# How many notes are in an octave?



## Winspear (Jul 16, 2010)

I forgot to post this when I came home from my girlfriends a few weeks back. I can't remember what it was - a quiz show, a crossword, something. 
Anyway, the question was "How many notes are there in an octave". I said 12. My girlfriend said 8. The answer was 8. This was a wtf moment for me  
She is a pianist, by no means very theory knowledgable, but I trust her word. And that of the TV, I suppose. My girlfriend said "Imagine C-C on a piano". I said sure, 12 notes. She said "The black notes don't count".

I just wanted to know - is that really the best answer to that question? Surely a more suitable question would be something like "How many notes in a diatonic scale?". And then, surely the answer would more suitably be 7?


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 16, 2010)

how many sides does an OCTOgon have?

furthermore, doesn't a typical scale have 7 notes? meaning that the 8th one would be the one you started on an OCTAVE higher?


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## Winspear (Jul 16, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> how many sides does an OCTOgon have?



When you put it like that...It seems like the answer is most obviously 8. But I've always thought the general statement was "An octave is all 12 notes" 



Konfyouzd said:


> furthermore, doesn't a typical scale have 7 notes? meaning that the 8th one would be the one you started on an OCTAVE higher?



That's what I thought, hense the last sentence of my post


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 16, 2010)

there are 12 possible notes, yes... but i dunno if it's scale based or based on the number of possible notes... doesn't make sense to base it on the total number of notes if it's named with prefixes that denote the #8, though...

EDIT: I did some reading on wikipedia and it doesn't even seem to mention the number of notes... Octaves, by their definition, seem entirely frequency based. Either double or half the frequency = the same note one "octave" above or below respectively. It's also noteworthy that there are more tones than the ones recognized in western music and the "octave" has to exist in music that utilizes those "other" tones as well.


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## Moro (Jul 16, 2010)

In eastern music, an octave has 24 notes, not 12. It's divided in 1/4 of a tone steps. So, there are multiple answers to that question. Also, it depends if we're talking chromatically, or using the major scale, or any other western scale (except maybe for the diminished half-whole or the bizantine, or maybe the bebop scale).

So the question is musical, but to have an answer that is not up for debate, the answer has to be mathematical.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 16, 2010)

Moro said:


> So the question is musical, but to have an answer that is not up for debate, the answer has to be mathematical.


 
Oh... you mean like... basing it on frequency...?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 16, 2010)

Technically, an octave is just double the frequency of whatever pitch you're using as a reference. You can divide it up in infinitely many ways. Diatonic scales divide the octave by eight - seven notes, plus the tonic an octave higher. This is where we get the term, 'octave'; oct - 8. A chromatic scale is a division of the octave into twelve notes, plus the octave note. Also perfectly acceptable. A whole tone scale divides the octave by six, a pentatonic scale divides the octave by five, an octatonic scale divides it by eight, a nonatonic scale divides it by nine. Indian music divides the octave by twenty-two, and has ragas that go anywhere from five to a lot more than five notes. The Arabic division of twenty-four parts has been mentioned. I'd personally respond with some smartass thing like "Equal or just temperament?" and watch the quiz show host draw a blank before buzzing me wrong.

A question like, "How many notes are in a _major scale_?," I'd instantly say, "Seven." But "in an octave" is a very open-ended question.


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## Winspear (Jul 16, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> I'd personally respond with some smartass thing like "Equal or just temperament?" and watch the quiz show host draw a blank before buzzing me wrong.
> 
> A question like, "How many notes are in a _major scale_?," I'd instantly say, "Seven." But "in an octave" is a very open-ended question.



Ah, as I thought then. Not an appropriate question for a quiz. Aside from the fact most people would guess the 'correct' answer from the 'oct' 
Thanks guys!


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## ElRay (Jul 16, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Technically, an octave is just double the frequency of whatever pitch you're using as a reference. You can divide it up in infinitely many ways.


Too true, the question was horrible. What they asked was akin to "How many floors are there between 100 and 200 feet?"

What they thought they were asking: "Including the first and last notes, how many notes are included going from any note to the same note one octave higher, in a standard European major or minor scale."


