# Baltimore



## ArtDecade (Apr 27, 2015)

Keep it peaceful.


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## MikeH (Apr 28, 2015)

I've voiced too many long-winded opinions about this situation, so I'll keep it short:

There needs to be a serious reform in the punishment chain of command in all police departments. This is coming from a person who will be a police officer in about 7 months. That being said, the rioting and looting are nothing but blatant opportunism and exploitation for bottom-feeders to come out and get their adrenaline pumping. If they gave any sort of a .... about the issue that sparked this situation, they would not be destroying their homes and the businesses that fellow residents have poured their blood, sweat, and tears to build into their source of revenue and living. And it's becoming quite apparent that they themselves are making this a race issue, as this only happens when a white cop shoots a black person. Group together peacefully as a whole and you will be too big to be ignored. Keep wrecking your home and nobody will take you seriously.


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## beyondcosmos (Apr 28, 2015)

MikeH said:


> I've voiced too many long-winded opinions about this situation, so I'll keep it short:
> 
> There needs to be a serious reform in the punishment chain of command in all police departments. This is coming from a person who will be a police officer in about 7 months. That being said, the rioting and looting are nothing but blatant opportunism and exploitation for bottom-feeders to come out and get their adrenaline pumping. If they gave any sort of a .... about the issue that sparked this situation, they would not be destroying their homes and the businesses that fellow residents have poured their blood, sweat, and tears to build into their source of revenue and living. And it's becoming quite apparent that they themselves are making this a race issue, as this only happens when a white cop shoots a black person. Group together peacefully as a whole and you will be too big to be ignored. Keep wrecking your home and nobody will take you seriously.



This is one of the best points I've read online. Nicely said, dude.


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## MikeH (Apr 28, 2015)

It's only my opinion. I've taken many sides on the issue, but there's just too many perspectives to go with "this side vs that side" anymore. There are people on the streets in peaceful protest that have a genuine interest in bettering their situation by showing that they are a civil people, while teenage and 20-something thugs crowd the media and totally misconstrue the bottom line issue at hand.


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## vilk (Apr 28, 2015)

No one is "making it a race issue". _It is a race issue._ I mean, I feel as uncomfortable around cops as the next [white] guy, but there's no denying the statistics.

Though obviously the need to restructure our approach to law enforcement does transcend race.


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## MikeH (Apr 28, 2015)

EDIT: Nvm.


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## asher (Apr 28, 2015)

Orioles COO John Angelos gets it:



> Brett, speaking only for myself, I agree with your point that the principle of peaceful, non-violent protest and the observance of the rule of law is of utmost importance in any society. MLK, Gandhi, Mandela and all great opposition leaders throughout history have always preached this precept. Further, it is critical that in any democracy, investigation must be completed and due process must be honored before any government or police members are judged responsible.
> 
> That said, my greater source of personal concern, outrage and sympathy beyond this particular case is focused neither upon one night&#8217;s property damage nor upon the acts, but is focused rather upon the past four-decade period during which an American political elite have shipped middle class and working class jobs away from Baltimore and cities and towns around the U.S. to third-world dictatorships like China and others, plunged tens of millions of good, hard-working Americans into economic devastation, and then followed that action around the nation by diminishing every American&#8217;s civil rights protections in order to control an unfairly impoverished population living under an ever-declining standard of living and suffering at the butt end of an ever-more militarized and aggressive surveillance state.
> 
> The innocent working families of all backgrounds whose lives and dreams have been cut short by excessive violence, surveillance, and other abuses of the Bill of Rights by government pay the true price, and ultimate price, and one that far exceeds the importances of any kids&#8217; game played tonight, or ever, at Camden Yards. We need to keep in mind people are suffering and dying around the U.S., and while we are thankful no one was injured at Camden Yards, there is a far bigger picture for poor Americans in Baltimore and everywhere who don&#8217;t have jobs and are losing economic civil and legal rights, and this makes inconvenience at a ballgame irrelevant in light of the needless suffering government is inflicting upon ordinary Americans.



Orioles COO John Angelos offers eye-opening perspective on Baltimore protests | For The Win

Also, Ta-Nehisi Coates, excellent as always. And he grew up there.

As Riots Follow Freddie Gray's Death in Baltimore, Calls for Calm Ring Hollow - The Atlantic

snip:



> When nonviolence is preached as an attempt to evade the repercussions of political brutality, it betrays itself. When nonviolence begins halfway through the war with the aggressor calling time out, it exposes itself as a ruse. When nonviolence is preached by the representatives of the state, while the state doles out heaps of violence to its citizens, it reveals itself to be a con. And none of this can mean that rioting or violence is "correct" or "wise," any more than a forest fire can be "correct" or "wise." Wisdom isn't the point tonight. Disrespect is. In this case, disrespect for the hollow law and failed order that so regularly disrespects the community.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

Honestly, minorities in this country really get the short stick, especially blacks. 

Has anyone actually been to a "ghetto" area in their city or any major city in this country? It's a damn shame, not on the people who live there, but in us as a society allowing that to happen. The housing is unsatisfactory for a first world nation, the utilities and infrastructure are a joke, and people are living in poverty. Add to that the schools and childcare are abysmal.

You can't have all that strife and expect peaceful law abiding citizens. 

That isn't the police's fault, it's all our faults. We need to drop the bravado and help our fellowman. We're all Americans and we need to start acting like it.


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## asher (Apr 28, 2015)

> Over the past four years, more than 100 people have won court judgments or settlements related to allegations of brutality and civil rights violations. Victims include a 15-year-old boy riding a dirt bike, a 26-year-old pregnant accountant who had witnessed a beating, a 50-year-old woman selling church raffle tickets, a 65-year-old church deacon rolling a cigarette and an 87-year-old grandmother aiding her wounded grandson.
> 
> Those cases detail a frightful human toll. Officers have battered dozens of residents who suffered broken bones &#8212; jaws, noses, arms, legs, ankles &#8212; head trauma, organ failure, and even death, coming during questionable arrests. Some residents were beaten while handcuffed; others were thrown to the pavement.



