# Axe-Fx III is now $1999 in the US and Canada



## Lorcan Ward (Oct 11, 2019)

> The Fractal Audio Axe-Fx III is now just $1999.99 in the USA and Canada!! We negotiated a great deal with our manufacturing partner, so we’re passing the savings on to you. There’s never been a better time to get the world’s most powerful all-in-one processor for guitar and bass!.



It could be a long time before that price drop effects EU and other distributors but thats a tempting price. It will also push the re-sale value of the II and Ultra way down. Not to mention a used III would be worth less than $1800 now.


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## narad (Oct 11, 2019)

I have a feeling adoption was pretty low. They've been hounding me non-stop since getting on the III list when it was first announced. I guess that's getting to be a pretty good price though.


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## Albake21 (Oct 11, 2019)

That's a pretty decent price! Although, I'm still waiting for the damn FM3 to show up.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

narad said:


> I have a feeling adoption was pretty low.



As they get better and better, cheaper and cheaper on the used market, the less uptake on the new stuff immediately. 

I want a III, but I'm totally happy with my IIXL+%#<>£.


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## Shask (Oct 11, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I want a III, but I'm totally happy with my IIXL+%#<>£.



I am sure that is an issue. Many people just dont feel like the need the III over the II.


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## budda (Oct 11, 2019)

Im probably going to get one.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 11, 2019)

narad said:


> I have a feeling adoption was pretty low.



I think you're on to something there. There was so much hype with the II that people upgraded or jumped to buy one. I've barely heard anything about the III this year.


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## Nicki (Oct 11, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I think you're on to something there. There was so much hype with the II that people upgraded or jumped to buy one. I've barely heard anything about the III this year.


Because all the hype has been on the Helix, which makes sense. It's just as good as the Axe III and it's cheaper. From what I've seen, adoption rate on the Helix has been huge. It was only a matter of time until Fractal was forced to do something like this to be able to compete.


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## dhgrind (Oct 11, 2019)

Nicki said:


> Because all the hype has been on the Helix, which makes sense. It's just as good as the Axe III and it's cheaper. From what I've seen, adoption rate on the Helix has been huge. It was only a matter of time until Fractal was forced to do something like this to be able to compete.



is the helix as good or better with high gain metal stuff? The majority of the adoption for line 6 is Praise and Worship and we all know Jesus doesn’t get down to grindcore in a large audience.


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## mnemonic (Oct 11, 2019)

Something like Helix will always have higher adoption since it’s made in much greater quantity, and has much wider distribution. You can try one in a store and buy one from almost any retailer.

I imagine adoption probably has been lower than the Axe II, however. I think maybe we have passed that exponential improvements phase of amp modeling, and now the main difference between axe II and Axe III is power-user stuff. Whereas the difference between Axe Ultra and Axe II was pretty major after a short time.

Think of it like early smartphones. Difference between an iPhone 1, iphone 3, iphone 4, were pretty major. But at this point the difference between an iPhone 7, 8, 10, is really only noticeable if you’re a power-user.

That’s just my take though.


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## budda (Oct 11, 2019)

dhgrind said:


> is the helix as good or better with high gain metal stuff? The majority of the adoption for line 6 is Praise and Worship and we all know Jesus doesn’t get down to grindcore in a large audience.



Depends how well you can dial it in.

Is this the new permanent price btw?


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

dhgrind said:


> is the helix as good or better with high gain metal stuff? The majority of the adoption for line 6 is Praise and Worship and we all know Jesus doesn’t get down to grindcore in a large audience.


As a Helix user from the release and occasional fractal user, the Helix is EXCELLENT for just about everything, given you're not giving yourself option paralysis by microtweaking just because you can, as is the Fractal stuff with the same logic. I still think Fractal's amp modeling has a very, VERY slightly better feel when playing through a real guitar cab, but it was not a $1000 value in difference (I'm counting a foot controller and expression pedal in the cost, because what good is a rack unit if you can't control it, and what good is a floor controller with no expression pedal?). It wasn't even a $100 value in difference, IMO, ESPECIALLY for high gain tones unless there is a very specific amp model you have to have that the Fractal has. Kemper feels better than both of them, but the UI, lack of FX, and limited adjust-ability per profile made it seem more like "lifestyle" purchase than actual useful piece of gear for my use.


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## Thaeon (Oct 11, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> Something like Helix will always have higher adoption since it’s made in much greater quantity, and has much wider distribution. You can try one in a store and buy one from almost any retailer.
> 
> I imagine adoption probably has been lower than the Axe II, however. I think maybe we have passed that exponential improvements phase of amp modeling, and now the main difference between axe II and Axe III is power-user stuff. Whereas the difference between Axe Ultra and Axe II was pretty major after a short time.
> 
> ...



The biggest improvements now will be miniaturization as that is where are the R&D is in tech right now, and in manufacturing efficiency/cost. Line 6 will always have a lower cost device because they will make/sell more and thus get a better deal on components and manufacturing. The end result is going to be a sacrifice in quality control generally speaking. I'm not rushing out to get either, because honestly, I spend too much time tweaking and not enough playing when using those things.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> I'm not rushing out to get either, because honestly, I spend too much time tweaking and not enough playing when using those things.


OT a little bit, but this is generally the biggest problem I've seen most people have with modelers. They tweak right past great tones because the options are there to do so, then complain that nothing sounds good. I was a doing a recording project years ago with a friend and we dialed in a sick distortion tone, but I came back the next day and she had basically spent three hours after I left fucking with it and then it sounded like ass, lol.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 11, 2019)

budda said:


> Is this the new permanent price btw?



I was wondering this as well.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Oct 11, 2019)

That's a price that's hard to ignore for this unit. They're competing against the Helix that has an insanely intuitive UI, a good piece of hardware, and some good sounds in it. 



GunpointMetal said:


> OT a little bit, but this is generally the biggest problem I've seen most people have with modelers. They tweak right past great tones because the options are there to do so, then complain that nothing sounds good. I was a doing a recording project years ago with a friend and we dialed in a sick distortion tone, but I came back the next day and she had basically spent three hours after I left fucking with it and then it sounded like ass, lol.



This is precisely why I left modelers behind; because it was a 4:1 ratio of tweaking to playing. But now my pedalboard is stupid big and the Fractal boxes are starting to look like an alternative to a spaceship pedalboard again.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> This is precisely why I left modelers behind; because it was a 4:1 ratio of tweaking to playing. But now my pedalboard is stupid big and the Fractal boxes are starting to look like an alternative to a spaceship pedalboard again.


That's how I ended up at them in first place. I was buying extra pedals all the damn time, because I wanted so stack delays, or have wildly varied settings for different parts of a song where it wasn't feasible to bend over and precisely adjust pedals while playing. I guess I'm lucky because I never have that issue with tweaking. I get a sound I like, and I leave it alone, lol. I know a lot of people see a knob, and they have to turn it. My bassist was like that. He liked how simple my setup was, so he got a floor modeler, and proceeded to have different/shitty tones every time he plugged in because he couldn't just leave the damn thing alone once it was dialed in. Now he's got a B7K Ultra and two pedals, an we're all much, much happier about it.


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## Thaeon (Oct 11, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> OT a little bit, but this is generally the biggest problem I've seen most people have with modelers. They tweak right past great tones because the options are there to do so, then complain that nothing sounds good. I was a doing a recording project years ago with a friend and we dialed in a sick distortion tone, but I came back the next day and she had basically spent three hours after I left fucking with it and then it sounded like ass, lol.



I got some really good sounds out of my AssFX II. I just couldn't hear myself going direct to PA. Literally ever, even with a monitor blasting at my head. I just couldn't get it to cut or punch like a tube amp. So I gave up and went back to head and cab.



Captain Butterscotch said:


> That's a price that's hard to ignore for this unit. They're competing against the Helix that has an insanely intuitive UI, a good piece of hardware, and some good sounds in it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely why I left modelers behind; because it was a 4:1 ratio of tweaking to playing. But now my pedalboard is stupid big and the Fractal boxes are starting to look like an alternative to a spaceship pedalboard again.



Seriously...

I have a giant board with five pedals and a MIDI switcher on it. Doesn't even take up half of my real estate. Two of the pedals aren't even part of my current signal chain.


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## mnemonic (Oct 11, 2019)

I only get the impulse to tweak tweak tweak when I’m not 100% happy with the tone or feel I’m getting. 

Back in the day when I had a PodXT, I was constantly fiddling with it. 

With my real amps it’s often set-and-forget (if it’s an amp I can get along with). 

With the axe FX ii over the last 8 or 10 months, it’s been set-and-forget. Prior to that I would still have tweaking sessions like once a week or so when I started not liking my patch, but the update from however many months ago pretty much ‘got there’ in my book.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> I got some really good sounds out of my AssFX II. I just couldn't hear myself going direct to PA. Literally ever, even with a monitor blasting at my head. I just couldn't get it to cut or punch like a tube amp. So I gave up and went back to head and cab.


That's just a case of wrong tool for the job. I can use a wedge on stage because my bass player is reasonable and plays through an avatar 1x12 (which is still loud AF in most venues),we run IEMs, and I'm the only guitar player. If I had another guitarist on stage running a "standard" rig, or our bassist insisted on using a fridge everywhere, or we didn't use IEMs, I'd put a real cab and power amp on stage because it's gonna be the only way to keep the stage sound balanced. I know we're drifting OT, but as someone who has been using modelers for over a decade now, it's funny to me to see people complain about a PA wedge not sound like a 4x12....like no shit, it's not a 4x12, of course it doesn't sound the same on stage, lol.


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## Thaeon (Oct 11, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> That's just a case of wrong tool for the job. I can use a wedge on stage because my bass player is reasonable and plays through an avatar 1x12 (which is still loud AF in most venues),we run IEMs, and I'm the only guitar player. If I had another guitarist on stage running a "standard" rig, or our bassist insisted on using a fridge everywhere, or we didn't use IEMs, I'd put a real cab and power amp on stage because it's gonna be the only way to keep the stage sound balanced. I know we're drifting OT, but as someone who has been using modelers for over a decade now, it's funny to me to see people complain about a PA wedge not sound like a 4x12....like no shit, it's not a 4x12, of course it doesn't sound the same on stage, lol.



Yeah, I agree. But my whole reason for getting it was to reduce stage volume and to carry less stuff. None of the places I played were adequately equipped for a rig like that, and the other guitar player was using a 100 Watt open back tube combo. Hardly anyone was using that sort of setup on a small scale then. Still there was the endless tweaking. That ultimately is what left me the most dissatisfied.

Back on topic. I think that eventually the sort of processing horsepower we're seeing in the AFXIII is going to find inside of a standard size pedal. It'll be a tiny box with a USB-C port, MIDI I/O and stereo I/O. You'll program it with your computer, and switch it with a MIDI controller.


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## budda (Oct 11, 2019)

I mean, that's my plan . III, MC6, power amp, cab.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> Back on topic. I think that eventually the sort of processing horsepower we're seeing in the AFXIII is going to find inside of a standard size pedal. It'll be a tiny box with a USB-C port, MIDI I/O and stereo I/O. You'll program it with your computer, and switch it with a MIDI controller.


 I will be stupid happy when I can get all the processing of the Helix in a single pedal format and customize my controls. Probably won't even need a computer, just an app and Bluetooth on your phone.


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## Thaeon (Oct 11, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> I will be stupid happy when I can get all the processing of the Helix in a single pedal format and customize my controls. Probably won't even need a computer, just an app and Bluetooth on your phone.



Considering the size of a bluetooth chip? Yes. Though, I don't think I'd like the interface size of a phone screen for that specific task. I do think that it would be useful for on the go, oh shit the monitor mix is hot I better back off the mix on the delay a bit to keep a feedback loop from happening.


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## Shask (Oct 11, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> I will be stupid happy when I can get all the processing of the Helix in a single pedal format and customize my controls. Probably won't even need a computer, just an app and Bluetooth on your phone.



I think we are a LONG way away from that happening. DSPs aren't produced on the large scale as much as general microprocessors, and they do not progress as fast. Super powerful DSPs just aren't needed in most industries, but are the heart of guitar modelers.


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## Jeff (Oct 11, 2019)

So now it's only $1999, plus $199 for the warranty (since the standard warranty is crap), and $499 for the smaller pedalboard. What a deal!


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## budda (Oct 11, 2019)

Jeff said:


> So now it's only $1999, plus $199 for the warranty (since the standard warranty is crap), and $499 for the smaller pedalboard. What a deal!



Does line 6 also offer an extended warranty? I know our national chain offers them but figured I would ask.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 11, 2019)

budda said:


> Does line 6 also offer an extended warranty? I know our national chain offers them but figured I would ask.


I think the standard one is for one year, then they do offer extended warranty options starting at like $59/year or something like that.


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## Jeff (Oct 11, 2019)

budda said:


> Does line 6 also offer an extended warranty? I know our national chain offers them but figured I would ask.



Nope, but I got my Stomp through Sweetwater, which gives me two years for free. Kemper has a three year warranty.


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## Darchetype (Oct 11, 2019)

They better hurry and release the damn FM3 already before people just buy this since it's so much lower. Does anyone know the release date for that?


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## budda (Oct 11, 2019)

Darchetype said:


> They better hurry and release the damn FM3 already before people just buy this since it's so much lower. Does anyone know the release date for that?



I think the point is probably to sell more of the flagship unit


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## Metropolis (Oct 11, 2019)

Darchetype said:


> They better hurry and release the damn FM3 already before people just buy this since it's so much lower. Does anyone know the release date for that?



Early 2020 I think, shipping in january/february.


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## mongey (Oct 11, 2019)

Fractal is always gonna a fam base but I def feel like the hype has died off a bit. It was the hot bit of gear for a while


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## sharedEQ (Oct 11, 2019)

Way overpriced.

Modeling is no better than competition.

Add a foot controller and you're at 3k.

Major selling point was IRs, that everyone does now.

Doesn't have instant patch switching or spillover.

UI is not best in class.

It's a dinosaur before it was released.


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## narad (Oct 11, 2019)

Shask said:


> I think we are a LONG way away from that happening. DSPs aren't produced on the large scale as much as general microprocessors, and they do not progress as fast. Super powerful DSPs just aren't needed in most industries, but are the heart of guitar modelers.



This seems true for a future where people try to get something like the AxeFX on to their phone, but I think it's more likely that dedicated deep learning inference chips make their way into phones to support hosts of other applications, and next-gen amp/effects modeling are implemented along those lines.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

mongey said:


> Fractal is always gonna a fam base but I def feel like the hype has died off a bit. It was the hot bit of gear for a while



They're no longer a rare, boutique item. They're everywhere, so there's less hype surrounding them. 

Not to mention we've reached the point where there's no reason to rush to upgrade. Folks are still using the older units because they still sound great. 

Besides that, the landscape has changed significantly since the Standard and Ultra came out over a decade ago. Competition from Kemper and Line 6, as well as the popularity of lunchbox amps and pedal preamps is a big factor.


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## katsumura78 (Oct 12, 2019)

Figures I bought one a couple months ago. Anyone saying it’s overpriced is silly, Fractal does modeling better than anyone out there. Free firmware updates and a product that’s supported even after it’s discontinued. It curbs a lot of pedal/gear gas too. My Axe II saved me a ton of money over the years.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 12, 2019)

katsumura78 said:


> Figures I bought one a couple months ago. Anyone saying it’s overpriced is silly, *Fractal does modeling better than anyone out there. *Free firmware updates and a product that’s supported even after it’s discontinued. It curbs a lot of pedal/gear gas too. My Axe II saved me a ton of money over the years.



No. No they don't.

The fractal has the processing power to run expensive reverbs, but the amp model algos are not better than the competition.

The fractal approach seems to be "moar CPU cycles! Moar amp models!" but it doesn't really improve their models.

Look at the Atomic, which has much more modest processor, fewer models, but they focused on quality, and the models are every bit as good as the fractal ones.

Personally, when I hear fractal models, its like they are all missing HF content, they don't correctly model grind and sizzle. Fractal does credible "mesa" sounds, but not so great at "marshall". Its like they chop off some of the HF content so they don't get accused of being "harsh" or "digital".

Its totally incorrect to assume that because the pricetag is higher that the modeling is better. Of course, they want you to believe that; it's been their marketing strategy.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 12, 2019)

Shask said:


> I think we are a LONG way away from that happening. DSPs aren't produced on the large scale as much as general microprocessors, and they do not progress as fast. Super powerful DSPs just aren't needed in most industries, but are the heart of guitar modelers.



Roland produces their own proprietary DSP chips used in synths and guitar processors like the GT series.

if you look at prior generation of dsp, the one used in Katana, GT1, GT100, you will see that chip used in their synthesizers as well. They are able to parallelize them for more power, one of the synths (forget name) has 3x the dsp chip as the GT100. Of course the GT1000 has newer generation dsp chip, but we might assume they can be parallelized. There is probably a new synth in their line up that does just this.

The point is that at least Roland has figured out how to double/triple/quadruple dsp power by incorporating multiple chips in the same design. 

Even if DSP chips do not progress as quickly (niche), multiples can be used as required.


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## budda (Oct 12, 2019)

Man, which fractal product hurt you


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## sharedEQ (Oct 12, 2019)

budda said:


> Man, which fractal product hurt you



They hurt the industry.

They tripled the price of "flagship" modelers through largely hyperbolic marketing.


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## narad (Oct 12, 2019)

I hate them and their audacity to release products that set new standards in accurate modeling and charge money for them.

I'm back to real amps now for a bit better sound and more fun interface but I was a Axe user for like 4 years, Axe II user for like another 6 if I got my math right. Doubt we'd even be talking about modelers much these days without Fractal -- someone needed to break through the modeling stigma with a product that raised the bar a few times over.


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## mnemonic (Oct 12, 2019)

Was there even such thing as a high end modeler before the axe FX standard way back in the day? 

I only remember the Pods and some Boss stuff, all foreign-made and not really high quality. 



sharedEQ said:


> The fractal approach seems to be "moar CPU cycles! Moar amp models!" but it doesn't really improve their models.
> .



Lol what.

Fractal are pretty consistent with constant modeling improvements. Over the years I’ve had an Axe II, there have been a lot of improvements to the amp modeling along the way, and I’ve even gone back and loaded year or two old firmwares to compare to the more current stuff.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> They hurt the industry.
> 
> They tripled the price of "flagship" modelers through largely hyperbolic marketing.



The AxeFx Standard came out in 2006.

Line 6 was still using their XT models. The 
next biggest name, Roland/Boss was still pumping their first generation COSM engine.

The AxeFx was light years better than the competition. Fractal was a small company with a revolutionary product and the price reflected that.

They set a bar that other modeling tech needed to reach and probably launched modeling technology via competition and expanded market a decade ahead of where it would be now.

If it wasn't for Fractal, do you think there would even be a Helix?


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## nightlight (Oct 12, 2019)

Fractal Audio gets a lot of hate, but I've always been really keen to own one of their modellers.

I have a Kemper, but it's not really a modeller by my reckoning. You get someone's take on an amp or clone your own. 

It's pretty accurate, but I admire bands like Periphery and Meshuggah who used the Axe FX to create completely new tones that people are now copying these days. That's not something you can do with the Kemper.

On the flip side of this price cut, a lot of users are going to be unhappy that they paid the old price and now the value of their product has diminished further. 

In contrast, look at the Kemper, which has gone up in value since I bought my first one in 2013. While the objective may be to increase sales, some people are going to look at a cheaper modeller like the Kemper Stage, which is just as good tone-wise and is likely to hold its value better.


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## Jeff (Oct 12, 2019)

I think the reason many people dislike Fractal is because a huge percentage of their user base are elitist tools. It gets tiring when people act as if their shit is better all the time. Like, whatever floats your boat, but don’t be a douche about it, ya know? 
I have two Mesa Boogies, so my tone is better anyway.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I think the reason many people dislike Fractal is because a huge percentage of their user base are elitist tools. It gets tiring when people act as if their shit is better all the time. Like, whatever floats your boat, but don’t be a douche about it, ya know?
> I have two Mesa Boogies, so my tone is better anyway.




I think that goes for just about any gear at or above a certain price or some form of exclusivity.


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## 4Eyes (Oct 12, 2019)

I think that story behind price drop is that Axe FX III is not selling that good. Most of the Axe FX II owners can't justify switching to III, when they are completely happy with how their IIs sound. 

and those, who are thinking of upgrading/switching are waiting for FM3 which will deliver same modelling technology in much more compact and convenient package.

Compact, powerful DSP processors like HX Stomp, FM3... are the future...at least for the most of the mortals


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## Darchetype (Oct 12, 2019)

4Eyes said:


> I think that story behind price drop is that Axe FX III is not selling that good. Most of the Axe FX II owners can't justify switching to III, when they are completely happy with how their IIs sound.
> 
> and those, who are thinking of upgrading/switching are waiting for FM3 which will deliver same modelling technology in much more compact and convenient package.
> 
> Compact, powerful DSP processors like HX Stomp, FM3... are the future...at least for the most of the mortals


Exactly. Fractal is not going to admit that the 3 is not selling so they come up with BS about how they found a way to sell them cheaper.


