# Chinese Fakemachine build thread



## mortbopet

*DISCLAIMER*: i am quite confident that alot of you guys probably don't condone buying replica/copy guitars. I too think it's immoral but the fact is that i will never ever be able to afford a true blackmachine. I took this as an adventure - for the good and the bad which comes with it.

Onto the real thing!

Browsed around on Aliexpress and found a dealer who had some Blackmachine style guitars on sale, which didn't look like complete s*** in the pictures (Some copies are very ... "bottom" heavy in the design, and just looks wrong").
I decided to chat with the guy about how far i could take it within the price range, in terms of customizing the guitar.

Onto the real deal - these are the specs of the guitar.

*Specs:
*The basis is a Blackmachine B2
25.5" scale length
ivoroid binding around entire guitar
Ash Body (we'll see how many pieces its going to be)
Maple neck
Ebony fretboard
String through body
Jumbo frets
Bone nut
a neck joint similar to regular blackmachines (knockoff guitar neckjoints are usually "strat style")
Burl top on both body and headstock
Reverse blue burst color (think Skervesen).


*Expectations:*
Bordering none.
I have read both good and bad about these guitars, and since the seller is relatively new and doesn't have any significant feedback, it's a pure gamble. 
what i HOPE for though, is that the general workmanship is somewhat okay. This way, the guitar could be used for a modder/project guitar to learn fretwork etc.

*Price:* 370$ + 20$ (ebony fretboard) - will be updated, since import taxes will most likely be applied.
Free shipping via. EMS

*Build time:
*Seller expects a 10-14 day build time. Shipment will most likely be 10-20, days

*Pictures: 
*a picture of their B2 model:






A picture of the back. No "blackmachine" plate, which i most definitely prefer. This way it isn't a direct copy, but more of an unlicensed replica.





The coming posts will be about the process of ordering and will be continually updated with build pics (the guy promised to send loads of pictures, so fingers crossed!)

*Edit #1: *added bone nut to the spec list


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## mortbopet

*UPDATE #1*:
I asked the seller to see a variety of burl tops available. The guy was quick to respond with 5 different tops, differing in burl amount and figuring. Seeing the tops made my expectations for the guitar alittle better, since the chosen top doesn't look "cheap", as far as i'm concerned.
Albeit late, i asked the seller if he could make the nut in bone. He responded with a yes - so here's to yet another spec that needs to be fulfulled.


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## ASoC

I will be following this


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## Zai

Is Doug even taking orders anymore? Because if not I have no problem with this build. Good for you man it'll look great! It's going to be cool to see a stained BM because he only does natrual finishes!


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## Ianus

subscribed, really interesting. dont expect anything good on this though.


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## Vicious7

I hope this works out for you! 10-14 days build time?? Good luck man, I'll definitely be following this.


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## asher

I've heard horror stories of copy guitars being so bad you can't actually salvage them, but I hope that won't be the case for you!


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## Hollowway

I have less of a concern about them copying the Blackmachine and more of a concern of you getting what you pay for. I'm not sure how you could even buy the parts for that price, much less any labor profit.


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## Alex Kenivel

Have fun...


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## Daf57

Subbed for updates - good luck, man!


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## Curt

A blackmachine rip for $400? I hope you at least get what you paid for. I can't see this going well.


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## splinter8451

I have been so tempted to order one of these. The dude has some sick looking Teles too. 

I am excited to see how it comes out man!


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## capoeiraesp

I sure hope they don't call that swamp ash on the stock body picture. I've never seen swamp as like that.


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## mortbopet

Vicious7 said:


> I hope this works out for you! 10-14 days build time?? Good luck man, I'll definitely be following this.


These guitars are basically built at factories with a set spec list, and just handed over to the next one when the worker responsible for his job is done with it.


capoeiraesp said:


> I sure hope they don't call that swamp ash on the stock body picture. I've never seen swamp as like that.


They dont. I asked the guy if it could be swamp ash, and he said that it was not available. Next up, i asked him if it could be a 1 piece body - still impossible, since they dont have that big pieces of wood. 
I'll most likely expect some kind of northern ash. If there is one thing that i have learned so far about this seller, it's that he answers me with plausible answers, and doesn't sugarcoat everything.

to everyone writing that it's basically a piece of firewood i'm going to recieve, i share your concern!
As written in the OP, i expect close to nothing from this guitar.
I decided to buy and write this thread, because i could see alot of people (like myself) getting tempted to buy these guitars - but there's no resources or threads like these available on the internet. Sellers get eternally good feedback and - come on - that isn't even possible. 
So consider it me taking one for the team and giving you a no fuzz explanation of the process and the final product recieved. If anything, to act as an act of caution for future buyers.


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## mortbopet

To those of you who wonder how the finish is going to be, here's some sample pictures of the color:










I guess it's up to the individual if that finish is pretty or ugly .
As i see it, my chosen top has a bit more figuring than the one in the sample picture.


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## Sparkplug

nice pics dude. At least, you will have a nice decoration if it's unplayable. where did you find that shop?


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## capoeiraesp

At least it'll be better than an Etherial.


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## mortbopet

Sparkplug said:


> nice pics dude. At least, you will have a nice decoration if it's unplayable. where did you find that shop?



It's an Aliexpress reseller called Randy Custom; http://www.aliexpress.com/store/1517077 
A couple of resellers sells identical blackmachines - i suspect this is because its different people trying to make money off the same factory. I chose this guy because he seemed the most responsive to my posts. 
A Mayones just went up on his site to, but i wouldn't recommend getting one of those, since mayones guitars arent out-of-this-world expensive and alot easier to get, than a blackmachine.

- but again, please don't take this as a recommendation. I will be writing my final thoughts and recommendation when i recieve the guitar and try it out.


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## Chokey Chicken

mortbopet said:


> These guitars are basically built at factories with a set spec list, and just handed over to the next one when the worker responsible for his job is done with it.
> 
> They dont. I asked the guy if it could be swamp ash, and he said that it was not available. Next up, i asked him if it could be a 1 piece body - still impossible, since they dont have that big pieces of wood.
> I'll most likely expect some kind of northern ash. If there is one thing that i have learned so far about this seller, it's that he answers me with plausible answers, and doesn't sugarcoat everything.
> 
> to everyone writing that it's basically a piece of firewood i'm going to recieve, i share your concern!
> As written in the OP, i expect close to nothing from this guitar.
> I decided to buy and write this thread, because i could see alot of people (like myself) getting tempted to buy these guitars - but there's no resources or threads like these available on the internet. Sellers get eternally good feedback and - come on - that isn't even possible.
> So consider it me taking one for the team and giving you a no fuzz explanation of the process and the final product recieved. If anything, to act as an act of caution for future buyers.



Even if the guitar is good, that still doesn't make the process recommendable. Guitars get siezed, lost, broken, and/or arrive unplayable and unfixable.

Microphonic pups, broken truss rods, sharp uneven frets, corkscrew necks, and broken guitars are pretty much par for the course. If you get a good one, it doesn't change that it's a crap shoot every time you order. Using the guise of "taking one for the team" is laughable, as these Chinese replicas are pretty well documented on YouTube and all around the internet. Call it what it is; a desperate attempt at getting something you thought was impossible to get before due to price/time issues.

Don't get me wrong, I don't exactly blame you, especially since the alternative isn't something as simple as saving your pennies and going to guitar center like the countless counterfeit gibsons out there. I do hope you at least get what you pay for. If it arrives in one piece, at the very least it'll be a nice wall decoration. It's also not unfathomable that it'll be a decent enough guitar, and I hope that turns out to be the case. It's just the "taking one for the team" thing rubbed me the wrong way, like you're trying to justify doing something you know is wrong or silly.

Good luck, dude. I'll probably passively watch this thread just to see how it turns out for you.


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## Lorcan Ward

Hollowway said:


> I'm not sure how you could even buy the parts for that price, much less any labor profit.



At that price the labor might not even be legal or even voluntary.


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## Konfyouzd

People say not to buy Antoniotsai basses too. I snagged a 7 string fretted Ritter copy from him. It plays fine. The electronics suck, but are usable and the finish just isn't super nice. I had to do some sanding and oiling myself, but other than that it *was* quite playable and it didn't have a single rough fret end. And I've known Ibanez to send me some rough fret ends from time to time... 

For what it's worth, I paid $700 for it. I've seen them as low as $400 but the specs appear to be different. I actually contacted them and asked if they'll do a purple flame topped fretless one with a maple board. They said they'd do it for the same price I bought this one for and I'm tempted to do it.

I think this might turn out playable just not perfect in finish.


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## mortbopet

Hollowway said:


> I have less of a concern about them copying the Blackmachine and more of a concern of you getting what you pay for. I'm not sure how you could even buy the parts for that price, much less any labor profit.





Lorcan Ward said:


> At that price the labor might not even be legal or even voluntary.



I'm pretty sure that the workers are working close to, if not below, the minimum wage in china.
When thinking about it - and i'm only speaking for my self and my own reasoning -, i wonder how zzound is able to sell a cheap ibanez GRX20Z for only 150$. Ibanez GRX20Z Electric Guitar, Jewel Blue, which is made in China.
The main argument for that is, that they have a much bigger factory and are capable of mass production. But you still need to consider the fact, that the profit margin still has to include both zzound as a retailer and reseller and ibanez as a corporation. 
My guitar is bought through a middle man, but technically straight from the factory, meaning that besides the factory itself (labour, materials etc.), only the middleman will be looking for a profit.




Chokey Chicken said:


> Even if the guitar is good, that still doesn't make the process recommendable. Guitars get siezed, lost, broken, and/or arrive unplayable and unfixable.
> 
> Microphonic pups, broken truss rods, sharp uneven frets, corkscrew necks, and broken guitars are pretty much par for the course. If you get a good one, it doesn't change that it's a crap shoot every time you order. Using the guise of "taking one for the team" is laughable, as these Chinese replicas are pretty well documented on YouTube and all around the internet. Call it what it is; a desperate attempt at getting something you thought was impossible to get before due to price/time issues. ...



Well, in a way, i cant argue against you. I think its inherently human to look for justification when doing a risky investment, this being buying stocks, buying a house or in this case taking a long shot with a chinese guitar. 
For me, it's up to the reader to consider this thread either a justification of my own unwillingness to just realise that no matter what, im going to recieve a sub-par guitar - or consider it an exciting/terrifying/strange read about how ordering these guitars, how they are produced and how the final product will be. 
I may have phrased it wrong when i wrote "taking one for the team". That team certainly *is not* ss.org as a whole, but instead those people who like me - after reading and viewing countless reports of broken necks, bad craftmanship and generally terrible instruments - still think that they are the ones who's going to recieve that one "good" guitar, because they might be able to convince the reseller about doing an extra good job on quality control etc. (I'm pretty sure that the dude which im talking to, doesn't ever get to see the finished guitar.).


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## Hollowway

Everybody that buys these says they're doing it as research for the rest of us. But there are oodles of people on here that have bought them. Some come out ok, others are completely unplayable. I think it's fine to buy one, but I get irritated when people say they're doing it just to see, so that we can all know. We already do know! 

At any rate, I hope it comes out ok, because you've specced it out exactly the way I would! Looks awesome!


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## GraemeH

With these Aliexpress/DHgate etc guitars, I'd only say go ahead if;
1. You've budgeted to replace all the hardware (pots, pickups, at least the saddles possible the whole bridge), nut and tuners.
2. You're well capable of set up work yourself - fret leveling and re-crowning included.

But having said that, the same is true for buying a £150-£300 guitar from a big name manufacturer, it's not exclusive to the Chinese copies. Hell, I had to do all that on a £600 Ibanez to get it "right".

The only way a guitar would be "unsalvagable" is if it was a set neck that wasn't at nearly the right angle (if it's a bolt-on you can re-finish the pocket yourself), or if the truss rod bolt is stripped so you can't set it up.
I would also be wary of giving specific higher-end spec to them to build to - i.e. bone nut and ebony fretboard. If it's cheaper and they can get away with it, they'll use something that looks enough like bone and black stained rosewood instead and increase their profit margin a bit.

Someone mentioned customs seizures - that's only going to happen if there's a brand on it, or if it's a super recognizable shape like a Les Paul. I'd always recommend to people to request no logo (or a custom logo) from the manufacturer so there's no legal or moral issue.

If you're willing and capable of all that, you can get some guitars that play decently and look fantastic for their cost.

Side-note; I find it amusing that a fake coming from China is called a "fake", but a fake made in 'murica, like Slash's Les Paul, is called a "replica". Food for racist thought.


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## mortbopet

GraemeH said:


> With these Aliexpress/DHgate etc guitars, I'd only say go ahead if;
> 1. You've budgeted to replace all the hardware (pots, pickups, at least the saddles possible the whole bridge), nut and tuners.
> 2. You're well capable of set up work yourself - fret leveling and re-crowning included.
> 
> But having said that, the same is true for buying a £150-£300 guitar from a big name manufacturer, it's not exclusive to the Chinese copies. Hell, I had to do all that on a £600 Ibanez to get it "right".
> 
> The only way a guitar would be "unsalvagable" is if it was a set neck that wasn't at nearly the right angle (if it's a bolt-on you can re-finish the pocket yourself), or if the truss rod bolt is stripped so you can't set it up.
> 
> Someone mentioned customs seizures - that's only going to happen if there's a brand on it, or if it's a super recognizable shape like a Les Paul. I'd always recommend to people to request no logo (or a custom logo) from the manufacturer so there's no legal or moral issue.
> 
> If you're willing and capable of all that, you can get some guitars that play decently and look fantastic for their cost.
> 
> Side-note; I find it amusing that a fake coming from China is called a "fake", but a fake made in 'murica, like Slash's Les Paul, is called a "replica". Food for racist thought.



Thats pretty much my point. I'm ready and prepared to do alot of work on it myself when it arrives. I'd never buy a set neck guitar from one of these sellers, since most of the "horror stories" are based upon set neck guitars where the joint has failed during shipping. There is not nearly as many accounts of broken bolt-on necks.


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## Sparkplug

thanks for your answer. definately looking forward to some updates. Do you know how much taxes you will have to pay?


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## mortbopet

Sparkplug said:


> thanks for your answer. definately looking forward to some updates. Do you know high much taxes you will have to pay?



That's a tough question to answer, and it all depends on if, and how much they value the guitar at.
As far as i know, the seller will mark it as a gift and value it around 50-100$. But my experience with the Danish customs service has so far been, that they ain't stupid . So i'm expecting to pay full duty and tax.

Let's say it gets valued at the purchase price of 390$.
VAT is 25% in Denmark (19% in Germany if i recall correctly) and duty for guitars importet to Denmark is 3.7%

Calculating with duty's first and then VAT from that:
390+390*3.7%= $404
404+404*25%= $505 = &#8364;437

But i'm ofcourse hoping that they don't value it at that. Since it will contain no serial number or backplate to identify it, it's basically just a "brandless" guitar.


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## vansinn

It'll be interesting to see the finished product - and moreover, audio/video for the verdict 

My two sets of negative pants would be: why so keen on shopping copycats, and why this love relationship with sub-$too-little-for-real-value


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## Hollowway

Oh wow, Slash's LPs aren't built by Gibson? Who builds his guitars?


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## Hollowway

My bad. Carry on!


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## Chokey Chicken

GraemeH said:


> With these Aliexpress/DHgate etc guitars, I'd only say go ahead if;
> 1. You've budgeted to replace all the hardware (pots, pickups, at least the saddles possible the whole bridge), nut and tuners.
> 2. You're well capable of set up work yourself - fret leveling and re-crowning included.
> 
> But having said that, the same is true for buying a £150-£300 guitar from a big name manufacturer, it's not exclusive to the Chinese copies. Hell, I had to do all that on a £600 Ibanez to get it "right".
> 
> The only way a guitar would be "unsalvagable" is if it was a set neck that wasn't at nearly the right angle (if it's a bolt-on you can re-finish the pocket yourself), or if the truss rod bolt is stripped so you can't set it up.
> I would also be wary of giving specific higher-end spec to them to build to - i.e. bone nut and ebony fretboard. If it's cheaper and they can get away with it, they'll use something that looks enough like bone and black stained rosewood instead and increase their profit margin a bit.
> 
> Someone mentioned customs seizures - that's only going to happen if there's a brand on it, or if it's a super recognizable shape like a Les Paul. I'd always recommend to people to request no logo (or a custom logo) from the manufacturer so there's no legal or moral issue.
> 
> If you're willing and capable of all that, you can get some guitars that play decently and look fantastic for their cost.
> 
> Side-note; I find it amusing that a fake coming from China is called a "fake", but a fake made in 'murica, like Slash's Les Paul, is called a "replica". Food for racist thought.



I'm with you right up until the end section. Anything that resembles a Les Paul is a knock off/replica of an American guitar. For instance, Chinese epiphone LP's are replica/knock offs of the Gibson USA alternative the same way Korean Agile's, LTD's, and countless other brands have them.

Perhaps I missed something though. Did some non-Gibson company make a guitar with the Gibson logo, fake serial number, and no artist permission?


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## GraemeH

Yup, exactly as you said in the last sentence - Slash's famous yellow "AFD Les Paul" was a replica/fake of a '59 'Paul made by a California luthier, not Gibson, but with the Gibson logos on it. The same as these Chinese guitars come with Gibson logos on them.

Of course, much later he got the Gibson artist hookups and signature model so now most of his Les Pauls are Gibson made, but the original "AFD Les Paul", which people refer to as a "replica", rather more flatteringly than a "fake", isn't.

Here are a few sources;
&#8217;59 Les Paul replica built by Kris Derrig | Slash's World
The Legend of Slash
Welcome to the Kris Derrig Fan Site
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151998278198816.37807.151834768215167

etc.


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## Hollowway

GraemeH said:


> Yup, exactly as you said in the last sentence - Slash's famous yellow "AFD Les Paul" was a replica/fake of a '59 'Paul made by a California luthier, not Gibson, but with the Gibson logos on it. The same as these Chinese guitars come with Gibson logos on them.
> 
> Of course, much later he got the Gibson artist hookups and signature model so now most of his Les Pauls are Gibson made, but the original "AFD Les Paul", which people refer to as a "replica", rather more flatteringly than a "fake", isn't.
> 
> Here are a few sources;
> 59 Les Paul replica built by Kris Derrig | Slash's World
> The Legend of Slash
> Welcome to the Kris Derrig Fan Site
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151998278198816.37807.151834768215167
> 
> etc.



Well, I stand corrected! You're right - that SHOULD count as a fake, not a replica. Putting the Gibson logo on it pretty much sealed the deal. 
Thanks for correcting me on that. I had no idea. The More You Know!


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## Chokey Chicken

GraemeH said:


> Yup, exactly as you said in the last sentence - Slash's famous yellow "AFD Les Paul" was a replica/fake of a '59 'Paul made by a California luthier, not Gibson, but with the Gibson logos on it. The same as these Chinese guitars come with Gibson logos on them.
> 
> Of course, much later he got the Gibson artist hookups and signature model so now most of his Les Pauls are Gibson made, but the original "AFD Les Paul", which people refer to as a "replica", rather more flatteringly than a "fake", isn't.
> 
> Here are a few sources;
> 59 Les Paul replica built by Kris Derrig | Slash's World
> The Legend of Slash
> Welcome to the Kris Derrig Fan Site
> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.151998278198816.37807.151834768215167
> 
> etc.



Yeah, that's ....ed. It's marked as something it's not, and therefore is just as much a fake as any of these other Chinese ones.


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## Rusty_Tambourine

Really interested to see how this turns out - I'm a Southpaw, so guitar options from established companies can still be limited without turning to custom orders. My only experience of 'click-and-hope' has been with an Agile 8 string which, on reflection was a great guitar to play - but I never melded with. I sold it for a big loss, but it went to a good home. Other was a Thomann ESP/LTD EC-1000 - which is now my main guitar which you will prise from my dead hands. Good luck, and look forward to a review.


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## katsusand

I played that "Chinamachine" guitar.
That's very heavy...(over 3.5kg I think)
And heard from owner that had a some very big problem.
Plugs are suck and very difficult to pull. 
But this B6 copy... GOOOOOOOOOOOOD


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## Hollowway

So what is the attraction to a Chinese BM copy? The looks? As I understand it, the reason everyone likes Blackmachines is that they have superior cuts of wood and really good construction, so they play really well. Obviously you're not going to get that in a Chinese copy. But they will look the same, so I'm assuming that's what it's about?


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## M3CHK1LLA

capoeiraesp said:


> At least it'll be better than an Etherial.



and unlike a brj, you may actually receive a guitar...


good luck with this.


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## Steinmetzify

Screw it man, I for one say thanks. It shows and it's playable and you love it? Throw it in the Poverty Rig thread so we can know. Subbed and good luck!


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## Prophetable

steinmetzify said:


> Screw it man, I for one say thanks. It shows and it's playable and you love it? Throw it in the Poverty Rig thread so we can know. Subbed and good luck!



I'm with you on this one. I feel like there is a real tendency to get snobbish about every little thing in the guitar world. I hope it turns out well and only requires a minimum of touch-up.


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## LocoGringo

Very much looking forward to seeing how this turns out.I always get tempted to do one of these myself,but can't bring myself to pull the trigger on one.I hope it works out well for you and you get a good guitar on the cheap.


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## mortbopet

katsusand said:


> I played that "Chinamachine" guitar.
> That's very heavy...(over 3.5kg I think)
> And heard from owner that had a some very big problem.
> Plugs are suck and very difficult to pull.
> But this B6 copy... GOOOOOOOOOOOOD



I'm pretty much expecting it to be heavy. 
The combination of the wood not being swamp ash - most likely a heavy species of Ash (such as northern ash), with the fact that the body isnt chambered, can only make for a heavy guitar.
As stated earlier in the thread, the filosofy of true blackmachine guitars is to let the wood speak for itself, which in this guitar most definitely won't be the case .
A realistic expectation? I'd say that its going to weigh 3.8kg or more.


