# Bass watts vs guitar watts (volume question)



## Hybrid138 (Apr 16, 2011)

Our bass player currently has a 100watt ampeg combo amp and may want to upgrade soon. I use a Mesa Roadster and an Orange 4x12. I use distortion at 50 watts and cleans on 100 watts. Sometimes he really gets drowned out live (if he isn't miked) and at practice he isn't as present as I think he could be. My amp faces away from me (90 degree angle?) and his amp faces me directly. My concern is more for live un-miked gigs. About how many watts should he be shooting for?


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## Pedrojoca (Apr 16, 2011)

that's kind of subjective, sometimes the wattage doesn't directly correspond to the loudness. Our bassist has a 300w Solid State Ashdown and me and the other guitarrist have 100w tubes, he can be heard, but we have to push the amp a bit.
I guess that 150w would have to be pushed hard, so i'm guessing 250w-300w, if you want to take it easy on the amp


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 16, 2011)

Depends on EQ, your drummer, your stage volume, and how good the PA is where you play.

I prefer either 200W tube or 300-500W SS, and at least as many speakers as the guitarist is running (preferably more.) Also, if he's volume starved, you guys need to watch the low end in the guitars, and he needs to dial in a more midrangey and less sub-bassy tone.


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## Hybrid138 (Apr 16, 2011)

oh yeah he would probably want a solid state. He isn't looking to spend a lot of money.


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## Andromalia (Apr 16, 2011)

As a rule a bass player will need more watts than a guitar player, it's a matter of perceived dynamics. Just how much more depends on style, way of playing etc, but if the guy is competing against a roadster I'd say a 300-400 watts head (solid state) would do the trick, his 100w is indeed in this case not really enough, but it's not a matter of pure volume.


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## BabUShka (Apr 16, 2011)

100w bassmp is as powerful as 100w guitar amp..
But logic says that you need a more powerful amplifier to amplify lower frequences.. That actually counts for guitars too.. 
8string guitar ie.. They need a heavier output power to get heard and to get clearer tones.

Thats why 300w ++ is required for bass amps in band situations.


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## SirMyghin (Apr 16, 2011)

BabUShka said:


> 100w bassmp is as powerful as 100w guitar amp..
> But logic says that you need a more powerful amplifier to amplify lower frequences.. That actually counts for guitars too..
> 8string guitar ie.. They need a heavier output power to get heard and to get clearer tones.
> 
> Thats why 300w ++ is required for bass amps in band situations.




this is how it works. 100W tube amp is the same output as 100W solid state amp, they just distort differently which causes percieved volume differences, they have the same SPL (Sound Pressure Level, loudness). Think of what happens if you crank the bass on your amp, you lose a lot of headroom right? (permitting it doesn't mud out). The is why bass amps are more powerful.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 16, 2011)

What's his budget? I can toss out some quick-and-dirty recommendations of gear to look for if he's curious.


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## Rook (Apr 16, 2011)

You have a tube amp. Solid state watts (if you'll excuse the crude term) are about a third as loud as tube watts. Low end requires exponentially more power than top end to amplify cleanly (if it's clipping it isn't amplifying).

Even at 50W unless you're diming your Roadie you're probably using between 30 and 40W. You're also using 4 12 inch speakers. So powerwise, your bass player needs say 120W to amplify the same frequencies as you through the same cab. He's using fewer 'inches of speaker', and he's amplifying low frequencies, so into a single 15 he's gunna be looking at about 4-500W solid state to get the SAME volume as you. As he needs to be a little quieter than you, 3-400W should be cool. You could also try adding speakerage. Big speaker cabs generally promote lower frequencies and feel spongier, adding them makes it feel subbier and more elastic. Smaller speakers are snappier and promote high frequencies (generally) and having more speakers IN THE SAME CAB will add crucial low end.


Mixing speakers is difficult to do well, so I recommend keeping them all the same size.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 16, 2011)

Going against a loud Recto halfstack, I'd say at the very LEAST a 4x10 or 2x15 + 200W tube or 400W solid state, if you want to even have a hope of competing.


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## JPhoenix19 (Apr 17, 2011)

Back when I was in a band, the bassist we had at the time ran through a Peavey Tour 4x10 with a Tour 450 on top. He later upgraded to a Tour 700, but the 450 was just loud enough to compete with two tube amps- a Mesa F-50 on top a Recto cab, and my GT-6/Carvin T100 on top my 4x12. It's also worth mentioning that we tuned to A standard, and it held the low end very well.


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## Ckackley (Apr 17, 2011)

Our bassist used to use a 100 watt amp and was always buried in the mix. Not because of volume but more because of the amp mudding out when really pushed. He uses a 5 string and for the most part it sounded OK until he hit anything on the low string. He upgraded to a 300 watt and it's like night and day. He's got plenty of headroom to get a good tone without overdriving or mudding out the speaker. So my theory is you need a higher watt bass amp only so you don't have to push the shit out of it and starve yourself for headroom.


