# What's the Deal With Some of These Gear Flippers?



## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 21, 2017)

Thread title says it all: what's the deal with some of these gear flippers? 

This one has a bit of a backstory. So bear with me.

Recently, I stumbled upon this guitar (FGN Private Stock Iliad) for sale on Reverb.com priced at $900. 







I messaged the guy, we went back and forth, and he was willing to settle at around $700. However, I ultimately decided to pass on purchasing the guitar because of the seller's outright dishonesty with me regarding a few chips that I noticed in the photos of the guitar. 

I searched up the guitar a few weeks later out of curiosity to find out it had been sold on March 31. I am assuming that the same offer that was extended to me was also extended to the final buyer. (The listing had the "make an offer" option available last I checked. So it could have been sold for more or sold for even less.)

Fast forward a few days after the sale and I notice the guitar almost immediately back up on Reverb.com listed by a different seller. This time for $2,000. (The guy quickly dropped price down to $1,700 after a few days, but the initial listed price was $2,000.)






Kind of an asshat move in my personal opinion.

I messaged this obvious flipper and asked what the deal was with the axe. I also told him that I knew the ballpark of what he really paid for it. Within a few hours, practically overnight, he outright ended the listing. No response. Nothing. Judging by the suspicious behavior, I'm guessing that he read my message and I'm guessing that the guitar definitely didn't sell (no "sold!" indicator on Reverb.com) and that he was trying to cover his ass. 

Because of how quickly he ended the listing after I inquired, I wasn't able to get a screenshot of the listing while it was active. So that screenshot above will have to suffice.

Seriously though. What is the deal with this crap? Do you guys accept and condone flipping like this? Or is this practice generally looked down upon? This asshat slapped an insane markup on a guitar that already took the initial/original seller over a year to get rid of. I could possibly understand a reasonable hundred or two tacked on top. But over $1,000+ markup on a guitar that isn't even worth that much? Come on. Talk about overhyping.


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## CapnForsaggio (Apr 21, 2017)

Literally EVERYTHING you buy is bought by someone else first, and then marked up before it is sold to you....

Albeit, this guy is a smaller operation than the Texaco down the street. It may not even be his primary form of employment.

What is so mysterious here?


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## coreysMonster (Apr 21, 2017)

I don't see anything wrong with it. One person sells something, the next person re-sells it, that happens. If somebody tries to make some money off the thing they legally bought, I don't see an issue.

Now scalpers, as in people / organisations that mass-buy hot/new items in order to turn profit out of creating an artificial middle-man, can go **********.


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## technomancer (Apr 21, 2017)

There have always been and always will be guys that take advantage of the unwary. If they're on here and are actually being dishonest and get caught we ban them, but we can't really do anything about profiteering unfortunately.


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## TedEH (Apr 21, 2017)

I've bought stuff used and sold them again for more than I originally paid, but it was never at that level, and I've never bought something specifically to flip it. Usually it was a matter of me legitimately believing it was worth what I was asking, or it was intentionally overpriced expecting someone to argue the price back down, but instead it was just taken as is. Like I bought a netbook for $50 and sold it later for $70. I had listed it higher because I expected someone to offer me the original $50, since that's what people do.

But making $10-20 on something is one thing, slapping a "RARE" title on something and adding $1000 is a whole other thing. That's a very deliberate move to try to take people for suckers, IMO. If it works, then fine, it was worth the asking price to someone, but I still find it kinda shady. It comes across to me as trying to take advantage of people.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 21, 2017)

Sometimes people even buy an amp from someone here that has been used for over a year for a great price... and then mark it up to nearly full price and say it is "only a month old" and "barely used". True story.


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## Mathemagician (Apr 21, 2017)

Nothing wrong with it. I got a super lowball offer on a guitar. I declined. But if I had accepted I wouldn't have been surprised to see it relisted later. A product is worth what someone is willing to pay for it. That's how everyone makes money.


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## TedEH (Apr 21, 2017)

Mathemagician said:


> Nothing wrong with it.



I wouldn't call it 'wrong' in the sense of a crime, but I sort of just see it as a d*ck move. Sort of like, sure, do that if you want, but I'd really prefer if you didn't.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 21, 2017)

I just find it more of an issue for those that buy the gear to flip and then hype the heck out of it: 

9.8/10
Barely used/basically new/etc
I've played a lot of these and this has the best tone/flame/quilt/etc <- 
Hate to part with it (Bruh please, you owned it for a week and played it for 15 min)


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## wakjob (Apr 21, 2017)

Are the 'American Picker' guys scammer/dick move people too?
IDK. The price is determined as to what the market will bear... right?

Some people like "flippers" are just wholesalers looking for underpriced things to turn around for a profit at the retail price.

Was the original price at 'book value'? Was there room to make some $$$ ?


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## extendedsolo (Apr 21, 2017)

wakjob said:


> Are the 'American Picker' guys scammer/dick move people too?
> IDK. The price is determined as to what the market will bear... right?
> 
> Some people like "flippers" are just wholesalers looking for underpriced things to turn around for a profit at the retail price.
> ...



I've been to their store and things are WAAAAY overpriced. It doesn't make them a dick for asking that amount of money, but it makes people an idiot for paying it.


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## Splenetic (Apr 21, 2017)

hmm..depends I guess. A while back I got a Schecter Omen Extreme for 120 because it looked like it was in rough condition. After I went through it and fixed it up, it turned out to be just on-the-surface issues and I got it back to near-new status. I could've sold it for 300-400 cause it retails for around 600 now (Canadian), but I ended up giving it to my buddy for 150. If I had sold it for 300 (effectively double what I bought it for), I wouldn't have felt bad at all.

Same way, if i found a 4k guitar for 1k, I would have no problem selling it for 2-3k IF it was worth that and people wanted to pay such prices for it. I don't come with a "we pass the savings on to you" clause, and anyone who does outside of maybe to friends and family, is a sucker. Just because the previous person may not know or care about a thing's value, it doesn't mean the buyer has to have the same attitude.


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## bulb (Apr 21, 2017)

That's the market for ya. It's not for everyone, obviously, but some people make quite a bit of money off of stuff like this. Nothing unusual.


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## Splenetic (Apr 21, 2017)

Oh for the record, I'm not a flipper. But I have caught deals before on axes i still own that I'd sell for more than I bought them for. Main reason: I'm not looking at how much I got it for, but how much i'd be able to get it for if I was to want to buy it back (used) right away.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 21, 2017)

I guess I should've thought out my topic for this thread a bit more carefully. Upon reading the responses thus far, I guess my issue is not specifically with "flippers" in this case. It's more so with people who outright try (a bit too hard) to take advantage of others and treat them like suckers. I doubt any of us would really condone such d*ck-ish behavior.



TedEH said:


> I wouldn't call it 'wrong' in the sense of a crime, but I sort of just see it as a d*ck move.


^ Bingo.

What kind of gets me here is that this guy clearly knew that he was being a d*ck. He outright ended the listing overnight after I sent him a message. Have you ever seen what happens when you catch a dog or a young child doing something that they are not supposed to be doing? Something that they know is wrong? They try to hide the evidence. This is the same behavior.



TedEH said:


> I've bought stuff used and sold them again for more than I originally paid, but it was never at that level, and I've never bought something specifically to flip it. Usually it was a matter of me legitimately believing it was worth what I was asking, or it was intentionally overpriced expecting someone to argue the price back down, but instead it was just taken as is. Like I bought a netbook for $50 and sold it later for $70. I had listed it higher because I expected someone to offer me the original $50, since that's what people do.
> 
> But making $10-20 on something is one thing, slapping a "RARE" title on something and adding $1000 is a whole other thing. That's a very deliberate move to try to take people for suckers, IMO. If it works, then fine, it was worth the asking price to someone, but I still find it kinda shady. It comes across to me as trying to take advantage of people.


I am sure that we all have by definition "flipped" something in the past for a few extra bucks.

For example, a few years back, I had a Vigier Shawn Lane Master Excalibur that I scored used at an insane deal for $1,800 (if I recall correctly). I had it for six months, then I had to sell it due to impending financial strains at the time. I sold it for $2,100 (again, if I recall correctly). So yes, I kept it for six months and then sold it for a $300 profit. However, I wasn't taking advantage of anyone or treating anyone like a total sucker. Whomever bought the guitar from me got a great deal because a Vigier Shawn Lane Master Excalibur goes for $3K+ brand new. And $2,100 was the exact amount that I needed in order to pay something off at the time. No more. No less. So, did I "flip" the guitar?



technomancer said:


> There have always been and always will be guys that take advantage of the unwary. If they're on here and are actually being dishonest and get caught we ban them, but we can't really do anything about profiteering unfortunately.


Good to know. 



CapnForsaggio said:


> Literally EVERYTHING you buy is bought by someone else first, and then marked up before it is sold to you.


Well, not everything.


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## Droptune666 (Apr 21, 2017)

After some research I've found out that the reverb user you have shown above is Zach K ( aka engage from this forum) he flips stuff all day long and has for years. There are threads about some guitars he's flipped on this page before, seems kinda like a shady dude.


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## Given To Fly (Apr 21, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I guess I should've thought out my topic for this thread a bit more carefully. Upon reading the responses thus far, I guess my issue is not specifically with "flippers" in this case. It's more so with people who outright try (a bit too hard) to take advantage of others and treat them like suckers. I doubt any of us would really condone such d*ck-ish behavior.



I think the word you want is "sleazy." It is ok not to like "sleazy gear flippers."


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## Drew (Apr 21, 2017)

Droptune666 said:


> After some research I've found out that the reverb user you have shown above is Zach K ( aka engage from this forum) he flips stuff all day long and has for years. There are threads about some guitars he's flipped on this page before, seems kinda like a shady dude.



Haha, really? That's awesome. I opened the thread simply because I was curious if this was about him. Sure enough...  

But no, really, the DSLR pictures totally make the guitar worth another $900. 

I think flipping like that is absolutely a dick move. The way I see it is this; we're a community, a bunch of guys who play guitar, are into gear, and sometimes buy and sell stuff. Every once in a while a pretty good deal comes up on something, and in a world without flippers, a player looking for a new guitar would jump on it, and would get a pretty cool guitar they'd play the .... out of for a decent price. Add flippers into the picture, however, and that likelihood drops significantly, as more likely than not someone who's looking to flip guitars to make money is going to either spot it first or outbid you, and then a week or two relist it for more money. 

I have two problems with this. One, just the general "guitars are meant to be played" mentality, where I feel like trying to flip guitars for profit just kind of cheapens what it means to be a musician. Idunno. It's just a vague feeling of discomfort about someone taking something that's brought me a lot of joy and trying to basically sell it out to make a quick buck. Two, though, is that because past sales are definitely a part of price-setting in a free market, I think flippers artificially inflate the price of guitars. Flipping is predicated on the concept of "the bigger sucker," where you get in on a bubble because you assume there's always someone out there who's willing to pay more than you did when the time comes to get out. And, oftentimes, there is - you post a guitar for sale at too high a price with really nice, glossy pictures, and every once in a while someone will snap at it and buy it. 

People talk about how a guitar is worth "whatever someone is willing to pay for it" but that badly oversimplifies market dynamics by ignoring the impact of personal preference. I started to go into it in depth and it was starting to get VERY long, so let's just summarize and say a guitar will sell to whoever is willing to pay the MOST for it, but that doesn't mean that that's a fair estimation of what any _average_ person would pay in an arms-length transaction; it's not an estimation of fair value, so much as value to a particular person. That would be a fair estimation of value if it was a unique item - say, a painting, or a sculpture, or some other unique work of art, but for production guitars that's not really the case in all but the rarest cases in the guitar world. 

So, long story short, flipping prices guitars out of the range of what an arms-length valuation between two willing participants would be, by attempting to find the absolute highest point anyone would be willing to pay for something. While that's good business for a flipper, the problem for everyone else in the market is this still is technically a form of price discovery and is now in the public record; if you happened to own the guitar in the OP and were thinking of selling it for a grand, and then you saw one sell for $1700, you're going to rethink your price in a hurry, no? 

