# Show me some octatonic!



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 13, 2010)

Thought I'd continue the spirit of another thread I made with another symmetrical scale.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...echniques/114783-show-me-some-whole-tone.html

This thread is for the demonstration and discussion of the diminished octatonic scale, also known as the half/whole or whole/half diminished scale, the dominant scale, and probably a bunch of other names.

The octatonic scale is a collection of eight notes consisting of alternatiing tones and semitones. The formula is HWHWHWHW, or WHWHWHWH. On C, this is, respectively, C C# D# E F# G A Bb, and C D Eb F F# G# A B. A minor third (or its inversion, the major sixth) or a tritone can be built on any degree of the scale. There are only three transpositions of this scale. Within the scale, there are two modes: the H/W and W/H version of the scale. 

The octatonic scale can also be thought of as two interlocking diminished seventh chords, either a half step or whole step apart.

C°7 - C Eb Gb Bbb
C#°7 - C# E G Bb

C h/w octatonic - C C# D# E F# G A Bb

-----------------------


C°7 - C Eb Gb Bbb
D°7 - D F Ab Cb

C w/h octatonic - C D Eb F Gb Ab A B

----------------------


You can also derive an octatonic scale from a chromatic scale by removing one diminished seventh chords from the pitch collection.


Some music that uses this scale:



0:38 - 1:02, and whenever that riff comes up.





2:24 - 3:21, 3:43 - 4:28, 4:53 - 5:03 (there's some sequencing here), 9:11 - end.

These last musical example does a good job of outlining a minor triad and occasionally introducing the flattened second and raised third to give it a minor tonal feel, with some outside notes.

Stravinsky used this scale extensively. I'll post the Rite of Spring later and point out some things that he does.

A nice article on Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms:

Guitar Messenger &#8211; The Octatonic Scale & Symphony of Psalms (Stravinsky)



Some examples of composition ideas:

Octatonic Resources



If anyone else has anything, please feel free to share. I feel that I don't know this scale well enough, and would like to see some resources here for people in the same situation.


----------



## Maniacal (Oct 13, 2010)

How can you compare the shit known as Death to Stravinksky.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 13, 2010)

They're both using the octatonic scale as a compositional tool. That's how.


----------



## Waelstrum (Oct 13, 2010)

3:54 - 4:00
has WH harmonised in fourths. I think that the chords a few seconds before that are based on the scale, but I'm not sure and tired as hell.



found this guy when I typed in octatonic scale on youtube.


----------



## drmosh (Oct 14, 2010)

Maniacal said:


> How can you compare the shit known as Death to Stravinksky.



oh, you don't like it, it must be shit.


----------



## Prydogga (Oct 14, 2010)

Maniacal said:


> How can you compare the shit known as Death to Stravinksky.


Firstly, he's not comparing, he's finding a relation between the two because they both share the same scale. 

Secondly, what Mosh said.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 14, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> 3:54 - 4:00
> has WH harmonised in fourths. I think that the chords a few seconds before that are based on the scale, but I'm not sure and tired as hell.



I'm listening to this, and I'm hearing harmonic minor where you're indicating.  The main riff has that ambiguous movement from tonic to fifth to augmented fourth, though, which can have an octatonic feel in a certain context, though the material is not sufficient here to call it so.


---------------------------




0:55 - 0:57, the notes in the consequent part of the riff are E F G Ab G F Db (E h/w diminished is E F G Ab Bb Cb Db D), but my thoughts are that this figure is part of C phrygian dominant, C Db E F G Ab Bb, as the rest of the riff completes the scale. The octatonic scale has flavors that are present in other scales, such as the natural minor and harmonic minor, so while there is some parallelism, I would not say that this example is definitively octatonic. The figure in question, however, has a fundamentally octatonic feel to it, what with the minor seconds, presence of a minor and major third , tritone...

