# Probing the depths... (experimental DIY madness inside)



## Variant (Jan 14, 2011)

How low can one go? I can't say, but I'm gonna find out. As some of you may know, my experimental extreme electronic project The Surfacing has ventured _*heavily*_ into the implementation of softsampled guitar sounds, and at some point in the process of building these tables of thousands of multisamples, I came to realize that the physical limitations of the guitar & bass themselves really have _*no*_ bearing on what we can deploy from within the mighty box. So, with a little lateral thinking, I give you our latest studio implement, [in Nathan Explosion voice] *The Mariana Bench!*:











The purpose? Simple: Attach my trusty and sonically flexible workhorse of a guitar to a "bench" which could extend the practical scale out to the extreme extent of available string lengths to DI multisamples into the computer for future deployment via MIDI programming/playing.  

With guitar notes, I'll be able to take thinner and, thus, less boomy & excursive strings and make lower notes than ever before. I've gotten down to G0 on the guitar itself, but the practical playable limit is more around A0 with a .125 gauge string and even then, it rattles around a bit.

On the bass side of things, well, We're gonna nab ourselves the .270 gauge  monster of string that Garry Goodman makes and find the limit. I'm already using samples nabbed from a subcontra bass tuned down G#00 for my sub-bass reinforcement... gonna see where we can go from there... or at the least, build a more comprehensive table of sounds to cover the current range.


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## ralphy1976 (Jan 14, 2011)

i am really REALLY eager to ear / see what this experiment will lead you to conclude.

BUT : what if the result is either : 

1 - yep, our guitars are useless piece of junks and you need a "contrabass" scale guitar to do what you want

or 

2 - nothing can give you what you want and you just have to be happy with a JPX...

awesome idea...love it!!!


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## vansinn (Jan 14, 2011)

55" scale.. yup, now we're talking bass.. 

Cool experiment. What's next? a transportable, collapsable rig, with the bass player - sorry, I meant the _sonic pilot_ - strapped in, wearing a Borg device..


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## scherzo1928 (Jan 14, 2011)

this is madness!


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## Explorer (Jan 14, 2011)

Quick set of questions/observations...

Is there a reason to retain the Synapse as the pickup engine at the core? Given that you'll be losing the use of the frets for the lowest notes, I wonder if you might not be better served with some sort of pickups on a rail like on the Rail bass, as well as piezo elements Movable pickup elements would allow placing them into sweet spots a bit more easily, as opposed to being tied to one particular place a fixed distance from one end of the strings. 

I'm trying to think if there's any published data/articles regarding this pickup placement issue on electric hammered dulcimer and autoharps. I believe that no one I know who has worked on those instruments (and, coming from that world, I know quite a few) has ever written the stuff up, but there might be good data from the electric guitar world regarding better placement for different tonal qualities. 

Moving further in this direction, if the idea of fretting is also being abandoned, one could also look at giant harp precedents.....


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## Variant (Jan 14, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Quick set of questions/observations...
> 
> _*Is there a reason to retain the Synapse as the pickup engine at the core?*_ Given that you'll be losing the use of the frets for the lowest notes, I wonder if you might not be better served with some sort of pickups on a rail like on the Rail bass, as well as piezo elements Movable pickup elements would allow placing them into sweet spots a bit more easily, as opposed to being tied to one particular place a fixed distance from one end of the strings.



Consistency... mainly. *All* the other multis have been taken from this particular, wonderfully tight-sounding guitar (well, rhythm, anyway... the warm lead notes were all an Ibby Jem 7WVH) so to keep everything consistent output/tonal wise, that's why. Also, it's just plain easier to bolt the damn thing to the bench and have at it. Originally, I _*was*_ going to get a second EMG preamp & output and integrate it into the bench, then use the quick-disconnects to take the pups to the bench itself and go that route... but again... _*way*_ easier just to bolt the damn thing in.  The resonant qualities of the body & neck of the guitar will be retained this way. Granted, this is only with regard to the *guitar samples*, that is (no matter how low they go). I believe this to be best so when the sampler shifts from, say, C#0 down to C0 (or wherever the switch-over is, guitar-to-bench as a source), there's no weird change in tonality. 

As for the *bass notes*... I'm not sure.  The Synapse actually gets a *REALLY* convincing bass sound on the neck pup with big, low tuned strings on it... so who knows. Might work, might not. We may need to get a separate/bass oriented set of pups & preamp to get the bass notes working on it, and move them around to sweet spots like the Rail Bass. It's definitely stage one so far as that goes. 

As for piezo's: *Covered*.  The Synapse has a piezo system in the bridge so multis of the piezo DI's will be taken as well. 





> I'm trying to think if there's any published data/articles regarding this pickup placement issue on electric hammered dulcimer and autoharps. I believe that no one I know who has worked on those instruments (and, coming from that world, I know quite a few) has ever written the stuff up, but there might be good data from the electric guitar world regarding better placement for different tonal qualities.
> 
> Moving further in this direction, if the idea of fretting is also being abandoned, one could also look at giant harp precedents.....



Uber great idea!  Once we get it stringed up, I'm gonna take the usual articulations: Muted, half-mute, open note, slow & fast variations of those... _*but*_ I will also likely play around with some slaps, harmonics, and now that you mention it, some dulcimer hammer harmonics!  Marco (my partner in musical crime) also suggested we invest in a cello bow to take some multis of bowed subcontra notes... which probably will happen as well.


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## Hollowway (Jan 14, 2011)

Totally cool.


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## technomancer (Jan 14, 2011)

Funky. Sort of reminds me of Holdsworth's baritones but in a pedal steel configuration


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## Variant (Jan 14, 2011)

^
You know, as a younger musician, I could have given a dry fart about Holdsworth had he been presented to me (and my earliest music instructor was a fusion guy that had me into that stuff from the very beginning)... and it's uncanny how much I've arrived at the same places he did to decades ago. I mean, I'd kill for this 38" thing:






Not to mention we're putting wired frets on our guitars (see the SynthAxe, also a Holdsworth mainstay from yore). Marco's got all the computer side working through PureData, and is working with Open Chord on the fretwire system, plus his Graphtech Ghost saddles go on his guitar tomorrow as well. 

Allan was a brilliant explorer, it's no wonder Fredrik Thordendal has used him as so much of a template as well.


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## Variant (Jan 17, 2011)

*Alright kids, Drunken Cybermetal Bob Villa here...* 






*...time for phase one of the Mariana Bench build:*











*
I'm gonna warn you, this thing ain't really pretty. It was meant to be a cheap, efficient solution. In fact, The .270 Octave 00 string will cost more than the bench did overall. You want to see something pretty, look at this:*
















*Important shit first, straight edgers look away at your Crabstance 2011 calendar:*






*Yup, scotch old enough to buy itself.  BTW, this stuff is Amazing. Younger Glenlivit's generally fall in the "Meh, decent." range of things, this is excellent, excellent elixir! *






*Classy crystal glassware is appropriate here.* 











*Okay, on to actual work: The main run of board came directly from the neck blank for Marco (Cadenhead)'s Home Depot Build. Not so forgotten, simply repurposed:* 





*
The actual board length is 72" so there's even more length than I had initially planned. It's a very solid stack of maple, has decent density, and resonates well. It should do the trick.* 











*The first thing that needs to be done, is to add a T-extension at the ass end of the thing to provide a place to anchor the strap hook pins to it:*






*Told you... ugly.*  










*What's Marco doing during all of this you ask? Fappin' to Food Network ladies as usual?*






*Nope, he's diligently grinding notches into his OFR-7 basepate to install the Graphtech Ghost piezo saddles into that will later connect to the homebrew MIDI system we're concocting.*










*Next, I've got to fab up some brackets from angle aluminum to tie the two boards together:*






*Drill some happy little holes:* 






*Holes are drilled for the wood screws:*






*Note how they're offset on the main board so they don't clash when screwed in from opposite sides.* 










*Refill time:*






*A switch to the mighty (but "less special occasion" because of a more realistic price) Ardbeg 10.*










*Line this dog-ass lookin' thing up...*






*...And glue and give it the clamps:*











[CONTINUED NEXT POST]


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## Variant (Jan 17, 2011)

[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST]


*Now, wait for the glue to dry for about a half-hour. What to do? Drink some more? Yup. Make the air duster and WD-40 69? Absolutely:*






_*"How's it going over there mighty Marcoder?"*_





^
*From MAKE MAGAZINE, br00talZ Edition.*











*Alright, waited long enough on this shit. Let's get to getting the Black Oar Of Doom strapped onto this puppy! Took off the strap hook here so I could use the existing holes to lock the sucker down. Got some longer screws with the same gauge and thread pattern to get through the board, and as you can see here I've dropped a couple lengths of small bar stock into the screw holes. They're cut just longer then the hole depths so they will leave a mark on the board where I need to drill the mounting holes. The electrical tape (I used the white tape, because the black tape is always getting used to do all the work) is to keep the pins from falling out and changing me like a lycanthope, into the Ryan that swears a lot.*






*Now, lay the sucker out and mark the holes:*





*
And drill away:*






*I'll admit here that I had to do this twice, as the guitfiddle was not quite far enough back and not straight on with the board.  I'll blame the booze.*










*Well, I somehow forgot to snap a pic of the holes being drilled in the T-extension, so yeah, imagine that with your imagination. Picture the chick from earlier in the thread doing it if it helps.  Anywho, here's the bad boy all bolted in:*






*I hacked the bolts of to length as well... after this pic was taken, of course:*






*Well, that's as far as I got over the weekend. I made a trip to Home Depot today to get some more pieces. I'm going to add a reinforcement plate on the bottom intersection of the two pieces of wood to further keeping it from flexing, and got myself four rubberized feet to make it so I can actually set it on my desk without tearing the surface all up. 










