# ESP LTD 1000 Series guitars/basses will now come stock with stainless steel frets



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 2, 2021)

https://www.espguitars.com/articles...ZAI5C_Klhgc5xjczuCgyQ2xLuxqrDDKcut7xWNxSAavEc

Will also cover the "Metal" series.

No clue if it covers the upper-tier LTD sig models.


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## T00DEEPBLUE (Jun 2, 2021)

Let me know when ESP get off their asses and make SS for the E-II's.


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## mlp187 (Jun 2, 2021)

HHTJH you always brighten up my day. LTD continues to impress me.


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## IbanezDaemon (Jun 2, 2021)

Seriously great bang for your buck guitars just got a bit better! It's all good!!


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## 4Eyes (Jun 2, 2021)

while it sounds fancy, I'd appreciate more, if they'd use something like TUSQ nuts on their guitars instead of molded plastic over SS frets to be honest


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 2, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> while it sounds fancy, I'd appreciate more, if they'd use something like TUSQ nuts on their guitars instead of molded plastic over SS frets to be honest



A nut swap is signiiiiiiificantly easier than a fret change at least.  If you're swapping to a graptech nut, you just need some sandpaper and glue.


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## mbardu (Jun 2, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> A nut swap is signiiiiiiificantly easier than a fret change at least.  If you're swapping to a graptech nut, you just need some sandpaper and glue.



For sure. Swapping the nut on a fixed bridge is like the easiest modification you could do.
Or bring it to a tech. Changing the nut will cost 15$ versus the 500$ of a stainless steel refret 

Also, it's not just that it *_sounds_* fancy. Good stainless steel frets make a very big difference.


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## 4Eyes (Jun 2, 2021)

the point is - there is nothing wrong with standard, 18% nickel frets, but graphtech nut is something I'd consider a standard feature on guitars around 1000 of money. I just miss the logic behind "upgrading" fret material and still using cheap plastic nuts.

it might be just me, but nut material was one of the things that turned my head over from LTD 1000 series to E-II, when I was making my decision on my guitar purchase


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## MASS DEFECT (Jun 2, 2021)

Annnnd Jackson still falls behind on the import race. Good move on the LTDs!


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## mbardu (Jun 2, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> the point is - there is nothing wrong with standard, 18% nickel frets, but graphtech nut is something I'd consider a standard feature on guitars around 1000 of money. I just miss the logic behind "upgrading" fret material and still using cheap plastic nuts.
> 
> it might be just me, but nut material was one of the things that turned my head over from LTD 1000 series to E-II, when I was making my decision on my guitar purchase



Logic is to offer a better guitar, with better specs, that is going to play better and attract more buyers. A better stock nut on top of that would have been even better sure, but stainless steel frets is 10x the value, especially considering how easy and inexpensive it is to upgrade a nut.

Regarding the nut, it's not just you because I've heard similar things in the past, but you're clearly missing out if you're excluding great guitars on the basis of the easiest fixable thing in luthiery. And if you're so fixated on the nut anyway, you're probably buying an aftermarket one and filing it to your string gauge and setup anyway, so it doesn't matter what the guitar originally came with.

There's nothing "wrong" with nickel sure, but stainless is measurably better on a number of metrics and for a majority of use cases so... It's the same argument as saying there was nothing wrong with payphones at the time, but everyone having a smartphone now is more convenient for the majority of people. It's just progress.


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## T00DEEPBLUE (Jun 2, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> the point is - there is nothing wrong with standard, 18% nickel frets, but graphtech nut is something I'd consider a standard feature on guitars around 1000 of money. I just miss the logic behind "upgrading" fret material and still using cheap plastic nuts.


In case you need to be reminded; Graphtech nuts are also made out of cheap plastic. The difference in what we pay comes from marketing.

String nuts are easy and cheap to replace. Frets are not. Turning down an otherwise perfect guitar because the nut isn't derived from a marketable brand name is pretty irrational.

Nickel frets are fine and get the job done but stainless steel is objectively way better performance-wise. Especially in the long term. Having brands like LTD and Solar (and even Harley Benton to some extent) offer stainless steel frets sets an example for the rest of the guitar industry to follow. It's technological progress that raises the bar for specs and quality at an affordable price. To the point that not offering stainless steel at this price point is beginning to become antiquated. And will only get more antiquated as time goes on.


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## budda (Jun 2, 2021)

At around $2kCAD, this makes a bit more sense.


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## trem licking (Jun 2, 2021)

bout time. Now everyone else needs to get onboard. stainless 4 all!


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## Hoss632 (Jun 2, 2021)

I remember when this was announced in january. Still surprised that they aren't doing stainless frets on E-II guitars. But I'm perfectly fine with most of the 1000 series LTD stuff anyways.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 2, 2021)

T00DEEPBLUE said:


> In case you need to be reminded; Graphtech nuts are also made out of cheap plastic. The difference in what we pay comes from marketing.
> 
> String nuts are easy and cheap to replace. Frets are not. Turning down an otherwise perfect guitar because the nut isn't derived from a marketable brand name is pretty irrational.
> 
> Nickel frets are fine and get the job done but stainless steel is objectively way better performance-wise. Especially in the long term. Having brands like LTD and Solar (and even Harley Benton to some extent) offer stainless steel frets sets an example for the rest of the guitar industry to follow. It's technological progress that raises the bar for specs and quality at an affordable price. To the point that not offering stainless steel at this price point is beginning to become antiquated. And will only get more antiquated as time goes on.


anyone who's used a graphtech nut vs whatever shit imports normally come with will vehemently disagree about the two being similar. Yes, in a reductive sense both are plastic, but they don't behave similarly. Nuts are the easiest upgrade and tend to make the biggest difference in terms of stability ime.


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## mbardu (Jun 2, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> I remember when this was announced in january. Still surprised that they aren't doing stainless frets on E-II guitars. But I'm perfectly fine with most of the 1000 series LTD stuff anyways.



It makes perfect sense from a product management standpoint. Those don't have a ton of overlap in terms of target audience.
People buying with specs in mind and cross-shopping LTD against high-end import Schecters or the like are no longer going to put "frets" in the drawback column for those LTDs.
People already buying E-ii over LTDs for the "MIJ aura" over specs and value are not going to change their mind because of that one thing.
People with $$$ who want the brand name on the headstock and the top specs will buy an ESP USA or higher.
The hierarchy in their product lineup is still intact.


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## Hoss632 (Jun 2, 2021)

mbardu said:


> It makes perfect sense from a product management standpoint. Those don't have a ton of overlap in terms of target audience.
> People buying with specs in mind and cross-shopping LTD against high-end import Schecters or the like are no longer going to put "frets" in the drawback column for those LTDs.
> People already buying E-ii over LTDs for the "MIJ aura" over specs and value are not going to change their mind because of that one thing.
> People with $$$ who want the brand name on the headstock and the top specs will buy an ESP USA or higher.
> The hierarchy in their product lineup is still intact.


To me it's not. But agree to disagree on this one.


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## NeglectedField (Jun 3, 2021)

Good move, though one I expect might be met with a price hike. But whaddo I know.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 3, 2021)

I like how they aren’t confident to say that SS stays smooth and doesn’t wear after upgrading their entire 1000 series with them.

As long as the frets are correctly polished it’s a good thing to have them on production guitars otherwise you still need to ad on tech fees(if you don’t have the polishing equipment yourself).


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## possumkiller (Jun 3, 2021)

It shouldn't be too hard to toss a bone nut on there.


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## Fierce_Swe (Jun 3, 2021)

Great news. Even if I'm an Solar artist these days I think I'll by a M-1000Ht when they're available...


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## budda (Jun 3, 2021)

NeglectedField said:


> Good move, though one I expect might be met with a price hike. But whaddo I know.



Prices go up annually, this just brings focus to how much the increase is.


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## Hoss632 (Jun 3, 2021)

NeglectedField said:


> Good move, though one I expect might be met with a price hike. But whaddo I know.


So far prices have pretty much stayed the same on all the 1000 series stuff.


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## T00DEEPBLUE (Jun 3, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> anyone who's used a graphtech nut vs whatever shit imports normally come with will vehemently disagree about the two being similar. Yes, in a reductive sense both are plastic, but they don't behave similarly. Nuts are the easiest upgrade and tend to make the biggest difference in terms of stability ime.


 Having used both generic plastic nuts and plenty of TUSQ ones, the material the nut is made from pales into insignificance compared to how well it's cut. I replace nuts on guitars with TUSQ if they're cut sloppily and the fit isn't as tight as it should be. But otherwise, it makes no sense to fix something that isn't broken.


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## Musiscience (Jun 3, 2021)

Oh hell yeah! That makes it even harder for me to resist another guitar. Really want a LTD now hah.


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## 4Eyes (Jun 3, 2021)

I just check thomann, first few pieces appeared in their catalog - roughly 200 EUR price increase over old 1000 series, depending on a model...


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## Zhysick (Jun 3, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> I just check thomann, first few pieces appeared in their catalog - roughly 200 EUR price increase over old 1000 series, depending on a model...



Yes, exactly. That's the second reason I ended up getting a Solar... cheaper and comparable quality if not the same. Only the pickups are less quality but considering the price difference you can get new pickups and still save some money.... fuck, I still prefer LTD as a brand but man... I hardly can justify getting a 1000€ guitar, no way I could spend 1500€ in one if I am not making money out of it...


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## gnoll (Jun 3, 2021)

I wouldn't buy a guitar in that price range that comes with a nut like that. Even if I can change it A) I don't want to have to do that and B) The fact that it comes with such a cheap nut gives the impression that ESP don't care about these guitars and just wanna cut costs any way they can.

Basically, if the nut remains what it is I don't care what the frets are, they could be diamond for all I care, I still wouldn't buy the guitar.


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## mbardu (Jun 3, 2021)

gnoll said:


> I wouldn't buy a guitar in that price range that comes with a nut like that. Even if I can change it A) I don't want to have to do that and B) The fact that it comes with such a cheap nut gives the impression that ESP don't care about these guitars and just wanna cut costs any way they can.
> 
> Basically, if the nut remains what it is I don't care what the frets are, they could be diamond for all I care, I still wouldn't buy the guitar.



That's fine, and it's a free country after all 

It's just a bit like a car manufacturer offering a car with a more solid frame, and a better engine that doesn't require maintenance, but going with the other brand, with a wobbly unreliable engine and cardboard frame just because the latter has a bit better stock tires. It's just not a better choice for the majority of folks


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## nickgray (Jun 3, 2021)

It's not just the nut, it's the total lack of shaping. They just glue it in and call it a day.

As far as stainless steel... damn, I wish manufacturers would start addressing small, but really annoying problems. What about stainless steel screws? Everybody uses piece of shit screws that start stripping out at the slightest pressure, the finish is a few atoms thick at most, you'll mar it if you so much as sneeze at it.

