# The Beard Files: Does De-Tuning Make You Heavier?



## SeanSan (Feb 9, 2014)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqRhA4pDc4Y

Saw this video shared by Ola Englund on Facebook today, I wanna hear what you guys think! 

Discuss!  I think I'll start. I'll just copy paste with what I said on the Youtube video.

"Tuning can make a difference! But the obsession over it is way out of proportion I think. I get really annoyed when I see people with 7 strings and they still tune down. DO YOU REALLY NEED TO TUNE ANY LOWER? Is drop A REALLY not heavy enough?

That's just me though. Heavy is not always about the tuning. The more I think of it even, the more I realise that it doesn't really have much to do with it also. Opeth has HEAVY shit and they tune to standard. Maybe the "Djent" obsessed people should take note of that and try to write something heavy on a standard 6 string for once.

The whole "000-00-0000-00-000" + atmospheric/ambient leads thing is getting REALLY boring for me too. <--- FOR MEEEEEEE PERSONALLY

MY TWO CENTS. flame shield on&#65279;"


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## flexkill (Feb 9, 2014)

To me everything sounds better tuned down half step from 440. Drop D.....LOVE IT! C-C sharp.....bring the HEAVIES! Thats as detuned as I will ever go or will ever need.


It's all personal preference though man. Lot of guys got some killer heavy shit in B and drop A and whatnot. 


One of my favorite bands, SSO's very own E.N.D. is a prime example. LOVE THIS SHIT!


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## Vhyle (Feb 9, 2014)

Sylosis would beg to differ as well.


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## abandonist (Feb 9, 2014)

I think volume has a bigger effect than people give credit for in the heaviness wars.

That said, I tune low as hell and play drone music so what the hell do I know.


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## scottro202 (Feb 9, 2014)

I don't think so. I think dynamics and note choice, and a good drummer really makes a song heavy. Think of all the Slayer and Megadeth in E. Hell, Gojira's heavy as balls and they're only in D standard.


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## Michael T (Feb 9, 2014)

I think as with every aspect of guitar playing "heavy" tone is in the hands. There is some heavy stuff that's played in standard that's just brutal.

Personally the lowest I'll tune and still find it pleasing to my ears and playing style is Drop C or C Standard. 90% of my riffs are written in D Standard tho or C#. I can still write/play some crushing black metal in standard tuning that's just brutal as hell. 

It all boils down to personal preference.


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## fps (Feb 9, 2014)

In reply to the OP I have a 7 and tune down, but hear me out! 
We tune half a step down then drop, so the 6th string is C#, as this sounds heavy but friendly, and most importantly fits our singer's vocal range. Our other guitarist has a 6 string that stops there, so I tune my 7th string to G# so it matches his 5th string. It doesn't get much play that low, and is mainly a texture thing. Anyway, he's appreciative of it 

For sludge and doom, I say keep lowering, the lower the better. For technical metal, I think lower than A it becomes impossible to hear what's going on. But that can itself be part of the appeal!


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## SeanSan (Feb 9, 2014)

@fps
I understand your situation and I'm kinda interested in hearing how you use that 7th string! I guess I got a bit too hasty with the tuning down a 7 rage. I think it depends on what you're playing. Some people tune their 7 strings a whole step down and just goes "CCHUGCHUGCHUGCHUGHUCHUGHCHUGUHC luk at mi s0 h34vy!"

I agree with you with the Doom metal thing though!

@abandonist

I have never thought of how volume could affect teh heavies. Care to explain? 


I currently tune to standard, but my ideal tuning would be on D standard or drop C (for metal atleast). With 7 strings, the lowest I'd go is 1/2 step down + drop tune low B. It's fun to jam out with that tuning and make some Ola Englund/Feared ripoff riffs.


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## Nick4764 (Feb 9, 2014)

The key to making something sound heavy is all in the writing. Emmure tunes an 8 string down to Eb yet Element (Aeons Past Era) play in standard (6 string mind you) and are infinitely heavier than Emmure ever wishes they could be. Tuning low for the sole purpose of sounding heavy is nothing more than gimmicky and it will always show, it is all about how well the riffs are written. (Note: I'm not shitting on down tuning itself, but the idea that the best way to make something sound heavy is tuning as low as possible).


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## asfeir (Feb 9, 2014)

One of my favourite bands, Iced earth play in standard and I think they are pretty heavy. 
De-tuning makes the registry lower.


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## lucasreis (Feb 9, 2014)

I love all tunings, they're tools, and I'm hungry, I like to experiment with them all. That's why I have a 6, a 7 and an 8 string. And I experiment with lots and lots of tunings. But does a lower tuning make you heavier? No. A lot of factors do, tuning is just one of them. It's possible to be heavy even if you put a capo and play above E standard. I cringe whenever a guitar player says 2 things:

1. Low tuning automatically makes you heavier
2. Seven-String guitars have a different sound (are more heavy) than detuned six strings.

It's stupid. Strings, tension, regulation, scale, pickups, everything contributes to heaviness. I cringe with these things. Sorry for the rant. I normally play with lower tunings because I like the sound of them, but I don't think they automatically make a song heavier. 

Nickelback plays some songs in Bb and Gojira plays in D. Do the math


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## Asrial (Feb 9, 2014)

I think it's _helping_ to detune just a bit in a metal context, but heaviness is more a question about (mostly right-hand) technique and songwriting, and is perceived as mindblowingly many things. I personally find a solid groove and mid tempo to be housing the heaviest stuff, while other might like an emphasis on shred and complex riffing.

Detuning could help the player perceive more discordance and harmonies not as easily obtainable in a standard tuning, so there it can help.


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## Curt (Feb 9, 2014)

I tune to Drop C on 6 and Drop #A on 7. And I dont find any of my music to be as heavy as slayer who plays in E/Eb...


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## scottro202 (Feb 9, 2014)

I think when you play a drop-tuned 6-string (or something with 7+) there are frequencies that come out of the instrument that may make it sound deeper (even if you're compensating for the tuning and playing in the same register as before), not necessarily "heavier" but in combination with amp, pick, technique etc you can achieve said effect. Think about playing a E5 power chord with the root on the 7th fret on the A versus 12th fret on the E.


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## The Reverend (Feb 9, 2014)

Bunch of old dudes in here, I see.

Take a riff by a band that plays in Drop A and pitch shift it to Drop D. It's not nearly as impactful. Do the reverse. If you can get away from how different it sounds than the song you know and love, you'll think it's heavier. I'm also curious, what is this "technique" that makes someone sound heavy? Not a single one of you has been more specific than to say "the right hand." You can only pick so hard, or strum so hard, or what have you before you're going sharp, so what is it?


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## Curt (Feb 9, 2014)

You're missing the point, reverend. It is song structure that defines heaviness. Gojira is heavy as ...., and they tune higher than my band. My music is lower in pitch, but is "softer" from a songwriting standpoint.


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 9, 2014)

I have to agree that it takes way more than tuning down to make music sound heavy (especially in a band setting). Back in high school I wouldn't have, but you know... 

With a whole band it's on everybody to make the music heavy. I mean you can be tuned to drop Z and going crazy, but if your drummer is holding down a "country" beat it's just going to derail the "feel", IMO. 

I don't play in a band anymore, so I get to do 100% whatever I want and I have a 6 in D# standard, a 6 in drop C and a 7 in drop A (which also doubles as my E standard guitar) and I believe anything I write in D# or on the bottom 6 strings of my 7 is just as heavy as anything I write in drop C or if I feel like chugging my top string on my 7.

