# ESP E-II vs Standard: how's the quality?



## andriusd

People mostly bitch about the lack of the "ESP" logo on the headstock and compare E-IIs to LTD Elite based on practically no hard evidence. Is there anyone who has actually had some experience with E-IIs and Standards and could objectively tell us whether E-IIs are in fact inferior to Standards?

Also, I've read some discussions online, and it is unclear to me: so are E-II series guitars cheaper, more expensive than the discontinued Standard series or priced the same? And I know that ten years ago Standards cost under $1000, so I'm asking about the most recent prices of the Standards.


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## sehnomatic

I've played a lot of Edwards and two E-IIs. In my limited experience Edwards = E-II

ESP is focusing more on becoming an industry name in japan with its education and music industry programs so it's rolling back guitar production to make the ESP name more "premiuim":

ESP Custom/Navigator > ESP original/ESP standard > Edwards/E-II

On the outside, finish, frets, and hardware are on par with standards because they're done by the same people. The little things like wood usage, and construction tolerances are that of edwards quality. Edwards is damn near close to ESP quality


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## JD27

ESP claims they are the same. 

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*The New ESP Standard!*

Until the end 2013, we had two levels of ESP Guitars: ESP Custom Shop, and ESP Standard. Those ESP Standard guitars were built in our Tokyo, Japan manufacturing facility, and the majority of the ESP models youve seen around the world for the past 39 years are ESP Standards. ESP E-II is simply a new name for that same series of guitars and basses. Just as its always been, all E-II models are made in Japan at our ESP-owned factory as our ESP Standard guitars and basses were. Same factory, same people, new name. Thats all.


E-II Series - The ESP Guitar Company

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So are they or are they not the same quality? Are they not being truthful?


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## andriusd

JD27 said:


> ESP claims they are the same.



I apologize, but I am asking for firsthand user experience, not what the company tells people to sell its stuff.


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## JD27

andriusd said:


> I apologize, but I am asking for firsthand user experience, not what the company tells people to sell its stuff.



Right I understand your question. So you think they are BS'n us?


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## Thanatopsis

I just came across this on eBay ESP Custom Order LP 119 Quilt Case Tags 10K New Custom Shop Navigator 749 | eBay
and noticed that the body and headstock shape is more identical to a Gibson than the Eclipse's that I'm used to(for example the tip of the cutout being more rounded). Is this just because of copyright issues in the US? I'm assuming it is but it would be nice if someone had a definite answer.


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## JordanStGodard

I have the ESP NT-7b and can honestly say I got way more quality than I had ever hoped for. It is an amazing instrument and will be one I plan on keeping for a long time.

For what it's worth, the E-IIs are said to be the same quality and are from the same factory as the ESP Standard guitars crafted by amazing luthiers. Honestly, the only difference may be the choice in finishes and stock pickups.


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## sehnomatic

Thanatopsis said:


> I just came across this on eBay ESP Custom Order LP 119 Quilt Case Tags 10K New Custom Shop Navigator 749 | eBay
> and noticed that the body and headstock shape is more identical to a Gibson than the Eclipse's that I'm used to(for example the tip of the cutout being more rounded). Is this just because of copyright issues in the US? I'm assuming it is but it would be nice if someone had a definite answer.



Yup, due to copyright issues in north america, japanese orders have a plethora of body shape options, this includes their "LP" shape.

I asked my ESP dealer if I could get this shape, but was denied. I was told to contact anybody outside of north america to order one, but bill and ship to me and that's how I could obtain an esp les paul.

Normally, if you want an LP copy built by esp, it's common to get it built under the Navigator name because they have the golden reputation of being one of the best les paul copy/replica shops for resale value.


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## xzyryabx

Thanatopsis said:


> I just came across this on eBay ESP Custom Order LP 119 Quilt Case Tags 10K New Custom Shop Navigator 749 | eBay
> and noticed that the body and headstock shape is more identical to a Gibson than the Eclipse's that I'm used to(for example the tip of the cutout being more rounded). Is this just because of copyright issues in the US? I'm assuming it is but it would be nice if someone had a definite answer.



Navigator is another ESP sub brand....they make "replicas" of LPs and Strats (among others) of the highest quality (srsly, better than the originals according to most reviews I've seen). 
custom shop / original series are the only models to carry the ESP logo; ESP wants to only associate the ESP logo with these two top tier brands.
Navigator/ESP Custom Shop/ESP Original Series are as good as humans can make guitars, IMHO. 
ESP standard is the same as E-II; they just rebranded them. Same factory, same wood, same hardware, same luthiers, different logo.
Where edwards fit in is either the same level as the standard/E-II series are a notch below.
LTD elite is probably a notch below Edwards.
LTD is almost the bottom rung.
Grassroots is the budget ESP brand.

Too many sub-brands if you ask me, but I'm sure they have their reasons (probably based on marketing/business/patent considerations)


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## Thanatopsis

Interesting, and thank you sehnomatic and xzyryabx. I was not aware the Navigators were of such high quality.


