# Mesa/Boogie Triple Rectifier tone problems



## Sethlab (Jun 30, 2012)

So I recently got rid of my old amp setup (Mesa/Boogie Formula Pre) in favor of a Triple Rectifier because I've heard so many great things about them. The formula lacked any punch, sounded way too compressed, and generally sounded really fuzzy. I had an Ashly powerflex at this time (solid state) so I figured getting a tube amp would be a huge step up for me, tone-wise. Well, my recto came and well, I am kind of disappointed. I dropped 1100 on the head and replaced the tubes with an all new matched set and a custom roadcase, leaving me at about 1600 for the whole deal. Before I get too far ahead of myself, let me tell you what I'm working with here.

*Guitars*
Ibanez Prestige S5470
Gibson Explorer with EMG 81/85s

*Cabs*
I have two cabs that I made myself. Both are closed-back and have metal grills (I'm starting to wonder if metal grills are a bad idea, more on that later.) One is 2x12" Eminence Screamin' Eagles, the other is a 4x10" with 2 Eminence Ramrods and 2 Eminence Copperheads. The 12s are wired 8 ohms, the 10s are 4 ohms.

*Signal Chain*
I run a Furman pedalboard with the built-in conditioner. The chain is: Input on Boss NS-2-->Send from NS-2 to Dunlop wah-->Boss OD-20-->Dunlop volume-->out to amp. The FX loop runs from the return on the NS-2--> output on NS-2 to a Boss DD-6-->into a Boss DD-3--> back into FX loop. Let me know if there is something inherently wrong here, I hooked it up according to the manuals for all of my pedals.

*The amp itself*
I have the 5U4G rectifier tubes, 6 6L6s, and the 5 12AX7s. I have it set on Silicone diode, and on the BOLD power setting. I'm using primarily the 3rd channel (RED) and have basically everything set at noon. I use either the TS or OD-1 settings on my OD-20 to boost it. My FX loop knobs are both pegged (that's what sounded the best, if it's wrong, I'd be glad to know.)

*The problem*
Considering everything is hooked up right, I've got great equipment, I'm a good player with good technique. You'd think that this thing would totally growl right? At least that's what I thought, so many bands I like have used these things, (Dream Theater and BTBAM immediately come to mind) I always considered the triple rec to be an industry standard and I liked my Formula enough to know that a triple couldn't be a bad upgrade. Well, I plug into this thing and it..well...kinda sucks. No matter what combination of tone or gain I use, this thing just lacks any character. It seriously sounds worse than my Pocket Pod. The closest thing I could get to what I liked was on the RED channel set to VINTAGE, but it still lacked a lot of punch, especially on palm mutes. I can't seem to get any usable tone out of it, everything is either really fuzzy or not driven enough, and the overall tone sounds kind of flat. I've played with the presence knob, switched from MODERN (which sounds worse than a Boss MT-2. (that's bad)) VINTAGE and RAW with seriously any combination of EQ and gain, tried both cabinets independently from one another and in combination, tried without FX loop, different settings on the OD-20, SPONGY and BOLD power, tube rectifier vs. silicone diode....Seriously everything I can think of to make this thing sound good. Speaking of sound, I'm looking for something percussive with a great deal of chug and low end, but still clear on solos without being too harsh on the highs. I don't want a scooped tone, but every single setting sounds like I'm playing in a fishbowl. For reference, think of Protest the Hero guitar tone, or something like Keith Merrow. That's what I'm going for, clarity with balls without being overly distorted and no goddamned fuzz. However, this amp doesn't seem to be able to deliver anything I want, but I feel like it should. Especially after hearing Ola's videos with his rec, it sounds fantastic! What can I do to make my amp sound good? My dad picked it out and bought it for me, I just paid a little more than half for it. I just feel real bad about selling it, I know he'd be heartbroken. Any help guys? I'd really appreciate some input.


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## Sethlab (Jun 30, 2012)

Quick Edit: My cabinets are wired as such: the 12s are in series with a 16 ohm load. The 10s are wired in series by type (The ramrods wired together and the Copperheads wired together, both by series) then wired together in parallel with an 8 ohm load. However, the manual told me to run them at 8 and 4, respectively.


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## getaway_fromme (Jun 30, 2012)

Are you boosting it with an OD pedal, drive at 0, gain at max? If not, you need to. Cures the rectifier flubbiness.


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## Sethlab (Jun 30, 2012)

as previously mentioned, I use an OD-20 for boosting. (not being rude, just pointing it out) I use either the OD-1 setting or the Tubescreamer setting with the drive, tone, and level at noon. I tried putting the drive at 0 but it lost all tightness. I don't know, I can try it out, but won't it be incredibly hot to peg the level?


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## theo (Jun 30, 2012)

The typical method of using a tube screamer or od pedal to boost is volume nearly or totally maxed, gain very close to or at zero and tone to taste. This is to push your preamp harder. 

Id try that first. Also you never once mentioned changing the eq of the amp. You have tried that yeah? If not, adjust with your ears, not your eyes.


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## Sethlab (Jun 30, 2012)

theo said:


> The typical method of using a tube screamer or od pedal to boost is volume nearly or totally maxed, gain very close to or at zero and tone to taste. This is to push your preamp harder.
> 
> Id try that first. Also you never once mentioned changing the eq of the amp. You have tried that yeah? If not, adjust with your ears, not your eyes.



Good to know on the OD settings, I'll try that out later. Sadly, my roommates are all sleeping so I'll have to wait til tomorrow. As far as the eq goes, I guess I should have stated it more explicitly, but yeah, I've messed with every knob quite a bit, but they don't really seem to do a whole lot. I've read the manual and it says that each knob has a different range in each different mode, (RAW, VINTAGE, MODERN) and I've been adjusting them accordingly, but they don't seem to have nearly as dramatic of an effect as I feel like they should. Everything still sounds really dull.


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## Shask (Jun 30, 2012)

Is it a 2-channel, 3-channel, or 3-channel multiwatt?

I would disconnect everything except the amp and cab. Bypass the loop, and just try to dial in something close. I have a 2-channel, and basic settings I like on the red channel are gain about 2 oclock, presence about 8 oclock, and treble, mids, and bass about noon. Master as high as you can stand it. This should be getting you that basic high gain Recto tone you expect to hear. Then add the OD to bring the edge and clarity.

