# Utterly baffled by scales...Help!



## Whiskey_Funeral (Mar 21, 2010)

So, I kind of feel like this should be posted in the newbie section, even though I've been playing guitar for about 9 years. To start, I'm not exactly Paul Gilbert on guitar, but I think I'm an okay player. I can solo in the appropriate key when needed and have written tons of music, specifically metal. But, when I play, I honestly have no idea what I'm playing. I just kind of listen and play by ear. I know some basic scale shapes and how to construct chords, but I'm really wanting to know exactly what I'm doing instead of just winging it. So, I've purchased a copy of the Guitar Grimoire in hopes that it might help me become a little more musically educated. Unfortunately, it's just making me frustrated. I see scales, different positions of scales, and in different keys, but don't know how I could apply them to any particular song or riff I'm playing over. 

For example, I've been trying to learn the harmonic minor scale. However I see that there is an A Harmonic minor, B, E, C# etc. Do I need to learn every one of these and every different position depending on what key the song I'm playing to is in? That seems rather daunting. I also see that each scale has a number of positions, which makes things even more confusing. 

Could anybody simplify all of this for me? I have a feeling that I'm just over-complicating things. Is there some sort of shortcut I'm not seeing or different way of looking at it that might help me? I feel like I'm at even more of a disadvantage because I've been playing for so long while disregarding the "rules" of music. I know this question has been asked time and time again and I've searched the forums hoping that something would just "click" to no avail. How did you guys first start to apply theory?


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## Janiator (Mar 21, 2010)

As far as I know you need to learn all scales in all 12 keys. It may sound like a lot, but when you get started you get over it quickly. They are all the same patterns just in diffrent places.


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## tr0n (Mar 21, 2010)

First and foremost, read up about the CAGED system, that can apply to almost any scale.

Simply put, the CAGED system outlines 5 different scale 'shapes' which are essentially 5 different arrangements of notes based upon the 5 basic open position chord shapes. Play a C major chord using the C shape, then a C major chord using the A shape, then G shape, E shape and finally D shape. You'll find that you've covered the fretboard up to fret 12 and the next shape is C again. The practicality of these chord shapes is irrelevant, it's the principal that matters. The are 5 different chord shapes, and for each of these there are an arrangement of notes you can stick on top.

For example, a C major chord using the A shape is:

E A D G B e
x - - - - -
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
| o | | | o
| | | | | |
| | o o o |
| | | | | |

Now build around this the C major scale.

E A D G B e
- - - - - -
| | | | | |
| 7 3 6 | |
5 R 4 | 2 5
| | | 7 | |
6 2 5 R 3 6
| | | | 4 |
| | | | | |

So this could be called the A shape C major scale, or other people refer to it as the 4th position C major scale, with position 1 being the E shape, then D, C, A and G.

If you take note of the root, then you can shift the entire shape up and down the neck to play different major scales. The arrangement of notes stays exactly the same. So if you learn 5 major scale shapes based on this CAGED system, take note of the roots, you can shift each shape around for different major scales. And these 5 shapes cover the entire fretboard, so essentially, you'll only ever need to remember 5 shapes for every major scale, regardless of key. It's just their actual position on the fretboard that changes.

I have a real problem with scale books that catalogue 12 shapes for 14 scales in 12 keys to give a total of 2016 "scales" or whatever it might be. This is utter bullshit. The reality is, there are only a handful of scales that most guitarist use regularly (debateable), the shapes of which are based on the same system, and to get the different keys you just need to shift the shape to the necessary position on the fretboard.

Let's take the CAGED system further. Take the A shape C major scale I wrote above. Now let's turn it into the natural minor scale. The differences from the major scale are a flattened 3rd, 6th and 7th. So take the shape above, and move each 3rd, 6th and 7th down a fret.

E A D G B e
- - - - - -
| | | | | |
| | | | | |
5 R 4 7 2 5
6 | | | 3 6
| 2 5 R | |
7 3 6 | 4 7
| | | | | |

Unfortunately I can't double space in Courier New font, meaning I can't include flat signs. So remember that 3, 6 and 7 mean b3, b6 and b7.

