# Death Metal versus Brutal Death Metal?



## DXL (May 10, 2015)

Some of the bands that I've seen labeled as brutal death metal just don't seem to be much more "brutal" than regular death metal. Maybe it's just because I've been desensitized to brutality but what exactly is the difference?


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## gunch (May 10, 2015)

more gorey and slammy


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 10, 2015)

Just someway to describe themselves so they can stand out, I guess. A lot of death metal I've heard described as "brutal death metal" sound like... death metal*. 

*Note: I'm talking out my ass, and there's most likely a difference between the two.


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## Alex Kenivel (May 10, 2015)

Where the Light Death Metal at?


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## TRENCHLORD (May 10, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Where the Light Death Metal at?



Less filling but it still sounds great!!!


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## beyondcosmos (May 10, 2015)

I'd say as example..... 

A band like Origin is brutal death metal (it's tech death, but I'm gonna go on a limb and say it's brutal death as well).

A band like Obscura is more 'death metal'. They're really progressive/technical death metal, but I wouldn't label them as brutal.

The whole 'brutal' labeling is silly to me too, but there definitely is a difference in terms of what bands emphasize in their music. I tend to like the more progressive or melodic stuff myself.


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## TheHandOfStone (May 10, 2015)

Basically, it's the difference between  and 

Hope that helps.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 10, 2015)

I hate genre labels anyways. Like "death" metal for example. It suggests that it's all just about killing and dying .


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## The Mirror (May 11, 2015)

"Brutal" Death Metal? Things exist I never knew about. Seems to be no loss, though...


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## demorior (May 11, 2015)

all about life metal.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 11, 2015)

I also don't understand why most brutal/energetic metal isn't called power-metal (makes me feel powerful, at least for a couple minutes), and why all that stuff in the power-metal genre isn't called opera-metal.


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## kamello (May 11, 2015)

one is brutal, the other isn't, duuuh


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## pushpull7 (May 11, 2015)

I'm only interested in post brutal death metal.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 11, 2015)

pushpull7 said:


> I'm only interested in post brutal death metal.



Well that stuff is just an afterthought.


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## Sumsar (May 11, 2015)

Well if you are immature and afraid that your music is not metal enough you call it brutal death metal. Mature people just call their music death metal .. or even just metal.

I find that bands labeled as brutal death metal is often a lighter version of death metal, but overproduced with 16 layers of lead vocal and a squashed to death mix that makes it sounds more "brutal".


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## Dayn (May 11, 2015)

I have a feeling I'm the only one who envisages brutalist architecture, yet sees that as a perfect metaphor for brutal death metal.


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## pushpull7 (May 11, 2015)

TRENCHLORD said:


> Well that stuff is just an afterthought.



Sorry, I'll call it post AFTERTOUGHT brutal death metal.

Thanks folks, I'm here all week!


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## HANIAK (May 11, 2015)

...just wait until you listen to "ultra brutal death metal"...


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## Glass Cloud (May 11, 2015)

I've heard people call bands brutal death metal because they are too klvt to call them deathcore or admit their music has chuggy breakdowns.


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## vilk (May 11, 2015)

OK, lets set the record straight here.

The first stuff that people called "death metal" was glorified thrash. Bands like Death or Possessed were releasing music since like 82 or something.

So in the early-mid 90's when bands like Cryptopsy started getting big, obviously there's a large gap between Death and Cryptopsy, the later being infinitely heavier and more br00tal

So that's where we get_ brutal death metal_ from. I'd say like at least most of the "regular" death metal that's being made these days would have been called "brutal" death metal if it had been released in a different era. 

tmyk


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## pushpull7 (May 11, 2015)

Ambient death thrash polka nu metal is the best. You just are not in if you haven't jumped on board.


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## ZeroTolerance94 (May 11, 2015)

...As far as i know, when a band tells me they play "brutal death metal", I usually assume _oldschool _death metal. I imagine influences from bands like Monstrosity, Malevolent Creation, Six Feet Under, 90s Cannibal Corpse, ...etc....