Hell, I gave up on tuning down once I sat down to learn Redneck by LoG and realized it was in plain old drop D. Now if I want to go lower I just buy guitars with more strings (even if all I want to do is chugchugchug the top string) as most of my playing is centered around the bottom 6 strings with the 7th (or 8th when I had one, haha) string added for more range/depth.

Having said all that, I will own a guitar for a much lower tuning one day. Either another 8 for drop E or a 28-30" scale 7 so I don't have to use dental floss for my high E. Just because I want one, not because I think it's the only way to bring the br00tz.


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 9, 2014)

Why always with the ....ing double posts?! I only hit the post button once!

I guess I'll just take this opportunity to say that all in all I do believe it comes down to composition more than anything to make the heavies.


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## Necris (Feb 9, 2014)

This "beard" shit needs to stop.

My general rule is "if it sounds heavy in E Standard then tuning it lower won't hurt it".


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## Curt (Feb 9, 2014)

Yeah, the beard obsession is getting out of hand.


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## dedsouth333 (Feb 9, 2014)

Hey, beards are the shit!

Jk. I have a beard and love it to death but I do find it odd that every other thread that pops up on here lately has "beard" in the title.


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## scottro202 (Feb 9, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> I'm also curious, what is this "technique" that makes someone sound heavy? Not a single one of you has been more specific than to say "the right hand." You can only pick so hard, or strum so hard, or what have you before you're going sharp, so what is it?



It has to do with how you attack the string, how hard you attack the string, the angle, strings you use, the kind of picks you use, whether you use picks or not, your palm-muting technique (do you "choke" it more or let the notes ring more?"). All of those factors help your rhythm guitar sound without tuning down. 

A light-handed player playing 9's with a .60mm pick versus a heavy-handed player, same tuning same guitar but heavier strings and a heavier pick will sound different all else being equal, possibly "heavier" due to more thicker strings and heavier attack will push the front of an amp differently, which will subtly change the way it overdrives.


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## flexkill (Feb 9, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> Not a single one of you has been more specific than to say "the right hand." You can only pick so hard, or strum so hard, or what have you before you're going sharp, so what is it?


A lot of guitar playing comes down to feel man. It can't be explained. I happen to believe that this is what separates good guitarist from great guitarist. It can't be taught....it is your own individual thing.


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## Khaerruhl (Feb 9, 2014)

I think that stuff sounds cool when it's downtuned, the ideal being somewhere around C standard. I was trying to get into bands like Mors Principium Est, and it just didn't work. Awesome songs, but something was missing to me. I guess the lower frequencies rub me the right way. *shrug* 

That said, I think it's dangerous to think that downtuning is what makes something inherently heavy. It's a tool, yes, but to me the actual riff and songwriting is more important. Besides, if one writes an earth shattering riff in E standard who knows, it could become a thing of wonders downtuned, or it could become a messy slush. It all depends. And personal preference chimes in too.


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## abandonist (Feb 9, 2014)

SeanSan said:


> @abandonist
> 
> I have never thought of how volume could affect teh heavies. Care to explain?



Sure! I love talking about this.

You have to start thinking in terms of the 'physicality of sound'. It's a bit unfair of a comparison, but for the sake of demonstration think about this: We take a syncopated riff with the kicks and guitar aligned. Heavy stuff. Play the same riff on a 1x12 practice amp. Sure, sounds nice. Now play it through a full stack at performance level. The notes actually provide a physical sensation in your gut, your ears are being pushed to their limits. Much much heavier even though it's the same riff. 

Think about doom. It's usually played very loud through big amps and thought of as one of the heavier genres of music. There's a reason. 

Practicing I play through 3 amps all turned up very loud, and my drummer hits with all the force she has to keep up with the volume. It just sounds IMMENSE. If we played the same stuff at a reasonable volume and didn't hit as hard it wouldn't have the same effect. 

The other part comes down to song writing. When we ratchet up a crescendo and you finally get that Hammer Drop of locking into a groove it sounds like the end of days. That's down to composition.

So, I'd say heaviness in terms of using a distorted guitar to achieve a head bangable level of heavy is down to volume first, then songwriting - not necessarily the tuning. 

Although as an aside I'll add that lower notes played very loud will impact the listener much harder than highs. Lows literally shake your body more since the waves are longer. So downtuning does play a role, but it's only useful if you have the power to make it felt.


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## flexkill (Feb 9, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Practicing I play through 3 amps all turned up very loud, and my drummer hits with all the force she has to keep up with the volume. It just sounds IMMENSE. If we played the same stuff at a reasonable volume and didn't hit as hard it wouldn't have the same effect.
> 
> .



That is more the dynamics of your playing than volume. If it was about volume, if I crank ABBA in my car stereo will it bring teh metulz??? No, it will just be ABBA really loud.


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## Electric Wizard (Feb 9, 2014)

I agree with the gist of the video, but I was disappointed that Fluff, as a somewhat popular gear demo guy, wrote off 9 strings as being too many and implied that bass and guitar serve the same purpose. I'd think someone that does lots of mixes and demos would understand the difference in bass and guitar, and it's a shame to see someone with any kind of following to perpetuate the idea that the number of strings determines the merits of an instrument.


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## abandonist (Feb 9, 2014)

flexkill said:


> That is more the dynamics of your playing than volume. If it was about volume, if I crank ABBA in my car stereo will it bring teh metulz??? No, it will just be ABBA really loud.



Apples and Oranges. In the context of my post we're talking about metal. Louder music is more intense. Physically. Scientifically.


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## Zalbu (Feb 9, 2014)

Whether something is heavy or not depends on a whole lot more than just tuning. Protest The Hero play in D# standard on 6 strings and it makes me want to go batshit just as much as Meshuggah, who tune a semitone down from standard on an 8 string. But honestly, would a riff like this be as heavy if it was played in E standard on a 6 string? That being said, I do think that the sweet spot is around Drop C and C# standard for 6 strings and Drop Ab for 7 strings. You can use 10 string guitars and only chug on the bottom two strings for all I care, as long as there's still some note clarity left.

Also, did he say 'Tobin' Abasi?


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## larry (Feb 9, 2014)

yeah, he did say 'tobin'. 

tuning alone, has nothing to do with it imo. it all boils down to the emotional content in your writing. often times musical pieces that are described to me as being heavy, or songs that I find heavy have a certain aggressive over all timbre and a darker mood. it could be argued that none of those things on their own are heavy, but rather the combination of them and the manner in which they're applied to influence emotion. no two players are exactly alike. some can fully express themselves with 6 (or less), while others might prefer >7. I hope that makes sense. 

I also find it pretty silly to ascribe the demise of the bassist's role to the increasing number of lower strings appearing on guitars.  in fact, there have been players from both sides of the fence who clearly demonstrate that they could give a shit about what either instrument's primary role is.


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## Zalbu (Feb 9, 2014)

Yeah, the bass thing doesn't make sense. The bassist's role isn't going to be phased out, every song will sound thin and lifeless without bass. There might be some problems if your bassist only sticks to a 4 string bass while you're using a 9 string guitar, though...


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## abandonist (Feb 9, 2014)

Zalbu said:


> 'Tobin' Abasi?



RACIST


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## fps (Feb 9, 2014)

SeanSan said:


> @fps
> I understand your situation and I'm kinda interested in hearing how you use that 7th string! I guess I got a bit too hasty with the tuning down a 7 rage. I think it depends on what you're playing. Some people tune their 7 strings a whole step down and just goes "CCHUGCHUGCHUGCHUGHUCHUGHCHUGUHC luk at mi s0 h34vy!"
> 
> I agree with you with the Doom metal thing though!



