# Martial Arts



## bostjan (Jun 9, 2006)

I noticed in the hobby thread, a lot of you mentioned martial arts of some sort.

I used to do this as a kid. I got pretty serious about it, then my instructor moved across town and I, as a kid in Detroit, had no transportation. I found a new instructor, but he was way inexperienced and I became frustrated and quit. I picked it up again months later with the intention of getting serious about it once more, with a new style, and a new attitude. Before long (a year or two) my progress halted and I eventually gave up.

Naren and everyone who's serious about Asian culture, I apologize for my lack of knowledge here. Please keep in mind that I know nothing about Asian culture, and that when I say something like "Ju Jitsu," I am, in fact, referring to what Americans call it, and not the real thing.

I started pretty young with Tae Kwon Do, then moved to Tang Soo Do. I found a really good instructor who made his own style out of Ju Jitsu and Judo, with elements borrowed from other schools as well. I really got into it. The classes I liked best were Aikido.

When I went to find a new dojo, I decided to search for "Aikido," since it was the name mentioned by my old teacher a lot, and time we were learning something I thought was cool. Going into this Aikido school of thinking was difficult. There were no longer belts other than white and black, there was a lot more seriousness, and the lessons were more abstract. I struggled, but perservered through the programme. Even though this was a much more authentic experience, my motivation diminished. And then I eventually stopped going.

Part of the deciding factor was when some kid in highschool lunged at me with his fist. Without thinking, I grabbed his wrist and gave a graceful twist of the forarm and "pop!" I hadn't even realized anything had happened until the kid started screaming. Turns out I had popped his shoulder out of the socket and he was in a lot of pain. I apologized to him, even though he swung at me unprovoked, since my reaction was too much. His arm was fine after the gym teacher popped it back in and gave him one of those chemical cooling packs.

I always felt kind of bad about this, since the guy was probably just horsing around, and I was a dick.

Anyway, I went way the fuck off topic already

What martial arts are you guys into?


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## The Dark Wolf (Jun 9, 2006)

Pure and simple. MMA.

Is there anything else? Well, actually, there isn't, as far as effectiveness goes, generally.  But many asian martial arts, and even wrestling and boxing, teach alot about discipline and control. Very cool. I've wrestled in high school and college (just club - Greco and freestyle), studied a bit of judo and BJJ in college, and studied western boxing and Thai kickboxing. I actually know quite a bit about it, studying MMA for the last 5 years, although I don't compete.

I'm also a huge lifelong Bruce Lee fan. I've read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do about 20 times.  He was the originator of mixing styles, that's for sure, and he was the man.


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## bostjan (Jun 9, 2006)

Well, as great as MMA are, if time was not an issue, wouldn't it be best to spend some time focusing on a specific style or perhaps two to gain a deeper understanding of the roots and the strengths of that particular school of thought?

From my experience, though, MMA is more fast-paced, in general, and seems to hold interest longer for people like me.

The thing with the Aikido school i went to, is that the priorities were totally different. Discipline and control were way more important in a general standpoint. At the MMA school, it was like: master an arm strike, master a leg strike, learn a kata, learn to defend your self against such and such a weapon, get a new pretty-colored belt, repeat ad infinitum&#8230; At the Aikido school, it was all about patience and listening carefully. It seemed the learning curve was a little steeper, and there were no concrete incentives to move up in rank, you just did it because you got better. You didn't get better to increase rank, really. Does that make sense?


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## The Dark Wolf (Jun 9, 2006)

Depends. If you're going completely for what's effective, MMA is the closest thing to pure, all-out fighting. Unlike most martial arts, it's been (and is) constantly tested and proved in fight upon fight. In fact, it's not even a discipline per se - it's an amalgamation of _different_ disciplines, and only what works consistently is used. MMA is part boxing, part Muay Thai, part karate/TKD, part judo, part submission wrestling, part amateur wrestling, part Brazilian jiu-jitsu, you name it.

For puire self-defense, MMA is probably the best base. Too much of traditional self-defense was grounded in ancient eastern theory, not in real-world practice. It's why Bruce created such controversy. He knew the direction martial art was heading. He sensed a change in the wind. But start with MMA, and then focus on the tactics you'll need in street situations, especially alot of the "dirty" techniques, and put that with a firm grounding in FIGHT AVOIDANCE/FLIGHT/EMOTIONAL CONTROL type techniques, and you have a winner.

For something like Aikido, it's similar to what ONLY works well, being based almost completely on traditional jujutsu. It's akin to modern BJJ in alot of ways, and even MMA mixed with some self-defense, so it's a practical martial art. But, its emphasis on spiritual development is a HUGE plus to me, for those interested in studying a martial art. O Sensei was very wise, and helped lay the groundwork for a revolutionary approach to martial art, I think. Aikido 

If you're looking ebyond just pure fighting, sure, most disciplines, including boxing and wrestling, can offer some, if not most, of these benefits, I believe.


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## Naren (Jun 9, 2006)

I've practiced Japanese Kenpo karate and Okinawan Go-ju-ryu karate.

I'll agree that MMA is effective, but I don't think it's THE most effective. 

I'm also quite a Bruce Lee fan myself. His style of kung fu was quite interesting. Jeet Kun Do, I believe it's called.

I agree with Bostjan about the Aikido thing. In a lot of Japanese martial arts like Aikido, mindset is just as important (if not more important) than technique.

What I think is pathetic about modern American martial arts is that they have tons and tons of different colored belts that they give to you fast to make you feel like you're quickly proceeding. I've met so many black belts in the US who I could easily beat. Traditionally in Japan, they don't give you a black belt unless you really are a master.

Originally there were only 2 colors: black and white. And, the story I heard behind that was: you start out with a white belt (representing lack of knowledge) and your belt gets dirtier and dirtier as you practice and train until eventually it's black (representing knowledge).

Of course, nowadays pretty much no one takes the true martial artist path, which was training and meditating every single day of your life all day long since the age of 10 or 11. That's one reason why I personally think there aren't that many impressive martial artists around today. I enjoy watching pride and K1, but I think those guys spend a lot more time weight lifting and doing situps, push-ups, etc. than actually training techniques, kata, and learning discipline and control. I think that's the reason why some of these pathetic guys lose in the first round.

Some of the real masters have amazing techniques that leave you astounded and control over their body that you have to see to believe. Bruce Lee himself admitted that he wasn't the best martial artists out there, but he had a lot of skill and an amazing fighting spirit that not a lot of other people had.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jun 9, 2006)

Naren said:


> I'll agree that MMA is effective, but I don't think it's THE most effective.


And the alternative you propose is...?

If we limit effectiveness to what REALLY works in a fight, MMA is clearly thje most effective. MMA is _whatever_ works, in a nutshell. It's not a single style, really. It's the eclectic combination of styles. Really, Eric, c'mon. What else is so rigorously tested and refined? Israeli Krav Maga? Nope. Russian Sambo? Nope. Not even Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. All of the techniques in those systems that work have been assimilated into MMA styles. It's the Borg of fighting.

It combines -
1. Stand-up fighting. Using a traditional western boxing approach mainly (Punching - jab, straight right, left hook, uppercuts, body blows. Also footwork, head/body movement) , it incorporates strong elements of Thai kickboxing (knees, elbows, leg kicks, plum clinch, and headbutts in the old days), some TKD (mostly head kicks, some spinning back kicks), traditional karate (thrusts, strong stances, front kicks), and a little bit of some other styles here and there, depending on the fighter generally.
2. Wrestling/Grappling. Freestyle and Greco-Roman takedowns (leg tackles, trips, upper body throws, suplexes, body locks), Judo throws (hip throws - osoto gari and similar variants are favorites). Ground control, scrambling to escape takedowns, takedown defense (sprawl, pancake, etc.), tie-ups, clinch pummeling, and even strikes and takedowns from the clinch.
3. Submissions. Lots of brazilian jiu-jitsu and judo here. They also draw from sambo, escrima, traditional Greek pankration, jeet kune do, and lots more. Standing submissions, like kimura from the reverse clinch, rolling kneebar, flying armlock, flying triangle choke, tons and tons of ground submissions - chokes, armbars, leglocks. Ground control positions, the guard (best single person fight defensive ground position), guard sweeps, more takedowns, escapes, you name it.

Like I said, when it comes to the most, emphasis _most_, effective fighting system, well, what is employed by the MMA community is it. It incorporates everything you need to be a complete fighter - stand up skills, grappling, and submissions. It's been tested thousands and thousands of times. I myself have seen the development of the Mixed Martial Arts community from its infancy here in the US. Back in the days of so-and-so style versus so-and-so style, watching to see what worked. When something worked, people used it. When it didn't, it got tossed. An evolution of complete fighting. It's the same direction Bruce was heading, the same approach he was developing. He studied fencing, western boxing, tha boxing, freestyle wrestling, judo... he was struggling intellectually for something that was before its time. But he saw the writing on the wall.

