# PSA: Volume is not Tone.



## GunpointMetal (Jan 16, 2019)

Holy crap, three shows in the last couple of weeks where the bass/guitars are running full stacks at max volume in venues with two 12" PA speakers on poles for mains and guess what, you can'e hear the drums or vocals and it sounds like utter shit. I get it, some people like excruciating volumes, but nobody is buying your shirts or coming back the next time if you sound like shit and drive everyone outside during your set. 
Also, the minor pentatonic stoner riffing thing has been officially canceled until further notice. Ya'll have ruined it by not even bothering to try and come up with a new riff.


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## TedEH (Jan 16, 2019)

I've been to some of these kinds of stoner/doom shows where even the earplugs were not enough and my ears rang for days. Not cool guys.


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## Lindmann (Jan 16, 2019)

This is essential. The guitars have to feedback constantly for this kind of music...hence the volume.

At least that's what I thought when I visited a sludge metal show.

Half of the audience was covering their ears if they were lucky enough not to hold a beer in their hands. This was not because the music was awful (it was cool actually) but because it was very hard to bear these volumes.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 16, 2019)

Lindmann said:


> This is essential. The guitars have to feedback constantly for this kind of music...hence the volume.
> 
> At least that's what I thought when I visited a sludge metal show.


I bet they'd be surprised to find out guitar amps can feed back at moderate volumes in smaller spaces, too. Otherwise just leave drums and the singer int he van, no one is going to know the difference anyways.


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## Lindmann (Jan 16, 2019)

Nah...the sound guy was making up for it by tuning up the volume of the snare.
I was literally flinching at every snare hit. And I am not even joking .
Needless to say that the drummer only played rim shots.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 16, 2019)

Lindmann said:


> Nah...the sound guy was making up for it by tuning up the volume of the snare.
> I was literally flinching at every snare hit. And I am not even joking .
> Needless to say that the drummer only played rim shots.


At least in that scenario the PA could get the snare over the stacks. All three of these recent shows I've been at the PA in place was completely drowned out by the amps because they're little dives with maybe $1k worth of gear total for the "PA".


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## Drew (Jan 16, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> I bet they'd be surprised to find out guitar amps can feed back at moderate volumes in smaller spaces, too. Otherwise just leave drums and the singer int he van, no one is going to know the difference anyways.


Saves time on setup and breakdown too!


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## TedEH (Jan 16, 2019)

Lindmann said:


> This is essential. The guitars have to feedback constantly for this kind of music...hence the volume.


I can't help but roll my eyes a bit at the "it NEEDS to be loud" argument. I can cause feedback at low volume in my apartment- why anyone thinks you need to be INSANELY LOUD to get feedback is beyond me.


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## budda (Jan 16, 2019)

Volume is not tone.

But good tone at high volume is more fun.

I'm glad the days of "your solo looked great, but I couldn't hear it" are behind me.

Signed,

In A Band Louder Than The Melvins


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## TedEH (Jan 16, 2019)

Maybe this goes in the unpopular opinion thread, but if your tone really is as good as you think it is, you don't need to be louder than everything else to be heard clearly.


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## budda (Jan 17, 2019)

TedEH said:


> Maybe this goes in the unpopular opinion thread, but if your tone really is as good as you think it is, you don't need to be louder than everything else to be heard clearly.



I don't think it's a case of "need" to be loud. It's entirely a want.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

Deleted for double post.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

Being loud is fine. I like hearing sweet toanz at big volumes. But if you have a drummer, and are playing riffs, it'd be nice to, I don't know, hear the drummer and be able to distinguish the difference between what you're playing and the wall of noise you're creating. In the recent cases it doesn't make the bands sound heavy, it makes them sound amateur and poorly rehearsed, which is a bummer for anyone who paid to see a show. You can see lots of terrible, poorly rehearsed bands in basements for "donations".


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jan 18, 2019)

budda said:


> I don't think it's a case of "need" to be loud. It's entirely a want.



