# Which Arpeggio/Chord Is This?



## mm66554 (May 29, 2012)

Hi guys, my theory knowledge is limited to keys...


```
E-11-8-----------------------------8-11--
B------9-------------------------9-------
G--------11-8/5-----------5/8-11---------
D---------------6-------6----------------
A-----------------7-6-7------------------
E----------------------------------------
```
 
The notes are: D#, C, G#, F#, D#, E

I tried to use major chord relations (I, bII, III etc...) but my brain began to overheat, then tried to figure out the key and gave up after ten minutes.

My question is, aside from the name of this chord, how would one go about "reverse engineering" something like this so they know the theory behind it?

Problem is I can think of some nice licks by ear but am never sure what they are exactly, unless they can fit easily into some type of key (heck I even find harminic minor challenging as I'm not always sure which note is the raised seventh).

Is there some trick to figuring these things out? My way is basically all relative i.e. all chords from major chords, all keys from Am/Cmaj, which causes me to improvise in "real time" rather than using predetermined patterns, it can kill your brain sometimes. Thanks.


----------



## celticelk (May 29, 2012)

Look at it this way: where are the obvious arpeggios, and what do they tell you about the possible keys? I see a couple that are indicative: the notes on the B and E strings form a G# major arpeggio (G#-B#-D#), and the swept section on the A, D, and G strings forms an E augmented arpeggio (E-G#-B#). The presence of an augmented triad suggests that the prevailing tonality is not a mode of the standard major scale, but more likely one of the harmonic or melodic minor modes. If you take G# as the root, then the remaining notes look like Mixolydian except for the E: D# is the 5th, C/B# is the 3rd, F# is the b7, and E is the b6, or b13. I'd call this a G#7b13 arpeggio; its parent scale is Mixolydian b6, the fifth mode of C# melodic minor.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 29, 2012)

You have G# B# D# F#, G#7, which is the prevalent harmony. That E, though, strikes me as being part of a different chord: either E, B#, or A, the first two of which are related to G# by chromatic mediant and the third as a bVI in the key of C# major. Regardless, the E isn't too important - you could harmonize it many ways or not at all - this chord is G#7, no question. celticelk suggested that it's some G# mixolydian b6 thing, and it might be, but I encourage you to think more in terms of what the chord's function is and not depend on scale name hocus pocus. This is one of the few ways I contextualized your pattern:







(Erratum: the chord I have labeled as bVI&#8710; should be bIII&#8710;.)

The E natural in the first and second measures are treated as non-harmonic tones, as is the F double-sharp in the penultimate measure. If I tried to analyze that entire passage as belonging to a single scale, we'd have C# D# E E# F# Fx G# A A# B B#, which is just one note shy of a complete chromatic scale. Play a chromatic scale and see if it sounds anything like the passage (It doesn't, and no, taking D out isn't going to change that.). Rather, at this point I'm going by two things: chord function and modal color. And truthfully, the only modes you're hearing in my interpretation are C# major and C# minor, with a tiny hint of C# lydian at the very end. I'm not going to say that it's in C# lydian for more than three notes, though.


----------



## Waelstrum (May 29, 2012)

^I wouldn't even say that there's really any C# minor, because that bIII isn't emphasising a minor feel. I'd just call it C# major and call it a day.

As for the chord, I'll agree that the E doesn't serve much harmonic function, and that is indeed G#7. If you want the E in there, though, it's G#7b13, which works very nicely as a dominant function of C# minor.


----------



## Trespass (May 30, 2012)

Emaj9#5.

Played over different bass notes, you could say it's:

E - Emaj9#5 (functions as a Emaj7)
F# - F#9 #11 b13 (functions as a F# dominant)
Ab - Ab major b13 (functions as a Abmaj7)
G - G13 b13 (functions as a G dominant)

and so on. You can run this exercise (putting bass notes) under any pitch collection. 

I use this exact voicing on C and F# dominant chords as a tritone substitution, moving into Bm or Fm chords (especially as a passing chord or anticipation of the IVm chord in a minor blues).


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 30, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> ^I wouldn't even say that there's really any C# minor, because that bIII isn't emphasising a minor feel. I'd just call it C# major and call it a day.



Technically speaking, only the final chord suggests any C# major tonality. The fact that the first chord is in a tonally ambiguous area, and is a major triad at its base, may suggest that the overall tonality is C# major. A major tonality may be felt throughout due to the immediate departure from V to C# minor's relative major, E. But the reality is that it's only C# major in the last two measures. Given a little more harmonic context, the middle measures are happily at home in C# minor.






(I changed the key signature to get rid of unnecessary accidentals, but it also reflects a minor interpretation of the modality.)


----------



## celticelk (May 30, 2012)

Trespass said:


> Emaj9#5.
> 
> Played over different bass notes, you could say it's:
> 
> ...