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## Deadnightshade

GraemeH said:


> Side-note; I find it amusing that a fake coming from China is called a "fake", but a fake made in 'murica, like Slash's Les Paul, is called a "replica". Food for racist thought.



Knock-offs are meant from the get-go to be cheaper and inferior compared to the original. Replicas are supposed to copy at the best detail possible (if that's the end purpose) and compete quality-wise with the original, most likely with a lower price, but retaining better materials and workmanship than a knockoff. The line is blurred when a knock-off or replica is sold at an original's price and also being advertized as such, something that happens more often when the owner resells -intentionally or not-, close to the original's price. 

Most chinese knockoffs are cheaper due to cheaper materials, labour, and less experience/training for the average worker. The latter seems to change the past years though for overseas factories.





mortbopet said:


> I'm pretty much expecting it to be heavy.
> The combination of the wood not being swamp ash - most likely a heavy species of Ash (such as northern ash), with the fact that the body isnt chambered, can only make for a heavy guitar.
> As stated earlier in the thread, the filosofy of true blackmachine guitars is to let the wood speak for itself, which in this guitar most definitely won't be the case .
> A realistic expectation? I'd say that its going to weigh 3.8kg or more.



If the thickness is close to a blackmachine, don't worry. Dense woods become a problem only when dealing with full-size thickness in my experience.


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## mortbopet

Deadnightshade said:


> if the thickness is close to a blackmachine, don't worry. Dense woods become a problem only when dealing with full-size thickness in my experience.



Hmm...
based on my complete lack of knowledge of Blackmachines, wouldn't this guitar be way thicker than a real blackmachine?


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## Deadnightshade

mortbopet said:


> Hmm...
> based on my complete lack of knowledge of Blackmachines, wouldn't this guitar be way thicker than a real blackmachine?



Well it's not that thin, but it's not a les paul either, so still you'll be fine I believe.


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## wannabguitarist

Lorcan Ward said:


> At that price the labor might not even be legal or even voluntary.



That's pretty metal.


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## psycle_1

Subscribed. Interested to see how this turns out.


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## cubix

Prophetable said:


> I'm with you on this one. I feel like there is a real tendency to get snobbish about every little thing in the guitar world. I hope it turns out well and only requires a minimum of touch-up.



Kinda get what You're saying, but if getting a real deal expensive guitar is "snobbish" than buying a fake is just pretending to be snobbish . Just buy something similiar but not a copy and if You really want that particular one it must be for the "pretend snob" reason then


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## Renkenstein

mortbopet said:


> Hmm...
> based on my complete lack of knowledge of Blackmachines, wouldn't this guitar be way thicker than a real blackmachine?




I believe the OD on a barrel jack is 5/8". So just using that as a reference, that body thickness looks to be right at 1-5/8", which is what the 8 string BM is listed on the specs sheet on the website. It won't be as thin as the B2, B6, or B7, but it's still thinner than your average guitar...

...that is if my guestimation using the barrel jack as a size reference is correct.


***EDIT***

I'm giving advice while I'm at work, so I just had my lady measure my barrel jack recess and it's 3/4"(the threaded barrel is what's 5/8") in diameter. So yeah...that looks like it's a 1-3/4" thick body.


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## VBCheeseGrater

cubix said:


> Kinda get what You're saying, but if getting a real deal expensive guitar is "snobbish" than buying a fake is just pretending to be snobbish . Just buy something similiar but not a copy and if You really want that particular one it must be for the "pretend snob" reason then



I don't see the "pretend snob" deal as a requisite - but surely one could play it that way if they decided to - "hey look at my Blackmachine!!" - yes that guy would be a true wanker.

But if the OP just likes the BM's and wants a cheap/affordable one, more power to him. Even if the guitar turns out to be a wall ornament, not too much risked here.

Good luck OP looking forward to seeing this thing.


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## Prophetable

cubix said:


> Kinda get what You're saying, but if getting a real deal expensive guitar is "snobbish" than buying a fake is just pretending to be snobbish . Just buy something similiar but not a copy and if You really want that particular one it must be for the "pretend snob" reason then



I'm not saying that buying an expensive guitar is snobbish.

I'm saying that the people crying about his curiosity and turning their noses up at a guitar because it's cheap are snobbish.


----------



## Neilzord

Can't wait to see how this turns out! Look forward to the NGD pics and review!


----------



## manu80

so you can have the 6 string version with the blue burl finish? change the chrome parts for black etc? mmmm. I'm thinking...


----------



## mortbopet

manu80 said:


> so you can have the 6 string version with the blue burl finish? change the chrome parts for black etc? mmmm. I'm thinking...



Well that's the plan. I have yet no way of knowing whether or not they are going to follow the instructions!
I'm eagerly awaiting some build pictures, but the seller has no definite answer on when they will be available, other than "ASAP".


----------



## cubix

Prophetable said:


> I'm not saying that buying an expensive guitar is snobbish.
> 
> I'm saying that the people crying about his curiosity and turning their noses up at a guitar because it's cheap are snobbish.



Yes but I still don't think there is an explanation for buying a fake where You have so many guitars to choose from these days. I would understand if it was some specific set of features that You need that this instrument has, but You can't afford it, but that also doesn't explain why You would copy the looks exactly unless You just want to brag and don't want to spend the money. That's actually worse than "turning your nose up at a guitar".


----------



## Prophetable

cubix said:


> Yes but I still don't think there is an explanation for buying a fake where You have so many guitars to choose from these days. I would understand if it was some specific set of features that You need that this instrument has, but You can't afford it, but that also doesn't explain why You would copy the looks exactly unless You just want to brag and don't want to spend the money. That's actually worse than "turning your nose up at a guitar".



Why does wanting a specific aesthetic automatically mean he's trying to brag about it?


----------



## Hollowway

Prophetable said:


> Why does wanting a specific aesthetic automatically mean he's trying to brag about it?



I think what he's saying is that in this case it's all but guaranteed the guitar won't play well (or as well as something you could buy from GC), but it will look like an expensive guitar. Since the fundamental nature of a guitar is to played, it's weird to have low expectations for its performance in that department, but want it to resemble a guitar that is known for playing exceptionally well. Then he's just copying looks for looks sake, and sacrificing quality. That's OK, but it's just not what we would typically think of for priorities in a guitar purchase.


----------



## MaxAidingAres

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duKz8fAr_Pk

Did a little digging and found this youtube video where a guy uses a Chinese blackmachine copy/fake. (30 seconds into the video) he even replied to a comment saying it wasn't too bad but you never know.


----------



## Le Jeff

I'm confused... What's "fake" about a guitar with strings that you can plug in and play? Is it a BM? No. Is it still a guitar? Uh, yeah...

So the dude wants to cop the BM vibe at Squier prices, so what? Will it arrive badly setup and barely playable? Good possibility. Will a trip to a competent tech leave him with a serviceable axe? Chances are good.

Frankly I don't understand why BM is so highly praised in the first place. Doug picks his materials carefully and the builds a super-basic axe which he charges an arm and a leg for. I want some visual representation of my investment when I buy a guitar and no BM is going to give me that. All I'd hear is "you paid how much for that? It doesn't even look finished". At least OP is only paying about as much as a BM looks like it's worth in the first place /joke

YMMV


----------



## Hollowway

Le Jeff said:


> I'm confused... What's "fake" about a guitar with strings that you can plug in and play? Is it a BM? No. Is it still a guitar? Uh, yeah...
> 
> So the dude wants to cop the BM vibe at Squier prices, so what? Will it arrive badly setup and barely playable? Good possibility. Will a trip to a competent tech leave him with a serviceable axe? Chances are good.
> 
> Frankly I don't understand why BM is so highly praised in the first place. Doug picks his materials carefully and the builds a super-basic axe which he charges an arm and a leg for. I want some visual representation of my investment when I buy a guitar and no BM is going to give me that. All I'd hear is "you paid how much for that? It doesn't even look finished". At least OP is only paying about as much as a BM looks like it's worth in the first place /joke
> 
> YMMV



Well, that's just it - the Blackmachine is supposed to be a guitar essentially stripped of all the eye candy, and all the effort in making it is put into good woods and attention to detail so it plays really well. So it's weird to want a copy of it where those things are not paid attention to. Then you end up with a guitar that doesn't have a lot of fancy looks PLUS it doesn't play well.


----------



## Prophetable

The builder's intent has nothing to do with the buyer's motivations. Just because that is why Doug makes his guitars the way he does, and some people buy them, doesn't mean that motivation will hold true for every person.


----------



## fastmerc

One of the biggest things I have heard about the copies, other than using sub standard woods and parts, are that the scale lengths quite often wrong and the bridges out of place. Then the guitar can never be intonated properly.


----------



## Le Jeff

Hollowway said:


> Well, that's just it - the Blackmachine is supposed to be a guitar essentially stripped of all the eye candy, and all the effort in making it is put into good woods and attention to detail so it plays really well. So it's weird to want a copy of it where those things are not paid attention to. Then you end up with a guitar that doesn't have a lot of fancy looks PLUS it doesn't play well.


 I apologize if this seems rude, but I have to correct you. The way a guitar plays and the woods which are selected to construct said guitar have absolutely no correlation. Nor do the construction techniques or the finish have any impact on playability. The combination of nut height and neck relief; level frets and and a proper set bridge mean more to _how_ a guitar plays than anything. Any competent tech can testify to the fact that the difference between the Epiphone he just set up and the BM he changed the strings on comes down to numerous _preferences_ and and the perceived differences in quality between instruments (brands). Yes, the choice woods in the BM will help it achieve a tonal complexity that the Epiphone can only achieve if every planet in our solar system aligned at the moment of it's conception, but who really cares? I rarely stop and whip out the oscilloscope while I'm watching someone jam to determine if what I like about what I'm hearing is in the overtones. I know good music comes from the fingers and, from experience, that having nice gear does nothing to make a crap player good...

So, why are detractors posting in this thread instead of quietly lurking? The man has his guitar commissioned and timber has been cut - there's no turning back. Whether he receives a guitar that's considerably better than expected or something that's only fit for firewood, what's done is done. I, for one, am interested to (yet again) see how one of these semi-custom direct-from-China guitars turns out and I hope the OP only the best luck possible - which means I hope he's _happy_ with the guitar he gets. If he isn't, he paid a few hundred dollars to keep us all entertained for a bit. I, for one, am always so grateful for threads like this that I'll come in and risk being flamed to death to staunch the flaming. If you get your yah-yahs by being a detractor, then detract.

Sorry if this is an incoherent mess. Boxed wine is a bee-otch.

tl:dr?

Aesthetically, a BM has a certain something. If you don't understand why someone could like the style so much that they don't care about the substance then you've obviously never spent a few hours infatuated with a porn star... Most of us rock "mediocre" guitars on the daily because looking at them makes us want to touch them. Yes, I love my HAM90, but my Schecter is just so damn sexy to me.

Peace!


----------



## schwiz

To me, this is no different than ordering a BM style guitar from a small builder. The only difference is that the builder is in China, and not closer to you. It's companies like this that create competition in the market.

If you didn't know, you can message these builders and ask for certain timbers, and they will tell you what they have. Is their quality of macassar ebony any different than the quality of BM's? It could be, but I hardly doubt it will be noticeably different. The biggest difference you get with these guitars vs. a custom shop guitar that you're paying a lot of money for is play-ability. Just like the poster above me stated. These Chinese guitars aren't going to come setup correctly. Some may even have high frets, bowed necks, etc. This is the chance that you take when you order a Chinese guitar over a custom shop. You're also more than likely getting crappier hardware. This is no different from an Agile guitar for the most part. Agile's are built overseas and sent to Rondo with little quality control going into them; Rondo is just the distributor. The only difference is you get name brand hardware.

OP: I'm interested to see what sort of setup you need to perform to get this thing playable. Subbd.


----------



## splinter8451

schwiz said:


> To me, this is no different than ordering a BM style guitar from a small builder. The only difference is that the builder is in China, and not closer to you. It's companies like this that create competition in the market.



This man. Speaks truth. 

Although, we used to see all these kinds of posts in the early Blackmachine copy threads too  it is unavoidable.


----------



## Steinmetzify

MaxAidingAres said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duKz8fAr_Pk
> 
> Did a little digging and found this youtube video where a guy uses a Chinese blackmachine copy/fake. (30 seconds into the video) he even replied to a comment saying it wasn't too bad but you never know.



That guitar is actually for sale in our Classifieds by that same guy, along with his Mercer BM copy. I'd pick it up if it weren't in the UK; been interested in these for a minute.

EDIT: that one is gone but the Mercer is still here.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Le Jeff said:


> Frankly I don't understand why BM is so highly praised in the first place. Doug picks his materials carefully and the builds a super-basic axe which he charges an arm and a leg for.



I've never understood this way of thinking. You don't see why a guitar is good. You can't just look at a picture of a guitar and decide wether its good or not. You have to play it, feel it, hear it, get to know its tone, its attack, how it responds to your playing and technique. 

Thats how you find out how good a guitar is.



Hollowway said:


> I think what he's saying is that in this case it's all but guaranteed the guitar won't play well (or as well as something you could buy from GC), but it will look like an expensive guitar. Since the fundamental nature of a guitar is to played, it's weird to have low expectations for its performance in that department, but want it to resemble a guitar that is known for playing exceptionally well. Then he's just copying looks for looks sake, and sacrificing quality. That's OK, but it's just not what we would typically think of for priorities in a guitar purchase.



You have to a admire this Chinese company for jumping on the Blackmachine bandwagon by offering a cheap interpretation that people will buy knowing it will play like absolute crap.


----------



## jwade

Le Jeff said:


> _*The way a guitar plays and the woods which are selected to construct said guitar have absolutely no correlation. Nor do the construction techniques or the finish have any impact on playability.*_



This is an incredibly inaccurate statement. Probably one of the most inaccurate of all the various ridiculously wrong statements ever made on this forum.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^Its funny that the guitar and luthier he is trying to demean made guys like him eat their words ten years ago when he proved that any many other ridiculous guitar myths wrong.


----------



## electriceye

schwiz said:


> To me, this is no different than ordering a BM style guitar from a small builder. The only difference is that the builder is in China, and not closer to you. It's companies like this that create competition in the market.
> 
> If you didn't know, you can message these builders and ask for certain timbers, and they will tell you what they have. Is their quality of macassar ebony any different than the quality of BM's? It could be, but I hardly doubt it will be noticeably different. The biggest difference you get with these guitars vs. a custom shop guitar that you're paying a lot of money for is play-ability. Just like the poster above me stated. These Chinese guitars aren't going to come setup correctly. Some may even have high frets, bowed necks, etc. This is the chance that you take when you order a Chinese guitar over a custom shop. You're also more than likely getting crappier hardware. This is no different from an Agile guitar for the most part. Agile's are built overseas and sent to Rondo with little quality control going into them; Rondo is just the distributor. The only difference is you get name brand hardware.
> 
> OP: I'm interested to see what sort of setup you need to perform to get this thing playable. Subbd.



See, this is the type of thinking I just don't understand. The correlation of someone who is, for all intents and purposes, a COUNTERFEITER is NOT the same as a small builder somewhere else. The bottom line is that when you pay these arse clowns money, that is one more push for them to continue doing what they do. Now, are they stealing any customers away from BM? I would hope not. But the temptation is there. 

Now, I'm gathering all of my equipment and tools to start building on my own. I have no idea if I'll ever be at the point where I will be able to sell my builds. However, I would never have the balls to make a BM copy or a copy of any other private builder's designs to sell. It's an infringement on someone's work. And, frankly, it's hard enough to survive as a builder. Why would I do something that would, essentially, put my industry (small, independent builders) at risk? 

Honestly, I don't care for the reasons put forth by the OP as to why he did this. No, he never would have purchased a BM because of the price. BM didn't lose a sale from him. That doesn't make it right to buy a direct ripoff from some pirate scumbag, because he just gave the counterfeiter financial incentive to continue what he's doing.


----------



## Tesla

If someone is about to spend a serious amount of money on a BM I can't imagine they'll cheap out on a chinese copy instead, so it's not really hurting the BM business.


----------



## VBCheeseGrater

Lorcan Ward said:


> You have to a admire this Chinese company for jumping on the Blackmachine bandwagon by offering a cheap interpretation that people will buy knowing it will play like absolute crap.



..until you spend $150 on a fret level, finish and setup (or do it yourself). Then it should play perfectly fine. Still won't be a BM and will of course lack the craftmanship / materials, etc...but no reason it can't play well unless the neck is bent or some other crazyness.


----------



## Le Jeff

The ambiguity is incredible.


----------



## slythy

I'm interested in the results, looks like it could be a really cool guitar for not a ton of money


----------



## schwiz

electriceye said:


> See, this is the type of thinking I just don't understand. The correlation of someone who is, for all intents and purposes, a COUNTERFEITER is NOT the same as a small builder somewhere else. The bottom line is that when you pay these arse clowns money, that is one more push for them to continue doing what they do. Now, are they stealing any customers away from BM? I would hope not. But the temptation is there.
> 
> Now, I'm gathering all of my equipment and tools to start building on my own. I have no idea if I'll ever be at the point where I will be able to sell my builds. However, I would never have the balls to make a BM copy or a copy of any other private builder's designs to sell. It's an infringement on someone's work. And, frankly, it's hard enough to survive as a builder. Why would I do something that would, essentially, put my industry (small, independent builders) at risk?
> 
> Honestly, I don't care for the reasons put forth by the OP as to why he did this. No, he never would have purchased a BM because of the price. BM didn't lose a sale from him. That doesn't make it right to buy a direct ripoff from some pirate scumbag, because he just gave the counterfeiter financial incentive to continue what he's doing.



If they put "Blackmachine Style" in their description, would that make it all better? Not going to start a pissing match, as you're entitled to your own opinion, but I'm pretty sure the Chinese aren't the first ones to sell Blackmachine replica's or build guitars that look identical to Blackmachines. But, I get your point. I never said that I'd buy one... just stating that I don't see what the big fuss is about.


----------



## manu80

Anyways. He wants to try it, why debating? I would give it a shot too
. It will be a big debate anyways. like gibson quality, like 300 bucks axes that are good ......and there's a part of personnal appreciation everywhere..
It can't be surely as good as a 2000 dollars guitars, but it can be good/ok too, at least we can have the benefit of a doubt. Not necessarly a piece of shit.
Any news?


----------



## cubix

At least it doesn't have a freakin logo on it. However using anyones intelectual property is just plain wrong and that's the main reason I will never support this. I know what it's like when someone is copying Your work and making a business on Your designs, most of the people who don't care probably never created anything with their own 2 hands let alone have their ideas stolen. It's comming short of someone stealing Your songs, by just changing the lyrics.


----------



## kevdes93

hey gents, thought id pop in here to show my chinamachine.



















for the price? great. just needed set up stuff typical of any new guitar and a fret crown

any questions feel free to ask!


----------



## mortbopet

kevdes93 said:


> hey gents, thought id pop in here to show my chinamachine.
> 
> for the price? great. just needed set up stuff typical of any new guitar and a fret crown
> 
> any questions feel free to ask!



Nice! How's the weight of it? Anything you would recommend me to communicate about with the seller, before my guitar is finished?


----------



## kevdes93

i actually didnt talk with him at all prior to ordering it, it was kind of a blind purchase but it turned out very well. if id known you could get ebony for not much extra i would have though!

keep in mind though, you will 100% need to have it professionally set up and have the frets crowned/leveled/polished but thats something many of us have done to any new guitars anyway

EDIT: heavier than i expected. its most definitely some kind of northern ash as opposed to swamp ash but thats minor, i actually prefer the sound of northern ash


----------



## mag8

kevdes93 said:


> i actually didnt talk with him at all prior to ordering it, it was kind of a blind purchase but it turned out very well. if id known you could get ebony for not much extra i would have though!
> 
> keep in mind though, you will 100% need to have it professionally set up and have the frets crowned/leveled/polished but thats something many of us have done to any new guitars anyway
> 
> EDIT: heavier than i expected. its most definitely some kind of northern ash as opposed to swamp ash but thats minor, i actually prefer the sound of northern ash



I think i speak for many around here, thanks for sharing this "first hand" experience.
Will follow the thread to see how the new buyer likes the one he ordered


----------



## mortbopet

kevdes93 said:


> i actually didnt talk with him at all prior to ordering it, it was kind of a blind purchase but it turned out very well. if id known you could get ebony for not much extra i would have though!
> 
> keep in mind though, you will 100% need to have it professionally set up and have the frets crowned/leveled/polished but thats something many of us have done to any new guitars anyway
> 
> EDIT: heavier than i expected. its most definitely some kind of northern ash as opposed to swamp ash but thats minor, i actually prefer the sound of northern ash




Another question! Seeing as these are most likely built at the same factory, when did you order yours?
It could be good to know if there is some form of consistensy with the builds.


----------



## Renkenstein

From what I've been seeing on these, it's seeming less and less of a copy of an original BM. Sure, the body shape is a copy, but it can be argued that it's as much a copy of an RG as it is a copy of a BM. Headstock, I'll give that...it's a copy, but a copy of what was once a Parker. Back to the body...the 45 degree chamfer is copied from BM, but that's where it ends. The output jack is located in a traditional place, and there's a complete lack of the extra jack cavity and plate that's found on BM. The upper bout's routing is nowhere near a BM. The body doesn't look to be the same thickness either. I'd like to get a confirmation on the thickness of the body from kevdes93. 

I dunno...lots of aspects of these guitars say copy, but it's like building a 59' LP copy like Slash's and nerfing the finer details, so you end up with a copy of a copy of an original. 

In this case, the lack of a logo is key. Had he put logos on there then it'd be outright plagiarism. As it stands, the "fake" nature can be spotted from a mile away and it's not a close enough stab to fool even the layman.


