# Need advice on bad deal with a forum member.



## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

Hello everyone. I would like advice from my fellow guitar players on how to proceed with a trade that went bad on this forum. I have discussed this with max of metal and he and other mods have given me the green light to make this issue public and see how the forum feels the issue should be handled. 

Now as a disclaimer the person I had a bad dealing with is a very well respected member of the forum. He has many successful trade and a good reputation. He has stellar feedback which makes this all the more disturbing. For now I would like to leave his name out of it and have this issue be only looked at based on the facts and not anyones friendship or non friendship to this person. Just know he is a well respected member who you would never think would be so much as hard to deal with. I am currently not aware of how to take screen shots of our dealings but I am waiting for information on how to do that so for the time being I will simply tell the story as I know it and try to get feedback on how to move forward.


So some of you may have seen I had a Carvin SH550 up for trade. Well the other day I came across a guitar in the for sale section that I thought I would like and I contacted the seller on this forum to see if he would be interested in a trade. He was unsure and asked for a few days to think it over. I agreed. A few days later I contacted him again and asked if he thought about the trade. He replied that even though he had absolutely no use for the guitar I wanted to trade him he would do it anyhow. 

Now he had this guitar for sale on this forum and on ebay and both of his descriptions state that the guitar was in mint, unplayed condition and had absolutely no signs of wear. We agreed to trade and we shipped and both waited. 

The day it arrived me and my mother were waiting for the UPS truck to arrive as we were going to do some errands. Mind you Im a disabled single father living with my parents. Not exactly my ideal situation but that is why my mother was and is usually always present. She knew I was particularly excited about this guitar and she came with my to my room carrying the case after I had removed it from the box.

Now Mind you the guitar was packed poorly. It was in a case. An SKB hardshell that is actually in the shape of the guitar and is not rectangular. The guitar was placed in the case and had absolutely no packing material in the case to immobilize the guitar whatsoever. It had the ability to move a good inch and a half front to back which this person denies its ability to do. Now mind you this is a pointy guitar and very little protection is provided for the main point in this case. That guitar unsupported was placed into a box with one end having a very small amount of shrink wrap for cushion and the other end nothing. The box was simply closed and barely fit in the box. Packing peanuts where used on each side of the long neck portion. Most of you should know that packing peanuts are the worst way to support and protect a guitar via shipping. 

So fast forward to opening the case. I opened the case with my mother present. She knew I was excited for this guitar and wanted to see it. She was their for the first time of me opening this case. I opened it and we both were taken aback by how good the guitar looked. I pulled it out of the case and turned to show her and the first words out of her mouth were. " I thought you said it was in mint condition?" She pointed and I looked and there was a decent sized chip missing from the tip of the long point of this particular instrument. Not only was it chipped but the finish was also cracked significantly. At that very moment my heart sank and I placed the guitar back in the case and contacted this person i did the trade with. After sending that message I went to the guitar again and found more issues. This time I found a nut that had been filed down and after tuning the guitar up I find that the High E string frets out on the first fret and wont ring out. Trying to look for the problem I also discover that the first 6 sharktooth inlays are lifting out of the fretboard significantly. You can press them in and they pop right back out. So I contact the seller again on both these issues. I offer to send pictures documenting the issues. 

He replies that he feels it is really weird as he sent it in perfect condition. Claiming that the guitar was only out of its case once since he had it. So I go quickly and take the best shots of the damages that I could and send them to him within minutes of his request. 

He replies stating that he has talked with one of his mod friends and they both feel that the inlays were due to temp and humidity issues and that he knows that the guitar was shipped in perfect condition. He completely dismisses the chipped paint. At this point I have asked that we simply trade guitars back and call it a day. If its was shipping damage he can file a claim and get his money. I dont think thats possible due to how poorly it was packed but thats what he said he would try and do. He refused this request and states that he knows that the guitar was perfect when He sent it and that if I want to go to guitar center and get a estimate to have the inlays glued back in and he will pay for it.

I found this unacceptable and stated that even if I had the inlays glued in it wont repair the damaged paint. And it wont replace the nut and do a full set up on the guitar. He replied that I had 2 options.

1. Take the guitar in to a shop to get the inlays checked out and repaired

2. File a UPS claim for damages.

Now at this point im getting frustrated and dont understand why he is being so hard to deal with. My thoughts were, I got a guitar in damaged condition and its not as described. Even if it was UPS damage it was packaged poorly by him and I didnt understand why I had to suffer because of that and wait to see if 1 UPS even honors the claim and 2 how long that would actually take while he has my near perfect instrument I gave him. It just didnt seem fair. 

So I admit Im not doing the best job at keeping my cool. Im using caps at certain times wanting to know why he is saying he will only pay for the inlays and wont give me my trade back. Now mind you, I have no reason to lie. My reputation is just as good as his on other forums. I may be newer here but im not new everywhere. I have 100% positive feedback in all my transactions. 

Longs story short this person has made it clear that he feels I have fabricated this story because I had traders remorse and simply want my guitar back. He has stated that in his opinion the guitar was not damaged in shipping and that it looked like I smacked it on a coffee table and wanted him to pay for it. Now the reason why he states that he didnt think it happened in shipping was because I said that I could not find any chips of paint in the case. But this case is a V shaped case and the paint chips could have been swallowed by the lining. Now mind you this is a completely baseless accusation on his part. He insists that the guitar left him in perfect condition. That it was only out of the case once and then stayed packed away until he sent it to me. 

So for him to tell me that he feels I did this then he is accusing me of 

1. fraud
2. Damaging the guitar on purpose
3. Lying about the damage to get my property returned.

If I was going to rip this guy off I wouldnt have sent my guitar to begin with. Even if I got my guitar back I would still be out $70 shipping just to have my guitar take tour across the country. This wasnt about getting my guitar back. It was about being fair. And my thoughts were that even if he DID repair the guitar its not what we agreed on. We agreed on his new guitar for my more expensive used guitar. My thought was the item arrived not as described so the deal is off. He isnt having it and is not accepting any other alternatives but for him to fix the inlays and file a damage claim. And again that claim is bogus as he packed it poorly. 

This person seems to me to have a poor memory. I question whether the guitar was infact in that condition because he also stated that the guitar came with "case candy" I brought up the fact that the only thing in the case was a small bag with two keys and 4 dessicant packs and he feels im lying about that as well. 

So I ask you all if this was you what would you do?


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

He claims he has pictures proving that the guitar was in perfect condition. Mind you time has passed since he took those pics. He did NOT inpect the guitar before sending it to me. These are my pics showing the damage. The damage he claims either I caused or it was caused by UPS. I feel that since he packed the guitar poorly that he should have to be the one to take it up with UPS and wait and see if they will compensate him. He feels I just want my guitar back. I asked if he had anything else he would trade instead as I dont care about my original guitar I just believe in what is fair. Should I really have to wait for a UPS claim when he packed the guitar poorly? And we agreed on a trade based on the condition that his was NEW condition. Not damaged and not repaired. Here are my pictures.


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## SpaceDock (Nov 4, 2012)

I think he should refund you and pay for the return shipping. He is obviously at fault and ups won't cover damage caused by poor packing. He should be feel lucky you're not completely outing him right now.


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 4, 2012)

He packed it poorly. If I were him, since it's obviously not mint condition, I'd either trade back and apologize that it was damaged in shipping (because I wouldn't knowingly ship something in a condition other than described) or pay to fix the inlays plus some extra cash or gear to make up for the paint chips (I don't normally care half of a damn about paint chips, but it's not cool to not mention them if they're there).


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 4, 2012)

The bottom line here is, if UPS denies the claim, that means that the guitar was not properly packaged, and the shipper is then responsible for any and all damage. I once shipped a brand new Jackson PC1 to a guy... It was damaged in shipping, and UPS denied the claim. I coughed up $2000 immediately and kept the broken guitar. It's not a pleasant experience, but it's the honorable thing to do.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

Here is my thoughts. 

He says the guitar was perfect when he sent it. And that fine. Ill give the benefit of the doubt on that. But if its packaged poorly, case or no case and it arrives damaged then I dont see why I would be the one to have to wait for compensation from the shipping company. This whole ordeal seems to be based on the premise that he feels I have fabricated not only the story of the damages but actually went so far as to damage the guitar intentionally to back my claim. Or he has said that possibly I damaged it myself while inspecting it and want to get out of it. He says it looks like it took a hit to a coffee table. Both of these accusations are completely baseless. He is accusing me of lying and of fraud for absolutely no reason. He claims that my stories have changed that originally I said It couldnt have happened in shipping and now im saying that it was. For the record I never said that it couldnt. I fully disclosed that I couldn not find the missing chips of paint in the case so I thought just maybe something might have happened on his end and he forgot. Or maybe someone handled the guitar and he didnt know about it. I NEVER thought I would catch this much grief over it. I swear on my mothers life, my 3 year old daughters life and my own that I did not in any way shape or form damage this guitar and everything I have told this person about my experience to be the absolute truth. And I simply dont feel he has presented a fair solution to the dilemma. This isnt trading remorse. Its just about being fair.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> some extra cash or gear to make up for the paint chips (I don't normally care half of a damn about paint chips, but it's not cool to not mention them if they're there).




I get what your saying here. Compensation in some way. But the perspective im taking on it was we agreed my excellent condition guitar for his brand new unplayed condition guitar. The reason i was getting rid of my trade to begin with was actually because I did put a ding in it and chips bother the crap out of me when i do them. That is why I knowingly did a trade straight across for a guitar that was of lesser value. It was ALL based on condition. And the agreement never included a damaged and subsequently repaired guitar. My thoughts were that the terms of the agreement were not met for whatever reason and therefore the agreement should be dissolved and respective properties returned. But to be told that I am simply suffering buyers remorse and that It looks like I smacked it on a table? with what proof?


