# How to make DI guitars sound like... well, not shit?



## sear

So for the years I've used them, I have always struggled to get DI guitars to not sound fucking awful. No matter what I've used, whether line in, cheap interfaces or more expensive ones with good preamps, all DI guitars have sounded like fizz and mud with almost zero definition.

I've used just about every amp sim and cabinet sim + good impulse pack and these problems never change. No matter what, the digital guitars sound and feel completely different from real things. I can stick a mic almost anywhere in front of an amp and get better results without even bothering to tweak placement, but direct in guitars sound muffled, have digital fizz on the high end that just sounds awful, and have absolutely zero sense of space.

I'd like to ask, for the people who use direct in guitars, how do you go from them sounding like complete ass to at least usable? Is it just tons and tons of corrective EQ, some magic plugin I don't know about, or am I just missing something obvious?


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## Konfyouzd

sear said:


> *I can stick a mic almost anywhere in front of an amp and get better results* without even bothering to tweak placement, but direct in guitars sound muffled and have absolutely zero sense of space.


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## ShadowAMD

Konfyouzd said:


>



I know it doesn't help much but:

+1


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## Konfyouzd

To clarify, I'm not trying to be a dick. But it seems to me that if you get better results with method A than method B, then to hell with method B! 

Whenever I play I use DI guitars, but the question was asked in a manner that--for me--is too broad to accurately answer. Morever, it may be that the approach simply isn't for you. When I was trying to mic my amp, I couldn't get it to sound the way I wanted no matter how much I repositioned the mic. So you see, we're in completely different boats.

The analog is that we both have an alternative to the method we've decided is not working.


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## Winspear

Just to clarify - you've heard DI results from people that you've liked?


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## C2Aye

sear said:


> So for the years I've used them, I have always struggled to get DI guitars to not sound fucking awful. No matter what I've used, whether line in, cheap interfaces or more expensive ones with good preamps, all DI guitars have sounded like fizz and mud with almost zero definition.
> 
> I've used just about every amp sim and cabinet sim + good impulse pack and these problems never change. No matter what, the digital guitars sound and feel completely different from real things. I can stick a mic almost anywhere in front of an amp and get better results without even bothering to tweak placement, but direct in guitars sound muffled, have digital fizz on the high end that just sounds awful, and have absolutely zero sense of space.
> 
> I'd like to ask, for the people who use direct in guitars, how do you go from them sounding like complete ass to at least usable? Is it just tons and tons of corrective EQ, some magic plugin I don't know about, or am I just missing something obvious?



First off, are you using an interface? A good DI guitar sound starts with a good input signal and even fairly cheap interfaces will give you a nice, clean input sound.

Secondly, what specific amp sims and impulses were you using and do you have any clips of your attempts? What kind of post processing have you used?

I only use amp sims for my sound simply because I don't have the means to record an amp with a microphone but in my opinion, while there are differences, your approach should be the same for both. You need to dial in a good, balanced tone to begin with, trying to avoid the usual mid scooping and high treble trap that a lot of people fall into. Mids are absolutely essential for a recording tone. You also mention mud and fizz. A simple high-pass and low-pass will sort that out for you almost immediately as it would for a mic'd recording. After doing these two steps right, you should have very little post-processing to do to get a good recording tone.

I use Lepou LeGion as my main ampsim with Guitar Rig 4 running in front as a noise gate, tubescreamer and compressor set up. I use four impulses high-passed at 60Hz and low passed at 7.5kHz and my post-processing is just a small boost at 180Hz and a compressor. This picture shows the set-up more clearly. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39302626/Signal Chain 2.jpg

This is the kind of tone I get with this set-up and it's served me well so far! As with all things, if you put in the effort and the time you will eventually get the results! Everybody has a slightly different approach but I feel that if you get the fundamentals right, you should well be on your way! https://soundcloud.com/c2aye/hypatia


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## WhiteWalls

To be honest there's not any real magic involved, the only EQ I apply is a very small notch in the high end area to get rid of some fizz if needed (this isn't much of an issue if you use vsts, but it used to be one of the things that drove Pod users insane though), but in my experience both amp sim vs and cab impulses sound pretty accurate compared to the real equivalents.