----------



## kevdes93

I ordered mine in early december, got it A few days before xmas. Body is im sure thicker than a real BM however i havent played one so i wouldnt know. Ill take a picture shortly showing the thickness.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Blackmachine sticker, problem solved.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

You've peaked my interest, I'll definitely keep an eye on this thread & see how it turns out. I wonder if they could do one with a Koa top...


----------



## splinter8451

Randy Zhao is about to get bopped with a ton of orders


----------



## Hollowway

The Blackmachine headstock takes a lot from the Parker HS, but it is far from a copy. The HS on these are definitely copies of the BM HS, though.


----------



## Le Jeff

So far none of the ChinaMachines I've seen have had knots in the wood - unlike a recent B6 NGD I saw...

China > Doug/Feline?


----------



## davidgotmilk

kevdes93 said:


> hey gents, thought id pop in here to show my chinamachine.
> 
> for the price? great. just needed set up stuff typical of any new guitar and a fret crown
> 
> any questions feel free to ask!



do you have any sound clips?


----------



## mortbopet

*UPDATE #2:

*Here we go guys, i finally recieved a bunch of processing pictures from the seller!
I also decided to pay 30$ extra for korean made grover tuners. We'll see about the legitimacy of those, but i have another guitar which is made in korea and equipped with grover tuners, so there will be a direct comparison there.
Current price for guitar: 420$
Adding to this, i asked for him to use chrome covered pickups instead of the black ones. 
body:




neck




Rear body





Neck


----------



## GraemeH

The pictures originally showed a 5 piece laminate neck, but that's a one piece? What kind of wood is it, looks wallnut-ey? It looks nice, as long as the strength is there if it's a one piece with an angled headstock.


----------



## mortbopet

GraemeH said:


> The pictures originally showed a 5 piece laminate neck, but that's a one piece? What kind of wood is it, looks wallnut-ey? It looks nice, as long as the strength is there if it's a one piece with an angled headstock.


Well the picture that you are referring to is a 1 piece neck. The black streaks are decals, which are applied to mimic a 5 piece neck with a scarf joint. The wood is maple but stained brown.


----------



## kevdes93

Interesting, mine has a real 3pc mahogany/maple neck


----------



## mortbopet

kevdes93 said:


> Interesting, mine has a real 3pc mahogany/maple neck



Yep. AFAIK i could have chosen that with no upcharge, but i went for the 1pc maple neck.
I did consider asking him if it was possible to get a 5 piece neck, but for some reason didn't.


----------



## kevdes93

its coming along though, cant wait to see it. when i was checking out the site i saw the burl topped b7s but as far as i knew then i couldnt change anything about them so i opted for the "b6". i hated the chrome hardware with a passion

EDIT: looking at the site now they have tons of new stores cranking these things out  when i ordered mine i had like 4 options, b6 b2 b7 b8 all from one store


----------



## mortbopet

kevdes93 said:


> its coming along though, cant wait to see it. when i was checking out the site i saw the burl topped b7s but as far as i knew then i couldnt change anything about them so i opted for the "b6". i hated the chrome hardware with a passion



Well what i've experienced so far, is, that you can match everything thats in the store! this being pickups, hardware, finish, top wood - you name it.
I'm under the impression, that if the required materials are in the factory, they'll do it for you.

That was actually one of the premises i had for doing this guitar. I would only do it, if i could actually get a custom guitar, the way i wanted it.


----------



## kevdes93

nice, i may actually get a second one and customize it a bit now that i know! i want to ask for maybe a baritone scale but i think thats being a bit hopeful haha but its worth asking i guess.


----------



## mortbopet

kevdes93 said:


> nice, i may actually get a second one and customize it a bit now that i know! i want to ask for maybe a baritone scale but i think thats being a bit hopeful haha but its worth asking i guess.



I dont think thats possible. Regarding scale length, i'm pretty sure that they have a 25.5" fret saw that they use for all their guitars.
It's important to remember, that these aren't luthiers that are making these instruments - it's workers who go in, do what they are trained to do, and go home.
That's why the seller shows flexibility within the established procedures of building the instrument. The changes that i've made are basically just changing some materials, but with the same craftmanship involved.
I asked him it was possible to make the neck heel tight - he said that he would try to ask the factory to do it - but i judging from the pictures, its just a standard heel .


----------



## kevdes93

another thing, when it comes in make replacing the bridge one of your top priorities. it really sucks





there arent string holes drilled through the body so i thought of getting a hannes installed maybe.

and heres some comparison in body thickness compared to my iron label 8 string. almost exactly the same thickness.


----------



## mag8

Is the one being built not going to be string through? I thought the original auction was for one, no?


----------



## mortbopet

mag8 said:


> Is the one being built not going to be string through? I thought the original auction was for one, no?



Yep, it's ordered string-through


----------



## mortbopet

kevdes93 said:


> another thing, when it comes in make replacing the bridge one of your top priorities. it really sucks



Whoa, that bridge just looks... wrong (is it the angle of the saddles?).

Is the hole for the strings, and the hole for the saddle intonation screw the same size? Because if so, then i guess i could move the saddle intonation screw to the lower hole (because the strings are routed through body). This would probably give the saddles a more natural angle.


----------



## jwade

It almost looked like the strings are going through what would've normally been the holes for the adjustment screws. That looks really odd/awkward.


----------



## splinter8451

That is the same way the bridges were on the real B6's before they started using the Hannes, you guys don't remember? I always thought it was cool. 

Stealing this pic from Nolly's photobucket:


----------



## Ianus

haha, ti thought the pic above me was a chinese fake and not a real B6...


----------



## jarnozz

that neck looks suprisingly good! lets see how this turns out


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Seen this, I'm not usually a fan of Les Paul styled guitars, but this one brought out the hippie in me  I seriously love it though. If I ever get a guitar from them I'll probably at least get this finish, possibly the same guitar. I've planned on someday owning a Les Paul so this could be it.






Factory Custom Shop Limited Run Historic Orange Lemon Burst Flame Top One Piece Neck LP Standard Electric Guitar Free Shipping-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


----------



## Hollowway

Wow, I'm really surprised how blatant they are about copying other companies' designs. I just checked out their site, and they say flat out "Made in USA" on the headstocks, and have the decals of the companies they are ripping off. I'm surprised the U.S. allows the import of these things. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to bring in pirated music and software, but I guess not for guitars. Or is it illegal if it gets caught in customs?


----------



## crg123

Yea its considered a counterfeit and if you tried to sell it to anyone else on the premise that it was a authentic then it'd be very illegal (The receiving party could sue). If its just for your own uses then I doubt it since its more of a replica in that case. These things get sold to pawn shops and even ebay without detection until they're received by a knowledgeable buyer. If its sold enough the last seller might get screwed because they thought it was real.


----------



## Prophetable

Trying to pass an imitation off as real is a whole different story, for me. That's not acceptable.


----------



## wilch

Interesting thread. I'm mostly curious about how stable the thing is after you get it/after you set it up to your liking. 

e.g. Does it go out of tune to the point where the intonation goes out when the weather changes. Can you make it go out of tune just by squeezing your picking arm down a little on the body, etc etc. Ridiculous stuff like that.


----------



## Hollowway

crg123 said:


> Yea its considered a counterfeit and if you tried to sell it to anyone else on the premise that it was a authentic then it'd be very illegal (The receiving party could sue). If its just for your own uses then I doubt it since its more of a replica in that case. These things get sold to pawn shops and even ebay without detection until they're received by a knowledgeable buyer. If its sold enough the last seller might get screwed because they thought it was real.



So it's a little different than software, right? Back in the day my GF went overseas and got free copies of Windows and Photoshop. We were told that it was illegal to even own them. Maybe because they were actual copies of digital media, rather than physical manifestations of someone's IP. I guess in this case you'd need to sue the manufacturer to prevent them from coming into the country.


----------



## crg123

Ya its a bit different. Intellectual property ala code, or invention or even a simple mechanism is different then replicated a design (this coming from a designer lolol). Think of it as a copy of a van gogh. Its not illegal until they try to sell it as a real one even if every part of it meticulously copied down to the signature and wear.


----------



## Pinhead

I'm totally going to subscribe to this. Ive been looking to get my next guitar and if this turns out semi decent, I'm following your lead.


----------



## mortbopet

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> Seen this, I'm not usually a fan of Les Paul styled guitars, but this one brought out the hippie in me  I seriously love it though. If I ever get a guitar from them I'll probably at least get this finish, possibly the same guitar. I've planned on someday owning a Les Paul so this could be it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Factory Custom Shop Limited Run Historic Orange Lemon Burst Flame Top One Piece Neck LP Standard Electric Guitar Free Shipping-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


Well if you're going to get one of the models that are branded, then I'd suggest you getting a custom headstock logo, custom serial number and removed "made in USA" branding. AFAIK, it's only a small up charge (a bit more wait time though), and it wouldn't be a blatant copy.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

mortbopet said:


> Well if you're going to get one of the models that are branded, then I'd suggest you getting a custom headstock logo, custom serial number and removed "made in USA" branding. AFAIK, it's only a small up charge (a bit more wait time though), and it wouldn't be a blatant copy.


Wow yeah I only really looked at the top of the body, sheesh I can't believe how much they did to the headstock, it makes me sick.


----------



## Neilzord

At least now I can finally afford a Suhr! 

High quality Suhr electric guitar, real photos showing, immediately shipping-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Even though I don't agree with a lot of what this guy's doing, I'm still really interested in that Les Paul copy. It's a finish I've really wanted in a Les Paul for a long time, but have only seen it on $2,000+ Gibsons. If the OP's guitar comes out good, I just might order, but make sure to get all branding removed, & possibly get a satin finish if they allow it.


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

Well, you can Stand on it, so it must be of excellent quality!


----------



## flint757

That outer wrapping they use when shipping things from China is such a pain in the ass to take off.


----------



## kevdes93

dude, unpacking my guitar from them took me about 45 minutes


----------



## mcsalty

> There is need to guitar suitcase hard shell need to add $70



I laughed WAY harder at this than I probably should have


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

Actually found a seller on there that doesn't put fake labeling on his guitars 

Free shipping electric guitar,New arrival Electric GuitarExcellent Quality-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


----------



## mortbopet

*UPDATE #3: *
Today i recieved Pictures of the finished guitars.
But there are some Things that they got wrong (doesn't really suprise me though).

1. As far as i see, they didnt use korean made grover tuners, but instead locking tuners (these are an upcharge as well)
2. It doesn´t look like a bone nut to me
3. Guitar has not been made string-thru-body

for a 420$ guitar? Fine as hell!
Pictures:


----------



## Neilzord

Look forward to seeing the NGD when you receive it and can give it a good looking over and review! 

For a $420 semi Custom It looks not too bad!!!!


----------



## Forkface

wow, that looks pretty good! 

here's hoping it plays as good as it looks, then we're good to go. 
(tell your dealer he might receive a boatload of orders tho )


----------



## manu80

Exactly what i would order. the bottom is really flat !!!SO juste have to see if it plays ok and it doesn't fall apart in a week ! keep us posted please !


----------



## mortbopet

Asked the seller, and he told me that the locking tuners are also korean made. I could get the tuners changed to grover's, but what the heck - i'm sticking with the locking tuners.
Regarding the string-thru-body, the seller told me that they could do it, but if i wanted to upgrade to a better bridge, it would be better to drill the holes to that bridge's specs. guess that seems reasonable.
The seller is going to change the nut to a bone nut before shipping.


----------



## redstone

At least, the builder must be interested in guitars to know the last trends, he might even be a SSO member ^^


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Ask him to ship it without strings. You're just going to take them off the second you go to set up the guitar anyways, so it might save a few tension-related headaches.


----------



## schwiz

Lookin nice! That nut may not be bone, but it definitely doesn't look plastic. May be tusq?


----------



## mortbopet

schwiz said:


> Lookin nice! That nut may not be bone, but it definitely doesn't look plastic. May be tusq?


Well the seller told me that it is a plastic but I've asked him to change it to a bone but.


----------



## mortbopet

I have to admit, i absolutely love those chrome covers in contrast to the finish!


----------



## Sparkplug

after checking that shop out and discovering that mayones replica, I'm definately as much excited as you are. do you have any information on how far they are and when it's going to be shipped?


----------



## GraemeH

mortbopet said:


>



It looks so ....ing good for the money, man.
In fact, it just looks so ....ing good.

Unless the neck comes at a right angle to the body or the wood sounds like it washed up on the beach, I'd say that's worth doing whatever you need to on the hardware front to make it a keeper.


----------



## mortbopet

Sparkplug said:


> after checking that shop out and discovering that mayones replica, I'm definately as much excited as you are. do you have any information on how far they are and when it's going to be shipped?



It's most likely going to be shipped tomorrow (since they need to change the nut first), and then it'll most likely be here within a week or 2.
Those mayones replicas do look tasty, yes - but keep in mind, that the pictures which are currently up are from mayones' own site.
the picture that this guitar has New Factory Custom Shop Maple Fretboard One Piece Neck Through Green Quilted Top Mayones Regius Electric Guitar Free Shipping-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group is actually a picture from an NGD thread on this site.

An example of an actual chinese made mayones replica would be this one 
New brand electric 8 string guitar in blue color-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

but i'm guessing, that since he's advertising it, then he's also going to produce it. But have a chat with him and ask him for pictures of finished guitars, or maby just a picture of the body template. Just something to give you a feel for the end product.


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

How did you get into contact with the seller?
Did you have to sign-up with aliexpress to start the order process?

I dont like flat asses, but the cost is very reasonable.
probably cheaper than building this myself with cheap materials


----------



## mortbopet

RV350ALSCYTHE said:


> How did you get into contact with the seller?
> Did you have to sign-up with aliexpress to start the order process?
> 
> I dont like flat asses, but the cost is very reasonable.
> probably cheaper than building this myself with cheap materials



Yep you have to sign up.
I've written to him about this thread so he could view all the positive and negative feedback, so if you order from him, let him know that you are coming from sevenstring.org... i guess that's atleast a little bit of quality assurance, since he knows that his guitars will be viewed/critiqued by a lot of people.


----------



## Ajb667

mortbopet said:


> Yep you have to sign up.
> I've written to him about this thread so he could view all the positive and negative feedback, so if you order from him, let him know that you are coming from sevenstring.org... i guess that's atleast a little bit of quality assurance, since he knows that his guitars will be viewed/critiqued by a lot of people.



I might have to order once I get some money. That BM looks amazing and even that mayones.


----------



## mortbopet

Just recieved an answer regarding the shipping time.
According to the seller, Europe shipping takes a bit longer than USA shipping, so the expected time is 10-20 days. And add another week to that if it gets snatched in customs (which it probably will).


----------



## splinter8451

If this thing doesn't suck I am ordering one as soon as I finish my taxes  it looks sick man.


----------



## indreku

looks super nice...wish it only came as either 26,5 or 27 inch scale


----------



## Jake

That product for that price damn 

I've never really considered a fakemachine until now


----------



## Tesla

indreku said:


> looks super nice...wish it only came as either 26,5 or 27 inch scale



I wondered that. Especially with the 8 string models that float around the site. If the 8's are 25 inch scale then that's just no good at all...


----------



## androponic

the 8 string Mayones regius replica is 28.4" scale.


----------



## Le Jeff

Looks good, except... That isn't actually a 5-piece neck, is our? I feel like you may have said earlier in the thread but I'm a little buzzed and at dinner right now


----------



## splinter8451

Le Jeff said:


> Looks good, except... That isn't actually a 5-piece neck, is our? I feel like you may have said earlier in the thread but I'm a little buzzed and at dinner right now



He said it is a decal  classic Chinese.

EDIT: Also to the other people in this thread, I have talked to a few of the Chinese builders in the past and a couple said they are able to do baritone scale lengths. But there is no guarantee you will actually get the scale length you want. I wouldn't get too crazy with custom orders. Like people have said, these are not luthiers, just workers.


----------



## Jake

I mean the cost of one of these plus the cost of getting a hannes for it is about my tax return. It's actually kinda tempting.


----------



## Watty

The ass on that thing.....looks way more boxy than a BM, and not in a good way.


----------



## jahosy

splinter8451 said:


> He said it is a decal.



That's the first thing that came to mind  

China December new home prices slip, somber omen for 2014 GDP 



But it's really good for that price.


----------



## Hollowway

Hmm, not to be a kill joy, but I'm actually thinking it doesn't look that good for $402. The staining is weird and doesn't have any depth, and that body shape is really odd. 

I don't know. I feel like $402, plus whatever has to be done to get it to pay well, isn't really a bargain. It looks is ok, but $402 plus upgrades isn't chump change.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Hollowway said:


> Hmm, not to be a kill joy, but I'm actually thinking it doesn't look that good for $402. The staining is weird and doesn't have any depth, and that body shape is really odd.
> 
> I don't know. I feel like $402, plus whatever has to be done to get it to pay well, isn't really a bargain. It looks is ok, but $402 plus upgrades isn't chump change.



Entirely disagree. If I paid $400 for an Ibanez, I'd still have to replace practically everything, as well as do a level, polish, and crown. At least this way, you can get exactly what you want instead of the bland $400 domestic offerings.


----------



## Pikka Bird

^That's not at all what he was getting at. The finish _is_ rather unimpressive (a little milky on the top and HS veneer? Hope it's the lighting), and the Vandy-esque ass looks weird on this body shape.

IF it turns out to be solid then it's fair and well, but not an insane bargain of any sort.


----------



## asher

ThatCanadianGuy said:


> Entirely disagree. If I paid $400 for an Ibanez, I'd still have to replace practically everything, as well as do a level, polish, and crown. At least this way, you can get exactly what you want instead of the bland $400 domestic offerings.



Assuming that a full level, polish, crown, and setup will give you a playable instrument, and it isn't constructed too poorly to salvage.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

asher said:


> Assuming that a full level, polish, crown, and setup will give you a playable instrument, and it isn't constructed too poorly to salvage.



That's the best part! If you don't like the 75:25 risk split, you can spend another thousand and get a guitar that's more likely to not be messed up. You can't completely get rid of the risk, but you can throw money at someone to mitigate it.

Why does everyone feel the need to criticize how other people spend their money? I'm not trying to defend his purchase, but it is how he chose to spend his money, and as I understand it, he has the right to do so.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Pikka Bird said:


> ^That's not at all what he was getting at. The finish _is_ rather unimpressive (a little milky on the top and HS veneer? Hope it's the lighting), and the Vandy-esque ass looks weird on this body shape.
> 
> IF it turns out to be solid then it's fair and well, but not an insane bargain of any sort.



Were you actually expecting perfect fit and finish for $400? My point was that you aren't going to find that on anything domestic within that price point either.


----------



## asher

ThatCanadianGuy said:


> That's the best part! If you don't like the 75:25 risk split, you can spend another thousand and get a guitar that's more likely to not be messed up. You can't completely get rid of the risk, but you can throw money at someone to mitigate it.
> 
> Why does everyone feel the need to criticize how other people spend their money? I'm not trying to defend his purchase, but it is how he chose to spend his money, and as I understand it, he has the right to do so.



I'm not criticizing his choice of spending, I'm saying the risk is much higher than he seems to be accounting for, especially compared to other options


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Exactly how are you assessing his ability to manage risk? It's obviously a risk, but he can't get what he wants at that price point (or any other price shy of $1500 for a marginally better product and a year's wait), so why wouldn't he go this route?


----------



## Pikka Bird

ThatCanadianGuy said:


> Were you actually expecting perfect fit and finish for $400? My point was that you aren't going to find that on anything domestic within that price point either.



Again, that's not what we're saying. Read it again- we're saying that it's not an irresistible deal at all. That kid of money will get you some kind of imported MIC guitar from a known brand, that you can check out before buying. This one is a little more special, but WAY risky and with some pretty crazy shortcuts (painted neck "laminations"?  ) so the thing here is- somebody's saying that this looks absolutely amazing, but it just looks... semi-alright for the price.

Upgrades, adjustments, fret job, etc. aren't part of this assessment, it just flat out looks cheap, which new parts and handiwork won't salvage (unless you refinish it, which is beyond the scope of this project anyways)

TL;DR- Worth the price? Perhaps. Super crazy awesome deal? Definitely not.


----------



## asher

Actually, I should rephrase anyhow, my mistake - was referencing your $400 Ibanez statement.

But Pikka Bird hit it. You more or less KNOW you're getting a functional guitar from Ibanez - and if not, that's what dealer replacements are for.

Neither of those are a luxury you get with a Chinese builder like this.


----------



## GraemeH

asher said:


> Actually, I should rephrase anyhow, my mistake - was referencing your $400 Ibanez statement.
> 
> But Pikka Bird hit it. You more or less KNOW you're getting a functional guitar from Ibanez - and if not, that's what dealer replacements are for.
> 
> Neither of those are a luxury you get with a Chinese builder like this.



People _have_ received replacements for totally unplayable guitars if they provide photographic evidence on arrival, they don't all have zero post-sale involvement.

I believe that the middle-man site itself holds your money and only releases it to the seller once you've received it in described condition, so they have to?

Unfortunately, some dreamers have demanded partial refunds or replacements for minor finish flaws and the like. The sort of thing common sense tells you you just accept in that price range. That's actually driven some sellers to refuse to ship to some countries (USA) because they were getting more post-sale trouble than it was worth.

Also, I'd rather have a really interesting finish on a guitar with some finish flaws, than a flawless flat paint finish, which is your alternative at that price from a big manufacturer.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

GraemeH said:


> People _have_ received replacements for totally unplayable guitars if they provide photographic evidence on arrival, they don't all have zero post-sale involvement.
> 
> I believe that the middle-man site itself holds your money and only releases it to the seller once you've received it in described condition, so they have to?
> 
> Unfortunately, some dreamers have demanded partial refunds or replacements for minor finish flaws and the like. The sort of thing common sense tells you you just accept in that price range. That's actually driven some sellers to refuse to ship to some countries (USA) because they were getting more post-sale trouble than it was worth.
> 
> Also, I'd rather have a really interesting finish on a guitar with some finish flaws, than a flawless flat paint finish, which is your alternative at that price from a big manufacturer.