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## VBCheeseGrater (Nov 4, 2012)

It seems a bit odd that those chips shown in the pics would happen in a hard case - perhaps i haven't shipped enough guitars, but seems the hard case would protect against stuff like that. How do those kind of chips happen in a padded hard case?


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 4, 2012)

I agree that those do not look like shipping-damage chips.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

VBCheeseGrater said:


> It seems a bit odd that those chips shown in the pics would happen in a hard case - perhaps i haven't shipped enough guitars, but seems the hard case would protect against stuff like that. How do those kind of chips happen in a padded hard case?




This particular case is not very well padded in the area where the chips occured. The guitar can move back and forth in the case. And with enough force it theoretically should be able to hit the metal frame where the case closes. The odd thing is that this case has a piece of scrap rubber or rubber tread from a carpet that was wedged in that area to prevent something like this from happening. But even that rubber is on the hard side. If you have ever seen how UPS treats things its not impossible. This is why I asked the previous owner if 1. anyone could have had access to the guitar from the time he took the pictures to the time he shipped it. He states no. And 2. I asked if he ever had more that one of these or knew someone who had one and maybe they got mixed up. This he also stated was not a possibility. So honestly, I cannot say exactly how it happened. The ONLY thing I can say without a doubt is that I did not damage this guitar intentionally or unintentionally. And I dont want to speculate on the previous owners integrity and statements. He claims he had no hand in it and that no one he knew possibly had a hand in it. I know for sure I had no hand in it. So the only explanation after that is shipping damage. And with the way it was packed UPS will most surely deny the claim. And lets say they do. We all know how long that takes. And they will take the guitar and its packing to investigate. All the while I have nothing to show for the trade. I simply felt and still feel the the quickest and fair way to handle this is to either give me back my guitar in the condition I sent it or offer something else in trade as what I got wasnt what we agreed on. And even if the guitar I did get were to be repaired, we struck a deal for a new guitar. Not a repaired one. And he still has no basis to accuse me of wrong doing. Its merely his wishful thinking.


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## Corrosion (Nov 4, 2012)

It happens when you work at fedex, see thousands of boxes a day, and throw(fragile = hurl violently, lol, jk) them on to the conveyor belt to meet a deadline that is unrealistic and at times cruel... if you only knew how many boxes come into the plant damaged, or the retarded way people pack things(i saw a guitar packed in a duffle bag once, that was obviously broken as the bag was ripped so you could see inside), you wouldn't be a bit surprised. 
Good luck, and I hope it gets resolved... this is not a situation I would want to be in.

Oh, and 100% they won't accept your claim, as it's the shipper's fault and insurance does not cover improper packaging, which they have a specific document detailing the only way it is acceptable to be packed for it to be insured.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I agree that those do not look like shipping-damage chips.




And I agree with you too. But I also dont like pointing the finger and calling someone a liar. And I know honestly is what he has built his reputation on and so have I. My own mother is my witness. And as much as my mom loves me she aint about to lie for me over a guitar.


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## rectifryer (Nov 4, 2012)

Regardless a UPS claim needs to get filled out ASAP. 

After that your options will become clear. He said, she said is not relevant as it holds no weight with getting your money back.


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## Thyber (Nov 4, 2012)

you guys should've shipped insured. would've made this situation obsolete.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Nov 4, 2012)

I used to work at RPS (now Fed Ex Ground i believe) loading trucks. One thing that some of the low life scum type employees would do is put packages on top of the trucks, and in the morning follow the truck until the package fell off and steal it. Wierd stuff happens to packages i guess


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## Corrosion (Nov 4, 2012)

VBCheeseGrater said:


> I used to work at RPS (now Fed Ex Ground i believe) loading trucks. One thing that some of the low life scum type employees would do is put packages on top of the trucks, and in the morning follow the truck until the package fell off and steal it. Wierd stuff happens to packages i guess



Lol, we had a guy get about 7 iPads when they first dropped with a similar trick...


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

Thyber said:


> you guys should've shipped insured. would've made this situation obsolete.




We both shipped insured. The problem is an insurance claim wont hold up if its not packaged properly. This guitar clearly wasnt. And the question remains, how am i responsible for the shipping of a package when It was shipped to me. 



rectifryer said:


> Regardless a UPS claim needs to get filled out ASAP.
> 
> After that your options will become clear. He said, she said is not relevant as it holds no weight with getting your money back.



I agree with you. But as far as Im aware the claim is the responsibility of the person who did the shipping not the recipient. As im aware I should comply with the shipping company as far as giving the goods back but as far as im aware its up to the person who packed the guitar to file the claim as they know how they packaged it and have the paperwork for the shipping.


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## Corrosion (Nov 4, 2012)

Sort of. You both have to file a claim with UPS, if I am not mistaken.

And here:http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/claims/hlp/damage_process.html


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

This Video should be live in about 10 minutes. Its downloading right now. This is to briefly show how the guitar can move in the case and how dangerously close it comes the the metal edge of the case. Now imagine a forceful impact, or repeated forceful impacts. 

ZOOM0037 - YouTube


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## technomancer (Nov 4, 2012)

Corrosion said:


> Sort of. You both have to file a claim with UPS, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> And here:http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/service/claims/hlp/damage_process.html



That page is borderline misleading. Having been through the process before I can tell you the receiver can report the damage but the shipper has to actually file the claim that leads to UPS inspection etc etc. The receiver can not file a claim.


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## Corrosion (Nov 4, 2012)

Word, thank you for the clarify technomancer.


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## Thyber (Nov 4, 2012)

normally you have a claim, if you were businesses, you'd put your claims department on it to spend their time on it. 

I'd atleast ask a compensation for the lacquer and inlay failure from the other buyer.

I've seen guitars being shipped in way less care who's inlays have never come loose.


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## ihunda (Nov 4, 2012)

Sorry to hear that, you clearly wanted a mint condition guitar and that's not what you received.
Show a picture of the guitar in the case so that all can see if it would travel back and forth and if this paint damage could have happened inside the case or not.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Nov 4, 2012)

Corrosion said:


> Lol, we had a guy get about 7 iPads when they first dropped with a similar trick...



Hopefully they caught him and chopped his hands off. asshole


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## glpg80 (Nov 4, 2012)

Unless the dude has pictures of the exact areas before it was shipped proving that UPS is to blame then the claim will fall through and it will be on his ass not yours.

Also USPS is the only carrier that allows both the receiver and the shipper to file a claim. However you will need the original insurance receipt, proof of value, and customs paperwork if involved.

You will need pictures of the packaging damage and pictures of all stickers on the box - carriers do use markings to track visual damages across nations if customs is involved.

The claim has to be filed 30 days after received from USPS or else it is not processed and denied, that is a hidden contract liner i found out the hard way BUT managed to file on the 30th day and so it was honored.

Since this was done via UPS and none of this documentation was done before hand then it is useless to even bother with a claim. the Seller should apologize and admit he was wrong to not include the details and refund the difference of the guitar (including S&H) and pay the return shipping.

Make copies of absolutely everything you can imagine.

I won the case against USPS and i was even the receiver. You have to have a mountain of evidence and really do your research by talking with the claims department and a manager at a store. Otherwise your paperwork will disappear. It even happened to me.

UPS does not allow the receiver to file the claim - so much of this falls on the shipper's shoulders, however he does not seem like the honest type nor the person that would be this thorough.

Anything i purchase online i make sure i have all of this evidence. It saved my ass $700 and the repercussions of getting screwed out of $1000 + a broken amplifier.


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## Corrosion (Nov 4, 2012)

@ VB Nah, they only caught him for the reship pharmas... apparently thats what they really track.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 4, 2012)

The guy is clearly in the wrong. You should also probably identify him so someone else doesnt make the same mistake


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## Jake (Nov 4, 2012)

I have already figured out who it is, and my deals with him have been great but its a shame to see this happen. That doesnt look like shipping damage to me looks like it was there beforehand. just my 2 cents.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

ihunda said:


> Sorry to hear that, you clearly wanted a mint condition guitar and that's not what you received.
> Show a picture of the guitar in the case so that all can see if it would travel back and forth and if this paint damage could have happened inside the case or not.




look at a couple posts ago. I made a video of it. And I cant show the whole guitar or it would give away the identity of the seller.


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## djpharoah (Nov 4, 2012)

purpledc said:


> look at a couple posts ago. I made a video of it. And I cant show the whole guitar or it would give away the identity of the seller.



For anyone who's seen the thread in the classifieds, your pics in the first post already give that away.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

glpg80 said:


> so much of this falls on the shipper's shoulders, however he does not seem like the honest type nor the person that would be this thorough.
> .




That is the weird thing. This seller IS well respected. He is probaby one of the top 10 sellers on this site which is why I find this so mind boggling. I have not dealt with him before but none of my research showed any red flags or signs to not deal with him. In fact it was the exact opposite.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

djpharoah said:


> For anyone who's seen the thread in the classifieds, your pics in the first post already give that away.




If someone is savvy and wants to do the detective work, yes im sure they could figure it out. But people would want proof about this and I took the pictures as discreetly as possible and still prove my case. And I was given the go ahead by max to make this issue public in this forum. Im simply trying to not stomp on this persons balls. In other words Im trying to find the most nice way to tell a not so nice story. And I was also trying to make sure emotions over who this person is didnt cloud peoples perception and influence their opinion.