"How are you doing over there, Marco?": *















*Well, to be continued over the course of the week where. Y'all come back now, ya hear! Ryborg, signing off. *


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 17, 2011)




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## highlordmugfug (Jan 17, 2011)

You are awesome.


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## cadenhead (Jan 17, 2011)

At some point, I may post up the pics from my side of the Mad Scientist Lab that is my garage. Stay tuned for that as soon as I figure how to get the pictures onto my computer.


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## ralphy1976 (Jan 17, 2011)

rulezzzz!!!!!


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## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2011)

Love it! I cracked up at the bit about the Glenlivet begin old enough to buy itself. Happens to be a favorite of mine as well.  And I don't know what it is, but I've never met as many scotch drinkers as when I joined SSO.


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## Durero (Jan 17, 2011)

Fascinating project.

Keep us informed about where you get your various extra long strings from. 

Or are you using O4P for all of them?


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## adrock (Jan 17, 2011)

cool idea.

now who is the gorgeous red head?? i must know....


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## jwatso89 (Jan 17, 2011)

Variant said:


>



+1 for the Glenlivet  i visited their distillery on vacation last summer and it was one of the coolest tours ive ever been on 

very pumped to see how this build turns out too aha should be brutal!


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## Daken1134 (Jan 17, 2011)

Maybe im misunderstanding the concept but.... this sounds like a multi string version of a Motograter, you know the instrument that the band from texas created. it sounds awfully similar.


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## Skanky (Jan 17, 2011)




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## Variant (Jan 18, 2011)

Daken1134 said:


> Maybe im misunderstanding the concept but.... this sounds like a multi string version of a Motograter, you know the instrument that the band from texas created. it sounds awfully similar.



Whoa... just checked that out. Crazy/cool!  But, no, not at all like that. It's basically a fixture to extend the scale length _*temporarily*_ so lower tunings can be achieved, whose notes are recorded for later deployment via a sampler. Here, I made a fun and informative illustration of the process. It should clarify:


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## Variant (Jan 18, 2011)

Also a few updates from Marco's front:











Wires... on frets... 












> Fascinating project.
> 
> Keep us informed about where you get your various extra long strings from.
> 
> Or are you using O4P for all of them?



No, just when we play around with the .270 for the sub bass stuff. First thing is to mess with "guitar" notes (ones well below the bass range that is) and I'll just be using the Super Long Scale D'Addario XL nickelwound bass strings for that. That's what's been on the Steiny for the A0, and D1 strings.











> cool idea.
> 
> now who is the gorgeous red head?? i must know....



Susan Coffey.


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## Daken1134 (Jan 18, 2011)

OoOoOoOoK i get it. sorry for the misunderstanding. you never heard of motograter before? yeah they used that thing live and they blew the shit outa nearly every PA they would play on


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## adrock (Jan 18, 2011)

Variant said:


> Susan Coffey.



mmmmmm, she is fucking gorgeous.



is definitely what should be happening...


and i'm curious, what's up with the wires attached to each fret?


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## Skanky (Jan 18, 2011)

scherzo1928 said:


> this is madness!


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## Variant (Jan 18, 2011)

Daken1134 said:


> OoOoOoOoK i get it. sorry for the misunderstanding. you never heard of motograter before? yeah they used that thing live and they blew the shit outa nearly every PA they would play on



Yeah, they seem like an interesting band. I believe the term "rape the P.A." might have been exchanged amongst the three of us a few times.  I'd like to hear sounds of that contraption in isolation. From the songs that I can find out there on the interwebz, I can't really pick it out from the bass. 

Sleepytime Gorilla Museum also have a pretty interesting instrument they call the sledgehammer dulcimer, which is essentially the lowest strings out of a piano strapped up on a board and played fretless-style like the Motograter. Their pickup module design is simple/clever. I think I may nick the idea a bit.  









> and i'm curious, what's up with the wires attached to each fret?



The frets are being wired up for MIDI, like the old SynthAxe was. The advantage is that you get essentially zero latency with the frets being wired, as the system doesn't have to listen to a small portion of the beginning of the waveform to determine what note is being played. It knows what note you want to play based on what fret is being pressed against. The piezos in the bridge will only provide volume data to open/close the envelopes that trigger the MIDI note on/off messages notes (though the audio signal *will* be used to track vibrato and pitchbends, but that happens on a parallel circuit. 

Marco's building pretty much the whole system himself. The Piezos are from Graphtech, and OpenChord are helping us out with a bit of the circuit side, but the vast majority of it is all the electrical mastermind himself. We're trying to get as much of it happening in the digital realm... i.e. getting the raw data & signals into the computer, then using software to make things happen. It should be faster and more flexible this way... especially when it comes down to mating the very complex sampler side to the instrument side.  The cables coming out of out guitars might be crazy looking but all the more "cybermetal" that way.


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## adrock (Jan 18, 2011)

wow, fucking sick. that's gonna be a very nice setup for triggering midi notes. can't want to see/hear it done.


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## shadowsea (Jan 18, 2011)

lol i've been working with the name "probing the depths" for my metal project. saw post name, and immediately thought someone was releasing material under said name haha! nice build tho, holdsworth is an amazing player.


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## avenger (Jan 19, 2011)

Incredible stuff here! Cant wait for updates.


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## leandroab (Jan 19, 2011)

The flowchart ftw!

hahaha


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## scherzo1928 (Jan 19, 2011)

finally had time to take a look at this. I must say I aprove of drinking scotch and building stuff. Or in my case drinking maestro tequilero and making mah templates, or the tradition of beer after using the table router.


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## Skanky (Jan 20, 2011)

scherzo1928 said:


> finally had time to take a look at this. I must say I aprove of drinking scotch and building stuff. Or in my case drinking maestro tequilero and making mah templates, or the tradition of beer after *doing anything*.





Fixed.


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## Variant (Jan 21, 2011)

*Skynet sympathizer here once again. Updates on the progress of the mighty Mariana Bench follow.
*


*Day 1: *

*I'm a little behind schedule here, wanted to get this done Monday or Tuesday. Oh well.  Here's my pile o' bits collected from Home Depot for the next few steps: *














*Of course, first thing I do is flip this thing over and screw into the ass of it.



Because of the way The Oar is bolted in, it puts a moment on the joint between the two boards and I don't have faith that my hack brackets and glue-work will be enough. *






*Behold! Big ass plate. Shit's not gonna flex now.* 















*Next step, put on some rubberized feet. They're actually doorstop bumpers. The actual furniture feet they had weren't tall enough and were comprised of really hard plastic that most likely would scratch up my workstation table. This shit worked out dandy!*






*Here's the front two. I hacked off the insides and pressed them together as they were way wider than the width of the board. Also, worked out nicely!*


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## Variant (Jan 21, 2011)

*Day 2: *

*Color time. Decided on a indigo blue stain. Figured it fit The Surfacing color motif as well as the whole ocean-is-blue thing. Now, I am NOT a fan of anything involving painting or staining. Don't even know why the fuck I added this step. Music is selected to help me through this. Good band from Canuckistan, The Unravelling. Not teh br00talZ or anything. Kinda remind me a bit of Course Of Empire meets Karnivool kinda thing. The vocals get a bit DEP at times too.* 






*Coffee will be needed as well. Since I am out of espresso beans, but have some nice Costa Rican light roast, I'm going to use the French press... which means switching the setting on my grinder down to Viggo Mortensen:*






*The elixir of continued consciousness:* 















*The result? Surprisingly not bad. Mind you, my laundry room where I had to stain it isn't the best location to snap pics:*











*Yay, handskis for the whole Smurf village!*















*Well, tomorrow, I'll get onto cleaning this thing up and getting The Oar bolted back in so I can work out exactly what I'm going do do about the block that the headpiece will mount on. *


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## Skanky (Jan 21, 2011)

Regardless of how this project turns out, your taste in fine liquor and coffee is top notch.


