# Left hand 3rd and 4th finger independence problem



## Santuzzo (Aug 11, 2011)

Hi,

I have some problems when using my 3rd and 4th finger successively, like in any patter that goes 134 or 431 (numbers=left hand fingers in this case).
This is becoming especially a problem when playing say the Paul Gilbert lick eg 10-12-13- on B string, then 10 en e string, and 13-12-10 on b-string.
No matter how hard I practice this using my 3rd and 4th finger, I'd always find it much easier to finger a lick like this with my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd finger.

It's not that I generally have problems using my pinky (finger combinations of 124 work well), the problem only occurs when 3rd and 4th finger need to work together.

In order to solver this I been trying to use that exact finger combination a lot, and whenever I play 3notes on a string, each 2 frets apart, and it is higher on the neck (say somewhere around 8the fret and higher) I use my 1st, 3rd and 4th finger.
STILL, it seems it will never get as good as when I use finger combination 124 or 123. I guess it's just the anatomy of my hand, nothing I can do about it?

Does anybody else have this issue? And advice, suggestions,opinions, thoughts?


Thanks,
Lars


----------



## toiletstand (Aug 11, 2011)

all the time. i damaged my 4th finger when i was younger and it hasnt healed properly so i t can be very frustrating at times. i just keep practicing until i get it right.


----------



## Static (Aug 11, 2011)

This is what helped me out.You should be able to pull off those PG licks with better co-ordinance once you get done with that lesson.


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 11, 2011)

do some runs slowly up and down the neck controlling your movement (so your pinky doesn'y fly) using only your ring and pinky for starters.


----------



## Santuzzo (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks for your input, guys ! I appreciate it!

MY problem is not lack of exercises for my 3rd and 4th finger, I know tons of exercises for that and I have been practicing those A LOT, the point I was trying to make, though, is that to me it seems no matter how much I work on that, the 3rd and 4th finger combination or 134 will never feel as comfortable and will always feel more difficult as for instance using 123 or 124.

Anybody else having this ?


----------



## Maniacal (Aug 11, 2011)

How do you find using all 4 fingers, for example: 1234, 4321, 1324 etc

What does your third finger do when you play those type of patterns? Does it tend to follow your fourth finger?


----------



## steve1 (Aug 11, 2011)

I believe the 3rd and 4th finger share a tendon, that's why it can be difficult to use them in succession. Keep practicing with those fingers, building some pinky strength may help too


----------



## Santuzzo (Aug 11, 2011)

Maniacal said:


> How do you find using all 4 fingers, for example: 1234, 4321, 1324 etc
> 
> What does your third finger do when you play those type of patterns? Does it tend to follow your fourth finger?



some of the 4 finger combinations I find difficult, especially 4321 and 4312.

yes, I think my 3rd finger has a tendency to follow the 4th finger.
but I still have my fingers pretty close to the fretboard, I don't lift them up way too much or something.

I noticed this: when I put my left hand finger on a table (as if I was plying piano) and I keep all fingers down and lift up each finger individually, the 3rd finger is the one I can lift up the least (maybe only 1cm or so).


----------



## Static (Aug 11, 2011)

Not trying to sound like a "know it all" but I just think you need to put in a little more practice into you 3rd and 4th finger, those 2 fingers are quite the tricky bastards.You know what exercises to work on already, so i suggest you just practice more,its bound to fix your problem.PG does a ton loads of licks with his pinky (134, 124 , 1234 iacross different string etc) so just try to learn some of his licks here and there to break out from your regular exercise licks to get your 3rd and 4th fingers used to different positions and gain independence.just my 2 cents.


----------



## Solodini (Aug 11, 2011)

Santuzzo said:


> I noticed this: when I put my left hand finger on a table (as if I was plying piano) and I keep all fingers down and lift up each finger individually, the 3rd finger is the one I can lift up the least (maybe only 1cm or so).



That's the shared tendon for you. It's unavoidable. You just need to do things like that to build flexibility and control. That's an instance where practise is the only real key.


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 11, 2011)

Solodini said:


> That's the shared tendon for you. It's unavoidable. You just need to do things like that to build flexibility and control. That's an instance where practise is the only real key.



