# Extending the scale length of a guitar?



## Brill (Dec 27, 2012)

I was wondering if you can extend the scale length of a guitar by moving the bridge back?
Ive got a omen 8, and im going to make it fretless. I though that i might be able to also inprove tension on it by moving the bridge back?"


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## Danukenator (Dec 27, 2012)

I could be wrong on this, so take this with a grain of salt.

If you moved the bridge back, you'd effectively lengthen the scale of the guitar. However, by doing that, the positions of the "frets" or where the notes would reside on a fretless board will have shifted.

I can't really find the exact words to describe it. Basically, it will work but the side dot/old fret slots will no longer correspond to the location of those notes.


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## TRENCHLORD (Dec 27, 2012)

No.
Not unless you changed the neck and then moved the bridge back to coincide with the differing neck scale length.

Time for a new ERG lol.


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## Robrecht (Dec 27, 2012)

^^ Correct.

The simplest way to put it is this. Your 12th fret is supposed to be the octave, i.e.: it's supposed to sit exactly in the middle between the nut and the bridge. If you move the bridge away by an inch, you'll have to move the 12th fret by half an inch in the same direction... and move all the other frets so the proportions remain the same. I'm afraid that isn't really feasible.

Edit: damn, missed the part about going fretless! I suppose in that case it might work. You'd have to remove the dots and all traces of the existing frets and draw on a new, larger-spaced fretboard as a visual aid, or simply go by ear. But without actual frets to reposition, I don't see a problem.


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## TRENCHLORD (Dec 27, 2012)

I missed the fretless part also gdamnit. Sorry OP.
Nothing wrong with extending then, just would probably change string size and maybe tuning of course.


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## Winspear (Dec 27, 2012)

Yep fretless it will work, there will just not be 24 semitones fitting on the board anymore.


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## Brill (Dec 27, 2012)

EtherealEntity said:


> Yep fretless it will work, there will just not be 24 semitones fitting on the board anymore.



I guessed that. Will i lose like frets 24 through 20?

Will i need to move the bridge pickup? Or the neck pick up?


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Dec 27, 2012)

IIUC moving the pickups in this case should only be a tonal issue, nothing structural.


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## MF_Kitten (Dec 27, 2012)

The only effective way to do this is to leave the bridge where it is, and get a baritone conversion neck. It's basically a baritone scale neck that is made to go from the "normal" bridge position to make a normal guitar into a long-scale guitar. Works well, but you might not like how long the neck ends up being from the body.

You can get baritone conversion necks for most "standard" guitar types from Warmoth.


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## Brill (Dec 27, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> The only effective way to do this is to leave the bridge where it is, and get a baritone conversion neck. It's basically a baritone scale neck that is made to go from the "normal" bridge position to make a normal guitar into a long-scale guitar. Works well, but you might not like how long the neck ends up being from the body.
> 
> You can get baritone conversion necks for most "standard" guitar types from Warmoth.



I dont belive warmoth makes 8 string necks, i checked beforr.
Also why wont moving the bridge back be effective?


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## ElRay (Dec 27, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> *... im going to make it fretless ...*


As long as you remove (or complete ignore) any reference to the original fret positions, you'll be fine.

If you weren't going fretless, then you'll need a new fingerbord with the frets in the correct new locations or leave the bridge in place and get a custom conversion neck.

Ray


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## Demiurge (Dec 27, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> Also why wont moving the bridge back be effective?



On the Omen-8, it looks like there isn't much space to move the bridge back before reaching the curved part of the face of the guitar.

Even if the guitar were a flat-top, I think the project would look like a disaster. You move the bridge back- you also have to fill/redrill the string ferrules. The repositioning of the bridge might make the control knobs and pickup selector in a now-uncomfortable place- gotta fix that. If you want to move the pickups- gotta fix that. Pulling the existing frets and removing inlays & side-dots cleanly is difficult, and filling them so the filled areas aren't distracting while playing fretless is a lot of work, too.

With the time and resources to do what you want to do and not end up with a longer list of problems to fix than features installed, you'd be better-off getting a local luthier to build you a 'baritone conversion' neck.