I am not sure about your cabs. I don't even know if it is safe to run 2 different cabs with different impedances. You might try it through a different cab. I use a GFlex 212 and my amp sounds massive. Cannibal Corpse, BTBAM, DT, Metallica, Nevermore, etc... all those sounds easy...


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## Shask (Jun 30, 2012)

Also, in terms of volume, if you can talk over it, it is too quiet, and it will sound flat and fuzzy....


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## theo (Jun 30, 2012)

Volume plays a huge part of it all, I'm running a peavey 6505+ and it sounds really average till the volume hits about 3. But It's so damn loud that I only barely get it up to three even in the rehearsal studios that we practice at


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## Sethlab (Jun 30, 2012)

It's a regular 3 channel. And yeah, I've tried just the amp and cab and it's still not great. The manual has plenty of diagrams about hooking up cabs and it told me that running a 16 ohm cab and a 8 ohm cab is no problem, you just hook them up 8 and 4 ohms, respectively. Whenever I crank the individual channel master, I get really bad squealing. I checked the tubes, no dead ones, none glowing. Plus, it's a brand new set, so I don't know. I usually leave the master at about 9 o clock and then just crank the output up. It sounds better louder, but that's it. Better. Not great.


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## Floppystrings (Jul 1, 2012)

theo said:


> Volume plays a huge part of it all, I'm running a peavey 6505+ and it sounds really average till the volume hits about 3. But It's so damn loud that I only barely get it up to three even in the rehearsal studios that we practice at



THIS!

Some amps need to be cranked to sound "full" and get their character out.

My 5150 sounds best on 5.

We are definitely talking loud as shit, ears ringing, all that bad stuff, keep head as far away from cab as possible when adjusting settings. You will know you are playing at the right volume when it is slightly beyond too loud, and your ears go through that adjustment period.


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## ang3 (Jul 1, 2012)

cabs plays a big role in tone. usually rectos are used with v30 speakers, sometimes t75. these are what ola and keith use most of time on the vids


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## Edika (Jul 1, 2012)

If it's squealing bad when you increase the individual volume knobs then there might be a problem with it and might need a technician to take a look at it. What you are describing for the Triple Rec that with lower gain it sounds not ballsy enough and with higher gain it sounds fuzzy has to do with volume. If you increase the volume beyond 9'oclock in individual channels it opens up immediately. The problem is to be able to play it that loud. It is strange that when changing the EQ on the amp doesn't affect the sound much since it should. I have an Emg 81/85 guitar and it can sound very differently while changing the EQ on the amp.

Cabinet speakers as ang3 said play a big role. I don't know or haven't tried the speakers you mentioned so I have no point of comparison but the V30's are the ones paired with Rectos and 5150's mostly to give their face melting sound. 

The videos you heat form Ola, Keith and the bands you like are finished mixes, with bass drums, mixing and mastering. There you listen to the potential of an amp and not the amp by itself. You can't reproduce the sound you listen to an album while playing live and even if you do so it is not sure it would work in a band setting.


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## drgamble (Jul 1, 2012)

I'll second what everyone is saying about volume, my DR sounds thin and fizzy at low volumes but at 9 or 10 it activates the tone. I think that if you listen to most mixed guitars in isolation, it doesn't sound like you think it does. I would say it's best to adjust in a band situation where you are eqing the amp to fit in the band mix.


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## Shaman (Jul 1, 2012)

Recto's can be a bit of a pain in the arse for people who are not used to them.

First of all, they are not nearly as compressed as a lot of high gain amps like ENGL's. A Recto will sound dull and muddy if you don't pick hard enough, you REALLY need to punish the strings. I have had a lot of different players use my Recto's and it's amazing how bad the amp can sound if the player has a very soft touch. It really let's the players touch come through, both in good and in bad.

A good lead tone is not usually ideal as a rhythm tone, so I would personally use the orange channel as a lead channel and the red as the rhythm channel. Or the other way around, I'll get to that later.

When playing with low tunings, I would recommend a good boost as well. My settings are usually something like: tone 10o'clock, level: noon, gain/drive: off or max 9o'clock when using a tubescreamer type pedal. (I liked the Maxon OD-808 the most)

Next, the cabinet. Like said, Ola and a lot of the bands you mentioned use Recto's with V30 loaded cabs. I prefer the Mesa Oversize 4X12", since to me that really brings out the best from the amp.

Then, remember that the red channel on a 3channel head has a super aggressive presence pot. I have had a lot of people complaining how bad their Recto sound, and then finding out that they used the "Nevermore-Recto"-settings that they found online. Those settings are for the older two channel head which has a much "milder" presence control. Even if you have the presence at nine o'clock, it will sound very bright and even brittle (on the red channel that is) so be careful with it. I personally used the orange channel for my rhythm. It is basically identical to the red channel, but the red channel has a lot more presence.

The settings I used for my 3channel Triple were something like:
orange channel, bold, diodes
presence: noon
bass: 9o'clock (or lower)
mid: noon
treble: noon
gain: noon to 1o'clock

I have used Recto's for many years. I started with a Single Recto, then bought a 3channel Triple and my current head is a multi-watt Dual Recto, love 'em!


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## Shaman (Jul 1, 2012)

..oh and like the guys said, a lot of times the sound that really kicks ass doesn't sound all that good on it's own, but it's all about how it works with the other instruments in a band/mix.

I had an ENGL Invader which sounded great on it's own, but got drowned once I played with a band. Even with the mids cranked.


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## lemeker (Jul 1, 2012)

I would suggest spending some "quality" time with that amp alone somewhere where you can crank it a bit, because that's what you really need to do with rec's when you dial them in. It's just the way they are.

I have the same tube setup in my dual and NO problems getting a killer tone out of it (and I'm not boosted). I go for a LoG/btbam happy medium kinda tone with a little of me in there so its not exact, but you can tell they are influences. I have a little sag but I personally like that.

I have an eq (the mxr 10 band) in the loop and have the loop mix levels adjusted back a bit. I would try something like that, and I would also suggest using the output as a master volume too. 

So essentially what i did was dial it in at normal (loud) volume, and pull it back to a reasonable level with the loop adjustment, and volume slider on the eq, and use the output as my master. 

Then there's everything else is saying too......specially bout the cab choice. 

I have a 1960b cab that I got a few months back with a jcm 2000 and I think it sounds terrible through the rec, but the v30 cab i normally play it through rocks.