Direct mount humbuckers. First of all, those goddamn screws. Second, the route is shit. How come no one figured out that there needs to be a channel for the thick ass wire in the pickup cavity? Otherwise the wire will always pinch the damn foam. You'll have a small angle on the pickups as a result. And the foam? Too thick and for some reason always too short.

Ghetto potentiometers and switches. Some wobble, some crackle, some have play in them, I got an LTD with a stiff volume and near frictionless tone (you sneeze on it - it moves).

OEM tuners - got a Solar and two LTDs with some tuners that had tiny bit of play in them due to the knobs not fitting the shafts as tightly as they needed. Again, why? This is just another of those penny pinching bullshit things.

Jacks - cheapest loose af jacks possible.

I mean, I realize that on, let's say, $500 and below guitars penny pinching is kind of okay, but the shitty screws, they're just everywhere. It's like nobody cares about screw quality or something.


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## mbardu (Jun 3, 2021)

nickgray said:


> It's not just the nut, it's the total lack of shaping. They just glue it in and call it a day.
> 
> As far as stainless steel... damn, I wish manufacturers would start addressing small, but really annoying problems. What about stainless steel screws? Everybody uses piece of shit screws that start stripping out at the slightest pressure, the finish is a few atoms thick at most, you'll mar it if you so much as sneeze at it.
> 
> ...



Penny pinching pretty much everywhere, that's modern manufacturing for you 
This kind of thing is where you will see a difference with good USA or Euro builders if you spend the extra $$$.
At least most of those though, they are not too difficult or expensive to fix, which means a lot of imports nowadays are great great guitars with just a bit of effort. A far cry from what was the case in the past where even the basic the construction itself was often shoddy.



nickgray said:


> It's like nobody cares about screw quality or something.



Exactly...nobody cares about the screws when looking at the specs of a guitar online and ordering it from Sweetwater. So why bother and waste a precious percent of $$$ margin?


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## AboutBlank (Jun 4, 2021)

Boutique demands for mass production at cheap prices where every penny counts (and is checked at least three times), yup.


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## Marked Man (Jun 4, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> I just check thomann, first few pieces appeared in their catalog - roughly 200 EUR price increase over old 1000 series, depending on a model...



You'd easily spend $400-$500 USD to get an existing guitar refretted in SS, and you'd have to hope the guy you are paying is good.

ESP factory SS frets for 200 Euros? I'm in!


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Jun 4, 2021)

I wish they’d include them on the 87 series. But that’s not exactly period correct. Curious to see if they include them to all E II’s next year.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 4, 2021)

Will there be any identifiers like "ec-1000SS" or something?


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Jun 4, 2021)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Will there be any identifiers like "ec-1000SS" or something?


I could be wrong, but I don’t think so. You would need to confirm it with the seller to make sure they are indeed SS to be safe.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Jun 4, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I wish they’d include them on the 87 series. But that’s not exactly period correct. Curious to see if they include them to all E II’s next year.



Neither is the headstock . It's the main thing that put me off them.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Jun 4, 2021)

Marked Man said:


> You'd easily spend $400-$500 USD to get an existing guitar refretted in SS, and you'd have to hope the guy you are paying is good.
> 
> ESP factory SS frets for 200 Euros? I'm in!



Damn, my local luthier will do a SS refret for €190, and this is in an expensive part of Western Europe.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 4, 2021)

ITT: Folks who don't like setting up their guitars vs. folks who don't like performing regular maintenance on their guitars.


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## Thrashman (Jun 5, 2021)

Fierce_Swe said:


> Great news. Even if I'm an Solar artist these days


Like everyone else on this forum?


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 5, 2021)

nickgray said:


> It's not just the nut, it's the total lack of shaping. They just glue it in and call it a day.
> 
> As far as stainless steel... damn, I wish manufacturers would start addressing small, but really annoying problems. What about stainless steel screws? Everybody uses piece of shit screws that start stripping out at the slightest pressure, the finish is a few atoms thick at most, you'll mar it if you so much as sneeze at it.
> 
> ...



Well, yeah... you're buying a mass-made instrument which is run off a production line in a factory of a low-wage country. The factory workers are minimum wage employees, not luthiers. And the factory is run by managers who are under pressure to deliver X amount of instruments in Y time. Time is money, and the time checking and fixing problems easily eats the profit margin. If you buy an "import" guitar, you know what you're getting.

If you want everything perfect, get an ESP Original. Those are skilled workers and they take the time to make it all right.


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## nickgray (Jun 5, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> The factory workers are minimum wage employees



Korea has a minimum wage of $7.52. Indonesia is indeed low though, apparently between $100-200 a month. Absolute comparison aren't super useful though because food, rent, etc. is always relative to wages (Indonesian low wage workers aren't getting a GeForce 3080 any time soon though).

None of that matters though, because you've no idea how much they're actually paid. Where did you get the info that it's specifically minimum wage?



Flappydoodle said:


> And the factory is run by managers who are under pressure to deliver X amount of instruments in Y time



But we're not talking about Cort branded guitars (or any other factory brand). LTD and tons of other brands define their own specs, build quality, and they do their own QC. I'm way more pissed at these companies rather than at the factories. It makes sense that the factories themselves will try to cheap out. LTD selling a $1k guitar with mismatched pot friction, shitty switch, etc. is a bit silly.

Again, I'm not asking for crazy custom shop stuff. I'm sure they can order slightly better pots and switches. They can definitely procure slightly better screws that don't strip out if you sneeze on them. Just some basic shit. It's annoying.



Flappydoodle said:


> If you buy an "import" guitar, you know what you're getting



Yes, but I still can rant about it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 5, 2021)

Eh, unless folks stop buying them, there's no incentive to do better as far as those seemingly small touches. 

Folks these days buy guitars over the internet based on spec sheet, and "stainless steel pickguard screws" isn't going to move the needle one way or another. 

I will say though, if you're stripping so many screws, you're probably using the wrong tool. A bunch of bits might fit, but that doesn't mean they're the right one to use. I always highly recommend getting a good fine use bit driver set, decent ones are really cheap these days.


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## nickgray (Jun 5, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> if you're stripping so many screws



They're just slightly stripped. I mean it's not that big of a deal, I get that. But it's also not that big of a deal to provide decent screws in the first place - that's my point 



MaxOfMetal said:


> I always highly recommend getting a good fine use bit driver set



Hmm, could be a good idea. But I dunno, they work fine on most stuff, it's just that some screws seem to be made of cheap af metal that dents extremely easily.



MaxOfMetal said:


> and "stainless steel pickguard screws" isn't going to move the needle one way or another



True. But then my Solar has by far the smoothest and nicest truss rod. Not in the specs, but they sure didn't cheap out on that. It also has shitty small pots that crackle (finally managed to order Deoxit, we don't have it here locally and I just barely found the right one that had could've been shipped internationally by Amazon), and the jack is super cheap.

I'm not just ranting about cheaping out on stuff, it's also just general design. Guitars are annoyingly conservative in pretty much everything. Floyd Rose claws have spring hooks that are too shallow and shitty. Floating bridges and trems should come with easy options to block them with no fuss, I'm talking about having routes where you can just easily insert a piece of something that comes with the bridge and block it. Truss rod adjustment cavities are always annoyingly tiny, and the cover is just another one of those things where they cheap out and don't want to make the route look nice, so they slap a cover. Direct mount pickups should have metal inserts in the wood and a good spring system instead of shitty foam. They should also have channels routed for wires.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 5, 2021)

nickgray said:


> They're just slightly stripped. I mean it's not that big of a deal, I get that. But it's also not that big of a deal to provide decent screws in the first place - that's my point
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Aside from _no one really caring about any of that shit_, the problem branches out into time and money. 

Cleaning up truss rod routes, checking every single pot, installing inserts, etc. that takes time, and time is money. Margins on a lot of this stuff is fairly low, so the OEMs will always try and maximize profits, so something as small as a screw or a pot adds up when you buy millions of them. 

There are plenty of builders out there that charge a reasonable amount more than top price LTDs that do care about that stuff, so it's easy enough to vote with your wallet. 

Don't get me wrong, I've been working on guitars for decades, I get it. It would make my life much better if these things were built a bit better and out of better stuff, but it is what it is.


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 5, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Korea has a minimum wage of $7.52. Indonesia is indeed low though, apparently between $100-200 a month. Absolute comparison aren't super useful though because food, rent, etc. is always relative to wages (Indonesian low wage workers aren't getting a GeForce 3080 any time soon though).
> 
> None of that matters though, because you've no idea how much they're actually paid. Where did you get the info that it's specifically minimum wage?



Not just wages, but also all the other costs of running the factory. That's why things are outsourced. Either way, the Indonesian putting in the frets doesn't give two shits about your guitar. The guys at the ESP shop in Japan do.



> But we're not talking about Cort branded guitars (or any other factory brand). LTD and tons of other brands define their own specs, build quality, and they do their own QC. I'm way more pissed at these companies rather than at the factories. It makes sense that the factories themselves will try to cheap out. LTD selling a $1k guitar with mismatched pot friction, shitty switch, etc. is a bit silly.



This is true that the companies set the parameters etc, but the factories definitely try to cut corners. And usually the factory will take care of most QC. You're right that it's up to the company to handle QC. I know PRS takes a lot of pride in their QC in the Asian factories.

And not to sound like a tit, but a $1K guitar just isn't as expensive or premium as it used to be. Inflation has caught up a lot. Prices of absolutely everything are going up like crazy.



> Again, I'm not asking for crazy custom shop stuff. I'm sure they can order slightly better pots and switches. They can definitely procure slightly better screws that don't strip out if you sneeze on them. Just some basic shit. It's annoying.



Yeah. I see your point. But end of the day, most people don't care, and those aren't selling points. The companies also have to differentiate their product lines. And for things like bone nuts, they have to leave out a couple of things you want, otherwise there's no reason to go E-II.


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## Fierce_Swe (Jun 8, 2021)

Well, it's not that hard to become one..... 

Oops! Quote went away......


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## mbardu (Jun 8, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> Not just wages, but also all the other costs of running the factory. That's why things are outsourced. Either way, the Indonesian putting in the frets doesn't give two shits about your guitar. The guys at the ESP shop in Japan do.
> 
> And not to sound like a tit, but a $1K guitar just isn't as expensive or premium as it used to be. Inflation has caught up a lot. Prices of absolutely everything are going up like crazy.



We don't really know much about the quality and motivation of the Indonesian staff so all you're doing here is imagining and speculating. Are wages going to be lower, yeah for sure. But look at the kind of jokes that Jackson or Gibson are able to produce in the US with people paid big $$$ and you'll see there needn't be as direct a correlation between wages and quality.

