# Composite fretboard materials



## Nag (Dec 14, 2014)

I found one or two threads mentioning those but they didn't exactly cover the topic I wanted, and I didn't feel like necrobumping.

(also if this is MY thread, I'm the one who may get rep xD)


So yeah. I'm wondering what manufacturers out there use composite fretboard materials, which materials are good/bad, and if anyone knows *where to get* a good composite material for a fretboard if I were to build a guitar for myself (which is why this thread is in the luthiery section). Like, company names, websites... luthiery websites usually only sell wood and no composites.

So far I only know about :
- Parker. uses carbon-glass stuff. apparently good.
- Gibson. uses Richlite instead of ebony on some guitars. no idea if good.

Any info welcome


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## KhzDonut (Dec 14, 2014)

If you visit the Richlite website they've got a small list of suppliers, such as Eden Saw

Richlite | Edensaw- Specialty Hardwood Supplier

As far as I can tell from the description, Richlite is essentially a proprietary XXX Phenolic blend. Nothing super magical about it, and you can get Phenolic from numerous suppliers of plastics/etc online.

It's a little crummy to work with, like Ebony but with a really terrible smell when you sand/cut it. It has a tremendous crushing strength, it does not compress at all, so make super sure that your fret slots are the proper depths. If they're even slightly shallow, there's pretty much no way to just force the fret down into the slot like you can with maple or rosewood.

Parker uses either a G10 variant (From their description it sounds like NF10 or whatever the hell it was... I'll have to look it up again) but unless you have diamond tools or carbide I can't imagine you'd want to try and cut that.


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## stevexc (Dec 14, 2014)

Fender uses ebonol on some fretless basses. I've got it on my Squier VM Jazz, I dig it. It's similar to richlite.


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## Nag (Dec 14, 2014)

Dude I'm so alpha I shape diamonds with my teeth 

Seriously now, thanks for the info . Yeah I don't want to invest in several grand worth of machinery just for a specific material.

Wondering if Richlite is a good material once it's machined. I don't care if it stinks, I just want a solid guitar once finished. Also keeping that Ebonol in mind.


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## KhzDonut (Dec 14, 2014)

Richlite and Ebonol are essentially both just trade names for variants of XXX Paper Phenolic.

I've got a 7-String I built about two years ago with a Phenolic board. It's held up very well. Phenolic is not the *most* stable material you can use (when compared to G10 or Carbon Fiber), but is on par with Ebony. Once you're completely finished with the build I would recommend a thin coat of Tung Oil or a really thin coat of a wipe-on Urethane just to seal it from any moisture absorption. It's not like an Epoxy-based composite, phenolic is a bit susceptible to moisture.

But you can definitely use the same tools for it as you do for Ebony. For high speed cutters make sure to keep the temperatures in mind, and for band saws use some extra caution.


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## Nag (Dec 14, 2014)

I typically never specify this when I make a thread, but... this is all theory right now. I know I want to build something, I'm just not able to do it yet. So I just look up information all the time, at least until I can actually build anything.

The real reason I'm looking at composites is very simple : I like black looking fingerboards, but I don't want to use ebony. I love ebony, but it's an endangered species, and it's hard to work with (splinters and all, as I have read) so I'd rather just use something that looks and feels like it. I hate rosewood so I won't use dyed-black rosewood. Composite sounds like the way to go.

KhzDonut : from what you said, Phenolic sounds good enough for me


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## SandyRavage (Dec 14, 2014)

These are just industry brand names for phelonic resin which is a slow curing machinable resin reinforced with any number of things from paper to carbon fiber and has been used in aerospace and many other industries since the 70's.

If you want an idea of how it works take a look at Micarta which many tool and knife makes use. It is a simpler process, and air cured vs UV or heat like the phelonic stuff, but essentially can be done with very basic tools at home.

Resin when reinforced is exceptionally stable, infinitely machinable, and requires very little maintenance vs wood and has many similar properties I have owned several guitars with resin finger boards as they feel fantastic and have all of the benefits and smoothness of scalloping a board without the bending problems from fretting too hard.

Guaranteed these are gonna be the industry standard in the next few years, and we will see many bodies and neck constructed the same ways because of sustainability.


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## Nag (Dec 14, 2014)

yeah I can def see that happening. there's a brand called Composite Acoustics, Parkers have composites, Gibson uses them, Aristides uses them... combine that with the most "prestigious" woods all being almost extinct and that's where we're at right now.

