# How much money do metal bands/musicians make in a year?



## Mindcrime1204

Just as the title says, how much money do you think some of your favorite bands/musicians make in a year? Like one of mine, Symphony X - I know that they tour globaly but I doubt Michael Romeo is going back home to a million dollar house with a Ferrari in the garage as much as he may deserve to...

How about Nevermore, Necrophagist, or DRAGONFORCE?(no, I dont really care for DF, but there is no denying their shoot to stardom in the last year)


On the other hand...how about a band like Iron Maiden who has been around the globe a million times? They appear to be THE biggest metal band in the world. How much do you think Dickinson makes in a year after touring, having cds sold, merchandise and other stuff?


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## jacksonplayer

Newer "underground" metal bands like SymX and Nevermore barely make enough to avoid having day jobs and still support a family, if they're lucky. Those two bands are at the top of the heap and probably do better than most. Most metal bands these days are either living at starvation level or have day jobs.

Bands like Maiden and Priest are way different, since they were much bigger to begin with back in the '80s. I would guess that each member of those bands gets at least a nice six-figure income when the bands are active. Most of the money comes from touring income, not album sales. And that doesn't include royalties from the back catalog, obviously, which they would get even if they were retired.


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## MikeH

Whitechapel? Hardly anything. Probably just enough for 6 dudes to get by. But if you aren't making any money and you're still out there playing every night and giving it 110&#37;, that's true musicianship.


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## 7 Strings of Hate

jacksonplayer said:


> Newer "underground" metal bands like SymX and Nevermore barely make enough to avoid having day jobs and still support a family, if they're lucky. Those two bands are at the top of the heap and probably do better than most. Most metal bands these days are either living at starvation level or have day jobs.



this might be true, but i have trouble believing it. I wouldnt say they are making a killing or anything, but i would bet its decent or else no one would do it.


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## elrrek

Any member of Iron Maiden makes shed loads of money, loads off touring and merchandise licensing, probably a fair bit off record sales as well seeing as they are one of the biggest bands in the world so we are talking $100,000s a year I guess.

Dragonforce are probably making a bit of cash at the moment but whether that will last on a sustainable career, who knows ... they may be just a passing fad. Nevermore are probably in a similar position in that they don't need to run out and get day jobs and are probably comfortably supported by their band so I'm guessing $10,000s per year. 

Necrophagist, I would be surprised if the touring members (are they touring members of full time?) didn't have day jobs they have to go back to following protracted recording or touring. Smaller bands, which pretty much means any "new" metal band with less than 3 records out who haven't just "exploded" and even bands that have had 4 and 5 albums out on smaller record labels are regularly only touring when they can get a break from work or actually quit jobs so that they can tour and these bands probably make less that $10,000 a year between them. Cult of Luna for example have 5 records out via earache and one of the vocalists sometimes to go home before the end of tours so that he can keep his day job in (I believe) a hospital. Mastodon were still pulling day jobs when their first record came out on Relapse for example.

On a related issue, if you haven't seen this it's a very good read: The Famous Steven Albini rant


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## John_Strychnine

7 Strings of Hate said:


> this might be true, but i have trouble believing it. I wouldnt say they are making a killing or anything, but i would bet its decent or else no one would do it.



Believe it, you make Fuck all.


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## ToTheCore92

most bands make around 200 bucks maybe?? it depends on the venue more or less, which is spent on gas to get to next show and food and cords etc.. they really dont make enough to really leasure themselves. most of them do it for the love of the music and the fans.. that would be enough for me.


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## liquidcow

I imagine that most bands don't make nearly as much money as people think they do. Only the really big ones like Metallica, Megadeth, Iron Maiden etc are rolling in it. I did read an interview with Mikael Akerfeldt where he said he'd just about gotten to the point where he could live off what he earns from music, and that's after 8 or 9 albums, also bearing in mind that he has a wife with a good job.

I'm sure I remember hearing that Derek Roddy left Hate Eternal because he earned a total of $300 from it in a year and decided to teach instead.


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## guy_in_a_band357

Mindcrime1204 said:


> Just as the title says, how much money do you think some of your favorite bands/musicians make in a year? Like one of mine, Symphony X - I know that they tour globaly but I doubt Michael Romeo is going back home to a million dollar house with a Ferrari in the garage as much as he may deserve to...



I know the keyboardist works at guitar center, we opened for them one night and he was runing late, we where joking with the other guys that he must of had to "lock up", lol.

I can also say that most "big label" more mainstream bands such as Dragonforce, Killswitch Engaged, Trivium and so on, all make over 100,000 per member.


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## loktide

most 'underground' bands make their money through touring and playing gigs, and occasionally selling merchandise at gigs. I'm talking about bands that play in club with an average of 500-1000 people... Depending on how good the record/distribution deal of a 'signed' band is, they may cover the whole expenses for the production of a cd, or just the distribution, leaving the production costs to the band. 

Ever wondered why the first release of enemies of reality by nevermore sounded like crap ?

anyway, here in germany bands like Heaven Shall Burn get about 1500-2000  (roughly estimated) for playing a gig, and they do about 4 gigs a month. And they recorded their last CD on the guitarists studio. You do the math 


Anyway, the short answer to your question would be: not enough to make a living off it. Unless you're a solo artist, playing such gigs. In a band, all income is split obviously.


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## liquidcow

7 Strings of Hate said:


> this might be true, but i have trouble believing it. I wouldnt say they are making a killing or anything, but i would bet its decent or else no one would do it.



This is precisely the thing, people _will_ do it. I'm finding the same thing with the film industry at the moment, if it's a job that people really want to do, you can't expect to make any money because there is always someone else out there who will do what you do for free. Film makers and record companies can get away without paying much, or anything, because people will still do it. Technically there are guidelines to try and stop this, but when the people doing the job are themselves willing to ignore that then it makes no difference.


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## 7 Strings of Hate

ok, so the venue at my place around here is pops. everybody and their brother comes through. most charge about 20 bucks a ticket. lets say that they only get 3 bucks a ticket out of the 20, multiply that by 2000 people, thats 6000 grand. not to mention tee shirts, cd.. ect.
now of course they have to pay for the tour and i suppose the record label to pay for the cd they recorded. multiply the 6000 by 50 shows or so and thats 300000 grand. like i said, they have to pay off things of course, but i'm willing to bet that MOST of the well known metal bands at least make 20000 grand a year or so. 
The reason i say that real bands woudnt do this for nothing is that these days you can make a shit ton of money giving lessons and things like that, not to mention that you can pretty much record a professional quality cd for next to nothing today in the privacy of your own home.

once again, i might be wrong, but i honostly cant see how a. a well known metal act could make the few hundred bucks some are claiming, and b. why a multimillion/billion dollar a year record label would even bother if they barley made their money back


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## Ze Kink

You really have to work your ass off (play hundreds of shows a year etc.) to earn enough to live doing just that without having a day job. I think even everyone in Testament have got a day job.


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## Elysian

i've talked to Kris from Darkest Hour on this exact subject. when Undoing Ruin came out, he was making about 50k a year, but touring almost the entire time. thats the last time i really asked him about it, and now he's not even in the band, so who knows.


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## elrrek

Read the article I posted about bands and major labels and you'll see the economic breakdown and where the bands make no money.

And in answer to your questions:
a: by well known metal act do you mean a band you know or a band that gets significant coverage in the printed press? Necrophagist I shockingly have just found out actually only have 2 records out and have been going for well over 12 years, I would be VERY surprised to find out that they are not working day jobs.
b: the majority of multimillion/billion dollar records companies do not sign metal bands! They don't even touch metal bands, there is no money in them unless someone convinces them that "such and such" are "the next Metallica".


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## Mindcrime1204

Thanks for shedding some light on the subject fellas! I had no idea that some of my fav band members may be starving (not the case with my favorite guitar player, Romeo) or not even making as much as I thought they would be!

It upsets me a little that musicians like the guys from Trivium with their emo-boycuts and mickey-mouse riffs are making more money than the way more gifted metal musicians who obviously spent more time crafting their talents are.


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## jacksonplayer

7 Strings of Hate said:


> ok, so the venue at my place around here is pops. everybody and their brother comes through. most charge about 20 bucks a ticket. lets say that they only get 3 bucks a ticket out of the 20, multiply that by 2000 people, thats 6000 grand. not to mention tee shirts, cd.. ect. ... once again, i might be wrong, but i honostly cant see how a. a well known metal act could make the few hundred bucks some are claiming, and b. why a multimillion/billion dollar a year record label would even bother if they barley made their money back



I don't know anything about Pops, but does it really hold 2,000 people? Our local metal touring venue, Jaxx, holds well under 1,000 and probably more like 500 people. That's much more typical of the sort of venue that metal bands play in the USA. This is where top-shelf metal bands like Symphony X and Nevermore play in the Washington DC/Baltimore metro area, which is highly affluent and has over 4 million people. I believe the venues in some other areas are even smaller. 

$3 per ticket out of a 500-seat venue isn't so impressive, and that's assuming it sells out. Many venues now take a cut of the merchandise, I believe. And don't underestimate the cost of touring. Crew have to be paid. You've got hotels, meals, gas, vehicle rental, gear costs.

Bands rarely got paid well for albums, even back in the glory days of the '70s and '80s--unless you sold several million copies. Nowadays, they make a pittance at most. Even the labels are having a hard time making a profit now.

Bottom line--nobody plays metal for the money anymore, even though a few do end up making a living from it.


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## Groff

Warrel Dane and Jim Sheppard are both certified chefs, and I know they've worked jobs in between albums before.

I read in an interview somewhere with Angela from Arch Enemy, she said she makes about 900 (euro) a month.


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## jacksonplayer

Mindcrime1204 said:


> It upsets me a little that musicians like the guys from Trivium with their emo-boycuts and mickey-mouse riffs are making more money than the way more gifted metal musicians who obviously spent more time crafting their talents are.



I admire my favorite musicians all the more for it. The pop crap sells a lot and makes a lot, while the more artistically uncompromising folks struggle financially.

And that's the way it's always been. Frank Zappa told a story in his autobiography about a tour the Mothers did with a bunch of jazz bands in the late '60s. He got very disillusioned when he saw Duke Ellington trying to beg the promoter for $10 in pocket money. That was DUKE ELLINGTON, ferchrissake!!!


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## elrrek

It's funny peoples perceptions of making money in the music business. I've even played in bands where people have thought that "next year we'll be playing tours and I can quit my day job in the record store" and I'm having to hold myself back from collapsing on the floor laughing.

It's not about your music 90&#37; of the time, it's about being in the right place, at the right time, doing the right thing in front of the right person and then you might get a chance of making some money out of your "art" and the facts are what you think is art is really just product for marketing.

My favourit example of a well known metal act that has a day job is Scott Hull from Pig Destroyer. Okay, you might not have heard Pig Destroyer but you've probably heard of them, and as far as I know Scott Hull works for DARPA in the experimental weapons department when he's not playing grind guitar with a psychopath for a vocalist.


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## hairychris

I'm just remembering a conversation I had with the drummer from a UK band who sell 20,000 - 30,000 for each album release and he complained that he needed to play in 2 other bands to make ends meet.

Until you start selling big you make your money from merch and gig fees. The only people I know who've gone full time pro are playing 150+ nights a year...


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## Nick

John_Strychnine said:


> Believe it, you make Fuck all.




from the horses mouth!!


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## Mindcrime1204

They should make an MTV/VH1 episode of Cribs: The METAL edition. lolol

Though it'd prolly turn out more like a fucking poverty/relief fund...


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## elrrek

hairychris said:


> I'm just remembering a conversation I had with the drummer from a UK band who sell 20,000 - 30,000 for each album release and he complained that he needed to play in 2 other bands to make ends meet.
> 
> Until you start selling big you make your money from merch and gig fees. The only people I know who've gone full time pro are playing 150+ nights a year...



I read an article a couple of years ago that suggest from each CD sale in the UK the artist could predict getting 1 to 2 pounds. So, even at the top end of things that's 60,000 pounds spit say 4 ways (to make it a spread a bit further we'll skip a 5 piece band) so that's 15,000 a peice which, unless you are living with your Mum is not going to feed, clothe and house you in the UK in anything other than a student life style.


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## Nick

7 Strings of Hate said:


> ok, so the venue at my place around here is pops. everybody and their brother comes through. most charge about 20 bucks a ticket. lets say that they only get 3 bucks a ticket out of the 20, multiply that by 2000 people, thats 6000 grand. not to mention tee shirts, cd.. ect.
> now of course they have to pay for the tour and i suppose the record label to pay for the cd they recorded. multiply the 6000 by 50 shows or so and thats 300000 grand. like i said, they have to pay off things of course, but i'm willing to bet that MOST of the well known metal bands at least make 20000 grand a year or so.
> The reason i say that real bands woudnt do this for nothing is that these days you can make a shit ton of money giving lessons and things like that, not to mention that you can pretty much record a professional quality cd for next to nothing today in the privacy of your own home.
> 
> once again, i might be wrong, but i honostly cant see how a. a well known metal act could make the few hundred bucks some are claiming, and b. why a multimillion/billion dollar a year record label would even bother if they barley made their money back




as far as i know the labels are where the money go's.

Its making profit after paying your label fees thats the hard part.

Youd be surprised at the cost of touring. Tourbusses + drivers can cost like $500 a day in some places.


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## Sacha

Depends on what your real job is


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## troyguitar

Didn't one of the former Nevermore guitarists (I think like Tim Calvert or Steve Smyth) quit to go back to being a full-time pilot to support his family?

That ought to give you an idea.


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## badger71

Make money????  Barely enough to support yourself and definitely not enough to support a family. Most of the bands I know/have been in have to pay to play at the major live venues and to get on a tour with a national headliner runs in the tens of thousands of dollars. I was a bouncer in a club with one of the guitar players from Unwritten Law....he was a bartender to help support his family. 

Larger acts....Priest, Maiden, etc....come from a different time....before music pirating/file sharing....and they actually made some money from: merchandising, tours, and their record sales.


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## loktide

a friend of mine (guitarist and singer) supports himself and his family ENTIRELY from his career as a musician. Sadly enough, guess what? Though he's definitely a virtuous and talented musician and guitarist, he had to gave up his own music and now mainly plays popular covers at clubs and weddings as a solo artist, works as a studio guitarists for numerous pop artists, as well as a support guitarists at tours (pop music again). Still, he has a highly variable income depending on how many shows and performances he plays in a month. 
Anyway, this gives you an idea of how though it is to make 'decent' living as a guitarist in order to support a family.


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## voiceguitar

I know one of my buds that interviewed Silverstein about a year ago found out they make about 70 000 a year ( i dont follow them at all so idont know if they are bigger now or not)


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## jacksonplayer

loktide said:


> a friend of mine (guitarist and singer) supports himself and his family ENTIRELY from his career as a musician. Sadly enough, guess what? Though he's definitely a virtuous and talented musician and guitarist, he had to gave up his own music and now mainly plays popular covers at clubs and weddings as a solo artist, works as a studio guitarists for numerous pop artists, as well as a support guitarists at tours (pop music again). Still, he has a highly variable income depending on how many shows and performances he plays in a month.
> Anyway, this gives you an idea of how though it is to make 'decent' living as a guitarist in order to support a family.



And that, really, becomes nothing more than just another job. I already have one of those, and it undoubtedly pays much better than whatever I could make as a "guitarist for hire."

Even previously reliable gigs like wedding bands and studio work are becoming more precarious, as wedding parties more and more often hire DJs and everything in the studio becomes an artificial Pro Tools creation.


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## gatesofcarnage

jacksonplayer said:


> I don't know anything about Pops, but does it really hold 2,000 people? Our local metal touring venue, Jaxx, holds well under 1,000 and probably more like 500 people. That's much more typical of the sort of venue that metal bands play in the USA. This is where top-shelf metal bands like Symphony X and Nevermore play in the Washington DC/Baltimore metro area, which is highly affluent and has over 4 million people. I believe the venues in some other areas are even smaller.
> 
> $3 per ticket out of a 500-seat venue isn't so impressive, and that's assuming it sells out. Many venues now take a cut of the merchandise, I believe. And don't underestimate the cost of touring. Crew have to be paid. You've got hotels, meals, gas, vehicle rental, gear costs.
> 
> Bands rarely got paid well for albums, even back in the glory days of the '70s and '80s--unless you sold several million copies. Nowadays, they make a pittance at most. Even the labels are having a hard time making a profit now.
> 
> Bottom line--nobody plays metal for the money anymore, even though a few do end up making a living from it.


 Yeah Pops probably holds like 1000 or under maybe. bands make nothing playing there.


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## Mindcrime1204

And with the way the global economy is... all of our favorite metal bands are making pennys


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## silentrage

This thread is becoming way too fcking depressing. 
:lock:


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## jacksonplayer

silentrage said:


> This thread is becoming way too fcking depressing.
> :lock:



Yeah, but being in a band playing originals has always been about doing it for the love of the music. Even in the old days, you had a better chance of striking it rich at the blackjack table in Vegas than you did of becoming a wealthy rock star.

The main thing that's changed is that it's even harder to scrape by at the lower end of the business. There are simply fewer gigs to be had and fewer paying customers. Everybody's too busy playing Rock Band at home to actually go support rock bands.


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## sworth9411

A fun fact, and put things in perspective; Aerosmith have made more money with the Guitar Hero Royalties, than all of their touring, Royalties, Albums, Merchandise, Etc. Combined throughout their entire career&#8230;..They are fucking huge and make good cash but really just thought that was an interesting fact&#8230;.

Most touring Metal bands I know make less than $30,000 a year but you tour and keep going because of the music not the money.

You do however make great money doing touring festivals (Ozzfest, Warped, SOTU, etc&#8230;.last band I knew who did Ozzfest got paid $100,000 for the whole summer&#8230;..but take into account tour bus, Gas, Insurance, food, etc&#8230;.for 5 dudes = not very much money)


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## elrrek

sworth9411 said:


> You do however make great money doing touring festivals (Ozzfest, Warped, SOTU, etc.last band I knew who did Ozzfest got paid $100,000 for the whole summer..but take into account tour bus, Gas, Insurance, food, etc.for 5 dudes = not very much money)[/COLOR][/FONT][/SIZE]



I'd heard the exact opposite of this. Bands on the smaller stages of Ozzfest would pay to get on the tour and they did it in the hope that playing to those audiences would pay off when they went out and bought their records. The bigger stages and the bigger name acts of course got invited on but second stage and below I think it was?is a different matter.


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## Rick

^I heard the same thing. Bands were having to pay $10,000-20,000 to be on Ozzfest in the first place. 

If I remember correctly, bands usually have to wait a year to receive from CD sales. So that's even worse. 

Think about Fellsilent, their US tour gets pulled from under them and they have nothing left. They spent a lot of money in preparation for this tour and now they have nothing to show for it. Their album does come out next month but these guys need some help bad.


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## Mindcrime1204

No wonder my fav metal bands are so good, all they can afford to do is stay their happy-asses at home and practice...


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## Rick

Yep.

A buddy of mine (will not mention name) had to get a job at Hot Topic after one of his tours ended because of lack of money.


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## Mindcrime1204

Rick said:


> Yep.
> 
> A buddy of mine (will not mention name) had to get a job at Hot Topic after one of his tours ended because of lack of money.


 

Hot Topic?!?!  

It's just kinda sad to think that SOME of my favorite metal heroes and biggest influences are barely making it by. They could have easily given up long ago and have done something else with their lives, but the love for the music obviously is much more stronger. I guess once you write music that touches enough peoples lives, you kinda just have to keep on going/feeding em...


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## Elysian

darkest hour had to pay for their spot on ozzfest a few years ago, it was something like 80k(might have been like 60, it was a fuckton either way) if i'm not mistaken, pretty horrible, they didn't get shit for it.


sworth9411 said:


> A fun fact, and put things in perspective; Aerosmith have made more money with the Guitar Hero Royalties, than all of their touring, Royalties, Albums, Merchandise, Etc. Combined throughout their entire career&#8230;..They are fucking huge and make good cash but really just thought that was an interesting fact&#8230;.
> 
> Most touring Metal bands I know make less than $30,000 a year but you tour and keep going because of the music not the money.
> 
> You do however make great money doing touring festivals (Ozzfest, Warped, SOTU, etc&#8230;.last band I knew who did Ozzfest got paid $100,000 for the whole summer&#8230;..but take into account tour bus, Gas, Insurance, food, etc&#8230;.for 5 dudes = not very much money)


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## liquidcow

elrrek said:


> I'd heard the exact opposite of this. Bands on the smaller stages of Ozzfest would pay to get on the tour and they did it in the hope that playing to those audiences would pay off when they went out and bought their records. The bigger stages and the bigger name acts of course got invited on but second stage and below I think it was?is a different matter.



Yep. My brother was in a band (from which he has now quit) who had a fairly useless manager, I remember him saying they were pissed off with him because he'd turned down a festival appearance they were offered because they were only going to get paid £200 or so for it (don't know if that was between them or in total) - when they heard about it they at first thought that they would have to _pay_ that much to play there and they would have been fine to do that because it's fairly standard.


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## Elysian

i've been in a band that thought the pay to play thing would pay off, thats how my last band opened for Testament in Tacoma in 2005, but it didn't ever do them any good. and honestly, i don't believe in pay to play, and told them as such, so they would always pay, and i'd never pitch in a penny. i actually wound up leaving after the testament show, because we were given a 45 minute set instead of 20 because 1 opener cancelled, but we only wound up playing 15 minutes because the idiots in my band didn't think we were ready to play more(even though we could have easily filled that 45 minutes), so they didn't even get their fucking money's worth


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## InTheRavensName

Jari from Wintersun is a postmaster in his non-tour time I believe...


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## DaveCarter

Yup, it sucks but thats the way it is. I used to think Id be better off since Im in a more commercial female-fronted band, but even the founding member of Nightwish (and main composer, which means the majority of royalty cheques come his way) has 2 side projects going and yet still lives with his parents.

The guy from the Goo-goo Dolls was saying in an interview his last album sold 800,000 copies and none of the band members made any money at all from it, but I think that may be a case of them having signed a bad contract!! Knowing your music business is definitely an advantage.


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## silentrage

Looks like I have the right idea about metal? I always dreamed that I'd make enough money from my real job so that one day I can go and be in a metal band full time. 
Never even thought of the possibility of supporting myself on being a musician alone.


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## sworth9411

Rick said:


> ^I heard the same thing. Bands were having to pay $10,000-20,000 to be on Ozzfest in the first place.
> 
> If I remember correctly, bands usually have to wait a year to receive from CD sales. So that's even worse.
> 
> Think about Fellsilent, their US tour gets pulled from under them and they have nothing left. They spent a lot of money in preparation for this tour and now they have nothing to show for it. Their album does come out next month but these guys need some help bad.


 

Well, again, I am repeating information from Two bands I know who played Ozzfest one made 98k for the tour the other 103k, and both of them didnt pay to get on the tour at all (both second stage, both beginning of the day bands). I guess a lot of different bands have signed different deals..sucks to hear about Darkest Hour.had no idea.


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## Ze Kink

How about popular indie bands then? Or bands that start their own record companies? As I've understood, record companies are those who make (sometimes shitloads of) money from music, not the artists.

I think when Trent Reznor quit his record company and released Ghosts I-IV by himself for $5 (there were more expensive options too, like a limited vinyl version), he made something like millions of dollars during the first week of selling it. Of course, he's well known already, but wtf? Are the record companies honestly taking that much money from the artist? That, and they're asking 4 or 5 times more per cd... crazy.


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## 7 Strings of Hate

gatesofcarnage said:


> Yeah Pops probably holds like 1000 or under maybe. bands make nothing playing there.



thats inside too though, the last few years they have been doing a whole lot more shows outside where you can pack a shitload more people.


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## DaveCarter

sworth9411 said:


> Well, again, I am repeating information from Two bands I know who played Ozzfest one made 98k for the tour the other 103k, and both of them didnt pay to get on the tour at all (both second stage, both beginning of the day bands). I guess a lot of different bands have signed different deals..sucks to hear about Darkest Hour.had no idea.




Could well be a matter of knowing your legal stuff. Here in the UK its the Performing Rights Society that will pay out royalties to the songwriter for public performances. Its usually about 3% of hat the venue takes on the door, which could easily be nothing, but that rule applies as much to festivals as it does to pub gigs. Something like the Download festival is 80,000 people, £150 a ticket = £12,000,000. Even if 3% of that was split between all the bands that played on your stage or on the same day as you, thats still a few grand. Im not sure how its divided up, so it'd be good if someone with industry experience could correct me on this!! I know that those royalties come from the license fees paid to the PRS, so its not like the headliner's booking fees would have to come out of that money first. The bottom line is still dont get in to metal to make money!!!


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel

I know Demmel from MH still works out of the neigboring Carpenters Union Local just one district over from my old one in the East Bay when he's off tour. Record companies make far more money than the artist ever hopes to see. Trent Reznor set a new standard for a business model to follow.


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## badger71

chavhunter said:


> Could well be a matter of knowing your legal stuff.


 
Or, in the case of a few artists, it could be what they brought to the table when signing on to a label, tour, mfg., etc....

I'll use a couple non-metal examples to illustrate. MC Hammer and Kid Rock. Both started playing shows in their area and built up a strong local following. Both did their own distribution, merchandising, promotion, and gig/tour scheduling, etc....In essence, by doing it all, they had started to gather: huge record sales without major label involvement, huge profits from merchandising, and huge turnouts at their shows. When all was said and done, they had a nice figure with alot of zeros behind it which gave them the ability and know-how to turn down bad deals/contracts dangled in front of them. Why accept 1 point ($.01) on the dollar per record sold when they were already banking more than that themselves? 

The point is: the aforementioned acts at Ozzfest that made money, may have brought some similar circumstances that tour promoters viewed as more ticket sales. It really comes down to how you market yourself. I'll admit, though, that the metal genre is much harder to "sell" than pop hip hop and pop metal.


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## Triple-J

The fact that many metal bands don't make much cash is why the phrase "sell-out" annoys the fuck out of me as it's thrown about by so many metalheads without them understanding the reality behind it all. 
For example a guy I once worked with was talking about KSE and said "I used to like them but I hate them now they've sold out cause they're only in it for the money now" so I asked him what exactly made them "sell outs" and he couldn't give me one single genuine answer so I told him that if they were really in it for the money they'd be playing in a boy band or some mainstream pop punk band and doing adverts for Pepsi not playing in a metal band with some hairy guy playing bass!

Anyone with any sense knows that it's only really bands like Maiden AC/DC Motley and Ozzy etc that make any cash but I do think that smaller bands get fucked over by the industry, for example I met Static-X when they were touring for their first album and was asking about Ozzfest and they told me they had to pay for a slot on the tour and the only thing they made cash off the tour on was merchandise and even then the venue takes a cut off of that! 

As for Trent Reznor I reckon he makes a lot of cash because he records and produces the material himself which cuts the cost of a studio and a producer, I imagine someone like Adam D. must make some cash too as he produces for other bands and is also the main songwriter for KSE. Joel from KSE is a graphic artist on the side and has done many covers/T-shirts for other bands and I was reading that one of the guys from Napalm Death does agency work when he isnt touring so I guess you got to do whatever it takes to get by really?


----------



## liquidcow

Triple-J said:


> The fact that many metal bands don't make much cash is why the phrase "sell-out" annoys the fuck out of me as it's thrown about by so many metalheads without them understanding the reality behind it all.
> For example a guy I once worked with was talking about KSE and said "I used to like them but I hate them now they've sold out cause they're only in it for the money now" so I asked him what exactly made them "sell outs" and he couldn't give me one single genuine answer so I told him that if they were really in it for the money they'd be playing in a boy band or some mainstream pop punk band and doing adverts for Pepsi not playing in a metal band with some hairy guy playing bass!



Exactly, the term 'sell-out' is meaningless, people tend to just use it when they mean that a band isn't doing what they want them to anymore, or that the band has become too popular for their liking. It's so easy for metalheads to sit at home on their computers saying things like 'it should be about the music and not the money man!' when they have no idea what they are talking about. I've even seen people say that they think it's good for artists to have no money as being miserable 'helps the creative process' which just makes me want to throttle them for being so arrogant as to tell everyone how their artistic process should work.

Yeh with Trent Reznor, he somehow has a ton of money, although I think he probably got paid a lot to do things like the Natural Born Killers soundtrack, and he has produced other people's albums and presumably got paid for it. I think now that NIN are a really big band and they're going down the self-release route he will make an absolute killing. He has said though that that route isn't necessarily the future for musicians as only a few are able to do it. Obviously the bulk of NIN's publicity and marketting work is behind them now (or that's another thing that Trent is probably able to handle himself) so that's a huge thing that they don't have to worry about as much as a less well known band.


----------



## auxioluck

Paul Ryan from Origin works at GC in San Fransisco....so...apparently not enough to have only playing sustain you.


----------



## Luan

If a record label pays 4 or 5 dollars to the artist for every cd sold, the artist gets a LOT of money in case the cd sells well. But that is very rare, metallica, steve vai, and others had that good deal.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic

auxioluck said:


> Paul Ryan from Origin works at GC in San Fransisco....so...apparently not enough to have only playing sustain you.



Yup, i actually laughed hella hard when i heard that at first. Because you would think he would be a session musician.


----------



## Harry

I remember a Christian Olde Wolbers interview about, 2 or 3 years ago where he said music wasn't making enough money for him to really live comfortably, so he had to go into investment properties to make a bit more.
I figured he would have been more well healed than that, considering how well known Fear Factory are but I guess that's how it is.


----------



## caughtinamosh

This is a great idea for a thread. It's always something I've asked myself...

What about the Meshuggah guys? I can't seem them earning all their living from their music...


----------



## Nick

they could only give up their jobs after they released nothing i believe.



Matt Gillis said:


> Actually, I go to school for this stuff! I'll graduate with a music degree, but I also get a certificate in music business because I have to take numerous business courses regarding music.
> 
> That being said, I have to say that I've seen actual figures that are somewhat optimistic. I live and Canada, which is a bit different from the U.S., but at the same rate I can confirm for both countries that musicians either do great, they just "survive", or they arn't musicians at all anymore.
> 
> A "mid-level" band like Symphony X would be doing alright, in fact, I bet they are living more than a comfortable lifestyle. I can't confirm this since I've never actually seen any financial records for the band, but in similar cases where I live (for MUCH smaller bands) the members can make upwards of $100,000 a year if they market themselves properly.
> 
> 
> 
> You also have to remember that "cash in the pocket" is only one form of paying for your lifestyle. As a musician you are basically a small business, and you do accounting and such to PROVE that you actually do make money. As long as you pay your taxes and can give a record of your income, you can still get morgages, loans, etc. from the bank no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Life as a musician isn't really hard, it's just that you have to market yourself and crawl into every niche market you can. Do session work, give lessons, provide clinics if you can, heck, even write jingle ads if you need to, but my point is that there are plenty of options to make money.
> 
> 
> I'll stick with the Symphony X example to keep it simple, but Michael Romeo would make lots of money not only from shows, but all the various promotion he does, gear companies he endorses, appearences at places like NAMM etc. Anyway, you see the point. Just don't get into music for the money because you can fail miserably, but for those with the drive and passion to survive in the industry can make a comfortable living easily.



this is all well and good but i think the origional question was more like 'how much to symphony x make just by being symphony x'

Personally i think that me and my bad have written a few good tracks and that once they are propperly recorded that they are really worth trying to get out to people to hear.

however, do i feel qualified in any way to do clinics or teach other people to play guitar? Not in the slightest!

so this really isnt an option for most people.


