# Javier Reyes got a Claas.. savagery ensued



## KnightBrolaire (Apr 20, 2018)

Oh this won't end poorly at all..


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## Wolfos (Apr 20, 2018)

Woah


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## JEngelking (Apr 20, 2018)




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## jephjacques (Apr 20, 2018)

it looks fine to me? maybe I'm just not seeing it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 20, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> it looks fine to me? maybe I'm just not seeing it.


the high b bridge is slightly off but other than that there's nothing too bad that I can see from the pic. We haven't been shown any fretwork shots or anything yet though...
















at least he's figured out how to route properly now, unlike when he made this abomination.


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

Looks like the control panel cover is suppressed on the top and jutting out a bit on the bottom. Not important, but not a great sign.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 20, 2018)

I really want to like his guitars. But ehhhhhhh


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## Wolfos (Apr 20, 2018)

It also looks like a weird stain on the back near the neck joint.


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## Shoeless_jose (Apr 20, 2018)

I dont understand the design ethos with the neck joint and such, but I'm an ERG noob


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## Randy (Apr 20, 2018)

Ah my favorite past time. Armchair QC department.


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 20, 2018)

Randy said:


> Ah my favorite past time. Armchair QC department.



I think people have these guitars and like them...
but the Ngd's here have been savage.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 20, 2018)

firsthand experience with claas


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## jephjacques (Apr 20, 2018)

yiiiiiiikes


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

Randy said:


> Ah my favorite past time. Armchair QC department.



We'll come on man -- it's not like we're being nitpicky, the great Wall of China and the gaps in those pickup routes are the only man made objects visible from space.


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## Randy (Apr 20, 2018)

narad said:


> We'll come on man -- it's not like we're being nitpicky, the great Wall of China and the gaps in those pickup routes are the only man made objects visible from space.



That pic is fair game but the Facebook comments and the stuff about the saddles/tuners is a fucking joke. The fact that this thread kicked off with the same tone is beneath this board, and that's saying a lot.


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

Randy said:


> That pic is fair game but the Facebook comments and the stuff about the saddles/tuners is a fucking joke. The fact that this thread kicked off with the same tone is beneath this board, and that's saying a lot.



You don't think the saddle spacing and alignment is a QC issue? I mean, not sure it's significant enough to matter, but seems a bit subpar. I wouldn't be particularly thrilled to get that (if it wasn't something I could just rotate by hand myself -- not sure if those saddles have screw mounts on one side and are just pivoting around one anchor point, or if multiple, and it's poorly measured)

I can't remember how expensive these are though - weren't they ultimately selling below $2k?


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## NateFalcon (Apr 20, 2018)

Some guitar builders need to brush up on their finishing work, I see...the pits and pockmarks in the first two picks are pretty amateur. It seams like proper grain filling, prep and spraying is the last technique to be perfected by some luthiers and smaller builders


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## narad (Apr 20, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Some guitar builders need to brush up on their finishing work, I see...the pits and pockmarks in the first two picks are pretty amateur. It seams like proper grain filling, prep and spraying is the last technique to be perfected by some luthiers and smaller builders



That's becoming trendy though, so you can't blame that entirely on unintentionally shoddy finish work.


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## Randy (Apr 20, 2018)

Two separate points, really. Yeah if the saddles are off and not easily adjusted straight that's a legitimate QC issue. 

That's a separate point from "LAWL CLAAS IS TRASH" and reposting the old builds as confirmation the guy doesn't know how to build a guitar, not how far he's come (which he even admitted to, despite being flamed).

But the general thing of people with no interest in an item in the first place just sitting on the sidelines to throw bombs fuckin annoys me. Nothing wrong with criticsm or different opinions but flaming is just lame.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Apr 21, 2018)

Just to confirm, the second guitar that KnightBrolaire posted (with the atrocious pickup routing and bridge routing amongst over a handful of other observable issues and flaws), that guitar was built AFTER Javier's here and only recently posted on the CLAAS Facebook page.

CLAAS hasn't gotten any better at building. Just better at trying to cover his bullshit up. He is the new/current Etherial. In fact, the two of them are neck-and-neck for the most clueless builder award for this decade.


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## Randy (Apr 21, 2018)

That's a fair point, then.


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## NateFalcon (Apr 21, 2018)

I’m not bashing the guitar...if it was intentional then cool, if it wasn’t for sale I wouldn’t comment on the finish at all. Once you start charging money for your work though you’re going to be “evaluated” on the final results. Production companies are also guilty of bad finishes, and subpar finishing techniques...


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## cardinal (Apr 21, 2018)

Dineley said:


> I dont understand the design ethos with the neck joint and such, but I'm an ERG noob



I think the idea is that a stiffer neck is likely to have more sustain and fewer dead spots than a more flexible neck. And longer necks, common with long scale ERGs and basses, tend to flex more. 

