# NGD Headless from China



## zarg (Feb 4, 2019)

I was very interested in a headless guitar for a long time and I wanted to try one for a while before spending the 2 grand on a strandy. I was very hesitant on buying a chinese headless before because of their awful bridge design that you can only tune with a wrench.
Then I found out that they have a new bridge design and some nice looking woods so I had to jump on it. There was a few different colors and woods but I took the natural ash bodied one.

Specs:
- 2 piece ash body
- 2 active humbuckers
- volume, tone and 3 way toggle
- flame maple neck (bolt on, a healthy "C" shape)
- flame maple fretboard
- glow in the dark front and side dots

the good:
- really nicely crafted (CNC did a good good there) and everything fits together good
- great setup out the box (intonation, string height, relief all great)
- decent fretwork (very level, a bit sharp on the edges)
- very resonant
- thin satin finish that feels nice to the touch
- came with a gigbag
- very functional hardware
- has bridge grounding (see below why its important)
- great tuning stability

the bad:
- terribly noisy electronics
- nickel frets
- electronics cavity is pretty tight and fits only small pots
- kind of heavy for what it is (non chambered) (weighs 3,1 kg)
- no endureneck

The guitar is really nice for what I paid for it and I honestly love it. the headless hardware works great and its fun to play. The zero fret will likely wear out soon and I will replace it with a stainless steel one (hope that goes well). It wasn't holding tuning at first, but after I put on new strings it worked wonderfully. I was worried that they would mess up the multiscale aspect of the guitar but the intonation is spot on and chords sound like they should.
It plays great out of the box but its terrible plugged in. I've never experienced this kind of microphonic behaviour on any pickups (if you run you hand across the body gently you can hear it through the amp). I already swapped in a DiMarzio in the bridge position to test it and it sounds glorious in this guitar. I will definitely convert it to passive. I already ordered some 500k pots (but they have to be the small kind) and got nervous when I remembered that most actives don't need a bridge ground but passives do. after some digging around in the cavities I found a bridge ground - yay!

buying experience:
On top of the price paid I calculated about 25% for VAT and Import Tax which was about what I had to pay for it. It took about 20 days to get from China to Germany and 2 days once it was through customs. There was no trouble with customs whatsoever, they asked me about the woods but since there's only ash and maple it wasn't a concern.

If I continue to like this thing as much as I do now, I will buy myself a strandberg this year.

If you have any questions, let me know!

the pictures:










cheers!


----------



## quaileqqs (Feb 4, 2019)

Cool! Where did you purchase this? Links please?


----------



## zarg (Feb 4, 2019)

ordered it on reverb:
https://reverb.com/shop/xus-shop-1
my particular model is:
https://reverb.com/item/17840690-nk...rets-headless-guitar-new-bridge-free-shipping

Just be careful, they have some models with the old bridge too. I'm sure you can get the same guitar even cheaper on some more shady sites but I wanted the safety of reverb and paypal when ordering straight from china.

Edit: Just saw a review where someone asked for passives and they swapped them for him ... welp, I should've done that *facepalm*


----------



## gunch (Feb 4, 2019)

Nice dude, I might get their newer skerveten copy with the updated hardware


----------



## Sogradde (Feb 4, 2019)

zarg said:


> On top of the price paid I calculated about 25% for VAT and Import Tax


Ich weine mit dir! 
Aber echt hübsch die Klampfe. Ich hab' was übrig für solche Arbeitstiere.


----------



## Mathemagician (Feb 4, 2019)

The factory probably got a lot better at them once copying became easier with Strandberg moved production of some models to China.


----------



## lewis (Feb 4, 2019)

this gon be good

(better be after my shitstorm)


----------



## Aliascent (Feb 4, 2019)

Looks good and it sounds like a good guitar / mod plateform for the money, but I'm curious about the 0.5" fan. Is it even noticeable when playing (string tension-wise)? I could understand 24.75 to 25.5, but 25 to 25.5 ? Weird.


----------



## DudeManBrother (Feb 4, 2019)

The flame on that neck is outstanding. I bet a few coats of oil would make it really pop. Looks like a cool guitar. @Aliascent if it’s like the Strandberg fan, where the first fret is parallel, then it’s actually more extreme than even my 25.5-27 fanned guitars. I play in the center of the neck most of the time; so having a parallel fret around the 8th makes a 1.5” fan very comfortable. With my 6 string Strandberg: that area of the neck is getting far more fanned. It’s not bad, but if it was more than just the .5”, it might be very difficult to play.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Feb 4, 2019)

I don't know why I thought they might have an actual SkerveTEN copy with 10 strings, lol.


----------



## Snarpaasi (Feb 4, 2019)

That looks really nice! Considering all the goods that sounds like a steal.


----------



## mogar (Feb 4, 2019)

One of those, a set of pickups/electronics, and a good fret dress/level and you got one hell of a player for way under a grand. Now i'm interested. Especially in this one. Just look at that neck!! sexy...

https://reverb.com/item/18677691-nk...blue-black-color-eye-poplar-top-free-shipping


----------



## movingpictures (Feb 4, 2019)

mogar said:


> One of those, a set of pickups/electronics, and a good fret dress/level and you got one hell of a player for way under a grand. Now i'm interested. Especially in this one. Just look at that neck!! sexy...
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/18677691-nk...blue-black-color-eye-poplar-top-free-shipping


It has those weird bolts on each saddle though...other models have a more stealth looking bridge


----------



## zarg (Feb 4, 2019)

movingpictures said:


> It has those weird bolts on each saddle though...other models have a more stealth looking bridge



the one I ordered has those in the pictures too, but I guess I got an updated version which is even better


----------



## I play music (Feb 4, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> I don't know why I thought they might have an actual SkerveTEN copy with 10 strings, lol.


