# Randall Satan 50 already discontinued?



## LeftOurEyes (May 9, 2019)

I almost bought this amp back around Christmas when a few people found it half off at proaudiostar. They screwed me over with the bait and switch they do sometimes (I got refunded though), but I noticed other people on here got one from them then. I have looked at the amp from time to time since then and noticed a little while ago that the used prices jumped for the 50 on guitar center's site and now none of the normal online stores carry it anymore (says the product is no longer available, not out of stock). I also found a thread from rig talk where a guy said he contacted Randall and they said that the proaudiostar bought the last of their stock for that sale and that it is now discontinued. 

Seems weird to me since so many people asked for that amp, and when they finally release it they discontinue it 6 months later? I have also not heard news anywhere about it being discontinued. News about Randall has been quiet lately except for when the Satan 50 released.

It just made me wonder about the state of Randall. A lot of people have speculated that they might go out of business for awhile. Proaudiostar just had a half off sale for the Diavlo 45 as well. Is this a trend of them liquidating their amps stock before going out of business or are they going to revamp their line up? 

I know no one on here knows for sure probably, I'm just kinda wondering if anyone has heard any news somewhere about anything going on with Randall?


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## technomancer (May 9, 2019)

They were discontinued when proaudiostar had them... they bought the last of the last shipment and blew them out at that price.

Like a lot of other stuff a lot of people whined they wanted them but nobody actually bought them until they were discontinued and being blown out.


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## LeftOurEyes (May 9, 2019)

That makes sense, I just never heard an announcement anywhere. I used to look at their Facebook and they would still post about it, and it was still listed on their website. Seemed like a very quiet death of a brand new amp.

In the thread the guy made on Rig Talk another guy also said the Ola Englund mentioned that it was just rumors that the 50 was discontinued, so the whole thing just seemed weird.


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## technomancer (May 9, 2019)

To be fair while the amps were pretty good Randall (and US Musicorp in general) marketing was a train wreck from the beginning for that whole line. Stuff announced 2 years before it was available to buy, etc etc etc


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## LeviathanKiller (May 9, 2019)

Well fudge
I actually wanted one of these but it isn't the right time right now. Dang


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## Werecow (May 10, 2019)

technomancer said:


> To be fair while the amps were pretty good Randall (and US Musicorp in general) marketing was a train wreck from the beginning for that whole line. Stuff announced 2 years before it was available to buy, etc etc etc



I never saw the Satan or the Thrasher (100w or 50w) in stock on any website in the UK. And i was looking hard for quite a while. It's hard to get a worse launch i think.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 10, 2019)

Might just be a Canada thing but not many Randalls kicking around up here. Also I assume Mike Fortin splitting also had something to do with them no longer producing it, but also if it wasn't selling that doesn't help.


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## technomancer (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Might just be a Canada thing but not many Randalls kicking around up here. Also I assume Mike Fortin splitting also had something to do with them no longer producing it, but also if it wasn't selling that doesn't help.



Given all the other Fortin models are still in supposed to be in production and the split was well before the Satan 50 was introduced I doubt that had anything to do with it unless they ran into some kind of production problem and didn't have the expertise in house to sort it out.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 10, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Given all the other Fortin models are still in supposed to be in production and the split was well before the Satan 50 was introduced I doubt that had anything to do with it unless they ran into some kind of production problem and didn't have the expertise in house to sort it out.



Sorry I spoke completely ignorant of the situation, I just assumed that the designs stayed with him, there was one music store in my town that closed years ago that carried Randall/Washburn stuff but I haven't seen any in person since then, guess that will teach me to talk about stuff I don't know about haha.

Thanks for the info though.


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## StevenC (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Sorry I spoke completely ignorant of the situation, I just assumed that the designs stayed with him, there was one music store in my town that closed years ago that carried Randall/Washburn stuff but I haven't seen any in person since then, guess that will teach me to talk about stuff I don't know about haha.
> 
> Thanks for the info though.


Randall bought all the designs from Mike, which is why Fortin no longer makes the Meathead, Satan or Natas.


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## technomancer (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Sorry I spoke completely ignorant of the situation, I just assumed that the designs stayed with him, there was one music store in my town that closed years ago that carried Randall/Washburn stuff but I haven't seen any in person since then, guess that will teach me to talk about stuff I don't know about haha.
> 
> Thanks for the info though.



All good 



StevenC said:


> Randall bought all the designs from Mike, which is why Fortin no longer makes the Meathead, Satan or Natas.



Yep.


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## Jeff (May 10, 2019)

It doesn't help that USCorp is hot garbage, and has ruined Randall, Washburn, etc.


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## Ribboz (May 10, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Randall bought all the designs from Mike, which is why Fortin no longer makes the Meathead, Satan or Natas.


That's a real bummer if it's true. Always wanted a Natas.


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## technomancer (May 10, 2019)

Ribboz said:


> That's a real bummer if it's true. Always wanted a Natas.



It's true, unless Mike was lying about it on his Facebook when he talked about it a while ago.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 10, 2019)

Jeff said:


> USCorp is hot garbage



All that needed to be said really.


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## Seabeast2000 (May 10, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> All that needed to be said really.



Is this the same company that bought SLM a while back?


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## budda (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Might just be a Canada thing but not many Randalls kicking around up here. Also I assume Mike Fortin splitting also had something to do with them no longer producing it, but also if it wasn't selling that doesn't help.



We do? I have never seen one listed.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 10, 2019)

budda said:


> We do? I have never seen one listed.



Sorry by not many I meant none... I just assumed there were some somewhere that I had not seen lol.


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## efiltsohg (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Might just be a Canada thing but not many Randalls kicking around up here. Also I assume Mike Fortin splitting also had something to do with them no longer producing it, but also if it wasn't selling that doesn't help.



We got 1 in my local store and some poor person bought it by making payments for a year


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## Bearitone (May 10, 2019)

God i don’t understand people that finance gear


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## mnemonic (May 10, 2019)

Some people take out loans to go on vacation.

