# Apparently Stephen Carpenter is an anti science dumbass



## broj15 (Nov 14, 2020)

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nme.com/en_asia/news/music/deftones-guitarist-stephen-carpenter-believes-the-earth-is-flat-2816189?amp

Flat earther, covid denier, anti vaxer.

Thoughts & opinions lol?


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## sleewell (Nov 14, 2020)

Dont have to be smart to get famous. Still love their music even if I don't agree with his positions on these issues. Kinda seems troll like but maybe not who knows lol.


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## binz (Nov 14, 2020)

Lol what the actual f*ck? Always shocking people utter things like that.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 14, 2020)

Famous people spout nonsense like this when they want some attention and it’s worked wonderfully. Every click bait news site jumped on it and it’s being posted across social media and forums. 

No surprise everyone is talking about Deftones again this week.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 14, 2020)

i mean anyone that likes this pickup configuration is clearly a dumbass:


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## SpaceDock (Nov 14, 2020)

A lot of wealthy and/or famous people benefit from getting to live in their own reality.


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## fps (Nov 14, 2020)

Ah well, I enjoy his band and playing, and it’s not like he’s making policy in these areas.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 14, 2020)




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## possumkiller (Nov 14, 2020)

To listen to a lot of famous guitarists that have no clue how their instrument works, it's not really surprising. 

My new outlook is to assume that everyone on Earth is a drooling, knuckle-dragging fucking moron. If I talk to someone and find out they are an intelligent lifeform, I am pleasantly surprised. It definitely beats assuming everyone is on relatively the same level of intelligence as yourself or higher and then being constantly disappointed and depressed over the sheer ignorance and stupidity of almost everyone you ever talk to.


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## GraemeH (Nov 14, 2020)

Listen, Deftones have been my favourite band for 20 years at this point. But anyone who has ever heard Steff speak knows their microwave display is smarter than he is.

Stay away from weed, kids. At least, stay away from that much.


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## Kaura (Nov 14, 2020)

He can say whatever he wants but in the end it's the music that speaks. I mean, I still dig RATM even though I can't agree with Tom Morello's political views at all.


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## mpexus (Nov 14, 2020)

Kaura said:


> He can say whatever he wants but in the end it's the music that speaks. I mean, I still dig RATM even though I can't agree with Tom Morello's political views at all.



There is a huge difference in not agreeing with someone Opinion or Political view and with someone that is clearly stupid. Anyone that say that the Earth is Flat is plain Stupid, there is no other way to put it.


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## possumkiller (Nov 14, 2020)

mpexus said:


> There is a huge difference in not agreeing with someone Opinion or Political view and with someone that is clearly stupid. Anyone that say that the Earth is Flat is plain Stupid, there is no other way to put it.


Or trolling. Which a lot of rock star smart asses like to do.


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## Kaura (Nov 14, 2020)

mpexus said:


> There is a huge difference in not agreeing with someone Opinion or Political view and with someone that is clearly stupid. Anyone that say that the Earth is Flat is plain Stupid, there is no other way to put it.



Nevermind, got your point. I guess...

The point being, I assume is, as there is nothing wrong to believe in what you want, believing in something like anti-vaxxing can be dangerous as it could actually lead to deaths.


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## Demiurge (Nov 14, 2020)

Flat earth is obviously stupid, but it's one of those things that stupid people adopt to appear interesting. Isn't being guitarist for the Deftones interesting enough?


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## BlackMastodon (Nov 14, 2020)

Man, never meet your heroes/listen to good guitarists talk about not-guitars. At least he isn't spouting white supremacy bullshit, I guess.


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## Kaura (Nov 14, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> Man, never meet your heroes/listen to good guitarists talk about not-guitars. At least he isn't spouting white supremacy bullshit, I guess.



Now that would be funny coming from a half-Mexican. I was thinking of making a joke how ironic it would be if Periphery was a NatSoc band. Just as ironic as Tom "millionaire" Morello preaching about communism.


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## gnoll (Nov 14, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> Man, never meet your heroes/listen to good guitarists talk about not-guitars. At least he isn't spouting white supremacy bullshit, I guess.



I don't see why musicians should be your heroes in the first place. Ok, you like their music, that's great. But you don't know that person. It seems so weird and unhealthy to let the personal lives, thoughts and feelings of people you've never met affect you just because they're a public figure. I mean, I get it happening, but I think it should be avoided as much as possible...


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## possumkiller (Nov 14, 2020)

gnoll said:


> I don't see why musicians should be your heroes in the first place. Ok, you like their music, that's great. But you don't know that person. It seems so weird and unhealthy to let the personal lives, thoughts and feelings of people you've never met affect you just because they're a public figure. I mean, I get it happening, but I think it should be avoided as much as possible...


Young people and certain kinds of needy adults need someone they want to think is better than they are to worship.


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## slan (Nov 14, 2020)

Lost a ton of respect for him.


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## Randy (Nov 14, 2020)

The guy's brain is like, marinating in THC oil.


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## Werecow (Nov 14, 2020)

“The simplest terms for my perspective with flat Earth is simply, I know we’re not on a spinning, flying space ball,” he said.

“Now, what it actually is and all that and, and, and to what depths it goes to, that’s all still to be discovered and people are are working on those things.”

Jesus Christ what an absolute fucking dumbass. 

Half of me wants to hear from him who exactly are these people working on those things? Is it by chance his supplier, who also comes to smoke with him every other day, and also talks about his aerials to the universe? But i think i'd tear my hair out having to read anymore of his opinions.

The annoying thing is that this is going to influence some of the people that listen to his bullshit  I can ignore some stuff, but this will stop me buying any more Deftones. I just can't support someone like this.


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## BlackMastodon (Nov 14, 2020)

gnoll said:


> I don't see why musicians should be your heroes in the first place. Ok, you like their music, that's great. But you don't know that person. It seems so weird and unhealthy to let the personal lives, thoughts and feelings of people you've never met affect you just because they're a public figure. I mean, I get it happening, but I think it should be avoided as much as possible...





possumkiller said:


> Young people and certain kinds of needy adults need someone they want to think is better than they are to worship.



I should specify: I don't idolize Steph or think he's a personal hero or anything like that, more or less commenting on the fact that we have no idea what goes through peoples' heads when we only see one side of them. It's like when you only see an actor playing certain roles, you get a picture in your head of who they might be, and then you see them in interviews and they're totally different.

Steph's pants-on-head-stupid ideas don't affect my life at all, it's just every now and then when I'm listening to Deftones I'll have a laugh and shake my head.



Werecow said:


> The annoying thing is that this is going to influence some of the people that listen to his bullshit  I can ignore some stuff, but this will stop me buying any more Deftones. I just can't support someone like this.



Like I said, at least he isn't saying dumb racist or misogynist shit, so I don't feel like I need to stop listening to them. In this case I can separate the artist from the art.


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## gunch (Nov 14, 2020)

Kaura said:


> He can say whatever he wants but in the end it's the music that speaks. I mean, I still dig RATM even though I can't agree with Tom Morello's political views at all.


Are you Paul Ryan?


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## Demiurge (Nov 14, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> I should specify: I don't idolize Steph or think he's a personal hero or anything like that, more or less commenting on the fact that we have no idea what goes through peoples' heads when we only see one side of them. It's like when you only see an actor playing certain roles, you get a picture in your head of who they might be, and then you see them in interviews and they're totally different.



Yeah, that's fair. When it comes to art or something that's supposed to 'move you', there's an idealization that the artist's work comes from some kind of deep inspiration, intellect or verve. Probably more often than not, though, some dolt just found the right notes to hit.


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## Kaura (Nov 14, 2020)

gunch said:


> Are you Paul Ryan?



I have no idea who what is.


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## Werecow (Nov 14, 2020)

Demiurge said:


> Probably more often than not, though, some dolt just found the right notes to hit.



That's definitely the case here 

It's the same thing when you see people idolising sport stars in the same way. Just because they can kick/throw/hit some sort of leather sphere, don't automatically idolise and follow them morally, intellectually, and philosophically. The number of people who do that is insane.

Carpenter's views on viruses etc could very well actually kill someone down the line somewhere, after people take up his views and act on them. They're not a roll your eyes and say "Oh Stephen" kind of view, they're literally deadly seriously wrong.


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## nickgray (Nov 14, 2020)

_“It was…we’ve never actually learned…I’m grateful for COVID, for teaching me the actual germ theory, and that is the virus is something the body creates,”
_
Actual germ theory. Amazing. Oh well, those pickup configurations always looked suspicious to me.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Nov 14, 2020)

I’m sure that drinking the bong water has affects far more harmful than the habit that precedes it...


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## gnoll (Nov 14, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> I should specify: I don't idolize Steph or think he's a personal hero or anything like that, more or less commenting on the fact that we have no idea what goes through peoples' heads when we only see one side of them. It's like when you only see an actor playing certain roles, you get a picture in your head of who they might be, and then you see them in interviews and they're totally different.
> 
> Steph's pants-on-head-stupid ideas don't affect my life at all, it's just every now and then when I'm listening to Deftones I'll have a laugh and shake my head.
> 
> ...



Yeah sorry, my post was not really even directed at you, it was more general thoughts that got triggered when I read the term "heroes". I agree with what you're saying!


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Nov 14, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> i mean anyone that likes this pickup configuration is clearly a dumbass:


Good call.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 14, 2020)

The flat earth stuff is whatever. 

The anti-vaccine/COVID stuff is eeeeeewww. Fuuuuuck him.


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## akinari (Nov 14, 2020)

Cool, let's make sure we talk about how cool and smart we are for a while.


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## aesthyrian (Nov 14, 2020)

I dunno about you guys... but I consume entirely way too much THC myself and I don't think the earth is flat. The guy is just a moron.


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## mpexus (Nov 14, 2020)

akinari said:


> Cool, let's make sure we talk about how cool and smart we are for a while.



Acknowledging that Earth is not Flat doesn't make you Smart. Same that saying the Wind exists even though you can see it, also doesn't make you smart, but it would make super super SUPER Stupid saying it doesn't exist because you cant see it.


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## efiltsohg (Nov 14, 2020)

If you're looking at celebrities for any kind of advice or guidance then you're as dumb as they are


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## Demiurge (Nov 14, 2020)

akinari said:


> Cool, let's make sure we talk about how cool and smart we are for a while.



Let he who is without derp cast the first stone.


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## MFB (Nov 14, 2020)

I've only known two Deftones songs in my life, and this makes it a lot easier to keep it that way


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## NorCal_Val (Nov 14, 2020)




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## eggy in a bready (Nov 14, 2020)

anyone who's watched steph interviews before shouldn't be surprised that he's not exactly mensa material


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## lurè (Nov 14, 2020)

Actual pic of the Earth getting flat using Steph:


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## JD27 (Nov 14, 2020)

Does he sound like and idiot? Absolutely... But who gives a shit what he believes, it won’t affect my love for the band. I certainly don’t listen to them or any musician for their intellectual qualities. Probably shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that’s ever heard him speak, there’s baked and then there’s Stef.


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## InfinityCollision (Nov 14, 2020)

Always disappointing when someone recklessly spreads such ideas, especially when they have any kind of reach.



Kaura said:


> Now that would be funny coming from a half-Mexican.


One of the founders of a major US anti-immigrant organization with connections to white supremacy groups is a Hispanic woman. It happens more often than you'd think. There's a long history of immigrants and their descendants pulling the ladder up behind them.


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## efiltsohg (Nov 14, 2020)

^ almost all members of white supremacy groups in 2020 are feds so it doesn't really mean anything


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## TheInvisibleHand (Nov 14, 2020)

Big fan of his virus "theory". And if I am interpreting it correctly, this means that we can cure the 'Rona with some juice cleanses. The white yoga going waifs, WERE CORRECT, gluten is the root of all evil!!!

And here I was thinking that viruses were just the most basic forms of life indiscriminately infecting people to replicate without any moral implications. Fuck, so much to unlearn!

But really, these people aren't role models. They make good music, but often times the catalyst for such profound creativity is some really, really fucked up beliefs and mental states.


