# "FCKH8" Straight Talk About Gay Marriage



## GuitaristOfHell (Nov 17, 2010)




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## GuitaristOfHell (Nov 17, 2010)

Oh just a not also if you leave a post please don't be all " Gay is wrong" ect... Not saying you can't disagree, but this post is meant to support gays.


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## ry_z (Nov 17, 2010)

This rules.


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## Customisbetter (Nov 17, 2010)

I didn't approve of the Sweeping generalization of Republicans.

However the rest of it is win.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Nov 17, 2010)

Indeed it is.


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## josh pelican (Nov 19, 2010)

I should get one of those shirts.

SOME DUDES MARRY DUDES. GET OVER IT.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 19, 2010)

I hate this video so goddamn much.

If I was really on the fence or unsure about the topic of gay marriage, being cursed out like drag queens and small children, and sweeping generalizations wouldn't exactly help me side with them. Conservatives claim that gays demoralize wholesome values and to combat it you have small kids dropping F bombs like drunken old whores in a back alley dispute..yeah..really helpful. Shit like this just makes it worse for gay people, not better.


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## JeffFromMtl (Nov 19, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I hate this video so goddamn much.
> 
> If I was really on the fence or unsure about the topic of gay marriage, being cursed out like drag queens and small children, and sweeping generalizations wouldn't exactly help me side with them. Conservatives claim that gays demoralize wholesome values and to combat it you have small kids dropping F bombs like drunken old whores in a back alley dispute..yeah..really helpful. Shit like this just makes it worse for gay people, not better.



100% agree. Is this a pro-gay marriage campaign, or a pro-"liberal use of the word "fuck"" campaign? It doesn't seem particularly well thought-out to me. So the f-bomb is going to get peoples' attention. Great. I have nothing against gay people or "bad language". I've been to gay weddings. I have a mouth like a trucker. It's just that when I'm trying to get my point across intelligently, I refrain from sounding like an angry bastard. I have a feeling that half the bible-thumping rednecks that these campaigns are trying to fight will be up in arms now, not just because they think that gay marriage is a sin, but now also because they think they're going to corrupt their children with rotten language. I honestly don't believe that this campaign will speak to anyone who isn't already in support of gay marriage.


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## Customisbetter (Nov 19, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I hate this video so goddamn much.
> 
> If I was really on the fence or unsure about the topic of gay marriage, being cursed out like drag queens and small children, and sweeping generalizations wouldn't exactly help me side with them. Conservatives claim that gays demoralize wholesome values and to combat it you have small kids dropping F bombs like drunken old whores in a back alley dispute..yeah..really helpful. Shit like this just makes it worse for gay people, not better.



Drak makes a really good point actually. To a 20 year old internet machien like myself, this ad is harmless and transparent.

To the rest of the world (read:99% of people) this is a diorama of a parents worst nightmare.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Nov 19, 2010)

I too found the word "fuck" to be a weird one to have little kids say. I'm not fond of that but the video does have some good points like:
" If it were all about protecting marriage, you'd be making divorce illegal for straight people". Which I find to be true.


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## Necris (Nov 19, 2010)

To the average person any good points made in the video will most likely be overshadowed by the children saying fuck. Perfect execution of a bad idea.


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 19, 2010)

I dunno, I think it's funny and kind of cathartic. I doubt it will be watched much outside of the pro-gay community anyway; and it's not like it's going to change anyone's mind.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Nov 19, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> I dunno, I think it's funny and kind of cathartic. I doubt it will be watched much outside of the pro-gay community anyway; and it's not like it's going to change anyone's mind.


I don't think it was made to change anyone's mind. My guess is there just "saying some guys like guys and some girls like girls... get over it". That's just what I think the message is, not necessarily trying to change one's mind set, however I can see it being interpreted that way.


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## Krankguitarist (Nov 19, 2010)

Ohhhh nooooessss!

Children saying the f bomb!!!!!

How will our society ever possibly recover?!?!?!?!!

Oh, wait. South park's been doing it since the 90's. Well, nuts to that.


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## GuitaristOfHell (Nov 19, 2010)

South park


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## Dan (Nov 20, 2010)

Krankguitarist said:


> Ohhhh nooooessss!
> 
> Children saying the f bomb!!!!!
> 
> ...




Theres a difference between adults acting as children in a cartoon and the real world. 



Though Im pro gay marriage, this ad is only going to make the campaign worse. Like previously stated, people dont want to see children swearing. It made me feel a little uncomfortable watching it simply because of the amount of language used and the way the actual advert was put across.

Some of their points were valid, I will agree with that. However, I think using the word fuck after each sentence basically was just plain stupid and it makes them look like a bad influence not only on children whom they hope to adopt but the general publics perception of them is tarnished. You want to fight a Republican you need to make advertisements that will appeal to Republican voters.