Flippers would fall back and say, "yes, but that's the price someone is willing to pay," but there are two problems with that argument; one, literally, someONE is willing to pay that and they already own the guitar, and two, guitars are definitionally an arbitrage-free market. A rational response when you see a guitar that normally sells for $900 sell for $1700, in a TRULY efficient market, is to sell it short at that price, and expect that when pricing corrects (because you're betting that this extreme price is an aberration) you'll be able to cover your short position at a FAR lower price, and pocket the difference. Except (and if this really is engage, he would probably disagree ) you can't try to sell a guitar you don't own and can't deliver, so the opportunities to short guitars and put downward pressure on upward price anomalies just doesn't exist. So, sellers think a flipper price is sudden;y now fair value, and while they may not sell at quite that price, eventually they'll find someone willing to be the second biggest sucker and transact a couple hundred lower, etc. Basically, flippers excerpt a LOT of influence on a marketplace to ensure that sales happen at the highest possible range of value, rather than closer to where the median is likely to be, and anyone who actually plans on owning a guitar in the long run is probably going to have to overpay relative to a flipper-free world because of it. 

The irony is your average flipper would probably describe themselves as a liquidity provider, buying and reselling guitars to put them in the hands of those who want them most, whereas the reality is if there was any liquidity at all in the guitar secondary market there wouldn't even be the opportunity for the sort of price gouging we're seeing here. 

By the way, I guarantee you Engage didn't pull that ad because he felt guilty for being caught.


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## Mechanos71 (Apr 21, 2017)

People this forum are better without. That guy... and Methlab...


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## Ordacleaphobia (Apr 22, 2017)

bulb said:


> That's the market for ya. It's not for everyone, obviously, but some people make quite a bit of money off of stuff like this. Nothing unusual.





Malevolent_Croatian said:


> Oh for the record, I'm not a flipper. But I have caught deals before on axes i still own that I'd sell for more than I bought them for. Main reason: I'm not looking at how much I got it for, but how much i'd be able to get it for if I was to want to buy it back (used) right away.



Pretty much this.
The line in the sand is when things start getting misrepresented.

For example, someone on eBay just the other day got suckered into buying an Aliexpressmachine being sold as a Mercer build to the tune of $3,300. That's for a $300, built in China guitar. This is not okay.

Neither is buying something that's around a 6/10 in condition, then turning around and selling it as a 9/10 and not disclosing issues that you know the item has. I bought an S5470 sold as 'mint condition, no blemishes' and it arrived with a small chip in the body by the tone knob. Really small, we're talking like a 3mm chip, I probably would have bought it anyway, but the fact that it was deliberately hidden from me was infuriating.

However, I recently bought an Iron Label for a couple hundred bucks, cleaned it up, and resold it for a few hundred dollars in profit. I don't see an issue with this (clearly lol); I saw an opportunity (very low list price), got a chance to play with a guitar I was curious about for a little while to see if I liked it, and then made some money in the process by delivering someone a nice, cleaned up guitar sold at fair market value.


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## feraledge (Apr 22, 2017)

Droptune666 said:


> After some research I've found out that the reverb user you have shown above is Zach K ( aka engage from this forum) he flips stuff all day long and has for years. There are threads about some guitars he's flipped on this page before, seems kinda like a shady dude.



Jesus. Never doesn't disappoint. 
I love this line in the shop description: 


> Professionals and serious buyers only, please. *Forum trolls* and tire-kickers can move along. Low-ball offers will be ignored.


You can literally just look through the feedback left as a buyer to get an idea of what he paid on the stuff he's mostly just doubling the price on. It's not even hidden. And a used Duncan pickup for $100? Awesome dude, as always.


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## wakjob (Apr 22, 2017)

We have a resident member here that puts up some of the most desirable and unique gear in the classified section. Looks like they are always trying to get top dollar for the stuff. 

Must be a flipper me thinks. Never seen them post anything in a single thread as long as I've been around here.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 22, 2017)

wakjob said:


> We have a resident member here that puts up some of the most desirable and unique gear in the classified section. Looks like they are always trying to get top dollar for the stuff.
> 
> Must be a flipper me thinks. Never seen them post anything in a single thread as long as I've been around here.



I think I know who you are talking about, and he is a nice dude to deal with. He asks way too much in trades and his prices are too high, so much that I feel like it can never be a win-win with him.

Now that I think about it there is another guy here on the forums that I've seen selling in other forums. His demands are pretty ridiculous and he's been laughed out of other online sales communities.


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## Given To Fly (Apr 22, 2017)

wakjob said:


> We have a resident member here that puts up some of the most desirable and unique gear in the classified section. Looks like they are always trying to get top dollar for the stuff.
> 
> Must be a flipper me thinks. Never seen them post anything in a single thread as long as I've been around here.



"Desirable and unique" are the two traits that usually do not come cheap.


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## Señor Voorhees (Apr 22, 2017)

Most of what needed said was said. I do like how it's labled "fender destroyer" when it's not even mimicking a fender beyond the shape. You ain't getting tele tones out of that thing. That sort of cheesy hype would turn me off from buying it on it's own.

Edit: there's a difference between cheap and not full value. You don't gotta sell it cheap, but selling something you bought for 6k for 5900 isn't worth it.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 22, 2017)

Not to derail, but what a day to see this thread. Record store day is a perfect example of being a crappy person. Buying rare/limited vinyl with the sole intent to resale at an astronomical price is garbage.


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## gunch (Apr 22, 2017)

Profiteering is why the Aliens don't talk to us


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## Splenetic (Apr 22, 2017)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> For example, someone on eBay just the other day got suckered into buying an Aliexpressmachine being sold as a Mercer build to the tune of $3,300. That's for a $300, built in China guitar. This is not okay.
> 
> Neither is buying something that's around a 6/10 in condition, then turning around and selling it as a 9/10 and not disclosing issues that you know the item has. I bought an S5470 sold as 'mint condition, no blemishes' and it arrived with a small chip in the body by the tone knob. Really small, we're talking like a 3mm chip, I probably would have bought it anyway, but the fact that it was deliberately hidden from me was infuriating.



Oh for sure, in the first case, that's not just "not okay", that's criminal. There is literally no excuse for that in my mind. 

The second is just a dick move, but not worth getting aggravated over considering you say you'd have bought it anyway... I know what ya mean though.


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## downburst82 (Apr 22, 2017)

*edit* I just noticed the dolphin has wings...so clue why..


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## cip 123 (Apr 22, 2017)

It's a dick move but people can do what they want. If they're presented with the opportunity to mark something up and make some easy money I honestly don't hold anything against them. 

I've came in to some deals where I was sold something at a lower price just due to the sellers lack of knowledge. At times of low funds it's nice to have something I can sell for a bit of money.

Take an Ibanez I recently got, cheap RGA7. Seller thought it had different model pickups in it, the ones in it were actually better. I could if i wanted sell it for £50-70 more than I bought it for.


....But I'm gonna mod it instead.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 23, 2017)

Basically anyone who's done it will say it's not that bad, and those who don't flip gear in any sense (wether you made $50 or $500 it's still a flip) see it as a bad thing to some degree. I also love that people are saying it's a dick move, then admitting to doing it on a smaller scale and justifying it by saying it's not that bad because it's such a small amount. It's either all ....ty or it's not people 

Flipping is present in nearly all markets of the world, is it wrong for an investor to flip a house for profit? No. Because you take on all the risk by buying whatever you are and trying to make that profit. There are smart investments and there are risky ones, yeah I could find a really nice piece for sale used at a stellar price. Wether or not I profit off of it is completely dependent on buyers, the selling price will more than likely not be what it's originally listed at.

I've broken even or made a few hundred on nearly every trade/sale I've made, but as of two years ago when I started buying instruments new more often that's no longer the case. I've lost more cash reselling any instruments I pay full price for because I've now become the "first owner" in the chain of owners for the product. Does it bother me that eventually someone might underprice it, and then the person after will pick up the slack there and make a few bucks off of it? No, it doesn't matter to me nor affect me.

I remember the time I bought a TAM100 for the mid 2k's, and sold it for about $300-400 profit later. Pretty sure the new owner didn't give a .... because he still got over 25%-30% off what that guitar would have cost him in the first place.

The only thing that's wrong here is selling instruments without disclosing flaws, or berating and pushing deals that negatively impact the other party so you can come out on top.


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## Mechanos71 (Apr 23, 2017)

My primary issue with gear flippers, and I assume its most people's issue, is they literally add zero value to the product, but look to make a substantial profit. Purchasing an undervalued item and selling it near its actual value, I don't consider flipping. Instead I consider it taking advantage of economic opportunities and I think everyone is entitled to do that. Should you buy a guitar from Guitar Center at full price if you can get a 20% off coupon?

On the other hand gear flippers, at least the ones I have seen on this forum tend to be rather manipulative. They conjure stories of wondrous unobtainium, and say two weeks later for the simple price of $5000 it can be yours. Imo that's the reason Blackmachines sell for $15k. Its not because they are the best guitars in the world. That is arguable and not by me since I have never tried one. What is not arguable is that there has been a concerted effort by certain individuals to pump the prices and profit on the increase. Imo those people are scum who prey on actual hardworking people. I think Engage deserves the hate he is getting and I don't think its ok to equivocate making good deals with trying to fleece people.


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## feraledge (Apr 23, 2017)

It's fairly simple. We're all using this site because we're nerds with a problem: always going to be swapping, upgrading, increasing and eventually selling guitars in search of some truly nerdy thing. Pretty much all of us see that as a community where we're mutually interested in enabling each other in our obsession. These flippers dip in the same pool, but see it all as market. 
Finding a crazy pawn shop deal, turn it on craigslist and pocket a bit? Whatever. But I've sold a good bit on forums and bought more from them. I trust that everyone I'm dealing with is on the level and acting friendly, so I always give better pricing here than even Reverb and definitely than Ebay. It's not hard to make arguments for or against flipping, but it basically comes down to if you see this gear nerd world as a community of sorts or a place to make cash.


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## Given To Fly (Apr 23, 2017)

downburst82 said:


> *edit* I just noticed the dolphin has wings...no clue why..



I was going to comment on that very thing...


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## feraledge (Apr 23, 2017)

Given To Fly said:


> I was going to comment on that very thing...



Because it's his tern to flip.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 23, 2017)

feraledge said:


> It's fairly simple. We're all using this site because we're nerds with a problem: always going to be swapping, upgrading, increasing and eventually selling guitars in search of some truly nerdy thing. Pretty much all of us see that as a community where we're mutually interested in enabling each other in our obsession. These flippers dip in the same pool, but see it all as market.
> Finding a crazy pawn shop deal, turn it on craigslist and pocket a bit? Whatever. But I've sold a good bit on forums and bought more from them. I trust that everyone I'm dealing with is on the level and acting friendly, so I always give better pricing here than even Reverb and definitely than Ebay. It's not hard to make arguments for or against flipping, but it basically comes down to if you see this gear nerd world as a community of sorts or a place to make cash.



It's also got this unreal perspective of being a really good way to make money, but it's not unless you're actually scamming people or taking advantage of them. It's not a sustainable method of living. Profiting 2-300 every now and then on a sale or trade won't pay the bills or your mortgage. If anyone thinks this is a good way to make money, they must either be like I said scamming or have an absurdly low cost of living.


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## feraledge (Apr 23, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> It's also got this unreal perspective of being a really good way to make money, but it's not unless you're actually scamming people or taking advantage of them. It's not a sustainable method of living. Profiting 2-300 every now and then on a sale or trade won't pay the bills or your mortgage. If anyone thinks this is a good way to make money, they must either be like I said scamming or have an absurdly low cost of living.



I don't think people who own Blackmachines and Mayones are having an absurdly low cost of living or flipping for a job, probably more like extra funds in the gear allowance. My presumption could be wrong, but I've got a pretty good feeling it isn't.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2017)

Disclaimer: All the below is what I've had to deal with first hand and involves members here both past and present. 

If all the flippers were, were guys who moved a lot of gear at a profit, no matter how big, it wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, they're not in it for the money. They're in it to win, even if that means doing some pretty shady things. 

Large scale flippers have moved guitars so quickly that they actually list them for sale before receiving them using the original sale's photos. Think about it. They've never been in the same room, or state, or country, as the guitar in question but are describing the condition. When the guitar arrives at it's now 3rd owner, issues are discovered. 

The flipper is notified and then does one of the following: 1) blames the buyer, 2) offers a very small sum of money so long as the buyer doesn't post about the issue openly, 3) smears the buyer as a terrible person to do business with, 4) just ignores them. 

This has happened multiple times. 

Another popular flipper tactic is to post a ton of NGDs of a certain brand. Build up hype. Then, a week later they're all mysteriously for sale due to a serious "family emergency". Strangely, this tends to happen every few weeks and coincides with whatever luthier/brand is popular for the moment. 

I've even seen them go as far as making "replicas" of artist guitars and then trying to pass them off as the real thing. When caught, they claim they were the one being scammed. This is another one I've seen happen more than once. 

