# Baritone Guitar info



## Hard Truth (Feb 6, 2007)

Sorry if this seems spam-like, but this is a non-commercial venture. 

I have started a new web site dedicated to the baritone guitar www.thebaritoneguitar.com, as far as I know its the first website dedicated to this topic. I may seek sponsors in the future, but for now it is totally non-commercial. (except for links to my music projects) The initial content focuses on defining and describing the instrument and comparing it to its relatives. The focus is on six string baritones, but I think players of seven strings and other related instruments will find some useful info. Your feedback will guide the development of future content, so please contact me with your suggestions.


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 10, 2007)

There isn't a lot written on the Baritone guitar. I read your page on the Fender Bass VI and one thing that never makes sense to me is how anyone can call it a Baritone guitar.



It has the same E1 bass note as a 4-string and it was originally made so guitar player could double bass guitar without playing the big Fender basses. It only has a few more notes than a 4-string.


I think using vocal and woodwind nomenclature for guitars is absurd.

So tuning a guitar a fifth lower is just that.
After playing my 8 octave guitar for several years I realize that a guitar having 8 octaves is normal and all the guitars are just sections on this unlimited fretboard instrument. So the U.F.I. covers the same effective range as a grand piano.I say unlimited because I haveover 400 note positions.
The term extended range bass is silly because bass stops being bass and becomes baritone and then tenor, and Piccolo etc. We don't extend the range of bass,we cross over to baritone with over laps. This of course depends on what ranges we use to define these terms.

So Baritone guitar is a nice term from the 1950's and the Fender Bass VI,Gibson Eb6 are the same bass guitars as a Fender P Bass or a Gibson Eb1, but extend into the guitar range. Four of the six strings are traditional bass guitar strings. 34' scale, just closer string spacing.

I think your site should embrace this modern view of what has happened.

The piano keyboard has 96,88,76,64, and 44 note versions. The electric guitar has a single course 12-string with a range of 96 notes, 8 octaves and there are guitars with only 5 and 4 strings So i am for doing away with baritone,tenor etc. and saying , for example, a 6 octave,11-strings guitar using a 34" scale spanning F#0 to G6 or a 7-string,4-1/2 octave guitar tuned B0-F5 at 34' etc. With all the 3-12 string configuartions and scale lengths etc, terms like baritone seem to get lost.

So your site could have a historical section with what has been created such as the traditional baritone guitar and a current section for what's happening now. 
I have a B5 (7th fret high E string on a guitar) as my highest open string on a 27" scale guitar....what do you call that? Nothing like that has ever existed. A tenor guitar? A piccolo guitar?


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 23, 2007)

Interesting site...

How about creating a tunings dictionary, as people like Ani DiFranco have used some pretty 'out-there' tunings on acoustic baritones?

BTW, a tenor guitar refers to a four-string guitar tuned CGDA, same as a cello. They used to be used in early jazz bands as a substitute for the banjo IIRC.


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## Chris (Feb 23, 2007)

Good luck man. 

Unfortunately, even my work's rather lenient firewall hits me with:



> Access Denied (content_filter_denied)
> 
> Your request was denied because of its content categorization: "Pornography"


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## ElRay (Feb 23, 2007)

Another pit to nick, Rondo Music also has the Agile Interceptor. It's a 27" scale (technically a Baritone) 7-string.


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## darren (Feb 23, 2007)

ElRay said:


> Another pit to nick, Rondo Music also has the Agile Interceptor. It's a 27" scale (technically a Baritone) 7-string.



Technically, "baritone" is a range of notes, not a scale length. I've been making this argument for years. People instantly call anything with a scale length longer than 25.5 inches a "baritone" when it's simply not true. You can downtune a "regular" guitar into baritone range, and you can play an extended-scale guitar in standard tuning.

The longer scale length just makes the lower tunings sound better and play better, but having a longer scale does not necessarily make a guitar a "baritone" guitar.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 23, 2007)

darren said:


> Technically, "baritone" is a range of notes, not a scale length. I've been making this argument for years. People instantly call anything with a scale length longer than 25.5 inches a "baritone" when it's simply not true. You can downtune a "regular" guitar into baritone range, and you can play an extended-scale guitar in standard tuning.
> 
> The longer scale length just makes the lower tunings sound better and play better, but having a longer scale does not necessarily make a guitar a "baritone" guitar.



I prefer the term 'extended scale guitar' for just that reason.


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## ElRay (Feb 24, 2007)

darren said:


> Technically, "baritone" is a range of notes, not a scale length


I wasn't clear about where I was heading. I should remember not to post from work, on an empty stomach, during conference calls that I really didn't need to be on. Anyway, more on this later.


darren said:


> The longer scale length just makes the lower tunings sound better and play better, but having a longer scale does not necessarily make a guitar a "baritone" guitar.


