# Blacklisted From Ordering From Rondo Music



## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

I want to preface this thread by stating that I have *never *previously placed an order directly from Rondo Music before this incident occurred.

Recently, I saw that Rondo Music was offering a fretless classical guitar on their online store under the model name: Agile Renaissance Classical 625 EQ CUT Fretless. I don't have any extensive personal experience with Rondo's in-house "Agile Guitars" brand; and all that I remember as of right now is that Agile was visible all over the ERG world (including here on the Sevenstring forum) as an affordable option before ERGs really went "mainstream" in terms of guitar manufacturing and the big-box, off-the-shelf brands all began offering 7-string, 8-string, and even 9-string guitars in their model lineups for consumers.

The extreme, multiscale ERG stuff is not my personal cup of tea these days, but the idea of having a fretless classical has entertained me for the past few months. So, I placed an order and apparently purchased the final guitar that was in-stock.

The following day, I received an email from Rondo stating that my order was ready to ship.







But then just a few hours later, my order was cancelled and refunded due to a "stocking error".






So, someone messed up while counting and entering inventory. No big deal. It happens. We're all human here.

However, it seemed very strange to me because the Agile Renaissance Classical 625 EQ CUT model was still sitting up on the Rondo website and on Rondo's Reverb shop page as well at this point; and I had this sneaking suspicion that someone else had also placed an order at or around the same time as I placed my order, which could lead to the inventory count being off if we operate under the assumption that Rondo's two selling platforms (their website and their Reverb shop) are *not* accurately updated manually in a timely manner.

I sent Kurt Zentmaier at Rondo an email requesting clarification on the matter, and I followed-up by including a handful of screenshots of emails to verify:
- the date/time my order was placed
- the date/time my payment was sent via PayPal
- the date/time that I received confirmation of my order from Rondo along with the "Your Order Is Ready To Ship" update






I was absolutely, adamantly convinced that I had purchased the final fretless classical guitar that they had in-stock. But again, if someone had messed up while counting and entering inventory, then that's fine and understandable. It happens. Even so, just a simple clarification from the business would've been much appreciated.

A few hours later, Kurt replied with this email:






So now, I've apparently been blacklisted from being able to purchase anything from Rondo Music going forward. _"No more orders will be accepted from you."_

Given that I merely asked for clarification and sent a handful of screenshots to verify my order and my payment info (plus the date/time of both) with the hopes of making things easier for Kurt to understand, having him immediately jump to such drastic, excessive measures against me comes across as flat-out unreasonable and very poor in business ethic regarding customer service. And in all honesty, let's be frank here, this response makes Kurt seem like a complete and total dick.

As of right now, I am bummed that I've lost out on a guitar that I fairly and rightfully purchased as a consumer, especially given the fact that fretless nylon-string (classical) guitars aren't exactly an easy-to-find commodity with very, very few offerings being available on the gear market. But going forward, I am completely fine with not being able to purchase from Rondo Music since, as I prefaced at the very beginning of this post, I have *never *previously placed an order directly from Rondo Music before this incident occurred.

This behavior from Kurt just seems so bizarre and unwarranted.

So, I just wanted to share my recent personal experience as a warning and ask if anyone else here on the forum has ever received such utterly poor treatment from Kurt Zentmaier.


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## cardinal (Mar 29, 2022)

Seems weird; not sure what your entire email said. 

I suspect a lot of us gear heads have been there. I've ordered plenty of things from GC and later had it canceled because supposedly someone else bought it. What can I do? Just move on to the next one.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

cardinal said:


> Seems weird; not sure what your entire email said.
> 
> I suspect a lot of us gear heads have been there. I've ordered plenty of things from GC and later had it canceled because supposedly someone else bought it. What can I do? Just move on to the next one.


Yes, but Guitar Center doesn't randomly ban you from ever placing orders again for no reason.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 29, 2022)

Having interacted with you a number of times, and seeing how you've interacted with others on here over the years, as well as the small sampling above, I think you just come off as difficult and abrasive on the internet, which in this case was to your detriment.


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## crankyrayhanky (Mar 29, 2022)

"So, someone messed up while counting and entering inventory. No big deal. It happens. "
You say this, but continued to press on. How many times do you need to hear no deal? Did you think your screenshots would have made them audit the orders and then award you with the final guitar?

The quick ban is surprising, but I'm guessing the owner doesn't want to waste anymore time.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Having interacted with you a number of times, and seeing how you've interacted with others on here over the years, as well as the small sampling above, I think you just come off as difficult and abrasive on the internet, which in this case was to your detriment.


How is what I said abrasive or difficult, @MaxOfMetal? Help me understand here.

Also, you've pretty much only interacted with me in debate threads in the off-topic section of the forum. And those threads are *meant *to bring out the abrasive or difficult communication patterns in all of us here, right? 



crankyrayhanky said:


> "So, someone messed up while counting and entering inventory. No big deal. It happens. "
> You say this, but continued to press on. How many times do you need to hear no deal? Did you think your screenshots would have made them audit the orders and then award you with the final guitar?


I just assumed that someone probably flubbed while entering inventory numbers. But I didn't have a concrete explanation as to what happened. How is politely asking for simple clarification considered a "bad thing"? Please elaborate. I didn't press on. I merely asked what happened. That's it. As a customer, am I now allowed to know why my order was cancelled?


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## Musiscience (Mar 29, 2022)

With that level of customer service, you just dodged a bullet and better off giving your money to someone who appreciate your business.

This is Kiesel tier customer service.

Edit: you’d never see something like that coming from Sweetwater, for example.


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## mechanyx (Mar 29, 2022)

If Rondo is a low margin business (I have no clue), it may be that the calculus is it's not worth the time to deal with any situations that require time/extra work, etc. I've never dealt with Rondo or Kurt so no idea what his typical threshold for cutting someone off is. That seems like it would be the relevant missing data point here.


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## mechanyx (Mar 29, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> With that level of customer service, you just dodged a bullet and better off giving your money to someone who appreciate your business.
> 
> This is Kiesel tier customer service.


Yeah, if you are not in the wrong, then this is a good take. At least your bad experience resulted in getting your money back. Seems like a lot of the "I ordered a guitar and something went wrong" stories often don't end with the buyer getting their money back.


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## Giest (Mar 29, 2022)

Seems like an overreaction, but then again it's his business and he can do what he wants.

We can also do what we want, like spend money somewhere else. Personally I like Agile guitars for the money, but that's the catch- for the money. Don't expect the world from them in any regard.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> With that level of customer service, you just dodged a bullet and better off giving your money to someone who appreciate your business.
> 
> This is Kiesel tier customer service.


Good point. This pretty much equates to Kiesel's "the customer is always wrong" mentality.



mechanyx said:


> If Rondo is a low margin business (I have no clue), it may be that the calculus is it's not worth the time to deal with any situations that require time/extra work, etc. I've never dealt with Rondo or Kurt so no idea what his typical threshold for cutting someone off is. That seems like it would be the relevant missing data point here.


Yeah. Just immediately cut off any potential problem, regardless of who/what is at fault and how. Forget about dealing with it. If a transaction doesn't immediately go smoothly with as minimal communication as possible (because once you as the consumer communicate with the business entity, you're likely to be perceived as a "troublemaker"), then it just becomes a matter of implementing the "the customer is always wrong" mentality.



mechanyx said:


> Seems like a lot of the "I ordered a guitar and something went wrong" stories often don't end with the buyer getting their money back.


Oof... Very good point.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

Giest said:


> We can also do what we want, like spend money somewhere else. Personally I like Agile guitars for the money, but that's the catch- for the money. Don't expect the world from them in any regard.


Good point, @Giest. But I'm just a guy looking for a fretless nylon-string guitar.  Like I said in my initial post, fretless nylon-string guitars aren't exactly an easy-to-find commodity with very, very few offerings being available on the gear market. Gotta take what I can find if it interests me.


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## sleewell (Mar 29, 2022)




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## GunpointMetal (Mar 29, 2022)

Odd. If this was the entirety of your email correspondence his response seems out of character. I've owned multiple Agiles (still do) all ordered new from Rondo and customer service has been fast, responsive, and helpful even when I'm hunting down random bridge parts or asking specific finish/hardware questions.