There are various ways to stiffen the neck: make it thicker, add some type of internal reinforcement, or make it physically shorter by extending the heel way up the neck. 

This extreme single-cut idea started with basses as a way to try to make the neck physically shorter by extending the heel way up the neck. To help with fret access, the joint extends only along the bass side. 

It’s also a way to get a strap pin farther out and closer to the nut, which is helpful when you have the long and wide neck-heavy guitars. Of course you could just have a double cutaway and a long top horn, but connecting that long horn to the neck helps stiffen it, so it’s kind of a twofer


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## Shoeless_jose (Apr 21, 2018)

cardinal said:


> I think the idea is that a stiffer neck is likely to have more sustain and fewer dead spots than a more flexible neck. And longer necks, common with long scale ERGs and basses, tend to flex more.
> 
> There are various ways to stiffen the neck: make it thicker, add some type of internal reinforcement, or make it physically shorter by extending the heel way up the neck.
> 
> ...




Fair enough. Maybe makescmore sense for basses. 

I have a 28# scale neck through double cutaway. Neck is 11 pieces with rods.... I notice no issues


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 21, 2018)

it's supposed to increase bass response and attack as well.
claas wasn't the first one to do it on guitars. the idea is sound in theory.
I was all ready to buy one before I read the terrible Ngd posts here.


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## A-Branger (Apr 21, 2018)

could look good, but I always hated how it pushes the "neck" pickup into a more of a middle possition. Kinda useless


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## USMarine75 (Apr 21, 2018)




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## diagrammatiks (Apr 21, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> could look good, but I always hated how it pushes the "neck" pickup into a more of a middle possition. Kinda useless



That’s more to do with his design then the idea behind the longer joint. There’s no reason the pickup has to be pushed that far.


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## A-Branger (Apr 22, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> That’s more to do with his design then the idea behind the longer joint. There’s no reason the pickup has to be pushed that far.


well the idea is to get that big neck pockect, as a result, the neck pickup cant be at the edge of the fretboard due to the bolts, so the pickup has to be moved further down towards the middle. Not sure if this specific gutiar of Javier is pushed a bit further jsut because, but due to the design of the gutiar theres nothing to really do about it, and thats something I always look at it when I see any of these guitars


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## narad (Apr 22, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> well the idea is to get that big neck pockect, as a result, the neck pickup cant be at the edge of the fretboard due to the bolts, so the pickup has to be moved further down towards the middle. Not sure if this specific gutiar of Javier is pushed a bit further jsut because, but due to the design of the gutiar theres nothing to really do about it, and thats something I always look at it when I see any of these guitars



Could try using less than 10 bolts on the neck


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 22, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> well the idea is to get that big neck pockect, as a result, the neck pickup cant be at the edge of the fretboard due to the bolts, so the pickup has to be moved further down towards the middle. Not sure if this specific gutiar of Javier is pushed a bit further jsut because, but due to the design of the gutiar theres nothing to really do about it, and thats something I always look at it when I see any of these guitars



This looks ok.


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## USMarine75 (Apr 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>





diagrammatiks said:


> This looks ok.












Meh, these still work fine for me. Now get off my f*&king lawn and take your damn firewood with you.


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## Avedas (Apr 23, 2018)

I might actually prefer playing a spaceship to a Les Paul.


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## jephjacques (Apr 25, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> Meh, these still work fine for me. Now get off my f*&king lawn and take your damn firewood with you.


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## ixlramp (Apr 26, 2018)

Ugh that thread. Somehow FB seems to cause aggravated communication, i've noticed it in that supposedly 'ERG enthusiast' group (where narrow-minded people hate on anything over 8 strings instead of anything over 6). The difference compared to this forum is amazing.

Claas have one of the best designs i have ever seen, especially that neck joint, really hope his quality improves.

The neck pickup is only 1 inch from the 24th fret, it could be half an inch closer.

The 'neck pickup' issue of guitar bothers me due to the degree it screws up design because of the supposed need to get it as close to the 24th fret as possible. It's why most bolt-ons have tiny neck joints and ugly neck heels that obstruct high-fret access, apparently you are supposed to keep your thumb above the heel and stretch your hand, but i play with good healthy technique and so can't play beyond a neck heel.
It also compromises neck-throughs and generally reduces the strength of a guitar in the critical area around the neck joint.
I have always considered common bolt-on neck joints as being too small and weak for the job they are meant to do.


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## laxu (Apr 26, 2018)

I like the guitar design visually, except it could probably use half the screws (or just glue the neck in or make it a neckthru), shame about the quality.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Apr 26, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> CLAAS hasn't gotten any better at building. Just better at trying to cover his bullshit up. He is the new/current Etherial. In fact, the two of them are neck-and-neck for the most clueless builder award for this decade.