We need to find a way to implant an extra tendon on a single hand...


----------



## Konfyouzd (Aug 11, 2011)

Santuzzo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have some problems when using my 3rd and 4th finger successively, like in any patter that goes 134 or 431 (numbers=left hand fingers in this case).
> This is becoming especially a problem when playing say the Paul Gilbert lick eg 10-12-13- on B string, then 10 en e string, and 13-12-10 on b-string.
> ...


 

For 134 patterns I use my first 3 fingers only. But I did learn them initially using fingers 1, 3 and 4 which ultimately led to my abillity to use my pinky really well. When I was first learning this all I did (that I know of) was keep trying it all day every day... Practicing as though my life depended on it... One day it just wasn't difficult anymore. 

So my advice would be to only use the pinky when absolutley necessary or to try to keep on as you have but try to learn some runs that require that you mix up your fingerings a bit... Learning to jump to that fingering from any other fingering will help you for sure.

Personally... the only time I use my 4th finger now is in 124 patterns, 135 patterns, 4 note/string stuff or during sweep picking.


----------



## Maniacal (Aug 11, 2011)

I know there are millions of sequences, but I would say 2 of the most useful for this would be:

1 4 3 4
and
4 1 3 4 3 1

Try to combine legato and alternate picking, for example 4 times with legato 4 times with alternate picking.

As long as you aren't really exaggerating the movements with your 3rd finger then I would say its just down to practicing.....a lot.

4 note per string scales should also help strengthen and coordinate the 2 weaker fingers.


----------



## Santuzzo (Aug 11, 2011)

Thanks a lot guys ! I appreciate your advice and suggestions!

I will just keep practicing it but when in a practical situation I see that 123 works much better than 134, I will go with that!


----------



## Neogospel (Aug 11, 2011)

Take a look at John Petrucci guitar discipline, it helped me a lot on that matter


----------



## Sephael (Aug 11, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> We need to find a way to implant an extra tendon on a single hand...


two extra fingers while we are at it?


----------



## Waelstrum (Aug 11, 2011)

A bass player I know said that in order to increase finger independence, he does this exercise: play a chromatic scale slowly, but keep each finger fully pressed on the fret that it just played until it has to move on. (I don't think I'm wording this very well .)

That is, when you play the first note, you have the first finger on fret 5 (for example). Then on the second note you have the second finger on fret 6 and first finger on fret five. On the third note you have the third finger on fret 7, the second finger on fret 6 and first finger on fret five. On the fifth note you have the first finger on fret 4, the fourth finger on fret 8, the third on fret 7 and the second on 5, etc...

The important thing is to do it slowly at first, making sure you don't lift any finger before its time. It really helps to get more control over the fingers.


----------



## Santuzzo (Aug 12, 2011)

Waelstrum said:


> A bass player I know said that in order to increase finger independence, he does this exercise: play a chromatic scale slowly, but keep each finger fully pressed on the fret that it just played until it has to move on. (I don't think I'm wording this very well .)
> 
> That is, when you play the first note, you have the first finger on fret 5 (for example). Then on the second note you have the second finger on fret 6 and first finger on fret five. On the third note you have the third finger on fret 7, the second finger on fret 6 and first finger on fret five. On the fifth note you have the first finger on fret 4, the fourth finger on fret 8, the third on fret 7 and the second on 5, etc...
> 
> The important thing is to do it slowly at first, making sure you don't lift any finger before its time. It really helps to get more control over the fingers.



Thanks !

I know that exercise, and I agree it helps a lot!


----------



## Hollowway (Aug 12, 2011)

Haha, I am the exact same way! I posted a thread on here a year or two ago asking the same thing. And someone remarked about the shared tendon. I definitely know it's a physical issue, not just a lack of practice, because on my right hand I can bend my pinky to my palm and keep my third finger mostly in place, but on my left hand I can't move my pinky toward my palm without my third finger following 6-8mm behind. Through practice I've managed to get to this to the 6-8mm so I can play independently (since you only need to really be 1mm away to not fret the string), but I still hate that I have the trouble. Now, I always am asking other people if they can bend their pinkies down independently, and it seems like everyone else can but me. So, at least I know one other person afflicted with this!


