# Modes



## macalpine88 (Nov 14, 2004)

ok, this may sound a bit strange but i was having a conversation with my music teacher and he brought up a point that no one writes with modes anymore(except in jazz) this sounds very strange to me because that is how i always viewed music. we had to turn in compositions and a kid was writing in the key of C but started in F, my teacher considered it modulation but in my mind it is just F lydian. he was classically trained as a pianist, i dont know if that had anything to do with it or he is just anal/nuts to consider modes worthless. does anyone else write modaly?


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## Metal Ken (Nov 14, 2004)

I write modally. Like me and my friend will be playin stuff, and i'll be like check out this badass riff, its outta B Locrian or stuff like that, you know?


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## macalpine88 (Nov 14, 2004)

thats exactly how i write to. i guess some people just aproach music differently


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## stuh84 (Nov 14, 2004)

From what I can tell, he's trying to be controversial, writing in modes is how I tend to write, more out of habit than anything else.

I may be wrong, but if you think about modulation in terms of key signatures, if someone is playing in C Major, and starts in F Lydian, its the same key signature, therefore there is no modulation, however if it went F Lydian to C Lydian, then your going from no flats or sharps to one sharp, therefore there is a modulation as the key signature is different. Of course this wouldn't work for things like Melodic Minor and Whole Note, but I thats how I would think about it.

However don't quote me on this, this is lateral thinking rather than research


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## Digital Black (Nov 14, 2004)

Locrian ::Banned by the catholic church at one time for beeing too " dark"..


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## macalpine88 (Nov 15, 2004)

Sephiroth000 said:


> Locrian ::Banned by the catholic church at one time for beeing too " dark"..



i was reading an artical about someone playing either the phrygian or locrian on an organ in the med eval times and the church bannished him  even for the middle ages they took that scale crap to seriosly


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## stuh84 (Nov 15, 2004)

Hehe as far as I remember it wasn't phrygian, but anything that contained a flattened 5th, because it was the "Devil's Interval", so that cancels out your Locrian, Lydian, Diminished scales, and some modes of Harmonic Minor as well. There is more but I can't think at the moment


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## macalpine88 (Nov 15, 2004)

super locrian, locrian natural 7


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## Vince (Dec 7, 2004)

Locrian!!  

Locrian and phrygian are the best modes.

As for the original question, I think if you're a serious musician, you have to take modes into account when you design a piece. Even if you don't try to write modally, if the piece is going to sound good and consistent, your parts will all have to be in the same mode.


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## Metal Ken (Dec 7, 2004)

Not necissarily the same mode, but a mode that works well over a certain chord, ie, soloing over a major chord with either Mixolydian, Lydian or Ionain.


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## Vince (Dec 7, 2004)

agreed. I should've elaborated more, I was making a general statement, you're 100% right. There's no rules in music really and if it sounds good, go for it


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## Guitarist4JC (Jun 6, 2005)

Amen Desertdweller!!! If it sounds good, its good!
Technically the teacher was correct If the song is in the key of C (no sharps or flats) and your playing a F Lydian lead your still in the key of C since its all relative. What I've noticed while writing modally (if that is a word) is its not so much the melody as it is the chord progression that you get the modal sound. The Phrigian mode carries more of a i-II-vii chord progression. Where the Aeolian i-VI-VII sounds better for that mode.


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## SevenatoR (Jun 6, 2005)

The thing is, you may not be "thinking" modally (yes, it's a word )at the time you're writing something, but it can always be analyzed after the fact and you can see what mode is you're using on any given part and how it relates to the progression, or what the progression is doing relative to modes. 

A basic knowledge of modes also affords you some options in spots. Like chugging along in a natural minor and play the V chord but play it major. Phrygian works as does the Harmonic Minor scale. And, of course, when in doubt, arpeggiate!!!

But, like has already been said, If it sounds good, then it IS good.


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## Drew (Jun 6, 2005)

It depends on whaty he means by "modally" - does he mean people don't play solos that use different scales for different chords to add some outside tension relative to the primary tonal center? Cause, that sorta rules out everything but jazz and fusion. 

