# LGBTQ positive grunge and social media



## Gmork (Jun 19, 2021)

Im a big time lgbtq ally, always have been, always will be and over this past half year or so ive decided to make it more prominent on my social media guitar channels (youtube/insta) in slight concern that ill lose the followers (likely all metalhead types) ive gained over the past 4 or 5 years despite being a pathetic mere 280 subs lol.

But F it, ya know. If i wouldnt be friends with em in real life why would i want them around my channel. I want it to be welcoming to everyone.
And no this isnt a situation of bringing "politics" into it as human decency and respect are not political.

Anyway heres a burial at sea fuzz (by nine of swords) demo where i rip off alice in chains. Enjoy.


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## akinari (Jun 19, 2021)

Cool video, sweet riffs, nice guitar, healthy attitude. Approve.

Just realized you're the guy that runs your channel last night when I found your old XLP/VH/Amptweaker/AMT comparison video. Ha.


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## Gmork (Jun 19, 2021)

akinari said:


> Cool video, sweet riffs, nice guitar, healthy attitude. Approve.
> 
> Just realized you're the guy that runs your channel last night when I found your old XLP/VH/Amptweaker/AMT comparison video. Ha.


Thanks Yup thats me! I AM INFACT the guy that runs my channel! Mr brutal pants lolol

And omg thats so old lol. I think that was my first gear video


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## wankerness (Jun 19, 2021)

Gmork said:


> And no this isnt a situation of bringing "politics" into it as human decency and respect are not political.



Im not sure what country you’re living in, but human decency very much did become political in the US in 2016 and then considerably more in early 2020.

Regardless, I doubt you’d lose more than a few followers from that unless you’re bringing it up constantly.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jun 19, 2021)

wankerness said:


> Im not sure what country you’re living in, but human decency very much did become political in the US in 2016 and then considerably more in early 2020.



Another example of why the world is in the shitter. 

But yeah, good on you dood. Always good to show representation in metal when it's dearly needed.


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## linthat22 (Jun 19, 2021)

Ah yes, represent the alphabet soup people. Cause they really need more attention of their mind sickness.


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## Supernaut (Jun 19, 2021)

I was wondering how many posts it would be until someone objected - I was guessing about 8, but the number is 5 interestingly.


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## NoodleFace (Jun 19, 2021)

Never cater to the subs man. You do you and keep the positive mental attitude and you'll succeed


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## Chokey Chicken (Jun 19, 2021)

I love that to combat the "icky mind sickness" people resort to such childish insults as "alphabet soup people." lol

As a member of the lgbtq community, it's always appreciated to feel included. Normalizing it is the best thing you can do!


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## NoodleFace (Jun 19, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Ah yes, represent the alphabet soup people. Cause they really need more attention of their mind sickness.


You know how I know you're a piece of shit?


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## Werecow (Jun 19, 2021)

Gmork said:


> Im a big time lgbtq ally, always have been, always will be and over this past half year or so ive decided to make it more prominent on my social media guitar channels (youtube/insta) in slight concern that ill lose the followers (likely all metalhead types) ive gained over the past 4 or 5 years despite being a pathetic mere 280 subs lol.
> 
> But F it, ya know. If i wouldnt be friends with em in real life why would i want them around my channel. I want it to be welcoming to everyone.
> And no this isnt a situation of bringing "politics" into it as human decency and respect are not political.
> ...



Every time i click on your videos i'm impressed by the inventiveness of your tones. As a result, they never sound like the cookie cutter plugin tones a lot of guitar music has these days. Great work


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## linthat22 (Jun 19, 2021)

NoodleFace said:


> You know how I know you're a piece of shit?



Cause you'll never be a woman when you have to dilate for life to keep an infected wound open and then you might still end up in the 41% club?


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## TheInvisibleHand (Jun 19, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Cause you'll never be a woman when you have to dilate for life to keep an infected wound open and then you might still end up in the 41% club?



Uh, I don't think that means what you think it means.


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## linthat22 (Jun 19, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Uh, I don't think that means what you think it means.



Enlighten me oh wise one.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Jun 19, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Enlighten me oh wise one.



The hardest of passes.


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## Alex79 (Jun 19, 2021)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> The hardest of passes.




Best possible answer!


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Jun 19, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Ah yes, represent the alphabet soup people. Cause they really need more attention of their mind sickness.


Why go out of your way to post your knuckle dragging opinions? You ever hear of live and let live?


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## Gmork (Jun 19, 2021)

This is why i continue to be a part of this community
And for anyone who cares i have a VERY special video coming up to celebrate pridemonth which may involve a member of one of westcoast canadas sickest deathmetal bands! So stay tuned in to my yt/insta channel.... If you want lol

@Werecow thanks man! Means a lot


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## ixlramp (Jun 19, 2021)

Gmork said:


> in slight concern that ill lose the followers (likely all metalhead types)


Perhaps you did not mean it this way, but i doubt 'metalhead types' are more anti-LGBTQ than average =)
That is an unfortunate and false stereotype. In fact i expect they are less anti-LGBTQ than average, this is supported by my experience.


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## Gmork (Jun 19, 2021)

ixlramp said:


> Perhaps you did not mean it this way, but i doubt 'metalhead types' are more anti-LGBTQ than average =)
> That is an unfortunate and false stereotype. In fact i expect they are less anti-LGBTQ than average, this is supported by my experience.


Poor wording on my behalf for sure, no i did not mean to imply that, i myself am a "metalhead" and am very involved in the metal scene here on Vancouver Island and 99% ARE the coolest most accepting awesome folks ever! I totally agree that in general the metal community are great that way. On the other hand there are the other metalheads who are into TRVE METAL and none of this "pussy gay shit".. Alpha male types stuck in the stone age. The types who take the whole macho agressive thing way too seriously. The types who use the word f*g in their daily vocabulary. The types who dont know the difference between their and there lol.
... I meant THOSE metalheads... The "REAL" METALHEADS lol


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## linthat22 (Jun 19, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Why go out of your way to post your knuckle dragging opinions? You ever hear of live and let live?



The alphabet soup community is around 3% of the population. My opinion isn't knuckle dragging, it's calling out the mental illness in them folks.


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## NoodleFace (Jun 19, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Cause you'll never be a woman when you have to dilate for life to keep an infected wound open and then you might still end up in the 41% club?


I'm just a white dude tired of the hate, I have no idea what you're getting on about


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## narad (Jun 19, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> The alphabet soup community is around 3% of the population. My opinion isn't knuckle dragging, it's calling out the mental illness in them folks.



Lol, and I guess you're a licensed psychiatrist and not just some random guy that listens to a bunch of conservative podcasts when he feels threatened?


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## akinari (Jun 19, 2021)

Just a friendly reminder that the ignore button exists and that some folks aren't worth arguing with.


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## narad (Jun 19, 2021)

akinari said:


> Just a friendly reminder that the ignore button exists and that some folks aren't worth arguing with.



Sure, but only through continued arguing with those who violate site rules does the universal and permanent ignore button get pushed.


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## Gmork (Jun 19, 2021)

Im really happy i posted this. Seems ive got some automatic friends out there!!


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## akinari (Jun 19, 2021)

narad said:


> Sure, but only through continued arguing with those who violate site rules does the universal and permanent ignore button get pushed.



Pretty sure there's already enough fuel for that given his post history.


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## lurè (Jun 20, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> The alphabet soup community is around 3% of the population. My opinion isn't knuckle dragging, it's calling out the mental illness in them folks.