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## JStraitiff (Nov 4, 2012)

This is why trades might not be the best idea. Sometimes things go wrong like shipping damage (chips) and damage due to temperature change or humidity (inlays and probably neck). When theres not money directly involved it makes things that much more complicated. 

I dont think this guy has done anything too wrong (albeit i only skimmed after the first post because you seemed to be getting repetitive). If there were issues with the nut then that should have been made clear. Aside from that i think a hardshell case is pretty good protection against the odds considering most guitar companies only ship their guitars wrapped in a foam bag, some styrofoam and in a cardboard box.

At the end of the day you both sent guitars and were expecting to receive a guitar. This could have happened to either of you. So if you guys switch back, the other guy is going to be stuck with a guitar thats broken. The way i would look at it is once they are sent out you now own the other guitar and its your risk to have it shipped through the mail. If it gets damaged you cant just send it back and be like "Aw no, this is your broken guitar dude...". Its nice of him to offer you money to get some of it fixed. It might be worth just accepting that offer and taking care of the rest on your own.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 4, 2012)

Actually, it doesn't belong to you, legally, until it shows up at your house. If it shows up broken, it's not your responsibility or your doing. The best scenario has it that item is covered by the shipping company. I am friends with both parties involved here, so I want to see this situation resolved. There are right and wrong way of doing things, and I just hope the right things are done.


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## TheOddGoat (Nov 4, 2012)

JStraitiff said:


> The way i would look at it is once they are sent out you now own the other guitar and its your risk to have it shipped through the mail. If it gets damaged you cant just send it back and be like "Aw no, this is your broken guitar dude...".



JStraitiff, would you like to trade?


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

JStraitiff said:


> This is why trades might not be the best idea. Sometimes things go wrong like shipping damage (chips) and damage due to temperature change or humidity (inlays and probably neck). When theres not money directly involved it makes things that much more complicated.
> 
> I dont think this guy has done anything too wrong (albeit i only skimmed after the first post because you seemed to be getting repetitive). If there were issues with the nut then that should have been made clear. Aside from that i think a hardshell case is pretty good protection against the odds considering most guitar companies only ship their guitars wrapped in a foam bag, some styrofoam and in a cardboard box.
> 
> At the end of the day you both sent guitars and were expecting to receive a guitar. This could have happened to either of you. So if you guys switch back, the other guy is going to be stuck with a guitar thats broken. The way i would look at it is once they are sent out you now own the other guitar and its your risk to have it shipped through the mail. If it gets damaged you cant just send it back and be like "Aw no, this is your broken guitar dude...". Its nice of him to offer you money to get some of it fixed. It might be worth just accepting that offer and taking care of the rest on your own.



Ok how about I paraphrase to make it simple for you.

I asked to trade my excellent condition guitar

He agreed to send a as new unplayed guitar.

He didnt package it well

It arrived damaged due to the poor packaging or some other reason Im unaware of. Certainly I didnt do it. As well as lifting inlays and reworked nut that clearly means this isnt a new guitar. 

This means the terms of the trade were not met because the item didnt arrive in the condition stated

Anyone doing a trade has the responsibility to package the guitar properly. And not all hardshell cases are created equal. I have provided further proof it could have been damaged by the case and poor packing.

if you ordered a guitar from musicians friend and it arrived damage would you simply accept it being thankful the guitar made it to begin with? After all you own it and cant just be like "aw musicians friend this is your broken guitar dude" 

Think about it man. I had no control over how the guitar was packed. He packed it poorly and Now im supposed to accept an instrument that isnt even close to the described condition? Can you explain how you really feel that makes sense? Seriously Im dying to know. Because I would LOVE to start trading and selling with absolutely zero responsibility.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 4, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> The guy is clearly in the wrong. You should also probably identify him so someone else doesnt make the same mistake



im with stealth, as much as you dont want to out him it needs to be done.
at the very least give us the name of the guitar so we can look up who sold it so we can avoid trades with him.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> im with stealth, as much as you dont want to out him it needs to be done.
> at the very least give us the name of the guitar so we can look up who sold it so we can avoid trades with him.




I fully understand yours and stealths position. Im simply trying to give this person the chance to make it right. And like djpharoah pointed out its not hard to figure out if you try and another member all ready stated that they have figured it out. If you truly want to know I would ask that for the time being you be patient and allow me 24 hours for this person to respond. If they dont or if they tell me to get you know what then I will really have no choice. And everyone please understand I dont mean that in a sense to use his name and reputation as ransom. I simply want to be diplomatic and give him a reasonable amount of time to make this right. And if he doesnt I wont make his name public for my sake but for all of you. 

The way I see it is if he makes good on this and is willing to work this out in a way that doesnt just benefit him then I would think there is no reason to publicly lash him because he infact did come around. And mind you this person has a virtually spotless reputation and I want no hand in prematurely tarnishing that. But if he doesnt make this right then I will have to assume that his reputation was constructed from luck. And at that point I will reveal it if someone else hasnt. But please understand my hesitation. I like debate, not conflict. And I feel a certain tact is required when dealing with situations as volatile as these can be.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 4, 2012)

For sure, it was actually a great idea to keep the name out of tue situation initially anyways. 

Either way I think the other guy owes you your guitar back (including shipping) or should compensate you because nuts dont just file themselves magically in transit.


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## purpledc (Nov 4, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> For sure, it was actually a great idea to keep the name out of tue situation initially anyways.
> 
> Either way I think the other guy owes you your guitar back (including shipping) or should compensate you because nuts dont just file themselves magically in transit.




You know I think he feels that he shipped the guitar in perfect condition and that is the end of it. But there are just so many other factors involved. And he has made it known that he thinks its just trading remorse and im just trying to get back a guitar I didnt want to let go. This is why Ive asked if he has something else he could trade me that is more on the level of what I sent him if thats how he feels and he hasnt responded. He is taking the stance that he has offered 2 solutions but I find them unacceptable which he seems not to care. 

I dont feel I should have to get the guitar repaired as we didnt agree for me to get a damaged and then repaired guitar. And the value will always suffer because of it. And he never actually agreed to pay to repair the damage which is what im most concerned about. He has only said he would pay to have the inlays glued in. And he has made no attempt to defend or refute that he packaged the guitar poorly. I understand that he isnt happy, Hell, I wouldnt be happy either. But I would still do what was right even if it meant I lost money. The last thing I would do is accuse someone of fraud just because I didnt want to take the hit. That seems very..... well lets not even go there. He has absolutely no ground in which to accuse me of fraud. I have just as good of a reputation as he does on other forums. I could see if I had a history of this or if I had sketchy deals in the past but he literally has nothing as there is nothing. Just a very very sad situation. From someone whom I thought and everyone thought could be trusted.


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## toiletstand (Nov 4, 2012)

if you do the research you can find out who it is. all that being said, hes always come off as a stand up guy. Im thinking maybe he didn't have time to inspect the guitar (since he has so many)thoroughly enough before shipping. You should just return each others guitar and be done with it.


i hope it works out for you! it says a lot that you went out of your way to keep the person name out of this!


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## texshred777 (Nov 4, 2012)

I agree, it was a good move to not reveal the name of the member initially. Especially when the thread will be filled with "I had great experiences with him/her" posts. 

With that said, I've had deals go horribly wrong with trusted sellers on a forum. One of which flat out ripped me off-the other tried. I'd give him a little time but in the end there are things about this that go beyond poorly packed-particularly a nut that's been filed. As someone who may be buying a new guitar soon, I'd want to know.


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## JStraitiff (Nov 5, 2012)

purpledc said:


> Ok how about I paraphrase to make it simple for you.
> 
> I asked to trade my excellent condition guitar
> 
> ...



Thats exactly what you'd be implying if you assumed he was going to accept a damaged instrument back. Trading with a zero responsibility on your end. Its a trade, not a purchase. Its much more complicated because you cant just refund the money. You're right that he should send it back simply on the premise that its not as advertised (overlooking the damage). Id just like you to realize his perspective and that if it was simply damaged you cant expect him to simply take the hit.

Im trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 5, 2012)

JStraitiff said:


> Thats exactly what you'd be implying if you assumed he was going to accept a damaged instrument back. Trading with a zero responsibility on your end. Its a trade, not a purchase. Its much more complicated because you cant just refund the money. You're right that he should send it back simply on the premise that its not as advertised (overlooking the damage). Id just like you to realize his perspective and that if it was simply damaged you cant expect him to simply take the hit.
> 
> Im trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.




Again, in an ordeal like this, the guitar was not legally his property until it showed up at his house. Therefore, if he opens the box and it's damaged, it wasn't his fault and can only be the fault of either the shipper or the shipping company. It sucks when the shipper has to accept a broken item due to negligence from one place or another, but it is absolutely not the receiver's legal obligation to just accept a broken item and get over it.


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## cromaticas (Nov 5, 2012)

Seems clear to me that you need to be refunded,he's wrong and you are right,imo.
Hope it turns out ok for both


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## poopyalligator (Nov 5, 2012)

JStraitiff said:


> Thats exactly what you'd be implying if you assumed he was going to accept a damaged instrument back. Trading with a zero responsibility on your end. Its a trade, not a purchase. Its much more complicated because you cant just refund the money. You're right that he should send it back simply on the premise that its not as advertised (overlooking the damage). Id just like you to realize his perspective and that if it was simply damaged you cant expect him to simply take the hit.
> 
> Im trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt.