Me too


----------



## I play music (Feb 4, 2019)

zarg said:


> the one I ordered has those in the pictures too, but I guess I got an updated version which is even better


Some have EMG pickups in the pictures but I'm assuming it's not really EMG pickups, or yes?


----------



## Frostbite (Feb 4, 2019)

Shit. The bridge was the main reason I haven't bought one of these. I really didn't need another "cheap guitar I don't need but can somehow justify in my head"


----------



## Aliascent (Feb 4, 2019)

I play music said:


> Some have EMG pickups in the pictures but I'm assuming it's not really EMG pickups, or yes?


It's unlikely that they are real EMGs, but it could be one of those $30-40 "EMG" set from aliexpress...which are pretty close.


----------



## sezna (Feb 4, 2019)

Lol, I’m in the same city as this company for chinese new year. Gonna see if I can stop by for the lols.


----------



## Mathemagician (Feb 4, 2019)

People will buy a sketchy no-name, NON-LICENSED copy of a guitar made of balsa wood in China for $500+, but when a manufacturer moves production to China/Indonesia for cheaper labor they cry bloody murder.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2019)

y


Mathemagician said:


> People will buy a sketchy no-name, NON-LICENSED copy of a guitar made of balsa wood in China for $500+, but when a manufacturer moves production to China/Indonesia for cheaper labor they cry bloody murder.


yeah, because charging 1.5k- 2k for an chinese/indo guitar is fucking ridiculous.


----------



## sezna (Feb 4, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> People will buy a sketchy no-name, NON-LICENSED copy of a guitar made of balsa wood in China for $500+, but when a manufacturer moves production to China/Indonesia for cheaper labor they cry bloody murder.


Different people are usually doing the complaining. Also, when production is moved, the savings are rarely passed on to the customer. Lastly, it is not often balsa wood. But I understand your sentiment, some people do have this dissonance in opinion.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 4, 2019)

lewis said:


> this gon be good
> 
> (better be after my shitstorm)



 Yes, you did catch Hell for that! 

But yeah, I am generally against these Chinese counterfeit/copying/etc. sorts of things. I know people will have a bunch of different reasons that it's ok for them to buy one, and people have reasons for buying copies of other Chinese knockoffs. But, it just doesn't help anyone, other than very short term. My main issue is that, as artists, it's weird for us to be cool with people stealing others's art, just not our own. Since Ola Strandberg is still making guitars, and is very supportive of our community, it just feels wrong to me to be buying a design stolen from him. Yes, strats and LPs have been stolen a million times, but that doesn't make this right, either. And, the rationale for buying one: "I want to see if it's good before I buy a real one," doesn't make sense, because these won't play, feel, or look like the real thing. And the, "Hey guys, I'll take one for the team and see how it is!" rationale doesn't fly with me either, because the people doing that aren't likely to try that with other things, just "for the team." 

Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox, because I know I'm not convincing anyone to come over to my side, in terms of the view of buying stolen IP.


----------



## lewis (Feb 5, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Yes, you did catch Hell for that!
> 
> But yeah, I am generally against these Chinese counterfeit/copying/etc. sorts of things. I know people will have a bunch of different reasons that it's ok for them to buy one, and people have reasons for buying copies of other Chinese knockoffs. But, it just doesn't help anyone, other than very short term. My main issue is that, as artists, it's weird for us to be cool with people stealing others's art, just not our own. Since Ola Strandberg is still making guitars, and is very supportive of our community, it just feels wrong to me to be buying a design stolen from him. Yes, strats and LPs have been stolen a million times, but that doesn't make this right, either. And, the rationale for buying one: "I want to see if it's good before I buy a real one," doesn't make sense, because these won't play, feel, or look like the real thing. And the, "Hey guys, I'll take one for the team and see how it is!" rationale doesn't fly with me either, because the people doing that aren't likely to try that with other things, just "for the team."
> 
> Anyway, I'll get off my soapbox, because I know I'm not convincing anyone to come over to my side, in terms of the view of buying stolen IP.


funnily enough you have me haha.

Im going to get the guitar back together and sell it on i think.
Would rather just get a stranderg classic or something now if i can find the awesome blue one with white pickguard


----------



## Sogradde (Feb 5, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> [...]


What if someone just likes the aesthetics but is not willing to spend thousands of $$$ on that? Personally I really like the Blackmachine looks but I wouldn't want to buy a B6, let alone one of those ridiculously priced B2s for that. As long as you don't go around and try to pass it off as a real one, I think it's fine to get a knock-off. I mean, where do you draw the line? Are these chinese fakes bad but Ormsby's Hypemachine for example is A-ok? I find it hard to justify that personally.