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## Bdtunn (Nov 14, 2020)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Big fan of his virus "theory". And if I am interpreting it correctly, this means that we can cure the 'Rona with some juice cleanses. The white yoga going waifs, WERE CORRECT, gluten is the root of all evil!!!
> 
> And here I was thinking that viruses were just the most basic forms of life indiscriminately infecting people to replicate without any moral implications. Fuck, so much to unlearn!
> 
> But really, these people aren't role models. They make good music, but often times the catalyst for such profound creativity is some really, really fucked up beliefs and mental states.



wait slow dowN there to some of us (Me) gluten is the root of all evil haha


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## Mathemagician (Nov 14, 2020)

Interviewers are looking for questions that haven’t been asked a million times to fill word count. 

Like dude doesn’t read this forum, he’s not hearing you. And most people dig into their beliefs when told they are wrong. 

He’s wrong on all counts, you know it, I know it, everybody knows it.


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## bostjan (Nov 14, 2020)

Yeah, seems like maybe he's daft, but probably playing it up for the interview.

Next up, Munky and Head explain their take on Quantum Electrodynamics on Discovery at 10.


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## InfinityCollision (Nov 14, 2020)

This is from a podcast for conspiracy theories. Not a random soundbite out of a music journo interview or whatever. Don't see reason to give him any benefit of the doubt here, especially not when he's spouting antivax and covid denial nonsense. That's just irresponsible, both on his part and to downplay after the fact.


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## thebeesknees22 (Nov 14, 2020)

I've been a huge massive deftones fan since I was in high school. They're easily my most favorite band ever... and for as long as I can remember Stephen has been...interesting..

As others have said, if you've ever heard him in an interview you would not be surprised. He fried his brain on God knows what a looong time ago.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 14, 2020)

InfinityCollision said:


> This is from a podcast for conspiracy theories. Not a random soundbite out of a music journo interview or whatever. Don't see reason to give him any benefit of the doubt here, especially not when he's spouting antivax and covid denial nonsense. That's just irresponsible, both on his part and to downplay after the fact.



Yeah, giving a platform to any of that shit period is bad. Also just being on a conspiracy theory podcast in general is fucking dumb.


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## MFB (Nov 14, 2020)

The only good conspiracy theory podcasts are ones that acknowledge the bonkers nature of what they're discussing, and don't take it too seriously; but I say that as a day one listener of The Boogie Monster, which is two comedians talking about cryptids and conspiracies, so I'm probably bias


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## Wildebeest (Nov 14, 2020)

edit: staying out of this lol


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## BlackMastodon (Nov 14, 2020)

Over under on Chino coming out as believing in QAnon?


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 14, 2020)

Not nearly the dumbest or most dangerous celebrity.


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## broj15 (Nov 14, 2020)

Yeah the way I see it, if someone is dumb enough to think the Earth's flat, vaccines don't work and covid isn't real then they probably hold a bunch of other poorly founded beliefs that also make them look like a dumbass.

Also as an avid consumer of weed and a former avid consumer of literally every other drug who DOES believe in science Im just shaking my head at all y'all trynna write this off/down play it/trivialize it by saying "lol Steph somk to much o da reefer lmao" just cuz you fuck with his band that hasn't been good in over a decade.

GlassJaw did it better.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 14, 2020)

InfinityCollision said:


> Always disappointing when someone recklessly spreads such ideas, especially when they have any kind of reach.
> 
> 
> One of the founders of a major US anti-immigrant organization with connections to white supremacy groups is a Hispanic woman. It happens more often than you'd think. There's a long history of immigrants and their descendants pulling the ladder up behind them.


also the current proud boys leader, Enrique Tarrio, is cuban


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> also the current proud boys leader, Enrique Tarrio, is cuban



Also John Cruz did some dumb shit. 

I’m inclined to think that’s one Cubans identify as white now.


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## chipchappy (Nov 15, 2020)

Steph has always seemed kinda slow haha. Not shocked he's a dumb guy, never really struck me as a thinker. 

Even if its a troll to get electric guitar obsessed nerds upset, are you guys really surprised by this?


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## feraledge (Nov 15, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The flat earth stuff is whatever


Hot take: is it though?

But people somehow equating a flat earther with RATM's politics is equally as insane. C'mon.
That said, I wonder if I can use his flat eartherness to somehow give me some of his 6 string Horizons. The carved top is just there to skew his perception, right? On the other hand, they're probably all covered in COVID...


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## akinari (Nov 15, 2020)

mpexus said:


> Acknowledging that Earth is not Flat doesn't make you Smart. Same that saying the Wind exists even though you can see it, also doesn't make you smart, but it would make super super SUPER Stupid saying it doesn't exist because you cant see it.



You're not wrong, but that wasn't exactly my point, either.


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## bracky (Nov 15, 2020)

He’s gotta be jerking our chains. Lol


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## oldbulllee (Nov 15, 2020)

i grew up on science fiction, therefore, it kind of shaped my outlook on the human potential. so, i am thoroughly disappointed with humanity, at least since 2000. stupidity.
such a waste.


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## USMarine75 (Nov 15, 2020)

It's ok. 

I hear Neil deGrasse Tyson sucks at djent.


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## PatientMental76 (Nov 15, 2020)

Listen to his riffs the past 15 years, speaks volumes


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> also the current proud boys leader, Enrique Tarrio, is cuban



Apparently he got kicked out recently. 


feraledge said:


> Hot take: is it though?



Compared to the other stuff he was apparently spewing, it's harmless.


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## possumkiller (Nov 15, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> It's ok.
> 
> I hear Neil deGrasse Tyson sucks at djent.


Has he even attempted to dgent though?


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## NorCal_Val (Nov 15, 2020)

If you fly in a plane at 35,000’+, look out the window during daylight, you can see the curvature of the earth. I laugh when I read about people who believe in the “flat earth” fallacy.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 15, 2020)

NorCal_Val said:


> If you fly in a plane at 35,000’+, look out the window during daylight, you can see the curvature of the earth. I laugh when I read about people who believe in the “flat earth” fallacy.



I mean...we have satellites in space. and the moon and the sun are circles. 

so who the hell knows.


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## BlackMastodon (Nov 15, 2020)

NorCal_Val said:


> If you fly in a plane at 35,000’+, look out the window during daylight, you can see the curvature of the earth. I laugh when I read about people who believe in the “flat earth” fallacy.


No no, see, the windows, on the plane, are round, right? 
So, like, if you were OUTSIDE of the plane, flying at 35k feet at 700 mph, you'd see the earth was flat! 
Nobody can do that, though, do that's why we're right, man! 
THEY just want you to see everything through those round windows. 
THAT'S how they get you. 
Can't believe everything you read on the internet! 
Or see! 
I'm not mad! 
I'm actually laughing!


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## feraledge (Nov 15, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Apparently he got kicked out recently.


This is not true at all. 
This was from yesterday after the Proud Boys stabbed three people in DC. 
Not wanting to further derail the thread, but your intel is wrong.


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## Rosal76 (Nov 15, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean...we have satellites in space. and the moon and the sun are circles.
> 
> so who the hell knows.



You have to remember, though, guys like Stephen C. probably don't think humans have launched satellites into space since 1957. It's already a uphill battle when it comes to debates with his thinking.

And don't get me wrong. I mean, I believe in Bigfoot, ghosts and the Loch Ness monster so I'm open to conspiracy theories but I just need to see solid proof of the flat earth theory.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 15, 2020)

Rosal76 said:


> You have to remember, though, guys like Stephen C. probably don't think humans have launched satellites into space since 1957. It's already a uphill battle when it comes to debates with his thinking.



how do these people think shit like mobile phones work.


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## spicevam (Nov 15, 2020)

no wonder considering his love for weed and the fact that he's probably got thc permanently attached to his cannabinoid receptors at this point


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## Rosal76 (Nov 15, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> how do these people think shit like mobile phones work.



They probably have a strange/theory about that, too. I will give credit to conspiracy theorists in that they do have a answer/explanations to everything. Their answers/explanations may be scientifically false and/or laughable but they do come to the debate table with their paperwork.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 15, 2020)

broj15 said:


> Also as an avid consumer of weed and a former avid consumer of literally every other drug who DOES believe in science Im just shaking my head at all y'all trynna write this off/down play it/trivialize it by saying "lol Steph somk to much o da reefer lmao".



Yeah, when did this place become TGP.


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## Chokey Chicken (Nov 15, 2020)

My question is who benefits from keeping a flat earth a secret? Like, what would change if tomorrow it just came out that the earth really was just a disc flying through space? Flat or not, life goes on and nothing changes except the fact that we would then know the earth is flat. Big whoop.


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## Alex79 (Nov 15, 2020)

thebeesknees22 said:


> I've been a huge massive deftones fan since I was in high school. They're easily my most favorite band ever... and for as long as I can remember Stephen has been...interesting..
> 
> As others have said, if you've ever heard him in an interview you would not be surprised. He fried his brain on God knows what a looong time ago.



So true, I remember reading interviews of him on his guitar stuff and thinking WTF???
Dude has no idea what he’s doing, his guitar tech must be taking care of everything for him.


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## Demiurge (Nov 15, 2020)

Chokey Chicken said:


> My question is who benefits from keeping a flat earth a secret? Like, what would change if tomorrow it just came out that the earth really was just a disc flying through space? Flat or not, life goes on and nothing changes except the fact that we would then know the earth is flat. Big whoop.



Most conspiracy theories worth their salt lean heavily on the conspirator drawing some sort of lurid benefit from the whole deal. Here, I think it's something-something-Scientists are evil and don't want to be wrong? Maybe because it would re-establish geocentrism and, by extension, support Intelligent Design?


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## broj15 (Nov 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> also the current proud boys leader, Enrique Tarrio, is cuban


Strangely enough I have come across more than a fair few of latinx ppl who are heavy into nat soc ideologies. Doesn't make much sense to me but anyone who advocates for an ethnostate gets a big no from me regardless of ethnicity.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 15, 2020)

broj15 said:


> Strangely enough I have come across more than a fair few of latinx ppl who are heavy into nat soc ideologies. Doesn't make much sense to me but anyone who advocates for an ethnostate gets a big no from me regardless of ethnicity.


doesn't surprise me. central and south america also have long histories of colonization and indigenous genocide


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## Avedas (Nov 15, 2020)

broj15 said:


> Also as an avid consumer of weed and a former avid consumer of literally every other drug who DOES believe in science Im just shaking my head at all y'all trynna write this off/down play it/trivialize it by saying "lol Steph somk to much o da reefer lmao" just cuz you fuck with his band that hasn't been good in over a decade.


Here I thought most people spent a significant portion of their college years high as a kite. It's not very difficult to function on weed lol. There's no excuse for being as dumb as an anti-vaxxer.


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## Joan Maal (Nov 16, 2020)

So Deftones has never done gigs in Australia ... that imaginary country in which all people are actors


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 16, 2020)

Joan Maal said:


> So Deftones has never done gigs in Australia ... that imaginary country in which all people are actors


didn't they do Big Day Out one year?


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## Richter (Nov 16, 2020)

And then there's Tosin just Tosing 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BYEoIKRAdGL


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## Merrekof (Nov 16, 2020)

Richter said:


> And then there's Tosin just Tosing
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BYEoIKRAdGL


Haha wut, Tosin Abasi as well??


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## Duraesu (Nov 16, 2020)

I enjoy a good plausible conspiracy theory to be honest but not this nonsense crap... I mean, one thing is to disagree over subjective stuff, another is to deny hard facts. 

He should stick to music talk, maybe.


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## Spicypickles (Nov 16, 2020)

I don’t think he knows much about music either


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## Werecow (Nov 16, 2020)

He's issued a statement in which he tries to string some words together into cohesive sentences and demonstrates how his mind works, or indeed how it doesn't really work 

https://metalinjection.net/shocking...ontroversial-flat-earth-anti-vaccine-comments

Everything he said was about love apparently. Even the stuff that would kill people if he or others acted upon it.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Nov 16, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> i mean anyone that likes this pickup configuration is clearly a dumbass:


Good one!