Such a big mental illness that has been removed from the DSM almost 50 years ago for not being an illness.


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## Zhysick (Jun 20, 2021)

I'm subscribing to your YT right now. I'm an ally too, always will be.


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## Strobe (Jun 20, 2021)

ixlramp said:


> Perhaps you did not mean it this way, but i doubt 'metalhead types' are more anti-LGBTQ than average =)
> That is an unfortunate and false stereotype. In fact i expect they are less anti-LGBTQ than average, this is supported by my experience.



Same here. Big ally myself, and while no community is a monolith, I have found the metal community to be mostly of similar mind. My personal experience would be that this group would be more allies than the general public.


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## KailM (Jun 20, 2021)

FWIW I’m very conservative and fully support the upholding of LBGQT+ rights, dignity, respect, etc.

We’re not all assholes, if you can believe it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jun 20, 2021)

Ya know...you COULD just ignore troll posts.

Troll posters want attention. I don't understand why they can't get ignored and mods just ban them and we can all just move on.


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## SexHaver420 (Jun 20, 2021)

That pedal sounds cool and I'm glad someone else likes to use single coils for heavier stuff. I like the extra clarity from them

I'm also as obnoxiously and visibly trans and bi as possible just to spite homophobes and transphobes 

Also I'm cuter than all of them


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 20, 2021)

In my experience, metalheads are usually some of the most tolerant people. Usually people are just about enjoying the music, and it's less about being cool or whatever.

Decades ago, I went to my first festival. Tried to get to see Slayer, and there are these massive hairy "biker" dudes and they looked after me and my friends the whole show. And we were these little skinny 12-14 year olds of 3 nationalities. And when I have been to any gigs since, you see all sorts of people - in suits coming from work, different races etc. Who knows if they are gay or whatever, and who cares? IMO, the less we can talk about peoples "identity" defined by skin colour or sexuality, the better.


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## Gmork (Jun 21, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> That pedal sounds cool and I'm glad someone else likes to use single coils for heavier stuff. I like the extra clarity from them
> 
> I'm also as obnoxiously and visibly trans and bi as possible just to spite homophobes and transphobes
> 
> Also I'm cuter than all of them


haha omg i love this!!


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> metalheads are usually some of the most tolerant people


As tempting as it is to say the same thing, I'm always hesitant to generalize in that way just because of the scale of the community. Just as a result of spending time in those circles, most of the best people I know are "metalheads", but so are the worst. If I listened to country music, I'm sure I'd be able to say the same thing.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jun 21, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> IMO, the less we can talk about peoples "identity" defined by skin colour or sexuality, the better.



This is ultimately the end goal. Unfortunately we can't get there without talking about/normalizing it. A lot of people are finally getting some semblance of a normal and happy life after decades and decades of being shunned. So people get excited when they get to experience "normal" things. 

I look forward to the day a dude can kiss another dude on the cheek as they part ways, or any number of similar normal interactions between people who love each other, and people just don't care. I can't wait for it to just not be news every time an "alphabet soup person" (sorry, that term makes my queer ass laugh) does something normal. 

One day, hopefully sooner than later. For now all I can say is that I feel a lot more comfortable now than I did back in high school, so there's been big change in recent years. Which is great, and because people are vocal about their support.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 21, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Ah yes, represent the alphabet soup people. Cause they really need more attention of their mind sickness.


I'm sure there's a hole you can crawl back in.


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

Realizing now the downside to the ignore function is that it deletes quotes too, making it look like un-ignored posts are pointed at the wrong person.


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## maliciousteve (Jun 21, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Ah yes, represent the alphabet soup people. Cause they really need more attention of their mind sickness.



I'm not going to pretend I understand everything there is to the community in question, but if you really don't like it just stay away from threads like this rather than being quite shitty to a stranger on the internet. No one gains anything from it, just move on and talk about something else.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 21, 2021)

Dude it's literally like word for word "I discovered /pol/ last week" Starter Pack. Surprised the guy is still not banned.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 21, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> Ah yes, represent the alphabet soup people. Cause they really need more attention of their mind sickness.



[Joe Rogan has entered the chat]


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

I've always seen a ton of acceptance and positivity in all sexualities and races within metal. I feel like it's a genre that is very misunderstood to the public eye in this regard. Could be because it's more of a newer thing (past 10-15 years) as compared to the metal scene of the 80s and 90s.

There is something I've been thinking about lately though, maybe this isn't the right spot for it, but I figured it could add some discussion. As an outsider looking in, the LGBT community has looked less and less like an actual community and more like a political warfare. For example, why was the flag recently changed? I thought the whole purpose of the rainbow was that it included the whole color spectrum. Meaning that everyone regardless of gender, sexuality, or race was included. Why are there thousands of identities now? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of the LGBT community? Isn't everyone on the whole page of being able to not look at someone's identify and to accept everyone no matter what? If so, does this whole identity crisis that people go through just throw all of that out the window? I feel like the goal is to go away from identities, instead, to just accept people for people. Instead, this world has felt more divided than ever when it comes to sexuality and race. 

So while I fully support LGBT people of all colors, genders, and sexualities, it's incredibly hard to get on board with a group that's just destroying themselves from the inside. This is just my 2 cents from an outsiders prospective, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same in this world. People just want to be understood, but society is just straying further and further away and making that harder and harder to do.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 21, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> I've always seen a ton of acceptance and positivity in all sexualities and races within metal. I feel like it's a genre that is very misunderstood to the public eye in this regard. Could be because it's more of a newer thing (past 10-15 years) as compared to the metal scene of the 80s and 90s.
> 
> There is something I've been thinking about lately though, maybe this isn't the right spot for it, but I figured it could add some discussion. As an outsider looking in, the LGBT community has looked less and less like an actual community and more like a political warfare. For example, why was the flag recently changed? I thought the whole purpose of the rainbow was that it included the whole color spectrum. Meaning that everyone regardless of gender, sexuality, or race was included. Why are there thousands of identities now? Doesn't this defeat the whole purpose of the LGBT community? Isn't everyone on the whole page of being able to not look at someone's identify and to accept everyone no matter what? If so, does this whole identity crisis that people go through just throw all of that out the window? I feel like the goal is to go away from identities, instead, to just accept people for people. Instead, this world has felt more divided than ever when it comes to sexuality and race.
> 
> So while I fully support LGBT people of all colors, genders, and sexualities, it's incredibly hard to get on board with a group that's just destroying themselves from the inside. This is just my 2 cents from an outsiders prospective, and I'm sure plenty of others feel the same in this world. People just want to be understood, but society is just straying further and further away and making that harder and harder to do.



Gender is a social construct and you cannot set limits on how a person may identify with themselves and the world around them.


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Gender is a social construct and you cannot set limits on how a person may identify with themselves and the world around them.


I never denied that, but am I wrong? By adding more identities, it strays us further from being able to accept everyone for who they are. The reason we are seeing such an influx in genders is because of society not accepting others to be themselves. Removing identities and not having a label attached to someone theoretically would remove judgement on someone. I just want to be clear, I'm not against anyone for wanting to live how they want to live, I'm trying to give reasons why some people are so resistant to these new ideas. I like to play devil's advocate with things to see all sides.


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

The G word has been used, the countdown to thread implosion has begun. Edit: Which on some level I think is what Albake was getting at.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 21, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> By adding more identities, it strays us further from being able to accept everyone for who they are.



To be fair, people that are not willing to accept others will wince whether there are two or two thousand identities. Nothing has really changed other than the volume settings on bigots seems to have been cranked up louder than normal because populism won an election a little while back.


