# Need a bass for my 8 string guitar



## blackinfinity (Jul 6, 2008)

I am a guitar player for soon 15 years, I recently bought a 8 string guitar. In my music I also need bass, I know nothing about basses and strings etc, so I really need some advice of what bass to buy. 

I understand that an "normal" 5 string bass will not be enough to match the extreme low frequencies on the 8 string guitar. I tune the guitar in F# on the low string, so to match the low F# I need a way more thicker string then an usual "B string".

I can also imagine to keep good sustain on such low tones you also need an extremely long scale. As I said I am a guitarist, and I know absolutely nothing about basses in general, so please help me out here, it would be deeply appreciated. 

What I want is the bass to sound extremely good that is first priority, the appearance is not so important, since I will most likely not play with it outside my room. So I do not want to pay extra just for an bass to looks cool! 

My budget is very limited, and I do not feel like spending much money, however, I will spend so much that I have to, to get the sound I need for my music. 

Please feel free recommend basses and specific models etc


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## Ishan (Jul 6, 2008)

If you want to go the sub-contra route (i.e.: playing an octave down) you should buy a 35" scale 4 strings and use a Warwick Dark Lord string set, it'll need a good setup.
a 5 or 6 strings works too but you'll need to add the remaining strings as single strings.

The cheaper, easier way is to mount light strings on a standard 4 strings and play unison with the guitar (i.e.: a full step up), generally with a bit of overdrive/distortion a la Meshuggah.


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## Suho (Jul 6, 2008)

The Dark Lord that Ishan refers to is probably the most publicized effort to create such an ultra-low tuned bass, although you can probably get the same effect for much less money than the Warwick. 

One of the real difficulties you will have, whether you use the Warwick, a low tuned 7-string like a Conklin, or anything else is that even if you get an appropriate guage string (for which I believe there was a good discussion thread within the past year, if you search), the F# frequencies are so low that you need to be very careful in selecting an amplifier that captures and works on the vibrations in those low, low frequencies. 

I think it was Guitar World did a review on the Dark Lord within the past year (if not them, some magazine did). They discuss this matter to some extent, too.

I have a Conklin GT-7 bass that was advertised as being tuned F# through C, and I was concerned about this myself. While some of these are tuned that way, or at least they can be, I breathed a sigh of relief when I got it and realized the seller had made a mistake. B-F, and I was happy with that. 

Good luck with the low F#.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jul 6, 2008)

I'd do the unison thingy, but that's just me.

What would be really cool would be a six string dark lord in double courses. (Contra Bass/Regular Bass)


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## Metal Ken (Jul 6, 2008)

Unison would be my choice. By Nature of the instrument, the bass will still fill out the lower frequencies, anyway. Despite the fact the notes are the same, the timbre is way different.


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## Suho (Jul 6, 2008)

blackinfinity,
did you check out this thread?

"Bass Tuning in F"


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## knuckle_head (Jul 6, 2008)

I didn't notice that you specified how you tune your 8 string. I prefer an octave spread at least between my bass and my baritones - but that is me.

Unison tuning works amazingly as evidenced by what Meshuggah does. Octave down is equally amazing. 

Your understanding of length being beneficial is spot on - but anything extraordinary will limit you regarding string choices. You have your best selection staying at 35". You will likely stay within your budget staying at 35" as well.

I'd suggest that you don't need to have any more than 4 strings, but anything beyond 5 you will likely spend a premium on. 

Come by a decent 5 string, 35" Ibanez with a top-loading bridge and experiment with strings. Worry about reproduction later - if this is a recording/composing tool you are better served sonically by going direct anyway.

When you have the money to spend I can hook you up with a really good subcontra bass.


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## Crucified (Jul 7, 2008)

the dark lord was pretty sweet but i'd probably want to go a little longer for scale for low f# to be perfect. that or a bigger string.


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## Shannon (Jul 7, 2008)

While the Dark Lord has been the most publicized, the best basses for ultra low tunings are made by Knuckle Guitar Works. 39" scale basses & they play fantastic.


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## blackinfinity (Jul 13, 2008)

Hello Thanks for your replies..and sorry for the delay..

I have pretty much gived up the idea of tune a bass in F...
I did not realize how fucking low these tones are...so low that they
lose any kind of musical value... However, I must do an compromise...
I need the bass to tune at least in Ab...or lower..however the Sustain is very important.. if I do not have normal sustain it will be kind of unusable, since I play very very slow and heavy music. 