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## CanserDYI (Mar 29, 2022)

I don't have a dog in this fight as I've never owned an Agile nor dealt with Kurt, but I do think its a bit odd that the only screenshot we don't see in this explanation is your email sent to him prior to him banning you.

I don't care if you're right or wrong, just saying, if you're trying to convince us that he's in the wrong, that email would help.


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## sleewell (Mar 29, 2022)

kurt has only been helpful and friendly to me.

there has to be more of the story that you are not sharing as this sounds extremely out of character for him and quite frankly doesn't make any logical sense at all. he has probably sold millions of those guitars by now, you don't get that far and last this long by acting as you have described.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

sleewell said:


> he has probably sold millions of those guitars by now, you don't get that far and last this long by acting as you have described.


"Millions"? Nice hyperbole.


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## Giest (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Good point, @Giest. But I'm just a guy looking for a fretless nylon-string guitar.  Like I said in my initial post, fretless nylon-string guitars aren't exactly an easy-to-find commodity with very, very few offerings being available on the gear market. Gotta take what I can find if it interests me.



Yea, that's actually a good point. I sympathize with you and I been there myself, but not much to be done about it.

For something like that I would probably just impress upon him politely how unreasonable he is being. I wouldn't apologize since I don't think you did anything wrong from what I can see, but I'd probably reach out after about a week and try to bring things back down to earth.


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## /wrists (Mar 29, 2022)

Musiscience said:


> With that level of customer service, you just dodged a bullet and better off giving your money to someone who appreciate your business.
> 
> This is Kiesel tier customer service.
> 
> Edit: you’d never see something like that coming from Sweetwater, for example.


We don't have the full context of what OP sent the store, but I agree. That's pretty disgusting customer service to be completely honest, but at the same time, I'm 100% with that business owner. If they don't want someone's business, then it's their discretion and freedom and that's totally fine. Being a Reverb and local instrument seller, I've had my run-in's with time wasting degenerates as well (not calling OP one) and I have completely told them straight up that they were wasting my time. 

This is something I would see at Solar guitars too, but also wanted to say Streetwater is 10/10. If I wanted to buy a new or used item that they had in stock, I'd probably buy it from them. Chicago Music Exchange is another good seller. They're very reasonable and communicative.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

evade said:


> Being a Reverb and local instrument seller, I've had my run-in's with time wasting degenerates as well (not calling OP one) and I have completely told them straight up that they were wasting my time.


I mean, I saw the item, placed my order, paid in full, received my receipt and order confirmation, and that was that. The deal was done. That should've been it. So, I'm definitely not a "time-wasting degenerate".


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight as I've never owned an Agile nor dealt with Kurt, but I do think its a bit odd that the only screenshot we don't see in this explanation is your email sent to him prior to him banning you.
> 
> I don't care if you're right or wrong, just saying, if you're trying to convince us that he's in the wrong, that email would help.


I didn't think a brief email saying: "Hello! I noticed my order was cancelled after being marked as 'ready to ship'. Could someone please provide an explanation as to why?" would be interesting enough to include in this thread.


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## bostjan (Mar 29, 2022)

Wow, really sorry to hear that. I've dealt with Kurt a bunch of times and I know I'm a pain in the ass, yet he had only ever been as polite as the head waiter to me. Either there was some misunderstanding, something is missing, or Kurt had a really bad day. No matter which case, this feels bad.


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## CanserDYI (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I didn't think a brief email saying: "Hello! I noticed my order was cancelled after being marked as 'ready to ship'. Could someone please provide an explanation as to why?" would be interesting enough to include in this thread.


Not the issue of "interesting", but we can only see how he reacted to what you said, which without screenshots of those, we have just what you're telling us you said. Again, you could totally be right, but remember how they say the Victors write history? You're getting to write the history here as we don't have access to your email to him and Kurt doesnt care enough to come on here and defend himself.

Not taking sides, just wanted to point out all we see here is what Kurt said and what you SAID you said.

EDIT: and just thought about it a little more, why WOULDNT we want to see the email in question? You think we'd just kind of believe this man went off the deep end and ban a guy who buys a lot of expensive guitars without reason and not show the proof to back up your story? I like a lot of your posts so I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, just want you to see it from the "jury's eyes".


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## STRHelvete (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I didn't think a brief email saying: "Hello! I noticed my order was cancelled after being marked as 'ready to ship'. Could someone please provide an explanation as to why?" would be interesting enough to include in this thread.


Well apparently that email is interesting. Care to screenshot what it said?


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## Jeffrey Bain (Mar 29, 2022)

Thread is useless without that email but OP knows that lol. Holding back something for sure.


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## Tree (Mar 29, 2022)

“But I already *told* you what I said? Why would you actually need to see it?!”

That’s not how this works  
Interesting or not, if you actually want people to believe you’re being honest absolutely everything needs to be made available. 

I’m not saying you are lying, just pointing out the fallacy.


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## MrWulf (Mar 29, 2022)

You know, I was wandering into this subforum looking to see if anyone has posted about the new Dean ML with Kahler they just released. But instead, there's this instead. 

But yes, missing the OP's email here. There's nothing to be determined unless the full email chain is well, posted. Otherwise, i'd just assume there's probably "something" that is missing here between A and well, Kurt banning the OP from buying ever again.


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## STRHelvete (Mar 29, 2022)

MrWulf said:


> You know, I was wandering into this subforum looking to see if anyone has posted about the new Dean ML with Kahler they just released. But instead, there's this instead.
> 
> But yes, missing the OP's email here. There's nothing to be determined unless the full email chain is well, posted. Otherwise, i'd just assume there's probably "something" that is missing here between A and well, Kurt banning the OP from buying ever again.


Psst...the Dean thread is elsewhere. But this is probably gonna get good so keep watching


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## cardinal (Mar 29, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Wow, really sorry to hear that. I've dealt with Kurt a bunch of times and I know I'm a pain in the ass, yet he had only ever been as polite as the head waiter to me. Either there was some misunderstanding, something is missing, or Kurt had a really bad day. No matter which case, this feels bad.


This has been my experience with Kurt. I'm a PITA but he's always been gracious.


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## Thesius (Mar 29, 2022)

Sounds like "can you check the back for more" kinda vibes.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

I'm out for the rest of the day, but here is the email that you guys are asking for where I requested clarification after receiving notice that my order was cancelled (right before I sent Rondo Music the screenshots to verify the order, verify my PayPal payment, etc.)







Like I said previously in this thread, I didn't think it was pertinent to include. But obviously, you guys do.
@CanserDYI, @GunpointMetal, @bostjan, @STRHelvete, @Jeffrey Bain, @Tree, @MrWulf


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## trem licking (Mar 29, 2022)

i've bought and returned numerous guitars from kurt, many email transactions that were all smooth and polite. excellent customer service. i currently own 4 rondo guitars and would absolutely order more if they had something i wanted. this was all over a span of a decade. 

you didn't lose any money, or time out of this ordeal. perhaps a better question to have asked kurt is "when will you be getting more of these?"


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## cardinal (Mar 29, 2022)

Seems like at least one other email went out after that one (the email with the screen shots that you said you'd send).


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

cardinal said:


> Seems like at least one other email went out after that one (the email with the screen shots that you said you'd send).


Check my initial post.



trem licking said:


> i've bought and returned numerous guitars from kurt, many email transactions that were all smooth and polite. excellent customer service. i currently own 4 rondo guitars and would absolutely order more if they had something i wanted. this was all over a span of a decade.
> 
> you didn't lose any money, or time out of this ordeal. perhaps a better question to have asked kurt is "when will you be getting more of these?"


I wanted to ask that, but he clearly isn't interested in selling to me. My money must not be good enough for him.


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## wheresthefbomb (Mar 29, 2022)

Here are some anecdotes for your enjoyment (or not):

I was recently cease and desisted (first time for everything) by a former employer's attorney for informing him he'd been negligent (he had) in his failure to provide time-sensitive information regarding my workers comp case. 

It was a dick move, I caught him with his pants down, but I had the information in question by this point. I was just pissed and trying to get some accountability, my ego wanted to make sure he knew he'd inconvenienced me with his incompetence, but he had no further legal responsibility to interact with me so he decided it was easier for him in the long run to just block me IRL. 

