# 8 String Quandary



## Eric Christian (Apr 15, 2012)

The dilemma is this. For the first year or so I had an 8 String I couldn't find anyone to jam with so I patiently practiced a lot at my pad and kept looking for folks. My rig sounds real good at bedroom volumes. Very crisp and tight. So now I finally hooked up with a killer drummer and we've been practicing for the last couple of months. Its basically just generic Death Metal but the trouble is no matter what I do the F# string sounds muddy and lacks clarity when I turn way up to practice with him. 

My guitar is a stock RGA8 and running into a Vypyr 120 tube head (in case you're wondering I had a 6505+ head but it was a lemon so I'm shopping for another one or a 6534+) into a full 6505 stack. The F# string is a .074 gauge. I think the tension is good. Its funny because the B string is a .060 and it sounds wicked and very crisp with lots of crunch and clarity. I already know what everyone is gonna say so I guess please confirm that I need to replace the stock pickups... yeah right?

So then the second part is the second guitarist is coming online and he has a 6ixer. He tunes it to B Standard so we transpose together pretty well with that setup. However, he can't track the Doom parts where I utilize the F# string which is just ok but it would sound better doubled I think. Question is, should I just forgo the whole 8 string thing and go down to a 7even because next we have a bass player coming and he tunes to B Standard as well?


----------



## Bigfan (Apr 15, 2012)

Eric Christian said:


> *stock RGA8*



Well, there's your problem. Get some proper pickups in there. EMG's are pretty cheap .


----------



## squid-boy (Apr 15, 2012)

Throw some DiMarzio D-activators in there.


----------



## Danukenator (Apr 15, 2012)

Get SOME of Da BaReKnuCKLES!!!1!

While I am joshing ya, I do suggest better pickups. The Stock Ibby pickups are usually pretty hated upon. While BKP is an option, I've never played one and I don't like hype when I haven't heard the noise. 

For suggestions to look at (I'm just listing, I don't have experience with these but they are popular.)

Lace Aluma-X or Death Bars. Both have gotten some great tones.

Dimarzio D-Activators. Also, popular pickups. One of the few affordable passive choices. The new RG2228A includes them.

Dimarzio PAF. These are new, just out. I have no idea about the voicing but they could be great or they could be the wrong idea for Death Metal. PAFs aren't usually considered Death Metal pups but I've seen it done.

Bareknuckle. They have several metal voiced pups. The owner is great with responding to emails and providing advice on which model. There is also a thread about BKP in the dealers thread, the dude provides advice and is a USA based seller.

EMG. 808X seem to be the way to go. 

Blackouts. I'll be honest, I've never even read into these. I don't like actives.

Lundgred. Very expensive. Meshuggah use them. 

Merlin. I only list them because they exist. I've heard sketchy things about them so I can't recommend them.


----------



## Gregadethhh (Apr 15, 2012)

Danukenator said:


> Dimarzio PAF. These are new, just out. I have no idea about the voicing but they could be great or they could be the wrong idea for Death Metal. PAFs aren't usually considered Death Metal pups but I've seen it done.



PAF8s very versatile and clear, plenty of definitions in the lows, definitely my favourite 8 pickups (that I've played anyway).


----------



## Baelzebeard (Apr 15, 2012)

Make the stock pickups go away. Seriously anything is better.

I went with d-activators and coundn't be happier.

Try to put parts together with the other guitarist that are complimentary if you can't double the same notes. I've been working in a similar situation with a guy who plays a six in standard E. It sounds monstrous when we do it right, so it's worth experimenting with.


----------



## iron blast (Apr 15, 2012)

Beyond Creation have a 7 string and 8 guitarist with a bassist tuned in b and it seems to really work well for them. So I would continue on your 8.


----------



## Setnakt (Apr 15, 2012)

I say play what you want, maybe layer the 6 string as a lead instrument on top of whatever the 8 is doing on the low parts, or make him get a baritone, or a 7 or 8 eventually to tune to your low string. Only takes away the impact for live performance - in the studio you can double track the 8 string.

You could put a bass EQ or something in front of the amp, suck back some of those lows, or at least control how hard you're hitting the amp (backing off or boosting depending on your preference).

There are several relevant Bareknuckles, voiced differently depending on what you're going for and how you want to get there.


----------



## Explorer (Apr 15, 2012)

Eric Christian said:


> The F# string is a .074 gauge. I think the tension is good. Its funny because the B string is a .060 and it sounds wicked and very crisp with lots of crunch and clarity.



Just noting that your B string has almost 20 pounds of tension, and your low F# less than 16. Bumping that .074 to a .080 will get you to 18.5 lbs.

Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that lowest frequency you're trying to reproduce an F#1 at 46.249, and doesn't the 6505 have a decent frequency reproduction range down to 70 HZ? Replacing your pickups won't make your cabinet work any better down there, will it? 

Maybe I misunderstand.


----------



## JPhoenix19 (Apr 15, 2012)

Explorer said:


> Maybe I'm wrong, but isn't that lowest frequency you're trying to reproduce an F#1 at 46.249, and doesn't the 6505 have a decent frequency reproduction range down to 70 HZ? Replacing your pickups won't make your cabinet work any better down there, will it?
> 
> Maybe I misunderstand.



Isn't the perceived clarity from the low notes more a matter of the overtones and not the fundamental frequency? It seems like a cab with a frequency response down to 70 Hz should have no problem reproducing the overtones of the low F#.

Also, replacing the pickups with a set that more accurately reproduces the full frequency spectrum isn't a bad idea and can help- but not solve the problem of muddy tone.


----------



## Explorer (Apr 15, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> Isn't the perceived clarity from the low notes more a matter of the overtones and not the fundamental frequency? It seems like a cab with a frequency response down to 70 Hz should have no problem reproducing the overtones of the low F#.



If that were true, then why aren't more bass cabinets which don't really have a frequency response covering the range of the instrument, but which have great reputations? Or, for that matter, more guitar cabinets which have a good rep but don't cover the full frequency range of an electric guitar?

Since I go for a flat response full range solution, I don't have to worry about such things, but I always wonder when I read topics where someone is talking about how their "sound" doesn't sound good in the areas in which their reinforcement wasn't designed to go. That seems like it should be obvious, but maybe I'm wrong.


----------



## Necris (Apr 15, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> Isn't the perceived clarity from the low notes more a matter of the overtones and not the fundamental frequency? It seems like a cab with a frequency response down to 70 Hz should have no problem reproducing the overtones of the low F#.
> 
> Also, replacing the pickups with a set that more accurately reproduces the full frequency spectrum isn't a bad idea and can help- but not solve the problem of muddy tone.


Even though the overtones are more apparent on lower notes the fundamental still plays a large part in the sound that comes out of the speaker, if the speaker breaks up trying to reproduce the fundamental then you will get mud.


----------



## Ishan (Apr 16, 2012)

Bump that 74 to a 80 (that's what I use right now 9/42 + 60 + 80 tuned a half step down on a 28.75" scale) and I'd change those pickups by a Aluma X-Bar in the neck and a Death Bar in the bridge.


----------



## JPhoenix19 (Apr 16, 2012)

Necris said:


> Even though the overtones are more apparent on lower notes the fundamental still plays a large part in the sound that comes out of the speaker, if the speaker breaks up trying to reproduce the fundamental then you will get mud.



True. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not exactly a necessity to have speakers that can strongly reproduce the fundamental frequencies when the first octave of that fundamental (around 81 Hz for F#1) is usually just as strong. So what I'm saying is that given the cab in question goes down to around 70 Hz, with some EQ tweaks one can cut the fundamental to the point it supports the tone without being muddy, and boost the first octave (I forget the actual term) at around 81 Hz.


----------



## Necris (Apr 17, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> True. The point I'm trying to make is that it's not exactly a necessity to have speakers that can strongly reproduce the fundamental frequencies when the first octave of that fundamental (around 81 Hz for F#1) is usually just as strong. So what I'm saying is that given the cab in question goes down to around 70 Hz, with some EQ tweaks one can cut the fundamental to the point it supports the tone without being muddy, and boost the first octave (I forget the actual term) at around 81 Hz.


But that's not the way overtones work, if the F#1 fundamental is equal to 81 hertz (I'm not sure that's correct) it's first overtone F#2 is 162 hertz, an octave above it and about half as loud. If you put a boost at 81 hz you are boosting the fundamental, the only way to boost the overtone directly would be to boost ~162 hz. The next highest overtone after 162 hz wouldn't even be an F# it would be C# since the next overtone is an octave and a fifth up from the fundamental, and ~1/4 as loud.


----------



## rick0link (Apr 17, 2012)

+1 on the D-Activators. I have one in my 8 and i and very happy. I also run my 8 through a bass rig. Since i am a bass player first, i have all of the gear. For distortion, i use a Boss Bass Overdrive which produces great tones. I dont lose anything when i palm mute and play breakdowns because of all the elevated low end from the bass amp. My 8 also has a 30" scale and is tuned down one whole step to EADGCFAD with 10-76 gauge strings.


