# Xbox One



## RustInPeace

Revealed today, Microsofts new console Xbox "One". Pretty standard features shown so far, nothing new and exciting. Thoughts?


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## MaxOfMetal

Based on the link provided in the OP, I don't know what to think. 


I'll probably buy one when my current 360 kicks the bucket again. I just hope these are a little more resilient out of the box. I'm already getting RRoD nightmares.


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## ferret

New CPU/GPU hardware, blu-ray player, set top capability. Not a lot of real detail yet. Dumb name.


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## RustInPeace

Sorry bro! My link has crashed anyways


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## drmosh

Let's see how all this TV integration works in Europe. Being from the UK and living in Germany it's a total arseache to get UK TV and english films/shows to watch already. I fear all this integrated stuff will be entirely useless to me.


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## Cynic

why do they call it the xbox one? 

cause after one game you turn 1 degree and walk over the console and then break it hahahahaahah


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## piggins411

Pretty terrible name. Even Xbox 720 may be better


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## MicrobeSS

What if I want an original xbox, now google will be all confused when I search for it.


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## piggins411

^ Interestingly enough, I went to find pictures of it after it had been announced, and several old Xbox pictures came up


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## ridner

shouldn't it be XBOX 3?


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## F1Filter

Going to wait until all launch titles are revealed @ E3 before making any judgements. But to be honest, the entertainment center integration features left me just as underwhelmed when MS tried to make a big deal out of SmartGlass last year.


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## Khoi

Incredibly underwhelmed by it, it really doesn't offer anything new, just more of the same. I really wish they just focused more on gameplay and the actual games rather than all the other social crap that they seem to be pushing for so hard.


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## ferret

Khoi said:


> I really wish they just focused more on gameplay and the actual games rather than all the other social crap that they seem to be pushing for so hard.



But that's where the real money and market share is now. They're not worried about gamers buying it. Gamers buy consoles. They're worried about how many non-gamers they can tempt, how many people they can convince that another couple hundred for an Xbox is a good buy instead of a Roku or smart Bluray player.


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## Mexi

13 years too late, Microsoft!


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## habicore_5150

So yeah, after hearing some news about Microsoft charging people to play used games: News: Microsoft confirms 'pre-owned fee' for Xbox One - ComputerAndVideoGames.com

Them calling the Kinect a ....ing respirator: Xbox One Will Not Function Without Kinect Attached - IGN

And them effectively killing off backwards compatibility with 360 games: Xbox One not backward compatible with Xbox 360 games | Polygon

Looks like I'm not gonna be getting Microsoft's One Paperweight. Even if they wasn't doing any of that stuff, they really didn't bring anything out that's actually worth looking into


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## Black Mamba




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## HUGH JAYNUS

that has to be a working title. 

they couldn't be that stupid.......


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## HUGH JAYNUS

and im going to wait til release before i decide on this one. if this news about mandatory kinect, and used fees is true upon release, then Microsoft can kiss my black ass.

after the Vita lies, im not believing shit til it hits shelves.

PS4 will be mine though.


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## Necris




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## Mordacain

METAL_WIZARD said:


> and im going to wait til release before i decide on this one. if this news about mandatory kinect, and used fees is true upon release, then Microsoft can kiss my black ass.
> 
> after the Vita lies, im not believing shit til it hits shelves.
> 
> PS4 will be mine though.



If a Kinect is required to be connected to use the console at all, you can guarantee will be included.

Also, you do realize that by your statement, you shouldn't believe anything about the PS4 either right?


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## Mordacain

MaxOfMetal said:


> Based on the link provided in the OP, I don't know what to think.
> 
> 
> I'll probably buy one when my current 360 kicks the bucket again. I just hope these are a little more resilient out of the box. I'm already getting RRoD nightmares.



Given the hardware being basic x86-64 based I seriously doubt they'll have the same teething problems that the original 360's and PS3s had. They already resolved the overheating issues in the last few iterations of the 360, and the new architecture should be a much smaller fabrication on both CPU/GPU so I imagine their experience will bear out and their cooling design will be sufficient this time around.

Odd that there is no backwards compatibility with the original xbox though, since that also used off the shelf x86 based hardware.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Do not want.


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## Taylor

habicore_5150 said:


> So yeah, after hearing some news about Microsoft charging people to play used games: News: Microsoft confirms 'pre-owned fee' for Xbox One - ComputerAndVideoGames.com
> 
> Them calling the Kinect a ....ing respirator: Xbox One Will Not Function Without Kinect Attached - IGN
> 
> And them effectively killing off backwards compatibility with 360 games: Xbox One not backward compatible with Xbox 360 games | Polygon
> 
> Looks like I'm not gonna be getting Microsoft's One Paperweight. Even if they wasn't doing any of that stuff, they really didn't bring anything out that's actually worth looking into



This.


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## groverj3

I don't really care about the loss of backwards compatability... as it's been explained many times over why maintaining that is a waste of resources better spent elsewhere. My 360 will still work, and I'm sure they'll do some sort of cloud-based thing where you'll be able to buy older xbox games to play them on the hardware (just like Sony is going to do with older PS games).

The hardware is more or less identical in capabilities to the PS4, so the graphics on both systems are going to be mostly the same. If there are differences, I probably won't care because I also play games on the PC, which will likely outpace both consoles in a year or two anyway.

The kinect sensor needs to be attached, but it comes with the system and you don't have to use it. Personally, I kind of like the idea of voice commands to change channels. I likely won't use it for gaming, but that's just me.

The reason I've stuck with xbox 360 has been that there are more exclusive games that I want to play and xbox live is a better service than the competition IMHO (although it's not like Sony's service is bad). I already have an xbox live account, and excuse my slight fanboyishness, but I want to play Halo 5 and 6 more than what is exclusive for Playstation these days. So, I'll probably end up picking this up.

The name is kind of lame, but I like the TV integration and voice commands for watching it. We'll see more games at E3, but seriously guys, they're going to look the same on the PS4 and Xbox One, so I'm not really all that concerned with seeing gameplay footage.


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## groverj3

Can't believe I wasted my 1000th post here


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## flint757

Exclusives are the only reason I ever buy consoles which is a shame because I'm only reinforcing their desire to make games exclusive. 

It's a vicious cycle.


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## myampslouder

groverj3 said:


> but I want to play Halo 5 and 6 more than what is exclusive for Playstation these days. So, I'll probably end up picking this up.



Halo 4 is supposed to be the end of the series. 

Halo is supposed to be relaunched as a live action premium TV series with Stephen Spielberg directing. Most of the reports from the reveal confirmed this


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## Taylor

myampslouder said:


> Halo 4 is supposed to be the end of the series.
> 
> Halo is supposed to be relaunched as a live action premium TV series with Stephen Spielberg directing. Most of the reports from the reveal confirmed this



Even after 343 said that Halo 4 was the start of a new trilogy and filed copyrights for Halo 4-6?


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## Rock4ever

I thought their presentation was ok, but there was not alot of real news here aside from tech specs. I'm fine with resetting the name...they could have gone either way to xbox one or xbox 3. 

If they had named it xbox 720 it would have just kicked the can on down to the next console...xbox 1080 sounds stupid. I wonder if this could have been due to the RRoD. If a unit killing defect were to occur(and they usually due on the earliest of the produced units) and the MS response was to stonewall, would gamers cry out XBOX 720- Twice the Spin?!

It was claimed the XB1 would 15 exclusives and 8 new IPs within a year of launch. This seems a bit over the top, but I hope some of them are good. I need something besides Halo, Gears and Forza. Would be nice if Rallisport Challenge(which I loved way more than Forza) or Crimson Skies makes a return.

MS tends to miss on some of their IPs pretty hard-I'm thinking of Crackdown, Brute Force, Blinx and Too Human...and also the kiddie kinect shovelware.

The best decision they made was to not screw with the controller a whole lot.

Edit- Possibly the worst decision they made- requiring a fee to use a disc on another xbox account. So if siblings or spouses want to play on their own accounts, it costs extra? I'm still trying to figure this one out. 

http://www.geek.com/games/xbox-one-...ls-additional-charge-for-disc-re-use-1555995/


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## Captain Butterscotch

Yeah, there's no way they're gonna let Halo, a huge cash cow, die anytime soon. Plus, they've confirmed it is indeed a new trilogy. 

As for the Xbox? I'll pass. Nothing to see here. 

One thing that I don't like is the huge push to be connected 24/7. Screw that. EDIT: and I don't mean the "always online" fiasco. I'm referring to social media and entertainment.


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## Captain Shoggoth

groverj3 said:


> I'm sure they'll do some sort of cloud-based thing where you'll be able to buy older xbox games to play them on the hardware



nope

nooope

NOPE

NOOOOOPE

I'm not buying things I already own.

I'll probably end up caving and getting one but seriously EFF THIS.

M$ should stop attempting to appeal to be a family all-in-one entertainment device (when the whole thing is woefully undersupported anywhere outside the US anyway) and focus on

GODDAMN VIDEOGAMES

god damnit


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## RustInPeace

PS4 vs. Xbox One Comparison Chart - Xbox One Wiki Guide - IGN


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## asher

Will I get one? No, probably not, because I highly doubt I'm going to want to play anything exclusive.

But I think that the interface developments are a huge leap and really important that someone's doing them, especially voice commands that make sense, are responsive, and you don't feel utterly retarded saying.


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## myampslouder

GraveyardThrone said:


> Even after 343 said that Halo 4 was the start of a new trilogy and filed copyrights for Halo 4-6?



Meh...guess I missed that. I'm cool with that though, I love Halo. Possibly my favorite video game series ever.


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## Konfyouzd

Who gives a rat's ass what it's called? I hear everything is going to be stored on the cloud which is what everyone was bitching about previously... I'm actually okay with that as long as they can maintain connections and I don't end up not being able to access my own game over something silly...


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## Konfyouzd

Rock4ever said:


> Edit- Possibly the worst decision they made- requiring a fee to use a disc on another xbox account. So if siblings or spouses want to play on their own accounts, it costs extra? I'm still trying to figure this one out.
> 
> Xbox One has mandatory game installs, additional charge for disc re-use | Games | Geek.com



Now THAT is lamesauce... Not like the games don't cost enough already...

Every time I see shit like this I get this mental image of corporations being giant toddlers that only know the word "mine".


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## asher

http://gizmodo.com/kinect-2-full-video-walkthrough-the-xbox-sees-you-like-509155673

Ridiculous.


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## Necris

From what I've read so far, game installs are mandatory (who knows how fast that 500gb hard drive will fill up) and an internet connection is required to input a single use only authorization code to allow you to actually install your game and have, to quote Phil Harrison, "permission to play the game". 
As far as I can tell there has been no clarification on what happens if you uninstall the game or if the hard drive dies.
If you give the disc to a friend they have to pay full price to get a new activation code to actually play the game after they install it to play it.

There is apparently going to be a way to trade previously played games online but they aren't talking about it yet, merely mentioned that it's "in the works". They should probably start talking about it soon.

I hate linking to Kotaku, but an internet connection being required to run the console _seems_ to have been confirmed as well. What I'm getting from the article is that as long as you connect to Microsofts servers once every 24 hours you can play your game offline without any issues, but if you don't connect to the servers again after that 24 hours for any reason (due to internet issues, etc.) you lose the ability to play at all until you connect again. This seems to be the the first step to the originally rumored "always online" requirement for the console.
http://kotaku.com/xbox-one-does-require-internet-connection-cant-play-o-509164109


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## Khoi

Welp, looks like you might have to pay for a second installation. When you initially purchase the game/CD, it installs onto the hard drive.. but then after that you'll have to pay?!
Wtf?? That means you can't borrow games from friends...


Xbox One game discs are only used for initial installation, fee charged for second account | The Verge


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## flexkill

Khoi said:


> Welp, looks like you might have to pay for a second installation. When you initially purchase the game/CD, it installs onto the hard drive.. but then after that you'll have to pay?!
> Wtf?? That means you can't borrow games from friends...
> 
> 
> Xbox One game discs are only used for initial installation, fee charged for second account | The Verge




I absolutely adore my 360....but if this shit happens....I'm done with them....period.


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## The Munk

From here:
News: Microsoft confirms 'pre-owned fee' for Xbox One - ComputerAndVideoGames.com

"*Update 3:*Microsoft corporate vice president Phil Harrison has suggested that customers who activate a pre-owned retail disc for the Xbox One will need to pay the same price as the original buyer to access the content. When asked by Kotaku whether the secondhand owner will be "paying the same price we [the original buyer] paid, or less" Harrison responded "let's assume it's a new game, so the answer is yes, it will be the same price."




So is that to say, 6 months after release of a game, the price drops and the second hand user gets to pay the release price?!
I know they said 'assume it's a new game', but I don't bother with games until the price comes down anyway. Second hand is not new. It may be new to me, but that's not necessarily new.


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## groverj3

Captain Shoggoth said:


> nope
> 
> nooope
> 
> NOPE
> 
> NOOOOOPE
> 
> I'm not buying things I already own.
> 
> I'll probably end up caving and getting one but seriously EFF THIS.
> 
> M$ should stop attempting to appeal to be a family all-in-one entertainment device (when the whole thing is woefully undersupported anywhere outside the US anyway) and focus on
> 
> GODDAMN VIDEOGAMES
> 
> god damnit



Ummm... it's not like the competition isn't likely to be doing the same exact thing (I was just speculating anyway). You know, you can still use your old consoles. They don't magically stop working when a new one comes out.

I'm not saying I like this strategy, but there are technical reasons that backwards compatibility is more difficult to do than the average person thinks.


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## Necris

edit: 'd


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## groverj3

Also, you don't have to be online to use the thing. Many of the features are online-only, but it's not a requirement to use the system. (Edit: Once per day? Ok, that's stupid... but it's not like PC gamers haven't been dealing with worse bullshit for some time. Diablo 3 anyone? That article saying that it requires a once per day uplink didn't seem very official to me though)

Paying a used game fee like that is lame. I have a feeling that Sony is going to do the same shit though. If they don't, they would definitely sell more units. However, I feel like this is going to become the norm. Things have already been moving in that direction with the "online-pass" BS.


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## groverj3

Rock4ever said:


> MS tends to miss on some of their IPs pretty hard-I'm thinking of Crackdown, Brute Force, Blinx and Too Human...and also the kiddie kinect shovelware.



My college buddies and I played crackdown 1 and 2 all the time. Sometimes I forget that I'm one of the only people alive that liked those games


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## groverj3

Also noticed the GDDR3 vs PS4's GDDR5.

Disappointing. However, will this make a significant difference? Probably not. The PS3 was pretty far ahead in the tech department and the games didn't look significantly better (some looked worse because utilizing the hardware was more challenging).

I guess I'd get both if I could justify it, but I can't... so, since I'm already invested in the M$ universe and exclusives. That's what I'll probably end up with, for better or worse.


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## SpaceDock

Am I the only one who doesn't want a camera pointed at me while I'm sitting in my room? 

I really don't trust the world enough to have this damn camera, with its emotion and life sign monitoring algorithms, watching me every moment that I am inside my own living room. 1984 much? I won't buy this if kinect is required.


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## asher

groverj3 said:


> Also, you don't have to be online to use the thing. Many of the features are online-only, but it's not a requirement to use the system. (Edit: Once per day? Ok, that's stupid... but it's not like PC gamers haven't been dealing with worse bullshit for some time. Diablo 3 anyone? That article saying that it requires a once per day uplink didn't seem very official to me though)
> 
> Paying a used game fee like that is lame. I have a feeling that Sony is going to do the same shit though. If they don't, they would definitely sell more units. However, I feel like this is going to become the norm. Things have already been moving in that direction with the "online-pass" BS.



to be fair, D3 has some good reasons for being online only given the real money trading stuff going on.

Not sure how I feel about the "paying for used as new" thing, except I imagine they'd like to basically move to their own version of Steam.


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## Necris

SpaceDock said:


> Am I the only one who doesn't want a camera pointed at me while I'm sitting in my room?
> 
> I really don't trust the world enough to have this damn camera, with its emotion and life sign monitoring algorithms, watching me every moment that I am inside my own living room. 1984 much? I won't buy this if kinect is required.



Kinect has to be connected for the Xbox One to function at all.
Xbox One Will Not Function Without Kinect Attached - IGN


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Since Angry Joe seems to be pretty respected, and from what I believe, is a big Xbox fan.


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## Captain Shoggoth

groverj3 said:


> Ummm... it's not like the competition isn't likely to be doing the same exact thing (I was just speculating anyway). You know, you can still use your old consoles. They don't magically stop working when a new one comes out.
> 
> I'm not saying I like this strategy, but there are technical reasons that backwards compatibility is more difficult to do than the average person thinks.



I don't understand why I should have to continue having an obsolete machine taking up space beneath my TV because my new console can't do what the PS2 did in 2001. Will saying "Xbox switch to 360" allow me to seamlessly switch to my OTHER GAMES CONSOLE to play games that my main console WON'T LET ME PLAY? Because THAT would be a useful implementation of those voice commands.

What I'm saying is that the gaming industry (MS/Sony etc. specifically) is transitioning towards flashy tacky flavour-of-the-month BS as opposed to good old-fashioned bang-for-your buck gaming and the people that enjoy THAT variety of "immersive entertainment experience". I don't want to watch TV on my Xbox. Hell, I never even use the music player on the damn thing. I just want to play the (surprisingly few) games that I really enjoy.

And if I'm 17 and saying this then I'm willing to bet a significant number of my elders are going to be feeling the same way.


tl;dr, I know that all of the companies are doing this, it doesn't stop me wanting to gather all of their CEOs in one room and give them the finger


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## gunch

Xbox No One Bought It


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## Konfyouzd

I see what you did there...


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## Konfyouzd

Captain Shoggoth said:


> tl;dr, I know that all of the companies are doing this, it doesn't stop me wanting to gather all of their CEOs in one room and give them the finger



Further, the fact that everyone is doing it doesn't mean you have to do it with EVERYTHING. We already have cellphone... excuse me SMARTphone apps, tablets and all kinds of other shit to do the same shit they're trying to pack into a gaming system whilst robbing us of most of the features we previously enjoyed about gaming systems in the first place which is kinda lame.

I was okay with the whole "everything on the cloud" stuff, but the more I hear about this system, the less happy I am about it. I wonder if the price of functioning 360s will go up...


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## Handbanana

Sounds pretty much like a pc. Why not just cut out the middle man and make your own? For all of the amazing xbox exclusives? lawl


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## flexkill

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Since Angry Joe seems to be pretty respected, and from what I believe, is a big Xbox fan.



This dude is a whack job and takes this shit waaaay to serious ....that was frightening!


EDIT: "All da games in mah libary"


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## Konfyouzd

Handbanana said:


> Sounds pretty much like a pc. Why not just cut out the middle man and make your own? For all of the amazing xbox exclusives? lawl



They may have finally pushed me to the PC world...


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## groverj3

Captain Shoggoth said:


> I don't understand why I should have to continue having an obsolete machine taking up space beneath my TV because my new console can't do what the PS2 did in 2001. Will saying "Xbox switch to 360" allow me to seamlessly switch to my OTHER GAMES CONSOLE to play games that my main console WON'T LET ME PLAY? Because THAT would be a useful implementation of those voice commands.
> 
> What I'm saying is that the gaming industry (MS/Sony etc. specifically) is transitioning towards flashy tacky flavour-of-the-month BS as opposed to good old-fashioned bang-for-your buck gaming and the people that enjoy THAT variety of "immersive entertainment experience". I don't want to watch TV on my Xbox. Hell, I never even use the music player on the damn thing. I just want to play the (surprisingly few) games that I really enjoy.
> 
> And if I'm 17 and saying this then I'm willing to bet a significant number of my elders are going to be feeling the same way.
> 
> 
> tl;dr, I know that all of the companies are doing this, it doesn't stop me wanting to gather all of their CEOs in one room and give them the finger



If you want backwards compatibility you have to either include the old hardware in the box (like the PS2 did with PS1 hardware, which drives up the $$) or you have to have a dedicated team work on emulating the old hardware via software. Anyone who does console emulation on PCs can tell you how reliable that is.

I'm just saying that expecting backwards compatibility is unrealistic at this point.

I'm totally with all of you in wishing we could have it, but technically it isn't feasible or cost-effective.


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## flint757

Yeah on a PC I can play games from almost 20 years ago still and I didn't have to pay again to do it. 

Not referring to emulation either, just PC games.


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## flexkill

Konfyouzd said:


> They may have finally pushed me to the PC world...


I warn you now, PC gaming is a never ending money pit of hardware upgrade addiction....I bought a console to ween of of PC


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## Konfyouzd

....... Maybe it's time to quit video games for a bit and focus on playing guitar and gettin' the ladies...


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## groverj3

flint757 said:


> Yeah on a PC I can play games from almost 20 years ago still and I didn't have to pay again to do it.
> 
> Not referring to emulation either, just PC games.



PCs are a much more open platform though. Despite the similarities in hardware/software, consoles are pretty much all proprietary stuff. Plus consoles access their hardware differently than PCs do, the same commands don't always work on different consoles. PC hardware abstraction layers are much more consistent. There are some really old PC games that won't work on current hardware or OSs though.

I would just switch to PC gaming entirely, but I like relaxing on the couch in front of my 46in. TV which is not in the same room as my computer 

Now that you say that about old PC games... I think I'm going to fire up Baldur's Gate 2


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## groverj3

flexkill said:


> I warn you now, PC gaming is a never ending money pit of hardware upgrade addiction....I bought a console to ween of of PC



Yeah, that's why I've never been able to justify going that route.

I remember back in high school, I built myself a mid-priced gaming PC... by the time I graduated it was worthless and gave it to my sister for her to do homework on


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## Konfyouzd

See... I have many computers... Most of which will plug into my TVs in some way... And I know there are controllers available... I could basically have almost the same look and feel with a better overall experience it seems... *ponders*


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## groverj3

Konfyouzd said:


> See... I have many computers... Most of which will plug into my TVs in some way... And I know there are controllers available... I could basically have almost the same look and feel with a better overall experience it seems... *ponders*



I built a linux HTPC (yes, I am that big of a nerd ) to emulate old SNES, N64, PS1, Sega, etc... hardware on and watch movies/TV shows. It's pretty cool, but if you want to cram serious gaming hardware into a box that's going to look like an A/V component, you might have issues.

Definitely a cool thing to do for sure though!


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## nothingleft09

I'm seriously laughing at a lot of you. lol Do you realize PSN will charge for backwards compatablility on the PS4 as well? Same shit. Neither is better than the other. But with EA and NFL partnering exclusively with Xbox and the fact the Xbox One will be 2 times as fast in Ram and almost twice the computing power I'm interested. And from some rumors I've heard from friends in the gaming community it will be faster than the PS4. Although I laughed at the name too (they watched way to much Lord of the Rings) I get the point of the name. It's one point that lets you run everything. Makes sense. It has everything the PS4 is going to have PLUS more and they still haven't told us everything about either console. Also I don't know how many people noticed but everything they showed gamewise today was actual gameplay footage. Not a put together trailer. Either way it doesn't matter. I'll still get the new Xbox because I like how the controller _feels_. Playstation controllers... I hate them. I always have. Just my  on it, but a lot of exclusive games I play are on Xbox and will never be on a Playstation and I honestly feel it's no loss.


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## flint757

groverj3 said:


> PCs are a much more open platform though. Despite the similarities in hardware/software, consoles are pretty much all proprietary stuff. Plus consoles access their hardware differently than PCs do, the same commands don't always work on different consoles. PC hardware abstraction layers are much more consistent. There are some really old PC games that won't work on current hardware or OSs though.
> 
> I would just switch to PC gaming entirely, but I like relaxing on the couch in front of my 46in. TV which is not in the same room as my computer
> 
> Now that you say that about old PC games... I think I'm going to fire up Baldur's Gate 2



Very true. That being said maybe console makers should consider going with a more open platform instead of making excuses. As for games that don't work, I have come across a few and it usually just takes DOSBox or something like that to get it working. The only game I had to re-buy was because the pirate protection software, not the game, no longer worked and I couldn't install it.

My setup is awesome though, I'm running SLI surround and I have my big screen on the wall above my setup as well.

I love Baldur's Gate!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

nothingleft09 said:


> I'm seriously laughing at a lot of you. lol Do you realize PSN will charge for backwards compatablility on the PS4 as well? Same shit. Neither is better than the other. But with EA and NFL partnering exclusively with Xbox and the fact the Xbox One will be 2 times as fast in Ram and almost twice the computing power I'm interested. And from some rumors I've heard from friends in the gaming community it will be faster than the PS4. Although I laughed at the name too (they watched way to much Lord of the Rings) I get the point of the name. It's one point that lets you run everything. Makes sense. It has everything the PS4 is going to have PLUS more and they still haven't told us everything about either console. Also I don't know how many people noticed but everything they showed gamewise today was actual gameplay footage. Not a put together trailer. Either way it doesn't matter. I'll still get the new Xbox because I like how the controller _feels_. Playstation controllers... I hate them. I always have. Just my  on it, but a lot of exclusive games I play are on Xbox and will never be on a Playstation and I honestly feel it's no loss.




Being a Nintendo fanboy, I couldn't give two ....s about the console's processing power and how fast the console it. One of my favorite 7th-gen games was Skyward Sword, and those graphics were comparable to Gamecube graphics. 

I'll keep my games that don't require installations (sans PC, but hey, it's been like that since day one), don't need an internet connection every 24 hours and, used games that don't require fees..


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## flexkill

flint757 said:


> Very true. That being said maybe console makers should consider going with a more open platform instead of making excuses. As for games that don't work, I have come across a few and it usually just takes DOSBox or something like that to get it working. The only game I had to re-buy was because the pirate protection software, not the game, no longer worked and I couldn't install it.
> 
> My setup is awesome though, I'm running SLI surround and I have my big screen on the wall above my setup as well.
> 
> I love Baldur's Gate!



Oh it's awesome and I miss the PC gaming....I just don't miss the money flying out of my bank account.


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## asher

About used and swapping games:

Xbox Live's Major Nelson » Xbox One and Used Games :

Seriously. Basically Steam, but Microsoft.


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## nothingleft09

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Being a Nintendo fanboy, I couldn't give two ....s about the console's processing power and how fast the console it. One of my favorite 7th-gen games was Skyward Sword, and those graphics were comparable to Gamecube graphics.
> 
> I'll keep my games that don't require installations (sans PC, but hey, it's been like that since day one), don't need an internet connection every 24 hours and, used games that don't require fees..


 
That's ok, I'll just buy new games which I do anyway. And I still won't let my friends borrow my shit because it always comes back scratched so it solves a problem for me right there. lol And I always install my games to my HD anyway... cuts down on load times and stuff.  Don't get me wrong though it can go either way for people (or the other way for you. lol) Neither console is in any terms better than the other. It all boils down to which one you like better.  Just like these damn guitars we all talk about on here.


----------



## flint757

I wonder how that will work for redbox and rental companies like gamefly or blockbuster?

[EDIT]

Probably rental releases like the DVD's having less features and saying rental on top for redbox now that I think about it.


----------



## flexkill

I bet Sony is raping Microsoft for bluray rights????


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

xbox one? so is this the prequel?

kinda like star wars movies, hopefully with no jar jar binks...


----------



## Matt_D_

http://kotaku.com/the-entire-xbox-one-reveal-summed-up-in-1-5-hilarious-509197649


----------



## Khoi

Matt_D_ said:


> http://kotaku.com/the-entire-xbox-one-reveal-summed-up-in-1-5-hilarious-509197649



Incredibly accurate, and really how everyone's feeling!


----------



## Tang

Khoi said:


> Incredibly accurate, and really how everyone's feeling!




yup.



> Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty TV TV TV TV TV Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Call of Duty Sports Sport Sports Call of Duty


----------



## Xaios

All complaints about the nature of the device aside (and they are numerous), one thing I LOOVE is the visual aesthetic of the new box. No console has ever looked so at-home in an A/V rack.


----------



## wookie606

I will no doubt buy this and the PS4 because I am a dirty gaming whore.
Already got the Wii U :/


----------



## petereanima

Wow, so the Xbox one is a windows-phone for your TV, that has some awesome features like electronic TV-program, which every 30,- cable-receiver has as standard for years. Awesome Microsoft, thanks, wow!


----------



## thedonal

I wonder if they'll actually manage to fit a quiet fan into the first edition of this one...


----------



## groverj3

Not to sound condescending (since I'm not a fan of all of this myself) but...

This is all starting to sound like old people bitching when they update a program on their computer and a button looks different, although it's still in the same location, and does the same thing


----------



## Rojne

I haven't read everything in this thread yet, but I just wanted to say that Microsoft probably shot themselves in their own knee-caps with this one!

As I read in a comment's section on our swedish Gamereactor site..

_Sony did everything right, except showing us the console!
Microsoft did everything wrong, besides showing us the console!_

Not a fanboy or anything like that, but I want my Gaming-console to be a..yes, a Gaming-console!

This coming generation I will grab myself a PS4, if anything!


----------



## Mordacain

The thing I've never understood about gaming is the fanboy-ism of one particular console over the other.

Seriously, it's a device that plays games (or possibly other stuff as well) and both the XB1 and PS4 have essentially the same hardware this generation. What that tells us is that both systems will offer similar performance. Since they are both based on x86-64 hardware, this also tells us PC ports from consoles (and vice-versa) will perform similarly from one console to the next.

Really, more than ever, what will set the consoles apart is there exclusive content. So, if there is a game you want only on a particular console, buy that console.

Arguing that one console is superior over the other is as stupid as arguing that Ibanez is superior to Ernie Ball.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

All I want from both the Newer consoles is a box that plays games. 

I don't want a ....ing TV. 
I don't want a ....ing NetFlix box. 
I don't want a ....ing FaceBook box. 
I don't want a ....ing clever ass marketing scheme to widen their consumer base with the "average family" in mind. 
I don't want a ....ing entertainment hub. 


I want a ....ing gaming console. That plays games. And does it damned well and isn't ashamed to be a simple gaming box. I don't give a single shaken and not stirred .... about your synergistic relationship betwixt your smart phones and your console and your tablet. 

I also certainly don't like this 1984 Kinect thing that has to be on all the time. That's incredibly uncomfortable for me and I'm not a conspiracy guy. 

/rant


----------



## Mordacain

Captain Butterscotch said:


> All I want from both the Newer consoles is a box that plays games.
> 
> I don't want a ....ing TV.
> I don't want a ....ing NetFlix box.
> I don't want a ....ing FaceBook box.
> I don't want a ....ing clever ass marketing scheme to widen their consumer base with the "average family" in mind.
> I don't want a ....ing entertainment hub.
> 
> 
> I want a ....ing gaming console. That plays games. And does it damned well and isn't ashamed to be a simple gaming box. I don't give a single shaken and not stirred .... about your synergistic relationship betwixt your smart phones and your console and your tablet.
> 
> I also certainly don't like this 1984 Kinect thing that has to be on all the time. That's incredibly uncomfortable for me and I'm not a conspiracy guy.
> 
> /rant



Different strokes. I can honestly say my Xbox 360 spent at least half it's operational runtime on Netflix (at least before I built a media center PC).

I love that gaming systems do different things now. I like being able to stream music and videos off my media server or bring up Netflix or Hulu or CruncyRoll. I like the idea that the new Xbox might be able to replace cable TV for a lot of people. Personally, I cancelled TV last year and the few shows I watch, I watch online and still save money and don't have to have a separate box for it now.

Seriously, none of the extra services interfere with the gaming aspect of the device in any way so why worry about it?


----------



## zuzek

Mordacain said:


> Seriously, none of the extra services interfere with the gaming aspect of the device in any way so why worry about it?



I don't get the logic behind this at all. Implementing all kinds of services naturally bring more economic costs with it, so the price of the end product becomes higher. People that care about console gaming will generally want to buy a console for its gaming abilities, not for immediately updating your fantasy league during an NBA game. This is the same type of development as with smartphones: you can do x, z, y and.. you can use it to call as well! A lot of people simply do not need, or even want, all the extra fluff. The problem is that the Xbox is associated with console gaming, not with an all-in-one entertainment box that Microsoft has sold it as in the event. I get they're trying to shift/overlap markets, but their approach just results in a disconnect with the fundamental group that is actually interested in the product before it's become popular/trendy. The Xbox One has been introduced and marketed as an all-in-one entertainment device. The Playstation 4 has been introduced and marketed as a gaming platform that happens to do other things too. I say this as a person that owns neither company's consoles and doesn't care about one company over the other.

In my own opinion, the Xbox One represents a lot of what's wrong with consumerism. It keys and plays into laziness more than convenience and presents gimmicky/gadgety goodies as something that you should want and need in your life.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

I'm not gonna bother with it. Sounds too geared towards something I just don't give a damn about. Consoles were great when they were strictly for games because they only had to focus on that one thing. When something has a singular purpose, it usually does that one thing well. Instead of doing a lot of things subpar. Sure you could have a swiss army knife (and they're great for when you're out and about so this may be a bad comparison) but the full sized versions of each tool are better at doing what the tool was designed for.

It's one of the things that separated consoles from PC's for the better. Now it's just a shitty PC with shitty hardware, and no mouse/keyboard functionality in games. All of this on top of some of the other things I heard makes me just not even want to bother. I don't feel I'll be missing out on much. (I'll wait a year or so after release and see how things are then before I dive in, if I ever do dive in.)

Also, wear and tear. If I drop 400-800 (or whatever they're gonna cost, I really haven't seen anything because I just don't care much about consoles these days) I don't want to burn out the parts lifespan on watching movies when I have TV's and old consoles for that.


----------



## Mordacain

zuzek said:


> I don't get the logic behind this at all. Implementing all kinds of services naturally bring more economic costs with it, so the price of the end product becomes higher. People that care about console gaming will generally want to buy a console for its gaming abilities, not for immediately updating your fantasy league during an NBA game. This is the same type of development as with smartphones, you can do x, z, y and.. you can use it to call as well! A lot of people simply do not need, or even want, all the extra fluff. The problem is that the Xbox is associated with console gaming, not with an all-in-one entertainment box that Microsoft has sold it as in the event. I get they're trying to shift/overlap markets, but their approach just results in a disconnect with the fundamental group that is actually interested in the product before it's become popular/trendy.



Microsoft or Sony doesn't incur the cost of development, the host company does (ie: Netflix, Hulu, HBO, whoever).

Your reasoning for buying a game console does not necessarily equate with the reasons someone else buys a "game console." Basically, you have no justification or statistical data to backup your claim that "most people" buy a game console to play games. Sony and Microsoft obviously have data that people would like to use their consoles to do other things, or there would not be such a big push by both companies to make sure that their systems can be more universal devices.

To me, I think of a console as an entertainment device. That can mean any number of things, from playing videos to playing games.


----------



## flexkill

Mordacain said:


> is as stupid as arguing that Ibanez is superior to Ernie Ball.




Ibanez is no where near the quality of Ernie Ball, so yes, that would be stupid....


----------



## Mordacain

Let me put some numbers to this:

Netflix Statistics | Statistic Brain

50% of Netflix users stream their content via a game console.

I have an older HDTV that I have 0 compulsion to upgrade that does not have have built-in streaming functionality. Apparently, so do a lot of other people.

I'd rather use my console rather than pay for a Roku or Google TV or whatever other device.

My whole point with this is that I've been a gamer since I was a kid back in the Atari days and have seen the whole of evolution of gaming. I've not seen gaming suffer one iota due to innovation (in this case, making the console more of an entertainment set-top box).


----------



## Mordacain

flexkill said:


> Ibanez is no where near the quality of Ernie Ball, so yes, that would be stupid....



I realize you're probably being sarcastic there, but if not, it still an arguable point which you can't really quantify with any real data.

Opinions are just opinions until there is data to back up the claim. Personal experience does not equate with data.


----------



## Mordacain

thedonal said:


> I wonder if they'll actually manage to fit a quiet fan into the first edition of this one...



There's a quiet fan in the current Xbox so I'd say it's highly likely


----------



## zuzek

Mordacain said:


> Your reasoning for buying a game console does not necessarily equate with the reasons someone else buys a "game console." Basically, you have no justification or statistical data to backup your claim that "most people" buy a game console to play games. Sony and Microsoft obviously have data that people would like to use their consoles to do other things, or there would not be such a big push by both companies to make sure that their systems can be more universal devices.



Correct on your first sentence, not on the rest. You do not have any statistical evidence to back up your argument. You put the power of knowledge in the hands of supposed experts, trusting that Sony/Microsoft somehow know exactly what future markets will be like. Yes, they have many experts advising them on this, but as the past has proven time and time again this is part knowledge and part guess work. Basically, you do not have justification or statistical data to argue that most people buy a game console for non-gaming purposes. It's an empty statement.

The obvious fact that the Wii was by far the most popular out of all of last-gen consoles backs this up. Simply by the sheer market size that the Wii had over the PS3/Xbox 360, my argument is correct up to this point in time. What I was saying is that Microsoft is trying to shift markets with the Xbox One. Microsoft market it as an all-in-one entertainment device, not a gaming console. Hence, you have the disconnect because people view and understand the Xbox as a gaming console, because that is simply what it has been up to this point in time.

Thanks for letting me know about the development costs by involved third parties by the way. I did not know about this and stand corrected.


----------



## Mordacain

zuzek said:


> The obvious fact that the Wii was by far the most popular out of all of last-gen consoles backs this up. Simply by the sheer market size that the Wii had over the PS3/Xbox 360, my argument is correct up to this point in time. What I was saying is simply that Microsoft is trying to shift markets with the Xbox One, they market it as an all-in-one entertainment device, not a gaming console. Hence, you have the disconnect because people view and understand the Xbox as a gaming console, because that is simply what it has been up to this point in time.



The last time I checked, the Wii was marketed as a family fun device, not as a hardcore gamer machine. The Wii had Netflix as well. If anything, that supports my argument.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I also certainly don't like this 1984 Kinect thing that has to be on all the time. That's incredibly uncomfortable for me and I'm not a conspiracy guy.
> 
> /rant



This I agree with, too. 

Also, if I want Netflix, I can just use my computer.



> The last time I checked, the Wii was marketed as a family fun device, not as a hardcore gamer machine. The Wii had Netflix as well. If anything, that supports my argument.



Nintendo has been known for being a family-friendly company, even before the Wii. It works for them, not for Xbox.


----------



## zuzek

Mordacain said:


> The last time I checked, the Wii was marketed as a family fun device, not as a hardcore gamer machine. The Wii had Netflix as well. If anything, that supports my argument.



Whether Wii's games are oriented towards families, individuals or only hardcore gamers has absolutely zero to do with my argument. Yes, about 25% of Netflix users come from the Wii. But! Look at the regional availability of Netflix, user concentration among those regions (hint: it's almost only the US) and total Wii sales numbers. Then come back to me. I agree with you completely that data trumps experience, yet your entire point of entry regarding the discussion seems to be very much based on an American-centric experience.

The Xbox One is a product for American families, not for the global gamer.


----------



## flint757

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I don't want a ....ing NetFlix box.



That's pretty much 70% of what my PS3 is for (and HULU, Amazon Videos, VUDU, etc.). The other 30% is for the exclusives. Everything else gaming wise I do on a rockin PC. 