Yeah it's just for emphasis of certain parts really, can hear it at 25:48 and 27:01 here  and some other places, but it's late  Sounds cool with it doubling with the bass sometimes, and now we have a 5 string bass so you get three separate octaves of the same riff, which is badass!


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## cerendir (Feb 9, 2014)

Zalbu said:


> Yeah, the bass thing doesn't make sense. The bassist's role isn't going to be phased out, every song will sound thin and lifeless without bass. There might be some problems if your bassist only sticks to a 4 string bass while you're using a 9 string guitar, though...



The problem is though... the traditional role of bass in metal is doubling the guitars one octave lower. Now with eight and nine string guitars and whatnot I think we're quickly running out of audible frequencies in the low register, if we haven't already.

Forgive me for my ignorance when it comes to this matter, the lowest I'll go is drop C, but do bass and guitar play in the same octave when you start putting eight and nine strings into the equation?


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## AxeHappy (Feb 9, 2014)

Tuning is just another tool in the songwriting box. And it is 100% songwriting that makes something heavy. 

How is this even a discussion? It has been amply demonstrated that you can be heavy as .... in tons of different tunings. 

....ing Bach was heavy as .... on an organ for ....s sake.


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## flexkill (Feb 9, 2014)

cerendir said:


> The problem is though... the traditional role of bass in metal is doubling the guitars one octave lower. Now with eight and nine string guitars and whatnot I think we're quickly running out of audible frequencies in the low register, if we haven't already.
> 
> Forgive me for my ignorance when it comes to this matter, the lowest I'll go is drop C, but do bass and guitar play in the same octave when you start putting eight and nine strings into the equation?


Yeah, I was wondering same thing. The bass is going to, at some point, have to play higher in the sound field. So the guitars will be playing the bass end and the bass playing more of the guitar range. It would seem to me the only way to keep it from being a total mess?


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## Veldar (Feb 9, 2014)

cerendir said:


> The problem is though... the traditional role of bass in metal is doubling the guitars one octave lower. Now with eight and nine string guitars and whatnot I think we're quickly running out of audible frequencies in the low register, if we haven't already.


 
I think bassist just have to rethink what there doing in a band, if the solely exist to double the guitars I think they should quit, I play bass with my fingers and I plays chords, counter melodys and add to the overall peice not just double stuff an octave lower, we have pedals for that.


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## Zalbu (Feb 9, 2014)

cerendir said:


> The problem is though... the traditional role of bass in metal is doubling the guitars one octave lower. Now with eight and nine string guitars and whatnot I think we're quickly running out of audible frequencies in the low register, if we haven't already.
> 
> Forgive me for my ignorance when it comes to this matter, the lowest I'll go is drop C, but do bass and guitar play in the same octave when you start putting eight and nine strings into the equation?


You can always do what Veil of Maya do, get a 7 string bass with an extra high string to double up tapping and leads and stuff


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## flexkill (Feb 9, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Apples and Oranges. In the context of my post we're talking about metal. Louder music is more intense. Physically. Scientifically.



Dude, I am truly not trying to be a dick....but this makes no sense whatsoever to me. 

Yes louder is more intense because it is loud...maybe it's painful even. But it is merely volume, thats all it adds is volume. If you are talking tube guitar amps ....well the sound of your amp can get better with volume in some cases....but I don't think this is what you mean?

When you play loud, you more than likely change how you are playing as a reaction to the loudness....this goes back to dynamics. Volume is just 
that....volume.

 I just saw your sig.....Oh my!


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 9, 2014)

cerendir said:


> The problem is though... the traditional role of bass in metal is doubling the guitars one octave lower.


No, though that's certainly a common (and rather unfortunate) misconception among certain parts of the rock/metal community. The traditional role of electric bass in rock and metal music is to fill in the low end of the frequency spectrum ("low" being a relative and fairly variable term here). That's as much down to note range as it is which frequencies are emphasized. A bass can still accomplish that while playing in the same octave as or even doubling the guitar.


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## abandonist (Feb 9, 2014)

flexkill said:


> Dude, I am truly not trying to be a dick....but this makes no sense whatsoever to me.
> 
> Yes louder is more intense because it is loud...maybe it's painful even. But it is merely volume, thats all it adds is volume. If you are talking tube guitar amps ....well the sound of your amp can get better with volume in some cases....but I don't think this is what you mean?
> 
> ...



I think I've made my case about as well as I can. We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 9, 2014)

flexkill said:


> Dude, I am truly not trying to be a dick....but this makes no sense whatsoever to me.
> 
> Yes louder is more intense because it is loud...maybe it's painful even. But it is merely volume, thats all it adds is volume. If you are talking tube guitar amps ....well the sound of your amp can get better with volume in some cases....but I don't think this is what you mean?
> 
> ...


He's right actually. Stop thinking about it purely in terms of loudness and think about sound pressure, resonances, and maybe a bit regarding frequency loudness/perception curves.


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## flexkill (Feb 9, 2014)

InfinityCollision said:


> He's right actually. Stop thinking about it purely in terms of loudness and think about sound pressure, resonances, and maybe a bit regarding frequency loudness/perception curves.



No, man. No one is convincing me that loud makes it more heavy....no.
















NO.


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## Don Vito (Feb 9, 2014)

Necris said:


> This "beard" shit needs to stop.


Repost from off topic:








idgaf about tunings

This is in C, and I find it heavier than anything in Drop A and F#. It's all about note choice and artistic direction.


I'll agree with abadonist on the volume thing. Something like E standard can sound immense through the right amp and volume level.


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## InfinityCollision (Feb 9, 2014)

flexkill said:


> No, man. No one is convincing me that loud makes it more heavy....no.
> NO.


YES.


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## Ikiharmaa (Feb 9, 2014)

I wasn't aware people tune down because it sounds heavier  It's simply a matter of sounding different just like something sounds different when played in Eb instead of E.

I personally like what down-tuning and 'djent' has done to how people view guitar tones. There seems to be a lot more of airy mid-oriented guitar tones around which has imo only aided the presence of bass in the mix. Perhaps I'm wrong and there has always just been good and bad mixes though, or perhaps production as a whole has gone forward a lot during this millenium.


I really have zero problem with people moving to 9-strings and have no idea why someone would give the instrument itself shit when clearly it's just the players who aren't (yet) utilizing the whole range. It's not like most pieces played on a piano would utilize the whole range either.. I can't see why it should be a different case with guitars. I personally can't imagine playing even an 8-string without it being fanned fret because of how the longer scale lenght affects the higher strings, but surely other people might have different expectations when it comes to their guitar tone. So what if their guitar doesn't even sound like a guitar anymore, there's plenty of new sounds and textures to explore out there and who am I to say those are not worthy.


I believe the trend to broaden the range of instruments like guitar and bass will ultimately be beneficial to music and musicians even if we can't see it being that beneficial yet.


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## Yo_Wattup (Feb 9, 2014)

I think this is one of the heaviest pieces of music ever written, and its only in C, sure its not E, but its far from the super low stuff we have in death metal nowadays. Stuff like Nile, messhuggah etc doesnt compare with this in terms of heaviness _in my opinion_. I've always believed that downtuning has nothing to do heaviness. I play in A standard on my 7 because I like the sound, not because I'm trying to be heavy.