Undue force - Sun Investigates - The Baltimore Sun


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## mr coffee (Apr 28, 2015)

Statistics mean nothing to me. Resist the police in court with your lawyer, you stand a far better chance. Resist them on the street, it is not likely to end well.

-m


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## ArtDecade (Apr 28, 2015)

mr coffee said:


> Resist the police in court with your lawyer, you stand a far better chance. Resist them on the street, it is not likely to end well.



I know you don't like statistics, but 1 in 11 black adults (9.2 percent) are behind bars, on probabation or on parole. Trusting in the legal system is barely an option.

Pew Press Release: 1 in 31 U.S. Adults in Prison System


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## asher (Apr 28, 2015)

mr coffee said:


> Statistics mean nothing to me. Resist the police in court with your lawyer, you stand a far better chance. Resist them on the street, it is not likely to end well.
> 
> -m



"Who are you going to believe, me or actual real data your own lying eyes?"

Please tell me more about how Freddie Gray and Eric Gardner and Tamir Rice were actually resisting arrest.


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## vilk (Apr 28, 2015)

hey coffee, idk how keen you are on reading stuff that isn't statistics, but surely you realize that many of these people _are not resisting the police_; the police are merely using this excuse in an attempt to not face the consequences of their very illegal actions. You have to realize that use of force outside the parameters of the law _is a crime_ for on duty policemen as much as it is for anyone else.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

asher said:


> "Who are you going to believe, me or actual real data your own lying eyes?"
> 
> Please tell me more about how Freddie Gray and Eric Gardner and Tamir Rice were actually resisting arrest.



Ran. Refused to submit for handcuffs and blocked the officer. Reached for what the officers thought, yet tragically wasn't, a weapon. 

If Gray had not run, Garner just submitted, and Rice thrown his hands up more than likely they'd still be alive. 

The problem here is that the police are trained to suspect the absolute worst, which has a down side. I don't agree with how the police handle things and I too think much reform and soul searching is needed. But at the end of the day, like it or not, they have the means and authority to really mess you up and I'm not just talking about sentencing. 

What we need to do is close the gap I mentioned above and turn it from a police vs. minority debate into something more productive and long term.

I guess what I'm saying is that, for now, submitting to the police needs to be done. What we need to work on is what happens after that. If a cop is wrong they need to face the consequences.


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## mr coffee (Apr 28, 2015)

You know, as a long haired metalhead hood running the streets of Flint, I had my turn, and you notice I'm still around to tell about it. They pointed guns at me, they put their hands on me, the put me in the car, and you better believe I complied, because I don't feel like being beat down, pepper sprayed, tazered, clubbed, shot, whatever. One night in intake housing is a far better looking option for me.

When the cops say get in the car, you get in the car. Didn't do whatever they're accusing you of? Suck it up, get in the car, spend the night in jail, get arraigned, enter your plea like every smart citizen does. When you are acquitted, you have a case for wrongful arrest, or you can just put it behind you.

All the statistics tell me is that a certain cross section of the population isn't smart enough to work with the system. We don't have to like the system, and we can work to change the system, but for now, you want to survive, you have to play the game.

-m


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## ArtDecade (Apr 28, 2015)

mr coffee said:


> All the statistics tell me is that a certain cross section of the population isn't smart enough to work with the system. We don't have to like the system, and we can work to change the system, but for now, you want to survive, you have to play the game.



... said the white guy that the system is biased toward.


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## mr coffee (Apr 28, 2015)

Right, because cops and judges love tattooed, pierced counterculture types.

-m


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> ... said the white guy that the system is biased toward.



And that bias is unfortunately a product of our system and society. The fact that blacks are three times more likely to be killed by the police than caucasians is scary and should be enough to make folks pissed off enough to start really fixing the problem. 

To sit back and blame the victims is lazy. While I won't dismiss individual blame, everyone should be responsible for thier actions, obviously the system is broken. 

Like I said before, we need to help our fellow citizens rise above this in order to keep this from happening more.


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## Randy (Apr 28, 2015)

In the case of many people, if they were rational enough to fully comply with the police, they wouldn't be in trouble in first place.

Likewise, if police are willing to act on somebody with little to no provocation, what reason should somebody have to expect they're going to be treated any better if they _do_ comply?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

mr coffee said:


> Right, because cops and judges love tattooed, pierced counterculture types.
> 
> -m



Depends on what color is underneath those tattoos. 

I'm a tattooed, pierced, metal ............, and I'd have a better chance, statically, in front of a judge even a black one, than an almost identical guy who just happens to be black. 

It's sad, but true.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 28, 2015)

mr coffee said:


> Right, because cops and judges love tattooed, pierced counterculture types.
> 
> -m



First off, those were your choices. 
Second off, you are still going to benefit in the eyes of the law. I don't see hipsters filling our jails. 

Justice is not color blind in this country.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

Randy said:


> In the case of many people, if they were rational enough to fully comply with the police, they wouldn't be in trouble in first place.
> 
> Likewise, if police are willing to act on somebody with little to no provocation, what reason should somebody have to expect they're going to be treated any better if they _do_ comply?



The sad thing is that we'll never know what would have happened otherwise. Maybe those cops just really wanted to kill someone, but I'm inclined to believe that as an individual, I should go with what might be the best overall outcome vs. what potentially could be the worst. I know I can't outrun a bullet, and I'll act accordingly.


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## asher (Apr 28, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Ran. Refused to submit for handcuffs and blocked the officer. Reached for what the officers thought, yet tragically wasn't, a weapon.
> 
> If Gray had not run, Garner just submitted, and Rice thrown his hands up more than likely they'd still be alive.
> 
> ...