Yeah I like this. If you have solid tone, pumping the volume will be fun for everybody (to an extent. I don't want to have to wear earplugs, man). 
If you have shit tone, pumping the volume is only going to make it worse all around.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> If you have solid tone, pumping the volume will be fun for everybody


I don't know that I'd go that far either. It seems to me that you can only really get away with really "pumping up the volume" in cases where everything lines up great:
- A good enough PA to not be pushing everything
- A good enough sounding room/space to begin with
- Good source tones / gear
- A good enough sound guy to make it not just a loud mess
- A band that sounds good enough to not ruin it via bad playing or poorly dialed in equipment

Coincidentally, those are also the things that make you no longer need to pump the volume up.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jan 18, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I'd go that far either. It seems to me that you can only really get away with really "pumping up the volume" in cases where everything lines up great:
> - A good enough PA to not be pushing everything
> - A good enough sounding room/space to begin with
> - Good source tones / gear
> ...



I think we're saying the same thing; I just consider all of those things to be part of what constitutes a 'solid tone,' because if the PA blows or if the room is tinny you aren't going to have great tone.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

I guess what I'm leading to is that volume going up seems to often just be to compensate for some missing element. Tone isn't good? Can't hear yourself? Turn it up! I can think of no cases where excessive volume really is more enjoyable for everyone.


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## budda (Jan 18, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I guess what I'm leading to is that volume going up seems to often just be to compensate for some missing element. Tone isn't good? Can't hear yourself? Turn it up! I can think of no cases where excessive volume really is more enjoyable for everyone.



AC/DC, motorhead and Sleep. To start.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

I still count those as cases where the volume is compensating for a lack of something else. If you don't sound good at a reasonable volume... then you just don't sound that good.


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## budda (Jan 18, 2019)

And in the examples I provided, what is that something else?


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## Hollowway (Jan 18, 2019)

I remember when I was like 21 or 22 I was in this dive bar in a friend's town, and the music (not live band) was just ridiculously loud. We literally couldn't hold a decent conversation with each other, even though were were yelling. I went up to the bar and motioned to the bar tender/owner to turn the music down some. He yelled, "If it's too loud, you're too old!" The dude was like 50 years old. And I remembered how loud my dad listened to the TV. That figure of speech is totally backwards. It's too loud BECAUSE you're too old. 

But, I hate super loud shows. At some point along the way, louder started being equated with a longer penis or something. I MUCH prefer a good mix.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2019)

Tone matters at high volume, any volume of rally. 

Everyone wants to be Bongripper (can't blame them, they're fucking awesome), but not everyone has thier big, loud rigs dialed in as well. 

You can't just go out and buy all the big cabs and old Peaveys and expect great tone. You need to tailor it still. 

That's the problem, volume is not a replacement for tone, no matter how many 4x12s, 8x10s and 2x15s you have on stage.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2019)

budda said:


> And in the examples I provided, what is that something else?


Good songs?  I don't listen to those examples often enough to have a serious answer, but I stick by what I said. If your songs need to be loud to be good... maybe they're not that good.


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## budda (Jan 19, 2019)

TedEH said:


> Good songs?  I don't listen to those examples often enough to have a serious answer, but I stick by what I said. If your songs need to be loud to be good... maybe they're not that good.



Again, they dont need to be loud. The artists just want to be loud.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2019)

When folks start framing a "want" in an argument as a "need", even though no one has said it's "needed", just "wanted", is pointless. The discussion is no longer taking place in good faith. Textbook straw man fallacy.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jan 19, 2019)

I can't stand overblown bass in the live mix. I get it, thump your chest to the kick bro, feel the beat, don't hear the music. But its not a nightclub and I'm not on X. 
Too loud in general, always brings me back to a half of an Mars Volta opening act for RHCP a while back. God that was awful. Volume definitely worked against the band and the audience %100. RHCP sounded great however.


