# Would you see a band with a prerecorded rhythm section?



## Dabo Fett (Feb 19, 2017)

Quick question, would you be interested in seeing a band of two guitarists who sing play live with a prerecord drum and bass track?

Haven't been able to find a rhythm section that gels, and now that half the band is in philly and the other half is in queens it makes it hard to even look when there's a whole state in between


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## Humbuck (Feb 20, 2017)

Yes. I already have.


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## auntyethel (Feb 20, 2017)

I think it'd depend on the energy you two could put forward. There is a certain amount of 'liveness' that a drummer adds. I've seen a fairly upbeat folky-type artist who had none of his own energy, and having a prerecorded kit behind him made it really odd to watch.


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## Dabo Fett (Feb 20, 2017)

That's the whole problem. Ideally we'd at least have a drummer. Apparently they barely exist on Long Island though


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## JohnIce (Feb 20, 2017)

If the music was unique and interesting, I don't see why not. In other words, you're kind of asking the wrong question in my opinion. If the question was: "Would I need to make a 10x bigger creative effort to make an engaging live show with just two karaokeing guitar players?" then my answer would be yes. I've seen plenty of great live shows where an artist used their creativity to completely overshadow the backing tracks. But these artists didn't try to act like they were on stage with a band, they made something cool and fun with it, and the unusual lineup made it MORE memorable. But if you go up on stage with an attitude of "This is just a temporary solution out of necessity" then it'll probably be terrible for anyone watching.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 20, 2017)

Just get a scrim of a cartoon drummer and put some lights behind it. Nobody will care.


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## Rawkmann (Feb 22, 2017)

My band gigs this way with 2 guitar players and our vocalist. To be honest I think most people barely even notice we don't have a drummer until half way into our set. Hasn't been a problem, we always get great crowd response.


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## Rachmaninoff (Feb 22, 2017)

Dabo Fett said:


> Quick question, would you be interested in seeing a band of two guitarists who sing play live with a prerecord drum and bass track?



No. The dynamics of a full-member band are completely different, personally I don't like watching playbacks.


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## thebrokeguitarist (Feb 24, 2017)

I don't care how many people are on stage with you if you can engage me as an audience member and what IS being played live is authentic. But that's IMO.

Also, writing good songs helps.


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## zenshin (Feb 25, 2017)

GunpointMetal said:


> Just get a scrim of a cartoon drummer and put some lights behind it. Nobody will care.



I actually like this idea...

Personally, I'd go with a cutout of Chuck Norris and stick it behind a borrowed drum kit. Make something fun out of it (if that's the vibe your performance is going for of course).


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## LeviathanKiller (Feb 26, 2017)

* _immediately pictures this on stage _*


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## xwmucradiox (Mar 7, 2017)

There are plenty of awesome bands that do this but it can go wrong really fast. HIRS, Cloacal Kiss, and Ghengis Tron are all unique variations on that idea. The best results come from fast tempos and short sets. If you're up there playing long melodic parts it wont be as interesting to people. .... it that goes for most bands anyway.


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## olejason (Mar 9, 2017)

It would have to be something really different, unique, and good. Standard metal, djent, meshuggah, etc. no way I'd watch that.


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## bostjan (Mar 9, 2017)

You're in Philly, a huge town? Hang in there and you'll find a drummer.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 9, 2017)

The epitomy of this, to me, is Buckethead:

For as much of a fan of Buckethead as I considered myself, I walked out halfway through one of his 2012 concerts: Two hours late to the stage, no opening act, no band. The guy just hit "play" on his iPod and played the same Youtube and DVD-documented set he'd been doing for 10 years, then occasionally broke into his "I'm 42 and doing the robot" shtick between songs. Even a Branson audience would have been disappointed.

Having other musicians or even a designated speaker would have made all the difference, but he apparently needs to keep travel costs as light as possible, if he's ever going to afford a custom toilet mounted four feet off the ground.


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## Randy (Mar 9, 2017)

Ed Sheeran has no problem selling tickets and dropping panties with a looped rhythm section.


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## ZXIIIT (Mar 9, 2017)

That's my current setup, although it's just me on guitar and vocals, still looking for other reliable members. Drums, keys, bass and rhythm guitar parts are on a backing track, I do all the leads and vocals. The crowd is meh about it, but in the end, they appreciate the music.

Here is a short live clip
https://twitter.com/ZombieThe13th/status/839943596400746496

Here is the studio version of the same song.


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## bostjan (Mar 9, 2017)

Randy said:


> Ed Sheeran has no problem selling tickets and dropping panties with a looped rhythm section.



