# New Kiesel Models 2017



## dmlinger (Jan 12, 2017)

Searched and couldn't find anyone talking about this yet. Jeff is doing the same "one square" reveal as he did with the Vader. Not much to look at so far...looks to be a 6 and 7 string version so far. The 6 version is part of the reveal below...

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## jephjacques (Jan 12, 2017)

one giant bevel


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## dmlinger (Jan 12, 2017)

Another reveal. Looks like the lower horn on the Vanquish bass.


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## cardinal (Jan 12, 2017)

I won't let myself get excited. Pretty sure that whatever it is will be almost cool looking but somehow not quite there, like all the Carvin shapes IMHO.


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## schwiz (Jan 12, 2017)

Intrigued to see where he goes with this one. I really wanted a K-series, but couldn't afford one, so I settled for an AM7 (which I love). I'd love to see a cross between the K-series and the DCM7 in terms of body shape goes.


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## Zado (Jan 12, 2017)

Stevexc is required here


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## kevdes93 (Jan 12, 2017)

I'm sure it'll be as polarizing as ever.
Kinda lame/silly they're doing the same "reveal one piece of the puzzle per day" thing as they did with the vader  either just unveil it at NAMM or just do the whole thing at once.


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## Hollowway (Jan 12, 2017)

cardinal said:


> I won't let myself get excited. Pretty sure that whatever it is will be almost cool looking but somehow not quite there, like all the Carvin shapes IMHO.



Agreed. I love Carvin/Kiesel, and I think their quality is really good, but the shapes are never as cool as other brands. If they had something like Skervesen, XEN, Strindberg, Padalka, or any of the smaller shops I'd be ordering one a month.


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## technomancer (Jan 12, 2017)

Stupidest marketing gimmick ever...

Guessing the discontinued 300 series with optional bevels as a new model so Jeff doesn't have to put Carvin logos on them anymore.


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## arasys (Jan 12, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Stupidest marketing gimmick ever...



I agree.

I would have been excited if ESP was bringing original series guitars for NA market or Jackson revealing something like Marty Friedman Kelly signature and did something like this for a day or two to build some hype right before NAMM, but.. Carvin's shapes are somewhat lackluster to me. Tried to like them for years but "meh.." is the only feeling I get...

I hope Carvin fans like new models. 



jephjacques said:


> one giant bevel


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## xwmucradiox (Jan 12, 2017)

Those strings look big. Maybe they're finally doing real baritones?

Edit: Prob not. Just compared this image to earlier images they've done like this in Photoshop and the scale length is probably the same as the rest of their standard instruments.


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## cardinal (Jan 12, 2017)

Zado said:


> Stevexc is required here



TRUTH.


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## xzacx (Jan 12, 2017)

The way the bottom horn almost sweeps away kinda reminds me of a Vik. Based on past design influences they've used, it wouldn't be shocking to see a take on that.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 12, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Stupidest marketing gimmick ever...



Dumb inlay as well. 

I can deal with ESP's 12th fret inlay, or Schecter's gaudy-ass crosses... But the off-center K just ....ing bugs me.


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## dmlinger (Jan 12, 2017)

I definitely appreciate Kiesel's bang-for-your buck, but I also feel like a lot of their designs are slightly "off" which has kept me from ordering one. Cautiously optimistic for this model. 

Wouldn't mind seeing a single cut bolt neck.


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## Erockomania (Jan 12, 2017)

It will be almost cool. He'll screw the shape up, no doubt.


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## splinter8451 (Jan 12, 2017)

That K is a little uhhhh... Ugly for sure.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 12, 2017)

I hate how they're trying to drag this crap out. Just show me the ....ing guitar already


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## kuma (Jan 12, 2017)

Looks kinda like a Vanquish guitar. And as far back as the body is, and as far out as the lower horn seems, I'm wondering if it's a baritone guitar / short scale bass. Jeff did say it's something new for them, and there's not a lot of other ground they don't currently cover. A fully optionable 30" 6 string would be pretty cool.


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## technomancer (Jan 12, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Dumb inlay as well.
> 
> I can deal with ESP's 12th fret inlay, or Schecter's gaudy-ass crosses... But the off-center K just ....ing bugs me.



Yeah I didn't think it would be possible to surpass the "signature" sperm inlays, but the offset K does it.

I can't even say I'm hating on the brand, as I'm probably going to order a non-beveled Aries later this year, but damn can they screw up some guitars 

I'm also surprised how many people seem excited over this maybe being a Vanquish guitar as IMHO that design is just freaking hideous


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## BillCosby (Jan 12, 2017)

Joke's on you guys, the body is gonna be shaped like a K, too.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 12, 2017)

Too bad Warwick beat them to the letter guitar.







And ESP beast them to the logo guitar.


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## Science_Penguin (Jan 12, 2017)

Not feeling it so far... but, it is hard to judge based solely on the lower horn...

Why do they do this again?


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## Shask (Jan 12, 2017)




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## erdiablo666 (Jan 12, 2017)

stevexc is definitely required here

(double post sorry)


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## erdiablo666 (Jan 12, 2017)

Zado said:


> Stevexc is required here



stevexc is definitely required


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 12, 2017)

That is not the horn of a guitar i care about. Glad they eased my gas straight away at least. Really not a fan of this reveal nonsense. With the vader it was neat, but now it's just overdone. Unless it has some crazy cool feature we just can't see yet, I just lack hype.


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## Steinmetzify (Jan 12, 2017)

Just really moving right along with nothing I can even care about. Thanks for the GAS killer for the 17th year in a row, Carvin.


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## olejason (Jan 13, 2017)

The 'K' inlay probably means it will be another $3,000 Kiesel.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Jan 13, 2017)

It's there take on the Strandberg shape I'll betcha. Call it a bevealation that suddenly came to me.


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## stevexc (Jan 13, 2017)

Zado said:


> Stevexc is required here





cardinal said:


> TRUTH.





erdiablo666 said:


> stevexc is definitely required here
> 
> (double post sorry)





erdiablo666 said:


> stevexc is definitely required


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Jan 13, 2017)

The horn placement feels right, but needs more bevealed.


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## jerm (Jan 13, 2017)

haaha nice p-shop


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## jephjacques (Jan 13, 2017)

oh my god you glorious son of a bitch


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## DredFul (Jan 13, 2017)

Two pages deep this thread is already gold


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## Captain Butterscotch (Jan 13, 2017)

It is absolutely unacceptable for the "like" button to not be functioning right now. Stevexc, you fcking champion.


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## feraledge (Jan 13, 2017)

I hate this marketing game, but I love how Stevexc plays it. Well done, sir. Well done.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 13, 2017)

Isn't the k optional? Not worth complaining about since you can just get it without it.


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## oracles (Jan 13, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Isn't the k optional? Not worth complaining about since you can just get it without it.



Nope, last I heard it's mandatory.


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## kevdes93 (Jan 13, 2017)

I do not have high hopes for a decent looking model


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## mbardu (Jan 13, 2017)

kevdes93 said:


> I do not have high hopes for a decent looking model



Oh wtf now what are they doing to this poor top. 

Wasnt the Aries enough in top wood mutilation?


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## StrmRidr (Jan 13, 2017)

I'm having a hard time visualizing any decent shape out of what they unveiled so far.


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## coreysMonster (Jan 13, 2017)

This is some high-level Photoshopping here.


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## theicon2125 (Jan 13, 2017)

Looks like their Vanquish bass shape to me.


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## mbardu (Jan 13, 2017)

theicon2125 said:


> Looks like their Vanquish bass shape to me.



Definitely similar horns, pointing to a vanquish guitar. 

Plus now some high grade top wood molestation. 
Pickguard knaggs-like shape maybe?


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## kevdes93 (Jan 13, 2017)

theicon2125 said:


> Looks like their Vanquish bass shape to me.



Yeah a vanquish guitar is pretty much what I'm expecting.
God forbid they do something actually new and interesting


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## mbardu (Jan 13, 2017)

kevdes93 said:


> Yeah a vanquish guitar is pretty much what I'm expecting.
> God forbid they do something actually new and interesting



Well based on the latest pictures it _does look_ like they found a new and interesting ways to murder a top wood.


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## feraledge (Jan 13, 2017)

mbardu said:


> Well based on the latest pictures it _does look_ like they found a new and interesting ways to murder a top wood.



I always joked about a three-top, maybe this is it?
Abort mission.


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## mbardu (Jan 13, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I always joked about a three-top, maybe this is it?
> Abort mission.



Yeah three top! 

The way I see it, the Aries wasn't unique enough anymore with the two layers of wood and bevels that are now getting copycats, so theyre beveling EVEN MORE (MADNESS!!!) and are now going to have three large visible layers and even bigger BEVELS. I don't know why I'm SHOUTING. 

That or it's like those pizza with two different toppings sides. Half and half with an abrupt demarcation in the middle (I can't explain that upper horn and the top). And bevels of course. 

Or a Pickguard shape? 
Aaaaah this is madness.


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## Angelus (Jan 13, 2017)

cardinal said:


> I won't let myself get excited. Pretty sure that whatever it is will be almost cool looking but somehow not quite there, like all the Carvin shapes IMHO.



Coudn't agree more. I like carvin basses more


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## ncfiala (Jan 13, 2017)

Not interested. I hate all these bevels and losing huge portions of the top. Some will disagree but I don't think Jeff has the eye for guitar aesthetics. Seems like the kind of guy with bad tattoos and an affliction shirt.


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## stevexc (Jan 13, 2017)

ncfiala said:


> Not interested. I hate all these bevels and losing huge portions of the top. Some will disagree but I don't think Jeff has the eye for guitar aesthetics. Seems like the kind of guy with bad tattoos and an affliction shirt.


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## feraledge (Jan 13, 2017)

The official brand of Flavortown. Zero class.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 13, 2017)

stevexc said:


>



imgur is kill

I'm guessing it's going to look like the Majesty. Will have a Superstrat shape with a really, REALLY long top horn and a stubby bottom horn. 

AKA: Ugly.


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## dmlinger (Jan 13, 2017)

ncfiala said:


> Not interested. I hate all these bevels and losing huge portions of the top. Some will disagree but I don't think Jeff has the eye for guitar aesthetics. Seems like the kind of guy with bad tattoos and an affliction shirt.



This couldn't be more spot on. Today's reveal ruined it for me completely.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2017)

blech the vanquish is easily the ugliest bass they make. why the hell did they think it was a good idea to make it as a regular guitar >_>. I wish they'd made the b24 into a regular guitar because those look class.


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## You (Jan 13, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> blech the vanquish is easily the ugliest bass they make. why the hell did they think it was a good idea to make it as a regular guitar >_>. I wish they'd made the b24 into a regular guitar because those look class.


It appears similar to a Schecter Avenger guitar, but with the upper and lower horns pointing downwards instead of upwards.


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## laxu (Jan 13, 2017)

Yeah if it's a Vanquish guitar then not interested at all. I was even annoyed that they went with that body design for their first multiscale bass. It is just not that great looking.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2017)

You said:


> It appears similar to a Schecter Avenger guitar, but with the upper and lower horns pointing downwards instead of upwards.



I'd be ok with that, the world needs more avenger styled guitars imo. pretty much just schecter and Red Layer guitars doing them ;_;


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 13, 2017)

Siggi Braun as well.


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## cardinal (Jan 13, 2017)

^ and both of those look like upside down Mockingbirds. Neither really looks like the Carvin to me, though. 

Stevexc bringing the lols.


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## HaloHat (Jan 13, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Yeah I didn't think it would be possible to surpass the "signature" sperm inlays, but the offset K does it.



  

It is not a V or Explorer type so IDGAF. And even if it was, it wouldn't have a 27" scale option. So again, IDGAF


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## sloanthebone (Jan 14, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Siggi Braun as well.



Thats a cool looking guitar.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 14, 2017)

oracles said:


> Nope, last I heard it's mandatory.



Fvcking ew.


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## Dabo Fett (Jan 14, 2017)

I think a vanquish guitar could be pretty cool, but it would have to be all out to do it right, I.e 7-8 string, fan fret, etc. I don't think a standard 6 string vanquish guitar is going to sell at all. I don't get the need for this piece by piece reveal when it's a shape they already did and very few asked for. The Vader reveal I got since it was almost entirely new, keeping in mind they did headless with the holdsworth. 

But the bevels need to stop.


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## jc986 (Jan 14, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Fvcking ew.



The K inlay isn't mandatory on any of their guitars. All can be ordered with any of their available inlay options. I think the K inlay is terrible as well.


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## laxu (Jan 14, 2017)

jc986 said:


> The K inlay isn't mandatory on any of their guitars. All can be ordered with any of their available inlay options. I think the K inlay is terrible as well.



Yeah. It is a bit silly that some of the logo options are extra when given the choice people would probably opt for no logo at all.


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## insaneshawnlane (Jan 14, 2017)

I've had some measurable GAS for a Vanquish-style guitar so I'm pretty happy with what has been revealed thus far. I'm pretty certain I'm one of the few who is actually excited for this

The top thing is interesting though. I can't picture how they're gonna do a multi-wood top and make it look good but it's still cool that they're adding more options. 

Speaking of more options, when are they going to offer wenge as a neck/fretboard wood?!? That'll be the nail in the coffin for my bank account


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm pretty sure jeff said he has no desire to work with wenge. Might have been a different type of wood though that i can't recall. Whatever wood it was, he kind of smugly dismissed though. 

An explorer is something else he said was not going to happen unless an artist he really liked really wanted one. Something along the lines of wanting to "do something unique." Which i guess just translates into a million different double cuts/super strats with retarded asymmetrical bevels and .... ugly color choices and ugly contrast. For real, most of the guitars/basses with weird bevels look like trash with tops. Especially with the non-painted binding. 

I'm still hoping that there's something unique about this one aside from just being a vanquish guitar. The vader was really cool, and even a solid colored aries is neat. (and both are offered in fanned fret variations, which was absolutely new and cool to see.) If this is just another sort of melty, different-but-same concoction, I have no interest at all.


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## jc986 (Jan 14, 2017)

They are doing wenge now, at least for tops. There's one in the in-stock section right now, and Mike Jones mentioned in their FB group that they have more wenge available for tops. Whether they would accommodate wenge for a neck or fretboard I don't know.


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## getowned7474 (Jan 14, 2017)

Looks like they are just photoshopping different guitars of the new model together. I was a bit a worried by the different top woods yesterday. The upper horn looks similar to the vanquish unfortunately . If the upper horn was smaller and angled inward a little more I think it would look cool.


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## cardinal (Jan 14, 2017)

Ok, I'm sure it's just a photoshop mash of different guitars, but it's much for fun to think of this as one real guitar that is Kiesel's ultimate expression of his vision.


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## runbirdman (Jan 14, 2017)

I'm gonna withold judgement until the full picture is released. I'm on the fence on whether the Vanquish body will fit a guitar well. I have hated a lot of what Jeff has put his thumb on (I.e. bevels and gaudy finishes), but it never hurts to have more distinct body shapes to choose from.


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## Hollowway (Jan 14, 2017)

Another headless option? It doesn't look like there's enough room in the photo for a full sized lower bout. Unless the above photo is cropped on the back end?


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## mnemonic (Jan 14, 2017)

Bleh. 

I don't think bass shapes make very good looking guitars, or vice versa. Proportions usually end up looking all wrong. 

I wish they would just outsource one guitar design, have a good graphic designer or guitar designer make one. The dude from Decibel could design a mean looking guitar, he just couldn't build one. Maybe he should sell his designs to Carvin.


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## Hollowway (Jan 14, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> Bleh.
> 
> I don't think bass shapes make very good looking guitars, or vice versa. Proportions usually end up looking all wrong.
> 
> I wish they would just outsource one guitar design, have a good graphic designer or guitar designer make one. The dude from Decibel could design a mean looking guitar, he just couldn't build one. Maybe he should sell his designs to Carvin.



Yeah, can you imagine if they had Skervesen or Padalka design a guitar? They'd get a million sales. From me alone!


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## xwmucradiox (Jan 14, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Another headless option? It doesn't look like there's enough room in the photo for a full sized lower bout. Unless the above photo is cropped on the back end?



The logo is cropped half out of the photo so Im sure there is more on both ends.


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## feraledge (Jan 14, 2017)

getowned7474 said:


> Looks like they are just photoshopping different guitars of the new model together. I was a bit a worried by the different top woods yesterday. The upper horn looks similar to the vanquish unfortunately . If the upper horn was smaller and angled inward a little more I think it would look cool.



But we can all agree that there's a part of us wondering if certain people at the company might not dream this this mash up was one guitar.


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## BouhZik (Jan 14, 2017)

I don't see any of their existing guitar headstock with that body shape


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jan 14, 2017)

You never know, guys. They might be taking a page out of Sandberg's book.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 14, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, can you imagine if they had Skervesen or Padalka design a guitar? They'd get a million sales. From me alone!



they'd definitely get a few more from me too  I love the neptune and saturn designs from padalka, and the skerveten too


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## mbardu (Jan 15, 2017)

Well whew what a relief. 
I am actually looking forward then, loving the vanquish shape. 

As for the patchwork, I was more afraid they would go "mega bevel" on the top side. Thankfully not. 
They have done ACTUAL patchwork before though (and I'm not only talking about the Aries  ) 

Check it out


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## terron (Jan 15, 2017)

i think, the form be like this bass


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## Musiscience (Jan 15, 2017)

ncfiala said:


> Not interested. I hate all these bevels and losing huge portions of the top. Some will disagree but I don't think Jeff has the eye for guitar aesthetics. Seems like the kind of guy with bad tattoos and an affliction shirt.



Always thought that, the exact reason I don't dig Kiesel instruments actually. 

Edit : 

Also not digging his personality in his videos "Bro!! I can't believe this guitar piece of *ss is still in stock, I mean BRO, WTF, my guitars are so incredible I can't believe people don't buy them the second they go in stock. Unbelievable. I can't even." 

Then heading home angry in his tasty motorized vehicle


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## mbardu (Jan 15, 2017)

terron said:


> i think, the form be like this bass



No precisely plz no


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## narad (Jan 15, 2017)

Man, feel guilty for thinking that first wacky Sandberg is really cool!


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## blacai (Jan 15, 2017)




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## BigViolin (Jan 15, 2017)

Garish finish mashup aside, I kinda like the shape so far with the longer upper bout and bolt on aspect.


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## A-Branger (Jan 15, 2017)

the thing that I didnt like when I saw the post in Instg was the whole "this is my new favourite guitar shape eveeerrrrrr" kinda stuff again. uuhggg Im not deniying he can like it, but when you say the same over every single new build it loose its value, and you only come across as a cheesy salesman with the oldest trick in the book. I always see the same with a couple of photographers friends of mine who actually have some success, every photo is "WWWOOOOWW! this is the best pic we have taken eveerrrrr" *roll eyes*


I dont like this design for bass as the bevel part makes the bass shape far too big. Maybe it could work with a guitar? maybe not?

but one thing for sure. You all here hating it right now, but give it a couple of months and you would see HNGD post everywhere in here. Same thing that happen with the Aries


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## odibrom (Jan 15, 2017)

Anyone noticed they changed the fretboard wood from this last pic to the previous ones?


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## ASoC (Jan 15, 2017)

odibrom said:


> Anyone noticed they changed the fretboard wood from this last pic to the previous ones?



Didn't notice until you mentioned it, but I approve of the change. Maple is best fretboard wood.


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## HaloHat (Jan 15, 2017)

ASoC said:


> Maple is best fretboard wood.



ftfy

Bloodwood is the best fretboard wood


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 15, 2017)

So overlaying with a Vanquish bass, what do you guys think?


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## ASoC (Jan 15, 2017)

^I'm sure that the shape will be pretty close to the Vanquish, but it looks like the guitar version keeps more of the top wood, which is a good thing.


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## A-Branger (Jan 15, 2017)

seems like the line from where the top wood goes makes a smaller line of the body wood in the bevel area. In other words the top wood is ticker. 

IMO looks better as it integrates the top better in the bevel, rather than the whole bevel be a different wood like on a bass

do Im making sense?

bevel


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## Hollowway (Jan 15, 2017)

If that's what it is, I certainly don't think this is worthy of a big reveal for NAMM. They released the Vader trem with not much fanfare at all. And they really have the only available "production" 8 string trem on a non-schecter guitar to date. And it's the only "production" headless trem for 8s. And then the big reveal is a double cut bolt on model? Just doesn't make sense. It's not like they don't already have one (or many). And it's not like the industry is devoid of them. If it is a vanquish guitar, I kind of embarrassed for them that they've got the internet all sitting around waiting for the big reveal. I hope it's at lease headless, otherwise this is a big yawn.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 15, 2017)

doesn't look that terrible here....