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> To be fair, people that are not willing to accept others will wince whether there are two or two thousand identities. Nothing has really changed other than the volume settings on bigots seems to have been cranked up louder than normal because populism won an election a little while back.


True, but at least now we get to see who the true awful people are in this world. All of the bigots came out of the ducts in recent years loud and clear.


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The G word has been used, the countdown to thread implosion has begun. Edit: Which on some level I think is what Albake was getting at.


For the most part, yeah. I just feel from a Psychological level, trans wouldn't even exist if we didn't have judgment towards the way people present themselves, act, or feel. I guess I just have a big interest in the topic from a more institutional level rather than what some random on social media tells me. There's just so much untouched research to be done. I find it rather interesting. Again, I want to be clear! I have no hate in me towards any single person on this earth, hell I'm literally a bi dude, so I do get it a bit.


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> Nothing has really changed


I don't think it's quite as clear cut as that. The impression I've got is that the subject of gender in particular has gotten heated in a way that a lot of other arguments don't. It's got a sort of "untouchable" quality to it. We had the "ask me questions about it" thread a while back and I thought maybe this was a rare opportunity where you could ask some real questions and get some real understanding going, but I don't think people want to discuss it without it being strictly in their own terms - which, I get it, but at the same time, nobody is going to come to an understanding that way.

And I get it - people should be able to do as they please, and be as they please, and be comfortable and live the lives they want, etc. - but I can also see the other side of not understanding and having so many barriers to understanding, and being met with much fervour when you approach the subject (even if you don't take the kind of approach linthat does, for example).


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

Maybe a more appropriate comment is something more along the lines of - if this was a forum was specifically _about_ politics and _about_ identities and _about_ getting into the details of those things, I'd have a lot of opinions and comments and questions and would want to (carefully) engage in that - but, as I gatta remind myself at times, this is a guitar forum. In the context of music, guitars, etc., those things don't matter. And in a lot of contexts those things don't matter. And in a bunch of contexts it's made to matter when it shouldn't. And yes, I can appreciate that this is the more important point than the details.


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Maybe a more appropriate comment is something more along the lines of - if this was a forum was specifically _about_ politics and _about_ identities and _about_ getting into the details of those things, I'd have a lot of opinions and comments and questions and would want to (carefully) engage in that - but, as I gatta remind myself at times, this is a guitar forum. In the context of music, guitars, etc., those things don't matter. And in a lot of contexts those things don't matter. And in a bunch of contexts it's made to matter when it shouldn't. And yes, I can appreciate that this is the more important point than the details.


Very true, I probably shouldn't have even said anything. It's just been really on my mind lately, thought I'd share some thoughts. Hope for others to gain some understanding from the discussion. That's really all I can ask from others.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 21, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The impression I've got is that the subject of gender in particular has gotten heated in a way that a lot of other arguments don't. It's got a sort of "untouchable" quality to it.



Not to get too far into the weeds, but sex and gender are easy to separate. If someone is conflating the two, it is either because they have an agenda or they are so uninformed that they should not be tossing their hat into the ring to begin with. We get relatively few spins around the sun and to spend time trying to stop people from finding happiness, a sense of place, or self-worth seems a wasted venture. I'm a resident shit poster around here, but just be excellent to each other. Simple mantra.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 21, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Maybe a more appropriate comment is something more along the lines of - if this was a forum was specifically _about_ politics and _about_ identities and _about_ getting into the details of those things, I'd have a lot of opinions and comments and questions and would want to (carefully) engage in that - but, as I gatta remind myself at times, this is a guitar forum. In the context of music, guitars, etc., those things don't matter. And in a lot of contexts those things don't matter. And in a bunch of contexts it's made to matter when it shouldn't. And yes, I can appreciate that this is the more important point than the details.



I think the issue is multi-faceted, many who fall on the LGBTQ spectrum have had to, literally, fight for thier very existence, so when engaging with those ignorant to their struggles, they can be guarded and quick to start fighting because, especially on the internet, it's hard to really figure out if someone is trying to discuss in good faith or just waiting for their turn to attack. 

It's also important to remember that folks don't exist as solitary blocks who have the same ideas or experiences. While you and I are both heterosexual white dudes, we have had vastly different lives and thus our ideas and opinions vary considerably. So asking a gay man in his 60's from Michigan the same question as a Trans women in her 20's from Portland, Oregon about the state of "the movement" at large will result is different thoughts and opinions and goals. 

But at the heart of it, folks shouldn't be expected have to justify their existence.


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

I don't disagree, generally speaking.

Maybe a better phrasing would be that I don't think we've figured out _how_ to have those conversations. The internet is not good at disagreeing in a way that doesn't look or feel antagonistic. Disagreeing with some small detail about how identity works doesn't need to mean you think they're somehow invalid as a person - the internet is just terrible at that.

I mean, I hate to draw the comparison, but I see it as being similar to religion - you can disagree, either on small details or on large fundamental concepts, and still just let people be. I would never tell a person they're wrong about their lifestyle or identity or whatever else in the same way I wouldn't tell someone they're wrong about their faith.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 21, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Maybe a more appropriate comment is something more along the lines of - if this was a forum was specifically _about_ politics and _about_ identities and _about_ getting into the details of those things, I'd have a lot of opinions and comments and questions and would want to (carefully) engage in that - but, as I gatta remind myself at times, this is a guitar forum. In the context of music, guitars, etc., those things don't matter. And in a lot of contexts those things don't matter. And in a bunch of contexts it's made to matter when it shouldn't. And yes, I can appreciate that this is the more important point than the details.


sorry, but these things are not mutually exclusive. 

we have many openly queer people on this very forum who play guitars; we are also part of your preferred hobby. but, there are also people on this forum who hold bigoted views, and who have made their presence known in this thread. even though this is a forum "about guitars," we still have people hostile to our very existence. these things are deeply entwined, and it does no good to brush it off and segregate it just because you wanna tiptoe around sensitive subject matter or whatever.


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

^ That's not at all what I was saying, and I kinda disagree. The seven-string-guitar forum is not the place to dive into the details of working out societies understanding of identities. Weed out inappropriate behaviour and comments to other members of the community? Yes. Address when something comes up that needs to be addressed? Absolutely. Talk about it in the context of music and the scene and the forum itself, yeah, of course. But past that, there isn't a need to get into arguments over it here.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 21, 2021)

are you talking about this subforum, or SSrg as a whole?


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

I don't see the difference. Either/or. Both.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 21, 2021)

yeah, so that tells me you're uncomfortable with the subject matter. which is fine, because it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. however, this is a public forum and we are free to discuss a wide range of topics, including things like gender expression and queer visibility.


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

eggy in a bready said:


> yeah, so that tells me you're uncomfortable with the subject matter. which is fine, because it makes a lot of people uncomfortable. however, this is a public forum and we are free to discuss a wide range of topics, including things like gender expression and queer visibility.


Genuine question, are we? Or is that considered off topic. I think that's what TedEH is getting at. Literally from a rules perspective, are we able to on a guitar forum.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 21, 2021)

i mean, if we're talking about rigorous rules about posting stuff in exactly the right subforums, then yeah maybe? but this thread is about music, is it not?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 21, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> Literally from a rules perspective, are we able to on a guitar forum.



I mean, if it needs to be moved/deleted/moderated, I'm literally right here. 

As long as things are civil, and stuff can be framed as existing within the sphere of guitar/music/etc. such as the original purpose of this thread, then I don't see a reason to stop it, barring an outcry from the community.



