# Blackmachine B2



## Ziricote (Oct 24, 2016)

Hi, is this guitar rare? How many are made of this B2?


http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-INLAYS...930580?hash=item25c3c00254:g:l3UAAOSwxg5X0~fp


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## Andromalia (Oct 24, 2016)

Rofl.


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## Unleash The Fury (Oct 25, 2016)

that get rich quick scheme takes the cake. It's almost better than Jesus on that piece of toast


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## Hollowway (Oct 25, 2016)

First time I've ever seen dog inlays as a selling feature. Who doesn't want a B2 with generic dot inlays? 

It's still tough for me to get why people get so amped up by these. They're cool, but good lord there's a lot of hyperbole with them.


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## TamanShud (Oct 25, 2016)

"This will no doubt re-post all over social media and special interest forums." Apparently we're a special interest forum now  Surely full of people not worth to lay eyes upon such a creation. 

I think a $5000 upcharge for dot inlays seems quite reasonable. </sarcasm>


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## A-Branger (Oct 25, 2016)

and in top of the 20k price you still need to pay for shipping LOL


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## JMO831 (Oct 25, 2016)

OMG DOT INLAYS


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## Dcm81 (Oct 25, 2016)

TamanShud said:


> "This will no doubt re-post all over social media and special interest forums." Apparently we're a special interest forum now  Surely full of people not worth to lay eyes upon such a creation.
> 
> I think a $5000 upcharge for dot inlays seems quite reasonable. </sarcasm>



Seller's got you covered there: "Most of those who can't afford them lash out in jealousy at BM prices to make themselves feel better about themselves."



A-Branger said:


> and in top of the 20k price you still need to pay for shipping LOL



Ooh and here's one for you too: To this I say "Condolences, the bums lost. My advice to you is to do what your parents did. Get a job sir."


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## Steinmetzify (Oct 25, 2016)

Been watching this for a minute. This is his 3rd go round since I first saw it a month ago.


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## noise in my mind (Oct 25, 2016)

peanuts


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## Bearitone (Oct 25, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> Hi, is this guitar rare? How many are made of this B2?
> 
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-INLAYS...930580?hash=item25c3c00254:g:l3UAAOSwxg5X0~fp



Blackmachine guitars have a lot of hype built up around them. With all the hype you'd think they were made by wizard out of dragon bones and dipped in unicorn blood.

Yes they are rare but, no guitar is worth $20000. Period. I don't care what history or inlays it has.


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## HighGain510 (Oct 25, 2016)

RARE *dots* AND a FITTED HARDSHELL CASE?! HONEY!!! GRAB THE CHECKBOOK!  Dude is dreaming.  

I honestly don't care what these flipper people price their crap at, but the lame "reasoning" behind it combined with the attempted "put-down" of anyone who might question the ridiculous pricing of his auction are too funny to ignore. Having played a B6 and B2, I'll happily enjoy a stable full of significantly nicer guitars than buying into $20K worth of hype, thank-you very much.


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## laxu (Oct 25, 2016)

kindsage said:


> Blackmachine guitars have a lot of hype built up around them. With all the hype you'd think they were made by wizard out of dragon bones and dipped in unicorn blood.



Were these the guys who marketed not having a clearcoat as a feature at some point? All I remember is that they were one of the first with that modern minimalistic superstrat fixed bridge style with nice looking woods that is quite common nowadays.


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## wakjob (Oct 25, 2016)

A member here just sold his B6 earlier this year in the classifieds for $4500.


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## angl2k (Oct 25, 2016)

$1100 for a custom fit case. 20k for a generic superstrat. Does not include free shipping lol.


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## xzyryabx (Oct 25, 2016)

Ahh good times...there was a thread on rig-talk where engage and his buddy the underground marketer were comparing BMs to "ferraris" while EVERY other other guitar out there was a "Honda"....classic thread.


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## narad (Oct 25, 2016)

"special and old rosewood neck"

Jeez - guys are just getting lazy. "Um, you know, it's special...I can't remember the details just yet but it's definitely not just a normal rosewood neck. Trust me."


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## A-Branger (Oct 25, 2016)

yeah because and "old" rosewood neck has sooooooooooooo much tone!!


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## Nag (Oct 25, 2016)

That moment when you could buy a brand new Audi, but you buy a generic superstrat with dot inlays instead.


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## Winspear (Oct 25, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> First time I've ever seen* dog* inlays as a selling feature.



You had me really excited there


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## narad (Oct 25, 2016)

With inlays on blackmachines being so rare, this must be worth a fortune:







It's just a shame that there's such a huge disconnect between people who like hot topic t-shirts and people with a spare $20k+


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## cwhitey2 (Oct 25, 2016)

An $1100 dollar case  GTFO


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## SDMFVan (Oct 25, 2016)

narad said:


> "special and old rosewood neck"
> 
> Jeez - guys are just getting lazy. "Um, you know, it's special...I can't remember the details just yet but it's definitely not just a normal rosewood neck. Trust me."



Don't forget the "secret chambering".


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 25, 2016)

Has the top been glossed?



Hollowway said:


> It's still tough for me to get why people get so amped up by these. They're cool, but good lord there's a lot of hyperbole with them.



The bubble burst a good while ago, now that there are thousands of Blackmachines made every year across the world they lost a lot of their visual appeal. Most recent people who wanted one bought one second hand and then sold/flipped it on so there isn't much of a market now. For new ones yes, they are selling at ridiculous prices but the second hand market isn't moving much these days.


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## Edika (Oct 25, 2016)

Hmm pay a deposit for a house or buy a guitar? I wonder what the correct decision would be?

Honestly when I saw the photos this guy posted I initially thought it was one of those Chinese copies floating around lately and thought "this guy has balls". Then saw it was an actual Blackmachine and thought "oh wow this guy is like someone selling his house after the bubble burst and trying to make most of the money he overspent on something not worth that much". Yes I can't afford it but even if I could I would have bought 4 to 10 awesome guitars with that money.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 25, 2016)

hmmm buy a pile of skervesens and kiesels or one 20k guitar. Obviously the 20k guitar *sarcasm*


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## Steinmetzify (Oct 25, 2016)

Man I guess I'll be the dissenting vote here. If I had FU $ I'd give it a shot lol. I'd offer him like 16k and see what's up.


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## narad (Oct 25, 2016)

steinmetzify said:


> Man I guess I'll be the dissenting vote here. If I had FU $ I'd give it a shot lol. I'd offer him like 16k and see what's up.



But having FU $ is sort of like saying "If I could afford to value things entirely different to what they're actually valued at..."


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Oct 25, 2016)

A bargain at twice the price


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## feraledge (Oct 25, 2016)

narad said:


> It's just a shame that there's such a huge disconnect between people who like hot topic t-shirts and people with a spare $20k+








$1100 case will always be my favorite part.


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## bostjan (Oct 25, 2016)

When Blackmachine was new, I thought they were really cool. I still think that they are really cool, actually, but more $3k cool than $20k cool. 

At this point, I'm scratching my head. Is there any reason why these are worth that much?


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## kingpinMS3 (Oct 25, 2016)

bostjan said:


> When Blackmachine was new, I thought they were really cool. I still think that they are really cool, actually, but more $3k cool than $20k cool.
> 
> At this point, I'm scratching my head. Is there any reason why these are worth that much?



Doug is an amazing marketer.


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## crg123 (Oct 25, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> First time I've ever seen *dog* inlays as a selling feature. Who doesn't want a B2 with generic dot inlays?
> 
> It's still tough for me to get why people get so amped up by these. They're cool, but good lord there's a lot of hyperbole with them.



Oh man I was really hoping that wasn't a typo. Damn.


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## SonicBlur (Oct 25, 2016)

It's worth $20K, you plebs! People on the internet never lie or are completely clueless, LMAO


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## narad (Oct 25, 2016)

kingpinMS3 said:


> Doug is an amazing marketer.



Scratch that. Doug does no marketing. Misha is an amazing marketer and kids want what Periphery has.


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## Lemons (Oct 25, 2016)

kingpinMS3 said:


> Doug is an amazing marketer.



Funnily enough it's more a case of his inaction driving the prices up like crazy. He doesn't promote the brand and barely makes them anymore, whilst the hype train went crazy and anyone who already owned one was happy to sing their praises because it secured them a crazy high resale value.


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## A-Branger (Oct 25, 2016)

so there are quite a few good builders in this forum so:

1- Let get some guitars happening at a decent price for only us
2- Go to a Periphery meet and greet and take a sneaky pic of Misha holding one
3- Dont promote the brand and stop production to make it look more "rare" 
4- Have every one who bought one made a super hyped review and sing their praises
5-?????
6- re-sell them for 20K...... Profit!!!


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## Ziricote (Oct 25, 2016)

My friend says he will offer 14K for it. We will see what happens. I hope seller acdept so i can try it


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## Lemons (Oct 25, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> My friend says he will offer 14K for it. We will see what happens. I hope seller acdept so i can try it



Feel free to send me your friends phone number, I've got lots of guitars I'd love to sell for way more than they're worth.