Hope you keep the amp, and find a tone you like. They are amazing amps!!


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## Sethlab (Jul 1, 2012)

Ok so, a quick update on what I've figured out so far. Turns out, I was running my cabs at the wrong loads. Nothing major, I wasn't pushing them beyond their rating, but I was running them separately as if I was running them together. I was running my 16 ohm cab at 8 ohms (which is what you're supposed to do with 2 cabs of different impedances) even though I was only running one cab. Make a long story short, I wasn't paying attention, have them running properly now. Tried the new OD settings and it sounds less compressed and fizzy, but not QUITE tight enough yet. However, I still haven't cranked it up yet, so we'll see how that goes. Finally, I ran my NS-2 in the front of the signal chain and took it out of the loop entirely. I now only have my delays in the loop with the NS-2 frontloaded on the pedalboard. This (for whatever reason, it makes no logical sense to me) fixed the squealing and feedback problems I was having when I cranked my masters up. The final thing remains to actually get it cranked up. Now that everything is in order, I can try my hand at EQing this beast. Before I do it though, does anyone have any input on 12s vs 10s? I'm trying to decide which ones to mic, as I'm also trying to start recording my album, which I can't do with crappy tone. Also, any tips for EQing without going insane?


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## Shask (Jul 1, 2012)

I just remembered....

The Mesa Rectos have a parallel loop. You cant do any weird "X Cross" type effect placement without modifying the amp. You also cant do 4CM with a processor unless it has a killdry feature. That is probably why that made it sound better. You were sending signals to the front of the amp, and the poweramp section of the amp at same time...


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## Shaman (Jul 1, 2012)

Umm... to be totally honest, I have my doubts about the cabinets. 10" speakers are very rarely used in guitar cabinets, and if you are going for a that "stereotypical tight metal tone" I would not recommend using 10" speakers. There is a reason 12" speakers are an industry standard.

Speakers make a huge difference, and even though I am not that familiar with Eminence speakers besides the Swamp thangs I used at one point, I would highly recommend trying out a cab with V30. Especially when tracking, they seem to be the speakers that.. well in a way "they put the guitar where it should be" frequencywise. 

You should have killer tone to begin with, even post-EQ/processing can't do miracles. And like said, don't listen to the tone of the guitar soloed, you should have a guitar tone that fits in a mix rather than a sound that is killer by itself.
And I would use 2 different tones when it comes to the recorded rhythm tone. A fatter, maybe a bit darker tone and a thinner and brighter tone. Not radically different from each other, but just to widen the stereo image a bit.


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## drgamble (Jul 1, 2012)

Whenever I tried to use the loop with 100% mix on the back, I noticed like a ghost tone and it really didn't sound good. I'm thinking about doing the serial mod. It's supposed to be an easy mod just swapping a wire.


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## bhakan (Jul 1, 2012)

I would personally stick to your 2x12 over your 4x10. In case you didn'y know, guitar amps are designed to be run with 12 inch speakers, meaning they have a ridiculous amount of high frequencies which sound like shit when run through a full range setup. A 12 inch speaker is too big to recreate these frequencies, effectively acting like a low pass filter. Since a 10 inch speaker is smaller, it can recreate some of those higher frequencies, leading to your amp sounding more fizzy than it would with 12 inches. 

Definitely try getting it loud. Recto's sound best when pushed, and being 150 watts, it is going to have to be LOUD before it starts to really sound how it should. Also, Mesa tone controls seem to react with each other in really weird ways. Don't be afraid of really odd settings, like turning the bass to 0 or something.


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## 3074326 (Jul 2, 2012)

drgamble said:


> Whenever I tried to use the loop with 100% mix on the back, I noticed like a ghost tone and it really didn't sound good. I'm thinking about doing the serial mod. It's supposed to be an easy mod just swapping a wire.



It's very easy. I'm a fucking idiot when it comes to electronics and I did it in less than five minutes. Took me longer to open the amp. I don't regret the mod at all. Didn't care for the effects loop before, but I do like it now.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 2, 2012)

Their new models have gone series loop. Those parallels are a complete pain IMO.
I'd modify 4sure if you are going to be using the loop.


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## Rook (Jul 2, 2012)

There are a couple things I noticed about what you said above that'll help.

First, having an NS2 first in any signal chain, the buffers suck, try a decent buffered (non true bypass) pedal in front and you'll notice the difference immediately. I just noticed you have a wah first which will also suck a load of goodness ou of your tone haha.

Second I don't know how great a 410 would be with a trouble but then I've not tried your 410.

Third get used to having the gain below half way, it dries the sound up an awful lot and makes its feel harder and edgier.

Are the pickups in your S stock? Between those and the EMG's neither of your pickups are particularly high on attack, which is what you want. I'd seriously consider a pickup change because rectos are really sensitive to that. Something medium to bright, high powered and ceramic will bring worlds of attack and will make more difference than most other things mentionned here.


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## Shask (Jul 2, 2012)

3074326 said:


> It's very easy. I'm a fucking idiot when it comes to electronics and I did it in less than five minutes. Took me longer to open the amp. I don't regret the mod at all. Didn't care for the effects loop before, but I do like it now.



I have been considering it for years on my 2-channel Triple also. Luckily I had other amps I could 4CM with, but I am slowly reducing the amount of gear I have, so being able to do it with the Triple will be more important soon.

Sadly, one of my worries is if I decide to sell it, the mod would be a deterrent to someone buying it...

I have read reports of still having some parallel bleed after the mod? You have had no problems? Was yours 2-channel or 3-channel?


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## Sethlab (Jul 2, 2012)

Fun111 said:


> There are a couple things I noticed about what you said above that'll help.
> 
> First, having an NS2 first in any signal chain, the buffers suck, try a decent buffered (non true bypass) pedal in front and you'll notice the difference immediately. I just noticed you have a wah first which will also suck a load of goodness ou of your tone haha.
> 
> ...



So, is the NS-2 just a crap pedal then? 

Also, where should the wah be placed in the chain so it doesn't suck tone?