TedEH said:


> I don't disagree, generally speaking.
> 
> Maybe a better phrasing would be that I don't think we've figured out _how_ to have those conversations. The internet is not good at disagreeing in a way that doesn't look or feel antagonistic. Disagreeing with some small detail about how identity works doesn't need to mean you think they're somehow invalid as a person - the internet is just terrible at that.
> 
> I mean, I hate to draw the comparison, but I see it as being similar to religion - you can disagree, either on small details or on large fundamental concepts, and still just let people be. I would never tell a person they're wrong about their lifestyle or identity or whatever else in the same way I wouldn't tell someone they're wrong about their faith.



Perhaps don't be so reactionary when you get taken as a bad faith actor and work towards re-establishing decorum if you really care enough to move forward with the discussion.

It's rarely a problem with people don't agree, and more to do with what happens when friction occurs.

These are certainly difficult things to discuss 1) from a place of relative ignorance and 2) on probably the least nuanced platform available.

But, with enough humility, it's certainly doable.


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## TheBlackBard (Jun 21, 2021)

As someone who recently came to terms with my own sexuality and the fact that I'm not 100 percent straight and took it for what it was, I do appreciate this. That said, I've operated as a straight person in society for so long without really wondering why I found some men attractive in the same way that I find most women attractive, and I don't just mean physically, I also mean as potential partners, that I myself don't feel as if I really belong in the community if that makes any kind of sense. It might be misguided to think of it this way, but I haven't dealt with the same amount of hardship that most in the community have had to since I veer more towards women. I never really felt like I had to hide anything since I was always more attracted to women anyways and most people in my life would never suspect that I'm attracted to anything but. With all that said, good on your for being an ally to the community and being someone who provides this kind of friendly entertainment for them.


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## SexHaver420 (Jun 21, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> For the most part, yeah. I just feel from a Psychological level, trans wouldn't even exist if we didn't have judgment towards the way people present themselves, act, or feel. I guess I just have a big interest in the topic from a more institutional level rather than what some random on social media tells me. There's just so much untouched research to be done. I find it rather interesting. Again, I want to be clear! I have no hate in me towards any single person on this earth, hell I'm literally a bi dude, so I do get it a bit.



As trans person I don't agree with this entirely. For me without estrogen in my system my brain literally cannot make happy chemicals. When my system was running on testosterone I was completely miserable and feel 100% disconnected from my body and I'd disassociate every time I'd look in the mirror and it was awful. Some trans people might not identify as trans if it was way more acceptable to just do and wear whatever they wanted and they wouldn't be judged tho and it would be cool if the whole world worked that way.


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## TedEH (Jun 21, 2021)

eggy in a bready said:


> this is a public forum and we are free to discuss


Of course. You're free to discuss what you want. I'm not trying impose any rule. I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss sensitive topics, I'm saying that some of the details are way off the topic and purpose of the forum - and not (personally, for some) worth diving very deep into, both because it's not worth the friction with the community over something so far off topic, and because I don't think a guitar forum is, or should be, authoritative on matters of identity or sex or gender or whatever else have you. I'm behind the core message of "everyone is welcome".

Edit:
And I include, in "friction with the community", any sense of not being welcome that might be inadvertently put forward when asking questions. If I have to chose between not bothering asking deeper questions, or contributing how I see things, vs. putting people on edge because they feel like I'm grilling them on who they are - is it not the better choice to err on the side of just leaving people alone?

And I get the potential irony - cause I pop up in these conversations all the time - but I never _start_ the conversation.

Double edit: Cause I do admittedly find the subject interesting.


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## Burgers (Jun 21, 2021)

Idk, I actually clicked on this thread wondering how LGBTQ would tie into music discussion, so props for a thread title that grabbed my attention. TS did technically incorporate music into the initial post but idk how much that matters considering some of the other threads on here, e.g. "maxofmetals post deemed dickish" thread, which TBH left me far more confused and puzzled than this thread, especially about being music related.


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## Randy (Jun 21, 2021)

There now stop arguing if this is on topic FFS


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## Albake21 (Jun 21, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> As trans person I don't agree with this entirely. For me without estrogen in my system my brain literally cannot make happy chemicals. When my system was running on testosterone I was completely miserable and feel 100% disconnected from my body and I'd disassociate every time I'd look in the mirror and it was awful. Some trans people might not identify as trans if it was way more acceptable to just do and wear whatever they wanted and they wouldn't be judged tho and it would be cool if the whole world worked that way.


I fully understand this part of the equation, but what I'm after is the why after that. That's the real question I'm after, at least, psychological. What's the reason for someone, like you, to feel better? Like you said, releasing happy chemicals, assuming you're talking about serotonin or dopamine. 

Typically though, dopamine is created from outside influences. Stuff like drugs, food, entertainment, sex/porn, etc. So something would have to manifest to create a a neural pathway for that dopamine hit. What created that pathway? Outside influences like people, TV, internet? Or is it biology related like some say for gay men and women?

Thanks for sharing on the topic, it's nice to gain more understanding of it.


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## TedEH (Jun 22, 2021)

In retrospect, apologies for derailing.


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## possumkiller (Jun 22, 2021)

I always thought alphabet soup people were Grzegorz Brzeczyszczykiewicz or something like that.


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## High Plains Drifter (Jun 22, 2021)

Only alphabet soup people I ever knew existed...





Everybody else was just cool, unique, interesting, etc... I'm really glad that both my parents raised me to understand that we all have value and that we all need to be respected.


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## Chokey Chicken (Jun 22, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> I fully understand this part of the equation, but what I'm after is the why after that. That's the real question I'm after, at least, psychological. What's the reason for someone, like you, to feel better? Like you said, releasing happy chemicals, assuming you're talking about serotonin or dopamine.
> 
> Typically though, dopamine is created from outside influences. Stuff like drugs, food, entertainment, sex/porn, etc. So something would have to manifest to create a a neural pathway for that dopamine hit. What created that pathway? Outside influences like people, TV, internet? Or is it biology related like some say for gay men and women?
> 
> Thanks for sharing on the topic, it's nice to gain more understanding of it.



For what this is worth, this is why we ventured away from just the rainbow flag. (I think it was you who mentioned that, though I could be wrong. I'd check but my phone is dying.)

Their struggles that they overcome (in this case trans) aren't the same as mine. (Lesbian.) It's worth it to some that they celebrate their own victories. And different groups aren't mutually exclusive. You can fly a trans flag and a pride flag and they both mean something to you. Hell, if you want you can treat it as different states having their own flag. Yeah, I'm American, but I'm also currently in NC.

The same applies with the lgbtq flags. Yeah, someone might be lgbtq, but which part of it are they? I guess it's just a more specific way to celebrate your victories.


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## c7spheres (Jun 22, 2021)

Chokey Chicken said:


> For what this is worth, this is why we ventured away from just the rainbow flag. (I think it was you who mentioned that, though I could be wrong. I'd check but my phone is dying.)
> 
> Their struggles that they overcome (in this case trans) aren't the same as mine. (Lesbian.) It's worth it to some that they celebrate their own victories. And different groups aren't mutually exclusive. You can fly a trans flag and a pride flag and they both mean something to you. Hell, if you want you can treat it as different states having their own flag. Yeah, I'm American, but I'm also currently in NC.
> 
> The same applies with the lgbtq flags. Yeah, someone might be lgbtq, but which part of it are they? I guess it's just a more specific way to celebrate your victories.