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## noise in my mind (Oct 25, 2016)

What is this thing REALLY worth?


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## Steinmetzify (Oct 25, 2016)

Whatever someone will pay. There's supposed to be less than 50 in the world. He might get his price.


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## Ziricote (Oct 25, 2016)

noise in my mind said:


> What is this thing REALLY worth?



People say not worth 20K but the sale is open for offer and I think what they have sold for previously is good indication of possible values. Last month a B2 sold on ebay for 17K, and some guys recently paid over 18K to buy new from Doug. I wish this guitar was going for 4K, or even 12K which would be my max, but reality shows it value much higher maybe not 20K but definitely at least 14K is my opinion. But I am new to this so I don't really know. I also researched that B2 guitar have special engineering in balance and tap tone timbers. At end of day I also hear they play well with regard to neck and body profiles and whether you like or dislike they sound unique and unlike anything. Price is crazy but just like housing market in hot areas, price is based on what someone will pay. If you want it you buy it and that is what its worth. If Daemoness customs go for 5K, Jackson custom for 6K new, Vik for 6K, PRS private stock for 9K and even high spec mayones for 5K then this guitar is worth at least same as those if not more. Then factor in possibility of never being able to buy one new/rarity and you have no limits. I hear Strandberg M2M is now over 7K to order when name comes up. B2 isnt Korean made guitars. I just want to know how rare they really are


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## downburst82 (Oct 25, 2016)

What's the most there is actual account/record of one selling for? It seems there are a few B2's listed every year and they usually are asking 15-30 grand...but do they ever get it?

*edit* The post above snuck in as I was writing mine, thanks for the info.

*edit again* Just curious where do you see the one on eBay selling for 17k? It doesn't come up when I search past sold listing's?


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## Jujex (Oct 26, 2016)

For that much I'd order 3 Jackson Masterbuilts each crazier than the last one. 

We should make a game out of it.


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## ramses (Oct 26, 2016)

oh boy, it's true ... "RARE [dot] INLAYS!"


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## Hollowway (Oct 26, 2016)

There are loads of guitars that are rare. Almost any independent luthier makes "rare" guitars. And there are ebbs and flows of hype in the market. Guitars like these are risky investments because no ones knows if they will become super valuable like rare stamps or a sober reminder that hype sometimes vanishes, like the beanie babies of the 90s. I'm guilty of overpaying for instruments myself, and we each have to draw the line somewhere, but thrrrd a difference between knowing you're spending a lot of money on something just because you want it, and irrationally believing that you're buying something with powers that common sense tells you it cannot have.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Oct 26, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> these are risky investments



I think at this point anyone that drops the dosh on a B2/7/8 isn't doing it as an investment in the traditional sense of the word. 
If you buy a Doug-made Blackmachine now it's got to be because you just love those guitars, I can't really imagine anyone expecting to get a return on that investment now. That said, if I had the kind of astronomical cash required to sleep soundly spending 20 large on a guitar, I would snap this up in a heartbeat, because I'm one of those guys. 

The way I see it, it's like those guys that buy high end cars and then actually daily drive them. Somewhere out there is a dude who bought one of the Shelby Supersnakes and drove it regularly because that car was his jam, I'm sure of it.

And yeah, I saw that one sell a couple months back. That was the one with the ding by the neck pickup, treble side, right?


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> Last month a B2 sold on ebay for 17K, and some guys recently paid over 18K to buy new from Doug.



No and Yes. Let me stress, high end guitars do not sell for the asking price often. Guitars are posted on ebay to garner attention, and to get offers. Just because a guitar was on ebay one month and gone the next, doesn't mean the price on the auction is the price paid. This is one, if not THE, way that people inflate the prices of instruments, by changing the general perception of the market. Don't be a fool.

And the yes part is, yes, people pay a ton of money to Doug for a new blackmachine. For like a new, 2016 blackmachine, not an old 2005 that was original sold for something like 3k GBP.


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## bostjan (Oct 26, 2016)

Potential plot of the _Back to the Future IV_: Biff steals the Delorean in order to buy Blackmachines at a fair market price and sell them on the internet for a huge markup. Marty travels back to 2007 to stop him, but finds himself onstage during a metal show with one of them. 2007 Marty sees him and causes a rift in the time continuum, causing 2016 Marty to glitch in and out of existence whilst playing, thus creating djent music.


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## SDMFVan (Oct 26, 2016)

Value arguments aside, does anyone know what year this was built? I'm pretty surprised to see the finish sinking in like that already. Also cool to find out that one of Doug's "super secret techniques for better tone" is 3 piece tops...


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

SDMFVan said:


> Value arguments aside, does anyone know what year this was built? I'm pretty surprised to see the finish sinking in like that already. Also cool to find out that one of Doug's "super secret techniques for better tone" is 3 piece tops...



It's a 2005. But I don't think that's the cause of the "sinking" -- if you're spraying nitro, the thinnest finishes are usually considered the best. And yea, Doug always used 3 piece tops on almost all the ebony top blackmachines.


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## feraledge (Oct 26, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Potential plot of the _Back to the Future IV_: Biff steals the Delorean in order to buy Blackmachines at a fair market price and sell them on the internet for a huge markup. Marty travels back to 2007 to stop him, but finds himself onstage during a metal show with one of them. 2007 Marty sees him and causes a rift in the time continuum, causing 2016 Marty to glitch in and out of existence whilst playing, thus creating djent music.



This is the best explanation of djent: glitching deathcore plus clean singing. 

"Like"


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## Spicypickles (Oct 26, 2016)

That is hilarious.


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## Ziricote (Oct 26, 2016)

Here is apparently one of oldest Blackmachine made

http://www.ebay.com/itm/282053541781?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT


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## pylyo (Oct 26, 2016)

narad said:


> And yea, Doug always used 3 piece tops on almost all the ebony top blackmachines.



Had two of them, still got one. And both have 2 pieces tops. 
But I've played one that had a 3 piece ebony top.


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## JumpingInFire (Oct 26, 2016)

Personally, I know my playing is not worth a $20k guitar. I know that a guitar of that value will not sound better in my hands than most $2k guitars.

If an instrument is really worth this much money, I would hope it would end up in the hands of someone talented enough to fully exercise its potential. However, I imagine this kind of guitar could only be worth this much because the price makes it exclusive. The player, or non-player, that buys something like this will probably look at it as an investment.

Whether these guitars are truly something special or if it's just great marketing . . . I'll never know.


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## A-Branger (Oct 26, 2016)

JumpingInFire said:


> If an instrument is really worth this much money, I would hope it would end up in the hands of someone talented enough to fully exercise its potential. However, I imagine this kind of guitar could only be worth this much because the price makes it exclusive. The player, or non-player, that buys something like this will probably look at it as an investment.



NO!, this guitar would end up on a random Hard Rock Cafe, displayed on a wall in top of table 9 in some random latin american country tourist town


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## valvefury (Oct 26, 2016)

I believe there are less than 100 B2s ever made and less than a dozen B7s. That said I don't understand why everyone judges about the price? There are so many other guitars going for more but no one says anything. How many Gibsons? Or a PRS Dragon? Clearly a 20k guitar can't be 15k better than a 5k guitar as far as playability or stuff. But that is the same with a 2008 Les Paul you can get for 3k vs a 50s that might be over 50k? Same thing with cars? Why spend 300k or more on a car you can't drive to its potential? Does it take away from the fact that is a nice guitar? Would you get jealous and hate someone because they bought a million dollar car and put it in a garage? It's not just guitars - I've seen 10k snares do they sound better than 1k snare? What do I care - if someone has the money let them buy what they want. I worry more about the kid who takes a loan out for a 3k guitar then a guy who could afford a 10 or 20k guitar outright. We haven't even talked about houses haha


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## Ziricote (Oct 26, 2016)

JumpingInFire said:


> Personally, I know my playing is not worth a $20k guitar. I know that a guitar of that value will not sound better in my hands than most $2k guitars.
> 
> If an instrument is really worth this much money, I would hope it would end up in the hands of someone talented enough to fully exercise its potential. However, I imagine this kind of guitar could only be worth this much because the price makes it exclusive. The player, or non-player, that buys something like this will probably look at it as an investment.
> 
> Whether these guitars are truly something special or if it's just great marketing . . . I'll never know.



Nicer guitars have potential to play better, better frets works, more thought put into neck profiles and balance and will inspire you to feel better as a player which will make you have more positivity in what you do which always translate to better playing IMO


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Oct 26, 2016)

And we have our Scumbag seller of the week!!!


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> Nicer guitars have potential to play better, better frets works, more thought put into neck profiles and balance and will inspire you to feel better as a player which will make you have more positivity in what you do which always translate to better playing IMO



Do you think that blackmachine has better fretwork than any high-end $3-4k guitar? Because if so, I have a surprise for you!