A very good point, and I agree that learning to play a chord over a different bass note to produce a more complex harmony is an essential skill for more advanced players. (Aside: this is an excellent reason for owning a basic looping pedal or an EHX Freeze - it makes it *very* easy to experiment with superimposing chords over different bass notes in a solo practice context.) That said, if someone hands me a staff with A-C-E-G written on it and asks "what is this?", my first thought is not "well, played over an F bass, that's Fmaj9" - my first thought is "Amin7." This is a slightly more complex case, but not much. The opening G# major triad establishes that tonality pretty strongly in the absence of any other harmonic context; played solo this morning, the whole thing seemed to want to resolve on the G#, even in the midst of the augmented triad.


----------



## celticelk (May 30, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> You have G# B# D# F#, G#7, which is the prevalent harmony. That E, though, strikes me as being part of a different chord: either E, B#, or A, the first two of which are related to G# by chromatic mediant and the third as a bVI in the key of C# major. Regardless, the E isn't too important - you could harmonize it many ways or not at all - this chord is G#7, no question. celticelk suggested that it's some G# mixolydian b6 thing, and it might be, but I encourage you to think more in terms of what the chord's function is and not depend on scale name hocus pocus.



Agreed that the dominant function is the most important datum, but it can't *hurt* to think about the accompanying scale; as Trespass pointed out, that can lead to identifying the chord that arises when placing this arpeggio against other bass notes from that scale, which could lead to other useful applications.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (May 30, 2012)

celticelk said:


> Agreed that the dominant function is the most important datum, but it can't *hurt* to think about the accompanying scale; as Trespass pointed out, that can lead to identifying the chord that arises when placing this arpeggio against other bass notes from that scale, which could lead to other useful applications.



I totally agree with you. However, that's the approach that you're going to hear from every other guitarist: these notes are in this scale, so therefore this is from this scale. I feel a responsibility to point out a more universal method, even if it is more involved. If I see a dominant seventh chord, my immediate thoughts aren't "mixolydian", they're more along the lines of "let's see where this is going, but probably a dominant function". Given new information, my inclination is to analyze it on its own grounds rather than to try matching it to what I already know. Of course, I'm not going to reject the thought that there's some mixolydian thing going on in the OP, but being so specific is a good way to paint oneself into a corner. The simplest solution is that it's a dominant chord and that the E is, for the most part, irrelevant, maybe suggesting C# minor. We don't know because there is no context for it, and that a wide variety of potential contexts exist. G#7 is merely more versatile than G# mixolydian b6.

Edit:

This is an excerpt from a Haydn piano sonata. The first two complete measures (that is, excluding the anacrusis) have some chromaticism that I want to look at.






We're coming from an F chord in first inversion, then we get what looks like F#m in first inversion on the last eighth note of the first bar. That leads into a first inversion Gm on the downbeat, then that ascending figure that goes G A Bb C# D F# G. Some might see this and assume it's some kind of scale. If I plug those notes into this site, I get nothing - it's missing some kind of E. I'm going to imagine that there is an Eb in the collection, since there is an Eb in the key signature. Plugging an Eb into that website give me these options:



> D Byzantine - 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
> D Double Harmonic - 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
> G Hungarian Gypsy - 1 2 b3 #4 5 b6 7
> D Hungarian Gypsy Persian (Which one is it?!) - 1 b2 3 4 5 b6 7
> ...


That would be all fine and good, particularly if Haydn was thinking any of those things. Alas, I guarantee that he wasn't thinking of some heptatonic scale that Nile uses all the time. Just look at the notation - there's a big mama G minor arpeggio (Google "Mannheim Rocket") with these tiny grace notes a half-step below each note in the arpeggio. All that's important is G Bb D, and the other notes (F# A C#) are merely decorative non-chord tones. Now, we have an interesting case. If we go back to the previous measure and look at that F#m in first inversion, the voice leading suggests the same sort of thing: non-chord tones leading to Gm from a half-step below. I know that some people will be pissed off now if I say that the F#m in first inversion is not F#m in first inversion at all, and not even a chord at all, but rather some chromatic passing tones that have nothing to do with the harmony. There are no exotic scales at play, not even parallel harmonies. This is why I divested myself of the "G# mixolydian b6" answer - as soon as you start considering every single tone, you limit your options. There's no D Hungarian Gypsy Persian Minor #11 b5 bb4 #9 going on, it's simply a G minor triad.


----------



## Trespass (Jun 1, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> I totally agree with you. However, that's the approach that you're going to hear from every other guitarist: these notes are in this scale, so therefore this is from this scale. I feel a responsibility to point out a more universal method, even if it is more involved. If I see a dominant seventh chord, my immediate thoughts aren't "mixolydian", they're more along the lines of "let's see where this is going, but probably a dominant function". Given new information, my inclination is to analyze it on its own grounds rather than to try matching it to what I already know.