Most of my fav woods are fairly common (alder or ash for bodies, maple for everything, walnut...) but I absolutely HATE rosewood so I'd rather use a composite material fretboard. I hate rosewood, maple isn't dark, ebony is endangered, wenge is endangered... composite it is


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## sehnomatic (Dec 14, 2014)

I love richlite. Played a martin. I love it even more. Essentially costs 4x less per board foot compared to gabon ebony. No tearout, predictably hard, and no warping. I love it more than ebony.

I get mine from here. Essentially $5 per fretboard.

The pricing system considers 2" the same as 2-15/16", so I take advantage of that when ordering.


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## KhzDonut (Dec 14, 2014)

Nagash said:


> The real reason I'm looking at composites is very simple : I like black looking fingerboards, but I don't want to use ebony. I love ebony, but it's an endangered species, and it's hard to work with (splinters and all, as I have read) so I'd rather just use something that looks and feels like it. I hate rosewood so I won't use dyed-black rosewood. Composite sounds like the way to go.





Nagash said:


> ...combine that with the most "prestigious" woods all being almost extinct and that's where we're at right now.
> 
> Most of my fav woods are fairly common (alder or ash for bodies, maple for everything, walnut...) but I absolutely HATE rosewood so I'd rather use a composite material fretboard. I hate rosewood, maple isn't dark, ebony is endangered, wenge is endangered... composite it is





Seriously, we could be Fingerboard *Brain Twins* right now.


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## KhzDonut (Dec 14, 2014)

sehnomatic said:


> I get mine from here. Essentially $5 per fretboard.
> 
> The pricing system considers 2" the same as 2-15/16", so I take advantage of that when ordering.



Awesome link, thanks for sharing!


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## Nag (Dec 14, 2014)

sehnomatic said:


> I get mine from here. Essentially $5 per fretboard.



You, sir, are awesome.



KhzDonut said:


> Seriously, we could be Fingerboard *Brain Twins* right now.



I made a bro


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## shikamaru (Dec 15, 2014)

Nagash said:


> yeah I can def see that happening. there's a brand called Composite Acoustics, Parkers have composites, Gibson uses them, Aristides uses them... combine that with the most "prestigious" woods all being almost extinct and that's where we're at right now.
> 
> Most of my fav woods are fairly common (alder or ash for bodies, maple for everything, walnut...) but I absolutely HATE rosewood so I'd rather use a composite material fretboard. I hate rosewood, maple isn't dark, ebony is endangered, wenge is endangered... composite it is



you just made another one


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## Eliguy666 (Dec 15, 2014)

Graphite would also be a great material. Moses has done that, and apparently it's very sturdy. I just dig the look, though.


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Dec 15, 2014)

My questions about composite material FB's are how do you go about attaching them to the neck, and do the frets hold in place like in wood or do you have to super glue/epoxy them into place?


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## sehnomatic (Dec 15, 2014)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> My questions about composite material FB's are how do you go about attaching them to the neck, and do the frets hold in place like in wood or do you have to super glue/epoxy them into place?



I epoxy richlite boards. Without wood pores, I've always assumed that a yellow glue joint wouldn't be strong enough.

Fretting requires a lot more force and consequently pulling frets out does too due to how well the frets are seated in. (Benefit? Hinderance?)


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Dec 15, 2014)

sehnomatic said:


> I epoxy richlite boards. Without wood pores, I've always assumed that a yellow glue joint wouldn't be strong enough.
> 
> Fretting requires a lot more force and consequently pulling frets out does too due to how well the frets are seated in. (Benefit? Hinderance?)


I suppose then you'd wanna use SS frets for longer life/less frequent re-fretting.


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## sehnomatic (Dec 15, 2014)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> I suppose then you'd wanna use SS frets for longer life/less frequent re-fretting.



Not necessarily. Being delicate with fret pulling should be heavily considered with a conventional wooden fretboard. Since richlite has very little chip out, you can be more violent when pulling frets out of richlite. You can be as fast if not faster when refretting a richlite board: no sanding, no chip fixing. I think the difficulty to screw up a richlite refret makes up for the increased effort of fretting.


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## TheStig1214 (Dec 15, 2014)

Halo offers "carbon fiber" as a fretboard material for the same upcharge as ebony. Though I have a feeling it's some sort of carbon composite and not legit carbon fiber. Or if it is carbon fiber, it's only wood wrapped in carbon fiber.


