# I don't "get" it - Meshuggah, Opeth



## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

I didn't want to crap on other people's threads since every thread about these bands is more of an "appreciation" thread so I made this one...

These two bands seem to be widely heralded as THE BEST BANDS EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE by many metal fans, but I don't understand the big deal about either one of them.

So I ask you guys - What makes Meshuggah better than Mercenary/Scar Symmetry/Zero Hour/etc.? To me they seem like they've got some interesting rhythmic stuff going on, but other than that the music is boring, the vocals are horrendous, and I just don't feel anything when I listen to them.

or - What makes Opeth better than Adagio/Therion/Haggard/whatever? To me they sound very amateur-ish. Their tones are not very good and their song structures just seem hacked together to me without much flow. Kind of like if you compare a band like Visions of Atlantis to Nightwish.

I'm not trying to hate on either of these bands. I think they're both good, but far from great. I've listened to their entire discographies at least 3 times over. I just don't get the obsession with them... Any help?


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## lobee (Feb 19, 2009)

Different strokes.

/thread


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 19, 2009)

I think Lobee hit the head on the nail


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## TheAceOfSpades1 (Feb 19, 2009)

I think Opeth has some of the best tones I've ever heard in my life especially on the last couple of albums. What is most interesting about Meshuggah is how everything fits together in my opinion. 
Also I wouldn't be comparing Meshuggah or Opeth to any of those bands because they all sound totally different to me. (I've never heard Zero Hour before though...) I don't really believe any band is "better" than another. It is art, and it is all subjective.


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## WhiteShadow (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Opeth...Their tones are not very good and their song structures just seem hacked together to me without much flow.



Really? Because i think its actually quite the opposite. Care to elaborate on any particular songs that exhibit this horrible flow and terrible tone you speak of?

In the end though, i agree with the rest...to each his own. I think we can all agree though that we like heavy music as a whole.


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## polydeathsphere (Feb 19, 2009)

If you don't feel anything when listening to Meshuggah, stop, and go back to the other stuff. You can say the vocals are horrendous, while I say there the best damn vocals i've ever heard. Don't try and force it though if you don't enjoy it no need to bother. DO YOU'RE OWN THING BROTHAAA


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## sakeido (Feb 19, 2009)

I think Opeth is incredibly, awesomely, peerlessly boring. They have some great riffs, except every song is padded out with quiet, tedious and overlong clean/melodic/yawner sections. Meshuggah gets pretty boring too, aside from a few songs which kick an incredible amount of ass, I really don't find much to like about them.


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## Naren (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> So I ask you guys - What makes Meshuggah better than Mercenary/Scar Symmetry/Zero Hour/etc.?



 "Personal taste"? I'm not a fan of Meshuggah, but I can understand why people like them. In my opinion Scar Symmetry is a lot lot better than Meshuggah, but I also don't think their music is similar at all. What Meshuggah is trying to do and what Scar Symmetry and Mercenary are trying to do are completely different.

I would say that Meshuggah is better than Zero Hour, but not as good as Scar Symmetry or Mercenary. But, you know what that means? That just means that I prefer Scar Symmetry and Mercenary. I know people who hate Scar Symmetry but like Meshuggah. 

Not everyone has the same taste in music. 



troyguitar said:


> or - What makes Opeth better than Adagio/Therion/Haggard/whatever? To me they sound very amateur-ish. Their tones are not very good and their song structures just seem hacked together to me without much flow. Kind of like if you compare a band like Visions of Atlantis to Nightwish.



Again, personal taste. Because "amateur-ish" is the last word I would ever use to describe Opeth.

I can understand why someone would not like Opeth (Like I can understand what Sakeido is saying, while I don't feel the same), but your reasons don't make sense to me. I think Opeth has amazing tone. It's not my favorite in the world (that would be Scar Symmtry on Pitch Black Progress), but it's up there. 

And structurally I think Opeth's songs are really well structured. 