Solo acoustic folky pop is a much better context for that than hard rock/metal. 

There have been an abundance of these threads lately. I don't know each and every situation, but, speaking honestly, and very broadly:

I think a lot of these bands are just too eager. In the old days, you found the right people, rehearsed your ass off, then booked shows. Most projects never made it past the "find the right people" phase. But honestly, these guys are killing opportunities for the rest of us. At heavy risk of sounding like the "get off my lawn" old man, here's where I am coming from.

I played in a kick-ass cover band. We had a decent following locally, and were looking to branch out. At the time, there weren't many other bands in the area, and we had a lot of cool opportunities.

Then a booking agent came into town and got agreements with a lot of the places where we played. This guy mostly booked college bands and younger guys who were just getting started. A few of these bands were incredibly talented, but had little business sense. So, it seemed like a great idea. Our band now had to book through this guy, and he was pretty cool with us, but it cost us - we'd book a place we had played two months ago for $400, but now the offer to play there was $200. We balked at the half price thing, and the booker said he would talk to the owner and try to get $250 for us, and we said "no." (We could play somewhere else for $400, so why bother with $250?) A few days later, the owner calls us and asked us to play there for $350. "So what gives?" we asked. The guy says, "Well, I don't know about this booking thing. One night we get a guy with a banjo and another guy with a snare drum, the next night, we get what we think is a full band, and it's all prerecorded stuff. If I wanted to get a jukebox, I would have just bought a damn jukebox." Eventually, he fired the booking guy and just went to bands directly.

See, it depends on the genre. If you are going for high-energy stuff, you want pounding drums, thumping bass, and buzzsaw guitars. If you want to dance, you want a solid drumbeat, pumping bass, and strummy guitars, and maybe some horns. I think people are okay with some substitution, like a keyboard instead of some horns, but I really really don't think most audiences are willing to forego the drums and bass under the expectation of a full band.

I've seen some guys pull of the one-man-band thing, but, ... I've seen the same guys who pull off a one-man-band thing with a full band, and it sounded 10000x better.

So, what is happening?

A lot of these guys are just eager eager eager to play out. If you are not ready, you are not ready. If you are not ready and you think prerecorded tracks will make you ready, you are wrong. If you are ready, but you just can't find the guys to do your thing with you, that's something else, but you need to be ready to stand alone with your music, not stand behind your music. Do you dig? If I see two guys singing and playing guitar with a backing track, the *only* way that will be the least bit entertaining would be if it was entertaining without the prerecorded tracks, and then you added the prerecorded tracks as an accent. Once you are dependent upon them, the whole thing collapses under its own weight.

At first I was pretty much like "yeah, do whatever you want to put out there," but after watching the music scene in this small town take some damage because of a widespread expectation of poor behaviour, I have to say something.

I hope this doesn't come off condescending toward the OP's music, since I don't know anything about that specific situation, but I hope the bigger message here gets through to somebody out there.

And, as I said before, you guys in big cities have no excuse. There are hundreds of drummers and bass players around you hungry for work. Maybe the next guy you try out is not the right guy, but, if you are playing music that needs bass and drums, for Pete's sake, get a drummer! I know a lot of really good drummers who will even work for beer, pizza, or gas money. Just keep looking.


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## vividox (Mar 9, 2017)

To me it just comes down to the music. If I want to see the band, I'll go; if I don't, I won't. It doesn't really bother me when instrument(s) are played on computer and only parts are the performance are played live. Especially in most guitar-centric bands, I'm mostly there to see the guitarist anyway, so if the stick monkey isn't in the back, no biggie.

I get the "get off my lawn" sentiment about performance and rehearsal and practice and blood and sweat and tears, but honestly, I'd rather see something rather than nothing. If throwing a backing track into a live performance is easy and it gets more live music out there, more power to it.


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## Demiurge (Mar 10, 2017)

It would be great to earnestly believe that if the music is good then nothing else matters, but there's just that presentation aspect of a live show that must be satisfied. I don't think that prerecorded parts are a total deal-breaker, but there's that uphill battle to get people's attention and to not look either incomplete or like a metal version of a happy hour lounge act.

The best solution, of course, is to get a live rhythm section. If not, get something to 'fill' the stage with, maybe a video element. Or- not sure how do-able it would be- would be to rig the backing track to where certain parts were broken-down into sampled stems that were triggered by a sample pad that could be played live and incorporated into the show.