Point being, it was a cowardly dick move, but I also get why he did it. I laughed my ass off, put the C&D letter in my fridge, called it a moral victory and moved on. 

Also, about 10 years ago an old acquaintance from high school sent me a box of literature. I hated it all(seriously fuck dostoevsky), and he also become a really weird cringy dude during this time. Around two years after sending the books, he asked for them back. I blocked him and left them at a coffee shop. I bet he calls me out at the 20 year reunion


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## /wrists (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I'm out for the rest of the day, but here is the email that you guys are asking for where I requested clarification after receiving notice that my order was cancelled (right before I sent Rondo Music the screenshots to verify the order, verify my PayPal payment, etc.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks fine to me. That response from Rondo was a bit uncalled for...


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## Jeffrey Bain (Mar 29, 2022)

I may be dense, but I really want like, the chain of emails, but at the same time, I don't care.


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## STRHelvete (Mar 29, 2022)

Maybe Rondo dude was on a coke binge and you messaged him at the wrong time while he was spazzing and feeling extra aggressive.


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## CanserDYI (Mar 29, 2022)

Yeah if thats the only email that was sent to him, Kurts on some other shit today @Emperor Guillotine you gotta see how that WAS kind of necessary for any of us to make any sort of decision on who's side to fall on.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Mar 29, 2022)

Feels like we’re not getting the whole story here.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 29, 2022)

Why are people buying from Rondos?


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## STRHelvete (Mar 29, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> Why are people buying from Rondos?


Why not?


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## Emperoff (Mar 29, 2022)

Dunno about you guys, but if I were blacklisted I'd just have someone else order the guitar for me


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Dunno about you guys, but if I were blacklisted I'd just have someone else order the guitar for me


The problem with that approach is that Rondo Music now has my address and info because my order was submitted and processed (“ready to ship”) before being cancelled and refunded. So, someone would have to purchase on my behalf, have it shipped to themselves, then turn around and ship it to me from their location. That means I’m paying for shipping twice (which would be at least double, if not more).


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## Emperoff (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The problem with that approach is that Rondo Music now has my address and info because my order was submitted and processed (“ready to ship”) before being cancelled and refunded. So, someone would have to purchase on my behalf, have it shipped to themselves, then turn around and ship it to me from their location. That means I’m paying for shipping twice (which would be at least double, if not more).



Don't you have friends nearby?


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## STRHelvete (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The problem with that approach is that Rondo Music now has my address and info because my order was submitted and processed (“ready to ship”) before being cancelled and refunded. So, someone would have to purchase on my behalf, have it shipped to themselves, then turn around and ship it to me from their location. That means I’m paying for shipping twice (which would be at least double, if not more).


Ask your neighbor. Give him a handjob for his troubles.


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## CovertSovietBear (Mar 29, 2022)

I haven't bought anything from Rondo but your initial inquiry is in line and respectful? Not sure what occurred between


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## CovertSovietBear (Mar 29, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Ask your neighbor. Give him a handjob for his troubles.


Bare minimum


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## Emperoff (Mar 29, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Ask your neighbor. Give him a handjob for his troubles.



Looks like Kurt is the one that needs a handjob in this story 



Emperor Guillotine said:


> That means I’m paying for shipping twice (which would be at least double, if not more).



Thanks for the clarification


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## Steinmetzify (Mar 29, 2022)

Blocked, don’t order from us anymore but hey, join our mailing list to get updates on sales


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## IbanezDaemon (Mar 29, 2022)

Steinmetzify said:


> Blocked, don’t order from us anymore but hey, join our mailing list to get updates on sales



Was just gonna post that.


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## STRHelvete (Mar 29, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Looks like Kurt is the one that needs a handjob in this story


No use. He's got coke dick and can't get it up


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## mlp187 (Mar 29, 2022)

I’m wondering if Kurt’s email was intended for someone else and @Emperor Guillotine was caught in the crossfire. I get the impression he’s a one-to-two-person operation and thought he was replying to someone else.

@Emperor Guillotine keep us posted if you receive any new correspondence.


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## mastapimp (Mar 30, 2022)

Email came across as slightly pushy. He doesn't owe you an explanation as everything had been refunded and canceled within 1 day. The reason of "stocking error" that was listed should have been enough for you to move on. Following up with a string of emails w/ screenshots isn't going to make your fretless classical guitar magically appear. When he says "you're done" in his email, that's likely not coming as a response to a single point of conversation. He probably got a lot of questions from you that he didn't want to deal with.


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## mpexus (Mar 30, 2022)

In Europe we have Laws for this. Not only the seller had to provide you with what you bought, in case he couldn't anymore (sold out etc) he would have to provide you with the "newer model".


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## prlgmnr (Mar 30, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Don't you have friends nearby?


He did have, but then he sent them a perfectly polite email


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## Demiurge (Mar 30, 2022)

Blacklisting a customer like this is dumb, but I can also see why Kurt would 'nope' out of someone trying to litigate a system glitch.

He was probably getting hell all during the supply shortage, and- let's face it- the second he started offering ERGs and the occasional custom run, he's likely been drowning in emails from every tire-kicking djentkid looking to have their dream guitar for $499 every goddamned day. I'd snap, too.


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## Darkscience (Mar 30, 2022)

Not good customer service, but if you had sent me an email requesting clarification, (on something I already clarified), then bombarded my email with Screenshots, (was it 1 email or a bunch in a row?), I probably would have just ignored you, or said something like read my previous email idk. He took the screenshots personal is my guess, kind of like hey you think I dumb and need screen shots of my own website kind of thing? He did not want your money and that is his choice. 

Unless this thread hurts his business and you were only interested in that one guitar, his business will move on just fine.


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## olejason (Mar 30, 2022)

Agreed on the email coming across as pushy. No one owes you an explanation. Also lmao at sending a store a "thank you" email after placing an order. Who does that? It looks like you came across as a freakin weirdo and Kurt decided it wasn't worth the time placating you.


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## ArtDecade (Mar 30, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> Ask your neighbor. Give him a handjob for his troubles.



I am available to be your neighbor.


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## littlebadboy (Mar 30, 2022)

I have been a PITA to Kurt too but he was always polite. I angrily returned a guitar once and he was still nice.

He probably meant different? Or, he mistaken you as someone else? Or, you did something that you have not disclosed.


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## Thesius (Mar 30, 2022)

olejason said:


> Agreed on the email coming across as pushy. No one owes you an explanation. Also lmao at sending a store a "thank you" email after placing an order. Who does that? It looks like you came across as a freakin weirdo and Kurt decided it wasn't worth the time placating you.


Took the words outta my mouth lol. Not worth his time


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## yellowv (Mar 30, 2022)

Kurt has always offered me exceptional CS and I have always seen that with others throughout the years.


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## Emperoff (Mar 30, 2022)

ArtDecade said:


> I am available to be your neighbor.



It all makes sense now.


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## vortex_infinium (Mar 30, 2022)

It seems like a pretty clear cut case of ghost stock and subsequent lack of inventory management. IMO that part is Rondos fault. I say that bearing in mind that Rondo is a small business and probably doesn't have the resources stop what's happening and update things in real time just because of one email. I don't think you started off wrong as a customer, but your expectations quickly became unrealistic.

I don't blame Kurt for immediately blacklisting you. In my small business I deal with people like you[r email] all the time. The reality is we make X amount of profit down to the minute. When you consider Y amount of time investment plus Z amount of profit, it's losing both money and time. It's simply not worth it. Not on the current transaction, and not on the future business from you and your affiliates. _I haven't made any money, but the amount of money I saved on you is tenfold_.
Edit: wanted to add that the way in which you were blacklisted, regardless of reason, was very unprofessional.

TL;DR
A full refund, and multiple customer service replies, all in the same day? Sounds like a great business with great customer service to me.


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## jaxadam (Mar 30, 2022)

Man, I feel really bad that I got the last Agile Renaissance Classical 625 EQ CUT on Mon, March 28 at 12:38 PM.


