# Dean's Razorback Rebel - No more?



## bnzboy (Aug 17, 2017)

I went to Dean's website to check Dimebag models and found out the link to the Rebel model is down. With the most recent news and all do you think this was done on purpose? Maybe they will take it down from the website?

http://www.deanguitars.com/subcategory?series=dimebag_series_razr


----------



## electriceye (Aug 17, 2017)

Probably safe to assume it's no more.


----------



## Rawkmann (Aug 17, 2017)

It was an ugly guitar anyway.


----------



## Haun (Aug 17, 2017)

Not worth the fight.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 17, 2017)

They probably ixnay'd that one because "racist."


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 17, 2017)

Ain't it weird. Not offensive for so many years, and then boom, offensive. 

What will they think of next.


----------



## xzacx (Aug 17, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> Ain't it weird. Not offensive for so many years, and then boom, offensive.
> 
> What will they think of next.



Wrong. Always been shameful.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 17, 2017)

Yeah who would've thought guitar companies could be so racist. Things like this and that new white supremacist fender make me sick...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 17, 2017)

Rawkmann said:


> It was an ugly guitar anyway.





xzacx said:


> Wrong. Always been shameful.



Yup.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Aug 17, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Yeah who would've thought guitar companies could be so racist. Things like this and that new white supremacist fender make me sick...



The Dean is completely using the confederate moniker. Fender collaborated with a CLOTHING brand, has nothing to do with white supremacy, just completely poor timing on the release of that guitar making it a point of conversation.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 17, 2017)

Really? A pure all over white guitar with the word supreme on it? Those racist bastards aren't fooling anyone...


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 17, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Really? A pure all over white guitar with the word supreme on it? Those racist bastards aren't fooling anyone...




Love feigned outrage.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 17, 2017)

Let us not forget about ESP and their guitars with highly questionable aesthetics they refuse to build for anyone apart from a certain deceased thrash metal guitarist... Well except for maybe another certain classic metal era guitarist that also has these type of decorations that nobody seems to notice as much...

Is it shame on the artist for asking for it and playing it in public or shame on the company for building it?


----------



## beerandbeards (Aug 17, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Let us not forget about ESP and their guitars with highly questionable aesthetics they refuse to build for anyone apart from a certain deceased thrash metal guitarist... Well except for maybe another certain classic metal era guitarist that also has these type of decorations that nobody seems to notice as much...
> 
> Is it shame on the artist for asking for it and playing it in public or shame on the company for building it?



Hanneman


----------



## gunch (Aug 17, 2017)

Wasn't Hanneman's excuse that he was a wehraboo/germanophile and not really a Nazi sympathizer (which I think is a pretty weak argument but still)


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 17, 2017)

silverabyss said:


> wehraboo


This is still one of my favorite words on the internet.


----------



## Glades (Aug 17, 2017)

You really cannot understand the weight and significance of the Confederate Flag unless you are Southern. It's a flag that represents an identity. Dime wasn't a racist, nor he wanted slavery. He was a southern man, with a strong southern identity. I hope this witch hunt stops soon and we can get back to normal.


----------



## marcwormjim (Aug 18, 2017)

If this guitar goes away, then Dimebag truly _has _died!


----------



## Rawkmann (Aug 18, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> If this guitar goes away, then Dimebag truly _has _died!



All his other sig guitars don't count for anything? Pretty sure Dean is going to keep milking the Dimebag name for years to come.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

Glades said:


> You really cannot understand the weight and significance of the Confederate Flag unless you are Southern. It's a flag that represents an identity. Dime wasn't a racist, nor he wanted slavery. He was a southern man, with a strong southern identity. I hope this witch hunt stops soon and we can get back to normal.


One can hope... but it won't.


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 18, 2017)

Have you seen Dean Guitars' CEO? 




Wow I bet they're regretting that decision right now haha. I bet they wish they hired a minority, preferably with a disability.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> Have you seen Dean Guitars' CEO?
> 
> View attachment 55640
> 
> ...


A game leg or cleft palate preferably. What about their CEO, though?


----------



## feraledge (Aug 18, 2017)

Glades said:


> It's a flag that represents an identity. Dime wasn't a racist, nor he wanted slavery. He was a southern man, with a strong southern identity. I hope this witch hunt stops soon and we can get back to normal.


It's almost as if you're being taken out of your context and placed, forcibly, into another. And when you're just trying to enjoy your culture you're being beaten into submission and held against your will. Like you're seeing your family torn away from you and stuck up for auction. 
I spent a couple years in Athens, GA and the legacy of slavery is very much alive. The offspring of the tree outside the old court house has the legacy of being the "tree that owns itself." It's predecessor was used for hanging so much that it was given more rights than those who were hung from it. 
Besides that, it's not like Dime ever shared the stage with someone who is notorious for drunken "white power" rants and things like that. Oh wait...


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 18, 2017)

I'm still baffled by the idea that the confederate states consider their flag to be somehow "American".

Motherfuckers, you literally went to war with America. You *lost* that war and that's why you're not the Confederacy anymore.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 18, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> I'm still baffled by the idea that the confederate states consider their flag to be somehow "American".
> 
> Motherfuckers, you literally went to war with America. You *lost* that war and that's why you're not the Confederacy anymore.



CSA actually stands for Confederate States of America. Kinda is American just a little...

I personally don't see the big deal one way or the other. I grew up in the south and it always seemed to me like a consolation prize or something. Like they agreed to surrender as long as they didn't have to be educated and they could put their flag all over everything everywhere in the south. I went to an all white high school in the middle of the woods and I can say even though a lot of these people can say some pretty racist stuff the majority are just idiots that really don't mean any harm. The ones that are trouble are usually waving a swastika next to their confederate flag. Of course these days everyone seems to be looking very hard for things to be offended by. I was personally finding it kind of racist that none of these anti-abortion billboards over here have black, brown or even Asian babies. I drive all over the US and all I see is white babies on these billboards. What are they trying to say? Save the white babies and who cares about the rest??


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> CSA actually stands for Confederate States of America. Kinda is American just a little...
> 
> I personally don't see the big deal one way or the other. I grew up in the south and it always seemed to me like a consolation prize or something. Like they agreed to surrender as long as they didn't have to be educated and they could put their flag all over everything everywhere in the south. I went to an all white high school in the middle of the woods and I can say even though a lot of these people can say some pretty racist stuff the majority are just idiots that really don't mean any harm. The ones that are trouble are usually waving a swastika next to their confederate flag. Of course these days everyone seems to be looking very hard for things to be offended by. I was personally finding it kind of racist that none of these anti-abortion billboards over here have black, brown or even Asian babies. I drive all over the US and all I see is white babies on these billboards. What are they trying to say? Save the white babies and who cares about the rest??


Only as American as South America, or this town in the Netherlands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America,_Limburg

The point is, the current legitimate government of the USA is the one that flag stood against. The confederate states split from and *went to war with* the entity that is now the USA you live in.

There is no way for that break from the USA to be any clearer or more defined. When that happened, the people responsible, purely and simply, gave up the right to call themselves citizens of the United States of America.

You are very fortunate that the politics since then have allowed for most of those people to return to being citizens of the USA, and for their children to be considered such.

The fact that people who identify with the confederate states now feel aggrieved by the fact their generals are being remembered as nasty people, is bizarre to me, because it signifies to me that they simply have no idea what the fuck seceding from the US actually *meant*.

Confederate flags stand for something directly opposed to the USA that won that war and that exists today.


----------



## marcwormjim (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Like they agreed to surrender as long as they didn't have to be educated



*snort*


----------



## bnzboy (Aug 18, 2017)

lol maybe I have opened up a can of worms.. I never understood George Lynch's Kamikaze model painting as I found it offensive but that is another story.


----------



## xzacx (Aug 18, 2017)

bnzboy said:


> lol maybe I have opened up a can of worms.. I never understood George Lynch's Kamikaze model painting as I found it offensive but that is another story.



IMO that's bad too. ESP's track record with questionable stuff like that is why I've never owned one (I don't think negatively of those who do, but it's my choice not to support them). Look, I'm sure if you look far enough into most companies you can find unsavory elements. But when you put out blatant Nazi imagery on like on Hanneman's models, it's hard to ignore. 

Whether or not Hanneman or Dime or anyone is actually racist is kind of beside the point to me. If you're comfortable portraying yourself in a way where there's perception that you might be, then I think that speaks volumes. 

And it's not about being "offended" by this symbolism. I'm not offended by anything. It's about what using the symbols of oppression and hate say about those that use them. It's certainly not something I want to be associated with.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 18, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Only as American as South America, or this town in the Netherlands: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America,_Limburg
> 
> The point is, the current legitimate government of the USA is the one that flag stood against. The confederate states split from and *went to war with* the entity that is now the USA you live in.
> 
> ...



I'm wondering if you know what secession actually means... You should count yourself lucky the European Union didn't declare war on your country when you voted to secede... 
The USA is a union of states it says so right in the name. Some of those states wanted out of the Union. The other states said no and they all fought a nice long war over it. 