I would absolutely expect him to take the hit. I think it is safe to say that the guitar was either not looked over well, and said the guitar was in better shape than it actually was, or it was damaged in shipping. Either way, it is still negligence on his part. I understand that it could have been damaged in shipping, but at the same time when you ship a guitar like that you have to take precautions to send that guitar the correct way so there is no damage to it. I do agree that it sucks on his part, and I think if you do that much business online, you should expect that not every deal is going to go flawlessly (just ask Adam about that). 


To OP: I hope everything gets worked out. Seller seems like a decent dude. Hopefully you guys can come to some sort of resolution that suits both of you.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 5, 2012)

The peanut packaging doesnt look negligant to me at all btw.


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> The peanut packaging doesnt look negligant to me at all btw.




What do you mean? Im hoping that is sarcasm but for the sake of the internet I feel I need to elaborate, lol. If you look at any online guide on how to ship a guitar peanuts are always said to be avoided. The reason is this. The do absolutely nothing. They protect nothing. They are at best bubble gum and a prayer. Maybe I didnt explain how it was packed properly. 

In my video I show how the guitar can slide from front to back and how the long horn of the guitar can and will hit the metal frame of the case. 

NOTHING was used inside the case to isolate the guitar from moving. So with every jar or knock that guitar took on its way to me it could be knocking up against the aluminum. 

Anytime I ship a guitar and in most cases when a guitar is shipped to me, the shipper puts bubble wrap (or in my case clean T shirts as to avoid any risk of scratches) are used to prevent the guitar body from moving. This will prevent 50% roughly of all damage. And it would surely have saved this guitar. 

Now after the guitar was in the case it was placed in a box that was the exact same length as the guitar case. There was absolutely no packaging at either end of the box. This is a V shaped guitar and the case is in the silhouette of the guitar. There was a small amount of cellophane wedged in the V portion of the case.  But mind you both ends of this case were right up against the very end of the box. This means that ANY energy exerted into the box was going directly into the guitar. There was no cushion at all. Honestly the shipper could have slapped the shipping label directly on the case and it would have been just the same. 

Now sorry for the long drawn out description but im just trying to portray a visual. Now as I said the box is in the shape of the guitar. The packing peanuts where placed on each side of the case. They did absolutely nothing to protect it. Remember this is a v shaped guitar. The peanuts are on each side of the neck and with each end of the case touching the ends of the box the only thing those peanuts are doing is going along for the ride. Peanuts also settle. And there wasnt enough of them to even reach the top of the box. Honestly, its a miracle there wasnt a snapped neck. Im just very thankful for that. Because this would be even worse if I was stuck with a guitar that I couldnt play. Well it still doesnt play but at least its fixable. Point being though its not what we agreed on. Same thing If I told a member my guitar was black and it arrives and its pink.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

As much as I appreciate the keeping the name out of this issue, I feel as if we can all stop beating around the bush here. I have the only RR that color that has been for sale in months. I can go ahead and post all the emails/correspondence between Purpledc and myself, but I am sure they will come up eventually, and since it has been brought public to my friends, (despite being attempted to be kept anonymous) I feel as if we are a forward enough group of guys that this can be handled and in a mature, professional manner. Keep in mind, I have spoken to many of my well-respected friends on this site, seeking their advice, and from them (who WILL remain anonymous) I have derived my present course of action.

I have offered two solutions. My reasoning for this is quite simply, I sent out a flawless guitar, it is not flawless now. If one is expected to believe that I will simply be "ok" with sending out a flawless guitar, paying for shipping twice, and receiving back a damaged guitar based solely on the word of the person whom I entered into a business transaction with and have no knowledge of outside of that, then I would be a fool. I have spent YEARS buying, selling and trading, and my reputation has been as such: My instruments are flawless, always, to the tune I have been run off a particular forum because it appears as if I don't even PLAY guitar or bass because they are so flawless. If they are not, they are described accurately and with full disclosure. My reputation is golden, and for damn good reason. I have worked incredibly hard to keep it as such. 

1.) UPS Claim. I understand how this works.

2.) I have asked the other party involved to take the instrument to a luthier for a quote, DESPITE my knowledge that the instrument was flawless. I consider this above and beyond, considering the following.


I have packed and shipped 3-400 guitars and basses in my gear whoring.  Trades and sales. I am well aware of how to pack an instrument.

Link to my eBay feedback:
eBay Feedback Profile for skicom

You will notice the amount of instruments sold via eBay ALONE, not mention a plethora of deals from The Gear Page, Birds and Moons, Parker Forums, Rig Talk(one deal involved the shipping of $15-20k of my Warrior collection to the moderator of the site in Saudi Arabia), Sevenstring.org, Caparison Forum, Seymour DUncan Forum, Metalguitarist, Jackson Charvel Forums, and even one or two from Bmusic Australia.

Of these, several have been Randy Rhoads models, at least 5. Before we get to that, a few selections from my feedback, and you can check these on your own via the above link.

Great seller. The guitar was well packed and protected. Amazing guitar.Buyer: *Member id *zavelput ( *Feedback Score Of* 64




) 
Oct-12-12 11:37 IBANEZ SZ4020FM-TKF! BEAUTIFUL FLAMETOP PRESTIGE J. CRAFT! TRANS-BLACK! (#320990073057)



great guitar, arrived in great condition in - VERY well packedBuyer: *Member id *robertbfields ( *Feedback Score Of* 7 ) 
Jul-24-12 09:08 PEAVEY USA EVH WOLFGANG FLAT TOP! CRAZY FLAME CAP! First year run! (#320936308223)


Quick and well-protected delivery. The guitar is in stunning condition ! Great !Buyer: *Member id *canadajaydy ( *Feedback Score Of* 25



) 
Jul-17-12 13:23 CARVIN DC727! NATURAL! FLOYD ROSE! CUSTOM SHOP USA SEVEN STRING! A MUST SEE! (#320927209997)

Great guitar, safe packing, fast shipping, satisfied customerBuyer: *Member id *alanbuchalter ( *Feedback Score Of* 175



) 
Jun-18-12 15:37 TAYLOR W-14 LIMITED EDITION WALNUT ACOUSTIC GUITAR! BEAUTIFUL USA CUSTOM SHOP! (#320891441650)

excellent shipping,packaged great- love,love love it!Buyer: *Member id *terrivt2 ( *Feedback Score Of* 83



) 
May-27-12 05:57 CARVIN DC127M! FLAMED, BOOKMATCHED KOA TOP! USA CUSTOM SHOP & HANDMADE! MAPLE! (#320902642012)


I will let you all do the rest of the reading should you so choose. Not to MENTION, if you look back a couple pages, you will see an $8k one-off Jackson Custom Shop Randy RHoads model, sent to CHINA, received with out a hitch, same as any other Rhoads sent as you can see.

You also may notice a common re-occurring theme as you go through that particular bit of my feedback, well packed, excellent packing, fast shipping, described perfectly. My shipping practices are not even close to being questioned by anyone but this particular gentleman.


This guitar was out of the case one time. To take pictures. I then had believed I had it sold, but was unable to ship it due to size restrictions, and the buyer was from South America. The guitar was packed already to go to him, but again, unable to ship. It was inspected before being packed for him, and has been in a room, my office, in a stack of guitar cases until shipping for this trade. It has not moved, it was not switched, it was not touched, by myself or anyone else until shipping. 

There was no issue with the nut and it has never been filed. The inlays in my pics are in perfect condition and so is the instrument(although, with the crazy climactic changes in the country in general recently, not mention extreme climate change to begin with, wood can shift). The Case candy were a couple of wrenches, that come with every guitar. That are in every case I own I am fairly certain.

Now, on to the pics. THis is the link to the eBay auction that was removed due to this trade:
Jackson Stars Randy Rhoads Red Quilt Metal Machine Seymour Duncan | eBay


Here are some particularly interesting pictures, although I encourage everyone to check the actual listing themselves:






















Anyway, as Jstraitiff put it earlier in the thread: 
"Thats exactly what you'd be implying if you assumed he was going to accept a damaged instrument back. Trading with a zero responsibility on your end. Its a trade, not a purchase. Its much more complicated because you cant just refund the money. You're right that he should send it back simply on the premise that its not as advertised (overlooking the damage). Id just like you to realize his perspective and that if it was simply damaged you cant expect him to simply take the hit."

This was put very well in my opinion. I sent out a flawless instrument. I have shipped numerous instruments, and my packing is not even CLOSE to being in question, and neither is how I describe the instrument. The photos show that, as do the other people's opinions and feedback that have trusted me in a plethora of trades and sales on the internet, both nationally and internationally.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 5, 2012)

Since you're throwing your past deals out into the open, weren't you recently banned on another forum, partly because of an issue related to a recent trade/sale? Something on the ESP boards I believe.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Since you're throwing your past deals out into the open, weren't you recently banned on another forum, partly because of an issue related to a recent trade/sale? Something on the ESP boards I believe.




The only one I am banned on is metalguitarist.org. Because my guitars are too flawless and they don't believe I can play, and I told them I have better things to do and am too busy to upload youtube videos of a Blackmachine B2 so one can hear it's tone.  They don't like it when you don't like to put up clips of a $5k Blackmachine recorded awfully to "showcase it". Funny guys, if you don't own a sherman, you must be scum.  The ESP thing refers to me getting one of Hetfield's practice guitars (which Rob_l can vouch for). But I am still a member, don't get on much, because I prefer to talk guitars 98% of the time and that doesn't happen much there anymore. Hence the reason to be here.  I can not recall a time where I have had an instrument brought up to be shipped poorly or not described well on any site. You know this as well as I do Max, you don't get to try the guitars and sheer volume of guitars that many of us feel the obsession to try, without describing them accurately and building a rep for being a solid person to deal with. I take that seriously. Honestly? Because I plan on trying as many guitars as I can before my fingers fall off and a good rep is essential to that.