On another note (and possibly a controversial one) i don't believe society is ready for gay marriages to have children. It isnt that i dont believe that gay couples can handle having a child, more i can see the psychological torment that these children (especially boys with two male fathers) would get from peers during their school years. People are still too small minded to accept that two men can have a loving relationship and raise a child.


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## Self Bias (Nov 20, 2010)

Straight up honesty, I think it's totally cool for a man to show affection towards another man. You will see as you get older the increasing tenderness and sensitivity between men "of a certain age". But no butthole shit- that's seriously twisted. Dude! poop comes out of there.


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## ry_z (Nov 20, 2010)

Self Bias said:


> But no butthole shit- that's seriously twisted. Dude! poop comes out of there.



You piss out of your dick.


I'm just saying.


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## Self Bias (Nov 20, 2010)

Yeah, but, well...hmm


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## groph (Nov 20, 2010)

Yeah, Drak makes a good point yet again.

I saw some of these videos and pretty much laughed my ass off the entire way through, especially when some little girl says "Don't FUCK with my two gay dads!" I find children swearing to be violently funny, for whatever reason. Still, it's not really making any new points, it's just another one of these "pissed off minority" campaigns, similar to the shit that gave feminists the stereotype of being chronically irate lesbians who want to chop down anything and everything that stands proud of the ground.

I kind of liked the commercial with Wanda Sykes that explains why the word "gay" is offensive perfectly. She's in a restaurant and overhears a group of teenage boys say "LOL THATS SO GHEY LOL" She walks over and lays out a perfectly logical argument that ends in "so how would you feel if I saw something stupid and said that's so 16 year old boy?" or something to that effect. I'm not for banning words and I don't support political correctness at all, but the whole "gay as the go-to word for disapproval of anything" is pretty stupid, I think. I try really hard not to say it.

The generalization of Republicans made me roll my eyes too when I first saw this video. 

So yeah, small children yelling fuck is hilarious and gets your attention, you've got the "gross out factor" for "ignorant straight men" when they show guys kissing, the "awesome factor" for "ignorant straight men" when they show girls kissing, everything is there for the liberation of gay people, right?

How's that been working out? Activism is effective when it's actually out changing things and not complaining from the sidelines.

EDIT: Pause this video at 14 seconds. RAAWWWWRRR


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## Necris (Nov 20, 2010)

Self Bias said:


> But no butthole shit- that's seriously twisted. Dude! poop comes out of there.


 


ry_z said:


> You piss out of your dick.
> 
> 
> I'm just saying.


 


Self Bias said:


> Yeah, but, well...hmm


 
And women piss out of their vaginas and occasionally people regardless of gender vomit out of their mouths. If your reason for being against homosexuality is your disgust with basic life funtions maybe its time to rethink your stance a bit.


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## renzoip (Nov 20, 2010)

What a video!! 

One a serious note, this ad is obviously directed towards young liberals who are already supportive of gay right. The point of it is not to convience anyone that gay marriage is ok or that gay people are moral or anything like that. The point is to reinforce and fire up those who are angry with the current state of gay rights. So, in that sense I think it is good to show that not only tea partiers and republicans are Mad As Hell. I think it is important that there are factions within the liberals that are willing to voice out their anger out loud however unpleasant I may find it. In any side of the political spectrum, it is precisely because of the extremist that we are able to recognize the moderates. Otherwise, the moderates would be seen as extremist. 

So, the video may not be my cup of tea, but I like the fact that they are not trying to please or compromise with the other side.


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## Dan (Nov 20, 2010)

Necris said:


> And women piss out of their vaginas and occasionally people regardless of gender vomit out of their mouths. If your reason for being against homosexuality is your disgust with basic life funtions maybe its time to rethink your stance a bit.



I think people were humoring the actual idea of it all. The first quote you put is a quote from something else. Don't be overly offended. I think if people were opposed then their words would have been stronger.


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## darren (Nov 20, 2010)

Necris said:


> And women piss out of their vaginas





I think somebody needs an anatomy lesson.


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## ry_z (Nov 20, 2010)

darren said:


> I think somebody needs an anatomy lesson.



Hell, I can't claim any expertise on that matter either.


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## Necris (Nov 20, 2010)

*facepalm* Only me... 

I guess we should all be thankful I have no aspirations to become a doctor.


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## aslsmm (Nov 20, 2010)

ha. me being from a mormon back ground and currently residing in a mormon community, i get hounded with anti gay marraige stuff. truth is i could care less if they want a legal document saying they are married. i dissagree with not allowing them to get legally married but i also fear that if it were to be unanimously leagal in all states that there would eventually be lawsuites against churches not being willing to marry gay couples, wich i also disagree with. if you wanna be gay and get married that cool, just don't expect people who are against it to support it either. just my thoughts.

ps. i love swear words because i think its stupid that our society thinks shit is in some way more offensive than poop, however, it is a poor display of maturity to have children saying fuck. it just strengthens the argument about gays degenerating our "perfect" society.