I did all of my classical theory, have studied jazz functional theory and non-functional harmonic theory. At this point, I feel that what functions are the structures and pitch collections themselves.

If I play anything confidently that naturally has a strong "harmonic signature" I can get away with playing anything. Voicing things in 4ths (the color of 4ths is stronger than it's strict harmonic function) as well as second inversion major triads are two common structures used to play melodic figures regardless of what's going on underneath.

Whole tone and diminished arpeggios (diminished and DimMaj7) are also highly recognizable pitch collections, to the point that the structure of either those obscures the melodic content being played.

This is exactly how substitutions like Giant Steps subs and larger non-functional subs work. *Understanding forward motion* is what allows one to execute and resolve them in a rhythmic sense, as well as placing chord tones (substituted or background) on downbeats.


To relate to what was said above:
What matters are the colors and harmonic strength of the structures (voicing, or placement of single note lines in rhythm) and 
Diatonic scales, Pentatonic scales, four note chords, three note upper structure voicings, voicing in 4ths/5ths are all pitch collections and structures to draw from.

It ultimately allows you to simulate tension and resolution without requiring the V-I relationship.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 1, 2012)

Trespass said:


> I did all of my classical theory, have studied jazz functional theory and non-functional harmonic theory. At this point, I feel that what functions are the structures and pitch collections themselves.



The number of harmonically unique situations in music is staggering, maybe infinite. I'm not prepared to assume that one situation dominates all others. Not every pitch is a chord tone, nor is every pitch diatonic to a given collection. Hell, not all music has scales, and even less of it has vertical harmony. Every new piece of music one listens to possesses the potential to offer new information to the listener. With that in mind, I will never think of the figure in the OP as an Emaj9(#5) [or G#7(b13), or even as G# mixolydian b6] on the basis of a stray E that appears to be an appoggiatura of some sort. There are simply too many situations that can account for that E. Meanwhile, we have three octaves of G#7. Call me crazy, but I feel very safe saying that it's plain old G#7 plus a non-essential tone. One can certainly manufacture a passage in which that E does come into play as a root note (halfway through the pattern, apparently), but like I said before, we need context for that, and we have a three octave arpeggio of G#7 to deal with in the meantime.



> If I play anything confidently that naturally has a strong "harmonic signature" I can get away with playing anything. Voicing things in 4ths (the color of 4ths is stronger than it's strict harmonic function) as well as second inversion major triads are two common structures used to play melodic figures regardless of what's going on underneath.
> 
> Whole tone and diminished arpeggios (diminished and DimMaj7) are also highly recognizable pitch collections, to the point that the structure of either those obscures the melodic content being played.


I'm confused here. Why would harmony obscure melody?



> This is exactly how substitutions like Giant Steps subs and larger non-functional subs work. *Understanding forward motion* is what allows one to execute and resolve them in a rhythmic sense, as well as placing chord tones (substituted or background) on downbeats.


I have a bit of terminology nit-picking to do. As far as I know, substitutions only exist in a functional context. Otherwise, how can you say that something is standing in for something else if either or both of those things does not fulfill a function to begin with (i.e. non-functional harmony)?



> To relate to what was said above:
> What matters are the colors and harmonic strength of the structures (voicing, or placement of single note lines in rhythm) and
> Diatonic scales, Pentatonic scales, four note chords, three note upper structure voicings, voicing in 4ths/5ths are all pitch collections and structures to draw from.
> 
> It ultimately allows you to simulate tension and resolution without requiring the V-I relationship.


This is a phrasing issue, and one that is perhaps beyond the scope of this current discussion (falling into that "these are the notes but we don't know what they're doing yet" area). I'd love some insight from the OP regarding his intents, but he hasn't returned to us yet.


----------



## mm66554 (Jun 4, 2012)

The only intent I have is to proceed this with a diminished lick, but no plan for rhythm sections yet, which is why I posted the initial question. Following the G# mixolydian b6 scale I get these chords which seem to work OK:


```
E-2----------------
B-x----5----4------
G-5----5----5------
D-6----6----6------
A-6----6----6------
E----------------5-
B----------------1-
```

So what you're saying is, rather than seeing this as a G# mixolydian *b6* it's better to see it as C# major/A# minor/G# mixolydian with the E being an "outside" note similar to when using chromatics, or a mini key change within that measure?

Also how do you figure out the chords G# major (G#-B#-D#) and E augmented chords (E-G#-B#) from within this arpeggio? I mean, do you memorise the notes of each chord you learn, memorise the fret placements, or use some type of interval trick? This is kinda my problem, I was trying to figure out which chord the whole group of notes belonged to (and got nowhere), rather than seeing the arpeggio as constructed using two separate chords.