As far as gain goes, it sounds completely pussy anywhere under 2 o clock, and that's with my OD settings at 0 drive 12 level. I'm just having a really hard time dialing in any unique tone on this amp. I just played with all of my knobs in extremely strange places, and it all sounds basically the same. The sweep from 0 to 10 on the treble knob is hardly noticeable. Are my problems coming from a bad signal chain? I can't think of any reason why the amp would sound so....generic.

and pickups, I have the stock pickups in my S. Before we go flying off the handle about stock Ibanez pups, I would like to point out that Luke Hoskin uses stock pups on his S, and from my experience are far better than most Ibanez stock pickups. However, I am interested in new pickups, probably a Crunchlab/Liquifire combo, but I don't know how drastically it will alter the TONE, not just the attack, which is nice because I want more attack and tighter palm mutes, but I want the tone to get less dull. 

I just want to figure this out. I just spent about 3 hours in my basement at ear-shattering levels (with ear plugs on) trying every conceivable EQ, and it still isn't getting me what I want. I'm getting so frustrated and it's taking the fun out of playing guitar for me. Plus, I just wanna get to work on my album, but I refuse to start with shitty tone.


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## drgamble (Jul 2, 2012)

Something seems really wrong here as the treble knob should be the most sensitive knob besides the gain, it actually effects the mid and bass knobs on that amp. I'm not real sure about this one.


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## eaeolian (Jul 2, 2012)

This is sounding more and more like a bad preamp tube, actually. Low gain and weak tone usually means v1 or v3 is misbehaving. If you go from 0-10 on the treble, the top end should be ripping your head off on the red channel in modern.


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## refusetofall87 (Jul 2, 2012)

My opinion of duel and triple rectifiers are that they have muddy gain, little to no mid range and not that much punch. My suggestions would be to try a new head or, if you're really into the Mesa tone, get a tube screamer to give you more gain and punch. Also make sure you have active pickups. I personally love peavey 5150's because they are loud with lots of gain and a ton of mid range, hope this helps.


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## bhakan (Jul 2, 2012)

I haven't played a recto in a while, but I would think that you have the gain too high. Good high gain tone comes from having the gain as low as possible so it isn't so fizzy and retains clarity, and then really digging in with your pick and playing hard.

EDIT: the above posts about a bad tube make sense, try getting an extra preamp tube and swapping it into each spot one at a time and seeing if it fixes it.


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## eaeolian (Jul 2, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> My opinion of duel and triple rectifiers are that they have muddy gain, little to no mid range and not that much punch. My suggestions would be to try a new head or, if you're really into the Mesa tone, get a tube screamer to give you more gain and punch. Also make sure you have active pickups. I personally love peavey 5150's because they are loud with lots of gain and a ton of mid range, hope this helps.



...and my personal experience, being a Recto user for 12+ years, is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

Moving on, let's see if we can find the real issue here...


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## Shask (Jul 2, 2012)

drgamble said:


> Something seems really wrong here as the treble knob should be the most sensitive knob besides the gain, it actually effects the mid and bass knobs on that amp. I'm not real sure about this one.



Yes, I agree. The treble knob makes it go from under a pillow to "bright" from 0 to noon. From noon to 10 it goes from bright to icepick in one ear and out the other.



eaeolian said:


> This is sounding more and more like a bad preamp tube, actually. Low gain and weak tone usually means v1 or v3 is misbehaving. If you go from 0-10 on the treble, the top end should be ripping your head off on the red channel in modern.



I agree with this also. Swap some preamp tubes and see if it comes alive...


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## Rook (Jul 2, 2012)

Sethlab said:


> So, is the NS-2 just a crap pedal then?



The function of the pedal itself is perfectly good, but the buffers (the thing that stops the weak guitar signal from just being dissipated by the internal circuitry or stops the internal circuitry from loading the pickups n making them sound odd) are less than perfect. If you have a decent buffer before the NS2, it counteracts it, because the pickups are better protected from the NS2's buffer so don't get loaded or whatever. 



Sethlab said:


> Also, where should the wah be placed in the chain so it doesn't suck tone?



After any well buffered pedal. Try plugging straight into the head with no pedals and see if it feels any better, if it does, changing the order of the pedals won't help a great deal and you should consider buying a buffer (the MXR Micro Amp being a great example) to put before all your tone sucking pedals. 



Sethlab said:


> As far as gain goes, it sounds completely pussy anywhere under 2 o clock, and that's with my OD settings at 0 drive 12 level. I'm just having a really hard time dialing in any unique tone on this amp. I just played with all of my knobs in extremely strange places, and it all sounds basically the same. The sweep from 0 to 10 on the treble knob is hardly noticeable. Are my problems coming from a bad signal chain? I can't think of any reason why the amp would sound so....generic.



I agree with whoever said this could be a tube, but it could also be a result of the various tone sucking pedals previously mentioned, or maybe your NS2 is too quiet. Again is it the same plugged directly into the amp?

Rectos are super high gain amps at all, they're moderate gain amps, they're capable of higher gain but not ideal for it really. 



Sethlab said:


> and pickups, I have the stock pickups in my S. Before we go flying off the handle about stock Ibanez pups, I would like to point out that Luke Hoskin uses stock pups on his S, and from my experience are far better than most Ibanez stock pickups. However, I am interested in new pickups, probably a Crunchlab/Liquifire combo, but I don't know how drastically it will alter the TONE, not just the attack, which is nice because I want more attack and tighter palm mutes, but I want the tone to get less dull.



I don't have a problem with Ibanez pickups at all, some are perfectly good, but a lot don't have huge amounts of attack or a particularly open sound. They can definitely be made to work, but for what you want and your setup I'd say they aren't ideal. EMG's probably aren't great for it either (again no problem with EMG's) but some of the stuff you've said you want, EMG's sorta lean the other way.

The most crucial thing for tone, by a long long long long way, is cab. Such an overlooked part of the signal chain, it can make Black and White differences to how an amp sounds. Subtle loading effects from speakers can even impact the way an amp feels.


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## mongey (Jul 2, 2012)

I've had a dual a few years now and love it

my only advice would be to plug straight into the amp,no pedals, and turn every knob on the front to 12 oclock ,volumes included and hit a chord 

If you dont at least like the sound it makes its not the amp for you. you'll fine tune from there but it is a good idea of the base tone of the amp on all channels. no piece of gear is for everyone 

It is possible there is something wrong with the amp or a bad tube . you can always take it back to the store and get it looked at .or if you boguth it olnine go to a store and try another one. see if it sounds the same 

also you said you swapped the tubes. what did you swap them with ?