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## DarthV (Oct 12, 2019)

High end stuff is getting good enough that there's no reason to upgrade when the next version comes out.


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## noise in my mind (Oct 12, 2019)

I bet most people here could not hear the difference in a mix from a real amp, fractal, kemper, helix, neural dsp etc. It's all good these days.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

noise in my mind said:


> I bet most people here could not hear the difference in a mix from a real amp, fractal, kemper, helix, neural dsp etc. It's all good these days.



I'd go one step further and say that most couldn't pick the exact amp, regardless of source, from a finished mix.

But you don't just create polished tracks from playing, so it's not really here nor there.

I have an Axe2 and a Kemper and they sound quite different, not bad or better or whatever, just different. They also function much differently in use.


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## Jeff (Oct 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think that goes for just about any gear at or above a certain price or some form of exclusivity.



to an extent I think you’re right. The Helix FB Group is proof of that. But Fractal fans have the “First to market with a quality modeler” douchebag honor rights.  

kinda like Pro Tools users.


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## noise in my mind (Oct 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd go one step further and say that most couldn't pick the exact amp, regardless of source, from a finished mix.
> 
> But you don't just create polished tracks from playing, so it's not really here nor there.
> 
> I have an Axe2 and a Kemper and they sound quite different, not bad or better or whatever, just different. They also function much differently in use.



Yeah, I agree. It all sounds good to me, it just comes down to your workflow and needs. You really can't go wrong these days.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

Jeff said:


> to an extent I think you’re right. The Helix FB Group is proof of that. But Fractal fans have the “First to market with a quality modeler” douchebag honor rights.
> 
> kinda like Pro Tools users.



Hey, it's not Fractal's fault that Line 6 basically gave up and didn't think anyone would beat them at their own game, and Roland/Boss and Digitech didn't think there was much of a future to digital amp modeling. 

It's really a testament to how far ahead Fractal was when it took nearly a decade (2006 to 2015) for Line 6, the industry leader, to have a legitimate AxeFx competitor on hand. 

If it wasn't for Fractal re-energizing the modeling market we wouldn't have some of the more interesting new products in either the modeling or "not big amp" markets.


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## Mathemagician (Oct 12, 2019)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> That's a price that's hard to ignore for this unit. They're competing against the Helix that has an insanely intuitive UI, a good piece of hardware, and some good sounds in it.
> 
> 
> 
> This is precisely why I left modelers behind; because it was a 4:1 ratio of tweaking to playing. But now my pedalboard is stupid big and the Fractal boxes are starting to look like an alternative to a spaceship pedalboard again.



Man I own a helix rack and everyone talks about how intuitive the UI is and I’m just here like .... ok how do I grab this one setting and save it? Where did it save? Shit. 

Been debating getting an FM3 when they come out due to me using so few features of a helix rack but I’m worried I’ll still have the same issue. I just really don’t want to SIT and LEARN my amp. Even if it can do the 100% exact thing I want. Playing with dials is sooooo boring. It’s definitely a me issue, but I want to wait and see how user friendly the FM3 is and then decide from there.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> Man I own a helix rack and everyone talks about how intuitive the UI is and I’m just here like .... ok how do I grab this one setting and save it? Where did it save? Shit.
> 
> Been debating getting an FM3 when they come out due to me using so few features of a helix rack but I’m worried I’ll still have the same issue. I just really don’t want to SIT and LEARN my amp. Even if it can do the 100% exact thing I want. Playing with dials is sooooo boring. It’s definitely a me issue, but I want to wait and see how user friendly the FM3 is and then decide from there.



It sounds like you want a Kemper. 

Of all the digital stuff it's probably the most straightforward _for most people_. 

Once you load the profile, it's mostly physical knobs and buttons.


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## rokket2005 (Oct 12, 2019)

I was pretty stalwart in the camp against fractal for years, then I bought a III in August on whim. The point that people make about not being able to tell a modeler vs. a real amp doesn't really matter to me, because 99% of people who listen to music don't give a shit. Guitarists on forums will argue about this stuff, but when I listen to new music whether it be something I like or not, I'm thinking about the music, not what gear they used to make it. Now extrapolate that to the general population and most of them don't know the difference between a Telecaster and a Stratocaster. I used to care about this stuff, but at this point it sounds good and ease of use is a huge factor in if I get anything done songwriting/recordingwise


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## sharedEQ (Oct 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The AxeFx
> The AxeFx was light years better than the competition. Fractal was a small company with a revolutionary product and the price reflected that.


No. No it wasn't.

They had the marketing down, and backed it with a high price tag, but the modeling wasn't any better than the GT-10 or POD.

They exploited a desire for "high end" modeling, largly by affixing a higher price tag. The models were the same quality as competition. The UI was substandard compared to Roland.

They did start the IR craze, that was the only thing they brought to the table. But that wasn't their invention, people were hacking their digitech GSP so they could load user IRs. I think he just copied what people were doing with the GSP.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hey, it's not Fractal's fault that Line 6 basically gave up and didn't think anyone would beat them at their own game, *and Roland/Boss and Digitech didn't think there was much of a future to digital amp modeling. *
> 
> It's really a testament to how far ahead Fractal was when it took nearly a decade (2006 to 2015) for Line 6, the industry leader, to have a legitimate AxeFx competitor on hand.
> 
> If it wasn't for Fractal re-energizing the modeling market we wouldn't have some of the more interesting new products in either the modeling or "not big amp" markets.



Fractal fanboys are delusional. Roland started this product space and religiously released upgrades to their GT product line.

Fractal was largely niche amongst metalheads, but didn't really change "real world" use of these devices or the Roland product roadmap.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> No. No it wasn't.
> 
> They had the marketing down, and backed it with a high price tag, but the modeling wasn't any better than the GT-10 or POD.
> 
> ...



We'll have to disagree there then. 

I still have my POD XT Live (w/ all the add-on packs) and it doesn't sound as good as easily as my Axe Standard, which I also still have. Neither running IRs. The interfaces are nearly identical too.


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## budda (Oct 12, 2019)

Really dude?


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 12, 2019)

love these low post accounts that are solely reserved for spicy spicy takes.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 12, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Fractal fanboys are delusional. Roland started this product space and religiously released upgrades to their GT product line.
> 
> Fractal was largely niche amongst metalheads, but didn't really change "real world" use of these devices or the Roland product roadmap.



I'm not even super into Fractal, more of a Kemper and real amp user these days. Chill out. 

Roland helped start the digital effects space, but for guitarists Line 6 was the king of amp modeling. 

Fractal got big in the boutique gear scene, just look over at TGP, Big Racks, and BaM around 2006 through 2010. All three of those places aren't necessarily havens of extreme metal.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> but the modeling wasn't any better than the GT-10



I don't recall people having to jump through hoops and ladders to get rid of the cocked wah sounds or in their first-gen Axe FX ultras.


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## Jeff (Oct 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hey, it's not Fractal's fault that Line 6 basically gave up and didn't think anyone would beat them at their own game, and Roland/Boss and Digitech didn't think there was much of a future to digital amp modeling.
> 
> It's really a testament to how far ahead Fractal was when it took nearly a decade (2006 to 2015) for Line 6, the industry leader, to have a legitimate AxeFx competitor on hand.
> 
> If it wasn't for Fractal re-energizing the modeling market we wouldn't have some of the more interesting new products in either the modeling or "not big amp" markets.



they certainly lit a fire, that’s for sure. Line 6 sucked before the Helix.


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## Jeff (Oct 12, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't recall people having to jump through hoops and ladders to get rid of the cocked wah sounds or in their first-gen Axe FX ultras.



nah, the Ultra is still a pretty solid unit even today, with a good IR.


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## hvdh (Oct 12, 2019)

Jeff said:


> nah, the Ultra is still a pretty solid unit even today, with a good IR.



If the "military grade" data wheel, the plastic input, the fan, the internal connectors or the not balanced output volume is not fu&^ed.
It is made for a whole life they said. Therefor they gave you a life time garantee and support. 
But after 2 years they told the customers that supports ended because a new model came out. Men even Windows acts better then that.
And then they expect you to buy the newe version? Nope! Looks like more people talk with their wallet. Much hapier with the Hotone Ampero.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2019)

Jeff said:


> nah, the Ultra is still a pretty solid unit even today, with a good IR.


Agreed. Comparing it with a POD or GT10 is hilarious.  I've seen people running tons of EQs and shit on their PODS and GT10s to get decent sounds. With the Axe you need just probably one para or graphic EQ and you're solid.


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## Jeff (Oct 12, 2019)

hvdh said:


> If the "military grade" data wheel, the plastic input, the fan, the internal connectors or the not balanced output volume is not fu&^ed.
> It is made for a whole life they said. Therefor they gave you a life time garantee and support.
> But after 2 years they told the customers that supports ended because a new model came out. Men even Windows acts better then that.
> And then they expect you to buy the newe version? Nope! Looks like more people talk with their wallet. Much hapier with the Hotone Ampero.



that’s certainly justifiably annoying. Luckily there are many options out there now, if you don’t like how they do business (which you obviously took advantage of). Lots of companies catching up.


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## nightlight (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> No. No it wasn't.
> 
> They had the marketing down, and backed it with a high price tag, but the modeling wasn't any better than the GT-10 or POD.
> 
> ...



Give credit where it's due. The Axe FX certainly revolutionised digital guitar FX, both in terms of the amp tones as well as the effects. 

Comparing it to a Boss GT-10 or POD is not at all realistic, do you remember the fizz everyone was constantly trying to dial out? 

Even with the Helix, I definitely think it has the edge tone-wise. And if they started the whole trend of IRs, good for them.


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## Spinedriver (Oct 13, 2019)

Thing is, Fractal is no different than any other company. People can debate all day about the quality but comparing them to Zoom, Boss, etc.. is like comparing Kia or Fiat to Ferrari. At the time (and even now) the features of the Axe -Fx go so far beyond the other modellers, it really is hard to compare. Not just IR loading but they were the 1st to come up with the grid/block system where you can select pretty much any effect and put it literally anywhere in the signal chain you want. At the time even the Pod & GSP1101 only had 1 or 2 effects that you could but either before or after the amp & that was it. Along with that, the connectivity on the actual harware was insane. 

As for the price drop, that's the price of 'being 1st to get one'. Look at game consoles, video cards, etc.. Tons of people get on lists/stand in line to be the first to get one and generally within 6 months, the companies start the first of many 'price drops'. Granted pedals, amps & guitars don't always work that way in that whatever price they sell for initially, is pretty much the same price it's gonna be in 5 years down the road (unless it's used or a "discontinued" sale). But for those that jump on the waiting list for 'pre-order', it's either a) get bragging rights of being the 1st one to have it or b) wait a few months & see if the price drops.


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## nightlight (Oct 13, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> Not just IR loading but they were the 1st to come up with the grid/block system where you can select pretty much any effect and put it literally anywhere in the signal chain you want. At the time even the Pod & GSP1101 only had 1 or 2 effects that you could but either before or after the amp & that was it. Along with that, the connectivity on the actual harware was insane.
> 
> As for the price drop, that's the price of 'being 1st to get one'. Look at game consoles, video cards, etc.. Tons of people get on lists/stand in line to be the first to get one and generally within 6 months, the companies start the first of many 'price drops'. Granted pedals, amps & guitars don't always work that way in that whatever price they sell for initially, is pretty much the same price it's gonna be in 5 years down the road (unless it's used or a "discontinued" sale). But for those that jump on the waiting list for 'pre-order', it's either a) get bragging rights of being the 1st one to have it or b) wait a few months & see if the price drops.



Actually, the Boss GT-8 could do this, I think there were 8 blocks IIRC and you could place any block anywhere. But it wasn't a stereo signal chain.

I don't think regular consumer electronics can be compared to musical gear. Plus, the AxeFx3 is still new, I think out less than two years. In the guitar world, I really can't recall any FX unit having its price slashed except during sales


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## laxu (Oct 13, 2019)

noise in my mind said:


> I bet most people here could not hear the difference in a mix from a real amp, fractal, kemper, helix, neural dsp etc. It's all good these days.



Even when playing it yourself it might be hard. When I had the Axe-Fx 2 I was growing tired of its annoying user interface (software editor is the best on the market though) so I decided to compare it to Helix Native, using the Axe-Fx 2 as an audio interface, using the same impulse responses using their respective cab sims etc so the main thing being compared was the amp modeling and not I/O etc. I setup my MIDI controller to switch between the two.

I took one of my favorite Axe-Fx 2 patches that was your typical cranked Marshall Superlead sound I had fine tuned over the years. I went to work replicating it on the Helix and the amp sim settings were very different from what I had on my Axe-Fx but the sound was 99% the same, to the point that I had to check which was which when I started stomping on the toggle footswitch. I did still give a _je ne sais quoi _quality to the Axe-Fx 2 that I felt made it better, but the result was close enough that I would not care. The far better usability of the Helix hardware was more important for me.

While I think Fractal is still the top dog when it comes to amp modeling and they keep making it better all the time, it's no longer the situation of the Axe-Fx Std/Ultra/II days when they were so far ahead of the competition that I was willing to ignore the deficiencies in usability. The competition has caught up and I've gotten great results from Helix, plugins, Yamaha THR100HD etc.

Fractal should be celebrated for making continuous, transparent development a norm rather than exception in modelers. Instead of just dumping a product on the market and maybe giving it one firmware update years along the line we expect better support which to be fair is also good for the manufacturer because they don't need to build a new thing from the ground up but can just expand on the existing one as long as there is room for firmware. Axe-Fx Standard/Ultra primarily ran out of firmware space to fit more stuff and even the II years along the line had to sacrifice going back to previous firmware versions from the UI to allow for Axe-Fx 3 modeling to be ported to it.

At this point I just don't feel Fractal should be a hardware company. They can't compete with Yamaha/Line6 or Roland/Boss in cost so the main thing keeping them in the game is that their software is better than the competition. The FM3 has been delayed, the FC controllers took forever to get out and are expensive, the Axe-Fx 3 is very expensive and overkill for all but power users and those few who want to run their 2 guitars + bass band's whole rig through it.

I want Fractal to be around because they are willing to look at things the other manufacturers don't. For example their recent Axe-Fx 3 "Gain enhancer" feature sounds like a great idea and I would not expect that to come from anyone else. I just don't want to buy their hardware anymore because I don't feel it's that great to operate.


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## 4Eyes (Oct 13, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> As for the price drop, that's the price of 'being 1st to get one'. Look at game consoles, video cards, etc.. Tons of people get on lists/stand in line to be the first to get one and generally within 6 months, the companies start the first of many 'price drops'. Granted pedals, amps & guitars don't always work that way in that whatever price they sell for initially, is pretty much the same price it's gonna be in 5 years down the road (unless it's used or a "discontinued" sale). But for those that jump on the waiting list for 'pre-order', it's either a) get bragging rights of being the 1st one to have it or b) wait a few months & see if the price drops.



Wasn't Fractal like - "we'll get you new, updated HW without any price increase" since Ultras? And the price was pretty much the same. They simply got the marketing wrong - initially they said it's about future proofing and there is no need for existing Axe FX II users to switch immediately, in the meantime they announced FM3 which is more convenient for touring musicians. And also Line 6 is killing it with their Helix line which sounds equally good for less $$$. So, I'm not sure about what "price for being first" you're talking about, at least in case of Fractal


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## noise in my mind (Oct 13, 2019)

laxu said:


> Even when playing it yourself it might be hard. When I had the Axe-Fx 2 I was growing tired of its annoying user interface (software editor is the best on the market though) so I decided to compare it to Helix Native, using the Axe-Fx 2 as an audio interface, using the same impulse responses using their respective cab sims etc so the main thing being compared was the amp modeling and not I/O etc. I setup my MIDI controller to switch between the two.
> 
> I took one of my favorite Axe-Fx 2 patches that was your typical cranked Marshall Superlead sound I had fine tuned over the years. I went to work replicating it on the Helix and the amp sim settings were very different from what I had on my Axe-Fx but the sound was 99% the same, to the point that I had to check which was which when I started stomping on the toggle footswitch. I did still give a _je ne sais quoi _quality to the Axe-Fx 2 that I felt made it better, but the result was close enough that I would not care. The far better usability of the Helix hardware was more important for me.
> 
> ...



I agree with everything you said. I think fractal maybe is just consolidating their market options to the cork sniffer power users. At least that would be my guess. They are a small company and may be able to thrive to this degree.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 13, 2019)

It's interesting to read the revisionist history of the fanboys. I'm not saying they are making stuff up, I'm sure they believe every word.

Fractal positioned itself as boutique digital with the higher price, yet the only tangible benefit was user loadable irs. The models themselves were virtually identical quality.

The interface was far worse than the boss gt series, and the vast majority of fractal features, in the including pc software and USB interface were in the boss already.

It was the metal community that championed the fractal with cookie cutter, doubletracked and downtuned metal tones. 

Fractal phenomenon was 90 pct marketing and it tapped into a desire for "boutique" digital with higher pricetag. Underlying tech virtually identical and inferior in some ways.


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## narad (Oct 13, 2019)

You going to show some evidence or just repeat a fringe opinion over-and-over?


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## laxu (Oct 13, 2019)

4Eyes said:


> Wasn't Fractal like - "we'll get you new, updated HW without any price increase" since Ultras? And the price was pretty much the same. They simply got the marketing wrong - initially they said it's about future proofing and there is no need for existing Axe FX II users to switch immediately, in the meantime they announced FM3 which is more convenient for touring musicians. And also Line 6 is killing it with their Helix line which sounds equally good for less $$$. So, I'm not sure about what "price for being first" you're talking about, at least in case of Fractal



It's the cost for buying an Axe-Fx or any piece of gear right when it comes to market. In the same vein you can now buy say a 2019 4K TV for less now than you could at the beginning of this year and even cheaper when the 2020 model is out. People are willing to pay more for something if it means they can get it right now or be the first ones to get it.

There was a good bit of time between Axe-Fx Standard and II when they didn't sound different at all and that was true of the Axe-Fx II vs III too IMO. The selling points were slightly better user interface on the II as well as future development, more simultaneous fx etc. Years later the Axe-Fx 2 certainly delivered on that development promise.



sharedEQ said:


> Fractal positioned itself as boutique digital with the higher price, yet the only tangible benefit was user loadable irs. The models themselves were virtually identical quality.



I disagree with this. I felt that their amp modeling was far better than the competition at the time. Line6 and Boss were sitting on their asses with modeling that was subpar even to stuff that came before them. I felt the Yamaha DG and H&K Zentera stuff was unsurpassed until the first Vox Valvetronix. Line6 and Boss were just offering their gear in better formats (POD and floorboard) at a much lower cost. Also far better marketing.

Being a small company I don't see how Fractal could have positioned themselves as anything other than boutique digital, but the Axe-Fx Standard wasn't absurdly expensive, about the same as the upcoming FM3 here in Europe. Still much higher than Line6 or Boss products of course. It wasn't until the Axe-Fx 2 and 3 that their prices went way up as did of course the processing power.

The first videos that made me take notice of Fractal were Ketil Strand's videos on YouTube where he demonstrated a pile of different sounds from famous songs ranging from blues to hard rock. While the Axe-Fx had more mainstream visibility due to metal bands adopting it, there were plenty of people playing other genres that liked them.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> It's interesting to read the revisionist history of the fanboys. I'm not saying they are making stuff up, I'm sure they believe every word.
> 
> Fractal positioned itself as boutique digital with the higher price, yet the only tangible benefit was user loadable irs. The models themselves were virtually identical quality.
> 
> ...



If you think the Axe Standard and Ultra sounded the same as a POD XT, that's fine. You're welcome to that opinion. 

I remember the old POD XT days. Those things could sound cool with enough tweaking. I loved my old Vetta setup.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 13, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you think the Axe Standard and Ultra sounded the same as a POD XT, that's fine. You're welcome to that opinion.
> 
> I remember the old POD XT days. Those things could sound cool with enough tweaking. I loved my old Vetta setup.



Were you playing mostly metal, or other styles?

I think the perspective is going to be different from someone playing exclusively metal.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 13, 2019)

I dunno how anyone thinks that metal drove the adoption of the axe-fx.
I was still mostly on tgp and gt in those days. everybody loved that thing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Were you playing mostly metal, or other styles?
> 
> I think the perspective is going to be different from someone playing exclusively metal.



From 05' to 07' I had a regular bar gig, so a mix of classic rock, alternative, and the occasional 80's glam/hair metal cover. 



diagrammatiks said:


> I dunno how anyone thinks that metal drove the adoption of the axe-fx.
> I was still mostly on tgp and gt in those days. everybody loved that thing.



That's how I remember it. In fact my first post on TGP was summer 2006 asking about a Fuchs and everyone was telling me to try an AxeFx.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 13, 2019)

Ah... TGP.