Thank you for putting it more elegantly than I could've.

It's a pain dealing with these Chinese companies at points, but if there was absolutely no possibility of correcting a guitar you can't play, no one would take the risk. From the conversations I've seen take place between the sellers and customers with broken necks and such, I'd almost rather deal with them than my local big box instrument store. Lol.


----------



## Forrest_H

asher said:


> Actually, I should rephrase anyhow, my mistake - was referencing your $400 Ibanez statement.
> 
> But Pikka Bird hit it. You more or less KNOW you're getting a functional guitar from Ibanez - and if not, that's what dealer replacements are for.
> 
> Neither of those are a luxury you get with a Chinese builder like this.



BUT CHINAMACHINE ASHER



Personally it turned out the way I expected your build to turn out, not bad at all. If it plays nice, score! If not, you served many an SSOer well by taking a plunge most of us thought about taking, but few admitted 

I hope it plays okay!


----------



## splinter8451

Does no one know Aliexpress has buyer protection? If he gets it and it is horrible he ships it back and he is only out on the shipping cost. 

Aliexpress acts as the middle man, the money is in their hands until you say you received the item and are happy. He didn''t just ship his money over to China in the hopes of getting a working guitar 

EDIT: Didn't realize GaemeH beat me to it. Yes the money is in escrow until he gives Aliexpress the greenlight or his 30 day time period ends (which you can easily extend if the seller is messing around not shipping).


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

splinter8451 said:


> Does no one know Aliexpress has buyer protection? If he gets it and it is horrible he ships it back and he is only out on the shipping cost.
> 
> Aliexpress acts as the middle man, the money is in their hands until you say you received the item and are happy. He didn''t just ship his money over to China in the hopes of getting a working guitar
> 
> EDIT: Didn't realize GaemeH beat me to it. Yes the money is in escrow until he gives Aliexpress the greenlight or his 30 day time period ends (which you can easily extend if the seller is messing around not shipping).



I had forgotten about this until it was brought up earlier. The Alibaba group is now bigger than the Walmart corporation. They'll do anything to keep people coming back.


----------



## Hollowway

ThatCanadianGuy said:


> It's a pain dealing with these Chinese companies at points, but if there was absolutely no possibility of correcting a guitar you can't play, no one would take the risk. From the conversations I've seen take place between the sellers and customers with broken necks and such, I'd almost rather deal with them than my local big box instrument store. Lol.



Well, statistically, that's way off base. You're much more likely to get an unplayable guitar from a Chinese fake builder than GC, etc. As I pointed out earlier, there are oodles of threads on the internet about people buying one of these guitars, and coming to the conclusion it can't be made decent without significant further investment. The risk is decidedly huge on these.

I think the real safeguard here is the buyer protection that this middleman offers. If they are able to make it legitimate, then this tips the scale far in the other direction. 

In either case, I was hoping these were cheaper. If I were to take this to my tech and get it to be up to speed, based on other Chinese low end instruments I've played, I may as well get something nicer right out of the gate. I haven't ordered from this site, though, so I'm hoping they've got the QC dialed in a lot better.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Hollowway said:


> Well, statistically, that's way off base. You're much more likely to get an unplayable guitar from a Chinese fake builder than GC, etc. As I pointed out earlier, there are oodles of threads on the internet about people buying one of these guitars, and coming to the conclusion it can't be made decent without significant further investment. The risk is decidedly huge on these.
> 
> I think the real safeguard here is the buyer protection that this middleman offers. If they are able to make it legitimate, then this tips the scale far in the other direction.
> 
> In either case, I was hoping these were cheaper. If I were to take this to my tech and get it to be up to speed, based on other Chinese low end instruments I've played, I may as well get something nicer right out of the gate. I haven't ordered from this site, though, so I'm hoping they've got the QC dialed in a lot better.



Did you actually even read what I posted?


----------



## Haun

Out of curiosity. Where in Denmark do you live? I might want to try out that Chinamachine when it arrives


----------



## Ambit

Do these play well though? Seriously considering ordering one now. I wonder how the intonation holds up. Thats usually the main thing to worry about.


----------



## Ambit

Also, am I mistaken in noticing there are no fret markers on the fret board or neck?


----------



## Ambit

What pickups come in them?


----------



## splinter8451

Ambit said:


> What pickups come in them?



Most likely microphonic pieces of shit  you don't order these expecting a "ready to play" guitar. Look at it as a project. 

That is the usual experience with Chinese copies.


----------



## mortbopet

Ambit said:


> Do these play well though? Seriously considering ordering one now. I wonder how the intonation holds up. Thats usually the main thing to worry about.


We'll know in a few weeks when i recieve it!



Ambit said:


> Also, am I mistaken in noticing there are no fret markers on the fret board or neck?


There should be some side fret markers



Ambit said:


> What pickups come in them?


A lot of these guitars receive discarded epiphone pickups. Still functional, but most likely sounds like crap and are unpottet. 
I asked the guy to use a pair which was wax potter - we'll see about that though...


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

There's the option of...

A- Potting them yourself, or

B- Getting a new set of pickups. I've heard good things from Wilkinson's pickups, as well as good things about Guitar Fetish's, if you'd like to stay budget friendly.


----------



## theo

Somehow missed this thread until now. 
Interested to hear how it goes. For a cheap chinese guitar it looks okay from the pics.


----------



## mortbopet

*Update #4:

*The nut has been changed to bone, and will be shipped today.
Let the waiting game begin!


----------



## GraemeH

I like how there are custom/"botique" guitar builder threads here where people throw thousands at them to do a custom build, it takes a year and a half, they can't get update pictures for months at a time, then it arrives with problems.

Meanwhile in China, the guitars have the same problems, but they cost a fifth and are made in a week with update pictures every day...
This is why the US and UK aren't manufacturing super-powers anymore


----------



## Deadnightshade

GraemeH said:


> I like how there are custom/"botique" guitar builder threads here where people throw thousands at them to do a custom build, it takes a year and a half, they can't get update pictures for months at a time, then it arrives with problems.
> 
> Meanwhile in China, the guitars have the same problems, but they cost a fifth and are made in a week with update pictures every day...
> This is why the US and UK aren't manufacturing super-powers anymore



The custom/boutique guitar builders you're talking about are usually one man to a handful of employees, it's quite different from a chinese factory. They fail to avoid problems and are late to deliver USUALLY not because of lack of experience, knowledge or quality materials, but more so due to getting swamped, or mounting a high horse, thinking that even with apparent flaws, their products are worth the money.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Deadnightshade said:


> The custom/boutique guitar builders you're talking about are usually one man to a handful of employees, it's quite different from a chinese factory. They fail to avoid problems and are late to deliver USUALLY not because of lack of experience, knowledge or quality materials, but more so due to getting swamped, or mounting a high horse, thinking that even with apparent flaws, their products are worth the money.



You're both right. There used to be a passion in the North America and Europe to put out the best product possible. Now the only passion they seem to have is the premium they can get for stamping "Made In" on everything they make.


----------



## vansinn

I've been following this, and have a couple of comments..

Isn't it so that there's often a (maybe even heated) debate against Chinese stuff?
I've only dealt with a few, and not yet with guitars, but always had good contact.
WRT safety on the buy, as mentioned by someone, there's the buyer-protection escrow mechanism, so how bad do things absolutely have to get..

I'll agree that $400 may be a Bit steep for the seemingly medium finish (but hey, so far we haven't seen hi-quality pics) - however, we don't know how it'll flex once in the buyers hands.

As a comparison, you can find comments dating many years back against basses from Wolf Guitars (smaller Korean biz, ocmpared to the larger ones). I've now had my 7-string Wolf bass for a few years, and regard it a fine piece of gear, though not a Conklin (sorry 'bout speleng).


----------



## Tesla

One thing I noticed when browsing was some kit guitars. Some come with Basswood bodies which is fine, but also come with Basswood necks... I've never encountered a Basswood necked guitar so I'm no expert, but I can guess that it's a disaster waiting to happen...right?


----------



## flint757

I assume that would be a disaster considering basswood is probably the softest wood around. I'm going to assume it's a typo (or a disaster waiting to happen ). A lot of the things I read in English off of Chinese websites read like someone just typed it into google translate.


----------



## Tesla

That was what I thought. I was trying to find the listing again but it seems to have disappeared and a new one has taken it's place...with Maple neck this time!


----------



## flint757

So probably a typo then.


----------



## asher

flint757 said:


> A lot of the things I read in English off of Chinese websites read like someone just typed it into google translate.



Someone probably did just that.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

I just emailed the seller for a quote for this guitar with these customizations:







Les Paul labeling on front of headstock removed
Serial Number & "Made in USA" stamping on back of headstock removed
Satin/Matte finish
Back of body & neck to be stained like included picture (it's normally cherry on this model)






Hoping it doesn't cost too much extra, but if it's good I might do a few more things to it, like maybe get those cutaways on the back & neck joint, or a maple fretboard with no inlay


----------



## Deadnightshade

asher said:


> Someone probably did just that.



Oh boy I'll never forget that chinese e-multistore that had some toy balls listed as the literal Greek curse word for testicles


----------



## mortbopet

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> I just emailed the seller for a quote for this guitar with these customizations:
> 
> Les Paul labeling on front of headstock removed
> Serial Number & "Made in USA" stamping on back of headstock removed
> Satin/Matte finish
> Back of body & neck to be stained like included picture (it's normally cherry on this model)
> 
> Hoping it doesn't cost too much extra, but if it's good I might do a few more things to it, like maybe get those cutaways on the back & neck joint, or a maple fretboard with no inlay



Pretty sure you can get your specifications, but i'm almost 100% sure that they wont be able to do the cutaways. You have to remember, there's an established production process, and the guitar must not deviate from that. That's why these aren't custom guitars, but semi-custom/customizable.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

mortbopet said:


> Pretty sure you can get your specifications, but i'm almost 100% sure that they wont be able to do the cutaways. You have to remember, there's an established production process, and the guitar must not deviate from that. That's why these aren't custom guitars, but semi-custom/customizable.



They pretty much send a sheet with specs to the factory. If you ask for pictures, you can pretty much say, "That's not the guitar I asked for," and the rational sellers will have it fixed before they send it.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

mortbopet said:


> Pretty sure you can get your specifications, but i'm almost 100% sure that they wont be able to do the cutaways. You have to remember, there's an established production process, and the guitar must not deviate from that. That's why these aren't custom guitars, but semi-custom/customizable.



The guitar with cutaways in the picture is another les paul from his shop, otherwise I wouldn't have asked him. He actually just got back to me & said it would only be about $20 more for it & a matching flamed maple top on the headstock, so it's going to be about $300 will all of the customizations.


----------



## mortbopet

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> The guitar with cutaways in the picture is another les paul from his shop, otherwise I wouldn't have asked him. He actually just got back to me & said it would only be about $20 more for it & a matching flamed maple top on the headstock, so it's going to be about $300 will all of the customizations.



Ah, perfect then! didn't consider that they had the design in another guitar.
did you also get the maple fretboard in the deal?


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

mortbopet said:


> Ah, perfect then! didn't consider that they had the design in another guitar.
> did you also get the maple fretboard in the deal?



Nah I decided against it, I feel like it would steer too far from the classic LP look. I did get a flamed maple veneer on the headstock that matches the body, so it wont's be so plain with that Les Paul labeling removed. I'm thinking of someday getting a custom headstock decal made with my symbol in my avatar, it's like my label I put on all my music stuff.


----------



## mortbopet

not an update, but got a few more pictures for you guys!
browsed around on aliexpress and found this item:
Top Manufactory Custom Ash Body Natural Wood Blue Burst Burl Blackmachine B7 Special Shape 6. 7. 8 Strings Electric Guitar-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group
recognize it?  it's not even from the same seller! just goes to show how many different sellers use the same factories.


----------



## theo

The only thing that irks me is the flat arse on that guitar haha.


----------



## Renkenstein

theo said:


> The only thing that irks me is the flat arse on that guitar haha.



The flat ass and the tight radius of the upper and lower bouts kinda ruin it for me too.


----------



## theo

Shave some weight off those hips and she'd be just dandy!


----------



## Tesla

I take it those new pictures aren't actually the newest, seeing as it has the plastic nut..?

Looking good though, anticipating the hands on review. Wouldn't mind one myself!


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Renkenstein said:


> The flat ass and the tight radius of the upper and lower bouts kinda ruin it for me too.



It's funny, that's one of the things that makes it aesthetically pleasing for me. Hahah.


----------



## Renkenstein

I actually hate picking on curve transitions and whatnot because they're the individual's art, but they're often the first thing I notice. Hard curve transitions that look out of place and aren't blended make me want to buy every builder set of french curves.

I'm obsessive when it comes to curve transitions though, so much so that I've final shaped entire templates with card scrapers to make sure they all flow.


----------



## theo

ThatCanadianGuy said:


> It's funny, that's one of the things that makes it aesthetically pleasing for me. Hahah.



Taste is subjective!


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

theo said:


> Taste is subjective!



I can understand where Renkenstein is coming from, though. I don't have much of an art or geometry background, but when I started blacksmithing, I could never get any of the grinds just quite right.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Crooked frets anyone?


----------



## Tesla

I can't actually see any...point them out?


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

Tesla said:


> I can't actually see any...point them out?



I can BARELY see what appears to be a very slight fanning on the higher frets 

Could be a bad photographic angle, misaligned neckjoint, or uneven binding causing the visual effect. Kind of looks like the bass side is a little longer.

The strings:frets looks pretty perpendicular near the nut. Near the neck pickup they stop looking perpendicular.

Hopefully they are precisely crooked so intonation is still achievable 
Think of it as a 1/8 Inch fan with a perpendicular nut.

I was considering getting one as a project, but needing a new FB with aligned slots seems a bit much for a ~$400 guitar.


----------



## Edika

Ah but is it the frets or the pickup placement/routing that is crooked?


----------



## mortbopet

from my unscientific analysis of the photo, i'd say that frets 14 and up does seem to have a slight fan.
The bass side of the nut also seems to be a bit longer. But nevertheless, the fret cuts should be placed properly, since they use those biggie fret slot saws that cut everything in one go. So its probably the nut which is at a small angle.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The eBay ad says there is a slight fan from cutting the fret slots incorrectly.


----------



## Tesla

Will it be enough to notice a huge difference?


----------



## Renkenstein

Oh man. Good luck intonating that nightmare.

When OP gets this guitar, go buy a steel rule and measure it up. Since your experiment is aimed at "taking one for the team" and making one of these risky purchases, please be sure to follow through and provide critical measurements. It would be a shame for a bunch of people to jump on orders for guitars that are fundamentally flawed. I'm assuming you were going to do so.


----------



## mortbopet

Renkenstein said:


> Oh man. Good luck intonating that nightmare.
> 
> When OP gets this guitar, go buy a steel rule and measure it up. Since your experiment is aimed at "taking one for the team" and making one of these risky purchases, please be sure to follow through and provide critical measurements. It would be a shame for a bunch of people to jump on orders for guitars that are fundamentally flawed. I'm assuming you were going to do so.



Of course. I aim to do an impartial review of the guitar, no worries there.


----------



## Renkenstein

Good man!


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

i hope you get yours soon. im dying to see your review. im thinking of pulling the trigger on one of these. i cant stop drooling over them. i know a local guy who can do fretwork for me for cheap, so im not so scared.


----------



## mortbopet

METAL_WIZARD said:


> i hope you get yours soon. im dying to see your review. im thinking of pulling the trigger on one of these. i cant stop drooling over them. i know a local guy who can do fretwork for me for cheap, so im not so scared.



i'm pretty excited aswell.

here's a picture of the current tracking information.





As far as i know, tracking via ems is no longer available after the parcel has left china, so the "beijing" information is probably the last tracking information i'm going to get.


----------



## bostjan

Having ordered stuff from China myself a few times, I can tell you that the variability after it leaves Beijing is really something. You might get it within 24 hours, or it might take a few days after it leaves China. The biggest variable seems to be how much time US customs spends with your guitar. Some days they seem keen to just check the box and get the parcel on its way, other times, they want to take everything apart and scan everything with a microscope for traces of drugs.

I think it would be great to post a few fret measurements, and some comments on how poorly/well set up the thing is out of the box, just for curiousity's sake. Unlike other users, though, I don't think you owe us anything on a fundamental basis, but your feedback would be greatly appreciated. 

Good luck!


----------



## Blood Tempest

Subbed for updates. I'm excited about this. Rooting for you that it turns out well. Might be interested in checking out one of these myself in the future. Best of luck!


----------



## Pikka Bird

bostjan said:


> The biggest variable seems to be how much time US customs spends with your guitar. Some days they seem keen to just check the box and get the parcel on its way, other times, they want to take everything apart and scan everything with a microscope for traces of drugs.



He's not going to have to wait for US customs, but Danish customs. It's the same kind of dice roll, though. And how they value the package varies wildly as well. I recently received a set of tuners and a diamond file that they'd estimated at 35 dollars, even though that's probably about a third of their actual purchase price so I only had to pay a little less than 10 bucks tax, lucky me. 

...The fact that they slap a 25 dollar "service fee" on top for punching a few numbers into a calculator is inexcusable, though.


----------



## mortbopet

Pikka Bird said:


> He's not going to have to wait for US customs, but Danish customs. It's the same kind of dice roll, though. And how they value the package varies wildly as well. I recently received a set of tuners and a diamond file that they'd estimated at 35 dollars, even though that's probably about a third of their actual purchase price so I only had to pay a little less than 10 bucks tax, lucky me.
> 
> ...The fact that they slap a 25 dollar "service fee" on top for punching a few numbers into a calculator is inexcusable, though.



(Fingers crossed!)


----------



## Sumsar

Pikka Bird said:


> He's not going to have to wait for US customs, but Danish customs. It's the same kind of dice roll, though. And how they value the package varies wildly as well. I recently received a set of tuners and a diamond file that they'd estimated at 35 dollars, even though that's probably about a third of their actual purchase price so I only had to pay a little less than 10 bucks tax, lucky me.
> 
> ...The fact that they slap a 25 dollar "service fee" on top for punching a few numbers into a calculator is inexcusable, though.



Haha ja det er det danske toldsystem 

Haha yeah thats the danish customs  Also i would be worried about how postdanmark (danish postal service) handles the guitar if it is not sent as "carefull" (forsigtig) or something like that .. they are known to be complete asses about handling other peoples stuff


----------



## VBCheeseGrater

Sumsar said:


> ... they are known to be complete asses about handling other peoples stuff



Apparently this is a universal rule of the trade for people in the mail business. 

"Thou shalt not handle anything at all with care"


----------



## Pikka Bird

VBCheeseGrater said:


> Apparently this is a universal rule of the trade for people in the mail business.
> 
> "Thou shalt not handle anything at all with care"



Yeah, tell me about it... I work for GLS (major European courier service) and it seems I'm the only one who has the sort of experience (and care) that it takes to be able to do the job quickly, efficiently AND still not thrash the parcels completely.

...I can understand how the damage happens, though. It's not because the workers don't give a .... (most of the time), but the bosses are at our heels with a whip, we're somewhat understaffed and the deadlines have tightened, so it's not always possible to be careful for someone who doesn't have the natural flair for _swiftly_ handling semi-heavy boxes and tossing them around gently (yes, there is such a thing).


----------



## Renkenstein

I used to work at UPS as an unloader. It takes a LOT to unload one of those trailers, and care is of no concern to the loaders, unloaders, and dock supervisors. Speed and efficiency are everything. If the wall of boxes fall, policy is to get the eff out of the way, even if there is a box marked Ormsby on top of the stack. 

That's why there's Styrofoam and shipping insurance. Shit can and WILL get busted up.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Renkenstein said:


> I used to work at UPS as an unloader. It takes a LOT to unload one of those trailers, and care is of no concern to the loaders, unloaders, and dock supervisors. Speed and efficiency are everything. If the wall of boxes fall, policy is to get the eff out of the way, even if there is a box marked Ormsby on top of the stack.
> 
> That's why there's Styrofoam and shipping insurance. Shit can and WILL get busted up.



Very true. It's the price to pay when everyone wants their shit yesterday.


----------



## Pikka Bird

Renkenstein said:


> I used to work at UPS as an unloader. It takes a LOT to unload one of those trailers, and care is of no concern to the loaders, unloaders, and dock supervisors. Speed and efficiency are everything. If the wall of boxes fall, policy is to get the eff out of the way, even if there is a box marked Ormsby on top of the stack.
> 
> That's why there's Styrofoam and shipping insurance. Shit can and WILL get busted up.



Yeah, it's the same at GLS, but if you're an old school hard worker like me then it's entirely possible to do it quickly _and_ safely. Of course accidents will happen, but it's very rare when I'm in the trailer. I can say with some confidence that I haven't smashed a parcel in four years, even during peak unloading periods.


----------



## Renkenstein

You're one of the good guys. Thank you.


----------



## Pikka Bird

Renkenstein said:


> You're one of the good guys. Thank you.



I try, but I can't vouch for the next guy to handle the package. There are some real careless jerks working there.


----------



## Le Jeff

Renkenstein said:


> I used to work at UPS as an unloader. It takes a LOT to unload one of those trailers, and care is of no concern to the loaders, unloaders, and dock supervisors. Speed and efficiency are everything. If the wall of boxes fall, policy is to get the eff out of the way, even if there is a box marked Ormsby on top of the stack.
> 
> That's why there's Styrofoam and shipping insurance. Shit can and WILL get busted up.


 Yep. I worked for those clowns for 4 months. It's f***ing disgraceful.