The way you describe it, it could also be that there's something wrong when taking the DIs, have you tried downloading some DI recorded by others?


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## aturaya

Low pass filters and really tiny notches around 2-4k. That's really it. Plus, they usually don't sound good out of context at all, but they come together in a mix.


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## ShreddingDragon

I'm also interested in this. I listened to some of Nolly's DIs and they sound somehow "breathier" than mine.


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## Overtone

One thing I've noticed in Guitar Rig is that many of the presets have an insane amount of compression. So one thing I always do right away is see what's going on with that and bypass it or set it to something more reasonable. I've also found that when I'm using that or the Garageband amps I tend to be playing off of (or for) the sounds I've found that I like... so there's some element of adapting to the situation.


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## baptizedinblood

It's just corrective EQ. 

Do some filter sweeps in your low (sub 100) and high (2k, 4k, and 8k+) ranges. Find the problem spots, eliminate as needed.

You can get a decent tone from DI -> software, (I'd record demos at most with this) but your best DI bet is an Axe FX/Kemper/Pod HD 500, anything else and you are essentially better off mic'ing up a cab, because that is going to sound a whole lot better.


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## Purelojik

do you have any samples of your DI and the recorded tracks?

we can tell you more if you provide us with the examples that fit the problem. I used to have the same problem so i might be able to help as well. 

also let us know your signal path from pickups to the levels you set things at in the DAW


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## sear

Thanks for replies everyone. I realize my query was pretty non-specific but to be honest I think that was the best way, from my personal perspective, that I could have put it. I'm really just looking for people who have had similar experiences and overcome them.



C2Aye said:


> First off, are you using an interface? A good DI guitar sound starts with a good input signal and even fairly cheap interfaces will give you a nice, clean input sound.


Yep. Granted I don't have super expensive hardware, but I have used a couple of interfaces over the years in the $100-300 range and they really did not sound much better than going into my sound card's line-in.



C2Aye said:


> Secondly, what specific amp sims and impulses were you using and do you have any clips of your attempts? What kind of post processing have you used?


Guitar Rig, Amplitube, Poulin's, Revalver, and more. Of those, Revalver was the best as it felt most accurate settings-wise to a real amp, and Poulin's amp models are pretty nice. The problem seems to be more the cabinet stuff, but again, even with good impulses I get zero sense of room space and the muffled, digital quality remains. Even so, I have plugged my real 6505+ into the same interface, used impulses, and it sounds worlds better.




C2Aye said:


> I only use amp sims for my sound simply because I don't have the means to record an amp with a microphone but in my opinion, while there are differences, your approach should be the same for both. You need to dial in a good, balanced tone to begin with, trying to avoid the usual mid scooping and high treble trap that a lot of people fall into. Mids are absolutely essential for a recording tone. You also mention mud and fizz. A simple high-pass and low-pass will sort that out for you almost immediately as it would for a mic'd recording. After doing these two steps right, you should have very little post-processing to do to get a good recording tone.


It's not so much the mix as it is the character. The note definition on amp sims just is not there for me - things bleed together way too easily. The high end is a dead giveaway, with the same "wooshy" sound you get with, say, MP3 compression, as well as digital-sounding static. Turn down the gain on the amp sim to improve articulation and you loose all the balls. Turn it up and it turns to mud. I have never really been able to find a good "sweet spot" on most.




C2Aye said:


> I use Lepou LeGion as my main ampsim with Guitar Rig 4 running in front as a noise gate, tubescreamer and compressor set up. I use four impulses high-passed at 60Hz and low passed at 7.5kHz and my post-processing is just a small boost at 180Hz and a compressor. This picture shows the set-up more clearly. https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39302626/Signal Chain 2.jpg


Do you use a real Tube Screamer or a simulated one? That could be part of the equation. I know your picture shows a simulated one but I am just wondering.

I think a lot of it also just comes down to the way the guitar responds. I feel like my technique needs to adjust to play to the amp sim vs. the real thing, and much of the subtlety in technique is completely lost without using a real amp.