Thats essentially a marketing platform for american companies. The fractal fanboys migrated to the fractal forum, now TGP is Line6 fanboys and company reps.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Ah... TGP.



yes tgp that bastion of extreme metal and a whole bunch of people just waiting to ditch their tube amps.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Ah... TGP.
> 
> Thats essentially a marketing platform for american companies. The fractal fanboys migrated to the fractal forum, now TGP is Line6 fanboys and company reps.



so your plan is to win arguments with non-sequiturs. 

also good job putting that first year marketing class to work.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 13, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> yes tgp that bastion of extreme metal and a whole bunch of people just waiting to ditch their tube amps.



They were waiting for someone to price a MFX at $2000 in order for it to be "worthy" of their money.

TGP is not a basion of sanity, wisdom, truth, or anything else good.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 13, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> so your plan is to win arguments with non-sequiturs.
> 
> also good job putting that first year marketing class to work.




Got work to do, cant write a book. Later.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Ah... TGP.
> 
> Thats essentially a marketing platform for american companies. The fractal fanboys migrated to the fractal forum, now TGP is Line6 fanboys and company reps.



Yeah, like I said a couple pages back. The hype was outside regular "metal" niches and more in line with boutique gear, which tends to skew lower gain and slower.

It was the same at Big Racks and Birds and Moons. 

The HCAF was also into it by then, but that was always a mixed bag.



diagrammatiks said:


> yes tgp that bastion of extreme metal and a whole bunch of people just waiting to ditch their tube amps.





For real.


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## narad (Oct 13, 2019)

Yea, for real. There's that line in like Tommy Boy "He could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves". That's basically what Cliff did in TGP. There was pitiful acceptance of PODs over there, and probably only because of the people that couldn't play 100Wers in their rooms and the total absence of lunchbox heads at the time.

I think notably, most of the big guys that switched to the Axe did so well after it had peaked over there. Misha was here pushing it, but I feel like the one month return policy and word-of-mouth got a lot of TGP guys to risk it, and were swayed by hands-on experience over marketing. Hell, there was NO marketing for this thing in 2008.


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## budda (Oct 13, 2019)

If you think metal is a big market, I got a bridge to sell you.


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## Spinedriver (Oct 13, 2019)

4Eyes said:


> Wasn't Fractal like - "we'll get you new, updated HW without any price increase" since Ultras? And the price was pretty much the same. They simply got the marketing wrong - initially they said it's about future proofing and there is no need for existing Axe FX II users to switch immediately, in the meantime they announced FM3 which is more convenient for touring musicians. And also Line 6 is killing it with their Helix line which sounds equally good for less $$$. So, I'm not sure about what "price for being first" you're talking about, at least in case of Fractal




Look at the video game industry for example. When things like Nintendo's Virtual Boy came out, people jumped on it and within a year or so the company abandoned it with only 26 or so games ever published. Now granted, Fractal has built a reputation for making (more or less) one of the best rack pre amps available in the world but when you line up to buy the 'new shiny thing' on day one, that also comes with the risk of getting a unit that may or may not have all of the bugs worked out. Not only that but if it turns out (like many have suggested here) that it doesn't quite sell as well as they hoped and they drop the price, early adopters miss out.

I know it's not a nice thing to say but for a lot of companies out there (definitely not all but quite a lot of them), once they have your money, they don't really care so much. Though, with social media and forums being what they are, companies are starting to take notice and are making a concerted effort to improve.


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## Elric (Oct 13, 2019)

LOL @ people who see a sale and think it is some kind of data point regarding product health, etc. You sound like my wife, who like you, does not understand business or math.


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## sakeido (Oct 13, 2019)

Elric said:


> LOL @ people who see a sale and think it is some kind of data point regarding product health, etc. You sound like my wife, who like you, does not understand business or math.



wow I bet she likes you a lot 

Fact is, if the product was shifting big numbers at its old price point, they never would have reduced it. This is Economics 101 - literally week one of the course. Explain to me how it isn't and why my university education is wrong


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## Elric (Oct 13, 2019)

sakeido said:


> wow I bet she likes you a lot
> 
> Fact is, if the product was shifting big numbers at its old price point, they never would have reduced it. This is Economics 101 - literally week one of the course. Explain to me how it isn't and why my university education is wrong


Sorry, not my job to educate you if your school didn’t. There are all kinds of reasons for price drops, both long term and temporary, that do not equate to the product line failing or being unsuccessful. If you cannot come up with a few yourself, I am not sure if it is your school’s fault or your own but: not my problem.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 13, 2019)

man you can't just stop taking classes at 101.


----------



## sakeido (Oct 13, 2019)

Elric said:


> Sorry, not my job to educate you if your school didn’t. There are all kinds of reasons for price drops, both long term and temporary, that do not equate to the product line failing or being unsuccessful. If you cannot come up with a few yourself, I am not sure if it is your school’s fault or your own but: not my problem.



when you show up with a dumbfuck one liner you do in fact take that job upon yourself

Carrying too much stock, need to reduce warehousing costs by shifting more units. Minor design revision, want to clear out the old units to make way for the new. FM3 is on the way, got to either clear up space to stock them. FM3 has 85% of Axe FX 3 features at a way, way lower price, need to make the 3 cheaper or no one will buy it. Early adopter period is over and you can't charge people that premium anymore because they exhausted the pool of buyers willing to overspend on the 3

Even if you use one of these other reasons the underlying cause is they bought too many Axe FX 3s and they aren't selling fast enough. Fractal has been at it a long time. Easy conclusion is they over-estimated how many they were going to sell at the original price. You got enough anecdotal evidence of the 3 hardly popping up in backlines anywhere, even for huge bands that can easily afford them. Overall a good case can be made that Axe 3 sales aren't quite what Fractal has been hoping for

So there ya go. Your turn. Remember, if someone can't explain something simply - they don't understand it. You mentioned both business and math so make sure to cover both.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 13, 2019)

narad said:


> Yea, for real. There's that line in like Tommy Boy "He could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman in white gloves". That's basically what Cliff did in TGP. There was pitiful acceptance of PODs over there, and probably only because of the people that couldn't play 100Wers in their rooms and the total absence of lunchbox heads at the time.
> 
> I think notably, most of the big guys that switched to the Axe did so well after it had peaked over there. Misha was here pushing it, but I feel like the one month return policy and word-of-mouth got a lot of TGP guys to risk it, and were swayed by hands-on experience over marketing. Hell, there was NO marketing for this thing in 2008.



A TGP tube amp diehard is NOT going to give up his amp for a $500 box. But he might give it up for a 2K box.

That's all that happened.

The rest of the world, the 99.9% of everyone else was already happy, gigging and recording with their GT or POD.

I dont feel that fractal raised the bar. They raised the price tag.


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## Cynicanal (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> A TGP tube amp diehard is NOT going to give up his amp for a $500 box. But he might give it up for a 2K box.


THIS.

What people are failing to understand about TGP is that gear there is judged solely by how much it costs. They'll gladly get rid of their Wizard that doesn't sound as good as a standard Marshall but is "better" because it costs twice as much when Friedman puts out a new amp that also doesn't sound as good as a regular Marshall but costs three times as much. All you have to do to sell to the TGP crowd is make your box more expensive than one of the boxes they already have, whatever is inside of it is irrelevant.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> The rest of the world, the 99.9% of everyone else was already happy, gigging and recording with their GT or POD.



That's some pretty flawed logic.

That's like saying everyone was happy driving without power steering, or having surgery without anesthesia, or special effects from the 1930's.

Folks loved the old modeling gear, myself included, because at the time there wasn't anything better and options for folks who didn't want to drag tons of gear around and jam at home or record quietly. 

I was skeptical as well, but after a number of years (I bought my first Axe Standard used around 2011) I gave it a shot and it found that it was a significant upgrade from what I had been using for a long time (bought my Vetta on day one in 2002).

Heck my Vetta cost more than my AxeFx.


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## narad (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> A TGP tube amp diehard is NOT going to give up his amp for a $500 box. But he might give it up for a 2K box.



There's some truth to that, but there's a lot more truth in that it was simply a better product than things out there at the time. Infinity times infinity no take backs.


----------



## technomancer (Oct 13, 2019)

Man you guys just love feeding the trolls


----------



## narad (Oct 13, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Man you guys just love feeding the trolls



I'm not allowed pets in my building. This is as close as I get.


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## Spinedriver (Oct 13, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's some pretty flawed logic.
> 
> That's like saying everyone was happy driving without power steering, or having surgery without anesthesia, or special effects from the 1930's.
> 
> ...



I've never owned an Axe myself but to be honest, back when I had a Pod XTL, the hardest part of dialing in a tone was getting the cab & mic placement 'just right'. I will say though that Fractal's move of incorporating 3rd party ir loading was nothing short of genius. 

Going back though, you _can_ get some pretty decent results with older modelers if you just bypass the cab and use some sort of ir loader. In all honesty, although the price tag for the Axe line is pretty hefty, at the end of the day, they set the bar for other companies to either asipire to or just let them have the 'high end' processors and just aim for the 'budget' consumer (ie: Zoom, Mooer, etc..).

If I had the cash, I'd absolutely love to have an Axe II or AX8 but for my purposes, a Pod or equivalent with an ir loader does a pretty bang up job.


----------



## axxessdenied (Oct 13, 2019)

When is the TubeFX coming out?


----------



## Shask (Oct 13, 2019)

axxessdenied said:


> When is the TubeFX coming out?



I had the Tubefex MANY years ago. That was a cool unit also.


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## Jeff (Oct 13, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> It's interesting to read the revisionist history of the fanboys. I'm not saying they are making stuff up, I'm sure they believe every word.
> 
> Fractal positioned itself as boutique digital with the higher price, yet the only tangible benefit was user loadable irs. The models themselves were virtually identical quality.
> 
> ...



I don’t agree with that. As much as I dig the Helix stuff, there are many things you can do from a control and switching standpoint that isn’t possible with the Helix, on the Fractal stuff. Additionally, I definitely think the effects are better on the Fractal. That’s why I got an HX Stomp this time.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

LOL, using TGP as an argument for anything other than "old guys hate backtracks" is just silly.


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## laxu (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I don’t agree with that. As much as I dig the Helix stuff, there are many things you can do from a control and switching standpoint that isn’t possible with the Helix, on the Fractal stuff. Additionally, I definitely think the effects are better on the Fractal. That’s why I got an HX Stomp this time.



Out of curiosity, what kind of switching are you talking about? I do agree that effects are better quality on Fractal (but the Helix ones are more than good enough for everything but reverbs) but at the same time I prefer the familiar "this models pedal X" format of Helix rather than the "here's a delay, do what you want with this massive pile of parameters".


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

laxu said:


> Out of curiosity, what kind of switching are you talking about? I do agree that effects are better quality on Fractal (but the Helix ones are more than good enough for everything but reverbs) but at the same time I prefer the familiar "this models pedal X" format of Helix rather than the "here's a delay, do what you want with this massive pile of parameters".



I’m not a fractal owner, so this is off the top of my head from what I read in the manual; but the blocks are a lot more flexible in that you can have two completely different parameter settings for each block, and change them per scene. The buttons can switch between scenes or presets.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I’m not a fractal owner, so this is off the top of my head from what I read in the manual; but the blocks are a lot more flexible in that you can have two completely different parameter settings for each block, and change them per scene. The buttons can switch between scenes or presets.


You can do this basic functionality "snapshots" in helix. I think Fractal allows you to have two completely different FX switching out in a block, so you can get more mileage out of a preset, verses copying it to a new location and changing your delay model instead of just the parameters, and I think the III anyways can load a shitload more blocks into a preset in general, but at the end of the day you're limited by what your switching system is capable of anyways.


----------



## sharedEQ (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I don’t agree with that. As much as I dig the Helix stuff, there are many things you can do from a control and switching standpoint that isn’t possible with the Helix, on the Fractal stuff. Additionally, I definitely think the effects are better on the Fractal. That’s why I got an HX Stomp this time.



Control and switching in the GT series is more advanced than the helix. Has been for at least ten years.

GT10 had effect spillover. GT100 has instant patch switching. GT1000 has both. Etc etc. All of the hoops that fractal and line6 jump through with snapshots are because it doesnt have instantaneous patch switching.

The point is that if you completely disregard the existence of Boss products, the Fractal looks pretty good.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Control and switching in the GT series is more advanced than the helix. Has been for at least ten years.
> 
> GT10 had effect spillover. GT100 has instant patch switching. GT1000 has both. Etc etc. All of the hoops that fractal and line6 jump through with snapshots are because it doesnt have instantaneous patch switching.
> 
> The point is that if you completely disregard the existence of Boss products, the Fractal looks pretty good.


As someone who used every GT from 6-100 at some point, unless the 1000 is MILES better in the tone department, Helix and Fractal shit all over it for amp tones. The ONLY reason Boss can do "instantaneous" switching with spillover is because none of their algorithms are occupying as much DSP as their competitors, and its audibly obvious. I do wish Line 6 would come up with something like the internal Wave pedal and the dynamic switching, though. But for direct-to-FOH tones, I haven't heard anything from Boss' $1k box that can't be had in a <$500 box from Zoom.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 14, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> As someone who used every GT from 6-100 at some point, unless the 1000 is MILES better in the tone department, Helix and Fractal shit all over it for amp tones. The ONLY reason Boss can do "instantaneous" switching with spillover is because none of their algorithms are occupying as much DSP as their competitors, and its audibly obvious. I do wish Line 6 would come up with something like the internal Wave pedal and the dynamic switching, though. But for direct-to-FOH tones, I haven't heard anything from Boss' $1k box that can't be had in a <$500 box from Zoom.


lol, no.



TGP folks seem to put the GT1000 on par with FX3. I've never played either but have heard demos. (GT1000 is getting serious consideration because its got a "high end" price. Sad but true.)

Katana gets raves, people who have plugged helix into katana and A/B say its not worth it, the modeling is not better. Katana is the GT100 modeling.

The point is that there was not this monolithic jump to "high end digital". It is 99% marketing/aesthetics/price tag.

Trashing Boss became a sport on tgp, amongst those who bought "high end" processors. The only way fractal could justify the price tag was by cutting down the competition. If you acknowledge that they are very close, it becomes hard to justify a pricetag that is 5x higher.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

If you have ears, and can play them side by side, there's an obvious difference. Like, very obvious.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> I've never played either


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

I've played almost all of them barring the AXEIII (and I only got to spend about 10 minutes with a GT1000), and I can say that the tonal value different between Kemper/AFX was not congruent with the price difference to Helix. The tonal value between GT-100 and Helix at the time of its release was easily worth the price difference. The Kemper actually sounded better than all of them, but I don't like it's design, layout, FX section, and the limited tweakability of individual profiles.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 14, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you have ears, and can play them side by side, there's an obvious difference. Like, very obvious.






MaxOfMetal said:


>



Fractal is mail order BS. Not going through that business model or the cult like following.

I might pick up a GT1000 some day, but when you look at the options, you realize that the reason the GT1000 is improved over the katana/GT100 is that they merged some of the flex blocks into the preamp, and it supports dual mic paths by default.

Some of the most important options that I use in every GT100 patch are non-existant in the GT1000. You can see that they were merged into the preamp block and relabeled as something else.

GT100 can be made to sound nearly identical to the 1000. Its the same damn models, just need to use dual mic paths. However, the reverbs will never match the quality of the newer processor. Nor is it 32 bit signal path.

IMO, (and Ive demoed Helix native), if you like boss modeling more than line6 "style", you may consider the GT100 more realistic. I really dont like the helix modeling.


----------



## budda (Oct 14, 2019)

We get it, you're a boss fanboy.

And you dont like that someone else does it better.

That's fine.


----------



## sakeido (Oct 14, 2019)

my 2 cents tho - the GT1000_ is_ pretty good. Not the end all be all but it sucks it typically doesn't get a fair shake 

it should have dragged the price of the full Helix down. Helix ain't worth an extra $1k over the GT1000. and if/when the FM3 ever gets here with the Ares modeling, it will absolutely blow the doors off the GT1000 for the same amount of money


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

sakeido said:


> my 2 cents tho - the GT1000_ is_ pretty good. Not the end all be all but it sucks it typically doesn't get a fair shake
> 
> it should have dragged the price of the full Helix down. Helix ain't worth an extra $1k over the GT1000. and if/when the FM3 ever gets here with the Ares modeling, it will absolutely blow the doors off the GT1000 for the same amount of money


The Helix is only ~$500 more than the GT1000? I would hope Fractal would "blow the doors off" the GT1000, as long as you're fine with the limited switching.


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Control and switching in the GT series is more advanced than the helix. Has been for at least ten years.
> 
> GT10 had effect spillover. GT100 has instant patch switching. GT1000 has both. Etc etc. All of the hoops that fractal and line6 jump through with snapshots are because it doesnt have instantaneous patch switching.
> 
> The point is that if you completely disregard the existence of Boss products, the Fractal looks pretty good.



unfortunately none of that matters, because the BOSS GT stuff doesn’t sound very good.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> You can do this basic functionality "snapshots" in helix. I think Fractal allows you to have two completely different FX switching out in a block, so you can get more mileage out of a preset, verses copying it to a new location and changing your delay model instead of just the parameters, and I think the III anyways can load a shitload more blocks into a preset in general, but at the end of the day you're limited by what your switching system is capable of anyways.



you can’t move from a Tubescreamer in one snapshot to a Klon in the next snapshot. That’s what the fractal can do, and that’s definitely useful. You can’t load two presets and toggle between them with one foot switch. You can with the Fractal (and Atomic).


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> lol, no.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Katana gets rave reviews because it’s a decent amp for _$230_. Not because it’s amazing and you don’t need to spend more. 

I spend time on TGP. The GT1000 is neither on par with the AxeIII or Helix, nor is it stated as such. I’d suggest you actually play them all, before speaking out of your nether regions. 
I like BOSS stuff too, but their amp modeling is far behind.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

sakeido said:


> my 2 cents tho - the GT1000_ is_ pretty good. Not the end all be all but it sucks it typically doesn't get a fair shake
> 
> it should have dragged the price of the full Helix down. Helix ain't worth an extra $1k over the GT1000. and if/when the FM3 ever gets here with the Ares modeling, it will absolutely blow the doors off the GT1000 for the same amount of money



The Helix is a bad buy unless you need one of the very specific features that didn't make it to the Helix LT.


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Helix is a bad buy unless you need one of the very specific features that didn't make it to the Helix LT.



yup. There’s not a better box out there for a grand. Even should the FM3 ship in our lifetime, it’s still technically a $1500 box, once you factor an FC6 controller for it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> yup. There’s not a better box out there for a grand. Even should the FM3 ship in our lifetime, it’s still technically a $1500 box, once you factor an FC6 controller for it.



Yeah, you're not really going to find a better mix of sound (both amps and effects), features, and interface for that much. 

I think the FM3 is going to be aimed at folks who would usually buy a preamp pedal, vs. a larger floor board. But you're not wrong, anyone who wants to tapdance with it is going to pay a premium.


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, you're not really going to find a better mix of sound (both amps and effects), features, and interface for that much.
> 
> I think the FM3 is going to be aimed at folks who would usually buy a preamp pedal, vs. a larger floor board. But you're not wrong, anyone who wants to tapdance with it is going to pay a premium.



The FM3 apparently will have more blocks available at a time than the HX Stomp though, so given another MIDI controller, has the potential to be a one stop shop as well. Provided you don't need dual amps and all.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> The FM3 apparently will have more blocks available at a time than the HX Stomp though, so given another MIDI controller, has the potential to be a one stop shop as well. Provided you don't need dual amps and all.



You're not wrong.

I still think these mini-modelers are better as being the foundation of pedal rig instead of a cheaper all-in-one solution. 

The Fractal stuff, and I'm sure the Helix too but I haven't personally tried it, works great with outboard effects, just like a real amp/preamp. 

By the time you add the footswitch you're in the ballpark of a bigger, more capable unit.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 14, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Fractal is mail order BS. Not going through that business model or the cult like following.
> 
> I might pick up a GT1000 some day, but when you look at the options, you realize that the reason the GT1000 is improved over the katana/GT100 is that they merged some of the flex blocks into the preamp, and it supports dual mic paths by default.
> 
> ...




so you've never actually played any of this shit.

checks out.


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## laxu (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I’m not a fractal owner, so this is off the top of my head from what I read in the manual; but the blocks are a lot more flexible in that you can have two completely different parameter settings for each block, and change them per scene. The buttons can switch between scenes or presets.



Helix allows you to assign I think up to 64 parameters that you can control within snapshots. Fractal at least on the Axe-Fx 2 was a few sets of parameters per block, didn't work on all blocks either. I don't know how much better Axe-Fx 3 is in this regard.

Also no, nobody ranks the GT1000 as good as Helix or Fractal stuff. I don't think it even comes anywhere near Helix in UI either.


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

laxu said:


> Helix allows you to assign I think up to 64 parameters that you can control within snapshots. Fractal at least on the Axe-Fx 2 was a few sets of parameters per block, didn't work on all blocks either. I don't know how much better Axe-Fx 3 is in this regard.
> 
> Also no, nobody ranks the GT1000 as good as Helix or Fractal stuff. I don't think it even comes anywhere near Helix in UI either.



well that’s certainly cool to know. I guess I’ll have to go back to the books and read the manual more carefully. That’d be very handy.