If a band tells me they play "death metal"... ...., I assume a very broad spectrum of extreme metal... Anything from technical deathcore, to melodic death metal, metalcore, brutal death metal, and everything in between. 

I guess that would be the easiest way to put it. The term Death Metal is a way to generalize a lot of different sub genres of Death Metal in to one category.

_Brutal _Death Metal is just another subgenre, like_ Technical_ Death Metal would be, or _Slam_ Death Metal, or _Melodic _Death Metal.


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## DXL (May 11, 2015)

pushpull7 said:


> Ambient death thrash polka nu metal is the best. You just are not in if you haven't jumped on board.



I think you just described Prequel to the Sequel by BTBAM


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## Buffnuggler (May 11, 2015)

genre labels only exist to aid our discussion of music, not to actually categorize bands based on any real objective standard. they are both useful and silly, something i appreciate and also get a headache over at times, but that being said I think Brutal Death metal is probably one of the most silly categorizations I can think of lol, especially when most modern death metal strives to be as brutal as possible. 

For arguments sake, it could help to differentiate from tech death/throwback death (like Horrendous, who released a hell of an album last year), but there is no real argument to be had. I still appreciate your post because I think it's fun to think on the different merits of genre and how they develop, but when you think how easily Slipknot and Emperor could be grouped together by someone who only listens to mainstream country or radio rock it sort of puts a damper on genres being anything other than a way to reference a band in comparison to other bands when discussing or recommending them.


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## pushpull7 (May 12, 2015)

I was watching a couple of shows by that "dude" that does the metal/category stuff. They were "grunge" and "nu metal" and I had a couple of thoughts.

a) The guy is a bit on the idiot side 

b) What is the deal with all these "labels" ???? I don't care how you slice it, most "grunge" wasn't "metal" anyways (though CLEARLY AIC IS and soundgarden is dark and deep, but maybe possibly not "metal" but they have many "metal" aspects) and "nu metal" is MOSTLY metal whether you like it or not (how can Pantera, Deftones or Korn not be "metal" ???) 

So my thoughts (right or wrong) are "who cares?" Heavy ....ing blaring guitars ....ing turns me on. Why is it necessary to say what "genre" sub-genre they are? Like it or not....it's not really important to me. 

2c


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## The Mirror (May 12, 2015)

vilk said:


> (...) obviously there's a large gap between Death and Cryptopsy, the later being infinitely heavier (...)




And that's why genres suck, cause it doesn't get heavier than Death...


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## McKay (May 12, 2015)

Death Metal:



Brutal Death Metal:



Tech Death:


It gets kinda frustrating when people conflate Brutal/Tech with other types and think that if it's not at 300bpm with constant blasting it isn't Death Metal.


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## vilk (May 12, 2015)

The Mirror said:


> And that's why genres suck, cause it doesn't get heavier than Death...



Hey man, I LOVE Death, but don't sit there and tell me Cryptopsy isn't heavier!

It's my personal opinion that Crytopsy was the first commercially successful band to push the envelope as far as they did. Blasphemy made flesh was but especially none so vile is like another level compared to other stuff coming out in 96. Honestly guys give none so vile another spin it's even heavier than a lot of slam that is out these days. Cryptopsy does not sound like CC or Bolt Thrower.


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## McKay (May 12, 2015)

vilk said:


> Hey man, I LOVE Death, but don't sit there and tell me Cryptopsy isn't heavier!
> 
> It's my personal opinion that Crytopsy was the first commercially successful band to push the envelope as far as they did. Blasphemy made flesh was but especially none so vile is like another level compared to other stuff coming out in 96. Honestly guys give none so vile another spin it's even heavier than a lot of slam that is out these days. Cryptopsy does not sound like CC or Bolt Thrower.



It depends how you define heavy.