Garner offered little to no actual physical resistance, and clearly stopped once he was grappled.

Rice was given *four whole seconds* between the cop *exiting the car* and being shot. And he was a fvcking 12 year old kid. That's not resisting arrest.

Simply running from a cop who isn't actively trying to arrest you (yet) isn't resisting arrest either.



> I think it&#8217;s bizarre that its necessary to explain that when the police a) Arrest someone for no reason, b) Initially respond to his death due to severe trauma by saying &#8220;He was fine when we put him in there&#8221; and c) Continue to refuse to explain how an allegedly healthy person suffered a crushed trachea and a broken spine while in their custody, people are going to get pissed.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

Split hairs all you want, I'm not saying you're wrong, but we do know the outcomes here. They resisted just enough for the cops to see them as a threat. As for Rice, his case is unique, I don't think anyone claimed he resisted, he reached for what appeared to be a weapon and...we all know what happened next unfortunately. It was a judgment call, the wrong one. 

As I've already said, it's wrong these folks had to die and the police deserve be prosecuted as such. Though, we have to bring this into the real world and the ....ty real world says that if you see a cop, and he's interested in you, submit. That's definitely not how it should be, but right now it is. We need to work towards changing that. 

I think that the best way to start fixing things at the police level is diversifying the force. It's happened a little over the last decade, but not enough. Only 25% of law enforcement is non-white, but many serve areas where the neighborhood is the inverse.

Edit: As an aside, seeing as you brought up Tamir Rice. He was 12, but also 5' 7" and 200lbs, so it's not like the cops could see he was a middle-schooler. The toy gun was a very realistic airsoft gun which had its blaze orange safety tip (which is meant for situations just like this) removed. The police who responded where not told that the gun might have been a toy or that he was possibly a juvenile. They were only told someone was aiming a gun at people in a park. When the officers arrived they told him to place his hands in the air and he went for the toy gun in his waistband. The officer who shot Rice was a newer recruit who was known to be jumpy and was later found out to likely be unfit for duty. It was a perfect storm of crap that had the worst outcome, but I don't feel it was a showcase in police brutality or racism.


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## flint757 (Apr 28, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that, for now, submitting to the police needs to be done. What we need to work on is what happens after that. If a cop is wrong they need to face the consequences.



It's definitely your best option. That said, without proof that's kind of hard to do, given a policeman's accusation likely holds more weight than the accused's (although resisting definitely won't help your case ).

Another issue I've noticed is that say for instance they violate my 4th amendment right at a stop. One, they intentionally phrase things ambiguously to trick you into complying or implicitly giving them permission (revoking your 4th amendment right), but even if you don't they will still search you. Now, that evidence, if proven to be a violation of the 4th amendment, would get thrown out in the case, but that's pretty much where the buck usually stops. It's not like they get in serious trouble for breaking these rules. I mean even when theirs a death there isn't usually much looking into that occurs. 

In any case, I have mixed feelings about this whole situation and situations like it in general. On one side you've got the police not following their code of conduct or the law (whether the person was guilty or not doesn't really matter, they should be following the rules they enforce), the news that is only showing the violent side of things as it makes for better ratings and easy dismissal of the larger issues, peaceful protesters who go ignored by the public, onlookers who think that if you've ever done anything wrong ever then it's okay when someone kills you (well he robbed a store, he got what he deserved; who knew this was Judge Dredd). Then you've got on the other side the impoverished communities that let these things happen in the first place. You've got majority minority neighborhoods that are dirt poor so they commit crimes and join gangs leading to a lot more encounters with the authorities (not implying that everyone is committing crimes, but that crime is just in general higher). It's very grey area.

On that I feel it's a two sided issue. You've got to some degree authority figures seemingly targeting minorities, but on the other in quite a few of the cases they weren't exactly innocent either. It leads to a rather interesting conundrum that isn't really straight forward enough to meaningfully tackle in a simple manner. It's not a simple because they're white and because they're black issue (although under no circumstance should the authorities ever be allowed to break their own rules like they seem to do regularly). It's much more complex and to assume otherwise does a disservice to the larger problems we're suffering from as a nation.

I will say that just assuming that every incidence with the white police vs. a minority as a race issue exclusively is not a healthy mentality to take. It's biased and ignores the evidence at first glance skewing ones position on the issue. Not saying it's a police vs. us thing either though. There are certainly more cases of other races where people should be more upset and take notice/action and we don't. That's something minority communities do right IMO, they stand up and take action (even though it tends to go too far). The issue I have is turning it into a race issue, whether accurate or not, always seems to make things worse. We need to be upset that poor communities feel they have to resort to poor judgement, that their are neighborhoods made up almost entirely of only minorities, that the police don't follow protocol and that because it's easier they tend to resort to profiling, all of which are race related, but race isn't quite the motivation IMO.

Making it solely a race issue is just not helpful. It only breeds hate on both communities involved. It's events like this that lead to some minorities literally hating white people and white people completely dismissing the issues due to the rioting. A white person cannot walk into a minority neighborhood and likely come out unscathed or not harassed so it isn't just a simple race issue. At UH Main Campus, located in the Third Ward, I got harassed by the black residents there on a daily basis because I'm a short, white guy. Does anyone think painting with a large brush is going to improve either situation. People just need to stop hating on each other and the police need to be held more accountable for their actions. it's ridiculous how much they get away with even outside of cases that end in death. It's like they don't even know the laws they're enforcing.


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## asher (Apr 28, 2015)

When this routinely happens to white people in similar areas, let me know.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

asher said:


> When this routinely happens to white people in similar areas, let me know.



This is probably the most insulting reply to what Flint said. Not only are you ignoring the message, but reinforcing the negative. 