Some people just suck at money management.


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## Spinedriver (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Sorry I spoke completely ignorant of the situation, I just assumed that the designs stayed with him, there was one music store in my town that closed years ago that carried Randall/Washburn stuff but I haven't seen any in person since then, guess that will teach me to talk about stuff I don't know about haha.
> 
> Thanks for the info though.



Same here. About 10 years ago, there was a small music store here that carried some Randall stuff and I bought a T2 head from there. A few years after that, Long & McQuade bought them out & shut the place down.
There's a surprising number of brands that aren't available around here :\ The most surprising is Peavey because back in the 80's when I first started playing, almost everyone I knew had a Peavey combo of some sort at one point or another. The only way to get one now is either used or online.


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## LeviathanKiller (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> God i don’t understand people that finance gear


I've financed a few things myself where you get it immediately and pay over time. Only a small fee (not the interest kind of thing) and you can get multiple pieces of gear all at once for the same price as 1 new item per month for the next year. That's the way I look at it at least.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> God i don’t understand people that finance gear



Why?? Some people don't make a lot but still want to have it as a hobby, saving a wad of cash for gear is easier said than done, I have financed some things and bought some things out right. 

Why is financing house, car, and any other credit card stuff okay but gear not so much??


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## LeftOurEyes (May 10, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Why is financing house, car, and any other credit card stuff okay but gear not so much??



I'm not saying anything against financing, but financing a house or a car is so much different than musical gear. First off, for most people it would take them half their life to save to $100-200k to buy a house and they still have to live somewhere in the meantime, not really an option to wait and buy outright. You also kind of need a house and a car (or at least transportation of some sort), you don't NEED music equipment to live. That would be considered more of a luxury item. 

The argument against financing stuff like this is that its cheap enough (unlike a house or car) that if you can buy and pay it off in a year on a credit card, just save your money for a year and buy it when you have the money instead. Doing this gives you less instant satisfaction, but in the long run it does get you more gear by not paying interest or fees and likely less buyers remorse because you make less impulse buys and take longer thinking of your next purchase.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 10, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> I'm not saying anything against financing, but financing a house or a car is so much different than musical gear. First off, for most people it would take them half their life to save to $100-200k to buy a house and they still have to live somewhere in the meantime, not really an option to wait and buy outright. You also kind of need a house and a car (or at least transportation of some sort), you don't NEED music equipment to live. That would be considered more of a luxury item.
> 
> The argument against financing stuff like this is that its cheap enough (unlike a house or car) that if you can buy and pay it off in a year on a credit card, just save your money for a year and buy it when you have the money instead. Doing this gives you less instant satisfaction, but in the long run it does get you more gear by not paying interest or fees and likely less buyers remorse because you make less impulse buys and take longer thinking of your next purchase.



Fair enough, and I don't know why I suggested a house as an argument, I'm being a real salty idiot today, work just sucks I think!!


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## Bearitone (May 10, 2019)

When it comes to gear, financing is always a poor decision in my mind. You pay more in the long run, you reinforce instant gratification habits, and you lock yourself into debt for an extended period of time for a drastically depreciating asset.

Houses are one of the only exceptions imo (appreciating asset) but, this is way off topic of the original thread. My apologies for that.


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## budda (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> God i don’t understand people that finance gear



How do you not understand?

Edit: you do understand, you just dont like it .

Also cars are a luxury item.


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## Jeff (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> God i don’t understand people that finance gear



I finance gear all the time, as long as it's zero percent. Why use my money, when I can use theirs?


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## Jeff (May 10, 2019)

budda said:


> How do you not understand?
> 
> Edit: you do understand, you just dont like it .
> 
> *Also cars are a luxury item.*



Not in Illinois they aren't


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## Seabeast2000 (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> When it comes to gear, financing is always a poor decision in my mind. You pay more in the long run, you reinforce instant gratification habits, and you lock yourself into debt for an extended period of time for a drastically depreciating asset.
> 
> Houses are one of the only exceptions imo (appreciating asset) but, this is way off topic of the original thread. My apologies for that.



I mean, interest free promotional financing is a pretty good way to get some shit into your life, just make those terms on time.


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## efiltsohg (May 10, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> A few years after that, Long & McQuade bought them out & shut the place down.



same, almost every guitar shop for 1000 miles is a Long and McQuade now


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## Bearitone (May 10, 2019)

Why risk screwing your credit by not meeting terms on time? 

Shit happens and if for any reason you don’t meet those terms on time (car trouble, injury/illness, lose your job, plain old forgetfulness, etc) your credit is going to take a dip and i imagine penalties on zero percent financing deals are pretty steep too. It’s another tactic to sell shit to people that they can’t afford. 

Sort of a catch 22 but, if financing is the only way you can afford it, you can’t afford it.


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## technomancer (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Why risk screwing your credit by not meeting terms on time?
> 
> Shit happens and if for any reason you don’t meet those terms on time (car trouble, injury/illness, lose your job, plain old forgetfulness, etc) your credit is going to take a dip and i imagine penalties on zero percent financing deals are pretty steep too. It’s another tactic to sell shit to people that they can’t afford.
> 
> Sort of a catch 22 but, if financing is the only way you can afford it, you can’t afford it.



Correct. And if you can afford it why not use 0% financing? The Majesty I just bought I used 0% for. I can easily pay it off at any time and have the cash on hand for it. Now I've got the guitar and the money still in the bank earning interest while I make payments on the remaining balance. If you're living paycheck to paycheck yeah not a good idea, but I'm not and am actually earning on my money. In this situation it is a bit stupid to not take advantage of stuff like this...


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## Ribboz (May 10, 2019)

technomancer said:


> It's true, unless Mike was lying about it on his Facebook when he talked about it a while ago.


I try to avoid Facebook. So I'm totally out of the loop. Thanks for confirming it about Fortin.