----------



## elrrek

Ze Kink said:


> How about popular indie bands then? Or bands that start their own record companies? As I've understood, record companies are those who make (sometimes shitloads of) money from music, not the artists.
> 
> I think when Trent Reznor quit his record company and released Ghosts I-IV by himself for $5 (there were more expensive options too, like a limited vinyl version), he made something like millions of dollars during the first week of selling it. Of course, he's well known already, but wtf? Are the record companies honestly taking that much money from the artist? That, and they're asking 4 or 5 times more per cd... crazy.



The problem with the "Trent Reznor business model" is that only bands or artist the size of Trent Reznor or Radiohead (who beat him to the post very slightly) can pull off that sort of thing because they have an established fan base that they can communicate to without the need of record label machinery. A smaller band with a smaller fan base has not chance of making that sort of money because they do not have enough exposure, enough people who know about them, to go to the website and download their music.


----------



## Variant

elrrek said:


> The problem with the "Trent Reznor business model" is that only bands or artist the size of Trent Reznor or Radiohead (who beat him to the post very slightly) can pull off that sort of thing because they have an established fan base that they can communicate to without the need of record label machinery. A smaller band with a smaller fan base has not chance of making that sort of money because they do not have enough exposure, enough people who know about them, to go to the website and download their music.



I dunno if that's *entirely* true. I was watching a show on hip hop moguls, and despite my distaste for the music, I gotta say rock musicians could *really* learn a thing or twenty from these guys.  

A lot of them start off in way more humble & obscured circumstances, and can make their way into very good, if not excellent, money through the whole climb... maintaining creative control, distribution, as well as profit rights to their respective tunes. Not only that, but they know *where* to make the largest margins on sales. 

Sad thing is, they've been pulling this shit for well over a decade now, taking the power away from the labels (even creating their own) and dimwitted rock musicians just haven't gotten their shit together and followed the trail blazed.  Are we really that fucking dumb that a slum-born, highschool dropout can cash in on his music and we cannot.


----------



## Nick

nice generalisation on hip hop artists 

and yes rock bands are that dumb. Try organising a show involving bands that dont have paid for managers.


----------



## elrrek

But the difference there is that the hip-hop and r'n'b market is significantly larger and easier to break into and an entirely different world from a "rock" and definitely "metal" band. 

Hip-hop and r'n'b artists have watched the artists before them been fleeced (the early blues guys for example) and obviously decided they weren't going to let it happen to them again, perhaps it's a cultural thing. Hip-hop artists in particular have been advocates of the "artists up label down" mentality and well done to them for doing it. So, to answer your question, are "we" dumb", yes, I think some of us are to an extent, but we should remember that in this case the market circumstances are very different.


----------



## Variant

elrrek said:


> But the difference there is that the hip-hop and r'n'b market is significantly larger...



Ahhhhemmm... someone's not been watching the slow decline of rap music as closely as some of the rest of us: 

_*Before we get into the top selling artists etc, an interesting side note: while MTV and their assorted channels, radio, and the labels seem to focus a lot of their energy on rap, R&B and country, it appears that alternative, rock and metal are far more popular with record buyers. Rap took a nose dive of almost 20% in 2008 with sales of 33,410 million units, compare that to the 50,476 million metal albums sold. R&B which dominates Top 40 radio only managed sales of 77,014 million (a drop of almost 20% from 2007). Country music was the worst hit in sales decline, falling 24% in 2008 to end up BEHIND metal in sales at 47,657 million. While all genres saw a drop in sales in 2008, it was the rock related ones that declined the least. Alternative CD sales fell -8.7% with 80,919 million units sold. Rock declined -6.5% with 139,666 units sold (interesting almost twice as much as R&B. MTV pay attention to why your ratings are dropping) and metal saw the smallest decline in sales with only a -4.7% drop in 2008. *_


----------



## elrrek

Yes, I see your point but consider the cross over between r'n'b and hip-hop you could almost consider those genres as the same market. For example, while your average metal fan will have a 90&#37; population of "metal" records and the rest being made up of other genres. People that buy r'n'b and hip-hop have a collection which consists largely of records from both those genres making a total sales unit there of 100,424 million, nearly double the metal market.

Another important consideration is the media and product cross over from the hip-hop and r'n'b artists. How many metal bands do you know that have a Playstation or XBox game? How many do you know are making films? How many do you know that have a fashion clothing line? Now compare that to the r'n'b and hip-hop artists where you can buy branded nose clippers from P-Diddy? So while records sales may be dropping the publics attachement to the music is no waning and MTVs ratings are falling less because people are not buying what MTV are playing but because people can see the artists they want every where else!

Metal fans traditionally have always been some of the most prolific in actually buying a record so the smaller drop in metal sales is under standable. In other genres perhaps owning the music is not as important as being attached to the life style and image of the artists. If you can down load the latest single from the internet and instead buy 50 Cents branded jacket or jeans maybe that's where the fan money is going.


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## stuh84

This is why I'm glad I've never had the "oh I'll make it and all my problems will be solved" view on life, ALWAYS had a back up, or come to think of it, main plan. I'm getting pretty heavy into networking, and will probably be able to make a killing on contracting in a couple of years if need be, so if the band I'm in gets off the ground, it'll be a case of go on tour, come back, get another contract for a few months, book another tour later, and happilly live on the money I've made from the contract for a few months.

Seriously, I think a lot of people need to get their heads straight, and concentrate on funding music, not music funding them. Why do I have better gear than a lot of people in signed bands? Because I have a good paying job, it's time people wised up to the truth and not live in dellusion about everything.


----------



## Nick

funnily enough my band had a meeting with a tour manager last night.

the guy wasnt used to metal and was more used to managing indi bands.

the subject of financial rights to material came up and i was surprised that my band pretty much agreed with 50&#37; would be mine and the other 50 split which i then declined while laughing and said if we ever make money it gets split 5 ways, end of discussion.

the guy was pretty astounded at that but i then explained to him that if we ever made money off of music i might be able to buy a mars bar with my 50% but maybe not so it was neither here nor there to me lol.

i agree with stu as well. you pretty much need to not expect any return from this if you want to enjoy it.

funnily enough my band had a meeting with a tour manager last night.

the guy wasnt used to metal and was more used to managing indi bands.

the subject of financial rights to material came up and i was surprised that my band pretty much agreed with 50% would be mine and the other 50 split which i then declined while laughing and said if we ever make money it gets split 5 ways, end of discussion.

the guy was pretty astounded at that but i then explained to him that if we ever made money off of music i might be able to buy a mars bar with my 50% but maybe not so it was neither here nor there to me lol.

i agree with stu as well. you pretty much need to not expect any return from this if you want to enjoy it.


----------



## El Caco

I was talking to a member about his tour of the US, I asked him if he will be getting any money this time, his response was "probably not but I don't care, I get a free trip to the US".


----------



## jacksonplayer

stuh84 said:


> This is why I'm glad I've never had the "oh I'll make it and all my problems will be solved" view on life, ALWAYS had a back up, or come to think of it, main plan.





I'd go even further. One year in Los Angeles in the early '90s entirely cured me of any desire to have anything to do with the music industry. I worked in both music and tv/movie post-production studios and enjoyed the latter much more. The music business appeared to me to be nothing but a bunch of two-bit con artists. The musicians I met there who were really pushing hard to 'make it' seemed to be backstabbers who would play any type of shit and suck any amount of dick to get a record deal. I met some great musicians, actual geniuses, who didn't have a hope in hell of competing with that because they had integrity. And the industry types? Don't get me started. Sort of a Clown College version of the Sopranos. The whole thing was repulsive and almost made me stop playing guitar. I didn't start getting back into it until opted for another career.

The TV/movie industry had its own idiocy, but I actually met a lot of creative and interesting people in that biz, unlike the music industry. If I'd had a better sense of what I was doing, I'd probably still be in that business today.


----------



## liamh

This kinda makes me think more seriously about napster now.


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## liquidcow

liamh said:


> This kinda makes me think more seriously about napster now.



In what way?


----------



## RenegadeDave

The Daily Adventures Of Mixerman | Welcome

Read his diaries of recording an LA bidding war band. It goes into how the contracts are written with the artist at the absolute bottom of the food chain. 

Bands that can record and produce their own material are infinitely better off, but even still, I don't think there's a hell of a lot of money to be made.


----------



## Ze Kink

Today morning I had a thought... Musicians and composers have been making a living with music for about 1000 years already. I don't think I've heard about a composer who's had a "real" day job while doing music professionally at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong), though obviously many musicians and composers had students. I think it's weird that now that we have cd's etc., and many, many people can access the musician's art in other ways than just going to their concerts (which previously was possible only for local people really, as there weren't any airplanes, cars or whatever), yet musicians cannot live by doing just music anymore. Instead, we have a huge lot of new multinational businesses that previously didn't exist in any form. WTF?


----------



## silentrage

mm, I don't know how accurate an account Amadeus was on the life of Mozart, but if it is remotely accurate then it's not entirely far fetched compared to today.
Mozart was a genius, obviously, but he offended certain talentless hacks who happened to hold power and influence in the royal court, and they made sure he couldn't get any students which is apparently where the money is at, he died pennyless, buried in a mass grave without even a tombstone erected in his name.

I was so pissed off by the end of it I beat the shit out of my puppy again.


----------



## jacksonplayer

Ze Kink said:


> Today morning I had a thought... Musicians and composers have been making a living with music for about 1000 years already. I don't think I've heard about a composer who's had a "real" day job while doing music professionally at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong), though obviously many musicians and composers had students. I think it's weird that now that we have cd's etc., and many, many people can access the musician's art in other ways than just going to their concerts (which previously was possible only for local people really, as there weren't any airplanes, cars or whatever), yet musicians cannot live by doing just music anymore. Instead, we have a huge lot of new multinational businesses that previously didn't exist in any form. WTF?



The number of people (in Europe) making a living solely off of music 200 years ago was very small. A handful of men working in the courts of the various monarchs, and some itinerant musicians who probably lived a sort of gypsy hand-to-mouth lifestyle. Most music outside the royal courts was performed as a hobby.

I don't imagine it was much different in non-European cultures. I don't know how many people worked exclusively as musicians in the Indian religious tradition back then, for example, but I can't imagine it was too many. 

There simply wasn't enough wealth in societies back then to support many pro musicians.

The issue now is different. Musicians made money in the 20th Century because of scarcity and a different cultural role for music. It cost a lot of money to record and distribute music, so recordings were more of a valuable commodity. 

Also, going to nightclubs and dance halls featuring live music was also a major social activity up until the 1960s--guys made a living as musicians in dance bands without ever leaving their hometowns. The rise of the DJ in the '70s and the increasing availability and affordability of recorded music in the 20 years before that made live music increasingly scarce, until it became an "event" rather than a regular occurrence for the general public.


----------



## BlindingLight7

yeah man....if you care about money more then music then thats failure at its finest




but yeah man....musicianship is about being out there. playing show, making freinds, having fun. most bands in the beginner level still live with there parents, have a crappy job that pays good cuz nobody wants it.. and all the earnings go to survival and band related purchases like studio time, cd duplication, gear, artwork etc etc


in other words. if you want to make music your main income of cash...see ya in 20 years


----------



## Variant

elrrek said:


> Yes, I see your point but consider the cross over between r'n'b and hip-hop you could almost consider those genres as the same market. For example, while your average metal fan will have a 90% population of "metal" records and the rest being made up of other genres. People that buy r'n'b and hip-hop have a collection which consists largely of records from both those genres making a total sales unit there of 100,424 million, nearly double the metal market.



I disagree, while hip hop & R&B have a good deal of overlap so far as consumer tastes, so does metal and rock... and they've still chosen to keep them separate. Also, it should be mentioned that these numbers are just the tail end of a long standing trend in that market, where hip hop sales have fallen tremendously from it's peak in the early 2000's. This is the other side of the coin from rockers should learn from rapers... this is: _*"Rappers, look at glam rock... now look and bling rap... history... repeats..." *_ 



> Another important consideration is the media and product cross over from the hip-hop and r'n'b artists. How many metal bands do you know that have a Playstation or XBox game?



Metallica have a Rock Band / Guitar Hero / whatever thingy coming out. 



> How many do you know are making films?



Rob Zombie... Dee Snyder... 



> How many do you know that have a fashion clothing line?



Slipknot (Tattered 'n' Torn)
Celldweller (Fixt)
Niklas Sundin (Cabin Fever Media) does designs/art for gads of bands, etc., as does Mircea from Mnemic, 
there's others... 

But I think this digresses a bit. I believe the conversation should stay _*within*_ the realm of what _*directly*_ relates to the music. Even production for others (another hop hop cash cow, that a many recording savvy metal/rock artist has jumped on board with finally) isn't really what's being talked about here. Its about pure album/single/download (nowadays) sales of the artist/band in question... and there's still plenty of money to be had there done correctly. Maybe rock, metal, alt., indie, etc. artist are just behind the curve so far as digital distribution goes, but things like single song downloads, album downloads, *r1ngtones*, etc. have made big dollars for the "urban" music community. Loaning music out to movies and TV as well is another big outlet that rockers are missing out with. Klay Scott (Celldweller) is a great example of a relatively unknown rock/industrial/electronic artist who's got a tome of movie and TV usages. EVERYONE on this forum has heard his music weather they think they have or not. 













 Bitch, cunt, fuck, shit, whore, pussy, ........ I love that sevenstring.org censors *r1ngtone*.


----------



## budda

I think that most bands just hope to break even or not suffer much of a loss, after a year.

Ask the bands at shows "are you even making money?" - they are genuinely saying "thank you" when you buy their merch or come see a show.

I was apologizing profusely to members of born of osiris tuesday night, as i normally hit up shows with $40 in spending money minimum. I haven't been on tour, I haven't been in a real-steady gigging band, but I like to support the guys who can get out to a venue and take the stage.

My life's goal is to go on tour at some point.


----------



## liamh

liquidcow said:


> In what way?


 Well, i always thought that no-one who was true to their music gave a fuck about illegal downloading, but now that i know how much they earn, it kinda puts me off.


----------



## Koshchei

This thread is why I'm not a full-time musician  My friend, who played in a fairly successful band that went on several fairly successful tours before calling it quits put it perfectly when he called himself a "beggar in shiny clothes". That they made almost no money at all was bad, but with the complete pile-on by crooked promoters, club owners, etc, they ended up deep in debt and were unable to cover their basic living expenses.

The singer, who was a really nice guy, but dumb as a post, broke up the band finally when he was out biking on a frosty October night - he skidded on some leaves and put his head through an iron fence. The drummer held him as he died. 

So yeah, not an easy profession to make a living at. Too much drama, too much fighting over tiny sums of money, and no security.


----------



## DaveCarter

Mindcrime1204 said:


> They should make an MTV/VH1 episode of Cribs: The METAL edition. lolol
> 
> Though it'd prolly turn out more like a fucking poverty/relief fund...



Funny you should mention that...



These guys were signed, played the Download festival 3 times, had an album produced by Adam Dutkiewicz, toured with Killswitch Engage...and split up last year. They used to post ads requesting floor space on tours, and slept in their van even at Download despite being almost top of the bill on the small stage


----------



## Rick

That's a shame.


----------



## Inazone

As someone who got into recording and gigging fairly late in the game (mid 20s) after already going to college and starting a career, I've already ruled out any serious attempts at living off my music. I'm certainly not in a band with any real fanbase, but we've played some small festivals and landed cool support gigs that gave some insight into what bands are really making through touring. The first time I saw Nile play a headlining gig in Minneapolis, they were driving a beat old Dodge Caravan with a U-Haul trailer behind it . . . in the middle of winter . . . playing a 100-capacity death-trap of a venue. We opened for them a few years later and at least they had a bus. We also played with The Absence, and they couldn't afford replacement guitar strings by halfway through their tour - every dollar they made from merch had to get paid back to Metal Blade for fronting them touring funds. They were all working pizza delivery jobs, hardware store jobs, or whatever they could easily get and then quit next time they went on tour. After the show, they slept in another band's practice space.

Not sure about now, but four years ago, we landed a record deal on a now-defunct European metal label with some fairly well-known artists and many unknowns on the roster. Our deal was for one-half euro per unit sold, and no tour support. The label paid for mastering, manufacturing, distro and promotion, but we had to pay for all recording and mixing ourselves. The label went under, so we never collected a dime, and now our CDs (liquidated when the label folded) are selling for a couple bucks while we were trying to get $8 each just to make our money back. Since we can't get more CDs after the label went under, we can't get more of our own CDs to sell, so touring is impossible unless we treat it as a vacation and not a source of income.

Having had the privilege of sleeping in a warm bed and knowing where my next meal is coming from for my entire life, I don't think I could trade it. Music is great, but unless you have no other obligations (mortgage, kids, car payment, etc.) or have a family that can support you financially, it's a pretty brutal existence . . . and not in the good way.


----------



## DaveCarter

What a depressing thread!! It all needs to be said though, Id rather find out this way than when its too late...

Im still holding out a bit of hope for my band. I dont intend to make a living from it, but I still want to avoid being broke because of it! I graduate this year, and the music business teaching ive learnt here is invaluable. Ive set up my own label which we're releasing off, our EP is on iTunes, we've had Chris Broderick offer to play on our album this year, we've had international airplay, been offered headline shows with support....and we dont even have a vocalist yet!! Auditions are tomorrow, should be gigging by the summer. Surely this sounds more promising??


----------



## Drache713

chavhunter said:


> What a depressing thread!! It all needs to be said though, Id rather find out this way than when its too late...
> 
> Im still holding out a bit of hope for my band. I dont intend to make a living from it, but I still want to avoid being broke because of it! I graduate this year, and the music business teaching ive learnt here is invaluable. Ive set up my own label which we're releasing off, our EP is on iTunes, we've had Chris Broderick offer to play on our album this year, we've had international airplay, been offered headline shows with support....and we dont even have a vocalist yet!! Auditions are tomorrow, should be gigging by the summer. Surely this sounds more promising??


All that WITHOUT a vocalist!? Jesus, my band doesn't have a vocalist and we are lucky to even get shows - where can I sign up for your type of situation!


----------



## DaveCarter

Lol find a film composer who now writes progressive/symphonic metal!! Gets you free stuff from Ernie Ball too  Hopefully we'll find our vocalist at auditions tomorrow, the current front-runner is a classically trained soprano who's already fronted a touring metal band and also happens to be a burlesque/lingerie model  You cant be called a sell-out if you start as you mean to go on


----------



## stuh84

If she doesn't work out send her my way. I don't particularly need her to sing though


----------



## budda

at the johnny truant video!

those guys were amazing people to hang out with - olly bought me a shot the first time I saw them, and Reuben (guitarist) bought me a beer.

I'll miss 'em .

thought i'd share..


----------



## DaveCarter

stuh84 said:


> If she doesn't work out send her my way. I don't particularly need her to sing though



Hands off, MINE!!! 



budda said:


> at the johnny truant video!
> 
> those guys were amazing people to hang out with - olly bought me a shot the first time I saw them, and Reuben (guitarist) bought me a beer.
> 
> I'll miss 'em .
> 
> thought i'd share..



Yeah I met them a few times, really nice guys. Shame it had to come to an end, but it was fun while it lasted!! I cant find it but there's another video of Olly walking in to a random office full of people in these crazy shorts just going round telling the camera how all these people work for him. He's just walking past random people like "yeah and this guy is doing some promo for us...this guy here is just working on the new album..." and he just gets weird looks from everyone since no-one in there knows who he is. Then he walks out shouting KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK EVERYONE!! Pricless


----------



## groph

I got two bucks for a show once.


----------



## budda

chavhunter said:


> Yeah I met them a few times, really nice guys. Shame it had to come to an end, but it was fun while it lasted!! I cant find it but there's another video of Olly walking in to a random office full of people in these crazy shorts just going round telling the camera how all these people work for him. He's just walking past random people like "yeah and this guy is doing some promo for us...this guy here is just working on the new album..." and he just gets weird looks from everyone since no-one in there knows who he is. Then he walks out shouting KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK EVERYONE!! Pricless



 olly is crazier then i thought then. I was talking to Liam (cancer bats voxist) about it, as i was at their show the last night johnny truant played, and he said that after 10 years and the way things were going, it was just time to end it.

I told him to pass on the message that they left me heartbroken lol.

I got paid $10 for one show ($50 between 5 people) and $25? + gift vouchers for the big one this summer (biggest/best show i've played). granted thats not numbers for a metal band..


----------



## Shadow_6667

haha my band normally books a pub really far away, so that all the money goes on petrol... i once saw 5 pounds spent on me in McD LMAO


----------



## Harry

groph said:


> I got two bucks for a show once.



How much did it cost to get there though?


----------



## datalore

For most of my friends who are in touring/recording bands, it's enough to be able to survive and not accrue more debt while in the band. I don't think anyone comes into this game expecting to make a lot of money as a mid-level band. Devin Townsend is currently selling off studio and guitar gear to pay his bills.


----------



## TonalArchitect

Ze Kink said:


> Today morning I had a thought... Musicians and composers have been making a living with music for about 1000 years already. I don't think I've heard about a composer who's had a "real" day job while doing music professionally at the same time (correct me if I'm wrong), though obviously many musicians and composers had students. I think it's weird that now that we have cd's etc., and many, many people can access the musician's art in other ways than just going to their concerts (which previously was possible only for local people really, as there weren't any airplanes, cars or whatever), yet musicians cannot live by doing just music anymore. Instead, we have a huge lot of new multinational businesses that previously didn't exist in any form. WTF?



Well, sort of. Things were very different back then for musicians in other ways also. 

Thing is, during Mozart's day, there wasn't the concept of a 'free artist'; Composers were thought of as skilled craftsmen. And it was passed down from generation to generation. Bach came from a family of musicians. It was a craft, a skill, like blacksmithing or cabinetmaking. 

There weren't labels, buyt the equivalent was just as bad. Composers sought patrons: nobles who would pay them for their services. 

In Bach's day, composeres were expected to toss off music, without notice, for any occasion. Composers were also expect to teach students, direct choirs, perform, etc at their patron's whim.

There wasn't a real market for freelance composers for quite a while. Mozart tried to do it, and he couldn't. The time wasn't quite right for that. 

Beethoven was kind of the first 'free artist,' in the modern sense. He was not under the patronage of a lord, and he wrote music for his own self-expression. 

He was loved by the Viennese and some gave him gifts of money so long as he'd stay in Vienna. Not a commission for a work, but just so that he'd stay there and compose. 

The concept of the free and 'starving' artist really came full force in the Romantic Era (about 1826-1900).

It became the art of the artist for his and its sake. 

Look at Wagner; he composed _Das Rheingold_, a two-and-a-half-hour opera and he had to wait for fifteen years before it was performed. Eventually Wagner did get a partron, but he was more of an exception than a rule at this point. 

Liszt made a lot of money-- and did awesome, cheritable things with it-- but he did so as a touring virtuoso. 

Chopin gave piano lessons to wealthy young ladies.

And some of them had more or less the equivalent of day jobs: Berlioz had to review the compositions of others, and he loathed it.

So musicians have always been screwed, more or less. 

I do wish it were better for artists-- the dedicated ones who are in it for the art, not the money. 

As for me, I compose because I feel the urge to create something. Eventually I hope to get it recorded, and I'll hire a vocalist for the studio, but I have no intention of ever touring or making it my life. 

I hope to take Ives's route: get a job and compose away from that.


----------



## Bobo

datalore said:


> Devin Townsend is currently selling off studio and guitar gear to pay his bills.



Damn and he's been around quite awhile. But I guess if you just make enough to get by year by year, you never save anything.

My brief experience with some in the record industry was a big turn off. Many stories of how the bands get fucked, and you see so many despicable leeches. I gave up and just play for my own enjoyment.


----------



## GH0STrider

There are a lot of musicians that fall into the "starving artist" category. Then you have the bands/musicians that sell millions of records and are pretty well off. But what most people fail to recognize is that it really isn't just one of the formentioned extremes. There are plenty of musicians that live comfortably in the middle class. Yes, typically these aren't guys in bands on smaller labels and what not. But there are plenty of musicians that make a great living through guitar teaching, composing, and independent work. I think if more of these "just barely cutting it" bands were able to do other things to supliment their income then they would be much better off. Guitar teachers make good money for the most part. So do composers and individuals who are able to sell a good amount of records without the assistance of a label. they aren't paying dividends to someone who isn't necessarily helping. Take a look at musicians like- tom hess, george bellas, or the majority of the shrapnel artists for example. These are individuals who aren't selling millions upon millions of records but they live very comfortably because they have more than one source of income coming their way. I think it comes down to be resourcful enough to make a nice living.


----------



## Triple-J

I understand there are bad aspects to a career in music but making the choice between having to work in a shitty low paying job you hate just to get by or a shitty low paying job that involves you playing music with your friends in a band you like seems pretty easy to me.

Has anyone here actually thought of asking Chest Rockwell for some thoughts on this thread? if anyone can put all of this into some kind of perspective I guess it'd be him 

Also in album liner notes I see many bands giving thanks to companies such as Converse Dickies New Balance etc for getting clothes and shoes sponsorships does anyone know how that works out?


----------



## ShadyDavey

chavhunter said:


> Lol find a film composer who now writes progressive/symphonic metal!! Gets you free stuff from Ernie Ball too  Hopefully we'll find our vocalist at auditions tomorrow, the current front-runner is a classically trained soprano who's already fronted a touring metal band and also happens to be a burlesque/lingerie model  You cant be called a sell-out if you start as you mean to go on



Tour near me, I could do with seeing some cracking lallies ^^

On topic:

Biff Byford from Saxon was friends with my first band's drummer so I got to meet him a few times. Bearing in mind Saxon were one of the bigger bands from the NWOBHM he's still not riding around with his own plane and touring harem.....one of the other local faces is Gizz Butt (Prodigy, More I see, English Dogs) and he had to support himself with teaching guitar for years and years. In fact as far as I know thats how he earns the majority of his income to this day.

By all means, have passion for your music, practice 24/7 and all that good stuff...but don't give up your day job.


----------



## datalore

Bobo said:


> Damn and he's been around quite awhile. But I guess if you just make enough to get by year by year, you never save anything.
> 
> My brief experience with some in the record industry was a big turn off. Many stories of how the bands get fucked, and you see so many despicable leeches. I gave up and just play for my own enjoyment.



I suppose it's harder if you want to do things on your own terms. Devin seems to have done pretty well with his producing, but he also just built himself a studio of his own, so that's a lot of overhead to cover. I really admire his approach, actually. He gets to live out on the coast of BC with his wife and child, and make whatever music he wants to his heart's content. Who could ask for more?


----------



## DaveCarter

ShadyDavey said:


> Tour near me, I could do with seeing some cracking lallies ^^











We auditioned today and got 20 singers down to a top 3, she's in it ^^ 

Back on topic:




GH0STrider said:


> There are a lot of musicians that fall into the "starving artist" category. Then you have the bands/musicians that sell millions of records and are pretty well off. But what most people fail to recognize is that it really isn't just one of the formentioned extremes. There are plenty of musicians that live comfortably in the middle class. Yes, typically these aren't guys in bands on smaller labels and what not. But there are plenty of musicians that make a great living through guitar teaching, composing, and independent work. *I think if more of these "just barely cutting it" bands were able to do other things to supliment their income then they would be much better off. Guitar teachers make good money for the most part. So do composers and individuals who are able to sell a good amount of records without the assistance of a label.* they aren't paying dividends to someone who isn't necessarily helping. Take a look at musicians like- tom hess, george bellas, or the majority of the shrapnel artists for example. These are individuals who aren't selling millions upon millions of records but they live very comfortably because they have more than one source of income coming their way. I think it comes down to be resourcful enough to make a nice living.



^^ Awesome post.

As I said, Im not planning on making loads out of a band, or even a good living. But its what I wanna do more than anything else in the world!! So Ive made sure Im at a level where I can teach (which Ive been doing for the last year n a half) and do session work (15 years classical training) so even if I dont have time for a typical day job I can still earn more than just from CD sales/gigging/merch. Add to that the fact we're releasing internationally from our own label means we keep 100% of Dealer Price on every album sold, and our costs were virtually nothing since we self recorded, self produced, self distributed. Through keeping the costs down and being smart with our marketing hopefully we wont be too broke from doing what we love


----------



## stuh84

chavhunter said:


>



OMNOMNOMNOMNOMNOM


----------



## DaveCarter

EDIT: on second thoughts, nevermind....


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

May I share my tale of woes? 

Melbourne Metal Band Blood Duster is a good example of this. 

Every member of that band is at least in another side project or 2 in addition to already working full time. In fact vocalist Tony works at Shock Records and uses annual leave only for band purposes. Oddly enough I saw him apply for a job at my work for driver position.  But I'm glad he turned it down, UPS is too stressful. 

Another Aussie Metal band Full Scale (before their US fiasco) were the darlings of Melbourne Hard rock scene, though they went through every job you can think of. (Guitarist Jimmy T, was a cop, courier, whatever before the band... and even he asked me for a job at UPS , again I'm glad he didn't get it, he ended up joining Helmet on their 2006-2007 tour). Also don't get me started on what Universal Records did to them. Long story short, they were chewed up and spat out. Shame as they were a fantastic band. 

Oh and how's this for the biggest Metal tragedy:

I'm actually in an inactive metal band called 4arm: prior to joining the band, this band had a bad publicity due to them suing Metropolis Studios for bad mixing... and won (but still a taint in the reputation). Finished first album (with myself as session member - labour of love), got some publicity, except our rhythm guitarist/vocalist broke his forearm (all pun intended on this poetic justice) and unable to tour.... needless to say, not one gig was done to promote this album. Not much was made financially of course.  Even worse is the fact that the band decided to record a followup album (funded mostly from Metallica Tribute shows by the same exact band ). This time I ended up chipping in some cash under the condition that we promote and tour the album = you know, like real normal bands do.  Despite this new album's immenant release... our drummer's still jaded and refuses to gig, instead they'd prefer the security of working in a pizza shop together with the singer and bassist as well as double as a Tribute band to satsify your drum thrills.   While it is more financially secure to work full time, what's the point of forking out all of my hard earned cash of recording a full album of original songs? Those songs managed to get positive feedback only to go onto a damn myspace page. Honestly WTF? wallbash:some more)

I've been trying to get out of this stigma for ages now, got 2 bands on the side (both non metal) but still not enough for me to resign my secure job. But that's my depressing tale.


----------



## Koshchei




----------



## GH0STrider

chavhunter said:


> ^^ Awesome post.
> 
> As I said, Im not planning on making loads out of a band, or even a good living. But its what I wanna do more than anything else in the world!! So Ive made sure Im at a level where I can teach (which Ive been doing for the last year n a half) and do session work (15 years classical training) so even if I dont have time for a typical day job I can still earn more than just from CD sales/gigging/merch. Add to that the fact we're releasing internationally from our own label means we keep 100% of Dealer Price on every album sold, and our costs were virtually nothing since we self recorded, self produced, self distributed. Through keeping the costs down and being smart with our marketing hopefully we wont be too broke from doing what we love



Exactly my point dude. Glad to see you have other sources to earn income with music other than the band.


----------



## Rick

I loved Full Scale.


----------



## ShadyDavey

chavhunter said:


> We auditioned today and got 20 singers down to a top 3, she's in it ^^
> 
> Back on topic:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ^^ Awesome post.
> 
> As I said, Im not planning on making loads out of a band, or even a good living. But its what I wanna do more than anything else in the world!! So Ive made sure Im at a level where I can teach (which Ive been doing for the last year n a half) and do session work (15 years classical training) so even if I dont have time for a typical day job I can still earn more than just from CD sales/gigging/merch. Add to that the fact we're releasing internationally from our own label means we keep 100% of Dealer Price on every album sold, and our costs were virtually nothing since we self recorded, self produced, self distributed. Through keeping the costs down and being smart with our marketing hopefully we wont be too broke from doing what we love



Offtopic...