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## getowned7474 (Jan 15, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> doesn't look that terrible here....



The horns look a little awkward to me. I think the idea of a different/non-traditional shaped guitar is cool but the horns seem to stick out too far to the sides for my tastes. I guess it depends on the rest of the body as well though. I think those horns may look good on a 7 or 8 string though with the wider neck.


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## theicon2125 (Jan 15, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> doesn't look that terrible here....



Thank God they aren't all going to be weird patchwork tops, or if we're lucky that's just a photoshop of the types of tops available for it. That would be an abomination to have those nice top woods chopped up into small pieces to be stuck together on one guitar. But after the triple neck I'll never rule out them doing something weird.


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## dirtool (Jan 15, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> doesn't look that terrible here....


it needs a new headstock to match,those old pointy headstocks will make it looks weird


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## ramses (Jan 15, 2017)

dirtool said:


> it needs a new headstock to match,those old pointy headstocks will make it looks weird



I believe the vanquish body, with properly adjusted proportions, can be nice for a guitar ... though it is not my style.

My main worry is definitely the headstock. Hopefully they have a new one for this guitar.

An alternative could be a headless vanquish guitar, with a body cutout similar to the vader.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 16, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> doesn't look that terrible here....



That looks great, but I love the Vanquish shape


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 16, 2017)

k, another go at it, kind of hard to overlay the Vader as it has a more symmetric body contrary to the Vanquish.


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## bonga (Jan 16, 2017)

^^^ A bolt-on headless would be interesting. And you never know, this might the guitar where Kiesel even offers a headless or conventional offering. That would be killer!


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## Cheap Poison (Jan 16, 2017)

On those mock up, if they stretch out the body a bit more so it has more of a slender look. I think I can dig it.

Not that I hate some of their designs, just that they don't quite nail it 100%


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 16, 2017)

Kinda like the way the flame top looks. Would look better without the masked "binding" thing. Also, that pic reminds me that i want to try a guitar with scalloped frets.


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## the.godfather (Jan 16, 2017)

I've not been into anything Kiesel has done in years now, ever since they were still Carvin actually. But this interests me. Especially if this turns out to be a Vanquish headless...in a 7 or an 8 that would be cool as hell.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 16, 2017)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> k, another go at it, kind of hard to overlay the Vader as it has a more symmetric body contrary to the Vanquish.



if they made a bolt on headless vanquish the bevels might not be quite as disgusting, still not really a fan of the upper and lower horn shapes (they seem too rounded imo).


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## laxu (Jan 16, 2017)

The Vanquish shape might look better as a guitar than it does as a bass. That shorter neck seems to balance the curves more.

Bolt-on headless would be really cool though I wish they took a few cues from Strandberg/Skervesen and made that lower bout so that you can better play it in the classical position.


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## MrYakob (Jan 16, 2017)

Any chance that this turns out to be the new Letchford model? I remember seeing that they were working on a new shape for him when he switched to Kiesel and if this was headless I could (maybe?) see him playing something like this.


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## VigilSerus (Jan 16, 2017)




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## Randy (Jan 16, 2017)

_K_


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## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

Based on the contours, it's not headless. So I guess it's just another double cut. Yawn. I like Kiesel a lot, but I would really like to see something other than a million different double cut designs.


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## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Also, that pic reminds me that i want to try a guitar with scalloped frets.



Yeah, I got super excited at first, then realized it's an optical illusion. How killer would that be? Make me a Jason Becker Numbers guitar in a 7, with a trem, and scallop the frets. Shredalicious!


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## Jeffbro (Jan 16, 2017)

They really just need a better headless, vader shape looks like crap compared to strands and skervs. They would kill the competition if they can put out quality strandberg style guitars for less than the OS cost


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 16, 2017)

So at this point, it's safe to say it's a slightly tweaked Vanquish?


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## narad (Jan 16, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> So at this point, it's safe to say it's a slightly tweaked Vanquish?



Think that was safe to say from the get-go knowing how lazy Jeff is with that CNC machine.


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## oracles (Jan 16, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> So at this point, it's safe to say it's a slightly tweaked Vanquish?



While still being equally as aesthetically unappealing.


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## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

Son, I am disappoint.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Jan 16, 2017)

Not the same thing, but Letchford's signature 

That looks terrible LOL

EDIT: Welp, looks awfully similar to this Agile

http://www.rondomusic.com/product9137.html


----------



## Vairish (Jan 16, 2017)

New headless model:







*Edit: It's the new Chris Letchford sig:


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

I saw it and made the same expression as Jeff.


----------



## You (Jan 16, 2017)

Vairish said:


> New headless model:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The quilted maple top with the bright magenta finish


----------



## kevdes93 (Jan 16, 2017)

Gotta admit that's a killer finish.
The guitar itself has to grow on me, I'm not sure how I feel about it yet


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 16, 2017)

agree that stain top OMFG!!! I want it soooo bad (on a different guitar)


----------



## technomancer (Jan 16, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> I saw it and made the same expression as Jeff.





Really not liking that design. That said I'm looking forward to seeing some non-filtered / over-exposed photos of that finish


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

What possible advantage is there to do a headless guitar where the body is just a regular body? Seems like a weird band wagon hopping on thing. I love that finish, but hate the guitar.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 16, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> What possible advantage is there to do a headless guitar where the body is just a regular body? Seems like a weird band wagon hopping on thing. I love that finish, but hate the guitar.



That doesn't even bother me... it's that it just looks like a DCM7 with the back end scooped out to make room for the headless bridge. Wasn't Letchford supposed to be designing a new shape for this or something


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 16, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Really not liking that design. That said I'm looking forward to seeing some non-filtered / over-exposed photos of that finish



thats not overexposed (the second pic, first one is a screen grab from a video) thats correct exposure with no filters. Im actually glad they took off those cheesy bad vignettes.

its just a guitar in direct sunlight with a good phone camera, phone quality is pretty good these days specially on bright sunny day

so nop, thats not a filter


----------



## narad (Jan 16, 2017)

That finish is a $600 upcharge btw.


----------



## feraledge (Jan 16, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> I saw it and made the same expression as Jeff.



So much this! 

It's like they lost a headstock on a regular guitar accidentally and tried to salvage it. Emphasis on tried.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

narad said:


> That finish is a $600 upcharge btw.



Cuz it's really hard to get the flake in there, and... oh, wait. 

I guess he can charge whatever he wants, as the market will set the actual prices, but dang! That's a lot of upcharge for changing the color of stain!


----------



## cardinal (Jan 16, 2017)

I don't immediately dislike the Letchford sig. The spot behind the bridge doesn't bug me.


----------



## narad (Jan 16, 2017)

cardinal said:


> I don't immediately dislike the Letchford sig. The spot behind the bridge doesn't bug me.



Yea, reminds me of a Tyler Ultimate Weapon.


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Jan 16, 2017)

New model was obviously not a headless since yesterday, since they put their logo on the body right above the neck joint and it was-a-missing. The Letchford sig seems fairly pointless to me, which is obviously just an opinion. One of the few legitimate benefits to a headless is a compact design. The bridge is located in the exact same spot a standard flat mount bridge would be, so the neck isn't "shorter" like on the Vader. (which sort of has everything pulled closer to the butt of the guitar which makes it shorter.) It's legit just a guitar with the headstock sawed off. The purple quilt is sexy, but it'd look better on another guitar. I never was a fan of a beautiful top with a glaringly out of place bit of contrast. In this case, the cutout for the bridge is natural wood smack dab in the middle of vibrant purple. Sort of the same turn off as their ugly natural bevel binding ..... Paint the whole thing one color, transparent or solid, and I'd probably like it a lot more.


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Jan 16, 2017)

Letchford got one in the same finish as his "Sparkle Bitch" blue Strandberg. He posted a pic on his Facebook.


----------



## ncfiala (Jan 16, 2017)

Yuck not interested in the letchford sig either. Plus I've heard he's a super douche.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm guessing the CL sig is to get people who hated the Vader to think "Well, maybe the Vader doesn't look THAT bad..."


----------



## Mathemagician (Jan 16, 2017)

I mean that stained pink/purple top would look awesome on a JP imo....

Still waiting on more of the vanquish guitar. That one could still go either way.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 16, 2017)

I'm all for more headless models but i think the vader looks better. Absolutely love the stain color though.


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 16, 2017)

Señor Voorhees;4693383 said:


> The bridge is located in the exact same spot a standard flat mount bridge would be, so the neck isn't "shorter" like on the Vader. (which sort of has everything pulled closer to the butt of the guitar which makes it shorter.) It's legit just a guitar with the headstock sawed off.




the bridge on a vader (or any other headless guitar) is on the same spot than any other guitar, and their necks are not "shorter". If they do, then the scale length would be different.

the thing with headless guitars is that because you have the tunners at the bridge, it forces you to design a guitar around it so you can access them. Pretty much by making the guitar body smaller, so the bridge would sit at the edge of a guitar (like on a bass). The vader shape is a little bit bigger than others but the lines of the guitar makes a "cut-out" at the back of the bridge.

This new guitar is like you are saying a regular shape/sized guitar, so the only way to access the tunners is by building that access thing which doesnt go well with the design IMO (an extreme bad example would be the new Agile). But its not by any means different in size on neck/bridge position

headless bodies works well when its designed for it, not adapted from a regular sized guitar

I can see the apeal, but maybe because I like the top and stain too much


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2017)

A-Branger said:


> the bridge on a vader (or any other headless guitar) is on the same spot than any other guitar, and their necks are not "shorter". If they do, then the scale length would be different.
> 
> the thing with headless guitars is that because you have the tunners at the bridge, it forces you to design a guitar around it so you can access them. Pretty much by making the guitar body smaller, so the bridge would sit at the edge of a guitar (like on a bass). The vader shape is a little bit bigger than others but the lines of the guitar makes a "cut-out" at the back of the bridge.
> 
> ...



Yeah, he didn't mean that the neck or bridge were shorter than 25.5". It's that the body stops at the bridge, making the distance between the nut and the butt of the guitar substantially shorter. This new design has none of the size benefits of a headless, but all of the downsides. Which I think we can all agree on.


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 16, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, he didn't mean that the neck or bridge were shorter than 25.5". It's that the body stops at the bridge, making the distance between the nut and the butt of the guitar substantially shorter. This new design has none of the size benefits of a headless, but all of the downsides. Which I think we can all agree on.



awww yeah got it now 

yeah pretty much agree too


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 16, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, he didn't mean that the neck or bridge were shorter than 25.5". It's that the body stops at the bridge, making the distance between the nut and the butt of the guitar substantially shorter. This new design has none of the size benefits of a headless, but all of the downsides. Which I think we can all agree on.



It's funny because before Jeff took the helm, Carvin had to do some tweaks to some existing shapes if they wanted to add some strings, or extend the scale length, so it would make the guitar properly balanced. They tried to make the designs as ergonomic as possible. 

Now with Jeff at the helm, it's all pizzazz and looks and fancy stains, while actual effort in making the guitars more ergonomic are out the window. Literally just took the Aries shape, got rid of the bevels, and added the cavity for the headless tuners.


----------



## Carvinkook (Jan 17, 2017)

First Impression, DUD.. but what do I know?


----------



## nistley (Jan 17, 2017)

Is this is some kind of a bad accident? Multiscale head is still rectangular? Tuners blocked so that you have to reach with finger under, does it come with knuckle guards? It doesn't make much sense. I mean, have they asked around? I guess it's not like they are premaking a batch, so they can't lose much money, but I doubt it will sell very well, which is unfortunate for CL and innovation in general.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2017)

Yeah, it's funny because when the Vader first came out I hated the design. I actually still do not particularly care for it. But there was an in-stock 8 that came up a couple of months ago, and it was amazing and a killer deal. So I snapped it up. The thing plays incredibly well. I was super impressed. It's my 3rd Carvin over the last 5 years or so, and they've all been really nice instruments. But the design stuff is just not there. For me, anyway. But I feel like if the design part were 100% Kiesel could crush everyone else out there. It's faster, safer, and cheaper to order a custom from Kiesel. And they can be beautiful woods and finishes. But damn, they need to get someone with a good eye for design in there. I've said it before in this thread, but can you imagine if their instock section was full of skervesen/padalka/etc. designs? They'd have a hard time keeping up with demand.


----------



## dpm (Jan 17, 2017)

narad said:


> Man, feel guilty for thinking that first wacky Sandberg is really cool!



You're right, it's ....ing glorious. Best part of the thread, tied with the Costanza PS


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 17, 2017)

Chris said it comes with a Duncan Pegasus/Sentient set so I presume that will start being an option on all the Vaders and Aries multiscales too? Is it bolt-on or neckthru?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2017)

Chris Letchford posted these in the kiesel headless owner group.


----------



## Pikka Bird (Jan 17, 2017)

Wow, the purple and magenta finishes rule with an iron fist!

About the guitar as a whole- I like that it doesn't have the awkward stubby horns of the Vader, but I don't like that it's full-sized, like you guys already discussed.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Jan 17, 2017)

Looks like its Set neck construction. Is that a first of Carvin/Kiesel?


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 17, 2017)

Not in love with that shape on a headless model but it certainly looks better with the solid finish, and yes that satin purple kicks all kinds of ass.


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Jan 17, 2017)

Definitely looks nicer without the natural wood showing through the color. I'm not in the market for another headless, but I'd definitely consider one if I was. That flat purple one is very tasty indeed. Still not sure about the vanquish. I really want to know it's features before committing one way or the other. If it's just a vanquish guitar, I'm just disinterested. Can't imagine why they'd waste this time on just another body shape when they were just fine dropping the CL sig out of nowhere.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 17, 2017)

Definitely liking the Letchford better in solid color, but still more likely to buy a Vader or Holdsworth 



Lorcan Ward said:


> Looks like its Set neck construction. Is that a first of Carvin/Kiesel?



The CS and CT models are all set neck


----------



## prlgmnr (Jan 17, 2017)

oh that matte purple is legitimate


----------



## BouhZik (Jan 17, 2017)

I really like the purple letchford. Just watched the video and unfortunately it will come standard with chambering and flame maple top. so the price will start higher than a vader.
the "vanquish" is also growing on me. maybe it's headless using the same trick than the letchford, with no logo on the body for the "surprise" effect!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 17, 2017)

Uh... huh.


----------



## BouhZik (Jan 17, 2017)

yeah..... nope.


----------



## jerm (Jan 17, 2017)

Looks fugly AF.


----------



## kevdes93 (Jan 17, 2017)

Nah yeah nah

Nah


----------



## JumpingInFire (Jan 17, 2017)

I find myself in the minority with disliking pretty much anything Carvin or Kiesel has done.

I actually kind of dig this guitar minus the headstock.

I'd like to see an actual finished one instead of this collage.


----------



## gunshow86de (Jan 17, 2017)

JumpingInFire said:


> I actually kind of dig this guitar minus the headstock.
> 
> I'd like to see an actual finished one instead of this collage.





Agree with both of these statements.

I actually like the new headstock, but it doesn't fit with the shape of the body.


----------



## laxu (Jan 17, 2017)

I really like the finishes on those Letchfords but the design itself is a dud. I like that headless guitars are a bit different in body shape with more emphasis on ergonomics. I think the Vader is a pretty good looking design so I don't see why they bothered making the Letchford model in the first place.

The new Vanquish body guitar headstock is ugly. I hope they at least offer the other headstocks as an option.


----------



## Randy (Jan 17, 2017)

>



Not to hop on the hate-train, but I'm going to echo an old complaint of mine. The old Carvin/Kiesel "shaved away arm contour" deal was lazy design/execution, and the whole "routing a flat area on an otherwise full sized body" to accommodate the headless bridge is another cop out. 

All headless designs that have been successful have had to confront the fact the tuners are hard to get to with the body in the way. The balance is finding a way to make them accessible, while making the body design and access not look like an afterthought. If it was as easy as just routing a flat recess, you'd see more LP and super-strat headless copies.

I think he'd have been a lot better off sticking with the modified Vader as his sig, with something unique to keep it separate... the exclusive paintjob was one approach, and maybe something else exclusive like a headless trem or something.

EDIT: Also, since it looks to be DC shaped, maybe make it carved top, with it shaved off enough to get your hand in there a la the Vik headless.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2017)

surprise surprise, the vanquish is ugly even as a regular guitar.


----------



## TheUnvanquished (Jan 17, 2017)

^^^ LOL

I kind of dig the purple Letchford...


----------



## curlyvice (Jan 17, 2017)

Just waiting for the bottom right corner to unveil "Available in 25,5" scale or 25,5"-27" multiscale"

I could see this shape working quite well for an 8 string multiscale.


----------



## dirtool (Jan 17, 2017)

I like the new headstock


----------



## Guamskyy (Jan 17, 2017)

I feel the body is too long when compared to the size of the headstock, but then again they did mention that this is the 7/8 string Holdsworth equivalent headstock which IMO have always looked odd when taken as a whole with the body.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 17, 2017)

Liking the 7 string Holdsworth headstock


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Jan 17, 2017)

Kiesel/Carvin always reach just shy of greatness and then their trajectory lands them on mediocre.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 17, 2017)

The purple CL model is simply dope! But for me, it ends there. The new headstock is not terrible but putting it on the Vanquish should be illegal  The Vanquish guitar 's body is a tad too long IMHO => looks ugly, sorry. 

For me personally, I like the Vader, and if I get a 2nd 8-string guitar, it'll be a Vader w/ trem.


----------



## Matt08642 (Jan 17, 2017)

I feel like most Kiesel body shapes remind me of drawing guitar shapes from memory in my notebook in highschool. Like the proportions are just weird/wrong.


----------



## wannabguitarist (Jan 17, 2017)

I feel like this shape would look a lot better if the butt of the guitar was offset in the opposite direction, kinda like a Suhr Modern or Schecter Avenger.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2017)

wannabguitarist said:


> I feel like this shape would look a lot better if the butt of the guitar was offset in the opposite direction, kinda like a Suhr Modern or Schecter Avenger.



For sure. Or even accentuate it at it's current offset, like an ESP Stream. The Vanquish DOES look better as a multiscale, due to it's offset, but clearly that was an afterthought. Like many others have said, the design seems completely independent of any other features of the guitar. The bevel on the Aries ends below the midline on the bottom, the shape of the guitars are unaltered for multiscale models, the headless endcaps are straight on multiscales, etc. etc. If they took a feature they wanted to include, and instead asked, "How should we change the rest of the guitar to incorporate this" it would be much better. That is what good design is. Even that magenta quilt finish is wonky, because they picked a body wood that wouldn't work with the top finish. It's clear there isn't anyone there who has an eye for design. I'm not saying I do - but I've seen a lot of luthiers, and just regular guys on here, who can design a beautiful guitar. It's not the hardest thing in the world. But these designs are continually falling well short of what they could be.


----------



## jephjacques (Jan 17, 2017)

I like the vanquish and especially that headstock


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 17, 2017)

for those who dont check the bass sub-forum in here






signature bass of the Tesseract guy. Kiesel just did a live feed on their facebook and shared on the bands site too fi you want to see this bass and they also showed their NAMM both being settup. No guitars tho, only one Koa and only showing the headstocks of the new model


----------



## gunshow86de (Jan 17, 2017)

I can has Kiesel design job?


----------



## DoomJazz (Jan 17, 2017)

Can't wait to see some finished 6 string versions.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2017)

Is it just me, or do you guys think "fat guy with tiny ....." when you look at that Vanquish? I can't unsee it now. (And ok, I'll stop ripping on Kiesel. I actually do like the company!)


----------



## Fathand (Jan 18, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Uh... huh.



Getting some positive 70's fusion vibes from this one. Must be the natural finish (parts). Cool.

Now where's that 24 fret Bolt on strat that Greg Howe was flashing in a video on his Facebook.


----------



## Forkface (Jan 18, 2017)

i actually like it. 

huh...


----------



## Brodolio (Jan 18, 2017)

Actually I don't like these models that much..
Maybe the body shape, I don't know


----------



## odibrom (Jan 18, 2017)

Me 2


----------



## mnemonic (Jan 18, 2017)

Could be worse. 

I think more people will like it once we see some actual pictures instead of this patchwork mashup monstrosity. I know they're just trying to show off that they can do a lot of finish options, but it makes the preview look like ..... And who doesn't already know that kiesel does a lot of finish options?


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Jan 18, 2017)

At this point, I'm mostly just curious as to what's in the bottom right of the image. Hopefully it's text and not just background. I guess we'll find out later today. Thank god, cuz this whole ordeal has been mind numbing. lol

As an aside, I really like that tesseract bass. Decent price for something that is essentially only just a slightly modded vader. That pickup config and knob layout is neat.

Edit: I also like the headstock. Looks nicer reversed, like in the image above, but I legitimately like the design.