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## vividox (Mar 10, 2017)

Yeah, that's a good point, and makes me realize that in my comment I was assuming more of a not-well-known band in a small-ish venue. No drummer or rhythm section isn't a big deal if I'm just checking out a local artist in a place that holds 100-200 people. That's the situation where I'd rather see something rather than nothing. But the bigger the band or the bigger the venue, the more expectations get baked in. I'm probably somewhere between Demi's comments and my own.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 10, 2017)

Being in bands with partial lineups (no vocals in one, no bass in the other), I say do whatever you need to do to get the music out there. I think having something on stage, even if its just a mesh scrim with lights behind it, will make a difference. If my main project disbands, I'll be out there with my laptop and my guitar playing as much as I can! wouldn't even try to find a band. It's a lot easier scheduling/organizing/arranging music when you never have to wait for replies from other people, verify opinions, or deal with several personalities.


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## bostjan (Mar 10, 2017)

GunpointMetal said:


> Being in bands with partial lineups (no vocals in one, no bass in the other), I say do whatever you need to do to get the music out there. I think having something on stage, even if its just a mesh scrim with lights behind it, will make a difference. If my main project disbands, I'll be out there with my laptop and my guitar playing as much as I can! wouldn't even try to find a band. It's a lot easier scheduling/organizing/arranging music when you never have to wait for replies from other people, verify opinions, or deal with several personalities.



Lots of bands don't have a vocalist. The key is to make music that works that way. 9x out of 10, I'd rather see a band play instrumentals than to play along to a prerecorded vocal track. If you are doing something industrial, then, by all means, throw in some TR-808 with some bass samples or sequences, or whatever, but it's cool if it fits the music. If, for example, when Mike left Dream Theater, and the band said "f... it, we'll just play to a pre-recorded drum track," it would have been a disaster.

My point is not to discourage people to use prerecorded tracks, but rather to discourage people from replacing a real person with a prerecorded track. Obviously IMO, YMMV, , etc, but in a metal band with a brutal pounding rhythm section, you want real people.

Your last comment drives home my point. You don't want to deal with musicians. I get that - I have had a lot of issues with drummers not showing up for the gig, or showing up after the gig, or, if I'm lucky, showing up super late for the gig. And I've dealt with plenty of bass players who didn't want to learn the song, or didn't show up for the gig, or whatever. I know it's a huge risk. But, here's the thing - dealing with drummers and bass players is like the perfect practice for dealing with your fans later on. If you can't deal with a drummer, how are you going to deal with the drunk who thinks he should be playing your guitar between sets, or the homeless guy who wants to help you lug your stuff into the back door of the club while he's puking, or the woman who gets the idea to rush the stage and sing along with you? Music is all about making sounds, but the music scene is all about connections. If you can't get musicians interested enough in your band to want to sign up, how are you going to get your audience to get fired up about becoming a part of your music?! There's just so much about the philosophy of what live music is that doesn't jive with me when you incorporate the idea of replacing a musician with a recording.

But yeah, if you are going to go the route of prerecorded tracks, you are going to go that route. And we can talk about how to do it tastefully or not, but, the OP hasn't even come back to the thread since post 4.


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## T-Bone (Mar 12, 2017)

I'm in the same kind of situation as you. I'm working on a two man project at the mo, just live guitars and vocals, drum tracks and no bass. It's a lot easier to get things done with less people slowing the process down.
I'd always give any band a chance no matter if they have no drummer or even if they have 10 drummers and no guitars.
What matters is that the band just doesn't suck, but that is always just gonna come down to the personal taste of whoever is watching.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 13, 2017)

T-Bone said:


> I'm in the same kind of situation as you. I'm working on a two man project at the mo, just live guitars and vocals, drum tracks and no bass. It's a lot easier to get things done with less people slowing the process down.
> I'd always give any band a chance no matter if they have no drummer or even if they have 10 drummers and no guitars.
> What matters is that the band just doesn't suck, but that is always just gonna come down to the personal taste of whoever is watching.



I'd much rather see a tight, well-rehearsed show of one or two dudes than 5 dudes that are sloppy or volume-fighting, or obviously at different skill levels. I've been dealing with the realities of multiple personalities in bands forever, and seen enough of the one and two-man projects to have some idea of how I would go about it to make it interesting. I like playing with the dudes I play with now, but I'm not about to try and hunt down guys that wanna play near-total linear music with all sorts of weird time signatures and riff structures again, knowing full well it will take at least year to find 4-5 guys that even WANT to do, let alone BE ABLE to actually do it.