Pic #1: This is the back of my truck most mornings. This pile wouldn't get cleared (there was nowhere else for it to go) so that whole mess would end up falling off the belt platform 3 1/2' onto the floor.

Pic #2: Things stay in place when the truck is this full pretty well. Imagine the chaos when it's half emptied...


----------



## Zado

Joined just in time for the review,lucky me


----------



## Hollowway

What's up with the forearm bevel on that ebony topped one?  I would think that would be just about the easiest part to get right.


----------



## Saku

Here's my custom one


----------



## kevdes93

i dig it! making me want a second one


----------



## mortbopet

Saku said:


> Here's my custom one



Those pictures look like the seller took them. Have you recieved the guitar yet? - and if so, could we get a review of it?


----------



## Ianus

Hey guys, gimme reviews!!!


----------



## Saku

mortbopet said:


> Those pictures look like the seller took them. Have you recieved the guitar yet? - and if so, could we get a review of it?


Yes these pictures taken by seller to confirm the quality.
ok I'll write a review when i received it


----------



## jarnozz

I used to work for the dutch postal service.
It sucked so hard to see a beaten up package in your truck, knowing people payed a good ampunt of money for it. I only delivered them so I got to deal with the angry mob..


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

SHIT JUST GOT REAL. I spoke to the same guy about getting one. Locking tuners, stainless frets, and bone nut still $400. and he quoted me only $30 more for a 7 string. Im doing it Next payday.


----------



## splinter8451

METAL_WIZARD said:


> SHIT JUST GOT REAL. I spoke to the same guy about getting one. Locking tuners, stainless frets, and bone nut still $400. and he quoted me only $30 more for a 7 string. Im doing it Next payday.



I would be a little hesitant about SS frets  I doubt ol' Randy has the tools to do that. But, I look forward to seeing the thread man!


----------



## asher

METAL_WIZARD said:


> SHIT JUST GOT REAL. I spoke to the same guy about getting one. Locking tuners, stainless frets, and bone nut still $400. and he quoted me only $30 more for a 7 string. Im doing it Next payday.



Hopefully the current one comes in before then in case it's shit


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

splinter8451 said:


> I would be a little hesitant about SS frets  I doubt ol' Randy has the tools to do that. But, I look forward to seeing the thread man!



I am not worried. If that is the only issue it has, I got a guy to hook me up with cheap fretwork. But still. Under a grand total for a Blackmachine replica? .... yes


----------



## Hollowway

METAL_WIZARD said:


> I am not worried. If that is the only issue it has, I got a guy to hook me up with cheap fretwork. But still. Under a grand total for a Blackmachine replica? .... yes



Yeah, that's what I don't get - you guys are calling these replicas, but they're not. The whole idea of a blackmachine was that the most important parts of a guitar were done really well, and the unimportant parts were stripped away. So what you had was a flat topped guitar with no contouring or carving, basic electronics, basic body shape, etc. But in this case, the stripped away basic guitar is there, but the stuff that makes a blackmachine significant - high quality woods and excellent craftsmanship - are not. So are you guys just fans of the stripped down look? I guess I'm not seeing the attraction. To me it would be like having a race car that was stripped of the comforts like AC, but could go really fast. And then you get a car made to look like it, but that can't go really fast. To me, $400 for these guitars seems overpriced. But, I guess I'm not the target audience.


----------



## Le Jeff

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that's what I don't get - you guys are calling these replicas, but they're not. The whole idea of a blackmachine was that the most important parts of a guitar were done really well, and the unimportant parts were stripped away. So what you had was a flat topped guitar with no contouring or carving, basic electronics, basic body shape, etc. But in this case, the stripped away basic guitar is there, but the stuff that makes a blackmachine significant - high quality woods and excellent craftsmanship - are not. So are you guys just fans of the stripped down look? I guess I'm not seeing the attraction. To me it would be like having a race car that was stripped of the comforts like AC, but could go really fast. And then you get a car made to look like it, but that can't go really fast. To me, $400 for these guitars seems overpriced. But, I guess I'm not the target audience.


 Yes, this guitar with full binding and a fancy headstock and unique forearm relief is the epitome of "stripped down". Also, $400 for an import version which is lacking in every important way is too much? Is it too much when Ibanez does it? My Indo RG is (basically) a $400 copy of my Jem - so what? You can't say a guitar is only worth how it plays and sounds. So much of what a guitar is comes from how you feel when you see it and go to grab it. Would I buy a BM? F*** no because there's no way it's worth the bill. Would I buy a copy if I could try it first? Maybe... I'd definitely pick it up and give it a rip because, to look at, they're dead sexy.


----------



## mortbopet

Keeping up with the budget mentality of this build, i recieved the replacement pickups today!

The pickups is a calibrated Entwistle HDN set, 60$ for the pair. 
Initially, when i was looking for replacement pickups i was looking at SD's, dimarzios (even bareknuckles), but came to the conclusion, that this is a cheap guitar and practically just an experiment. So i may aswell experiment with the pickups.
The entwistle HDN is a neodymium pickup (these magnets are powerful as f***), and as far as i have read, the general consensus is positive (the amount of people who have written about them is quite low, so i might not have seen the full picture). Some people compare them to the Aftermath - bright and loud.

Plenty of lead on them and they actually seem very well made!

*since it is a given that the included pickups in the guitar are rubbish, i plan on reviewing the guitar with these pickups in it. I dont see a point in reviewing with the original pickups, since any sane person would change them ASAP anyways.*


----------



## mortbopet

double post, sorry.


----------



## JustinG60

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that's what I don't get - you guys are calling these replicas, but they're not. The whole idea of a blackmachine was that the most important parts of a guitar were done really well, and the unimportant parts were stripped away. So what you had was a flat topped guitar with no contouring or carving, basic electronics, basic body shape, etc. But in this case, the stripped away basic guitar is there, but the stuff that makes a blackmachine significant - high quality woods and excellent craftsmanship - are not. So are you guys just fans of the stripped down look? I guess I'm not seeing the attraction. To me it would be like having a race car that was stripped of the comforts like AC, but could go really fast. And then you get a car made to look like it, but that can't go really fast. To me, $400 for these guitars seems overpriced. But, I guess I'm not the target audience.



sooo like a Pontiac Fiero with a Lamborghini body kit?


----------



## JustinG60

i have skimmed through the whole thread. the guitar looks rather worth the $$ paid. i have wanted one for a while to learn how to do work to... fret work really. i don't want to learn on my Paul Reed Smith or my Gibson Les Paul Standard. 

if you search my position on a copy is that, if the quality reflected the price accordingly then there would almost be 0 demand for a chinese copy. notice how i have never seen a Carvin copy haha


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

JustinG60 said:


> sooo like a Pontiac Fiero with a Lamborghini body kit?



The Top Gear Perfect Road Trip 2 had 2 Fieros with Ferrari body kits. And I want one badly lol. But yes I like the basic and natural aesthetic as well as that headstock mainly. Another difference in these to the real deal is the chambering. But this is as close as I will ever get to a real Blackmachine.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

I find the "it's not a real Blackmachine" argument hilarious. Of course it's not. But it's worth much closer to $400 than a B2 or B6 is to $5000.


----------



## GraemeH

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, that's what I don't get - you guys are calling these replicas, but they're not. The whole idea of a blackmachine was that the most important parts of a guitar were done really well, and the unimportant parts were stripped away. So what you had was a flat topped guitar with no contouring or carving, basic electronics, basic body shape, etc. But in this case, the stripped away basic guitar is there, but the stuff that makes a blackmachine significant - high quality woods and excellent craftsmanship - are not. So are you guys just fans of the stripped down look? I guess I'm not seeing the attraction. To me it would be like having a race car that was stripped of the comforts like AC, but could go really fast. And then you get a car made to look like it, but that can't go really fast. To me, $400 for these guitars seems overpriced. But, I guess I'm not the target audience.



So you can get a really cheap, great looking car, to use as a modding platform to make as fast as you want, and end up with something that's not just good looking and fast for a fraction of the cost, but has some of "you" in it so that you can be a bit more proud of it.
As both a car guy and a guitar guy, this sounds pretty great to me!?


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

GraemeH said:


> So you can get a really cheap, great looking car, to use as a modding platform to make as fast as you want, and end up with something that's not just good looking and fast for a fraction of the cost, but has some of "you" in it so that you can be a bit more proud of it.
> As both a car guy and a guitar guy, this sounds pretty great to me!?



But doesn't everyone have the $500k for a brand new Lambo? It's almost not even worth it to argue with these guys, man. Just let them be angry they can't bring themselves to be happy with what they have.


----------



## SilentCartographer

but you can't mod the craftsmanship of the guitar itself.. but for $400 I guess its worth the experiment.


----------



## mortbopet

Just decided to check the tracking again, and guess what!
*It's customs time!
*I checked the tracking number at the danish postal service, and they write "missing import documentation. Contacting recipient." i'll be anxiously awaiting a letter from them any day now. Fingers crossed that they wont value the guitar too much!
pretty impressive that they managed to ship the guitar from somewhere in China to Denmark in only 6 days!


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Customs is where stuff spends the most of its time during these things. It's always a bummer to see shit sitting in customs. Hopefully it's speedy for you, as I've had things sit in customs for well over a month in the past.


----------



## asher

GraemeH said:


> So you can get a really cheap, great looking car, to use as a modding platform to make as fast as you want, and end up with something that's not just good looking and fast for a fraction of the cost, but has some of "you" in it so that you can be a bit more proud of it.
> As both a car guy and a guitar guy, this sounds pretty great to me!?



Except the initial guitar functions as a hard cap on how fast it can go. Not every guitar is made equal, and not all can go "as fast as you want". There are some that are fvcked in a particular way that no amount of work will make them good players, because they need a rebuild.

We're all hoping this is not one of those, but the risk is absolutely there.


----------



## GraemeH

asher said:


> Except the initial guitar functions as a hard cap on how fast it can go. Not every guitar is made equal, and not all can go "as fast as you want". There are some that are fvcked in a particular way that no amount of work will make them good players, because they need a rebuild.
> 
> We're all hoping this is not one of those, but the risk is absolutely there.



I agree that all guitars have a sort of "hard cap" on how good they can be in the fundamental woods, but I don't think you can predict how high or low that cap will be based on country of origin, price, specs etc.
My two best sounding guitars are 40 year old Japanese knock-offs with 5 piece basswood bodies I got for £115 and £22 (bought a second when I realized how good the first was), and they keep my Ibanez Prestige mostly un-played.
One of those was worth sinking >£400 of mods into it was such a good base.

Maybe it'll be a piece of shit out the box with no potential. Maybe it'll be a piece of shit out the box with high potential. Maybe it'll be OK with no more potential.
But an expensive guitar can come out the box with no more potential than it's already reached, whilst a cheap guitar can come out the box with a lower initial quality level, but higher potential than the expensive guitar (if you follow me).
I've learned to just judge each individual guitar individually once it's in my hands, and not on specs, price, country of origin etc.

*All just "in my opinion" and "in my experience" of course*

And I couldn't agree more that everyone should be warned that these can't be expected to be "out-the-box" performers.

mortbopet - I'd actually quite like to hear some sounds demos before and after the pickup swap - just so we can hear what sound characteristics are in the fundamentals of the guitar and what's in the new pickups.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

It's sort of like betting red or black instead of betting on a specific number of a specific color. Yeah you might get an amazing guitar made for pennies out of china, but it's a bigger gamble than buying from the US or something. I'm not talking about dead ugly laminated pieces of wood, I mean snapped truss rods, "s" shaped necks, and broken necks kind of unplayable. You also can't send these back for a refund, unlike guitars made in China sold by shops.

It's a gamble, and it could go either way. Even if one guy gets a great guitar, the next guy buying from the same dude could get shafted. I hope this isn't the case, but it's silly to pretend a guitar made for pennies has anywhere near the quality of something people spent a lot more time and money on.


----------



## mortbopet

GraemeH said:


> mortbopet - I'd actually quite like to hear some sounds demos before and after the pickup swap - just so we can hear what sound characteristics are in the fundamentals of the guitar and what's in the new pickups.



noted, will do!

If anybody has any specifics that they would like to know about in the review, just say it.
I'm writing down all requests and sugestions, and hopefully give you guys all the information i can, when i get the guitar.


----------



## Tesla

mortbopet said:


> noted, will do!
> 
> If anybody has any specifics that they would like to know about in the review, just say it.
> I'm writing down all requests and sugestions, and hopefully give you guys all the information i can, when i get the guitar.



I'd like to know if the bridge is comfortable (when palm-muting etc.) and, as I'm a lamen - what kind of other guitar you'd compare the neck thickness to.


----------



## kevdes93

bridge is pretty uncomfortable mainly due to the saddle screws and the neck on mine is pretty thick.


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

kevdes93 said:


> bridge is pretty uncomfortable mainly due to the saddle screws and the neck on mine is pretty thick.



$45 for a set of Hipshot saddles. And some people like a thicker neck. And if not, use tools. Shave her down. Its ony $400 so I expect to put some ass into it


----------



## kevdes93

i didnt mean to imply that i thought the neck was uncomfortable, i like thicker necks and this one feels pretty good. good call on the saddles, ill look into those


----------



## asher

METAL_WIZARD said:


> $45 for a set of Hipshot saddles. And some people like a thicker neck. And if not, use tools. Shave her down. Its ony $400 so I expect to put some ass into it



The only ass I would expect to put into a $400 Ibby or Jackson is some pickups and maybe a fret job


----------



## Le Jeff

Sometimes I see threads where I don't really understand the OPs motivations and/or reasoning. I like to go into those threads and tell everyone that I just don't understand and I'll try and shove my logic down everybody's throat too. No wait, that's exactly wrong - I just don't post in those threads.

This thread would be 3-4 pages long if it weren't for all the people who don't jive with this kind of thing having to have their two cents. It's kinda sad in a way...


----------



## guidothepimmp

I like hipshot and have 2 guits with the hipshot bridges, but have to admit that with my playing position the sharp end of the saddle always digs into my hand when muting.. not a deal breaker, just something i noted.. point is hipshot is not above these issues


----------



## Demiurge

Le Jeff said:


> Sometimes I see threads where I don't really understand the OPs motivations and/or reasoning. I like to go into those threads and tell everyone that I just don't understand and I'll try and shove my logic down everybody's throat too. No wait, that's exactly wrong - I just don't post in those threads.
> 
> This thread would be 3-4 pages long if it weren't for all the people who don't jive with this kind of thing having to have their two cents. It's kinda sad in a way...



To be fair, I think that people on this board try to look out for one another and that seems to be mostly the intent here. Nobody wants to see an unhappy NGD, but at the same time there are a variety of "bugaboos": the relative-unknown custom builder, the China-built copy, and the deal that seems too good to be true for the money- all of which we have seen people burned-on before. That it is a Blackmachine-style guitar will also get some sort attention, though I think that aspect of the discussion invariably illustrates that BM is probably the worst example when arguing the "false economy" of another guitar.


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

Demiurge said:


> To be fair, I think that people on this board try to look out for one another and that seems to be mostly the intent here. Nobody wants to see an unhappy NGD, but at the same time there are a variety of "bugaboos": the relative-unknown custom builder, the China-built copy, and the deal that seems too good to be true for the money- all of which we have seen people burned-on before. That it is a Blackmachine-style guitar will also get some sort attention, though I think that aspect of the discussion invariably illustrates that BM is probably the worst example when arguing the "false economy" of another guitar.



I can respect that, until it gets to the point of snobbery. Japan was the joke a number of years ago, then Korea, and now China. From what I've seen recently, it seems the biggest joke manufacturing-wise these days is the US.


----------



## darkchoco

Here's the chinese fakemachine of high quality version.

I edited the link because it might be misunderstood as advertisement.


----------



## mortbopet

darkchoco said:


> Here's the chinese fakemachine of high quality version.
> 
> More pics: Sina Visitor System



Judging from the body shape, jack placement & plate and neck (to me, that seems to be a scarf joint), this doesn't seem to be from the same seller or factory as discussed in this thread. Do you have any further information about the manufacturor of this guitar?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Le Jeff said:


> Sometimes I see threads where I don't really understand the OPs motivations and/or reasoning. I like to go into those threads and tell everyone that I just don't understand and I'll try and shove my logic down everybody's throat too. No wait, that's exactly wrong - I just don't post in those threads.
> 
> This thread would be 3-4 pages long if it weren't for all the people who don't jive with this kind of thing having to have their two cents. It's kinda sad in a way...



This thread wouldn't exist at all if nobody gave their two cents, so what's your point? Should we just have a giant ass pat fest as we watch our fellow musicians potentially skipping into a mine field? No thanks. This is also pretending that these places are legit businesses. There's nothing inherently wrong with buying Chinese guitars, but when it's a place that's using shady business practices without the safety of being covered by said company, there's no reason not to warn people that they're sticking their fingers into a bear trap.

The fact remains that if something is potentially dumb, you warn people against it. This thread alone has several people considering putting their hands in the trap. Doesn't really help that I've been personally burned on one of these Chinese things. 300-400 bucks is only "not that much" if you get a playable instrument coming out the other end. If you gain nothing, then 300-400 is no small amount.


----------



## Le Jeff

The very first chunk of words in this thread read: "DISCLAIMER: i am quite confident that alot of you guys probably don't condone buying replica/copy guitars. I too think it's immoral but the fact is that i will never ever be able to afford a true blackmachine. I took this as an adventure - for the good and the bad which comes with it."

Warning the informed is basically pointless. He knows what he's getting himself into. Also seems unlikely that anybody reading this thread who's potentially interested gives a flying f*** about just how fall short of a real BM these ChinaMachines will fall. A BM costs how much? 3-4k? There's no way they're $2600-3600 better. When you buy a BM you're deep into the "diminishing returns" territory and you're basically doing it because you wanna post on forums and show off. It's pretty telling when these uber-expensive guitars get bought and then sold on forums months after their initial purchase to fund something else. Yesterday's "best guitar I've ever played" is tomorrow's ticket to the next must-have axe.


----------



## Hollowway

Le Jeff said:


> The very first chunk of words in this thread read: "DISCLAIMER: i am quite confident that alot of you guys probably don't condone buying replica/copy guitars. I too think it's immoral but the fact is that i will never ever be able to afford a true blackmachine. I took this as an adventure - for the good and the bad which comes with it."
> 
> Warning the informed is basically pointless. He knows what he's getting himself into. Also seems unlikely that anybody reading this thread who's potentially interested gives a flying f*** about just how fall short of a real BM these ChinaMachines will fall. A BM costs how much? 3-4k? There's no way they're $2600-3600 better. When you buy a BM you're deep into the "diminishing returns" territory and you're basically doing it because you wanna post on forums and show off. It's pretty telling when these uber-expensive guitars get bought and then sold on forums months after their initial purchase to fund something else. Yesterday's "best guitar I've ever played" is tomorrow's ticket to the next must-have axe.



Le Jeff, you seriously need to switch to decaf!  No one is attacking you personally, but you're acting like it. If you want to hang out only with people who agree with you 100%, turn off your computer and go sit with your mom.

No one is disputing BMs costing a lot, and no one is claiming that the fakemachine will be the same quality as the BM. The big issue here is whether the $400 will be wasted money. And given that there have been numerous times other people have ordered Chinese fakes and gotten burned, it seems like a legitimate concern.

And call the BM forearm contour "unique" and the HS "fancy" all you want, but Doug still said the Blackmachine is a metal guitar stripped of all of the usual adornments you see on high end guitars. I hardly think a completely flat topped gutiar with a simple roundover bit bevel is a difficult thing to manufacture. To me, the $400 seems high for what you get. And it's not fair to compare your Indo RG to this. Indo RGs are a known quantity with a reputation of a known quality.

I get the comparison of a Lambo body on a Fiero, using the lesser car as a modding platform. But a fair comparison would be to buy a sight-unseen Chinese car, or a Tata or something, and using that as a modding platform. The issue is that Chinese fakes have a reputation of being unmoddable, and unusable. This builder is different, so who knows, but the issue is not whether buying a cheap guitar is worth modding, or whether it is more affordable than the actual thing. It's whether buying this guitar will prove to be a waste of money or not. 

I guess I just don't know why you're being so defensive about anyone discussing this.


----------



## Prophetable

It's not defensive to wonder why the same 3 or 4 people need to reply over and over again negatively in another person's topic about something they're spending their own money on.


----------



## geofreesun

you are right, these two photos are coming from a well-known maker who charges significantly more. he does more than just BM replicas. these replicas usually have quality parts such as hipshot, BKP, sperzel, ivoroid binding etc, all at a cost of course. he builds fantastic guitars actually, i have friends who bought/played guitars from his shop. i don't think he is on aliexpress though, you can certainly find more info on his weibo (chinese twitter)


mortbopet said:


> Judging from the body shape, jack placement & plate and neck (to me, that seems to be a scarf joint), this doesn't seem to be from the same seller or factory as discussed in this thread. Do you have any further information about the manufacturor of this guitar?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Prophetable said:


> It's not defensive to wonder why the same 3 or 4 people need to reply over and over again negatively in another person's topic about something they're spending their own money on.



'Tis how debates and conversation in general works. Person "A" says something, person "B" says information as to why that might not be a good idea. Person "C" comes in and tries to validate the actions of person "A." Person "B" explains why person "C's" reasons are silly. Person "D" gets uppity towards person "B" for sharing concern for some reason.

Those 3 or 4 people (I assume I'm one of them) reply, because they're replied to. Or somebody says something else that can be responded to.

You called it snobbish. I don't see what's so snobbish about recommending to avoid a very realistic risk. If OP gets and enjoys the axe, which I'm rooting for, I would never belittle them. Just as I would never belittle them for rocking out on a first act, or any other budget brand. Hell, most of what I play would be considered trash by a lot of people here. All I'm saying, and have been saying, is that there is a huge unnecessary risk. People have tried justifying with "well, use it as a mod platform." You can't use it as a mod platform if it's ....ing broken, siezed, lost, or whatever else might happen that's out of OP's control. It's too late now, and I'm just as curious as everybody else with how it turns out, but pretending like anyone against the idea is just an elitist cock sucker who's being a dick just to be a dick is insulting and quite frankly way off base.


