# Condensors for live use?



## Jason (Dec 8, 2006)

I got 2 pair of condensors that I wanna use for overheads for drums. Now I know I maybe/probably get a ton of bleed. I'm hoping if i keep the drum monitors down it will be ok. Now the question is which will be better Large diaphram or small diaphram?

I was thinking of using the smaller ones but now I'm not so sure.

http://mxlmics.com/condenser_mic/condenser_index.html

http://mxlmics.com/tech_advice/tech_advice_index.html


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## Christopher (Dec 8, 2006)

For live, I'd go with the small diaphrams. I like using the big one's in the studio for overheads but live you're going to want the litte ones.

I have a pair of Carvin small diaphrams I use on our drum kit live. I didn't want to spend a whole lot and have them beat to hell. They work pretty damn well. I've used them in a pinch in the studio too. Sucks being on tiny budget.

Oh and don't worry about a little bleed. I actually count on it. In smallish to medium clubs I usually only throw a kick, snare, and pair of overheads on a kit anyway. The overheads are great at grabbing cymbals and toms, live.


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## eleven59 (Dec 8, 2006)

.jason. said:


> ...keep the drum monitors down it will be ok.



Good luck with that 


I mean...y'know...finding a drummer with a decent level of hearing left


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 8, 2006)

Small diaphragms. I've used my Nady SD condensers on live drums lots of times. Bleed shmeed. You just have to watch levels, since those fuckers will pick up everything. Generally, most clubs don't even need the cymbals mic'd, as you probably know. But I like 'em mic'd, so, I'd say use 'em.


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

Well I went with the large diaphram's IT appears they have a tighter pattern. I'll let you guys know tomorrow how they came out.


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## Popsyche (Dec 9, 2006)

Remember to cut the livin' shit out of the lows. No need in a cymbal mic! High pass filter is best!


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

Popsyche said:


> Remember to cut the livin' shit out of the lows. No need in a cymbal mic! High pass filter is best!



Actaully. Things changed the sound guy was a douche. Refused to give me any feeds of the board so I just wound up using the 2 condensors as room mics. So the recording should be pretty craptacular.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

Why wouldn't he give you any board feeds?


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Why wouldn't he give you any board feeds?



He refused to unplug anything from the back of the board.  the dude was a frazzled spaz  I was just LOOKING at the board and he was getting upset.


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## Popsyche (Dec 9, 2006)

.jason. said:


> Actaully. Things changed the sound guy was a douche. Refused to give me any feeds of the board so I just wound up using the 2 condensors as room mics. So the recording should be pretty craptacular.



I fucking hate those asswipes! Jeeze, just do your job, and set up the mics. Lame soundguys really piss me off!


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

Popsyche said:


> I fucking hate those asswipes! Jeeze, just do your job, and set up the mics. Lame soundguys really piss me off!



yep. so i pretty much didn't get shit for a recording. We weren't planning on micing stuff ourselves so noone brought mics really..


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

What a douche. Why do people act like that? Lack all social skills or something, Jesus. I can just picture soem asshat getting all worked up, ;cause, God forbid! Someone might touch his precious mixing board! 

Jeez, dude, there are people out there who know a thing or two.


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

When he finally said well i can give you a sub mix.. I was like ok.  so not wanting to be a pain i handed him my 8channel snake and sai "here pick two colors and let me know which two they are" He replies " I would rather you just pick em and tell me which 2" all frustrated  So i said fine. "here black and white"  serious asshat..


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

So why didn't you use that? A stereo sub mix striaght out the board sounds like it would be fine for a recording?


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> So why didn't you use that? A stereo sub mix striaght out the board sounds like it would be fine for a recording?



Well I used that plus the 2 room mics. Just to get as much as I could. BUT the sub mix was not dry it was the same feed going to the house. So it was all messed and compressed too..


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

Huh! Wow, sounds like it will be... shitty! 

Using mics and a compressed house feed.  I wonder how that will sound? Seems like maybe a ton of wierd phasing stuff might creep up?

Good luck with it, dude. Better you than me.


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

Well I figured I would grab both but only use one


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## Popsyche (Dec 9, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> So why didn't you use that? A stereo sub mix striaght out the board sounds like it would be fine for a recording?



Actually, unless your playing somewhere extremely large, the board mix should suck. All that is coming through the mixer(ideally) is the stuff that isn't loud enough on it's own, hence the term reinforcement. Generally, these mixes have blasting vocals, some bass, next to no guitar, blistering keyboard levels(god forbid, if you have to endure one of those), and some obscure drum mix.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

Popsyche said:


> Actually, unless your playing somewhere extremely large, the board mix should suck. All that is coming through the mixer(ideally) is the stuff that isn't loud enough on it's own, hence the term reinforcement. Generally, these mixes have blasting vocals, some bass, next to no guitar, blistering keyboard levels(god forbid, if you have to endure one of those), and some obscure drum mix.



Not the way I mix.


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

Popsyche said:


> Actually, unless your playing somewhere extremely large, the board mix should suck. All that is coming through the mixer(ideally) is the stuff that isn't loud enough on it's own, hence the term reinforcement. Generally, these mixes have blasting vocals, some bass, next to no guitar, blistering keyboard levels(god forbid, if you have to endure one of those), and some obscure drum mix.



