# Live Vocal Thread



## lelandbowman3 (Apr 16, 2019)

Searched and Googled, didn't see anything, so I'm opening the pit:

What is the best way to eq and mix live vocals?
-Cleans
-Screaming
-Backup
-With Effects
Etc.

Let's see what SS.O has to say, because I've been trying to perfect live sound and one thing I can't stand is for my vocals to change from venue to venue because of their house tech keeping everything flat, or me not being able to dial-in my voice. Any thoughts, tricks, tips?


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## lelandbowman3 (Apr 20, 2019)

obviously you can't run a chain of compressors, eq, etc. so what are the best live engineers doing to get that attack, response, and mass in a live setting?


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## RevDrucifer (Apr 20, 2019)

How are you planning on implementing anything you decide on?

I wanted to take control of my reverbs/delays so I turned half my guitar rig into a vocal rig, ran a mic into a TC Electronics G-Force and controlled everything with an expression pedal and a Ground Control Pro. As far as EQ, you're really at the mercy of the soundman and experience has shown me it's MUCH better left to those guys to EQ your vocals than for you to go and tell them what you want. They know what the room sounds like and are much more familiar with their gear than you are and more often than not, you'll piss them off by giving them tips before you even hit the stage. 
Even if you run your mic into a mixer with your own EQ and everything on there, it's still going to hit a mixing console after that, where the soundman will do whatever he wants to make it sound best for the room you're in.


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## DudeManBrother (Apr 20, 2019)

I’ve never bothered with what the sound guy does to my vocals. I just bring my mic and go. I will set up my own eq for private gigs where we supply the PA; but never worry about it at the standard venues.


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## lewis (Apr 21, 2019)

if you use laptop + interface live for backingtrack and Clicks for the drummer, then its very easy to do a Wet/Dry vocal setup in the Daw (providing you have enough inputs & outputs on the interface)

So what we are planning is wet vocals (with compression, reverb and automated Tempo delays in places) go to the FOH, then completely dry vocals go to our stage sound to avoid compressor/feedback problems.

EDIT: This also means you can have automated compression settings for cleans, and different (lighter) settings for Screams etc in time with the backing track


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## TedEH (Apr 22, 2019)

I've never really been a live singer, for the most part, but I'd be hesitant to do a lot of vocal processing before the sound guy gets a chance to do his thing. Introducing your own compression could potentially mess with the sound guy's normal workflow, make it harder to control feedback, etc. Assuming you have a decent sound guy to begin with, every element you try to control like this is something you've taken out of his (or her) hands - limiting what they can do for you. That might be ok, but it's important to be aware of what tradeoffs you're making.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 22, 2019)

Just do what half the bands are doing now. Put all your time-synced delays and reverb FX on the backtrack. As far as compression/saturation that goes into "heavy" vocals a lot of times in the studio, they rarely ever actually work in a venue because the settings used for recording will cause massive feedback at any decent volume. I've seen a bunch of bands over the years where the vocalist has his own FX board and it almost always sounds awful, or causes feedback the whole time when they try to do anything besides basic delays/verbs. Shit even Entheos was having some issues at the last show I saw with the "robot voice" thing they use all over the newest album. The first few songs it was super quiet, then when it was loud enough it was making the mic feedback in the mains, then it got stuck on for parts where it wasn't supposed to be on. My experience with performing and occasionally doing sound is to leave dynamics up to the FOH guy who knows the gear/room and is setting the gain staging. If you're screaming/singing and you need saturation, heavy compression, and doubler on all the time to "sound right" live, you need to practice more. (not saying that's you, just an observation)


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## lelandbowman3 (Apr 22, 2019)

This is all super helpful. I just have a constant fear that my vocals will sound like Chelsea Grin because a ton of sound guys in the area are just trash, so I was trying to see how best to combat that.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

ive said it a million times on this forum, and alas I will say it again.

Most people on here talk about shows/soundguys like its going to be Wembley Arena with the best soundguys ever, when in reality my last gig took 2 soundguys 20 mins to plug in 4 XLR cables (we D.I everything) - literally worse than useless so the reality is you simply HAVE to take as much control back over your sound as possible, otherwise you all sound like complete trash every gig.


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

^ Counterpoint: Being on stage puts you in the worst position to try to control what the audience is hearing, in terms of mix. Stage sound is not what the audience is experiencing. You've potentially improved your stage sound, but could have equally screwed the house sound. IMO the solution, if your sound guys really are that bad, would be to bring your own sound guy with you.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> ive said it a million times on this forum, and alas I will say it again.
> 
> Most people on here talk about shows/soundguys like its going to be Wembley Arena with the best soundguys ever, when in reality my last gig took 2 soundguys 20 mins to plug in 4 XLR cables (we D.I everything) - literally worse than useless so the reality is you simply HAVE to take as much control back over your sound as possible, otherwise you all sound like complete trash every gig.