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## baboisking (Nov 20, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> ps. i love swear words because i think its stupid that our society thinks shit is in some way more offensive than poop, however, it is a poor display of maturity to have children saying fuck. it just strengthens the argument about gays degenerating our "perfect" society.



I agree.


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## baboisking (Nov 20, 2010)

What they mean makes sense (and I agree). How they say it is superfluous.


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 21, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> ha. me being from a mormon back ground and currently residing in a mormon community, i get hounded with anti gay marraige stuff. truth is i could care less if they want a legal document saying they are married. i dissagree with not allowing them to get legally married but i also fear that if it were to be unanimously leagal in all states that there would eventually be lawsuites against churches not being willing to marry gay couples, wich i also disagree with. if you wanna be gay and get married that cool, *just don't expect people who are against it to support it either*. just my thoughts.
> 
> ps. i love swear words because i think its stupid that our society thinks shit is in some way more offensive than poop, however, it is a poor display of maturity to have children saying fuck. it just strengthens the argument about gays degenerating our "perfect" society.


I agree with all of your post except for what I bolded.

It's discrimination, and it has no basis in anything but misguided religious fanaticism. Discrimination is not something that you can be okay with people happily doing.

I mean:
...if you're a black guy, and you don't want to be lynched, that's cool, but don't expect the KKK to not try to lynch you.
...if you're a girl and you want to vote, that's cool, but don't expect guys to let you/ not try and stop you.
...if you're into metal and don't want people to give you deaththreats for worshiping Satan when you don't that's cool, but don't expect people to not insult you and threaten to take your life.
...if you're an a doctor that performs abortions so that women who were raped but don't want to be shot and killed that's cool, but don't expect people to not actually kill you.
...if you happen to look like or have a name that in any way could cause ignorant people to equate you with the men who flew planes into the twin towers and don't want to be threatened and discriminated against constantly that's cool, but don't expect people to not threaten you and do everything they can to make other people think that you are indeed a terrorist that's cool, but don't expect it not to happen.

I very much do expect people to not discriminate, and be hateful, and intolerant, and to try and take away others rights.

(to reference the video in a way) I very FUCKING much expect that to not happen and in no way is it okay.

I can think of more examples, but in summation:

tl;dr What I bolded is wrong.


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## aslsmm (Nov 21, 2010)

^^ i see it differently. 
if you dissagree with a humans actions, i don't think that you should have to support it. i gues it would boil down to wether or not you believe being gay is a choice or not. i think it is.
i also think that while most of us are mature enough to let gay folks be gay, we still dissagree with it in some way or another, other wise getting called a '"fag" wouldn't be offensive.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 21, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> ^^ i see it differently.
> if you dissagree with a humans actions, i don't think that you should have to support it. i gues it would boil down to wether or not you believe being gay is a choice or not. i think it is.
> i also think that while most of us are mature enough to let gay folks be gay, we still dissagree with it in some way or another, other wise getting called a '"fag" wouldn't be offensive.



The man has a point.

For the record, I DO think you have to accept the fact that other people might not agree with who you are and/or what you do. It's a fact of life you just have to deal with. Tolerance means you put up with it. You don't have to like it, nor should you be forced to. When you start causing harm to people, then it's gone to far, but you can hate them all you want as long as it stays with you.


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## darren (Nov 21, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> ^^ i see it differently.
> if you dissagree with a humans actions, i don't think that you should have to support it. i gues it would boil down to wether or not you believe being gay is a choice or not. i think it is.


You don't have to agree, and you don't have to support what they do, who they are, or how they live their life, but you should at least support _their right to do so_ which is what freedom is all about. Denying people freedom is what America (and all free societies) claim to fight against. You can't have it both ways... people are either free or they're not. Denying one group of people freedom goes against everything a free society stands for.


> i also think that while most of us are mature enough to let gay folks be gay, we still dissagree with it in some way or another, other wise getting called a '"fag" wouldn't be offensive.


Calling someone (or something) "gay" because it equates to being something "bad" is also a problem.


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 21, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> ^^ i see it differently.
> if you dissagree with a humans actions, i don't think that you should have to support it. i gues it would boil down to wether or not you believe being gay is a choice or not. i think it is.
> 
> i also think that while most of us are mature enough to let gay folks be gay, we still dissagree with it in some way or another, other wise getting called a '"fag" wouldn't be offensive.


