# Cyberpunk release



## Werecow (Dec 7, 2020)

Preloads are starting now, but looks like the release/review version is really buggy, despite the delays. Some of the reviews mark it down pretty heavily because of the bugs.

I'm gonna hold off playing it till it gets patched up


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 7, 2020)

It does make me wonder how many people who complained about the delays are going to be the same ones complaining about how buggy it is.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 7, 2020)

TheBlackBard said:


> It does make me wonder how many people who complained about the delays are going to be the same ones complaining about how buggy it is.



All of them. A big game like this? Always going to need some day 1, week 1 patches. Even if for just some side quests. 

Just wait until those expecting it to change their lives realize that it’s still just a game, lol. 

Hopefully a very good one though. Makes me want to build a PC.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 7, 2020)

uggh i just read polygon and verge's reviews and BOTH complained about the game's lack of non binary pronouns/transgender characters (even though you can be a dude with a vagina or vice versa or have no genitals). Woke game journalists are the worst, just tell me how the game runs and if it's worth buying ffs.

Both also mentioned the game being buggy, especially on PC. 


I'm going to hold off getting it until CDPR actually polishes the game.


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## ImNotAhab (Dec 7, 2020)

It is also odd that some outlets gave it 10/10 despite it having a lot of bugs. There are so few reputable game review sources.

Saying that, it must be awful trying to release optimized experiences for like 10 different platforms with so many extra challenges on top of normal game development hurdles.


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## ImNotAhab (Dec 7, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm going to hold off getting it until CDPR actually polishes the game.



Might be worth mentioning, for the consoles at least there are monster day one patches planned. I imagine PC is the same.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 7, 2020)

ImNotAhab said:


> Might be worth mentioning, for the consoles at least there are monster day one patches planned. I imagine PC is the same.


yeah we'll see how much the patches help. CDPR is usually pretty good at squashing bugs but I'm not in any hurry to grab the game. I have a big backlog of games to get through still.


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 7, 2020)

From what I understand, the first patch is supposed to help with stability and performance. Maybe the bugs happening are dealt with? Perhaps the most annoying thing is going to be all the detractors looking for a reason to say "c?!?!? I ToLd YoU iT wOuLd FlOp! ReEeEeEeE!" I always expect an open world game to have bugs and such.


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## Werecow (Dec 7, 2020)

ImNotAhab said:


> Might be worth mentioning, for the consoles at least there are monster day one patches planned. I imagine PC is the same.



Don't know what version a lot of the reviews are, but PC Gamer have said they used what the devs told them will be the day 1 patch, and the review is still marked down with bugs. I think the best thing is to sit and wait it out a while. I don't want to spoil my experience with some of the bugs they wrote about.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 7, 2020)

as someone who loves glitches and broken games, i'm very excited to play this


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 7, 2020)

I don't think games should ever be judged by their first unpatched release. New Vegas on release and New Vegas with its final patch are two very different experiences. On launch the game was bombarded with low scores and the team that worked on it lost out on their bonus because the game didn't meet the rating specified in their contract, despite buckling down and patching most of the bugs in the first 2 months while bringing out 4 DLCs. 

There's very few reasons to be a bug tester and you will get a much better and truer gaming experience by waiting for a more polished game. A game this size is going to need 1-3 months.


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## ImNotAhab (Dec 7, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't think games should ever be judged by their first unpatched release. New Vegas on release and New Vegas with its final patch are two very different experiences. On launch the game was bombarded with low scores and the team that worked on it lost out on their bonus because the game didn't meet the rating specified in their contract, despite buckling down and patching most of the bugs in the first 2 months while bringing out 4 DLCs.
> 
> There's very few reasons to be a bug tester and you will get a much better and truer gaming experience by waiting for a more polished game. A game this size is going to need 1-3 months.


That's a point of view I tend to share as well. Every open world game has issues. Witcher 3 had a roughly 3 months improvement cycle if I remember correctly. Every Ubisoft game is about the same. Nature of the beast stuff.

Read some of the reviews. It's interesting, there is little negativity, seems universal that it's a good game. The gripes seem to be that it's like an RPG greatest hits instead of breaking new ground and disconnect from the urgency of the narrative vs sandbox sillyness. I think you could apply that to almost any big rpg.

<Shrugs so hard that shoulders dislocate>


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## Xaios (Dec 7, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't think games should ever be judged by their first unpatched release. New Vegas on release and New Vegas with its final patch are two very different experiences. On launch the game was bombarded with low scores and the team that worked on it lost out on their bonus because the game didn't meet the rating specified in their contract, despite buckling down and patching most of the bugs in the first 2 months while bringing out 4 DLCs.


I love New Vegas, but it's _still_ a hellscape of bugs all these years later. I had _looooooots_ of CTDs and several corrupt save files on my most recent playthrough. I love Obsidian and Black Isle before them, but they give Bethesda a run for their money for releasing bug-ridden products and, in my experience, somehow have an _even worse_ track record of fixing them over time. Hell, they somehow released a more buggy game than Bethesda did on the same engine despite having a two year buffer. As a game, New Vegas is certainly better than FO3, but if you want to compare stability at the point where they ended support, FO3 completely trounces New Vegas.


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## TedEH (Dec 7, 2020)

I feel like from the marketing, I never quite got a feel for what kind of game it's supposed to be, and that makes me worry that the game itself isn't going to be too sure either. It reads to me as a style-over-substance Deus-Ex-ish but more edgy kind of a deal. Now that reviews are coming out, it might be easier to get a clear picture of what they game is - but I'll probably end up waiting for a price drop / sale, then digging into it eventually.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 7, 2020)

I’m preloaded on PC and the day zero patch is almost as big as the game. I am really psyched to play it but will spend a lot of time on side quests and messing around for the first couple weeks until stuff gets patched. I remember RDR2 pc launch got so much shit in the web but I had a fine experience.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 8, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I feel like from the marketing, I never quite got a feel for what kind of game it's supposed to be, and that makes me worry that the game itself isn't going to be too sure either. It reads to me as a style-over-substance Deus-Ex-ish but more edgy kind of a deal. Now that reviews are coming out, it might be easier to get a clear picture of what they game is - but I'll probably end up waiting for a price drop / sale, then digging into it eventually.


my initial impressions from all the previews tells me that this game is just going to be a gta-style sandbox game with a blade runner skin. and ironically, for a game called "cyberpunk," i'm not seeing a whole lot of actual cyberpunk elements


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 8, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> my initial impressions from all the previews tells me that this game is just going to be a gta-style sandbox game with a blade runner skin. and ironically, for a game called "cyberpunk," i'm not seeing a whole lot of actual cyberpunk elements




There are plenty of cyberpunk elements. Big corps, dystopian, emphasis on sci-fi tech, emphasis on anarchy. Not everything's going to be black leather.


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## lurè (Dec 8, 2020)

Bought skyrim at day one, I don't fear the bugs.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 8, 2020)

TheBlackBard said:


> There are plenty of cyberpunk elements. Big corps, dystopian, emphasis on sci-fi tech, emphasis on anarchy. Not everything's going to be black leather.


it certainly has some of the tropes down, but i just don't feel the nihilistic dread. it feels like cyberpunk-lite. too many good looking people with nice haircuts. i get that this is a AAA game but i wish they'd stop skirting around the subject matter


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 8, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> my initial impressions from all the previews tells me that this game is just going to be a gta-style sandbox game with a blade runner skin. and ironically, for a game called "cyberpunk," i'm not seeing a whole lot of actual cyberpunk elements



Hope its better than Billy Idol's version.


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## StevenC (Dec 8, 2020)

Game 8+ years in the making delayed 8 months needs you to wait a further 3 months after release to fix bugs. That seems nihilistic and dystopian enough.



KnightBrolaire said:


> uggh i just read polygon and verge's reviews and BOTH complained about the game's lack of non binary pronouns/transgender characters (even though you can be a dude with a vagina or vice versa or have no genitals). Woke game journalists are the worst, just tell me how the game runs and if it's worth buying ffs.


This seems like a fairly valid criticism though. They've made enough of a deal about gender and sex in the game to just end up half assing it. If you have a story designed around options and immersion but leave out options that break emersion, then yeah that's a negative point against how well you made the story. CDPR made the decision to put that stuff in the game and should get flack for doing it badly, nobody criticises the Witcher for lack of pronoun options because it's not a part of the story.


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## TedEH (Dec 8, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> too many good looking people with nice haircuts


I do kinda feel like gaming as a whole has somehow convinced itself that "believable" characters or narratives means modern/hip/relatable "I feel personally represented in this avatar" customization instead of just writing things that make sense in context. It's the post apocalypse and you're one of a handful of survivors scraping together to fight off robots/zombies/aliens/"corporations"/cartoon bad guys/etc, and most of your time is spent murdering people and solving basic logic puzzles in the name of saving the universe - but none of that is believable unless I have my particular millennial-side-head-shave haircut and all the evil space Nazis know my sexual preferences.