----------



## Setnakt (Apr 17, 2012)

The fundamental at E1 is actually going to be something like 40 hz. The lowest note of a standard tuned guitar is E2 at around 80 something hz.


----------



## JPhoenix19 (Apr 17, 2012)

Setnakt said:


> The fundamental at E1 is actually going to be something like 40 hz. The lowest note of a standard tuned guitar is E2 at around 80 something hz.



Yup. F#1 = about 46.25 Hz

I recall seeing charts (applicable to bass) showing what's going on in regard to frequency when a note is plucked. In the charts I saw, the first octave harmonic was right around the same amplitude as the fundamental- not half. It's worth mentioning that the charts I saw were for a fretless and an electric upright bass- so it's possible a fretted guitar could be a little different.



Necris said:


> But that's not the way overtones work, if the F#1 fundamental is equal to 81 hertz (I'm not sure that's correct) it's first overtone F#2 is 162 hertz, an octave above it and about half as loud. If you put a boost at 81 hz you are boosting the fundamental, the only way to boost the overtone directly would be to boost ~162 hz. The next highest overtone after 162 hz wouldn't even be an F# it would be C# since the next overtone is an octave and a fifth up from the fundamental, and ~1/4 as loud.



If that were true, then the fundamental of the low F# string would hit right around the resonance frequency of the cab (the 5150 cabs have a resonance freq of about 75Hz IIRC)- emphasizing it. If that were the case, it wouldn't seem like that cab would have any trouble at all with low F# assuming it was EQ'd properly.



OP, did you tweak the EQ settings at all when you started playing at full band volume?


----------



## Daken1134 (Apr 17, 2012)

RGA8 pickups are HORRIBLE. my other guitarist has one and we threw Dactivators in there and it sounds awesome. also... dont talk smack about the vypyr120 head, ive been using it live since we started playing shows and its AMAZING, best live head ive ever owned


----------



## Necris (Apr 17, 2012)

JPhoenix19 said:


> If that were true, then the fundamental of the low F# string would hit right around the resonance frequency of the cab (the 5150 cabs have a resonance freq of about 75Hz IIRC)- emphasizing it. If that were the case, it wouldn't seem like that cab would have any trouble at all with low F# assuming it was EQ'd properly.
> 
> OP, did you tweak the EQ settings at all when you started playing at full band volume?


Now that I took the time to look it up (I get lazy at 1am ) the frequency of the Low F# (F#1) would be 46.249 hz, well outside of the cabs frequency range, the first overtone would be 92.498 hz (F#2), which is within the frequency range of the cab. 
As you ascend the series of overtones each overtone decreases in amplitude relative to the fundamental. Overtones are also a contributing factor to the overall timbre of any instrument.
 
this is a good video to demonstrate that since it shows the amplitude of each overtone above the fundamental. For example the 2nd overtone (the octave) is shown to be exactly half as loud in amplitude the fundamental, the third overtone is one third as loud, etc etc.

The main point I was trying to make though is that boosting at the frequency of the first overtone will do little to nothing to clear up the sound of the fundamental, it will merely make the overtone more apparent. 
The bottom line is still that if the fundamental is causing the speaker to break up no amount of boosting done to the overtones it creates will clear up the overall sound of that note.


----------



## Explorer (Apr 18, 2012)

You know, though, there are products for bass like the [sfx] Thumpinator and microThumpinator which filter out frequencies below 20hz, in order to clean up the sound by getting rid of what can't really be heard but which makes the amp sound crappy. 

And, drawing on that, it's possible that the amp is reproducing the lowest frequencies, and that the cabinet sounds okay doing those frequencies at lower sound levels, but the speakers can't handle them at higher levels. Rather than rattling those speakers, maybe a cut-off filter would do the trick. You won't have the lows, but you also won't have the bad sound caused by running those lows thorugh a cabinet which can't handle them....


----------



## Faine (Apr 18, 2012)

Damn, there is a lot of useful info in this thread.. I gotta do more homework on frequencies, tensions, lbs and stuff lol


----------



## stigmatodiaboli (Apr 18, 2012)

i had a lot of problems with my low note clarity when i got my live rig going, for me it was EQ and gain problems (as well as putting an .80 gauge string on). i find that with my 8 strings, i can turn the gain way further down and still get the bite i want, and the added clarity of the low notes. some distortions mask the low end IMO.


----------



## Benny Boy (Apr 18, 2012)

I play a 7 with a band mate who plays an 8 on some tracks. I'm in B standard, his 8 is in B standard with a drop E.

This means he can drop in some low 5ths/octaves below me which sounds phatt.

I think if we both played 8 all the time we'd just base everything off the low string, this way we get to be more creative with textures.


