# Feeling kinda bad for Suhr...



## Heart Of The Sunrise (Jul 1, 2021)

Seeing the new Ibanez headless models got me thinking about how in the past couple of years Ibanez and Charvel have managed to grab quite a few "2nd wave shredders" (basically the fusion-inspired shred players that came on the scene in the mid-late 00s and gained prominence in the 10s) who previously either endorsed or frequently played Suhr by coming out with the AZ and DK lines respectively. Basically the general characteristics of Suhrs as compared to the major manufacturers were the roasted maple necks, SS frets, transparent finished bodies, and pickups that lean to the "hot" side but are generally more versatile than their metal-oriented counterparts. Obviously, Ibanez and FMC took note of this popularity and came out with their takes on this style of guitar, and were able to gain a bunch of former Suhr artists with better endorsement deals (since they have larger budgets).

All of the "Suhr converts" I can think of off the top of my head: Guthrie Govan (Charvel Sig), Martin Miller (Ibanez AZ sig), Tom Quayle (Ibanez AZ sig), Rick Graham (Charvel DK24), Lari Basilio (Ibanez AZ sig), Jack Gardiner (Ibanez AZ), Chris Brooks (Charvel DK) (Chris mostly played Ibbys, but I remember Suhrs in the rotation too).

Also worth noting is the fact that Ibanez now basically has a deadlock on the mathrock-shred market considering they have both Polyphia guys and both CHON guys, again thanks to the Suhr-inspired AZ, and now already has pull in the headless market because they came out of the gate with an Ichika Nito signature. I believe the dude from Good Tiger (which I've admittedly never listened to, but believe to be around the same genre) plays a Charvel DK24 now too. Considering that Mateus Asato, one of the first popularizers of the clean/compressed/two handed tapping style of playing has been a longtime Suhr endorser, and that the aforementioned Ibanez guys all play AZs (except Ichika), I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume at least one of these people would have been endorsing Suhr were it not for the AZ.

Anyway, all of this was just to say that I feel bad that Suhr has lost quite a few prominent players considering that they're basically directly responsible for a hugely popular style of superstrat in the current guitar scenes.


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## technomancer (Jul 1, 2021)

Endorsements are a business, period. Suhr makes stellar products but their artist deals are nothing compared to what Ibanez or FMC will do for an artist.


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## Heart Of The Sunrise (Jul 1, 2021)

technomancer said:


> Endorsements are a business, period. Suhr makes stellar products but their artist deals are nothing compared to what Ibanez or FMC will do for an artist.



True. It was a smart marketing decision on both companies' parts to start those lines because it's naive to assume that virtually any player would choose to stick to a small boutique when they get offered a significantly more lucrative deal with a very solid clone made by a deep-pocketed company.


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## jl-austin (Jul 1, 2021)

I don't care what it is, there will always be more $1000 guitars sold than $3000 to $4000 guitars. 

After playing (and owning) a MIM Charvel, I have zero interest in what Suhr is doing.


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## nickgray (Jul 1, 2021)

Heart Of The Sunrise said:


> Anyway, all of this was just to say that I feel bad that Suhr has lost quite a few prominent players considering that they're basically directly responsible for a hugely popular style of superstrat in the current guitar scenes.



I don't know how bad it actually is for Suhr though. They're still a high end boutique, and Ibanez is a mass producer with multiple quality tiers. I always thought that Suhr is basically modern boutique Fender. Whereas Ibby is Ibby, they do their own thing.

It's a bit weird that something as oddly specific as an HSS strat with a vintage trem and a with roasted maple neck got the traction that it got.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 1, 2021)

Suhr doesn't do traditional endorsement deals, everyone has to pay. So they're not going to hold artists like the mainstream production companies that pay out for artists, which is exactly what Suhr wants. It means the endorsement is genuinely about the gear and not a pay check. 

People don't buy Suhr (or any of the boutiques) because so and so plays them, they buy them because they're exceptional guitars. 

Besides, based on recent build time tables, Suhr is doing just fine.


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## HoneyNut (Jul 2, 2021)

In Bangladesh, guitar players in smaller villages know about Suhr guitars. The avg player buys in the Harley Benton range though.

I'm really happy with the DK24 range. I can bring it back home and not be 'too' concerned. The DK24, honestly, is doing its job as a Suhr surrogate. It has Suhr pickups in it.

If it were more reasonable, that I can travel with any where and play with whatever crowd, I really wish there was a Suhr in the mid, or even, reasonable ranges.

I tried a few Suhrs at Cosmo music, Toronto, and the rosewood neck with the suhr logo and the fretboard roll off is something to appreciate. Nice headstock too.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2021)

Suhr's going after a different clientele. 

Not really a big deal. I think they sell everything they are able to make and are just fine with that. 

They did the whole modern Marshall thing before Friedman and could have easily been as big. 

They also attempted the mic low cost line almost a decade before anyone else. John will make moves when he needs too.

Anderson has never really been worried about any of this stuff either. Just keep selling 5000 dollar guitars.


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## mystix (Jul 2, 2021)

Funny... I was just playing my ibanez js2450 and Suhr modern satin. As great as the JS is, the Suhr is just on a different level. Playability and tones are stellar.


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## sleewell (Jul 2, 2021)

i don't feel too bad for them, i'm sure their bank acct has several more commas than mine so they must be doing something right.


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

The owners cashed out a long time ago when they were purchased, so they're doing fine.

As for the guitar company, they sell more than they can build.
Their main target audience is wealthy "older" players who couldn't care less about any modern endorser, so any impact of AZs or DKs will be truly minuscule in terms of demand.


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## Mathemagician (Jul 2, 2021)

Some boutiques just want to be boutiques. And often “exclusive” has an appeal to it as well.


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## Darkscience (Jul 2, 2021)

Suhr is not as big as FMC because they did not invent the Stratocaster, so I could care less that they are not as big and can't do as much. I think they also make Telecaster variants, I mean...not very original if you ask me. If they had invented something different and unique and then someone else took their people then maybe you could feel bad.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jul 2, 2021)

Something to note too is that remember, endorsements are primarily about cash for the _artist_, and more about gaining brand recognition (and the cash that follows) for the endorsing company. A brand as iconic as Suhr, in my opinion, really doesn't need a whole lot of publicity to get their name out there because those that are in the market for a guitar like that very likely are already aware of who they are and what they do. 

Especially for a shop where quality >>>> quantity, as long as they can keep their order book full (which is a fraction of a fraction of the size of what a company like Ibanez moves), I'm sure they don't really care.

Granted, it is always kind of a bummer to see someone's "thing" get copied and mass produced, but it's kind of inevitable. And in my opinion, honestly a win all around. Players get their 'cheap Suhr,' Ibanez gets their business, and folks that may not have been in the market for a Suhr in the first place might now want a 'fancy AZ.'


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## Zado (Jul 2, 2021)

I'm quite sure Mr. Suhr doent give a fluff


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Granted, it is always kind of a bummer to see someone's "thing" get copied and mass produced, but it's kind of inevitable. And in my opinion, honestly a win all around. Players get their 'cheap Suhr,' Ibanez gets their business, and folks that may not have been in the market for a Suhr in the first place might now want *a 'fancy AZ.'*



A fancy AZ _with _actually good factory fretwork, and _without _that abomination of a headstock.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 2, 2021)

Just the fact everyone instantly thinks "Suhr" when any company makes a pickguard-less super Strat with a two point trem is enough to cement how "not bothered" they are with endorsement drama.


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## Wucan (Jul 2, 2021)

Suhr can never churn out enough guitars for the amount of orders they get, they'll be fine. They've already built their rep as one of the top boutique manufacturers and won't need to try hard to get a new wave of artist sponsorships.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just the fact everyone instantly thinks "Suhr" when any company makes a pickguard-less super Strat with a two point trem is enough to cement how "not bothered" they are with endorsement drama.



more people think suhr then Anderson and Anderson isn’t hurting. He tried to retire. And he’s said that he’d retire if they have a year where they don’t do enough sales. 
That was like 8 years ago.


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## bzhang9 (Jul 2, 2021)

do you feel bad for fender because suhr exists? 

suhr cant be bothered putting out a quality product in the 1-2k range

both AZ and DK series are loaded with specs that suhr can't match at a fraction of the cost


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2021)

bzhang9 said:


> do you feel bad for fender because suhr exists?
> 
> suhr cant be bothered putting out a quality product in the 1-2k range
> 
> both AZ and DK series are loaded with specs that suhr can't match at a fraction of the cost



they definitely did once.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 2, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> they definitely did once.



And absolutely no one bought them.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> And absolutely no one bought them.



was it because no one bought them or because consistency was all over the place and he didn't want to deal with it anymore.

I still think he did the 1k+ Chinese guitar a decade too early. Bet they'd sell a container full of them now.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 2, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> was it because no one bought them or because consistency was all over the place and he didn't want to deal with it anymore.
> 
> I still think he did the 1k+ Chinese guitar a decade too early. Bet they'd sell a container full of them now.



Suhr said they didn't move enough to make it worthwhile and that the margins were too small. Retailers wound up discounting the last of them, and they still sat for some time.

The few I played were solid, so I don't think quality was the problem.

But, at the time, you could get an Ibanez Prestige for less, so folks just did that.

If they released them today everyone probably just say to buy a used AZ. 

For those curious about the Rasmus line:
https://www.themusiczoo.com/blogs/news/up-close-with-rasmus-guitars-from-suhr


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Suhr said they didn't move enough to make it worthwhile and that the margins were too small. Retailers wound up discounting the last of them, and they still sat for some time.
> 
> The few I played were solid, so I don't think quality was the problem.
> 
> ...



They were selling a decade ago for like 1200 and their margins were too small

yeesh. 

The entire set of Suhr features costs like 300-400 to produce now.

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-5...0001&campid=5338014327&icep_item=274638171939


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 2, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> They were selling a decade ago for like 1200 and their margins were too small
> 
> yeesh.
> 
> ...



Pretty sure those aren't PLEK'd with Gotoh hardware.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Pretty sure those aren't PLEK'd with Gotoh hardware.



No I mean they'd definitely have to build them better then that one. They definitely wouldn't build that guitar and charge 1200 for it.

But the recent prs guitars show that people are definitely ok with paying 1300-1400 for a Chinese guitar now.

also there's a rasmus selling for 1600 on reverb. what the crack.