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 8, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> it certainly has some of the tropes down, but i just don't feel the nihilistic dread. it feels like cyberpunk-lite. too many good looking people with nice haircuts. i get that this is a AAA game but i wish they'd stop skirting around the subject matter




I can see what you're saying in that regard. Who knows, though, maybe it's something we'll experience in the main quest. Myself, since I'm working 6 days a week, 56 hours a week, I probably won't play till I'm off for Christmas. Between Cyberpunk and all the Warhammer 40K novels I just bought, I'm going to be quite busy. Haha!


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 8, 2020)

StevenC said:


> Game 8+ years in the making delayed 8 months needs you to wait a further 3 months after release to fix bugs. That seems nihilistic and dystopian enough.




Thing is, people really can't complain. It probably did need more time before it released, but with the onslaught of fans sending death threats, among other things, berating them online, what would you have them do? That said, I expect CDPR will go in and fix things as they need fixing.


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## StevenC (Dec 8, 2020)

TheBlackBard said:


> Thing is, people really can't complain. It probably did need more time before it released, but with the onslaught of fans sending death threats, among other things, berating them online, what would you have them do? That said, I expect CDPR will go in and fix things as they need fixing.


I appreciate it takes time to print physical copies of games and they still work on bug fixes after that, which is normal. But I don't think CDPR, as lauded as they are, should be getting away with releasing a day one patch as big as the game. I don't think anyone should, and just because the EAs and Ubisofts do that in their money grabs masquerading as videogames doesn't mean we should be giving CDPR a break.

I'll admit after seeing some of the previously released trailers and gameplay that this game doesn't really interest me, a prime example of trying to justify their R-rating with lots of F-words. But when these are the practices of the "best in the business", as some people call CDPR, I have to say it adds massively to the dystopian immersion.


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 8, 2020)

StevenC said:


> I appreciate it takes time to print physical copies of games and they still work on bug fixes after that, which is normal. But I don't think CDPR, as lauded as they are, should be getting away with releasing a day one patch as big as the game. I don't think anyone should, and just because the EAs and Ubisofts do that in their money grabs masquerading as videogames doesn't mean we should be giving CDPR a break.
> 
> I'll admit after seeing some of the previously released trailers and gameplay that this game doesn't really interest me, a prime example of trying to justify their R-rating with lots of F-words. But when these are the practices of the "best in the business", as some people call CDPR, I have to say it adds massively to the dystopian immersion.




I get that. That said, how they end up handling everything in the future will determine whether or not this blemish stays on here for me. Me personally? I expected a MUCH bigger download size, I guess this doesn't chap me too much, although we'll see where the game heads and the decisions of the developers. I'm confident that they'll find a way to make it right, as they've done what they can to stick right by the customers in the past.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 8, 2020)

StevenC said:


> I appreciate it takes time to print physical copies of games and they still work on bug fixes after that, which is normal. But I don't think CDPR, as lauded as they are, should be getting away with releasing a day one patch as big as the game. I don't think anyone should, and just because the EAs and Ubisofts do that in their money grabs masquerading as videogames doesn't mean we should be giving CDPR a break.
> 
> I'll admit after seeing some of the previously released trailers and gameplay that this game doesn't really interest me, a prime example of trying to justify their R-rating with lots of F-words. But when these are the practices of the "best in the business", as some people call CDPR, I have to say it adds massively to the dystopian immersion.


bro, they were receiving death threats. they were working literal slave hours to get this thing out the door. the hype got out of control and was making people go insane. if i were CDPR, i'd want this game released asap before some crazy motherfucker doxxes me and slaughters my entire family

and besides, day one patches are the norm nowadays. hardly something worth criticizing


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## StevenC (Dec 8, 2020)

TheBlackBard said:


> I get that. That said, how they end up handling everything in the future will determine whether or not this blemish stays on here for me. Me personally? I expected a MUCH bigger download size, I guess this doesn't chap me too much, although we'll see where the game heads and the decisions of the developers. I'm confident that they'll find a way to make it right, as they've done what they can to stick right by the customers in the past.


I don't know how much I rate fixing it _in the future_ because that probably lets No Man's Sky of the hook for overpromising, underdelivering and then lying about it.



eggy in a bready said:


> bro, they were receiving death threats. they were working literal slave hours to get this thing out the door. the hype got out of control and was making people go insane. if i were CDPR, i'd want this game released asap before some crazy motherfucker doxxes me and slaughters my entire family
> 
> and besides, day one patches are the norm nowadays. hardly something worth criticizing



Oh yeah, definitely I don't blame them in that regard. And day 1 patches aren't a problem, but 40+GB is taking the piss on a 70+GB game. To put that in perspective, I might as well wait for the definitive version to be on a disc eventually just based on my internet speed alone. 

But 8 years. To be that off after 8 years is just unacceptable.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 8, 2020)

well, this is what happens when projects like this go on for that long. remember duke nukem forever?

their vision was so grandiose and development went on for so long that the game was destined to be broken upon release. tech seems to progress so rapidly these days, and i'm sure they had to revise the game many, many times in order to adapt. i mean, wasn't rdr2 a major reason why they pushed cyberpunk back? they saw how polished it was and got shook


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## TheBlackBard (Dec 8, 2020)

This might just be me... but there was nothing wrong with Duke Nukem: Forever as it comes to the expectations of a Duke Nukem game. It was Duke Nukem for a modern age, all the potty humor, toxic masculinity, and fetishizing women that had been in previous games. Was it groundbreaking? No. But I didn't expect anything groundbreaking. The OG's weren't groundbreaking either. They were what they were, and DN: F just feels like a continuation of that.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 8, 2020)

TheBlackBard said:


> This might just be me... but there was nothing wrong with Duke Nukem: Forever as it comes to the expectations of a Duke Nukem game. It was Duke Nukem for a modern age, all the potty humor, toxic masculinity, and fetishizing women that had been in previous games. Was it groundbreaking? No. But I didn't expect anything groundbreaking. The OG's weren't groundbreaking either. They were what they were, and DN: F just feels like a continuation of that.


sure, the game was fine. my point was that it being in development hell for years caused it to have some undeniable issues with how it looks and feels


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 8, 2020)

lurè said:


> Bought skyrim at day one, I don't fear the bugs.


Bethesda watching other devs release buggy game: "Amateurs!"


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## lurè (Dec 9, 2020)

Worth to mention that the witcher 3 was also a bit buggy when was released.


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## Ralyks (Dec 9, 2020)

lurè said:


> Worth to mention that the witcher 3 was also a bit buggy when was released.



This. Witcher 3 took like 3 months before it was stable.


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## TedEH (Dec 9, 2020)

I've definitely seen scenarios where a proper disk was printed knowing that the title was incomplete and the "true" deadline for the "first release" was the day 1 patch, as a way to sort of cheat the deadline.

I wish it wasn't the case, but I think as the scale of games get bigger, this problem of games being unstable as they come out is just going to get worse.


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## StevenC (Dec 9, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I've definitely seen scenarios where a proper disk was printed knowing that the title was incomplete and the "true" deadline for the "first release" was the day 1 patch, as a way to sort of cheat the deadline.
> 
> I wish it wasn't the case, but I think as the scale of games get bigger, this problem of games being unstable as they come out is just going to get worse.


Except Breath of the Wild didn't have a shopping list of bugs and took half as long to develop. The problem doesn't seem to be size but planning and management. Maybe BotW2 will come out a buggy mess and I'll eat my words, but there were buggy games before there were massive games. This is just a symptom of the games industry pushing further and further from quality in the name of profits.


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## TedEH (Dec 9, 2020)

Ok, so that's one example compared to how many others that DID come out a giant mess? I don't mean to say that all games will forever come out buggy - but there's a pretty clear pattern that seems to be getting worse. I don't think Nintendo is a great point of comparison since they're known for having stable releases (as far as I can tell) - they're a very different case compared to your average big budget multi-platform ambitious types of projects/companies. For most projects, the bigger the scope and ambition, the bigger the risk of day 1 being a janky mess. Also, maybe some risk of it remaining a janky mess. Drawn out dev times are probably a bad sign, as you've called out.

I say this as someone who has seen some of the management process behind some reasonably large projects -> the size of the project _does_ make a difference in at least some of these cases. I know people like to say "all these problems would go away if management didn't suck", but that's not a realistic assessment of how games get made. Nintendo has the advantage of being Nintendo: people will wait, and people will pay - but that's not the case for a lot of games. A lot of projects are a balancing act between what the devs/producers/publishers want, what they all think their audience wants, and what they can afford to do - and as I've mentioned in another thread somewhere: project/task estimation is basically a joke half the time, meaning that you inevitably end up forced to cut back and compromise somewhere - and the unfortunate reality is that sometimes you're trapped between janky mess or no release at all because the deadline exists for a reason.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 9, 2020)

Alright, I just finished up playing for 2 hours on PC and I can report not one bug! People had me a little worried but wow this game looks incredible and is buttery smooth. I do have a really nice PC, rtx2080 and i7 9700k, but this game is just absolutely beautiful and running so much better than Outer World on launch which I had mega stutter with. The game defaulted me to full ray tracing and everything maxed except one or two settings, I am doing 1440p with DLSS. I has read that the devs said a lot of the pop in and other bugs were from people running too high of settings for their systems, I can believe it.


