# How to create bass line that DO NOT follow guitar?



## thedarkoceans (Sep 15, 2011)

yo guys.i love bass lines that dont follow guitar.how do i create them? could i play for example a fifth lower or higher and so on?


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## highlordmugfug (Sep 15, 2011)

thedarkoceans said:


> yo guys.i love bass lines that dont follow guitar.how do i create them? could i play for example a fifth lower or higher and so on?


If you did that, you'd just be playing a melody and still following them. 

Practice counterpoint.


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## ivancic1al (Sep 15, 2011)

^ 

Kind of in the same vein, but sometimes when the guitars play in a lower register than the bass for a bit, it sounds really cool. 

One of my current faves is Joe Lester from Intronaut. That man knows how to stay in the pocket when it's needed and come out to the front of the mix with the guitars backing him. Genius. 

2:34 ish for jazzy part:




4:12 in this one, you get the idea...


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## simulclass83 (Sep 15, 2011)

You gotta imagine what it sounds like before you write it.


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## simulclass83 (Sep 15, 2011)

Here's an example from my band, if you listen from 1:57 onward the bass does a lot of variation. It's basically just following the chords that the guitar is playing in a slower, melodious way.


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## codync (Sep 15, 2011)

Be sure to check some of Dan Briggs of BTBAM's basslines. He uses counterpoint in a fantastic and engaging way. A lot of his contrapuntal flavor comes from Bach, especially his cello suites.


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## Waelstrum (Sep 15, 2011)

Alberti bass is a good one if you don't mind sounding Mozart-eque.


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## MassNecrophagia (Sep 16, 2011)

Ignore the guitarist, play a different song. Eveyone knows the rhythm section is the part of the band that matters. As long as you and the drummer sound like you're on the same page, it's the guitarist's fault.
But really, go listen to some jazz, go practice some jazz, go BE some jazz.


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## SirMyghin (Sep 16, 2011)

Go listen to some of the isolated tracks from the Who, with only Entwistle playing. He was always pretty buried low on the albums, but damn they are good lines.


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## Explorer (Sep 16, 2011)

Or, even outside of the brilliant John Entwhistle, listen to the people who inspired you to start this topic. It's clear you have an idea of what is possible, and it sounds like you know this because you've heard it. 

Once you've identified those who started you thinking this way, then try to identify those who do what you're hoping, and then learn from them.

BTW, congratulations on taking this step. A lot of people have never even considered the possibility, and so you are ahead of the game....


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## SirMyghin (Sep 16, 2011)

Explorer said:


> BTW, congratulations on taking this step. A lot of people have never even considered the possibility, and so you are ahead of the game....



This is a good one, somewhere along the 80s this fell out big, in the 70s it was starting to disappear, oddly the 50's and 60's had a lot of basslines that were not just rehashed guitar. The more time goes on, the more the bassist is the guy who couldn't play guitar good enough but friends let him stay in the band  

I have literally had bands refuse me for not following along directly. Fun times that, I try to not rehash a part between instruments, if they are locked in rhythm, they will not be locked in note, and so on. So many available paths, if nothing else you can harmonize the way 2 guitars should (they also should not be playing the same thing). It helps to pick up the bass from a perspective of adding something to the song, not just writing a guitar line and then playing it in lockstep lower. That is a starting point I guess, throw in fills, smooth transitions. Then start expanding along chord tones, ala the 'walking bassline'. That is all that is, your chords, spelled, mostly. Then try some non chord tones, 4ths, leading tones (that goes back to fills, or the current chorD), and the like.


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## Dayn (Sep 16, 2011)

Counterpoint is good. What I've learned from the music I listen to is to make the bass, along with percussion, the bedrock of the rhythm. I use it to hold a progression together as such. A guitar may be playing a riff, but don't follow the rhythm and bass note. I find I learn from example, so I'll post two examples of 'Sky Rail' from Sonic Adventure 2:












Both are in Dm. In the first example, you can see the progression goes 1-b7, or D-C, but the bass doesn't follow the guitar, rhythmically or note-for-note (except the last half which is for effect). The beat goes *1*_-2-3_ *4*_-5-6-7-8_.