I think for some people times are apparently moving too fast for you. Sometimes having things the way they used to be just doesn't happen anymore. Reminds me of people complaining about each new release of Windows and then eventually liking it.

I have no intentions in purchasing either console unless it has extras that entice me, my PS3 dies, or there is an exclusive I just must have. Too much money to throw at a one trick pony IMO. At least with a PC if you beef it up it can also make a good unit for video editting, DAW, programming, etc. and not just gaming. If they kept it exclusively for gaming only they'd honestly need to reconsider their pricing structure. 



Señor Voorhees;3565885 said:


> It's one of the things that separated consoles from PC's for the better. Now it's just a shitty PC with shitty hardware, and no mouse/keyboard functionality in games. All of this on top of some of the other things I heard makes me just not even want to bother. I don't feel I'll be missing out on much. (I'll wait a year or so after release and see how things are then before I dive in, if I ever do dive in.)



The hardware in these is actually pretty good apparently, so not shitty. And I'd bargain a lot of console purchasers do so because they don't like mouse/keyboard (even if it is superior in every way ). Tons of reasons to not get it like the resale thing and the internet connection requirements, but having netflix and whatnot is honestly not one of them.



Señor Voorhees;3565885 said:


> Also, wear and tear. If I drop 400-800 (or whatever they're gonna cost, I really haven't seen anything because I just don't care much about consoles these days) I don't want to burn out the parts lifespan on watching movies when I have TV's and old consoles for that.



You'll be fine. The components will not kick the bucket on you that rapidly. Also, if you admit to using old consoles for multimedia purposes how can you scold them for doing so on new units as well. Not everyone owns or keeps their old gear lying around (hence the backwards compatibility debate too). If your old console still works why would you assume that the wear and tear would be too much on this new one?



zuzek said:


> Basically, you do not have justification or statistical data to argue that most people buy a game console for non-gaming purposes. It's an empty statement.



But neither do you. 



zuzek said:


> The obvious fact that the Wii was by far the most popular out of all of last-gen consoles backs this up. Simply by the sheer market size that the Wii had over the PS3/Xbox 360, my argument is correct up to this point in time. What I was saying is that Microsoft is trying to shift markets with the Xbox One. Microsoft market it as an all-in-one entertainment device, not a gaming console. Hence, you have the disconnect because people view and understand the Xbox as a gaming console, because that is simply what it has been up to this point in time.



Wii had major family appeal though. That means it is a more likely purchase. and Nintendo is known for doing 2 things well: getting there first and keeping a low price point. Blaming their better sales on a lack of certain features is reaching.


This is all coming from a guy who honestly hates consoles too.  For me it is a necessary evil.


----------



## ncfiala

I for one am very disappointed in the direction gaming is going. I am 39 and have been playing video games since I was 5. I grew up in the arcades. I have pretty much any console or handheld you can think of going back to the 70's up to the Wii U. My house is a shrine to video games. There are consoles and games everywhere. There are pixelated video game graphics on the walls and Lego pixel sculptures all over the place. I have a bunch of arcade games in my house and garage. I even study the history of video games. But now I think it might be time for me to stop buying new consoles and games and just focus my playing and collecting on past generations.

The fact is that I buy consoles for one purpose and one purpose only: to play games. Not to go on-line. Not to watch TV. Not to watch movies. Not to listen to music. Not to exercise. Not to smack talk with 12-year-olds playing the latest military shooter that is exactly the same as the last 50 military shooters.

Ok my rant is over.


----------



## zuzek

flint757 said:


> But neither do you.



That I haven't presented the data doesn't mean it's not out there. This is why I hate academics. Anyway, let's have some fun!

Doing some basic maths. 25 million Netflix Users in the US (see here). Wii sales in US 24 million up to end 2010 (see here). 25% of Netflix users from Wii (see here), meaning 6 million Wii-users have at one point in time -not regularly/daily!- used it for Netflix. Not too impressive, if you ask me.



flint757 said:


> Blaming their better sales on a lack of certain features is reaching.



I didn't say this. The only counter to my argument I can see is simply that the Wii is cheaper and thereby financially speaking more attractive. The fact that Netflix was only available on the Wii since late 2010, compared to Xbox 360's two years earlier, tells us that people want a gaming console (whether it is marketed as such or not is irrelevant, the perception of consumers counts for consumer goods) for games, not for secondary features. Regardless of whether those games are family/casual/hardcore oriented. Again, this is not relevant to the argument.

Anyway, enough with my crusade.


----------



## hairychris

Well, looks like my comments on the other thread were proven pretty much true:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/co...-next-xbox-being-always-online-console-2.html

Bye bye used market.


----------



## Mordacain

hairychris said:


> Well, looks like my comments on the other thread were proven pretty much true:
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/co...-next-xbox-being-always-online-console-2.html
> 
> Bye bye used market.



As someone who used to work in the video game market, I am honestly happy to see it go. I never buy used games because I know the developer doesn't see any of that money. I will wait for sales, sure, but the developer still gets a cut of the revenue.

I get people don't like that, I do, but as things move from physical copies ever more to digital copies, it's bound to become less about physical ownership and more about owning a license.

Developers get more money, better games get produced.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Well if that's the case then hopefully they'll begin giving us more of the game upfront now as well... The DLC thing is getting out of hand. I'm don't have a problem with change or compromise so long as the compromise is mutual--otherwise you're just being pimped.


----------



## Mordacain

zuzek said:


> The Xbox One is a product for American families, not for the global gamer.



Report: PS3 Surpasses Xbox 360

The PS3 took over 6 years to overtake the Xbox360 in terms of global units sold. 

As gamers, we can all agree that the Wii was not ever meant as the gamer platform of choice, so this leaves that distinction to the Xbox and Playstation, which share those duties roughly evenly.

So, why is the Xbox not a console for the global gamer again?

Just so everyone knows where I'm coming from, I'm primarily a PC gamer and use my consoles for exclusives and streaming. I can use my PC, but the interface is just nicer on the consoles.


----------



## zuzek

Mordacain said:


> Developers get more money, better games get produced.





I don't see the second hand sale of music CD's or DVD's being illegal. How are retail games different?


----------



## Mordacain

zuzek said:


> I don't see the second hand sale of music CD's or DVD's being illegal. How are retail games different?



Much higher development cost for one. There also isn't a huge market in secondhand movies / music like there is with games. Gamestop is the largest game retailer in the world and their used department is a major component in that. Music / movies just don't have a similar setup going in the retail market with a major chain moving lots of used items. 

And if you buy digital music / video, you can't sell it second-hand; you are buying a license, not the item itself. I'm not arguing that games should necessarily move from physical copies yet, but I believe eventually that the convenience factor will win out globally, so it's an eventuality we'll all have to deal with in time.


----------



## hairychris

Mordacain said:


> As someone who used to work in the video game market, I am honestly happy to see it go. I never buy used games because I know the developer doesn't see any of that money. I will wait for sales, sure, but the developer still gets a cut of the revenue.
> 
> I get people don't like that, I do, but as things move from physical copies ever more to digital copies, it's bound to become less about physical ownership and more about owning a license.



That's the whole thing. The model is changing from physical ownership to IP licensing, as demonstrated ably by the whole legal/illegal phone unlocking saga. Always on internet allows enforcement of copyright in a way that it hasn't been historically.



Mordacain said:


> Developers get more money, better games get produced.



Someone tell those wankers at EA that, please.


----------



## zuzek

Mordacain said:


> As gamers, we can all agree that the Wii was not ever meant as the gamer platform of choice



I thought a few posts ago you were chastizing me for making general assumptions. If I understand your argument correctly you mean 'gamer platform of choice' as 'hardcore gamer platform of choice'. For the third time then, whether games are aimed at casuals or hardcore gamers has nothing to do with my argument.



Mordacain said:


> This leaves that distinction to the Xbox and Playstation, which share those duties roughly evenly.



What distinction? Which duties? Netflix?

Again, looking simply at where Netflix users come: 'MURICA! Where does ESPN come from and where are its viewers based? Where is the NFL and NBA the most popular? Etcetera, etcetera. It's really not all that hard to figure out why the Xbox One as it was presented is a product for the American family, not for the global gamer.



Mordacain said:


> Much higher development cost for one. There also isn't a huge market in secondhand movies / music like there is with games. Gamestop is the largest game retailer in the world and their used department is a major component in that. Music / movies just don't have a similar setup going in the retail market with a major chain moving lots of used items.
> 
> And if you buy digital music / video, you can't sell it second-hand; you are buying a license, not the item itself. I'm not arguing that games should necessarily move from physical copies yet, but I believe eventually that the convenience factor will win out globally, so it's an eventuality we'll all have to deal with in time.



Fair point. However, I feel these _publisher_ side demands are mainly related to the nature of the video game industry (you either make big bucks or lose out big time on reputation and deals, even if you break even), not necessarily the development costs themselves. We were talking about retail, but you bring up good criticism of the move towards digital markets. Interestingly, the EU demands licenses of digital goods be transferable (something Steam has to solve now), which will be massively problematic for Microsoft if they go ahead with the Xbox One as is currently known.


----------



## Mordacain

ncfiala said:


> I for one am very disappointed in the direction gaming is going. I am 39 and have been playing video games since I was 5. I grew up in the arcades. I have pretty much any console or handheld you can think of going back to the 70's up to the Wii U. My house is a shrine to video games. There are consoles and games everywhere. There are pixelated video game graphics on the walls and Lego pixel sculptures all over the place. I have a bunch of arcade games in my house and garage. I even study the history of video games. But now I think it might be time for me to stop buying new consoles and games and just focus my playing and collecting on past generations.
> 
> The fact is that I buy consoles for one purpose and one purpose only: to play games. Not to go on-line. Not to watch TV. Not to watch movies. Not to listen to music. Not to exercise. Not to smack talk with 12-year-olds playing the latest military shooter that is exactly the same as the last 50 military shooters.
> 
> Ok my rant is over.



So the latest military shooters being the same is different somehow from the bazillion platform jumpers from the old days that were all the same as the next how?

I see this argument a lot and frankly I can't understand it. Coming from someone who grew up with the original games and having watched them evolve, how is it that people still lament every new generation as being the death knell for gaming?

This past generation as given us the first real viable market for independent developers, who have some amazing triumphs to show for it. The next generation is posed to improve on this trend, with an easier toolset and a unified hardware that will enable ports across all three platforms (PC, PS4, XB1) with similar performance. That to me is amazing.

And seriously, how can you not play something like Bioshock Infinite and not be amazed at how far gaming has come? In that you have a game that not only has brain-stretching concepts, an amazing narrative while being topical to current events and being an wonderfully fun game to play. How is that not an amazing transition from Pong, Frogger, Mario Bros?


----------



## Mordacain

zuzek said:


> I thought a few posts ago you were chastizing me for making general assumptions. If I understand your argument correctly you mean 'gamer platform of choice' as 'hardcore gamer platform of choice'. For the third time then, whether games are aimed at casuals or hardcore gamers has nothing to do with my argument.
> 
> 
> 
> What distinction? Which duties? Netflix?
> 
> Again, looking simply at where Netflix users come: 'MURICA! Where does ESPN come from and where are its viewers based? Where is the NFL and NBA the most popular? Etcetera, etcetera. It's really not all that hard to figure it out.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair point. However, I feel these publisher side demands are mainly related to the nature of the video game industry (you either make big bucks or lose out big time on reputation and deals, even if you break even), not necessarily the development costs themselves. We were talking about retail, but you bring up good criticism of the move towards digital markets. Interestingly, the EU demands licenses of digital goods be transferable (something Steam has to solve now), which will be massively problematic for Microsoft if they go ahead with the Xbox One as is currently known.



GAMER duties. Hardcore gamers are not to whom I am referring; I am referring to general gamers that are not playing family-centric titles. Basically, I mean everyone that are not parents or children playing games made for children and families exclusively. Sorry if that point was not clear. The world over, the distribution of consoles has been fairly even area to area. So, when looking at the average gamer, they are roughly equal the world over in terms of distribution. Though the Wii still has titles that fall into that general gamer category, it is not Nintendo's primary market, which we've all pretty much agreed upon.


----------



## zuzek

Mordacain said:


> GAMER duties. Hardcore gamers are not to whom I am referring; I am referring to general gamers that are not playing family-centric titles. Basically, I mean everyone that are not parents or children playing games made for children and families exclusively. Sorry if that point was not clear. The world over, the distribution of consoles has been fairly even area to area. So, when looking at the average gamer, they are roughly equal the world over in terms of distribution. Though the Wii still has titles that fall into that general gamer category, it is not Nintendo's primary market, which we've all pretty much agreed upon.



I think I'll stop here . Good 'sparring' with you!


----------



## Mordacain

zuzek said:


> I think I'll stop here . Good 'sparring' with you!



That's cool man. I'm not really trying to spar with anyone.

I just don't understand the negativity people are showing towards a piece of new tech.

Seriously, it's another choice, how is that a bad thing? No-one's forcing you to buy one console or another, it really does not matter. The fact that the Xbox and the PS are essentially the same box (hardware-wise) going forward should really drive that home. Buy whichever one you want when it comes out, but railing against what features they both have or how they are going to be marketed is just silly to me since neither is available right now.


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## flint757

I think the people who really like XBOX exclusives are the ones who are mostly upset because they don't have 'choices' technically. I'm not a fan of anything they have as exclusive, not enough to bite, but they seem to be getting even more exclusives coming this way.

I will say having Netflix and socializing software on my PS3 did not make it a worse gaming box and I definitely never touch the social software on it. There are a lot of assumptions that they are going to 'neglect' something because of everything else which is something that should wait until it hits the market before making a judgment on. There are plenty of things to not like about it, but seriously, having extra software on it really isn't one of them.

They may handle the used market more gracefully than you think too. If you buy/sell to Gamestop the only one dealing with any hassle will most likely be Gamestop, not you. Having to log in to a friends box or trade games with a friend sounds a bit like a hassle, but it hasn't bothered me much on my PC.

I'm not an XBOX fan and have no intentions on getting one, but a handful of the complaints seem a little dramatic, especially when other issues hold more genuine concern.


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## RustInPeace

Regarding always online and paying fees for used games... Its a business decision that must be made to stop the bleeding. Gamestop has made a shit-ton of money off of used game sales and none of it gets back to the developer. 

We as consumers feel ENTITLED to have AAA titles and to pay as little as possible for them. We have paid release day prices for consoles, supported our favorite game developers, ridiculed EA for being a business while still buying thier products. We want quality NOW... for as little as possible. We have all done it... Its release day for some 3A game and you check your bank account... hmm I can keep playing some other titles for a bit longer and wait till this shows up a bit cheaper used. Its being smart with your money, patience, etc. Its great. But it hurts this industry. 

I had 2 guys on my ball hockey team back in 2006 that worked for Bioware in Edmonton. Coders. They wouldnt tell me all the details, but they were working on something epic at the time. Something they were calling Mass Effect. The amount of time these guys said they dedicated to working on it is ridiculous. They had beds in the office for late night programming runs that happened very often. They worked extremely hard, but they loved what they were doing. These people need to get paid to make a living and keep giving us amazing entertainment value in our games. 

I understand gamestop employs many people.. but they are just the middle man. MS is trying to help get our money back to the developers so they can make more awesome games, but for some reason we dont want to do that?

I agree with what was said above. If were going to be forced to pay premium for our games and our content, there has to be a compromise. No more Day 1 DLC, microtransactions, etc. Maybe the "fee" should be at a discounted price, similar to the pricing system that gamestop used, based on the age of the game?

Remember when DLC was an "expansion pack" and was more than 4 new multiplayer maps and 1 old map from the previous game? Neverwinter Nights is one of my favorite games just for the awesome expansions that were made for it...


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## VBCheeseGrater

The used games thing is a sham. I am all for forcing the genuine disc to be present in the machine to play the game to protect from pirating or easy duplication of the product, but buying used or borrowing physical items is not pirating, yet MS is treating it as such. They are essentially saying "You can't resell our product" by requiring the same price to be payed to install the used game - which makes the transaction from seller to buyer worthless. Shady bastards. When you buy a consumer product, you are then the sole owner. When you sell, Microsoft should not have their hand out for a cut of the resale (which is already a loss to the consumer).


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## ncfiala

Mordacain said:


> I never buy used games because I know the developer doesn't see any of that money.


 
Why should they see any of that money? I don't agree with piracy and I don't do it, but I do buy used games a lot to save money. Once someone buys something he is free to sell it and someone else is free to buy it. If I sell my car should Hyundai get a cut? If I sell my house should the builder get a cut? Absurd.


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## habicore_5150

Xbox One won't let indies self-publish | Joystiq

Xbox One contains non-replaceable hard drive - GameSpot.com

Been thinking about why Microsoft decided to call their new console "One"
Now that I've been seeing these bits of news pop out, I think them using the name "One" is a good idea
It's gonna be that One product that's either gonna kill MS, or at the very least put a giant hole in them

*EDIT*
A friend of mine from the UK did a spot on video about the Xbox One
The SMS Cooks Up An Xbox One - YouTube


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## Mexi

wow they won't let indies self publish? foolishness.


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## Mordacain

ncfiala said:


> Why should they see any of that money? I don't agree with piracy and I don't do it, but I do buy used games a lot to save money. Once someone buys something he is free to sell it and someone else is free to buy it. If I sell my car should Hyundai get a cut? If I sell my house should the builder get a cut? Absurd.



The developer makes the game, of course they need to see money from it. A game is not a physical possession. The disk that game comes on is, but the game itself is not. This has changed since the old days. You are not buying a cartridge-based game with low development costs, you're buying something that costs more to make than the budget of most hollywood movies to develop a tier one title.

This is why EA and other developers have started disabling online content with used games, so as to force someone's hand with regards to used sales and recover lost revenue.

What's absurd is thinking that a developer can sink 200 million worth development costs into a game and that they shouldn't see the revenue from it.


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## Mexi

VBCheeseGrater said:


> When you buy a consumer product, you are then the sole owner.



I wish this was true, ugh I wish it was so. Oftentimes, in the fine print of the EULA of most products, they explicitly (or implicitly) state that you are buying the right to use the product (like a license) but not actual ownership of it.

We've already seen hints of this on absurd DRM in products. And honestly, this is coming from Microsoft; you have to buy a license to use virtually any of their software. Look at any songs you buy from iTunes, you can't burn them onto whatever product you want or transfer them where you want, only where Apple says you can. While unfortunate and regrettable, this is a rising trend that will give us less ownership of things we "buy" going into the future.

edit: I take issue with the belief that by destroying the used-games market, which employs thousands of people globally, it would automatically lead to better revenues to the people that deserve it. Blame companies like EA, who are notorious for mismanaging everything from resources to manpower, for not allowing for proper compensation to the devs. Developers should be compensated fairly for the work that they did on a game, that is fair. You worked your ass off for two years to put a game together? then the company is responsible for making sure you are compensated.

It is not the fault of gamers, consumers and workers of these used-game retailers that devs are not fairly compensated. Yes, let's ruin companies for the *hope* that it will lead to "proper" reimbursement of devs. There is a real problem here, but attacking the used-games market is a lazy solution to a more fundamental problem of the economics of the video game industry. Mismanagement of these companies *cough* 38 studios *cough* has ruined more developers' lives than losing $15-20 per used game resale.


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## Necris

Having no real interest in any of the next generation systems none of this really affects me but it will be kind of interesting to see how this works out. It will almost certainly end the used games market for this generation but, while it's admittedly unlikely, may actually lead to a decrease in sales of physical copies of new games anyway since the discs are only used for installation.

As I understand it after installing and authorizing the game to play on your account you could reuse the disc over and over again to install the game on to different systems with different accounts but upon going to play the game on any of those other accounts you would essentially be blocked by a pay wall (for lack of a better term) requiring you to buy an authorization code to actually be able to play the game.


The "pre-owned" fee is still confusing as well, since while all of the signs point to it being full retail price for the game as stated by Phil Harrison*, but as far as I can tell no-one has asked if the price will drop over time as the game ages.

Gamers aren't the most patient people in the world so I can't imagine this hurting Microsoft as much as it may seem like it would. 
Even assuming the Pre-owned fee for a game does decrease with time I can't see any of the gamers I've met choosing not to buy a copy of a newly released AAA title and instead borrowing the disc from a friend, installing the game and then waiting 3+ months to be able to authorize their account to play the game a price lower than full retail.


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## Mordacain

I guess I just don't see things the same way as other people. I have not thought of games as possessions since Steam really started rising in prominence. I view games no differently than I do going to the movie theater now. There is an up-front cost associated with paying for an entertainment experience. 

I only go to theaters to see certain movies, so those are the only ones I pay full price for. Everything else I rent or buy on sale.

I seriously doubt, that when digital distribution takes over as primary distribution method that there will not be a "rental" scheme in place. Rental is a deeply entrenched concept with regards to movies and games.

If anything, digital distribution has enabled me to play more games as I can stock up on games I don't feel the need to play on release day while they are on sale. The developer still gets money directly from me, the games are always available, as opposed to physical copies that degenerate over time and are only manufactured for short periods of time (for less popular titles).

I realize I'm probably expressing an unpopular opinion, but that's all it is, an opinion. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees is wrong, just that I might think differently and to me, none of this is doom and gloom, end of the world type stuff.


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## groverj3

Now that I think about it... I don't think I've bought more than one or two used games in the last 5 years. I tend to buy stuff I want right when it comes out anyway.

I seriously don't think most of the bitching is warranted. Just wait until Sony shows off the hardware, and they do the same exact stuff. I'd be very surprised if they didn't. I'm no prophet, but I really do think that's the way the industry is going. It's been that way with big PC games for years now.

You know how you can't play XBLA games on someone else's profile unless you're logged into yours if they don't own it? It's essentially like that, but with full games.

I also heard that your purchases are tied to your console as well as your gamertag. Meaning, people with multiple profiles on one box can still play games on any of them as long as you stay on the same xbox. It's only when you go to a friend's system that you will need to be logged into your profile.

Some of this stuff sounds way more annoying that it will actually be in practice, I think.


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## ncfiala

Mordacain said:


> The developer makes the game, of course they need to see money from it. A game is not a physical possession. The disk that game comes on is, but the game itself is not. This has changed since the old days. You are not buying a cartridge-based game with low development costs, you're buying something that costs more to make than the budget of most hollywood movies to develop a tier one title.
> 
> This is why EA and other developers have started disabling online content with used games, so as to force someone's hand with regards to used sales and recover lost revenue.
> 
> What's absurd is thinking that a developer can sink 200 million worth development costs into a game and that they shouldn't see the revenue from it.


 
I makes no difference if the game is on a disk or cartridge. It makes no difference if the product is physical or intellectual. It makes no difference if the game costs millions to develop. Once a game is purchased the purchaser has the right to sell it to anyone and anyone is allowed to buy it and the developer is entitled to exacly squat. It's called the first-sale doctrine. Cars cost millions to develop and are filled with all sorts of patents and intellectual property. That doesn't entitle car manufacturers to a cut every time a used car is sold.

On the other hand, Microsoft has every right to do what they are doing as well. I just think it's a really asshole move and I won't be buying.


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## flint757

groverj3 said:


> I seriously don't think most of the bitching is warranted. Just wait until Sony shows off the hardware, and they do the same exact stuff. I'd be very surprised if they didn't. I'm no prophet, but I really do think that's the way the industry is going. It's been that way with big PC games for years now.



It depends on which angle they go with. They can either stand beside Microsoft, make a cut of every XBOX sale (Blu Ray) and make money off the lack of resales as well with Microsoft or trump them and sell more games/units by not doing the same thing (gamble, people may not give a shit). 

At this point I think it could go either way. Considering they've been neck and neck all this time and they will profit off of XBOX sales I could see them definitely following suit. It is a financially smart move. 



ncfiala said:


> I makes no difference if the game is on a disk or cartridge. It makes no difference if the product is physical or intellectual. It makes no difference if the game costs millions to develop. Once a game is purchased the purchaser has the right to sell it to anyone and anyone is allowed to buy it and the developer is entitled to exacly squat. It's called the first-sale doctrine. Cars cost millions to develop and are filled with all sorts of patents and intellectual property. That doesn't entitle car manufacturers to a cut every time a used car is sold.
> 
> On the other hand, Microsoft has every right to do what they are doing as well. I just think it's a really asshole move and I won't be buying.



I don't think they are getting rid of the used market, but more modifying it. We can debate the necessity or rights about it all day, but it doesn't seem like they are completely eliminating the used market and they are going to do what they are going to do anyhow. If I were to guess it has more to do with Amazon, Gamestop, Walmart etc. selling used games more than the individuals. This whole issue is most likely going to happen behind closed doors (with the middlemen) and us as consumers probably won't even notice at all. These companies, especially Gamestop, make a killing for doing nothing. When they sell a new game they owe, I assume, the publishers, developers, etc. a cut, but as soon as it is used all the profit is their's. 

I buy a CD and I don't 'use' the CD, I use what was stored on it. The CD cost the company nothing and has been around for a long time now. It is the contents that pays the bills and takes years/money to develop. This is why licensing exists. This is how software and PC games has been for a long time now. It was only a matter of time before everyone else caught up.


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## Mordacain

ncfiala said:


> I makes no difference if the game is on a disk or cartridge. It makes no difference if the product is physical or intellectual. It makes no difference if the game costs millions to develop. Once a game is purchased the purchaser has the right to sell it to anyone and anyone is allowed to buy it and the developer is entitled to exacly squat. It's called the first-sale doctrine. Cars cost millions to develop and are filled with all sorts of patents and intellectual property. That doesn't entitle car manufacturers to a cut every time a used car is sold.
> 
> On the other hand, Microsoft has every right to do what they are doing as well. I just think it's a really asshole move and I won't be buying.



I'm well familiar with First Sale Doctrine. I also know it's been reinterpreted more times than Kafka and continues to be challenged with different results frequently.

All that any publisher needs to do is make each copy of the game a non-transferable license and sell that instead. This is why EA can get away with restricting online content, as it is licensed, not sold.


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## ncfiala

Mordacain said:


> I'm well familiar with First Sale Doctrine. I also know it's been reinterpreted more times than Kafka and continues to be challenged with different results frequently.
> 
> All that any publisher needs to do is make each copy of the game a non-transferable license and sell that instead. This is why EA can get away with restricting online content, as it is licensed, not sold.


 
To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.

Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.


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## Mordacain

ncfiala said:


> To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.
> 
> Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.



That's funny, it just seems to me like gamers (a select group anyway) are whining. I see so many comments from people about how new games suck and they just wish the industry would go back to the way it was in their childhood. The funny things is...those games are still there. New games are being made in the same style as older games that kick all sorts of ass but at the same time, we have amazing games that are not only pushing the bounds of gaming, but story-telling and sound production as well.

The odd thing about those more retro-flavored Indy games is that no-one really seems to care (in the US anyway) that they can't resell those titles once they've downloaded them. I'd be very interested to see if the EU court ruling even stands or what else comes of it to that effect.


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## flint757

ncfiala said:


> To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.
> 
> Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.



Then why would you bother wasting your money on new games at all. Just buy old games/catridges or emulators and have at it.


The game, movie and music industry do have to deal with people playing without paying which is quite a bit different than other industries. I can test drive a car, but I'd have to buy it or steal it to use it for longer than a test drive. No other industry gets it because no other industry has to deal with what software, movies, music, games, etc. have to deal with...at least for now.


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## Matt_D_

ncfiala said:


> To me it just seems like game makers are whining. They want something (money from resells) that absolutely no other industry gets. What makes them special. The answer is nothing.
> 
> Frankly, if these ridiculous multi-million dollar budgets are making it hard for game companies to turn a profit, then start making games with less development costs. I would love that. It would be nice to see games that are actually good games and not just eye-candy that suck ass. Great games like Metroid and The Legend of Zelda I'll remember playing all my life. Probably 90% of the games I play now I'll never really remember playing. Sure they look great. But they're mostly unmemorable pieces of crap that are just like a bunch of other games. I'd love it if the movie industry would do the same. They spend huge amounts of money to just to put out one turd after another. I could probably count the number of good movies I've seen in the last decade on my hands.



hi, i used to be a game developer. let me explain what's happening.

games cost a lot to make. most console titles are in the region of 20-50 million USD. thats before advertising. you've got a team of 100+, with contractors working for about 12-18mths. its extremely expensive to make modern console type games. 

thats a lot of money to make back, dead space 3 according to reports had a target of 5 million sales. it'd probably need somewhere around the 3 million just to break even.

the problem is that at the height of the ps2 era, when there was 100million+ consoles you could sneeze and sell a million copies. game budgets were much lower as well, ranking in at about 5 million. coupled with less games on the market, you'd see much higher sales figures for even non-mainstream games. hell burnout revenge (the only ps2/xbox game I worked on) did well over 4 million copies.

swapping generations means budgets went up. expectations for quality are much higher. we're in a very similar situation to where film was at the end of the 80's action movie period. every game is a blockbuster, every game cost 20+ million to make, and every game needs to sell millions to make money. this also means that companies take less risks, and try to hit as broad a target market as possible to ensure high sales. (just like film again). every AAA (ugh) title needs to sell over a million copies. most struggle to hit 100k

we're already seeing a massive upswing in indie games that are actually *good*. unfortunately there's so much product out there that actually selling enough to break even is *hard* (much like film again, right?)

if you want interesting games, you need to vote with your wallet. buy indie games you like, dont buy madden. dont buy COD. dont pirate shit. dont buy used games from eb. put your money where your mouth is.

now why does the second hand sale market matter? gamestop/eb etc are effectively competing with the industry itself. you very rarely find say, a department store which sells new clothes, and secondhand clothes from the same label next to each other. it doesnt happen. whats worse is that they'll 'buy your games' back for massively undercut value, and sell them at close to actual retail price, especially for new games. 

when pretty much the entire industry is struggling to hit their sales targets, and the second hand market is the only thing keeping afloat brick and mortar game stores. you've got a big problem. its not so much that the games industry wants to make money off second hand sales (but of course they'd like to). its more that they dont want to have to compete with similar priced used versions of the product they're trying to sell to stay in business. thats the real problem with the 'used game market'. not the selling of games per se, but the fact that the industry is competing with the very conduit of actual retail sales. its a very very odd situation.

its one of the many reasons that you'll see the next gen go mostly digital. they'll have to have some retail presence to keep wallmart happy, (wallmart wont carry the consoles if they cant make money off the software). 

again. it all boils down to money. and if you want interesting games vote with your wallet. fund kickstarters of things you like, buy indie games. put your damn money where your mouth is. and dont buy used games if you can. support developers who actually do interesting things. think about who your money is going to. its the same for musicians as it is for gamedev and film. its up to us, the consumers to back the things we like. 

</endrant>


----------



## Spinedriver

I only bought my PS3 less than 2 years ago, so I won't be first in line to get a next gen system or anything. That being said though, the options being presented on the new Xbox don't seem very appealing for a number of reasons.

1. Having to install disc games on the hard drive is going to suck because if you have games that are 15-20 Gigs, between those and DLC, that drive is going to get filled up pretty damn quick. They did say you can connect an external drive but those cost money as well. 

2. It seems like the main focus of the system is 'online activity' meaning streaming video, social sites, etc.. Thing is, not everyone has unlimited internet bandwidth, so the more they make the system dependent on being "online", there could be pretty huge secondary costs for a lot of people. My mom lives outside of town and their internet connection maxes out at 1.8 Mbps and have a bandwidth of about 25 Gb. So for anyone who lives in a rural area, it's going to be pretty limited.

I dunno, I guess I'm just in the same boat as a few of the others here that remember the days of the N64, SNES, PS2, etc.. where all you had to do was go out, buy a game and you could play it. If you wanted to play against friends, get another controller(s) and that was it. It seems these days, games are being designed mainly for multiplayer/online use and solo play a distant second (even reviewers spend more time talking about the online gameplay & features than they do single player mode).


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## groverj3

Matt_D_ said:


> hi, i used to be a game developer. let me explain what's happening.
> 
> INFORMATIVE STUFF HERE



The hard truth that lots of gamers don't want to hear.

I love gaming just as much as the next guy, and most of my friends are the same way. However, the "hardcore" gamers I know are disappointed by EVERY development in the industry. Sometimes I wonder if they actually like ANYTHING... because all they do is bitch.

While I don't like some of the developments, at the end of the day it will affect my day to day life very little. It won't even have much of an effect on playing games


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## Spinedriver

Matt_D_ said:


> its one of the many reasons that you'll see the next gen go mostly digital. they'll have to have some retail presence to keep wallmart happy, (wallmart wont carry the consoles if they cant make money off the software).
> 
> </endrant>



As I mentioned above, this is also a bit of a sticky situation for the developers. Not everyone has access to a) high speed cable or fiber op internet connections. or b) many internet providers (particularly in the US) put a data cap on user bandwith before they start either throttling the speed down to a crawl or start charging an overage fee for every Mb over their limit.

Back in the day, all you had to do was get the system and it was easy after that. you could either rent or buy games at a video store, borrow them from friends, get them at flea markets, etc.. everyone could enjoy them. 

With all of the "developers are losing money on used sales", endless DLC stuff that costs money and games whose primary focus is online play,banter going around, it seems that more & more the console market is being made for people with deep pockets rather than people who like to play video games.


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## VBCheeseGrater

Mordacain said:


> What's absurd is thinking that a developer can sink 200 million worth development costs into a game and that they shouldn't see the revenue from it.



All due respect (really) they DID see the revenue when the new copy was bought. just not for the resale. If someone sells the game, they can no longer play it (and shouldn't be able to). The person who bought it can now play it. If both need to play the game - two copies must be bought (new from the developer at some point). 

I'm all for developers getting money for the products they create and can see your side - pirating sucks!! But these are still video games selling millions of copies similar to DVDs, CD,s etc, this is not a SQL Server Enterprise licence we are talking about. As long as the ability to play the game is removed from the seller, then used games are legit.



Mordacain said:


> All that any publisher needs to do is make each copy of the game a non-transferable license and sell that instead. This is why EA can get away with restricting online content, as it is licensed, not sold.



I hear you on this - it's just a shame that it's gotten to this point for $50 console games.


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## groverj3

A random interjection, but on the subject of backwards compatibility:

"The move away from PowerPC to 64-bit x86 cores means the One breaks backwards compatibility with all Xbox 360 titles. Microsoft won&#8217;t be pursuing any sort of a backwards compatibility strategy, although if a game developer wanted to it could port an older title to the new console. Interestingly enough, the first Xbox was also an x86 design - from a hardware/ISA standpoint the new Xbox One is backwards compatible with its grandfather, although Microsoft would have to enable that as a feature in software - something that&#8217;s quite unlikely."

AnandTech | The Xbox One: Hardware Analysis & Comparison to PlayStation 4


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## Matt_D_

Spinedriver said:


> As I mentioned above, this is also a bit of a sticky situation for the developers. Not everyone has access to a) high speed cable or fiber op internet connections. or b) many internet providers (particularly in the US) put a data cap on user bandwith before they start either throttling the speed down to a crawl or start charging an overage fee for every Mb over their limit.



yup. and a lot of those providers also had deals with sony/ms for unmetered downloads  there will always be some retail option (see sony with the vita using small sd type cards), but the vast majority of transactions will be digital. 

there's going to be a rough changeover period though for the next decade or so. living in australia i know all about shitty internet.

maybe retail will change to somewhere you can download content. remember those disc burning things that were touted to change "music retail" from the early 2k's?



> With all of the "developers are losing money on used sales", endless DLC stuff that costs money and games whose primary focus is online play,banter going around, it seems that more & more the console market is being made for people with deep pockets rather than people who like to play video games.



well, a lot of companies are resorting to the above to try and make money because straight sales arent there. and yeah i hate it too. i really hate F2P. im always left wondering "how much exactly am i going to end up paying to actually enjoy your game". very few get it right, most leave me feeling that if i'd had known i'd have to sink 20$ into it to get any fun out of it i'd have just played something else. I really tend to just avoid anything F2P these days. 

But as i said above. lots of people are doing the right thing. its up to us to get behind them and encourage that behavior. while F2P is making money, people will continue to pursue that revenue channel...

its like flocking behaviour. everyone just flocks towards the largest channel of incoming money.


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## Matt_D_

groverj3 said:


> A random interjection, but on the subject of backwards compatibility:



both wont be backwards compatible. unless sony are sticking ps3 hardware in their ps4. strangely. the ps4 and xboxOne will be almost identical hardware wise


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## groverj3

Matt_D_ said:


> both wont be backwards compatible. unless sony are sticking ps3 hardware in their ps4. strangely. the ps4 and xboxOne will be almost identical hardware wise



Yeah, I'm quite aware. Just putting a good explanation out there about the lack of that feature for people who don't understand the reasons.


----------



## flexkill

I remember when buying new current games for my Genesis was 20 Bucks and I would buy many a week....good times. I also remember when Mortal Kombat came out for the Genesis and it was the first time I payed, I think it was 60 bucks, for a game and I was like....Jesus 60$ freaking dollars!!!!!! I knew that things were changing for the worse right then and there...


----------



## Matt_D_

flexkill said:


> I remember when buying new current games for my Genesis was 20 Bucks and I would buy many a week....good times. I also remember when Mortal Kombat came out for the Genesis and it was the first time I payed, I think it was 60 bucks, for a game and I was like....Jesus 60$ freaking dollars!!!!!! I knew that things were changing for the worse right then and there...



try living in australia. games were > 100$ AUD even after the USD and AUD had hit parity. thankfully they're down to about 70$ atm.


----------



## nothingleft09

I really don't get all this defending the used game market that's going on here. I for one am tired of spending $60 on a damn game only to turn around and get offered $10 or even $5 for it AND THEN see it sitting on Gamestops shelf for $30-40. This is the kind of shit we as gamers support? Bullshit. That's the same as buying a brand new guitar, selling it for pennies, and watching the guy you sold it to make 5 times the profit when he immediately re-sells it. (Guitar Center) How many of you are cool with doing that? To hell with the used game market because all they do is feed off gamers. You are basically saying I don't care if the person who traded it in gets screwed as long as I get it cheaper... then you are going to sell it and get screwed too and then YOU are gonna be pissed because you got screwed on your trade in?  

As for the other crap, my Kinect is always hooked up. My connection is always on. Do you unplug your router and modem EVERY night before bed? No? Guess what? You're connection is always on. The shit people are bitching about is shit they already do. Best Buy has the same kind of pre-order deals and giveaways as Gamestop. Peace out Gamestop, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.

As for the argument towards Xbox being geared towards American content... I don't see a problem with that. They are an American company. Granted you non Americans have plenty to be unhappy with considering the VAT, duties and shipping stuff you deal with, but there are 2 HDMI ports. 1 in, 1 out on the XB1. You're cable box plugs into the HDMI IN and thats how you get the TV through the Xbox. I don't see a problem here, but as someone mentioned it's hard getting US shows overseas... just watch local programming. lol Some stuff you may not use, but just... don't use it. It will be the same with the PS4 as well. In my case I would love to watch a bunch of non US sporting events if I could. Of course on the other side, if PS4 were to include a bunch of Japanese exclusive sports and TV then anyone outside of Japan would be pissed also. So I see your point.

Hardware wise, I will never buy a PS4 because of one specific thing. AMD Jaguar processors. I have had terrible luck out of AMD. I used to work at a PC store and AMD is well... Crap (from my personal experience of course).


