# Preventing Neck-Dive



## Science_Penguin (Jul 4, 2015)

As someone who was once injured by a guitar with severe neck-dive (cheap Epiphone SG) balance is an important issue for me. And, unfortunately for me, I love radically-shaped instruments. SG's, V's, Explorers, Stars, pretty much anything that isn't your typical Strat or Les Paul shape. 

I've played odd-shaped instruments of many different materials, some are neck-heavy and some balance quite well, and I can never figure out exactly why. An all-mahogany Epiphone V, for example will dive a bit on me, but the Gibson equivalent will be perfectly stable, and both instruments will have the upper strap pin behind the neck joint. Both are all-mahogany instruments, I believe... so what's different?

In your experience, what construction methods lend towards better or worse balance?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 4, 2015)

Choosing pieces that are lighter for the neck and heavier for the body goes a long way, but the best method is simple proper strap button placement. Production guitars need that spot to be the best on average, while one off instruments can move them to the ideal location for that specific instrument.


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Jul 4, 2015)

I have that same issue with my SG, though it doesn't bother me too bad, I just deal with it. I've seen guys put steel bb's in the excess electronics cavity space to act as sort of a balast. They are first put into a cloth sack or sock or something similar to make sure not to electrically interfere, as well as hold the bb's in place. 

I do prefer a well balanced guitar though. On my own build designs I try to put the upper strap button as far up as to be even with the level of the 12th fret, this generally makes for a nice balance.

EDIT: ^ thats also considering though I like a thinner, light weight body... so higher button placement works out better.


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## pettymusic (Jul 4, 2015)

Yeah, just goes to show that same species wood does not equal same weight and density.


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## Nag (Jul 5, 2015)

what Max said. strap pin location is 90% of it. /thread


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## Science_Penguin (Jul 5, 2015)

So, let's say I've got a bolt-on Star, alder body, maple neck. What's the ballpark location you'd want the strap pins? Also, is it a good idea to put the upper pin in one of the neck bolts like some cheap Epiphones do?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 5, 2015)

Science_Penguin said:


> So, let's say I've got a bolt-on Star, alder body, maple neck. What's the ballpark location you'd want the strap pins? Also, is it a good idea to put the upper pin in one of the neck bolts like some cheap Epiphones do?



You want the strap buttons to be equal distance from the center of mass of the guitar. 

On most guitars this sits somewhere between the 20th fret and the space between the neck and bridge pickups. 

The best way to find it is to try balancing the guitar on your hand. Hold your arm out at about waist level with your palm facing upward. Place the guitar in your palm with your other hand and move it around until you can balance it (in the playing position) without much effort. Where your hand is, is about where the center of mass is. Measure how far away the rear strap button is and mirror that placement the best you can for the other button. You may have to play around with a few spots and angles, but this will give you a general idea of where you should be looking. 

Getting perfect balance isn't always possible on some body styles and certain instruments with really heavy necks. Thick leather straps and a higher playing height will help alleviate this.


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## Andromalia (Jul 5, 2015)

Still don't understand why Gibson dosn't put the button on top of the horn of SGs.


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## Science_Penguin (Jul 5, 2015)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You want the strap buttons to be equal distance from the center of mass of the guitar.
> 
> On most guitars this sits somewhere between the 20th fret and the space between the neck and bridge pickups.
> 
> ...



Alright, I'll keep that in mind. My next project may be a warmoth build and I was really wanting to try the star shape.

Thanks for the help!



Andromalia said:


> Still don't understand why Gibson dosn't put the button on top of the horn of SGs.



I guess they figure it'll take away from the look or something... Or maybe THEY don't, but they know their fanboys would.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 5, 2015)

Andromalia said:


> Still don't understand why Gibson dosn't put the button on top of the horn of SGs.



The Iommi models have the button there.


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Jul 5, 2015)

May be of some interest to this thread, I thought Hipshot had a light weight tuner that I read about a while back but couldn't remember so I tried a quick google search for light weight tuners, this was one of the results:



STEALTH-KEYS

Could be helpful to some balance issues. I have never seen these until now and I'm a little intrigued, I think I might put some on my current build... hmmm.


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## Promit (Jul 5, 2015)

I once read a cheat if you aren't too fussed about overall weight - add tire balance weights inside the control cavity until it balances out.