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## stevexc (Oct 26, 2016)

ITT:

"is this a good purchase?"
"no"
"stop telling me how to spend my money it's a good purchase"

OP I don't care what kool-aid you're drinking there is not some magic pixie dust in this guitar that makes it play ~$15,000 BETTER than any other custom shop guitar. Or ~$19,000 better than any reasonably well-built production guitar.

If you buy it for any price know that you are spending an exorbitant amount to get in on a trend that's already passed. You could easily spend that much on two or three custom guitars decked out to the nines that would be just as high quality. The only thing that sets this one apart is that there aren't a whole ton of them out there and you'll be the envy of idiots everywhere - the "I have a Blackmachine" brag doesn't count for much these days.


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

stevexc said:


> ITT:
> 
> "is this a good purchase?"
> "no"
> ...



Yea, like seriously -- this guitar probably sold new for ~3k GBP. This seems like approximately the going rate in 2005. Paying 6x that today doesn't make the guitar magically built any better than it was in 2005. I won't tell anyone how to spend their money -- if $20k for that suits you, by all means. Just don't try objectively justifying it with things like... 

"plays better." News flash: you haven't even played it. 

"Balances better" -- a.) bull...., b.) you wouldn't know, c.) who would care anyway? Does an RG not balance well enough for you?

"Better fretwork" -- a.) you wouldn't know, b.) GTFO. If anything, it's from 2005 -- it probably has poor fretwork relative to something with brand new frets and level.

And for a mental exercise: if you can tell me why the guitar is worth $20k, tell me why it isn't worth $25k. $30k. etc.


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## bostjan (Oct 26, 2016)

It's the law of diminishing returns, I think.

A $4k guitar is really not $3.5k better than a $500 guitar, but it should be better.

A $20k guitar (particularly one that is several or a dozen thousand dollars overpriced) is not $16k better than a $4k guitar, but maybe, it is some other amount better.

The deal with these Blackmachines, as has been brought up, is that Periphery and Sikth played them and so people want them, but there are not a lot of them around. People wanting something and it not being available makes it pricey. Look at the Nintendo Wii, when Nintendo couldn't make enough of them to stock the shelves anywhere, they were going for $500-600 on eBay (not asking price, I'm talking about selling price), despite the MSRP of $250. And as soon as they were back in stock, the price plummeted back to normal.


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

bostjan said:


> A $20k guitar (particularly one that is several or a dozen thousand dollars overpriced) is not $16k better than a $4k guitar, but maybe, it is some other amount better.



I think that's where it goes awry though. You expect a $4k guitar to be better than a $3.5k guitar because the market is dictating those prices. In essence, you're casting your vote in with the lot, saying that you agree there must be some functional reason it's better than the $3.5k guitar. And that's just not guitars, that's all things.

But when things become scarce, that's not the case. A 59' burst is not "some other amount better" than any well made modern guitar. It's not even better. Like objectively, if we were doing A/Bs across hundreds of 2000-2016 Les Pauls, I'm sure the 59' Burst is not going to win the day.

The problem with people trying to rationalize $20k for a blackmachine is that they're using production-good reasoning with a luxury-good item. I actually own a ~$20k guitar, and I'm not going to claim it's any better than a bunch of $10k guitars -- not "some amount but not $10k better", strictly not better -- I paid what I paid because it took the guy a huge amount of time to make it, and he's truly one of the best in the world.


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## bostjan (Oct 26, 2016)

narad said:


> But when things become scarce, that's not the case. A 59' burst is not "some other amount better" than any well made modern guitar. It's not even better. Like objectively, if we were doing A/Bs across hundreds of 2000-2016 Les Pauls, I'm sure the 59' Burst is not going to win the day.



But there are people who have money and disagree with you.  In this case, it's kind of a weak argument, since someone out there with enough money to buy a '59 Les Paul, thinks that a '59 Les Paul is some amount better than a 2016 Les Paul. I don't like Les Paul guitars, personally (I like the former guitarist names Les Paul quite a lot, though), but I think there may well be a general consensus amongst Les Paul players that a '59 is better than a 2016.



> The problem with people trying to rationalize $20k for a blackmachine is that they're using production-good reasoning with a luxury-good item. I actually own a ~$20k guitar, and I'm not going to claim it's any better than a bunch of $10k guitars -- not "some amount but not $10k better", strictly not better -- I paid what I paid because it took the guy a huge amount of time to make it, and he's truly one of the best in the world.



I could give you this argument, and in fact I want to, but you make it difficult. If you paid that much because he is one of the best...then the guitar should be, in some way, made better. If not, it wouldn't matter if it was made by one of the best or not.


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

bostjan said:


> But there are people who have money and disagree with you.  In this case, it's kind of a weak argument, since someone out there with enough money to buy a '59 Les Paul, thinks that a '59 Les Paul is some amount better than a 2016 Les Paul. I don't like Les Paul guitars, personally (I like the former guitarist names Les Paul quite a lot, though), but I think there may well be a general consensus amongst Les Paul players that a '59 is better than a 2016.



That's simply not true. Sure, maybe some of the guys that spend that money actually think they're better, but there are many guys who are burst owners that openly admit that other guitars they have sound better. People want them because they're the original iconic rock guitar.



bostjan said:


> I could give you this argument, and in fact I want to, but you make it difficult. If you paid that much because he is one of the best...then the guitar should be, in some way, made better. If not, it wouldn't matter if it was made by one of the best or not.



Because I like his artistry and it was a custom unusual-spec project, I know he'd do it proper. But there's just not anything that a lot of $10k builders aren't doing that he could do better if you paid them more. There are limits on these things.


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## bostjan (Oct 26, 2016)

narad said:


> A 59' burst is not "some other amount better" than any well made modern guitar.





bostjan said:


> In this case, it's kind of a weak argument, since someone out there with enough money to buy a '59 Les Paul, thinks that a '59 Les Paul is some amount better than a 2016 Les Paul.





narad said:


> That's simply not true. Sure, maybe some of the guys that spend that money actually think they're better


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

^^ There's guys on TGP that own or owned bursts and openly admit that they prefer other guitars, is the point. I can't speak for everyone.

If I had 2 million dollars+, I'd own a 59'. It doesn't mean I'd think it'd be better than a few Gustavssons. Surely that's not hard to understand?


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## bostjan (Oct 26, 2016)

narad said:


> ^^ There's guys on TGP that own or owned bursts and openly admit that they prefer other guitars, is the point. I can't speak for everyone.
> 
> If I had 2 million dollars+, I'd own a 59'. It doesn't mean I'd think it'd be better than a few Gustavssons. Surely that's not hard to understand?



Narad, you tend to often use phrases like "That's simply not true," when you address my posts, whether you disagree with what I am saying or not, and that is, frankly, what confounds me. Not that I mean to keep count, but this is the third time I recall you doing that in past few months.


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## narad (Oct 26, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Narad, you tend to often use phrases like "That's simply not true," when you address my posts, whether you disagree with what I am saying or not, and that is, frankly, what confounds me. Not that I mean to keep count, but this is the third time I recall you doing that in past few months.



Well it's not like I'm keeping tabs. And hard to imagine I'd use it if I agreed?

...but it's simply not true that if someone buys a burst (say for $250k) that they must believe the guitar is a better instrument than the modern $5-10k equivalent. There's a lot of issue not related to playability or its virtues as an instrument that push that cost up, as there are with blackmachines, and that is my point.


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## bostjan (Oct 26, 2016)

narad said:


> Well it's not like I'm keeping tabs. And hard to imagine I'd use it if I agreed?
> 
> ...but it's simply not true that if someone buys a burst (say for $250k) that they must believe the guitar is a better instrument than the modern $5-10k equivalent. There's a lot of issue not related to playability or its virtues as an instrument that push that cost up, as there are with blackmachines, and that is my point.



But that's not what I said. You quoted me, then said, "That's simply not true."

Whatever the case, if no one pays the asking price, the asking price is too high, otherwise someone values the item as worth equal to or more than the asking price. And that much is simple. Worth more is equivalent to "better," in the eyes of the buyer.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Oct 26, 2016)

Yup.
Definitely a Blackmachine thread.


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## Jeffbro (Oct 26, 2016)

valvefury said:


> I believe there are less than 100 B2s ever made and less than a dozen B7s. That said I don't understand why everyone judges about the price? There are so many other guitars going for more but no one says anything. How many Gibsons? Or a PRS Dragon? Clearly a 20k guitar can't be 15k better than a 5k guitar as far as playability or stuff. But that is the same with a 2008 Les Paul you can get for 3k vs a 50s that might be over 50k? Same thing with cars? Why spend 300k or more on a car you can't drive to its potential? Does it take away from the fact that is a nice guitar? Would you get jealous and hate someone because they bought a million dollar car and put it in a garage? It's not just guitars - I've seen 10k snares do they sound better than 1k snare? What do I care - if someone has the money let them buy what they want. I worry more about the kid who takes a loan out for a 3k guitar then a guy who could afford a 10 or 20k guitar outright. We haven't even talked about houses haha



post count = 1
lol @ comparing blackmachines to 50s les pauls and PRS dragons
you realize basically no one outside of this forum even knows or cares about these guitars

clueless seller confirmed


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## Mattykoda (Oct 26, 2016)

That case got a grenade launcher attachment?