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> No I mean they'd definitely have to build them better then that one. They definitely wouldn't build that guitar and charge 1200 for it.
> 
> But the recent prs guitars show that people are definitely ok with paying 1300-1400 for a Chinese guitar now.
> 
> also there's a rasmus selling for 1600 on reverb. what the crack.



There's one selling for 1600, sure (and what a steal of a deal! It's 500$ down from 2100)...but there's also another one for 1800$


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## maliciousteve (Jul 2, 2021)

jl-austin said:


> I don't care what it is, there will always be more $1000 guitars sold than $3000 to $4000 guitars.
> 
> After playing (and owning) a MIM Charvel, I have zero interest in what Suhr is doing.



Have to agree. I compared a Charvel So Cal to a Suhr Modern Drip 80's and quite honestly the Suhr certainly wasn't £3000 better. I was more than happy to stick with the Charvel at that time.


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## soliloquy (Jul 2, 2021)

i'm no subject expert, but what i see is that, if you compare Suhr to Gibson, the latter REALLY cares if another brand makes a les paul type guitar. Gibson is in direct competition with the entire world.
Suhr, on the other hand, doesn't care if existing shapes exist through Schecter, Kiesel, Charvel, Jackson, G&L, Fender, TA etc. People will buy Suhr if they have the means to it. 

I personally appreciate Suhr's style on artist relationship than other brands. Artist will play them, and Suhr doesn't really have to pay them to keep that relationship going. People can play whatever they want but will return when they realize what Suhr has to offer


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## Matt08642 (Jul 2, 2021)

A big thing for musicians is also being able to access parts/entire guitars anywhere in the world.

I can walk in to a store in California, Toronto, and probably all over Europe and Asia and find an Ibanez or Charvel off the shelf - Conversely I've never seen a Suhr in real life


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## mbardu (Jul 2, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> A big thing for musicians is also being able to access parts/entire guitars anywhere in the world.
> 
> I can walk in to a store in California, Toronto, and probably all over Europe and Asia and find an Ibanez or Charvel off the shelf - Conversely I've never seen a Suhr in real life



I feel like I've heard this argument so many times. That the artists need to access their gear from anywhere in the world...but never understood how it could be anything but total BS.

Are we thinking a travelling artist would realize the day of a gig in a random country that their guitar and all its backups are somehow broken beyond repair, and they have to rush to the local guitar store to buy one at the last minute? And that in this scenario the guitar store would be guaranteed to have their model available in stock in a good shape? And that if they did not, then the artist would just have to give up on the gig instead of using something else? I'm Like.....

Doesn't make sense for small budding artists; they're not going to play diva if they have to use another guitar instead of their exact signature.
And makes even less sense for big signature artists; like, sure a Jem/PI_t_A or a JP is going to be available in many places...but we're talking about people who travel with 12 backups and a couple of guitar techs so...

Not even talking about the artists who play anything _but _their signature models in practice...


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## CerealKiller (Jul 3, 2021)

Not everyone can carry multiple backups, and it is easier to get hold of loan guitars and leave your broken stuff with a dealer, than having to buy a new one at a random retailer or have it shipped from abroad. 
Yeah it's a luxury thing, but if you going on a long tour, it's nice to know that in the worst case that all your backup gear fails, there might be a local dealer who can help you out, without bankrupting you.


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## Supernaut (Jul 3, 2021)

mbardu said:


> I feel like I've heard this argument so many times. That the artists need to access their gear from anywhere in the world...but never understood how it could be anything but total BS.
> 
> Are we thinking a travelling artist would realize the day of a gig in a random country that their guitar and all its backups are somehow broken beyond repair, and they have to rush to the local guitar store to buy one at the last minute? And that in this scenario the guitar store would be guaranteed to have their model available in stock in a good shape? And that if they did not, then the artist would just have to give up on the gig instead of using something else? I'm Like.....
> 
> ...



Somebody in this thread already mentioned that Suhr doesn't do traditional endorsement deals (think it was Max), so it's likely a touring artist will have to pay for backups out of their own pocket with Suhr. No financially responsible touring artist who's just starting out is going to pay for a top-end Suhr when they can get multiple functionally fine guitars for free that get the job done.

Realistically speaking - how many 'backups' are you going to get through Suhr versus a deal with Ibanez or Fender? What about if you want something with a few different pickup configs? Ibanez could literally send you one of dozens of production guitars right off the shelf anywhere in the world. Gear gets stolen? Bummer, but your guitar is easily replaceable.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 3, 2021)

Supernaut said:


> Somebody in this thread already mentioned that Suhr doesn't do traditional endorsement deals (think it was Max), so it's likely a touring artist will have to pay for backups out of their own pocket with Suhr. No financially responsible touring artist who's just starting out is going to pay for a top-end Suhr when they can get multiple functionally fine guitars for free that get the job done.
> 
> Realistically speaking - how many 'backups' are you going to get through Suhr versus a deal with Ibanez or Fender? What about if you want something with a few different pickup configs? Ibanez could literally send you one of dozens of production guitars right off the shelf anywhere in the world. Gear gets stolen? Bummer, but your guitar is easily replaceable.



Chances are, if you're big enough for a "send you loaner guitars around the world" sort of deal you're in the position to have the means of providing for and accounting for issue with backup/replacement gear. 

If you're "just starting out" even the more monied companies aren't just throwing gear at you all willy-nilly.


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## Siggevaio (Jul 3, 2021)

People that can afford a Suhr will probably buy a Suhr anyway. I sold a Suhr a while back and bought a Fender Player Strat, and I'm really happy with it. But if money wasn't an issue I would never go with a MIM Fender over a Strat.


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## Marked Man (Jul 3, 2021)

Suhr has their niche. And they are doing more than ok in it.


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## Dyingsea (Jul 3, 2021)

Suhr is a staple in the boutique world so not having certain endorsers is moot. Many also seem to forget a super strat style is only one of their many offerings and most guys are playing their classic strat & tele styles. I would guess the suhr modern probably accounts for the smallest amount of their sales. Look at how fast the Suhr Aura sold out and at its price point.


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## RevelGTR (Jul 3, 2021)

Suhr’s are truly special instruments, and I say that as someone who owns and adores an AZ. Suhr sells every guitar they make and has a waiting list of over a year for custom orders, I don’t think you need to feel too bad for them.


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## AltecGreen (Jul 3, 2021)

Supernaut said:


> Somebody in this thread already mentioned that Suhr doesn't do traditional endorsement deals (think it was Max), so it's likely a touring artist will have to pay for backups out of their own pocket with Suhr. No financially responsible touring artist who's just starting out is going to pay for a top-end Suhr when they can get multiple functionally fine guitars for free that get the job done.




Someone better tell Natsumi of Caspa and Hyunjung of Rolling Quartz. Both just got expensive Suhrs that they have been gigging with. (Bear in mind Suhr is much more expensive in Japan and Korea than in the US). I discovered Caspa because they were an opening act at the 2021 Naon Yaon show and I was like why does the opening act have someone using an expensive Suhr. The irony is that the more established bands in that event were using off the shelf Ibanez guitars.

Natsumi's Suhr unboxing



Hyunjung talking about her new Suhr duing their recent livestream show. (time marked)




I follow a lot of smaller bands in Japan and Asia. You would think for small bands or starting bands, the musicians would use affordable instruments. What I see instead are a lot of players using stupidly expensive instruments. The winner in this case is Yuna Anjou who is in high school but gigs with a PRS Private Stock. Not sure why this is the case but there are enough cases to see a trend.


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## asopala (Jul 3, 2021)

AltecGreen said:


> Someone better tell Natsumi of Caspa and Hyunjung of Rolling Quartz. Both just got expensive Suhrs that they have been gigging with. (Bear in mind Suhr is much more expensive in Japan and Korea than in the US). I discovered Caspa because they were an opening act at the 2021 Naon Yaon show and I was like why does the opening act have someone using an expensive Suhr. The irony is that the more established bands in that event were using off the shelf Ibanez guitars.
> 
> Natsumi's Suhr unboxing
> 
> ...




In all fairness, most Japanese bands that I follow tend to mostly play domestically, as the country does have the second largest music industry on the planet, second only to the USA. Not to mention the country is a good bit smaller (just about the size of California), so there's a lot less risk bringing instruments if you're not flying all over the place (and aren't any more than 6 hours from Tokyo by bullet train). A lot less to worry about, I feel.

Similar thing with many Korean bands that mostly stay domestic, but the country is the size of Indiana (or Ireland).


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## Heart Of The Sunrise (Jul 3, 2021)

sleewell said:


> i don't feel too bad for them, i'm sure their bank acct has several more commas than mine so they must be doing something right.





Zado said:


> I'm quite sure Mr. Suhr doent give a fluff





bzhang9 said:


> do you feel bad for fender because suhr exists?
> 
> suhr cant be bothered putting out a quality product in the 1-2k range
> 
> both AZ and DK series are loaded with specs that suhr can't match at a fraction of the cost





Marked Man said:


> Suhr has their niche. And they are doing more than ok in it.



Ok, now that there has been multiple comments along these lines I feel that I need to clarify that saying that I “felt bad” for Suhr was poor wording. Never in my life have I lost sleep over how well a fuckin’ guitar company is doing. Secondly, I also understand that a boutique operates differently than a major manufacturer. Lastly, I am aware that Suhr is not actually doing any worse business-wise as compared to when they had more frequent “exposure” per se.

My point in making this thread was not to provide any misguided lamentation for a successful and renowned guitar company, but rather to primarily remark on how successful Ibanez and Charvel have been in not only making very good interpretations of a certain style of guitar but also in actually managing to pull the large majority of artists who previously the “original”, if you will. Secondarily, I had just noticed that Suhrs have had less “representation” compared to when the Ibanezes and Charvels did not exist yet.


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## Musiscience (Jul 4, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> People don't buy Suhr (or any of the boutiques) because so and so plays them, they buy them because they're exceptional guitars.



Exactly! 

Not knocking Charvel DKs or Ibby AZs in any way, they are really cool and well playing guitars for the money. But they don't even come close to the exceptional build quality and attention to detail and the fit and finish of a Suhr. People who are after that very special instrument will not go the AZ route. 

Charvel's CS is very good too, and will surely do a DK24, but it will put you in the same price ballpark as Suhr or TA.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Suhr said they didn't move enough to make it worthwhile and that the margins were too small. Retailers wound up discounting the last of them, and they still sat for some time.
> 
> The few I played were solid, so I don't think quality was the problem.
> 
> ...