So is still a 35 scale neck enough to meet my needs ?
is Ab the absolute limit ? 
I have still a hard time to imagine how an Ab would sound like with bass.
But some one told me that you can't go lower if you want to keep a reasonable amount of sustain in the tone. But maybe I need very thick strings and extreme long neck to get a good tone in Ab ???


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## Mr. S (Jul 13, 2008)

You could always get a regular 4 string bass and tune it up to F#


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## blackinfinity (Jul 13, 2008)

Mr. S said:


> You could always get a regular 4 string bass and tune it up to F#



yes some one did mention that earlier in this thread. But I did heard the dark Lord bass tuned in F# on youtube, it did sound like a joke really, totally worthless..no sustain unusable tone...it only works for slap bass and fast playing when you do not need sustain.


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## knuckle_head (Jul 13, 2008)

blackinfinity said:


> I have pretty much gived up the idea of tune a bass in F... I did not realize how fucking low these tones are...so low that they lose any kind of musical value...



Take a listen to both 'The Slow Vibration' and 'No One Likes a Fool' by Hello Karma - there is definition and sustain from two different basses tuned to either F# or octave down E. With decent tension and good instrument rigidity you can get what you want as low as you want.

If you are determined to go no lower than Ab you can get there using an off-the-shelf .145 on a 35" scale bass and have it behave decently.


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## Suho (Jul 13, 2008)

Blackinfinity,

Mr. S suggested tuning UP to F#. That is different than the super low F# of the Dark Lord. It is a regular 4 string tuned one whole step higher. Standard or even short scale would be fine for that. 

The previous post presents an interesting option. Record a double tracked bass line in octaves, one track for the sub-tones and one an octave higher for the definition and sustain. Better yet, just record one with a good octave pedal. That was what gigging bassists did for years to emulate lower register keyboard parts using a 4 string (standard tuned) bass.


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## blackinfinity (Jul 13, 2008)

Suho said:


> Blackinfinity,
> 
> Mr. S suggested tuning UP to F#. That is different than the super low F# of the Dark Lord. It is a regular 4 string tuned one whole step higher. Standard or even short scale would be fine for that.
> 
> The previous post presents an interesting option. Record a double tracked bass line in octaves, one track for the sub-tones and one an octave higher for the definition and sustain. Better yet, just record one with a good octave pedal. That was what gigging bassists did for years to emulate lower register keyboard parts using a 4 string (standard tuned) bass.



yeah, well, I would want go as low as possible, I am still not sure how low Ab is on a Bass...

Octave pedals...I think a powerful VST plugin would work better really...
However..I am still skeptical that this would actally sound good..feel free to give me evidence..that it works, thanks.


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## knuckle_head (Jul 14, 2008)

Ab is 27 Hz - a step-and-a-half lower than B. Very reproducable with a traditional rig. But then most rigs do well with the octave down E as well.

It was my experience that hardware pitch shifters didn't work well. They cease tracking properly at standard 55 Hz A. Plugins may behave better.


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## Mr. S (Jul 14, 2008)

blackinfinity said:


> yeah, well, I would want go as low as possible, I am still not sure how low Ab is on a Bass...
> 
> Octave pedals...I think a powerful VST plugin would work better really...
> However..I am still skeptical that this would actally sound good..feel free to give me evidence..that it works, thanks.



give tuning up a go man, it actually contrasts quite well when recorded as I found that the bass had a lot of 'snap' to it that sounded great when run through a bass OD pedal.


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## blackinfinity (Jul 14, 2008)

knuckle_head said:


> Ab is 27 Hz - a step-and-a-half lower than B. Very reproducable with a traditional rig. But then most rigs do well with the octave down E as well.
> 
> It was my experience that hardware pitch shifters didn't work well. They cease tracking properly at standard 55 Hz A. Plugins may behave better.



Thanks for the information. I would still want to know what string tension you will get it in Ab. Or lower. By the way..I think we are talking about different octaves now... E is actually lower then "F" which is extremely low...However, a guy on another forum who own the Dark Lord, told me I should not judge my opinion on the clips on youtube, they are not at all representative... 

But as I said earlier, I have pretty much gived up to be an octave lower with the bass on the lowest strings below Ab...


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## chimp_spanner (Jul 14, 2008)

I'm currently working through this problem myself - not sure I've had the 8 long enough (or recorded enough with it) to know if it's going to be worth doing. My main issue is that the parts where I'm playing low B on my guitar and bass, end up sounding way deeper and more powerful than the F# sections. So I think at some point I will want to go the octave lower route. Not necessarily to do it all the time, but just where it needs to be done.

My main problem at the moment is the bridge on my bass just won't allow me to experiment with thicker strings. But after buying the Ibanez I think it'd be a little crazy to go splash out some more on a bass.