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## scherzo1928 (Jan 21, 2011)

Not quite the scale I would have chosen, but it seems to get the work done.


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## Variant (Jan 21, 2011)

^
 Alright, I'll let you tap Hayden over me... but there's no denying Patricia Arquette is 'Medium' and Viggo Mortensen's perpetual stubble farm is coarse. 










*Logo Draft:*














Also, whoever added _*'the audio pink sock'*_ tag:


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## highlordmugfug (Jan 21, 2011)

This just gets awesomer and awesomer. 

As was the motograter and all of the various instruments built and used by Dan in SGM/Idiot Flesh.

I'm not sure how similar the sledgehamer dulcimer is to it, but there's also the Slide Piano Log:
Ever see a Slide Piano Log? - TalkBass Forums
















I've been wanting to make some sort of really long, ultra fat string low tuned monster but I can never get the drive to actually do it. 


So you'll just have to make yours and give us all sorts of awesome songs with it for me. 

EDIT: And I'll throw in a pic of the motograter too as noone has yet.




That Slide Piano Log used piano strings, the Motograter used Industrial cable, and you're using Octave+ super strings.


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## scherzo1928 (Jan 21, 2011)

Variant said:


> Also, whoever added _*'the audio pink sock'*_ tag:


 
AHAHAHA, that's the best tag ever.


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## Variant (Jan 21, 2011)

> I'm not sure how similar the sledgehamer dulcimer is to it, but there's also the Slide Piano Log:



Yeah, I believe they've referred to it as *both*... yup, from Wikipedia:

_*'...a custom-stringed bass instrument referred to as the Sledgehammer Dulcimer (or, alternately, the Slide Piano Log)...'
*_




> I've been wanting to make some sort of really long, ultra fat string low tuned monster but I can never get the drive to actually do it.



Actually, as I mentioned to someone who inquired through a PM, I plan to be making mulitsample libraries available (Kontakt, Direct Wave, or Halion ready) for both the bass and guitar samples. The guitar library will be called *16xGravity* and will be comprised of raws, with lots of multis for heavy layering potential, and the subcontra bass library will be called (unsurprisingly) *Mariana Trench* and will have raws, as well as specially processed library with Waves processing pre-applied for optimal use in mixes. So, if you're a bit computer savy, and have the software, you can fire at will. 






> AHAHAHA, that's the best tag ever.



I'd be inclined to agree with you but someone tagged the thread as 'invest in andrex' over at mg.org!


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## highlordmugfug (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't have the software right now, but I may try it out at some point. 

To be completely honest, I really just want an instrument I can play with a baseball bat. Ala Jim Breuer on The Joe Pesci Show, only musical.


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## Variant (Jan 21, 2011)

^
I'll talk to Marco about MIDIfying a baseball bat then. 






 Actually... no, I won't. He'd probably fuckin' do it... get us even more off course.


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## highlordmugfug (Jan 21, 2011)




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## highlordmugfug (Jan 21, 2011)

Variant said:


> From the songs that I can find out there on the interwebz, I can't really pick it out from the bass.


I concur wholeheartedly. I wish I could have seen them live. 



> The bat is being wired up for MIDI, like the old SynthAxe was. The advantage is that you get essentially zero latency with the heads being smashed, as the system doesn't have to reveal to a small portion of the brain of the dude to determine whose head is being smashed. It knows what bones you want to break based on what body part it's being pressed against. The piezos in the handle will only provide volume data to open/close the envelopes that trigger the MIDI note on/off messages notes (though the audio signal *will* be used to track fractures and bonebends, but that happens on a parallel circuit.



Brutal. \m/


In all seriousness though, I can't wait to see/hear this in action.


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## Necris (Jan 21, 2011)

Variant said:


> Actually, as I mentioned to someone who inquired through a PM, I plan to be making mulitsample libraries available (Kontakt, Direct Wave, or Halion ready) for both the bass and guitar samples. The guitar library will be called *16xGravity* and will be comprised of raws, with lots of multis for heavy layering potential, and the subcontra bass library will be called (unsurprisingly) *Mariana Trench* and will have raws, as well as specially processed library with Waves processing pre-applied for optimal use in mixes. So, if you're a bit computer savy, and have the software, you can fire at will.




I can't wait to hear this thing.  I'll definitely be checking it out when you get those sample libraries created.

Consider bowing it (provided you own a bow) and making some samples of that as well, it could be cool, after all what people really want are bowed 00 octave notes, they just don't know it yet.

[Youtubevid]DToHsLPbqEU[/Youtubevid]

Also I may need to build myself a slide piano log one of these days.


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## scherzo1928 (Jan 21, 2011)

haha, that's awesome, but I'd love to actually see them play something besides making cool sounds.
Every year when we go buy a christmas tree, I go in the back seat strumming the chord they use to tie it to the car and play hall of the mountain king.


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## Gemmeadia (Jan 21, 2011)

I was just waiting for those guys to break out in a djenty riff haha


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## technomancer (Jan 22, 2011)

It's the weekend, let's hope for more cool progress pics


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## Variant (Jan 23, 2011)

> I can't wait to hear this thing. I'll definitely be checking it out when you get those sample libraries created.
> 
> Consider bowing it (provided you own a bow) and making some samples of that as well, it could be cool, after all what people really want are bowed 00 octave notes, they just don't know it yet.



I thought I mentioned it earlier on (maybe not), yes, we _*are*_ planning on getting a bow to take bowed note samples. 



> haha, that's awesome, but I'd love to actually see them play something besides making cool sounds.



Kronos Quartet are awesome.  I saw them a while back at the Scottsdale Performing Arts Center. That 'Music For Fences' thing is epic!  They actually are a bit less _*"experimental sound art"*_ than in the above particular performance and are all skilled string players. Their standard fare leans more towards *"ambient chamber music"* if you will. When I saw them, they were mixing their usual classical instruments with MIDI triggers that were articulated by passing their hands through laser/IR beams.









*Day 3:*

*Updates from Studio 902... Here she is all stained up. Still not pretty, but, ugly with color anyway. By the way, I spent several hours on Friday night relocating my interface from the desktop to the rack area in the desk, and rewiring the whole thing, in order to make enough desktop space for the beast:* 






*Logo printed out on cardstock. Cost a whopping $0.89. Looks great, actually, cam pics be damned:*






*And here's parts haul number three:*





*
Got a bunch of screws, hardware, and wood pieces for the headpiece block, a piece of acrylic and some fancy screws to cover & house the logo, and a couple of stings (.070, and .095) to mess around with scale lengths / tensions / tunings... and, oh yeah, manbooze (gin & scotch)!* 






^
*Here's a rough of what we're going to do with the headpiece. Gonna try and set the ground bus bar up on bolts fed from the bottom of the movable block then use two nuts (top and bottom) to lock it in at the appropriate height dependent on the the block location. I've also got some stainless bar stock to make a zero fret, and a secondary fret to take hammer on articulations.  Gluing will have to take up the duration of tonight, as well as cutting a channel in the ass-end board to clear the instrument cable emanating from The Oar's sound-pooper.*








* Also, the mighty Marcoder is finished wiring up all the frets on the Beta MIDI axe last night, and is connecting all 24 of them to a ribbon cable that will act as a jumper to the board and chipset that will handle it as such!*
























*A very busy Ryborg, signing off... *


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## SirMyghin (Jan 23, 2011)

I still do not have a clue what is being build here but it looks neat. 

Also french press = win. Who is the 4th on your coffee grinder, it looks like a man.  (extra fine)


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## Variant (Jan 23, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> I still do not have a clue what is being build here but it looks neat.



Reference the flowchart on P1.  





> Also french press = win. Who is the 4th on your coffee grinder, it looks like a man.  (extra fine)



Click on my profile.  Narcissism joke.


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## BlackMastodon (Jan 23, 2011)

Variant said:


> Click on my profile.  Narcissism joke.



Epic build though.


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## Explorer (Jan 23, 2011)

Just as a further suggestion...

There are quite a few different tonalities available depending on where one applies the driver/pick/bow/hammer to the string. Be systematic about it. 

Also, if one is using a pick or a striker, using one with a softer surface (felt padding on a striker, a felt autoharp pick) will give you more of a fundamental, and less transients on the attack. 

I'm not saying that it's bad to go to one extreme or the other, of course. I might use an autoharp/zither on a recording with a huge amount of pick noise, because it sounds so extremely acoustic in a way I can't duplicate with effects. 

Good luck with your sonic explorations, friend.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 23, 2011)

Variant said:


> Click on my profile.  Narcissism joke.




I see.


So the gist of it is you are making a flat, fretted, piano to trigger soft synths Via midi? I just don't quite see the purpose I guess, definitely cool though.


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## Variant (Jan 23, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> I see.
> 
> 
> So the gist of it is you are making a flat, fretted, piano to trigger soft synths Via midi? I just don't quite see the purpose I guess, definitely cool though.