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## xzacx (Mar 30, 2022)

I think "slightly pushy" is a fair enough way to categorize it, but the response doesn't seem like an appropriate level of retaliation. Surely business owners have to deal with slightly pushy customers on a regular basis. Unless there's a piece of this that's missing, going straight to "no more orders from you" seems like a really extreme measure.


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## CanserDYI (Mar 30, 2022)

I honestly don't find what @Emperor Guillotine sent (if its complete and not withholding any emails, which I believe at this point) to be pushy or anything. He simply wanted to know what happened and all in all, "wasted" maybe 10 minutes of Kurt's time? 

I think its pretty shitty if that's how it played out, being blacklisted for asking why his order was cancelled, and making it seem like he was going to purchase again if it was just an error...now he won't buy any more guitars, and jokes on them, have you seen his collection? lol


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## Emperoff (Mar 30, 2022)

xzacx said:


> I think "slightly pushy" is a fair enough way to categorize it, but the response doesn't seem like an appropriate level of retaliation. Surely business owners have to deal with slightly pushy customers on a regular basis. Unless there's a piece of this that's missing, going straight to "no more orders from you" seems like a really extreme measure.



Kurt probably had a very bad day (or had enough shit from other customers) to snap. It can happen to anyone, I guess.

I receive emails on a weekly basis asking me if my pricings are for all the tubes in the picture, even if the first line of the listing says that price is per tube,
*AND THAT LINE IS THIS BIG!*

Sometimes people just can't stand idiocy for one more second and they snap and "reboot". It happens to the best of us. Looks like @Emperor Guillotine was collateral damage.


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## Darkscience (Mar 30, 2022)

So I re-read his first response to you just now, and what you said and then he said with a fresh mind again and to me it seems pushy after he apologized, refunded you, and told you error all in one email. I know you did not intend it that way but now looking at it again it comes off like your starting trouble, it doesn't come off like your bummed about not getting the guitar. You should have said something more like, hey man sorry to bug you so much I just really had my heart set on getting one, but even then what is he suppose to do? He can't make you one and he probably can't promise to fix the website either, because he probably needs help to do it. I still think he over reacted because I myself would have behaved differently but I can see how that could drive someone to snap, he has probably refunded dozens of guitars and when you started to dig in about it he lost it. But I know do believe it was a pushy thing what you did, my reason is equal, I myself would never do what you did. If I bought something on a website and the guy refunded me and told me all the truth, and made not have to wonder if I will ever see my product or money again, I would not then go and email him for clarification, and go through the trouble of taking a bunch of screen shots and pretty much demanding me to tell you the EXACT reason why my stock is screwed up. But like he said, there is a stocking error, what more could you possibly want to know? His employees name that screwed up? See what I mean it just sounds like that is where this was headed type of thing. AGAIN though bad service, but there is also no way what you did is normal customer behavior, so you both were not meant to do business together and he saw that and cut off the relationship early.


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## vilk (Mar 30, 2022)

He told you the reason. Inventory discrepancy. What else did you need to know? Ji-hoon's 5's look like 6's? What would you have done with that info? Demand Ji-hoon's reprimand? Leave a shitty review?

Customers who demand to know the fine details in a case like this only have a limited number of reasons to seek the knowledge, and almost all of them are to use that knowledge to somehow attack the business. At least, that was my experience working as customer service for a stocking warehouse importing products manufactured in Asia.

Having said that, he didn't need to jump to the blacklist. I had a number of other tricks up my sleeve, including but not limited to repeating the same information over and over until you give up. "Sorry, there was an inventory discrepancy".


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## CrushingAnvil (Mar 30, 2022)

I don't have anything to add to this thread, I just got to the end. What a journey so far.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 30, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Man, I feel really bad that I got the last Agile Renaissance Classical 625 EQ CUT on Mon, March 28 at 12:38 PM.


Did you really though?


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## prlgmnr (Mar 31, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Did you really though?


I think he was doing one of their Earth "jokes"


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## narad (Mar 31, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Man, I feel really bad that I got the last Agile Renaissance Classical 625 EQ CUT on Mon, March 28 at 12:38 PM.



Now Kurt's going to get a screenshot of this post.


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## jaxadam (Mar 31, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Did you really though?



Yeah man! I emailed them just totally bitching and they were like "fine, you can have the last one". See, there's a little trick, it's like with hotels. The manager always books a few rooms under their name in case of an emergency, so they're never really "sold out". I bet Rondo does the same thing. They usually hold one more guitar just in case but why am I telling you all of this... your done (sic).


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## Chokey Chicken (Mar 31, 2022)

Seems wildly out of character to me. His response to me saying I was considering taking my business elsewhere when I had two orders fairly close together have issues (pickup died in one guitar so likely not a him problem) and getting shipped a neck pickup instead of a bridge pickup. I wasn't outright rude, but still probably complained about it in a dickish way. He didn't even ask for the neck pickup back and sent me the bridge pickup for free, shipping included. Pertaining to the guitar with the failed pup, he offered to send a pickup to replace it, but I declined since I'd already put an SD in it. 

Maybe he was having a really bad day? I dunno, it still seems like something he wouldn't do but I guess it could happen. Maybe things have changed, who's to say. All I know is my own experiences, and they've always been pleasant.


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## Giest (Mar 31, 2022)

Almost hard to tell if this thread climaxed already or OP got bant for not thanking all who gave input. 

In any case, as stated, I too bite my thumb at out of stock niche instruments.


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 31, 2022)

Seems pretty unreasonable to me IMO, blacklisting customers is a stupid practice unless that customer is defrauding you and you catch it. I dislike it when Kiesel does it, or any other builder, because it's short sighted and incredibly stupid.

The correct response was:
"Hey ______

Sorry this happened, we're currently swamped and didn't account for this item correctly in the inventory. It's sold out as of right now and we'll work on getting the listings removed, I expect to get another batch of these in Q3 of 2022. So stay tuned for the restock, take care!"

Going off on a customer is a net monetary loss, the dude was barely pushing Kurt for an answer. You can justify getting slightly annoyed, but justifying the response is a fucking stretch to me.


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## tedtan (Mar 31, 2022)

From what has been posted of the conversation, @Emperor Guillotine wasn’t in the wrong. Maybe a little more time to respond to than Kurt wanted to put in at that time, but not pushy or otherwise in the wrong.

What is wrong is listing an instrument for sale that you don’t have in stock unless you spell out that it is a case of preordering the guitar. And it costs more to gain a new customer than to keep an existing one happy, so writing a customer off like this is also bad business decision making. It may seem like the right call in the moment, but it will cost money over time.

So unless there is more to this story than we are privy too, I have to fault Kurt here.


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## ixlramp (Mar 31, 2022)

For the reasons stated by some other posters, i can see why Kurt got irritated, unfortunately irritated enough for a strict action and a 'curt' reply


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## ElRay (Mar 31, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I didn't think a brief email saying: "Hello! I noticed my order was cancelled after being marked as 'ready to ship'. Could someone please provide an explanation as to why?" would be interesting enough to include in this thread.


But that's not what you did. You supplied all this "evidence" implying that you were somehow owed the guitar. You're also being dishonest here by not showing your complete email. Sending twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one is not a "brief email" asking what's up. 

Where's the rest of the email you actually sent? What you're not showing very well may be the reason(s) you got (¿yourself?) banned.


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## ElRay (Mar 31, 2022)

vortex_infinium said:


> It seems like a pretty clear cut case of ghost stock and subsequent lack of inventory management. I


It could have been an issue with the two ordering systems not linked in real-time.

It could have been a defect that made the instrument unsellable the wasn't found until final QC.

It could have been dropped, stepped0on, sat-on, etc. during final QC.

There could have been a family of Forsted Elfin Butterflies (endangered/protected in NH) that moved in while the instrument was in storage.


vortex_infinium said:


> TL;DR
> A full refund, and multiple customer service replies, all in the same day? Sounds like a great business with great customer service to me.


I'm picturing OP coming off like that know-it-all kid in Polar Express.