On a similar note, a composer by the name of Dmitri Tymoczko argues that many of the passages in Igor Stravinsky's Le Sacre du Printemps that have previously been labeled as octatonic by Pieter van der Toorn , as well as others, are, in fact, aggregates of other scalar material and contain non-octatonic elements. Looking at the score, I have to admit that I agree with him. A lot of the elements that I previously interpreted as octatonic really make more sense as minor tetrachords removed from the octatonic context, and things like that. Rite of Spring, pending. I'm going to take a closer look at the score, which might take a while, since every page from the 160 page score looks like an unrecognizable variation on this:







Yes, that is nine notes in the space of five. 

This entire page is only two measures:


----------



## bostjan (Oct 14, 2010)

The leading whole tone diminished octatonic and leading half tone diminished octatonics are also used commonly in standard blues progressions over the V7 chord. Robben Ford discusses this in his REH video. These are scales I use primarily only for this purpose.

Also, the Shamisen guy is playing an octatonic spanish scale, not a diminished scale.

The Arch Enemy clip is not octatonic, it fits right into the the double harmonic scale that is being used throughout.

None of these metal clips are really the traditional octatonic diminished scales, but I think that the Death clip uses the scale in a different way, but could be analyzed by different theorists maybe in different ways.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 14, 2010)

bostjan said:


> The leading whole tone diminished octatonic and leading half tone diminished octatonics are also used commonly in standard blues progressions over the V7 chord. Robben Ford discusses this in his REH video. These are scales I use primarily only for this purpose.



Truth. The half/whole version is associated with a V7b9 chord, and the whole/half version with the fully diminished seventh chord (although the half/whole applies here equally).



> The Arch Enemy clip is not octatonic, it fits right into the the double harmonic scale that is being used throughout.



I addressed this.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 14, 2010)

Generation of octatonics in general is as easy as choosing a scale and adding a note. Typically the note added is an alternate seventh or an alternate fifth.

For example:
Major Scale: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 OR
Dominant Scale: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

can be made into the Octatonic Blues Scale: 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 7


Phrygian Mode: 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 OR
Locrian Mode: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

can be made into: 1 b2 b3 4 b5 5 b6 b7, which works well in death metal similar to the clips supplied in this thread.

The diminished octatonics can be used to build tension in a movement of music, then the tension can be resolved to the tonic, which is typically natural minor, harmonic minor, or dorian mode. It can also be used as a tool to accomplish atonality if it never resolves to a distinct tonic. In that case, care must be taken *not* to establish a root note.

Do you guys have tabs of the clips you posted?

I'll try to find a clip of this being used in a bluesier setting, which I have somewhere...


----------



## Waelstrum (Oct 14, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> I'm listening to this, and I'm hearing harmonic minor where you're indicating.  The main riff has that ambiguous movement from tonic to fifth to augmented fourth, though, which can have an octatonic feel in a certain context, though the material is not sufficient here to call it so.
> 
> [/IMG]



You are correct sir, for some reason, I had decided to play along and throw in a b5 there, making the melody F E F G F G Ab G Ab Bb Cb Ab Cb G Cb etc...

Now that I realise that it's not that, I'm rather disappointed. 

I guess that's what happens when one hears what one would have written instead of what was there. 

On a side note, I would have thought there'd be much more octatonic in metal than there appears to be.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 14, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> On a side note, I would have thought there'd be much more octatonic in metal than there appears to be.



I definitely agree with you. It seems that metal is more apt to minor scales and their modes, however. My theory is that the octatonic scale, by its very nature, has little tonal tendency, and that metal, while often very chromatic, is still a strongly tonal style. I've also observed that a good chunk of metal musicians want their music to be "in this scale," or "in that scale," implying that somewhere in there, there's a natural resolving tone. So it may be that they ignore a pitch palette that is traditionally not self-contained. Its use in jazz is much more understandable, because jazz thinks along the lines of individual chords representing a scale, or vice versa. There, it doesn't matter if there is resolution within the use of a particular scale, because the progression will eventually resolve anyway. Metal's modal progressions don't typically account for this.