The question isn't "Are cops racist" it's "Why is there a bias". To suspect the first is silly, especially with a quarter of all cops being minorities, and doesn't see fit to try and fix anything. The second, while more complex is getting to the problem and possibly a solution down the line. 

This isn't a cut and dry thing and is serious enough of a problem to deserve our full respect when dealing with it. Respect, not simplification.

You can sit there and detail all the bad things cops have done, with no context, or you can examine the issue as a whole. One is productive, the other isn't.

Also:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...e-whites-than-blacks-but-minority-d/?page=all

I'll spend some time looking at other sources, but cursory research points to it being pretty accurate.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Split hairs all you want, I'm not saying you're wrong, but we do know the outcomes here. They resisted just enough for the cops to see them as a threat. As for Rice, his case is unique, I don't think anyone claimed he resisted, he reached for what appeared to be a weapon and...we all know what happened next unfortunately. It was a judgment call, the wrong one.
> 
> As I've already said, it's wrong these folks had to die and the police deserve be prosecuted as such. Though, we have to bring this into the real world and the ....ty real world says that if you see a cop, and he's interested in you, submit. That's definitely not how it should be, but right now it is. We need to work towards changing that.
> 
> ...



Your opinions seem to mirror mine. In regards to your edit, I don't think it matters even if someone said they suspected the gun was fake. That's something that always irked me about some of these cases. "The caller said it was probably a fake gun." Unless it's been confirmed, weapons should be treated as real.

This whole situation is ....ed though. I generally side with the police, but it's hard when someone severs their spine while in custody. Sure it technically could, but I can't imagine the investigation being fair. I want to believe the cops acted perfectly fine, but it's going to take some serious evidence to convince me. I don't question his arrest, as the second he ran he gave probable cause, (and his past/the area gave reason for police to make eye contact.) but people's spines don't just break. Something happened but I don't think we'll ever find out what.

also, .... the rioters. Destroying an already distraught neighborhood does no good. Also lends potential false credence to the cops since the only ones harmed were the police and not the rioters.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 28, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The question isn't "Are cops racist" it's "Why is there a bias". To suspect the first is silly, especially with a quarter of all cops being minorities, and doesn't see fit to try and fix anything. The second, while more complex is getting to the problem and possibly a solution down the line. .



The bias _is_ a result of racism. The problem is how do you fix it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> The bias _is_ a result of racism. The problem is how do you fix it.



I don't think racism is totally at fault. At least in a dictionary sense of the word:



> The Oxford English Dictionary defines racism as the "belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races" and the expression of such prejudice,
> Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines it as a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority or inferiority of a particular racial group, and alternatively that it is also the prejudice based on such a belief.
> The Macquarie Dictionary defines racism as: "the belief that human races have distinctive characteristics which determine their respective cultures, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule or dominate others."



I'm sure it's a component, but not the key.

As I said, one in four cops is a minority. Do they not kill anyone? I'm kinda really asking as the data totally doesn't exist.

I'd be more inclined to think it's a class issue, maybe with racial undertones, but classism isn't racism.


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## asher (Apr 28, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is probably the most insulting reply to what Flint said. Not only are you ignoring the message, but reinforcing the negative.
> 
> The question isn't "Are cops racist" it's "Why is there a bias". To suspect the first is silly, especially with a quarter of all cops being minorities, and doesn't see fit to try and fix anything. The second, while more complex is getting to the problem and possibly a solution down the line.
> 
> ...



More to the rest tomorrow when I have some more time, as you're right, that was too flip probably. Apologies, I owe you guys more than that.

But (from the article), as much as I hate PolitiFact:



> But PolitiFact gave his assertion a &#8220;half true&#8221; rating because whites make up 63 percent of the population, while blacks make up just 12 percent.
> 
> &#8220;Yes, more whites than blacks die as a result of an encounter with police, but whites also represent a much bigger chunk of the total population,&#8221; PolitiFact said in its Aug. 21 post.r



and at the end:



> &#8220;The odds that any given black man will shoot and kill a police officer in any given year is slim to none, about one in a million. The odds for any given white man? One in four million,&#8221; he said. &#8220;The odds that a black man will be shot and killed by a police officer is about 1 in 60,000. For a white man those odds are 1 in 200,000.&#8221;



It would be nice if the data were better, for sure.

Another short thought: it seems like you're discounting the likelihood (see the rest of the highly biased statistics of the full justice system, of which I'm sure you're aware) of institutionalized racial bias. Am I wrong?


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

asher said:


> Another short thought: it seems like you're discounting the likelihood (see the rest of the highly biased statistics of the full justice system, of which I'm sure you're aware) of institutionalized racial bias. Am I wrong?



I don't discount that it exists and it plainy does, I just don't think it's as simple as good old fashioned black hate. If that was the case, true "I hate black people" style racism, we'd have a much higher instance of violence against them, and on the flip side (the other side of racism at least) I think we'd see a greater instance of violence against other minorities if it was a "white people are superior" issue. 

I think it's a much more subtle, dangerous racism. The kind you don't realize exists unto you really study it. That's what I mean by bias. I know it's silly, but I split the two. For no other reason than I think the change of motivation is easier for my brain to work out. 

So to reiterate, there is a bias against minorities based not solely on race but class and social structure.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

Class and social structure, in the case of minorities, is the way it is because of racism. Blatant or otherwise.

Edit: I really aught to wait until I'm home from work and not typing on a phone. Incomplete short thoughts blow.


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## flint757 (Apr 28, 2015)

I wasn't implying racism wasn't at play either. Just that making that the core of the issue ignores other factors completely (because people love simple dichotomy's) and is an immediate off switch for people in terms of trying to handle the problem. People start to literally embody the 'Us vs. Them' mindset. By saying they're just racist it not only solves nothing, but also incidentally makes people pick sides (whether they meant to or not). You'll have goodie two shoes and white people saying they deserved it or they're crazy or they're just looking to steal and other BS and some black people simply hating white people or attacking people who fit the profile of white or police (even if they aren't the type to behave like the ones that in fact are racist). What good comes out of making it the core of the issue? What good came out of Ferguson? If anything all I see is that acting out violently solves absolutely nothing. Blaming it on simple problems (as in easy to understand) also prevent any attempt at actually fixing the problem. This applies to gun regulation, healthcare reform, education, etc. as well. We've got to stop making issues so black and white (no pun intended).