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## vansinn (Dec 18, 2014)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> I suppose then you'd wanna use SS frets for longer life/less frequent re-fretting.



Or use German Hard Allow fretwire; lasts almost as long as SS but with much lower string wear, nearly the same as ordinary 18% silver wire. Sounds full too..


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## Nag (Dec 18, 2014)

vansinn said:


> Or use German Hard Allow fretwire; lasts almost as long as SS but with much lower string wear, nearly the same as ordinary 18% silver wire. Sounds full too..




never heard of that before, but I think I'm interested in some extra info.


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## stevexc (Dec 18, 2014)

TheStig1214 said:


> Halo offers "carbon fiber" as a fretboard material for the same upcharge as ebony. Though I have a feeling it's some sort of carbon composite and not legit carbon fiber. Or if it is carbon fiber, it's only wood wrapped in carbon fiber.



Ummmm... I'm not quite sure what you're expecting "carbon fiber" fretboards to be? Carbon fiber is essentially (if not literally) a textile made out of carbon "threads"... it's not a solid piece of material that can be carved down into a neck like wood or something. Plus carbon fiber by nature is a composite... carbon threads and a polymer adhesive...

Even Parker uses a carbon fiber wrap for their fretboards. Their necks are solid wood, with carbon fiber composite "glued" on. Cool video of the process.


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## Pikka Bird (Dec 19, 2014)

Nagash said:


> never heard of that before, but I think I'm interested in some extra info.



Me too. Sounds like some kind of panacea, long-lasting _and_ non-string-and-tool-killing? Sign me up!


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## TheStig1214 (Dec 19, 2014)

stevexc said:


> Ummmm... I'm not quite sure what you're expecting "carbon fiber" fretboards to be? Carbon fiber is essentially (if not literally) a textile made out of carbon "threads"... it's not a solid piece of material that can be carved down into a neck like wood or something. Plus carbon fiber by nature is a composite... carbon threads and a polymer adhesive...
> 
> Even Parker uses a carbon fiber wrap for their fretboards. Their necks are solid wood, with carbon fiber composite "glued" on. Cool video of the process.



That's exactly what I'm saying  I don't know exactly what it is they do. I'm saying my best guess is a carbon fiber wrapped fretboard. I imagine you could also mold carbon fiber into a fretboard, like how they do car parts. BUt that seems too involved for luthiery options.


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## Darkstar124 (Dec 19, 2014)

I have a modulus bass with phenolic, and it feels like ebony with a grain filler. Super smooth. Its nice. It also has a carbon fiber neck so it just about as impervious to temperature and atmosphere change as it gets so I can't comment on much but the feel.


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## ixlramp (Dec 19, 2014)

I consider Ebonol far better than ebony for fretless, it feels and looks so good: super hard, very black and super smooth with a mirror-like reflection. Effortless slides and the hardness makes fretless tapping work well, so much sustain and brightness and resists the wear of roundwounds. Used on Cort Curbow fretless and older fretted Cort Curbows, and Ibanez GW35 fretless and the excellent, innovative, too far ahead of their time Ibanez Ergodyne basses.

BTW the girl in your avatar is cute and familiar for some reason.


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## ElRay (Dec 20, 2014)

In the "save for later use" stack, I have a sheet of the black XXX Phenolic (it also comes in tan, but when I've seen that, it's really been the LE linen-based phenolic) and a sheet of the G10 "glass based" that I've thought about using for fret/fingerboards. 

The XXX does stink like melted plastic when cut, but it's stiff, hard and dead flat.

The G10 is glassy smooth, feels a bit harder/abrasion resistant, but a bit less stiff. I hope I don't find another use for it before I can get around to building a fretless. The downside is that it's a slightly lighter shade of fiberglass green.

The other thing that falls into composite-land is bamboo. I think a body made from end-cut bamboo paired with a fret-board of long-cut bamboo would be killer, but you have to like natural looking finishes.

Ray


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## Nag (Dec 20, 2014)

ixlramp said:


> BTW the girl in your avatar is cute and familiar for some reason.



Battlelore 

Also, I'm NOT talking about fretless at all. I'm talking 100% fretted guitars. I'd use composite on fretted. You guys make it sound like it's only good for fretless instruments


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