No, you're looking at it backwards. The MIDI will be triggered by guitars (amongst other things, keyboards, pad controllers, or simply just through programming the piano roll in the arranger), the bench is for creating sounds to _*load into*_ the softsampler. The bench itself is not a playable instrument per se, as the scale is being extended arbitrarily, and thus the fret locations are mooted (I probably would have taken off the neck if it wasn't a neck-through instrument. ), and thus, it can _*only*_ make one note (or chord, if more than one string is put on) at a time... but that's precisely how you take multisamples. I think the comparisons to the sledgehammer dulcimer, motograter, etc. might be confusing that.












> Just as a further suggestion...
> 
> There are quite a few different tonalities available depending on where one applies the driver/pick/bow/hammer to the string. Be systematic about it.
> 
> ...



Excellent suggestions there. Since I'm generally just going for guitar articulations at the moment (open, mute, hammer on, harmonic), that stuff is kinda secondary. I'll _*definitely*_ delve into the more sordid details of those sorts of instruments before I have a go at recording samples in such a way.  I haven't the slightest how to use a cello bow, so that'll be an interesting learning experience to begin with!  But, after seeing that Kronos Quartet video and some of the octobass (a subcontra double bass of sorts), I really want to get, at least, that articulation.

The cool thing about doing this via softsampling (and this may give you guys more of a glimpse into _why_ we're taking guitar to the medium so seriously), is that you can do all sorts of things like layer for instance. If, as you say, felt brings out more of the fundamental, and a hard striker makes more of the attack, the two can _*EASILY*_ be layered so they're both happening at once _*OR*_ the envelope on the striker sample could have it decay very quickly after triggering, leaving the body of the soft-struck sample to ring out on it's own. This simply cannot occur on the instrument itself.

Another, *VERY* powerful aspect of Kontakt, in particular, is it's velocity layer morphing capabilities:






This allows different articulations to be laid across the velocity rage, and the software morphs (not simply crossfades ) between the two (three, four, etc.) based on where between the articulations you are at. For instance, this works exemplary for having a full palm muted articulation at velocity 1 and a full sustained articulation at 127 (the top end of the MIDI range) so as you move to the middle of the range, you get a lighter "half- mute" sound, less as you go up, more as you go down.  With the aforementioned soft vs. hard mallets, the soft hits could be put at the bottom, and the hard ones at the top... so, the harder you pick (or the more you crank forward a pedal or other CC) the more it morphs into the hard attack. Even then, an additional keyswitch (too) could kick the sampler to combine the two as mentioned before as it's depressed. The possibilities are daunting, frankly.


----------



## Explorer (Jan 24, 2011)

I'm trying to remember the name of a current resynthesizer I looked into, which could use synthesis to duplicate the evolution of a sampled sound. Maybe I'm thinking about Alchemy...

Anyway, I remember back in the '80s when we were first looking at whatever that piece of software was on the NeXt workstation, which could do an analysis and then perform some sort of genetic algorithm and comparison in order to use 2-operator FM to recreate the sound. We had worked out a way to separate certain elements, and to develop the sound further by breaking the main sound down into simpler elements, and then using different FM stacks to model those sounds. It was hideously complicated, although it did generate some amazing FM sounds and textures. 

I was also hoping to get my hands on that sample to formant sequence software used by Yamaha when they were developing the F-seqs for the FS1r. 

----

Your talk about doing velocity crossfades on samples just reminded me about using velocity to do patch morphing on some synthesizers. I'm probably a dinosaur in terms of my thinking on synthesis versus sampling, but who knows? Maybe you'll find the Alchemy software useful....


----------



## scherzo1928 (Jan 24, 2011)

Variant said:


> I have a go at recording samples in such a way.  I haven't the slightest how to use a cello bow, so that'll be an interesting learning experience to begin with!  But, after seeing that Kronos Quartet video and some of the octobass (a subcontra double bass of sorts), I really want to get, at least, that articulation.


 
If you buy a bow, dont forget to buy some rosin. Which is just the resin we use to make the strings actually move with the bow. If you dont use any, you wont make any sound at all. Since you are using some thick ass strings, I recomend you buy some medium to thick rosin.

Other than that, it works quite a bit like playing guitar. Apply more preassure with the bow, and the strings vibrate harder. Play closer to the bridge and it's like using your bridge pickup, play towards the neck, and you get a nice mellow sound like with a neck pickup.


----------



## SirMyghin (Jan 24, 2011)

Variant said:


> No, you're looking at it backwards. The MIDI will be triggered by guitars (amongst other things, keyboards, pad controllers, or simply just through programming the piano roll in the arranger), the bench is for creating sounds to _*load into*_ the softsampler. The bench itself is not a playable instrument per se, as the scale is being extended arbitrarily, and thus the fret locations are mooted (I probably would have taken off the neck if it wasn't a neck-through instrument. ), and thus, it can _*only*_ make one note (or chord, if more than one string is put on) at a time... but that's precisely how you take multisamples. I think the comparisons to the sledgehammer dulcimer, motograter, etc. might be confusing that.



There we go, all clear now. Now I understand and this is cool.


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## Variant (Jan 29, 2011)

*Day "Why The Fuck Is This Taking So Long?":*









*Well, responsible like callings (primarily actual freelance work for other people) ate up a lot of my last week, so I didn't get back on to things until last night.  Marco, on the other hand, got some more of the hand wiring on the Beta MIDI axe:






Blue tape on the guitar makes shit look all "prot0typez iz serious business". 















First, as I was tired beyond tired, a stop off at La Bottega for a cuppa from the lovey ladies that work there. From what I can determine "La Bottega" is Italian for "sweet donk". *













*Well, back to the shop and on to work. Wait, not yet.  I'm gonna warn you readers, especially those with marginal or above woodworking skills: This is gonna get really graphic. Like holocaust documentary bad. The goal of this project to was to keep it uber cheap, and since we couldn't find anybody with a router, I went at it with a gin 'n' vermouth powered Dremel**

*Important Note: The Surfacing does not recommend, in any way shape or form, the combination of drinking and using power tools... and always use eye protection! We always use eye protection when drinking and using power tools!






*Let the horror commence:*






*Goatse!* 






 *Meh, it was an ugly piece of wood to begin with. I'm really just approaching it in the same manner Joan Rivers' plastic surgeons do her, I'm pretty sure.  I'm guessing they use the same bit and number of martinis. Anywho, some stain is a bit of a savior here:*














*Oh, As for the mighty Macroder? He spent the better part of the evening trying to apply the voice commands, "fuck", "shit", "cunt", "stupid whorebag" , and the like to make it Ubuntu work. It didnt. *












*
Anywho, more tomorrow from tonight's [hopeful] conclusion.*


----------



## Variant (Jan 31, 2011)

*Day Of Wreckining:*









*Saturday night's alright for fighting... or drinking and seeing a show if you're a non-violent, fun time blokes like us. First we be chargin' our creative lazors at Shannahan's in Vancouver Seen here is the pretty wicked instrumental metal band, Odin. Not super original or anything but really good players who were tight as a nun's whatsit.* 














*Headed back to the shop, where we get back to work. The movable headpiece is all that really needs to get done at this point. I clamp it into place and measure out the mounting holes.*






*...And drill 'em up.*






*We decide that the bus bar is too long to really mount on the block well, do I have Dremelmaster (seriously, rumor has it that he trims his manhedge with it) Marco cut it down:*






*Shuwheat!* 






*Basically, it has two bolts that it slides down onto, that are fed up through the bottom of the block. A duo of bolts on the top, over some washers, locks the bolts in place, and two above it are used to adjust the headpiece height. To move the scale length, you simply unscrew the block, clamp it at another location and drill in some new holes. BTW, I asked Marco if we should nip off the top of the mast-like bolts and he said, "Nah, it looks more dangerous this way". *






*Here's the logo finished and mounted. I'm not gonna waste your time. This is freakin' boring enough of a picstory as it is. Went like this: Cut the blank out of acrylic, drilled the corners of the acrylic, cut the logo from the card stock using the acrylic piece, lined everything up and pounded in the the ornamental finishing nails.* 






 *Aye-eat. Let's give this thing a test run. Bolt it in place.*






*String it up and tune it to something at random (it was extremely late, and I wasn't about to hook up any gear).*






*Booooiingggg!!!*



















*There you go... done... finished... tired... Celebratory scotch was had!*


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## Variant (Jan 31, 2011)

*Additionally Here's some glamor shots taken today of the abomination at my studio at home:*

























*
The plan this week to to get onto taking to test samples to play around with in a few mixes to figure out what scale lengths and what gauges yield the best results for which notes. It'll probably be a while here, being as busy as I am, until I get some roughs out for y'all to listen to. In the meantime...
*


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## scherzo1928 (Jan 31, 2011)

Bwwooooooooooooooooooowwwww.