Personally I can't stand Nightwish, but I know a lot of people who love them. Again, personal taste.


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## cyril v (Feb 19, 2009)

i don't see why people feel the need to think that they "should" like certain bands... i can understand giving a band a fair listen, but it's just a bit foriegn to me that people think it's an obligation to "like" bands just because. that'd be hopping on the bandwagon IMO, a bit poserish, and there are tons of people that just say they like them just to get insta-cred.

if you like it, good for you... if not, they're DEFINITELY *NOT* for everyone. especially meshuggah. also, Opeth amateurish? i'm not a fan of the new album but their older stuff is awesome.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 19, 2009)

Naren said:


> "Personal taste"? I'm not a fan of Meshuggah, but I can understand why people like them. In my opinion Scar Symmetry is a lot lot better than Meshuggah, but I also don't think their music is similar at all. What Meshuggah is trying to do and what Scar Symmetry and Mercenary are trying to do are completely different.
> 
> I would say that Meshuggah is better than Zero Hour, but not as good as Scar Symmetry or Mercenary. But, you know what that means? That just means that I prefer Scar Symmetry and Mercenary. I know people who hate Scar Symmetry but like Meshuggah.
> 
> ...



Opeths distorted tone on Morningrise was thin as hell. But the tone off their more recent albums and especially on Watershed is full of win.


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## Naren (Feb 19, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> Opeths distorted tone on Morningrise was thin as hell. But the tone off their more recent albums and especially on Watershed is full of win.



I have 5 Opeth albums, but I don't have their first 2 (Orchid and Morningrise), which were recorded quite cheaply. If you're going to say "they have horrible tone" and you're talking about the tone on Morningrise which was released in 1996, 13 years ago... well...  (and I don't even think Morningrise's tone sounds bad... just kind of cheaply recorded)


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 19, 2009)

Naren said:


> I have 5 Opeth albums, but I don't have their first 2 (Orchid and Morningrise), which were recorded quite cheaply. If you're going to say "they have horrible tone" and you're talking about the tone on Morningrise which was released in 1996, 13 years ago... well...  (and I don't even think Morningrise's tone sounds bad... just kind of cheaply recorded)



Ok, thank you.


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## toolsound (Feb 19, 2009)

Meshuggah is easy to explain. They're just flat out original. They're responsible for an entire genre of metal music and they've been around forever. 

Opeth is an allstar band. For being a metal band, they're pretty diverse in style. Mikael is just a brilliant songwriter. 

This isn't to say that you have to like Opeth or Meshuggah. This is only to say why they are so popular. I agree with the different strokes comment though.


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## AZ7 (Feb 19, 2009)

It's all about personal taste really. What sounds good to one person may not sound appealing to someone else. We have all had a point in time where we don't like something we hear, and somewhere down the road, you end up liking it - either because you get it, learn to appreciate it, or just have that "ah-ha" moment.

The key word in my post is "sound". We are all striving to have the perfect "sound". How do I get this certain "tone", "chug", "djent", etc.? Who is willing to follow rather than lead and push the limits?

Also figure, when one person tries to get that ultimate sound, whether it is you, me, or anyone else, if everyone had the same gear from soup to nuts, then something like ss.org wouldn't exist, right?

But I get what your saying - and that is your opinion. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.


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## gunshow86de (Feb 19, 2009)

I totally get and love Meshuggah, I always will.

Opeth, eh not so much. I have all their albums, and when I listen to them I think; well written songs with solid musicianship. At the same time I think; how incredibly boring. As a musician, I can appreciate and "get" Opeth, but their songs just don't quite "do it" for me.


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

WhiteShadow said:


> Really? Because i think its actually quite the opposite. Care to elaborate on any particular songs that exhibit this horrible flow and terrible tone you speak of?
> 
> In the end though, i agree with the rest...to each his own. I think we can all agree though that we like heavy music as a whole.