How many people have been oppressed and enslaved under the Union Jack? How many people have been oppressed and enslaved under the US flag? The US and British flags represented slavery long before and far longer than the CSA flag ever did. My point is who really gives a rat's ass it's just a flag like any other. 

You won't stop Dimebag from playing guitars covered in confederate flags until you climb up on stage and shoot him in the face. Just like Jeff Hanneman will be showing off his Nazi SS guitars until the day he dies. 

What I seriously do not understand is why all these poor ass white trailer trash hillbillies are the ones clinging so hard onto the confederacy. 99% of our ancestors were poor ass white cabin trash hillbillies back in those days and secession made absolutely no difference one way or the other. The wealthy elite in the south didn't want to give up all of that free labor. I would think they would be the ones that didn't want to let go.


----------



## xzacx (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Just like Jeff Hanneman will be showing off his Nazi SS guitars until the day he dies.



Bad news, he stopped showing them off about four years ago.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

xzacx said:


> Bad news, he stopped showing them off about four years ago.


----------



## couverdure (Aug 18, 2017)

xzacx said:


> IMO that's bad too. ESP's track record with questionable stuff like that is why I've never owned one (I don't think negatively of those who do, but it's my choice not to support them). Look, I'm sure if you look far enough into most companies you can find unsavory elements. But when you put out blatant Nazi imagery on like on Hanneman's models, it's hard to ignore.


You really think you wouldn't want to buy a guitar from a certain company just because of someone's signature guitar? I think it's better for you to just not buy whatever gives that someone their money because they do not represent the entire company.

Also ESP is a Japanese company, and I've heard more questionable things coming from other companies there.


----------



## Rosal76 (Aug 18, 2017)

Glades said:


> Dime wasn't a racist, nor he wanted slavery.



Also the fact that's he a huge Dallas Cowboys fan.


----------



## Glades (Aug 18, 2017)

On CNN they are talking about bringing down all monuments associated with the founding fathers, george washington, mount rushmore. Also renaming the state of Washington and DC, because Washington was a slave owner. Also the US Flag is offensive to many, saying it is the flag under which slavery was first institutionalized. 

It starts with the CSA, Davis, Lee and Stonewall ... It ends with the USA, Washington, Jefferson and the US Constitution.


----------



## Kodee_Kaos (Aug 18, 2017)

Is this offensive?


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 18, 2017)

Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. I know, of course, that the past is falsified, but it would never be possible for me to prove it, even when I did the falsification myself. After the thing is done, no evidence ever remains. The only evidence is inside my own mind, and I don’t know with any certainty that any other human being shares my memories. Just in that one instance, in my whole life, I did possess actual concrete evidence after the event—years after it.’ -George Orwell, 1984


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

Glades said:


> On CNN they are talking about bringing down all monuments associated with the founding fathers, george washington, mount rushmore. Also renaming the state of Washington and DC, because Washington was a slave owner. Also the US Flag is offensive to many, saying it is the flag under which slavery was first institutionalized.
> 
> It starts with the CSA, Davis, Lee and Stonewall ... It ends with the USA, Washington, Jefferson and the US Constitution.


They need to give all that noise a rest already.



Kodee_Kaos said:


> Is this offensive?


I like it. Why? Because it is super ridiculous on an "it goes to 11" scale, and I'm sure it offends just about everyone. Then again, who isn't offended these days. 



mnemonic said:


> Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street and building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And that process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right. I know, of course, that the past is falsified, but it would never be possible for me to prove it, even when I did the falsification myself. After the thing is done, no evidence ever remains. The only evidence is inside my own mind, and I don’t know with any certainty that any other human being shares my memories. Just in that one instance, in my whole life, I did possess actual concrete evidence after the event—years after it.’ -George Orwell, 1984


Great quote. 1984 was a great book. Memnon, Brave New World or 1984? Which do you like more?


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 18, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Great quote. 1984 was a great book. Memnon, Brave New World or 1984? Which do you like more?



Both good, I may have to go with 1984. It's been so long since I read either but I vaguely remember 1984 being better written and a more interesting read.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> Both good, I may have to go with 1984. It's been so long since I read either but I vaguely remember 1984 being better written and a more interesting read.


SOMA...


----------



## Rawkmann (Aug 18, 2017)

As someone who grew up in the Deep South, I can't help but associate the rebel flag with closed minded redneck types. Maybe it's just where I grew up but the people who were the most prideful of that flag were also the people I'd want to associate with the least. It's definitely got a negative stigma attached to it in my eyes. Now of course people will argue that's not really what the rebel flag is supposed to represent, all I know is most of the people I've met personally who display it have been scumbags.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 18, 2017)

The problem is there are scumbags on all sides trying their best to hype this stuff up. Most reasonable people don't give a shit about race or politics and just want to live their lives. Then there are scumbags who don't feel alive unless they're at the center of some kind of bullshit drama. I personally really can't stand most people. Assholes come in all shapes, sizes, colors, religions, orientations (or lack of), genders (or transgender or genderless), political parties, nationalities, social status, marital status, ages, musical preferences or any other ways they can be divided up and labeled. I agree with the sensible things the right has to say and the sensible things the left has to say. The thing that pisses me off is they both go diving off into the deep ends of extreme ridiculousness where no reasonable person would follow. Where is the political party representing the regular people that don't give a shit and want to get on with life?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> The problem is there are scumbags on all sides trying their best to hype this stuff up. Most reasonable people don't give a shit about race or politics and just want to live their lives. Then there are scumbags who don't feel alive unless they're at the center of some kind of bullshit drama. I personally really can't stand most people. Assholes come in all shapes, sizes, colors, religions, orientations (or lack of), genders (or transgender or genderless), political parties, nationalities, social status, marital status, ages, musical preferences or any other ways they can be divided up and labeled. I agree with the sensible things the right has to say and the sensible things the left has to say. The thing that pisses me off is they both go diving off into the deep ends of extreme ridiculousness where no reasonable person would follow. Where is the political party representing the regular people that don't give a shit and want to get on with life?


Well, people had a chance to have Ron Paul and voted for something else.


----------



## xzacx (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Most reasonable people don't give a shit about race or politics and just want to live their lives.



Do you realize that there are many minorities (whether it's race, sexuality, religion) who just want to live their lives, but have to deal with unreasonable people who do give a shit about race and politics every single day? It's easy to sit back and criticize when you're not the one dealing with it. That doesn't mean it's not a fact of every day life for some people though.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 18, 2017)

Rawkmann said:


> As someone who grew up in the Deep South, I can't help but associate the rebel flag with closed minded redneck types. Maybe it's just where I grew up but the people who were the most prideful of that flag were also the people I'd want to associate with the least.


I had the same experience. For a long time I saw the confederate flag through the same filter because I truly disliked the closed minded redneck douchebags that displayed it in every possible manner at my high school. After college and a lot of documentaries and books and the military and Iraq and 20 years of life experience, I think most of those idiots have no idea what the confederacy stood for. It wasn't all about slavery and oppression. It was a bunch of rich ass business guys that didn't get their way so they wanted to break off and start their own country.


----------



## Rawkmann (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> I had the same experience. For a long time I saw the confederate flag through the same filter because I truly disliked the closed minded redneck douchebags that displayed it in every possible manner at my high school. After college and a lot of documentaries and books and the military and Iraq and 20 years of life experience, I think most of those idiots have no idea what the confederacy stood for. It wasn't all about slavery and oppression. It was a bunch of rich ass business guys that didn't get their way so they wanted to break off and start their own country.



I totally get that, but to me any positive message behind confederate flag has been sullied by the people who use it in a negative way. Much the same way that Nazis co opted the Swastika, racists and rednecks have unfortunately done the same with the confederate flag.


----------



## feraledge (Aug 18, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> It was a bunch of rich ass business guys that didn't get their way so they wanted to break off and start their own country.


Exactly! It wasn't about slavery, it was just about a bunch of rich guys doing THEIR thing and protecting THEIR possessions. Ya know... slaves.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 18, 2017)

I didn't say it had nothing to do with slavery. Slavery had been a divisive political issue in the US since the 1750s. The founding fathers thought independence was enough to deal with and left it for later generations to fight over. I said it wasn't ALL about slavery. Everyone knew the southern plantations couldn't survive without slave labor and still be as profitable. So Lincoln freed the slaves in the south hoping to start a slave rebellion or a migration of slaves to the north (where the northern slaves were still not free for a time by the way) and hit the southern leaders in the wallet. 

People always want to say the evil south was racist against the blacks and the northern knights in shining blue armor rescued them in a noble crusade against southern oppression. Nobody wants to read about how racist people were against blacks in the north. Lincoln had to declare martial law because of racist riots and lynchings in (I want to say Boston or Baltimore?) The point is the government still didn't really want to truly and thoroughly deal with freeing the slaves (just read up about the half assed post war policies that still did almost nothing for rights of former slaves much less actual enforcement of policies meant to help them) Lincoln simply used it as a tactic to help win the war. 