Goodness, she's lovely 

Ontopic:

Explore those alternative routes (Teaching, sessions, pizza delivery) and educate yourself as to the business - there's a lot of rascals out there.


----------



## DaveCarter

> Goodness, she's lovely



Why thankyou  Like I said, mine 



> educate yourself as to the business - there's a lot of rascals out there



Very true. A few examples Ive heard of:

My band's last drummer was previously in a band signed to Rising Records (this in itself could be classed as an industry mistake, very dodgy label). The contract they were offered stipulated that the label would own the rights to the songs as well as the recordings, which Ive been warned of. The label was literally cut n pasting their songs, turning a 5 minute metal track in to a 3-minute radio friendly track i.e. cut the intros, cut the breakdowns and solos etc. The drummer complained that it was starting to lose them their existing fanbase and that theyd had a lot of negative feedback on the new mixes. The label's response to the rest of the band was ''find a new drummer or find a new label''. They kicked him out the band that week.

Before that they had a gig booked up north, so the promoter had agreed on a fee of £200. It cost them £150 in petrol to get there, half way through their set the promoter disappeared. They never got the money. I told him that they should have booked the gig under a contract, and he said if theyd insisted on that then they wouldnt have been booked.

Having joined the musicians union Ive learnt a lot of ways round this: try to book the gigs under contracts, stating that the agreed fee will be payed in cash on arrival. This ensures you dont get given any crap about 'we didnt sell enough tickets to pay you' etc. If you've agreed on an unconditional fee, there's no reason you shouldnt get it before you play. If they refuse a contract, probably best to avoid the gig, but if you do want to play then get an email from them. If its booked over the phone you have no proof that they owe you any money, but if you get them to confirm the booking in an email mentioning the agreed fee, then that actually counts as a contract. Something to do with an 'electronic signature', which means the MU have actually taken proof of those emails to court and won. Theyd probably take a cut of it but its better than getting nothing at all.

Another guy I know had a similar experience, the venue owner who'd booked them disappeared before they finished playing. At the end of the night when they were leaving it was just the bar staff left to lock up the venue and they refused to pay the band, so they loaded up their van with the house PA and lighting rig!! Then left a message for the venue owner that if he wanted his gear back, he could come collect it when he bought them their fee. The amount of gear they took was about equal to the fee and the guy never came for his gear  Not a recommended approach to the music industry, but it worked!!

Same goes for session work really, whatever you do get it in writing!! Also, NEVER sign a contract unless you've had it checked over by an independant lawyer who can spell it all out for you in plain english. The MU will do this for you for free, as well as provide template contracts for gigs/sessions/producers


----------



## DaveCarter

Ze Kink said:


> I think when Trent Reznor quit his record company and released Ghosts I-IV by himself for $5 (there were more expensive options too, like a limited vinyl version), he made something like millions of dollars during the first week of selling it. Of course, he's well known already, but wtf? Are the record companies honestly taking that much money from the artist? That, and they're asking 4 or 5 times more per cd... crazy.



Check this out:


----------



## Ze Kink

chavhunter said:


> Check this out:




Yeah, great stuff, hadn't seen that earlier  That is indeed how I think things should be done these days. Trent is the greatest


----------



## phantom911

I just finished watching that video, he is pretty much a genius on how to make a living with your music


----------



## Sepultorture

i dunno if this was covered i'm too lazy to read the entire bunch of post responses

but what about death metal bands, i always look at Cannibal Corpse, and they are pretty much the highest paid death metal band and they have been around for over 20 years.

but what really do they earn.

most average death metal bands, most of them still all have day jobs, six feet under for example, dunno bout chris barnes, but the rest of the band all works when they get home


----------



## Ze Kink

phantom911 said:


> thats a cool idea how he put his music on usb keys and put em in the bathrooms at shows



Yeah, but it was even more exiting than it sounds. I remember beating my f5 key after every show to see when someone would upload whatever were inside them, uncovering more pages and new songs etc. 

The ARG was completely epic IMO, I spent hours with it. I really hope that they make the TV series they've been planning that's based on the ARG  and hear the second Year Zero (or actually third, if you count Y34RZ3R0R3M1X3D or whatever it's called as second) album of course!


----------



## DaveCarter

Sepultorture said:


> i dunno if this was covered i'm too lazy to read the entire bunch of post responses
> 
> but what about death metal bands, i always look at Cannibal Corpse, and they are pretty much the highest paid death metal band and they have been around for over 20 years.
> 
> but what really do they earn.
> 
> most average death metal bands, most of them still all have day jobs, six feet under for example, dunno bout chris barnes, but the rest of the band all works when they get home



I remember an interview with Chris Webster (Its on the 'tube) where they asked him if he was making any money out of Death Metal, and he jokes about how there's no mansion or Ferrari in his life, but him and his wife own there own house and he has a pick-up truck. With the time and effort he's put in to the band I think he probably deserves a hell of a lot more than that!! But there just isnt enough demand for DM. In Alex's opinion, it must be worth it


----------



## Nick

liamh said:


> Well, i always thought that no-one who was true to their music gave a fuck about illegal downloading, but now that i know how much they earn, it kinda puts me off.



what?!?!?

Im glad you have now reconsidered this frankly laughable viewpoint.

So someone who is 'true to their music' should give it away for free?

even though they have to spend a ridiculous amount of money on gear, recording fees, practice space/time etc. Even though they dont have time to work 40 hrs a week so that they can afford to pay for that.

How are they supposed to do that if everyone takes their music for free?


----------



## DaveCarter

You could arguably make more money if you DO give it away for free...

...so long as people still have a Reason to Buy  Watch the above video if you havent already, really useful


----------



## Koshchei

I vote that this thread be stickied. It contains WAY too much useful information to be allowed to sink beneath the waves.

Ninjaedit: If you do like a band's music, DO BUY IT.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Q: do bands make money?

A: If they're smart, control their own merch, keep recording costs low, and make sure they have a business head, then yes. Otherwise, no. Plus, it helps to be fairly popular and tour.


----------



## DaveCarter

I was hoping you might chip in  Good way to sum it all up 

Definitely a cunning plan to have this stickied


----------



## Koshchei

This thread is what we call "The Sober Second Glance". The info and experience reflected here is priceless.

I really hope you succeed, Chavhunter (seen Devvo on fat-pie.com?) -- you seem to have the stars in alignment, and I need a host to live vicariously through


----------



## DaveCarter

Koshchei said:


> This thread is what we call "The Sober Second Glance". The info and experience reflected here is priceless.
> 
> I really hope you succeed, Chavhunter (seen Devvo on fat-pie.com?) -- you seem to have the stars in alignment, and I need a host to live vicariously through



"fookin' yeah mate, innit!!!" 

Thanks dude, thats awesome of you, cheers!!!  I'll be keeping everyone here posted if anything does happen for us. It may well not, but you wont find out unless you give it everything you've got!!!


----------



## badger71

Nick said:


> what?!?!?
> 
> Im glad you have now reconsidered this frankly laughable viewpoint.
> 
> So someone who is 'true to their music' should give it away for free?
> 
> even though they have to spend a ridiculous amount of money on gear, recording fees, practice space/time etc. Even though they dont have time to work 40 hrs a week so that they can afford to pay for that.
> 
> How are they supposed to do that if everyone takes their music for free?


 
I interviewed Vai this past December and he expressed his viewpoint on this topic. The short version is this: Be very protective of your creative property and don't give it away. He related to me the story of his first solo album and how the _only_ deal he could get was only going to get him pennies on the dollar per album. So he basically did the leg work himself, found a distributor, and started the ball rolling.....I know, different time than now, but there are ways of still making money in the music business with your creative properties....as shown by the previous vid clip.


----------



## Ze Kink

I also vote for this to be stickied


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Rick said:


> I loved Full Scale.


 

So did I. I just chucked on their album recently and I forgot how much ass they kicked. 

If you liked them, you'll like Zeke's new band Mammal. Fantastic live act. 


Getting back on topic, Zeke is still doing the whole musical thing to get by as well. He was doing Mamma Mia back during the Full Scale days too.


----------



## DarkKnight369

Not sure if anyone posted this, but if not here....



Working Class Rock Star


----------



## DevinShidaker

Sorry for the bump, but I felt like I should share.

I play in a full time touring metal band, signed to Metal Blade, with albums in stores. Our shows do quite well in terms of capacity, and we sell quite a bit of merchandise at each show. While all of this sounds great, we still make next to nothing. We all live with our parents or grandparents, and we sleep on floors anywhere we can while we're on tour. When you're out there promoters for some reason like to take a shit on you. We have a set guarantee for each show, it is usually between $250-$300 depending on the area we're in. Sadly a lot of these promoters are money hungry bastards who will just as soon keep all of the money and bail on you or try to tell you that the show did well but not "well enough". The thing that really sucks is most bands in our shoes have to end up getting our money one way or the other... there have been more than a few occasions where we've had to physically drag a promoter to an ATM machine. It sounds brutal and it sounds wrong, but in all essence, they are robbing us. Touring is a lot of hard work, the only "break" really is when we get to play for a half an hour. We have to drive for hours on end in a van that may break down at any second (which by the was is uninsured because we can't afford the payments after paying off all of the other shit we have to pay for!), we have to haul our gear in and out of places every day, set up our merch table, all of that stuff that is physically and mentally taxing. As for food, IF we got paid that night, each guy gets 5 bucks that day to spend on food, that is all of the money we make. Besides that it comes down to pretty much being a peasant and pocketing pre made sandwiches from whatever gas station you've stopped at. Yeah it's stealing and it's wrong, but one way or the other, you have to eat. When the tour is all said and done with, any money you've made gets shipped off to pay the label, the management, the merch companies, the booking agents, and any other debts you surely have. To put this in perspective, our last tour was a month long, and my cell phone bill is $50 a month, I am struggling right now to pay that. But do I want to do anything else? Hell no. I love being in a different state every night, I love playing in a band, I love seeing kids faces when we play a song they might know. I don't want to do anything else, because even though I'd have money, it wouldn't make me happy. The war that us 5 guys fight together is great, maybe someday we will win, but if not we'll all go down fighting.

So next time you go to see a band that's touring in a van, just remember, they live in that van, they probably get to shower about once a week, and they're doing it all for the love of playing in front of you. Buy a t-shirt from them, or try to help them find a place to stay. hell if you can't do any of that, throw some change in their tip jar, believe me it goes a long way...

Sorry again for the bump and the long long post.


----------



## Arminius

^keep fighting


----------



## Mindcrime1204

Pretty intense man! I'm glad you could share your experience with us, and anytime your crew rolls through SA, drop me a message and I'll throw an AWESOME BBQ! Promise!


----------



## DevinShidaker

thanks dude! That would be much appreciated!!!!!!!


----------



## Scar Symmetry

ok so I know for a fact that the dude from Nile (is it Dallas?) has to work at Pizza Hut when they're not touring to make ends meet.

metal is pretty underground, and if you're underground in metal then you're probably going to be double-poor.

unless you're Metallica, Linkin Park, Slipknot or Korn you're pretty much on a minimum wage


----------



## DevinShidaker

ha minimum wage would be a blessing! And I would have though Nile was doing at least decent for themselves. That really sucks!


----------



## Rick

I'm not buying a shirt from you, Devin.


----------



## DevinShidaker

ha I'm not saying buy a shirt from me, but if you see a band and they impress you, and you think they worked hard enough and deserve your contribution, then by all means contribute!


----------



## Rick

Depends on how much you guys suck that night. 

I'll definitely grab one from you guys.


----------



## kmanick

I feel for you guys.
If I was 18 again and had the chance to go down this road , I don't know if I would.
Back in the 80's (when I was actively gigging) is was a different world.
these days it seems almost impossible to actually "make a living" by being a musician, unless you're one of the "Pop divas" and you're entire audience is 12 year old girls.
Hang in there as long as you can!


----------



## vampiregenocide

Scar Symmetry said:


> ok so I know for a fact that the dude from Nile (is it Dallas?) has to work at Pizza Hut when they're not touring to make ends meet.
> 
> metal is pretty underground, and if you're underground in metal then you're probably going to be double-poor.
> 
> unless you're Metallica, Linkin Park, Slipknot or Korn you're pretty much on a minimum wage



You'd have thought he could make a fair bit from lessons or something, producding or whatnot. 

I think its down to how you manage it. Some musicians make fuck all, but because they manage it well, and always have something on the go e.g teaching, clinics etc.


----------



## Sacha

envenomedcky said:


> Sorry for the bump, but I felt like I should share.
> 
> I play in a full time touring metal band, signed to Metal Blade, with albums in stores. Our shows do quite well in terms of capacity, and we sell quite a bit of merchandise at each show. While all of this sounds great, we still make next to nothing. We all live with our parents or grandparents, and we sleep on floors anywhere we can while we're on tour. When you're out there promoters for some reason like to take a shit on you. We have a set guarantee for each show, it is usually between $250-$300 depending on the area we're in. Sadly a lot of these promoters are money hungry bastards who will just as soon keep all of the money and bail on you or try to tell you that the show did well but not "well enough". The thing that really sucks is most bands in our shoes have to end up getting our money one way or the other... there have been more than a few occasions where we've had to physically drag a promoter to an ATM machine. It sounds brutal and it sounds wrong, but in all essence, they are robbing us. Touring is a lot of hard work, the only "break" really is when we get to play for a half an hour. We have to drive for hours on end in a van that may break down at any second (which by the was is uninsured because we can't afford the payments after paying off all of the other shit we have to pay for!), we have to haul our gear in and out of places every day, set up our merch table, all of that stuff that is physically and mentally taxing. As for food, IF we got paid that night, each guy gets 5 bucks that day to spend on food, that is all of the money we make. Besides that it comes down to pretty much being a peasant and pocketing pre made sandwiches from whatever gas station you've stopped at. Yeah it's stealing and it's wrong, but one way or the other, you have to eat. When the tour is all said and done with, any money you've made gets shipped off to pay the label, the management, the merch companies, the booking agents, and any other debts you surely have. To put this in perspective, our last tour was a month long, and my cell phone bill is $50 a month, I am struggling right now to pay that. But do I want to do anything else? Hell no. I love being in a different state every night, I love playing in a band, I love seeing kids faces when we play a song they might know. I don't want to do anything else, because even though I'd have money, it wouldn't make me happy. The war that us 5 guys fight together is great, maybe someday we will win, but if not we'll all go down fighting.
> 
> So next time you go to see a band that's touring in a van, just remember, they live in that van, they probably get to shower about once a week, and they're doing it all for the love of playing in front of you. Buy a t-shirt from them, or try to help them find a place to stay. hell if you can't do any of that, throw some change in their tip jar, believe me it goes a long way...
> 
> Sorry again for the bump and the long long post.



Kudos for sharing that.  Not a lot of bands talk about it but just about every signed / touring band I know has a very similar story. 

Lots of respect to those that live that life but it's not for me any more I don't think. At my age I need a little security and a place to call home and come home to. 

I think I live and breathe music as much as the next guy but my career is what gives me the resources to continue to pursue it, even if it is in more of a constrained fashion then some. 

I feel lucky to be able to write songs, record albums and play shows with / for my friends and that's enough for me. 

I don't think things where always this hard for musicians (maybe i'm wrong), but these are the times and the society we live in unfortunately.


----------



## DevinShidaker

yeah man, these times aren't like the old days where a rock band was treated like royalty, you don't get to go destroy hotel rooms and hang out with groupies. Pretty much every underground metal band is fighting as hard as possible to hang in there, and sadly a lot of competition is coming up, lots of bands are really trying to out do each other to stay relevant and to keep their fan base up, instead of just writing songs they want to play, it's really a shame. And none of the fans seem to understand this. We had to cancel a tour a while back because our van was from the stone age and it was dying at every stop light. We couldn't afford to fix it, and we definitely couldn't afford to cancel and be out in the middle of nowhere. So after cancelling, there were of course a lot of kids saying "I hope everything is ok", but the majority was "what the fuck you guys cancelled? Fuck you!" as if we're sitting around laughing about bailing on this tour. You just have to keep pushing through it, shit happens, shit will always happen, and until something better happens, you have to keep at it.


----------



## DaveCarter

Ouch dude, it sucks that that level of broke extends to bands on labels as big as Metal Blade. Im still not giving up though, its all Id be happy doing so I intend to do it for as long as I can, just so that Ive done it  Huge respect to you guys for carrying on regardless!!


----------



## Scar Symmetry

the vocalist in my band used to be signed to Metal Blade and he had the same deal.

he got so fed up with it that he got a job alongside touring where he could take loadsa time off.

the guy gets paid shitloads too


----------



## DaveCarter

Scar Symmetry said:


> the vocalist in my band used to be signed to Metal Blade and he had the same deal.
> 
> *he got so fed up with it that he got a job alongside touring where he could take loadsa time off.
> 
> the guy gets paid shitloads too*



and that job was???????


----------



## El Caco

The paranoid part of me suspects that this is part of the system, make people think they have to sell out and land a contract with a label to make a living. I don't know it may be easier in Australia but I've known well known guys that have struggled and eventually folded and other smaller guys that have managed themselves more, taken more control over everything they do and been able to consistently make some money. 

It sounds to me like promoters over there are cunts, it doesn't matter how much you love what you do, don't ever let people piss on you or steal from you. Find bands you can work with, pool your resources, organise and promote your own shows. Think about it, 4 bands hire a venue, do some promotion, sell a lot of tickets at a reasonable price, EP sales at a reasonable price, other merchandise, go to next town and repeat. Your not going to get rich doing this but you can make a decent living, I know people who have been in average bands and watched them make a decent living from music for 15 years. At the same time I have watched much higher profile death metal bands break up and go on to regular gigs in pubs playing rock covers because it pays the bills. It pisses me off that one of my favourite Aussie bands ever not only no longer exists but there is now no memory of them, no songs on the internet, nothing, I had their album, it went walkabout and now there is no way of ever hearing their music again.


----------



## Maniacal

The safest bet is to have a good job and just play fairly local gigs for next to no money. You still get to gig and you need to even think about money/food/sleeping arrangements.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Maniacal said:


> The safest bet is to have a good job and just play fairly local gigs for next to no money. You still get to gig and you need to even think about money/food/sleeping arrangements.



fuck that, I want the grit of tour, the feeling I get when I see kids scrambling to get my singer's attention because they are singing the lyrics back to him.

for that, I'd gladly sleep on people's floors and barely eat one meal a day


----------



## Variant

Why don't we just write terrible pop songs every few years or so and cash in on them, then do what we love the rest of the time. 

*Note to self: Work on shitty one-off pop side project.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

or have the best of both worlds and start a Crabcore band!


----------



## Variant

^
No, I doubt that Fellate Fellate! are making bank.  

I'm thinking Jonas Brothers bad: Narcissistic, panderous mall-soundtrack shit aimed at 14-year girls. Make several mil and sit on it while revealing your true avant-prog-cyber-death-experimental-etc. self. Then point a laugh at them all.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

I have always wondered how rich I could get if I wore brightly coloured clothes and sang about gettin' low in da club wit shortay...

maybe in another lifetime


----------



## Variant

I'd do it once, if for nothing else, to piss off all the douchebags that bought my (intentionally bad) music.


----------



## Koshchei

Variant said:


> ^
> No, I doubt that Fellate Fellate! are making bank.
> 
> I'm thinking Jonas Brothers bad: Narcissistic, panderous mall-soundtrack shit aimed at 14-year girls. Make several mil and sit on it while revealing your true avant-prog-cyber-death-experimental-etc. self. Then point a laugh at them all.



But... The Jonas Brothers make little girls' 'ginies tingle...


----------



## Variant

^
Rep. for proper apostrophe use in that statement.


----------



## DevinShidaker

Attack Attack! is making some decent money. They're from my home town and they're a bunch of douches. Their old singer was a good friend of mine for a long time until we all found out he was lying to us about having heart disease to get attention... reeeeal shitty person. And what's funny is before homo homo! was a band, I never ONCE saw one of those kids at any shows at all. They'll fizzle out eventually, that's what happens when you have shit handed to you instead of working for it.


----------



## badger71

envenomedcky said:


> Sorry again for the bump and the long long post.


 
No..it's good that things like this are posted. However, this is not just a "happens in metal" thing. It happens in all genres. I guarantee there is a country music forum where musicians are saying the same thing....making a living wage in this industry is hard. I threw in the towel years ago because I didn't know enough about the business side of the music business. Now with "pay to play" and internet piracy, bands don't really make their money with the music, they make it with merchandise, licensing, and endorsements.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

envenomedcky said:


> Attack Attack! is making some decent money.



Variant, here's proof, we need to start a sea-food flavoured side project!


----------



## ralphy1976

actually Dave, since you are in a band, does your band make any $$$ (sorry no GBP sign on my keyboard!!) or does it work?


----------



## Scar Symmetry

£ copy and paste away!

we've just released our first EP so we're not seeing any sustainable income out of it yet, but when a few of the dudes come back from university we'll be devoting a lot more of our time to Traces


----------



## ralphy1976

££££££££££££££££
££££££££££££££££
£££££££££££££££
££££££££££££££££
££££££££££
££££££££££
££££££££££
££££££££££
 £££££££££hanks 
good to hear that you have a positive attitude. how's the work with ESP coming along too? any news you can share with us "groupies"..male that is ok?!!!


----------



## Bumskull

David Ellefson had a great video about royalties and he said the break down was like this:

$100,000 toward recording the album
$25,000 for video
$75,000 for the next tour (probably covers 1 month, all the rest comes from promoters)

So basically, as David says, a band is $200,000 in the hole before they even sell 1 record. They make about $1, 2 tops, per record, so a band has to sell 200,000 just to break even. Remember, this money is not going to the studio or stage managers it's going straight to the label. The label has to pay all of these costs before the album starts selling, which is why a lot of labels will try to get their bands to write pop hits. So they can cover their asses and make a profit.

EDIT: Also because of this it is the LABEL not the artist who own the rights to any song or album. 

Being a musician sucks  I know that SX was only able to start touring after V, and to make a profit probably after Odyssey. This is why bands prefer to tour. It gives them more dough to pay of debts.


----------



## DC23

This thread is depressing. But, I think it's very important and very informative. Most kids around here that play in bands start writing songs and then think they will be famous right away. They give up on school and focus on playing tiny bar shows and have nothing to show for it but pennies. I love music, love to play it, love to write, but would I drop out of university and give up on my degree to try to 'make it' in a band, no. Gigging and touring is fun, but I think knowing that you have a secure job that makes you a decent amount of money would really make touring and all of that a lot more enjoyable (knowing that it isn't you only source of income). I'm not ragging on any bands that really do try to make it as their full-time and sole income method. I think people that devoted to music deserve to be rewarded for their hard work (but sadly, with the industry, rarely is that the case). I just know that I couldn't enjoy it as much if I spent every waking moment besides playing freaking out about how to pay off my phone bill, or buying food! Either way, metal is awesome and I wouldn't play anything else (although sometimes the thought of releasing a pop-rock album with one song being a nice radio friendly catchy song and every other song being blistering death metal does come to mind haha).


----------



## Scali

The only money I ever made with anything music-related is selling some of my gear


----------



## Bumskull

Scali said:


> The only money I ever made with anything music-related is selling some of my gear



Greatest quote ever.


----------



## DevinShidaker

ralphy1976 said:


> ££££££££££££££££
> ££££££££££££££££
> £££££££££££££££
> ££££££££££££££££
> ££££££££££
> ££££££££££
> ££££££££££
> ££££££££££
> £££££££££hanks
> good to hear that you have a positive attitude. how's the work with ESP coming along too? any news you can share with us "groupies"..male that is ok?!!!



It's actually not coming along at all, the deal was being set up by our old manager, who we fired... he made all of these promises and followed through on none of them, so we kicked his ass to the curb, not going to pay somebody for not working. As of right now we're trying to put together a stellar press kit that we can shoot over to Ibanez... that's what we REALLY want!


----------



## Inazone

For my own purposes, I've decided to treat any out-of-town show as a road trip that might end up paying for itself, meaning travel expenses only. A tour would be a real vacation, and since people usually pay to go on vacation, any money earned on the road would be like a bonus.

My bandmates and I are all in our mid-20s through 30s and have obligations at home that are already a financial drain. I'm luckier than most because I get four weeks of paid time off each year, but for those that don't, any time off from a day job is money lost already. If I'm taking paid vacation from work, I'm at least not out any lost wages, so the prospect of making back gas money is about the best situation I can hope for. For some of the guys, it's going to be tough no matter what. I can only imagine how much harder it would be without at least a couple of financially stable band members or extremely supportive families.


----------



## Rick

envenomedcky said:


> It's actually not coming along at all, the deal was being set up by our old manager, who we fired... he made all of these promises and followed through on none of them, so we kicked his ass to the curb, not going to pay somebody for not working. As of right now we're trying to put together a stellar press kit that we can shoot over to Ibanez... that's what we REALLY want!



That's cool, Devin. Do you guys use 7s?


----------



## Variant

Scar Symmetry said:


> Variant, here's proof, we need to start a sea-food flavoured side project!



We'll crabwalk our way into the hearts of Americans.


----------



## Prosthetic Rec

Bumskull said:


> David Ellefson had a great video about royalties and he said the break down was like this:
> 
> $100,000 toward recording the album
> $25,000 for video
> $75,000 for the next tour (probably covers 1 month, all the rest comes from promoters)
> 
> So basically, as David says, a band is $200,000 in the hole before they even sell 1 record. They make about $1, 2 tops, per record, so a band has to sell 200,000 just to break even. Remember, this money is not going to the studio or stage managers it's going straight to the label. The label has to pay all of these costs before the album starts selling, which is why a lot of labels will try to get their bands to write pop hits. So they can cover their asses and make a profit.
> 
> EDIT: Also because of this it is the LABEL not the artist who own the rights to any song or album.
> 
> Being a musician sucks  I know that SX was only able to start touring after V, and to make a profit probably after Odyssey. This is why bands prefer to tour. It gives them more dough to pay of debts.




Every band has a different deal. Some artists (or their managers/lawyers) are able to negotiate different publishing deals so the label doesn't own 100% or maybe the label will own 100% but the publishing reverts back to the artist after a specific amount of time. 

Indie labels (or metal labels) don't pressure artists to write "hit tunes" to recoup expenses. If that was their main concern they wouldn't sign bands like SX in the first place. The majority of label owners (at this level) are all about the music and the bands. They sign them because they like them.
The Major labels are a different story altogether. More than half the time they don't even let their artists write their own songs. They have staffed song-writers, who have also worked out publishing/writing deals. Their level of success/status will determine what % of publishing/rights they give up.


----------



## DaveCarter

^fair enough, but Im still determined to stay unsigned and in control for as long as I can. Ive spent the last 3 years learning the ins and outs of the industry and Im still convinced thats the best way to do it for as long as is possible. Im one of the few musicians I know thats trying as hard as I can not to get signed


----------



## DevinShidaker

Rick said:


> That's cool, Devin. Do you guys use 7s?



Of course! tuned to drop G#

I would love an LACS, RGA shape, 27 inch scale, blank ebony fretboard (maybe an inverted cross on the 12th for EXTRA EVIL), with an almost "distressed" almost black cherry, finish on a flamed top with natural binding. Mahogany body, maple/walnut neck through, matching headstock, lo-pro edge trem, and as for pickups, well there I am unsure.


----------



## Rick

Keep dreaming. 

Just kidding, I hope you get your dream guitar like I got mine!


----------



## repoman1

My girlfriend's sister's boyfriend (!?) worked at a Guitar Center in NJ with the keyboard player from Symphony X for five years, during their break from V in 2002 to Paradise Lost in 2007.

I love my band, but I'm staying in school for sure..


----------



## Rick

The drummer from Cold works at the GC by my house. Cool guy, BTW.


----------



## ubarhax

This thread is kinda depressing. My dream is to be in a band and be able to support myself with the money made touring, album sales, merch, etc. I can't see myself doing anything not involving music as a career.


----------



## stuz719

ubarhax said:


> This thread is kinda depressing. My dream is to be in a band and be able to support myself with the money made touring, album sales, merch, etc. I can't see myself doing anything not involving music as a career.



Find a band you think can sell tickets and merchandise and manage them, taking 10%-20% off the gross door and shirt sales.

That should keep the wolves from the door, at least for a while.

A friend of mine (R.I.P.) used to manage a number of pub/club circuit bands (and some slightly bigger, including major label deals) and often used to joke about how he often made money while the band finished some gigs actually owing the promoter...

Harsh, but true.


----------



## sevenstringj

Maybe Obama could channel some stimulus money to death metal bands.

"Bucks for Br00talz"


----------



## Meldville

ubarhax said:


> This thread is kinda depressing. My dream is to be in a band and be able to support myself with the money made touring, album sales, merch, etc. I can't see myself doing anything not involving music as a career.



And it's a good dream, but just realize that playing extreme music is almost definitely not going to do that.  Go out, have fun, work hard, but don't expect to make a comfortable living playing any form of extreme music, unless of course you have 0 debt and are down to live with your parents


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis

This is one of the reasons record labels as we know them are on the way out. With myspace and such sites and with many ways of making your own music and getting it out there, a lot of bands are going DIY and keeping all of the money, using it to fund the expenses. It's possible, but you can record your own cds, do promotion, actually rent a tour bus, do shows, etc..and at the end of it all you won't be paying a label the money they spent on you because it's your money. To be honest I like that idea better from a financial standpoint. Granted you still won't be rolling in dough clearly..but no one else will see any profit from it than you if there is any to be had. Mind you..NOTHING IS FREE and you have to pay for it anyways. Studios, buses, all that come out of the money you're supposed to get..if you've made any at all..so you may as well cut out the middle man, do it yourself, and keep whatever money is left


----------



## kmanick

I have a good friend who has been somewhat of a "mentor" to me since the early 80's.
He's an amazing player, who has tried and tried for the last 20 years to "hit it big".
It never happened. Now he's playing in a cover band that gigs every Friday and Saturday night and they get paid $1,000.00 a night.
They split that 4 ways so he's making $2,000.00 a month playing covers.

He's so digusted but his love of playing keeps him going, he loves to be on stage.


----------



## Inazone

I suppose being in a touring band could be looked at the same as pro sports, specifically baseball. I read an article about an up-and-coming minor league player who is on track to play in the majors by 2011. Right now, during the season, he gets $30 a day. If things work out for him, he could be making millions in a couple years, but for now, he travels around with a bunch of other guys playing in front of small crowds, working a day job when he isn't playing.

I made more than that working at McDonald's when I was 15 years old. Really puts things in perspective.


----------



## Cheesebuiscut

Its not often you get to both do what you love AND get what you need all at the same time.

Everything has its cost.


----------



## Rick

kmanick said:


> I have a good friend who has been somewhat of a "mentor" to me since the early 80's.
> He's an amazing player, who has tried and tried for the last 20 years to "hit it big".
> It never happened. Now he's playing in a cover band that gigs every Friday and Saturday night and they get paid $1,000.00 a night.
> They split that 4 ways so he's making $2,000.00 a month playing covers.
> 
> He's so digusted but his love of playing keeps him going, he loves to be on stage.



Not bad. I'm guessing he has another job on top of this?


----------



## xiphoscesar

*i saw suffocation live at summer slaughter iin the summer*
*i remember the vocalist saying before the next song came up*
*"when im at home, im working at a part time job, because if i wasnt, i would be killing people"*
*that gives you and idea that they dont make enough to make a living either*


----------



## Maniacal

Its easily possible to make good money as a teacher of music. Average rate for guitar teachers in my area is £30 p/h. Everybody wants to be a rock star now, and that just does not happen.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Maniacal said:


> Everybody wants to be a rock star now, and that just does not happen.



look at Sylosis, it can be done.