----------



## CRaul87 (Aug 12, 2011)

Santuzzo said:


> Hi,
> 
> I have some problems when using my 3rd and 4th finger successively, like in any patter that goes 134 or 431 (numbers=left hand fingers in this case).
> This is becoming especially a problem when playing say the Paul Gilbert lick eg 10-12-13- on B string, then 10 en e string, and 13-12-10 on b-string.
> ...


I have had the EXACT SAME problem when I first tackled some PG lick...
I don't want to tell you exactly what I did to overcome this problem because for starters it would take me too long to write and second if you were to do what I did to overcome it then you would probably end up with some serious hand injury unless you have extremely good form.... sitting in classical position and with the thumb never ever going past the middle point of the neck....
Best advice I can give you is this:
1. Practice it every day!!! no mater what!! every day!!
2. Read 1
3. Read 2 

all the best m8


----------



## starslight (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't think there's anything wrong with fretting 1-2-3 on a single string, as everybody's hands are different and the same fingerings aren't going to be comfortable for every player. 

But try practicing some things where you have no choice but to use your third and fourth fingers consecutively, maybe something where you need each to fret a separate string. I've been working on a tune so brutally difficult I'll likely never get it up to speed, but it sure has been giving my weaker fingers (and my inside-picking technique) a workout.

Here's a bit from "Fracture" by the mighty King Crimson, it's straight 16ths in 4/4 time:


```
1       2       3       4         1       2       3       4
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|-----------------------------5---|
-4-------6-------4---6---4---6---|-4-------6-------4-------4-6---6-|
---5-3-5---5-3-5---5---5---5---5-|---5-3-5---5-3-5---5-3-5---------|


 1       2       3       4         1       2       3       4
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|-----------------------------5---|
-4-------6-------4---6---4---6---|-4-------6-------4-------4-6---6-|
---5-3-5---5-3-5---5---5---5---5-|---5-3-5---5-3-5---5-3-5---------|


Up to D#.
 1       2       3       4         1       2       3       4
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|-----------------------------5-7-|
-6-------8-------6---8---6---8---|-6-------8-------6-------6-8-----|
---7-5-7---7-5-7---7---7---7---7-|---7-5-7---7-5-7---7-5-7---------|


Up to higher C#.
 1       2       3       4         1       2       3       4
---------------------------------|-5---------------------------------|
---------------------------------|---6--------------------------8-10-|
-6-------8-------6---8---6---8---|-----6---------------8---8-10------|
---7-5-7---7-5-7---7---7---7---7-|-------7-----7---7-9---9-----------|
---------------------------------|---------6-8---8-------------------|
---------------------------------|-----------------------------------|


Up to higher C#.
  1         2          3        4          1         2          3        4
--9---------11---------9---11---9--11---|--9---------11---------9-----------------|
----10-8-10----10-8-10---10--10--10--10-|----10-8-10----10-8-10---10-8-------8-10-|
----------------------------------------|-----------------------------10-8-10-----|
----------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
----------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|


 1         2          3        4         1         2          3        4
-9---------11---------9---11---9--11---|-9---------11---------9----------------9-|
---10-8-10----10-8-10---10--10--10--10-|---10-8-10----10-8-10---10-8-8-8-10-12---|
---------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
---------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
---------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|
---------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------|


Up to D#.
 1         2         3       4          1         2         3          4
-11--------13--------11--13--11--13---|-11--------13--------11-----------11-13-15-|
---12-10-12--12-10-12--12--12--12--12-|---12-10-12--12-10-12--12-10-12-14---------|
--------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------|
--------------------------------------|-------------------------------------------|


                                        Faster Tempo (about double)
 1          2          3       4          1     2     3     4
-17---------19---------17--19--17--19---|-21--------------------|
---18-16-18---18-16-18---18--18--18--18-|-----------------------|
----------------------------------------|-------2-----2-----2---|
----------------------------------------|-------2-----2-----2---|
----------------------------------------|-------0-----0-----0---|
----------------------------------------|-----------------------|
```

I don't know why anyone would want to do that to themselves (especially at 135 BPM), but it does sound pretty badass. I won't say it's more fun than running exercises, because it isn't fun, but it's definitely more..._something_.