While you don't have to "support" it, that's what not what people against gays do: it's not that they don't support them, it's that they actively try to take away their rights based on nothing more than their own religious beliefs.
Also, everyone, EVERYONE should make decisions based on logic, reasoning, and thinking for themselves. Hearing gays are bad, thinking gays are bad as a result, doing things against gay =/= this. Unless you can show in some way just how people of the same sex getting married really is evil other than "in this book, at first there was a guy and a girl" then you've got no reason to have a negative opinion about it, or to try and take away other peoples rights based on the majority rule you may happen to have.
And in the least offensive, reigning myself in way I can possibly say this, it *doesn't matter *if it's a choice or not. It is absolutely none of anyone but 2 people who want to get married's business if they should get married or not. Being a christian is a choice, so if we can get enough people to say that christian's shouldn't be allowed to get married, should we do that? Is _that_ okay?


In response to your second paragraph: all that would mean is that you personally disagree with it. The reason being called any name is offensive is the intent behind it, it's obvious that whoever is calling you a name is trying to insult you, regardless of what they're saying. Honestly, I wouldn't be offended if someone called me a fag, I'd do the same thing I do most of the time when someone insults me: I thank them, smile, and go on about my business.
Returning to it being offensive, the only other reason it might be offensive to some people is that they'd been fed the same "gays are bad" rhetoric their entire lives. If I bombarded you with crap about how white rats were evil and terrible and terrifying ( Little Albert experiment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ) you would most likely end up with something against white rats. And yes, Little Albert is really about stimulus generalization, that underlying concept is there and still applies.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 21, 2010)

darren said:


> Calling someone (or something) "gay" because it equates to being something "bad" is also a problem.



Ya know..that never sat right with me. Why does anyone care that gay has just become a word used to describe something lame. It's just a word. If someone calling something gay bothers someone that much then they need to focus more on why they're so sensitive and less on a part of speech they're never going to change. I certainly don't take it to heart when someone calls something gay, especially considering most of the people saying it don't have any issues with gay people, many who say it ARE gay (I'm one of them). It really annoys me that the gay issue in general is becoming something to cradle and pander to people who don't seem to get that if you had any self worth in the first place, terms wouldn't bother you.


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## gunshow86de (Nov 21, 2010)

highlordmugfug said:


> I agree with all of your post except for what I bolded.............
> 
> ......tl;dr What I bolded is wrong.



Besides the fact that an opinion can't inherently be "wrong," I think you are perhaps misinterpreting what aslsmm was saying.

Based on how I read what he said (you cannot sue a church to force them to marry a gay couple), I will agree......

For the record, I am not religious and I have no problem with gay marriage, both as a legal union and as a religious union, provided that the religion accepts their union. However, for me, the idea that you could use the legal system to change a religion's views and practices flies directly in the face of the 1st Amendment.

I do think that it's ridiculous that in this "free country," gay marriages are not recognized by the law in every state. But the separation of church and state isn't really possible, so long as religions exist. If only for the simple fact that a religious person's onions/morality are derived from their religion.

I think, in the end, all you can do is bring the propositions to the voters, and let them decide.


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 21, 2010)

gunshow86de said:


> Besides the fact that an opinion can't inherently be "wrong," I think you are perhaps misinterpreting what aslsmm was saying.
> 
> Based on how I read what he said (you cannot sue a church to force them to marry a gay couple), I will agree......
> 
> ...


I'm not saying that his opinion is wrong, but that the way he is thinking about that particular thing is wrong:
They don't have to agree with it, and they don't have to support it, but by no means do they have the right to take away other peoples rights based on nothing but their own opinions with no sound fact or logical proofs to back them up.

SO, fuck taking it to the voters. The majority can't vote to screw everyone else out of their rights just because they are in the majority.


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## AcademiaNervosa (Nov 22, 2010)

gunshow86de said:


> I think, in the end, all you can do is bring the propositions to the voters, and let them decide.


In_ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_, Justice Robert Jackson wrote in his majority opinion:

"The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections."


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## Sang-Drax (Nov 22, 2010)

I'll chime in later on - right now I've got a shitload of stuff to do at work. However, I did want to point this out:



aslsmm said:


> i gues it would boil down to wether or not you believe being gay is a choice or not. i think it is.



It's not.


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## gunshow86de (Nov 22, 2010)

highlordmugfug said:


> I'm not saying that his opinion is wrong, but that the way he is thinking about that particular thing is wrong:
> They don't have to agree with it, and they don't have to support it, but by no means do they have the right to take away other peoples rights based on nothing but their own opinions with no sound fact or logical proofs to back them up.
> 
> SO, fuck taking it to the voters. The majority can't vote to screw everyone else out of their rights just because they are in the majority.



Where was he or I talking about taking away rights?  The church has the right to not accept any marriage, gay or straight. And anyone has the right to not allow a marriage ceremony on their property.

If you are talking about religious groups lobbying to take away the legality of gay marriages, then I agree with you. Frankly, if they aren't affiliated with the church then it's none of their damn business.