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## The Reverend (Feb 9, 2014)

This has to be a goddamned trend in my life or something, but again...

Abandonist is really not full of shit here. A guitar in standard playing the same riff as a guitar playing the same riff an octave down will physically rumble you in different ways. I've been to shows and stood in the front and literally thought my heart was going to explode because you can feel the heaviness. The lower you go, the more forceful those vibrations will be. It's why you can hear a car's bass even indoors, sometimes. 

Also, to echo Necris, if you've written a "heavy" riff, it's only going to sound heavier if you transposed it down. If Gojira played what they played in A standard, would any of you suggest that it was any less heavy? I doubt it. If they released an album like that I'd wager a lot of you would say it was their heaviest yet. I'll concede that songwriting has a lot to do with it, and to a small degree, like less than 1%, that your technique has something to do with it, but I think it's all in the tuning. There is a reason the genre conventions nearly require downtuning of some sort.


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## vilk (Feb 9, 2014)

As a big fan of stoner/doom/drone music, I honestly think that a lot of that stuff wouldn't sound half as interesting in standard tuning. I don't technically understand why, but I feel like you can hear the way the guitar distorts more... clearly? when the guitars are tuned lower, and in a genre where distortion is the name of the game obviously that's pretty important. If Sleep were playing in standard it wouldn't even sound like the same thing.

For me, D standard is low enough to be heavy if you can write some good riffage--like Mastodon.
C standard and lower is heavy even if you're not even trying to be heavy--like QOTSA or True Widow


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## Obsidian Soul (Feb 9, 2014)

I just want to play devil's advocate even though I am a garbage guitarist,but who said detuning makes you heavier?Just because a band may play 7+ strings and detune doesn't mean they think higher tunings are not heavy or just as heavy.To me,different tunings have different "textures" that may sound better in higher or lower tunings.


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## oddcam (Feb 9, 2014)

Lower tuning _does_ make music heavier, but at a cost. You can play a riff lower and lower, but it loses energy. This means sacrificing part of the riff for a certain kind of heaviness. As Axehappy said, it's just another songwriting tool.


As for my personal opinion, de-tuning is often a crutch for those who can't otherwise write a heavy riff. Start with a boring riff, drop it to G, and end up with a heavy AND boring riff. Look at Rage Against the Machine - one of the heaviest bands around, with guitars never going below drop D.


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## Zalbu (Feb 9, 2014)

oddcam said:


> Look at Rage Against the Machine - one of the heaviest bands around, with guitars never going below drop D.


Having Zack de la Rocha in your band kinda helps with that too. Hell, put him in One Direction and they'd sound heavier than Dying Fetus


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## Harry (Feb 10, 2014)

oddcam said:


> Lower tuning _does_ make music heavier, but at a cost. You can play a riff lower and lower, but it loses energy. This means sacrificing part of the riff for a certain kind of heaviness. As Axehappy said, it's just another songwriting tool.
> 
> 
> As for my personal opinion, de-tuning is often a crutch for those who can't otherwise write a heavy riff. Start with a boring riff, drop it to G, and end up with a heavy AND boring riff. Look at Rage Against the Machine - one of the heaviest bands around, with guitars never going below drop D.



Calm like A Bomb has a low A and Maggie's Farm has a low B. Possibly more songs, but those are the two I know for certain.
Not the traditional dropped tunings AFAIK, but just the low string tuned to A/B.
The bass tone is a huge element too of course. Tom's single coil sound leaves a bit more space than a full size humbucker tone would, so Tim could afford to be a bit more present in the mix and have a fuller thicker souding bass tone. The end result is that the full band mix sounds just as massive as if they had used humbuckers instead with a slightly thinner bass tone.



vilk said:


> As a big fan of stoner/doom/drone music, I honestly think that a lot of that stuff wouldn't sound half as interesting in standard tuning. I don't technically understand why, but I feel like you can hear the way the guitar distorts more... clearly? when the guitars are tuned lower, and in a genre where distortion is the name of the game obviously that's pretty important. If Sleep were playing in standard it wouldn't even sound like the same thing.
> 
> For me, D standard is low enough to be heavy if you can write some good riffage--like Mastodon.
> C standard and lower is heavy even if you're not even trying to be heavy--like QOTSA or True Widow




Can't imagine many of my fave stoner/sludge/doom/post-metal records in E standard.
On the other side of the coin, I think that tuning TOO low would detract from the music and the power.
The main thing is the style of the riffs and the punch that come from being in that D to Bb tuning range. 
Most bands in this style seem to have realized that, otherwise it probably would have been common to grab a baritone guitar and just tune way down to a low E or whatever.
The occasional track with a low F# (like what Isis did to add power to certain sections in songs in F#) or around that low is great, but an entire doom/sludge/post metal album tuned that low or lower would be probably get boring to listen too.


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## TRENCHLORD (Feb 10, 2014)

I kind of see it both ways, not to be a peacemaker or anything (god hates a peacemaker ).

I do almost always end up thinking the lower tuned version of a specific riff sounds "heavier", although it depends much on the context of the key change.
D standard down to C standard is the right zone for my own playing preference. 
That one-two step down zone allows for the gauge on the big string to still be flutter-able, which helps keep me from relying too much on the low chugs.


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## Curt (Feb 10, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> Also, to echo Necris, if you've written a "heavy" riff, it's only going to sound heavier if you transposed it down. If Gojira played what they played in A standard, would any of you suggest that it was any less heavy? I doubt it. If they released an album like that I'd wager a lot of you would say it was their heaviest yet. I'll concede that songwriting has a lot to do with it, and to a small degree, like less than 1%, that your technique has something to do with it, but I think it's all in the tuning. There is a reason the genre conventions nearly require downtuning of some sort.


 Tuning down does give the low end more thump than crunch, and some people would equate that to heaviness. But if you took a song in E standard and transposed it down to A standard, let's say a classic Metallica riff, I feel like it would lose the edge and bite that made the riff what it was. Whereas if you took something like let's say Feeding Frenzy by Within The Ruins, transposed up to drop D from Drop G#, it would lose the thump and grunt that makes it heavy. It can go both ways, I feel. 



oddcam said:


> Lower tuning _does_ make music heavier, but at a cost. You can play a riff lower and lower, but it loses energy. This means sacrificing part of the riff for a certain kind of heaviness. As Axehappy said, it's just another songwriting tool.
> 
> 
> Start with a boring riff, drop it to G, and end up with a heavy AND boring riff.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Feb 10, 2014)

I couldn't take him seriously as soon as he made the comment about bassists being eliminated by ERG players, JUST BECAUSE it's a low tuning. Meshuggah's been tuning down to bass territory for 12 years, and STILL HAD BASS PLAYING A PROMINENT ROLE IN THE MUSIC THAT ENTIRE TIME, so I don't understand why people don't understand this yet. I agree with what's said earlier in the thread, if you think that bass's only role in music is to double the guitars an octave down, I think you need to start over.

Honestly, if any argument against downtuning uses "BUT WHAT ABOUT THE POOR BASSISTS" as one of their main points, you've lost credibility to me. Even playing the exact same note, bass and guitar are GOING to sound different, plain and simple. Just like how you couldn't have a band with three 8 string guitars and no bassist all playing the same thing and expect it to have any power behind it, you can't have a band with 3 bassists all banging away at the low string with ....tons of distortion, and expect it to have the same bite and punch of a guitar, downtuned or not.