----------



## MarkB

Maniacal said:


> Its easily possible to make good money as a teacher of music. Average rate for guitar teachers in my area is £30 p/h. Everybody wants to be a rock star now, and that just does not happen.


 

30 dollars an hour? ..hmmmm where is this area you speak of?


----------



## Scar Symmetry

MarkB said:


> 30 dollars an hour? ..hmmmm wheres your area?



30 GBP per year


----------



## MarkB

Scar Symmetry said:


> 30 GBP per year


 

didn't notice that, sorry


----------



## Maniacal

Scar Symmetry said:


> look at Sylosis, it can be done.



Well I very much doubt they are earning the salary of a "rock star"

They maybe get 20k each? If that?



Scar Symmetry said:


> 30 GBP per year



?

No I mean £30 an hour, several hours a day. 

I know a teacher near me who charges £40 per hour and is fully booked.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Maniacal said:


> Well I very much doubt they are earning the salary of a "rock star"
> 
> They maybe get 20k each? If that?
> 
> ?
> 
> No I mean £30 an hour, several hours a day.
> 
> I know a teacher near me who charges £40 per hour and is fully booked.



well I'm not going to ask them but they are on the rise and show no signs of slowing down... the rock star thing can be done but it's not what people think it is.

my typo with the hour/year, the point I was getting across was the GBP part.


----------



## Maniacal

I see. 

Well I am sure some metal bands are earning great money, but my point is its a rare occurrence. Now it seems everybody who is in a band wants to make a living from a band, but there isnt room for everyone... only the lucky few


----------



## Scar Symmetry

circumstances permitting, in my opinion it's the clever ones that make it.


----------



## Maniacal

Not always, but its certainly the business minded that seem to do better.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

granted there are just the 'flavour of the week' bands that don't do anything big or clever but somehow pushthrough, but their success is almost always short-lived.


----------



## Maniacal

yepper. 

I guess it depends what you want most, fame or money. 

I would go for money right now.


----------



## eleven59

It is _entirely_ possible to make money in music. _BUT_ you have to spend money up front, learn to DIY, and be smart about things. It also helps if people (even just a few) like your music. The amount of money is entirely based on a) how many people like your music, and b) how smart you are about your career in music.

If you are planning on getting signed to a label, never worrying again, and living like a rock star, quit now.

If you are planning on working hard, taking responsibility for your own career, and making sacrifices to get by enough to keep doing it, continue.

A breakdown of my band's first year (not typical):

12 months of jam space rent ($125 x 12 = $1500 out of pocket, for a tiny, terrible jam space)
Recorded EP ($1000-ish out of pocket)
Purchased van (entirely out of guitarist's pocket, we all split insurance out of pocket every month, $100 x 12 = $1200)
Miscellaneous merch (CDs, t-shirts, designs, myspace layout, $2000-ish all out of pocket)
Played a shit ton of local-ish (<3 hour drive) shows, making an average of $80-100 a night, sometimes more, sometimes less, and covering gas, etc. out of pocket.

That's $5700-ish, not counting gas, strings, sticks, and other gear/expenses.

BUT, we started our 5 week tour with a couple thousand dollars saved up, fully stocked on t-shirts, CDs, and stickers, and made sure we saved up our own spending money for tour. In the five weeks, we made our full $150 guarantee maybe half the time, but had a few shows that paid more, and made a killing overall on merch. 

Overall, we made more money on shows and merch than we spent on GAS and some minor van repairs, and we all had enough money to support ourselves going into it. We came home, spent a little to cover the jam space rent and van insurance for the first month home while we recovered financially, spent a bunch on another t-shirt design and had a bunch of shirts made. 

Do we expect every tour to be like this? Fuck no. But that's why we're smart with our money.

It helps that we're all ok with going broke and living off of the kindness of friends/family/strangers as long as needed, and eventually evening out to being able to pay our small bills/rent and keep doing it.


----------



## eleven59

Also, my guitarist (the one who bought the van) asked Shannon from Black Dahlia Murder about this very subject when we opened for them.

He said that in All That Remains he wasn't making hardly anything, but now in TBDM he's making enough that he couldn't quit and get a better paying job. 

They also tour constantly, with everybody, and their merch "table" filled almost an entire wall at the venue, and included shirts, shorts, belt buckles, skateboards, and pretty much anything else you can think of, and I saw quite a few kids at the (somewhat poorly attended) show buying their stuff. This was right after they rolled their trailer too.


----------



## ZXIIIT

eleven59 said:


> Also, my guitarist (the one who bought the van) asked Shannon from Black Dahlia Murder about this very subject when we opened for them.
> 
> He said that in All That Remains he wasn't making hardly anything, but now in TBDM he's making enough that he couldn't quit and get a better paying job.
> 
> They also tour constantly, with everybody, and their merch "table" filled almost an entire wall at the venue, and included shirts, shorts, belt buckles, skateboards, and pretty much anything else you can think of, and I saw quite a few kids at the (somewhat poorly attended) show buying their stuff. This was right after they rolled their trailer too.



That's kinda what my band is doing, we branched out and made lighters, shot glasses, DVDs and car decals.

The more merch you have (and sell), the more money that goes back into the band and keeps it going.


----------



## eleven59

ZOMB13 said:


> That's kinda what my band is doing, we branched out and made lighters, shot glasses, DVDs and car decals.
> 
> The more merch you have (and sell), the more money that goes back into the band and keeps it going.



 The only way you can get screwed and not make money these days in music is to sign a shitty deal with a shitty label. The best bet is to stay independent and do as much yourself as you can until someone comes along who can offer you something that will truly benefit you, and won't take control/money/rights out of your hands.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

i.e. DON'T sign to Earache 

I've heard really bad things about Metal Blade too, Nuclear Blast is definitely the way to go!


----------



## mattofvengeance

Scar Symmetry said:


> i.e. DON'T sign to Earache
> 
> I've heard really bad things about Metal Blade too, Nuclear Blast is definitely the way to go!



Yeah, I've heard nothing but good things about Nuclear Blast.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

they take care of their bands and they have more money than God... I know which label I want my band to be on.


----------



## MikeH

Scar Symmetry said:


> i.e. DON'T sign to Earache
> 
> I've heard really bad things about Metal Blade too, Nuclear Blast is definitely the way to go!



I'm personal friends with a band signed to Earache (And Hell Followed With) and they've had nothing bad to say since joining with Earache. Could be that they've only been on for about a month or so, but I hear good things.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Earache fucked Decapitated out of a lot of money, and at the moment are signing small bands that don't have large fanbases, which makes me question why they are doing that.


----------



## elrrek

Ibz_rg said:


> I'm personal friends with a band signed to Earache (And Hell Followed With) and they've had nothing bad to say since joining with Earache. Could be that they've only been on for about a month or so, but I hear good things.



The list of bands that Earache have destroyed through mismanagement, not paying them and generally being rubbish at business and decent people extends far beyond Decapitated.


----------



## Fenrisulfr

I thought Derek Roddy had to quit touring for quite some time because Nile and the bands alike were not making any income?

I'm not too sure, I had a band on victory for a while.. never really saw "income"

Had funds to play shows and what not and get by.. but hell, I was still working for "The Great Escape Records and Comics" here as a day job.

Then again.. Victory isn't exactly.. "metal"


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Nile all have day jobs when not touring.

Dallas works at Pizza Hut.


----------



## willyman101

Scar Symmetry said:


> Nile all have day jobs when not touring.
> 
> Dallas works at Pizza Hut.



Really makes you question your desire to do this sort of stuff as a living. Through all the playing music and writing it and connecting with fans, I just don't think it's worth it.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

for most people, 'selling out' is the way to secure yourself that money you always wanted.

Linkin Park, Killswitch Engage and In Flames I guarantee are up to their eyeballs in money.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

willyman101 said:


> Really makes you question your desire to do this sort of stuff as a living. Through all the playing music and writing it and connecting with fans, I just don't think it's worth it.


 

Is money the point of living your life? To me life needs to offer much more fullfillment than money or other material riches. My heart needs to be rich, not my wallet, and music is what does this for me. You may think its not worth it, and that's ok (you don't have to feel the way I do), but to some its all that matters.



Scar Symmetry said:


> for most people, 'selling out' is the way to secure yourself that money you always wanted.
> 
> Linkin Park, Killswitch Engage and In Flames I guarantee are up to their eyeballs in money.


 

For shame - In Flames have been making the music they've wanted to since they started. They made no conscious decision to become more popular, they've just worked their asses off for nearly 20 years. You can hear the progression on their albums from 'The Jester Race' days to the new stuff - they never really "sold out".


----------



## Kei

While it is nice to say that it's all about the music, try saying it when your family is sick, when you haven't eaten in 4-5 days, and you don't have electricity or even toilet paper. The value of materialism becomes truly apparent at that point. 

I'm living in Mexico at the moment (originally from the United States), and I'm a vocalist and composer. My spouse is a VA for dubbing shows at Televisa, but has been extremely sick and unable to work. I can't technically work, because I'm just on a tourist visa. Anyhow, because my spouse already knows a lot of the entertainment industry ropes here in Mexico City, we're launching a strange campaign.

I'll be starting to sing Mexican love ballads at lesbian clubs (I'm a moderately attractive lesbian myself, or so Ive been lead to believe). The queer community here apparently has quite a large hold on the entertainment industry. 

If I'm lucky then I'll start being asked to sing at some bigger places, and hopefully achieve a gay fan base. So that when I put together the melodic metal band I want to create, I'll already have people who are interested, and who will promote my group because they like -me-, even if they're not big metal fans. 

My girl says people won't stay to listen to your -new- music, until you've given them some old music they like and they have gotten to know your face. Maybe this is how it is everywhere, and I'm just the aberration who is always looking for new music. I don't know.

So, I'm selling myself to the lesbians and the queens... I guess better them than some jerk at a label.


----------



## Quantumface

its true. most would rather play any music for a living then work a 9-5. which would explain selling out.


----------



## DDDorian

I'm sure I already posted as much the first time around, but I'll post it again: being a full-time musician and making a decent living aren't mutually exclusive but if you go into one with the realistic expectation that you'll find the other you're kidding yourself, and that goes double for metal.



Kei said:


> While it is nice to say that it's all about the music, try saying it when your family is sick, when you haven't eaten in 4-5 days, and you don't have electricity or even toilet paper. The value of materialism becomes truly apparent at that point.
> 
> I'm living in Mexico at the moment (originally from the United States), and I'm a vocalist and composer. My spouse is a VA for dubbing shows at Televisa, but has been extremely sick and unable to work. I can't technically work, because I'm just on a tourist visa. Anyhow, because my spouse already knows a lot of the entertainment industry ropes here in Mexico City, we're launching a strange campaign.
> 
> I'll be starting to sing Mexican love ballads at lesbian clubs (I'm a moderately attractive lesbian myself, or so Ive been lead to believe). The queer community here apparently has quite a large hold on the entertainment industry.
> 
> If I'm lucky then I'll start being asked to sing at some bigger places, and hopefully achieve a gay fan base. So that when I put together the melodic metal band I want to create, I'll already have people who are interested, and who will promote my group because they like -me-, even if they're not big metal fans.
> 
> My girl says people won't stay to listen to your -new- music, until you've given them some old music they like and they have gotten to know your face. Maybe this is how it is everywhere, and I'm just the aberration who is always looking for new music. I don't know.
> 
> So, I'm selling myself to the lesbians and the queens... I guess better them than some jerk at a label.



Don't you worry that by marketing yourself to a gay audience you'll forever paint yourself as some sort of novelty act and be appreciated or dismissed solely for being "that gay metal band"?


----------



## Daemoniac

DDDorian said:


> Don't you worry that by marketing yourself to a gay audience you'll forever paint yourself as some sort of novelty act and be appreciated or dismissed solely for being "that gay metal band"?



Given the situation, I'm guessing it doesn't matter.


----------



## DDDorian

Well I'm assuming the metal band would come once she's financially secure and isn't playing gay venues as a pure marketing ploy.


----------



## Daemoniac

But the marketing ploy is more about making money _now_ as opposed to (deliberately) opening up the audience to her "actual" music... Her partner is sick and she needs money, hence this move.

That's what I got from the post at least


----------



## Kei

DDDorian said:


> I'm sure I already posted as much the first time around, but I'll post it again: being a full-time musician and making a decent living aren't mutually exclusive but if you go into one with the realistic expectation that you'll find the other you're kidding yourself, and that goes double for metal.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't you worry that by marketing yourself to a gay audience you'll forever paint yourself as some sort of novelty act and be appreciated or dismissed solely for being "that gay metal band"?



I'm gay, and there's nothing I can do about that. Well, I could pretend to be straight, but I feel that's lame. I don't expect my band members to be gay by any means. So I don't expect that it will be an issue. 

It's about getting my voice known to a community which has deep ties to the music and entertainment industry in Mexico City (and making enough money to support the musical venture I am truly interested in). Of course, we'd be doing gigs in the places that cater to metal, and promoting ourselves in the chopo as metal. 

It's simply that instead of being ignored in a club, because no one knows who the heck we are, there will be a crowd that specifically came because they already know they like my voice. And those people will have told their friends and their friend's friends who are also the same people who run the radio stations and television industries (who if they hear it and like it, might give us air play or an interview). 

Even if I were straight, this would still be the way to go. I'm still a decent looking girl with a nice voice, and as long as they liked it that would be enough. It's probably just a bonus that I'm also a member of that community to begin with. Most famous Mexican artists have gone this route, they started out going to clubs and singing old Mexican songs that everyone liked, so that once they were well received enough, there was already a fan base for when they played their own original music. No one will listen to your music otherwise here.

Often times you'll go to a bar, and the owner will give you a set list of music you have to play because everyone likes it and expects it, then you get the last x amount of time to play your stuff. It's sad, but most often people just leave the bar when they start playing their original tunes. My spouse says "I don't know who you are, I don't know what you're playing. When I'm drunk I want to sing along to music I know, so I'll go somewhere else if I don't know you or what you're playing." This seems to be the general mentality.


----------



## Mindcrime1204

Being as youre a chick, I'm sure itll be easier to create a fanbase for rock/metal...

Good luck in your venture!




ps: i love lesbians!


----------



## kittencore

sorry i didn't read the whole thread so this might of been mentioned, but what do you guys think cannibal corpse makes? i mean, i guess something decent because they've been at it for so damn long...


----------



## FearFactoryDBCR

Yeah bands make barely anything, people seem to think if you get signed you don't have to worry about money. Which is very much the opposite, even Randy Blythe said he had a side job after coming back from tours early on in his Lamb of God career.


----------



## datalore

Devin Townsend's advice for aspiring metal guitarists: Learn a trade. 



I agree. Even if learning a trade means getting a formal education in music so that you can teach, you need a contingency plan. You cannot expect to make anything playing metal.


----------



## raximkoron

A pretty eye-opening thread.

I've never had the aspirations of sitting on my ass all day writing music to line my pockets, but I do like the thought of getting a bit of scratch for doing what I enjoy and put the most time and effort into. I'm lucky enough to have a pretty decent job and I'm allotted 2 weeks of paid vacation every year, plus the CFO allowing more unpaid time off if I need it for touring in the future.

It's amazing that with so many financial issues that underground bands go through that they can even afford the gear they have, or even the upkeep of their gear.

In the end, the music should come first. You should be in it for the love of the music and performance and you do what you must to maintain your ability to do so.

I'm sure I'll have some stories to share over the years as my band just started gigging a few months ago, but there's no chance in Hell that we'll snatch the first label offer that comes our way...


----------



## scottro202

Man, this thread is a bit depressing, in a useful way 

But this makes me glad I've set myself up for several backup plans to music. When I go off to college in 2 years, I want to double major in journalism, and music EDUCATION. That way, I have quite a few options for my career. Musician, music teacher, journalist... (My literature teacher was a journalism major as well)


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/1375365-post107.html

I was just going through my first post here... and looks like many things have changed. 4arm are now gigging, and getting a few good offers too. 

However, financial problems are still there. Of course I still need to justify working full time and teaching guitar to students. There's no two ways around it. This band in particular is very bank busting, we spent $200 each just for a down payment on a music video we filmed on Valentines Day (additional $200 for equipment, renting backline and catering, plus renting a truck+petrol just to get our gear around). Plus now we have to start forking out more cash for merch, especially now that our second album release is looming closer. Yes we're still doing Metallica tribute shows, but they pay very well so it's a means to an end and funds our original, while still not enough, it's still something.


----------



## RG7620BK

Blame the record companies. They turn musicians into slaves.


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

RG7620BK said:


> Blame the record companies. They turn musicians into slaves.



Personally, i dont agree so much. The record companies made tons of "metal" bands all kinds of cash since the 80's

I'd point the blame at a bad economy leaving with people with little extra money and music isnt a necesity to live. So concerts and cd's are one of the first things people can cut out.


----------



## Janiator

I don't think all labels kill music. Yes, there are some really bad labels, but a lot of it has to do with people not understanding the buisness side of music.
I don't have any personal experience because of my age, but that's what I've gatherd.


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

This is good to know considering I'm a member of 2 bands that will probably so some hardcore touring in the next few years.


----------



## Snailteaser

This is indeed depressing. Is by the way Nevermore and the other bands you mentioned in this thread suppose to be "small/medium/big" bands? Somebody wrote these bands earn up to $100K a year... is this per person or the entire band?


----------



## Rick

A nice little piece I just found from one of the guitarists of Oh, Sleeper. 

_ &#8220;Hey Everyone,

For the past 5 years my brothers in Oh, Sleeper and myself have sacrificed our lives, our time, relationships, birthdays, holidays, health(haha) to travel around and play shows for our fans. Not to say that isn&#8217;t been a fun ride!

I would just like to bring a few things to our fans attention:

I would like to show you guys an average day in finances for a &#8220;mid-level&#8221; band like us. Im going to breakdown the average monetary in and outs of a day on tour.
On tour bands have two ways to make money. Guaranties, and Merchandise.

On tour bands have big bills. The biggest are: Managers, Booking agent, Merch Rates, Merch bills, Food, and of course.. the Gas bill.
Our last headliner tour was an east coast run with 3 other bands. The average guaranty per band was 300$ per band, and around 300$ in merch. This was the average for all 4 bands, for the entire tour.

So we have a 600$ gross income per night. Now lets break this down.
Merchandise is bough, printed, and shipped on the bands dollar. We print most our shirts on American Apparel. They obviously offer the best fitting shirts, and kids are smart about looking good now days. They wont sell unless you have slim fitting, soft shirts. The demand for better quality shirts from bands is higher in last few years.

American Apparel shirts are very pricey to print. usually $7.50 a shirt. More for v-necks, 3/4 sleeve shirts, etc.
We sell our shirts for 15$ at our shows, UNLESS we are on tour with a headliner that demands we price match them.
SO $15 &#8211; $7.50 = $7.50. So half is profit. So out of the 300$ the band made in merch, they owe 150$ to the printer.

BUT HOLD ON! Merch rates!
Most nice venues have merch rates, we have seen them be as high 32% gross. Usually they are 25%.
&#8212;&#8211;
So out of the initial $300 in merch the band made. 25% goes to venue. Thats $75.
$300(gross) &#8211; $150(merch cost) &#8211; $75(merch venue rate) = $75 (Net profit for the band.)
BUT the breakdown doesnt stop there. If the band has a manager, he takes 15% of Net profit of merch.
SO MERCH TOTAL PER NIGHT:
$75 X .15 = $11.25
$75 &#8211; $11.15 = $63.75( TOTAL Net profit in merch for the band.)
&#8212;&#8212;&#8211;
Guaranties:
The breakdown in deductions from this money is: 15% to Manager, 10% to booking agent.
$300(gross guaranty) &#8211; $45(managers cut 15%) &#8211; $30(booking agents cut 10%) = $225
Average Gas bill is around $150. some days way better some days way worse. We have done 17 hour drives..leaveing show and showing up to next one right before we play&#8230;many times. Those are a bit more expensive. Most west coast tours we do the average gas bill is around 200-250&#8230;but ill use 150 for this example.
$225(guaranty after manage and agent deductions) &#8211; $150(gas bill) = $75

We have 6 people on tour, our 5 Guys, and our merch guy &#8220;The maze&#8221;. We give everyone $10 bucks a day to eat on. (This isnt enough when your 6 4 and 200lbs like micah and i by the way)
6 people x $10 = $60
$75 &#8211; $60 = $15
$15 Total net profit in Guaranties.
&#8212;&#8212;-
$63.75(Net merch) + $15(Net guaranty) =
$78.75 for the band for the night. out of $600 gross.
if you divide that 6 ways its $13.12 a day per band member.
&#8212;&#8212;-
This doesnt include hotel costs. which are usually 50-60 bucks. Most bands dont get hotels or shower to save money to pay for phone bills.
This does not include Tires/Van payment/Oil changes/Van upkeep registration bla bla/Trailer tires/Gear/etc.
This doesnt include taxes. This doesnt include ROAD TOLLS. Which in the northeast can add up to 20-40bucks a day.

Thanks for reading.

MERCH RATES HAVE TO GO.
STOP STEALING OUR CDs PLEASE.
WE DONT MAKE MONEY WHEN YOU BUY IT FROM STORES, COME TO SHOWS.
WE DONT MAKE MONEY FROM LABELS.
BUY MERCH FROM US AT SHOWS IF YOU LIKE WHAT WERE DOING.&#8221;_


----------



## jkspawn

Rick said:


> A nice little piece I just found from one of the guitarists of Oh, Sleeper.
> 
> _ Hey Everyone,
> 
> For the past 5 years my brothers in Oh, Sleeper and myself have sacrificed our lives, our time, relationships, birthdays, holidays, health(haha) to travel around and play shows for our fans. Not to say that isnt been a fun ride!
> 
> I would just like to bring a few things to our fans attention:
> 
> I would like to show you guys an average day in finances for a mid-level band like us. Im going to breakdown the average monetary in and outs of a day on tour.
> On tour bands have two ways to make money. Guaranties, and Merchandise.
> 
> On tour bands have big bills. The biggest are: Managers, Booking agent, Merch Rates, Merch bills, Food, and of course.. the Gas bill.
> Our last headliner tour was an east coast run with 3 other bands. The average guaranty per band was 300$ per band, and around 300$ in merch. This was the average for all 4 bands, for the entire tour.
> 
> So we have a 600$ gross income per night. Now lets break this down.
> Merchandise is bough, printed, and shipped on the bands dollar. We print most our shirts on American Apparel. They obviously offer the best fitting shirts, and kids are smart about looking good now days. They wont sell unless you have slim fitting, soft shirts. The demand for better quality shirts from bands is higher in last few years.
> 
> American Apparel shirts are very pricey to print. usually $7.50 a shirt. More for v-necks, 3/4 sleeve shirts, etc.
> We sell our shirts for 15$ at our shows, UNLESS we are on tour with a headliner that demands we price match them.
> SO $15  $7.50 = $7.50. So half is profit. So out of the 300$ the band made in merch, they owe 150$ to the printer.
> 
> BUT HOLD ON! Merch rates!
> Most nice venues have merch rates, we have seen them be as high 32% gross. Usually they are 25%.
> 
> So out of the initial $300 in merch the band made. 25% goes to venue. Thats $75.
> $300(gross)  $150(merch cost)  $75(merch venue rate) = $75 (Net profit for the band.)
> BUT the breakdown doesnt stop there. If the band has a manager, he takes 15% of Net profit of merch.
> SO MERCH TOTAL PER NIGHT:
> $75 X .15 = $11.25
> $75  $11.15 = $63.75( TOTAL Net profit in merch for the band.)
> 
> Guaranties:
> The breakdown in deductions from this money is: 15% to Manager, 10% to booking agent.
> $300(gross guaranty)  $45(managers cut 15%)  $30(booking agents cut 10%) = $225
> Average Gas bill is around $150. some days way better some days way worse. We have done 17 hour drives..leaveing show and showing up to next one right before we playmany times. Those are a bit more expensive. Most west coast tours we do the average gas bill is around 200-250but ill use 150 for this example.
> $225(guaranty after manage and agent deductions)  $150(gas bill) = $75
> 
> We have 6 people on tour, our 5 Guys, and our merch guy The maze. We give everyone $10 bucks a day to eat on. (This isnt enough when your 6 4 and 200lbs like micah and i by the way)
> 6 people x $10 = $60
> $75  $60 = $15
> $15 Total net profit in Guaranties.
> -
> $63.75(Net merch) + $15(Net guaranty) =
> $78.75 for the band for the night. out of $600 gross.
> if you divide that 6 ways its $13.12 a day per band member.
> -
> This doesnt include hotel costs. which are usually 50-60 bucks. Most bands dont get hotels or shower to save money to pay for phone bills.
> This does not include Tires/Van payment/Oil changes/Van upkeep registration bla bla/Trailer tires/Gear/etc.
> This doesnt include taxes. This doesnt include ROAD TOLLS. Which in the northeast can add up to 20-40bucks a day.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> MERCH RATES HAVE TO GO.
> STOP STEALING OUR CDs PLEASE.
> WE DONT MAKE MONEY WHEN YOU BUY IT FROM STORES, COME TO SHOWS.
> WE DONT MAKE MONEY FROM LABELS.
> BUY MERCH FROM US AT SHOWS IF YOU LIKE WHAT WERE DOING._




 My prays go out to you guys.


----------



## s_k_mullins

Thanks for sharing that Rick. I guess it shows their level of devotion and commitment to music, willing to sacrifice so much and live poorly.


----------



## Zugster

The problem is self sacrifice can only last so long before people burn out, give up, etc. It's not sustainable in the long run. A better business model is needed. A better way is needed.


----------



## jkspawn

Zugster said:


> The problem is self sacrifice can only last so long before people burn out, give up, etc. It's not sustainable in the long run. A better business model is needed. A better way is needed.




Needed, a better way is. Ummm.


----------



## onpalehorse

I believe a good label will take care of their bands as much as possible.
Not necessarily guaranteeing that they will make money, but just seeing to it that they aren't falling apart as a band on the road which IMO is the truest form of showing dedication and love for performing. To me playing live is the greatest thing ever and to anyone who agrees with me money and food is a small price to pay for being able to do what you love and have other people loving you for it.

just my take on it


----------



## Daggorath

Rick said:


> A nice little piece I just found from one of the guitarists of Oh, Sleeper.
> 
> _ Hey Everyone,
> 
> For the past 5 years my brothers in Oh, Sleeper and myself have sacrificed our lives, our time, relationships, birthdays, holidays, health(haha) to travel around and play shows for our fans. Not to say that isnt been a fun ride!
> 
> I would just like to bring a few things to our fans attention:
> 
> I would like to show you guys an average day in finances for a mid-level band like us. Im going to breakdown the average monetary in and outs of a day on tour.
> On tour bands have two ways to make money. Guaranties, and Merchandise.
> 
> On tour bands have big bills. The biggest are: Managers, Booking agent, Merch Rates, Merch bills, Food, and of course.. the Gas bill.
> Our last headliner tour was an east coast run with 3 other bands. The average guaranty per band was 300$ per band, and around 300$ in merch. This was the average for all 4 bands, for the entire tour.
> 
> So we have a 600$ gross income per night. Now lets break this down.
> Merchandise is bough, printed, and shipped on the bands dollar. We print most our shirts on American Apparel. They obviously offer the best fitting shirts, and kids are smart about looking good now days. They wont sell unless you have slim fitting, soft shirts. The demand for better quality shirts from bands is higher in last few years.
> 
> American Apparel shirts are very pricey to print. usually $7.50 a shirt. More for v-necks, 3/4 sleeve shirts, etc.
> We sell our shirts for 15$ at our shows, UNLESS we are on tour with a headliner that demands we price match them.
> SO $15  $7.50 = $7.50. So half is profit. So out of the 300$ the band made in merch, they owe 150$ to the printer.
> 
> BUT HOLD ON! Merch rates!
> Most nice venues have merch rates, we have seen them be as high 32% gross. Usually they are 25%.
> 
> So out of the initial $300 in merch the band made. 25% goes to venue. Thats $75.
> $300(gross)  $150(merch cost)  $75(merch venue rate) = $75 (Net profit for the band.)
> BUT the breakdown doesnt stop there. If the band has a manager, he takes 15% of Net profit of merch.
> SO MERCH TOTAL PER NIGHT:
> $75 X .15 = $11.25
> $75  $11.15 = $63.75( TOTAL Net profit in merch for the band.)
> 
> Guaranties:
> The breakdown in deductions from this money is: 15% to Manager, 10% to booking agent.
> $300(gross guaranty)  $45(managers cut 15%)  $30(booking agents cut 10%) = $225
> Average Gas bill is around $150. some days way better some days way worse. We have done 17 hour drives..leaveing show and showing up to next one right before we playmany times. Those are a bit more expensive. Most west coast tours we do the average gas bill is around 200-250but ill use 150 for this example.
> $225(guaranty after manage and agent deductions)  $150(gas bill) = $75
> 
> We have 6 people on tour, our 5 Guys, and our merch guy The maze. We give everyone $10 bucks a day to eat on. (This isnt enough when your 6 4 and 200lbs like micah and i by the way)
> 6 people x $10 = $60
> $75  $60 = $15
> $15 Total net profit in Guaranties.
> -
> $63.75(Net merch) + $15(Net guaranty) =
> $78.75 for the band for the night. out of $600 gross.
> if you divide that 6 ways its $13.12 a day per band member.
> -
> This doesnt include hotel costs. which are usually 50-60 bucks. Most bands dont get hotels or shower to save money to pay for phone bills.
> This does not include Tires/Van payment/Oil changes/Van upkeep registration bla bla/Trailer tires/Gear/etc.
> This doesnt include taxes. This doesnt include ROAD TOLLS. Which in the northeast can add up to 20-40bucks a day.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> MERCH RATES HAVE TO GO.
> STOP STEALING OUR CDs PLEASE.
> WE DONT MAKE MONEY WHEN YOU BUY IT FROM STORES, COME TO SHOWS.
> WE DONT MAKE MONEY FROM LABELS.
> BUY MERCH FROM US AT SHOWS IF YOU LIKE WHAT WERE DOING._




Cheers for this. I knew it was tough to even make money as a small-mid sized band, but this is really eye opening. Is there anyway of making sure your money gets to the musicians? It's sickening.


----------



## Cancer

Hey guys, can someone explains what this means exactly:

The *average guaranty per band* was 300$ per band, _*and around 300$ in merch*_.

Does this mean that the bands get 300$ REGARDLESS of how much merch they sell, or something else? I've read this article in a bunch of places online, and this is the part that always makes me go "Wait....what????"


----------



## TravisMontgomery

Daggorath: Everything that Rick posted is 100% true, and every small-mid sized band goes through pretty much exactly what is there. The only way to make sure that your money gets to the musicians is to go to the shows and buy the merch instead of buying stuff online or at stores.



Cancer said:


> Hey guys, can someone explains what this means exactly:
> 
> The *average guaranty per band* was 300$ per band, _*and around 300$ in merch*_.
> 
> Does this mean that the bands get 300$ REGARDLESS of how much merch they sell, or something else? I've read this article in a bunch of places online, and this is the part that always makes me go "Wait....what????"



Bands are given contracts for every show on the tour. The guarantee is what your contract says you will make at each show. So, if your contract says you will make $300 that show, then you will get paid that much. As long as you show up and play the show like it says on the contract, then you make the $300.


----------



## Rick

I usually buy shirts at shows, the only exception is a CD release "pack" of some kind.


----------



## S-O

I try to buy merch as much as I can, sometimes the prices are a bit extreme. Hope things get a bit more fair!


----------



## eventhetrees

S-O said:


> I try to buy merch as much as I can, sometimes the prices are a bit extreme. Hope things get a bit more fair!