----------



## Timelesseer (Jan 18, 2017)

I haven't been big on Kiesels new models over the last few years, the bevels aren't my thing. For some reason though, Im loving the new Letchford sig. I'm in the minority of really liking the headless DC design. I love that you can get it with the Pegasus/Sentient set from Kiesel as those are my favorite pickups, so being able to get a slanted set of them straight from the factory is a huge bonus for me. Going to wait until the builder goes live and see what it would cost to get one spec'd out to my liking and then decide if I'm going to order one or not.

The Vanquish guitar though...


----------



## Snarpaasi (Jan 18, 2017)

Holdsworth headstock is the one I chose for my DC127 and it rocks, nothing wrong about it. Looks also nice with seven strings, but don't you Jeff tell this is some "new" invention.
Vanquish would be nice with some other headstock probably. Unfortunately most of the Carvin headstocks are quite ugly. Reverse inline would be my second choise.

And why they use this horrible rainbow vomit for marketing?


----------



## oracles (Jan 18, 2017)

I actually don't know which one I like less. A headless DC shape really doesn't do anything for me, it just comes off as looking awkward (though that's true for just about all their shapes) and that Vanquish is arguably worse looking as a guitar than it is a bass.


----------



## jerm (Jan 18, 2017)

That shape totally worked as a bass, but as a guitar it looks bad.


----------



## Dcm81 (Jan 18, 2017)

If it interests anybody; Letchford got asked on his FB why the body of his new signature has that shape and he answered, that he wanted to have a headless, but on a regular super strat shape as he wanted to get away from the "standard/regular" headless body shape.


----------



## getowned7474 (Jan 18, 2017)

Looks like it will be in multiscale as well, unless they just put the headstock on another kind of guitar that is multiscale like an Aries.


----------



## cardinal (Jan 18, 2017)

I suspect they haven't revealed the bridge yet because they're announcing its multiscale (they'll suddenly change the photoshopped neck to fanned frets).


----------



## wannabguitarist (Jan 18, 2017)

gunshow86de said:


> I can has Kiesel design job?



That's funky. I kind of like that, even with the rear being offset in the wrong way.


----------



## kevdes93 (Jan 18, 2017)

He just showed it off on his facebook, I admit it looks 1000x better as multiscale


----------



## mnemonic (Jan 18, 2017)

At least they didn't reveal the headstock first or a bunch of people would be disappointed when they realise it's not a 7 string holdsworth.


----------



## Knarbens (Jan 18, 2017)

The "offset in the wrong way" might look cool on multiscale versions though.


----------



## AngstRiddenDreams (Jan 18, 2017)

I cannot stand that collage photo. Just show me what it looks like as an entirety in one finish


----------



## blacai (Jan 18, 2017)

here the video
https://www.facebook.com/kieselguitars/videos/1843743805908913/


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Jan 18, 2017)

Huh... I actually think it looks really cool as a non shooped guitar. I actually really like the way they look with tops on them. Depending on the price, I may just get one at some point in the future.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2017)

So wonder what the price is? It's not different enough from the DC and Aries to make me buy one (and not sure what all the hype is from the company), and I do not like the HS, but it DEFINITELY looks better as a multi. If it's cheap enough, I might pick one up from in-stock or used. But I'm secretly hoping Kiesel designs something really unique.


----------



## VigilSerus (Jan 18, 2017)

Crucify me, but the shape of the body and headstock actually really works in multiscale and erg. The headstock is grossly small in the 6, but pans out a lot better being bigger on the 7's and 8's. That burl multi 7 had me sweating.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 18, 2017)

OK this is everything the Aries should have been. 

Fingers crossed for piezo.


----------



## JSanta (Jan 18, 2017)

I actually really dig this model.


----------



## cardinal (Jan 18, 2017)

Well, it's not my thing, but from the video it's kinda neat looking. Worst reveal ever: make everyone think it's hideous when it's really not.


----------



## Guamskyy (Jan 18, 2017)

So after seeing the pics that they posted on FB, I'm starting to dig it.

Oops.


----------



## getowned7474 (Jan 18, 2017)

Looks pretty good actually, especially the multiscale ones. If I was in the market for a 7 or 8 this would be a consideration probably. I like how it has just a 3 way and push/pull volume knob as well.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 18, 2017)

That is actually not bad. There are other models I will go for if I place an order, but that is not bad at all, much better looking than the reveal photochop.

But seriously a tone knob is a fvcking non-returnable option 50 on these? Really?


----------



## LordCashew (Jan 18, 2017)

ShadowsfeaR said:


> Crucify me, but the shape of the body and headstock actually really works in multiscale and erg. The headstock is grossly small in the 6, but pans out a lot better being bigger on the 7's and 8's.



Yeah, the proportions seem to come out just right on the multiscale 8. Surprisingly, I'm interested...


----------



## kevdes93 (Jan 18, 2017)




----------



## Djentlyman (Jan 18, 2017)

Grape Jelly Metallic


----------



## BouhZik (Jan 18, 2017)

photoshop was really bad. I really like it finally ......

grape jelly is awesome. Prince would be horny


----------



## A-Branger (Jan 18, 2017)

now this is the bevel line the Aries should had

must say it does looks good, I do hate this shape on a bass tho, I still think it looks huge and wrong on a bass. But on a guitar it does actually work. Multiscale works better, 

still not a fan of the headstock


----------



## nistley (Jan 18, 2017)

I like the Vanquish, looks very comfy and not weirdly beveled, but more like a carve. The demo versions also look pretty clean and tasteful.

That purple paint and the hand bevel are also fantastic, but the headless crap makes it burrrrhhh


----------



## gunshow86de (Jan 18, 2017)

Reminds me a bit of my old Washburn....


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2017)

Do people like the antique ash treatment on the whole body? I've never been a fan, but I see a LOT of them on the stock instruments, so I didn't know. I'll be curious to see if this generates some cool combos of woods and finishes. On the Aries I very much didn't like the asymmetry of the bevel, but this is more symmetric, so it might work well.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 18, 2017)

ok, I was wrong that blue caliburst vanquish actually looks great. It looks way better than I thought it would. If I had some extra cash I'd pick up a vanquish. 




LAWD JESUS THAT GOLD SPARKLE <3




wow the vanquish body is pretty small. I'm surprised.




CL headless sig is pretty much the same size as the vader


----------



## cardinal (Jan 18, 2017)

I don't like burl tops or many Kiesel shapes, but that burl Vanquish is hot.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 18, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Do people like the antique ash treatment on the whole body? I've never been a fan, but I see a LOT of them on the stock instruments, so I didn't know. I'll be curious to see if this generates some cool combos of woods and finishes. On the Aries I very much didn't like the asymmetry of the bevel, but this is more symmetric, so it might work well.



Kiesel is heavily pushing for the aat but as far as I'm concerned I'm not convinced either. Some stock instruments are specced by Jeff or the staff so I wouldn't take it as an indication.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 18, 2017)

yeah I think the AAT looks gross. If there was some other color options for filling the grain on the ash I'd be game. Maybe take a page out of mayones/padalka/gibson's book and do the red grain against black or something.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah I think the AAT looks gross. If there was some other color options for filling the grain on the ash I'd be game. Maybe take a page out of mayones/padalka/gibson's book and do the red grain against black or something.



OH MY GOD yes. If they did a Padalka style with the body wood being green and the top being ash with a black stain over a green grainfill that would be so hot. But, if they were Padalka they would also have a crazy cool design at a ridiculously good price. So maybe I should just order a Padalka.


----------



## wannabguitarist (Jan 18, 2017)

I'm loving this even more after seeing how small the body is.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 18, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> OH MY GOD yes. If they did a Padalka style with the body wood being green and the top being ash with a black stain over a green grainfill that would be so hot. But, if they were Padalka they would also have a crazy cool design at a ridiculously good price. So maybe I should just order a Padalka.


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2017)

wannabguitarist said:


> I'm loving this even more after seeing how small the body is.



Wannab likes his guitars like his Asian girlfriends: Small bodied.


----------



## wannabguitarist (Jan 18, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Wannab likes his guitars like his Asian girlfriends: Small bodied.



There's a reason why I went to UCSD 

That also happens to apply to cars and dogs


----------



## Xaios (Jan 18, 2017)

Hunh. I actually like it. 

Good job, Kiesel.


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## mbardu (Jan 18, 2017)

A guitar that sso almost likes. 

Well done kiesel indeed


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## A-Branger (Jan 18, 2017)

mbardu said:


> A guitar that sso almost likes.
> 
> Well done kiesel indeed





and that everyone seemed to hate at the start. And judging by the amount of hate towards the Aries and the amountof NGD in here, I bet this one would be a good seller


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## ASoC (Jan 18, 2017)

Thought it looked pretty terrible and awkward at first, but it actually looks pretty good in multi-scale form. If I wanted a fanned fret instrument I'd be seriously considering one of these. Good job Kiesel


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 18, 2017)

I actually like this much better then the aries


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## Snarpaasi (Jan 19, 2017)

multiscale looks quite good! Hipshot trem looks interesting


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## laxu (Jan 19, 2017)

It doesn't look that bad. I would still probably pick an Aries, DCM or Vader over it any day but it works better as a guitar than a bass body.


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## crankyrayhanky (Jan 19, 2017)

Looks better on the multi scale but overall no gas for me


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## Fathand (Jan 19, 2017)

That in a 6-string multiscale, natural finished with a nice wood combo... why not.


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## Xaios (Jan 19, 2017)

SSO meme mode activated.


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## BillCosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Either they left it off by accident, or they discontinued it, but the DC7X isn't on the site anymore.


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## thrsher (Jan 19, 2017)

BillCosby said:


> Either they left it off by accident, or they discontinued it, but the DC7X isn't on the site anymore.



i checked, its combined into the dc700 now and the 27in scale is an option as a 50 upcharge


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## BillCosby (Jan 19, 2017)

Weird, I looked for that last night and didn't see it as an option. Well, at least it's still an option.


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## jephjacques (Jan 19, 2017)

I've got whiplash from the constant swings in SSO's opinion of Kiesel


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## mbardu (Jan 19, 2017)

Is it just an impression or is the top on those vanquish guitars super mega thin? 

Looks hardly more than a veneer, no?


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## stevexc (Jan 19, 2017)

mbardu said:


> Is it just an impression or is the top on those vanquish guitars super mega thin?
> 
> Looks hardly more than a veneer, no?



Sacrifices must be made for the almighty bevel.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 19, 2017)

thrsher said:


> i checked, its combined into the dc700 now and the 27in scale is an option as a 50 upcharge



That's a weird thing to do. Although the 25 and 27 vaders and aries aren't separate models so I guess it makes sense.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 19, 2017)

thrsher said:


> i checked, its combined into the dc700 now and the 27in scale is an option as a 50 upcharge



Sooo if you want a baritone DC7, you have to deal with no returns.
Whats the deal with that?

I'm peeersonally still not sold on the Vanquish. The blue one looked nice, but thats just about it.


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## jephjacques (Jan 19, 2017)

stevexc said:


> Sacrifices must be made for the almighty bevel.





Looks to me like it's 1/16", which is thin but pretty standard on superstrat style guitars.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 19, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Sooo if you want a baritone DC7, you have to deal with no returns.
> Whats the deal with that?
> 
> I'm peeersonally still not sold on the Vanquish. The blue one looked nice, but thats just about it.



wtf is kiesel doing... making tone knobs on the vanquish opt. 50 AND making the DC7X opt. 50. I guess it's a good thing I'm only buying 8 string vaders anymore.


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## thrsher (Jan 19, 2017)

dc7x is not an option 50, its just a regular option choice on the the dc700 its 50$ upcharge, wasnt clear on post


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## Xaios (Jan 19, 2017)

jephjacques said:


> I've got whiplash from the constant swings in SSO's opinion of Kiesel



I don't think anyone's opinion of the company has really changed. It's an appealing model, I'll warrant them that, but that doesn't mean I'd be willing to give them my money. It's the same thing with other luthiers and companies who have reprehensible practices. ViK makes some of most beautiful guitars I've ever seen. I still think he's a detestable human being and would never give him a cent, but that fact doesn't make me blind to the beauty and craftsmanship of the instruments he builds.


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## Hollowway (Jan 19, 2017)

No Vanquishes, but there's an ugly ass CL sig  and a few super hot DCMs up on the in-stock page now. There's a buckeye DCM8 that's calling my name. But at $2500, by the time I add tax and shipping and a case it's WAY beyond what I could swing. Hot, though!


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 19, 2017)

This new headless is absolutely hideous.





All the grace and form of a $300 Chinese guitar.


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## technomancer (Jan 19, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> wtf is kiesel doing... making tone knobs on the vanquish opt. 50 AND making the DC7X opt. 50. I guess it's a good thing I'm only buying 8 string vaders anymore.



It's no secret Jeff doesn't like dealing with returns so they're trying to phase the option out whenever possible. It makes sense from a business standpoint but sucks for customers.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 19, 2017)

thrsher said:


> dc7x is not an option 50, its just a regular option choice on the the dc700 its 50$ upcharge, wasnt clear on post



I was about to say.  I mean Kiesel has made some... iffy choices in the passed few years, but that would be really, really ....ty of them to do.


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## bostjan (Jan 19, 2017)

Love them or lump them, Kiesel's return policy is really dangerous for their business model.

They make custom guitars. How do you return a custom guitar? It's bad for the builder, for sure, but, on the other hand, if something is not right, they need to own up to it and make it right, or else they will lose the faith of potential customers. But enough of that from me, back to new guitar models that I don't particularly care for.


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## SnowfaLL (Jan 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Love them or lump them, Kiesel's return policy is really dangerous for their business model.
> 
> They make custom guitars. How do you return a custom guitar? It's bad for the builder, for sure, but, on the other hand, if something is not right, they need to own up to it and make it right, or else they will lose the faith of potential customers. But enough of that from me, back to new guitar models that I don't particularly care for.



Is there even any return policies for any other guitar building company like Skerversen, Ran, etc?? After a build is completed, you get it home, can you return any of them at full refund other than the shipping? I dont think so. 

Kiesel deals with returns for legit quality concerns, and thats all they really need to do IMO. The fact you can order so much already with a 10-day no questions asked period is pretty good in comparison to basically every other company. Name companies that do more than that.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jan 19, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Is there even any return policies for any other guitar building company like Skerversen, Ran, etc?? After a build is completed, you get it home, can you return any of them at full refund other than the shipping? I dont think so. .



Yes, many people on this forum have returned guitars for a refund from custom shops. If they deliver a faulty product they have to refund you by law. Check their websites for terms & condtions.

Sending it back after ten days because you don't like would be disastrous for small companies since they are working with such a wide array of specs so they can't implement that.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 19, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Is there even any return policies for any other guitar building company like Skerversen, Ran, etc?? After a build is completed, you get it home, can you return any of them at full refund other than the shipping? I dont think so.
> 
> *Kiesel deals with returns for legit quality concerns, and thats all they really need to do IMO. The fact you can order so much already with a 10-day no questions asked period is pretty good in comparison to basically every other company. Name companies that do more than that.*



I have 100% considered ordering a guitar, playing it for a few days, then returning it since I'm so close to the warehouse/shop. The days is fairly surprising for a company that offers semi-custom instruments.

The standard QC return bull.... that a few members here went through earlier this year is absolute bull.... though.


----------



## Konstantine (Jan 19, 2017)

A-Branger said:


> for those who dont check the bass sub-forum in here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But.. Butttt, staining burl teal is impossible!! Jeff weasel said so!!! oh.. wait... no, they just screw over and spit in the face of customers who ask for things like that who aren't big name artists. I asked for teal stain like that and Jeff just spray paints the burl top on my dc700 white and when I point this out to them... he tells me to deal with it. He then throws a complete temper tantrum when I put him on blast for it after, banning me from ever ordering one of their turds again. Hilarious.


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## gunch (Jan 19, 2017)

kevdes93 said:


>



I want to like it but not enough booty 

[Muffled Queen in the distance]


----------



## SnowfaLL (Jan 19, 2017)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Yes, many people on this forum have returned guitars for a refund from custom shops. If they deliver a faulty product they have to refund you by law. Check their websites for terms & condtions.
> 
> Sending it back after ten days because you don't like would be disastrous for small companies since they are working with such a wide array of specs so they can't implement that.



I'm not talking about QC returns from other companies, I'm talking the "I just dont like it" returns like Kiesel has in its first 10 days. Does any other builder do that? Not a chance. So why does everyone get in such a big fuss when Kiesel doesnt want to return guitars with Opt 50s? Thats my point.

Yes, its a bit odd the tone control vanquish thing makes it opt 50, and a few other things lately.. but every other company has an automatic penalty for returns on EVERY option so why is it such a big deal? If someone cares that much and wants a guitar to test the waters, just order stock and keep the 10 day return period.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 19, 2017)

Konstantine said:


> But.. Butttt, staining burl teal is impossible!! Jeff weasel said so!!! oh.. wait... no, they just screw over and spit in the face of customers who ask for things like that who aren't big name artists. I asked for teal stain like that and Jeff just spray paints the burl top on my dc700 white and when I point this out to them... he tells me to deal with it. He then throws a complete temper tantrum when I put him on blast for it after, banning me from ever ordering one of their turds again. Hilarious.



that sucks dude, I don't know why he'd say they couldn't stain burl.. that crap drinks stain.


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## Hollowway (Jan 19, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> I'm not talking about QC returns from other companies, I'm talking the "I just dont like it" returns like Kiesel has in its first 10 days. Does any other builder do that? Not a chance. So why does everyone get in such a big fuss when Kiesel doesnt want to return guitars with Opt 50s? Thats my point.
> 
> Yes, its a bit odd the tone control vanquish thing makes it opt 50, and a few other things lately.. but every other company has an automatic penalty for returns on EVERY option so why is it such a big deal? If someone cares that much and wants a guitar to test the waters, just order stock and keep the 10 day return period.



Well, to be fair other (reputable) builders WILL correct mistakes they made on what you asked for. Jeff will not allow that. If you ask for a particular finish, and they screw it up, they won't return it or fix it. Other luthiers will (maybe not all, but the ones I've worked with). Plus, the issue here is that Carvin built their company on the no-risk sale. I'm that way they were more like a production company with some choices. But now that they're more like a pseudo custom company, they're having to make these calls on when to allow a return, when to prohibit it.


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## Hollowway (Jan 19, 2017)

Konstantine said:


> But.. Butttt, staining burl teal is impossible!! Jeff weasel said so!!! oh.. wait... no, they just screw over and spit in the face of customers who ask for things like that who aren't big name artists. I asked for teal stain like that and Jeff just spray paints the burl top on my dc700 white and when I point this out to them... he tells me to deal with it. He then throws a complete temper tantrum when I put him on blast for it after, banning me from ever ordering one of their turds again. Hilarious.



I remember that. It was straight up BS and making excuses.


----------



## Snarpaasi (Jan 19, 2017)

Konstantine said:


> But.. Butttt, staining burl teal is impossible!! Jeff weasel said so!!! oh.. wait... no, they just screw over and spit in the face of customers who ask for things like that who aren't big name artists. I asked for teal stain like that and Jeff just spray paints the burl top on my dc700 white and when I point this out to them... he tells me to deal with it. He then throws a complete temper tantrum when I put him on blast for it after, banning me from ever ordering one of their turds again. Hilarious.



Wasn't this the case with the odd blue purple burst? Anyway, this sucks.. 

I don't see why people should whine about the 10day return policy. It's specced by you and at that point I consider you have absolutely no right to return it just because you happen to feel so. Like someone pointed out, does any other custom shop offer returns? 

QC issues should be a different thing. Unfortunately what I've read, Carvin doesn't care much after the guitar has been received.


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## xzacx (Jan 20, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Plus, the issue here is that Carvin built their company on the no-risk sale. I'm that way they were more like a production company with some choices. But now that they're more like a pseudo custom company, they're having to make these calls on when to allow a return, when to prohibit it.



This is the big point for me. You can't use the return policy as part of your sales pitch, then limit it more and more. I totally agree that it's a very generous policy, but they need to live up to it if it's going to continue to be a selling point.


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## SnowfaLL (Jan 20, 2017)

Snarpaasi said:


> Wasn't this the case with the odd blue purple burst? Anyway, this sucks..
> 
> I don't see why people should whine about the 10day return policy. It's specced by you and at that point I consider you have absolutely no right to return it just because you happen to feel so. Like someone pointed out, does any other custom shop offer returns?
> 
> QC issues should be a different thing. Unfortunately what I've read, Carvin doesn't care much after the guitar has been received.