I mean...I kind of doubt it, familia.
Ethereal was bad. _Real_ bad. _*Really really*_ bad.

At least Claas' designs are good, people seem to like them. Nothing looks fundamentally incorrect.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 26, 2018)

All kinds of posts in here lamenting the fact that Claas' quality doesn't live up to the designs, but there's better options out there. Why roll the dice? 

@narad is being humble as always, but he just sold a Padalka bass that was absolutely stunning; it had a very similar aesthetic to Claas, especially in the shaping of the upper bout. I perused Padalka's site a few weeks ago, and both his designs and quality of craftsmanship seem impeccable. If I were in the market for that kind of ERG, I wouldn't bother waiting for Claas to get his shit together when there's so many other great luthiers out there already producing guitars worth buying. 

For comparison: 

(It's not one for one, but I know which brand I'd buy...)


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## narad (Apr 26, 2018)

^^ Padalka is incredible. I'd put his build quality up there with anything I own, which makes his prices relatively insane(ly low). That a Vik can sell for $4-5k+ and Padalka's are mostly in the $3k range is ridiculous.

So yea, I mean, Claas and Padalka, might as well compare a Kiesel to a PRS Private Stock.


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## KnightBrolaire (Apr 26, 2018)

I still kick myself for not getting a saturn from him before he raised his prices.


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## JEngelking (Apr 27, 2018)

Sermo Lupi said:


>



Dat bass.  

I'll be in my bunk...


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## ixlramp (Apr 27, 2018)

I love Padalka but the back of the neck nowhere near as stunningly unobstructed as the Claas, and Claas do it with a bolt-on, therefore with more possibility as a low-cost design.
Claas' design still seems more ergonomic, innovative and clever, although with less quality and sculptural beauty. Padalka's designs are essentially more conventional, but without looking it.
Claas are more dedicated to headless too.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 27, 2018)

Actually that Saturn is a bolt-on. I don't see what makes Claas' guitars more 'ergonomic, innovative or clever,' but I'd agree that the neckjoint on the Claas is more accessible. The one on Padalka's Saturn seems about as accessible as a modern superstrat:


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 27, 2018)

ixlramp said:


> I love Padalka but the back of the neck nowhere near as stunningly unobstructed as the Claas, and Claas do it with a bolt-on, therefore with more possibility as a low-cost design.
> Claas' design still seems more ergonomic, innovative and clever, although with less quality and sculptural beauty. Padalka's designs are essentially more conventional, but without looking it.
> Claas are more dedicated to headless too.



Nothing is more innovative and clever than ripping off an idea from Rick Toone.


http://www.ricktoone.com/2015/02/old-growth-walnut-eight-string-guitar.html

That's a relatively newer example, but he's done similar construction for years prior.

And it's all just a reboot of the Stephen's Extended Cutaway from the 80's.

Claas probably has the worst execution of the three. They just make the neck "bigger" and plop it on the front of the body, which not only looks awful having that big squared off part but limits pickup placement as you mentioned. The Stephen's and Toone designs move the neck joint out of the way while not negatively affecting the design or placement of other components.


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## Sermo Lupi (Apr 27, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> And it's all just a reboot of the Stephen's Extended Cutaway from the 80's.



Yeah, for all Rick's innovations, I think he's more of a stepping stone on this one. Stephen's Extended Cutaway is progenitor of the idea so far as I know, although I don't doubt Claas probably lurks Rick Toone's blog.


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## narad (Apr 27, 2018)

ixlramp said:


> I love Padalka but the back of the neck nowhere near as stunningly unobstructed as the Claas


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## Hollowway (Apr 28, 2018)

Yeah, I don’t want to bag too much on the Class design (because I do like it), but there is nothing sexier than the back of that Padalka. There’s a little drool coming out of my mouth, just looking at it.


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## Beheroth (Apr 28, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I don’t want to bag too much on the Class design (because I do like it), but there is nothing sexier than the back of that Padalka. There’s a little c*m coming out of my d**k, just looking at it.


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## jephjacques (Apr 29, 2018)

narad said:


>


F A T A L I T Y


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## AxeHappy (Apr 29, 2018)

Well, fuck. Now I've browsed through Padalka's galleries for the first time.

I'm gonna have to work more overtime now you jerks.


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## narad (Apr 29, 2018)

AxeHappy said:


> Well, fuck. Now I've browsed through Padalka's galleries for the first time.
> 
> I'm gonna have to work more overtime now you jerks.



Well I just finished mocking up a Neptune double neck bass/guitar, so I'm not happy either! Hrmph!