Yes I had complained on TGP about spending 4-5k on a guitar because in the end I'd sound exactly the same on a 1k guitar. Suhr said he was simply trying to build the best mousetrap he could. I asked about an import line like PRS did but he said he didn't trust the foreign labour to be consistent. Additionally he felt that it was a lot of work and sales to simply feed the machine with a foreign factory. I think he's doing fine. Sure Ibanez and Charvel have copied his stuff but they all do that to each other. He himself copied Fender


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## Bordcla (Jul 6, 2021)

jl-austin said:


> I don't care what it is, there will always be more $1000 guitars sold than $3000 to $4000 guitars.
> 
> After playing (and owning) a MIM Charvel, I have zero interest in what Suhr is doing.



How many Suhrs have you sampled? The others you quoted may have a similar nominal feature set and general outward design. But that's where the resemblance ends.

Do you think that those entry level Chryslers with chrome side gills are the same as a Bentley because they kinda look similar?

Wood choice and prep, fretwork (not all SS fretwork is the same), nut, setup, pickup quality (Suhr has noiseless pickups and generally very high quality pickups), fit and finish. 

I have an AZ. Great guitar, but it's not comparable to a Suhr except in general design. The build and fit and finish are not in the same league. The pickups also.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 6, 2021)

Bordcla said:


> How many Suhrs have you sampled? The others you quoted may have a similar nominal feature set and general outward design. But that's where the resemblance ends.
> 
> Do you think that those entry level Chryslers with chrome side gills are the same as a Bentley because they kinda look similar?
> 
> ...



I think the point being made is that while, yes, a Bentley is nicer than a Chrysler, but they'll both get you from point A to point B. 

Not everyone cares, or can even appreciate, the finer details that separate a $1k guitar from a $3k. Which isn't a knock on anyone. I'd say most guitarists fall into that category.


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## Matt08642 (Jul 6, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not everyone cares, or can even appreciate, the finer details that separate a $1k guitar from a $3k.



The biggest detail between $1000 and $3000 in 2021 is how the former has a Made in China sticker, and the latter has a Made in Indonesia sticker + poplar burl veneer


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 6, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> The biggest detail between $1000 and $3000 in 2021 is how the former has a Made in China sticker, and the latter has a Made in Indonesia sticker + poplar burl veneer



ain't nobody but prs trying to charge you 1000 dollars for a mic production guitar.


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## Matt08642 (Jul 6, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> ain't nobody but prs trying to charge you 1000 dollars for a mic production guitar.



I should clarify I mean in Canada, where MIC Epiphones are $1050 after tax.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 6, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> I should clarify I mean in Canada, where MIC Epiphones are $1050 after tax.



condolences for your country.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> ain't nobody but prs trying to charge you 1000 dollars for a mic production guitar.



Eastman has entered the chat.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

budda said:


> Eastman has entered the chat.


I don't care how good it is, if it's MIC I'm not touching it


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## skinhead (Jul 6, 2021)

Poot Suhr with their incredible built guitars against Ibanez cakes… yeah… poor Suhr.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 6, 2021)

Hired Goon said:


> I don't care how good it is, if it's MIC I'm not touching it



where do you people even come from


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## Andromalia (Jul 6, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Are we thinking a travelling artist would realize the day of a gig in a random country that their guitar and all its backups are somehow broken beyond repair, and they have to rush to the local guitar store to buy one at the last minute?


Wrong scenario.
Good scenario: guitar crate is lost/misplaced by flight company/stolen in the tourbus-van during lunch. Band calls distributor who directs them to a source who will lend a guitar for the rest of the tour.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2021)

Hired Goon said:


> I don't care how good it is, if it's MIC I'm not touching it



Have fun with that.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> where do you people even come from


No the question is actually where do you people come from. If you are ok with supporting and enabling forced labor, atrocious working conditions, genocide, forced sterilization, kidnapping diplomacy, international bullying, Covid cover-ups, then you go ahead and buy that cheap garbage, and support that lovely regime. Now if you are talking about Chinese people, they are great, no issue there. 

Off topic but I'm glad that Suhr didn't lower himself


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 6, 2021)

Hired Goon said:


> No the question is actually where do you people come from. If you are ok with supporting and enabling forced labor, atrocious working conditions, genocide, forced sterilization, kidnapping diplomacy, international bullying, Covid cover-ups, then you go ahead and buy that cheap garbage, and support that lovely regime. Now if you are talking about Chinese people, they are great, no issue there.
> 
> Off topic but I'm glad that Suhr didn't lower himself



HE LITERALLY DID


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## budda (Jul 6, 2021)

Hired Goon said:


> No the question is actually where do you people come from. If you are ok with supporting and enabling forced labor, atrocious working conditions, genocide, forced sterilization, kidnapping diplomacy, international bullying, Covid cover-ups, then you go ahead and buy that cheap garbage, and support that lovely regime. Now if you are talking about Chinese people, they are great, no issue there.
> 
> Off topic but I'm glad that Suhr didn't lower himself



Do you... Not know the history of the EU, Canada and the USA?


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 6, 2021)

budda said:


> Do you... Not know the history of the EU, Canada and the USA?



shitlibs don't know anything.


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## Randy (Jul 6, 2021)

Hired Goon said:


> No the question is actually where do you people come from. If you are ok with supporting and enabling forced labor, atrocious working conditions, genocide, forced sterilization, kidnapping diplomacy, international bullying, Covid cover-ups, then you go ahead and buy that cheap garbage, and support that lovely regime. Now if you are talking about Chinese people, they are great, no issue there.
> 
> Off topic but I'm glad that Suhr didn't lower himself



Drifting a little far into P&CE and also the tone is a little too much for the conversation being had. Everyone can afford to take a breath here.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

budda said:


> Do you... Not know the history of the EU, Canada and the USA?



And it's repeating itself with your financial contribution


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> HE LITERALLY DID


Slow clap, pat yourself on the back


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 6, 2021)

Hired Goon said:


> Slow clap, pat yourself on the back



you realize that Suhr tried to do Chinese production 10 years ago. 

so what you want me to clap myself on the back because you're the worst kind of ignorant fedora tipping shitlib? fine. I'll begrudgingly do that.


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## Matt08642 (Jul 6, 2021)

I would unironically love to support a brand with 100% ethically sourced materials, but that's also a fantasy as long as anything is made of wood or metal or contains any electronics and I consider destroying the planet and deforestation (probably done by low wage workers in 3rd world countries) unethical.

Even brands that don't use wood might be shitting pollution in to the air producing alternative materials, who knows anymore.

Basically:







Baby steps: buy used gear where they don't need to destroy forests and stuff to make it.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

diagrammatiks said:


> you realize that Suhr tried to do Chinese production 10 years ago.
> 
> so what you want me to clap myself on the back because you're the worst kind of ignorant fedora tipping shitlib? fine. I'll begrudgingly do that.



You know what you go ahead and enjoy your Epiphone. Ethical sourcing apparently not your thing huh. Any other names you want to throw at me?


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## mbardu (Jul 6, 2021)

Matt08642 said:


> I would unironically love to support a brand with 100% ethically sourced materials, but that's also a fantasy as long as anything is made of wood or metal or contains any electronics and I consider destroying the planet and deforestation (probably done by low wage workers in 3rd world countries) unethical.
> 
> Even brands that don't use wood might be shitting pollution in to the air producing alternative materials, who knows anymore.
> 
> ...



Baby steps indeed... 
Unfortunately, in the "small" world of guitar, buying a guitar second hand often just shifts other buyers (not you) to buy new (since there are now less options on the used market) and vice versa.

There's no miracle solution, especially because guitarists are the worst offenders in terms of GAS...but at least, and despite the efforts of brands like LTD/Solar/etc with the non-stop new flavor-of-the-week guitars, _at least _guitars are fairly durable and rarely gets thrown away(vs clothes, electronic gadgets, colletibles etc). So a little bit less of a wasteful waste.


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## JSanta (Jul 6, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Baby steps indeed...
> Unfortunately, in the "small" world of guitar, buying a guitar second hand often just shifts other buyers (not you) to buy new (since there are now less options on the used market) and vice versa.
> 
> There's no miracle solution, especially because guitarists are the worst offenders in terms of GAS...but at least, and despite the efforts of brands like LTD/Solar/etc with the non-stop new flavor-of-the-week guitars, _at least _guitars are fairly durable and rarely gets thrown away(vs clothes, electronic gadgets, colletibles etc). So a little bit less of a wasteful waste.



Instrument manufacturing is a only a tiny portion of all of the lumber used in the world. Grabbed this from the Acoustic Guitar forum:

Anyway, this 2007 NY Times article mentions this:

"Mr. Paul [the forest campaign coordinator for Greenpeace] said that the amount of Sitka spruce used by guitar manufacturers is a tiny fraction of the total shipped. As few as 150 logs are enough to supply the whole industry each year. Nearly 80 percent of the spruce cut in Alaska is shipped to Asia, primarily Japan, for home building."

Another article:

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/12/guitar-makers-hit-hard-by-new-regulations-on-prized-rosewood.html

"Most of that wood was headed to China, where rosewood imports jumped 2,000 percent from 2005 to 2014, according to the conservation group Forest Trends . Much of the material went into the making of reproduction hongmu furniture from the Ming and Qing dynasties, a style popular with affluent Chinese.

“These countries didn’t want to wait until their tree species are on the verge of extinction before acting to control the trade. They saw what happened in Asia. There is almost nothing left,” said Susanne Breitkopf, forest campaign policy manager of the nonprofit Environmental Investigation Agency ."

In the bigger scheme of things, guitar makers are not really a player in the destruction of the forests. A manufacturer like Taylor Guitars, for instance, has taken an outsized role in protecting a species like Ebony, so that it is accessible to builders for generations.


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## CanserDYI (Jul 6, 2021)

I'm sure John Suhr has no problem selling guitars.


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## mbardu (Jul 6, 2021)

JSanta said:


> Instrument manufacturing is a only a tiny portion of all of the lumber used in the world. Grabbed this from the Acoustic Guitar forum:
> 
> Anyway, this 2007 NY Times article mentions this:
> 
> ...



Oh for sure, raw lumber volume going into luthiery is tiny. There's still a lot of _other _waste elsewhere at pretty much every step of getting us our guitars though. From design to delivery - from the machines and factories to the electronics and components, to shipping and marketing etc.

