairs. So that means no full refunds, no matter what.


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## Seabeast2000 (Oct 25, 2018)

Buy a used one from good Reverb seller or someone here? Reduce risk and save money.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 25, 2018)

price wise? hell no, unless you buy used.
quality wise? yeah I think they're worth importing, but again, I'd recommend going used if possible.
as far as i know kiesel doesn't offer wenge, they do have purpleheart laminates in some necks , but I've never seen wenge on a build.


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## lurè (Oct 25, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> as far as i know kiesel doesn't offer wenge, they do have purpleheart laminates in some necks , but I've never seen wenge on a build.



my bad, I meant walnut not wenge



The906 said:


> Buy a used one from good Reverb seller or someone here? Reduce risk and save money.



Yes it's an option but they're not so easy to find, at least I'm not finding any on Reverb.



Flappydoodle said:


> First question, have you actually PLAYED an 8 string headless multi scale?



No, but my bandmate is buying a Strandberg which I'm gonna try just check how the multiscale feels.
Even if I'm not used to the fanned frets I don't think I'll be completely thrown off by a 1.5" fan, I usually play a 27" 8 string.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 25, 2018)

the vader has a very comfortable fan imo, same with the strandberg, but the neck shapes are verrry different. the vader has more of a d shape similar to say an rg8.


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## lurè (Oct 25, 2018)

Also a used Strandberg goes for around 2k which is the price of a new kiesel vat and taxes included.

I can't compare the two quality wise but, unless I'm completely blown away by the endurneck ( I doubt it since I'm so used to RG necks), I'd rather take the risk and go for a kiesel.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 25, 2018)

lurè said:


> Also a used Strandberg goes for around 2k which is the price of a new kiesel vat and taxes included.
> 
> I can't compare the two quality wise but, unless I'm completely blown away by the endurneck ( I doubt it since I'm so used to RG necks), I'd rather take the risk and go for a kiesel.


the endurneck is very much a love/hate thing. i think it's overly bulky and not very comfortable, and i'm not picky about necks at all.
speaking from personal experience all of my kiesels have been higher quality in terms of fit/finish and factory setup than the bodens i owned.


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## lurè (Oct 26, 2018)

Opinions in lithiums? Are they a swap ASAP pickups or are decent?
I've watched a couple of videos in yt but they gave me the impression they lack a bit on low end, very twangy almost like a single coil


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## C_Henderson (Oct 26, 2018)

You'll find varying opinions. I personally can't stand them, IME they're incredibly bright and shrill, but nothing like a single coil, with no body and a very hollow low end. Definitely among my least favourite pickups I've ever tried.


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## laxu (Oct 26, 2018)

CerealKiller said:


> I'm pretty sure EU regulations don't cover you when importing yourself. You also wont get back the VAT if you should return it, and shipping costs back to the US could be high.



This depends on the country. Here in Finland you can submit a form to customs if you return the guitar and get taxes paid back. Shipping costs will be a big thing though.

I ordered a Kiesel AM7 and paid all the taxes and shipping and I feel I got a guitar worth my money.

I had a love/hate relationship with the Lithium pickups at first but now like them. They are very bright and articulate so they don't have that low mid girth to achieve this but that's kind of what I like about them. They are perfect for funk but you should get familiar with the tone knob to tame the top end. They are good sounding pickups but have a unique sound that you either like or don't. I would not pair them with an ash body.

Strandberg has very good return policy and easy returns if you want to give them a try.


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## lurè (Oct 26, 2018)

In case I want to swap them, which pickup companies have the option of a slanted pickup for a multiscale kiesel? I'm not sure about BKP, I might as well try Instrumental or Elysian pickups.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 26, 2018)

lurè said:


> In case I want to swap them, which pickup companies have the option of a slanted pickup for a multiscale kiesel? I'm not sure about BKP, I might as well try Instrumental or Elysian pickups.


guitarmory, instrumental, elysian all do custom slanted pickups or rewinds. bkp don't make the exact slant that kiesel uses so you'd have to do a baseplate swap in that case.
the lithiums are quite bright, but i actually liked them in my 8 strings compared to my 6 string. my koa 8 string in particular managed to mellow the high end a bit and gave them some nice growl that they lacked in my other 8 string. most people dislike them because they forget that neck throughs are generally going to be brighter than bolt ons (generally speaking more glue joints=brighter sound). The neck woods used in a neck through play a bigger part in making the guitar feel brighter/warmer than with a bolt on.