----------



## Prophetable

Chokey Chicken said:


> 'Tis how debates and conversation in general works.



This is a post showing those of us that are interested a product that he's already decided to buy. It's his time, his money, and his choice. Why does this strike you as a debate?



Chokey Chicken said:


> pretending like anyone against the idea is just an elitist cock sucker who's being a dick just to be a dick is insulting and quite frankly way off base.



I didn't say that being against the idea is what makes you "an elitist cock sucker." I am, however, saying that choosing to come be a turd in someone else's punch bowl to give yourself some sense of righteous gratification might be what makes you one.


----------



## Le Jeff

Hollowway said:


> Le Jeff, you seriously need to switch to decaf!  No one is attacking you personally, but you're acting like it. If you want to hang out only with people who agree with you 100%, turn off your computer and go sit with your mom.
> 
> No one is disputing BMs costing a lot, and no one is claiming that the fakemachine will be the same quality as the BM. The big issue here is whether the $400 will be wasted money. And given that there have been numerous times other people have ordered Chinese fakes and gotten burned, it seems like a legitimate concern.
> 
> And call the BM forearm contour "unique" and the HS "fancy" all you want, but Doug still said the Blackmachine is a metal guitar stripped of all of the usual adornments you see on high end guitars. I hardly think a completely flat topped gutiar with a simple roundover bit bevel is a difficult thing to manufacture. To me, the $400 seems high for what you get. And it's not fair to compare your Indo RG to this. Indo RGs are a known quantity with a reputation of a known quality.
> 
> I get the comparison of a Lambo body on a Fiero, using the lesser car as a modding platform. But a fair comparison would be to buy a sight-unseen Chinese car, or a Tata or something, and using that as a modding platform. The issue is that Chinese fakes have a reputation of being unmoddable, and unusable. This builder is different, so who knows, but the issue is not whether buying a cheap guitar is worth modding, or whether it is more affordable than the actual thing. It's whether buying this guitar will prove to be a waste of money or not.
> 
> I guess I just don't know why you're being so defensive about anyone discussing this.


 I need to switch to decaf because I post on a forum? uh... 

The point is, you guys seem to feel some deep-seated need to continually inform the rest of us that buying Chinese fakes is a bad idea. We got the idea - you don't condone it. Thanks so much, but if you have no interest in the premise of the thread then why keep coming back? I'm defending the idea because $400 may be a lot to you, it isn't to me. I'm not saying I'd wanna just throw it out a window, but buying what's essentially a guitar with the money hardly seems like a waste. You guys seem to think that needing to put new pickups in or having a tech give it a once over is a major deal breaker. All I can think is that I wanna live where you guys do which must be some magical land where $400 guitars from brick & mortar shops are ready to rip from the second the debit pad says "approved". My "known quantity" Indo RG has had all the same work done that OP's ChinaMachine will - so how am I getting the better deal?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Prophetable said:


> This is a post showing those of us that are interested a product that he's already decided to buy. It's his time, his money, and his choice. Why does this strike you as a debate?



Because it stops being just about OP when he puts links and hypes it up long before he even receives a product. It's already got people itching to throw their money at this potential trash pile.





> I didn't say that being against the idea is what makes you "an elitist cock sucker." I am, however, saying that choosing to come be a turd in someone else's punch bowl to give yourself some sense of righteous gratification might be what makes you one.


What righteous gratification? I gain and lose nothing from this. I'm not raining on anyone's parade. OP already said they weren't expecting much. (even if they proceeded to get hyped immediately after.) I mostly have issue with the people trying to say stupid shit like "worst case scenario, it's a mod platform." No, the worst case scenario is that it's a wasted $300-$400+. It's probably in everyone's best interest, including OP's, to wait until he gets the damn thing before they go around hyping it up and getting other people to possibly throw $300+ away.



> I'm defending the idea because $400 may be a lot to you, it isn't to me.



Yeah, but by hyping up a guitar that hasn't even been seen yet gives countless newcomers the impression that it's a good idea. Somebody who saved up $400 over months or whatever then chooses to buy one of these things instead of something they could return if they don't like, is then burned out of $400 that _was_ a lot to them. Just because you have money to throw around doesn't mean every impressionable kid that frequents these forums does.


----------



## Prophetable

Chokey Chicken said:


> Because it stops being just about OP when he puts links and hypes it up long before he even receives a product. It's already got people itching to throw their money at this potential trash pile.





mortbopet said:


> *Expectations:*
> Bordering none.
> I have read both good and bad about these guitars, and since the seller is relatively new and doesn't have any significant feedback, it's a pure gamble.



Good call. That's a lot of hype. Wouldn't want him misinforming everyone.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Prophetable said:


> Good call. That's a lot of hype. Wouldn't want him misinforming everyone.



The biggest problem being is statements like this:



> Thats pretty much my point. I'm ready and prepared to do alot of work on it myself when it arrives. I'd never buy a set neck guitar from one of these sellers, since most of the "horror stories" are based upon set neck guitars where the joint has failed during shipping. There is not nearly as many accounts of broken bolt-on necks.



Neither OP, or anyone else defending them, have really acknowledged that sometimes $400 on new parts/finishing after it arrives won't fix what might be wrong. Most horror stories I've heard involved unfixable twisted necks, destroyed truss rods and the like.

It doesn't help that the OP reads like "you can't chew me out because I already did that for you." Despite what OP is saying, I think their expectations are WAY too high. I also think they should have waited until they got the guitar before sharing the guy's info/a link to their store.

It's all whatever though. I've said my piece, and I've nothing else to add. This particular argument is pointless.

OP, I honestly hope it works out for you. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread because I am in fact dreadfully curious. I'd actually like to request that you shoot a video that demos the guitar once you've gotten it.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Le Jeff said:


> When you buy a BM you're deep into the "diminishing returns" territory and you're basically doing it because you wanna post on forums and show off. It's pretty telling when these uber-expensive guitars get bought and then sold on forums months after their initial purchase to fund something else. Yesterday's "best guitar I've ever played" is tomorrow's ticket to the next must-have axe.



You know some of us buy expensive guitars to actually play because we know every detail will be on point and the only limitation is us the player. You're getting a superior instrument where "diminishing returns" does not apply because you're getting something thats head and shoulders above the majority of hi-end instruments. 

Just because a small couple of people go through their guitars quicker than strings doesn't mean everyone else does. Some of us wouldn't sell our prize guitars even if you offered us 10 times what we originally payed.


----------



## Le Jeff

Chokey Chicken said:


> Yeah, but by hyping up a guitar that hasn't even been seen yet gives countless newcomers the impression that it's a good idea. Somebody who saved up $400 over months or whatever then chooses to buy one of these things instead of something they could return if they don't like, is then burned out of $400 that _was_ a lot to them. Just because you have money to throw around doesn't mean every impressionable kid that frequents these forums does.


 Who's hyping it up? There have been a few testimonials from ChinaMachine owners saying the guitars are "meh" at best. Do you go to your local guitar shop to bash on employees who suggest a HSS Strat as a good beginner's metal guitar? Maybe you spend your time on ebay trolling for ads where it looks like the guitar is being misrepresented then report the seller?

Maybe just face it... The Chinese fakes thing started before this thread and has sucked in lots of willfully ignorant people and will continue to suck in many more. The OP made it pretty plain that these kinds of axes are normally dogs so he doesn't expect anything. What else needs saying? If someone sees this thread and wants to go spending money overseas then so what? Yes, it hurts Doug at BM when his designs get copied, but you aren't going to do anything about that by posting in a thread on the internet.


----------



## Le Jeff

Lorcan Ward said:


> You know some of us buy expensive guitars to actually play because we know every detail will be on point and the only limitation is us the player. You're getting a superior instrument where "diminishing returns" does not apply because you're getting something thats head and shoulders above the majority of hi-end instruments.
> 
> Just because a small couple of people go through their guitars quicker than strings doesn't mean everyone else does. Some of us wouldn't sell our prize guitars even if you offered us 10 times what we originally payed.


 If I offered you $30k for a guitar that cost you $3k you'd hand it over in an instant. You probably shouldn't though, because I've never picked up a single instrument where I couldn't point out at least one flaw. If there's a flaw, then why pay the premium? Doesn't your argument crumble?


----------



## darkchoco

mortbopet said:


> Judging from the body shape, jack placement & plate and neck (to me, that seems to be a scarf joint), this doesn't seem to be from the same seller or factory as discussed in this thread. Do you have any further information about the manufacturor of this guitar?



It's from Chinese handmade guitar company called Motone.

Just like other hand made shop, you can order any guitar of any style you want. 

You can customize your own logo but fake a logo which is registered by others such as Gibson, ESP and Blackmachine is not allowed.


----------



## mortbopet

I've generally had an attidude of letting you guys discuss the subject, and me giving objective information (to the best of my ability). But i wanted to answer to some of these posts.



Chokey Chicken said:


> I also think they should have waited until they got the guitar before sharing the guy's info/a link to their store.


I actually had the intention of _not _sharing the store link until i had published the review. I now see that i _have _shared the link, and apologize for that. I completely agree with you, that people shouldn't consider buying it before they atleast read a review on it. Sadly, i can't control the excitement from some of the guys on here. Reading some of these comments, it actually seems like some people are more excited about me recieving the guitar, than i am.



Chokey Chicken said:


> Because it stops being just about OP when he puts links and hypes it up long before he even receives a product. It's already got people itching to throw their money at this potential trash pile.


This, i can't agree with, though. I wrote the disclaimer as the first thing in this thread and have tried the best that i can do to explain that i know just as little about this guitar as the next guy does. Even though it may have failed, i've tried to be as unbiased as possible, when writing about the guitar - for the sake of keeping the information on a neutral and unbiased basis.
I do not see it as hype, when i'm posting pictures of the guitar (why should any other build thread be more worthy of posting progress pictures, than this thread?). I expect people on this forum to have a healthy sense of skepticism, this being towards chinese made guitars like these or 4000$ custom luthier guitars, and be able to discern pictures from an actual review.

I have been pleasently suprised with the amount of participation in the different discussions in this thread, but it's starting to become a (unnessecary) neverending discussion. I'm pretty sure people have voiced their opinions enough on whether or not a 400$ guitar from china is worth it, and i don't see a reason to keep on debating that. There's no point in trying to convince people who doesn't want to be convinced (this applies to both sides of the discussion).

I will continue to provide the information i have available, but say this:
From now on, lets focus on keeping the discussion towards *the actual product*. And since we know nothing about the actual product yet, there isn't really that much to discuss, until i deliver the review.

Ending comment: I hope that i have made it clear, that i dont consider myself on either side of the argument. I consider myself having the necessary amount of skepticism and distance to this build, to consider any outcome of the process as a positive outcome. No matter what, i will have given other people an insight into process, this being if i recieve a good, mediocre, shitty or broken guitar - the information has still been given, and judging by the views on this thread, alot of people have listened. Is that worth the 400$? it could very well be.
Remember, that we're a community, a big and diverse community with different opinions - and everybody should be allowed to question each others opinions, but ultimately also respect them.


----------



## Count_ChoClitorus

This thread has definitely piqued my curiosity. Thanks for the share. Looking forward to seeing the outcome of this.


----------



## SilentCartographer

still in customs?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

mortbopet said:


> I've generally had an attidude of letting you guys discuss the subject, and me giving objective information (to the best of my ability). But i wanted to answer to some of these posts.
> 
> 
> I actually had the intention of _not _sharing the store link until i had published the review. I now see that i _have _shared the link, and apologize for that. I completely agree with you, that people shouldn't consider buying it before they atleast read a review on it. Sadly, i can't control the excitement from some of the guys on here. Reading some of these comments, it actually seems like some people are more excited about me recieving the guitar, than i am.
> 
> 
> This, i can't agree with, though. I wrote the disclaimer as the first thing in this thread and have tried the best that i can do to explain that i know just as little about this guitar as the next guy does. Even though it may have failed, i've tried to be as unbiased as possible, when writing about the guitar - for the sake of keeping the information on a neutral and unbiased basis.
> I do not see it as hype, when i'm posting pictures of the guitar (why should any other build thread be more worthy of posting progress pictures, than this thread?). I expect people on this forum to have a healthy sense of skepticism, this being towards chinese made guitars like these or 4000$ custom luthier guitars, and be able to discern pictures from an actual review.
> 
> I have been pleasently suprised with the amount of participation in the different discussions in this thread, but it's starting to become a (unnessecary) neverending discussion. I'm pretty sure people have voiced their opinions enough on whether or not a 400$ guitar from china is worth it, and i don't see a reason to keep on debating that. There's no point in trying to convince people who doesn't want to be convinced (this applies to both sides of the discussion).
> 
> I will continue to provide the information i have available, but say this:
> From now on, lets focus on keeping the discussion towards *the actual product*. And since we know nothing about the actual product yet, there isn't really that much to discuss, until i deliver the review.
> 
> Ending comment: I hope that i have made it clear, that i dont consider myself on either side of the argument. I consider myself having the necessary amount of skepticism and distance to this build, to consider any outcome of the process as a positive outcome. No matter what, i will have given other people an insight into process, this being if i recieve a good, mediocre, shitty or broken guitar - the information has still been given, and judging by the views on this thread, alot of people have listened. Is that worth the 400$? it could very well be.
> Remember, that we're a community, a big and diverse community with different opinions - and everybody should be allowed to question each others opinions, but ultimately also respect them.




I couldn't read the second part of your post (I'm at work.) but I'd like to apologize. It had been a while since I was in this thread and mistook you personally for somebody I had been debating with in the past. You have been consistently "I don't condone this" from the get go, and it's my bad for getting too dug in with my stance. 

I do want to still request a video when you get it.


----------



## mortbopet

SilentCartographer said:


> still in customs?



Yep. I recieved the letter about lacking import documentation today, and sent my proof of purchase to them (hopefully they will accept it - i've heard stories about them going on and on about recieving "proper" proof of purchase). When they accept the proof of purchase, they will contact me via. physical mail *facepalm* with a bill that needs to be paid, before the guitar is released. So it'll probably be sometime next week that i'll recieve it. 
I'm going to be paying full tax & duty (around 28.8% of the purchase price + a 25$ import fee), but what the heck, laws are ment to be followed .



Chokey Chicken said:


> I do want to still request a video when you get it.



Video will be coming up!


----------



## SilentCartographer

Meh that's not all bad.. basically another hundo, but stoked to see it when she comes!


----------



## GraemeH

mortbopet said:


> Yep. I recieved the letter about lacking import documentation today, and sent my proof of purchase to them (hopefully they will accept it - i've heard stories about them going on and on about recieving "proper" proof of purchase). When they accept the proof of purchase, they will contact me via. physical mail *facepalm* with a bill that needs to be paid, before the guitar is released. So it'll probably be sometime next week that i'll recieve it.
> I'm going to be paying full tax & duty (around 27% of the purchase price), but what the heck, laws are ment to be followed .
> 
> 
> 
> Video will be coming up!



I'm guessing that's because the seller marked it a low value "gift" to try to get it to you without customs duty, and the customs guy wasn't a total idiot.

Seems like it'd be less hassle to ask the seller to properly mark it as a commercial good and give an accurate value on the shipping documents so avoid this.


----------



## spn_phoenix_92

mortbopet said:


> Yep. I recieved the letter about lacking import documentation today, and sent my proof of purchase to them (hopefully they will accept it - i've heard stories about them going on and on about recieving "proper" proof of purchase). When they accept the proof of purchase, they will contact me via. physical mail *facepalm* with a bill that needs to be paid, before the guitar is released. So it'll probably be sometime next week that i'll recieve it.
> I'm going to be paying full tax & duty (around 28.8% of the purchase price + a 25$ import fee), but what the heck, laws are ment to be followed .
> 
> 
> 
> Video will be coming up!



Would they do this if shipping to the US or is it a Denmark thing? I've actually never heard of stuff like this until now.


----------



## splinter8451

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> Would they do this if shipping to the US or is it a Denmark thing? I've actually never heard of stuff like this until now.



The guitar I got from Aliexpress was marked as $50 for the value... apparently whoever checked the package at customs agreed with the value because I didn't have to pay any taxes or import fees. 

But that is not always the case. I've read other people who have had their guitars held until taxes were paid in the US.


----------



## Thorerges

This might be tangential to the thread, but it is very possible that at some point in the near future, we might begin to see world class chinese luthiers. I know this might seem comical (because the reality of it is that, they are pretty substandard) - but I don't see why a Chinese luthier cannot come to the US/Europe, learn how to build a proper guitar like Ormsby, Daemoness, Mayones, Suhr etc... and then move back to China and begin to build these kind of guitars over there and charge a fraction of the price.


----------



## Demiurge

Thorerges said:


> This might be tangential to the thread, but it is very possible that at some point in the near future, we might begin to see world class chinese luthiers. I know this might seem comical (because the reality of it is that, they are pretty substandard) - but I don't see why a Chinese luthier cannot come to the US/Europe, learn how to build a proper guitar like Ormsby, Daemoness, Mayones, Suhr etc... and then move back to China and begin to build these kind of guitars over there and charge a fraction of the price.



That's definitely plausible. Obviously, there's nothing about the geography or the people to preclude any high-level work coming from there, but the misgivings now are more about the business model. Companies contract with factories there to produce instruments made with cheaper materials & cheaper labor than available domestically and the overall quality is expected to be commensurate, that one gets what they pay for. Of course, if a builder is using top-end materials and the craftsmanship is top-end, then it may not be a huge cost savings.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Thorerges said:


> This might be tangential to the thread, but it is very possible that at some point in the near future, we might begin to see world class chinese luthiers. I know this might seem comical (because the reality of it is that, they are pretty substandard) - but I don't see why a Chinese luthier cannot come to the US/Europe, learn how to build a proper guitar like Ormsby, Daemoness, Mayones, Suhr etc... and then move back to China and begin to build these kind of guitars over there and charge a fraction of the price.



Chinese doesn't instantly mean trashy. It's just that there's a huge market for counterfeit goods at insanely cheap prices, and the Chinese aren't shy about taking advantage of it. There is a stigma surrounding chinese products, but I've played plenty of good Chinese made guitars.


----------



## XxXPete

keep us posted


----------



## Le Jeff

Thorerges said:


> This might be tangential to the thread, but it is very possible that at some point in the near future, we might begin to see world class chinese luthiers. I know this might seem comical (because the reality of it is that, they are pretty substandard) - but I don't see why a Chinese luthier cannot come to the US/Europe, learn how to build a proper guitar like Ormsby, Daemoness, Mayones, Suhr etc... and then move back to China and begin to build these kind of guitars over there and charge a fraction of the price.


----------



## GraemeH

A guitar made by a skilled Chinese luthier with good materials will cost the same from China as it would from any other country. It'd no longer be "a fraction of the price" because it'd no longer be mass produced from cheap materials by semi-skilled workers.
And there's no market for that from China, because people only want things from China if they're cheap.
The best luthiers in China are probably hobbyists.


----------



## Count_ChoClitorus

I ended up messaging the seller and, out of interest, was able to get more images of some of the finished guitars. For those who are interested, thought I'd just share.


----------



## GraemeH

Count_ChoClitorus said:


> [/URL]



If the OP reports that it's built well enough (I don't care about hardware, just that the truss rod works, the neck isn't flaccid and it's bolted to the body properly and the holes aren't stripped), I think I may ask the seller for a bare two piece ash one with a maple fretboard, chuck the spare bridge, tuners, pickups, switch, pots, nut etc. I have lying around on it, and give it a stain...

A wood stain, not a semen stain. Though it _does_ look nice...

I'll just ask them for no logos and to straight up put "Made in China" somewhere on it, and declare the full value on the customs slip. No point messing around when I'm essentially buying two bits of wood and a few screws.

We're waiting on you, Danish customs!


----------



## kevdes93

^ mine is honestly very well built. Truss rod works well, neck was good etc


----------



## XxXPete

photos look nice


----------



## neoclassical

Are these as bad as the Chibson Les Pauls?


----------



## ThatCanadianGuy

neoclassical said:


> Are these as bad as the Chibson Les Pauls?



Apparently even those are steadily improving, but yes, same four or five factories.


----------



## Clinic

This is getting nailbiting!


----------



## Saku

I think The guitar in these pictures are mine 
Top Custom Manufactory One Piece Maple Neck Ash Body Matte Black Blackmachine B2 Special 7 Strings Version Electric Guitar-in Guitar from Sports & Entertainment on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group


----------



## bostjan

spn_phoenix_92 said:


> Would they do this if shipping to the US or is it a Denmark thing? I've actually never heard of stuff like this until now.



Typically, no. The USA has all sorts of funky trade agreements, so you'd have to look up the current tarrif laws, but we do not get hosed nearly as bad as our European counterparts in receiving imports. There is still that chance that something will get mislabeled or misidentified and descend into customs hell, but in my experience with shipping a dozen or so things to Europe [especially Germany], it is pretty much a given that anything shipped to Europe will be confiscated by customs, who will invariably claim the thing is worth big bucks and demand ten or a hundred times the tarrifs that would be fair. As my most extreme example, three $5 cables [why I had to pay $50 to ship $15 worth of cables internationally is another story] were falsely identified as fiber optic sensors, and then appraised by customs at $12kUS each, resulting in a customs bill of $10kUS. This happened years ago and I still have not figured out how to successfully dispute it. I told the recipient that they had to either help me out or just buy their own cables, of which they chose the latter.


----------



## mortbopet

Called the customs service today, and they replied that my provided documentation was valid. So i'll most likely be recieving the bill tomorrow, which means that the guitar will arrive by monday!


----------



## Thorerges

If this turns out ok I'd be half tempted.