It still boggles my mind what exactly made the average dirt poor toothless redneck Joe vote for secession. I mean the Germans I can understand because Hitler promised them the world. The Soviets were fighting for everyone to have what they need to live no more no less. What exactly was Johnny Reb fighting for? To make a bunch of rich assholes even richer? Secession wasn't going to benefit the lower class in any way.


----------



## Andromalia (Aug 18, 2017)

I think the main issue with all these is that some people realised they could earn money by being offended, hence the stupid increase in offended people these last 5 years. Without judging whoever is right or wrong, this has become a business.
And for that matter, my opinion is that the flag should stay, because we can identify racists easily that way.



> It still boggles my mind what exactly made the average dirt poor toothless redneck Joe vote for secession.


Well, if you go that way, mindboggling american votes didn't stop at that time... And, to be honest, it's nothing special to the USA either. Minimum wage workers voting right wing always baffled me.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 18, 2017)

Andromalia said:


> I think the main issue with all these is that some people realised they could earn money by being offended, hence the stupid increase in offended people these last 5 years. Without judging whoever is right or wrong, this has become a business.
> And for that matter, my opinion is that the flag should stay, because we can identify racists easily that way.


I feel it should stay, as well as the statues, because then you can use them as a means to educate about the entire conflict, and not just about one aspect of it like is typically done.


----------



## A-Branger (Aug 18, 2017)

Im not from there and the only "knoledge" I have about the whole civil war thing is what hollywood movies/tv series/cartoons/and what not shows, so I have a small idea about it.

for me I always saw that flag as a "redneck/south pride" kinda thing. Specialyl when used in these kinds of context, like him on his guitar, or or the roof of the Dukes of Hazzard car. I was like "meh, hes just trying to show his pride where is from and/or embrace the Ima redneck".... more about the ideology/slavery/whatever, its more of a "this was our land, this was our flag, we wanted independence and you guys won" kinda of a deal in my eyes... so its like a way to say from where are they from(like using any flag from any state) rather than "OMFG hes such a racist I bet he has 12 slaves in his house picking corn...."

At the end of the day, as any guitar/object, with a flag, I have no interest whatsoever, and to be honest I have no idea who even bought this guitar out of a "colectors" approach. Even if you happen to be part of the country from where a flag is being used (like I live in Australia and I buy a guitar with an Australian flag) I think its the most tacky cheesy thing ever.

In other words I didnt give a F about that guitar, and I really dont care they took it out of the line, and I still think they shouldn't keep milking his name for "sig guitars". Leave the dude rest in peace and improve your brand so you can get new artist and not live out of the legacy of one guy


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 19, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> The Soviets were fighting for everyone to have what they need to live no more no less.


----------



## Alex79 (Aug 19, 2017)

Symbolism isn't defined only by history or facts, but by the way the majority of people see it in the now.

Hindu religion had swastikas as well, but the swastika has been now taken over as a symbol of nationalsocialism - because that is the connotation that most people see it as.

The meaning of symbols changes over time. What the confederate flag once meant doesn't matter as much as what it means now and what it is associated with by the majority of people.

Take for example the Guy Fawkes mask from the movie Vendetta. Lots of history and fiction behind the mask there, but it is now largely associated with Occupy Wall Street and anti globalisation protesters.


----------



## Dredg (Aug 22, 2017)

There's a reason why the flag we all call the "Confederate Flag" is the Army of Northern Virginia battle flag in a rectangular orientation.

Because the actual flag that the AoNV sourced their design from was the corner of the 2nd flag of the CSA, redesigned from the first official flag be cause of its similarity with the USA flag. The new flag was mostly white with the familiar "confederate flag" design we all know in the upper left corner. The flag was known as "The White Man's Flag" and was championed as such: "As a people we are fighting to maintain the Heaven-ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause." which proudly echoed the supremacist logic found in the Letters of Secession.

The current confederate flag is only a symbol of southern culture because it was aggressively normalized by the Sons + Daughters of the Confederacy. Fast forward through the generations and its not hard to see why the modern southerner is outraged over what s/he perceives to be a fresh demonization of a forced symbolic heritage.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 23, 2017)

Absolutely. 

There's a great extended answer over here on reddit too - 
Why were Confederate monuments raised in Union and border states?

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistori...y_were_confederate_monuments_raised_in_union/


----------



## dr_game0ver (Aug 23, 2017)

A brand stopped making a complicated and questionable finish on one of their guitar. Why do you guys need to makes this so complicated?


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 23, 2017)

dr_game0ver said:


> A brand stopped making a complicated and questionable finish on one of their guitar. Why do you guys need to makes this so complicated?


Because the rationale was clearly a desire not to be seen as associating with or supporting Charlottesville Neo-Nazis who'd been wandering around with the same design on flags, alongside swastikas, violence, and an actual murder?


----------



## spork141 (Aug 23, 2017)

I think this convo is being handled pretty well here. Most people making calm and intelligent convo "on both sides" 

This would have turned into a sh*tshow on any other social media outlet.

Anyway, the one thing I wanted to add here is that there is a huge percentage of the American population that does not see the flag so openly and it is not getting represented in many of the opinions here. I am going to go out on a limb and say that I don't think many of us here are African American, and while I am white myself, I think it's safe to assume that most black people overwhelmingly feel uncomfortable around people and establishments that wave that flag. 

I know a lot of southerners feel that the flag represents their culture and isn't intended to suggest racism or bigotry, but I dont think that your ever going to talk an African american out of feeling tension around it. So yeah, for the sake of all Americans, it's time to pick a better symbol for the south.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 23, 2017)

spork141 said:


> I think this convo is being handled pretty well here. Most people making calm and intelligent convo "on both sides"
> 
> This would have turned into a sh*tshow on any other social media outlet.
> 
> ...


The bigger point around what you just said is this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_Cause_of_the_Confederacy

As stated in my previous post, a MAJORITY of the pro-confederate monuments and statues in the US were made long after the war was over and settled. The Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy were literally trying to re-write history to further the idea of the Lost Cause. 

It's thanks to them that the Confederate Battle flag is viewed in any kind of positive light whatsoever. Pure and simple an attempt to rewrite history.

Being proud of it is simply betraying that you've never looked into this with any degree of critical mindedness.


----------



## marcwormjim (Aug 23, 2017)

I know many people who still claim they would die for that flag, or of old age.


----------



## Sogradde (Aug 23, 2017)

bnzboy said:


> as I found it offensive but that is another story.


Point is, you're not legally entitled to not be offended. If you don't like it, don't buy it.
Current left practices authoritarian faschism under the guise of "tolerance" by demonizing and silencing everyone who opposes their ideas.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 23, 2017)

A little bit off topic but I don't think getting rid of the confederate flag and confederate statues is going to magically change anything. If anything it'll make people double down on what they believe/support since parts of their history/culture are being attacked. While I personally find the confederate flag distasteful (more because of the fact that people are essentially celebrating their past military failures) others still rally around it. As someone with an appreciation for military history I think destroying Robert E. Lee statues or Stonewall Jackson statues is highly disrespectful to men who were and are still touted as excellent tacticians. Hell, Lee was actually part of the Union army before deciding to quit and join the confederacy to protect virginia/his lands and family. He freed all of his father in law's slaves early on in the war (like 1862 or something) too so it's not like he was some big slave owner. Hell there are still multiple military bases in the south named after southern commanders (Ft. Bragg, Lee, Jackson, Ft. Rucker, Ft. Polk) and there's placards with Lee and Jackson's names at West Point (both attended west point and Lee was superintendent for a while). At the rate we're going the lambda sign is going to be a racist symbol too, since some skinheads decided to co-opt it as their symbol. Oh yeah don't forget how drinking milk somehow make you a white supremacist as well.


----------



## bnzboy (Aug 23, 2017)

Sogradde said:


> Point is, you're not legally entitled to not be offended. If you don't like it, don't buy it.



lol I would never buy that guitar. I love George Lynch and ESP though.


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

Robert E Lee himself opposed confederate monuments.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/

Hitler and his Nazi advisers were also pretty good military tacticians, so I suppose you'd find it disrespectful to tear down monuments of them as well?

I also fail to understand how defecting from the US military is a point of merit.

If you fought to defend white supremacy and slavery, then you don't deserve a statue. Even if you were the best grandpa, told the funniest jokes, and were an otherwise swell fellow.

Hitler was a good painter. Arguably a supremely talented orator. Doesn't make it appropriate to hang his paintings or display his quotes in public areas.


Life isn't black and white, sure. But sometimes there's good sides and bad sides. If you're a good guy who joins the bad side, I guess that was your mistake.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

Regardless of what side of the debate you're on, I think comparing Robert E. Lee to Hitler is a bit of a stretch.


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

Besides that I did not compare them on the basis of their lives or actions but rather the degree to which public displays might potentially offend people, people who self identify as neo-Nazis are up in arms about the removal of Robert E Lee statues

edit: oh wait, I did compare them as military leaders, but that was in response to someone else's comment


----------



## Sogradde (Aug 23, 2017)

vilk said:


> If you fought to defend white supremacy and slavery, then you don't deserve a statue.


