# Blackmachine Origin Questions



## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

before I'm bombarded with neg rep, banned, flamed, or whatever else may come in advance with the discussion of these guitars, I'd like to state a succinct and clear purpose for the opening of this thread,

I've corresponded with Doug about the purchase of a B6, and being a minor, a purchase of this magnitude requires discussion with the powers that be. I have a few questions, not an intent to stir the pot, incite a copymachine rant, or cause trouble for anyone.

that said, 

Does anyone with actual purchasing or conversational history with Doug know when he started building guitars? Where or how he learned to build guitars? In essence, what *from firsthand, quantifiable, and actual* experience with him and his work differentiates him from say, Skervesen, Blackwater, etc? Not to blaspheme or condescend, but explaining the difference in perceived build quality and "which came first" to non musicians, let alone those outside of this and the progressive metal community is an arduous task. This is additionally something I personally have little experience in dealing with as well. A byproduct of the minimalist website and hype surrounding these instruments is the lack of substantiated information. Misha has answered something similar to this on formspring, but I was unable to successfully locate that post. The search function didn't find me the answer I was looking for either. I know he's based out of the UK, and is devoted to the quality of his instruments above anything else, but everything else is of vague foundation to me and in a persuasive context.



EDIT: sorry about the incorrect original subforum, mods


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## leonardo7 (Mar 23, 2013)

Where is the hype? A custom Blackmachine used to cost 3K. At that price you generally didn't get as good an instrument elsewhere, therefore they were praised as sounding awesome, being amazing and innovative, and extremely well priced at that.

Wood selection is on point. Detail is on point. Fretwork is on point. Chambering is on point. Thin body is on point. No gloss and no thick paint is on point. Headstock design is on point. Overall looks are on point. Fretboard radius is on point. Smaller rear cavity is on point.

The only reason the price is so high is because the availability is low. That statement has nothing to do with quality or if its worth it. Its a blunt statement as to why the prices are so high. Thats all there is too it. They are amazing and innovative guitars.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Where is the hype? A custom Blackmachine used to cost 3K. At that price you generally didn't get as good an instrument elsewhere, therefore they were praised as sounding awesome, being amazing and innovative, and extremely well priced at that.
> 
> Wood selection is on point. Detail is on point. Fretwork is on point. Chambering is on point. Thin body is on point. No gloss and no thick paint is on point. Headstock design is on point. Overall looks are on point. Fretboard radius is on point. Smaller rear cavity is on point.
> 
> The only reason the price is so high is because the availability is low. That statement has nothing to do with quality or if its worth it. Its a blunt statement as to why the prices are so high. Thats all there is too it. They are amazing and innovative guitars.




Thank you for your response, this is precisely the sort of response and person to respond I was looking for.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 23, 2013)

They were very cheap before 07-08ish


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> They were very cheap before 07-08ish



So I have heard. does anyone know when he started building? even just a timeframe.


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## sakeido (Mar 23, 2013)

he's been at it iirc 15 years 



leonardo7 said:


> Thats all there is too it. They are amazing and innovative guitars.



no they aren't, and they sure as hell aren't innovative either

there is nothing that sets a blackmachine apart from other similar custom guitars other than the looks. they play like jacksons, with an ibanez S series body except not as thin at the edges, RG horns, pretty much an AANJ heel. fretwork is great but you'd expect that of any guitar worth more than $2,500. tonally they sound like a good guitar with bareknuckles in em.


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## Bodes (Mar 23, 2013)

Never played one, but they do look amazing. There is a reason everyone wants to borrow ideas from him.

If you are asking about pricing compared to quality look in this thread:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/luthiery-modifications-customizations/113913-why-guitars-cost-what-they-do.html

I read it a few times before placing my first custom order recently.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Mar 23, 2013)

A chambered RG is innovative?


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## infernalservice (Mar 23, 2013)

I had never even heard of BM until joining this forum. I played one very briefly maybe 2 years ago, and feel like it was comparable to an rg in most aspects, at least feel wise. It had an ash body (iirc), which for the most part was the biggest departure for me.


Side note: I think Paul Shreed Smith has a flow to it.


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## Hollowway (Mar 23, 2013)

OP, I think this is just like anything, brand-wise. You'll find people extolling the virtues of any number of boutique builders, depending on who you talk with. SSO is very pro-Balckmachine. Maybe over at mylesspaul or something like that they'd steer you elsewhere. I think it would be like considering a BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, Lotus, etc. I'm making this assumption having never played a BM, but also knowing most of the people you hear talking about how great they are have also never played them.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 23, 2013)

Yeah, over at The Gear Page a few people that previously owned them were saying they are nothing special and were kind of bad. But I think those were older models.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

Hollowway said:


> OP, I think this is just like anything, brand-wise. You'll find people extolling the virtues of any number of boutique builders, depending on who you talk with. SSO is very pro-Balckmachine. Maybe over at mylesspaul or something like that they'd steer you elsewhere. I think it would be like considering a BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Porsche, Lotus, etc. I'm making this assumption having never played a BM, but also knowing most of the people you hear talking about how great they are have also never played them.



that's exactly I was looking for legitimate commentary from owners only. (in most cases, this was adhered to ) I can search and find hundreds of posts about how a blackmachine is the holy grail.. from members who owns a rg7321 and a POD. I haven't played one either, but i'm close to purchasing one, (hopefully) and rehashed misconceptions aren't helpful in any case. your post is appreciated though!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 23, 2013)

Well I've played a b6 a ton, I think I would buy one for 3000 USD but anything more and I'd probably get something else. The ViK I had was a better instrument, but the B6 is still a bit better than a Suhr.


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## Watty (Mar 23, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> I've corresponded with Doug about the purchase of a B6, and being a minor, a purchase of this magnitude requires discussion with the powers that be.



A) How did you actually get him to reply to you? I've inquired several times and got nothing but silence in reply.

B) If you have to involve your parents in the purchase, is it really something you should be considering given your age?


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

Watty said:


> A) How did you actually get him to reply to you? I've inquired several times and got nothing but silence in reply.
> 
> B) If you have to involve your parents in the purchase, is it really something you should be considering given your age?




A. Instead of asking for him to build me a guitar and throwing money at the process, I told him about my musical history, what I'd use it for, and why I planned to use it as a main instrument instead of just a horse in the stable.

B. I have a job and enough funds to cover the price he quoted upfront. My financial account is linked to theirs, and I would consider it a common courtesy and logical decision to explain why a few thousand dollars disappeared from my balance. please don't assume.


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## Adrian-XI (Mar 23, 2013)

Edit: disregard


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## leonardo7 (Mar 23, 2013)

sakeido said:


> he's been at it iirc 15 years
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Captain Butterscotch said:


> A chambered RG is innovative?



Here we go 

Maybe not as thin as an S series at the edges but still alot thinner at the center. Blackmachines have flat tops. Also, Jacksons have a compound 12"-16" fretboard radius and Ibanez has 16". Blackmachines have a flat fretboard radius. Huge difference in playability for me personally.

The body outline shapes are similar, but my B7 doesnt fit into my molded RG Prestige case, its slightly wider at the horns and wont fit the mold. More about picky details in the shape, the Ibanez lower horn is sharp whereas the B7 is not. Both B7 horns are more round. In addition, the Blackmachine has these unique bevels carved into the underside edge of the body as well as the top edge around where the forearm rests.
Blackmachine is .5" shorter from nut to end of body at strap pin so the body is .5" shorter. Not to mention the extreme differences in headstock design. Blackmachines are always reverse too.
RG body thickness is 1.75"
Blackmachine body thickness is 1.37", almost a half inch
Ebony fretboard
Ebony top
Rosewood neck
Hardtail
Smaller rear cavity 

That headstock, beveling, thin body, chambered body, slightly shorter body, supreme wood selections, smaller rear cavity, ebony fretboard, ebony top, rosewood neck, ABM single string saddles or Schaller Hannes bridge, flat fretboard radius, no gloss and no paint are enough to put my Blackmachine into a league all its own. There is without question something special when I pick up my Blackmachine B7. I have never felt like I was playing an Ibanez or a Jackson. Just saying.




infernalservice said:


> I had never even heard of BM until joining this forum. I played one very briefly maybe 2 years ago, and feel like it was comparable to an rg in most aspects, at least feel wise. It had an ash body (iirc), which for the most part was the biggest departure for me.



We are lucky to have this forum as a way to know about Blackmachines. Doug doesn't promote whatsoever. 

Surely the smaller and lighter body/neck as well as flat fretboard radius made some difference in terms of feel? Also, was it a B6 or B2? We all know the B6 is a production Blackmachine not hand made by Doug.


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 23, 2013)

^ To be completely fair, most players aren't going to notice those differences besides the tonewoods affecting the tone. And the flatter radius when you compare it to something like an Ibanez.

To me it's nothing innovative, it's just improving on small things most manufactures refuse to address unless there's an actual overwhelming response to said issue from a large portion of their customer base. So I'm going to have to agree with Captain Butterscotch, it's seriously not as innovative as many people choose to put it. In a sense Doug puts enough thought into these things that the small changes to a very common design (superstrat) makes it the perfect guitar, but innovative is not the word I'd use for that. To me innovation comes in the form of things like a compensated nut, True Temperament Frets, Evertune's Bridge system. Those are things I count as innovation, but B6's and B2's are extremely reminiscent to an Ibanez RG, you can't tell me they don't share some similarities. 

Like I've said before, I've only laid hands on B6 Blackmachines and they were great, played really well, and sounded incredible. But I don't see how someone can throw down 3k+ for a guitar that from a specs standpoint is very basic for something like attention to detail. Speaking for no specific luthier in particular, certainly not Doug, when someone pays for what a luthier says is part of a process of theirs or that person promising extreme attention to detail is just that, a word. I have a wonderful tech in my area who can make a sub par LTD and Mid Range Ibanez feel and play like something in the range of a 2-3k guitar. So I find the reasoning that a high price tag ensures build quality and attention to detail to be such a ridiculous thing to inflate the price of an instrument to. But that is just my opinion, something like that carries little weight to me from a luthier, I think when I invest money into an instrument I believe most of it will come from the material's cost, and the hardware, and definitely a large portion of it going to getting said service from said luthier, but not 2000-3000$ dedicated to that alone if that makes sense.

OP for someone so young, you're carrying yourself very well and seem to be very responsible. Regardless really think through about this purchase and what it means to lay down a couple thousand dollars on an instrument. I've had some friends make some large purchases even at the age of 16 and see something like a physical accident that requires you have the finances for something like a medical bill. God forbid it happens, but if you don't already have some money set aside besides for the funding for your guitar, please do and start. Can't tell you how nice it is living knowing you have a cushion to fall on in case your car breaks down, or you break your leg for some reason.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

Kenji20022 said:


> ^ To be completely fair, most players aren't going to notice those differences besides the tonewoods affecting the tone. And the flatter radius when you compare it to something like an Ibanez.
> 
> To me it's nothing innovative, it's just improving on small things most manufactures refuse to address unless there's an actual overwhelming response to said issue from a large portion of their customer base. So I'm going to have to agree with Captain Butterscotch, it's seriously not as innovative as many people choose to put it. In a sense Doug puts enough thought into these things that the small changes to a very common design (superstrat) makes it the perfect guitar, but innovative is not the word I'd use for that. To me innovation comes in the form of things like a compensated nut, True Temperament Frets, Evertune's Bridge system. Those are things I count as innovation, but B6's and B2's are extremely reminiscent to an Ibanez RG, you can't tell me they don't share some similarities.
> 
> ...



I've had the money set aside, and I'm not infringing upon day to day funds in order to make that happen. car is taken care of as well. thank you for your response.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 23, 2013)

^^ OP can EASILY dump the BM if he needs to. It would be a joke to sell in a day or two.


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## crg123 (Mar 23, 2013)

^ +1 on that. People would jump all over it on here haha.


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## redstone (Mar 23, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Here we go
> 
> Blackmachines have a flat fretboard radius.



Never heard of that. Pics or it didn't happen.

Just RG clones with a parker headstock, a very thin body and a distinctive pseudo-arm cut.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Mar 23, 2013)

redstone said:


> Never heard of that. Pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> Just RG clones with a parker headstock, a very thin body and a distinctive pseudo-arm cut.



No, Doug actually has a secret juice that he rubs into the wood at exactly midnight every winter solstice. There are so few because he has to use the extract from a flower that only grows on the dirt that has gathered on Bigfoot's back. You can easily see why this would be a challenge.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

redstone said:


> Never heard of that. Pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> Just RG clones with a parker headstock, a very thin body and a distinctive pseudo-arm cut.




I dig RGs, slices taken out of my headstock(s), and oiled bodies. perfect.


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## Watty (Mar 23, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> A. Instead of asking for him to build me a guitar and throwing money at the process, I told him about my musical history, what I'd use it for, and why I planned to use it as a main instrument instead of just a horse in the stable.



I wasn't aware that was a pre-requisite to even get a response period. I've sent a few emails, but they were never worded in such a way as to indicate anything like what you specified (in the negative sense).



Paul Reed Shred said:


> B. I have a job and enough funds to cover the price he quoted upfront. My financial account is linked to theirs, and I would consider it a common courtesy and logical decision to explain why a few thousand dollars disappeared from my balance. please don't assume.