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## JSX212 (Apr 17, 2011)

The reason why your bassist needs to have more watts than your guitarist can be traced and subsequently blamed on physics and the relationship between frequencies. The Fletcher-Munson Curve and Equal Loudness Contour curve are great examples. The Fletcher-Munson Curve and Equal Loudness Contour curves basically show that to perceive to hear low frequencies as well as you do mid-high frequencies, you must use a higher wattage. Hope that helped!


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## groph (Apr 17, 2011)

Fun111 said:


> You have a tube amp. Solid state watts (if you'll excuse the crude term) are about a third as loud as tube watts. Low end requires exponentially more power than top end to amplify cleanly (if it's clipping it isn't amplifying).
> 
> Even at 50W unless you're diming your Roadie you're probably using between 30 and 40W. You're also using 4 12 inch speakers. So powerwise, your bass player needs say 120W to amplify the same frequencies as you through the same cab. He's using fewer 'inches of speaker', and he's amplifying low frequencies, so into a single 15 he's gunna be looking at about 4-500W solid state to get the SAME volume as you. As he needs to be a little quieter than you, 3-400W should be cool. You could also try adding speakerage. Big speaker cabs generally promote lower frequencies and feel spongier, adding them makes it feel subbier and more elastic. Smaller speakers are snappier and promote high frequencies (generally) and having more speakers IN THE SAME CAB will add crucial low end.
> 
> ...



Watts are watts, it's just a measure of output but generally yeah a 100W tube amp will seem louder and a clipping solid state seems to lose volume. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, a 100W tube amp is just as loud as a 100W solid state amp in terms of SPL but apparently tubes amplify a wider range of harmonics so you just hear more sound and it cuts better.

I don't know a damn thing about bass cabs and how volume/watts interacts with different speaker setups but wattage wise he'll probably want to be shooting for the 400-500 range, the headroom is always nice to have. As it's been said, it takes a more powerful amp to effectively reproduce low frequencies. Solid state is pretty much the standard when it comes to bass amps anyway, tubes will break up and generally you want a super clean tone which solid state tends to do better.


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## Rook (Apr 18, 2011)

groph said:


> Watts are watts, it's just a measure of output but generally yeah a 100W tube amp will seem louder and a clipping solid state seems to lose volume. I'm pretty sure, all other things being equal, a 100W tube amp is just as loud as a 100W solid state amp in terms of SPL but apparently tubes amplify a wider range of harmonics so you just hear more sound and it cuts better.



Yes Watts are Watts but they are a measure of *power*, as in how much energy is used per second, and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with volume. 

I appreciate my phrase was crude (which I think I said) but Watts doesn't equal volume, it's totally frequency dependant in many ways, and which frequencies depends on the amplification.

You get what I mean anyway, the details don't matter. And what I say is entirely true. Your standard push/pull tube amp is approximately 3 times louder through the same speaker and at the same power as a solid state. Single ended tube amps are louder still.


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## Hybrid138 (Apr 18, 2011)

Then how can you measure volume if you can't use watts?


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 18, 2011)

Hybrid138 said:


> Then how can you measure volume if you can't use watts?



In decibels.

Honestly, for volume speaker area >>>>>> watts.

Doubling your speaker area will come very close to doubling your overall volume, while doubling your wattage will not.


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## Hybrid138 (Apr 18, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> In decibels.
> 
> Honestly, for volume speaker area >>>>>> watts.
> 
> Doubling your speaker area will come very close to doubling your overall volume, while doubling your wattage will not.



So the size of the cab and not the number of speakers?


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 18, 2011)

Hybrid138 said:


> So the size of the cab and not the number of speakers?



Technically, it's the total displacement; which is the amount of speaker area ((1/2 of the speaker's diameter)^2 * pi) * the speaker's Xmax (the amount of distance the speaker can travel before hitting its mechanical limits) that determines how much air a speaker cabinet can move.

The size of the cab determines its tuning relative to the speakers used, and can result in a less-than-efficient use of power and speaker capability, but it is the number, size, sensitivity, and mechanical limits of the speaker systems involved that determine volume.

For your purposes, this means more speakers = more speaker area = more volume.


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## BabUShka (Apr 18, 2011)

Hybrid138 said:


> Then how can you measure volume if you can't use watts?



We do that at school every day.. Using the resistans, inductans and capasitans to find the effect, gain, break frequency and desibels. 
So no.. Watts alone wont tell you how loud an amplifier can get. But still, it's an ok way so assume how powerful it is. 
A 2000w PA wont always get louder than a 50w guitar amp.