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## gunshow86de (Nov 22, 2010)

Sang-Drax said:


> It's not.





The only choice a gay person has is whether to stay in the closet or not, which I don't think anyone should have to do.


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## aslsmm (Nov 22, 2010)

It's not.[/QUOTE]

in your opinion.


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## ry_z (Nov 22, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> > It's not.
> 
> 
> in your opinion.



And in my opinion, as a gay man.

And in the opinion of every gay person I've ever talked to.

In light of the violence, discrimination, and negativity aimed at gay people around the world, if being gay were a choice, _why the hell would anyone choose it_?

You're straight, presumably. When did you choose to be straight?


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## aslsmm (Nov 22, 2010)

highlordmugfug said:


> I'm not saying that his opinion is wrong, but that the way he is thinking about that particular thing is wrong:
> They don't have to agree with it, and they don't have to support it, but by no means do they have the right to take away other peoples rights based on nothing but their own opinions with no sound fact or logical proofs to back them up.
> 
> SO, fuck taking it to the voters. The majority can't vote to screw everyone else out of their rights just because they are in the majority.


 
how exactly am i thinking about it? you arent a mind reader. besides forcing a social group (any church) to change their standards is against the constitution. wether you agree with their views or not it's still their right to feel that way. 

also let me clarify. i guess saying being gay is a choice is to broad of a statement. it may not be a choice to be attracted to the same sex but it is a choice to have sex with some one who is the same sex. i really don't care if you are gay or not, i don't hate gay people or non gay people, but i do feel that there is a choice that is made some where along the line. i'm not saying its wrong. 
also when did it become a crime to not agree with being gay? (which i never said but am being treated as though i have buy highlordmugfug) even if that was my view i don't see how that would be a big deal. my brother is an atheist and im LDS, both of us disagree with the others religous beliefs (wich isn't a choice i was born LDS) but neither of us feel animosity towards each other for it.


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## ry_z (Nov 22, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> both of us disagree with the others religous beliefs (wich isn't a choice i was born LDS)



You may have been born into a family with a particular set of beliefs, but those beliefs weren't something you yourself were born with. They were taught.


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## gunshow86de (Nov 22, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> in your opinion.



That's not an opinion. I have many gay friends, and none of them made the choice to be gay. I know some of them tried to be straight and slept with women, and they said it was a very uncomfortable experience. In the end, they said they couldn't deny their sexuality.

I'm not trying to jump down your throat for believing that homosexuality is wrong, but sexuality is a trait you are born with, in much the same way as race and gender are.


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## Razzy (Nov 22, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> also let me clarify. i guess saying being gay is a choice is to broad of a statement. it may not be a choice to be attracted to the same sex but it is a choice to have sex with some one who is the same sex.



It's a choice to have sex with anyone, I don't really see your point here.


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## aslsmm (Nov 22, 2010)

gunshow86de said:


> That's not an opinion. I have many gay friends, and none of them made the choice to be gay. I know some of them tried to be straight and slept with women, and they said it was a very uncomfortable experience. In the end, they said they couldn't deny their sexuality.
> 
> I'm not trying to jump down your throat for believing that homosexuality is wrong, but sexuality is a trait you are born with, in much the same way as race and gender are.


i never said i thought being gay was wrong. infact i have pointed out several different times on this thread that i don't feel that way. 

im going to go back to posting on guitars. this thread is obviously not a enjoyable one for me or other folks posting on it.


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## Razzy (Nov 22, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> i thought being gay was wrong



Seriously dude? 
j/k


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## Krankguitarist (Nov 22, 2010)

aslsmm said:


> in your opinion.



This isn't subject to opinion, the sooner we as a society can accept this fact the sooner we can move on from this nonsense.

Two does not equal three. Two will never equal three. No individual or group of individuals can change that fact by holding the opinion that two _does_ equal three. 

In the same way, a person can argue that homosexuality is a choice until they're blue in the face. It won't change a damn thing.


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 22, 2010)

gunshow86de said:


> If you are talking about religious groups lobbying to take away the legality of gay marriages, then I agree with you. Frankly, if they aren't affiliated with the church then it's none of their damn business.


This is what I was talking about, it doesn't really matter if a church refuses to marry someone, but to try and make it so that NOone can marry them, that's where I take major issue.


aslsmm said:


> how exactly am i thinking about it? you arent a mind reader. besides forcing a social group (any church) to change their standards is against the constitution. wether you agree with their views or not it's still their right to feel that way.
> 
> also let me clarify. i guess saying being gay is a choice is to broad of a statement. it may not be a choice to be attracted to the same sex but it is a choice to have sex with some one who is the same sex. i really don't care if you are gay or not, i don't hate gay people or non gay people, but i do feel that there is a choice that is made some where along the line. i'm not saying its wrong.
> also when did it become a crime to not agree with being gay? (which i never said but am being treated as though i have buy highlordmugfug) even if that was my view i don't see how that would be a big deal. my brother is an atheist and im LDS, both of us disagree with the others religous beliefs (wich isn't a choice i was born LDS) but neither of us feel animosity towards each other for it.


