# How do YOU count math/tech metal?



## stubhead (Dec 8, 2007)

I've been listening to Blotted Science, Canvas Solaris, Scale the Summit and some of the tracks off of Petrucci's "Suspended Animation" and trying to figure out how you could even remember the sections and changeups. I can read single-voice lines up to a pretty high level, Bach's S&P's for solo violin and all, but conventional music notation seems like it'd be almost a _hindrance_ for this tech stuff - it's not good for communicating overlapping polyrhythms. 

Regarding Dream Theater, I am aware of Petrucci's comment that "ask the four of us how we count the more intricately-timed passages, and you'll get four different answers - all of them equally correct." I am wondering, do those of you who actually _play_ this stuff use drum notation or at least some kind of sectional mapping to track the parts? "The Machinations of Dementia" by Blotted Science was apparently recorded with each musician adding his parts entirely separately, in different studios - that's really mind-boggling, if you've heard that music.


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## FortePenance (Dec 8, 2007)

I don't read any drum notation. When playing the really hard stuff, i write myself my own little notes, like "1 2 3 41" something like that, y'know. If we're talking about stuff like Meshuggah, then I always just remember to count in my head.

Blotted Science? I have no idea but this is how my drummer friend interpretated Amnesia (starting from 1:48)

5-2-2--2--2--2-2-4--4-2--5--4-2--2-1--1-2--4--3-1--5--2-1--1-1--2--2--1-1---1---1


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## Desecrated (Dec 8, 2007)

I've done some simpler stuff like 6/8 over a 4/4 (6:4)and some 7/8 over 4/4 and so on (7:4). And this is how I do it; 
Program the drums in flstudio. Send them to the drummer together with drumnotation. Then we talk it over, rehearse it and then record it. 

Conventional music notation is great for communicating overlapping polys, I'll give you a "internetexample"

4:3 

123412341234 
x--x--x--x-- 
x---x---x--- 

Now with that said, I found some old articles on polys that I've saved on my computer so here are some outtakes:



> I'm having trouble figuring out how to determine the polyrhythms used in songs. For example, how can you tell that the intro to Rational Gaze is 25/16? How can I figure it out without being told what it is?
> 
> Answer:
> Dissect the beat, my man.
> ...





> Grab a metronome. If you don't have a metronome, buy one. If you're serious about understanding complex rhythmic relationships, a metronome is vital.
> 
> Probably one of the most useful things you can do to better understand and express polyrhythms is gain a solid sense of odd subdivisions; no easy task, given that western music doesn't really emphasize the use of much more than duples (two note) and triples.
> 
> ...



And also: 
Vai.com > Little Black Dots > Tempomental


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## guitarplayerone (Dec 8, 2007)

For odd times it really helps me to count 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-4 for something such as 10/8 (excuse the incorrect division sign). For polyrythms I often find it easier to think in one rythm with accents than both at once... however if I must think in both, I try to tap the downbeats to one with my feet, while counting or playing the other..


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## ShawnFjellstad (Dec 8, 2007)

i used to sit and count to determine the time signature, but i don't really do that anymore.
i don't have to count anymore, i can just kind of feel the beat.


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## newamerikangospel (Dec 8, 2007)

.......in my pants








I find the groove, then count the click. That way I have no preconceived notion of time signatures to mess me up (rational gaze's main riff "feels" natural to me, but the initial idea of 25/16ths doesn't).


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## stubhead (Dec 9, 2007)

Thanks, that stuff Desecrated linked to is very helpful, especially the Vai article's section about the multiplicative way to analyze time divisions. It's one thing to say "feel the beat", but if you read interviews with the members of bands like Dream Theater & the Mahavishnu Orchestra, they _count_ the stuff.... I basically just have to work out a practice program for myself and then do the work - my oldest drum machine is actually a totally-programmable Yamaha RX-7 from the late 80's, it can do anything you make it (NO presets). I've been doing beat displacement exercises for years but just to generate melodies. I'm O.K. on 5's, 7's, 10's & 14's - but I was just looking at some old Mahavishnu stuff, 15/16 and 19/8? Rowf. It's mostly the _overlapping_ things that the new math metal guys are doing that freak me out, but I've got to spend some time re-familiarizing myself with the basics first. Shucks - I was hoping for the magic secret shortcut....