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## bostjan (Mar 13, 2017)

GunpointMetal said:


> I'd much rather see a tight, well-rehearsed show of one or two dudes than 5 dudes that are sloppy or volume-fighting, or obviously at different skill levels. I've been dealing with the realities of multiple personalities in bands forever, and seen enough of the one and two-man projects to have some idea of how I would go about it to make it interesting. I like playing with the dudes I play with now, but I'm not about to try and hunt down guys that wanna play near-total linear music with all sorts of weird time signatures and riff structures again, knowing full well it will take at least year to find 4-5 guys that even WANT to do, let alone BE ABLE to actually do it.



I hear you. The fact of the matter is, though, that the guy who puts in his time to find 3-4 other people to play that kind of music with him is going to either be rewarded for his perseverance or else his band will break up before he has a chance to get it off the ground.

There is always something that comes along to rip things apart, but you just regroup and push ahead. There are thousands and thousands of talented musicians out there. It's a shame so few of them get along with each other. 

Don't get me wrong, either, I'm not trying to jab at guys who bust their butts out there trying to make it as a solo guitar player with backing tracks, but just being brutally honest, it doesn't generally have the "cool factor" of a real band. Take, for example, the HAARP Machine guy, Al Mu'umin. Watching him rip through some crazy complex riffs with backing tracks is pretty cool to me, as a guitar player, but his energy being pretty focused on the mechanics of playing, and the lack of pretty much everything else going on keeps it down to a really limited audience. Plus, who wouldn't rather see the full band perform?

If you are into the sort of complex aggressive music I am into, then it really needs a lot of energy, and I would highly recommend getting a full band together.

And, no offense, just trying to be helpfully persuasive and honest, the line of thinking that it's just too difficult to find people is a sort of cop-out excuse. It's a valid point, but when other bands are successful doing it, it makes the validity kind of unimportant.

The larger point I've been trying to make here is to develop your music to the point where it is really ready before taking it on tour. I don't speak for all club owners, obviously, but it's no stretch of the imagination that they'd rather have full bands booked than two guys with a backing track. More band members means more energy and more networking, both of which equate to more business.

And everything I said goes out the window if you have an ace in the hole. But before you tell yourself that your music is your ace in the hole, really stop to think about that.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 13, 2017)

Everybody thinks Djent is tech and actually literally ....s their pants when they have to try and memorize 13 consecutive measures with alternation time signatures that don't just repeat the same staccato groove, or they all want to shred Jason Richardson-style arpeggios over everything (which is boring and sounds stupid 99% of the time). Would I rather put a band together, sure, do I wanna hear what anyone else has to say, organize 4-5 schedules for performing, deal with the one or two guys that don't want to practice on their own....after the last 17 years...no f'n way...


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## ZXIIIT (Mar 14, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I hear you. The fact of the matter is, though, that the guy who puts in his time to find 3-4 other people to play that kind of music with him is going to either be rewarded for his perseverance or else his band will break up before he has a chance to get it off the ground.
> .



I think that person would be "rewarded' when he can do the music he wants to do regardless of having to find other people to do it.


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## mongey (Mar 14, 2017)

personally if i liked the artist/band I'd go see them.

I have seen planet of hip hop acts with no bands. 

anything can be done well 

as for actually being teh artist and playing to a backing track , I have done a little of it with a couple projects and its just not as fun as locking in together and being a well polished unit . having bandmates you gel with is allot more fun


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## ZXIIIT (Mar 14, 2017)

mongey said:


> as for actually being teh artist and playing to a backing track , I have done a little of it with a couple projects and its just not as fun as locking in together and being a well polished unit . having bandmates you gel with is allot more fun



Agreed, but if you couldn't find said members, should that/would that stop you from performing live?


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## mongey (Mar 14, 2017)

Zombie13 said:


> Agreed, but if you couldn't find said members, should that/would that stop you from performing live?



if it was a special gig or a one off or something I'd be fine with it, but as a regular gigging deal at this stage I wouldn't. 

but each their own I wouldn't trash anyone who chooses to perform that way, like you do . its just not for me


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## JohnIce (Mar 14, 2017)

bostjan said:


> And, no offense, just trying to be helpfully persuasive and honest, the line of thinking that it's just too difficult to find people is a sort of cop-out excuse. It's a valid point, but when other bands are successful doing it, it makes the validity kind of unimportant.



 Since it's impossible to know the amount of would-be successful acts who never got anywhere due to bad group dynamics or years of compromise and happy mediums for the sake of team spirit, that's not a very good argument. You could just as easily say: "too many great songwriters get stuck going in circles with the wrong band members" as an indication that going solo is a better option.

I think if you compare bands to solo artists, DJs, EDM producers and rappers, it seems to me the musicians who've been really winning in the smartphone era of the last few years are clearly not the bands. The flexibility of calling your own creative shots and having a light weight, portable live act just seems to be a lot more lucrative.