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## Werecow (Dec 10, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> Alright, I just finished up playing for 2 hours on PC and I can report not one bug! People had me a little worried but wow this game looks incredible and is buttery smooth. I do have a really nice PC, rtx2080 and i7 9700k, but this game is just absolutely beautiful and running so much better than Outer World on launch which I had mega stutter with. The game defaulted me to full ray tracing and everything maxed except one or two settings, I am doing 1440p with DLSS. I has read that the devs said a lot of the pop in and other bugs were from people running too high of settings for their systems, I can believe it.



Did you keep the ray tracing stuff on?
I started the game up just to walk around the opening room, and found out DLSS = life saver. It's the first game i feel needs it to be absolutely smooth without kicking nearly all the detail settings down. I feel for anyone with a 10 series or any other card that can't use it. I do like my high framerates though, so if 30FPS is ok with someone, they'll be fine.

This is going to be a new graphical benchmarking game for quite a while i think.

Also, i spent ages in the character creator, and then instantly reeled away from it in the mirror on starting the game. I think it's going to be a challenge for me to get that right 

I'm still going to wait for a few bug fixing patches. Seen lots of videos of people floating in mid air.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 10, 2020)

@Werecow Yep, ray tracing stuff is on and so is dlss. I agree, shocking how smooth it is. When I walked into the first area I was startled because I normally have to slow down my mouse movements to get a game to look smooth like that.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Dec 10, 2020)

I’m probably going to wait to get a PS5 at some point after Christmas and play it on that. 

I loved the old pen and paper RPG and think it’s so fitting that this will launch in 2020. Though they should have started work in 2013. If you get that reference, I know you’re black box oldschool.


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## lurè (Dec 10, 2020)

ok so I've played a couple of hours on my Pc i7 8600 GTX1080 16GB Ram at 1440p and they aotmatically put everything on ultra settings without ray tracing and dsll. The game runs smooth and is visually astonishing.

The only issue I have are trees and their distance rendering: they appear totally black on longer distances and they overlap some other textures but everything fixes when you get closer.

Dunno if it's the game itself or some graphic setting I have; maybe some unnecessary texture filtering.


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## TedEH (Dec 10, 2020)

lurè said:


> GTX1080


I'm also using a 1080 and was curious how it ran on those. Good to hear that it seems to work well.


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## Ralyks (Dec 10, 2020)

About to pick my copy and will put in the my PS5 after work and hope it's done installing by the time my Income Tax class ends. Will report later on how it performs on PS5.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Dec 10, 2020)

I played for a few hours last night and it wasn’t too buggy. It was very fun and it’s a lot more human than I thought it would be.

I really like Jackie boy


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## Xaios (Dec 10, 2020)

I played for around 5 hours last night. Only bugs I ran into were:
- CTD about 10 minutes into the game. Thankfully I only lost about one minute of progress thanks to autosave.
- Texture clipping bug on the air ambulance during the first mission inside the city. Only lasted about 1-2 seconds.
- One NPC delivered about half their dialogue without moving her lips.

Other than that, smooth sailing. Running 1080P ultra settings on a Ryzen 3600X and Radeon 5700XT. I'll give them this, it is a great looking game.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 10, 2020)

From what I am seeing, most bugs are from loading. That’s why something is missing or frozen then pops in or out. I think this is almost certainly from settings being too high for the gpu to keep up with.


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## CerealKiller (Dec 10, 2020)

I'm only about an hour in, but didn't experience any bugs, except for GOG messing up some update a couple of times when I tried to launch it. And even if there happen to be bugs, I got through Vampire Bloodlines, so I can do this one as well. 
Can't really say yet if gameplay lives up to the hype, but it certainly looks great visually - runs fine on my 2070S. Should be a good game to get through over christmas


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## lurè (Dec 10, 2020)

Fixed the tree bug: nVidia came up with a new driver update just some hours ago.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 10, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I'm also using a 1080 and was curious how it ran on those. Good to hear that it seems to work well.


I'm in the same boat but rocking a 4770K For a CPU. Anyone know if this game eats processing power or GPU?


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## TedEH (Dec 10, 2020)

Even if you don't need it for this game - I recently went from a 4670k to a 10600k (using a 1080 in both cases) and the difference was pretty noticeable in a number of modern titles (BL3, newest Tomb Raider, anything VR, etc)


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 10, 2020)

walmart has the PC version for 50$ right now fyi


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## gunch (Dec 10, 2020)

the more cynical are saying this isn't that different from Outer Worlds


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## Ralyks (Dec 10, 2020)

I'm about in hour in on PS5 (or backwards compatibility, whatever). No real glitches of note so far. Love the aesthetic, just getting into actual combat now.


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## lurè (Dec 11, 2020)

Also If you want the voiceover in your language, you have to download a 4gb patch.

Go to your steam library -> cyberpunk-> properties -> languages and select yours; it will automatically start the download.


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## lurè (Dec 11, 2020)

gunch said:


> the more cynical are saying this isn't that different from Outer Worlds



To me has more of a bioshock/borderlands vibe.


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## Choop (Dec 11, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> I'm in the same boat but rocking a 4770K For a CPU. Anyone know if this game eats processing power or GPU?



In the same boat (just with a 1070ti card). My system still runs great generally but for new games it feels like the 4770k is a lil' long in the tooth. :C It'd definitely be a bottleneck on any future video card upgrades as well. Depending on your resolution you'll probably get decent fps at medium settings just looking at benchmarks.


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## Werecow (Dec 11, 2020)

I had to upgrade from a 4790K. When i say had to, i mean something broke either with the CPU itself or the motherboard, and i had no way to test. I ended up getting a 9900K and motherboard. The first thing i noticed with it was a very big difference in the smoothness of games. There was a complete lack of stutter in my games that always had it (like Fallout 4 and Kingdom Come: Deliverance), then as i played more of my games i realised some had a large FPS increase as well (like Dishonored 2).

From what i've seen so far, Cyberpunk can be severely bottlenecked by CPU or GPU. Open-world games are often like that though.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 12, 2020)

From what I'm reading the game is quite unfinished? Main complaints being the AI, empty feeling city and lack of RPG elements? That's really disappointing if true.


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## Werecow (Dec 12, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> From what I'm reading the game is quite unfinished? Main complaints being the AI, empty feeling city and lack of RPG elements? That's really disappointing if true.



Yeh, the more i read about it the more disappointing it sounds.
No driving AI for NPCs or police. Police magically spawn a few feet away when a crime is commited, while ignoring "wanted" npcs. Police will spawn out of nowhere if you kill the only person for miles in a desert, with no one around to report the crime. Barely any AI for NPCs on foot, they just continue their scripted routines or duck.

I was going to wait for a few rounds of simple bug fixing, but this sounds like a completely unfinished game, with whole systems missing. The metacritic user scores are terrible and the cyberpunk reddit is an absolute shitshow now, after previously being a fanboy arena.

I think this sums up most of the stuff i know i'd find maddening after all the features they advertised https://old.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkg..._ai_of_cyberpunk_2077_an_indepth_look_at_the/


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## TedEH (Dec 12, 2020)

I feel like I need to wait until the reviews and articles get over the genitals and bugs and start talking about what the actual gameplay is like. Granted, I've not read a lot of reviews because I'm not seeking them out, but the game is being talked about all over the place, and I still have yet to really form a picture in my head of what the game is supposed to be about or how it plays.

I'm excited to play this some day when the hype and price both go way down.


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## Werecow (Dec 12, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I feel like I need to wait until the reviews and articles get over the genitals and bugs and start talking about what the actual gameplay is like. Granted, I've not read a lot of reviews because I'm not seeking them out, but the game is being talked about all over the place, and I still have yet to really form a picture in my head of what the game is supposed to be about or how it plays.
> 
> I'm excited to play this some day when the hype and price both go way down.



Well the good news is that i've heard it described as "Deus Ex with cars". The bad news is that the devs promised so much on the open world side, but most of the systems and interactivity people expect from an open-world game seem to be missing. Some people are describing the driving and city in general as "a pretty loading screen for the next mission". At least i'll be able to get enjoyment from it if i look at it purely as a linear game. I just want another Deus Ex game anyway.

I'm still going to wait for developments like you. Almost sounds like the game needs a 2.0 version.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 12, 2020)

I’m about 10 hours in now and really digging it. The combat is crazy and the visuals are very good. I have only run into two bugs, one where a npc spawned in my car (like standing in the engine) when I was in a building so when I drove away he just got run over and spit out then another bug where I escaped a combat zone and the map still said I was in it just, just had to load save. 

The city is definitely not empty in my play through but there is a option in the menu for how many npc’s in the population so def has to do with graphics memory. IMO there is stuff on top of stuff, on top of stuff in the map because some areas are four or five levels tall or deep. 

My in game phone is slowly blowing up with contacts and calls as my street cred increases, so right now there are three main quests and around 15 side quests in my list.

Having played Outer Worlds, Deus Ex, Yakuza, and almost every other RPG like this of the last 15 years, I want to say right now it is really great. Outer Worlds was much more buggy and linear, the areas were very small and easy to clear everything in a planet because the real space was tiny. I played the main quest twice and still spent less than 60 hours int the game, second play through was only 12 hours by skipping talk. Same with Deus Ex, it was actually very small but made to seem big, Deus had almost zero side quests and took me 30 some hours to ravage. Now Yakuza could give Cyberpunk a run for its money right now because their city is just so vast and real, also the side quests and mini games of 
Yakuza can easily lead to 100 hour experience.