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## newamerikangospel (Dec 9, 2007)

Yeah, as with anything, the only real shortcut is practicing instead of just fumbling around with it until you get it. 

And the interview petrucci did with guitar (one player?) that had the gigantatour cover, he said that he worries less about counting and more about feeling. Its one thing to be able to count in the forementioned 25/16, but to make a riff/solo/melody line that moves people is another. Hell, some guitar players aren't able to do that in 4/4.


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## Desecrated (Dec 9, 2007)

stubhead said:


> Thanks, that stuff Desecrated linked to is very helpful, especially the Vai article's section about the multiplicative way to analyze time divisions. It's one thing to say "feel the beat", but if you read interviews with the members of bands like Dream Theater & the Mahavishnu Orchestra, they _count_ the stuff.... I basically just have to work out a practice program for myself and then do the work - my oldest drum machine is actually a totally-programmable Yamaha RX-7 from the late 80's, it can do anything you make it (NO presets). I've been doing beat displacement exercises for years but just to generate melodies. I'm O.K. on 5's, 7's, 10's & 14's - but I was just looking at some old Mahavishnu stuff, 15/16 and 19/8? Rowf. It's mostly the _overlapping_ things that the new math metal guys are doing that freak me out, but I've got to spend some time re-familiarizing myself with the basics first. Shucks - I was hoping for the magic secret shortcut....



I would just subdivide them. count 15 as 5+5+5 and 19 as, 4+4+4+4+3


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## Stitch (Dec 9, 2007)

I tend to write and play this stuff a lot, and its damn good fun. Its hard to explain, but eventually you just get a feel for it. I write and play in 7/8 or 9/8 so often now I hardly notice I'm doing it.

For the more complex stuff (one of our songs has a section in 29/16 against 4/4) I remember the rhythms on its own and where its repetitions lie against the 4/4 beat - i.e the displacements.

In other cases I just remember the rhythmic pattern and keep playing that (Like in New Millenium Cyanide Christ or I)

Some of the crazier, less structured stuff I have problems with (like From A Second Story Window) - but I think thats more to do with the fact that they don't really write in signatures, they just deliberatly right oddly.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Dec 9, 2007)

I count my parts in groups of 2 or 3 or 4 (and ocassionally 5).

Whether I use 2,3,4,5 depends how each part of the measure seem to naturally subdivide.

For example I (tend to) count 13/8 as 3,3,3,4. But the 3's and 4's are not nessisarily in that order.

For example here's my 13/8 bass riff

All straight 1/8 notes
G|----------------------------|
D|----------------------------|
A|-0-1-0-0-5-6-5-0-3-0-0-8-10-|
E|----------------------------|

Which I count as 3,4,3,3

All straight 1/8 notes
G|---------------------------|
D|---------------------------|
A|-3-0-0-0-1-0-0-0-6-0-0-0-0-|
E|---------------------------|

But I'd count this as 4,4,5


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## beepx22 (Dec 12, 2007)

yep, same here, if say i'm playing in 7/8 i'll count, 1-2-3,1-2-3-4...

10/8 is 1-2-3-1-2-3-1-2-3-4, 

the further i get into a riff i do a trick i learned years ago in marching band, say i had a four bar riff of 7/8 I'd count it in my head as

1-2-3-1-2-3-4/2-2-3-1-2-3-4/3-2-3-1-2-3-4/4-2-3-1-2-3-4

this helps me keep my measures straight until they're hammered home


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## DaveCarter (Dec 17, 2007)

i write and play a lot of this kinda stuff with my metal band and ive foun the best way (for me) is not to count it, just remember what it sounds like.

when i was learning Sikth's Bland Street Bloom I slowed it right down and tried to count the beats in the bar, but it just made things more complicated; its so much easier to just get into the groove and let it flow.

with my band i write most of the material in guitar pro so that i can send it to the other guys, and once we've listened to it a few times we just remember the sound and forget about the numbers.

hope that helps


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## Rick (Dec 18, 2007)

I don't. 

My brain hurts just from reading this stuff.


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## John_Strychnine (Dec 18, 2007)

You shoudln't count it, you should feel it.


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