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## Bearitone (May 10, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Correct. And if you can afford it why not use 0% financing? The Majesty I just bought I used 0% for. I can easily pay it off at any time and have the cash on hand for it. Now I've got the guitar and the money still in the bank earning interest while I make payments on the remaining balance. If you're living paycheck to paycheck yeah not a good idea, but I'm not and am actually earning on my money. In this situation it is a bit stupid to not take advantage of stuff like this...



That’s the first reasonable argument I’ve heard ^^^ I’d have to do the math and be willing to take on that stress of debt and penalties hanging over my head to get behind it though.


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## rexbinary (May 10, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I finance gear all the time, as long as it's zero percent. Why use my money, when I can use theirs?



Same here. Hell I finance just about everything at 0% including my car while my cash earns interest.


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## budda (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Sort of a catch 22 but, if financing is the only way you can afford it, you can’t afford it.



Yet people out here with homes, appliances, cars, furniture...

Debt isn't always fun, but it's not always going to kill your future either.


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## Bearitone (May 10, 2019)

budda said:


> Yet people out here with homes, appliances, cars, furniture...
> 
> Debt isn't always fun, but it's not always going to kill your future either.



Maybe I’ve been reading too much Dave Ramsey and Mr. Money Mustasche lol


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## lewis (May 10, 2019)

3 bands of people
- rich enough to buy everything out right
- Sensible with money and can use loans and credit effectively to obtain items they want whilst actively boosting their credit scores
- Irresonsible people who just do not care about repayments or take debt seriously - they just want "the item" without any thought on repayments.


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## Emperoff (May 10, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> God i don’t understand people that finance gear



Imagine a guitar you lusted for years pops up at a great price, but you just bought another one months ago and you're short on cash. Now or never.

I chose now, and I just have comfortable payments each month lol.


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## mnemonic (May 11, 2019)

There’s so much cheap yet quality stuff on the used market, if you know what you want you can get a killer rig for not that much. You certainly don’t need to be rich to have quality gear. 

A lot of times with so-called 0% financing they hide fees elsewhere. When I bought my phone (iPhone 7), I could buy the phone outright from Apple and buy a sim-only plan from a provider, or a could finance the phone from a provider on a ‘0% interest for two years’ deal. Except in the cost breakdown, the mobile plan was more expensive than sim-only, and the phone cost was a few hundred more than if I bought it outright. So I saved a few hundred and did that. 

I appreciate that isn’t the case with much financed gear at 0% since the price is the same either way. Just something to keep in mind in other aspects of life when you think you’re getting a free lunch. 

I presume the logic behind 0% interest financing on high-dollar gear, is it convinces people to make a purchase they may not, if they had to see that full lump sum leave their bank account. Or maybe makes it easier for people to upgrade to that thing they probably couldn’t afford since it’s only $x more per month.


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## prlgmnr (May 11, 2019)

With the 0% financing in most cases they 'hide the fees' by charging the shop a percentage, I know my local decent shop doesn't love it, but at the same time they reckon they would barely sell anything without it.


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## Descent (May 13, 2019)

I'm old enough to remember putting gear on layaway, got my first Marshall stack that way. 3 payments, 3 months. They didn't charge me extra. Big local independent store that since closed.


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## cwhitey2 (May 13, 2019)

Descent said:


> I'm old enough to remember putting gear on layaway, got my first Marshall stack that way. 3 payments, 3 months. They didn't charge me extra. Big local independent store that since closed.


I still put shit on layaway!

Mostly just used stuff at my local guitar center though, nothing crazy expensive either.


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## Metropolis (Jun 23, 2019)

Ola left Randall.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Ola left Randall.




Don't blame him. Randall seemed lost without Fortin, just like when Bruce left. 

I mean I get he probably also wants more freedom to play any amp he wants (says so in the video), but the Satan 50 was the last amp they released, and that was after a couple of years of silence. And they haven't done anything since then. AND it was discontinued after only a year or two.


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## Metropolis (Jun 23, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Don't blame him. Randall seemed lost without Fortin, just like when Bruce left.
> 
> I mean I get he probably also wants more freedom to play any amp he wants (says so in the video), but the Satan 50 was the last amp they released, and that was after a couple of years of silence. And they haven't done anything since then. AND it was discontinued after only a year or two.



Not blaming, just sharing this information because I remembered this thread  It will be interesting what's coming next.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

Metropolis said:


> Not blaming, just sharing this information because I remembered this thread  It will be interesting what's coming next.



I mean the part of him leaving Randall. The writing was on the wall since Randall didn't have anything in the works.


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## Spinedriver (Jun 23, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Don't blame him. Randall seemed lost without Fortin, just like when Bruce left.
> 
> I mean I get he probably also wants more freedom to play any amp he wants (says so in the video), but the Satan 50 was the last amp they released, and that was after a couple of years of silence. And they haven't done anything since then. AND it was discontinued after only a year or two.



He did say that it's not that he doesn't like the Satan and won't continue to use it, it's like you said, he just wants the freedom to be able to use whatever amp he wants in any context he wants, be it live, on demo videos, etc... With all of the companies being bought & sold these days, it's almost impossible to tell which ones are genuinely 'done' making stuff or which ones are just 'taking a break' from things and using that time to restructure and possibly come up with some new designs.

It'd be nice to think that Randall is just kind of laying low for now and possibly coming up with some new ideas but the longer they go without anything new, the harder it's going to be for them to get any kind of traction when they do because everyone will be "who is Randall again and when was the last time they made anything decent ? "

Kinda like Digitech. They released the GSP1101 and got themselves a really nice foothold in modeling circles and it kinda all went to waste because the only thing they ever followed it up with was those horrible Elements pedals.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

In context, Randall isn't in good shape.

Other companies in Randall's parent company aren't in great shape either.

As said, Randall's been borderline dead ever since Fortin left
Washburn's been the same ever since Ola left
And Parker guitars has been dead for years.

Also Digitech kinda carved out a new niche. They tried to go for digital single-effect pedals after ditching the amp modeling thing went flat. Kinda went along with DOD releasing analog pedals.

But after Samsung bought Harman, it seems like they decided to scrap most of the guitar stuff.