For right now, I want to most closely compare Cyberpunk to a future world Grand Theft Auto. It is really playing out like that the most. Lots of random quests, lots of driving, shooting, and melee fighting. I played through GTA 5 maybe four or five times and while GTA had such hilarious writing, Cyberpunk is coming across dark, emotive, dreary. 

I will spend more time in the game and post more as I go along. I think the interwebz has a real problem with hyping something up then absolutely shitting on it when it is not what they thought it would be in their mind. Mass Effect Andromeda was like that, killer game but people never got past the launch face and animation bugs. Their loss.


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## TedEH (Dec 12, 2020)

The comparisons to Deus Ex make me excited. The comparisons to GTA make me very much less excited.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 12, 2020)

Werecow said:


> I think this sums up most of the stuff i know i'd find maddening after all the features they advertised https://old.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkg..._ai_of_cyberpunk_2077_an_indepth_look_at_the/



I’m shocked. Did they cut out all that advertised content or did it never exist in the first place? What state was the game in back in April so if it wasn’t ready then. 

Some of my favourite games are unfinished/rushed but I’ll still sit this one out for a while and see how CDPR address these criticisms.


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## Werecow (Dec 12, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I’m shocked. Did they cut out all that advertised content or did it never exist in the first place? What state was the game in back in April so if it wasn’t ready then.
> 
> Some of my favourite games are unfinished/rushed but I’ll still sit this one out for a while and see how CDPR address these criticisms.



Quite a lot of it was shown as gameplay in their trailers and features etc, so yeh, either cut or straight up lied about and the videos were fake in some way. Even if it was cut, they didn't say anything about it and also covered up how badly the base consoles run. There was a recentish PS4 gameplay trailer that you can basically see now wasn't PS4 at all (both performance and image quality). The general anger with CDPR is rising.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm only a few hours in. But the game is pretty awesome when you are doing what the narrative/story wants you to do. Some strange bugs occur with the hacking (I get stuck in hacking mode and can't exit a few times) and walking glitches out becoming stuck on curbs or glitching across inclined planes. It's still pretty fun. Buuuuut. If you wanna just go GTA style and cause havok it's not pretty. The fucking Timelord Teleporting MEGA POLICIA make the game no fun to just roam and mess with things. People just kind of cower if you punch them, and everyone else around them will duck and cover and that's it. If you just stop and look at the NPCs for a few minutes they aren't really doing anything. The AI is extremely poor.


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## odibrom (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm not into this game... yet, however, I bumped into this article: https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/10/...polygon&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook...

Any one of you guys who is already running the game have these glitches? Just curious because I thought it really funny...


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## Ralyks (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm maybe 3ish hours in and I'm digging it. Not too much on the glitch side, although at one point I pulled out a pistol and wasn't holding it, but still shooting people. I am getting a sense that there may be TOO many gameplay mechanics going on, but maybe it won't seem so overwhelming as I play more.


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## lurè (Dec 13, 2020)

odibrom said:


> I'm not into this game... yet, however, I bumped into this article: https://www.polygon.com/2020/12/10/...polygon&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook...
> 
> Any one of you guys who is already running the game have these glitches? Just curious because I thought it really funny...



Nope, my V has vagina.

Anyway despite some random texture compenetration, I haven't encountered any gamebreaking bug.


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## Chokey Chicken (Dec 13, 2020)

I'm 20+ hours deep and relatively few bugs. Certainly nothing game breaking, but immersion has been broken once or twice. Be it random floating cigarettes, Jackie eating noodles with chop sticks while a second pair of chop sticks were in his food, and a single instance of a man just spawning next to the table then gumby sliding out the door while my character was having an intense conversation.

Performance is a little lackluster, but chalk that up to me for running a ryzen 7 2700x and rtx 2060. (though oddly, neither is taxed too hard when I'm hitting sub-60 fps. Think 20-30% utilization.) Might be an optimization thing, but my average fps is 55+fps so it's not the end of the world. Playable, albeit not ideal.

Thoroughly enjoying the game so far. About to spend my day off sinking more hours into it.

Also as far as inclusion, Judy is awesome. She is very much just a better looking, cooler version version of me. I'm not one to argue too heavily for inclusion in games, but a female Hispanic lesbian nerd hits pretty damn close to home. Bonus points that they didn't outright objectify her too.

It's worth stating that the amount of dialogue they'd have to record just to include various "non-standard" genders/identities would make the game impossibly big. The fact that there are trans characters that aren't just the butt of a joke is pretty cool progress, as is the ability to make a trans character.

Folks just need to be happy that companies are trying, and in my opinion are doing a decent job of being inclusive without it seeming like they're pandering. Which is all secondary, imo. The game play is good and that's the most important part.

Basically city isn't empty, definitely doesn't give me gta vibes beyond walking/driving, and the story feels engaging. Wait if you want, but it's a good game IMHO.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 13, 2020)

The best bug I had so far is that I died and the checkpoint save brought me back sitting in the drivers seat of a car, the problem is that car was being driven by a quest character so I was inside of them. I was able to see their eyeballs in front of me and their hair falling in front of my view. Once the car stopped we both got out without problems.


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## Xaios (Dec 14, 2020)

I'm still quite enjoying it, although I haven't had much time to play the past few days. No crazy bugs for me, just a couple CTDs.

Also, someone went ahead and started a new subreddit called "LowSodiumCyberpunk" as a haven for people looking for a less salty place for discussion. Not that some people's grievances aren't legitimate, particularly console players who've gotten an essentially broken product. However, a lot of the criticisms I've heard I just plain don't agree with, such as the one about the gameworld being empty. My gameworld is absolutely jam-packed with NPCs, they're actually kind of hard to avoid on main streets. And yes, while most of them are basically on rails and don't have anything to say... that's life in the big city for ya. Also, it's literally no different from both The Witcher 3 and GTA V where most of the NPCs have absolutely nothing but three or four canned lines of dialogue to say to you. I will concede that the general tone of CDPR's advertising oversold the NPC interactivity aspect, but if you go by the actual words of what they said (over a thousand scripted NPCs), that actually pans out. It's just that "over a thousand scripted NPCs" get lost in the shuffle pretty easily when the simulated population of your city is millions of random NPCs, something I think a lot of people have failed to consider.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 14, 2020)

this cracked me up


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 14, 2020)

This is a bit worrying.







But this is incredible. I don't know how long it would have taken to code this and at what cost but I look forward to seeing a music video or TV show someday with this level of realism when playing a guitar.

https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkg...m_npc_is_playing_actual_guitar_the_notes_are/


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I don't know how long it would have taken to code this


Realistically, it looks to me like a canned animation, and they then attached the guitar model to certain bones of the model so they could swap out the character or the guitar and get the same effect. It's great attention to detail, and makes the guitarist+gamer in me happy. There's probably not a lot of code magic going on here though.


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## Werecow (Dec 14, 2020)

Magic cops...
https://old.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkg...ed_to_test_how_bad_the_cop_spawning_issue_is/

I'm definitely not going to treat this game like it's open-world. I'll just get disappointed.


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 14, 2020)

It's not an open world at all. The TIME LORD PRECOGNITIVE POLICIA pretty much make this game untenable as an open world. If they designed the police to be like this on purpose than that means they are discouraging open world style play. They want us to play the game how they want it played. The lack of any AI in the regular citizens and the police basically prove that. There is nothing dynamic, it's all scripted events and short AI walking/driving paths on a loop. The police have been outside the neighbors apartment for days now trying to get that guy to come out, for example. It's a fun game as a story, though. But they should not have pretended that this is a vast open world awaiting exploration.


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## Werecow (Dec 14, 2020)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> It's not an open world at all. The TIME LORD PRECOGNITIVE POLICIA pretty much make this game untenable as an open world. If they designed the police to be like this on purpose than that means they are discouraging open world style play. They want us to play the game how they want it played. The lack of any AI in the regular citizens and the police basically prove that. There is nothing dynamic, it's all scripted events and short AI walking/driving paths on a loop. The police have been outside the neighbors apartment for days now trying to get that guy to come out, for example. It's a fun game as a story, though. But they should not have pretended that this is a vast open world awaiting exploration.



It appears they've had to design the police like that simply because there's no proper AI in the game. They can't have them turn up in vehicles because there's no unscripted driving AI for them to drive up and park.
The game seems to be lacking general open world AI that was even present all the way back in GTA 3


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 14, 2020)

Werecow said:


> It appears they've had to design the police like that simply because there's no proper AI in the game. They can't have them turn up in vehicles because there's no unscripted driving AI for them to drive up and park.
> The game seems to be lacking general open world AI that was even present all the way back in GTA 3



Yes. They spent all their resources on the visuals. The AI, or lack thereof, is something a competent team could whip up in a few months using readily available information and copping behavior from other games like GTA. The skill tree is also ineffectual. Sneaking is basically useless. The security cameras find me all the time even when I'm not actually in their direct sight. The hacking isn't worth the time and effort in most cases. Guns blazing is pretty much the only way to play at this time along with just sticking to the story. The story is fun, I'm having fun with it. But, goddamn, the world is pretty disappointing apart from visuals. The police alone ruin most of the fun of an open world game.