Want to know an easy way to tell the difference between someone with a major GAS problem and a shady flipper? Count how many forums/groups/boards/etc. they're banished from. If someone isn't allowed on half the guitar internet, there's probably a good reason. One of the most "popular" flippers out there is banned on no less than five large forums. 

They'll claim it's jealousy or a misunderstanding, but don't be silly. 

I'll look through some of my old PMs and see if I can recall any other good stories.


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## feraledge (Apr 24, 2017)

IIRC when this particular flipper got run off the old ESP forum I think he was claiming he was given a ESP EX by James Hetfield backstage years before the model came out. It was a spectacular lie to attempt to peddle on that forum. I think I looked to see if the threads transferred once or twice but gave up, I don't think they did.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 24, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> It's also got this unreal perspective of being a really good way to make money, but it's not unless you're actually scamming people or taking advantage of them. It's not a sustainable method of living. Profiting 2-300 every now and then on a sale or trade won't pay the bills or your mortgage. If anyone thinks this is a good way to make money, they must either be like I said scamming or have an absurdly low cost of living.



Works pretty good for Music Go Round, and a ton of other smaller, local shops. They pretty much live on low balling trade-ins to flip for slightly above market. 

We're obviously not talking about someone throwing an extra $100 to $300 on top of a $1200 guitar every now and then, but people who typically have a few dozen $2500+ guitars with in excess of $500+ on top of market. 

But that's besides the point, as those who are moving $50k in gear around aren't doing this to pay the bills.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 24, 2017)

Yeah good point


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## TedEH (Apr 24, 2017)

I know it's a completely different market, but I feel like this kind of flipping is a lot of the reason "vintage" video games are so expensive now. I've known some guys who made a lot of money on the side just snapping up everyone's used old games, and reselling them as "rare, hard to find" games. The N64 games that everyone had as a kid sell for higher now than they did back when they were new, and I can see no reason for it other than flippers and pawn shops and the like cashing in on people's nostalgia.

I guess the point being, there's always gonna be someone out there trying to squeeze some money out of anything worth anything.


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## protest (Apr 24, 2017)

I think it depends on a few things:

- Where you got it from
- How long you owned it
- How you price it
- How you describe it

I bought an ESP at my local GC for $200 because it was labeled an LTD. I owned it for a couple years, but the super thin neck that was fun to play always wound up messing with my hand. I traded it for an Ibanez Prestige 8 string because I wanted to try an 8, and I immediately didn't like it. I sold the 8 string for $900. So I made $700 off that ESP. 

I don't have a problem with anyone that finds a good deal at GC, or a yard sale, or Craigslist and winds up making money off of it. 

My issue comes in when someone buys something from a forum or Reverb, immediately relists it for several hundred dollars more, and maybe most importantly hypes up what it is and the deal that you're getting. This is especially true of people that do it often. 

I mean, how many super rare Artist Pack PRS guitars that are the best looking PRS you've ever seen that I won't find priced like this anywhere except from the guy that you just bought it from 3 days ago who had it listed for $700 less do you have?

There was a guy on Reverb that had a "RARE" Artist Package PRS listed as brand new at the brand new price, but his user name was like Bud's Gear Depot. So I messaged him about the newness and he said "yes it's brand new. I bought it from a store about 4-5 months ago".....no mention of that in the listing, just brand new.


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## coreysMonster (Apr 24, 2017)

Jonathan20022 said:


> *The only thing that's wrong here is selling instruments without disclosing flaws*, or berating and pushing deals that negatively impact the other party so you can come out on top.



Aren't there laws against that? I mean obviously it's immoral, but isn't it also illegal?


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## Drew (Apr 24, 2017)

MaxOfMetal said:


> lots of stuff



Yup. Part of it is the simple profiteering, and that DOES bother me. But the bigger part of it is straight up shadiness. 

I rememeber an Engage transaction - attempted, at least - where I think he listed a RG GOLD for sale on Jemsite as "mint" condition at a fairly premium price, until someone else posted a link to the thread on a different site where he had bought it (for about half what he was selling it for) and the seller described it as a 7.5 out of 10 or something along those lines, and then went into detail about four or five flaws that Engage hadn't mentioned. 

When called out he said that after playing it at band practice that night (note: to the best of my knowledge he doesn't have a band, and the point where he first began to rub me wrong was when someone asked him in the earlier days of this site why all these guitars he was posting for sale had all these hi-def pictures that he said they played amazingly and had been his main player for a while, etc, yet they all didn't seem to have a single pick scratch on them, and he claimed he'd "changed his picking technique" so as not to leave marks) and it was such an awesome guitar that he'd changed his mind, was going to keep it, and if anyone wanted it, well, too bad, they'd missed their chance to own this guitar at what he considered to be a very fair price. 

Like, come _on_, man.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 24, 2017)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Works pretty good for Music Go Round, and a ton of other smaller, local shops. They pretty much live on low balling trade-ins to flip for slightly above market.
> 
> We're obviously not talking about someone throwing an extra $100 to $300 on top of a $1200 guitar every now and then, but people who typically have a few dozen $2500+ guitars with in excess of $500+ on top of market.
> 
> But that's besides the point, as those who are moving $50k in gear around aren't doing this to pay the bills.



I guess the difference is even at music go round the prices are still cheap and fair for the most part. There are times I found things cheaper than I could ever find them on the internet. I feel like Music go round is all about quantity of sales and turning things around quickly and making a few hundred less than holding onto it for 4 months. Guys on the internet are deceptive and want a pretty much new price for a used guitar.


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## ElysianGuitars (Apr 24, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Thread title says it all: what's the deal with some of these gear flippers?
> 
> This one has a bit of a backstory. So bear with me.
> 
> ...


That guitar is still up on Reverb, I'm guessing he blocked you.

https://reverb.com/item/4866337-fgn...-off-amazing-tele-telecaster-fender-destroyer


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 24, 2017)

coreysMonster said:


> Aren't there laws against that? I mean obviously it's immoral, but isn't it also illegal?



Absolutely, but pursuing that and filing charges isn't very easy. State to State juridstiction and the cost of going after someone like that is usually not worth the finances and more importantly the time.

The best you can do is publicly out that person in the most transparent way possible, IE. Chat Logs, Photos, etc. It's happened a few times here, and if you were truly scammed, you can do your best to prevent that person from ever dealing in the community again. This is all assuming the seller/trader hasn't tried to make amends or cancel and revert the sale or trade.

I once bought an RG Prestige for my cousin on Reverb awhile back and the asshole had the gal to send me a guitar that was visibly more damaged than his photos. Reverb took care of him and gave me my money back and I just gave the guitar away to someone.


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## CGrant109 (Apr 24, 2017)

Did anyone else read this thread title in a Jerry Seinfeld voice? No? Just me? Okay.

I've had this happen to me before with a guitar and a bicycle. It sucks, but there will always be people who are looking to make a profit off something.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 24, 2017)

ElysianGuitars said:


> That guitar is still up on Reverb, I'm guessing he blocked you.
> 
> https://reverb.com/item/4866337-fgn...-off-amazing-tele-telecaster-fender-destroyer


He relisted or reposted. I can still see and access the listing.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Apr 24, 2017)

technomancer said:


> There have always been and always will be guys that take advantage of the unwary. If they're on here and are actually being dishonest and get caught we ban them, but we can't really do anything about profiteering unfortunately.



OH this seller is quite the character. He is definitely on here and has definitely been banned for hype flipping.

This guitar is still for sale elsewhere at $1,500.

You basically just have to frequent every gear outlet and learn about who they are to avoid dealing with them.

I get both sides of the story and have mixed feelings. There's nothing wrong with making a buck IMO but it's better to be fair and not try to make a living off other people's sweat and that's Exactly what some of these guys do.

They also seem to do very well at that. Good for them.

This brings me to my next thought. Price bashing. Why is it not ok? I understand you don't want constant low ballers clogging a thread but when I see a forum buddy ready to pay over double of what I know the seller paid I'd kind of like to call them out on that.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 24, 2017)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> This brings me to my next thought. Price bashing. Why is it not ok? I understand you don't want constant low ballers clogging a thread but when I see a forum buddy ready to pay over double of what I know the seller paid I'd kind of like to call them out on that.



I think it's because people can be petty and it goes from being informative and providing information to a complete .... show. I used to help mod a Facebook sale group, and before people were not allowed to do it, Price Bashing was a hassle to keep in check.

People can't control themselves and will get emotional in the process instead of just saying, hey this was available for X amount Y amount of days/weeks/months ago. At the end of the day, it's up to a potential buyer to stay informed and do their research on a guitar. Especially with sites like eBay and Reverb having their listings available well after the sale goes through with some minimal effort in searches. 

I once had a Suhr Modern that was fantastic that was listed at 2000, five weeks prior to the new owner and new listing. He had it at 2600, so I messaged him and asked if he would be okay with taking 2200 + Shipping for it. He accepted, I ended up not liking the neck profile and traded it with a member on here and then I saw another kid list it at 3500 nearly everywhere. So some obvious profit was made there if it sold anywhere near that much to him.


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## FourT6and2 (Apr 25, 2017)

If someone wants to buy an $800 guitar and then try to resell it at $15,000... that's their prerogative. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Want to complain about it? Go for it. Smart buyers will do their own research and figure out what they're willing to pay for something. If they get suckered into overpaying, that's their own fault. Caveat emptor. Any intervention by the Used Gear Police is simply an attempt to govern the free market and impose their ethics and morals upon everyone else. If the buyer isn't operating under duress, and the seller isn't committing fraud, then there shouldn't be any problem.

Basically, what I'm saying here is... big whoop. A guy is attempting to sell gear at prices higher than market value. More power to him. That's the game he wants to play, I say good luck to 'em. Will I be buying? Nope. But he's certainly free to list whatever it is he's selling at any price he wants. And if someone is willing to pay that price, cool. It's got nothing to do with me.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 25, 2017)

If someone buys a guitar and puts it back up for sale, and your dumb enough to buy it for double, you didnt do your homework.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 25, 2017)

FourT6and2 said:


> If someone wants to buy an $800 guitar and then try to resell it at $15,000... that's their prerogative. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Want to complain about it? Go for it. Smart buyers will do their own research and figure out what they're willing to pay for something. If they get suckered into overpaying, that's their own fault. Caveat emptor. Any intervention by the Used Gear Police is simply an attempt to govern the free market and impose their ethics and morals upon everyone else. If the buyer isn't operating under duress, and the seller isn't committing fraud, then there shouldn't be any problem.
> 
> Basically, what I'm saying here is... big whoop. A guy is attempting to sell gear at prices higher than market value. More power to him. That's the game he wants to play, I say good luck to 'em. Will I be buying? Nope. But he's certainly free to list whatever it is he's selling at any price he wants. And if someone is willing to pay that price, cool. It's got nothing to do with me.



Yeah but it won't stop us from judging him!


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## TedEH (Apr 25, 2017)

extendedsolo said:


> Yeah but it won't stop us from judging him!


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## Womb raider (Apr 25, 2017)

The sword cuts both ways to me. For every guy you have flipping a 1k guitar for 2k, you have 10 guys trying to buy a 2k guitar for 800 bucks and a beat up Epiphone.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 25, 2017)

Womb raider said:


> The sword cuts both ways to me. For every guy you have flipping a 1k guitar for 2k, you have 10 guys trying to buy a 2k guitar for 800 bucks and a beat up Epiphone.


accurate.


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## TedEH (Apr 25, 2017)

If I had a dollar for every time I was offered Xbox games instead of money for music gear....


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## FourT6and2 (Apr 25, 2017)

extendedsolo said:


> Yeah but it won't stop us from judging him!



Oh, fo sho!


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 25, 2017)

TedEH said:


> If I had a dollar for every time I was offered Xbox games instead of money for music gear....


 

I hear that happens quite often. However, I've never received such offers since all of my gear is way out of the price range of those types of people.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 25, 2017)

Womb raider said:


> The sword cuts both ways to me. For every guy you have flipping a 1k guitar for 2k, you have 10 guys trying to buy a 2k guitar for 800 bucks and a beat up Epiphone.



Or the equivalent of trading a dollar for two quarters.



TedEH said:


> If I had a dollar for every time I was offered Xbox games instead of money for music gear....



I had an offer for a EBMM BFR that included a list of items the person was willing to trade. It included an old apple book and a couple assualt rifles. I really almost always prefer cash now and try to make it known.


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## oracles (Apr 25, 2017)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> If someone buys a guitar and puts it back up for sale, and your dumb enough to buy it for double, you didnt do your homework.