When was the last time you went to a real nice restaurant? Like a nice sit down meal for a date or family gathering?

The bill can add up to a lot. Cause all the workers there need to make money to make ends meet too.

What's the difference when a band asks for a little more money for their merch? They need to make ends meet to, hell they need to fucking eat! 

I don't see anything wrong with bands asking for 20 dollars a shirt or even 40 a hoodie. What's the difference when you buy it from a regular store and you're buying a stripped hoodie from old navy that's costing you 40 dollars?

I actually don't like it too much when bands sell stuff for ridiculously cheap. Obviously a part of you is like FUCK YEAH cheap shirts, but then you step back and are like, whoa. I'm only giving them 8 bucks for this shirt and according to the math Shanes put out there for us, they're literally just making over a dollar from it?


----------



## Homebrew1709

Stay in school, kids


----------



## Evil7

All metal bands shoud have a "FEED US, WE ARE HUNGRY" tip jug.

Fuck your waitress, tip your musicians!


----------



## boni

Homebrew1709 said:


> Stay in school, kids



this ^

this is a necessity for all musicians. go to school.


----------



## Cancer

Cancer said:


> Hey guys, can someone explains what this means exactly:
> 
> The *average guaranty per band* was 300$ per band, _*and around 300$ in merch*_.
> 
> Does this mean that the bands get 300$ REGARDLESS of how much merch they sell, or something else? I've read this article in a bunch of places online, and this is the part that always makes me go "Wait....what????"



I got that, was confuses is the part about guaranty and merch in the same sentence, it almost sounds like it says "hey man, your band going play here, and no matter what we'll give you 300$, also we have a merch area too, and no matter how merch you sell, we're going to give you 300$...regardless of whether you under, at, or over 300$ in merch". Is anyone else reading this the same way?


----------



## Homebrew1709

Cancer said:


> I got that, was confuses is the part about guaranty and merch in the same sentence, it almost sounds like it says "hey man, your band going play here, and no matter what we'll give you 300$, also we have a merch area too, and no matter how merch you sell, we're going to give you 300$...regardless of whether you under, at, or over 300$ in merch". Is anyone else reading this the same way?



I read that as: $300 in your pocket for playing, no questions asked. PLUS an _estimated_ $300 in merch sales, which will obviously vary...


----------



## Evil7

Homebrew1709 said:


> I read that as: $300 in your pocket for playing, no questions asked. PLUS an _estimated_ $300 in merch sales, which will obviously vary...


----------



## cryogen

Homebrew1709 said:


> I read that as: $300 in your pocket for playing, no questions asked. PLUS an _estimated_ $300 in merch sales, which will obviously vary...



That's correct. You make your guaranty as long as you hold up your end of the deal and play the show. Merch sales are separate, which the venue may take a cut of, but aren't part of the guaranty (typically). 

Good luck getting your guaranty every night though.. You may end up fighting somebody to get it!


----------



## skua

Just yesterday I stumbled across this web site :
Welcome to the Dream - The Rude Awakening of Rock Stardom: Home

It's a site for a documentary film project by Rat Skates (ex Overkill) that aims to educate new musicians (and people in general) about the state of the music industry and what type of expectations (money, success) they should have for their careers. The idea seems to be to inform by their own example, in the hopes that new musicians don't have to repeat the same mistakes made by those that have gone before them.

Watch the TEASER video and the DIRECTORS CHAIR... already it seems to be pretty enlightening and sobering stuff. I hope that Rat is able to complete this film.

Support the acts you like by seeing them live and buy merch when you can!

\m/_
skua


----------



## Rev2010

This is surely strange. Only $300 guaranteed for a mid-level band payout for the show?? My electronic project is waaaaay deep underground in popularity even though we've been played in clubs and on small radio stations throughout the world. Our very first show before all that gave us $165 for the people that said they were there to see us while paying the entrance fee. It was small but we got $5 a head and we were nobodies with an even smaller fanbase at that time. $300 seems a really paltry performance fee especially for a mid-level band 

That aside... sales are freaking slim these days. Even with my small underground electronic project I've seen people sharing my first EP (that's on all digital stores for sale) on all these Russian sites and filesharing sites. I actually used the "Report Abuse" feature on one site and they promptly took my album down.

I'll just add one thing... I totally agree with how bad it is for bands these days and how difficult it is. I'm not by any means trying to play devil's advocate but I personally feel bands need to compensate in some way to make their profit margins more realistic. That band quoted said they only use "American Apparel" tees since they are quality. Why not find another quality brand that is competitively selling for far less? Why not hit EBay and catch a deal with someone offering to offload a ton of AA tee's at a much discounted price?

Problem is a lot of us all go through normal retail channels and that is just too costly these days. We as bands making such little profits need to make more effort to increase the profit margin by finding better deals as well. It's sad but we have to take play business man to maximize our return.

Again, I wholeheartedly agree with how much we are fucked these days. I'm not disagreeing at all. I'm merely saying there are options out there for those willing to invest a little extra time to greatly improve one's profit margin.


Rev.


----------



## eventhetrees

skua said:


> Just yesterday I stumbled across this web site :
> Welcome to the Dream - The Rude Awakening of Rock Stardom: Home
> 
> It's a site for a documentary film project by Rat Skates (ex Overkill) that aims to educate new musicians (and people in general) about the state of the music industry and what type of expectations (money, success) they should have for their careers. The idea seems to be to inform by their own example, in the hopes that new musicians don't have to repeat the same mistakes made by those that have gone before them.
> 
> Watch the TEASER video and the DIRECTORS CHAIR... already it seems to be pretty enlightening and sobering stuff. I hope that Rat is able to complete this film.
> 
> Support the acts you like by seeing them live and buy merch when you can!
> 
> \m/_
> skua


----------



## boni

skua said:


> Just yesterday I stumbled across this web site :
> Welcome to the Dream - The Rude Awakening of Rock Stardom: Home
> 
> It's a site for a documentary film project by Rat Skates (ex Overkill) that aims to educate new musicians (and people in general) about the state of the music industry and what type of expectations (money, success) they should have for their careers. The idea seems to be to inform by their own example, in the hopes that new musicians don't have to repeat the same mistakes made by those that have gone before them.
> 
> Watch the TEASER video and the DIRECTORS CHAIR... already it seems to be pretty enlightening and sobering stuff. I hope that Rat is able to complete this film.
> 
> Support the acts you like by seeing them live and buy merch when you can!
> 
> \m/_
> skua




amazing, a new view on arts and education


----------



## eventhetrees

^ was that sarcasm?


----------



## Rev2010

Just watched "The Dream" vids just now. I've always known how bad it is with the industry, I do a ton of reading. But wow, sure was pretty powerful, and disturbing, stuff. Nicely shot.


Rev.


----------



## jkspawn

It amazes me how so many bands/musicians struggle these days, yet sports athletes get million dollar salaries.

I always wondered how do players in the sports industry get these ridiculous salaries, yet in the music industry, everyone livin' on end meat. Both professions fall under the "Entertainment Industry": umbrella, no? 

Maybe what the music industry needs is advertising campaigns, ala NASCAR, sports teams, shit like that?


----------



## eventhetrees

jkspawn said:


> Maybe what the music industry needs is advertising campaigns, ala NASCAR, sports teams, shit like that?


----------



## cryogen

Rev2010 said:


> This is surely strange. Only $300 guaranteed for a mid-level band payout for the show?? My electronic project is waaaaay deep underground in popularity even though we've been played in clubs and on small radio stations throughout the world. Our very first show before all that gave us $165 for the people that said they were there to see us while paying the entrance fee.



I'm guessing that was because a lot of your friends and family showed up. Not to downplay what you made, but playing a show at a local venue vs a show out on the road are two entirely separate things.

The first couple shows you play locally are usually great because you get all of your friends to come out and promoters love you because you make them lots of money. After that it gets harder and harder as you have to create an actual fanbase once your friends stop showing up. And trust me, that happens quickly.

$300 is actually a decent guarantee for a metal band nowadays, unless you're Killswitch. We've only gotten a $300 guarantee once and we've done around half a dozen tours. If we play our home town we stand to make a lot more and put in much less effort setting up the show, however, you can't play your hometown 5 nights out of the week..


----------



## S-O

eventhetrees said:


> When was the last time you went to a real nice restaurant? Like a nice sit down meal for a date or family gathering?
> 
> The bill can add up to a lot. Cause all the workers there need to make money to make ends meet too.
> 
> What's the difference when a band asks for a little more money for their merch? They need to make ends meet to, hell they need to fucking eat!
> 
> I don't see anything wrong with bands asking for 20 dollars a shirt or even 40 a hoodie. What's the difference when you buy it from a regular store and you're buying a stripped hoodie from old navy that's costing you 40 dollars?
> 
> I actually don't like it too much when bands sell stuff for ridiculously cheap. Obviously a part of you is like FUCK YEAH cheap shirts, but then you step back and are like, whoa. I'm only giving them 8 bucks for this shirt and according to the math Shanes put out there for us, they're literally just making over a dollar from it?



I don't eat out in fancy places that much, being a college student/musician/GAS addict.

But the analogy is pretty fair, especially if you extrapolate it to include workers (bands) , management (Producers, managers), and corporation (Labels and the like).

But, then it comes to: Are the upper echelon of this system pulling it's fair share of the weight? Or is there a lot of exploitation.

I think there are some great labels out there, mostly on the smaller/independent side, like Seasons of Mist. There seems to be a lot more freedom in these type of situations, but, I have no inside experience.

Also, I have noticed a lot of the big labels are doing more and more distribution work.

I have a feeling the music economy parallels other economies, with a low/middle/high class.

I hope!

Also, $20 for a shirt isn't too hateful, I have seen $30 and up...


----------



## deathsguitarist

I make negative amounts of money in a year from being in a band


----------



## Homebrew1709

jkspawn said:


> It amazes me how so many bands/musicians struggle these days, yet sports athletes get million dollar salaries.
> 
> I always wondered how do players in the sports industry get these ridiculous salaries, yet in the music industry, everyone livin' on end meat. Both professions fall under the "Entertainment Industry": umbrella, no?
> 
> Maybe what the music industry needs is advertising campaigns, ala NASCAR, sports teams, shit like that?



Not everyone in the music industry is "livin' on end meat". Maybe in the metal community, but not necessarily industry-wide. And not every pro athlete makes a million dollar salary. The amount of money that flows through professional sports in America (particularly the NFL) makes the music industry look like child's play. It all boils down to how much value you bring to the person/company that signs your check. High profile athletes put butts in the stadium seats and make people tune in to watch them on TV - both of which create lots of revenue for the team/owner. Thus they are worth a lot of money. How many records does a relatively popular metal band sell in a year? 100,000 albums? Most bands that are talked about around this forum will never even come close to that. In the business world sports > music by a landslide.


----------



## matt397

Evil7 said:


> Fuck your waitress, tip your musicians!


 Your awesome  Im putting this in my sig


----------



## hiflyer

jkspawn said:


> It amazes me how so many bands/musicians struggle these days, yet sports athletes get million dollar salaries.
> 
> I always wondered how do players in the sports industry get these ridiculous salaries, yet in the music industry, everyone livin' on end meat. Both professions fall under the "Entertainment Industry": umbrella, no?
> 
> Maybe what the music industry needs is advertising campaigns, ala NASCAR, sports teams, shit like that?


 Sports and the music industry seem very similar to me....Millions of people
are involved in both, but only Thousands of people are making Money$$$ at either. Only the top, or the lucky score big time..... a very low %
I mean theres tons of athletes that dont dont make a positive cash flow.
Playing music/ Band is a sport or hobby like Golf or fishing... takes cash.


----------



## Andromalia

Add to that, that playing metal is mostly akin to trying to make money in, say, fencing. People know fencing exists, it's broadcasted at the olympics, but it's poor for showing advertisings, so, no money and no TV time except 2 weeks every 4 years.
Same goes for merch: I'm all for buying all the merch I can at a show, but I'd like those merch to be enjoyable.
Tshirts with intestines, gore and unreadable fonts are a bit passé for me. ^^
So if there's one advice...get a fucking designer to design your merch. 
And a REAL drawer, not a pal's rendition of Cthuhlu in crayons.
And make tshirts other than black. Black sucks in summer festivals anyway.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to spend a fortune for maiden merch at wacken this year. Because it's usually visually appealing.
But I likely won't buy a black tshirt with written "God vomited your mother's entrails when you were born" with a lousy font. 

Buying merch for support is great. It's even better if the merch is worth it.


----------



## Arterial

This thread is indeed, depressing


----------



## skua

As for buying merchandise at shows... I know the artists want us to buy at shows to help maximize their profits... however, the bands have to keep in mind that a T-SHIRT needs to be of decent quality at a decent price. I know they need the money and I know I want the shirt... but I'm sorry, $30, $40, $50 for a T-Shirt is outrageous. Bring the price into the reasonable range and I'll bet you move more shirts. Also consider some larger sizes... seen lots of metal-doods who would want 2X or 3X if they would carry them... just a thought. Remember those things usually shrink up on the first wash! 

\m/_
skua


----------



## Rev2010

cryogen said:


> I'm guessing that was because a lot of your friends and family showed up. Not to downplay what you made, but playing a show at a local venue vs a show out on the road are two entirely separate things



Actually no, it wasn't friends at all. The three friends we brought plus the 2 girlfriends (now my wife) all came in with us complimentary. Not a single friend of mine came in paid. Sounds pathetic but I have very very few friends these days.

However, the week or two before the show we did hang out in front of the club one night and hand out fliers for the show. I knew the people running the place so they were ok with me doing that. Maybe that was what helped most.


Rev.


----------



## cryogen

skua said:


> As for buying merchandise at shows... I know the artists want us to buy at shows to help maximize their profits... however, the bands have to keep in mind that a T-SHIRT needs to be of decent quality at a decent price. I know they need the money and I know I want the shirt... but I'm sorry, $30, $40, $50 for a T-Shirt is outrageous. Bring the price into the reasonable range and I'll bet you move more shirts. Also consider some larger sizes... seen lots of metal-doods who would want 2X or 3X if they would carry them... just a thought. Remember those things usually shrink up on the first wash!
> 
> \m/_
> skua



We always sell out of 2X and 3X sizes way before anything else, so I know what you mean! You'd think we'd order more of those sizes on our next run but we never do. haha


----------



## cryogen

Rev2010 said:


> Actually no, it wasn't friends at all. The three friends we brought plus the 2 girlfriends (now my wife) all came in with us complimentary. Not a single friend of mine came in paid. Sounds pathetic but I have very very few friends these days.
> 
> However, the week or two before the show we did hang out in front of the club one night and hand out fliers for the show. I knew the people running the place so they were ok with me doing that. Maybe that was what helped most.
> 
> 
> Rev.



That's awesome that you pulled in that amount of people by flyering. I hope you didn't think I was implying anything by what I wrote, it's just very common for a first show to be made up mostly of friends and family.


----------



## Acatalepsy

deathsguitarist said:


> I make negative amounts of money in a year from being in a band


----------



## DVRP

Arterial said:


> This thread is indeed, depressing


Meh, it seems that way, but as long as your doing what you love who gives a shit. I know at some point you do need to realize you problem won't make a living playing music. But ill be damned if I'll let that put a damper on me. Alot of people don't understand that almost all of a musicians money comes from other sources like teaching or even a "day job". But yeah, the way I see it.

If its what you love, do it. Cant let anything put a damper on what you love.


----------



## Evil7

Evil7 said:


> Fuck your waitress, tip your musicians!


 


matt397 said:


> Your awesome  Im putting this in my sig


 
Thank you! Im honored...


----------



## silentrage

I know some people who study audio engineering and try to work in this field while writing their songs and playing with their bands, sure you have to work on a lot of pop or techno or hip hop stuff to feed yourself but it probably beats washing dishes?


----------



## MistaMarko

This all comes down to how much you want to put into it, will be what you get out of it. It's the same principle as starting any business, whether a lemonade stand, or McDonalds. I read a business model report on Ray Kroc when he started McDonalds, and it took him quite awhile for it to get going, and he lost money for awhile. Given food and entertainment are two completely unrelated topics, but you get the point. I guess you'll sacrifice a lot of time and in the end it'll finally come together.

Here's an interesting read for everyone here. This blog was posted by one of the members of Oh, Sleeper (decently sized metalcore band, probably about the size of BTBAM, Periphery, or something like that):

_http://www.metalinjection.net/its-just-business/bands-money-touring
_


----------



## Rick

MistaMarko said:


> This all comes down to how much you want to put into it, will be what you get out of it. It's the same principle as starting any business, whether a lemonade stand, or McDonalds. I read a business model report on Ray Kroc when he started McDonalds, and it took him quite awhile for it to get going, and he lost money for awhile. Given food and entertainment are two completely unrelated topics, but you get the point. I guess you'll sacrifice a lot of time and in the end it'll finally come together.
> 
> Here's an interesting read for everyone here. This blog was posted by one of the members of Oh, Sleeper (decently sized metalcore band, probably about the size of BTBAM, Periphery, or something like that):
> 
> _It Seems Bands Don&#039;t Make Money Off Touring Either | It's Just Business | Metal Injection
> _



I posted that on Wednesday.  

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2078096-post232.html


----------



## onpalehorse

this thread is FIYA


----------



## Cadavuh

Rick said:


> A nice little piece I just found from one of the guitarists of Oh, Sleeper.
> 
> _ Hey Everyone,
> 
> For the past 5 years my brothers in Oh, Sleeper and myself have sacrificed our lives, our time, relationships, birthdays, holidays, health(haha) to travel around and play shows for our fans. Not to say that isnt been a fun ride!
> 
> I would just like to bring a few things to our fans attention:
> 
> I would like to show you guys an average day in finances for a mid-level band like us. Im going to breakdown the average monetary in and outs of a day on tour.
> On tour bands have two ways to make money. Guaranties, and Merchandise.
> 
> On tour bands have big bills. The biggest are: Managers, Booking agent, Merch Rates, Merch bills, Food, and of course.. the Gas bill.
> Our last headliner tour was an east coast run with 3 other bands. The average guaranty per band was 300$ per band, and around 300$ in merch. This was the average for all 4 bands, for the entire tour.
> 
> So we have a 600$ gross income per night. Now lets break this down.
> Merchandise is bough, printed, and shipped on the bands dollar. We print most our shirts on American Apparel. They obviously offer the best fitting shirts, and kids are smart about looking good now days. They wont sell unless you have slim fitting, soft shirts. The demand for better quality shirts from bands is higher in last few years.
> 
> American Apparel shirts are very pricey to print. usually $7.50 a shirt. More for v-necks, 3/4 sleeve shirts, etc.
> We sell our shirts for 15$ at our shows, UNLESS we are on tour with a headliner that demands we price match them.
> SO $15  $7.50 = $7.50. So half is profit. So out of the 300$ the band made in merch, they owe 150$ to the printer.
> 
> BUT HOLD ON! Merch rates!
> Most nice venues have merch rates, we have seen them be as high 32% gross. Usually they are 25%.
> 
> So out of the initial $300 in merch the band made. 25% goes to venue. Thats $75.
> $300(gross)  $150(merch cost)  $75(merch venue rate) = $75 (Net profit for the band.)
> BUT the breakdown doesnt stop there. If the band has a manager, he takes 15% of Net profit of merch.
> SO MERCH TOTAL PER NIGHT:
> $75 X .15 = $11.25
> $75  $11.15 = $63.75( TOTAL Net profit in merch for the band.)
> 
> Guaranties:
> The breakdown in deductions from this money is: 15% to Manager, 10% to booking agent.
> $300(gross guaranty)  $45(managers cut 15%)  $30(booking agents cut 10%) = $225
> Average Gas bill is around $150. some days way better some days way worse. We have done 17 hour drives..leaveing show and showing up to next one right before we playmany times. Those are a bit more expensive. Most west coast tours we do the average gas bill is around 200-250but ill use 150 for this example.
> $225(guaranty after manage and agent deductions)  $150(gas bill) = $75
> 
> We have 6 people on tour, our 5 Guys, and our merch guy The maze. We give everyone $10 bucks a day to eat on. (This isnt enough when your 6 4 and 200lbs like micah and i by the way)
> 6 people x $10 = $60
> $75  $60 = $15
> $15 Total net profit in Guaranties.
> -
> $63.75(Net merch) + $15(Net guaranty) =
> $78.75 for the band for the night. out of $600 gross.
> if you divide that 6 ways its $13.12 a day per band member.
> -
> This doesnt include hotel costs. which are usually 50-60 bucks. Most bands dont get hotels or shower to save money to pay for phone bills.
> This does not include Tires/Van payment/Oil changes/Van upkeep registration bla bla/Trailer tires/Gear/etc.
> This doesnt include taxes. This doesnt include ROAD TOLLS. Which in the northeast can add up to 20-40bucks a day.
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> MERCH RATES HAVE TO GO.
> STOP STEALING OUR CDs PLEASE.
> WE DONT MAKE MONEY WHEN YOU BUY IT FROM STORES, COME TO SHOWS.
> WE DONT MAKE MONEY FROM LABELS.
> BUY MERCH FROM US AT SHOWS IF YOU LIKE WHAT WERE DOING._




In my opinion this doesn't seem that bad. You just have to learn to live day by day and learn to be as minimalist as humanly possible. It seems to me these bands are living on a day to day income of roughly $25 per member. $15 income + $10 per diem. If budgeted correctly you could have everything you could possibly need on a day to day basis assuming you take the proper measures before going on tour.


----------



## shredfreak

Makes me happy i turned down bigger bands & being in a small underground doom metal band tbh.

By the end of the ride i'll have 75 in for the album costs and we'll be able to sell a presentable self recorded debut album for around 5$.

For my solo projects i'll probably make it free to download, fuck distribution really. And play the occasional gig backed up by my ipod with drumtracks on (who needs bandmembers anyways? )

All in all i consider music as a hobby (albeit expensive). If it became a full time job i doubt i'd have as much fun as i'm having now really


----------



## Rick

I can't believe that venues charge a "merch rate." How fucking stupid is that?


----------



## deathsguitarist

Has anyone mentioned that you have to pay a certain fee on the merch you are selling to cross into Canada or back into the U.S? I think its some kind of tax for selling your stuff in their country. Border crossing is ridiculous. They come up with different reasons to stop you and charge you money each time you cross. I couldn't tell you exactly what they charge for because it is different (and seems to be made up b.s) every time.


----------



## shredfreak

Rick said:


> I can't believe that venues charge a "merch rate." How fucking stupid is that?



As far as i know they don't do that in Belgium here. It does sound fucking stupid though i have to say.


----------



## Nightcrawler

The Problem With Music
by Steve Albini

Whenever I talk to a band who are about to sign with a major label, I always end up thinking of them in a particular context. I imagine a trench, about four feet wide and five feet deep, maybe sixty yards long, filled with runny, decaying shit. I imagine these people, some of them good friends, some of them barely acquaintances, at one end of this trench. I also imagine a faceless industry lackey at the other end holding a fountain pen and a contract waiting to be signed. Nobody can see what's printed on the contract. It's too far away, and besides, the shit stench is making everybody's eyes water. The lackey shouts to everybody that the first one to swim the trench gets to sign the contract. Everybody dives in the trench and they struggle furiously to get to the other end. Two people arrive simultaneously and begin wrestling furiously, clawing each other and dunking each other under the shit. Eventually, one of them capitulates, and there's only one contestant left. He reaches for the pen, but the Lackey says "Actually, I think you need a little more development. Swim again, please. Backstroke". And he does of course.

Every major label involved in the hunt for new bands now has on staff a high-profile point man, an "A & R" rep who can present a comfortable face to any prospective band. The initials stand for "Artist and Repertoire." because historically, the A & R staff would select artists to record music that they had also selected, out of an available pool of each. This is still the case, though not openly. These guys are universally young [about the same age as the bands being wooed], and nowadays they always have some obvious underground rock credibility flag they can wave.

Lyle Preslar, former guitarist for Minor Threat, is one of them. Terry Tolkin, former NY independent booking agent and assistant manager at Touch and Go is one of them. Al Smith, former soundman at CBGB is one of them. Mike Gitter, former editor of XXX fanzine and contributor to Rip, Kerrang and other lowbrow rags is one of them. Many of the annoying turds who used to staff college radio stations are in their ranks as well. There are several reasons A & R scouts are always young. The explanation usually copped-to is that the scout will be "hip to the current musical "scene." A more important reason is that the bands will intuitively trust someone they think is a peer, and who speaks fondly of the same formative rock and roll experiences. The A & R person is the first person to make contact with the band, and as such is the first person to promise them the moon. Who better to promise them the moon than an idealistic young turk who expects to be calling the shots in a few years, and who has had no previous experience with a big record company. Hell, he's as naive as the band he's duping. When he tells them no one will interfere in their creative process, he probably even believes it. When he sits down with the band for the first time, over a plate of angel hair pasta, he can tell them with all sincerity that when they sign with company X, they're really signing with him and he's on their side. Remember that great gig I saw you at in '85? Didn't we have a blast. By now all rock bands are wise enough to be suspicious of music industry scum. There is a pervasive caricature in popular culture of a portly, middle aged ex-hipster talking a mile-a-minute, using outdated jargon and calling everybody "baby." After meeting "their" A & R guy, the band will say to themselves and everyone else, "He's not like a record company guy at all! He's like one of us." And they will be right. That's one of the reasons he was hired.

These A & R guys are not allowed to write contracts. What they do is present the band with a letter of intent, or "deal memo," which loosely states some terms, and affirms that the band will sign with the label once a contract has been agreed on. The spookiest thing about this harmless sounding little memo, is that it is, for all legal purposes, a binding document. That is, once the band signs it, they are under obligation to conclude a deal with the label. If the label presents them with a contract that the band don't want to sign, all the label has to do is wait. There are a hundred other bands willing to sign the exact same contract, so the label is in a position of strength. These letters never have any terms of expiration, so the band remain bound by the deal memo until a contract is signed, no matter how long that takes. The band cannot sign to another laborer or even put out its own material unless they are released from their agreement, which never happens. Make no mistake about it: once a band has signed a letter of intent, they will either eventually sign a contract that suits the label or they will be destroyed.

One of my favorite bands was held hostage for the better part of two years by a slick young "He's not like a label guy at all," A & R rep, on the basis of such a deal memo. He had failed to come through on any of his promises [something he did with similar effect to another well-known band], and so the band wanted out. Another label expressed interest, but when the A & R man was asked to release the band, he said he would need money or points, or possibly both, before he would consider it. The new label was afraid the price would be too dear, and they said no thanks. On the cusp of making their signature album, an excellent band, humiliated, broke up from the stress and the many months of inactivity. There's this band. They're pretty ordinary, but they're also pretty good, so they've attracted some attention. They're signed to a moderate-sized "independent" label owned by a distribution company, and they have another two albums owed to the label. They're a little ambitious. They'd like to get signed by a major label so they can have some security you know, get some good equipment, tour in a proper tour bus -- nothing fancy, just a little reward for all the hard work. To that end, they got a manager. He knows some of the label guys, and he can shop their next project to all the right people. He takes his cut, sure, but it's only 15%, and if he can get them signed then it's money well spent. Anyways, it doesn't cost them anything if it doesn't work. 15% of nothing isn't much! One day an A & R scout calls them, says he's 'been following them for a while now, and when their manager mentioned them to him, it just "clicked." Would they like to meet with him about the possibility of working out a deal with his label? Wow. Big Break time. They meet the guy, and y'know what -- he's not what they expected from a label guy. He's young and dresses pretty much like the band does. He knows all their favorite bands. He's like one of them. He tells them he wants to go to bat for them, to try to get them everything they want. He says anything is possible with the right attitude.

They conclude the evening by taking home a copy of a deal memo they wrote out and signed on the spot. The A & R guy was full of great ideas, even talked about using a name producer. Butch Vig is out of the question-he wants 100 g's and three points, but they can get Don Fleming for $30,000 plus three points. Even that's a little steep, so maybe they'll go with that guy who used to be in David Letterman's band. He only wants three points. Or they can have just anybody record it (like Warton Tiers, maybe-- cost you 5 or 7 grand] and have Andy Wallace remix it for 4 grand a track plus 2 points. It was a lot to think about. Well, they like this guy and they trust him. Besides, they already signed the deal memo. He must have been serious about wanting them to sign. They break the news to their current label, and the label manager says he wants them to succeed, so they have his blessing. He will need to be compensated, of course, for the remaining albums left on their contract, but he'll work it out with the label himself.

Sub Pop made millions from selling off Nirvana, and Twin Tone hasn't done bad either: 50 grand for the Babes and 60 grand for the Poster Children-- without having to sell a single additional record. It'll be something modest. The new label doesn't mind, so long as it's recoupable out of royalties. Well, they get the final contract, and it's not quite what they expected. They figure it's better to be safe than sorry and they turn it over to a lawyer--one who says he's experienced in entertainment law and he hammers out a few bugs. They're still not sure about it, but the lawyer says he's seen a lot of contracts, and theirs is pretty good. They'll be great royalty: 13% [less a 1O% packaging deduction]. Wasn't it Buffalo Tom that were only getting 12% less 10? Whatever. The old label only wants 50 grand, an no points. Hell, Sub Pop got 3 points when they let Nirvana go. They're signed for four years, with options on each year, for a total of over a million dollars! That's a lot of money in any man's English. The first year's advance alone is $250,000. Just think about it, a quarter million, just for being in a rock band! Their manager thinks it's a great deal, especially the large advance. Besides, he knows a publishing company that will take the band on if they get signed, and even give them an advance of 20 grand, so they'll be making that money too. The manager says publishing is pretty mysterious, and nobody really knows where all the money comes from, but the lawyer can look that contract over too. Hell, it's free money. Their booking agent is excited about the band signing to a major. He says they can maybe average $1,000 or $2,000 a night from now on. That's enough to justify a five week tour, and with tour support, they can use a proper crew, buy some good equipment and even get a tour bus! Buses are pretty expensive, but if you figure in the price of a hotel room for everybody In the band and crew, they're actually about the same cost. Some bands like Therapy? and Sloan and Stereolab use buses on their tours even when they're getting paid only a couple hundred bucks a night, and this tour should earn at least a grand or two every night. It'll be worth it. The band will be more comfortable and will play better.

The agent says a band on a major label can get a merchandising company to pay them an advance on T-shirt sales! ridiculous! There's a gold mine here! The lawyer Should look over the merchandising contract, just to be safe. They get drunk at the signing party. Polaroids are taken and everybody looks thrilled. The label picked them up in a limo. They decided to go with the producer who used to be in Letterman's band. He had these technicians come in and tune the drums for them and tweak their amps and guitars. He had a guy bring in a slew of expensive old "vintage" microphones. Boy, were they "warm." He even had a guy come in and check the phase of all the equipment in the control room! Boy, was he professional. He used a bunch of equipment on them and by the end of it, they all agreed that it sounded very "punchy," yet "warm." All that hard work paid off. With the help of a video, the album went like hotcakes! They sold a quarter million copies! Here is the math that will explain just how fucked they are: These figures are representative of amounts that appear in record contracts daily. There's no need to skew the figures to make the scenario look bad, since real-life examples more than abound. income is bold and underlined, expenses are not.