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## Rawkmann (Jan 19, 2019)

Around here it’s generally the drums and bass that get pushed the most and mixes sound muddy af. When I play shows I don’t even care that much anymore, I’ve got my little 1x12 20 watt combo amp and turn it on and let the sound guy take the reins after that. I don’t do the whole fighting over volume thing anymore.


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## KailM (Jan 19, 2019)

I heard knitting is fun. And safe for your ears.

Can't say I've ever been to a show that was _too_ loud. I've definitely had my ears ringing for an hour or so afterward but nothing that caused cringing at the show. Depending on the music, of course, _feeling it_ is part of the experience that you're not going to get on a recording.

This is not a metal example, but I will never forget the time I heard Flea's _first note_ in an RHCP show that kicked off their Californication tour. It was that first bass slap on the song Around the World. Even at 100 yards away it felt like my chest was going to cave-in. Awesome.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2019)

I went to a show once where it ended up being so loud that all you heard was white noise, even with ear plugs in. I'm not exaggerating, it was painfully loud. No hearing protection known to man could have either preventing the ringing afterwards, or made what anyone was playing audible.


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## KailM (Jan 19, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I went to a show once where it ended up being so loud that all you heard was white noise, even with ear plugs in. I'm not exaggerating, it was painfully loud. No hearing protection known to man could have either preventing the ringing afterwards, or made what anyone was playing audible.



That’s ridiculous. How does the band still hear?


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 20, 2019)

budda said:


> AC/DC, motorhead and Sleep. To start.


Songwriting, hearing, and well, anything interesting (IMO, of course)



KailM said:


> I heard knitting is fun. And safe for your ears.
> 
> Can't say I've ever been to a show that was _too_ loud. I've definitely had my ears ringing for an hour or so afterward but nothing that caused cringing at the show. Depending on the music, of course, _feeling it_ is part of the experience that you're not going to get on a recording.
> 
> This is not a metal example, but I will never forget the time I heard Flea's _first note_ in an RHCP show that kicked off their Californication tour. It was that first bass slap on the song Around the World. Even at 100 yards away it felt like my chest was going to cave-in. Awesome.


 I’ll say it again, volume is fine, but if you’re not playing for the room/the people who paid to get it (as far as dialing in your rig and setting levels) just stay in the basement. Makes the whole band look like amateurs.


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## Mathemagician (Jan 20, 2019)

Ugh just reading the first few comments in this thread made my ears ring. Saw at the Gates and behemoth last year and one of the bands that opened was like this. Now I understand why they felt the volume was needed. Doom-sludge is not my thing so TIL.


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## TedEH (Jan 20, 2019)

KailM said:


> That’s ridiculous. How does the band still hear?


If I remember correctly, I was also playing that night. None of the bands had any real input on the sound that night. It was all just wing it and hope for the best. Nobody was particularly impressed that day.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 21, 2019)

KailM said:


> I heard knitting is fun. And safe for your ears.
> 
> Can't say I've ever been to a show that was _too_ loud. I've definitely had my ears ringing for an hour or so afterward but nothing that caused cringing at the show. Depending on the music, of course, _feeling it_ is part of the experience that you're not going to get on a recording.
> 
> This is not a metal example, but I will never forget the time I heard Flea's _first note_ in an RHCP show that kicked off their Californication tour. It was that first bass slap on the song Around the World. Even at 100 yards away it felt like my chest was going to cave-in. Awesome.


I was at a necrophagist concert and muhammad was running 4 4x12s. It was ridiculous sounding, even with earplugs in. I was standing about 300ft away from the stage and it felt like someone was sledgehammering my chest.
I've yet to be to another indoor metal show that was as loud as that, except for when I saw Gojira.