I chalk a lot of it up to this. As a buyer, if you're not doing your homework on what the average used price is, then you kind of deserve it IMO. It's not up to anyone else to ensure you're getting a fair price, that's your responsibility. People do price comparisons on a whole host of other things, but seemingly draw the line at gear, and it's never made sense to me.



Womb raider said:


> The sword cuts both ways to me. For every guy you have flipping a 1k guitar for 2k, you have 10 guys trying to buy a 2k guitar for 800 bucks and a beat up Epiphone.



Every f*cking time...


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## TedEH (Apr 25, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I've never received such offers since all of my gear is way out of the price range of those types of people.



I normally only sell the stuff that isn't of much value, 'cause otherwise I'd rather just hoard all the good stuff.


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## prlgmnr (Apr 25, 2017)

It's infuriating isn't it.

I mean, I'd even consider trades like, a bunch of decent pedals for an amp or guitar. But it's never that, is it? It's "I've got a trem off a 93 squier strat, a Tanglewood acoustic, two Gibson neck pickups and a well used but ill-understood copy of John Petrucci's Rock Discipline"


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## TheTrooper (Apr 25, 2017)

I think that as long as You are not trying to scam people, You can sell Your stuff at the price you like.

I don't see what the problem is if I find a '59 Les Paul at 5K and resell it at 500K (Because, let's face, I'M GONNA FIND A '59 FOR 5K); if the owner wanted to sell it for that price, I don't see why I shouldn't resell it at the price I like.

Now, for the little I know, Zach does a lot of sales/trades everywhere (I only talked to him maybe twice and he always seemed like a nice guy, but never done deals with him) and since he is pretty well known (good or bad it is) he probably has more ways to reach more people = more people willing to pay the price asked.

He bought the guitar for a low price, nothing prevents him or anybody to resell it at a higher price (even if it's not worth it; that's his problem)* as long as issues* are correctly represented.
He wrote the guitar is worth 4000$ new; True? False? There's always Google to find out.

If the guitar is not worth that much, who cares?
Your fault If you overpay it, not his.


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## frogman81 (Apr 25, 2017)

I once messaged "engage" about a Regius Gothic. He told me that "All of periphery one was recorded with it too!"... I didn't go for it, and I was a little skeptical of that statement at the time, but this thread makes me wonder if there was any truth at all to that story...

On a different note, I've never seen a community that buys into hype like this online guitar community. But then again, I've never geeked out about anything else to the online forum level. I suppose there's probably fly-fishermen hyping their personally-endorsed flies to the online fly fishing community somewhere in cyberspace.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 25, 2017)

TheTrooper said:


> He wrote the guitar is worth 4000$ new; True? False? There's always Google to find out.


100% false. 

I've owned another FGN Private Stock guitar. So I know what they cost. True, utilizing Google to check the prices of other FGN Private Stock guitars could help. Furthermore, I know what the previous owner paid for the guitar when he was a FGN artist and FGN offered him a custom Private Stock guitar in exchange for advertising. (Typical endorsement marketing.) And I know the range of what Khoury paid for the guitar.



frogman81 said:


> I once messaged "engage" about a Regius Gothic. He told me that "All of periphery one was recorded with it too!"... I didn't go for it, and I was a little skeptical of that statement at the time, but this thread makes me wonder if there was any truth at all to that story.


Could you give me the timeframe behind this event? If this is the same Regius Gothic that I'm thinking of, I also seem to recall him blatantly lying around various groups/forums and saying that a couple other djent bands recorded an album with it.  (He pretty much said a different band had used it on each group/forum.  )


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## frogman81 (Apr 25, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Could you give me the timeframe behind this event? If this is the same Regius Gothic that I'm thinking of, I also seem to recall him blatantly lying around various groups/forums and saying that a couple other djent bands recorded an album with it.  (He pretty much said a different band had used it on each group/forum.  )



It was May 2013.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 26, 2017)

frogman81 said:


> I once messaged "engage" about a Regius Gothic. He told me that "All of periphery one was recorded with it too!"... I didn't go for it, and I was a little skeptical of that statement at the time, but this thread makes me wonder if there was any truth at all to that story...
> 
> On a different note, I've never seen a community that buys into hype like this online guitar community. But then again, I've never geeked out about anything else to the online forum level. I suppose there's probably fly-fishermen hyping their personally-endorsed flies to the online fly fishing community somewhere in cyberspace.



I've never understood how do you prove that a band recorded with a specific guitar? Does it really increase the value? Outside of legends owning or playing the guitar, Periphery isn't really the type of band to add value to a guitar. I would just feel really lame saying things like "yeah man PERIPHERY recorded with this guitar." Because either you look like a dorky fanboy that likes to lie, or if you pull out the proof you come off as an insecure dorky fanboy. Maybe someone here can shed some light on it, but to me, the value is in the instrument itself. 

I'll also never understand how an autograph on a guitar can increase it's value. To me, the value is still in the guitar unless it's a really really difficult to get the autograph.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Apr 26, 2017)

extendedsolo said:


> I've never understood how do you prove that a band recorded with a specific guitar? Does it really increase the value? Outside of legends owning or playing the guitar, Periphery isn't really the type of band to add value to a guitar. I would just feel really lame saying things like "yeah man PERIPHERY recorded with this guitar." Because either you look like a dorky fanboy that likes to lie, or if you pull out the proof you come off as an insecure dorky fanboy. Maybe someone here can shed some light on it, but to me, the value is in the instrument itself.
> 
> I'll also never understand how an autograph on a guitar can increase it's value. To me, the value is still in the guitar unless it's a really really difficult to get the autograph.



Never underestimate the hype.

Like, it would be cool knowing that X band that I liked recorded or wrote with my guitar, but I wouldn't pay any extra for it. And the only way I would fully believe these claims anyway is if I either bought the guitar directly from one of the guys or found some type of reasonable proof, like unique mods, specific dings, etc.

Signatures are the one thing I will never understand. 
"YEAH DUDE MY RG7321 IS SIGNED BY STEVE VAI SO ITS WORTH $800 NOW"


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## hairychris (Apr 26, 2017)

feraledge said:


> I don't think people who own Blackmachines and Mayones are having an absurdly low cost of living or flipping for a job, probably more like extra funds in the gear allowance. My presumption could be wrong, but I've got a pretty good feeling it isn't.



I sold my B7 to a guy who I think may have sold it straight on for a profit...

Not massively ideal for sure, but I'm not too bummed because I made on the deal (guitar was owned from new) which I used in the process of buying an apartment, and he was also a known quantity so I had little hassle with the deal.

The guitar was also well used and kinda looked it... so I got a fair price at least! Not sure about the next guy in the chain though. 

But yeah, I do agree with the gist of the thread. Straight flipping sucks, especially if buyer then re-advertises in same place that they bought it.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 26, 2017)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Never underestimate the hype.
> 
> Like, it would be cool knowing that X band that I liked recorded or wrote with my guitar, but I wouldn't pay any extra for it. And the only way I would fully believe these claims anyway is if I either bought the guitar directly from one of the guys or found some type of reasonable proof, like unique mods, specific dings, etc.
> 
> ...



I would argue writing on a guitar makes it worth less since it usually looks stupid. I don't want anyone writing on a guitar I own. I know that Bill Kelliher of Mastodon has sold some of his guitars online that he owned. A couple of them are prototypes and such, but I wouldn't pay more for them unless I were into collecting. A guitar is meant to be played, not looked at in my opinion.


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## Drew (Apr 26, 2017)

TheTrooper said:


> He bought the guitar for a low price, nothing prevents him or anybody to resell it at a higher price (even if it's not worth it; that's his problem)* as long as issues* are correctly represented.
> He wrote the guitar is worth 4000$ new; True? False? There's always Google to find out.



Two comments here. 

One, he DOES have a track record of not describing issues or describing things accurately. Off the top of my head, there was the RG-GOLD sale I'd mentioned it where he tried to sell a guitar as mint at a very premium price until someone posted the ad where he bought it, and the seller had described a number of issues in that sale that he didn't mention. Another one that's coming to mind on this forum was he was trying to sell an iPad and someone asked him if it was the 16 or 32gb model, and he replied that "he thought it was the 32" (which is the kind of thing you shouldn't "think" if you've ever hooked it up to a computer, you should know), until someone who worked in an Apple store pointed out that the model number clearly visible on the back of the body in his pictures was the 16gig version. Plausible deniability, of course, but there's zero chance that was an innocent mistake. 

Two... Statements like "this guitar sells for $4,000 new!" are things that for the most part can be verified easily enough on Google, and someone already has done so and pointed out that it's straight-up false. So, does that mean the burden is on the consumer? I think a useful comparison is what would happen if someone bought that from a commercial guitar store; if Guitar Center was selling a guitar and in their ebay ad stated "this was $4k new, buy it for $2k!" and someone did, and then later learned that, say, it was a $2500 guitar and he paid 80% of the original price rather than 50%, consumer protection laws would give them a pretty solid basis for a lawsuit. Heck, they very well might for private sellers as well, I just haven't ever researched it. But, long story short - if you're making knowingly false statements to sell something, that's not "the buyer's fault" if they listen to you - what you're doing is criminal, plain and simple, and you're the one bearing legal liability for that transaction.


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## feraledge (Apr 26, 2017)

That "artist owned" thing is ridiculous. I've bought and sold four guitars that were "artist owned" from the "artists" and if I said anything, it was after the sale as a little fun fact. I saw one of those guitars go as "artist owned" years later for almost 3 times what I sold it for.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 26, 2017)

Drew said:


> I think a useful comparison is what would happen if someone bought that from a commercial guitar store; if Guitar Center was selling a guitar and in their ebay ad stated "this was $4k new, buy it for $2k!" and someone did, and then later learned that, say, it was a $2500 guitar and he paid 80% of the original price rather than 50%, consumer protection laws would give them a pretty solid basis for a lawsuit. Heck, they very well might for private sellers as well, I just haven't ever researched it. But, long story short - if you're making knowingly false statements to sell something, that's not "the buyer's fault" if they listen to you - what you're doing is criminal, plain and simple, and you're the one bearing legal liability for that transaction.


It might be time to research consumer protection laws in regards to private transactions. Khoury has a very lengthy history of misrepresenting stuff that he tries to sell (or has sold). I'm sure that there are plenty of folks across the various forums who have been burned by dealing with him.


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## extendedsolo (Apr 27, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> It might be time to research consumer protection laws in regards to private transactions. Khoury has a very lengthy history of misrepresenting stuff that he tries to sell (or has sold). I'm sure that there are plenty of folks across the various forums who have been burned by dealing with him.



I mean even if there are, how in the world are you going to enforce a transaction like this?


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## illimmigrant (Apr 27, 2017)

It's really funny to see this thread, because I saw a PRS on Reverb I considered getting once, only to find it being flipped and sold for much more later. I don't remember who was flipping it, but I do remember thinking "man, what an a-hole" haha. So I share a lot of the sentiments already expressed here. I've been fairly giving with the pricing on the guitars I've sold on here and it pains me to see people overpaying for gear. I actually reached out to Reverb on that occasion and they said they don't monitor flipping and that it is perfectly within the rules of the website. It's simply an item been put up for sale by the owner of that item. What price tag he puts on it, is his own prerogative. Reverb makes it really easy to track things that are being bought and sold within Reverb. So do your homework before buying anything.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 27, 2017)

I think many of the essential points have been covered, so I'll just say a quick word (EDIT: not so quick) about flippers and 'flipper-apologists'.

Flippers don't exist in a vacuum. And I'm sure some of them are alright people outside of how they trade gear, so to roundly condemn either them or their friends is a little naive. But insofar as most of us only interact with these people via the trading side of things and stand to be the suckers that get preyed on when the gear inevitably gets flipped, I do think the conversation that's occurring in this thread is one that needs to happen. 

You see a handful of guys on here move a lot of gear--multiple listings at once, sometimes as many as a dozen (albeit usually consolidated within one thread), and with regular frequency. There's also a 'system' for describing the gear which, in its own way, comes to stand in as a storefront of sorts for these people: how damage/wear is described, how the photos are taken, the prices they normally set, and (occasionally) their history with the guitar, be it their reason for selling or their impressions of its quality, etc. This occasionally includes links provided to NGD threads for 'additional photos', when those threads have the potential to be full of gushing praise for the instrument being sold. 