If he means people don't use anything but like the Aeolean and Ionian, then he's way off base. Play him some Smashing Pumpkins. 

Personally, I'm a big fan of the Mixolydian mode - stuff like the intro riff to "Cherub Rock" by the aforementioned SP's just sounds phenominal. 

-D


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## Drew (Jun 6, 2005)

desertdweller said:


> There's no rules in music really and if it sounds good, go for it



That was kinda a big eye-opening realization for me, studying guitar my senior year in college - that there's really no reason you have to stay with a certain mode or scale across a given chord progression, or even across a given chord, that you can basically do whatyever the hell you want as long as you can find a way to justify it melodically, in terms of tension and release. Or, in summary, "the trick is not to bend the scale, the trick is that there is no scale." 

(the matrix rocks, first one anyhow)

-D


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## Guitarist4JC (Jun 6, 2005)

what I was saying is that if your in the key of say C your playing the same notes as the other six modes. Right? You get the modal sound with the chord progressions while using the same notes in C. Yeah, I agree that could get boring after awhile. I do throw in say an A Phrigian where the A Natural Minor should be. That would lower the 2nd and get a darker tone.


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## wolfsd (Jun 10, 2005)

Drew said:


> That was kinda a big eye-opening realization for me, studying guitar my senior year in college - that there's really no reason you have to stay with a certain mode or scale across a given chord progression, or even across a given chord, that you can basically do whatyever the hell you want as long as you can find a way to justify it melodically, in terms of tension and release. Or, in summary, "the trick is not to bend the scale, the trick is that there is no scale."
> 
> (the matrix rocks, first one anyhow)
> 
> -D



Amen to that! For those that must be theory based.....some guy, I think he played jazz or something.....LOL....Joe Pass once said "Always remeber that you have a 50% chance of hitting the right note, then just move it up or down..." and some other hack....I think it was Frank Zappa that said "If you make a mistake, do it again, people will think you meant it" Love those guys.......


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## Drew (Jun 10, 2005)

Well, the thing I've noticed, is most of the guys who don't believe in theory and "play by ear" just don't KNOW the theoretical reasons why what they do works - if it sounds good, it's probably something that can be explained. 

I always loved that 50% chance quote - might have been Pass, might have been Hall, I always confuse those two. Whoever it was knew their shit, which made the devil-may-care attitude all the cooler. 

-D


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## Bastard Toadflax (Jun 10, 2005)

Heh. Two good ways of looking at it.


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## wolfsd (Jun 11, 2005)

Drew said:


> Well, the thing I've noticed, is most of the guys who don't believe in theory and "play by ear" just don't KNOW the theoretical reasons why what they do works - if it sounds good, it's probably something that can be explained.
> 
> I always loved that 50% chance quote - might have been Pass, might have been Hall, I always confuse those two. Whoever it was knew their shit, which made the devil-may-care attitude all the cooler.
> 
> -D



Pass....Hall...I get the two mixed up also....I do however remember another book that should be on every guitarists shelf: The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick. I play predominantly in the "death metal" vein, but I'm always trying to incorporate other influences into my playing. I got lucky while I was growing up in that my uncle plays piano in his own trio. He used to do benifit shows for the local PBS station, and they had guests that would come in and just tear shit up. During their warmups...I got to jam with the likes of Ron Eschte, Emily Remeler, Joe Pass, and some guy.....what was his name....oh yeah...Allan Holdsworth. I have a lot of fond memories, and a lot of signed Guitar Player magazines....and even though I pretty much sucked during that period, the positive comments by these people kept me motivated to keep trying and growing as a musician. While I may not know what I'm doing sometimes, at least I can go back and be able to tell why what I did sounded good or like utter crap. So, to try and put a leash on my trip down memory lane...I agree, too many people overlook the benifit of theory.

Here's a cool little idea I stole from John Petrucci  I can't remember what magazine it was in, but he gave an analysis of the song Pull Me Under...the underlying concept of the song, was to use the same chord progression in as many different ways as they could. I recently used that concept in one my band's newer songs....I figure if you're going to to steal from someone....  LOL

steve


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## Regor (Jun 11, 2005)

So am I to take it that I'm the only one here who don't know JACK SHIT about theory on guitar??  