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## Ckackley

Everything I do is DI. Live I run a GSP1101 DI'ed to the PA and at home for recording I either use my RP500 to a Tascam interface or Guitar Rig 5. EQ is mandatory. ALso remember that it's NOT an amp. Settings you use on an amp are going to react differently on a sim. Even from product to product they're different. I tried copying the settings and EQ from my Digitech gear to Guitar Rig and wound up tweaking Guitar Rig a LOT to get it to sound the same as the Digitech stuff. Guitar Rig for me sounds the most like a "real" amp.


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## C2Aye

sear said:


> It's not so much the mix as it is the character. The note definition on amp sims just is not there for me - things bleed together way too easily. The high end is a dead giveaway, with the same "wooshy" sound you get with, say, MP3 compression, as well as digital-sounding static. Turn down the gain on the amp sim to improve articulation and you loose all the balls. Turn it up and it turns to mud. I have never really been able to find a good "sweet spot" on most.
> 
> Do you use a real Tube Screamer or a simulated one? That could be part of the equation. I know your picture shows a simulated one but I am just wondering.
> 
> I think a lot of it also just comes down to the way the guitar responds. I feel like my technique needs to adjust to play to the amp sim vs. the real thing, and much of the subtlety in technique is completely lost without using a real amp.



All of my set-up is simulated, the tubescreamer included. To be honest, I haven't really come across any of the problems you seem to have and as opposed to having to adjust my playing to the ampsim, I feel that my set-up actually is catered very much to my playing style, subtleties and all. I can't really help you more unless you provide a clip to highlight the troubles you're having because describing it can only go so far! 

The one thing I can do is provide a little context for a recording guitar tone. This is from a short clip that I recorded at the beginning of the year.

Here is the guitar on its own: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39302626/Mixtest Guitars Only.mp3

This is done with the set-up in the picture I linked you too. The gain is fairly low, only at 9 o'clock.

Do you hear the same problems as with your own experience with ampsims? Obviously you're not playing and feeling the response of the ampsim but consider it from a purely aural standpoint. I would say that it sounds quite digital, but for me that's not a bad thing. Also, possibly a bit thin too.

Here it is in the context of the mix: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/39302626/Mixtest with guitars.mp3

I feel that the guitar sounds beefier in the mix, but that's just because of the bass guitar and the kick drum too. Basically, the point I'm trying to get across is that from a recording standpoint, you can't focus too much on individual elements of the mix. A recording guitar tone on its own is seldom going to sound out of this world. Everything has to work in tandem and a lot of the beefiness and bigness you hear is due to a a good mix.

Anyway, like I said, it would be very helpful if you had a clip to explain your issues, especially in a mix. That way I could probably be less useless to you!


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## mcleanab

I was in a similar boat for a while...

BUT - I still hate the sound I personally get with a miced amp so I was always on the lookout for a good cabinet simulator (I'm just not good at it, can't turn it up because of where I live, etc).

I personally don't care for all the software IR's out there; I just tried the Two Notes Torpedo free 4x12 VST with both my Engl and Theta and I just can't stand it... it sounds incredibly real, is very easy to use... just not my thing for what I write and record...

I used to love the sound of my old ADA MP-1 through the ADA Microcab run direct. It was horrible with the ISP Theta. I loved the sound of the Theta with one of the old DMC Cabtone boxes. The MP-1 sounded horrible with it. My old Gallien-Krueger 2000cpl sounded great through a Digitech RP100 in 'mixer' mode (engaged only a cabinet simulator). My other GK 100mpl preamp sounded horrible through that and the Cabtone but I could get great tones with it's on board cab sim.

The Engl e530 sounds incredible to me through my Rocktron Xpression speaker sims. As does my Theta. The Theta sounds a bit better with it's own on board cabinet simulator. That set up works for me and what I write and record. Took me a long time to find that combination of gear. Plus, I just don't like using IR's... (I'm old and love to turn real knobs!)