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## narad (May 15, 2018)

So Claas was actually at the Holy Grail guitar show, like the pinnacle of solidbody exhibitions... wonder if anyone who was there noticed any glaring issues. The routes are at least superficially better than these other ones posted throughout the thread:


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## NateFalcon (May 15, 2018)

They remind me of 80’s key-tars lol


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## MaxOfMetal (May 15, 2018)

narad said:


> So Claas was actually at the Holy Grail guitar show, like the pinnacle of solidbody exhibitions... wonder if anyone who was there noticed any glaring issues. The routes are at least superficially better than these other ones posted throughout the thread:



From the looks of it, when he feels like it he can make what looks like a flawless instrument. He just doesn't always seem to feel like it. 

Like some other builders, while I'm sure the potential is there, I would never ever flip the coin on them. There are far too many builders with significantly better odds.


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## A-Branger (May 16, 2018)

narad said:


> So Claas was actually at the Holy Grail guitar show, like the pinnacle of solidbody exhibitions... wonder if anyone who was there noticed any glaring issues. The routes are at least superficially better than these other ones posted throughout the thread:



is it me or it doesnt have a nut?, jsut the 0 fret?..... I know the locking nut is there and it wont really affect much on the low string, but on the higher string theres enough string behind the 0 fret in order to move around. ? or its too close to do something?


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## Zhysick (May 16, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> is it me or it doesnt have a nut?, jsut the 0 fret?..... I know the locking nut is there and it wont really affect much on the low string, but on the higher string theres enough string behind the 0 fret in order to move around. ? or its too close to do something?



In my experience (and by looking from the pic: I have NOT played that guitar) it's not that far to make you feel anything weird while playing... if anything the vibratos and bendings in the firsts frets can be a bit easier but I have never felt that advantage while playing guitars with similar construction -> no nut + zero fret

On the other hand... slanted neck pickup but straight bridge in a multiscale guitar? Why the hell would you do that?
Also... can anybody explain me WHY would you install lace alumitones upside down? (I'm talking about the straight scale one on the last pick... the Lace logo is upside down as you can clearly see...) Maybe those are custom made for Claas or something and sound different depending on the orientation? Because my experience with alumitones (x-bars and deathbars) was that doesn't matter not even a tiny bit... perfectly symmetrical construction.


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## prlgmnr (May 16, 2018)

So that the name is the right way up when you look at it from playing position.


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## Dcm81 (May 16, 2018)

Zhysick said:


> On the other hand... slanted neck pickup but straight bridge in a multiscale guitar? Why the hell would you do that?



Aren't the saddles the critical part on a multiscale, with the end piece being more equivalent to the stop tail on a TOM? Just like the lucking nut part being straight and the multiscale feature relying on a slanted nut or zero-fret......or am I way off base here?


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## Dayn (May 16, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> They remind me of 80’s key-tars lol


Damn you, I was kinda digging the aesthetic but now all I can think of are clunky 80s electronics. And here I was about to say I kinda like the properly-done ones.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

Dcm81 said:


> Aren't the saddles the critical part on a multiscale, with the end piece being more equivalent to the stop tail on a TOM? Just like the lucking nut part being straight and the multiscale feature relying on a slanted nut or zero-fret......or am I way off base here?



I believe he's referring to the pickups.


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## Dcm81 (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I believe he's referring to the pickups.



I was referring to the "straight bridge" part and my uncertainty if that's really the part that matters on a multi-scale....basically fishing for a confirmation or correction


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

Zhysick said:


> On the other hand... slanted neck pickup but straight bridge *pickup* in a multiscale guitar? Why the hell would you do that?





Dcm81 said:


> I was referring to the "straight bridge" part and my uncertainty if that's really the part that matters on a multi-scale....basically fishing for a confirmation or correction


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## Dcm81 (May 16, 2018)

Wow......just....yeah, best just shoot me now 
About as much attention to detail as some of those guitars!


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## MaxOfMetal (May 16, 2018)

You are totally correct though, a slanted or straight tailpiece doesn't really mean anything. It's all about the slant of the bridge itself, where the strings sit in thier saddles. 

A lot of hollow bodies have ornate, often slanted tailpieces, even though they're single scale, because the bridge is still straight.


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## Semi-pro (May 16, 2018)

Small but annoying detail: in the first of those Holy Grail show guitars it seems like the pickup is fixed with torx key screws. Why?! What are the odds you've got a fitting key at hand when you want to adjust the pickups. And not only that, but with countersunk heads. You do not use countersunk heads against metal unless the hole is also countersunk! Argh! Is he building a terrace or a guitar?

Most diy guys have a well thought variety of different screws for each part. For commercial purposes that should be obvious.


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## SamSam (May 16, 2018)

The pickup routing still looks off in the first photo, the left bridge pickup ear cavity looks a little off on the bridge and the neck on the same side it appears as though it is screwed in off centre. Might just be me but it still looks off. It does appear to be a fair improvement though.