The bass plays 1-5-1 before going b7, 5-b7-5, while the guitar goes 1-b7. I find the bass in this part reinforces the chord progression. Although the note durations aren't identical, both the bass and guitar have shifted to C on beat *4*, and I think that the bass lingering on that C reinforces it further. So the bass is 'following' the guitar in terms of chord progression, but the note durations are different. On the off-beats, an A, the fifth of D, is thrown in. I find throwing in fourths and fifths on off-beats are very safe; they're nice neutral tones to bounce around on when you're not grounding the progression.

In the second example, the guitar plays A-C-D-G|A-Eb-D-A. The bass plays A-G-A-G|A-G-E-G. So:

A-C-D-G|A-Eb-D-G
A-G-A-G|A-G-E-G

The bass reinforces the G to A movement, but the notes differ in between. In the first bar, G in the bass is the fifth of the C being played above it. Ditto for A and the D above it. That's incidental, but you can see how simple the bass movement is compared to the guitar in the first bar; it's a simple interval of a major second. I find that to be another safe interval to use. The fact that the bass in the middle is playing the fifth of the notes in the riff above it is harmonic icing on the cake, and very safe. And the second bar... that Eb is an accidental, so the bass plays an E below that Eb-D just for effect. It's not a very 'safe' option, but I quite like the effect it has with the above Eb-D movement. Nice dissonance, but I digress.


...So yeah, I like to treat the bass as the foundation of music that carries the entire progression. Then for variation I may lightly sprinkle it with fourths, fifths, major seconds and minor sevenths often on off-beats for flavour as they're generally very safe to do. All I've learned is from studying the bass in the music I listen to. Hopefully this helps if you can decipher it.


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## anne (Sep 16, 2011)

Write the bass before the guitars, such that the bass ideas are developed enough to stand on their own. Make it something that will keep your mouth busy if you were to sing/hum along with it, something lyrical, not unlike a vocal line or guitar solo.

3:44+ is my example.


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## vansinn (Sep 17, 2011)

Listen and watch vids closely with all kinds of music, focus on the bass, start humming along (I'm a tenor so can hum down there), and expand on this by playing airbass whenever.
Soon you'll invent your own bass lines - often more interesting than the original 

Apart from this, I'm sure there is theory covering composing and arranging (I so need to study theory).
I also agree with the above method of writing bass before guitar.


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## SirMyghin (Sep 17, 2011)

anne said:


> Write the bass before the guitars, such that the bass ideas are developed enough to stand on their own. Make it something that will keep your mouth busy if you were to sing/hum along with it, something lyrical, not unlike a vocal line or guitar solo.
> 
> 3:44+ is my example.





I generally do the exact opposite, laying down my concrete rhythm tracks on guitar  Then as I have already established the rhythm, I don't need to worry about it as much on the bass. Not a terribly rock approach, but neither is treating bass like a real instrument. This way I can fully expound on what I want to bass to do, as I am not required to cover many bases (basses?). That one is a good example of a simple stand alone groove though. 

Then again, most folks here are primarily guitarists, likely changes the perspective a lot. I love playing with highly rhythm oriented guitarists for this reason.


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## kung_fu (Sep 17, 2011)

I'll be back to post on this later, but for now let me just say that i approve of this thread. Part of the reason i'm not so much into metal anymore is the lackluster rhythm sections (bass and drums) and i'm primarily a _guitarist_  . Part of the problem with most metal bands these days is that the entire band is locked into the kick drum so most of the time a band consisting of two guitars, bass, and drums will essentially all be playing the exact same part. Basically, the whole "copy the guitars" thing is now rampant among bass players _and _drummers. When used sparingly, this approach can have a powerful effect but tends to lose its charm when it is done in every. fucking. song . I'll try to dig up some good examples from my music, mention guys to listen to etc.

For now, I'll also add that i'm a bass _after_ guitar guy for the most part...explanation forthcoming


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## broj15 (Sep 17, 2011)

just play any note in the same scale and see what happens. or base a cool tapping part around a chord you guitar play is using and go with that. There are any number of things one could do. My favorite trick is to follow the guitarist for half or 3/4 of the measure and then break away and do a cool melodic bass fill/ riff.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 17, 2011)

You could write a completely different riff with the same key and/or tonic but in the same time sig (or different if you're into that sorta thing or nuts like me ). Or even with a different key or tonic (again if you're crazy)

I would love to have a band that takes this to the extreme in terms of different keys/scales, timing, rhythm and accents. But all these things would be pre-decided/composed/whatever you wanna call it.