No different than a lot of products, for sure; including things that today you cannot really live without lest you become a mountain hermit. And again, guitar is probably far _far _from the worst offender here with the relatively small market and at least inherent durability. It doesn't prevent me from sleeping at night, but it's clearly not 0 impact either.


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## nickgray (Jul 6, 2021)

JSanta said:


> Instrument manufacturing is a only a tiny portion of all of the lumber used in the world



Having worked for a little while in a large commercial kitchen ages ago, I honestly don't think that a lot of people comprehend how large things can get waste wise and inefficiency wise. The sheer amount of food that gets thrown out is staggering. And yet I still get upset when I peel an extra layer of an onion just to get it prepped faster when I cook. It's a psychological problem where you yourself, if you care enough, try to at least somewhat limit waste (and etc.), but in reality your contribution is a fraction of a fraction of a grain of sand on a beach. I also worked in a convenience store for a while, and holy crap, because it was a chain, the manager just did not give a single shit about any kind of efficiency with regards to best before dates. They would just consistently order shit that never got sold, the employees never ever bothered placing the wares according to the best before date, and the end result of it was a monstrous (relative to the store itself) amount of food that literally got wasted because of pure idiocy.

But as far as waste and bad products - my money is on cheap and shitty disposable stuff. Cheap electronics, cheap tools, cheap appliances, cheap everything - shit works for a little while, and then gets thrown out. But then the whole world works like that - short term trumps long term. Until shit gets regulated we'll keep seeing resources go down the drain.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2021)

Still laughing about this.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

Well there is some hope. In the UK they're are working on legislation to require manufacturers to support their products for a much longer period of time. They will need to have parts on hand for possibly 5-10 years. Would be nice if your big screen TV which had crapped out at 14 months (just outside of the 12 month warranty) that you didn't have to take it to the landfill.


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## jl-austin (Jul 6, 2021)

I find it extremely odd that environment concerns are even a topic here, most guitarist are so narrow minded that they think everything should be made like a 50's Les Paul, and any other wood combination is junk.

Personally I welcomed CITES, I was so tired of seeing EVERYTHING being made out of the same materials. 

As far as Ibanez is concerned, they have followed the trends in guitars over the past 40 years as well as anyone. The guitars they've introduced recently are no different, they are following trends. The interesting thing is, unlike the grunge and metal era's, there is a wider variety of guitars available (supposedly, good luck actually finding one) than there ever has been.


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## michael_bolton (Jul 6, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Oh for sure, raw lumber volume going into luthiery is tiny...



even outside of guitar manufacturing - these days in the US overall contribution of logging industry to the deforestation process is negligible and in some (most?) cases is net 0 because guess what - forests grow back given the chance (which is what's been happening in the US for a while now). There is an argument that can be made that after the regrowth the bio/eco-system is not 100% comparable to what it was before but that's a whole another can of worms.

I live in the area where logging and Christmas tree farm industries are pretty big - from what I'm seeing personally there's no net deforestation in the long term that can be attributed to these. stats that I've seen confirm that too.


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## Hired Goon (Jul 6, 2021)

My apologies to all for taking the thread in an uncomfortable direction.


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## Supernaut (Jul 7, 2021)

jl-austin said:


> I find it extremely odd that environment concerns are even a topic here, most guitarist are so narrow minded that they think everything should be made like a 50's Les Paul, and any other wood combination is junk.
> 
> Personally I welcomed CITES, I was so tired of seeing EVERYTHING being made out of the same materials.
> 
> As far as Ibanez is concerned, they have followed the trends in guitars over the past 40 years as well as anyone. The guitars they've introduced recently are no different, they are following trends. The interesting thing is, unlike the grunge and metal era's, there is a wider variety of guitars available (supposedly, good luck actually finding one) than there ever has been.



Yep, and Ibanez is using a lot of locally sourced (Indo) woods for its instruments right now.

To be honest, Ibanez follow trends like any company but it does tend to bring new ideas to the table every now and again, plus bring them to mass market too. As far as I'm concerned the AZ is different enough to a Suhr to not be a blatant rip-off. It's at least a slightly different shape from a Fender Strat on the CNC machine even if it lifted the steel frets and baked maple.


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## eaeolian (Jul 7, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just the fact everyone instantly thinks "Suhr" when any company makes a pickguard-less super Strat with a two point trem is enough to cement how "not bothered" they are with endorsement drama.



Seriously. It's very clear the Ibbys and Charvels are "budget lining" the style of those instruments.


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## Heart Of The Sunrise (Jul 7, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> People don't buy Suhr (or any of the boutiques) because so and so plays them, they buy them because they're exceptional guitars.





budda said:


> Still laughing about this.



I never said once that Suhr is losing business or would lose business because some people stopped playing their guitars or because other brands made copies. The only thing I "felt bad" about was that people used to "rep" Suhrs a lot more and it probably feels good to see so many pros all collectively using your guitars. Again, saying that I "felt bad" was stupid wording and not reflective of my feelings, but I can't go back and change the title of the thread after all. So laugh away at my supposed "misery" for a prestigious and successful company, I guess I should have thought more carefully.

Also props to the dunce who managed to shift the thread into a discussion about the ethics of buying a Chinese-made instrument. Made it a much more interesting read overall.


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## bigbusterstar (Jul 7, 2021)

I only feel sorta sorry that they lost Guthrie Govan. They lost some real big dick energy that day...

As for the "dunce", who cares. I'm pretty sure he only pops in to comment when he wants to get on a soap box ranting about some nonsense. Even derailed another thread hard enough to get it locked. Eh.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 7, 2021)

Heart Of The Sunrise said:


> I never said once that Suhr is losing business or would lose business because some people stopped playing their guitars or because other brands made copies. The only thing I "felt bad" about was that people used to "rep" Suhrs a lot more and it probably feels good to see so many pros all collectively using your guitars. Again, saying that I "felt bad" was stupid wording and not reflective of my feelings, but I can't go back and change the title of the thread after all. So laugh away at my supposed "misery" for a prestigious and successful company, I guess I should have thought more carefully.
> 
> Also props to the dunce who managed to shift the thread into a discussion about the ethics of buying a Chinese-made instrument. Made it a much more interesting read overall.



The thing is, if you knew Suhr (the man and the company) you'd understand how completely un-bothered they are about artist movement and drama.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jul 8, 2021)

It seems strange to care this much about endorsees knowing full well they are completely bought out in discounts/free gear to play a brand's instruments.

Anything short of a long term commitment (Vai/Satriani/Petrucci) means nothing to me as an individual. Artists are fickle and indeed they should be, their career path isn't a lucrative one so a deal where they get supplied more instruments is obviously a smarter choice. I just won't believe any over produced announcement video where "best ever" claims are being tossed around.

Also I've owned two AZ2402's and while *good*, they were not in the same league as any single Suhr I've ever owned. It's a godsend that once niche specs are now more common, and at price points that benefit everyone. But I certainly don't feel bad for Suhr, they aren't hurting, and both products/brands are thriving in their own markets.


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## bigcupholder (Jul 8, 2021)

You have to give Ibanez credit for staying relevant. Unlike Gibson and Fender, who I'd guess are the only bigger guitar companies by sales volume, Ibanez doesn't have a guitar that they could churn out for decades unchanged and sell at a premium based on nostalgia alone. They constantly reinvent themselves, take risks and, yes, throw cash at endorsement deals. That's business.

TLDR: just be glad Ibanez isn't trying to be like Fender or Gibson.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jul 8, 2021)

bigcupholder said:


> You have to give Ibanez credit for staying relevant. Unlike Gibson and Fender, who I'd guess are the only bigger guitar companies by sales volume, Ibanez doesn't have a guitar that they could churn out for decades unchanged and sell at a premium based on nostalgia alone. They constantly reinvent themselves, take risks and, yes, throw cash at endorsement deals. That's business.
> 
> TLDR: just be glad Ibanez isn't trying to be like Fender or Gibson.



Fender are fine. They've got Jackson, Charvel, EVH, Gretch, Guild, Squier etc as their subsidiaries so they can cast a wide net. With those subsidiaries catering to different players (Charvel is covering the Suhr inspired market) Fender can easily focus on their core traditional lineup that let's face it, still popular to this day.


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## sakeido (Jul 8, 2021)

axil said:


> I only feel sorta sorry that they lost Guthrie Govan. They lost some real big dick energy that day...


I dunno seeing the guy lately, I don't think you really want him as a spokesperson for your company anyways ... dude is so bitter and jaded it's ridiculous

Maybe I just went on a run of watching vids of him when he was in a bad mood but he was so negative he didn't make me want to play a guitar, never mind buy one


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## CanserDYI (Jul 8, 2021)

sakeido said:


> I dunno seeing the guy lately, I don't think you really want him as a spokesperson for your company anyways ... dude is so bitter and jaded it's ridiculous
> 
> Maybe I just went on a run of watching vids of him when he was in a bad mood but he was so negative he didn't make me want to play a guitar, never mind buy one


Can you link these? Because the ones i've seen of him ages ago I thought he sounded super positive! lol


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## bigbusterstar (Jul 8, 2021)

sakeido said:


> I dunno seeing the guy lately, I don't think you really want him as a spokesperson for your company anyways ... dude is so bitter and jaded it's ridiculous
> 
> Maybe I just went on a run of watching vids of him when he was in a bad mood but he was so negative he didn't make me want to play a guitar, never mind buy one



Huh, interesting. I honestly haven't kept up with his activities since The Aristocrats' 3rd album. Went to see them live on that tour and that show was the nail in the coffin: I'm not so into fusion virtuoso compositions anymore. And then he joined freaking Steven Wilson (ugh). 

Not to throw extra shade but Marco Minneman recently said he doesn't get along with Wilson. Perhaps all that working together has turned Govan sour? Lmao

I would also be interested in seeing bitter jaded Govan if you have links.


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## sakeido (Jul 8, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Can you link these? Because the ones i've seen of him ages ago I thought he sounded super positive! lol





axil said:


> Huh, interesting. I honestly haven't kept up with his activities since The Aristocrats' 3rd album. Went to see them live on that tour and that show was the nail in the coffin: I'm not so into fusion virtuoso compositions anymore. And then he joined freaking Steven Wilson (ugh).
> 
> Not to throw extra shade but Marco Minneman recently said he doesn't get along with Wilson. Perhaps all that working together has turned Govan sour? Lmao
> 
> I would also be interested in seeing bitter jaded Govan if you have links.