Advance:	$ 250,000
Manager's cut: $ 37,500
Legal fees: $ 10,000
Recording Budget: $ 150,000
Producer's advance: $ 50,000
Studio fee: $ 52,500
Drum Amp, Mic and Phase "Doctors": $ 3,000
Recording tape: $ 8,000
Equipment rental: $ 5,000
Cartage and Transportation: $ 5,000
Lodgings while in studio: $ 10,000
Catering: $ 3,000
Mastering: $ 10,000
Tape copies, reference CDs, shipping tapes, misc. expenses: $ 2,000
Video budget: $ 30,000
Cameras: $ 8,000
Crew: $ 5,000
Processing and transfers: $ 3,000
Off-line: $ 2,000
On-line editing: $ 3,000
Catering: $ 1,000
Stage and construction: $ 3,000
Copies, couriers, transportation: $ 2,000
Director's fee: $ 3,000
Album Artwork: $ 5,000
Promotional photo shoot and duplication: $ 2,000
Band fund: $ 15,000
New fancy professional drum kit: $ 5,000
New fancy professional guitars [2]: $ 3,000
New fancy professional guitar amp rigs [2]: $ 4,000
New fancy potato-shaped bass guitar: $ 1,000
New fancy rack of lights bass amp: $ 1,000
Rehearsal space rental: $ 500
Big blowout party for their friends: $ 500
Tour expense [5 weeks]: $ 50,875
Bus: $ 25,000
Crew [3]: $ 7,500
Food and per diems: $ 7,875
Fuel: $ 3,000
Consumable supplies: $ 3,500
Wardrobe: $ 1,000
Promotion: $ 3,000
Tour gross income:	$ 50,000
Agent's cut: $ 7,500
Manager's cut: $ 7,500
Merchandising advance:	$ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Publishing advance:	$ 20,000
Manager's cut: $ 3,000
Lawyer's fee: $ 1,000
Record sales: 250,000 @ $12 =
$3,000,000
Gross retail revenue Royalty: [13% of 90% of retail]:
$ 351,000
Less advance: $ 250,000
Producer's points: [3% less $50,000 advance]:
$ 40,000
Promotional budget: $ 25,000
Recoupable buyout from previous label: $ 50,000
Net royalty:	$ -14,000
Record company income: 

Record wholesale price: $6.50 x 250,000 =
$1,625,000 gross income
Artist Royalties: $ 351,000
Deficit from royalties: $ 14,000
Manufacturing, packaging and distribution: @ $2.20 per record: $ 550,000
Gross profit: $ 7l0,000
The Balance Sheet: This is how much each player got paid at the end of the game. 

Record company: $ 710,000
Producer: $ 90,000
Manager: $ 51,000
Studio: $ 52,500
Previous label: $ 50,000
Agent: $ 7,500
Lawyer: $ 12,000
Band member net income each:	$ 4,031.25
The band is now 1/4 of the way through its contract, has made the music industry more than 3 million dollars richer, but is in the hole $14,000 on royalties. The band members have each earned about 1/3 as much as they would working at a 7-11, but they got to ride in a tour bus for a month. The next album will be about the same, except that the record company will insist they spend more time and money on it. Since the previous one never "recouped," the band will have no leverage, and will oblige. The next tour will be about the same, except the merchandising advance will have already been paid, and the band, strangely enough, won't have earned any royalties from their T-shirts yet. Maybe the T-shirt guys have figured out how to count money like record company guys. Some of your friends are probably already this fucked.

Steve Albini is an independent and corporate rock record producer most widely known for having produced Nirvana's "In Utero".


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## F1Filter

Rick said:


> I can't believe that venues charge a "merch rate." How fucking stupid is that?



It's highway robbery. 

Which is why a band I recently saw was hanging out at the merch booth after their set; and was telling everyone that they'd also be selling outside the venue on their bus -or- go to their website.


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## Homebrew1709

In response to Nightcrawler's post in particular:

This may sound harsh, but I don't really feel bad for bands that aren't doing well financially, especially if they are signed to a major label. If you haven't yet figured out that making a living off being in a band doesn't work 99.99% of the time, then you are just naive and making the same mistake that thousands of bands before you have made. In any other business, you project your sales, expenses, cash flows and perform other miscellaneous due diligence PRIOR to jumping into a deal or business venture. Unfortunately, most bands are too excited or just not sophisticated enough to really think these things through before signing on the dotted line. It's no secret anymore that the artists are at the bottom of the music industry food chain. Even the rich-as-fuck pop stars aren't making poop compared to the execs and directors of their record labels. Do bands get taken advantage of by labels? Perhaps. Is it illegal? No. You, as a band, just need to avoid being the sucker...


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## xshreditupx

Nick said:


> as far as i know the labels are where the money go's.
> 
> Its making profit after paying your label fees thats the hard part.
> 
> Youd be surprised at the cost of touring. Tourbusses + drivers can cost like $500 a day in some places.



sorry man, but thats way off. my buddies are on warp tour right now, bus, driver and gas 1100 dollars a day. hahaha for real. its hard to make cash, but if you do it right you can make a decent living, ie pay the bills.


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## Whiskey_Funeral

Fuck the music industry.


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## Cadavuh

I for one blame the musicians as much as I blame the music industry for these kind of problems. As much as I despise the exploitation of musicians via record labels, managers, etc.. the musicians are the ones who gave these people the control over them in the first place. They put their dirty hands out to us and we naively and ignorantly take them which in turn gives them all the power. In fact I despise musicians bitching about the music business as much as I despise the business itself. If your so hurt by it then go fucking do something about it. Start your own label, build your own studio, print your own CDs...all the knowledge and tools you will ever need are at your disposal.


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## Zugster

That's kinda like blaming homeowners bitching about banks and mortgages. No doubt some homeowners made bad decisions and bought too much house based on bad assumptions, etc. BUT - it's not like most people can raise the 6 figures of cash to buy a house outright. Mortgages are the only way for most people. Most musicians can't build their own music production and distribution systems from scratch for similar reasons.


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## Lon

the nirvana producer guy post is totally outdated imho, if i just see 52k$ studio figures i get the rages... you can produce a totally professional sounding album for cheesecakes, i bet with 5$ grand you're in if you have the workforce and skill in the band (and theres no excuse, everybody can learn anything... my calculations are based on professional mixing mastering and drum recording, the rest diy) and to be honest even with a crappy dayjob everyone can shell out 1k$ every 2 years to make a album if youre really invested.

this just makes me realize how much the industry has turned and i didn't even notice it because i just grew up as a musician in the whole "nah just do it ourselves" movement because nobody could shell out money for a studio, hell for the longest time in my live i couldnt even get the mo' for a decent amplifier... just since i have a decent paying job my gear has improved vastly ^^


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## petereanima

Cadavuh said:


> In my opinion this doesn't seem that bad. You just have to learn to live day by day and learn to be as minimalist as humanly possible. It seems to me these bands are living on a day to day income of roughly $25 per member. $15 income + $10 per diem. If budgeted correctly you could have everything you could possibly need on a day to day basis assuming you take the proper measures before going on tour.



And when you get home, you have no place to live, no job, no girlfriend. Awesome deal. 

You can basically hardly SURVIVE, as long as you are on tour.


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## Dyingsea

Lon said:


> the nirvana producer guy post is totally outdated imho, if i just see 52k$ studio figures i get the rages... you can produce a totally professional sounding album for cheesecakes



That's definitely a larger label studio budget but I disagree. Professional studios aren't cheap by any means and neither are quality engineers. You need to drop into a music industry city sometime and see what a professional studio brings to the table that the "go at it alone way" simply can not. There's some good stuff coming from the home DAW world but a lot of it is also very lacking.


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## MistaMarko

Most bands laugh at business and music going hand in hand. It's the bands that are "all about the art/music" and all this mess that won't make it. Sure, it's about that, but in the end, you need to have a SOLID, FIRM understanding of business ethics, practices, accounting, intellectual management skills, more advanced marketing strategies and more. Most bands have never even heard of these terms.

Why does Steve Vai, with no vocals and totally instrumental music in the rock/metal world that hardly has a niche, sell twice as many records as bands like Tool, Dream Theater, and more? Simple, he's a good business man.


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## Nightcrawler

I think the important thing about Steve Albini's post, especially in regards to when it was published (early 90's) is to bring attention to the scum side of the music industry, as it presents all the glamour of it and never the underside. Yes, we've all grown up in the DIY scene and that's how I've put out all my records and have had relative success with them in the indie/underground circuit. 

I've played music and toured for quite some time now and have many friends that are doing the same. Unless you get in with a supportive indie label, you're better off doing everything yourself. It's hard to make a buck, especially when there are sharks out there only concerned with making money off you. 

Like many people said, be smart about it and realize exactly what this is all about.


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## synrgy

Dyingsea said:


> That's definitely a larger label studio budget but I disagree. Professional studios aren't cheap by any means and neither are quality engineers. You need to drop into a music industry city sometime and see what a professional studio brings to the table that the "go at it alone way" simply can not. There's some good stuff coming from the home DAW world but a lot of it is also very lacking.



Yeah. There's truth to that.

I *love* home recording, and am *amazed* by how far it has come in such a short period of time, but:

No amount of fancy computers, expensive VST plugins and digital interfaces can dream of comparing to a fully treated live recording space, hundreds of thousands of dollars in microphone pre-amps, a massive SSL (or comparable) mixing console and a fully treated treated/isolated referencing room/monitors.

I'm not trying to start any pointless debate. I'm just saying that a laptop with Cubase/Ableton/Logic/etc is simply not the same thing as a professional studio.


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## Homebrew1709

Lon said:


> the nirvana producer guy post is totally outdated imho, if i just see 52k$ studio figures i get the rages... you can produce a totally professional sounding album for cheesecakes, i bet with 5$ grand you're in if you have the workforce and skill in the band (and theres no excuse, everybody can learn anything... my calculations are based on professional mixing mastering and drum recording, the rest diy) and to be honest even with a crappy dayjob everyone can shell out 1k$ every 2 years to make a album if youre really invested.



I agree that it's astronomically easier to make a professional sounding album in 2010 than it was in 1994. But back then, the only way for fans to get their hands on an album was to go to the record store and buy it. It may be cheaper to record, but it's also harder to sell, IMO. Now I'm not gonna go all Metallica here and preach against pirating/free downloading - it should just be pointed out that the music biz has changed a lot with the development of the internet. The pool of musicians and bands is HUGE now and there's so many ways for bands to get their music out there on the internet. The music biz, in basically every genre, is diluted with a million bands that all sound the same. There's SO much more competition among bands because anyone and everyone can get their music out to the public. This is probably a better deal for the listener than it is for the bands. The pie that is the music biz may be slightly bigger, but the slices have become smaller and smaller. Good for the labels, good for the listeners/fans, not so good for the participating musicians.


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## Warchest1

I wonder the same thing all the time. Like, when theres five bands on a bill playing a venue that holds 500-1000 people? They can't be making much.


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## Cadavuh

Zugster said:


> That's kinda like blaming homeowners bitching about banks and mortgages. No doubt some homeowners made bad decisions and bought too much house based on bad assumptions, etc. BUT - it's not like most people can raise the 6 figures of cash to buy a house outright. Mortgages are the only way for most people. Most musicians can't build their own music production and distribution systems from scratch for similar reasons.



Well if they couldn't raise $600k to pay back a loan in a reasonable amount of time, assuming they already had the ability to put in a hefty down-payment, they should be shopping for a cheaper house or not shopping at all. Concerning your second statement, look at Periphery. Their album was home recorded and listen to its quality, its phenomenal. I would say Misha used around $5-6k worth of gear to record it that he had invested in over time, probably over the course of a few years. As for distribution you have digital distribution via iTunes, CD Baby, etc.. that can be set up by the band itself. You can also distribute actual CDs from merch sites or Amazon. I agree that distribution is best done by a label through a distribution company though.







petereanima said:


> And when you get home, you have no place to live, no job, no girlfriend. Awesome deal.
> 
> You can basically hardly SURVIVE, as long as you are on tour.



Paraphrasing what I said, you should know what your getting into and know what to expect to get out of it before doing it. The premise of my post was that musicians in a mid-level band(making roughly $25 a day) have the ability to live day by day, easily I might add, on touring income while on tour. Once the tours over though, that's a different story.


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## Evil7

Why dont we all talk about ways to sway the power back to the musician. Ways for the musicians to take their cut back. What is a fair deal when dealing with a record label, venues, and managers. 
Re write the industry with a standard that is fair to musicians. Boycott all other contracts... ect.... Or does this sound outlandish? Musicians have the product to offer that makes the money. Seems as if this is the starting point. 

LETS TALK ABOUT SOLUTIONS!


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## Homebrew1709

Evil7 said:


> Why dont we all talk about ways to sway the power back to the musician. Ways for the musicians to take their cut back. What is a fair deal when dealing with a record label, venues, and managers.
> Re write the industry with a standard that is fair to musicians. Boycott all other contracts... ect.... Or does this sound outlandish? Musicians have the product to offer that makes the money. Seems as if this is the starting point.
> 
> LETS TALK ABOUT SOLUTIONS!



I think the biggest issue is, as with most business ventures, it requires a pretty large initial capital investment - that's a pretty big negative cash flow before you even begin making a penny. In most cases, you need the financial help of a label the same way small businesses go to banks for loans. Could a band incorporate into, say, an S-Corporation and put together a REAL business plan to present to a small bank in order to receive a loan (or series of loans) to cover the up-front costs of recording, merchandise, transportation, etc...Perform actual bookkeeping like a real business (track sales, expenses, depreciation of gear/assets (if possible), tax savings from interest payments, etc.) People incorporate their crappy lawn mowing and car parking businesses, so why not a band?


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## Zugster

Cadavuh said:


> Well if they couldn't raise $600k to pay back a loan in a reasonable amount of time, assuming they already had the ability to put in a hefty down-payment, they should be shopping for a cheaper house or not shopping at all....


 
Absolutely false. I know this is a side point but it bears some discussion.

Apparently you know little or nothing about buying houses. I have bought and sold several houses in different parts of the U.S. over a number of years.

First of all I said 6 figures which means anything over $100,000. A typical modest home being in the $150K to $350K depending on costs in the area. (At least these were common prices before the crash in the housing market). No person, or couple, with typical middle means or upper middle class means can put down much more than 20% of the purchase price of a home. They buy that home with a mortgage to cover the other 80% typically or a 30 year period. If their income is such that they can afford these mortgage payments, then this is the totally normal and responsible way to buy a home.

Say a couple with a combined income of $100,000 bought a home for $250K, putting down $50K. They could afford the mortgage payments on the $200K loan, but no way could they somehow come up with that $200K of cash "in a reasonable amount of time." Now say due to the recession, that couple loses their jobs and can't get anything with comparable pay for a year.

They lose their house.

Were they irresponsible? Hell no. Just totally normal and reasonable.

You can verify this by talking to a reputable real estate agent or doing some research yourself.


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## AcousticMinja

^^^ totally not related, but I wish houses out here were that cheap. haha most houses I see nowadays (at least where I live) are like $600-700k+ 

Anyway, back on topic, this thread really helped a friend of mine realize bands don't make a buttload of cash on tours. I had this discussion with him long ago, too. Showed him this today, and he's not someone who likes to read but really enjoyed everyone's input on this subject. One of the better threads I've read in a long long long time!!


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## Cadavuh

Evil7 said:


> Why dont we all talk about ways to sway the power back to the musician. Ways for the musicians to take their cut back. What is a fair deal when dealing with a record label, venues, and managers.
> Re write the industry with a standard that is fair to musicians. Boycott all other contracts... ect.... Or does this sound outlandish? Musicians have the product to offer that makes the money. Seems as if this is the starting point.
> 
> LETS TALK ABOUT SOLUTIONS!



It really has to do with the relationships of power. There seems to always be an underlying class struggle between the musicians trying to make a living and the people that work the music industry. Although some power has been coming back to the musicians lately; with all the digital recording technology, social networking sites, blogs etc... the musicians still happen to be the proletariat of the business. They are the means of production for the owners of the industry and therefore will be exploited accordingly.


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## alancrice

Yeah today I read an interview in the local paper about the drummer from the view, a scottish band. he was in a fight and they charged him £1000 for being in a fight with someone as he cuased the fight, anyway in the artical they said the court looked at his monthly income from being in a band and it was £300 a week!

and that is being in a smallish MAINSTREAM rock band, whos album went PLATINUM in uk, 

i doubt what we could class as "mainstream" metal such as Dragonforce (post Guitar hero) and bands like that make as much money as the view, but the views album went number 1 in uk peak chart position, DragonForces inhuman rampage went number 70 and got GOLD.

so i guess non mainstream metal bands are making literally NO money, like living on dole maybe £50 a week just to feed and play next gig...but the mainstream bands like Dragonforce (post guitar hero), trivium, disturbed will maybe be earning about £1000 a month which is pretty darn good, but FEW bands get there. mettallica and maiden are on a whole different ball game all together.


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## ghostred7

Mindcrime1204 said:


> It upsets me a little that musicians like the guys from Trivium with their emo-boycuts and mickey-mouse riffs are making more money than the way more gifted metal musicians who obviously spent more time crafting their talents are.


 
This isn't a new phenomenae either. Go back to the 80s for a minute. Poison came out with "Look What the Cat Dragged In" and made fuckloads of money. King Diamond didn't do nearly as much w/ Fatal Portrait or Malmsteen's Trilogy in those years.

Mainstream media, local bars, etc all want to see one thing: music that will make people dance, get thirsty, and buy drinks. Be it record labels, or the little club in the corner....general business public has been scared by Metal since inception. Hell, even when I worked in radio in NC from '91-'93 (OBX), I got shit from my PD for playing Metal on the air. They wanted to hear Skynard to Nirvana, but damn if Sepultura, King Diamond, Deicide, etc were allowed.


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## Vidge

Well, you guys bumped quite a dusty thread! Good thread though, and a subject people are always going to be talking about. Thread is sticky worthy if you ask me 



Homebrew1709 said:


> I think the biggest issue is, as with most business ventures, it requires a pretty large initial capital investment - that's a pretty big negative cash flow before you even begin making a penny. In most cases, you need the financial help of a label the same way small businesses go to banks for loans. Could a band incorporate into, say, an S-Corporation and put together a REAL business plan to present to a small bank in order to receive a loan (or series of loans) to cover the up-front costs of recording, merchandise, transportation, etc...Perform actual bookkeeping like a real business (track sales, expenses, depreciation of gear/assets (if possible), tax savings from interest payments, etc.) People incorporate their crappy lawn mowing and car parking businesses, so why not a band?



^I thought this was interesting. Imagine a "metal bank" . Where just like how a small business will go into the bank and show their business plans and ideas to the bank, and the loan officer or whoever determines if its a good risk, if it will become a successful business; You would have a band go in with a demo, and perhaps some prestigious musician/producer would listen to see if they think the band could get anywhere. If they are good, the "metal bank" loans them the money to get their band (business) off the ground. The band would cover everything from recording to distributing. Cut out all the middle people that come with signing to a label.

Idk, dreamy speculation


----------



## Customisbetter

synrgy said:


> Yeah. There's truth to that.
> 
> I *love* home recording, and am *amazed* by how far it has come in such a short period of time, but:
> 
> No amount of fancy computers, expensive VST plugins and digital interfaces can dream of comparing to a fully treated live recording space, hundreds of thousands of dollars in microphone pre-amps, a massive SSL (or comparable) mixing console and a fully treated treated/isolated referencing room/monitors.
> 
> I'm not trying to start any pointless debate. I'm just saying that a laptop with Cubase/Ableton/Logic/etc is simply not the same thing as a professional studio.



I know I'm contributing to a necro, but i gotta say:

I believe that Sneap on a Dell with Cubase could make a better sounding record than myself in a control room behind a $100K Icon board.


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## Nile

Two things to easily cut out costs for touring: Drive your own shit around, even if you need to buy a used bus I'd say you would probably be coming out in the end instead of needing to pay bus rentals and a driver. And set up your own gear, plain and simple, you do it at home probably, its not really too hard to do at a hotel or something so you don't need to pay a tech either.


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## PyramidSmasher

I hear that Michael Romeo makes bank, as he writes and produces all their music, and their the top selling band on their label.


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## JoeyBTL

Nile said:


> Two things to easily cut out costs for touring: Drive your own shit around, even if you need to buy a used bus I'd say you would probably be coming out in the end instead of needing to pay bus rentals and a driver. And set up your own gear, plain and simple, you do it at home probably, its not really too hard to do at a hotel or something so you don't need to pay a tech either.



i really agree with this. i know there are a lot of bands out there that have full time roadies and drivers and they could save a lot of money by cutting that stuff out. I'm sure a lot of them feel like they are rock stars and shouldn't have to do it themselves, but it IS their jobs to do what they are doing, so unless they are making gobs of money, it would help a lot.

I know that doesn't really go for most of the bands trying to make it because a lot DO do their own stuff, but it would help a lot of other bands as well.


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## lookralphsbak

7 Strings of Hate said:


> this might be true, but i have trouble believing it. I wouldnt say they are making a killing or anything, but i would bet its decent or else no one would do it.


You seem to have forgotten that they don't make 100% of everything they make. To give an example a band like White Chapel: White Chapel has a tour coming up. They have to buy merch/cds for their upcoming tour from their label to sell on the road for a discounted price (sell it at a price to make their money back and make a profit to survive on the road. They get paid up front for playing each gig. The money is split not only between the 6 or so members they have in the band but also split between their manager, label, booking agent, and anyone else that works for the band. Add onto that the expenses of living on the road. A lot of people seem to think that if a band is popular they make a lot of money. Yea maybe they do make a lot of money but they have to split it between the band as well as the people they work for or people that work for them. And in regards to the biggest metal band in the world, Metallica wins. If Metallica and IM were to tour together I think Metallica would be the headliner. While Iron Maiden is one of the hugest metal bands in the world, more people know of Metallica. Oh and I think Metallica makes 65 million in one tour... That gets split between the 5 guys in the band, their management, booking, crew, and all the other shit... Not sure how their record deal works, I doubt they get a piece of their touring profit. When I talked to my buddy at a record label he said that it's in the band's contract that (for the band we were discussing) when they make more than X amount of money up front they label get's Y percentage of that ( I think in this specific case it was 10% or 15%.


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## DLG

PyramidSmasher said:


> I hear that Michael Romeo makes bank, as he writes and produces all their music, and their the top selling band on their label.



I've seen Pinella working at the Guitar Center in Edison, NJ.


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## amarshism

All the money that gets earned on the road gets banked. You get a fixed salary a week and a cash pd on show days. If you're doing well then off days too. You have to be doing well to be getting paid a salary though.


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## cwhitey2

JoeyBTL said:


> i really agree with this. i know there are a lot of bands out there that have full time roadies and drivers and they could save a lot of money by cutting that stuff out. I'm sure a lot of them feel like they are rock stars and shouldn't have to do it themselves, but it IS their jobs to do what they are doing, so unless they are making gobs of money, it would help a lot.
> 
> I know that doesn't really go for most of the bands trying to make it because a lot DO do their own stuff, but it would help a lot of other bands as well.



Hell yeah, money not spent is money earned/burned/drank


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## USMarine75

I don't know... but... Does "snorting bumps of coke off of a strippers ass" go in the asset or liability column? That could really change the bottom line.


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## zukobro

Record companies of any size can market a good band just as well as the next good band. When it comes to mass numbers, artistic musicianship may matter to the musician, but the record companies just say "ok, here's two great acts with a bunch of followers. One will do it for 200,000 a year, the other is happy doing it for 20,000 a year and just funding themselves with day jobs". As a business owner, which would you do? Especially when you get to labels like Century Media, where the mass majority of their acts come from word of mouth. Metallica, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, all these guys have media representation from VH1, Fuze, warner bros/other major labels, basically the vast amount of large corporations getting involved with the production of their careers is what is helping them make so much. Amon Amarth, Protest the Hero, Kalmah, whatever band it is that is being spread by word of mouth alone is pretty much going to be a band willing to do it for next to nothing. If I can make 2,000 a month off playing music year round, I'd sign up no question in a heartbeat. So taking 1000 a month wouldn't take much convincing.


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## cwhitey2

USMarine75 said:


> I don't know... but... Does "snorting bumps of coke off of a strippers ass" go in the asset or liability column? That could really change the bottom line.





Both...you'll thank me later


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## Andromalia

Cadavuh said:


> It really has to do with the relationships of power. There seems to always be an underlying class struggle between the musicians trying to make a living and the people that work the music industry. Although some power has been coming back to the musicians lately; with all the digital recording technology, social networking sites, blogs etc... the musicians still happen to be the proletariat of the business. They are the means of production for the owners of the industry and therefore will be exploited accordingly.



This is only right from a certain point of view. Meaning, the point of view of musicians unable to play anything else than what they write themselves.
Face it: you want to make a living from music, it's easy: just pass the cutthroat entry contests in a pro orchestra. Yes, even philarmonics usually have a guitar player on the roster. 
I have grown in a world of classical musicians, and when you see them play, and see the training routine they stick to, you understand why rockstar wannabees are just guitar strummers, even the ones that are better than the rest.

Take chris Broderick, everybody is swooning over him (ok, me included) ooooh what a playing ability, ooooh he practices 5 hours a day. Right. Know what ? that's pretty standard for any orchstra player.
Here's what was my father's routine every day before he retired: 

10 AM: Ring, wake up. shower brakfast blahblah
11 AM: first pupil makes it in for his one hour lesson.
12 AM: leaving for a rehearsal in the Opera de Paris starting at 1PM and ongoing to 4 PM.
Back to home...5 PM: second pupil comes in, has to stop lesson midway to tell his son to lower the volume on his ##### amplifier that's cheating. Swears he'll never buy one again (thank you dad, love you)
6 PM: small break and luncheon
7PM: leaving for the Opera again
8PM-12 PM: Opera representation
1 PM-3 PM: endof day, dinner and free time. 

So, that's...7 hours of playing and 2 of teaching 5 days a week. Weekends were slacker but more often than not he played in a quatuor and other side projects to play Vivaldi and such in church evening concerts.

I showed him the Laiho video of the vivaldi summer theme. Answer: "huh, what's the deal, I played that when I was 8 years old".
And you know what ? _All the orchestra was the same_. So I don't think it's so much "playing metal" that is the issue, but the misconception in rock bands of what "being good" is.

In an orchestra, you can't hear what half of the orchestra is doing: it's drowned by the nearby instruments. that's why you need a chef: driving a 4 man band is like driving a sports car, driving an orchestra is like driving a supertanker. First conclusion: when starting rehearsals for an opera, you get given the paper music and must be able to play it *at once* with a minimal number of mistakes. In practice: my father played me the ENTIRE master of puppets song at FIRST READ while asking me to turn the pages.

That's what talented and reknowned studio musicians do. They can play *anything* decently in a matter of minutes. Playing it awesomely still takes some time, but getting started is easy.

*That* is what being good is, and *that* is how you can make a *very* comfortable living as a musician. Metal or not. My father died at 70, and played the viola for 65 years.


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## zukobro

Andromalia said:


> This is only right from a certain point of view. Meaning, the point of view of musicians unable to play anything else than what they write themselves.
> Face it: you want to make a living from music, it's easy: just pass the cutthroat entry contests in a pro orchestra. Yes, even philarmonics usually have a guitar player on the roster.
> I have grown in a world of classical musicians, and when you see them play, and see the training routine they stick to, you understand why rockstar wannabees are just guitar strummers, even the ones that are better than the rest.
> 
> Take chris Broderick, everybody is swooning over him (ok, me included) ooooh what a playing ability, ooooh he practices 5 hours a day. Right. Know what ? that's pretty standard for any orchstra player.
> Here's what was my father's routine every day before he retired:
> 
> 10 AM: Ring, wake up. shower brakfast blahblah
> 11 AM: first pupil makes it in for his one hour lesson.
> 12 AM: leaving for a rehearsal in the Opera de Paris starting at 1PM and ongoing to 4 PM.
> Back to home...5 PM: second pupil comes in, has to stop lesson midway to tell his son to lower the volume on his ##### amplifier that's cheating. Swears he'll never buy one again (thank you dad, love you)
> 6 PM: small break and luncheon
> 7PM: leaving for the Opera again
> 8PM-12 PM: Opera representation
> 1 PM-3 PM: endof day, dinner and free time.
> 
> So, that's...7 hours of playing and 2 of teaching 5 days a week. Weekends were slacker but more often than not he played in a quatuor and other side projects to play Vivaldi and such in church evening concerts.
> 
> I showed him the Laiho video of the vivaldi summer theme. Answer: "huh, what's the deal, I played that when I was 8 years old".
> And you know what ? _All the orchestra was the same_. So I don't think it's so much "playing metal" that is the issue, but the misconception in rock bands of what "being good" is.
> 
> In an orchestra, you can't hear what half of the orchestra is doing: it's drowned by the nearby instruments. that's why you need a chef: driving a 4 man band is like driving a sports car, driving an orchestra is like driving a supertanker. First conclusion: when starting rehearsals for an opera, you get given the paper music and must be able to play it *at once* with a minimal number of mistakes. In practice: my father played me the ENTIRE master of puppets song at FIRST READ while asking me to turn the pages.
> 
> That's what talented and reknowned studio musicians do. They can play *anything* decently in a matter of minutes. Playing it awesomely still takes some time, but getting started is easy.
> 
> *That* is what being good is, and *that* is how you can make a *very* comfortable living as a musician. Metal or not. My father died at 70, and played the viola for 65 years.



By that standard, just look at a juiliard music student. There's 5 hours of manditory PRACTICE, just alone, per day. That doesn't include rehearsals, performances, classes, none of that. Just fucking practice. So you have a Juiliard student getting 6 days a week of 8-12 hours a day of playing. That's all they do is play. As far as talent is concerned, of COURSE the most talented are going to be in classical, it's more demanding. But the big money is in commercial success with popular mainstream music. There are far less classical musicians today than there were 20 years ago, and unless a trend changes, that will continue until there are almost no classical musicians. Right now, yeah, that's a great market. In 20 years it might still be a great market, but it will die before the mainstream does, and that's a fact any musician trying to make a living is going to have to face.


----------



## Andromalia

> There are far less classical musicians today than there were 20 years ago, and unless a trend changes, that will continue until there are almost no classical musicians.


Don't know where you get that from, in France at least the number of orchestras is pretty stable.



> But the big money is in commercial success with popular mainstream music.


Yeah, but for how many people ? You have less commercially successful CDs worldwide than you have classical musicians in operation. Take all the pro orchestras in the US, that's 40 violins each, 20 viola, I think 10 cellos and 5 basses, plus all the winds, brass and percussions.


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## zukobro

Andromalia said:


> Don't know where you get that from, in France at least the number of orchestras is pretty stable.
> 
> Yeah, but for how many people ? You have less commercially successful CDs worldwide than you have classical musicians in operation. Take all the pro orchestras in the US, that's 40 violins each, 20 viola, I think 10 cellos and 5 basses, plus all the winds, brass and percussions.



And what's the commercial appeal? In order for a business to survive, you have to have patrons. intellectuals are the ones who enjoy Classical, and when it comes to commercialized music output, economically the mass majority of money is in mainstream, it always will be. A million people buying an album or going to a concert in a single month is something that a classical institution will NOT pull in. 

And for the record, I'm a classical performance major, I already know what my chances are. They're no better through school than they are in the mainstream, and that applies to everyone.


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## Andromalia

Yeah, I know mainstream draws more money, but I was talking of making a living for the musician, which is the topic here.


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## fps

About all this "how much you practise" stuff. I think rock musicians/ players in a rock or metal BAND need to be able to write music that connects with a fanbase. That is the most important thing. Orchestral players, they tend not to be creating, but usually interpreting and reinterpreting. 

To be a guitarist for hire, you have to have extensive knowledge and ability in a wide variety of scenarios, however.


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## zukobro

both the responses before this are good. But the thing is, Classical is a cutthroat market too. Only 7 percent of applicants get into schools like Juiliard and Berklee, and these are schools that many orchestras will draft directly from. I don't think either has an ADVANTAGE, per say. Getting your rock band discovered? chances aren't that great. But if you're gonna do classical, you'd better be damn good. Each has an up/down in general. 