The entire thing makes me wonder though. The quality of the chinese guitars doesn't seem to be too bad. Probably not much worse than your average indo low budget Ibby/Ltd/Jackson/you name it. Will they eventually drive those beginner guitars out of the market? Or have they existed all the time and I just didn't notice because in the past there were less shops present on Reverb/eBay/whatever ?


----------



## xzacx (Feb 5, 2019)

Sogradde said:


> What if someone just likes the aesthetics but is not willing to spend thousands of $$$ on that? Personally I really like the Blackmachine looks but I wouldn't want to buy a B6, let alone one of those ridiculously priced B2s for that. As long as you don't go around and try to pass it off as a real one, I think it's fine to get a knock-off. I mean, where do you draw the line? Are these chinese fakes bad but Ormsby's Hypemachine for example is A-ok? I find it hard to justify that personally.



If someone just liked the looks but isn't willing to spend the money, then maybe they just don't get it? Is that really a wild concept? I really like the look of the Wraith, but if I can't afford one, I can't afford one. I sure don't want a knock-off. Who says Ormsby is OK? I wouldn't want _any _Ormsby based on its ripping off of Blackmachine.


----------



## Tisca (Feb 5, 2019)

You can buy a fret-end file for 20€ or have it filed for like 30€. the file is a good investment over time and it's easy to do yourself.


----------



## I play music (Feb 5, 2019)

Aliascent said:


> It's unlikely that they are real EMGs, but it could be one of those $30-40 "EMG" set from aliexpress...which are pretty close.


So even if they are fake they are usable active pickups?


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 5, 2019)

lewis said:


> funnily enough you have me haha.
> 
> Im going to get the guitar back together and sell it on i think.
> Would rather just get a stranderg classic or something now if i can find the awesome blue one with white pickguard



Just set your Reverb feed to "strandberg" and lie in wait. 98% of the stuff listed on Reverb is drastically overpriced, but every once in a while someone throws a deal up on there. I know what you mean, though - I want one of those blue ones with the white pickguard as well!


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 5, 2019)

Sogradde said:


> What if someone just likes the aesthetics but is not willing to spend thousands of $$$ on that? Personally I really like the Blackmachine looks but I wouldn't want to buy a B6, let alone one of those ridiculously priced B2s for that. As long as you don't go around and try to pass it off as a real one, I think it's fine to get a knock-off. I mean, where do you draw the line? Are these chinese fakes bad but Ormsby's Hypemachine for example is A-ok? I find it hard to justify that personally.
> 
> The entire thing makes me wonder though. The quality of the chinese guitars doesn't seem to be too bad. Probably not much worse than your average indo low budget Ibby/Ltd/Jackson/you name it. Will they eventually drive those beginner guitars out of the market? Or have they existed all the time and I just didn't notice because in the past there were less shops present on Reverb/eBay/whatever ?



Yeah, just playing devil's advocate, let's say you and your band work on a song for a few months, then record it, and incur a few thousand dollars worth of debt - from studio time and hours working on it without pay. Then you post it on your website and itunes to sell it for $1.00. Some dude down the street hears it, and copies it nearly exactly, and promotes it as a free song, and releases it. Is that ok? I'm just putting it into the terms we usually use here. Ola Strandberg is charging what he's charging because he can't just take an existing design and start cranking out low priced guitars. He has to advertise, do R&D, have good customer support, make sure QC is really high, etc. He's hardly a baller, so maybe there is some room for him too make the price lower, but it's not drastically high. The copiers have none of that overhead. If we all just bought knockoffs, eventually people are going to stop doing good R&D to get good quality stuff. Anyway, like I say, I'm not really having a histrionic conniption about it like I used to, but it's just how I, personally, feel. And it only seems to be about certain things. I buy Oreos, but people tell me their Hydrox knockoffs. But I like the Oreos better.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Just set your Reverb feed to "strandberg" and lie in wait. 98% of the stuff listed on Reverb is drastically overpriced, but every once in a while someone throws a deal up on there. I know what you mean, though - I want one of those blue ones with the white pickguard as well!


People are insane trying to get damn near new prices for a used guitar. 
even though I do the exact same thing


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 5, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> People are insane trying to get damn near new prices for a used guitar.
> even though I do the exact same thing



Haha, true! I guess it doesn’t hurt to ask. There are a couple I’ve seen that are priced HIGHER than a new one. I guess they’re just banking on someone not doing their research or something. It’s better than saying, “extremely rare! schecter omen for sale!”


----------



## Jason B (Feb 6, 2019)

This thread has inspired me to buy counterfeit Air Jordans to see if I find them comfortable enough to buy the real thing.


----------



## Sogradde (Feb 6, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, just playing devil's advocate, let's say you and your band work on a song for a few months, then record it, and incur a few thousand dollars worth of debt - from studio time and hours working on it without pay. Then you post it on your website and itunes to sell it for $1.00. Some dude down the street hears it, and copies it nearly exactly, and promotes it as a free song, and releases it. Is that ok? I'm just putting it into the terms we usually use here. Ola Strandberg is charging what he's charging because he can't just take an existing design and start cranking out low priced guitars. He has to advertise, do R&D, have good customer support, make sure QC is really high, etc. He's hardly a baller, so maybe there is some room for him too make the price lower, but it's not drastically high. The copiers have none of that overhead. If we all just bought knockoffs, eventually people are going to stop doing good R&D to get good quality stuff. Anyway, like I say, I'm not really having a histrionic conniption about it like I used to, but it's just how I, personally, feel. And it only seems to be about certain things. I buy Oreos, but people tell me their Hydrox knockoffs. But I like the Oreos better.