Something like tech-death, free jazz, and Stravinsky in a blender.

Even if you kept the time sig and key the same, having three unique riffs (Gtr1, Gtr2, Bass) interacting would be amazing.

The 'different key' thing could work out if it's closely related-like playing some thing in F or G while the rest of the song is in C.


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## Explorer (Sep 18, 2011)

Hopefully this won't be considered off-topic.

A lot of bands don't get the idea of _space_.

There's different ways of defining space: differences in rhythm, tone, whatever. However, unless you have those differences, and variations thereof, your music is going to sound flat, regardless of the genre.

Here's an example of good, and then better. I love this particular example, as you can see how much things improved by not having the dogpile. (Sorry, but I couldn't find a YouTube example of the demo track, so you'll have to listen from MySpace.)

Demo of "Feels Like the First Time" by Foreigner



BTW, imagine how both of these would have sounded if the bass had been in lockstep with the guitar part, instead of providing a solid locus around which the rest of the song could pivot.

If band members are opposed to something exciting, as opposed to boring, I'd say that you might look elsewhere if making a living is one of your hopes with music....


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## nickgray (Sep 18, 2011)

Counterpoint. One thing that really annoys me about rock/metal is that nobody really uses bass guitar as a proper instrument. Bass guitar is just this "thing" in the background. Go listen to some Bach or something, after a while you should start getting the idea of how to put several semi-related voices together in an orderly fashion.


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## BucketheadRules (Sep 18, 2011)

Honestly, I know the song is fucking awful but LISTEN TO THAT BASS:



Hell yeah.

And I can play it


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## SirMyghin (Sep 18, 2011)

Jethro tull should probably be also added to the list if you want to hear some good ones. Particularly when Hammond was in the ground.


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## AxeHappy (Sep 19, 2011)

I approve of this thread. I often strive (and often fall short) to make the bass play something interesting and unique when I write songs for the band. More so than when the Bassist does. 

It is worth pointing out though, that everything locked together and playing the same thing is also a very powerful effect.


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## cGoEcYk (Sep 20, 2011)

It's easiest if you write stuff from the bass up. It's hard to get through in most band situations but if you are bent on being a writer and play your cards right it can be done (tip: form an alliance with your drummer). I wrote most of the music on my last album. This only works if you are on par or ahead of the rest of the musicians in your band cause it's already an uphill battle with all these egos and shredders and all. Like if you are a bassist struggling to follow the guitar riffs, level up your playing first.

3:30-on in this song is a good example. On the ending jam I told the guitarist- "Follow dis, I know it's hard since it's 7/8 and u kind of a dummy.. but I got lots of time and the drummer already knows what up"

http://soundcloud.com/dr_thunda/left-brain-solipsism-kali


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## Bloody_Inferno (Sep 20, 2011)

Great thread. 

Also regarding the concept of "space", Miles Davis also made an interesting comment that goes along the lines of...

"If you can't think of anything to compliment the part, shut up!"



The chorus is so powerful with very little bass going on.


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## cGoEcYk (Sep 20, 2011)

kung_fu said:


> Part of the problem with most metal bands these days is that the entire band is locked into the kick drum so most of the time a band consisting of two guitars, bass, and drums will essentially all be playing the exact same part. Basically, the whole "copy the guitars" thing is now rampant among bass players _and _drummers.


I feel you on this. The trouble is, just too much sonic space and intensity is already taken up in modern styles... there isn't much room for other parts. It's a band decision to write any different, it would probably sound less "heavy."

I think occasional good examples of the bass adding different stuff in modern metal can be found on Gojira - Ocean Planet. Keep in mind they are just in drop D.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XoUbeKKlo8k&feature=related (1:20)


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## Explorer (Sep 20, 2011)

In my opinion, if you take up every bit of space, you have less options for intensity. The following shows how to build intensity through holding back on tempo, and by leaving space.



I'll agree that modern metal has lost that skill set....