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## lurè (Oct 26, 2018)

Guitarmory and Elysian have both my attention.

I've heard the Obsidian in a couple of clips and really liked it, it's my type of pickup: not uber modern but still articulate and tight.

Need to check also guitarmory for a pickup with a similar vibe.


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## Maximal (Oct 26, 2018)

Do you have to pay the us vat when importing to the EU plus the EU taxes or the EU import taxes only? If both apply I personally wouldn't go for it and just buy a used os8 or vader if you can find one..


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 26, 2018)

lurè said:


> Guitarmory and Elysian have both my attention.
> 
> I've heard the Obsidian in a couple of clips and really liked it, it's my type of pickup: not uber modern but still articulate and tight.
> 
> Need to check also guitarmory for a pickup with a similar vibe.


I've used the majority of elysian's lineup and they're all excellent pickups imo. The obsidian is a tweaked trident iirc, and the trident I/II and their offshoots are my favorite 8 string pickups. They can do basically anything you throw at them and have the best clarity I've heard from an 8 string pickup besides the x-bar. 
If you're looking for a kind of similar feel from a guitarmory pickup, alnico 8 scud or the orion would be your best bet (though they approach the midrange very differently).


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## lurè (Oct 26, 2018)

Maximal said:


> Do you have to pay the us vat when importing to the EU plus the EU taxes or the EU import taxes only? If both apply I personally wouldn't go for it and just buy a used os8 or vader if you can find one..



You have to pay the vat of your country (mine is 22%) which is applied the moment the shipment reaches your state.
Vat is appllied on the declared custom value which is the price of the object plus shipping plus another small percentage depending on the country you are importing .

A lot of taxes but it's still cheaper then any headless multiscale in EU, unless you find one used.


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## C_Henderson (Oct 29, 2018)

lurè said:


> A lot of taxes but it's still cheaper then any headless multiscale in EU, unless you find one used.



Are you sure? I remember I tried to spec a multiscale Zeus 6 to see how close I could get to the Strandberg Boden Metal (similar woods, finish and Fishmans, though obviously no Endurneck or roasted maple) and it ended up at roughly 2000 € before taxes and shipping (and still no Endurneck or roasted maple). The Boden is roughly 2100 € with taxes and shipping.


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## lurè (Oct 29, 2018)

8 string Boden are about 2500€ in Thomann.

I've tried to spec a Vader 8 multiscale with a walnut-purpleheart neck, mahogany body , thin profile neck and , simple solid finish and luminlay dots charging around 1700€ shipping included. If you add all the taxes is around 2000€.


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## angl2k (Oct 29, 2018)

You can apply for a tax refund if you want to send it back, just send it back as a re-export or something like that (with the proper documents) and you'll eventually get your paid taxes and import fees back. Of course they won't refund the shipping costs.

Personally I wouldn't touch Kiesel with a 10 foot pole, given the business owner's reputation 

Thomann stocks Ormsby, I'm sure they ship to Italy? At least you can send that back if you don't like the guitar. A lot of EU dealers stock Ormsby nowadays. Like this shop:
https://www.guitarguitar.co.uk/product/170409309706006--ormsby-hype-gtr-8-multiscale-natural


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## C_Henderson (Oct 29, 2018)

lurè said:


> 8 string Boden are about 2500€ in Thomann.
> 
> I've tried to spec a Vader 8 multiscale with a walnut-purpleheart neck, mahogany body , thin profile neck and , simple solid finish and luminlay dots charging around 1700€ shipping included. If you add all the taxes is around 2000€.



The finish and pickups are what drive the price up mostly as I'm seeing, those alone are adding almost 500€. I just tried to spec a Vader multi 8 with the specs of the Boden Original 8 and I'm getting 2500€ before shipping and taxes.