MaxOfMetal said:


> ...
> So to reiterate, there is a bias against minorities based not solely on race but class and social structure.



Also, this is definitely at the heart of the issue and yes I agree Chokey that this is the case due to past and in some cases current racism.

We have an idea what the problems are and what caused them. The issue is nobody is doing anything to actually solve or reduce them, or at least it feels that way.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Class and social structure, in the case of minorities, is the way it is because of racism. Blatant or otherwise.
> 
> Edit: I really aught to wait until I'm home from work and not typing on a phone. Incomplete short thoughts blow.





flint757 said:


> I wasn't implying racism wasn't at play either. Just that making that the core of the issue ignores other factors completely (because people love simple dichotomy's) and is an immediate off switch for people in terms of trying to handle the problem. People start to literally embody the 'Us vs. Them' mindset. By saying they're just racist it not only solves nothing, but also incidentally makes people pick sides (whether they meant to or not). You'll have goodie two shoes and white people saying they deserved it or they're crazy or they're just looking to steal and other BS and some black people simply hating white people or attacking people who fit the profile of white or police (even if they aren't the type to behave like the ones that in fact are racist). What good comes out of making it the core of the issue? What good came out of Ferguson? If anything all I see is that acting out violently solves absolutely nothing. Blaming it on simple problems (as in easy to understand) also prevent any attempt at actually fixing the problem. This applies to gun regulation, healthcare reform, education, etc. as well. We've got to stop making issues so black and white (no pun intended).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## vilk (Apr 28, 2015)

Well, I mean, part of the reason cops behave the way that they do is because they are (in their present state) ultimately a far extension of the united states for profit prison industrial system. 

At some point they started being trained to sniff and snoop and poke innocent, safe, non-problematic people so as to find _something, anything_ good enough to chuck'em in a cell. And of course they were taught that these actions were merely the best thing they could do to keep a community safe.

Of course, when someone is out doing this kind of practice, this is where *racial bias* can get it and screw everything up. And that's why there is such a crazy rate of blacks in prison/ getting beat upon/ stop and frisk/ etc.

We need to (on a federal level imho) remind police officers that their job is to protect and serve. 
We need to start giving out fines for giving too many tickets that are unrelated to dangerous, violent crime. 
Start giving demerits for doing stop and frisks and finding nothing
Put in place some rules that might influence a cop to go easier on anyone and everyone that isn't_ in the act_ of committing a dangerous, violent crime.

What are some other things we could do to help this, I wonder... anyone?


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

I didn't realize how blind I was flying in this thread. Sorry, I didn't read flint's post. (I have limited time here at work.)

Racism definitely isn't the only factor. It is silly to make it strictly a white vs black thing since there definitely is more to it than that. Max has touched on a lot more of the bigger picture I think. He's made better points than I currently can at work.

Flint, I apologize again as I still haven't read your post, but I will later. I don't have much to add to this thread so I likely won't be responding though.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

I don't think doing away with pre-emptive policing as a whole will be a net benefit. I think it would be easier and better to simply decriminalize certain offenses, such as low quantity drug possession. 

The terrible prison system is partly what's keeping the poor and uneducated down. 

We also need reforms in place to help fund police forces and keep local governments solvent so they don't have to have quotas and see violations as a form of income. 

But, more than that, we just need to go into these low income, low education areas and help them create a better situation for future generations. 

We don't need to police the police nearly as much if take away the problems that create career criminals.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

Sorry for the double post. Last 5 min of break.

I actually find it weird that the media focuses on these cases where the guy resisted. Maybe because it's easier to divide people if they guy could be construed to be at fault? There was a case recently where they violently ripped and beat a man from his car. They said they found coke in the car after, but it didn't seem likely. Especially when the officer in question had been in trouble (Though aquitted) of planting coke at a past crime scene. The guy who was beat didn't make moves, had no weapon, and didn't resist.

He seems like a better candidate for the whole racist overboard cop thing. He didn't die, but he literally did nothing that could even mistakenly start the cops reaction.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

Because death sells better, especially if it's violent.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

That's true, and I think that in and of itself is criminal. Not that it shouldn't be covered, but the case I mentioned really needs to be brought more to light. I need to look it up again later to see if the guy got any legal justice. I'm embarrassed that I can't remember his name.


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## flint757 (Apr 28, 2015)

We also need a better prison reform system. The way people get treated when they get out it's no wonder they go back to doing the same things that got them arrested in the first place. We need to actually give them usable life skills for when they get back out into the real world. Some more conservative types may not approve of that from a 'they don't deserve it' standpoint, but it's a net positive result for society if we can at least get those who felt they had no choice off the career criminal track leaving only the truly nonredeemable ones in the system.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

flint757 said:


> We also need a better prison reform system. The way people get treated when they get out it's no wonder they go back to doing the same things that got them arrested in the first place. We need to actually give them usable life skills for when they get back out into the real world. Some more conservative types may not approve of that from a 'they don't deserve it' standpoint, but it's a net positive result for society if we can at least get those who felt they had no choice off the career criminal track leaving only the truly nonredeemable ones in the system.



And that's the never ending cycle we, as a country, need to man-up and break. Yeah, it's gonna be hard and yeah some folks that probably don't deserve another chance will get it, but it's better both ethically and financially for this country's future. 

Or, leave the prison system as is and fix the neighborhoods that are creating the criminals. Make quality education and childcare a priority while providing improvements to housing and infrastructure and even the poorest will be able to lift themselves up. 

