# Metal 5150 tones: Friedman BE vs. 5150 stealth vs. block letter vs LBX



## narad (Apr 26, 2018)

So I'm wondering if anyone has compared a good set of these in the context of classic 5150 metal tones. Basically I'd really like something to get those old death metal sounds that were almost all 5150/EMGs, and trying to find the amp that's most justifiable. I throw these up since they all kind of brown sound based amps, but they're not often compared from the perspective of metal. Basically as I see it:

Friedman: Cleans I would use. Midgain tones that are amazing. Metal? I'm not sure. I'd probably get the BE-50. Expensive.

5150 stealth: Sounds amazing for high gain / metal, but not impressed by the rest. Expensive for just a high gain sound.

Block letter: Hard to find in good condition, but can definitely do the metal sound and are overall pretty cheap. Cheap enough to justify just for the iconic sound.

LBX: Easy to find, cheap, convenient. Downsides: EL84s. I just can't trust EL84s to deliver that sound... am I wrong?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 26, 2018)

A Friedman can do metal no problem. Just don't know if it would be in the vein of a 5150. It's more like a Marshall meets a Mesa. 

Have you checked out the PRS Mark Tremonti amp? Seems like it would cover that ground. Great clean, great dirt, 6L6 tubes.


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## narad (Apr 26, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> A Friedman can do metal no problem. Just don't know if it would be in the vein of a 5150. It's more like a Marshall meets a Mesa.
> 
> Have you checked out the PRS Mark Tremonti amp? Seems like it would cover that ground. Great clean, great dirt, 6L6 tubes.



Huh, that's interesting. I recall an opinion that they weren't any good, but I might have just dreamt that after reading the boards before bedtime  Does sound good on youtube so far...


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## Wizard of Ozz (Apr 26, 2018)

KSR Gemini

It'll do it all. Much better solution all around.


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## op1e (Apr 26, 2018)

This is why I have an MTS rig. Marshall, Fender and ENGL loaded in the 3 slots. And I run a 6505mh with my loop switcher for a 4th channel. They make an S1S0 module (or a Trilogy if you can find one) that cover the sound of the I/II/III versions of the 5150. I would have gotten that instead of the MH but I wanted a portable rig for short sets and out of towners.


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## op1e (Apr 26, 2018)

I picked up an unloaded rm100 for $350. You can find them all day with 1 or 2 modules in them 450-550.


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## narad (Apr 26, 2018)

Wizard of Ozz said:


> KSR Gemini
> 
> It'll do it all. Much better solution all around.



Oh yea, the Gemini is on the list already for sure. Would it actually cop those old ... maybe In Flames sort of 5150 tones, or would it be more its own thing? I'm jus curious because if chasing the brown sound with KSR amps, it would probably make more sense to go with the Juno, so -- having no hands on experience -- I could see the case being more easily made that the Juno would be closer to the old 5150 sound.



op1e said:


> This is why I have an MTS rig. Marshall, Fender and ENGL loaded in the 3 slots. And I run a 6505mh with my loop switcher for a 4th channel. They make an S1S0 module (or a Trilogy if you can find one) that cover the sound of the I/II/III versions of the 5150. I would have gotten that instead of the MH but I wanted a portable rig for short sets and out of towners.



Ah, there's just something I feel like isn't 100% there with the MTS or synergy system. I love the idea, and the 5150 is super pre-ampy, which is probably a large part of why the LBX can pull off something similar, but I haven't heard anything that's really felt right. Do you have any clips? But yea, I'm fortunate in basically having a marshall, and fender, and engl amp here, just looking to fill that 5150 niche.


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## Cynicanal (Apr 26, 2018)

narad said:


> Basically I'd really like something to get those old death metal sounds that were almost all 5150/EMGs, and trying to find the amp that's most justifiable.


Unless your idea of "old" death metal is very different than mine, most of the old death metal bands were recording their first and second albums before the 5150 even existed. Most of that stuff was JCM800s for the bands that could afford it, Vavestates or solid-state Ampegs for the ones that couldn't.


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## narad (Apr 26, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> Unless your idea of "old" death metal is very different than mine, most of the old death metal bands were recording their first and second albums before the 5150 even existed. Most of that stuff was JCM800s for the bands that could afford it, Vavestates or solid-state Ampegs for the ones that couldn't.



More like swedish melodeath stuff.


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

A lot of that stuff was done with an MT-2 into the clean channel of a JCM900 (what amp you use for your clean channel isn't all that important, as long as it takes pedals well). Run the pedal's mid-point high (nearly maxed; to find the right frequency, max the mids knob and sweep around, you'll know the bad frequency when you hear it, put the mid-point there so you can scoop those bees out) and the mids very low (near zero; again, the goal is to notch the bad frequency), level, bass, and treble at around noon (bass a bit lower and treble a bit higher for that colder sound like "Lunar Strain" or "The Gallery"), and the gain at a reasonable value. Lasse Lammert did a demo that shows just how good "MT-2 into clean amp" can sound, despite its terrible reputation:


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Apr 27, 2018)

I own a Block Letter and 5153 50w and have spent some time with the LBX. Block Letter gets my vote every time for sheer brutalz 

Never tried a Friedman, but the BE-50 seems promising for heavy sounds, albeit much more Marshall flavored. Also on the Marshall-ish side, there's the Überschall Twin Jet. I love mine to death, and it's the only amp I've heard get more raunchy/aggressive than my Block Letter. Around 3x the price used compared to an OG 5150, but man, it's got that fire  no cleans on it, but the second channel is another nice flavor of hot-rodded medium to high gain


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## gunch (Apr 27, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> A lot of that stuff was done with an MT-2 into the clean channel of a JCM900 (what amp you use for your clean channel isn't all that important, as long as it takes pedals well). Run the pedal's mid-point high (nearly maxed; to find the right frequency, max the mids knob and sweep around, you'll know the bad frequency when you hear it, put the mid-point there so you can scoop those bees out) and the mids very low (near zero; again, the goal is to notch the bad frequency), level, bass, and treble at around noon (bass a bit lower and treble a bit higher for that colder sound like "Lunar Strain" or "The Gallery"), and the gain at a reasonable value. Lasse Lammert did a demo that shows just how good "MT-2 into clean amp" can sound, despite its terrible reputation:




Think you have the HM2 mixed up with with the MT2


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

From Friedman, I'd think the Butterslax would be a much more natural candidate for this than the BE.