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## refusetofall87 (Jul 2, 2012)

eaeolian said:


> ...and my personal experience, being a Recto user for 12+ years, is that you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Moving on, let's see if we can find the real issue here...



I know exactly what I'm talking about, I've played a duel and triple rec, it's just not my cup of tea. I found it not to have any mid range at all and the gain was real muddy with not much clarity. Could you mod a duel or triple rec to sound amazing? Sure, but given an unmoded duel or triple rec, you will not get a good, clear distortion tone. I find recitifers to be overpriced and overhyped, so for you to say I "don't know what I'm talking about" is bogus. You love these amps, I don't, end of story.


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## Sethlab (Jul 2, 2012)

mongey said:


> I've had a dual a few years now and love it
> 
> my only advice would be to plug straight into the amp,no pedals, and turn every knob on the front to 12 oclock ,volumes included and hit a chord
> 
> ...



JJ's. I bought a new set and swapped out the Mesa Tubes it came with. The problem is, I bought it on eBay and have no idea how old they were. So, I'm going to put the Mesa Tubes back in and try it out, since everyone seems to hate JJ's.


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## Shask (Jul 2, 2012)

1 or 2 JJ's is OK, but all JJ's will make the tone super dark and dull.

I would leave them in V4, and V5. Possibly V3. But, I would DEFINITELY put the Mesa tubes back in V1 and V2, and possibly V3.

That should bring back some of the high end trebly crunch....


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## eaeolian (Jul 2, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> I know exactly what I'm talking about, I've played a duel and triple rec, it's just not my cup of tea. I found it not to have any mid range at all and the gain was real muddy with not much clarity. Could you mod a duel or triple rec to sound amazing? Sure, but given an unmoded duel or triple rec, you will not get a good, clear distortion tone. I find recitifers to be overpriced and overhyped, so for you to say I "don't know what I'm talking about" is bogus. You love these amps, I don't, end of story.



...and I get a good, clear distortion tone without mods to a Triple, as do many, many other people, including a large number of touring acts at all levels. A huge number of the metal albums recorded over the last 20 years have used Duals or Triples, running a wide range of tones, and they're hardly muddy and unclear. 

For a long time here, the very first thing everyone was told upon buying a Recto was "read the manual". People who make your complaints usually don't know how the Mesa tone stack/gain/mode interactions work. You CAN make one sound like shit if you don't know what you're doing.

So, no, you don't know what you're talking about in this case. Sorry, but there's a mountain of evidence to the contrary. Rectos - right out of the box - are capable of getting a good, clear distortion tone.

Now, if you don't like this tone, well, that's why there's more than one amp company. Stating your opinion as fact, however, is disingenuous.


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## eaeolian (Jul 2, 2012)

Shask said:


> 1 or 2 JJ's is OK, but all JJ's will make the tone super dark and dull.
> 
> I would leave them in V4, and V5. Possibly V3. But, I would DEFINITELY put the Mesa tubes back in V1 and V2, and possibly V3.
> 
> That should bring back some of the high end trebly crunch....



Agreed. My preferred mix is TungSol in V1, JJ in V2, and 9th Gen (Shugang) in V3 & V4. V5 can be any quality low-noise 12AX7, and I haven't noticed that balancing makes any difference - YMMV.


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## mongey (Jul 2, 2012)

Sethlab said:


> JJ's. I bought a new set and swapped out the Mesa Tubes it came with. The problem is, I bought it on eBay and have no idea how old they were. So, I'm going to put the Mesa Tubes back in and try it out, since everyone seems to hate JJ's.


 

they come with JJ's

I have all JJ's (euro tubes custom set) in mine except for V1 where I have a tung sol . The tuing sol in v1 is an awesome cheap mod for a recto. makes a huge difference to the tone


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## Leon (Jul 2, 2012)

Who is this "everyone" I keep hearing about? I love JJ's, and always find them a welcome addition to any amp that comes through my door


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## Sethlab (Jul 2, 2012)

mongey said:


> they come with JJ's
> 
> I have all JJ's (euro tubes custom set) in mine except for V1 where I have a tung sol . The tuing sol in v1 is an awesome cheap mod for a recto. makes a huge difference to the tone



Are you sure they come with JJs? Why wouldn't Mesa ship their own tubes in their heads? They seem to be really serious about their equipment, I couldn't imagine they would use something they didn't make themselves. But hey, I don't know.


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## Sethlab (Jul 2, 2012)

eaeolian said:


> For a long time here, the very first thing everyone was told upon buying a Recto was "read the manual". People who make your complaints usually don't know how the Mesa tone stack/gain/mode interactions work. You CAN make one sound like shit if you don't know what you're doing.



I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I did read the manual, a lot. I did state it a few times. I just don't know what exactly I'm doing. It's a lot more nuanced than everything I'm used to. Just looking for suggestions on how to make this thing meet its full potential. 

If it's not directed at me, well then....I've read the manual.


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## mongey (Jul 2, 2012)

Sethlab said:


> Are you sure they come with JJs? Why wouldn't Mesa ship their own tubes in their heads? They seem to be really serious about their equipment, I couldn't imagine they would use something they didn't make themselves. But hey, I don't know.


 

Yeah. Mesa dont make tubes. they get JJ's and rebrand em .

JJ's are good quality tubes. some people find they can be dark in Mesa rectfiers especially in V1. I changed mine to a tung sol cause i was curious and it cost $15 . and I have to agree it sounds more hi fi without the JJ in V1

oh and mesa recto tone controls dont work like other amps . its a different type of cascading set up . the higher an earlier tone control is the less the knobs after it work . I believe its ,from 1st to last 

gain, treble, mid, bass

so if you run the gain super high all the knobs after it will do allot less


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## bhakan (Jul 2, 2012)

I'm not quite sure about how exactly you are running your cabs, but have you tried it without the 4x10 yet? That seems like it could definitely cause a problem. If you get a chance, try it with a v30 loaded cab. Mesas seem to be designed for v30's so they will probably sound best.


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## Sethlab (Jul 3, 2012)

I've basically ruled out the 4x10. No one around here has any V30s and my Guitar Center is kind of a piece of crap here. I don't have a whole lot of money to throw around either on them. :/


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 3, 2012)

mongey said:


> Yeah. Mesa dont make tubes. they get JJ's and rebrand em .
> 
> JJ's are good quality tubes. some people find they can be dark in Mesa rectfiers especially in V1. I changed mine to a tung sol cause i was curious and it cost $15 . and I have to agree it sounds more hi fi without the JJ in V1
> 
> ...