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## Jeffrey Bain (Mar 31, 2022)

Yeah I mean, I haven't read all the posts since I last was here but it sounds like the full chain still isn't supplied so verdict is out IMO

For what it's worth though, blacklisting a customer is just bad business no matter how you slice it. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. Some folks aren't keen on the details, won't investigate and WILL take whatever the slander the customer is selling. It's hard to be in business and it's hard to stay in business and dealing with customers is for sure one of those things that makes it as such.


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## Masoo2 (Apr 1, 2022)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Seems pretty unreasonable to me IMO, blacklisting customers is a stupid practice unless that customer is defrauding you and you catch it. I dislike it when Kiesel does it, or any other builder, because it's short sighted and incredibly stupid.
> 
> The correct response was:
> "Hey ______
> ...


This 100%. Kurt is a dick for this. Dude's acting like he's Steve Jobs with that kind of ego.

The dude's entire career is based off of selling niche guitars direct to customer through the internet. Why can't he handle a simple email request asking why an order was refunded that was subsequently posted back online without outright blacklisting the customer?

People are acting like @Emperor Guillotine sent some 10 email-long chain diatribe making all sorts of personal accusations and threats towards the dude, he just wanted to know why the order was canceled even though the guitar was relisted so he could get a proper order through.

If you can't handle _basic customer service requests, _your business deserves to fail. I've had no problem communicating at-length with incredibly large guitar retailers/companies and incredibly small luthiers and everything in between. In fact, many of them _love_ to talk about their products because wow....who would've thought that talking about your products and ensuring good customer service to potential customers with a positive attitude would lead to increased sales???

A two minute response to an email is not something to get worked up over lmao.


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## narad (Apr 2, 2022)

I'm basically with Kurt. You have a finite time in life. Since I started selling on Reverb, I've quickly adapted to lowering customer service in cases where it's obvious the person has no value for my own time. You're 40 minutes into chat with me and now after I've measured the neck with a contour gauge, weighed it, and checked for dead spots, you're worried that you might have too many floyd guitars to buy another one? You're done. I'm not a chatbot and I've got better things to do. And when the guitars are priced well, they still sell, probably to higher prices to nicer people. I'll even go as far to say I would rather not sell an instrument to anyone who is being a PIA, even if I had to sell for less, just not to further incentivize people to treat sellers in such ways.

It seems not so egregious here (but who are we to say, we are not given the full conversation), but the logic is similar. For Kurt, I'm sure he'd love to sell the guitar if he had one to sell. Simply telling you it was an inventory mishap was not enough? Hounding with "evidence" after the fact does not make it untrue. And where are the rest of these emails? Sure you can try to get the internet mob upset, but at least provide a less edited collection of the conversation.


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## fantom (Apr 2, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I mean, I saw the item, placed my order, paid in full, received my receipt and order confirmation, and that was that. The deal was done. That should've been it. So, I'm definitely not a "time-wasting degenerate".



You just spent 5 pages discussing someone blacklisting you for wasting their time by claiming you aren't a time-waster. Hmmmmm

FWIW, I played an Agile once out of curiosity and didn't like it at all. IMO, you dodged 2 bullets here. Be grateful.




Emperor Guillotine said:


> I'm out for the rest of the day, but here is the email that you guys are asking for where I requested clarification after receiving notice that my order was cancelled (right before I sent Rondo Music the screenshots to verify the order, verify my PayPal payment, etc.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ok so here is the problem. He resolved the situation. You replied and accused him, intentionally or not, of being incompetent at inventory. Then you followed up with screenshots, which makes it seem like you care more about being right than being amicable.

You should have just replied, "please feel free to notify me if you get more in stock."




Emperor Guillotine said:


> The problem with that approach is that Rondo Music now has my address and info because my order was submitted and processed (“ready to ship”) before being cancelled and refunded. So, someone would have to purchase on my behalf, have it shipped to themselves, then turn around and ship it to me from their location. That means I’m paying for shipping twice (which would be at least double, if not more).



Well, luckily with all these privacy laws, you can just notify them that you want your information deleted from their servers and you have no problem never ordering from them again.


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## tedtan (Apr 2, 2022)

narad said:


> I'm basically with Kurt. You have a finite time in life. Since I started selling on Reverb, I've quickly adapted to lowering customer service in cases where it's obvious the person has no value for my own time. You're 40 minutes into chat with me and now after I've measured the neck with a contour gauge, weighed it, and checked for dead spots, you're worried that you might have too many floyd guitars to buy another one? You're done. I'm not a chatbot and I've got better things to do. And when the guitars are priced well, they still sell, probably to higher prices to nicer people. I'll even go as far to say I would rather not sell an instrument to anyone who is being a PIA, even if I had to sell for less, just not to further incentivize people to treat sellers in such ways.
> 
> It seems not so egregious here (but who are we to say, we are not given the full conversation), but the logic is similar. For Kurt, I'm sure he'd love to sell the guitar if he had one to sell. Simply telling you it was an inventory mishap was not enough? Hounding with "evidence" after the fact does not make it untrue. And where are the rest of these emails? Sure you can try to get the internet mob upset, but at least provide a less edited collection of the conversation.


OK, that makes sense as a private seller.

But how does that track with a retail seller offering for sale a guitar they don’t actually have in stock?

That’s far from an apples to apples comparison.


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## Thesius (Apr 2, 2022)

tedtan said:


> OK, that makes sense as a private seller.
> 
> But how does that track with a retail seller offering for sale a guitar they don’t actually have in stock?
> 
> That’s far from an apples to apples comparison.


Inventory issues happen all the time. Was it relisted or was it just not taken down in time? I sell on 3 different platforms and when something sells I'm not always quick enough to remove it from the others and very rarely someone will buy from one in the down time. I refund them and tell them the reason why. I've never had someone email me proof as to why they believe they bought the "last one". I'd block them without a second thought.


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## narad (Apr 2, 2022)

tedtan said:


> OK, that makes sense as a private seller.
> 
> But how does that track with a retail seller offering for sale a guitar they don’t actually have in stock?
> 
> That’s far from an apples to apples comparison.



Sure, but mistakes happen, especially at retail level, especially online when things are for sale on multiple platforms. In this case, the retailer apologizes for that mistake. And then things get weird.

I had a similar thing happen when my item sold locally via mercari, and then like 20 minutes later sold via yahoo auctions. All after being listed for like 3 weeks. Then the yahoo guy pays immediately and is like adamant about getting the instrument. I suspect he knew it sold on mercari and decided to buy it on yahoo anyway, and again, it is one of these situations where it's like, what are you thinking? I don't have two of these. You don't magically get one because you officially purchased it through an official channel. He tried to leave me negative feedback which an yahoo would actually be a big problem and probably would have kept me from bidding on other items, but fortunately I was able to get the whole transaction cancelled. But not without a lot of headache on my part because I don't speak the appropriate type of Japanese to handle this kind of stuff. And why? There's no nefarious thing going on. There's no bait-and-switch. Just people trying to sell things honestly.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 2, 2022)

how the fuck has this thread ballooned to 5 pages


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## ScottThunes1960 (Apr 2, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> how the fuck has this thread ballooned to 5 pages


So we can experience firsthand what Kurt nipped in the bud.


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## Hoss632 (Apr 2, 2022)

The fact that the OP has manage to continually respond for 5 pages has me wondering if Kurt is the one who dodged the bullet in this situation.


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## TheBlackBard (Apr 2, 2022)

KnightBrolaire said:


> how the fuck has this thread ballooned to 5 pages



Tonight on Unsolved Mysteries...

Kurt from Rondo music, a man who has continually given great customer service even in cases of one-sided miscommunication, all of a sudden tells a customer "they're done" and blacklists them from ordering again. But are we getting the full story? Detectives on sevenstring.org have reason to suspect that perhaps something more nefarious was done or said on the customer's end, leading to a full-blown micro-campaign on a man otherwise known for his customer service. Will the final e-mail come out and reveal important details that may have led to Kurt's abrupt change in personality? Or will it be another one of those Unsolved Mysteries?

Duh-nuh-nuh-nah-nuh-nuh-nuh, duh-nuh-nuh-nah-nuh-nuh-nah, duh-nuh-nuh-nah-nuh-nuh-nuh, duh-nuh-nuh-nah-nuh-nuh-nah


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## tedtan (Apr 2, 2022)

Thesius said:


> Inventory issues happen all the time. Was it relisted or was it just not taken down in time? I sell on 3 different platforms and when something sells I'm not always quick enough to remove it from the others and very rarely someone will buy from one in the down time. I refund them and tell them the reason why. I've never had someone email me proof as to why they believe they bought the "last one". I'd block them without a second thought.