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## Humbuck (Oct 26, 2016)

stevexc said:


> ITT:
> 
> "is this a good purchase?"
> "no"
> ...



Yet people still want them...


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## Humbuck (Oct 26, 2016)

pylyo said:


> Had two of them, still got one. And both have 2 pieces tops.
> But I've played one that had a 3 piece ebony top.



I would highly value knowing exactly what you thought of them and Blackmachines in general!!


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## Humbuck (Oct 27, 2016)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Yup.
> Definitely a Blackmachine thread.



Why? Nobody is getting personal? Clearly people want to talk and know about them? 

Regarding this kind of thread constantly getting automatically nuked...no disrespect to forum mods, but doesn't this add to and deepen the hype?


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## xzacx (Oct 27, 2016)

narad said:


> Well it's not like I'm keeping tabs. And hard to imagine I'd use it if I agreed?
> 
> ...but it's simply not true that if someone buys a burst (say for $250k) that they must believe the guitar is a better instrument than the modern $5-10k equivalent. There's a lot of issue not related to playability or its virtues as an instrument that push that cost up, as there are with blackmachines, and that is my point.



This is simply true. It's possible to buy an expensive guitar just because you want it, can afford it, and that's the going rate. Maybe you just like the way it looks. Maybe you appreciate the way it's built from scratch by a single luthier. Maybe you buy into the hype and want to be able to say you have it. There are a lot of reasons people spend big money on a guitar. Point is, most people doing it realize that they aren't objectively getting something proportionally better than something half the price.

Personally, I wouldn't spend that kind of money on a Blackmachine. They mean nothing to me, and the artists that made them "cool" basically make them "uncool" to me. But a Gustavsson or Yaron? I've had/have both, and never once thought I was buying something objectively better that something a fraction their cost - but the things that I appreciate about them made them worth it for me.


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## noise in my mind (Oct 27, 2016)

Who (the player) made these guitars so popular anyways?


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## sawtoothscream (Oct 27, 2016)

noise in my mind said:


> Who (the player) made these guitars so popular anyways?



Only people I have seen were Misha and nolly from periphery.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 27, 2016)

Pin from Sikth was the first guy who made them popular. Thats why everyone wanted one WAY before Misha.


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## noise in my mind (Oct 27, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Pin from Sikth was the first guy who made them popular. Thats why everyone wanted one WAY before Misha.



I had a nice conversation with that guy a few months ago outside a venue. Super nice guy!


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## pylyo (Oct 27, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Pin from Sikth was the first guy who made them popular. Thats why everyone wanted one WAY before Misha.



Exactly.
And that's why I've been dreaming about one since 2006. I still remember the original BM web site from back then, there were pics of Thordendal testing one 8 string, among others and some chicks with tele-style BM (or was it SG?), together with Diezel amps, all happening in some tenda-like booth.


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## SDMFVan (Oct 27, 2016)

It should also be mentioned that the idea of Blackmachines being worth $15k+ is a proven false economy. A few people bought up a bunch at normal pricing and then took advantage of Doug's slow output and the fact that they controlled a decent portion of the market to drive the price through the roof. It lasted for awhile, they made a bunch of money and now it's plummeting back to reality. 

It's similar in a lot of ways to the diamond market: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rohin-dhar/diamonds-are-bull...._b_3708562.html


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## narad (Oct 27, 2016)

Gotta love Francisco's buy a blackmachine, publish article explaining why the blackmachine is worth $20k+, sells blackmachine.


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## valvefury (Oct 27, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> post count = 1
> lol @ comparing blackmachines to 50s les pauls and PRS dragons
> you realize basically no one outside of this forum even knows or cares about these guitars
> 
> clueless seller confirmed



The carbon cases range anywhere form 500-1500 depending on options. 

The fact that no one here knows about the guitar only verifies the silliness of all the judgement. 90% of those that commented never even played a guitar above 6k.


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## narad (Oct 27, 2016)

valvefury said:


> The carbon cases range anywhere form 500-1500 depending on options.



So where's the other $10k in the markup come from?



valvefury said:


> The fact that no one here knows about the guitar only verifies the silliness of all the judgement. 90% of those that commented never even played a guitar above 6k.



How come the only guys who touting how much they should be worth are the guys who sell them?


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## remus1710 (Oct 27, 2016)

i don t know about others but i would choose a PRS Private Stock over a Blackmachine anyday...


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## Ziricote (Oct 27, 2016)

I observe both sides. I see guys who own Blackmachine say they are amazing guitars and worth the price they paid. Yes they want to protect investment but almost all of them today own the guitar because they truly enjoy it and can afford it, not for investment. Then I see guys who never play one talking about how the high prices have come and gone. I see no evidence of pricing not valid today. I feel this side does it for jealousy, because they cannot understand and also because they think their opinion in this thread and this forum can dictate and lower prices in the market. Your opinion on this thread by you who have never played and cant afford does not have power to dictate prices for such guitars does it? I wish Blackmachine B2 was affordable for me but I dont think guys who never played one or cannot afford one have the power to bring the prices down. I see demand as strong as ever was. This guitar will sell. Dear seller please accpet my friends 14K when he makes it. Thanks


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## narad (Oct 27, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> I observe both sides. I see guys who own Blackmachine say they are amazing guitars and worth the price they paid. Yes they want to protect investment but almost all of them today own the guitar because they truly enjoy it and can afford it, not for investment. Then I see guys who never play one talking about how the high prices have come and gone. I see no evidence of pricing not valid today. I feel this side does it for jealousy, because they cannot understand and also because they think their opinion in this thread and this forum can dictate and lower prices in the market. Your opinion on this thread by you who have never played and cant afford does not have power to dictate prices for such guitars does it? I wish Blackmachine B2 was affordable for me but I dont think guys who never played one or cannot afford one have the power to bring the prices down. I see demand as strong as ever was. This guitar will sell. Dear seller please accpet my friends 14K when he makes it. Thanks



I'm like 100% sure you don't have a friend making a $14k offer on the guitar because the last thing a friend would want you to do is publicly post the price of an offer. That would just give other potential buyers an advantage (your goal in this thread to incite such guys ? / Imply to the world that people will actually pay $14k for a used blackmachine from 2005?)


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## valvefury (Oct 27, 2016)

remus1710 said:


> i don t know about others but i would choose a PRS Private Stock over a Blackmachine anyday...



I have had a few PRS PS that had to be returned or sold as the intonation was off. They are great eye candy 100% of the time but not playable really.


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## valvefury (Oct 27, 2016)

VALUE is really simple and not up for argument as it is completely subjective. Items are worth whatever they sell for or what anyone is willing to pay. And it is a fact that BMs have sold for over 10k for a while. New ones are 15k if you can get on a list and wait 3+ years. Some used BMs have sold for over 25k. So value is really in the eye of the beholder.

If you don't agree with that value that is your prerogative however to belittle anyone who wants to spend their own money on ANYTHING is judgemental, fiscally racist and immature. 

There are a handful of people that can afford these. But I don't see those guys making fun of guys who love their 500 dollar guitars. 

As the lyrics for Metallica go "Judge not lest ye be judged yourself"


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## valvefury (Oct 27, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> I observe both sides. I see guys who own Blackmachine say they are amazing guitars and worth the price they paid. Yes they want to protect investment but almost all of them today own the guitar because they truly enjoy it and can afford it, not for investment. Then I see guys who never play one talking about how the high prices have come and gone. I see no evidence of pricing not valid today. I feel this side does it for jealousy, because they cannot understand and also because they think their opinion in this thread and this forum can dictate and lower prices in the market. Your opinion on this thread by you who have never played and cant afford does not have power to dictate prices for such guitars does it? I wish Blackmachine B2 was affordable for me but I dont think guys who never played one or cannot afford one have the power to bring the prices down. I see demand as strong as ever was. This guitar will sell. Dear seller please accpet my friends 14K when he makes it. Thanks



Agreed


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## bostjan (Oct 27, 2016)

valvefury said:


> I have had a few PRS PS that had to be returned or sold as the intonation was off. They are great eye candy 100% of the time but not playable really.



That's shenanigans. You don't return a guitar because the intonation is off, you set the intonation.  If your strings go out of tune, do you cut them all off and replace them? If your car needs an oil change, do you trash it and get a new one?!



valvefury said:


> VALUE is really simple and not up for argument as it is completely subjective. Items are worth whatever they sell for or what anyone is willing to pay. And it is a fact that BMs have sold for over 10k for a while. New ones are 15k if you can get on a list and wait 3+ years. Some used BMs have sold for over 25k. So value is really in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> If you don't agree with that value that is your prerogative however to belittle anyone who wants to spend their own money on ANYTHING is judgemental, fiscally racist and immature.
> 
> ...