@silverabyss -- nope, I meant MT2. The Stockholm guys used the HM2, but not the Gothenberg guys (aside from At the Gates on Slaughter of the Soul, who used it as a boost for an MT2). First (and possibly second?) In Flames album, both classic Dissection albums, all of the Dan Swano produced Sacramentum albums, first two Dark Tranquility albums, etc -- all of that stuff was Metal Zone into clean channel.


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## gunch (Apr 27, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> From Friedman, I'd think the Butterslax would be a much more natural candidate for this than the BE.
> 
> @silverabyss -- nope, I meant MT2. The Stockholm guys used the HM2, but not the Gothenberg guys (aside from At the Gates on Slaughter of the Soul, who used it as a boost for an MT2).



Damn you're right, I thought you were talking about the Gothenburg guys _as_ the Stockholm/ Sunlight Studio guys 

Damn I love the SotS tone, it's seriously a MT2 boosted with a HM2? What where they using as an amp?


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

The SotS amp, like everything else done at Sunlight Studios, was a Peavey solid state. Exactly which one is debated -- some people claim Bandit, some people claim Supreme 160 -- but everyone agrees it was the clean channel of a solid state. The MT-2 with the HM2 boosting it was the real key to the sound, though. Also, a funky homemade cab was used on SotS, with two 12-inch speakers and two 10-inch speakers.


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## narad (Apr 27, 2018)

Yea, I don't doubt the MT2 as I used one for years and years, and will probably get another once I get my throne torcher fixed. But for the sake of this topic, if anything can do the 5150 sound, which I feel is the better sound overall (if not playing At the Gates), then that's what Im' curious about.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 27, 2018)

The lbx is great for recording and practice. EL84s definitely have a sweet spot that’s lower volume then a pair of 6l6s.


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## sylcfh (Apr 27, 2018)

If you can't do metal by boosting a BE-100, you should probably switch to drums.


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

Well, obviously, nothing is going to sound more like a 5150 than a 5150, and if you're worried about how well an old block letter has been kept, the only difference between the block letter and the 6505 (not-plus version) is the tubes it shipped with.

I've also got a Twin Jet, and while to my ears it doesn't sound much like a 5150 (I'd say it's more like a Recto with more percussive punch [but don't take "more percussive than a Recto" to mean "tight and dry like a Freyette" or something, we're still talking one really saturated amp]; it's got a bigger bottom than a 5150, and seems a bit darker and scoopier in general), it'll certainly get as mean as you want it to. I'd compare its sound more to something like Immolation on "Unholy Cult" than anything Swedish, though.


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## NinjaRaf (Apr 27, 2018)

If you want metal, the regular ass 5150/6505 is the one to get. I have owned 7 Peavey 5150/6505s in various formats, a 5153 Stealth, and a 5153 50 watt, and the one that I still have is a 5150 212 combo converted to a head. The Peaveys have an aggressive ass gain structure that the 5153s do not have.

Also, why limit yourself to a block letter? 100% the same circuit as the signature 5150s and the 6505s, only difference was the stock tubes at the time. You are just going to pay more for a block letter because of snake oil claims by internet guys trying to get more for their amp than its worth. This has all been confirmed a few times by FJA, and recently by James Brown himself in a tone talk video that you can find on youtube.


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## KailM (Apr 27, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> From Friedman, I'd think the Butterslax would be a much more natural candidate for this than the BE.
> 
> @silverabyss -- nope, I meant MT2. The Stockholm guys used the HM2, but not the Gothenberg guys (aside from At the Gates on Slaughter of the Soul, who used it as a boost for an MT2). First (and possibly second?) In Flames album, both classic Dissection albums, all of the Dan Swano produced Sacramentum albums, first two Dark Tranquility albums, etc -- all of that stuff was Metal Zone into clean channel.


 
In Flames' Jester Race and Whoracle also used HM-2s + MT2s. Into a Peavey Bandit, I believe. You can hear the HM-2 in there if you listen; it just wasn't used as aggressively as ATG did on Slaughter. I love the tone on all those albums. IMO that sound has never been beaten.


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## KailM (Apr 27, 2018)

NinjaRaf said:


> If you want metal, the regular ass 5150/6505 is the one to get. I have owned 7 Peavey 5150/6505s in various formats, a 5153 Stealth, and a 5153 50 watt, and the one that I still have is a 5150 212 combo converted to a head. The Peaveys have an aggressive ass gain structure that the 5153s do not have.
> 
> Also, why limit yourself to a block letter? 100% the same circuit as the signature 5150s and the 6505s, only difference was the stock tubes at the time. You are just going to pay more for a block letter because of snake oil claims by internet guys trying to get more for their amp than its worth. This has all been confirmed a few times by FJA, and recently by James Brown himself in a tone talk video that you can find on youtube.