I get your point but we put our music up for free anyway. 
I suppose in the end it boils down to the old piracy argument. Personally I believe that the people who buy knock-offs were never going to buy the real one anyway so the original creator is not losing any money. If I remember correctly, the EU recently tried to bury a study that claimed piracy actually even boosts movie/game sales if anything but take it with a grain of salt, as I don't think it can be applied to products like guitars that easily.


----------



## nienturi (Feb 6, 2019)

Thanks for the review


----------



## I play music (Feb 6, 2019)

Sogradde said:


> I get your point but we put our music up for free anyway.
> I suppose in the end it boils down to the old piracy argument. Personally I believe that the people who buy knock-offs were never going to buy the real one anyway so the original creator is not losing any money. If I remember correctly, the EU recently tried to bury a study that claimed piracy actually even boosts movie/game sales if anything but take it with a grain of salt, as I don't think it can be applied to products like guitars that easily.


Can you by chance tell me the title/author of that study? Sounds interesting enough to have a look at it.


----------



## Aliascent (Feb 6, 2019)

I play music said:


> Can you by chance tell me the title/author of that study? Sounds interesting enough to have a look at it.



You can access it from there: https://gizmodo.com/the-eu-suppressed-a-300-page-study-that-found-piracy-do-1818629537/amp


----------



## Mathemagician (Feb 6, 2019)

People can justify stealing all they want that’s fine. 

Just call a spade a spade.


----------



## Sogradde (Feb 6, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> People can justify stealing all they want that’s fine.
> 
> Just call a spade a spade.


What's being stolen?


----------



## Sogradde (Feb 6, 2019)

Very mature.

Are all those LP and Strat copies also stealing?


----------



## xzacx (Feb 6, 2019)

Sogradde said:


> Very mature.
> 
> Are all those LP and Strat copies also stealing?



Absolutely. Why would that be different? (I understand that copywrites don't last forever, but that's not what I'm referring to.)


----------



## NoodleFace (Feb 6, 2019)

I feel like if people that bought these guitars were actually the owners of the real guitar companies, they'd have a drastically different opinion.

They can pretend they won't, but they would.


----------



## Mathemagician (Feb 6, 2019)

What’s immature is the feigned ignorance on the matter of intellectual property. If you want to make a fender or a Gibson guitar you have to license the design. 

It’s why ESP and Ibanez amongst smaller brands had to start making their own shapes.

The cheap knockoffs are stealing IP. Most Americans and Europeans understand that plainly as these nations have strong IP laws. 

So I’m going to assume you’re from a country where things are so expensive due to VATs & tariffs that this kind of thing is so common that you don’t see a problem with it. 

It’s still stealing. Again if you’re fine with it great, but you’re on the wrong side of a literal definition.


----------



## Sogradde (Feb 6, 2019)

I can hardly feign ignorance when I genuinely don't know patent law. I'm not a lawyer after all. 
If you're concerned with the legal status of that shop, why don't you report them to Reverb?
Otherwise I guess it's about Ola not receiving monetary compensation from them using his design? I made a case arguing that the people buying copies never would have bought the original anyway and provided a study that this argument is true at least for movies and video games. All you provided so far is "Muh feelings!".


----------



## Morchiant (Feb 6, 2019)

There is no infringing of the IP if there is no IP to begin with. Not sure if these companies have patents on their designs, but assuming they do, its their responsibility to go after the fakes. My guess is that there are no design patents (I haven't done a search), so yeah, it becomes a free for all on the copying. And I happen to be a patent attorney (and this is in no way me providing legal advice).


----------



## iamaom (Feb 6, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> intellectual property


IP laws are bullshit, Leo Fender had to use different designs for his MM and GL instruments or get sued by a company named after him for designs that he made.



Mathemagician said:


> It’s why ESP and Ibanez amongst smaller brands had to start making their own shapes.


And by "own" shapes you mean the bare minimum not to get sued by the companies they were trying to copy.

If Ola wanted to capture the market allegedly stealing his business then he can also make $500 chinese guitars with the Strandberg (or child brand, like Squire does) name, as NK guitars has proven it possible to produce a working product at that price point. I'd rather have one with QC vetted by him than a no name brand and these have been around for a few years, the ball is in his court.


----------



## xzacx (Feb 6, 2019)

iamaom said:


> IP laws are bullshit, *Leo Fender had to use different designs for his MM and GL instruments or get sued by a company named after him for designs that he made.*



I mean, he sold the company. Seems only right to me that you don't get to sell a company and just keep making that exact same product.

I don't know enough about IP laws to comment on the legality of any of this, I'm only speaking on what I feel is right and wrong. And I think expecting a relatively small company like Ola's to spend its time and money going after fakes rather that making guitars is a ridiculous way to utilize resources. I realize the is a very idealistic point of view, but I just think the best way to combat stuff like this is by not supporting it.


----------



## MoJoToJo (Feb 6, 2019)

Amazing likeness to a EC1000 LTD for $191.00. Surprised they get away with selling that in USA the land of sue anything that moves? https://www.thomannmusic.com/harley_benton_sc_custom_vb.htm


----------



## wedge_destroyer (Feb 6, 2019)

MoJoToJo said:


> Surprised they get away with selling that in USA the land of sue anything that moves?