There's a series of him sitting in a gazebo for a G4 bootcamp but watching it back, I'm sure they are just very (very) dry jokes. So I musta been an uncharitable mood when I was watching it. Maybe jealous of his immaculate playing.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jul 9, 2021)

bigcupholder said:


> You have to give Ibanez credit for staying relevant. Unlike Gibson and Fender, who I'd guess are the only bigger guitar companies by sales volume, Ibanez doesn't have a guitar that they could churn out for decades unchanged and sell at a premium based on nostalgia alone. They constantly reinvent themselves, take risks and, yes, throw cash at endorsement deals. That's business.
> 
> TLDR: just be glad Ibanez isn't trying to be like Fender or Gibson.



You're over-valuing a largely unnecessary need to break from the mold, the audience is largely conventional in their desires. The same guy who wants a 3 Pickup Black Beauty/Cherry Red ES335/Daphne Blue Tele/Sunburst Strat isn't going to break from those desires over time, and that's the demographic they cater to.

Gibson and Fender have arguably done far more *interesting *concepts than Ibanez and other modern companies have. Reactionary and extremely late to the party releases of products with Multiscale/Headless/Poplar Burl/Roasted Maple/Stainless Steel Frets to follow industry trends is just a move towards relevancy. That doesn't discredit what cool releases Ibanez has done, but in the same way you're criticizing the larger brand for releasing redundant after redundant model, the brands on you praise do as well. But the mainstream brands don't have to worry about relevancy, because they were never irrelevant from market share perspective in the first place.

I think you're just ascribing niche forum relevancy more importance than it deserves having


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## HoneyNut (Jul 9, 2021)

sakeido said:


> I dunno seeing the guy lately, I don't think you really want him as a spokesperson for your company anyways ... dude is so bitter and jaded it's ridiculous
> 
> Maybe I just went on a run of watching vids of him when he was in a bad mood but he was so negative he didn't make me want to play a guitar, never mind buy one


GG bitter? Where? I never got that feeling that he was bitter. Which interview/video are you talking about?

Edit: I see you are talking about the G4 series on YT. No he wasn't bitter there. Plus, he was happy someone gave him a beer.


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## mastapimp (Jul 9, 2021)

sakeido said:


> There's a series of him sitting in a gazebo for a G4 bootcamp but watching it back, I'm sure they are just very (very) dry jokes. So I musta been an uncharitable mood when I was watching it. Maybe jealous of his immaculate playing.


I've seen him a handful of times and spoken to him after some shows and he's been a great guy each and every time. He does get upset when people whip out their cell phones and film him while he's on stage. I've been to at least 2 Aristocrats shows with a no phone recording policy and have seen Guthrie shoot a nasty glance or finger wag when people don't respect the rules.


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## Mwoit (Jul 9, 2021)

sakeido said:


> There's a series of him sitting in a gazebo for a G4 bootcamp but watching it back, I'm sure they are just very (very) dry jokes. So I musta been an uncharitable mood when I was watching it. Maybe jealous of his immaculate playing.



Not having read the entire thread, but GG is incredibly British and I'll chalk it down to that English wit, real dry sarcasm haha.


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## Lemonbaby (Jul 9, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Their main target audience is wealthy "older" players who couldn't care less about any modern endorser, so any impact of AZs or DKs will be truly minuscule in terms of demand.


This. I see them targetting the same type of customers as PRS with their Core series. Mostly old bums who just happen to have enough money and want a nice guitar... like myself.


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## Thaeon (Jul 9, 2021)

Supernaut said:


> Somebody in this thread already mentioned that Suhr doesn't do traditional endorsement deals (think it was Max), so it's likely a touring artist will have to pay for backups out of their own pocket with Suhr. No financially responsible touring artist who's just starting out is going to pay for a top-end Suhr when they can get multiple functionally fine guitars for free that get the job done.
> 
> Realistically speaking - how many 'backups' are you going to get through Suhr versus a deal with Ibanez or Fender? What about if you want something with a few different pickup configs? Ibanez could literally send you one of dozens of production guitars right off the shelf anywhere in the world. Gear gets stolen? Bummer, but your guitar is easily replaceable.



If you’re playing shows on gear like a Suhr, you should be insuring it. Most of these tours have some kind of business insurance as well. You have to to not be in violation of a lot of laws and putting yourself in a particularly dangerous legal place liability wise. Get insurance. Mine is less than $20 a month and covers all of my kit.


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## dreamspace (Jul 11, 2021)

Tbh, I'm happy that a lot of these online shredders/influencers are going with more affordable import signature / endorsement guitars from brands like Ibanez / Charvel / Jackson / etc. 

Boutique brands like Suhr / Tom Anderson / James Tyler / etc. make fantastic guitars - I've owned multiple of each, and given financial situation, I'd probably want to only own those guitars. But that's not realistic for the majority of the world - some player outside the western world will probably never be able to purchase a $5000 custom Suhr. 

And with that said, those boutique brands know their audience. They know damn well that it's not 18 year olds kids that are purchasing their stuff, and they've spent 35-40 year building their brands and reputation, so their guitars are almost selling themselves at this point. They're not gonna go away anytime soon, and those buying $800 MiI Charvel or Ibanez guitars aren't exactly the same people that'd spend all their money at Suhr/TA/etc. shops.


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## Stiman (Nov 23, 2021)

jl-austin said:


> I don't care what it is, there will always be more $1000 guitars sold than $3000 to $4000 guitars.
> 
> After playing (and owning) a MIM Charvel, I have zero interest in what Suhr is doing.



On a similar note, having just bought a MIM DK24, I'm looking at the Rick Graham Signature DK24 and scratching my head as to why it's more than double the price. Just because it's made in Japan??


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## Jeffrey Bain (Nov 23, 2021)

Stiman said:


> On a similar note, having just bought a MIM DK24, I'm looking at the Rick Graham Signature DK24 and scratching my head as to why it's more than double the price. Just because it's made in Japan??


That's correct; MIJ just fetch that price point


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## HoneyNut (Nov 24, 2021)

Stiman said:


> On a similar note, having just bought a MIM DK24, I'm looking at the Rick Graham Signature DK24 and scratching my head as to why it's more than double the price. Just because it's made in Japan??



And there's also the USA DK24 which differs with a flamed neck and stainless steel for more than double the price of the MIM DK24s. 

This is simply how dumb the guitar market is. It's just a piece of wood. Yet, prices vary depending on where it's made. 

Any product, with all its components, as long as it's maintains a level of quality control, should not be priced differently based on where it is made. That's not the case for smartphones. But it is the case for guitars. 

It's just our biased perception of where it's made inflates or deflates the price of a guitar. 

A cup of coffee should be priced equally, but again, economic factors come into play. Maybe I need to study on why the price of a cup of coffee varies from place to place. 

Regardless, while the Rick Graham model is cool, I don't understand why being MIJ is so much more fashionable than MIM. It's simply because of the history of manufacturing guitars that's associated with Japan. And it's a dumb bias to have.

Take an Ibanez RG. Just make the MIJ models in Indonesia with the same QC controls and Original Edge and Wizard neck, it'll be the same as the MIJ model. The only differentiating factor is that it is simply MIJ that enables them to charge higher prices, and we MIJ (or MIA) owners have bragging rights. It's just dumb.


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## Adieu (Nov 24, 2021)

And just make Gibsons at the Chibson plant in Shenzhen


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## laxu (Nov 24, 2021)

HoneyNut said:


> Any product, with all its components, as long as it's maintains a level of quality control, should not be priced differently based on where it is made. That's not the case for smartphones. But it is the case for guitars.
> 
> Take an Ibanez RG. Just make the MIJ models in Indonesia with the same QC controls and Original Edge and Wizard neck, it'll be the same as the MIJ model. The only differentiating factor is that it is simply MIJ that enables them to charge higher prices, and we MIJ (or MIA) owners have bragging rights. It's just dumb.



It's a question of labor costs. A living wage in China, Indonesia etc is going to be much less money than in Japan. So even for what ends up being the same product in terms of quality, it's just impossible to make it as cheaply in Japan, USA or most of Europe.

Brands that make guitars in multiple countries often have quality tiers or sub-brands (e.g. ESP vs LTD) in their product lineup to avoid diluting the top level stuff.

For many folks brand and country of manufacture are "value added" where they feel they get a higher quality product if it says e.g. Fender and made in USA on the headstock. Had they bought the made in Mexico Fender they would still be wondering what they are missing out on by not getting the US made one. These choices are often not rational and many on this board (including me) are just as guilty of it. It works both ways where you feel like you have "cheated the system" by being in "the know" and buying that cheaper Ibanez AS over that expensive Suhr.


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## HoneyNut (Nov 25, 2021)

laxu said:


> It works both ways where you feel like you have "cheated the system" by being in "the know" and buying that cheaper Ibanez AS over that expensive Suhr.



Really well put!


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## Chris Brooks (Sep 9, 2022)

Heart Of The Sunrise said:


> Seeing the new Ibanez headless models got me thinking about how in the past couple of years Ibanez and Charvel have managed to grab quite a few "2nd wave shredders" (basically the fusion-inspired shred players that came on the scene in the mid-late 00s and gained prominence in the 10s) who previously either endorsed or frequently played Suhr by coming out with the AZ and DK lines respectively. Basically the general characteristics of Suhrs as compared to the major manufacturers were the roasted maple necks, SS frets, transparent finished bodies, and pickups that lean to the "hot" side but are generally more versatile than their metal-oriented counterparts. Obviously, Ibanez and FMC took note of this popularity and came out with their takes on this style of guitar, and were able to gain a bunch of former Suhr artists with better endorsement deals (since they have larger budgets).
> 
> All of the "Suhr converts" I can think of off the top of my head: Guthrie Govan (Charvel Sig), Martin Miller (Ibanez AZ sig), Tom Quayle (Ibanez AZ sig), Rick Graham (Charvel DK24), Lari Basilio (Ibanez AZ sig), Jack Gardiner (Ibanez AZ), Chris Brooks (Charvel DK) (Chris mostly played Ibbys, but I remember Suhrs in the rotation too).
> 
> ...



I actually had a weird exit from owning and playing Suhr. I was looked after well by Ed Yoon for guitars, amps and pedals but when he left the company, a guy from internal sales became the "artist relations" manager by default. He sent out this really degrading survey to a bunch of us that was worded like "It's come to our attention that many players are calling themselves Suhr artists, so we'd like to assess that for the future dealings and what it means to be a Suhr artist". In other words, who is your daddy and what does he do? The old website with all our names on it was quickly deleted.