I have methods for using the octatonic scale within my own compositions so that extended passages are possible and even frequent in some pieces, but the nature of the scale is to provide a harmonic function, so that even after a minute or so of exploring this diminished scale, it turns out it's a dominant sonority of some sort. This is actually a big part of my view on note choice, and I'm sure it's not an uncommon one: in the tonal style, you can put pretty much anything where a V chord goes, be it a chromatic scale, whole tone, octatonic, and even modes that don't include a major third. Of course, this splits dominant functions into two varieties: leading tone sonorities, and subtonic sonorities. The leading tone variety (V, V+, V(b5), any of those plus a seventh, and vii°7) is more useful for most modern metal, perhaps excluding "folk" metal and the ilk where the natural minor is prominent and the seventh degree of the scale is the subtonic b7.


----------



## Keytarist (Oct 14, 2010)

This is an excerpt from the first movement of Maurice Ravel String Quartet in F Major. The red rectangles show a sequence of the octatonic scale in either the first or second violin. The blue rectangles show a diminished seventh arpeggio (taken from the octatonic scale) played in the viola. 
Check the attachment.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 15, 2010)

Marvelous! Nice to get some impressionist examples in there. If anybody's wondering, those measures start at 0:45 here:





bostjan said:


> Do you guys have tabs of the clips you posted?



I'll work on putting some notation out for my examples, if only for the specific figures in question. I'm doing homework tonight, so it'll be a while yet.


----------



## Holy Katana (Oct 15, 2010)

I'm absolutely in love with the octatonic scale. There's so much delicious harmony that it can breed.

Just out of curiosity, SchecterWhore, do you know much about Stravinsky's harmonic language? I've always been completely mystified by it. Although this is probably at least partly due to the fact that I haven't been able to get my hands on any of his scores.

I particularly like his use of super-duper-crazy-polychords-from-hell. Like the famous Eb7/Fb chord in The Rite of Spring. I tend to use Hindemithian analysis on polychords, since I think it's interesting, but are there any other approaches to analyzing these types of chords from a tonal perspective?


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 15, 2010)

Holy Katana said:


> I'm absolutely in love with the octatonic scale. There's so much delicious harmony that it can breed.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, SchecterWhore, do you know much about Stravinsky's harmonic language? I've always been completely mystified by it. Although this is probably at least partly due to the fact that I haven't been able to get my hands on any of his scores.
> 
> I particularly like his use of super-duper-crazy-polychords-from-hell. Like the famous Eb7/Fb chord in The Rite of Spring. I tend to use Hindemithian analysis on polychords, since I think it's interesting, but are there any other approaches to analyzing these types of chords from a tonal perspective?




Stravinsky liked to superimpose tonalities and scales. You mentioned the Augurs chord (Eb7/Fb), and that, at its simplest analysis, is two major chords a semitone apart. One of them happens to have a minor seventh. Truth is, this happens quite a bit in Stravinsky's early ballets. If you look at the "Petrushka chord" (C/F#), it's a major triad superimposed at the tritone. I think the van der Toorn guy that I mentioned before tries to explain this as an octatonic sonority (which it potentially is), but that Tymoczko fellow is probably closer in saying that it's just a couple major triads a tritone apart. He'll do this with scales, too, running two melodic minor scales a major second apart and other ideas like that. It's not the most systematic harmonic vocabulary, but he makes it work wonderfully.

One thing that really helps to understand Stravinsky is his development as a composer. If I remember correctly, he had three significant periods (like a lot of these guys do): his Russian period, neoclassical period, and serialist period. The Russian period is probably what most people are familiar with, and includes the three ballets, l'Oiseau de Feu (The Firebird), Petrushka, and Le Sacre du Printemps (The Rite of Spring). Russian culture was a novelty in Paris when Stravinsky was writing these things, so he uses a bunch of elements that evoke images of Russia: odd meters, chromatic melodies and harmonies, and Russian subject matter. The Firebird is a Russian fairytale, Petrushka has a performing bear, and The Rite is about ancient Russian tribes sacrificing virgins. Stravinsky was very theatrical with this stuff, which is a behavior that I think he shares with W.A. Mozart. His showmanship is pretty evident throughout his career, and I think it's worth noting that he didn't just write notes on a page.