True, but listing the Agile AB-3500 Baritone BK, aka Agile AB-3500 BK Long Neck as a Baritone just because it has "baritone" in it's name and ships tuned a 4th lower than standard, while ignoring the Agile 7-string, which goes as low a "standard" 6-string Baritone, and could easily be tuned to the same B-to-B (Major 3rds between each string) range is a bit inconsistent.

Along that line, how do you classify somebody's standard guitar that is tuned to all 5ths: G-D-A-E-B-F# (the G is a Major 3rd below a baritone's low-B)? http://www.tkinstruments.com/5ths_tuned_guitar_and_bass.htm

Back to:


darren said:


> Technically, "baritone" is a range of notes, not a scale length


Right, but is a "baritone" only a 6-string guitar that is tuned a 4th below standard? To quote a "popular" page about baritones, written by a bunch of folks that should be in the know:


> _From: http://www.hago.org.uk/guitars/baritone/index.html_
> 
> There's no general concensus on how a steel-strung baritone should be tuned...
> On the low end, the tuning can be A D G C E A five notes below the guitar, the same as the quint bass.
> ...


The label "baritone" is vague at best:
Is it only a 6-string guitar that is shipped from the manufacturer tuned more or less a 4th below standard?
Does that "baritone" lose it's status if it's tuned differently?
Should the label "baritone" be applied to any guitar where the open strings are tuned more or less a 4th below a standard 6-string (e.g. that Major 3rd tuned seven string)
Can the label "baritone" be applied to a "typical" (~25") scale length guitar that is tuned like TK's all-5ths?
Should "baritone" be applied to any guitar that stands a good chance of sounding reasonably decent tuned down more or less a 4th from standard?
I agree that, if you are talking in the context of a "Classical Ensemble" a "Baritone Guitar" should mean a guitar that is tuned a 4th or a 5th below a standard "Classical Guitar", regardless of the scale length. That's also probably a safe assumption if you're talking to folks that only think in terms of standard-tuned guitars with six strings; however, given that of 7-string guitars are almost ubiquitous, that 8 and 9-string guitars are not unheard of and that alternate tunings do exist, confining the label baritone to mean only a "Classical Baritone Guitar" is a bit restrictive.

Likewise, technically, any guitar that is in the 26-1/2" to 28-5/8" scale length range is a "long scale" guitar and not a "Baritone Guitar"; however, they can easily be tuned more or less a 4th below standard, and are colloquially referred to as baritones. Just like:
The vibrato bar is called a tremolo bar
An infinite radius fretboard is called a zero radius fret-board
What guitarists typically call "natural harmonics" aren't natural harmonics (people that read that just intonation thread and/or dig Mongolian throat singing know what I'm referring too)
Guitarists typically refer to certain fingering patterns as modes, completely oblivious to the fact that a mode only has meaning if there's a root/drone/etc. to give it context.
If I told folks I bought a long scale, infinite radius fret-board guitar with a vibrato bar, very few folks would know what I meant, and those that did would have to think about it. Whereas a baritone, zero radius fret-board with a tremolo would be almost universally instantly understood.

I think this is another one of those right vs. correct issues.

_{ Donning the asbestos suit }_
Ray


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## Hard Truth (Mar 8, 2007)

Elray posed these questions. My answers/opinions follow each question.

* Is it only a 6-string guitar that is shipped from the manufacturer tuned more or less a 4th below standard?

For me, a guitar designed to be tuned more or less a 4th below standard is a baritone guitar. The number of strings is not relevant However for my website (www.thebaritoneguitar.com) I focus primarily on six string baritone guitars since I consider seven strings to be a fairly different instrument since they require different techniques to play.


* Does that "baritone" lose it's status if it's tuned differently?

No. For me, as long as the pitch is more or less a 4th below standard guitar tuning, the tuning relationship between the strings is not relevant.


* Should the label "baritone" be applied to any guitar where the open strings are tuned more or less a 4th below a standard 6-string (e.g. that Major 3rd tuned seven string)

Yes.

* Can the label "baritone" be applied to a "typical" (~25") scale length guitar that is tuned like TK's all-5ths?

Again, the pitch range, not the specific tuning defines a baritone guitar. I suppose a standard guitar tuned to the baritone range can be considered a baritone, but I would expect that due to the shorter scale length intonation would be off, so it wouldn't be a good one.


* Should "baritone" be applied to any guitar that stands a good chance of sounding reasonably decent tuned down more or less a 4th from standard?

Only if it is tuned to the baritone range. For example I recall that Soloway guitars have long scales, but are primarily designed to be used with standard tuning. I would consider one of those guitars a baritone only if the end user tunes it to the baritone range.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 11, 2007)

Just out of interest, how would you classify tenor guitars that are tuned CGDA, or those old Schecter five-strings that were tuned CGDAE or AEBF#C#?