Actually looks kinda cool.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 31, 2011)

adrock said:


> mmmmmm, she is fucking gorgeous.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lets your MIDI trigger better as it knows what note is being played without having to detect it. So you cut a step before the trigger.


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## cadenhead (Feb 1, 2011)

Manhedge! 

I wasn't aware of your knowlage of my 'grooming' practices.


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## Variant (Feb 1, 2011)

^
I said it was a rumor.  I dunno, should I believe this guy?:


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## cadenhead (Feb 2, 2011)

Variant said:


> ^
> I said it was a rumor.  I dunno, should I believe this guy?:



It's hard to say. He seems like a real 'strait shooter', if you will.


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## cadenhead (Feb 2, 2011)

WTF???


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## Variant (Feb 2, 2011)

> _*<POST GRACIOUSLY DELETED BY MODS>*_



 Is the above spambot worried about Richard Simmons damaging his throat after a tonsillectomy?


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## Daemoniac (Feb 2, 2011)

^ Indeed it is! He was worried about Natalie Portman as well in the Black Swan thread


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## Variant (Feb 3, 2011)

*^
Now that distraction is gone, back to the thread's proper maturity:*

















Well, found a little time to plug in the bench today and play around. Works like a charm!  Needless to say, I'm extraordinarily happy with the result, even beyond my hopes. It's tuned with a .095 to E0 (an octave below a 4-string bass), for those interested in the sordid details. Remember, this is for guitar stuff. Bass comes later. 

It's definitely a different beast than the guitar itself, but that was to be expected. There's some _*very*_ precise playing technique required to keep things from getting out of line, because of the high string excursion... and the point on the bridge area where you palm mute effectively is _*VERY*_ small... but then I observed all these things when dealing with the A0/G0 sting on the guitar itself.  

Beyond that, I found myself holding my finger on the end of the head to allow it to ricochet off my skin instead of the frets! I'm going to try raising our cool "nut-mast" contraption, and subsequently lowering the bridge (too keep things close to the pickup) to eliminate any rattle. 

Keep in mind all we need to do is capture is a set of "ideal scenario" notes, and it's all locked forever into the sampler to come out perfectly *EVERY TIME* one triggers a note via MIDI. In fact, I'm using different plectrums to pick the open note articulations versus the muted articulations as they sound better that way, so a change from open note to muted note would also be a change from a thick rounded pick, to a thinner snappy pick in the middle of a riff. 

The .125 will be messed around with to go to C0 at the current 46.5" scale length, as well as to get an earful of what some higher notes sound like on shorter scale lengths with a bigger string. I'm just getting started here, kiddies.


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## Prydogga (Feb 3, 2011)




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## highlordmugfug (Feb 3, 2011)

It just gets kickassier and kickassier.


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## Variant (Feb 5, 2011)

*Nothing big, just playing around with different gauges. Here's a pic of a .125 @ C0 (16.35 Hz fundamental):
*





&#8206;*...of which, Marco pointed out something pretty interesting: If you closely at the pic, you can see the waveform shape(look closely within the string vibration area)! 

Before anyone asks, the red tape it to mark the "12th fret" harmonic, which occours just below the 4th fret at this scale length. Obviously, my tuner won't actually recognize a C0*.


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## 13point9 (Feb 5, 2011)

if you see it you'll shit bricks... haha

looking epic man, hopefully where ever you play will have subs that can take it


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## cadenhead (Feb 5, 2011)

13point9 said:


> if you see it you'll shit bricks... haha
> 
> looking epic man, hopefully where ever you play will have subs that can take it



I doubt it, but we will figure something out (I hope).


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## Kroaton (Feb 11, 2011)

God I can't wait to hear this thing for some reason. Great build dude.


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## idunno (Feb 11, 2011)

This looks awesome.

Side note, why not just screw pickups to the contraption? Why bother bolting down the guitar in the first place?


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## Variant (Feb 12, 2011)

*^
From the first page:*



Variant said:


> Consistency... mainly. *All* the other multis have been taken from this particular, wonderfully tight-sounding guitar (well, rhythm, anyway... the warm lead notes were all an Ibby Jem 7WVH) so to keep everything consistent output/tonal wise, that's why. Also, it's just plain easier to bolt the damn thing to the bench and have at it. Originally, I _*was*_ going to get a second EMG preamp & output and integrate it into the bench, then use the quick-disconnects to take the pups to the bench itself and go that route... but again... _*way*_ easier just to bolt the damn thing in.  The resonant qualities of the body & neck of the guitar will be retained this way. Granted, this is only with regard to the *guitar samples*, that is (no matter how low they go). I believe this to be best so when the sampler shifts from, say, C#0 down to C0 (or wherever the switch-over is, guitar-to-bench as a source), there's no weird change in tonality.
> 
> As for the *bass notes*... I'm not sure.  The Synapse actually gets a *REALLY* convincing bass sound on the neck pup with big, low tuned strings on it... so who knows. Might work, might not. We may need to get a separate/bass oriented set of pups & preamp to get the bass notes working on it, and move them around to sweet spots like the Rail Bass. It's definitely stage one so far as that goes.


----------



## Semi-pro (Feb 12, 2011)

Variant said:


> *If you closely at the pic, you can see the waveform shape(look closely within the string vibration area)! *





13point9 said:


> if you see it you'll shit bricks... haha



Seeing it instantly made the pic at the same time beautiful and creepy 

This thread is awesome!


----------



## Skanky (Feb 12, 2011)

Variant said:


> *Nothing big, just playing around with different gauges. Here's a pic of a .125 @ C0 (16.35 Hz fundamental):
> *
> 
> 
> ...





What you could be seeing here is the sympathetic wave form between your vibrating string and the fluorescent lights in your workshop which actually strobe at 60 hz.


Have you actually tried to do a harmonic at the "12th" fret location (exact middle of the string) and actually watch the string vibrate? You should be able to see it vibrate on BOTH sides of the 12th fret (which should remain stationary).

Very cool stuff.


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## SirMyghin (Feb 12, 2011)

Skanky said:


> What you could be seeing here is the sympathetic wave form between your vibrating string and the fluorescent lights in your workshop which actually strobe at 60 hz.



Strobe lights are really fun for that stuff.


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## idunno (Feb 13, 2011)

I get it! Missed that part on the first page. Looks great, you have links to your other musical endeavors you mentioned?


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## Asrial (Feb 13, 2011)

And in before "Will it djent?" 

But cool project. And I don't know if it was mentioned before, I just skimmed through all the thread, but how exactly would your MIDI guitar mod work?


----------



## Variant (Feb 13, 2011)

Skanky said:


> What you could be seeing here is the sympathetic wave form between your vibrating string and the fluorescent lights in your workshop which actually strobe at 60 hz.



Could be, there's like five incandescents (track lighting FTW) plus whatever Hz rate my bright-ass HD monitor spits out at. Either way, the string moves _*s-l-o-w*_ when struck. It's kinda amazing that it doesn't sound more "pulse-like" in practice. 



> Have you actually tried to do a harmonic at the "12th" fret location (exact middle of the string) and actually watch the string vibrate? You should be able to see it vibrate on BOTH sides of the 12th fret (which should remain stationary).
> 
> Very cool stuff.



 Ha ha! Just tried that... that's kinda neat!










> Strobe lights are really fun for that stuff.



 We're actually thinking about picking up an adjustable strobe for our next little project (we're building at functional scale prototype of a fan driven infrasub) in order to dial it in, didn't think to use one in conjunction with the bench. It actually _*may*_ be necessary, with the bass setup in particular, as I'm already having a bit of difficulty with the tuners picking up the 12th fret (C1) harmonic.




> I get it! Missed that part on the first page. Looks great, you have links to your other musical endeavors you mentioned?



Not really, LOL. We're both really terrible at documenting things, I just pulled my phone camera out on a whim and that got us to documenting it. 



> And in before "Will it djent?"



The sound isn't really djent... let's call it _*"beyondjent"*_! 










> But cool project. And I don't know if it was mentioned before, I just skimmed through all the thread, but how exactly would your MIDI guitar mod work?



The Marcoding unit might have to chime in on the more technical aspects this one, as it's more his gig. I proposed the idea of wiring the frets like the old SynthAxe and hybridizing it with a traditional pitch-to-MIDI system to track the pitch bending (acting only as a pitch wheel, if you will), but he's taken to the sordid details of implementation. 





^
He's got an Arduino board on the way, which has an asston of inputs on it, so hopefully the fret-to-MIDI data can be calculated on board the guitar and passed back to the computer via USB, Firewire, or the like. We've also talked about the possibility of putting force sensors on the strings (either at the nut, or at the bridge) themselves to track the pitchbend data. We'll likely try everything in the eventuality, and keep what works best. 