I came here to literally post exactly this. Why seek an old-ass "block letter" when a 6505 is IDENTICAL? I bought my 2013 6505 last year for $600 and it has _exactly_ the same tone as an older 5150, block letter or otherwise. The added benefit is it won't need a cap job for a long, long time. The earliest 5150s came with better tubes (Sylvanias). If you can find a block letter with original tubes that has somehow sat for 20 years without being played, maybe it'll sound better than a 6505. Or you could just get some nice tubes for a 6505 and rock out.


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## mnemonic (Apr 27, 2018)

KailM said:


> I came here to literally post exactly this. Why seek an old-ass "block letter" when a 6505 is IDENTICAL? I bought my 2013 6505 last year for $600 and it has _exactly_ the same tone as an older 5150, block letter or otherwise. The added benefit is it won't need a cap job for a long, long time. The earliest 5150s came with better tubes (Sylvanias). If you can find a block letter with original tubes that has somehow sat for 20 years without being played, maybe it'll sound better than a 6505. Or you could just get some nice tubes for a 6505 and rock out.



The kicker is, if you find an original 5150 with original tubes that’s been sat not being played for 20 years, there’s a good chance the filter caps would be toast or close to it, from having not been used.


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## penguin_316 (Apr 27, 2018)

For that huge sound with a squish, 5150 for sure. For a much tighter and gaainier sound go LBX no question. LBX for modern stuff especially if you don’t want to boost. 5150 for old school Swedish thrash/broootz whatever but you’ll need a boost.

My problem was never the LBX sounding thin or weak. My issue was that the volume controls and gain go from 0 to insane too fast. The pots don’t have much room for tweaking, it’s a high gain amp that sounds great. Clean tones? Mid gain tone, nah not so much...clean tone? Lol


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## Beheroth (Apr 27, 2018)

How bout the 6534+ ? Supposed to be peavey's answer to evh's 5153.
EL34 power tubes and a reworked preamp : less noise, better clean and still got that peavey agression.


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## narad (Apr 27, 2018)

KailM said:


> I came here to literally post exactly this. Why seek an old-ass "block letter" when a 6505 is IDENTICAL? I bought my 2013 6505 last year for $600 and it has _exactly_ the same tone as an older 5150, block letter or otherwise. The added benefit is it won't need a cap job for a long, long time. The earliest 5150s came with better tubes (Sylvanias). If you can find a block letter with original tubes that has somehow sat for 20 years without being played, maybe it'll sound better than a 6505. Or you could just get some nice tubes for a 6505 and rock out.



Basically because I prefer the look of the block letter. Could probably tolerate a signature. But don't like the 6505 appearance. I know this is going to come across as nitpicky, but that's where I am -- get the iconic thing, or get a different thing (BE/MT15/LBX).

Good point about the caps, but that's still relatively cheap stuff.


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

If looks matter, there's not much out there that looks cooler than KSR, and they should certainly have enough gain for anything you want to do. No personal experience with one, but general opinion seems to be that they're like a "tighter Recto" sound.


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## PunkBillCarson (Apr 27, 2018)

This is just my opinion, but I would honestly think about giving the 6505+ a mention. I own one and while it is voiced differently, it still gets pretty damn brutal.


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## narad (Apr 27, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> If looks matter, there's not much out there that looks cooler than KSR, and they should certainly have enough gain for anything you want to do. No personal experience with one, but general opinion seems to be that they're like a "tighter Recto" sound.



And I'm definitely going to get the KSR, but that's not what this comparison is about.

There's really just one question: why do all these amps, that essentially capture the brown sound, not seem to be equal in regards to the same 5150 metal tone? Was the 5150 actually a poor recreation of the brown sound? And so its metal tone is its own thing, and modern modded marshalls that are designed mostly to achieve brown sound tones don't sound similar? Do they all sort of hit the brown sound but then tonally diverge from each other as the gain increases?

Seems like 6L6s are maybe necessary -- to me the MT15 is hard for me to distinguish from a 5150, but the LBX I can usually pick out quite quickly, so pretty much knocked that off the list. If the MT15 was available right now, I'd probably be on my way out the door to try one out.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Apr 27, 2018)

I don't think Eddie was chasing the brown sound when he designed the 5150. Before he used the 5150, he used a Soldano SLO, which most likely was a heavy influence on the 5150 line.


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

The 5150's (not really) "brown sound" channel is its green channel, not the red channel that everyone uses (the intent was "green for riffs, red for solos", but that wasn't how people other than Eddie ended up using it). That said, it wasn't really meant to be a brown sound amp; it was meant to be a tighter and more aggressive SLO. EVH was leaving the brown sound behind.

There's not a lot out there that sounds like a 5150. Not even the 5153. Trying to get that tone from something else is a fruitless chase, unless you're one of the seven people in the world with an Invective (which is just a 5150 with a built-in Tubescreamer and a power soak).


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## op1e (Apr 27, 2018)

narad said:


> Oh yea, the Gemini is on the list already for sure. Would it actually cop those old ... maybe In Flames sort of 5150 tones, or would it be more its own thing? I'm jus curious because if chasing the brown sound with KSR amps, it would probably make more sense to go with the Juno, so -- having no hands on experience -- I could see the case being more easily made that the Juno would be closer to the old 5150 sound.
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, there's just something I feel like isn't 100% there with the MTS or synergy system. I love the idea, and the 5150 is super pre-ampy, which is probably a large part of why the LBX can pull off something similar, but I haven't heard anything that's really felt right. Do you have any clips? But yea, I'm fortunate in basically having a marshall, and fender, and engl amp here, just looking to fill that 5150 niche.