As for the question of "Does downtuning=heavy?" I would say not necessarily. Tuning is a tool, and honestly, that's the only way of looking at it, imho. It's a tool for adapting your instrument to fit your musical needs and wants. I've heard light songs written in low tunings (Including a jazz fusion song written by an SSO-er that is played on an 8 string with a low E, and love songs written by Devin Townsend in Open C and Open B) and heavy songs written in comparatively high tunings (Gojira, The Dillinger Escape Plan, Ride the Lightning through Black Album era Metallica, etc)

I honestly do most of my lighter playing in a low tuning (Open B), and play really heavy stuff on my D standard tuned 6er, or my 7 tuned to Drop C# with a low G#. So in my opinion no, detuning doesn't need to mean heavier sounding stuff. The problem is that, as stated earlier, it's often used as a crutch for sounding heavier. The rest of my old band had that mentality (though the other guitarist was just using it as an excuse for not having to use another guitar/set up his guitar with a floating trem for a lower tuning)

As for the argument "taking a song and tuning it down makes it heavier," that can be the case, but I've also actually heard the opposite. Somewhere on youtube, there's an edit of Enter Sandman floating around that's been pitch shifted up a minor third, and honestly, it sounded heavier than the original, but in a different way. The original was more powerful, the edit was more in line with the traditional thrash sound, which kinda revolves around higher tunings. There's also DragonForce, who used to have to tune down to Eb live. Idk about you, but I think it'd take a lot more than tuning down a half step to make those songs heavier.

TL;DR - the whole "we're making bass obsolete" argument is a ....ing joke, so if you're using it you don't know what you're talking about, and while tuning down CAN make a song heavier, it's hardly the be-all-end-all of heaviness. If you wanna do it, great! If not, that's cool too! You can be heavy in standard, you can be light in Drop E (AAL, anybody?)


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## Paul McAleer (Feb 10, 2014)

Technically if you using thicker guitar strings to make the clarity of your down-tuned instrument to more adequate. Yes you'll be heavier by a small degree. 

Sources: Weight


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## KJGaruda (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't know you guys, I think the much sought after heaviness can sometimes come from the rhythm section. 

Depending on how the drums are mixed, as well as what the drummer is doing, makes a huuuge difference. I find myself listening to a song and if the drums are nice and chunky, I cant help but think, 'Got_damn_, those drums/that bass kick!'. An example for that is Arsis' Lepers Caress EP or their album Unwelcome that came out last year.

I don't subscribe to the idea that de-tuning makes you heavier though. There are too many bands I know of in standard 6 or 7 string tuning that just totally tear you a new one. It's all a state of mind.


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## Jason_Clement (Feb 10, 2014)

Zenki_Kouki said:


> I don't know you guys, I think the much sought after heaviness can sometimes come from the rhythm section.
> 
> Depending on how the drums are mixed, as well as what the drummer is doing, makes a huuuge difference. I find myself listening to a song and if the drums are nice and chunky, I cant help but think, 'Got_damn_, those drums/that bass kick!'. An example for that is Arsis' Lepers Caress EP or their album Unwelcome that came out last year.
> 
> I don't subscribe to the idea that de-tuning makes you heavier though. There are too many bands I know of in standard 6 or 7 string tuning that just totally tear you a new one. It's all a state of mind.



Agreed! Once I stopped trying to dial out all the mids and highs in my tone trying to get a "thick" and "heavy" tone, and realized that all the heaviness I wanted to hear in my own playing actually came from a full band setting (drums, bass, etc). I became a lot happier as a guitarist and with my tone in general once I embraced that concept. That's my two cents 

Also, lately, I've been tuning UP on my seven string to get "heavier" tones... I find the snap of a good bass string to ride on is arguably "heavier", in my opinion... dat attack... used to play in drop G/A, been rocking standard or half step up lately (C standard) ^^


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## Nats (Feb 10, 2014)

I know everyone here is a recording guru, but have you ever listened to the heaviest riffs solo'd? They sound thin and lifeless regardless of the tuning. Thank the rhythm section (and some good guitar eq'ing) for making that heavy riff sound heavy. The only way you'll get a heavy riff to sound heavy solo'd is if you scoop the shit out of it to get the bass to really resonate. Play a scooped chug riff in your bedroom through any amp and it'll sound heavy. Put that scooped guitar part in a mix and watch it disappear and lose all impact. 

Listen to Tony Danza. He plays many strings and tunes down super low but it's the muddiest sounding piece of shit ever. More strings and lower tunings doesn't equal heavier. It's the drums that really make Danza sound heavier than they are. The main riff of Frayed ends of sanity by Metallica is one of the heaviest riffs in my opinion, and that's standard. Listen to it with the bass mixed back in and it's super crushing.


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## lucasreis (Feb 10, 2014)

Reading through the whole thread I thought about songs and tunings, and, really, you can be heavy, and not heavy with ANY tuning. Check these examples (heavy and non-heavy songs with the same tuning-key)

E Tuning:

Metallica - Master of Puppets


R.E.M - Shiny Happy People


Eb Tuning:

Guns - Sweet Child 'O Mine


Slayer - South of Heaven


D Tuning:

Panic At the Disco - I Write Sins Not Tragedies


Gojira - Where Dragons Dwell


C# Tuning

Ricky Martin - Livin La Vida Loca 


Black Sabbath - Children of the Grave


C Tuning

Nickelback - Savin Me


In Flames - Cloud Connected


B Tuning

Theory of a Deadman - No Surprise


Carcass - No Love Lost


Bb Tuning

Linkin Park - Somewhere I Belong


Nevermore - Enemies of Reality


A Tuning: 

Foo Fighters - Stacked Actors


Fear Factory - Obsolete


See? Tuning does not make you heavier. A lot of factors do, but tuning, per se, doesn't.


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## Darknut (Feb 10, 2014)

Nevermore had 6 strings in Eb for first 3 albums. I'd really like to see something heavier than dreaming neon black on a 6 string above D standard. Death of passion was really heavy.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 10, 2014)

"7 strings are pointless who even needs that" - guitarists in the 90s
"8 strings are pointless who even needs that" - guitarists in the 00s
"9 strings are pointless who even needs that" - guitarists in the 10s

My main instrument is piano and that's got 88 strings get on my level nubby nubs.


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## Darknut (Feb 10, 2014)

coreysMonster said:


> "7 strings are pointless who even needs that" - guitarists in the 90s
> "8 strings are pointless who even needs that" - guitarists in the 00s
> "9 strings are pointless who even needs that" - guitarists in the 10s
> 
> My main instrument is piano and that's got 88 strings get on my level nubby nubs.


I changed the strings on my harpsichord to ernie ball cobalts, and I changed all the tiny plectrums inside to dunlop tortex!


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## rapterr15 (Feb 10, 2014)

Pretty sure Iced Earth is in Eb. Regardless, Jon Schaffer has written some wicked riffs. Particularly on the Dante's Inferno album.



asfeir said:


> One of my favourite bands, Iced earth play in standard and I think they are pretty heavy.
> De-tuning makes the registry lower.


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## coreysMonster (Feb 10, 2014)

Darknut said:


> I changed the strings on my harpsichord to ernie ball cobalts, and I changed all the tiny plectrums inside to dunlop tortex!


Musicians ca. 1720:

A harpsichord using mallets instead of plucking? Why ever would one need such a thing? The added dynamics will result in a most horrid sound and leave cellists banned from the orchestrae! Do these simpletons believe dynamics to be required for musical gravity? Bach used a harpsichord to create music of utmost gravity, without need of ridiculous mallets.