I understand that shit happens, but ultimately, the one placing the listings is responsible for them, including keeping them up to date. And that even more important for busineses.

I certainly allow that there may be more to this situation than we are reading here, but let’s not pretend that Kurt is perfectly in the right here. At the very least, he is in the wrong for having items listed for sale on his website that are not actually available. He handled the situation correctly at first by apologizing and issuing the refund, but from there, who knows?

But my main point was that a private seller doesn’t deal with this day in and day out like a business does, so A business is expected to be on top of these things more so than a private seller is.


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## Agalloch (Apr 2, 2022)

Yeah, all I can say here is that I hope I never end up selling something to OP.

I don't think that any seller should be expected to put up with eyeroll-inducing behavior. Working retail sucked for exactly that reason.

Let it go and move on.


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## StevenC (Apr 2, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> "Millions"? Nice hyperbole.


Abrasive


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## NoodleFace (Apr 2, 2022)

narad said:


> Sure, but mistakes happen, especially at retail level, especially online when things are for sale on multiple platforms. In this case, the retailer apologizes for that mistake. And then things get weird.
> 
> I had a similar thing happen when my item sold locally via mercari, and then like 20 minutes later sold via yahoo auctions. All after being listed for like 3 weeks. Then the yahoo guy pays immediately and is like adamant about getting the instrument. I suspect he knew it sold on mercari and decided to buy it on yahoo anyway, and again, it is one of these situations where it's like, what are you thinking? I don't have two of these. You don't magically get one because you officially purchased it through an official channel. He tried to leave me negative feedback which an yahoo would actually be a big problem and probably would have kept me from bidding on other items, but fortunately I was able to get the whole transaction cancelled. But not without a lot of headache on my part because I don't speak the appropriate type of Japanese to handle this kind of stuff. And why? There's no nefarious thing going on. There's no bait-and-switch. Just people trying to sell things honestly.


This is the feeling I'm getting from the op reading between the lines. Like somehow there is one that exists and he's owed it. 

If this happened to me id just chalk it up to the system not being accurate. Happens when I order shit online on Walmart, target... Hell it's happened at Amazon. Just the way it goes. Comes off sounding very neurotic. 

Also the people saying it wasted "10 minutes" of Kurt's time. If every email I received at work wasted 10 minutes of my time I wouldn't get anything done all day.


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## remorse is for the dead (Apr 2, 2022)

This should've been posted in the OT first world problems thread.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 2, 2022)

As I said from the beginning, OP can come off as difficult and in an abrasive manner online, anonymously. It happens. Was he here? We'll probably never know, but Kurt ain't no fool. He's been at this for like three or four decades. Heck, I've bought from him and Rondo for something like 20 years now. 

You know what you gain in that much time? Savvy. 

He determined the OP was going to be a serial problem based on their interaction and just took the nuclear option. 

Contrary to some, there really are customers not worth having. Businesses make that call all the time. 

Was that the right call here? I don't know. You could probably make the argument either way.


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## tedtan (Apr 2, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Contrary to some, there really are customers not worth having. Businesses make that call all the time.


This is definitely true, and is a good point.




MaxOfMetal said:


> Was that the right call here? I don't know. You could probably make the argument either way.


That’s the key question, and you’re probably right


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## Dayn (Apr 2, 2022)

Blacklisting aside, it seems there was an error on their end and they didn't have stock. So they apologised and manually refunded you within 5 hours of the automated order confirmation. Sounds like a very quick resolution to an embarrassing situation for Rondo Music. But you still tried to claim you had an order, despite being refunded? Well.

I suppose I'm left wondering... what exactly were you trying to accomplish? If you had the ability to manifest the existence of a guitar through sheer willpower alone, why manifest it with a vendor? Skip the middle man and conjure it directly into your hands.


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## Giest (Apr 2, 2022)

fantom said:


> You replied and accused him, intentionally or not, of being incompetent at inventory.



To be fair, incompetence is the norm these days. I can't seem to spend over 1k$ on anything without somebody coming along and bollocking me up the rear. They say customer service is dead, personally I don't believe it. I think QC is dead, but I'll get screwed either way and they'll be happy with my money.

As far a Kurt, IDGAF. We all have bad days, it's not a reason to crucify the dude or the OP. The Agile I gigged with for two years and more was fine, in fact it was a lifeline at that point in my journey. Two people don't get along and alluvasudden folks are supposed to take sides- or worse, display they logically can't take a side without seeing all the data. That's why this thread is five pages long, not the OP.


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## fantom (Apr 2, 2022)

Giest said:


> To be fair, incompetence is the norm these days. I can't seem to spend over 1k$ on anything without somebody coming along and bollocking me up the rear. They say customer service is dead, personally I don't believe it. I think QC is dead, but I'll get screwed either way and they'll be happy with my money.
> 
> As far a Kurt, IDGAF. We all have bad days, it's not a reason to crucify the dude or the OP. The Agile I gigged with for two years and more was fine, in fact it was a lifeline at that point in my journey. Two people don't get along and alluvasudden folks are supposed to take sides- or worse, display they logically can't take a side without seeing all the data. That's why this thread is five pages long, not the OP.


Not taking a side. Just think OP needs to work on his self awareness. I've had similar experiences with other well regarded builders many many years ago. I didn't realize I came across as someone difficult to work with. I don't blame them for telling me to #@$& off in hindsight.

In other words, it doesn't matter who is right. OP didn't seem to understand that point. Since he asked for feedback, I gave it.


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## AMOS (Apr 2, 2022)

I wonder how those Rondo 8 string acoustics are.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 2, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I wonder how those Rondo 8 string acoustics are.



I have two. For what they are, they're great. They're no Songbird or 814, but they're fun to play.


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## MrWulf (Apr 3, 2022)

All this thread giving me is that i want one of those 25 to 27 inch 7 string Renaissance that they had in store at one point.


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## trem licking (Apr 3, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I wonder how those Rondo 8 string acoustics are.


I have one as well, it is a legit guitar. Do recommend


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 3, 2022)

mlp187 said:


> @Emperor Guillotine keep us posted if you receive any new correspondence.


I've been gone and out for a few days, but there has been new correspondence. I'll drop it here in this post as I'm replying to everyone.

Kurt replied to me. And he *is *right here. The guitar is sold and gone. Nothing to be done.







But here is the catch...

Some new info has come to light. I have a buddy who works in tech coding/programming. (Something way, way beyond my understanding.) He went onto the Reverb website, checked the info for the "sold" listing of what was the last Agile Renaissance Classical 625 EQ CUT Fretless since I had it watched and bookmarked, and he was able ascertain the date and time that the listing sold on Reverb. Go figure, it was sold several hours after I had already placed my order on the Rondo Music website for the same guitar. (My suspicions were correct.) So, I legitimately did put my order in first and purchase the guitar first.

Now this is not even be an issue of Rondo poorly maintaining their online inventory and having a guitar still listed for sale. This is an issue of Kurt legitimately screwing me over and making the conscious decision to send the final guitar out to another person even though I absolutely, verifiably placed my order first.






I took the evidence of this "discrepancy" to Kurt, and he seems to have backed down a bit. But this was his response.






I'm also trying to do my screenshots differently from here going forward.

Yahoo! Mail (the mail service I used for this particular account) makes it really difficult to screenshot email threads because you have to either expand or collapse the entire thread. So, you either see everything (and the text becomes incredibly tiny...too much screenshot...with the aesthetic of a jumbled Reddit thread) or you see nothing (just the first few words of each message). It's very annoying, which is why screenshotting singular emails has been my approach thus far for this thread. I might switch over to a new Gmail account for handling all gear-related inquiries. (All of my other email accounts are on Gmail.)

So... "now what?"











"Guitars are shipped immediately."

That is a blatant lie. If the guitar was shipped immediately, then I would've received it fair and square instead of my order being cancelled and arbitrarily not chosen just because someone else placed an order as well several hours later via a different sales platform.