I like the way both you and @SexHaver420 communicate with people from what I've seen on this forum, whenever these type subjects come up. - You are both respectful and patient and make good attempts for allowing people to understand "your peoples" (for lack of better words). 
- In all sincerity I think communication like this is key to things getting better. To often people from all sides are quick to anger or to shut out the other, trolling etc. If more people from all types could communicate in this manner I think progess would be much faster and also less hate and violence too. I think this goes for just about anything really, including racial issues as well. 
- I'd personally like to see the Rainbow flag dissociated from the LGBT crowd though, but that's my own issue. I'd like to see any other flag in it's place, tbh. I see black and brown has been added too now so that a start, I guess. 

- Anyways, I just wanted to say kudos to you both. Not that my opinion should hold much weight, but I wanted to put it out there that I appreciate your demeanor and patience. 

- This is all @Gmork fault! : )


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## SexHaver420 (Jun 22, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> I fully understand this part of the equation, but what I'm after is the why after that. That's the real question I'm after, at least, psychological. What's the reason for someone, like you, to feel better? Like you said, releasing happy chemicals, assuming you're talking about serotonin or dopamine.
> 
> Typically though, dopamine is created from outside influences. Stuff like drugs, food, entertainment, sex/porn, etc. So something would have to manifest to create a a neural pathway for that dopamine hit. What created that pathway? Outside influences like people, TV, internet? Or is it biology related like some say for gay men and women?
> 
> Thanks for sharing on the topic, it's nice to gain more understanding of it.



I don't know why it makes me feel better and able to be way happier but it does. No one really knows the answer or the reason people are trans but the best theory I've heard is that it's biological and it's because of hormone levels in the womb. Apparently the body and brain form at different times and the hormone levels determine what biological sex your body will be because everyone starts off as a female so if the hormone levels change a lot stuff can get weird. Stuff like that might also explain why some people are intersex idk I'm not a doctor. My doctor told me he doesn't know what makes people trans but if he gives certain people certain hormones he can see that they look a lot happier and feel better and it's his job as a doctor to help others. If you have any questions about any transgender thing just pm me.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

Gmork said:


> Im a big time lgbtq ally, always have been, always will be and over this past half year or so ive decided to make it more prominent on my social media guitar channels (youtube/insta) in slight concern that ill lose the followers (likely all metalhead types) ive gained over the past 4 or 5 years despite being a pathetic mere 280 subs lol.
> 
> But F it, ya know. If i wouldnt be friends with em in real life why would i want them around my channel. I want it to be welcoming to everyone.
> And no this isnt a situation of bringing "politics" into it as human decency and respect are not political.
> ...




How are you a bigtime lgbtq ally? You forgot the ‘i’ by the way (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer), makes me question whether you truly are a bigtime ally, yet neglect intersex. With global organisations such as JP Morgan Chase Bank, the European Union, the United Nations, etc. as ally’s of the lgbtiq community, you claiming to be an ally is irrelevant on a global scale. On a local scale, there are very few organisations that are not ally’s of the lgbtiq community. With all the business & political influence & support on a local & global scale, you being a bigtime ‘ally’ of the lgbtiq community is irrelevant. If you were not, it makes no difference. So stop embarrassing yourself with your fawning over & shameless promotion of a community you can’t even abbreviate correctly. The last thing that community needs is another bandwagon riding ally. That bandwagon is beyond full, ally.


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## Gmork (Jun 22, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> How are you a bigtime lgbtq ally? You forgot the ‘i’ by the way (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer), makes me question whether you truly are a bigtime ally, yet neglect intersex. With global organisations such as JP Morgan Chase Bank, the European Union, the United Nations, etc. as ally’s of the lgbtiq community, you claiming to be an ally is irrelevant on a global scale. On a local scale, there are very few organisations that are not ally’s of the lgbtiq community. With all the business & political influence & support on a local & global scale, you being a bigtime ‘ally’ of the lgbtiq community is irrelevant. If you were not, it makes no difference. So stop embarrassing yourself with your fawning over & shameless promotion of a community you can’t even abbreviate correctly. The last thing that community needs is another bandwagon riding ally. That bandwagon is beyond full, ally.


LOL, go back to bed mr cranky pants. Btw i "jumped on the band wagon" about 27 years ago lolol


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

Gmork said:


> LOL, go back to bed mr cranky pants. Btw i "jumped on the band wagon" about 27 years ago lolol



Is this how you respond to questioning your motives for promoting your superficial lgbtiq ‘bigtime’ ally status? ‘Go back to bed mr cranky pants’? Do you think this is some sort of joke? This is exactly why the lgbtiq community needs you as a bigtime ‘ally’ like a hole in the head. JPM, bigtime ally. You, an embarrassing, fawning, grovelling, handwringing lgbtiq opportunist desperate for cheap YouTube likes/views flag waving lgbtiq.


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## narad (Jun 22, 2021)

As much as I disdain that one guy for coming on here with obvious hate and that "alphabet people" one-liner, tearing a guy apart for not extending LGBTQ -> LGBTQI / unnecessary divisiveness is really feeding into that types' goals.


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## Randy (Jun 22, 2021)

Something about putting up identity/sexuality positive threads is like a beacon for abrasive weirdo dickheads.


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## Gmork (Jun 22, 2021)

@SoundAsleep7 my motives? Why dont you ask my life time of gay/bi/trans friends who are like family to me what my motives are. Wtf


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

narad said:


> As much as I disdain that one guy for coming on here with obvious hate and that "alphabet people" one-liner, tearing a guy apart for not extending LGBTQ -> LGBTQI / unnecessary divisiveness is really feeding into that types' goals.



An lgbtiq ‘bigtime ally of 27 years’ would include the i. The issue is using that community as click bait for cheap youtube views is shameless self promotion everyone is nauseated by. Particularly the lgbtiq community. Change the record, it’s past it’s expiry & been done to death. Choose another bandwagon to exploit instead of lgbtiq


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

Gmork said:


> @SoundAsleep7 my motives? Why dont you ask my life time of gay/bi/trans friends who are like family to me what my motives are. Wtf



This really isn’t going well for you Gaymork, is it? Handwringing, limp wristed & reaching for token lgbtiq friends & relatives is unconvincing. No one is buying the bigtime ally mantra. You made lgbtiq all about you. Shameless exploitation of a minority community is an absolute disgrace! Shame on you! They real people, not just marketing for cheap clickbait.


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## Randy (Jun 22, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> An lgbtiq ‘bigtime ally of 27 years’ would include the i. The issue is using that community as a click bait for cheap youtube views is shameless self promotion everyone is nauseated by. Particularly the lgbtiq community. Change the record, it’s past it’s expiry & been done to death. Choose another bandwagon to exploit.



Set the arbitrary bar for validation where you choose. I think condensing a person's gender/identity/sexuality down to a single letter within a slew of other letters is minimizing people in an insulting way too but here we are attacking someone for not doing it the way you decided it should be done.

I'm the meantime, you can disagree with the OP or their motives in starting this thread or whatever without demeaning them in this way. Everyone besides you and Heinrich over there has been just fine debating eachother with some civility, regardless of where we fall in the spectrum of this subject. I have no fuckin clue who you are to come in and attack this person or anyone else as insincere as if you're the authority on what is and isn't legitimate inclusion.