They had all vox thru the board,bass,guitars,keys,sampler and kick and snare...and the place was tiny 

http://www.skybar.us/


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## Popsyche (Dec 9, 2006)

.jason. said:


> They had all vox thru the board,bass,guitars,keys,sampler and kick and snare...and the place was tiny
> 
> http://www.skybar.us/



I sure hope not all at equal levels! I have been mixing for 30 years and one of my pet peeves is sound guys that think just because they bought a drum mic, they need toi hear it. Really, I will usually only punch up a couple frequencies, and not just blast shit. If you want a board mix while your playing, take it off of an unused pre fader aux bus, and mix it before the show somewhat. Of course, this sounds to be way past the skill level of that asshole.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

.jason. said:


> They had all vox thru the board,bass,guitars,keys,sampler and kick and snare...and the place was tiny ]


There's different approaches to house/PA mixing. I much prefer to have stage levels low, directed monitors (or even better, in-ear), and a full-range mix through the PA. Always sounds better to me. And! Some overheads for the drums.

The 'sound reinforcement' method Bill mentions is sure as shit viable, but it almost always sounds like crap, unless the people manning the board really know what they're doing. Otherwise, all you get is mud, mud, mud fucking vocals, mega kick drum, and bass out the ass.  And it seems like the nicer the gear the house uses, with that approach, the worse the sound.


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

I dunno bill. It sounded halfway decent FOH. I haven't gotten a chance to listen to the recorded mix yet.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

Popsyche said:


> If you want a board mix while your playing, take it off of an unused pre fader aux bus, and mix it before the show somewhat. Of course, this sounds to be way past the skill level of that asshole.


 that's the best way for sure.


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## Popsyche (Dec 9, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> There's different approaches to house/PA mixing. I much prefer to have stage levels low, directed monitors (or even better, in-ear), and a full-range mix through the PA. Always sounds better to me. And! Some overheads for the drums.
> 
> The 'sound reinforcement' method Bill mentions is sure as shit viable, but it almost always sounds like crap, unless the people manning the board really know what they're doing. Otherwise, all you get is mud, mud, mud fucking vocals, mega kick drum, and bass out the ass.  And it seems like the nicer the gear the house uses, with that approach, the worse the sound.



Now Bob, you and I both know how often that happens. I play at a very low level, and ye are truly blessed if you have a drummer that isn't out to prove how much abuse his kit can take. I'm in one of the few bands that regularly asks for the monitors to be turned down. Having a band understand low stage volume is a pure luxury! I wish more did!


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

You are axo-facto right, Bill. 

I guess I was spoiled by mostly doing sound for my band, where I had total 'dictator-like control' over sound.  I mean, it _can_ be done right, and like you say, most small clubs do it that way. I've heard a FEW (rare) cases where it worked.

But holy shit, the louder the system, the less you need it for 'reinforcement' and more for total sound projection!


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## Drew (Dec 9, 2006)

.jason. said:


> They had all vox thru the board,bass,guitars,keys,sampler and kick and snare...and the place was tiny
> 
> http://www.skybar.us/



 

Jason, you realize that place is a ten minute walk from my place, right? And that I've got about another five mics you could have borrowed in a pinch when you realized ou had to mic up, right?


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## Christopher (Dec 9, 2006)

Sorry shit went south for you Jason. For some guys just getting a usable FOH mix is a challenge, when you start talking about recording as well, there's some panic! He probably got worried because you'd see how poorly he had things set up.

I'm with the Wolf on mixing methods. We run in ears though so every fuckin' thing gets mic'd up and worked. I run four different mono IEM mixes (one each for each player) and then pick and choose what I want for the FOH. 

We have an abusive drummer but I run everything else direct to board (keys, bass, guitar, vocals) and I use my cab for a little extra monitor.

Recording us is super easy though as I'll take the pre fader direct outs on each channel and snake their happy asses over to my pro tools rig and do all the mixing later. If I have the channel space (damn Digi 002 with it's 16 input limit) I'll throw up a room mic or two.

In my neck of the woods 99% of the guys standing behind a mixer are there by default and have no idea what they're doing. Some are cool and admit it and others just try to make you believe it.


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## Jason (Dec 9, 2006)

Drew said:


> Jason, you realize that place is a ten minute walk from my place, right? And that I've got about another five mics you could have borrowed in a pinch when you realized ou had to mic up, right?



Yeah I kinda noticed that.. We got off the highway. "This looks kinda familar" Oh and if you checked out the live performace section you woulda seen my post they were playing.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 9, 2006)

Christopher said:


> I'm with the Wolf on mixing methods. We run in ears though so every fuckin' thing gets mic'd up and worked. I run four different mono IEM mixes (one each for each player) and then pick and choose what I want for the FOH.
> 
> We have an abusive drummer but I run everything else direct to board (keys, bass, guitar, vocals) and I use my cab for a little extra monitor.
> 
> Recording us is super easy though as I'll take the pre fader direct outs on each channel and snake their happy asses over to my pro tools rig and do all the mixing later. If I have the channel space (damn Digi 002 with it's 16 input limit) I'll throw up a room mic or two..


Exactly! This is the way I learned to mix. You can even get away with wedge monitors, as long as stage volume is _under control_. Optimally, everything goes through FOH, you just tweak levels. If everything is done carefully, you can even get away with a stereo sub-mix of everything, for quick n' dirty recordings (although obviously not ideal). 

I want to get a new laptop, and a killer multi-line input for it.


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## Jason (Dec 10, 2006)

The Dark Wolf said:


> I want to get a new laptop, and a killer multi-line input for it.



Decent laptop and a pair of firepods


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 10, 2006)

I've got a pretty cool laptop, and a decent Behringer USB interface.

But I want something top of the line, and a mega input for the computer.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--EMU1616M

But those Firepods look great for a portable rack setup, though.


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## Jason (Dec 12, 2006)

*update* I haven't listened yet..cause we tracked on a laptop that wasn't mine..BUT I guess it came out pretty fucked up  Suprisingly the video I did off a kodak digi cam came out halfway decent. I'll post it up when I get a chance if anyone wants to hear it.


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