Or, option three, we do both and finally stop being the laughing stock of the first world.


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## michblanch (Apr 28, 2015)

CATO Institute: In 2010 $346,512,800  Estimated amount spent on misconduct-related civil judgments and settlements. 
Excluding sealed settlements, court costs, and attorney fees.

I'll bet by now it's close to $400,000,000 or more. 

Here's an idea. 
How about making police carry their own insurance? 
Here in Houston officers personal insurance covers the patrol cars they drive. 
It stopped an incredible amount of damage and totaling of city owned vehicles. 

How about telling the police union that their pensions will now be paying out portions of lawsuits? 
I know it will never happen. But it's an idea.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

Floyd Dent was the fellow's name from the incident I mentioned. Turns out all charges against him were dropped, and the offending officer was beyond ....ed up.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

michblanch said:


> CATO Institute: In 2010 $346,512,800  Estimated amount spent on misconduct-related civil judgments and settlements.
> Excluding sealed settlements, court costs, and attorney fees.
> 
> I'll bet by now it's close to $400,000,000 or more.
> ...



I like the idea of that, but I'd hate for an officer to be hesitant to stop an offender or pursue a criminal because they don't have the money to risk. Too much grey area for me. 

Like I said, the idea is cool though.


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## flint757 (Apr 28, 2015)

One thing that would help substantially is for the police and the good citizens to not view criminals as subhuman as well. If they just saw them as regular people I sincerely doubt the police would be as gung ho for the overkill and the public would be less accepting of them behaving as such if they do. As is I see people justifying police violence just because they think less of the victim which is not okay.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 28, 2015)

flint757 said:


> One thing that would help substantially is for the police and the good citizens to not view criminals as subhuman as well. If they just saw them as regular people I sincerely doubt the police would be as gung ho for the overkill and the public would be less accepting of them behaving as such if they do. As is I see people justifying police violence just because they think less of the victim which is not okay.





Crime is usually just a symptom of a greater disease: poverty. 

Of course there are those who are inherently bad, and go beyond, but that's hardly the norm.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 28, 2015)

flint757 said:


> One thing that would help substantially is for the police and the good citizens to not view criminals as subhuman as well. If they just saw them as regular people I sincerely doubt the police would be as gung ho for the overkill and the public would be less accepting of them behaving as such if they do. As is I see people justifying police violence just because they think less of the victim which is not okay.



Keep in mind it's hard to view people as not sub-human when they lie to you constantly and disrespect you day in and day out. Being a cop is a thankless job, and it's gotten worse. 

It's a viscous cycle though. Disrespect breeds disrespect breeds disrespect, etc.


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## asher (Apr 29, 2015)

What you really need to know about Baltimore, from a reporter who&#8217;s lived there for over 30 years - The Washington Post


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 29, 2015)

asher said:


> What you really need to know about Baltimore, from a reporter whos lived there for over 30 years - The Washington Post



That article really highlights what myself and a few others have said, thanks. 

It's not blatant racism, it's a city in utter turmoil from lack of jobs and education, with a healthy amount of drug over-criminalization and poor system processing. 

Interesting to see how many black officers on the force there are. That's definitely not the norm.


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## asher (Apr 29, 2015)

Yeah, this is much more complicated than many of the other events have been.


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## asher (Apr 29, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Keep in mind it's hard to view people as not sub-human when they lie to you constantly and disrespect you day in and day out. Being a cop is a thankless job, and it's gotten worse.
> 
> It's a viscous cycle though. Disrespect breeds disrespect breeds disrespect, etc.



It's on the police to earn back the trust they've abused and squandered.

Excellent, excellent piece:



> David Simon is Baltimores best-known chronicler of life on the hard streets. He worked for The Baltimore Sun city desk for a dozen years, wrote Homicide: A Year on the Killing Streets (1991) and with former homicide detective Ed Burns co-wrote THE CORNER: A YEAR IN THE LIFE OF AN INNER-CITY NEIGHBORHOOD1 (1997), which Simon adapted into an HBO miniseries. He is the creator, executive producer and head writer of the HBO television series The Wire (20022008).



https://www.themarshallproject.org/2015/04/29/david-simon-on-baltimore-s-anguish?ref=hp-1-111


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 29, 2015)

asher said:


> It's on the police to earn back the trust they've abused and squandered.



While certainly true, the people of Baltimore need to pull thier share. You can't have one side doing all the work, that's just going to lead to more rifts. For every cop that needs to keep their temper in check and bias at the door there should be a citizen who aims to lift themselves above the drugs, booze, and poor parenting. 

I understand that it's hard, and poverty and lack of education are a terrible, widespread thing, but it is possible. Other communities have worked through it with some help. That's where the police need to come in. They need to be the crutch ready to prop the citizens up as they try climb out of the hole. 

Teams build trust.


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## Chokey Chicken (Apr 29, 2015)

asher said:


> It's on the police to earn back the trust they've abused.



Sort of. Thing is, people hate getting in trouble. It's not just police that get lied to, but anyone with authority. My store's security dude is one of the coolest people I know. The second he even hints at confronting someone, they get indignant and blatantly lie.

It's also worth mentioning that several of these cases have brought consequences on the officers. (Rightfully so.) Not every one of these cases should people side with the black fellow. I wholly believe Brown, for instance, was in the wrong. But the guy I mentioned before, and the cop who shot the other guy in the back did face harsh consequences for their actions. It's getting to the point where they can't just get away with it. Far from fixed and perfect, but it's getting better than even just a decade ago.

for the record, this particular case is going to be hard to prove to me of police innocence. Some shady .... went on.


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## TRENCHLORD (Apr 29, 2015)

Looks like we might well have another rush to judgement situation here again.