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## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're not wrong.
> 
> I still think these mini-modelers are better as being the foundation of pedal rig instead of a cheaper all-in-one solution.
> 
> ...



The way I looked at it is I’m not a big fan of the delays and reverbs of the Helix, so the Stomp+SA Collider+MC6 is still slightly smaller, while offering more of what I prefer tone-wise. 
That’s less of an issue for Fractal, as their effects are arguably better.


----------



## Vyn (Oct 14, 2019)

Is the man change with the III the UI or is there an increase in grunt as well?


----------



## dspellman (Oct 14, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> I got some really good sounds out of my AssFX II. I just couldn't hear myself going direct to PA. Literally ever, even with a monitor blasting at my head. I just couldn't get it to cut or punch like a tube amp. So I gave up and went back to head and cab..



This has been a fun thread -- I especially like the speculation over *why* the Axe price drop. I don't have anything to offer on that (other than more speculation), but there's something going on there. 

I really don't have issues with hearing myself on a stage with a lot of stage volume (I'm using a Helix). It's not the modeler's fault. If you consider that the modeler is simply a preamp, then you have to match or exceed the old-school tube amp (power amp) and the usual 4x12. I just don't want to haul around 35 lbs of tube amp power amp (the Carvin TS-100 50W/50W stereo tube power amp is actually pretty light at 25 lbs, but a Hugh Jass wood cabinet adds back 10 lbs) and nearly 100 lbs of 4x12. 

So my "amp in the room" is a 1500W power amp (yup, 1500W) and a pair of lightweight cabinets originally designed for bass that are actually neutral right up to 18Khz and down to 35Hz. Both are three-way cabinets with a low frequency driver, a 5" mids and a 1" tweeter. The LF drivers are a 12" and a 15" Eminence neo-based thing with huge Xmax. 

Back to weight: The amp weighs in at 10 lbs. Yup, 10 lbs. The 12" based cabinet weighs 34 lbs, the 15" cabinet is 43.5 lbs (actually weighed, not "guesstimated") and I rarely need both cabinets. And they're compact. The 12" based one is 16" x 20" x 16", the 15" version is 20" x 24" x 16.5" and both have a whacked corner that will allow them to be used as floor monitors where required. That's a lot easier to fit into a Honda Civic than a 30" x 30" x 14" 4x12 at nearly 100 lbs. 

"Cutting" or "Punching" like a tube amp is...uh...not an issue.


----------



## c7spheres (Oct 14, 2019)

Fractal dropped the price because they made a really good deal with thier suppliers and they are passing the savings on to everyone else. This is what it says on the Fractal webiste, the issue is whether people belive that or not. I personally think it's just something companies adjust for as needed when they need to move more product, plus Christmas is coming up too. I think the next couple years are going to be a critical time for Fractal trying to keep up with the competition. It's not unfeasable that The AxeFX units could eventually become sought after legacy units that everyone wishes were made again. Fractal could become a software only company or a licencing company that jsut gives parts of it's software product to other companies to use etc. An AxeFx could easily become a thing of the past with only inferior modellers available. The same could happen to Kemper and the Helix also. This has happened with many companies in the past where thier best products are no longer made and they become just a shell of what they once were. The price of those units usually rise, or the units get impossible to find or repair and they become units of antiquity etc. I think this will eventually happen and the Flagship models will go away with only less featured units avialable. It happens to just about every company eventually.


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## dspellman (Oct 14, 2019)

katsumura78 said:


> Figures I bought one a couple months ago. Anyone saying it’s overpriced is silly, Fractal does modeling better than anyone out there. Free firmware updates and a product that’s supported even after it’s discontinued. It curbs a lot of pedal/gear gas too. My Axe II saved me a ton of money over the years.



I'm not sure that "better" modeling means as much these days as it may have when Fractal first appeared. 
I'm not even sure that we can call it "better" but there certainly is more of a granularity available with Fractal than with most other modelers. 

That said, I think people might find wider gaps of "better" in other areas than bleeding-edge control of tube-type sound. The Helix is *far* beyond the other modelers in terms of ergonomics and editing and just practical use of modeling. I also have an Axe Ultra, and while there are gems deep in the infinite nested menus, I'm not sure they're worth the spelunking to find them. The switching and the editing (on the board itself) and the scribble strips (it sounds silly to say that) and the preselection things are all easier to use live and the computer editing is MUCH easier to use back home and there's certainly *enough* tweakability and enough quality sound, etc., and for me that's all well ahead of the rest of the field. 

The price of the Helix, while a serious chunk more than the old HD500, is right in a sweet spot below the Axe at $2400 (plus the old foot board), and if yours breaks on a job, you can walk into any one of over 200 Guitar Splinters and snag a backup, but you're going to be hung out to dry with an injured Axe. And there's a waiting list at that. If Axe feels it needs to set its price at $1999, there's probably a good reason. 

Axe is a teensy operation, and Cliff is an great engineer. Line 6 is larger, has greater distribution and it has Yamaha's buying power (for electronic bits) and it will know sooner if a really great DSP is coming down the line.


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## dspellman (Oct 14, 2019)

Jeff said:


> they certainly lit a fire, that’s for sure. Line 6 sucked before the Helix.



It was a completely different price point. I've hauled around an old Pod XT Live (floor model) and I've gotten so used to it that I can get some amazing sounds out of it. The X3 was one of the first to allow you to have two completely separate rigs (especially true if you ran it through stereo output), and honestly, once you conquered a few things, they still sound pretty good. You can get a Pod XT bean for $85 on my local Craigslist, and it sounds pretty good if you've got a decent FRFR speaker to back you up. For a long time I ran mine through the old Atomic Reactor setups (a 1x12 with 18W tube amp and a 200W closed-back speaker cab, a 2x12 with a 50W tube amp and two 200W 12" speakers in a closed-back ported speaker cabinet) and even ran three of them at a time in a wide-stage stereo setup.

The HD500 was pretty decent for most things (including the metal end of the stick), and I added a Two Notes Torpedo C.A.B. (with its proprietary cabinet IRs and some amazing tube power amp sims) for the areas where the HD500 was a bit weak, and the result competed pretty well with the high-priced spread. 

So I'm not sure that I'd say they "sucked." They essentially defined the market.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 14, 2019)

dspellman said:


> It was a completely different price point. I've hauled around an old Pod XT Live (floor model) and I've gotten so used to it that I can get some amazing sounds out of it. The X3 was one of the first to allow you to have two completely separate rigs (especially true if you ran it through stereo output), and honestly, once you conquered a few things, they still sound pretty good. You can get a Pod XT bean for $85 on my local Craigslist, and it sounds pretty good if you've got a decent FRFR speaker to back you up. For a long time I ran mine through the old Atomic Reactor setups (a 1x12 with 18W tube amp and a 200W closed-back speaker cab, a 2x12 with a 50W tube amp and two 200W 12" speakers in a closed-back ported speaker cabinet) and even ran three of them at a time in a wide-stage stereo setup.
> 
> The HD500 was pretty decent for most things (including the metal end of the stick), and I added a Two Notes Torpedo C.A.B. (with its proprietary cabinet IRs and some amazing tube power amp sims) for the areas where the HD500 was a bit weak, and the result competed pretty well with the high-priced spread.
> 
> So I'm not sure that I'd say they "sucked." They essentially defined the market.



I’ve bought every POD since the 1.0 bean. IMHO, they all sucked, to varying degrees. I had the best luck with the HD. The XT I swear sounded better than the X3.


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## dspellman (Oct 14, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Helix is a bad buy unless you need one of the very specific features that didn't make it to the Helix LT.



I'll agree to disagree with that. One of the features of the Helix is the overall construction. The LT is bent metal, the Helix is cast. It's an order of magnitude stronger for starters. There's a long list of features that didn't make it to the LT, and if you use the Helix fully for a year and then someone hands you the LT, you really notice the difference (I did, anyway). I use a bunch of that I/O on the back, including the FX loops, the additional expression pedal things, etc. It's not stuff that you might find useful if you're a guy sitting on a chair in front of a mattress, but someone working professionally and live might find it important. 

And I LIKE scribble strips.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 14, 2019)

FWIW I've heard horror stories about the LT's expression pedal breaking. Hell the dude I sold my Helix LT messaged me telling me his expression pedal broke as well.


----------



## Meeotch (Oct 14, 2019)

I've appreciated everyone's opinions so far, but can we get one thing straight? When it comes to "in the room tones", has anyone honestly converted to Axe/Helix/insert digital platform here based on pure tonal qualities?

I've spent a lot of money in the last couple years buying/selling tube amps, buying/selling cabs, looking for grail tones in the room...and I'm actually feeling REALLY good about my tones finally. It's also been an awesome learning experiences (ie swapping tubes, biasing, etc).

Granted, I haven't tried an AXE III into an Accugroove Supremo:






...But at one point I did have a Helix with a Friedman ASM12, and my tube amps > various 4x12's was a no brainer. My opinion is that for writing riffs and songs, using the best tone you can muster is going to be the most inspiring.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Oct 14, 2019)

Meeotch said:


> I've appreciated everyone's opinions so far, but can we get one thing straight? When it comes to "in the room tones", has anyone honestly converted to Axe/Helix/insert digital platform here based on pure tonal qualities?
> 
> I've spent a lot of money in the last couple years buying/selling tube amps, buying/selling cabs, looking for grail tones in the room...and I'm actually feeling REALLY good about my tones finally. It's also been an awesome learning experiences (ie swapping tubes, biasing, etc).
> 
> ...



My digital gear has pretty much killed all my "real gear" GAS. There are some amps I want to (and still do) own because I just want to, but I don't in any way find my in-the-room tone lacking.

Let's put it this way: I have multiple "legendary" amps sitting in my gear room, Marshall, Mesa, Ampeg, Peavey, etc. and still choose to go digital most of the time. I don't have to worry about volume, and there aren't setup time concerns. I just rather use my Kemper or Axe. 

Sure, sometimes I like to pretend I'm Steve Vai in front of a full stack, but that's not for tone.


----------



## Meeotch (Oct 14, 2019)

So do you run your Kemper/Axe through an FRFR speaker? Monitors? I just find it hard to believe that either of those could compare to a 4x12 in the room for some good ol' chugging.


----------



## rokket2005 (Oct 14, 2019)

^Same, out of convenience for me mostly. FWIW Fractal just dropped firmware 10 on the III adding a new feature called Gain Enhancer. I haven't really messed with it, but it's supposed to be the missing thing for in the room tones, especially for lower gain lower watt amps in the Axe. I use a Headrush FRFR112 I think it's called. It's not the same as a 2x12 or 4x12, but it beats the hell out of studio monitors.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

Meeotch said:


> So do you run your Kemper/Axe through an FRFR speaker? Monitors? I just find it hard to believe that either of those could compare to a 4x12 in the room for some good ol' chugging.



FRFR mostly. I have my Axe at my computer desk hooked up to a 2.1 setup, and in the mildly treated room (corner traps and panels on 3 of 4 walls), it sounds great. 

Stacks are fun because you're moving air. I have enough speakers to move air.


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## Avedas (Oct 15, 2019)

Whenever I play live I just plug my Helix into the FX return of the generic JCM 800 half stack that they have at literally every live venue here. I went to a studio once (where they also have the exact same amp usually) and set up my patches. Sounds awesome 100% of the time. At home I just play through my studio monitors, but having the real power amp and cab to work with is more fun.


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## laxu (Oct 15, 2019)

Vyn said:


> Is the man change with the III the UI or is there an increase in grunt as well?



Both. On the hardware front panel they half assed it and made the portion with the display better but kept the shitty navigation the same. On the software side the UI is better but still has piles and piles of menus. Frankly UI design is not Fractal's strong suit at all.

The processors are upgraded and the device has a shit ton of horsepower, to the point that it's just plain excessive for anyone who runs a typical guitar signal chain. You could run two guitars and probably bass through the rig simultaneously each with their own signal chains. The upcoming FM3 will be the better option for the average guitarist.


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## laxu (Oct 15, 2019)

Meeotch said:


> I've appreciated everyone's opinions so far, but can we get one thing straight? When it comes to "in the room tones", has anyone honestly converted to Axe/Helix/insert digital platform here based on pure tonal qualities?
> 
> I've spent a lot of money in the last couple years buying/selling tube amps, buying/selling cabs, looking for grail tones in the room...and I'm actually feeling REALLY good about my tones finally. It's also been an awesome learning experiences (ie swapping tubes, biasing, etc).
> 
> ...But at one point I did have a Helix with a Friedman ASM12, and my tube amps > various 4x12's was a no brainer. My opinion is that for writing riffs and songs, using the best tone you can muster is going to be the most inspiring.



Run your favorite modeler into a neutral poweramp (tube or solid-state) into your favorite cab. The issue is largely that cab sims sound like a miced cabinet and FRFR setups just reproduce that. It's definitely a different sound from a real guitar _cab_ in the room.


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## Vyn (Oct 15, 2019)

laxu said:


> Both. On the hardware front panel they half assed it and made the portion with the display better but kept the shitty navigation the same. On the software side the UI is better but still has piles and piles of menus. Frankly UI design is not Fractal's strong suit at all.
> 
> The processors are upgraded and the device has a shit ton of horsepower, to the point that it's just plain excessive for anyone who runs a typical guitar signal chain. You could run two guitars and probably bass through the rig simultaneously each with their own signal chains. The upcoming FM3 will be the better option for the average guitarist.



So really the main appeal of the III is mainly to live/touring musicians who want to cut down on gear to bring to a show


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## budda (Oct 15, 2019)

Vyn said:


> So really the main appeal of the III is mainly to live/touring musicians who want to cut down on gear to bring to a show



That's the appeal of any digital gear for touring musicians.


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## c7spheres (Oct 15, 2019)

I never had my hands on an Axe long enough to really know, but it seems everyone has an issue with the front panel interface. From what I've read and seen it seems pretty easy to me considering ow much stuff is in there. I'm familiar with Eventides and Kurzweils etc. and basically grew up with this stuff so maybe it's just second nature at this point for me. I could see though if there's nonsencical layouts or locations for stuff, or the dreaded secret button combination type stuff. That's when it gets annoying. One of the most messed up unit I remember was athe TC2290 beacuse you basically had a tonof key pad codes to enter. If you didn't have the manual or memorize that stuff it was basically impossible to use. I wished I tried out the effects loops for pedals with that tc2290 though, I'd like to know howgood they sound and if there's any relay pops noise etc with it. I'm interested in them again for some reason. Anyone know?


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## Sogradde (Oct 15, 2019)

Price is not the only factor people (should) take into consideration. When I had to decide between Axe and Helix, I was mainly thinking about it from a live show point of view. What happens when my unit breaks while I'm on the road? I can go into basically any shop, grab a Helix, download my presets from the cloud and be good to go. It's not that easy getting a spare Axe in europe.

On a side note: The "amp inthe room" people are weird. Have your tube amp mic'd in an isolated room and listen to your playing through headphones, it will sound every bit like those digital units. If you want an "amp in the room", you need to hook it up to a (power) amp and a cab.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I never had my hands on an Axe long enough to really know, but it seems everyone has an issue with the front panel interface. From what I've read and seen it seems pretty easy to me considering ow much stuff is in there. I'm familiar with Eventides and Kurzweils etc. and basically grew up with this stuff so maybe it's just second nature at this point for me. I could see though if there's nonsencical layouts or locations for stuff, or the dreaded secret button combination type stuff. That's when it gets annoying. One of the most messed up unit I remember was athe TC2290 beacuse you basically had a tonof key pad codes to enter. If you didn't have the manual or memorize that stuff it was basically impossible to use. I wished I tried out the effects loops for pedals with that tc2290 though, I'd like to know howgood they sound and if there's any relay pops noise etc with it. I'm interested in them again for some reason. Anyone know?



The interface on the Axe really isn't that bad. Sure, it could probably be neater looking and more intuitive, but it's definitely not the Chinese algebra that some make it out to be. 

If you know how amps and effects work, are used to using electronic devices, and can read, you'll be able to make solid tones in minutes, just as quickly as dialing in a modern, multi-channel amp with a bunch of switches.


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## mnemonic (Oct 15, 2019)

I don’t think the front panel is that hard to use to be honest. 90% of the time I use the front panel of my axe FX ii. 

Back when I got it, I decided that I was never gonna use the front panel and always use axe-edit software, but when I moved house I started keeping my computer in a different room, and i just couldn’t be bothered going to get my laptop half the time. So I started clicking around on the front panel and figuring out how it worked, when I needed to do something. Took a few months of that before I could do everything I need to do. 

If you’ve got bad vision, are used to just amps, haven’t ever used multi-effects, are not a technical person, etc. then you might find it overwhelming and hard to deal with. 

If you used rack effects back in the 80’s or 90’s, then you probably won’t have a problem since it’s much more straightforward than a lot of that old stuff, despite the huge amount of advanced parameters. 

The advanced stuff is always on other pages of whatever amp or effect block you’re in anyways, so it’s easy to ignore if you don’t need it.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

Meeotch said:


> So do you run your Kemper/Axe through an FRFR speaker? Monitors? I just find it hard to believe that either of those could compare to a 4x12 in the room for some good ol' chugging.


This is one thing that is entirely player preference. For me, I'm inspired by what SOUNDS good, not really how much air I'm moving. We pretty much write exclusively directly into our DAW when we're actually working on new stuff, and when I wanna jam at home, I couldn't run a real cab at a volume high enough to get any of that cool pants-flapping shug going on anyways. When I'm, dicking around at the rehearsal space my EV ZLXP12 hits me right between the shoulders with enough ooomph that I can feel it, but I've been working on getting stage volume down to just what is needed to be heard over the drums for the last decade. I also had the luxury (misfortune?) of growing up doing 99% of my practicing in headphones with some sort of cheap modeler, so I'm not really tied to the tangibility of an "in the room" sound to feel like I'm missing anything playing through studio monitors or FRFR. In some ways, I think relying more on having to play the guitar to get the sounds I want verses playing the amp has helped me, but sometimes I think maybe I'm missing some of the inherent phrasing and approach that comes from interacting with a loud amp. All things considered, my Helix floorboard into a provided backline cab sounds as good as any rig I ever owned prior to going digital, and when its through my FRFR rig into the PA, it sounds massive, articulate, and clear with little concern about what the room is doing or how the floor is going to effect my tone, which was a constant struggle with a 4x12 setup. Dial in a sick rehearsal tone, sounds like a folding cardboard box in a small venue with a cement floor, or a it sounds like a bass rig in a big room with a wooden stage. Fix that tone for the room, take it back to the rehearsal space and it sounds like static and farts. With FRFR on a pole behind me the difference from space to space is about 80% less than with a real cab, and I need about 2/3 the volume to be heard WELL along with drums/bass. That and I can do with the Helix FX wise what would have taken me two PT PRO XL boards full of FX to accomplish.


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## Thaeon (Oct 15, 2019)

dspellman said:


> This has been a fun thread -- I especially like the speculation over *why* the Axe price drop. I don't have anything to offer on that (other than more speculation), but there's something going on there.
> 
> I really don't have issues with hearing myself on a stage with a lot of stage volume (I'm using a Helix). It's not the modeler's fault. If you consider that the modeler is simply a preamp, then you have to match or exceed the old-school tube amp (power amp) and the usual 4x12. I just don't want to haul around 35 lbs of tube amp power amp (the Carvin TS-100 50W/50W stereo tube power amp is actually pretty light at 25 lbs, but a Hugh Jass wood cabinet adds back 10 lbs) and nearly 100 lbs of 4x12.
> 
> ...



This is why I'm running a 180 watt tube head into a ported 112. All the headroom, cut, and punch I need and my rig is still pretty small and light. Would like to add another 112 to the mix at some point just cause I like how wide it can sound when you have cabs on both sides of the stage. Might look at the Boss Waza head for that.



c7spheres said:


> Fractal dropped the price because they made a really good deal with thier suppliers and they are passing the savings on to everyone else. This is what it says on the Fractal webiste, the issue is whether people belive that or not. I personally think it's just something companies adjust for as needed when they need to move more product, plus Christmas is coming up too. I think the next couple years are going to be a critical time for Fractal trying to keep up with the competition. It's not unfeasable that The AxeFX units could eventually become sought after legacy units that everyone wishes were made again. Fractal could become a software only company or a licencing company that jsut gives parts of it's software product to other companies to use etc. An AxeFx could easily become a thing of the past with only inferior modellers available. The same could happen to Kemper and the Helix also. This has happened with many companies in the past where thier best products are no longer made and they become just a shell of what they once were. The price of those units usually rise, or the units get impossible to find or repair and they become units of antiquity etc. I think this will eventually happen and the Flagship models will go away with only less featured units avialable. It happens to just about every company eventually.