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Nov 16, 2020)

Edge of the Earth has a brand new meaning now


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## GunpointMetal (Nov 16, 2020)

Well, that explains the absolute mediocrity of the last couple albums. This is a good lesson on why you shouldn't start every day with a 3g shatter dab if you're already kind of dumb.


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## Frostbite (Nov 16, 2020)

GunpointMetal said:


> Well, that explains the absolute mediocrity of the last couple albums. This is a good lesson on why you shouldn't start every day with a 3g shatter dab if you're already kind of dumb.


That's a loooooot lmao


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## Cyanide_Anima (Nov 16, 2020)

The guy can barely play his instrument. Doesn't nearly his entire catalogue of riffs contain maybe 9 frets (1,2,3,4,5,7,8,10,12th frets only) 4 strings, power chords, and octaves? Can barely keep up a conversation (his interviews are super spacey). Definitely dependent on weed. Has probably never read a book that wasn't mostly pictures. Is anyone surprised he's a moron? The first few Deftones records are amazing but he's also probably the least 'important' part of that band's sound. Nearly anyone who's played metal for a few months could replace him. That band is mostly about the drums, bass, synths, and most importantly Chino's vocals.


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## GunpointMetal (Nov 16, 2020)

Cyanide_Anima said:


> but he's also probably the least 'important' part of that band's sound. Nearly anyone who's played metal for a few months could replace him. That band is mostly about the drums, bass, synths, and most importantly Chino's vocals.


 I'd agree up till this. The reason the last handful of records have been super mega blah is because Chino has been writing more guitar stuff around what he wants to "sing" (I love Chino, but his voice unique, not good). The last one was so vocal-oriented it's not even a fun listen.


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## Pietjepieter (Nov 16, 2020)

Zappa has some advise for FlatSteph...

Shut Up 'N Play Yer Guitar!


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## Cyanide_Anima (Nov 16, 2020)

GunpointMetal said:


> I'd agree up till this. The reason the last handful of records have been super mega blah is because Chino has been writing more guitar stuff around what he wants to "sing" (I love Chino, but his voice unique, not good). The last one was so vocal-oriented it's not even a fun listen.



This is true. But it's also quite easy to emulate Steph's playing style since there is only a few simplistic tropes he uses to write riffs. I doubt he's ever really tried to improve as a player in the last 15 or 20 years. There's 10K kids on youtube who could hop right in and not too many people would notice he was replaced. I'm not saying that to talk shit about him, he is just not a super interesting riffer. Chino's unique vocals have always what drawn me to the band. He's often off key, dynamically out of control, or has a meandering melody but that is kind of what sets the band apart because he makes all those flaws in his voice work with the music in just the right way. Replace Chino with someone else and that band would have been forgotten long ago. Replace Steph with someone who's equally as good as their drummer and it would be an instant improvement imo.

But anyways, yeah the Earth is most definitely not flat. I hope he never has kids. I have a friend who has a kid and is also a flat earther and he teaches his kid that the earth is flat, that science is a lie, and that the bible is the sole source of truth. All that shit should count as child abuse. Conspiratards are a special breed of delusional.


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## bostjan (Nov 16, 2020)

We all have said something stupid at some point, I assume. Maybe just ignore it unless he doubles down or does something truly horrific.

And I'm not even a fan of his riffs.  I just think cancel culture is usually dumb.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 16, 2020)

bostjan said:


> We all have said something stupid at some point, I assume. Maybe just ignore it unless he doubles down or does something truly horrific.
> 
> And I'm not even a fan of his riffs.  I just think cancel culture is usually dumb.



^ It always amuses me that the most active threads are always the drama ones unrelated to music.

Who gives a shit, a lot of people are flat earthers and anti-vaxxers now. Not much we can do about it after it's festered for this long, and you're definitely not changing their minds. I've spent some time trying to do that myself 

Learn to separate the art from the artist people, seriously.


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## Crash Dandicoot (Nov 16, 2020)

Striking while the iron is hot, it seems.


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## gunshow86de (Nov 16, 2020)




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## AxeHappy (Nov 16, 2020)

A lot of the people who got deep into the flat earth nonsense got pretty hard into Qanon stuff once Flat Earth got so savagely debunked by everyone that it was embarrassing to be associated with it anymore. 

The Folding Ideas channel on YouTube has a good video essay on it. 

Turns out letting ideas that actively require people to not think critical and embrace painfully and obviously false concepts fester and grow is bad for society as a whole.


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## USMarine75 (Nov 17, 2020)

Deftones songs be like...

01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100101 01100001 01110010 01110100 01101000 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100110 01101100 01100001 01110100


----------



## Joan Maal (Nov 17, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100101 01100001 01110010 01110100 01101000 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100110 01101100 01100001 01110100



01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01110011 01110101 01110010 01100101


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Nov 17, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Deftones songs be like...
> 
> 01110100 01101000 01100101 00100000 01100101 01100001 01110010 01110100 01101000 00100000 01101001 01110011 00100000 01100110 01101100 01100001 01110100


----------



## lurè (Nov 18, 2020)

There must be a correlation between his QI and his pickup configuration,

I'd rather believe the earth is flat than his pickups config makes sense.


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## Spectre 1 (Nov 18, 2020)

News just in, guitarist from rock band doesn't agree with you.

Here's Tom with the weather.


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## JSanta (Nov 18, 2020)

Spectre 1 said:


> News just in, guitarist from rock band doesn't agree with you.
> 
> Here's Tom with the weather.



There's a difference between an opinion and anti-intellectualism. We can disagree on lots of things, but tested scientific fact is not one of them.


----------



## ElRay (Nov 18, 2020)

Spectre 1 said:


> News just in, guitarist from rock band doesn't agree with you.
> 
> Here's Tom with the weather.


“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” - Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY)

Being an arrogantly ignorant health risk is completely different than having a different educated opinion.


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## StevenC (Nov 18, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> i mean anyone that likes this pickup configuration is clearly a dumbass:


This is some pretty clear evidence for spontaneous generation, if you ask me.


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## vilk (Nov 18, 2020)

Maybe this is a little bit of my own conspiracy theory but I think Flat Earthers don't even really believe themselves, they are just spreading the meme, so to speak.

An imperfect analogy would be Ouija board. Everyone knows that someone is moving the cursor. In the case that you're playing Ouija with me, I'm the one moving it. I say, "I'm not moving it! I'm not moving it!", but actually I am 100% moving it. That's how the game works. If at least one person isn't moving the Ouija cursor, the whole thing isn't gonna work.


Yes, there are probably a lot of people with learning disabilities, low IQ, etc. that are drawn to Flat Earth and "truly believe" it, but the majority, at least half, are just fucking with you. At a different time in history and culture, I'd probably have fun being in on this Flat Earth meme, but unfortunately it's gotten mixed up with American Conservatism's regressivist anti-intellect agenda.


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## Demiurge (Nov 18, 2020)

^This very well might be true. At the same time, though, if nobody can tell whether you're an idiot or pretending to be one, the distinction doesn't matter much.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Nov 18, 2020)

vilk said:


> Maybe this is a little bit of my own conspiracy theory but I think Flat Earthers don't even really believe themselves, they are just spreading the meme, so to speak.
> 
> An imperfect analogy would be Ouija board. Everyone knows that someone is moving the cursor. In the case that you're playing Ouija with me, I'm the one moving it. I say, "I'm not moving it! I'm not moving it!", but actually I am 100% moving it. That's how the game works. If at least one person isn't moving the Ouija cursor, the whole thing isn't gonna work.
> 
> ...


I’m never playing Ouija board with you.


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## GunpointMetal (Nov 18, 2020)

vilk said:


> Maybe this is a little bit of my own conspiracy theory but I think Flat Earthers don't even really believe themselves, they are just spreading the meme, so to speak.


 When it first started getting attention with a bunch of celebrities endorsing I figured it was some sort requirement that they embarrass themselves publicly to get invited to some secret club. Like "If you wanna party at Secret Island, you have to publicly admit you believe Flat Earth Theory."


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 18, 2020)

GunpointMetal said:


> When it first started getting attention with a bunch of celebrities endorsing I figured it was some sort requirement that they embarrass themselves publicly to get invited to some secret club. Like "If you wanna party at Secret Island, you have to publicly admit you believe Flat Earth Theory."


they're getting paid. look at how many celebrities are "scientologists." you don't publicly endorse that shit without a little cash in the mix


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## broj15 (Nov 18, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> they're getting paid. look at how many celebrities are "scientologists." you don't publicly endorse that shit without a little cash in the mix


I like to imagine that all big Hollywood actors act just like the drama club kids I went to highschool with when all the cameras are off. Ya know, the kids that'd bark at you in the hallway, wear some Ren fair shit to school etc.. by that logic I could see Scientology just being a really ridiculous bit that they're all overly committed to.

Edit: I also bought the VHS companion tape to the book of dianetics at a thrift store a couple years ago and let me tell ya..... There's some interesting takes on there . I bought mostly because it's fun to put it on mute/low volume and leave it on in the background at parties and wait and see how long it takes for someone to start asking questions.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 18, 2020)

broj15 said:


> I like to imagine that all big Hollywood actors act just like the drama club kids I went to highschool with when all the cameras are off. Ya know, the kids that'd bark at you in the hallway, wear some Ren fair shit to school etc.. by that logic I could see Scientology just being a really ridiculous bit that they're all overly committed to.
> 
> Edit: I also bought the VHS companion tape to the book of dianetics at a thrift store a couple years ago and let me tell ya..... There's some interesting takes on there . I bought mostly because it's fun to put it on mute/low volume and leave it on in the background at parties and wait and see how long it takes for someone to start asking questions.


hahahaha i'm absolutely stealing that idea


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 18, 2020)

might have to throw on the heaven's gate tapes as well


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## Frostbite (Nov 18, 2020)

ElRay said:


> “Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” - Daniel Patrick Moynihan (D-NY)
> 
> Being an arrogantly ignorant health risk is completely different than having a different educated opinion.


Absolutely this. It angers me to no end that people claim I have to respect everyone's opinion. Fuck that, no I don't. If you opinion is factually wrong and that's provable, that's not an opinion. And even if it was an opinion some how, why the fuck do I have to respect it? I don't have to do shit. I'll think someone is stupid for their opinion, depending on the context, and I have zero reason to think otherwise. That's not to say I think everyone who has a different opinion then me is stupid or wrong, far from it. But I don't have to respect anything /rant lmao


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## BlackMastodon (Nov 18, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> they're getting paid. look at how many celebrities are "scientologists." you don't publicly endorse that shit without a little cash in the mix


I'm sure the high level folks get looked after in Hollywood but they are absolutely paying hundreds of thousands to Scientology to ascend the ranks or whatever the fuck.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 18, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> I'm sure the high level folks get looked after in Hollywood but they are absolutely paying hundreds of thousands to Scientology to ascend the ranks or whatever the fuck.


the lower rank forsure does. either that or they're terrified of leaving, lest they want their career destroyed

travolta and cruise are treated like gods, no doubt


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## works0fheart (Nov 19, 2020)

Joan Maal said:


> 01100110 01101111 01110010 00100000 01110011 01110101 01110010 01100101



Leave Meshuggah out of this.


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## possumkiller (Nov 19, 2020)

vilk said:


> Maybe this is a little bit of my own conspiracy theory but I think Flat Earthers don't even really believe themselves, they are just spreading the meme, so to speak.
> 
> An imperfect analogy would be Ouija board. Everyone knows that someone is moving the cursor. In the case that you're playing Ouija with me, I'm the one moving it. I say, "I'm not moving it! I'm not moving it!", but actually I am 100% moving it. That's how the game works. If at least one person isn't moving the Ouija cursor, the whole thing isn't gonna work.
> 
> ...


This is exactly what I used to believe. Nobody could actually be that fucking stupid. But then covid happened. Then the election happened. It turns out people really are that fucking stupid. You think that you are of average intelligence among a population that is more or less equal. It's not really true. There are gigantic groups of drooling morons in the population. The scary thing is a lot of them get into positions of power and celebrity. Your intelligence is more rare than you think.


