# Superstrat recommendations: Jackson SL2 Pro vs ESP M-II vs what else?



## andriusd (Aug 22, 2014)

I'm thinking of buying a superstrat and what is important to me is that it was in the range of 1200-2000 USD (new only), had a neck that's thinner than a '59 Les Paul (which is uncomfortable for me), all tuners on the headstock were on one side (like Stratocaster, as opposed to Gibson layout of tuners). Of course, build quality is very important to me. Also, I prefer passive pickups, but active pickups can be replaced so... Bolt-on or Neck-Thru Floyd rose or Strings thru - all are acceptable to me. I'm only looking for info on acceptable options and then I'm going to go and try them, see how they feel. So far these are what I see as possible options:

* Jackson Soloist SL2 PRO ( SL2 Pro Series Soloist )

* ESP MII ( E-II M-II FM ACSB - The ESP Guitar Company )

* maybe some Charvel So-Cal, San Dimas or Super Stock.

* Ibanez RG Prestige 655 or 652FX ( Electric Guitars RG - RG655 Prestige | Ibanez guitars )

1) I'm looking for suggestions of similar guitars.

2) I've heard Charvel is connected to Jackson guitars, so it's interesting to hear what are the differences between SL2 and the aforementioned Charvel models in terms of build quality and comfort.

3) Considering SL2 is made (like I was told) in Mexico and ESP M-II made in Japan, is there a difference in build quality?

4) SL2 uses Floyd Rose 1000 Series and ESP M-II uses Floyd Rose Original - which one of them is considered better and more durable (because Floyd Rose bridges tend to wear down, right?)?

5) Ibanez RGs are made out of basswood. I've done some reading in the past and I found some people say that Stratocasters made out of basswood tend to be fragile in the area where the bridge is mounted (due to the bridge being moved). Is that true and how does that affect the durability of Ibanez guitars? My brother actually has a basswood MIJ Stratocaster and I can see that the area around one of the bridge mounting screws is slightly ruined, as if the screw is getting ripped out.


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## s4tch (Aug 22, 2014)

- Charvel and Jackson brands are both owned by Fender, and as far as I know, the guitars are made in the same facilities. Build quality is pretty close on those.
- The Original Floyd Rose (OFR) is the mother of all floating trems. Ibanez Edge/Lo-Pro Edge and some Schaller, Gotoh trems match the durability of the OFR, but the 1000 series are inferior to those. If I had to pick one of these, it would probably be the Lo-Pro.
- MIJ ESPs are known for their impeccable build quality. I've seen some Mexi-made Pro-series Jacksons, and those looked very nice, too.
- The materials used in MIJ Ibanez guitars are usually of pretty high quality. I have a '87 RG made of basswood (pics here), and it is still a killer guitar, the body resonates like nothing I've ever had.

It's really a hard choice. I have a sweet spot for Jackson necks (that neck profile and the compound radius always work), all my MIJ Ibbies were super reliable and I always managed to get at least decent tone out of those, Charvels are The Superstrats for me, and you can't go wrong with an ESP either. I'd surely take the Jackson if it was made in Japan, but as things stand now, I'd pick the 652. It looks just stellar with the sparkly orange finish, and unlike most previous Prestige models, it also has great pickups out of the factory, too.


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## Talmaci (Aug 22, 2014)

I have two ESPs MII made in 2000-2001 (Japan and USA) and need to say that MII is a crazy instrument. Japanese MII is no worse than USA.
So my vote is for ESP.


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## Zado (Aug 22, 2014)

For that price I guess you can get a Schecter USA production California custom pro (or even elite).Custom shop quality and very nice looking stuff

Schecter USA Custom Shop CET in Aqua Burst w/Case &ndash; Bulldog Guitars

Schecter USA Custom Shop California Pro in Metallic Purple w/Case &ndash; Bulldog Guitars

Schecter USA Custom Shop California Custom Elite in Sunset Burst w/Cas &ndash; Bulldog Guitars

Schecter USA California Custom Elite (Black Violet) | The Axe Palace

Schecter USA California Custom Elite (Sunset Burst) | The Axe Palace


as well as what you can see here

USA PRODUCTION MODELS

or configurate here
Configurator

The quality,for what I've heard,is outstanding


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## Talmaci (Aug 22, 2014)

So ugly schecters...