Musically, the Russian period shows a development of his harmonic language that can be traced through the three ballets. His style in the Firebird is quite impressionistic, and contains some very Romantic passages that he probably ripped off from his teacher, Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov (whose aunt was a total babe).











Anyway, there's this great book that has a little bit of information on everything Stravinsky's done. Very insightful. 

Amazon.com: Stravinsky: The Composer and His Works, Second edition (9780520039858): Eric Walter White: Books

For the Firebird, the book explains that human characters (Prince Ivan) are given diatonic motives, while magical characters (the firebird, Kaschei, etc.) have chromatic motives. It goes on to say more badass stuff and gets into specific notes a bit, as well as providing a sparse biography. And it's not impossible to read, so I consider it to be a pretty good Stravinsky companion. Know by now that the Firebird was a big hit when it premiered.

In Petrushka, Stravinsky discards his impressionist influences and starts to hammer out a more 'Russian' sound, with more original harmonies and complex rhythms. I don't have a lot to say about this one, but this, too, was a big hit.

Then there was the Rite of Spring. Not such a big hit. Fistfights broke out at the premiere. Riots ensued. That was probaby Diaghilev's doing to get publicity, but Igor considered it to be a disaster. This is the realization of the Russian period, what with the crazy rhythms and chaotic harmonic structures. One thing that he does in the Rite that gives it a special feel is alternating between quiet and calm, and loud and lunacy. There's really not a whole lot of melody in this ballet; it's just a bunch of noises most of the time. My former music teacher summed it up best by imagining a guy coming home to his wife. "How was the ballet?" "RRAH! RrrrGA! GRHAGHA RA!" 

Did I mention that Stravinsky was the biggest plagiarist ever? While he was working on the Rite, Stravinsky was also composing an opera. Check this out (just listen to the first ten seconds or so of each):

Debussy - Nuages


Stravinsky - Le Rossignol (Introduction)


That opera is interesting in that it returns to some of the old impressionist ideas. Of course, if you're copying Debussy, it's kind of hard not to. 

Then, Diaghilev made Stravinsky write a ballet in eighteenth century style (Pulcinella), and I stopped caring. I can't say much about Stravinsky's neoclassical works, except that I don't like them. His serialist stuff is supposedly insane, though.

Anyway, I've spoken enough about Stravinsky. There's some great literature out there, as well as documentaries (check out Michael Tilson Thomas' 'Keeping Score' on the Rite). If you want scores, send me a PM, and I'll hook you up.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 19, 2010)

Béla Bartók - Concerto For Orchestra - First Movement - 5:37



Measures 248-272. The scale being used is the W/H octatonic on A, A B C D Eb F F# G#. You'll notice the introduction of the note, Bb, in the second violin part in measure 254. Yeah, that's not in the scale I mentioned, but if you look at it from a contrapuntal perspective, the figure is inverted and transposed.











There's more octatonic stuff in this concerto. I'll get to it, eventually. Notice that the opening of the first movement consists of stacked fourths. Not really an octatonic texture, but I thought I'd point it out, because it's cool.




More Bartók! This is the fifth and final movement of his fourth string quartet. OOOOOOCCCCTTTTAAAATTTTOOOONNNIIIICCCC!



I don't have a score for it, but I think it's rather obvious in this example (the entire thing uses the diminished octatonic scale).


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 19, 2010)

Double post.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Nov 20, 2010)

Adagio - Seven Lands of Sin - If I'm not mistaken, the intro to this song uses this scale, and we also get it at 4:27 up until the keyboard solo. I'm not sure on this one, though; my ear for octatonic isn't as good as I would like it to be at times.


