# Marshall or Engl??



## drgordonfreeman (May 29, 2010)

The first ten seconds of this song is the "style", if you want to call it that, of the distortion sound I am after. 



Let's assume a few things:
I am playing a standard 6 string guitar with passive humbucking pickups.
I am playing in standard tuning.
I am using a cabinet with Celestion G12k-100 speakers.

Which amp, straight out of the box with all of the knobs zeroed so that amp is totally neutral, will sound most like the first 10 seconds of that clip: a Marshall JVM 410H or an Engl Invader 100?

Obviously, everyone's comments here will greatly help in my decision of which amp head to buy. Needless to say, I greatly appreciate everyone's opinions, thought, and comments!

Thank you!!


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## Trypios (May 29, 2010)

I'd go after the ENGL cause I owned both brands and ENGL hasn't disappointed me.

Now, I don't think you're going to find an amp that works great out of the box for what you want. A bit of EQing is always necessary.

I bet the ENGL is more present like Mustain's riffs

ENGL test

Marshall test


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## drgordonfreeman (May 29, 2010)

Trypios said:


> I'd go after the ENGL cause I owned both brands and ENGL hasn't disappointed me.
> 
> Now, I don't think you're going to find an amp that works great out of the box for what you want. A bit of EQing is always necessary.
> 
> ...



You, sir, are a gentleman _and_ a scholar. Thank you so much for those links. I figured out quickly that the Marshall 410H is not what I am after.

That Powerball just kicks ass, man. Are there any links where a sound test is performed on an Invader?


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## drgordonfreeman (May 29, 2010)

Allow me to revise this post, then. Which of the three would is the better of the three, and specifically, which of the three is more geared towards the sound clip I posted?

1.) Engl Invader 100
2.) Engl Powerball v2
3.) Engl Savage 120


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## Variant (May 29, 2010)

The old school Megadeth (and thrash sound altogether) lends itself more to Marshall. That was the staple back in the day. That said, Engl's line of amps cover a wide range of sounds. I'm not too into the sordid details. Engl experts cue in here...


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## ittoa666 (May 29, 2010)

As far as I know, Dave's been using the newest jvm for a while. He's always used marshall.


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## Larrikin666 (May 29, 2010)

drgordonfreeman said:


> Allow me to revise this post, then. Which of the three would is the better of the three, and specifically, which of the three is more geared towards the sound clip I posted?
> 
> 1.) Engl Invader 100
> 2.) Engl Powerball v2
> 3.) Engl Savage 120



Savage 120. It has been described as the most "british" sounding ENGL.


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## Cheesebuiscut (May 29, 2010)

ittoa666 said:


> As far as I know, Dave's been using the newest jvm for a while. He's always used marshall.



I don't listen to them but every video I see on here hes using some kind of modeling thing or anything but marshal. The only marshal stuff I've seen him use was a poweramp I think.


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## shogunate (May 29, 2010)

The Invader seems like it would be too smooth out of the box for you, the savage has bite and teeth for days. Set it to rough and a 6-6-6 setting and you'd be damned close to that opening tone


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## budda (May 29, 2010)

Neither. Want hot-rodded marshall tone? Get a Splawn.

You're on a forum full of ENGL lovers (many of whom have never tried one) and guys who think Marshall is only good for Hendrix and Clapton covers (oh how wrong they are) - it's going to be a heavily biased response.


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## Soubi7string (May 29, 2010)

ENGL ALL THE WAY}
Engl is god of amps, you can not go wrong with them


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## budda (May 29, 2010)

Unless of course, you prefer something else 

I bet this forum has generated at least 5% of ENGL's north american sales for the last year.


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## Shaman (May 29, 2010)

shogunate said:


> The Invader seems like it would be too smooth out of the box for you, the savage has bite and teeth for days. Set it to rough and a 6-6-6 setting and you'd be damned close to that opening tone



I agree, the Invader really is a very smooth amp by nature, so it's pretty hard to make it sound like the the guitars on the clip.

I owned an Invader for a couple of years, and to be honest, I was actually very dissapointed with it. Yeah, it sounded cool when playing single note stuff on the low strings, but palm mutes were just too smooth and it had this squishy overtone to it when palm muting. 

I have to agree with Budda, this forum is filled with ENGL fanboys who haven't necessarily even played with one, so you might not get the most objective responses when asking people about ENGL amps.