I got early vibes that this guy had a dismissive style and, as it turns out, he didn't think I was successful enough to deal with him and it was suggested that I visit a music store for all future purchases. I'm not too cool or important to do that and I support retail stores too, but the attitude and power trip had me listing my Suhr stuff on feebay the same week. There's a way to talk to people still building their profiles and that isn't it. They didn't like how liberal Ed might have been with supporting emerging players, but it didn't mean the baby had to get thrown out with the bath water.

I don't know how long he (the second guy) stayed in that position, but I guess they realised the internet was a thing because more and more online creators were "allowed" in their circle of artists and now wholeheartedly embraced.

I didn't own any Ibanez while I played Suhr. I just had a PRS. I've had Charvels for 10 years now and it's been cool watching a lot of my friends move that way too.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 9, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> I actually had a weird exit from owning and playing Suhr. I was looked after well by Ed Yoon for guitars, amps and pedals but when he left the company, a guy from internal sales became the "artist relations" manager by default. He sent out this really degrading survey to a bunch of us that was worded like "It's come to our attention that many players are calling themselves Suhr artists, so we'd like to assess that for the future dealings and what it means to be a Suhr artist". In other words, who is your daddy and what does he do? The old website with all our names on it was quickly deleted.
> 
> I got early vibes that this guy had a dismissive style and, as it turns out, he didn't think I was successful enough to deal with him and it was suggested that I visit a music store for all future purchases. I'm not too cool or important to do that and I support retail stores too, but the attitude and power trip had me listing my Suhr stuff on feebay the same week. There's a way to talk to people still building their profiles and that isn't it. They didn't like how liberal Ed might have been with supporting emerging players, but it didn't mean the baby had to get thrown out with the bath water.
> 
> ...


I would've told internal sales to take my foot internal, akin to Red Foreman's typical go to retorts. I don't take being talked down to by some goofball too well, and I would've made sure he knew exactly what I thought of him.


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## Chris Brooks (Sep 9, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I would've told internal sales to take my foot internal, akin to Red Foreman's typical go to retorts. I don't take being talked down to by some goofball too well, and I would've made sure he knew exactly what I thought of him.



That's always an option but I went with "I think I'll go in a new direction" instead. Then I went outside and kicked a trash can haha.


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## technomancer (Sep 9, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> I actually had a weird exit from owning and playing Suhr. I was looked after well by Ed Yoon for guitars, amps and pedals but when he left the company, a guy from internal sales became the "artist relations" manager by default. He sent out this really degrading survey to a bunch of us that was worded like "It's come to our attention that many players are calling themselves Suhr artists, so we'd like to assess that for the future dealings and what it means to be a Suhr artist". In other words, who is your daddy and what does he do? The old website with all our names on it was quickly deleted.
> 
> I got early vibes that this guy had a dismissive style and, as it turns out, he didn't think I was successful enough to deal with him and it was suggested that I visit a music store for all future purchases. I'm not too cool or important to do that and I support retail stores too, but the attitude and power trip had me listing my Suhr stuff on feebay the same week. There's a way to talk to people still building their profiles and that isn't it. They didn't like how liberal Ed might have been with supporting emerging players, but it didn't mean the baby had to get thrown out with the bath water.
> 
> ...



Wow that sucks.

Welcome to the forum Chris, love your books


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## Chris Brooks (Sep 9, 2022)

technomancer said:


> Wow that sucks.
> 
> Welcome to the forum Chris, love your books



Thanks so much. I signed up here a decade ago and just forgot haha. Forums are way cooler than social media so I need to start hanging out here.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 9, 2022)

technomancer said:


> Wow that sucks.
> 
> Welcome to the forum Chris, love your books


Books?


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## technomancer (Sep 9, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Books?



Instructional books.


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## Chris Brooks (Sep 9, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Books?



Writing guitar technique books is my main gig these days. I won't spam but my name on Amazon will bring up about a dozen of them.


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## jaxadam (Sep 9, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Books?



Brooks


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## tian (Sep 9, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> Writing guitar technique books is my main gig these days. I won't spam but my name on Amazon will bring up about a dozen of them.


Was browsing and was like, "damn I want all of these..." and then found the compilations. Great stuff.


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## BaliGod (Sep 9, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> I actually had a weird exit from owning and playing Suhr. I was looked after well by Ed Yoon for guitars, amps and pedals but when he left the company, a guy from internal sales became the "artist relations" manager by default. He sent out this really degrading survey to a bunch of us that was worded like "It's come to our attention that many players are calling themselves Suhr artists, so we'd like to assess that for the future dealings and what it means to be a Suhr artist". In other words, who is your daddy and what does he do? The old website with all our names on it was quickly deleted.
> 
> I got early vibes that this guy had a dismissive style and, as it turns out, he didn't think I was successful enough to deal with him and it was suggested that I visit a music store for all future purchases. I'm not too cool or important to do that and I support retail stores too, but the attitude and power trip had me listing my Suhr stuff on feebay the same week. There's a way to talk to people still building their profiles and that isn't it. They didn't like how liberal Ed might have been with supporting emerging players, but it didn't mean the baby had to get thrown out with the bath water.
> 
> ...



That doesn't surprise me after my brief dealings with Suhr. This in my opinion is more a top-down mentality than one may realize as decisions about mailers such as that are cleared at and decided on at all levels. Been in the biz a long time, 7 years touring and 26 years as entertainment lawyer after my band's flavor of music was replaced by 90s grunge. I represented several large instrument mfgs in intellectual property and employment matters even though most of my firm's focus was on protecting the individual artists' intellectual property rights (copyright and royalty).

Based on my experience, all employment and agency relations decisions, such as those that impacted you, are profit margin driven and well thought out. All written documents on such matters are carefully worded, reviewed and revised at many levels. This was not the action of a single individual . . . unless it backfires and a company needs a PR scapegoat.

Suhr has it followers, but the reality is their products are not that great . . . or let me rephrase it, not that far separated from guitars much cheaper. They also lack in customer service IMO as evidenced by burning bridges with artist and my brief dealings with them where I felt a similar arrogance mentality from the owner. Having a visible presence on a few forums neither overcomes their rapidly dwindling separation from budget lines or how they treat consumers/artists behind the scenes when there is a problem.

Leaner industry times are approaching perhaps for all, but especially those in higher end markets that make serious misteps. Competition is now brutal, and growing more brutal, in price versus quality and bad decisions are widely publicized on the Net.


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## technomancer (Sep 9, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Brooks



Chris Brooks


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 9, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> Writing guitar technique books is my main gig these days. I won't spam but my name on Amazon will bring up about a dozen of them.


Just bought 3 digital books of yours on Amazon


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## jaxadam (Sep 9, 2022)

I really like Chris Brooks’ cookbooks, especially the one “How To Be a Suhr Thing in the Kitchen”


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## Chris Brooks (Sep 9, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> Just bought 3 digital books of yours on Amazon



That's awesome. Much appreciated! Hope you get tons of value from them.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 9, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Brooks


Werewolf?

There, wolf. There, wolf. There, wolf.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Sep 9, 2022)

technomancer said:


> Chris Brooks


Rakin', not slurred.


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## rokket2005 (Sep 9, 2022)

I never explicitly heard what happened with Suhr, but it seemed like there were some shady things going on probably around 2012-13 when Tom Quayle, Martin Miller, and Rick Graham all went from playing Suhr to not playing them within the span of 2 weeks. I'm not sure if that lines up with your timeframe of exiting their artist roster, but it's interesting that Ed leaving essentially dismantled their entire artist roster down to just Pete Thorn, who by his account is actually good friends with John Suhr.


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 9, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> That's awesome. Much appreciated! Hope you get tons of value from them.



I have two babies under two so I will likely forget I have them in my kindle library for a while and hopefully get to use them eventually


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## broj15 (Sep 10, 2022)

Late to the party and I haven't read the 6 pages of comments before me, but in regards Ibanez "having the math rock market cornered" because of endorsement deals with the polyphia & chon dudes all I'll say is this: Real math rockers will always play telecasters with capos & even if those kids invented shredding over trap beats they didn't invent gratuitous amounts of tapping in weird time signatures ;^).


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## Lord Voldemort (Sep 10, 2022)

I really want to play a Suhr, but for a long period of time. I feel like they're one of those brands that's always put on a huge pedestal of quality by everyone that plays them, and everytime I seek a brand like that out I'm always left wondering what all the fuss is about. Mind you all I can usually try out are things like PRS Private Stocks or the occasional Suhr when I stumble upon them in the wild, hard to get your hands on a Mayones or Aristides or whatever. 

There's such unanimous high regard for Suhr that I'd be dumb _ not_ to believe it, but you just need more than 5 minutes with a guitar sometimes for those difference makers to start showing up.


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 10, 2022)

I want that custom 7 string Suhr someone posted in the GAS thread that was built for a suhr employee. So sick.


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## RevelGTR (Sep 10, 2022)

Chris Brooks said:


> I actually had a weird exit from owning and playing Suhr. I was looked after well by Ed Yoon for guitars, amps and pedals but when he left the company, a guy from internal sales became the "artist relations" manager by default. He sent out this really degrading survey to a bunch of us that was worded like "It's come to our attention that many players are calling themselves Suhr artists, so we'd like to assess that for the future dealings and what it means to be a Suhr artist". In other words, who is your daddy and what does he do? The old website with all our names on it was quickly deleted.
> 
> I got early vibes that this guy had a dismissive style and, as it turns out, he didn't think I was successful enough to deal with him and it was suggested that I visit a music store for all future purchases. I'm not too cool or important to do that and I support retail stores too, but the attitude and power trip had me listing my Suhr stuff on feebay the same week. There's a way to talk to people still building their profiles and that isn't it. They didn't like how liberal Ed might have been with supporting emerging players, but it didn't mean the baby had to get thrown out with the bath water.
> 
> ...


Was this person the same guy who chased Guthrie away?


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## jco5055 (Sep 10, 2022)

Lord Voldemort said:


> I really want to play a Suhr, but for a long period of time. I feel like they're one of those brands that's always put on a huge pedestal of quality by everyone that plays them, and everytime I seek a brand like that out I'm always left wondering what all the fuss is about. Mind you all I can usually try out are things like PRS Private Stocks or the occasional Suhr when I stumble upon them in the wild, hard to get your hands on a Mayones or Aristides or whatever.
> 
> There's such unanimous high regard for Suhr that I'd be dumb _ not_ to believe it, but you just need more than 5 minutes with a guitar sometimes for those difference makers to start showing up.