Last year I was briefly (as in for a day) tempted to get one with a trem, but when I tried to spec it as I wanted (nothing too fancy aside from a koa top) we'd be talking about a little less than 3000€ everything included. Definitely far too much and I wasn't keen on supporting the brand anyway, so I ended up getting a Strandberg with those specs for less than that and I ended up liking it a lot better.


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## lurè (Oct 29, 2018)

C_Henderson said:


> The finish and pickups are what drive the price up mostly as I'm seeing, those alone are adding almost 500€. I just tried to spec a Vader multi 8 with the specs of the Boden Original 8 and I'm getting 2500€ before shipping and taxes.



I think the trick is to keep it as simple as possible, which is totally fine for me.
I'm more concerned about a comfortable multiscale ( fan below 2") and a nice body shape, overall the quality must be good and at a reasonable price.

If I had to spec a Kiesel similar to a Strandberg and spend 2500€ before shipping and taxes, I might as well go for a custom shop.


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## laxu (Oct 31, 2018)

lurè said:


> I think the trick is to keep it as simple as possible, which is totally fine for me.
> I'm more concerned about a comfortable multiscale ( fan below 2") and a nice body shape, overall the quality must be good and at a reasonable price.



I would try to score a used Skervesen if that's what you want. For an 8-string I feel the 26-28" scale on my Shoggie is more comfortable than the 26.5-28" that was on the Strandberg Boden OS 8 I had. Small difference but it was noticeable. 25.5-27" is spot on for a 7-string IMO.


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## will_shred (Oct 31, 2018)

Wouldn't a custom like a RAN or Mayones be around the same price in the EU?


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## lurè (Oct 31, 2018)

will_shred said:


> Wouldn't a custom like a RAN or Mayones be around the same price in the EU?


Don't know Mayones but with RAN you can easily go beyond 2k for an headless 8 string multiscale.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 31, 2018)

I had to pay 1/3rd of the price last time I imported a guitar and it was a major headache with all the emails, paperwork and phone calls trying to get it through customs. I'd search for a guitar for sale in the EU first before looking outside.


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## juka (Nov 19, 2018)

Had similar concerns before ordering my first Kiesel recently, but everything went perfectly well (and I'm one of those guys where usually everything that can go wrong goes wrong!)
http://sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-kiesel-zeus-7.332198/

Knowing exactly what you want in a guitar and having asked all questions before placing your order helps a lot avoiding any bad feelings towards Kiesel.

Taxes will not be as high as you fear, because you pay the 20% deposit plus the shipping costs at the very beginning right after placing your order and so the bill accompanying your guitar through customs only states the rest.

If you are not sure about the Kiesel pickups, why not order an Osiris or Zeus with the Fishman option?


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## Gadjet (Nov 24, 2018)

I custom ordered a kiesel dcm8 a couple of years ago. The guitar was about 1900$ and I ended up paying 400€ in taxes and import fees. Great guitar, no doubt about it. The only thing I'm not completely happy about is the lithium pickups. They're not bad but I think they lack some definition on the 7th and 8th string.


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## lurè (Nov 24, 2018)

Glad to hear taxes are applied after the 20% deposit.

Lithiums are relative concern: 99% I'm swapping them for an Elysian or Guitarmory set.


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## laxu (Nov 25, 2018)

Gadjet said:


> I custom ordered a kiesel dcm8 a couple of years ago. The guitar was about 1900$ and I ended up paying 400€ in taxes and import fees. Great guitar, no doubt about it. The only thing I'm not completely happy about is the lithium pickups. They're not bad but I think they lack some definition on the 7th and 8th string.



Interesting you would say that because to me if anything the Lithiums lack a bit of low mids which helps their clarity. Don't know if the 8 string version is different from the 7-string in this regard.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 25, 2018)

laxu said:


> Interesting you would say that because to me if anything the Lithiums lack a bit of low mids which helps their clarity. Don't know if the 8 string version is different from the 7-string in this regard.


they're definitely not super clear on the 8th string ime, but that was moreso an issue with my koa vader 8 and not with my maple necked vader 8. The maple one had pretty good clarity down to D1. The very bright high end was more of the persistent issue for me.


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