I've never heard of any serious QC issues not being rectified by Kiesel. The only "issues" you hear about on this forum are color matches, which they give a BIG DISCLAIMER that color matches might not come out as expected - and thats a risk you take ordering one. Of course, people always forget that part of the phone call. Yes, their paint guys since 2013 have been pretty ....ty, but the sales guys give you fair warning about it (as someone whos ordered 2 color matches myself can attest to). 

For any I order going forward (not likely, but maybe a Vader trem someday down the road) I just order a solid color - no risk and cheaper. Problem solved.

For any non-color related QC issue, you are fine.


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## Hollowway (Jan 20, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> I've never heard of any serious QC issues not being rectified by Kiesel. The only "issues" you hear about on this forum are color matches, which they give a BIG DISCLAIMER that color matches might not come out as expected - and thats a risk you take ordering one. Of course, people always forget that part of the phone call. Yes, their paint guys since 2013 have been pretty ....ty, but the sales guys give you fair warning about it (as someone whos ordered 2 color matches myself can attest to).
> 
> For any I order going forward (not likely, but maybe a Vader trem someday down the road) I just order a solid color - no risk and cheaper. Problem solved.
> 
> For any non-color related QC issue, you are fine.



That's not true. You definitely hear about true QC issues that do not get rectified until after a protracted argument. There are threads on here as well as on the Carvinbbs. Ultimately the majority of them are dealt with, but often only after being made public. Now, I've had a QC issue that was dealt with very quickly and with awesome customer service. And I'm sure that the majority of them are that way as well. But there are definitely the unfortunate few who run into a big roadblock. I still think they're one of the safest companies to order a guitar from. What I wish is they had the new designs with the old humble attitude. Not to get all nostalgic, but Carvin used to talk about the company as "we," because it was a family company that treated its employees and customers as part of the family. Now when you hear Jeff talk about it, he says things like, "stop by my booth at NAMM," and it makes me wonder what Mark and the other people think about Jeff acting as if it is his company. It's a bittersweet thing for me, because I love the guitars, the quality, and many of the guys there. But I feel like it's gone to Jeff's head, and he's got a completely different mindset than the company that he inherited. But at the same time, I like that he's listening to the niche players now.


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## mnemonic (Jan 20, 2017)

Well if we're venting our dislikes about the brand, I always thought Jeff came off kind of sleasy used car salesman to me. A lot of cheesy marketing-speak, and somtimes he says stuff in his videos that is blatantly wrong or a twist of the truth to justify them doing something ("you don't want a PLEK'd guitar" or "you can't do a bent top on a vader"). 

I agree that I liked the brand a bit more back in the day when his dad was in charge, felt more 'family business,' though there were way less finish and wood options then, only one seven string model, and the models in general were a lot more plain and boring imo. Not that they are amazing now, but they are at least better looking.


----------



## laxu (Jan 20, 2017)

I had some cosmetic QC issues on my Kiesel AM7 and since I am on the other side of the world I didn't want to send the guitar back as I liked it other wise. Kiesel gave me a small refund (more than I hoped for) instead and I felt they handled it just fine.

The problem is that what makes something Opt 50 is completely arbitrary and on a model by model basis. I understand that if a customer asks for something very specific that in the case of a return would make the guitar hard to sell like some wacky custom finish then the guitar should not be returnable, but why would a guitar not sell if a tone pot was added or the headstock is different from the standard?

With their models they sometimes do it really well like with the Aries and Vader but sometimes just completely miss the mark. Going with the Vanquish for their first multiscale bass was not a good move IMO (as the more standard looking Icon would be a safer bet) and that new headless is such a poor design.

For the record I currently have an order going with Skervesen with a fairly specific finish in mind and they also mentioned that they may not get it exact just so they cover their backs since things don't translate from screen to instrument perfectly. That said, the finish debacle mentioned in this thread was a really .... effort from Kiesel.


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 22, 2017)

I just hit the "preview post" button and see that I wrote an enormous post...and I imagine within the next three posts, someone will make a comment about "the lost post from the fanboy" without reading it. 

I will readily, and freely admit that I'm pretty much a Kiesel fanboy, and my opinions are likely biased...but know my favorite past time is also playing Devil's Advocate...hell, I could argue against myself for hours, and lose to the other side.  I generally try to understand the "why" of things and tend to be optimistic even when there's likely no reason be, or even no reason to think there's actually any logic at play at all. 





laxu said:


> Going with the Vanquish for their first multiscale bass was not a good move IMO (as the more standard looking Icon would be a safer bet) and that new headless is such a poor design.



What's funny is that the whole time he said he was working on the multiscale bass as an Icon, multiple times on video, and even going so far as showing off a prototype neck-through with cutouts for the Hipshot Solo bass bridges...in the end, he wasn't satisfied with the result after multiple tries. I actually respected the hell out of him for that once I made that connection. He spent the R&D, was that close to releasing it...but didn't feel like it was good enough and held it back, completely changing course. It could also be that since the Icon was Dad's design, he just pouted and shouted "You can't tell me what to do anymore, Dad!" and went with one of his designs...but that seems less likely.



laxu said:


> The problem is that what makes something Opt 50 is completely arbitrary and on a model by model basis. I understand that if a customer asks for something very specific that in the case of a return would make the guitar hard to sell like some wacky custom finish then the guitar should not be returnable, but why would a guitar not sell if a tone pot was added or the headstock is different from the standard?



As far as returns, TLDR: I agree with you in the 6th paragraph below. Ha! It's late, I'm tired but can't sleep, and just read every post in this thread.


I actually wouldn't mind if they narrowed down the list of returnable options to be just what they have on the web now. When they started their 10-day return policy, they had a tiny fraction of the options they do now...and not just aesthetic options either...they now offer neck thicknesses, scale length on many models, etc. Before, at worst, you'd see in-stocks with variations in fretboard radius, frets, and neck finish...anything else was cosmetic, and they had a much smaller number of models available. You know how sometimes it's hard to choose what to order at a restaurant with a 30-page menu compared to a place that only offers 3 things and 1 of them is a can of Coke, but you're still satisfied with what you order? If you know something is only available in a small handful of ways, you're more likely to take that less risky "leap of faith" on a returned instrument (which not all of their in-stock builds are, anyways) because you know what you're going to get for the most part. You would say "surprise me" and still be fairly confident that you'll get something within a small window of flexibility.


It may not seem like it's expanded much beyond fancy tops or color-shifting bursts, but consider that when you bought in-stock CT just a few years ago, you knew that it was 99.99% a mahogany body. They since opened it up to have ash, koa, etc. When the SH550 was launched, it could ONLY be had with a flamed maple top or higher...now you can get it with Cedar, plain maple, etc. Also, before, almost every variation of pickup layout was it's own model (DC127, DC135, DC145, DC200, DC400) so their product line was artificially inflated anyway.

Now, the "Vader" is just one model name, but with that one name, it's available in 3 different string counts, three scales for the 6 and 7 and two for the 8. Right there it's already 8 variations, all called "Vader". Go to the pickguardless bolt-ons: Carvin only had two: C66 and Bolt+, each only in one scale, and only in one fret count. Now with the Aries, they are three different string counts, two of them with 3 scale options and the 8 with two, plus the bevel-delete option AND a new 22 fret option in both body styles. So just the name "Aries" means that there's EIGHTEEN different guitars...not including fretboard radius, fret size, fret material and neck finish that were all available before...oh, and potentially in at least 3 different neck thicknesses.

And don't even get me started on the vast array of colors that are available now that never would have even been considered except for some NAMM builds (and if anyone thinks only "Kiesel" now goes overboard with NAMM builds, you've obviously missed such Carvin greats as the airbrushed DC727s, the "Smurf Swirl" Bunny Brunnell bass and the "mosaic" CT6 from years past). I'd totally understand if they limited returnable finishes to the ones they show in the finishes page, and leave everything else as non-returnable...and I kinda even get limiting some of those on a per-model basis (They are NEVER gonna sell a Grabber Blue lefty NS1, for example, but a DC600 would sell fairly easily, I think.).

I also can have an understanding for limiting options available on signature models. It sounds like they leave it up to the artist to decide what options they want to make available. They said Greg Howe's new GH3 24-fret "Bolt" style model is available in more options because he wanted it that way. It starts with a low base price with an alder body, maple neck and a fixed bridge, even though it's not what he plays. Some artists want their model to actually represent what they are about, so they limit the options to what they actually use. And in some cases, it just makes sense to not offer abalone "sperm" inlays on the Jason Becker Numbers guitar because...well...it would be like putting 4-wheel drive on a Corvette.

With aaaaallllllllllllllllllllll of that said...I definitely don't agree with the arbitrary nixing of certain things from the 10-day trial program like adding a tone knob...or limiting pickup options for pickups they have already spent the money to design and engineer but then arbitrarily keep them off some models (like they did for years with their single coil pickups, the split coil bass pickup and the music man-style humbucker bass pickup).  Totally perplexing, but at least they started offering HSS, HSH, SSS etc on more models.



laxu said:


> Yeah. It is a bit silly that some of the logo options are extra when given the choice people would probably opt for no logo at all.



No, I don't think most people would want no logo on their guitar. As much as people harp on Carvin/Kiesel resale, imagine if they had no logo.  A guitar without a logo might as well be a kit guitar. Yes, I understand that some folks are willing to spend big bucks on a nice Warmoth build, or a nice Strat with a replacement neck...that's not the majority of the guitar-buying public. Besides...every custom and semi-custom builder I know of charges more for logo designs and materials that cost more to make. Hell, Moniker charges you $75 just to change the font, and Halo even charges you to put your own signature on it.  On the kiesel logo, you can pick black or white options for free. Nobody should need any more than that, right? You want abalone, metallic, or the drop-shadows that basically use two logos? Those cost extra. I don't get the hate for offering up options and charging for those that cost more to actually provide.




Hollowway said:


> I guess he can charge whatever he wants, as the market will set the actual prices, but dang! That's a lot of upcharge for changing the color of stain!



This comment was in regards to the Pink Candy finish on the Chris Letchford sig model. To be clear, it's not just "changing the color of the stain." heck, most of what Kiesel does isn't even stain at all...it's transparent paint. Just a spray on translucent colored paint. The "Candy" finshes goes from being a few minutes in the booth from their spray paint guy who likely makes much less than their co-owner, to being a hand-applied dye that takes multiple steps, and can't simply be cured in a UV booth between coats like the sprayed-on paints can.

Do I think that the upcharge is high? Yes. It's at least partially justifiable.



Señor Voorhees;4693383 said:


> The Letchford sig seems fairly pointless to me, which is obviously just an opinion. One of the few legitimate benefits to a headless is a compact design.



Note: I don't like the new model at all. But I "get" some of the appeal of it. There are other benefits of a headless: it's still 6" shorter than even their most compact headstock for the 6 (more for the 7 and 8)*, it's less neck-heavy, and the neck is stiffer. (Try bending a new pencil...easy, right? Now take off some material from the end. It's a little harder to bend it now, right?). This model has two benefits: it doesn't look like a toy, and the forearm contour drop-off is a little further away from the bridge compared to the Vader, so there's some more body to rest your arm on if you're into that sort of thing.** 

*Here's the CL8 compared to a DCM8. Still smaller by basically the full length of the headstock, and the weight of 8 tuners and the wood isn't hanging out at the unsupported end of the neck.







**Here's the CL8 vs the V8M. Almost the same size, body-wise.









Lorcan Ward said:


> Chris said it comes with a Duncan Pegasus/Sentient set so I presume that will start being an option on all the Vaders and Aries multiscales too?



They started offering 4 different SD pickups on all of their multiscales a few months ago (SD has been slow to fulfill those orders, however). There are a number of guitars that are finished and awaiting the pickups for weeks now. because of the specific scale and neutral fret location, SD has to wind the pickups on some Kiesel pickup parts to get the angle to match.



Lorcan Ward said:


> Looks like its Set neck construction. Is that a first of Carvin/Kiesel?



Set _through_, technically...or "deep set". It extends all the way to the front of the BRIDGE pickup. "Tone of the set neck, sculpted unfettered neck access of a neck-through" is their sales pitch.



Fathand said:


> Now where's that 24 fret Bolt on strat that Greg Howe was flashing in a video on his Facebook.



As of today, now available in H-H pickup config!! Very cool that it can come in lower-spec woods and other bridges, etc.



Konstantine said:


> But.. Butttt, staining burl teal is impossible!! Jeff weasel said so!!! oh.. wait... no, they just screw over and spit in the face of customers who ask for things like that who aren't big name artists. I asked for teal stain like that and Jeff just spray paints the burl top on my dc700 white and when I point this out to them... he tells me to deal with it. He then throws a complete temper tantrum when I put him on blast for it after, banning me from ever ordering one of their turds again. Hilarious.



I have to assume they tried it and it didn't work until they found a way to do it that works for them and felt Ok with one leaving the factory with their name on it. Just like metal flake finishes, buckeye tops, wenge, multiscale, headless trem, etc...all things they said they wouldn't do.

I hate to dig up old news, but I'd like to read about your experience as it definitely sucks!! Can you provide a link? From that one paragraph, only thing I could rationalize is if you asked for "stain", specifically...but I admit that is quite a stretch of logic for me to come to the only reason they would say "no" besides doing it before and not liking the results. That's not stain and they likely still can't stain it. That looks like translucent paint...a totally different process. Buckey and spalted maple likely don't stain well because they are likely filled with glues and stabilizers...but they can be painted with translucent paints all day. I can imagine anything with knots not staining well.



Hollowway said:


> Not to get all nostalgic, but Carvin used to talk about the company as "we," because it was a family company that treated its employees and customers as part of the family. Now when you hear Jeff talk about it, he says things like, "stop by my booth at NAMM," and it makes me wonder what Mark and the other people think about Jeff acting as if it is his company. It's a bittersweet thing for me, because I love the guitars, the quality, and many of the guys there. But I feel like it's gone to Jeff's head, and he's got a completely different mindset than the company that he inherited. But at the same time, I like that he's listening to the niche players now.



I agree with every word of this. It bugs me to no end, all of the "me/I/myself" stuff. Take pride in the entire team. I do appreciate that the last guitar of the old factory that he made for his dad has the signatures of all of the employees on it. I thought that was a great idea and a tribute to the team.

"And look at this cool finish I did on this model I designed...oh, and only I do this aspect...and because only I do it, it's only available on $3000+ instruments"


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## MikeH (Jan 22, 2017)

The Vanquish series is so damn ugly. Holy cow.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jan 22, 2017)

So, within the past few hours, a whole slew of guitarists have announced that they are "joining the Kiesel Guitars family".

What a load of post-NAMM rubbish.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2017)

Me likey.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jan 24, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Kiesel deals with returns for legit quality concerns, and thats all they really need to do IMO. The fact you can order so much already with a 10-day no questions asked period is pretty good in comparison to basically every other company. Name companies that do more than that.



Figured I'd throw in my own 2 cents now that I just went through this 

Ordered a K series 6 string last year and got it in before the holidays to some annoying flaws in the fretwork that needed to be rectified. Chris was super helpful and had me send it back in for a quick fix and it seemed everything worked out. The guitar came back worse with some pretty deep dings in the neck and scuffs in the gloss of the body. Long story short, they offered to steam out the dents and refinish the body so it'd be up to spec. But I didn't feel like paying top dollar for a guitar that needed repairs right out the gate, especially due to negligence by whoever handled it. Got my money back a few days ago, so at least it's over.

Heres what happened, I waited a week after new years, 2 weeks or so waiting on a resolution at that point pretty much. After being offered to steam out the dings and etc, a second time I decided to just request a refund. Didn't feel like waiting for a rebuild, nor did I want to keep a guitar that went through all that damage and needed repairs. I end up having to get into contact with Jeff himself and he denies me the refund and states that the K series are nonrefundable. 

Unfortunately for them, opt 50 doesn't work as a carpet term to cover their own mistakes up. Pushed it further, even had to mention that I would chargeback if I really needed to get this over with before being offered a full refund. I wish I could say that was these issues were the only things wrong with this specific build, but it wasn't. Story for another day, the twin K series my friend and I ordered (Same specs, different top) came out perfect whereas mine didn't. Bums me out at the end of the day because my other Koa K7 and Vader 8 are ....ing killer, but can't recommend them myself anymore after dealing with this option 50 crap.

Their option 50 policy generally makes sense, since it covers them from buyer's remorse. But you simply cannot use it to sweep up dirt you put out under the rug, just doesn't work like that and it would never fly if someone decided to challenge that like I did.


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Figured I'd throw in my own 2 cents now that I just went through this
> 
> Ordered a K series 6 string last year and got it in before the holidays to some annoying flaws in the fretwork that needed to be rectified. Chris was super helpful and had me send it back in for a quick fix and it seemed everything worked out. The guitar came back worse with some pretty deep dings in the neck and scuffs in the gloss of the body. Long story short, they offered to steam out the dents and refinish the body so it'd be up to spec. But I didn't feel like paying top dollar for a guitar that needed repairs right out the gate, especially due to negligence by whoever handled it. Got my money back a few days ago, so at least it's over.
> 
> ...



The main takeaway I get from that is that Kiesel doesn't know how to build a guitar that's road ready off the factory floor.


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## blacai (Jan 24, 2017)

bostjan said:


> The main takeaway I get from that is that Kiesel doesn't know how to build a guitar that's road ready off the factory floor.



This. I've already read some threads from people having to send the guitar at least once for a re-adjustment/re-finish.

Maybe they have short waiting list because they don't care that much about small details and if the buyer complaints they do their job the way it should have been done from the beginning.

I am living in Europe, so Kiesel's are not my target but I would try to order a custom if I was "sure" it would be fine when I get it the first time. I cannot send it overseas if I have to pay shipping+customs twice.


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## laxu (Jan 24, 2017)

blacai said:


> This. I've already read some threads from people having to send the guitar at least once for a re-adjustment/re-finish.
> 
> Maybe they have short waiting list because they don't care that much about small details and if the buyer complaints they do their job the way it should have been done from the beginning.
> 
> I am living in Europe, so Kiesel's are not my target but I would try to order a custom if I was "sure" it would be fine when I get it the first time. I cannot send it overseas if I have to pay shipping+customs twice.



For the record you shouldn't have to pay customs twice as if you send something for repair you should be able to avoid the customs. Even when returning the guitar you should be able to get taxes back. That's at least how it goes in Finland but I don't know if it is different where you live.

My AM7 had some minor cosmetic issues and I received a small refund from Kiesel for that. The issues were something that could have been easily caught at the factory so I don't know why their QA department didn't do their job or they considered it good enough. Still very happy with the guitar even after shipping and taxes.


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## jerm (Jan 24, 2017)

bostjan said:


> The main takeaway I get from that is that Kiesel doesn't know how to build a guitar that's road ready off the factory floor.


What do you mean by this?

I'd had my Carvin DC700 for around 2 years and I've had no problems with it


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## technomancer (Jan 24, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Figured I'd throw in my own 2 cents now that I just went through this
> 
> Ordered a K series 6 string last year and got it in before the holidays to some annoying flaws in the fretwork that needed to be rectified. Chris was super helpful and had me send it back in for a quick fix and it seemed everything worked out. The guitar came back worse with some pretty deep dings in the neck and scuffs in the gloss of the body. Long story short, they offered to steam out the dents and refinish the body so it'd be up to spec. But I didn't feel like paying top dollar for a guitar that needed repairs right out the gate, especially due to negligence by whoever handled it. Got my money back a few days ago, so at least it's over.
> 
> ...



Damn that sucks as if that is the one I remember you posting pics of that had an amazing top on it too 



bostjan said:


> The main takeaway I get from that is that Kiesel doesn't know how to build a guitar that's road ready off the factory floor.



Really? I took it more that they have hit or miss QC and to never buy something you can't return from them. Lots of people have gotten fantastic guitars from them (the Vader 6 I had was smoking, and the walnut Holdsworth I had was killer except for some cosmetic issues).


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## Semi-pro (Jan 24, 2017)

bostjan said:


> The main takeaway I get from that is that Kiesel doesn't know how to build a guitar that's road ready off the factory floor.



I bought an in-stock hardtail Aries 7-string one year ago and right off the case it was my main workhorse guitar (touring with 2 bands, rehearsals, home recording) until I got into 8-strings just a while ago. Literally had to do nothing else to it than change strings since getting it. I guess I got lucky 

This comes from a dude with no fanboy feelings, playing a bunch of different brands (and funnily enough the Kiesel just isn't one of them atm because of different specs for my needs).

The picture they're painting with handling QC issues / refunds doesn't seem to be the prettiest though...