 
Yelp, I called them awhile back and they told me the same (all their tubes are currently comming from JJ, but haven't always came from JJ)
I run that spax7 (jj) in V1 for slightly less hum/feedback/microphonics under higher gain. They are just the ones that tested most noise resistant.


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## Sethlab (Jul 3, 2012)

is there a way to tell if my Mesa Tubes are JJs, or another company?


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## vancouvermetalguitarguy (Jul 3, 2012)

As a fellow Triple Rectifier owner I'll first cover the important points to this amp:
1) The Triple Rectifier is a VERY loose sounding amp, but netherless it is very BIG sounding. With that said, the MT2 or pocket pod you mentioned, they are very tight sounding which is the complete opposite of what a TR would be. There are ways you can make it sound tight (which sounds to me... is what you are looking for out of the TR, or what makes it "sound good" for you), then you can set the TS9 as a clean boost, such as max out level and set gain to 0 and tone adjust to your liking,

2) Equalizer. This amp unlike most other amps utilizes an EQ such that each knob affects the other knob. In other words, what you see on the knobs is probably not what you are getting unless you have everything set to Noon (neutral). You will have to refer to the manual but what basically happens is gain will affect (volume, treble, middle, bass, presence), and volume will affect (treble, middle, bass, presense) and so on... so there is a priority, when you turn gain up, all the other controls will be rolled back. The order of this is gain->volume->treble->middle->bass->presence.

3) Gain knob. I think its useful to mention this knob as its own section. The gain is the highest priority, therefore it is useful to see how this works. In channel 2 modern, with the gain max its almost like channel 3 modern, with gain 3/10. Therefore, this might be what you are experiencing as having too much gain which goes in conflict with the EQ and makes your amp sound pretty nasty. 

4) Experiment and Time. It's a HARD amp to dial in, especially for the first time. As everything mentioned above, it is easy to see why, as its very different from most other amps. Do note, the 3 channel recto is even harder to dial in than the 2 channel recto (which is what ola demo'ed). But Ola can make any amp (except for the Line 6 spider iii ) sound godlike. 

5) Tightness. As you found out, you need it on BOLD and Silicon for the maximum tightness to get even close to what you were expecting from the pod and formula pre. What you can further do is the TS9 mentioned. However, what you hear in Ola's video has a lot to do with how he set up the microphone. Rectos being mic'ed up is VERY different than playing through speakers and you sitting a meter away. That's just the nature of a recto. 

6) Presence and Treble. This also requires a seperate section as a lot of people like to roll off on the treble and use the presence as a treble control. As you know the recto has this weird fuzz going on, which can be addicting for some, but some people don't really care for it. So that's another tip to tame the sound. This makes a HUGE difference.

What I'm trying to say in all these tips are, you need time and experiemnt and further... you need to understand the recto. It was unwise of you to buy and invest in an amp for THAT MUCH money to not play it first. But now you got it, might as well spend lots of time to get a good tone 

To get you started, here's my tone for a band setting. It gives you plenty to cut-thru but still leaves you a HUGE chugging power. I have a 2 channel recto, but it'll be similar to your channel 2.
MXR GT-OD (or your TS9): Gain-ZERO,Volume-MAX,Tone-12o'clock
Channel 2 Recto (Bold/silicon): Gain- 12o'clock, Treble- 12o'clock, Mid- 2 or 3o'clock, Bass- 11o'clock, Presence- 10o'clock
Master volume- 12o'clock (adjust accordingly)


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## vancouvermetalguitarguy (Jul 3, 2012)

Sethlab said:


> So, is the NS-2 just a crap pedal then?


 
No... the NS-2 is a fine pedal.



refusetofall87 said:


> I know exactly what I'm talking about, I've played a duel and triple rec, it's just not my cup of tea. I found it not to have any mid range at all and the gain was real muddy with not much clarity.



Hey Genius, there's a middle knob. Use it.

And clearly from this post and your previous posts, you have NO idea what you are talking about. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but you should get your information correct before telling people. I feel the OP is confused as hell and your comments are not helping.



Sethlab said:


> is there a way to tell if my Mesa Tubes are JJs, or another company?



Check the labeling?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 3, 2012)

Here are the settings I used for my last band:

Tube rectification
Bass: 9 o clock or lower.
Mid: 3 o clock
Treble: 1 o clock
Gain: 1 o clock 
Presense: 1 o clock

This was on the orange channel which is WAY less fizzy than the red channel because the red channel is the oj with the presense maxed out.


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## eaeolian (Jul 3, 2012)

Sethlab said:


> I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I did read the manual, a lot. I did state it a few times. I just don't know what exactly I'm doing. It's a lot more nuanced than everything I'm used to. Just looking for suggestions on how to make this thing meet its full potential.
> 
> If it's not directed at me, well then....I've read the manual.



Nah, that was directed at the guy who said they couldn't get a good, clear distortion tone. In most cases, people who say that don't understand how the Mesa EQ stack works.


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## eaeolian (Jul 3, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> This was on the orange channel which is WAY less fizzy than the red channel because the red channel is the oj with the presense maxed out.



Not quite, but red starts at about 1:00 on the presence knob for orange, IIRC. I use the red channel for rhythm playing, but the presence is at about 8:00, i.e. almost off.


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## Shask (Jul 3, 2012)

eaeolian said:


> Not quite, but red starts at about 1:00 on the presence knob for orange, IIRC. I use the red channel for rhythm playing, but the presence is at about 8:00, i.e. almost off.


I use the Presence about 8-9 oclock on the red channel also.

I typically use the orange channel for clean. It kind of annoys me for gain sounds because there are some mid frequencies in there that sound like beating a cardboard box with a stick. Drives me nuts. This sound goes away with some volume, but that is pretty loud for home.


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## noodles (Jul 3, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> My opinion of duel and triple rectifiers are that they have muddy gain, little to no mid range and not that much punch. My suggestions would be to try a new head or, if you're really into the Mesa tone, get a tube screamer to give you more gain and punch. Also make sure you have active pickups. I personally love peavey 5150's because they are loud with lots of gain and a ton of mid range, hope this helps.