Now, if you want to adapt MMA for street defense, a few things must be considered. But the base is there. Nothing even comes close, to be honest, unless you're talking using a weapon. Not my opinion. Just simple fact. Sorry to be so dogmatic, but this is just an area I tend to know a tremendous amount about.

Of course, in my opinion, the MOST effective way to win a fight is to not get in one in the first place. Hence, I'm undefeated since I have turned about 18 or so... since I have not been in one fight since then.


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## Desecrated (Jun 9, 2006)

My mom was a black belt in judo and my uncle in kyokoshinkai karate so I studied under them as a kid but I didnt get really involved untill I started ut with kenjutsu at the age of 7, I took my first black belt at 12, then started shotokan karate took my black belt at 17, started with aikido but never took any belts beacuse I had no need for it. 
I also studied kobudo and muay thai under privat teachers.


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## nitelightboy (Jun 9, 2006)

TDW....

I have to agree with Naren on this one. MMA certainly is very effective for most people, however anyone with a TRUE understanding of their art and an effective astery of it would blow MMA out of the water. The problem is that most people don't take the time. It may be because of work, family obligations, financial restrictions, whatever, but if people trained more, than the traditional styles would be the most effective.

And Chinese arts are more effective than Japanese. Just wanted to throw that one out to piss some people off


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## Toshiro (Jun 9, 2006)

I did some informal Kendo/jitsu and Iaido from a local guy before he moved away. I sold off most of my blades soon after for financial reasons(both live steel and an iai-to), which kinda defeats the whole thing now. I still have my shinai, which is good for killing spiders around the house.  Recently I've been thinking of picking up a couple of Paul Chen's Hanwei company "Practical" blades and getting back into it, but I have no-where to practice that wouldn't involve neighbors calling the cops (and the cops hate people will well forged live steel, because it'll cut kevlar).


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## Regor (Jun 9, 2006)

MMA - specifically, Pride Fighting Championships

That is the best sport on the planet. My buddy's boss and I now order every PPV that comes on, and I record it on DVD to go in my collection (I have every PrideFC DVD released). I love watching this shit. The skill involved with finding a way to beat your opponent to win (not necessarily always slugfesting it out, I love submissions).

BJJ is the shit!


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## Naren (Jun 9, 2006)

nitelightboy said:


> And Chinese arts are more effective than Japanese. Just wanted to throw that one out to piss some people off



I happen to disagree with that. To describe Chinese and Japanese martial arts with one word, Chinese = "soft" and Japanese = "hard." I used to do an Okinawan form of karate called go-ju-ryu which was a combination of Chinese and Japanese styles. It was cool because in one of the katas I did, it'd have a soft block and a soft stance and then suddenly, with no warning, an extremely hard punch, strike, kick, and smash in succession, then a step back into a different soft stance.

As far as sword-based martial arts, Japan completely destroys China. Chinese sword fighting is very undeveloped. Chinese kung fu and kenpo is quite good, but I wouldn't say it's better than Japanese martial arts. Just different.

I also disagree with what Bob is saying about MMA. I think MMA is effective, but, as I already said, I don't think it is "THE most effective." Maybe the most effective for someone who can't dedicate their whole life to the mastery of a traditional martal art, but only can practice in their spare time.


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## Toshiro (Jun 9, 2006)

Naren said:


> As far as sword-based martial arts, Japan completely destroys China. Chinese sword fighting is very undeveloped. Chinese kung fu and kenpo is quite good, but I wouldn't say it's better than Japanese martial arts. Just different.



Nevermind metallurgically, the Chinese only held their territory through the centuries due to sheer numbers. Most of the ancient Japanese swords I've encounted could cut through almost anything, as they were designed. No medival culture perfected the process of making blades the way the Japanese did, not even Spain.

Something like 90% of all unarmed martial arts were designed to defend against the blade.


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## nitelightboy (Jun 9, 2006)

There's no doubt that the Japanese sword arts own everyone else's pathetic attempts at using the weapon.

Overall though, I'd say that Chinese unarmed arts are more efficient and effective, just from my own experiences. But that's my opinion.

And since we're talking about why styles were created, here's a cool one... TKD was created to get people off of horse back and then the fighter would switch to another more effective style once the attacker was off of the horse.


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## Naren (Jun 9, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Nevermind metallurgically, the Chinese only held their territory through the centuries due to sheer numbers. Most of the ancient Japanese swords I've encounted could cut through almost anything, as they were designed. No medival culture perfected the process of making blades the way the Japanese did, not even Spain.
> 
> Something like 90% of all unarmed martial arts were designed to defend against the blade.



That's absolutely true. China had huge numbers, while Japan on the other hand had a very small population, most of which was divided into scattered clans or kingdoms (depending on the time of Japanese history). 

I saw a program where a guy took a 300 year old Japanese sword that hadn't been sharpened in over 50 years and showed how incredibly sharp it still was.

Jujutsu was the martial arts of the samurai, by the way. Ninjutsu was the martial art of spies and assassins (aka ninja). The cool thing about ninjutsu is that it was not developed for protection like most martial arts, but was invented for killing. That's why most ninjutsu attacks are designed to kill the opponent immediately. That's also why it has been outlawed in many countries.


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## Toshiro (Jun 9, 2006)

Naren said:


> That's absolutely true. China had huge numbers, while Japan on the other hand had a very small population, most of which was divided into scattered clans or kingdoms (depending on the time of Japanese history).
> 
> I saw a program where a guy took a 300 year old Japanese sword that hadn't been sharpened in over 50 years and showed how incredibly sharp it still was.
> 
> Jujutsu was the martial arts of the samurai, by the way. Ninjutsu was the martial art of spies and assassins (aka ninja). The cool thing about ninjutsu is that it was not developed for protection like most martial arts, but was invented for killing. That's why most ninjutsu attacks are designed to kill the opponent immediately. That's also why it has been outlawed in many countries.



Yup, they trained in that for those un-armed times, when grappling was the best option. Iaido is hell of a lot of fun, as it's the skill the western gunslinger idea comes from. Kill with the draw of the blade. Didn't really come about until the Edo period though, due to the shortening of the common long sword to that vague 'katana' dimension. 

The Japanese had a pretty great way to kill someone on a horse when you're on the ground. The Nodachi. A sword as long as a man is tall.  

Though after studying Japanese blades, and the way they were forged, I don't believe the 'Ninja-to' commonly seen in anime/movies/etc was ever a used weapon. The very idea of the straightened blade ruins most of the cutting force, castrating the Japanese sword. I find it more likely that they used regular blades, or a slightly longer wakizashi, if they used a sword at all.


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## Naren (Jun 9, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Yup, they trained in that for those un-armed times, when grappling was the best option. Iaido is hell of a lot of fun, as it's the skill the western gunslinger idea comes from. Kill with the draw of the blade. Didn't really come about until the Edo period though, due to the shortening of the common long sword to that vague 'katana' dimension.
> 
> The Japanese had a pretty great way to kill someone on a horse when you're on the ground. The Nodachi. A sword as long as a man is tall.
> 
> Though after studying Japanese blades, and the way they were forged, I don't believe the 'Ninja-to' commonly seen in anime/movies/etc was ever a used weapon. The very idea of the straightened blade ruins most of the cutting force, castrating the Japanese sword. I find it more likely that they used regular blades, or a slightly longer wakizashi, if they used a sword at all.



I've studied Japanese blades quite a bit, as well (I'm a buff on Japanese history). I used to have a book on the history of samurais and ninjas that my cousin gave me (it was like 600 pages long, pretty cool).

The ninja sword really did/does exist. I've seen them in person (ones that are very old). HOWEVER, you are correct in assuming that a lot of ninjas used regular Japanese swords as well. The reason why ninjas tended to use straight blades instead of curved ones had to do with the fact that they carried the blade on their back and not at their side. But ninjas didn't fight with their ninja swords much and, when they did, it was mostly thrusting and not slashing. Remember that a "ninja" is basically an assassin/spy. They usually didn't play fair. They would sneak up behind someone and break their neck or stab them in the spinal cord with a daggar or any other variety of things. Generally when ninjas fought with someone "fairly", they tended to use martial arts (ninjutsu), throwing stars (shuriken), and a variety of other tools of the trade. Obviously japanimation exagerates what they could do, but the ninja sword is a real weapon. There are other straight blades in Japan that weren't used by ninjas, as well. It's just that most ways of forging a blade in Japan (thin layer by layer) naturally curves a blade. The ninja did not generally usue long wakizashis (it was better to use short or regular length weapons). They tended to prefer primarily daggars and "ninja swords", but also used regular Japanese swords as well.