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## thrsher (May 12, 2015)

vilk said:


> OK, lets set the record straight here.
> 
> The first stuff that people called "death metal" was glorified thrash. Bands like Death or Possessed were releasing music since like 82 or something.
> 
> ...



well put. you had cannibal corpse, morbid angel, obituary, deicide at the top ranks of death metal

then you had suffocation dying fetus cryptopsy come along and spawn stuff like devourment


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## SSK0909 (May 12, 2015)

You're all morons, it's really this simple 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asax9s2xmlU


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## The Mirror (May 12, 2015)

McKay said:


> It depends how you define heavy.



Indeed. Just heard some songs by Cryptopsy and most of it just seemed very fast "mayham" riffs. 

In comparison to the chorus riff to "Spirit Crusher" from Death. That's heavy. As heavy as Iron Man or as heavy as the ending Riff from A Fair Judgement by Opeth. 

For me fast isn't heavy, but rather noise. But as McKay said. It depends on your definition.


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## vilk (May 12, 2015)

I wasn't really talking about new Cryptopsy. It's actually not even the same band the only remaining member is the drummer. He's ....ing good drummer though I'll tell ya what.

Also, I'm not much one to be the guy that says my opinion is righter than your opinion... but...

If you think Death is heavier than Cryptopsy then your definition is all kinds of messed up.


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## Buffnuggler (May 12, 2015)

What do you guys think is the "heaviest" riff ever? Beat to death question I know, but I've thought a lot about it because it's just fun to think of all the amazing riffs and a couple of the ones I've heard over the years are some of the best Sabbath ones like Black Sabbath and Into the Void, and I've also heard a lot of people say Where the Slime Live from Morbid Angel, which is definitely a good choice. 

I think Lamb of God's of Ashes is actually one of the most riff tastic albums of all time, they just dish out badass riff after badass riff from beginning to end on that (literally, I can't name a single riff that is just "ehhh") 

But my HEAVIEST riff that I come back to time and time again is the riff that closes out Mastodon's Seabeast. The way it builds momentum with the sparse guitars and drums only to explode into that last riff gets me every time. It's not even a super distinct riff, just a perfect one in a perfect album. I listen to that riff and then put on the Hunter and cry.


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## Dana (May 12, 2015)

i can't believe this is a thread.


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## metaljohn (May 12, 2015)

Dana said:


> i can't believe this is a thread.



Hello, and welcome to the internet.


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## Grindspine (May 12, 2015)

Dana said:


> i can't believe this is a thread.


 
I can't believe you have purple font on a gray background...


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## The Mirror (May 13, 2015)

vilk said:


> If you think Death is heavier than Cryptopsy then your definition is all kinds of messed up.



Ah sorry you misunderstood me. In fact I also wrote, that I think Black Sabbaths Iron Man is heavier than Cryptopsy... 

What are you going to do now?


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## vilk (May 13, 2015)

do...


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## DarkWolfXV (May 13, 2015)

Brutal death metal are bands like early Suffocation, Cryptopsy and Pyrexia, Visceral Disgorge, Cerebral Bore, Putrid Pile. One of the, if not _the_, first brutal death metal bands is Suffocation, and most BDM bands spawned afterwards are influenced by them. Vocal wise, a low, often gurgled growl, ala Frank Mullen (Suffocation) and John Gallagher (Dying Fetus) prevails, high growls/screams are mostly abandoned. Modern bands often use pig squeals in addition to those growls (Cerebral Bore, Waking the Cadaver), as influenced by Cryptopsy (the vocal work of Lord Worm) and Despised Icon (which was clearly influenced by Cryptopsy, both bands come from Quebec). The guitar riffs are almost purely chromatic and do not follow any set scale, the bass guitar either follows the guitar or goes it's own way, utilizing slap bass techniques. The tempos are way higher than in standard death metal, sometimes reaching even 300 bpm, the drummers blast away like there's no tomorrow, more recent acts use gravity rolls and gravity blasts (originally jazz techniques, brought into metal by Flo Mounier, the drummer of Cryptopsy, who is jazz influenced). Song structures completely eschew the verse/chorus format and instead opt for a more free approach of "riffs upon riffs". The instrumental work is technical, as in, difficult to perform. Brutal death metal differs from technical death metal in that there is no _emphasis_ on technicality here (but the music itself _is_ technical), compositions are often "music theory-less", is in general more abrasive, employs different vocalisation techniques and different lyrical themes (tech death leans for the standard death growl instead of a low, gurgly one). 