Your opinion doesn't matter for jack shit, since he wasn't asking your opinion. He was asking how to get his rig to work.


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## EOT (Jul 3, 2012)

noodles said:


> Your opinion doesn't matter for jack shit, since he wasn't asking your opinion. He was asking how to get his rig to work.


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## budda (Jul 3, 2012)

Dave and Mike: guys who can help you get your Recto where you want it .

Also, has the OP visited the Mesa forum? I found that any question I had has already been answered there, for the most part.


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## refusetofall87 (Jul 3, 2012)

noodles said:


> Your opinion doesn't matter for jack shit, since he wasn't asking your opinion. He was asking how to get his rig to work.



Whoa, cool it tough guy. I understand, you guys like rectifier heads. The gentleman needs help with his rig, my suggestion was to use a tube screamer or try a new head. I never once said that rectifier heads are garbage or they suck. I simply said that you can't get a nice, clear heavy distortion tone without certain tubes or the head being modded, mainly because, it has no mid range. On the flip side, duel and triple recs have an excellent clean channel with a nice full, warm tone. I've played these, I know gear, this amp is simply not my thing, so why the hostility?


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## budda (Jul 3, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> I simply said that you can't get a nice, clear heavy distortion tone without certain tubes or the head being modded, mainly because, it has no mid range.



The problem is, this is entirely wrong. That's why everyone's giving you shit


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## refusetofall87 (Jul 3, 2012)

budda said:


> The problem is, this is entirely wrong. That's why everyone's giving you shit



Then let us all agree, to disagree. This website is a community of musicians. We are all entitled to our opinions, if you like a certain amp or dont like a certain amp, constructive criticism should not be a problem. Being rude on the other hand, should not be tolerated.


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## drgamble (Jul 3, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> Then let us all agree, to disagree. This website is a community of musicians. We are all entitled to our opinions, if you like a certain amp or dont like a certain amp, constructive criticism should not be a problem. Being rude on the other hand, should not be tolerated.



I think that we can all agree that some amps are for some, but not all. I know a few guitar players that can make any amp sound muddy because of their technique, on the flip side of the coin I know a few that can make just about any amp sound tight. The thing is that he said "I swept the treble knob from 0-10 and it had no effect on the tone." Now anyone that owns or has owned a rectifier knows that something is wrong if that is true and the OP is looking for help. Just saying the amp is muddy period doesn't help very much. He obviously bought the amp knowing something about its capabilities, at least I hope so. The fact that the tone controls don't work is a problem. We're just trying to get him to a point where he can get the amp to operate normally in the first place before deciding if it is the amp for him. I don't know what his playing skills are and very well may be able to make any amp sound tight. A lot of it has to do with the hands. Trust me I have played with too many guitar players that no matter what they play through just sounds like a blanket of mud.


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## Shaman (Jul 3, 2012)

I had two of my friends play through my Triple back in the day. The other one was this big ass guy who was into lifting weights etc. and the other one was this skinny "hobbit".

Well, the big mofo made the amp sound very muddy and bad, since even though he had a lot of strength, he still had a very light touch when picking. Of course he didn't belive me when I said that the amp sounded bad because of the way he played. It's always easier to blame the gear than your own technique, and since he was this big pile of muscle, he really didn't believe when I said that he picked like a girl.

Well, then the skinny guy picked up the guitar and out comes this tight, percussive and huge guitar tone. How? He has an amazing picking technique, picks super hard and it really comes through when he plays.

That's the way a Recto works, it let's the players technique shine through, it won't forgive like an ENGL.
Yeah, it was cool to play with the ENGL Invader I had, just because it was very easy to play due to the compression. It didn't really matter how hard you picked and it still sounded good, but it lacked all the dynamics that I love in a good tube amp, all the rawness and the organic nature.

But like said, turn down the bass to 8-9o'clock, less gain, pick harder to compensate the gain, mid and treble at about noon. Try that!


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## Shaman (Jul 3, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> I never once said that rectifier heads are garbage or they suck. I simply said that you can't get a nice, clear heavy distortion tone without certain tubes or the head being modded, mainly because, it has no mid range.



Okay, this is not really stating an opinion now is it! If this would be an opinion, it would go something like "To my ears, the Recto lacks midrange" etc.

I know a lot of great metal albums that have been tracked with just an unmodded Recto straight from the box with no new tubes etc. I have never had a need to mod my Recto's to make thems sound tight. Let's see some facts to back your opinion up?

Yeah, the amp is still not for everyone, but saying things like "it has NO midrange" or "you can't get a clear distorted tone out of it" are just ridiculous, because there's a million examples to prove you otherwise!


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## eaeolian (Jul 3, 2012)

refusetofall87 said:


> I simply said that you can't get a nice, clear heavy distortion tone without certain tubes or the head being modded, mainly because, it has no mid range.



So you're stating these things as fact initially, and now it's your opinion since you got called on it?

Ah, I love the internet. As was posted above, the problem isn't you having an opinion, it's your statements that were delivered as facts being pretty much completely wrong - and therefore completely unhelpful.


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## eaeolian (Jul 3, 2012)

drgamble said:


> Whenever I tried to use the loop with 100% mix on the back, I noticed like a ghost tone and it really didn't sound good. I'm thinking about doing the serial mod. It's supposed to be an easy mod just swapping a wire.



I missed this before. This could be indicative of a bad loop tube. Most of your issues are pointing to bad preamp tubes of one sort or another.


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## Sethlab (Jul 4, 2012)

Well guys, I have a lot of 4th of July festivities to go to, I'll get on changing the tubes and trying to isolate the problem. I'll resurrect this thread in a couple of days with my findings. Happy 4th everyone!


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## Sethlab (Jul 7, 2012)

So here's my update. I changed the JJ's out and put back the Mesa tubes it came with. I know people were telling me that they are rebranded JJ's, but they definitely were different. Everything about the Mesa tubes looked different from the JJ's. Anyways, I put them all back in and my knobs do stuff now! I've noticed a little difference in tone, but the knobs are all actually functioning as I feel like they should have. However, I noticed that the Mesa tubes said 12AX7 and the JJ's are ECC83 S. I don't know if these are actually different tubes or just a variation, but they looked completely different and have changed the amp entirely. Did I get the wrong tubes from JJ? I just bought the matched triple rec set, I didn't think I would get the wrong tubes. Anyways, things are much better. I'm still having trouble dialing in the tone and I'm starting to think I need new pickups. I'm just not sure if I should put new pickups in my 6 or get a 7 with new pickups. I really want a 7 string. Anyways, what do you guys think I should do about pickups, any suggestions on good ones? I've only ever had crappy stock pups and EMGs and SD Blackouts. I wanna go passive now though and don't know much.