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## mpexus (Jun 23, 2019)

Well I made an assumption early today on Ola FB Group about probably an Amp or Pedal or VST but sold by Ola (as Solar brand) and Mike Fortin put a Like on it... not only on me but on others that assumed similar... so take it as you see fit


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

mpexus said:


> Well I made an assumption early today on Ola FB Group about probably an Amp or Pedal or VST but sold by Ola (as Solar brand) and Mike Fortin put a Like on it... not only on me but on others that assumed similar... so take it as you see fit



Probably a Neural DSP based on the Satan.
But I wouldn't be surprised if either a Fortin Ola sig is in the works, or Ola tries to release a Solar amp.


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## mnemonic (Jun 23, 2019)

If I were Ola, I probably wouldn’t be super happy about Randall’s terrible distribution. I don’t think I ever saw them in stock anywhere in the U.K. or EU, even online it was a special order thing. 

I think he’s spoken before about making Solar amps (this was a long while ago) and if I remember right, he said he didn’t think he ever would because of how the amp market is shrinking and is hard to make a profit in, or something like that. 

Especially as he uses an AX8 live, and uses his laptop and an interface at smaller things, maybe he’ll do some sort of analog pedal preamp or something. Those seem to be all the rage at the moment. 

Or maybe just a Satan plugin like said above.


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## mpexus (Jun 23, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Probably a Neural DSP based on the Satan.
> But I wouldn't be surprised if either a Fortin Ola sig is in the works, or Ola tries to release a Solar amp.



Yeah most certain a VST but Ola also is always looking for the next Fly Gig rig... that's why I mentioned maybe a Pedal.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

mpexus said:


> Yeah most certain a VST but Ola also is always looking for the next Fly Gig rig... that's why I mentioned maybe a Pedal.



Fortin always talked about wanting to do a preamp pedal,or an actual amp in a pedal. So I wouldn't be surprised if a pedal amp/preamp would be the next project.


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## Spinedriver (Jun 23, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Also Digitech kinda carved out a new niche. They tried to go for digital single-effect pedals after ditching the amp modeling thing went flat. Kinda went along with DOD releasing analog pedals.



That's what's making me wonder. The Freq-Out, Boneshaker, Drop, etc.. pedals all came out a few years ago. Just last year (after all of those pedals had come out), the entire R&D dept. of Digitech were let go. I'm just curious if they're still working on new pedals or if they're in the same spot Randall is, in that they're still a functioning company (as such) but they just don't seem to be working on anything new (no booth at winter or summer NAMM, etc...).


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> That's what's making me wonder. The Freq-Out, Boneshaker, Drop, etc.. pedals all came out a few years ago. Just last year (after all of those pedals had come out), the entire R&D dept. of Digitech were let go. I'm just curious if they're still working on new pedals or if they're in the same spot Randall is, in that they're still a functioning company (as such) but they just don't seem to be working on anything new (no booth at winter or summer NAMM, etc...).



Probably the Latter. I doubt as a company Digitech is anymore. Harman probably laid them off because IIRC, Samsung just wanted them for their home/car audio tech I believe? I don't remember exactly.


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## crankyrayhanky (Jun 23, 2019)

That Hardwire series was fantastic. They do seem dead now. 

Kind of surprising to hear Ola used all plugins for his solo release. The guy that we all revere for getting awesome metal amp tones doesn't give a f*ck when it comes time to do his own release and goes with plugins?! Oh, how I've wasted my tube amp dollars, lol!

Randall sucks. They are the kings of revealing an awesome new product only to drag their feet for years to (and sometimes never) release. They had Mike FORTIN on board and lost him rather quickly. Awful. Their only chance is to re-release some vintage solid state Dimebag amps cheap-cheap because I think they are all but done as a quality tube option.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 23, 2019)

ngl, if Randall releases an RG100ES/RG100HT reissue next year for the 20th anniversary of CFH, they'd make fucking bank.

...Or not, because they wouldn't make it to the shops until the 20th anniversary of VDoP, when they announce a 20th anniversay Century 200II... which won't see the light of day until the 20th annversay of FBD... You get what I mean.


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## Matt08642 (Jun 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> 3 bands of people
> - rich enough to buy everything out right
> - Sensible with money and can use loans and credit effectively to obtain items they want whilst actively boosting their credit scores
> - Irresonsible people who just do not care about repayments or take debt seriously - they just want "the item" without any thought on repayments.



I'm definitely not loaded enough to buy whatever I want, but I also don't use loans or credit for gear (since I'm honestly a bedroom, non-gigging guitarist that doesn't "need" anything). I buy most of my stuff used (especially pedals), and don't constantly churn through gear.

I think if you're a gigging musician, it's more reasonable to do something like finance a bigger amp or something if you need one at the time, or maybe you make and sell your music online and want an AFXIII that you know you'll use.

In my case, financing something I don't need at all seems foolish


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## LuciusBolt (Jun 23, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> _*There’s so much cheap yet quality stuff on the used market, if you know what you want you can get a killer rig for not that much. You certainly don’t need to be rich to have quality gear. *_
> 
> A lot of times with so-called 0% financing they hide fees elsewhere. When I bought my phone (iPhone 7), I could buy the phone outright from Apple and buy a sim-only plan from a provider, or a could finance the phone from a provider on a ‘0% interest for two years’ deal. Except in the cost breakdown, the mobile plan was more expensive than sim-only, and the phone cost was a few hundred more than if I bought it outright. So I saved a few hundred and did that.
> 
> ...



I Agree with the above statement as said previously as long as you know what you want and do you your homework you can definitely score some bargains on the used market.


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## Glades (Jun 25, 2019)

Don't want to steer this in a religious direction, but purely from a MARKETING standpoint, the amp name "Satan" is a marketing disaster. In marketing you want to appeal to as many people as possible. This is already a metal amp, which is a niche market. But then you have to remember that a lot of metalheads are christians too. And to a christian, Satan is a defeated foe, a powerless loser, defeated by the blood of Christ. And no christian will want to own anything with his name on it. So the amp appeals to a niche within a niche.