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 16, 2010)

Yep. And even in minor, you basically have nine available tones, depending on whether you're ascending or descending, and what chords you're using.


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## troyguitar (Jul 16, 2010)

I don't think I would have ever said 8. Sure it's possible, but not using any system I've ever heard of anyone actually using.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2010)

It's very simple.

Tones (Whole notes i.e. A B C etc) = 8.

Semitones (Chromatic notes including sharps) = 12.

So, depending on your definition of 'notes', 12 is technically more accurate, as that is the number of options available to you.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 16, 2010)

troyguitar said:


> I don't think I would have ever said 8. Sure it's possible, but not using any system I've ever heard of anyone actually using.



They're counting the major scale, plus the tonic octave, since a major scale going up to the seventh is a semitone short of an octave.


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## Moro (Jul 16, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> It's very simple.
> 
> Tones (Whole notes i.e. A B C etc) = 8.
> 
> ...



Mmmm, no that's incorrect. The Whole-tone scale has only 6 steps. Like so:

A B C# D# F G

The major scale has 2 half-steps between the third and fourth degree and the seventh and eight degree, that's were the other 2 notes come from.

Also, if you play a fretless instruments, the number of notes is infinite.

The answer to that quiz can only be derived from the "oct" at the end of the word, as it implies the number. Otherwise it depends what scale or mode we're talking about, it could have infinite answers. It's a tricky question if you're a musician, because the quiz was probably not designer by someone with a lot of music knowledge, and for western culture only.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 16, 2010)

Moro said:


> Mmmm, no that's incorrect. The Whole-tone scale has only 6 steps. Like so:
> 
> A B C# D# F G
> 
> ...



I didn't say whole-tone, I said whole notes and I even gave examples of what I meant by that.

I am fully aware of what the whole-tone scale is, but that is not what I said.


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## Johnboy_Ice (Jul 16, 2010)

An Octave isn't comprised of notes... it refers to an INTERVAL BETWEEN NOTES, and like has already been said it refers to a double in frequency.

How many different "notes" can be found in a certain octave varies with culture. This may be wrong, but I remember my high school music teacher saying that the reason there are 12 half steps within an octave is because western culture splits it up into 12 equally spaced frequencies. Other cultures divide the octave into (lets say hypothetically) 9 equally spaced frequency.... the result would be notes that sound really out of tune to our ears.


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## dpm (Jul 16, 2010)

Like already said, the octave is the range from one given frequency to 2x that original frequency (or half the original frequency for that matter). With the question "How many notes..", unless the question specifically refers to diatonic scales any number is a valid answer (even then I'd say 7 is as valid an answer as 8, as the 8th note is the start of the _next_ octave), it depends on how you want divide the octave, and that division is technically more correct when based on proportion instead of the equal divisions used in modern western music (ie. 12 tone equal temperament or 12TET). The idea behind 12TET is that it allows musicians to change key during performance - you're roughly equally out of tune in any given key rather than being perfectly in tune in one key but horrendously out of tune in others thus allowing for harmonic exploration with instruments that are physically relatively simple to operate. Globally and historically there are a huge number of methods to divide the octave in a musical context.


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## DaddleCecapitation (Jul 17, 2010)

I don't think that question makes any sense. An octave is not a group of notes, it's an interval. I think maybe the questionnaire had no prior musical knowledge and simply associated the word 'octave' with the number 8.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 17, 2010)

I think OP should find out what that quiz show was and send this thread to said quiz show.


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## Winspear (Jul 17, 2010)

Really was not expecting this much of a debate 



SchecterWhore said:


> I think OP should find out what that quiz show was and send this thread to said quiz show.



That would be interesting I'll have to see if my girlfriend remembers what this was on when she gets back from her holiday, as I have absolutely no idea


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## Varcolac (Jul 17, 2010)

I play a fretless bass. The correct answer is &#8734;.


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## troyguitar (Jul 17, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> They're counting the major scale, plus the tonic octave, since a major scale going up to the seventh is a semitone short of an octave.