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## Gmork (Jun 22, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> This really isn’t going well for you Gaymork, is it? Handwriting, limp wristed & reaching for token lgbtiq friends & relatives is not convincing. No one is buying the bigtime ally routine.


 whatever lol


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

It 


Randy said:


> Something about putting up identity/sexuality positive threads is like a beacon for abrasive weirdo dickheads.



it sure is Randy, it sure is. It’s clearly attracted you so what does that say?


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

Randy said:


> Set the arbitrary bar for validation where you choose. I think condensing a person's gender/identity/sexuality down to a single letter within a slew of other letters is minimizing people in an insulting way too but here we are attacking someone for not doing it the way you decided it should be done.
> 
> I'm the meantime, you can disagree with the OP or their motives in starting this thread or whatever without demeaning them in this way. Everyone besides you and Heinrich over there has been just fine debating eachother with some civility, regardless of where we fall in the spectrum of this subject. I have no fuckin clue who you are to come in and attack this person or anyone else as insincere as if you're the authority on what is and isn't legitimate inclusion.



Oh Randy, i’m not attacking anyone. Im pointing out gaymork is being disingenuous in promoting lgbtiq. It’s all about his clickbait & using this minority community as a marketing tool which is very, very ugly & very weak.

Ps. Who made you the arbiter of all things lgbtiq? Who made anyone that? If others can self appoint, then so can I. No one can say otherwise.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 22, 2021)

Gmork said:


> whatever lol



Good luck with your lgbtiq profiteering racket. You are going to need it!


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## narad (Jun 22, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> Oh Randy, i’m not attacking anyone. Im pointing out gaymork is being disingenuous on promoting lgbtiq. It’s all about his clickbait & using this minority community as a marketing tool which is very, very ugly & very weak.



Honestly it doesn't seem worth the time to make the video that way for the like 300 views and 0 moneys this thread is going to bring in, if he didn't feel genuinely connection and support for that community. Just my reading. 

But if I'm going to make assumptions I'd like to assume he's planted as by the right-wing conservative community in a false flag op to sow conflict within the lgbtqi community, because at least that's more interesting.


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## Gmork (Jun 22, 2021)

@SoundAsleep7 i suppose i shouldnt be mad. You just dont know me. Simple as that. Youre just spewing an endless stream of assumptions. I guess in a crazy way its pretty cool if your intentions are to call someone out who you believe to be exploiting that group. If youre just defending them then awesome, but if youre wrong, well then what? Or are you never wrong?


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## Gmork (Jun 23, 2021)

And narad has a point. What in the world do you think i expect to gain on my 280 sub channel from starting this thread??
Literally the only thing im trying to accomplish is making it known that im a nice person, an ally to... ANYONE.. EVERYONE that isnt a piece of shit, and that for any people who are targets of hate, violence and negativity or whatrver, that I and whatever im involved in whether it be my bands or channels, my actual personal presence, my home... Are 100% safe places where i dont put up with any shit and they are way more than welcome. 
Just like i always have. 
I cant stop you from thinking and assuming what you want but im done


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 23, 2021)

I'm not trying to be obtuse but I watched your video a couple of times and I'm trying to figure out what is "LGBTQ positive" about it aside from the hashtag. I see some people kissing but their gender/sexuality is not readily apparent if it is meant to be. A suggestion: Since your channel is about gear, you could consider things like highlighting products from LGBTQ+ builders. That would be using your platform to directly support people's struggles.

Regardless, I am glad for this thread and the necessary discussion it opens within this community. Contrary to what is often insisted, rock, metal, and guitar/amp/gear communities are often perceived as very unwelcoming by people who don't fit the mold.

There is a long history of non cis white men being directly or indirectly ostracized from the above communities, so whatever our estimation of our own communities, the fact remains that they are not as inclusive in others' lived experiences as we would like to believe. That alone means there is a lot of work to be done if we are legitimately invested in the business of making our communities welcoming to all. Anything that fails to address the lived experiences of marginalized people is just lip service.

It's clear from this thread that there is a diverse community on SSO, but it's not remotely a stretch to say that the population here and in the above-mentioned subcultures generally is primarily composed of cis white men. To illustrate, white supremacists use punk and metal to recruit people. This is neither accident nor coincidence, pretending otherwise is to stick our heads collectively in the sand.

There are a lot of people out there who associate metal and nazis directly. If you're not down with that it's on you to be the counter example, and simply not-being-a-nazi (or misogynist/homophobe/whatever) ins't nearly enough because if you say and do nothing it means the people who are talking have the floor, and those people are nazis.

TL;DR
A community ins't inclusive just because everyone who's already a part of it says so.

Edit: In case it is unclear, none of this is targeted at any individual (save where I addressed the OP directly), and is more meant as an open letter, or even perhaps a love letter, to broader communities that this forum intersects with.


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## Gmork (Jun 23, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I'm not trying to be obtuse but I watched your video a couple of times and I'm trying to figure out what is "LGBTQ positive" about it aside from the hashtag. I see some people kissing but their gender/sexuality is not readily apparent if it is meant to be. A suggestion: Since your channel is about gear, you could consider things like highlighting products from LGBTQ+ builders. That would be using your platform to directly support people's struggles.
> 
> Regardless, I am glad for this thread and the necessary discussion it opens within this community. Contrary to what is often insisted, rock, metal, and guitar/amp/gear communities are often perceived as very unwelcoming by people who don't fit the mold.
> 
> ...


Honestly i didnt think things through too much, but i just figured by having pretty blatant clips of homosexuality/love and positive inter-racial relations that itd be like waving a flag to any viewers and saying LOOK! im totally comfortable and down with alternative lifestyles/love etc. WELCOME! NO BIGOTRY HERE!

Because youre right... People looking in from outside of the metal scene dont see what we think and know to be a generally safe, accepting and welcoming place/scene.

That thought (though always more on a personal level) has always bothered me. I want to try to make it obvious that im safe, accepting and welcoming and im just trying to take my clumsy steps towards that. And im honestly really sorry if ive offended anyone. Im always willing to listen and learn and be better.


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## narad (Jun 23, 2021)

Gmork said:


> Honestly i didnt think things through too much, but i just figured by having pretty blatant clips of homosexuality/love and positive inter-racial relations that itd be like waving a flag to any viewers and saying LOOK! im totally comfortable and down with alternative lifestyles/love etc. WELCOME! NO BIGOTRY HERE!
> 
> Because youre right... People looking in from outside of the metal scene dont see what we think and know to be a generally safe, accepting and welcoming place/scene.
> 
> That thought (though always more on a personal level) has always bothered me. I want to try to make it obvious that im safe, accepting and welcoming and im just trying to take my clumsy steps towards that. And im honestly really sorry if ive offended anyone. Im always willing to listen and learn and be better.



Yea, I sort of agree with @wheresthefbomb -- I kind of found it an odd mix of imagery / music / pedal demo, etc. The connections weren't clear, and that may have triggered SoundAsleep into questioning your motivations. I think pedal demos from lgbtq+ builders, as suggested, would be more targeted. Or that imagery within like a music video for your stuff, if related to the music/lyrics, separate from pedal demos. If there was a solid lgbtq+ message there, it was kind of diluted by the other things the video was supposed to be.


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## Flappydoodle (Jun 23, 2021)

Chokey Chicken said:


> This is ultimately the end goal. Unfortunately we can't get there without talking about/normalizing it. A lot of people are finally getting some semblance of a normal and happy life after decades and decades of being shunned. So people get excited when they get to experience "normal" things.
> 
> I look forward to the day a dude can kiss another dude on the cheek as they part ways, or any number of similar normal interactions between people who love each other, and people just don't care. I can't wait for it to just not be news every time an "alphabet soup person" (sorry, that term makes my queer ass laugh) does something normal.
> 
> One day, hopefully sooner than later. For now all I can say is that I feel a lot more comfortable now than I did back in high school, so there's been big change in recent years. Which is great, and because people are vocal about their support.