Fact is, a lot of import guitars nowadays are shockingly good. Some have inherently less expensive materials or components going into them, true. But that's by design in order to meet a price point, and with CNC and standardization, a lot of pretty inexpensive instruments now have "good bones". If some brands prefer not to invest the extra $$$ for full QC at the factory or after, it's on them. Some brands (probably not ESP Custom, I'll give you that) don't even invest the $$$ for QC on their 8k$ Custom Shop guitars so there are more egregious things to be mad about out there . Sure the great import stuff may cost you 1200 to 1500 vs 800 to 1000 a few years back, but that hasn't increased any faster than the Japanese, US or Euro stuff.


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## Ted Pikul (Jun 8, 2021)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Annnnd Jackson still falls behind on the import race. Good move on the LTDs!



I'm an LTD fanboy. I just got a Jackson Pro Soloist, built in Indonesia, very simple, 2 humbuckers, 3 pickup positions, no coil-splitting or anything. The build quality and sound quality put it next to my LTD 1000s, no question. I'm very happily surprised.



Hoss632 said:


> So far prices have pretty much stayed the same on all the 1000 series stuff.



I hope this spec doesn't bump 1000 series prices up too much.


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## mbardu (Jun 8, 2021)

Ted Pikul said:


> I'm an LTD fanboy. I just got a Jackson Pro Soloist, built in Indonesia, very simple, 2 humbuckers, 3 pickup positions, no coil-splitting or anything. The build quality and sound quality put it next to my LTD 1000s, no question. I'm very happily surprised.



Yep but that's kinda the point. I have a recent SL2Q Pro that is also great, and now on par with any import in terms of build quality.
So after pretty bad years in 2015/2017, they're catching up ... but just when they do, LTD now adds stainless steel frets which is another leap forward that's going to take Jackson a few years to replicate.


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## MASS DEFECT (Jun 8, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Yep but that's kinda the point. I have a recent SL2Q Pro that is also great, and now on par with any import in terms of build quality.
> So after pretty bad years in 2015/2017, they're catching up ... but just when they do, LTD now adds stainless steel frets which is another leap forward that's going to take Jackson a few years to replicate.


Exactly. I hope those Korean Wildcard models get to stay to compete with LTD1000 series. Then let's see how the new Japan series fare against the EII line.


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## 4Eyes (Jun 9, 2021)

Seabeast2000 said:


> Will there be any identifiers like "ec-1000SS" or something?


it doesn't seem so, at least per listings on Thomann - they have SS in description, increased price, but no annotation in the product name. 



Ataraxia2320 said:


> Damn, my local luthier will do a SS refret for €190, and this is in an expensive part of Western Europe.


mine, who built my custom guitar, quoted 130 Eur for SS frets and I'm pretty sure he'll do damn great work


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## mbardu (Jun 9, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> mine, who built my custom guitar, quoted 130 Eur for SS frets and I'm pretty sure he'll do damn great work



Id say there's a big difference between small extra cost of installing stainless frets _instead_ of nickel on a brand new board (id argue 130 euros is actually on the expensive side for that _difference_) vs refretting a guitar which already had non stainless in place. For the latter, 190 definitely sounds low.


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## 4Eyes (Jun 9, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Id say there's a big difference between small extra cost of installing stainless frets _instead_ of nickel on a brand new board (id argue 130 euros is actually on the expensive side for that _difference_) vs refretting a guitar which already had non stainless in place. For the latter, 190 definitely sounds low.


I asked for refret cost, it's 100 vs 130€ / nickel vs SS, I need to do some maintenance on one of my guitars


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## mbardu (Jun 9, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> I asked for refret cost, it's 100 vs 130€ / nickel vs SS, I need to do some maintenance on one of my guitars



My bad, I thought you were talking about cost of stainless for your new custom build.
Anything below at least 300 euros/250 Pounds sounds ridiculously low for France/the UK, but sounds like it's much lower elsewhere.


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## 4Eyes (Jun 9, 2021)

mbardu said:


> My bad, I thought you were talking about cost of stainless for your new custom build.
> Anything below at least 300 euros/250 Pounds sounds ridiculously low for France/the UK, but sounds like it's much lower elsewhere.


no problem, mate. I made my statement not very clear. Slovakia is definitely on the cheaper end of EU, although that is also reflected across all life areas and, unfortunately, standard of living is not as high as in other western EU countries. yet not that bad as it may sound from my previous sentence.


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## Matt08642 (Jun 9, 2021)

nickgray said:


> It's not just the nut, it's the total lack of shaping. They just glue it in and call it a day.
> 
> As far as stainless steel... damn, I wish manufacturers would start addressing small, but really annoying problems. What about stainless steel screws? Everybody uses piece of shit screws that start stripping out at the slightest pressure, the finish is a few atoms thick at most, you'll mar it if you so much as sneeze at it.



Ibanez/Gotoh is extra bad for this, their Cosmo finishes look like the plating wore off to reveal an oil slick:




I think this bridge used to be dark chrome or something lmao


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## nickgray (Jun 9, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> Cosmo



Lol, don't get me started on that Gotoh's Cosmo BS  My Cosmo Black finish transformed to Cosmo Nickel years ago. I'm not even sure what's the problem with the nut bar and the locks, at least the trem I can understand, but that bar... wtf  The guitar finish chips like crazy too, but it's a known issue afaik, they're kinda infamous for that. The tuners are also Cosmo Black and they look like ass, the finish is sort of peeling off like thin paper for some reason, and it's not like I ever used them, it's a floating trem guitar.





I also have a Tonepros tune-o-matic on an LTD Eclipse. The guitar is really quite new, but the finish on the saddles is already a bit stripped. If this was my main guitar it would've probably looked like those nut locks after a year of playing.


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## HoneyNut (Jun 22, 2021)

nickgray said:


> View attachment 94510
> View attachment 94511



That's a good disgusting reminder. I wonder if the newer models or the Edge in black faced the same issue. I know the RG2550 suffered from this, I think it had the cosmo bridge, as did the 770 reissue, had ugly wear on it.  

Yes, I really hope companies start upping their hardware qualities, not just features. It shouldn't be an excuse now, for 1K we get really powerful phones with incredible capabilities.


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## AboutBlank (Jun 22, 2021)

HoneyNut said:


> It shouldn't be an excuse now, for 1K we get really powerful phones with incredible capabilities.



How is manufacturing or even sales markets for phones and guitar hardware comparable?


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## Bordcla (Jun 23, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> the point is - there is nothing wrong with standard, 18% nickel frets, but graphtech nut is something I'd consider a standard feature on guitars around 1000 of money. I just miss the logic behind "upgrading" fret material and still using cheap plastic nuts.
> 
> it might be just me, but nut material was one of the things that turned my head over from LTD 1000 series to E-II, when I was making my decision on my guitar purchase



Why such attachment to older tech as if it was sacrilege to want to improve it?

The problem isn't the 18% nickle. It's the 60% copper, which is as soft as chewing gum.

I have a 4-month old PRS with flattened fret tops and sharp fret edges from where, cause I played a lot on it. 

I have one of those new LTDs with stainless frets that I've also been playing a sh!t ton on. The frets are still mirror polished and as new.

I like the PRS better, but certainly wish it had the LTD's fretwork. It would be nothing but an improvement in an area where "old school" is only a liability; I'm gonna have to figure how to get that damn guitar regretted in no more than a couple of years.


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## budda (Jun 23, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Why such attachment to older tech as if it was sacrilege to want to improve it?
> 
> The problem isn't the 18% nickle. It's the 60% copper, which is as soft as chewing gum.
> 
> ...



I toured an S2 for 100+ shows a year for 3 years, plus 2x weekly rehearsals. No refrets, no fret issues, just setups before recording or going on the road for a week+.

Your issue sounds more to me like you should reevalute your technique, as most players dont have this issue. Doesnt mean other brands shouldnt consider ss frets (give it 5 years), but that reads as excessive force. Said excessive force may lead to tissue damage way sooner than later.


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## 4Eyes (Jun 23, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Why such attachment to older tech as if it was sacrilege to want to improve it?
> 
> The problem isn't the 18% nickle. It's the 60% copper, which is as soft as chewing gum.


because my main, and only, guitar for the past 11-12 years, had hard 18%Ni fret wire, was played almost daily and while frets are not like new, they're not disaster either and I'm certain they'd take another couple of years of abuse before need to re-fret the board. I don't blindly defend nickel fret wire, but based on my experience with hard nickel frets I don't get the obsession for SS frets over them. Some people behave like you need to re-fret every string change if you don't have SS frets. (or maybe they use very old strings)


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## Bordcla (Jun 23, 2021)

I've never felt or been pointed to anything inherently wrong with my technique. I guess it depends how much you bend and the pressure I put is just enough for the note to continue sounding clear and not dying, no more. I'm sure stuff like action height and string gauges also play a role

Be that as it may, I have one of the new EC1000s with SS frets. Cheap plastic nut and cost-cutting offshore production notwithstanding, this is the best set up, most playable of any guitar I own, including 3 PRSs and a Prestige Ibanez AZ, all worth anywhere from 50% more to twice as much as the LTD.

It's too bad the neck shape is so disappointing (too thin, shoulders too pointy) and a bit uncomfortable, because it really does play better than all of the other ones I have. It even sounds good and resonate as well as any of my better guitars.


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## Bordcla (Jun 23, 2021)

4Eyes said:


> because my main, and only, guitar for the past 11-12 years, had hard 18%Ni fret wire, was played almost daily and while frets are not like new, they're not disaster either and I'm certain they'd take another couple of years of abuse before need to re-fret the board. I don't blindly defend nickel fret wire, but based on my experience with hard nickel frets I don't get the obsession for SS frets over them. Some people behave like you need to re-fret every string change if you don't have SS frets. (or maybe they use very old strings)



Not saying what you have is bad. We're saying there's better out there. Easier to play. No wear to ever think about. As long as it is well installed, SS is simply an improvement over nickel.

Why the need to defend what you have so bad? Not taking it away from you. 

Had SS been the material of choice 60 years ago and if people were today suggesting to move to nickel, you'd be outraged.


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## budda (Jun 23, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Not saying what you have is bad. We're saying there's better out there. Easier to play. No wear to ever think about. As long as it is well installed, SS is simply an improvement over nickel.
> 
> Why the need to defend what you have so bad? Not taking it away from you.
> 
> Had SS been the material of choice 60 years ago and if people were today suggesting to move to nickel, you'd be outraged.



Do tube vs digital next


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## Bordcla (Jun 23, 2021)

budda said:


> Do tube vs digital next



Only discussing improvements!


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## budda (Jun 23, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Only discussing improvements!



Like I said, do tube vs digital next


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## 4Eyes (Jun 23, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Not saying what you have is bad. We're saying there's better out there. Easier to play. No wear to ever think about. As long as it is well installed, SS is simply an improvement over nickel.
> 
> Why the need to defend what you have so bad? Not taking it away from you.
> 
> Had SS been the material of choice 60 years ago and if people were today suggesting to move to nickel, you'd be outraged.