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## blacai (Jan 24, 2017)

laxu said:


> For the record you shouldn't have to pay customs twice as if you send something for repair you should be able to avoid the customs. Even when returning the guitar you should be able to get taxes back. That's at least how it goes in Finland but I don't know if it is different where you live.
> 
> My AM7 had some minor cosmetic issues and I received a small refund from Kiesel for that. The issues were something that could have been easily caught at the factory so I don't know why their QA department didn't do their job or they considered it good enough. Still very happy with the guitar even after shipping and taxes.



Good to know. I have always bad times with the custom office in Germany. I might be unlucky, but even small books are caught if it goes over 25&#8364;(more or less, I don't remember the exact amount).

How do I proceed with customs for a return? 
Who pays the shipment to kiesel?
How do they avoid the customs catching again the package and applying feeds?


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Really? I took it more that they have hit or miss QC and to never buy something you can't return from them. Lots of people have gotten fantastic guitars from them (the Vader 6 I had was smoking, and the walnut Holdsworth I had was killer except for some cosmetic issues).



If they ship you a guitar that's unplayable, and you return it for repair, and it comes back worse, then, yeah, that's my takeaway from the story.

I understand mistakes happen. Kiesel is a big company making a lot of guitars. So they shipped out a dud, no biggie. But then he returned the guitar- at that point in time, the company should have paid a lot of attention to make sure they got this right, but they dropped the ball again, showing that either: a) they are dealing with too large a volume of repairs to put special attention into this, or b) they just didn't care. Either way, that's my conclusion.

I think we've seen at least a handful of these stories already. I'm not saying not to buy a Kiesel, just that I won't.


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## Hollowway (Jan 25, 2017)

@Jonathan - Damn dude, that sucks. Those K series guitars are their high end ones, so you'd think you'd get the red carpet treatment. The main problem I see here is Jeff's walking over dollars to pick up pennies. When given the opportunity to make this right, and over-deliver, they could have returned it in stellar condition and thrown in something else to compensate you for your troubles. Maybe a coupon for a future build, maybe just case candy and t shirt/hat, etc. They SNAFUed that opportunity, which wasn't the end of the world, but for Jeff to tell you that your buying the most expensive product from them was going to get you the least customer service was just crazy. He could have done above and beyond (aka given you the refund, and asked if he could prove to you how good they are, and given a discount on a new build, or the opportunity to spec out the latest model and get a free top upgrade, etc) but instead he violated your trust, and lost a customer. And likely you are going to tell others, and now this will cost them far more than any minor discount or swag offered would have.

Fortunately, I have never had this experience with them, but it does feel a little like Russian Roulette.


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## laxu (Jan 25, 2017)

blacai said:


> Good to know. I have always bad times with the custom office in Germany. I might be unlucky, but even small books are caught if it goes over 25(more or less, I don't remember the exact amount).
> 
> How do I proceed with customs for a return?
> How pays the shipment to kiesel?
> How do they avoid the customs catching again the package and applying feeds?



I don't know about sending back to Kiesel as I haven't done it but here in Finland you essentially inform the customs that you are returning the item and they should refund VAT at least or if you have to send it back for a repair when it comes back you inform the customs that it was a repair and show them that you paid the customs taxes before.


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## Siggevaio (Jan 25, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> instead he violated your trust, and lost a customer. And likely you are going to tell others
> 
> Fortunately, I have never had this experience with them, but it does feel a little like Russian Roulette.



I bet he has lost a lot of customers because of his poor way of dealing with this kind of stuff. I'm in the market for a new, quite expensive guitar, and Kiesel isn't even an option anymore. 

With that said, I'm sure most guitars come out great from Kiesel. But I feel like in the end it's how they handle the guitars that don't that matter the most.


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## cardinal (Jan 25, 2017)

On the one hand their return policy is pretty remarkable. Not sure of any other guitar company that lets you return a custom-spec'd guitar without even losing a deposit. But if he's going to offer the policy, then obviously they should honor it. 

Seems like they'd be better off ending the return policy but actually making sure every guitar meets their QC specs. Of course, ending the return policy but not ensuring QC would be a disaster.

I'd also be hard to announce the change. "No more returns, but don't worry b/c we're going to start acting like we care about our products now!"


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## Brodolio (Jan 25, 2017)

I don't know if you already talked about it (too many posts to read ), but it seems that kiesel will join the musikmesse event in Germany this year. 
So, at last, also European guys will have the chance to put their hands on kiesel guitars.
I cant wait for that


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## blacai (Jan 25, 2017)

Brodolio said:


> I don't know if you already talked about it (too many posts to read ), but it seems that kiesel will join the musikmesse event in Germany this year.
> So, at last, also European guys will have the chance to put their hands on kiesel guitars.
> I cant wait for that



I'll be there


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 25, 2017)

Man every kiesel thread around here anymore devolves into ....ting on kiesel. I'm not a fanboy of kiesel's but seeing threads like these paints Kiesel in a somewhat unfair light as the guys who got burnt crawl out of the woodwork everytime. yeah jeff did some dickish stuff or says dumb stuff, but I think there's plenty of people that don't cruise this forum that enjoy their guitars and could attest to their builds being pretty damn good. 
My VM8 turned out really well in terms of finish, playability, and aesthetics. I'm not as big a fan of the Lithiums as I was when I got it (they feel a little underpowered compared to a c-pig or M8 lol) but other than that I love my VM8. It was my first higher end guitar and even after trying a couple of other guitar at a similar price range it's still my favorite.


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## Hollowway (Jan 25, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Man every kiesel thread around here anymore devolves into ....ting on kiesel. I'm not a fanboy of kiesel's but seeing threads like these paints Kiesel in a somewhat unfair light as the guys who got burnt crawl out of the woodwork everytime. yeah jeff did some dickish stuff or says dumb stuff, but I think there's plenty of people that don't cruise this forum that enjoy their guitars and could attest to their builds being pretty damn good.
> My VM8 turned out really well in terms of finish, playability, and aesthetics. I'm not as big a fan of the Lithiums as I was when I got it (they feel a little underpowered compared to a c-pig or M8 lol) but other than that I love my VM8. It was my first higher end guitar and even after trying a couple of other guitar at a similar price range it's still my favorite.



Yeah, that's kind of true, and it's definitely a unique situation with this company. But, there was a change in the attitude and policies when Jeff took over, and I think that's what made a bigger deal. Had this always been the way of the company, people wouldn't be as up in arms as the fact that there was such a big change from Mark to Jeff. Not all of it bad, but a change none-the-less.

And their options are many, so it's quite possible to spec out a guitar that is either garish or not what you pictured. I think that leads to people wanting to send things back. There used to be fewer options, and therefore less odds of getting something you didn't like (for non-QC issues). And, of course, there are growing pains. 

But generally, yeah, the vast, vast majority of guitars are probably excellent. But that's the thing - from a business standpoint one has to realize that happy customers will be silent, but an unhappy customer will tell everyone.


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## ncfiala (Jan 25, 2017)

I have six Carvin/Kiesel guitars (five branded Carvin and one Kiesel) and I've been very satisfied with all of them. That being said, I would never do an option 50 so I would be able to send it back for a refund.

I'm sure there are horror stories out there, but I think all in all their products are pretty good. You can get a semi-custom guitar in a fairly short amount of time for a very reasonable price. As long as you don't do an option 50, you can send it back for a refund no questions asked. To me this sounds like a better deal than taking a big gamble with some of the other builders.

To me the Carvin horror stories are kind of like the stuff you read online after a new video game console comes out. You'd probably be thinking that a huge percentage of the consoles were defective, but in reality it is a very small percentage.


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## Hollowway (Jan 25, 2017)

ncfiala said:


> As long as you don't do an option 50, you can send it back for a refund no questions asked.



Well, in theory, but that's what we're talking about in this thread. Apparently the K series guitars are non returnable. And if you bring up being unhappy on a public forum Jeff may rescind the return policy. And if you return a guitar, and order another one, the second one is not returnable. So, I think that's why people get skittish about them. If it were just option 50s that were non returnable, I think most people would be cool with it. But then again, some option 50 guitars ARE returnable, so who even knows what the real policy is. That's why, of the 4 Carvins/Kiesels I've had, I've only ordered in-stock guitars. I'm just too scared that I'd call to return, and something will have changed, and I'd be blocked. Buying in stock (or, back in the day, an in store model) allows me to get a guitar that looks really cool, in terms of unique specs, without having to roll the dice on getting a crappy top, etc.

Also, on the topic of other luthiers not allowing a return.... It's true, but there are steps in the middle that (may) make it less scary. When I've ordered customs in the past, I usually have communication with the luthier that allows me to see, or choose, the cut of wood for the top. And some practice stain colors on woods. And where I want the controls (drawn up on the guitar). So it's way less likely that I'd be pissed that my flamed top isn't very flamey, or that my stain color isn't what I wanted. With Kiesel, you order, and it's a black box for 8 weeks, and a guitar shows up. That can be scary if you envision a finish or wood cut that isn't what you end up getting. I understand why they cannot, but I think that's the reason for a lot of this.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 25, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Well, in theory, but that's what we're talking about in this thread. Apparently the K series guitars are non returnable. And if you bring up being unhappy on a public forum Jeff may rescind the return policy. And if you return a guitar, and order another one, the second one is not returnable. So, I think that's why people get skittish about them. If it were just option 50s that were non returnable, I think most people would be cool with it. But then again, some option 50 guitars ARE returnable, so who even knows what the real policy is. That's why, of the 4 Carvins/Kiesels I've had, I've only ordered in-stock guitars. I'm just too scared that I'd call to return, and something will have changed, and I'd be blocked. Buying in stock (or, back in the day, an in store model) allows me to get a guitar that looks really cool, in terms of unique specs, without having to roll the dice on getting a crappy top, etc.
> 
> Also, on the topic of other luthiers not allowing a return.... It's true, but there are steps in the middle that (may) make it less scary. When I've ordered customs in the past, I usually have communication with the luthier that allows me to see, or choose, the cut of wood for the top. And some practice stain colors on woods. And where I want the controls (drawn up on the guitar). So it's way less likely that I'd be pissed that my flamed top isn't very flamey, or that my stain color isn't what I wanted. With Kiesel, you order, and it's a black box for 8 weeks, and a guitar shows up. That can be scary if you envision a finish or wood cut that isn't what you end up getting. I understand why they cannot, but I think that's the reason for a lot of this.



I was so nervous that I wouldn't get a good top since they don't send pics of the builds, but the flamed maple on my guitar is excellent. I cruise their instagram and some other groups to see other people's builds and they almost always deliver on tops from what I've seen. They source way better flame maple than strandberg does at the WMI factory anyways :/


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## schwiz (Jan 25, 2017)

Since this has turned into a "post your Kiesel story", I'll share mine.

I ordered the first left handed AM7 out of shop. You right handed players have it lucky. ALL left handed models that are made to your spec, are non-refundable. I waited the 3 months until I saw my guitar pop up on their Instagram feed, but with chrome hardware instead of black hardware. I commented on the photo letting them know I was bummed and within 5 minutes Mickey had DM'd me asking how he would make it right. I ended up paying an additional $50 to get black hardware on the guitar, instead of chrome. At the end of the day, what's $50 when you're spending a hell of a lot more than that? 

When I received the guitar, it was exactly what I had envisioned. Not 1 flaw. The frets were leveled and dressed to perfection, and the guitar was setup wonderfully (which is surprising since it traveled to the humidity of MN).

I'd buy another one in a heartbeat... and probably will after my wedding.

Anyways, the new CL model is fkin ugly as sin, and the new Vanquish multi-scale is hawt af.


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## laxu (Jan 25, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Also, on the topic of other luthiers not allowing a return.... It's true, but there are steps in the middle that (may) make it less scary. When I've ordered customs in the past, I usually have communication with the luthier that allows me to see, or choose, the cut of wood for the top. And some practice stain colors on woods. And where I want the controls (drawn up on the guitar). So it's way less likely that I'd be pissed that my flamed top isn't very flamey, or that my stain color isn't what I wanted. With Kiesel, you order, and it's a black box for 8 weeks, and a guitar shows up. That can be scary if you envision a finish or wood cut that isn't what you end up getting. I understand why they cannot, but I think that's the reason for a lot of this.



AFAIK you can ask Kiesel to let you pick a top. They'll send you a few photos and you take your pick. It will cost extra though. My experience is also that they are willing to try to match something like a picture if you send them one, again for a fee. Although I was ordering a standard color, I sent them a Photoshop mockup of the guitar I wanted them to build as I had some specifics in mind and they delivered pretty much exactly that. I asked for darker red mahogany (no extra charge) and they added that to the specs so the guys building it choose something that looks about the right color. Another option would have been to stain it for a small extra fee. So they are willing to do a lot but it will all add up with some extra costs.

You have to remember that they are a semi-custom shop that works on the basis of having set CNC templates for various models and that is what allows their fast turn-around times. Adding customization for things like control positions means someone will have to drill all the holes by hand (well, drill press), possibly enlarge the electronics cavity etc. Even if it is a relatively quick job, it does take time and disrupts their production line a bit so that's why they try to avoid doing that.

Of course working with a single luthier or small shop is going to be different. Usually it also means a much higher price and a turn-around time of nearly a year, maybe even several for a luthier who is very popular. The end result will surely be better in the finer details but perhaps not to the degree of several thousand dollars more.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jan 25, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Damn that sucks as if that is the one I remember you posting pics of that had an amazing top on it too



Yeah it's a real shame, since I was in the market for a multiscale 6 for lower tunings and I really wanted this guitar to kick ass but unfortunately turned out negatively. It was that burled redwood topped guitar for reference, he actually put it up at NAMM on display at their booth.



bostjan said:


> If they ship you a guitar that's unplayable, and you return it for repair, and it comes back worse, then, yeah, that's my takeaway from the story.
> 
> I understand mistakes happen. Kiesel is a big company making a lot of guitars. So they shipped out a dud, no biggie. But then he returned the guitar- at that point in time, the company should have paid a lot of attention to make sure they got this right, but they dropped the ball again, showing that either: a) they are dealing with too large a volume of repairs to put special attention into this, or b) they just didn't care. Either way, that's my conclusion.
> 
> I think we've seen at least a handful of these stories already. I'm not saying not to buy a Kiesel, just that I won't.



Everyone makes mistakes, to me it's all in how it's handled. That's why I didn't go on here and announce to the world about the first few issues I had. I really only felt like talking about it, because I'm sure other people in the future might be stuck in a similar scenario and having a reference point will help.



Hollowway said:


> @Jonathan - Damn dude, that sucks. Those K series guitars are their high end ones, so you'd think you'd get the red carpet treatment. The main problem I see here is Jeff's walking over dollars to pick up pennies. When given the opportunity to make this right, and over-deliver, they could have returned it in stellar condition and thrown in something else to compensate you for your troubles. Maybe a coupon for a future build, maybe just case candy and t shirt/hat, etc. They SNAFUed that opportunity, which wasn't the end of the world, but for Jeff to tell you that your buying the most expensive product from them was going to get you the least customer service was just crazy. He could have done above and beyond (aka given you the refund, and asked if he could prove to you how good they are, and given a discount on a new build, or the opportunity to spec out the latest model and get a free top upgrade, etc) but instead he violated your trust, and lost a customer. And likely you are going to tell others, and now this will cost them far more than any minor discount or swag offered would have.
> 
> Fortunately, I have never had this experience with them, but it does feel a little like Russian Roulette.



Yeah and to be completely fair I don't expect special treatment in that situation, but no one should have to wait weeks to be given a generic response. Then be told that's your only option before being presented with a halfway decent solution. And yeah it is truly his loss entirely, Chris Hong and I had been in talks of my next two builds and it bums him out that things happened the way they did. 

Oh yeah and funnily enough, not that it was 100% clear in the first place, but I'm apparently barred from placing future orders AFAIK 



schwiz said:


> Since this has turned into a "post your Kiesel story", I'll share mine.
> 
> I ordered the first left handed AM7 out of shop. You right handed players have it lucky. ALL left handed models that are made to your spec, are non-refundable. I waited the 3 months until I saw my guitar pop up on their Instagram feed, but with chrome hardware instead of black hardware. I commented on the photo letting them know I was bummed and within 5 minutes Mickey had DM'd me asking how he would make it right. I ended up paying an additional $50 to get black hardware on the guitar, instead of chrome. At the end of the day, what's $50 when you're spending a hell of a lot more than that?



So they charged you for a spec that you ordered initially and didn't get? Or did you not request black hardware in the initial spec?

Jeff tried doing that to my guitar that I mentioned a few posts back, I spec'd out the Redwood Burl KM6 with a Blackburst finish. And I caught it on a live stream with no finish and all of the hardware ready to go, messaged both Jeff and Chris and an hour later Jeff tells me that's how it is and it wouldn't be possible to apply the finish.

He cited that he felt the guitar looked better without the finish, which isn't how these things work. A bit of back and forth and Jeff says that it would be a lot of extra labor and he normally charges *$600* for this kind of work but he'll do it for only $200. So I nearly just cancelled my order and ate the deposit, and he decides to do it how I initially specced the guitar. 

If you were paid to build something to spec, and you mess up or change something without your customer's consent. You NEVER charge your customer extra to make it right. I'm really surprised they charged you $50 to change the hardware.


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## BouhZik (Jan 25, 2017)

schwiz said:


> I ended up paying an additional $50 to get black hardware on the guitar, instead of chrome.



I don't get it. black hardware is 30$. had you pay for it in the first place? 
I don't understand where the 50 come from, even less if the fault is on their end.


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## schwiz (Jan 25, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> So they charged you for a spec that you ordered initially and didn't get? Or did you not request black hardware in the initial spec?



Good question! I ended up going back to the spec sheet that I printed out when I ordered the guitar, and apparently I didn't specify, so that was indeed my own fault.

Out the few people I've seen have mishaps with their Kiesel's, you seem to have handled it most professionally. Bummer that things didn't go well for you on that 6 string.



BouhZik said:


> I don't get it. black hardware is 30$. had you pay for it in the first place?
> I don't understand where the 50 come from, even less if the fault is on their end.



Well if you make changes after so many days after the initial purchase, they do charge an additional fee. He waived the $30 for the black hardware, and just charged me for the change fee.


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## laxu (Jan 25, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Jeff tried doing that to my guitar that I mentioned a few posts back, I spec'd out the Redwood Burl KM6 with a Blackburst finish. And I caught it on a live stream with no finish and all of the hardware ready to go, messaged both Jeff and Chris and an hour later Jeff tells me that's how it is and it wouldn't be possible to apply the finish.
> 
> He cited that he felt the guitar looked better without the finish, which isn't how these things work. A bit of back and forth and Jeff says that it would be a lot of extra labor and he normally charges *$600* for this kind of work but he'll do it for only $200. So I nearly just cancelled my order and ate the deposit, and he decides to do it how I initially specced the guitar.
> 
> If you were paid to build something to spec, and you mess up or change something without your customer's consent. You NEVER charge your customer extra to make it right.



Yeah, that is grade A bull..... Either Kiesel should have just done it or consulted with you beforehand if they were concerned it would not look good.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 25, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yeah it's a real shame, since I was in the market for a multiscale 6 for lower tunings and I really wanted this guitar to kick ass but unfortunately turned out negatively. It was that burled redwood topped guitar for reference, he actually put it up at NAMM on display at their booth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This sounds an aweful lot like "worm holes add character." (Oh, strictly 7... I'm surprised they still exist.)

I don't ....ing care what Jeff likes/thinks looks better, I want it done my way. Jeff has .... taste anyway.


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## Hollowway (Jan 25, 2017)

laxu said:


> AFAIK you can ask Kiesel to let you pick a top. They'll send you a few photos and you take your pick. It will cost extra though. My experience is also that they are willing to try to match something like a picture if you send them one, again for a fee. Although I was ordering a standard color, I sent them a Photoshop mockup of the guitar I wanted them to build as I had some specifics in mind and they delivered pretty much exactly that. I asked for darker red mahogany (no extra charge) and they added that to the specs so the guys building it choose something that looks about the right color. Another option would have been to stain it for a small extra fee. So they are willing to do a lot but it will all add up with some extra costs.
> 
> You have to remember that they are a semi-custom shop that works on the basis of having set CNC templates for various models and that is what allows their fast turn-around times. Adding customization for things like control positions means someone will have to drill all the holes by hand (well, drill press), possibly enlarge the electronics cavity etc. Even if it is a relatively quick job, it does take time and disrupts their production line a bit so that's why they try to avoid doing that.
> 
> Of course working with a single luthier or small shop is going to be different. Usually it also means a much higher price and a turn-around time of nearly a year, maybe even several for a luthier who is very popular. The end result will surely be better in the finer details but perhaps not to the degree of several thousand dollars more.