Do you really think that's what it was all about? One side said they were better than blacks, the other said they were not better than blacks and that's why hordes of people killed each other?
Honestly man, I'm not even from the US and I understand that conflict better than you do.


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

Sogradde said:


> Do you really think that's what it was all about? One side said they were better than blacks, the other said they were not better than blacks and that's why hordes of people killed each other?
> Honestly man, I'm not even from the US and I understand that conflict better than you do.


Cornerstone Address of the Confederacy:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the *white man*; that slavery, subordination to the *superior race*, is his natural and normal condition. This, *our new government*, is the first, in the history of the world, *based upon* this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science."

-Confederate Vice President Alexander Stephens

Delivered extemporaneously a few weeks before the Confederacy would start the American Civil War by firing on the US Army at Fort Sumter


----------



## Sogradde (Aug 23, 2017)

Thank you for proving my point, I guess?


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

Thank Alexander Stephens, who apparently understood the conflict even less than you do lol


----------



## Sogradde (Aug 23, 2017)

I think he understood pretty well, that the south didn't like having the north impose their laws upon them. 
They didn't go like "hurr durr, black people are dumb, we should totally kill the people in the northern states for disagreeing!" 
That's more of a modern leftist thing to say.


----------



## spork141 (Aug 23, 2017)

I think that there is a number of aspects to be discussed here but in the end here are a few facts that I can live with in regards to my support of banning these from goverment properties.

1) The confederacy was America's enemy, and they waged war against America. 
2) The confederacy wasn't America. It was another nation all together.
3) The confederacy lost.
4) The confederacy doesn't exist anymore, meaning their flags should not fly anymore.
5) One big topic that caused the confederacy to exist was slavery, which still still strikes a chord (pun!) with many americans living today.

Like I said. There are many truths here on both sides. I get symbols change and good people see that flag different. But taking into account the 5 facts above, seriously, pick a better symbol to represent the south. The above are irrefutable.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

vilk said:


> Besides that I did not compare them on the basis of their lives or actions but rather the degree to which public displays might potentially offend people, people who self identify as neo-Nazis are up in arms about the removal of Robert E Lee statues
> 
> edit: oh wait, I did compare them as military leaders, but that was in response to someone else's comment



They can't really be compared at all though because regardless of any context used, inevitably the path leads to Hitler being responsible for genocide and the murder of millions of people, you can't remove that from his legacy.

I'm not from the south, nor am I a Nazi, and I don't really care about stuff with the confederate flag on it being removed, but I think Robert E. Lee is unquestionably an important person in our country's history. I think my objection comes from my opinion that people in general do not have much of an understanding of history. Lee I guess is seen as a symbol of slavery, racism, and hatred and so people find a statue of him offensive, but the truth about him doesn't really reflect those things, so we're pulling something down almost in ignorance. I think my issue is I see the "slippery slope" (which granted, may never materialize) of dumbing down mankind's history and pulling potentially offensive historical figures from the record books to hide the shitty, bloody truth that is our history because it isn't as pretty as we'd like our future generations to think.


----------



## xzacx (Aug 23, 2017)

protest said:


> I think my issue is I see the "slippery slope" (which granted, may never materialize) of dumbing down mankind's history and pulling potentially offensive historical figures from the record books to hide the shitty, bloody truth that is our history because it isn't as pretty as we'd like our future generations to think.



It's not mutually exclusive. I can't ever recall someone saying in these debates that these figures should be erased them from the record books. There's a big difference between teaching about them, and placing them on a figurative and literal pedestal like a statue.


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

absolutely no one is suggesting that we change or delete history. In fact, better widespread understanding of history thanks to education and access to information is the very reason why we want to remove rebel flags and Lost Cause statues.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

xzacx said:


> It's not mutually exclusive. I can't ever recall someone saying in these debates that these figures should be erased them from the record books. There's a big difference between teaching about them, and placing them on a figurative and literal pedestal like a statue.



That's why I used the term slippery slope, nothing like that may ever come about, but doing things in a reactionary manner always gives me pause. I just worry about the dumbing down of our country. For example, ESPN pulled an Asian commentator from doing a game in Virginia because his name is Robert Lee, and that might offend someone...I guess I just don't trust people to handle things properly. I mean if there's a Robert E Lee statue in Utah than yea whatever, but I think it has historical significance in Virginia. I'd rather seem them place a plaque with some historical context next to it in order to educate, and also erect monuments to Civil Rights leaders and important African and Native American figures rather than just tear it down. 




vilk said:


> absolutely no one is suggesting that we change or delete history. In fact, history is the very reason why we want to remove rebel flags and Lost Cause statues.



A strawman is if I took something you said, twisted it to something different and then made an argument against that. I said my concern is that I don't trust things when they're done in a reactionary manner because certain things will get swept up in it that maybe shouldn't, it has nothing to do with anything you or anyone else in this thread has said.


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

You mean like suggesting people who want to remove rebel flags and take down Lost Cause statues from public display are in favor of dumbing down mankind's history and pulling potentially offensive historical figures from the record books ? Like that?

edit: oh sorry hadn't realized that you wrote "slippery slope" which as we all know fully excuses logically fallacious points.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

vilk said:


> You mean like suggesting people are in favor of dumbing down mankind's history and pulling potentially offensive historical figures from the record books ? Like that?



This is actually the only strawman in this conversation. You took the sentence:

"I think my issue is I see the *"slippery slope" (which granted, may never materialize)* of dumbing down mankind's history and pulling potentially offensive historical figures from the record books"

And turned it into something else which you are now arguing against. You can think my concerns are misguided, and that's fine, but they're my concerns. I'm not saying anyone has come out and blatantly said those things. It's just a path I can see being taken, which worries me.


----------



## vilk (Aug 23, 2017)

Sorry for making assumptions. I just see that very straw man argument used _constantly and consistently_ by people who want to defend keeping rebel flags and Lost Cause statues on public display.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

vilk said:


> Sorry for making assumptions. I just see that very straw man argument used _constantly and consistently_ by people who want to defend keeping rebel flags and Lost Cause statues on public display.



It's fine, I just have an inherit distrust of people in authoritative positions doing things correctly, especially when they're pressured, and especially when it's related to such a sensitive topic. My mind usually wanders to the worst case scenario and goes "yea I can completely see that happening." 

I've never owned a rebel flag or anything that was decorated with it, and I don't really see the point of a flag of a failed state that tried to break away from our country. I don't think that's the same thing as having a statue of Robert E Lee in Virginia. Like I said previously the random lost cause statues and school/road names, yea do whatever, but I don't see a statue of Lee in Virginia as being overtly offensive considering his historical importance.


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Aug 23, 2017)

At this point I'm not sure how relative this is, but... 

Living in Texas, I ordered a Dime "Lone Star Tribute" a few years ago. I thought it was "cool" at the time... even though graphics on guitars are generally not my thing. Well, they sent me the wrong one. They sent me the Confederate Flag model. While waiting for them to send me the correct guitar, I had some time to reflect and contemplate a few things. In the end, BOTH guitars went back because I ultimately decided that:

#1. Silk-screened images on guitar tops are indeed not my thing.
#2. The razorback is very uncomfortable and heavy imo. 
#3. These models did nothing to make me feel like Dime would approve of what Dean was doing. 
#4. These models simply did not embody anything about who I was... as a person nor as a player. 
#5. Cheesy guitars make for great photo op's when your girlfriend is willing to get naked. 

So long story short... I got some neat pictures and sent them back... not because of anything related to slavery, racism, etc... but just because they were in bad taste. How I didn't see that initially, I'll never understand. Maybe as a teenager I would have thought that one or the other was "bad ass" but not in my adult years.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

^^White teenage boys in our culture have 3 symbols of rebellion and bad assness. Rebel flag, swastika, and an inverted cross. They're all stupid even for a teenager, but if you get into your mid 20's and you're still rocking them...well...


----------



## bnzboy (Aug 23, 2017)

Sorry I started the thread to talk about Dime's guitar and what I have found on Dean's website and never knew it was going to blow up. Looks like the guitar has been brought down and possibly no longer being produced.


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Aug 23, 2017)

protest said:


> ^^White teenage boys in our culture have 3 symbols of rebellion and bad assness. Rebel flag, swastika, and an inverted cross. They're all stupid even for a teenager, but if you get into your mid 20's and you're still rocking them...well...



Well... the Lone Star "tribute" has no confederate flag image. That was the one that I had initially ordered and again, even that was more "on a whim". I definitely didn't jive with either model in person.


----------



## Rawkmann (Aug 23, 2017)

bnzboy said:


> Sorry I started the thread to talk about Dime's guitar and what I have found on Dean's website and never knew it was going to blow up. Looks like the guitar has been brought down and possibly no longer being produced.



Don't know why You'd apologize for starting a topic of discussion. As far as I can tell nothing really got out of hand and people have been pretty civil about it overall.