I'm not defending, I just don't get why people complain about guitars not having SS frets these days like it was end of the world, while in fact it is not.

just to prove to you I'm not against progress - the guitar I mentioned above is on the way to luthier for re-fret with SS frets, I have an Ibby Prestige on the way with SS frets from factory. My E-II Eclipse doesn't have SS frets, it cost more than LTD1000, and I'm completely fine about it because I know, that with other guitars in my rack it will take at least 10-15 years before it'll reach the point when it needs some maintenance on the fretboard.

tube vs digital - I made my transition from tube amp to vst plugins and I'm happy, if I was giging my tour rig would be deffo HX stomp, although I can still appreciate nice wooosh from cranked 50-100W tube half stack


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## Bordcla (Jun 23, 2021)

Back to those LTDs. Seriously. Not sure if it's the dealer I bought it from or if it came that way from the factory, but the setup and playability on it put all of my other guitars to shame. 

If someone is looking for a workhorse that sounds great and plays as well as anything, I'd be hard-pressed to recommend spending more on anything else. 

Wish list: give me the exact same guitar with a neck 3 mm thicker and with broader shoulders for thumb support, and I might not ever need to play anything else.


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## Hoss632 (Jun 25, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Back to those LTDs. Seriously. Not sure if it's the dealer I bought it from or if it came that way from the factory, but the setup and playability on it put all of my other guitars to shame.
> 
> If someone is looking for a workhorse that sounds great and plays as well as anything, I'd be hard-pressed to recommend spending more on anything else.
> 
> Wish list: give me the exact same guitar with a neck 3 mm thicker and with broader shoulders for thumb support, and I might not ever need to play anything else.


I'm kind of in the same boat. I'm very very drawn to the ESP eclipses and the 1000 series LTD's offer plenty of nice options. So I'm basically now trying to decide on an eclipse to upgrade to or if Imma wait for the new epiphone matt heafy les paul's next year.


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## possumkiller (Jun 25, 2021)

nickgray said:


> It's not just the nut, it's the total lack of shaping. They just glue it in and call it a day.
> 
> As far as stainless steel... damn, I wish manufacturers would start addressing small, but really annoying problems. What about stainless steel screws? Everybody uses piece of shit screws that start stripping out at the slightest pressure, the finish is a few atoms thick at most, you'll mar it if you so much as sneeze at it.
> 
> ...


And this is the biggest reason I hate on LTDs and other MiK, MiI, MiC budget guitars creeping up on professional Japanese and USA guitars in prices. No hard cases or even gig bags most of the time. Shit nuts. Shit small parts. There definitely is a difference in screws. Indo Ibanez guitars costing more than some of the Japanese Ibanez models yet no case, shit hardware, shit fit and finish. They just slap together some exotic woods and veneers rather shittily and then slap on some bkps with the same small parts and craftsmanship as a $400 standard series and call it a 1700$ guitar. Fuck that.


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## Bordcla (Jun 25, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> And this is the biggest reason I hate on LTDs and other MiK, MiI, MiC budget guitars creeping up on professional Japanese and USA guitars in prices. No hard cases or even gig bags most of the time. Shit nuts. Shit small parts. There definitely is a difference in screws. Indo Ibanez guitars costing more than some of the Japanese Ibanez models yet no case, shit hardware, shit fit and finish. They just slap together some exotic woods and veneers rather shittily and then slap on some bkps with the same small parts and craftsmanship as a $400 standard series and call it a 1700$ guitar. Fuck that.



That's not an accurate depiction of the guitar I got. Sure, the finish is no Custom Shop's. I'm not a fan of the foam propped direct mount pickups. Other than that, the guitar doesn't look, sound, feel or play cheap.


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## budda (Jun 25, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> And this is the biggest reason I hate on LTDs and other MiK, MiI, MiC budget guitars creeping up on professional Japanese and USA guitars in prices. No hard cases or even gig bags most of the time. Shit nuts. Shit small parts. There definitely is a difference in screws. Indo Ibanez guitars costing more than some of the Japanese Ibanez models yet no case, shit hardware, shit fit and finish. They just slap together some exotic woods and veneers rather shittily and then slap on some bkps with the same small parts and craftsmanship as a $400 standard series and call it a 1700$ guitar. Fuck that.



Suhrs and fanos ship with gigbags too.


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## possumkiller (Jun 25, 2021)

budda said:


> Suhrs and fanos ship with gigbags too.


And that is a case. How many LTDs or Iron Labels or Axxxion Labels ship with anything more than a cardboard box?

With most of these newer super expensive imports, you have to buy your own case. If you actually shell out for a proper hard case, you'll be spending as much as you would for an EII or Prestige that come with a case. Not only that but have higher quality screws, pots, jacks, nuts, fit and finish.


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## budda (Jun 25, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> And that is a case. How many LTDs or Iron Labels or Axxxion Labels ship with anything more than a cardboard box?



If my $1600 eastman can come with a well built HSC, why cant a fano at 2x the price?


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## nickgray (Jun 25, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Shit nuts. Shit small parts.



Higher end LTDs used to have Schaller locking tuners or Grovers, and compensated nuts. I've looked into ESP catalogues recently (unrelated to this), and yep, just as I remembered, not only were the specs better, the price/quality was better. Today's Deluxes are more like what 350/360 series used to be or 400. And nowadays, 400 series are almost gone too, the high end is almost entirely 1000 series.


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## Bordcla (Jun 25, 2021)

What's the hangup about the cases? If you're gigging professionally or seriously, you likely have some sort of roadcase to hold the multiple guitars you take to the stage.

If not, how many guitars do you take with you at a given time? I have more cases and gigbags than I know what to do with, and when taking on guitar with me, I just grab my favorite bag of the lot.

The only time this is ever an issue is when selling and shipping. Admittedly a headache, but would you systematically pay $100 more on every guitar you buy to get a hard case?

So far, I'm reading a lot of complaints about the guitars being shit for using shit parts and coming with no case.

Yet no playtest reports or any confirmation of the guitars actually being or playing like shit. As I said, my sample of 1 of mine plus 4 or 5 earlier 1000s on shop floors suggest they are perfectly good. Mine is better than that by quite a margin, to the point where I'd wish my more expensive, usa-built, pedigreed instruments played as well.


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## mbardu (Jun 25, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> And this is the biggest reason I hate on LTDs and other MiK, MiI, MiC budget guitars creeping up on professional Japanese and USA guitars in prices. No hard cases or even gig bags most of the time. Shit nuts. Shit small parts. There definitely is a difference in screws. Indo Ibanez guitars costing more than some of the Japanese Ibanez models yet no case, shit hardware, shit fit and finish. They just slap together some exotic woods and veneers rather shittily and then slap on some bkps with the same small parts and craftsmanship as a $400 standard series and call it a 1700$ guitar. Fuck that.



Have you even tried the guitars you're speaking of?
Try a premium like the RG6PCM or RG6PKAG and see for real - those are not the guitars you think they are. Hardware is the same as on Prestige guitars, the (stainless steel btw) fretwork puts a lot recent Prestiges to shame...and whoops they actually do come with a case that's even arguably better that the shitty plastic Prestige one. Only extra you really get with the Japanese guitar is the "Prestige" name on the headstock.

Are there lower-tier Indo guitars that come with inferior hardware and no case? For sure, but then they cost 600$, not 1600$.


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## nickgray (Jun 25, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> Yet no playtest reports or any confirmation of the guitars actually being or playing like shit



Well, I have two 1000s MiK with lifting frets, wobbly and scratchy knobs, one was wired wrong (and had a hideously fast turning tone pot), multiple cosmetic issues (which I don't mind too much because I didn't get them at full price), some of the tuners have a tiny bit of play and they not as smooth as Gotohs. Stopbar post routes on the Eclipse were routed too deep. Nuts are absolute fucking disasters on both. Sharp ends (which I shittily smoothed myself), the G string doesn't stay in tune (but it's tolerable after some terrible DIY slot shaping and a copious amount of lube), and in general the string catch on the nut.

I can't complain too much because as I've mentioned, I didn't get them at full price, and I knew that I might have to give them to a tech (my luck didn't help me here either, but that's another story, and it's not related to the QC on the guitars themselves). But fucking hell, if somebody gets such a guitar at full $1-1.2k? That's a massive ripoff. And sure, you guys in the US and in the EU can just send back guitars back to your gigantic online shops no questions asked, but not all of us are so lucky.

For me, moral of the story was - probably get an MiJ or MiA. Hurts the wallet, but after a year or two the pain subsides, and you're left with an actual good instrument. Or just be prepared to pay for extra fretwork, nut replacement, and some other unforeseen shit, plus you'll get shoddy electronics, plus minor cosmetic flaws that might or might not add up.

Not that they're bad guitars per se, but they're more like semi-disposable instruments that you get for live and practice, and you'll be totally okay if someone spilled beer on them. But the fucking prices though... these should be like $500-700 tops.


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## nickgray (Jun 25, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Try a premium like



A lot of Premiums seem to have Edge Zero II, and they put these even in very budget Indos like RG370DXZ. $1k Genesis series can afford the real Edge, but a $1.4k Premium gets the same trem as a $500-ish guitar?


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## mbardu (Jun 25, 2021)

nickgray said:


> A lot of Premiums seem to have Edge Zero II, and they put these even in very budget Indos like RG370DXZ. $1k Genesis series can afford the real Edge, but a $1.4k Premium gets the same trem as a $500-ish guitar?



Notwithstanding the fact that some Premiums have the same Edge trems as some Prestige, that some Prestige have also had Z trems in the past, and that there's nothing wrong with that particular bridge, should I point out that the Genesis series is using Infinity pickups? Infinity pickups as in 200$ dollars GIOs? Your "logic" cuts both ways.

Sure, manufacturers shift their specs and parts around, that's not news.

As for the Genesis vs RG Premium, sure you do get the retro look and "Made in Japan" writing, but could be at the cost of a poorly-finished instrument with abysmal fretwork. Not worth it IMO, but it's just my opinion. It's good to have options.

Edit: And now that I think about it, the Genesis actually comes _without a case_, doesn't it? So it has the worst guitar sin ever according to some people lmao  . At least those nice Premiums have a nice case.


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## Bordcla (Jun 25, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Notwithstanding the fact that some Premiums have the same Edge trems as some Prestige, that some Prestige have also had Z trems in the past, and that there's nothing wrong with that particular bridge, should I point out that the Genesis series is using Infinity pickups? Infinity pickups as in 200$ dollars GIOs? Your "logic" cuts both ways.
> 
> Sure, manufacturers shift their specs and parts around, that's not news.
> 
> ...



Don't know where you got your Genesis but the one I got from Rich at Ibanez rules (without even going for one of the extensive service package) was flawless.

