# Complete noob that wants to know more theory...



## Guamskyy (Jul 12, 2010)

Well I'm not a total noob, I do know basic theory, like M/min scales, chords, and triad construction, but I want to get more in depth with it, so I want to know how to make augmented and dimished chords, dominant 7th, maj7th, maj/min7th, and everything else that goes along with those. I want to learn how to shred without being too "scaly", because my improv's IMO are too scaly.

If you can explain all of this in the most simplest way possible, kudos to you

Thanks guys.


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## SeventhSon (Jul 12, 2010)

Me too. Although, I do have a word of advice considering your improv (and its over-scaliness). Just practice. Set up some backing tracks and go over them. Don't be afraid to go outside the scales either, do whatever you want. Just do it a LOT so you get good at it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 12, 2010)

*Waits quietly for SchecterWhore to DESTROY this thread will knowledge.*


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## Guamskyy (Jul 12, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> *Waits quietly for SchecterWhore to DESTROY this thread will knowledge.*


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 12, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> *Waits quietly for SchecterWhore to DESTROY this thread with knowledge.*



Pontoffel Pock, your wish has been heard, and your wish has been granted. Give me a second.


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## Empryrean (Jul 12, 2010)

you can read the thread I made when I first joined, Mike did a lot of destroying in it too 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...cked-up-one-of-those-guitar-method-books.html


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 12, 2010)

Let the destruction begin! 

You already know how to construct chords, so this should go quickly. There are a couple of methods of making triads: find a third and a fifth from the root, or stick a third on top of the root, then another third on top of that to get the fifth. We'll be talking about both, but I'm going to stress the importance of stacking thirds.


Terminology - 

Maj7 - Indicated by &#8710;. A major seventh chord.
7 - A dominant seventh chord. Same thing as M/m7.
m7 - A minor seventh chord.
m7(&#9837;5) - Indicated by ø7. A half-diminished chord, also called 'minor seventh, flat five'.
dim7 - Indicated by °7. A fully diminished seventh chord.

Alterations to chords that do not have major ninths and thirteenths, or perfect elevenths, are indicated beside the chord symbol in parentheses, in order of largest alteration to smallest.


















Here, we have taken the diatonic triads, and stacked another diatonic third on top of them to get the seventh chords. If you stack another third on top of that, you get the ninth chords, another third makes an eleventh, and one more third on top of that makes a thirteenth. For simplicity's sake, I skipped over ninths and elevenths, since they can be derived from the chord symbol of the thirteenth chord. 'Maj7' means there's a major seventh from the chord's root, '7' means there's a minor seventh from the chord's root, '°7' means that there's a diminished seventh from the chord's root. Some of those thirteenth chords are absolute nonsense, and if you ever wrote that on a leadsheet, you would be slapped. Thirteenth chords are usually restricted to Maj13, Maj13(#11), 13, and m13, including b13's, #11's, #9's, b9's and such.





As far as chord formulas go, here's how it works:


```
[b]Sevenths[/b]

Maj7 - 1 3 5 7
7 - 1 3 5 b7
m7 - 1 b3 5 b7
ø7 - 1 b3 b5 b7
°7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7

Weird ones:

m/Maj7 - 1 b3 5 7
Maj7(#5) - 1 3 #5 7
+7 [alternatively, 7(b13)] - 1 3 #5 b7
7(b5) - 1 3 b5 b7
```


```
[b]Ninths[/b]
Maj9 - 1 3 5 7 9
9 - 1 3 5 b7 9
m9 - 1 b3 5 b7 9
7(b9) - 1 3 5 b7 b9
m7(b9) - 1 b3 5 b7 b9
7(#9) - 1 3 5 b7 #9

You get it, 9 means a major ninth, (b9) means a minor ninth,
#9 is an augmented ninth or minor third in chord that already
has a major third.
```


```
[b]Elevenths[/b]

11 is a perfect eleventh, #11 is augmented.
There are diminished elevenths, but it is more likely that those will be called
major thirds than diminished elevenths.
```


```
[b]Thirteenths[/b]

13 is a major thirteenth, b13 is a minor thirteenth.
You'll rarely see augmented thirteenths, and a diminished thirteenth is just silly.
```


In terms of the function of augmented chords, I wrote in this thread recently:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...-in-relation-to-a-harmonized-major-scale.html


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## Xiphos68 (Jul 13, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Let the destruction begin!
> 
> You already know how to construct chords, so this should go quickly. There are a couple of methods of making triads: find a third and a fifth from the root, or stick a third on top of the root, then another third on top of that to get the fifth. We'll be talking about both, but I'm going to stress the importance of stacking thirds.
> 
> ...



Question? What do Bs mean?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 13, 2010)

b = flat. I could do &#9837;, but that's more work. bb is double flat (&#9837;&#9837.


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## Guamskyy (Jul 13, 2010)

Thanks a lot Schecterwhore! So this lesson is primarily on seventh chords, but now, what about suspended chords? Can you just substitute any interval and it'll be called a for example C7sus4 or something along the lines of that?

Thanks for the help, I'll need to save this


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## ozzcows (Jul 13, 2010)

guambomb832 said:


> Thanks a lot Schecterwhore! So this lesson is primarily on seventh chords, but now, what about suspended chords? Can you just substitute any interval and it'll be called a for example C7sus4 or something along the lines of that?
> 
> Thanks for the help, I'll need to save this


 
In sus4 chords, you are throwing in a perfect 4th instead of a 3rd.


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## Guamskyy (Jul 13, 2010)

ozzcows said:


> In sus4 chords, you are throwing in a perfect 4th instead of a 3rd.