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## prlgmnr (Jun 25, 2019)

I dunno, Dave Friedman has a flagship amp named after the human anus and it doesn't seem to have done too much damage to sales.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

Cannibal corpse right now is like fuck should have appealed to the christian demographic.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 25, 2019)

Glades said:


> Don't want to steer this in a religious direction, but purely from a MARKETING standpoint, the amp name "Satan" is a marketing disaster. In marketing you want to appeal to as many people as possible. This is already a metal amp, which is a niche market. But then you have to remember that a lot of metalheads are christians too. And to a christian, Satan is a defeated foe, a powerless loser, defeated by the blood of Christ. And no christian will want to own anything with his name on it. So the amp appeals to a niche within a niche.



Randall had a shit ton of problems. 

Having an amp named the Satan was a very very minor problem compared to the rest, or not even a blip on the radar.


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## MrWulf (Jun 25, 2019)

Nice bait


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

After weeks of intense protests, Randall has announced that they have renamed the Randall 666 the Randall 667


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 25, 2019)

MrWulf said:


> Nice bait



I've unfortunately seen people make that argument for serious.


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## prlgmnr (Jun 25, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I've unfortunately seen people make that argument for serious.



https://sevenstring.org/threads/solar-guitars-by-ola-englund.326469/page-44#post-4925069


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 25, 2019)

prlgmnr said:


> https://sevenstring.org/threads/solar-guitars-by-ola-englund.326469/page-44#post-4925069



https://old.reddit.com/r/nottheonion/


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 25, 2019)

prlgmnr said:


> I dunno, Dave Friedman has a flagship amp named after the human anus and it doesn't seem to have done too much damage to sales.



BE = Brown Eye?


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## thrashinbatman (Jun 25, 2019)

The906 said:


> BE = Brown Eye?


And it's got the HBE mode, or Hairy Brown Eye.


Wait until you figure out what the Friedman PT means!


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 25, 2019)

thrashinbatman said:


> And it's got the HBE mode, or Hairy Brown Eye.
> 
> 
> Wait until you figure out what the Friedman PT means!



I got that one. There is/was a local place called Taco Pelon. Bald Taco. They sell tacos.


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## R34CH (Jun 25, 2019)

Hahaha Satan is a little more in your face than Brown Eye (or more commonly BE-100). I can understand why some Christians would steer clear. Is that a large enough demographic to matter though? I doubt it.

This from the guy that plays regularly in the church band and creates all the patches for the church's POD. There may or may not be a super high gain patch with no practical Sunday purpose modeled after a particularly unholy amp.

It may or may not be called, "Get Behind Me."


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## prlgmnr (Jun 25, 2019)

I dunno, I've never had Satan in my face but......what were we talking about again?


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## mnemonic (Jun 25, 2019)

I’m not really a fan of the Satan name either, not for religious reasons, I just think it sounds cheesy as hell.


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## Bearitone (Jun 25, 2019)

The Satan is a badass amp. Seriously an amazing amp especially for the price they can be found used. I don’t know why Randall wouldn’t just keep the amp in production and rename it after Ola left.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

thrashinbatman said:


> And it's got the HBE mode, or Hairy Brown Eye.
> 
> 
> Wait until you figure out what the Friedman PT means!



The PT is actually a dish served at Japanese fusion restaurants consisting of a lightly tempura'd corn tortilla filled with salmon sashimi and drenched in a clear special sauce.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 25, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> The PT is actually a dish served at Japanese fusion restaurants consisting of a lightly tempura'd corn tortilla filled with salmon sashimi and drenched in a clear special sauce.



I assume its all about technique after that?


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## Ribboz (Jun 25, 2019)

What about an Ola Englung Engl signature amp? 

I know it goes against his desire to be a little more free to play what he wants. But that would be pretty rad. Especially since he played them for a long time.


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## StevenC (Jun 25, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> The Satan is a badass amp. Seriously an amazing amp especially for the price they can be found used. I don’t know why Randall wouldn’t just keep the amp in production and rename it after Ola left.


I think it's because Randall is incompetent.


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## gunch (Jun 25, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I think it's because Randall is incompetent.



That and the umbrella corp owning them are mega-incompetent


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 25, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I think it's because Randall is incompetent.





gunch said:


> That and the umbrella corp owning them are mega-incompetent



Yup. Ass upper-management, ass distribution... Surprised it took this long. It sucks because Randall had a shit-ton of underrated amps.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

Nonsensical. 

They had great sig artists. 

They were doing really interesting stuff with good designers. 

Mts is awesome. The fortin stuff all sounds great. 

But nope. 

Like shitty blackstar survives and moves tons of units. 

This is the worst timeline.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 25, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Nonsensical.
> 
> They had great sig artists.
> 
> ...



Because Blackstar actually has distribution, great marketing, and higher-ups that knew what the fuck they're doing. 

Never said the products or the design sucked. The people meant to get those designs out there did.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 26, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Because Blackstar actually has distribution, great marketing, and higher-ups that knew what the fuck they're doing.
> 
> Never said the products or the design sucked. The people meant to get those designs out there did.



Ya I agree. They were baddies. Just goes to show that hedge fund backing, a money to throw at marketing, and rebranded jcm900s is all you need for success.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 26, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Ya I agree. They were baddies. Just goes to show that hedge fund backing, a money to throw at marketing, and rebranded jcm900s is all you need for success.



It worked because for awhile everyfuckingone was using blackstars.  That and the fact they got into both the budget tube amp and mini tube amp market before the boom really happened.


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## mpexus (Jun 26, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> It worked because for awhile everyfuckingone was using blackstars.  That and the fact they got into both the budget tube amp and mini tube amp market before the boom really happened.



And that is called Excellent Marketing skiils 

Music barely makes any money but Gear keeps selling. There are more people buying Gear today than never. Tons of small gigs or bedroom players that dont need 100W or 50W beast... but do these old school Companies do anything to provide them solutions that are affordable and more important, adequate to their needs? Nope, rarely anyone old does...