Any tech company faces this. One of my main issues is upgrades and repairability of those units. $2500 on a tube head that can literally always be repaired. Or $2500 on a soldered together circuit board that all those companies will stop manufacturing at some point in favor of the new hotness and will eventually stop supporting with software, because the hardware is too limiting. 5-10 years is about as long as you can limp something like that along. You're running a dedicated computer for your tone. Think about how long a computer lasts.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> Any tech company faces this. One of my main issues is upgrades and repairability of those units. $2500 on a tube head that can literally always be repaired. Or $2500 on a soldered together circuit board that all those companies will stop manufacturing at some point in favor of the new hotness and will eventually stop supporting with software, because the hardware is too limiting. 5-10 years is about as long as you can limp something like that along. You're running a dedicated computer for your tone. Think about how long a computer lasts.



I don't really look at music gear as "buy it for life" kinds of purchases. Heck, I think I have maybe six guitars that I've had from about a decade ago, and I was a gear whore for awhile. None of my amps have been mine for longer than maybe 7 years. 

I don't see myself sticking with my digital stuff forever, just like I doubt I'll own this phone or my laptop for another decade. 

On that same coin, plenty of old digital gear is still around. Sure, you're not going to be able replace every component like your average tube amp, but unless you fry the thing it should be fine. 

Original Axe Standards are coming up on 14 years old. An original POD XT can be nearly 20 years old. This stuff can last pretty long.


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## StevenC (Oct 15, 2019)

I've been playing a H3000SE lately and it still sounds great.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

DSP =/= computer processors


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## budda (Oct 15, 2019)

People still run commodore 64s for fun, so...


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

budda said:


> People still run commodore 64s for fun, so...


We sell 30+ year old Apple IIs that still boot up and run no problem all the time.


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## Avedas (Oct 15, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> You're running a dedicated computer for your tone. Think about how long a computer lasts.


I don't really get this point. Do your computers just stop working for some reason? Physical interfaces can break (and be repaired) but nothing I typically associate with computer wear and tear (SSD read/writes, HDD decay, battery decay) really applies to these units.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 15, 2019)

Fractal didn't really help themselves when they marketed the III as "a slight upgrade to the II on release, but keep your II because s still fine, no need to upgrade cause we want to stand by it and not piss off our easily angered and very vocal users but it will be good in the future so we are just future proofing right now". Now wether they reached a wall in terms of how good the modelling can get but 90% of what I hear about the III is people saying they are happy with their II and don't feel the need to upgrade.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

AXE FX threads are like a magnet for douchebags, whether it is on TGP or here.

The problem with TGP is that it is fundamentally a discussion about "my gear is better than your gear". Cork sniffers pontificate about the fine shades of tonality between their gear and (inferior) gear.

We see it will all kinds of gear. We know (for instance) that a Friedman is not better than a Marshall, yet Friedman amps have a legion of douchebags telling us they are better. And they are essentially Marshall copies.

Sadly, Fractal captured the same spirit and brought it into the digital realm.

My assertion is that they are much closer than the marketing would have us believe. It can be proven for anyone willing to listen.

Why is that such a dangerous concept? Whose ego does that damage? And why is that?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Fractal didn't really help themselves when they marketed the III as "a slight upgrade to the II on release, but keep your II because s still fine, no need to upgrade cause we want to stand by it and not piss off our easily angered and very vocal users but it will be good in the future so we are just future proofing right now". Now wether they reached a wall in terms of how good the modelling can get but 90% of what I hear about the III is people saying they are happy with their II and don't feel the need to upgrade.



The fact that the worst thing you can say about the III is that it's a "minor upgrade" to the previous product is absolutely amazing for something like this on its 6th iteration.



sharedEQ said:


> AXE FX threads are like a magnet for douchebags



You can say that again.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The fact that the worst thing you can say about the III is that it's a "minor upgrade" to the previous product is absolutely amazing for something like this on its 6th iteration.



The UI is now passable on the III. Its essentially a II with a better interface.

In most realities, people would be saying, Fractal "finally caught up". 

Until last year, the lowly GT100 had a far superior UI than any of the fractal products.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> The UI is now passable on the III. Its essentially a II with a better interface.
> 
> In most realities, people would be saying, Fractal "finally caught up".



I think most would say that Fractal is still behind the Helix, and maybe the Kemper if you consider that in that same class.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> The UI is now passable on the III. Its essentially a II with a better interface.
> 
> In most realities, people would be saying, Fractal "finally caught up".


Yes, essentially, right now, the software is II with a decent UI. The actual hardware has about 5X the processing power and a shitload more memory for upgrades/FX/models/etc for future firmware. They're JUST starting to develop III-specific software.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Yes, essentially, right now, the software is II with a decent UI. The actual hardware has about 5X the processing power and a shitload more memory for upgrades/FX/models/etc for future firmware. They're JUST starting to develop III-specific software.



Thats great, maybe they can port Donkey Kong so you can play between sets.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think most would say that Fractal is still behind the Helix, and maybe the Kemper if you consider that in that same class.



Yes, and that is the crux of the problem.

People need to believe that the modeling is better because the UI has been so far behind.

As soon as you concede that the modeling is virtually identical in quality, the price tag becomes really hard to justify.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> Yes, and that is the crux of the problem.
> 
> People need to believe that the modeling is better because the UI has been so far behind.
> 
> As soon as you concede that the modeling is virtually identical in quality, the price tag becomes really hard to justify.



And this is sort of where things go off the rails.

Most seem to think the Fractal models, and product overall, is better. 

Are they wrong? Who is to say. We all have different tastes and opinions. 

The friction is coming from thinking your opinion is more right. No one likes that attitude. 

I don't really care if it's all in my head (I 100% honestly don't believe it is), I think the Fractal tones are better than just about everything in the same product category (high end, non-profile modeler).


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> And this is sort of where things go off the rails.
> 
> Most seem to think the Fractal models, and product overall, is better.
> 
> ...




I'm not the one saying "mine is better than yours".

I'm the one saying they are "all pretty damn good".

Which attitude it more toxic?


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

I play a Helix because what was available from Fractal was approximately $1500 more (with a foot controller and expression pedal) and the tones weren't THAT much better. They were still better on the II XL Ultra Plus Luxury Edition or whatever it was at the time, just not what I would consider the cost-value ratio to be, but still better. I have absolutely no reason to want the Fractal modeling to be better than the Line 6, but all the time I've spend with either, shows me that it does have some edge. The Kemper sounds better than both of them, but the limited nature of profiles and the lack of flexibility in FX compared to Fractal or Helix is no go. If you haven't actually played these devices in relatively short time from each other, you'll never know.


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## technomancer (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> I'm not the one saying "mine is better than yours".
> 
> I'm the one saying they are "all pretty damn good".
> 
> Which attitude it more toxic?



No you're saying what you're using is pretty darn good and anyone using anything expensive is just stroking their ego and delusional. There's a BIG difference and that attitude is incredibly toxic. What's worse is by admitting you haven't actually played most of the stuff you're commenting on you're talking out your ass and thinking repeating yourself over and over somehow makes your point more valid.

As Per Nilsson has proven over and over you can get good tone out of just about anything with enough work in the studio. That doesn't mean everything is equivalent.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 15, 2019)

we're arguing over like 500 dollars ya'll
with someone who has admitted to having played none of these things.


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## sakeido (Oct 15, 2019)

lol it's funny to see Kemper popping up so much here.

It's got the most bizarre use case of any piece of guitar gear. I wouldn't use it like an Axe FX, as a modeler. I would dial in my real rig then profile it, so I can reduce the actual physical presence required to generate that tone from a 80 pound head, 110 pound cabinet, and a 30 pound pedalboard into a 12 pound lunchbox thingy that's the same color as Grandma's 60 year old bathtub

In a certain light, it makes perfect sense. In the same space as Axe/Helix/whatever, maybe not so much. If the price sunk down to the ~$1,300 mark it'd make a hell of a lot more sense.. but it's still selling well, so prices aren't comin down at all.



GunpointMetal said:


> The Helix is only ~$500 more than the GT1000? I would hope Fractal would "blow the doors off" the GT1000, as long as you're fine with the limited switching.



<-- AB is a province, not a state


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> we're arguing over like 500 dollars ya'll
> with someone who has admitted to having played none of these things.



If that's not the whole reason for the internet, I don't know what is.


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## Thaeon (Oct 15, 2019)

Avedas said:


> I don't really get this point. Do your computers just stop working for some reason? Physical interfaces can break (and be repaired) but nothing I typically associate with computer wear and tear (SSD read/writes, HDD decay, battery decay) really applies to these units.



Being that I've been repairing computers professionally for going on ten years, they do have those components that fail. Also, heat is the enemy of any complex electronics, particularly anything silicon based as it will break down over time with applied heat. In my profession, there is no component that will last forever. Its only a matter of time before something fails. Especially as software gets more complex and pushes the hardware closer to its limits, which causes more heat. There is also the growing complexity of software being hindered by hardware. Software is getting exponentially more complex as time goes on and hardware manufacturers have to work to keep up with this. Computer hardware fails. Period. Its not meant to last forever. Again, eventually the manufacturer of a device isn't going to stop supporting software updates for old units because maintaining that software is going to eventually not be a cost effective use of labor. There are plenty of digital synths and stuff that are still around, but unless you're looking for that 80's digital sound, you're not interested in them and resale is crap. Modelers are cool, and they make some killer sounds. I already have to spend too much money on tech just to do my job. I don't want to be doing the same thing with my music equipment.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

technomancer said:


> d.
> 
> As Per Nilsson has proven over and over you can get good tone out of just about anything with enough work in the studio. That doesn't mean everything is equivalent.



This is a big straw man argument. That the older products "take more work" to get good results.

I've watched most of the Leon Todd FXIII videos (I like his videos) and have been able to match or improve on every one of the tones he has created with his FX III. * Its clear to me that he puts alot of work into getting the tones he is trying to recreate. 

If people spent as much time with other gear as they did with the III, they would get equivalent results. The fractal user base has more skill in general and is more invested in the technology. The users have more skill and that makes it look like the gear is better.


(* I know you don't believe that. If you want to test that, send me the link to the DI stems for a track, and the best FXIII recording you were able to get, no processing, and I'll upload an equivalent or better sound from my GT and we can compare.)


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## Shask (Oct 15, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I never had my hands on an Axe long enough to really know, but it seems everyone has an issue with the front panel interface. From what I've read and seen it seems pretty easy to me considering ow much stuff is in there. I'm familiar with Eventides and Kurzweils etc. and basically grew up with this stuff so maybe it's just second nature at this point for me. I could see though if there's nonsencical layouts or locations for stuff, or the dreaded secret button combination type stuff. That's when it gets annoying. One of the most messed up unit I remember was athe TC2290 beacuse you basically had a tonof key pad codes to enter. If you didn't have the manual or memorize that stuff it was basically impossible to use. I wished I tried out the effects loops for pedals with that tc2290 though, I'd like to know howgood they sound and if there's any relay pops noise etc with it. I'm interested in them again for some reason. Anyone know?


Yeah, I agree with the above that the interface is not that bad, and people blow it totally out of proportion. Just because it is not a colorful phone touch screen with giant app buttons on it doesn't make it hard.  If you have used 90's rack units, this thing is dramatically easier to use.


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## Shask (Oct 15, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> Thing is, Fractal is no different than any other company. People can debate all day about the quality but comparing them to Zoom, Boss, etc.. is like comparing Kia or Fiat to Ferrari. At the time (and even now) the features of the Axe -Fx go so far beyond the other modellers, it really is hard to compare. Not just IR loading but they were the 1st to come up with the grid/block system where you can select pretty much any effect and put it literally anywhere in the signal chain you want. At the time even the Pod & GSP1101 only had 1 or 2 effects that you could but either before or after the amp & that was it. Along with that, the connectivity on the actual harware was insane.



TC Electronic had the matrix / grid type system on the G Force and G Major units before Fractal, but the placement wasn't as flexible.


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## technomancer (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> This is a big straw man argument. That the older products "take more work" to get good results.



I actually owned and played the Pod XT and the Ultra side by side back in the day and can say from actual hands-on experience that your statements are false. So no it's not a straw man, it's based on hands on experience unlike anything you've posted.

I've also made no comments on the Axe III or the Helix because I haven't owned them or had any hands on experience with them. Unlike you I'm not just making things up about gear I've never actually played.



technomancer said:


> No you're saying what you're using is pretty darn good and anyone using anything expensive is just stroking their ego and delusional. There's a BIG difference and that attitude is incredibly toxic. What's worse is by admitting you haven't actually played most of the stuff you're commenting on you're talking out your ass and thinking repeating yourself over and over somehow makes your point more valid.



See the above. No more time to waste on serial trolls, I'll leave that to the other guys


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## Jeff (Oct 15, 2019)

budda said:


> That's the appeal of any digital gear for touring musicians.



That and no tubes to deal with, consistent sound, etc. I love my tube amps, but there's no denying the benefits of a "dedicated computer", as some call it. 



sharedEQ said:


> As soon as you concede that the modeling is virtually identical in quality, the price tag becomes really hard to justify.





sharedEQ said:


> I'm not the one saying "mine is better than yours".



Eh.....



sharedEQ said:


> I've watched most of the Leon Todd FXIII videos (I like his videos) and have been able to match or improve on every one of the tones he has created with his FX III. * Its clear to me that he puts alot of work into getting the tones he is trying to recreate.



That's awesome! You matched a YouTube video!? How'd you do it? I've been trying to match the tone of Pete Thorn, as he sounds out of iPhone speakers, for months!


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## c7spheres (Oct 15, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> I don’t think the front panel is that hard to use to be honest. 90% of the time I use the front panel of my axe FX ii.
> 
> Back when I got it, I decided that I was never gonna use the front panel and always use axe-edit software, but when I moved house I started keeping my computer in a different room, and i just couldn’t be bothered going to get my laptop half the time. So I started clicking around on the front panel and figuring out how it worked, when I needed to do something. Took a few months of that before I could do everything I need to do.
> 
> ...



It looks like a combination of Eventide, Kurzweil and TC rack stuff all in one for the look of the interface. I'm usre it'd be easy for me to use from fthe front panel. I prefer front panel editing. I just don't like being at a computer for this stuff. I'd rather have it all be self contained. The only time I'd bust out my computer would be to do .sysex backups and stuff like that probably. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't really look at music gear as "buy it for life" kinds of purchases. Heck, I think I have maybe six guitars that I've had from about a decade ago, and I was a gear whore for awhile. None of my amps have been mine for longer than maybe 7 years.
> 
> I don't see myself sticking with my digital stuff forever, just like I doubt I'll own this phone or my laptop for another decade.
> 
> ...


 
My old Rocktron Replifex is like 22+ years old and still functions perfectly. I'm in the gear for life category though. If I like something enough to make it part of my rig it usually starys there for a long time. If I'm not into a peice of gear I can usaully tell right away and get rid of it pretty fast so reliability is important for me in that regard for sure. I'm always trying out different gear but usually get rid of it to try other stuff. I'm not a collector pof gear for different tones so much as a keep the stuff I like best kind of gear guy. I use to horde gear and found I really never used that Marshall or Peavey I had for different tones because when I had time to play I always liked my Boogie best. Same with pedals too. 



Avedas said:


> I don't really get this point. Do your computers just stop working for some reason? Physical interfaces can break (and be repaired) but nothing I typically associate with computer wear and tear (SSD read/writes, HDD decay, battery decay) really applies to these units.


 The worry for computer stuff to me really means anything that is not repairable. The problem is that if a non replaceable component goes bad you are screwed. It's a legit concern, but not as much as it is with tubes amps. I find computer stuff to be much more reliable than tube amps, but much less repaireable in the long term. \
- It's always been an elephant in the room kind of fear I think with tube amp users too. Like when tubes are no longer available it will be a terrible time in music history. One by one these tube companies are going under and the tubes get harder to find and more expensive. No longer are the great Chinese 12ax7's of the 80's and 90's made or Original Winged C's, Mullards etc. These tubes are super expensive and rare now and the current ones made aren't as reliable or sweet sounding, imo, than those old tubes. It will be a great day if a new tube manufacturer ever comes about with a new old world type tube at a good price, or even if an existing factory can do another run of them before they go under. My plan is to stockpile as many good tubes as I can get. For ex. When I got my Vht 2-50-2 they all came with the legendary Winged C El34's. At that time you could get a quad of them for about $125 for a matched quad of quality, burned in and tested tubes. Nowadays since they are no longer avialable, to find a matched quad, not burnt in will cost $300+ dollars. Buy them while you can.


----------



## Shask (Oct 15, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> It looks like a combination of Eventide, Kurzweil and TC rack stuff all in one for the look of the interface. I'm usre it'd be easy for me to use from fthe front panel. I prefer front panel editing. I just don't like being at a computer for this stuff. I'd rather have it all be self contained. The only time I'd bust out my computer would be to do .sysex backups and stuff like that probably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, to several things you said. 

Yes, I use the Axe front panel way more than Axe-Edit, mostly because I can do it faster than dragging the laptop over the playing corner. It is fast for quick edits. The main time I use Axe-Edit is for major setup, like setting up all my blocks on the grid, and the scenes and such, cause that can be a pain from scratch on the front panel. I like the fact that everything is available on the front panel. My biggest worries of these units that have computer editors, especially when there is stuff not available from the unit itself, is when the software is no longer supported. Like my Boss Katana, how will I adjust it when we are on Windows 15 and the editor died years ago? Just look at the Nord synths for an example of this. Most people that have them keep a Windows 98 computer around for them.

I have been thinking about buying an Intellifex lately  I have the Axe-FX II, and a G Major 2, but damn if I don't still want an old Rocktron unit, lol.

Yes, I have said for years is what will kill tube amps will not be general sales and interest, but the death of the tube factories. They are not environmentally safe, which is why they are not made in first world countries anymore with EPA laws. As tubes get scarce, and next to no one is making them, people will quit buying tube amps, except for the rich who can afford $500 per tube.


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## Thaeon (Oct 15, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> It looks like a combination of Eventide, Kurzweil and TC rack stuff all in one for the look of the interface. I'm usre it'd be easy for me to use from fthe front panel. I prefer front panel editing. I just don't like being at a computer for this stuff. I'd rather have it all be self contained. The only time I'd bust out my computer would be to do .sysex backups and stuff like that probably.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't think that rarity is as much of an issue as demand, inflation, and tariffs.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> (* I know you don't believe that. If you want to test that, send me the link to the DI stems for a track, and the best FXIII recording you were able to get, no processing, and I'll upload an equivalent or better sound from my GT and we can compare.)



anyone?


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## penguin_316 (Oct 15, 2019)

I’ve owned every modeler mentioned in this thread save for the Axefx3.

Boss digital stuff, sounds terrible. Even going back to 2011 when I heard my first Axefx Standard, it absolutely crushed the competition in all aspects. When I got the Axefx2 there was a brief period of “egh” sounds very close to my Axefx Standard or Ultra. Over time it became something entirely different and very realistic.

Kempers sound like plastic and miss the “feel” you get with the Axefx and it’s effects are laughable. The Helix was ok, definitely not the same quality of tone as the axefx and arguably not easier to dial in(if you use axe edit/line6 edit..both are the same concept). The helix gets a 7/10 for me. It’s no 10/10 like the fractal stuff. 

Fractal sounds the best and responds the best. You don’t have to be a fanboy to experience it, all you have to do is play one.

TLDR- This sharedEQ guy is a joke. Disregard, his ears are broken. If you haven’t heard all of these units in person you CANNOT have an opinion, the difference is clear. I guess he is that guy that’s says “this sounds good enough”.


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## budda (Oct 15, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> anyone?



So after saying fractal is all hype, you expect us to believe you wouldnt tamper with a clip someone sent you?


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> TLDR- This sharedEQ guy is a joke. Disregard, his ears are broken. If you haven’t heard all of these units in person you CANNOT have an opinion, the difference is clear. I guess he is that guy that’s says “this sounds good enough”.



The beauty of direct recording devices is that they sound the same though my monitors as they do through someone else's. They can be compared directly to each other and with recordings of analog gear.

Your ears are getting the same thing everyone else is getting, whether they are in the room playing, or listening to clips on the internet.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 15, 2019)

budda said:


> So after saying fractal is all hype, you expect us to believe you wouldnt tamper with a clip someone sent you?



Tamper with a DI guitar clip? How would tampering with it make it sound better?

I proposed this to take playing and guitar out of the equation.

DI guitar signal -> FX III -> audio output

DI guitar signal -> Boss GT -> audio output


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 15, 2019)

This is the worst guerrilla marketing that Roland/Boss has ever done.


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## StevenC (Oct 15, 2019)

@sharedEQ please tell whoever you're working for that my opinion on modellers can be bought and the price is one TD-50.


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## Mr_Marty (Oct 16, 2019)

I've bought and sold more modelers than probably anyone here. I've owned probably every other modeler ever made except that DV Mark thing. The only one I still own is the Axe-Fx III. It's simply the best and by quite a fair margin.


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## laxu (Oct 16, 2019)

Mr_Marty said:


> I've bought and sold more modelers than probably anyone here. I've owned probably every other modeler ever made except that DV Mark thing. The only one I still own is the Axe-Fx III. It's simply the best and by quite a fair margin.