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## bostjan (Mar 15, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> Since it's impossible to know the amount of would-be successful acts who never got anywhere due to bad group dynamics or years of compromise and happy mediums for the sake of team spirit, that's not a very good argument. You could just as easily say: "too many great songwriters get stuck going in circles with the wrong band members" as an indication that going solo is a better option.
> 
> I think if you compare bands to solo artists, DJs, EDM producers and rappers, it seems to me the musicians who've been really winning in the smartphone era of the last few years are clearly not the bands. The flexibility of calling your own creative shots and having a light weight, portable live act just seems to be a lot more lucrative.



No, it's a totally valid point. How many heavy metal acts made it famous with a full band versus how many heavy metal acts made it famous as two guys with guitars and backing tracks?

Equating two guys with guitars and backing tracks to DJs is not a valid logical substitution, since they are totally different types of appeal. In other words, the folks who show up/stick around for the DJ are not the same folks who show up/stick around for the guitar man with the backing tracks. At least not anywhere I've been.

As I have said and reiterated over and over, I've seen the backing track thing work in some circumstances, and I've seen it totally not work in plenty more circumstances.

As much as I'd love to just universally encourage people to get out there with their music, there is a rock solid value in having that music ready for mass consumption before putting it out in most venues. It might be different in different places, but I guarantee that if your reason for not presenting a full band boils down to "it's too much work to find the right people," you are going to be held back at least a little. 

Conversely, if your reason for using backing tracks is to add something extra to music that's already interesting and complete, then I don't see anyone having a problem with it.

It's not the attitude itself, but if we are talking about the lack of a rhythm section being a symptom of the attitude, then I just don't see there being other symptoms of the same attitude that could reflect poorly on your entire package.

I'm sorry if that comes off as pretentious. I don't intend it to be, but I realize it does come off that way. I've been doing music for 20+ years now, and I've seen pretty much everything, and I've seen how audiences react to pretty much everything. I've seen bands that totally kicked ass on stage, but had a poor attitude backstage, and they go nowhere. I've seen bands who sound like a trainwreck on stage, but pump up their crowd and have a positive attitude about the whole thing, and they can go very far. Bands that have a high turnover of bandmembers usually have something internally wrong, which causes them to have a difficult time treading water out there. I've been in a lot of bands myself, some for years and years, and it's all about the chemistry between people: between the frontman and the crowd, between the businessman and the venue manager, between band members, it's all extremely important, in terms of how far you can make it. I'd say it's right up there with the quality of the material you have to present to your audience.

All I'm saying is that you need to keep in mind that there are a thousand other bands out there competing for attention. If your expectation is to go out and have a good time playing for a small crowd by yourself or with a buddy, go ahead and use your backing tracks. Maybe there's a drummer in the audience who will step forward. But, as far as a long term plan, it's not going to get you very far. If you have your expectations set appropriately, everything will be fine, but if not, you will just be disappointed.

Keep in mind that this is coming from a guy whose last album sold a two-digit number of copies. My grand total works stream enough to make me enough money to buy an order of french fries once a week, ...on a good week. I'm nobody. But I've been close enough to taste it a little on a few occasions...only once when I was really working for it. Any little thing can happen... Anyway, I'm just babbling now.

I'll leave the thread with this note, which may sound like I'm a broken record:

Music is collaborative. It doesn't work in a vacuum. You collaborate with other musicians, you collaborate with your audience, you collaborate with other bands and artists. It's a huge feedback web. The more you try to cut out of that web, the more difficult it is to make it work. Each feedback loop is necessary for evolution. Every band ever who mattered was part of a scene that included a pool of >1 band and a pool of listeners who wanted to be a part of the scene as well. There are important checks and balances in that scene. That's why artists get so much flack for changing things up.


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## bhakan (Mar 15, 2017)

I'm pretty much just gonna say +1 to everything Bostjan has been saying. I don't know Horsham much, but I can tell you that there are plenty of musicians in Lansdale, Doylestown, Philly, etc. Go to shows and talk to people, you'll find musicians to play with you. 

I think if you're set on being a one man (or two man) band performing live, you should write the music around that fact. Use electronic drums and loopers and other creative ways of filling out your sound. To me that type of stuff is what separates what I perceive as one man "pretending" to be a full band and one man _being_ a full band.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 15, 2017)

bhakan said:


> I'm pretty much just gonna say +1 to everything Bostjan has been saying. I don't know Horsham much, but I can tell you that there are plenty of musicians in Lansdale, Doylestown, Philly, etc. Go to shows and talk to people, you'll find musicians to play with you.
> 
> I think if you're set on being a one man (or two man) band performing live, you should write the music around that fact. Use electronic drums and loopers and other creative ways of filling out your sound. To me that type of stuff is what separates what I perceive as one man "pretending" to be a full band and one man _being_ a full band.