----------



## BrailleDecibel (Aug 23, 2017)

Looks like Edsel Dope brought the rebel flag back to Dean, for a limited time only:






...nope.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 23, 2017)

vilk said:


> Robert E Lee himself opposed confederate monuments.
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/robert-e-lee-opposed-confederate-monuments/
> 
> Hitler and his Nazi advisers were also pretty good military tacticians, so I suppose you'd find it disrespectful to tear down monuments of them as well?
> ...


Hitler was a terrible tactician and has no place being compared to Lee or Jackson. Also, Rommel is the father of modern tank warfare, and many of the German generals were highly skilled tacticians. They literally wrote the book on modern warfare and combined arms usage. The US Army straight up hired multiple german generals to teach us their tactics. Maybe you should actually read about WWII instead of perpetuating the collective guilt bullshit that the world has been force fed since the end of the war. Not all germans were on the death squads or working in the concentration camps (in fact a lot of east europeans and jews were actually recruited as capos or participated in death squads, so it wasn't just Germans murdering people). Hell the Russians systematically murdered more people than the Germans but all we ever hear about is how the Nazis were the biggest shitbags of the era. Go read the book Bloodlands or Fall of Berlin by Antony Beevor and look at the laundry list of horrifying things the Russians did to german civilians. 
It's the same thing with Lee and Jackson, yes both fought for the south and for whatever that entailed, but that doesn't mean they don't deserve recognition for their military achievements. Divorce the political beliefs and viewpoints from the actual value they offered as tacticians, which is significant (they still teach about Lee, Jacskon, Rommel and Guderian at the military academies and in ROTC). I never implied that their defection from the Union was a point of merit, they were excellent soldier and tacticians that rightly deserve to be honored, just like Grant, Sherman and a number of other union generals have been. They both won numerous awards for their roles in the war against Mexico in the 1850s in addition to their participation in the civil war, so they are an integral part of American military history, just like the other gifted and oft maligned defector from the Revolutionary war, Benedict Arnold. I fail to see how a statue to a great general is indicative of white supremacy and slavery, just like I fail to see how some of these protestors thought defacing a 225 year old Christopher Columbus monument is in any way conducive to supporting their arguments.


----------



## protest (Aug 23, 2017)

High Plains Drifter said:


> Well... the Lone Star "tribute" has no confederate flag image. That was the one that I had initially ordered and again, even that was more "on a whim". *I definitely didn't jive with either model* in person.



And there's a reason for that..you're an adult lol.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 23, 2017)

BrailleDecibel said:


> Looks like Edsel Dope brought the rebel flag back to Dean, for a limited time only:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't even believe that shitty band is still around.


----------



## feraledge (Aug 23, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Maybe you should actually read about WWII instead of perpetuating the collective guilt bullshit that the world has been force fed since the end of the war.


Woah buddy, is this really where we're at here?? No one is saying the Nazis weren't good tacticians. That, in fact, was a huge part of the problem. And where does the idea that other people killed MILLIONS of people get overlooked exactly?? 
If you find yourself defending the military prowess and ability of the Nazis, might be time to just take some time offline and just reflect a bit.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 23, 2017)

Also read up on the reasons why the Russians treated the Germans this way. The Germans were hardly nice to the local civilian populations in towns as they invaded the Soviet Union. Entire towns were wiped out and the civilian populations murdered. The war between the Soviets and Germans was far more bloody and full of personal hatred than anything the rest of the allies dealt with. All of us in the West like to think we won't the war at D-day and the battle of the bulge. That we saved Europe's ass from Hitler. The Soviets took care of the majority of Germany. Stalin constantly asked the other allies for help by opening a second front on Hitler since 1941. By the time we finally arrived in 1944 they no longer needed our help.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 23, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Also read up on the reasons why the Russians treated the Germans this way. The Germans were hardly nice to the local civilian populations in towns as they invaded the Soviet Union. Entire towns were wiped out and the civilian populations murdered. The war between the Soviets and Germans was far more bloody and full of personal hatred than anything the rest of the allies dealt with. All of us in the West like to think we won't the war at D-day and the battle of the bulge. That we saved Europe's ass from Hitler. The Soviets took care of the majority of Germany. Stalin constantly asked the other allies for help by opening a second front on Hitler since 1941. By the time we finally arrived in 1944 they no longer needed our help.


Didn't Stalin accuse England of harboring Hitler or something like that?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 23, 2017)

feraledge said:


> Woah buddy, is this really where we're at here?? No one is saying the Nazis weren't good tacticians. That, in fact, was a huge part of the problem. And where does the idea that other people killed MILLIONS of people get overlooked exactly??
> If you find yourself defending the military prowess and ability of the Nazis, might be time to just take some time offline and just reflect a bit.


You'd be surprised how many people don't know about the horrible things the Russians did. I've met quite a lot of people that haven't read or even heard about the millions of women raped by the russians, and the many millions more that they murdered. I don't condone what the nazis did to millions of people, but as I said, they are commonly praised and cited as the fathers of modern warfare and that's where my interest lies.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 23, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Also read up on the reasons why the Russians treated the Germans this way. The Germans were hardly nice to the local civilian populations in towns as they invaded the Soviet Union. Entire towns were wiped out and the civilian populations murdered. The war between the Soviets and Germans was far more bloody and full of personal hatred than anything the rest of the allies dealt with. All of us in the West like to think we won't the war at D-day and the battle of the bulge. That we saved Europe's ass from Hitler. The Soviets took care of the majority of Germany. Stalin constantly asked the other allies for help by opening a second front on Hitler since 1941. By the time we finally arrived in 1944 they no longer needed our help.


The retribution that the Russians took was far more savage than anything the germans did from the accounts I've read. Antony Beevor had direct access to KGB archives and wrote the book Fall of Berlin based off those reports. There is A LOT of rape and savagery committed and documented firsthand by the russians. I have a paper I read by a graduate student who wrote her thesis after interviewing something like 100 ukrainian women who were alive during WWII. In the paper they often claim that of the two they hated the russians more, since they would frequently get drunk and gang rape women (including russian women who were forced labor for the Germans in one camp). As the Russians approached Germany they began eliminating civilians as well, either by shooting them or hanging them and sometimes far worse methods as well. The Russians also systematically elminated a large number of poles and romani, with mass graves containing thousands discovered years after the war. Estimates are that the Russians killed 3.3 million Ukrainians via starvation in 1933. They murdered 200,000 Poles at Katyn. Both groups are equally shitty and murdered millions.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 24, 2017)

And to think the poor poor Nazis wouldn't had to have worried about it if they didn't run off invading the Soviets and murdering civilians. Of course the Russians did some horrible shit. I'm pretty sure most people would commit some atrocious revenge if their families had been murdered. You also speak as if the Russians went on a mindless killing spree. The Germans and Russians had been fighting over Poland for centuries. When Hitler invaded Poland in 1939 Stalin invaded from the east and Poland was no more. While the Nazis were murdering Poles in death camps alongside Jews and other "undesirables" the Soviets captured the Polish army. They let the enlisted men go home and kept the officers imprisoned. In 1940 Stalin decided he didn't want any potential insubordinants in the military leadership of the new Soviet satellite state so he had the officers executed. 200000 is a serious exaggeration as the actual number is closer to 20000. Everyone does shitty things especially during war. I think the world agrees that the Nazis took it to a whole new level of shitty.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 24, 2017)

possumkiller, the russians killed more people overall through famine, overwork and murder, than the germans did. 

*10,600,000 military deaths

10,000,000 Civilian deaths due to
military activity and crimes against humanity*

*6,000,000 Civilian deaths due to
war related famine and disease*


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 24, 2017)

Nobody says they didn't. My point is this guy is trying to make out like poor Nazis were mistreated by the evil Soviets for no other reason than pure evil. Like those poor innocent Nazis did nothing to provoke such an attack.


----------



## marcwormjim (Aug 24, 2017)

Sorry to butt in in the middle of this guys, but I just found out Dimebag Darrell has been murdered!


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 24, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Nobody says they didn't. My point is this guy is trying to make out like poor Nazis were mistreated by the evil Soviets for no other reason than pure evil. Like those poor innocent Nazis did nothing to provoke such an attack.


That kind of reductive reasoning is the problem. German civilians that basically had nothing to do with the war on the eastern front or eliminatiing hordes of people and didn't deserve to be raped and murdered. Being German didn't make you a evil Nazi, being a evil piece of shit made you that way. My point was simply that, in the grand scheme of things and on paper, the Russians were bigger shitbags than the Germans.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 24, 2017)

Is that not the same reductive reasoning? I'm sure plenty of Russians never harmed anybody. They had nothing to do with the war either yet somehow they're more deserving of being murdered?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 24, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Is that not the same reductive reasoning? I'm sure plenty of Russians never harmed anybody. They had nothing to do with the war either yet somehow they're more deserving of being murdered?


fair point. Neither civilian population deserved the treatment they got.


----------



## protest (Aug 24, 2017)

NSFW but I don't think I'm going to find any other thread where these jokes are going to work.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 24, 2017)

They were both total shitbags -- they being the German and Russian leadership and military. There, it's settled.