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## andriusd

JD27 said:


> So you think they are BS'n us?



Would that be the first time in history that a big company BS potential customers?

To answer your question seriously, I personally wouldn't think so if it was not for some claims in online discussions that E-II are inferior or that they in reality replaced the LTD Elite or that they are cheaper than the Standards (why would they get cheaper at the time when guitars only get more expensive?) and stuff like that.
Also, after the whole Edwards mystery I am not sure I can trust ESP people. I mean, ESP haven't made an official statement that would clarify the Edwards situation yet. Someone posted an allegedly official email from someone from ESP on the internet which reveals Edwardses are made in China; someone else (actually a credible person in my opinion, a dealer of some of Japanese guitars in my country, and I trust they were as interested to find out the truth) posted an email where someone else from ESP says they are made in Japan, but in a different factory than other ESPs. Some people (who have actually been to Japan) say that the Japanese tend to be not honest sometimes or not say things directly and it's difficult to get the truth out of them sometimes. I think either even people at ESP are not all well informed or someone is not being honest - or doesn't care enough about that. After that, I don't know if you can take everything ESP says for granted.

Right now, they keep assuring "they are made in the same factory by the same people" - but what about the quality of the woods used? Is it the same as that used on the Standards? Also:
_"...majority of the ESP models you&#8217;ve seen around the world for the past 39 years are ESP Standards. ESP E-II is simply a new name for that same series of guitars"_ - I don't know the whole story (I only found about about the whole thing a couple of months ago), but from what I read, it seems like they first replaced the Standards with LTD Elite, and now have discontiued the LTD Elite (at least I don't see them on their website) and are again replacing the Standards with E-II. But wait a minute - haven't they already replaced the Standards with LTD Elite? Doesn't that mean that they're actually replacing the LTD Elite with the E-II?
If they are replacing the Standards with E-II, that's one thing, but if they are actually replacing the LTD Elite with E-II, that could be a different thing, because they might have been building those in the Japanese factory by the same builders, but using slightly cheaper woods, just because it's an LTD, not ESP.

All that could be just simple branding, but could also involve a change in quality. ESP public statements don't really address those questions about LTD Elite.

And to make things worse, there are tons of negative posts by people who haven't actually tried the E-IIs...


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## andriusd

sehnomatic said:


> I've played a lot of Edwards and two E-IIs. In my limited experience Edwards = E-II
> ...
> ESP Custom/Navigator > ESP original/ESP standard > Edwards/E-II
> 
> On the outside, finish, frets, and hardware are on par with standards because they're done by the same people. The little things like wood usage, and construction tolerances are that of edwards quality. Edwards is damn near close to ESP quality



You haven't mentioned you have played the Standards. So have you? I'm sorry, I am not being rude, it's just that what you said, is a bit confusing.


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## Andromalia

JD27 said:


> Right I understand your question. So you think they are BS'n us?



I think your signature is too short.


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## Zado

We will possibly never know the truth I guess...but there's something fishy fo sho.I've read far more complains about E-II (from possessors) in some months,than about Standard ESPs in years.A friend of mine somehow managed to play an E-II recently and said he would never make an exchange for his ESP.

Point is: is this real,or people just can't help being (for some reason) butthurt for that logo and unconsciously associates it with "BAD"?


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## sehnomatic

andriusd said:


> You haven't mentioned you have played the Standards. So have you? I'm sorry, I am not being rude, it's just that what you said, is a bit confusing.



Sorry, I've played a standard horizon ii for a year then an original for two and owned one very old 90s era standard, but I don't think that counts for today's quality.

I apologize if I made E-II seem like an difinitively inferior product to ESP. Just because of the loosened tolerances allow for a guitar to be built faster, the chance that you'll get a lemon increases by a percent or two, not like there's a high chance to get a lemon in the first place.


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## andriusd

Yeah, after having read some more posts online, it seems like the E-II actually are cheaper than the Standards. Guitar prices don't go down just like that with no corner cutting, do they?


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## Zado

andriusd said:


> Yeah, after having read some more posts online, it seems like the E-II actually are cheaper than the Standards. Guitar prices don't go down just like that with no corner cutting, do they?



Depends on the money value of the place where the instrument is made.Ibanez has lowerred prices quite a bit recently,at least here.
I hope the same applies to ESP,cause otherwise lowering prices like that and swearing the E-II are exacty what Standard series was,is just like saying "you paid your ESP Standard way more than they deserved".


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## Mike

I owned an ESP Horizon NT-7 for a couple years. I had the E-II replacement of it, the ESP E-II Horizon NT-7B in my possession for about 3 months. (Both in new condition) My NT-7 was flawless. The E-II however was not. The nut was not cut very well, noticeable flaws in the neck binding, and a few unlevel frets. 