What I was listening to today that prompted this post was "The Apostle In Triumph" - it's supposed to be some long epic thing but to me it sounds like several short songs placed on the same track. I would think it's great for amateurs but just OK for a pro band - and rather disappointing for a band that many consider to be the best in the world.

I guess the whole reason I have been so disappointed with these 2 bands is that they are so overhyped by metal fans on sites like this that I expect to be completely blown away. But when I listen and find that it just sounds like a group of normal human beings rather than God himself, I'm just like "wtf? it's just another metal band"

Sure they're good - but what's with the worship that goes on?


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## Raoul Duke (Feb 19, 2009)

toolsound said:


> Meshuggah is easy to explain. They're just flat out original. They're responsible for an entire genre of metal music and they've been around forever.



Couldn't have put it better myself 

Finally got to see them live this year and  x 1000.


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## WhiteShadow (Feb 19, 2009)

toolsound said:


> Meshuggah...They're responsible for an entire genre of metal music.



They are? What genre would that be?


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## Lankles (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Sure they're good - but what's with the worship that goes on?



Because they are really that good. 

What do you like?


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## Harry (Feb 19, 2009)

I hated Meshuggah for about 3 years.
First time I heard them, it sounded like complete crap.
Fast forward to September 2008, I gave them a go again and fell in love.
I guess I changed as a person somehow perhaps.


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

I like a lot of things but I don't really worship anyone... 

If I had to pick just one band to listen to it would maybe be late 80's to present Savatage/Trans-Siberian Orchestra.


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## Naren (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> I like a lot of things but I don't really worship anyone...
> 
> If I had to pick just one band to listen to it would maybe be late 80's to present Savatage/Trans-Siberian Orchestra.



And I really don't like Savatage. I can't understand why anyone likes them. I know a lot of people who worship them and would declare me a blasphemer, but it's the same thing with you and Meshuggah/Opeth.

I don't dislike Savatage because they're a bad band. I dislike them because I just dislike them. They don't mesh with my taste in music.

I've only heard one song by the Trans-Siberian Orchestra, so I can't say for sure whether I dislike them or not, but I didn't like the song I heard, which is why I never listened to any more.


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

Maybe I'm not communicating my question(s) clearly enough. I understand why people like these bands. Hell, I like them myself (Opeth more than Meshuggah, what can I say I'm not that into rhythm). They're not in my top 50 but they would probably be in my top say 250 artists.

What I don't understand is: Why worship them (or anyone for that matter)? What makes them or their music so super-human?

Perhaps I should have made the original post more general.

Also, it's been all of half an hour and I think I would change my "If I had to choose one band" choice to Queen.


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## Harry (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Maybe I'm not communicating my question(s) clearly enough. I understand why people like these bands. Hell, I like them myself (Opeth more than Meshuggah, what can I say I'm not that into rhythm). They're not in my top 50 but they would probably be in my top say 250 artists.
> 
> What I don't understand is: Why worship them (or anyone for that matter)? What makes them or their music so super-human?
> 
> ...



I think for many, the sheer innovation from Meshuggah is what elevated them to a godly status for many people.
It's hard to be truly innovative in this day and age, but Meshuggah did it.

Heh, I don't like Queen much to be honest.
Talented band, but like Naren said, it's a case of their music not really fitting with what I like to listen to.


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## Naren (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Maybe I'm not communicating my question(s) clearly enough. I understand why people like these bands. Hell, I like them myself (Opeth more than Meshuggah, what can I say I'm not that into rhythm). They're not in my top 50 but they would probably be in my top say 250 artists.
> 
> What I don't understand is: Why worship them (or anyone for that matter)? What makes them or their music so super-human?
> 
> ...



True. Why worship anyone? But, that's not anything specific to Meshuggah or Opeth. I love Queen and I know a lot of people personally who worship Queen. My girlfriend's father owns all of their albums, asked for their live DVDs for his birthday, and just thinks they're the best band ever. And, even though I really really like Queen, I would not put them in my top 50 favorite bands, but I would put Opeth in my top 20 favorite bands (and Meshuggah wouldn't be in my top 1000 - sheerly by personal preference). Nowadays I don't listen to Queen too often, but I do sing one of their songs almost every time I go to karaoke.