What else can we do than assume if you don't state that. Not saying that you should have, but you made it sound like it required their approval and their money, not just that you had a linked account and considered it a courtesy notification.

Regardless, I suppose I can hope that you get one to try and proceed to offer your opinion on whether or not they're all they're cracked up to be.


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## AwDeOh (Mar 23, 2013)

I thought Doug wasn't taking orders at the moment anyhow?


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## StevenC (Mar 23, 2013)

This is coming from having talked to Doug and played his guitars. He is a fabulous luthier who really cares about his instruments and a really nice guy. But he broke a string on my guitar, so I don't trust him

@leonardo7

While I agree totally that BMs have something very special about them, greater than the sum of their parts, yadda yadda, those things have all been done before Doug came along. If he was the first to put it all together that's about the only innovation, which considering the copying trend may have been more of an influence. What seems to be the defining characteristic for BMs is how well built they are and if it's innovative to do things right, we must have been in a sorry state before.
I don't mean anything against the guitars, quite the opposite in fact. They are definitely in a league of their own but not for innovation. For simply being fantastic instruments, as you well know from owning one.

On topic:

I have seen guitars as early as 95 claimed to be his and he definitely put a lot of work in over a long period of time before finalising the B2 design. The latter part is directly from him and I have witnesses to that. I guess it's not unreasonable to think he built guitars before the B2, so I'd say it was at least 15 years as someone else said. Maybe 15 years since the B2, I don't know. I've seen many guitars labeled as the first blackmachine.
If Doug is letting B6s have the blackmachine name, then I'm sure they deserve it; and if they are anything like the B2, then you will not be disappointed. I hope I have been of some help


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

steve_k said:


> I am all about wood selection, quality construction, components, action, rarity and all that - and willing to pay up for it. But, at the end of the day, it is a guitar with a bolt-on neck. I would have a hard time spending over 3K on that, unless I am missing something here.
> 
> Steve



Not to open this up for discussion, but i have a hard time understand why you would put guitars from say, Suhr, Anderson, Conklin, Jackson CS, Strandberg, and a litany of others as being unworthy of a 3k+ pricetag merely for having bolt on necks


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## tmfrank (Mar 23, 2013)

I think you're better off just getting a Skervesen that looks like a Blackmachine. Who cares whether it's quality, I mean look at that headstock right?!

Sarcasm intended, for the people who couldn't see the implication


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## leonardo7 (Mar 23, 2013)

Here I go again. 

If a Blackmachine B7 was $1300 then some of you guys would rather have an RG1527? Is that what some of you are saying?



redstone said:


> Never heard of that. Pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> Just RG clones with a parker headstock, a very thin body and a distinctive pseudo-arm cut.



Maybe not entirely flat but flatter than a 22" radius I have on another guitar. Seriously almost flat. I will try and see if a pic comes out showing it correctly. My tech was like "I dont even know what gauge to use for setting up the bridge cause the fretboard is so flat"



Watty said:


> Regardless, I suppose I can hope that you get one to try and proceed to offer your opinion on whether or not they're all they're cracked up to be.



Id like to hear it too. Price aside, they are entirely all that they are cracked up to be. Trust me, if they were $1200 then you would never hear the end of how good they are for the price, yet people bitch about how high the prices of Ibanez is.



AwDeOh said:


> I thought Doug wasn't taking orders at the moment anyhow?



He isn't taking orders. He has ten names down for ten upcoming builds, plus it was stated in another thread by the guy who builds the B6 for him that he is planning around twelve or so B6 as in-stock builds throughout the next year and a half. Something along those lines.



StevenC said:


> @leonardo7
> 
> While I agree totally that BMs have something very special about them, greater than the sum of their parts, yadda yadda, those things have all been done before Doug came along. If he was the first to put it all together that's about the only innovation, which considering the copying trend may have been more of an influence. What seems to be the defining characteristic for BMs is how well built they are and if it's innovative to do things right, we must have been in a sorry state before.
> I don't mean anything against the guitars, quite the opposite in fact. They are definitely in a league of their own but not for innovation. For simply being fantastic instruments, as you well know from owning one.



Your point is well taken. Influential is a good term. Yes, I sort of feel like combining all of those things together is what is somewhat innovative in its own way. But yes if the term innovation would refer to something completely new that has not been done before, then I suppose all of those things may have separately been done before. But then again, I was completely unaware and am still unaware of a company or luthier making 7 strings with that thin of a body before Doug. The thin body resonates more. Also, I dont know of any other 7 string before Blackmachine with that flat of a fretboard radius which for me makes the playing that much more enjoyable.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 23, 2013)

Watty said:


> I wasn't aware that was a pre-requisite to even get a response period. I've sent a few emails, but they were never worded in such a way as to indicate anything like what you specified (in the negative sense).



quoting this thread (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...-fyi-available-blackmachine-b7-bm-site-3.html) 

_" In the end it's a matter of offering the right amount of money he needs and somehow be noticed by him positively. Or at least prove that you will make good use of the guitar. Fred, for example, showed him his incredible skills and in the end even recorded his debut album with the B7, that's the difference between having a guitar and make good use of it.

In the end, it doesn't make any sense to put all his efforts, thoughts and passion into an instrument, and then waste its potential with a collector, for example. Although his guitars are Art in its purest form imho, they're still guitars and are made to be played."_


This is not to compare my musical output, ability, audience or anything of that sort. Furthermore, i'm not quoting that to compare or imply a relatively pedestrian B6 requiring the same efforts as say a B2 or F8. I'm just saying perhaps if a person were to indicate more than just the size of the payment they can send him or general interest, it's possible to get a little further in the process. Regardless of how great of a player they are, how widely exposed they are, or the size of the audience that will be eyeing the gear they step on stage with.


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## wrongnote85 (Mar 23, 2013)

i came here thinking this thread was going to be about that cirith ungol song.


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## StevenC (Mar 23, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Your point is well taken. Influential is a good term. Yes, I sort of feel like combining all of those things together is what is somewhat innovative in its own way. But yes if the term innovation would refer to something completely new that has not been done before, then I suppose all of those things may have separately been done before. But then again I was completely unaware and am still unaware of a company or luthier making 7 strings with that thin of a body before Doug. The thin body resonates more. Also, I dont know of any other 7 string with that flat of a fretboard radius which for me makes the playing that much more enjoyable.



I'd just like to say that I don't think they're overpriced and will be happy to pay the price as soon as I am able.

Maybe not 7s, but if we're talking thin guitars, SGs and Ibanez S series, which where available as 7s, are both pretty thin but you've addressed that. I'd also say the B7 is an evolution of the B2. As far as I'm aware the B2 came first, so therefore thin 6 strings are comparable.

And again not 7s, but I think classicals are flat, or at least high radius. So I guess putting it together in the B2/B7 package and quality can be argued as innovative. It is definitely distinct from everything else that came before in this regard. And if he were making straight up start copies that played this well, I'd still want one.

EDIT: About the ebony and rosewood. Fender made George Harrison a Telecaster completely of rosewood in the 60s, including the neck. So while not widely available or as a 7, it has been done. As far as an ebony top goes, I feel as though I've heard of it somewhere before, but I can't be sure. I'll be more than glad to give Doug the credit he deserves, because he works hard on these guitars. What I said earlier about B2/B7 being argued as innovative still applies, though.


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## leonardo7 (Mar 23, 2013)

Also, who else was using rosewood/ebony necks? Who was even using rosewood in the neck of a 7? Or what about the ebony top? Those things attribute to tone and look cool as well. It seems that nowadays every other custom build has a rosewood neck


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## StevenC (Mar 24, 2013)

I edited my post to reflect your edit, but you changed it back so now I look like I read your mind. See above.


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## leonardo7 (Mar 24, 2013)

StevenC said:


> I edited my post to reflect your edit, but you changed it back so now I look like I read your mind. See above.



I must have edited/added to mine after you quoted me. I saw that so I removed it and put it in a new reply


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 24, 2013)

StevenC said:


> I'd just like to say that I don't think they're overpriced and will be happy to pay the price as soon as I am able.
> 
> Maybe not 7s, but if we're talking thin guitars, SGs and Ibanez S series, which where available as 7s, are both pretty thin but you've addressed that. I'd also say the B7 is an evolution of the B2. As far as I'm aware the B2 came first, so therefore thin 6 strings are comparable.
> 
> ...



super sidebar, PRS has been doing production rosewood necks for a while.


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## StevenC (Mar 24, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> I must have edited/added to mine after you quoted me. I saw that so I removed it and put it in a new reply



Yeah it seems that way
One more thing I'd like to say, though, is that presuming the B2 preceded the B7, then just because a feature wasn't available on a 7 doesn't mean it was innovative to put it on a 7, if we instead just call them all guitars. So if Fender made rosewood necks in the 60s, I'm sure a rosewood neck 7 could have been ordered from a custom shop at any point in the 80s or 90s. Well, if any custom shop would build a 7 in the 80s.

@Paul Reed Shred

Excellent point. I can't believe I forgot about them. I actually had to google and see a Warmoth tele with a RW neck before remembering George Harrison's. I'm not sure when PRS started with the RW, though, but I imagine it was the 90s, as I don't think I've heard of an 80s PRS with a RW neck.


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## ice_age_magic (Mar 24, 2013)

Buy it - if you don't like it, someone will pay up to 5000 USD and you will have almost doubled your money.

If it was me, I'd keep it, at least until a B2 became available.


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## ice_age_magic (Mar 24, 2013)

By the way - I saw a BC Rich Gunslinger a while back that Doug had apparently built. So maybe he did some work with them once upon a time?


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## narad (Mar 24, 2013)

I have to admit that I read that long list of things-that-make-a-blackmachine-not-an-RG and I don't see a lot of truly original innovation in blackmachines aside from the nameplate and the use of those ebony tops.

But is that a bad thing? There's still a lot to be said for combining, from many sources, a lot of things that work and trimming out the things that don't work. To amalgamate a bunch of different features but still manage put something out there that's immediately identifiable as your own, and desired more than all the alternatives that it's derived from.

To the OP, if he's offering it around $3k, I'd hop on it. The bubble's not going to burst anytime in the short-term, so it's basically a no-risk opportunity to take it for a spin. If it suits you, fine, if not, super easy to sell or trade for something that might.


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## AwDeOh (Mar 24, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> quoting this thread (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...-fyi-available-blackmachine-b7-bm-site-3.html)
> 
> _" In the end it's a matter of offering the right amount of money he needs and somehow be noticed by him positively. Or at least prove that you will make good use of the guitar. Fred, for example, showed him his incredible skills and in the end even recorded his debut album with the B7, that's the difference between having a guitar and make good use of it.
> 
> In the end, it doesn't make any sense to put all his efforts, thoughts and passion into an instrument, and then waste its potential with a collector, for example. Although his guitars are Art in its purest form imho, they're still guitars and are made to be played."_



RE: the quote from that thread.. I'm sorry if this rubs anybody the wrong way, but I think that's more than a little arrogant - I really hope that's *not* how Doug thinks and works.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 24, 2013)

AwDeOh said:


> RE: the quote from that thread.. I'm sorry if this rubs anybody the wrong way, but I think that's more than a little arrogant - I really hope that's *not* how Doug thinks and works.



A lot of the conversation in that thread follows the "my buddy's bandmate's guitarist had one back in '06... and he said that doug was _____" line of discussion, I haven't put too much stock in anything said by a non owner who has no correspondence with doug.


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## Prydogga (Mar 24, 2013)

redstone said:


> Never heard of that. Pics or it didn't happen.
> 
> Just RG clones with a parker headstock, a very thin body and a distinctive pseudo-arm cut.



Most classical guitars have a flat radius, as do Huf's guitars. I don't have any pics on hand of a blackmachine's fretboard, but I wouldn't doubt it.


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## Watty (Mar 24, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> quoting this thread (http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...-fyi-available-blackmachine-b7-bm-site-3.html)
> 
> This is not to compare my musical output, ability, audience or anything of that sort. Furthermore, i'm not quoting that to compare or imply a relatively pedestrian B6 requiring the same efforts as say a B2 or F8. I'm just saying perhaps if a person were to indicate more than just the size of the payment they can send him or general interest, it's possible to get a little further in the process. Regardless of how great of a player they are, how widely exposed they are, or the size of the audience that will be eyeing the gear they step on stage with.



That's not what I meant to insinuate; and again, I didn't say anything about how much money I could offer him for the guitar. I don't care if this is the way that Doug wants to conduct business. In fact, I applaud him for getting to the point where money is no object and he can sell his art how he pleases.

However, I think that a small builder should reply to his customers regardless of whether a transaction will take place. I've inquired around 5 times as of yet and haven't received even an auto-reply in response. To put it in perspective, I'd contacted another guy who's on par with/"better than" Doug, and despite us not working out a purchase, he's still spent on the order of two hours emailing with me (most of it after the realization I would not be commissioning a build). That's something I can respect immensely, and I really don't care for Doug's non-reply, especially when it's about the B6's.

Now, can he respond with a nice detailed message to every person who emails him? No, of course not. But even a simple "reply all" with a generic "I'm not taking orders for custom/stock instruments or replying inquiries at this time" would go a long way in my book. (And keep in mind several of the inquiries were before he put the notice on his site that details half that).