Not saying that they have to change their views, but if they're lobbying to make it so that people who are gay can't get married, then I AM saying that they are most decidedly in the wrong

Saying that a choice is made at some point means nothing, everyone make a choice straight gay or otherwise who they want to be with, that doesn't have anything to do with anything and if someone was trying to say that it did, the only logical reason would be because they thought that there WAS something wrong with "making the choice" to have relations with someone of the same sex.

And no, like Ryan said, you weren't born of a certain religion. That would be your parents and the way they brought you up but it has nothing to do with genetics.


Krankguitarist said:


> This isn't subject to opinion, the sooner we as a society can accept this fact the sooner we can move on from this nonsense.
> 
> Two does not equal three. Two will never equal three. No individual or group of individuals can change that fact by holding the opinion that two _does_ equal three.
> 
> In the same way, a person can argue that homosexuality is a choice until they're blue in the face. It won't change a damn thing.


This, this, this, this, this.


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## gunshow86de (Nov 22, 2010)

highlordmugfug said:


> This is what I was talking about, it doesn't really matter if a church refuses to marry someone, but to try and make it so that NOone can marry them, that's where I take major issue.



Ah, now I agree with this. I must have misunderstood you the first time around.


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 22, 2010)

gunshow86de said:


> Ah, now I agree with this. I must have misunderstood you the first time around.


S'all good, I should have been clearer.


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## emperor_black (Nov 22, 2010)

In the end, it seemed as if the video made fun of a very serious topic


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## TemjinStrife (Nov 22, 2010)

AcademiaNervosa said:


> In_ West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette_, Justice Robert Jackson wrote in his majority opinion:
> 
> "The very purpose of a Bill of Rights was to withdraw certain subjects from the vicissitudes of political controversy, to place them beyond the reach of majorities and officials and to establish them as legal principles to be applied by the courts. One's right to life, liberty, and property, to free speech, a free press, freedom of worship and assembly, and other fundamental rights may not be submitted to vote; they depend on the outcome of no elections."



YES YES YES YES THIS.

WHY IS THIS SUCH A DIFFICULT THING TO UNDERSTAND?!?

The court systems and the Constitution are often an oppressed minority's only recourse against the persecution of the majority. It is not up to the voters or the senators to determine our basic rights; they were set forth in the Constitution, and it is up to the Courts to attempt to apply them (although not always in the most progressive manner.)


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## orb451 (Nov 22, 2010)

I think there's several issues at work here:

1) Don't force your beliefs on others. Put your beliefs out there, and do so tastefully and with respect. You do that, and people will be MUCH more likely to respond positively than to try to cram something down their throats.

2) There is Gay, the lifestyle choice and Gay the sexual preference. The latter I believe you are born with and/or genetically predisposed to. The former, is a choice. The line between the two is a nice clear shade of mud.

3) There is Political Correctness at work in our society and I for one am tired of it. It's an unending load of horseshit. Trying to tell people what they can say, and not say, what they can feel, and not feel, etc. Enough. If someone wants to equate something stupid with the word "gay" then I say let them. Whether they're straight, gay, bi, or whatever. Same with a lot of other offensive words too. 

Freedom means being free to choose. Free to choose what you want to do, what you want to feel, what you want to say. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That and your own opinion are about all that you are "entitled" to in my estimation. Beyond that, you are free to be as ignorant or as enlightened as your mind, time and money will allow. And that freedom means taking the good, with the bad. 

My advice to the gay community is: Lighten up. They *are* just words. That *you* *choose* to give them weight and power over you, is a choice *you* must live with. Let it go. In the grand scheme of things, we're here for a very short while. Why waste the time and energy worrying about whether someone says something is "gay" or not?

My advice to the religiously conservative community is: Lighten up. People are going to do whatever they're going to do regardless of how much or how evil you *personally* feel that it is. Because you think you have the moral *high-ground* does not absolve you from using empathy and understanding for people that just want to live their lives in the way that makes them happiest. Enough with the preaching and holier than thou nonsense. Especially as it pertains to the Gay community. Again, there's bigger shit to worry about in life than whether or not Peter like's sucking Paul's pecker or whether Jenny likes scissoring Julie in her spare time. Let it go. When you do, you'll be free to focus on bigger and better things.


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## Sang-Drax (Nov 22, 2010)

Krankguitarist said:


> This isn't subject to opinion, the sooner we as a society can accept this fact the sooner we can move on from this nonsense.



This.