In addition to all of this, brutal death metal often utilizes breakdowns (in music break sense, not metalcore/deathcore breakdown sense) which are called "slams". At 2:52 in Liege of Inveracity, you have the first slam, on which all other slams are built. A slam is a slow, chromatic, palm muted movement (Though not always! Waking the Cadaver was the first to use slams based on scales), used to pad out the music.



Slam death metal (sometimes called slamming brutal death metal, or simply slam) is a sub genre of brutal death metal (So a sub-sub-sub genre? ) which places emphasis on _slams_ instead of riffs. The first slam album is "Molesting the Decapitated" by Devourment, and they are the first slam band (who have, since "Conceived in Sewage", moved towards a more standard BDM approach). Most modern BDM bands of today use slams, and the art of slamming has seeped into deathcore (deathcore 2.0 is brutal death metal influenced). By extension, brutal deathcore bands like Acrania have evolved and the lines between brutal death metal and deathcore blur.



Ask me anything.


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## vilk (May 13, 2015)

I don't really know but I used to always claim to my friends that Cryptopsy's Graves of the Fathers was the first use of what we contemporarily call a breakdown (in metal music). I remember they used to always give any band that uses a breakdown crap for being -core (we were a bunch of elitist high school jerks at the time) and I used to say that it wasn't true, that this kind of a thing has more to do with death metal, because of the Cryptopsy thing.


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## Sumsar (May 13, 2015)

^Breakdowns appear here and there in DM, and it is not per definition a bad thing. It is however a bad thing when the whole song is a breakdown, aka deathcore, metalcore, djent etc..


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## DarkWolfXV (May 13, 2015)

Breakdowns in death metal either appear as a slowdown (Napalm Death's Silence is Deafening has a really cool one), as slams, or as Cryptopsy - Graves of the Fathers kinda chugs. Notice the difference - death metal open note breakdowns are fast with little spacing between chugs, while deathcore ones are slow and sparse.



At 3:30 - a good example of a death metal breakdown.

Also, death metal uses breakdowns as embelishments, while -core and djent genres are breakdown centric, which instead pad out the breakdowns with riffs (sans more metal oriented bands like Despised Icon), not the other way around.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (May 13, 2015)

Everything DarkWolfXV said. Yes. Plus, my example of brutal death metal: DISGORGE



New song? FVCK YES! I see them in a week!


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## thrsher (May 13, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Ask me anything.



agree with everything except, internal bleeding started the whole slam thing and my opinion on it was that they were no where near as good of musicians as suffocation (as they are friends with them) and couldn't play technical like them so they did what they could and that was the slam aspect of suffo. they already were putting out their 3 record by the time devourment put out molesting the decapitated


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## Korbain (May 14, 2015)

i always thought death metal was just...brutal sounding. 

So brutal death metal is a sub genre, of a sub genre, of the metal genre...*brain melts*


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## protest (May 14, 2015)

The more cookie monstery, the more brutally.

We should call it muppet metal.


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## pushpull7 (May 15, 2015)

protest said:


> The more cookie monstery, the more brutally.
> 
> We should call it muppet metal.



I'm waiting for brutal DEATH muppet metal.


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## WestOfSeven (May 15, 2015)

Brutal Tech Death pwns.


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## Stealth7 (May 15, 2015)

protest said:


> The more cookie monstery, the more brutally.
> 
> We should call it muppet metal.





pushpull7 said:


> I'm waiting for brutal DEATH muppet metal.


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## Korbain (May 15, 2015)

It's kind of stupid trying to separate death metal bands now by calling it 'brutal death metal'. it seriously sounds stupid.

Why cant metal, just be metal. Lets bring an end to this sub genre battle! I don't think i've ever really put a sub genre on a band, at the most they're progressive metal or metal to me.