The reason you haven't "heard anything that's FELT? right" is there's no good clips. I've bitched to them ad nausea about it. And Synergy is just Dad Rocking themselves outta business with their clips. They need to send gear to Fluff and Ola even if it they have to pay for the demo. But trust me, it's there. I play on mine every other day. People just don't take the time to set them up with the right glass. The 6505mh is very handy with the speaker defeat if you wanna record silent or, in my case, have a kt88 powered 5150 Superbeast  Eventually I'll sell my MH to buy a 5150 module cause screw my back and having light stuff anyway. i just didn't think it made sense to get another high gainer like that cause of my ENGL module filling the bill and doing a better job at the time.


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## narad (Apr 27, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> The 5150's (not really) "brown sound" channel is its green channel, not the red channel that everyone uses (the intent was "green for riffs, red for solos", but that wasn't how people other than Eddie ended up using it). That said, it wasn't really meant to be a brown sound amp; it was meant to be a tighter and more aggressive SLO. EVH was leaving the brown sound behind.
> 
> There's not a lot out there that sounds like a 5150. Not even the 5153. Trying to get that tone from something else is a fruitless chase, unless you're one of the seven people in the world with an Invective (which is just a 5150 with a built-in Tubescreamer and a power soak).



Hey, don't forget about the 9V pedal outlets!

Yea, good points about the SLO heritage. I think I've heard too many forum people talking about the 5150 and the brown sound without thinking it through -- IIRC, someone also brought up that point when talking about midgain tones with the invective.



op1e said:


> The reason you haven't "heard anything that's FELT? right" is there's no good clips. I've bitched to them ad nausea about it.



Ah, if I could try them out I would. I listened to about an hour of synergy reviews last night, and even Henning where I've heard all his other stuff for comparison, and it just wasn't doing it for me. And like I own/owned a bunch of the amps the modules were for, just didn't seem faithful.


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## narad (Apr 27, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't think Eddie was chasing the brown sound when he designed the 5150. Before he used the 5150, he used a Soldano SLO, which most likely was a heavy influence on the 5150 line.



Hmmm... I wonder if a boosted SLO or HR25 would be approximately that, while having lots of other great tones in there too.


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## op1e (Apr 27, 2018)

Jet City has a new LTD version built on the actual SLO circuit (not the other one) that's only around $500. It might be a good "in between" for Brown and Metal. http://www.ampfactory.com/100-ltd-m/


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## Cynicanal (Apr 27, 2018)

narad said:


> Hmmm... I wonder if a boosted SLO or HR25 would be approximately that, while having lots of other great tones in there too.


I kinda doubt it; the difference between the SLO and a 5150 isn't in the pre-amp gain staging (where they're basically identical, and also basically identical to a Recto) but rather in the power section (the SLO has a "better" transformer which causes it to be less compressed, and its presence and low-end are both voiced differently here; also, the 5150 is biased super cold, to which is a big part of its sound).


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## NateFalcon (Apr 27, 2018)

I’m a broken record, I know...I think a XXX/3120 for near half the price of a block letter will do pretty damn convincing 5150 tone and beyond, the gain structure is pretty close with more gain (not needed lol) and the channel/master volumes and active EQ on the gain channels have a wide sweep...I can get “swedish” metal sounds, great thrash tones, 5150 tone and darker 6505+ sounds. They’re super versatile outside of JUST 5150 sounds but still retain that classic Peavey buzzsaw lower mids with a really nice clean channel and separate EQ’s on each channel. I’d never have a specific reason to go back to a “real” 5150 when the XXX/3120’s do a lot more IMO


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## Wizard of Ozz (Apr 27, 2018)

narad said:


> Oh yea, the Gemini is on the list already for sure. Would it actually cop those old ... maybe In Flames sort of 5150 tones, or would it be more its own thing? I'm jus curious because if chasing the brown sound with KSR amps, it would probably make more sense to go with the Juno, so -- having no hands on experience -- I could see the case being more easily made that the Juno would be closer to the old 5150 sound.



Yep... Gemini. Not Juno. The Juno is his Marshall “Jose A. Diode Clipper” approach. Chugg-tastic boosted PV5150 tone => Gemini. The amounts of modes/switch combinations is staggering. 

I luvs me some old-school InFlames... Jester Race... Clayman... Whoracle... yes!


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## Wizard of Ozz (Apr 28, 2018)

narad said:


> And I'm definitely going to get the KSR, but that's not what this comparison is about.
> 
> There's really just one question: why do all these amps, that essentially capture the brown sound, not seem to be equal in regards to the same 5150 metal tone? Was the 5150 actually a poor recreation of the brown sound? And so its metal tone is its own thing, and modern modded marshalls that are designed mostly to achieve brown sound tones don't sound similar? Do they all sort of hit the brown sound but then tonally diverge from each other as the gain increases?
> 
> Seems like 6L6s are maybe necessary -- to me the MT15 is hard for me to distinguish from a 5150, but the LBX I can usually pick out quite quickly, so pretty much knocked that off the list. If the MT15 was available right now, I'd probably be on my way out the door to try one out.




I don't think any of the PV or Fender/EVH amps sound "brown" at all. Way too much preamp gain, and power amp filtering. 

If I want "brown" I use my original 1967 SLP with the matching og 4X12 with pre-Rola Greenies... that's "brown"... that's what Eddie used... and my amp sounds the same. No mods, pedals, tricks... just plugged straight in and cranked. But good luck finding a unmolested '67 in good shape. 