Don't get me wrong they are great guitars, but when I was playing a few Moderns at Chicago Music Exchange and was like "these are really nice" I was still confused when I saw the price tag at almost $5k...I assumed they were like mid 3s or so.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> Don't get me wrong they are great guitars, but when I was playing a few Moderns at Chicago Music Exchange and was like "these are really nice" I was still confused when I saw the price tag at almost $5k...I assumed they were like mid 3s or so.



Two consecutive 15% to 20% base price hikes in the last three years has really driven the prices up. 

They still start at $3500, so if you play with specs you can keep them under $4k fairly easily. 

It wasn't too long ago that they started at $2500 though.

Everything is so much more expensive now though. A PRS CU24 starts at like $4300 now, and jumps to over $5k for a "10-Top". Heck E-IIs are $3200 now.


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## BaliGod (Sep 10, 2022)

Lord Voldemort said:


> I really want to play a Suhr, but for a long period of time. I feel like they're one of those brands that's always put on a huge pedestal of quality by everyone that plays them, and everytime I seek a brand like that out I'm always left wondering what all the fuss is about. Mind you all I can usually try out are things like PRS Private Stocks or the occasional Suhr when I stumble upon them in the wild, hard to get your hands on a Mayones or Aristides or whatever.
> 
> There's such unanimous high regard for Suhr that I'd be dumb _ not_ to believe it, but you just need more than 5 minutes with a guitar sometimes for those difference makers to start showing up.



I bought one new (Modern), had it for about 30 days, upgraded the bridge to an Aldrich pickup had my tech since the 80s go over it as he has all of my guitars since the 80s. Just never gelled with it and traded for an ESP at about $1,000 loss. Only guitar I have not kept for at least a year. Traded because I knew I would never play it given my other choices in my racks.

I hear others all the time reporting they were not blown away or super impressed by Suhrs as well.

RE: Ibanez as a Cheaper Alternative???

The pickup I took out of the Modern (SSH+), I put in my Ibanez RG620QM. I put the Aldrich in the Modern hoping it would sound better with he upgraded pickup. It didn't, but the SSH+ sounded killer in the RG620. The RG went from anemic to brutal so I decided to keep it and ditch the Suhr at a huge $$$ loss.

I sat down with the Suhr and 3 other cheaper Strat models I had in my home studio before deciding to trade it. This was after spending a month it. I spent about an hour or so with each guitar laying tracks and playing through different amps (Triple Crown, Friedman JJ, Vox AC, Tech 21). I took this photo from my home studio the night I did the Suhr taste test. The Suhr with the upgraded Aldrich came out last in playability and 3rd in sound.


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## Lord Voldemort (Sep 10, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> Don't get me wrong they are great guitars, but when I was playing a few Moderns at Chicago Music Exchange and was like "these are really nice" I was still confused when I saw the price tag at almost $5k...I assumed they were like mid 3s or so.





BaliGod said:


> I bought one new (Modern), had it for about 30 days, upgraded the bridge to an Aldrich pickup had my tech since the 80s go over it as he has all of my guitars since the 80s. Just never gelled with it and traded for an ESP at about $1,000 loss. Only guitar I have not kept for at least a year. Traded because I knew I would never play it given my other choices in my racks.
> 
> I hear others all the time reporting they were not blown away or super impressed by Suhrs as well.
> 
> ...



I had the same impression with my short time playing them. In Seattle there was this great store called the guitar store and they'd often have really niche, expensive instruments right on the walls so I'd often pick em up and just play a bit. I don't think that's enough exposure to really say how good a guitar is, as I was saying, but every time I had a PRS Private Stock or Suhr or Anderson it just was a really nice guitar, nothing more nothing less. Some of the PRS Private Stocks had some unreal wood selections though, the tops in particular on some of them were like something out of the Webb Telescope so I'll give them that.

A lot of people that I know and genuinely trust the opinions of will tell you that Suhr is just the absolute cream the crop as I say. I still feel like I'm missing something with the over 3k guitars in terms of what specific metric people use to say that they're better than say the 2k range, but I'm sure it's there to a degree and I really want to pick a guitar up and experience it. I definitely see it going from 1k to 2k, no doubt, but so far past that it's been pretty diminutive.

I'm more of a player than collector though, maybe that's my problem. Just don't value the small details like some people might.


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## oremus91 (Sep 10, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> Don't get me wrong they are great guitars, but when I was playing a few Moderns at Chicago Music Exchange and was like "these are really nice" I was still confused when I saw the price tag at almost $5k...I assumed they were like mid 3s or so.



They were mid 3s not long ago, their more "standard" lines made the same way with limited specs still are 3. Also no one listen to BaliGod, the dude is deranged.



Lord Voldemort said:


> A lot of people that I know and genuinely trust the opinions of will tell you that Suhr is just the absolute cream the crop as I say. I still feel like I'm missing something with the over 3k guitars in terms of what specific metric people use to say that they're better than say the 2k range, but I'm sure it's there to a degree and I really want to pick a guitar up and experience it. I definitely see it going from 1k to 2k, no doubt, but so far past that it's been pretty diminutive.
> 
> I'm more of a player than collector though, maybe that's my problem. Just don't value the small details like some people might.



There's huge diminishing returns as the price raises with guitars, I'm a huge fan of Suhr, but I wouldn't call them "cream of the crop", those who do have a preference for Suhr specs, but misunderstand a preference as some objective truth.

Also I would argue that players value the small details (radius, fret edge roll, overall perceived quality, etc), but again these are just specs you can get at many price ranges. There's so many trade offs in this market, there's really no right option. Suhr used to be more distinct before every manufacturer started churning a stainless fret, roasted neck, middle of the road radius superstrat (hence this thread).


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2022)

Lord Voldemort said:


> I had the same impression with my short time playing them. In Seattle there was this great store called the guitar store and they'd often have really niche, expensive instruments right on the walls so I'd often pick em up and just play a bit. I don't think that's enough exposure to really say how good a guitar is, as I was saying, but every time I had a PRS Private Stock or Suhr or Anderson it just was a really nice guitar, nothing more nothing less. Some of the PRS Private Stocks had some unreal wood selections though, the tops in particular on some of them were like something out of the Webb Telescope so I'll give them that.
> 
> A lot of people that I know and genuinely trust the opinions of will tell you that Suhr is just the absolute cream the crop as I say. I still feel like I'm missing something with the over 3k guitars in terms of what specific metric people use to say that they're better than say the 2k range, but I'm sure it's there to a degree and I really want to pick a guitar up and experience it. I definitely see it going from 1k to 2k, no doubt, but so far past that it's been pretty diminutive.
> 
> I'm more of a player than collector though, maybe that's my problem. Just don't value the small details like some people might.



I don't think there is much of a difference in raw quality between $2k and $3k today, cheaper stuff has gotten so much better and the available options and configurations compared to 20 years ago is absolutely nuts.

The biggest driver for going "boutique" in the 90's was that they offered what other brands didn't, and were actually the more value conscious option compared to mainstream custom shops.

Full disclosure, I have a few Suhrs, but when I bought them no one was offering a high end, bolt-on, 7-string with Floyd and 24 frets. No one. How crazy is that?


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## BaliGod (Sep 10, 2022)

oremus91 said:


> They were mid 3s not long ago, their more "standard" lines made the same way with limited specs still are 3. Also no one listen to BaliGod, the dude is deranged.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're a huge Suhr fan, I am not so I am deranged? Deranged apparently = success, good choices and industry longevity. If what I am living is deranged, I'll take more brother.

Funny how if some criticize Suhr, there are the few ready to burn them at the stake. I think the true deranged by definition are those troubled by my opinions no matter how I express them.


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## narad (Sep 10, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> You're a huge Suhr fan, I am not so I am deranged? Deranged apparently = success, good choices and industry longevity. If what I am living is deranged, I'll take more brother.
> 
> Funny how if some criticize Suhr, there are the few ready to burn them at the stake. I think the true deranged by definition are those troubled by my opinions no matter how I express them.



Is it? I think it's funny that one person's opinion is supposed to be fact. I went to a michelin star restaurant. I would have preferred nachos bell grande. That experience doesn't make the restaurant shit or negate literally thousands of satisfied customers opinions. It does not make anyone who enjoyed it a shill or a fanboi. Just literally a different viewpoint on a subjective thing. 

And man, don't get me started on the color green vs the color blue.

So yea, we've been down this road before. I'm just confused why you are out on multiple forums trying to burn Suhr as a brand rather than simply accept that it's not your thing.


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

Dude literally says “I wouldnt call them cream of the crop”  damn


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## BaliGod (Sep 10, 2022)

narad said:


> Is it? I think it's funny that one person's opinion is supposed to be fact. I went to a michelin star restaurant. I would have preferred nachos bell grande. That experience doesn't make the restaurant shit or negate literally thousands of satisfied customers opinions. It does not make anyone who enjoyed it a shill or a fanboi. Just literally a different viewpoint on a subjective thing.
> 
> And man, don't get me started on the color green vs the color blue.
> 
> So yea, we've been down this road before. I'm just confused why you are out on multiple forums trying to burn Suhr as a brand rather than simply accept that it's not your thing.



I don't start threads on Suhr, didn't start the discussion here and I never bring anything up about Suhr unless someone is asking for opinions.

Above, there was discussion about whether lower priced Ibanez could be viewed as an alternative to Suhr with increasing quality in the lower price brackets. I posted my experience consistent with that. Not sure why that bothers you or anyone else.

Why do you care? Why the need to make it personal if you disagree with me? Who cares what I post or where I post it?

There is obviously something personal you and the other guy having zilch to do with guitars that makes you feel the need to come at me on a personal level. Making me feel like I should take you guys out and buy you beers and let your cry about it and get it all out.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Sep 10, 2022)

@BaliGod it's because you post these weirdly long rambling crusade messages every time Suhr is mentioned like it's your personal job to warn people of the evils John has inflicted upon the world.

A simple "I bought one, didn't like it. I think there are better options for the price" would suffice.


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## narad (Sep 10, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> I don't start threads on Suhr, didn't start the discussion here and I never bring anything up about Suhr unless someone is asking for opinions.
> 
> Above, there was discussion about whether lower priced Ibanez could be viewed as an alternative to Suhr with increasing quality in the lower price brackets. I posted my experience consistent with that. Not sure why that bothers you or anyone else.
> 
> ...