How can I shoot up a building killing everyone inside and have no police show up. But I punch one guy on the street who's wearing surgical masks over his nipples and suddenly 9 fucking Robocops with bulletproof baseball caps show up and kill me in 2 shots. It's pretty stupid.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> The AI, or lack thereof, is something a competent team could whip up in a few months


I'd be very hesitant to say that creating AI in any game, let alone "good" AI in a giant open world game, is as simple as that.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 14, 2020)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> Yes. They spent all their resources on the visuals. The AI, or lack thereof, is something a competent team could whip up in a few months using readily available information and copping behavior from other games like GTA. The skill tree is also ineffectual. Sneaking is basically useless. The security cameras find me all the time even when I'm not actually in their direct sight. The hacking isn't worth the time and effort in most cases. Guns blazing is pretty much the only way to play at this time along with just sticking to the story. The story is fun, I'm having fun with it. But, goddamn, the world is pretty disappointing apart from visuals. The police alone ruin most of the fun of an open world game.
> 
> How can I shoot up a building killing everyone inside and have no police show up. But I punch one guy on the street who's wearing surgical masks over his nipples and suddenly 9 fucking Robocops with bulletproof baseball caps show up and kill me in 2 shots. It's pretty stupid.




I have to disagree on the sneaking/hacking. My build has been all about being a ninja, I sneak around, disable or use hacks to mess people up, then move in for the sword kill. It has been great. Every now and then I get busted and have to go full on sword swinging madness to clear all the enemies. One of my favorite hacks so far is “disrupt optics” which makes an enemies eyeballs explode, it is great for distracting several enemies in a group.


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## Señor Voorhees (Dec 14, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I'd be very hesitant to say that creating AI in any game, let alone "good" AI in a giant open world game, is as simple as that.



The best way I can personally put it is that I LOVE Farcry 3-5 and *that* AI was far dumber and more easily exploitable than CP. A lot of my time has been spent alt+tabbed, but I'm 40 hours into the game between two characters and it's definitely not super ground breaking, but a good game in general. Hell, the only reason I have multiple characters is because I want to experience the romance arcs that I can't explore with a single gender. In my opinione, the character arcs are well defined, unlike something like Mass Effect where it's just like "who's tits do you want to see/fondle." 

The way the romance arcs are handled has me contemplating being a gay boi just to see how they handle *that,* because I legit care about the romance options as both an FxF pairing and an MxF pairing. It's hilarious because the only shortcoming actor-wise/characterwise in my opinion is Keanu, and I thought he'd be a strong point. 

Full disclosure, the game doesn't look WORLDS better than other games, and it's eating my computer parts to pieces. I haven't hit sub-30 fps, but on rare occasions I have dipped to 45fps. Looks like my cpu is the bottleneck, which is sad since it's above the recommended specs. Not unplayable, but also not consistent. I suspect this will change in the months ahead.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

All this talk about the game everywhere though is doing a lot in terms of making me want to go out and try it.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 14, 2020)

I think that the devs shouldn’t have released this game on so many platforms. The game seems to have the most problem on last gen hardware. This is next gen game (using their words) and so why not make it only on next gen hardware? Greed. I think they got caught up trying to be like Doom that can be played on a pregnancy test powered by a potato and really screwed themselves.


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## MFB (Dec 14, 2020)

I can guarantee that the heads of CDPR wouldn't say no to the entire fan base's money thats still running either a Series S/One X/PS4 Pro. Its just simply too much to leave on the table.

The game cost $120M to make, they need to make that back plus then profit from making it, so to immediately limit your fanbase to only those on PC and next gen (which are being sold by what, the dozen at a time?) until they can either optimize for the current gen (which would look weird releasing a version for "old" consoles) or not at all would eat just as much good will as the current release probably did.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> Greed


I agree that they shouldn't have tried to target so many platforms - but I think it's more likely that it made sense to someone high enough up to decide what gets paid for. I can understand why someone wouldn't want to put all of their eggs in an unreleased-console-shaped basket.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 15, 2020)

If this had been an initial PC release first then it might have been an earlier build of the game that had the promised content. The exact same thing happened to the witcher 3, You can videos of an early build with amazing graphics & cut screens with more in-depth combat and enemies. They had to scrap it cause it didn’t work on consoles and maybe that was the problem again. 

it’s a tough decision to make because in my age group I don’t know anyone with a new Xbox/PS4 but I know a lot of people who were going to get Cyberpunk for their last gen console. 



Señor Voorhees said:


> In my opinione, the character arcs are well defined, unlike something like Mass Effect where it's just like "who's tits do you want to see/fondle."





ahh bioware games. I haven’t heard a lot about the story but is the writing on par with the Witcher?


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## Cyanide_Anima (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm not saying that it would be easy to design and program a complete AI in a few months time. I'm saying that in a few months time, using a dedicated team, they'd have a framework for decent AI. Which would already be more than what they have now. Apart from the combat AI there is no other dynamic NPC behavior. It's all on rails and basic scripted routines.

I also still have not allocated any perks or points into anything yet as I want to get a feel for how the combat is. It's alright but not super polished. I've died randomly just walking around. Collisions with barriers and walking NPCs have killed me a couple of times. I've spent more time exploring some of the mechanics, NPC behavior, and the city itself than I have progressed through the game. I should just play the narrative how it's written because the exploration is pretty disappointing, but the game is great when you are on the rails the devs want you to ride.


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## lurè (Dec 15, 2020)

Dunno how many times I've been hit by a random car spawning from nowhere .


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## Najka (Dec 15, 2020)

Currently running it on a GTX 970 and it's playable at medium / low graphics, but have a 3070 on the way. 

A PS4 has graphics processor comparable to a RX 470, which is significantly less powerful than my GTX 970. I also have a 12 core Ryzen 3900x, 64GB of RAM, and runs direct from a NVMe drive with plenty of headroom (PC is mainly a creation machine). If my machine struggles at medium graphics I could see a PS4 having a real hard time at low graphics.

The new Xbox has a graphics processor similar to a 2080ti just for perspective.
This link shows a general idea of series X vs PS4 graphic processor...Kind of a massive difference to expect both to run this.
https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-2080-Ti-vs-AMD-RX-470/4027vs3640

I think the game is pretty awesome.. haven't been pulled into a game in years. It will honestly probably appeal more to people that enjoy role play/ immersion aspects. The only games that have really pulled me into them in the last 10 years were Skyrim and the Dragon Age games, now this one.


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## lurè (Dec 15, 2020)

Najka said:


> A PS4 has graphics processor comparable to a RX 470, which is significantly less powerful than my GTX 970. I also have a 12 core Ryzen 3900x, 64GB of RAM, and runs direct from a NVMe drive with plenty of headroom (PC is mainly a creation machine). If my machine struggles at medium graphics I could see a PS4 having a real hard time at low graphics.



ps4 has the equivalent gpu of a GTX 750 or AMD HD 7870: no chance it can run CP2077.

I don't know how are they going to "optimize" the game for the old gen but there's a ridicolous gap between ps4 and PC's minimal requirements.

Imho they did a big mistake in advertising the game as a ps4/xbox product when they probably knew by time that it would have performed poorly (to say the least) on those consoles.

Now they're crippling their own game just to make it work on consoles that can't handle it.


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## MFB (Dec 15, 2020)

Apparently CDPR has an emergency board call today, which a transcript of is available to read and is quite interesting to see the behind the scenes of something like this, and the question of "could this have been PC and next gen only came up"



> Q8: And could you have released –
> 
> MN: – without the old-gen consoles? In pure theory, if we had decided that one day before the launch then yes; we might have released just the PC version – but I’m not sure what else is included in that question, to be honest.
> 
> ...



https://www.cdprojekt.com/en/wp-content/uploads-en/2020/12/call-transcript_en.pdf


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## p0ke (Dec 16, 2020)

I really want to give this a go, but having read how bad it runs on previous-gen consoles (I have the original Xbox One), and my PC not being anywhere near powerful enough, I'll just wait this out for now. Hopefully the worst bugs will be squashed by the time I get a new console.


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## lurè (Dec 16, 2020)

MFB said:


> MN:So the answer here is “no”: next-gens get a completely different version of the game


Is different from the ps4 version for sure, but how much different from the PC version already released? I think they're identical.

The next gen update will probably include ray tracing support and the level of graphics already present on the PC version: basically the game in its full potential.

I'm more prone to think they've been seduced by the amount of preorders for the old gen and they fucked it up.


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## Thaeon (Dec 16, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> my initial impressions from all the previews tells me that this game is just going to be a gta-style sandbox game with a blade runner skin. and ironically, for a game called "cyberpunk," i'm not seeing a whole lot of actual cyberpunk elements



Blade Runner is a Cyberpunk genre movie. The book that inspired it is considered one of the biggest influences on the genre, and irs author is considered to be one of the originators of said genre next to William Gibson. Who is actually referenced in the game.

I’m about 50 hours in on XBox One X, and love the game. Nothing game breaking happening.