Yeah, the pick-your-own-top and photomatch are automatic non-return things, though. Not that it's a deal breaker, but it just adds nerves to the whole thing. Like, if I were going to do a photo match top, and I saw that whitewashed one that Jeff said looked exactly like the aquaburst finish, I'd be a little nervous about asking for it. But obviously there are huge advantages of getting a Kiesel over a small luthier. For one thing, at least you can pretty much guarantee you'll GET a guitar. I have BRJ to thank for not even delivering on that.  Bottom line is that Kiesel is often the best option for getting what you want in a reasonable custom. I think the frustrating thing is that it could be so much better, but you get Jeff in there nickel and diming everything, and it just puts a bad taste in your mouth. 

Another thing that was hugely questionable is the cracked tops they put out. On the kiesel bbs there are a bunch of guys (who are the biggest fanboys ever, so it's not like they're on a witch hunt) who were getting super vocal about these bent tops that cracked, and Jeff was insistent that they were not cracked, but it was just figuring in the wood. I mean, I'd be pissed if I ordered a $4000 K series, it had a cracked top, and I wasn't allowed to return it. They actually started a thread about it over there. I just don't get why all the drama, and the company can't say that they're cracked, and they are trying to figure out how to avoid it, etc. etc. Anyway, the cracks were happening in the burl and walnut. Here are a couple of pictures of the tops in question:


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## mphsc (Jan 25, 2017)

^ that's awful.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 25, 2017)

For the sake of entertainment do you have a link to those threads? That's rich 

I have seen slabs of burled wood with fissures like that though.


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## kevdes93 (Jan 25, 2017)

Wow, that's unbelievable. Those are CLEARLY cracked.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 25, 2017)

it adds character doe


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## spudmunkey (Jan 25, 2017)

I don't think it was ever claimed to be figuring...it was initially though by folks that there's a chance it could be (some are less clear than others), but as more came through it was apparent that they WERE cracks. If I remember right, some folks were told when they ordered the Buckeye tops that there was a chance it could crack...so at least it sounds like they were telling some customers up-front that it was a possibility with this wood.

In my own opinion, it's the fault of the shape of their forearm contour which is one sharp "crease", rather than a gentle curved drop. Soften that bent, and you could have non-cracked forearm contours all day.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jan 25, 2017)

I think it's interesting that they pitched fits about vader drop tops being impossible for a year and thus wouldn't do it, but they'll put tops they know would crack on their premium model.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 25, 2017)

yeah those are definitely cracked. I might be fine with it if they fully disclose that it might crack before hand. If I was expecting a non-cracked top then that would be unacceptable.


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## ramses (Jan 26, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Anyway, the cracks were happening in the burl



I believe that it is not possible to bend buckeye burl without cracking it.


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## jwade (Jan 26, 2017)

I don't know why I ever bother click on a Kiessel thread. Jeff is such a scumbag about everything, and his presence is rapidly destroying Carvins previously flawless image. I was dying of jealousy of everybody posting their DC800s years ago, and I went back and forth on specs (it would've probably been based on Emils white PRS7), but had things come up that stopped me. 

I had always seen Carvin as this super reliable company that always produced really incredible workhorse guitars/amps, but when Jeff popped up, their entire public face became this rude, ego-centric fratboy vibe, and the more things I hear about his everyday interactions with customers has fully cemented it for me that I can't see any way to justify supporting a company that treats customers like they do, and how the guy constantly lies about things for no reason. It's sad that one guy can poison a company so fully.


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## Hollowway (Jan 26, 2017)

wannabguitarist said:


> For the sake of entertainment do you have a link to those threads? That's rich
> 
> I have seen slabs of burled wood with fissures like that though.



Yeah, here's the thread. Some of the guys there started the thread because the discussion of the cracked tops was popping up in a number of different threads.

http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=47965

And I was wrong about there being a crack in a walnut top - it was koa.

And yeah, buckeye is notorious for being replete with cracks and holes. On FB when someone asked about the cracks in these he said that when they find a crack they fill it with filler. But then everyone was wondering if he means cracks BEFORE the guitar is made, or after. And either way, if they fill the cracks they find, how did they not find those rather obvious cracks? 

To me it's an academic argument, because those are all K series instruments, and I'm not able to spend $5000 on a guitar (though those are beautiful!). But I agree that it would suck to get a $5000 non returnable guitar that wasn't what you hoped it would be.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 26, 2017)

Speaking of cracks, I was checking the in-stock guitars tonight and found this one. 
http://www.kieselguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/135268b.jpg

Other than what seems, to me, like cracks and tool marks, it's an awesome looking guitar. Or is that their take on distressed finish? It's an Option-50 by the way, for missing tone knob.


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## Hollowway (Jan 26, 2017)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Speaking of cracks, I was checking the in-stock guitars tonight and found this one.
> http://www.kieselguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/135268b.jpg
> 
> Other than what seems, to me, like cracks and tool marks, it's an awesome looking guitar. Or is that their take on distressed finish? It's an Option-50 by the way, for missing tone knob.



I think that's just the natural character of the wood (if you're talking about the body).

Odd that they made an in stock that cannot be returned because it doesn't have a tone knob, and there's bound to be a Vanquish up that cannot be returned because it HAS a tone knob. People are going to start choosing models based on whether or not they want a tone knob. For a knob that is often regarded as the guitar equivalent of an appendix, the little guy seems to control everything now. Well played, tone knob. Well played.


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## laxu (Jan 26, 2017)

The tone knob thing is ridiculous. It is literally one drilled hole, a pot and some wiring. It has absolutely no bearing on resellability of the instrument, it's not like somebody picked the most garish color scheme or a terrible combination of woods or asked for their initials as an inlay.


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## mnemonic (Jan 26, 2017)

The reason it's an option 50 and thus non-returnable is because they look for any reason these days to revoke the return policy. I wouldn't be surprised if they get rid of it all together at some point in the future, it's clearly what Jeff wants. 

At the end of the day, if someone returns a no-tone-knob guitar, it would take 10 minutes or less to drill the hole and install one. the control cavity route is the same after all, it's literally just one hole and a bit of wire, that's the difference.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2017)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Speaking of cracks, I was checking the in-stock guitars tonight and found this one.
> http://www.kieselguitars.com/images/guitars-in-stock/large/135268b.jpg
> 
> Other than what seems, to me, like cracks and tool marks, it's an awesome looking guitar. Or is that their take on distressed finish? It's an Option-50 by the way, for missing tone knob.


yeah those aren't cracks, that's the grain of the ash. though I do see a gouge or tool mark on the arm contour/bevel..
it's the "antique ash treatment" - personally I think it looks like .... but kiesel really pushes it


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## Snarpaasi (Jan 26, 2017)

With that 70 years of experience they brag about I assume they would have the talent to make guitars with tops that don't crack? I've read that buckeye is like wet cardboard so no wonder why it happens when bent. 

I agree that the brand is sinking since Jeff stepped in. Can't get out of my head that "Jeff Kiesel here, Kiesel Guitars, Carvin Guitars", even though he has skipped the Carvin part lately. There is quite a big risk when executing most of the marketing through a single face.


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## schwiz (Jan 26, 2017)

Snarpaasi said:


> I agree that the brand is sinking since Jeff stepped in.



Yet their business is BOOMING.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Jan 26, 2017)

I get that a few people don't like Jeff's marketing attitudes, but I think most of the complaints I've read about Kiesel/Carvin are when expectations far outweigh reality.

If you want a 100% flawless custom guitar, "Made" in the USA, that defies the laws of physics and what most luthiers are capable of, you are going to have to pay out of the nose for it at a different custom shop with very long wait times.

This in-stock Suhr Burl Top, for example: http://www.soundpure.com/p/suhr-modern-buckeye-burl-african-mahogany-electric-29901/16746

Looking closely, it's a 2 piece top, not a single bent piece. So if Suhr can't do it without cracking, what makes people think Kiesel can? Yet if their customers insist, they warn them and try anyways.

If you want a relatively affordable made in the USA workhorse guitar where you can have some options changed at the factory, Kiesel still is awesome in my book.

If you want an art\conversation piece, or a truly master built guitar, you shouldn't expect to get that at sub $2-2.5k prices. Sorry.

Full disclosure: I have one Carvin CS624 guitar I ordered, and I have one ST300 I bought from In-Stock. I also have a Gibson SG, and a Fender American Special.

The Carvins are both great guitars. They are better than the bargain USA guitars I have, are on par with some Suhr's I've tried, and some Anderson/Suhr guitars that I have tried that are well set up are clearly a bit better. 

You get what you pay for.

EDIT: My CS624 was 1.8k, my ST300 was 1.2k.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jan 26, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Oh yeah and funnily enough, not that it was 100% clear in the first place, but I'm apparently barred from placing future orders AFAIK



Thats ridiculous. Especially after buying several guitars from them last year. 



ramses said:


> I believe that it is not possible to bend buckeye burl without cracking it.



Chris Dehlia did on a recent build, although he's not exactly your average luthier.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2017)

I feel like the only solutions to working with burl on a contour are: 
1. get a thicker piece and carve it down (not cost effective and is pretty wasteful)
2. two-piece top like FifthCircle showed on the suhr. 
3. Cut lines on bottom side of top near the contour that allows the top to be bent (like how Ibanez does it). It's a little easier than steaming the wood, though I doubt this method would work well with a burl.


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## ncfiala (Jan 26, 2017)

Damn I was really unaware of all the stuff that's been going on since Jeff stepped in. Even the name change is ridiculous. It makes no sense to change the name of an established brand. That's pure ego right there.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2017)

ncfiala said:


> Damn I was really unaware of all the stuff that's been going on since Jeff stepped in. Even the name change is ridiculous. It makes no sense to change the name of an established brand. That's pure ego right there.



not really. his family has owned the company from the beginning, plus it was originally called kiesel guitars. If anything they're just going back to the old name.


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## ncfiala (Jan 26, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> not really. his family has owned the company from the beginning, plus it was originally called kiesel guitars. If anything they're just going back to the old name.


 
The company was only Kiesel from 1946 to 1949 and then it was Carvin until Jeff changed it back. Carvin is the name that people know, not Kiesel.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jan 26, 2017)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Thats ridiculous. Especially after buying several guitars from them last year.



Yeah and it's honestly rather pointless, I remember hearing about him blacklisting the guy with the photomatch guitar and the finish. Seems pointless to black list people who at that point in time have no more intention of ordering an instrument from them.

And the Suhr arm carve is actually quite deeper than any of the Kiesels out there, doesn't matter if it's a 1pc or 2pc top. The bend occurs on the left side of the guitar, and it's still sitting against a flat piece of wood. That's why the cracks occur on the arm bend, not closer to the center of the top on a 1pc top. I may be looking at it from a different perspective than I was a few months ago, but it's hard pressed to just say that anyone complaining or presenting problems issues only have their high expectations to blame.


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## arasys (Jan 26, 2017)

From marketing perspective it doesn't really make sense, Steve Vai, Jason Becker & Marty Friedman had Carvins back in the day and they have been their biggest endorsements, in other words Carvin name had some brand recognition (and even then I don't remember them putting funny inlays like "K" like a cheap sticker). 

It's sad people ended up paying more than a Suhr or Jackson/ESP CS for cracked tops, what's sadder is fanboys over there keep saying "I don't want to comment on Facebook but.." on every single page. I don't think Kiesel's use of instagram filters can make the cracks look less obvious (unless they play with saturation some more lol).


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## marcwormjim (Jan 26, 2017)

It's weird to me how so many people can dogpile on Kiesel for stuff like Jeff's "attitude" in videos, or Opt-50s not working out perfectly after the terms and risks were explained to customers before the order is placed. 

I mean, does no one remember Kiesel lying about a robbery to sell more guitars, refusing to admit to using a customer's photos of their guitars for promotion without their permission, Jeff/Zack/Other Randoms using the KieselGuitars ss.org account to personally attack people who posted about their negative experiences, as well as using their sponsor-status to endlessly harass mod staff to delete or otherwise censor the endless posts calling them out for this stuff? 

Why don't you warriors lay off attacking Kiesel for making a few goofy-looking guitars (which should only exist because someone ordered them that way), and instead remember the truly evil sh_i_t they've done in the past few years:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/member.php?u=82868

That the brand and their reps made such a negative impression as to have had their sponsorship rescinded and their account banned from this site says enough: Every member here buying their beveled djent-machines are taking the same risks. Just be smart about ordering from them (eg. Don't option-50 anything, don't buy if you're outside the US unless it's an in-stock model, etc.), and you shouldn't have any problems. I've bought a few things from them and, while things have never gone perfectly, my realistic attitude prevented any sense of disappointment - Just set your expectations lower than the non-returnable stuff they promote, and you'll find a quality product in the long list of what they offer.

I mean, assuming I haven't been blacklisted for making posts such as this one, I'd happily buy from them again.


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## laxu (Jan 26, 2017)

arasys said:


> From marketing perspective it doesn't really make sense, Steve Vai, Jason Becker & Marty Friedman had Carvins back in the day and they have been their biggest endorsements, in other words Carvin name had some brand recognition (and even then I don't remember them putting funny inlays like "K" like a cheap sticker)



They have decided to try to get away from Carvin as the amps etc stuff is no longer part of it, they just do the guitars and basses now. So changing the name makes perfect sense and IMO was a good choice. Carvin has never had that much name recognition, as Kiesel they have managed to make people talk about their new brand and models a lot more.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 26, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> ... Every member here buying their beveled djent-machines are taking the same risks. Just be smart about ordering from them (eg. *Don't option-50 anything*, don't buy if you're outside the US unless it's an in-stock model, etc.), and you shouldn't have any problems. I've bought a few things from them and, while things have never gone perfectly, my realistic attitude prevented any sense of disappointment - Just set your expectations lower than the non-returnable stuff they promote, and you'll find a quality product in the long list of what they offer.



I can't agree more, I'm still in LOVE with my 2012 Carvin DC700. Thing is, it seems that the Option-50 thing is getting out of control, becoming more and more blurry. It seems that it now includes having no tone pot, or in other cases, some arbitrary criteria Jeff comes up with for a certain order. 



> I mean, assuming I haven't been blacklisted for making posts such as this one, I'd happily buy from them again.



+1, LOL.


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## bostjan (Jan 26, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> It's weird to me how so many people can dogpile on Kiesel for stuff like Jeff's "attitude" in videos, or Opt-50s not working out perfectly after the terms and risks were explained to customers before the order is placed.
> 
> I mean, does no one remember Kiesel lying about a robbery to sell more guitars, refusing to admit to using a customer's photos of their guitars for promotion without their permission, Jeff/Zack/Other Randoms using the KieselGuitars ss.org account to personally attack people who posted about their negative experiences, as well as using their sponsor-status to endlessly harass mod staff to delete or otherwise censor the endless posts calling them out for this stuff?
> 
> ...



Also, keep in mind that there are reputable builders out there doing all sorts of custom work. If you want cheap and fast, Agile does a great job for the money. Buying from a shady dealer is a gamble.


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## icipher (Jan 26, 2017)

I own two Kiesels and have another one being built that I somewhat regret. I also just bought a KSR Orthos amp.

Let's just say, there is a DRAMATIC difference between how Jeff at Kiesel and Kyle Rhodes at KSR engage their customers. Kyle goes above and beyond. He actually emailed me after buying my amp, wanting to personally know what I think of the amp. He's always been accessible when I've reached out to him. Jeff Kiesel has not. 

A week after ordering my 2nd kiesel, I called them asking to make a slight change to one option. Despite the fact they had not even started on my guitar, Jeff refused to accommodate me despite me buying his guitars before. I can't say I was mad because it's his policy, but he seems to be extremely inflexible. This goes along with what many other people have said before. 

Just my experience.


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## SnowfaLL (Jan 26, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> It's weird to me how so many people can dogpile on Kiesel for stuff like Jeff's "attitude" in videos, or Opt-50s not working out perfectly after the terms and risks were explained to customers before the order is placed.
> 
> Every member here buying their beveled djent-machines are taking the same risks. Just be smart about ordering from them (eg. Don't option-50 anything, don't buy if you're outside the US unless it's an in-stock model, etc.), and you shouldn't have any problems. I've bought a few things from them and, while things have never gone perfectly, my realistic attitude prevented any sense of disappointment - Just set your expectations lower than the non-returnable stuff they promote, and you'll find a quality product in the long list of what they offer.
> 
> I mean, assuming I haven't been blacklisted for making posts such as this one, I'd happily buy from them again.





I'll tell my story, as one of the only supporters I guess left on this site. Keep in mind, from 2008 to late 2015 on here, I had the tag under my username "Carvin Fanboy" and I loved everything about them, and I still like them quite a bit, but things are changing outside of the direction I'm into. 

I know Jeff can be outlandish at times, and I understand lots of the flack about him, but what gets me frustrated is how many people bash Kiesel based solely on the "reviews" of a handful of posters here, who have told one side of the story (as Mike and Chris explained, logically, even in those threads) - I also feel like Kiesel has this insane expectation people have of them WRT things such as returnable options or options in general - the old adage is "Fast, Cheap, Quality; pick two." - well, you can argue Kiesel is the only company that fulfills all three of those, even though I know most people believe Kiesel is not quality.. but every other custom guitar shop takes YEARS to complete, are insanely risky (speaking as someone ripped off by Chris Woods, Bernie Rico Jr, Sims.. and more) and most are well above the $3-4k range. Of course though, people expect their $1100 guitar to be 100% perfect every single time in 7 weeks with custom options and 100% refundable if they decide they dont like it.. Does any other company do that?? No. That's our society now.

As far as my experiences go - I've ordered about 6 guitars since 2010, and a few had issues; but nothing unreasonable. The biggest "frustration" was a color match where the burst pattern itself wasnt even close to the picture I provided, but I guess I didnt specify the burst thickness, just the colors itself.. so maybe thats my bad (I won't make a thread on SS.org about it bashing Kiesel cause I forgot to mention something important to the salesman) - and forgetting a pickup I ordered extra. Overall though, Mike and Chris were amazing to deal with and I'd gladly order from them again, even being in Canada, I know if something goes wrong, they would help - but you have to be reasonable and EXPLAIN your order to them so there is no room for guess work. 

I'm all aboard the Aristides bandwagon now, so the only potential for another Kiesel for me might be the Vader trem, but yea I just dont like wood anymore.


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## technomancer (Jan 26, 2017)

icipher said:


> I own two Kiesels and have another one being built that I somewhat regret. I also just bought a KSR Orthos amp.
> 
> Let's just say, there is a DRAMATIC difference between how Jeff at Kiesel and Kyle Rhodes at KSR engage their customers. Kyle goes above and beyond. He actually emailed me after buying my amp, wanting to personally know what I think of the amp. He's always been accessible when I've reached out to him. Jeff Kiesel has not.
> 
> ...



Just wanted to chime in and say Kyle is indeed a pleasure to deal with and KSR amps are awesome. He goes completely above and beyond and loves what he does.


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## marcwormjim (Jan 28, 2017)

Here's one difference between Carvin and Kiesel:


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 28, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Here's one difference between Carvin and Kiesel:




what a waste. for them to chop it up into little pieces it must have been nigh unsalvageable.


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## Church2224 (Jan 28, 2017)

I am surprised that people think that the issues they are having with Carvin/ Kiesel are new. I had experiences like this from the two I ordered back in 2009 and 2010. I had two guitars that had QC issues including finish flaws, fretwork issues, and on one the ebony fretboard cracked within 8 months of ownership. Also when I tried to address these issues they were very hesitant about trying to help me. At the time I was only 18 and just wanted my own custom guitars. I am much wiser now. 

I like the fact they offer a lot other companies do not such as headless guitars, fanned frets and a variety of options but the truth of the matter is they cannot keep their quality control up to par. If you want something that is flawless and with good customer support, you are going to have to pay more from the likes of Suhr, Tom Anderson, Grosh, Schecter USA, ESP, Jackson, ect.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 30, 2017)

Church2224 said:


> I am surprised that people think that the issues they are having with Carvin/ Kiesel are new. I had experiences like this from the two I ordered back in 2009 and 2010. I had two guitars that had QC issues including finish flaws, fretwork issues, and on one the ebony fretboard cracked within 8 months of ownership. Also when I tried to address these issues they were very hesitant about trying to help me. At the time I was only 18 and just wanted my own custom guitars. I am much wiser now.
> 
> I like the fact they offer a lot other companies do not such as headless guitars, fanned frets and a variety of options but the truth of the matter is they cannot keep their quality control up to par. If you want something that is flawless and with good customer support, you are going to have to pay more from the likes of Suhr, Tom Anderson, Grosh, Schecter USA, ESP, Jackson, ect.



Does anyone actually think these issues are new, though? There have been multiple threads on SS.org over the years about this, including a huge one in the last 6 months or so, and it got to the point that people HERE were complaining that SS.org was an anti-Carvin/Kiesel circlejerk. 

