# Fretless multi-scale?



## techcoreriffman (Jul 8, 2010)

So, my question is, how would a fretless muti-scale guitar work? I know how fretless works, and how mutli-scale works, but I feel like together it would be a huge hassle. It would be difficult to know where to put your fingers on the fretboard when all the "frets" aren't in the same place.

So I was just wondering if any luthiers have any experience with this kind of thing, or anyone for that matter.


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## Justin Bailey (Jul 8, 2010)

you could just inlay the lines of where the frets would be.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

I'm sure it's been done in some way, shape, or form, though I agree with you that it would be very difficult at first. Though, I guess if it has fret lines it would be significantly to get a hang of at first. I've seen a lot of bassists fly around on 7 and 8 string unlined fretless basses with no problem, I don't see why, without a lot of practice, someone wouldn't be able to learn that on a multi-scale. It's all about muscle memory and having a good ear. 

That seems to be a "Super Niche" instrument, so I'm guessing if someone had one made, they'd be willing to put the time in to actually learn how to play it proficiently. 

That being said, if someone's used to playing a multi-scale (as in they're HIGHLY proficient at it) and has a lot of experience with fretless instruments it probably wouldn't be a extreme to get used to. Especially if it was lined.


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## techcoreriffman (Jul 8, 2010)

I didn't really think about the lines. Really what I'm asking is if it would be worth it to make a fretless multi-scale. I'm going to see if my school will let me build a guitar in woodshop next year, and I'm still deciding exactly what to do. And I like multi-scale. And I like fretless. I'm asking how hard it would be to do. And then, if it would even be worth it with playability and all that.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 8, 2010)

Well the fretless is a learning curve in itself, no? This sounds pretty cool for someone who already plays a fretless and/or multi-scale, but terribly difficult for others... 

I'd be interested to see one, though.

I don't see why it wouldn't be "worth it" if you like the sound of a fretless and prefer the feel of a multiscale. If nothing else it'd just be fuckin' cool to try.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

techcoreriffman said:


> I didn't really think about the lines. Really what I'm asking is if it would be worth it to make a fretless multi-scale. I'm going to see if my school will let me build a guitar in woodshop next year, and I'm still deciding exactly what to do. And I like multi-scale. And I like fretless. I'm asking how hard it would be to do. And then, if it would even be worth it with playability and all that.



Well, seeing as the hardest step in making a multi-scale, aligning all the frets properly, and at the right angle across all scales, is being skipped, it'd probably a whole lot easier to build. In theory of course. 

Just find the scale you want on the lowest string, and then highest string, and slant the nut and bridge accordingly.


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## techcoreriffman (Jul 8, 2010)

I've played both seperately, and liked both seperately. I'm not sure if it would work together. To say the least it would be interesting, but I don't want to spend the money, and time and effort into something I won't play.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

techcoreriffman said:


> I've played both seperately, and liked both seperately. I'm not sure if it would work together. To say the least it would be interesting, but I don't want to spend the money, and time and effort into something I won't play.



If you don't like it fretless, then just fret it. You'll have to get a new nut (or shim the one you use when fretless), and maybe adjust the bridge differently, but it can be done. 

I think you're severely over-thinking this.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 8, 2010)

techcoreriffman said:


> I've played both seperately, and liked both seperately. I'm not sure if it would work together. To say the least it would be interesting, but I don't want to spend the money, and time and effort into something I won't play.


 
If it's something someone else will play you can at least make some if not all of that $ back, maybe. 

*Konfyouzd just really wants to see this axe*


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## Justin Bailey (Jul 8, 2010)

seems like this would be the easiest way to make a multiscale actually


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## Necris (Jul 8, 2010)

techcoreriffman said:


> I've played both seperately, and liked both seperately. I'm not sure if it would work together. To say the least it would be interesting, but I don't want to spend the money, and time and effort into something I won't play.


You won't know whether you will use it or not until it's built, but don't want to build it if you don't know you will use it. Sort of a Catch-22 situation.

Build it and enjoy it = Awesome.
Build it and never use it = Sell it. (to me)


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## pink freud (Jul 8, 2010)

That would be one of the most difficult instruments ever. A fretless instrument is all about memorizing finger placement. A multi-scale would just multiply that.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

pink freud said:


> That would be one of the most difficult instruments ever. A fretless instrument is all about memorizing finger placement. A multi-scale would just multiply that.



If there's lines, adapting will be FAR easier than you think. It's also more about your ear than just memorizing when it comes to fretless playing.


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## MF_Kitten (Jul 8, 2010)

it would be very hard to use, considering the difference in note distances from string to string, and how they are closer to the middle on the higher strings and farther stretched out on the lower ones too... you´d have to get lines, and watch the fretboard as you played, i´d say.

with fretless guitars, you don´t need to think that much about intonation, since the playability is so slidy and tactile that you play by ear and feel anyway. i´d say get a long scale fretless rather than a multiscale one.


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## AcousticMinja (Jul 8, 2010)

that guitar would be supercalifragilisticexpialidocious.
I think it would be rather difficult to play, but like everyone is saying, use those fret lines, they should help. Even if they're temporary. Imagine how awesome you'd look, too, when you got good at playing it  haha


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## TruNikkaz (Jul 8, 2010)

Justin Bailey said:


> you could just inlay the lines of where the frets would be.


 
Very good idea.

The harmonics depending on the way you would have your "vertical fret" spot of the neck would differ. It would be very hard to memorize your fan without the fans =P. Inlaying where the frets would be is a simply brilliant idea.


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## pink freud (Jul 8, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If there's lines, adapting will be FAR easier than you think. It's also more about your ear than just memorizing when it comes to fretless playing.



