# Delay on Rhythm Guitars?



## Drew (Nov 23, 2005)

*dry clip 
delayed clip*​
Ok, as this came up in the "included FX on amps" thread...

I'm a BIG fan of delay on rhythm guitars. It's something I picked up from Devin Townsend that I just love the sound of - it seems to add a bit of extra depth and gives you the sense that these huge walls of guitars are just crashing down around you. However, it seems like I'm pretty much the only one here who feels this way.

So, I did a couple quick sound clips last night. Nothing amazing, a 30-seconds-to-prepare Fruity Loops drum loop, about the same amount of time aligning an AKG C1000S in front of my amp, two tracks of guitar panned about 50% left and right, and a direct-in bass with some of the treble rolled off an a little bit of compression (I was in a hurry and didn't grab my J-Station). 

The first clip is a riff recorded dry. I'll also point out I'm a horrible rhythm player, lol. 

The second is the same riff with a little bit of ping-pong delay with about 40% feedback panned our 100% to each side. I mixed this quickly last night, and in retrospect the delay needs to come down another decibel or so, and I need to tempo-synch it too. But it serves as a demonstration. 

So, thoughts? Not the greatest recording/mix you'll ever here, but do you prefer it dry? wet? No opinion? Does the delay bother you? Does the dry mix bother you? Does my sloppy riffing bother you? 

Let me know.


----------



## Chris (Nov 23, 2005)

While the FX'd clip sounds a little bigger by itself, as soon as you add any kind of solo/lyrics/etc over it, it's going to get muddy real fast.

Dry all the way.


----------



## Scott (Nov 23, 2005)

I prefer it wet and dirty myself...



...Oh and i'm gonna have to go with the delayed clip, but there is a slight too much of it.


----------



## Drew (Nov 23, 2005)

Bah. I'm going to have to add a solo and three part vocal harmonies before you guys will give me a straight answer, won't I?  

Chris, in theory you're right. However, if you route the delays for your lead and rhythm tracks through seperate FX busses and EQ them to hit different spectrums, theoretically I think it's possible to get away with a delayed rhythm tone without having sheer sonic chaos on your hands. I'll have to do a proper full mix like this to see if I can pull it off, and that I'm NOT crazy, lol.


----------



## Scott (Nov 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> Bah. I'm going to have to add a solo and three part vocal harmonies before you guys will give me a straight answer, won't I?



Theoretically, yes.


----------



## eaeolian (Nov 23, 2005)

I prefer dry - or, really, slightly 'verbed. As fast as we usually play, delay would make it mush, especially with the other instruments. I could possibly see delaying the rhythms of slower-paced music, but why not just double the track and 'verb 'em? Thick and crushing, but not washed-out...


----------



## Chris (Nov 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> Chris, in theory you're right. However, if you route the delays for your lead and rhythm tracks through seperate FX busses and EQ them to hit different spectrums, theoretically I think it's possible to get away with a delayed rhythm tone without having sheer sonic chaos on your hands. I'll have to do a proper full mix like this to see if I can pull it off, and that I'm NOT crazy, lol.



I'm not right in theory bitch, I'm mothafuckin' right.  Unless you absolutely kick ass at mixing, stereo rhythm tracks with effects + effect-laden lead = mush! Mush I tell you!


----------



## Drew (Nov 23, 2005)

Chris said:


> I'm not right in theory bitch, I'm mothafuckin' right.  Unless you absolutely kick ass at mixing, stereo rhythm tracks with effects + effect-laden lead = mush! Mush I tell you!



WWDTD, muthafucka', WWDTD!  

Ok, ok, you're right, Devin Townsend does in fact kick ass at mixing and thus we're still in agreement...  

I guess I'm just going to have to become a fuckin' mixing GOD if I wanna get that kind of a sound on a CD...  

I also gotta kick this smiley habit. Lately it seems I'm completely incapable of finishing a sentence without one. Smileys - the new punctuation. Yikes.