I'm not going to disagree with your overall point, but "racist?!"


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## valvefury (Oct 27, 2016)

bostjan said:


> That's shenanigans. You don't return a guitar because the intonation is off, you set the intonation.  If your strings go out of tune, do you cut them all off and replace them? If your car needs an oil change, do you trash it and get a new one?!



Hehehe - "fiscally racist" had a good ring to it though

If the frets were put in wrong, and they put the bridge on wrong. If some frets are higher or lower. If the necks are put on wrong or warped. All these things were wrong with PRS PS's I've had. ANY flaw in a 10k+ guitar is unacceptable. 

ANY BM I have played are flawless in form, fit and function.


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## Ziricote (Oct 27, 2016)

I agree PRS is eye candy and made to a great quality but they are some of the least "playable" guitars for me. But Ive never spent too much time with high end PRS, just what I tried in stores. All I hear from actual BM owner is that they fit what people want when they pay high prices for them, and only after they get them is they confirmed of this. Next on my list is high spec Mayo, Vik and japanese Strandberg since I accept BM is too high price for me


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## A-Branger (Oct 27, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> I agree PRS is eye candy and made to a great quality but they are some of the least "playable" guitars for me. But Ive never spent too much time with high end PRS, just what I tried in stores. All I hear from actual BM owner is that they fit what people want when they pay high prices for them, and only after they get them is they confirmed of this. Next on my list is high spec Mayo, Vik and japanese Strandberg since I accept BM is too high price for me



funny thing is that you can get all those 3 guitars by the price this BM is selling for and still have some money left. Plus 3 high end guitars who would play the same as the BM

thats what we are talking about, the stupid high price. Any good reputable luthier today can make an awesome guitar who would play same if not better as that 20k BM, plus it can be made with better materials, at your specs. Even if the other guy pays 14k, you still are paying for a NAME, and all that "this guitars plays like nothing else" talk is all in your head trying to justify the fanboy of the price


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## feraledge (Oct 27, 2016)

> Fiscally racist



/forum


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## SDMFVan (Oct 28, 2016)

valvefury said:


> I have had a few PRS PS that had to be returned or sold as the intonation was off. They are great eye candy 100% of the time but not playable really.



Thanks for confirming you're completely full of sh-t.


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## valvefury (Oct 28, 2016)

SDMFVan said:


> Thanks for confirming you're completely full of sh-t.



Very specifically I've owned (at one time or another) 4 PRS Private Stocks. Three I custom ordered with my specifications. One of those (I custom ordered) was returned for repair - and they couldn't fix the problem.

I don't know you and have never met you so I don't know why you would attack my character.


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## valvefury (Oct 28, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> funny thing is that you can get all those 3 guitars by the price this BM is selling for and still have some money left. Plus 3 high end guitars who would play the same as the BM
> 
> thats what we are talking about, the stupid high price. Any good reputable luthier today can make an awesome guitar who would play same if not better as that 20k BM, plus it can be made with better materials, at your specs. Even if the other guy pays 14k, you still are paying for a NAME, and all that "this guitars plays like nothing else" talk is all in your head trying to justify the fanboy of the price



But that is the point of the discussion. In many situations you are paying for a "name"but no one is complaining about that. Generic medications? Cars? Paying to living in a "certain" neighborhood. Paying to go to a better school? Is Harvard that much better than a school (Harvard is 45k a year and Penn State 17k - is Harvard 28k better)? People BUY what they WANT to buy at the PRICE they deem fit to pay for it. Who is ANYONE to judge how ANYONE spends their money?

This isn't an argument of quality - everyone here is smart enough to know that Blackmachine is a fine guitar just like other fine guitars out there. It is NOT a discussion of whether a 20k guitar sounds 16k better than a 4k guitar. This post started because people flip out at paying this much for a particular guitar. 

As I stated early in the free market system the ceiling for an items value is as high as anyone willing to pay it. Why call the person a sucker who buys that 20k guitar? Why would you judge that person? The only the only possibilities I see why someone would bash this is 1 - they don't understand the free market system 2- they are jealous 3- they are trying to drive prices down for their own benefit or 4- plain ignorance (meaning they just never learned about this). Maybe the guy who buys it is a dot.com billionaire and to him that guitar would be like you buying a pair of drumsticks you won't use much. 

Why would I care what people make and what people spend and what they spend their money on? I just pay attention to all the things I have to do be more successful in my life. Anytime I spend in judgement and ignorance is really wasteful potentially productive time.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 28, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> thats what we are talking about, the stupid high price. Any good reputable luthier today can make an awesome guitar who would play same if not better as that 20k BM, plus it can be made with better materials, at your specs. Even if the other guy pays 14k, you still are paying for a NAME, and all that "this guitars plays like nothing else" talk is all in your head trying to justify the fanboy of the price



Price/hype/supply & demand/readily available clones etc aside they are incredible instruments. I've played 4 and all were ridiculously good. The amount of work Doug put into those guitars was crazy and the koa B2 I played was one, if not the best guitar I've ever played.


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## narad (Oct 28, 2016)

valvefury said:


> Maybe the guy who buys it is a dot.com billionaire and to him that guitar would be like you buying a pair of drumsticks you won't use much.



Maybe the dot.com billionaire pays $50 for a glass of water. What the dot.com billionaire pays for things is not an accurate interpretation of the market. I'm not saying some billionaire won't come along and buy the blackmachine for $20k, but that's really a completely ludicrous statement as it justifies any price for any good, and is about as likely as me winning the lottery. Actually statistically speaking, less likely than that.

Moreover, people saying that something is "worth what someone is willing to pay for it" are not looking at the market like an economist when applying that phrase to precedent prices. For instance, let's say a guy buys a blackmachine for $25k. There are now 3 people who want a blackmachine and have a substantial amount of money to spend. They are each willing to spend respectively:
A. $8k
B. $10k
C. $20k

A blackmachine comes up for sale. Potential buyer C makes his maximum offer, and it's accepted. Buyer C now owns a blackmachine. He grows tired of it, puts it on the market and says, "This blackmachine is worth at least $20k, as people have previously spent this much on blackmachines." How much is the blackmachine worth?

This is basically the blackmachine market right now. The distribution over how much people are willing to spend on luxury items is often very peaky, meaning that high prices are unsustainable when the peak market distribution becomes saturated. 

Some factor needs to decrease peak market saturation to maintain inflated prices, but Doug is a.) making more blackmachines, b.) almost all the guys I know who had any interest have already owned one and moved on, leaving less potential buyers, and c.) endorsers have all moved on to other things. Bulb even compared his Juggernaut sig to his blackmachine FFS.


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## Steinmetzify (Oct 28, 2016)

Fun read


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## Maniacal (Oct 28, 2016)

I purchased my 8 string Black Machine a few years before the hype. By far the best 8 string I have played. Nothing else comes close. 
And the B6 I have is also a great instrument. 

I have been fortunate enough to try several of Dougs own guitars over the years... incredible.


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## SDMFVan (Oct 28, 2016)

valvefury said:


> Very specifically I've owned (at one time or another) 4 PRS Private Stocks. Three I custom ordered with my specifications. One of those (I custom ordered) was returned for repair - and they couldn't fix the problem.
> 
> I don't know you and have never met you so I don't know why you would attack my character.



Because this statement: "They are great eye candy 100% of the time but not playable really." indicates a distinct lack of experience with PS guitars. I'm not saying they haven't sent out a dud, but I know for a fact that above all else PS guitars are extremely playable. I have several very close friends on the PS team (I had dinner with 3 of them last night), and I know how seriously they take what they do. I'd be interested to know what number PS you had that couldn't be fixed. 

Anyway, sorry to derail the thread.


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## Humbuck (Oct 28, 2016)

I've played B6's, but never seen a B2. I will sooner or later!


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## Sermo Lupi (Oct 28, 2016)

Maniacal said:


> I purchased my 8 string Black Machine a few years before the hype. By far the best 8 string I have played. Nothing else comes close.
> And the B6 I have is also a great instrument.
> 
> I have been fortunate enough to try several of Dougs own guitars over the years... incredible.



Nice! I still remember the Flight of the Bumblebee video you did with that thing, haha. Great technique, by the way! 

I guess these threads can be boring to some because they hash out all the usual arguments, but for what it's worth I do enjoy watching the Blackmachine legacy progress. I've never had the chance to play one to see what the fuss is all about, but whether or not the hype is justified is one of the least interesting things about Blackmachine in my opinion. 