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> and despite us not working out a purchase, he's still spent on the order of two hours emailing with me (most of it after the realization I would not be commissioning a build). That's something I can respect immensely, and I really don't care for Doug's non-reply, especially when it's about the B6's.
> 
> Now, can he respond with a nice detailed message to every person who emails him? No, of course not. But even a simple "reply all" with a generic "I'm not taking orders for custom/stock instruments or replying inquiries at this time" would go a long way in my book. (And keep in mind several of the inquiries were before he put the notice on his site that details half that).



I agree, getting a response from a luthier as a seriously interested buyer should not be an unexpected and fortuitous event no matter who is making the instrument.


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## crg123 (Mar 24, 2013)

wrongnote85 said:


> i came here thinking this thread was going to be about that cirith ungol song.



Not to derail the thread but hahahah no fucking way someone knows who cirith ungol is. Its such a rare occurrence to find another person who's heard of them no matter likes them. 

It's a little annoying he doesn't respond unless he feels like he can work something out with someone, but the guy probably gets swamped with requests all the time. Even if he doesn't he might be a mad artist with his own ways; they tend to all have their own personal quirks. I do agree with the frustration though.


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## Watty (Mar 24, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> I agree, getting a response from a luthier as a seriously interested buyer should not be an unexpected and fortuitous event no matter who is making the instrument.



Appreciate the agreement. 

Regardless, I wonder if Doug's ever considered "licensing" his design. Or at least telling other folks they can make a copy without the nameplate and pay him a royalty as we might for Ola's neck profile.


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## theoctopus (Mar 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> To put it in perspective, I'd contacted another guy who's on par with/"better than" Doug, and despite us not working out a purchase, he's still spent on the order of two hours emailing with me (most of it after the realization I would not be commissioning a build). That's something I can respect immensely, and I really don't care for Doug's non-reply, especially when it's about the B6's.



That says a lot more about you than it does about the luthier, bud.


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## Watty (Mar 24, 2013)

theoctopus said:


> That says a lot more about you than it does about the luthier, bud.



What? That I keep "bothering" him? Or that we simply had something to talk about? I figured I'd keep the details about the conversation to myself while using it as a good example, I don't know why you'd assume it was negative on my end.

That's a veiled attempt at condescension if I ever saw one. 



crg123 said:


> It's a little annoying he doesn't respond unless he feels like he can work something out with someone, but the guy probably gets swamped with requests all the time. Even if he doesn't he might be a mad artist with his own ways; they tend to all have their own personal quirks. I do agree with the frustration though.



That's the thing though....how hard is it to hit reply all with what I'd said earlier? Anyone he'd be willing to work with would have other means of getting ahold of him anyways...


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## redstone (Mar 24, 2013)

Prydogga said:


> Most classical guitars have a flat radius, as do Huf's guitars. I don't have any pics on hand of a blackmachine's fretboard, but I wouldn't doubt it.



All the pics I found display a noticeable radius, sure it's high but not close to flat. Not a BM trademark


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## skeels (Mar 24, 2013)

+1 cirith ungol!

Also, I came here curious as to the origins of Dougie's produce and leave now with a newfound respect for his methods, never to return. 

Good luck OP!


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## wrongnote85 (Mar 24, 2013)

crg123 said:


> Not to derail the thread but hahahah no fucking way someone knows who cirith ungol is. Its such a rare occurrence to find another person who's heard of them no matter likes them.




 dude when i read he thread title that was the first thing i thought of


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## sakeido (Mar 24, 2013)

redstone said:


> All the pics I found display a noticeable radius, sure it's high but not close to flat. Not a BM trademark



ya the one i played was definitely not flat radius


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> What? That I keep "bothering" him? Or that we simply had something to talk about? I figured I'd keep the details about the conversation to myself while using it as a good example, I don't know why you'd assume it was negative on my end.
> 
> That's a veiled attempt at condescension if I ever saw one.
> 
> ...



I really hope this doesn't turn into one of those threads where people keep having to explain things to make a pointless point. Same with the worthless banter, I hope this is the last of it.

The thread's original question has been answered on page one, and anything after might just be fuel for a pointless argument like every BM thread out there.

Point is, 15+ Years, and please do let us know how you like the B6 and how it compares to some of your other instruments and others you've played!


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## leonardo7 (Mar 24, 2013)

OP please get the B6 and let us know your opinions!

I wont spend more time in here explaining my experience with Blackmachine. Just trying to help a little though. Hey if less people dont think they are all that then more chances for me to own another one.

In the words of Doug "I don't actually use a specific radius however, but it is a flat conical section." 

To address the OPs question of the origin. I remember reading somewhere that the story is basically that he started out by building guitars in and around London for his friends and people he knew in local bands. He always sort of just built guitars the way that he wished they would be. As far as Im concerned, he has really good taste in how a guitar should feel, play and sound. 

I dont know what it really is, its probably all of the elements I already explained coming together at one time, most important being the way the neck feels in my hands and the quality of the work and choice of timbers, but I swear every time I pick up my Blackmachine I tend to be more creative than your average guitar. I know it sounds cheesy but it really is an almost magical experience 

Ive played a Steve Mercer Blackmachine copy and it actually had a similar tone due to being chambered in the right spots but the bridge sucked and the frets were sharp on the edges and not fully pushed into the fretboard. Other little details just weren't on point either. But overall it wasn't half bad. Ive also played a Skervesen raptor and it played killer, sounded heavy, but didn't really sound like the Blackmachine and had sloppy details such as in the binding work. Just sayin.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 24, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> OP please get the B6 and let us know your opinions!
> 
> I wont spend more time in here explaining my experience with Blackmachine. Just trying to help a little though. Hey if less people dont think they are all that then more chances for me to own another one.
> 
> ...





Kenji20022 said:


> I really hope this doesn't turn into one of those threads where people keep having to explain things to make a pointless point. Same with the worthless banter, I hope this is the last of it.
> 
> The thread's original question has been answered on page one, and anything after might just be fuel for a pointless argument like every BM thread out there.
> 
> Point is, 15+ Years, and please do let us know how you like the B6 and how it compares to some of your other instruments and others you've played!




These are the responses I was looking for, thanks guys!

additionally, I'm waiting to hear back from Doug. he'd asked me if I'd played one before which is a truthful no, but the fact that he responded and actually listed me a price is a good sign regardless. As soon as I can get a hold of one, I certainly will.


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 24, 2013)

did some digging:

Guitar Porn | 1995 Blackmachine SG. Owen Brown sent this beast...

Horrifically Human | This is the first Blackmachine guitar ever built....


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## Watty (Mar 24, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> additionally, I'm waiting to hear back from Doug. he'd asked me if I'd played one before which is a truthful no, but the fact that he responded and actually listed me a price is a good sign regardless. As soon as I can get a hold of one, I certainly will.



Well, again here's to hoping you're able to get one.

To the other point you mentioned though, it almost sounds as if he wants people who buy his instruments to have played them before...which would be cool, if they were more available and actually came up for sale on a regular basis. I'd be down to put up for shipping on a "demo" B6 if it meant getting that "qualification" out of the way and see whether or not it was something worth pursuing further. But, like you said, you can't have played on before because they are so rare and people tend to hold onto them.


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## Gregori (Mar 24, 2013)

Before this thread, I didn't realize that making something slightly thinner and using a less common wood combination was innovation.


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## Jonathan20022 (Mar 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> Well, again here's to hoping you're able to get one.
> 
> To the other point you mentioned though, it almost sounds as if he wants people who buy his instruments to have played them before...which would be cool, if they were more available and actually came up for sale on a regular basis. I'd be down to put up for shipping on a "demo" B6 if it meant getting that "qualification" out of the way and see whether or not it was something worth pursuing further. But, like you said, you can't have played on before because they are so rare and people tend to hold onto them.



I'm pretty sure you need to get this "qualification" talk out of here, this is how rumors start. And how Doug's going to get spammed by people thinking they somehow found the formula to get one. I've already seen it since the creation of this page, and it's getting quite obnoxious. This is pure speculation, we are not inside Doug's mind and we don't know how he operates his business. I think you need to respect that and realize that the man himself has not clarified anything relating to the process of getting one.

If he takes this as seriously as some people have said, then he makes instruments suited to him in regards to everything but the Standard B6. This means that not every single Blackmachine is perfect for everyone, just like every Telecaster in existence is suited for every Tele lover. He could just be looking for someone who's actually going to play it, and no showcase it and rub it in everyone's faces in a condescending manner. (Not pointing fingers)

If he hasn't gotten back to you, there's probably a good reason for that, because he seems to respond to others with ease. 

This whole having a history with the company is also pretty much just banter, there's nothing out there to verify it. There's probably owners who have never been to the UK and played these guitars, like the OP for instance. So that theory is a bit ridiculous. I'm sure knowing and having a history can help you achieve a B2/B7/FF.



Gregori said:


> Before this thread, I didn't realize that making something slightly thinner and using a less common wood combination was innovation.



The world after the year 2000, it seems.


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## Watty (Mar 24, 2013)

Kenji20022 said:


> I'm pretty sure you need to get this "qualification" talk out of here, this is how rumors start. And how Doug's going to get spammed by people thinking they somehow found the formula to get one. I've already seen it since the creation of this page, and it's getting quite obnoxious. This is pure speculation, we are not inside Doug's mind and we don't know how he operates his business. I think you need to respect that and realize that the man himself has not clarified anything relating to the process of getting one.
> 
> If he takes this as seriously as some people have said, then he makes instruments suited to him in regards to everything but the Standard B6. This means that not every single Blackmachine is perfect for everyone, just like every Telecaster in existence is suited for every Tele lover. He could just be looking for someone who's actually going to play it, and no showcase it and rub it in everyone's faces in a condescending manner. (Not pointing fingers)
> 
> If he hasn't gotten back to you, there's probably a good reason for that, because he seems to respond to others with ease.



Well, being that Doug asked that of the OP directly, I'd say it's at least something that he considers relevant, regardless of whether or not it actually makes a difference in the final transaction. So, while "qualification" isn't quite the right word to use, it's at least close to the intent of the question. And that's precisely the point, he HASN'T clarified, which I'm sure would be very much appreciate by more parties than just myself.

And because you don't know how I worded my messages, assuming that he has a good reason for completely ignoring me is a bit odd, especially given it was most often in regards to the B6 and not a "custom" build. I'd rather have him confirm that he'll never build me a guitar or allow me to buy one than to completely ignore me.


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## redstone (Mar 24, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> In the words of Doug "I don't actually use a specific radius however, but it is a flat conical section."



Which means it's a compound radius, right ? Well it's not clear.. even Nolly said "nor do I have issues chording on my 20+" radius Blackmachine". What the hell is 20+ ? Why so few informations ? How can you live without knowing it (honest question, I couldn't) ?


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 24, 2013)

Watty said:


> And because you don't know how I worded my messages, assuming that he has a good reason for completely ignoring me is a bit odd, especially given it was most often in regards to the B6 and not a "custom" build. I'd rather have him confirm that he'll never build me a guitar or allow me to buy one than to completely ignore me.



Dude you really need to chill and not make contacting Doug so personal. He gets roughly 10-20 emails a day. There is no way he can reply to every single person.

4-5 years ago I used to get up to 15 messages a day on youtube asking for tabs/advice/tips etc and it was exhausting to have to go through that everyday especially when most were very similar. Most days I wouldn't even get to reply and if I left it for a week or so I'd be swamped with 100+ that I would just have to mark all as read. I can't even imagine having to deal with hundreds of emails asking for builds when you've closed your waiting list.


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## AwDeOh (Mar 24, 2013)




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## Watty (Mar 24, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> Dude you really need to chill and not make contacting Doug so personal. He gets roughly 10-20 emails a day. There is no way he can reply to every single person.
> 
> 4-5 years ago I used to get up to 15 messages a day on youtube asking for tabs/advice/tips etc and it was exhausting to have to go through that everyday especially when most were very similar. Most days I wouldn't even get to reply and if I left it for a week or so I'd be swamped with 100+ that I would just have to mark all as read. I can't even imagine having to deal with hundreds of emails asking for builds when you've closed your waiting list.



I totally get what you mean, and I completely understand that he can't sit down and write a personal reply to each person, nor is that what I'm asking for if you'd read the above. I'd be satisfied with a reply all that said that he was not taking orders, reserving spots for B6's being built, or replying to specific questions. After which, he could sit down and reply to those people that he really did want to talk to because he'd already stroked up a transaction with them, or really did want to talk to them. And I've only contacted him once since he put up the "can't order at this time" on his site, and it was about the B6's for sale. In this instance especially, I'd EXPECT to get a form letter in reply saying something like, 'these have now been sold, thanks for the interest.' Is that really so much to ask?

Edit: Perhaps this is just me not liking his customer service after working in the field for 5 years. Common courtesy and all that jazz...


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## hairychris (Mar 25, 2013)

Paging Feline Guitars!! 