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## RagtimeDandy (Feb 10, 2014)

Heaviness has to do with contrast, listen to any intense classical piece and you'll understand exactly what I mean. It's about ebb and flow, build and release. Listen to Blackwater Park - it's in drop D and the whole album has massively heavy parts. Neurosis - it's all about the buildup. Between the Buried and Me - buildup once again. The Mars Volta - big shocker here, BUILD UP! You can listen to "heavier and heavier" bands and eventually they stop being heavy. True "heaviness" is from good song writing, a sense of build up, and ultimately contrast. The heavy parts are only as heavy as the lighter parts. Tuning plays absolutely no role in heaviness unless you're one of those boring bastards that just assumes lower = heavier.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't do it for the heavies... I drop tune my 8 bc drop E makes sense to me from a chordal perspective and I'm going to tune one of my 7s to A standard (also have one in drop A) because sometimes changing tuning has interesting effects on tone.


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## celticelk (Feb 10, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> There is a reason the genre conventions nearly require downtuning of some sort.



But there must also be a reason that bands *stop* at a particular tuning. Otherwise, everyone would race towards the lowest possible tunings they could get, and we'd see a lot more guys playing 8+-strings or 6-string basses, and no one stopping at C or C#, which is plainly not the case. How does your "heaviness is all downtuning" hypothesis account for this?


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## Rojne (Feb 10, 2014)

A few years ago it was all about tuning lower = heavier.
But as I grew up I started to tune my guitars higher until last year I kept all my guitars in E standard 
and just settled for that tuning as I could write just as heavy riffs with that.

If I detune a guitar today it get's tuned to Drop-D, but in other bands music I don't care what they tune to.. 
as long as it sounds good it doesn't matter at all to me!

But in many ways I hear and agree with what the dude in the vid are talking about!


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## jonajon91 (Feb 10, 2014)

This album (made by a fellow forum member). https://caynug.bandcamp.com/album/imperfection This album is played in the lowwest of the low 0 octave, but it is not reeealy that heavy, hell there are some rap songs on there. 
Also remember that however low mainstream metal goes, doom will always be lower.


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## feraledge (Feb 10, 2014)

I don't have anything against lower tunings, some of my all time favorites have been going low for ages: Carcass in B Standard, Bolt Thrower in A standard and C#, and Nile in Drop A. Then you hear what can be done by a band like Sylosis in E Standard. 
I think a lot of the hubbub comes down to too much information and market space out there making people think there's a right and wrong when it comes to tuning and scale. If Bill Steer from Carcass can play their entire catalog on a vintage Les Paul (B standard in 24.75" scale), then so can you. It just comes down to preferences. I play in Drop C and B Standard sounds WAY different to my ears and is still taking me years to really get used to how it sounds for me (I find it easier on a 7), but E standard takes no effort for me to mess around on/play with. 

TL;DR - I appreciate the plethora of options for 7/8/9 string guitars, but the idea that there's a right and wrong way to do it when there are decades upon decades of evidence to the contrary drives me nuts.


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## fps (Feb 10, 2014)

RagtimeDandy said:


> Heaviness has to do with contrast, listen to any intense classical piece and you'll understand exactly what I mean. It's about ebb and flow, build and release. Listen to Blackwater Park - it's in drop D and the whole album has massively heavy parts. Neurosis - it's all about the buildup. Between the Buried and Me - buildup once again. The Mars Volta - big shocker here, BUILD UP! You can listen to "heavier and heavier" bands and eventually they stop being heavy. True "heaviness" is from good song writing, a sense of build up, and ultimately contrast. The heavy parts are only as heavy as the lighter parts. Tuning plays absolutely no role in heaviness unless you're one of those boring bastards that just assumes lower = heavier.



I was totally with you until the last line. There are different kinds of heavy, and some of them involve very low tuned guitars, like sludge and doom.


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## Cynic (Feb 10, 2014)

(@2:02)

that's what i would consider heavy.


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## gunch (Feb 10, 2014)

Depends on the context and the dynamics of the recording, not to even mention the rest of the band.


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## 3trv5u (Feb 10, 2014)

It's all about the sound and the songwriting.
Also, depends on what you understand under "heavy".

The heaviest parts I've ever heard always included downtuned guitars, insanely low guttural vocals and stupidly slow tempo.

I would say, decide for yourself if a song is heavy or not, music is a very subjective matter and what I find goddamn heavy you could find boring and talentless (or whatever).

God, I hope this makes sense, I really need to sleep now ^^


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## RagtimeDandy (Feb 10, 2014)

fps said:


> I was totally with you until the last line. There are different kinds of heavy, and some of them involve very low tuned guitars, like sludge and doom.



I think you misunderstood me. A song can be heavy with being downtuned, it's just that downtuning =/= heavy. Utilizing the low tuning appropriately can make it that much heavier (such as with sludge and doom)


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## kevdes93 (Feb 10, 2014)

heaviest thing ever recorded.

C standard


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## The Reverend (Feb 11, 2014)

celticelk said:


> But there must also be a reason that bands *stop* at a particular tuning. Otherwise, everyone would race towards the lowest possible tunings they could get, and we'd see a lot more guys playing 8+-strings or 6-string basses, and no one stopping at C or C#, which is plainly not the case. How does your "heaviness is all downtuning" hypothesis account for this?



I would guess they stop for the same reason they downtuned to begin with: They found the heaviness they were looking for. There's a reason I mentioned old men previously, and let me expand a bit further. My generation's Niles and Carcasses are bands like Job For A Cowboy, Whitechapel, and formerly Suicide Silence, along with some others. Nearly all of them started playing in Drop C or B (probably inspired by a lot of bands mentioned here) and went to Drop A or moved to ERGs just like I assume 90s metal bands moved down from E/Eb to that hovering point around C. 

Your point actually affirms an aspect of mine, which is that we *are* seeing a movement towards lower tunings and lotsa strings. I never intended to come across as saying heaviness _depends_ on downtuning, but I _do_ think it's an integral part.


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## The Hiryuu (Feb 11, 2014)

rapterr15 said:


> Pretty sure Iced Earth is in Eb. Regardless, Jon Schaffer has written some wicked riffs. Particularly on Burnt Offerings.



Mostly. They tune lower on some stuff (D on a few songs on the Glorious Burden, Bb on some songs on Framing Armageddon and the Crucible of Man, B on a couple of Dystopia songs...possibly on some stuff on the new one, I forget.)

Also, I think they may have had a song or two in standard (The re-recording of Winter Nights...I think Dark City?)


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## MattyinChains (Feb 11, 2014)

Bands for decades have been a semitone down to Eb standard on 6 string guitars, so whats with all the hate when you do the same on a 7 or 8 (for a start)?

Also, with my 6 I play in drop Db, singing reasons... so that means most of the songs I write are in Db major/minor, just the way I write. However my favourite scale is B minor... so if I dropped down to drop B i'd write in B major/minor a lot of the time. Not because its heavy, but its because I like that scale and them notes.

You dont need an ERG to sound heavy at all, and you dont need to be tuned low as hell. But the low B on a 7 string adds a quality that can't be achieved on a 6 string guitar. Well, I can't achieve it anyways. 

Live and let live I say!