Who said it has to move?


----------



## Wolfhorsky (Feb 7, 2019)

I like these cheap guitars and probably I will buy one to mod the hell out of it. 
I like Strandberg's aesthetics. I like the design. I think that they are very overpriced (I can have basic Skerv for MII/MIC Standberg). And finally - I know I won't like the endurneck. Period. Now, eat this ;-)


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Feb 7, 2019)

Here's a fun fact. I have zero percent chance of purchasing a 1k+ guitar of this shape/design. There's a small chance I'd buy a budget friendly squier/epiphone style version.

There's a 100% chance strandberg won't see my money unless they officially release a budget model. They want my money so bad, they can make a budget model. If you don't offer stuff at all price points, someone will. And I would gladly purchase a $500-600 official model over a 100-300 counterfeit any day. But they don't exist, so gimme them chinese knock offs.

How would I feel about people stealing my art? People have, and I don't care. Other people have literally made more money off of my art than I have myself. This white knight nonsense is irritating. Things are only worth what people are willing to pay. If someone is only willing to pay $400, then banning all the above $400 things won't make them buy it. If you won't capitalize on that, someone will.

Edit: for the record, there's also a 100% chance the chinese won't see my money either. I hate the strandberg design.


----------



## xzacx (Feb 7, 2019)

Señor Voorhees said:


> There's a 100% chance strandberg won't see my money unless they officially release a budget model. They want my money so bad, they can make a budget model. If you don't offer stuff at all price points, someone will. And I would gladly purchase a $500-600 official model over a 100-300 counterfeit any day. But they don't exist, so gimme them chinese knock offs.
> 
> How would I feel about people stealing my art? People have, and I don't care. Other people have literally made more money off of my art than I have myself. This white knight nonsense is irritating. Things are only worth what people are willing to pay. If someone is only willing to pay $400, then banning all the above $400 things won't make them buy it. If you won't capitalize on that, someone will.



I’m pretty sure Strandberg is aware that they won’t see anyone’s money who isn’t willing to pay their prices. But that doesn’t mean people who aren’t willing to pay them are entitled to a cheaper version. This isn’t food or shelter or healthcare we are talking about. It’s a niche musical instrument at an arguably luxury price point. 

I don’t get your argument either about things being worth what people are willing to pay. People are willing and do pay Strandberg prices. Again, everyone isn’t entitled to every product they want at the exact price they’re willing to pay. A fake Strandberg isn’t the only guitar available for $400. You can buy a real Epiphone, or Squier, or LTD, or Schecter, or whatever. But if you want a Strandberg, you have what a real Strandberg costs. Why is that unacceptable?


----------



## crackout (Feb 8, 2019)

It doesn't matter if customers of cheap counterfeits would have bought the original at some point. The creators of the knock off use innovation and design elements of others to even sell the their product in the first place.


----------



## alekosh (Feb 8, 2019)

I am just glad we are civilised about it and a proper discussion is going on. You all have a point for me and a viewing angle that i see logical. The fact is we live in a world of fierce competition and demand vs supply. I am against counterfeits as a principle. But the original's price is very prohibitive for me. I am no expert so I don't know if it's overpriced. I hope is not.

Someone mentioned copying music and itunes and is totally right. On the other hand, 10 20 years ago, you needed to buy a cd that was highly overpriced. Especially in some parts of the world, i had paid 40 dollars for an album. So the demand turned elsewhere and other platforms. Businesses took over and screwed musicians. But they have failed to adjust in the first place.

My point is that if there is demand for something, there needs to be an adjustment from the manufactured to meet it. Otherwise, someone else will and you will be screwed. I just don't agree replicating the design or making a counterfeit.


----------



## Demiurge (Feb 8, 2019)

alekosh said:


> My point is that if there is demand for something, there needs to be an adjustment from the manufactured to meet it. Otherwise, someone else will and you will be screwed. I just don't agree replicating the design or making a counterfeit.



In a way, I think this makes sense, but this is the world of musical instruments where other forces factor-in. 'Unmet' demand becomes cachet, hype, or mystique that drives prices up: look at Blackmachine or, perhaps, the pricing of Indo Strandbergs- especially the basses. The builders must know that there are phonies & copies out there, and they may feel secure knowing that they're not truly affecting their bottom line (with people still paying top-top-top dollar for the real thing) and that it's not worth competing with that market.


----------



## Mathemagician (Feb 8, 2019)

No it’s that pursuing legal action against small fly-by-night builders is expensive and all that will happen is the copies will show up on eBay/reverb under a different factory name. Chinese copycats don’t face any scrutiny from the gov’t so there is no concern of being fined.


----------



## Shoeless_jose (Feb 8, 2019)

I think this is one case where the shape is what makes the instrument special, so stealing it is low.

How does it work with cars? All the companies pickup trucks look quite similar, I think some shapes of guitars should be public domain and I am also against these knockoffs.

Sorry just finished 12 hour night shift so my thoughts arent super coherent.


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

This just show perfectly how incredibly overpriced strandbergs are and that the cost is not coming from manufacture challenges. 1500$ for the Chinese made standbergs while they still make profit on the knockoffs for 300$?