What kind of "venue" are you playing that even has two sound guys? If this some bar with two speakers on poles and an old analog Yamaha board from 90's?
Anyways, point is, if you're doing your FX for vocals you can't run your usual studio chain like you can when you're working with a track when you're live. Obviously not always the case, but especially for heavy vocals, there is usually heavy compression, de-essing (more compression), and saturation (more compression), and that stuff doesn't work live unless you want to find the one spot on stage you can stand between the mains where you don't get feedback. If a vocalists "sound" relies that heavily on that stuff, there's a fundamental technique issue. (big period) I think having the ability to do your own mix is wonderful, I have that option with both of my bands, but you still have to be smart with your dynamics in a live setting. Running your own FOH mix is good IF you're in a situation where there's a less than ideal tech/sound system.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

TedEH said:


> ^ Counterpoint: Being on stage puts you in the worst position to try to control what the audience is hearing, in terms of mix. Stage sound is not what the audience is experiencing. You've potentially improved your stage sound, but could have equally screwed the house sound. IMO the solution, if your sound guys really are that bad, would be to bring your own sound guy with you.


Pretty much everyone who is running their own sound like that is going to have a digital mixer and the ability to mix from a phone/iPad off-stage. But otherwise you're right, you can't do a FOH mix from the stage unless you've played the room before and have a preset scene saved.


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

^ Even with the room knowledge and presets, I've still yet to run into any serious venue where this would be an improvement over letting the soundguy do his job.

Stress on the "serious venue" part though. If you're showing up at a place with


GunpointMetal said:


> two speakers on poles and an old analog Yamaha board from 90's


and let's not kid ourselves, this does happen - then no amount of self-mixing is going to correct for the sh*tshow that's about to go down.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

TedEH said:


> ^ Even with the room knowledge and presets, I've still yet to run into any serious venue where this would be an improvement over letting the soundguy do his job.
> 
> Stress on the "serious venue" part though. If you're showing up at a place with
> 
> and let's not kid ourselves, this does happen - then no amount of self-mixing is going to correct for the sh*tshow that's about to go down.


That's pretty much my philosophy. If we show up at a place and there are installed subs, hanging arrays, a full monitor compliment, I'm going to assume the guy running sound knows what he's doing or someone wouldn't have put him in charge of that much equipment and I'm gonna get out of his way and just run my IEM rig and let him handle FOH. If he's tripping over cables and scratching his head at the snake during setup, I'm gonna hand him a two-channel, tell him to set it flat at the board, turn it up, and mix from my tablet with the wireless. IME if its a place with a garbage sound system, the "engineer" is usually on par with the gear, and I'll decide what to send to the mains again. When it comes to stuff like "sounding like Chelsea Grin in that one Marge Simpson video" the trick isn't FX, its to not blow out your voice/suck at vocals to begin with.


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

I'm reminded of times that I've shown up at venues where the PA setup made no sense, but got an earful when I made suggestions. More and more as time goes on, I'm appreciating the value of picking and choosing which shows to participate in.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I'm reminded of times that I've shown up at venues where the PA setup made no sense, but got an earful when I made suggestions. More and more as time goes on, I'm appreciating the value of picking and choosing which shows to participate in.


Definitely. If it's an "home show" we probably take less than 1/3 of what's offered. Getting asked to travel usually includes some form of monetary guarantee, so we take most of those, plus its nice playing for new people. I'm so over shitty sound guys I don't even care anymore about keeping the sound guy happy. If he's an idiot and fucking stuff up, or I hear the band before us and they sound like shit because of the "sound guy" I have no problem asking him to leave use to our own sound. If he's a dick about it, I'll be a dick right back. No time for morons making me look like an asshole because he doesn't know the different between a gain dial and level fader.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> What kind of "venue" are you playing that even has two sound guys? If this some bar with two speakers on poles and an old analog Yamaha board from 90's?
> Anyways, point is, if you're doing your FX for vocals you can't run your usual studio chain like you can when you're working with a track when you're live. Obviously not always the case, but especially for heavy vocals, there is usually heavy compression, de-essing (more compression), and saturation (more compression), and that stuff doesn't work live unless you want to find the one spot on stage you can stand between the mains where you don't get feedback. If a vocalists "sound" relies that heavily on that stuff, there's a fundamental technique issue. (big period) I think having the ability to do your own mix is wonderful, I have that option with both of my bands, but you still have to be smart with your dynamics in a live setting. Running your own FOH mix is good IF you're in a situation where there's a less than ideal tech/sound system.



ok well this was our last gig/Venue

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x47d9e3cac2ba567d:0xa08ee4ed61416a3b!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipM_fv3vaBWF6P-Sc5nBoKFRYQeeccLx5aHfZ14=w180-h240-k-no!5sb2 venue norwich - Google Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipM_fv3vaBWF6P-Sc5nBoKFRYQeeccLx5aHfZ14&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidiMj0r-bhAhU9SBUIHX7RBcAQoiowCnoECA4QBg&cshid=1556028017118310

and this place has 2 soundguys atm because one is training the other (at the expense of bands)


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

Actually, one the best venues I've played at in terms of sound had a dedicated stage sound engineer. Two sound guys can work out great, if the skills and gear are there to match.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

TedEH said:


> Actually, one the best venues I've played at in terms of sound had a dedicated stage sound engineer. Two sound guys can work out great, if the skills and gear are there to match.