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## ElRay (Mar 11, 2007)

Hard Truth said:


> For me, a guitar designed to be tuned more or less a 4th below standard is a baritone guitar.





> No. For me, as long as the pitch is more or less a 4th below standard guitar tuning, the tuning relationship between the strings is not relevant.





> Again, the pitch range, not the specific tuning defines a baritone guitar.





> Only if it is tuned to the baritone range. For example I recall that Soloway guitars have long scales, but are primarily designed to be used with standard tuning. I would consider one of those guitars a baritone only if the end user tunes it to the baritone range.


You're mostly consistent, but in my experience, that's not how people typically use the label. Unfortunately, it is a term that people think they understand, and in my experience, use it in one consistent way: To mean a guitar with a scale length somewhere between a typical acoustic or electric guitar and a typical bass (most commonly 26-1/5" to 28-5/8"). Only in the "Classical Ensemble" frame of context, have I heard the term "baritone" essentially always used to mean "any guitar, regardless of scale length, tuned a fourth below a standard Classical Guitar".

If somebody buys a "Baritone Guitar", outside of the "Classical Ensemble", it stays a baritone regardless of how they tune it. Baritone is vague at best, misleading at worst. I intellectually, agree with Garry that using "vocal and woodwind nomenclature for guitars is absurd", but it's a term that is used in a common, albeit incorrect, fashion.

Ray


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 11, 2007)

I think we already mentioned that it's the same way 'tremolo' means totally different things to different people.

Whilst the usage of the word may be wrong, unfortunately it's not likely to go away...

Like I said, I prefer the term 'extended-scale guitar'...


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## Hard Truth (Mar 12, 2007)

Distressed romeo asked:
"Just out of interest, how would you classify tenor guitars that are tuned CGDA, or those old Schecter five-strings that were tuned CGDAE or AEBF#C#?"

I assume the instruments that you mention are tuned higher than standard guitar tuning. If so, then I suppose "tenor guitar" is the best designation. 

I recently read a good argument that all standard-tuning guitars are actually 'tenor guitars' due to their pitch range falling within the classical definition of tenor. The argument seemed reasonable, but i don't think that the world is going to change the name of the standard guitar anytime soon. So I think sticking to traditional definitions is probably the least confusing way to go regarding the definition of standard and tenor guitars.

However I agree that the confusion between vibrato and tremelo should be straighten out and the correct terms used.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 12, 2007)

Hard Truth said:


> Distressed romeo asked:
> "Just out of interest, how would you classify tenor guitars that are tuned CGDA, or those old Schecter five-strings that were tuned CGDAE or AEBF#C#?"
> 
> I assume the instruments that you mention are tuned higher than standard guitar tuning. If so, then I suppose "tenor guitar" is the best designation.



No, all the ones I mentioned are tuned below concert pitch, hence my bringing them up...

I've heard of six-string guitars tuned to the A above a normal guitars low E called 'parlour guitars' though...


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## Hard Truth (Mar 12, 2007)

Ah, i think I spotted one of the Schecter instruments you mentioned.

If they are roughly in the pitch range half-way in-between standard guitar and standard bass guitar then I would consider them baritone guitars.


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## iainvg (Jul 7, 2009)

darren said:


> Technically, "baritone" is a range of notes, not a scale length. I've been making this argument for years. People instantly call anything with a scale length longer than 25.5 inches a "baritone" when it's simply not true. You can downtune a "regular" guitar into baritone range, and you can play an extended-scale guitar in standard tuning.
> 
> The longer scale length just makes the lower tunings sound better and play better, but having a longer scale does not necessarily make a guitar a "baritone" guitar.


 
Actually you're wrong there, fine you may be able to detune a standard scale guitar to a baritone tuning, but it will be unplayable as the strings will be too loose. Secondly, you CANNOT baritone guitar to standard tuning, because, while you maybe able to get the 5th and 6th strings to correct tuning every other string will snap because of the extreme tension being applied on the strings, I have experience with this as i have built a few guitars myself, including a baritone (which i did try without success to tune to a standard tuning).

Hence, it is a prequisite to have an extended scale length for a baritone tuning, therefore meaning that it will be a BARITONE not just an ESLG.
Mine is tuned to ADGCEA with a 29.5" scale length, so at that length it is a true baritone, not as you skeptics would say, an extended scale length


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## darren (May 9, 2012)

Well, it's splitting hairs a bit. 

"Baritone" is the note range. Long scale lengths are required to achieve a playable guitar in that range. The former makes the latter necessary, but not necessarily the other way around. 

Personally, i wouldn't consider 27" to be a "baritone" scale length, because you can very easily play it in standard tuning, and many people do.


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## Ishan (May 9, 2012)

Necro bump of doom but interesting none the less  I plan on tuning one of my 6 to AEBF#C#E (NST down to A) is that considered baritone? (as it include both standard and baritone range I don't know  )


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