I guess what it boils down to is that I don't really care that the quality/value/magic of these guitars might be a myth, I just enjoy that the reputation itself is mythic. It's something so rare, to have an item so unequivocally praised, and for that thing to be a modern shred guitar of all things (in a marketplace where, for a long time, only vintage gear had that sort of "aura"). No doubt people would trash the brand if the guitars became more widely available--even Ferrari and Patek Philippe get bad reviews sometimes. But for now, if we're only talking about the opinions of owners and players, the Blackmachine reputation is still pretty flawless. And it is easy to say that the reputation is undeserved--that it's either cultivated by sommelier-types or 14-year olds fantasising on the internet--but from a social perspective I think it's interesting that it exists at all. Cool to think that "legendary" craftsmen can still exist even in this day and age.


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## valvefury (Oct 29, 2016)

SDMFVan said:


> Because this statement: "They are great eye candy 100% of the time but not playable really." indicates a distinct lack of experience with PS guitars. I'm not saying they haven't sent out a dud, but I know for a fact that above all else PS guitars are extremely playable. I have several very close friends on the PS team (I had dinner with 3 of them last night), and I know how seriously they take what they do. I'd be interested to know what number PS you had that couldn't be fixed.
> 
> Anyway, sorry to derail the thread.



Let me rephrase...

PRS Private Stocks have a significant eye candy factor. A PRS PS in my opinion is over priced and they don't hold their value. If you buy a new one and go to sell it you will loose 40% easy - that's about 4-5k off the top.

I sold my PRSs and have pictures and serial numbers but this will be last place I'd share that information.

I am not saying PRS PS are junk - just that at that price point they have a high eye candy factor. I was a huge PRS guy until the past 3 years or so and I've discovered that other people make better guitars for less money.


----------



## theoctopus (Oct 29, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> Next on my list is high spec Mayo, Vik and japanese Strandberg since I accept BM is too high price for me



Hi Alain. You were skating by relatively unrecognized to most, I'd imagine, until this statement. It was a good show while it lasted.


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## narad (Oct 29, 2016)

theoctopus said:


> Hi Alain. You were skating by relatively unrecognized to most, I'd imagine, until this statement. It was a good show while it lasted.



Blackmachine owners coming into blackmachine threads to talk up blackmachine prices. You wanna know why hype drove blackmachine prices up 5-fold in the span of a few years? Tactics like these.


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## Cloudy (Oct 29, 2016)

narad said:


> Blackmachine owners coming into blackmachine threads to talk up blackmachine prices. You wanna know why hype drove blackmachine prices up 5-fold in the span of a few years? Tactics like these.



Yeap 

This could not be more obvious. Wont see me offering 20k for a blackmachine anytime soon, hope they fall to a 4 figure value like they should be.

I owned a B6 and while it was a great guitar paying anything over 3,500$ for it would be absolutely insane.


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## Rawkmann (Oct 29, 2016)

valvefury said:


> I was a huge PRS guy until the past 3 years or so and I've discovered that other people make better guitars for less money.



I think 'better' at that price point is subjective. There may be guitars that excel at certain things more than a PRS, but I'd put a Private Stock against just about anything quality wise.


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## laxu (Oct 29, 2016)

valvefury said:


> I am not saying PRS PS are junk - just that at that price point they have a high eye candy factor. I was a huge PRS guy until the past 3 years or so and I've discovered that other people make better guitars for less money.



Isn't eye candy exactly the reason why you buy a Private Stock model in the first place? If you don't care about that then I doubt the regular models are much worse. Whether that eye candy is worth 2 or 3x the price of a normal model is a whole another thing.


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## TheKindred (Oct 29, 2016)

narad said:


> Blackmachine owners coming into blackmachine threads to talk up blackmachine prices. You wanna know why hype drove blackmachine prices up 5-fold in the span of a few years? Tactics like these.



Every time one of these threads pop up, the most vocal supporters are almost always exclusively people who signed up that day or have a 0-30 post count. Hyping dat hype.


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## You (Oct 29, 2016)

TheKindred said:


> Every time one of these threads pop up, the most vocal supporters are almost always exclusively people who signed up that day or have a 0-30 post count. Hyping dat hype.



Blackmachine is nicknamed Hypemachine for a well supported reason.


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## Humbuck (Oct 29, 2016)

narad said:


> Blackmachine owners coming into blackmachine threads to talk up blackmachine prices. You wanna know why hype drove blackmachine prices up 5-fold in the span of a few years? Tactics like these.



Is *Ziricote* supposed to be a B2 owner...is that what you guys are implying?

The comments on here and similar web forums don't and won't effect B2 selling prices...even if it is from owners of them. You're thinking too highly of yourselves if you think it does. 

Look at how many people comment on vintage 'Burst prices and how ridiculously high they are, going on about how they would never pay that and they're not worth it, etc etc. You really think you're effecting the market? It's come up as an example in this very thread. Do you think Joe Bonamassa, Billy Gibbons, Jimmy Page, Mark Knopfler, Joe Perry, Slash, etc etc etc care about what you think of burst prices?

It doesn't work like that. They go for what they go for because people want them and there aren't many around.

There was supposed to be something like 1600 or 1700 original bursts produced. Supposedly they have traded hands for as much as 1 mil US. There have only been a handfull of B2's ever made with no sign of production increasing. There's just not enough B2's around, especially the really fancy ones. Supply and demand. They will each get the price someone is willing to pay at the time (if they ever come up for sale even) and you have no effect on it.


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## feraledge (Oct 29, 2016)

Apples to oranges here. Forums like this made Blackmachine the hype and directly are responsible for the price. These aren't bursts. As has been said, the laughs come from bolstering the perceived value of the guitars by attempting to laugh off loads of indisputably awesome ones. And a reminder that selling prices determine market value, not asking prices.


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## theoctopus (Oct 29, 2016)

I'm not making a comment on the value of the instrument. I'm laughing at the fact that Alain thinks he's being smooth.


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## Humbuck (Oct 29, 2016)

The internet gave them the hype. Their rarity gets them their price.


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## Possessed (Oct 30, 2016)

narad said:


> Gotta love Francisco's buy a blackmachine, publish article explaining why the blackmachine is worth $20k+, sells blackmachine.



Haha, that article is truly full of BS


----------



## Humbuck (Oct 30, 2016)

Possessed said:


> Haha, that article is truly full of BS



Article?


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## narad (Oct 30, 2016)

Humbuck said:


> Is *Ziricote* supposed to be a B2 owner...is that what you guys are implying?



Yes. We're implying that the guy who one page back said,

"I wish Blackmachine B2 was affordable for me but I dont think guys who never played one or cannot afford one have the power to bring the prices down. I see demand as strong as ever was. This guitar will sell."

Literally owns multiple blackmachines and has been able to afford buying directly from Doug. 

We're implying that the guy that said,

"Dear seller please accpet my friends 14K when he makes it. Thanks"

Actually knows the seller, who is also posting in this thread, and has no friend offering $14k. I think you can imagine the seller's probably hoping for some $15k offers.



Humbuck said:


> The comments on here and similar web forums don't and won't effect B2 selling prices...even if it is from owners of them. You're thinking too highly of yourselves if you think it does.



Dude, there aren't many blackmachines. How many can you think of? Now let's think of who here owned/own blackmachines: Misha, Nolly, Quinny, Reidar, Francisco, Fred, Alain, SteveK, and a number of other guys I don't really know by name but see on FB and frequent here. SSO is practically the entire blackmachine market.



Humbuck said:


> Look at how many people comment on vintage 'Burst prices and how ridiculously high they are, going on about how they would never pay that and they're not worth it, etc etc. You really think you're effecting the market? It's come up as an example in this very thread. Do you think Joe Bonamassa, Billy Gibbons, Jimmy Page, Mark Knopfler, Joe Perry, Slash, etc etc etc care about what you think of burst prices?



This is just silly. A blackmachine isn't --the most iconic guitar ever made, inspiring an entire generation of blues,rock guitar players, in the hands of artists that even your mom would know by name. The only thing that share is value inflation from rarity and association with notable artists, except in the case of blackmachine, it's entirely within the subgenre of prog metal, and all example artists have moved on to other instruments already.


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## You (Oct 30, 2016)

All of you are actually GIVING blackmachine hype by discussing and arguing about its price and quality.


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## narad (Oct 30, 2016)

You said:


> All of you are actually GIVING blackmachine hype by discussing and arguing about its price and quality.



I think it's negative hype when the two most outspoken participants in the thread are revealed to be blackmachine owners pretending to be guys "wishing they could afford one". You don't have to try to deceive people like that when there's actually a good market for the instrument you're selling.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 30, 2016)

You said:


> All of you are actually GIVING blackmachine hype by discussing and arguing about its price and quality.



Thats always how its been, look at threads from nearly 9 years ago on various forums. Always the same discussion about price and quality.


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## Ziricote (Oct 30, 2016)

ok Im very lost on this thread now I dont get it 

I just want to know how many B2 are made because I hear different stories. Someone say over 50+ made but why I only see two for sale in one whole year then? If prices go low then why dont people sell when they can? I am very confused on this this guitars and this threads with so many different opinions. Its weird


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## Humbuck (Oct 30, 2016)

"All of you are actually GIVING blackmachine hype by discussing and arguing about its price and quality."