The only point I was trying to make is becoming a paid classical musician is just as difficult, if not more hard, than making it into mainstream. (The benefit, however, even if you don't become a famous classical musician, at least you get a degree out of the process)


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## Andromalia

This is true. I did say cutthroat in my first post. The main difference is that classical teachers do their utmost to discourage kids from thinking "they're gonna make it" and "going to make big money".
Piano and violin are much more popular for parents to put their kids into than guitar, so you have a shitload of kids dreaming they'll become the next Yehudi Menhuin. So you have got much more trained kids of say 12 years who learned the violin *and* theory etc than youngsters with guitars that know theory: those ear-learned Nirvana songs on their stereo.

The differencewith the classical kids is, they are not told "oh yeah you're gonna be rich and famous, sign this contract" and endup touring for low wages and spending their education years out the window. They're being told 'sorry, not good enough to carry on to next class'.
If you make it to Berkeley and such (not familiar with the US side of things, but let's say it's the equivalent of the Paris National Superior School of Music) and get their diplomas, they will likely get a job in a regional ochestra and earn a real salary, and progress to national orchestras within 10 years for the best of them. It's much less random, since amateurs of classical music are not subject to trends and their numbers are stable.


----------



## zukobro

Andromalia said:


> This is true. I did say cutthroat in my first post. The main difference is that classical teachers do their utmost to discourage kids from thinking "they're gonna make it" and "going to make big money".
> Piano and violin are much more popular for parents to put their kids into than guitar, so you have a shitload of kids dreaming they'll become the next Yehudi Menhuin. So you have got much more trained kids of say 12 years who learned the violin *and* theory etc than youngsters with guitars that know theory: those ear-learned Nirvana songs on their stereo.
> 
> The differencewith the classical kids is, they are not told "oh yeah you're gonna be rich and famous, sign this contract" and endup touring for low wages and spending their education years out the window. They're being told 'sorry, not good enough to carry on to next class'.
> If you make it to Berkeley and such (not familiar with the US side of things, but let's say it's the equivalent of the Paris National Superior School of Music) and get their diplomas, they will likely get a job in a regional ochestra and earn a real salary, and progress to national orchestras within 10 years for the best of them. It's much less random, since amateurs of classical music are not subject to trends and their numbers are stable.



That's true. But now you're talking about a low level of buying your career in a way. Juilliard and Berklee schools of music are two of the top in America (both are top ten, not the top two) if you can afford 50,000 dollars per year to get a reputable school to teach you, plus a MINIMUM of 10 years playing experience before you apply for that school. I think we may be talking opposite ends of the spectrum here though, lol. In the U.S., there's just not the same appreciation for classical music that there used to be, which is a real shame, because if I could make money playing music ANY way, it'd be classical piano or guitar. MAYBE jazz. 

Classical music is far more stable, for sure. But it's still on a slow decline in popularity. TBO, i think you'd have a better shot at becoming a T.V. show composer or film composer than a musician of any kind who can make enough to support yourself these days, but that's all just speculation.


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## Andromalia

Well, the high level schools in europe are all state funded and certainly do not cost 50K. The admission is not a test however, it's a full fledged competition, with jurys and all. Once you're in you're pretty much set, but getting in is the big issue.


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## fps

Cadavuh said:


> It really has to do with the relationships of power. There seems to always be an underlying class struggle between the musicians trying to make a living and the people that work the music industry. Although some power has been coming back to the musicians lately; with all the digital recording technology, social networking sites, blogs etc... the musicians still happen to be the proletariat of the business. They are the means of production for the owners of the industry and therefore will be exploited accordingly.



I'm not sure about this. Class struggle? Perhaps. In reality in the past a band could only ever possibly make it big with the help of a record label. Think of the very biggest bands. Passing off the cost of albums, t-shirts, concert tickets, however high, on to the label, "the man", was a great way of allowing a band to keep their cred while making a fortune, if they were right at the top of the industry. Those famous icons of rebellion that everybody loved so much, they were having their cake and eating it too, acting out like jackasses but knowing that every outrageous exploit was a way of generating publicity for the band and money for themselves, because their management and label were putting them in positions where all of them together would benefit financially. That industry has come crashing down now. 

High profile artists- perhaps those who aren't making megamoney, but the well-known ones, the big underground heavyweights- are not just being exploited by management or record labels any more- they're being exploited by the people who CALL themselves their "fans". With pirate downloading, we have been shown that the vast, VAST majority of people don't give a flying **** about the bands whose music they love. When given the straight choice between supporting a band or stealing their music, the majority steal. 

One possible solution is greater transparency. When buying a CD I want to know how much money goes directly to the band. I think bands might have to run themselves like charities, accepting donations, so the kid with the guilty conscience can send them a few quid having downloaded their album for free. In fact, this would probably send out an even stronger message, crush the labels to a greater degree!!


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## Rick

I buy CDs and shirts from the band directly at shows because I know more money will go right to them.


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## Andromalia

Piracy isn't the problem. Assuming no inflation because I don't want to calculate it and juggle with numbers, someone who had 100$ a month to spend on music in 1980 still has 100$ to spend in 2010. Difference ? There's 10 times the music available.
Because for all the new bands, the old guys Maiden Metallica Slayer still make records. A band like Periphery competes with Metallica for those 100$. People download music they wouldn't have bought anyway because their 100$ are already spent buying music, but allow them to buy less and less %s of the overall music production.

As for getting paid, I've read Ozzy's autobiography during a plane trip, (hilarious read, I recommend it, obvisouly not high literature), and it took all of 20 pages to see the first mention of lawyers and problems to get the money off the managers/record company. It's nothing really new, those bands had zero economic sense and idea about what the business was about.


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## Aurochs34

Andromalia said:


> Piracy isn't the problem. Assuming no inflation because I don't want to calculate it and juggle with numbers, someone who had 100$ a month to spend on music in 1980 still has 100$ to spend in 2010. Difference ? There's 10 times the music available.
> Because for all the new bands, the old guys Maiden Metallica Slayer still make records. A band like Periphery competes with Metallica for those 100$. People download music they wouldn't have bought anyway because their 100$ are already spent buying music, but allow them to buy less and less %s of the overall music production.
> 
> As for getting paid, I've read Ozzy's autobiography during a plane trip, (hilarious read, I recommend it, obvisouly not high literature), and it took all of 20 pages to see the first mention of lawyers and problems to get the money off the managers/record company. It's nothing really new, those bands had zero economic sense and idea about what the business was about.



thing is man, unfortunately people download the music they DO want, too. It's not all simply a bonus or something like that on top of the $100 they consistently spend on music. grab several cases of Guinness and kick back listening to 100% free music.

As far as I'm concerned, it must be a literally conscious decision/act on the listener's part to actually go buy the music. "i realize i'm supporting Justin Broadrick bc the man's a fucking genius and i don't want to see him stop producing & start living in a box". i don't think everyone (most people?) do that.

There's almost nothing non-tangible that can't be had for free (except a particularly amazing virtu-whore, perhaps...) 

and I'm totally with you on Ozzy's bio! amazing!


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## krypter

I think the only way forward is for a band to present itself as an entire entertainment experience. Multimedia is the way forward. You have to embrace excellent "see-it-no-where-else" style live shows, amazing videos, great shirt design etc along with the actual music to stand a chance of making it big.


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## Lon

krypter said:


> I think the only way forward is for a band to present itself as an entire entertainment experience. Multimedia is the way forward. You have to embrace excellent "see-it-no-where-else" style live shows, amazing videos, great shirt design etc along with the actual music to stand a chance of making it big.


srsly, why not... this trend already happens in a lot of other entertainment branches, although poorly executed (a lot of movies with their "websites" and "gadgets" completely ignoring that a movie has roughly a life of 1 month) or very well executed (yes i have to say it: pokemon)

even in the beginning of rock, there was a presentation model and distinct style (heavy drug using long haired sweaty guys playing loud music) but this is 40 years later , maybe that simple formula just doesnt cut it anymore


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## drmosh

Rick said:


> I buy CDs and shirts from the band directly at shows because I know more money will go right to them.



I make a point of buying a shirt or 2 (and whatever else I can get my hands on, DVDs etc) at every gig I go to because that's money that helps the band.


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## lookralphsbak

Rick said:


> I can't believe that venues charge a "merch rate." How fucking stupid is that?


Don't worry, most bands lie when it comes to selling merch and handing numbers to the venues


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## Vidge

lookralphsbak said:


> Don't worry, most bands lie when it comes to selling merch and handing numbers to the venues



Couldnt the band just set up shop from their fan and sell merch from the parking lot...?


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## GalacticDeath

Vidge said:


> Couldnt the band just set up shop from their fan and sell merch from the parking lot...?


 yeah some bands do that


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## Fiction

I download most of my music, Shame on me.

Although, being a 17 year old on a KFC wage  I do try to buy an album or two a week IF I can, but I always try to get to those bands gigs, I introduce the band to others and I buy a lot of T-Shirts, posters etc from the bands website. I think it was protest the hero, but at one of their concerts they told everyone in the crowd to download their album. Its all about spreading your name, getting those gigs and merch.

Edit: Also some music is ridiculous to buy, I've been to basically every music cd store around my city and I think i've seen 2 zappa albums at $30 each, its hard to afford that and find his stuff seeing he has 60+ albums. And this goes for a lot of other artists I like, Theres about a thousand rows of rock/pop and a section about a metre long for punk, 2 metres for metal/hardcore and they don't stock anything I like.


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## Prydogga

Buying direct from artist is usually cheap as hell, and iTunes albums are usually $16 or something on release, and are cheaper later.

I think I always have a big lack in music in my possession because I'm so very against myself downloading it. Luckily there's so many good merch deals from artists that let me get an album and a shirt or what have you for the price of lunch.


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## noob_pwn

I think what a lot of people aren't realising is that to get the ball rolling, you need capital.
Bands need money to buy merch, buy a van, pay for a record, pay for flights etc.
As young people they won't have much cash behind them, let alone money to pay for CD replication, distribution and marketing.

This is why labels are such an important staple, if you already have money behind you, you can do a lot yourself but you will lack the contacts and expertise needed to make things happen and a label is key to opening all these doors. They are just as important as they always have been for any upcoming band


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## Bradd

well my yearly income is -$5000 this year lol. aaaah to make an album. and here i am letting people listen to it for free on the net, how stupid of me, oh well. oh and a little fact about itunes. they sell our album for $17, we see... $7 of that money. amazon however, sells it for $8 and we get $7..... go figure lol. or u could always buy the physical album off me with free shipping for $15 haha. 


hopefully... one day... ill be able to live off my music, but for now...


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## amarshism

Fuck cd sales. Even if your cd sells out it's pressing your return on a small pressing 1-3000 is going to be minimal compared to the merch and performance fee you should be collecting if your band is of such stature to be selling out such a pressing. What needs to happen is more people getting out to shows and buying merch!


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## Bradd

amarshism said:


> *Fuck cd sales*. Even if your cd sells out it's pressing your return on a small pressing 1-3000 is going to be minimal compared to the merch and performance fee you should be collecting if your band is of such stature to be selling out such a pressing. What needs to happen is more people getting out to shows and buying merch!



oh how i do know that mate haha. i was just re-iterating the fact of how little you make off cds


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## zukobro

Bradd said:


> oh how i do know that mate haha. i was just re-iterating the fact of how little you make off cds



This isn't new though. Even back in the 90's, before downloading was common practice, bands weren't getting a penny off their albums (not all bands, just a lot of the bigger mainstream ones), but instead from shows and merch. 

Here's what scares me about all the label/band/cds/show stuff though: Labels pull their primary income from their artists cd sales. Bands pull their primary income from shows (when signed to lables), then everyone starts downloading music. So if labels don't feel their making enough off their cd's, while the mainstream bands will most likely still be able to pull in cash with such a significant loss, wouldn't a massive amount of underground labels start tapping into bands show money at a way higher percentage than they already do, if they already do? What I'm getting at is, if you're a band making a thousand dollars a month per person, I wouldn't be surprised if these economic numbers pushed that number in the negative, COSTING the underground music scene more than they are able to make. But that's figuring in stuff like market/stock/economy crap too. Just a though.


----------



## amarshism

It's called a 360 deal.


----------



## Evil7

Is it really that hard to DIY self release / find your own cd press company and distributions?  make your own money.... 

Its hard work but no better time then now... If you gain popularity then you will see honest returns for your band... The internet is a freee promotional tool. You can buy add space in any publications .. for a fat$$$...... If my band does not get picked up from our presskits we sent.. I am seriously thinking about self-releasing and distributing... DIY It a slower rout, but in the end u may be 100 times more happy if you are successfull.


----------



## Vidge

noob_pwn said:


> I think what a lot of people aren't realising is that to get the ball rolling, you need capital.
> Bands need money to buy merch, buy a van, pay for a record, pay for flights etc.
> As young people they won't have much cash behind them, let alone money to pay for CD replication, distribution and marketing.
> 
> This is why labels are such an important staple, if you already have money behind you, you can do a lot yourself but you will lack the contacts and expertise needed to make things happen and a label is key to opening all these doors. They are just as important as they always have been for any upcoming band



Earlier in the thread I talked about banks treating bands like a business; as thats essentially what a band is. You go into a bank designed for loaning out money to bands (if they "approve" them) just as they do for small businesses so they can get started and become self sustaining. A band would use that money to record, create CD's, distribute, merch, touring, etc. If they hire out different companies to distribute or hire a producer, rent a studio, feel the need for a manager, its solely up to the band. All the band has to do is beable to make the monthly payment on their loan. They can hire the shit out or do everything themselves; because as we all know, there are bands that are capable of literally doing everything, if only they had the funds.

Dreamy speculation...



Bradd said:


> well my yearly income is -$5000 this year lol. aaaah to make an album. and here i am letting people listen to it for free on the net, how stupid of me, oh well. oh and a little fact about itunes. they sell our album for $17, we see... $7 of that money. amazon however, sells it for $8 and we get $7..... go figure lol. or u could always buy the physical album off me with free shipping for $15 haha.
> 
> 
> hopefully... one day... ill be able to live off my music, but for now...



That sucks your in the hole; but aside from that, you getting $7 when amazon sells if for $8? That sounds like a great ratio personally... and obviously people are going to be more apt in buying it for $8 than $17, rising overall sells if you can encourage people to purchase from there.


----------



## LamaSabachthani

liquidcow said:


> This is precisely the thing, people _will_ do it. I'm finding the same thing with the film industry at the moment, if it's a job that people really want to do, you can't expect to make any money because there is always someone else out there who will do what you do for free. Film makers and record companies can get away without paying much, or anything, because people will still do it. Technically there are guidelines to try and stop this, but when the people doing the job are themselves willing to ignore that then it makes no difference.



I guess the idea is to just suffer through it until you can afford it.

My cousin really wanted to work in the film industry, so he got a bunch of entry-level jobs in studios and ended up barely being able to survive on the absurd amount of money they paid him, and had to live in a part of london that was literally the last stop on the piccadilly line (nice place actually, but totally out of the way when you're working in central london).

Anyways, after about 5 or 6 or 7 years of that, he now lives in a flat overlooking the river thames in greenwich, pulls down a comfortable salary, and is now getting into film production i.e. the financing of it (and has worked on the James Bond and Harry Potter films, to name just a few).

Guess you really do have to love what you're doing, otherwise there's just no hope.


----------



## zukobro

LamaSabachthani said:


> I guess the idea is to just suffer through it until you can afford it.
> 
> My cousin really wanted to work in the film industry, so he got a bunch of entry-level jobs in studios and ended up barely being able to survive on the absurd amount of money they paid him, and had to live in a part of london that was literally the last stop on the piccadilly line (nice place actually, but totally out of the way when you're working in central london).
> 
> Anyways, after about 5 or 6 or 7 years of that, he now lives in a flat overlooking the river thames in greenwich, pulls down a comfortable salary, and is now getting into film production i.e. the financing of it (and has worked on the James Bond and Harry Potter films, to name just a few).
> 
> Guess you really do have to love what you're doing, otherwise there's just no hope.



Your photo you put up of mr. Townsend in all his receding hairline greatness is a fantastic example of what ya just mentioned.


----------



## Bradd

Vidge said:


> Dreamy speculation...
> 
> 
> 
> That sucks your in the hole; but aside from that, you getting $7 when amazon sells if for $8? That sounds like a great ratio personally... and obviously people are going to be more apt in buying it for $8 than $17, rising overall sells if you can encourage people to purchase from there.




mate ive been in debt since i turned 18 with cars and shit, so its no real biggy, but i was pointing out how much you get off itunes and the like, someone mentioned that they buy off itunes cos it goes straight to the artist, which is definitely not true. but its all good, im going to uni next year to do sound engineering, so one way or another ill be working in the music industry  its what i love, i couldnt imagine doing anything else! 

but, as ive always said, if you ever wake up one morning and think of your music as a "job" then, just give up. cos really, we do this for the love of it  .... well i do anyways. hence why i dont mind dropping 5000 bucks to release an album, cos i love it


----------



## Homebrew1709

Vidge said:


> Earlier in the thread I talked about banks treating bands like a business; as thats essentially what a band is. You go into a bank designed for loaning out money to bands (if they "approve" them) just as they do for small businesses so they can get started and become self sustaining. A band would use that money to record, create CD's, distribute, merch, touring, etc. If they hire out different companies to distribute or hire a producer, rent a studio, feel the need for a manager, its solely up to the band. All the band has to do is beable to make the monthly payment on their loan. They can hire the shit out or do everything themselves; because as we all know, there are bands that are capable of literally doing everything, if only they had the funds.
> 
> Dreamy speculation...



I'll jump back in here since your earlier post piggybacked off of my post from months ago...

When I initially threw out the idea, there were some factors I didn't consider and there are some fundamental problems with the "metal bank", as you put it. 

First, banks don't like to make loans without any collateral, and most bands, being mostly young individuals, don't have any substantial personal assets that a bank would accept as collateral. Even if they did, it's unlikely that bunch a 20-something year olds would take whatever money/assets they have saved up and risk it all on a musical endeavor. 

Also, the music industry and musical tastes are fickle and subjective in nature. Thus, it's difficult to project future results based on other similar bands. It's damn near impossible to compare 2 bands quantitatively. Could you, with a high level of confidence, say: BAND X and BAND Y sound similar; BAND X has been successful, thus BAND Y will be successful too...? Typically, you must use comparable market data of some sort to display that your business model, whatever it may be, can be successful. And to do that, you rely on raw data. There's just not much quantifiable data out there to compare bands to each other and to support assumptions.

Loans require monthly debt service to be paid and it's damn hard to consistently cash-flow month to month as a metal band.


----------



## zukobro

Homebrew1709 said:


> I'll jump back in here since your earlier post piggybacked off of my post from months ago...
> 
> When I initially threw out the idea, there were some factors I didn't consider and there are some fundamental problems with the "metal bank", as you put it.
> 
> First, banks don't like to make loans without any collateral, and most bands, being mostly young individuals, don't have any substantial personal assets that a bank would accept as collateral. Even if they did, it's unlikely that bunch a 20-something year olds would take whatever money/assets they have saved up and risk it all on a musical endeavor.
> 
> Also, the music industry and musical tastes are fickle and subjective in nature. Thus, it's difficult to project future results based on other similar bands. It's damn near impossible to compare 2 bands quantitatively. Could you, with a high level of confidence, say: BAND X and BAND Y sound similar; BAND X has been successful, thus BAND Y will be successful too...? Typically, you must use comparable market data of some sort to display that your business model, whatever it may be, can be successful. And to do that, you rely on raw data. There's just not much quantifiable data out there to compare bands to each other and to support assumptions.
> 
> Loans require monthly debt service to be paid and it's damn hard to consistently cash-flow month to month as a metal band.



There is a real world logic to your statement that cannot be ignored. Furthermore, People can barely get loans for a house right now WITH a secure job. Not that all musicians have bad credit, but well...the two seem to be in cahoots in a constant basis. I imagine that the APR on that puppy would be around 49%. I.E., you fail, you're fucked.


----------



## guitareben

Bah, do it this way!!!


----------



## LamaSabachthani

Variant said:


> We'll crabwalk our way into the hearts of Americans.



Crustacean-djent is the next 'big' thing on the horizon


----------



## FACTORY

This thread is great, it took me about an hour or two to read only a few pages with-out skimming and I'm hooked.

Thanks to all who keep it growing.


----------



## Uncreative123

zukobro said:


> That's true. But now you're talking about a low level of buying your career in a way. Juilliard and Berklee schools of music are two of the top in America (both are top ten, not the top two) if you can afford 50,000 dollars per year to get a reputable school to teach you, plus a MINIMUM of 10 years playing experience before you apply for that school. I think we may be talking opposite ends of the spectrum here though, lol. In the U.S., there's just not the same appreciation for classical music that there used to be, which is a real shame, because if I could make money playing music ANY way, it'd be classical piano or guitar. MAYBE jazz.
> 
> Classical music is far more stable, for sure. But it's still on a slow decline in popularity. TBO, i think you'd have a better shot at becoming a T.V. show composer or film composer than a musician of any kind who can make enough to support yourself these days, but that's all just speculation.



Julliard isn't a music school, it's a performing arts school. Berklee is the no.1 contemporary music school in the country, maybe world. I can't speak for Julliard, but Berklee isn't $50k a year. Plus there's no "time put in on instrument" prerequisite for either school. Regarding one of your other posts, going to either school does not automatically set you up with some type of performance job. Those are few and far between and I think better suited for people coming out of Julliard or New England Conservatory. As an instructor I got my job based on my schools reputation (because I was never asked to play a note) which I suppose is good, but whether or not it was worth the price tag is up to the individual. For a long time I thought it wasn't, but now that I have a job that pays really well and allows me to travel and be on tour with a band and insures I never have to have a "real" job in my life, for me makes it worth it. But many of my friends who graduated don't even work in the music industry or any field of music. 

As far as recorded music goes, in the metal world, the majority of bands make basically nothing regardless of how much of the publishing they own. Unless you're on the same level as bands like All That Remains, Asking Alexandria, Lamb of God, or *maybe* even Whitechapel now, it's basically nothing. It's all going to come from merch. And now with $5/gal gasoline prices on the horizon it is going to be harder than ever for up and coming bands. Most labels aren't giving tour support so that in conjunction with gas prices just really makes for a volatile mix


----------



## Jakke

There was someone asking waaay back how it is with death metal acts... 

Cannibal makes an extremely good living, that's because they tour a lot and that Paul and Alex reputable business sense. They said on centuries of torment that they can live comfortable without having to worry to much about money.

The more underground bands have to have a day job, that's just how it is


----------



## kmacdizzlem

yeah shannon lucas actually used to work at the Guitar Center in Canton MI before he joined TBDM and when he joined he was telling us how excited he was that he can actually make enough money to not have a job. i tried to get them to play a show at a block party and back in '09 and they charge a minimum of $5,000


----------



## drmosh

kmacdizzlem said:


> yeah shannon lucas actually used to work at the Guitar Center in Canton MI before he joined TBDM and when he joined he was telling us how excited he was that he can actually make enough money to not have a job. i tried to get them to play a show at a block party and back in '09 and they charge a minimum of $5,000



so how far does 5k go between a band? not very.
Anecdotal evidence at best.
Maybe Shannon didn't need a job but he wasn't financially secure for the future


----------



## DLG

the definition of financially secure changes once you have kids and need to buy a house and more out of your one bedroom apartment.


----------



## drmosh

DLG said:


> the definition of financially secure changes once you have kids and need to buy a house and more out of your one bedroom apartment.



obvious statement is obvious


----------



## nickgray

Uncreative123 said:


> As far as recorded music goes, in the metal world, the majority of bands make basically nothing regardless of how much of the publishing they own



Yeah, but nowadays you can actually make a great sounding record at home and then sell it directly via the internet. We'll be seeing more and more of these kind of records in the near future as the technology progresses.


----------



## MartinMTL

nickgray said:


> Yeah, but nowadays you can actually make a great sounding record at home and then sell it directly via the internet. We'll be seeing more and more of these kind of records in the near future as the technology progresses.



I feel that recording studios are going to start disappearing. Anyone can get all they need for recording while just sitting in front of their computer. In a way I find it better because its much easier for me, but for some reason I still like the concept of going into a recording studio. I guess you do get a better sound, but with enough experience even home recordings can sound almost as good.


----------



## drmosh

nickgray said:


> Yeah, but nowadays you can actually make a great sounding record at home and then sell it directly via the internet. We'll be seeing more and more of these kind of records in the near future as the technology progresses.



Doesn't mean you're going to make any significant amount of money though. It's always really hard


----------



## MartinMTL

drmosh said:


> Doesn't mean you're going to make any significant amount of money though. It's always really hard



i does cut down on recording costs however. Once you have all of the equipment that is...


----------



## nickgray

MartinMTL said:


> I guess you do get a better sound, but with enough experience even home recordings can sound almost as good.



All things considered, there are plenty of abysmal retail records out there. And that's not counting the loudness war, which makes virtually every single record (aside from classical music, some jazz and a couple of other exceptions) a challenge to listen to.



drmosh said:


> Doesn't mean you're going to make any significant amount of money though.



Significant? No. But if you could consistently put out _quality_ material you could probably live off of it. As I've said, I'm dead certain we're going to see this kind of thing in the near future.



> It's always really hard



Really hard? Hauling crates, now that's really hard. Hobbies are not hard, they're challenging, it's a big difference if you ask me.



MartinMTL said:


> i does cut down on recording costs however. Once you have all of the equipment that is...



It's not a lot of money really. $1000 for a pair of reasonably good monitors, $500 (and that's pushing it) for room treatment stuff, $500 for a sound card, $500 for a mic preamp, $500-1000 for a condenser mic, $100 for a dynamic mic. Also, $1500 for a good PC with a large monitor, $500 for software (Reaper is essentially free, superior drummer costs like $200 or so, the rest goes on some random plugins). So in total it should cost around $5000. And that's for pretty good stuff. If you save about $250 each month you can build a studio in about two years or so.


----------



## drmosh

nickgray said:


> Significant? No. But if you could consistently put out _quality_ material you could probably live off of it. As I've said, I'm dead certain we're going to see this kind of thing in the near future.



At this point in time, unless you are already known I am not so sure.
However, word of mouth is insane. 
Maybe an analogy can be made with some iphone apps? small teams, small budget and if you're lucky (and I take that term loosely, shit is hard work to promote and make) and you can really get big. Different market though and damn the day people can only get music through specific channels


----------



## nickgray

drmosh said:


> However, word of mouth is insane



If I were actually a good player and composer with lots ideas and a couple of recorded tracks, I'd probably start making high quality covers on youtube before posting original stuff.


----------



## drmosh

nickgray said:


> If I were actually a good player and composer with lots ideas and a couple of recorded tracks, I'd probably start making high quality covers on youtube before posting original stuff.



I'd argue it also depends on the genre, but again. obvious


----------



## Alpenglow

Chris Letchford has been extremely open with how STS manages their money and gives some tips to manage your band's income. He gave more detailed advice in a comment on one of their youtube videos, but I couldn't find it. Regardless, here's him in a Heavy Blog is Heavy interview where they were talking about income and such.



> Yes and no. I mean, it all depends. Like, Im sure youve interviewed a lot of bands and a lot of them tell you that they dont make money. I mean, a lot of it is the way you handle your businessbecause your band is your business, you know? Lets say you have a rider that you get every day, like food and booze or whatever. I mean, you could take it as a buy-out which would buy you food instead of having it all be something to purchase alcohol. You know, you can do without some of those things and just get the necessities like food and making more money that way. So it all just depends on how you handle it. Like, we handle everything from more of a business standpoint where were all not really big partiers, you know? We look at touring as our way of living. But teaching, I mean, I teach because I enjoy it. I dont _have_ to teach, but I really enjoy it and being out on tour, all these kids come out to take lessons with me are obviously super excited cause they would normally not be able to take a lesson with me cause I dont live in their city. So its kinda cool in a way to do that, but you know, I also have books out. Like, instructional books and tab books and stuff, so


----------



## -OTW-

This is depressing if your not 17 years old.


----------



## RagtimeDandy

nickgray said:


> Yeah, but nowadays you can actually make a great sounding record at home and then sell it directly via the internet. We'll be seeing more and more of these kind of records in the near future as the technology progresses.



That's my current musical goal


----------



## PyramidSmasher

7 Strings of Hate said:


> like i said, they have to pay off things of course, but i'm willing to bet that MOST of the well known metal bands at least make 20000 grand a year or so.



20,000 Grand = $20,000,000 a year.

Not bad


----------



## Jakke

I could live with that..


----------



## sawtoothscream

I think one of guitarist from oh sleeper said they end up making about $30 per member a show and that has to go towards gas,food and hotels. something like that.


----------



## Jakke

I believe that if you are serious about making money playing music (I'd love to, but I'm also getting a career which is not music, I also don't play metal), I think you need to drop the elistism. What I have seen myself is that idealists don't last, being tr00 and kvlt might get you some extra cred on an online forum and among your 5-10 fans, but that does not translate in money for food and gear.

What needs to be done is to be seen everywhere, if you can edge in on any sort of social gathering or get any opportunity to advertise your band, do it. It won't get you popular with the other kvlt bands around, but they won't pay your bills for being grIm, right?
There is a huge societal pressure in the metal world against "selling out", bands that has done so are quickly denounced by most of the others (although, the metric for "selling out" is very much according to a sliding scale, which is strange..), but we need to stop seeing music as this sacred calling above all material interests. This is also something that has come recently, since rock and metal bands some 10-15 years ago had no problem being visible in mainstream culture.

See it for what it is instead: a trade where some has inherited some talent, and one that takes several years to actually get good at (which many people stealing music today tends to forget). Start seeing a band as a business, which it also is. 

We need to start to acknowledging that it is okay to make money of music, as long as we have idealists spreading the myth of the un-priceable music we will have assholes taking our recordings for free (while having the guts to say to us that it's their "right") and asshole promotors daylight-robbing us.


----------



## Jazzamatazz

God I hate Pop's, I miss the Creepy Crawl




7 Strings of Hate said:


> ok, so the venue at my place around here is pops. everybody and their brother comes through. most charge about 20 bucks a ticket. lets say that they only get 3 bucks a ticket out of the 20, multiply that by 2000 people, thats 6000 grand. not to mention tee shirts, cd.. ect.
> now of course they have to pay for the tour and i suppose the record label to pay for the cd they recorded. multiply the 6000 by 50 shows or so and thats 300000 grand. like i said, they have to pay off things of course, but i'm willing to bet that MOST of the well known metal bands at least make 20000 grand a year or so.
> The reason i say that real bands woudnt do this for nothing is that these days you can make a shit ton of money giving lessons and things like that, not to mention that you can pretty much record a professional quality cd for next to nothing today in the privacy of your own home.
> 
> once again, i might be wrong, but i honostly cant see how a. a well known metal act could make the few hundred bucks some are claiming, and b. why a multimillion/billion dollar a year record label would even bother if they barley made their money back


----------



## sawtoothscream

Ok after watching some bring me the horzion I stumbled across some vid of ollies house. After a little google it said his net worth is 1.3 million dollars. Said its all from the band which sounds crazy to me.


----------



## groovemasta

He has a clothing line and other things but yea I don't know.


----------



## abandonist

Any of you have a friend that insists he's an actor and is super annoying?

You're the same as him when you talk about your life being music.

Making your entire living through music is a ridiculous notion.


----------



## Fat-Elf

I don't know if this has been posted but these scene bands seem to make a decent amount of money.

If I would ever be as lucky to even play in a real band I would be really happy if I could even pay my bills and buy some food with it. I don't want to live in a mansion with 15 sport cars on the front yard.