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## guitarmadillo (Aug 22, 2014)

ESP or Ibby


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## andriusd (Aug 22, 2014)

I accidentally found this page ESP M-II: ESP M-II Maple - Black | Sweetwater.com
It's so weid this M-II costs so much (the original price before the discount) and has Seymour Duncan pickups. There's no such a guitar in the M-II series page on ESP site: Products - M Series Guitars - The ESP Guitar Company
How can that be, considering it's on its way to the store (that is it's not an old stock or anything)?


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## bouVIP (Aug 22, 2014)

That ESP M-II is a discontinued model with the old ESP logo. All the ESP Standard Series models have the E-II logo now.

Also I highly recommend going the ESP route! The OFR is an amazing tremolo and the neck profile is thin and easy to play. Top quality too.


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## andriusd (Aug 22, 2014)

Thanks for the explanation. Now that I have registered at ESP.com, I can see the price, and the price for E-II M-II is:
$2,558.00 discounted to $1,599.00. I thought M-II originally costs around 1500 USD. Any ideas why they are at discounted prices at the moment and how long they are going to keep the discount? Because I can't afford to pay 2500 USD.


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## bouVIP (Aug 22, 2014)

That $2,558 price is just the MSRP. The actual going prices for stores selling the M-II are the $1,599.00 price so you don't have to worry about paying more than that. You could also get a 10-15% discount depending on where you order from.


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## JD27 (Aug 22, 2014)

If you haven't noticed ESP also offers ST-1 and ST-2 models with FRs that are also strat shapes.


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## stevexc (Aug 22, 2014)

The "full price" is MSRP, the "discounted" price is street price. Unless they do price changes in the future, which almost guaranteed won't be a solid $1000 increase, it'll stay at the $1599 until next NAMM when they introduce the new lineup (and even then it may still stay the same).

Musician's Friend and Sweetwater have it for the same price. What price it'll actually be in your town (Lithuania, if I'm not mistaken?) will most likely be quite different, you'll have to check local dealers. ESP only sells straight from their site to within the US.


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## Veritech Zero (Aug 22, 2014)

I haven't every played an E-II M-II, but if they are like just about anything else by ESP they are great guitars as well. If you want to go a little cheaper the MIM Charvels aren't bad guitars. They have what I have found to be the most comfortable neck ever made, but be warned, they will require a little work to get them up to the E-II standard (fret touch up and shim the floyd bridge to match the compound radius), the access for the truss rod is also no where near as convenient as it is in the ESP. The Jackson may be in the same boat as the Charvel, most ~$1000 (or less) Jacksons with standard Floyds need the saddles shimmed to fit the compound radius and I haven't seen one yet that hasn't needed a little fretwork, but just like the Charvel, with a little work it would also make an awesome guitar. Between the options you've given to me it would make the most sense to get the one that comes in the finish you like with pickups you wouldn't need to swap out, once you hit your price range there aren't a whole lot of options that won't deliver.

As for basswood bodies, I think the particular bridge is what matters. If it is a vintage style screw in tremolo I can see the softer basswood stripping in time with just little screws holding it in, but I've got several basswood bodied guitars with floyds, which have much larger studs to hold the bridge in, and have never once had an issue. Plus I really like the sound of a good basswood body  A little thinner than say Mahogany, but the mid range really cuts through great.

Edit: Just looking around, have you considered the Caparison C2 series? I hear they are pure awesome, and I'm definitely GASing hard for one right now.


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## Mik3D23 (Aug 22, 2014)

s4tch said:


> but the 1000 series are inferior to those.




You know, I occasionally run across people who say this. But I never see any basis for it. What makes you say this? As far as I know, the only difference is the 1000 series is made in Korea, but otherwise they are the exact same specs and materials


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## Andromalia (Aug 22, 2014)

If you have the buidget for a MII, get a MII. My best non custom instrument is an ESP and it rivals my customs in terms of playability. I own a standard series and a CH custom ESP, their common point is they feel "solid", like, nothing is going to move without your saying so. I got both of them used so I can't say really about new ones, as mine came with little dings and stuff. Fretwork was perfect on both.
Neck through or bolt on is your preference, both are greats and the bolt on isn't inferior in any way.


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## andriusd (Aug 23, 2014)

JD27 said:


> If you haven't noticed ESP also offers ST-1 and ST-2 models with FRs that are also strat shapes.



At first I only wanted a pointy headstock, but I think other types will do for me too. On paper they look like they share most of their of characteristics with M-II. Apart from those 3 differences in their description, is there anything else different between Sts and MII? Do their necks feel the same?