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## ImNotAhab (Dec 17, 2020)

Cyberpunk has been pulled from sale on the PlayStation Store.

Unprecedented as far as I am aware. We will be talking about this one for years to come. RIP the decade plus of good will they had cultivated.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 17, 2020)

Pulling the PS4 release, just can’t see why they tried to get this to play on a potato.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2020)

Everyone I know who bought the ps4 returned it.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 18, 2020)

Is that PlayStation making a public show of CDPR for not only allowing and pushing refunds but they tried to pass the blame to them? Any other company that thinks of doing that is going to know their game could get pulled from the store now. Not that a AAA developer should ever be posting about refunding a game to begin with. 

What a mess.


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## Ralyks (Dec 19, 2020)

I really like this game, and even I agree this is the hottest mess in the gaming world in quite some time.
Downloading the 1.05 patch now that came out today, I'll check it out later to see if there's any improvements.


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## ImNotAhab (Dec 20, 2020)

After playing for a decent amount time I have to wonder what have they been doing for 10 years? Yes, this is a hyperbolic statement from someone who does not know anything about game development but I am going to join the pile on and say the world looks great but it's feels so dead. There is no feeling of interactivity or impact on the environment. Gun goes off, NPCs cowers with the same animation amongst the dildo strewn floor, fin.

I really expected a more GTA-light type world. Like why would you not program the Trauma team to come to a small percentage of the gang guys you mess up? Why do cops give up after a block? Why is there no assassin's/miniboss/hits put out on you for killing mountains of gang members or for being a dick and running over every pedestrian on your way to a mission?

This feels like a game that needed another year, maybe two so again, what have they been doing for the better part of a decade with an astronomical budget?


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## Werecow (Dec 20, 2020)

ImNotAhab said:


> After playing for a decent amount time I have to wonder what have they been doing for 10 years? Yes, this is a hyperbolic statement from someone who does not know anything about game development but I am going to join the pile on and say the world looks great but it's feels so dead. There is no feeling of interactivity or impact on the environment. Gun goes off, NPCs cowers with the same animation amongst the dildo strewn floor, fin.
> 
> I really expected a more GTA-light type world. Like why would you not program the Trauma team to come to a small percentage of the gang guys you mess up? Why do cops give up after a block? Why is there no assassin's/miniboss/hits put out on you for killing mountains of gang members or for being a dick and running over every pedestrian on your way to a mission?
> 
> This feels like a game that needed another year, maybe two so again, what have they been doing for the better part of a decade with an astronomical budget?



The problem that seems to stop most of those things happening is an almost complete lack of open-world AI.
Drivers either drive on an invisible railroad or stop. That's the sheer scope of their AI. So that rules out NPCs getting mad/road rage, NPCs stealing cars, NPCS just driving around a small bloackage in a road, cops driving & chasing you in cars, any sort of weird or chaotic behaviour on the roads, basically any unscripted car chase.
Then any NPCs on foot as you say seem to have their own little micro area they can move around in and that's it. So criminals, gang members, cops won't even chase you around a corner of a block/building.
You can shoot a gun once and 30 NPCs in front of you will go into their one and only cowering position all at EXACTLY the same time. It feels so fake.

The Original GTA 3 did all of this better.

There are whole gameplay systems they promised and talked about in depth that are completely missing. For example... interactions between gangs, police and you, interactions between gangs and police depending on wanted level, corrupt cops, talking/bribing your way out of crimes.
What we got instead are police that teleport 20 foot from you, who are rooted within a 200 foot square area, and can't call in cars or anything to chase you. And also ignore wanted gang members across the street from them. It feels like a 20 year old game when it comes to some of the gameplay mechanics.

The bugs and performance aren't this game's main problem unfortunately. It's a shame that that's what's stopping this being talked about largely at the moment.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 20, 2020)

I’m about 20 some hours in and it certainly plays more like an action narrative than an rpg or open world. I actually got to the credits already and couldn’t believe how short that main quest was, I think it had to have been a “bad” or incomplete ending. Trying to build out the side quests and see what happens.


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## TedEH (Dec 20, 2020)

I've been playing Watch_Dogs 2 and it has a lot of those things. It maybe doesn't need those things, but it has them.

I guess it takes this long for them to... I dunno, manually trace all those rays or something.


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## Ralyks (Dec 21, 2020)

Gotta say, just had my first extended session since downloading the recent patch, and it is definitely improved. Still needs some work, but it's getting there.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 28, 2020)

Oh 2020, the year where an Assassins Creed game beat CDPR for best RPG.


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## Nicki (Dec 30, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> I’m about 20 some hours in and it certainly plays more like an action narrative than an rpg or open world. I actually got to the credits already and couldn’t believe how short that main quest was, I think it had to have been a “bad” or incomplete ending. Trying to build out the side quests and see what happens.


Yeah... your choices don't make a whole lot of difference. There's 4 endings and they all suck since they all don't affect V's fate. IMO, the story was just as rushed as the release of the game. After I finished this game, I went back to Witcher 3, which still has some bugs, but is a much better game overall for the kind of story-driven games I like to play.


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## sakeido (Jan 11, 2021)

Cyberpunk was my GOTY 2020 and is one of the best games I've ever played, full stop. Can't wait to see what it's like after some patches and DLC.

Lots of stuff didn't work properly, cops are a total non-factor for instance, but there was so much stuff that did work I didn't mind.

Probably the single greatest open world, of all time, period. Nothing else comes close. Night City as a setting is the best thing I've ever seen in a video game. I hardly even bothered driving, I would just walk around everywhere and constantly found new things, nooks and crannies, tons of little stories just kinda strewn throughout the game world. Some awesome quests that aren't marked on your map and aren't even "quests" in the traditional sense - there's this zen monk who walks you through meditation, a guy who sells you a sketchy VD that lets you go back and fuck up some guys you first saw in the intro, a side job for the chick you rescue in that mission, a memorial for one of your friends, one quest you find a guitarist Johnny likes then that kicks off a chain where you just go and find vinyls for his band. I found a music store that has nothing to do in it - it's just a music store. Guitars, keyboards, snare drums, records, books, that's all. Just this big "empty" store that's there for fun.

I liked that the main story was relatively short. It was carried by the characters for sure. Jackie, Judy, Panam, Silverhand, Takamura, all great characters. Lots of great voice acting, quite enjoyed V's performance. The main side missions are good and the gigs are fun little sandboxes you can approach in a few different ways. It's kinda a bummer that all the endings are downers, just to varying degrees, but it suits the cyberpunk setting. Those guys hardly ever got happy endings, either. 

Really liked how you are in 1st person the whole time. Animation was all really good. I played with raytracing on so its probably the most "next gen" feeling game I've played since.. I don't even know. Since Oblivion on PC, I guess.

Got too easy pretty early into it - flipped it to "Very Hard" which means you die crazy fast, but I never really got spotted by anybody using stealth or quickhacks, so difficulty barely matters. Lots of really overpowered builds using pretty much whatever tree you want. Hacking builds are definitely by far the most overpowered though, legendary ping pretty much eliminates the combat portion of the game.


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## Ralyks (Jan 11, 2021)

I've been playing more (and I sunk too much time into romancing Panam, because she just... Just the best...) And I'm really still enjoying it 23 hours in. It definitely still needs patches, but it's definitely a game up my alley and I'll likely beat it now and then do a playthrough as a female V when the PS5 version comes out. Plus still DLC and multiplayer.


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## lewis (Jan 17, 2021)

SpaceDock said:


> Oh 2020, the year where an Assassins Creed game beat CDPR for best RPG.



Not for me it didnt. I had a valhalla gamebreaking bug show up that broke all NPC's after getting settlement to level 3.
Ive been stuck since Nov20th not being able to play this shit after sinking £60 into it.
And the best bit?, yesterdays update that finally supposed to have fixed this NPC bug - didnt...


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## Ralyks (Jan 18, 2021)

I basically played Cyberpunk for 6 hours today for my holiday off from work, and I'm at about 34 hours. Guess I really really like this game.

Also, Panam is my virtual angel.


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## jojkett (Feb 9, 2021)

No matter the launch mess and me lacking a gaming pc, I'm happy I was able to play it on PS5 (albeit the PS4 version). It was also my GOTY 2020 and I've sunk 80 hours into now. Currently trying to finish all side gigs (I hate how the car purchasing counts as gigs...) and I'll probably sadly not be able to finish all the NCPD scanner gigs as a couple of them are stuck... Anyone know how to get around the latter? I cleared out two areas with the blue skull but it refuses to count as completed


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## SpaceDock (Feb 9, 2021)

Just saw these guys got hacked and the source code for this and W3 were stolen.


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## TedEH (Feb 9, 2021)

That's insane. The bit that really gets me is that people out there think that a video game they don't like is a good enough reason to try to ruin people. "It's just entertainment folks."


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## wankerness (Feb 9, 2021)

SpaceDock said:


> Oh 2020, the year where an Assassins Creed game beat CDPR for best RPG.



Barf. Maybe it's higher on the list of "pretty good RPGs" than Cyberpunk, but AC Valhalla is definitely not the best anything! It's not even the best open-world Ubisoft RPG this year!