Edit: Just found some website that says Alexi Laiho is worth of $6 millions. Even though he lives in LA that still sounds way too much.


----------



## zuzek

As far as I know, Monsieur Sykes is known to be a rich man's kid that has had pretty much everything funded for him. Ergo, he doesn't qualify for this discussion.


----------



## sawtoothscream

zuzek said:


> As far as I know, Monsieur Sykes is known to be a rich man's kid that has had pretty much everything funded for him. Ergo, he doesn't qualify for this discussion.



Now that makes more sense lol. I like there music but I just cant see them making over a million when better bands dont make that


----------



## HaloHat

I can't read all 16+ pages before posting, went through about 5. So...

I work with someone who is in a locally and industry well know band that is now far past its prime. He writes jingles for TV programs and commercials. He does this with someone that I am absolutely sure every one of you has heard of. Multiple Gold selling artist/Band. One never has to work again and the other, well he works with me ha. The difference - "The Hit". One good hit song and you have enough income for life to keep a roof over your head and eat. Have a Number 1 hit and set for life the same, maybe even better than that. It is so different now days. I am proud to say I have always paid for what I downloaded. If you think it does not hurt bands/people when you take without paying, you are wrong. The guy I work with makes about $2k-$3k per month, mostly all from the little piece he gets each time a commercial or TV show plays his and the other guys work and the small [talking about .20 cents] each time a radio station plays one of their songs. But it adds up.

If you hear a band getting a lot of air play and for a good run, they are making some cash. Owning the publishing rights if possible. Back in the day we had relatively few options in shows and bands. We were fed the "hits" and told who was great in many instances. Now, the net. A flood of bands and shows. You have opportunities people in the past did not [recording, producing, marketing etc] and yet so do a zillion other people. Spend/invest what you make wisley, try and make as few enemies as possible, good luck. btw, I grew up with [in North Hollywood] the son of one of the all time most prolific players in history. Unless you play this instrument and are deep into the history of its players or the music of the 60's-80's and who made it, you would likely NOT know this persons name. A studio hired gun. Thee studio hired gun of his time. His homes walls are literley covered with gold records from the artists he played for and he also "discovered" a band you all know or have heard of [long ago remember]. Let me assure you he is wealthy by anybodys standards. So, who is to say you can't be too. He almost gave up at one point then poof - right place right time right style and the rest is history. Be fun to be around... but remember it is a multi million/billion dollar business.


----------



## Jakke

HaloHat said:


> I work with someone who is in a locally and industry well know band that is now far past its prime. He writes jingles for TV programs and commercials. *He does this with someone that I am absolutely sure every one of you has heard of.*



...Charlie Harper?


----------



## DanakinSkywalker

Fat-Elf said:


> I don't know if this has been posted but these scene bands seem to make a decent amount of money.
> 
> If I would ever be as lucky to even play in a real band I would be really happy if I could even pay my bills and buy some food with it. I don't want to live in a mansion with 15 sport cars on the front yard.
> 
> Edit: Just found some website that says Alexi Laiho is worth of $6 millions. Even though he lives in LA that still sounds way too much.




By the way, he later said on his Tumblr that that was not his house, and he just used it jokingly for an MTV 'cribs' spoof.


----------



## DLG

yeah, that house is probably worth that entire networth of 1.5 mill


----------



## Felvin

A suggestion to raise the merchandise income: SELL 2-3XL shirts! 

The only reason I don't buy metal shirts at shows is because I don't want to look like a stuffed sausage. I'd gladly buy 2-4 shirts per show if they would only fit. 

There are thousands of fat guys who either cause eyecancer or just don't buy metal shirts. Win new customers and/or make the world more eye-friendly. 

Please.


----------



## Ibanezsam4

i think the main reason you see so many bands today that make shit money (any genre not just metal) is because bands lack a business sense. 

speaking from personal experience from knowing a few people who have tried making it, they are totally into the art and exhibit component (music and shows) of their band, yet completely ignorant when it comes to expanding their brand. 

great example, they continually play the same venues to the same group of fans every few weeks or so. i remember when my ignorant but lovable drummer friend was helping book gigs for his band they were seriously playing roughly to the same crowd every two weeks. i understand building up your base when you're starting out, but the frequency of playing makes no sense to me (then again going to see a band that uses the same setlist every show multiple times has always been a mystery to me as well). 

there's no incentive apparently to expand into other markets. i was watching a DEP video where Ben said he used to ship the band's tapes around to different bands and promoters in different cities and try and play as many new places as possible.. however this just doesn't exist where i live. 

also there's no concept of protecting your brand's integrity. what i mean here is that the same drummer friend for whatever reason is obsessed with joining christ-core bands. yet he drinks and smokes the ganja... not bad habits in my eyes at all, but if you're trying to sell the image of moshing for jesus why would a christian label sign you if your facebook and twitter is filled with pictures of you being drunk off your ass? 

i think a lot of people who try and start bands to "go somewhere" do this not realizing that when you promote your band (gonna come up with a really good scene name here) To Breach the Blessed Skyline (money) that they are really promoting a brand, and their single they just recorded "Someone Call AAA cuz There's Gonna be a Breakdown" is a product. this doesn't take the art out of it, in fact from a business stance if you put your heart and soul into music you are simply trying to put out the best product possible. 

idk.. too many kids trying to get out of working for a living a guess...


----------



## N1h1l1ty

My perspective, at least from Toronto's metal scene:

Our "local" scene consists heavily of either awful deathcore or crabcore/metalcore that tries way too hard to be the next most hXc thing possible. It doesn't help that the crowd usually consists 50% of girls too drunk/stoned to know what the fuck is going on and 50% of dudes ready to spin kick those poor witless girls.

Sure, there are a couple of GTA / South Ontario bands that have really gotten noticed and have things going for them (Counterparts, Structures, and obviously Protest), but its unfortunate that, at least from what I've seen, there's fairly little interest in decent music, and in decent platforms for that music. Having talked to a friend of mine that has run a booking business with his girlfriend, Toronto has some seriously prohibitive venue and licensing costs compared to many, say, Montreal venues.

Hell even many fairly popular talented pop punk / hardcore bands around here have folded because there just isn't interest in what they're playing.

Finally, the actual cost to build a tour is getting increasingly more prohibitive and with a lack of interest in local acts, it just seems like a vicious cycle.

/rant


----------



## Andromalia

Don't forget that there are other ways than playing and touring to make money. Writing songs for others can be a decent source of income, too. Lemmy stated someplace that he made more money off the few songs he wrote for Ozzy than ALL of his motorhead career.
Ozzy is, strictly speaking, just an intepreter. He didn't write a single lyric in his life. People who write the pop songs for Justin Bieber and his ilk can make a living out of it while never recording anything under their name.


----------



## Jake

I have a friend in a pretty well established metal band who actually managed to make a decent amount of money on the Mayhem tour over this past summer but it's still not enough to live off of, pay bills and other things like that. Unless you have radio hits and sell a shitload of merch and tour constantly it's not enough


----------



## ncfiala

liamh said:


> Well, i always thought that no-one who was true to their music gave a fuck about illegal downloading, but now that i know how much they earn, it kinda puts me off.


 
Seriously? You honestly thought that someone who was "true to their music" (whatever the fuck that means) likes to get stolen from? Nobody likes to be stolen from, especially someone who put their blood, sweat, and tears into what is being stolen.

But back to the topic at hand, none of this is a surprise to me. I'm sure most of the bands I listen to don't make shit and that's a shame.


----------



## bigredmetfan

I think that a lot of young bands/musicians do
Make a mistake of signing to a label early in there career just for the fact of having money behind you to make a record and tour etc.... 

It has taken me a long time to realize this. If you understand running a business, you will have a better perspective in running a band (especially if you want to make a living out of it)

For example: Exhaust all your options before signing the dotted line for money

Think of going to a bank for a line of credit (1000000% of the time there will be a better interest rate then ANY label) if you need funding for your band.

Lars Ulrich is a genius.....he sucks at drumming compared to most drummers, but sure as hell knows how to market a metal band......It ALL comes down to marketing in the industry
Metallica waited till everyone came to them with a decent deal that would benifit them....patience helps too!!


----------



## abandonist

It makes me so sad to see kids talking about music as a business.

Where's your anger, rage, and sex? 

Just do it because you need to.


----------



## Rick

abandonist said:


> It makes me so sad to see kids talking about music as a business.
> 
> Where's your anger, rage, and sex?
> 
> Just do it because you need to.



If you don't treat it as a business, you won't be around very long. Income has to come from somewhere.


----------



## abandonist

Usually from an actual job.

Playing music is wish fulfillment.


----------



## _MonSTeR_

I recall reading when Randy from Lamb of God had to post bail it was set for roughly $200,000 which was mentioned to be his annual income.


----------



## bigredmetfan

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I recall reading when Randy from Lamb of God had to post bail it was set for roughly $200,000 which was mentioned to be his annual income.



Yes I read that too.

If you want to make money you have to work your butt off and it might payoff in the end. Espeacially if you create music that know one has heard before (like Lamb Of God was a pretty huge movement in music, same with a band like Killswitch.)


----------



## xFallen

More than I make and that's all that matters honestly xD


----------



## Ibanezsam4

abandonist said:


> It makes me so sad to see kids talking about music as a business.
> 
> Where's your anger, rage, and sex?
> 
> Just do it because you need to.



got some last night.... however 

if music is your hobby, more power to you. hobbies my definition are done for your well being and not to make money (sometimes). 
however i was referring to bands who want to be signed and play music for a career in a touring band and they treat it the same way the hobbyists do. if you want to be a signed act you should be thinking of what you do as a business, and managing your shit correctly. 

to people who think that impairs your artistic merit, that is just pure BS. unless your art makes a point of trying to turn off as many people as possible then you can in fact market it. 

as for the anger and rage? if your music calls for it, then tapping into your artistic self to deliver that is simply making a quality product from a business perspective.


----------



## abandonist

Boo


----------



## xFallen

abandonist said:


> Boo



Why boo? o.o


----------



## abandonist

I think I just come from an entirely different head-space and place than most of y'all.


----------



## shaggy10930

If your songs are great, not just one, but if you can make several good songs, there is a chance you can make some money. I am not in a band, but I love metal, and a lot of new bands I listen too are not very impressive. Some songs catch my attention but after a few seconds they become boring or repetitive and I can't listen anymore. To me there is a better chance to make it if you play a style of music like that of Maiden or Priest or Sabbath. Underground metal is called that for a reason. Yes I know that even extreme metal bands should be able to make a semi-decent living, they deserve it, but the industry is plagued with greedy bastards who know nothing about real music. Music to them is another product like toys or cell phones. I don't care about style, looks, image, reputation, how cool you are, if the songs are good there is a chance to make it. My favorite styles are thrash metal and classic heavy metal, and I can see those are the bands making the most money (not all though) I could be wrong but that is how I feel about the metal scene. I apologize for the long post and the bad english


----------



## Korbain

There's a really interesting documentary thats meant to be coming out (not sure when) that goes into this sorta stuff, what its like to be in a band and trying to make a living off it, why they do it, the consequences, etc. 

Everyone has the dream of making it big, this documentary sorta shows the reality of it. Has interviews with heaps of band members, including some peter steele (the last interviews he ever did), etc. in how it is slaving your ass off, getting a bit of fame and how hard it is to make a dollar doing it.


----------



## Estilo

Bump for sticky! Seriously there's too much valuable information on here to let this tread sink in the abyss of unupdated threads on SSO. 

BTW, in reference to the general consensus on this thread regarding the lives of metal musicians, these guys seem to have pretty cool living quarters though.


----------



## Estilo

And BTW, didn't Bulb post pics of his 4 door M3 in the Cars thread  ?


----------



## canuck brian

Frank Mullen isn't touring with Suffocation because he won't put his full time job on the line to do it. He goes as far to say that guys in the genre don't make a lot of money. 

Sucks, but when you're already dealing with limited appeal, you're just not going to make wads of money.


----------



## danicide

I believe it's not the fault of the bands/musicians, or the industry in general, but the outdated monetary system that leads the uneducated into traps for those looking to profit upon the ignorance.


The music business is a cruel and shallow money 
trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and 
pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. 
There's also a negative side.

&#8213; Hunter S. Thompson


----------



## Demiurge

danicide said:


> I believe it's not the fault of the bands/musicians, or the industry in general, but the outdated monetary system that leads the uneducated into traps for those looking to profit upon the ignorance.



I'd tend to think that the model of selling a niche product to limited audience in a time where people don't like paying for stuff 'spells doom' in a manner that transcends monetary systems.


----------



## Jakke

Demiurge said:


> I'd tend to think that the model of selling a niche product to limited audience in a time where people don't like paying for stuff 'spells doom' in a manner that transcends monetary systems.



I could sell toilet paper laced with itching powder geared towards a masochist audience, but I don't think it'll be the monetary system's fault when I go bankrupt.


----------



## shawnt3

I think it has been well established that metal bands don't make diddly squat. I think aspiring touring musicians should look at touring/getting signed/making albums as a "Life Vacation". Do it for a couple years, then get your shit together. I have finished my Bachelors Degree at Uni and have a bunch of work experience already...I like to think I have made a decent enough foundation for myself for when I am finished with the dream of touring. Do NOT leave yourself empty handed because music is simply not a reliable source for money. Work your shitty job, SAVE a bunch of money so that you have it while on tour, and forever live with the satisfaction that you were able to have the opportunity to tour. Definitely go for the dream, but just make sure you are safe financially!!


----------



## RevDrucifer

I get the idea that some of these younger bands have some financial backing from family/trust funds, which is awesome that they have that to back them up, but when ya see people in their early 20's driving BMW's and living in houses that cost easily $2K+ a month to rent, don't think all that money is coming in from their music.

I think there's a group of 28-32 years old who probably feel a bit cheated. There was a still a music business when we were finishing high school, there was still rock radio, MTV still played videos, (mostly shitty ones, but there was still some rock/metal here and there). It didn't seem as illogical at the time to pursue a career in music. 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who was anxiously awaiting to finish school, pack their shit in a van and just go for it, only to find that when we got there, the well had been dried up. 

Once Napster hit, everything changed. Regardless of one's stance of right/wrong, when it comes down to it, downloading crippled the music business and rather quickly. A lot of friends/acquaintances were getting dropped by labels like flies, others who had deals in the works were back to square one. 

Look at the kind of 'deals' that are offered these days. Distribution and promotion and that's about it. No more funding for recording, no more tour support, no more videos, no more, "Hey A&R guy, our bus broke down, can ya get the label to send us some cash?"........, it's been years since I've met an actual A&R guy, do they even exist anymore? Ya think a label is going to hook you up with a road crew, tour manager, merch guy, or ANY of that shit anymore? 

It's been said already, but if you really want to pursue music for you're livelihood, thoroughly understand WHY you want to do it so you're not shitting in one hand and wishing in the other. 

I'm sure there are plenty out there that want to do the 'rockstar' thing, bang a bunch of chicks, get wasted, be famous and make a ton of money......well, you can do that without doing anything musical at all, just turn on the TV, there's plenty of people doing that already. Some are even called musicians.

And 'the love of music' is not enough of a reason to follow through with it, unless you find out what you love about music. Is it creating it, or performing it? Cuz ya can't create too much driving a van 500 miles to the next gig, where you're going to play songs you already created...and creativity's biggest enemy is repetition. Touring is a rinse and repeat situation over and over....

At 30, I still want to be a professional musician, but my focus is very different now. I just want to cover my bills and be able to buy gear, maybe a vacation here and there and not have to clock in to a shift and have a manager tell me what to do. 

I love creating more than performing, but I still enjoy and get a rush out of a performance, even if it's me playing "Down In A Hole" by Alice In Chains for the 9,998th time at a bar to 3 people. 

It also sucks that right at the age you're able to go off and do what ya want, you need to start making major life decisions and there's always lots of outside influences pushing you in one way or the other.

Just try to realize WHY you want to do this and do your best to analyze every bit of it before jumping in. Though, sometimes ya just gotta go with the flow and see what happens.


----------



## abandonist

RevDrucifer said:


> stuff



Were you in Deadstar?


----------



## RevDrucifer

abandonist said:


> Were you in Deadstar?



Assembly? Nope, but my former band, Five Sins Ago, played with them I think opening for King Diamond or the Genitorturers, probably 04-05'. 

They're still doing their thing last I heard, been at it for a while.


----------



## Kullerbytta

Bump.

So... If you love music and your dream is to perform at big stages and touch people with your music (.... the money) _and_ you have a family to help support... Basically the supporting-aspect outweigh the dream.

Busting my ass on a part/full-time job and a music career that means I'll basically never be home doesn't sound like a good deal to me, no matter how much I want it. 

With a grand total of 44 followers on soundcloud (of which I think 1 or 2 actually listens) and the facts above I'm really tempted to drop the whole thing about playing. What makes me feel good about playing guitar and uploading songs is that there's a chance I'll see a new follower sometime and feel that what I'm doing (one of my only talents) is appreciated... 
Right now I'm _really_ a nobody. 1000 listens in 2 years on SC and the metal scene being what I've read here... What's left for me in the music world?

Would you think of me as a weak person for giving up, given the facts? 

I'm not whining about my music not being more popular, even though it seems like that's exactly what I'm saying... I'm just thinking that if everything I do is never discovered by anyone is there really a point? 


Wow... I sound so depressed  
Kind of am though... Music really is the only talent I've got. 
Reality is pretty darn harsh!


----------



## MemphisHawk

I have been playing in bands that went out and played shows for 13 years now. Rock type stuff, nothing super metal, but in all 13 years the only thing I remember is a guitarist saying "The longer your line of preparedness, the greater the chance it will intersect with opprtunity." Fast forward to 2 weeks ago and Steel Panther reviewed one of my songs on their youtube channel.

I have had 22 facebook likes and 3 soundcloud followers for years and my mom is the only one who bought my stuff on iTunes in 5 years, then all of a sudden BOOM. People just come out of the woodwork. I will admit , I was not as prepared as I could have been. I have 4-5 songs I didn't want to pay to have mastered that I am kicking myself for not having available when Steel Panther did the review. All of a sudden though, people are finding me and maybe one of them will be somebody who wants to sit down and hear more of my stuff. maybe not. 

When I was 15, I wanted to be famous, now I just want some 15 year old with a rep to buy my song so I can have time to do whatever I want. screw touring forever and having 10 minutes a day to yourself for next to nothing in return .. UNLESS that's what you enjoy, I don't. I have a job that pays very well and I still have time to play around pursuing music in my own way. 

Don't get caught up thinking that "making it big" is the only thing that matters. Pretty soon you won't care.


----------



## Demiurge

There is a point if you like making music and sharing it.

The idea of "making it" in the industry with piles of money and legions of fans is ambitious, but is becoming less and less possible.

It becomes a damn shame if our love of music becomes contingent on our ability to monetize it.

EDIT: Was responding to Kullerbytta.


----------



## The Omega Cluster

If you want to make music, don't look at the money you'll make, because it won't happen.


----------



## Mprinsje

Kullerbytta said:


> Bump.
> 
> lots of text....



you just got to make music for yourself man. I have about the same amount of followers as you on SC and i know it's not much but why care? i make the music for myself and as long as i like it i'll do it, don't care how much people listen to it. 

I've performed a couple of times with my band for audiences of 10 people and i still like it. I know it's never going to be popular and that i never will able to make money off of it (nor do i want to, but that's something different) but it's still highly enjoyable to me.

Don't give up man, make the music you like, just for yourself.


----------



## abandonist

If your rubric of success is based on other people being into your art you should have stopped a long time ago. 

It has to be for yourself first.


----------



## NickB11

Estilo said:


> And BTW, didn't Bulb post pics of his 4 door M3 in the Cars thread  ?



^This lol...also I saw Tosin posted pictures of his new Porsche Cayman on Instagram (looked awesome) - so these dudes are doing something right! I'm sure their income doesn't just strictly come from one source (i.e. album sales), but from working their asses off by giving lessons, producing, merch, etc....its a variety of factors and they seem to manage their brands very well. At the end of the day its going to come down to business skills and sense, and unfortunately some people just don't have that.


----------



## sakeido

Biggest band from Calgary's scene right now, lead singer has a super rich family that is investing money in her career. Has opened a lot of doors for them. Easiest way to make money playing music - have money first.


----------



## Carvinkook

It all for.the love of the game! If you work hard and are lucky?.. you might make some.money?
.


----------



## Kullerbytta

Demiurge said:


> There is a point if you like making music and sharing it.
> 
> The idea of "making it" in the industry with piles of money and legions of fans is ambitious, but is becoming less and less possible.
> 
> It becomes a damn shame if our love of music becomes contingent on our ability to monetize it.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Was responding to Kullerbytta.



I'm aware of that, that's why I wrote *'... the money'* in my post. I don't really care for making a pissload o' money from music, but I was shocked to see that seemingly very popular, 'big' new bands barely makes a living out of it. What I meant to say in my post was that if I make about as much from shows, album sales and stuff like that, hell, even less maybe, as I do in my day job I'd rather keep my day job so that I can spend my free time with my fiancee and our daughter.

Now that I think of it... I wouldn't want all o' that 'fame', touring and stuff... At least not now that I have my daughter to focus on. I guess I just had a minor case o' the blues yesterday when I found out about the situation with the metal industry. It's not something I _can_ pursue at the moment and I guess the thought of that made me bitter because I love music.



The Omega Cluster said:


> If you want to make music, don't look at the money you'll make, because it won't happen.



I said I din't care for the money 



Mprinsje said:


> you just got to make music for yourself man. I have about the same amount of followers as you on SC and i know it's not much but why care? i make the music for myself and as long as i like it i'll do it, don't care how much people listen to it.
> 
> Don't give up man, make the music you like, just for yourself.



I definitely see your point and that totally makes sense to me... But I'm having such a hard time to just keep my music to myself. 
I guess it's because I have inferiority complex... Pretty much all of my friends are hot-shot physicists and stuff and I'm nothing but a dim-witted musician (not implying musicians are dim-witted, just saying I am), and not even a mediocre one (honesty, not modesty).
So I guess I'm something of an attentionwhore. I want non-'educated' people to listen to my songs and be all like 'Whoa, you did that?' or just like my music. I want that confirmation because it makes me feel better about myself. 
And the songs... Well, I already write the songs for myself. Pretty much all of my songs are just me channeling my emotions onto record. Mostly sad, angry or bittersweet feelings and making music when I'm feeling like that is my way of processing the feelings. So you're right. Giving up on music would be stupid. 

Now I've hi-jacked the thread with my personal misery and dissatisfaction so I'll leave it at this.

I actually see things in a significantly lighter manner now, so thanks for the replies.


----------



## meteor685

damn what a depressing thread....ya its annoying that mehh musicians make the money, but the really great ones dont..

Im pretty sure DT makes some cash though.


----------



## Thanatopsis

elrrek said:


> Any member of Iron Maiden makes shed loads of money, loads off touring and merchandise licensing, probably a fair bit off record sales as well seeing as they are one of the biggest bands in the world so we are talking $100,000s a year I guess.


Nevermind a year, the guys in Maiden make upwards of a few hundred grand a night when touring. Check out Maiden England World Tour - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and look at the gross revenue for each date. The Solna, Sweden date was the biggest and brought in over $5 million, and that's just ticket sales. Then when you take into account merchandise. You know they sell a shitload of shirts. My guess is that particular night they probably made an easy half million apeice. Even that much would be just over half(I'm guessing, I have no real knowledge of what percentage of that the band see) the ticket revenue split amongst the band, nevermind the merchandise money.

I'm sure they're one of the top money makers as far as metal goes.

edit: After I posted this, I did a little research and found this http://www.metalinjection.net/lates...icas-james-hetfield-and-guns-n-roses-axl-rose. According to that Bruce Dickinson is worth $115 million.


----------



## Given To Fly

A band I've always been impressed with is Tool. They can go on tour whenever they want and sell out arenas in less than a minute. In the world of marketing, social media, networking, etc., they should not be able to pull this off, but they do! I have no idea how much money they make but Maynard has a vineyard in Northern Arizona so he is not hurting for money by any means. (From what I understand, vineyards are "money pits.")


----------



## Thanatopsis

Given To Fly said:


> A band I've always been impressed with is Tool. They can go on tour whenever they want and sell out arenas in less than a minute. In the world of marketing, social media, networking, etc., they should not be able to pull this off, but they do! I have no idea how much money they make but Maynard has a vineyard in Northern Arizona so he is not hurting for money by any means. (From what I understand, vineyards are "money pits.")


Yeah, I've never seen anyone sell out as fast as them. When Lateralus came out and they played in Detroit, Chicago, New York, and Atlanta before going to Europe, I was second in line and myself, the dude in front of me, and my friend behind me got tickets and by then they were already sold out.

As far as the winery goes, I would think he doesn't do too bad considering the prices for them. I used to live in Sedona about a 10 minute drive from the winery and there were some varieties that were going for $90 a bottle. I'm not a oenophile but I would imagine it doesn't cost much more to produce a $90 bottle vs a $10 one so the profit margins are probably pretty good.


----------



## cGoEcYk

If the singers/primary writers from just about all the metal bands that I like don't make any money, I wonder how much the bassist makes? 



Thanatopsis said:


> As far as the winery goes


I have a theory that is why they went on that last tour a few years ago. Costs a lot to run a winey. I think in that documentary he said you could sink millions into it like nothing.


----------



## Glosni

Thanatopsis said:


> As far as the winery goes, I would think he doesn't do too bad considering the prices for them. I used to live in Sedona about a 10 minute drive from the winery and there were some varieties that were going for $90 a bottle. I'm not a oenophile but I would imagine it doesn't cost much more to produce a $90 bottle vs a $10 one so the profit margins are probably pretty good.



He said on the Joe Rogan Podcast something about opening a vineyard is like digging a hole costing something like 100k, planting the seeds and stuff and not knowing if the wine is going to be any good / if its going to be profitable. I'm not sure, but I think he also said that it didn't work on his first try and he lost a lot of money. Still a badass dude.  Making wine.


----------



## brutalwizard

Harsh Reality: DEVIN TOWNSEND's Reveals His Monthly Salary And It's Not A Lot - Metal Injection

a bit of a necro, but this thread is timeless.


----------



## bensjjjammin

Periphery is probably my favorite metal band right now, im sure they are barely making a living probably, but they are amazing. But what about being in a NON metal band?? I heard country makes alot, but meh i think some country mixed with Rock is ok for me only because of the rock. I cant really play songs that are too slow. My question is, is being in a Rock, maybe even Pop Rock band alot easier to sustain a living off of??


----------



## leftyguitarjoe

bensjjjammin said:


> Periphery is probably my favorite metal band right now, im sure they are barely making a living probably, but they are amazing. But what about being in a NON metal band?? I heard country makes alot, but meh i think some country mixed with Rock is ok for me only because of the rock. I cant really play songs that are too slow. My question is, is being in a Rock, maybe even Pop Rock band alot easier to sustain a living off of??



They make decent money. Alpha and Omega sold like crazy and they make decent guarantees when they play shows.


----------



## brutalwizard

Bumping this thread. Lot of people seem to forget the timeless info shared in this 15+ pages of gold.


----------



## SwingMachine

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if this has already been brought up. I think a big mistake a lot of bands/band members make is thinking playing in your band will be the only source of income you need. I remember reading somewhere that wealthy people usually have around 5-7 sources of income. As much hate as he gets, Fronz from Attila is a great example of this. Also Adam D. from KSE. An example outside of music would be Shaq. He made a ton in the NBA but now owns car washes, restaurants, has a brand of shoe etc.


----------



## bulb

leftyguitarjoe said:


> They make decent money. Alpha and Omega sold like crazy and they make decent guarantees when they play shows.



I really need to clear up this misconception.

The money Periphery makes is laughable, even today. We may gross a lot, but at the end of the day, after we cover expenses, everyone who works for us has been paid out, after we cover our taxes there isn't much left for the members. 

It's a passion project, and it's something we do for the love, none of us would have the quality of life we have if we relied on Periphery to get by. We all have all sorts of different sources of income outside of the band, and that's how we actually make a living for ourselves. 

Keep in mind, now with streaming in the equation, most bands make less than ever, and not just with the obvious tradeoff of streams paying out a fraction of what an album sale does.

Since barely any money is made from albums anymore, most bands counter this by touring more. Touring more saturates the market, and keep in mind a lot of a touring band's income is the merch they sell on the road. With the saturated market, there is now less money to go around to buy merch, so a lot of bands are seeing guarantees and merch numbers stagnate or in some cases regress. This is why you are seeing a lot of bands or members call it quits, and why you will likely continue to see a lot of bands call it quits, especially as their members get older and start to want some stability in their life.

Someone mentioned Fronz from Attila. As much hate as I see that dude get on here, Fronz is one hell of a brilliant businessman, he knows exactly what he is doing and is very smart about his moves, and that is why he does EXTREMELY well for himself. He gets it, and will have no trouble being in a band for as long as he desires.

I'm not telling you guys this not bitch or complain about anything, because honestly I have a very good life and I knew what I was getting into. But I knew how to manage my expectations because they were based on real expectations. If you think musical talent has anything to do with success in this industry, you are doing to be sorely disappointed. 

The only way to see success in this industry is to treat it like the business that is is, and work hard at that side in tandem with working hard on your band.

tl;dr be in a band for the love, cuz you probably aren't gonna make .... for money


----------



## WishIwasfinnish

Thanks for the honest information man, it's good to be realistic. You guys should have the money to live extremely well just doing what you're doing, but the world works they way it does in the end, and although you "should", that's just an opinion at the end of the day. If only you could get an endorsement from GE for a signature lightbulb, that could bring in some serious dough


----------



## SwingMachine

bulb said:


> Someone mentioned Fronz from Attila. As much hate as I see that dude get on here, Fronz is one hell of a brilliant businessman, he knows exactly what he is doing and is very smart about his moves, and that is why he does EXTREMELY well for himself. He gets it, and will have no trouble being in a band for as long as he desires.



+1. I only brought him up because I've read a little of how he operates business wise. He's a genius with everything he's got his hands in. 

Bulb, if you wouldn't mind answering a question. You mentioned you have other sources of income, could you loosely elaborate on those without getting too personal? How many of them are actually music related? I think at one point you were doing mixing and mastering? Just curious.


----------



## bulb

SwingMachine said:


> +1. I only brought him up because I've read a little of how he operates business wise. He's a genius with everything he's got his hands in.
> 
> Bulb, if you wouldn't mind answering a question. You mentioned you have other sources of income, could you loosely elaborate on those without getting too personal? How many of them are actually music related? I think at one point you were doing mixing and mastering? Just curious.



Fronz does a lot more stuff than I do and makes a lot more money than I do as a result!

For me, most of my income streams are music related, so they operate around Periphery and things like the signature gear is only viable because of Periphery and the way we have positioned ourselves. The same is true of clinics etc. If you work the sig gear/clinic angle well enough you can do pretty well off of that alone and don't just rely on one signature product and stay aware of product cycles etc. So it's good Periphery is around to keep those channels flowing, but Periphery doesn't have to succumb to any pressure to try to be the next radio rock sensation that everyone tries to sell every band on.

I don't do mixing or mastering or producing anymore, I don't really enjoy it and there are people who are much better than I am at it, it's also not worth the time, money or stress for me. I do get odd commissions here and there to compose which is fun, and those always help with income. And of course doing things like Haunted Shores is great because there is no label taking a cut and we do everything ourselves so that's a bit of pocket money.

I plan on doing more sort of collaborations for fun, and those should generate a bit of income here and there, though once again, that's not really the goal with that stuff at all, so it's not income I'm counting on. This is why I haven't been in much of a rush to do the solo album, although that would probably be a nice little cash injection, I want it to be something I do for fun, not for work.


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