In this case (and in most cases), it's more practical to move notes onto different strings, so everything is neatly boxed and your hand won't have to stray from this postion on the fretboard. This is called the 4th position natural minor scale. Whilst we're here, remove the 2 and 6 and you'll have the 4th position minor pentatonic scale. The pentatonic scales we know and love are all built on this principle.

You mentioned the harmonic minor scale in your original post, so lets turn this natural minor scale into that by raising the 7th.

E A D G B e
- - - - - -
| | | | | |
| 7 | | | |
5 R 4 | 2 5
6 | | 7 3 6
| 2 5 R | |
| 3 6 | 4 |
| | | | | 7
| | | | | |

Again here I've moved the 7th onto the A string to make it more practical (in my opinion). It's still playable on the 6th string also if you wish.

So in summary, the CAGED system uses 5 _positions_ to cover the entire fretboard. There is a particular configuration of notes in these positions to give you almost every scale possible (even symmetrical scales), and chords can be further extracted from these scale shapes. The main point is to remember where the root is in each position, this will never change, because scales are built from a root upwards of course.  Books that catalogue '1200 scales' are ridiculous.

5 positions, altered accordingly for various keys. Just change relevant notes from one scale to another.

I hope all this makes sense. There is another system called the 3 note-per-string system, which is self explanatory. This system derives a scale shape from each individual note of the scale, therefore giving a total of 7 positions. It's not very easy to see chords inside these (they're impractical for them anyway), so they favour pure soloing, which they're great for because they help legato playing for instance. Combining this system with the CAGED system really helps.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 21, 2010)

For the record, I like the Guitar Grimoire for providing such a wide selection of scales, but think it's crap for learning any sort of application or theory. I also don't agree with Kadmon's approach to teaching scales; it just falls a bit short.



Scales are just patterns, and you would be better off to learn how to construct scales and chords by intervals. I've made these charts in which you can plug in note names, intervals, or scale degrees to get a hang of the way we describe scales:







Basically, it works like this: put your root note in, put in whatever information you have, figure out the rest, slap a name on it, and you're done. I've done a few right here:






You can change the letter note name of the root, and all the other information will be correct, still. Notice here that the tonic of the scale is different, and the note names are different, but everything else is the same:






You can use this to help you identify the intervals and scale degrees:






As for applying it to the fretboard, just find the root/tonic note of your scale and match your interval patterns up to these diagrams. Don't forget that the guitar is a transposing instrument; moving up or down the neck reveals the same patterns in a different key. These are all within one octave, but I can easily make charts that describe this stuff in one position, on one string, or all over the fretboard, if it pleases you:







&#8710; means major, by the way. So '&#8710;7' and 'M7' are one in the same.



This is just for building scales and figuring them out on the fretboard. Scales, chords, progressions and key have a close relation, but I won't get into that in this post just yet. If there's anything else you'd like to see, just tell me.


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## OwainXerath (Mar 21, 2010)

Janiator said:


> As far as I know you need to learn all scales in all 12 keys. It may sound like a lot, but when you get started you get over it quickly. They are all the same patterns just in diffrent places.


I would go as far as to disagree with this. When you learn a scale, let's take the good old minor pentatonic, once you think you've got it down try playing it with your eyes shut. This way you develop the ability to "see" the scale in your minds eye. Now, feeling comfortable about that? Move it all up a fret. It's completely different frets, but EXACTLY the same shape in your minds eye. 

Congratulations, you've just learned a scale in ALL keys 

Next, all the other positions of that scale


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## MrMcSick (Mar 22, 2010)

Wow there is some good info here but like the OP i find it so confusing trying to get into theory years after starting to play! Im still lost.


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## Lasik124 (Mar 22, 2010)

OwainXerath said:


> I would go as far as to disagree with this. When you learn a scale, let's take the good old minor pentatonic, once you think you've got it down try playing it with your eyes shut. This way you develop the ability to "see" the scale in your minds eye. Now, feeling comfortable about that? Move it all up a fret. It's completely different frets, but EXACTLY the same shape in your minds eye.
> 
> Congratulations, you've just learned a scale in ALL keys
> 
> Next, all the other positions of that scale



This.

No you don't have to learn all the Keys.

Once you learn one Key you know them all, Just start from a different note.

For example in your book. Position One will be the key your in. Position Two Will always be the same after One. And so on.