Samurai and regular soldiers on the other hand, always fought against their opponents head on and used regular Japanese swords. The fighting style was obviously very different. A samurai would never run from their opponent, but a ninja wouldn't think twice of running from their opponent if they thought their opponent had the upper hand.


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## Drew (Jun 9, 2006)

Naren said:


> a ninja wouldn't think twice of running from their opponent if they thought their opponent had the upper hand.



But.... Ninjas have REAL ULTIMATE POWER! They're so cool I want to crap my pants. I love them with all of my body, even my pee-pee! One time, a ninja was eating lunch and a man dropped a spoon, and the ninja like totally flipped out and killed everyone, just because! Ninjas don't run!
























Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## nitelightboy (Jun 9, 2006)

Everytime you masturbate, a ninja cuts off a kitten's face

Between Chris and Drew, those kittens are seriously screwed...


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## Naren (Jun 9, 2006)

Drew said:


> But.... Ninjas have REAL ULTIMATE POWER! They're so cool I want to crap my pants. I love them with all of my body, even my pee-pee! One time, a ninja was eating lunch and a man dropped a spoon, and the ninja like totally flipped out and killed everyone, just because! Ninjas don't run!



Although that site was pretty funny, not accurate at all. He could apply all the same things being applied to ninjas to pirates.

I remember the sales section of that site had some pretty funny shirts and coffee mugs.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jun 9, 2006)

Naren said:


> I also disagree with what Bob is saying about MMA. I think MMA is effective, but, as I already said, I don't think it is "THE most effective." Maybe the most effective for someone who can't dedicate their whole life to the mastery of a traditional martal art, but only can practice in their spare time.


That's your opinion, and you have a right to it. 

Consider however. Do you know the origin of Asian martial arts? It was most likely brought to China by buddhist monks, who were in turn influenced by Greek pankration, brought with Alexander the Great's expansion into Indian cultural areas. (Pankration is a Greek term meaning roughly "all-holds", or, one could say, no-holds barred, rather like "ultimate fighting". Ironic? Hardly. In fact, before the term MMA, Mixed Martial Arts, took hold, UFC style fighting was called NHB. No Holds Barred.) Pankration was a very popular Greek combat sport, right along with boxing (Greek boxing was much more like modern Thai boxing) and wrestling, and was even in the ancient Greek olympics.

People have tried every discipline pretty much IN MMA competition, and have seen their prized "system" lose, again and again. But, like I've said, what worked, remained. Bruce Lee was trying to make this same point - dogmatic devotion to one "style" leads inevitably to stagnation. You need the diversity of real world testing and application to grow, and become a complete martial artist. There are many, many, many karate, kickboxing, wrestling, and BJJ guys who've all thought they had it all, that their "style" was supreme, until they stepped into the cage, or the ring. Surprise. And that's what makes MMA so effective. It's all about dedication to no single style, but to anything that works.








Here's a cool article that talks alot about this very subject. Check it out. 

http://www.mmafighting.com/columns/harder/060605.html


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## bostjan (Jun 9, 2006)

Ninja swords? I think a ninja would be 1,000x more likely to kill you with a rock, a hammer, or something easily disposed of. If they had swords, I don't see why they would use them. It'd be evidence, then. Also, why would they wear swords? That would give them away as tough-guys, and kind of ruin their disguise, unless they were disguising themselves as samurai. but then they would wear samurai swords&#8230;not special ninja swords. The whole idea of a "ninja sword" is counter-intuitive and illogical. Did ninjas wear signs around their necks that said "I am ninja?"

The japanese sword is the best hand-to-hand weapon for killing an unarmored or lightly armored enemy. Japanese swords are so great due to many facts

a) Metal ores are rarer in Japan than in the mainland, so if you were going to make something metal, you would make for damn certain that it was worth the expense of the materials.
b) There were a lot of wars in Japan. Land there is scarce and no one wanted to lose their land to invaders, yet there were always invaders. War means weapons. The weapon of the day was the sword.
c) Japanese sword makers were kept an ellite bunch. Very patient and developed. This is partly or mainly due to a and b.

But, as I've said before, Japanese swords were designed to slice people in half. They were not designed to penetrate plate mail. European weaponry was designed for this. Two totally different purposes and styles. A warhammer was designed to poke through a helmet, a flail was designed to poke through a helmet, and most later european swords were designed to umm poke through a helmet. Anyone know what a lance was used for?

Japanese odachi and nodachi were huge fucking swords, but difficult to weild and uncomfortable to carry. They would be pretty much impossible to control indoors, and were pretty damn rare. Nagintas and other pole arms were more often used against cavalry than swords, but it's still cool.


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## bostjan (Jun 9, 2006)

Oh yeah, not to mention middle eastern and indian swords. Most indian swords were designed for reaching around a shield, since shields were more popular than helmets.

But I think everyone agrees that Japanese swords are the best.

Anyone have thoughts on the Indonesian "Kris?" Supposed to be like one of the all-time best swords, too. I've never held one in my hand, though. I've only seen them in museums.


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## forelander (Jun 9, 2006)

I'm currently learning muay thai. I'd argue it's one of the most effective striking styles. My shins are so battered.


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## bostjan (Jun 9, 2006)

That was one thing about my new instructor that made me leave the dojo. I had shin splints because I also was training for seasonal sprinting. I couldn't take the pain of being kicked in the shins, but the instructor had us go full contact with no "no below the belt" rule, and just made the cup manditory. *ow*


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## Shawn (Jun 9, 2006)

My drummer was heavily into martial arts back in the day, me, I have always liked it, never tried it though, I should've. I love martial arts. 

This movie right here has the best martial arts ever.


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## bostjan (Jun 9, 2006)

Master with Broken Fingers was a cool movie, too. But the version I have goes from dubbed, to subtitles, to Chinese with no subtitles. I have no fucking clue what the hell is going on by the end of the movie.


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

bostjan said:


> Ninja swords? I think a ninja would be 1,000x more likely to kill you with a rock, a hammer, or something easily disposed of. If they had swords, I don't see why they would use them. It'd be evidence, then. Also, why would they wear swords? That would give them away as tough-guys, and kind of ruin their disguise, unless they were disguising themselves as samurai. but then they would wear samurai swords&#8230;not special ninja swords. The whole idea of a "ninja sword" is counter-intuitive and illogical. Did ninjas wear signs around their necks that said "I am ninja?"



I think you have an incorrect perception of what a ninja was. They were not like Western assassins/spies like James Bond or Ethan Hunt who would disguise themselves as their enemies (in this case, samurai or the enemy's regular soldiers). They tried to hide from sight completely. Usually they would sneak into a fortress at night when everyone were sleeping.

Although they would use a rock for making noise to distract someone (like in Star Wars), they would definitely not use it for combat. Why not? No certainty of killing the person. If they miss or hit, but fail in killing, then their whole mission may have failed.

I wonder why you find it so hard to believe that they had swords in their inventory. A sword is much more effective in killing someone than a hammer or a rock or a stick.

Of course, wearing a sword on their back would be like a sign saying "I'm a ninja", but the even bigger sign saying "I'm a ninja" is the mask and clothes they wore. If anyone saw a ninja (they probably would be killed before they could see one), they would KNOW it's a ninja by the clothes. They wouldn't say "Hey... that guy wearing the mask, dressed all in black, sneaking over the wall... he's got one of those straight swords strapped to his back... HE MUST BE A NINJA!" 

I think it's funny that you think they'd use something easily disposed of or leave evidence. They carried lots and lots of tools with them, all of which were only used by ninja (such as shuriken - aka throwing stars, which only ninjas used). Also, if they leave evidence, what is that evidence going to do? The master is dead. They know someone snuck in and killed him in the night. Without evidence, they know it was a ninja. With evidence, they know it was a ninja. There was no fingerprinting technology and ninja swords, unlike samurai swords, did not have any marks to signify what group they belonged to.

And then, someone might say "Well, it's stupid that they wore those masks and clothes. Why didn't they sneak in pretending to be a samurai?" That would be a very Western spy/assassin way of doing things. Ninjas never let anyone see their face, so that one ninja was indistinguishable from another.

The term "ninja" and the term "shinobi" both come from the term for sneaking and silently entering a place, unnoticed. They didn't care about a ninja sword being something only a ninja would have. Come on. The verb "shinobu" (the first symbol in "ninja" and the only symbol in "shinobi") means "to hide" in modern Japanese.