I rarely if ever EQ after the tracks are down. No compression, nothing. But, I'm not 'professional' engineer and I'm sure my sound would not work at all for a lot of folks. And I personally love that 'zero sense of space' that you mentioned. 

And, the settings I use for both preamps running live in the room through the cabinet simulators into my studio monitors is different than the settings when I'm recording... lots of high end removed.

If a mic works for you use it!


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## jsaudio

Idk if this what you are looking for but here is a mix I did recently using pod farm and redwirez Mesa cab IR. Admittedly amp sims have an odd sound so I tend to do a lot of processing to my guitars to get them to sound realistic. The most important of all the processing though is the EQ. If anyone is interested I can share another example of a clip that is JUST guitar reamps. One of them is a real 5150 with Mesa cab reamp (from a really good engineer) and the other being my pod farm reamp of the same thing. Just as an example of how close you can get amp sims to the real thing just let me know. 
SoundCloud Mobile


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## ArrowHead

sear said:


> Turn down the gain on the amp sim to improve articulation and you loose all the balls.



Turn down the gain, and try a different cab to dial the low end back in again.


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## sear

Here's one example that might illustrate what I'm talking about. Signal chain: Me -> LTD MH-1000 with EMG 81 -> Dunlop Jazz III red -> Planet Waves cable -> GFS Greenie Classic (Tube Screamer) -> 6505+ with Eminence Swamp Thang -> SM57 -> Steinberg CI-2 -> Ableton live.

Sologuitar by searanox on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

I've never heard DI guitars with that much gain that retain a smooth top-end or have any of the "thump" you get on the pick attack.

Here's my attempt at recreating it using Amplitube and Sperimental V30 SM57 impulses:

Sologuitar 2 by searanox on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Granted, I did not use Revalver's model as I didn't have it installed. However, these characteristics are identical regardless of what amp models I use, and are retained by all of them. 

I think it's still pretty clear that the digital one lacks something. In addition to missing the "thump" on pick attack (especially on high notes), the high-end is full of static/white noise despite the use of a high pass filter - it's harsh instead of smooth. The dynamics are also far inferior to using a real amp, though that's a playing feel thing. I should note I also had to do more corrective EQ and mixing and matching to get a usable tone than with simply micing up my cab.

Interestingly, despite the fact that both used the exact same reverb preset, the reverb is far, far more audible on the fake amp recording - I have no idea why as the dry/wet mix was identical. That contributes significantly to its appeal as well - turned down or removed, the flaws with the tech are more obvious.

And for the record, I actually have more experience using fake amps than real ones, so I don't know if it's a case of simply not knowing what settings to use.


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## sevenstringj

That's not NEARLY as bad as you were making it out to be. I was expecting a pile of horse manure, but that's actually quite descent. 

The "fake" one sounds much closer to a finished product than the real one, and I think that's kinda the point--amp sims are designed to fit in with minimal processing. (I think.)


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## Winspear

sevenstringj said:


> That's not NEARLY as bad as you were making it out to be. I was expecting a pile of horse manure, but that's actually quite descent.
> 
> The "fake" one sounds much closer to a finished product than the real one, and I think that's kinda the point--amp sims are designed to fit in with minimal processing. (I think.)


Agreed!


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## axxessdenied

Having you tried copying your DI to several different tracks and layering different tones to try to achieve what you're looking for?


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## Orsinium

I recommend using different panning techniques and double tracking guitars to give the sense of space that you are missing. Also a bit of reverb can help to fill that void, like a few have already stated its about fitting in the mix if your guitar sounds fizzy and dead by itself try adding bass and drums with it and if that didn't work then double track and pan wide for higher pitch things like lead or pan close for the beefier low end stuff. Note those are just things I do you can pan however you want.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr-

There's a lot of variables involved here. Credit to the OP (*sear*) for leaving room for everyone to attack the problem from a different angle. *Fix 'em and Flank 'em!*

Let's assume the guitar is made with wood from the crucifixtion, with hardware smelted from the holy grail and strings plucked from the flowing hair of the Nephiilim... Good leads, DI, interface, and everything is working as intended.