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## Powermetalbass (Jul 13, 2011)

Our drummer has a loud kit (very nice too). We do metal and the guitarists each (there are 2) use 60 watt combos. Without the drummer I was good using a 200 Watt SS combo. When we got the drummer I had to upgrade as I was cranked to 8-9ish to even barely compete. Now I've heard the bass wattage from guitar to bass is about 3 or 4 -1. So a 60 watt guitar head means I need 240 to compete at a similar volume. 

With the drummer I decided to go balls out with 700 watts to make sure I don't short change myself in the future and don't neccesarily have to push the amp. But it isn't always the watts. It also depends on your cabs (Cone size, air movement, Ohms, etc.).


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## TemjinStrife (Jul 13, 2011)

I get by pumping 500W into a 1x12... but it's not an ordinary 1x12, as it'll move about as much air at max volume as an average 3x10, with better dispersion. 












However, it's not the easiest way to go about things, nor the cheapest; if you want volume, buy a used Eden D410XLT (they're all over the place for $300-500 and are shockingly loud and cut very well) and a solid Peavey, Ampeg, Eden, Markbass, or other reasonable unit with 400-500w+ and you should do alright. You will still get buried if your guitarists are idiots about volume, but with judicial use of the volume knob and the proper EQing on your amp and your guitarists', you should be fine, and for under a grand.


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## johnythehero (Jul 13, 2011)

I remember seeing a bugera bass head for like 4 or 500 and it was like 1200 watts or something ridiculus though I heard it wasn't actually that incredibly loud just had a lot of headroom. I have actually seen a 150 watt 1x15 bass combo keep up with a two guitarist metal band though I am not really sure how well it cut through but it was noticible when he stopped playing or whatever.


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## budda (Jul 14, 2011)

Watts are watts.


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## xiphiod (Jul 14, 2011)

maybe it's because i'm an audio guy, so I look at things differently, but what if instead of spending a bunch of money buying a new bass rig, you just turn the fucking guitars down  

I played in a hair metal band with 3 guitars: 2 JCM 100 watt half stacks, and a Bogner something-or-other 100 watt. I used a hundred watt 1x15 bass combo. between eq and keeping the stage volume low, we could all actually hear each other


rant over


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## TemjinStrife (Jul 14, 2011)

budda said:


> Watts are watts.



Yes, but frequency response, sensitivity, and the frequencies you are attempting to reproduce are very different from SS to tube and from bass to guitar.


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## BabUShka (Jul 14, 2011)

True that. It even depends from guitar amp to guitar amp. 
I've experienced 50w Marshalls play a lot, a whole lot louder and with more dynamics than other 50w amps.. 
Ie: Jcm800 vs Marshall Vintage Modern: HUGE differens in volume.


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## budda (Jul 14, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> Yes, but frequency response, sensitivity, and the frequencies you are attempting to reproduce are very different from SS to tube and from bass to guitar.



 Completely!

I just like doing the "watts are watts" thing


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## TemjinStrife (Jul 14, 2011)

BabUShka said:


> True that. It even depends from guitar amp to guitar amp.
> I've experienced 50w Marshalls play a lot, a whole lot louder and with more dynamics than other 50w amps..
> Ie: Jcm800 vs Marshall Vintage Modern: HUGE differens in volume.



That's probably due to the compression (or lack thereof) from gain.


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## Hybrid138 (Jul 14, 2011)

So in general, there is no rule of thumb when it comes to measuring volume using only the specs of the amp? Unless the provide dbs...


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## Floppystrings (Jul 14, 2011)

xiphiod said:


> maybe it's because i'm an audio guy, so I look at things differently, but what if instead of spending a bunch of money buying a new bass rig, you just turn the fucking guitars down
> 
> I played in a hair metal band with 3 guitars: 2 JCM 100 watt half stacks, and a Bogner something-or-other 100 watt. I used a hundred watt 1x15 bass combo. between eq and keeping the stage volume low, we could all actually hear each other
> 
> ...



As a drummer, I can tell you that if it can't be heard over as 18" Zildjian A Custom crash being hit hard, the drummer won't even hear you. I had a cranked line 6 2x12 combo a foot away from my hi-hat facing my head and it disappeared with every cymbal hit.

Amps need to be loud because crash cymbals, and nice snares are very loud.

Things are different with a monitor live, but for a typical practice, things really do need to be almost ridiculously loud. WITH mids, and cranked.


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## fretninjadave (Jul 14, 2011)




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## BabUShka (Jul 15, 2011)

TemjinStrife said:


> That's probably due to the compression (or lack thereof) from gain.



Compression is a part of how the frequency respons.. And still indicates that you cant measure volume from watts.



Hybrid138 said:


> So in general, there is no rule of thumb when it comes to measuring volume using only the specs of the amp? Unless the provide dbs...



Nope! But you can still assume.. Almost every tube amp from 15 to 200w would play loud enough for you not to hear the difference in volum, cause your ears would probably give up on you.. Watts really more about the headroom, how early the amp breaks and dynamics.


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## Rook (Jul 15, 2011)




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