All the PV & Fender/EVH variants have 5-6 preamp gain stages with usually 6L6GCs (lower plate voltage)... the reason for 6L6GCs is that it is a more robust tube, with easier/cheaper to obtain reliability to the end user. EL34 (and 6CA7s which EVH used) run at a higher plate voltage... and his 67 had much less filtering = more sag, mush, feel.

Somewhere along the line people have confused the term "brown sound" with ultra-metal high gain. The "brown sound" was Eddie's '67 run thru a variac transformer to either drop/increase the voltage (depends who you ask)... with 6CA7s... to achieve a warmer/sweeter/more saturated sound faster. Not very "metal" at all by today's standards really. 

The PV5150II does a great InFlames tone with a TS808 if that's your end goal... and for little $$$ too.


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## Elric (Apr 28, 2018)

NinjaRaf said:


> If you want metal, the regular ass 5150/6505 is the one to get.


This. There should not even be a discussion here. The BE100 is a future Hall of Famer, but for the ask in the OP, the answer is kind of obvious.


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## ah_graylensman (May 11, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I don't think Eddie was chasing the brown sound when he designed the 5150. Before he used the 5150, he used a Soldano SLO, which most likely was a heavy influence on the 5150 line.



Supposedly the very first batch of 5150s in 1992 were so close to the SLO that all the traces on the PCBs lined up. Soldano was none too thrilled with that (imagine that?!?!), and Peavey quickly made some changes to avoid being sued for copyright infringement, mostly notably moving the effects loops to after the tone stack. (Believe or not, you can't copyright a circuit design, but you _can_ copyright a PCB layout!)


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## technomancer (May 11, 2018)

ah_graylensman said:


> Supposedly the very first batch of 5150s in 1992 were so close to the SLO that all the traces on the PCBs lined up. Soldano was none too thrilled with that (imagine that?!?!), and Peavey quickly made some changes to avoid being sued for copyright infringement, mostly notably moving the effects loops to after the tone stack. (Believe or not, you can't copyright a circuit design, but you _can_ copyright a PCB layout!)



This would be what I like to call complete bullshit. The 5150 is similar to a SLO and was inspired by it as that was what Eddie was playing when he went to Peavey because Soldano wouldn't do an endorsement deal, but they did not release then redesign the amp.


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## Deadpool_25 (May 11, 2018)

I’m Gassing hard for a BE-50. From demos it seems like it can do metal fine. And those cleans...mmmm. But yes, very expensive.


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## mnemonic (May 12, 2018)

Watch the ToneTalk episode on YouTube with James Brown, he goes over the process of designing the 5150 with Eddie, it’s a good watch. 

The episode with Mike Soldano they also touch on similarities between the Recto, 5150, and the SLO. Apparently the 5150 preamp is modified quite a bit away from the standard SLO preamp where I think the recto is, or was, a lot more similar (but with a different poweramp).


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## Shoeless_jose (May 12, 2018)

If you're willing to spend money on a Friedman, check out a Soldano Avenger, comes in 50 or 100 watt, pure firebreathing filth.


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 14, 2018)

Buy 5150/6505. open it up. Bias mod it. put in good quality tubes in power amp (6l6 or 5881s depending whether you want a more agressive upper mid (5881s)). Now bias it correctly. Put in a lower gain preamp tube set (also quality ones).

Then, go off and destroy small cities at will.

Seriously, one of the best sounds is still a 5150/6505 with good tubes and a bias mod. Totally destroys.


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## KailM (May 14, 2018)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Buy 5150/6505. open it up. Bias mod it. put in good quality tubes in power amp (6l6 or 5881s depending whether you want a more agressive upper mid (5881s)). Now bias it correctly. Put in a lower gain preamp tube set (also quality ones).
> 
> Then, go off and destroy small cities at will.
> 
> Seriously, one of the best sounds is still a 5150/6505 with good tubes and a bias mod. Totally destroys.



I approve of this message. And I haven't even done the bias mod. EQ in the loop helps me to sound like I have. Absolutely destructive tonal annihilation is how I'd describe it.


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 14, 2018)

KailM said:


> I approve of this message. And I haven't even done the bias mod. EQ in the loop helps me to sound like I have. Absolutely destructive tonal annihilation is how I'd describe it.


seriously, do the bias mod, it is ridiculously simple. one resistor, a variable pot and a glue gun.


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## KailM (May 14, 2018)

7 Dying Trees said:


> seriously, do the bias mod, it is ridiculously simple. one resistor, a variable pot and a glue gun.



I'm planning on it at some point. Too busy st the moment. Could you describe for me exactly what a hotter bias sounds like in comparison to the standard cold bias?


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## Cynicanal (May 14, 2018)

TBH, I actually like the sound of the colder bias more. Not as fat on the bottom end as the modded, but more aggressive.


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## wakjob (May 14, 2018)

sylcfh said:


> If you can't do metal by boosting a BE-100, you should probably switch to drums.



Having owned one...

It's doable, but impossible to take the "rock-n-roll"
out of the final sound. It's doesn't "brutalz" like the
5150 family of amps.


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## KailM (May 14, 2018)

Cynicanal said:


> TBH, I actually like the sound of the colder bias more. Not as fat on the bottom end as the modded, but more aggressive.



Yes, I've heard that enough times that I haven't been in a rush to do the mod. I certainly love the tone I get when it's cranked anyway-- it even beats the 5150 III for all-out brutality. It's probably a mod that you have to hear and feel in person to know if it's right for you or not. I'll probably do it this summer just to see.


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## sylcfh (May 15, 2018)

wakjob said:


> Having owned one...
> 
> It's doable, but impossible to take the "rock-n-roll"
> out of the final sound. It's doesn't "brutalz" like the
> 5150 family of amps.