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## paleonluna (Sep 20, 2011)

For metal, studying counter point and jazz is an okay idea, but that is a huge investment of time and boring ass shit. If you are stuck in a rut of laity like most of us, definitely learn all of ALASKA by BETWEEN THE BURIED AND ME. There is a tab book for it, my friend learned it and after that his bass parts destroyed our compositions and brought them to a whole new level. Check this song we recorded a bit ago, the bass part owns.

Insubstantial Legacy Demo by realmsofprypiat on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free


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## yingmin (Sep 20, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Hopefully this won't be considered off-topic.
> 
> A lot of bands don't get the idea of _space_.
> 
> There's different ways of defining space: differences in rhythm, tone, whatever. However, unless you have those differences, and variations thereof, your music is going to sound flat, regardless of the genre.


I totally get that, and it's something I'm extremely guilty of. I have, over the course of the years, developed a playing style like a heavier Alex Lifeson, where I'm using a lot of big, complex chords and ringing open notes. The problem with this is that I developed that style largely without having a Geddy of my own to keep in mind when I'm writing, so that my guitar parts are super dense, and there's not much room left for anyone else. Add keyboards and vocals to the mix, and my music can quickly turn into a thick fog of notes. I've been working a lot on holding back lately.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Sep 20, 2011)

yingmin said:


> I totally get that, and it's something I'm extremely guilty of. I have, over the course of the years, developed a playing style like a heavier Alex Lifeson, where I'm using a lot of big, complex chords and ringing open notes. The problem with this is that I developed that style largely without having a Geddy of my own to keep in mind when I'm writing, so that my guitar parts are super dense, and there's not much room left for anyone else. Add keyboards and vocals to the mix, and my music can quickly turn into a thick fog of notes. I've been working a lot on holding back lately.


 


There's always that argument that too much instrumentation can sound sterile and lifeless. Indeed less is more, but it depends on where the context of less lies. 

The general rule of thumb is that the bigger the musical ensemble, the smaller the parts for each individual instrument becomes. A big band or an orchestra doesn't sound sterile regardless of the large ensemble. It's because they're playing a bunch of small but cohesive parts. 

There are many ways how super dense guitar parts can still fit into the ensemble. In fact, with such super dense guitar parts, IMO the bass can become the melodic backbone, pushing the guitars into more textural territories. Rush and King Crimson are masters of this. 

Other good examples:





Both have very dense guitars/keys, but the bass keeps everything together and yet sounds very simple overall. 

Naturally, a musician will write pieces based on his chosen instrument, and it's a hard rut to get out of. Electric guitarists in particular (metal), especially when they written material is almost exclusively on riffs. It's a challenge, but it's very rewarding once one writes as a musician and start thinking how all the instruments will fit into the written material. 

But if you're in a thrash band... follow the guitar.  But even then that doesn't happen all the time either. 

Come to think of it, I'm quite fortunate that I started my musical life as an organist...


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 23, 2011)

Another idea for composition is to treat the instruments in the same way a "chamber" piece would. Chamber pieces involve relatively few instruments-as opposed to giant orchestras, and are written to have each instruments unique qualities be of roughly equal importance.

I remember trying to star a band and having lots of trouble cause of this, I wanted the guitars/bass/drums/vox to be all complementing, supporting and contrasting each other rather than bass/guitars doing essentially the same thing, and the drums locking in with that for the most part. With the vocals being the only "different" thing most of the time.

I simply treated the rock ensemble as just another group of instruments to write for, rather than trying to copy how most people seem to write for them.


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## deevit (Sep 23, 2011)

This is exactly why I have always liked playing with only one guitarist. It just gives you more space to breathe. 

I think the best tip here is learning the basslines of the guys you like. It will probably give you some great pointers. Also, I'd suggest learning at least some intervals and stuff like that. Or throw in some triplets or something. Play different rootnotes for different chords, of stay in the same key when the guitars make chord changes (this can build up some really cool tension imo  ). 
Singing along can really help too. Just listen to your music and sing a bassline you think would work. This way you're more likely to pick some original notes, instead of the stuff you have always been playing.

And remember, there are no rules!