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## OwainXerath (Mar 22, 2010)

Indeed, the next step (which should really be incorporated into step one) is learning where the root note is in these shapes. And then, learning where all the primary chord tones are in each shape, then secondary (or if you like a challenge) all the intervals. Personally, I learn the scale formula first and find my own scale shapes from that. Helps bed in the intervals!


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## Whiskey_Funeral (Mar 23, 2010)

Wow, there has been so much useful information posted here! The CAGED system looks very interesting and useful. I'm going to have to spend some time on that. It seems to go hand in hand with the graphs that were posted. 

In regards to the later posts, I can learn one pattern and move it anywhere and the positions before and after that particular note will always be the same? I was assuming that if I knew one pattern and moved it to a different fret, it would be "wrong". And what is a position? Just a continuation of notes in a specific pattern relating to the first note played? Essentially, the same thing but with the patterns on each string mixed up because the notes change as the frets go up or down? I don't even know if I made that question made sense.

And what's the difference between modes and scales?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 24, 2010)

Whiskey_Funeral said:


> Wow, there has been so much useful information posted here! The CAGED system looks very interesting and useful. I'm going to have to spend some time on that. It seems to go hand in hand with the graphs that were posted.
> 
> In regards to the later posts, I can learn one pattern and move it anywhere and the positions before and after that particular note will always be the same? I was assuming that if I knew one pattern and moved it to a different fret, it would be "wrong".



Yep. This is why we have "the major scale" and not "the major scales" (although any scale that has a major third in it is technically a 'major' scale, but they are not necessarily *the* major scale). You can make the same scale off of any note you call the tonic. If you don't know, the note that the scale is named after is called the "tonic". So, in B major, the tonic is B. In D# phrygian, the tonic is D#. In F phrygian, F is the tonic. This allows for transposition and key changes. The principle behind transposition is that all the intervals are kept the same, but are moved to a new tonic. I made an example using minor scales. Remember, the intervallic structure of a minor scale is 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. Take a look here:






They all sound like minor scales, right? That would be because they are. When you hear "minor", you should think
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7, and then plug in the note names afterwards. So, G minor:

1 = G
2 = A
b3 = Bb
4 = C
5 = D
b6 = Eb
b7 = F

G# minor:

1 = G#
2 = A#
b3 = B
4 = C#
5 = D#
b6 = E
b7 = F#

And so on.



> And what is a position? Just a continuation of notes in a specific pattern relating to the first note played? Essentially, the same thing but with the patterns on each string mixed up because the notes change as the frets go up or down? I don't even know if I made that question made sense.



Position = fret. Fifth position is at the fifth fret, eight position is at the eight fret. However, open strings are grouped in with the first position; it has to do with where your index fingers frets.



> And what's the difference between modes and scales?



'Mode' and 'scale' can mean the exact same thing, but the alternative meaning is the scale based off of another degree of a "parent" scale. For example, a major scale has seven notes. If we build a scale off of each of those notes, using the same notes from the parent scale, we get its modes. Let's use A major:

First mode - A major/ionian - A B C# D E F# G#
Second mode - B dorian - B C# D E F# G# A
Third mode - C# phrygian - C# D E F# G# A B
Fourth mode - D lydian - D E F# G# A B C#
Fifth mode - E mixolydian - E F# G# A B C# D
Sixth mode - F# aeolian - F# G# A B C# D E
Seventh mode - G# locrian - G# A B C# D E F#

Notice, they all contain the same notes as A major, and, in fact, each other. A scale can only have as many modes as it has notes, so a pentatonic scale will have five modes. Let's use D major pentatonic.


First mode - D major pentatonic - D E F# A B
Second mode - E F# A B D
Third mode - F# A B D E
Fourth mode - A B D E F#
Fifth mode - B minor pentatonic - B D E F# A

Those middle three I have not given names to, as I don't know of any widespread consensus of what those modes would be called. When you can't find a fancy name for it, like "phrygian" or whatever, it's fine to call it something like "mode 4 of D major pentatonic".




There is also a special case wherein a scale has very few modes, despite having many notes. These are always symmetrical scales. The more well-known ones are the so-called octatonic scale, and the whole tone scale.