----------



## stevexc (Aug 24, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> They were both total shitbags -- they being the German and Russian leadership and military. There, it's settled.


But it's absolutely imperative we establish which one is the greater shitbag, so that we can properly determine which one shouldn't be compared to the Confederacy. That's the only way to know how racist this racist symbol is.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 24, 2017)

People have always been shitbags to other people all through history and I'm afraid it will never change. 99% of people just want to live their lives in peace and quiet but there are always some douchebag extremists that get in charge and people are too lazy to do anything about it. 

What I find very fascinating about the current situation with the confederacy is that the same democratic party that were supporters of the confederacy back then are extremely interested in wiping it away from their history now.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 24, 2017)

stevexc said:


> But it's absolutely imperative we establish which one is the greater shitbag, so that we can properly determine which one shouldn't be compared to the Confederacy. That's the only way to know how racist this racist symbol is.


If memory serves, the Russians also didn't want the Jews and that's why they migrated to Germany. I could be remembering incorrectly, however.


----------



## Rawkmann (Aug 24, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> What I find very fascinating about the current situation with the confederacy is that the same democratic party that were supporters of the confederacy back then are extremely interested in wiping it away from their history now.



I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the ideals of the Republican and Democratic parties had flipped over the years with the current Democrat party more closely resembling what the Republican party of the time was. In other words, it's in fact NOT the same Democratic Party that supported the confederacy back then.


----------



## vilk (Aug 24, 2017)

Lincoln was a Republican, he freed the slaves, so black people liked Republicans and former slave owners liked Democrats.

Then FDR was a democrat and he created all sorts of welfare and programs beneficial to poor people--which just about all black people were back then. So that didn't sit well with the white supremacist Democrats, and they all flipped back to Republican.

At least, that's my superficial understanding of the flip flop. Am I even close?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 24, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> If memory serves, the Russians also didn't want the Jews and that's why they migrated to Germany. I could be remembering incorrectly, however.


Yup. Lots of germans also got kicked out of Russia in the 1870s (same time frame as when the jews got kicked out), even though many had been there for hundreds of years (apparently a lot of them colonized the areas near the volga and vistula rivers in the early 1500s). 
This is a pretty good overview:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germans_in_Russia,_Ukraine_and_the_Soviet_Union
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 24, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Yup. Lots of germans also got kicked out of Russia in the 1870s (same time frame as when the jews got kicked out), even though many had been there for hundreds of years (apparently a lot of them colonized the areas near the volga and vistula rivers in the early 1500s).
> This is a pretty good overview:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Germans_in_Russia,_Ukraine_and_the_Soviet_Union
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Russia


Thanks, will read when I have time to do so.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 24, 2017)

vilk said:


> Lincoln was a Republican, he freed the slaves, so black people liked Republicans and former slave owners liked Democrats.
> 
> Then FDR was a democrat and he created all sorts of welfare and programs beneficial to poor people--which just about all black people were back then. So that didn't sit well with the white supremacist Democrats, and they all flipped back to Republican.
> 
> At least, that's my superficial understanding of the flip flop. Am I even close?



It was still the 1960s when LBJ set up welfare programs specifically for blacks and was quoted saying something along the lines of he would have those (n word) voting democrat for the next hundred years. The problem with people today is they seem to think any of these career politicians give a rat's ass about anything other than their own bank accounts. They never completely dealt with racism here. It seems like every few decades there is an uproar so they half ass slap something together to appease one side or the other. I really don't think they want it solved and they probably have a lot to do with escalating tensions. After all if we are all too busy hating our neighbors we won't be so focused on the underhanded BS going on in Washington. If it isn't race it's religion. If it isn't religion it's gender/sexuality. If it isn't that it's immigration status. 

There were actually FBI agents planted into the Black Panthers with orders to escalate violence and extremism so they would be seen as a threat and their message ignored. It's happened throughout our history and I'm sure it's happening now. 

I drive a truck all over the US and meet all kinds of people. I lived in a truck for two months with a black Muslim guy from West Africa. I still haven't met anyone of any color or religion that is as extreme as people want to make out on t.v.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 25, 2017)

Rawkmann said:


> I thought it was pretty common knowledge that the ideals of the Republican and Democratic parties had flipped over the years with the current Democrat party more closely resembling what the Republican party of the time was. In other words, it's in fact NOT the same Democratic Party that supported the confederacy back then.



Right but regardless it's still baffling why they would want to be associated with the same party that was so racist and supportive of the confederacy even if in name only. They want to ban or erase things that are offensive so why not rename the Democratic party? While they're at it they can ban fried chicken and Popeye's since it's an offensive racist stereotype. 

I have the unedited original Looney Toons collection of DVDs and at the beginning of each one you have to sit through a shame speech from Whooppee Goldberg telling you how racist the cartoons are and that you just have to accept it as the product of a time when everyone was racist and it was fine but now it's wrong. The only thing is I've seen like two caricatures of black people in the whole set. Somehow the hillbillies, Irish, French, Russian, Spanish, German, native American, Asian or any others weren't offended by the over the top caricatures of a cartoon show. Even Clark Gable wasn't offended by the big ass ears they always drew on him...


----------



## Mathemagician (Aug 25, 2017)

The confederate flag is one of the last Participation Trophies of the losing side of bloody civil war started by racists trying to defend their right to slavery.

That's it's "history". That's what that symbol means to everyone who didn't grow up being told there were "good" plantation owners. Glad it's finally getting buried in history books and museums where it belongs.

It's always been racist. But you always got shouted down by the racists for saying it.

And the lead singer of Pantera is a known racist. Even other bands have started calling Anselmo out. Dudes a POS. Which sucks because everything about Dime made Dime out to be a regular good country dude, who is now associated with Anselmo.


----------



## marcwormjim (Aug 25, 2017)

You guys are setting yourselves up to seem pretty foolish in hindsight once the south rises again.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 25, 2017)

Mathemagician said:


> The confederate flag is one of the last Participation Trophies of the losing side of bloody civil war started by racists trying to defend their right to slavery.
> 
> That's it's "history". That's what that symbol means to everyone who didn't grow up being told there were "good" plantation owners. Glad it's finally getting buried in history books and museums where it belongs.
> 
> ...


He probably was a good country dude. His pranks were a little reckless, and I'm surprised no one was seriously hurt, but I think intent is important. I don't think his intent was to say he was a racist piece of shit and he hates them colored people. It was probably more along the lines of Skynyrd and Dukes of Hazard.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 25, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> You guys are setting yourselves up to seem pretty foolish in hindsight once the south rises again.



HAHAHA!! I remember seeing this the first time when I was like 12. I went to a school friends house when I lived in Georgia. He had this poster on the wall with a skeleton wearing a grey uniform holding a big confederate flag and saying the south will rise again lol. I was thinking yeah right maybe if you weren't so fat you could rise again. Otherwise what are you gonna do? Run people down with your little electric mobility scooter thing? 

Actually I should probably just start my own thread in the P&CE section.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 26, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> He probably was a good country dude. His pranks were a little reckless, and I'm surprised no one was seriously hurt, but I think intent is important. I don't think his intent was to say he was a racist piece of shit and he hates them colored people. It was probably more along the lines of Skynyrd and Dukes of Hazard.


You mean apart from the time where he stood on stage and shouted "WHITE POWER"?


----------



## mnemonic (Aug 26, 2017)

Very strong opinions about the slavery that was ended over 150 years ago, what about the millions who currently live as slaves in the world today? I don't see anyone denouncing or disavowing those responsible or trying to free those slaves.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 26, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> Very strong opinions about the slavery that was ended over 150 years ago, what about the millions who currently live as slaves in the world today? I don't see anyone denouncing or disavowing those responsible or trying to free those slaves.


that would require people to do something other than bitch and moan on social media or in the streets.


----------



## cmtd (Aug 26, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> You mean apart from the time where he stood on stage and shouted "WHITE POWER"?



I'm pretty sure they were talking about dime, not Phil Anselmo


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Aug 26, 2017)

I'm tired so I might have missed someone bringing this up already, but I'm tired of seeing people saying "erasing it from our history." That's not what's happening. You can still learn the history in schools and museums... It's not being erased. People are just slowly coming to terms with it's not something to celebrate. It's similar to if people wanted to still carry around nazi flags to celebrate their german heritage. We should never forget the nazis or the confederates, but we shouldn't celebrate them or their symbolism. They're important parts of history, but they deserve no monuments.

I always thought flag guitars were gaudy trash anyway, so even on those grounds I'm happy to see it go.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Aug 26, 2017)

cmtd said:


> I'm pretty sure they were talking about dime, not Phil Anselmo


I read "And the lead singer of Pantera is a known racist. Even other bands have started calling Anselmo out. Dudes a POS. Which sucks because everything about Dime made him out to be a regular good country dude." as being, they made Anselmo out to be a good country dude.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 26, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> You mean apart from the time where he stood on stage and shouted "WHITE POWER"?


I meant Dime, not Phil. Phil's done that shit more than once.