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## bostjan (Jun 10, 2006)

But why do they need special swords? I disagree with your history of ninjas. Just sounds too romanticised to me. You don't need fingerprinting technology to identify a killer, in fact, fingerprinting technology is over-rated. If someone is dead and there is a rock with your fingerprints on it, you could just say, yeah, I might have touched that rock, it's a fucking rock, they all look alike. It doesn't mean I used it to kill someone.

Having a special sword, on the other hand, well&#8230;i don't think i even need to repeat myself. Just that it'd be easy to trace that way.

These "ninja swords" you see for sale on-line and w/e are fakes. Most of them are made in China. Probably the same people making those fake Ibbys you see.

I've heard from plenty of sword collectors.

Would a ninja use _a_ sword? Sure, but a _special ninja sword_? You'll never convince me.

Now as for hitting someone in the head with a rock or a hammer not killing them, I think you overestimate the resiliance of the human body. A trained killer could kill an unsuspecting victim with just about any old thing. If you don't believe me, look in the newspaper. People are killed every day by iron pipes, glass bottles, hand tools, etc.


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## The Dark Wolf (Jun 10, 2006)

Man, you guys got some crazy, old school ideas about martial arts, talking about swords and ninjas n' shit.

"Put him in a body bag, Johnny!" 






"I do not need martial art! Look at my dangerous stare! I will kill you with my chi! And my BO is pretty deadly, too!"


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

bostjan said:


> But why do they need special swords? I disagree with your history of ninjas. Just sounds too romanticised to me. You don't need fingerprinting technology to identify a killer, in fact, fingerprinting technology is over-rated. If someone is dead and there is a rock with your fingerprints on it, you could just say, yeah, I might have touched that rock, it's a fucking rock, they all look alike. It doesn't mean I used it to kill someone.
> 
> Having a special sword, on the other hand, well&#8230;i don't think i even need to repeat myself. Just that it'd be easy to trace that way.
> 
> ...



Most of the "katanas" online are fakes that were made in China. Does that mean that they never existed too?

Why do you find it hard to believe that there were swords made for ninjas. There were swords made for everyone else. Throughout Japan's history, there have been hundreds of variations of the sword in size and length.

Sure, you could kill someone with a rock on the head. It's just that most ninjas did not. And don't think some naive master would be like "oh all my guards and my son were killed last night. Must've some wild animal." They knew it was a ninja.

While the swords on this site are all fakes and replicas, the "ninja-tou" about halfway down the page is pretty close to how actual ninja swords look. I say "look" instead of "looked" because ninja swords still exist today (although they are from long ago) and they looked very similar to this. http://www.swordsdirect.com/functional-katanas.html

You keep emphasising "SPECIAL ninja sword" as if it really was that special. It was basically just like a normal Japanese sword, except straight and a little shorter. It's not that special. There were other straight swords in use as well (by regular soldiers).

As a Japanese history buff, I find it odd that you are so stubborn in not believing this. You have a pre-set image of how ninjas were and the ninja sword that is so common in ninja legends, movies, animation, cheapo Chinese remakes, and even the real deal does not fit your minds image. You imagine them using rocks and hammers, which, for the most part, just wasn't the case (I could see a ninja using either of those in the case that they lost their other equipment).

You say it'd be easy to trace a special sword. How? Ninjas never showed their faces to anyone and ninja swords had no marks to show what school/group they belonged to. For all you knew, it could be a ninja sword from Southern Kyushu or a ninja sword from Tohoku (no one lived in Hokkaido during those days, which is why I left at Tohoku). Maybe you're thinking in terms of modern police dramas where they need evidence and then have their investigators trace it and say "Ah, this swordsmith in Edo made the swords for the Kiri Shinobi. And since this one had Amano Nobusuke's fingerprints on it, he's our murderer. Guess we should put him behind bars." Although ninjas were rarely seen, it was known throughout that they were behind certain assassinations and theft of documents. They had no honor, unlike the samurai who lived for honor alone.


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## bostjan (Jun 10, 2006)

That's fine. You know Japanese history. I don't doubt that. 

You can believe what ever you want, and I'll believe that ninjas didn't have special ninja swords and that not everything you hear in a legend or see in a cartoon is true. It doesn't make any difference in anyone's life. If one of your ninjas kills me with a sword, I won't even see it coming, so I still won't believe.


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

bostjan said:


> That's fine. You know Japanese history. I don't doubt that.
> 
> You can believe what ever you want, and I'll believe that ninjas didn't have special ninja swords and that not everything you hear in a legend or see in a cartoon is true. It doesn't make any difference in anyone's life. If one of your ninjas kills me with a sword, I won't even see it coming, so I still won't believe.



I will grant you that most information on ninjas comes from samurai's reports on them and, as a result, there are a lot of unsure things. But, ninjas had been around since the beginning of the Heian period (around 1000 AD), so they have a very long history. 

One weapon ninjas never used but it is commonly believed that they did use is nunchaku (or known to many Americans as "nunchucks").

Here is a quote from Wikipedia:
"In popular folklore, ninja also used special short swords called ninja-ken (or ninja-t&#333; see below for explanation), or "shinobigatana" (Note the avoidance of the term 'ninja', but inclusion of the term shinobi, a synonym). Ninja-ken are smaller than katana but larger than wakizashi. The ninja-to was more of a utilitarian tool than a weapon. Another version of the ninja sword was the shikoro ken (saw sword). The shikoro ken was said to be used to gain entry into fortresses. The shikoro ken supposedly could also be used to cut (or saw) through opponents.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no evidence that the nunchaku were used by the ninja, and there is no mention in any record of them using one. Though their records are filled with references to other weapons. Karate, judo, kendo, and most other martial arts were never practiced as well, as they were mostly formalized in late Edo period to Meiji period. Ninja practiced a variant of jujutsu and kenjutsu that could be summed up as ninjutsu."

There are ninja museums, you know? Such as the Iga-ryu ninja museum.

You have zero reasoning for believing that no such weapon exists. I think you're just trying to be contrary. 

I have never claimed that ninja can disappear or make multiple copies/images of themselves or bring out huge toads or any of the other common legends and myths on ninjas, many of which were created by ninjas themselves in order to scare their enemies.

So, if a ninja kills you, then it's probably your own fault for A: bringing them 400 years into the future, B: bringing them to the otherside of the world, and C: for doing something that would make a daimyo hire them to kill you. So, unless you've done those three things, I don't know why you're so paranoid or believe that I have ninjas out to kill you. 

But, yes, whether they did or not have swords does not have any effect on our lives. In fact, whether cowboys actually carried guns or not has no effect on our lives either. And if someone believes that the world is hollow on the inside with a secret society of moles, that has no effect on their lives either. Okay, that last one was a little bit overboard...


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## forelander (Jun 10, 2006)

I can choose not to believe that my guitar has 7 strings, but that won't change the fact that it does.


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

forelander said:


> I can choose not to believe that my guitar has 7 strings, but that won't change the fact that it does.



Thank you, forelander.


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## Toshiro (Jun 10, 2006)

Naren said:


> I've studied Japanese blades quite a bit, as well (I'm a buff on Japanese history). I used to have a book on the history of samurais and ninjas that my cousin gave me (it was like 600 pages long, pretty cool).
> 
> The ninja sword really did/does exist. I've seen them in person (ones that are very old). HOWEVER, you are correct in assuming that a lot of ninjas used regular Japanese swords as well. The reason why ninjas tended to use straight blades instead of curved ones had to do with the fact that they carried the blade on their back and not at their side. But ninjas didn't fight with their ninja swords much and, when they did, it was mostly thrusting and not slashing. Remember that a "ninja" is basically an assassin/spy. They usually didn't play fair. They would sneak up behind someone and break their neck or stab them in the spinal cord with a daggar or any other variety of things. Generally when ninjas fought with someone "fairly", they tended to use martial arts (ninjutsu), throwing stars (shuriken), and a variety of other tools of the trade. Obviously japanimation exagerates what they could do, but the ninja sword is a real weapon. There are other straight blades in Japan that weren't used by ninjas, as well. It's just that most ways of forging a blade in Japan (thin layer by layer) naturally curves a blade. The ninja did not generally usue long wakizashis (it was better to use short or regular length weapons). They tended to prefer primarily daggars and "ninja swords", but also used regular Japanese swords as well.
> 
> Samurai and regular soldiers on the other hand, always fought against their opponents head on and used regular Japanese swords. The fighting style was obviously very different. A samurai would never run from their opponent, but a ninja wouldn't think twice of running from their opponent if they thought their opponent had the upper hand.



Well, there goes that theory.  None of them make it over here though, and I've seen some pretty nice ancient sword collections. It just seemed to me to be sort of pointless to carry something like that around, ya know? Considering that the best cutting place on a 'katana' like sword is a few inches down from the tip, and extents into the curve. Oh well. 

Most of the straight-bladed Japanese swords I've seen have been similar to chinese designs, and pre-900.