----------



## Handbanana

Amds not crap. Their GPUs are on par with nvidia. They're just behind in the game ATM. I've had plenty of solid amd rigs.


----------



## Xardoniak

RustInPeace said:


> PS4 vs. Xbox One Comparison Chart - Xbox One Wiki Guide - IGN



The person who wrote that mixed up GDDR and DDR.


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

Mordacain said:


> If a Kinect is required to be connected to use the console at all, you can guarantee will be included.
> 
> Also, you do realize that by your statement, you shouldn't believe anything about the PS4 either right?



True. But as i will want the PS4 anyway, eventually i will end up having both. But probably not until a couple years into the Oneboxes life span


----------



## Mordacain

nothingleft09 said:


> Hardware wise, I will never buy a PS4 because of one specific thing. AMD Jaguar processors. I have had terrible luck out of AMD. I used to work at a PC store and AMD is well... Crap (from my personal experience of course).



Unless I missed something, both XB1 and PS4 are using AMD provided CPU/GPU based on the Jaguar platform.

I've built over a dozen AMD-based systems over the last two decades. As far as I know, all of them are still running (even the lowly K6). AMD's quality control is the same as Intel, their chips are made at the same foundry.

The one thing AMD does that Intel doesn't do quite so much is that they will lock cores and sell the part with a different sku if it doesn't meet up with it's original spec. Basically, a higher-end part gets sold as a lower-end part if all say, it was only stable with 3 cores active instead of 4. I actually kind of dig that as it can be a value add for the overclocker.


----------



## HUGH JAYNUS

Hmmmmmm........ 

Maybe its time for a Sega Genesis One lolz


----------



## petereanima

Am I actually the only one who doesn't want a multimedia center, with a camera that is filming me nonstop, that is online nonstop, sat on the TV, on which I also happen to watch some...uhm...."movies"? I hope Microsoft adds "move fist up and down" motion to kinect as shortcut for "SHARE TO ALL SOCIAL MEDIA". That would be a cool feature in addition.


----------



## Mordacain

petereanima said:


> Am I actually the only one who doesn't want a multimedia center, with a camera that is filming me nonstop, that is online nonstop, sat on the TV, on which I also happen to watch some...uhm...."movies"? I hope Microsoft adds "move fist up and down" motion to kinect as shortcut for "SHARE TO ALL SOCIAL MEDIA". That would be a cool feature in addition.



Having a read through this thread will clearly show that you are NOT the only one who doesn't want that 

However guys, seriously, stop letting your fears run away with you. It's already been discussed that the box is not "always on." And it was only commented that the kinect needed to be connected, not that it would be recording.

Really no offense intended guys, but put down 1984 for awhile and let the paranoia ease a bit


----------



## Konfyouzd

nothingleft09 said:


> I really don't get all this defending the used game market that's going on here. I for one am tired of spending $60 on a damn game only to turn around and get offered $10 or even $5 for it AND THEN see it sitting on Gamestops shelf for $30-40. This is the kind of shit we as gamers support? Bullshit. That's the same as buying a brand new guitar, selling it for pennies, and watching the guy you sold it to make 5 times the profit when he immediately re-sells it. (Guitar Center) How many of you are cool with doing that? To hell with the used game market because all they do is feed off gamers. You are basically saying I don't care if the person who traded it in gets screwed as long as I get it cheaper... then you are going to sell it and get screwed too and then YOU are gonna be pissed because you got screwed on your trade in?
> 
> As for the other crap, my Kinect is always hooked up. My connection is always on. Do you unplug your router and modem EVERY night before bed? No? Guess what? You're connection is always on. The shit people are bitching about is shit they already do. Best Buy has the same kind of pre-order deals and giveaways as Gamestop. Peace out Gamestop, don't let the door hit you in the ass on the way out.
> 
> As for the argument towards Xbox being geared towards American content... I don't see a problem with that. They are an American company. Granted you non Americans have plenty to be unhappy with considering the VAT, duties and shipping stuff you deal with, but there are 2 HDMI ports. 1 in, 1 out on the XB1. You're cable box plugs into the HDMI IN and thats how you get the TV through the Xbox. I don't see a problem here, but as someone mentioned it's hard getting US shows overseas... just watch local programming. lol Some stuff you may not use, but just... don't use it. It will be the same with the PS4 as well. In my case I would love to watch a bunch of non US sporting events if I could. Of course on the other side, if PS4 were to include a bunch of Japanese exclusive sports and TV then anyone outside of Japan would be pissed also. So I see your point.
> 
> Hardware wise, I will never buy a PS4 because of one specific thing. AMD Jaguar processors. I have had terrible luck out of AMD. I used to work at a PC store and AMD is well... Crap (from my personal experience of course).


 
Thats true... I almost always buy games new unless I've had it before and traded it already. Then I buy it used... That or I just trade games with a friend and cut out the middle man. 

I do kind of like the used game market for the fact that if I have some games I don't like too much or don't play very much anymore I can just go to the store, give them to someone and get one I do like in return... That part of the deal is the only part I even think about. 

If XBL somehow let you trade in games you buy off there I'd be all about that shit. I've downloaded a lot of games from there that ended up being garbage (I know it's my fault, but I'm a consumer and I get to bitch; I'm a programmer at work and this tends to be the attitude of any end user) and I'm kinda just stuck with it. I can delete it fromy hard drive, but the money is already spent and gone... It would also be nice if they had a demo for every game they have for sale rather than you having to go on faith with some of them but that may be a grievance to take up with the actual developers.

Then again, none of these gripes may even be on MS's radar--perhaps rightly so... I dunno their intentions.


----------



## synrgy

I've been a gamer longer than I even have memory of. Some of my earliest memories are playing shit like Pitfall, Frogger, Target Games, Pacman, Atlantis, etc, on Intellivision (the Sears branded Atari). From that era, through each generation, to present, I've managed to keep up.

I think my interest is _finally_ waning. That said, it has nothing to do with the hardware, or any of the other stuff most folks here seem to be complaining about. I'm just not finding the content to be compelling. The last game/franchise I was truly _excited_ about was Mass Effect, and the way that turned out after EA took the reigns really left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm tired of FPS games, and I'm tired of racing games, and I'm tired of sports games, I'm tired of fighting games, and I'm tired of platformers and puzzlers. For the few of you on my XBL friends list, you may have noticed that most of my gaming time these days is focused almost exclusively on strategy titles like XCom or Civilization. Granted, there's nothing new or exciting happening in that genre, either, but it's the only one left from which I'm currently getting any enjoyment. I guess I'm just surprised that people are complaining about the tech, when the glaring problem - to me - has nothing to do with the tech, and everything to do with a complete lack of creativity on the software side of the equation.

The launch titles shown from MS and Sony are looking like this won't change any time soon. More boring continuations of well established franchises.

That said, I will probably still end up with a console from this upcoming generation. Why? Because I - unlike a lot of you, it seems - DO have interest in a single box for all my home entertainment needs. I don't *like* having to switch inputs on my television if I want to play a game (xbox) watch tv (cable) or watch a bluray (bluray player). I *like* the idea of being able to do all those things with one centralized device, and the idea of being able to control that centralized device with my voice. Plus, my internet connectivity virtually *never* stops, sans a power outage, so that angle doesn't bother me, either. Further, since the moment the 360 allowed install of disc to hard drive, that's what I've done. I've _long_ looked forward to industry getting rid of discs/cartridges/physical copies. They load considerably faster from the HD than they do from a disc. Done and done!

Any of you doing regular gaming really _should_ be on a good router backed by a good firewall, anyway, and therefore shouldn't be worried about the "big brother" fears Kinect tech seems to inspire. Side note to that: Those fears remind me of when I was a small child, and I had an irrational fear that behind every mirror I looked into, some unknown - probably evil - thing was watching me. 

Besides: If Sony were at your birthday party, it would fart on your cake and then take back the gift it brought you on its way out the door.


----------



## Konfyouzd

^ Excellent points... I hadn't considered the convenience of it being a set top until now. Currently the second HDMI port on my TV is bad... So I have to go back and manually switch them to go between TV and XBOX... Buying the new XBOX would save me the cost of a new TV--maybe... 

Also, I bought the latest Dead Island... Somehow it ended up getting ringed (I didn't bump the XBOX or knock it over or anything) and my friend just happened to have the game as well and let me install his disc. BAM! I can play mine again. So eliminating discs would actually make my life a bit easier as well.

The ONLY gripe I could potentially have is having to pay for shit for which I feel I've already paid.


----------



## nothingleft09

Mordacain said:


> Unless I missed something, both XB1 and PS4 are using AMD provided CPU/GPU based on the Jaguar platform.
> 
> I've built over a dozen AMD-based systems over the last two decades. As far as I know, all of them are still running (even the lowly K6). AMD's quality control is the same as Intel, their chips are made at the same foundry.
> 
> The one thing AMD does that Intel doesn't do quite so much is that they will lock cores and sell the part with a different sku if it doesn't meet up with it's original spec. Basically, a higher-end part gets sold as a lower-end part if all say, it was only stable with 3 cores active instead of 4. I actually kind of dig that as it can be a value add for the overclocker.


 
From what I've read, XB will be going with custom built CPU's. My main reason for not being into AMD is when I worked at a CP store we had a lot of problems with them. It's been a few years but it really turned me off to AMD in general. And like I said it was just from a personal experience with their product. But once again, it boils down to a personal preference. lol I haven't given the company a really good look in quite a while so I may do that again, seeing as how everything I own computer wise is either Intel i7 or Core2duo powered.


----------



## flexkill

Handbanana said:


> Amds not crap. Their GPUs are on par with nvidia. They're just behind in the game ATM. I've had plenty of solid amd rigs.



The last time AMD CPU's where relevant was socket 939 days.....man those things used to overclock like a BEAST!!!!


And as far as ATI is concerned....used to love their GPU's until they merged with AMD.....They promised Driver improvement and stability and it has only got worse.


----------



## Mordacain

flexkill said:


> And as far as ATI is concerned....used to love their GPU's until they merged with AMD.....They promised Driver improvement and stability and it has only got worse.



I've never had issues with ATI driver stability. I've got a 7850 running in my media center now and it's solid as a rock. System has been up for going on 45 days without a hickup.


----------



## Mordacain

nothingleft09 said:


> From what I've read, XB will be going with custom built CPU's. My main reason for not being into AMD is when I worked at a CP store we had a lot of problems with them. It's been a few years but it really turned me off to AMD in general. And like I said it was just from a personal experience with their product. But once again, it boils down to a personal preference. lol I haven't given the company a really good look in quite a while so I may do that again, seeing as how everything I own computer wise is either Intel i7 or Core2duo powered.



Xbox One: Hardware and software specs detailed and analyzed | ExtremeTech

Out of the several dozen systems I've built, I've never had a problem with a single AMD processor. Granted, most of your problems that people bring to you in a computer store are from one of two things: cheap ass motherboard or cheap ass power supply. Sadly, most of your consumer systems have both of those in abundance and since AMD is the low budget processor of choice, is the one you would see most frequently when one of those low priced systems would fail.


----------



## flexkill

Mordacain said:


> I've never had issues with ATI driver stability. I've got a 7850 running in my media center now and it's solid as a rock. System has been up for going on 45 days without a hickup.



Good for you, I have never had luck with them....


----------



## Mordacain

flexkill said:


> Good for you, I have never had luck with them....



Well, it really doesn't matter with regards to the Xbox or Playstation since Microsoft & Sony will be writing their own driver set.

I wasn't trying to be a dick, I've just seen people complaining about the ATI drivers for years, never citing a specific example that wasn't just a general configuration problem on their system and so have never understood what it was they were bitching about.


----------



## nothingleft09

Damn. It would appear the article I had read claiming it to be a custom piece from Intel has disappeared. It does in fact look like everyone is now saying it is indeed made by AMD. But the fact it has 8 times the graphics power of the 360 looks good on paper, but how much of that will be for gaming vs. snap and the other graphics functions. Hmm...


----------



## Scar Symmetry

I think it looks pretty sweet. It takes away a little of the consumer power, but also gives you the consumer quite a lot of power. You can't have your cake AND eat it people, you have to make a choice.

Cutting edge entertainment doesn't come cheap, and why should it?


----------



## Mordacain

nothingleft09 said:


> Damn. It would appear the article I had read claiming it to be a custom piece from Intel has disappeared. It does in fact look like everyone is now saying it is indeed made by AMD. But the fact it has 8 times the graphics power of the 360 looks good on paper, but how much of that will be for gaming vs. snap and the other graphics functions. Hmm...



They should be able to devote all of it to gaming performance. Anything not being run currently wouldn't consume any of the CPU/GPU resources. Even if it's suspended, it would be held in ram in a suspended state until it gets flushed when the active program requests more memory.

With a game console, I seriously doubt that anything other than the basic user interface (the one you get on current systems when pressing the home or xbox button) is even held in ram, let alone left running as a process.

I mean, I could be wrong since this is just speculation, but I seriously doubt Microsoft would deviate too far from the excellent memory management system they have in Windows 7/8.

Sony...don't really know or have any thoughts on it since x86-64 hardware is rather new territory for them in terms of crafting an OS.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Also, Bonnie Ross is hot.


----------



## Nykur_Myrkvi

groverj3 said:


> I don't really care about the loss of backwards compatability... as it's been explained many times over why maintaining that is a waste of resources better spent elsewhere. *My 360 will still work*


My feelings exactly.

However, there are other things I don't like, e.g. the name.

Why not NXT Box? Stylized:

N
X-Box
T

Then you have "NextBox" as a name but you could use the NXT as an acronym. For what?

I don't know: "New X-Box Technology"? "Neo Xtreme Tech"? "Nude XXX Teachers"?


----------



## Entropy Prevails

XBox One? ....ing horrible! They ....ed up big time with this! 
I played the 360 for more than five years and I´m very content with it but what they just did was horrible! A console for television? What the hell is the point, there are things that do that already and they are cheaper. And all that Kinect crap is also unnecessary! But the worst thing is the used game block and the internet registering! Way to piss off people Microsoft!


----------



## flint757

Seriously, if you buy a used game from somewhere like Gamestop chances are it will come with a code. If I buy a used game that is the typical place I go to since I have an account there. 

Kinect may be unnecessary, but it too will probably come with the XBOX so it isn't an extra fee or anything. For all anyone knows it may be ....ing awesome to use for getting around the XBOX. Having 20 cables going to my TV is annoying, an eye sore and just more potential for something to go wrong. Wiring the DVR to an XBOX actually sounds like a cool idea. I imagine you don't HAVE to do it either. 

Honestly, if you mostly play on your own XBOX, mostly new games, used games only form official outlets and have internet you are probably not going to notice or be bothered by most of this shit. Even in the most hick areas around here there is some form of internet connection. You don't have to be logged on the entire time, just long enough for them to check in and then it can go off again. You could probably do that with dial up even. I'm logged in 24/7 to my internet and I bought Sony move for my PS3, it is all attached and not a huge deal. I haven't come across any videos of me wanking.


----------



## groverj3

flint757 said:


> Seriously, if you buy a used game from somewhere like Gamestop chances are it will come with a code. If I buy a used game that is the typical place I go to since I have an account there.
> 
> Kinect may be unnecessary, but it too will probably come with the XBOX so it isn't an extra fee or anything. For all anyone knows it may be ....ing awesome to use for getting around the XBOX. Having 20 cables going to my TV is annoying, an eye sore and just more potential for something to go wrong. Wiring the DVR to an XBOX actually sounds like a cool idea. I imagine you don't HAVE to do it either.
> 
> Honestly, if you mostly play on your own XBOX, mostly new games, used games only form official outlets and have internet you are probably not going to notice or be bothered by most of this shit. Even in the most hick areas around here there is some form of internet connection. You don't have to be logged on the entire time, just long enough for them to check in and then it can go off again. You could probably do that with dial up even. I'm logged in 24/7 to my internet and I bought Sony move for my PS3, it is all attached and not a huge deal. I haven't come across any videos of me wanking.


 
It's already been confirmed that Kinect comes with it. Not every game will require it, but you can always use the voice commands to change channels, games, etc. I actually think that's a great feature, especially because it comes with the system. Sounds like a good deal to me.

I do worry about the price though, since kinect is bundled.


----------



## goherpsNderp

the strange thing is that MS said if you don't want to use the kinect features you can disable it.... but it still hast to be connected and on..... for some reason... but they still decided to make it the central focus on the system...

lots of contradictions and unnecessary requirements. they talk about convenience to the user, yet entering a code just to use a game is a step BACKWARDS from what we've all become accustomed to. as far as passes are concerned, right now those are only for specific publishers and it's just to activate the online features of the game when you buy used- you can still play singleplayer. EA even announced they were doing away with the whole program citing negative consumer feedback.

so you basically have companies that are putting consumer ease and satisfaction above all else, and others that are putting publisher ease and satisfaction above the end user. we still don't know exactly how Sony will handle those same issues with PS4, but so far it's not looking good for the Xbone in that department.


----------



## Mordacain

goherpsNderp said:


> so you basically have companies that are putting consumer ease and satisfaction above all else, and others that are putting publisher ease and satisfaction above the end user. we still don't know exactly how Sony will handle those same issues with PS4, but so far it's not looking good for the Xbone in that department.



I don't think that's really the case. Each publisher is going to take steps to protect their own interests but they will always balance that with customer feedback. It will always be a balance between losing money due to 2nd hand sales / piracy and losing money due to losing customers due to draconian DRM / authorization codes, etc.

I don't see any of the companies pushing a customer-centric policy really. I just haven't heard Sony's stance on the matter yet.


----------



## Konfyouzd

If Sony gets rid of those weird floating triggers I might be tempted to check em out this time around.


----------



## goherpsNderp

Mordacain said:


> I don't think that's really the case. *Each publisher is going to take steps to protect their own interests* but they will always balance that with customer feedback. It will always be a balance between losing money due to 2nd hand sales / piracy and losing money due to losing customers due to draconian DRM / authorization codes, etc.
> 
> I don't see any of the companies pushing a customer-centric policy really. I just haven't heard Sony's stance on the matter yet.



While the bolded is true, with the Xbone it's enforced across the board. I don't agree with that method because it makes things unnecessarily complicated for users, it is counter-intuitive, and it serves only to protect the publisher and platform holder, with no clear benefit to the user at all. With the online passes we've seen this generation the consumer could at least (and did) make a choice to specifically not support publishers that enforced it, but in this situation if you either don't buy the console at all or do. No way to say to a specific publisher that you don't like it because it's at the system level.

As far as Sony, I can only go by the way they put a focus on ease to the end user with playing while download, instantaneous starting of content without waiting for loading and buffering, and even the ability to suspend the system while playing and resuming later on. So if their focus with basic system features are making things better for users, then I expect (even if it's blind faith) that they will (ie: should) follow through the same way with their content management policies. Vita is their most recent foray, so if you go by the way it works, you can play a borrowed game fine, but if you want to earn trophies for it you'll need to buy the game. I find that to be a more appropriate means of discouraging new copy sales without alienating the users.

It's entirely possible though that they'll do something similar to MS, or even worse, that a precedent has been set and they'll follow it. It's also possible they'll treat games the same way they have this generation, who knows. But strangely enough, Gamestop isn't worried about it and showed that something like 70% of their trade-ins go towards new games, so it's anyone's guess at this point as to weather or not it's going to be definitively good for the industry or bad. As an end user though my priority is just to protect myself and try and vote with my wallet.


----------



## axxessdenied

I'm phasing consoles out of my home and replacing them with a PC for the TV.


----------



## Matt_D_

nothingleft09 said:


> From what I've read, XB will be going with custom built CPU's. My main reason for not being into AMD is when I worked at a CP store we had a lot of problems with them. It's been a few years but it really turned me off to AMD in general. And like I said it was just from a personal experience with their product. But once again, it boils down to a personal preference. lol I haven't given the company a really good look in quite a while so I may do that again, seeing as how everything I own computer wise is either Intel i7 or Core2duo powered.



nah, its unlikely they'll be custom for cost reasons. both sony and ms are going with AMD for financial reasons, leaving behind the fabrication and cost issues of PPC / Custom cpus (remember the original cell yeild issues? and the issues with PPC fabrication units?). both will be reasonably low clock too. somewhere in the mid 1ghz's. at least going on released specs.

they're both effectively 8 core SOC type units as far as we know at this point. im sure ifixit will take one apart eventually.


----------



## RustInPeace

I'm not as tech knowledgeable as I used to be... 8 actual cores or 4 cores hyper-threaded?


----------



## groverj3

RustInPeace said:


> I'm not as tech knowledgeable as I used to be... 8 actual cores or 4 cores hyper-threaded?


 
I believe they'll be 8 physical cores. I could be wrong though. It's likely that one will be reserved for the OS(s) to eliminate lag when multi-tasking and switching programs, etc.

No confirmation on that, but that's what I would do.


----------



## groverj3

Matt_D_ said:


> nah, its unlikely they'll be custom for cost reasons. both sony and ms are going with AMD for financial reasons, leaving behind the fabrication and cost issues of PPC / Custom cpus (remember the original cell yeild issues? and the issues with PPC fabrication units?). both will be reasonably low clock too. somewhere in the mid 1ghz's. at least going on released specs.
> 
> they're both effectively 8 core SOC type units as far as we know at this point. im sure ifixit will take one apart eventually.


 
They're both essentially AMD Jaguars. Both are almost 100% stock, with some very minor changes. Sony is just admitting that it's mostly a stock chipset, and MS is claiming it's custom (which is not exactly false, but it's still mostly the same thing). The chip in the PS4 is very slightly more powerful, gfx-wise than the XB, but both are pretty equal in terms of computations. They're both so close that nobody is likely going to notice any performance differences when playing games. Benchmarks will show that the chip in the PS4 is more powerful, but benchmark speed is not the same as actual performance in a game/application.

The only significant difference hardware-wise is the RAM. Sony is using GDDR5 with no buffer, and MS is using DDR3 with ESRAM as a small buffer.

At first glance you might automatically assume that the GDDR5 wins, but using the buffer in addition to 8 GB of DDR3 changes things and makes it less of a direct comparison. Basically, actual performance is going to be very similar. Again, benchmarks are going to be the only place where one would see a difference.

It's pretty interesting to me, actually. There have never been two consoles in production at the same time that are so similar in terms of hardware. There have always been massive differences in construction/architecture until now. The PS3 had a pretty large advantage in tech, but squeezing out that performance was challenging for developers. What we're seeing now is that both companies are making their consoles developer friendly, and I think we're going to have better games as a result (on both systems).

Both consoles are going to be connected to cloud computing, so in the future their own hardware is going to become less important. When developers start utilizing remote servers for computations you can pretty much throw out the box's hardware specs. Then it jsut becomes a game of trying get the lowest latency internet connection you can find. People will complain about having to be online all the time, but it's going to lead to bigger, more detailed, maps, smarter AI, etc. Things like this might actually push telecom companies into improving infrastructure as well.


----------



## RustInPeace

Similar specs = easier ports = less production cost?


----------



## synrgy

^ = no change (or a raise) in price for us = more profits for them.


----------



## Konfyouzd

But why shouldn't they keep more money? They worked so hard? 

... And the same can't be said for anyone buying the product...


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Back when I was primarily a console gamer and people were just starting to whisper about the idea of an all-digital-download game market, I hated the idea. I thought it was stupid, and had no idea what I was going to do if and when that finally happened.

Aaaaaaand then I got a gaming PC and started using Steam, an all-digital-download gaming market. I can't buy used games. I can't resell games I bought. Turns out, _none_ of that bothers me even a little bit. Matter of fact, when I sit and think about it, there are only two things that are potentially problematic about it:

1) Depending on where you live and what internet options you have available to you, games can take _FOREVER_ to download. When I first got Skyrim (PC Collector's Edition), the disc it came with had no content on it, and just directed me to Steam and provided me with a download code. Servers were so bogged down, made worse by my already slow internet, that it took nearly six hours to download the entire thing. I practically could've driven to Chicago and back to buy a console copy of the game that would've played as soon as I put it in the machine (or ten minutes after, depending on day one patches, hahaha). That shit was ultrafrustrating.

2) It will make it either more difficult or more expensive to help out gamers less fortunate than myself. I'm fairly certain there are charities out there that people can donate their used games and consoles to so they can be distributed to poor families who don't have the disposable income for frivolities like games, and having game discs just provide you with locked content (on disc or downloadable) that needs a new bought-and-paid-for code to unlock each time you want to play it on a new console will hamper that severely. More personally, my sister's family has been struggling financially for years, and I've made a habit of letting my nephews and brother in law borrow my games so they can have fun playing games AND have money for silly things like food and rent. It'll be a shame for people to not be able to help eachother in similar ways because games are locked to one console.

Apart from those things, though, this all just seems like Steam but on a living room console, and since I'm fine with Steam, I wouldn't be able to complain too much about the new consoles.

I'm also not _too_ terribly bothered by the online requirement. I'm in the "I'm always online anyways, so I don't give a shit" camp, but I do understand why it would bother those who aren't so lucky. One example I've seen brought up that I've witnessed personally is servicemen deployed overseas. When I was deployed on ships in the Persian Gulf, it was commonplace for people to bring consoles with them on deployments and set them up in their berthing area lounges or occasionally the mess decks, and I assure you, there is _no_ internet available to connect consoles to in those situations. There are internet connections on ships, but they're very tightly controlled and suuuuuper shitty, speed-wise. They're more for signing in to a computer room to check email that takes 4 minutes per page to load, not so much for hooking up consoles to check in with their e-Wardens so they can play the newest Call of Battlefied: Ghost Dogs. Of course, there won't be anything to stop people on deployment from just sticking with previous console generations and still having a good time, it's just unfortunate that they won't have the same opportunity to enjoy current technology that others have.

EDIT: Another potential issue with all-digial-download consoles is that I sure hope Microsoft eventually releases Xbones with larger hard drives. 500GB _seems_ like alot, until you start buying a fair number of AAA-level humongous games. As I found out with what I THOUGHT was a decent sized drive in my gaming laptop, that shit fills up wit da quickness.


----------



## flint757

RustInPeace said:


> Similar specs = *easier ports* = less production cost?



I really hope porting gets better so lazy developers can make actual good ports to PC. I mean Crysis 1 had better graphics than Crysis 2 because why? It was designed for consoles and then just poorly ported over. Then you have games like Prototype where the controls for mouse and keyboard could be a lot better for the same reason.


----------



## axxessdenied

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Back when I was primarily a console gamer and people were just starting to whisper about the idea of an all-digital-download game market, I hated the idea. I thought it was stupid, and had no idea what I was going to do if and when that finally happened.
> 
> Aaaaaaand then I got a gaming PC and started using Steam, an all-digital-download gaming market. I can't buy used games. I can't resell games I bought. Turns out, _none_ of that bothers me even a little bit. Matter of fact, when I sit and think about it, there are only two things that are potentially problematic about it:
> 
> 1) Depending on where you live and what internet options you have available to you, games can take _FOREVER_ to download. When I first got Skyrim (PC Collector's Edition), the disc it came with had no content on it, and just directed me to Steam and provided me with a download code. Servers were so bogged down, made worse by my already slow internet, that it took nearly six hours to download the entire thing. I practically could've driven to Chicago and back to buy a console copy of the game that would've played as soon as I put it in the machine (or ten minutes after, depending on day one patches, hahaha). That shit was ultrafrustrating.
> 
> 2) It will make it either more difficult or more expensive to help out gamers less fortunate than myself. I'm fairly certain there are charities out there that people can donate their used games and consoles to so they can be distributed to poor families who don't have the disposable income for frivolities like games, and having game discs just provide you with locked content (on disc or downloadable) that needs a new bought-and-paid-for code to unlock each time you want to play it on a new console will hamper that severely. More personally, my sister's family has been struggling financially for years, and I've made a habit of letting my nephews and brother in law borrow my games so they can have fun playing games AND have money for silly things like food and rent. It'll be a shame for people to not be able to help eachother in similar ways because games are locked to one console.
> 
> Apart from those things, though, this all just seems like Steam but on a living room console, and since I'm fine with Steam, I wouldn't be able to complain too much about the new consoles.
> 
> I'm also not _too_ terribly bothered by the online requirement. I'm in the "I'm always online anyways, so I don't give a shit" camp, but I do understand why it would bother those who aren't so lucky. One example I've seen brought up that I've witnessed personally is servicemen deployed overseas. When I was deployed on ships in the Persian Gulf, it was commonplace for people to bring consoles with them on deployments and set them up in their berthing area lounges or occasionally the mess decks, and I assure you, there is _no_ internet available to connect consoles to in those situations. There are internet connections on ships, but they're very tightly controlled and suuuuuper shitty, speed-wise. They're more for signing in to a computer room to check email that takes 4 minutes per page to load, not so much for hooking up consoles to check in with their e-Wardens so they can play the newest Call of Battlefied: Ghost Dogs. Of course, there won't be anything to stop people on deployment from just sticking with previous console generations and still having a good time, it's just unfortunate that they won't have the same opportunity to enjoy current technology that others have.
> 
> EDIT: Another potential issue with all-digial-download consoles is that I sure hope Microsoft eventually releases Xbones with larger hard drives. 500GB _seems_ like alot, until you start buying a fair number of AAA-level humongous games. As I found out with what I THOUGHT was a decent sized drive in my gaming laptop, that shit fills up wit da quickness.



Yeah, people seem to forget that there is already an all-digital platform that is HUGELY successful and a big driving force behind PC game sales. Steam rocks, I love it. screw having hard copies of games and creating more waste / packaging that is simply unnecessary. 

And, the beauty of Steam is the Big Picture Mode now which gives it a console like UI for use on your TV


----------



## Konfyouzd

flint757 said:


> I really hope porting gets better so lazy developers can make actual good ports to PC. I mean Crysis 1 had better graphics than Crysis 2 because why? It was designed for consoles and then just poorly ported over. Then you have games like Prototype where the controls for mouse and keyboard could be a lot better for the same reason.


 
Similar issue arises going the other way. A lot of gamse that started as PC games have clunky ass controls on console... Hopefully it gets better on both ends...



axxessdenied said:


> Yeah, people seem to forget that there is already an all-digital platform that is HUGELY successful and a big driving force behind PC game sales. Steam rocks, I love it. screw having hard copies of games and creating more waste / packaging that is simply unnecessary.
> 
> And, the beauty of Steam is the Big Picture Mode now which gives it a console like UI for use on your TV


 
Hm...


----------



## flint757

Indeed, I just feel it only going one way given my dominant setup is on PC.


----------



## Konfyouzd

I definitely know exactly what you mean. As soon as you start playing some games you think... "This was definitely developed for PC," if you weren't previously aware... And--as I've now been made aware--vice versa.


----------



## groverj3

Yeah, after sitting back and thinking about the specs... the only negative I see is the hard drive. I think 500gb is too small for long-term success when you have to completely install games.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Yup... I annihilated 120 pretty quickly and I'm pushing my 250 now... 

I thought maybe I'd just downloaded too many games... No... The majority of the space was taken by game SAVES... But maybe some games save less efficiently than others... Not sure...


----------



## groverj3

Konfyouzd said:


> Yup... I annihilated 120 pretty quickly and I'm pushing my 250 now...
> 
> I thought maybe I'd just downloaded too many games... No... The majority of the space was taken by game SAVES... But maybe some games save less efficiently than others... Not sure...


 
Man, that's pretty intense!

Perhaps they've figured out some new compression wizardry to decrease the size of the textures and videos, etc.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Maybe... Hopefully...


----------



## zuzek

Gentlemen, I believe we are privilege to the birth of a true monstrosity:

Microsoft Applies For Patent on TV Achievements


----------



## flint757

Sounds a little bit like Get Glue.


----------



## Mordacain

axxessdenied said:


> Yeah, people seem to forget that there is already an all-digital platform that is HUGELY successful and a big driving force behind PC game sales. Steam rocks, I love it. screw having hard copies of games and creating more waste / packaging that is simply unnecessary.
> 
> And, the beauty of Steam is the Big Picture Mode now which gives it a console like UI for use on your TV



This is what fueled my last Media Center PC build. I call it that, but its true purpose is for Steam Big Picture.

I've played both Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite to completion on this rig and I used one of my Xbox360 controllers for both.

Granted, when I load up Dragon Age I reach for the wireless mouse and keyboard, but otherwise this has become my rig of choice.

I'm very psyched to see both PS4 and XB1 using similar architecture derived from PCs as this should end all of the lackluster ports we've endured over the last couple of hardware generations.


----------



## Mordacain

groverj3 said:


> Yeah, after sitting back and thinking about the specs... the only negative I see is the hard drive. I think 500gb is too small for long-term success when you have to completely install games.



I very nearly filled my old 120Gb console. However, it's really not a big deal to uninstall games once you've finished your main playthrough. On my 360, I've only left Halo Reach (and now 4) installed since those are the only games I really continue to play (for multiplayer and replays).

Actually, I leave games installed until I need to reclaim space, but it's not difficult to decide what to uninstall. 

Figure going forward, console games will have a similar foot print to current-gen PC titles, so around 10-25Gb per title. That's really not too bad when you think about it. Does anyone really cycle between 20 games that they are actively playing at any given point in time? And if you ever want to replay a title, you have a 20 minute install to sit through... not a big deal to me.


----------



## axxessdenied

Mordacain said:


> This is what fueled my last Media Center PC build. I call it that, but its true purpose is for Steam Big Picture.
> 
> I've played both Tomb Raider and Bioshock Infinite to completion on this rig and I used one of my Xbox360 controllers for both.
> 
> Granted, when I load up Dragon Age I reach for the wireless mouse and keyboard, but otherwise this has become my rig of choice.
> 
> I'm very psyched to see both PS4 and XB1 using similar architecture derived from PCs as this should end all of the lackluster ports we've endured over the last couple of hardware generations.



And the added bonus of SteamCloud, never lose your save games!


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Mordacain said:


> Figure going forward, console games will have a similar foot print to current-gen PC titles, so around 10-25Gb per title. That's really not too bad when you think about it. Does anyone really cycle between 20 games that they are actively playing at any given point in time? And if you ever want to replay a title, you have a 20 minute install to sit through... not a big deal to me.




You have to consider what Konfyouzd mentioned above, too: save files. They probably aren't a big deal for many games, but save files on the last few Bethesda open world games are in 1GB per save territory .

I have had to uninstall like half my games recently when I realized how close I was coming to filling my drive, haha. I wonder if the Xbone will have that option, or if you'll need a new paid-for code every time you want to re-install it on your own machine.


----------



## Chickenhawk

*cough*

Xbox One reveal in under two minutes. [VIDEO]


----------



## Matt_D_

groverj3 said:


> Both consoles are going to be connected to cloud computing, so in the future their own hardware is going to become less important. When developers start utilizing remote servers for computations you can pretty much throw out the box's hardware specs. Then it jsut becomes a game of trying get the lowest latency internet connection you can find. People will complain about having to be online all the time, but it's going to lead to bigger, more detailed, maps, smarter AI, etc. Things like this might actually push telecom companies into improving infrastructure as well.



"cloud" isnt going to work for games. ever. waaaay too low latency needed. my entire budget for the entire UI system in burnout paradise was 2ms. no internet connection that obeys the laws of physics will ever get you the performance needed for "cloud" computing. 

its just marketing fluff for anything that needs low latency processing. where cloud computing does get used for games are these things called "servers"  they dont really help out much for local processing


----------



## Radau

Starting to think I should just switch to PC!


----------



## Mordacain

Grand Moff Tim said:


> You have to consider what Konfyouzd mentioned above, too: save files. They probably aren't a big deal for many games, but save files on the last few Bethesda open world games are in 1GB per save territory .
> 
> I have had to uninstall like half my games recently when I realized how close I was coming to filling my drive, haha. I wonder if the Xbone will have that option, or if you'll need a new paid-for code every time you want to re-install it on your own machine.



The way current Xbox-Live DLC add-ons works is that it's tied to your account; you can download stuff as often as you want.

I didn't realize Skyrim was using save files in that size. My entire PC game saves directory is onlt about 3 Gb and that's going back 5 years worth of different Dragon Age playthroughs (about 11 total) as well as all of my different Mass Effect playthroughs. I mention those as they are the largest ones I have. I think Dragon Age is just over a gig. Most of those however are from the default screen captures that take place periodically at pivotal moments of story. I wonder if Skyrim does something similar. Anyway...game saves on my Xbox360 haven't even approached a gig in total size and there are something like 30 different titles saved there. PS3 is probably about the same.

At this juncture, the only reason I've noticed some PC game save files being larger is because of screencaps, which can be disabled. I doubt consoles will leave that sort of setting enabled without an easy way of sharing /archiving the screencaps.


----------



## Mordacain

Radau said:


> Starting to think I should just switch to PC!



I've definitely enjoyed having it as my main rig. I've saved quite a bit of money buying games as well. I stock up on the previous games I missed and some new stuff I haven't heard of during steam sales and play those throughout the year.

The only new titles I've bought on release day were the titles I was really excited about: Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, Halo Reach, Halo 4, Uncharted 3(sadly the only PS game series exclusive I really enjoyed), Skyrim (360, before I switched back to PCs fulltime) are the only release-day titles I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## habicore_5150

After all of the news has come out about the new Xbox, Microsoft is starting to become really sensitive. It's hilarious beyond any comprehension
Microsoft Disables Comments For Xbox One Videos Following Harsh Criticisms


----------



## BrainArt

For those of you who haven't seen this yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmk38i1yaZs&feature=youtube_gdata_player



I'm going to get one, since the guys I game with 99.99% of the time play Xboxes almost exclusively. 

Keep up the hate, though, that should mean I'll be able to afford it when it comes out.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

^they word it "It's not always online, but it does require an Internet connection." 

No thanks.


----------



## habicore_5150

Sickening...

DailyTech - Microsoft "Hopes" Developers Will Make Xbox One Games Unplayable Offline


----------



## flint757

Reading through these XBOX articles has only shown me just how paranoid gamer's are.  It's amusing. I read a lot of ad-lib by that author. I'm interested in hearing more official reports, but those probably won't happen until release day gets a lot closer.


----------



## Johnson_LACS

Still, not gonna buy it.
But, waiting for PS4.


----------



## Joseph Kimbrell

MaxOfMetal said:


> Based on the link provided in the OP, I don't know what to think.
> 
> 
> I'll probably buy one when my current 360 kicks the bucket again. I just hope these are a little more resilient out of the box. I'm already getting RRoD nightmares.



LOL agreed. I don't think there's ever been a more failure-prone system released, has there? Well, maybe the NES version 1.


----------



## Sepultorture

wow this is the first time i have ever been drawn to the PS4 more than the xbox, i can't beleive i'm saying this but when my xbox is beyond the new game limit and they stop doing games for the 360, i will for sure jump on the PS4

unless Microcrap finally pulls head from ass and realize this is a stupid move


----------



## habicore_5150

Xbox One could replace Nielson ratings, allowing Microsoft to sell KPIs to advertisers | The Slanted


----------



## flint757

As for the advertising bit that is actually a good idea. Granted it already exists, but not a bad idea for both the consumer and marketplace.

As for the camera bit that was a WHOLE lot of speculation.  They took the camera being connected 24/7 and this 'getglue' patent and drew all sorts of baseless claims. The patent they applied for didn't sound like big brother to me, but whatever.