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## possumkiller (Nov 19, 2020)

Also, remember that for there to be an "average" intelligence, there has to be a lot of people below average. Since I have went back to school, I have seen what sort of work gets passing grades. As are supposed to be for exceptional work. Bs are supposed to be above average. C is average. D is below average and F is complete failure to either comprehend the subject or do the task. The absolute half-assed garbage I have read that looks like it was written by a third grader that gets a passing grade from college tells me people in the general population are much more stupid than you think.


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## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> This is exactly what I used to believe. Nobody could actually be that fucking stupid. But then covid happened. Then the election happened. It turns out people really are that fucking stupid. You think that you are of average intelligence among a population that is more or less equal. It's not really true. There are gigantic groups of drooling morons in the population. The scary thing is a lot of them get into positions of power and celebrity. Your intelligence is more rare than you think.



I think we shouldn't overestimate our own intelligence, but we should also not assume that other people are like us, be that in intelligence, knowledge or world views.

Intelligence as scored by a test follows a normal distribution as illustrated by a bell curve. Some people are really smart, some really dumb, and most kind of in the middle. If a person is unusually smart he might assume that most other people are that smart too. And they're not.

But I think it's a trap to assume that a belief or lack of belief in certain things is directly linked to intelligence. If people stop believing in, trusting or understanding science, statistics and such things, that doesn't necessarily mean that people are becoming dumber. There can be many reasons for it, and complex ones at that.


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## possumkiller (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> If people stop believing in, trusting or understanding science, statistics and such things, that doesn't necessarily mean that people are becoming dumber. There can be many reasons for it, and complex ones at that.


Are these reasons mind-altering chemical reactions in the brain brought about by ingesting chemicals for recreational or reality-escaping purposes?

EDIT: Or are you suggesting that flat earthers, antivaxxers, and trump supporters are operating on some higher dimension that the rest of us are not intelligent enough to understand? Because after the election, I did consider that. I always assumed myself to be of average intelligence but after seeing how many people came out to vote for trump, I wondered for a few seconds if maybe it was me that was the drooling idiot and all these millions of hardcore right wing extremists that had some sort of enlightenment that I was missing.


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## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Are these reasons mind-altering chemical reactions in the brain brought about by ingesting chemicals for recreational or reality-escaping purposes?



Lol, I was probably thinking more of social than physiological stuff. But hey, who knows.


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## akinari (Nov 19, 2020)




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## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> EDIT: Or are you suggesting that flat earthers, antivaxxers, and trump supporters are operating on some higher dimension that the rest of us are not intelligent enough to understand? Because after the election, I did consider that. I always assumed myself to be of average intelligence but after seeing how many people came out to vote for trump, I wondered for a few seconds if maybe it was me that was the drooling idiot and all these millions of hardcore right wing extremists that had some sort of enlightenment that I was missing.



No I wasn't suggesting that...

Am I being way too unclear here or something?

I don't think it's very constructive to go "ooohhhh my gooood, this guy is so duuumb, I caaan't belieeeeve it" when someone doesn't agree or has a different belief. When people believe different things, it's not necessarily because one side is intelligent and one isn't.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> No I wasn't suggesting that...
> 
> Am I being way too unclear here or something?
> 
> I don't think it's very constructive to go "ooohhhh my gooood, this guy is so duuumb, I caaan't belieeeeve it" when someone doesn't agree or has a different belief. When people believe different things, it's not necessarily because one side is intelligent and one isn't.



I'm just going to go ahead and say if you believe the earth is flat you are a fucking idiot.


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## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm just going to go ahead and say if you believe the earth is flat you are a fucking idiot.



Fine, but what's that gonna help?


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Fine, but what's that gonna help?



you should feel bad that you're dumb. 

that helps me.


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## possumkiller (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> No I wasn't suggesting that...
> 
> Am I being way too unclear here or something?
> 
> I don't think it's very constructive to go "ooohhhh my gooood, this guy is so duuumb, I caaan't belieeeeve it" when someone doesn't agree or has a different belief. When people believe different things, it's not necessarily because one side is intelligent and one isn't.


But some things actually require a lower level of intelligence as a prerequisite for believing.


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## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> But some things actually require a lower level of intelligence as a prerequisite for believing.



Like what and why?

Some things seem absolutely insane to me, but yet I know that some people who are really smart believe in them. Weird but oh well I guess.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Like what and why?
> 
> Some things seem absolutely insane to me, but yet I know that some people who are really smart believe in them. Weird but oh well I guess.



like.....

leaving us hanging here buddy.


----------



## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> like.....
> 
> leaving us hanging here buddy.



Fine, like religion. Surprise? It certainly seems crazy to me, but a lot of people believe in it, including smart people.

Compared to religion, flat earth seems kinda reasonable.


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## efiltsohg (Nov 19, 2020)

101 IQ redditors in this thread imagining they are massively smarter than the average pop


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## TedEH (Nov 19, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Nobody could actually be that fucking stupid.[...and all the conversation after this...]



I have two thoughts:
One is that I've always sort of believed that people, in general, are not very bright. And I don't mean that to say I think I'm smarter that anyone else (because I don't), or that I've got people figured out, 'cause I acknowledge that I can be dumb as a brick at times too. Nobody has the capacity to be knowledgeable about everything all at once. Even the smartest people among us are stupid in certain contexts. I met someone a while ago who kept bragging about being a member of Mensa, but who had no real-life skills and did dumb things pretty constantly. Great, you can pass tests and are probably pretty good at math and memorization, but you can't figure out a concept like comparison shopping for some reason. I know lots of very smart tech-y people through work who all have these occasional holes in their understanding of things that you would think fall into their domain, but somehow they just missed it. 

My second thought is that I think we all forget that free and open access to general knowledge is relatively new, and still something that the world is adjusting to. Go back 100 years and you basically didn't know anything unless it was told to you or you read about it. Now, you can google anything. That's unprecedented. I think this ubiquitous access to information (and I'll distinguish between information and "truth" here) makes people feel both like they are smarter than they really are, but also grants the illusion that people in general know more than they really do.


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## gnoll (Nov 19, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Now, you can google anything. That's unprecedented. I think this ubiquitous access to information (and I'll distinguish between information and "truth" here) makes people feel both like they are smarter than they really are, but also grants the illusion that people in general know more than they really do.



I sometimes think it's a shame that the scientific world is so disconnected from the "real world". Scientific articles are behind a big paywall and you need a university account to access a lot of it. And they're not written with readers outside that field in mind anyway. As a normal person, it can be very hard to know where to get good information. I don't recall school teaching me much in the ways of evaluating information, statistics, etc. Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple years, but I don't know. I guess it can differ depending on where you live also.


----------



## Werecow (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> I sometimes think it's a shame that the scientific world is so disconnected from the "real world". Scientific articles are behind a big paywall and you need a university account to access a lot of it. And they're not written with readers outside that field in mind anyway. As a normal person, it can be very hard to know where to get good information. I don't recall school teaching me much in the ways of evaluating information, statistics, etc. Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple years, but I don't know. I guess it can differ depending on where you live also.



There are lots of general science news sites that summarize those articles, and quite a few youtube channels that spell them out even more clearly. This is one of my favourites https://phys.org/

The PBS family of youtube channels are fantastic as well. Each of them cover a different area of the sciences.


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## possumkiller (Nov 19, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Fine, like religion. Surprise? It certainly seems crazy to me, but a lot of people believe in it, including smart people.
> 
> Compared to religion, flat earth seems kinda reasonable.





efiltsohg said:


> 101 IQ redditors in this thread imagining they are massively smarter than the average pop





TedEH said:


> I have two thoughts:
> One is that I've always sort of believed that people, in general, are not very bright. And I don't mean that to say I think I'm smarter that anyone else (because I don't), or that I've got people figured out, 'cause I acknowledge that I can be dumb as a brick at times too. Nobody has the capacity to be knowledgeable about everything all at once. Even the smartest people among us are stupid in certain contexts. I met someone a while ago who kept bragging about being a member of Mensa, but who had no real-life skills and did dumb things pretty constantly. Great, you can pass tests and are probably pretty good at math and memorization, but you can't figure out a concept like comparison shopping for some reason. I know lots of very smart tech-y people through work who all have these occasional holes in their understanding of things that you would think fall into their domain, but somehow they just missed it.
> 
> My second thought is that I think we all forget that free and open access to general knowledge is relatively new, and still something that the world is adjusting to. Go back 100 years and you basically didn't know anything unless it was told to you or you read about it. Now, you can google anything. That's unprecedented. I think this ubiquitous access to information (and I'll distinguish between information and "truth" here) makes people feel both like they are smarter than they really are, but also grants the illusion that people in general know more than they really do.



Idk. If we can't agree that people who genuinely believe the planet is a flat disc are fucking idiots, I don't think there is really anything more to add.


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## TedEH (Nov 19, 2020)

I'm not disagreeing that thinking the earth is flat is dumb. I'm just adding in that I think we have too-high expectations for people _not _to be dumb.


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## TedEH (Nov 19, 2020)

Werecow said:


> quite a few youtube channels that spell them out


I don't think I really trust YouTube in general as a source to interpret scientific writing.


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## possumkiller (Nov 19, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I'm not disagreeing that thinking the earth is flat is dumb. I'm just adding in that I think we have too-high expectations for people _not _to be dumb.


Yes, that is what I was saying before. I always thought that people were intelligent. They went to the freakin moon. They were doing all kinds of insane maths to get old-school tech to work before the computer age. I was wrong. People are morons.


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## Werecow (Nov 19, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I don't think I really trust YouTube in general as a source to interpret scientific writing.



Yeh i guess just saying that by itself leaves it open to interpretation to someone who already has a leaning towards fake science. There are a lot of genuine scientific studios on youtube though.

I think the deeper failing in some societies is a failure to teach critical thinking and logical thinking at lower ages in school.


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## Demiurge (Nov 19, 2020)

I think the problem is that, frankly, school oftentimes sucks, and that creates an adversarial relationship with learning for a lot of people. Subjects like science can be fascinating, but I can count on one elbow the number of teachers who tried to present it that way in my experience.

Then you have these conspiracy theories and pseudo-sciences that have a very low barrier for entry with the appeal of thumbing their noses at those egghead educated people. The initiated is flattered into belief with the line of thinking: _hey, you didn't want to learn about in school because you knew deep down it was all bullshit anyway, right?_


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## Flappydoodle (Nov 20, 2020)

gnoll said:


> I sometimes think it's a shame that the scientific world is so disconnected from the "real world". Scientific articles are behind a big paywall and you need a university account to access a lot of it. And they're not written with readers outside that field in mind anyway. As a normal person, it can be very hard to know where to get good information. I don't recall school teaching me much in the ways of evaluating information, statistics, etc. Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple years, but I don't know. I guess it can differ depending on where you live also.



Science is also a large percentage of total bullshit. Let’s be really honest. 

It’s hard to do a perfect study, even with the best intentions. Add on top of that the funding limitations, the need to publish, the need for positive results, the inherent variability in your subjects, the subjects who lie and deviate from the plan, and all the potentials for biases and conflicts of interest to sneak in. No wonder that a massive amount of basic science papers simply can’t be replicated by others. Fields of psychology, sports science etc are even worse. 

It irritates me when people hold up ‘science’ as some sort of all-knowing, always-correct, always-truthful thing. Science is a process and it’s very flawed and often totally wrong when you look at it day to day. This is especially true when it comes to biological science. But eventually the truth comes out - usually years or decades later. 

It will shock many people how many things we take for granted that are not evidence based. Even something simple like should you fill a tooth with a small cavity. There’s no clear scientific evidence to support being more passive or being more aggressive with fillings. Same for many types of cancer screening (which people always think is inherently better to screen more and detect earlier), or aggressiveness of treatment (again, everybody wants to be aggressive as possible). 