None of the above is _necessarily_ shady, really, not at all. But don't underestimate the power of advertising, because that's exactly what this is. Especially when you're seeing these listings all the time, they will become familiar in a way that, say, Drum City Guitarland is familiar as a storefront. And yet the details themselves are often meaningless or arbitrary: there's one guy on here (I won't say his name because I don't think he's a flipper and don't want his name dragged through the mud) that uses a point-based system to rate the condition of the guitars; as best I can tell, 9.5/10 is average and 8.5/10 is more like player's condition. Think about how effective that is as a sales tactic. Lead with a high number so the buyer thinks, 'eh, it can't be that bad if it's an 8.5', throw in a disclaimer that it has 'a few nicks here and there, but nothing crazy for a [X] year-old guitar', and then provide some high-quality photos that 1) let the buyer decide for themselves how bad the damage is and if it matters to them, and 2) portray the guitar in an absolutely stunning way that helps bolster its appeal rather than detract from it (a convenient side-effect). 

Again, nothing wrong with this. But this is Coca-Cola selling to you here, not the rare bookseller. To unpack that analogy and relate it to the example above: there isn't a standardised nomenclature for describing wear, and the intent of the listing is to pitch rather than to document. 'Here's why the guitar is alluring and why you should buy it; oh look, some pretty pictures!' This isn't the musician's equivalent of, 'small inscription of former owner to title page, occasional marginal inscriptions in ink. Foxing on pastedowns and facing leaves; worm hole to last leaf with loss of some letters and further wear to adjacent leaf. Text is clean and readable throughout, but binding worn with cosmetic damage, concentrated on the lower third of the spine. In all, a fair to good copy'. 

Is this a strawman? Do any guitar sellers describe instruments in this way? Well yes, some do, anyway. Check out this random listing by Rich from Ibanez Rules. Notice that his pictures are not 'artistic' with ulterior motives, and that he goes to great lengths to describe cosmetic wear because if it matters to you, he has 3 more guitars of that model in stock in better condition. And finally, notice that he is able to advertise in this way because he is a proper store with a specific kind of clientele, and therefore he can afford to find you what _you_ want vs. try to convince you why the one guitar he has is 'the one for you.' 

This is all relevant to this discussion because the line between the dealer's section and the member's listings section is sometimes blurred by these flippers. And the difference between the high-volume member-sellers and the flippers often isn't so clear: some guys are just trying to work out a format for easily posting listings for the dozens of guitars they go through on a monthly basis because they're benevolent gearwhores, and others are consciously manipulative bulksellers who are trying to profiteer on what they see as an opportunity in a market built completely on trust. 

So here's the point, then: I know some of you reading this might fall in the former category above and take offence to what I've written here because what separates you from the flippers basically boils down to intent. I'm also aware some of you will have had lots of contact with the usual suspects through the various gear trading Facebook pages and forum marketplaces, and may feel the need to defend them either because your own experiences with them were positive ones, or find that it is uncomfortable to admit what they're doing is wrong when you're doing something rather similar yourself. Do not do this. In a community centred on trying new instruments to find your musical match or simply just for the sake of it, gearwhores of any magnitude can be abided. But this is not at all the same as preying upon the market for a profit (the details and means of which have already been elaborated in this thread), and the things you're explaining away by arguing the philosophical merit of buying low and selling high stand to do more damage than what you stand to gain by (mostly correctly) asserting that _you yourself_ should not feel bad about buying and trading guitars frequently in a way that ensures you won't go broke. 

To respond to something Jonathan said earlier, namely that it is hypocritical for people to say it's okay to flip one guitar but not twenty because it's 'either all fair or nothing is', that is not true at all. It's also essentially the issue that lies at the heart of this. You can't help it if you bought a $3000 guitar for $500...why would you take a loss on potential profit just because you got lucky? Sell that guitar for the market price and don't feel guilty. However, if you're selling twenty guitars in a month, being cutthroat with other members in trades to further your magins, and seeking out deals on used gear just to make the largest profit possible off of other people (e.g. members of this forum), you really ought to reconsider what you're doing. It isn't fair to the buyers (because you're being downright manipulative and your intent is demonstrably malicious), and more importantly, it puts a strain on the buyer-markets which go 'round on the good faith of their members. You're being a leech in a very Kantian sense. It's getting to the point now that people are paying brick-and-mortar store prices for used gear, only they get no consumer protection outside of what's offered by paypal, there's no 'responsibility' on behalf of the seller to conduct their business in a fair and courteous way, and there is a slim-to-none chance of a refund/return if one of the involved parties is not happy with the sale. So I have to ask where's the value? What is justifying the inflated asking prices aside from thinly veiled greed parading around as a GAS addiction? 

Obviously some sh!t goes on on the buyer's side of things as well. However, people really need to stop justifying the behaviour of serial flippers just because you share a hobby with them.


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## prlgmnr (Apr 27, 2017)

Sermo, that's a really really good post.

But remind me to watch out for you if you ever say "can I pop in for a quick cup of tea"


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## no_dice (Apr 27, 2017)

Sermo, if rep was still a thing, I'd throw some positive your way. I agree with a lot of points you made.

One user who deals a lot in bulk on here (or used to) tried to get some of my stuff on trades more in his favor, and even went so far as to have another user contact me when he was banned to try and facilitate a deal. 

If wheeling and dealing is your thing, then whatever. I'm not the morality police. When I sell on here, it's either because I've lost interest in the item, or I'm hurting for money. I feel like I'm always fair with people though.


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## domsch1988 (Apr 27, 2017)

Basically, that's the reason i never bought something used in years. The really good deals (i'm not talking about someone not knowing what they have. Just a good, fair price from a private seller) are snapped by professional dealers minutes after the offers hit websites (i had dealers call me as close as 30 seconds after posting an ebay listing).
Most used guitars and amps i see knowadays are so close to new prices that i'd rather ad a hundred bucks to go into the store, pick the guitar i like and get the waranty on top. Plus supporting local businesses is nice too.

Granted, i'm not big into vintage gear or rare stuff for that matter as my funds don't allow me to do so. If i'd try to find a specific year Les Paul or one of the limited PRS Holcomb signatures this might be different. But for the mid range stuff it's just not worth it anymore (for me at least)...


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## TedEH (Apr 27, 2017)

domsch1988 said:


> snapped by professional dealers minutes after the offers hit



Locally, I think I'm lucky to be in an area where this doesn't happen very much- not for music gear. But it absolutely happens here for old video games. There's basically a handful of retro game shops that buy up everything of value, so they can jack the price up and put them in their stores. There's no reason for PS2 games to cost almost as much as they did when they were new, other than to keep retro game stores in business. 

I fully understand the whole "value is what people will pay" thing, but IMO that's an entirely artificial value that often has no grounds in reality and leaves a lot of room to interpret what's "fair" or not. As soon as prices need to be artificially inflated by the market this way, IMO, the item has no real "value" and it just becomes a question of who's the better negotiator, and how much either party is willing to squeeze more money out of the other at the expense of "fairness". Going back to the games as an example, it's clearly just sellers exploiting the demand/nostalgia to inflate prices for their own benefit, the items aren't really "worth" the asking price (outside of the "I just reaaaaaally want that" factor).


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## vilk (Apr 27, 2017)

^but isn't that also true of brand new products? It's only just that you don't have the perspective of passed time to decide how much they ought to have been devalued?


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## domsch1988 (Apr 27, 2017)

vilk said:


> ^but isn't that also true of brand new products? It's only just that you don't have the perspective of passed time to decide how much they ought to have been devalued?



To be fair, from an economics perspective, markets in general are a really complicated beast. In theory a manufacturer would ask a price low enough where he is able to sell all his stock, but high enough so demand doesn't overshoot the production massively.
But in the real world we rarely have a case of "not enough produced". We live in a world where everything is buyable at anytime basically (apart from the Nintendo switch apparently ). In the case above (Video Games) this gets a touch of cartel style business where all local Game Shops more or less agree on an inflated price. That's generally not a good idea. That's why, in Germany at least, the government regulates which companys can buy which other companys to work around a monopolistic setting and asks major fines from companys that artificially set prices.

Back to our "problems": I feel the new market for guitars works really well. Never before where we able to purchase such high quality instruments for such low prices. This is indicative of a good working market.

On the used market i have some expectations as a buyer. Apart from "rare" or really vintage instruments, i expect age and use to have a depreciation value. So, lets say a guitar costs 1000$ new. If it's 5 years old, got played, has some dings in it but is in good shape, that should be reflected in price. And not in a 950$ price tag with a description "as new". Also, the fact i have no warranty on the instrument should lower it's price. If the difference in getting a 5 year old, used instrument without warranty is 10% under the new price, that's not really a fair deal (imho).


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## TedEH (Apr 27, 2017)

vilk said:


> ^but isn't that also true of brand new products? It's only just that you don't have the perspective of passed time to decide how much they ought to have been devalued?



Not really. I mean, there's a part of the value of anything sold that amounts to "we just decided to mark up by this much, cause that's the point we figure we can make a decent amount of money and people will still want to buy it at that price", but a lot of what goes into a price are things like production costs, or whatever other overhead might have been incurred while making that product available. Like, if you were the original maker of a game/guitar/whatever else, you have the time and materials that went into building and packaging the product, then your marketing, the shipping, etc. Part of the price is still artificial, but part of the price has a basis in the realities of making that product happen and getting it to you.

Buying up other people's undervalued used products doesn't have that overhead. The production cost doesn't matter because you didn't produce it. The marketing cost doesn't matter because you didn't do the marketing (if anything, you're riding for free on existing marketing). I don't count the business overhead as part of the value of the item when it's used because the item would still be out there and available without that business being there to display it in a slightly fancier setting.


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## jsmalleus (Apr 27, 2017)

In cases where people are buying things and jacking up prices to that extent to take advantage of people, that's pretty unsavory. I'll admit I've flipped an axe or two under the right circumstances though.

I've found crazy low prices on some brand new axes in the past, whether due to promotions or pricing algorithm activity, etc., snagged one (usually for myself) or occasionally got another site to price match a second one in case a friend might want in and doesn't have a chance to catch the promo.

Sometimes it works out great (most recent one I bought/sold was a new esp ltd ec-401 w/hardshell case, stand, strap, picks, cable & a tuner I got for $335, sold the axe bundle plus a marshall half stack to a friend for $450 for his kid's bday, he loved it). Sometimes things fall through and it just sits there in my room for a while, then I get gas for something else, so I'll put it up for sale. Say, for example, it's usually $1k for the guitar, I get it for $500, I put it at like $600 (expecting to have to drop to $575) on CL or $650 on ebay, after seller fees and shipping I pocket like $50-$75. I've always just made a mental note and put that towards selling another piece of gear I have for next to nothing to a friend or dude in a local band, giving a CL dude just starting out learning guitar or getting into gear a break, or outright giving people's kids who want to learn or adults I know are going through a hard time instruments.

I've never moved mad gear or bought more than three of anything (kept both hellraiser extremes I ordered and a friend wanted the third before I even placed the order), but I've done it a handful of times when the deal was too good to resist. In the end the dude who missed the original deal pays me $650 rather than the $1k since he missed the promo/algorithm error (if the price is still low, I'll point them there instead), plus I get to meet other musicians somewhere I won't run up a bar tab & destroy what's left of my liver lol, and not take such a $ hit when when I help out a friend. Really the only one losing out is the retailer that price matches, and I might as well be signing my paycheck over to that company anyways so they're not really losing haha.


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## MikeH (Apr 27, 2017)

Everything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.


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## Jonathan20022 (Apr 27, 2017)

Sermo makes a great point, I wasn't really defending serial flippers it was more of a call out on people who say that it's so wrong to flip. But then mention that they themselves have made some cash this way as well. But either way, knowledge is very important here and I think that buyers should educate themselves and ask us and others for advice and information. I encourage anyone to post on the forums when they have a trade or deal they don't have much understanding of. Sometimes you might not know much about the two guitars but someone on here can set you straight on what their true costs are and what their going rates are. I've dealt with flippers before, and there's always a lean towards their benefit in every deal we try to strike. So more often than not I just decide against it.


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## wannabguitarist (Apr 27, 2017)

I've sold every guitar but one for a slight profit. Most of them were Craigslist deals I thought I'd love but didn't mesh with. Another guitar I sold shortly after buying to make a down payment on a car. Ended up with a slight profit because the seller really wanted it and it was really hard to pin down a value (one off with multiple owners and prices over the 20+ years it's floated around). Flipping is absolutely fine if you're not scummy about it 

The guitar community is really weird about these things compared to the automotive community. A lot more money gets thrown around in the former on rare, one off, or discontinued parts but there seems to be very little hype on used ..... Rare stuff gets snapped up quickly, but no one ever seems to hold onto parts with the hope of reselling them later.



hairychris said:


> I sold my B7 to a guy who I think may have sold it straight on for a profit...
> 
> Not massively ideal for sure, but I'm not too bummed because I made on the deal (guitar was owned from new) which I used in the process of buying an apartment, and he was also a known quantity so I had little hassle with the deal.
> 
> The guitar was also well used and kinda looked it... so I got a fair price at least! Not sure about the next guy in the chain though.