They will "cry" when Digital will take over for good. It started already and it keeps getting better year by year.Might not be tomorrow but I pretty much doubt in 20 years half Amp builders are still operating. Amps will be kinda of a thing to record with on a Studio, and how many of the same does a studio need? Exactly.


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## Shoeless_jose (Jun 26, 2019)

As meh as Blackstar is, as a SLX2100 owner, I take offense to re branded JCM900s being used as a negative.

My JCM will throat fuck the universe with or without a boost.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 27, 2019)

Dineley said:


> As meh as Blackstar is, as a SLX2100 owner, I take offense to re branded JCM900s being used as a negative.
> 
> My JCM will throat fuck the universe with or without a boost.



A JCM900 sounds brutal as fuck with an SD1 and puts any blackstar to shame 

Don't @ me


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## efiltsohg (Jun 27, 2019)

Blackstars sound good, I don't get why everybody suddenly hates them.

Blackheart, on the other hand, were some godawful amps


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 27, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> Blackstars sound good, I don't get why everybody suddenly hates them.
> 
> Blackheart, on the other hand, were some godawful amps



Can't suddnely hate something when you never liked them in the first place. 

I tried an HT series amp back in the day when they were the next big thing. Never got the hype. And if I were to go solely by demos and album recordings, I never got the hype behind the Series One as well. Just sounded like a more generic Uberschall or Recto. For the price youd spend on a Series One there was much better on the market.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 27, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Can't suddnely hate something when you never liked them in the first place.
> 
> I tried an HT series amp back in the day when they were the next big thing. Never got the hype. And if I were to go solely by demos and album recordings, I never got the hype behind the Series One as well. Just sounded like a more generic Uberschall or Recto. For the price youd spend on a Series One there was much better on the market.



I've always hated them and their marketing team.
fucking diodes and solid state gain stages. get out of here with that shit.


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## MASS DEFECT (Jun 27, 2019)

Blackstars were one of the makers who put power soak knob standard in their amps though. And I appreciated that. We once played a gig with a sponsored backline of Blackstar 200s. I couldn't get it to saturate enough, putting it in about under 100 watts did the trick. I thought that was a cool feature. Along with their ISF brit-american knob.


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## efiltsohg (Jun 27, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I've always hated them and their marketing team.
> fucking diodes and solid state gain stages. get out of here with that shit.


If nobody told you they had those you wouldn't know the difference


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 27, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> If nobody told you they had those you wouldn't know the difference



It also sounds like shit. So there's that.


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## Bearitone (Jun 27, 2019)

There’s absolutely nothing stopping diode clipping or a solid state preamp from sounding phenomenal


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## Descent (Jun 27, 2019)

Blackstar invaded the market with "tube" amps that weren't quite tube. Anything besides the Artisan that I've heard is not very good. The Artisan on the other hand is super $$$$ so for that cash might as well go real Plexi or a clone like Metropoulos. 

A friend of mine swears by their Core 100 (or something like that)
https://blackstaramps.com/uk/products/idcore-stereo-100

I haven't really been impressed by their modeling either. 

On the other hand Randall seems to bring impressive stuff but always falls short or gives up the product for some reason. MTS, for example, was/is a revolutionary amp, luckily it found a new home in the Synergy amps product line.
http://www.synergyamps.com/

On the other hand, the latest incarnations of Randall didn't seem to appealing to me, a bit overcooked IMO, the Satan, Thrasher, etc. were just too bright and brash for my taste. If we were still recording to tape that will probably work better but the way these were tuned just hurt my ears. Too much like a EVH/5150/6505.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 27, 2019)

MASS DEFECT said:


> Blackstars were one of the makers who put power soak knob standard in their amps though. And I appreciated that. We once played a gig with a sponsored backline of Blackstar 200s. I couldn't get it to saturate enough, putting it in about under 100 watts did the trick. I thought that was a cool feature. Along with their ISF brit-american knob.



Sucks the amps with those innovations are outclassed by amps half their price, even when they were released.



efiltsohg said:


> If nobody told you they had those you wouldn't know the difference



If the HT series was the first tube amp I ever tried, and found out about the hybrid preamp, I would assume that all hybrid amps sound like crap. 

Since we're talking about Randall, the RD series is lightyears ahead of the HT series. And the higher-end tube amps are better than the Series Ones.


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## mnemonic (Jun 27, 2019)

That feeling when you realise the Fortin Meshuggah has diode clipping you can’t turn off, so now it sounds bad


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 27, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> That feeling when you realise the Fortin Meshuggah has diode clipping you can’t turn off, so now it sounds bad









Fwiw I'm like the biggest supporter of hybrid amp technology on this forum  Look at how much I pimp the Randall T2, V2, and Valvestates. That and I really dig amps like the 2-channel JCMs and the Silver Jube, and of course Jose mods, the very same one that I BELIEVE the Fortin Meshuggah is based on... The HT series just blows.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jun 29, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> That feeling when you realise the Fortin Meshuggah has diode clipping you can’t turn off, so now it sounds bad




... which turns to even more disappoint when you realize it should be called the Fortin Repackaged-Jose Marshall mod... a 35 year old $100 amp mod... hyped up and repackaged for today’s millennial djent militia. Yay.


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## technomancer (Jun 29, 2019)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> ... which turns to even more disappoint when you realize it should be called the Fortin Repackaged-Jose Marshall mod... a 35 year old $100 amp mod... hyped up and repackaged for today’s millennial djent militia. Yay.