Anime exagerates everything. Can anyone here into the martial arts throw a 'visible' Ki-blast?


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Well, there goes that theory.  None of them make it over here though, and I've seen some pretty nice ancient sword collections. It just seemed to me to be sort of pointless to carry something like that around, ya know? Considering that the best cutting place on a 'katana' like sword is a few inches down from the tip, and extents into the curve. Oh well.
> 
> Most of the straight-bladed Japanese swords I've seen have been similar to chinese designs, and pre-900.
> 
> Anime exagerates everything. Can anyone here into the martial arts throw a 'visible' Ki-blast?



Indeed. Actually all Japanese swords before 900 AD were straight. Like I said, the "new" method of sword making which came out some time like 1100 or 1200 AD (don't remember exactly when) had the naturally curving property, which soldiers really liked.

You mention that it seems pointless for ninjas to carry swords like that. And for some ninjas it was pointless to carry something like that, which is why a lot of them didn't. It was only one of an array of weapons ninja used to "get the job done." Also, the wikipedia article said that the ninja-ken/ninja-to "was more of a utilitarian tool than a weapon."

Animation does exaggerate everything, but all of the crazy stuff regarding ninjas in animation is based on legends, myths, folkstories, mixed with real history. Many martial arts taught their students that a truly strong martial art's "ki" could be seen if you focused on it. Animation took that to the extreme making characters with huge colored "ki"s that anyone could see that they'd use like fire. There usually is some real basis behind stuff in animation, but they take things so far that it's hard to see where they got such a ridiculous idea much of the time (like blood shooting out of a guy's nose when he sees a girl naked. You can see where that came from, but it never happens in real life).

I also think that the best place in a Japanese blade is on the side near the tip. 

And, one of the reasons none of the real ninja swords make it to the US is the same reason that none of the real normal Japanese swords make it over to the US. All the Japanese swords that come to the US are remakes and models, not actual antiques. There are some ninjutsu schools still around that fight using old ninja weapons. If someone in the US has a 300 year old "katana," they are probably a collector and paid quite a bit of money to obtain it.


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## Toshiro (Jun 10, 2006)

Naren said:


> Indeed. Actually all Japanese swords before 900 AD were straight. Like I said, the "new" method of sword making which came out some time like 1100 or 1200 AD (don't remember exactly when) had the naturally curving property, which soldiers really liked.
> 
> You mention that it seems pointless for ninjas to carry swords like that. And for some ninjas it was pointless to carry something like that, which is why a lot of them didn't. It was only one of an array of weapons ninja used to "get the job done." Also, the wikipedia article said that the ninja-ken/ninja-to "was more of a utilitarian tool than a weapon."
> 
> ...



Eh, I'm talking about private collections, not the stuff at a gun and knife show.  A lot of family blades came back with GI's at the end of WWII. I'm just saying in all the collections I've seen in person, an ancient ninja blade was not there. 

But seriously, the only stuff I have now are wall-hanger stainless steel garbage. I miss my Bugei blade.  I think a Hanwei might be able to fill the void without eating the rent money.


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Eh, I'm talking about private collections, not the stuff at a gun and knife show.  A lot of family blades came back with GI's at the end of WWII. I'm just saying in all the collections I've seen in person, an ancient ninja blade was not there.
> 
> But seriously, the only stuff I have now are wall-hanger stainless steel garbage. I miss my Bugei blade.  I think a Hanwei might be able to fill the void without eating the rent money.



Ah, I see. But seeing how rare ninjas themselves were (Even though, throughout the history of ninjas, there have been over 100 ninja styles/schools, there have never been that many ninjas at one time. I don't know the statistics, but something small like 1 ninja for every 10,000 soldiers), it doesn't suprise me that GIs wouldn't bring back a blade. I think a good deal of them are in ninja museums, Japanese ninjutsu schools, and places like that. A kendo/kenjutsu practitioner would generally not own a ninja sword or even want one. 

Well, as long as you don't intend to actually use the sword to fight people, you can get some pretty good looking ones that are well balanced for kind of cheap ($100-300). They may not be sharp. But looks are all that matters nowadays, anyway.


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## Toshiro (Jun 10, 2006)

Yeah, still I'd prefer something sharpened.  It's not like I'll be walking around town with it, this isn't *Yojimbo*.  Would really break the 3" blade law here with that. Folded steel is out of my price range now, so something like Hanwei's Practical Plus sounds like a good idea. The Musashi set calls to me though.... Must.... fight.... urge....

There's some serious nice stuff floating around in small pockets here in the US. Some of the soldiers in WWII would take their family blade and have it mounted in the standard military issue handle/scabbard. From the outside they looked like every other stamped steel sword carried by the infantry, but inside were gems. Fred Lohman(probably not spelling this right, it's been like 10 years) out in the North west specializes in re-mounting blades in more traditional appointments for collectors and martial artists. I bet he makes a good living.


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Yeah, still I'd prefer something sharpened.  It's not like I'll be walking around town with it, this isn't *Yojimbo*.  Would really break the 3" blade law here with that. Folded steel is out of my price range now, so something like Hanwei's Practical Plus sounds like a good idea. The Musashi set calls to me though.... Must.... fight.... urge....



Folded steel is very very expensive because it takes a long time to make one blade and it requires a lot of attention and care. One way to tell the folded steel ones is the milky white color along the edge of the blade. There are some fake ones where that milky white color is just colored on and isn't natural, but if you've seen a real one before, you should be able to tell the difference.

I'd love to have one myself. I've loved swords from all around the world since I was a kid, but Japanese traditional swords have always been my favorite. I want a regular length standard "katana."


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## Toshiro (Jun 10, 2006)

Naren said:


> Folded steel is very very expensive because it takes a long time to make one blade and it requires a lot of attention and care. One way to tell the folded steel ones is the milky white color along the edge of the blade. There are some fake ones where that milky white color is just colored on and isn't natural, but if you've seen a real one before, you should be able to tell the difference.
> 
> I'd love to have one myself. I've loved swords from all around the world since I was a kid, but Japanese traditional swords have always been my favorite. I want a regular length standard "katana."



You're not talking about the temper line(Hamon), right? Because they try to simulate it with acid etching now-a-days. You can still have a full temper-line on an un-folded steel blade, it just won't have the pattern in the overall steel that folded blade has(visibly at least, there's major other differences of course). Never heard of anyone trying to simulate the grain pattern of a folded steel blade on some wall-hanger, that would be interesting. 

Ugh, must sleep.....


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## Drew (Jun 10, 2006)

Naren said:


> Although that site was pretty funny, not accurate at all. He could apply all the same things being applied to ninjas to pirates.



 No shit, dude, I think his lexicon alone ID's him as someone whom one should not consider a reputable source.


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## Naren (Jun 10, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> You're not talking about the temper line(Hamon), right? Because they try to simulate it with acid etching now-a-days. You can still have a full temper-line on an un-folded steel blade, it just won't have the pattern in the overall steel that folded blade has(visibly at least, there's major other differences of course). Never heard of anyone trying to simulate the grain pattern of a folded steel blade on some wall-hanger, that would be interesting.
> 
> Ugh, must sleep.....



Yeah, some of them have tried to imitate it, but, as you can guess, it isn't very realistic looking.

But, yeah... good stuff.


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## bostjan (Jun 10, 2006)

Well, ninjas may have used swords to kill people, but they were certainly more into using explosives (as ninjas were some of the first people to use them, mainly as a distraction or psychological weapon, though) and improvised weapons with special purposes.

All I said was that ninjas didn't have special ninja swords, as in swords that were only available to ninjas, as many people fantasize about. If you think i'm being obtuse and contrary for stating so, then I say you must either be ignoring everything I've been saying so far or something.

Keep in mind that ninjas were not rich people, they were mercenaries and outlaws. Their purpose was not for fighting, but for assasinations and espionage, as I'm sure you agree.

The sword is a noble weapon, assosiated with battle, not with murder (not saying people don't murder each other with swords). For a murder weapon, a throwing knife, a poison dart, a dagger, or an iron pipe works just as well as a sword.

The two of us could go on splitting hairs for eons, but I stand by my original statement, and I'm not _really_ disagreeing with you, only standing by what I said in the first place.

Anyway, I used to work with a guy who was apparently a ninja. I say that because no one ever saw him, yet he still got a paycheck every two weeks for being there.


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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

bostjan said:


> Well, ninjas may have used swords to kill people, but they were certainly more into using explosives (as ninjas were some of the first people to use them, mainly as a distraction or psychological weapon, though) and improvised weapons with special purposes.
> 
> All I said was that ninjas didn't have special ninja swords, as in swords that were only available to ninjas, as many people fantasize about. If you think i'm being obtuse and contrary for stating so, then I say you must either be ignoring everything I've been saying so far or something.
> 
> ...