----------



## Explorer (Apr 19, 2012)

Faine said:


> Damn, there is a lot of useful info in this thread.. I gotta do more homework on frequencies, tensions, lbs and stuff lol



There is definitely much to be said for understanding what is causing a given situation. A lot of the time, questions here on SS.org get answers which don't really address why there's a problem in the first place. I thought I'd shine a little light on the tension drop and the cabinet response, as no one had really mentioned those yet and they seemed even more obvious than the pickups. 

Given that the pickups had done well at lower sound levels, it doesn't make sense that the sound is crapping out at the pickup when the volume is being adjusted at the amp/cabinet... at least to me.


----------



## luca9583 (Apr 19, 2012)

Setnakt said:


> You could put a bass EQ or something in front of the amp, suck back some of those lows, or at least control how hard you're hitting the amp (backing off or boosting depending on your preference).



Using a pre eq is the magic ingredient for eliminating mud. I think to a large extent the mud comes from too many low frequencies going into the amp's preamp, which with a low F# or lower can sound like a bass through fuzz.

I tried a stock Schechter 8 through a Mark V the other day and it was super muddy..like a fuzz pedal, without any pre eq.

If you can get hold of an eq that has low and high pass filters, try eliminating everything below 100 hz and then work from there. If you go all the way up to 200 hz and eliminate everything below that you still hear the note but without the mud, so try finding the sweet spot. Also, a slight boost around the 1k region is great for getting snappy attack out of the low strings.

Regarding the fundamental frequencies of the notes and the cabinet response i don't think there's any problem there. For example, on a 6 string, when you do a low whammy dive and you go past E1, you can hear it clearly through a standard guitar rig.

In a mix, all the low end in the guitars normally gets rolled off below 100 hz anyway, but an extra eq after the preamp and before the power stage can be useful for boosting the "thump" area of the low end, especially if the amp's bass and resonance frequencies are tuned to the low mid area.

Regarding tension and string gauge..it's always a matter of personal preference, but the lighter you can make them, the better clearer and snappier the tone.

A great thing to do for experimenting with gauges is to order a whole range of custom strings from La Bella, which are pretty affordable, and try everything from 74-80 and see which sounds the best.

Hope this helps


----------



## Explorer (Apr 20, 2012)

luca9583 said:


> Using a pre eq is the magic ingredient for eliminating mud. I think to a large extent the mud comes from too many low frequencies going into the amp's preamp, which with a low F# or lower can sound like a bass through fuzz.
> 
> I tried a stock Schechter 8 through a Mark V the other day and it was super muddy..like a fuzz pedal, without any pre eq.



More accurately, I believe that mud at the low end is from frequencies which a particular cabinet/speaker combo can't handle, not the amp/pre. A simple mind experiment is to imagine hooking up your home stereo to either a pair of tiny Radio Shack speakers or to loudspeakers will some serious woofers. The larger speakers won't sound bad, but the tiny ones will... so it's not about the amp's limitations. 

Some of the best amps I've tried with 8-strings are acoustic amps and keyboard amps, but I"m doing my distortion and effects prior to amplification. However, my point is that the combo amps with full ranges of sound reproduction didn't have a problem with an ERG. 



luca9583 said:


> If you can get hold of an eq that has low and high pass filters, try eliminating everything below 100 hz and then work from there. If you go all the way up to 200 hz and eliminate everything below that you still hear the note but without the mud, so try finding the sweet spot.
> 
> ...Regarding the fundamental frequencies of the notes and the cabinet response i don't think there's any problem there. For example, on a 6 string, when you do a low whammy dive and you go past E1, you can hear it clearly through a standard guitar rig.



So, eliminate the first two harmonics from all notes from G1 and lower by cutting below 100HZ? Or, by cutting everything below 200HZ you can eliminate the first two harmonics from your G2 and lower? That doesn't sound like a winning plan for performance, at least if one is considering using an ERG to the fullest. 

Of course, it might work for you, especially if you only want your ERG to sound in less than its full range. I'm not sure if that's what the OP was looking for, though.


----------



## luca9583 (Apr 20, 2012)

Explorer said:


> So, eliminate the first two harmonics from all notes from G1 and lower by cutting below 100HZ? Or, by cutting everything below 200HZ you can eliminate the first two harmonics from your G2 and lower? That doesn't sound like a winning plan for performance, at least if one is considering using an ERG to the fullest.



Fair point, but a little experimentation with filtering out some low end (maybe even just a dip in the 100-200hz area) before a preamp can really tighten up the sound. Filtering below 200hz is too much..it was more of a suggestion to sweep around those low frequencies to find what sounds best.


----------