Myself, I've been brainstorming palm mute detection methodologies, which has been woefully left off guitar-to-MIDI systems for too long.  I believe that learning to play MIDI guitar should probably be somewhat different than guitar itself, but those two particular aspects (bending at the string, and muting at the bridge) really need not be abandoned. If anything, finding new ways to CC-control/keyswitch should _*EXPAND*_ the instrument's abilities rather than limit it.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 14, 2011)

cant wait to hear the product, keep up the good work!


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## in-pursuit (Feb 14, 2011)

i am looking forward to hearing how this turns out. can we get a quick taste preeez?


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## cadenhead (Feb 14, 2011)

Asrial said:


> But cool project. And I don't know if it was mentioned before, I just skimmed through all the thread, but how exactly would your MIDI guitar mod work?



Ryan is mostly right. Wired frets, piezos (via Graphtech). Right now, though, this system isn't going to be practical for anyone other than me. I will be having to use 2 computers, my Digi 002 interface, and the Arduino Mega2560. All the dirty details are still being worked out still though.


----------



## Variant (Feb 14, 2011)

^
Exactly... my bad: The piezo's would open/close the gates for _*note on/off*_ messages as well (dur



), which should be more-or-less instantaneous.


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## Skanky (Feb 14, 2011)

ZOMFG! I was going to post a picture of the various waveforms for harmonics, then ran across this article!


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## xMaNgOxKusHx (Feb 14, 2011)

Been following this for quite some time now, so badass. Keep it up!


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## SirMyghin (Feb 14, 2011)

Variant said:


> Could
> 
> We're actually thinking about picking up an adjustable strobe for our next little project (we're building at functional scale prototype of a fan driven infrasub) in order to dial it in, didn't think to use one in conjunction with the bench. It actually _*may*_ be necessary, with the bass setup in particular, as I'm already having a bit of difficulty with the tuners picking up the 12th fret (C1) harmonic.



You can tune with style then.


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## Variant (Feb 15, 2011)

> ZOMFG! I was going to post a picture of the various waveforms for harmonics, then ran across this article!



Wow, I think I've actually read that before... still quite comprehensive in scope. 

The harmonic divisions of the scale in that article reminded me that _*another*_ cool thing that we'll be able to do with the MIDI is temporarily resign notes to arbitrary positions on the fingerboard, giving us access to other tuning systems and scales on a conventional fingerboard, or even keyswitching between them with pedal switch.  The simplest example is to remap the board for a 1/4 tone scale (like *M.A.N* uses, for instance, pictured below) by stretching a whole octave worth of notes over the 24-fret range and having each fret increment up the neck be one-half a semitone as opposed to one semitone. It only can get crazier from there. 













> You can tune with style then.



Indeed. Windmill the hair at 10.3 Hz. 

BTW, here's the latest delivery. The biggest nickel wound string I can easily procure (that I know of). If this busyness relents, on she'll go:













*Also, here's a little sample of the kind of reading we do here at Camp Surfacing:*


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## scherzo1928 (Feb 15, 2011)

Variant said:


> The simplest example is to remap the board for a 1/4 tone scale (like *M.A.N* uses, for instance, pictured below) by stretching a whole octave worth of notes over the 24-fret range and having each fret increment up the neck be one-half a semitone as opposed to one semitone. It only can get crazier from there.


 
That is extremely awesome then.


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## Variant (Feb 19, 2011)

*What is this now?* 






*What you are looking at is this:*









*What is it?*

Well... it's a temporary strobe tuner Marco put together out of the Arduino board and a bright green LED in about ten minutes.  

*Why?*

Well, as I suspected, all the tuners available to use gave up when the .145 went on.  Wouldn't even pick out harmonics, 12th or 24th fret.  

The LED was set to blink at 27.27 milliseconds, to sync with the required 13.75 Hz of the *A00* note being achieved. Worked like a charm.  It's a little tricky to get synced (you tune the note in the dark to the flashing LED until the sting doesn't look like it's vibrating anymore as the oscillation puts the string in the same place when the LED comes on) as the string vibrates in a slightly elliptical pattern, and therefore moves around bit as it vibrates. I then checked the harmonic against the A0 on the Bösendorfer piano in Kontakt 4 to verify by ear that I was on point. 

Tomorrow, we're getting another breadboard and to accommodate a different chipset (the Arduino is purposed for the MIDI system, not to mention is a bit overkill for this purpose) to make a permanent one with a rotary encoder to select different notes. 

This project keeps getting more and more insane. I love it!


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## cadenhead (Feb 19, 2011)

That's right kids. PAY ATTENTION IN SCIENCE AND MATH CLASSES. You never know when you're going to need science to bring the br00talz...


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## SD83 (Feb 19, 2011)

This forum never ceases to amaze me... love that tuner!


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## cadenhead (Feb 19, 2011)

Actually, I have to admit, I didn't think it was going to be that easy. 

It literally only took a battery, a few wires and a LED. The code was less than 10 lines...


----------



## scherzo1928 (Feb 19, 2011)

This is probably the coolest project in the history of the luthiery section.

I mean, just look at the tags!


----------



## Skanky (Feb 19, 2011)

Curious - what's the point in going down to 13.75 hz when there are pretty much no speakers in existence (well, you know what I mean) which can reproduce that wavelength?


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## Kroaton (Feb 20, 2011)

To make whales djent.


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## Variant (Feb 25, 2011)

Skanky said:


> *Curious - what's the point in going down to 13.75 hz when there are pretty much no speakers in existence (well, you know what I mean) which can reproduce that wavelength?*



*First:*

Your statement is not necessarily true. After all, there is *Bag End*, who's Infra line of subwoofers employ a special processor to maintain proper perceivable levels of sound (to compensate for the Fletcher-Munson effect wherein it requires an increasing amount of sound pressure for the wave to be perceived by the human ear as equal as the frequency diminishes) throughout the operating range, as well as phase alignment of the slow moving, low waveforms... they feature an *8 Hz* floor: 







_*NOT*_ to mention the Eminent Technology TRW-17 fan driven infrasub capable of flat response down to *1 Hz*:






No, this is _*not*_ a fan... well, it is, but it's purposed to achieve the same result a speaker does: To move air to create a fluctuation that your ears and body perceive and pass on to your brain. It is installed into a home or venue, through a "port" cut to the size of the fan, and utilizes your attic or basement as a baffle.





*Second:*

We at Camp Surfacing are well aware of the limitations of audio hardware possessed by the average listener and/or venue, and while the above specialties are some interesting stuff that might be worth exploring in the future to enhance the live experience, our music is designed to work on regular hi-fi audio systems (though a decent sub is recommended) and the notes being played will absolutely be audible. 

Thinking that a note on a guitar is invalidated by its fundamental frequency being inaudible is not understanding the acoustical mechanics of a guitar/bass-guitar/cello/piano/tuned-string-pulled-over-the-length-of-a-board/etc. The electric guitar, in particular (even in standard tuning), is largely an instrument of harmonic overtone content, *especially* when the sound is picked up by high-output magnetic pickups, amplified through multiple stages of distortion, filtered by the amplifier circuitry & the speaker-to-mic interaction (low end roll-off is typical of all these points in the chain) and, generally even more selective high-passing and compression at the mixing and mastering stage. 

I decided that it would be worthwhile to sonically illustrate this with an audio file for the sake of, again, clarifying the plausibility of this project, as well as making it clear to sevenstring.org'ers, as most of us have, at some time or another, encountered a misunderstanding by others of the role of our detuned and extended range instruments:

>>>*Example*<<<

Listen to the above example. What you will hear are three notes (it's the exact same note actually), an open B1 (a.k.a. "baritone B", or "seventh-string B") which you all here are familiar with, whose fundamental is 61.74 Hz.

The first time you hear the note, there is *NO* equalization applied at all. The fundamental and any potential subsonic transient noise is allowed through. 

The second time you hear the note, there is a 90 Hz high pass filter with an extremely steep slope applied, cutting out the fundamental, and again, any subsonic transient noise. 

Hear much of a difference?  Probably not. Here's why:

The third example is just a narrow bandpass filter set to peak at 62 Hz and roll off around that tone. 
^
*THAT* is the the sound of 62 Hz on a guitar. Not much, is it? In isolation, you can hear that it does have some roundness to it that probably adds some warmth to the guitar sound, but to be honest, the low end content of guitar tones is pretty weak and not very focused or dynamic, so doing things like passing it off at 90 Hz is pretty typical, as it generally lets the bass guitar, which is much more effective and pleasing to hear, to produce those frequencies, through the mix on its own. High passing keeps the two from occupying the same space which generally causes unpleasant masking, potential phase issues, and eats up headroom in the mix while adding essentially nothing. Keep in mind that the bass guitar, unto itself, is doing more to push the lows at it's first-order overtone (61.72 Hz) than it's fundamental (30.87 Hz) which rolls off, even at your subwoofer. 