If your stage is less than 60' wide and your venue holds less than 1k, a dedicated monitor engineer is a waste of money.


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

That was not the case in this venue.  It sounded worth it to me at the time. Both sound guys worked for/ came with the venue as far as I know.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> ok well this was our last gig/Venue
> 
> https://www.google.com/maps/uv?hl=en&pb=!1s0x47d9e3cac2ba567d:0xa08ee4ed61416a3b!2m22!2m2!1i80!2i80!3m1!2i20!16m16!1b1!2m2!1m1!1e1!2m2!1m1!1e3!2m2!1m1!1e5!2m2!1m1!1e4!2m2!1m1!1e6!3m1!7e115!4shttps://lh5.googleusercontent.com/p/AF1QipM_fv3vaBWF6P-Sc5nBoKFRYQeeccLx5aHfZ14=w180-h240-k-no!5sb2 venue norwich - Google Search!15sCAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipM_fv3vaBWF6P-Sc5nBoKFRYQeeccLx5aHfZ14&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwidiMj0r-bhAhU9SBUIHX7RBcAQoiowCnoECA4QBg&cshid=1556028017118310
> 
> and this place has 2 soundguys atm because one is training the other (at the expense of bands)



100% that looks like a venue where the soundguy and the bartender are probably the same guy, just on different nights. Cool stage cage, though.


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## lelandbowman3 (May 2, 2019)

unfortunately, a lot of times we are handicapped by the bar tender/owner doubling as the sound guy. Maybe that's just regional, but that's my experience; in terms of "just not sucking at vocals" is kinda blanketed and laying all the blame on the performer. I'm not trying to run some elaborate signal/effect chain because my vocals suck, I'm trying to maximize the mix because what's happening now is that each person is being "eq'd" by volume, not balance, so guitar, drums, bass, is all stacked on top of each other, then the vocals have the lows and mids scooped while pushing highs to try to get over the snare and cymbals.


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## GunpointMetal (May 2, 2019)

lelandbowman3 said:


> then the vocals have the lows and mids scooped while pushing highs to try to get over the snare and cymbals.


 This is pretty common practice for vocals live no matter where you go, high-passed up to 200Hz-ish, cuts between 300-800Hz depending on the room/other instruments, boost in upper mids, scoop around sibilance, boost a little in the "air" frequencies, low-pass above 10-12k to avoid feedback issues. I wasn't implying that your personal vocals are not good, but unless its like a pop act or something like Breaking Benjamin style music, mixing to the vocals is gonna sound bad/weird instead of mixing the vocals to the music. My comment about the quality of vocals is when I see people trying to run heavy compression or saturation to cover up a lack of technique when it comes to "heavy vocals", which is what I've mostly seen vocalists who are setting up with an FX board or ITB FX chain attempting to do. Have you considered a personal IEM rig so you can hear yourself better?


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## lelandbowman3 (May 2, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Have you considered a personal IEM rig so you can hear yourself better?


I've thought about it, but I haven't priced anything out. I'm not really familiar with it, so that's another hold up for me haha


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## GunpointMetal (May 2, 2019)

lelandbowman3 said:


> I've thought about it, but I haven't priced anything out. I'm not really familiar with it, so that's another hold up for me haha


Honestly, for vocal use, you're gonna wanna go upper-mid/high-end, but if you can hear yourself better you'll perform better and you can do a little more with gain/compression if needed without worrying about your monitors giving you feedback issues. Even as an instrumentalist though, having an IEM setup with good monitoring has made performing so much more fun, even when the PA sucks and know the sound out front isn't top-tier, at least I know we're tight and WE sound good, whether the system does or not. Usually in those situations its all relative anyways, so if you're tighter/cleaner than the other bands on the bill that are fighting the PA, you'll still sound better and be more memorable (assuming this an original band playing multi-band shows). If you can convince your band-mates to jump on the IEM bandwagon you can just get a rack-mount digital mixer and if you're worried the sound guy doesn't know he's doing, plug everything into your mixer, give him the main outs, and do your own full band sound. We've used that a few times where either the sound guy wasn't a sound guy, or was too lazy to run more channels to the board, or was mixing off a $250 Yamaha mixer from 1989.


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## ZXIIIT (May 17, 2019)

For live shows, I used a BOSS VE-20 Vocal Performer pedal (cathedral preset).

This preset had EQ, compression and delay. I plugged my $50 mic I brought to every show and sent a mono XLR out to the sound guy. All he did was adjust the volume for the PA. 

This kept my sound consistent and even at shows.

(cheap plug)


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