Crazy-SLASH-impossible..."lawl"


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## zapper1986 (Jul 14, 2008)

what if just used the neck pickup of ur 8 string threw a bass amp? if you were going go for the unison thing. i know it wouldn't sound exactly like a bass but i mean it wouldn't hurt to try it


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## knuckle_head (Jul 15, 2008)

blackinfinity said:


> Thanks for the information. I would still want to know what string tension you will get it in Ab. Or lower. By the way..I think we are talking about different octaves now... E is actually lower then "F" which is extremely low...However, a guy on another forum who own the Dark Lord, told me I should not judge my opinion on the clips on youtube, they are not at all representative...
> 
> But as I said earlier, I have pretty much gived up to be an octave lower with the bass on the lowest strings below Ab...



The Ab I mean is the one that is below the traditional B on a 5 string bass. A .145 tuned to Ab would have about 30 pounds of tension. A decent tension for a traditional E string is between 34 and 36 pounds so this would feel 'normal'.

The Dark Lord is a good bass, but you don't need it specifically to tune low - it is my opinion that a standard 4 or 5 string bass is every bit as good. What you need is alot of mass and alot of rigidity. Neck through would suit you better than bolt on. Longer is better - 36" if you can find one, though a 35" will get you there as well. 

The A on my bass is a .130 and it is uber tight, but I have alot more length than you'll likely end up with.


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## chimp_spanner (Jul 16, 2008)

I've got some custom strings on order from Newtone. The brief I gave them was:

Thin string, low tuning, high tension. 

They seem hopeful they can work something out - it will just involve creating a customised high tension core inside of a standard(ish) gauge set of strings. 

They used the word "experimental" but, I'm holding out hope! I'll let you all know how it goes when they arrive...


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## knuckle_head (Jul 16, 2008)

Report back - I'm curious.

First go at something similar for me yielded a thick core that was very inflexible. I didn't care for it.


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## h00t (Jul 21, 2008)

I don't get it, the OP decided to give up on his original plan because of a couple of unsavory youtube videos. One of which, the sloppy-slapping Dark Lord dork, isn't even tuned low. He put regular EADG strings on it. And then the Chris Revill one, well, he's not a solo bassist. Not to mention that a video on your computer will only sound as good as the camera, size compression, and the end user's speakers will allow. I've found that on low notes like sub-E and F# can sustain for a seemingly infinite amount of time with lots of volume since the strong vibes will keep feeding energy to the string. Even without playing loud, low notes will sustain like any other note. 
It also perplexes me how the OP is now set on A-flat (25.95 Hz), as if it's so much more accessible than the F# (23.12 Hz!) just one step below it. While the D'Addario pro steel .145 is great and affordable, the decent Warwick .175/.135/.105/.85 set can be had for $60 shipped and will only get cheaper and better as more people see the light.
This isn't a personal attack or anything of that nature, but how about some persistance?

Oh by the way knuckle man, I love that song by Hello Karma, definetly a good example of a tasteful way to use ultra low notes.


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## 7deadlysins666 (Aug 5, 2008)

My bass player uses a Ibanez SR505 With EMGs (he got one about a month before they started putting bartolini's in them) and we have 2 songs in Ab, both are very sludgy songs and he has No problem. I don't know what gauge strings he uses, but I know they aren't Ultra thick or anything. You shouldn't have any problems. Though, tuning that low, I would try to aim for basses made from woods that produce brighter sounds such as Alder. This would probably help a lot with clarity. Things can EASILY get muddy tuning low, especially live. 

One trick we do for both me(guitars) and bass is mic our amps off axis live and in the studio, which gets more mids, punch, and clarity. Start with the mic centered at a speaker like usual, then slide it a little to the right, and then tilt the mic towards the center of the speaker. This simple trick added a LOT more clarity to our live sound.


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## chimp_spanner (Aug 6, 2008)

Well I got my strings through but so far, having a few problems. I'm going to blame them on my bass more than the strings. There's just not enough tension to hold them in shape - literally, in F# the string is physically warped. To pull it taught enough to produce an actual musical note I have to tune it to B. Booo.

I guess my next question (assuming there's nothing that can be done about this - I've emailed Newtone so I'll see what they say) is what the hell kind of bass do I need to use a 175 gauge string? My crappy diamond series bridge struggled with the 138 F# they made me. I'm not getting anything thicker than a 140 in there


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## Strictly 7 (Aug 6, 2008)

Blackinfinity:

I have 3 different basses: 

my Conklin GT-7 is tuned F# (.145 gauge string) to C, I only use it in the studio, recording direct to maximize the frequency in the recording, but live I play the low F# or G an octave higher since I don't feel the need to spend 3+ grand on an amp/rig to bring out these tones live.