I know very, and I mean very, few scales to begin with (I'm a more dedicated rhythm guitarist than a lead/soloist). I know nothing about modes and the like. All I know is, I put my hands on the fretboard and if it sounds good I go with it. I've got a 'vague' grasp of the whole 'major/minor' feel to riffage, but I've written shit in keys that prolly don't even exist. Sound cool as fuck tho. But I highly doubt it follows any type of pattern other than the way I wrote it.


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## seven skrang (Jun 11, 2005)

i play in modes all the time, my favorite is lydian


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## macalpine88 (Jun 11, 2005)

i love the lydian scale, especially the Maj7#11 chords you get from it. Mixo is also cool because the overused petrucci Maj11 chord comes from it


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## seven skrang (Jun 11, 2005)

wolfsd said:


> Amen to that! For those that must be theory based.....some guy, I think he played jazz or something.....LOL....Joe Pass once said "Always remeber that you have a 50% chance of hitting the right note, then just move it up or down..." and some other hack....I think it was Frank Zappa that said "If you make a mistake, do it again, people will think you meant it" Love those guys.......


 i believe they wouldnt suck as much


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## jski7 (Jun 11, 2005)

Regor said:


> So am I to take it that I'm the only one here who don't know JACK SHIT about theory on guitar??
> 
> I know very, and I mean very, few scales to begin with (I'm a more dedicated rhythm guitarist than a lead/soloist). I know nothing about modes and the like. All I know is, I put my hands on the fretboard and if it sounds good I go with it. I've got a 'vague' grasp of the whole 'major/minor' feel to riffage, but I've written shit in keys that prolly don't even exist. Sound cool as fuck tho. But I highly doubt it follows any type of pattern other than the way I wrote it.


If it feels/sounds good , go with it . I studied all the theory you'd ever want to study and then some more , and I prefer to play by "feel" nowadays . Sure , I understand why it's working , but I don't focus on it . You may be a natural feel player Regor . Nothing at all wrong with that .  To me , there are three types of players : the technicians , the "feel" players , and the combo guys who are a little of both .


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## Metal Ken (Jun 11, 2005)

Regor said:


> So am I to take it that I'm the only one here who don't know JACK SHIT about theory on guitar??
> 
> I know very, and I mean very, few scales to begin with (I'm a more dedicated rhythm guitarist than a lead/soloist). I know nothing about modes and the like. All I know is, I put my hands on the fretboard and if it sounds good I go with it.  I've got a 'vague' grasp of the whole 'major/minor' feel to riffage, but I've written shit in keys that prolly don't even exist. Sound cool as fuck tho. But I highly doubt it follows any type of pattern other than the way I wrote it.



everything can be rationalized into a key. I suggest learning all you can, cause its best to know the rules, so you can know how to bend them.


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## jski7 (Jun 11, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> everything can be rationalized into a key. I suggest learning all you can, cause its best to know the rules, so you can know how to bend them.


+1  That's what I meant to say  .


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## Shawn (Jun 11, 2005)

desertdweller said:


> Locrian!!
> 
> Locrian and phrygian are the best modes.
> 
> As for the original question, I think if you're a serious musician, you have to take modes into account when you design a piece. Even if you don't try to write modally, if the piece is going to sound good and consistent, your parts will all have to be in the same mode.


 Indeed they are.


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## Drew (Jun 12, 2005)

Scales rock for rhythm work, too, mate, and actually when youg et right down to it your chords are derrived from scales. You don't NEED to know a lot of theory to be a good guitarist, but it sure as hell is fun. 

-D


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## macalpine88 (Jun 12, 2005)

i love knowing theory but it has really messed me up, for one i cannot listen to a piece of music without going over time signatures and keys/scales played in. And also when i write music, for example i was recording stuff into a boss rc-20 loopstation a few days ago and it started in B minor then it went to Bb major then to Ab lydian then to C mixolydian. this is how i aproach everything and it is quite annoying being the type of person who always and must completely overcomplicate everything  sometimes i think it would be better to know nothing and just play what sounds good.


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