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## j3ps3 (May 16, 2018)

Saw them in person at Holy Grail as we were there with our class of lutherie school. I've only been building instruments for two years but even to me they looked pretty shoddy when inspecting more carefully. You could see sanding scratches and stuff like that. The guy also was a giant douche. Friend has a habit of testing instruments with sweep picking and immediate comment was that "You can't play that kind of stuff with my instruments". Friend also tried to ask questions about the instrument but was completely ignored. I was really looking forward to see these instruments in person, but eh. The way he acted turned me away from the whole brand.

Also, I can't for my life believe, that these will keep in tune without the nut. At least that's my experience with instruments with just a zero fret. One bend and that's pretty much it.


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## ixlramp (May 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> ripping off an idea from Rick Toone.


'Ripping off' is a loaded phrase to use, guitar designers are always ripping each other off, especially superstrats. Didn't mean to imply Claas invented that neck joint, but it's done better by Claas.


MaxOfMetal said:


> limits pickup placement as you mentioned. The Stephen's and Toone designs move the neck joint out of the way while not negatively affecting the design or placement of other components.


The Stephens and Toone designs are more obstructed on the back of the neck because of that, and are much more ugly to my eyes.
Personally i don't care about the neck pickup not being up against the highest fret, that position is too warm and boomy for me to be useful and this tradition causes many problems in guitar design.
I also have strange taste in neck heels, i am not comfortable playing any fret higher than any obstruction on the back of the neck. Claas are almost completely unobstructed behind most of the highest fret, which is something you very rarely see.


Hollowway said:


> but there is nothing sexier than the back of that Padalka. There’s a little drool coming out of my mouth, just looking at it.


I agree, however it is not nearly as unobstructed as the Class, the construction is smoothly getting thicker in the area where the Claas has unchanged neck thickness.


Zhysick said:


> can anybody explain me WHY would you install lace alumitones upside down?


I don't care about text on a pickup. It's only upside-down because the guitar is neck upwards, if the guitar was horizontal they are sideways. They may be wired on the side so perhaps the orientation was chosen to reduce wire lengths or some construction reason (i wonder, although of course it's possible there's no good reason due to the sloppiness) that's more important than upsidedown text.

To be clear though, i am not disputing any quality and sloppiness issues with Claas.


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## Lemonbaby (May 17, 2018)

+1 for the zero fret causing headaches without a nut right behind it. Besides, I don't think very much of these paranoid neck joints. However, I actually had a longer chat with Alex (Claas) at Holy Grail 2016 and he's a really nice guy.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 17, 2018)

j3ps3 said:


> Saw them in person at Holy Grail as we were there with our class of lutherie school. I've only been building instruments for two years but even to me they looked pretty shoddy when inspecting more carefully. You could see sanding scratches and stuff like that. The guy also was a giant douche. Friend has a habit of testing instruments with sweep picking and immediate comment was that "You can't play that kind of stuff with my instruments". Friend also tried to ask questions about the instrument but was completely ignored. I was really looking forward to see these instruments in person, but eh. The way he acted turned me away from the whole brand.
> 
> Also, I can't for my life believe, that these will keep in tune without the nut. At least that's my experience with instruments with just a zero fret. One bend and that's pretty much it.



My steinberger has a zero fret with a similar amount of string length behind it and is stable as hell on tuning. It's really not an issue when there's only an inch or so of length behind the zero fret. 

I think Claas's design is very cool, albeit with some room for refinement. Build quality might not be there, but it seems to me like people are throwing the baby out with the bathwater when they start bashing on the ideas rather than the execution.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 17, 2018)

Semi-pro said:


> Small but annoying detail: in the first of those Holy Grail show guitars it seems like the pickup is fixed with torx key screws. Why?! What are the odds you've got a fitting key at hand when you want to adjust the pickups. And not only that, but with countersunk heads. You do not use countersunk heads against metal unless the hole is also countersunk! Argh! Is he building a terrace or a guitar?
> 
> Most diy guys have a well thought variety of different screws for each part. For commercial purposes that should be obvious.



I don't consider torx heads to be an annoyance, personally. 

Firstly, any cheap quid-store set of tool bits, will come with some torx in. 

Secondly, torx screws are less likely to get mashed through use, whereas philips head screws are designed to cam out. Problem is, soft philips screws when they cam out also get mashed and stripped. Torx doesn't do that NEARLY as readily.

If I could, I'd have hex or torx for every screw on all of my instruments, solely because I'm sick of having to use elastic bands in the top of philips head screws to get them to move without stripping, after 5 years of sweat, dust, grime and use takes it's toll on the heads.


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## Semi-pro (May 17, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> I don't consider torx heads to be an annoyance, personally.



I agree that they're more durable and pleasant to use, but alas nowhere near a global standard. My point was that it was obviously not a choice based on design, but rather a "f*** I'm out of screws, well I'll just grab some of these" kind of thing that definitely does not give an image of a luthier that pays attention to details.