----------



## littlebadboy (Feb 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> This just show perfectly how incredibly overpriced strandbergs are and that the cost is not coming from manufacture challenges. 1500$ for the Chinese made standbergs while they still make profit on the knockoffs for 300$?


But... they don't pay workers in China the same rate we do because they have different living conditions and standards. Probably not much or no pension and etc.


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> But... they don't pay workers in China the same rate we do because they have different living conditions and standards. Probably not much or no pension and etc.



Do you mean that the factories that strandberg use have better conditions than other Chinese factories? I was not aware.


----------



## littlebadboy (Feb 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Do you mean that the factories that strandberg use have better conditions than other Chinese factories? I was not aware.


I am not familiar with Strandberg guitars. I do not own one as I could not afford one and I have nothing against Chinese guitars. My apologies for not doing research first. But, I am thinking that Strandberg has their factory for their premium line (if there is one) built in a 1st world country?


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> I am not familiar with Strandberg guitars. I do not own one as I could not afford one and I have nothing against Chinese guitars. My apologies for not doing research first. But, I am thinking that Strandberg has their factory for their premium line (if there is one) built in a 1st world country?



Not anymore, they had a US and a Swedish custom line for their flagship models, but they all closed this year in favor if the import line. What you can buy for 1500$ USD are Chinese made guitars, hence my post. The more expensive models (2500$ USD) are made in Indonesia (or Korea?). 

You can also buy their Japanese line from sellers in Japan, but the prices are outrageously high (I have seen them go as high as 6000$ US). 

I really doubt that they have their own factory in China with better working conditions. There is really no good reason for their prices to be that high.


----------



## littlebadboy (Feb 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Not anymore, they had a US and a Swedish custom line for their flagship models, but they all closed this year in favor if the import line. What you can buy for 1500$ USD are Chinese made guitars, hence my post. The more expensive models (2500$ USD) are made in Indonesia (or Korea?).
> 
> You can also buy their Japanese line from sellers in Japan, but the prices are outrageously high (I have seen them go as high as 6000$ US).
> 
> I really doubt that they have their own factory in China with better working conditions. There is really no good reason for their prices to be that high.



I understand you now. My apologies.


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> I understand you now. My apologies.



No apologies needed, it’s best to be well informed before buying


----------



## diagrammatiks (Feb 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> This just show perfectly how incredibly overpriced strandbergs are and that the cost is not coming from manufacture challenges. 1500$ for the Chinese made standbergs while they still make profit on the knockoffs for 300$?



ya because the 300 is just as good. rolls eyes emoji.


----------



## I play music (Feb 9, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> ya because the 300 is just as good. rolls eyes emoji.


Also as far as I know, all Strandbergs are now made in Indonesia (or Japan) but not in China. 

I'm happy to see though that it is possible these days to produce a playable headless guitar for 300€. Hopefully that means we see something like a Harley Benton headless soon ;-)


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> ya because the 300 is just as good. rolls eyes emoji.



I just love passive agressiveness, always makes an interesting and constructive conversation.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Feb 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> I just love passive agressiveness, always makes an interesting and constructive conversation.



I mean how else am I supposed to respond to something completely wrong. I'm not trying to give myself an aneurysm here.


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean how else am I supposed to respond to something completely wrong. I'm not trying to give myself an aneurysm here.



Why not?


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

I play music said:


> Also as far as I know, all Strandbergs are now made in Indonesia (or Japan) but not in China.
> 
> I'm happy to see though that it is possible these days to produce a playable headless guitar for 300€. Hopefully that means we see something like a Harley Benton headless soon ;-)



The classic model is made in China and the more expensive line in Indonesia.


----------



## I play music (Feb 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> The classic model is made in China and the more expensive line in Indonesia.


No, the Classic models are now also made in Indonesia.


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 9, 2019)

I play music said:


> No, the Classic models are now also made in Indonesia.



I didn’t know that they changed factories, thanks.


----------



## Lord Voldemort (Feb 10, 2019)

Looks great! I really liked mine, besides that absolutely atrocious bridge, so I'm very interested tempted to grab another.

Guitarists are so silly. I think on this forum, I've seen both sentiments of 'there's no such thing as stealing guitar ideas/of course people are going to take ideas, it's good for the market and the consumer' and 'I don't support these Chinese copies, it's stealing ideas' literally from the same posters.

If you're going to take your guitar to China to use slave labor to mass produce it to cut a giant profit, it's only karma that it'll be immediately stolen, made just as well and sold by a bunch of other people, probably the same people you're paying pennies an hour to, maybe even in the same factory. Oh, and while it's not certain, it's very possible that the producers of these knock offs are the same workers that Strandberg is exploiting to rack up an insane profit, so actually by buying a knock off you're very possibly giving a smaller amount of underpaid workers a gross $400, whereas if you buy a Strandberg from China for $1,500 the Chinese factory will probably receive a net pay of something >5-10% from that $1,500, and divide that out to the several workers in sadly uneven portions. 