Which lets be real is nothing new... Wizards that everybody raves about are basically variations on the Marshall Jubilee that people are paying $5k for because they're built on a strip board and have been hyped up. The only thing that was annoying about the Meshuggah was that the marketing flat out lied initially claiming the circuit was 4 gain stages etc etc etc


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jun 29, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Which lets be real is nothing new... Wizards that everybody raves about are basically variations on the Marshall Jubilee that people are paying $5k for because they're built on a strip board and have been hyped up. The only thing that was annoying about the Meshuggah was that the marketing flat out lied initially claiming the circuit was 4 gain stages etc etc etc




Eh... sound is in the ear of the beholder. I'll take any Wizard for the sound alone over anything Fortin. Also measured at 525+ volts on the plates makes any Wizard a bit different than a Marshall 2555 with around 420 plate voltage. Filtering and design-wise. They are a bit different in the preamp layout too. And Wizards are built beginning to end by one man. Not outsourced to Metro-Amps in Michigan and built by who-knows-who from an amp kit. Most likely a 16 year old with a soldering iron and a set of instructions. Good luck to the "Fortin Amp Army"... they'll need it when they fully learn what they actually paid for, where it was built, and ghost built by whom.


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## technomancer (Jun 29, 2019)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Eh... sound is in the ear of the beholder. I'll take any Wizard for the sound alone over anything Fortin. Also measured at 525+ volts on the plates makes any Wizard a bit different than a Marshall 2555 with around 420 plate voltage. Filtering and design-wise. They are a bit different in the preamp layout too. And Wizards are built beginning to end by one man. Not outsourced to Metro-Amps in Michigan and built by who-knows-who from an amp kit. Most likely a 16 year old with a soldering iron and a set of instructions. Good luck to the "Fortin Amp Army"... they'll need it when they fully learn what they actually paid for, where it was built, and ghost built by whom.



Was talking strictly design. The Meshuggah is a Jose variant... the Wizards are Jubilee variants. I get you're a fan of one and not the other, but neither is anything revolutionary from an amp design standpoint. Personally Fortin lost me with the chuck a bag of money over the boarder and wait business model, regardless of the design and if Metro is building them (which was clearly the case for at least the later production Meshuggahs).


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## Bearitone (Jun 29, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Was talking strictly design. The Meshuggah is a Jose variant... the Wizards are Jubilee variants. I get you're a fan of one and not the other, but neither is anything revolutionary from an amp design standpoint. Personally Fortin lost me with the chuck a bag of money over the boarder and wait business model, regardless of the design and if Metro is building them (which was clearly the case for at least the later production Meshuggahs).



Yeah can someone explain that business model? Why does Fortin have this weird money transfer process to get one of their amps?


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## StevenC (Jun 29, 2019)

Bearitone said:


> Yeah can someone explain that business model? Why does Fortin have this weird money transfer process to get one of their amps?


Because they have enough hype surrounding them that they don't have to be consumer friendly. Why spend their own money when they can spend our money. They have to pay Metro to build the amps, so instead of ordering 30 amps and then selling them when they're ready, they sell 30 amp preorders then use that money to pay Metro to build and deliver the amps. They don't accept credit cards because it costs more money to accept credit cards than bank transfers.


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## technomancer (Jun 29, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Because they have enough hype surrounding them that they don't have to be consumer friendly. Why spend their own money when they can spend our money. They have to pay Metro to build the amps, so instead of ordering 30 amps and then selling them when they're ready, they sell 30 amp preorders then use that money to pay Metro to build and deliver the amps. They don't accept credit cards because it costs more money to accept credit cards than bank transfers.



From talking to Mike the reason for the bank transfer thing is he doesn't want to risk fraud and be on the hook for a charge back by either credit card or paypal. So the good is it is minimal risk as long as they are willing to nickel and dime things. The bad is that model only works if you don't ever plan to grow out of the limited small run business model.


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## Werecow (Jun 30, 2019)

technomancer said:


> From talking to Mike the reason for the bank transfer thing is he doesn't want to risk fraud and be on the hook for a charge back by either credit card or paypal. So the good is it is minimal risk as long as they are willing to nickel and dime things. The bad is that model only works if you don't ever plan to grow out of the limited small run business model.



I reckon his business model is to carry on with the small runs of amps to give his brand this high-end out of reach image, and then collect the real $$$ from pedals and amps sims. It seems to be working really.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jun 30, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Was talking strictly design. The Meshuggah is a Jose variant... the Wizards are Jubilee variants. I get you're a fan of one and not the other, but neither is anything revolutionary from an amp design standpoint.



Not revolutionary. Never said they were. But I'd disagree with the Wizard MCII being a 2555 variant. Even less so with the MTL. Wizard has 6 preamp tubes, individual channels, 4 true tube gain stages, with added diode clipping. Power amp is much different. More filtering, way higher plate voltage, E34L power section (as most current production EL34s can't take 525+ on the plates) entire layout is way different. OT/PT again are much different too. Similar... somewhat.



technomancer said:


> Personally Fortin lost me with the chuck a bag of money over the boarder and wait business model, regardless of the design and if Metro is building them (which was clearly the case for at least the later production Meshuggahs).



Fortin lost me after owning several of his modified Marshalls. They have a focused/boosted mid "clank" sound to them. Piercing mids. Like banging a metal pot with a metal spoon. It is something in the design/layout of his amps. Then marketing the "Meshuggah Amp" as having 4 preamp tube stages, and being built by him in Whitby Canada... only to find out they were all ghost-built by Metro-Amps in Michigan USA from amp kits, by god only knows who... certainly not Fortin. If Mike Fortin was up-front about these facts, I wonder how many he really would've sold? Add-in Fortin ripping off designs from Larry, Fryette, and who knows who else... no thanks. Far from a stand-up honest builder. I wouldn't touch anything with a Fortin label anywhere on it.

And let's not forget who he has managing his social media, online presence, and online marketing? That's a winner there!

Send him $3000 on the promise of delivering an amp without any recourse. Heck no!


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jun 30, 2019)

Werecow said:


> I reckon his business model is to carry on with the small runs of amps to give his brand this high-end out of reach image, and then collect the real $$$ from pedals and amps sims. It seems to be working really.




More accurate business model... lying to customers, ripping off then repacking the amp designs from other builders, and then over-charging for his plagiarized work which is ghost built by some other company not even him... yep seems to be working. Until peeps find out what the real deal is. See how many he sells then.