This is a problem because when scientists or authority figures go on TV and use ‘science’ to persuade people, they damage the reputation. Look at Covid. First the chief scientists in the UK were saying ‘masks don’t prevent spread. Don’t buy them. Don’t use them’. Then later they made them compulsory. And now major controlled studies are finding that masks made no difference to rates of infection. So if you paid attention on a micro scale, you’re left distrusting ‘science’ for giving you total bullshit information. As a scientist myself, I can read between the lines here, but the average Joe without the training and insight is just going to distrust a bunch of white coat boffin idiots. 

Now apply the same to a vaccine. Of course we will be told it’s safe and effective once one is approved. But they won’t KNOW it until years later. Many vaccines in the past have passed Phase III trials, are then FDA-approved, but problems emerged later and they were subsequently withdrawn because of unforeseen problems. The Covid vaccine will be rushed through trials and approved by emergency authorisation without full FDA scrutiny. Plus the very obvious biases and conflicts which exist when everybody is desperately waiting for this vaccine. With likely trillions of dollars on the line, and geopolitical considerations, the urge to mislead your population is enormous. So anybody immediately parroting the vaccine is safe and effective is simply lying. The truth is that no obvious problems came up during the 3-6 month clinical trial. 

If you dare to point this out, those who worship the ‘religion of science’ will say you are anti-Vax or just stupid. I’m absolutely confident that we will make a safe and effective Covid vaccine at some point. But I definitely won’t trust government advisors, the drug companies or the scientists themselves as soon as the thing is released. This isn’t an anti-science viewpoint. It’s a recognition of the complex reality and the problems inherent to the scientific process.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Nov 20, 2020)

Werecow said:


> Yeh i guess just saying that by itself leaves it open to interpretation to someone who already has a leaning towards fake science. There are a lot of genuine scientific studios on youtube though.
> 
> I think the deeper failing in some societies is a failure to teach critical thinking and logical thinking at lower ages in school.



Even worse when people worship the religion of science as some infallible thing. 

And the constant misrepresentation of science in the media is even worse. I’ve actually experienced this first hand. I was interviewed after a major publication and saw myself misquoted a whole bunch. All the headlines: ‘scientists find chocolate is good for you’ etc. 

To me, I don’t think there is much of ‘fake science’. There’s obviously data fraud, con artists etc like Andrew Wakefield (MMR/autism guy), who knowingly lied. But if you take pretty much ANY viewpoint, you’ll likely find peer reviewed papers which can support it. 

Want to check whether curcumin (the stuff in turmeric) is some miracle molecule which cures ailments? There’s a bunch of studies that show it does. And there’s also a bunch which shows is does fuck all. Same for acupuncture. It has no logical (to me) basis for working, and there’s no proof that qi or pressure points or nodes etc exist in the human body. But you can easily find 20 papers which show it ‘works’. Some are even placebo controlled double blind trials. 

So if someone can present you 10 peer-reviewed references either way, how is an average person supposed to know what to believe? Even meta analyses are only as good as the data which goes into them. And the level of trust in official organisations and ‘experts’ is (rightly) at an all-time low. So yeah - you get some YouTube channel believing in acupuncture and showing you a shitload of published studies claiming it works... no amount of critical thinking training will prevent the average person from believing that. 

I literally am an expert in the biomedical sciences field. But even for me it’s often impossible to really identify what is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ outside of the very obvious.


----------



## Carl Kolchak (Nov 20, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Even worse when people worship the religion of science as some infallible thing.
> 
> And the constant misrepresentation of science in the media is even worse. I’ve actually experienced this first hand. I was interviewed after a major publication and saw myself misquoted a whole bunch. All the headlines: ‘scientists find chocolate is good for you’ etc.
> 
> ...


And when Science is "weaponized" in the service of a political ideology? Of course that could never happen here in our Democratic utopia. 

It always amazes me how fast these lemmings manage to pick up the Party line and parrot it the way they do. Maybe they're functioning on the same levels of schools of fish or migratory birds?


----------



## diagrammatiks (Nov 20, 2020)

Oh good the but science is sometimes wrong bullshit brigade finally showed up.

science is a process. It can be wrong. That's the whole damn point. You test shit. And if you the tests don't prove your point then you change your mind. 

Sometimes people fuck up royally. That's ok. because it's a process.

And because it's a process it can't be a religion. 

If 10 peer reviewed papers is all that's standing between you believing that the earth is round and vaccines actually work then the fucking problem isn't science.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 20, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> And when Science is "weaponized" in the service of a political ideology? Of course that could never happen here in our Democratic utopia.
> 
> It always amazes me how fast these lemmings manage to pick up the Party line and parrot it the way they do. Maybe they're functioning on the same levels of schools of fish or migratory birds?



r/selfawarewolves


----------



## gnoll (Nov 20, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Science is also a large percentage of total bullshit. Let’s be really honest.
> 
> It’s hard to do a perfect study, even with the best intentions. Add on top of that the funding limitations, the need to publish, the need for positive results, the inherent variability in your subjects, the subjects who lie and deviate from the plan, and all the potentials for biases and conflicts of interest to sneak in. No wonder that a massive amount of basic science papers simply can’t be replicated by others. Fields of psychology, sports science etc are even worse.
> 
> ...



Wow, that's long.

You'd think I said science was perfect. I went back and read my post and I didn't say that, did I?

You should think for yourself, that's great, but that doesn't mean that you should distrust everybody else.

Vaccines are never gonna be 100% safe, that's not the point. The point is to weigh risk vs. benefit. I think covid vaccines are gonna do a shitload of good for us. Of course, people have to take them for that to happen, though.


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## GunpointMetal (Nov 20, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Even worse when people worship the religion of science as some infallible thing.
> 
> And the constant misrepresentation of science in the media is even worse. I’ve actually experienced this first hand. I was interviewed after a major publication and saw myself misquoted a whole bunch. All the headlines: ‘scientists find chocolate is good for you’ etc.
> 
> ...


Homeopathy vs Whether or Not the World is Flat is not a great way to frame a "science ain't real smart all the time, either" argument.


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## TedEH (Nov 20, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> Oh good the but science is sometimes wrong bullshit brigade finally showed up.


Not to back up the "but science is wrong sometimes!" line of thinking, but I don't think anyone was really going down that path.

While I think a reasonable person understands that science is a process and isn't infallible (nor is it supposed to be), it doesn't change that there's groups of people out there who don't understand this and treat science like it's a source of truth.


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## Werecow (Nov 20, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Not to back up the "but science is wrong sometimes!" line of thinking, but I don't think anyone was really going down that path.
> 
> While I think a reasonable person understands that science is a process and isn't infallible (nor is it supposed to be), it doesn't change that there's groups of people out there who don't understand this and treat science like it's a source of truth.



Science is a source of truth, it's just that part of the scientific process is being proven or proving something wrong sometimes, and being willing to accept that and changing your mind when the new evidence comes to light. Science is the process of getting to truth in the end, no matter how long it takes.

The weird thing i don't understand is that some people will see a gap in what science hasn't proven yet, and take that as proof that their outlandish oogidy boogidy magic theory is automatically proven because of that. Some people are unwilling to simply classify something as just "we don't know that yet" it seems.
Then of course there is an even more extreme type of person like Carpenter that denies an object is a sphere despite undeniable evidence from a huge amount of sources.


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## TedEH (Nov 20, 2020)

Werecow said:


> Science is a source of truth


It's maybe just a semantic thing, but I find it's a phrasing to be careful with. Science is not the _source_ of truth. Something isn't true _because science says so_, it was already true, and science was just the tool we used to validate it against our assumptions.


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## Werecow (Nov 20, 2020)

TedEH said:


> It's maybe just a semantic thing, but I find it's a phrasing to be careful with. Science is not the _source_ of truth. Something isn't true _because science says so_, it was already true, and science was just the tool we used to validate it against our assumptions.



That's what i meant. It's a process to find the truth. Everyone does science every day whether they realise it or not, even if it's just as simple as working out how something in their house or garage works, or how to do something new.
When it's stated that science says something is the truth it's because so much time in the scientific process has been spent on the subject that the findings are undeniable.


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## bostjan (Nov 20, 2020)

Dude, science is litteraly just what we know. Yeah, what we know is never perfect, but it's always better than what we don't know. It's esecially quite a bit better than what we know is wrong.


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## TedEH (Nov 20, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Dude, science is litteraly just what we know


Again, maybe it's just semantics, but that's also not really what science is either. Science is not a collection of information, or a source of information -> it's a process. It's nothing more than a process.


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## c7spheres (Nov 20, 2020)

Why do some people hate those who think the Earth is flat or vaccines are B.S. but not hate those that believe in _____________ religion?


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## zappatton2 (Nov 20, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Why do some people hate those who think the Earth is flat or vaccines are B.S. but not hate those that believe in _____________ religion?


I suppose if I think about it, religion _can _be innocuous. Even if it is technically anti-science and logic, plenty of followers can take it as a personal comfort when dealing with mortality, without developing the absolutist fanaticism of others to impose said belief on public policy, or target the civil rights of deemed "outsiders".

But anti-vax and anti-science sentiment is active and declared conflict with critical thinking, with all kinds of real and dangerous consequences for health and public policy.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 20, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Again, maybe it's just semantics, but that's also not really what science is either. Science is not a collection of information, or a source of information -> it's a process. It's nothing more than a process.



I think you're literally mansplaining what science is to _an actual scientist_. 

You're also conflating "science" and "scientific method."


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 20, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Why do some people hate those who think the Earth is flat or vaccines are B.S. but not hate those that believe in _____________ religion?



because this is a thread about flat earth and vaccines.


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## works0fheart (Nov 20, 2020)

I'm surprised to see this thread make it to 9 pages. If I had to be annoyed by every person with a huge following that has an ignorant opinion I'd be mad all the time.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 20, 2020)

works0fheart said:


> I'd be mad all the time.



Good sir, have you seen the internet? Everyone is mad at everything, always.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Nov 21, 2020)

Carl Kolchak said:


> And when Science is "weaponized" in the service of a political ideology? Of course that could never happen here in our Democratic utopia.
> 
> It always amazes me how fast these lemmings manage to pick up the Party line and parrot it the way they do. Maybe they're functioning on the same levels of schools of fish or migratory birds?



Science is weaponised all the time. That's one of my main points. And everybody does it by picking and choosing findings which they agree with - whether across economics, social sciences, biomedical sciences etc. 

Unfortunately it's human nature to be biased and to quickly reject things which clash with our pre-conceived ideas. And nobody is really immune from that. It doesn't matter your job, your political leanings or anything else.



diagrammatiks said:


> Oh good the but science is sometimes wrong bullshit brigade finally showed up.
> 
> science is a process. It can be wrong. That's the whole damn point. You test shit. And if you the tests don't prove your point then you change your mind.
> 
> ...



I think you might have hallucinated me having a viewpoint which I don't. Is that possible?

Also, 2 posts by one person is a pretty light "brigade", I must say. I also didn't take any sort of political or ideological side.

I also said nothing about 10 papers standing between me and any position. That's a strawman. My point is that it's impossible for the lay person outside of a field to interpret the evidence, weigh up the quality of experimental methods, assess how experiments and analyses were performed, double-check the statistics etc. So they're left to just believing "experts" on TV or Facebook who report whatever they want.

This is true for all of us, even if you think you are one of the smart people. I haven't personally read the papers about how we determined the earth is a sphere, and I don't personally understand the physics. Nor have I gone into orbit and looked down on the earth to see it with my own eyes. But obviously I don't believe the earth is flat because I'm choosing to listen to experts (and a bit of common sense too). I assume it's the same for you unless you are a physicist. Obviously flat-earth is an extreme example. If you take something simple like "is saturated fat bad for you?" you'll get divergent opinions from hardcore vegans, carnivores, and plenty of authoritative figures, doctors, scientists (and celebrities, youtubers etc) on both sides arguing polar opposites about what the evidence says. And you'll even find meta-analyses coming to not much conclusion at all. So holding up "science" as something with all the answers is just feel-good nonsense to make people feel smug and clever and justified in their views.