I'll say it again, gamers are the most paranoid bunch of people you'll ever meet. I feel stupid defending M$ too because I don't agree with some of their design 'flaws' and I hate consoles for the most part, but the rumor mill as it passes down the telephone line seems to slowly be preached as fact rather than hearsay which is all it is.

Last thing I'll say is you can opt out of using that feature I guarantee it otherwise it'd be a huge violation of privacy.


----------



## Mordacain

Joseph Kimbrell said:


> LOL agreed. I don't think there's ever been a more failure-prone system released, has there? Well, maybe the NES version 1.



You gents clearly never worked in warranty fulfillment in a retail market. The original runs of both the PS1 and PS2 were majorly fault prone as well, as was the original Dreamcast, SegaCD and 3DO. Granted most of those issues had to do with faulty optical drives so the issues were never as obvious as a bricked system since the drives would sometimes work and sometimes not.

I actually think Microsoft handled the RROD issues quite well seeing as how Sony never extended their warranties and had sizable fault returns as well on all of the first manufacturing run versions of all of their systems.

As an aside, most manufacturers make quiet (read: unpublicized) changes to their hardware during the manufacturing lifecycle, correcting design problems while streamlining the manufacturing process to cut costs. Usually the only way to tell the changes is by looking at the mainboard itself (unless it's the mid-cycle total hardware redesign most manufacturers make).


----------



## Joseph Kimbrell

Mordacain said:


> You gents clearly never worked in warranty fulfillment in a retail market. The original runs of both the PS1 and PS2 were majorly fault prone as well, as was the original Dreamcast, SegaCD and 3DO. Granted most of those issues had to do with faulty optical drives so the issues were never as obvious as a bricked system since the drives would sometimes work and sometimes not.
> 
> I actually think Microsoft handled the RROD issues quite well seeing as how Sony never extended their warranties and had sizable fault returns as well on all of the first manufacturing run versions of all of their systems.
> 
> As an aside, most manufacturers make quiet (read: unpublicized) changes to their hardware during the manufacturing lifecycle, correcting design problems while streamlining the manufacturing process to cut costs. Usually the only way to tell the changes is by looking at the mainboard itself (unless it's the mid-cycle total hardware redesign most manufacturers make).



No I certainly haven't Mordacain! I guess there's always a lot more going on behind the scenes than one expects. My PS1 optical drive did stop working actually.

BTW, nice location. I'm from Charleston!


----------



## Curt

I won't buy a new console until both Sony and Microsoft have everything set in stone, and I can reasearch both with more facts, and evidence. With less rumors and half-truths like I am seeing now.


----------



## jonajon91

I think that this 'new' generation of console would have benefited greatly by waiting another 2 years. Seriously, I am quite content with the 360 and I can see myself still playing borderlands 2 and cod 4 for ages before I fold and buy a new console or gaming PC ... who am I kidding, it will be a gaming PC.


----------



## thedonal

jonajon91 said:


> I think that this 'new' generation of console would have benefited greatly by waiting another 2 years. Seriously, I am quite content with the 360 and I can see myself still playing borderlands 2 and cod 4 for ages before I fold and buy a new console or gaming PC ... who am I kidding, it will be a gaming PC.



That's a fair comment. The current machines seem to have had quite a good lifetime though so far. And yes- PC is the way I think I'll be going for games...


----------



## flint757

This cycle was already its longest one and graphics wise they were falling several years behind. Waiting 2 more years they'd be WAY behind. Chances are you'll get another years worth of new games for PS3 and XBOX 360. They don't usually immediately kill production.


----------



## texshred777

flint757 said:


> This cycle was already its longest one and graphics wise they were falling several years behind. Waiting 2 more years they'd be WAY behind. Chances are you'll get another years worth of new games for PS3 and XBOX 360. They don't usually immediately kill production.


 
Particularly not Sony. How long after the PS3 came out did they continue making games for the PS2? If I remember correctly the production for Xbox games stopped pretty soon after the 360 came out. 

The graphics for current gen consoles are getting further behind PC, but I still think they're quite good. I'll be happy with my 360 for a couple years. 

With that said, I'll probably just go PC this next cycle. Slightly higher up front cost, but longer life cycle and upgradability when needed. Not to mention, the games I tend to go for are much better on PC.


----------



## vampiregenocide

There is definitely a lot of shady shit regarding the technology and ideology of the Xbox One. I've not read any of this thread, so I apologise if this has been brought up, but enough information has been available for people to actually get an idea of how powerful both consoles are in comparison. Apparently the Xbox One uses up a shitload of processing power purely on the three operating systems it uses to switch between TV and gaming etc fluidly. The PS4 has been estimated to be 50% more powerful as a result, partly due to the fact the processing power needed for its operating system is a lot more minimal.

I completely understand that MS wanted the Xbox to be a complete home entertainment system, as they've been saying that's been their aim forever. But it feels like they've missed the point. Who needs to swap between internet, films and games instantly? Who is that fickle? You don't need to waste time engineering a console to do that. As for forcing the Kinect use on people, that's a stupid idea. It should be optional.

If MS don't clear up the concerns with the console such as invasion of privacy via the Kinect, then I will not be buying it. Seems like Sony have built a better console and are more with the times.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth

^this.

But how will I play Halo?


----------



## flint757

texshred777 said:


> Particularly not Sony. How long after the PS3 came out did they continue making games for the PS2? If I remember correctly the production for Xbox games stopped pretty soon after the 360 came out.
> 
> The graphics for current gen consoles are getting further behind PC, but I still think they're quite good. I'll be happy with my 360 for a couple years.
> 
> With that said, I'll probably just go PC this next cycle. Slightly higher up front cost, but longer life cycle and upgradability when needed. Not to mention, the games I tend to go for are much better on PC.



They actually released some games all the way up through 2012 for the PS2, albeit probably not major titles or anything. I don't remember when I noticed a complete shift, but it was definitely not immediate as I never upgrade to anything right away and I didn't feel it in any noticeable way. It does appear that Microsoft and nintendo were a bit more abrupt though.



vampiregenocide said:


> There is definitely a lot of shady shit regarding the technology and ideology of the Xbox One. I've not read any of this thread, so I apologise if this has been brought up, but enough information has been available for people to actually get an idea of how powerful both consoles are in comparison. Apparently the Xbox One uses up a shitload of processing power purely on the three operating systems it uses to switch between TV and gaming etc fluidly. The PS4 has been estimated to be 50% more powerful as a result, partly due to the fact the processing power needed for its operating system is a lot more minimal.
> 
> I completely understand that MS wanted the Xbox to be a complete home entertainment system, as they've been saying that's been their aim forever. But it feels like they've missed the point. Who needs to swap between internet, films and games instantly? Who is that fickle? You don't need to waste time engineering a console to do that. As for forcing the Kinect use on people, that's a stupid idea. It should be optional.
> 
> If MS don't clear up the concerns with the console such as invasion of privacy via the Kinect, then I will not be buying it. Seems like Sony have built a better console and are more with the times.



I would only like to point out that all of the 'news' (well a lot of it) has been a lot of hearsay, speculation and exaggerations based on minor details/facts.

I agree that IF the XBOX backgrounds everything it would definitely be dumb though. However, I have a feeling that has not been confirmed given your use of the word estimate. If the kinect doesn't raise the cost I don't see the harm. If it cost $50 more to buy and you have no choice then I'd say it's a genuine reason to gripe.

It may be in their best interest to counter the privacy claims, but honestly there is little to no evidence supporting these claims beyond pure paranoia to begin with. DirecTV was talking about a similar thing awhile back and the PS3 and 360 both have similar potential 'privacy' issue with their consoles right now with the kinect and move yet somehow everyone is acting like this is all new somehow. It is odd that it needs to be connected, but I'd be willing to bet you can disconnect streaming. It sounds less like an attempt to violate privacy and more like an attempt to push people in a certain direction. Since people lean towards the familiar their approach lately seems to make things less optional so people grow used to the design. That's a genuine bitch with Microsoft for sure, but it is easy to see where that mindset stems from. They certainly could be true, but the patent and design lend credence to yet another exaggeration.


----------



## Mordacain

vampiregenocide said:


> There is definitely a lot of shady shit regarding the technology and ideology of the Xbox One. I've not read any of this thread, so I apologise if this has been brought up, but enough information has been available for people to actually get an idea of how powerful both consoles are in comparison. Apparently the Xbox One uses up a shitload of processing power purely on the three operating systems it uses to switch between TV and gaming etc fluidly. The PS4 has been estimated to be 50% more powerful as a result, partly due to the fact the processing power needed for its operating system is a lot more minimal.
> 
> I completely understand that MS wanted the Xbox to be a complete home entertainment system, as they've been saying that's been their aim forever. But it feels like they've missed the point. Who needs to swap between internet, films and games instantly? Who is that fickle? You don't need to waste time engineering a console to do that. As for forcing the Kinect use on people, that's a stupid idea. It should be optional.
> 
> If MS don't clear up the concerns with the console such as invasion of privacy via the Kinect, then I will not be buying it. Seems like Sony have built a better console and are more with the times.



This whole resource management issue is purely speculation on the part of the gaming press from what I've read. Granted, since Microsoft has been so tight-lipped about the XB1, they left the door wide-open for speculation.

Anyone who knows anything about operating systems know you can have multiple processes held in any state, either running or not. Switching between the multiple processes takes next to no CPU and only as much memory as the application (process) requires. 

I seriously doubt Microsoft would cripple their game console with such poor resource management. This is particularly ludicrous when Windows 8 can have all of the supposed resource-hog processes (film, tv) running on a simple tablet (with less powerful hardware resources) and be able to switch instantly.

I mean, Microsoft could be that stupid, but given their OS experience and how portable and resource efficient Windows 8 is, I seriously doubt it.


----------



## vampiregenocide

Captain Shoggoth said:


> ^this.
> 
> But how will I play Halo?



A concern of mine also.  If I do get an Xbox One, it will mostly be for that.



flint757 said:


> I would only like to point out that all of the 'news' (well a lot of it) has been a lot of hearsay, speculation and exaggerations based on minor details/facts.
> 
> I agree that IF the XBOX backgrounds everything it would definitely be dumb though. However, I have a feeling that has not been confirmed given your use of the word estimate. If the kinect doesn't raise the cost I don't see the harm. If it cost $50 more to buy and you have no choice then I'd say it's a genuine reason to gripe.
> 
> It may be in their best interest to counter the privacy claims, but honestly there is little to no evidence supporting these claims beyond pure paranoia to begin with. DirecTV was talking about a similar thing awhile back and the PS3 and 360 both have similar potential 'privacy' issue with their consoles right now with the kinect and move yet somehow everyone is acting like this is all new somehow. It is odd that it needs to be connected, but I'd be willing to bet you can disconnect streaming. It sounds less like an attempt to violate privacy and more like an attempt to push people in a certain direction. Since people lean towards the familiar their approach lately seems to make things less optional so people grow used to the design. That's a genuine bitch with Microsoft for sure, but it is easy to see where that mindset stems from. They certainly could be true, but the patent and design lend credence to yet another exaggeration.



It just seems like a real issue security wise. I don't like the idea of having it in my home knowing there are technologically savvy people out there who can take advantage of such things. Maybe I'm being paranoid, it MS doesn't seem to have been actively refuting the claims about the Kinect. Least not that I've seen. I know if I were one of the top peoples in MS, I'd want to set the record straight.



Mordacain said:


> This whole resource management issue is purely speculation on the part of the gaming press from what I've read. Granted, since Microsoft has been so tight-lipped about the XB1, they left the door wide-open for speculation.
> 
> Anyone who knows anything about operating systems know you can have multiple processes held in any state, either running or not. Switching between the multiple processes takes next to no CPU and only as much memory as the application (process) requires.
> 
> I seriously doubt Microsoft would cripple their game console with such poor resource management. This is particularly ludicrous when Windows 8 can have all of the supposed resource-hog processes (film, tv) running on a simple tablet (with less powerful hardware resources) and be able to switch instantly.
> 
> I mean, Microsoft could be that stupid, but given their OS experience and how portable and resource efficient Windows 8 is, I seriously doubt it.



You might well be right man. I'm not very technologically knowledgeable but what I've read seemed fairly well researched. Like I said though, they're just estimations. I'll wait till I see the console being properly used before I pass judgement.


----------



## texshred777

IF I wanted an Xbox1, I wouldn't care about the Kinect thing. I have no desire for a Kinect, still don't have one with my 360, but if it's part of the platform then fair enough. 

I don't see it happening for me, but I don't think it's a big deal. That's the direction MS wants to go, so either do it or go to a different platform and speak with your money.


----------



## flint757

vampiregenocide said:


> It just seems like a real issue security wise. I don't like the idea of having it in my home knowing there are technologically savvy people out there who can take advantage of such things. Maybe I'm being paranoid, it MS doesn't seem to have been actively refuting the claims about the Kinect. Least not that I've seen. I know if I were one of the top peoples in MS, I'd want to set the record straight.



They'd be doing so every five minutes though and setting the record straight could very well interfere with current/future design proposals. It's not in their interest to bother honestly. They could wait until the week before release and as long as they set the record straight before release day people will line up for the purchase.


----------



## flint757

> 1: Supported television tuner or cable/satellite set top box with HDMI output and HDMI cable required (all sold separately).
> 2: Xbox One system software uses a significant amount of storage; less internal storage will be available to users. 500 GB = 500 billion bytes.
> Features and requirements are under development and may change prior to release. Available features and content may vary by country. Broadband internet (ISP fees apply) and advanced TV hardware required. Games sold separately.



This is the disclaimer on Amazon's pre-order page. The part about the hard drive was amusing. So you start out with essentially 487GB, give or take, and the OS uses a significant amount of storage. If people own a shit ton of games an external hard drive might be practically mandatory. 

On my PC, including only games, it takes up roughly 750GB so I can only imagine.  I'm curious how long the disc install process takes too. If it doesn't take long then it might not be a huge issue, but...then there is the issue of a failed hard drive which I believe someone posted awhile back that they aren't liable for or something to that effect. Which is an issue because installing/uninstalling is a lot of disk writing and hard drives can only take so much stress before saying .... it.


----------



## Sicarius

They made it a point to made sure everyone notices the USB 3.0 ports on the front for use with external hard drives during their conference.


----------



## skisgaar

You could have prevented this...

Komm, susser Tod [With Lyrics] - The End of Evangelion OST -11- (HQ) vs. Xbox One Reveal 2013 Highlights by VJ Ann O'Nymous | YouTube Doubler | Mashup Helper


----------



## Sicarius

This is what I see happening:

Microsoft's E3 conference is going to put everyone's worries to bed, and then all the bros and reporters are going to be shitting themselves about how awesome the new XBone is going to be.

Just like they did for the PS4 when the Xbone was announced.


----------



## Jonathan20022

^ That's pretty hopeful, considering most of these titles being announced look very bland and unoriginal. 

I've told most of my friends this, but the Xbox One is going to need it's Third Party Support in order to persevere. The only things people are waiting on at this point, are a price, a release date, confirmation on DRM/Used Games, and a clear definition of what needing a connection means. It doesn't look that good to me and many others, even the friends who game with COD primarily finally see that they aren't going to invest hundreds into a console just to play a new COD every year. It's doubtful most publishers will even move from this generation to the next this early on, I expect the Xbox One to struggle because of this for months before it picks up. It will pick up, but not at launch no one's shit themselves for these announcements in awhile.

Remember this?


Games are what get people moving, and that's what I feel Sony did right. They not only showed the regular bracket of games, Racing/FPS/RPG/Sport, they showed some titles that feel like nothing you've ever played before. Something new that would be interesting to play and experience, and that would make people want to invest in order to experience something not only better but new.

The games that got me very excited was Watch Dogs, Knack, The Witcher 3, The Witness, Deep Down (But waiting on gameplay), and Destiny I am excited for but it's an FPS so I'm not holding my breath for something unique and new.

But that's the point, the focus on titles that show off a new experience was amazing. Not all the games I listed have these new experiences, but most of the people that saw the PS4 Announcement were very into it and some showed concern over the console but when gameplay was shown they were excited at least.


----------



## Sicarius

Except that a lot of people were pissed off at Sony because they didn't show hardware, that it was too long, and a plethora of other stupid little issues.

Microsoft said this was only for hardware, and that any games would be announced at E3. That's what they did, the majority of the games you listed are going to be on the XBone and the PS4, so there wasn't a need to talk about them again. EA announced their new engine and the games that'll be available for launch on both systems.

Games were talked about, just not the ones people wanted to know about.

Interest in the console has over shadowed Sony's pre-conference. Think about it, while everyone is saying Sony got it right, there are more and more rumors and speculation about the XBone, than the PS4. This is probably what Microsoft wanted from the start. 

Everyone is talking about the new Xbox.

I'm not even going to buy the damn thing and I'm talking about it.


----------



## Choop

Sicarius said:


> Except that a lot of people were pissed off at Sony because they didn't show hardware, that it was too long, and a plethora of other stupid little issues.
> 
> Microsoft said this was only for hardware, and that any games would be announced at E3. That's what they did, the majority of the games you listed are going to be on the XBone and the PS4, so there wasn't a need to talk about them again. EA announced their new engine and the games that'll be available for launch on both systems.
> 
> Games were talked about, just not the ones people wanted to know about.



I still feel like they could have talked more about how the hardware related to gaming, and how it'd make playing games on the Xbone so much more awesome than it already was on the 360 (not my opinion, but could easily have been a good angle to come from). 

Probably the best thing they mentioned involving gaming was the dedicated server thing for online multiplayer, but even then the games are going to have to be worth playing and the system worth buying for that to matter. Honestly I just don't really understand their marketing standpoint personally...trying to hook more gamers with TV crap? Sports...stuff?

Also lol call of duty and ea sports games were talked about. a;lsdkfjas;ldfk. If their exclusives are super awesome (and they'll need to be), it may be a redeeming quality somewhat.


----------



## asher

I mean, how much can they say about it really though? "Our new hardware is better and faster than last generation, so things will be faster and shinier!"

Isn't that just kind of assumed?


----------



## Sicarius

Choop said:


> I still feel like they could have talked more about how the hardware related to gaming, and how it'd make playing games on the Xbone so much more awesome than it already was on the 360 (not my opinion, but could easily have been a good angle to come from).
> 
> Probably the best thing they mentioned involving gaming was the dedicated server thing for online multiplayer, but even then the games are going to have to be worth playing and the system worth buying for that to matter. Honestly I just don't really understand their marketing standpoint personally...trying to hook more gamers with TV crap? Sports...stuff?
> 
> Also lol call of duty and ea sports games were talked about. a;lsdkfjas;ldfk. If their exclusives are super awesome (and they'll need to be), it may be a redeeming quality somewhat.



To answer your post in as few words as possible:


E3.

To expand on that:
Why spoil E3 with talking up gaming at a hardware announcement? Doesn't make sense.

Look at it this way, "We're still going to do games, we've always done games. Look here's a bunch of EA Sports games, and look CoD Ghosts! But this is what we can do on top of playing games."

Sony's big goal for the PS3 was an all in one entertainment Box. Games, Movies, TV, Music the whole shebang. While sure you can do all that, look what Microsoft was able to do with the XBOne. It's actually pretty impressive what they've managed to create.

So, while speculation and rumors and hearsay are rampant, I'm going to patiently wait for Monday and see what else they've got under their sleeves. Because there's no point in getting worked up and paranoid over a camera or somehow the console getting hacked and Kinect being used to spy on you. It's just unneeded stress, imo.


----------



## flint757

The gaming aspect will be fine. Better, newer, faster, better load times etc. which is a given. They are focusing on other things because publishers will advertise their own games and since it is a given that all new gaming hardware will be better they focused on the add-ons and whatnot instead. The only games they need to promote are exclusives honestly. Marketing has always been Microsoft's weakest link though.


----------



## Sicarius

To be fair, Blizzard's Marketing dept is a hard act to follow.

I was sold on Cata just by the ads alone.


----------



## Jonathan20022

That's not my point, there is no positive hype surrounding the Xbox One. That's my point, and why I showed the video of the famous Nintendo conference revealing Twilight Princess. That's my expectation of an announcement, I want to get excited and look forward to something. My point of *some* of those games being on both consoles doesn't matter, they weren't shown in Xbox's conference. Because not everyone saw the PS4 conference or might not know, and wether it be ignorance of a fanboy or just not knowing it was happening. That excuse doesn't matter, as of now the PS4 Conference was MUCH better than the Xbox One Conference.

And they spoke about the hardware for a solid 20-30 minutes in the Sony Conference, the only thing they didn't reveal was a picture of the console? Is that even a factor for people when they buy a console? Does it match the drapes? The spoke about the processor and all the hardware's abilities in depth even showing renders and demonstrations that displayed it's power. We know it's an X86 AMD Processor using 8 Cores, we know that there's 8gbs of GDDR5 RAM.

Sony's conference took it one step further, so no one can be frustrated that people aren't hyped or are talking shit about the Xbox when it had none of those qualities in it's presentation.

They accepted that when they just showed a device that does what most devices in your home currently already do. All in One? That's existed and it's been Sony's focus ever since the PS2, and it's been pulled off amazingly with the PS3 and even their Blu Ray Player does what the Xbox One offers media wise.

I know this because I was a Sony Salesman over the holidays to make a little extra money, The Blu Ray Player we offered for sale offers Television, Blu Ray Video, Streaming, Music, Videos, Apps it just doesn't game because that's what the PS3 does and has done.

They didn't impress me, and the PS4 Announcement overshadowed the Xbox One's very much. They should have shown everything in the reveal that mattered to their entire consumer base, instead of focusing on Media alone.


----------



## Sicarius

It's pretty clear you're a PS fan, and that's cool, me, too. 

All I'm saying is that I'm sure a lot of answers will come out on Monday, that's all. Not trying to ruffle any feathers.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Sicarius said:


> It's pretty clear you're a PS fan, and that's cool, me, too.
> 
> All I'm saying is that I'm sure a lot of answers will come out on Monday, that's all. Not trying to ruffle any feathers.



Yeah for sure, and I'm not really a "Fan" or lean towards a certain console haha. I always owned an Xbox 360 replaced it with the Gears of War Elite, and I got a PS3 over time, and then bought a Red Limited Edition Wii.

I love all 3, but I have to admit I only played Bethseda games on the 360. Once I found out some saves are compatible with the PC versions of the games I immediately loaded them up and haven't looked back haha.

I just really like it when games give me a new experience, not like a gimmicky feature. But I even loved playing Mercury on the PSP when that came out, because it felt like an interesting new thing to play.


----------



## Sicarius

and that's why we wait for E3, to see the games. lol


----------



## Choop

flint757 said:


> The gaming aspect will be fine. Better, newer, faster, better load times etc. which is a given. They are focusing on other things because publishers will advertise their own games and since it is a given that all new gaming hardware will be better they focused on the add-ons and whatnot instead. The only games they need to promote are exclusives honestly. Marketing has always been Microsoft's weakest link though.



It will have better load times due to having to *cough* download your games onto the console itself, which is one of the more controversial issues about the system. I guess what I mean to say is that I realize they are focusing on other things like multimedia, but the additional stuff just seems so underwhelming and frankly kind of lame. If I were primarily a console gamer, I'd be most excited about the dedicated servers for xbox live because that will dramatically affect online play, but even then the exclusives will have to be really good to make that matter much.

Kenji hit it on the head really..Sony revealed plenty of information about the console as well as info on actual new games that aren't EA sports or Call of Duty refreshes. I'd really prefer something that freshens up the gaming experience, and isn't just a little gimmick like, "oh hey now you can yell at the xbox and switch to cable because we know gamers are lazy and love tv probably!"


----------



## flint757

I like things being all in one. Less cables and mess. It being loaded on the box is the only way for load time to go faster as discs are just too slow. If I understand correctly Sony is actually going to be doing something similar as well. They're targeting the group that can afford to buy honestly. As for the shape of the box, while not an all or nothing factor, it holds some importance. The last gen went for 'cool' shapes and shit and the PS4 is probably going to follow suit. That's nice and all, but it is a PITA to keep with my other stuff for something to just look 'cool'. It looking more like a set top box is better IMO.

If you know gaming will be relatively the same does it really matter if they make it 'seem' more exciting than it actually will be? Frankly we are getting to a point where consoles will likely be obsolete in the next decade. If they don't express some relevance outside of just video games they risk fading away into obscurity. The PS3 sold so well in the beginning because it was an affordable Blu Ray player not because it was an awesome gaming console (although I'm sure that was a factor).


----------



## Mordacain

Choop said:


> It will have better load times due to having to *cough* download your games onto the console itself, which is one of the more controversial issues about the system.



The "controversy" on this feature is just plain stupid as far as I am concerned. The PS3 has required a fair portion of it's games be installed before they will even play and folks have adapted to that.

PC games have required games be installed (with few exceptions) for decades.

I seriously have a hard time picturing all the rage about this..." OMG you mean I have to wait 10 minutes to play this game!?!?! F this, I'm going Sony." Which is comical, as Sony will probably still have you install the game as well, same as they have with the PS3.

Hell, I've installed every 360 game I play ever since they enabled the feature via firmware (dashboard) update years ago. You sacrifice 5-15 minutes once to have better load times (Halo 3 exempted for some weird reason) as long as you have it installed.

Damn guys, go make a sandwich / get a beer while the game is installing.


----------



## Choop

Mordacain said:


> The "controversy" on this feature is just plain stupid as far as I am concerned. The PS3 has required a fair portion of it's games be installed before they will even play and folks have adapted to that.
> 
> PC games have required games be installed (with few exceptions) for decades.
> 
> I seriously have a hard time picturing all the rage about this..." OMG you mean I have to wait 10 minutes to play this game!?!?! F this, I'm going Sony." Which is comical, as Sony will probably still have you install the game, same as they have with the PS3.
> 
> Hell, I've installed every 360 game ever since they enabled the feature via firmware (dashboard) update years ago. You sacrifice 5-15 minutes once to have better load times as long as you have it installed.
> 
> Damn guys, go make a sandwich / get a beer while the game is installing.



With the ps3 it's not the same though and you know it. You can take a game to a friend's place and play it without having to pay a fee or really without any DRM restrictions. It's not about the wait times.


----------



## Choop

flint757 said:


> If you know gaming will be relatively the same does it really matter if they make it 'seem' more exciting than it actually will be



It kind of does matter if they wish to appeal to the right audiences and make a good first impression. Showing what the system is capable of brings hype. Better graphics is nice but even like showing maybe using the kinect in an actually interesting way would have been cool, since it's required for the system to operate, and because the first was kind of a gimmicky piece of garbage.

Also, I apologize for double-posting. :< I'm not a fanboy of either console, and tbh I really liked me some xbox games, but I'm just stating my opinion on the reveal conference..IMO it was underwhelming and kind of baffling.


----------



## Mordacain

Choop said:


> With the ps3 it's not the same though and you know it. You can take a game to a friend's place and play it without having to pay a fee or really without any DRM restrictions. It's not about the wait times.



Which is not going to be affected. The game is tied to your Xbox Live account, as long as you are logged in, the game works...which Microsoft has already clarified.

What you can't do is leave your game at your friend's house for him to play under his Xbox Live account without paying for it.

Giving the whining that ensued when I tried to reclaim my copy of Halo 4 from my buddy, I'm not sure this is such a bad thing 

/EDIT - also, there are still DRM restrictions on PS3 games (perhaps just not on one's you've played). Dragon Age Origins / 2 for instance, requires the Bioware account be logged into the system, regardless of the system. So, some current games don't have DRM restricted access, while some do.


----------



## Choop

Mordacain said:


> Which is not going to be affected. The game is tied to your Xbox Live account, as long as you are logged in, the game works...which Microsoft has already clarified.
> 
> What you can't do is leave your game at your friend's house for him to play under his Xbox Live account without paying for it.
> 
> Giving the whining that ensued when I tried to reclaim my copy of Halo 4 from my buddy, I'm not sure this is such a bad thing
> 
> also, there are still DRM restrictions on PS3 games (perhaps just not on one's you've played). Dragon Age Origins / 2 for instance, requires the Bioware account be logged into the system, regardless of the system. So, some current games don't have DRM restricted access, while some do.



Lol well there is that. I mean I've been a PC gamer for a while so I'm no stranger to downloading games on my PC or account alone, but that's not how console gaming has been since, forever really..I can understand the frustration over it. It's freedom that gamers once had that now won't, and gamers are being nickel-and-dimed like crazy as it is with ridiculous amounts of DLC content these days, more expensive game prices, etc.

Also that's the first I've heard of any DRM on a ps3 title, but then Bioware is published by EA now so that isn't terribly surprising either. edit: Ohhh snap, actually I do remember hearing about that with DA:2 when it first game out.


----------



## Sicarius

Even then, nothing has been confirmed or denied. 

They may not have a fee at all, people just like to speculate when there's little to no information out there.

http://kotaku.com/eas-getting-rid-of-all-online-passes-not-just-for-new-510611639

That's what EA did recently. I don't play EA games on my console, so idk what the ONline Passes are about.


----------



## Mordacain

Choop said:


> Lol well there is that. I mean I've been a PC gamer for a while so I'm no stranger to downloading games on my PC or account alone, but that's not how console gaming has been since, forever really..I can understand the frustration over it. It's freedom that gamers once had that now won't, and gamers are being nickel-and-dimed like crazy as it is with ridiculous amounts of DLC content these days, more expensive game prices, etc.
> 
> Also that's the first I've heard of any DRM on a ps3 title, but then Bioware is published by EA now so that isn't terribly surprising either. Oyyy..



I guess I'm just not worried, nor do I feel like I've been nickle & dimed. Granted, not having DLC sales does rub me the wrong way, but standard game pricing is fine for me.

I'm actually really quite enthralled with the way indy games have started to come into their own. Also , something interesting to note about that is that those games are priced competitively and are tied to a particular users' account (either XBLive or PSN) and no-body has really raised any kind of stink about those titles. 

The furor over this just seems to me as a merit-less whine-fest. The great irony is that Microsoft is taking all of the flack for it, but the industry as a whole is moving in this direction and has been for years, ever since the onset of broadband internet across the globe.


----------



## flint757

Microsoft is always the target for everyone's angst even when EVERYONE else is doing the same thing. That's what happens when you have a product in everyone's home and own a huge chunk of the industry I suppose.


----------



## Choop

Mordacain said:


> I guess I'm just not worried, nor do I feel like I've been nickle & dimed. Granted, not having DLC sales does rub me the wrong way, but standard game pricing is fine for me.



I'm cool with paying full price for a complete game, but anymore it feels like many games are released while sacrificing quality or a complete experience, and requiring DLC to make the game actually feel complete. And then there's the whole fighting games taking full advantage of this by making anyone serious about playing the game to have all of the characters at the expense of paying for DLC, or paying for an "ultimate edition" or whatever. FPS's have caught on with map/gun packs and exclusive game+ memberships and whatnot. Just the state of gaming in general. Ughh.



flint757 said:


> Microsoft is always the target for everyone's angst even when EVERYONE else is doing the same thing. That's what happens when you have a product in everyone's home and own a huge chunk of the industry I suppose.



It's just the constant reaching for control and money. Even most PC gamers don't like MS's GFWL DRM nonsense. It doesn't help the PC gaming experience, and as far as I know those games can still be pirated to a degree. It just causes more of a hassle for the average consumer. TBH in spite of all of this, I think the weak XBOne conference really speaks for itself. Did anyone here actually get excited watching that?


----------



## Mordacain

Choop said:


> Did anyone here actually get excited watching that?



I got real excited when they said 5 billion transistors and 8 gigs of ram, but I actually know the architecture they are using inside and out so I know what that hardware can do already.

To be fair, my excitement level was roughly equal when the PS4 specs were announced.

The technological advances in the new Kinect were pretty exciting to me personally as well, but I'm a tech geek so. The stereo PSEye by comparison, I found underwhelming.

I'm also pretty keen on the controller redesign, particularly the trigger feedback enhancement and the integrated battery. Provided they allow me to use it with my PC the same way I can use my 360 controller I'll be sold.


----------



## flint757

I don't hate Microsoft's GFWL (it's gotten a little better), but I could certainly live without it. Steam is worlds better than GFWL, Origin and UPlay. They've definitely screwed up enough in the past to earn some of the skepticism and hate. It has gotten to the point though where people are defaulting certain opinions that are either not that bad or done by literally everyone else too (not directly referring to anyone or anything).


----------



## asher

Choop said:


> I'm cool with paying full price for a complete game, but anymore it feels like many games are released while sacrificing quality or a complete experience, and requiring DLC to make the game actually feel complete. And then there's the whole fighting games taking full advantage of this by making anyone serious about playing the game to have all of the characters at the expense of paying for DLC, or paying for an "ultimate edition" or whatever. FPS's have caught on with map/gun packs and exclusive game+ memberships and whatnot. Just the state of gaming in general. Ughh.





Don't like what publishers are doing, stop fu_c_king buying their games.

Look, seriously, there's barely anywhere for console gaming to go, other than faster and shinier. And we're probably going to start seeing very diminishing returns on that without advances in other places like haptics or VR. If they were trying to impress based on that, they'd get tons of flack for making a mountain out of a molehill. What they're doing is where this tech, and a lot of the use cases, are headed, so I think this is very smart, really.


----------



## Choop

asher said:


> Don't like what publishers are doing, stop fu_c_king buying their games.
> 
> Look, seriously, there's barely anywhere for console gaming to go, other than faster and shinier. And we're probably going to start seeing very diminishing returns on that without advances in other places like haptics or VR. If they were trying to impress based on that, they'd get tons of flack for making a mountain out of a molehill. What they're doing is where this tech, and a lot of the use cases, are headed, so I think this is very smart, really.



Then I guess we just have differing opinions. No need to get all huffy!  
It's really something that's starting to infest a good majority of the big name franchises anymore. And your argument is hardly an argument, the whole "don't like it? don't do it" thing really irritates me. I like playing games, and I'd like to be able to continue playing the franchises that I like without having to deal with the DLC extravaganza, but it seems that some parts of the industry have really taken to it and it's not going to get better. As far as voting with your wallet, the most recent example I can think of where a good majority of gamers did that because of annoying DLC stuff was when SFxT came out. However I doubt Capcom will actually take anything from that game's "failure", which is a real shame because that game is pretty cool. It had to suffer for Capcom's greed, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.

I think we've already been experiencing diminishing returns on what systems (and PC's) can do visually, but that doesn't mean they can't be innovative in other ways. Like apparently the kinect tracks better, maybe they could have shown a demo that implements the kinect and the player doing all kinds of crazy precise motions, sort of like how it could be utilized in a real game. If that makes me a crazy person you can tell me!


----------



## flint757

In terms of diminishing returns there is some truth to that. Most games are just not written to have the amount of detail the latest video cards can take. Unless you're running a ton of monitors most games can still be played full spec with the 5 series cards and yet we are already on 7 series (Nvidia). I mentioned this elsewhere (or earlier?), but Crysis was originally written for PC and hardcore gamers. The graphics on that game outperform even Crysis 3 (so I'm told, but definitely Crysis 2). That was back in 2007. The diminishing returns is caused by the developers more than the hardware itself.


----------



## Choop

This video pretty much nails my thoughts on the conference and XBox One reveal:



It's not really malicious I think. Just really honest opinions and reactions from a guy who's pretty involved in the FGC, so obviously he cares about gaming and the future of gaming, especially console! Gonna bow out of the thread before I derail it any further talking about the gaming industry and stuff (feel like that stuff could be run into the ground for days and days anyway).


----------



## asher

flint757 said:


> In terms of diminishing returns there is some truth to that. Most games are just not written to have the amount of detail the latest video cards can take. Unless you're running a ton of monitors most games can still be played full spec with the 5 series cards and yet we are already on 7 series (Nvidia). I mentioned this elsewhere (or earlier?), but Crysis was originally written for PC and hardcore gamers. The graphics on that game outperform even Crysis 3 (so I'm told, but definitely Crysis 2). That was back in 2007. The diminishing returns is caused by the developers more than the hardware itself.



To fully utilize the hardware is going to start taking ridiculously large budgets and amounts of time, which will come at the cost of other things and just keep inflating the AAA title bubble that we're kind of experiencing right now.

@Choop: Sorry, didn't exactly mean to get huffy. Yeah, I was going for "vote with your wallet" because it's the only way to get it through that the model stinks and we, as gamers, don't like it.

But like, publisher greed is going to be platform independent, so I don't see why it's at all relevant to the XBone.

Also: go back and find the Kinect2 demo I linked. Should it have been in the main promo? Maybe, maybe not - I think a lot of that can be revealed at E3 as it's integrated into games instead of the big reveal that was all about the XBone being your integrated does-all set top box.

Aside #2: GfW:L: garbage. But mostly because, on a PC, it's clearly and totally designed for a console and just absolutely stinks when transferred. Pain in the ass to navigate and takes way too many steps to invite/accept invites. Other than that it's not really that bad.


----------



## Mordacain

Choop said:


> Then I guess we just have differing opinions. No need to get all huffy!
> It's really something that's starting to infest a good majority of the big name franchises anymore. And your argument is hardly an argument, the whole "don't like it? don't do it" thing really irritates me. I like playing games, and I'd like to be able to continue playing the franchises that I like without having to deal with the DLC extravaganza, but it seems that some parts of the industry have really taken to it and it's not going to get better. As far as voting with your wallet, the most recent example I can think of where a good majority of gamers did that because of annoying DLC stuff was when SFxT came out. However I doubt Capcom will actually take anything from that game's "failure", which is a real shame because that game is pretty cool. It had to suffer for Capcom's greed, and that's exactly what I'm talking about.
> 
> I think we've already been experiencing diminishing returns on what systems (and PC's) can do visually, but that doesn't mean they can't be innovative in other ways. Like apparently the kinect tracks better, maybe they could have shown a demo that implements the kinect and the player doing all kinds of crazy precise motions, sort of like how it could be utilized in a real game. If that makes me a crazy person you can tell me!



Choop, I don't mean to seem like I'm attacking just you, but I really just don't understand the DLC thing... DLC, as far as I know, is universally just extra content, not required content. I've not played a single game that was incomplete and later fixed by DLC.

For instance: people make the argument that Mass Effect 3 was incomplete, but I disagree. ME3 was perfect as far as I am concerned, some folks just didn't understand / like the ending and they bitched until DLC was made to appease them. Honestly, that's the only example I can think of that even remotely comes close. 

I also disagree on diminishing returns. Just in the last few years alone, game physics have improved drastically, levels have grown immensely complex & large and graphics still have seen a steady improvement. This will continue until games are indistinguishable from reality (though it may plateau at photo-realism for a time).

Now, all of that being said, I liked the original presentation. It was high-level, but didn't pander to the audience or treat them like morons that had to have everything spelled out for them as to what the technology can do. That's what I want from a hardware reveal, not a dozen demos that are specifically built to show off the system in a best-case scenario. 

Personally, I appreciate the lack of smoke-screen tactics or pandering. I detest watching Nintendo presentations for just that reason...granted, Nintendo's chief demographic being what it is, I can understand why the big N does that.


----------



## Choop

asher said:


> But like, publisher greed is going to be platform independent, so I don't see why it's at all relevant to the XBone.