Zado said:


> For that price I guess you can get a Schecter USA production California custom pro (or even elite).Custom shop quality and very nice looking stuff



I'll check them out, thanks!




Veritech Zero said:


> Just looking around, have you considered the Caparison C2 series? I hear they are pure awesome, and I'm definitely GASing hard for one right now.



To tell you the truth, even if that's not wise, I want all the tuners to be on one side


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## andriusd (Aug 23, 2014)

stevexc said:


> What price it'll actually be in your town (Lithuania, if I'm not mistaken?) will most likely be quite different, you'll have to check local dealers.



Thanks for explaining the prices! Lithuania is a very small country with a very little guitar market and no guitar shop currently carries any higher end ESP or Ibanez guitars and I'm not even sure they'd order it for me. So I'll probably have to order it online somewhere (which sucks a big time, because I would really love to try a couple guitars out).




Veritech Zero said:


> As for basswood bodies, I think the particular bridge is what matters. If it is a vintage style screw in tremolo I can see the softer basswood stripping in time with just little screws holding it in, but I've got several basswood bodied guitars with floyds, which have much larger studs to hold the bridge in, and have never once had an issue.



Yes, the one I was talking about had a vintage two screw bridge. Thanks for pointing that out!



Would it be a problem replacing M-II pickups to passive ones?


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## andriusd (Aug 23, 2014)

Does LTD KH-602 have the same neck as M-II? I could try it out at a local shop and if the neck's the same, I'd know if M-II's my thing.


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## andriusd (Aug 23, 2014)

At this point I am throwing in Fender Stratocaster American Standard/Deluxe in my mix of options.

A couple more questions:
1) I can't check ESP out in local stores (they don't carry them), and I might be able to check some cheaper Ibanez, and I think I'll be able to check some Fenders out. So I won't know the feeling of ESP neck, but I might be able to compare them in my mind and draw some conclusions if I check Ibanez and Fender out and know some more details about ESP.
Stratocaster has a "Modern C shape" neck ( American Deluxe Strat® Plus HSS | Stratocaster® Electric Guitars | Fender® Guitars ) while ESP M-II has "Thin U". Maybe someone with experience could try to describe the difference between those two? Is the so-called "Thin U" thinner or fatter than Fender's "Modern C"? And what about Jackson's "Speed Neck"? What kind of shape is that?
Maybe someone could post E-II M-II's and SL2's neck thickness at the first and 12th fret? Ibanez has these specs on their site:
Thickness at 1st: 17mm
Thickness at 12th: 19mm


2) Ibanez RG 655 has a neck radius of 430mm ( Electric Guitars RG - RG655 Prestige | Ibanez guitars ), which means it's FLATTER than 305mm ESP neck, right?


3) The problem is, it seems like E-II's are virtually not available in Europe. Most online guitar stores, when I choose ESP, give me a couple of really expensive ESPs and then the rest of the list is ESP LTD. I barely managed to find E-II M-II at one store, but it's overpriced (1500 GBP, which close to 1,5 times the US price). I could ask my brother to buy it in the USA and send it to me (to avoid paying import taxes - for a guitar that the taxes have already been paid for with the initial payment!), but he's not a guitar expert, so... I'm going to have to trust ESP quality standards and the guitar shop (that it checks their guitar before sending out). So maybe someone could recommend a online place to buy it? Is the official ESPguitars.com a reliable source? Do they check their guitars before sending out? Someone has posted a complaint on their forum that they have received a guitar with several minor faults TWICE from them and the customer service didn't care much for it (they offered to replace the guitar, though - but that's not an option for me as the price of postage and the risk of damage in transit is too great).

4) How's ESP quality nowadays, considering I am not talking about those $3,500 and up guitars (who can afford that anyway? ), but the cheapest E-II series that don't even bear ESP logo?

BTW, What's up with ESP prices? Japanese guitars used to be better build AND cheaper than US ones. Nowadays a "real" ESP (they've removed an ESP logo from E-II, and although it's a MIJ, that means it's not considered a serious product worth the brand logo by ESP) prices start with $3,500, while Fender American Stratocasters start with approximately $1,300, which people say are really good - and American made always adds to the price. I mean, aren't Japanese-made guitars supposed to be cheaper than US-made ones and rival their quality? And it's Fender we're talking about, and their quality seems to be great (according to people on the forums), as opposed to Gibson. And now a cheapest "true" Japanese made ESP is two times the price of a US-made Fender...