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## DXL (May 15, 2015)

Korbain said:


> It's kind of stupid trying to separate death metal bands now by calling it 'brutal death metal'. it seriously sounds stupid.
> 
> Why cant metal, just be metal. Lets bring an end to this sub genre battle! I don't think i've ever really put a sub genre on a band, at the most they're progressive metal or metal to me.



I tend to really like the whole subgenre thing, it makes it easier to find new music. Bands in a genre like Slam Death Metal I would've never been able to find just by scrolling through a list of "metal bands". Yes I do agree it's incredibly stupid when people limit themselves to certain genres, but to someone like me who listens to everything it helps make my listening habits more organized. One day I could say " I'm in the mood to listen to some doom metal" and then like that I find an entire community of bands all labelled as the kind of music I'm in the mood for.


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## thrsher (May 15, 2015)

DXL said:


> I tend to really like the whole subgenre thing, it makes it easier to find new music. Bands in a genre like Slam Death Metal I would've never been able to find just by scrolling through a list of "metal bands". Yes I do agree it's incredibly stupid when people limit themselves to certain genres, but to someone like me who listens to everything it helps make my listening habits more organized. One day I could say " I'm in the mood to listen to some doom metal" and then like that I find an entire community of bands all labelled as the kind of music I'm in the mood for.



completely agree, i love all forms of metal, the breaking down helps me hone in on what im looking for and identify what i dont want to waste my money on as well.


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## vilk (May 15, 2015)

Korbain said:


> It's kind of stupid trying to separate death metal bands now by calling it 'brutal death metal'. it seriously sounds stupid.
> 
> Why cant metal, just be metal. Lets bring an end to this sub genre battle! I don't think i've ever really put a sub genre on a band, at the most they're progressive metal or metal to me.



I'm with this guy. And you know what else? What with "meat"? I mean, it's just food, right? And then people are all like "red meat" and "poultry". Wtf is that about, I mean, first its food, then its meat, how far do we have to take this thing? And ground chuck? I mean srsly whats the difference between chuck and steak they're both from the same animal for crying out loud, and it's all meat anyway. That's way too specific what's even the point lets just call it all "food" it's all just sustenance.


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## DarkWolfXV (May 15, 2015)

Korbain said:


> It's kind of stupid trying to separate death metal bands now



"Now" meaning circa the nineties. Those subgenres are not new. Where have you been all this time?


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## Trashgreen (May 15, 2015)

So who remembers these oldda schoolaa brutalos:


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## Sumsar (May 15, 2015)

nevermind


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## Veldar (May 16, 2015)

DarkWolfXV said:


> Brutal death metal are bands like early Suffocation, Cryptopsy and Pyrexia, Visceral Disgorge, Cerebral Bore, Putrid Pile. One of the, if not the, first brutal death metal bands is Suffocation, and most BDM bands spawned afterwards are influenced by them. Vocal wise, a low, often gurgled growl, ala Frank Mullen (Suffocation) and John Gallagher (Dying Fetus) prevails, high growls/screams are mostly abandoned. Modern bands often use pig squeals in addition to those growls (Cerebral Bore, Waking the Cadaver), as influenced by Cryptopsy (the vocal work of Lord Worm) and Despised Icon (which was clearly influenced by Cryptopsy, both bands come from Quebec). The guitar riffs are almost purely chromatic and do not follow any set scale, the bass guitar either follows the guitar or goes it's own way, utilizing slap bass techniques. The tempos are way higher than in standard death metal, sometimes reaching even 300 bpm, the drummers blast away like there's no tomorrow, more recent acts use gravity rolls and gravity blasts (originally jazz techniques, brought into metal by Flo Mounier, the drummer of Cryptopsy, who is jazz influenced). Song structures completely eschew the verse/chorus format and instead opt for a more free approach of "riffs upon riffs". The instrumental work is technical, as in, difficult to perform. Brutal death metal differs from technical death metal in that there is no emphasis on technicality here (but the music itself is technical), compositions are often "music theory-less", is in general more abrasive, employs different vocalisation techniques and different lyrical themes (tech death leans for the standard death growl instead of a low, gurgly one).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sargent D is that you?