No we're not...we're discussing the phenomenon, that's all. This leads to more truth and correct information and less rumor. Hide it and restrict it and it get's worse.


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## Humbuck (Oct 30, 2016)

narad said:


> Dude, there aren't many blackmachines. How many can you think of? Now let's think of who here owned/own blackmachines: Misha, Nolly, Quinny, Reidar, Francisco, Fred, Alain, SteveK, and a number of other guys I don't really know by name but see on FB and frequent here. SSO is practically the entire blackmachine market.
> 
> 
> 
> This is just silly. A blackmachine isn't --the most iconic guitar ever made, inspiring an entire generation of blues,rock guitar players, in the hands of artists that even your mom would know by name. The only thing that share is value inflation from rarity and association with notable artists, except in the case of blackmachine, it's entirely within the subgenre of prog metal, and all example artists have moved on to other instruments already.



You don't even understand what I wrote...dude. Btw, you are the most outspoken participant in this thread.


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## narad (Oct 30, 2016)

Humbuck said:


> You don't even understand what I wrote...dude. Btw, you are the most outspoken participant in this thread.



You compared the inability of people commenting about burst prices to effect burst prices, which are desired world wide, probably the #1 most desired guitar with a huge number of reasons for their appeal, and the outcome of a 60 year ramp-up, most sought after by guys close to retirement with tons of cash

to

The inability of people commenting in this forum on blackmachine prices to effect blackmachine prices, which are desired forum-wide, on this forum -- exactly where they were first promoted and hyped up, in a niche genre, largely desired by Periphery fans.

So whatever man.


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## Rawkmann (Oct 30, 2016)

narad said:


> The inability of people commenting in this forum on blackmachine prices to effect blackmachine prices, which are desired forum-wide, on this forum -- exactly where they were first promoted and hyped up, in a niche genre, largely desired by Periphery fans.
> 
> So whatever man.



I'm almost certain that I wouldn't have any idea what a Blackmachine is if I wasn't a member on these forums.

Even so, they don't hold any appeal to me personally. If I had that much coin I'd pick out a Suhr, Anderson, PRS, and Vigier, and just buy one of each.


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 30, 2016)

I'm surprised there's still this mystique around the brand, they do not have any unique tonal qualities that 16k+ can't achieve with any other high end guitar. Sorry, no amount of mystery chambering will validate that claim they are priced this way because of owners gradually pushing up the listing price of their guitars, and the curious caving to try these things.

Playability can be replicated, similar neck shape, setup can all be achieved on just about any guitar you want. There is no proof out there comparing Blackmachines to other guitars to substantiate that they sound better, it's all just people spreading around information with no verifiable source. The Blackmachines I have owned/played were great, they're solid guitars but not anywhere near better than my Suhrs/Blackwaters/Mayones.


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## Miek (Oct 30, 2016)

narad said:


> I think it's negative hype when the two most outspoken participants in the thread are revealed to be blackmachine owners pretending to be guys "wishing they could afford one". You don't have to try to deceive people like that when there's actually a good market for the instrument you're selling.



I wish I could be one of those assholes right now.


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## bostjan (Oct 31, 2016)

It's a free market. If somebody wants to list a BM for $20k, they are free to do so. Also, I have a really rare 1992 Schwinn Sidewinder Bicycle that can be yours for only $15k, but I'm accepting offers.


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## Maniacal (Oct 31, 2016)

I would never sell my Black Machines. I know how much doing so (for a huge profit) pisses Doug off.


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## ncfiala (Oct 31, 2016)

These threads are hilarious. If I had any of these guitars I would sell them in a heartbeat and cash in before it's too late. The Blackmachine name will be all but forgotten in a decade or two, and probably far sooner.


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## bostjan (Oct 31, 2016)

ncfiala said:


> These threads are hilarious. If I had any of these guitars I would sell them in a heartbeat and cash in before it's too late. The Blackmachine name will be all but forgotten in a decade or two, and probably far sooner.



Just like Manson guitars in the 1990's.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 31, 2016)

ncfiala said:


> These threads are hilarious. If I had any of these guitars I would sell them in a heartbeat and cash in before it's too late. The Blackmachine name will be all but forgotten in a decade or two, and probably far sooner.



Not a chance. People were saying BM would be forgotten years ago and the prices have quadrupled since then with 1000+ clones made across the world every year. The open market for older builds may have dropped but interest in Doug's direct builds is still there and newer second builds are still selling for crazy amounts. 



Ziricote said:


> I just want to know how many B2 are made because I hear different stories. Someone say over 50+ made but why I only see two for sale in one whole year then?



I did a rough count a while ago, I'll see if I can dig it up.

"Doug started building B2s over ten years ago so there could be 50 +. Since he builds mostly for friends it means pics of most Blackmachines are never put up on the net so its immposible to know. 

There are roughly 10-15 B7s, 5 B8s and 5 FF8s."


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## bostjan (Oct 31, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Not a chance. People were saying BM would be forgotten years ago and the prices have quadrupled since then with 1000+ clones made across the world every year. The open market for older builds may have dropped but interest in Doug's direct builds is still there and newer second builds are still selling for crazy amounts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1000+ every year?!


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## Electric Wizard (Oct 31, 2016)

bostjan said:


> 1000+ every year?!


Definitely, Ibanez makes at least 1000 RGs every year.


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## bostjan (Oct 31, 2016)

Electric Wizard said:


> Definitely, Ibanez makes at least 1000 RGs every year.



Ok, jokes aside, the RG predates the BM by a couple decades, and I really don't see many BM copies in the real world. Maybe they are all kept tucked away somewhere.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 31, 2016)

bostjan said:


> 1000+ every year?!



Maybe a bit too high actually but count every hypemachine, Neko, raptor, aliexpressmachine and countless other small builder BM clones, I see at least 5-10 every week on instagram or FB.


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## wannabguitarist (Oct 31, 2016)

You said:


> Blackmachine is nicknamed Hypemachine for a well supported reason.



Also happens to be the name of Ormsby's shameless copies that are not copies


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## valvefury (Nov 2, 2016)

narad said:


> Maybe the dot.com billionaire pays $50 for a glass of water. What the dot.com billionaire pays for things is not an accurate interpretation of the market. I'm not saying some billionaire won't come along and buy the blackmachine for $20k, but that's really a completely ludicrous statement as it justifies any price for any good, and is about as likely as me winning the lottery. Actually statistically speaking, less likely than that.
> 
> Moreover, people saying that something is "worth what someone is willing to pay for it" are not looking at the market like an economist when applying that phrase to precedent prices. For instance, let's say a guy buys a blackmachine for $25k. There are now 3 people who want a blackmachine and have a substantial amount of money to spend. They are each willing to spend respectively:
> A. $8k
> ...



I follow the logic some but the bottom line is a guitar is worth what someone will pay for it.


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## theoctopus (Nov 2, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> "There are roughly 10-15 B7s, 5 B8s and 5 FF8s."



That's the kind of building experience I like to put my money behind!


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## narad (Nov 2, 2016)

valvefury said:


> I follow the logic some but the bottom line is a guitar is worth what someone will pay for it.



Of course it's worth what someone will pay for it, but the problem arises when people treat what someone _has_ paid for it as a good indication of what someone will pay for it.


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## bostjan (Nov 2, 2016)

narad said:


> Of course it's worth what someone will pay for it, but the problem arises when people treat what someone _has_ paid for it as a good indication of what someone will pay for it.



What someone has paid for it ~ anecdote.
What people typically pay for it ~ data.
Small number of pieces from a builder ~ small data set.

On the other hand,

What you or I think of the price of a piece of gear neither of us intend to buy ~ conjecture.

So if I say I'd be really surprised if someone pays 18-20kUSD for a B2, that's a weak statement, but if you say that it's clearly not going to sell for that price, it's a strong statement, but, aside from the amount of certainty, it's really the same statement. 