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## stevexc (Aug 24, 2014)

andriusd said:


> At this point I am throwing in Fender Stratocaster American Standard/Deluxe in my mix of options.
> 
> A couple more questions:
> 1) I can't check ESP out in local stores (they don't carry them), and I might be able to check some cheaper Ibanez, and I think I'll be able to check some Fenders out. So I won't know the feeling of ESP neck, but I might be able to compare them in my mind and draw some conclusions if I check Ibanez and Fender out and know some more details about ESP.
> ...



Fender's "modern c" is just a huge lie. I've played many Fenders, all with allegedly the same "modern c" profile, none of which had similar feeling necks. However, overall the ESP neck is a good bit thinner than the Fender neck - although the Strat neck is closer to it than the Tele neck. I can't speak to the Jackson neck, though.



andriusd said:


> 2) Ibanez RG 655 has a neck radius of 430mm ( Electric Guitars RG - RG655 Prestige | Ibanez guitars ), which means it's FLATTER than 305mm ESP neck, right?



This is an incorrect understanding - that's not the neck radius but the FRETBOARD radius. This has NOTHING to do with the neck profile. The Ibanez fretboard radius is flatter than the ESP radius, but this is separate from the flatness of the neck profile. Illustrative diagram of fretboard profile:







Coincidentally, the Ibanez neck profile is flatter than the ESP profile:






While that diagram isn't using actual Ibanez or ESP necks, the Ibanez neck is closer to D Shape, while the ESP neck is closer to the U or C shapes.



andriusd said:


> 3) The problem is, it seems like E-II's are virtually not available in Europe. Most online guitar stores, when I choose ESP, give me a couple of really expensive ESPs and then the rest of the list is ESP LTD. I barely managed to find E-II M-II at one store, but it's overpriced (1500 GBP, which close to 1,5 times the US price). I could ask my brother to buy it in the USA and send it to me (to avoid paying import taxes - for a guitar that the taxes have already been paid for with the initial payment!), but he's not a guitar expert, so... I'm going to have to trust ESP quality standards and the guitar shop (that it checks their guitar before sending out). So maybe someone could recommend a online place to buy it? Is the official ESPguitars.com a reliable source? Do they check their guitars before sending out? Someone has posted a complaint on their forum that they have received a guitar with several minor faults TWICE from them and the customer service didn't care much for it (they offered to replace the guitar, though - but that's not an option for me as the price of postage and the risk of damage in transit is too great).



Yes, you're going to get screwed on price. That's the upside to living in North America, guitars are cheaper. Typically in Europe they more-or-less take the American price and change the currency - a $1,500 USD guitar is typically going to cost around 1,500 GBP. And it'll wind up being close to that if you import it yourself. 

I don't think ESP will sell direct out of the US, though. Check through their International Dealers page, I found at least one Lithuanian dealer.



andriusd said:


> 4) How's ESP quality nowadays, considering I am not talking about those $3,500 and up guitars (who can afford that anyway? ), but the cheapest E-II series that don't even bear ESP logo?



As good as it's ever been in the past decade.



andriusd said:


> BTW, What's up with ESP prices? Japanese guitars used to be better build AND cheaper than US ones. Nowadays a "real" ESP (they've removed an ESP logo from E-II, and although it's a MIJ, that means it's not considered a serious product worth the brand logo by ESP) prices start with $3,500, while Fender American Stratocasters start with approximately $1,300, which people say are really good - and American made always adds to the price. I mean, aren't Japanese-made guitars supposed to be cheaper than US-made ones and rival their quality? And it's Fender we're talking about, and their quality seems to be great (according to people on the forums), as opposed to Gibson. And now a cheapest "true" Japanese made ESP is two times the price of a US-made Fender...



"that means it's not considered a serious product worth the brand logo by ESP" Incorrect. It means it's not made in their custom shops. They now have 2 ESP lines - ESP USA, which is guitars made in their USA custom shop, and ESP Original which is made in their Japanese custom shop. E-IIs are still made in Japan, and LTDs are made in Korea, Indonesia (although they may have ended that), and China depending on the level. They're all "serious products" and great for the price. Japanese guitars used to be better and cheaper because people preferred buying American (driving the price up) and it was primarily handmade guitars coming out of Japan. Nowadays buying American doesn't mean as much - it's more of a global market.