Then get it modded by Fortin or Elan.


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## narad (May 15, 2018)

sylcfh said:


> Then get it modded by Fortin or Elan.



Gotta love spending $3500 on an amp, then sending it off for $4-500 in mods, to get that 5150/5150II sound.


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 15, 2018)

KailM said:


> I'm planning on it at some point. Too busy st the moment. Could you describe for me exactly what a hotter bias sounds like in comparison to the standard cold bias?


1- less fizz as you are moving it out of cross over distortion
2- it's louder. A lot louder.
3- Better low end, really punches nicely
4- more clarity

The amp wasn't bad to start with, you know, standard 5150 fare, but after that (and especially with 5881s in it instead of 6l6s) it really just, to me, got more aggressive, clearer (making the preamp gain more usable), gave it more roar and made it louder. Did some reamping with it through a standard mesa cab a while back, and I remember standing outside the soundproofed garage at the time being able to feel the punch of it in the floor outside. 

It's not a night and day mod, the amp will still sound like a 5150, but it is very very worthwhile and excellent bang for buck.

Crunch channel, 6/6/6 settings, ts808 and the post cranked to just under speaker breakup is a thing of devastation.


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## LiveOVErdrive (May 15, 2018)

I should maybe start a new thread, but here's a question:

Can I get 5150-ish rhythm tones from my mesa Mark 5? Lately it sounds like a mark no matter how I dial it in but I've been hankering for a 5150 chunk. Boosting the extreme channel sounds pretty good I guess.


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## narad (May 15, 2018)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I should maybe start a new thread, but here's a question:
> 
> Can I get 5150-ish rhythm tones from my mesa Mark 5? Lately it sounds like a mark no matter how I dial it in but I've been hankering for a 5150 chunk. Boosting the extreme channel sounds pretty good I guess.



I have a JP-2C and I'd say no. I wouldn't have started this thread otherwise ;-)


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## Wizard of Ozz (May 15, 2018)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I should maybe start a new thread, but here's a question:
> 
> Can I get 5150-ish rhythm tones from my mesa Mark 5? Lately it sounds like a mark no matter how I dial it in but I've been hankering for a 5150 chunk. Boosting the extreme channel sounds pretty good I guess.



No. As much as I love my JP2C (and Mark amps in general) they are different from the 5150 and variant amps. I might grab a 5152 just to have one. They really do only 1 great sound imho... but's its an iconic great sound to be sure.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (May 15, 2018)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I should maybe start a new thread, but here's a question:
> 
> Can I get 5150-ish rhythm tones from my mesa Mark 5? Lately it sounds like a mark no matter how I dial it in but I've been hankering for a 5150 chunk. Boosting the extreme channel sounds pretty good I guess.



Totally different animals, but I can get a saturated, mid-heavy sound in a similar vein from my Mark V. Keep in mind it won't have nearly the low end punch that the 5150 resonance gives you, or the ludicrous amount of gain in general.

Mark IV mode, bright switch on, gain around 2:00 or 3:00, treble around 1:00, mids around 3:30, bass just above 9:00, presence around 11:00, channel volume as needed, EQ preset around noon or 1:00. This is boosted with an OD808 or Grid Slammer, too. 

At the end of the day, though, my 5150 does the 5150 thing and the Mark does the Mark thing.


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## sakeido (May 15, 2018)

NinjaRaf said:


> If you want metal, the regular ass 5150/6505 is the one to get. I have owned 7 Peavey 5150/6505s in various formats, a 5153 Stealth, and a 5153 50 watt, and the one that I still have is a 5150 212 combo converted to a head. The Peaveys have an aggressive ass gain structure that the 5153s do not have.
> 
> Also, why limit yourself to a block letter? 100% the same circuit as the signature 5150s and the 6505s, only difference was the stock tubes at the time. You are just going to pay more for a block letter because of snake oil claims by internet guys trying to get more for their amp than its worth. This has all been confirmed a few times by FJA, and recently by James Brown himself in a tone talk video that you can find on youtube.



this whole post was gold

seriously if you want the 5150 sound, just get the 5150. I had one, finally got it dialed the morning of the day I sold it. wasn't too concerned at the time cuz I was going to get a 5153 again right away...and I've missed the Peavey ever since and am on the hunt for a new one.

5150 is the all time Tone For Your Dollar champion. I think it's kinda telling that a guy who always championed new school ways of generating tones like Pod and Axe FX eventually said "fuck it" and his signature amp is just a 5150 with a proper clean channel and built-in boost. the 5150 tone is everything you need, nothing you don't

don't get too caught up in the Brown Sound. the 5150 isn't it. even if you do dial in a brown sound, it's interesting to see how your whole mix has to change to accommodate it. also, green channel for life


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## NinjaRaf (May 15, 2018)

Lots of guys praising the bias mod, but when I did the bias mod on one of my old ones, I ended up reversing it. Takes away from the aggressiveness that makes it what it is, IMO.


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## mnemonic (May 15, 2018)

I had the same feeling when I turned up the bias on my Jet City head (clone of soldano hot rod, so it will have some similar DNA to the 5150), lost some aggressiveness and the bottom end got too mushy. 

I guess it really depends on the design of the power amp, I think the class A mode on my 2/50/2 poweramp sounds amazing and all it does is swap from fixed bias to cathode bias, which as I understand is a lot hotter.


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## wakjob (May 15, 2018)

sylcfh said:


> Then get it modded by Fortin or Elan.



Buy a $3,700 amp that doesn't do the job...
then mod it?