I might be confusing your username with another member's, but you had one of the snakewood ones right? I loved that guitar when I first joined 



frogman81 said:


> I once messaged "engage" about a Regius Gothic. He told me that "All of periphery one was recorded with it too!"... I didn't go for it, and I was a little skeptical of that statement at the time, but this thread makes me wonder if there was any truth at all to that story.



Periphery released a bunch of videos during the recording process of PI (and all of their albums. Since I'm a massive fanboy I've watched all of them and I'm pretty damn sure there wasn't a Regius involved in the PI videos


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## TheTrooper (Apr 28, 2017)

Drew said:


> Two comments here.
> 
> One, he DOES have a track record of not describing issues or describing things accurately. Off the top of my head, there was the RG-GOLD sale I'd mentioned it where he tried to sell a guitar as mint at a very premium price until someone posted the ad where he bought it, and the seller had described a number of issues in that sale that he didn't mention. Another one that's coming to mind on this forum was he was trying to sell an iPad and someone asked him if it was the 16 or 32gb model, and he replied that "he thought it was the 32" (which is the kind of thing you shouldn't "think" if you've ever hooked it up to a computer, you should know), until someone who worked in an Apple store pointed out that the model number clearly visible on the back of the body in his pictures was the 16gig version. Plausible deniability, of course, but there's zero chance that was an innocent mistake.
> 
> Two... Statements like "this guitar sells for $4,000 new!" are things that for the most part can be verified easily enough on Google, and someone already has done so and pointed out that it's straight-up false. So, does that mean the burden is on the consumer? I think a useful comparison is what would happen if someone bought that from a commercial guitar store; if Guitar Center was selling a guitar and in their ebay ad stated "this was $4k new, buy it for $2k!" and someone did, and then later learned that, say, it was a $2500 guitar and he paid 80% of the original price rather than 50%, consumer protection laws would give them a pretty solid basis for a lawsuit. Heck, they very well might for private sellers as well, I just haven't ever researched it. But, long story short - if you're making knowingly false statements to sell something, that's not "the buyer's fault" if they listen to you - what you're doing is criminal, plain and simple, and you're the one bearing legal liability for that transaction.



Absolutely, If your selling stuff by making false satement You deserve to be sued/persecuted/hanged/whatever it needs to get the money back to the guy that bought that stuff based on false infos.

The "I think it's X model.." is the oldest trick in the world; if somebody tries to pull that gimmick on me, no matter how much I want the stuff he's selling, I buy that stuff somewhere else (even if it's pricier) just because he tried the smarta*s move.



Emperor Guillotine said:


> 100% false.
> 
> I've owned another FGN Private Stock guitar. So I know what they cost. True, utilizing Google to check the prices of other FGN Private Stock guitars could help. Furthermore, I know what the previous owner paid for the guitar when he was a FGN artist and FGN offered him a custom Private Stock guitar in exchange for advertising. (Typical endorsement marketing.) And I know the range of what Khoury paid for the guitar.



Yeah, the thing is, I am (and others are) very very careful with Sales, even if I am the one selling.
That's what screw the kids: they see the cool photos, they see the expensive stuff that they want to buy and rush the deal like it's the last thing they'll do in their lives.
They don't research the seller on Google, they don't ask references.....


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## Drew (Apr 28, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> In a community centred on trying new instruments to find your musical match or simply just for the sake of it, gearwhores of any magnitude can be abided. *But this is not at all the same as preying upon the market for a profit* (the details and means of which have already been elaborated in this thread), and the things you're explaining away by arguing the philosophical merit of buying low and selling high stand to do more damage than what you stand to gain by (mostly correctly) asserting that _you yourself_ should not feel bad about buying and trading guitars frequently in a way that ensures you won't go broke.




Excellent, excellent, excellent post. 

From my personal experience - I've bought or sold a number of guitars over the years. I generally either buy new, or buy and sell within a community of players I know (back in the early days of this site, here, lately, the MG boards). When I do, I try to sell at a price that I consider fair to the buyer. Over the years, I think I've only sold one guitar for more than I paid for it, and that was an Ibanez RG7-CST, one of maybe 18 in the world. I don't bond with it, so I sold it, it wasn't to someone I knew well but I felt like it was going to a good home (and it was - I don't know if the guy still owns it, but I knew that as of several years after the sale he did). Even then, my profit on the sale was about $100... and, since right at the very end of the deal he mentioned he'd just had a kid, I tossed $50 into the case with a note saying to spend it on a nice bottle of wine to celebrate. I guess I sold a Dingwall that I got in trade for more than I paid for the guitar I traded for it, but again I thought (near as I could tell - transaction info on Afterburner 5s was a little tough to come by) that it was a price where the buyer wouldn't feel badly about it. 

I think at the end of the the day it's a lot like karma, where if you're trying to maximize your profit at the extent of the community, you're asking for trouble in the long run. The CST in particular was an interesting one, where I had a guy offer me a LOT of money for it back when I wasn't interested in selling, and when I actually decided to sell, I had no intention of selling it to him. Something about replying to a PM of "Sorry, but I literally just bought this guitar and I'm not selling it" with "everything has it's price. What do you want" leaves a bad taste in your mouth.


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## hairychris (May 2, 2017)

wannabguitarist said:


> I might be confusing your username with another member's, but you had one of the snakewood ones right? I loved that guitar when I first joined



Yep, probably me, I still have that one! I always told myself that I'd be buried with the B7, but needs change.

If I ever sell the B2 I will really _extract the urine_ with the price...


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## BangandBreach (May 5, 2017)

It doesn't really bother me what someone else does with their stuff/money.


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 5, 2017)

BangandBreach said:


> It doesn't really bother me what someone else does with their stuff/money.


You're looking at it from the wrong perspective.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 5, 2017)

caveat emptor as always. Khoury was just trying to sell some french single cut prototype claiming that it was a first act custom for 1.8k. Most first act customs I've seen are made in Massachusetts, not france.  https://reverb.com/item/5022666-wil...ilver-first-act-custom-shop-electrical-guitar


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## Drew (May 5, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> caveat emptor as always. Khoury was just trying to sell some french single cut prototype claiming that it was a first act custom for 1.8k. Most first act customs I've seen are made in Massachusetts, not france.  https://reverb.com/item/5022666-wil...ilver-first-act-custom-shop-electrical-guitar



No clue, but the ones I've played - back when they had a shop on, um, I think Newbury street, I randomly walked past one day and stuck my head in on a whim - were garbage. Their cheap $200 guitars felt better than the multi-thousand customs I played. Then again they were clearly going for a different demographic, more of a "novelty" guitar sort of thing, more of a department store/pawn shop special than a "boutique" ethos, so the fact they felt pretty junky might have been by design.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 5, 2017)

Drew said:


> No clue, but the ones I've played - back when they had a shop on, um, I think Newbury street, I randomly walked past one day and stuck my head in on a whim - were garbage. Their cheap $200 guitars felt better than the multi-thousand customs I played. Then again they were clearly going for a different demographic, more of a "novelty" guitar sort of thing, more of a department store/pawn shop special than a "boutique" ethos, so the fact they felt pretty junky might have been by design.



good to know. i have a first act bass that my cousin gave me years ago and it's perfectly fine for me-since I basically never play bass. Nothing wrong with it minus .... pickups. fret ends are good, no buzzing, it's set up well. The couple of first act guitars I've tried have ranged anywhere from "holy .... this is like getting my hand raped by razorblades" to "this is playable". I don't think I'd ever waste my time on one of their customs.


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## Wildebeest (May 5, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> You're looking at it from the wrong perspective.


I could say the same about your thought process.


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## Webmaestro (May 5, 2017)

I've only read a few of the replies here, so I'll just limit my thoughts to the idea of gear flipping/whoring in general, and not the topic of jacking prices.

Could guitar flipping be a generational phenomenon? Much has been written lately about how Gen Y and/or Millennials tend to prefer using, borrowing, or renting objects rather than owning them outright. They tend to prefer experiences over possessions. You know... the "sharing economy" and all that.

(It's possible someone's already brought this up and I just missed the post)


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 5, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> caveat emptor as always. Khoury was just trying to sell some french single cut prototype claiming that it was a first act custom for 1.8k. Most first act customs I've seen are made in Massachusetts, not france.  https://reverb.com/item/5022666-wil...ilver-first-act-custom-shop-electrical-guitar


He is saying that it is like or similar to a FACS axe in terms of build and design. (Trying to sucker people in with a false comparison or false point of reference.)

All FACS guitars were made in Boston (or more accurately, Somerville). All First Act SFA Edition guitars were made in Korea. And all normal First Act guitars are made in who-the-f*ck-knows-where. 



KnightBrolaire said:


> good to know. i have a first act bass that my cousin gave me years ago and it's perfectly fine for me-since I basically never play bass. Nothing wrong with it minus .... pickups. fret ends are good, no buzzing, it's set up well. The couple of first act guitars I've tried have ranged anywhere from "holy .... this is like getting my hand raped by razorblades" to "this is playable". I don't think I'd ever waste my time on one of their customs.


The FACS guitars were amazing axes. They were real guitars and of very high custom shop quality. Nothing like the toys.

The FACS was founded and run by a team of the best luthiers from the Gibson Custom Shop back in the day. They split off, and First Act funded the venture. Thus, First Act's name got slapped on the headstock. (Notice that around 2007-2010 when the shop was heavily active, a lot of Gibson artists or former Gibson artists were receiving guitars from the FACS.) Shame that the shop got shut down, but that's a perfect example of the power of branding. It can run a business into the ground.



Wildebeest said:


> I could say the same about your thought process.


Think about it this way. The flipper in this case is saying (to the community): "F*ck you. I'm going to lie and convince you that this guitar is something that it is not in terms of value, and I'm going to try to make a quick buck off you because you're a sucker."


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## KnightBrolaire (May 5, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> He is saying that it is like or similar to a FACS axe in terms of build and design. (Trying to sucker people in with a false comparison or false point of reference.)
> 
> All FACS guitars were made in Boston. All First Act SFA Edition guitars were made in Korea. And all normal First Act guitars are made in who-the-f*ck-knows-where.
> 
> ...



ah good to know. Maybe if I ever spot one for cheap I'll test it out. I still don't have any singlecuts in my collection..


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## Drew (May 8, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> He is saying that it is like or similar to a FACS axe in terms of build and design. (Trying to sucker people in with a false comparison or false point of reference.)
> 
> All FACS guitars were made in Boston (or more accurately, Somerville). All First Act SFA Edition guitars were made in Korea. And all normal First Act guitars are made in who-the-f*ck-knows-where.
> 
> ...



Where in Somerville? I live there, I never knew that. 

I found their custom guitars REALLY underwhelming when I played a bunch at their shop on Boylston street, but part of that was definitely design - I don't recall glaring cosmetic or playable issues (but this was ages ago, if I had to guess I'd have said '05, or so, maybe a little earlier, if the timing works out there? I don't know when they started production, but I didn't work downtown for five years after mid-05, so more likely than not it would have been 04-05 since I was rarely on Boylston street after that), but it was definitely going for an old Sears catalog spec sort of vibe, the sort of guitar designs you could see Jack White being drawn to,. 

Anyway, it's surprising to me that "First Act" is being used as a GOOD association for a guitar.


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## TedEH (May 8, 2017)

Drew said:


> Anyway, it's surprising to me that "First Act" is being used as a GOOD association for a guitar.



I've only ever run into that name on some pretty terrible stuff. Instruments that are more like toys than instruments.


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## Jeffbro (May 8, 2017)

Flipping used gear for years crew checking in

When a "good condition" GC guitar comes in mint, I'm gonna sell it as mint

When a mislabeled guitar is listed dirt cheap, I'm gonna sell it for what it worth

You should call me a saint since I get those guitars to people that are actually looking for them but wouldn't have found it otherwise

Haters gonna hate


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 8, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Flipping used gear for years crew checking in
> 
> When a "good condition" GC guitar comes in mint, I'm gonna sell it as mint
> 
> ...


But are you blatantly going to lie about the value of the guitar, blatantly lie about the condition of the guitar, put an absurd price tag on it, and then overhype it far beyond what it really is with used car salesman tactics?