I mostly agree with this. But I've also seen my fair share of one-man shows in a variety of genres from EDM to acoustic indie folk where trying to use live looping, auxiliary percussion, multiple instruments, etc. to liven up the show and then they forget to even play songs, or at least be entertaining outside of the fact of "hey look at that guy who can play 5 instruments at a mediocre level". If you can incorporate all that stuff without killing the songs (or spending three minutes looping to start a song, because that is the most boring .... ever), do it. I've seen a few shows recently of a VERY talented artist who is trying to take her stuff solo and so far the live triggering, percussion, live sampling has been killing the the show instead of helping it because sections have to longer to get from one thing to the other, the background video is kind of the whole show because she's stuck behind a mini drum rig/laptop keyboard rig, all to avoid standing doing nothing during intros before the guitar or vocals comes in.


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## JohnIce (Mar 15, 2017)

@bostjan, I get your points and I don't think you sound pretentious. I do think you sound like someone with 20+ years of experience though, and possibly imagine an audience 20 years ago too. I disagree with you more in general than in particular, because in my point of view, music is evolving. And that evolution is determined by the necessities and opportunities of today's artists, none of which are the same necessities and opportunities that existed 5, 10 or 40 years ago. This affects genres, band setups, venues and audiences alike. How metal bands succeeded in the past is more irrelevant every year, both the genre itself and the methods. The artists who can truly wrap their heads around that and come up with a good solution (musically, setup-wise and business-wise) are the ones who always win in any art form. And at the moment, the business model of blasting 120 decibels at a beer joint at the mercy of an underpaid and underqualified sound engineer named Bob, is going the way of the Dodo. People have better things to do on a Saturday evening than sitting through that.


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## Descent (Mar 15, 2017)

Short answer: NO, especially not for metal, not for rock. 

For some other genres, it works. Look at Rap, it's all one dude with an iPod. 

I saw some kind of industrial metal outfit and it kinda worked for them as they had spent $10,000 on the light show. If they didn't have that it would've been "meh". 

There's a certain aspect of human error or feel that can' be replicated with all these digital gadgets that we have. 

I also am not a huge fan of drum triggers as that allows for sloppy technique and in general sound bad but it has become a must for most metal bands.


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## ZXIIIT (Mar 15, 2017)

Descent said:


> Short answer: NO, especially not for metal, not for rock.
> 
> For some other genres, it works. Look at Rap, it's all one dude with an iPod.
> 
> ...



Not a fan of Godflesh or Samael?

I think, in the end, is if it sounds gooooooood.


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## Science_Penguin (Mar 16, 2017)

As long as the people present on stage are indeed performing, weather they're playing instruments or singing, I'm perfectly alright with parts being automated.

The real key is having energy and presence. I'd rather watch two energetic guitarists jamming out over a backing track than a full band of people standing around in their spots playing everything like they just want to get it over with.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Mar 16, 2017)

I've seen synth pop bands in places like Club Boomerang in the Haight Ashbury hood of San Francisco, and they pulled it off very, very well, but I kind of think that a metal or hard rock band isn't given as much grace to do the same, unless it's like a solo instrumental guitar player doing Satch, Vai, or Becker type of stuff.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 16, 2017)

I think anyone can get away with backing tracks, provided their energy and style of music lends itself in a direction away from (or independent of) the band dynamic:


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## bhakan (Mar 16, 2017)

GunpointMetal said:


> I mostly agree with this. But I've also seen my fair share of one-man shows in a variety of genres from EDM to acoustic indie folk where trying to use live looping, auxiliary percussion, multiple instruments, etc. to liven up the show and then they forget to even play songs, or at least be entertaining outside of the fact of "hey look at that guy who can play 5 instruments at a mediocre level". If you can incorporate all that stuff without killing the songs (or spending three minutes looping to start a song, because that is the most boring .... ever), do it. I've seen a few shows recently of a VERY talented artist who is trying to take her stuff solo and so far the live triggering, percussion, live sampling has been killing the the show instead of helping it because sections have to longer to get from one thing to the other, the background video is kind of the whole show because she's stuck behind a mini drum rig/laptop keyboard rig, all to avoid standing doing nothing during intros before the guitar or vocals comes in.