People saying that $20k for a B2 is reasonable, because there are so few B2's out there are also making a stretch, since, well, for one, no one is buying this piece, and, for two, there are estimated 50+ B2's out there. It's not like Kelly's Blue Book of Guitars has a price on Blackmachine B2's listed (TBH I haven't looked, though). But their statement is a conjecture, and my statement is a conjecture. It's all conjecture until someone buys the thing.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 2, 2016)

If anyone cares I found a list me and a few others made a while ago:

Fanned Fret 8 strings: 5
Recent Spalted Maple on the site
Ebony Top with EMGs
1 piece Quilt Top with Cocobolo Board(was at Musikmesse)
Spalted Maple with zebrano board(On the site)
Burl Maple(Misha used to own)

Straight Scale 8 strings: 5
Ebony Top 2 pickups close together
Ebony Top with EMGs
Ebony top with Bubinga Board on the site
Ebony Top with passives
Red? top with two truss rods, Can't find much info

B7s: 7
Koa top and koa fretboard
Camphor Burl with Cocobolo fretboard(On the site)
Spalt Maple(was at Musikmesse)
Ebony Top with dot inlays and ABM saddles
Ebony Top
Flame Inlays up and down fretboard
Quilt Maple that Fred used to own(was at Musikmesse)

B2s:
Nolly Quilt Top
Nolly's old burl maple Top and ziricote board
Misha's Koa
Francesco's Spalt B2
Koa top and Blackwood fretboard
Koa top and cocobolo fretboard(was at Musikmesse)
Another Koa top(never seen pics)
Burl Maple top and Limba back
Spalt Maple top and streaky ebony board
1 piece quilt top
Ebony top and maple board
Bog Oak
Snakewood fretboard with Mahogany Body
Snakewood neck and burl top(on the site)
Snakewood neck with sapele body
Snakewood
Ebony with Flame Inlay on 12th fret
Ebony with Flame Inlay on 12th fret(there were two)
Ebony with full Flames
Ebony with Island on 12th fret
Ebony with Dot Inlays
Ebony with Dot Inlays treble side
Ebony with B inlay
Ebony with Brown streak below the pickups
Ebony with no binding
Ebony with ivoroid binding
Ebony with swamp ash body, no binding
Mahogany Body and Brazillian Rosewood Fretboard
Spalt Beech with Zebrano Board(On the site)
Spalt Maple with Zebrano Board
Sapele Mahogany with 12th fret Dots
Left Handed Ebony B2
Pin's mahogany B2 with treble side dot inlays
Pin's ebony B2

Then the tele and SG, not sure how many of them there are.

There are loads more ebony B2s and more BMs which Doug built for friends so there are no pictures so there could be more B7s and B8s.


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## Humbuck (Nov 2, 2016)

Excellent info! THAT is why these threads are good...real information! Thanks Lorcan!


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## valvefury (Nov 2, 2016)

Humbuck said:


> Excellent info! THAT is why these threads are good...real information! Thanks Lorcan!



Double that - good job Lorcan!


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## narad (Nov 2, 2016)

The SG is up for grabs as well:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/15k-Extreme...541781?hash=item41abb37f95:g:oFEAAOSwzgRWwm7H


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## angl2k (Nov 3, 2016)

narad said:


> The SG is up for grabs as well:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/15k-Extreme...541781?hash=item41abb37f95:g:oFEAAOSwzgRWwm7H



Those protruding screw heads on the back plate make me cringe


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## xzacx (Nov 3, 2016)

angl2k said:


> Those protruding screw heads on the back plate make me cringe



What about the surface-mounted selector plate, when the volume cavity is flush-mounted?


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## Henry Terry (Nov 15, 2016)

I understand why someone would pay $ 20,000 for a Blackmachine B2, or more.

About 12 years ago, I visited Mandolin Brothers in Staten Island, New York. The store had a room full of vintage guitars, and I picked up a 1930 Martin OM-18 that was priced at $ 29,000. At the time, I owned a Martin OM-18V that I liked very much. To me, there was something really special about holding and playing the 1930 Martin, and if I could have afforded spending $ 29,000 for a guitar I would have bought it.

I stumbled upon the existence of Blackmachines in an article that mentioned the brand in passing while discussing something else, and I was intrigued by the name, so I went to the website. I thought (and still do) that they were awesome looking guitars, and I was charmed by the fact that they were "handmade in London" by a guy working alone.

I have never seen a Blackmachine. I do not know if I would buy one after playing one, but if I liked it and could afford it, I would buy it for $ 20,000. Sometimes, owning something that is very special to you is worth whatever the cost.


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## A-Branger (Nov 15, 2016)

Henry Terry said:


> I understand why someone would pay $ 20,000 for a Blackmachine B2, or more.
> 
> About 12 years ago, I visited Mandolin Brothers in Staten Island, New York. The store had a room full of vintage guitars, and I picked up a 1930 Martin OM-18 that was priced at $ 29,000.




for a guitr from the 1930s I could understand it too. From the vintage point, brand, just the fact that it was made at that point in time where guitars werent that popular like they are now, and even more than the guitar manage to survive in good quality after 86 years.

but a guitar built in 2005? no way. Yes, it migh have accomplish a "rare collectible" status thanks to things previously mention here, but not the same 20k price of a 86yrs old instrument


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## narad (Nov 15, 2016)

Yea, wake me up when it's 2090 and we'll see if a blackmachine justifies many multiples of its original price when it's properly collectable.


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## Steinmetzify (Nov 15, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> for a guitr from the 1930s I could understand it too. From the vintage point, brand, just the fact that it was made at that point in time where guitars werent that popular like they are now, and even more than the guitar manage to survive in good quality after 86 years.
> 
> but a guitar built in 2005? no way. Yes, it migh have accomplish a "rare collectible" status thanks to things previously mention here, but not the same 20k price of a 86yrs old instrument





narad said:


> Yea, wake me up when it's 2090 and we'll see if a blackmachine justifies many multiples of its original price when it's properly collectable.



You guys are ageists. I'm telling.


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## Humbuck (Nov 20, 2016)

angl2k said:


> Those protruding screw heads on the back plate make me cringe



You'd never notice they were there as they have no effect on comfort.


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## Jeffbro (Nov 20, 2016)

Humbuck said:


> You'd never notice they were there as they have no effect on comfort.



Never played guitar without a shirt on?

Also I could name a hundred things that have no effect on comfort, but still make a guitar look cheap


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## xzacx (Nov 20, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> Never played guitar without a shirt on?
> 
> Also I could name a hundred things that have no effect on comfort, but still make a guitar look cheap



Like the back of a EBMM JP model with FIVE different cavities...plus the neck plate. The plastic/metal-to-wood ratio is about 1:1 on those. No impact on comfort, but sure looks ugly and unrefined.


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## A-Branger (Nov 21, 2016)

xzacx said:


> Like the back of a EBMM JP model with FIVE different cavities...plus the neck plate. The plastic/metal-to-wood ratio is about 1:1 on those. No impact on comfort, but sure looks ugly and unrefined.



Its all about weight relief and "chambering"


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## Snarpaasi (Nov 21, 2016)

Never realized how fugly EBMM JP back looks like.


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## Humbuck (Nov 21, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> Never played guitar without a shirt on?
> 
> Also I could name a hundred things that have no effect on comfort, but still make a guitar look cheap



Although there is a lot of complaining about hype and price out there, I've never heard many people saying Blackmachine's look cheap.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 22, 2016)

People just used to give out about the bare wood and oil finish looking cheap. Now thick gloss painted guitars are considered cheap looking.


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## narad (Nov 22, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> People just used to give out about the bare wood and oil finish looking cheap. Now thick gloss painted guitars are considered cheap looking.



Yea, the flame inlays weren't helping anything either.


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## Lozek (Nov 22, 2016)

Ziricote said:


> Here is apparently one of oldest Blackmachine made
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/282053541781?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT



There was bunch before it. Blackmachine No1 was a tele, there was another couple of tele's, one of which had the same laser cut flame inlays as the B2 that was posted on here, a few B2's. Pin from Sikth was already playing a B2 and Doug made this for Dan before he started playing PRS. This SG then got passed on to Steve Sears of 'Cry for Silence' who also featured V-Man on guitar, the current Slipknot bassist.











You can tell early Blackmachines as they were ridiculously thin.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 22, 2016)

narad said:


> Yea, the flame inlays weren't helping anything either.



Yeah, no doubt about that!


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## Ordacleaphobia (Nov 23, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if those two were ever recovered?


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## Lozek (Nov 23, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> If anyone cares I found a list me and a few others made a while ago:
> 
> Fanned Fret 8 strings: 5
> Recent Spalted Maple on the site
> ...



5 tele's and 2 SG's that I know of.


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## cmtd (Nov 28, 2016)

Not to hijack this thread, but can anyone tell me about the process with getting a B6? I have emailed feline 4 times now, over a span of several months and have yet to get a reply.


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## noise in my mind (Nov 30, 2016)

The bridge looks soooo warn out. This can't help his insane asking price.


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## Djentlyman (Dec 1, 2016)

cmtd said:


> Not to hijack this thread, but can anyone tell me about the process with getting a B6? I have emailed feline 4 times now, over a span of several months and have yet to get a reply.



I was under the impression that Feline will make a couple batches at a time and it's first in best dressed. I tried to get my hands on one a couple years ago when the Facebook post was only up for a couple minutes and I had missed out. There were only a handful of guitars made too 

Maybe someone else can answer your question better just my 2 cents


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 2, 2016)

I think there's a long waiting list at the moment for B6s. They've slowed down production on them a lot the last year or so too. Occasionally a few will pop up for sale on their FB.


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## narad (Jan 27, 2017)

And here we are all the way down to $10k asking price for a B2:

https://reverb.com/item/4065783-authentic-blackmachine-b2-2005-black-machine


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