That said, there's no point in trying to convince those who won't hear it.

Maybe I just got lucky or this other guy got really unlucky with a total dud.

As with anything, try before you buy. You might be surprised, in a good way as I was.


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## mbardu (Jun 25, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> As with anything, try before you buy. You might be surprised, in a good way as I was.



I actually agree with this one 
And it also applies to those Premiums if you can forget the name on the headstock and give them a chance.
I've seen way more biased "made in Indo = poop" or "the first batches were bad back in 2012" comments than legitimate criticism of the recent production.

I don't have a problem believing you would have received a great Genesis from Rich either. 
I doubt he would ship (or even accept receipt of) anything really bad, and he stands behind his stuff even without the top packages.
Japanese Ibanez has not been entirely consistent those past few years is all...


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## nickgray (Jun 25, 2021)

mbardu said:


> that some Prestige have also had Z trems in the past



Edge Zero II is the budget trem. Edge Zero is the high end one. Still, afaik, both are made in China, and people were pretty upset about the new trems, and they pretty quickly just reverted back to Edges and Lo-Pros.



mbardu said:


> So it has the worst guitar sin ever according to some people lmao



Imo, gig bags should come for free in two quality tiers. And cases should be optional and sold with a discount for high end productions. Best of both worlds. Cases should be good too. Prestige cases are shit - the walls are thin, they're flimsy, and on the inside is basically styro with glued fabric. Mine still smells like someone pissed in it (I promise I didn't...) 10 years later. For some reason the control cavity in my Ibby also smells like someone pissed in it (you probably don't believe it wasn't me by this point...).


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## mbardu (Jun 25, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Edge Zero II is the budget trem. Edge Zero is the high end one. Still, afaik, both are made in China, and people were pretty upset about the new trems, and they pretty quickly just reverted back to Edges and Lo-Pros.



I know the Zero II is the "entry" level. It's still no slouch though, and in terms of product differentiation, no different or worse IMO than putting "infinity" pickups in a MIJ guitar.



> Imo, gig bags should come for free in two quality tiers. And cases should be optional and sold with a discount for high end productions. Best of both worlds. Cases should be good too. Prestige cases are shit - the walls are thin, they're flimsy, and on the inside is basically styro with glued fabric. Mine still smells like someone pissed in it (I promise I didn't...) 10 years later. For some reason the control cavity in my Ibby also smells like someone pissed in it (you probably don't believe it wasn't me by this point...).



At least we agree around the Prestige case. Not sure how people see it as such a benefit while it's actually so bad.
Very little additional protection too for the amount of unnecessary bulk.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 25, 2021)

nickgray said:


> Edge Zero II is the budget trem. Edge Zero is the high end one. Still, afaik, both are made in China, and people were pretty upset about the new trems, and they pretty quickly just reverted back to Edges and Lo-Pros.



The Edge Zero was, and is, one of the most popular and best selling trems Ibanez has used. The reason for discontinuation in some markets (it's still found home market for example) was two fold: 1) an IP lawsuit over the Zero System (which was settled), and 2) the expiration of Floyd Rose's patents. These two factors made the Original Edge and Lo-Pro the more economical option globally (despite manufacturing source) so the switch was made.

Now, if you want to talk about a bridge no one liked, that would be the Edge Pro. 



mbardu said:


> putting "infinity" pickups in a MIJ guitar



The current Ibanez V and specifically the "INF R(S)" found in the Genesis were designed by DiMarzio and manufactured by Artek. 

I can see how you'd confuse them with the Infinity series MIC OEMs from the early 00's, but the relation is in name only (we all know how Ibanez can be with names) for one specific pickup. Most Genesis have period correct V series in all spots, minus the RG565. 

Back to y'alls argument about cases.


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## mbardu (Jun 25, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The current Ibanez V and specifically the "INF R(S)" found in the Genesis were designed by DiMarzio and manufactured by Artek.
> 
> I can see how you'd confuse them with the Infinity series MIC OEMs from the early 00's, but the relation is in name only (we all know how Ibanez can be with names) for one specific pickup. Most Genesis have period correct V series in all spots, minus the RG565.
> 
> Back to y'alls argument about cases.



I didn't say the Infinity pickups were the same as early 00's ones did I? Or that they were bad per se. They went through a bunch of revisions of course, and the "new" infinity R pickups (aren't they already about 5 year old though?) are indeed derived from the Ibz/DiMarzio (that I happen to like), and I have 0 problem with them being manufactured by Artek either (I have a couple of Artek pickups that I actually like a lot too).

I have 0 problem with Ibanez purchasing them by the boatload and putting them on half their guitars. But as a result, the fact is that those same inexpensive outsourced R pickups are present on guitars that retail for as little as 200$ (150$ if you include Mikros), so that was just my reaction to "bUt tHiS gUiTaR HaS sAmE bRiDgE aS a MoRe ChEaPeR oNe So iTs BaD".

Sure, some expensive premiums have an Edge Zero II, and yeah some less expensive guitars have one too. But not only is that bridge pretty nice to start with, the argument of shared parts doesn't necessarily play in the Genesis' favor in that scenario where they correlate sith quality. And unlike the pickups, that bridge for sure would be cost prohibitive for something like a GIO.


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## AboutBlank (Jun 25, 2021)

Oh how I'd love to take some of you out on a date sometime:

First it's off to the ice cream parlour.
But they can't be serious, can they? ... years ago, that was only 0.03 for the scoop.

Then we buy a barrel of oil.
This can't be true, well at least my rent remains constant.

And without a hint of irony, we can all look forward to the current 10%-15% increase on all consumer goods.


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## I play music (Jun 26, 2021)

I want to know if I see a M-7 HT for sale now for example how do I know if it's an older one or one of the newer with stainless steel frets?!


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 26, 2021)

I play music said:


> I want to know if I see a M-7 HT for sale now for example how do I know if it's an older one or one of the newer with stainless steel frets?!



A few ways:
SS frets don’t oxidise so you won’t see any rust or discolouration on them like nickel. They will all be a consistent colour. 
SS frets don’t wear down when using regular strings so there won’t be any fret wear. 
If they are new and shiny then press the lowest string down hard and bend it back and forth. You’ll see micro wear up close when you do that on nickel frets.


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## I play music (Jun 26, 2021)

Lorcan Ward said:


> A few ways:
> SS frets don’t oxidise so you won’t see any rust or discolouration on them like nickel. They will all be a consistent colour.
> SS frets don’t wear down when using regular strings so there won’t be any fret wear.
> If they are new and shiny then press the lowest string down hard and bend it back and forth. You’ll see micro wear up close when you do that on nickel frets.


I meant if I see one for sale online
would always have to ask but some people or stores don't know the difference or tell you bullshit from my experience
I already saw it when Ibanez changed their fretboard woods on M80M for example, people were selling the older version but copy pasted the description for the newer version from the website


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## Wucan (Jun 26, 2021)

I got an LTD Viper Evertune on order... I was excited about not just the bridge but the SS frets. This thread sure put a damper on my expectations 

I'm gonna say that I ordered the LTD after trying out another LTD with an Evertune and the fit/finish was flawless. Maybe not comparable to a MIJ in all facets but it shits on a lot of guitars that are more expensive. 

And the price hasn't "creeped" between MIK/MII and MIJ... a 1000 series will on average be half the price of an E-II. The absolute cheapest MIJ ESP is $1800 with a single pickup, while the Eclipse won't run any less than $2000.


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## Bordcla (Jun 26, 2021)

Wucan said:


> I got an LTD Viper Evertune on order... I was excited about not just the bridge but the SS frets. This thread sure put a damper on my expectations
> 
> I'm gonna say that I ordered the LTD after trying out another LTD with an Evertune and the fit/finish was flawless. Maybe not comparable to a MIJ in all facets but it shits on a lot of guitars that are more expensive.
> 
> And the price hasn't "creeped" between MIK/MII and MIJ... a 1000 series will on average be half the price of an E-II. The absolute cheapest MIJ ESP is $1800 with a single pickup, while the Eclipse won't run any less than $2000.



I haven't seen any other reviews of the new 1000s other than mine, which is great. So don't lose all hope!


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## nickgray (Jun 26, 2021)

Wucan said:


> This thread sure put a damper on my expectations



If it's my post - I probably just got unlucky  Both of them were from the same year and month, possibly the same so-so batch. They're good guitars, I like to play them, but they do need some extra investment, and some minor cosmetic stuff just isn't worth fixing (but as I've mentioned, I didn't get them at full price, it's possible that the shop was sketchy and sold a B-stock, but I doubt it, both had those US inspected stickers, it's just bad luck). Though then again, they're not putting Graphtech nuts (I'm guessing at best there will be some shaping, but I doubt even in the best case scenario you'll get a properly shaped nut), and the electronics are so-so. But this stuff is easy to fix.


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

One aspect I was curious about was about whether they would retroactively bring the stainless steel specs to older models (it was not entirely clear in that announcement), and apparently the answer is yes- they will be doing just that.

Product pages for some 2020 and earlier models have been updated:
https://www.espguitars.com/products/21854-m-1000ht
https://www.espguitars.com/products/21833-ec-1000
(just the 2 that I really liked the looks of)

According to a couple of dealers I spoke with, that's just not theory either, new 2021 stock coming in _should _have the stainless steel frets.
All in all:

stainless steel frets on models with older (IMO sometimes better) specs and finishes
price for 2020 models is unchanged / not increased to reflect the stainless steel frets as far as I can tell
if that's important to you, some of the 2021 stock is Made in Korea too, not MII





Do check with your dealer if you're interested, but all in all doesn't sound like a bad deal if all true.


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## Wucan (Jul 2, 2021)

mbardu said:


> One aspect I was curious about was about whether they would retroactively bring the stainless steel specs to older models (it was not entirely clear in that announcement), and apparently the answer is yes- they will be doing just that.
> 
> Product pages for some 2020 and earlier models have been updated:
> https://www.espguitars.com/products/21854-m-1000ht
> ...



I haven't quite figured out the pattern for MII vs MIK for their higher end range. Most 1000's, Black Metal and Evertune models are MII while the 1000's with more expensive finishes and the '87 line are MIK. Signatures seem split between the two. It's not very consistent - the See-Thru Purple MH and Viper are MII but the Eclipse is MIK - only spec difference being that the former have a Pegasus/Sentient set while the latter has a Jazz/Custom 5 set. Then you see that the Snakebyte and the Behemoth sigs are MII, while the Gary Holt and Javier Reyes ones are MIK.

I'd say ESP allocates models based on resources available in each factory and find the Indonesian stuff close enough to the Korean ones to not charge a different price.