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## Semi-pro (May 17, 2018)

double


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## GuitarBizarre (May 17, 2018)

Semi-pro said:


> I agree that they're more durable and pleasant to use, but alas nowhere near a global standard. My point was that it was obviously not a choice based on design, but rather a "f*** I'm out of screws, well I'll just grab some of these" kind of thing that definitely does not give an image of a luthier that pays attention to details.


*shrug* 

It might be that, but if I were starting a luthier's business tomorrow, you bet your ass I'd put torx on everything and throw a set of bits in the case.


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## Shoeless_jose (May 17, 2018)

Semi-pro said:


> I agree that they're more durable and pleasant to use, but alas nowhere near a global standard. My point was that it was obviously not a choice based on design, but rather a "f*** I'm out of screws, well I'll just grab some of these" kind of thing that definitely does not give an image of a luthier that pays attention to details.



I don't like the design at all, but I assure you the Torx screws were intentional and not a f*** I'm out of screws situation.

My Mayones uses Torx to bolt down the neck, and also if it's for something that is more prone to needing adjustments such as pickups, I'm sure the proper tool will be included with the guitar.

Phillips screws are the most garbage design that somehow became the standard even though, Roberts and Torx and Hex are all superior just for the lack of stripping the head alone.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 17, 2018)

I’m surprised Hex isn’t used on pickup screws. Given how much Hex is used on bridges, truss rods and locking nuts.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 17, 2018)

Dineley said:


> I don't like the design at all, but I assure you the Torx screws were intentional and not a f*** I'm out of screws situation.
> 
> My Mayones uses Torx to bolt down the neck, and also if it's for something that is more prone to needing adjustments such as pickups, I'm sure the proper tool will be included with the guitar.
> 
> Phillips screws are the most garbage design that somehow became the standard even though, Roberts and Torx and Hex are all superior just for the lack of stripping the head alone.


To be fair, philips screws are good at what they're designed for - Not allowing the user to overtighten a screw.

The problem is that over time, chinesium screws have become essentially all screws, and even cheap screwdriver manufacturers have gone from making marshmallow driver tips, to making actually, pretty solid, hard drivers and driver bits. Even those garbage chrome vanadium ones you buy from a pound shop are now quite hard.

The end result is that in the past it was usually that you'd mash your screwdriver and need to buy a better one while the screwhead was fine, you now have marshmallow screws and hard scredrivers, meaning you can strip a screwhead by looking at it wrong.

Torx, of course, doesn't have this issue, because it doesn't make any concessions to overtightening - it's design to never cam out, and to provide infinite points of engagement, thus spreading the load efficiently and preventing head damage.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 17, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I’m surprised Hex isn’t used on pickup screws. Given how much Hex is used on bridges, truss rods and locking nuts.



I'm also surprised at that, yeah. Hex is much better than philips, although it's still possible to round out a chinesium hex head by using a key that's too hard, in a head that's too soft - https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe.../220px-Torx-hex-contact-angles-forces.svg.png

The hex keys can also be a bit difficult to locate, whereas the slight chamfer on a torx driver is a godsend when trying to do things.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 17, 2018)

torx>>Hex>>>>phillips. I fucking hate phillips screws. I can't count the number of times I've been installing pickups or reinstalling bridges and had the head strip out of the screw. I'm slowly replacing all important screws on my guitars with hex or torx screws just so I don't have to deal with this.


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## Lemonbaby (May 17, 2018)

Semi-pro said:


> I agree that they're more durable and pleasant to use, but alas nowhere near a global standard. My point was that it was obviously not a choice based on design, but rather a "f*** I'm out of screws, well I'll just grab some of these" kind of thing that definitely does not give an image of a luthier that pays attention to details.


I use Torx screws for everything on my builds. It's technically the best concept, no doubt about that. I've been wondering why Phillips/Allen screws even exist with so much better options out there...


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## spudmunkey (May 17, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> I use Torx screws for everything on my builds. It's technically the best concept, no doubt about that. I've been wondering why Phillips/Allen screws even exist with so much better options out there...


 
If I remember right, and it might even be a myth, phillips screws were actually designed to "cam out", to sacrifice themselves before the material because over-driven screws can be worse than a ruined screw head. For increased torque, we should be using torx. Or heck even posidrive or Robertson, but because posidrive and Robertson only has four "catches" like Phillips, you are more likely to find yourself in a situation where you can't tighten a screw any more because you have less than 90 degrees of space in your driver's range so you can't reach back to the next engagement point. With a 6-pointed torx or hex, you only have to pull back 60 degrees to catch the next engagement point.


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## NateFalcon (May 17, 2018)

About time people got smart...ever drive 3” screws with Phillips tips? I’ve been wondering for 20 years when the industry is going to completely abandon straight and phillips fasteners.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 17, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> About time people got smart...ever drive 3” screws with Phillips tips? I’ve been wondering for 20 years when the industry is going to completely abandon straight and phillips fasteners.