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## SpaceDock (Feb 9, 2021)

PC Gamer is who gave them that, I was surprised as well.

edit, what Ubisoft game are you talking about?


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## Werecow (Feb 9, 2021)

TedEH said:


> That's insane. The bit that really gets me is that people out there think that a video game they don't like is a good enough reason to try to ruin people. "It's just entertainment folks."


What's even more insane is that they've gone from being a company where you'd get abuse or downvotes just for saying you weren't keen on a game of theirs, to being a target for "gamers" themselves.


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## wankerness (Feb 9, 2021)

SpaceDock said:


> PC Gamer is who gave them that, I was surprised as well.
> 
> edit, what Ubisoft game are you talking about?



Immortals: Fenyx Rising is a much tighter game than AC: Valhalla and has *much* more varied combat and exploration, and a much prettier and more stylized look. It has unfunny, annoying humor instead of annoying endless political machinations that you don't care about in the cutscenes, but that's about the only arena where I'd say AC: Valhalla has it beat.

I didn't know PC Gamer actually made that "official," I thought you were saying it was your opinion that AC Valhalla was the best RPG of the year! Well, they're idiots. Anyone that would rate AC Valhalla over Yakuza 7 as best RPG is no friend of mine. The FF7 remake seems to generally get much better reviews, too.


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## TedEH (Feb 9, 2021)

Werecow said:


> What's even more insane is that they've gone from being a company where you'd get abuse or downvotes just for saying you weren't keen on a game of theirs, to being a target for "gamers" themselves.


I can't tell if it's the point you were making, but that's not insane at all, it's practically predictable. 

My thoughts on that matter are (in no particular order):
- We don't really know what motivated this particular attack
- CDPR could be the shittiest company ever, it doesn't justify a cyber-attack
- I feel for anyone who has to crunch. I wish that wasn't a thing.
- I dunno much else about CDPR, I didn't think they were regarded as a "bad company", but public perception can flip-flop in an instant.


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## Werecow (Feb 9, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I can't tell if it's the point you were making, but that's not insane at all, it's practically predictable.
> 
> My thoughts on that matter are (in no particular order):
> - We don't really know what motivated this particular attack
> ...



I just meant in the past i've been on the receiving end of abuse just for saying i wasn't 100% keen on Witcher 3. Now i often see people getting massively downvoted on reddit if they say they _like_ Cyberpunk. I only play single player games, and stay relatively distant from most gaming culture (even though i game a lot). I just can't believe how fast the swing of general sentiment towards the company has been, and by how much. I've stopped replying to posts about CDPR games in most areas of the internet now because the reactions are so extreme it's not worth the hassle.
The shit thing is that i bet it's the same people doing the hating who didn't care at all about the crunch issues. They just wanted their game at any cost, and are now kicking up a storm about it. I guess i've been out of touch with how extreme gamers can be until recently.


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## TedEH (Feb 9, 2021)

Werecow said:


> getting massively downvoted on reddit


Is that such a big deal?  I'm kidding, but also not kidding. In comparison to death threats and whatever other drama that the general internet is capable of and very willing to do a lot of the times, some reddit downvotes seems pretty unimportant. I'm nitpicking though - I get what you mean.

There was a video I came across a while ago that talked about how what looks like large groups of people isn't actually a unified voice a lot of times, and I think it would be applicable here. There is no singular "opinion of the gamers". There are bajillions of people with bajillions of opinions. It might be less a giant swing in opinion and more that you're suddenly hearing from a different vocal sub-section.


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 9, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Is that such a big deal?  I'm kidding, but also not kidding. In comparison to death threats and whatever other drama that the general internet is capable of and very willing to do a lot of the times, some reddit downvotes seems pretty unimportant. I'm nitpicking though - I get what you mean.
> 
> There was a video I came across a while ago that talked about how what looks like large groups of people isn't actually a unified voice a lot of times, and I think it would be applicable here. There is no singular "opinion of the gamers". There are bajillions of people with bajillions of opinions. It might be less a giant swing in opinion and more that you're suddenly hearing from a different vocal sub-section.



It's just a way to gauge public interest in something, but considering anything past the status quo regardless of topic will get you downvotes, the system is wholly useless.

The only proper use for it, is I can always look at threads and sort by controversial and see some real intense back and forths 

Speaking of unpopular opinions, I think the creators and journalists who got an early look at this game and shilled hard for it should see some form of punishment or negative PR. It's arguably even more scummy to promote something unfinished to your audience, especially the bigger journalists.

The crowbcat video showcases a few of these people, and IMO people can hide behind the defense of "They didn't know! They just played a heavily curated demo". I'm not sure I care, you should be careful what you endorse to an audience, especially if financial incentives were had for the ad space.


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## TedEH (Feb 9, 2021)

Jonathan20022 said:


> It's arguably even more scummy to promote something unfinished to your audience, especially the bigger journalists


As opposed to what? If you don't report on what you have, then what is there to report at all? I mean these games aren't being finished and polished up, THEN sent to press, held onto for a while, and just released when they feel like it. It's not like the press has 6-7 "finished" games to report on and chose to promote the "unfinished" one. They're ALL unfinished. They're ALL buggy at that review stage. The video you posted makes a big deal that the game was being talked about 5 months before it was released - it's not uncommon for games to be unplayable messes at that stage. The stability of a game changes _drastically_ in that amount of time. Honestly, most of the press I saw on the run up to release was around how people were uncomfortable with not being able to show the real state of what they saw. But people are going to nitpick everything they can find to "prove" that everyone "lied" so that they have an outlet for their disappointment.

Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with people being disappointed in the game. It's not that big a deal though. It's a single video game that isn't any more expensive than other video games that follows the trend of big budget games being buggy on release and that still has at least some amount of entertainment value for most people and did manage to achieve some interesting technical challenges and will probably be eventually patched up enough to meet the majority of it's initial promises. It's nothing new or unique. I don't call it a win per-se, but not a total loss either.

On some level, the more people shit on the game and on CDPR the more I want to try the game out to really see what people are talking about. Even on steam right now, the reviews are "mostly positive" despite how aggressive the negative side of the conversation tends to be.


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 9, 2021)

TedEH said:


> As opposed to what? If you don't report on what you have, then what is there to report at all? I mean these games aren't being finished and polished up, THEN sent to press, held onto for a while, and just released when they feel like it. It's not like the press has 6-7 "finished" games to report on and chose to promote the "unfinished" one. They're ALL unfinished. They're ALL buggy at that review stage. The video you posted makes a big deal that the game was being talked about 5 months before it was released - it's not uncommon for games to be unplayable messes at that stage. The stability of a game changes _drastically_ in that amount of time. Honestly, most of the press I saw on the run up to release was around how people were uncomfortable with not being able to show the real state of what they saw. But people are going to nitpick everything they can find to "prove" that everyone "lied" so that they have an outlet for their disappointment.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with people being disappointed in the game. It's not that big a deal though. It's a single video game that isn't any more expensive than other video games that follows the trend of big budget games being buggy on release and that still has at least some amount of entertainment value for most people and did manage to achieve some interesting technical challenges and will probably be eventually patched up enough to meet the majority of it's initial promises. It's nothing new or unique. I don't call it a win per-se, but not a total loss either.
> 
> On some level, the more people shit on the game and on CDPR the more I want to try the game out to really see what people are talking about. Even on steam right now, the reviews are "mostly positive" despite how aggressive the negative side of the conversation tends to be.



I don't really even know why you're going so hard on that aspect of my point, it doesn't need to be finished to be given an assessment.

You're writing off the likelihood that SEVERAL people (Prominent reporters, streamers, influencers) were given a 4 hour play session of the game several months prior to release. And that those same people didn't experience an inkling of what was poorly released on launch day.

I'm sorry but fuck Early Access, the second we crossed that bridge was the day we gave developers complete onus to charge consumers for products with the hope that somewhere down the line it'll be a fully fleshed out experience. When these Early Access developers regularly take several years before they even jump out of beta and prep a 1.0 Launch Release.

I think it's incredibly ignorant to paint this as the "norm", and that games release in a state where you run into glitches and problems in some regular fashion (Not uncommon, in your words). Your game doesn't need to be finished if you have a solid engine to work off of, and this game has far less than that.

Tossing it all aside, yeah I can agree that it is a buggy "okay" open world shooter, with an interesting world. You can strip any game of it's misgivings and look at the stripped corpse for what it is, but that's an incredibly low bar to set for anything you enjoy. And as much as I disagree with this, for some this game was such a part of their lives that many people touted taking PTO just to stay home and immerse themselves in their long awaited game. CDPR spent so much money on marketing and hyping this game up, that IMO they forfeit that right of just being considered "just another game". The Polish government invested in the development of the game for fucks sake, the ramifications of releasing an unpolished, unfinished, over-promised product like they did has more consequences than the indie developer who broke deadline on their IndieGoGo campaign.

Despite all of this, I had zero expectations for this game. Saw very little reason for the hype around yet another open world game for me to dump another couple hundred hours of my life into. Morrowind/Oblivion/Witcher already did that for me. I played it, and laughed my ass off at how poorly the game performed on my friend's console, but I also see a legitimate reason behind the outrage. I absolutely don't endorse any level of company breach like what happened today, but consumers voicing their grievances are entirely legitimate.