I really don't believe this to be the case. Firstly, in many (most) areas of the world, public displays of affection are not looked upon favourably, even between men and women. It's uncommon in East Asia, frowned upon in SE Asia, and obviously highly controversial in most of the Middle East. But in the US, UK or Europe, the number of people who would object to a dude kissing another dude on the cheek is pretty small.

But the reason people make remarks about "alphabet soup people" is because it's getting a bit ridiculous now, and it's moving beyond simple "acceptance". Hell, someone in this thread earlier boasted about deliberately being as obnoxiously gay/camp as possibly just to fuck with straight people and make them uncomfortable. That's not very productive, right? Unfortunately it starts to look like the LGBTQ+ "movement" is wanting more than acceptance - now they're demanding total compliance. I imagine that a lot of gay people probably also don't support it. Certainly, my few gay friends also agree that a lot of the "alphabet soup" stuff has become ridiculous and has gone far beyond the "normal" that you mention.

To keep it relevant to this thread, personally I don't really care who people want to bang, but I'm not going to go out of my way to be "an ally" to some movement either, because there's a lot of it that I don't support. I'll enjoy music by whomever, but I don't really want it served with a strong side of political identity/ideology. I also don't see the general public having a problem being fans of gay musicians either - Elton John, Freddy Mercury, Rob Halford, George Michael, David Bowie, Lady Gaga etc.


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## Gmork (Jun 23, 2021)

narad said:


> Yea, I sort of agree with @wheresthefbomb -- I kind of found it an odd mix of imagery / music / pedal demo, etc. The connections weren't clear, and that may have triggered SoundAsleep into questioning your motivations. I think pedal demos from lgbtq+ builders, as suggested, would be more targeted. Or that imagery within like a music video for your stuff, if related to the music/lyrics, separate from pedal demos. If there was a solid lgbtq+ message there, it was kind of diluted by the other things the video was supposed to be.


I couldn't agree more.. Very clumsy on my behalf. I wish i would have just taken a moment and thought about it a sec because yeah.. It IS a weird combination and weird way to incorporate something like that. I guess though, that its the only place that has any sort of audience, its strangely become my main little musical outlet. 

Id like to hope that the discussions held here that WERE civil hold some worth to people and/or even did the tiniest bit of good, but ill definitely be thinking twice before bringing this topic up again. I have to remember that no one out there knows me, and even if i mean well it wont always be seen that way and can even get turned right the fuk around.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 23, 2021)

In an effort to tear down structures that enforce gender norms, it can be argued that policing allies to conform to a narrow set of norms is unproductive.


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## TedEH (Jun 23, 2021)

Well this thread has gone places since I left.



Flappydoodle said:


> now they're demanding total compliance


I think I get what you're going for (and I realize that I probably look like I flip-flop all over the place with the angles I approach the thread at) but compliance with what, exactly? There aren't exactly "rules" or "demands" being brought upon people. The only thing I think there's any real need to "comply" with is not being a dick to people, whether you agree with their worldview or lifestyle etc., or not.

I'm with you in a sense that I'm sometimes not a fan of the way that activism tends to try to provoke change by playing with semantics and shaping narratives and occasionally bullying people and mocking those who aren't "with it" or "woke" or what have you - all the arguing over "no MY definition is the right one", "no MY abbreviation is more inclusive", "no YOU don't understand what gender_ reaaally is"_, sometimes feels inane to me in the moment-to-moment arguments, and I'm not so sure I'm convinced that "cancelling" is just "the consequences of being a terrible person". If you go searching for infighting and drama, you'll certainly find it. But at the same time, how else exactly do you change public opinion? If your goal is to normalize something or to try to shape the way people think about and talk about things, I don't know how else you'd do it. Sure, not everyone "likes" how progress is made, but whether or not we like it isn't the point.


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## Albake21 (Jun 23, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> How are you a bigtime lgbtq ally? You forgot the ‘i’ by the way (lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, intersex, queer), makes me question whether you truly are a bigtime ally, yet neglect intersex. With global organisations such as JP Morgan Chase Bank, the European Union, the United Nations, etc. as ally’s of the lgbtiq community, you claiming to be an ally is irrelevant on a global scale. On a local scale, there are very few organisations that are not ally’s of the lgbtiq community. With all the business & political influence & support on a local & global scale, you being a bigtime ‘ally’ of the lgbtiq community is irrelevant. If you were not, it makes no difference. So stop embarrassing yourself with your fawning over & shameless promotion of a community you can’t even abbreviate correctly. The last thing that community needs is another bandwagon riding ally. That bandwagon is beyond full, ally.


This right here. THIS is the kind of behavior I was specifically talking about on my first post to this thread. You expect people to get on the same page as the LGBT group, but when people spew shit like this, acting like you're a piece of shit for not getting the letters correct, yeah that's why I don't bother with social groups. I support the person, not the group for this very reason.


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## wheresthefbomb (Jun 23, 2021)

narad said:


> The connections weren't clear, and that may have triggered SoundAsleep into questioning your motivations.





Albake21 said:


> This right here. THIS is the kind of behavior I was specifically talking about on my first post to this thread.



In Gmork's defense (and really, in everyone's) it seems pretty obvious that SoundAsleep is arguing in bad faith here. If the stream of alt right talking points and homophobic dogwhistling wasn't a dead giveaway, using "gay" as a slur most certainly was. Also, the idea that a company worth billions of dollars is doing anything but naked virtue signaling by putting rainbows on stuff is laughable. If JPMorganChase started giving free houses to homeless trans teenagers this might be a little more tenable. Maybe.

Anyway, I would caution you, @Albake21, not to take anything they said as being indicative of your concerns, or anything at all, except their being a jerkass with too much free time.

If anything, this thread stands as a testament to the opposite of your concerns, at least within the context of this forum. LGBTQ+ forum members have shown up to voice their gratitude for Gmork's efforts and been incredibly patient with the at-times fumbling attempts of the community to understand.


Edit: I hope some of y'all will take a moment to consider why you were so eager to take the obvious troll's obvious bait. What's that about?


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## StevenC (Jun 23, 2021)

Albake21 said:


> This right here. THIS is the kind of behavior I was specifically talking about on my first post to this thread. You expect people to get on the same page as the LGBT group, but when people spew shit like this, acting like you're a piece of shit for not getting the letters correct, yeah that's why I don't bother with social groups. I support the person, not the group for this very reason.


Yeah, SoundAsleep7 is very clearly trying to denigrate Gmork by comparing them to corporate virtue signalling and manufacture an argument. Literally nobody cares what letters you use if you support people and their right to their identity. 

SoundAsleep7 is also using homophobic slurs, because they don't have a horse in this race and just want to sling shit in hopes of stalling a movement about human rights for people they don't like.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 23, 2021)

In spite of his bigoted comments, everyone is trying to be polite to @SoundAsleep7 and I'm just over here like...


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## narad (Jun 23, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> Edit: I hope some of y'all will take a moment to consider why you were so eager to take the obvious troll's obvious bait. What's that about?