I'll add a few things in to the mix:

- The swamp ash guitars (all B series) generally aren't/weren't chambered unless things have changed in past 3 years. My 2010 B7 is chambered, sapele body, but mid-00's mahog B6 is not. He introduced chambering between those 2 were built, so I may be wrong about the swamp ash customs! B6s are one piece bodies so aren't chambered.
- Until a few years back they were very reasonably priced for the specs. His name got out, and demand has risen whereas his ability to output guitars quickly has not. He's not automated his custom builds in the slightest.
- He will never license anything out, as such, but does work with people as in the case of the B6. If it has his name on it he's got to be involved.
- Fretboards are compound radius, not sure the measurements. Neck profile of the 6 was kind of Ibanez RG until mid 00s, then he added a couple of mm to it. Not sure what his standard profile for the 7 is as mine's a weirdo.
- The "qualification" nonsense. There isn't any, but he does want to know that he'll sell a guitar to someone who'll appreciate it, and gets his very specific aesthetic. If there was a technical test to ownership I'd fail miserably. Admittedly there are a whole bunch of us who were based out of an East London rehearsal studio in early 00's who have Doug's guitars but that's because he was rehearsing there too.

FWIW I wouldn't pay the sort of cash that's being asked right now for one, but that's on a purely personal level. I couldn't justify it. I've always wanted a spalty though....


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## xwmucradiox (Mar 25, 2013)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> They were very cheap before 07-08ish



Perhaps compared to now when every build commands $6-8000. I ordered a B2 in 2005 or 2006 and paid about $3800 and I wouldn't call that "very cheap" by any stretch of the imagination.


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## StevenC (Mar 25, 2013)

xwmucradiox said:


> Perhaps compared to now when every build commands $6-8000. I ordered a B2 in 2005 or 2006 and paid about $3800 and I wouldn't call that "very cheap" by any stretch of the imagination.



In 05/06 that was about £2200 give or take. Compared to a lot of other guitars, that's not really expensive, and would have been about the price of a JP6 over here. And B6s were supposed to be cheaper in the £1200-1600 range, I've heard, which would be cheaper than a lot of Ibanez.


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## xwmucradiox (Mar 25, 2013)

StevenC said:


> In 05/06 that was about £2200 give or take. Compared to a lot of other guitars, that's not really expensive, and would have been about the price of a JP6 over here. And B6s were supposed to be cheaper in the £1200-1600 range, I've heard, which would be cheaper than a lot of Ibanez.



Depending on where you are in the world the perceived value there will change dramatically. I could have bought two similarly specced JP6s (6 strings with a pair of humbuckers and simple controls) for the same amount of money. They would have included hard cases (I wouldn't have been informed at the last minute that I also needed to buy a $400 hard case if I wanted the guitar to arrive safely...) and they would have been absolutely flawless in build quality. Just like the JP7 I have now. I could have also bought a nice Suhr or Tom Anderson and had $1000 left over. Both would be superior in build quality to the Blackmachine. They would also arrive in 4 months rather than two years.

If you are in the UK it may be wise to buy from one of your countrymen because of exchange rates and VAT. For anyone else a nice Ibanez would be superior to a Blackmachine at a small fraction of the price. 

But nearly everyone who is lured into buying a Blackmachine does it for looks and prestige. Thats why I bought mine. I was young and foolish with my money. 

I'm sure few people will agree with me. Buy I also know very few people who attempt to speak with authority about Blackmachine guitars have probably ever been within 100 yards of one, let alone laid hands on one.


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## Amanita (Mar 25, 2013)

section of a cone means compound radius
fixed radius is a section of a cylinder.
20+ (inches) means that the radius is flatter than 20". since typical radius gauges end at 20" all one can say that the radius is flatter than that 

also - things like thin bodies were known since SG. hard and super-dense woods were also used for necks before by eg. MusicMan.
but combination of these factors gives emergent results 



leonardo7 said:


> Ive played a Steve Mercer Blackmachine copy and it actually had a similar tone due to being chambered in the right spots but the bridge sucked and the frets were sharp on the edges and not fully pushed into the fretboard. Other little details just weren't on point either. But overall it wasn't half bad. Ive also played a Skervesen raptor and it played killer, sounded heavy, but didn't really sound like the Blackmachine and had sloppy details such as in the binding work. Just sayin.



would you care to elaborate about the sonic difference between Raptor and BM? i'm sincerely curious 
two things to note - none of the Raptors out there is chambered.
and, while i don't know exactly what neck profile Doug uses, i don't think Skervesen uses anything similar. we stick to our own asymmetric thing, so the neck may feel quite differently


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## StevenC (Mar 25, 2013)

xwmucradiox said:


> Depending on where you are in the world the perceived value there will change dramatically. I could have bought two similarly specced JP6s (6 strings with a pair of humbuckers and simple controls) for the same amount of money. They would have included hard cases (I wouldn't have been informed at the last minute that I also needed to buy a $400 hard case if I wanted the guitar to arrive safely...) and they would have been absolutely flawless in build quality. Just like the JP7 I have now. I could have also bought a nice Suhr or Tom Anderson and had $1000 left over. Both would be superior in build quality to the Blackmachine. They would also arrive in 4 months rather than two years.
> 
> If you are in the UK it may be wise to buy from one of your countrymen because of exchange rates and VAT. For anyone else a nice Ibanez would be superior to a Blackmachine at a small fraction of the price.
> 
> ...



Those are good points, but I should have mentioned that I meant from a Uk buying perspective, as he has to base his price from his own currency. A £4000 from the UK and a $4000 from the USA may be of the same standard, and the USA guitars is cheaper for everyone, but both builders are likely being payed an equivalent rate. Essentially, my point was that if Doug priced for the American market, he couldn't survive in London.

To me Daemoness has a reasonable starting price, KxK appear to be good value and blackmachine used to be good value but are now expensive along with EBMM BFRs. However, over there, everything thing looks expensive and blackmachine very much so.

P.S. I don't mean to come across as insulting you, because I'm essentially explaining what you wrote in your first sentence. Oh well.


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## redstone (Mar 25, 2013)

Amanita said:


> section of a cone means compound radius
> fixed radius is a section of a cylinder.
> 20+ (inches) means that the radius is flatter than 20". since typical radius gauges end at 20" all one can say that the radius is flatter than that



Yeah it makes sense, I can picture myself buying a 2nd hand BM that needs some fretwork asap, not finding a tech who can properly identify the radius and failing to join Doug since he wouldn't know me and skip my mails


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 27, 2013)

update and bump-

Doug replied and basically said he'd let me know when one was ready a few months down the road. Anxious to see what happens until then.


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## Amanita (Mar 27, 2013)

redstone said:


> Yeah it makes sense, I can picture myself buying a 2nd hand BM that needs some fretwork asap, not finding a tech who can properly identify the radius and failing to join Doug since he wouldn't know me and skip my mails


just to clarify: for fret levelling and crowning information about fretboard radius/radii is absolutely unnecessary.


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## redstone (Mar 27, 2013)

Crowning files indeed, was just worried about pressing accuracy.

(must stop to hijack this thread btw, sorry guys  )


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## teleofseven (Mar 27, 2013)

guitars are not magical items that are created by elves with incredible precision and quality. no, they are pieces of wood that are created by hand or by machine. there is a limit to how much skill can be applied onto a guitar build. you cannot make wood better, or a flawless finish better. or perfect action better. ect.

what i'm trying to get at is that those luthiers that can bring those things in one guitar, are usually praised. but they still are just "good luthiers" (to me there's only bad, struggling and good luthiers). nobody is the best, because all techniques are known, and as i said, you can't improve something that already is flawless. there comes a wall for the ability to create something good, where you cannot make it any better. it is virtually impossible.

what made blackmachine "legendary", was that when they started coming out, they looked completely different to most guitars. and because of their looks and the price, people ofcourse thought that they must be extra special crazy incredible guitars. 
well, the looks is on par with that, but the price simply comes from the luthiers ability/speed to build them (he's gotta make a profit for himself) and the fact that he used exotic woods. which are expensive, and propably were more expensive when he started selling the guitars. 

and also, the image of the brand suggested something more special. so he not only was a good luthier, but a good businessman. he knew that image also is important. 
think about apple for example. apple is most likely the best example of how important image is. they sell 1000 computers at around triple that price. just because of their image. it's an apple, people are willing to pay extra for an apple. 
just like paying extra for a blackmachine.

there's nothing "special" or even better about blackmachines (as guitars), other than their branding and looks. build quality is not better than perfect and the woods are as good as the luthier can get. (which seem to truly bee high quality)

now i know some people will take all that i said, as me ranting and calling blackmachine bad. to those people i kindly suggest to READ IT AGAIN!!! 

blackmachines are great guitars, they're the max that you can reach in terms of build quality, and i've heard only good about their tone and durability (suggesting high quality woods). but he's not better than perfect, he is just a good luthier, and he got the image part right. therefore people know the brand as "worth paying extra".

there are few manufacturers and luthiers that copy blackmachines, just because they're so sought after. the good luthiers can and will deliver the same build quality, but the quality of the woods varies. parts are simply parts. they don't effect the quality of the instrument in any way.

you can get a blackmachine copy, with the same build quality, and even the same wood quality (if you take the time to look for a good luther) for less money. it'll just not be a blackmachine.

i would love to own one, sure. but can i afford one? nope.avi. never.
but then i would also love to own a skervesen, a mayones or even a blackat. great brands, good luthiers high quality woods. hearing nothing but good from them. whoops! they're all polish and have connections between themselves... SO WHAT!?!? that doesn't take any of the quality away or whatever.


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## Danukenator (Mar 27, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> what made blackmachine "legendary", was that when they started coming out, they looked completely different to most guitars. and because of their looks and the price, people ofcourse thought that they must be extra special crazy incredible guitars.



 The price increased after they became popular. Before, they were quite reasonably priced. (Not to say the current price is unfair/wrong/etc. the market dictates the price)


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## teleofseven (Mar 27, 2013)

Danukenator said:


> The price increased after they became popular. Before, they were quite reasonably priced. (Not to say the current price is unfair/wrong/etc. the market dictates the price)



further proves my point. i don't actually remember their original prices, since i would've had to ask it from him via email, back then. but there's that good businessman side of him again right there, he got popular and he capitalized on it. good for him, and i'm sure the "apple effect" got even stronger. 

guitar building is business, same as any. it's up to the founders and owners to decide where they want the company to go, and where they *can *take it.

he's good on all the areas. and the customers love to pay more for his products.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 27, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> parts are simply parts. they don't effect the quality of the instrument in any way.



 I really hope you worded that incorrectly because quality hardware(tuners/frets/bridge/electonics etc) to me is the most important part of a build above wood, construction and sound. If you did then play a guitar with a cheap floyd and it will never stay in tune or play a guitar with a cheap nut and the string will stick when you bend. I once played a 50 euro guitar that when I hammered on it dinted the frets they were so soft.



teleofseven said:


> further proves my point. i don't actually remember their original prices, since i would've had to ask it from him via email, back then. but there's that good businessman side of him again right there, he got popular and he capitalized on it. good for him, and i'm sure the "apple effect" got even stronger.
> 
> guitar building is business, same as any. it's up to the founders and owners to decide where they want the company to go, and where they *can *take it.
> 
> he's good on all the areas. and the customers love to pay more for his products.



This is what people don't get. He never tried to advertise his business or get it out there. He simply made guitars for friends and they were the ones who brought his builds to everyones attention. From there they got into the hands of famous players and it exploded from there again.


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## teleofseven (Mar 27, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> I really hope you worded that incorrectly because quality hardware(tuners/frets/bridge/electonics etc) to me is the most important part of a build above wood, construction and sound. If you did then play a guitar with a cheap floyd and it will never stay in tune or play a guitar with a cheap nut and the string will stick when you bend. I once played a 50 euro guitar that when I hammered on it dinted the frets they were so soft.



chill mofo, what i was going for is that parts don't effect the build quality. therefore, "parts are just parts". you can slap a hipshot bridge on a pile of wet dog shit and it wouldn't matter. parts do not matter when it's about the skill and craft of a luthier. cause he doesn't make them. (some do, but that's besides the point) 




drawnacrol said:


> This is what people don't get. He never tried to advertise his business or get it out there. He simply made guitars for friends and they were the ones who brought his builds to everyones attention. From there they got into the hands of famous players and it exploded from there again.



yeah... so he capitalized on that, made some name and fame with that. nothing wrong with that. i don't quite get your point. but i guess you just stated some facts?

i certainly didn't say he advertised the brand or anything. i've never heard so much as a peep from the guy himself. his fame, seems, is based almost solely on word being spread in the internets ect. (that includes artists using the guitars)

and just so that there wouldn't be ANY confusion, i'm saying it one last time. I AM NOT HATIN ON BLACKMACHINE!!!! do not think for one second i don't like the brand or the guitars. all i've said is in admiration of his accomplishments as a luthier. he's made some serious name for himself and the brand. in a very short time and i've heard almost nothing bad about his craft. 

dispite of saying all that, people will still interpid that in 55 000 different ways and someone will lose their shit. worst of all (and please do say it if you wanna appear as an idiot) somebody will respond in words like: TLDR lulz.

people on the internets...