True, but the only reason I had mentioned DLC and being nickel&dimed these days is because I had talked about the fee for playing a used game on someone else's account. Honestly, I understand why they did it since the whole idea is that you download the game onto your hard drive and it's installed, like on a PC. If you could let any number of people do the same it would hurt game sales, but I can also understand how it must feel to many gamers having one more thing that they would possibly need to pay for that was previously a non-issue, coupled with high game prices and DLC, etc.



Mordacain said:


> Choop, I don't mean to seem like I'm attacking just you, but I really just don't understand the DLC thing... DLC, as far as I know, is universally just extra content, not required content. I've not played a single game that was incomplete and later fixed by DLC.
> 
> For instance: people make the argument that Mass Effect 3 was incomplete, but I disagree. ME3 was perfect as far as I am concerned, some folks just didn't understand / like the ending and they bitched until DLC was made to appease them. Honestly, that's the only example I can think of that even remotely comes close.



The problem with DLC IMO is that many games come out today with DLC already made up, or very soon after launch. Instead of putting that stuff into the game it gets offered along with the game for a fee. Even if a game is technically a "full" game, there's DLC stuff there for those who like the corresponding game. If most gamers are like me, they'd want more of a game that they like, so the DLC is enticing, but it could easily have just been put into the original game too. It isn't necessary to own DLC with every game, don't get me wrong, it's just annoying and makes me and I'm sure others as well, feel taken advantage of, or that the game isn't as good as it could have been had the DLC just been in the game in the first place. There are exceptions though, I don't want this to be too much of a generalization. 

With fighting games (and especially with sfxt) they release the game with extra characters already in mind, or in sfxt's case on the disc and you have to pay to unlock them. You can still play the game, but if you want to be good and take it more seriously you NEED the extra characters, or the new "ultimate" version or whatever. As for the ME3 ending, not sure we're going to see eye to eye on that because I thought it was balls haha. Plot holes, compromising characters, etc. 



Mordacain said:


> I also disagree on diminishing returns. Just in the last few years alone, game physics have improved drastically, levels have grown immensely complex & large and graphics still have seen a steady improvement. This will continue until games are indistinguishable from reality (though it may plateau at photo-realism for a time).



It's really nothing compared to how much everything advanced in early to late 90s, and 90s to mid-late 2000s. I guess that's what I think about when I think about diminishing returns, engines will continue to develop but it's more and more like babysteps right now. Like it's been said there are games that came out years before that could rival new games visually and in other ways too. I think the cost of development and time really plays into it most.

About the presentation, maybe it's different because you're more of a techy guy? I mean I like PC stuff and general tech things, but I feel like a layman who happens to really like video games. TBH the PS4's new controller has me more excited than anything at the XBOne reveal, because they corrected practically all of the things I didn't like about the PS3 controller and that directly affects my gaming experience. I've been gaming on PC for a while now, multimedia stuff just doesn't seem as impressive I guess...but I know I don't speak for everybody.


----------



## Mordacain

Choop said:


> As for the ME3 ending, not sure we're going to see eye to eye on that because I thought it was balls haha. Plot holes, compromising characters, etc.



We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on that.


Spoiler



I thought the concept of Shepard ( in essence, the player him/herself) having been indoctrinated throughout the games by the game creators was pure genius. Crazy, metaphysical head-fsckn at it's finest. I also didn't see any real plot holes; then again, I have the mindset that one will be unable to enjoy Sci-Fi at all if they allow plot-holes to bother them. I'm not really sure what you mean by compromising the characters either...as they evolved in the same fashion as they had from ME1 to ME2, just normal character growth.



Anywho, back on topic...I'm pretty eager to see what E3 will have in store for us from both the PS4 and XB1. I'm also curious as to what the Wii U basic recall means (which the speculation is that we'll find out either during or after E3). Honestly, I doubt I'll bother with getting the N's console this generation unless I see an absolutely fantastic exclusive in the works (in general, Mario & Zelda aren't good enough to warrant a system purchase from me).


----------



## texshred777

Mordacain said:


> We'll definitely have to agree to disagree on that.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> I thought the concept of Shepard ( in essence, the player him/herself) having been indoctrinated throughout the games by the game creators was pure genius. Crazy, metaphysical head-fsckn at it's finest. I also didn't see any real plot holes; then again, I have the mindset that one will be unable to enjoy Sci-Fi at all if they allow plot-holes to bother them. I'm not really sure what you mean by compromising the characters either...as they evolved in the same fashion as they had from ME1 to ME2, just normal character growth.


 
edit:


Spoiler



Appears I was wrong, Bioware is neither confirming or denying the Indoctrination Theory. I don't buy it, though. I could have sworn there was something on the forums a while back from one of the guys who work there denying it.


----------



## Sicarius

Personally: I love ME3's ending. It suited it perfectly. Bioware shouldn't have caved.

also:

How Games Licensing Works on Xbox One


----------



## Mordacain

Well folks, Microsoft has issued major clarification on pretty much all of the major bitching points:

Microsoft Details Xbox One Used Games, Always Online - IGN

So in general:


You can give a game to a friend once (that friend in turn can't give it to anyone else, seems fair to me)
Anyone can play games you own on your console
You can play games you own on a friends console
Games Microsoft makes can be traded in / sold, 3rd parties can have whatever policy on this they like. (I'm fine with that and it seems fair to me)
Kinect can be turned off same as the current one and has Privacy settings so you don't need to worry that your fapping is being recorded and sent to the cloud for people to laugh at
Console needs to connect to the internet once a day (I'm assuming to make sure you're still you) but you can otherwise play games offline
"Always on" is designed to keep apps, games & console updated, which is nice since PS already does that (well if you pay for PS+ anyway).

So kiddies, you can turn paranoia mode off. It's not 1984 after all  Yes, I realize this will still piss some folks off, but honestly none of this is what I would call draconian, not in the slightest. 

And I'll add that Sony still hasn't made clear what DRM will be in place for used games on the PS4, so at least we know what one of the major players is doing now.


----------



## Sicarius

I read that article and forgot to repost it.


----------



## MFB

Mordacain said:


> Well folks, Microsoft has issued major clarification on pretty much all of the major bitching points:
> 
> Microsoft Details Xbox One Used Games, Always Online - IGN
> 
> So in general:
> 
> 
> You can give a game to a friend once (that friend in turn can't give it to anyone else, seems fair to me)
> Anyone can play games you own on your console
> You can play games you own on a friends console
> Games Microsoft makes can be traded in / sold, 3rd parties can have whatever policy on this they like. (I'm fine with that and it seems fair to me)
> Kinect can be turned off same as the current one and has Privacy settings so you don't need to worry that your fapping is being recorded and sent to the cloud for people to laugh at
> Console needs to connect to the internet once a day (I'm assuming to make sure you're still you) but you can otherwise play games offline
> "Always on" is designed to keep apps, games & console updated, which is nice since PS already does that (well if you pay for PS+ anyway).
> 
> So kiddies, you can turn paranoia mode off. It's not 1984 after all  Yes, I realize this will still piss some folks off, but honestly none of this is what I would call draconian, not in the slightest.
> 
> And I'll add that Sony still hasn't made clear what DRM will be in place for used games on the PS4, so at least we know what one of the major players is doing now.



So basically, anyone who understood that computers/smart-phones/gaming consoles/etc... are technically _already_ "always on" and were trying to quell people's fears were right and this isn't that bad?

Thought so.

The only one of those that was new to me was the Kinect can be turned off; since I had assumed it would just power on when the Xbox One did as well and that was kind of it. You didn't have to use it, it'd just be running.


----------



## flint757

Sicarius said:


> How Games Licensing Works on Xbox One



Seems reasonable.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Officially no next-gen console gaming for deployed servicemen, then.

EDIT: On the XB1, at any rate. The PS4 remains to be seen.


----------



## ShadowAMD

There press release at E3 doesn't support some of the things said above, skip to 2:20 for the low down.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

So whenever Anonymous gets one of their random hate boners, I won't be able to play any games if the server goes down for more than 24 hours? Or the epic cabin trip my friends and I were planning. Or my damn Grandmother's house? What about in 10+ years when they shut down the servers? No SNES type nostalgia for me and my future kids, I guess. 

That's the only qualm I have at this point. The most annoying part is that it can be patched away. I hope that people crack this console wide open when it comes out because that's the only way that I will be buying it.


----------



## ShadowAMD

Captain Butterscotch said:


> So whenever Anonymous gets one of their random hate boners, I won't be able to play any games if the server goes down for more than 24 hours? Or the epic cabin trip my friends and I were planning. Or my damn Grandmother's house? What about in 10+ years when they shut down the servers? No SNES type nostalgia for me and my future kids, I guess.
> 
> That's the only qualm I have at this point. The most annoying part is that it can be patched away. I hope that people crack this console wide open when it comes out because that's the only way that I will be buying it.



Exactly, with online DRM working out as it did for Diablo 3 and Sim City, I would of thought they'd know better.

Plus you can't sell your second hand games period, you either bin them or trade them in for next to nothing. At approved retailers, which are generally going bust / burning down in flames.

No BC, not a big one but not a selling point either.

Price, Amazon Pre-order at £600.00 / $1000.00.. WTF? You could upgrade / build a PC that would majorly pound the next gen consoles into the ground for that.

Why risk it in a credit crunch? Unless they have an ulterior motive trying to get people back onto windows and PC?


----------



## Sicarius

The price on Amazon is just a speculative price. It probably even says that the price is subject to chance.

Yes. That's what they're doing. They're going to release a console so bad that it forces people back to PCs.


Seriously though, if you're going on a trip, why would you take the monstrous block that is the Xbone? Just keep your 360 Slim and use that on trips.


----------



## ShadowAMD

Sicarius said:


> The price on Amazon is just a speculative price. It probably even says that the price is subject to chance.
> 
> Yes. That's what they're doing. They're going to release a console so bad that it forces people back to PCs.
> 
> 
> Seriously though, if you're going on a trip, why would you take the monstrous block that is the Xbone? Just keep your 360 Slim and use that on trips.



I obviously jest, but there has to be some sort of motive for these actions when MS are potentially going to alienate a large amount of there client base. 

Whether it be backhanders from game publishers due to more profit, Microsoft PC dominance scheme , aliens invaded and forced Microsoft at laser point. The hardware itself isn't a massive money maker..

Or could it be a head guy at MS is the king of making stupid decisions?


----------



## synrgy

This may be a little OT, but: Why take a console on a trip/vacation? What's the point of going somewhere, if you're just going to the same thing you do at home?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

synrgy said:


> This may be a little OT, but: Why take a console on a trip/vacation? What's the point of going somewhere, if you're just going to the same thing you do at home?




Something to pass the time during the morning or night, or when you have nothing else to do during the day.


----------



## Sicarius

Eh, I'm still going to wait until Monday and watch their conference about it. They're probably going to explain a little better about the way things are heading for them.

Like I said before I wasn't and still am not planning to buy an Xbox 1. Hell there are things I don't like on the PS4, but I'm still going to get one. I imagine that's going to be how it is for a lot of the XBox 1 buyers. It may not be everything they want, but it'll have the games they want to play on it.


----------



## Mordacain

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Officially no next-gen console gaming for deployed servicemen, then.
> 
> EDIT: On the XB1, at any rate. The PS4 remains to be seen.



This is actually the first reasonable complaint I've seen against the always on system. I think making this a public complaint would hold more weight for easing the the always on restriction. 

No American company wants to look like it's not supporting the troops.


----------



## synrgy

I'm not sure I understand. I've had friends deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years, who I was able to stay in touch with while they were deployed, because they had net access. I mean, I understand that it's a restricted net, and not as fast as 'standard' net, but it should theoretically be good enough for your console to confirm your identity?


----------



## The Reverend

If we're moving towards a digital copy practice, why don't bigger developers just self-publish? They seem to be the most antagonistic towards the used game market anyway. I can understand how they'd have to pick up the price of marketing and such by themselves, but it would mean they'd see a greater slice of the revenue coming back to them, which could offset that added cost.

Also, another thing I'd like to add is that I bought Mass Effect 3 on PSN for $20.00. I'm guessing that's what I'd see it for if I went to Game Stop, and I'm also guessing that Bioware actually saw some of that money, which is cool. Why isn't this being talked about more? Steam set a really great precedent of essentially being an alternative to game stores, complete with deals and lower prices for older games. I think we should be pushing the game industry in that direction with our wallets. 

My last point would be that even if game companies weren't getting "screwed" by piracy and the used game market, they'd still do everything in their power to get money from us. That's the essential goal of any company. They want to increase their bottom line, at all costs. That means BS DLC is here to stay. It means that no matter what direction the industry takes, they will do whatever they can think of to keep an edge over the consumer. I agree with and feel what everyone is complaining about here, but unless you accept that this is just how capitalism works, you should really not be so surprised about this.


----------



## MFB

The Reverend said:


> If we're moving towards a digital copy practice, why don't bigger developers just self-publish? They seem to be the most antagonistic towards the used game market anyway. I can understand how they'd have to pick up the price of marketing and such by themselves, but it would mean they'd see a greater slice of the revenue coming back to them, which could offset that added cost.
> 
> Also, another thing I'd like to add is that I bought Mass Effect 3 on PSN for $20.00. I'm guessing that's what I'd see it for if I went to Game Stop, and I'm also guessing that Bioware actually saw some of that money, which is cool. Why isn't this being talked about more? Steam set a really great precedent of essentially being an alternative to game stores, complete with deals and lower prices for older games. I think we should be pushing the game industry in that direction with our wallets.
> 
> My last point would be that even if game companies weren't getting "screwed" by piracy and the used game market, they'd still do everything in their power to get money from us. That's the essential goal of any company. They want to increase their bottom line, at all costs. That means BS DLC is here to stay. It means that no matter what direction the industry takes, they will do whatever they can think of to keep an edge over the consumer. I agree with and feel what everyone is complaining about here, but unless you accept that this is just how capitalism works, you should really not be so surprised about this.



If you mean why aren't all games strictly download so that people can just buy them from their home versus going to a reseller (like Gamestop) and buying it? 

Simple: some people have shitty internet. 

I actually moved out of my dorms a few months ago where the internet was TERRIBLE, and there was ....-all you could do about it. Same applies for anyone I know who goes to a college and I try to do online gaming with; their connection is so god damn restricted you'd think it was going have a cavity search conducted on it. You can't download a full game on a connection like that, regardless of whether or not it's actually going to help support the team that made it. On the other hand, people CAN go walk in to that store, buy a disk and just run it off that instead of looking at their download time and go "Oh, cool, I'll just come back in 3 and a half days when this is done:"

(Which is roughly the equivelant time it gave me to download a BF3 expansion pack, which was 2GB and I thought, "No way, it'll be faster than that" and six hours later it was at around 4%)


----------



## texshred777

Yeah, living where I am now it would take a week to download something. Or more. The only internet connection I have out there is a 3G wifi thing from Verizon. It's good enough to stream Netflix but downloading games/add ons or playing online? Forget about that shit.


----------



## flint757

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Officially no next-gen console gaming for deployed servicemen, then.
> 
> EDIT: On the XB1, at any rate. The PS4 remains to be seen.





Mordacain said:


> This is actually the first reasonable complaint I've seen against the always on system. I think making this a public complaint would hold more weight for easing the the always on restriction.
> 
> *No American company wants to look like it's not supporting the troops.*



Either they will have a plan in place for servicemen (like signing in as a serviceman) or people will complain enough that they will do something for it I think. The bold is exactly why they will eventually do something about it. Or not.


----------



## flint757

texshred777 said:


> Yeah, living where I am now it would take a week to download something. Or more. The only internet connection I have out there is a 3G wifi thing from Verizon. It's good enough to stream Netflix but downloading games/add ons or playing online? Forget about that shit.



Kind of off topic, but it'd be a cool concept for there to be download centers where you can just take a flash drive to download new games or updates for those with poor internet service. Sounds like there is a market for it anyhow.


----------



## texshred777

flint757 said:


> Kind of off topic, but it'd be a cool concept for there to be download centers where you can just take a flash drive to download new games or updates for those with poor internet service. Sounds like there is a market for it anyhow.


 
I agree, something like that would be great for people like me. Now I have to take my 360 to a friend's house to download updates or DLC. 

Unfortunately, with the direction the One appears to be going(required internet connection) I can see them arguing that a download center is redundant and a potential piracy threat. (I'm sure there is some kind of workaround for them to ensure you're not installing said game on other people's consoles, though.)


----------



## flint757

Well they could put them in place at Gamestops or Walmarts or whatever to avoid the brick -N-Mortar cost. If no one uses it so be it, but then it wouldn't affect them financially either way. They could have you log in to the sever with your ID to download, hell they could even use a device similar to ilok. 

My internet isn't terrible, but it takes a day or 2 to download (pending on size), I just have enough going on I don't care. The update thing is indeed already an issue. Every time I start a PS3 game there is a mandatory update for something before I can use it. So technically nothing new.


----------



## Sicarius

The Reverend said:


> If we're moving towards a digital copy practice, why don't bigger developers just self-publish? They seem to be the most antagonistic towards the used game market anyway. I can understand how they'd have to pick up the price of marketing and such by themselves, but it would mean they'd see a greater slice of the revenue coming back to them, which could offset that added cost.
> 
> Also, another thing I'd like to add is that I bought Mass Effect 3 on PSN for $20.00. I'm guessing that's what I'd see it for if I went to Game Stop, and I'm also guessing that Bioware actually saw some of that money, which is cool. Why isn't this being talked about more? Steam set a really great precedent of essentially being an alternative to game stores, complete with deals and lower prices for older games. I think we should be pushing the game industry in that direction with our wallets.
> 
> My last point would be that even if game companies weren't getting "screwed" by piracy and the used game market, they'd still do everything in their power to get money from us. That's the essential goal of any company. They want to increase their bottom line, at all costs. That means BS DLC is here to stay. It means that no matter what direction the industry takes, they will do whatever they can think of to keep an edge over the consumer. I agree with and feel what everyone is complaining about here, but unless you accept that this is just how capitalism works, you should really not be so surprised about this.



Games cost a shit load of money to make. Having a big publisher like EA, Activision, etc, will help pick up the tab, and fund a lot of it. 

That's why you see a company as big as Bungie with all the money they've made off the back of Halo, still using a big publisher to help them pay for it.

Same with Bioware, but having a big publisher also means restrictions, and the need to add/remove features. It's what happened to Mass Effect (gameplay changes, addition of Online MP), and SWTOR (Game was released too early causing various issues and bugs).

My internet is 6Mb/s down, and even then it takes several hours to download DLC packs, and games.


----------



## asher

Sicarius said:


> Games cost a shit load of money to make. Having a big publisher like EA, Activision, etc, will help pick up the tab, and fund a lot of it.
> 
> That's why you see a company as big as Bungie with all the money they've made off the back of Halo, still using a big publisher to help them pay for it.
> 
> Same with Bioware, but having a big publisher also means restrictions, and the need to add/remove features. It's what happened to Mass Effect (gameplay changes, addition of Online MP), and SWTOR (Game was released too early causing various issues and bugs).
> 
> My internet is 6Mb/s down, and even then it takes several hours to download DLC packs, and games.



Said what I was going to.

This is only going to get worse and more true until the AAA title budget bubble explodes all over everything.


----------



## The Reverend

I didn't mean to advocate strictly digital copies only. I live in a rural area where our internet is pretty shoddy, so I definitely don't want to spend ~6 hours downloading a game. It does seem like this is the direction the world is heading, though. It's not as rapid as people were saying in the late 90s and early 2000s, but consuming primarily digital media is definitely where moneymakers want things to go. It means more money for them.

My understanding of the role publishers play in the video game industry is basically that of a record label in the music industry, especially in the way that they fund and oversee projects. It's maybe not feasible in today's economy, but if I were a developer with a lot of blockbuster IP's, I would think strongly about securing investors and business loans to take over the tasks publishers have previously. We've seen similar things happen in the music industry, why can't it happen with games? 

Also, why can't developers just put in a clause in the EULA that private sales between individuals are okay, but retailers have to pay them a certain percent of their sales? It's similar in effect to how I understand creative commons to work.


Granted, aside being an avid fan of games, I don't actually know many details about the industry, such as how much publishers get from new game sales and just how much of the developer's budget comes from them. I should probably get on that before spewing all these ideas out.  I hope that people on the developer's side are seriously thinking about things like this, though. I'd love to keep seeing great games come out, from indie devs all the way up to names like Bungie and Bioware. I understand how used games sales don't benefit them at all, but if I had to buy only new games on the budget I have, I'd really only buy a new game once every three or four months, and that's if I'm lucky.


----------



## MFB

The Reverend said:


> Why can't it happen with games?



Because the budget of a game is SO MUCH HIGHER than that of an album, regardless of who it's by. Making an album is a small operation, and in the end you have what, two dozen guys working on it total?

With a game you've got a couple HUNDRED if not more all working normal hours and as the day goes on, they'll sometimes do lock-downs where you stay in the building all the time, sleep at your desk, order out for food all while you keep working because it has to be done like that.


----------



## Xaios

^ Pretty much that. There was a time when I thought being a game developer would be an awesome career. Hearing about how suffocated the life is of people who work in the industry certainly changed my mind.

And yeah, you'd never be able to make a AAA title on the money you could make from crowdfunding. Star Citizen made over $6 million by crowdfunding, but even after that, most of the title is being funded by private investors who were willing to see that, "wow, these ordinary people will commit this much money to a game that's 2 years away from completion, there's an opportunity here."

Also, how is that you people in Texas have worse internet then me, the guy from the freaking YUKON?


----------



## flint757

If I run Comcast I could get like 12mb or more but it is expensive. In the actual city (I live in the suburbs) there is also FIOS which is hella fast. Where I live dial up, satellite, DSL and cable are my only options. Performance: Cost ratio puts DSL in the winners column for me and the max in my area is about 3mb (realistically I get between 2mb and 3mb).


----------



## Sicarius

I didn't think Houston had FIOS.

Time to move...


----------



## texshred777

Google fiber coming to Austin, soon. Hopefully I'll be back in Austin soon.


----------



## flint757

Sicarius said:


> I didn't think Houston had FIOS.
> 
> Time to move...



Not all of it. Coverage is spotty.

Verizon FiOS Availability Map | DSLReports.com, ISP Information


----------



## MFB

Xaios said:


> ^ Pretty much that. There was a time when I thought being a game developer would be an awesome career. Hearing about how suffocated the life is of people who work in the industry certainly changed my mind.
> 
> And yeah, you'd never be able to make a AAA title on the money you could make from crowdfunding. Star Citizen made over $6 million by crowdfunding, but even after that, most of the title is being funded by private investors who were willing to see that, "wow, these ordinary people will commit this much money to a game that's 2 years away from completion, there's an opportunity here."
> 
> Also, how is that you people in Texas have worse internet then me, the guy from the freaking YUKON?



Fun fact: I'm a Game Art student so I'm currently sitting here doing a lockdown of one of Intro to 3D Modelling finals which is due on Wednesday, so lucky me? Shit like this is what we come to expect and it only gets more difficult from here on in.


----------



## Sicarius

flint757 said:


> Not all of it. Coverage is spotty.
> 
> Verizon FiOS Availability Map | DSLReports.com, ISP Information


Yeah, I looked, The Woodlands is supposed to get it, but the apt. I want to move to in Atosca. isn't in the area.

le sad.

Why do we have shit internet?

Oligarchies, basically. ISP pretty much buy up neighborhood's access. While mine has Cable, the only DSL provider we have is Century Link. Suddenlink is available 3-5 miles westish. For the longest time you couldn't even get DirectTV here.


----------



## flint757

Yep monopolies indeed. The only cable provider in my area is Comcast. ATT Uverse is not sanctioned in League City and same applies for internet. It is truly dumb how it all works, but it is what it is.


----------



## The Reverend

I live a bit west of Magnolia, almost in Waller County, and we're forced to use Charter. I don't know what the infrastructure they use out here is, but we get about 600K/s during peak hours, and somewhere around 1M/s when they decide not to throttle us. By contrast, at my apartment in Austin I was sitting on about 6M/s. My friends in Jersey Village get about 3M/s consistently, so I tend to go over there if I need serious downloading done. 

You know what the most ....ed up thing is? My dad's company has a 1,000 acre deer lease about 30 miles from Gatesville, TX, and they have 4G on T-Mobile's network. I have faster download speeds literally in the middle of deer-, dove-, and hog-infested Hill Country nowhere than I do in my own home.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

synrgy said:


> I'm not sure I understand. I've had friends deployed in Iraq and Afghanistan over the years, who I was able to stay in touch with while they were deployed, because they had net access. I mean, I understand that it's a restricted net, and not as fast as 'standard' net, but it should theoretically be good enough for your console to confirm your identity?




It depends on where/how you're deployed. I believe there are (or at least were) some larger bases in Iraq and Afghanistan that have internet available for servicemen to purchase and use while they're in their barracks (or whatever they call them over there). For them, it might be possible to check in once a day.

However, there are smaller bases where that's not an option, and it certainly isn't an option on US Navy ships. There is internet on ships, yes, but it's VERY tightly controlled, and tends to just be 400 people who need to use the same eight ship-board computers to check their email on a slower-than-56k connection, and they have no opportunity whatsoever to use it for any other purpose. They certainly don't have access to a connection they can use for personal reasons, let alone one near enough a TV to use with a console. When I was deployed, people brought consoles with them to hook up to the TVs in the berthing area lounges and play games with eachother. I promise you, an internet connection is not an option there. Microsoft is pretty much telling deployed sailors that their new console is not for them.

So cliffs notes: Yes, perhaps there are some larger locations in IQ and AF where they can check in online once a day. On ships and smaller bases, though, no dice.


----------



## Sicarius

The scariest thing about my post is that I have zero recolection of posting "le sad".

I never write that.

wtf


To be fair though, those smaller forward operating outposts, and smaller bases, probably don't allow those kind of luxuries. As there's a higher chance for attack, and just the remoteness of the area. They probably only have a laptop or two for the officers and logistics people.


----------



## flint757

I can tell you the thought about the military didn't even cross my mind until Tim brought it up. It is highly possible they are completely unaware as well and if made aware (if they aren't already and doing something about it) they may very well do something about it.

It is also possible they are aware and have a plan in place. They have not stated one way or the other at this point. It's an easy fix though. Could be done in a single update too.


----------



## habicore_5150

I'll just leave these here for those that are still wishing to get this paperweight

Microsoft Positive Reddit Comments - Business Insider
Xbox One: It's Made For Publishers, Not For You - NowGamer
Microsoft Paying Third-Party Publishers to Not Show PS4 Games at E3 2013 ? Report
Microsoft Cancels Xbox One Executive Interviews At E3


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Microsoft in connection with this newfound PRISM stuff. 

http://mashable.com/2013/06/07/xbox-one-kinect-privacy-2/


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Sicarius said:


> To be fair though, those smaller forward operating outposts, and smaller bases, probably don't allow those kind of luxuries. As there's a higher chance for attack, and just the remoteness of the area. They probably only have a laptop or two for the officers and logistics people.



Well the Navy exists too, and those "luxuries" _are_ allowed for sailors in their downtime on ships, and they don't have internet connections available to them for consoles.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Well the Navy exists too, and those "luxuries" _are_ allowed for sailors in their downtime on ships, and they don't have internet connections available to them for consoles.



Speaking of that, there's also people that work offshore on boats and oil rigs and such. My brother said this is the main reason why he isn't getting the XBone.


----------



## Sicarius

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Well the Navy exists too, and those "luxuries" _are_ allowed for sailors in their downtime on ships, and they don't have internet connections available to them for consoles.


I know the Navy exists, Tim. I was quite obviously talking about the Army bases. 

I don't see why military people wouldn't just keep bringing a 360, or PS3/4 along. Yeah, they can't play Halo 5 or whatever exclusive bullshit Microsoft has, but you'll still be able to play something. And why risk the loss of a potentially $600 console, if it were to accidentally get damaged.

I'm sure Microsoft has thought about the military, and the people with out internet connections. There will probably be a setting for completely offline play. Again, we'll have to wait for tomorrow morning and see what they've got in store.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Sicarius said:


> I don't see why military people wouldn't just keep bringing a 360, or PS3/4 along.



I'm sure they will, since they won't have much choice in the matter. People were still bringing PS2s and XBoxes on ships for a while after the PS3 and 360 came out, too, since that's what they still had a bunch of games for.

Given the language used by microsoft so far, though, I'm not entirely confident they _will_ make a workaround for people with no connection available. I kinda suspect they see that minority as being within the acceptable loss ratio .


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

TEH FIANAL LOVDOWN. shufflemoveto the infooplace! - NeoGAF

Uh oh.


----------



## Don Vito

> ^_^ deadreising3 and exclcusive DLC for other capcpom game


say it ain't true


----------



## flint757

That couldn't have been said less eloquently. 

I think I'll wait until tonight...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

flint757 said:


> That couldn't have been said less eloquently.
> 
> I think I'll wait until tonight...



From what I know, this guy is supposed to be extremely accurate with predictions, and apparently so, because neoGAF hasn't banned him, and they have really strict moderation when it comes to rumors.


----------



## flint757

So they don't require you to not sound like a moron. 

Does he have inside info or is he quite literally just making predictions?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Pretty sure it's inside info or he's just really ....ing good at predicting. 

I believe the reason he's typing like a drunken moose hopped up on quaaludes is so nobody could recognize how he types. I'd do something similar if I wanted to keep my job.

I know you should take rumors with a grain of salt, but since this guy apparently has a decade-long track record for being spot-on... yeah.


----------



## flint757

Ahhh, so he is typing all goofy for identity protection. Guess that makes sense...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah, pretty much. 

Also, since the site's down, here's what he said:



> Microsoft is actively buying PlayStation 4 non-mentions. If you don&#8217;t explicitly hear a third-party say &#8220;our game is exclusive to Xbox One,&#8221; confidently assume a PlayStation 4 version is available behind the scenes.
> Stage two of Microsoft&#8217;s in-depth DRM messaging will arrive at Gamescom. There are no plans to support rental services. What was said last week was just so they could keep quiet.
> The power of the cloud is phony, and was designed to mask Xbox One&#8217;s DRM. Microsoft approached third-parties, not the other way around. EA and Ubisoft are Microsoft&#8217;s biggest backers, but oddly enough, not Activision.
> The DRM policy is worse than you know.
> _Mirror&#8217;s Edge 2_ will debut at Microsoft&#8217;s press conference.
> _Prince of Persia_ will return for Microsoft&#8217;s press conference.
> Special secret Phil Spencer game? _World of Tanks_ from WarGaming.net. [Update: This is apparently referring to the secret Xbox 360 game Phil Spencer has teased.]
> Xbox LIVE pay-wall set in stone for online play.
> _Dead Rising 3_ and exclusive DLC for another Capcom game.
> No online pay-wall for PlayStation 4. Unconfirmed.
> Sony is very tight-lipped about its DRM policies.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Yeah, he's never wrong.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Coming in November for $499.


----------



## Sicarius

What's a "pay-wall"?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I assume it means paying to have certain features.


----------



## groverj3

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I assume it means paying to have certain features.


 
I read into it as meaning you can't play online multiplayer without paying for a gold subscription. Exactly the way it already works. Cloud computing may not factor into the current line-up of games, but it could in the future. Meaning, that for right now it's just a DRM thing. However, that doesn't mean that is all it will be used for.

Sounds like a lot of people afraid of change. You know, how when a new version of anything comes out and people freak the .... out.

This doesn't sound so bad to me, honestly.


----------



## flint757

"There are no plans to support rental services."

That is dumb. Bye bye Redbox or Gamefly games for XBOX.


"EA and Ubisoft are Microsoft&#8217;s biggest backers, but oddly enough, not Activision."

That is not a good thing.  If EA and Ubisoft support your DRM service you are probably doing something wrong.


"Mirror&#8217;s Edge 2 will debut at Microsoft&#8217;s press conference."

This is exciting, hopefully it is released on PC.


"Xbox LIVE pay-wall set in stone for online play."

I assume that he is referring to the XBOX Live subscription since he mentioned PS4 and Sony has never charged for their online play.


----------



## Sicarius

PSN+ has had free games for download since it's launch last year, pick from the list, download one or all.

Is Microsoft going to allow you to download any 2 games, or from a selection, because I can see a lot of people using one of their free downloads on Halo 5.


----------



## groverj3

flint757 said:


> "There are no plans to support rental services."
> 
> That is dumb. Bye bye Redbox or Gamefly games for XBOX.
> 
> 
> "EA and Ubisoft are Microsoft&#8217;s biggest backers, but oddly enough, not Activision."
> 
> That is not a good thing.  If EA and Ubisoft support your DRM service you are probably doing something wrong.


 
Honestly, I haven't rented a game in ages. However, "no rentals" sounds like sensationalism to me. Nobody has said anything officially, so let's step off the hate train for the time being.

EA likes its DRM for sure...


----------



## flint757

groverj3 said:


> Honestly, I haven't rented a game in ages. However, "no rentals" sounds like sensationalism to me. Nobody has said anything officially, so let's step off the hate train for the time being.
> 
> EA likes its DRM for sure...



Okay man. I have been on the pedestal defending Microsoft (until they officially bury or redeem themselves) for like the last few pages.  Not because I agree with them, but because of all the ridiculous rumors that were either pure speculation or completely unsubstantiated and typically reaching.

I'm being told this guy is accurate and if that is indeed true then I'm not sensationalizing. If they have no intentions on entering the rental market that is a fairly big deal. Redbox would not have games if they weren't selling. Gamefly is a business many people use as well as it is cheaper than buying for some people. Whether you use the service or not is moot. I don't use them either, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize it as a bad business decision.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well, by the looks of it, he was wrong with Mirror's Edge 2. 

Either he finally ....ed up or he picked the wrong conferences. I guess wait for the EA and Ubisoft conferences to see what happens.


----------



## flint757

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well, by the looks of it, he was wrong with Mirror's Edge 2.



I are disappoint.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well, like I said, there's always the EA conference. There has been some stuff hinting towards a ME2 release.


----------



## groverj3

flint757 said:


> Okay man. I have been on the pedestal defending Microsoft (until they officially bury or redeem themselves) for like the last few pages.  Not because I agree with them, but because of all the ridiculous rumors that were either pure speculation or completely unsubstantiated and typically reaching.
> 
> I'm being told this guy is accurate and if that is indeed true then I'm not sensationalizing. If they have no intentions on entering the rental market that is a fairly big deal. Redbox would not have games if they weren't selling. Gamefly is a business many people use as well as it is cheaper than buying for some people. Whether you use the service or not is moot. I don't use them either, but that doesn't mean I can't recognize it as a bad business decision.


 
Oh, I wasn't implying you were sensationalizing it. Just that the gaming community as a whole is.

I agree though, no rentals would be a bad business move. It just wouldn't impact my decision to buy it or not. I probably will in the end, regardless of all the worries. Mostly because I want to play Halo 5 and 6


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Good news, Flint. Mirrors Edge 2 confirmed.


----------



## flint757

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Good news, Flint. Mirrors Edge 2 confirmed.



Awesome!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Packaging:






XBL packaging:









Game covers:


----------



## Sicarius

Am I the only one that wasn't really all that impressed?

I mean, MGS5 looks amazing, and so do the other AAA games.

But they're supposed to, so, the rest seemed...meh.


----------



## MFB

Sicarius said:


> Am I the only one that wasn't really all that impressed?
> 
> I mean, MGS5 looks amazing, and so do the other AAA games.
> 
> But they're supposed to, so, the rest seemed...meh.



Really, no love for Ryse, or Project Spark? Both of those looked cool as hell. MGS is just more of well, MGS


----------



## BrainArt

I think Ryse looks like it's going to be a sick game.

The Forza series has always been amazing, same with Halo.


I'm probably one of the few people who aren't on the Microsoft hate bandwagon.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Both of those games look sweeeeeeeet! Spark especially.


----------



## iamthefonz

MFB said:


> Really, no love for Ryse, or Project Spark? Both of those looked cool as hell. MGS is just more of well, MGS


Ryse looks like it has some _super_ shallow combat. That demo essentially boiled down to "slash, slash, finisher" and I was already getting tired of how repetitive the demo was getting. It's pretty, but a game like that depends on how fun the combat is, and it's not looking deep.

Spark looks kind of cool, but still doesn't quite seem like the definitive exclusive IP that Microsoft needs to beat the PS4. Besides, I bet quite a few of these "exclusives" (particularly Dead Rising 3) will make their way to other consoles soon after. Microsoft really needs to pull out a killer exclusive if it wants to compete with the PS4, especially after Sony announced no DRM.


----------



## MFB

BrainArt said:


> I'm probably one of the few people who aren't on the Microsoft hate bandwagon.



I'm not on the bandwagon, because I know: 

My home has a connection that I can connect to at least once a day
I don't buy used games or trade them in
I don't borrow games from people because I know I won't immediately start playing it and feel bad
I'll very rarely be using it for watching movies with multiple guests and I know M$ won't start charging by using the Kinect as a sensor for shit like that
Because I genuinely like the new Xbox titles.


----------



## flint757

Consoles in and of itself is DRM with discs and accounts to log on to the boxes. That's why I assumed they never bothered with other DRM services. 

Then again Steam is essentially DRM and some of the big titles still end up with extra DRM (Ubisoft ).


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Killer Instinct is free to play... If you don't count having to start with only one character and needing to pay for all the others. 



EDIT: Nevermind. This is just a demo version. Shit's getting confusing. 
http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/06...e-launch-game?abthid=51b6d0edec67b0542a000058


----------



## BrainArt

MFB said:


> I'm not on the bandwagon, because I know:
> 
> My home has a connection that I can connect to at least once a day
> I don't buy used games or trade them in
> I don't borrow games from people because I know I won't immediately start playing it and feel bad
> I'll very rarely be using it for watching movies with multiple guests and I know M$ won't start charging by using the Kinect as a sensor for shit like that
> Because I genuinely like the new Xbox titles.



This is my thought process, as well.


Also, the Witcher 3! Yes! Though, I may end up getting it for my PC, since I have the first two on my PC from Steam.


----------



## flexkill

I am not really happy with Microsoft's DRM shit....but in reality XBOX is all I have known for over a decade now....and truth be told....I will stick with them because of it......


I haven't owned a Playstation since PS1....I wouldn't even know where to begin with Sony....and I hate Nintendo.


EDIT: Also, am I ever going to see a new Fallout game??? FFS I love that series ....where the fvck is Fallout 4 already???


----------



## BrainArt

flexkill said:


> I am not really happy with Microsoft's DRM shit....but in reality XBOX is all I have known for over a decade now....and truth be told....I will stick with them because of it......
> 
> 
> I haven't owned a Playstation since PS1....I wouldn't even know where to begin with Sony....and I hate Nintendo.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Also, am I ever going to see a new Fallout game??? FFS I love that series ....where the fvck is Fallout 4 already???



Bethesda are working on their "next huge project" right now, which is why there is no more Skyrim DLC. So it may in fact be Fallout 4.

In other Bethesda news, ESO is going to be on PC, PS4, Xbox One and Mac.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

flexkill said:


> EDIT: Also, am I ever going to see a new Fallout game??? FFS I love that series ....where the fvck is Fallout 4 already???