Prisoner in van said Freddie Gray was



About the looting;
Property owners are sooner or later just going to have to camp out with gun in hand, and if anyone decides to enter and loot they just need to be shot right away with no questions asked.
We need to make an example/s for looters everywhere to see.


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## flint757 (Apr 29, 2015)

That front sign in that photo on your link is so moronic. "Don't shoot and we won't loot". Yeah, because looting your NEIGHBORHOOD is totally going to get back at the police. 

Anyhow, I have no idea what really happened, but I must admit this case smells from a mile away, especially compared to the numerous others that have cropped up in the past. Hopefully they do a proper investigation, give it there all and not rush anything.


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## TRENCHLORD (Apr 30, 2015)

flint757 said:


> That front sign in that photo on your link is so moronic. "Don't shoot and we won't loot". Yeah, because looting your NEIGHBORHOOD is totally going to get back at the police.



What was she thinking when she made that sign?


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## pushpull7 (Apr 30, 2015)

I made a big thing about how bad the police were a while back and the answer I got back was "what did you do to deserve it?"

 Nobody cares unless it's a race thing.

This is all the same nonsense. You can't have it both ways. The very idea that people are constantly talking about "white people" nullifies most of what has been said. 

I don't see people protesting and looting when it's the other way around and Hispanic bangers/asian/russian mafia/etc take people out.


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## ArtDecade (Apr 30, 2015)

pushpull7 said:


> I made a big thing about how bad the police were a while back and the answer I got back was "what did you do to deserve it?"
> 
> Nobody cares unless it's a race thing.
> 
> ...



Not sure what inner cities you have been to lately... but the Russians, Asians, and Hispanics typically have stronger and safer communities than most African Americans. The African American experience is much different than the other nationalities you mentioned - because they did not come here as immigrants (in most cases). The Civil Rights movement demonstrated how much racism there is in this country. In the aftermath, that racism didn't disappear - It just went underground. And can you blame people when there is so much resentment in these communities as a result?


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## pushpull7 (May 1, 2015)

But is it really that hard to understand what I'm saying? I purposefully left out blacks to try and prove a point. 

But, since everyone wants to play the race game, I'll play 

I don't give a .... how impoverished/poor someone is, they don't have the right to kill/rape/sell drugs/make gangs/loot/etc. This idea that all white people are born with a silver spoon in their mouth is idiotic. Some people _here _(considering some of the guitars  ) but there are so many horribly poor white people. They don't go around looting when some punk kills their family.

How many people here have had a gun pointed at their head? Can I raise my hand high enough? You have no idea who I am. I never heard the n word used much when I grew up. Never understood why. It wasn't until rap/GTA/the wire/etc became "in" that I started hearing it all the time, and I lived in Nashville (a very black area) for the good part of a decade during the 90's. 

Anyways, tl/dr for most people but stop blaming things that are NOT the issue. People were assholes 1000 years ago and they'll be assholes 1000 years from now. If these inner cities are so bad, then why don't the BLACK mayors/reps do something about it. Oh....that's right, they are power hungry ....ers just like everyone else


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## ArtDecade (May 1, 2015)

pushpull7 said:


> If these inner cities are so bad, then why don't the BLACK mayors/reps do something about it. Oh....that's right, they are power hungry ....ers just like everyone else



Everything you wrote was just nullified by your last sentence. 
White or black, the government is not doing anything about it.

PS - I don't know who you are, but you are young. Because there were deep rooted problems in the black community before _rap/GTA/the wire/etc._


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## Ibanezsam4 (May 1, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> Not sure what inner cities you have been to lately... but the Russians, Asians, and Hispanics typically have stronger and safer communities than most African Americans.



And what makes a good safe community? All of those groups have a common (and pretty obvious) factor which contributes to their improved mobility when it comes to classes and generational success. 

Cohesive. Family. Structure. 

Just Google "decline of the black family" you can parse through the source of your choice (Wikipedia has the stats) and find there are enough editorial works and scholarly works on the topic. 

Crime is lower in more family-centric environments. Family is important in Asian cultures, and holds true in the Diasporas. Same for hispanic and russian (Catholic values and whatnot). 

Read this link for more context: http://yourblackworld.net/2013/03/0...rse-off-today-than-in-the-1960s-report-shows/

the economic value of families are staggering. Married couples in their 30s with aspirations for family tend to make more money. Children of working parents typically have better role models and are more driven (see class mobility). 

not having strong values leads to kids being raised with a moral system set by the lowest common denominator (The kids you tell your kids not to hang out with). 

30 plus years of family decline and this is what you get. Its patently obvious yet we society is too scared to talk about it.



ArtDecade said:


> White or black, the government is not doing anything about it.



Not true, the government on the federal and state level in Maryland have done a lot. It's just what they have done doesn't work and has contributed to the problem. 

I think I remember reading there are roughly 90 different inner city social and developmental programs in Baltimore. Maryland is rich in social services because they have one of the highest tax rates in the country. Trillions of dollars have been spent on poverty programming since the War on Poverty was declared... and yet we are left with the largest (and growing) economic gapes between classes. 

This goes back to my last point. For all its good intentions, inner city social programs have made it possible for the single mother, fatherless child culture to thrive. There is no economic incentive to pair up, combine resources, raise a family (all positive economic indicators), and create a better future. 

Government has spent itself it out in programs only to ignore the greatest economic investment society can make is in the family. I heard an analyst say once "if politicians lived the way they advocate for poor blacks, they would be broke too."

That's why I laughed when the president switched from the much needed message of "young black men need to be responsible" to "but congress needs to spend more." 

The man who was raised in the white family experience, reaped all of its benefits, turned into a raised right man (Tom Waits zinger), and he just towed the party line (it wasn't surprising, hence the laughter).


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## Grand Moff Tim (May 1, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> PS - I don't know who you are, but you are young. Because there were deep rooted problems in the black community before _rap/GTA/the wire/etc._



I might be misremembering, but I think he's at _least_ in his forties.