Like the last time you were talking about this, it's just getting too meta for me. That this Suhr story comes up every time, and when guys say, "I don't know man -- Suhr is pretty much universally respected as a quality brand, if not the right guitar for everyone", _those_ are the guys that are the army of rabid defenders that are making it personal? I don't need to be gaslit over comparing the quality of guitars 

You're right in that the quality of Suhr is getting closer to the quality of ~$1k guitars. But that's not really Suhr's fault -- those $1k guitars are just getting better. No one making $4k+ guitars is putting any distance on the import stuff in terms of quality, and Suhr is just one of many such companies.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2022)

Ugh. This again...


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## jaxadam (Sep 10, 2022)

All I know about Suhr is they have never done anything for me to make me want to have one.


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## BaliGod (Sep 10, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> All I know about Suhr is they have never done anything for me to make me want to have one.



Shyte guys, attack this @#@&^*((er for not liking Suhr . . . won't happen, because it personal.

I get it. Happens a lot. Everyone wants to be me. Their wife's want me. Their girlfriend's desire me. Their kids look up to me and want to hang out at my places. Their dogs even like me better than them. It is really draining to be me.


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## jaxadam (Sep 10, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> Shyte guys, attack this @#@&^*((er for not liking Suhr . . . won't happen, because it personal.
> 
> I get it. Happens a lot. Everyone wants to be me. Their wife's want me. Their girlfriend's desire me. Their kids look up to me and want to hang out at my places. Their dogs even like me better than them. It is really draining to be me.



Shit you and me both.

All I know is don’t make the same mistake I did by getting one of these installed!


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## narad (Sep 10, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> Shyte guys, attack this @#@&^*((er for not liking Suhr . . . won't happen, because it personal.
> 
> I get it. Happens a lot. Everyone wants to be me. Their wife's want me. Their girlfriend's desire me. Their kids look up to me and want to hang out at my places. Their dogs even like me better than them. It is really draining to be me.



If you wanted to pick a forum member who people wouldn't personally attack, probably not the best example lol There are basically whole threads dedicated to attacking Jaxadam and Glades (out of political beliefs, and not actually personal things, because hey it's a guitar forum, I don't care who you are personally).


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## xzacx (Sep 11, 2022)

The two Surhs I’ve owned were the most underwhelming $3k guitars I’ve ever played, and I’ve never really considered them since, figuring they just aren’t my thing. BaliGod has me doubting myself now and assuming I must just be wrong.


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## Musiscience (Sep 11, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> I get it. Happens a lot. Everyone wants to be me. Their wife's want me. Their girlfriend's desire me. Their kids look up to me and want to hang out at my places. Their dogs even like me better than them. It is really draining to be me.


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## Lord Voldemort (Sep 11, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> Shyte guys, attack this @#@&^*((er for not liking Suhr . . . won't happen, because it personal.
> 
> I get it. Happens a lot. Everyone wants to be me. Their wife's want me. Their girlfriend's desire me. Their kids look up to me and want to hang out at my places. Their dogs even like me better than them. It is really draining to be me.



Has anyone ever told you that you're a bit melodramatic? Chill man, this is a forum where people argue about guitars. It's fun, we're all buddies here until you hop off the deep end like this.


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## jephjacques (Sep 11, 2022)

I had a Suhr and it was really good but then I stopped playing 6 strings entirely. Now that I'm starting to get back into 6ers again I could see myself picking up a cheap-ish Classic S at some point. The Pete Thorn models are cool too.


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 11, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> View attachment 114042


This is missing “god in username.”


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## oremus91 (Sep 11, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> You're a huge Suhr fan, I am not so I am deranged? Deranged apparently = success, good choices and industry longevity. If what I am living is deranged, I'll take more brother.
> 
> Funny how if some criticize Suhr, there are the few ready to burn them at the stake. I think the true deranged by definition are those troubled by my opinions no matter how I express them.



Your derangement has nothing to do with your preference and everything to do with your execution, as seen in the other thread where you compared people demonstrating that preference isn't and objective view of quality to two women on their period.

It's funny that you keep acting like its the Suhr brigade out to get you when many replies are from people who don't even own one and are just commenting on unpleasant and illogical you are.


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## DarrellM5 (Sep 11, 2022)

I love both of my Suhr guitars (Pete Thorn Signature Standard & Modern Satin). I'd love to get my hands on an Aura so I'm hoping that it will become a production model one day. They don't have a lot of artists but the one's they do have are amazing (Pete Thorn, Scott Henderson, Mateus Asato, Andy Wood, Ian Thornley). Their amps are really killer too. Suhr is doing just fine.

I do have other guitars that I like just as much like a couple PRS core models, a few ESP E-IIs, a Friedman, Ibanez Vai & Satriani sigs, etc... My favorite guitar is my EBMM Majesty. All of these guitars cost more than my Suhr Modern Satin and several of them cost more than my Pete Thorn sig.

BTW, I love their headstocks.


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## mmr007 (Sep 11, 2022)

I've never owned a Suhr. Never even played one. They look pretty though and they come with headstocks so I have no reason to complain about them


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## BaliGod (Sep 12, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> View attachment 114042




Haha, please don't confuse good ole fashion confidence . . . and reality (at least in my mind) for narcissism . . . Chicks dig narcissist. They cannot help themselves.


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## BaliGod (Sep 12, 2022)

oremus91 said:


> Your derangement has nothing to do with your preference and everything to do with your execution, as seen in the other thread where you compared people demonstrating that preference isn't and objective view of quality to two women on their period.
> 
> It's funny that you keep acting like its the Suhr brigade out to get you when many replies are from people who don't even own one and are just commenting on unpleasant and illogical you are.



Lol, bro . . . let it go!


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## BaliGod (Sep 12, 2022)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Has anyone ever told you that you're a bit melodramatic? Chill man, this is a forum where people argue about guitars. It's fun, we're all buddies here until you hop off the deep end like this.




My wife, our girlfriend . . . my kids and sure there have been other.

That was meant entirely or at least 99.5% light hearted. I don't want anyone to get attacked and I would have thought the dog thing would have been a give away, but it was actually kind of true.


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## BaliGod (Sep 12, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> This is missing “god in username.”



I live in heaven so I must be God, right?


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## ClownShoes (Sep 12, 2022)

You have some issues mate.


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## Musiscience (Sep 12, 2022)

To anyone thinking of replying to the above posts, just ignore him. Arguing with a narcissist is a fools errand.



DarrellM5 said:


> I love both of my Suhr guitars (Pete Thorn Signature Standard & Modern Satin). I'd love to get my hands on an Aura so I'm hoping that it will become a production model one day. They don't have a lot of artists but the one's they do have are amazing (Pete Thorn, Scott Henderson, Mateus Asato, Andy Wood, Ian Thornley). Their amps are really killer too. Suhr is doing just fine.
> 
> I do have other guitars that I like just as much like a couple PRS core models, a few ESP E-IIs, a Friedman, Ibanez Vai & Satriani sigs, etc... My favorite guitar is my EBMM Majesty. All of these guitars cost more than my Suhr Modern Satin and several of them cost more than my Pete Thorn sig.
> 
> ...



Suhr really nailed their headstock design. The only headstock I like as much is PRS.


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## narad (Sep 12, 2022)

I don't know what's crazier: boasting about all aspects of your personal life on a guitar forum, or thinking the Suhr headstock is a good design.


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## BaliGod (Sep 12, 2022)

Lol, accusing someone successful in the industry of being narcists is like accusing the pope of being religious. Duh. You guys sound like a bunch keyboard warriors or forum nerds in a sewing circle that never made it anywhere.

I am just being a flippant smart ass none of which is serious.


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## budda (Sep 12, 2022)

This thread suhr is useless.


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## oremus91 (Sep 12, 2022)

Posting pics of your house on a guitar forum to prove you aren't a narcissist... let's see how this plays out.


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## Musiscience (Sep 12, 2022)

narad said:


> I don't know what's crazier: boasting about all aspects of your personal life on a guitar forum, or thinking the Suhr headstock is a good design.


I really like that it looks somewhat classic but with a bit of a more aggressive edge to it. But then I don't enjoy the ESP cockstock, which many would consider heresy in these parts, so make what you will of my tastes


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 12, 2022)

I'm OOTL is baligod someone famous or something? Confused by this "successful in the industry" thing.


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## jaxadam (Sep 12, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I'm OOTL is baligod someone famous or something? Confused by this "successful in the industry" thing.



He invented the diatonic scale, which EVERYONE is using these days...


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## Lord Voldemort (Sep 12, 2022)

soul_lip_mike said:


> I'm OOTL is baligod someone famous or something? Confused by this "successful in the industry" thing.



I've noticed that a lot of people think that they're 'successful in the industry' for one reason or another. From time to time I'll work with people whose whole personality is basically bragging about their perceived success in the industry. Usually the reality is that they're upper-middle class because they worked at a studio doing this or that or they promoted bands that made it big, etc, but the one consistent thing is that they all think they're absolute rockstars. Telling stories about how they used to go on tour with a band like Sevendust and got on stage a few times, I don't know.

Not saying that this dude isn't genuinely 'successful in the industry', but he's obviously way off the mark with the level of that success as he thinks he's Chad Kroger or something when in reality I'd assume that he played bass for Mushroomhead for a year and retired into promotion for Roadrunner or something equivalent.


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## jaxadam (Sep 12, 2022)

BaliGod said:


> I live in heaven so I must be God, right?
> 
> View attachment 114086



How can you stand living so close to the common folk? This would be a deal breaker for me.


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## oremus91 (Sep 12, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> But then I don't enjoy the ESP cockstock


delete this


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## narad (Sep 12, 2022)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Not saying that this dude isn't genuinely 'successful in the industry', but he's obviously way off the mark with the level of that success as he thinks he's Chad Kroger or something when in reality I'd assume that he played bass for Mushroomhead for a year and retired into promotion for Roadrunner or something equivalent.


He's doing a pretty good Chad Kroger impression though.



Musiscience said:


> I really like that it looks somewhat classic but with a bit of a more aggressive edge to it. But then I don't enjoy the ESP cockstock, which many would consider heresy in these parts, so make what you will of my tastes


Eh, I hate the cockstock as well. It's cost me a good number of figured maple horizons.


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