I assume it'll be Bethesda's next big in-house game. They've been swapping back and forth for the last few FO and TES installments, ie they didn't start work on FO3 until they finished TE4, and they didn't start work on TES5 until they finished FO3. It would hopefully follow that now that they're done with TES5, they'll start (or have already started) on FO4.


----------



## Sicarius

RoosterTeeth thinks Bethesda's working on the next Elder Scrolls game. 

They might very well have a team working on Fall Out, though.


----------



## ShadowAMD

I looked at prices of new games for XBONE / PS4, is it just me or does the 54.99 GBP price tag make you cringe a little?

Previous XBOX fan here and looking at getting the PS4, although I keep hugging my PC tighter with the news of release costs.


----------



## flint757

My next tech update is going to be a gtx 780, 4th gen I7 and a z87 MOBO....very soon. Maybe a couple years down the road I'll buy a PS4 or XBONE.

I still haven't beat all the games on my PC or PS3 to contemplate updating to a system I can't even play them on.


----------



## ShadowAMD

flint757 said:


> My next tech update is going to be a gtx 780, 4th gen I7 and a z87 MOBO....very soon. Maybe a couple years down the road I'll buy a PS4 or XBONE.
> 
> I still haven't beat all the games on my PC or PS3 to contemplate updating to a system I can't even play them on.



With Steam sales and cost of PC games, I can't blame ya!! I'm out of games to play, just downloaded DLC for Arkham City. I'm an RPG nut and there's not many coming out of the woodwork at the moment.

For anyone interested, Kingdom Heart's 3 is coming out for both Xbox One and PS4. Seems to be some confusion on the web it's only coming out for the Xbox.


----------



## flint757

Steam sales have caused me some serious backlog of games.


----------



## Genome




----------



## flexkill

Genome said:


>




Jesus, what are these guys thinking! It'a almost like they are trying to get people NOT to buy the XBOX One.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Killer Instinct is free to play... If you don't count having to start with only one character and needing to pay for all the others.



Welp, according to sources, it turns out the F2P version of this game is a demo with the option to buy more characters.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

And thus, the DRM/used game backpedaling begins. 



> *The narrative I've heard is that EA lobbied hard to have the hardware companies come up with a solution so you guys are not faffing around with online passes and you're not losing potential used game profits to retailers*
> 
> Moore: "Absolutely incorrect. As the guy who is the chief operating officer of Electronic Arts I can tell you that EA did not aggressively lobby for the platform holders to put some gating function in there to allow or disallow used games. I am on record as being a proponent of used games. I like the ecosystem. I like the fact that it's kept pricing at a good level for eight years. I like the fact that someone can buy a physical game and see some equity in that game. That keeps GameStop vibrant and they are a great launch and marketing partner for us.
> "EA has never had a conversation, and I have been present at all of them, with all of the manufacturers, saying you must put a system in place that allows us to take a piece of the action or even stop it. Absolutely incorrect."



Unless he is telling the truth. If he is, then Microsoft was the one that was pursuing DRM, not the publishers.


----------



## Sicarius

Or at the very least, just not EA.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Some people have said Ubisoft were just as supportive for it. Activision, not so much.


----------



## Curt

I have loved Xbox/XBL for over a decade now, but I am not sure so far... 

The PS4 looks a little more promising so far, and though the social network integration is unnecessary, it seems well done.
But the XB1 having the multitasking capabilities is a bit more useful.(I post here from my 360 when at home, since my laptop shit the bed.)
I might get both consoles, like I did with current-gen. Using the PS only for Sony exclusives and games I like to play offline, while using XBL for the bulk of online gaming.


----------



## flint757

I'd suspect Ubisoft over all the others. They enjoy basically ruining all their games with DRM. Then again they prefer the console market, as they regularly give the middle finger to PC gamers, so none of the publishers may have been for it at all. Extra DRM seems wholly unnecessary when console game piracy is really low in most places. This is all about the Used Game policies. 

Here's the part I don't get. It'd make sense to allow one-to-one trades/sells, no internet needed, etc. and then just force places like Gamestop to pay a fee to the developers or publishers for their used game sells in particular. They can't say no as they could just pull the new games off the shelf. Since this was supposedly because of the Gamestops and EB Games that would have made a hell of a lot more sense.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

According to Microsoft, these are the only countries that can use the Xbox One _*at launch. *_

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox-one/pre-order-xbox-one/disclaimer


----------



## Sicarius

Well, that is more than 16 countries.


----------



## flint757

No Japan or China? Seems like a bad move. Then again Sony will probably dominate those markets anyhow.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

They're supposed to be launching in Asia in late 2014. So, a year after the official launch.


----------



## flint757

What about Portugal, Eastern Europe and the rest of South America?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

No one has said anything yet, to my knowledge.


----------



## maliciousteve

Read this?

No internet for Xbox One? Microsoft says stop whining and play your 360 | News | TechRadar

Quite frankly Microsoft can suck my balls when it comes to the new Xbox. It's like they're doing everything they can for you to NOT buy the new console.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah, the 360 comment was even covered by Yahoo. That news is spreading pretty quickly.


----------



## flint757

That statement would only be a valid option if they continue to produce games for the 360 as well as the one (which I doubt they will). There was better ways to word that too.

While I get their overall intentions (can't enforce any of their policies without internet) I really don't like their approach or attitude about it at this point. There are ways they could accommodate and it seems they are, as of right now, unwilling to bend on anything.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

https://twitter.com/Crofna/status/344878297060110336

Goddammit Microsoft.


----------



## flint757

Why did they go with region locks in the first place? Some of these policies are mind boggling as I just don't see the benefit or point in them for Microsoft, publishers or consumers.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

What I've gotten from just about everything related to this stuff has been an absolute amalgam of haughty attitudes and "come up to my level" mentality.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

flint757 said:


> Why did they go with region locks in the first place? Some of these policies are mind boggling as I just don't see the benefit or point in them for Microsoft, publishers or consumers.



Phil Harrison is a double agent for Sony?


----------



## flint757

One thing is certain on my end and that is I hope more people buy the PS4 just so XBOX exclusives might get on PS4 and maybe PC as well. I don't mind many of these policies and the ones I don't like I can live with (I buy new, resale maybe once (usually never), I have internet, I don't travel with my consoles, I don't lend/borrow games, I use Steam so I'm used to many of these policies already and I live in the US), BUT I'm not a fan of how they are handling this or their attitude about it either. It doesn't exactly make me want to give them my money.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well, the guys from Respawn are saying that Titanfall MAY be ported to the PS4, and when I heard Capcom say they wanted to "Call of Duty-ize" Dead Rising 3, I lost all want for the XBone.


----------



## flint757

I didn't get why they did that when we already have Left 4 Dead and Dead Island. The comical, outrageous aspect is what I loved about Dead Rising. And what is the industry/consumers obsession with COD style games to begin with?


----------



## flexkill

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> https://twitter.com/Crofna/status/344878297060110336
> 
> Goddammit Microsoft.


----------



## AndrewFTMfan

Not really surprised Microsoft is being a dick about the Xbox one. I feel like if they did what everyone on here is talking about, PS4 and Xbox one would just be clones of each other. I just wished that the strive for originality wouldn't have caused such a divide and poor choices made by Microsoft.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well, at least you can sell the console.


----------



## asher

On the other hand, this is pretty cool:

Xbox Live's Major Nelson » Xbox One Smart Match :


----------



## MythicSquirrel

Microsoft are being a bunch of ....asses. 
"Don't have internet? Have fun with your 360 losers!"


----------



## Don Vito

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> and when I heard Capcom say they wanted to "Call of Duty-ize" Dead Rising 3, I lost all want for the XBone.


----------



## Matt_D_

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Well, the guys from Respawn are saying that Titanfall MAY be ported to the PS4, and when I heard Capcom say they wanted to "Call of Duty-ize" Dead Rising 3, I lost all want for the XBone.



you dont make back your 30million dev costs on 100k consoles at launch. my money is on that they'll be hitting as many target platforms as possible once their deal with MS runs out.


----------



## texshred777

The Witcher 3 dev studio won&#8217;t be able to play its own game on the Xbox One | Games | Geek.com

I found this interesting, sad, and amusing.


----------



## Curt

Used game limiting? Eh, whatever.
Periodic online check-ins? I have decent internet, so no problems.
Can't play a borrowed game? That's a bummer.
Kinect always on? I have ZERO use for the Kinect, but whatever.



Not sure that Killer Instinct, Halo, Titanfall, and the multi-task feature are worth $500. Their policies are making me less likely to buy the XB1, more than anything.


----------



## asher

Microsoft defends the Xbox One&rsquo;s licensing, used game policies | Ars Technica


----------



## habicore_5150

Best Buy E3 Experience events being ambushed by Microsoft in order to push Xbox One? | GoNintendo - What are YOU waiting for?

Ok, I'm no marketing major by any means. But MS, that has got to be the WORST marketing ploy that I've ever seen: Go to a Best Buy where plenty of gamers are playing WiiU demos, and advertise your paperweight

At this point, MS is becoming more and more desperate to get that console out, even though they got demolished by Sony at E3 earlier this week


----------



## Curt

Wait, so if a friend shares a game with me, I could play it through the "family" thing?
Would that still require the physical copy? Because if not that is seriously cool, and redeems the XB1, a bit.


----------



## asher

Curt said:


> Wait, so if a friend shares a game with me, I could play it through the "family" thing?
> Would that still require the physical copy? Because if not that is seriously cool, and redeems the XB1, a bit.



Nope, no physical copy. It's like Steam sharing your account detail, except you both get to be online at the same time (just not playing the same copy of the game). And when you need to yell at your buddy to GTFO your game, you can do it with the integrated skype instead of having to drive over to his house to beat his ass and take your disc back.


----------



## jonajon91

_Periodic online check-ins? I have decent internet, so no problems_.

It does not matter how good your internet is, when they have maintenance (can last days), we cant play. 

_Can't play a borrowed game? That's a bummer._

CEX, gamestop, granger games, game station and thousands of other shops are thinking it is a bit more than a bummer. I buy 80% of my games second hand and I always borrow/trade games.

_Kinect always on? I have ZERO use for the Kinect, but whatever._

I don't believe in the whole George Orwell 1984 stuff that everyone is ranting about, but I am annoyed by how demanding it is. you have to have it plugged in to play, if you unplug it, your xBox turns off, if you cover it up, your xBox turns off.

I am in no ways looking for an argument, but I honestly believe that if I stop someone from buying the xBox One, then I have done a good deed. The playstation does not have any of the disadvantages mentioned there and is £100 cheaper. This is all coming from an xBox fanboy as well, I love the 360 and I think it beats the PS3, but Microsoft are being nothing short of idiotic with their new console.


----------



## BrainArt

Let's Clear Up The Issues: Used Games, Kinect Privacy, and Other (What Most People Seem to Have Missed, An Explanation) : xboxone


----------



## Eisenbass

X1 still doesn't convince as a CONSOLE, but it is a pretty awesome social media center...


----------



## Osorio

jonajon91 said:


> but I honestly believe that if I stop someone from buying the xBox One, then I have done a good deed.



Word. It's a bit sad that a lot of people are not seeing the big picture. The fact that most of us have reliable connections doesn't mean that the system is not flawed. Server maintenance and TIME will make the console unplayable.

_(and this is completely and absolutely my guess on things, but I believe Live is about to get hacked. A LOT. Once the X1 starts to sell, I can vision a lot of hackers attempting to break Live. I mean, that PS3 was pretty much left alone while it had Linux, then Sony removes it and BAM. Thousand of geeks pissed of. I can't imagine that MS hasn't pissed off some geeks by now...)_

No chance this console will still be working in 10 years, when they have removed the infrastructure needed and moved on to something else. Maybe that doesn't matter for a lot of people, but I generally like to play old games. I still play my SNES every now and again. I *REALLY* dislike the idea of the console having a "killswitch" that will make it unplayable past "2025" (or "whatever year") even if you bought it in "whatever year -1".

So far, the PS4 is simply the better deal. Anyway you look at it. Unless Halo is your air, in which case, that is a problem all of its own.


----------



## thatguy87

Right now, I am so glad I ....ING HATE Halo. So disappointed in you MS, so very disappointed.

EDIT: since when is there a profanity filter? I thought we were adults here.


----------



## asher

jonajon91 said:


> _Periodic online check-ins? I have decent internet, so no problems_.
> 
> It does not matter how good your internet is, when they have maintenance (can last days), we cant play.
> 
> _Can't play a borrowed game? That's a bummer._
> 
> CEX, gamestop, granger games, game station and thousands of other shops are thinking it is a bit more than a bummer. I buy 80% of my games second hand and I always borrow/trade games.
> 
> _Kinect always on? I have ZERO use for the Kinect, but whatever._
> 
> I don't believe in the whole George Orwell 1984 stuff that everyone is ranting about, but I am annoyed by how demanding it is. you have to have it plugged in to play, if you unplug it, your xBox turns off, if you cover it up, your xBox turns off.
> 
> I am in no ways looking for an argument, but I honestly believe that if I stop someone from buying the xBox One, then I have done a good deed. The playstation does not have any of the disadvantages mentioned there and is £100 cheaper. This is all coming from an xBox fanboy as well, I love the 360 and I think it beats the PS3, but Microsoft are being nothing short of idiotic with their new console.



How often does Live go down? Are you aware of how absolutely stupid ....ing powerful the Azure server cloud they're hooking this up to is?

And uh. you can play borrowed games...


----------



## Curt

jonajon91 said:


> _Periodic online check-ins? I have decent internet, so no problems_.
> 
> It does not matter how good your internet is, when they have maintenance (can last days), we cant play.
> 
> 
> You realize I am ALSO buying the PS4, right? the PS4 would be a safegaurd for that. Besides, I can go a few days without playing.
> _Can't play a borrowed game? That's a bummer._
> 
> CEX, gamestop, granger games, game station and thousands of other shops are thinking it is a bit more than a bummer. I buy 80% of my games second hand and I always borrow/trade games.
> I never mentioned any of them. It would be a bummer for me, but little more than that.
> 
> _Kinect always on? I have ZERO use for the Kinect, but whatever._
> 
> I don't believe in the whole George Orwell 1984 stuff that everyone is ranting about, but I am annoyed by how demanding it is. you have to have it plugged in to play, if you unplug it, your xBox turns off, if you cover it up, your xBox turns off.
> 
> And? I said I have no real use for it, not that I don't want it looking at me/feel violated.
> 
> That said, I will not buy the XBOX One at launch. And with the number of my friends that are buying the PS4... I don't know if I will buy the XBOX One at all.
> 
> I am in no ways looking for an argument, but I honestly believe that if I stop someone from buying the xBox One, then I have done a good deed. The playstation does not have any of the disadvantages mentioned there and is £100 cheaper. This is all coming from an xBox fanboy as well, I love the 360 and I think it beats the PS3, but Microsoft are being nothing short of idiotic with their new console.


 
My counter in red.


----------



## ScottyB724

It's pretty sad if your idea of a good deed is telling someone else how to spend THEIR money. Get off your high horse. Also, nothing is set in stone regarding all this DRM non-sense. Since the launch of next gen consoles is still 5+ months away, expect both MS and Sony to change things as they hammer out the details. Right now, the xbone is looking like a perfect console, FOR ME. The xbox family thing has the potential to be a great way to save money on games and share them with friends.


----------



## Osorio

ScottyB724 said:


> It's pretty sad if your idea of a good deed is telling someone else how to spend THEIR money.



That's beautiful and all, but, unfortunately, what people do with THEIR money DOES have an effect on other people. Sure, people can do whatever the hell they want, like you said, their money. But you would be mistaken in thinking that it doesn't impact us all. Every unit sold is a hit this community takes. You might be satisfied, but we, as a whole, are not. You can vote with your wallet and say it is the perfect console, but we will vote with ours. Pardon us if we try to dissuade someone from making a purchase we think is foolish. MS has been going on and on about "educating" the consumer. We are just doing the exact same thing.

I'm kind of tired of making this argument over and over again (not particularly here, but in other videogame forums), of how this thing should just be illegal and how this is a DEFEAT for gamers everywhere if it succeeds... 
But seriously? If someone can honestly say that they want the Xbox One, that they think has a good design (as in concept) and think it is a GOOD console, even with (and not in spite of) all the "things" MS has done with it, nothing can be done... Enjoy your Xbox One. I hope it meets your expectations.


----------



## wankerness

New Xbox 'a sin against all service members' | Army Times | armytimes.com

Got to say, I didn't see THIS one coming. Their reasons are all entirely valid despite the histrionic headline and it's somewhat hilarious that this Xbone debacle has reached the level of people proclaiming "MS HATES SERVICEMEN"


----------



## wankerness

Curt said:


> Used game limiting? Eh, whatever.
> Periodic online check-ins? I have decent internet, so no problems.
> Can't play a borrowed game? That's a bummer.
> Kinect always on? I have ZERO use for the Kinect, but whatever.
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure that Killer Instinct, Halo, Titanfall, and the multi-task feature are worth $500. Their policies are making me less likely to buy the XB1, more than anything.



I was really excited about the killer instinct reboot until it was revealed that the game is some pathetic DLC cashgrab where only one character is unlocked until you buy the others! KI Gold and Killer Instinct (snes port) are still my favorite two fighting games of all time by a huge margin. OH well.


----------



## xandman1988

Meh... I will probably still buy the XBONE. I used my 360 as an entertainment center anyways


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

wankerness said:


> I was really excited about the killer instinct reboot until it was revealed that the game is some pathetic DLC cashgrab where only one character is unlocked until you buy the others! KI Gold and Killer Instinct (snes port) are still my favorite two fighting games of all time by a huge margin. OH well.



From what I've read, that was a demo version. The full version will have all characters.

The thing that steers me away from it is the developers. Rare has been in the shitter ever since Starfox Adventures and Double Helix was responsible for Green Lantern, Battleship, and GI Joe games.  

Ryse looked like a QTE fest (it was originally designed for the Kinect, so that makes sense), and like I said, when Capcom said that they wanted to go after the "Call of Duty player" for Dead Rising 3.... no.


----------



## habicore_5150

Xbox One Games At E3 Were Running On Windows 7 With Nvidia GTX Cards

imo, this is pretty damn shameful. Toting around a system, yet you don't use said system to demonstrate a couple of upcoming games at E3


----------



## Osorio

^ 

The crashing was just gold. It's pretty normal to use PCs for demonstration on stage, to have it for use in audience demo is pretty bad. It's specially intriguing that they would have nVidia GPU when the console itself will have AMD, and the optimization is probably quite different for the two. 
Unless the games are simply not optimized AT ALL, hence the need to pull Windows 7 into the picture. Which is also a pretty bad sign in and off itself.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

I'm the last guy to defend Xbone at this point, but I thought stuff like that was SOP at conventions?

And that Army article. Ouch.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I'm the last guy to defend Xbone at this point, but I thought stuff like that was SOP at conventions?
> .



According to some guys that saw them, they're using Nvidia GTX Titan GPUs, not the AMD stuff that they said they were for the Xbone.


----------



## Osorio

Yeah, I believe it is more about the lack of "coherence" (?). Also, if it really was a Titan, that GPU is light-years from what consoles will have (even if it was "just" a GTX780, the difference is still pretty large), so there goes some of the credibility on the console... Demo on PC is not unusual, but they are generally dev-kits (like PS4 developers claim) or at least comparable hardware.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Your XBL account gets banned, you lose access to your games.


----------



## Osorio

It just gets better! 

Nothing like some REAL encouragement to keep the cheaters away.

I wonder how liberal they will be with banning accounts, given this fact. The wonders of the future.


----------



## MFB

Well there goes half the replay value for some people on the CoD franchise. 

I'm not one of those people and I love reporting glitchers and hackers, so I say .... em, let em be banned and not let em play. There's no point to playing a game if all you do is have 100% health and deal 200% damage, just running around ....ing shit up. That's fun for about what, 10 minutes? Make a custom game off-line with bots and do that shit ....head, not on XBL where I have to deal with it.


----------



## Joose

I'm okay with that. Sick of trolls, sick of cheaters.

Send 'em over to Sony.


----------



## wankerness

Well, that's already how it is with Steam and I don't see people freaking out about that. I guess it's just the idea that they'll have a useless disc lying around with xbox games you bought for a banned account, while with steam you are just left with a bunch of useless gigabytes.


----------



## wankerness

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> From what I've read, that was a demo version. The full version will have all characters.
> 
> The thing that steers me away from it is the developers. Rare has been in the shitter ever since Starfox Adventures and Double Helix was responsible for Green Lantern, Battleship, and GI Joe games.
> 
> Ryse looked like a QTE fest (it was originally designed for the Kinect, so that makes sense), and like I said, when Capcom said that they wanted to go after the "Call of Duty player" for Dead Rising 3.... no.



I am about the only person I've ever known that will defend Banjo Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts, but yeah, Rare hasn't produced any really great games since the N64 days imo. Starfox Adventures I did play through all the way and it was a solid zelda rip but...yeah. They've been on the skids since the N64 days. 

Sidenote: I'd buy the shit out of upscaled arcade ports of KI 1/2, too bad it will probably never happen 

Dead Rising was never a game series I liked, but yeah, giving it a "realistic" style seems like it would destroy most of what people liked about the first two.


----------



## Don Vito

The first Dead Rising game blows from a technical standpoint, but it had this great atmosphere. Walking in the mall at night with a Servbot mask fighting off crazed cult members and hordes of zombies with a bass guitar.

The second one is better from a gameplay standpoint, but doesn't have as much Japanese atmosphere as the first because of Canadian developers.

The new one looks too American(Canadian actually), but I'd still give it a shot.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>


----------



## Bekanor

The thing I keep coming back to about all this (and this is the same for PS as well) is touting these things as complete media centers. The 360/PS3 were both touted this way too. Both HD capable (to a point in the case of 360), neither one supports much in the way of codecs, HD or otherwise. 

I get that doing so is just another ineffectual non-attempt to combat piracy but I really ....ing hate having to try and remember what particular formats and various configurations within a particular format my system supports. Just make it play disc based movies and I'll set up an actual media server that doesn't drop its guts on any number of standard video formats that have been around for ages. Don't keep punching out these half measures and telling me how great of a media center it is when I can jury rig obsolete bits of PC hardware together, slap VLC on it and get better results every time.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

wankerness said:


> Well, that's already how it is with Steam and I don't see people freaking out about that.



Didn't Steam change that policy? I thought you had access to your games, but you just can't buy new games or redeem codes. I also believe you have to try really hard to get banned on Steam.

With XBL, you lose all access.


----------



## flint757

You have to do some hardcore cheating to get full on banned on Steam. They disable your account completely though if I'm not mistaken or at least they used to. It happened to a friend of mine a couple times a few years back. It could have changed more recently though.


----------



## Repner

MFB said:


> Well there goes half the replay value for some people on the CoD franchise.
> 
> I'm not one of those people and I love reporting glitchers and hackers, so I say .... em, let em be banned and not let em play. There's no point to playing a game if all you do is have 100% health and deal 200% damage, just running around ....ing shit up. That's fun for about what, 10 minutes? Make a custom game off-line with bots and do that shit ....head, not on XBL where I have to deal with it.


Sure, but there is a difference between banning them from online play (which I'd agree with), and bricking their machine and entire "offline" single player library.


----------



## Don Vito

Yesh... even if you're a filthy cheat, you spent cash on your games. Maybe because you stalled the experience for someone who also spent cash on a game to play online, MS thinks this eye for an eye policy is okay. I don't think it is, unless the person engaging in the ban-able offense does something on the lines of fraud. But then it's a legal offense at this point... I think.

This shit is becoming too dramatic and technical for what is supposed to be entertainment.


----------



## wankerness

Bekanor said:


> The thing I keep coming back to about all this (and this is the same for PS as well) is touting these things as complete media centers. The 360/PS3 were both touted this way too. Both HD capable (to a point in the case of 360), neither one supports much in the way of codecs, HD or otherwise.
> 
> I get that doing so is just another ineffectual non-attempt to combat piracy but I really ....ing hate having to try and remember what particular formats and various configurations within a particular format my system supports. Just make it play disc based movies and I'll set up an actual media server that doesn't drop its guts on any number of standard video formats that have been around for ages. Don't keep punching out these half measures and telling me how great of a media center it is when I can jury rig obsolete bits of PC hardware together, slap VLC on it and get better results every time.



Yeah, the codec thing is horrendous, I regularly encounter failure to play errors on avis encoded years ago if I try to play directly through the xbox video player.

If you don't have it already, get Tversity media server for your computer. It handles the video decoding on your computer's end so you can actually watch MKVs and the like on the xbox (you choose the Tversity server instead of your computer on the network browser in the xbox video player). It does downscale HD ones but it's more than worth it to have 90% of downloaded videos work on the xbox instead of 30%.

I agree that a real media server is a million times better.


----------



## flint757

maliciousteve said:


> Read this?
> 
> No internet for Xbox One? Microsoft says stop whining and play your 360 | News | TechRadar
> 
> Quite frankly Microsoft can suck my balls when it comes to the new Xbox. It's like they're doing everything they can for you to NOT buy the new console.



Indeed, that is a rather poor way of handling the situation. OTOH good news for those with a 360 is that they are going to continue producing 360 games for a couple years apparently. You can go buy a PC or a PS4 and still play your exclusives. 



texshred777 said:


> The Witcher 3 dev studio wont be able to play its own game on the Xbox One | Games | Geek.com
> 
> I found this interesting, sad, and amusing.



I'm quite baffled that some countries, like Poland, won't have access.



asher said:


> Microsoft defends the Xbox One&rsquo;s licensing, used game policies | Ars Technica



While I get the why and what their goal/intentions are I'm growing more and more tired of Microsoft trying to be the Messiah to the tech world. I'm first in line to defend Windows 8 because it performs better, has better management, better menus, tools are organized better, looks cleaner, etc., but I'm not a fan of the start menu without a touchscreen. The thing is, with Windows 8, I can at least disable the start screen and re-install a start button with a few mods. I don't like that I have to go this route or how in your face it is when the PC starts, but it is at least fixable. With a few mods and setting adjustments it is an amazing OS. 

The same thing is happening here though. They are telling consumers what they should want and saying this is your only option. Only with the XBOX it really is your only option. As an example, the Kinect may be amazing, but it is genuinely retarded that you can't unplug it. Not exactly a deal breaker (other things take care of that ), but it is retarded nonetheless. There is no logical reason beyond forcing what they think is best on everyone for why it 'has' to be used. I get why they want people to own them (so developers will start adding the controller into their games), but there is zero reason IMO as to why it can't be unplugged (especially for servicemen ).

They spend too much time trying to force change rather than letting change occur naturally. They've grown quite impatient over the last year or so. 



asher said:


> Nope, no physical copy. It's like Steam sharing your account detail, except you both get to be online at the same time (just not playing the same copy of the game). And when you need to yell at your buddy to GTFO your game, you can do it with the integrated skype instead of having to drive over to his house to beat his ass and take your disc back.



That is definitely a redeeming factor. I'm quite irritated that Google signed an exclusive contract with Microsoft though. Skype, for video conferencing, has kind of become a de facto standard for it to intentionally be excluded from any device.



wankerness said:


> New Xbox 'a sin against all service members' | Army Times | armytimes.com
> 
> Got to say, I didn't see THIS one coming. Their reasons are all entirely valid despite the histrionic headline and it's somewhat hilarious that this Xbone debacle has reached the level of people proclaiming "MS HATES SERVICEMEN"



They definitely make some valid points. Region lock is probably the worse thing for servicemen. They need to come up with a better remedy than keep playing 360 because they will stop making games for it before this cycle is over even if they do maintain 'support'.



Repner said:


> Sure, but there is a difference between banning them from online play (which I'd agree with), and bricking their machine and entire "offline" single player library.



Agreed, but that is how many of the PC service work/worked so it isn't exactly abnormal. It is definite incentive for people to not cheat. My issue with both PC services and this is if you let a friend use your account/system and _they_ cheat your system would be bricked. That kind of blows.


----------



## Sicarius

I wouldn't be too worried about no more support for the 360. It's an immensely popular console, and I can see publishers pushing out games for it for a while. 

The PS2 has been "dead" for some time now, and some publishers, like Atlus, thrived on the console and have released games for it for years.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Sicarius said:


> The PS2 has been "dead" for some time now, and some publishers, like Atlus, thrived on the console and have released games for it for years.



Sony still supported the console up until the beginning of this year. The PS2 was still extremely popular, even after the release the PS3. It didn't "die" until January 2013, when production for the console finally ended.


----------



## flint757

Oh I know that, but AAA titles and things people spend weeks discussing/find worth pre-ordering haven't been produced for the PS2 for a long while. I foresee a similar arc occurring and those who wish to not get the XBONE, but still wish to play XBOX, will eventually have less game options for new releases. That will most likely happen before the end of this cycle. Unless this debacle brings a tone more confidence in the 360 for developers, which it might.

Based on the list I'm looking at the only games released in the last couple years have either been in other countries or sports games.


----------



## Don Vito

I think certain sports titles were made in PS2 format up to 2012/2013

....ing legendary.


----------



## texshred777

Bricked system for cheating? .... that. I don't condone cheating, hell, I don't even understand how someone cheats with a console game. I don't understand the desire to cheat, either. Is it such a big problem in the first place? Most of my gaming is single player so I don't think I've ever encountered it.

I guess XBL bans are also for hacked/modded systems to play pirated games, too. Even then, it seems a little far.


----------



## flint757

Well not technically bricked, but your games are tied to your account. If they ban your account any game you have installed that are tied to that account are no longer accessible. Unless you have your resells still available then you might be able to use one to re-install, but I'm just speculating.

In any case, for cheating, banning temporarily or permanently for online play seems more appropriate than just banning your account all together. For hacking/pirating I doubt the user would give a shit that their account got blocked since they wouldn't be playing legit games anyhow.


----------



## texshred777

Bricked may not be an appropriate term, and of course speculation about the ins/outs is premature at this point. 

Regardless, anything beyond banning online play to a particular user seems too much to me. It also makes me worry about the(likely rare) user who gets banned without merit. Again I'm sure it's rare, but happens. That'd be a shitty scenario to not only get banned from online play but lose access to games they paid for.


----------



## Curt

I still have two 1-year XBL subscription cards. So I will be good to go when I do snag one of these. Not getting it(or the PS4 for that matter) at launch, as a new guitar is higher on my list than a new console.


----------



## The Reverend

Curt said:


> I still have two 1-year XBL subscription cards. So I will be good to go when I do snag one of these. Not getting it(or the PS4 for that matter) at launch, as a new guitar is higher on my list than a new console.



This dude has his priorities in place.


----------



## Curt

The Reverend said:


> This dude has his priorities in place.


 
I suppose. 
First time GAS has caused my priorities to line up.


----------



## jonajon91

Xbox One Games At E3 Were Running On Windows 7 With Nvidia GTX Cards?

Just ... the link says it all.


----------



## wankerness

jonajon91 said:


> Xbox One Games At E3 Were Running On Windows 7 With Nvidia GTX Cards?
> 
> Just ... the link says it all.



Isn't that normal for E3, and wasn't Sony doing the same thing?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

wankerness said:


> Isn't that normal for E3, and wasn't Sony doing the same thing?



Some devs that were at the PS4 booth said that they were using Dev kits that were specced similar to PS4s. Microsoft was supposedly using PCs with Nvidia GTX Titan cards.


----------



## Aceshighhhh

wankerness said:


> Isn't that normal for E3, and wasn't Sony doing the same thing?



The Playstation 4 demo's were running on ps4 devkits, which are basically just prototypes with the same or similar hardware. 

And whether or not that's normal, it still doesn't make it right imo. It's a complete misrepresentation of their games. And then people wonder why the finished product ends up looking nothing like the e3 demo.


----------



## Sicarius

Until the consoles are launched, all conferences this year are going to use the DevKits. 

If you cracked open a PS4 dev kit, I think you'd be surprised to find that they're similar to the XBone's.

They want to give the Developers and the Industry people the best possible experience. Sometimes that means the parts that are going into the console just doesn't cut it.


----------



## Aceshighhhh

Sicarius said:


> Until the consoles are launched, all conferences this year are going to use the DevKits.
> 
> If you cracked open a PS4 dev kit, I think you'd be surprised to find that they're similar to the XBone's.
> 
> They want to give the Developers and the Industry people the best possible experience. Sometimes that means the parts that are going into the console just doesn't cut it.



The Xbox One "devkits" were running on PC Desktops equipped with NVIDIA GTX 780 Video Cards.
Xbox One Games At E3 Were Running On Windows 7 With Nvidia GTX Cards?

The PS4 devkits ran on a prototype console with hardware very similar to that of the final consumer relase.


----------



## Mordacain

wankerness said:


> New Xbox 'a sin against all service members' | Army Times | armytimes.com
> 
> Got to say, I didn't see THIS one coming. Their reasons are all entirely valid despite the histrionic headline and it's somewhat hilarious that this Xbone debacle has reached the level of people proclaiming "MS HATES SERVICEMEN"



I gotta say, I did see that one coming. I just didn't think Microsoft would be dumb enough to see it and actually say something to fan the flames and not back down.

I really thought they would see the potential PR shit-storm coming and realize that they should absolutely NOT piss off the service men & women of the United States. I guess I had more faith that an American company wouldn't be that stupid as to piss off the home base.

And this is where Sony excels. They know better than to piss off their home base and that's why they have never not dominated in Japan.


----------



## flint757

Microsoft defends the price


----------



## Osorio




----------



## Joose

If Playstation had Forza, Halo, and better controllers, I'd be all over it.

But, despite the fact that there are some things I don't like about X1, it will be my console of choice.

I wonder if I can setup a little mirror in front of the kinect? Make it look at the ceiling. 


Edit: And before anyone gets on me for the better controllers part; I genuinely dislike Playstation controllers and I have since the original. I don't like where the joysticks are and I don't like the triggers.


----------



## flint757

They make them by 3rd parties. This one is supposedly really good.

FUS1ON Tournament Controller for PS3 - Perfect Analog Control for Tournament Gamers | PowerA

and there are others that are cheaper like afterglow. In time I'm sure there will be some for the PS4. They also make adapters as well.


----------



## Sicarius

People are really touting the feel of the new controller, so maybe hold off and see for yourself when Demo units start showing up at retailers.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I really like the 360 analog stick layout, but I never understood the hate for the Dualshock layout. I don't think it's that bad at all. 

Then again, I've been using the DS ever since it's release, back when I was a wee little shit.


----------



## halomojo

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I really like the 360 analog stick layout, but I never understood the hate for the Dualshock layout. I don't think it's that bad at all.
> 
> Then again, I've been using the remote ever since the Dualshock 1 was released, back when I was a wee little shit.



I don't HATE the dualshock layout, I just think that the off axis joysticks feels much more comfortable to me. There are good 3rd party controller manufacturers nowadays, so it's not really an issue.


----------



## Mordacain

flint757 said:


> They make them by 3rd parties. This one is supposedly really good.
> 
> FUS1ON Tournament Controller for PS3 - Perfect Analog Control for Tournament Gamers | PowerA
> 
> and there are others that are cheaper like afterglow. In time I'm sure there will be some for the PS4. They also make adapters as well.



Awesome, thanks for the link. I tried one I picked up at Gamestop (not an inexpensive one either) but as most third party controllers, the stick sensitivity is way off. 

/Edit - apparently I have the original PowerA controller for PS3.

The controller has honestly been my major hurdle in not loving my PS3 more. It's not that the PS3 controller is bad either, it's just the 360 controller is so much more comfortable to me, and the offset stick position just makes more sense for precision movement I think.

However, I'm leaning towards the PS4 as the first system I pick up, particularly after playing "The Last of Us." Naughty Dog as officially replaced Bungie as my favorite console developer so I really want to play what they put out as it's all been consistently excellent on this generation.


----------



## Sicarius

Everytime I see "Naughty Dog" I think of the old Pro Paintball team..

Now I want a PS4 with a giant ass paw print on it..


----------



## flint757

Xbox One Policies 'Alienated Entire Military'; Entertainment Research Forecasts Trouble

Things aren't looking so good for Microsoft at the moment. 

Visual DRM patent

This won't happen (at least I sincerely hope not ), but that's not why I'm posting this second link. It is ridiculous that companies can (and do) purchase patents for things they have ZERO intent on implementing. Maybe it is just me, but a patent should only be allowed if there is genuine intent to make/sell a product using said patent. After a certain time frame of inactivity they should become null and void. I'm sick of this IP war going on and ATM these companies are fighting for/against each other not the consumers. I mean Directv filed for a similar patent which would only benefit advertisers and this would only benefit the industry if it were ever implemented (and not by enough IMO to justify the invasion of privacy).

One comment summed it up best, our rights as consumers are getting stripped little by little everyday and it either doesn't affect enough of us or isn't a huge deal so we let it slide (I'm admittedly guilty of this sometimes as well). Something similar to price creep (think gas/petrol prices) where it happens so slowly that we accept it little by little. I'm an honest consumer who doesn't pirate, buys new when I can, goes to the movies, pitches in when I don't have to, etc. yet get screwed regularly. It's one thing to implement some sort of reasonable protection, but it never seems to end they just keep piling on and making it more cumbersome all the time.
/rant

phew


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I guess with the DRM "war" going on with Sony and Xbox, I'm glad I'm a Nintendo guy. .... the police. I'm more biased towards Sony since they're giving the publishers the option, while Xbox is like ".... YOU YOU'RE GETTING DRM WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT."

...Just give me my WiiU price drop.


----------



## Sicarius

flint757 said:


> Xbox One Policies 'Alienated Entire Military'; Entertainment Research Forecasts Trouble



I'm sorry I was distracted by a bunch of Cosplay photos, from a gallery on the right side of the page.

what're we talking about?


----------



## Mordacain

flint757 said:


> Xbox One Policies 'Alienated Entire Military'; Entertainment Research Forecasts Trouble
> 
> Things aren't looking so good for Microsoft at the moment.
> 
> Visual DRM patent
> 
> This won't happen (at least I sincerely hope not ), but that's not why I'm posting this second link. It is ridiculous that companies can (and do) purchase patents for things they have ZERO intent on implementing. Maybe it is just me, but a patent should only be allowed if there is genuine intent to make/sell a product using said patent. After a certain time frame of inactivity they should become null and void. I'm sick of this IP war going on and ATM these companies are fighting for/against each other not the consumers. I mean Directv filed for a similar patent which would only benefit advertisers and this would only benefit the industry if it were ever implemented (and not by enough IMO to justify the invasion of privacy).
> 
> One comment summed it up best, our rights as consumers are getting stripped little by little everyday and it either doesn't affect enough of us or isn't a huge deal so we let it slide (I'm admittedly guilty of this sometimes as well). Something similar to price creep (think gas/petrol prices) where it happens so slowly that we accept it little by little. I'm an honest consumer who doesn't pirate, buys new when I can, goes to the movies, pitches in when I don't have to, etc. yet get screwed regularly. It's one thing to implement some sort of reasonable protection, but it never seems to end they just keep piling on and making it more cumbersome all the time.
> /rant
> 
> phew



 I had been discussing all of this with my wife leading up to E3 and had been steadily dismissing all the hyper fear-mongering and speculation. I still don't think that Microsoft's DRM is as invasive as it could have been. However, I had never really thought about the military component until someone on this forum brought it up and I really wanted to give MS the benefit of the doubt that maybe they just hadn't thought of it either. 