Based on that, to me, E-II is not equivalent to the previous ESP Standard offerings. For the most part, they're very good quality and well built, but not perfect. I'm not a fan of the line from a marketing perspective. I really do not think E-II receives the same love, care, attention to detail, and QC as whatever it's being marketed as and the old series it replaced. Even if ESP says it is, it's no replacement for the old "ESP" labeled versions. I really think E-II is just LTD Elite with maybe a little more TLC and a higher price tag.

I have owned the NT-7 and a standard eclipse. The quality I experienced with the E-II does not compare to those. Then again lemons happen so maybe my opinion is just tainted now because of one bad experience.


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## ganon

What do you think about this guitar?
I think it has some quality issues.


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## Viginez

ouch, that's nasty


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## stevexc

I haven't played that M-I specifically, but the M-II I played had no issues that I noticed. Overall, it was excellent.

What "quality issues" are you referring to?


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## btbg

Bumping a year old thread to show us an M-I headstock certainly is lacking in quality


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## ganon

Watch please the picture properly. 
Can't you see anything wrong on this headstock?


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## stevexc

Nothing indicative of quality issues across the line or worth bumping a year-old thread for. At worst the nut looks a bit iffy at the ends and the inlay's imperfect, and there's either a scuff or some weird reflection on the edge of the fretboard.

Rather than getting people to play guessing games, why don't you come out and tell us what exactly about this makes you concerned about the E-II series?


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## ganon

I'made some marking on the picture about my observation.


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## Zado

I can live with those kind of issues


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## dr_game0ver

the logo too


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## Andromalia

Zado said:


> I can live with those kind of issues



Given *all* ESPs I've tried were perfectly finished guitars, I wouldn't expect a bad nut and a mutilated fretboard.
If given a choice in the used market I'll take the ESP purely because of resale value that is going to be higher than EIIs just because fo the headstock decal.


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## Sleazy_D

I've an E-II that feels every bit of Japanese goodness that I've come to know with my ESP branded guitars.


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## V_man

I have three esp standards two horizons hrf and one m-ii. I am bumping this thread because the other day I was checking some stuff in a store nearby and I found a e-ii arrow. It was just great and it felt every bit as good as my other esp, now I find myself gassing hard for one. 
Also I have two jacksons a soloist sl2h and a rhoads rr1t. I am not a fanboy of any brand, I just like good guitars for metal. Compared to the randy the arrow has an extra cut in the heel, that I think is fascinating as Mr Spock would say. It allows better freet access.


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## RLG167

V_man said:


> I have three esp standards two horizons hrf and one m-ii. I am bumping this thread because the other day I was checking some stuff in a store nearby and I found a e-ii arrow. It was just great and it felt every bit as good as my other esp, now I find myself gassing hard for one.
> Also I have two jacksons a soloist sl2h and a rhoads rr1t. I am not a fanboy of any brand, I just like good guitars for metal. Compared to the randy the arrow has an extra cut in the heel, that I think is fascinating as Mr Spock would say. It allows better freet access.



It's interesting how when this thread was started a couple years back someone posted they had a standard ESP and tried an E-II and it was sub-par. Do you think they actually took into consideration that people wanted the quality of an ESP not an LTD Elite and bumped up the quality, or do you think you just played an exceptionally good E-II? I'm looking at E-II mostly because I'm a huge Slayer fan and they have a UC E-II that looks like Jeff's lol, and I'm a sucker for camo.


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## feraledge

RLG167 said:


> It's interesting how when this thread was started a couple years back someone posted they had a standard ESP and tried an E-II and it was sub-par. Do you think they actually took into consideration that people wanted the quality of an *ESP not an LTD Elite* and bumped up the quality, or do you think you just played an exceptionally good E-II? I'm looking at E-II mostly because I'm a huge Slayer fan and they have a UC E-II that looks like Jeff's lol, and I'm a sucker for camo.



ESP SS = LTD Elite = E-II. 
All the same. 
I have owned and played multiples or many of each. I had one E-II that was a bit off from the factory (fretwork needed help), but once I fixed that it was great. 
Given the quantity they put out, it's impossible that someone wouldn't have found a lemon from any of the three brandings, but I would buy any of them again and, most likely, will. 
I greatly regret selling my LTD Elite Horizon III FR and would buy one again if I could and _wish_ I could find one at the price I sold mine at.


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## RLG167

feraledge said:


> ESP SS = LTD Elite = E-II.
> All the same.
> I have owned and played multiples or many of each. I had one E-II that was a bit off from the factory (fretwork needed help), but once I fixed that it was great.
> Given the quantity they put out, it's impossible that someone wouldn't have found a lemon from any of the three brandings, but I would buy any of them again and, most likely, will.
> I greatly regret selling my LTD Elite Horizon III FR and would buy one again if I could and _wish_ I could find one at the price I sold mine at.



Thanks for the info, I should start bringing all my ESP questions directly to you lol. And don't sweat the LTD Elite, have you seen your custom?!  a local store has an LTD Elite Sunburst Eclipse for $500, near mint. I haven't played it, but next time I'm there I just might


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