Input gain is the first problem. Guitar DI's will be at a low level, so setting the input gain on your pre/interface to unity (adding no gain) will keep the signal intact for reamping.

It's best to monitor from an analogue setup (combo+pedals or what have you) from the DI's "Thru" output.

Next is your DAW. It's important that your latency and buffer settings are correct and that you are recording at the desired bit rate, sample rate and format. 
44khz 24bit WAV or other high quality format is probably most useful, after all, once you've comped the track down to it's core components you can bounce the result to a new track and delete all the fragments from tracking to reduce hardrive clutter.

*Computer setup*
DPC Latency Checker
Several latency tools are available to tell the user which of their devices are tasking the CPU, reducing processing availablity. Using Device Manager you can temporarily disable them, or you can use the BIOS to remove unnecessary north bridge functions before your OS begins. Network cards etc. are often culprits and can be temporarily disabled in the bios.

The speed of your HDD or SDD may have a part to play in latency of tracking/playback. Make sure it is well maintained and defragmented as the session goes on. Most new audio tracks come out fragmented, so defrag when you have a coffee break.
http://www.filehippo.com/download_auslogics_disk_defrag/

http://www.iobit.com/gamebooster.html
This works as well for gaming as it does anything else you do on your PC. Awesome tool!

*What can your guitar do for you?*
So with all that boring stuff taken care of; What can you expect the guitar to achieve in your mix?
If you have a really sparse arrangement with little activity you can have an immense guitar tone, especially with ERG instruments.
Trouble is, most heavy music tends to be fast, saturated with multiple instruments in similar registers competing for frequency real-estate, so you have to use filters to make everything smaller, much, much smaller.

By the end of a mix the individual tracks will probably have been trimmed down into a fraction of their original source's frequency range.

Automating filters can be a nice way to maintain the illusion of powerful guitars and basses, especially during stop/start sections where an instrument is heard in isolation then returns to an accompanying role. You can apply this to a bus'd series of tracks so your comp'ing/multi'ing strategy is unaffected.

Compression, spatial enhancement and M/S processing are often useful tools, but EQ'ing guitars can tend to be a subjective time sink. I always spend way to long messing with guitar tones, then changing my mind and starting again. 
I tend to focus solely on subtractive EQ with guitars, using low Q notches to remove overtones and other unpleasent frequencies. With digital tones, using a lower low pass than analogue tones helps to remove the sizzle and fry fake sound.
Mulltiple record double tracks, time aligning and phase correction are all things you can do on the timeline in your DAW manually.
Hopefully, if your PC is setup well and you minimse processing needs you won't have to time align a lot of tracks. Nudging tracks so the waveforms line up flawlessly is a boring and thankless task.

The real question is; are you expecting too much mileage from the guitars alone, without reinforcement from other mix elements?

Playback system and listening environment will also play a big part in how you hear and react to your mix.

Always make sure to have some reference material at hand.. Here, listen to some real music...






*Clark Kent*'s been doing a great job on promoting the impulses and EQ matching techniques to the metal community for some time now, despite courting controversy at another forum. Take a look at his great tutorial!


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## JamesM

The secret: impulses.


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## sezna

JamesM said:


> The secret: impulses.



Total noob here. What's an impulse? Googling "impulse" fails me, for it is fairly broad


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## Forrest_H

sezna said:


> Total noob here. What's an impulse? Googling "impulse" fails me, for it is fairly broad



NECRO-BUMPER! NECRO-BUMPER!



Have a read here man:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/recording-studio/79670-impulse-faq-tutorial-thread.html

And this is not at all meant to be taken as me being a prick to you, but try not to bump old threads. The mods and other users here don't dig it


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## sezna

Forrest_H said:


> NECRO-BUMPER! NECRO-BUMPER!
> 
> 
> 
> Have a read here man:
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/recording-studio/79670-impulse-faq-tutorial-thread.html
> 
> And this is not at all meant to be taken as me being a prick to you, but try not to bump old threads. The mods and other users here don't dig it



Oh crap  I totally know what a necro-bump is, I just did a search for DI and completely forgot that I was travelling through time...my bad, sorry!


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