Oddly enough, even if Microsoft need to activate the game, they could do so in the same manner that Steam does; where an "Offline Mode" is available and always you to play anything you have installed as long as you've already installed it and Steam has your user information stored. There is literally, no reason to have to check every 24 hours to make sure you're still you.

That being said, since Sony has given the consumer the option of not acquiescing to having additional restrictions I'm finding myself hard-pressed to not support them for doing it.

Halo is really my only reason to pick up a XB1 now and that really saddens me as I've really enjoyed the way MS had provided a viable alternative to Sony. It seems the "evil empire" role has shifted once again


----------



## Mordacain

Well, Titanfall is apparently an XB1 exclusive, at least for now:

E3 2013: Vince Zampella Discusses Respawn's Titanfall - IGN

And as I expected, they are leveraging the Cloud for AI processing so it's integral to the game and not something they'll be able to work around on the PS4 easily. PC is still not out of the question as far as that goes though...


----------



## flint757

Titanfall is being released same day as xbone on pc.


----------



## Mordacain

flint757 said:


> Titanfall is being released same day as xbone on pc.



So confusing... read a half dozen articles from different sources all listing different platform confirmations. 

Well, as long as it's on PC I'm happy. Unless I need to get a GTX 780 to play it...then I'll be a bit pissed


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

flint757 said:


> Titanfall is being released same day as xbone on pc.



There's also been some confusion about it being a Windows 8 exclusive. It's not. It'll run on previous version.

Also, some people are reporting that some Gamestops aren't taking preorders from the XBone and don't even have the SKU in their systems.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

I sortof understand the argument in favor of the online check-in requirement the Xbone has ("What's the big deal, everyone's online all the time nowadays anyway"), but a thought I share a recent experience I had that exemplifies how it can be problematic.

[Preemptive TL;DR: Even people who can afford internet can find themselves without it for unexpected reasons, and thus without the ability to play an Xbone.]

I'll admit that when I'm at home, I _am_ online all the time, and I _can_ afford high-speed internet every month, easily. However, shit can still go wrong and leave a fella high and dry for a while. Case in point: I live and work in South Korea, and I recently switched to a new place of work and a new apartment. When I moved to the new apartment, I had to sign up with the internet company individually (WiFi was included automatically with my last apartment, so I never had to worry about paying for it). No big deal, really, I just had my Korean coworker call the internet company, give them my info, and set it up to deduct the payment from my bank account every month. Boom. Done.

Or so I thought.

Last Tuesday, I got home from work to discover that I had no internet. This baffled me, so I called my coworker to ask her to call the company to see what the deal was. Apparently someone somewhere along the line had entered the wrong ID number in my account file, so when they tried to withdraw the money from the bank every month, the bank denied their request because their numbers didn't match. This went on for three months, as I puttered around online blissfully unaware that it wasn't being paid for until it was cut off. 

Now obviously as soon as I found out there was a problem, I just went online and paid my account balance in full myself, and expected that to be the end of it. That was eight days ago, and my internet still hasn't been turned back on. My coworker has called to pester them several times, and today I was told it _should_ be back when I get home from work, but I'm not holding my breath.

At any rate, I've been without internet at home for eight days, despite having access to and the ability to pay for high-speed internet. With the Xbone, that would mean I wouldn't have been able to play games at all for over a week (boo hoo, God forbid, I know). Luckily I game on PC now, so I could just set Steam to offline mode and have a ball. Lord knows I needed to, since I have fuc_k_ all else to do with no goddamned internet .


----------



## Mordacain

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> There's also been some confusion about it being a Windows 8 exclusive. It's not. It'll run on previous version.
> 
> Also, some people are reporting that some Gamestops aren't taking preorders from the XBone and don't even have the SKU in their systems.



Not surprised since the Used Game market is Gamestop's real money maker. Despite Microsoft allowing trades on 1st party games, 3rd party publishers could put whatever they want in place. If I was Gamestop, I wouldn't want the headache of trying to sort what can be traded in with what can't.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Cool story, bro.



Welcome to Deep In The Taint of the South, USA. 

But seriously, hope your internet gets fixed soon.


----------



## flint757

Grand Moff Tim said:


> With the Xbone, that would mean I wouldn't have been able to play games at all for over a week (boo hoo, God forbid, I know).



Thanks to region lock you won't be playing an XBONE at all in South Korea.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

flint757 said:


> Thanks to *the existence of PC gaming* you won't be playing an XBONE at all in South Korea.




ftfy


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Let's observe what happens with this:

Microsoft to backtrack on Xbox One games DRM and "always online" | whathifi.com


----------



## tacotiklah

Looks like microsoft is back-peddling so hard, they are on the verge of time-travel:
http://www.giantbomb.com/articles/microsoft-to-pull-complete-reversal-on-xbox-one-dr/1100-4673/

Goddammit, ninja'd.


----------



## flint757

JMO, but too little, too late for me. It wasn't the restrictions that turned me off completely (although it certainly didn't help ), it was their responses. They can suck it as far as I'm concerned.

Although I'm glad this happened either way. Victory for consumers! We CAN make a difference.


----------



## Repner

Hah. Microsoft have been trying to tell us what we want for a few years now. So out of character for them to actually cave like this.


----------



## tacotiklah

I still have hangups with the Kinect. I want a version of the console that doesn't have voice commands or to camera to watch my every move. If they can make that change as well, then I'll consider buying one down the road...


----------



## flint757

I figured they might cave, but I thought they would wait a month and let the heat die down first. I figured they'd wing themselves slowly into the decision little by little and as innocuously as possible. Doing it this way, if in fact true, makes it look more like a D'oh moment which if they were smarter they'd want to avoid IMO.


----------



## flint757

ghstofperdition said:


> I still have hangups with the Kinect. I want a version of the console that doesn't have voice commands or to camera to watch my every move. If they can make that change as well, then I'll consider buying one down the road...



I don't mind the idea of it as I'd probably eventually buy it anyhow if I were to buy the console. It'd just be nice if it could be disconnected. It isn't because I think anyone is spying on me either.


----------



## Repner

ghstofperdition said:


> I still have hangups with the Kinect. I want a version of the console that doesn't have voice commands or to camera to watch my every move. If they can make that change as well, then I'll consider buying one down the road...


I could imagine if there was an XBone LAN party. Really amusing if a poorly thought out conversation caused every console in the room to turn off at the worst moment.


----------



## ScottyB724

edit: super ninja'd but I'll leave the quote for other lazy people like myself.

boom.
Your Feedback Matters



> Last week at E3, the excitement, creativity and future of our industry was on display for a global audience.
> 
> For us, the future comes in the form of Xbox One, a system designed to be the best place to play games this year and for many years to come. As is our heritage with Xbox, we designed a system that could take full advantage of advances in technology in order to deliver a breakthrough in game play and entertainment. We imagined a new set of benefits such as easier roaming, family sharing, and new ways to try and buy games. We believe in the benefits of a connected, digital future.
> 
> Since unveiling our plans for Xbox One, my team and I have heard directly from many of you, read your comments and listened to your feedback. I would like to take the opportunity today to thank you for your assistance in helping us to reshape the future of Xbox One.
> 
> You told us how much you loved the flexibility you have today with games delivered on disc. The ability to lend, share, and resell these games at your discretion is of incredible importance to you. Also important to you is the freedom to play offline, for any length of time, anywhere in the world.
> 
> So, today I am announcing the following changes to Xbox One and how you can play, share, lend, and resell your games exactly as you do today on Xbox 360. Here is what that means:
> 
> An internet connection will not be required to play offline Xbox One games  After a one-time system set-up with a new Xbox One, you can play any disc based game without ever connecting online again. There is no 24 hour connection requirement and you can take your Xbox One anywhere you want and play your games, just like on Xbox 360.
> 
> Trade-in, lend, resell, gift, and rent disc based games just like you do today  There will be no limitations to using and sharing games, it will work just as it does today on Xbox 360.
> 
> In addition to buying a disc from a retailer, you can also download games from Xbox Live on day of release. If you choose to download your games, you will be able to play them offline just like you do today. Xbox One games will be playable on any Xbox One console -- there will be no regional restrictions.
> 
> These changes will impact some of the scenarios we previously announced for Xbox One. The sharing of games will work as it does today, you will simply share the disc. Downloaded titles cannot be shared or resold. Also, similar to today, playing disc based games will require that the disc be in the tray.
> 
> We appreciate your passion, support and willingness to challenge the assumptions of digital licensing and connectivity. While we believe that the majority of people will play games online and access the cloud for both games and entertainment, we will give consumers the choice of both physical and digital content. We have listened and we have heard loud and clear from your feedback that you want the best of both worlds.
> 
> Thank you again for your candid feedback. Our team remains committed to listening, taking feedback and delivering a great product for you later this year.


----------



## flint757

I hope no one has annoying siblings if they buy this.  When I was little I'd torture the shit out of my family members. I could see a little sister or brother or even an older one just walking into the room and saying 'XBOX Off'.

[EDIT]

Also, it kind of sucks that some of the more cool features will no longer work because of them back peddling. The good outweighs the bad though. Still not buying it.


----------



## RustInPeace

Still buying ps4.


----------



## Mordacain

flint757 said:


> I figured they might cave, but I thought they would wait a month and let the heat die down first. I figured they'd wing themselves slowly into the decision little by little and as innocuously as possible. Doing it this way, if in fact true, makes it look more like a D'oh moment which if they were smarter they'd want to avoid IMO.



 I still think it's better they came to their senses sooner rather than later. There's still plenty of time to repair their image. At least I don't have to feel bad for picking one up when Halo 5 releases.

If they really wanted to make in-roads in making amends, they could drop the price of Microsoft games to $49.99


----------



## asher

....ing god dammit. Seriously, banding together with some friends so you can share your games library is WAY BETTER THAN DISC SALES.

and this axes disc free play, which also axes some REALLY COOL STUFF.


----------



## Repner

You will like what we tell you to like. You will like what we tell you to like. You will like what we tell you to f***ing like. Still not buying it? 



Oh, of course we were listening to you the entire time! You know your feedback matters to us. *awkward embarrassed laugh*.


----------



## asher

Repner said:


> You will like what we tell you to like. You will like what we tell you to like. You will like what we tell you to f***ing like. Still not buying it?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, of course we were listening to you the entire time! You know your feedback matters to us. *awkward embarrassed laugh*.



Honestly I'm actually surprised they backpedaled, given that there was actually some legitimate decision making going on in the design - though it was, unfortunately, presented and marketed incredibly poorly.


----------



## Scar Symmetry

Microsoft are the Internet's bitch. Eventually the Internet will win every argument. This is a good day for modern history.


----------



## Mordacain

asher said:


> ....ing god dammit. Seriously, banding together with some friends so you can share your games library is WAY BETTER THAN DISC SALES.
> 
> and this axes disc free play, which also axes some REALLY COOL STUFF.



Yea, I miss that aspect as well, it did sound pretty cool. 

What would be really keen is if you could have a choice


----------



## asher

Mordacain said:


> Yea, I miss that aspect as well, it did sound pretty cool.
> 
> What would be really keen is if you could have a choice



Yeah, but then you have really sloppy stuff like... you're playing a game that you went in on with a friend. Then he decides he's taking his console offline, turns off the heartbeat, and you get ejected and lose access to the game because it's on his account.


----------



## Mordacain

asher said:


> Yeah, but then you have really sloppy stuff like... you're playing a game that you went in on with a friend. Then he decides he's taking his console offline, turns off the heartbeat, and you get ejected and lose access to the game because it's on his account.



Hmmm, fair point, hadn't really thought about that. Honestly, did they clarify how things would work to that granularity or are we just extrapolating based on they described it would work?


----------



## Repner

And with the new U turn, they reveal the new name for the console...Xbox 180.


----------



## flint757

asher said:


> ....ing god dammit. Seriously, banding together with some friends so you can share your games library is WAY BETTER THAN DISC SALES.
> 
> and this axes disc free play, which also axes some REALLY COOL STUFF.



Agreed, some stuff got the axe that was cool, but the trade off wasn't worth it. It was too constricted. For it to work it would have needed more flexibility. If they had went in to the game with this mentality they would have gotten away with it, but because they went all in completely backpedaling is the only PR move that would allow many gamers to forgive them so to speak.



Mordacain said:


> Yea, I miss that aspect as well, it did sound pretty cool.
> 
> What would be really keen is if you could have a choice





This.



asher said:


> Yeah, but then you have really sloppy stuff like... you're playing a game that you went in on with a friend. Then he decides he's taking his console offline, turns off the heartbeat, and you get ejected and lose access to the game because it's on his account.



Maybe, but better than losing your internet for a day or week or month and not being able to play at all. Or limited resale/use in general., etc.

Because the infrastructure/money just isn't there for everyone involved sticking with what works or taking a more flexible route are the only 2 options. Going all in neglects many of its consumer base which is why many people were upset. Options.


----------



## asher

Mordacain said:


> Hmmm, fair point, hadn't really thought about that. Honestly, did they clarify how things would work to that granularity or are we just extrapolating based on they described it would work?



Well, you need the heartbeat to verify stuff about the game sharing, and they straight said that downloaded games can't be shared, and disc shares work like now, so that new stuff is out. And if disc is required for games, you can't be playing another one while you wait for Halo 5 to find a match and then instantly swap games...


----------



## flint757

You may be able to if they are downloaded or at least one is downloaded (not from disk, but to begin with)


----------



## asher

flint757 said:


> stuff



Except their system was actually _more_ flexible than Steam is, especially given how ....ing buggy it is to find no internet connection, try to go offline, and then have Steam tell you it can't connect to servers.


----------



## Mordacain

asher said:


> Well, you need the heartbeat to verify stuff about the game sharing, and they straight said that downloaded games can't be shared, and disc shares work like now, so that new stuff is out. And if disc is required for games, you can't be playing another one while you wait for Halo 5 to find a match and then instantly swap games...



I suppose you could still instantly switch between games if you downloaded them from live though...


----------



## flint757

asher said:


> Except their system was actually _more_ flexible than Steam is, especially given how ....ing buggy it is to find no internet connection, try to go offline, and then have Steam tell you it can't connect to servers.



Steam can be offline indefinitely pretty much if you wanted. I've had no issues with that whatsoever.


----------



## asher

flint757 said:


> Steam can be offline indefinitely pretty much if you wanted. I've had no issues with that whatsoever.



I've had my laptop in offline mode for a few weeks. I actually got kicked OUT of it the other day because it suddenly said there was no account information on the computer.

My point was that, to get offline mode to work correctly, you have to be online, and then reboot in offline mode. If you're in online, then boot it and find no internet, it errors out trying to go offline and you can't do anything.


----------



## Mordacain

asher said:


> Except their system was actually _more_ flexible than Steam is, especially given how ....ing buggy it is to find no internet connection, try to go offline, and then have Steam tell you it can't connect to servers.



Yea, that's a pain. An infrequent pain, but it has bummed me out on more than one occasion. 

Honestly, despite some of the service delivery issues I've had with Steam, the frequent sales has completely replaced any ill feeling I've had towards Valve them with nothing but good will.

PS+ is starting to do that since I've started playing on my PS3 again.

So, maybe Microsoft will take note and start hosting regular sales on content.


----------



## Mordacain

asher said:


> I've had my laptop in offline mode for a few weeks. I actually got kicked OUT of it the other day because it suddenly said there was no account information on the computer.
> 
> My point was that, to get offline mode to work correctly, you have to be online, and then reboot in offline mode. If you're in online, then boot it and find no internet, it errors out trying to go offline and you can't do anything.



I've had that happen typically when switching between Steam on desktop and Steam on laptop, since you can only be signed in at one place at a time. So, for offline mode to work on my laptop, I'd have to sign in after again after having been signed in on my desktop.

One of Steam's more annoying quirks that they should work out. I get why they do that though, since it would be easy to pass your Steam account around to friends otherwise.


----------



## flint757

asher said:


> I've had my laptop in offline mode for a few weeks. I actually got kicked OUT of it the other day because it suddenly said there was no account information on the computer.
> 
> My point was that, to get offline mode to work correctly, you have to be online, and then reboot in offline mode. If you're in online, then boot it and find no internet, it errors out trying to go offline and you can't do anything.



Ahhh, well I've stated a few pages back that the policies M$ was implementing were the same as Steam so people should chill out. The issue is you go into using Steam knowing you HAVE to have internet since it is all downloads pretty much. Many people, I'd be willing to bet, buy consoles because they don't have internet or don't like to fuss with such things (well maybe not many, but some). 

What I meant by flexible anyhow was like adding an offline mode and then it just disable the features until you are online again (Steam does this). Most people won't be offline so that allows for some leeway for when servers, ISP's etc. go down or if you're traveling. In the military's case they may not have internet at all and definitely wouldn't want a camera on army bases either. These type of things they needed to be more flexible on. These were the things they were being inflexible about. 

Steam is pretty much irrelevant in this instance.


----------



## asher

flint757 said:


> Ahhh, well I've stated a few pages back that the policies M$ was implementing were the same as Steam so people should chill out. The issue is you go into using Steam knowing you HAVE to have internet since it is all downloads pretty much. Many people, I'd be willing to bet, buy consoles because they don't have internet or don't like to fuss with such things (well maybe not many, but some).
> 
> What I meant by flexible anyhow was like adding an offline mode and then it just disable the features until you are online again. Most people won't be offline so that allows for some leeway for when servers, ISP's etc. go down or if you're traveling. In the military's case they may not have internet at all and definitely wouldn't want a camera on army bases either. These type of things they needed to be more flexible on. These were the things they were being inflexible about.
> 
> Steam is pretty much irrelevant in this instance.



Well, sorta. Yeah, I (clearly lol) think people were stupidly really overreacting and not actually thinking about what was going on. Steam comes into the picture because it's a thing that implements lots of similar stuff and has become wildly successful.

I do get people being bummed about the internet stuff, but I seriously doubt that most of the people who would buy the console these days are going to have very many problems with it when the thing gets into their homes. Especially at the higher price point, and as internet service continues to expand.


----------



## Mordacain

And relevant:


----------



## Joose

Well, I was planning on buying it over the PS4 anyway, so now it's just a sealed deal. Also, if anyone didn't think this was going to happen... I dunno what to say lol.


----------



## habicore_5150

Captain Butterscotch said:


> Let's observe what happens with this:
> 
> Microsoft to backtrack on Xbox One games DRM and "always online" | whathifi.com



I'm hoping that MS will keep their word throughout the entire life cycle of this machine, doesn't mean I'll get the thing more than likely


----------



## Sicarius

next thing you know they're going to sell the thing at $350, just to beat Sony.


----------



## Tyler

Your Feedback Matters looks like they saw just how much competition they had with the ps4 and released this


----------



## Joose

Sicarius said:


> next thing you know they're going to sell the thing at $350, just to beat Sony.



That would be the tits, but unlikely lol.

I wouldn't doubt a $50 drop though. Either way, it's worth 500 to me. As is the PS4.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

This is fantastic news for gamers and consumers as a whole. It appears that nerd rage can change things. But I still say a big F uck You to Microsoft for blatantly not giving a shit, _knowing_ that people wouldn't want this stuff and trying to bully them into it anyway. They were condescending and haughty in every interview regarding the DRM stance and to me that tells me what the company thinks of its customers.


----------



## The Reverend

Captain Butterscotch said:


> This is fantastic news for gamers and consumers as a whole. It appears that nerd rage can change things. But I still say a big F uck You to Microsoft for blatantly not giving a shit, _knowing_ that people wouldn't want this stuff and trying to bully them into it anyway. They were condescending and haughty in every interview regarding the DRM stance and to me that tells me what the company thinks of its customers.



QFT


----------



## flint757

Joose said:


> That would be the tits, but unlikely lol.
> 
> I wouldn't doubt a $50 drop though. Either way, it's worth 500 to me. As is the PS4.



$460 would match Sony if you include Sony Move.


----------



## groverj3

I'm guessing that M$ was betting on Sony doing something similar with the PS4 DRM. I'm thinking that both companies were waiting to see what the other was going to do in order to undercut the other on price/DRM policies. They lost out by going forward first.

It wasn't going to affect my buying the console or not, but I'm glad they went back on what they planned. However, I would like to be able to play games without the disc. It isn't 1996. I'd be cool with needing the disc when playing offline, but using online DRM when connected to Live.

Rather than people trying to "take a stand" against the "evil empire" and being all butthurt over their (redacted) policies why not look at this as a company listening to the gamers and taking their feedback into consideration?


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

I hope gamers have some integrity and principals and realize that MS was going to bone all of us and ONLY isnt because Sony stood up for all of us.
The damage is done. I'm still happy with my PS4 preorder.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I wonder how Edge feels about this, after that "SONY PLANS TO DO IT TOO" article.





groverj3 said:


> Rather than people trying to "take a stand" against the "evil empire" and being all butthurt over their (redacted) policies why not look at this as a company listening to the gamers and taking their feedback into consideration?



Because of how arrogant they were about their new policies, even telling people to buy a console from a previous generation.


----------



## Mordacain

groverj3 said:


> I'm guessing that M$ was betting on Sony doing something similar with the PS4 DRM. I'm thinking that both companies were waiting to see what the other was going to do in order to undercut the other on price/DRM policies. They lost out by going forward first.
> 
> It wasn't going to affect my buying the console or not, but I'm glad they went back on what they planned. However, I would like to be able to play games without the disc. It isn't 1996. I'd be cool with needing the disc when playing offline, but using online DRM when connected to Live.
> 
> Rather than people trying to "take a stand" against the "evil empire" and being all butthurt over their (redacted) policies why not look at this as a company listening to the gamers and taking their feedback into consideration?



 and I don't think MS is necessarily anymore or less evil than Sony. Sony just outmaneuvered MS at every turn this go round.

That being said, I think saying "Sony stood up for all gamers" is not really accurate. Sony did it's fair share of DRM and gamer crippling (with the PSP / PS3 firmware updates, removing support for Linux, etc) in this past generation. Sony just read the tide of consumer opinion, saw the opportunity to take the lead back from MS without any expense and made a calculated decision. It's really just as simple as that.


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

Mordacain said:


> That being said, I think saying "Sony stood up for all gamers" is not really accurate. Sony did it's fair share of DRM and gamer crippling (with the PSP / PS3 firmware updates, removing support for Linux, etc) in this past generation. Sony just read the tide of consumer opinion, saw the opportunity to take the lead back from MS without any expense and made a calculated decision. It's really just as simple as that.



I completely disagree. They played with the idea of drm in the past. Everyone has. I dont blame a company for experimenting. But the ONLY reason xbox is changing is because sony experimented and knew it was just a bad road to go down. 
When anyone anywhere is playing an xbox1 without internet or playing a used game on it, thank Sony. Simple as that.


----------



## Mordacain

7 Strings of Hate said:


> I completely disagree. They played with the idea of drm in the past. Everyone has. I dont blame a company for experimenting. But the ONLY reason xbox is changing is because sony experimented and knew it was just a bad road to go down.
> When anyone anywhere is playing an xbox1 without internet or playing a used game on it, thank Sony. Simple as that.



No. I refuse to thank Sony for what is just a calculated PR move. 

What I will do is thank myself and the gamer community for being outraged and ripping on Microsoft's conduct and comments in defense of a flawed business strategy.

Sony didn't cause Microsoft to reverse it's decision, they just gave consumers an option to choose from.

More than anything, the Army / Navy Times articles probably did the most good in causing Microsoft to reverse it's position.

/EDIT and Sony did more than just play with DRM. They released an entire console built on the concept of Digital Only DRM - PSP Go. They certainly had their own history book to reference when calculating their decision on what to do with the PS4 when it came to DRM


----------



## Curt

MS dropping the DRM policies made the decision to get one that much easier for most.

Of course, I was planning on it from the beginning. As well as getting the PS4...
So my stance on the matter now would not really change if they had kept their policies.


----------



## Osorio

I have to say I'm disappointed that they didn't follow through with the original, awful, plan. I would have sincerely liked to know how much it would ACTUALLY impact sales and everything else. I'm surprised as a whole that they backed down at all. Microsoft seems the kind of company that would go down in flames saying they were right and everybody else was just backwards (because that's basically what they actually did).

On the other hand, I'm immensely happy that the costumer has, for once, prevailed; and we managed to avoid this disaster from happening. Good on us all.


----------



## Randyrhoads123

Seriously, if anyone believes that either Sony or MS care about anything other than $$$, they're deluded. They didn't get to be the multi-billion dollar companies they are by swaying to every customer complaint. They got there because they're smart, and they know what people will buy. MS would've probably sold around the same amount of Xbox Ones even without the reversal of their DRM, but they knew all the enraged gamers of reddit and neogaf might be a possible threat to their image and advertising, which they were when stories leaked into the mainstream news, so they appeased the internet rage machine by changing something that really wasn't that big of a deal in the first place.

Neither company is a savior of gaming, they're just doing what they think is best for business. They're the same, Sony has gamers in the palm of their hand now, so I'm sure they'll be happy with sales. MS still has some catching up to do with their damn advertising dept. What a mess this has been for them.

edit: The one thing that sucks now, is that it does not appear that family sharing will be available anymore. Sharing digital games to 10 of your friends seemed pretty sweet and now that feature is out. Hope other convenient things aren't thrown out the window because of this.


----------



## Mordacain

venneer said:


> I have to say I'm disappointed that they didn't follow through with the original, awful, plan. I would have sincerely liked to know how much it would ACTUALLY impact sales and everything else. I'm surprised as a whole that they backed down at all. Microsoft seems the kind of company that would go down in flames saying they were right and everybody else was just backwards (because that's basically what they actually did).
> 
> On the other hand, I'm immensely happy that the costumer has, for once, prevailed; and we managed to avoid this disaster from happening. Good on us all.



I'm glad they didn't. I like having competition in the game arena. I don't really prefer either company, but close competition necessitates a better environment for the consumer. This means better 1st party titles, competitive pricing and actively courting 3rd party support.

If MS had continued with their original scheme, Sony would likely have dominated and depending on their losses, MS might well have pulled out of the hardware market altogether. That would leave Sony unopposed and with a monopoly. Then they could charge whatever they want and come up with whatever restrictions against the consumer they wanted. 

And no, I don't consider Nintendo to be real competition for Sony / Microsoft, they cater to a completely different market by and large and just don't care about 3rd party publishers one way or the other.


----------



## flint757

Randyrhoads123 said:


> edit: The one thing that sucks now, is that it does not appear that family sharing will be available anymore. Sharing digital games to 10 of your friends seemed pretty sweet and now that feature is out. Hope other convenient things aren't thrown out the window because of this.



That does indeed suck, BUT wasn't it setup so only one person could play at a time anyhow? It's less convenient, but it is hardly a huge deal. Then again I don't game with or have family states away or anything like that either. It could have been really annoying though. 

They pretty much said a lot of fairly cool features are out the window.

They didn't need to kill it completely. They could have just added an offline mode, but the pressure was on so they had to make a grand gesture.


----------



## Bekanor

I'm of a mind that they planned to do this from day one. Get everyone nice and angry with the announcement of horrible DRM, then recant on said restrictions and watch the collective wave of relief turns into sales.

There's no way they didn't know that people would react so unfavourably to their proposed architecture. The way this stuff was delivered and the awful way in which consumer concerns were handled (especially the thing with basically telling servicemen and everyone else without an internet connection to go screw themselves) is way too hard lined an approach to take, even for Microsoft. 

Nothing charms people more than a redemption story. A greedy corporate giant held to bear by end users, sees the error of its ways and makes things right. People eat that shit up.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Bekanor said:


> I'm of a mind that they planned to do this from day one. Get everyone nice and angry with the announcement of horrible DRM, then recant on said restrictions and watch the collective wave of relief turns into sales.
> 
> There's no way they didn't know that people would react so unfavourably to their proposed architecture. The way this stuff was delivered and the awful way in which consumer concerns were handled (especially the thing with basically telling servicemen and everyone else without an internet connection to go screw themselves) is way too hard lined an approach to take, even for Microsoft.
> 
> Nothing charms people more than a redemption story. A greedy corporate giant held to bear by end users, sees the error of its ways and makes things right. People eat that shit up.



I don't agree purely because of the beating their rep and name has taken.


----------



## Mordacain

Bekanor said:


> I'm of a mind that they planned to do this from day one. Get everyone nice and angry with the announcement of horrible DRM, then recant on said restrictions and watch the collective wave of relief turns into sales.
> 
> There's no way they didn't know that people would react so unfavourably to their proposed architecture. The way this stuff was delivered and the awful way in which consumer concerns were handled (especially the thing with basically telling servicemen and everyone else without an internet connection to go screw themselves) is way too hard lined an approach to take, even for Microsoft.
> 
> Nothing charms people more than a redemption story. A greedy corporate giant held to bear by end users, sees the error of its ways and makes things right. People eat that shit up.



I don't think gamers eat that shit up. Do your average crowd of asshole teen/tweens screaming homophobic / sexist slurs into the mic on X-Box Live strike you as the forgiving types?



Captain Butterscotch said:


> I don't agree purely because of the beating their rep and name has taken.



Yea, I have to agree with this. I can't think it was an intentional move. They took a calculated risk and I honestly don't think they thought the backlash would be so vehement.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Bekanor said:


> I'm of a mind that they planned to do this from day one. Get everyone nice and angry with the announcement of horrible DRM, then recant on said restrictions and watch the collective wave of relief turns into sales.



Or... They could have not done this shit in the first place, make the Kinect optional, and actually HAVE a bigger chance.

This is the case of a company trying to change the way console game sales work and hoping that other companies follow suit, only to have it backfire in their face. If anything, this makes them look desperate, with all the flouting they did with their DRM in the passed week.

They're in a better situation now, but their image is bruised a good bit. Would be interesting to see if they can fix it up until the release date. I'm pretty sure this won't delay the launch, since it's only a patch.


----------



## Mordacain

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Or... They could have not done this shit in the first place, make the Kinect optional, and actually HAVE a bigger chance.
> 
> This is the case of a company trying to change the way console game sales work and hoping that other companies follow suit, only to have it backfire in their face. If anything, this makes them look desperate, with all the flouting they did with their DRM in the passed week.
> 
> They're in a better situation now, but their image is bruised a good bit. Would be interesting to see if they can fix it up until the release date. I'm pretty sure this won't delay the launch, since it's only a patch.



I'm interested to see what they do to try and repair their image. I know Microsoft is used to being everyone's punching bag to an extent with Windows but I think they fell under the 3rd console curse and started thinking everyone loved them and they could do no wrong (like Sega, Nintendo & Sony before them).

/Edit - I think if they work on making Xbox-Live comparable with PS+ in terms of the Instant Game Collection and offering a different system tier without a bundled Kinect, then they'll be in good shape.

They still can't do anything to halt the early momentum Sony has gained though. The train is rolling hot.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

First half is him trying to be funny and vulgar. About five minutes in, he makes some good points. I'm REALLY hoping Microsoft isn't greedy enough to do this.


----------



## Bekanor

Mordacain said:


> I don't think gamers eat that shit up. Do your average crowd of asshole teen/tweens screaming homophobic / sexist slurs into the mic on X-Box Live strike you as the forgiving types?



Forgiving? No.

Narcissistic enough to be completely swayed by the notion that their outcry brought a world leading corporation into line? Yes.

I'm probably projecting all over this but it just feels like there's something sneaky going on. All the contradicting info about the DRM coming out of various Microsoft people after the initial announcements, the incredibly quick 180 on this after touting how much of the system is based around things being this way. It just doesn't add up to something as simple as "Microsoft are dumb" for me, they've been in the business for too long to not be able to expect how people respond to this sort of thing, nor do I believe for a second that they're that out of touch with the market. No I still think it's a bit fishy.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Bekanor said:


> It just doesn't add up to something as simple as "Microsoft are dumb"



I don't think this is the case, but that there was just a lot of confusion because of poor PR. No one could give a clear answer about what was going on, while Sony was pretty clear about it.

This, or they plan to remove it at launch and eventually re-patch it in. Who knows?


----------



## flint757

They were banking on the industry seeing the green and following suit. It was a 50/50 shot that Sony might follow suit. Instead they didn't and they couldn't immediately undo it. That being said, they did it much sooner than I expected. Not necessarily dumb, just a gamble.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> This, or they plan to remove it at launch and eventually re-patch it in. Who knows?



The more I think about it, the more likely this scenario is. 

In a few months/years, they reintroduce the same concepts but with different language and in a much better light. Gamers slowly come into the circle. 

I honestly think that this sort of complete architectural revamp is something that should have been done slowly over the course of this generation's cycle. Instead of saying, "Over the next few years, we plan to implement these really cool features..." they said "This is how it is now. If you don't like it then you can just sit in the corner and play with your old toy."


----------



## Mordacain

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't think this is the case, but that there was just a lot of confusion because of poor PR. No one could give a clear answer about what was going on, while Sony was pretty clear about it.
> 
> This, or they plan to remove it at launch and eventually re-patch it in. Who knows?



Well, any system has the capability for it. However, the publishers would have to manufacture their discs with specific codes already on each individual disc, keep track of the codes and then report them to MS so they could later add DRM after the fact. If you're talking about existing titles that is.

Any company, Sony or Nintendo included, could always patch their system firmware to work with whatever DRM system is devised on media going forward. So that's a worry with any company.

I honestly think Sony was on the fence about whether to include DRM or not, especially given their lack of comment on that aspect. E3 was the first time they revealed their intent and they could have made that decision at any point up to the announcement. They just let MS lead, gave them enough rope to hang themselves and then turn around and come out the hero.


----------



## Bekanor

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't think this is the case, but that there was just a lot of confusion because of poor PR. No one could give a clear answer about what was going on, while Sony was pretty clear about it.
> 
> This, or they plan to remove it at launch and eventually re-patch it in. Who knows?



Well it seems to be the biggest companies that are the worst at PR. Still there's a few things swimming around in my head that are feeding this conspiracy theory of mine. If you don't mind the stream of consciousness, here are just a few.

PS4 and XBone running on incredibly similar hardware architecture, no striking differentiation in feature set. Controversy seems easier mechanism to spotlight product than pushing comparisons. 

Culture shift in younger generation sees "social media iconoclast" becoming a regular past time for a wide section of the target market. Risk/reward strategy in goading this segment and then placating it. 

Public image VS consumer apathy. If MS had simply not implemented the proposed DRM from the outset, it would have simply been ignored, being status quo. However going this way they provoke active discussion of the topic, removing DRM shows consideration of consumer concerns, the very thing everyone was accusing MS of being bereft of only a week ago. 


I'm sure the various MS stakeholders wouldn't allow this sort of overly complex, hyper risky strategy to be put in place but it's fun to think about.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Mordacain said:


> I honestly think Sony was on the fence about whether to include DRM or not, especially given their lack of comment on that aspect. E3 was the first time they revealed their intent and they could have made that decision at any point up to the announcement. They just let MS lead, gave them enough rope to hang themselves and then turn around and come out the hero.



I think that a big reason that Sony was keeping their information so close to the chest was because they saw the storm that was brewing over the Xbone DRM leaks and wanted to see how it played out. I truly believe that they were going to implement equally draconian DRM as the Xbone but seized the opportunity before them. Brilliantly, I might add. Their presentation, as far as the sharing of disks and whatnot, was fantastically done. 

As against the DRM and 24 probation/check in as I am, I am sad to see that we can't just install the friggin game and be done with it so I can switch screens instantly. If I can do it on PC then why can't I just do it with the Xbox? That's silly.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Xbox One DRM policy changes waited on gamers knowing &#8220;complete story&#8221; | VG247



> Finally, Whitten could not give any reassurance that Microsoft will not change its policies in the future.


----------



## flint757

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I honestly think that this sort of complete architectural revamp is something that should have been done slowly over the course of this generation's cycle. Instead of saying, "Over the next few years, we plan to implement these really cool features..." they said "This is how it is now. If you don't like it then you can just sit in the corner and play with your old toy."



While I agree about a slower process being better, if I were against the idea all together I'd be pissed if I had spent $500 for system that was going to screw me down the road (from the perspective of someone who didn't want it all at least).


----------



## Joose

I don't think MS planned to do this, at all. They've taken a beating over the original plan.

I think that they thought they could come to E3, beat their chests and everyone would just give in because "fcuk Playstation".

Nope!

I was going to buy one anyway, but not because of true system preference; not this go around, both of these machines sound incredible. But, because of Forza Motorsport 5 and Halo 5. Mostly Forza. Yeah, MS, I was buying it because Forza is an Xbox exclusive. NOT because of loyalty. 

Still somewhat irritated with them, but I'll get over it. Don't like Kinect; but Forza may allow for calling out your pit stops. I want that, in my life.


----------



## zuzek

I can't help but have an oddly perverse feeling of disappointment at MS' caving in. The growing jenga tower of PR failure has made me laugh all the way home and it's almost sad to see it go . I have nothing much against MS, but this type of fubarism is a rarity.

XO will sell well now because most people simply forget and they want to get their hands on those games anyway. But I expect MS to slowly reintroduce/phase-in what it's been wanting to do immediately this time around and can't see that not happening. I skipped on Sony during the current/last generation. Not this time.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

I still have no plans to buy either new console (PC master race, etc etc), but I'm legitimately happy for the people who would've been screwed by the original DRM/Online Warden plan, but will now be able to continue doing something they love. I'm obviously biased in being especially happy for servicemen who felt slighted by the whole debacle, but it will also be nice for those less fortunate than myself who might've had to cut Xbox gaming out of their lives because they simply couldn't afford it.


----------



## synrgy

The Xbox One Just Got Way Worse, And It&#39;s Our Fault

Several interesting points raised, there. Maybe we were better off before Microsoft pulled a EA/Bioware maneuver on us..


----------



## groverj3

Most of my "hardcore" gamer friends are pretty insufferable right now. After bitching about the DRM policies, now they are bitching about M$ changing their minds on it. Between this and the Mass Effect 3 ending, I've become pretty convinced that people are far too afraid of change and feel too entitled in the gaming world.

I mean, I totally understand that my age 40+ coworkers lose their shit when MS Office gets updated and the buttons look different (OMGz!). However, gamers have been acting kind of the same way to changes that essentially would've made the XBONE(er) use a steam-like marketplace.

Once again, I'm not upset about the lack of always-online DRM. This is just an observation.


----------



## BlindingLight7

synrgy said:


> The Xbox One Just Got Way Worse, And It's Our Fault
> 
> Several interesting points raised, there. Maybe we were better off before Microsoft pulled a EA/Bioware maneuver on us..


Ouch... Still convinced me to stick with micro$oft though.


----------



## zuzek

synrgy said:


> The Xbox One Just Got Way Worse, And It's Our Fault
> 
> Several interesting points raised, there. Maybe we were better off before Microsoft pulled a EA/Bioware maneuver on us..



Is it me or does this clown apply cognitive distortion wherever he sees fit?

- Publishers *could* 'create hubs' or otherwise 'license' games to be sold on from the first buyer of either a digital or physical copy. The problem is that Microsoft has only announced its vision of the idea. There has been little to downright zero input from publishers on how such a system is feasible, how they wish to implement it and what price tags are associated with it. In short, we know nothing about how this would be in practice. The author of the article is applying wishful thinking of the most sinful degree.