----------



## Saku

Totally very good


----------



## mortbopet

I'm going to presume that you've recieved the guitar.
Soo... you can't just post pictures of it, without saying something about it! let's get some info.


----------



## splinter8451

Looks good. Awaiting review, and OPs guitar obviously


----------



## capoeiraesp

At least the neck joint is clean.


----------



## Hollowway

These look pretty good in these photos. I just wish they didn't have such a flat butt. That looks wonky.


----------



## Count_ChoClitorus

Hollowway said:


> These look pretty good in these photos. I just wish they didn't have such a flat butt. That looks wonky.



That's probably the most off-putting aspect for me, as well. I would like to see a completed build of a Mayones clone. Hopefully that could be a little more appealing.


----------



## 1b4n3z

bostjan said:


> Typically, no. The USA has all sorts of funky trade agreements, so you'd have to look up the current tarrif laws, but we do not get hosed nearly as bad as our European counterparts in receiving imports. There is still that chance that something will get mislabeled or misidentified and descend into customs hell, but in my experience with shipping a dozen or so things to Europe [especially Germany], it is pretty much a given that anything shipped to Europe will be confiscated by customs, who will invariably claim the thing is worth big bucks and demand ten or a hundred times the tarrifs that would be fair. As my most extreme example, three $5 cables [why I had to pay $50 to ship $15 worth of cables internationally is another story] were falsely identified as fiber optic sensors, and then appraised by customs at $12kUS each, resulting in a customs bill of $10kUS. This happened years ago and I still have not figured out how to successfully dispute it. I told the recipient that they had to either help me out or just buy their own cables, of which they chose the latter.



That is incredible  Didn't know the Customs customs (?) differ so much within the EU - it is a Customs union first and foremost. Here in Fi Customs procedure goes as follows: 1) I get a tracking number from the shipper, 2) I check when the shipment has crossed the border and landed at the Customs physically (i.e. the same moment), 3) I log in onto the Customs website and declare the item myself, 4) within seconds I get the amount due to Customs (VAT and the tariff itself) and a link to pay it via internet banking service, 5) I pay the amount due, 6) the item is released for delivery. This takes about 5 minutes total  

Now I guess there might certainly be a more strict process regarding goods from, say China, but stuff from the US and Japan have always gone through like breeze

EDIT: And of course it may not work as easily if the item value is suspect - better use the correct value at all times


----------



## mortbopet

1b4n3z said:


> That is incredible  Didn't know the Customs customs (?) differ so much within the EU - it is a Customs union first and foremost. Here in Fi Customs procedure goes as follows: 1) I get a tracking number from the shipper, 2) I check when the shipment has crossed the border and landed at the Customs physically (i.e. the same moment), 3) I log in onto the Customs website and declare the item myself, 4) within seconds I get the amount due to Customs (VAT and the tariff itself) and a link to pay it via internet banking service, 5) I pay the amount due, 6) the item is released for delivery. This takes about 5 minutes total
> 
> Now I guess there might certainly be a more strict process regarding goods from, say China, but stuff from the US and Japan have always gone through like breeze
> 
> EDIT: And of course it may not work as easily if the item value is suspect - better use the correct value at all times


Well this extended procedure is most likely due to the fact that the seller has stated an unreasonably low item value.
The danish postal system has recieved a lot of criticism about being outdated - most of this critique is based on their love affair with physical lettering. All this could have been sorted out about 2 days earlier, if it weren't for the fact that they insist that all messages from them has to be via. physical mail. Extremely frustrating!

customs payed, package is on its way again! total customs payed: 107$ + 25$ processing fee (sigh).
25% VAT and 3.7% duty + 25$ processing fee. Yay europe!


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

mortbopet said:


> customs payed, package is on its way again! total customs payed: 107$ + 25$ processing fee (sigh).
> 25% VAT and 3.7% duty + 25$ processing fee. Yay europe!



wow thats a lot of fees to pay!

you could have had a knockoff mirabella custom ukulele built for that kind of money...


----------



## burl

its shipped by EMS!? hoping everything s fine when u get it with nothing broken or missing.....


----------



## vansinn

mortbopet said:


> The danish postal system has recieved a lot of criticism about being outdated - most of this critique is based on their love affair with physical lettering. All this could have been sorted out about 2 days earlier, if it weren't for the fact that they insist that all messages from them has to be via. physical mail.



Aaaaaand.. everything here is being force-fed-switched to electronics processing. Well, good luck with that.
And go figure why they want it in writing.. Hint: The electronics communications really doesn't carry the same authenticity.



mortbopet said:


> customs payed, package is on its way again! total customs payed: 107$ + 25$ processing fee (sigh).
> 25% VAT and 3.7% duty + 25$ processing fee. Yay europe!



Actually, it's price converted to dkk, + 3.7% import tas, + 25 MOMS (VAT), + 25% on shipping price, + the fixed processing fee.

I usually add ~30% and is happy when it's a Bit less 

My worst story was a box of GreenGlue for sound isolation, where the US seller had labeled the items a bit strange.
So, customs just picked the own high value, and added 7.5% import tax per tube of glue!
Took me 5-6 weeks to get it sorted out and money returned.


----------



## SilentCartographer

agh one more sleep! ..hopefully


----------



## mortbopet

here we go! i recieved the guitar today






As a fair comparison, I have chosen to compare this guitar to my Sterling JP60, Indonesian made guitar, bought for 880$. A midrange guitar, with unbranded (but pretty good) pickups, and sterling branded hardware.


*Initial impression:*
Holy cow, this thing looks good! Visually, its a stunner. Theres a couple of flaws in the finish, but these are only visible in direct light.
Out of the box, it is absolutely unplayable. String action is insanely high, and the strings intonate around 1 whole tone below what they are supposed to, at the 12th fret.





*Build quality (finish, woods, Quality control etc.):*
The finish is pretty good. Its not very flashy because of the satin finish, but it looks pretty cool. There isnt that much depth too it, and I presume a more experienced painter would be able to get more out of the wood. Some minor scratches are present, but nothing that a buff wouldnt remove.
The general wood quality is pretty good, nothing suprising here. I pretty much knew what I was getting when I bought it. The body is a 3 piece, and has some visible glue lines along the bottom of the guitar and near the cutouts. This is my first natural finished guitar, so I dont know if these glue lines are as one would expect, or pretty bad. Doesnt bother me though!





The body shape has been discussed heavily in this thread, but I have to say, that it isnt that bad in person. The thickness of the body is 39mm.
Im pretty pleased with the weight, since I expected it to be much heavier. It weighs in at 3.1 kg, which is fine by me, considering the unchambered body. Weight distribution is pretty much to the body side, but thats a given with the combination of the small headstock and the unchambered body.
At arrival, the neck pocket seemed pretty bad, and as seen in the pictures, and there was about a 2mm between the neck and the body.



When restringing and mounting new pickups, I decided to remount the neck, which made the gap a lot smaller (huh) Another unnerving thing is, that one of the neck screws doesnt drive into the neck (you can keep turning the screw). 




The pickup routings are clean cut, but the locations are a bit off. The neck pickup is routed a bit too much to the right, and the bridge pickup is routed waay too far to the left. Inspect the pictures to see this. This means that the bridge pole pieces are pretty far off from aligning with the strings. 






The binding on the guitar is generally nicely done. There are quite a few discolorations and smudges on the fretboard binding, but it seems that Ill be able to remove these with a bit of cleaning. 
Onto the neck. The neck is about the same thickness as my sterling guitar, but a bit slimmer near the headstock. The fretboard has a nice taper, which I didnt expect, but feels very nice. Im a big fan of slim neck 6 strings, so this is a pleasant surprise. The neck is more straight than my sterling, (the sterling has a small bump around the 15-17th frets). The ebony fretboard could be a little more black in some places, but it has a tight grain and looks pretty good. The nut is cut pretty good, although it could use some sanding on the sides, but Ill be able to do this myself. It is a real bone nut.
Frets. The frets could be rounded more in the ends, but arent exactly sharp, so nothing digs into the fingers when sliding down the fretboard. The frets are in dire need of what I think is a polish. Theres a grinding noise when bending the strings. Surprisingly the frets arent all crooked  there is only 1 dead note on the whole fretboard, which is definitely less than I expected!


*Hardware and action:*
First of all, the bridge. The bridge is pretty bad at palm muting, but it can be done (maybe its just me who needs to get used to it). The bridge should have been placed a few millimeters further away from the pickups, since the low E string cant be intonated properly (its close though, but still a few cents away from perfect intonation). The string-through-behind system, which is currently used, is pretty dumb and makes string changing quite irritating.
Im able to get the action quite low, but not as low as I would like to have it. The guitar would require a fret level for this.
The tuners are pretty good. Locks well, and stays in tune. No further comment on those.
The potentiometers flows smoothly and the switch works fine. 




*Sound and pickups:*



When I looked at the straightness of the neck, something just seemed odd, and that was the neck pickup. 
I later figured out, that they had put so much foam underneath the pickup, that the left screw couldnt even grip the hole In the body.
I didnt get that much change to test out the original pickups, but they actually seemed okay. Both pickups are pottet. The cover on the neck pickup wasnt even soldered onto it, it was just slid onto it, rattling around.
After I had changed the pickups and attached the new strings, an irritating surprise showed  the bridge ground wire isnt attached to the bridge! *sigh*. Currently Im ghettoing it, and running a wire from the pickup ground to the bridge, which basically works.
First of all, I apologize that the original pickups audio clip is in drop D.
The order in the following audio clip is a so:
· sterling bridge drive
· HDN pickups bridge drive

· sterling neck clean
· HDN pickups neck clean
· original pickups neck clean


[SC]https://soundcloud.com/morten-borup-petersen/fakemachine-test[/SC]



The HDN pickups are BRIGHT! I much prefer the sound of my sterling neck pickup, since it has a little bit more warmth, but the bridge HDN is pretty br00tal and great for djenty sounds.



*Overall impression:
*Visually, the guitar is awesome, and Im also very pleased with the fact that I doesnt weigh as much as expected. But I dont feel the guitar as much as I do with my sterling  I think this is because of all the minor errors with the guitar. But the guitar feels more aggressive, which is probably because of the wood and pickups. It needs some work but it is definitely a nice modding platform. 
*Would I buy it again?: *I need more time with it to decide this.
*Would I recommend it to others?: *if you are prepared to work on it, and okay with the fact that the instrument that you receive might have bigger defects, then yes.
*What would I change/have done differently?: *
Asked the seller to not mark the package as a low value gift, but instead as a commercial package with the correct value  to avoid the customs hassle.
Consider buying it unfinished. By doing that, you can get a fairly awesome top, but get an experienced painter to paint it just like you want.


Any questions, feel free to ask


----------



## bostjan

This deserves a NGD thread. 

Hmm, I would say glad to hear it turned out okay, but a few of those issues would irk me too much, particularly the positioning of the bridge. It should be easy enough to get right on a six.


----------



## asher

Those are pretty bad for the glue lines - it doesn't actually look like the wood is fully connected there in that first one in the upper horn pocket.

Also, looks like something's up with the vertical angle on the bridge, like it's either warped or incorrectly machined - not a flat edge. Maybe it's making palm resting weird?

Other than the other scratches and scum spots, it seems like you made out pretty well  Nothing (except maybe the low E intonation) seems remotely fatal here. And it's definitely a nice color!

ed: yes, please give this its own NGD thread.


----------



## UnderTheSign

asher said:


> Those are pretty bad for the glue lines - it doesn't actually look like the wood is fully connected there in that first one in the upper horn pocket.
> 
> Also, looks like something's up with the vertical angle on the bridge, like it's either warped or incorrectly machined - not a flat edge. Maybe it's making palm resting weird?
> 
> Other than the other scratches and scum spots, it seems like you made out pretty well  Nothing (except maybe the low E intonation) seems remotely fatal here. And it's definitely a nice color!
> 
> ed: yes, please give this its own NGD thread.


This pic makes it look like cracks or the joint seperating rather than glue lines.






All in all the guitar might look nice but some of the stuff - poor jointing, pickup routs, neck screws (if it wont go in any further and just turns, it means it has no grip in the wood) etc are stuff I don't see on my $400 Ibanez


----------



## asher

Ick, yeah, you're right. For some reason when I looked at it the first time it just seemed like that one spot.


----------



## SilentCartographer

Not too shabby, although sad to hear not playable just yet.. that always sucks. Happy NGD!


----------



## mortbopet

SilentCartographer said:


> Not too shabby, although sad to hear not playable just yet.. that always sucks. Happy NGD!



Well it is playable now. i've tinkered with the action a bit more, and its nearing the low action on my sterling - so its most definitely playable. The things that irks me the most are the bridge and the 2 high frets that i've identified. 

action:





Regarding the intonation of the low E string - It just struck me, that it's the spring that's limiting the saddle to intonate just right, so at the next string change, i'll cut some windings off the strings, and that should be enough to intonate it properly. 

I think some of the problems with palm muting stems to the fack that the saddle intonation screw drives into the string, and therefore pushes the string upwards, giving it a curve when leaving the saddle. I presume this could be fixed in conjunction with fixing the intonation - I'll shorten the length of the intonation screw and shorten the spring. Pretty simple fix, actually!
Here you can see the curve (ignore the ghetto ground wiring):






crosspost from the NGD thread:

_Maybe i voiced my opinion a little too much too the negative side of things in the review. I have to emphasize, this is a guitar with potential, and i dont think any of us expected that it would be perfect out of the box. There are some structual things about the guitar that makes it a pretty iffy buy, but generally i do think that with proper care and work, it could be a pretty good player. As mentioned - the neck is dead straight and the fretwork is pretty good, and thats two of the things that i was most worried about, since they're pretty hard to fix._


----------



## canuck brian

One thing that is a positive here is that since they haven't drilled thru the back for the strings, you could probably get away with repositioning that bridge for proper intonation or even going all out for a Hipshot install.


----------



## schwiz

Post review, I don't think I would waste my money on a guitar like this. The back of that body is absolutely horrid. Clear, apparent glue lines. Also, that neck pocket worries me, and the fact you can't even tighten one of the screws all the way tells me that they used a crap piece of wood, and/or over tightened the screw. Being that the neck didn't even sit in the pocket all the way, does that mean that you had to overly adjust the truss rod in order for the neck to appear straight? Looks like they also didn't use grain filler on the end grain, which is a bit unattractive. However, this thing looks generally nice, and from what you said, the tuners lock nicely. But to pay $400 for a guitar that needs a fret crown/polish, new bridge, new pickups, and a complete setup, seems like a lot more work than anyone should have to do out of the box.

What's the term that audio engineers use? "You can't polish a turd"? I think this is a clear example. I'm glad you posted this. I'd rather have a used Schecter. (don't take my comments personally, OP).


----------



## canuck brian

Have you had the neck off the guitar? I'm curious to know if the neck's heel is rounded off or something. If the one screw is just turning and turning, you could dowel the hole in the neck, re-drill and re-attach. 

You could definitely whip this guitar into shape though relatively cheap. The only thing that would seriously drive me up the wall would be the pickup cavity routes. The bridge needs to be moved, which isn't too much of a big deal with the lack of ferrule holes thru the back. 

A couple of high frets is a couple of hours work at the worst. 

For reference btw, I had a $3000+ guitar that had neck pocket issues, glue lines, high frets, bridge problems.... etc....it's not just a cheap guitar thing.


----------



## mortbopet

canuck brian said:


> Have you had the neck off the guitar? I'm curious to know if the neck's heel is rounded off or something. If the one screw is just turning and turning, you could dowel the hole in the neck, re-drill and re-attach.
> 
> You could definitely whip this guitar into shape though relatively cheap. The only thing that would seriously drive me up the wall would be the pickup cavity routes. The bridge needs to be moved, which isn't too much of a big deal with the lack of ferrule holes thru the back.
> 
> A couple of high frets is a couple of hours work at the worst.
> 
> For reference btw, I had a $3000+ guitar that had neck pocket issues, glue lines, high frets, bridge problems.... etc....it's not just a cheap guitar thing.



well i plan on doing that exact thing, drilling the stripped screw hole, gluing in a dowel and re-screwing it. I dont see how this is such a huge dealbreaker for people.

Hopefully in the coming weeks ill be able to get time to do a full fret level. but since the guitar is still relatively new, i'm going to let the neck and frets settle for a few weeks before doing any of this - no reason to start working on the frets, if the wood is still adjusting.


----------



## dankarghh

The side dots look like I did them


----------



## DancingCloseToU

dankarghh said:


> The side dots look like I did them



So much this... I literally just inlaid/eyeballed side dots for the first time, and I can't empathize with you more here.


----------



## Renkenstein

dankarghh said:


> The side dots look like I did them





DancingCloseToU said:


> So much this... I literally just inlaid/eyeballed side dots for the first time, and I can't empathize with you more here.



Maybe that was a custom request to make the side dots match the eyes in OP's avatar?

I'm really surprised that this review contained that many positive points. Potential? Meh. A guitar fresh from the factory shouldn't have "potential" it should be dialed in and ready to slay. A gap in the neck pocket? A stripped neck screw? Strings that won't intonate without modifying a spring? Action so high it looks like it's setup for a slide player. These aren't slight issues that can be overlooked. These are critical errors on the most basic fundamental level that even beginner builders get right the first time.

To illustrate, I bought a Schecter C1 Stealth(in my avatar photo) for $300 because it was a blem in the old Musicians Friend clearance center(RIP). The blem was a stripped pickup screw that wouldn't hold the pickup in the ring. 

I'm not trying to kick you in the junk OP, and I sincerely apologize if it comes off that way. This builder is the one that deserves a kick in the junk and should not be given any more business for the sake of guitar players everywhere that may stumble into his snare. I know you were going for the BM look, but for the same amount of money, you could have bought a MUCH better guitar. 

All in all, I hope it works out for you and you're able to correct this clown's mistakes.


----------



## Prophetable

I was hoping for a better result for you but that guitar is rough, man. I hope you update this thread after you get it sorted. I'm curious on the final outcome and what the price tag ends up after you buy supplies and whatever else (including time spent) getting this guy playable.


----------



## superash

Interested in hearing what it sounds like with those pups installed..


----------



## pondman

This was never going to turn out well and the Co building it knew it would be posted on here so if this is the best they can do ...
Thanks to the OP for the honest review.

I've got a couple of Chiba's I got from part job lot deals and they were absolutely abysmal. I fixed both up but it was a lot of work. 
Never again.


----------



## Pinhead

I did what no man should've done and bought one of these recently from the same seller. No matter what I do with the action, the thing has TERRIBLE fret buzz. I think it looks pretty awesome so it pains me to have to say that I'll be sending it back. Thats $80 down the drain just to ship it back to China. I have about 8 more days before it needs to be shipped and tracking info inputted. Would you guys give me any suggestions on what to do about this fret buzz?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Pinhead said:


> Would you guys give me any suggestions on what to do about this fret buzz?



Raise the action sky high
Fret dress, neck shim if needed, new nut if needed
Re-fret
If its a warped fretboard/neck you sand out the bumps and re-fret or a very careful fret dress can solve it.


----------



## pondman

Pinhead said:


> I did what no man should've done and bought one of these recently from the same seller. No matter what I do with the action, the thing has TERRIBLE fret buzz. I think it looks pretty awesome so it pains me to have to say that I'll be sending it back. Thats $80 down the drain just to ship it back to China. I have about 8 more days before it needs to be shipped and tracking info inputted. Would you guys give me any suggestions on what to do about this fret buzz?



Has it got a truss rod ?


----------



## bostjan

Pinhead said:


> I did what no man should've done and bought one of these recently from the same seller. No matter what I do with the action, the thing has TERRIBLE fret buzz. I think it looks pretty awesome so it pains me to have to say that I'll be sending it back. Thats $80 down the drain just to ship it back to China. I have about 8 more days before it needs to be shipped and tracking info inputted. Would you guys give me any suggestions on what to do about this fret buzz?



Not to be a jerk, but there are ton's of threads posted here that read just like what you posted.

For one, the guitar that resulted from this thread, to me, seemed like a complete disaster. Based on that, I say send it back. Even if you somehow fix one of the issues, there seems to be a liklihood of a hundred more issues beneath that.

Otherwise, in general, to alieviate fret buzz, it depends on what is wrong. I've seen threads on this site where someone asked for help, but didn't give any more details than you did, and it ended up being a broken truss rod and not fret buzz.

Your options, in order of how recommended they are:

1. Send it back. $80 lesson learned.
2. Are you sure you don't want to send it back?
3. Please reconsider sending it back.
4. Ok, fine, you won't send it back, at least take it to a qualified tech. He can hold it and look at it and feel it and measure it and know what exactly needs to be done in two minutes flat.
5. If you made it this far on the list without a solution, reconsider sending it back.
6. Hmm, still reading. Well, at least give some specific details on what is wrong.


----------



## Tesla

bostjan said:


> Not to be a jerk


----------



## Pinhead

> Raise the action sky high
> Fret dress, neck shim if needed, new nut if needed
> Re-fret
> If its a warped fretboard/neck you sand out the bumps and re-fret or a very careful fret dress can solve it.



I considered these things but seeing as it only has about 4 more days left of buyer's protection (return period), I just dont have the time or tools to get all that done. If I went to the effort of doing all that and it still wasnt fixed then I'd be eating a $400 hard lesson instead of the $80 return cost lesson.



> Has it got a truss rod ?



Yes, it has a truss rod.



> Your options, in order of how recommended they are:
> 
> 1. Send it back. $80 lesson learned.



I made it to #1 on your list and stopped. I'm shipping it back. Better to just lose out on the shipping cost than to have a $400 chunk of wood that doesnt get used. It is pretty though, I have to admit. I'll upload pictures of it if anyone is interested. Thanks for the suggestions people.