@ aslssm: Even though you may have nothing against gays yourself, the statement that 'it's a choice' is precisely the loophole that feeds the hate of so many. No-one's saying you're a homophobe; what I am saying is that you're talking about something you obviously know shit about. And that's because you're not gay.

I am, and I've lived a miserable life until I figured that out. I've had my share of awkward dates with some amazing girls, feeling guilty for not being attracted to them. It's not a fucking choice; not in the least. 

Besides, like ry_z said, it's simply stupid to assume someone would choose to be gay. Maybe it's not what you meant, but it is what you said. These words, so lightly and repeatedly uttered, poison the ears of anyone who have the smallest tendency to bigotry, as they serve as an excuse for their hate - and it's simply not true!

If by 'choice' you mean "love someone of your own gender or live behind a heavy mask in misery, wondering when you'll die and get over it, just to satisfy the sadistic bigotry of others", well, it's such an unfair one that you shouldn't even repeat it. 

Still on topic (sort of), I don't get offended easily. I don't care if people say 'this is so gay', nor do I care about the use of the word 'fag' or the Portuguese equivalent to it. I don't give a shit. But I do feel like speaking up whenever anyone says it's a choice.

Sorry for the overall long post.

edit: to whoever rep'd this post... feel free to send me a PM (he knows what I'm talking about). I mean, seriously!


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## Dan (Nov 24, 2010)

Damn gays with all your swearing and your pink t-shirts


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## darren (Dec 1, 2010)




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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 1, 2010)

God I hate, hate, HATE the "It gets better" campaign..don't even get me started on that, lol. Funny you posted that.


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## Randy (Dec 1, 2010)

What about it do you hate?


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## Customisbetter (Dec 1, 2010)

I actually liked it. 

Also was that "cube mate" a guy or chick? I seriously couldn't tell.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 1, 2010)

Randy said:


> What about it do you hate?



To me it's a kneejerk reaction to a problem that goes far beyond "yeah, just get over it". Telling kids that everything magically gets better with age is flat out lying, and the whole thing seems to just allow this "straight master" mentality. Straight people beat you up, it's what they do, just accept it because it gets better. Teaching submissive behavior in the face of opposition for kids who have no self esteem is a HORRIBLE thing to do. Instead of dealing with the realities of the situation, it's more just a "smile for the dolly" routine. We get the kid to do what we want by waving what he/she wants around hoping they take the bait. Whether or not they get what they're after is irrelevant as long as they do what we want...and that annoys the fuck out of me.


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## Krankguitarist (Dec 1, 2010)

Randy said:


> What about it do you hate?



Pessimism is metal.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> To me it's a kneejerk reaction to a problem that goes far beyond "yeah, just get over it". Telling kids that everything magically gets better with age is flat out lying, and the whole thing seems to just allow this "straight master" mentality. Straight people beat you up, it's what they do, just accept it because it gets better. Teaching submissive behavior in the face of opposition for kids who have no self esteem is a HORRIBLE thing to do. Instead of dealing with the realities of the situation, it's more just a "smile for the dolly" routine. We get the kid to do what we want by waving what he/she wants around hoping they take the bait. Whether or not they get what they're after is irrelevant as long as they do what we want...and that annoys the fuck out of me.



Boy...I don't get this impression at all from the campaign.

I've never seen anybody say "Just grin and bear it people...don't fight back, because things get better eventually if you endure all their crap!".

It's more along the lines of "Don't give up" than "Submit". Because the ultimate form of submission is to just, fucking, end it all. Say "you're right, I suck, I'm gonna kill myself".

"Don't give up" means that you fight back. Don't give in. That's pretty metal.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 1, 2010)

Krankguitarist said:


> Pessimism is metal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't know if you've ever dealt with people actually considering suicide..or if you've ever been one. Telling a gay kid who's seriously contemplating suicide that things just get better because you hung around is bogus. Things get better because you learn to stand up for yourself, ignore the shit people say, and you're grounded in reality. I've seen several of those vids. Having some kid hold onto life waiting for his husband, kids, and perfect stress free life is not preparing him for the fact that regardless of whether or not your life is picture perfect like some of the people in the video, your reasons for living should go beyond that, and the only way you develop those reasons is by having the will to stand up for yourself.

It's easy to just say "don't give up" but what does that mean to a kid who doesn't even know what other option to have? As an adult who was one of the very kids this campaign is supposed to be for, I know that if I had this around when I was going through shit I wouldn't have lasted.


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## Randy (Dec 1, 2010)

Well Drakkar, I don't think their original "Shit's going to be hard forever, so get over it now, ya' pussy" campaign tested too well.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 1, 2010)

Randy said:


> Well Drakkar, I don't think their original "Shit's going to be hard forever, so get over it now, ya' pussy" campaign tested too well.