My main bass is my custom Roscoe 7-string which is traditional low B to high F

And my old (1991) Yamaha TRB-6 which is tuned low B to C but I have a hipshot on my B which takes it down to A and the tone live or in studio is perfect! You could probably set up a hipshot to go to Ab with little difficulty on a standard scale bass, my Yamaha is not extended scale.

If you use a double tapered low B string (.130 gauge) you should be fine to tune down to Ab, I don't think the low F# or G will be missed.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

later,
Jim/Strictly 7 Guitars, LLC


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## chimp_spanner (Aug 12, 2008)

Just a quick update on this, for any of you who are thinking of persevering with low F# tuning. First of all, as I've said elsewhere, Newtone have been very helpful. For all intensive purposes I ruined the string (I'll explain how in a second) and they're sending me a replacement so I can fit it correctly. So whatever the outcome of this experiment, I'm very happy with their service, and their product; B through to D sound awesome, and are more or less the same gauge as an E through to G!

Now, a lesson for those of you with single piece rear-loading bridges...take the freaking saddle off before you try and put the string through. I had to physically brace my feet against the body to pull the string through, and that's where I believe the damage was done. Must've trashed the core. Trying to fit such a thick string through the back of the bridge and over the saddle was just a silly idea. The angle it had to travel was too steep, and physically warped/bent the string which, I suppose, explains why the resulting note was just loaded with overtones and enharmonics and was generally FCUK'ed. When it came to taking the F# off, I removed the saddle and sure as anything it slid right through.

I'm still waiting on the replacement string, but now that I'm better prepared to fit it I'm hoping I'll have happier things to tell! And of course there will be pics and sound clips \m/


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## knuckle_head (Aug 18, 2008)

7deadlysins666 said:


> Start with the mic centered at a speaker like usual, then slide it a little to the right, and then tilt the mic towards the center of the speaker. This simple trick added a LOT more clarity to our live sound.



Good advice - another tidbit would be to get a direct feed from the bass. More about my opinion on the benefits below.



chimp_spanner said:


> ...what the hell kind of bass do I need to use a 175 gauge string? My crappy diamond series bridge struggled with the 138 F# they made me. I'm not getting anything thicker than a 140 in there



It isn't the bass - it's the bridge hardware. Even a thread-through bridge will work if you're willing to do a bit of careful modding, but the best solution is a drop in bridge where the final gauge is immaterial. 

To make your bass .175-friendly you'll have to use a reamer or rat tail file to enlarge every hole to your final gauge size, but no more than its thickness. A ball end is .25" (D'Addario's might be smaller) so you have the ability to ream out to about .184" and have enough meat left to hold back the ball end.



chimp_spanner said:


> I'm still waiting on the replacement string, but now that I'm better prepared to fit it I'm hoping I'll have happier things to tell! And of course there will be pics and sound clips \m/



Glad to hear good things about a supplier - I'm looking forward to your success with this.



Strictly 7 said:


> If you use a double tapered low B string (.130 gauge) you should be fine to tune down to Ab, I don't think the low F# or G will be missed.



I'd miss the timbre a properly tensioned E or F# brings even if I didn't have the rig to put 20 Hz out there. And direct/FOH is a viable option.

A direct signal is nearly always called for for basses tuned this low, and it's to your benefit to provide to either a studio or stage set up. Most times a studio or club will facilitate or even require it and will likely have better toys for the job. A good DI is way more important than a sub, far cheaper, and a piece of gear you'll never regret owning.

Beauty part of a DI signal is that even if your rig can't do the low frequencies, it will be available to the sound guy/engineer to make use of. The gear for mic'ing a sub the right way is crazy expensive compared to owning a 20 Hz-friendly sub.


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## gaunten (Aug 18, 2008)

blackinfinity, I see you're in sweden like me, you could always check out this site :
Woodo Guitars 
have them send you one of their 7 strings tuned to low F# (or have them set up a 6er to F#, all of their basses are 35" anyways) see if you can get the sustain and tone you want, if not, send it back, they have 14 days purchase on approval (eller som vi säger, "öppet köp") and free shipping within sweden, so you'll have some time to try recording and playing around with it. and if you decide to keep it, it's not more than about 5-7000SEK, depending on model. (you could even get just a 4 string set up for F# because of the 35" scale. 
plus, they are frekkin' hot looking kickass neckthrough instruments, and that's guaranteed to give you some effing sustain


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