It's not uncommon for people to worship their favorite actor or actress, favorite novelist, movie director, painter, musician, or band. Why do it? I don't know because I don't worship anyone (part of the reason why I cannot name a single individual guitarist who influenced my guitar playing). But, while I don't know why, it's something that a lot of people do. If you can understand why someone would worship Queen but not Opeth or Meshuggah, that's again a matter of taste.


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## PeteyG (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> What I don't understand is: Why worship them (or anyone for that matter)? What makes them or their music so super-human.



Edit: This isn't an anti-religion or anti-belief speech, I'm all for people to believe in what they want, I personally have my own spiritual beliefs, just so you don't all get the wrong end of the stick 

I think you're touching more on a human defect rather than something just in music, the vast majority of humankind seems to have a need to connect with something 'super-human'. Your question is essentially the same as, why do people choose to worship under this religion, or that religion, and it applies to everything. I think it's safe to say that (in the UK I know this) religion is kind of shrugged off at a young age, and then within the heavier rock and metal genres, a lot of the bands you see and listen to denounce any faith in god, or any higher being, and it's safe to say a lot of the young new fans of this music wanting a new identity will copy-cat this (I know I did). 

I personally think quite simply that the people who worship bands in very over the top ways, are people who are quite insecure with themselves, and therefore feel a need to have something, someone to believe in, and to relate to, and to view as almost super-human. The only thing is that it's a very fickle worship, and will most likely change with time. Best thing to do in my opinion is to just ignore that side of the person I think, or to just leave them and get on with it.

The reason I like ss.org so much, is that it's full of people who feel differently about everything, and you can get good balanced discussion (for instance, I imagine there will be people who disagree with this diatribe). The reason I don't visit any dedicated band forums, is that you get idiotic douches collecting in one place who feel the same about a band and fuel their pointless worship of said band, anything said otherwise is pointless.

I think why you mentioned Meshuggah and Opeth, is because people believe them to be doing something truly unique and original, or to be the first to do something, and therefore they deserve worship. It's just like how parents and older generations will always tell you to listen to various artists, and will no doubt act the same way, because they started something new, because 'it changed everything'.


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## Harry (Feb 19, 2009)

^The same reason why I don't visit band forums too.
I was a member of the Dream Theater forums, but after about a week, I stopped logging in.
I don't see myself as someone who worships Meshuggah or Opeth, but at the least I see them as two bands that really pushed the boundaries of metal in their own way.


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

That's probably a pretty good analysis Pete. I guess I notice it in music more than in other arenas because I tend to care more about music than other things.

However, I might disagree a bit about this site. I haven't been here long, but it seems like these terms are the gold standard here:

Ibanez, BKP, ENGL, Orange, Meshuggah, Djent, Brutal

Not that I have a problem with that - it's just an observation.

Also, I just realized there is a piece of music which I've been worshiping this week since I bought a keyboard... the opening riff to THE FINAL COUNTDOWN!


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## drmosh (Feb 19, 2009)

omg why eat an apple if you could have a pineapple???


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## Joel (Feb 19, 2009)

Both of these bands were very much an acquired taste for me. The first time I heard either of them I wasn't that impressed. But I gave both of them another chance about six months later and now they are two of my favourite bands. 
I do hate it when people say things like, "You don't like Meshuggah cause you don't understand them". It sounds patronising. 
But I pretty much think that the second post had it covered. 
Different Strokes.


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

The second post covered why some people like them and some don't. It didn't cover why some people act as if the bands are the cure to cancer.

I'm asking more about opinions on the latter subject.

To play with the drmosh post: It's not "Why eat an apple when you can eat a pineapple?" it's more like "Why assert that apples are THE BEST fr00talz EVAR?"