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## Shaman (Jul 8, 2012)

EMG's usually work very well with a Recto, a good picking hand + EMG's = a gooood tight tone. The 707's for some reason work best with a boost, but an 81 sounds amazing even without a boost.
I would suggest trying the V30's as well, since those make a HUGE difference and 99% of the tight metal tones yo have heard coming from a Recto are tracked with those speakers.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 8, 2012)

Sethlab said:


> So here's my update. I changed the JJ's out and put back the Mesa tubes it came with. I know people were telling me that they are rebranded JJ's, but they definitely were different. Everything about the Mesa tubes looked different from the JJ's. Anyways, I put them all back in and my knobs do stuff now! I've noticed a little difference in tone, but the knobs are all actually functioning as I feel like they should have. However, I noticed that the Mesa tubes said 12AX7 and the JJ's are ECC83 S. I don't know if these are actually different tubes or just a variation, but they looked completely different and have changed the amp entirely. Did I get the wrong tubes from JJ? I just bought the matched triple rec set, I didn't think I would get the wrong tubes. Anyways, things are much better. I'm still having trouble dialing in the tone and I'm starting to think I need new pickups. I'm just not sure if I should put new pickups in my 6 or get a 7 with new pickups. I really want a 7 string. Anyways, what do you guys think I should do about pickups, any suggestions on good ones? I've only ever had crappy stock pups and EMGs and SD Blackouts. I wanna go passive now though and don't know much.


 
The mesa rebrands come boxed with 12ax7a(ECC83) both listed on the side, so I presume they are the same in this case (jj's).
Just swapping tube positions or especially throwing in new tubes in all positions can impact tone even if they are the exact same mesa rebrands.

I guess all I'm saying is that it could just be that the V1 ended up with an individual tube which was more favorable, and if you had tried a few different mesa rebrands in V1 you might have found one that gave a simalar tone and not even had to change the others. 
Or they could be different, I have no clue really, only speculation.


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## Ghost40 (Jul 9, 2012)

Being a first time dual rectifier (3 chan) owner, I found the bass to be flubby, and the distortion to be a little fizzy. HOWEVER, I loved it otherwise. After a couple of posts here, and the Mesa forums, I got it straightened out, and it sounds huge. I am definitely loving the sound. I do use a screamer in front (TS9 modded to 808), but its only to tighten things up with the gain on the Mesa down a bit. My next step is to drop two V30s into my cabinet with the g12s. Good luck, I'd be happy to share my settings if you wanted to try them out.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jul 9, 2012)

If you are unhappy with your Recto *READ THIS*:

If you have a _"reasonably priced"_ cabinet and speakers you will be _disapoint_. 

Invest in quality speakers, cabinets and (commonly overlooked) speaker cables.

Mesa's own cabinets differ from Marshall types in construction and speaker choice. As the amp has a matching cabinet expect the best results from Mesa Rectifier cabinets and similarly constructed and speaker equipped cabs.

**Important bit over now**

Lot's of players aspire to DR's and make great sacrifices to obtain them, after all they are an expensive amp. Often they use substandard cabs, which sounded fine with their previous amps, but are not suitable for use with a Recto. A Recto's treble output requires careful filtering from the speakers or they sound like a root canal treatment whilst the bass output cannot be reproduced by speakers not intended for "modern channel" tones.

@OP
There is a lot of good advice in this thread, I'm sure if you setup your amp in the most simple fashion (Guitar > Amp > Cab) and work through the suggestions something will work for you. Using a Celestion Vintage 30 cabinet, preferably from the Rectifier range, is the only way to be certain your equipment is operating as intended.

_Cabinets and speakers_

If you are using speakers and cabinets unable to reproduce deep bass or fail to low pass filter the mercilessly harsh highs of the Rectifier then you will be very, very disappointed.

Vintage 30's lose a lot of high frequencies, which the amps tones controls are intended to replace, if required. Also most players keep the bass tone control low, as it is a speaker capable of producing very powerful bass.

If your tone controls aren't working, it could be your speakers aren't able to produce the frequencies you are demanding of them.*<<< hint  *

Basically, get some vintage 30's. If you can't get hold of a Mesa cab, order some V30's and install them in your cabs. You could even fit just a pair in your 4x12, wire the cabs inputs as two seperate pairs of speakers and select which to use, leaving 1 pair disabled for recording or both for extremely loud live performances..

_The Red channel..._

On my 3 channel Dual, Red is a copy of Orange with the only difference being a higher value presence pot, increasing the amount of agonising treble content... Sorry, well balanced and musical tonal correction treatment available.

Red = Heavy rhythm, presence LOW, Orange = Lead.

_Close mic'ing strategies_

There is a lot of hype about Recto's but they are good amps, with the right cabs and guitars, and are very touch sensitive. Mic strategy for recording has to be considered carefully, after all, just placing an SM57 up close ... 

Making a DI, reamping the loop and looking for the microphone sweet spot on the cabinet's speakers with headphones can help or having a friend play whilst you listen, as well as combining the 57 or pair of with a condensor, ribbon or dynamic which can capture bass and detailed top, preferably a combination paying close attention to detail on the 3:1 ratio (Google it) of distance between mic's and sources to prevent phase issues.

If you are recording in a small room you may find it hard as you will capture a lot of reverb, so making an effort to deaden the room may help.

_Good luck with everything and I hope you find the sound you are looking for!_


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## VBCheeseGrater (Jul 9, 2012)

On the boost - FWIW i had a Boss OD-3 - just plain old "Boss Overdrive" that totally sucked for boosting, it was muddy and and not tight enough, nothing good. My amp really came alive once i got a Tube Screamer, and some other OD pedals since.

It may be worth trying out another OD pedal - I've never tried yours though, so not sure about it.


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## Shask (Jul 9, 2012)

The OD-3 doesn't really cut bass, so it would sound much more mushy and flabby than a Tubescreamr or Boss Super Overdrive (SD-1).

Speakers, I play mine through a Gflex 212 cab. Massive


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