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## hairychris (Mar 27, 2013)

^

Coming to think of it, Doug's mindset is still selling guitars to mates. I wasn't there at the start of that, but know a bunch of those people with early guitars. I was involved in the back end of that particular scene in London, got to know all the folks and Doug included. Lotsa gigs, lotsa bands, lotsa chatter about guitars, including stupid shit like Doug showing me the maths about scale lengths on his phone at a gig over beers...at the same time that he was showing x-ray pics of his arm after a motorcycle accident (pro-tip: don't fall off a big bike at a track day, death ain't a concept at that point).

Fame? It means fuck all to the guy. In fact, because he's practically OCD when it comes to builds,h he'd rather not have excessive publicity about him. My B7 was built over the bad end of the late 00's chaos - 2 1/4 years to get it built. When that run of guitars was done he was close to jacking the whole thing in.

The whole reason he's shortened the runs is to stop the same painful (for all parties) crap from happening again. I didn't care: I was paying off 500 quid at a time and knew that Doug's legit. I can imagine that if you didn't know him it'd be problematic. Restricted slots means that he can keep on top of it. And, fyi, for B2/7/8 it's not a full shop or anything but an obsessive guy in North London with a few power tools and access to interesting timber. Old school. And doing the maths, after all the deductions and because of the time spent, his hourly rate is *shit*.

Love his work but rather him then me doing it!! And, well, if you get his work you're on his "good dudes" list. Take at this as you will. 

EDIT: About hardware. My B7 uses a simple hardtail strat-style Gotoh bridge. Not fancy, but solid, and was probably the last one to have one of them. Hey, I like those bridges!


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## Paul Reed Shred (Mar 27, 2013)

hairychris said:


> ^
> 
> Coming to think of it, Doug's mindset is still selling guitars to mates. I wasn't there at the start of that, but know a bunch of those people with early guitars. I was involved in the back end of that particular scene in London, got to know all the folks and Doug included. Lotsa gigs, lotsa bands, lotsa chatter about guitars, including stupid shit like Doug showing me the maths about scale lengths on his phone at a gig over beers...at the same time that he was showing x-ray pics of his arm after a motorcycle accident (pro-tip: don't fall off a big bike at a track day, death ain't a concept at that point).
> 
> ...




If anything's taken away from this thread, it should be that first sentence. That's pretty much the point. There aren't any hidden Blackmachine raindances to be done or excessive wallet plundering involved, just patience.


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## narad (Mar 28, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> what made blackmachine "legendary", was that when they started coming out, they looked completely different to most guitars. and because of their looks and the price, people ofcourse thought that they must be extra special crazy incredible guitars.



One guy says it looks completely different to most guitars, another guy says it's an RG clone. I want some consistency in ranting, dammit.

But moreover, they weren't a big deal when they first started coming out. This story doesn't really fit. I had a blackmachine for sale in the emporium here for months with barely a PM prior to Periphery and Red Seas Fire releasing albums.


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## arkohors (Mar 28, 2013)

narad said:


> One guy says it looks completely different to most guitars, another guy says it's an RG clone. I want some consistency in ranting, dammit.
> 
> But moreover, they weren't a big deal when they first started coming out. This story doesn't really fit. I had a blackmachine for sale in the emporium here for months with barely a PM prior to Periphery and Red Seas Fire releasing albums.



Same thing happened when I posted my Mayones a few years ago. Nobody would touch it, but as soon as bands like Periphery started playing Mayones, my inbox was flooded.


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## leonardo7 (Mar 28, 2013)

Blackmachines slay everything. Thats all that matters. Thats all that you need to know


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## AwDeOh (Mar 28, 2013)

arkohors said:


> Same thing with happened when I posted my Mayones a few years ago. Nobody would touch it, but as soon as bands like Periphery started playing Mayones, my inbox was flooded.



This.

Keith Merrow is a good example. Great guitarist, involved with great companies. But nothing's really changed, product wise. What the companies are getting is a direct conduit from the company to the end user through Keith and others, which helps a buyer feel more emotionally invested in a company.


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## Lorcan Ward (Mar 29, 2013)

narad said:


> One guy says it looks completely different to most guitars, another guy says it's an RG clone. I want some consistency in ranting, dammit.
> 
> But moreover, they weren't a big deal when they first started coming out. This story doesn't really fit. I had a blackmachine for sale in the emporium here for months with barely a PM prior to Periphery and Red Seas Fire releasing albums.



Thats guitarists for you. The most inconsistent opinion I've ever come across is for BKP Aftermaths. Tightest pickup ever/Muddy and undefined, Dark and smooth/Harsh and abrasive. 

True but its good we have guys like Misha and Nolly since they brought Vik, Bare Knuckle, Axe-Fx etc a lot of attention here while speaking out about companies like Invictus saving people a lot of grief. A lot of it is down to fanboyism and hype but it works. Just look at the comeback Seymour Duncan have made with endorsing Ola and Keith. 



leonardo7 said:


> Blackmachines slay everything. Thats all that matters. Thats all that you need to know



You've been chosen for the first manned mission to Mars but you can only bring one guitar with you, your Vik Duality or your Blackmachine B7?


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## AwDeOh (Mar 29, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> A lot of it is down to fanboyism and hype but it works. Just look at the comeback Seymour Duncan have made with endorsing Ola and Keith.



I didn't really wanna use 'fanboyism', so I'm glad you said it first  That's exactly what I mean. It's not a bad thing though.


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## -Berserker_ (Mar 29, 2013)

Is Black Machine a registered brand/business? Does Doug declare the money he makes from selling the guitars to inland revenue? does he have a proper VAT code?


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## teleofseven (Mar 29, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> Is Black Machine a registered brand/business? Does Doug declare the money he makes from selling the guitars to inland revenue? does he have a proper VAT code?



why do you wanna know that?

i think he has to have registered the business since he sells his guitars by order.

there is some companies in uk, listed with the name blackmachine. one of them is active (since 1993).

but i'm still wondering why you wanna know.


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## -Berserker_ (Mar 29, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> why do you wanna know that?
> 
> i think he has to have registered the business since he sells his guitars by order.
> 
> ...




What does it matter why i want to know? its a simple question. I personally wouldn't buy from any kind of non registered business as A) it makes it harder to make claims against them or sue/take them to court if things go wrong B) I don't want to be giving my money to tax evaders. C) Look at what happened with Invictus, lots of people lost a lot of money in that instance, and the culprit got away.

Are those good enough reasons? Is there something wrong with me asking that question? If so, why is it wrong for me to ask that question?


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## teleofseven (Mar 29, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> What does it matter why i want to know? its a simple question. I personally wouldn't buy from any kind of non registered business as A) it makes it harder to make claims against them or sue/take them to court if things go wrong B) I don't want to be giving my money to tax evaders. C) Look at what happened with Invictus, lots of people lost a lot of money in that instance, and the culprit got away.
> 
> Are those good enough reasons? Is there something wrong with me asking that question? If so, why is it wrong for me to ask that question?



you're saying you can't rely on blackmachine's know reputation, of being high quality and very sought after? yeah whatever.


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## Andromalia (Mar 29, 2013)

Seeing what happens to brands bulb is buying, I pray he won't buy an Amfisound anytime soon.


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## -Berserker_ (Mar 29, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> you're saying you can't rely on blackmachine's know reputation, of being high quality and very sought after? yeah whatever.



I didn't say that at all did i, i suggest you re-read what i wrote. I asked a question, you wanted to know why i wanted to know, I made my points, I said nothing negative about Black Machines reputation or their products.

I'm merely asking if Black Machine is a registered brand/company and if they declare/pay tax on the money they make from selling the guitars they build to inland revenue.

It's a simple question purely out of interest, if you don't know the answer then don't comment and if you do comment don't try and make it about something thats has nothing to do with my original question. I said "IF things go wrong" IF being the key word you are looking for to understand that i am not saying anything bad about them.

So can anyone answer my question?


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## FelineGuitars (Apr 7, 2013)

OK - As HairyChris has asked me to chime in , maybe I should and from a different angle.
I met Doug in about 1990, through a mutual friend who we were both trading guitar bits with. We all started to meet up weekly and soon became best friends.
We had much in common - our complete love of guitars and rock music , bicycles, Formula 1 and model car making (Doug is keen on radio control cars).
We came from different backgrounds. I had studied guitar making at London college of furniture and Doug had studied engineering. Over time the two different disciplines we had made for interesting discussions on guitar making, a few disagreements (only temporary) and led to a lot of experimentation in making techniques.

Back then we would be making guitars up using parts from other makers guitars and making other parts ourselves. 
The BC Rich Gunslinger that was on eBay recently was indeed an original BC Rich neck that Doug had refretted, and built the body for. 
I have very fond memories of that guitar. We traded many bits back and forth over those years - necks, pickups, Floyd Roses.

In '93 I was offered a job in a guitar repair shop that I couldn't take up because of other commitments - ironically I was working for an engineering company (even though I wanted that job), so I put Doug up for it and he was there for a number of years. 
I was making & repairing guitars all the time on the side of having a full time job and launched my company full time in 1997.

All of what has been said about Doug making for himself and a few friends initially is true , and at the time many others scoffed at his designs, saying that a thin body can't sustain etc (and much more besides). Doug's designs evolved from his own playing experiences, and were in part moulded by his enjoyment of playing guitars like SGs and Teles. 
His treatment of timbers is to do with needing the timbers to be dry and stable and to have lost some of the stresses that are released when cut open. 
This is actually a very old school luthier approach and one that requires a lot of time waiting for the woods to be ready for the next stages (something that can't always be done by large commercial factories). 
He and I are both somewhat OCD when it comes to what we do, and it can mean that nothing gets done in a hurry.

When it comes to enquiries Doug does take an interest in the players and the music they will be playing. 
It does always help to send a polite email that gives a little info and is a polite request to obtain one of his guitars, rather than something hastily typed on a phone *(How mch 4 a B6 m8?)*. 

Also remember that Doug may get 10-40 new enquiries a day and that is a lot of email to plough through, and when you have spent weeks in correspondence with someone and finally suggest to pay down some money to begin the project the potential customer says - "I haven't got any money, I was just making enquiries while I was bored at work", you can see that you start to feel that not all enquiries are real, and somehow you have to make judgement calls on which ones sound for real (and you don't always get that right). 
So a well structured request will go further to getting noticed and offered a guitar.
By offering to help out a bit I have taken some of the weight off Doug's shoulders, such that some B6s will actually get done this year(two have already gone out to happy homes) 

As far as pricing goes - I can tell you from personal experience that timber prices have shot through the ceiling here in the UK. 
It has become harder to get certain timbers altogether as well. The specs on the B6 have shot up using better hardware too. 
Another important factor here is when a maker gets real about his running costs. 
A starting out guitar maker living at home with his mum, paying just a bit of housekeeping and rent and building the guitars in a spare bedroom or garage may be able to charge less and still make ends meet and have enough money spare to go to the pub on a Friday night. 
However if you move out of the parental home and start living a normal life (which can happen by the time you are 35-40), or have to get a proper workshop suddenly the overheads you have to pay out are significantly more expensive, even before you sell a single guitar. 
To survive and have money to pay rent and bills etc and other living expenses you need to price your products accordingly. 
Very few small scale guitar makers make a sensible living out of it - they do it only because they are passionate about it.
I have customers working in supermarkets & shops and warehouses who are surprised at how much more they earn than I do (although they are jealous that I get to be around guitars all day)
If you look at the hours that can poured into a single guitar and the expenses incurred for the guy making it and the idea that that craftsman should maybe have a wage at the end of the week, you might feel differently about complaining about the price of something handcrafted in a first world country.


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## AVH (Apr 8, 2013)

Amanita said:


> just to clarify: for fret levelling and crowning information about fretboard radius/radii is absolutely unnecessary.



This is flat-out incorrect. It _is_ necessary to re-radius slightly after the leveling process - particularly when doing a compound radius fret dress - before crowning and then polishing. I'm surprised you'd say that.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> OK - As HairyChris has asked me to chime in , maybe I should and from a different angle.
> I met Doug in about 1990, through a mutual friend who we were both trading guitar bits with. We all started to meet up weekly and soon became best friends.
> We had much in common - our complete love of guitars and rock music , bicycles, Formula 1 and model car making (Doug is keen on radio control cars).
> We came from different backgrounds. I had studied guitar making at London college of furniture and Doug had studied engineering. Over time the two different disciplines we had made for interesting discussions on guitar making, a few disagreements (only temporary) and led to a lot of experimentation in making techniques.
> ...


 
That was a really interesting read, thanks for spending the time to give us some insight into how Blackmachine came to be along with your affiliation with Doug, its always interesting to look back 20 years or so and see how something has developed.

Though i have a few questions which no one else was able to answer and i reckon you might just be the guy to do it!

Is Blackmachine a registered business? Does Doug declare his earnings to inland revenue on the builds he sells to customers? Also, where is the wood sourced from? And is this done in an Ethical manner?

Thanks


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## engage757 (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> I didn't say that at all did i, i suggest you re-read what i wrote. I asked a question, you wanted to know why i wanted to know, I made my points, I said nothing negative about Black Machines reputation or their products.
> 
> I'm merely asking if Black Machine is a registered brand/company and if they declare/pay tax on the money they make from selling the guitars they build to inland revenue.
> 
> ...