Like with any wide-frequency spanning guitar and bass tone, the notes being captured by the Mariana Bench are being valued for their harmonic overtone content, which is enhanced in a variety of ways including compression, distortion, equalization, and even specialized overtone enhancing VSTs, namely Waves MaxxBass. This creates guitar and bass sounds that actually reside in-or-near their usual frequency ranges in the mix, but the timbre of the sound itself is _*significantly different*_ due to the dynamic response and overtone content of the long waveform string, which is oscillating at half-, and even one-quarter the number of cycles per second. What you hear from a B00 note and a B1 note is quite different, even if both are passed off at 90 Hz. Psychoacoustically, it gives the impression of lowness even if the fundamental (or even first- and second-order) overtones are not really there or can't be heard with the human ear. Actually this vid for Waves MaxxBass here explains it all pretty well:







*Thanks for your time. Class is dismissed. Pretty girls can stay after for some "extra credit". *


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## Jontain (Feb 25, 2011)

^ Wow....

Makes me realise how little I know about sounds.... lol


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## SirMyghin (Feb 25, 2011)

Jontain said:


> ^ Wow....
> 
> Makes me realise how little I know about sounds.... lol



Whenever you see a guitarist whining abou needing more bass now you know


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## Variant (Mar 3, 2011)

Doh. 






That's okay... I've got a metric asston of sample taking to do before I can even install the pickup on my guitar and get to dicking with the thing. Kinda did up the tuning chart for Marcoder's strobe tuner and realized, *"Holy fuckballs, I added a lot of notes to the range of things!" * I got my work cut out for me. 













*
Gonna kill some stuff this weekend (for all three music projects) so the borgs from 'Make: the br00talz edition!!!!!!' are gonna be busy:*


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## SirMyghin (Mar 3, 2011)

I hope too many people weren't in the room with you when you achieved the brown note.


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## Variant (Mar 3, 2011)

^
Hasn't happened yet... That issue is from... the future!!!


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## Variant (Mar 5, 2011)

*"Let the tuning commence!"*














*Here we have Marco putting together the not-really patented Browntime Subcontra Strobe Tuner. It's basically the Arduino board contained in a nice lil' box, with a USB lead out of it, and a gooseneck with an ultra-bright LED to do the strobing:*






*The USB powers it and links it to the computer itself where the mighty Ryborginator can change note values depending on what the Bench needs to be tuned to. The flavor of the day is B00 (15.43 Hz).* 






*Position it as such:*






*The lights really need to be off for this to be effective.*












*Want to see it in action, kiddies?  Yeah, you fuckin' do! Here you go:*


*
Watch as the string appears to stop, in a bent position, at around 0:17. Pretty cool, eh?*


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## cadenhead (Mar 5, 2011)

Variant said:


> *Here we have Marco putting together the not-really patented Browntime Subcontra Strobe Tuner. It's basically the Arduino board contained in a nice lil' box, with a USB lead out of it, and a gooseneck with an ultra-bright LED to do the strobing:*



Actually, given the price of current strobe tuners, I built mine rather cheap given the price of the Arduino and related parts. Even if the Arduino is way over powered for what is needed.


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## Variant (Mar 6, 2011)

*N.M.I.D. (New MIDI Interface* Day):*
















*Weeee... Got a call from the G.C., dees came up in-stock so they canceled my backordered unit and I picked it up.  

Don't ask how it is, as while the Oar is relegated to the Bench, this is a really cool looking blue, sheetmetal box.*

*It also does virtual guitar, amp, effect, and synth modeling, per Roland's usual fare.


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## scherzo1928 (Mar 6, 2011)

So uhh, I'm kinda constipated... when are we hearing the brown note?


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## SirMyghin (Mar 6, 2011)

Nice work with the strobe, I have no idea how to make stuff like that so your buddy marco = my hero of the day


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## cadenhead (Mar 7, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Nice work with the strobe, I have no idea how to make stuff like that so your buddy marco = my hero of the day





Just wait until I finish up my MIDI project (fingers crossed that it actually works)...

It would be nice if I had a mill machine or CNC.


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## Hollowway (Mar 7, 2011)

Been a while since I checked in on this thread. You are a mad scientist! I approve on both a geek and metal level.


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## Miek (Mar 7, 2011)

NEVER STOP POSTING IN THIS THREAD


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## Asrial (Mar 7, 2011)

Is there sound on that video at all? O-o I hope not, I'm in the middle of a class, and I just saw it. Is it triggered to explode within minutes?


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## zale144 (Mar 7, 2011)

Brilliant craftsmanship! Congratulations!


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## ixlramp (Mar 8, 2011)

Variant said:


> _*NOT*_ to mention the Eminent Technology TRW-17 fan driven infrasub capable of flat response down to *1 Hz*:



It's good to see the rotary woofer again. What a great idea! A rotary woofer can, in a sortofakindofa way, reproduce 0Hz. The blades do not oscillate and the result is a steady stream of air.





Effect of rotary woofer.


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## Winspear (Mar 14, 2011)

Just come across this - fascinating! 

I was a bit confused about the involvement of a LED for tuning until I saw that last post. So, the light flickers at a rate set by you, and then you tune the string until it's vibrations are in sync with the lighting, thus making it appear still? Very clever  

I can't wait to hear your results.


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## loktide (Mar 14, 2011)

how the fuck did i miss this?

coolest build project thread i've seen this year on ss.org


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## loktide (Mar 14, 2011)

scherzo1928 said:


> So uhh, I'm kinda constipated... when are we hearing the brown note?



+1


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## SirMyghin (Mar 14, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> Just come across this - fascinating!
> 
> I was a bit confused about the involvement of a LED for tuning until I saw that last post. So, the light flickers at a rate set by you, and then you tune the string until it's vibrations are in sync with the lighting, thus making it appear still? Very clever
> 
> I can't wait to hear your results.



Strobing something is pretty common in vibrations analysis, it is awesome stuff too. It can be used to identify which frequencies something vibrates at by finding out when it looks to be standing 'still' (every flash it is in the exact same position, meaning they have the same frequency). 

This was a backwards application in a way, but very awesome. 

Now you know, and Knowing is half the battle.
(GGG IIIII JOOOEEEEEE)


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## Explorer (Mar 14, 2011)

I love the Browntime Subscrota Strobe Tuner, just as I did a double-take with the cover of Make with the Mariana Bench. 

I'm glad this project is still moving forward.


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## Variant (Mar 17, 2011)

*Update time, you still-evolving bags of carbon & water!!!: 










03.11.11 was the pre-anniversary of the Ryborg Aural Corruption Unit's day of assemblage in the distant future... and as such, The Mighty Marcoder took him to the nearest terrestrial "Red Lobster" to dismember some of those squatty, breaking down, seafloor cockroaches!:*






















_*"Do the running man over a faggy Euro-synth break now, assholes!"*_








*Inspired a tee shirt design, actually:*











*...and from the ladee, I got the following:*






*A Bhut Jolokia (1,000,000 Scoville unit) chili plant, and a bag of Kopi Luwak coffee that has to pass through a marsupial known as a civet's colon before getting roasted. Double brootal!* 










*Okay, enough of the immature mocking of scene kids protecting us from the hordes of invisible ninjas and showing you my critter poop coffee & whatnot... On to the project!: 

After a successful test run that made my subwoofer+monitors basically sound like the heavy metal version something I won't mention in light of current world events, I got on to sampling last night. Holy crap, it's tedium incarnate.  I kinda expected as such, but once I started piling on the samples, it became as clear as a sixth-order overtone that just the open notes needed to populate the sampler enough for an eight-cycle round robin by six-guitar-layer caché requires no less that 30:00 mins. of continuous recording time.  That's only open notes.*





*
...And that doesn't include any throwaways.  With the string tuned as low as it is now (A00), a good number of notes get some transient rattle coming through as the note decays if not picked just right. I believe some of this will get easier as I go up the scale as I didn't experience it near as much when testing out B00. The muted notes take a little less time as they don't sustain forever-and-a-day, but again, because the string is so extremely slack, it takes a really, really careful and distinct technique to get a good attack+chug... it's almost like I'm pulling a slight pinch harmonic to stabilize the string. The palm-mute point, too, is really in a narrow sweet spot and pressure level. I've simply resolved to taking a shit-ton of samples and weeding out the good ones. Once I'm on a roll, I can generally rack off a bunch of good ones. *

*The savior here is, once I cherry-pick out all the best and load them into the sampler, when I play the notes via the MIDI system at a later point in time, the notes are always perfect every time out. MIDI requires a somewhat cleaner playing technique, but once you're over the tracking threshold, one doesn't really need to dig in just right to get perfect notes... they'll just pop out of the box that way.  Anyway, if this is gonna get done over the course of the next month, I'm literally going to have block out a couple hours of time a night to sample away and curate them after into files. The payoff, of course, is not having to sound like any other band on Earth!!! *