Octatonic scales (also called diminished, and sometimes dominant scales) come in two flavors: half-whole, and whole half. Half-whole is simply a half step alternating with a whole step, until you reach a complete octave. It's an eight note scale. You might have guessed that whole-half is the opposite: a whole step alternating with a half step. These are the formulae:

Whole-half: 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
Half-whole: 1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7

It is said that these scales each have two modes, and that everything after is a transposition of those modes. It's really easy to see why if you put it down on one string:











The other symmetrical scale that we'll discuss is the whole tone scale, which only has one mode: itself. It's simply an arrangement of notes that are a whole step away from the last note. The formula is 1 2 3 #4 #5 b7. Here it is on one string, on Eb:






It has six notes, but any mode of those notes reveals a transposition. Mode 2 of Eb whole tone is, in fact, F whole tone.






It can be said that there is no tonic for a scale like this, and naming one is sheerly for convenience, as Eb whole tone is F whole tone is G whole tone is A whole tone, and so on. Also, there are only two whole tone scales in existence, and they are a half step apart.

E whole tone: E F# G# A# C D
F whole tone: F G A B C# D#

If you combine these, you get a chromatic scale:
E F F# G G# A B C C# D D#


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## tr0n (Mar 24, 2010)

What's the name of the program you're using to make those nice diagrams? I should probably look into it for my students. Right now I'm just using blank diagram print outs and scribbling on them, and my hand writing isn't the best. =/


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 24, 2010)

Welcome to NECK DIAGRAMS | Neckdiagrams.com


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## shredfreak (Apr 3, 2010)

Will see if i can add the 3 note per string shapes later using that program.

I find the ones you posted very unpractical myself really


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 3, 2010)

I think that the difference here is that traditionally scale shapes are taught using CAGED (even if it's not referred to by that nomenclature) and the 5 positions are very inconsistent for left and right hands - you'll find that many modern players navigate from point A to point B using the 7 position 3 nps scales and play slower licks in the CAGED shapes given their close interaction with chords:

3 nps major scale






C major scale with CAGED shapes and the major triad (stacked) shapes outlined :






The ideal here is to use the shapes as a framework for learning and then forget them in order to incorporate your own phrasing ideas - sticking rigidly to any system is creatively at least a dead end.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 3, 2010)

ShadyDavey said:


> The ideal here is to use the shapes as a framework for learning and then forget them in order to incorporate your own phrasing ideas - sticking rigidly to any system is creatively at least a dead end.



Bingo.



shredfreak said:


> Will see if i can add the 3 note per string shapes later using that program.
> 
> I find the ones you posted very unpractical myself really



You mean this sort of thing?






Sure, the program's pretty flexible. Want to make a seven string, thirty-six fret green fretboard with red root highlights, blue note markers and black text with the tuning labeled, as well as the fret numbers, with all of the notes of the scale in every position all over the board? Yeah, you can do that.






So long as you know how to make the music, you can do whatever you want. That's why I advocate learning the intervals rather than confining oneself to patterns and muscle memory, and why it's important for a musician to learn how music works.


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## Ckackley (Apr 3, 2010)

Wow. This thread rules. By seeing a few different approaches all mixed together it totally fills in gaps that an individual would present. Everyone on here has awesome ideas, but it's the mixture of the idea's that seems most beneficial to me. This forum proves it's awesome again.. :-D


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 3, 2010)

Neck Diagrams is such a great piece of software that I'd have to say if you don't own a copy it's almost an essential purchase because no matter how you view the fretboard or how you approach theory you can create diagrams to match


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## ander09 (Apr 4, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Welcome to NECK DIAGRAMS | Neckdiagrams.com



Thanks man, I was looking for an easy way to create diagrams


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## stryker1800 (Apr 5, 2010)

is that program worth the money they want for it, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 5, 2010)

stryker1800 said:


> is that program worth the money they want for it, that's exactly the kind of thing I'm looking for



I guess it depends on the features that you want. I use some things more than others, don't touch some of the features, find the few glitches a little annoying but livable, and wish that there was some more control over the layout as well as more export options. Download the demo and see for yourself, though. If I recall correctly, the demo is pretty much the full pro version.


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## Dirtdog (Apr 18, 2010)

If you know your natural minor scales or aeolian mode than all you need to do is raise the 7th note a half step. There are about 7 postions but not all are real great to play. Some positions are more useful than others. And patterns will save your ass everytime.


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