SCOTT - don't hold your breath bro, I sound like a cross between a drunken Kurt Cobain and Bob Dylan with a head cold. It ain't pretty bro, lol.


----------



## Drew (Nov 23, 2005)

eaeolian said:


> II could possibly see delaying the rhythms of slower-paced music...



What, you mean like in the, oh, clip I included above?  

Sorry, couldn't resist the cheap shot.


----------



## eaeolian (Nov 23, 2005)

Drew said:


> What, you mean like in the, oh, clip I included above?
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist the cheap shot.



Note my alternative - and superior - suggestion AFTER that comment.


----------



## smueske (Nov 23, 2005)

I definitely prefer the delayed version. For me, I think the key is to record the guitar dry and do any effects in the mix, which, if I'm not mistaken, you are doing. You have so much more control that way. And yes, the tap delays are cool because you can really fill out the spectrum that way. 

It really depends on what else is going to be in the mix. The more I've been recording the more I see that it's not so much what a few tracks are doing but where everything is in spatial relationship to each other. Some tracks should be dry so that they appear in the near field. The furthest back will be the sounds with reverb and the ones in between will be the tracks with delay and other effects (okay, it's more complicated than that once you start looking at the waveforms and such, but that's true in a general sense). As long as your other sounds don't compete distance-wise, you should be all right. What this means, though, is that once you add vocals, they'll probably need to be the sounds that are in the near-field mix. The bass, too, should be dry then, or a very light chorus.


----------



## Hawksmoor (Nov 23, 2005)

Chris said:


> While the FX'd clip sounds a little bigger by itself, as soon as you add any kind of solo/lyrics/etc over it, it's going to get muddy real fast.
> 
> Dry all the way.



+1


----------



## Drew (Nov 23, 2005)

smueske said:


> I definitely prefer the delayed version. For me, I think the key is to record the guitar dry and do any effects in the mix, which, if I'm not mistaken, you are doing. You have so much more control that way. And yes, the tap delays are cool because you can really fill out the spectrum that way.
> 
> It really depends on what else is going to be in the mix. The more I've been recording the more I see that it's not so much what a few tracks are doing but where everything is in spatial relationship to each other. Some tracks should be dry so that they appear in the near field. The furthest back will be the sounds with reverb and the ones in between will be the tracks with delay and other effects (okay, it's more complicated than that once you start looking at the waveforms and such, but that's true in a general sense). As long as your other sounds don't compete distance-wise, you should be all right. What this means, though, is that once you add vocals, they'll probably need to be the sounds that are in the near-field mix. The bass, too, should be dry then, or a very light chorus.



Interesting perspective, and one that makes sense to me on an intuitive level. In fact, if I picture a lead guitar over this I'm hearing something fairly dry and middy - a touch of delay, but mixed back so as to not really call attention to itself, and with either little reverb or a fast decay. 

I like that way of looking at a mix.


----------



## Vince (Nov 23, 2005)

I use a light 80-90 ms stereo delay on my live sound. It's back in the mix and it just adds some depth to my live guitar sound.

Whenever I've recorded rhythm guitar sounds, a delay sound from the rig always gets in the way. It takes away tight percussive parts and can make them mushy. I've got some recent clips I could share to demonstrate. I'll post them the next time I'm at my home computer.


----------



## The Dark Wolf (Nov 23, 2005)

There's NO WAY delay would work with most of the rhythmic stuff I play. A lot more going on than a simplistic riff like this example, Drew. If it's just slow, heavy nu-metal-ish dirge, then by all means, you can get away with a little. But if it's something tight, precise, and intricate? No fuckin' way.

The delayed track sounds good.

The dry track sounds better.

My opinion.

(Your tone sounds pretty good, D. SCREAMS Mesa Mark/Nomad series, son!  )


----------



## VII (Nov 24, 2005)

i hear that when Messuggah play live the r guitar has delay added to it to take up for one guitar missing while it solos. how practicle is that.