Using your ear is great for correcting mistakes, but ingrained muscle memory is what ensure mistakes don't happen in the first place.


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## troyguitar (Jul 8, 2010)

I've thought about doing it just for fun, but I already almost never play my fretless 8 string because I just don't want to put in the hundreds/thousands of hours necessary to learn it right now.


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## LamaSabachthani (Jul 8, 2010)

On a fretless, do you finger the string where the fret wire itself would normally be? My understanding is that as you decrease the scale length of the vibrating string, the vibration is only occuring past the actual fret wire itself (i.e. playing a G, even though you finger normally in between the outer 2nd fret and the 3rd fret, the vibration is only occuring past that outer 3rd fret | | | | if you get what I mean)


Of course this question is purely out of interest.


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## Trespass (Jul 8, 2010)

pink freud said:


> Using your ear is great for correcting mistakes, but ingrained muscle memory is what ensure mistakes don't happen in the first place.



Violinists have all sorts of tricks when playing in awkward positions. Violinists by nature play out of tune; it's how fast and seamlessly that they correct their pitch that makes them excellent musicians. It's done subconsciously. Each violin is different, and requires you to relearn the exact position of some of the notes. Muscle memory? Absolutely, but ear is equally as important in just hitting the correct pitch, forget fixing mistakes.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

LamaSabachthani said:


> On a fretless, do you finger the string where the fret wire itself would normally be?



Yep.



LamaSabachthani said:


> My understanding is that as you decrease the scale length of the vibrating string, the vibration is only occuring past the actual fret wire itself (i.e. playing a G, even though you finger normally in between the outer 2nd fret and the 3rd fret, the vibration is only occuring past that outer 3rd fret | | | | if you get what I mean)
> 
> 
> Of course this question is purely out of interest.



That's kind of how fretted instruments work. 




Trespass said:


> Violinists have all sorts of tricks when playing in awkward positions. Violinists by nature play out of tune; it's how fast and seamlessly that they correct their pitch that makes them excellent musicians. It's done subconsciously. Each violin is different, and requires you to relearn the exact position of some of the notes. Muscle memory? Absolutely, but ear is equally as important in just hitting the correct pitch, forget fixing mistakes.





Same with cellists, bassists, etc.


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## Necris (Jul 8, 2010)

Practice with a tuner plugged in as as well, if you ever do get/build a fretless it will help your intonation greatly.


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## ixlramp (Jul 8, 2010)

Paul Delano has a piezo only Bee bass:







Bee basses website:
Home


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## techcoreriffman (Jul 8, 2010)

Well I thought about it, and I'm gonna build a baritone 7 fretted guitar as my first project. Fretless Multi-scale 8 will be next. Just for shits and giggles.


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## xtrustisyoursx (Jul 8, 2010)

TalkBass Forums


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## ixlramp (Jul 8, 2010)

41 position fretboard, and 48th position marker on the pickup. Lots of stunning photos at the L-Kah basses website:
Basses L-Kah


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

^ That's pretty fucking epic.


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## Hollowway (Jul 8, 2010)

You could also numb up your fingers and spin yourself around and around while playing it. That way you could guarantee it would be impossible to play.
Seriously, though, there's a reason that there are way more basses that are fretless than guitars. It would be exceptionally difficult to do meedly meedlies on a fretless guitar, so you'd be playing it as a different instrument. But, I suppose that if you dedicated enough time to it (like learning a chapman stick or something) that would be pretty badass. Keep us posted!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 8, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> You could also numb up your fingers and spin yourself around and around while playing it. That way you could guarantee it would be impossible to play.
> Seriously, though, there's a reason that there are way more basses that are fretless than guitars. It would be exceptionally difficult to do meedly meedlies on a fretless guitar, so you'd be playing it as a different instrument. But, I suppose that if you dedicated enough time to it (like learning a chapman stick or something) that would be pretty badass. Keep us posted!



Look at Steve DiGorgio on fretless bass, or Ron Thal on fretless guitar, they have no problem playing extremely fast, technical music on fretless instruments.

I think there are more fretless basses because 1) Jaco Pastorious played fretless, 2) a lot of pioneering bassists came from a fretless upright bass background, and 3) *bassists are about three solid decades ahead of guitarists as far as accepting "new" concepts*. 

What's cool and new in the world of guitar?
Non-Tube Amps
Large Frequency Response Cabs (basically FRFR)
Integrated Synths
Extended Range
Fretless
Multi-scale

What have been HUGELY popular in the bass world dating back to the 80's?
Non-Tube Amps
Large Frequency Response Cabs (basically FRFR)
Integrated Synths
Extended Range
Fretless
Multi-scale


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## Hollowway (Jul 9, 2010)

^^definitely true about #3 above. My thinking was that traditional guitar music would be pretty tough on a fanned fretless, but your point about closed mindedness of guitarists applies to music too, so it would be interesting to see what someone could come up with on the thing. And I'm quite guilty of it myself. For 10 years I though 7 strings were stupid (having never played one) and now I play 8s almost exclusively. I still think it would be damn hard to play though!


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## xtrustisyoursx (Jul 9, 2010)

If you want to see some insane fretless playing, check out Jonas Reingold. it's not multiscale, but his intonation is perfect and he is SHREDDING all fingerstyle on a fretless.


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## walleye (Jul 9, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> What have been HUGELY popular in the bass world dating back to the 80's?
> 
> Fretless
> Multi-scale



i disagree with that. while you see them here and there i wouldnt say they were popular.

i think a better comparison is the fact that 5 string basses are accepted in the mainstream light whereas 7 string guitars are not at all accepted in mainstream music

fretless and multi scale you dont see in mainstream music at all.. at least i havent

i completely understand your points though.


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