I still don't think that Doug's tax and financial habits are anyone's business but his own. No one I have ever known was checking the financials of any luthiery company they were looking at.

Irrelevant is my  .

Not trying to be a dick or disrespectful bro, just really don't see how his taxes have anything to do with him building a guitar. 

The BUSINESS being legit I guess I can KIND of see though. But personally, I think Doug is established enough for it to not be a problem.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

engage757 said:


> The BUSINESS being legit I guess I can KIND of see though. But personally, I think Doug is established enough for it to not be a problem.



There you go you've said it yourself, clap clap clap. 

To you personally maybe it's acceptable to hand money over to people who do work cash in hand and don't declare their earnings, but i would rather do business with someone who has a legitimate business, declares their revenue and pays their taxes on it, thats how it should be. Honesty goes a long way, anyone in any kind of trade could be as good as they want but if they aren't legitimate and honest people then i don't want to put food on their table and their reputation goes out of the window too, oh and another little thing: TAX EVASION IS ILLEGAL AND A PUNISHABLE OFFENCE. Those are my morals, which are besides the point, so i will reiterate to you once again:

IT'S JUST A QUESTION, AND THE QUESTION IS:

*Is BlackMachine a registered business which declares it's earnings to Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs?*

That's all i want to know. It's a perfectly legitimate question, so stop rambling on about how it's none of my business, because in actual fact it is if you think about it carefully.. you could even say it's "my duty" as a British citizen to ask the question.


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## WillDfx (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> .. you could even say it's "my duty" as a British citizen to ask the question.


 
.. So where will your civilian duties take you after you learn this knowledge? WHAT THEN? WHAT WILL YOU DO!?


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## Amanita (Apr 8, 2013)

AVH said:


> This is flat-out incorrect. It _is_ necessary to re-radius slightly after the leveling process - particularly when doing a compound radius fret dress - before crowning and then polishing. I'm surprised you'd say that.


re-radius fretboard? 

Allen, my idea of fret levelling is removing the least amount of frets necessary to get a level plane of frets. then crown and polish.
i fail to see how carefully done levelling could mess up radius (if frets after levelling are flatter than a fretboard then i'd know i shaved off too much in the middle. or frets were really FUBAR to start with).


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

WillDfx said:


> .. So where will your civilian duties take you after you learn this knowledge? WHAT THEN? WHAT WILL YOU DO!?



Well who knows! Hence why i wrote "my duty".

I'm just asking a simple question, is it really that hard to fathom?


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## leonardo7 (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> That was a really interesting read, thanks for spending the time to give us some insight into how Blackmachine came to be along with your affiliation with Doug, its always interesting to look back 20 years or so and see how something has developed.
> 
> Though i have a few questions which no one else was able to answer and i reckon you might just be the guy to do it!
> 
> ...





-Berserker_ said:


> There you go you've said it yourself, clap clap clap.
> 
> To you personally maybe it's acceptable to hand money over to people who do work cash in hand and don't declare their earnings, but i would rather do business with someone who has a legitimate business, declares their revenue and pays their taxes on it, thats how it should be. Honesty goes a long way, anyone in any kind of trade could be as good as they want but if they aren't legitimate and honest people then i don't want to put food on their table and their reputation goes out of the window too, oh and another little thing: TAX EVASION IS ILLEGAL AND A PUNISHABLE OFFENCE. Those are my morals, which are besides the point, so i will reiterate to you once again:
> 
> ...



Its not just a question. The fact that you have even asked and in the manner that you have asked clearly indicates that you are implying that you know the answers and are motivated to expose something that you very well could be wrong about. Thats where you have clearly gone overboard and it was quite obvious from the very first time you asked in this thread. Regardless of what anyone tells you, you are already convinced that you know the answers. Since Doug is the only one to answer anyways, why ask us? I could say Yes but you wont believe me. Non of us care, therefore non of us know. This is very personal stuff you are asking. Give it a rest! It seems to me like you are simply bitter over the fact that you cant get a Blackmachine.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Its not just a question. The fact that you have even asked and in the manner that you have asked clearly indicates that you are implying that you know the answers and are motivated to expose something that you very well could be wrong about. Thats where you have clearly gone overboard and it was quite obvious from the very first time you asked in this thread. Regardless of what anyone tells you, you are already convinced that you know the answers. Since Doug is the only one to answer anyways, why ask us? I could say Yes but you wont believe me. Non of us care, therefore non of us know. This is very personal stuff you are asking. Give it a rest! It seems to me like you are simply bitter over the fact that you cant get a Blackmachine.



It is just a question and i just want someone to answer it. I don't believe i asked the question in any particular manner other than concise and straight forward. I don't consider this going overboard, as i said, I'm being concise and direct, there are people on this forum who can answer my question, the Luthier who is now working with Doug commented on this thread earlier this morning so i quoted his comment and asked the same question to him directly, i believe i did that in a friendly professional manner, after all it is just a question. Asking if a Business is registered is not that personal either, its not like I'm asking him what his NET take home was last year... that would be personal and anyone asking that should be rightly told to do one.

And the last point you made? Shallow and Pedantic at best, BlackMachines pop up from time to time on Gumtree (british version of craigslist) and Ebay i also live in the UK very close to London. So acquiring one wouldn't actually be that much of a problem for me, I think i actually posted a link to a B2 that was for sale on Gumtree in the last few months in one of the BlackMachine threads so anyone interested could enquire about it, i didn't have to do that, but i went out of my way to do it whilst at work, to contribute, to possibly make another members day.. can't remember if it was on SS.org or another forum though. I also don't buy things unless i need them and i don't need BlackMachine right now.

I'm not the guy you are making me out to be let me assure you of that, but thank you for your input anyway.

I just want my question to be answered.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 8, 2013)

Dafuq direction did this thread go in 

Here is some Blackmachine porn to get back on track:


















I can't wait to see what Doug has with him at Messe this week.


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## leonardo7 (Apr 8, 2013)

Those might be the 4 nicest Blackmachine's right there and some of the nicest guitars ever made! 

Add Nolly's quilt B2 and Doug's personal "highest spec" F8 and that just about covers his best 6 guitars to date IMO



-Berserker_ said:


> It is just a question and i just want someone to answer it. I don't believe i asked the question in any particular manner other than concise and straight forward. I don't consider this going overboard, as i said, I'm being concise and direct, there are people on this forum who can answer my question, the Luthier who is now working with Doug commented on this thread earlier this morning so i quoted his comment and asked the same question to him directly, i believe i did that in a friendly professional manner, after all it is just a question. Asking if a Business is registered is not that personal either, its not like I'm asking him what his NET take home was last year... that would be personal and anyone asking that should be rightly told to do one.
> 
> And the last point you made? Shallow and Pedantic at best, BlackMachines pop up from time to time on Gumtree (british version of craigslist) and Ebay i also live in the UK very close to London. So acquiring one wouldn't actually be that much of a problem for me, I think i actually posted a link to a B2 that was for sale on Gumtree in the last few months in one of the BlackMachine threads so anyone interested could enquire about it, i didn't have to do that, but i went out of my way to do it whilst at work, to contribute, to possibly make another members day.. can't remember if it was on SS.org or another forum though. I also don't buy things unless i need them and i don't need BlackMachine right now.
> 
> ...




I dont believe you.

First you ask but you dont say why. Then you say you want to know because you would want to know where your money is going should you ever purchase a guitar from Doug, as though its important enough to know because you are considering getting one from him. Then it sort of turns into you wanting to know so that others will be cautious of where their money is going should they ever deal with Doug. You even went from caring about where your personal money is going to "i don't need BlackMachine right now". You talk about not wanting your money going to tax evaders as though its a moral issue. Then you later on talk about how its a punishable offense and illegal. You have asked much more than a question. I am doing what is called "reading between the lines". This is not a court of law and I can speculate about what you say just as much as you can speculate as to how someone handles their personal financial decisions. You have hidden agendas and Im not buying into it.


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## Lorcan Ward (Apr 8, 2013)

This one? Its an absolute beast! I can't say I dig sapwood but the single piece quilt top was insane. 














This just might be the most insane spalt top I've ever seen:


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## possumkiller (Apr 8, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> why do you wanna know that?
> 
> i think he has to have registered the business since he sells his guitars by order.
> 
> ...


 
With the recent rash of builders taking people for a load of money, it seems that people can never be too careful. After all, you say it in your own signature. 

BRJ, invictus, ed roman. the list of shameless and shady brands goes on. always remember to do some backround checks. 

BRJ was supposedly well-known and established and reputable. Nobody knows what the future holds. If I were going to custom order a guitar from a small operation, I would definitely do my research on them before giving them my money. 

Not to mention the fact that Blackmachine is a business. Is tax information about a business public or private information?


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## MetalDaze (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> It is just a question and i just want someone to answer it.


 
The problem here is that you are asking the wrong people. Even if someone here did give you answer, why would you trust it? 

We are all just a bunch of guitar freaks after all 

I suggest contacting the company itself. No better answer than from the source


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## leonardo7 (Apr 8, 2013)

drawnacrol said:


> This one? Its an absolute beast! I can't say I dig sapwood but the single piece quilt top was insane.



Yes! This is according to Doug the "highest spec Blackmachine ever built".

Doug says he bought the maple quilt top well over ten years ago and estimates that all world stock has been depleted of a one piece quilt top that thick and with that figuring. He thinks that not even PRS has anything like it.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> I dont believe you.
> 
> First you say you want to know because you would want to know where your money is going should you ever purchase a guitar from Doug. Then it sort of turns into you wanting to know so that others will be cautious of where their money is going should they ever deal with Doug. You even went from caring about where your personal money is going to "i don't need BlackMachine right now". You talk about not wanting your money going to tax evaders, then you talk about how its a punishable offense and illegal. You have asked much more than a question. I am doing what is called "reading behind the lines". This is not a court of law and I can speculate about what you say just as much as you can speculate as to how someone handles their personal financial decisions. You have hidden agendas and Im not buying into it.



I never implied anyone should be cautious of dealing with BlackMachine at any stage, i was merely speculating in a theoretical manner using words such as "IF" referring to wether i wanted to ever make a purchase which i don't and "SHOULD" meaning "should something ever go wrong" which to my knowledge has never happened in the history of BlackMachine.

I did talk about not wanting my money to go to tax evaders and yes i did say tax evasion is illegal and that it is a punishable offence BUT i then said those were part of my moral values which were besides the point.

You can speculate and read between the lines all you like, i have nothing to hide or any hidden agendas and even if i did why would it be a bad thing for me to question it?

Lets pretend for example that BlackMachine is not a legitimate business and that they indeed evading tax, that is effectively theft of money which belongs to the government which is part of public funding, money which goes to schools, money which goes to those in need in the form of benefits, money which goes to help look after the elderly who have fought and worked hard to create this country...i think you understand what i'm getting at here and considering BlackMachines reputation as an elite guitar builder i would find it very disturbing if they were depriving those people of what they deserve. If you have a problem with this then you need to recalibrate your moral compass. Again let me reiterate that *this is theoretical and besides the point of my original question* i wouldn't have needed to explain myself so thoroughly had it not been for he comments of you and other members.

I have contacted the gentleman at Feline guitars in a PM so hopefully, as he works closely with Doug, he will be able to answer my questions.

Think what you want, i have been expansive enough in my answers, i've gone well out of my way to be as honest with you and concise as possible, my original question is valid, end of.


----------



## leonardo7 (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> I never implied anyone should be cautious of dealing with BlackMachine at any stage, i was merely speculating in a theoretical manner using words such as "IF" referring to wether i wanted to ever make a purchase which i don't and "SHOULD" meaning "should something ever go wrong" which to my knowledge has never happened in the history of BlackMachine.
> 
> I did talk about not wanting my money to go to tax evaders and yes i did say tax evasion is illegal and that it is a punishable offence BUT i then said those were part of my moral values which were besides the point.
> 
> ...



You do have an agenda, it is to expose something that could possibly be against your moral expectations alongside the law. I dont think you are asking for an answer. I think you are asking for proof! Honestly, even if John answers you with a simple "YES he does pay taxes" etc, then your going to ask for proof aren't you? Nobody wants to waste that kind of time with you so nobody is going to answer you. Its really a question for Doug and Doug only.


----------



## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

possumkiller said:


> With the recent rash of builders taking people for a load of money, it seems that people can never be too careful. After all, you say it in your own signature.
> 
> BRJ, invictus, ed roman. the list of shameless and shady brands goes on. always remember to do some backround checks.
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for this response, also i got this from the HMRC website

"If your turnover of VAT taxable goods and services supplied within the UK for the previous 12 months is more than the current registration threshold of £79,000, or you expect it to go over that figure in the next 30 days alone, you must register for VAT. However, if your turnover has gone over the registration threshold temporarily then you may be able to apply for exception from registration - see the section later in this guide for more information."

Also tax display information here:

"A VAT number is the registration number you will be issued upon correctly registering your business for VAT with HMRC. It should be displayed on your VAT invoices and receipts. It may also be displayed on your company/business website and stationery."