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## Seabeast2000 (May 15, 2018)

wakjob said:


> Buy a $3,700 amp that doesn't do the job...
> then mod it?


Meme time!


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## Jacksonluvr636 (May 15, 2018)

I agree with the Bogner fans.

If cost is an issue then go for the 5150. But if not the Bogners are on another level.

I have a 5150 2x12, I used to own a 6505+, I have a Bogner Rev 2 and have spent time with the Twin Jet.

I love my 5150 combo (I know its not the head) and it does sound raunchy AF but the Bogner stuff just is better imo. There is nothing like the thunderous Low end of the Uberschall unless you are running a powered sub.


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## Cynicanal (May 15, 2018)

Much as I love my TJ, I don't think it's what OP is going for.

The TJ is good when you want an early Recto kind of sound, not so much mid-heavy 5150.


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## narad (May 15, 2018)

Yea, I'm a huge Bogner fan but I've never heard the Ubers nail the 5150 sound. I mean, I basically never heard any non-5150 nail the 5150 sound, and my curiosity was largely about why that is given so many amps in that space share similar DNA or sonic goals. This thread's been super helpful in pointing out a lot of differences that are pretty obvious but I wasn't taking into account.

I'll probably get a 5150 block all said and done -- I see plenty of clean examples in Japan for $500/600, and I'll be there in a month. That's fully recognizing there's not really a circuit difference between that and the sig or IIs, but when everything's pretty similarly priced, I figure might as well go with the iconic one.

Probably get the TJ too, some day


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## rexbinary (May 15, 2018)

The906 said:


> Meme time!


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## KailM (May 15, 2018)

NinjaRaf said:


> Lots of guys praising the bias mod, but when I did the bias mod on one of my old ones, I ended up reversing it. Takes away from the aggressiveness that makes it what it is, IMO.



I must admit, it's hard to imagine my 6505 sounding any better. I a/b it with my 5153 all the time. They're both awesome. The EVH definitely sounds better at lower volumes.

But tonight my wife and kids were away so I played both amps the way they were designed to be run -- cranked. The EVH was crushing, absolutely. The 6505 had another gear...


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## Seabeast2000 (May 16, 2018)

KailM said:


> I must admit, it's hard to imagine my 6505 sounding any better. I a/b it with my 5153 all the time. They're both awesome. The EVH definitely sounds better at lower volumes.
> 
> But tonight my wife and kids were away so I played both amps the way they were designed to be run -- cranked. The EVH was crushing, absolutely. The 6505 had another gear...


You ever use the headphone jack on the EVH? If so, is it good?


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## sylcfh (May 16, 2018)

narad said:


> Gotta love spending $3500 on an amp, then sending it off for $4-500 in mods, to get that 5150/5150II sound.





No way do Metalhead mods sound like a 5150. I think it's even heavier. 




wakjob said:


> Buy a $3,700 amp that doesn't do the job...
> then mod it?




It costs about the same as a really good drum set. 

Or a sarcasm meter.


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## KailM (May 16, 2018)

The906 said:


> You ever use the headphone jack on the EVH? If so, is it good?



Yes, I've tried it. It sounds terrible.  It's way better to just turn the volume down if you need to play quietly.


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## Seabeast2000 (May 16, 2018)

KailM said:


> Yes, I've tried it. It sounds terrible.  It's way better to just turn the volume down if you need to play quietly.


Thanks, good to know on this "feature".


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## TheWarAgainstTime (May 16, 2018)

The906 said:


> You ever use the headphone jack on the EVH? If so, is it good?



I've used mine a couple of times. It's not great  like KaliM said, it's better to just turn the amp way down. The only time it's been actually useful to me was when my old band tried using a Jamhub setup with electronic drums, the direct sound from the EVH and a Sansamp for the bass. Even then, it was only "good enough" for that situation


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## NinjaRaf (May 17, 2018)

narad said:


> Yea, I'm a huge Bogner fan but I've never heard the Ubers nail the 5150 sound. I mean, I basically never heard any non-5150 nail the 5150 sound, and my curiosity was largely about why that is given so many amps in that space share similar DNA or sonic goals. This thread's been super helpful in pointing out a lot of differences that are pretty obvious but I wasn't taking into account.
> 
> I'll probably get a 5150 block all said and done -- I see plenty of clean examples in Japan for $500/600, and I'll be there in a month. That's fully recognizing there's not really a circuit difference between that and the sig or IIs, but when everything's pretty similarly priced, I figure might as well go with the iconic one.
> 
> Probably get the TJ too, some day



Well, there is a circuit difference between the regular 5150/6505 and the II/+. There is no circuit difference between the 5150 BL or sig, or the 6505. Only difference between the 5150 BL and the 5150 sig is the little EVH in block letters on the face of the chassis vs Eddie's signature in place of the EVH lettering.


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## narad (May 17, 2018)

NinjaRaf said:


> Well, there is a circuit difference between the regular 5150/6505 and the II/+. There is no circuit difference between the 5150 BL or sig, or the 6505. Only difference between the 5150 BL and the 5150 sig is the little EVH in block letters on the face of the chassis vs Eddie's signature in place of the EVH lettering.



Yes, sorry - meant to say the sig or the 6505s.


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## 7 Stringer (May 19, 2018)

I have had a 5150, 5150 II and a 5150 III all at the same time for quite some time. Just recently decided i was gonna keep the better one...... First one out was the 5150. Too loose and flubby for my style of playing. A bit too saturated too....and no clean that was usable.

Played my 5150 III for 10 years strait almost, loooove that amp. Cleans are great, blue channel is just amazing for 80's anything distorted and the red is good but lacks aggressiveness. An awesome amp But it had to go.