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

Wucan said:


> I haven't quite figured out the pattern for MII vs MIK for their higher end range. Most 1000's, Black Metal and Evertune models are MII while the 1000's with more expensive finishes and the '87 line are MIK. Signatures seem split between the two. It's not very consistent - the See-Thru Purple MH and Viper are MII but the Eclipse is MIK - only spec difference being that the former have a Pegasus/Sentient set while the latter has a Jazz/Custom 5 set. Then you see that the Snakebyte and the Behemoth sigs are MII, while the Gary Holt and Javier Reyes ones are MIK.
> 
> I'd say ESP allocates models based on resources available in each factory and find the Indonesian stuff close enough to the Korean ones to not charge a different price.



It's probably useless to try and find a pattern.
The EC-1000 in poplar blue fade had batches in Indonesia, then Korea, then Indonesia, then apparently Korea again.
At this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if that was entirely up to the OEM shuffling production around based on their own logistics, and not any decision on ESP's end at all.


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## I play music (Jul 2, 2021)

Wucan said:


> I'd say ESP allocates models based on resources available in each factory and find the Indonesian stuff close enough to the Korean ones to not charge a different price.


At Thomann they've said that their Harley Bentons the same model different batch might come from a different factory, they just choose wherever they get a build slot (and probably cheap price). Maybe that's a common practice in the industry.


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

Aaaaah screw it, looks like I'm ordering one...


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## dirtool (Jul 6, 2021)

They also upgraded the old models to stainless steel frets, maybe it's time to get a h-1007 or m-1007ms.


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## mbardu (Jul 13, 2021)

Just got my 2021 Poplar Burl EC-1000, with stainless frets according to Sweetwater.
And drumroll...they do look and feel like stainless steel frets.
Guitar is pretty sweet too.
If it feels cute I might post pics later (as the yougins' say nowadays  )


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## CanserDYI (Jul 13, 2021)

If anyone wants to buy my 2020 Model of this guitar it's up for sale on reverb 

Just didn't scratch my itch unfortunately.


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## mbardu (Jul 13, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Just got my 2021 Poplar Burl EC-1000, with stainless frets according to Sweetwater.
> And drumroll...they do look and feel like stainless steel frets.
> Guitar is pretty sweet too.
> If it feels cute I might post pics later (as the yougins' say nowadays  )






Shiny frets:




Who doesn't like a "traditional" LP/Strat combo?


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## Hoss632 (Jul 14, 2021)

mbardu said:


> View attachment 95521
> 
> 
> Shiny frets:
> ...


To me this guitar is MUCH more worth the price than the e-ii version. I don't think the build quality between an e-ii and a top end LTD 1000's series is that much better that I'd spend another 1000.


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## Dooky (Jul 14, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> To me this guitar is MUCH more worth the price than the e-ii version. I don't think the build quality between an e-ii and a top end LTD 1000's series is that much better that I'd spend another 1000.


As someone who has played an ESP Snakebyte, a LTD Snakebyte, an ESP Hanneman and an LTD Hanneman. I can tell you there is practically zero differences between them - apart from some of the hardware.


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## Hollowway (Jul 14, 2021)

How many years until we hate the “clinical” sound of SS frets, and want to go back to nickel again. It’ll be like the EMG thing from 10 years ago. (Or anything on SSO after a bit, lol.)


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## setsuna7 (Jul 15, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Just got my 2021 Poplar Burl EC-1000, with stainless frets according to Sweetwater.
> And drumroll...they do look and feel like stainless steel frets.
> Guitar is pretty sweet too.
> If it feels cute I might post pics later (as the yougins' say nowadays  )


How the fuck do you verify stainless frets, does magnet works? I tried it on my NT7(refretted with Jescar)surely didn't stick to them frets. I honestly can't tell the difference between SS & a highly polished nickle frets.. I know I'm being OCD about it, I mean is there a scientific way to determine it?


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## mbardu (Jul 15, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> To me this guitar is MUCH more worth the price than the e-ii version. I don't think the build quality between an e-ii and a top end LTD 1000's series is that much better that I'd spend another 1000.



I actually got a recent E-II before this one from GC (not same finish - it was one of the sparkle ones) despite the regular frets, because I was able to get a good price on it at Guitarcenter (inspired by a poster in the ESP thread)... But I returned it fairly quickly as it was pretty meh. Not bad per say, but nothing particularly special either.
This one cost me literally _half the price_ of the E-ii on sale and even _regardless of price_ I'd keep this EC-1000.
Construction is indistinguishable between the 2. Hardware is a bit cooler on the E-II, but I prefer a three-piece neck and 24 frets - and obviously stainless steel frets is a big plus.
You can change pickups later obviously, but stock, the EC in passives sound better IMO. Ironically of all things, even the nut is decent, despite what this thread says.

One thing is _bad _on the LTD: one of the volume pots is basically useless. It's basically 0% or 100% 
But I can live with that and it's an easy fix.

It just largely prefer the LTD, and saving half the $$$ is a nice bonus too.


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## mbardu (Jul 15, 2021)

setsuna7 said:


> How the fuck do you verify stainless frets, does magnet works? I tried it on my NT7(refretted with Jescar)surely didn't stick to them frets. I honestly can't tell the difference between SS & a highly polished nickle frets.. I know I'm being OCD about it, I mean is there a scientific way to determine it?



For me they look and feel like stainless.
What I mean by look is shininess, and even more so, hue. Stainless to me has basically zero tint, while the usual nickel alloys have the slightest _slightest _extremely pale yellowish hue.
They feel stainless too because obviously they play with absolutely no resistance, but even passing a fingernail along the fret, you cannot feel even the slightest hint of grit. Just entirely smooth. Maybe you can get nickel to be _that smooth_ temporarily with patience, but I've at least never seen anything even close in the real world on nickel frets from the factory. Here I also specifically asked Sweetwater who said the same; and the guitar being a recent 2021 model, I'd say it's likely to match the updated specs on the ESP site.

I have not tested chemically though, so who knows


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## Kyle Jordan (Jul 15, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> How many years until we hate the “clinical” sound of SS frets, and want to go back to nickel again. It’ll be like the EMG thing from 10 years ago. (Or anything on SSO after a bit, lol.)



I literally cackled out loud at this. And I’m betting you are correct.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 15, 2021)

setsuna7 said:


> How the fuck do you verify stainless frets, does magnet works? I tried it on my NT7(refretted with Jescar)surely didn't stick to them frets. I honestly can't tell the difference between SS & a highly polished nickle frets.. I know I'm being OCD about it, I mean is there a scientific way to determine it?


lick them


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## Dooky (Jul 15, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> How many years until we hate the “clinical” sound of SS frets, and want to go back to nickel again. It’ll be like the EMG thing from 10 years ago. (Or anything on SSO after a bit, lol.)


Haha! Yeah, I love this bandwagon stuff. To be cool, you had to also despise any guitar made of basswood.


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## mbardu (Jul 15, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> How many years until we hate the “clinical” sound of SS frets, and want to go back to nickel again. It’ll be like the EMG thing from 10 years ago. (Or anything on SSO after a bit, lol.)



On the one hand, stainless steel frets is such a quality of life improvement that it should be one of those things that's just progress and that's it. So based on that yeah, hipsters will 100% be playing on vintage nickel frets in 10 years, you are very right


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 15, 2021)

Dooky said:


> Haha! Yeah, I love this bandwagon stuff. To be cool, you had to also despise any guitar made of basswood.


basswood is fine, as long as you don't have a trem in it. shit is too soft and the trem posts can become loose over time/ trem screws can wiggle out. Also it dings if you look at it wrong.


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## Hoss632 (Jul 15, 2021)

mbardu said:


> I actually got a recent E-II before this one from GC (not same finish - it was one of the sparkle ones) despite the regular frets, because I was able to get a good price on it at Guitarcenter (inspired by a poster in the ESP thread)... But I returned it fairly quickly as it was pretty meh. Not bad per say, but nothing particularly special either.
> This one cost me literally _half the price_ of the E-ii on sale and even _regardless of price_ I'd keep this EC-1000.
> Construction is indistinguishable between the 2. Hardware is a bit cooler on the E-II, but I prefer a three-piece neck and 24 frets - and obviously stainless steel frets is a big plus.
> You can change pickups later obviously, but stock, the EC in passives sound better IMO. Ironically of all things, even the nut is decent, despite what this thread says.
> ...


Tells me all I need to know. I'm wanting a higher end guitar and the LTD 1000 series stuff is on my list. There are a few more guitars that cost more but atm one of the 1000 series eclipse models is really speaking to me. Question. Have you played a schecter with the Thin C shape? How much thinner is the ESP extra thin U? I know the schecter ultra thin C is ridiculously thin. Just curiouis how the esp one is comparatively to schecter's stuff.


----------



## mbardu (Jul 15, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> Tells me all I need to know. I'm wanting a higher end guitar and the LTD 1000 series stuff is on my list. There are a few more guitars that cost more but atm one of the 1000 series eclipse models is really speaking to me. Question. Have you played a schecter with the Thin C shape? How much thinner is the ESP extra thin U? I know the schecter ultra thin C is ridiculously thin. Just curiouis how the esp one is comparatively to schecter's stuff.



The thinnest Shecter necks are really thin, but for some reason they don't cramp my hands, unlike the thinnest wizards.
The EC-1000, the neck to me just feels like a medium-thin C actually - not really getting what they mean by U. It's labelled as just "Thin U" in the specs (not Extra-thin), and it's not the thinnest around. Without getting into LP territory, it has at least some meat to it - which does match the ethos of the guitar. Shecter C1s/Banshee necks are a good bit thinner and feel less full than the EC.

Quality-wise, I owned a ton of Schecters over the last two/three years, and they have been my reference for best imports with stainless steel frets at ~1k$ (although now closer to 1.5k$ street). I would say the EC-1000 I got equals that pretty much, which is pretty high praise in my book considering. I don't think it's necessarily a fluke either, as the H-1001 I had just before was almost equally well finished - just didn't have stainless steel frets. Neck-wise, the H also had a "thin-U" neck...not sure if I have played an "Extra thin U" actually.
If it's a general trend, then I'd put recent LTD 1000 in the same category as high end Schecter stuff. Meaning guitars that can be absolutely great instruments and do pretty much anything. Plus they look great and are _loaded_ in terms of specs. Really- you don't lose anything significant in comparison to the high end much more expensive guitars. If all the "older-spec" LTD-1000 are getting stainless steel frets in practice, and stay at their initial launch price as well, they're quickly becoming bargains considering the rest of the market. The one I'd really want to try is the M-1000 HT.

What else are you considering otherwise?