- New games *could* be cheaper. Again, theory. I do not see any incentive in game news anywhere that proposes this is an idea shared by publishers. They're businesses. They're rent seeking. More money is better. They naturally have a bunch of quantitative researchers looking at where prices would need to be set taking into account the average people that sell their game on, but we have no idea how this would be quantified. Secondly, second hand price are usually a percentage of the original price. The only thing this new vision brings is a different starting price and different second hand price. The respective percentage will approximately remain the same (not to mention eventual DLC exclusivity...). You have to be a fool to think you're saving more money this way. Not to mention we currently do not know where this second hand money would end up (or even the first hand price with how MS seems to be managing the system through Xbox Live likely taking a bigger cut). A retailer that acts as an intermediate? Microsoft? I'd rather have the initial cost be high and make sure as big a cut as possible goes to the developer.

- "You also would have started getting a better return on your "used" games&#8212;because a license does not have to be resold at a diminished rate." Lol, see above. Steam also has absolutely nothing to do with this argument, although what the author says are valid points about Steam itself.

- No longer the 'arguably best feature' of the "10-person share plan". We have hardly any details about how this was to work. Limit of games to library? Can multiple people log into the same game at the same time? Again, author applying wishful thinking to a sinful degree.

Not going to discuss his last bullet point, it's idiotic. Rest of his article is riddled with wishful thinking and baseless argumentation. You could take a lot of angles to argue that this is a way of driving technology forward, but reinterpreting it in the best way possible as you see fit is not advisable. Yay pseudo-journalism.

...he could have actually said that MS had a definite vision of Xbox One and was quite persistent about it. Now they have seemed to do an Xbox One Eighty, but that leaves the future of how the console will be patched completely uncertain. *That* would actually be a solid argument as to why the console just got worse.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

Those options they changed could work without their ridiculous DRM. That is just M$ saying "This is why we can't have nice things!" to try to make us feel bad for the change.


----------



## zuzek

Captain Butterscotch said:


> Those options they changed could work without their ridiculous DRM. That is just M$ saying "This is why we can't have nice things!" to try to make us feel bad for the change.



Werd x 1000. MS has not at a single point even argued why the DRM check-in timeframe *has to be* 24 hours.


----------



## Joose

Either way. I'm ridiculously excited to own this system and spend hundreds of hours on Forza 5, Halo 5 and Battlefield 4!


----------



## flint757

zuzek said:


> - No longer the 'arguably best feature' of the "10-person share plan". We have hardly any details about how this was to work. Limit of games to library? Can multiple people log into the same game at the same time? Again, author applying wishful thinking to a sinful degree.



This I completely agree with. How do you boot people off your game? If you only have to be online once every 24 hours and your friend is playing one of your games do you have to wait until his next check in to play? Some of the XBONEs features sounded good only in theory.

Prices would not have gone down at all. Comparing it to Steam is illogical because it has a backlog of games that go back much further than just one generation of a console AND actually has competition from the likes of GOG and other publishers. Steam also allows friends from far away to play your games, but also allows for you to be in offline mode for as long as you wish.

M$ position at the moment is more like 'fine you don't like X so we'll take all of Y'. The truth is there was a middle ground that has been leaped over entirely during this entire endeavor. The funny thing is it wouldn't have been difficult at all for them to do both, but they have essentially refused. One thing is for certain prior to buying/signing in to the XBOX it'd be prudent of y'all to read through the ENTIRE user agreement.


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

Anyone who is still getting an xbox1 needs to preorder some integrity and principals also.


----------



## Mordacain

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Anyone who is still getting an xbox1 needs to preorder some integrity and principals also.



Yea, because your opinion is law and we should all follow your mighty example and bow down and raise Sony up as our Overlord and master. That's perhaps the most asinine statement I've read in the whole of this thread full of wild speculation and half-truths.

If I choose to pre-order an XB1, it will not be due to a lack of principals or integrity, it will be because I fully understand what both companies offer and have chosen what works best for me as a game consumer and wasn't suckered by a clever PR play into thinking a company (whose goal is to make money) has my best interests at heart over profits.

I would hope that you are not typing from a computer running any version of Windows, use skype or Office or anything else that Microsoft produces if you are that concerned about your (and apparently everyone else's) integrity as a consumer.


----------



## flint757

I've been living under a rock. I had no idea Microsoft acquired Skype a couple years ago.


----------



## Mordacain

flint757 said:


> I've been living under a rock. I had no idea Microsoft acquired Skype a couple years ago.



Interesting side note on that. Microsoft hasn't made the skype experience worse for people, charging new, outlandish rates to use the service or anything of the sort. In fact, they improved the infrastructure by adding new Linux-based servers that were well-hardened making the whole service much more secure.


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

Mordacain said:


> Yea, because your opinion is law and we should all follow your mighty example and bow down and raise Sony up as our Overlord and master. That's perhaps the most asinine statement I've read in the whole of this thread full of wild speculation and half-truths.
> 
> If I choose to pre-order an XB1, it will not be due to a lack of principals or integrity, it will be because I fully understand what both companies offer and have chosen what works best for me as a game consumer and wasn't suckered by a clever PR play into thinking a company (whose goal is to make money) has my best interests at heart over profits.
> 
> I would hope that you are not typing from a computer running any version of Windows, use skype or Office or anything else that Microsoft produces if you are that concerned about your (and apparently everyone else's) integrity as a consumer.



 Jesus dude. Be a complete jerk for no reason why dont ya! Did you see the little smiley after my comment? It was a joke.
As i type on my windows 8 machine. Do i need anymore reason to not like M$?

Well, in fairness, i was joking, but really, i wouldnt get an xbone due to principals and integrity. If you want to get one? Fine by me. I dont care that a companies job is to make money. There are ways of going about that. Sony out manuvered M$. Plain and simple. To try to make that a moot point by highlighting that companies are trying to make money doesnt have anything to do with anything.

I ordered a PS4 based on the fact that i trust Sony to do the right thing a little more than MS at this point. Its obvious MS cant be trusted at this point.(as if it wasnt already)


----------



## TheDivineWing22

^^


----------



## 7 Strings of Hate

TheDivineWing22 said:


> ^^



Im not sure if i should laugh at your joke or just jump down your throat because i took your joke as an implication that it was a law you were trying to impose on me as my overlord.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Huh... So, the family sharing plan was actually... pretty shitty. It only let "family members" play a 60-minute demo, according to neoGAF's resident insider.

Here's the context.


----------



## flint757

I figured it'd be something lame and even if it was what they made it out to be they'd still only allow one instance of the game playing at a time if I recall correctly.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch




----------



## Repner

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Huh... So, the family sharing plan was actually... pretty shitty. It only let "family members" play a 60-minute demo, according to neoGAF's resident insider.
> 
> Here's the context.


Just when you thought they stopped digging themselves deeper and deeper...

Did they really think people wouldn't notice this if the console had launched with this?


----------



## tacotiklah

This seems to be the most fitting (if also slightly disturbing) portrayal of M$ sudden "change of heart" and attitude towards having to change things about the console:


----------



## zuzek

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Huh... So, the family sharing plan was actually... pretty shitty. It only let "family members" play a 60-minute demo, according to neoGAF's resident insider.
> 
> Here's the context.



I have to revise my earlier comment, thanks. Still laughing all the way home.


----------



## Joose

Pre-ordered my X1/Forza Motorsport 5 bundle today.


----------



## KevHo

Count me out of the initial XBOX/PS4 plunge. I'm going to sit back and wait to see what happens.


----------



## Mordacain

KevHo said:


> Count me out of the initial XBOX/PS4 plunge. I'm going to sit back and wait to see what happens.



I'm going to wait on XB1 for now, since all of the games I'm really interested in are multi-platform.

I put in a reservation for a PS4, but that was mainly because my local gamestop still had some reserves left while I decide if I really want one at launch or not. Figured I could always make someone's day by opening up a slot or possibly just reselling it if the systems sell out.


----------



## Sean Conklin

KevHo said:


> Count me out of the initial XBOX/PS4 plunge. I'm going to sit back and wait to see what happens.



I think I'm with you on that one.......I think.


----------



## F1Filter

Goodbye Don Mattrick 






Xbox President Don Mattrick leaving Microsoft to become Zynga CEO [updated] | Ars Technica


----------



## MFB

.... Zynga, Mattrick will fit right in with their model of "just take this other game, re-skin it and deliver it back under a newer, shitty package." This guy has had a shitty run of jobs, first being president of EA - then Microsoft - and now Zynga? Good lord.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Sounds like he was forced to leave if he ended up at Zynga of all places. 

EDIT: This is the guy that's replacing him.


----------



## flint757

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Sounds like he was forced to leave if he ended up at Zynga of all places.
> 
> EDIT: This is the guy that's replacing him.
> 
> [VIDEO]


----------



## flexkill

F1Filter said:


> Goodbye Don Mattrick


This guy is a cvnt!!! I can not stand this thief!


----------



## jonajon91

Can someone compile a big list of things that are still wrong with the xbox 1 so I can send it to my friend. He is looking for any excuse to get it because he has an xbox 360 and he seems to have brand loyalty or something.
Anyway, I sucks at arguing so can we just make a big intimidating list of thinks that suck about it.


----------



## flint757

At the moment it is a matter of the kinect always having to be connected and which has better exclusives. They pretty much got rid of everything else that was wrong with it and a few things that were pretty cool too (throwing the baby out with the bath water much).

Honestly my main reason for not getting it is because of the ordeal itself rather than the console. I like the PS4 exclusives better too and it is cheaper to boot. I do like the XBOX controller though.


----------



## Repner

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Sounds like he was forced to leave if he ended up at Zynga of all places.
> 
> EDIT: This is the guy that's replacing him.



He's taking over the gaming side of the company as well?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

From what I've heard, he's just being the boss temporarily. They'll most likely find a permanent replacement soon.


----------



## Osorio

[Oops. Nevermind. Just to clarify I posted something that I thought was true but it wasn't. Sorry about that. Feel free to delete.]


----------



## Repner

venneer said:


> [Oops. Nevermind. Just to clarify I posted something that I thought was true but it wasn't. Sorry about that. Feel free to delete.]


You posted something wrong. We will always remember this. Always.


----------



## SenorDingDong

If XBone's first game is Steve Ballmer giving himself a heart attack with 1:30 of cardio, count me in.


----------



## Don Vito

So I've been replaying Dead Rising recently. It makes me want to pick up Xbox One just for DR3. I honestly never cared about the humor in DR now that I think think about it. I like the contrasted vibes from the first game, but my favorite part was when it got dark and the zombies got super aggressive. I goes from a light hearted(albeit gory) hack n, slash to a legit survival horror game. The reason I didn't like Dead Rising 2 as much is because they took away the campy horror vibes. At least 70% of DR2 takes place in some brightly lit casino type area.

I still think DR3 looks to brown and American(Canadian), but I feel like I would enjoy it anyways. But $500... damn..

While I haven't used it in some time, I always liked XBL. It's very clean and efficient, or was before avatars and ads all over the dashboard. Remember 360 Live circa 05-07?;_;

I'm curious to see how/if they'll redesign it.


----------



## Osorio

Repner said:


> You posted something wrong. We will always remember this. Always.







Don Vito said:


> I'm curious to see how/if they'll redesign it.



It sure seems like most if not all redesigns are for the worst nowadays. I can't really think of anything that was a drastic improvement in ease of access... Specially in the case of UI. There are large chances that they will redesign it and make it (purposefully or not) completely unintuitive for the controller, since they expect people to have frantic dialogues with their Kinects.

Not really (but kinda) related, but relevant in the case of bad UI:
Penny Arcade - What You Wish For


----------



## Joose

360 was awesome, PS3 was okay, PS4 looks good, Xbox One looks better.

Like I said, mine is already pretty much paid for. I love all of the things I'm going to be able to do with it. Besides, it has Forza and Halo, PS4 does not.


----------



## zuzek

Joose said:


> 360 was awesome, PS3 was okay, PS4 looks good, Xbox One looks better.
> 
> Like I said, mine is already pretty much paid for. I love all of the things I'm going to be able to do with it. Besides, it has Forza and Halo, PS4 does not.



Good for you that you'll love it, but can we keep the thread empty from this style of fanboy posts? An odd "I like Xbox One because I like Xbox One" shouldn't be a problem but this must be the third or fourth time I'm reading almost the same message you've posted. Let's discuss the actual console.


----------



## Joose

zuzek said:


> Good for you that you'll love it, but can we keep the thread empty from this style of fanboy posts? An odd "I like Xbox One because I like Xbox One" shouldn't be a problem but this must be the third or fourth time I'm reading almost the same message you've posted. Let's discuss the actual console.



 You'll live, buddy.

If the PS4 was better, I'd buy it. But it's not. I'm quite excited to link my cable and everything else through the console. Happy? 

"Fanboy" what a pathetic, overused term for people who love something. I'll post whatever I damn well want.


----------



## flint757

Other than exclusives and the controller they are essentially the same. 

'Better' is the wrong word to use. Even if one had an edge neither are released yet to know with any amount of certainty.


----------



## F1Filter

Interesting take on alleged collusion between MS and EA. Whether or not it's true, this does give a good history lesson up to Mattrick's departure.


----------



## Joose

flint757 said:


> Other than exclusives and the controller they are essentially the same.
> 
> 'Better' is the wrong word to use. Even if one had an edge neither are released yet to know with any amount of certainty.



I can agree with that, for sure.

Preferable, maybe?


----------



## Mordacain

Joose said:


> You'll live, buddy.
> 
> If the PS4 was better, I'd buy it. But it's not. I'm quite excited to link my cable and everything else through the console. Happy?
> 
> "Fanboy" what a pathetic, overused term for people who love something. I'll post whatever I damn well want.



I believe "Fanboy" is used not as a term for people who love something, but as a term to describe someone obsessed with an object or person, beyond the bounds of what is normally healthy. 

With regards to consoles, it is usually used to describe those who profess one consoles superiority over another (loudly and stupidly in my opinion) without any real evidence to back up their claim, or without regards when there is evidence to the contrary.

Example: XB1 is better than PS4:

A) neither console is released yet, so no-one can say for certain until we have the consoles and games in hand

B) they have virtually identical hardware and capabilities so they will be differentiated by their exclusives and services

Neither is "better" than the other objectively. One might be better for you than the other, one might be better for me than the other; it's a subjective thing, not an objective one.


----------



## zuzek

Joose said:


> You'll live, buddy.
> 
> If the PS4 was better, I'd buy it. But it's not. I'm quite excited to link my cable and everything else through the console. Happy?
> 
> "Fanboy" what a pathetic, overused term for people who love something. I'll post whatever I damn well want.



Whoa. I am _asking_ you to discuss the console instead of simply repeating a post saying "I like this console because I like it!". I am being sincere when I say 'good for you', there was no sarcasm intended. It remains that such posts contribute nothing to discussing the actual console (hence saying they are empty fanboy-style posts; see Mordecai's explanation), which what I thought this thread was for. I'm not forcing your hand, I'm asking you to recognize the content of what you're posting. It'd be the equivalent a political thread on democrats versus republicans and posting three or four times that you vote for democrats because democrats are better. It's a little silly and not helping a healthy discussion move along with interesting points.


----------



## flint757

Joose said:


> I can agree with that, for sure.
> 
> Preferable, maybe?



Definitely a better choice of words.


----------



## Mexi

Xbox One reputation system matches trolls with trolls | Joystiq

probably one of the few good features on this thing. maybe sony will take some cues


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands




----------



## habicore_5150

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>




Noticed one of the "reasons" for signing the petition had some 1337sp33k and other dumbass things in there, so it could be that someone just got bored and decided to make a trolling petition

But if someone legitimately went ahead with this just to get MS to revert back the SpyBox One...my initial reaction will be at the bottom of this text


----------



## flint757

It's like I said before, there was a middle ground where the best of both worlds could have been had.

The petition he is bitching about doesn't seem _that_ unreasonable or ridiculous (but it twas funny ). The original plan would have been fine with an offline mode, no region lock and the choice to install or not.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

flint757 said:


> It's like I said before, there was a middle ground where the best of both worlds could have been had.
> 
> The petition he is bitching about doesn't seem _that_ unreasonable or ridiculous (but it twas funny ). The original plan would have been fine with an offline mode, no region lock and the choice to install or not.



QFT

There was a middle ground there the entire time that everyone would have been fine with. If only Microsoft would've seen that, or at least acted upon it, then they would've absolutely killed the PS4 and the WiiU from the very beginning.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA




----------



## Joose

Why I

All sounding very good.


----------



## Osorio

Xbox One will function without Kinect - GameSpot.com

HA.


----------



## groverj3

groverj3 said:


> Can't believe I wasted my 1000th post here



I got neg repped for this two months after the post?


----------



## Joose

Console+Forza 5=Paid off! That's gonna be a damn good day.

Also just bought a new TV, because I haven't since Forza 3 came out. Reason was, Forza 3 looked too good for my TV. Same case with FM5. Last time I went with a 42" Vizio LCD; this time it's a 46" Samsung LED Smart TV. Damaged box took off $150.


----------



## Curt

"Xbox One Available 11.22.13"


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Curt said:


> "Xbox One Available 11.22.13" only in select countries


----------



## Curt

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>


 
One of which I live in. 

I just figured some folks would appreciate me posting the release date. I am not buying the Xbone near launch, anyway. 
Dat PS4 doe.


----------



## BusinessMan

Sony has my money on consoles from now. Thats all im gonna say...


----------



## Chuck

Still haven't decided on which console I will get.

Oh and also, if I were to get a XB1 would I be able to chat with and be in a party with people on the 360? And lastly, since the new CoD is cross platform does that mean that people playing XB1 will be playing with 360 users and PS4 with PS3? Or will it all be separated?


----------



## Carrion Rocket

Chuck said:


> Still haven't decided on which console I will get.
> Oh and also, if I were to get a XB1 would I be able to chat with and be in a party with people on the 360?


You could with the original Xbox and 360 because me and friends did it numerous times in Halo 2.

EDIT: I found this article with a quote from Major "Promotion Whore" Nelson that states "Based on what I know of the voice system, I would be surprised if this was possible. The Xbox One uses an all new wide bandwidth (read: better voice quality) CODEC, so I doubt they are compatible." Apparently it's something with the systems architecture, possibly the three operating systems it runs on.



Chuck said:


> And lastly, since the new CoD is cross platform does that mean that people playing XB1 will be playing with 360 users and PS4 with PS3? Or will it all be separated?


To my knowledge there were no games that could be played online together with one person on the 360 copy and another on the Xbox copy. The only crossplatform game I know of on the 360 was Shadowrun which was crossplay with 360 and PC.


----------



## Bennykins

Actually cancelled my PS4 preorder last week and transferred the funds to the Xbone, I want something I can play at launch and the second shipment of PS4's to Australia is not estimated to be until late December/early 2014.

Anyhow, happy enough with my decision (will end up getting PS4 eventually anyway) and have also preordered Assassin's Creed 4 as my launch title. Might get Watch Dogs too. Good times for gaming coming up...


----------



## ShadowAMD

I'll just leave this here:


----------



## ScottyB724

So unplug your kinect ?


----------



## ShadowAMD

ScottyB724 said:


> So unplug your kinect ?



Or don't buy an Xbox? Pay extra for a bundled system you will never use or if you do so get spied on. 

Big Xbox fan usually, albeit Microsoft keep making many questionable decisions.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

ShadowAMD said:


> Big Xbox fan usually, albeit Microsoft keep making many questionable decisions.



Almost everything they've said or announced about Xbone has been kinda shady.


----------



## Cloudy

Ive been a pretty devote Xbox fan since day 1, purchased the first console within a few weeks of its release and enjoyed every hour of gaming I had on it. I had my doubts with the xbox one announcement, a lot of semi retarded shit (Mainly the kinect Cam)

A lot of people going off on Xbox for forcing you to stay online/pay for used games but in all honesty thats EXACTLY what steam is (which a boatload of people identify as masterrace) I do admit that I buy used on my 360 frequently and it would be unfortunate but the online thing...not a big deal I stay online about 95% of the time anyways and I assure you a large percentage of people do as well. I'm glad they went back on all of it out of sheer convenience but jeez people were talking about how xbox would never recover and it was a death sentence for them. 

Needless to say I'll probably still get the xbox one, definitely not on release because 500 bucks no thanks. The exclusives look a lot better imo.


----------



## Choop

Cloudy said:


> A lot of people going off on Xbox for forcing you to stay online/pay for used games but in all honesty thats EXACTLY what steam is (which a boatload of people identify as masterrace)



Eh you can access steam games without being online as long as you don't plan on playing online multiplayer. GFWL games create another hurdle though...thanks Microsoft. D:


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Cloudy said:


> but in all honesty thats EXACTLY what steam is (which a boatload of people identify as masterrace)



Me and my brother were able to play Steam games offline. 



Choop said:


> Eh you can access steam games without being online as long as you don't plan on playing online multiplayer. GFWL games create another hurdle though...thanks Microsoft. D:



Devs are supposed to be patching that out on several games since it's gone, right?


----------



## flint757

^^^

Supposedly


----------



## Cloudy

You can play steam games offline but to login to steam you have to have an internet connection. I suppose its not exactly the same concept but the underlying fact is that at some point you have to have an internet connection. The xbox one only had a once every 24 hours policy if I remember correct.


----------



## ShadowAMD

Captain Butterscotch said:


> Almost everything they've said or announced about Xbone has been kinda shady.



Yeah the issue in a nutshell, I think many of us were taken back by how good the XBox 360 was and even the original Xbox.. I bet the Xbone will be great too, it becomes hard to trust a company when they do shady things all the time, Capcom have done the same for years and now there sinking fast.


----------



## Bennykins

It occurred to me  that I still have a backlog of maybe 30 games to get through on PC, PS3 and 360, so I cancelled my Xbone and all my next-gen game preorders and bought another guitar. Seemed like the logical thing to do


----------



## wankerness

Choop said:


> Eh you can access steam games without being online as long as you don't plan on playing online multiplayer. GFWL games create another hurdle though...thanks Microsoft. D:



There's some weird caveats to that - my internet service got interrupted for a week when I moved to a new house and my steam refused to let me switch to offline mode without first logging on so I was shit out of luck. You have to go online to turn on offline mode, basically. I eventually managed to do it by logging onto a neighbor's wireless and doing it and then it worked fine, but yeah. >:O


----------



## flint757

Yeah they want to make sure 2 or more people aren't trying to log on in offline mode simultaneously. Generally speaking you can stay in offline mode indefinitely once you log in though.


----------



## Don Vito

Ryse looks brutal. I might be getting one of these for XBL purposes. 

There was a demo model set up at Gamestop, but they didn't seem to have any controllers connected :/


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

I know this has probably been over done but the way Microsoft tried to F**K people and thought people would love it, just doesn't sit well with me at all, I'm sticking with Sony.


----------



## Cloudy

joshuavsoapkid said:


> I know this has probably been over done but the way Microsoft tried to F**K people and thought people would love it, just doesn't sit well with me at all, I'm sticking with Sony.



I dont think it was extremely ludicrous for them to have attempted to instate the policies that upset so many people. It was really not much different than Steam which people praise to the grave currently. Although I disagree with the policies 150% because .... that they really got a lot more hate then they deserved, they listened to their customers and backed down on most of them. Bravo if you ask me.

I'm not buying a console for 'fanboy' reasons, I just prefer the launch titles xbox is throwing out.


----------



## Don Vito

The launch stuff looks really good. Ryse, Crimson Dragon, FIFA 14, Dead Rising 3... isn't there a new Forza out as well?


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Cloudy said:


> I dont think it was extremely ludicrous for them to have attempted to instate the policies that upset so many people. It was really not much different than Steam which people praise to the grave currently. Although I disagree with the policies 150% because .... that they really got a lot more hate then they deserved, they listened to their customers and backed down on most of them. Bravo if you ask me.
> 
> I'm not buying a console for 'fanboy' reasons, I just prefer the launch titles xbox is throwing out.


It's not similar to Steam on Steam you can play offline 24/7, while on Xbox One you have to log in every 24 hours online.


----------



## Cloudy

joshuavsoapkid said:


> It's not similar to Steam on Steam you can play offline 24/7, while on Xbox One you have to log in every 24 hours online.



You can't sign into steam offline though, principle fact is that at some point you need to be online.


----------



## flint757

Steam actually did get a lot of shit for their program/policies for many years. Only in recent years has their reputation been so stellar. 

It was blown out of proportion for sure, but their approach in enacting the policies was flawed and their reaction/response was even worse. Truth is they didn't have to get rid of anything they were going to do. It needed some altering not a complete makeover. They could have easily kept it so people could do offline and online, but instead they got their panties in a bunch about it claiming it's an all or nothing deal.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

From what I've read, Valve is trying to fix Steam to where offline mode can be permanent.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

And it's not quite a fair comparison, since until the Steam Boxes are released, if you want to use Steam, you're already using it on your PC. It's reasonable to assume that if someone is running Steam on their PC, they're connected to the internet. Consoles, on the other hand, while it's increasingly common for them to be connected these days, it's not a given. I know I had my 360 for months before I bothered trying to connect it to the internet a single time, and that was just to get the Oblivion DLC, hahaha. At least the XBone will have built-in WiFi (right?) this time. It'd have been EXTRA shitty if they had required an internet connection, but sold the WiFi adaptor separately, like OG Xboxes did, haha.

That said, I _have_ been annoyed by the online requirement for Steam on days when my internet was down for one reason or another. My workaround then was to use my phone as a WiFi hotspot, log in to Steam, sign in to offline mode, then turn off the hotspot.'

EDIT: And again, to be fair, chances are most of the people who were so up in arms against the XBone's potential online requirements were console gamers, not PC gamers who use Steam.


----------



## Don Vito

^ 360 slim had built in wifi


----------



## Sicarius

Yeah the Slim and new E versions (XBOne lookalikes) have it built in, but for the longest time it was an 80$ adapter.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Cloudy said:


> You can't sign into steam offline though, principle fact is that at some point you need to be online.


There's no need to sign into Steam when your offline as long nothing needs an update.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Don Vito said:


> ^ 360 slim had built in wifi



Hence I said "the OG XBoxes."


----------



## Jzbass25

Cloudy said:


> You can't sign into steam offline though, principle fact is that at some point you need to be online.



That is untrue, obviously you need to be online for online features though.


----------



## Osorio

Not sure if this has been addressed, but I haven't seen it anywhere: 

Does the resolution / framerate "issues" that have been popping up bother prospect x1 buyers?

If you are not aware, Dead Rising 3 runs at 720p/30fps, I believe Forza is either 720p/60fps or 1080p/30fps, I don't remember which but there was a debate concerning some aspect of it as really disappointing (aside the fact that it only has 14 tracks), not to mention COD Ghosts being 720p/60fps as well (even though the PS4 version has issues with framerate, the embargo on reviews of COD is only leading people to believe the issue are worse).

I'm asking because I'm not sure I would be particularly bothered, but a lot of people seem to have understood that after 7 years, the "next-gen" would be exclusive 1080p, and the appearance of a lot of sub instances seems to be causing a lot of people on gaming forums to proclaim a jump ship. Does this bother any of my fair SSO fellows as much as?


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Forza is the only 1080p/60FPS game on the Xbox One that I know of. 

Honestly, since I'm a bit of a Nintendo guy (although I don't plan on getting an XB1), it doesn't bother me, but it makes me wonder how things will do during the rest of the XB1's lifespan. I mean, if Crytek can't make a 1080p game or the Xbox, it does seem to confirm that it's more difficult to develop for the XB1 than it is the Ps4.


----------



## Sicarius

From what I've read, the only reason CoD:G was 720/60 was because they didn't have the hardware when they started development. They did what they could to get the framerate to 60, and then made it 720 because they couldn't get it to be 1080/60.

Capcom has said it just wasn't possible for them to get 1080/60 because they couldn't do it without loading screens, and because of how many objects are on the screen.

It seems like BS excuses, honestly. But I'd imagine within the next 6 months or so that the XBOne will see more 1080/60 games come under development


----------



## ncfiala

Can't wait to pick mine up in a week. Only game I'm gonna get is Ryse for now.


----------



## GazPots

So my COD:Ghosts turned up today and i ain't got a Xbox One to play it on yet.


Sonofabitch.


----------



## MFB

GazPots said:


> So my COD:Ghosts turned up today and i ain't got a Xbox One to play it on yet.
> 
> 
> Sonofabitch.



Yesterday at work we had Dead Rising 3, Black Flag, Need for Speed (I think) and Just Dance 2014 all for XBone come in and supposedly they were supposed to be on the floor. Yeah, no way, not putting out XB1 games the day before the PS4 releases to deal with all those rabid fans.


----------



## narad

ShadowAMD said:


> I'll just leave this here:




Who cares? I hate ads, but the ads I'm going to see might as well be targeted to me. They have a box that's smart enough to identify things like how you react to an event or how many people you play with. While I have doubts that it's going to useful data, if they want to throw this in a giant regression model along with how often you play, what games you're playing, your age or gender, etc, ....why care? I'm more angered that people make leaps from "collects data on you" to "Big Brother" than I am about a company selling statistics on how you use their devices.

Google makes searches better by collecting data about you, Netflix (tries) to make movie recommendations better by collecting data about you. You know what doesn't collect enough data about me? My cable TV. That's why I have to listen to dozens of tampon, dementia, and proactive commercials every night. If my TV could measure my expression of disgust when middle-aged women walk along a beach talking about that not-so-fresh feeling, maybe I wouldn't have to sit through it 10 minutes of such irrelevant commercials a night.


----------



## GazPots

MFB said:


> Yesterday at work we had Dead Rising 3, Black Flag, Need for Speed (I think) and Just Dance 2014 all for XBone come in and supposedly they were supposed to be on the floor. Yeah, no way, not putting out XB1 games the day before the PS4 releases to deal with all those rabid fans.



 Could of turned ugly. Fast.


----------



## Cloudy

Jzbass25 said:


> That is untrue, obviously you need to be online for online features though.



I should rephrase. At some point in time you must have an internet connection to sign into steam, that is a fact. Poor example on my part, my bad. 

Either way I think I'll be grabbing the Xbox one over the playstation. I've been watching a lot of gameplay trailers and think I'll be happier with the xbox exclusives.  Knack for the PS4 looks cool though, I use to be into those ratchet and clank style games but its passed me now.


----------



## Xaios

joshuavsoapkid said:


> It's not similar to Steam on Steam you can play offline 24/7, while on Xbox One you have to log in every 24 hours online.



Microsoft dropped the 24 hour login requirement several months ago. They also dropped having the Kinect hooked up as a requirement (although it still ships with Kinect).


----------



## Mike

Osorio said:


> I'm asking because I'm not sure I would be particularly bothered, but a lot of people seem to have understood that after 7 years, the "next-gen" would be exclusive 1080p, and the appearance of a lot of sub instances seems to be causing a lot of people on gaming forums to proclaim a jump ship. Does this bother any of my fair SSO fellows as much as?



I'm bothered lol. For the prices they're charging for these consoles and the amount of time they've had to work on them (not to mention the experienced engineers and expertise at work), there is simply no excuse for all the problems/limitations/issues/drawbacks/whatever you want to call them. Maybe it's the fact that I'm the consumer this time around (when the 360 came out I was under mommy and daddy's roof and it was a gift, so "it's the cool new system" was convincing enough for me) and I've put a lot more time and thought into where my dollar is going, but to me the label "Next-Gen" for these consoles is like Kim Jong Un saying North Korea is the supreme, single greatest country on earth. The credentials just aren't there to make such claims. 

edit: honestly I'm not getting on either ship until they prove to me that they're worth the investment.


----------



## Xaios

To all things "next-gen technology" related, I say this:


----------



## F1Filter




----------



## Captain Butterscotch

I've just finished reading a few reviews on both the PS4 and Xbone. A common denominator on both consoles, especially the Xbone, is that they are great consoles with a hefty potential and lots of thing that need to get ironed out. To be expected at a launch, of course. I do wonder what will come to light in the upcoming months.


----------



## Cloudy

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I've just finished reading a few reviews on both the PS4 and Xbone. A common denominator on both consoles, especially the Xbone, is that they are great consoles with a hefty potential and lots of thing that need to get ironed out. To be expected at a launch, of course. I do wonder what will come to light in the upcoming months.



Aye, I always like to sit out the launch and see how each console unfolds. Despite the fanboy battle between the two they both present extreme potential for this generation and I have no doubt it'll be exceptional on both sides given the scale of each consoles community and the current output they're presenting in terms of new console content and video game releases.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

It's midnight on the east coast. Anyone got their consoles yet?


----------



## Cloudy

Todays the day, time to see if Xbox has a successful launch and if they're going to get my money


----------



## Don Vito

I watched the launch thing on TV. Geoff Keighley was there. It was terrible.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I didn't watch the Xbox one, but if it was as bad as the PS4 one, then I'm glad I didn't miss anything.


----------



## Muzakman

Cynic said:


> why do they call it the xbox one?
> 
> cause after one game you turn 1 degree and walk over the console and then break it hahahahaahah



I love the classic "Why is the xbox360 called the xbox 360? because when you see it you turn 360 degrees and walk away from it!" hahah I love fails


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## Xaios

Just to get it out of the way, I'm not going to be buying either console at launch.

Based on what I've seen of both consoles so far (irrespective of the games currently available for them), the Xbox One appeals to me more than the PS4. The PS4 has a lot of great things going for it too, being slightly more potent in the hardware department and having what looks to be one of the best controllers ever conceived. The XB1 though appears to be a more ready to be integrated into a true A/V system, and also appears to be more forward-thinking than the PS4.

Granted, what will make the difference in the end is the games.


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## ncfiala

My Xbox One is currently sitting in my trunk along with an extra controller and play and charge kit, Ryse, Super Mario 3D World for Wii U, and A Link to the Past for 3DS. Its gonna be a long day at work.


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## Cloudy

ncfiala said:


> My Xbox One is currently sitting in my trunk along with an extra controller and play and charge kit, Ryse, Super Mario 3D World for Wii U, and A Link to the Past for 3DS. Its gonna be a long day at work.



Man I bet its going to be a long day! lol.

Going to be a long few weeks waiting till after X-Mas to buy an Xbox One.


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## Spinedriver

I just got a PS3 2 years ago, I'm in no hurry whatsoever to get a PS4 just yet. From what I've read on IGN, it appears that the XBOne is suffering from a number of hardware failures.

Xbox One Early Adopters Reporting Hardware Problems - IGN

A few of the reasons I've never bought a system at launch : 

1. Price 2. The available games are both limited and expensive. 3. As demonstrated by the XBOne, there could be hardware issues related to production that need to be fixed. 

I feel bad for anyone who stood in line for a couple of hours, dropped well over $500 for a system & games and once they get home, plug it in and it won't work.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah, I've been reading about the failures. Seems like a bad batch of BluRay drives.


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## Maggai

there are issues with ps4's as well. There's always some issues with these consoles at launch...


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## Michael T

Just now unboxed my Xbox One, picked up AC IV (traded the 360 version in & got the XB1 copy for 9.99), Dead Rising 3, NFS Rivals and the charge station.

Gonna be a fun weekend !!


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## Don Vito

I want Dead Rising 3 rly bad. The first game was the sole reason I bought my 360 in 2006.


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## Carrion Rocket

I knew the Xbox One console was big but seeing one in person made me realize I'd either have to sit it outside my entertainment center or buy a bigger one for the ventilation when or if I decide to get one.


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## technomancer

Xaios said:


> Just to get it out of the way, I'm not going to be buying either console at launch.
> 
> Based on what I've seen of both consoles so far (irrespective of the games currently available for them), the Xbox One appeals to me more than the PS4. The PS4 has a lot of great things going for it too, being slightly more potent in the hardware department and having what looks to be one of the best controllers ever conceived. The XB1 though appears to be a more ready to be integrated into a true A/V system, and also appears to be more forward-thinking than the PS4.
> 
> Granted, what will make the difference in the end is the games.



I admit I'm not following this all that closely, but it seems like one of the selling points that is getting pushed with XB1 is that it pretty much takes over your AV system. Am I the only one here that really doesn't want that? I've got a great system set up already, I really don't want a console that is trying to take over everything, I want another option I can switch to to play games on my TV


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## Obsidian Soul

Muzakman said:


> I love the classic "Why is the xbox360 called the xbox 360? because when you see it you turn 360 degrees and walk away from it!" hahah I love fails



Incorrect.If you were to turn 360°,you would end up walking towards it...


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## FallOfHumanity

Obsidian Soul said:


> Incorrect.If you were to turn 360°,you would end up walking towards it...



Just to pick it up and throw it against a wall. 

I've owned so many Xbox 360 consoles. 3 of them red ringed, then I just stopped caring.

Some of the features make me want an Xbox One. But I'll stick with the PS4 for now. I'd rather patchable software issues over hardware failures any day.


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## Grand Moff Tim

Obsidian Soul said:


> Incorrect.If you were to turn 360°,you would end up walking towards it...











I believe that's why he said "hahaha I love fails."


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## Cloudy

Just got an xbox one.

Add me. Cloudy Lolrus.


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## JoshuaVonFlash

Man I wish Killer Instinct was on PS4, I want it so BAD!


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## Konfyouzd

Okay guys... My TV has 2 HDMI ins but one of them is shot... SO... I need some assistance with figuring out if I can pull something off.

The One has a through port for connecting another system or a TV. I currently have mine connected to my TV. I'd like to find a way that I could have the TV AND my 360 connected to it through some kind of auto switching HDMI switch. Is it possible?

Further... If I wanted to try and throw a PS3 in the mix, could I stack HDMI switches and accomplish this or would I be wasting my money on the switches? Sorry if this is a noob question...


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## Xaios

Konfyouzd said:


> Okay guys... My TV has 2 HDMI ins but one of them is shot... SO... I need some assistance with figuring out if I can pull something off.
> 
> The One has a through port for connecting another system or a TV. I currently have mine connected to my TV. I'd like to find a way that I could have the TV AND my 360 connected to it through some kind of auto switching HDMI switch. Is it possible?
> 
> Further... If I wanted to try and throw a PS3 in the mix, could I stack HDMI switches and accomplish this or would I be wasting my money on the switches? Sorry if this is a noob question...



If I were you, I'd just get an A/V Receiver. It sounds like the most sensible solution.


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## flint757

Not too expensive either.


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## caskettheclown

all this talk about next gen consoles, well I guess current gen since they are for sale now 




and all i've got is a ps2 and a laptop 

hopefully soon i'll get a ps3.


How is everyone liking their new consoles??


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## Curt

Is no one here on the XB One anymore? Or?


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## TheShreddinHand

I have one. It's mostly used for movies right now though. Although I do still play an occasional match of Titanfall. That all changes next month with the master chief collection!


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## StevenC

I haven't got my own yet, but my roommate has one and I've played so much Forza in the past couple of weeks. Most FPS games don't excite me, Halo excluded, so I do most of my gaming on the Wii U. Until Phantom Pain and Master Chief Collection come out, I haven't much reason to play PS4/XBone.


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## Don Vito

Has anyone played the port of The Long Dark? I've been thinking about buying an Xbone just for that game.


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## wannabguitarist

Just got live, the Master Chief Collection, and Forza 6. Who was contribute to my anti-social behavior? GT: Fearthebrows89


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