----------



## Hawksmoor (Nov 25, 2005)

VII said:


> i hear that when Messuggah play live the r guitar has delay added to it to take up for one guitar missing while it solos. how practicle is that.



A technique known as artificial doubling. One single repeat is added 20-30ms after it is played.


----------



## Naren (Nov 25, 2005)

I think the delayed track sounds good, but not as good as the dry track. I generally think that delay doesn't sound very good on rhythm guitar. It sounds pretty slick on delayed guitar, but not rhythm. You pulled it off, so that it sounds good, but not as good as the dry track. Personally, most of my distorted rhythm guitar wouldn't sound good with delay. A lot of my clean rhythm guitar sounds good with delay; and all my clean and distorted lead sounds good with delay.

I gotta agree with Chris, Vince, and Bob on this one.


----------



## Chris (Nov 25, 2005)

smueske said:


> I definitely prefer the delayed version. For me, I think the key is to record the guitar dry and do any effects in the mix



Very much so.


----------



## Chris (Nov 25, 2005)

The Dark Wolf said:


> There's NO WAY delay would work with most of the rhythmic stuff I play. A lot more going on than a simplistic riff like this example, Drew. If it's just slow, heavy nu-metal-ish dirge, then by all means, you can get away with a little. But if it's something tight, precise, and intricate? No fuckin' way.



 Also very much so.


----------



## Drew (Nov 25, 2005)

Hey, are you guys calling me a sloppy, non-intricate, nu-metal guitarist?  

Actually, don't answer that...  

Eh, that's just the sort of stuff I like to write - mid tempo at fastest, and while it's not QUITE as simple as it sounds (I like to do a lot with diad 3rds and 4ths in conjunction with 5ths), if what I write is essentially slow, dirge-like nu-metalish riffing, then I suppose the sooner I come to terms with that the better, lol. 

I guess I should re=post this poll with clips from a full mix, so it's a slightly more valuable comparison. Give me a few months.


----------



## Chris (Nov 25, 2005)

Drew said:


> Hey, are you guys calling me a sloppy, non-intricate, nu-metal guitarist?



Not at all. That particular riff was non-intricate, that's all.


----------



## The Dark Wolf (Nov 25, 2005)

Chris said:


> Not at all. That particular riff was non-intricate, that's all.


Yeah, no shit. You're the mac daddy, D, and I fuckin' _love _your playing. Bluesy, soulful, and melodic as hell.

But if you thought that riff of your'ns was _technical_... well shit. You need to come to T-Town and woodshed with me a bit, dood


----------



## 7 Dying Trees (Nov 25, 2005)

The first one is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better (ie DRY)

The Wet one just sounds undefined, verging on mushy and nowhere near tight, really not good at all. In fact the DRY one just sounds way maore powerfull. 

Sorry, but Rythm guitar+overdrive HAS to be dry, otherwise you lose definition, punch and a whole load of other things. If you want a thicker sound, multitrack.


----------



## Vince (Nov 25, 2005)

I've got the file for you, Drew.

http://www.vincelupone.com/mp3/VLUPONEguitardelay1.mp3 (4.14 mb)

I'm running a stereo delay, left delay at 320 ms, right delay at 340 ms, at a mix level of about 10%. I like how it thickens up the sound in parts, but when it hits the syncopated part of the piece, it's not as tight if I recorded without the delay.

Here's what's happening in this MP3:

(0:20) - delay around sound is "roomy"

(1:06) - delay makes the syncopated part sound less tight. This might sound great when coupled with a full band, but on it's own it's not as good as if I recorded it dry.

(1:51) tight rhythm line. This recording here disproves the idea that adding a delay to your sound makes it "impossible" to have a tight sound.



All in all, I'm probably going to record the guitars dry on the album (this is an isolated part from a songwriting demo), but this is a good example of a decent delay added to a rhythm sound that makes it a little more full sounding, without mushing it up too much. Use effects sparingly and for "effect" (as opposed to making them a main part of the sound), and you can do a lot with them.