Unfortunately, yes, some people are absolutely treating it like a religion. Look at all the weird "I fucking love science"-type Facebook groups. There's people basically worshipping Fauci and holding him up like some sort of hero (and people who see him as some sort of anti-christ). That's pretty religion/cult-like.

Look the way reddit and twitter will jump on any sort of study that supports their viewpoints and actually attack journals and scientists for work they don't like. For example, there was a recent randomised clinical trial showing masks did nothing to prevent spread of Covid in their study, https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817). There were people actually campaigning for the journal to retract it, and the authors have been personally attacked and are being hounded on social media, which is just insane. If the authors did the study and reported it legitimately, there is zero rationale for retraction just because you don't "like" the result. The authors even say that it shouldn't be taken as a recommendation either way, and of course the anti-mask people are using this as justification that they were right all along. Again, taking a smug position by finding some experts who agree with you.



gnoll said:


> Wow, that's long.
> 
> You'd think I said science was perfect. I went back and read my post and I didn't say that, did I?
> 
> ...



I was more using your post as a jumping off point for a large statement. Not really meant to be a direct argument against you or anything 

As for vaccines, I agree that a good vaccine will eventually come along. But my personal position is that I will wait for a while before choosing to have one. As a person at very low risk of death or serious complications from Covid, the vaccine is definitely not essential for me. The equation would be different if I was at higher risk from Covid.



GunpointMetal said:


> Homeopathy vs Whether or Not the World is Flat is not a great way to frame a "science ain't real smart all the time, either" argument.



I didn't mention the world being flat. Mostly because I think the number of people actually believing that (and not just trolling) is miniscule. Even Steph - I had a pretty good feeling he's trolling and attention seeking. Whereas apparently a shitload of people believe in homeopathy, including actual faculty position professors, doctors, physicists (the whole "water memory" thing) and other professionals, which seems crazy to me.



bostjan said:


> Dude, science is litteraly just what we know. Yeah, what we know is never perfect, but it's always better than what we don't know. It's esecially quite a bit better than what we know is wrong.



Science is not "what we know" at all. "Science" really is a process by which we test hypotheses, assign some sort of probability to their truth, and then change our views accordingly. And technically, most of the time you are ruling out or disproving hypotheses, not really confirming them.

The process is extremely messy and the general public are getting a bit of a "look behind the curtain" now, and it's not pretty. What the "science religion" people don't really appreciate is that the majority of published papers are probably wrong, and it usually takes decades to reach true understanding and consensus.


----------



## Carl Kolchak (Nov 21, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Science is weaponised all the time. That's one of my main points. And everybody does it by picking and choosing findings which they agree with - whether across economics, social sciences, biomedical sciences etc.
> 
> Unfortunately it's human nature to be biased and to quickly reject things which clash with our pre-conceived ideas. And nobody is really immune from that. It doesn't matter your job, your political leanings or anything else.



One could make the argument that this trait was once a useful survival mechanism, but has since (I'm looking at you Bernays) been perverted into just another social control mechanism. Be that as it may, please know that I was in no way trying to ideologically pigeonhole your previous posts. In fact, I'm in full agreement with them. Rather, it was my intention to poke a little fun at the scientific shibboleth itself, and not towards any of the views you've personally expressed thus far.

That said, does it not seem as though the internet behaves, for all intents and purposes, very much like a morphogenetic field?


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## gnoll (Nov 21, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> I was more using your post as a jumping off point for a large statement. Not really meant to be a direct argument against you or anything
> 
> As for vaccines, I agree that a good vaccine will eventually come along. But my personal position is that I will wait for a while before choosing to have one. As a person at very low risk of death or serious complications from Covid, the vaccine is definitely not essential for me. The equation would be different if I was at higher risk from Covid.



But what's your point with all this ranting? Justifying not taking the vaccine?

A lot of the stuff you say about the shortcomings of science I more or less agree with. But so what? "Oh no, the process isn't perfect." You expected it to be? You have a better alternative to science?

And about the vaccine, I think
1) Your belief that you're personally better off not taking it initially is probably not even true. I think the risk of a serious side effect is lower than the risk of getting a bad case of covid.
2) It's not just about you. It's also about reducing the rate of transmission and the strain on society. What about the people you transmit it to if you do catch it? And the people they transmit it to? Those people might not be as young and healthy as you are. And if any of you end up in the hospital, those hospital beds could have been free for other patients if you'd taken the vaccine.


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## TedEH (Nov 21, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think you're literally mansplaining what science is to _an actual scientist_.
> 
> You're also conflating "science" and "scientific method."


Doesn't mean I'm wrong though, does it? If I'm wrong, then correct me. Otherwise, I don't care who I'm explaining it to. People are people. Scientists can still get the definition of science wrong.

Literally just type the word science into google:
"the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."

It's an activity. It's a process. It's not a collection or source of knowledge. If I'm wrong, then argue against the point I'm making, instead of appealing to people's job titles.

Edit:
And the point I'm trying to make is that while we're basically using threads like these to call people stupid on the basis of science, we're also getting the idea of what science _is_ wrong.

There are lots of people here and everywhere who I'm sure are incredibly smart, and understand how to interpret scientific writing, etc. - but lots of people don't. Some just know that "science says stuff" therefore it must be true - but that's not how it works. Sometimes science gets things wrong. Sometimes science is up for debate or interpretation. Sometimes people get pointed in the wrong direction because of either actual science, or bad takes on some actual science.

On that basis, I'm willing to forgive people for either standing too firmly behind something "because science said so", but also willing to forgive people who are overly critical of science.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 21, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Doesn't mean I'm wrong though, does it? If I'm wrong, then correct me. Otherwise, I don't care who I'm explaining it to. People are people. Scientists can still get the definition of science wrong.
> 
> Literally just type the word science into google:
> "the intellectual and practical activity encompassing the systematic study of the structure and behaviour of the physical and natural world through observation and experiment."
> ...



Well, if you bothered to read the full definition you would see that it also means:

"a systematically organized *body of knowledge* on a particular subject"

Or clicked the first link or two vs. the Google header when you searched "science definition".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/science

https://www.britannica.com/science/science

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/science

Again, it seems what you're looking for is "scientific method", as defined:

https://www.britannica.com/science/scientific-method

This is a decent breakdown:

https://www.livescience.com/20896-science-scientific-method.html

Did we really need to copy and paste definitions? You couldn't look at what I said, looked it up yourself and gotten the same understanding?


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## TedEH (Nov 21, 2020)

Fair enough, you got me on that.
My original point of it not being the source of information in itself still stands though. I don't know what there is to be gained by trying to argue that knowledge literally comes from science.

I mean, the core of the point that I'm making is still valid. Science doesn't create or decide truth, it finds it, or organizes it.


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## TedEH (Nov 21, 2020)

And as soon as I post that, someone I know posts a video with a headline about how science supposedly says dreams could be the key to time travel........ the video is just some interviews with two people who talk in mostly metaphors, and the narration decides that what the two researchers said must mean that dreams=time travel. No links to anything, no studies to read about or anything. Kind of an amusing coincidence to come up as I'm in this thread.


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## bostjan (Nov 21, 2020)

Wow, this topic has really branched out!

I'd argue that anything trying to look like science that decides facts and then looks for evidence to reinforce those is pseudoscience.

There is a shitload of pseudoscience out there right now.

Has anyone read Carl Sagan's The Demon Haunted World? Pretty relevant stuff to this discussion. If I can paraphrase it in very general strokes with my own interpretation, it says that as our economy goes down the toilet, people tend to look more into superstition and fantasy in order to trick themselves into believing that their level of knowledge is special. As that feeling galvanizes, they'll study conventional knowledge less and less, until their belief system is completely ungrounded, at which point those people can become very aggressive toward conventional ideas or ideas that have been formally vetted, if those ideas erode the base of their beliefs.

He frames this almost as a prediction of the future, but it also seems to me to be a descriptor of what spiraled out of the depression to ignit world war two.

Putin said that whichever nation leads in AI technology will lead the world. Generally speaking, I think that whichever nation leads in technology in general leads the world, but AI might be the next hot thing. In the aftermath of WWII, it was nuclear technology, then computer technology, and continues to be (AI would be a subset of that).

If we turn our backs on science to the point where we no longer use observed facts as evidence, we cannot progress with technology. If, instead of playing around with doping silicon to make transistors, we just clutched onto our crystals and prayed for an economic boom in the 1950's and 1960's, someone else would have taken the reigns.

And honestly, even though people from all over the world still come to the USA and Canada and the UK to study at University, places like Russia and China and Japan and India are becoming generally more scientifically literate than people in the USA especially. The cilture of the West is starting to slowly crumble apart. But Stef's weird worldview isn't a cause, it's a symptom. I mean, we still have a President that fucking told people to inject bleach, and that Easter would somehow stop a global pandemic, because he just felt like that would happen, despite tons of contrary evidence and tons of the world's top experts advising him otherwise.


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## Viginez (Nov 21, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Putin said that whichever nation leads in AI technology will lead the world. Generally speaking, I think that whichever nation leads in technology in general leads the world, but AI might be the next hot thing. In the aftermath of WWII, it was nuclear technology, then computer technology, and continues to be (AI would be a subset of that).


don't forget pandemics. the power grab is immense.


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## RevelGTR (Nov 21, 2020)

This does not change my opinion of him in the slightest and it shouldn’t change yours either. I rely on Steph to come up with fat ass riffs, not run the CDC, dictate policy, or educate me. If you’d listened to him speak for 2 seconds at any point you’d already know that the dude is a dumbass. The idea that this “irresponsible” is frankly silly. The dude said some stupid shit and now the entire internet thinks he’s an idiot. If you think him saying stupid shit is going to effect or change anything in any meaningful way you need to get off your high horse.


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## nickgray (Nov 21, 2020)

RevelGTR said:


> If you think him saying stupid shit is going to effect or change anything in any meaningful way



No, but large scale dumbassery is the sum of small scale dumbasseries. It's the same with littering - when enough people don't give a shit or think that a tiny bit won't make a difference, you get crap everywhere.

Same with replying to this sort of stuff. Obviously, a thread on a forum won't make a difference, but the alternative is to say nothing. And if everyone says nothing all the time, more dumbassery will surely ensue.


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## RevelGTR (Nov 21, 2020)

nickgray said:


> No, but large scale dumbassery is the sum of small scale dumbasseries. It's the same with littering - when enough people don't give a shit or think that a tiny bit won't make a difference, you get crap everywhere.
> 
> Same with replying to this sort of stuff. Obviously, a thread on a forum won't make a difference, but the alternative is to say nothing. And if everyone says nothing all the time, more dumbassery will surely ensue.


It’s tough to say, because while saying nothing surely won’t change his mind it’s unlikely that everyone dunking on him and calling him a piece of shit will change his mind either. I still believe that people are making a WAY bigger deal out of this than it needs to be, and if anything everyone clambering to shit on him has blown up the story and given his stupid ideas a way bigger platform than they would have had.


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## nickgray (Nov 21, 2020)

RevelGTR said:


> that people are making a WAY bigger deal out of this than it needs to be



Talking shit on internet forums is a long, respected tradition


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## chipchappy (Nov 22, 2020)

i say this explains why Gore sucked so hard


----------



## BornToLooze (Nov 22, 2020)




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## StevenC (Nov 22, 2020)

Viginez said:


> don't forget pandemics. the power grab is immense.


What power is being grabbed?


----------



## KailM (Nov 22, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Science is also a large percentage of total bullshit. Let’s be really honest.
> 
> It’s hard to do a perfect study, even with the best intentions. Add on top of that the funding limitations, the need to publish, the need for positive results, the inherent variability in your subjects, the subjects who lie and deviate from the plan, and all the potentials for biases and conflicts of interest to sneak in. No wonder that a massive amount of basic science papers simply can’t be replicated by others. Fields of psychology, sports science etc are even worse.
> 
> ...



Best post in this thread.

It’s easy (and an increasingly scary trend) to label and dismiss someone who disagrees with or doubts the prevailing narrative as anti-science or anti intellectual. In that way, the individual can be silenced and/or ruined.

On the contrary, when people question “the science” — that’s when knowledge can be enhanced and our understanding is improved. I.e — the scientific process.