I've also had a bunch, used Axe-Fx Standard and II for about 10 years together, then had a Yamaha THR100HD and now own a Helix. Tried Kemper and Axe-Fx 3 but not enough to have long term experience.


To me Fractal is best in a few categories: Sound and number of features. Best software editor.
Helix to me offers the best value for money and is by far the best user interface to operate. I never use the software editor because I don't need it.
Yamaha THR is best in pure simplicity as it operates like a regular amp for the most part. The THR100HD had its own annoyances so I hope for a successor now that the THR-II series is out for the smaller ones. Software support has been very lacking as most of the issues on the THR100HD were a firmware and software editor update away but never happened.
I don't like the Kemper concept so its workflow is not for me. I don't want to dig around for the perfect profile or profile my own amps.
You can get great results out of all of these so to me the more important part is workflow. I jumped off the Axe-Fx train because I got tired of its workflow not improving enough as 99% of improvements are to do with the quality of the modeling rather than making it more convenient to operate. When the Axe-Fx 3 was released I immediately saw that the navigation section I disliked on the II was still the same and going through videos and manual showed that it still has a ton of menus to scroll through to manage its massive pile of features. I just don't want to do that anymore and on the II I rarely touched my patches because it was a chore to do that without the software editor.

Which is the best is not just a simple question of which has the most accurate modeling but which overall works best for your uses.


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## Mr_Marty (Oct 16, 2019)

I found the Helix interface to be no better than the Axe-Fx III. The only advantage is you can access controls directly from the main screen but if an effect has a more than six controls then you're constantly paging back and forth. I also hated the joystick. Trying to rearrange effects is a lesson in frustration.

In the end tone matters most so the Axe-Fx III was the clear winner. The Helix required too much futzing to get a good sound. Flabby bass, fizzy highs, two-dimensional tone.


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## Thaeon (Oct 16, 2019)

The bottom line with this stuff is use what inspires you. I thought the AFXII was too stiff. It sounds good. But it takes a lot of work to sound real. When I sit down to play, I want to plug in and play. Screwing with the dials for hours is frustrating to me. I’d rather do that after the fact while mixing something I recorded. But that’s me. MANY albums and live shows I’ve been to have been powered by AFX, Line6, and Kemper. I couldn’t tell live in a mix. Which is what is important. They’re all incredible products. Just not for me. Of all of them, the Kemper would probably be the closest to what I’d like.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 16, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> The bottom line with this stuff is use what inspires you. I thought the AFXII was too stiff. It sounds good. But it takes a lot of work to sound real. When I sit down to play, I want to plug in and play. Screwing with the dials for hours is frustrating to me. I’d rather do that after the fact while mixing something I recorded. But that’s me. MANY albums and live shows I’ve been to have been powered by AFX, Line6, and Kemper. I couldn’t tell live in a mix. Which is what is important. They’re all incredible products. Just not for me. Of all of them, the Kemper would probably be the closest to what I’d like.


That's pretty much the main thing. Know how you work/are inspired and do that.


----------



## Jeff (Oct 16, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I’ve owned every modeler mentioned in this thread save for the Axefx3.
> 
> Boss digital stuff, sounds terrible. Even going back to 2011 when I heard my first Axefx Standard, it absolutely crushed the competition in all aspects. When I got the Axefx2 there was a brief period of “egh” sounds very close to my Axefx Standard or Ultra. Over time it became something entirely different and very realistic.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you on the Kemper, but to say the Helix isn't the same quality as an AxeII just isn't something I'd agree with anymore. The HX 2.8 firmware sounds awesome, and very much is the same level as the AxeII/AX8. The only jump I'd make from my Stomp is either a bigger Helix, an FM3, or AxeIII.


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## MASS DEFECT (Oct 16, 2019)

^Yep. I agree that the Helix on 2.8 feels just as awesome as the models in my AX8 and AXII. Line 6 point to point modeling is getting much better. The deep edit extra menu and mods are better in the ax though.


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## Avedas (Oct 16, 2019)

Helix 2.8 is a really legit patch. Great amp models and solid EQ controls, and most of the excessive parameters are safely ignorable. I wish it had better reverbs but that's probably my only gripe at the moment. I use HX Edit almost exclusively unless I'm at the studio. I will concede the joystick thing is complete trash though. Half the time when I'm trying to move between blocks I accidentally spin it and fuck up my patch. I prefer not to use the physical interface if I don't have to.


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## laxu (Oct 16, 2019)

Mr_Marty said:


> I found the Helix interface to be no better than the Axe-Fx III. The only advantage is you can access controls directly from the main screen but if an effect has a more than six controls then you're constantly paging back and forth. I also hated the joystick. Trying to rearrange effects is a lesson in frustration.
> 
> In the end tone matters most so the Axe-Fx III was the clear winner. The Helix required too much futzing to get a good sound. Flabby bass, fizzy highs, two-dimensional tone.



I like the joystick though I don't love that it's also a knob because it's easy to bump that sometimes. Rearranging fx is very easy, just hit Action button and select move. The only frustration has been that you can't move blocks between paths (processors) so you have to copy & paste instead. I don't know why Line6 doesn't just fix this as it would be easy to do by letting you move an effect to the path above/below if you push down or up one more time.

I also like the way selecting what each block does better on the Helix. The Helix cab block requires a bit more work to get a great sounds but if you want to skip that you can just use your favorite IRs and they work the same as on the Fractal units.


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## Spinedriver (Oct 16, 2019)

I don't think there's any argument that the Axe is hands down the best processor on the market today. Thing is, it's also the most expensive. So for people that _can_ afford one, it's kind of a no brainer. However, for those of us that don't have that kind of cash, it's the runners up that are the big question as to which company has decent amp sims and which ones are lacking. 

Me personally, I'm still running a Pod X3 through a Mooer Radar which is decent but the Pod is pretty dated. I was just curious if the amps on the GE200 or Hotone Ampero are any better than the X3 or would the only real worthy upgrade be to possibly a Helix Stomp (that's about the limit of what I have to spend).


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## mikah912 (Oct 16, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> I don't think there's any argument that the Axe is hands down the best processor on the market today.



Uh, yeah...there is argument. I've had KPA, AX8, Helix, Amplifire....you name it. Most of them more than once. There are just inches between them when using the same types of models through the same IR, and *miles* between the form factors and usability of each. 

THAT is where the big differences lay, and there is no objective best there. It all depends on the workflow that you personally like.


----------



## Spinedriver (Oct 16, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> Uh, yeah...there is argument. I've had KPA, AX8, Helix, Amplifire....you name it. Most of them more than once. There are just inches between them when using the same types of models through the same IR, and *miles* between the form factors and usability of each.
> 
> THAT is where the big differences lay, and there is no objective best there. It all depends on the workflow that you personally like.



Much obliged for the tip.

It's not like a _need_ something new, it's just cool to have different 'flavors' every now & again and not have to spend a fortune to get 'em.. lol ..


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## Avedas (Oct 16, 2019)

This video is Axe2 and not Axe3, but it's supposed to be the "same" patches between the 3 modelers. It's all very close.


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## penguin_316 (Oct 17, 2019)

I last had the helix in the first half of 2018, but I doubt a patch can improve the higher noise floor and harsh high end of all the amp models.
The helix was ok, like I said I used to be a big line 6 guy...but there wasn’t anything else around at the time. The quality of the effects, Amps, pedals, and signal chains of the axefx wins every time. And let’s not even talk about the chassis’s and routing options.
Like someone mentioned, the helix sounds very 2 dimensional...it’s missing a lot and it’s palpable, but many will choose to ignore it.

Just like a lunch box amp vs it’s big brother, you may not hear the differences once squashed into an audio file and compressed into a mix. In the room however you can hear how harsh most lunchbox amps are and lifeless compared to their counterparts.


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## DarthV (Oct 17, 2019)

Spinedriver said:


> I don't think there's any argument that the Axe is hands down the best processor on the market today. Thing is, it's also the most expensive. So for people that _can_ afford one, it's kind of a no brainer. However, for those of us that don't have that kind of cash, it's the runners up that are the big question as to which company has decent amp sims and which ones are lacking.
> 
> Me personally, I'm still running a Pod X3 through a Mooer Radar which is decent but the Pod is pretty dated. I was just curious if the amps on the GE200 or Hotone Ampero are any better than the X3 or would the only real worthy upgrade be to possibly a Helix Stomp (that's about the limit of what I have to spend).



Too bad the used market here in NB sucks or I'd say wait for a used Stomp to show up... good luck with that


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## Mr_Marty (Oct 17, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I last had the helix in the first half of 2018, but I doubt a patch can improve the higher noise floor and harsh high end of all the amp models.
> The helix was ok, like I said I used to be a big line 6 guy...but there wasn’t anything else around at the time. The quality of the effects, Amps, pedals, and signal chains of the axefx wins every time. And let’s not even talk about the chassis’s and routing options.
> Like someone mentioned, the helix sounds very 2 dimensional...it’s missing a lot and it’s palpable, but many will choose to ignore it.
> 
> Just like a lunch box amp vs it’s big brother, you may not hear the differences once squashed into an audio file and compressed into a mix. In the room however you can hear how harsh most lunchbox amps are and lifeless compared to their counterparts.


Yup. However I think some people just don't have the same hearing ability. I hear a huge difference between the AxeFx and other modelers. More 3-dimensional whereas other modelers sound flat and static like there's no movement to the tone. If you can't hear that then consider yourself lucky and buy the lower cost option.

To me I'd rather have that superior tone than a glitzy UI with fancy icons. Another thing that people seem to ignore is the UI on the AxeFx, while somewhat plain, has much more animation. There are meters and moving knobs and graphs that the other modelers don't have. I find that very useful when creating presets. The meter bridge on the front is invaluable.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 17, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I last had the helix in the first half of 2018, but I doubt a patch can improve the higher noise floor and harsh high end of all the amp models.
> The helix was ok, like I said I used to be a big line 6 guy...but there wasn’t anything else around at the time. The quality of the effects, Amps, pedals, and signal chains of the axefx wins every time. And let’s not even talk about the chassis’s and routing options.
> Like someone mentioned, the helix sounds very 2 dimensional...it’s missing a lot and it’s palpable, but many will choose to ignore it.
> 
> Just like a lunch box amp vs it’s big brother, you may not hear the differences once squashed into an audio file and compressed into a mix. In the room however you can hear how harsh most lunchbox amps are and lifeless compared to their counterparts.



The reason you perceive the fractal to sound better is because the reverbs and spatial effects are more lush, more expensive.

The amp models aren't any better. That said, the reverbs in (say) a 10 year old GT processor are better than most classic recorded effects from the past 50 years. 

So you've got a situation with the Fractal where the models aren't 100% credible, but the reverbs create effective spatial "in room" sounds.

To say the fractal is the best is not a "no-brainer", there are significant differences between the distortion style of fractal, line6, and boss. For instance, some fractal owners say the Helix is harsh, yet to my ears, the fractal models generally are missing high frequency content.


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## mikah912 (Oct 17, 2019)

Mr_Marty said:


> Yup. However I think some people just don't have the same hearing ability.



This just makes me chuckle. Just because you hear something differently doesn't mean you hear _better_ than other people. It's just beyond smug to imply that the only reason someone would choose a Helix over a Kemper or Axe-FX is because:


They like "fancy icons" (which makes no sense because the Helix UI is basically spartan vector graphics)
They can't hear how much better Axe-FX or Kemper is.
They're settling to be cheaper
Again, I've had 'em all. Sold, rebought and resold most of them. There are a ton of reasons why Helix remains while I've sold off the others (though I intend to grab a Fractal FM3):


I lack for nothing when it comes to amp models, and some Helix-exclusive amp models (e.g. Badonk, Cartographer, Revv Generator 120, PRS Archon) are must haves for high gain for my tastes.
The Helix ecosystem with Native essentially allowing me to have unlimited virtual Helices when I record is awesome.
Native also allows me to take and leave my hardware at a practice space or church stage while still having it at home.
Helix also integrates wonderfully with the Line 6 Variaxes which I use in cover band gigs all of the time.
Helix is the only "full" featured floor unit. AX8 doesn't have a expression pedal, headphone out or USB recording interface. Kemper Stage doesn't have a expression pedal or recording interface either.
Scribble strips.


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## budda (Oct 17, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> The reason you perceive the fractal to sound better is because the reverbs and spatial effects are more lush, more expensive.
> 
> The amp models aren't any better. That said, the reverbs in (say) a 10 year old GT processor are better than most classic recorded effects from the past 50 years.
> 
> ...



It's like you dont know lexicon or eventide existed in the 80's


----------



## StevenC (Oct 17, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> The amp models aren't any better. That said, the reverbs in (say) a 10 year old GT processor are better than most classic recorded effects from the past 50 years.


That is maybe the dumbest thing that has been said on this forum all month.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Oct 17, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> The amp models aren't any better. That said, the reverbs in (say) a 10 year old GT processor are better than most classic recorded effects from the past 50 years.



This is when I knew you were just trollin' for kicks.


----------



## sharedEQ (Oct 17, 2019)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> This is when I knew you were just trollin' for kicks.



You all have just proven how much "name" matters to you. Yes they were good for the time, but poor by today's standards.

Read this very carefully.
https://reverb.com/news/tech-behind-eventide-h3000-ultra-harmonizer


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 17, 2019)

StevenC said:


> That is maybe the dumbest thing that has been said on this forum all month.



and like 1-10 are all the same person. so it's extra impressive.



sharedEQ said:


> You all have just proven how much "name" matters to you. Yes they were good for the time, but poor by today's standards.
> 
> Read this very carefully.
> https://reverb.com/news/tech-behind-eventide-h3000-ultra-harmonizer



I'm not sure this says what you think it says. What's a technical run down have to do with how something sounds.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 17, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> You all have just proven how much "name" matters to you. Yes they were good for the time, but poor by today's standards.
> 
> Read this very carefully.
> https://reverb.com/news/tech-behind-eventide-h3000-ultra-harmonizer


Hello, have a H3000 beside me. Have played old Boss pedals. You are very wrong. If you legit think the magic of a H3000 is dependant on the processor performance you clearly haven't played one.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Oct 17, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> and like 1-10 are all the same person. so it's extra impressive.



It's like if MetalHex was really into Roland/Boss gear instead of white supremacy and conspiracy theories.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Oct 17, 2019)

People dislike the Axe-Fx and love Line6 now. When did the happen? I thought I kept up with the guitar community.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 17, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's like if MetalHex was really into Roland/Boss gear instead of white supremacy and conspiracy theories.


I don't know, MetalHex did have a GT-100. Are you sure you don't need to check IP addresses?


----------



## Thaeon (Oct 17, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's like if MetalHex was really into Roland/Boss gear instead of white supremacy and conspiracy theories.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Oct 17, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I don't know, MetalHex did have a GT-100. Are you sure you don't need to check IP addresses?



Syntax is too good.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Oct 17, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> People dislike the Axe-Fx and love Line6 now. When did the happen? I thought I kept up with the guitar community.


No, people still love Fractal, just Line 6 doesn't sound like cardboard ass anymore, so now people also love them.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Oct 17, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Line 6 doesn't sound like cardboard ass anymore



Thats good to hear! It took them long enough.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Oct 17, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Thats good to hear! It took them long enough.


Honestly, since the HD series stuff has sounded fine (as long as you're using a good IR) but the Helix/Native actually FEELS nice to play.


----------



## technomancer (Oct 17, 2019)

StevenC said:


> Hello, have a H3000 beside me. Have played old Boss pedals. You are very wrong. If you legit think the magic of a H3000 is dependant on the processor performance you clearly haven't played one.



We already established he hasn't played any of the stuff he's been commenting on except for one Boss unit that he owns.


----------



## Vyn (Oct 18, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I last had the helix in the first half of 2018, but I doubt a patch can improve the higher noise floor and harsh high end of all the amp models.
> The helix was ok, like I said I used to be a big line 6 guy...but there wasn’t anything else around at the time. The quality of the effects, Amps, pedals, and signal chains of the axefx wins every time. And let’s not even talk about the chassis’s and routing options.
> Like someone mentioned, the helix sounds very 2 dimensional...it’s missing a lot and it’s palpable, but many will choose to ignore it.
> 
> Just like a lunch box amp vs it’s big brother, you may not hear the differences once squashed into an audio file and compressed into a mix. In the room however you can hear how harsh most lunchbox amps are and lifeless compared to their counterparts.



To be honest, the only time I've even come close to telling the difference between real amps and modellers is juiced through a real 4x12 cabinet. Short cable straight into 120watts of valve just has a feel that the modellers (while they get stupid close to it) haven't quite managed to do yet.


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## penguin_316 (Oct 18, 2019)

I disagree. With a clean power amp into a nice cab the axefx sounds extremely real (or if you like, extremely non realistic and even more optimized than real life).

I want to make this clear about the helix, it is a good unit. It made me say “ok, this is good.” Meanwhile, every axefx unit from the standard to the 2+xl has made me say “That’s just unreal...” accompanied with an ear to ear grin.

I’m sorry if you haven’t had a chance to check out the difference in person. To each their own...did I also mention that my helix unit literally just failed to start sometimes?

That’s classic line 6 for you right there. From pod xt, to pod hd500, to helix rack all of them have had buggy software, updates that fail, and occasionally unreliable starts. The helix was the worst offender though by far.


----------



## mikah912 (Oct 18, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I disagree. With a clean power amp into a nice cab the axefx sounds extremely real (or if you like, extremely non realistic and even more optimized than real life).
> 
> I want to make this clear about the helix, it is a good unit. It made me say “ok, this is good.” Meanwhile, every axefx unit from the standard to the 2+xl has made me say “That’s just unreal...” accompanied with an ear to ear grin.
> 
> ...



Helix is not buggy or failure-prone. That's just FUD. And some of us have checked out the difference in person and had a completely different experience.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 18, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> Helix is not buggy or failure-prone. That's just FUD. And some of us have checked out the difference in person and had a completely different experience.



lol. The fb owners group is just a long list of 2.8 update failures.


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## mikah912 (Oct 19, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> lol. The fb owners group is just a long list of 2.8 update failures.



Hence them quickly putting out 2.81 and 2.82?


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2019)

mikah912 said:


> Hence them quickly putting out 2.81 and 2.82?



I don’t think your argument says what you think it does there buddy.


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## mnemonic (Oct 19, 2019)

With my axe FX ii I think after the Ares 1.0 update about 8 months ago it finally sounded on-par with my tube amps when compared Like-for-like (into a high wattage solidstate power amp into the same cab). 

Before then, it sounded great by itself, but when I compared directly to one of my tube amps, the tube amp always had a slightly better feel, and it took a hell of a lot less time to get a good sound. 

I get that we don’t all have the same ears though. To some, it ‘got there’ years ago, to others, it’s still not there yet.


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## c7spheres (Oct 19, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> With my axe FX ii I think after the Ares 1.0 update about 8 months ago it finally sounded on-par with my tube amps when compared Like-for-like (into a high wattage solidstate power amp into the same cab).
> 
> Before then, it sounded great by itself, but when I compared directly to one of my tube amps, the tube amp always had a slightly better feel, and it took a hell of a lot less time to get a good sound.
> 
> I get that we don’t all have the same ears though. To some, it ‘got there’ years ago, to others, it’s still not there yet.


 I'm still really wanting to try one when I get the cash. Do you find it has the dynamics and feel and breakup that tube amps have? To me the sound is basically there but I don't read much about the feel portion of it. To me even if I get the sounds I like if the feel and interaction isn't there it's a deal breaker for me. I'm really happy with my current setup but I always wanted to have magic box like this unit to reduce the size and weight etc. because I just can't move my stuff by myself.


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## mnemonic (Oct 19, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> I'm still really wanting to try one when I get the cash. Do you find it has the dynamics and feel and breakup that tube amps have? To me the sound is basically there but I don't read much about the feel portion of it. To me even if I get the sounds I like if the feel and interaction isn't there it's a deal breaker for me. I'm really happy with my current setup but I always wanted to have magic box like this unit to reduce the size and weight etc. because I just can't move my stuff by myself.



For what I play I think the dynamics are right. But I do play high gain like 90% of the time. 

I do have a patch using the fender 5E3 tweed deluxe model which I use often with my strat, it goes from clean to crunch based off dynamics, and it works fantastic for that. But I don’t have a real 5E3 or other tweed-style or clean amp to compare to. 

The thing is with a real tweed amp you need it quite loud to get a good crunch or edge of breakup clean tone, whereas with the axe FX, I can turn the model’s gain up without changing the actual volume. When the in-room volume is set low it doesn’t feel super dynamic, but when it’s up very loud, like a real amp, where digging in hard can be painful to the ears, you play with more dynamics and I don’t want for anything, really.


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## c7spheres (Oct 19, 2019)

mnemonic said:


> For what I play I think the dynamics are right. But I do play high gain like 90% of the time.
> 
> I do have a patch using the fender 5E3 tweed deluxe model which I use often with my strat, it goes from clean to crunch based off dynamics, and it works fantastic for that. But I don’t have a real 5E3 or other tweed-style or clean amp to compare to.
> 
> The thing is with a real tweed amp you need it quite loud to get a good crunch or edge of breakup clean tone, whereas with the axe FX, I can turn the model’s gain up without changing the actual volume. When the in-room volume is set low it doesn’t feel super dynamic, but when it’s up very loud, like a real amp, where digging in hard can be painful to the ears, you play with more dynamics and I don’t want for anything, really.