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 23, 2011)

deevit said:


> This is exactly why I have always liked playing with only one guitarist. It just gives you more space to breathe.


Most guitarists will insist on you following anyway though, because...



deevit said:


> And remember, there are no rules!


...they forget this nifty bit of knowledge.


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## Murmel (Sep 24, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> *Gravity PV*



Holy shit, is J grooving or what


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## deevit (Sep 24, 2011)

All_¥our_Bass;2674528 said:


> Most guitarists will insist on you following anyway though, because...
> 
> 
> ...they forget this nifty bit of knowledge.



Those guys can either give in, look for a new bassplayer of buy the beers..


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## Speculum Speculorum (Sep 26, 2011)

This is my last day of vacation. Tomorrow I have to go back to work. So know that I am taking time out of my penultimate relaxation to write this. That's how important I consider this subject to music. I am also up before everyone else at the house we are staying at, so I have some spare time.


If you are going to study counterpoint, I recommend starting from the ground up. It will be difficult. Your brain will hurt. You will have to stretch your musical mojo - big time. Study modal counterpoint (Renaissance period). Then study tonal counterpoint, starting from Baroque and working all the way through the Romantic period. Finally, gain masterful knowledge of twentieth century counterpoint including twelve-tone, serialist, pitch set, minimalist, and post-minimalist techniques. By the time you are done, you will understand how important a bass part is to making or breaking good music.


_** Now on why there isn't much emphasis on counterpoint in popular music (of all varieties, metal included) **_


I might get very much flamed for saying this, but then again I didn't originally say it, so whatever. I did part of my studies in composition and counterpoint under Dr. Samuel Adler, one of the students of Aaron Copland, Paul Hindemith, and Walter Piston. All of Dr. Adler's instructors were great early 20th century contrapuntalists. 


Dr. Adler, himself, is a musical machine and a staunch contrapuntal compposer. He's published over 400 works in his lifetime. He can write a full fugue based on a melody you hum to him, with several developments of the subject, within a half-an-hour. He once wrote an award-winning piano piece (around 17 minutes in length) in less time than it takes to play it. I believe he told me he wrote it, in it's entirety, in 10 minutes. His statements on music come with serious authority.


Adler and I were conversing about the decline of serious music and the rise of popular music one afternoon. In his view of things, of which I tend to agree, "popular" (non-art) music is lacking in complexity and doomed to mundanity because "the best paid and most popular musicians in the world are also the lowest educated 0.5% of musicians in the world."


Counterpoint is the most difficult aspect of music composition, period - it doesn't matter what style you are writing in. Unless you possess the brain of Mozart, writing convincing interdependent melodies requires hours of hard study followed by long periods of trial and error. Great counterpoint is the highest form of musical mastery and you can only expect it from the best educated musicians in the world. In addition, it is difficult to write functional counterpoint in jam-based scenarios. _Great counterpoint_ generally requires a certain amount of planned and etched execution. 


There are a lot of fakers in the fringes of popular music: half-hearted throwbacks to Classical and Baroque sounds or attempts at dissonant avante garde texture. Beware these stumbling blocks. If you can, get training from a person in your area. Even a summer or winter studying counterpoint will make you a more hardened and seasoned musician.


If this is TL&DR - careful counterpoint requires balls. Most musicians don't have balls. Get balls. Study counterpoint.


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## anne (Sep 26, 2011)

omg.


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## thedarkoceans (Sep 26, 2011)

i heard "dune tune" by Mark King,not really metal at all,but pretty great.


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## Solodini (Oct 6, 2011)

yingmin said:


> I totally get that, and it's something I'm extremely guilty of. I have, over the course of the years, developed a playing style like a heavier Alex Lifeson, where I'm using a lot of big, complex chords and ringing open notes. The problem with this is that I developed that style largely without having a Geddy of my own to keep in mind when I'm writing, so that my guitar parts are super dense, and there's not much room left for anyone else. Add keyboards and vocals to the mix, and my music can quickly turn into a thick fog of notes. I've been working a lot on holding back lately.



I've been guilty of that, as well. Trying to be concise has been my task, of late.

On topic, be James Jamerson. If that fails then try taking the guitar riff and take out some of the notes until you can see a smooth path of motion. For instance, if you had the following sort of riff, you could simplify it for bass (for resonance's sake, not difficulty's sake) to







That's bit better suited to bass.