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## TedEH (Feb 9, 2021)

Before I hit send - a note about why this is such a long post:
Realistically, I don't really "care about" this game in particular, and I'm all for people having their takes. I think this game and others like it speak to bigger trends, however - and it's something I think about reasonably often because it impacts me directly. I'm typing a whole lot out because that's just where my head goes on the topic and I don't mean to rant at people - I'm not trying to nitpick you so much as just running with the subject. I don't want to disagree with you because I think your take is mostly reasonable, but there are parts of the conversation (not specifically pointing at you) that sort of _get to me_ (and not necessarily in a "I disagree!" kind of way) but the mind just gets racing.



Jonathan20022 said:


> You're writing off the likelihood that SEVERAL people (Prominent reporters, streamers, influencers) were given a 4 hour play session of the game several months prior to release. And that those same people didn't experience an inkling of what was poorly released on launch day.


That's not really what I meant. I'm very sure they saw lots of signs that things weren't what they should be. I even said I thought it was pretty clear that something was up from the press leading up to release. A whole lot of youtube coverage sent up some red flags during the week leading up. Lots of comments about "yeah, I can't actually show you any footage", and a lot of internet discussion about this being a red flag in particular. At the same time I think they know there's a huge difference between the build 6 months before release and the build that goes out to people - because there IS a huge difference between those two builds. It may not have always been the case, but it's my experience that 6 months before release, you're not seeing something fairly representative of the stability or whatever other quality you might measure of the final product. I'm no journalist, and I don't deal with that kind of stuff for the most part, but I imagine they must take into account that pretty much everything that passes through their hands in that context is "incomplete" by some standard. My hope/want would be that they disclose that part as much as is possible, and I think we agree on that basic idea.



Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm sorry but fuck Early Access, the second we crossed that bridge was the day we gave developers complete onus to charge consumers for products with the hope that somewhere down the line it'll be a fully fleshed out experience.


I agree with you on that part. I really don't like what early access has opened the door to. I think that's a big part of:



Jonathan20022 said:


> I think it's incredibly ignorant to paint this as the "norm"


I disagree entirely. I think it's becoming the norm. No mans sky? Fallout 76? The last Mass Effect? The last Assasins Creed? WWE 2k20? Watch Dogs Legion? At this point, what AAA game has either come out recently, or is coming soon, that is 100% complete without some kind of severe problem or missing feature on day 1? High expectations, lots of hype, lots of ambition, crunch as soon as you realize you misjudged scope or overpromised, ambiguity in release cycles, delivered products not meeting expectations with a promise to "get there eventually", and it's a bit of a stretch but I think the new approach of "games as a service" is in part a response to this pattern (it's in some ways just an evolution of how "early access" works). I say this as someone whose last three jobs fit into that "games as a service" category. I see it happening. I'm contributing to it happening as we speak.



Jonathan20022 said:


> for some this game was such a part of their lives that many people touted taking PTO just to stay home and immerse themselves in their long awaited game.


I don't doubt it, and I think that's a problem that goes beyond the scope of this conversation. And yeah, my choice of calling it a problem is deliberate.



Jonathan20022 said:


> CDPR spent so much money on marketing and hyping this game up, that IMO they forfeit that right of just being considered "just another game"


I can't disagree more with this part. A game is just a game. A huge amount of money goes into marketing pretty much every game. There's a lot of government money/grants/tax things that go in pretty much every game. There's nothing unique about this one. It's $70 or whatever the cost locally is for some 40hrs of entertainment sitting in front of a screen that you might just forget about shortly after. It's entertainment. And don't get me wrong, I love video games - I've got a ridiculous number of them, I spend huge amounts of time playing or thinking about them, spend too much money on them, on PC hardware, etc etc - but it's entertainment. It's literally where I make my living and I'll be the first to admit that it's the least important thing ever. It carries no more weight than a movie or a book or a song. If someone personally invests more than that into an entertainment product blindly with no other information than some trailers and awkward reviews - I can't put the blame on the devs for that. I can absolutely blame the devs for the objective/subjective qualities of the product itself - for not liking the game, for it being an unstable buggy product, for it missing features, for it not coming out at the right time - but not the personal weight someone grants their entertainment products. But unless you're talking mobile-skinner-box gambling-style manipulation or something, it's not outrage worthy. Get a refund, air your grievances in a constructive way, and move on. There are literally thousands of great games out there for less money.



Jonathan20022 said:


> I absolutely don't endorse any level of company breach like what happened today, but consumers voicing their grievances are entirely legitimate.


To me, at the end of the day this is the important part, and I agree with you. My only nitpick would be to remove the "but" and replace it with "and". Those two things aren't contradictory or in any kind of opposition with eachother. Voicing grievances doesn't need to be a literal attack on a company and the lives of the individuals involved. There are constructive ways for consumers/internet to let the industry know when they're unhappy with something but I don't think we've figured out how to do that yet. IMO "outrage" is not constructive. Any medium is an interaction/conversation between the producer and the consumer and in cases like this, right now, to my eyes, that dialogue is very antagonistic, sometimes on both sides. I wish that wasn't the case.


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## TheBlackBard (Feb 10, 2021)

So I'm just going to say this about the game:

Could this game use some work? Absolutely. Are there missing features that were promised that were not there? Absolutely. Are there bugs galore? Absofuckinglutely.

But I'm also having a lot of fun with this game. There are things that could be improved sure, but I'm enjoying the mood, I'm enjoying the atmosphere, and having lots of fun doing the side missions and the combat. It's a game that's not without its problems, but I trust CDPR to fix those, so... maybe I'm stupid, maybe I'm a fool, but I'm a stupid fool that's having a great time. Sorry, not sorry.


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## TedEH (Feb 10, 2021)

Sweet jebus, I need to start a blog or keep a journal or something instead of making unnecessarily long forum posts.


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## Werecow (Feb 10, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> So I'm just going to say this about the game:
> 
> Could this game use some work? Absolutely. Are there missing features that were promised that were not there? Absolutely. Are there bugs galore? Absofuckinglutely.
> 
> But I'm also having a lot of fun with this game. There are things that could be improved sure, but I'm enjoying the mood, I'm enjoying the atmosphere, and having lots of fun doing the side missions and the combat. It's a game that's not without its problems, but I trust CDPR to fix those, so... maybe I'm stupid, maybe I'm a fool, but I'm a stupid fool that's having a great time. Sorry, not sorry.



It was my most anticipated game last year but i've still held off from starting it up. I've been waiting to see if CDPR talk about adding those features in, but they just talk about the bugs as if that's all that's stopped it being the game everyone wanted.
The stuff i was really looking forward to seems to be most of the things that're missing. I want all the RPG features they talked about for years, and some actual proper AI would be good, both for NPCs, cops, combat, and driving. The roadmap they published was so vague it almost seemed like a hoax image at first. So i can't decide if i should give it a go yet. I'm really patient with stuff like this, and prepared to wait for the best experience.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 10, 2021)

It’s 100% the people who were screaming about delays being the end of the world and demanding their “life changing” game yesterday that are the ones angriest about the product at launch. 

I haven’t followed since the game came out as it waiting to pick up a PS5 and for the fully patched GOTY edition. 

But the ones most angry are the ones who were most invested in the game. And there is a reason Nintendo still tries to stick to their mantra of releasing stable good games. 

I do they they may have overpromised a bit that it would run on last-Gen tech from what I was reading at launch, and they could have handled the messaging better if that was the case. 

I’m looking forward to playing it eventually because I just like the effort they out into the writing/lore of their games.


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## TedEH (Feb 11, 2021)

And now some of the stolen material is being released and sold. https://www.theverge.com/2021/2/10/...hackers-auction-source-code-ransomware-attack

This makes me sad.


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## Werecow (Feb 11, 2021)

It's been sold now apparently. Who could come up with millions to buy something like that? It'd have to be an actual company surely. Maybe to try to steal technology from their game engine?


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## TedEH (Feb 11, 2021)

I don't know how much value there would really be in the engine itself. I can't image there's much in terms of "industry secrets" in there. I'm sure there's interesting things to study in there, but for that price? There are already very powerful engines available for much cheaper. I mean.... what does this engine do that others don't? RTX isn't a secret. The value is mostly in the IP and the assets, which.... I mean, you can't _use_ any of it without getting in a huge amount of trouble.

Maybe CDPR actually bought it back and doesn't want to admit it?


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## SpaceDock (Feb 11, 2021)

I agree, I see no value for a legit company to buy this up. Even more so because so many were disappointed with the product.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 11, 2021)

Yeah but a company from a country that doesn’t respect IP laws and even has government sponsored IP theft sure wouldn’t mind a fully pre-built game engine + assets + whatever else is in there would they?


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## TedEH (Feb 11, 2021)

Sure, but at a cost of millions of dollars, there are much easier and cheaper ways to make quick money by being sketchy in the gaming space. I'm having trouble picturing who fits all the criteria of:

- Benefits from having the code + assets
- Has millions of dollars to spend on it
- Has no issue with the legal / ethical / etc. implications of it

My best guess is that someone out there has more money than smarts and has big visions of "sticking it to the man", otherwise I'm at a loss for how this makes any sense.


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