Thanks again


----------



## leonardo7 (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> Thank you so much for this response, also i got this from the HMRC website
> 
> "If your turnover of VAT taxable goods and services supplied within the UK for the previous 12 months is more than the current registration threshold of £79,000, or you expect it to go over that figure in the next 30 days alone, you must register for VAT. However, if your turnover has gone over the registration threshold temporarily then you may be able to apply for exception from registration - see the section later in this guide for more information."
> 
> ...



Blackmachine did not do 120K in sales in the past 12 months or in any 12 month period, so in seems as though you are shit out of luck on this one


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 8, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> Blackmachine did not do 120K in sales in the past 12 months so in seems as though you are shit out of luck on this one



I never said BlackMachine did. As i told you before, I was just asking a question, you and some of the other members caused me to go off on a theoretical tangent which derailed the thread from which which you are now leeching irrelevant comebacks from.

Seriously now Leonardo, you're done. By the way are you Italian? Leonardo is an Italian name


----------



## Watty (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> I never said BlackMachine did. As i told you before, I was just asking a question, you and some of the other members caused me to go off on a theoretical tangent which derailed the thread from which which you are now leeching irrelevant comebacks from.
> 
> Seriously now Leonardo, you're done. By the way are you Italian? Leonardo is an Italian name



Really?! 

On the wood question; I don't know that it's impossible to find a piece like that today. I'd inquired of a local place about something similar and they had something comparable (though not quite as nice); they were just asking way too much for it. All a question of how much you want to pay. There's that guy on eBay right now (also local, as luck would have it) who's got some KILLER pieces...but, again, he's been asking anywhere from $300 to $1300 for each one.


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## AwDeOh (Apr 8, 2013)

Ethical wood questions, fine. But if you want to know about Doug's taxes, the most appropriate thing to do is ring Doug, tell him you're a prospective customer, and ask him about his taxes. 

The least appropriate thing is asking us, here, in an online forum. That's pretty poor form.


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## ECGuitars (Apr 8, 2013)

Watty said:


> Really?!
> 
> On the wood question; I don't know that it's impossible to find a piece like that today. I'd inquired of a local place about something similar and they had something comparable (though not quite as nice); they were just asking way too much for it. All a question of how much you want to pay. There's that guy on eBay right now (also local, as luck would have it) who's got some KILLER pieces...but, again, he's been asking anywhere from $300 to $1300 for each one.



It's definitely not impossible to find a piece like that. It's a SPECTACULAR piece but "new pieces like this never coming up again" is just plain BS.


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## BlackStar7 (Apr 8, 2013)

Those are some astonishingly pretty guitars. Despite however challenging it may be to actually get one, does anyone have any idea what Doug's asking price on the B6 is these days?


----------



## engage757 (Apr 8, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> I never implied anyone should be cautious of dealing with BlackMachine at any stage, i was merely speculating in a theoretical manner using words such as "IF" referring to wether i wanted to ever make a purchase which i don't and "SHOULD" meaning "should something ever go wrong" which to my knowledge has never happened in the history of BlackMachine.
> 
> I did talk about not wanting my money to go to tax evaders and yes i did say tax evasion is illegal and that it is a punishable offence BUT i then said those were part of my moral values which were besides the point.
> 
> ...



Since you don't "need Blackmachine", then the answer doesn't matter, is completely irrelevant to the only person that cares about it. You. Why waste Jon's time asking him about Doug's personal finances when you aren't getting one or trying to anyway?


----------



## engage757 (Apr 8, 2013)

BlackStar7 said:


> Those are some astonishingly pretty guitars. Despite however challenging it may be to actually get one, does anyone have any idea what Doug's asking price on the B6 is these days?



Close to $3500. ROughly.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 9, 2013)

engage757 said:


> Since you don't "need Blackmachine", then the answer doesn't matter, is completely irrelevant to the only person that cares about it. You. Why waste Jon's time asking him about Doug's personal finances when you aren't getting one or trying to anyway?


 
We can argue about this for another month, I'm going to stick with my original statement that im just asking a question, i think a lot of people on here are very paranoid and maybe think i'm a tax man in disguise, i'm not at all and i do not have "ill intentions".

It's not actually illegal to own an unregistered business here in the UK as i said it was just a question, seeing as BlackMachine is a one man show (with the help of Feline guitars) then it actually makes sense that BlackMachine stays unregistered but there are ofcourse disadvantages for both the business owner and customers with this just like there are advantages to registering a business which actually provides the business owner with a limited amount of legal cover and the customer with peace of mind *NOT THAT THIS HAS EVER BEEN AN ISSUE WITH BLACKMACHINE*

It's clear that i will not be getting an answer, i was hoping some of you would know and that Feline guitars might answer me but i'll just have to draw my own conclusion that the likelyhood is that no, BlackMachine is not a registered business and thats fine. It's just disappointing that i met so much hostility and opposition over something so trivial!

I'd like to thank Engage and leonardo for their responses despite them having a warped image of what my "supposed" intentions are despite my continuous efforts to show them thats not the case at all and that there is no hidden agenda.

Have a nice day guys


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## FelineGuitars (Apr 9, 2013)

Let me reply and be polite about it.

The truth is that I don't know about much of Doug's monetary affairs - nor would I ask him about such things.
&#8232;So Im not avoiding the question, I actually dont know, but even if I did know his affairs it is not my place to discuss them with others.&#8232;
If you feel you need to know you would have to ask him yourself.
Also you seem to have an axe to grind against a good friend of mine, so Im not exactly keen to assist you.

For the record I am a registered business, file my taxes and pay HMRC should I actually make enough money to do so (and my accountant) - not that it is any business of yours.

As you have said you are not ever going to be in the market for a Blackmachine - so why should it bother you so much? 
You have also stated yourself in your previous postings that you would never pay over £1000 for a guitar and that is fine - there are plenty of excellent production guitars that you will enjoy.
But why the "campaign of mistrust against those who try to scrape a living from being craftsmen in a very difficult economic climate.?
_It's like you're not content with your own personal decision to not buy an expensive guitar, and that you have to spread mistrust and ill feelings amongst others who might be considering doing so._

I have no interest in engaging in a discussion or debate on this - I have better things to do like get on with building and repairing guitars. &#8232;

Ive only recently come back to The Seven String Guitar Authority - Sevenstring.org after having correspondence with some of the other nice members on here, but if its going to be hostile like this, I wont bother.

For the record anyone buying one of the new B6s will be invoiced by myself acting as the retailer and it will be shipped from myself.
They will have a proper legal contract for the goods the same as if you were buying anything from a any other reputable shop on the high street. 
&#8232;I get to pay Doug, for materials and parts and other bills etc - all above board.
&#8232;
*Can we get back to talking nice stuff about guitars again now....*


----------



## narad (Apr 9, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> And the last point you made? Shallow and Pedantic


----------



## -Berserker_ (Apr 9, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> Let me reply and be polite about it.
> 
> The truth is that I don't know about much of Doug's monetary affairs - nor would I ask him about such things.
> &#8232;So Im not avoiding the question, I actually dont know, but even if I did know his affairs it is not my place to discuss them with others.&#8232;
> ...



Hi John,

Thank you so much for your response, i see you've done some research but just like other members of this forum you have constructed a false opinion based on my comments or what other members have told you by "reading between the lines", you have fabricated an opinion in your own head that I'm out to get someone, there's no campaign of mistrust, no hidden agendas and certainly *no intention of hindering the excellent reputation that BlackMachine has built up over years of reliable customer service*. I have been very careful in the way i wrote each comment and very careful not to give any negative feedback of any sort.

The truth is that i have been on the BlackMachine homepage and saw no ISO certifications and no watermarks stating it was a registered business, also in the contact details there is only one e-mail address (I've had e-mails bounce back from it in the past so thats one of the reasons why i didn't bother going directly to Doug other than the fact he's very busy running a business like yourself) no contact number not even a name to reference (apart from an initial), thats why i asked the question "is the business registered/VAT registered" on this forum and also because some members seem to be very familiar with Doug, so whether or not i intend to purchase a BlackMachine doesn't even come into it, it was purely out of curiosity over something i stumbled across on his very own website.

The questions i posed were purely for the sake of information, nothing more!!
*Do you really think that if i intended on damaging Doug's reputation i would do it on an internet forum? No, i would of reported him straight to HMRC with an anonymous tip and let them lead the investigation quietly, do i get my point across now?* Do you not see that i am honestly just asking a simple no strings attached question?

I'm sorry you feel this way John i truly am, but any problem you have with anything i have said is because of your misinterpretation of the information and therefore your own doing with the help of other forum members who have attacked me relentlessly for this.

I truly wish you and Doug the best in life and business and i am truly sorry that you feel the way you do about my questions. Lets hope the economy picks up soon or we're all going to drown under the inflation, yeah, you're not the only person feeling the strain, i work three job roles at the same company and barely get paid fairly for my original job! 

I hope i have been expansive enough to anyone reading this. There's no need to keep going on about it, as far as I'm concerned i got the answer i was looking for, and John is right, let's all just play nice and not jump at each others throat anymore


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## teleofseven (Apr 9, 2013)

first he comes off as a loudmouth. 
then kisses ass. 

EDIT: i meant you berserker.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 9, 2013)

teleofseven said:


> first he comes off as a loudmouth.
> then kisses ass.
> 
> EDIT: i meant you berserker.



I know you did and thats fine, everybody is entitled to their own opinions.

EDIT: I just felt a bit sorry for you so i thought i'd like your comment and give you some positive rep anyway despite your foul language


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## AwDeOh (Apr 9, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> Ive only recently come back to The Seven String Guitar Authority - Sevenstring.org after having correspondence with some of the other nice members on here, but if its going to be hostile like this, I wont bother.








This rubbish about Doug's taxes is definitely not representative of the forum dude.


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## ECGuitars (Apr 9, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> Let me reply and be polite about it.
> 
> The truth is that I don't know about much of Doug's monetary affairs - nor would I ask him about such things.
> &#8232;So Im not avoiding the question, I actually dont know, but even if I did know his affairs it is not my place to discuss them with others.&#8232;
> ...



The forum is a great place man, don't let one loudmouth ruin it for you!


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## FelineGuitars (Apr 9, 2013)

Thanks guys - I'm just a guitar fanatic like the rest of you at the end of the day.


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 9, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> Thanks guys - I'm just a guitar fanatic like the rest of you at the end of the day.



As am i, i hope we can put our differences behind us John.

EDIT: Same goes to any members i may have clashed with.


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## capoeiraesp (Apr 9, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> The questions i posed were purely for the sake of information, nothing more!!
> *Do you really think that if i intended on damaging Doug's reputation i would do it on an internet forum? No, i would of reported him straight to HMRC with an anonymous tip and let them lead the investigation quietly, do i get my point across now?* Do you not see that i am honestly just asking a simple no strings attached question?



Berserker, please don't use the term 'would of' when trying to have an intelligent argument.


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## Watty (Apr 9, 2013)

capoeiraesp said:


> Berserker, please don't use the term 'would of' when trying to have an intelligent argument.



Let alone all the other errors in his post. 

Berker, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Even those completely "honest" and "by the book" businesses still do shady things every second of every day in an effort to advance their profits and reach with their consumers. Regardless of whether Doug is "registered" or not (I'd be inclined to believe yes), there's NO NEED WHATSOEVER to discuss it on an online forum where misinformation is the order of the day; i.e. Doug doesn't post here and you've done a good job alienating the ONLY person with real, reliable evidence to answer your question truthfully.


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## Danukenator (Apr 9, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


>



I DID agree with this part.


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## Speculum Speculorum (Apr 10, 2013)

I've been mostly hanging out at FAS Forums trying to get my head wrapped around the new firmware. I come back here and I see 7 pages of this shit.

How the fucking fuck did this thread spiral out in such a weird way?


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## BlackStar7 (Apr 10, 2013)

How I feel about the last two and a half pages of this thread


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 10, 2013)

Watty said:


> Let alone all the other errors in his post.
> 
> Berker, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Even those completely "honest" and "by the book" businesses still do shady things every second of every day in an effort to advance their profits and reach with their consumers. Regardless of whether Doug is "registered" or not (I'd be inclined to believe yes), there's NO NEED WHATSOEVER to discuss it on an online forum where misinformation is the order of the day; i.e. Doug doesn't post here and you've done a good job alienating the ONLY person with real, reliable evidence to answer your question truthfully.


 
Apologies, English is actually my second language.

Ok Watty, fair enough, but as i've reapeated over and over again, it was a simple question and was not meant to insinuate anything about Doug and his business, the other members of the forum did that by questioning my reasons for asking the question in the first place and by "reading between the lines" i was just defending myself against those attacks. I don't see how this thread has alienated him in any way other than in the minds of those who are just plain paranoid and refuse to accept that there's nothing malicious going on, as i said, if that was truly my intention i would have sought other ways of doing it like going straight to HMRC. 

I will not be asking any questions anymore, its not worth the hassle and insults that come with posting here, i honestly thought i'd get an answer as you all seem like knowledgeable people, which i am sure some of you are, but some of you are seriously paranoid and just damn right unhelpful and rude at times. I've lost interest in this Forum and will probably ask for my account to be removed.

Anyway, thank you for your insight Watty.


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## SDMFVan (Apr 10, 2013)

leonardo7 said:


> drawnacrol said:
> 
> 
> > This one? Its an absolute beast! I can't say I dig sapwood but the single piece quilt top was insane.
> ...