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## TedEH (Jan 21, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Gojira


Aaactually... now that I think of it, the last time I can remember a show being stupidly loud but still very clear/audible was Gojira at HeavyMTL. I think that's a case of the sound guy doing a really good job. Arguably it's one of those cases where all the pieces are there: It's a good sounding band, with good gear, a good sound guy, etc.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 21, 2019)

Bongzilla does it well, (and several of Tiny's other bands he plays with around here) they're crushingly loud, but the tones are pleasant to listen to and there's still balance between the amps/drums/vocals. There's another local band around here called Bereft and they do the whole louder-than-god thing while having great guitar/bass tones and keeping the levels to the point the drums/vocals are still audible.

Jucifer does it awfully. They are loud with bad BAD tone to the point of white noise, and drums and vocals may as well not even be there.


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## broj15 (Jan 21, 2019)

My bands does the whole dumb loud thing. It's to the point now when people come see us they know what they're in for. Last show we played in-between songs I heard I guy in the crowd (excitedly) say "I can't see anything, it's too loud" . That being said, we realize every room is different and adjust the eq's accordingly. And our drummer loves it. His kit is pretty loud (dude has a massive kick) and he says it keeps from being lazy by forcing him to play harder. And strangely enough when our vocalist is at 100% (read as she's been drinking her gosh darn water like we tell her to) we can clearly hear her even without a PA. Her screams are just that loud.

I totally get what you mean though. Idc how loud some doom band is. You still sound like a dime store Mastodon/sleep/electric wizard cover band and that's fucking boring regardless of volume.


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## TedEH (Jan 21, 2019)

broj15 said:


> we can clearly hear her even without a PA. Her screams are just that loud.


If your vocalist is audible with no PA, your stage sound is probably not that high.  That's a good thing though. IMO that's another reason too much volume is no good: a vocalist who can't hear themselves is more likely to yell too harshly and potentially damage their voice.


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## Blasphemer (Jan 22, 2019)

broj15 said:


> when our vocalist is at 100% (read as she's been drinking her gosh darn water like we tell her to) we can clearly hear her even without a PA. Her screams are just that loud.



This just makes me think of this:


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## angl2k (Jan 23, 2019)

Tinnitus sure is fun

The problem lies in people who think being obnoxiously loud (110+ db) is cool or edgy or is part of the 'experience'.


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## budda (Jan 23, 2019)

angl2k said:


> Tinnitus sure is fun
> 
> The problem lies in people who think being obnoxiously loud (110+ db) is cool or edgy or is part of the 'experience'.



If the band decides they want to be loud, then it *is* part of the experience . It may sound great, it may not. But that is still a decision the band makes.


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## TedEH (Jan 23, 2019)

That doesn't make it a _good_ experience, though.


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## budda (Jan 23, 2019)

TedEH said:


> That doesn't make it a _good_ experience, though.



So far so good.


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## TedEH (Jan 23, 2019)

budda said:


> So far so good.


I don't know what you're referring to. This whole thread has been full of examples of too loud = bad, and only the rare case where things happen to work out.


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## budda (Jan 23, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I don't know what you're referring to. This whole thread has been full of examples of too loud = bad, and only the rare case where things happen to work out.



Ah, sorry.

We are a loud band. So far so good.


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## TedEH (Jan 23, 2019)

I mean... there's loud, and then there's doom/stoner loud. I've seen plenty of loud bands that sounded good, but there's a limit. Lots of music is played loud just sort of by default, the problem becomes when loud progresses into being way too much. I've been to plenty of shows where the band thought they put on a great show and nobody wanted to tell them to their face that the volume made it painful to watch.

If you're not getting complained to by the sound guys at the venues you play, then you might not be as loud as the examples I'm thinking of. We've probably played a lot of the same venues - I've had sound guys in Toronto / Ottawa / Quebec / etc tell me I'm too loud and I don't think of myself as a "loud" guitarist.  They're definitely not shy about telling people when it's too much.


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## TedEH (Jan 23, 2019)

I think there's also an argument to be made for audience members who are ignorant (willfully or otherwise) of the damage they're doing to their own hearing for the sake of "the experience". "Wow, that was intense, I wont be able to hear anything for days!" is not positive feedback in my mind, even if it was intended to be.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 24, 2019)

budda said:


> Ah, sorry.
> 
> We are a loud band. So far so good.