 Awesome! Now I'm gassing more for one on these, but I also am gassing for and Aristides too. First world problems. Decisions, Decisions.


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## Ericjutsu (Oct 19, 2019)

how would you guys say the Axe Fx iii sounds compared to Neural DSP stuff?


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## laxu (Oct 19, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I disagree. With a clean power amp into a nice cab the axefx sounds extremely real (or if you like, extremely non realistic and even more optimized than real life).
> 
> I want to make this clear about the helix, it is a good unit. It made me say “ok, this is good.” Meanwhile, every axefx unit from the standard to the 2+xl has made me say “That’s just unreal...” accompanied with an ear to ear grin.
> 
> ...



To be honest Fractal updates are full of .01, .02 updates that fix all kinds of bugs like parameters not working right, incorrect values for whatever etc. It's very normal in software development. I have had my Axe-Fx 2 not start up or crash a few times and my Helix has failed to start a few times. No big deal and not likely to happen in the middle of a gig either.

I don't agree that the Fractal stuff is night and day. I got the Helix very close to my Axe-Fx 2 to the point that I had a difficulty discerning between the two for feel or tone running through a pair of Genelec studio monitors.

It's a wonderful time to be a guitarist because there's so much really good gear out there that you can pick and mix as you please and choose what works for your uses. None of the modelers out there are truly bad anymore and we have mostly gotten rid of the "like a Fender Champ but crappier sounding" class of tube amps too.


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## sharedEQ (Oct 19, 2019)

laxu said:


> I don't agree that the Fractal stuff is night and day. I got the Helix very close to my Axe-Fx 2 to the point that I had a difficulty discerning between the two for feel or tone running through a pair of Genelec studio monitors.



But now there is an FX III that has 4x the processing power. Obviously its better than the helix!


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## budda (Oct 19, 2019)

sharedEQ said:


> But now there is an FX III that has 4x the processing power. Obviously its better than the helix!



Finally he gets it!


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Oct 19, 2019)

budda said:


> Finally he gets it!


People keep thinking its going to drop more on Black Friday but i wouldnt wait at $2k, thats an incredible price!


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> lol. The fb owners group is just a long list of 2.8 update failures.


which means that some of the handful of owners actually present on the group have had issues (99% of which were resolved by them learning to RTFM when they were doing updates). If you only ever look at official company forums or online user groups for information about a device, you'd think literally every piece of electronics made was a buggy piece of crap that was poorly designed and made out of wet paper.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

penguin_316 said:


> I disagree. With a clean power amp into a nice cab the axefx sounds extremely real (or if you like, extremely non realistic and even more optimized than real life).
> 
> I want to make this clear about the helix, it is a good unit. It made me say “ok, this is good.” Meanwhile, every axefx unit from the standard to the 2+xl has made me say “That’s just unreal...” accompanied with an ear to ear grin.
> 
> ...



An AxeFX II into a clean power amp into a Mesa 2x12 doesn't feel or sound as good as a real Mark or Recto. Neither does a Kemper or Helix. They're cool devices, but they're not there yet.

As for buggy software, 2.80 wasn't smooth for many, but I had no troubles at all, and never have before with any Line 6 stuff.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> An AxeFX II into a clean power amp into a Mesa 2x12 doesn't feel or sound as good as a real Mark or Recto. Neither does a Kemper or Helix. They're cool devices, but they're not there yet.



It depends on the power amp you're using. Not all power amps are created equally, and not all interact as expected with a guitar cab.

The "modeler -> high wattage solid state power amp -> regular guitar cab" setup is probably the worst unless you really work on the pieces and find the few pieces to really jive in that configuration.

It's much better using either a high quality, flexible tube power amp (Fryette, Marshall, Mesa, not the cheaper Peavey and Carvin units) into a well matched cab, or going the full FRFR route with a big speaker (at least a 12", but a 15" works better in the room).

Folks forget that you still have to pick combos of gear that work for the tone you're after. That might seem antithetical to using a modeler, but if you just use it for a preamp, that's all it'll do.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It depends on the power amp you're using. Not all power amps are created equally, and not all interact as expected with a guitar cab.
> 
> The "modeler -> high wattage solid state power amp -> regular guitar cab" setup is probably the worst unless you really work on the pieces and find the few pieces to really jive in that configuration.
> 
> ...


I'm always amused when people say stuff like "the AFX/Helix preamps into a class-D amp into a cab don't sound like a tube power amp into the same cab." My initial response is "No shit." If you want the sound of a tube power amp into a real cab, you have to use a real tube power amp into a real cab. (big period) If you want the sound of a complete signal chain including a microphone and a very neutral preamp into FOH, then a good modeler will do that easily. If you can't understand why those are two TOTALLY different things, then maybe just stick to an amp and cab.


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## budda (Oct 21, 2019)

This is making me think maybe the pedalbaby is the better power amp option over a quilter for what Im used to...


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 21, 2019)

My Helix into the FX loop of my 5153 sounded amazing, through headphones and computer speakers it sounds great, I've never used a Fractal it may be better if so awesome for Fractal users, Helix suits most of my needs and I like the form factor of the floor board.

Sometimes wish I had some of the models the Fractal has, but there are some on Helix that Fractal doesn't have both good units, and obviously if the FXIII was flying out of the warehouse and still having wait lists and such they wouldn't have lowered the price, but that in no way is an indictment of the new unit just speaks to the overall quality of most late model and that most of the top flight models are getting close to Boss quality.


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## laxu (Oct 21, 2019)

Dineley said:


> Sometimes wish I had some of the models the Fractal has, but there are some on Helix that Fractal doesn't have both good units, and obviously if the FXIII was flying out of the warehouse and still having wait lists and such they wouldn't have lowered the price, but that in no way is an indictment of the new unit just speaks to the overall quality of most late model and that most of the top flight models are getting close to Boss quality.



My take is that there is nothing so unique about the majority of amps that with a bit of EQ twiddling you would not be able to get those sounds out of a handful of amp sims. Real amps are different because they have more pros and cons in other areas and usually don't have the kind of EQs that would allow to drastically shape the sound.

The amount of amp sims is largely just an easy way to pad the feature list as people tend to think more = better.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It depends on the power amp you're using. Not all power amps are created equally, and not all interact as expected with a guitar cab.
> 
> The "modeler -> high wattage solid state power amp -> regular guitar cab" setup is probably the worst unless you really work on the pieces and find the few pieces to really jive in that configuration.
> 
> ...



Sure, but how much money has to be spent, before it sounds as good? FWIW, I played most of them through a Matrix GT800FX, and the Kemper through its own 600w power amp. I'm not going to buy a $1000-$2000 modeler, and then have to shove it through a tube power amp. That's largely defeating the purpose for me.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Sure, but how much money has to be spent, before it sounds as good? FWIW, I played most of them through a Matrix GT800FX, and the Kemper through its own 600w power amp. I'm not going to buy a $1000-$2000 modeler, and then have to shove it through a tube power amp. That's largely defeating the purpose for me.


If you want the feel of a tube power amp with a bunch of different preamps, thats what you have to do. IMO these devices weren't meant to be played through a real guitar cab at high-volume, they're meant to eliminate the need for that by giving you a "finished" tone to send to FOH or a full-range speaker. The option to use them as a digital preamp is just that, an option, and you still need to be aware of the rest of a signal chain that gives you the right "in the room" tone if that's how you want to use it.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you want the feel of a tube power amp with a bunch of different preamps, thats what you have to do. IMO these devices weren't meant to be played through a real guitar cab at high-volume, they're meant to eliminate the need for that by giving you a "finished" tone to send to FOH or a full-range speaker. The option to use them as a digital preamp is just that, an option, and you still need to be aware of the rest of a signal chain that gives you the right "in the room" tone if that's how you want to use it.



I guess, but at that point I'll just use my tube amps, because they still sound better to me.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I guess, but at that point I'll just use my tube amps, because they still sound better to me.


That's how I felt until I started wanting to do IEM with both of my bands. Doing it with a live cab was a PITA because I had to bring my own mic setup, or rely on the FOH/Monitor guy to do my IEM mix (which I do not recommend to ANYONE). My DI tones sound sooooo much better in the IEMs than me trying to mic up my cab in the few minutes we'd have for changeover between bands, and I also got to eliminate that really obnoxious thing where a guitar cab sounds totally different from room to room. I'm not saying its for everyone, or there's a right/wrong way to do it, but it seems like a lot of the modeler conversation on these (and most) forums seems to revolve around people trying to make it do something it's not supposed to do then being disappointed with the results then complaining that modelers don't sound as good or something. Know what you want to do, know what tools are required, and you'll have a good time.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> That's how I felt until I started wanting to do IEM with both of my bands. Doing it with a live cab was a PITA because I had to bring my own mic setup, or rely on the FOH/Monitor guy to do my IEM mix (which I do not recommend to ANYONE). My DI tones sound sooooo much better in the IEMs than me trying to mic up my cab in the few minutes we'd have for changeover between bands, and I also got to eliminate that really obnoxious thing where a guitar cab sounds totally different from room to room. I'm not saying its for everyone, or there's a right/wrong way to do it, but it seems like a lot of the modeler conversation on these (and most) forums seems to revolve around people trying to make it do something it's not supposed to do then being disappointed with the results then complaining that modelers don't sound as good or something. Know what you want to do, know what tools are required, and you'll have a good time.



Yeah I get it from that standpoint. You're kind of painted into a corner if your band is doing IEM's and/or silent stage stuff anyway. My friend runs a Helix LT, and does just that. He doesn't like it as much as a roaring tube amp and cab, but you can't deny the convenience. That being said, there are guys that my shop works with that have a racked Mesa of some sort (JP-2C, V:35, TC-50) and run that into a Torpedo Live. Obviously more weight, but they dig it. 

I'm probably going to pick up a Fryette PS-2, because A. I "need" its attenuation AND reamping functions, B. would love to use it with my Stomp, and B. can get 20% off from MF anyway.


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## budda (Oct 21, 2019)

Ive hauled a dual amp setup across a chunk of north america, I earned the break .


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Yeah I get it from that standpoint. You're kind of painted into a corner if your band is doing IEM's and/or silent stage stuff anyway. My friend runs a Helix LT, and does just that. He doesn't like it as much as a roaring tube amp and cab, but you can't deny the convenience. That being said, there are guys that my shop works with that have a racked Mesa of some sort (JP-2C, V:35, TC-50) and run that into a Torpedo Live. Obviously more weight, but they dig it.
> 
> I'm probably going to pick up a Fryette PS-2, because A. I "need" its attenuation AND reamping functions, B. would love to use it with my Stomp, and B. can get 20% off from MF anyway.


 Did something similar for awhile and the ~4% increase in "tone" definitely wasn't worth the extra 100lbs of gear. Now I have a pedalboard, a 12" powered wedge, and my guitar case(s) and what I hear/play to on stage is so much more consistent. I've been helping a bunch of friends the last few years trying to get IEM/tracks setups going and we usually spend quite a bit of time figuring out if they're comfortable with IEMs, comfortable with or without a cab on stage, etc because at the end of the day this is music and if its not fun and you're feeling it, what's the point? Always different strokes. I have one friend who LOVES recording with modelers because they sound just like his rig mic'd up in another room without the volume and tinkering, but can't stand if for live playing, just because those two different experiences for him. For a lot of guys the pants-flapping thud of a big, loud cab behind you is half of what makes it fun, and nobody should give that up.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Sure, but how much money has to be spent, before it sounds as good? FWIW, I played most of them through a Matrix GT800FX, and the Kemper through its own 600w power amp. I'm not going to buy a $1000-$2000 modeler, and then have to shove it through a tube power amp. That's largely defeating the purpose for me.



Then these probably aren't the best solution for you, and that's totally 100% okay. Not all gear is one-size-fits-all, even really flexible and expensive pieces. 

You're basically trying to use it as a preamp, which is fine, but you can't spend big bucks on only a small part of your ring and expect it to be fine. 

If you're just using it as a preamp for one or two sounds, compare it to similar hardware. Would you put a Triaxis through a budget power/speaker rig?


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Then these probably aren't the best solution for you, and that's totally 100% okay. Not all gear is one-size-fits-all, even really flexible and expensive pieces.
> 
> You're basically trying to use it as a preamp, which is fine, but you can't spend big bucks on only a small part of your ring and expect it to be fine.
> 
> If you're just using it as a preamp for one or two sounds, compare it to similar hardware. Would you put a Triaxis through a budget power/speaker rig?



I didn't know a Matrix and a Rectifier cab were budget. These things are constantly touted as "just as good as tube amps" now, online. Perhaps that should be amended to "just as good as a tube amp and cabinet, miked up and then put through the PA".


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I didn't know a Matrix and a Rectifier cab were budget. These things are constantly touted as "just as good as tube amps" now, online. Perhaps that should be amended to "just as good as a tube amp and cabinet, miked up and then put through the PA".


I mean, I guess they could make the advertising copy longer instead of just expecting people to do at least like four minutes of research or have just a teeny bit of common sense before they spend $1K plus on a piece of musical equipment, lol.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> I mean, I guess they could make the advertising copy longer instead of just expecting people to do at least like four minutes of research or have just a teeny bit of common sense before they spend $1K plus on a piece of musical equipment, lol.



I guess my point is that there are still a huge percentage of guitarists that want to put these through real guitar cabs, because they prefer the in-the-room sound. For some, it's still not there, in terms of feel and/or sound. if you're all going through FRFR/PA's anyway, then yeah there's not much point to a tube amp anymore.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I guess my point is that there are still a huge percentage of guitarists that want to put these through real guitar cabs, because they prefer the in-the-room sound. For some, it's still not there, in terms of feel and/or sound. if you're all going through FRFR/PA's anyway, then yeah there's not much point to a tube amp anymore.


 Oh for sure, and they actually SOUND really good used a preamp with a decent power amp going into a guitar cab. Where it starts to fall apart is when people are expecting their Class D amplifier to FEEL like a pushed tube amp on stage. No matter how good your modeling is, the modeler has no idea what your speaker impedance is, what cab it's hooked up to, what volume you're actually playing at, etc etc, so even when there is power amp modeling going on, its approximating a setting, which is totally different than how a real tube amplifier responds when its pushed. I use a freaking Crate Powerblock with my Helix when we play places that require we use the backline. I don't even use different patches, I just boost a little high end and cut a little low end with the global EQ at the output going to the cab, and it does the job as good as any other amp I've used, but it certainly does't have the same tangible response as my old 50W tube heads at the same volume.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Oh for sure, and they actually SOUND really good used a preamp with a decent power amp going into a guitar cab. Where it starts to fall apart is when people are expecting their Class D amplifier to FEEL like a pushed tube amp on stage. No matter how good your modeling is, the modeler has no idea what your speaker impedance is, what cab it's hooked up to, what volume you're actually playing at, etc etc, so even when there is power amp modeling going on, its approximating a setting, which is totally different than how a real tube amplifier responds when its pushed. I use a freaking Crate Powerblock with my Helix when we play places that require we use the backline. I don't even use different patches, I just boost a little high end and cut a little low end with the global EQ at the output going to the cab, and it does the job as good as any other amp I've used, but it certainly does't have the same tangible response as my old 50W tube heads at the same volume.



I'm looking forward to the day they bridge that gap.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

And I'm waiting for the day guitar players stop pretending guitar cabs are actually good amplification devices, lol. Arbitrarily-sized boxes to hold a prerequisite number of speakers of a certain size that are more dependent on the surface their resting on and the room they're projecting into than pretty much any other "professional" speaker. But yeah, at the end of the day, pick the right tool for the job you're doing and everyone will be happy.
Edit: except maybe the FOH engineer and the first three rows of the crowd.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I didn't know a Matrix and a Rectifier cab were budget. These things are constantly touted as "just as good as tube amps" now, online. Perhaps that should be amended to "just as good as a tube amp and cabinet, miked up and then put through the PA".



The Matrix stuff is about as good as you'll get for high wattage solid state stuff, but it's not a tube amp and it's definitely not the power section of a Recto or Mark.



Jeff said:


> I guess my point is that there are still a huge percentage of guitarists that want to put these through real guitar cabs, because they prefer the in-the-room sound. For some, it's still not there, in terms of feel and/or sound. if you're all going through FRFR/PA's anyway, then yeah there's not much point to a tube amp anymore.



Again, you're not going to magically get the sound and feel of a high end tube power section, even with a Matrix.

That's the part you want, so use that piece of gear. 

No one makes a suitable replacement for a tube power section in the context you're looking to use it in.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> And I'm waiting for the day guitar players stop pretending guitar cabs are actually good amplification devices, lol. Arbitrarily-sized boxes to hold a prerequisite number of speakers of a certain size that are more dependent on the surface their resting on and the room they're projecting into than pretty much any other "professional" speaker. But yeah, at the end of the day, pick the right tool for the job you're doing and everyone will be happy.
> Edit: except maybe the FOH engineer and the first three rows of the crowd.



Oh, I'm not pretending.  A good tube amp through a good cabinet sitting on the floor sounds better than anything. After all, that's what modelers are imitating anyway. Or would you rather run a modeler through an amazing professional speaker with no cab emulation?


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The Matrix stuff is about as good as you'll get for high wattage solid state stuff, but it's not a tube amp and it's definitely not the power section of a Recto or Mark.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You're still missing the point, dude. I know all this. I just wish everyone else did. 90% of modeler fanboys aren't in any way pragmatic about what they're using, and why it's good for some and not others.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> You're still missing the point, dude. I know all this. I just wish everyone else did. 90% of modeler fanboys aren't in any way pragmatic about what they're using, and why it's good for some and not others.



On that same token, most who don't jive with modelers don't really know how to run them and expect magic out of the box just because it's in a certain price bracket.

See: everyone wondering why their new $2k preamp doesn't sound great through a $200 DJ power amp they got on Craigslist.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Oh, I'm not pretending.  A good tube amp through a good cabinet sitting on the floor sounds better than anything. After all, that's what modelers are imitating anyway. Or would you rather run a modeler through an amazing professional speaker with no cab emulation?


As long as that cab emulation is made in a professional environment, then it will be good. What I wouldn't to do is try to make a cab IR of my old 4x12 in some random venue or practice space and then try to use that on every stage. I honestly can't wait until guitar modeling puts as much effort into NEW sounds as recreating old ones. I'm already doing all kinds of weird shit (crossover splits into multiple amps/cabs/no cab, 3-4 channel processing/mixing) that most people would never, ever do with a regular guitar rig, so I for one am definitely not married to any established method amplification. Tradition is the death of innovation.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> See: everyone wondering why their new $2k preamp doesn't sound great through a $200 DJ power amp they got on Craigslist.


 These are my favorite modeler inquiries: How come my AxeFX into my Behringer iNuke amplifier doesn't sound the same as when I run it into my FX return on my Marshall? How come I have to make different presets for my single coil and humbucker pickups? How come it doesn't feel the same playing out of a 10" PA speaker from Alto as it does my 2x12?


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> On that same token, most who don't jive with modelers don't really know how to run them and expect magic out of the box just because it's in a certain price bracket.
> 
> See: everyone wondering why their new $2k preamp doesn't sound great through a $200 DJ power amp they got on Craigslist.



That's why modeling is generally not a cheaper solution either. That being said, I'm looking forward to finishing my baby modeler rig with the Stomp, an MC6, then into the Fryette+Mesa cab.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> That's why modeling is generally not a cheaper solution either. That being said, I'm looking forward to finishing my baby modeler rig with the Stomp, an MC6, then into the Fryette+Mesa cab.



That really depends on what your rig looks like.

If you're rocking a 5150 with a TS9 out front into a Mesa Trad, you probably don't need a big fancy modeling rig.

Most of the professionals using them have replaced thousands of dollars and hundreds of pounds of gear from their rigs. 

Modelers with this kind of horsepower are just as silly in certain circumstances as 100watt tube full stacks are for bedroom playing in apartments.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That really depends on what your rig looks like.
> 
> If you're rocking a 5150 with a TS9 out front into a Mesa Trad, you probably don't need a big fancy modeling rig.
> 
> ...



Cost of entry just to get a simple yet good sounding, amplified modeler rig is still well north of a grand though, regardless of what you're using it for.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Are they supposed to be exponentially cheaper than tube amp rigs? I'm pretty sure I was close to $3K into my tube rig when I switched to modelers.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Cost of entry just to get a simple yet good sounding, amplified modeler rig is still well north of a grand though, regardless of what you're using it for.



So is getting a simple, yet good sounding tube half stack rig, usually. But the modeling rig has the advantage of direct recording and silent practice. 

But, we're nit picking over in the room feel that really doesn't apply to anything. 

You can run your modeler to FOH live and if you set it right, it'll sound better than anything on stage. Same goes for recording.