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## Naren (Feb 19, 2009)

techdeath16 said:


> Both of these bands were very much an acquired taste for me. The first time I heard either of them I wasn't that impressed. But I gave both of them another chance about six months later and now they are two of my favourite bands.
> I do hate it when people say things like, "You don't like Meshuggah cause you don't understand them". It sounds patronising.
> But I pretty much think that the second post had it covered.
> Different Strokes.



Similar here. I respected both bands the first time I heard them, but I thought both of them were boring. I ended up listening to about 3 albums worth of Meshuggah and I still think that they are overall boring, but there are some Meshuggah songs I like. With Opeth, I found a song I really really liked by them, bought the album it was on, and loved every song on that album, so I bought another album, loved that, and just kept going. Now I own the album with the first Opeth song I heard. I don't think it's boring anymore and I did grow to like it quite a bit, but it is one of my least favorite songs by the band.

There are a lot of bands that I didn't care for the first time I heard them, but later grew to be one of my favorite bands. I don't think that will ever happen with Meshuggah since I've given them so many chances over the last 5 years and never really got into it (there are some songs by them that I think totally kick ass, though).



troyguitar said:


> The second post covered why some people like them and some don't. It didn't cover why some people act as if the bands are the cure to cancer.
> 
> I'm asking more about opinions on the latter subject.
> 
> To play with the drmosh post: It's not "Why eat an apple when you can eat a pineapple?" it's more like "Why assert that apples are THE BEST fr00talz EVAR?"



But why are you picking Meshuggah and Opeth? Why not Jimi Hendrix? Why not Led Zeppelin? Why not The Beatles? Why not The Rolling Stones? Why not Nirvana? Why not Smashing Pumpkins? Why not Deep Purple? Why not Black Sabbath? Why not Tool? or Pink Floyd? and on and on.

You could probably use the same reason for all of those bands. Because they were innovative, original, and wrote music that people could really get into. They are all bands that are massively worshipped and all bands that are worshipped more than either Opeth or Meshuggah. 

I really have no idea why you're even asking the question.


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## Harry (Feb 19, 2009)

Naren said:


> But why are you picking Meshuggah and Opeth? Why not Jimi Hendrix? Why not Led Zeppelin? Why not The Beatles? Why not The Rolling Stones? Why not Nirvana? Why not Smashing Pumpkins? Why not Deep Purple? Why not Black Sabbath? Why not Tool? or Pink Floyd? and on and on.
> 
> You could probably use the same reason for all of those bands. Because they were innovative, original, and wrote music that people could really get into. They are all bands that are massively worshipped and all bands that are worshipped more than either Opeth or Meshuggah.
> 
> I really have no idea why you're even asking the question.


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## CrushingAnvil (Feb 19, 2009)

Meshuggah were doing what they do way before any of those bands, you have your right to not like their music though.

Opeth, Its subjective, for both.

/close thread plzzz


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, like I wrote in an earlier post, perhaps I should have asked a more general question. I find band-worshiping fascinating, especially when it's musicians who are the worshipers. It's not like we're talking about teenage girls idolizing Justin Timberlake, yet the praises are quite similar.

But the reason for picking Meshuggah and Opeth is that I've been reading a lot of ss.org lately and they seem to be the two bands which are worshiped by people on this site.

That and I don't really find Opeth innovative at all. They mixed some death metal, mellow acoustic stuff, and sort of Iced Earth type melodic metal and they're mediocre to good at all 3 of them. Nothing particularly new or amazing IMO.


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## Excalibur (Feb 19, 2009)

I don't see the big deal with Opeth either.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 19, 2009)

I think those two bands have been used as a point of referrence as the question was posed on this forum and whilst there are certainly fans of Tool/Zep/Beatles/Stones et all on here there are far more referrences to Opeth/Meshuggah than the former examples (so perhaps a wider fanbase here making the question more likely to provoke a wider selection of answers?) but you are correct in that all band which is venerated has certain qualities and you've enumerated a large portion of them.