The fact of the matter is that these things go in cycles. You make your comment, 10 more people come out of the woodwork with similar experiences, then someone else makes the opposite of your comment: that they've only had good experiences and no one ever seems to recognise this in spite of Carvin/Kiesel delivering hundreds of problem-free instruments a year. Then people talk about that for a while until it seems like the dominant narrative, at which point your comment comes up again...rinse and repeat. 

I'm not trying to diminish the your complaint, especially because the things I've read here will ensure I'll probably never buy a Carvin/Kiesel of my own, but the refrain that this is a underreported issue on the forums gets a little tiresome. Hell, in that last thread, many of the complaints about Jeff Kiesel happened _in the thread itself!_ This is to say I don't think the average SS.org forum-goer thinks these issues are new like you're claiming. Maybe brand new members, but that's not who I usually see participating in these threads and posting NGDs.


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## FourT6and2 (Jan 31, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> It's weird to me how so many people can dogpile on Kiesel for stuff like Jeff's "attitude" in videos, or Opt-50s not working out perfectly after the terms and risks were explained to customers before the order is placed.
> 
> I mean, does no one remember Kiesel lying about a robbery to sell more guitars, refusing to admit to using a customer's photos of their guitars for promotion without their permission, Jeff/Zack/Other Randoms using the KieselGuitars ss.org account to personally attack people who posted about their negative experiences, as well as using their sponsor-status to endlessly harass mod staff to delete or otherwise censor the endless posts calling them out for this stuff?
> 
> ...



Wait... that whole thing about them getting robbed was fake?


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## A-Branger (Jan 31, 2017)

FourT6and2 said:


> Wait... that whole thing about them getting robbed was fake?



it wasnt. But it didnt stop him to do some advertisement for his guitars while he was explaining the situation 

like instead saying "we got robed, please keep an eye open for these guitars blah blah"

he said something like "we got robed blah blha, but we still ahve guitars in stock, please buy them"

which it can be interpreted in two ways
a) we are down heaps of money due to the robery, we need to recover from it, please buy guitars so the business wont get too affected, we still up and runing, becuase we got robed it doesnt mean we are going to stop production
b) hey since I got your attention, please buy more of my guitars 

just guess which one people think it was the reason of it


dont 100% remember what was the outcome of the said robery, but it wasnt what we all though it was. Like it wasnt a full on robery, more like an order who got dispatched to another place which they already knew about it at the time but wasnt confirmed yet or something like that?????

either way people here didnt like the fact he tried to use the video "we got robed" in order to "sell" more guitars


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## ramses (Jan 31, 2017)

A-Branger said:


> dont 100% remember what was the outcome of the said robery,



It was fraudulent international orders, masquerading as local orders, using fraudulent credit cards. The guitars got sent to local addresses that turned out to be freight forwarders. One of the forwarders promptly returned the guitars once they were notified about the crime, but another forwarder didn't want to answer. I'm not sure if all guitars were recovered, but most were.

The word robbery does apply, if you are not a pedantic lawyer


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 31, 2017)

EDIT: Ninja'd



ramses said:


> It was fraudulent international orders, masquerading as local orders, using fraudulent credit cards. The guitars got sent to local addresses that turned out to be freight forwarders. One of the forwarders promptly returned the guitars once they were notified about the crime, but another forwarder didn't want to answer. I'm not sure if all guitars were recovered, but most were.
> 
> The word robbery does apply, if you are not a pedantic lawyer



You 100% sure on this? Looking back at the original thread (just skimming it...it's huge!), it seems they knew that the guitars were headed overseas, and this was wire transfer fraud. Look at this page, for example, multiple people point out that Jeff knew where the guitars were headed. 



A-Branger said:


> dont 100% remember what was the outcome of the said robery, but it wasnt what we all though it was. Like it wasnt a full on robery, more like an order who got dispatched to another place which they already knew about it at the time but wasnt confirmed yet or something like that?????
> 
> either way people here didnt like the fact he tried to use the video "we got robed" in order to "sell" more guitars




Original comment below: 

I'm probably misremembering some of the details, but I believe the 'robbery' was some guy from South-East Asia ordering a bunch of Carvin/Kiesel's in-stock guitars (10+, I think?) and he later cancelled his payment whilst the guitars were in transit (or had it bounce? I don't remember which). So it was a robbery in the sense that Jeff/Kiesel were nearly scammed and were at risk of losing the guitars they voluntarily shipped off. 

I think the excuse for advertising the in-stock guitars whilst this was still going came via trying to explain the details of the robbery to the growing crowd watching these events unfold, as everyone was really confused about the situation. I remember there being a day or two of people thinking the guilty party was a robber who broke into Carvin's showroom to steal the instruments through physical means (Jeff was very vague about the whole thing and didn't clarify what 'robbery' meant at first, which to many seemed like he was trying to drum up publicity), so when it finally came out that the robbery was basically just an order gone wrong, people were asking a thousand questions about why he'd build and ship 10 guitars overseas without even waiting for the payment to clear, and so on. Thus Jeff explains that the guy didn't order new guitars but rather bought most of their in-stock instruments and that, as a result of this, their showroom was basically empty except for a couple of guitars that weren't purchased by the scammer--_'which by the way, are the following instruments, and they're still for sale.'_ Or something like that.

For what it's worth, the whole thing was weird. I don't think Jeff was being malicious or exploitive, really, but I do think he was grandstanding a bit, capitalising on the free advertising whilst it was there. Plus it seemed even more scummy when people discovered that, as Jeff was telling people to 'be on the lookout' for the guitars and whatever else, he knew full well they were still in transit as he was writing those messages, on a shipment he himself made and signed-off on. However, he just later explained that he had no confidence in the parcel carrier (or rather, the South-East Asia receiving company) and that he'd sent some emails/phone calls that were not responded to, so he thought maybe they were complicit in the scam or (more benignly) not willing to act quickly enough to prevent the 'theft' from occurring. The reactions to this were mixed: some people understood the predicament and chalked it up as a misunderstanding, other people thought Jeff was slow to respond or clarify things because he knew it'd only help his cause if he made himself look like a victim of a 'robbery', rather than someone who willingly took a gamble on a somewhat sketchy sale.

I don't remember the conclusion. I think most of the guitars were recovered via the carrier, and maybe that the original 'scam' was not a scam at all but rather a misunderstanding between the buyer and Jeff, but don't take my word on that. Either way, it was not exactly a glowing endorsement of Jeff's communication skills, which were already under fire even prior to the whole furore.


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## Hollowway (Jan 31, 2017)

Eh, I think everyone knows that a robbery is when you take something from a person who is present. As opposed to burglary.

I think just a regular theft covers this.

But yeah, I think that saying the guitars were stolen implies that someone came in and took them, which shakes people, because it makes them feel like they're not safe, and that someone could come in to their place at any time. And then the feeling from the video was that Jeff was less concerned about getting them back, and more interested in parlaying it into some sympathy sales. I think the biggest issue most people have with Jeff is that he seems after some fast money, as opposed to Mark, who seemed to want to build a solid brand.

Anyway, I agree with Sermo: These threads will pop up, we'll talk about it, and they'll go away. Meanwhile, most people won't alter their behavior over it, and Kiesel won't change.


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## davedeath (Jan 31, 2017)

Everyone but one guitar was returned.


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## mnemonic (Feb 1, 2017)

I remember the thread, it was heavily implied that their showroom or warehouse was robbed, which they then spun into a sales pitch. Many people were none too happy when they found out it was just some fraudulent orders of in-stock guitars.


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## bostjan (Feb 1, 2017)

Getting scammed out of thousands worth of inventory is pretty bad. I can imagine why they would have called it a robbery, even though that was not the correct term. I'd give them a pass on the use of the word; however, the shiesty way that the company handled the whole incident was still shiesty.


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## olejason (Feb 1, 2017)

The reason he pushed the "be on the lookout!" crap was because he was fishing for shares on Facebook and other social media. Basically trying to get the brand name out there to more people.


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## Mraz (Feb 1, 2017)

I am from the EU and I want to order a guitar from them in the near future since they have great price for a custom guitar.. But all those posts make me a little nervous tbh...


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## davedeath (Feb 1, 2017)

While we're on the kiesel hate train I'm gonna step aboard... Supposedly 500 for wood bobbins and has to be a 3k build. Just wood veneer on shaved down bobbins. I figure they could CNC a program to cut a block of wood or whatever... I don't know,seems a bit too much,even at 100 I would do it but 500 no way. I don't know why this rubs me the wrong way so much. Definitely no kiesel for me with .... like this.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 1, 2017)

davedeath said:


> While we're on the kiesel hate train I'm gonna step aboard... Supposedly 500 for wood bobbins and has to be a 3k build. Just wood veneer on shaved down bobbins. I figure they could CNC a program to cut a block of wood or whatever... I don't know,seems a bit too much,even at 100 I would do it but 500 no way. I don't know why this rubs me the wrong way so much. Definitely no kiesel for me with .... like this.



you could just get someone like ethan at instrumental pickups to make you wood bobbins. that or find someone who could. It wouldn't be that hard.. But yeah that seems unbelievably high for making some bobbins. who quoted you that?


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## davedeath (Feb 1, 2017)

Someone posted it on their BBS, I was listening to the live stream yesterday but didn't catch him talking about it. http://www.kieselguitarsbbs.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=48819&sid=6669dbb24b9f695635dd2d69a69ef067


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## Jeffbro (Feb 1, 2017)

The Kiesel hate bandwagon is getting ridiculous

I never bonded with them, but the few I had looked great and played almost as good as prestiges.

Bottom line is they make solid custom guitars with tons of specs at great prices. Their tops and build speed are as good as it gets. They have issues but so do most custom shops, unless you want to pay 3-5k for a custom mayo/suhr etc. I would guess 95+% of their customers are happy.

People should have realistic standards


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## laxu (Feb 2, 2017)

davedeath said:


> While we're on the kiesel hate train I'm gonna step aboard... Supposedly 500 for wood bobbins and has to be a 3k build. Just wood veneer on shaved down bobbins. I figure they could CNC a program to cut a block of wood or whatever... I don't know,seems a bit too much,even at 100 I would do it but 500 no way. I don't know why this rubs me the wrong way so much. Definitely no kiesel for me with .... like this.



The explanation in the Kiesel forum thread makes sense to me. Basically Jeff himself will make the bobbins, they don't have a laser cutter to do it en masse and using a CNC machine would halt guitar production while bobbins are getting cut. So if the head honcho has to take time to cut and build them himself, it's no wonder they are really expensive. Could they do them cheaper? Of course, but that would require investments in getting them produced and to believe they have a market. While I do think wooden bobbins are pretty cool, they are still a niche product.

I think the hate wagon is running off the rails here. Kiesel already offers a ....load of options to choose from and is able to deliver those in roughly 1/3 of the time most custom builders would. It's fine if you don't like how Jeff presents himself or the company but the bottom line is they make a pretty damn good product for a fairly reasonable price.


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## maccayoung (Feb 2, 2017)

Mraz said:


> I am from the EU and I want to order a guitar from them in the near future since they have great price for a custom guitar.. But all those posts make me a little nervous tbh...



I hear you. I'm in the UK, I just did an order with them and everything turned out well. I'm very pleased with the guitar. But if I'd read this thread first I'm not sure I would have ordered from them.


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## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 2, 2017)

There is a reason you don't see many small wooden parts with holes and thin sections - they are hella fragile. Fun to make, though!


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## A-Branger (Feb 2, 2017)

laxu said:


> The explanation in the Kiesel forum thread makes sense to me. Basically Jeff himself will make the bobbins, they don't have a laser cutter to do it en masse and using a CNC machine would halt guitar production while bobbins are getting cut. So if the head honcho has to take time to cut and build them himself, it's no wonder they are really expensive. Could they do them cheaper? Of course, but that would require investments in getting them produced and to believe they have a market. While I do think wooden bobbins are pretty cool, they are still a niche product.
> 
> I think the hate wagon is running off the rails here. Kiesel already offers a ....load of options to choose from and is able to deliver those in roughly 1/3 of the time most custom builders would. It's fine if you don't like how Jeff presents himself or the company but the bottom line is they make a pretty damn good product for a fairly reasonable price.



yeah pretty much. I have no idea of the real reason (appart from what you wrote) but its not that hard to figure it out. Although they are a "custom shop", its more of a "select your parts/colors, we would build it", so in a way they already have everything "pre-done" just o be efficient. Things like pickups would already be a big pile of them ready to be instaled on any guitar as they get build by the numbers to cut down cost.

So to order a special bobins for it, means someone has to stop their job in order to build a one off pickups. Plus like previous post says, to do those in wood is pretty delicate. 

Basically it stops the factory line and their step by step process they already have in order to do something out of the normal just for you.

so it takes extra time and effort. IS the price justify? maybe? but seems more like "we dont really want to do it, but we dont want to say "NO" to you, so if you want it you would have to pay"...... this would get rid of 90% of the request.

In a photography studio I used to work we used to do something similar for big albums upgrades and for same day edits for weddings, and another dumb request we really didnt wanted to do. We could do those, but as the work is really annoying and takes away our time and its out of our standard process, we jsut put the price so high in order to "scare" away customers, unless they really pay for it (the amount of work VS the final product didnt justify the time spent on it for a "small/silly request" kinda thing). Part of the studio thing was to never say "no" to a customer. which I could understand, but in reality it put us in more trouble quite a few times than the "good image" it supposed to show. You DO can say NO to people, you just need to know how.

For waht I can see, that its a "we never say NO to a customer" business policy. Go and have a read to any entrepreneur/bussiness/motivational/success/blahblah thing and they would always recommend to take that approach


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## marcwormjim (Feb 2, 2017)

The wood bobbin thing is odd. In previous years, a request for that would be met with "We aren't set up to produce wood bobbins, due to lack of demand; and wouldn't be able to sell them at a competitive price. But, as with all pickups, you're free have someone else make some with wood bobbins for you and send them in to have installed on your build."

I suppose just mentioning that is enough to have this post dismissed as only being on a hate bandwagon; so there's no point in addressing all that's wrong with what was actually said. Still, Kiesel isn't forcing any one fool to part with a minimum $3,500 for wood shavings glued to plastic - The option is there, and the transaction is no one's business but Jeff's and whomever Mr. MoneyBags goes for it.


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## A-Branger (Feb 2, 2017)

EDIT: Naah just realized I was just making a rant about my previous employer rather than making a point about Kiesel or anything related to the topic, so forget it


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## littleredguitars2 (Feb 2, 2017)

back to the vanquish topic. you couldnt PAY me to endorse that hideous thing. my god. not only that but letchfield's new model is just ugly as sin. but then again he's always had tacky tastes with finishes. the one thing i'll give kiesel credit for is the ability to pick out some stellar cuts of wood. too bad they rush their jobs. 

anyone else notice just how much they've been snatching up all these good players out of nowhere lately? Aussie Prog player IBuiltTheSky just jumped on board. after hyping PRS for so long. i love the guys playing but i feel like jeff waved a free guitar in front of his face and he couldnt resist a little support. i totally get the appeal of it but theres no chance in hell it plays better than a 3-4k PRS. no chance. the quality control levels between the 2 brands are simply not comparable.


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## Brodolio (Feb 3, 2017)

littleredguitars2 said:


> back to the vanquish topic. you couldnt PAY me to endorse that hideous thing. my god. not only that but letchfield's new model is just ugly as sin. but then again he's always had tacky tastes with finishes. the one thing i'll give kiesel credit for is the ability to pick out some stellar cuts of wood. too bad they rush their jobs.
> 
> anyone else notice just how much they've been snatching up all these good players out of nowhere lately? Aussie Prog player IBuiltTheSky just jumped on board. after hyping PRS for so long. i love the guys playing but i feel like jeff waved a free guitar in front of his face and he couldnt resist a little support. i totally get the appeal of it but theres no chance in hell it plays better than a 3-4k PRS. no chance. the quality control levels between the 2 brands are simply not comparable.


Well I honestly don't care about who is playing what, it's just a matter of business for them.
For example, Kiko Loureiro used to play an unknown custom guitar at the beginning of his carrer, then he went through ESP, Ibanez etc..I mean, i wouldn't choose a brand depending on guys who are endorsers.

But I could agree with you, some Kiesel models are not the best in terms of shape.I would like to see a Vanquish or a Vader in person, since I'm quite sure it would make a huge difference..
So far I just saw them on youtube viedos or pictures. Maybe actually playing some of those could help (at least me) to understand once for all if they are really ugly as you said 

But here in Europe it's hard to come across a Kiesel..I'm looking forward to meet Kiesel guys at the Musikemesse this April


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 3, 2017)

Regarding the whole bobbin thing, you know how people say "would you ever *insert unpleasant task here* for *insert price here*?" You know... Trying to gauge how depraved you are by seeing how little you'd take to shove a roll of quarters up your ass? Them setting a high price makes sense. They don't want to do it, but money is always good. You WILL shove those quarters and ask for seconds if someone was gonna give you a million bucks for it. (one could argue that they're the dumb ones for spending that kind of money on such a dumb task.)

This is one of those instances. They don't want to do it, but they will if the price is right.


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## Shask (Feb 3, 2017)

Brodolio said:


> But I could agree with you, some Kiesel models are not the best in terms of shape.I would like to see a Vanquish or a Vader in person, since I'm quite sure it would make a huge difference..
> So far I just saw them on youtube viedos or pictures. Maybe actually playing some of those could help (at least me) to understand once for all if they are really ugly as you said



I think this also. I think the SCB6 looks kind of stupid in pictures, but I ended up getting one through a trade, and I think it looks MUCH better sitting in my room. Very comfortable feeling also. The finish is actually MUCH darker in person than in pictures, so I like that. I like guitars that dont stand out.


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## Ben Pinkus (Feb 3, 2017)

The more I've been looking at Kiesel recently the more I've been impressed with them. Shame they are way more expensive relatively in the EU


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## icipher (Feb 3, 2017)

olejason said:


> The reason he pushed the "be on the lookout!" crap was because he was fishing for shares on Facebook and other social media. Basically trying to get the brand name out there to more people.



I remember that... That's slimy as heck. Dude's always got a sh%t-eating grin on his face like he's Mr. cool/niceguy when in reality I think he's probably just a giant dick.


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## -DTP- (Feb 3, 2017)

littleredguitars2 said:


> back to the vanquish topic. you couldnt PAY me to endorse that hideous thing. my god. not only that but letchfield's new model is just ugly as sin.



Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy when I tell people I dislike Kiesel's shapes in general but I've had a few conversations lately where people seem to feel the same way. There's just something off about the majority of the body designs. 

Oddly enough I do like the SCB shape though.


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## Jeffbro (Feb 3, 2017)

icipher said:


> I remember that... That's slimy as heck. Dude's always got a sh%t-eating grin on his face like he's Mr. cool/niceguy when in reality I think he's probably just a giant dick.



Great observation there...

It's hilarious how much people hate on this guy (and probably never even touched a Kiesel) for slightly strict return policies and publicity stunts. By comparison, other custom builders have literally taken people's money and disappeared or put out total junk with no way to return.


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## icipher (Feb 3, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Great observation there...
> 
> It's hilarious how much people hate on this guy (and probably never even touched a Kiesel) for slightly strict return policies and publicity stunts. By comparison, other custom builders have literally taken people's money and disappeared or put out total junk with no way to return.



It doesn't matter who's done worse. We live in an era where there is no room for marginal customer service. With the amount of competition out there, which will only increase, the customer experience is ultimately what decides the winners from the losers.

Something to keep in mind.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Feb 3, 2017)

Just for the sake of constructive discussion, which "Factory-Custom" USA shop would you recommend over Kiesel in terms of Customer Service, within their price range of around 2k for mid to high end? 

Again, legit question, not fanboying here.


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## icipher (Feb 3, 2017)

FifthCircleSquared said:


> Just for the sake of constructive discussion, which "Factory-Custom" USA shop would you recommend over Kiesel in terms of Customer Service, within their price range of around 2k for mid to high end?
> 
> Again, legit question, not fanboying here.



I haven't done business with any other custom shops. I got my first carvin 4 years ago, and now own 2 Kiesels with a third being built.

I think Kiesel does offer value in their product quality and options, which is why I have been a repeat customer.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Feb 3, 2017)

I have two myself, but was wondering if they had direct competition, which would probably drive customer service or innovation.


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## icipher (Feb 3, 2017)

FifthCircleSquared said:


> I have two myself, but was wondering if they had direct competition, which would probably drive customer service or innovation.



other builders are popping up, but in North America I can't think of anyone else at their level yet. Ormsby is certainly gaining ground.