Now let's stick some simple 3rds, 4ths and 5ths of notes in place to harmonise it a little and straighten up the rhythm a bit.






Getting there. Let's do a similar thing to another bar of it and make the bass have a 2 bar phrase, rather than just one bar. It's started to develop a melodic voice so I've followed that a bit more here, which has led to some 2nds. They sound a bit crunchy in places but they create tension which then resolves. 






That has a fair bit more character than transposing the original riff. It's possibly not the best example but I tried to bash that together quickly.

Basically, simplify and harmonise to create a basic skeleton and then play with notes around the skeleton to create leading movement and melody.

I hope that helped a little.


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## eaeolian (Oct 6, 2011)

From a writing perspective, rather than a bassist perspective, there's always two songs I think of when I think of bass and motion in rock songs:



Phil holds it together when the guitars are doing their thing, provides some excellent supplemental motion in spots, doubles the guitars in the right spot, and provides the drive for the song. (I picked this live one because the bass is really loud and he and Downey are locked together, not because of the awesomeness of the guitar performance. Sykes screws it up.  )



There's the right amount of counterpoint (in a rock context), some nice fills (especially the ones that suggest the vocal line), and good motion with the drums - but the bass is still with the guitars when needed. This kind of bass playing in rock music is almost a lost art.


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## JosephAOI (Oct 7, 2011)

I'm a guitar player so this could either be a really good or bad example coming from another perspective but I've always liked any music a lot better when the bass is playing something different than the guitar.



Starting at about :30 every instrument is doing something different.


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## MyRakeOnYourGrass (Oct 10, 2011)

Use your inner ear or music theory (whichever one you have a better command of). 

Play a section of music and then THINK the bassline in your head. (dont follow the guitar). 
Then play what you thought.. with your guitar. 


Now might be the time to study harmony.


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## Samarus (Oct 17, 2011)

Here are a couple of things that I do for Glasgow Symphony songs:

I'll start with the drum part and mute the main melody. Make sure you're in the correct key of course. Then just really listen to the accented beats and the way the spacing is on what's there. Usually, pretty tight basslines can come out this way.

Another thing I'll do is listen with the melody, put it on loop, and try to hum a part that feels right, but doesn't match what the lead instruments are doing. Of course, you are creating counterpoint by doing this, but I have always felt that what I came up with sounded a bit more organic when I did it this way, than if I were to just mess around writing something out randomly or plugging in GP or Sibelius.

Derek


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 17, 2011)

I do this constantly. None of my guitar/bass lines follow each other. It's not something I do consciously, but it's something I always do. The thing I've noticed as I listen to music is that bass seems to drive a song forward. The bass is part of the rhythm section after all. So typically I try to come up with a melody that fits but takes on a role similar to what the drums would do if that makes any sense. And I typically base my melody off an arpeggiation of whatever chord or chords the guitar part utilizes. Obviously the bass can't take the place of drums but I feel like they fill similar roles despite how different they are. I like to try and make the guitar and bass "dance" with each other so to speak.


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## robotsatemygma (Oct 17, 2011)

Look at it this way... writing a bassline for a song is similar to writing a kick ass guitar solo. It should compliment what is being played. You need to know when to stick in the pocket, when to pop out and take control. Bass is a very difficult instrument if you have a shitty sense of when and where and can't distinguish a good sense of rhythm and melody. 

Too many players wuss out and just play root notes following the guitar. These are guitarists that think bass is easy and join a band because the band doesn't need a 3rd or 4th guitarist... aka me 12 years ago lol!

When writing a line, I'll look at the chord being played and start playing around with 3rd's 5th's 7th's and if I should use extensions like 9'ths or 11'ths if I'm progressing on the root note. Then I'll compare and contrast it with the guitar and see if a sharpened or flatted note sounds good. One damn good piece of advice I picked up while playing jazz was... flatted 5th's can be your friend when playing a bassline. They have a natural tone for easy walking.


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## rbd (Nov 10, 2011)

If you want more examples to check out, try Steve DiGiorgio with Death or Control Denied. Listening the masters could give you some inspiration.


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