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## technomancer (Jun 30, 2019)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> Not revolutionary. Never said they were. But I'd disagree with the Wizard MCII being a 2555 variant. Even less so with the MTL. Wizard has 6 preamp tubes, individual channels, 4 true tube gain stages, with added diode clipping. Power amp is much different. More filtering, way higher plate voltage, E34L power section (as most current production EL34s can't take 525+ on the plates) entire layout is way different. OT/PT again are much different too. Similar... somewhat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They were ghost built by Metro... not sure where the kit thing came from but I've never seen a kit with the component selection in the Meshuggahs. I was actually the one that pointed out the shipping address on the Meshuggahs was the Metro address. And yeah no idea at all why they lied about it after the fact, pretty dumb really.

I know the girth / grind controls were supposed to have been lifted from Larry, but what did he copy from Fryette? First I've heard that one.


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## Wizard of Ozz (Jun 30, 2019)

technomancer said:


> They were ghost built by Metro... not sure where the kit thing came from but I've never seen a kit with the component selection in the Meshuggahs. I was actually the one that pointed out the shipping address on the Meshuggahs was the Metro address. And yeah no idea at all why they lied about it after the fact, pretty dumb really.
> 
> I know the girth / grind controls were supposed to have been lifted from Larry, but what did he copy from Fryette? First I've heard that one.



By kit I mean the box, chassis, and assembly being done in a paint by numbers fashion by someone at Metro-Amps with an instruction sheet and bags of components. Plug-and-solder. They were definitely NOT built by him in Canada as customers were lead to believe.

Lots of what went in to his Natas/Satan amps came from the Fryette Ultra-Lead. Fortin owned the UL and several other Fryette amps at one point. Right before releasing his Natas. Look at the pcbs layout for both the Satan and UL... both 120W KT88s. Play them side by side and the coincidence is even harder to believe.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 30, 2019)

tl;dr: Just get a Revv?


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## LeftOurEyes (Jun 30, 2019)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> And let's not forget who he has managing his social media, online presence, and online marketing? That's a winner there!



I dunno where I saw a thread with him, I think rig talk, but DAMN he is the biggest D-bag ever. He sounded like he wanted you to suck his D just for a chance to buy anything Fortin. He is also the kinda guy that sounds like he thinks that he is god's gift to the earth, almost like a wall street kinda guy would act. He was antagonizing literally everyone, who are ya know, supposed to be his customers. Made me never want to buy anything Fortin again. I mean he doesn't even make his own stuff now and lets sleazy people like that run things for him. I'm over his stuff and would rather have a Splawn or Ceriatone for a modded Marshall sound than a Fortin anything.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 30, 2019)

LeftOurEyes said:


> I'm over his stuff and would rather have a Splawn or Ceriatone for a modded Marshall sound than a Fortin anything.



That's how I feel. I was a huge Fortin fanboy, but ever since the passed few years he kinda showed himself. Not like I can afford it anyway, but still.  Was thinking about getting a Grind, but meh. 

I also remember when someone asked about what the Meshuggah was based on back when it first came out, and his response was "built from the ground up", when it seems like it's just a tweaked Jose mod.


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## technomancer (Jun 30, 2019)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> By kit I mean the box, chassis, and assembly being done in a paint by numbers fashion by someone at Metro-Amps with an instruction sheet and bags of components. Plug-and-solder. They were definitely NOT built by him in Canada as customers were lead to believe.
> 
> Lots of what went in to his Natas/Satan amps came from the Fryette Ultra-Lead. Fortin owned the UL and several other Fryette amps at one point. Right before releasing his Natas. Look at the pcbs layout for both the Satan and UL... both 120W KT88s. Play them side by side and the coincidence is even harder to believe.



Pretty sure they were actually built by George at Metro... he's a one man shop (his wife was helping with business stuff, but he builds everything or did until the recent pedals). That said they were pretty much a stock plexi chassis and headshell.

That's first I've heard of them being similar to the UL. I've never looked in or seen schematics of either though.


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## StevenC (Jun 30, 2019)

Other than the dishonesty, surely having the amps built by Metro isn't a bad thing, or have I missed something?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 30, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Other than the dishonesty, surely having the amps built by Metro isn't a bad thing, or have I missed something?


I don't think it is tbh. If anything that would be something you'd wanna shout from the rooftops.  Would help pique the interests of hardcore gearheads, since George Metro is considered one of the best Plexi builders out there.

I don't understand why'd you'd be so hush-hush about it. Ego or something?


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## efiltsohg (Jul 2, 2019)

every amp is literally just a bassman anyway

which is an RCA radio


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## Andromalia (Jul 2, 2019)

technomancer said:


> From talking to Mike the reason for the bank transfer thing is he doesn't want to risk fraud and be on the hook for a charge back by either credit card or paypal. So the good is it is minimal risk as long as they are willing to nickel and dime things. The bad is that model only works if you don't ever plan to grow out of the limited small run business model.


A business taking only wire and not CC is clearly a warning sign for me. There's no way I'd give up CC insurance over such a large purchase.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 2, 2019)

efiltsohg said:


> every amp is literally just a bassman anyway
> 
> which is an RCA radio



nobody strawmans like a diode defender.

have a gold star.


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## MASS DEFECT (Jul 2, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> A business taking only wire and not CC is clearly a warning sign for me. There's no way I'd give up CC insurance over such a large purchase.



Truth. It's a scary transaction for 3k USD with no consumer protection. It's just a Cameron waiting to happen.


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## LeviathanKiller (Aug 1, 2019)

It was posted elsewhere (I think the Solar Guitars thread) but makes sense why it was discontinued now


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## Wookieslayer (Aug 2, 2019)

Enlightening thread read...


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## narad (Aug 2, 2019)

Man, I love that matte/gloss black contrast on the top of that singlecut. If solar was around when I was a teen I might have never gotten into guitars > $1200 :O

But yea, interesting. I thought he was going to join up with Fortin or do plug-ins.


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