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

And zach, I am not disputing that you know how to pack a guitar. Im not disputing that you have a great reputation in which you dont want tarnished. Im simply saying that while you retain the knowledge of how to package a guitar you did NOT utilize that knowledge when packing this guitar. I described how you packed it EXACTLY. Is that how you ship things normally?

I can also appreciate your past positive feedback. But by you using it to your defense you are in essence saying that you past success has made you immune to future failures. Just because you have a good record you feel your beyond making a mistake? Is that what your saying? That your 
infallible? 

You still say one of your options is to take it to a luthier. But there are still some things you refuse to address.

1. Are you going to pay for everything and NOT just the inlays?

2. We never agreed on a repaired guitar in trade. Are you willing to throw something else in to even the playing field?

3. You have consistently refused to address the "case candy" question. You cant tell me what you think was in the case and therefore I dont feel your memory of this guitar, how you packed it, its condition or even what was in the case for that matter is intact. 


You offered two solutions that I feel are unreasonable. You refused to entertain any other solutions but the ones you initially fabricated. And Remember I have positive feedback and 100% past satisfaction myself. But I can admit im not perfect. But I still swear I am guilty of absolutely no wrong doing in this case. Now please can we come to a solution that is fair for both of us? Its very simple. You didnt pack it right, it came damaged. Its not calculus.


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

engage757 said:


> The only one I am banned on is metalguitarist.org. Because my guitars are too flawless and they don't believe I can play, and I told them I have better things to do and am too busy to upload youtube videos of a Blackmachine B2 so one can hear it's tone.  They don't like it when you don't like to put up clips of a $5k Blackmachine recorded awfully to "showcase it". Funny guys, if you don't own a sherman, you must be scum.  The ESP thing refers to me getting one of Hetfield's practice guitars (which Rob_l can vouch for). But I am still a member, don't get on much, because I prefer to talk guitars 98% of the time and that doesn't happen much there anymore. Hence the reason to be here.  I can not recall a time where I have had an instrument brought up to be shipped poorly or not described well on any site. You know this as well as I do Max, you don't get to try the guitars and sheer volume of guitars that many of us feel the obsession to try, without describing them accurately and building a rep for being a solid person to deal with. I take that seriously. Honestly? Because I plan on trying as many guitars as I can before my fingers fall off and a good rep is essential to that.




Again do you feel your good reputation means your beyond making a mistake? And did you pack the rhoads properly? I have 100% positive feedback. Ive been on forums since the internet was created. But im automatically guilty of fraud? And your also banned from a forum because your guitars are too flawless? Really?


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

And if anyone is wondering why Im not accepting the repairing solution its because I didnt agree to trade for a damaged and then repaired guitar. Period. I ONLY agreed to do this trade based on condition.


And the reason im not accepting the UPS damage claim is because I have to pack it exactly as it was shipped. When I do that they will see it wasnt packaged properly. And they will deny the claim. The whole time this guitar will probably suffer more damage. And even if they DO actually pay the claim. They will pay it to the shipper. Not me. And right now Im less than trusting.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

purpledc said:


> Again do you feel your good reputation means your beyond making a mistake? And did you pack the rhoads properly? I have 100% positive feedback. Ive been on forums since the internet was created. But im automatically guilty of fraud? And your also banned from a forum because your guitars are too flawless? Really?




I never said you were guilty of fraud Tim. What I DID say, is that I shipped a flawless guitar. What I also have shown, and logic would assume that after shipping so many guitars, including several of the EXACT same ones, and never losing one, that I did not do anything different. 3-400 packed and shipped. Most of them the same exact way. Haven't lost one yet. I didn't simply decide to NOT pack your guitar well, I simply said that out of ALL the guitars I have shipped, including several in the exact cases and the same guitars, your guitar would be the only damaged one that was "improperly packaged".

Now, at the risk of ensuing arguments, I have shown pics showing the guitar to be flawless in all of the respects that you have said are wrong with it. That case didn't "file a nut" sir, and my pics showing close up of the nut show it hasn't been filed. That case CERTAINLY did not remove interior pieces and chip the paint away, styrofoam and plush padding don't create marks like that. Pretty sure that has already been said in this thread by a couple people. The inlays I have heard and seen happen before, but in my pics you can clearly see there is no issue prior to shipping. The case candy is also shown in the pics, several wrenches and such, that I have ZERO reason to remove, sorry sir, but honestly, they come with most every guitar, and I have about 400 allen keys, so I didn't remove them.

All I am saying by this post and my above post, is that I have prided myself on describing and photographing instruments accurately. I try very hard for that, and my reputation stands behind that. I also have a reputation for packing VERY well, as I have also shown. I didn't just change everything about the way I do business for one transaction sir. And the packing isn't an issue, I am sorry, but if you change 400 diapers in your lifetime, you are probably going to change a mean diaper. You aren't going to fix what isn't broken and try something new for the heck of it. Same as I haven't changed the way I ship. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And it certainly isn't, nor has ever been, broken.

What I see in this is more than fair, and to be honest with you, I don't feel good about doing it, and the more I think about it, the more I feel taken advantage of. Paying to fix a guitar I have proven was flawless, on nothing more than the word of someone I have never spoken to before and couldn't pick out of a crowd. That sounds like setting a ridiculous precedent to me to be honest, and I hope many people aren't brought into blindly paying money or returning instruments based on one person's word. We aren't friends sir, I have never spoken to you in my life until this transaction, and now you expect me to simply accept a damaged guitar back, saying I either caused the damage (which I know I didn't) or packed it poorly (which again, I think no fewer than several hundred references have proven I don't do) and take it by your word that this is an open and shut case, and I should accept full responsibility for the issue. Based on the word of a person I have no idea about. As stated above I have no reason to single out your single guitar to change everything about the way I pack, ship and do business. It seems sir, like you expect me to take the word of a stranger as written in stone. Think about it, you'll get it. My pics show the condition of the instrument when it left my hands. Your pics show what happened when it hits yours. Obviously, I trust myself and apparently you trust yourself. But who I do not trust sir, is the word of someone I don't know saying I suddenly changed everything about my persona, integrity, ethics and business habits at the drop of a hat. You expect me to just eat a damaged guitar that I have shown wasn't damaged. That is not only foolish, it is borderline insulting sir. 

As a friend of mine who has been paying close attention to this told me, it seems clear buyer's remorse has come into play when, despite my asking repeatedly, you have yet to take it to a third-party luthier as I have repeatedly asked. 

I know you say you have been your own guitar tech and done all your own work, but you aren't a third party.


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## ihunda (Nov 5, 2012)

Trade = risk
Shipping guitar = risk
Buying a guitar from someone that's not a shop with warranty and legal obligations = risk

We all must be aware of that.

Sometime you win on a trade / buy, sometime you loose, and all we have let is kharma, it should all evens out in the end but you have some high and low in the middle.

Clearly, engage is a great seller (I am saying that with my amazing faded blue demin CT6 next to me), the guitar was in a flight case, maybe that case isn't top notch, the guitar got scratched, buyer thinks it's all on the seller.

THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS IN THE REAL WORLD!

@Purpledc, you should accept that you were willing to take risks by trading a used guitar from the internet as opposed to buying it new from a store for much more. If you're so picky about flawless mint care and condition means so much to you, buy new!

Now it seems that engage is meeting you half way by offering to have a 3rd party inspect the damage and work with you on a solution. 

Now it's your turn.

My 2 cents


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## VBCheeseGrater (Nov 5, 2012)

purpledc said:


> if you ordered a guitar from musicians friend and it arrived damage would you simply accept it being thankful the guitar made it to begin with? After all you own it and cant just be like "aw musicians friend this is your broken guitar dude"



Yeah, agree with this. The person or company who shipped needs to man up in this sort of situation.


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## axxessdenied (Nov 5, 2012)

Hard to really say who is in the wrong in this thread.

Hard to either party to prove nor disprove what the other person is saying. 

I think a reputable Luther (which you both agree on) should take a look at the guitar AND case. See what their opinion is on what caused the damage? If it happened inside the case during shipping I would assume there would be some case damage as well to correspond with that part of the guitar.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 5, 2012)

purpledc said:


> Again do you feel your good reputation means your beyond making a mistake? And did you pack the rhoads properly? I have 100% positive feedback. Ive been on forums since the internet was created. But im automatically guilty of fraud? And your also banned from a forum because your guitars are too flawless? Really?



I know it seems unbelievable and absolutely absurd but I can vouche for him. He was basically banned because a certain group of old men were jealous that Engage had lots of guitars that are untouched.


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## MFB (Nov 5, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> I know it seems unbelievable and absolutely absurd but I can vouche for him. He was basically banned because a certain group of old men were jealous that Engage had lots of guitars that are untouched.



Yeah, it was _totally_ because they were jealous


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## CM_X5 (Nov 5, 2012)

axxessdenied said:


> Hard to really say who is in the wrong in this thread.
> 
> Hard to either party to prove nor disprove what the other person is saying.
> 
> I think a reputable Luther (which you both agree on) should take a look at the guitar AND case. See what their opinion is on what caused the damage? If it happened inside the case during shipping I would assume there would be some case damage as well to correspond with that part of the guitar.



I agree on a second opinion from a luthier, that should settle at least that for the most part. 