If you're trying to be a moral guitarist just buy an instrument made from a country with fair pay, working conditions and retirement. Any Chinese guitar you buy from a big brand is just as immoral as this, but at least with this you're cutting out the middleman and giving the Chinese a fair share.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Feb 10, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Looks great! I really liked mine, besides that absolutely atrocious bridge, so I'm very interested tempted to grab another.
> 
> Guitarists are so silly. I think on this forum, I've seen both sentiments of 'there's no such thing as stealing guitar ideas/of course people are going to take ideas, it's good for the market and the consumer' and 'I don't support these Chinese copies, it's stealing ideas' literally from the same posters.
> 
> ...



I’m very proud that you are totally and completely committed to your delusional view of the world. 

Can’t wait for your next expensive guitars rant.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Looks great! I really liked mine, besides that absolutely atrocious bridge, so I'm very interested tempted to grab another.
> 
> Guitarists are so silly. I think on this forum, I've seen both sentiments of 'there's no such thing as stealing guitar ideas/of course people are going to take ideas, it's good for the market and the consumer' and 'I don't support these Chinese copies, it's stealing ideas' literally from the same posters.
> 
> ...



Before you twist your rationalizations into a complete knot, at least try to get some facts. If you know that Strandberg is underpaying the Chinese workers, then fine. Otherwise you’re just being an asshole to a guy, and company, that by all accounts is very fair and upstanding.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Feb 10, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Before you twist your rationalizations into a complete knot, at least try to get some facts. If you know that Strandberg is underpaying the Chinese workers, then fine. Otherwise you’re just being an asshole to a guy, and company, that by all accounts is very fair and upstanding.



Dude what are you talking about. This rationalization is rock fucking solid. 

Despite being a country of over 1 billion people with multiple manufacturing centers and businesses of all different sizes, there’s only one level of quality for everything produced in the entire country. 

Just one. 

That level is just set at whatever the fuck I feel like spending for my knock-off guitar. So 400 dollars. That’s it man. The best shit in China should only cost 400 dollars. Whatever you buy for 400. For 1500. For 3000. All the same. No fucking difference. 

So don’t be a dummy. Everyone else is trying to rip you off man. 

Also, since it’s all the same there’s no way that the cheaper product is cutting corners or underpaying people or slumping on quality control. No fucking way. It can only be the more expensive guys that are fucking and the workers. 

Remember. Just one level of quality. Fucking one.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Dude what are you talking about. This rationalization is rock fucking solid.
> 
> Despite being a country of over 1 billion people with multiple manufacturing centers and businesses of all different sizes, there’s only one level of quality for everything produced in the entire country.
> 
> ...


Exactly! That’s why a company like Apple would never make something as quality-dependent as the iPhone in China. There is no way to make higher quality goods in that country!


----------



## sezna (Feb 10, 2019)

China has a lot of factories. Less guitar factories but still plenty. I’d honestly point to Fender’s MIC Squier teles as decent MIC quality. 

BTW there are better factories in China that can’t get business because “MIC” implies low cost low quality, and they make their own (decent quality) guitars for decent prices actually. Unfortunately, respect of IP is not a big deal there so they often also clone guitars, but that is how most factories manage to survive there. I’d refrain from taking moral high ground without really understanding the socioeconomic background that led to the status quo, though.


----------



## littlebadboy (Feb 10, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> If you're going to take your guitar to China to use slave labor to mass produce it to cut a giant profit, it's only karma that it'll be immediately stolen, made just as well and sold by a bunch of other people, probably the same people you're paying pennies an hour to, maybe even in the same factory. Oh, and while it's not certain, it's very possible that the producers of these knock offs are the same workers that Strandberg is exploiting to rack up an insane profit, so actually by buying a knock off you're very possibly giving a smaller amount of underpaid workers a gross $400, whereas if you buy a Strandberg from China for $1,500 the Chinese factory will probably receive a net pay of something >5-10% from that $1,500, and divide that out to the several workers in sadly uneven portions.
> 
> If you're trying to be a moral guitarist just buy an instrument made from a country with fair pay, working conditions and retirement. Any Chinese guitar you buy from a big brand is just as immoral as this, but at least with this you're cutting out the middleman and giving the Chinese a fair share.



That is an interesting perspective. I somewhat agree with you. If a company brought it to a cheap manufacturing country, why not tone down its price too to make it affordable!

People can get so greedy...


----------



## Musiscience (Feb 10, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Dude what are you talking about. This rationalization is rock fucking solid.
> 
> Despite being a country of over 1 billion people with multiple manufacturing centers and businesses of all different sizes, there’s only one level of quality for everything produced in the entire country.
> 
> ...



Are you alright? You seem mad.


----------



## littlebadboy (Feb 10, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Are you alright? You seem mad.


Somebody needs a hug?


----------



## Lord Voldemort (Feb 10, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Before you twist your rationalizations into a complete knot, at least try to get some facts. If you know that Strandberg is underpaying the Chinese workers, then fine. Otherwise you’re just being an asshole to a guy, and company, that by all accounts is very fair and upstanding.



Well, I doubt that I could track down the average labor cost of a Chinese guitar maker specifically for Strandberg, but I'll Google it real quick, here goes:

The average Chinese Laborer makes $3 an hour. I have no idea if the guitar makers there make that or not, couldn't track that down. If they do, though, they're save over 10x the money they'd pay their own workers in labor if they paid them $13 an hour, and I'd hope they'd pay them more than that.