That's the point of the thread at the beginning. Basically, nothing wrong with being stupid loud unless you're replacing sounding good with being loud. There are lots of bands that sound good and are super loud. There are A LOT of regional/local-level bands that don't know the difference or don't care, and they suck to see live. Most of them just play some variation on 0-3-5-6-12 frets on the low string for 40 minutes, and that also sucks to see live.


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## budda (Jan 24, 2019)

@GunpointMetal my takeaway has also been that most people posting just dont like super loud bands, even if they are dialled in.


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2019)

I actually do like the loud band thing, but within reason. There's loud, and then there's nothing-is-audible-anymore loud. And there's volume used to compensate for bad tone.
I'm also of the opinion that the loudness should come from the sound guy, not from stage volume. If your stage volume overpowers everything before PA support gets involved, you're sabotaging your own show.


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## budda (Jan 24, 2019)

Then you dont like the loud band thing


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## TedEH (Jan 24, 2019)

I guess not.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 24, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I actually do like the loud band thing, but within reason. There's loud, and then there's nothing-is-audible-anymore loud. And there's volume used to compensate for bad tone.
> I'm also of the opinion that the loudness should come from the sound guy, not from stage volume. If your stage volume overpowers everything before PA support gets involved, you're sabotaging your own show.


I don't think it needs to be on the soundguy necessarily. If the sound guy says "Hey, your stacks are making it impossible for me to get the kick and vocals heard in the room" then you should probably listen to the sound guy. But IME bands that DO sound good loud, no how to adjust for the room so they can still rumble all the juevos and still present something that can be enjoyable, versus just visceral.


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## jsmalleus (Jan 24, 2019)

There's a local dive bar where lots of Stoner/Doom bands come through. We love the venue and playing there and going to shows there, but the house PA is probably worth $150 and understandably, they frequently don't mic drums at all. I've seen some great, loud bands handle it well and do great shows there, and then there's the ones who need their amp on 11 no matter what. If you don't know how live sound works enough to stage your volumes properly to account for the venue and gear, and the crowd can't hear ANY trace of the drums over your amps, you should probably sit at home and riff and forget being in a band in the first place. By all means crank the bajeebus out of it if the equipment is there, but don't be a prick, pay attention and don't go way up above the noise ceiling for the other members of your band.


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## Mprinsje (Jan 24, 2019)

A lot of shows we play the drums are miced out and the sound guy asks us if we want our cabs miced up. Usually we tell him not to bother with it so we can just crank it. When there's no drum mic's we've become pretty good at dialing in our sound as we always practice at stage volume (it's really fucking loud in our practice space lol). We usually get good feedback (no pun intended) about our live sound if it's a situation like this. 

As soon as a sound guy starts micing up our amps (or even worse, wanting a DI for the bass) we kinda know that the sound in the room is going to be shit, and it shows when people come up to us afterwards saying "yeah you were really good but i couldn't hear the guitar/bass, only drums and vocals. There's really only been 1 or 2 exceptions to this thus far.


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## TedEH (Jan 25, 2019)

Mprinsje said:


> As soon as a sound guy starts micing up our amps (or even worse, wanting a DI for the bass) we kinda know that the sound in the room is going to be shit


Do you mean because of the room itself, or because of the sound guy? I can agree insofar as a lot of sound guys are just..... not very good. Ideally, PA support should be just that: support. It's there to enhance and correct the sound of the band, make sure that you're audible throughout the whole room, etc. If PA support makes you sound worse, then something has gone wrong.  And I'll agree that some rooms just sound bad, and there's only so much that can be done about it. I know a couple of venues that tend to sound really bad as soon as anyone who has never been in that room before gets behind the sound. There's so much that can go wrong to make a band sound less-than-intended, and I don't doubt that after a while you start being able to see the signs before it happens.