Also I think if anything engage is being pretty good about offering to pay for damage that he possibly had no part in (not gonna take either side in this) but asking for anything past that is a bit ridiculous just for the sake of being as you call it "fair". I think if he sent a presumably good condition guitar and it arrives beat up, if he is gonna take the cost of repair out of his own pocket then that should be good enough. If it's repaired then the problem is as good as resolved, anything past that is you trying to get compensated beyond what is reasonable. Also as to the case candy issue, why is that even an issue? What is really to be expected other than what was in there?


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## cromaticas (Nov 5, 2012)

The seller has pics of that guitar before the transaction,which doesn't prove the guitar was sent in that condition,for some reason it could have been damaged before being shipped.
The buyer can't prove the guitar was recieved in that condition.Maybe it was sent in flawless condition but was damaged during transit,maybe it was recieved in flawless condition and it was dropped or something.

From what I have read,none can prove their innocence.It's tough to decide who should pay for the damage.

Having someone inspect the guitar and case could be a good way to start,maybe that inspection can determine whether the guitar was damaged during shipping,or if it must have been damaged before being shipped,or after being recieved.

If it was damaged during shipping,then imo the seller should pay the damage,as it would have been his fault (or at least,he should be responsible for the claim to the shipping company).
If it was not damaged during shipping,then you both would need to come to an agreement,because again,from what I read,none can prove their innocence.

Just the way I see it,I hope you both come to a fair decision.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 5, 2012)

I am not picking a side here, I am just stating this out of pure objectivity:

In a trade, there are certain agreements. If it is agreed that party A will send a like-new guitar for a like-new guitar, and party B receives a guitar that was damaged in shipping, only to have the shipping company deny an insurance claim, even if party A pays to have the damage repaired, party B still does not end up with a like-new guitar. Does anybody thinks its fair for party B to accept the guitar? Putting yourself in the shoes of party A, you would hope that party B would just accept the repaired guitar, but they are not legally obligated to do so. As shitty of a situation as this is, the law would respect the original agreement as much as possible and if it is not possible for the complaint to be settled, they'd probably require a full replacement on the part of party A. 

I will say this again - I have done good deals with both people here, and engaged is a closer friend than purpledc.. But I have been in engaged's shoes before, and I fully replaced the guitar that was damaged, then kept the damaged guitar. It sucked real bad. Totally. Yet, it was the only responsible and honorable measure left to take, and I'd like to think that my personal reputation reflects such behavior.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 5, 2012)

MFB said:


> Yeah, it was _totally_ because they were jealous



id be jealous to if i saw a guy with 50-100+ perfect condition guitars at a time


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## Xaios (Nov 5, 2012)

This is something that needs to be pointed out, and I feel Engage should address.

Engage, in your posts, you've now repeatedly pointed out to your past reputation as evidence that your packing and business ethics are beyond repute. However, as someone looking in from the outside, it honestly appears that you're dodging certain questions by pointing to your reputation and trying to guide people to certain conclusions based on that reputation.

For example, Purpledc asked you 2 questions:

1) Do you feel your good reputation means you're beyond making a mistake? 
2) Did you pack the Rhoads properly?

You haven't actually answered either question. With regards to the issue of packing, you stated that you "didn't decide not to pack it well." If I'm at fault in a car accident, chances are that I didn't decide to cause it either. That doesn't change my negligence at that point in time. Additionally, the fact is that several years worth of accident free driving history doesn't completely preclude me having an accident for which I'm at fault in the future. Is it a reasonable indicator? Yes. Is is an absolute certainty? No.

Then you've simply repeated that "I've packed lots of guitars." You haven't actually gone out of your way to say "yes, this guitar was properly packed." That sort of skirting the issue and trying to avoid answering a question directly is a fairly common indicator that someone is trying to hide something, and I'd be lying if I said that I didn't find how specifically you've worded your replies to be suspicious. I work in insurance, and this is exactly the kind of thing I have to deal with on a regular basis from clients who don't want to tell me the truth, but also don't want to appear as though they're hiding the truth.

So, this is what it comes down to. If you say that this guitar was packed well enough prior to being sent out as part of this specific transaction for this kind of damage to have not conceivably occured under the normal rigors of shipping, consider my objections withdrawn, and I'll never speak of it again.

(The inlays, yeah I can believe that's a climate/humidity issue. I also haven't seen a picture of the nut post-transaction, so I can't comment on that.)


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## Nonservium (Nov 5, 2012)

..and here I was about to toss some guitars up on the board to cover what I spent on my latest acquisition. Craigslist here I come =\


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## Thyber (Nov 5, 2012)

I never got why these threads are allowed; I mean it's a random argument thread, in which noone can legally decide what the two parties involved should do now.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 5, 2012)

Thyber said:


> I never got why these threads are allowed; I mean it's a random argument thread, in which noone can legally decide what the two parties involved should do now.



they're allowed because its not a random argument thread, its a thread to inform other forum members who is and is not ok to do deals with. it also helps both parties come to some kind of agreement through offering legal advice. if it were just arguments both sides would be banned and the thread would be closed.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 5, 2012)

Nonservium said:


> ..and here I was about to toss some guitars up on the board to cover what I spent on my latest acquisition. Craigslist here I come =\




This is not a reason to refrain from posting your stuff in the classifieds. There have been thousands of transactions conducted in the classifieds of this site and a very small percentage of those involved broken guitars. An even smaller percentage of those involved broken guitars that turned into a messy situation like this, and and even smaller percentage of those messy situations have gone completely unresolved (I happened to be part of a situation like that, and I was in no way discouraged from posting my stuff in the classifieds section).


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

Xaios said:


> This is something that needs to be pointed out, and I feel Engage should address.
> 
> Engage, in your posts, you've now repeatedly pointed out to your past reputation as evidence that your packing and business ethics are beyond repute. However, as someone looking in from the outside, it honestly appears that you're dodging certain questions by pointing to your reputation and trying to guide people to certain conclusions based on that reputation.
> 
> ...




I am SOOO glad someone pointed out this fact. And its another thing that has really been bothering me. Ive repeatedly asked certain questions. Including.


1. Did you package this particular guitar properly? And do you feel that the way you packed it that it absolutely could not have been damaged? And ill add: Was my description of how you packed it accurate?

2. Does your reputation prevent you from making a mistake? and if not is it possible you or someone else made and error from the time you last inspected the guitar to the time it was shipped to me? You admit it was only out of the case once and that you didnt inspect it before shipping it so we really dont know do we?

3. Case candy? Again you stated there were more things in the case than I describe yet you cant tell me what they are. What was it? 


4. You still have refused to answer whether you will pay for all repairs, not just the inlays. Will you pay for all damages. Not just the inlay issue? Are you going to pay for the paint?


And for the record. You did say you felt all of this was due to buyers remorse. You stated that. You also stated that it looks Like someone knocked it on a coffee table while inspecting it and had second thoughts. If you werent speaking of yourself then your speaking about me. In doing so you did in fact accuse me and call me a liar. You did it by word manipulation and evasion. 


Another question this will make 

#6. Have you filed a UPS damage claim? And how much was it insured for. 


I have repeatedly stated I had no hand in the damage of this guitar. I also have pictures and an eye witness to this damage. Look at the time records. Look up my tracking number. I messaged you 10 minutes after I signed or less. 


the facts once again. 

I did not damage the guitar.

We agreed on a trade. You stated a certain condition and it didnt arrive that way. You seem pretty sure UPS will honor the claim if you in fact made one. And if they honor that claim the money goes to you. So where is the problem here. Your exact words were "its insured, so its no loss eithere way" Did you all ready sell the Carvin? 



You have dodged every single question including if we could compromise and have another agreement beside the one you presented. IMHO the way your handling this is suspect at best. 


We had a Written agreement. Some how whether via you, or UPS that agreement wasnt met. And now you feel as I am responsible. Would you please stop manipulating and dodging and start working with me?


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

And please people. If your friends with Zach I understand. But please think if this were you. Many of us have successful deals. But Ive never run into someone who feels they are infallible. Until now.


And zach, 

I think if you knew it was packaged properly you would gladly take it back, file the claim and get your money. Something tells me know they will deny it. Now please answer the questions directly.


My final word on this issue: Im sick of trying to defend my case. There is absolutely no reason to assume im being fraudulent. I posted a video of the case. I posted pics of the guitar. Ive tried to offer other solutions to show that this isnt just buyers remorse. And you continue to deflect and dodge. I dont care how good your reputation is. Sometimes it takes awhile for someones true colors to shine. So what. Many of you have dealt with zach and never had a problem. But now look. There IS a problem. And if you HAD had a problem this is how you would be treated. You would be called a liar. And you would have to accept damaged goods.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 5, 2012)

SO THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD GO DOWN.

OP should get his guitar back. Engage should file a case with ups. If his guitar was packed wrong, he will get compensated and no big deal. If ups doesnt agree, then he eats the cost.

THAT is how its supposed to work.



That being said, Engage got banned at MG.org because he has a reputation for being a shady character. Now i'm not saying he did anything wrong in this instance. I have no clue. But based on his past reputation and some blatant falsehoods he committed over on the ESP forum, I'm not sure how trust worthy he really is.
He can be very evasive of certian questions. 


Thats all i have to say about that.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 5, 2012)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> SO THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD GO DOWN.
> 
> OP should get his guitar back. Engage should file a case with ups. If his guitar was packed wrong, he will get compensated and no big deal. If ups doesnt agree, then he eats the cost.
> 
> THAT is how its supposed to work.



I used too many words when I said it, but basically this. I know it sucks, but this is the respectable way to go about it. When I make a trade, I do it every time with this possible scenario in mind.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 5, 2012)

He can probably file with UPS, thats the first thing i would pursue.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 5, 2012)

Oh, and as Techno said, in MY experience, the shipper has to file the claim. The receiver can not.