It's definitely really hard to pull off well, but that's sort of the nature of live performances. Putting together a band takes a lot of hard work. Writing/performing songs with loops takes a lot of hard work. There's no escaping the hard work you have to put into a live performance.


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## bostjan (Mar 17, 2017)

JohnIce said:


> @bostjan, I get your points and I don't think you sound pretentious. I do think you sound like someone with 20+ years of experience though, and possibly imagine an audience 20 years ago too. I disagree with you more in general than in particular, because in my point of view, music is evolving. And that evolution is determined by the necessities and opportunities of today's artists, none of which are the same necessities and opportunities that existed 5, 10 or 40 years ago. This affects genres, band setups, venues and audiences alike. How metal bands succeeded in the past is more irrelevant every year, both the genre itself and the methods. The artists who can truly wrap their heads around that and come up with a good solution (musically, setup-wise and business-wise) are the ones who always win in any art form. *And at the moment, the business model of blasting 120 decibels at a beer joint at the mercy of an underpaid and underqualified sound engineer named Bob, is going the way of the Dodo.* People have better things to do on a Saturday evening than sitting through that.



Things are always in flux. But there are some aspects of a metal band that are more fluid than others. As long as we are talking about metal, I really think that guitar, bass, and drums are the mainstays that are not really going to change without changing whether or not it's metal.

On the other hand, a guy who gets up by himself with an acoustic guitar at a coffee shop and plays covers of Cannibal Corpse and Bolt Thrower is pretty entertaining.

As for the beer joint, in general, at least in my neighbourhood, it's already gone. When I moved here 7 years ago, there were a dozen bars in this town and the two nearest towns. None of them had live music. Then they suddenly all had live music. Then, 75% of them went out of business. It's a combination of things. Little of it had to do with Bob, the errant sound engineer, but, I hate to say it, the music scene here had a lot to do with it.

I saw it a lot, myself. I'd go out specifically to see a metal band play at a local bar. I really don't care to drink there, but I have to do some business with the establishment to keep them in business, so I have one beer. I enjoy the metal show and have a great time, but, on the other hand, most of the bar's regular patrons, who would have been drinking dozens of drinks, leave, because the music is too loud and obnoxious for them. When it's not the metal show, but it's Folks 'R Us or the band of septuagenarian Beatles impersonators, the same basic problem applied: some people would rather sit there and drink with nothing else going on than put up with music they don't like, and, well, those bands are often not well received by general audiences, to put it politely.

So #1, most of those establishments already went the way of the Dodo, on my end of the experience, but #2, these bands using backing tracks contributed to that. I had seen, on dozens of occasions, rock/punk/metal acts with a prerecorded band, and a solo guy, playing at a bar or a club, and saw people come in the door, turn around, and leave.

So, whichever the case, if the line of thinking is that music venues are evaporating, and therefor the venues that are left are more apt to accept acts that play a style of music engineered for a full band, but using prerecorded tracks, then I question the logic getting from A to B.

I might be totally wrong. Maybe I'm not thinking "ahead," but unless there is a reason to change the thinking, then the logic that the same rules don't apply, therefor the opposite rules apply, then it's an error in thinking. For example, if you've only ever hit nails with a hammer, and someone hands you a screw, it doesn't mean use the other end of the hammer.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 17, 2017)

The music scene didn't close down bars, bars that don't know how to operate with what they're working with close down. For me personally, I don't see the difference in a two man show that's guitar/drums or bass/drums and a two man show that's vocals and guitar with backtracks, or two guitars and backtracks, etc and those shows do just fine around here (as long as the artists/promoters handle advertising just a little bit). Unless I'm seeing SunnO or Jucifer or something where sheer volume is part of the show, I'd much rather see one guy with controllable stage volume and tight playing than 4-5 guys battling for level over a live drum kit (not saying every metal band does this...but every metal band does this, lol) or 4 guys that are on and that bass player that just can't stay on top of the drums, etc.


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## bostjan (Mar 17, 2017)

GunpointMetal said:


> The music scene didn't close down bars, bars that don't know how to operate with what they're working with close down. For me personally, I don't see the difference in a two man show that's guitar/drums or bass/drums and a two man show that's vocals and guitar with backtracks, or two guitars and backtracks, etc and those shows do just fine around here (as long as the artists/promoters handle advertising just a little bit). Unless I'm seeing SunnO or Jucifer or something where sheer volume is part of the show, I'd much rather see one guy with controllable stage volume and tight playing than 4-5 guys battling for level over a live drum kit (not saying every metal band does this...but every metal band does this, lol) or 4 guys that are on and that bass player that just can't stay on top of the drums, etc.