Although ninjas did use explosives, I doubt they would use something so loud and attention-grabbing in an assassination. For escaping when they were trapped, definitely.

I disagree that ninjas were mercenaries and outlaws. They were not mercenaries because they were not hired by this clan and then this clan and then this clan. Generally, during the life of one ninja, they would work for one daimyo (I'll grant that through one ninja school's history, they might work for several different daimyo, families, or clans). I would say they weren't outlaws because no one knew who was a ninja and who wasn't. Nobody talked to normal people AS ninjas (wearing ninja clothes or carrying ninja equipment in the open). They would pretend to be a normal person and then talk to someone.

Although samurai and normal Japanese soldiers believed in honor, the sword was not necessarily considered a "noble weapon." After guns were introduced to Japan, however, guns were considered an "unhonorable weapon" because they took no skill to use and could instantly kill someone who had never lost a battle before. What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that ninjas used anything available to kill someone. If you go back to the beginnings of ninjas in the Heian period, they'd use garden tools and small everyday items to kill their opponents. Like spies should be, ninjas were resourceful. But not honorable. If ninja had been an official group of people in the town with a building of their own, they would have been scorned and looked down upon as dishonorable.

I think the misconception of ninja-to/ninja-ken being used ONLY by ninjas is due to the fact that they were the main people to use them. I think that that type of blade was just the preference of most ninjas as a tool used for gaining access into fortresses, etc. As I mentioned, there were various other straight blades in Japan, as well, other than the ninja-to. 

But, yes, I agree with most of what you were saying. While soldiers and samurai were there for fighting, ninja were not. They were there for espionage and assassination.

So, I guess we weren't really arguing over much, anyway.


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## bostjan (Jun 11, 2006)

Exactly


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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

bostjan said:


> Exactly



Indeedy do.


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## Toshiro (Jun 11, 2006)

Is the Koga-Iga thing fiction, or myth, or based loosley on fact? I've always wondered how much of that is folk-tale and how much is anime cliche.


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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Is the Koga-Iga thing fiction, or myth, or based loosley on fact? I've always wondered how much of that is folk-tale and how much is anime cliche.



That's 100% true. Not loosely based on fact at all. I mean, a specific animation itself may be mostly or completely lies, but Koga and Iga are the two most famous ninja schools that fought amongst each other and are oftentimes considered the very first ninjutsu schools (originating around 1000 AD). Obviously they didn't have supernatural powers just like bears and rabbits can't talk like in a Disney movie or how getting hit with a bomb would kill you in real life, but in Ranma they're perfectly fine a few seconds later. 

The most famous ninja in history, Hattori Hanzou, was a member of the Iga school (from Iga prefecture, where modern day Mie prefecture is). Iga prefecture and Koga (Kouga) prefecture are considered the birthplaces of ninjutsu. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iga_Province

There was this one Japanimation I saw 6-7 years ago that was all about Koga and Iga ninja that had a lot of history thrown into it, but the story was really ridiculous, about Tokugawa trying to open some portal and bring demons into our dimension to turn Earth into a living Hell. All the ninjas in that animation had supernatural powers.

We know a lot about the legendary swordsman Minamoto Musashi (because he wrote several books, a journal, etc. and because of what others wrote about him), but there are a lot of Japanese animations and comics about him that are completely ridiculous with him doing unbelievable things. The two most amazing things Minamoto historically did (although people could say these are lies, I guess) were: 1. Killing like 130 soldiers all by himself (as in Samurai I, I believe. It might have been Samurai II) and 2. Beating a swordsmaster with a wooden sword he had made out of a raft. Those might sound kind of unbelievable as well, but he is generally considered the most skilled swordsman in Japan's history.

Just like that, Koga and Iga are 100% real, but depending on the animation, the information about them might be mostly fabricated.

An English site for Mie prefecture, talking about tourism and Iga ninja: http://www.kankomie.or.jp/kanko/discover/iga.html
The Iga-ryu Ninja Museum (on the same page): http://www.kankomie.or.jp/kanko/discover/iga.html (I've heard this place has lots of artifacts and true info on the Iga ninjas, but, as you can see in the pic, the female guide wears kind of silly pink ninja clothes.


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## Toshiro (Jun 11, 2006)

That sounds lik Samurai Deeper Kyo, except it was Oda Nobunaga. Nothing like an Edo-peroid anime that ends with a battle on Tokyo Tower. 

It's like talking to people who think Kenshin's sakaba-to would be a great idea... Why have an edge at all? At that point a well forged Iai-to would be better, realitically. Nevermind that forging a sword with a reverse curve would make most people's head explode from the task.

Man, they've had Musashi fighting Amakusa Shiro in anime and in the Jubei Yagyu movies as well. Damn silly stuff, but fun to watch. Musashi died of old age, IIRC, which was a serious feat in those days with that lifestyle. The Samurai movie 3 had the battle on the island with the carved wooden sword, Mifune putting in a killer performance, IMO.


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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

It wasn't Samurai Deeper Kyo (never heard of that one). I forget what it was called, but there were no samurai in the movie. Yeah, in this one it was Oda Nobunaga as well (I was thinking Tokugawa Ieyasu for some reason). I don't know what animation people have against Nobunaga where they think he was some occultic dude trying to bring demons into the world. How could that movie have been Edo-period and end on Tokyo Tower? Did they get sent into the future for some bizarre reason? The one I'm thinking of was sengoku-jidai (warring states period) and it ended at Nobunaga's secret fortress in a forest somewhere.

Yeah, it would be really idiotic to make a real sakabatou. Even the Wikipedia article on Sakabatou http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/逆刃刀 is completely about Rurouni Kenshin. The reason is that there has never been one in existence before (defeats the entire purpose of the weapon). 

Toshirou Mifune was a pretty cool actor. I particularly liked his roles in Kurosawa films like Seven Samurai (got that one on DVD. Classic) and The Hidden Fortress. But, in animations (and some games), they have him doing some absolutely ridiculous stuff.


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## Toshiro (Jun 11, 2006)

Naren said:


> It wasn't Samurai Deeper Kyo (never heard of that one). I forget what it was called, but there were no samurai in the movie. Yeah, in this one it was Oda Nobunaga as well (I was thinking Tokugawa Ieyasu for some reason). I don't know what animation people have against Nobunaga where they think he was some occultic dude trying to bring demons into the world. How could that movie have been Edo-period and end on Tokyo Tower? Did they get sent into the future for some bizarre reason? The one I'm thinking of was sengoku-jidai (warring states period) and it ended at Nobunaga's secret fortress in a forest somewhere.
> 
> Yeah, it would be really idiotic to make a real sakabatou. Even the Wikipedia article on Sakabatou http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/逆刃刀 is completely about Rurouni Kenshin. The reason is that there has never been one in existence before (defeats the entire purpose of the weapon).
> 
> Toshirou Mifune was a pretty cool actor. I particularly liked his roles in Kurosawa films like Seven Samurai (got that one on DVD. Classic) and The Hidden Fortress. But, in animations (and some games), they have him doing some absolutely ridiculous stuff.



There's all sorts of stupid shit in SDKyo, and very little samurai. Time travel, body-snatching demon/monsters, a guy split into different personaliies, some pessimistic guy from the future, etc.  I keep thinking of that anime Ninja Cadets, damn that was silly, but funny too. Anyway, I don't watch that stuff for it's realism, I want the fantasy aspect. US TV is too focused on reality lately, and I couldn't give a shit.

Only trouble is there are people out there who think this shit is do-able, like they're gonna go to a dojo and learn Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu or some other anime 'style', I bet.


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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> There's all sorts of stupid shit in SDKyo, and very little samurai. Time travel, body-snatching demon/monsters, a guy split into different personaliies, some pessimistic guy from the future, etc.  I keep thinking of that anime Ninja Cadets, damn that was silly, but funny too. Anyway, I don't watch that stuff for it's realism, I want the fantasy aspect. US TV is too focused on reality lately, and I couldn't give a shit.
> 
> Only trouble is there are people out there who think this shit is do-able, like they're gonna go to a dojo and learn Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu or some other anime 'style', I bet.



Yeah, I saw Ninja Cadets too. It was okay.

I watch animation for the same reason I watch normal movies: to be entertained. It could be based on reality or be completely nonsensical and ridiculous and I wouldn't care. Although I do like realistic movies and stuff, I can't stand reality TV. I watch movies to escape from reality. If I wanted to watch something like on the Real World, I'd go to the "ghetto mall" and watch someone duke it out.