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## SeanSan (Feb 11, 2014)

I don't really like it, but they don't need to stop down tuning if they don't want to, I'll just listen to what I like.  It just gets to me sometimes when I see a "Djent" band or whatever with incredibly low tuning and just raping the lowest string. I really want an 8 string and I might even consider the 9 string (If/When I try one) but I'm sure I'm gonna try to sound heavy in a unique way. (I can't really explain what's in my head at the moment.) And 8th string chuggage is really good on certain parts of songs. Like Solution 45's "The Close Beyond" pre solo riff is on an 8 string and it sounds satan, and also, Meshuggah. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtpRNBnV0QE

^ I think this is a really nice way to make use of an 8 string. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA4_SheHZqM

^ And here's the Solution 45 song. The 8 string comes in at 2:45 and it totally took me by surprise the first time I heard it.

Though I'm not automatically annoyed if someone tunes down his 7 string or 8 string a whole step. I start getting annoyed when they tune that low and just go 0000-00000-00-000000 + ambient leads. But if I hear someone do something different with a down tuned 7-8 string, then I'd totally dig it.

With the issues of guitars replacing bass guitars though. I'm not very smart with recording stuff yet, I still have to set up my own rig and learn how to use audio interfaces but I think that if a 9th string on a guitar is gonna wobble like mad, the 7th string of a bass will be wobbling too, and songs will just be a whole bunch of wobble. 

Once again, just my two cents.


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## wat (Feb 14, 2014)

oddcam said:


> Look at Rage Against the Machine - one of the heaviest bands around, with guitars never going below drop D.


One of the heaviest bands around? Really dude?


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## Veldar (Feb 14, 2014)

^ RATM always bring the mosh with their riffs, a lot better than bands in drop A and the like.


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## J7string (Feb 14, 2014)

I think with anything good in life, it's good to do things reasonably. Guitars, whether they be acoustic or not... have a range. And I believe that range ends at B to A in terms of detuning. Anything more, that's the bassists job. His job is to groove on the really low end... the bass. I honestly don't feel it's a guitarists job to go extremely low.

Now as far as heavy goes, I think it all depends on the players and the listeners. Some people will tell you droning the bottom notes all day is heavy. Some people will tell you breaking up a scale and writing a really powerful gritty run is heavy, and others will say a good progression of power chords is heavy. I find the definition of "heavy" to be totally and completely subjective.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 14, 2014)

^^^ Even if a bassist and a guitarist are tuned the same, in a heavy band they're going to both have drastically different sounds. Being open minded enough to accept any tuning that exists can only give you more ideas, while outright shutting something out only limits you. People get way too uptight about what is and isn't a guitarists or bassists job. How many strings they have vs what they use. How complicated something is to play. None of it matters if artists are creating what they want and enjoying themselves. I think it's asinine that people would outright consider something they personally don't want as worthless and stupid. I don't like Floyd's and I think fanned frets are ultimately fairly silly, but some people really like them both, who the hell am I to call it stupid and useless?

Tune to drop q on your 50 string guitar, using only the low string. If that's how you get your ideas out, then I think that's just great. It's strange that people want to be so exclusionary. Open your minds folks.


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## abandonist (Feb 14, 2014)

I think once you reach a certain level of competence it's ok to laugh about kids buying 8 string $3500 guitars and using 3 strings. It's like a secret handshake.


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## Nats (Feb 14, 2014)

Detuning is a sign of a very small penis.


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## gunch (Feb 15, 2014)

The Reverend said:


> I would guess they stop for the same reason they downtuned to begin with: They found the heaviness they were looking for. There's a reason I mentioned old men previously, and let me expand a bit further. My generation's Niles and Carcasses are bands like Job For A Cowboy, Whitechapel, and formerly Suicide Silence, along with some others. Nearly all of them started playing in Drop C or B (probably inspired by a lot of bands mentioned here) and went to Drop A or moved to ERGs just like I assume 90s metal bands moved down from E/Eb to that hovering point around C.
> 
> Your point actually affirms an aspect of mine, which is that we *are* seeing a movement towards lower tunings and lotsa strings. I never intended to come across as saying heaviness _depends_ on downtuning, but I _do_ think it's an integral part.




I think it's mostly trends and it sort of works in cycles. 

Each tuning and note choice has it's own unique aesthetic and if you get wore out on one you experiment with another.


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## JoshuaVonFlash (Feb 15, 2014)

flexkill said:


> That is more the dynamics of your playing than volume. If it was about volume, if I crank ABBA in my car stereo will it bring teh metulz??? No, it will just be ABBA really loud.


But his signature says volume over talent.


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## Steinmetzify (Feb 15, 2014)

I dig it. Can I write heavy shit in standard? Yeah. Does it sound better to me played in drop C or drop A on a 7? Yeah. I play alone most of the time with a drum track, and the older I get, it seems the slower I go. To me, slower downtuned stuff = heavy. 

Different evolution of music as a personal journey. When I was 15, I thought early Metallica and Slayer were heavy and still do. Building something, and then dropping into a huge groove and blasting it out got me hyped. That's good stuff, and they play in standard. 

Pantera was a huge influence on me, and a lot of their stuff was in standard or drop D. That click, when it dropped and Dime and Vinnie were just grooving and it sounded like a machine, was and still is heavy. 

Crowbar in B? Heavy. Slow, sometimes melodic, just crushing grooves.

I think if the riffs are good it can help, but to me the electric guitar is the most expressive heaviest instrument you can play, and I love it all. 

Downtune or don't. Just make some music.


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## rainbowbrite (Feb 15, 2014)

i think people who care about this stuff are dumb.


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## Curt (Feb 15, 2014)

I still like the idea of downtuning and not really being heavy. I love the way Drop C sounds from an extended chord perspective and the open low C just rings out in a way that is desireble for me. I love Eb standard for my acoustic stuff, but for my metal/rock needs, A downtuned 25.5" scale set neck mahogany guitar with moderate output pickups through a dual rec brings me the sound in my head, whether I am aiming for heaviness or not.


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## Chi (Feb 15, 2014)

It's a preference thing. I grew up with bands that didn't tune as low, but I shifted more towards the drop-tuning brigade. I don't mind a good song in C, but I can't imagine a band playing in F to play a song in C, if you catch my drift. It's all about a bands/artists style and their approach to music.

But yeah, I think a low tuning makes things sound heavier. Not in a writing kind of way, but to my ears. Write the heaviest riff in E, I'd probably prefer a heavy track in G. It's just a preference, and calling people out for their preference is always a stupid thing to do. 

Just listen to what sounds cool to you, man.


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## Abaddon9112 (Feb 15, 2014)

Does de-tuning make you heavier?

Yes

I don't think there's necessarily a 1:1 correlation between lowness of tuning and heaviness of music, but I can't think of a single band I'd consider "heavy" who play in standard tuning. Even just going down to Eb sounds more menacing than E standard to me. I think D, Db, B, Bb, and F are the ideal tunings for heaviness. No real reason other than my own subjective preferences, but other tunings just sound off to me.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Feb 15, 2014)

Does de-tuning make you sound heavier?

Probably not.

Does down-tuning make you sound heavier?

If you go for it, down-tuning will probably give you the results.


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## JPhoenix19 (Feb 15, 2014)

To me, it's an aspect of groove and "energy" in the song's composition. No matter how complex it is, at its roots it must have a combination of accented beats that gets you moving (or headbanging, as it were). This has a lot to do with the rhythm section. On top of that, you've got the choice of notes/chords played by the guitar.

Also, to me, I have a bias for high production values and pristine tone. To me, the "heaviness" of a song will suffer with poor quality tone.