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I used too many words when I said it, but basically this. I know it sucks, but this is the respectable way to go about it. When I make a trade, I do it every time with this possible scenario in mind.





I know thats how I would handle this. But now im not even asking for that. He has made it clear that he feels this was buyers remorse and therefore feels I did this on purpose to get my guitar back. Ive sent him repeated P.M.s to try and resolve this some other way than he has suggested and he has not even replied to them. He seems to be taking the "my way or the highway" approach. 

Like I said too. I cant file a UPS claim. He said he was going to in the beginning and i dont know if he did. When he said that I thought he was going to do it for his sake and get his money as he seemed pretty sure they would comply. If he files this damage claim he want me to wait. 


My problem with this is they will give him the money. I have no idea if he would give it to me. He hasnt even told me how much the guitar was insured for. And being the recipient I cant access that information. I cant even file the claim. If he is so sure he packed it well. And he is so sure that he didnt do the damage then it had to happen in shipping. For which he would get full compensation for it. His hesitation to go this route has me feeling he knows more than he will admit to. If he is that confident in his packing then he has nothing to lose. 

And does he really think I damaged the guitar, the case, sanded down the nut and made the high E string fret out? If I was gonna try and fuck Zach over I would never have sent my trade. I have no reason to want to lose $70 in shipping to have my guitar take a vacation to florida. And again I dont even need that guitar back. But I would like some compensation if I will in the end NOT get what we agreed upon. And Im willing to compromise. He apparently is not. 

Remember guys. You may not have had a problem with engage757 aka Zach before. But if you do have a problem with your purchase or your trade is this the kind of treatment you would want from him? Or anyone for that matter? 



******** PLEASE MEMBERS OF THE FORUM**********

*I know at times like this if you feel a member is wrong or another is being wronged you want to go the negative feedback route. We cant let that happen here. I dont think Zach needs a bunch of reds over this and mods have made it clear in the past that this isnt what these threads are for. My purpose for creating this thread was to solve a problem, and I would like to refrain from creating another. *


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## Chris (Nov 5, 2012)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> That being said, Engage got banned at MG.org because he has a reputation for being a shady character. Now i'm not saying he did anything wrong in this instance. I have no clue. But based on his past reputation and some blatant falsehoods he committed over on the ESP forum, I'm not sure how trust worthy he really is.
> He can be very evasive of certian questions.



This. I can't speak for everyone else at my site, but contrary to Mehtab's description of us "old men" being jealous of someone else's collection, I'm quite happy with my two Shermans, two Suhrs, and almost a dozen other customs. I also, ahem, actually play them, but that's neither here nor there... 

The reason he was banned at MG is primarily because he used my site as nothing more than a gear flipping platform, and partially because his reputation on other sites (most notably the ESP forum) made him someone that I didn't want to risk exposing my community to.

Nonsense aside... 



engage said:


> This guitar was out of the case one time. To take pictures.



In my opinion, that's part of the problem. You don't pull a guitar out of the case once, take pictures of it, and then sell it down the road without actually making sure it's in playable condition before you tell the guy trading with you that it's mint. That's Engage's biggest problem - he has no idea how his guitars play, he just takes pictures of them and sells them. Had this been a guitar he actually played, the fact that the inlays aren't glued in correctly would have been immediately obvious.

As far as this:



engage said:


> My reputation is golden, and for damn good reason. I have worked incredibly hard to keep it as such.



Your reputation is dirt on the ESP forum, you are banned from my forum to protect my members from having to deal with you, and you now have a member here who has a "mint" guitar that you traded him that has the inlays falling out of it. It seems like your definition of "mint" is pretty close to your definition of "golden".

Do the right thing instead of being a fucking scumbag, and send the guy his guitar back.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 5, 2012)

purpledc said:


> He has made it clear that he feels this was buyers remorse and therefore feels I did this on purpose to get my guitar back. Ive sent him repeated P.M.s to try and resolve this some other way than he has suggested and he has not even replied to them. He seems to be taking the "my way or the highway" approach.



And if this is how he handles it, then IMO, its completely up to the Mods to do the right thing and either make him return the guitar and file his claim, OR ban him. 

Its the ONLY responsible course of action.

And on another note, this guy just dropped 5k on a blackmachine. He has tons of guitars and obviously has some deep pockets. He should just do the right thing and either pay out compensation, or take his chances with UPS.


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## Adam Of Angels (Nov 5, 2012)

I do want to say this, for the sake of not seeming biased in any way: it is possible that somebody other than UPS damaged that guitar, but it does not seem like Zachary to send a damaged guitar knowingly, and it not like Tim to damage a guitar upon arrival and then complain to the seller - as he said, he simply wouldn't have sent his guitar in the first place if he didn't want the Jackson. The strange part is that those flaws don't look like shipping accidents... But, I have seen dumber things happen to a guitar during shipment, so it's not out of the question.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

Xaios said:


> This is something that needs to be pointed out, and I feel Engage should address.
> 
> Engage, in your posts, you've now repeatedly pointed out to your past reputation as evidence that your packing and business ethics are beyond repute. However, as someone looking in from the outside, it honestly appears that you're dodging certain questions by pointing to your reputation and trying to guide people to certain conclusions based on that reputation.
> 
> ...




Perhaps I didn't state that clearly enough. I didn't make a mistake. I pack every guitar with the same care as the one before it. That was my point. They all are packed with the same materials, from the same place (in general) and I have packed plenty of RR models to know how to make sure one isn't damaged. THAT'S what I am getting at. I didn't make a mistake. I packed it the same as I have packed every one before. That is why I brought up the plethora of people commenting on my packing job. I did the same thing as usual, haven't lost one yet, get constantly complimented on how well I pack instruments, haven't ever lost one to damage, and have shipped more than a few of the same guitar with no issues.

Does that clear things up? Sorry if I didn't make myself clear bro.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

Nonservium said:


> ..and here I was about to toss some guitars up on the board to cover what I spent on my latest acquisition. Craigslist here I come =\



Don't hesitate man, this is a few and far between issue. 99.9% of dealing here go very well.



Adam Of Angels said:


> This is not a reason to refrain from posting your stuff in the classifieds. There have been thousands of transactions conducted in the classifieds of this site and a very small percentage of those involved broken guitars. An even smaller percentage of those involved broken guitars that turned into a messy situation like this, and and even smaller percentage of those messy situations have gone completely unresolved (I happened to be part of a situation like that, and I was in no way discouraged from posting my stuff in the classifieds section).



TOTALLY AGREED. 



purpledc said:


> And please people. If your friends with Zach I understand. But please think if this were you. Many of us have successful deals. But Ive never run into someone who feels they are infallible. Until now.
> 
> 
> And zach,
> ...




THere is no reason to consider me fraudulent either, it seems to me like you forget I posted pics of the guitar. It is well known I describe my guitars well, photograph them well, and pack them well. All that you have accomplished is imply things, call me a thief, a liar and swear at me. I have answered all your questions in this thread repeatedly. YOU sir haven't responded to taking it to a luthier. It has been stated numerous times in this thread that there is little to no way this damage happened in shipping. My pics show it as flawless. I have no reason to lie. 

So let's stop beating around the bush, because quite frankly I am tired of this raising my blood pressure.

I sent you an instrument. One that was flawless and packed well. My pics show it as such. The nut was not filed and the tips and wings were flawless, as my pictures showed. It even has the stock factory strings on it. Unless you filed the nut (or the case did) the nut has not been filed and it is clearly seen in the pics. That damage could NOT have happened in shipping, despite how many youtube videos you make. It has been stated in this thread by many neutral parties that there isn't much way how that could happen. The guitar was perfect when it left me. I have no reason to lie. Say what you will, but my reputation upholds my response, as do my pics. I offered to pay for an item's repair, take it to a third party luthier, for the 30-th time, DESPITE my 100% knowledge that it is zero fault of mine and the board's seeming thoughts that it didn't happen in shipping(again, viewing my pics prove this). If ANYTHING sir, this proves a certain level of something(you choose to call it what you will, I will call it integrity). I offered to pay for repairs to an instrument that COULD NOT HAVE BEEN DAMAGED IN SHIPPING(As per several opinions in this thread and your original opinion if I remember correctly) and I HAVE PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE of being flawless. 

Despite ALL this, I have still offered to take the word of someone I don't know from Adam (pun not intended  ) and pay for the damages to the guitar which I am certain of it's perfection upon shipment. Think of it this way. If someone you don't know asks you to give them money, will you do it with evidence that it isn't your fault? Of course not. 

I however, have. Repeatedly. Despite all this. Just take it to a luthier. 




7 Strings of Hate said:


> SO THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD GO DOWN.
> 
> OP should get his guitar back. Engage should file a case with ups. If his guitar was packed wrong, he will get compensated and no big deal. If ups doesnt agree, then he eats the cost.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the opinion, and despite not having ever dealt with me in the slightest, I will say you at least stated your OPINION as such and worded it well. I appreciate the thought and you presented your opinion intelligently. 

I was banned at MG.org because of the thread in the VIP section they all thought I couldn't see and in all reality, it has nothing to do with being shady, it has everything to do with jealousy.

I've answered all the questions. I've asked for a luthier. 



Chris said:


> This. I can't speak for everyone else at my site, but contrary to Mehtab's description of us "old men" being jealous of someone else's collection, I'm quite happy with my two Shermans, two Suhrs, and almost a dozen other customs. I also, ahem, actually play them, but that's neither here nor there...
> 
> The reason he was banned at MG is primarily because he used my site as nothing more than a gear flipping platform, and partially because his reputation on other sites (most notably the ESP forum) made him someone that I didn't want to risk exposing my community to.
> 
> ...