Ok then, but can suspended chords be made with substitute of any interval or there are only certain ones you can do?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 13, 2010)

Typically, sus chords are sus4, and sus2 is next most common. You can substitute anything you want, but we usually have different names for it. In sus4 chords, the fourth is usually a perfect fourth, even on chords where the 4 would be augmented. Sus#4 is less common, but you might want it for a lydian effect, or something. Just so you know, replacing the third of the chord makes its identity more ambiguous, which, in turn, makes the tonality more ambiguous. This is jazz theory we're talking, though: in Common Practice Period harmony (1600'ish-1900'ish), a suspension would be resolved.






Of course, you still hear this kind of thing: it's a specific effect. If somebody just says "sus chord", then they mean a chord with a substituted fourth that does not necessarily call for resolution. In actuality, a "sus chord" is a chord with a substituted member, or, sometimes, an added member.


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## Guamskyy (Jul 13, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Typically, sus chords are sus4, and sus2 is next most common. You can substitute anything you want, but we usually have different names for it. In sus4 chords, the fourth is usually a perfect fourth, even on chords where the 4 would be augmented. Sus#4 is less common, but you might want it for a lydian effect, or something. Just so you know, replacing the third of the chord makes its identity more ambiguous, which, in turn, makes the tonality more ambiguous. This is jazz theory we're talking, though: in Common Practice Period harmony (1600'ish-1900'ish), a suspension would be resolved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks dude. But now can you teach me how to solo and improvise without being too scaly? I've notice that with fast shredders like Cooley and Loomis, they do these 3 note per string licks that seem very scale-like, but they sound pretty good. When I do something similar to that, it's very unappealing and I just get bummed that I can't make a decent solo.


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## Xiphos68 (Jul 13, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> b = flat. I could do &#9837;, but that's more work. bb is double flat (&#9837;&#9837.


Thanks. But what is a double flat?


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## Guamskyy (Jul 13, 2010)

Xiphos68 said:


> Thanks. But what is a double flat?



I think its just a full step down. Instead of a bb7, you can call it a 6.....I think.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 13, 2010)

guambomb832 said:


> Thanks dude. But now can you teach me how to solo and improvise without being too scaly? I've notice that with fast shredders like Cooley and Loomis, they do these 3 note per string licks that seem very scale-like, but they sound pretty good. When I do something similar to that, it's very unappealing and I just get bummed that I can't make a decent solo.



Focus more on chord tones. If you arpeggiate everything, though, then you sound like you're arpeggiating everything. You can connect chord tones through use of non-harmonic tones (notes that aren't in the chord), like passing tones, and embellish with neighbor tones and whatnot. Chord tones are where it's happening: they provide the direction of the music. Some tones have a greater function than other, such as the leading tone (at least in major/lydian and harmonic/melodic minor) and the dominant scale degree (the fifth). The tonic is where everything comes to rest, so I usually play around with tones that suggest the dominant chord more than the tonic.

Jazzers have this whole concept called 'target tones', which is basically picking a note in the chord that you want to end up at, and they have different ways of getting to that note. Check this out:

http://thepracticeroom.typepad.com/TC_1-4-08-2.pdf



guambomb832 said:


> I think its just a full step down. Instead of a bb7, you can call it a 6.....I think.



You can think of it that way, but know it's a diminished seventh and not a major sixth. Double flats and double sharps really aren't that scary, unless you avoid them all the time.


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## Guamskyy (Jul 13, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Focus more on chord tones. If you arpeggiate everything, though, then you sound like you're arpeggiating everything. You can connect chord tones through use of non-harmonic tones (notes that aren't in the chord), like passing tones, and embellish with neighbor tones and whatnot. Chord tones are where it's happening: they provide the direction of the music. Some tones have a greater function than other, such as the leading tone (at least in major/lydian and harmonic/melodic minor) and the dominant scale degree (the fifth). The tonic is where everything comes to rest, so I usually play around with tones that suggest the dominant chord more than the tonic.
> 
> Jazzers have this whole concept called 'target tones', which is basically picking a note in the chord that you want to end up at, and they have different ways of getting to that note. Check this out:
> 
> ...



So this is basically saying to pick a tone in that chord(or scale), target it, and build either a chromatic or diatonic run to get to that target tone?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 13, 2010)

guambomb832 said:


> So this is basically saying to pick a tone in that chord(or scale), target it, and build either a chromatic or diatonic run to get to that target tone?



Pretty much. But, like I said: some tones in a chord are more important than others, and each chord goes to another chord in a certain way.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jul 13, 2010)

Here's what Joe Satriani wrote in his Guitar World amalgamation of his monthly articles:

(from memory so might be vague)" I took lessons with jazz great, Lenny Tristano, who said something like, learn theory then forget it. He had a great excercise where you played scales to a metronome, slowly, whilst humming or singing all the notes. Once you'd played for around 3 minutes, he would ask you to imporvise. This had a profound effect and always brought me closer to the music..." Something like that anyway.

I like that one as it's a great way to play with your mind, rather than your hands (djent djent wacca wacca weeeoooo Vs. la da di, we doop da da da, da da da da dee whoop doo da... Classic, Always with you, Always with me).

On another note, I went to sell my PRS Custom 24 one day and as I joke I went into a guitar store and played that tune. The guitar salesman said "I hate people with PRS', they always come in here and play that song", so he picks it up and plays djent djent really badly, cringeworthy, then offers my £500 trade in value on my guitar. hahahahaha what a motherf*"£$. Needless to say, his store needs me about as much as I need them.

By the way, I know a lot of theory, but for me, it's more about communicating ideas efficiently and correctly to others rather than composition directly. It's useful as a tool for finding sympathetic ideas to your inspired thought and in those ways, it is invaluable to me. I also do a lot of programming in MIDI and again, it is invaluable. Although, I will admit to not using deviant scales as I don't like to out pomp my audiences.


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