*
Onto Marco's side of the project:

He's had to rethink the wired fret system a bit and switch to a divided fret format... and in light of that, he's taking a slightly different approach as opposed to pulling all the frets and installing cut ones... at least for the prototype. What's gonna happen is a special die will be made to form sort of "fret-caps" to cover the existing frets:*






*There will be just enough room behind the cap segments to put in the necessary (and tiny) diodes between the segments and the wire runs down to the circuit board in the body of the guitar. Insulating material will go over the existing frets before the segments go on *









*^
Here you see the neck fully taped up for prepping the frets for their piggy-backing elements. *





*^
Some 3M Super 77 material that was tried as an insulator that didn't stick stickly to the fretwire.  We're gonna have to try some other ideas to get something to take. Any suggestions from any nerd-like entities out there would help the borgs out! * 











*Anywho, I'm probably going to go a bit incommunicado here for a while as there's really nothing that's going to be the least bit interesting about me posting screenshots of waveforms over-and-over again as I collect samples, so this will turn to the Marco show for a while. Back to tedium it is for me...*


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## cadenhead (Mar 17, 2011)

Variant said:


> *^
> Some 3M Super 77 material that was tried as an insulator that didn't stick stickly to the fretwire.  We're gonna have to try some other ideas to get something to take. Any suggestions from any nerd-like entities out there would help the borgs out! *





Actually, that was 2 separate test runs with the 3M Super 77 and some 2 mil thick Mylar. The Super 77 didn't stick at all to the frets. The one on the left there was what happened AFTER I pulled the Mylar off. No residue at all. The fret on the right has the Mylar still stuck to it, but as you can see, there are a lot of air bubbles since the spray is not very even at all.

I've got a few other ideas brewing. I just won't have time to get to them until my weekend.

By the way, anyone know what I can do with 2 mil Mylar? I have a bunch of it now that this probably won't work for the insulation on the frets. I was told that the Super 77 was about the only thing that would stick to Mylar, but it turns out it didn't stick to the frets.


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## Skanky (Mar 17, 2011)

Why not just rough-up the frets a bit and use some non-conductive paint? Then you could cover them with whatever conductor you needed . Just be careful not to scratch the paint when installing the triggers.


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## Skanky (Mar 17, 2011)

Oh and by the way, I have some Naga Jolokia peppers right beside me as I type this.

Not only that, I have some Kopi Luak at home (sent from Indonesia by a friend of mine).

Great minds think alike it seems.


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## SirMyghin (Mar 17, 2011)

* Kopi Luwak eh?


You sir are braver than I in your quest for coffee utopia.
*


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## Skanky (Mar 17, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> * Kopi Luwak eh?
> 
> 
> You sir are braver than I in your quest for coffee utopia.
> *





It's the same thing bro.


Kopi Luwak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## cadenhead (Mar 18, 2011)

Skanky said:


> Why not just rough-up the frets a bit and use some non-conductive paint? Then you could cover them with whatever conductor you needed . Just be careful not to scratch the paint when installing the triggers.



That's the next experiment actually. I've been researching the paints and primers that I might be able to use. The big question is weather the paint will be able to take the abuse before lifting. We shal soon see, I suppose.


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## SirMyghin (Mar 18, 2011)

Skanky said:


> It's the same thing bro.
> 
> 
> Kopi Luwak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



I know, however I have never ventured that far down the coffee path, and have no intention to. Hence the comment. Something about pre-digested coffee rubs me the wrong way.


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## Skanky (Mar 18, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> I know, however I have never ventured that far down the coffee path, and have no intention to. Hence the comment. Something about pre-digested coffee rubs me the wrong way.





Oh never mind. I thought you were the one that posted the pic. D'oh. I really gotta lay off the crack pipe.


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## Variant (Mar 18, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Something about pre-digested coffee rubs me the wrong way.



Awwww... look at these guys, though. 













According to Google image search, these are civets as well:






If they poop coffee, I'll take 'em.


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## SirMyghin (Mar 19, 2011)

Variant said:


> According to Google image search, these are civets as well:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'll take them even if they don't


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## Variant (Apr 3, 2011)

*Excessive sample taking, anyone?* 






That's one note, just two articulations. Though I did overdo the mutes a bit.  Mainly because of the aforementioned issues in getting keepers. _*Not*_ looking forward to weedinng them.  More updates coming in 2014.


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## Jontain (Apr 5, 2011)

wow that is a hell of alot of samples


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## idunno (Apr 6, 2011)

Lets hear some!!


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## kylendm (Apr 6, 2011)

Does not understand concept. lol


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## loktide (Apr 7, 2011)

kylendm said:


> Does not understand concept. lol



this is what toontrack's superior drummer is to drums


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## Variant (Apr 7, 2011)

kylendm said:


> Does not understand concept. lol



I guess the underpants gnomes were of no help? 

Here's the deal: I've gotten this question a lot, and when I describe the project, generally about half the people I talk to still don't understand. Part of it is understanding how a softsampler works, which is apparently alien to a lot of guitarists.  Most of you are familiar with Superior Drummer. That's a softsampler... albeit one of a closed architecture, and focused on drum hits as opposed to notes created by instruments, but there are egads more out there for all sorts of instruments: Pianos, organs, violins, choirs, symphonies, etc.

What we're doing here is creating a softsampler (using Native Instruments venerable Kontakt as many, many, many others do) that will allow us to play notes (via whatever MIDI enabled device we choose... I'm going with guitar because it looks freakin' cool) that could only be physically created on an instrument with an unreasonably long scale (the scale length on the bench is 46.75" at the moment, if I remember correctly). 

I don't think I could boil it down much more than that. Those who don't understand, might want to explore what softsamplers do (they're not synonymous with synthesizers)... it's probably a good idea to know simply as being a musician goes.


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## thewildturkey (Apr 7, 2011)

I think this is a brilliant project.

For me, I spend a lot of time on trains, a decent guitar softsampler enables you to compose entirely from the laptop, without horrible guitar sounds.

The softsampler, coupled with an impulse loader, amp sim and Superior will allow people to throw together ideas entirely on the laptop, on planes/trains or whatever.

Keep up the good work!


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## 3amsleep (Jul 19, 2011)

Variant said:


> *
> 
> 
> 
> *


*

"Every sound you hear is made by a slutty Latina girl moving her hips. Sound waves enter your ears and are processed by your brain, this is called Psycho-acoustics..."

Best vid evah.

Also, this post needs to be updated NAO!*


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## thewildturkey (Aug 16, 2011)

Any news on this project? I was hanging to see this one finish


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## Skanky (Aug 17, 2011)

I feel like I've been left a little "high and dry" on this one as well. Lol.


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## Explorer (Aug 17, 2011)

Oddly enough, the Mariana Bench made me look again into the current state of the art of resampling (still not ready), then the formant/sampler software used to create sounds for the Yamaha FS1r, before causing me to reinvestigate ambient sound generators and signal chains I've logged in sound exploration notebooks, built up from different effect pedals and rack units. 

I *almost* fell back into using synths, especailly because one can do so much with physical modeling software like Fauna (here's a sound sample). which models a hypothetical vocal tract. However, I'm inspired enough to look at unusual ambient effects which I can do with what I have on hand.

In any case, I look forward to more information about the Mariana Bench.


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## Variant (Oct 3, 2011)

thewildturkey said:


> Any news on this project? I was hanging to see this one finish





> I feel like I've been left a little "high and dry" on this one as well. Lol.





My apologies to you guys for not progressing along with this project anywhere near as fast as you (or us, frankly) would like to.  Life has been _*very*_ busy and somewhat difficult for me of late, and the project, while certainly *NOT* abandoned, is shelved for a bit. 

I recently broke up with my long time girlfriend and moved in with my bandmates up here in Vancouver, Washington, and am still getting settled in, and dealing with some money and employment issues the best I can. A lot of that is assisting and providing graphic design services for an acquaintance of mine with an upstart web development company. Pile on top of that the other band that I'm in (with Marco), Tripnol, is devouring 99% of our music time getting the sordid details for that together as well with shit-tons of practice and rehearsal time to get us up and ready for our first show (which is in two weeks).  The plan is to get back on this project (and a few others) as soon as that stuff is dialed in. The experimentation is likely to get a dry run in that context as well, so both bands/projects will hopefully benefit from what we're doing. 




_*All has not totally ceased though:*_ 







_*Here is Marco's Ibby EX in our shop ready to get the GK3 system on it which we're using to dial in the guitar-to-MIDI end of things. In the background, you can see the foam letters cut out for our cloth covered, strobe stage sign for Tripnol, which can be seen only when the strobes are kicked on.  *_






_*I'll try to have something more interesting the next time I bump this thread! *_


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