I built a deck with my dad and used only hex screws/robertson (square tip). God it made life so much easier than when I built one with my uncle years back (he only bought cheap shitty phillips screws). So many stripped out screws, so little time. Conversely, I had zero issues with hex/robertson screws.


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## NateFalcon (May 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I built a deck with my dad and used only hex screws/robertson (square tip). God it made life so much easier than when I built one with my uncle years back (he only bought cheap shitty phillips screws). So many stripped out screws, so little time. Conversely, I had zero issues with hex/robertson screws.


I’ll gladly pay the extra money for the hex heads...best thing that ever happened for decking and lumber


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## cip 123 (May 17, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> If I remember right, and it might even be a myth, phillips screws were actually designed to "cam out", to sacrifice themselves before the material because over-driven screws can be worse than a ruined screw head. For increased torque, we should be using torx. Or heck even posidrive or Robertson, but because posidrive and Robertson only has four "catches" like Phillips, you are more likely to find yourself in a situation where you can't tighten a screw any more because you have less than 90 degrees of space in your driver's range so you can't reach back to the next engagement point. With a 6-pointed torx or hex, you only have to pull back 60 degrees to catch the next engagement point.




Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it's Japanese Phillips screws/screwdrivers that do that whole themselves before the material thingy. I remember reading about something similar after I noticed that screws on my Gotoh trem were a little different than regular.

I can't recall 100% but I'd look in to it.


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## NateFalcon (May 17, 2018)

Phillips screws/drivers were first designed by John Thompson to “center” the tool in the fastener and keep the screw “directed” straight for getting the screw started -developed for the machining and auto industries in the 1930’s to save time...


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## GuitarBizarre (May 18, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, I believe it's Japanese Phillips screws/screwdrivers that do that whole themselves before the material thingy. I remember reading about something similar after I noticed that screws on my Gotoh trem were a little different than regular.
> 
> I can't recall 100% but I'd look in to it.


You're referring to JIS screws, and no, they're actually the opposite - designed not to cam out whereas philips heads are.


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## cip 123 (May 18, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> You're referring to JIS screws, and no, they're actually the opposite - designed not to cam out whereas philips heads are.


Ahhh, got mixed up then. Cheers.


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## bostjan (May 18, 2018)

I hate philips screws for exactly the reason pointed out here: every philips screw sold since 1999 has been made of pot metal, so they are inevitably going to become circle screws after the third or fourth adjustment. Sadly, I think hex is already starting to go down the same path, as ~75% of hex screws used in electronics now are made of the same cheap-ass metal. Torx is an inherently better design, but it only means that, once they become popular, manufacturers will take the better design as an excuse to make screws out of chrome-plated plastic to save money.

Regarding Claas, I have mixed feelings. I admire the innovation in the designs, but I question the need for so many bolts to hold the neck in place. The workmanship is an issue best left for the people who have played these instruments to judge. It seems fairly obvious that Padlaka pays more attention to detail, but it also seems obvious that Padlaka pays more attention to detail than 99.99% of other builders out there, so it's not really a fair comparison. It'd be like I'm teaching a child how to swim and keep bashing them because they aren't as good as Michael Phelps.


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## GraemeH (Apr 7, 2019)

Zhysick said:


> slanted neck pickup but straight bridge in a multiscale guitar? Why the hell would you do that?



Slanted neck and "straight" bridge pickups on a multi-scale like that is equivalent to a straight neck pickup and slanted bridge (with lower string poles further from the bridge) on a single scale guitar, so the same as the Stratocaster has been for a billion years. It's the ratio of the scale length for a given string that the poles are away from the bridge that is important to the characteristic. Which is why even when both are slanted they should definitely not be parallel/at the same angle (which a few people got triggered about in this thread...) Having said that, the Stratocaster has always had the wrong direction on that slant IMO, but that's another matter.

And yeah first thing to do with guitars with Philips head intonation adjustment screws is replace them with hex, Torx or TorqSet. But consumers would complain about needing a £2 tool when buying a £2,000 guitar so here we are with stripped heads.

"Just buy a Padalka lol" is a bit silly, the guy takes what, 20 orders a year? Claas seems like the kind of brand you'd have to play the actual guitar you're buying before going ahead, at a show or something. But that's the case with any small builder that doesn't have a AAA+ rep like Padalka. I mean let's be honest, Javier got that for free in return for making an Instragram post of it, so he doesn't give a fuck.