Where a product is made means less and less these days. Yeah, you can pay $1,500 and get an "american-made Fender" but at the end of the day it's still just a mass-produced instrument. It's the QC of the factory and/or the specific shift that pumped 'em out. Korea and Mexico are putting out some instruments that put Fender's lower-end American ones to shame - LTD Deluxe series, PRS SE series, and Schecter's imports to name a few.

Either way you're comparing to a handmade, custom-shop ESP to an assembly-line Fender - it's not going to do you any good. The E-IIs are exactly the same as the ESP Standard series from the last couple years. Compare the features of an American Standard/Deluxe to an E-II, not to an ESP Original. If you find an AmStd/Dlx that blows an ESP USA/Original out of the water it's a fluke - they're built to far different standards.


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## andriusd (Aug 24, 2014)

Thank you for your extensive comments, Stevexc.



stevexc said:


> Either way you're comparing to a handmade, custom-shop ESP to an assembly-line Fender - it's not going to do you any good. The E-IIs are exactly the same as the ESP Standard series from the last couple years. Compare the features of an American Standard/Deluxe to an E-II, not to an ESP Original. If you find an AmStd/Dlx that blows an ESP USA/Original out of the water it's a fluke - they're built to far different standards.



Alright, got it. So what's your opinion on E-II M-II vs American Standard/Deluxe build quality-wise?



stevexc said:


> Fender's "modern c" is just a huge lie. I've played many Fenders, all with allegedly the same "modern c" profile, none of which had similar feeling necks.



But I suppose most manufacturers use necks of different shapes and thickness on their models and don't go into details when describing them online, or is that no so? I mean, ESP labels some of their necks "Thin U" - does that mean they will feel exactly the same (if the radius is the same)?




stevexc said:


> Check through their International Dealers page, I found at least one Lithuanian dealer.



If that's under Intl Distributors, then that is actually an Estonian distributor (not so far away, though) and they don't seem to have a lot of ESPs.


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## andriusd (Aug 24, 2014)

Jackson SL2 Pro would be a very strong contender if it wasn't for this mystery about its quality. It's MSRP is less than half than that of ESP E-II M-II. It makes me assume Pro series Jackson must be using lower quality wood or something. It has nicer pickups in my opinion and I think compound radius fretboard is a bonus, but as not an expert, I look at the price and think it just can't be right. I don't know...


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## andriusd (Aug 26, 2014)

Double post, sorry.


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## stevexc (Aug 26, 2014)

- I'd take the E-II any day, I've found Fender to be WAY too inconsistent in terms of build quality and feel. However, that's on average - there are definitely examples of American Standards/Deluxes out there that blow an E-II out of the water. The unfortunate part is that you have to hunt them out. I would NEVER order a Fender online, at least a non-CS one.

- ESP tends to be pretty consistent in their neck profiles. I own an H-1001 from around '07, and a few weeks ago picked up an MH-1000 instore - as expected, the necks felt almost identical.

- The Jackson is made in Indonesia as opposed to Japan or America - cost of labour is so much cheaper there that they can offer it for almost half the price. Hardware is equivalent, though - whether you prefer SDs or EMGs doesn't matter, they're both on the same level of quality. The bridge is essentially the same, both the same components, just the Jackson's is assembled in Korea(?). Technically a step down, but in theory should be equivalent.

You're overthinking things by a LOT.


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## Edika (Aug 26, 2014)

I had an opportunity to try a Jackson SL2 Pro and wasn't impressed. Other people seemed to have a different opinion so it seems there is a difference in quality. If you go for these be sure to try them out to see if you like them and pick a solid colour because the veneer isn't that great so it's extra money for nothing.

I tried a friends Fender American deluxe and it was a really good guitar so it is a good consideration.


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## andriusd (Sep 5, 2014)

So I bought an Edwards Snapper superstrat (which is a cheaper version of the Japanese ESP Snapper) which on paper has a slightly thicker neck than the M-II. After trying Fender American Strat I found that I am not really comfortable with that neck thickness and Ibanez was slightly too flat for me. Somehow I really wanted the M-II - mostly for its looks - but I figured Snapper is a bit more versatile and therefore better for me.

I'd like to get a Jackson Soloist sometime in the future (as a second guitar), but from what I read, quality-wise, Pro series just doesn't seem to be Pro. Also, I have doubts about woods being used for a guitar of this price. I think current Pro series shouldn't be labelled Pro and they should introduce a proper Pro series which could compete with guitars like the M-II from E-II series, for people who can afford to get a quality non-custom shop instrument.


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