And the final email.






I didn't respond further. I just don't see the point anymore. I'm just done. I'm fed up.

I got shafted here. My order was placed first, paid for first, and then arbitrarily cancelled because someone was too damn lazy to check the order/email/whatever and see that my order via the Rondo Music website legitimately was placed first before whomever placed the order via Reverb several hours later. No matter how you dice it, this amounts to Kurt (or whomever handles Rondo's shipping) legitimately being at fault here; and then Kurt is taking the Kiesel tactic to cover his ass by immediately blacklisting the customer (me) and exhibiting this "the customer is stupid and always wrong" mentality.



jaxadam said:


> Yeah man! I emailed them just totally bitching and they were like "fine, you can have the last one". See, there's a little trick, it's like with hotels. The manager always books a few rooms under their name in case of an emergency, so they're never really "sold out". I bet Rondo does the same thing. They usually hold one more guitar just in case but why am I telling you all of this... your done (sic).


Thank you for sharing!

But see Kurt's reply to this...








Jonathan20022 said:


> Seems pretty unreasonable to me IMO, blacklisting customers is a stupid practice unless that customer is defrauding you and you catch it. I dislike it when Kiesel does it, or any other builder, because it's short sighted and incredibly stupid.
> 
> The correct response was:
> "Hey ______
> ...


Exactly.

I'm sure that many, many forum members here have worked in a job involving customer service, whether it was sales, IT, customer support, hospitality, or anything of that nature. These jobs like what I've listed can be hard. Dealing with the public can be truly unbearable. People can suck. But I also try to be respectful of what customer service folks have to deal with on the daily. So I try to not be an annoyance.

Was I wrong here? Maybe. Possibly. Potentially. But all I wanted was an explanation as to why I got my order in first, and yet, the guitar was not shipped to me. That's it.

I definitely didn't push beyond a certain point. Appreciate your understanding and you weighing in, @Jonathan20022.



ElRay said:


> But that's not what you did. You supplied all this "evidence" implying that you were somehow owed the guitar. You're also being dishonest here by not showing your complete email. Sending twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one is not a "brief email" asking what's up.
> 
> Where's the rest of the email you actually sent? What you're not showing very well may be the reason(s) you got (¿yourself?) banned.


Yahoo! Mail (the mail service I used for this particular account) makes it really difficult to screenshot email threads because you have to either expand or collapse the entire thread. So, you either see everything (and the text becomes incredibly tiny...too much screenshot...with the aesthetic of a jumbled Reddit thread) or you see nothing (just the first few words of each message). It's very annoying, which is why screenshotting singular emails has been my approach thus far for this thread.



ElRay said:


> It could have been sat-on during final QC.


No chair or stool around? Fuck it, I'll just sit on one of these guitars while I inspect and setup the rest of the guitars. 



Masoo2 said:


> This 100%. Kurt is a dick for this. Dude's acting like he's Steve Jobs with that kind of ego.
> 
> The dude's entire career is based off of selling niche guitars direct to customer through the internet. Why can't he handle a simple email request asking why an order was refunded that was subsequently posted back online without outright blacklisting the customer?
> 
> ...


Thank you, @Masoo2. I really appreciate someone making the effort to understand my logic/reasoning here.



Thesius said:


> Inventory issues happen all the time. Was it relisted or was it just not taken down in time?


See my response to @mlp187 above (in this same reply).



KnightBrolaire said:


> how the fuck has this thread ballooned to 5 pages


My question exactly.


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## MikeNeal (Apr 3, 2022)

holy shit. 

all that over a shitty acoustic..

I'm surprised Kurt had the patience to keep responding.


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## narad (Apr 3, 2022)

How do you know that someone actually purchased a guitar from Reverb and not that a guitar was sold previously, maybe days ago, and when your order was placed and the discrepancy was identified, your order was cancelled and the model was beginning to be pulled from the various places it was listed?

But it's a little besides the point. I think as soon as they say, "Sorry, we don't have that guitar", the reality doesn't much matter. Like that's the thing, like you could be right, but from that point on it doesn't really matter. I feel like the only way that helps you get what you want at that point is like, "oh, can you put me in for one of those future orders" etc., maybe you even get a 15% discount or something off the future order. But that typically hinges on approaching it from a more respectful low-hassle sort of angle.

I personally would assume if they were arbitrarily choosing anyone, they would choose you since they don't have to pay Reverb fees, if the situation is not different for companies.


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## tedtan (Apr 3, 2022)

If I was on the fence before based on the initial email conversation, I’m not any longer; that last email exchange was over the top.

Like narad said, once its gone, it doesn’t matter if you are in the right or not. From a practical perspective, the guitar is gone and its not coming back until they get more stock.


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## pondman (Apr 3, 2022)

This just got too funny. I would suggest you keep mailing the guy until his head explodes 
I mean, you do have a point and the bad man black listed you


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## Mboogie7 (Apr 3, 2022)

I guess I’m still lost at that part where you were told it was sold and pursued this like a fucking cold case. Like, you legit had a computer coder look at this for a 500 dollar acoustic?

I mean, do you dude, but the moment the words “sorry, it’s gone” are said from a dealer, there’s not much to be done.

There are so many variables that go into this scenario from computer lag time, software communication, being human, etc, for this to assume you were deliberately screwed. Yeah, it sucks it worked out this way for you, but I really doubt Kurt woke up that morning, took a sip of coffee and said “yeah, ima screw with X customer today”.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 3, 2022)

Mboogie7 said:


> I guess I’m still lost at that part where you were told it was sold and pursued this like a fucking cold case. Like, you legit had a computer coder look at this for a 500 dollar acoustic?


I play to win.


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## jaxadam (Apr 3, 2022)

Mboogie7 said:


> I guess I’m still lost at that part where you were told it was sold and pursued this like a fucking cold case. Like, you legit had a computer coder look at this for a 500 dollar acoustic?
> 
> I mean, do you dude, but the moment the words “sorry, it’s gone” are said from a dealer, there’s not much to be done.
> 
> There are so many variables that go into this scenario from computer lag time, software communication, being human, etc, for this to assume you were deliberately screwed. Yeah, it sucks it worked out this way for you, but I really doubt Kurt woke up that morning, took a sip of coffee and said “yeah, ima screw with X customer today”.



Yeah, the phrase “no use crying over spilled milk” comes to mind.


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## jaxadam (Apr 3, 2022)

pondman said:


> This just got too funny. I would suggest you keep mailing the guy until his head explodes
> I mean, you do have a point and the bad man black listed you



I’m sure a few more emails and a forensic code will turn up a dusty guitar. 

But what Rondo really should do to make this right is go to the person’s house that ordered the last one, demand it back, and redeliver it to our buddy here.


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## wheresthefbomb (Apr 3, 2022)




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## Giest (Apr 3, 2022)

Dude you're not getting the guitar, move on.

Starting to think Kurt made the right call off the bat.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 3, 2022)

Giest said:


> Dude you're not getting the guitar, move on.
> 
> Starting to think Kurt made the right call off the bat.


But I already have; and I made it very clear.

The only folks keeping this thread going at this point are members who think that by dropping a reply to "stick it to me" or "put me in my place", they will look "better" in the eyes of their fellow forum members or score some kind of nonexistent internet brownie points. (Lest we forget that SS.org's rep system has been dead and gone for years and years now.)

So...yeah...


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 3, 2022)

No brownie points needed. You're acting annoying, and your string of emails confirms you were acting annoying. Guy made the right choice blacklisting you if a simple full refund + "sorry, it was sold" leads to unnecessary digging and pages of emails trying to have a "gotcha" moment.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 3, 2022)

Chokey Chicken said:


> No brownie points needed. You're acting annoying, and your string of emails confirms you were acting annoying. Guy made the right choice blacklisting you if a simple full refund + "sorry, it was sold" leads to unnecessary digging and pages of emails trying to have a "gotcha" moment.


But hey, if a company legitimately screws me over, that is a different story.

The guitar was in-stock. I purchased it. Someone else then purchased it as well via a different platform hours and hours later. That someone else got the guitar shipped to them and I didn’t (despite me verifiably ordering/paying first) due to the company’s/shop’s outright laziness and incompetence. Yes, I got my money back, but this *should not have happened*. End of story.