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## Shask (Jul 6, 2015)

I have used weight in the control cavity, and I even had a guitar where I had steel rods inserted into the body by the input jack. I have used the big fat straps. In the end though, I almost always end up selling guitars with massive neck dive. A little bit I can deal with, but not the type SGs have.

It seems to me like almost every guitar that doesn't have an extended upper horn has some sort of neck dive, unless the body is massive to begin with (LP, Explorers).


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## Renkenstein (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm in the middle of a V build using some VERY light Swamp Ash, and this subject is weighing heavily on my mind as I'm routing and removing material. Every step I take is working towards an unbalanced axe. 

I've designed it to be balanced, but there is just no way to tell until it's all together and time to play with strap button locations.

I really fkn hope it balances. Nothing's worse than a guitar with neck-dive.


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## Science_Penguin (Jul 6, 2015)

The only bolt-on radical I have in my collection is my Jackson JS32T Warrior. For a while I had a weight from an airsoft gun duct-taped to the rear wing to balance it out, but I recently took it off and found that the neck dive wasn't all that bad- it's there, but NOWHERE near the level of an SG or a Rhoads.

If we're talking about strap-button placement being the major contributor, it's possible that, becos it's fixed to the underside of that little upper horn, not to the back of the neck joint, it doesn't move as freely. I recall once trying to use the elongated bolt from my SG to put a strap pin back there, but it was so long ago, I'm not sure what effect it had...


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## ixlramp (Jul 9, 2015)

> You want the strap buttons to be equal distance from the center of mass of the guitar.

^ Exactly that.
I balanced my explorer-type guitar by having one button on the back of the tip of the lower horn, the other button halfway along the top of the body, and on the front of the body, just like a Warr Guitar. Not ideal though as the strap gets in the way when playing the high frets. However having the buttons almost level with, and equal horizontal distance either side of, the centre of mass, means it is stable at all playing angles.
I also balanced my flying-V bass using this method.


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## Alex79 (Jul 9, 2015)

Neck dive is essentially a construction flaw.

You can fight it by..
- using a broad/rough guitar strap, which will give it more grip on your shoulder (this worked for me and my SG, it would stay horizontal)
- light machine heads can make a difference (I've heard)
- it might be a small difference, but a brass (e.g. tailpieces and other hardware) is obviously heavier than an aluminium 
- you could always try putting weight in the electronics compartment
- moving the strap position works on some guitars


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## ixlramp (Jul 10, 2015)

Mainstream guitar design is in a bad way, the priority is a body in one of 6 or so classic shapes (that fit your average guitar case).
On the right leg these are too far to the right, on the left leg too far to the left.
On a strap these are unbalanced, even a super strat that is fairly balanced when horizontal rapidly becomes unstable as the playing angle increases, due to the strap button geometry.
There is also much inverse snobbery amongst players (not in this forum), that ergonomics is something wimpy and we should be tough guys and girls and put up with it, and the health problems caused.
In 20 years i haven't found and tried a guitar that was ergonomic when sitting down, and only one bass that was ergonomic on a strap, the 1993 Bassline Universal Universal that had a strap button halfway along the neck on the back of the reinforcing section:


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## Science_Penguin (Jul 10, 2015)

ixlramp said:


> Mainstream guitar design is in a bad way, the priority is a body in one of 6 or so classic shapes (that fit your average guitar case).
> On the right leg these are too far to the right, on the left leg too far to the left.
> On a strap these are unbalanced, even a super strat that is fairly balanced when horizontal rapidly becomes unstable as the playing angle increases, due to the strap button geometry.
> There is also much inverse snobbery amongst players (not in this forum), that ergonomics is something wimpy and we should be tough guys and girls and put up with it, and the health problems caused.
> In 20 years i haven't found and tried a guitar that was ergonomic when sitting down, and only one bass that was ergonomic on a strap, the 1993 Bassline Universal Universal that had a strap button halfway along the neck on the back of the reinforcing section:



I feel like I'm guilty of hating on ergonomics to a certain point. But more in the "I still want my guitar to look nice" sense. That's reason I can't get behind the typical shoebox-looking Steinberger, as good an idea as it is. Now, get me one of the more stratty M series Steinbergers, and we might have something. 

I guess, in the end, I don't need an instrument that's perfectly designed to not cause even the slightest bit of discomfort, I just need one that's comfortable enough to not injure me and still look good.


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