GuitarBizarre said:


> I read "And the lead singer of Pantera is a known racist. Even other bands have started calling Anselmo out. Dudes a POS. Which sucks because everything about Dime made him out to be a regular good country dude." as being, they made Anselmo out to be a good country dude.


I read it and interpreted it as saying Dime was a good country dude.


----------



## Sogradde (Aug 26, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> I'm tired so I might have missed someone bringing this up already, but I'm tired of seeing people saying "erasing it from our history." That's not what's happening. You can still learn the history in schools and museums... It's not being erased. People are just slowly coming to terms with it's not something to celebrate. It's similar to if people wanted to still carry around nazi flags to celebrate their german heritage. We should never forget the nazis or the confederates, but we shouldn't celebrate them or their symbolism. They're important parts of history, but they deserve no monuments.


You really think they are going to stop there? They have recently destroyed a statue of Abraham Lincoln, is he a racist nazi now aswell?
The left is trying to stir up a race war by demonizing white people in general and they're doing one hell of a job polarizing people.


----------



## Mathemagician (Aug 26, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> I read "And the lead singer of Pantera is a known racist. Even other bands have started calling Anselmo out. Dudes a POS. Which sucks because everything about Dime made him out to be a regular good country dude." as being, they made Anselmo out to be a good country dude.



I'll clarify my statement. 

Dime from all accounts seems to just be "just another southern guy" who likes beer and loud music. 

Anselmo is a shitstain. As an example the lead singer from Machine Head has come out and said "guys we have to stop letting Anselmo get away with being racist AF, every time he opens his mouth people laugh it off - dudes not kidding "


----------



## vilk (Aug 26, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> I'm tired so I might have missed someone bringing this up already, but I'm tired of seeing people saying "erasing it from our history." That's not what's happening. You can still learn the history in schools and museums... It's not being erased. People are just slowly coming to terms with it's not something to celebrate. It's similar to if people wanted to still carry around nazi flags to celebrate their german heritage. We should never forget the nazis or the confederates, but we shouldn't celebrate them or their symbolism. They're important parts of history, but they deserve no monuments.
> 
> I always thought flag guitars were gaudy trash anyway, so even on those grounds I'm happy to see it go.


It's called a straw man logical fallacy. They don't have an actual rational defense of keeping up Lost Cause statues in public spaces, so they have to twist the argument and say it's about "deleting history", which doesn't even make sense.

Statue =/= history
(There were actually very few statues in any of my History classes)
Removing statue from public display =/= erasing history

I'm feeling a little bit pleb myself at the moment because right now I'm not sure what the difference is between a straw man fallacy and a false equivalency fallacy, because the "libtards wanna erase history" argument seems to be both for the same reasons...


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 26, 2017)

I'm pretty sure it's all a bullshit media shitstorm anyway. Usually whenever something politically polarizing is plastered constantly over every news outlet it means they want you to focus on that while they try to sneak some dirty underhanded BS by everyone unnoticed. If politicians really gave a shit about this stuff it would've been taken down years ago. Nancy what's her name just now decided after all these years that the statues her father put up in the halls of congress in 1948 are offending her?


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 26, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> I'm pretty sure it's all a bullshit media shitstorm anyway. Usually whenever something politically polarizing is plastered constantly over every news outlet it means they want you to focus on that while they try to sneak some dirty underhanded BS by everyone unnoticed. If politicians really gave a shit about this stuff it would've been taken down years ago. Nancy what's her name just now decided after all these years that the statues her father put up in the halls of congress in 1948 are offending her?


Gotta love MK Ultra's Operation Mockingbird. TV in general is a 24/7 brainwashing platform. It's quite obvious if you've watched They Live, which by the way, is the last John Carpenter movie to not only make it's money back, but also make money. Everything after either barely broke even or lost money. Not saying there is a conspiracy, but it's rather interesting that after that film, he couldn't get a good script or directing job to save his life. Most of the stuff post They Live is laughable.

"Nancy what's her name... etc." You mean Mrs. "I will not work with President Bush" Nancy Pelosi? I mean, her "I won't work with Pres Bush" statement would make sense if she had said that in 1990-1993 [H.W.] or 2001-2008 [Dubya], but she said that shit not once, but a few times if memory serves in 2017. She's senile and all of the botox is going to her brain. I think her surgeon stabbed the shit in the wrong spot. I don't take a single thing that comes out of her mouth as even remotely serious or truthful. Her mind is too far gone to do that.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 26, 2017)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Gotta love MK Ultra's Operation Mockingbird. TV in general is a 24/7 brainwashing platform.


This. I think this has a lot to do with the high suicide and depression rate of veterans. I lived for a year in Iraq with no TV or internet. It was amazing. Nobody was was trying to lie to me to get my money. I wasn't constantly bombarded by unnecessary bullshit. Sitting with your buddies outside smoking a cigarette watching the sun go down was an amazing experience. You really feel alive and aware that you're alive. It was like living outside the matrix. Then you come back to the so called civilised world and it hits you like a brick wall. Everyone here is a slave. We spend our lives away from our families working to make more wealth for the wealthy in exchange for a wage that we can't live on. So both parents have to work and leave the kids to be indoctrinated into their roles as slaves. Once you get to the true middle of nowhere with absolutely nothing you feel what it's like to be free from it all. You realize people aren't meant to live this way working away rushing in a haze through every day until they die. All you need is food, water, shelter and your family. All of this other shit is a huge distraction. A prison for the mind. This is why they worked so hard and fast to bring the matrix to us in the war zone. After that first year we had internet, TV, Xbox, Burger King, movie theaters and all the other mind numbing comforts of home. Three guys in my class joined the military after high school and we all survived the war. Now I'm the only one that didn't decide eating a bullet is better than living here.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 26, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> This. I think this has a lot to do with the high suicide and depression rate of veterans. I lived for a year in Iraq with no TV or internet. It was amazing. Nobody was was trying to lie to me to get my money. I wasn't constantly bombarded by unnecessary bullshit. Sitting with your buddies outside smoking a cigarette watching the sun go down was an amazing experience. You really feel alive and aware that you're alive. It was like living outside the matrix. Then you come back to the so called civilised world and it hits you like a brick wall. Everyone here is a slave. We spend our lives away from our families working to make more wealth for the wealthy in exchange for a wage that we can't live on. So both parents have to work and leave the kids to be indoctrinated into their roles as slaves. Once you get to the true middle of nowhere with absolutely nothing you feel what it's like to be free from it all. You realize people aren't meant to live this way working away rushing in a haze through every day until they die. All you need is food, water, shelter and your family. All of this other shit is a huge distraction. A prison for the mind. This is why they worked so hard and fast to bring the matrix to us in the war zone. After that first year we had internet, TV, Xbox, Burger King, movie theaters and all the other mind numbing comforts of home. Three guys in my class joined the military after high school and we all survived the war. Now I'm the only one that didn't decide eating a bullet is better than living here.


At least, regardless of the end of the political spectrum we're on, we can agree on that. 

Even if we can live on the wage, we're still poor in one of the least valued things: Time. Some people value it, but you have people that are time bandits wasting your time with nonsense, you have people working on salary thinking it's a great thing until they end up spending a bulk of their time on the job, and you have bullshit that wastes your time -- the "hurry up and wait" time wastes.

As for both parents having to work, I feel sorry for no one on that front. Women wanted to work, and not they got it. But had they just said fuck it and not pushed it, maybe then the wage would be livable. By the way, I do not care to get into a debate about the wage gap. Kids grow up without their parents and end up fucked. Meanwhile, everything is telling the female, "Hey, split up. You'll get 20% of his paycheck for the first kid, and 5% for each additional kid." No offense to anyone, but this is why some women have 1, MAYBE 2 kids per dad if they're going to have 8 kids and most of them have different dads. Child support, set up like this, encourages this kinda stuff. Not saying everyone does this, either. 

And I don't care what the fuck you believe personally about religion, politics, or any of that shit -- or the disagreements, however heated they may get -- if you need someone to talk to, talk to me or your family or someone before doing anything irrational.

PS: None of this is on topic in the slightest, other than the fact, I guess, that the rebel flag is used as another tool to divide and conquer.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 26, 2017)

I'm not on any side. I'm too conservative for the liberals and too liberal for the conservatives. They both get too extreme for me. I'm all about do WTF you want but as soon as it harms someone other than yourself it shouldn't be legal. I think everyone should have the same chances and right to live in peace. Nobody is more "supreme" than anyone else. It's too bad there isn't a party to represent regular people in the middle. 