Oh, and Drew, this recording was all done with the AKG C1000S mic. 4 tracks.


----------



## Naren (Nov 25, 2005)

desertdweller said:


> I've got the file for you, Drew.
> 
> http://www.vincelupone.com/mp3/VLUPONEguitardelay1.mp3 (4.14 mb)



  It rocks. Just plain rocks. I'd love to hear it with the whole band.


----------



## DSS3 (Nov 26, 2005)

Hmm... I'd like to know where you heard that Devon uses delay on his rhythm guitars. I don't hear it that much on Alien; but I hear a nice quadtracking mix of Mesa and 5150.


Honestly, for most all heavy stuff, quadtracking with an SM57 sounds the best. One track on each side panned 100%, and one track on each side panned 80%. I usually like to change the amp or guitar on the 80% panning, but sometimes I'll just use the same tone.

There is some stuff that just sounds alot tighter and better with two tracks. Thrash type stuff; Kreator, Slayer, Testament... and technical deathmetal; Necrophagist... tend to sound best with just two tracks. While I quadtrack the majority of my material, I'm working on a song right now written in a similar vein to Necrophagist, and it just doesn't sound that great when quadtracked. 


I'd like to hear another clip of Drew's riff, but quadtracked dry.




Vince, no offense at all, but I personally think it sounds a bit artificially beefed up. Also, and this could be do to the bitrate, it sounds kind of dull and compressed. If you quadtracked that, I think it would come out insanely tight and crushing.



All that said, quadtracking requires a very very tight player.


----------



## Vince (Nov 26, 2005)

DSS3 said:


> Vince, no offense at all, but I personally think it sounds a bit artificially beefed up. Also, and this could be do to the bitrate, it sounds kind of dull and compressed. If you quadtracked that, I think it would come out insanely tight and crushing.
> 
> 
> 
> All that said, quadtracking requires a very very tight player.



There's 4 tracks of rhythm guitar on there.


----------



## DSS3 (Nov 26, 2005)

desertdweller said:


> There's 4 tracks of rhythm guitar on there.



Really? Mind posting up a dry version of it?


----------



## Drew (Nov 26, 2005)

DSS3 said:


> Hmm... I'd like to know where you heard that Devon uses delay on his rhythm guitars. I don't hear it that much on Alien; but I hear a nice quadtracking mix of Mesa and 5150.



Someone needs to buy "Terria."  

At the VERY least, download the sample track on www.hevydevy.com, "Canada." Strapping Young Lad is great, but I _vastly_ prefer Devin's solo material. Delayed rhythm guitars (as well as, well, everything else save bass and drums it seems, lol) are sorta a hallmark of Terria and Ocean Machine.

As far as Vince's clip, I'll listen when I'm not at my parents' place, bro, and am on a much faster connection, but I have a feeling that if the track ISN'T skull-crushingly heavy, it's nothing some bass and drums wouldn't fix - Vince's paid his dues getting consistantly great rhythm tones on tape, and I have yet to hear an actual bad tone from him.


----------



## DSS3 (Nov 26, 2005)

Drew said:


> Someone needs to buy "Terria."
> 
> At the VERY least, download the sample track on www.hevydevy.com, "Canada." Strapping Young Lad is great, but I _vastly_ prefer Devin's solo material. Delayed rhythm guitars (as well as, well, everything else save bass and drums it seems, lol) are sorta a hallmark of Terria and Ocean Machine.




This is true; none of the stores around here stock it, and nobody has it on a torrent... rah. Listening to Canada as we speak...

I really dig it, but I'm not sure if I dig the production. It sounds very... cluttered, for lack of a better word. I'm not sure how that guitar tone would work under fast material.


----------



## Drew (Nov 26, 2005)

You can buy it off his site - that's where I got my copy. I forgot how much it was, shipped from canada, but less than $20, and no worse than buying a similar CD at a local mall... 