Although I tend to have a pretty nerdy job, almost none of the people I work with look like nerds and none of them are the naive 12-year-old uneducated idiots who think that things in animation and games are real. Geez. In fact, the whole historical part of Rurouni Kenshin itself isn't even correct. That was blown waaaay out of proportion, but I don't think it's that the author didn't know. I think he vastly changed history to make the story more interesting (at least from his perspective).

To be honest, I was suprised that you COULD learn Iadou in the US.


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## Toshiro (Jun 11, 2006)

Naren said:


> Yeah, I saw Ninja Cadets too. It was okay.
> 
> I watch animation for the same reason I watch normal movies: to be entertained. It could be based on reality or be completely nonsensical and ridiculous and I wouldn't care. Although I do like realistic movies and stuff, I can't stand reality TV. I watch movies to escape from reality. If I wanted to watch something like on the Real World, I'd go to the "ghetto mall" and watch someone duke it out.
> 
> ...



Eh, I like the silly stuff every so often, since I'm usually pretty damn cynical and pessimisic in real life.  

I found some of the RK storyline interesting, from a purely fictional aspect. It told a story with som basis, without going into some uber-silly setting. The only thing I didn't care for about the whole series was the change in character designs for the OAVs, I much prefer the "early 90's" era artwork in the TV show and movie.

The Iaido we were messing with was the Eishin-Ryu IIRC. It's actually pretty well known over here from what I understand. I found a book done by the grandmaster for it at a Barnes and Noble a few years ago, so that's pretty 'common'. Was funny seeing pics of stuff you used to practice everyday, though.

Of course, he moved away, and I ended up butchering the style with my own silliness as a punk kid(I was like 20 at the time), so much of what I remember might be modified a bit from the true kata. Still, I was always better at swinging the thing the right way than anything else.  Pretty pathetic, and I'm way out of shape now I bet.


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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Eh, I like the silly stuff every so often, since I'm usually pretty damn cynical and pessimisic in real life.
> 
> I found some of the RK storyline interesting, from a purely fictional aspect. It told a story with som basis, without going into some uber-silly setting. The only thing I didn't care for about the whole series was the change in character designs for the OAVs, I much prefer the "early 90's" era artwork in the TV show and movie.
> 
> ...



I liked Rurouni Kenshin when I first read it (and then watched it), but I got bored of it very very soon. There are a few comics and animations that are incredibly popular that I think are just mind-numbingly boring. One of those was Fullmetal Alchemist, which I just randomly picked up in a comic store (before anyone had heard of it in the US). It said "Very popular! Being made into a Fuji TV animation!" (I think it was Fuji) and I was like "Oh, this looks interesting." So I bought it, read through the whole thing that day and thought, "That was boring... That was REALLY boring." And the next day I sold it to a used comic store nearby and bought a different comic series that I found very interesting. That's something I did quite often, buying comics that I had never heard of before just because they looked interesting. More often then not they were interesting, but I ran into a lot of boring ones too.

I generally like Japanimation and comics that make fun of the genre itself. Those amuse my quite a bit. But I also like the really pessimistic (or dark) animations/comics too. One of my favorite genres is the 1980s ultra-violent gore fest comics and animations like Akira and Hokuto no ken. Those are pretty awesome. A good combination of the two are dark humor comics, assuming the storyline is interesting and the humor is actually funny.

It's interesting to note that, although the art of drawing the Japanese longsword is "Iai," if you add "dou," it is "Iadou" and not "Iaidou." Interesting linguistic trivia for ya. Always been interested in kendou, kenjutsu, and iadou, but never had the chance to do it. Too late now, anyway.


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## Toshiro (Jun 11, 2006)

Naren said:


> It's interesting to note that, although the art of drawing the Japanese longsword is "Iai," if you add "dou," it is "Iadou" and not "Iaidou." Interesting linguistic trivia for ya. Always been interested in kendou, kenjutsu, and iadou, but never had the chance to do it. Too late now, anyway.



Strange, I seem to recall the above mentioned book having the extra 'I', but you're the one who speaks the language, so I'll take your word for it. 

We used to have these 'nerf-like' swords we'd use for sparring, because getting out the gear(read: bogu) all the time for 2 people became insane, and as you know a shinai can do damage(bruises) and a bokken can break bones and kill if swung correctly. So we had these things, that were stiff enough to use, but didn't hurt much if you got tagged. 

Which is another thing about anime, bokken are swung around like sticks, but if you use one like a real sword the impact can cause serious damage. Especially targetting the areas of the body these arts do.

And on that note, sleep time.


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## AsIAm666 (Jun 11, 2006)

I've been doing Goshin Budo Jiu-Jutsu for the passed 11 years and now I'm 16. I WOULD be going for my full second degree black this tuesday, but I havnt had much time to train along with a lot of other stuff so I'm pushing it back for now. Not sure if I'll even test again. Working there is great because we're very well payed but my hearts not really in it anymore cuz my school is kinda losing its reputation for being a great school. Its getting diluted, theres 8 year old "junior black belts" who dont even deserve to be orange belts. And its like we're not even teaching anymore, we're babysitting sometimes. Eh, whatever...thats my story, well part of it anyway.


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## forelander (Jun 11, 2006)

challenge said kids, snap their arms and knock down a few pegs (or belts as it may be).


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## bostjan (Jun 11, 2006)




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## Naren (Jun 11, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Strange, I seem to recall the above mentioned book having the extra 'I', but you're the one who speaks the language, so I'll take your word for it.



For reference (from the WWWJDIC http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C):

&#23621;&#21512;&#12356; &#12304;&#12356;&#12354;&#12356;&#12305; (n) iai; art of drawing one's sword, cutting down one's opponent and sheathing the sword afterwards 
&#23621;&#21512;&#12356;&#25244;&#12365; &#12304;&#12356;&#12354;&#12356;&#12396;&#12365;&#12305; (n) while on one knee, drawing a sword and slashing one's opponent 
&#23621;&#21512;&#36947; &#12304;&#12356;&#12354;&#12393;&#12358;&#12305; (n) the art of drawing the Japanese longsword 

If you can't read the hiragana, the pronunciation for those (from top to bottom) is: Iai, Iainuki, and Iadou.



Toshiro said:


> Which is another thing about anime, bokken are swung around like sticks, but if you use one like a real sword the impact can cause serious damage. Especially targetting the areas of the body these arts do.



Yeah, I've seen that in quite a few animations. What a lot of people don't realize is that those things are made of solid wood. While you couldn't slice someone's head off with one, you could crack someone's skull. With the correct technique, it's like carrying a solid metal pipe (pipes aren't solid metal, though). 

I think it's interesting that Japanese synonyms made it into martial arts in English. So, did you guys refer to that as both a bokutou and a bokken (exact same meaning, different kanji)?


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## Toshiro (Jun 12, 2006)

Naren said:


> For reference (from the WWWJDIC http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C):
> 
> &#23621;&#21512;&#12356; &#12304;&#12356;&#12354;&#12356;&#12305; (n) iai; art of drawing one's sword, cutting down one's opponent and sheathing the sword afterwards
> &#23621;&#21512;&#12356;&#25244;&#12365; &#12304;&#12356;&#12354;&#12356;&#12396;&#12365;&#12305; (n) while on one knee, drawing a sword and slashing one's opponent
> ...



I've heard them called both, but due to too many Ranmafics I've gotten used to bokken.  Really I think "wooden sword" brings up the image of a 2x4 with a ">" cut for a tip and a "t" shaped handguard. Like something out of a sunday comic strip. So I've always used bokken, and definitely use the word shinai, because no one seems to know wtf those are unless they see it.


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## Naren (Jun 12, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> I've heard them called both, but due to too many Ranmafics I've gotten used to bokken.  Really I think "wooden sword" brings up the image of a 2x4 with a ">" cut for a tip and a "t" shaped handguard. Like something out of a sunday comic strip. So I've always used bokken, and definitely use the word shinai, because no one seems to know wtf those are unless they see it.



Ooo, Ranma fanfics influencing you explains the problem. A shinai and bokutou/bokken are completely different things. Bokutou/bokken are wooden swords and a shinai is a bamboo sword. A shinai/bamboo sword could never kill you, but a bokutou/bokken/wooden sword could.