Here still lies the 5150 II. The ultimate metal amp for me. High mid focused, tight bass response, articulate chords. Cleans that are actually very good. Less saturated than the 5150, a bit less aggressive but in a different manner. More polite lets say.

I ryn an Empress paraeq in the loop and watch out, it is gonna scare you!!!! Very aggressive and has a bark that is hard to ignore, cuts through anything.

Oh and i have a BE 100 also, not the same kinda amp but still can get heavy as hell... Especially with the JJ mod i have on it.


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## KailM (May 19, 2018)

^^FWIW, I think there's something different to love about every variation of the 5150/6505 series, from both Peavey and EVH. For me, the original circuit ticks all my boxes for high gain tone better than the II and III. Out of control low-end, that you're able to tame *just enough* with an OD pedal, absolutely evil grind in the low mids, and singing highs.

I own all three, and if I had to settle on just one, it'd be the EVH because of its versatility. Cleans are better than the 6505+ and way better than the original. The gain tones get close enough.


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## Frostbite (May 19, 2018)

The906 said:


> Meme time!


Hold on I got this. "At least it's not made in Ameri... China like some amps!!!"


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## narad (May 19, 2018)

7 Stringer said:


> Oh and i have a BE 100 also, not the same kinda amp but still can get heavy as hell... Especially with the JJ mod i have on it.



Though I feel like if you have the BE, what reason is there to care about the clean/blues of a 5150II?

But yea, it's tough because a paraeq in the loop is too smart, it's going to solve a lot of things  Really narrow the importance of any of the 5150s over the other. In fact, if I was designing the invective I probably would have done a 5150 with a paraeq and ISP built in -- like the Peavey competitor to the Ultra-Lead or Mark series -- because those standand eq controls get you some flexibility, but the graphic EQs get you like 4-5 different gain structure vibes. Like the Herbert with / without mid-cut is similar.


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## sevenfoxes (May 19, 2018)

Old school death metal? Ibanez TBX150H. Solid state metal at its finest.


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## 7 Stringer (May 19, 2018)

narad said:


> Though I feel like if you have the BE, what reason is there to care about the clean/blues of a 5150II?
> 
> But yea, it's tough because a paraeq in the loop is too smart, it's going to solve a lot of things  Really narrow the importance of any of the 5150s over the other. In fact, if I was designing the invective I probably would have done a 5150 with a paraeq and ISP built in -- like the Peavey competitor to the Ultra-Lead or Mark series -- because those standand eq controls get you some flexibility, but the graphic EQs get you like 4-5 different gain structure vibes. Like the Herbert with / without mid-cut is similar.



Yeah, the II is all about clean and high gain. But the crunch tones are also very good, but you loose the clean, its one or the other.

The BE the way i had it built is a 3 fully independent channel amp. Has separate gain and volumes for both high gain channels plus the clean. An awesome amp. It is because of it that i sold the 5150 III as it has a crazy good crunch tone. Richer, fatter and tighter than the III.

Add the Empress in the loop and, it becomes a brootal metal machine!!!!!


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## 7 Stringer (May 19, 2018)

narad said:


> Though I feel like if you have the BE, what reason is there to care about the clean/blues of a 5150II?
> 
> But yea, it's tough because a paraeq in the loop is too smart, it's going to solve a lot of things  Really narrow the importance of any of the 5150s over the other. In fact, if I was designing the invective I probably would have done a 5150 with a paraeq and ISP built in -- like the Peavey competitor to the Ultra-Lead or Mark series -- because those standand eq controls get you some flexibility, but the graphic EQs get you like 4-5 different gain structure vibes. Like the Herbert with / without mid-cut is similar.



Yeah, the II is all about clean and high gain. But the crunch tones are also very good, but you loose the clean, its one or the other.

The BE the way i had it built is a 3 fully independent channel amp. Has separate gain and volumes for both high gain channels plus the clean. An awesome amp. It is because of it that i sold the 5150 III as it has a crazy good crunch tone. Richer, fatter and tighter than the III.

Add the Empress in the loop and, it becomes a brootal metal machine!!!!!


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## Seabeast2000 (May 19, 2018)

So...curious if anyone knows the innards of the 5153 50W. It has 7 12AX7s? 1 PI, 1 or two for Green an 3-4 for red/blue? Is that correct?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 19, 2018)

sevenfoxes said:


> Old school death metal? Ibanez TBX150H. Solid state metal at its finest.



I actually 100% agree with this . My TBX reminds me of those old-school death metal tones.

Tonally it kinda reminds me of a 5150II/6505+, just... more solid state-y. One of my favorite tones was running the preamp of my TBX into the power section of my 5150II.


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## gunch (May 19, 2018)

TBX150H sounds really VH140C-ish, interesting


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## sevenfoxes (May 20, 2018)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> One of my favorite tones was running the preamp of my TBX into the power section of my 5150II.


Interesting. What did that sound like? I have a TBX and 5153 50w, so now I'm tempted to try it. Did you just go from the TBX fx loop send to the 5150 fx loop return?


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## sevenfoxes (May 20, 2018)

silverabyss said:


> TBX150H sounds really VH140C-ish, interesting



I used to own the Crate version of the VHT. The think the Ibanez sounds a lot better!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 20, 2018)

sevenfoxes said:


> Interesting. What did that sound like? I have a TBX and 5153 50w, so now I'm tempted to try it. Did you just go from the TBX fx loop send to the 5150 fx loop return?



Sounded more "alive" I guess I would say? The lows were deeper, the highs were smoother in a good way. Kinda smoothed out that extreme high end fizz the amp is known to have.


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