That's kind of our thing here.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

narad said:


> Honestly it doesn't seem worth the time to make the video that way for the like 300 views and 0 moneys this thread is going to bring in, if he didn't feel genuinely connection and support for that community. Just my reading.
> 
> But if I'm going to make assumptions I'd like to assume he's planted as by the right-wing conservative community in a false flag op to sow conflict within the lgbtqi community, because at least that's more interesting.



i like your paranoid tinfoil hat response Narad. I suppose Covid doesn’t exist?


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

Gmork said:


> @SoundAsleep7 i suppose i shouldnt be mad. You just dont know me. Simple as that. Youre just spewing an endless stream of assumptions. I guess in a crazy way its pretty cool if your intentions are to call someone out who you believe to be exploiting that group. If youre just defending them then awesome, but if youre wrong, well then what? Or are you never wrong?



Thank you Gaymork, my intentions are to call out homophobia wherever it exists, even in amateur sub 300 view you tube snuff videos


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

Gmork said:


> And narad has a point. What in the world do you think i expect to gain on my 280 sub channel from starting this thread??
> Literally the only thing im trying to accomplish is making it known that im a nice person, an ally to... ANYONE.. EVERYONE that isnt a piece of shit, and that for any people who are targets of hate, violence and negativity or whatrver, that I and whatever im involved in whether it be my bands or channels, my actual personal presence, my home... Are 100% safe places where i dont put up with any shit and they are way more than welcome.
> Just like i always have.
> I cant stop you from thinking and assuming what you want but im done



Unfortunately for you, Gaymork, you didn’t mention being a bigtime ally to ANYONE in your comments or videos, just lgbtq (no i).


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## narad (Jun 23, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> i like your paranoid tinfoil hat response Narad. I suppose Covid doesn’t exist?



As long as you remember to put the "i" in covid, I'm okay with whatever you believe about it.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

Gmork said:


> Honestly i didnt think things through too much, but i just figured by having pretty blatant clips of homosexuality/love and positive inter-racial relations that itd be like waving a flag to any viewers and saying LOOK! im totally comfortable and down with alternative lifestyles/love etc. WELCOME! NO BIGOTRY HERE!
> 
> Because youre right... People looking in from outside of the metal scene dont see what we think and know to be a generally safe, accepting and welcoming place/scene.
> 
> That thought (though always more on a personal level) has always bothered me. I want to try to make it obvious that im safe, accepting and welcoming and im just trying to take my clumsy steps towards that. And im honestly really sorry if ive offended anyone. Im always willing to listen and learn and be better.



All I’m asking for Gaymork is that you attain permission from the lgbtiq community before you use their brand.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

narad said:


> Yea, I sort of agree with @wheresthefbomb -- I kind of found it an odd mix of imagery / music / pedal demo, etc. The connections weren't clear, and that may have triggered SoundAsleep into questioning your motivations. I think pedal demos from lgbtq+ builders, as suggested, would be more targeted. Or that imagery within like a music video for your stuff, if related to the music/lyrics, separate from pedal demos. If there was a solid lgbtq+ message there, it was kind of diluted by the other things the video was supposed to be.



Exactly. Someone finally understands. At least cite your branding & marketing when promoting the gay amps & pedals. Trademarks etc


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> In an effort to tear down structures that enforce gender norms, it can be argued that policing allies to conform to a narrow set of norms is unproductive.



it can be argued, yet ally loyalty is far more important than lgbtiq flag waving for cheap clickbait views from a tacky lgbtiq hashtag


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## StevenC (Jun 23, 2021)

You can just press "+ QUOTE" on all the posts you want to reply to instead of making more of a mess.

What is it with bigots and technophobia?


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## narad (Jun 23, 2021)

StevenC said:


> You can just press "+ QUOTE" on all the posts you want to reply to instead of making more of a mess.
> 
> What is it with bigots and technophobia?



The most offensive things in this thread are grunge in 2021 and an inability to multi-quote.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

ArtDecade said:


> In spite of his bigoted comments, everyone is trying to be polite to @SoundAsleep7 and I'm just over here like...



Bigoted comments? If someone is not willing to put the ‘i’ in lgbtiq, then I’m not going to sit by & watch this injustice


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## SexHaver420 (Jun 23, 2021)

People really be out here getting trolled by this @SoundAsleep7 guy lol.


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## SoundAsleep7 (Jun 23, 2021)

narad said:


> As long as you remember to put the "i" in covid, I'm okay with whatever you believe about it.



That’s a false equivalence. Putting the i in covid doesn’t represent an entirely disadvantaged marginalised intersection of the lgbtiq community, not that you care.


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## MFB (Jun 23, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> That’s a false equivalence. Putting the i in covid doesn’t represent an entirely disadvantaged marginalised intersection of the lgbtiq community, not that you care.



Considering I've never even seen the acronym include the "i" until your post, I think those of the intersex (I may already be forgetting what it is, which seems like it could've already fallen under the + portion, but what do I know) are already marginalized at a larger scale.

Hell, for all I know it could be a red herring and not even be a "real version" used to test who actually knows what the acronym is.


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## Kovah (Jun 23, 2021)

Flappydoodle said:


> I really don't believe this to be the case. Firstly, in many (most) areas of the world, public displays of affection are not looked upon favourably, even between men and women. It's uncommon in East Asia, frowned upon in SE Asia, and obviously highly controversial in most of the Middle East. But in the US, UK or Europe, the number of people who would object to a dude kissing another dude on the cheek is pretty small.
> 
> But the reason people make remarks about "alphabet soup people" is because it's getting a bit ridiculous now, and it's moving beyond simple "acceptance". Hell, someone in this thread earlier boasted about deliberately being as obnoxiously gay/camp as possibly just to fuck with straight people and make them uncomfortable. That's not very productive, right? Unfortunately it starts to look like the LGBTQ+ "movement" is wanting more than acceptance - now they're demanding total compliance. I imagine that a lot of gay people probably also don't support it. Certainly, my few gay friends also agree that a lot of the "alphabet soup" stuff has become ridiculous and has gone far beyond the "normal" that you mention.
> 
> To keep it relevant to this thread, personally I don't really care who people want to bang, but I'm not going to go out of my way to be "an ally" to some movement either, because there's a lot of it that I don't support. I'll enjoy music by whomever, but I don't really want it served with a strong side of political identity/ideology. I also don't see the general public having a problem being fans of gay musicians either - Elton John, Freddy Mercury, Rob Halford, George Michael, David Bowie, Lady Gaga etc.



Couldn't have phrased it better. No one cares who you're getting of with. Defining yourself solely through your sexuality is getting old.

By the way, what the fuck is a LGBTQ+ pedal builder? What does gender/sexuality have to do with building pedals?


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## TedEH (Jun 23, 2021)

SoundAsleep7 said:


> my intentions are to call out homophobia wherever it exists





SoundAsleep7 said:


> Gaymork


Oh hello Pot, have you met my friend Kettle?


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## Albake21 (Jun 23, 2021)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I hope some of y'all will take a moment to consider why you were so eager to take the obvious troll's obvious bait. What's that about?


Because what this "troll" has spewed is something that genuinely goes on in the community. Hell, it goes on in any social community now a days. It's like a fucking popularity contest about themselves rather than actually helping the cause. I'm by no means saying they represent the groups, just giving reasons as to why people shy away from them, myself included.


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## Randy (Jun 23, 2021)

I don't think it's an accident that bigots kamikaze threads like these that exist to promote positivity and conversation, so that they become overrun with hatred and turmoil. Deliberately derail any proactive discuss until the whole thing becomes about them or becomes too toxic to stay open.

Mission accomplished guys, good work.


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