For the record, I’m not referring to ridiculous ideas like flat Earth. 

When you look at the monkeying big media and social media is willing and able to do to sway public opinion, it pays to be skeptical.

Basically, I don’t believe shit until I’ve looked very deeply into it.


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## Viginez (Nov 22, 2020)

StevenC said:


> What power is being grabbed?


just lock up your opponents and profit


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## philkilla (Nov 22, 2020)

Lemme get first dibs on your deftones paraphernalia.


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## StevenC (Nov 22, 2020)

Viginez said:


> just lock up your opponents and profit


Who are we locking up and when are we getting the cheques?


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## coreysMonster (Nov 22, 2020)

Carpenter's a moron. My patience and tolerance for people who are so arrogant and uneducated to think their Facebook feed is a better source of information than scientists and doctors has reached zero after this stupid year.

The only power grab I'm seeing is from science deniers, profiteers, fringe religious groups and political extremists who have been steadily feeding anti-intellectual sentiment in various countries over the past decades.


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## fps (Nov 23, 2020)

coreysMonster said:


> Carpenter's a moron. My patience and tolerance for people who are so arrogant and uneducated to think their Facebook feed is a better source of information than scientists and doctors has reached zero after this stupid year.
> 
> The only power grab I'm seeing is from science deniers, profiteers, fringe religious groups and political extremists who have been steadily feeding anti-intellectual sentiment in various countries over the past decades.



There seems to be an increasing divide, exacerbated by social media, where people with very few qualifications, who know very few people with qualifications, as a defence mechanism, then outright deny anything they can’t see with their own eyes. In a way, understandable, the extreme end of Dunning Kruger.


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## crazyprofessor (Nov 23, 2020)

I'd say he's about as smart as our current president. No dumber, no smarter.


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## Velokki (Nov 25, 2020)

You know, once again, the rule comes up. *Never, ever meet your heroes.*
I've been bummed about 90% of all musicians I've adored. They've never met my expectations.
One is a drug addict. One is one of the least polite people I've ever met. One has a seriously big ego problem / is narcissist. Many others basically fall in one of these categories.

But I've got to give Mattias Eklund a mention - he was a truly wonderful human being when I met him. He didn't let me down one bit, he's as genuine and nice as they come.

But now... Steph? Yeah wtf. Just enjoy the music.


----------



## mastapimp (Nov 25, 2020)

Velokki said:


> You know, once again, the rule comes up. *Never, ever meet your heroes.*
> I've been bummed about 90% of all musicians I've adored. They've never met my expectations.


Is it really better to have not met them? Once you realize that people have a persona/image, especially in the public eye, you can see past that and realize they're pretty much just like anyone you'd meet off the streets. Some are great people, others are assholes. 

Sometimes you get surprised when you get the opposite response from what's expected. I met Yngwie a long time back and he was gracious and friendly, as was Slash.


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## gnoll (Nov 25, 2020)

I bet if I was a hero and met a fan I'd come across as an asshole. Because I would be so fucking uncomfortable in that situation. I feel bad for famous people what with all these expectations they have to live up to.


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## mlp187 (Nov 25, 2020)

I don’t know who my heroes are these days, but as a kid a couple were definitely Kirk Hammet and Angus Young. I imagined them being super cool, nice, and practicing all of the time. That is the image I wanted to live up to. So really I was idolizing their behaviors I made up in my own mind, thus it was great I never met them. 
On the flip side, Meshuggah were all fucking great except for Jens, he just didn’t want to be their for whatever reason and that’s ok. So I guess what I’m really saying, is gamble at your own risk and idolize actions not people? I don’t know. 
Once again I have added nothing to the conversation, but since I typed this out on mobile I will leave it. 
Oh yeah, fucking love Deftones but holy shit, thank god my favorite member is Abe Cunningham, strictly for is playing.


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## c7spheres (Nov 25, 2020)

Does it really matter if he's a flat Earther or an anti-vaxxer? No need to hate on people. 

- All I'm saying is people put way to much trust in people and "sources" regardless of what subject or side of an opinion it's on. 
- The reality is that we don't know anything about the "big picture".


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## MFB (Nov 25, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Does it really matter if he's a flat Earther or an *anti-vaxxer*? No need to hate on people.
> 
> - All I'm saying is people put way to much trust in people and "sources" regardless of what subject or side of an opinion it's on.
> - The reality is that we don't know anything about the "big picture".



In the case of anti-vacc rhetoric, yes, it does matter and we should actively be fighting it; especially as we're in the midst of a pandemic that continues to spread.


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## coreysMonster (Nov 25, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Does it really matter if he's a flat Earther or an anti-vaxxer?


In 2020? Absolutely yes.



> - All I'm saying is people put way to much trust in people and "sources" regardless of what subject or side of an opinion it's on.


What does this even mean.


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## bostjan (Nov 25, 2020)

Flat earthers are just weird to me.

Antivaxxers, though, literally could harm my loved ones. So, yeah, I take offence.


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## Necky379 (Nov 25, 2020)

Directed at no specific ss.org member/s:

If you’re making health decisions based on Stef’s advice you’re a moron.

This thread is ridiculous. Cancel culture is tiring even from an outsider’s perspective, I don’t know how crusaders have the energy.

He can say or believe whatever he wants, I can disagree with him and so can you. Isn’t free speech and independent thought great? He’s just as entitled to drop some misinformed nonsense as anyone else is. “Rock Guitarist’s Opinion Stops Vaccine Production” is a headline you won’t be seeing, even by the time this thread hits 25 pages.

Now, for your enjoyment, get to telling me how I’m wrong and how a guitar player’s interview is going to empower a movement that will set us back to the 1700’s.


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## Leviathus (Nov 25, 2020)

Idk how this thread is 10 pages long. Things have been slow around here i guess. Someone bump the wintersun thread or something!


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## TedEH (Nov 25, 2020)

I don't think anyone was trying to "cancel" anyone here. If anything, the sentiment in the thread seems to be that there are lots of morons out there and nothing stops you from enjoying their creative output.

A person in an influential position jumping on a bandwagon that already has momentum of opinions that will harm someone if enough people have that opinion though.... It's not about "rock guitarist has stopped vaccine production" it's about "fans of rock refused vaccine and died of curable illness because stupidity is also contagious".


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## broj15 (Nov 25, 2020)

Necky379 said:


> Directed at no specific ss.org member/s:
> 
> If you’re making health decisions based on Stef’s advice you’re a moron.
> 
> ...



Only place where you're wrong is that experiencing social stigma/public backlash over some dumbass shit that you said =/ a violation of freedom of speech/an infringement on free thought. Dude's free to say & think whatever he wants and people are free to clown on him for being an idiot. It would be an infringement of free speech if the government or an agency acting on behalf of the government threw him in a gulag for being an idiot.

For as much as *some people* love the bill of rights & constitution y'all must have a really hard time comprehending it.


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## Necky379 (Nov 25, 2020)

@broj15 I just reread my post to see if I had mistakenly equated “social stigma/public backlash” to “a violation of freedom of speech/an infringement on free thought”. You and I have had some good conversations on here, I’m respectfully asking you to reread my post, specifically the “He can say or believe whatever he wants...” part. I think we are both in agreement in that, as you said, “Dude's free to say & think whatever he wants and people are free to clown on him for being an idiot”. It’s not the clowning, it’s the intent I don’t understand. @TedEH ‘s criticism addressed my point more closely. Ted you said, “It's not about "rock guitarist has stopped vaccine production" it's about "fans of rock refused vaccine and died of curable illness because stupidity is also contagious" to which I say I can’t figure out why anyone would care, that’s on them. Music has glamorized lots of unhealthy behavior for longer than I’ve been alive. Countless celebrities have acted as living billboards for unhealthy products and lifestyles for just as long. I also don’t understand why all of a sudden people feel the need to pick a side every time a kooky (or arguably dangerous) idea or belief comes along and then dog pile on the party guilty of a thoughtcrime.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 25, 2020)

Necky379 said:


> @broj15 I just reread my post to see if I had mistakenly equated “social stigma/public backlash” to “a violation of freedom of speech/an infringement on free thought”. You and I have had some good conversations on here, I’m respectfully asking you to reread my post, specifically the “He can say or believe whatever he wants...” part. I think we are both in agreement in that, as you said, “Dude's free to say & think whatever he wants and people are free to clown on him for being an idiot”. It’s not the clowning, it’s the intent I don’t understand. @TedEH ‘s criticism addressed my point more closely. Ted you said, “It's not about "rock guitarist has stopped vaccine production" it's about "fans of rock refused vaccine and died of curable illness because stupidity is also contagious" to which I say I can’t figure out why anyone would care, that’s on them. Music has glamorized lots of unhealthy behavior for longer than I’ve been alive. Countless celebrities have acted as living billboards for unhealthy products and lifestyles for just as long. I also don’t understand why all of a sudden people feel the need to pick a side every time a kooky (or arguably dangerous) idea or belief comes along and then dog pile on the party guilty of a thoughtcrime.


yeah sure, let's just let anyone say any stupid and dangerous thing that pops into their head without any sort of pushback, ever. great thinking.


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## TedEH (Nov 25, 2020)

Necky379 said:


> Music has glamorized lots of unhealthy behavior for longer than I’ve been alive.


There's a big difference between the "rock and roll lifestyle" that glamorizes unhealthy behaviour, and someone with influence making unsubstantiated claims. Nobody looks at a famous musician destroying themselves with debauchery and thinks "hey, maybe he's got a point!" People _do_ however emulate other aspects of whoever they idolize. 



Necky379 said:


> I can’t figure out why anyone would care, that’s on them


If you don't understand why anyone would care about either people dying of preventable illness or the spread of potentially dangerous misinformation, then I don't know what to tell you. Maybe you would care if one of the susceptible people was someone in your family or an immediate social circle or something? What if I argued that the more people who do stupid things like refuse vaccination put you yourself at risk of the knock-on effects of their stupidity - like you could be infected with something that would have otherwise been eradicated except that people refused to believe that vaccination was in everyone's best interest? Or maybe they take up valuable resources getting medical attention because of their own stupidity, which leaves less available for you if you suddenly need it.


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## bostjan (Nov 25, 2020)

To anyone who thinks criticizing someone for something they said is a free speech issue, by the same logic, criticizing that person's criticism is the same sin. 

Fight words with only words. Fight misinformation with information. As long as it doesn't escalate to something outside of the scope of the perceived transgression, it's fair play.

There's also a difference between believing something and preaching it. Maybe I have some crazy thoughts about 911 or whatever, and that should be fine, but if I go around riling people up about it and publicizing it, then I need to be able to either defend my position with logic and evidence or be able to handle being called an idiot.


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## broj15 (Nov 25, 2020)

Necky379 said:


> @broj15 I just reread my post to see if I had mistakenly equated “social stigma/public backlash” to “a violation of freedom of speech/an infringement on free thought”. You and I have had some good conversations on here, I’m respectfully asking you to reread my post, specifically the “He can say or believe whatever he wants...” part. I think we are both in agreement in that, as you said, “Dude's free to say & think whatever he wants and people are free to clown on him for being an idiot”. It’s not the clowning, it’s the intent I don’t understand. @TedEH ‘s criticism addressed my point more closely. Ted you said, “It's not about "rock guitarist has stopped vaccine production" it's about "fans of rock refused vaccine and died of curable illness because stupidity is also contagious" to which I say I can’t figure out why anyone would care, that’s on them. Music has glamorized lots of unhealthy behavior for longer than I’ve been alive. Countless celebrities have acted as living billboards for unhealthy products and lifestyles for just as long. I also don’t understand why all of a sudden people feel the need to pick a side every time a kooky (or arguably dangerous) idea or belief comes along and then dog pile on the party guilty of a thoughtcrime.