Most of the disc is mid-tempo, but "Earth Day" gets up to near-SYL speeds, and the delays are timed up well enough so it still works. 

Anyway, one man's "lush" is another's "cluttered" so it really comes down to personal taste, but for myself I consider this one of my favorite mixes I've run across. It's just huge sounding.


----------



## Vince (Nov 26, 2005)

DSS3 said:


> Really? Mind posting up a dry version of it?



Can't. The delay effect was on the rig when I miked it. I'm probably going to record dry though when we do the album.


----------



## Ancestor (Feb 20, 2006)

I like the dry version better. Sometimes delay or reverb can help a lot, but I think it takes a lot of skill as an engineer. 

Like on Back in Black, the vocals are effected as hell, but it doesn't really come off that way.

To my ear, anyway.


----------



## Toshiro (Feb 23, 2006)

Personally I like a hint of chorus instead of any delay on my rhythm tracks, but then I still like the tone on Iron Maiden's Somewhere In Time. 

That, and I haven't gotten heavily into recording yet.


----------



## Drew (Feb 23, 2006)

See, I HATE chorus on distorted rhythm guitars. Absolutely hate it. It sounds nice and lush and wet on its own, but it completely robs the guitar of "body" and "presence" in the mix, and makes it sit back in the distance and not call attention to itself. As an effect, that can be great for splashy, ambient clean tones that you DON'T want to jump out, but I like very punchy, agressive rhythm guitar tones, and chorus seems to rob the guitars of all their punch. 

Taste is a weird thing, eh?


----------



## Toshiro (Feb 23, 2006)

Heh. Delay makes everything muddy to me, but then I have riffs written with gallops at like 200bpm. 

I need to start double-tracking things, but then I'd need to get my timing better I guess.

Anyways, dry, I voted dry.


----------



## Leon (Feb 26, 2006)

what about dynamic delay? i've been reading up on my G-Major that i'm getting, and it does this thing called dynamic delay, where when you're rock'n out, the delay is subdued. when you're not rock'n out, the delay is present.

does anybody else know what i'm talking about here? i can post a clip if it works, when i get the unit.


----------



## Drew (Feb 26, 2006)

Eh, works better for a lead guitar sound than for rhythm, IMO - the idea is that the delay is more prominant for softer psrts than for more note-intensive, which is ideal if you want a nice, prominant delay sound that doesn't get muddy when you're playing faster. But, I like a fairly subtle delay to begin with... I screwed around with the dynamic delay on my Line6 DL-4, figuring it was the perfect answer for me, too, but ended up going back because in order to get the delay where I wanted it for faster bits (subtle, but reminiscent of a 'verb), it kicked up pretty heavy on sparser passages, and I didn't like that. I found a low delay with a couple repeats sounded more "natural," to my ears...


----------



## Vince (Feb 26, 2006)

Leon said:


> what about dynamic delay? i've been reading up on my G-Major that i'm getting, and it does this thing called dynamic delay, where when you're rock'n out, the delay is subdued. when you're not rock'n out, the delay is present.
> 
> does anybody else know what i'm talking about here? i can post a clip if it works, when i get the unit.



That's a ducking delay, and if you honestly find a solid use for it, post it. My own opinion is that ducking delay is fairly useless (though I could see some clean tone applications) and I have yet to find an application for it that I like. It's a nice trick, though, and it shows off some of the power of the TC units.


----------



## Shawn (Feb 26, 2006)

I use very little delay for rhythm only if the rhythm im playing is slow where I can have echoes of certain notes in some chords I use rhythmicly, other than that, I dont use it for rhythm guitar but a little is good for some stuff. I have a Digitech for that.

I use a Boss Digital Delay pedal for other delay sounds and I love it.


----------



## Desecrated (Mar 1, 2006)

I like it with reverb, but delay is just to much


----------