PRS just made this one, it's for sale at The Guitar Shop:










The Guitar Shop - PS#4096 ~~~MANGO #2~~~


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## Paul Reed Shred (Apr 10, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> Apologies, English is actually my second language.
> 
> Ok Watty, fair enough, but as i've reapeated over and over again, it was a simple question and was not meant to insinuate anything about Doug and his business, the other members of the forum did that by questioning my reasons for asking the question in the first place and by "reading between the lines" i was just defending myself against those attacks. I don't see how this thread has alienated him in any way other than in the minds of those who are just plain paranoid and refuse to accept that there's nothing malicious going on, as i said, if that was truly my intention i would have sought other ways of doing it like going straight to HMRC.
> 
> ...



You sir, are why we cannot have nice things and why it is harder than a catholic priest in a childcare center to get in touch with doug for any purposes at all. Unless you're over his shoulder as he runs up his finances for the week, or more in touch with him than previous first-hand owners or acquaintances, please just go. Your passive-agression and idiocy are both palpable and contemptible man


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## FelineGuitars (Apr 10, 2013)

SDMFVan said:


> PRS just made this one, it's for sale at The Guitar Shop:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh my - that's pretty!


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## USMarine75 (Apr 10, 2013)

Does Doug wear boxers or briefs? "I have contacted the gentleman at Feline guitars in a PM so hopefully, as he works closely with Doug, he will be able to answer my questions." 

[sorry I havent posted in like a year , so I figured I'd begin with some mild semi-trolling of Beserker]

Semi-relevant analogy time... I hate Gibson guitars. I think they are way overpriced for what you get and they pretty much rely on star power and historical popularity. That's just my honest opinion. *BUT*... I wouldn't go on the Les Paul forum and start shitting on them. Redundantly repeating the same stuff over and over again.... then wondering why everyone is getting all butthurt at me. *Know your audience.* Is it really that hard for you to see why everyone is pissed off?

As someone who hasn't tried a Blackmachine guitar, all I can say is this - Doug has built up a fantastic word-of-mouth _*only*_ reputation for excellence around these parts. Blackmachines aren't everyone's cup of tea... I remember people on here saying they were spartan, too thin, and had Parker rip-off headstocks. But, to his credit, I don't remember anyone ever disparaging Doug's ethics and zeal. So it does come across as off-putting and untoward when someone who's only been here for 6 months (and has half his posts from this thread) asking dubious questions about the man's credibility and ethics, when there has been no hint at him lacking in these areas. That said, you have a valid point. Some people don't mind their unlicensed buddy fixing an electrical problem in their house... me, I'd like a licensed electrician. So you are absolutely entitled to your position. But it's not what you said, it's how you said it, and how you continued to defend it afterwards. 

Also, when a mea culpa comes across as insincere, it is usually viewed as worse than the original sin. 

Lastly, and before you rile the masses and earn a perma-ban... this site is an invaluable source of info, reviews, tips, community, news, sales, etc. I would never have heard of/bought Bodenhamer boost pedals if not for this site. I wouldn't know of BKP pickups, bands like Red Seas Fire and Pagan's Mind, Stealth's mom, Mayones guitars,... ad infinitum! It took me awhile to get the hang of the P&CE forum and how to convey my opinions _without_ coming across sounding like I'm trolling and trying to shit on other people's opinions. It would be worth it IMO for you to do the same. 

Anywho, just my opinion...


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## -Berserker_ (Apr 10, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> You sir, are why we cannot have nice things and why it is harder than a catholic priest in a childcare center to get in touch with doug for any purposes at all. Unless you're over his shoulder as he runs up his finances for the week, or more in touch with him than previous first-hand owners or acquaintances, please just go. Your passive-agression and idiocy are both palpable and contemptible man


 
PAHAHAHAHAH! You reckon it's because of me that you find it hard to get hold of BlackMachine? really? One person asking one question? I mean you can obviously do your own research, but are you able to use facts? Hmmm you sir, despite the correct use of the standard English language, are quite obviously just another pompous little twat. One of many active on this forum. Are any of you aware of the reputation SS.org has out there in the real world? pull your heads out of your asses and take a look!!

As i said before it was just a question and i got my answer, there's no need to comment back with snarling messages like yours, actually why am i even bothering to explain myself to you or anyone else? There's no need! I know i was asking a legitimate question so if you have a problem with that, it's your problem.

I have asked a moderator to remove my account. For what its worth i hope you enjoy your new Blackmachine but part of me hopes you get cancer from any sawdust residue and die. 

Fuckety bye


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## Captain Butterscotch (Apr 10, 2013)




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## -Berserker_ (Apr 10, 2013)

USMarine75 said:


> Does Doug wear boxers or briefs? "I have contacted the gentleman at Feline guitars in a PM so hopefully, as he works closely with Doug, he will be able to answer my questions."
> 
> [sorry I havent posted in like a year , so I figured I'd begin with some mild semi-trolling of Beserker]
> 
> ...


 
Thanks you for your response, you are obviously one of the smarter people on here... but i don't want to be part of this forum any longer.

Any mods reading this if you could please permanently ban me or remove my account it would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Paul Reed Shred (Apr 10, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> PAHAHAHAHAH! You reckon it's because of me that you find it hard to get hold of BlackMachine? really? One person asking one question? I mean you can obviously do your own research, but are you able to use facts? Hmmm you sir, despite the correct use of the standard English language, are quite obviously just another pompous little twat. One of many active on this forum. Are any of you aware of the reputation SS.org has out there in the real world? pull your heads out of your asses and take a look!!
> 
> As i said before it was just a question and i got my answer, there's no need to comment back with snarling messages like yours, actually why am i even bothering to explain myself to you or anyone else? There's no need! I know i was asking a legitimate question so if you have a problem with that, it's your problem.
> 
> ...



don't let the door hit your ass on the way out          


edit: sorry about all this. thought it would stay mature...


----------



## teleofseven (Apr 10, 2013)

Paul Reed Shred said:


> edit: sorry about all this. thought it would stay mature...



no worries, he's gone now and we can get back on the topic. finally.

i never knew a person could be a loudmouth, kiss-ass, hater, and wanting to delete his own account (bitching on his way out...wtf for real!?).

crazy people. why they so cray? 

n-e-way. best wishes to doug and FelineGuitars! you guys make some of the best instruments i know. 

it never hurts to go a little OCD when it's about quality


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## SDMFVan (Apr 10, 2013)

How cool would it be if FelineGuitars did a build thread on a B6? (hint hint)


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## Steinmetzify (Apr 10, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> PAHAHAHAHAH! You reckon it's because of me that you find it hard to get hold of BlackMachine? really? One person asking one question? I mean you can obviously do your own research, but are you able to use facts? *Hmmm you sir, despite the correct use of the standard English language, are quite obviously just another pompous little twat. One of many active on this forum. Are any of you aware of the reputation SS.org has out there in the real world? pull your heads out of your asses and take a look!!*
> 
> As i said before it was just a question and i got my answer, there's no need to comment back with snarling messages like yours, actually why am i even bothering to explain myself to you or anyone else? There's no need! I know i was asking a legitimate question so if you have a problem with that, it's your problem.
> 
> ...


 
Nothing of value to add in this thread, except that this was funny, and that BM guitars look awesome.

To the OP: hope you get it, man. Seems like it would be a great guitar. Way to be mature on the internet when so many of your age-related peers can't even seem to spell anything correctly. Post up your thoughts and review, as I and many others are interested.

LMAO at "the reputation SS.org has out there in the real world"....if people are that concerned about a reputation an online forum has, it's time to shut the computer off and go the fuck outside for a while. Jeebus.


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## Danukenator (Apr 10, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> Are any of you aware of the reputation SS.org has out there in the real world? pull your heads out of your asses and take a look!!



 Given the conduct in threads on other forums about bashing how they were banned, I don't care what the "reputation" is.

This is a place for people to hang out in their free time, chat about guitars and not worry about troll due to excellent moderation. PLUS, this is the internet so who cares?

EDIT: Lol, I guess he can go join the other forums now!


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## canuck brian (Apr 10, 2013)

Doug makes cool guitars. 

Nothing more to add here.


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## AwDeOh (Apr 10, 2013)

canuck brian said:


> Doug makes cool guitars.
> 
> Nothing more to add here.



Pot calls the kettle black. 

For a guy who doesn't really seem to do much advertising, marketing, or putting his guitars out into the community and into the hands of bands with the intention of raising his profile.. there may just be something legitimately alright about BlackMachine.

Add to that the BM haters, which is a good sign. Keith Merrow said in one of his videos that he was told by (can't remember who, someone in a well known band) that you're nobody until people on the internet hate you.


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## narad (Apr 10, 2013)

-Berserker_ said:


> Any mods reading this if you could please permanently ban me or remove my account it would be greatly appreciated.



"You can't fire me -- I quit!"


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## hairychris (Apr 12, 2013)

Nice flounce! 

Sorry for getting you involved in this sorry mess, Jonathan!


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## Malkav (Apr 12, 2013)

AwDeOh said:


> Add to that the BM haters, which is a good sign. Keith Merrow said in one of his videos that he was told by (can't remember who, someone in a well known band) that you're nobody until people on the internet hate you.


 
I don't wanna speak out of turn, but I believe it was Willy Adler from Lamb Of God - This was when Adler first reached out to Keith saying that he dug his music, and I believe there were plans for them to write/jam together but I don't know if anything ever came of that.


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## FelineGuitars (Apr 12, 2013)

hairychris said:


> Nice flounce!
> 
> Sorry for getting you involved in this sorry mess, Jonathan!



I just stayed out of the mud-flinging - apart from a simple request for him to play nice, and a clarification of our trading arrangements.
I don't like or respond well to threats - whether direct or veiled.

Nobody had any doubt that the underlying message he was saying was an intention to cause trouble or ripples in the working patterns of a craftsman who many here respect.
(and you didn't have to be reading between the lines or stretching your imagination too far to come to that conclusion - in spite of his denials)

When challenged he gave a response of *"sorry English is my second language"* - but he seemed proficient enough in English and well versed with aspects of UK trading laws that even many in business would have to read up on to know the specifics of.
That just didn't ring true & he just came across as a nasty piece of work in almost every post he made.

I mean who, when looking at guitar sites goes looking first and foremost for the company registration info, whether there is a VAT registration number etc. 
Especially if they are by their own admission not in the market for a guitar from that maker.

I would suspect that he was either working for the tax office or suchlike.

I did wonder if it was a second (or sock-puppet) account for another guitar maker who wanted to do a competitor some damage, which is a terrible thing to contemplate (and maybe a touch paranoid too) 
*maybe if the moderators of this site checked the IP address that he was posting from it might reveal that he had another "official" account on this website.*

Anyway - I have better things to do doing than meddle with people like that - like making some awesome guitars, and repairing and upgrading existing guitars to play to their best capabilities.

'll start with these:


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## Francis978 (Apr 12, 2013)

DAT wood!


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## Necromagnon (Apr 12, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> I mean who, when looking at guitar sites goes looking first and foremost for the company registration info, whether there is a VAT registration number etc.
> Especially if they are by their own admission not in the market for a guitar from that maker.


I'm sure Invictus, Devries, Rotter, etc. have VAT numbers.


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## FelineGuitars (Apr 12, 2013)

If your turnover is over £79,000 then you need to register for VAT
If your business is small and turnover is less than that in a 12 month period then it is unlikely that you would be registered for VAT - unless the nature of your business made it advantageous to do so for example if the companies who you send invoices to be paid are also big companies who are VAT registered then it makes sense as you can claim back the VAT you paid on stuff you have had to buy in to do the work that you do .

If you have a low turnover, don't buy a lot of stuff in and the customer is a member of the public - it is usually better not not have to register until you are reaching that threshold.

To be working as a sole trader as many small business owners choose to be - means that you won't be registered at companies house as you would be if you were trading as a Ltd Liability company. You will still be paying income tax and submit accounts to HMRC. 
Many choose to become a limited liability company for a number of reasons ranging from taxation advantages if Corporation tax is lower than income tax or if they maybe own a house and don't want to risk losing it if their business fails and they go bankrupt owing people lots of money. (the reason it is called a limited liability ....think in USA it gets called LLC, European countries will have their own versions of it)


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## Paul Reed Shred (Apr 12, 2013)

FelineGuitars said:


> I'll start with these:




aww hell man, I really need Musikmesse to be over so I can get in touch with doug and throw y'all my money


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## hairychris (Apr 12, 2013)

Oh yeah, by the way...  Jonathan @ Feline.

Great luthier, great tech, and whenever I go visit it takes 2 hours to leave due to epic quality shooting of the shit!

Winning.

You're anywhere near London/UK.... Dude's a fretting god.


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## Pikka Bird (Apr 12, 2013)

So a guy looks away for just a moment and the thread goes totally heywire with inappropriate personal prying? Boy, that escalated quickly.



-Berserker_ said:


> ...theft of money...


 
...that most heinous of crimes.



drawnacrol said:


>


It's a little bit of a bummer that the pickup baseplates apparently require those routs to be rectangular instead of the (IMO) more aesthetically pleasing parallelogram.


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