That being said, if instead you mean to say that your particular arrangement can only ever sound good without PA support, regardless of the room or sound guy, then I stick by my self-sabotage comment. At that point, you can never play in a larger venue since nobody at the back of the room would be able to hear anything. I mean, even the idea of relying on the on-stage guitar and bass cabs to project everything into the room means that your location in the room is going to hugely impact what you hear. Stand near the bassist, all you get is BWOOM BWOOM from their cab. Stand near the guitarist, all you get is practically white noise. Stand in the back of the room, and all you get is the drum mics. It's great if you can make it work in the places you currently play, but it sounds to me like you've limited yourself.

Even the loudest bands I've seen had PA support. The last "loud" show I can remember seeing I think was High on Fire - and I know we've seen (and opened for) other bands in a similar vein who would roll into these tiny venues with mountains of cabs, and as much as they made it work, the volume was insane and there's no way it would have worked out without the sound guy bringing his A game.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 25, 2019)

Mprinsje said:


> A lot of shows we play the drums are miced out and the sound guy asks us if we want our cabs miced up. Usually we tell him not to bother with it so we can just crank it. When there's no drum mic's we've become pretty good at dialing in our sound as we always practice at stage volume (it's really fucking loud in our practice space lol). We usually get good feedback (no pun intended) about our live sound if it's a situation like this.
> 
> As soon as a sound guy starts micing up our amps (or even worse, wanting a DI for the bass) we kinda know that the sound in the room is going to be shit, and it shows when people come up to us afterwards saying "yeah you were really good but i couldn't hear the guitar/bass, only drums and vocals. There's really only been 1 or 2 exceptions to this thus far.


If the sound guy is any good, he's not going to put any of the guitar/bass into the mains unless its necessary. If you're playing a larger room, you need that PA support unless you're rocking four 4x12s on each side of the stage or something. Just out of curiosity, how often do you get to get our in front of the stage to hear what you sound like in the room?


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## Mprinsje (Jan 25, 2019)

TedEH said:


> Wall of text



It's usually the sound guy. When we play in venues where they actually mic up amps the sound system is usually pretty good, it's just a sound guy who works with mostly pop/rock and who doesn't really know how to dial this kind of music in. And we're not the kinda guys that want to anoy the sound guy so when he asks us to turn down we do it, but by then we kinda know already that the sound in the room is going to be sub-par. Sometimes there's good sound guys that listen to our style of music, and then we almost never get the question to turn our amps down lol, almost always it's "yeah it's fine, you do what you need to do and i'll handle it here". Those are the best kind of shows.

And it's not that our stuff can't be done without good PA support, it's just drums, 2 guitars, bass and vocals. Nothing special except we personally prefer playing loud. With a good sound guy we love to make good use of the PA, makes everything sound better. However, the kind of venues we mostly play (small ones, often without a stage) don't really have good sound guys most of the time (or any sound guy at all) so we prefer to do it our way if we do see that. We're not playing to thousands of people lol, we're playing to 25 people in a squatted building (not exclusively, it's kind of moving up now but that's what it used to be like)

Also, High On Fire is great live. Sleep was even better (and even louder). Loudest thing i've ever seen was probably Full of Hell playing a noise set with Merzbow, that was just insane. Or Boris playing their entire first album last year.



GunpointMetal said:


> If the sound guy is any good, he's not going to put any of the guitar/bass into the mains unless its necessary. If you're playing a larger room, you need that PA support unless you're rocking four 4x12s on each side of the stage or something. Just out of curiosity, how often do you get to get our in front of the stage to hear what you sound like in the room?



Yeah if the sound guy is good he won't really do that, and those are the good shows. And we honestly very rarely play large enough rooms to really be needing that PA support for guitar and bass. How often we get in front of the stage depends, as we're not running wireless systems so we're kinda limited movement wise . In the smaller venues (with barely a stage to speak of) we can do that yeah. Although our vocalist isn't ever on the stage to begin with.


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