Three of the bars, in particular had been around for decades and were under the same management the entire time until they closed. A bunch more had been around just as long, but had gone through minor changes. There were a number of factors at play, but there is no doubt that the recent influx of unprepared musical acts had a role in at least a few closures. I wouldn't say it was the absolute biggest factor, but between crackdowns on bars in general, it sure seemed like the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

And to be clear, I'm not just talking about one-man-bands here, but, in general, unrehearsed and unorganized shows, of which many of these Vermont-millenial-generation-style-one-man-bands were a substantial portion. As I pointed out, though, there were plenty of older dudes starting up bands as well, who simply weren't playing music people wanted to hear, even in the background. For the record, the louder full band shows over the two years prior to the mass bar closings here were always 10x+ better attended than the stuff I'm picking on.

IDK, though, some music just doesn't really have "general appeal" to any particular demographic, and that's really what the problem was with the music scene. The scene here honestly went from dead to vibrant to completely dead. The only shows left now are basement parties, bonfires (obviously not this time of year), and cover bands in the one bar that still does live music. The more chill one-man shows go over well at coffee shops and pizzarias, which is great, but metal-esque music just doesn't really work in that context.

Just to drive this home, here are some of the music venues here that either shut down or stopped having music in my area (population of my town is about 8k):

Phat Kats: Operated for >10 years under the same management, was a favourite hang-out. Shut down due to noise complaints. You honestly couldn't hear the bands from outside of the building above a quiet conversation. Pretty much everyone I know suspects it was political.

The Packing House: Operated for >10 years. Was a major music venue in town, then stopped having live music when the scene died. Continued operating without music for a few years, then shut down just weeks after bringing back live acts.

The Stage: Newer music venue. Operated for 2-3 years. Shut down due to lack of business.

The Dawg House: Operated for ~5 years. Stopped having bands due to noise complaints.

The Whiskey Den: Newer venue. Went from live bands to DJ's, because too many bands were scaring off business.

The Pub Outback: Operated for many years as a favourite hangout for middle- and upper-class. Started having bands. Quickly got a reputation as the place that had bad bands and very suddenly closed down after that.

The Taproom: This bar has a huge ampitheater-style stage and dancefloor, but doesn't use it anymore due to too many customer complaints.

Parker Pie: Pizza place with a bar. Still operates as such, but stopped having live music, despite having a separate staging area.

Brewski's: Was a very popular place for people to go see bands. Huge stage area. Shut down due to owner illness, but was already planning on shutting down due to lack of business.

Jasper's: Long time bar under consistent management. Still operates, but very rarely has live music, and I don't know the circumstances.

The Lake House: Same management for eons, always a place to see live music. Under some sort of legal stress now, doesn't seem to currently have bands.

Parker Pie Wings: A bar/restaurant at the airport that was billed as a live music place. It was a cool place, but it didn't seem like anyone there ever stuck around once the band started playing. It's closed now, due to lack of business to cover building repairs.

Sweet Harmony: pretty much the last consistent music venue within a practical drive from me.

The Dusty Bottle: Out of the way bar that might have bands. Last time I saw any word of a band playing there was October-ish.

The Church: An old converted church that has metal bands, but doesn't seem to advertise by anything other than word of mouth, and I know most of the bands who played there last year, personally, and no one seems to know what's going on with the place now.

That's what, 15 music venues within a 90-ish minute drive of me. 10 of them closed, and only one is consistently doing anything in the music scene still. 2-3 years ago all of these places were bumping. Is that a changing of a generation?

No, I think it's politics. People don't like bars. People don't like alcoholics. But what about the places that had music, but didn't serve alcohol? I think the general population doesn't like music anymore.  I think this happened because places opened their doors up to too many unvetted bands and artists. I think I have solid observations that proved this: A place is busy, a band starts playing, and people leave, then the place is empty.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 17, 2017)

Again, though, that's on the bars to organize music to keep themselves in business. If nobody is going to see ANY bands, stop having bands. Obviously if a band isn't ready to play out, they shouldn't, but venues don't have to book bands that play once and kill the room. If its four hours of covers and everone is leaving, you misunderstood your customer base (as a bar owner) and hired the wrong band. If you're a venue owner and you're doing original shows, and you keep bringing in bands that don't advertise, or never do any advertising of your own, that's again, the fault of the person setting up the shows. Admittedly I live in a place that has quite a few more people, but when there are shows, the bands get out and advertise to bring the right crowd to the venue the day of, and when bars book cover bands THEY advertise well in advance, again, to get the people in the door that want to see that stuff. Poor management is what killed those bars off, not the music scene. Doesn't really matter how long a place has been around.


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