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## Hoss632 (Jul 15, 2021)

mbardu said:


> The thinnest Shecter necks are really thin, but for some reason they don't cramp my hands, unlike the thinnest wizards.
> The EC-1000, the neck to me just feels like a medium-thin C actually - not really getting what they mean by U. It's labelled as just "Thin U" in the specs (not Extra-thin), and it's not the thinnest around. Without getting into LP territory, it has at least some meat to it - which does match the ethos of the guitar. Shecter C1s/Banshee necks are a good bit thinner and feel less full than the EC.
> 
> Quality-wise, I owned a ton of Schecters over the last two/three years, and they have been my reference for best imports with stainless steel frets at ~1k$ (although now closer to 1.5k$ street). I would say the EC-1000 I got equals that pretty much, which is pretty high praise in my book considering. I don't think it's necessarily a fluke either, as the H-1001 I had just before was almost equally well finished - just didn't have stainless steel frets. Neck-wise, the H also had a "thin-U" neck...not sure if I have played an "Extra thin U" actually.
> ...


The m-1000 HT is another on the list. Ibanez AZ242PBG Premium. PRS s2 custom 24. Chapman ML3 Bea Pro are the ones I'm high on right now. The only one I've been able to find in person locally is the PRS outside of the ec series stuff. Most of the other's I would be buying blind in terms of how I think they feel in hand.


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## I play music (Jul 15, 2021)

Hollowway said:


> How many years until we hate the “clinical” sound of SS frets, and want to go back to nickel again. It’ll be like the EMG thing from 10 years ago. (Or anything on SSO after a bit, lol.)


Some have already tried that argumentation. And with some I mean lazy guitar techs not willing to work with SS frets and other people parroting them. Like this PRS guy for example.


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## mbardu (Jul 15, 2021)

Hoss632 said:


> The m-1000 HT is another on the list. Ibanez AZ242PBG Premium. PRS s2 custom 24. Chapman ML3 Bea Pro are the ones I'm high on right now. The only one I've been able to find in person locally is the PRS outside of the ec series stuff. Most of the other's I would be buying blind in terms of how I think they feel in hand.



Well in that case, it's really more a matter of first figuring out what type of guitar you want, they're so different 

All of those can be great, although Chapman and Ibanez AZ at least I would not buy sight unseen/or at least without a return policy (if buying online) because there may be some variance (great ones are great though). The AZ neck profile is quite different from what you would expect from an Ibanez. Pretty round with some shoulders, and quite a bit thicker than a wizard. Maybe not a dealbreaker, but good to know.

The Custom 24 S2s are usually built great. Their hardware is not the best though and you can tell it's part of the cost cutting (bridge especially); plus since it's the topic of this thread, they do not have stainless steel frets.


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## Hoss632 (Jul 18, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Well in that case, it's really more a matter of first figuring out what type of guitar you want, they're so different
> 
> All of those can be great, although Chapman and Ibanez AZ at least I would not buy sight unseen/or at least without a return policy (if buying online) because there may be some variance (great ones are great though). The AZ neck profile is quite different from what you would expect from an Ibanez. Pretty round with some shoulders, and quite a bit thicker than a wizard. Maybe not a dealbreaker, but good to know.
> 
> The Custom 24 S2s are usually built great. Their hardware is not the best though and you can tell it's part of the cost cutting (bridge especially); plus since it's the topic of this thread, they do not have stainless steel frets.


The list itself is ever changing. I myself have a schecter currently. Which for the money has been a very well built guitar. I can always look at one of the blackjack series stuff as well which has stainless frets etc. And I know from past experiences that schecter stuff is usually really well put together.


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## CanserDYI (Aug 8, 2021)

Okay I have to show this to someone, this is a "acoustic" plucking of my Low A strings, LTD MH1007 with an Evertune, next is my new kiesel with a hipshot bridge. Same string guage, same scale, same tuning, same age of the strings. Listen to how much high end and sustain is just...deadened. is this exclusive to mine? Or does anyone else have similar experiences?
https://imgur.com/a/hZuU4gL


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 8, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Okay I have to show this to someone, this is a "acoustic" plucking of my Low A strings, LTD MH1007 with an Evertune, next is my new kiesel with a hipshot bridge. Same string guage, same scale, same tuning, same age of the strings. Listen to how much high end and sustain is just...deadened. is this exclusive to mine? Or does anyone else have similar experiences?
> https://imgur.com/a/hZuU4gL


It's probably the evertune. They remove a significant chunk of wood from the guitars to install them and I've heard complaints about them causing weird resonance/frequency spikes.


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## Marked Man (Aug 8, 2021)

I've had SS refrets on 4 different guitars in the last 3 years. And all future refrets will be SS.

The feel is quite different.
There is a very subtle (GOOD) sound difference
But most importantly, they will almost certainly outlive you and not degrade in performance in a relatively short time as nickel can if you play a lot.
So they win hands down for me.

A lot of my favorite guitars were built in the early '90s and have been played a LOT by someone (possibly me) and the frets are tired by now. But with SS, they are reborn.......Immortal.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Aug 8, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Okay I have to show this to someone, this is a "acoustic" plucking of my Low A strings, LTD MH1007 with an Evertune, next is my new kiesel with a hipshot bridge. Same string guage, same scale, same tuning, same age of the strings. Listen to how much high end and sustain is just...deadened. is this exclusive to mine? Or does anyone else have similar experiences?
> https://imgur.com/a/hZuU4gL


Yikes, big difference in tone and sustain especially. I’ve heard that ET can do unfavorable things to the overall sound.


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## Marked Man (Aug 8, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Yikes, big difference in tone and sustain especially. I’ve heard that ET can do unfavorable things to the overall sound.



I guess this doesn't matter as much to people who think amp modelers are good enough replacements for real tube amps. Convenience over toan. 

I haven't played an Evertune guitar yet, but I wouldn't go for it if it sucks the soul out of a good guitar. Just choose your strings wisely, stretch 'em out in the beginning, and play with a very light touch on the fretting hand.


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## I play music (Aug 8, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Okay I have to show this to someone, this is a "acoustic" plucking of my Low A strings, LTD MH1007 with an Evertune, next is my new kiesel with a hipshot bridge. Same string guage, same scale, same tuning, same age of the strings. Listen to how much high end and sustain is just...deadened. is this exclusive to mine? Or does anyone else have similar experiences?
> https://imgur.com/a/hZuU4gL


The Evertune guitars I've tried were all dead sounding, so every time I see people praising them I wonder if they don't have ears or what's up
Also there's still no bass Evertune, guess why (probably because there it's even more clear what it does to the sound)


----------



## Velokki (Aug 11, 2021)

I play music said:


> The Evertune guitars I've tried were all dead sounding, so every time I see people praising them I wonder if they don't have ears or what's up
> Also there's still no bass Evertune, guess why (probably because there it's even more clear what it does to the sound)



Yeah, the Evertune does "drain" the tone and sustain. But I simply have not cared. I use my Evertune guitars for recording, and have never faced a situation where they didn't sound good or lacked sustain. I would even go as far to say that my MH-1000ET (with Fluence KSE set) sounds freakin' amazing! 
It's funny - I did try to A/B with a couple of standard guitars (namely an ESP Horizon and PRS Custom 24) and recorded the same riff. Sure, tone was a bit different between all of them, but the Evertune certainly didn't lack anything. Very articulate and good tone.

That being said, I do love resonant guitars (I even did this resonance test, where you can also hear my ESP MH-1000ET) but in real-life use scenarios (especially recording) there is no difference.


----------



## LCW (Aug 15, 2021)

Stainless or not, loving my new LTD EC-1000. The gold andromeda paint is insane!


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## mbardu (Aug 15, 2021)

LCW said:


> Stainless or not, loving my new LTD EC-1000. The gold andromeda paint is insane!
> 
> View attachment 96747



Yeah that finish is awesome.
I was on the fence with this one too, but got the Burl instead because of passive pickups and an amazing price.
You can't go wrong either way though.


----------



## Musiscience (Aug 15, 2021)

LCW said:


> Stainless or not, loving my new LTD EC-1000. The gold andromeda paint is insane!
> 
> View attachment 96747



How are these newer 1000 series LTD in the fit and finish department? Can’t find any locally to check out.


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## mbardu (Aug 15, 2021)

Musiscience said:


> How are these newer 1000 series LTD in the fit and finish department? Can’t find any locally to check out.



I can literally not find anything wrong with mine, I'm impressed. 
Everything is smooth and as it should be. If you have specific questions or want closeup picture of anything, let me know.


----------



## mlp187 (Aug 15, 2021)

Musiscience said:


> How are these newer 1000 series LTD in the fit and finish department? Can’t find any locally to check out.


These are on-par w/e-ii and the other esp lines. I have first hand experience. At this point I’m only buying ESP and E-II guitars because I’m dumb as shit.
No offense to anyone. This is just my perspective.


----------



## mbardu (Aug 15, 2021)

mlp187 said:


> These are on-par w/e-ii and the other esp lines. I have first hand experience. At this point I’m only buying ESP and E-II guitars because I’m dumb as shit.
> No offense to anyone. This is just my perspective.



wat


----------



## mlp187 (Aug 15, 2021)

mbardu said:


> wat


What I’m saying is:
In my experience, LTD 1000 series are great.
ESP USA are great.
ESP original are great.
E-II are great.
LTD 1000 series generally have a high build quality and are fairly easily obtainable. But, they say LTD on the headstock. And that bothers me as much as I tell myself it shouldn’t.


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## LCW (Aug 15, 2021)

Musiscience said:


> How are these newer 1000 series LTD in the fit and finish department? Can’t find any locally to check out.



I was very impressed to be honest. Just the nut sucks. Otherwise it puts other brands at this price point (1150 for this one, made in Korea) I shame.


----------



## LCW (Aug 15, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Yeah that finish is awesome.
> I was on the fence with this one too, but got the Burl instead because of passive pickups and an amazing price.
> You can't go wrong either way though.



I was a Fishman hater. Didn’t like the set in a Jackson Soloist (ash body maple thru neck & Floyd). But in this thing they rip. Could be the mahogany body and neck… or thr fixed bridge… dunno but sounds amazing.


----------



## mbardu (Aug 18, 2021)

mbardu said:


> The thinnest Shecter necks are really thin, but for some reason they don't cramp my hands, unlike the thinnest wizards.
> The EC-1000, the neck to me just feels like a medium-thin C actually - not really getting what they mean by U. It's labelled as just "Thin U" in the specs (not Extra-thin), and it's not the thinnest around. Without getting into LP territory, it has at least some meat to it - which does match the ethos of the guitar. Shecter C1s/Banshee necks are a good bit thinner and feel less full than the EC.
> 
> Quality-wise, I owned a ton of Schecters over the last two/three years, and they have been my reference for best imports with stainless steel frets at ~1k$ (although now closer to 1.5k$ street). I would say the EC-1000 I got equals that pretty much, which is pretty high praise in my book considering. I don't think it's necessarily a fluke either, as the H-1001 I had just before was almost equally well finished - just didn't have stainless steel frets. Neck-wise, the H also had a "thin-U" neck...not sure if I have played an "Extra thin U" actually.
> ...