----------



## mag8

I just noticed this one:
Blackmachine Style aus Sammlung Tausch ESP Jackson Ibanez Peavey in Brandenburg - Cottbus | Musikinstrumente und Zubehör gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen

not implying that it's the same guitar as this thread, but it looks very similar (it could be one if its twins)


----------



## SilentCartographer

mag8 said:


> I just noticed this one:
> Blackmachine Style aus Sammlung Tausch ESP Jackson Ibanez Peavey in Brandenburg - Cottbus | Musikinstrumente und Zubehör gebraucht kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen
> 
> not implying that it's the same guitar as this thread, but it looks very similar (it could be one if its twins)



700 Euro, HA!, nope.


----------



## Hollowway

Ugh, these things again! 

At the risk of stirring the devil's advocates, I will say that I am posting here, once again, to tell anyone thinking they will order one of these and get a guitar worth what they pay for it: Don't do it! You can get loads of much better, much more "sure thing" and definitely less risky from elsewhere.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Hollowway said:


> Don't do it! You can get loads of much better, much more "sure thing" and definitely less risky from elsewhere.



"Thanks for the advise, I'm going to ignore it, buy one anyway and then get annoyed when I get an unplayable plank."


----------



## Fraz666

One week ago I got my first 'chinese replica' and I'm satisfied:
The guitar is the ESP White Explorer MX250 "Papa Het", 228,84 + 25,01 taxes.

Arrived unplayable, after the set up (truss rod, action, buzz) is playable like a 'normal' guitar.
The pickups are crap but not as much I expected, I had hours of fun.

years ago I bought a 'original' chinese Epiphone Les Paul Standard for 440, and I don't see a big difference in playability or sound; the pickups were also crap and I changed them.

my point is: 
I overpayed che 'fake' for 250 or the original one built probably in the same factory by the same workers for 440?
I guess and I feel the second one.


----------



## marcwormjim

Good for you. Even though you're italian, be prepared for a bunch of yanks screaming about US copyright infringement and how it's "not the real thing", despite it clearly not being a factor in your appreciation of the instrument.

Would you mind sharing the Alibaba/express store name? At the very least, this community can be good for promoting the good builders over the bad ones, regardless of the originality of their "designs."


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## Chokey Chicken

marcwormjim said:


> Good for you. Even though you're italian, be prepared for a bunch of yanks screaming about US copyright infringement and how it's "not the real thing", despite it clearly not being a factor in your appreciation of the instrument.
> 
> Would you mind sharing the Alibaba/express store name? At the very least, this community can be good for promoting the good builders over the bad ones, regardless of the originality of their "designs."



Counterfeiting aside, there's literally no quality control on the fake ones. You can get ten and they'd all be unplayable, then buy an eleventh and it'd be well enough. With the Epiphone, if it's even slightly iffy, you can bring it back to the store for a full refund. 

I played exclusively dirt cheap beater axes up until like one or two years ago. I've played hundreds of cheap epi's, LTD's, Ibbies, Schecters, etc. and I've never felt the need to return one due to quality issues. (I still own my Omen 8 which is of superb quality.)

tl;dr Yeah, you might get an okay guitar from one of these crummy builders, but you're way more likely to get a useless turd. You're better off buying the less-of-a-hassle Chinese Epiphone that's covered under warranty.


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## marcwormjim

You could say that about any independent builder, and I'm pretty sure the buyers here understand those risks.

I fixed your post for you:



Chokey Chicken said:


> Counterfeiting aside, there's literally no quality control on independent builders, such as Strictly 7 Guitars. You can get ten and they'd all be unplayable, then buy an eleventh and it'd be well enough. With the Epiphone, if it's even slightly iffy, you can bring it back to the store for a full refund.
> 
> I played exclusively dirt cheap beater axes up until like one or two years ago. I've played hundreds of cheap epi's, LTD's, Ibbies, Schecters, etc. and I've never felt the need to return one due to quality issues. (I still own my Omen 8 which is of superb quality.)
> 
> tl;dr Yeah, you might get an okay guitar from one of these crummy builders - Such as Strictly 7 Guitars, but you're way more likely to get a useless turd. You're better off buying the less-of-a-hassle Chinese Epiphone that's covered under warranty.


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## Chokey Chicken

marcwormjim said:


> You could say that about any independent builder, and I'm pretty sure the buyers here understand those risks.
> 
> I fixed your post for you:




So are you saying that despite the fact that S7G released 99% crap that you'd still order one, or recommend someone order one, because a few of them came out good and it's worth taking the risk?

Sometimes you really do get burned out of money and it's not your fault. BRJ, for example, made quality instruments before he fell apart. But we're not talking about "notoriously good quality" here. We're talking about cheap un-QC'd junk that has a track record for being garbage. I'm all for cheap knock-offs, but I won't recommend sellers who are known to give bent, poorly glued, microphonic piles of .... just because one or two out of a thousand turned out "okay."


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## mcsalty

Wait, are we seriously using S7G as the representative for all independent builders? If you want to argue in favour of counterfeit Chinese-built guitars, by all means go for it, but at least do it convincingly. Comparing independent luthiers to Chinese counterfeits does not make your point, especially when your example of "any independent builder" is Strictly 7.


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## marcwormjim

What a mess. Here's how it goes on this site:

If someone, knowing the risks, buys a chibson and it sucks, then ss.org will call him stupid for wasting the money.

If someone, knowing the risks, buys a chibson and they like it, then ss.org will call him stupid for taking the risk.

The Italian poster bought a chinese counterfeit of an american guitar, and liked it. I'm aware that that's sacrilege on this board, so I posted a positive response amounting to "good for you", acknowledging that someone was going to see his post and be compelled to post their moral objection.

The argument that a chibson is risky because it lacks a corporate entity's customer-satisfaction policies applies to all non-corporate entities. I used S7G as an example of how any independent builder can be as bad or worse than a chibson-seller, if they simply feel like it. 

No matter what words are put in my mouth, I'm happy for our Italian poster, and am still curious to see what else the builder of his guitar offers. Nearly every luthier's first build is a copy. If this guy can build an explorer, then he can build a guitar with a politically-correct shape. if he's actually skilled, then maybe he can get on with a "legitimate" factory or sell his own designs. I understand if it's more lucrative for him to remain a counterfeiter, but I'm still curious to see.


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## asher

I'm not sure that A) you actually read the thread, and B) that you're here for anything but troll bait.


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## Fraz666

Chokey Chicken said:


> Counterfeiting aside, there's literally no quality control on the fake ones. You can get ten and they'd all be unplayable, then buy an eleventh and it'd be well enough. With the Epiphone, if it's even slightly iffy, you can bring it back to the store for a full refund.


this.
I hope no one here think that cheap guitars (original or fake) and are made &#8203;&#8203;by the hands of Oompa Loompa, in most cases are made in the same factory by the same machines (like much else in the world: electronics , cars , etc. ).
the real difference is the quality control, and is different for each brand.

I do not think I was lucky with this one, I think for a CNC machine a white explorer shape is easier to build and paint than a PRS or a Mayones (for example) so the chances to have a right one are bigger.



marcwormjim said:


> Good for you. Even though you're italian, be prepared for a bunch of yanks screaming about US copyright infringement and how it's "not the real thing", despite it clearly not being a factor in your appreciation of the instrument.


I know, but I think that this situation has a big difference: the ESP "Papa Het" doesn't exist. It is not a fake edition of a guitar sold by ESP, so until I stole the original one from Hetfield's house it can only be a 'replica', not a 'fake'.

fun fact? like the AFD Slash Les Paul (as said before in this thread) also the first Hetfield's white flying V wasn't a real Gibson but a japanese replica... 



> Would you mind sharing the Alibaba/express store name?


Sky Music Store


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## Tesla

Hey, if you're happy, good for you.


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## Chokey Chicken

marcwormjim said:


> What a mess. Here's how it goes on this site:
> 
> If someone, knowing the risks, buys a chibson and it sucks, then ss.org will call him stupid for wasting the money.
> 
> If someone, knowing the risks, buys a chibson and they like it, then ss.org will call him stupid for taking the risk.
> 
> The Italian poster bought a chinese counterfeit of an american guitar, and liked it. I'm aware that that's sacrilege on this board, so I posted a positive response amounting to "good for you", acknowledging that someone was going to see his post and be compelled to post their moral objection.
> 
> The argument that a chibson is risky because it lacks a corporate entity's customer-satisfaction policies applies to all non-corporate entities. I used S7G as an example of how any independent builder can be as bad or worse than a chibson-seller, if they simply feel like it.
> 
> No matter what words are put in my mouth, I'm happy for our Italian poster, and am still curious to see what else the builder of his guitar offers. Nearly every luthier's first build is a copy. If this guy can build an explorer, then he can build a guitar with a politically-correct shape. if he's actually skilled, then maybe he can get on with a "legitimate" factory or sell his own designs. I understand if it's more lucrative for him to remain a counterfeiter, but I'm still curious to see.



I've known a chibson or two to be decent enough. I never knocked on anyone for enjoying a guitar out of a .... factory. I will not, however, recommend anyone take the risk because you're more than likely to get burned. Same with s7g. Some people got guitars they really liked from them. I'm happy about that, but I'd never recommend anyone buy an s7g. 

Its laughable because, if I recall correctly, you asked about the seller as you wanted to buy one too. As if the seller makes that much of a difference, failing to take into account that that guy might have gotten the one "good" one out of 1000 planks. Despite the fact that 2 guitars, at least, in this thread were crap. Neglecting to acknowledge that maybe Italian dude was just being a contrarian who likes the idea of cheap knock offs but never actually bought one and used fake anecdotal evidence to state "I don't know what the hundreds of people who got burned are talking about, I played one good one so that means they're good enough to recommend."

The short of it is, its cool if your cheap counterfeit melts faces. I'm happy if people can find an instrument that speaks to them, regardless of price point. I can not in good faith ever recommend someone buy one of these things for the simple fact that I've seen more people get burned than enjoy their guitars. This is also not mentioning the fact that some ass holes do sell counterfeits as real, burning hard working people out of large sums of money.


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## marcwormjim

Chokey Chicken said:


> Its laughable because, if I recall correctly, you asked about the seller as you wanted to buy one too.



You've got quite the imagination.


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## Electric Wizard

marcwormjim said:


> What a mess. Here's how it goes on this site:
> 
> If someone, knowing the risks, buys a chibson and it sucks, then ss.org will call him stupid for wasting the money.
> 
> If someone, knowing the risks, buys a chibson and they like it, then ss.org will call him stupid for taking the risk.
> 
> etc...


Seeing as how you've only joined this year, maybe you're lacking the perspective that many on this site have. Forgive me if you're aware, I'm not trying to talk down.

Brands once popular on SSO that numerous people have been shafted by:
BRJ
Vik
Roter
Emperion
S7G
Sims
Invictus
Sherman
Acacia


Arguable (sub-par or still awaiting orders):
Sabre
Astral
Decibel(?)
ProTone
Etherial

I think I'm forgetting a few. Anyways, the point is that people here have been bitten before and try to keep it from happening to anyone else. It has nothing to do with "political correctness" or nationalism or whatever other way you're spinning it. People are coming from a good place when they advise caution.


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## Chokey Chicken

marcwormjim said:


> Would you mind sharing the Alibaba/express store name? At the very least, this community can be good for promoting the good builders over the bad ones, regardless of the originality of their "designs."



My imagination wasn't that wild, since you did ask for a sellers name to help promote them. But whatevs.


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## A-Branger

I almost got a china guitar once. Thing with those is as all of you say, they are not a fully layable great guitar, non a re-placement or re-plicas.

As I was seeing them, they are project guitars. They are not gonna come setup, most of the hardware would have to be re-placed. Pups for sure, tuners and bride if you are lucky. My plan was to put EMGs so I was fully covered on the electronics with the new pups.

in a way they are like a BYO guitar kits. but mostly done, fully assembled. kinda

China ones are prob more famous to do les pauls, PRS (cut more similar to SEs) and other popular guitars. A BM guitar is not usual for them, so the more un-usual shape, the most problems you might get. Try to see JPs re-plicas, they are awful.

a great source of info about China guitars, can be found here China Guitar Sceptic | China Guitar Sceptic - Reviews and Advice on all things Guitar from China and Chinese
join the forum, heaps of info on who are the current best buyers. What to do, what not to do, how to identify problems from the start, etc etc. plus ppl doing their own NGD and un-boxing

Ali express is full of re-sellers. Ideally you need to find a factory, not a re-seller. So they give you pointers there on how to spot the good from the bad.


My guitar was going to be with a no brand, or custom logo. In fact that forum encourages you to do so. Im not buying a fake, I was trying to buy a "custom". 

Reason why I wanted that. I had in my head an idea of materials, specs and color combination that cant be found on a production brand guitar unless I pay 3000$. I know it need it new pups, new setup, and prob dressing the frets, but that was part of the "fun" process I wanted to do. I cant build my own guitar.


at the end I found a sale on a nice looking LTD eclipse on my local store and GAS kicked in. so it was get it that day and deal with having the "wrong" colors/wood. or wait X amount of weeks/months for a china PRS.... got my LTD, put the EMGs and Im happy for now..... did a quick "setup" myself and its ok, still needs a pro setup done on it, Im still bit out on intonation


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## Dantas

Just discovered this thread today while at work. That was my face reading every page.


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## marcwormjim

Electric Wizard said:


> People are coming from a good place when they advise caution.



You're right. Being the internet, sometimes it's easy for me to miss the altruism in Chokey Chicken's posts.


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## iron blast

Did you fix the issues yet? because for me none of those issues would be hard to do. Id take the chrome covers from the stock pups and use them on your new ones. The bridge would be replaced so I could adjust the distance easy,pickups could be realigned easy enough IMHO looks way cooler then most $400 guitars I've ever seen so I'd be willing to throw $ into making it play like a beast


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## Cayoub84

Here is the one I got on ebay from Z.Dressy. Im pretty sure this is by a different builder. After swapping out the bridge, the pickups and tuners and properly setting it up, it actually plays really well and sounds superb. I will say that towards the higher registers of the neck its tough to access all the notes. I think the bottom of the neck near the joint just needs to be sanded down. as far as dead notes and fret buzz goes, all were gone after setting it up.

I will also add that the build quality (imo) is in the same ballpark as an Indonesian Ibanez.

All in all, if you are going for the aesthetics of a blackmachine and are willing to throw in a little cash to upgrade it, it was definitely worth $360 bucks.

Tuners have been replaced with Sperzel tuners, brand new hipshot 7 bridge and Seymore duncan Pegasus/Sentient.


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## marcwormjim

BLASPHEMER


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## mortbopet

Sorry for being out of the loop in this thread for quite a while, but i wanted to share my experiences with the guitar, post honeymoon phase (if you could even call it that) with you.

As you've read, yes, there was some problems, and even some major ones. But to be quite honest, i've really enjoyed working on the guitar! As stated, i had an open mindset with this, and in having that, i've learned quite a lot during it.
As for the neck holes - yes, they were horrible! I took the neck of to see that only 2 of the 4 screws actually had proper grip of the wood. One of the holes actually look like it had been drilled twice (no wonder it wouldn't grip) - imagine a rectangular hole.
I had to decide between drilling out the holes and inserting a piece of dowel or filling the holes with a sawdust and wood glue mixture - i chose the latter. so far, it's worked flawlessly, and all the screws can get a solid grip of the neck.
The guitar pretty much wasn't even grounded. I detached the bridge to find the grounding wire to be a piece of stripped copper lying next to the bridge. The problems with this were 1. the bridge metal wasn't exposed, so the wire couldn't make proper contact 
2. the guy who had stripped the grounding wire had almost cut off all of the wires in the process.
Solution: I sanded down the bottom of the bridge to expose the metal, and attached a new piece of ground wire, with loads of exposed copper strands, to increase the contact area.
its pretty much impossible to find a location to solder the grounding wire to the bridge, but for now i'm fine with this (especially because i plan on changing the bridge in the future, so i dont want to make any permanent mods in the bridge section that aren't used for the new bridge).
I stated that the saddle screws were a bit long, but the solution was simple - cut a few millimeters of the end of them, and voila, it was possible to intonate properly again.
The nut was quite sharp around the edges, so i took some fine sandpaper and ground down the sides to make it smooth to the touch.
I gave the guitar a (very) DIY fret job, which yielded okay results (i ended up with 1 fret being a bit low - Better than expected, taking into account that i did it with some sandpaper and a metal file!). But it makes me want to try again with proper tools. 
I installed the new pickups which are absolutely amazing! they are some of the best pickups i've played with, and i can definitely recommend them. they're dirt cheap too! (Entwistle HDN matched set).
I used the covers from the old pickups and drilled new holes in them for the pole pieces of the entwhistle. It's a really shoddy job, since the pole pieces doesn't even match in the bottom or the top, but from a distance, it's not noticeable. I'm on the lookout for som pickup cover "blanks" to drill the holes precisely, so that i can get some chrome covers that fit exactly the way they should. 

Those were the modifications. But whats my impression and final recommendation?
Well, to be honest, this guitar gets a lot more playtime than my other 6-string (Sterling JP60). It holds a tuning amazingly well and just plays nicely. So i won't be on the lookout for a new 6 string in a long time.

Would i recommend doing this to others? Well, that depends!
I guess that you all have read the process i've gone through with this guitar and thus have gotten an understanding of how the end result is going to be like. If you *honestly* are prepared to receive a guitar in sub-par condition, and plan on viewing it as a project, then yes! go for it! you can get some awesome guitar shapes and finishes for a fair price with these Chinese dealers, but you of course have to be prepared for what follows.

Things i'd do differently a 2nd time around:
1. order with a gloss finish
2. (if i would be changing the bridge from the start) then order it without a bridge, bridge holes etc.
3. Ask if it is possible to have the body chambered. It isn't a heavy guitar but it ain't lightweight either.


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## TankJon666

Nice looking guitar! And seems like a really cool platform for modding. 

I don't understand why everyone is getting their balls in a twist about a Chinese Blackmachine copy. Pretty sure anyone with the money to buy a Blackmachine isn't going to suddenly be swayed towards buying a cheap Chinese copy.

And I've had plenty of sub £400/$600 named brand guitars that have been a total POS out of the box. I had to return TWO Ibanez RGA8's due to neck problems. I also had a £1400 Warwick Corvette that had to go back because the fretboard started separating from the neck. So I don't see how anyone can criticise a sub $400 guitar for not being perfect straight out the box when so many other big brand makers can't do the same either.


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## Bloodshredder

It looks way more ex.....ve than it actually is (in a good way, not that cheap-expensive.. ugh.. you know?)
Certainly an interesting project. As I'm an avid modder, I can't rule out i might try it out too one day


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## BigBadAl

I have a set of Entwistle HDNs in my Schecter Damien Special and they are great pups !
Did you put the covers on yourself ? would love to do that looks great


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## Tesla

Bloodshredder said:


> It looks way more ex.....ve than it actually is (in a good way, not that cheap-expensive.. ugh.. you know?)
> Certainly an interesting project. As I'm an avid modder, I can't rule out i might try it out too one day



lolling at the profanity typo in expensive haha.


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## Spicypickles

The "I" and "S" will get you every time.


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## Bloodshredder

I'm a true gentleman. I never spell out my F*CKING errors


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## S_P_I_T_F_I_R_E

And the binding are also looking very chinese white.


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## S_P_I_T_F_I_R_E

And the bindings are also looking very chinese white to me.


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## sezna

I saw some strandberg "replicas" on aliexpress. Thinking of pulling the trigger on one, as I won't be able to afford a real strandberg for at _least_ ten years. I asked him for a tremolo steinberger-type chinese bridge, maple board, and no logos at all (same reason as mortbopet not wanting a blackmachine plate). I think I'm gonna treat it as a test run for the strandberg shape and maybe gig it a bit.

If I don't pull the trigger on it, I'm gonna spend the money on a good quality headless bridge and cut up an ibanez into a strandberg shape, convert it to a headless and whatnot. Basically I just really want a strandberg shape guitar, lol.

Anyway, sorry for that oddly tangential and unfocused reply. What I'm trying to say is that aliexpress has strandberg copies now and I'm thinking about getting one.


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## Timmy

hi, how you :?
https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/Stra...95.html?spm=2114.14010208.99999999.270.BxOgAj
I want to order but much afraid...


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## bostjan

Timmy said:


> hi, how you :?
> https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/Stra...95.html?spm=2114.14010208.99999999.270.BxOgAj
> I want to order but much afraid...



Hmm, the price seems fishy.


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## KnightBrolaire

Timmy said:


> hi, how you :?
> https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/Stra...95.html?spm=2114.14010208.99999999.270.BxOgAj
> I want to order but much afraid...



there's no way it'll have lundgrens for real. Not at that price.


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## Kanye

Wow awesome thread and great journey. I had to check it out as I just discovered alixpress the other day while hunting down 7 string tune-o-matic options. 

Have to say... was pretty blown away by what they have on offer there. Cant say I was really tempted, but still was very intrigued by what I saw on display.

Great to be able to read through and learn from OP experience.


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## squids

sorry for the zombie thread, 
but i believe i've come across one of these! my girlfriend, being pretty cool, asked me if i wanted this (anniversary!);
https://reverb.com/item/3605203-blackmachine-copy-b7-with-emg-81-7-seven-string

honestly it looks pretty good to me, although one of the tuners looks a little off-template, and the string ferrules are obviously not straight, but i think it'd be a cool mod-guitar; put a real hipshot on there, change out the tuners, maybe carve the neck down to the joint like an actual blackmachine.

any thoughts?


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## triviumwcy

Timmy said:


> hi, how you :?
> https://ru.aliexpress.com/item/Stra...95.html?spm=2114.14010208.99999999.270.BxOgAj
> I want to order but much afraid...



hahaha,the pics are real, but the guitar is from the seller ''meag666'' and the guitar is already sold at a ridiculous high price compared to what they cost in US.

oh,btw that's a legit Sweden CS 8 string you are seeing.


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