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 21, 2010)

I know David T Chastain used it in his...*ahem*..song "Wild and Truly Diminished" but it was a very blatant use over a simpler progression than you might enjoy. Perhaps it was for the best that I couldn't find any videos on YT?


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Nov 21, 2010)

ShadyDavey said:


> I know David T Chastain used it in his...*ahem*..song "Wild and Truly Diminished" but it was a very blatant use over a simpler progression than you might enjoy. Perhaps it was for the best that I couldn't find any videos on YT?



Simple is good, too. I'd like the purpose of these threads to be to help people develop an ear for harmonic ideas beyond the standard diatonic and chromatic harmonies, and to give ideas for application.


----------



## ShadyDavey (Nov 22, 2010)

I'll try and dig out a copy then - it's all over the Becker/Friedman collaborations but a very specific example doesn't spring to mind as yet.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Nov 22, 2010)

Maurice Ravel - Le Gibet from Gaspard de la Nuit - Not all of it, but quite a bit of it. I'm looking for a score to give precise examples, although it's pretty easy to hear in this one that it's either chromatic, pentatonic, octatonic, or diatonically derived.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 8, 2011)

Been a while since I posted in this thread. Octatonic examples are a little difficult to come by. I found one for sure, and I have a couple more that I'm going to have to look at a little more closely.

Discipline - Into The Dream - 0:00-0:33


----------



## OwainXerath (Mar 8, 2011)

I'll be back when Xerath II's out to post an example. There's a clip on Amazon of it, but it's of the 5% of the song that's not in W/H diminished


----------



## Bakerman (Mar 8, 2011)

15:40-15:58, 16:07-16:26, 16:58-17:30, 18:18-18:28 = F whole/half


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 8, 2011)

Octavarium, Sweet. Nice find. Also, whole tone scale from 17:31-:38



OwainXerath said:


> I'll be back when Xerath II's out to post an example. There's a clip on Amazon of it, but it's of the 5% of the song that's not in W/H diminished



Cool. Thanks ahead of time.


----------



## OwainXerath (Apr 25, 2011)

Right, had to wait until the album was out. D whole/half kicks in around 0:40 and it carries on until the Indiana Jones bit I think


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 15, 2011)

Ancient - Um Sonho Psycodelico - 1:02


Emperor - I Am The Black Wizards - 4:05


Also, the Death video from the OP was deleted some time ago, so I'll put it up again. [Edit: Forget it, wrong scale.]

Death - Empty Words - 0:38 (Also, as somebody pointed out in the comments, 2:22 - "Eat potato!" )


----------



## Bakerman (May 15, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> Death - Empty Words - 0:38



I think something like Eb Hungarian minor (and Dorian in 4th/8th measures) would be a more fitting description. First 3 notes are Bb A F which don't fit into one octatonic scale.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 15, 2011)

Bakerman said:


> I think something like Eb Hungarian minor (and Dorian in 4th/8th measures) would be a more fitting description. First 3 notes are Bb A F which don't fit into one octatonic scale.



Right you are. It's entirely possible that my analysis was completely off, or I had a different Death song in mind. Unfortunately, I can't remember specifically what I was describing. Hmm!


----------



## in-pursuit (May 22, 2011)

i _think _i managed to write some octatonic music the other day after reading this thread, just for the fun of trying something new. i'll post the link once i unfuck the recording haha!


----------



## Greatoliver (May 22, 2011)

Is the octatonic essentially the diminished scale then?

If so, the into to this is roughly written around it, there are a few notes that don't fit it tho...


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 22, 2011)

Greatoliver said:


> Is the octatonic essentially the diminished scale then?



Yes.



> If so, the into to this is roughly written around it, there are a few notes that don't fit it tho...



Yeah, a good chunk of it is octatonic. Good find.


----------