_Posted from Sevenstring.org App for Android_


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## Dana (May 19, 2015)

Grindspine said:


> I can't believe you have purple font on a gray background...



yeah i should have used gray...


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## Herrick (Jun 16, 2015)

I never understood the criticism of subgenre-naming. If you ask someone what kind of music they listen to and they say, "Metal", that doesn't tell much about what they listen to....unless you're someone who thinks all Metal sounds the same.


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## metallidude3 (Jun 16, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=InZNBcJTmWs

Hahahahahaha still probably the best video on the interwebs


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## Low Baller (Jul 17, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Where the Light Death Metal at?



New sub genre, diet death metal.


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## thrsher (Jul 17, 2015)

Low Baller said:


> New sub genre, diet death metal.



a la melodeath


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## AdamMaz (Jul 17, 2015)

I've always thought of Brutal DM as having more technical drumming and lower guitar with less tone that sounds like banal riff salad.


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## vilk (Jul 17, 2015)

Trust me, I've heard plenty of bands brutal death metal and not that sound like banal riff salad. Good brutal DM bands (or bands of any genre) do not sound like banal riff salad.


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## TheRealSouthner (Jul 17, 2015)

normal death metal = 7 string
brutal death metal = 8 string


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## thrsher (Jul 17, 2015)

TheRealSouthner said:


> normal death metal = 7 string
> brutal death metal = 8 string



i def don't follow that logic. i only know one brutal death band that uses an 8


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## TheRealSouthner (Jul 17, 2015)

extreme brutal death metal = 9 string


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## EmaDaCuz (Jul 18, 2015)

Brutal death metal, in my humble opinion, is the "american way" death metal evolved in the mid 90s.
To me, in the 80s/early 90s death metal was death metal. Period. Death, Deicide, Morbid Angel, Cannibal Corpse, Bolt Thrower, Obituary... you could clearly categorise these bands as DM, even though they were clearly playing different kind of DM and their style was recognisable from miles away. Then, the great hiatus. 
Scandinavian, and especially Swedish, metal bands started to throw in catchy melodies and to rediscover rock'n roll. American bands, on the other hand, responded by getting faster while maintaining dark, gloomy, heavy atmospheres. I would say that CC themselves have become somewhat brutal death for me, at least after Vile.

Nowadays, this distinction sounds pretty anachronistic as there are very few bands that play "original" death metal and we tend to label death metal what was originally defined as "brutal" death metal. We still do have death & roll and Swedish melodic death metal, though.


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## redstone (Jul 18, 2015)

My very personal definition

Death metal :

When the guitarist knows how to write brutal riffs

Brutal death metal : 

When the drummer and vocalist try to overcompensate the actual apathy of the guitar tracks with over-the-top blast beats and monstrous vocals. Riffs usually consist in weak mid-speed arpeggios and powerchords.


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## OmegaSlayer (Jul 18, 2015)

redstone said:


> My very personal definition
> 
> Death metal :
> 
> ...



Not that I agree, but I found it funny.

I personally don't give a damn.


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## redstone (Jul 18, 2015)

Just making fun of the new brutal death scene


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## Veldar (Jul 21, 2015)

Just use this simple equation to solve the problem.

We know Slam death metal is brutal death metal with slam riffs so if you take a devourment song and cut out all the slow chromatic riffs then we have brutal death metal


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## Floppystrings (Jul 21, 2015)

It's the stuff you make sure your new girl friend doesn't hear right away.


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## chickenxnuggetz91 (Jul 24, 2015)

Love this thread


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## Sammy J (Aug 1, 2015)

Basically:

Brutal Death Metal = bands like Defeated Sanity, Disgorge, Putridity, Internal Suffering, Devourment etc. Basically, the production will likely be muddier, the vocals indecipheral for the most part. Maybe a little slammy too.

Death Metal = bands like Morbid Angel, Suffocation, Immolation, early Death, Deicide...etc


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