I do find it difficult to believe when people keep trying to say because I'm a white male I had a better chance at life. I grew up dirt poor as fuck in the middle of the woods with no future in anything. I was divorced. I have to pay child support for one son I never see that has aspergers. My youngest son has autism. I have a felony record and an immigrant wife. I went through some seriously shit times. I was homeless. I lived on HUD and food stamps for two years while I was on probation. The white cops sure as hell didn't give me any special treatment. Well they didn't shoot me so I guess they did... I had friends and family that didn't do shit to help me. I went everywhere to everyone I knew swallowing my pride and begging for work and not even old friends would help out. Regular jobs wouldn't touch me while I was on probation and for a long time after. Telling them I was a veteran just made it worse. 
My point is my wife and I worked together and made shit happen. I still had to pay $800 a month child support the whole time as well. I didn't have a smart phone until the end of 2014. Even now I just have a cheap ass Wal-Mart pay as you go phone. Those iPhones and galaxies on contracts are just another money grabbing ripoff. My wife joined the army to get us away from that place. I got my CDL and now she stays home with our son and I drive a truck. We aren't billionaires but live comfortable. In November I'll be getting my own truck and leasing on with the flatbed company my dad leased to. In July we met by chance at a truck stop and he showed me his earnings. He made 102kUSD this year until July 7th. And spent 39 days at home. So I'll have my own truck and trailer and drive where I want when I want and go home when I want for as long as I want and still make 200-250kUSD per year. My point is it's very possible to start from nothing and having everything against you and still succeed. It just takes time and patience with a ton of work and sacrifice. It's too much work and responsibilities for most people so they would rather blame other people. 

If you really want it bad enough you'll make it work. That applies to almost anything. I wanted to be in a metal band as a teen but because I had a shitty unsupportive family I didn't think I played well enough or that it was even possible. It was all bullshit. If I would've ignored all the distractions and focused everything on it I would've made it. It just takes dedication and hard work. People think Keith Merrow just appeared on YouTube and got famous now he's living the big easy. He worked hard on everything he did. He perfecting his playing, his audio engineering, his video recording and editing. Now that he is a paid professional it's even more hard work. I have a lot of respect for him and what he accomplished. I decided for myself I want to just play as a hobby. Once it becomes a job it's too much like work and I don't enjoy playing as much.


----------



## possumkiller (Aug 26, 2017)

Also when we were living on food stamps we bought an old used Saab PoS for 4kUSD that we wound up spending over 12kUSD over the years in parts and repairs. Everything I know about working on cars comes from not having the money for a mechanic and doing my own work. It was scary at first but then pretty liberating. Since the new Fusion came out in 2011 my wife said she loved it because it looks like an Aston Martin. So I told her we would get one someday when we could find a cheap used one. So for years we just said there goes our car when we saw one knowing full well we would never afford it. But it was nice to daydream about. Last summer I went to the dealership and wrote them a check for a brand new 2016 titanium fusion and we drove it home with no car payments.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 26, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> I'm not on any side. I'm too conservative for the liberals and too liberal for the conservatives. They both get too extreme for me. I'm all about do WTF you want but as soon as it harms someone other than yourself it shouldn't be legal. I think everyone should have the same chances and right to live in peace. Nobody is more "supreme" than anyone else. It's too bad there isn't a party to represent regular people in the middle.


I feel ya there. I don't agree with the far right liberals about destroying property and legalizing all drugs, while I don't agree with Republicans about being so hardline about everything. I grew up a liberal, but the last 15 years have slowly turned me away from it, mainly because of the antics and hysteria. Also, I slightly disagree with "harms someone other than yourself." Why? Because even if it technically "only affects the person doing it," it still affects their family. It could also put your kids at risk by being around shady people, stuff like that. But I kinda get where you're coming from as well.



possumkiller said:


> I do find it difficult to believe when people keep trying to say because I'm a white male I had a better chance at life. I grew up dirt poor as fuck in the middle of the woods with no future in anything. I was divorced. I have to pay child support for one son I never see that has aspergers. My youngest son has autism. I have a felony record and an immigrant wife. I went through some seriously shit times. I was homeless. I lived on HUD and food stamps for two years while I was on probation. The white cops sure as hell didn't give me any special treatment. Well they didn't shoot me so I guess they did... I had friends and family that didn't do shit to help me. I went everywhere to everyone I knew swallowing my pride and begging for work and not even old friends would help out. Regular jobs wouldn't touch me while I was on probation and for a long time after. Telling them I was a veteran just made it worse.
> My point is my wife and I worked together and made shit happen. I still had to pay $800 a month child support the whole time as well. I didn't have a smart phone until the end of 2014. Even now I just have a cheap ass Wal-Mart pay as you go phone. Those iPhones and galaxies on contracts are just another money grabbing ripoff. My wife joined the army to get us away from that place. I got my CDL and now she stays home with our son and I drive a truck. We aren't billionaires but live comfortable. In November I'll be getting my own truck and leasing on with the flatbed company my dad leased to. In July we met by chance at a truck stop and he showed me his earnings. He made 102kUSD this year until July 7th. And spent 39 days at home. So I'll have my own truck and trailer and drive where I want when I want and go home when I want for as long as I want and still make 200-250kUSD per year. My point is it's very possible to start from nothing and having everything against you and still succeed. It just takes time and patience with a ton of work and sacrifice. It's too much work and responsibilities for most people so they would rather blame other people.


Living on HUD sucks ass. I hated having to fill out the papers and shit when I was in school and take them to teachers, principal, etc. It was embarrassing and demeaning, not to mention I had zero say in it at all. I grew up on food stamps and government assistance, and have to roll my eyes at conservatives who think everyone that gets food stamps gets $1k a month for food. I remember getting jack fucking shit all, getting free breakfast/lunch at school, and lucky we could afford what we could. 

$800 a month is insane. Do you make $4k a month? Not to be nosey, but that's insanely high. I think child support is thievery. I have an iPad mini 2, and a 4th gen iPod, but I've never had a smart phone. I hate being tied to that shit anyways. I'm sure you're not the type, but don't be like my cousin's ex-prison felon [he's still a felon, but he's no longer in prison] who wrecked not one, but two trucks, and raised my aunt and uncle's insurance sky high as a result. I don't really care for the guy much; it's a dirtbag thing to do to someone who pays you well and gave you a chance.



possumkiller said:


> If you really want it bad enough you'll make it work. That applies to almost anything. I wanted to be in a metal band as a teen but because I had a shitty unsupportive family I didn't think I played well enough or that it was even possible. It was all bullshit. If I would've ignored all the distractions and focused everything on it I would've made it. It just takes dedication and hard work. People think Keith Merrow just appeared on YouTube and got famous now he's living the big easy. He worked hard on everything he did. He perfecting his playing, his audio engineering, his video recording and editing. Now that he is a paid professional it's even more hard work. I have a lot of respect for him and what he accomplished. I decided for myself I want to just play as a hobby. Once it becomes a job it's too much like work and I don't enjoy playing as much.


I just laughed about you wanting to be in a metal band and not having a supportive family. Not because I think poorly of you or anything, but because it reminded me of something. My mom hated most of the music I listened to, and only my uncle has some music in common with me. 

Anyways, my dad, whom was never there for my entire life, comes around when he and his longtime girlfriend broke up -- they had a kid together, split when he turned 18 -- and acted like he wanted to be in my life when I was like 22 or 23. We would occasionally hang out and whatnot, he'd show some interest in the music I listened to at the time, which was Bullet for My Valentine, Trivium, Children of Bodom, and stuff of that sort. He's always liked rock and metal, so that wasn't too far fetched. He hounded me to play guitar for him for the longest time, and I didn't want to, but eventually after like 5-6 months I did. He basically sat there for 3-5 minutes, and walked outta the room til I was done. Apparently, my grandma later told me that I should quit or something to that effect and that I'm awful at guitar. I don't remember his exact words, but after that I told him that it'd probably be best if he didn't come around anymore.

I know I'm not great, but I have a few things I've recorded just messing around with riffs, and I've always gotten compliments, so fuck him. I can send you links to two or three things I've recorded. They aren't full songs; it's just a guitar and some riffs I'm fucking around with.

Oh, I almost forgot: My cousin Amber has always been rather impressed by my playing and always tells family and friends that I'm the best guitarist she knows in the shithole city we live in, so that's something I guess.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace (Aug 26, 2017)

possumkiller said:


> Also when we were living on food stamps we bought an old used Saab PoS for 4kUSD that we wound up spending over 12kUSD over the years in parts and repairs. Everything I know about working on cars comes from not having the money for a mechanic and doing my own work. It was scary at first but then pretty liberating. Since the new Fusion came out in 2011 my wife said she loved it because it looks like an Aston Martin. So I told her we would get one someday when we could find a cheap used one. So for years we just said there goes our car when we saw one knowing full well we would never afford it. But it was nice to daydream about. Last summer I went to the dealership and wrote them a check for a brand new 2016 titanium fusion and we drove it home with no car payments.


Random, but are you a fan of Dave Ramsey? He's really religious, which you may disagree with, but he has some good ideas about staying debt free and whatnot.


----------



## A-Branger (Aug 27, 2017)

shouldnt this tread be moved to the Politics sub-forum by now?


----------



## Ji Sung (Aug 27, 2017)

Sogradde said:


> You really think they are going to stop there? They have recently destroyed a statue of Abraham Lincoln, is he a racist nazi now aswell?
> The left is trying to stir up a race war by demonizing white people in general and they're doing one hell of a job polarizing people.


What "left" are you talking about? Those triggered feminists on college campuses?


----------