I know that's what they're counting, but is doesn't make any sense to count it that way in any universe. That 8th note is in the next octave and should not count. C2 and C3 are not in the same octave, hence the 2 and the 3. Unless you are talking about octatonic scales, of course.


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## liquidcow (Jul 18, 2010)

Quiz shows are full of questions that are clearly stupid or wrong if you actually have a detailed knowledge of the subject. I've seen many examples of questions where the 'correct' answer was actually wrong. However, in this case, I'd probably assume the answer they were looking for was 8.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 15, 2010)

There are an infinite number of possible tones in an octave.


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## SargeantVomit (Aug 15, 2010)

8 whole notes in a standard octave as perceived as a general guideline. 12 semitones.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 15, 2010)

SargeantVomit said:


> 8 whole notes in a standard octave as perceived as a general guideline. 12 semitones.



Six whole tones. A Bb B C Db D Eb E F Gb G Ab A


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## darbdavys (Aug 19, 2010)

2 notes. Because it's an interval, and you measure only intervals between 2 notes.
But those two notes are 12semitones apart.

Also, it depends on what tuning system we use. We can also count microtones, which are used in contemporary music and can range from 11 to 96 notes


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## liquidcow (Aug 24, 2010)

Yes yes let's all show off how clever we are. It's obvious what criteria the question on a mainstream quiz show would have been using.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2010)

liquidcow said:


> Yes yes let's all show off how clever we are. It's obvious what criteria the question on a mainstream quiz show would have been using.



So it's okay for quiz shows to reinforce bullshit? Let's say the question was "Which religion is right?". In some countries, there would be a consensus held by a large portion of the population, and a subset of the general population would cite evidence arguing that it's not as simple as that. "How many diatonic notes are between an octave", or "how many chromatic notes are between an octave" have definite answers. "How many notes are in an octave" does not.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 24, 2010)

liquidcow said:


> It's obvious what criteria the question on a mainstream quiz show would have been using.



I disagree.


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## Customisbetter (Aug 24, 2010)

27







Also  at the inherit racism in this statement



girlfriend said:


> "The black notes don't count."


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## robertinventor (Aug 25, 2010)

Yes, I'd never think to say 8, even in a popular quiz and even with the word "octave" based on 8. First time I've noticed it in fact.

I'd say 7 or 12 if asked in a popular quiz (I mean before reading this thread of course).

But if more time to talk about it, I'd explain how our 12 tone scale is based on the circle of fifths. That in medieval times the first keyboards had only white notes, then gradually added black notes one at a time, until they had all 12. That the keyboads then were based on medieval ideas of harmony involving perfect fifths 3/2. That this means that in fact the semitones originally had two sizes, the diatonic and the chromatic semitone. 

Then would go on to say that the 12 note system is a "moment of symmetry" with only two interval sizes. If you add just one black note, say the F# (fifth above B) then at that point you have three interval sizes, a whole tone, and two sizes of semitone. They continued the process until they had just two interval sizes, and both similar in size as well for that matter, the two sizes of pythagorean semitone.

The major scale is a moment of symmetry with the two steps the whole tone and semitone.

The pythagorean pentatonic scale is another moment of symmetry with 5 notes, and whole note and minor third as the two step sizes - so 5 is also a correct answer if thinking in terms of moments of symmetry using perfect fifths.

Going the other way, the Arabic 17 note scale is another moment of symmetry, again using pure fifths to generate all its notes just like our twelve tone scale, and with two step sizes though one of them is far smaller than the other one.

Might then go on and talk about the other types of equal tempered scale, that you can have any number of equally spaced notes per octave, and for any number less than 100 certainly, you'll find at least one microtonal composer who has composed for that system of pitches, with some of the more popular ones 5, 7, 17, 19, 31, ... of course also 24 and 72, many others with their various advantages and disadvantages. And you haven't even begun on the vast range of pure ratio type "just intonation" scales.

So really the answer is "pick a number, any number" and then the answer is "yes, correct, that's the right answer", at least if it isn't ridiculously large. Even into the hundreds, some composers use that many notes to an octave. 