EDIT: All that to say, I think those aspects are more important to making a song sound heavy than the tuning.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 15, 2014)

I never addressed "heaviness" with my post. Lower tuning might help, but in all actuality it's unnecessary for what people consider heavy. The rhythm makes things sound heavy. Bass, drums, rhythm guitar and how you right their parts. Lots of Palm muting, syncopation, etc. Tuning used helps go for a different feel, but still isn't the be all end all of "heavy." Enter Sandman is pretty heavy and it's not in some crazy low tuning. Meanwhile, Vildhjarta's "Shiver" is also heavy. 

Of course, it's still pointless to argue about. If it's heavy it's heavy. If you like it, listen. If you don't, don't listen.


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## rectifryer (Feb 15, 2014)

Some riffs sound stupid in standard tuning yet sound massive an octave below and vice versa!


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## drgamble (Feb 15, 2014)

I play punk music on a 7 tuned to drop A, some stuff sounds kinda heavy, and other stuff does not sound heavy at all. Doesn't really matter. Most of the guys that started using Eb tunings, Drop D tunings etc, did it to help the singer out. Some of the downtuned madness is just about that. To me it doesn't matter what you tune to as long as the song remains the most important thing about the music.


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## The Hiryuu (Feb 15, 2014)

steinmetzify said:


> Different evolution of music as a personal journey. When I was 15, I thought early Metallica and Slayer were heavy and still do. Building something, and then dropping into a huge groove and blasting it out got me hyped. That's good stuff, and they play in standard.



Slayer pretty much only played in standard on Show No Mercy. Basically everything else was at least Eb.

To get to the topic at hand...personally, I just generally prefer when things aren't based around E, A, or C. I don't entirely know why, but 9 times out of 10 I'd prefer those same exact things transposed 1/2 step in either direction. I think that's the main reason I basically never play in standard tuning, more so than any "heaviness" added by tuning down.


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## akinari (Feb 15, 2014)

The way I see it, it's not how you tune, but how you use it. For almost any given tuning, you can find a band that uses it and aren't heavy at all, and one that's super duper heavy. Take dropped D for example. Foo Fighters use it... not insanely heavy. Discordance Axis used it... jesus christ.


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## fps (Feb 15, 2014)

There are good reasons for using different tunings that aren't to do with "heavier", it gives a different feel, and not necessarily just about attempting to increase the brootz.


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## DarkWolfXV (Feb 15, 2014)

Down tuning makes everything heavier, period. However in most of todays metal music production is what matters the most. If you're like BoO and highpass your guitars at like 150hz "for maximum sonic clarity" or some other bullshit, Drop G won't help you. Compare their breakdowns and breakdowns of Struc/tures, for example (the has G as their lowest string just like Born of Osiris). Breakdowns on Divided By hit you harder than any BoO breakdown, because the album is produced incredibly well and cleverly uses intentional clipping to make it even heavier. Compare:

at 2:12


at 2:07

Note: I like both bands, not trying to bash BoO


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## wankerness (Feb 15, 2014)

I think downtuning only makes you heavier when you take into account the bass pitches, thus I still think Chaosphere is the heaviest meshuggah album since most of it is that Bb on the bass, while most of the newer albums don't go lower than the F that's a fifth above that! So there's like, some kind of diminishing returns where the 8 string bands often sound less heavy cause the band as a whole is no longer going any lower than a standard tuned band. Bands like say, Vildhjarta or recent SYL/DT where everyone's downtuning to G or something DO sound really, really heavy to me. Bands where the guitar passes up or becomes equal with the bass and they then are playing only down to a low E don't. And I'm not a very big fan of "bass drops" in metal, it doesn't sound heavy to me, it's just a fun sound effect (ex Truth by Devin Townsend or a couple places in Skeksis or w/e).

But yeah, if you play the exact same riffs down a fifth or whatever they'll basically always sound way heavier in the lower version. IMO. I'm a gigantic opeth fan and spent countless hours transcribing their riffs cause I love them so much but I never thought they sounded very heavy compared to the likes of SYL - Skeksis or whatever.


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## arielmarx1014 (Feb 15, 2014)

I wholeheartedly agree with your comments. I feel some are tuning down for the sake of it...bc it's cool and trendy..


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## secondsun22 (Feb 15, 2014)

"Is there no standard anymore?"


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## MJS (Feb 16, 2014)

Even Paul Gilbert's tuning low now. His new sig model is kinda bulky looking.


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## lucasreis (Feb 16, 2014)

Of course it does!! Look at Dino, he's way heavier now than he was when he only played sixers. Stephen Carpenter is really heavy as well. lol 

ps: J/K


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## -42- (Feb 16, 2014)

The thing is, once you have tuned down past a certain point the notes your playing become indistinguishable to the average listener, especially if you're playing quickly and palm muting a lot (which - let's be real - is the road most metal musicians take). Band A's sick-bro-core-breakdown is not suddenly heavier than Band B's sick-bro-core-breakdown because Band A tunes a whole step lower. Equating tuning with heaviness is tantamount to equating the rims on your car with what girls think of you or your choice of underwear with job interview success. Maybe you care about these things and they make you feel more natural/comfortable but the majority of people really don't.

Bottom line - if you ask me - if you want to get heavy, practice with your band more. Practice until you guys are tight as f_u_ck, put in the hours and you will hear the results. Learning to work with your drummer, your bassist, your vocalist and whoever else is in your band will make you better when you're writing, it will make you better on stage. Too many guitarists make the erroneous assumption that _they_ are the source of heaviness, but heaviness (like any emotional/musical message someone tries to convey) is a function of the entire band, not just one player. The amps, guitars, and tunings you use are all tools, and they will only produce the results you want (be they heaviness or something entirely different) if you can learn how to use them.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 16, 2014)

Dynamics are a big deal
If you want your uber lowness to have impact *you can't use it all the time*
Tone has to 'work' with the tuning and writing style

Also, for the beard to enhance your tone, it must be full and thick, none of this 'I-forgot-to-shave-for-a-day-in-a-half' BS. lol


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## DoomJazz (Feb 16, 2014)

My  without looking at the rest of the thread.

Heaviness is a tonality, not a pitch. The opening to Family System by Chevelle is forever one of the heaviest things, and it's because the bass and guitar mixture is just spectacular.


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## MrPowers (Feb 16, 2014)

Personally, I think certain tunings do have a heavier sound when comparing the same riff in those different tunings. Riff X played in Drop D doesn't sound quite as heavy as it would if it were in C, B, or Bb. C doesn't sound as dark as B or Bb. On the flip side, Riff X sounds far too muddy in anything below Ab.

The problem is there are so many factors that go into that that it's impossible to tell what is affecting it. Taking Bass and band out of the equation; you still have string gauge, tension, type, pick thickness and type, the guitar itself and the amplification. Playing Riff X again: through a Marshall DSL it sound extremely heavy in C, but sounds like total mud in A.

Long story short, if you have the right equipment and the right style, yes down-tuning can make you heavier. If you don't have the equipment or the style for it, then it will make no difference.


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## Kaickul (Feb 17, 2014)

It's all boils down to personal preference, there's are a ton of heavy stuff written in standard. Dynamics plays a big role.


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## lemniscate (Feb 17, 2014)

It's all about tempo. Super downtuned guitars, can only be played slower, because the end result is rumble and mush. I tune to A# standard on my 7, C#, and D# on my 6's. 

Extreme down and drop tuning, is purely a crutch. Most of the time, you'd get a better tone using a bass guitar.


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