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## jaxadam (Apr 3, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> But hey, if a company legitimately screws me over, that is a different story.
> 
> The guitar was in-stock. I purchased it. Someone else then purchased it as well via a different platform hours and hours later. That someone else got the guitar shipped to them and I didn’t (despite me verifiably ordering/paying first) due to the company’s/shop’s outright laziness and incompetence. Yes, I got my money back, but this *should not have happened*. End of story.



But it happened. End of story.

Reminds me of this time my wife and I were checking out of one of those nice luxury resort type hotels. I got the bill and they added all of this shit to it. I was like "what are all of these extra charges for?" And they said "well sir that was for parking, that was for the pool concierge, that was for the cabana, that was for the beach chairs, that was for the..." And I said "hold up, I didn't use any of that stuff!" and they said "but you could have". So I said let me speak to the manager. He comes out and I hand him a bill for $1000. He said "what's this for?" And I said "for sleeping with my wife." He said "I didn't sleep with your wife!" and I said "but you could have!".


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## Giest (Apr 3, 2022)

Sorry if I was a little sharp in my previous post. It was correct of you to reveal to us that he's willing to work with you now and is communicating, at least for the sake of a fair representation of the situation, but beyond that man it's just hard to see someone banging their head against the wall.

He's free to sell or not sell his guitars to you for practically any reason upon his sole discretion (I'm assuming he's the big wheel over there). That is the bottom line here, I'd suggest dropping it. Him being short fused about it is an entirely different matter in my opinion, but that issue seems to be closed at this point as well. Splitting hairs over the intricacies of Reverb statistical logging isn't something anyone finds compelling, and it's not something you need to know a single thing about anything to figure out in the first place. As far as the guitar being shipped immediately, when you purchase a guitar they usually print out a shipping label nearly immediately. That is likely what Kurt meant by the guitar is already shipped. It's paid for, then they do the shipping label and it sits to go out. I don't know if he would have to eat the price of shipping by cancelling the already designated label/receiver and then pay for another one to you on top of that- but I wouldn't be surprised.

Like I said I'm not glad this happened to you, or that it happens to any musician if only for the reason that I know how it feels because it has happened to me as well. That said, I think once you've repaired the rapport and are waiting for the next build everything will be fine. They're still making the model again unless I'm mistaken. My favorite guitars aren't currently being made and though I have had more than a few of them in and out of my collection at this point I still have to check multiple sites through saved searches everyday to snag more. It sucks, but at least you know for sure it's coming around again and you can snag a brand new one.

Finding and/or getting the ideal instrument takes time, patience, and money. Creating friction with dealers/manufacturers/reps isn't going to help, your only goal at this point should be reconciliation IMO. I wouldn't even mention guitars to him again for probably a couple months. I suggested you let the situation breathe for awhile then touch base again after a month or so and then have a come to Jesus about how to be a polite customer and how to be a polite merchant respectively. Now you're pushing it with him again, and I emphatically assure you if he writes you off again you'll be justifiably done.


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## High Plains Drifter (Apr 3, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> But I already have; and I made it very clear.
> 
> The only folks keeping this thread going at this point are members who think that by dropping a reply to "stick it to me" or "put me in my place", they will look "better" in the eyes of their fellow forum members or score some kind of nonexistent internet brownie points. (Lest we forget that SS.org's rep system has been dead and gone for years and years now.)
> 
> So...yeah...


I don't see that... Some jabs definitely but mostly it's just people that are forming an opinion with everything that's been presented... and that they disagree with the way you handled it.

I know this is obvious but gotta say that with online sales/ products/ retailers I don't think I've EVER assumed 100% that it was a done deal just cause I clicked 'BUY'. There are just SO many things that can happen behind the scenes that we have no ability to foresee nor control... misinformation, lag times with updates, delays, and discrepancies of all kinds... and none of it necessarily unfair nor malicious. I never assume that "everything went smoothly" until I see that the item was shipped. And even then, I won't completely breathe a sigh of relief until after I've received it, opened up the box, and inspected everything. I always know that errors can occur... seconds, minutes, hours, or even days after I've placed my order.

I dunno, OP... hopefully you'll be able to find this one again down the road. Good luck, dude.


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## Electric Wizard (Apr 3, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> But hey, if a company legitimately screws me over, that is a different story.
> 
> The guitar was in-stock. I purchased it. Someone else then purchased it as well via a different platform hours and hours later. That someone else got the guitar shipped to them and I didn’t (despite me verifiably ordering/paying first) due to the company’s/shop’s outright laziness and incompetence. Yes, I got my money back, but this *should not have happened*. End of story.


How do you know the Reverb listing ended because someone bought it after you? Couldn't the other person have also bought it on the website before you did and had the same inventory bug keep the reverb listing active? Which was then ended when they realized the error.


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## Perge (Apr 3, 2022)

Electric Wizard said:


> How do you know the Reverb listing ended because someone bought it after you? Couldn't the other person have also bought it on the website before you did and had the same inventory bug keep the reverb listing active? Which was then ended when they realized the error.


Because his buddy said so bro!

JFC Kurt definitely made the right call. You're a customer service reps worst nightmare.


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## Dayn (Apr 3, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I play to win.


 You had the best possible outcome (a refund within 5 hours), but you fought a battle that was already over and came out worse because of it. Being blacklisted seems perfectly reasonable in the circumstances. The alternative was waiting for it to be in stock again, but now even that is denied to you.

I'd suggest playing a different game.


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## Bodes (Apr 3, 2022)

At this stage, you are going out of your way to confirm some of the negative observations that users have posted about the way in which you interact with other people online.

I would strongly suggest that you just stop, you are not going to get the guitar and you were given a full refund. It sucks, we get it, but going about it the way you are - or in any way for that matter - is not going to change anything, apart from possibly stopping anyone dealing with you in a future sale or trade.

The internet can be a very ugly place, and the more you dig to 'prove you are right' the uglier some of the comments towards you could be become.


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## ScottThunes1960 (Apr 4, 2022)

e.g. Every sore loser played to win.


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## Celtic Frosted Flakes (Apr 4, 2022)

Those last emails proves that Kurt was right banning you.


Emperor Guillotine said:


> I've been gone and out for a few days, but there has been new correspondence. I'll drop it here in this post as I'm replying to everyone.
> 
> Kurt replied to me. And he *is *right here. The guitar is sold and gone. Nothing to be done.



Your 200 emails after this email proves that Kurt did right banning you (and now you are probably going to start a new thread claiming you only sent 60 emails and not 200 etc, and then prove it with screenshots). 

He says even if he 100 % agrees with you, the guitar is still gone. He admits he is wrong and just don't want to waste more time on this.

You will probably forever be know as the Karen of SSO because of this thread.


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## trem licking (Apr 4, 2022)

In the time you have been arguing over email, you could have ripped the frets out of a cheap classical and been on your way


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## prlgmnr (Apr 4, 2022)

Absolutely astonishing that Kurt managed to see into the future and pre-emptively ban you for this, unlucky for him that it still didn't save him from the emails.


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## olejason (Apr 4, 2022)

lmao Imagine how this dude would behave in a relationship


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## Humbuck (Apr 4, 2022)

Zzzzzz...please stop.


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## vortex_infinium (Apr 4, 2022)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I've been gone and out for a few days, but there has been new correspondence. I'll drop it here in this post as I'm replying to everyone.
> 
> Kurt replied to me. And he *is *right here. The guitar is sold and gone. Nothing to be done.
> 
> ...



The same way you cannot accept Kurts explanation based on word of mouth (word of mouth of the actual business owner).

I would like to know what exactly your 'tech coding / programming' friend did, or even his reasoning behind his explanation. Doubtful he has access to anything Reverb related or is doing, or even capable of doing anything unethical. He would have access to the same past and present information and same resource tools as anyone else in the field.

Your entire side of the argument (ex. guitars are or are not shipped immediately), which is both your opinions and your disagreement on Kurts, is based on unverified assumptions in your posts being correct. Which nobody has an answer for, not even you without evidence.


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