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## ArtDecade (May 1, 2015)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> I might be misremembering, but I think he's at _least_ in his forties.



In that case, I am very, very surprised to hear someone of his age blaming video games and music for the collapse of the African American community.


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## Chokey Chicken (May 1, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> In that case, I am very, very surprised to hear someone of his age blaming video games and music for the collapse of the African American community.



Why? Younger people aren't typically the ones to pull that card, it's generally 40, 50, 60 year olds.

Anywho, I just popped in to say that that charges are being brought on the police. Whether or not they're found guilty who knows.


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## asher (May 1, 2015)

You know what makes it really hard to keep a family together?

Those same fathers being far more likely to be harassed by the police, arrested, and receive longer and stricter (or any) sentences (even for nonviolent possession offenses) than any other group.

Thanks, War Against Some People Who Use Drugs.

Hearing Rand Paul blather about it being a "family values" and "fatherhood" problem the very same day his son gets his _third_ DUI makes me want to punch something.

Obviously, broken families help nobody. But they're a symptom, not the disease.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 1, 2015)

Ibanezsam4 said:


> And what makes a good safe community? All of those groups have a common (and pretty obvious) factor which contributes to their improved mobility when it comes to classes and generational success.
> 
> Cohesive. Family. Structure.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone is ignoring that point, just framing it differently. 

Poor familial ties are a large part of what leads to unsupervised, poorly educated, apathetic youths who grow into adults with the same characteristics and usually spiral down the path of irresponsibility and crime. 

It's a never ending cycle that desperately needs to be broken. 

I guess the biggest question here is: how? 

Obviously, as the second party of your post brings up, just mindlessly throwing money at the problem isn't going to help. Historically, while counter-intuitive, money doesn't fix poverty. 

Personally, I think education and childcare/rearing is probably the best way to fix this, mixed with a paradigm shift in role models for the adolescents. The investment is minimal, but only if parents hold up their end of the deal. 



asher said:


> Obviously, broken families help nobody. But they're a symptom, not the disease.



While I agree it's not the disease I think it's at least part of the cure.


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## flint757 (May 1, 2015)

There are loads of deadbeat dads out there who are not in jail or being harassed. As an example, my nieces father (since we're going all race here apparently, he's black). Not in jail and talks to her maybe once a year, if that. My sister talks to her more frequently, but not even close to everyday or even every week. So that token of responsibility got left on my shoulders.

The real problem is that people in these neighborhoods don't put two and two together that sex can in fact lead to children (real shocker to many apparently). When the kid pops out a lot of people in the younger demographic bolt because they're just sleeping around anyhow. Glorified sperm donors the majority of younger creeps.

While society plays a part, as does racism I'm sure, some personal accountability has to kick in at some point. 

That's not a race thing btw either, it's a class and age thing. The closer to poverty and the younger the dad is the more likely he is to be an absentee parent. Tons of relatives and grandparents raising their relatives over their parents nowadays.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 1, 2015)

asher said:


> Hearing Rand Paul blather about it being a "family values" and "fatherhood" problem the very same day his son gets his _third_ DUI makes me want to punch something.





That is funny. I guess I've been out of the news loop of late.


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## pushpull7 (May 6, 2015)

good god, it's like the sayers of the "duh, we not say"


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## pushpull7 (May 6, 2015)

ArtDecade said:


> Everything you wrote was just nullified by your last sentence.
> White or black, the government is not doing anything about it.
> 
> PS - I don't know who you are, but you are young. Because there were deep rooted problems in the black community before _rap/GTA/the wire/etc._



How about 50 and pretty sure I know a thing more about your generalization? 

If you had a clue, then you'd understand. What I do know is that people that are "assholes" act like "assholes" regardless of color 

People that care about others (and race is not an issue) care about others. It's not a difficult mathematical equation.


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## The Reverend (May 6, 2015)

Education needs to be reformed completely. Sex Ed programs need to be comprehensive, not abstinence-based. The numbers here in Texas should speak as to the uselessness of abstinence-only programs. Kids are gonna bump uglies, no matter what. So help stop kids from having kids. By definition, kids aren't equipped to handle adult issues. It becomes very difficult to create and maintain a healthy family environment when two kids (probably from non-nuclear families) try to raise their own family.

There should also be an emphasis on trade skills and vocational programs in poverty-stricken schools. Give kids a realistic, observable goal as an alternative to gangbanging and crime. Kids in the ghetto aren't stupid. They know people rarely leave the hood. Telling them that they can make it as a doctor or engineer when they see kids on buses going to magnet schools is disingenuous. If they see that they have another option, it creates motivation. Give someone a means to make money that will let them live to their thirties or not have to fear authority as much, make it the easier option, and people will gravitate towards it. 

Third, change the expectations of employers. This is perhaps the second hardest one. Along with decriminalization of drugs, employers who refuse to hire people with criminal records share a huge burden of criminal recidivism. There are a few places that will take advantage of tax programs to hire felons and people with lesser crimes on their record, but not enough. I speak of experience when I say that having a record in the digital age is a curse, and incredibly demoralizing. With no legal source of income readily available, why not go back to your criminal ways? Or in a lot of cases, get more serious with them?


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## flint757 (May 6, 2015)

What's crazy is usually how little it even matters that they have a record. Nearly every employee at my current place of employment has a felony on their record and they're some of the best workers I've ever seen. Sometimes the past is just that, the past, and employers really need to acknowledge that.

What I found out that was really interesting is that even when your record is cleared it will sometimes pop up differently when you get that info from a 3rd party. Reason being is that they received the info before it was expunged and they see no reason in eliminating it after the fact essentially. That's where the real danger of the digital age comes from. The mere accusation of a crime, and the subsequent listing of that fact online, even if expunged or acquitted, can haunt you.


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