Hate to disappoint you... but, actually, "bokutou" is the most common word used in Japanese for a wooden sword (not bokken). I would have thought that you would be used to "bokutou" because of Rurouni Kenshin (I thought you were more into Rurouni Kenshin, which I'm pretty sure never uses the word "bokken" in the entire series). If you type "bokken" into a Japanese (or American) computer, you will not get any kanji, by the way. But, if you type "bokutou" into a Japanese computer, you will immediately get the kanji 'n' stuff. "Bokutou" is the kanji for "wood" and "katana" while "bokken" is the kanji for "wood" and "ken."

shinai = &#31481;&#20992;&#12288;(although the first word you'd get for "shinai" would be &#24066;&#20869
bokutou = &#26408;&#20992;
bokken = &#12412;&#12387;&#12369;&#12435; (although you'd have to type "ki" and "tsurugi" to get &#26408;&#21091;, since "ki" and "ken" would result in &#26408; and&#12288;&#20214; at first result&#65289;

INTERESTING INFORMATION


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## Toshiro (Jun 12, 2006)

Naren said:


> Ooo, Ranma fanfics influencing you explains the problem. A shinai and bokutou/bokken are completely different things. Bokutou/bokken are wooden swords and a shinai is a bamboo sword. A shinai/bamboo sword could never kill you, but a bokutou/bokken/wooden sword could.
> 
> Hate to disappoint you... but, actually, "bokutou" is the most common word used in Japanese for a wooden sword (not bokken). I would have thought that you would be used to "bokutou" because of Rurouni Kenshin (I thought you were more into Rurouni Kenshin, which I'm pretty sure never uses the word "bokken" in the entire series). If you type "bokken" into a Japanese (or American) computer, you will not get any kanji, by the way. But, if you type "bokutou" into a Japanese computer, you will immediately get the kanji 'n' stuff. "Bokutou" is the kanji for "wood" and "katana" while "bokken" is the kanji for "wood" and "ken."
> 
> ...



Oh, I know the difference, I'm just saying that I don't use "bamboo sword" when talking about a shinai, the same way I don't use "wooden sword" when talking about a bokken. And yeah, since I don't live over there, don't have much of a reference point for what's more common.  I'll endeavor to change that, though, starting now.

I still own a shinai, I don't recall ever personally owning a bokuto, though I've used a few. I had lots of stupid friends 10 years ago, and while they understood not to play with the live steel, they thought "That Bamboo Thing" was safe enough, so I didn't think having a bokuto around would be a good idea. They eventually proved me correct, since one of my friend went home with a welt on his temple from someone else wacking him with the shinai. If that had been a bokuto, even untrained, dude probably would've had a concussion.


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## Naren (Jun 12, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> Oh, I know the difference, I'm just saying that I don't use "bamboo sword" when talking about a shinai, the same way I don't use "wooden sword" when talking about a bokken. And yeah, since I don't live over there, don't have much of a reference point for what's more common.  I'll endeavor to change that, though, starting now.
> 
> I still own a shinai, I don't recall ever personally owning a bokuto, though I've used a few. I had lots of stupid friends 10 years ago, and while they understood not to play with the live steel, they thought "That Bamboo Thing" was safe enough, so I didn't think having a bokuto around would be a good idea. They eventually proved me correct, since one of my friend went home with a welt on his temple from someone else wacking him with the shinai. If that had been a bokuto, even untrained, dude probably would've had a concussion.



I do use "bamboo sword" and "wooden sword" or "bamboo practice sword" or "wooden sword" instead of the Japanese words (mainly because all Japanese understand "shinai", "bokutou", and "bokken" because they are not jargon in Japanese. They are words generally understood by everyone. However very few Americans would understand those words). I avoid using Japanese words in English as much as possible and I avoid using English words in Japanese as much as possible. My particular thing, perhaps.

Those kids got what they deserved, thinking that a sword wouldn't hurt you because it's made out of wood/bamboo. The reason why most formal matches in kendo nowadays are done with bamboo swords is because they're safer and you can go all out, hitting as hard as you can, without worrying about killing or seriously injuring your opponent. Most kendo/kenjutsu matches over 70 years ago were done with wooden swords, because they were closer to the real thing.

Have you ever seen Seven Samurai? I love the scene where the master swordsman is like "I win." and the other guy is like "I beat you" and he says "If they had been real swords, you would have lost" and the other guy says "Oh yeah? Then let's fight with real swords" so confident in his skills. They fight with real swords and the master swordsman ends up killing the other guy. Wooden swords and bamboo swords are great for practicing, but the only thing like the real thing is actually the real sword itself. Bamboo swords are straight, while wooden swords are curved like real swords, but even then they still don't have the weight, balance, and feel of real swords. Etc.

Swords = cool.  At least, I think so.

Glad to hear you care about the terminology. I've met a lot of "anime/manga" fans (this isn't an animation thing, but just as a comparison) who don't care that their terminology is wrong and just try to use the same words all the other fans use. I'm glad to see someone who cares about terminology and usage.


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## Toshiro (Jun 12, 2006)

I have the hi-fi mono subtitled 2 VHS set of The Seven Samurai, the tapes look like they were made at the dawn of VHS. Heh, I need to pick-up a DVD of it. I don't think there's a single Mifune film I haven't seen, at least of the ones available on these shores. From Yojimbo, to 1941, to that 80's movie "The Sword Of The Ninja". 

70 years ago the forms were probably a whole lot more pure, and people had more time to train I bet. Still, there's gonna be a huge difference between training under a master there, especially if it's in the main dojo of the style, compared to even your run of the mill dojo here in the US.

People on a whole are stupid about things like that. They think the overgrown steak knife they bought at the fea market for $50 is a real version of a Japanese sword, nevermind the morons on home-shopping-networks selling this stuff. There's a vid on ebaum's world or something of one of those morons wacking a cheap-ass katana against a counter top to "show how durable it is, and that it's a REAL sword" and the thing snaps and the tip flies at the guy injuring him. That one video sums it up quite well.

As for the wording, well I have to keep up on something, my fat ass is not going to be winning any matches, or fighting any duels anytime soon... The most live steel can look forward to here is some burglar dumb enough to try to rob me when I'm home.


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## Naren (Jun 12, 2006)

Toshiro said:


> I have the hi-fi mono subtitled 2 VHS set of The Seven Samurai, the tapes look like they were made at the dawn of VHS. Heh, I need to pick-up a DVD of it. I don't think there's a single Mifune film I haven't seen, at least of the ones available on these shores. From Yojimbo, to 1941, to that 80's movie "The Sword Of The Ninja".
> 
> 70 years ago the forms were probably a whole lot more pure, and people had more time to train I bet. Still, there's gonna be a huge difference between training under a master there, especially if it's in the main dojo of the style, compared to even your run of the mill dojo here in the US.
> 
> ...



Yojimbo was cool. I've seen about 15-20 Kurosawa films, with Mifune in at least 1/3 of those. I have Seven Samurai on the very rare region-free Criteria Classics DVD. They only made it for a few months when it first came out before they were told to cut it out and make it region 1. I could probably sell it for some money.

Well, most of the martial arts in the US are watered down. They can't take the extremely strict discipline or the dedicated study. Regular Kendo in high schools here in Japan isn't so effective for real fighting, but is more as a sport. Still, it's more authentic then most kendo in the US.

I'll agree that people are pretty stupid and gullible, in general.


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## evil (Jun 12, 2006)

I play Judo after I practice guitar at the dojo.


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## Metal Ken (Jun 13, 2006)

Naren said:


> Yojimbo was cool. I've seen about 15-20 Kurosawa films, with Mifune in at least 1/3 of those. I have Seven Samurai on the very rare region-free Criteria Classics DVD. They only made it for a few months when it first came out before they were told to cut it out and make it region 1. I could probably sell it for some money.



You know, they actually had that at a local movie rental place a few years ago? 
I remember it because i had read about the Criterion classics edition of the Killer going for like 400$ on ebay around the same time.. then i was at the store and saw the Criterion classic of Seven Samurai... I had to check it out. Good flick.


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## Naren (Jun 14, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> You know, they actually had that at a local movie rental place a few years ago?
> I remember it because i had read about the Criterion classics edition of the Killer going for like 400$ on ebay around the same time.. then i was at the store and saw the Criterion classic of Seven Samurai... I had to check it out. Good flick.



They still make the Criterion classic edition of Seven Samurai. It's just not non-region anymore. They only made the non-region version for a few months, which is why it's so rare. I remember about 5 years ago, I was taking care of some Japanese students (as a job) and one of the students said "HEY! You have Shichinin no samurai! Let me see it!" and I said "I don't think you can watch it on your computer, but you can try." and he did and it worked (even though he had a Region 2 DVD-ROM). We were both surprised. So I looked into it and found out about the rare non-region free version that was made just around the time I had bought the DVD. It wasn't until several years after that that it became a really valuable collector's item.


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## forelander (Jun 14, 2006)

On a more related note I had training today (muay thai) which ended in a good spar. Problem is my friend is very switched on when it comes to checking and I always end up kicking his shin with mine and it sucks. Though on the up side my right shin doesn't seem to hurt at all so maybe i'm semi conditioned. Left one is screwed, though not as bad as I expected. And I still got him some good hits/kicks so it's all good.


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