Honestly I think they're skating over the actual issue. Instead of looking at kids committing suicide, go towards WHY they are committing suicide. If a kid realizes how much power he/she has in defending themselves and seeing themselves as valuable, they'd be far less likely to hurt themselves. Lying to a fragile kid and giving a half assed "it'll all work out" doesn't help. It's like telling someone hanging out of a window to just hold on. If they could do that in the first place would they even need help? Someone who is SERIOUSLY considering suicide isn't going to change their minds because some celebrity or other random stranger who knows nothing about them told them to not do it. These kids still aren't getting the help that they need and campaigns like this become a hollow cause for people to get behind so they can say they did something, without looking at the reality of the situation and wondering if there's something more they can actually do.

It bothers me that kids in serious need get hollow help from a campaign that's more about donning a good-guy badge than about really getting the meat of the issue.

Life IS hard, however teaching what it takes to make it is a hell of a lot more useful than telling kids it'll get easier and you won't have to worry once you get out of high school.


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## Randy (Dec 1, 2010)

Well, that part of it I can agree with... the "hollow campaign" thing. Any campaign that is big enough to be... well, considered a campaign is a bit of a whitewash. Just because you're gay doesn't make you and all other gay people like one another... you'll find comfort and you'll find strength in different things. I would argue that if the depth and breath of this campaign is just "make some commercials and hope it goes away", then they're missing their mark and it's more of a "white man's burden" of helping kids out than it is an actual help. I'd be interested to see what kind of 'grass-roots' stuff they do. Actually 1-on-1 getting a real conversation with someone who's been through it and can be real with you carries a lot more value, IMO.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 1, 2010)

Randy said:


> Well, that part of it I can agree with... the "hollow campaign" thing. Any campaign that is big enough to be... well, considered a campaign is a bit of a whitewash. Just because you're gay doesn't make you and all other gay people like one another... you'll find comfort and you'll find strength in different things. I would argue that if the depth and breath of this campaign is just "make some commercials and hope it goes away", then they're missing their mark and it's more of a "white man's burden" of helping kids out. I'd be interested to see what kind of 'grass-roots' stuff they do. Actually 1-on-1 getting a real conversation with someone who's been through it and can be real with you carries a lot more value, IMO.



EXACTLY. If they could actually reach out to kids other than post videos it would help. Depression and suicidal thoughts are serious conditions and it takes WAY more than a youtube video to fix those problems. That's what bothers me. As someone who went through that, with depression to boot, it scares me that they can be that careless with kids who are seriously in danger of hurting themselves because they feel alone and don't have a way of reaching out for a lifeline in any way.


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## Krankguitarist (Dec 2, 2010)

Campaigns like these are meant to raise awareness, not fix problems. They're supposed to _motivate_ people to fix problems.

What they're saying is true: Life has it's ups and downs. The simple knowledge that things aren't always going to be 100% shit is, at the very least, a step in the right direction.

But I agree, these things won't fix any problems by themselves. All this bullying bullshit within our society has to be dealt with. Kids aren't the only one's that participate in it. Just put on any primetime drama, see what television believes is acceptable behavior.

Or hell, less than a month ago there was an election. Re-watch some of those attack ads. What the fuck is wrong with our politicians, eh?

I was bullied in school. By other students and some particularly fucked up teachers. Had some shitty stuff happen to me. I pulled through alright. I built myself up and things got better. Thing's certainly aren't fan-fucking-tastic, but they're better than they were in high school. There is hope out there. Saying "it gets better" isn't a lie. It does, however, take some effort for things to get better.


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## TreWatson (Dec 6, 2010)

I agree with the "it gets better" videos, having a rather large number of LGBT ( one of the people I'm going to speak with about some EP videos is actually a MTF Transsexual named Renzo, a great friend and fellow shredder), i gotta say, if you just hold on and learn to be comfortable in your own skin, things improve.

now to the OP video, the kid swearing was funny, but it just struck me as another "we're x minority and this has got to stop!"

oh, and for the record: women don't pee out of their vaginas. please go back to biology and/or sex ed.

just wanted to say. haha


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## Necris (Dec 6, 2010)

TreWatson said:


> oh, and for the record: women don't pee out of their vaginas. please go back to biology and/or sex ed.
> 
> just wanted to say. haha


 
I have a habit of just using vagina as a catch all term for the female genitals, it makes me look like an idiot sometimes. I'd go back and fix it but we are way beyond the 2-day period where I could have. Life goes on.


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## TreWatson (Dec 6, 2010)

indeed it does. you know i'm just splitting hairs over nothing man.

you're my ing bro


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## renzoip (Dec 7, 2010)

TreWatson said:


> ( one of the people I'm going to speak with about some EP videos is actually a MTF Transsexual named Renzo, a great friend and fellow shredder)



My name is also Renzo and I'm also a shredder, interesting... I'm not a transsexual, though (nothing against transexuals).


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