Thank you for informing me of my "biggest problem". Just so you know, Chris, I sold a guitar to one person on your site, and it was through eBay. We only found out we were on the same site later. Thanks, but no thanks. A moron can see when inlays are popping out Chris, and it does happen with climate change and humidity. I am terribly sorry if I purchased a Limited Edition, Japan-only Rhoads in the hopes I would have it as an investment someday and keep it in the case before deciding to part ways with it. Next Time I'll make sure to run every investment I have though you. Want to check my money market accounts and 401k while you are at it Chris? Your active members have nothing better to do than rage in hidden forums and act like childish, whiny folks who have absolutely nothing more pressing in life than to harass me for sharing pics of a beautiful Blackmachine for their enjoyment. Next time you know what? Maybe I'll just shut them up and film a $6k guitar through a computer mic so you can all feel justified as to my playing ability and hear "what it sounds like".  Guess that would cut down on site traffic, since every thread I posted on that site got turned into a wash of nonsense. Thanks, but your opinion of me as a "shady character" doesn't mean much considering some of the luthiers endorsed on that site. That's neither here nor there.

As I told all of you MG.org folks, I really couldn't care less about proving my playing ability on an instrument. Sorry, some of us have other things going on in life. That being said, I apologize for the free guitar porn of some really rare guitars I thought you guys may enjoy. I will make sure to never post another NGD anywhere where a MG.org member will ever see it again, I would HATE to offend.

Either way, this is besides the point and I have no further reason, thought, nor inclination towards you or your site's opinion of me. All thata MG.org has done with me is ridicule me for having nice guitars, not making videos, taking care of things that cost me money and in general, talk smack to me, about me or my guitars for ZERO provoked purpose.

Goodbye, And good luck with your future endeavors.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> And if this is how he handles it, then IMO, its completely up to the Mods to do the right thing and either make him return the guitar and file his claim, OR ban him.
> 
> Its the ONLY responsible course of action.
> 
> And on another note, this guy just dropped 5k on a blackmachine. He has tons of guitars and obviously has some deep pockets. He should just do the right thing and either pay out compensation, or take his chances with UPS.



so, I have to accept his opinion of what I should do as bond? So, there is no accountability at all placed on the other side? Sorry old boy, we know you show a perfect guitar, but, it isn't anymore and I didn't do it, so tough luck champ, here ya go back. OUt double shipping and with a guitar that has been messed with. As long as he is ok I can eat it? And I have a Blackmachine. So that means I should just let any stranger take advantage of me? Take a hit for everyone that says I owe them? Throw out money frivolously based on a complete stranger telling me I am a thief and a liar, when, in all honesty, I feel as if I have shown just as much evidence to the contrary.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

actually, let's end this, I have grown completely bored, exacerbated, annoyed and just pissed off. 

Tim, PM me and let's discuss this rationally and see what we can do. You also have my email and Facebook. I will be in and out all night, but I will leave this, Facebook, and email up and check it as frequently as I can. Let's just get this done. This thread is going to become nothing but an argument, sides will be drawn and the situation drawn out. No reason to carry this on. 

Let's you and I talk like two adults rationally and we can figure this out. We can post the solution here when we come to an agreement if you like. 

Let's each take some deep breaths, calm ourselves and figure this out as two grown men. We have no reason for anger and insults, I am sure you are a good guy and I don't want to think other of you. I am sure we can work this out peacefully. I apologize for speaking harshly and my anger, as well as bringing negativity to my favorite online hangout. This is the first time I have had an issue like this in years of trading.

Hit me up Tim, I'll check in as often as possible tonight.


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

engage757 said:


> actually, let's end this, I have grown completely bored, exacerbated, annoyed and just pissed off.
> 
> Tim, PM me and let's discuss this rationally and see what we can do. You also have my email and Facebook. I will be in and out all night, but I will leave this, Facebook, and email up and check it as frequently as I can. Let's just get this done. This thread is going to become nothing but an argument, sides will be drawn and the situation drawn out. No reason to carry this on.
> 
> ...




agreed. Pm being sent.


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## TheOddGoat (Nov 5, 2012)

engage757 said:


> Here are some particularly interesting pictures, although I encourage everyone to check the actual listing themselves:




I like how none of the pics showed the damaged areas clearly 

OK, I'm gone now.


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## L1ght (Nov 5, 2012)

TheOddGoat said:


> I like how none of the pics showed the damaged areas clearly
> 
> OK, I'm gone now.



Uhm... they do show the areas that were damaged... perfectly actually. What pictures were you looking at?

Except the inlays, which would be impossible to really photograph unless engage took pictures at a certain angle like purpledc did.


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## TheOddGoat (Nov 5, 2012)

L1ght said:


> Uhm... they do show the areas that were damaged... perfectly actually. What pictures were you looking at?
> 
> Except the inlays, which would be impossible to really photograph unless engage took pictures at a certain angle like purpledc did.




I just mean they don't show the pointy bits straight on 

I'm not adding to a discussion, because this is over anyway...

I was just being snarky.


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## purpledc (Nov 5, 2012)

Ok guys. I dont really want to go into the details of the agreement as I didnt discuss it with zach on what he does and doesnt want about our agreement made public. But please just realize that I think we both appreciate everyone's opinion on the matter and would like to thank everyone for their input. Me and Zach have come to an agreement and it looks like this issue has been settled without bloodshed or lost relatives for which I would like to thank Zach for. We have decided to give each other the benefit of the doubt and remain friendly and I really do hope that no one hesitates to deal with him over this issue. Its seems at times in life disagreements occur and things look bleak. But when both parties are able to hug it out and move forward, I really dont see a need for grudges and boycotts. So please thank you all and mods please feel free to lock this one down unless of course Zach would like to add anything.


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## Xaios (Nov 5, 2012)

Well that's good. Happy endings are always best.


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree Tim. Sorry it was blown up into more than it should have been. I have no ill will or hard feelings. Tim is a good guy and I would do business with him in the future. This was something that we both may have let get away from us a bit and I apologize to Tim for that. It may have something to do with all the politics in the air as of late, instilling feelings of hostility in us Americans!  We each just chopped off a couple pinky toes and made an agreement. we thought it best that way!  I do hope that any further issues any of you have in this forum can be handled a bit quicker than this, but with the same level of courtesy that, once calmed down, I am happy to say Tim and I have agreed to.

Happy endings are always good, and not just at an Asian massage parlor.



Back to the gear whoring with all of you now! Nothing further to see here!



-Z


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 5, 2012)

Chris said:


> This. I can't speak for everyone else at my site, but contrary to Mehtab's description of us "old men" being jealous of someone else's collection, I'm quite happy with my two Shermans, two Suhrs, and almost a dozen other customs. I also, ahem, actually play them, but that's neither here nor there...
> 
> The reason he was banned at MG is primarily because he used my site as nothing more than a gear flipping platform, and partially because his reputation on other sites (most notably the ESP forum) made him someone that I didn't want to risk exposing my community to.
> 
> Nonsense aside...



Sorry, if it makes you happy I'll refer to you guys as 40 years young next time. I love how you banned me too at MG for this, priceless  Also Im not sure why you think Engage is a liability because you have Patrick Simms the scammer posting and trying to sell his guitars on your forum but hey its ok because he operates under the LGM name now right?

Also despite you guys thinking Engage is some sort of scammer, he clearly isn't because purp and him have reached a conclusion that they are seemingly both happy with.


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## TheOddGoat (Nov 5, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Sorry, if it makes you happy I'll refer to you guys as 40 years young next time. I love how you banned me too at MG for this, priceless  Also Im not sure why you think Engage is a liability because you have Patrick Simms the scammer posting and trying to sell his guitars on your forum but hey its ok because he operates under the LGM name now right?
> 
> Also despite you guys thinking Engage is some sort of scammer, he clearly isn't because purp and him have reached a conclusion that they are seemingly both happy with.



But has anyone seen engage and purp in the same place at the same time?

OK, gone properly now - had no reason to come here in the first place...


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## engage757 (Nov 5, 2012)

TheOddGoat said:


> But has anyone seen engage and purp in the same place at the same time?
> 
> OK, gone properly now - had no reason to come here in the first place...




I laughed.


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## jacksonplayer (Nov 5, 2012)

As another of the "mean old men" at MG.org, let me say that engage's ban had nothing to do with "jealousy." The guy's ONLY contributions to the community were pic threads of his new acquisitions, usually followed shortly by FS threads involving the same guitars. If that isn't outright spamming, then it's one step short.

I think it's wonderful that engage has the ability to buy and sell a zillion expensive guitars, though he doesn't give any indication that he derives musical enjoyment from his collection. But being a member of an online community like MG isn't about boasting of one's guitar collection. The rest of us post silly pic-laden NGD threads because we're like over-excited children at Christmas when we get new axes. With engage, it seemed very much like a sales tactic.

Oh, and just to show that I'm not biased against engage as a person, I'm guessing that the neck on that Rhoads warped in shipping. The pinging high E string and peeling inlays together strongly indicate that, to me. If that's so, there's nothing engage could have done to prevent it. Unfortunately, most Japanese Jacksons in recent years have not had quartersawn necks, and flatsawn maple is prone to warpage.

The ding could conceivably have happened in shipping, though it doesn't really look that way to me.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 5, 2012)

Mmmm..cmon chris you know i love you.


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## eaeolian (Nov 6, 2012)

Glad to see this came out OK.


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