Like I said the only chords I know are major chords with a natural root. All other chords I either construct by ear or build from these major chords. For example with G#7 I would take G major (G-B-D), shift it up a semitone (G#-B#-D#) then add a minor 7 (G#-B#-D#-F#), am I doing it wrong/inefficiently? Thanks.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 4, 2012)

mm66554 said:


> The only intent I have is to proceed this with a diminished lick, but no plan for rhythm sections yet, which is why I posted the initial question. Following the G# mixolydian b6 scale I get these chords which seem to work OK:
> 
> 
> ```
> ...



Mind giving us that diminished lick? (Also, fixed the tab to make the fingering less awkward.)



> So what you're saying is, rather than seeing this as a G# mixolydian *b6* it's better to see it as C# major/A# minor/G# mixolydian with the E being an "outside" note similar to when using chromatics, or a mini key change within that measure?


No. Consider the totality of the phrase. If I'm playing G C D G, it would be silly to think that I need to play G major, C lydian, D mixolydian, G major, because the entire thing is in G major. Now, that's easy to say because I've given enough context to know that we're in the key of G major. So far, you've given us one chord, and that's not enough to establish either tonality or modality. I'll show you what I'm seeing here:


```
E------------------
B-[COLOR=Yellow]7[/COLOR]----[COLOR=Yellow]5[/COLOR]----[COLOR=Yellow]4[/COLOR]------
G-5----5----5------
D-6----6----6------
A-6----6----6------
E----------------5-
B----------------1-
```
The yellow is the moving line. Somebody's going to come in and say that those chords are G#7/D#, E+&#8710;/D#, G#/D#. I'm going to point out that it is a shaky assertion to say that, the harmony is completely static and that the E is functioning as a passing tone between F# and D#, which are chord tones in the same chord. All you have is G#7. The presence of E suggests that we're in C# minor (C# D# E F# G# A B), if anything. The other respondents are getting G# mixolydian b6 because they think dominant seventh chord = mixolydian, and E is a minor sixth away from G#. I'll point out that it could be G# phrygian dominant as well (G# A B# C# D# E F#). Nobody's taking into account those are both modes of the melodic and harmonic minor, respectively, and that the melodic and harmonic minor are 'temporary scales' in traditional harmony, used to strengthen the pull from the dominant chord (V7) to the tonic chord (i). Going back to C# minor, if C#m is the i chord, can you guess what V7 is? Yep. G#7. The last 'chord' in your example (the major sixth, B#-A), if considered a part of the same chord, gives us a 3 and b9, making it G#7(b9). This is all part of the dominant chord in C# minor. But still, you've only given us one chord, and all I can offer is some educated conjecture.

The only time that I think "this is X scale" is when it's fairly obvious. My note choices are dictated by chord tones and voice leading 100% of the time, as having an incorrect tone over a chord is going to result in shit even if they are in the same 'scale'. Don't think scales, think chord tones, and when you want to play something between the chord tones, let your ear guide you. All this time, we've been talking about a G#7 chord and an E. Would it have been different if that E were E#? Try it out. They each have a different characteristic and can potentially fit in the same space, but only one will be appropriate in a given context.



> Also how do you figure out the chords G# major (G#-B#-D#) and E augmented chords (E-G#-B#) from within this arpeggio? I mean, do you memorise the notes of each chord you learn, memorise the fret placements, or use some type of interval trick? This is kinda my problem, I was trying to figure out which chord the whole group of notes belonged to (and got nowhere), rather than seeing the arpeggio as constructed using two separate chords.


Intervals and chord structure.



> Like I said the only chords I know are major chords with a natural root. All other chords I either construct by ear or build from these major chords. For example with G#7 I would take G major (G-B-D), shift it up a semitone (G#-B#-D#) then add a minor 7 (G#-B#-D#-F#), am I doing it wrong/inefficiently? Thanks.


This is a good way to go. You just need to do it all the time and learn to mentally order a voiced chord into a root-position tertian chord. For example, you want to look at this...






... and realize that it is just a voicing of this:






Another thing I recommend is to take your major triad formula (1 3 5) and see what happens when you raise or lower those tones. If we go back to G#, lowering the third (B#) to a b3 (B) gives us a G#m triad (G# B D#). Now we have 1 b3 5. If we lower the fifth (G#) to b5 (G), then we now have a G#° triad (G# B D, 1 b3 b5). If we go back to G# and raise the fifth (D#) to #5 (Dx), then we now have G#+ (G# B# Dx, 1 3 #5).

When you start raising or lowering the root, you're actually changing the name of the chord. However, it's good to experiment with that in order to see what sort of relationships you can make. Changing G# B# D# to A B# D# (enharmonically A C Eb) gives you an A° triad. Lowering G# to G (G C Eb) gives you a Cm triad. Just play around with moving tones chromatically up and down and figure out what's going on by fitting it into a tertian framework - it's good mental exercise.


----------