Edit - Troy already typed the same thing 



PeteyG said:


> I think you're touching more on a human defect rather than something just in music, the vast majority of humankind seems to have a need to connect with something 'super-human'.



Absolutely.

I think that in some ways its that model of the "Super Human" that Nieztsche refers to but I don't think that the majority of the fans consciously make that connection - Opeth are something they aspire to, or associate with. Perhaps its the energy, or the lyrics. or the originallity, the innovation.....but they have a certain spark that clearly some people feel other contemporary bands are lacking....that certain hard to define quality.

I don't personally listen to much Meshuggah. I appreciate what they're doing from a technical/musical standpoint but I don't enjoy that level of bombast without respite. That said I don't actually own much material so perhaps if I were exposed to a wider cross-section I would see further nuances or perhaps some underlying themes I particularly enjoyed.

I'm a big Opeth fan so perhaps I shouldn't comment as it wouldn't be entirely objective - suffice to say that its simply something that meshes with me as a person.


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## troyguitar (Feb 19, 2009)

CrushingAnvil said:


> Meshuggah were doing what they do way before any of those bands



To that I have to say: Who cares?

Is the Model T the best car ever because it was the first one mass produced?

Innovation is great, but being the first to do something does not have anything at all to do with being the best at doing something.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 19, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> To that I have to say: Who cares?
> 
> Is the Model T the best car ever because it was the first one mass produced?
> 
> Innovation is great, but being the first to do something does not have anything at all to do with being the best at doing something.



I think in many ways as "best" is so subjective whilst musicians do gravitate towards the percieved "best" (most widely adored?) there's more to the subject of band/musician worship than that.....but its so very hard to actually pin down why people are so rabid about certain bands.

A certain widespread appeal? Being in touch with the masses? Innovation? Technical Excellence? Originallity? Lyrical content? All of the above?

Beats me man - perhaps its simply down to the fact that musical should be an emotional experience and they just move people


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## MatthewK (Feb 19, 2009)

Meshuggah and Opeth make sounds often described as music. Some people enjoy that music. Some people are fanatical and obsess over things. Those people should expand their horizons in my opinion. No band can ever be declared "the best". I have to say though that those two bands are definitely deserving of a little adoration.


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## hairychris (Feb 19, 2009)

drmosh said:


> omg why eat an apple if you could have a pineapple???



Because apples > pineapples?



That's just me.

Opeth are very good musos but the music doesn't do it for me. Meshuggah write, for me, great stuff (I'm a rhythm freak) but are not infallible - I hate Catch 33 and am 50/50 on Nothing, for instance...

I think that people big up Opeth because of the musicianship, and do the same to Meshuggah because of the absolutely bonkers rhythm work. ShadyDavey ^^ makes a good point - I tend to enjoy a band who's work grabs me in some emotional way, and Meshuggah do more to me then Opeth do.

Different strokes and all that.


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## drmosh (Feb 19, 2009)

hairychris said:


> Because apples > pineapples?
> 
> 
> 
> That's just me being WRONG!



there, fixed it for you


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## MerlinTKD (Feb 19, 2009)

It's funny what people choose to obsess over. I admit, I have the same types of reactions, but to different things.

I remember when I didn't get Meshuggah. It was just noise to me. I understood the whole polyrhythm/polymeter thing (hell, I'm a percussionist ) but... 

Then someone here posted the video for New Millennium Cyanide Christ... and it clicked. I got it. Seeing them do it live (more or less ), I could see not only how it fit together, but also how aggressive they were about it (a good thing for my tastes ).

Opeth... I'm still at  But then, I feel the same way about Dream Theater and JP. On the other hand, I'm a total fanboi when it comes to Sevendust! 

As has been repeated, it's all about different strokes. I've been exposed to more music here, stuff I'd never have come across otherwise. Some of it I loved, some of it I could take or leave, and some of it I've hated. And some of it I hated, only to come to enjoy it later!  Like what you like, and don't be afraid to say it; the only thing people bash around here is disrespect.


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