The only thing that traditional rigs do better, easier is loud in-the-room stuff. Which, again, is pretty much meaningless on stage and when recording.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> So is getting a simple, yet good sounding tube half stack rig, usually. But the modeling rig has the advantage of direct recording and silent practice.
> 
> But, we're nit picking over in the room feel that really doesn't apply to anything.
> 
> ...



Well, that's not necessarily true either. A tube amp will sound and feel better completely silent, when run into a good load, like the Suhr RL+IR, IMO. But you're incurring that extra weight. But you can't say a modeler will objectively sound better.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Well, that's not necessarily true either. A tube amp will sound and feel better completely silent, when run into a good load, like the Suhr RL+IR, IMO. But you're incurring that extra weight. But you can't say a modeler will objectively sound better.



That's an extra $600 for something the modeler had baked in. I thought we're trying to save money?


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Well, that's not necessarily true either. A tube amp will sound and feel better completely silent, when run into a good load, like the Suhr RL+IR, IMO. But you're incurring that extra weight. But you can't say a modeler will objectively sound better.


A tube amp into a reactive load and an IR doesn't "feel" any better than a modeler when you're using headphones/studio monitors or a PA for your monitor source, IME. That's why I don't fuck around with all that gear anymore. A tube amp into a reactive load then reamped into a small guitar cab feels marginally better than a modeler into the same power amp and cab at the same volume. And by marginally, I mean fractions of hundredths of degrees, and then only for certain things like reeeeaaallly long sustain.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> A tube amp into a reactive load and an IR doesn't "feel" any better than a modeler when you're using headphones/studio monitors or a PA for your monitor source, IME. That's why I don't fuck around with all that gear anymore. A tube amp into a reactive load then reamped into a small guitar cab feels marginally better than a modeler into the same power amp and cab at the same volume. And by marginally, I mean fractions of hundredths of degrees, and then only for certain things like reeeeaaallly long sustain.



That's been my experience as well.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's an extra $600 for something the modeler had baked in. I thought we're trying to save money?



I thought we already established we weren't saving money? 



GunpointMetal said:


> A tube amp into a reactive load and an IR doesn't "feel" any better than a modeler when you're using headphones/studio monitors or a PA for your monitor source, IME. That's why I don't fuck around with all that gear anymore. A tube amp into a reactive load then reamped into a small guitar cab feels marginally better than a modeler into the same power amp and cab at the same volume. And by marginally, I mean fractions of hundredths of degrees, and then only for certain things like reeeeaaallly long sustain.



Completely disagree, IME. Even with headphones, my amps in the Suhr sounded and felt much better. YMMV, but to me it's worth the trouble.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Completely disagree, IME. Even with headphones, my amps in the Suhr sounded and felt much better. YMMV, but to me it's worth the trouble.



When playing live or recording? What was your signal chain?

I switched to using the Axe in my rig because it sounded better then the amps I had running through load boxes and signal splitters and re-amp boxes, etc.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> When playing live or recording? What was your signal chain?
> 
> I switched to using the Axe in my rig because it sounded better then the amps I had running through load boxes and signal splitters and re-amp boxes, etc.



Either one. Live, running the Suhr with a speaker cab for onstage volume, then the Suhr to the board works great. Not really sure why that'd be an issue.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> Either one. Live, running the Suhr with a speaker cab for onstage volume, then the Suhr to the board works great. Not really sure why that'd be an issue.



I've never used a load box and IR loading gear that didn't color the sound of the amp to the point that it was a better option to use that outboard gear with the full size amps vs. the AxeFx.

It's just interesting that you're using power amp modeling and IRs.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

I'm on my second one, btw. It's really only cool if the load and IR loading is in the same box, otherwise you've got a spaghetti of cables and boxes, unless you're strictly using it at home.

*EDIT
*
Huh? I'm not using power amp modeling. Amp-->Suhr-->mixer or recording interface.

Have you used the Suhr? IMO it's really the only one that sounds good, though the BOSS is supposed to be great too.


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## cardinal (Oct 21, 2019)

It's probably because my ears are shot or just were never good in the first place...

But I've never really been able to identify the "in the room" thing that people complain about with modelers. Different amps definitely "feel" different to play. Modelers do their own thing and don't seem able to replicate the "feel" of various amps they model, but not all amps feel the same either. A JCM 800 doesn't feel like a VH4 which doesn't feel like the AxeFX sim of either. But they all sound fine and it's not like the "feel" of one is inherently worse than the other to me.

The power amp matters, but that's true of anything that's, well, amplified. Just like the speaker/FRFR system matters.

IME if you're using an AxeFX and not getting very good results from it, something has gone wrong somewhere else but the AxeFX is not the problem. That said, I prefer using a Marshall 2204 half stack, but I'm pretty sure that if someone said "cardinal, you must use either a Rectifier half-stack or the AFXIII," I would probably be happier dialing in a quick 2204 patch on the AFXIII.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

cardinal said:


> It's probably because my ears are shot or just were never good in the first place...
> 
> But I've never really been able to identify the "in the room" thing that people complain about with modelers. Different amps definitely "feel" different to play. Modelers do their own thing and don't seem able to replicate the "feel" of various amps they model, but not all amps feel the same either. A JCM 800 doesn't feel like a VH4 which doesn't feel like the AxeFX sim of either. But they all sound fine and it's not like the "feel" of one is inherently worse than the other to me.


 The "amp in the room" thing most guitarists complain about is how a guitar speaker sounds when you're off-axis and 10' away from it in a live situation and how hot power tubes change things like sustain and distortion characteristics. Most of those things are "modelable" but unless its being pumped back through a guitar speaker at the appropriate volume, it's not gonna feel the same to a player. IME at least 60% of guitar players have no idea what their rig even sounds like from any other position than where they like to be on stage or what the sound guy is actually having to do to that mic'd signal to make it palatable for the rest of the room. I couldn't help thinking about this recently seeing a band I was quite excited to see - the guitarist was running a split-rig for bass on one side and a Tight Metal pre on the other for his "guitar" tones, but he was running them into a Behringer PA amp and then into two Emperor 6x12 cabs, one was loaded with high-wattage PA drivers for the bass side and the other with some sort of V30-type guitar speaker. He's playing away, enjoying the shit out of it, with the speakers pointed at his back and stopping about mid-shoulder level. Everyone else in the venue was all the way on the other side of the stage, the way back of the room, or outside, because the "beam" from his rig sounded like giant piles of spiky ass. He had no idea.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I'm on my second one, btw. It's really only cool if the load and IR loading is in the same box, otherwise you've got a spaghetti of cables and boxes, unless you're strictly using it at home.
> 
> *EDIT
> *
> ...



I have the Suhr Reactive Load, and just run direct to my interface and use IRs there, same thing really. 

It's not power amp modeling per se, but it's definitely different than the power amp running a cab, and an IR is an IR. At least it sounds different to my ear when running.


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## cardinal (Oct 21, 2019)

Oh, and for re-amping, I don't have a lot of direct recording experience, but I do have a lot of experience with 100-watt Super Leads with and without reamping through a Power Station. It definitely changes the "feel," but the sound seems about the same. 

There's really something to having the sound just washing over and through you at extremely loud volumes. The feel is incredible and the amp becomes an instrument in itself. I doubt anything can replicate that without the volume.


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## cardinal (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> The "amp in the room" thing most guitarists complain about is how a guitar speaker sounds when you're off-axis and 10' away from it in a live situation and how hot power tubes change things like sustain and distortion characteristics. Most of those things are "modelable" but unless its being pumped back through a guitar speaker at the appropriate volume, it's not gonna feel the same to a player. IME at least 60% of guitar players have no idea what their rig even sounds like from any other position than where they like to be on stage or what the sound guy is actually having to do to that mic'd signal to make it palatable for the rest of the room. I couldn't help thinking about this recently seeing a band I was quite excited to see - the guitarist was running a split-rig for bass on one side and a Tight Metal pre on the other for his "guitar" tones, but he was running them into a Behringer PA amp and then into two Emperor 6x12 cabs, one was loaded with high-wattage PA drivers for the bass side and the other with some sort of V30-type guitar speaker. He's playing away, enjoying the shit out of it, with the speakers pointed at his back and stopping about mid-shoulder level. Everyone else in the venue was all the way on the other side of the stage, the way back of the room, or outside, because the "beam" from his rig sounded like giant piles of spiky ass. He had no idea.



One of the reasons I dislike straight 4x12s is that they are so directional. I thought I sounded awesome standing next to the cab but when I walked out front it was awful. Slant 4x12s seem to be more consistent as you move around them.

The FRFR speakers that I've used are pretty consistent as you move around them.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I have the Suhr Reactive Load, and just run direct to my interface and use IRs there, same thing really.
> 
> It's not power amp modeling per se, but it's definitely different than the power amp running a cab, and an IR is an IR. At least it sounds different to my ear when running.



I guess we're just experiencing it differently then.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 21, 2019)

cardinal said:


> One of the reasons I dislike straight 4x12s is that they are so directional. I thought I sounded awesome standing next to the cab but when I walked out front it was awful. Slant 4x12s seem to be more consistent as you move around them.
> 
> The FRFR speakers that I've used are pretty consistent as you move around them.


Honestly this is the main reason I moved to modeling and love it for live playing. My biggest beef with my old rig was having to tweak it for every single room just get the sound I wanted to hear on stage. Felt like I was losing my mind because I'd get something dialed in that sounded awesome in practice (including the 9 pedals, two noise gates, and EQ that went with it) and it would sound like balls at the show. With the modeling rig into a monitor, I might have to turn down the lows if a room is really boomy, but other than that it pretty much sound exactly the same from place to place. Guitar cabs are not well-designed speaker systems.


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## sakeido (Oct 21, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I'm on my second one, btw. It's really only cool if the load and IR loading is in the same box, otherwise you've got a spaghetti of cables and boxes, unless you're strictly using it at home.
> 
> *EDIT
> *
> ...



If you keep the cab in the signal chain, all loadboxes sound pretty great. Its when you have no cab and are using the built-in dummy load that shit starts to get weird, especially with some amp designs including common ones like the Dual Rec. Some guys really half assed the load ... lookin at you Two Notes


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## c7spheres (Oct 21, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you want the feel of a tube power amp with a bunch of different preamps, thats what you have to do. IMO these devices weren't meant to be played through a real guitar cab at high-volume, they're meant to eliminate the need for that by giving you a "finished" tone to send to FOH or a full-range speaker. The option to use them as a digital preamp is just that, an option, and you still need to be aware of the rest of a signal chain that gives you the right "in the room" tone if that's how you want to use it.


 Exactly, When they're used properly they can be excellent. When used as a preamp, totaly record chain, FOH, etc. I think the realy issue people have is lack of knowledge experience. I don't use modellers and look forward to using an Axe or the like at some point, but It's obvious when you see people complain about the sound and also descrube not using it right. Like obviously if using it as a preamp, it's now a preamp model, not a preamp and power amp model etc. I think they just don't have experience of how these things sound on thier own. For someone like me who's always had "real" gear I fully expect a record out on jack on a preamp like a triaxis or something to sound like crap. People don't understand that's the signal you actually want for that function etc. This is another thing that gives me so much hope in an Axe Fx type unit. I could jsut run it as a preamp modeler into my 2-50-2 and then as full chain model when headphone jamming without putting wear and tear on my real tubes etc. When yo ublow through a matched quad ever 3-6 months at a few hundred bucks a pop, then using an Axe like this suddenly has a greater value. Recently though, I've become happy with just the headphone output on my preamp for basic noodle jamming so now the appeal is less for a modeller. 



GunpointMetal said:


> And I'm waiting for the day guitar players stop pretending guitar cabs are actually good amplification devices, lol. Arbitrarily-sized boxes to hold a prerequisite number of speakers of a certain size that are more dependent on the surface their resting on and the room they're projecting into than pretty much any other "professional" speaker. But yeah, at the end of the day, pick the right tool for the job you're doing and everyone will be happy.
> Edit: except maybe the FOH engineer and the first three rows of the crowd.


 They do suck but they are perfect in reality. It's the sound everyone loves. : ) The fuler range systems and extended range guitars are basically going to make basses obsolete. At a certain point you have an advantage for another extended range guitar player over a bassist who never shows up to jam anyways.


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## Jeff (Oct 21, 2019)

sakeido said:


> If you keep the cab in the signal chain, all loadboxes sound pretty great. Its when you have no cab and are using the built-in dummy load that shit starts to get weird, especially with some amp designs including common ones like the Dual Rec. Some guys really half assed the load ... lookin at you Two Notes



yes I know. I’ve had a Hot Plate, Cab Clone, Rock Crusher, Captor, and two Suhr Reactive Loads.


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## c7spheres (Oct 21, 2019)

I dig what I use which is the Sequis MotherLoad Pro, the current one, the Elemental has the same giant toriod reactive load inside it too and all the features I use in my pro version. It sounds and feels as good as a real cab for sure. They handle upto a 100watts and you can get them in whatever ohm rating you want. Imo, probably the best underrated/ non-taled about thing out there.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 22, 2019)

c7spheres said:


> They do suck but they are perfect in reality. It's the sound everyone loves. : ) The fuler range systems and extended range guitars are basically going to make basses obsolete. At a certain point you have an advantage for another extended range guitar player over a bassist who never shows up to jam anyways.


I don't really think this is true. It's possible, but until extended range guitars have 35"+ scales on them, no matter how low you tune it, its not a bass. It can kinda sound like a bass, but they don't carry the fundamental note and without a biamped setup, it's muddy AF trying to get it to (trust me, I've tried, lol). But in those instances, people are already replacing bassists with standard-tuned six-string guitars, biamped rigs, and octave pedals. Maybe bassists should show up to practice more often so they don't have to fear for their jobs to the ERG players, lol.


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## Jeff (Oct 22, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> I don't really think this is true. It's possible, but until extended range guitars have 35"+ scales on them, no matter how low you tune it, its not a bass. It can kinda sound like a bass, but they don't carry the fundamental note and without a biamped setup, it's muddy AF trying to get it to (trust me, I've tried, lol). But in those instances, people are already replacing bassists with standard-tuned six-string guitars, biamped rigs, and octave pedals. Maybe bassists should show up to practice more often so they don't have to fear for their jobs to the ERG players, lol.



I've got an Ibanez SRC6, which is a "bass VI" but with bass pickups. It sounds really, really good. I wish there was an obtainable (i.e. not $4000) 8-string that could be outfitted with bass pickups, and treated as a "Bass VI+2".


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 22, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I've got an Ibanez SRC6, which is a "bass VI" but with bass pickups. It sounds really, really good. I wish there was an obtainable (i.e. not $4000) 8-string that could be outfitted with bass pickups, and treated as a "Bass VI+2".



Shouldn't be too hard to throw some EMG size Barts in an Agile 830 something or other.

Delano and SD make bass pickups in the EMG housing as well, and of course there's EMGs if that's your thing. 

I remember getting my RG2228 back in 2007 and trying all the EMG size pickups I could find, bass included.


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## GunpointMetal (Oct 22, 2019)

Pretty sure the original RG8 shipped with bass pickups in it.


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## Thaeon (Oct 22, 2019)

Jeff said:


> I've got an Ibanez SRC6, which is a "bass VI" but with bass pickups. It sounds really, really good. I wish there was an obtainable (i.e. not $4000) 8-string that could be outfitted with bass pickups, and treated as a "Bass VI+2".



Novax?


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## Jeff (Oct 22, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> Novax?



His has got to be expensive; as well it should be, since he does great work. Max's idea is likely best, though Agile makes me cringe somewhat.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 22, 2019)

Jeff said:


> His has got to be expensive; as well it should be, since he does great work. Max's idea is likely best, though Agile makes me cringe somewhat.



If Agile makes you cringe I doubt an M80M would be much better.


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## Thaeon (Oct 22, 2019)

Jeff said:


> His has got to be expensive; as well it should be, since he does great work. Max's idea is likely best, though Agile makes me cringe somewhat.



You can find used Novax guitars in the sub 3k range.


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## budda (Oct 22, 2019)

So do i have this right: if i run axe 3 into power amp with a cab, skipping IR but keeping whole amp chain, it will sound relatively like what its moddling? 

Sure hope so  especially if I do go all digital, I want it to cover the bass side too.


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## mnemonic (Oct 22, 2019)

budda said:


> So do i have this right: if i run axe 3 into power amp with a cab, skipping IR but keeping whole amp chain, it will sound relatively like what its moddling?
> 
> Sure hope so  especially if I do go all digital, I want it to cover the bass side too.



That’s how I run my axe ii, mostly just using the recto model, and it sounds more or less like my Recto, into the same cabs. Recto probably has a bit more low-low punch. 

There’s more things to set up, like the speaker page which should be set to the same (or similar) impedence curve to the cab you’re using, for best results.

I have several tube amps as well as a 2/50/2 tube power amp (it and the 2/90/2 were all the rage with the axe FX back before Matrix) and honestly I prefer using a good quality flat power amp.


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## Jeff (Oct 22, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If Agile makes you cringe I doubt an M80M would be much better.



 fair enough.


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## Elric (Oct 26, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> Oh for sure, and they actually SOUND really good used a preamp with a decent power amp going into a guitar cab. Where it starts to fall apart is when people are expecting their Class D amplifier to FEEL like a pushed tube amp on stage. No matter how good your modeling is, the modeler has no idea what your speaker impedance is, what cab it's hooked up to, what volume you're actually playing at, etc etc, so even when there is power amp modeling going on, its approximating a setting, which is totally different than how a real tube amplifier responds when its pushed.



This is a great point and FWIW, the Fractals unlike any other modelers allow you to tune the power amp speaker behavior to your individual cab and the III has crazy good power amp modeling at this point (FW10.02).

I measured my cab’s impedance and tailored the Axe’s power amp impedance curve settings to it. It makes a huge difference. It feels to me like that last bit of something needed... I have like four power amps, including solid state and tube so I can compare the cab with a tube power section and the SS+modeling and honestly, the class D SS amp is what I have kind of migrated to since doing this.

Most people do not know how to do this tuning or even understand how a tube power amp works well enough to think of tweaking it: and you are right it makes a big difference.

Anyway the Fractal stuff is AMAZING with a really good SS power amp and cab when the model power amp section is tuned to the cab. The differences start to feel negligible and the convenience of SS power is awesome. That kind of attention to detail is why FAS the king in my eyes.


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## Cynicanal (Oct 26, 2019)

At the same time, the fact that you have to do this kind of shit to make it sound right is a pretty good argument in favor of just going with the traditional tube amp + cab setup.

Most people have no idea how you'd do what you just described. Literally anyone who plays guitar can 6/6/6 a 5150.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 26, 2019)

Cynicanal said:


> At the same time, the fact that you have to do this kind of shit to make it sound right is a pretty good argument in favor of just going with the traditional tube amp + cab setup.
> 
> Most people have no idea how you'd do what you just described. Literally anyone who plays guitar can 6/6/6 a 5150.



Like I said before, modelers like this aren't meant to replace super simple, straightforward rigs like that. They can, but it's absolute overkill and that's the type of use case where getting something like the Suhr RL/IR is best.


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## budda (Oct 26, 2019)

Cynicanal said:


> At the same time, the fact that you have to do this kind of shit to make it sound right is a pretty good argument in favor of just going with the traditional tube amp + cab setup.
> 
> Most people have no idea how you'd do what you just described. Literally anyone who plays guitar can 6/6/6 a 5150.



But you can do that with an axe/helix/kemper rig too. 

People just dont.


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## Shask (Oct 26, 2019)

Elric said:


> This is a great point and FWIW, the Fractals unlike any other modelers allow you to tune the power amp speaker behavior to your individual cab and the III has crazy good power amp modeling at this point (FW10.02).
> 
> I measured my cab’s impedance and tailored the Axe’s power amp impedance curve settings to it. It makes a huge difference. It feels to me like that last bit of something needed... I have like four power amps, including solid state and tube so I can compare the cab with a tube power section and the SS+modeling and honestly, the class D SS amp is what I have kind of migrated to since doing this.
> 
> ...


I am curious how you measured the impedance response. What did you do that worked so well? I know I have messed with finding the resonant frequency, but curious what you did.


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## Genome (Oct 28, 2019)

sakeido said:


> If you keep the cab in the signal chain, all loadboxes sound pretty great. Its when you have no cab and are using the built-in dummy load that shit starts to get weird, especially with some amp designs including common ones like the Dual Rec. Some guys really half assed the load ... lookin at you Two Notes



It's crazy how much of a difference the load makes. I had a Cab Clone before switching to a Suhr RL, and it was like a blanket had come off the speakers. Resistive loads are almost entirely useless IMO

Mesa Mark V -> Suhr Reactive Load -> Fractal Cab-Lab is still the best sound I've gotten without mic'ing up a cab. Modellers always seem to have a bit of excess low-end/flubbiness in the preamp compared to real amps, in my experience.

However - I still use a Fractal/Matrix/Cab setup live. I guess if you only have one sound, a modeller is overkill, but if you need plenty of effects and instant switching etc, a modeller is still incredibly convenient despite a more traditional setup.


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