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 12, 2011)

Wow, that is a sweet run, I gotta try this. Great due to all the string switching and stuff too.


----------



## shreddanson (Aug 15, 2011)

here's some single string hexatonic-type exercise I came up with to improve strength in my 3rd and 4th fingers, if you're bored with the whole chromatic thing. 

|-1-3-5-2-4-6-1-3-5-3-5-7-2-4-6-3-5-7-2-4-6-4-6-8
|----------------------------------------------------
|----------------------------------------------------
|----------------------------------------------------
|----------------------------------------------------
|----------------------------------------------------

and continue that pattern up to the 12th fret, then do the same pattern on every other string. I generally play this along to a metronome, 16th triplets starting at 60 bpm and working up to 120 bpm. I would also start out playing each group of notes separately, 8 times each before you do the above exercise, so play 1-3-5-2-4-6 separately 8 times, 1-3-5-3-5-7 separately 8 times, 2-4-6-3-5-7 separately 8 times, and so on and so on. I found this helped improve my strength and independence greatly. 

Hope this helps! Sorry if it's a little confusing, my theory is a bit rusty so I just teaches em's likes I plays ems


----------



## EdgeC (Aug 16, 2011)

From a lesson I had with Francesco Artusato:

Put all your fingers on the fretboard (doesn't matter where) with one finger per fret.

E.g.

Finger: ...1...2...3...4
e--------7--8--9--10-----
B-------------------------
G-------------------------

Now while keeping your fingers all down (as if you were playing a note) take your third finger off and hammer on and pull off the string below. So for the example above finger 3 would be playing :

B---9p0h9p0h9p0h9p0h9p0h9----

Remebering all of your other fingers are still on the e string. The idea is to get all of your fingers as strong and as independant as finger 1. To compare, do the same thing with finger 1 and you'll see this is pretty easy but finger three and four not so easy.

Do it for a minute or so and you'll start to feel the burn. After a few weeks you'll notice the strength and independance developing in finger 3 and 4.


----------



## Santuzzo (Aug 16, 2011)

Thanks a lot guys for all these cool exercises and the advice. Much appreciated!


----------



## stuglue (Aug 17, 2011)

Here's something that I learnt from a billy sheehan video. You can do this with or without your guitar. He calls it his recovery muscle. 
Basically take your index on your fretting hand and put the tip of it on the nail of your pinky, lightly push down it. Now with your pinky resist and push your pinky away forcing your pinky upwards. This should develop your recovery muscle


----------



## Duelbart (Aug 17, 2011)

^ I just tried it and in no fucking way I can put my index finger on my pinky's nail without manual help ._.


----------



## CRaul87 (Aug 17, 2011)

^I second that...


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 17, 2011)

Duelbart said:


> ^ I just tried it and in no fucking way I can put my index finger on my pinky's nail without manual help ._.



I can only do it on my picking hand


----------



## stuglue (Aug 18, 2011)

Oops my bad, I meant take your picking hand index finger and push against your pinky on your fretting hand. Apologies


----------



## Guitarchitect (Aug 19, 2011)

A lot of good suggestions here. I'll try to add one more.

Years ago, I read an interview with George Lynch where he talked about playing 2 and 3 note per string scales as a warm up using on the 2nd 3rd and 4th fingers of his fretting hand. Try it on the upper frets (12th fret and higher) where the frets are closer together and try working your way down into the lower registers. Will definitely help your fret hand stretch and independence!

(Note - if it hurts - stop immediately - there's no benefit to playing through pain)

Just remember: hammer on volume comes from the speed the fingers strike the string not the force

It's important to land on your fingertips whenever you can as well and with the minimum amount of hand tension. 

You may want to check this out as well (all left hand taps for coordination)

Glass Noodles &#8211; adapting a Philip Glass arpeggio approach to guitar « Guitarchitecture.org


I hope this helps!


----------