Well that didn't last long! The "old" 1000 series are starting to increase in price to match their "newer" counterparts.
Depending on retailer it looks like 2021 ones are starting to be 50 to 100$ more expensive than they used to be.
Someone realized it was just too good a value I guess


----------



## mbardu (Aug 18, 2021)

LCW said:


> I was a Fishman hater. Didn’t like the set in a Jackson Soloist (ash body maple thru neck & Floyd). But in this thing they rip. Could be the mahogany body and neck… or thr fixed bridge… dunno but sounds amazing.



Nothing against Fishmans!
Just preferred those passive pickups for this particular guitar.
The one thing I do wonder if I wouldn't have liked better on yours is the unbound fretboard...


----------



## Dumple Stilzkin (Aug 18, 2021)

Musiscience said:


> How are these newer 1000 series LTD in the fit and finish department? Can’t find any locally to check out.


I have a newer 2020 MH1007QM, I had an arrow 1000 briefly, also a m1 87 (equivalence of 1000 series). So I can say I think they have some of the best fit and finish in their price range. Binding was a bit off (nothing major or really obvious) on my mh1007, but the other two were spot on as far as binding and finish work. Frets we’re good on all of them, and all three sounded great. I’m impressed and will certainly buy more in the future.
I’ve had a USA Rhoads, a Kelly professional (Japanese made, pearl sharks on ebony), four Carvin’s, prestige Ibanez (2), and USA PRS ce24. So I have had some experience with nice gear over the years. I play my LTD the most out of all my guitars, is it as nice as my PRS? No. Is it close enough that I don’t really notice it unless I’m being super nit picky? Yes. 
They don’t feel like cheaper guitars at all, very solid. I have plans to buy two more 1000 series guitars eventually.


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## Adieu (Aug 18, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> I’ve had a USA Rhoads, a Kelly professional (Japanese made, pearl sharks on ebony)



Pretty sure the MIJ Jacksons had "ebonized rosewood" (fauxbony not ebony)


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Aug 18, 2021)

Adieu said:


> Pretty sure the MIJ Jacksons had "ebonized rosewood" (fauxbony not ebony)


That may be true for certain years, but they ran a series starting in 1990 that had the same specifications as the USA models. Bound ebony board, neck thru, pearl sharks, Schaller floyd. Here’s a bad picture of the one I had.





These are some of my favorite guitars I’ve played. They sell for close to what USA models go for.


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## Adieu (Aug 18, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> That may be true for certain years, but they ran a series starting in 1990 that had the same specifications as the USA models. Bound ebony board, neck thru, pearl sharks, Schaller floyd. Here’s a bad picture of the one I had.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's no Kelly


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Aug 18, 2021)

Adieu said:


> That's no Kelly


I neglected to mentioned I’ve had two, a Rhoads and a Kelly.


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## LCW (Aug 20, 2021)

Anyone find it strange that they would now put stainless frets on LTD 1000’s but not on E-II’s?

Is it possible the “stainless” frets on the LTD are poorer quality and hardness than the non-stainless frets on E-IIs?

ESP isn’t exactly giving details on the grade of its fret alloys.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 20, 2021)

LCW said:


> Anyone find it strange that they would now put stainless frets on LTD 1000’s but not on E-II’s?
> 
> Is it possible the “stainless” frets on the LTD are poorer quality and hardness than the non-stainless frets on E-IIs?



The cheapest stainless steel is still stainless steel, which will always be harder than nickel silver, which is mostly copper.


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## I play music (Aug 20, 2021)

LCW said:


> Anyone find it strange that they would now put stainless frets on LTD 1000’s but not on E-II’s?
> 
> Is it possible the “stainless” frets on the LTD are poorer quality and hardness than the non-stainless frets on E-IIs?
> 
> ESP isn’t exactly giving details on the grade of its fret alloys.


It's not strange, it's just different production facilities and the cheaper one can offer that feature earlier. They will probably come on E-IIs as well at some point but it may take more time.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 20, 2021)

I play music said:


> It's not strange, it's just different production facilities and the cheaper one can offer that feature earlier. They will probably come on E-IIs as well at some point but it may take more time.



It's most likely related to sales steering and line differentiation. 

Globally, the E-II range is meant to be something like entry-level non-Indo/SK, so they're going to keep the specs fairly pedestrian so as not to compete with the more expensive lines, like the ESP USA stuff.


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## mbardu (Sep 2, 2021)

mbardu said:


> It's probably useless to try and find a pattern.
> The EC-1000 in poplar blue fade had batches in Indonesia, then Korea, then Indonesia, then apparently Korea again.
> At this point, I wouldn't even be surprised if that was entirely up to the OEM shuffling production around based on their own logistics, and not any decision on ESP's end at all.



I checked randomly and the one poplar EC-1000 they have back in stock now on Sweetwater is now Indonesia again, whereas the serial number indicates same month of production as my Korean one. Just totally random


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## Marked Man (Sep 5, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's most likely related to sales steering and line differentiation.
> 
> Globally, the E-II range is meant to be something like entry-level non-Indo/SK, so they're going to keep the specs fairly pedestrian so as not to compete with the more expensive lines, like the ESP USA stuff.



The E-IIs are already a major value threat to the USAs. Giving them SS frets but not the USAs would be insane. More likely that the opposite would happen. I have an ESP Std Eclipse II and Viper from around 2012ish, and a brand new E-II Horizon III, and there is basically nothing that can criticized on them. I have yet to play an ESP USA, but they would have to be something very special to command twice the price of E-II. I do think E-IIs are clearly better than LTD 1000s, and worth the extra. Although me being me, I buy them slightly used for about the price of a new 1000. 

I'm totally onboard with SS.


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## mbardu (Sep 5, 2021)

Marked Man said:


> The E-IIs are already a major value threat to the USAs. Giving them SS frets but not the USAs would be insane. More likely that the opposite would happen. I have an ESP Std Eclipse II and Viper from around 2012ish, and a brand new E-II Horizon III, and there is basically nothing that can criticized on them. I have yet to play an ESP USA, but they would have to be something very special to command twice the price of E-II. I do think E-IIs are clearly better than LTD 1000s, and worth the extra. Although me being me, I buy them slightly used for about the price of a new 1000.
> 
> I'm totally onboard with SS.



Most recent USAs already have stainless steel frets.
Re: E-ii, my experience over the last 5/6 guitars I tried is that they don't really bring you much over those very recent ltd 1000s. They feel and play and sound about the same (sometimes the ltd being _better_) , and individual variation between guitars is almost a bigger factor than e-ii vs ltd. The e-ii don't add premium/expensive stuff either. For instance, even on 2.5k$ guitars, they are still using veneers rather than tops for figured woods. No objective plus unless you really really value a slightly better stock nut and a case, and are willing to give up on stainless steel frets for that.
ESP usa on the other hand is more boutique, small volumes, you can get a bit of semi custom, and it's altogether a different range as "mass" produced e-ii/ltd.

But the fact that despite the wonky name, some people do put enough value in the mij sticker to spend twice the ltd 1000 price on an e-ii, and see that as some sort of value sweet spot proves that the esp product managers are clearly doing a good job.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Sep 5, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Most recent USAs already have stainless steel frets.
> Re: E-ii, my experience over the last 5/6 guitars I tried is that they don't really bring you much over those very recent ltd 1000s. They feel and play and sound about the same (sometimes the ltd being _better_) , and individual variation between guitars is almost a bigger factor than e-ii vs ltd. The e-ii don't add premium/expensive stuff either. For instance, even on 2.5k$ guitars, they are still using veneers rather than tops for figured woods. No objective plus unless you really really value a slightly better stock nut and a case, and are willing to give up on stainless steel frets for that.
> ESP usa on the other hand is more boutique, small volumes, you can get a bit of semi custom, and it's altogether a different range as "mass" produced e-ii/ltd.
> 
> But the fact that despite the wonky name, some people do put enough value in the mij sticker to spend twice the ltd 1000 price on an e-ii, and see that as some sort of value sweet spot proves that the esp product managers are clearly doing a good job.



A lot of people value it being done by the actual ESP shops in Japan. EIIs are made there right?

I would have just kept them as ESP standard series. Was way easier to understand.


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## mbardu (Sep 5, 2021)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> A lot of people value it being done by the actual ESP shops in Japan. EIIs are made there right?
> 
> I would have just kept them as ESP standard series. Was way easier to understand.



The E-IIs are made in an ESP factory in Japan yes, vs LTD made overseas by OEM. So yeah - as long as some people value the origin of their mass produced guitar over other objective factors, then E-iis will sell, and that's why I said the ESP product managers did a good job.

Same thing for renaming it. This way they can charge _more _for people who want the actual ESP logo on an actual high-tier-to-Custom-shop Japanese guitar, without continuing to dilute their ESP brand with the mass (and _relatively _cheaper) produced stuff. Also a smart move. People who want a high-tier and brand name will buy ESP, while people who want to have MIJ as their main criteria over all else buy E-ii.


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## Marked Man (Sep 6, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Most recent USAs already have stainless steel frets.
> Re: E-ii, my experience over the last 5/6 guitars I tried is that they don't really bring you much over those very recent ltd 1000s. They feel and play and sound about the same (sometimes the ltd being _better_) , and individual variation between guitars is almost a bigger factor than e-ii vs ltd. The e-ii don't add premium/expensive stuff either. For instance, even on 2.5k$ guitars, they are still using veneers rather than tops for figured woods. No objective plus unless you really really value a slightly better stock nut and a case, and are willing to give up on stainless steel frets for that.
> ESP usa on the other hand is more boutique, small volumes, you can get a bit of semi custom, and it's altogether a different range as "mass" produced e-ii/ltd.
> 
> But the fact that despite the wonky name, some people do put enough value in the mij sticker to spend twice the ltd 1000 price on an e-ii, and see that as some sort of value sweet spot proves that the esp product managers are clearly doing a good job.



Well some LTDs suffer from a very unfortunate (and terminal) case of Abaloneitis, which cannot be cured. That has kept me away from certain MIKs I would otherwise be all over. 

I wouldn't hesitate to get any 1000 that didn't have this disease, as long as the price is less than a used E-II. I've been stalking some 1000 Vipers lately as I'd like to have one with passives, and the SS frets are major icing on the cake. I dig the M1000 Koa also, although I wish it didn't have a gloss finish (reminds me of old fashioned dining room furniture), only thing keeping me away....


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## Lozek (Sep 6, 2021)

Marked Man said:


> Well some LTDs suffer from a very unfortunate (and terminal) case of Abaloneitis, which cannot be cured. That has kept me away from certain MIKs I would otherwise be all over.



Exactly this. The 1000 series Evertune Horizon's are just so damn perfect in every regard, even moreso now they will be SS, if they didn't have that hideous double binding shit on them.


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