If it has thousands of notes to the octave, you might think it is a bit far fetched except maybe in some theoretical sense - or if you use it e.g. to play notes together and listen for beats.

But a fair number of musicians can discriminate scale steps of about 4 cents, some less than that - which means, easy to discriminate steps of 10 cents, or 120 notes to an octave. 200, maybe even 300 notes to an octave isn't that far fetched for a musician who has developed a keen sense for microtonal pitches, if you talk about the number of pitches that can be discriminated as distinct steps if played sequentially - and some doubtless can manage more than that.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 25, 2010)

Pretty much. If you continue stacking pure fifths and reducing them into an octave, you can have infinitely many notes between an octave. Likewise, performing a glissando on a fretless instrument give an infinite number of notes within an octave.


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## liquidcow (Aug 26, 2010)

It's a question on a quiz show aimed at a non musical audience. It's hardly worth getting all worked up about, let's not have a right go at the question writers (who probably spent two seconds writing the question) for not having an intimate knowledge of eastern scales. Fair enough what they obviously meant was 'how many notes per octave in conventional western scales', but in my experience the received opinion (simplified or incorrect as it may be) is that 'an octave' means 'eight notes'.

If it were me on that show, I would have answered eight because it's obvious to me that is the answer they were after, even though I know why it's not technically correct, then I would have walked off with a bunch of moneys. You guys apparently would have got into an argument about non-diatonic scales and left with nothing.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Aug 26, 2010)

Octave = 12 notes
Scale = 2-12 notes


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 26, 2010)

liquidcow said:


> It's a question on a quiz show aimed at a non musical audience. It's hardly worth getting all worked up about, let's not have a right go at the question writers (who probably spent two seconds writing the question) for not having an intimate knowledge of eastern scales. Fair enough what they obviously meant was 'how many notes per octave in conventional western scales', but in my experience the received opinion (simplified or incorrect as it may be) is that 'an octave' means 'eight notes'.
> 
> If it were me on that show, I would have answered eight because it's obvious to me that is the answer they were after, even though I know why it's not technically correct, then I would have walked off with a bunch of moneys. You guys apparently would have got into an argument about non-diatonic scales and left with nothing.



Regardless, the OP's question wasn't whether the show was right in saying it was eight. He's operating on the technicality that an octave is an interval, and depending on your system of tuning and how you divide the octave, "eight" is not always going to be correct.

Besides, it's like asking where World War I was fought. "The World." *DING DING DING!*


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## TreWatson (Aug 27, 2010)

put as simply as i can:

the correct answer is 8.

the only time the answer is 12 is the chromatic scale, which is literally ALL notes.

but in construction of scales, there are 7 notes, meaning in every scale there are 5 "wrong" notes, which are discarded.

once you pass that 7th note you get to the 8th ( oct) note, since the 8th note is the same as the 1st note, it is called an OCTave.

so she's right most of the time, you're right once.

...just like in a real relationship


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## Customisbetter (Aug 27, 2010)

I can't believe nobody jumped on the 27 bandwagon.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Aug 27, 2010)

TreKita said:


> put as simply as i can:
> 
> the correct answer is 8.
> 
> ...



Wrong. As scale=/=octave.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 27, 2010)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> Wrong. As scale=/=octave.



+1


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## robertinventor (Aug 27, 2010)

I noticed it at least, nice to see a photo of a microtonal guitar. Why 27 out of interest? Quite rare I would imagine, I can't remember hearing of a 27 equal guitar before, more often 19 or 31 equal.



Customisbetter said:


> I can't believe nobody jumped on the 27 bandwagon.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Aug 27, 2010)

To be correct an octave has an unlimited amount of notes, depending on how a note is described. 

If a note is what it is in western music culture, an octave would have 12 notes, and in the other hand if it is what it is 'fundamentally' (can i put the word in here? lol) it has unlimited amount of notes as there is no limits in how many parts you can cut an interval.

Clear enough?


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 27, 2010)

I don't think that it should be assumed that what they were looking for should be obvious to everyone. In fact, as musicians it's only natural that we would give the answer that we know to be correct, expecting that to be accepted. That's not unreasonable.


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