I appreciate the civil reply and I'm sorry if I came off as a dick. I just thought it was a bit out there to chalk this thread up to cancel culture run amok. My intentions in posting the original article weren't to try and "cancel" SC (I don't have the social clout for that & this forum probably makes up the smallest fraction of his entire fan base). It was more to say "hey look at this dumbass, let's all point and laugh", which is immature, but so is thinking that vaccines don't work and that the earth is actually flat.
Plus I just see alot of reactionaries deriding "cancel culture" by conflating social backlash/stigma/"getting cancelled" with a direct infringement on thier rights, which is certainly not the case. Plus it's always a *certain type of person* that seems to have a problem with "cancel culture" ,a term that, for the record, I'm not to particularly fond of as it in and of itself is a reactionary term used by those certain people in order to trivialize the issue/belief/statements and chalk up any adverse reaction as "snowflakes getting triggered".

Edit: plus, as a former heavy drug user who has spent alot of time around some certified space cases the whole "bro vaccines are poison, the earth is flat, everything THE MAN is trying to tell you is a LIE. Now let's smoke some DMT & get fuckin spaced off this ketamine" mentality is just fucking laughable. I even thought it was laughable when I was involved with those kind of people. Yeah vaccines and processed food are totally poison but all the weed & other drugs they consume is totally perfectly 100% safe because "it unclouds your third eye bro". And if I get even half a chance to take a cheap shot at one of those idiots you best believe I'm going to . Like, yes, I to have consumed psychedelic drugs & listened to Terrence Mackenna and Joe Rogan, yet somehow I've managed to avoid being a total idiot.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 25, 2020)

broj15 said:


> I appreciate the civil reply and I'm sorry if I came off as a dick. I just thought it was a bit out there to chalk this thread up to cancel culture run amok. My intentions in posting the original article weren't to try and "cancel" SC (I don't have the social clout for that & this forum probably makes up the smallest fraction of his entire fan base). It was more to say "hey look at this dumbass, let's all point and laugh", which is immature, but so is thinking that vaccines don't work and that the earth is actually flat.
> Plus I just see alot of reactionaries deriding "cancel culture" by conflating social backlash/stigma/"getting cancelled" with a direct infringement on thier rights, which is certainly not the case. Plus it's always a *certain type of person* that seems to have a problem with "cancel culture" ,a term that, for the record, I'm not to particularly fond of as it in and of itself is a reactionary term used by those certain people in order to trivialize the issue/belief/statements and chalk up any adverse reaction as "snowflakes getting triggered".
> 
> Edit: plus, as a former heavy drug user who has spent alot of time around some certified space cases the whole "bro vaccines are poison, the earth is flat, everything THE MAN is trying to tell you is a LIE. Now let's smoke some DMT & get fuckin spaced off this ketamine" mentality is just fucking laughable. I even thought it was laughable when I was involved with those kind of people. Yeah vaccines and processed food are totally poison but all the weed & other drugs they consume is totally perfectly 100% safe because "it unclouds your third eye bro". And if I get even half a chance to take a cheap shot at one of those idiots you best believe I'm going to . Like, yes, I to have consumed psychedelic drugs & listened to Terrence Mackenna and Joe Rogan, yet somehow I've managed to avoid being a total idiot.



hey man don’t put McKenna and Rogan in the same sentence.


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## broj15 (Nov 25, 2020)

^^^^ that's fair. McKenna is light-years beyond Rogan in terms of intelligence, but the dude still had some pretty whacked out ideas. I was more pointing out the huge overlap in thier respective fan bases & how that seems to overlap with people who treat drug use like it's some kind of religion.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 26, 2020)

broj15 said:


> ^^^^ that's fair. McKenna is light-years beyond Rogan in terms of intelligence, but the dude still had some pretty whacked out ideas. I was more pointing out the huge overlap in thier respective fan bases & how that seems to overlap with people who treat drug use like it's some kind of religion.



I mean I think we can draw a clear line between things that would be kinda cool and wacky if true. and things that will literally kill you or other people if you believe in them.


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## gnoll (Nov 26, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Fight misinformation with information.



Information like "dumbass" or "fucking idiot"?

If so, this thread is nailing it.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Information like "dumbass" or "fucking idiot"?
> 
> If so, this thread is nailing it.


calling someone a dumbass and providing factual info isn't mutually exclusive y'know


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## gnoll (Nov 26, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> calling someone a dumbass and providing factual info isn't mutually exclusive y'know



If someone called me a dumbass I wouldn't take what he said as seriously as if he didn't call me that.

But fine, whatever. Maybe it's good, I don't know.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 26, 2020)

I came in here just to see how this topic could possibly get to 11 pages.

Seriously....the fuck is wrong with you people?


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## TedEH (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Information like "dumbass" or "fucking idiot"?


Being uncomfortable with the choice of words doesn't make it untrue though.

"I believe this individual to be incapable of meeting the already-very-low bar of basic common sense" just doesn't quite portray the same level of disappointment and concern.


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## gnoll (Nov 26, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Being uncomfortable with the choice of words doesn't make it untrue though.
> 
> "I believe this individual to be incapable of meeting the already-very-low bar of basic common sense" just doesn't quite portray the same level of disappointment and concern.



I'm not uncomfortable, I just think it's a bad idea. Like, want people to listen to you? Probably not a great idea to insult them. I think that just makes the divide between people bigger, and makes it harder for people to listen to and learn from each other.

Anyway, I feel like I tried to make a similar point earlier in this thread and now I feel like I'm repeating myself, so whatever.


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## TedEH (Nov 26, 2020)

In a face-to-face conversation with the person you're calling a dumbass, sure. Don't call a dumbass a dumbass to his face if you want him to listen to you. But Stephen Carpenter is not here in this thread.


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## StevenC (Nov 26, 2020)

TedEH said:


> In a face-to-face conversation with the person you're calling a dumbass, sure. Don't call a dumbass a dumbass to his face if you want him to listen to you. But Stephen Carpenter is not here in this thread.


Uhh, Stephen Carpenter can spontaneously generate wherever he wants.


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## bostjan (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> I'm not uncomfortable, I just think it's a bad idea. Like, want people to listen to you? Probably not a great idea to insult them. I think that just makes the divide between people bigger, and makes it harder for people to listen to and learn from each other.
> 
> Anyway, I feel like I tried to make a similar point earlier in this thread and now I feel like I'm repeating myself, so whatever.



Maybe someone is a dumbass and, therefore, it's no longer worth the effort to argue with them. It doesn't mean it's not wworth trying to convince their followers that they are a dumbass.

Maybe those followers gradually start to believe the person is a dumbass and take a step back away from him. After losing some followers, maybe the dumbass will wise up or not get re-elected, at least.


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## gnoll (Nov 26, 2020)

I don't think it's a good idea to view people who think differently as dumbasses wherever they happen to be. Not to say I never do it myself but I try not to at least.

That's how I feel and since I've said that now I'm gonna try to stop replying in this thread because I'm tired of it.


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## StevenC (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> I don't think it's a good idea to view people who think differently as dumbasses wherever they happen to be. Not to say I never do it myself but I try not to at least.
> 
> That's how I feel and since I've said that now I'm gonna try to stop replying in this thread because I'm tired of it.


Did you read what Carpenter said? That's some grade A dumbassery, not "thinking differently".


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## gnoll (Nov 26, 2020)

StevenC said:


> Did you read what Carpenter said? That's some grade A dumbassery, not "thinking differently".



No, I don't really care, I wouldn't even know about this it if it wasn't for this thread. I mean I get it, it's not like I haven't called anyone dumbass before. I just think it can do a lot of good in the world if people try not to call others stupid, but instead explain why they think they're wrong without insults. I know I sound like some lame-o hippie but whatever.


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## jephjacques (Nov 26, 2020)

lmao


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## Demiurge (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> No, I don't really care, I wouldn't even know about this it if it wasn't for this thread. I mean I get it, it's not like I haven't called anyone dumbass before. I just think it can do a lot of good in the world if people try not to call others stupid, but instead explain why they think they're wrong without insults. I know I sound like some lame-o hippie but whatever.



I can respect that, but at the same time I feel like we're in a world where stupid & destructive ideas easily find their way to the bully pulpit, so to speak. Maybe we don't browbeat people with stupid ideas, but we don't wring our hands over calling it out, either.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 26, 2020)




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## StevenC (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> No, I don't really care, I wouldn't even know about this it if it wasn't for this thread. I mean I get it, it's not like I haven't called anyone dumbass before. I just think it can do a lot of good in the world if people try not to call others stupid, but instead explain why they think they're wrong without insults. I know I sound like some lame-o hippie but whatever.


Spontaneous generation doesn't require any more explanation than "dumbass" for anyone who's taken a high school biology class. I'm not going to send Stephen Carpenter a gooseneck flask to explain why he's a dumbass.


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## coreysMonster (Nov 26, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> lmao


I agree with this take.


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## jwade (Nov 26, 2020)

Man, that was an unexpected 12 pages. Sheesh. I mean...wow.


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## chipchappy (Nov 26, 2020)

if there's even a whiff of an unpopular/illogical opinion, SSO swarms it like piranhas on a chicken thigh


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## akinari (Nov 26, 2020)

chipchappy said:


> if there's even a whiff of an opinion, the entire internet swarms it like piranhas on a chicken thigh



I know huh?


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## TheBlackBard (Nov 26, 2020)

Well, I've admired better musicians for a lot worse behavior, so I guess I'm just going to keep listening to the music.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 26, 2020)

gnoll said:


> No, I don't really care, I wouldn't even know about this it if it wasn't for this thread. I mean I get it, it's not like I haven't called anyone dumbass before. I just think it can do a lot of good in the world if people try not to call others stupid, but instead explain why they think they're wrong without insults. I know I sound like some lame-o hippie but whatever.



This is an age of endless knowledge. People walk around with devices in their hands that will tell them ANYTHING in the world they ever wanted to know with endless detail. You have to try really hard to be stupid these days. If in this age of information you are STILL ridiculously wrong about things that were already established decades ago then you are, in fact, a dumbass. There's literally no way around it.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 20, 2021)

https://www.theprp.com/2021/10/19/n...-the-status-of-the-bands-shelved-record-eros/

Welp Chino responded to them almost a year later.


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## ArtDecade (Oct 20, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> https://www.theprp.com/2021/10/19/n...-the-status-of-the-bands-shelved-record-eros/
> 
> Welp Chino responded to them almost a year later.



Ah, the old "he smoked himself stupid" defense!


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## Dekay82 (Oct 20, 2021)

Can you imagine during the entirety of quarantine just getting chonged out, looking at infowars and 4chan, and just dicking around on $8,000 ESP customs ripping off 20 year old Meshugga riffs?

Man, what a life.


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## BlackMastodon (Oct 20, 2021)

I was more interested in what he had to say about Eros. Disappointed, but not surprising. I fucking love Smile but if the rest of the album isn't on that level or even close to complete then yeah let it rest I guess.


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## GenghisCoyne (Oct 20, 2021)

StevenC said:


> Spontaneous generation doesn't require any more explanation than "dumbass" for anyone who's taken a high school biology class. I'm not going to send Stephen Carpenter a gooseneck flask to explain why he's a dumbass.



hey man lemme get a picture of the curvature of the earth that wasnt taken with a fisheye


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 20, 2021)

BlackMastodon said:


> I was more interested in what he had to say about Eros. Disappointed, but not surprising. I fucking love Smile but if the rest of the album isn't on that level or even close to complete then yeah let it rest I guess.



Yeah it doesn't sound like Eros will ever come out if Chino doesn't like the material. He made it sound like the recording sessions were great, but the material that came up just doesn't compare to the stuff they released since. That or I'm wondering if Chi's death just puts a dark cloud over all the material.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Oct 21, 2021)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah it doesn't sound like Eros will ever come out if Chino doesn't like the material. He made it sound like the recording sessions were great, but the material that came up just doesn't compare to the stuff they released since. That or I'm wondering if Chi's death just puts a dark cloud over all the material.



Such a bummer. I absolutely loved smile, and while I have enjoyed the bands output post Chi Cheng he was a large part of their sound in my favourite era of the band (White Pony, Self Titled, Saturday Night Wrist). I would move mountains to hear it but I can also understand why they want to leave it rest. 

RIP Chi.


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