Spoiler alert: the whole point of taking your guitar factory to China is to exploit the workers and rack up incredible profits. Lots of times that savings in labor means a savings on the cost of the guitar for the consumer, but Strandberg in particular didn't really show much of that with their 'classic' models going for effing $1,500. Incidentally, an NK goes for $400, and they're probably making a profit, so extrapolate the amount of pure profits Strandberg made considering their considerably bigger batches and higher price tag. Who do you think took that money? The Chinese workers putting in 12+ hour days?

Oh, but I wouldn't want to support a company that takes a guitar body shape, that's immoral.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2019)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Well, I doubt that I could track down the average labor cost of a Chinese guitar maker specifically for Strandberg, but I'll Google it real quick, here goes:
> 
> The average Chinese Laborer makes $3 an hour. I have no idea if the guitar makers there make that or not, couldn't track that down. If they do, though, they're save over 10x the money they'd pay their own workers in labor if they paid them $13 an hour, and I'd hope they'd pay them more than that.
> 
> ...



Again, you're saying you have no idea if what you're saying is true, yet you continue to say strandberg is exploiting Chinese workers. You don't get to just make stuff up. Find some facts to back up your claims, or just admit you have none. And no one said that copying a guitar shape is immoral. You're really good with the straw man thing, but you haven't actually presented any argument yet.

And just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong or right. I'm just saying that arguing hypothetical arguments with no facts makes no sense, and gets us nowhere. You're presenting this a reason one should buy a guitar directly from China. But you really need some sort of evidence to back up your claims.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2019)

littlebadboy said:


> That is an interesting perspective. I somewhat agree with you. If a company brought it to a cheap manufacturing country, why not tone down its price too to make it affordable!
> 
> People can get so greedy...



They do. Generally speaking, all guitar companies charge more for guitars made in Japan, USA, EU, less for South Korea, least for China. What people will often argue about is whether South Koreans and Chinese are capable of making instruments of the same quality as Japan, America, or the EU. Some people say they can, others say they cannot.


----------



## Shoeless_jose (Feb 10, 2019)

What I want to know is how 3 dollars an hour is ten times less than 13 dollars an hour.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 10, 2019)

I would like to know what the Chinese factory workers in these guitar factories that make guitars for overseas companies earn, as compared to the Chinese factories workers that are making guitars for domestic companies. While I don't want to support a company that is making copies of other companies' designs, I would be much more likely to support those domestic workers directly. It's a difficult thing to do, because so much of what we buy in a first world company is made by exploited workers in third world countries. But, when possible I try to buy from companies that don't do that. I know big clothing companies tend to exploit workers (at least when it makes the news), and I try to buy from those companies that make it a point to pay a living wage to its workers. But man, it's tough to get at that information. If Lord V, or anyone else (me included) wants to know what the workers are paid in the factories that used to make strandbergs, I bet Ola would be open to at least discussing what he knows about it.


----------



## Lord Voldemort (Feb 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> What I want to know is how 3 dollars an hour is ten times less than 13 dollars an hour.



That's just me being an idiot, it's more like 4 times, isn't it? Though I'd assume Strandberg pays their own people more than $13 an hour, so it's definitely considerable. The average American worker makes over $30, I just mixed up some numbers because I'm stupid. 



Hollowway said:


> Again, you're saying you have no idea if what you're saying is true, yet you continue to say strandberg is exploiting Chinese workers. You don't get to just make stuff up. Find some facts to back up your claims, or just admit you have none. And no one said that copying a guitar shape is immoral. You're really good with the straw man thing, but you haven't actually presented any argument yet.
> 
> And just to be clear, I'm not saying you're wrong or right. I'm just saying that arguing hypothetical arguments with no facts makes no sense, and gets us nowhere. You're presenting this a reason one should buy a guitar directly from China. But you really need some sort of evidence to back up your claims.



That's somewhat true, isn't it? I can't prove that Strandberg pays their workers $3 an hour. I looked it up, and it's not findable by any means I have to find it. I also can't prove that NK is just Chinese Strandberg workers, that isn't something I can track down either. I also can't prove that the owners of NK are former Strandberg workers, how would I know? 

So, it's not that simple. I can prove that an average Chinese worker makes $3 an hour, while an average American worker makes over $30 an hour. I can also deduce that Strandberg Chinese guitar laborers probably make around what the average Chinese wage is, from some other Google searches regarding Chinese guitar maker wages. 

I can also see that, right after Strandberg opened a shop in China, teaching Chinese guitar makers how to make Strandberg headless guitars, a bunch of copycat brands came out making Strandberg headless guitars. I can't prove there is a correlation, but that's the chronological order of events. 

I can also see that Strandberg charged $1,500 for a guitar (maybe more, I don't remember?) And NK charges $270-400. I can also deduce that NK is probably profiting, as why else would they sell anything? 

You see how this works? When someone doesn't have a plate full of facts, that doesn't mean they can't still weigh out variables and employ some deductive reasoning based on the variables. I'm also not arguing a strawman, plenty of people have unironically stated that stealing the Strandberg shape is 'immoral', and pointing out the gap of logic. 

Having a Chinese shop and charging American guitar prices is bluntly greedy, and you're grasping at straws suggesting otherwise.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 10, 2019)

I'm just going to nip this one in the bud. 

This is just one of those topics where folks just lose it.


----------