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## KnightBrolaire (May 8, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> But are you blatantly going to lie about the value of the guitar, blatantly lie about the condition of the guitar, put an absurd price tag on it, and then overhype it far beyond what it really is with used car salesman tactics?



from everything he wrote I would assume not, plus, even if he was price gouging/pulling shady crap he's not going to admit to it on here


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## TedEH (May 9, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> You should call me a saint since I get those guitars to people that are actually looking for them but wouldn't have found it otherwise



Wait... what? How does buying something just to raise it's price and profit from it count as a service to the item's final owner? You didn't do anyone any favors, you just made the same instrument more expensive for the same potential buyers.

I think it'd be one thing if "flipping" gear was like flipping a house or something, where you fix it up or do something to add value before reselling it, but that's not what's happening here. Even if it was something like buying up old instruments, cleaning them up, giving them a decent setup then reselling them- I could be down with that. Take something with little value, give it some new life, sell to someone who will appreciate a fixed up player.

You know what would make you more saintly in that regard? If you didn't buy the guitar, but instead pointed out the existing great deal to an enthusiast who might really appreciate the instrument without taking an unnecessary financial hit for it.


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## Drew (May 9, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> You should call me a saint since I get those guitars to people that are actually looking for them but wouldn't have found it otherwise



So, you have some special source for used guitar that is closed to the rest of us? Because otherwise, I'd kinda think that anyone putting even moderate work in looking for a particular guitar likely would have found it where you did, you know? All you're really doing is adding another layer of cost to the transaction and making the eventual buyer paying a higher price that they would have without you, as far as I can see.

But, hey, prove me wrong.


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## Jeffbro (May 9, 2017)

Drew said:


> So, you have some special source for used guitar that is closed to the rest of us? Because otherwise, I'd kinda think that anyone putting even moderate work in looking for a particular guitar likely would have found it where you did, you know? All you're really doing is adding another layer of cost to the transaction and making the eventual buyer paying a higher price that they would have without you, as far as I can see.
> 
> But, hey, prove me wrong.





TedEH said:


> Wait... what? How does buying something just to raise it's price and profit from it count as a service to the item's final owner? You didn't do anyone any favors, you just made the same instrument more expensive for the same potential buyers.
> 
> I think it'd be one thing if "flipping" gear was like flipping a house or something, where you fix it up or do something to add value before reselling it, but that's not what's happening here. Even if it was something like buying up old instruments, cleaning them up, giving them a decent setup then reselling them- I could be down with that. Take something with little value, give it some new life, sell to someone who will appreciate a fixed up player.
> 
> You know what would make you more saintly in that regard? If you didn't buy the guitar, but instead pointed out the existing great deal to an enthusiast who might really appreciate the instrument without taking an unnecessary financial hit for it.



I do set up and fix guitars if needed before flipping them. Often the most profit I get is when a guitar is mislabeled, which means people who search for that particular guitar probably wouldn't have found it. The result is they get what they want, I get $$$.

Every dealer adds a cost in exchange for getting it to buyers easier. If you hate it then buy it straight from the factory.

Like I said, haters gonna hate 

Seriously though... you want people to spend their spare time to find deals then give it away for free? Are we living in imagination land where people don't want money? lol...


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## TedEH (May 9, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Seriously though... you want people to spend their spare time to find deals then give it away for free? Are we living in imagination land where people don't want money? lol...



The average buyer, as far as I know, isn't asking anyone to look for deals on their behalf. I'd much prefer that if a person happened upon a great deal but had no interest in the product themselves they'd either just do nothing, or pass along the info to someone they think might be interested. Snapping it up just to jack up the price ruins the deal.


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## Jeffbro (May 9, 2017)

TedEH said:


> I'd much prefer that if a person happened upon a great deal but had no interest in the product themselves they'd either just do nothing, or pass along the info to someone they think might be interested. Snapping it up just to jack up the price ruins the deal.



Yeah, just pass up a quick $500 so someone else can get that $500. No thanks...

Let's be real, if people claim they would't buy an ESP mispriced as a $300 LTD, with plenty of funds in the bank and regardless of interest, most people would be lying.


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 9, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Yeah, just pass up a quick $500 so someone else can get that $500. No thanks...
> 
> Let's be real, if people claim they would't buy an ESP mispriced as a $300 LTD, with plenty of funds in the bank and regardless of interest, most people would be lying.


No one is dumb enough to do that when it says "ESP" on the headstock. You legitimately have no idea what you're saying and are desperately trying to rationalize away cognitive dissonance.

And also, I've stumbled across great deals on pieces of gear in the past that friends/acquaintances happened to be interested in. So, you know what I did? Instead of purchasing the gear and then attempting to be an asshole and take advantage of these friends/acquaintances, I've merely just passed the word along and pointed them to the deal. (Sometimes, they have been so grateful that they have given me a finder's fee.) But you know what? Because of my actions, I am way more of a saint than you and your pompous, misguided ass.


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## Andromalia (May 10, 2017)

Let the dude go, he's just trolling. He was doing the same on the Kiesel debacle topic some time ago i fmemory serves me right.
I'd also bet my shirt that "wild custom" is one of their regular asian imports, too.


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## Demiurge (May 10, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> caveat emptor as always. Khoury was just trying to sell some french single cut prototype claiming that it was a first act custom for 1.8k. Most first act customs I've seen are made in Massachusetts, not france.  https://reverb.com/item/5022666-wil...ilver-first-act-custom-shop-electrical-guitar



I don't know anything about the builder, but I think that there should be a price ceiling for guitars that feature such classy appointments as a "FVCK OFF" switchplate.


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## Drew (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Seriously though... you want people to spend their spare time to find deals then give it away for free? Are we living in imagination land where people don't want money? lol...



I'm with you right up to here. 

You're spending your spare time finding "deals" that you can then resell at a profit. I don't want you to spend your time doing this and then "give it away for free," I want people who actually WANT the guitar to do this, and potentially get a deal on a guitar they plan on keeping, rather than get sniped or get into a bidding war with someone looking to make a quick buck. 

What you're doing isn't doing them a favor - you're literally making money at the expense of the guitarist who ultimately ends up with the guitar, and would have bought it for less if they didn't have to contend with a middle man. 

Aren't you some sort of Carvin apologist anyway? That's their whole business model, cutting out the middle man.


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## TedEH (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Yeah, just pass up a quick $500 so someone else can get that $500.



Absolutely, because a) I have a job, so I don't need to do sketchy nonsense to make a quick buck and b) it's still a d*ck move.

And c) it's very likely that someone else who would buy it at that price is doing it cause they want the item, not because they saw an opportunity to make a quick buck.

Arguably there are lot of "ways to make a quick buck" that boil down to being willing to be that guy who pulls the d*ck move nobody else wants to do.


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## Jeffbro (May 10, 2017)

TedEH said:


> Absolutely, because a) I have a job, so I don't need to do sketchy nonsense to make a quick buck and b) it's still a d*ck move.
> 
> And c) it's very likely that someone else who would buy it at that price is doing it cause they want the item, not because they saw an opportunity to make a quick buck.
> 
> Arguably there are lot of "ways to make a quick buck" that boil down to being willing to be that guy who pulls the d*ck move nobody else wants to do.



Being the "nice" guy doesn't get you ahead in life

When you see that $300 Jackson at GC and know it's a USA Jackson, you should also know the next guy who realizes it is going to buy it regardless if he actually wants the guitar. It's your profit to lose... and I'm not dumb enough to lose a few hundred $$$ for the minutes it takes to resell it.


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## TedEH (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Being the "nice" guy doesn't get you ahead in life



Ahead of what? Life isn't a competition. I'm perfectly happy not "scoring every quick buck" I come across. I'm perfectly happy letting someone who actually wants an item get it for a good price.



Jeffbro said:


> I'm not dumb enough to lose a few hundred $$$ for the minutes it takes to resell it.



"Lose" is a relative term. You're not losing anything because you didn't have it in the first place. Much like putting something on sale doesn't "save" you any money if you didn't have to buy it in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning behind taking such an opportunistic approach to gear buying/selling, and it's not illegal or anything like that. If you think you have to do that, I don't think anyone will convince you otherwise. I don't think it should be surprising that it's not a well received practice though.


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## Jeffbro (May 10, 2017)

TedEH said:


> Don't get me wrong, I understand the reasoning behind taking such an opportunistic approach to gear buying/selling, and it's not illegal or anything like that. If you think you have to do that, I don't think anyone will convince you otherwise. I don't think it should be surprising that it's not a well received practice though.



I never said I had to, but I've made a lot doing it with minimal amount of work. Just pointing out this whole thread is dedicated to criticizing flipping guitars for profit. There's nothing wrong with it unless it's then falsely advertised. Any used dealer of anything is flipping things for profit, often overpriced. Why can't individuals do it?


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## TedEH (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> There's nothing wrong with it



There's equally nothing wrong with criticizing it, or preferring that people didn't do it.


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## Drew (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> I never said I had to, but I've made a lot doing it with minimal amount of work. Just pointing out this whole thread is dedicated to criticizing flipping guitars for profit. There's nothing wrong with it unless it's then falsely advertised. Any used dealer of anything is flipping things for profit, often overpriced. Why can't individuals do it?



Yes, and we're all lining up to sing the praises of used instrument dealers with a reputation for buying cheap and selling for top dollar.


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## TheTrooper (May 10, 2017)

What he is saying it's not wrong: If You find a good guitar with a good resale value at a low price (enough to make you think: "I can buy it and fix/whatever and get double the $$$) You buy it and resell it, simple as that.

I guess everybody would do that for a living if that kind of opportunities (I'd like that) presented themselves, but, as he said* "as long as it is not falsely advertised"*.

That's the key, right there.

Also let's not be hypocrites, everybody likes $$$.

Everybody.


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## Señor Voorhees (May 10, 2017)

I dunno... If I ever found a mint Gibson Voodoo Explorer for $300, I'd definitely buy it and sell it for more of a typical price. (Which is a lie, as I'd keep it, but let's just use it as an example.)

It's not all that shady to find somebody who done goofed and offers a mislabeled guitar for a stupid price. Yeah, it'd be nice if the buyer actually wanted it, but it'd be silly to pass up something like the before mentioned Voodoo. Hell, if you buy it cheap enough, you can still sell it for under what people sell it on average and walk away with some decent profit.

There's a line somewhere, but buying cheap stuff to sell for a more typical price doesn't seem to cross that line to me. It'd have to be one hell of a goof to entice me to flip it though. If it's only a couple hundred bucks, I'll more than likely let someone else who might actually be into it know.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> I never said I had to, but I've made a lot doing it with minimal amount of work. Just pointing out this whole thread is dedicated to criticizing flipping guitars for profit. There's nothing wrong with it unless it's then falsely advertised. Any used dealer of anything is flipping things for profit, often overpriced. Why can't individuals do it?



that kind of became the point of the thread, how khoury willingly misrepresents things to get a sale. Like the link I posted where he's trying to sell a random french guitar as a First Act custom. or when he claimed that his mayones was used on Periphery 1.
Flipping gear is perfectly acceptable, being a douche and obfuscating details in order to flip the gear is what bothers me.
Personally I have no problem flipping guitars. or anything else that'll make me $$. It's not my job to make sure people know the value of something and if they're getting hosed, that's their responsibility. I do think some people in this thread need to get off their moral high horse like they would never try to make a profit on something like guitars/gear.


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## TedEH (May 10, 2017)

Señor Voorhees;4740585 said:


> There's a line somewhere



That's always the catch. There's clearly a line, but not everyone would draw that line in the same place. I think everyone feels like others would draw those lines in the same place they would, but that rarely turns out to be true. I'd buy that Explorer because I dig explorers and I'd keep it, but I'd otherwise leave it alone.  Unless I'm really hurting for cash, I wouldn't be able to justify it.


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> Being the "nice" guy doesn't get you ahead in life
> 
> When you see that $300 Jackson at GC and know it's a USA Jackson, you should also know the next guy who realizes it is going to buy it regardless if he actually wants the guitar. It's your profit to lose... and I'm not dumb enough to lose a few hundred $$$ for the minutes it takes to resell it.


No one is dumb enough to do that when it says "MADE IN USA" on the back of the headstock. You legitimately have no idea what you're saying and are desperately trying to rationalize away cognitive dissonance.

From a professional standpoint, being the "nice" guy has gotten me pretty far, honestly. People like to be around me and they like to conduct business with me.



Jeffbro said:


> There's nothing wrong with it unless it's then falsely advertised.


And that was my whole issue in starting this thread. The item that sparked my initial post is being grossly misrepresented.