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2017)

FifthCircleSquared said:


> Just for the sake of constructive discussion, which "Factory-Custom" USA shop would you recommend over Kiesel in terms of Customer Service, within their price range of around 2k for mid to high end?
> 
> Again, legit question, not fanboying here.



For me personally I'm going for a Suhr, either used or spending the extra for a custom order. I was actually going to pull the trigger on an Aries minus bevels but the last straw was seeing Jeff's post-NAMM video where he talked about how everybody was copying them and trying to get examples of their guitars etc etc while not naming any specific companies. He did make a reference to a Glacier vs his Arctic finish as someone copying him... I assume he was trying to target the PRS Private Stock Glacier finish, which is hilarious since PRS has been doing that finish for years going back well before Carvin became Kiesel.

The whole segment was pointless and came across as kind of pathetic, like one of those people that tries to make themselves feel better by attacking others. After watching the video I just decided there was no way I can spend my money with them. Overall the quality of their work is good, but Jeff's attitude has completely driven me away from them. The whole us vs them cult of personality marketing turns my stomach 

You can also add me to the group that think most of their shapes just seem a bit off.


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## xzacx (Feb 3, 2017)

technomancer said:


> I assume he was trying to target the PRS Private Stock Glacier finish, which is hilarious since PRS has been doing that finish for years going back well before Carvin became Kiesel.



I didn't see it, but that sounds ridiculous. PRS have been doing that finish for close to 10 years, if not longer.


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2017)

xzacx said:


> I didn't see it, but that sounds ridiculous. PRS have been doing that finish for close to 10 years, if not longer.



Yeah IIRC he said, "Glacier? Arctic? Come on." That was after a rant about colored fretboards and something about color coming off on people's hands. Which if it was about PRS yeah I'm sure that happened on a Private Stock 

Was also kind of funny if it was directed at PRS since he's been trying to copy their fades and failing for quite a while. I think I saw one recently that he finally got it right on...


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## littleredguitars2 (Feb 3, 2017)

-DTP- said:


> Sometimes I feel like I'm crazy when I tell people I dislike Kiesel's shapes in general but I've had a few conversations lately where people seem to feel the same way. There's just something off about the majority of the body designs.
> 
> Oddly enough I do like the SCB shape though.



totally on the same page. i considered an scb6 for quite some time a few years ago when it was still carvin. since then my tastes have drifted elsewhere but still a nice guitar


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## albertc (Feb 3, 2017)

Is the sparkle gold top only available on the gold digger model


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 3, 2017)

In the US Suhr and Anderson make some pretty amazing guitars which can be around 2k used...

That being said, they won't do 27 inch seven strings at all or headless guitars.

My neither of my DC7Xs has the fit and finish of the anderson 7 string I had but the Kiesels had the features I actually wanted in a 7, many of which Anderson said never going to happen to when I asked him. 

I wouldn't mind spending more for a Blackwater but that isn't happening ever at this point....

Kiesel is still really good at what Carvin has always been good at which is getting good semi-custom workhorse guitars built in a reasonable time frame...that built in a reasonable time frame seems to be nearly impossible to keep up with for a lot of hype builders.

There are a lot of horror stories for Kiesel but there are also plenty of happy customers even on this site.

I've had 2 dc7x that I bought used. I sold one and have another build on the way. No complaints here. 

Essentially, the way I see it, they are 1200-1500 dollar American made guitars. At that price point I'm ok with a few smalls as long as I get the features I need. Even Asian made Ibbies are approaching or exceeding that price point these days. The problem with Kiesel is that now they will let you load up the 1200 guitar with a fancy top and a million features and personal touches and all of a sudden that guitar is 3000. However, you don't actually have a 3000 guitar. You have a 1200 guitar and 1800 of options.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 3, 2017)

albertc said:


> Is the sparkle gold top only available on the gold digger model



no, it should be available on all models now. sparkle finishes were pretty popular during the kiesel run in december.


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## technomancer (Feb 4, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> no, it should be available on all models now. sparkle finishes were pretty popular during the kiesel run in december.



Yeah IIRC all the sparkle finishes are available across the board, they're just not in the builder yet and again IIRC are a $600 upcharge. Unsure if they constitute an Option 50 or not.


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## oracles (Feb 4, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> Essentially, the way I see it, they are 1200-1500 dollar American made guitars. The problem with Kiesel is that now they will let you load up the 1200 guitar with a fancy top and a million features and personal touches and all of a sudden that guitar is 3000. However, you don't actually have a 3000 guitar. You have a 1200 guitar and 1800 of options.



This is what I've tried to stress to people, adding all the additional options doesn't suddenly make it a better instrument. It's a $1500 instrument you just poured another $1500 into, but it's ultimately the same $1500 instrument no matter what. The $2k+ Kiesel builds don't hang with the competition at that price point, K series included.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Yeah IIRC all the sparkle finishes are available across the board, they're just not in the builder yet and again IIRC are a $600 upcharge. Unsure if they constitute an Option 50 or not.



sparkle finish isn't a 600 dollar upcharge. that was the price for the pink candy finish that jeff did for chris letchford iirc.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 4, 2017)

oracles said:


> This is what I've tried to stress to people, adding all the additional options doesn't suddenly make it a better instrument. It's a $1500 instrument you just poured another $1500 into, but it's ultimately the same $1500 instrument no matter what. The $2k+ Kiesel builds don't hang with the competition at that price point, K series included.



This is the same thing with anything you can customize for a fee. I have a Mazda 3...a cheap car...but I have the highest trim level available with the biggest engine. Sat nav, leather seats, headlights that turn when I steer, etc. So it's a cheap car with tons of added-cost options. Could I have gotten a base model of a nicer car? Perhaps...but it wouldn't have all the features I wanted.

This even carries over into resale. When you sell used car more than a couple of years old...people quite often will remember the base price and don't care that your car has the such-and-such package and the more expensive transmission and the interior upgrade.

But at the same time, my instruments inspire me. I've had *technically* great guitars...but they didn't inspire me to play. Being able to customize re-sparked my interest in guitar, and I've been continuing to play ever since nearly selling all my gear. The one that gets played the least? The one I bought used and didn't spec myself. it's an amazing guitar, but...eh. I would have picked a different neck and body finish.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 4, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> sparkle finish isn't a 600 dollar upcharge. that was the price for the pink candy finish that jeff did for chris letchford iirc.



Sparkle finish IS a $600 charge. So is the pink candy, purple candy and the "arctic" finish packages.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2017)

spudmunkey said:


> Sparkle finish IS a $600 charge. So is the pink candy, purple candy and the "arctic" finish packages.



whoops, my bad. seems on the money though considering dudes like marty bell charge 400-600 for sparkle finishes depending on the type of guitar (bolt ons are cheaper).


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## spudmunkey (Feb 4, 2017)

Online just a solid color paint job, they first have to lay down a base coat a specific color, level it, add the flake layer, make sure they are all laying flat, then a trans color, then I imagine the clear layers need to be thicker than normal so that the final finish is level.

I *BELIEVE* the color-shifting finishes are $400, because that's a multi-layer process...plus the extra cost of the more-expensive paint. It's also why the Kiesel Racing Green, McLaren Yellow etc colors are an upcharge even though they are just solid non-metallic colors, because they have to do a "perfect" coat of white under those colors first, so it's kinds like two paint jobs.


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## Hollowway (Feb 9, 2017)

So this is interesting. I've been wanting a Becker Numbers guitar for as long as I can remember. I saw two pop up in the in-stock section last week, and then one this week, and they're listed at $1799, and on sale for $1599, with the normal $200 savings you see on in-stock instruments. So I called the company to see if that's a typo, or if there was something unique about these. Because the normal price for them (in the builder) is $1599. Mike said that they need to show a savings in that portion of the website (apparently that's how the website works), and so they add $200 to make then price $1799, then discount it $200 to bring it to $1599 to show it's now on sale. Either way, in stock or custom, it's $1599. I now understand I'll not save anything on this guitar in the in-stock section, but that seems like a shifty way of advertising that. It's not on sale, but they're advertising it that it is. Mike said there were very few models that were basic specs like that. But now I really don't know what these in-stock prices actually reflect.


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## mnemonic (Feb 9, 2017)

I remember stuff like that was in the news a lot about a year or two ago here in the UK, supermarkets raising the price of something then putting it on 'sale' for the normal price, then when the sale is over, the normal price goes back to normal. 

Stores like SportsDirect also got a lot of flak for marking things up then having 20% (or whatever amount) off sales. Everything in that store is perpetually on sale for the normal amount. 

More shadiness.


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## stevexc (Feb 9, 2017)

If I'm understanding the legalese correctly that's actually illegal in parts of the world (like Canada, for one). Obviously it may be legal in California, but here at least an item has to be sold at the "regular price" for a certain length of time before it can be used as the regular price in a sale situation (Source).


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## TheTrooper (Feb 9, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Great observation there...
> 
> It's hilarious how much people hate on this guy (and probably never even touched a Kiesel) for slightly strict return policies and publicity stunts. By comparison, other custom builders have literally taken people's money and disappeared or put out total junk with no way to return.




*Chough* Sabre Guitars *Chough*


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 9, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> So this is interesting. I've been wanting a Becker Numbers guitar for as long as I can remember. I saw two pop up in the in-stock section last week, and then one this week, and they're listed at $1799, and on sale for $1599, with the normal $200 savings you see on in-stock instruments. So I called the company to see if that's a typo, or if there was something unique about these. Because the normal price for them (in the builder) is $1599. Mike said that they need to show a savings in that portion of the website (apparently that's how the website works), and so they add $200 to make then price $1799, then discount it $200 to bring it to $1599 to show it's now on sale. Either way, in stock or custom, it's $1599. I now understand I'll not save anything on this guitar in the in-stock section, but that seems like a shifty way of advertising that. It's not on sale, but they're advertising it that it is. Mike said there were very few models that were basic specs like that. But now I really don't know what these in-stock prices actually reflect.



Kiesel has been doing this for a while. Basically just ignore the supposed 200$ savings. It's just like how they always give 100$ off of options on custom builds- that's the standard for them. It's a ploy to make you think you're getting a better deal than you actually are. I watch their in-stock for 8 strings like a hawk and any guitar that sits in-stock for too long just gets rotated out. There hasn't been any seriously low prices for the guitars when they just want to get rid of them, which means that overall demand is probably high enough that they don't care if it takes them a couple of months to sell the guitar at the normal price. There's one DC7x in a black cherry finish that's been hanging around for months and they haven't dropped the price once on it. Even with that kind of crap going on I still think Kiesels are a great deal overall and they make pretty damn good guitars.


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## Hollowway (Feb 9, 2017)

Hahaha, me too! I check the 8 string in stocks regularly. And I know what you mean. I've seen a couple languishing there forever. Someone else said it best - Kiesels are great guitars for the money if you stick to basic specs. All the options inflate the price quickly, but don't make it a better playing instrument. In the under $2000 range they're awesome. In the over $3000 range there is a LOT of competition for really amazing instruments.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 9, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Hahaha, me too! I check the 8 string in stocks regularly. And I know what you mean. I've seen a couple languishing there forever. Someone else said it best - Kiesels are great guitars for the money if you stick to basic specs. All the options inflate the price quickly, but don't make it a better playing instrument. In the under $2000 range they're awesome. In the over $3000 range there is a LOT of competition for really amazing instruments.



someone bought that really nice orangeburst VM8  That's the second time I've missed out on it dammit.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 11, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Hahaha, me too! I check the 8 string in stocks regularly. And I know what you mean. I've seen a couple languishing there forever. Someone else said it best - Kiesels are great guitars for the money if you stick to basic specs. All the options inflate the price quickly, but don't make it a better playing instrument. In the under $2000 range they're awesome. In the over $3000 range there is a LOT of competition for really amazing instruments.



But this is what grinds my gears when people compare say a Kiesel vs a PRS customshop or even a Suhr.. They say "You pay $3k for a Kiesel or $3k for a Suhr, its not even close" but if you are talking BASE specs on both, its a $1200 Kiesel vs a $3k Suhr.. If we're talking quilted tops and decked out options for both, its a $3k Kiesel vs a $6k Suhr. Or a $3k Kiesel vs a $10k+ PRS. 

But like politics and news, everyone tries to fit their narrative into their argument. I love my Carvins (not so much my Kiesels) but its unfair to compare quality of my one-piece quilt top, unique purple sunset burst ST300T to my solid color Aristides 070, even if they ended up costing roughly the same.


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## narad (Feb 11, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> But this is what grinds my gears when people compare say a Kiesel vs a PRS customshop or even a Suhr.. They say "You pay $3k for a Kiesel or $3k for a Suhr, its not even close" but if you are talking BASE specs on both, its a $1200 Kiesel vs a $3k Suhr.. If we're talking quilted tops and decked out options for both, its a $3k Kiesel vs a $6k Suhr. Or a $3k Kiesel vs a $10k+ PRS.



Nah nah nah, Kiesel charges ridiculous amounts for options, whereas Suhr has a higher base price but generally more modest options. A $6k Suhr is pretty rare and is like either one of their limited weird runs or something with body+neck+hs binding.

You look at that $3k Kiesel, and if the specs chose something like quilt maple, then you can easily get a comparable Suhr within $1k more.


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## Jeffbro (Feb 11, 2017)

narad said:


> Nah nah nah, Kiesel charges ridiculous amounts for options, whereas Suhr has a higher base price but generally more modest options. A $6k Suhr is pretty rare and is like either one of their limited weird runs or something with body+neck+hs binding.
> 
> You look at that $3k Kiesel, and if the specs chose something like quilt maple, then you can easily get a comparable Suhr within $1k more.



That's the point, hardly anyone buys $3k kiesels. But for <2k their options/quality/value cannot be beat the in custom world. I can get a headless with some nice options like SS frets for under 1500, which is high end korean/indo production range. People need to stop putting them head to head with $3k+ customs and expect perfection.


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## Hollowway (Feb 11, 2017)

Yeah for me, Kiesels under $2000 all day long. Those $3000 and $4000 ones are overpriced compared to other luthiers. $600 for a buckeye burl top is way more than I paid elsewhere for a buckeye burl top. And then there's the Jeff upcharge foe him picking a top. And there was a guy on the kiesel bbs that said he got a NAMM build that had a $1500 top! Certain luthiers will charge more for certain options. Some thins from Kiesel are cheap, and no brainers, like SS frets. Even their shipping is super reasonable. Other options seem to cost way more than their worth. But yeah, the base specs are inexpensive options are just killer.


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## narad (Feb 11, 2017)

Still under $2k you have the Suhr Pro series. I'll take the better guitar over the fancier top all day long. But $1200 and below, not much competition to Kiesel there.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 11, 2017)

Well, Suhr's normal 2 piece tops are a good $200-300 higher than Kiesels.. For a carved top, the Suhr is $900 while a Kiesel is $600 for a quilted top. Buckeye burl isnt listed but I'm sure its higher than Kiesel.

Everything else looks pretty similar except $200 cheaper on a sparkle finish. Straight from the Suhr spec guide

http://www.mattsmusic.com/Suhr-2013-Custom-Guitars-Price-List-MSRP.pdf


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 11, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Well, Suhr's normal 2 piece tops are a good $200-300 higher than Kiesels.. For a carved top, the Suhr is $900 while a Kiesel is $600 for a quilted top. Buckeye burl isnt listed but I'm sure its higher than Kiesel.
> 
> Everything else looks pretty similar except $200 cheaper on a sparkle finish. Straight from the Suhr spec guide
> 
> http://www.mattsmusic.com/Suhr-2013-Custom-Guitars-Price-List-MSRP.pdf



No one pays MSRP. Ever. It's 2017, does this still need to be pointed out? 

Doesn't hurt that, on average, the Suhr is an objectively better guitar if similarly spec'd. 

But these comparisons are silly and completely pointless given the difference in distribution and sales. Dealer network vs. factory direct and all. If we want to be really pedantic we could argue that if Carvin's were subject to even the most conservative examples of music retail mark-up they'd be even more expensive than Suhr.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 12, 2017)

MaxOfMetal said:


> No one pays MSRP. Ever. It's 2017, does this still need to be pointed out?
> 
> Doesn't hurt that, on average, the Suhr is an objectively better guitar if similarly spec'd.
> 
> But these comparisons are silly and completely pointless given the difference in distribution and sales. Dealer network vs. factory direct and all. If we want to be really pedantic we could argue that if Carvin's were subject to even the most conservative examples of music retail mark-up they'd be even more expensive than Suhr.



Sure, we could argue about theories like that (what about if Gibson was factory direct?? Would that change the whole guitar world??) but the real-life Facts are that Carvin/Kiesel's are much cheaper than a similar spec'd Suhr by a large margin.


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## narad (Feb 12, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Sure, we could argue about theories like that (what about if Gibson was factory direct?? Would that change the whole guitar world??) but the real-life Facts are that Carvin/Kiesel's are much cheaper than a similar spec'd Suhr by a large margin.



But the facts are also that you're quoting numbers that aren't comparable, as Max pointed out. You have to move from MSRP -> street _because_ Kiesel does direct distribution. So the fact is that people don't pay $900 for a quilt maple upgrade with Suhr. 

So yes, a budget Kiesel is cheaper than a comparably spec'd budget Suhr. A premium Kiesel is not necessarily significantly cheaper than a comparably spec'd Suhr, because Suhr doesn't gouge so much on options.


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## Keel (Feb 12, 2017)

Why compare suhr and Kiesel? Completely different companies.


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## Jeffbro (Feb 12, 2017)

narad said:


> So yes, a budget Kiesel is cheaper than a comparably spec'd budget Suhr. A premium Kiesel is not necessarily significantly cheaper than a comparably spec'd Suhr, because Suhr doesn't gouge so much on options.



More like a budget kiesel is 1/2 the price of a suhr and a premium kiesel is still much cheaper than a comparable suhr.

Again, they are not really comparable. Kiesel has so much more options, starting with multiple body styles, construction type, headless, 8 strings, multiscale, etc etc. Suhr is so far away.


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## narad (Feb 12, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> More like a budget kiesel is 1/2 the price of a suhr and a premium kiesel is still much cheaper than a comparable suhr.
> 
> Again, they are not really comparable. Kiesel has so much more options, starting with multiple body styles, construction type, headless, 8 strings, multiscale, etc etc. Suhr is so far away.



I usually wouldn't compare them. Suhr has a pretty impeccable build reputation. But someone started it so we're just rolling with it now.

Yea, if you're going for ERGs, definitely there's no point in comparing -- Suhr stops out at 7s with limited options, though a lot of guys say those 7s are amazing.

But in terms of 6s, multiple body styles, construction type, woods, finishes, pickups, hardware, ..they're quite heavily optioned really.


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## Exit Existence (Feb 16, 2017)

Not a new model but I pulled the trigger on my 2nd Carvin/Kiesel....
Vader V7 
Rear Natural Clear Walnut Body, 5pc Walnut Neck w/ maple stripes
Flame Maple top in Blue Caliburst
Satin Finish
Birdseye Maple Fingerboard
Offset Staggered Abalone Inlays
Stainless Jumbo frets

2 weeks down...estimated 10 to go hnnnnnggggggggggggggggg


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## Brodolio (Feb 20, 2017)

Exit Existence said:


> Not a new model but I pulled the trigger on my 2nd Carvin/Kiesel....
> Vader V7
> Rear Natural Clear Walnut Body, 5pc Walnut Neck w/ maple stripes
> Flame Maple top in Blue Caliburst
> ...


sounds good

BTW, this Aries model currently for sale non kiesel website it's quite interesting as well


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 20, 2017)

is it interesting because they forgot a string when they built it?


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## Brodolio (Feb 20, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> is it interesting because they forgot a string when they built it?


ahah well even if it's a 6 string, it's gorgeous


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## Taikatatti (Feb 23, 2017)

Kinda offtopic but does anybody know if Kiesel has any baritone 7-string models anymore? DC7X seems to be discontinued. Is Aries 7 available with a straight 27' scale? Not a big fan of a multiscales. Thanks!


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## cip 123 (Feb 23, 2017)

Taikatatti said:


> Kinda offtopic but does anybody know if Kiesel has any baritone 7-string models anymore? DC7X seems to be discontinued. Is Aries 7 available with a straight 27' scale? Not a big fan of a multiscales. Thanks!



The DC7X is now just a DC700 option I believe, you can specify 27" when building a DC700 I think.


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## jc986 (Feb 23, 2017)

Taikatatti said:


> Kinda offtopic but does anybody know if Kiesel has any baritone 7-string models anymore? DC7X seems to be discontinued. Is Aries 7 available with a straight 27' scale? Not a big fan of a multiscales. Thanks!



The Vader, DC700, and Aries 7 can all be ordered with 27" scale.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 23, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> is it interesting because they forgot a string when they built it?



i think you mean they forgot 2 strings


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