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## Brill (Dec 27, 2012)

Demiurge said:


> On the Omen-8, it looks like there isn't much space to move the bridge back before reaching the curved part of the face of the guitar.
> 
> Even if the guitar were a flat-top, I think the project would look like a disaster. You move the bridge back- you also have to fill/redrill the string ferrules. The repositioning of the bridge might make the control knobs and pickup selector in a now-uncomfortable place- gotta fix that. If you want to move the pickups- gotta fix that. Pulling the existing frets and removing inlays & side-dots cleanly is difficult, and filling them so the filled areas aren't distracting while playing fretless is a lot of work, too.
> 
> With the time and resources to do what you want to do and not end up with a longer list of problems to fix than features installed, you'd be better-off getting a local luthier to build you a 'baritone conversion' neck.



I was actually going to change my bridge type. Going to go with a bass bridge (like not string through). I also measured and seems to have about an inch or so of space to move it back. I qas going to make it fretless, i just thought that while i was at it, i could increase the string tension.


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## MF_Kitten (Dec 27, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> I dont belive warmoth makes 8 string necks, i checked beforr.
> Also why wont moving the bridge back be effective?



Oh, i didn't see the 8 string fretless part. My bad.

Well, moving the bridge back will work in this case, but you get less range, meaning you basically lose "frets" on the high end. You also have to ignore the fret markers and eventual fret lines, which is HARD to do! 

Assuming you don't mind the reduced range, you should cover up the fret lines and side dots and inlays somehow, and make your own new fret lines.

However, what you should also know, is that when you have a fretless, the scale length doesn't matter half as much anymore when it comes to intonation and clarity. YOU intonate each note yourself! Intonation with frets is basically setting up the length of the string so it corresponds perfectly with the placement of the frets. Longer scales help you do this more accurately. Without frets, however, you just need it to be long enough to have alright tension. If you just get some large strings, it'll sound great at standard scale anyway!

As an example, check out this video:

That is a TINY instrument, yet it sounds totally fine in those low notes.

Try it out with big thick strings first. Trust me!


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## Brill (Dec 27, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> Oh, i didn't see the 8 string fretless part. My bad.
> 
> Well, moving the bridge back will work in this case, but you get less range, meaning you basically lose "frets" on the high end. You also have to ignore the fret markers and eventual fret lines, which is HARD to do!
> 
> ...




Thanks... Its getting quite commical wih people misreadinn the question 
Is there a lot of difference between playing a fretless and playing a fretted one apart from tht? And will putting bass strings on it(just hypothetocal) make it sound better?


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## MF_Kitten (Dec 27, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> Thanks... Its getting quite commical wih people misreadinn the question
> Is there a lot of difference between playing a fretless and playing a fretted one apart from tht? And will putting bass strings on it(just hypothetocal) make it sound better?



Without frets you don't have the problem of precise intonation, since you do that manually with your fingers for each note. In fact, note how bowed instruments like a violin or cello don't have intonated bridges. The strings all start at the same point on a straight bridge. Bass strings will work just fine because of this, as long as you don't get REALLY huge ones, and as long as you don't mind the darker thicker sound. The only thing that scale length would change on this fretless, would be the brightness and some clarity. It's not really worth it to go through the trouble of heavy duty modding of this kind on that type of instrument. If you want higher tension, then a fretless will accept bigger strings better than a fretted guitar without having to change the scale.


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## Brill (Dec 27, 2012)

MF_Kitten said:


> Without frets you don't have the problem of precise intonation, since you do that manually with your fingers for each note. In fact, note how bowed instruments like a violin or cello don't have intonated bridges. The strings all start at the same point on a straight bridge.



So its like playing a cello or viola pizzicato?


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## Danukenator (Dec 27, 2012)

Dang, everybody got all mad at me and then came full circle. 

I'll blame it on me trying to type out an explanation at 2:16 am. 

Basically, you're going to "lose" frets. Exactly how many frets would depend on how much you increased the scale by. If you increased the scale by 3" then you're going to lose a lot of frets. 

I agree MF Kitten, this change probably isn't going to be worth it. It'd be more worth while to find a larger scale but cheap 8 string and mess around with that. However, your choices for these is probably limited in Australia.


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## MF_Kitten (Dec 27, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> So its like playing a cello or viola pizzicato?



it's like playing any fretless instrument. You "find" the notes yourself, rather than having them laid out for you to pick out. On a violin, you could be off by mere cents if you wish. On a fretted guitar, the smallest mistake you can make is an entire semitone. 

This ability to do tiny tiny changes to the pitch means that intonating the guitar isn't really required, at least not precisely so. Intonating it so the harmonics are in tune will probably be the most important part of it.


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