KnightBrolaire said:


> that kind of became the point of the thread, how khoury willingly misrepresents things to get a sale. Like the link I posted where he's trying to sell a random french guitar as a First Act custom. or when he claimed that his mayones was used on Periphery 1.
> 
> Flipping gear is perfectly acceptable, being a douche and obfuscating details in order to flip the gear is what bothers me.


On point.


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## Jeffbro (May 10, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> No one is dumb enough to do that when it says "MADE IN USA" on the back of the headstock. You legitimately have no idea what you're saying and are desperately trying to rationalize away cognitive dissonance.



Clearly you've never been to a GC store, checked craigslist, or anything similar. In fact someone on here bought a USA Jackson from GC at import prices... that's just an example. Not everyone is such an expert like you.

Sorry bro, you missed out


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## feraledge (May 10, 2017)

Jeffbro said:


> You should call me a saint since I get those guitars to people that are actually looking for them but wouldn't have found it otherwise



Zero shock, you missed the communal element here. Most of us have constant circles of communication with other people in this nerd community to keep an eye out for things we might like. I'd say we all have spent our time combing GC for epic deals and then just point them out to friends who are looking for that. 
It doesn't make you a saint, it makes you a profiteer. The rest of us would just rather look out for each other. But I might be looking for a hobby too if I spent most of my time here being banned.


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## marcwormjim (May 11, 2017)

I wasn't expecting the end of that sentence; and spit out my drink. The pesky little details of what I was actually drinking don't matter - A certain scamp's just going to write it off as Hatorade.


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## Edika (May 11, 2017)

One of the reasons I buy used is that I get GAS, as everybody else here, I don't have stores that would have on stock what I'd want to try in order to buy new and receive quite a hit financialy. If I could afford to do so and playing guitar wasn't more of a hobby then I might consider it.

What draws me to buying used gear, aside from getting a guitar I've wanted in a more affordable price, is that I can resell it for minimal loss, break even or make a bit of profit that would cover losses from other sales. 

In general though I'm just happy with breaking even. Why; Because I don't see musical instruments as an investment. They're magical things that let me express myself and make me feel better when I'm done playing. If the magic isn't there then it's passed on to another individual that might find that magic in that instrument.

If my financial situation that would that I wouldn't care for a price of an instrument, then I wouldn't mind selling them for a loss but I guess that might one of the main reasons I'm not rich lol!

Anyway even though I don't agree with the gear flipping mentality mentioned here, if the persons core values don't let them realise what's ethically right from wrong, regardless if it's legal or not, is a person I don't want to associate myself in the slightest.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 11, 2017)

khoury is trying to sell an OS8 for 2k now. Also the pics are all super dark/edited which I'm super suspicious of since he claims this guitar is "mint"
https://reverb.com/item/5128353-strandberg-boden-os8-8-string-headless-2016-trans-black


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## TheTrooper (May 11, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> khoury is trying to sell an OS8 for 2k now. Also the pics are all super dark/edited which I'm super suspicious of since he claims this guitar is "mint"
> https://reverb.com/item/5128353-strandberg-boden-os8-8-string-headless-2016-trans-black




I'm not following here 
If they go for 1995$ new, why is he selling it for the same price used?

Why would somebody pay more for a used one?


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## KnightBrolaire (May 11, 2017)

TheTrooper said:


> I'm not following here
> If they go for 1995$ new, why is he selling it for the same price used?
> 
> Why would somebody pay more for a used one?



If people want it they'll buy it. Strandbergs hold their value pretty well, I've seen plenty go for 1800$ used and a few at 1900. I'd doubt he'll get the $. I'm more bothered by the lighting in his photos, they're obscuring most of the detail with darkness, which is suspect in my book.


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## TheTrooper (May 11, 2017)

Just came across the fact that he believes 9/11 was an inside job.

We're done here.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 11, 2017)

TheTrooper said:


> Just came across the fact that he believes 9/11 was an inside job.
> 
> We're done here.



it clearly was, the reptile men from the dark side of the moon told me so


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## Drew (May 11, 2017)

TheTrooper said:


> I'm not following here
> If they go for 1995$ new, why is he selling it for the same price used?
> 
> Why would somebody pay more for a used one?



Presumably because Strandberg's non-Boden guitars go for a lot more than that, customers may not realize that the Bodens are cheapper, and may not realize that they can order one new for $5 less. Or, they might, but they might decide that $5 more than new for a "mint" (and I share your concern - the only pic that ISN'T super dark is the case and paperwork) one that's ready to ship. Shady either way. 

The fact Jeffbro just got himself banned, again, doesn't speak well for his credibility.


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## Drew (May 11, 2017)

Edika said:


> In general though I'm just happy with breaking even. Why; Because I don't see musical instruments as an investment. They're magical things that let me express myself and make me feel better when I'm done playing. If the magic isn't there then it's passed on to another individual that might find that magic in that instrument.



Exactly how I feel.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 11, 2017)

Man wish stores in canada mislabled esps and usa jacksons for 300 bucks. I wouldnt flip em just would have eay more guitars lol


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## feraledge (May 11, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> khoury is trying to sell an OS8 for 2k now. Also the pics are all super dark/edited which I'm super suspicious of since he claims this guitar is "mint"
> https://reverb.com/item/5128353-strandberg-boden-os8-8-string-headless-2016-trans-black



More pics in the original listing, you'd think he'd at least have a proxy account for buying. This is too easy.
https://reverb.com/item/4976703-strandberg-boden-os-8-black-satin


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## diagrammatiks (May 11, 2017)

This site is very lenient with its two week bans at least. 

I remember seeing that strandberg posting and thinking I'd pay 1800 for one. Didn't realize he bought it for1600. That being said...I'd still pay 1800 for one but probably not that one.


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## Vletrmx (May 11, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> khoury is trying to sell an OS8 for 2k now. Also the pics are all super dark/edited which I'm super suspicious of since he claims this guitar is "mint"
> https://reverb.com/item/5128353-strandberg-boden-os8-8-string-headless-2016-trans-black



Wow, I didn't connect the two together but I recall seeing some higher end Dingwalls and a 4-string NG-2 with ridiculous asking prices in the local Denver Craigslist with pictures that looked very similar. In the case of the NG-2 he had marked it up to (or over, I don't remember too well) the brand new price and cited unavailability of them as a reason.

EDIT: Also found this just now : https://denver.craigslist.org/msg/6066657867.html


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 11, 2017)

feraledge said:


> More pics in the original listing, you'd think he'd at least have a proxy account for buying. This is too easy.


We know by now that Khoury isn't the brightest bulb in the box. 

His pics in the OS8 listing prove that there aren't many bright bulbs around him in general. 



Vletrmx said:


> Wow, I didn't connect the two together but I recall seeing some higher end Dingwalls and a 4-string NG-2 with ridiculous asking prices in the local Denver Craigslist with pictures that looked very similar. In the case of the NG-2 he had marked it up to (or over, I don't remember too well) the brand new price and cited unavailability of them as a reason.
> 
> EDIT: Also found this just now : https://denver.craigslist.org/msg/6066657867.html


So much fake bullsh*t.

Funny thing is that Khoury can't help but to post pics of his gear on social media. There isn't a trace of this guitar anywhere on his social media accounts.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 11, 2017)

Lol i see that thing on Reverb constantly. Ill could get a custom one to me in Canada brand new for less than he is asking


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## KnightBrolaire (May 11, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> We know by now that Khoury isn't the brightest bulb in the box.
> 
> His pics in the OS8 listing prove that there aren't many bright bulbs around him in general.
> 
> ...



yeah the craigslist one should be easy to verify since jan is a member here.


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## Vletrmx (May 12, 2017)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Funny thing is that Khoury can't help but to post pics of his gear on social media. There isn't a trace of this guitar anywhere on his social media accounts.



It's likely that it's not him, but I found it hilarious regardless and thought it belonged in this thread.


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 12, 2017)

Vletrmx said:


> It's likely that it's not him, but I found it hilarious regardless and thought it belonged in this thread.


Oh, no. It's Khoury. The location in Denver and the mention of "Horizontime" (who never existed) are two dead giveaways that it's him. He probably doesn't even have the guitar in his possession since the pics in the Craigslist ad are all from other sources.


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## John_Strychnine (May 12, 2017)

Becareful here guys, this is verging on slander. You're basically trying to ruin someone's life here, with a trail of evidence. 

I don't really get the issue that you have with Zack, I've met him numerous times, he's a good guy. 

So what if he sells guitars for more than he paid for it? I bought a PRS SE custom semi hollow body for £50 with a free 6 way stand and I wouldn't sell it for £50 because if I don't then the person after me would....making me a mug.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 12, 2017)

John_Strychnine said:


> Becareful here guys, this is verging on slander. You're basically trying to ruin someone's life here, with a trail of evidence.
> 
> I don't really get the issue that you have with Zack, I've met him numerous times, he's a good guy.
> 
> So what if he sells guitars for more than he paid for it? I bought a PRS SE custom semi hollow body for £50 with a free 6 way stand and I wouldn't sell it for £50 because if I don't then the person after me would....making me a mug.



except it's not slander, there's blatant proof of him doing this. Maybe if you actually read the whole thread you'll see that most people don't have a problem with flipping gear, it's the way he does it that causes animosity. He makes false claims and uses disingenuous photography to hide flaws/damage to instruments.


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## TheTrooper (May 12, 2017)

John_Strychnine said:


> Becareful here guys, this is verging on slander. You're basically trying to ruin someone's life here, with a trail of evidence.
> 
> I don't really get the issue that you have with Zack, I've met him numerous times, he's a good guy.
> 
> So what if he sells guitars for more than he paid for it? I bought a PRS SE custom semi hollow body for £50 with a free 6 way stand and I wouldn't sell it for £50 because if I don't then the person after me would....making me a mug.



Flipping gear and making a profit is not the problem.
Flipping gear (that's falsely advertised) and making a profit is.

As I said many pages ago, I've only talked to him very few times and he always seemed a like a cool guy.

Pretty sure the thread started with a broader focus, it just got deviated along the path.


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## Andromalia (May 15, 2017)

John_Strychnine said:


> Becareful here guys, this is verging on slander. You're basically trying to ruin someone's life here, with a trail of evidence.



The evidence is attested, and if I want something, it's that he doesn't find any new victim. I don't give a nickel about his life, but I remember when I asked him the price for a guitar he was selling, and his sales speech which was pure BS. I found him cool until the point where money was involved, he then turned into a complete [add whatever here]. I'm knowledgeable enough to have seen the bs but not everyone might be.
The flippers are just useless intermediaries that serve no purpose to anyone but themselves.
I'm fine with someone trying to get the best bargain for a guitar he doesn't want any longer. I'm not fine with planned flipping, same as I dislike the concert hoarders who make it difficult to get a ticket at retail prices without being ready to go in 30 seconds at the exact hour they come online. Last ACDC show in Paris was sold out in 38 seconds. When the day came, the place wasn't full... Same people, same behaviour.


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## Emperor Guillotine (May 15, 2017)

John_Strychnine said:


> Becareful here guys, this is verging on slander. You're basically trying to ruin someone's life here, with a trail of evidence.


Slander? No, definitely not, Browne. You might want to go read the thread about Michael Keene that is floating around in this section of the forum. I just read like 30 posts in a row where people are accusing Keene of being a drug addict with no evidence. 

As far as Khoury is concerned, the evidence is there as other members have pointed out. There is evidence on his Reverb account (since anyone can see his buying and selling history), on his social media accounts, and here on Sevenstring.org; not to mention there also is evidence on the numerous upon numerous forums that he has been permanently banned from for gear-flipping, blatantly dishonest sales tactics (such as lying about the condition of gear), and for general dick-ish behavior. Remember, there are reasons why he is banned everywhere and why so many people recognize his name. The guy isn't the brightest bulb in the box, and he has left a long trail of observable evidence and carnage behind him. He has earned his reputation, and the only people who seem to say that he is a "good guy" are either his partners in crime (like Mehtab) or those who have never truly interacted with his dishonest, constantly bullsh*tting, sociopathic side.


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## extendedsolo (May 15, 2017)

John_Strychnine said:


> Becareful here guys, this is verging on slander. You're basically trying to ruin someone's life here, with a trail of evidence.
> 
> I don't really get the issue that you have with Zack, I've met him numerous times, he's a good guy.
> 
> So what if he sells guitars for more than he paid for it? I bought a PRS SE custom semi hollow body for £50 with a free 6 way stand and I wouldn't sell it for £50 because if I don't then the person after me would....making me a mug.



Just because someone is nice to you in person doesn't mean they are a nice guy. There is plenty of evidence that this dude is a slimeball with him misrepresenting his products.


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