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## Wolfhorsky (Apr 7, 2019)

GraemeH said:


> Slanted neck and "straight" bridge pickups on a multi-scale like that is equivalent to a straight neck pickup and slanted bridge (with lower string poles further from the bridge) on a single scale guitar, so the same as the Stratocaster has been for a billion years. It's the ratio of the scale length for a given string that the poles are away from the bridge that is important to the characteristic. Which is why even when both are slanted they should definitely not be parallel/at the same angle (which a few people got triggered about in this thread...) Having said that, the Stratocaster has always had the wrong direction on that slant IMO, but that's another matter.
> 
> And yeah first thing to do with guitars with Philips head intonation adjustment screws is replace them with hex, Torx or TorqSet. But consumers would complain about needing a £2 tool when buying a £2,000 guitar so here we are with stripped heads.
> 
> "Just buy a Padalka lol" is a bit silly, the guy takes what, 20 orders a year? Claas seems like the kind of brand you'd have to play the actual guitar you're buying before going ahead, at a show or something. But that's the case with any small builder that doesn't have a AAA+ rep like Padalka. I mean let's be honest, Javier got that for free in return for making an Instragram post of it, so he doesn't give a fuck.








Thread commented almost 1 year ago..


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## GraemeH (Apr 7, 2019)

^Lord, how did I even see this thread? I only look at page 1...


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## narad (Apr 7, 2019)

GraemeH said:


> "Just buy a Padalka lol" is a bit silly, the guy takes what, 20 orders a year? Claas seems like the kind of brand you'd have to play the actual guitar you're buying before going ahead, at a show or something. But that's the case with any small builder that doesn't have a AAA+ rep like Padalka. I mean let's be honest, Javier got that for free in return for making an Instragram post of it, so he doesn't give a fuck.



Maybe Padalka only builds 20 guitars a year, but does Claas even build guitars?


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## diagrammatiks (Apr 7, 2019)

GraemeH said:


> Slanted neck and "straight" bridge pickups on a multi-scale like that is equivalent to a straight neck pickup and slanted bridge (with lower string poles further from the bridge) on a single scale guitar, so the same as the Stratocaster has been for a billion years. It's the ratio of the scale length for a given string that the poles are away from the bridge that is important to the characteristic. Which is why even when both are slanted they should definitely not be parallel/at the same angle (which a few people got triggered about in this thread...) Having said that, the Stratocaster has always had the wrong direction on that slant IMO, but that's another matter.
> 
> And yeah first thing to do with guitars with Philips head intonation adjustment screws is replace them with hex, Torx or TorqSet. But consumers would complain about needing a £2 tool when buying a £2,000 guitar so here we are with stripped heads.
> 
> "Just buy a Padalka lol" is a bit silly, the guy takes what, 20 orders a year? Claas seems like the kind of brand you'd have to play the actual guitar you're buying before going ahead, at a show or something. But that's the case with any small builder that doesn't have a AAA+ rep like Padalka. I mean let's be honest, Javier got that for free in return for making an Instragram post of it, so he doesn't give a fuck.



I’m pretty sure you’ve given this like 10 times more thought then claas


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## ixlramp (Apr 7, 2019)

bostjan said:


> Regarding Claas, I have mixed feelings. I admire the innovation in the designs, but I question the need for so many bolts to hold the neck in place.


That makes good mechanical sense to me, it spreads the joining force more evenly over the area and allows more total clamping force without individual bolts being particularly tight. I expect the join is a little more like a through-neck because of this.

Conventional neck joints with a very few bolts spread over a small area have always seemed mechanically dubious to me (even though they work reasonably well), and are partly that way as a result of cost cutting for mass produced instruments. It seems to me that many luthiers then copy this cost-cutting design for their high-quality guitars, when they don't have to cut costs that way.

I think bolt-on guitars will be better if the joining area is larger, extends further along the neck, and has more bolts.


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## Thaeon (Apr 8, 2019)

ixlramp said:


> That makes good mechanical sense to me, it spreads the joining force more evenly over the area and allows more total clamping force without individual bolts being particularly tight. I expect the join is a little more like a through-neck because of this.
> 
> Conventional neck joints with a very few bolts spread over a small area have always seemed mechanically dubious to me (even though they work reasonably well), and are partly that way as a result of cost cutting for mass produced instruments. It seems to me that many luthiers then copy this cost-cutting design for their high-quality guitars, when they don't have to cut costs that way.
> 
> I think bolt-on guitars will be better if the joining area is larger, extends further along the neck, and has more bolts.



This guy could really benefit from CAD and a CNC machine I think. It would fix most of the functional issues mentioned aside from the bridge, finishing, and fretwork.

This thread makes me really happy I bought an Oni.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 8, 2019)

Thaeon said:


> This guy could really benefit from CAD and a CNC machine I think. It would fix most of the functional issues mentioned aside from the bridge, finishing, and fretwork.
> 
> This thread makes me really happy I bought an Oni.



I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about CNC. It takes a good amount of work to get them to cut accurately and consistently, and the machines themselves need to be of a certain caliber with regular maintenance performed properly to get the benefits. 

There have been at least two or three builders on here that had issues with quality thanks to CNC that lead to their insolvency.


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