Man, I am so going to have it now


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## budda (May 29, 2010)

If anything I'm going to catch it - I even went so far as to recommend a different company! AND it's not Fractal!


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## DVRP (May 29, 2010)

Id say if you want a Marshall ish tone but want an ENGL, go for the Savage. My friend has one and its definitely a closer sound to a Marshall


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## wlfers (May 29, 2010)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> I don't listen to them but every video I see on here hes using some kind of modeling thing or anything but marshal. The only marshal stuff I've seen him use was a poweramp I think.



I don't listen to them either but I noticed a rig video of a line six rack head and the rocktron prophesy. 

Maybe its just his live rig vs what he records with? I know nothing about megadeth besides the fact that I don't care one bit for them haha.


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## Nightcrawler (May 29, 2010)

I've owned DSL2000 and a Powerball and they were nothing alike.


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## leonardo7 (May 29, 2010)

budda said:


> I bet this forum has generated at least 5% of ENGL's north american sales for the last year.


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## Demeyes (May 29, 2010)

I think you could get a better Megadeth sound through a hot rodded/boosted Marshall over an Engl. That's going off my experience anyway, having played through my brothers jcm800 and currently gigging through an Engl. A lot of people here worship the ENGL stuff and will recommend it for anything without having ever played through one. I'm not saying you won't be able to get a similar sound through an ENGL but a Marshall would be better suited IMO.
Also I'm pretty sure Mustaine has played through a variety of amps. Marshall and Line 6 definitely and he used other brand stuff like Digitech too.


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## metulkult (May 29, 2010)

DVRP said:


> Id say if you want a Marshall ish tone but want an ENGL, go for the Savage. My friend has one and its definitely a closer sound to a Marshall


 
That's me 

I've owned a Marshall DSL, and a TSL JCM2000, along with the Savage I own now. I am looking to get rid of my Savage, as I've slowly found out that I'm not a huge fan of the british sound, but hollllllllly hell. The Savage blows those 2 amps completely out of the water in every single possible way you could imagine.

Although with that price range, I'd recommend a used Soldano SLO 100, Splawn Nitro, or a modded JCM800. Although I would highly recommend an ENGL Savage 120.


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## troyguitar (May 29, 2010)

The JVM would totally get you there. I don't understand the hate those amps get, they sound great to me. The JCM2000 DSL 50 head also would probably nail that sound a lot cheaper (I think there's one in the classifieds here for like $500!).


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## sevenstringj (May 29, 2010)

I don't have the liner notes on me, but didn't they use Crates on that album?


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## drgordonfreeman (May 29, 2010)

Wow, thanks for the great responses everyone.

The irony of this thread, it seems, is that there are some rather objectively opinionated posts here! 

The more research I've read and sound samples I've listened to, it seems a hot-rodded Marshall is the way to go. I found a sound sample of a hot-rodded JVM 410H head, and it sounded killer. I think simply modifying a JVM 410 with some better tubes could go along way, and it is probably all I'll want to do. Don't get me wrong, though; I have not settled. I am still very open to amp head ideas, comments, and opinions. Someone can possibly point me in a direction I never knew existed!

I am not a _massive_ fan of Megadeth myself, but I do like the sound Mustaine has on that particular song. I would describe it as a very tight and "clean" distortion sound.

Now, after reading many of the threads on this forum, I was almost ready to pull the trigger on an Engl Invader 100. However, a few posters have mentioned that the Invader's sound was "too smooth" and possible "squishy". I guess I'm confused as to what that actually means. Could anyone please elaborate for me?


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## blister7321 (May 29, 2010)

engl
youd take hours honeing the marshall no matter what you got


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## Toshiro (May 29, 2010)

budda said:


> Neither. Want hot-rodded marshall tone? Get a Splawn.
> 
> You're on a forum full of ENGL lovers (many of whom have never tried one) and guys who think Marshall is only good for Hendrix and Clapton covers (oh how wrong they are) - it's going to be a heavily biased response.



+1. Splawn or a modded Marshall would be better for the old-school style thrash tones like Mustaine uses.


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## B36arin (May 29, 2010)

The JVM410 is an awesome amp. I've only tried it out once for about half an hour, but I got major GAS for it, especially when played through a Mesa cab with V30s. It sounded absolutely fantastic!


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## Andromalia (May 29, 2010)

Mustaine has swapped preamps now and then but always to my knowledge used a Marshall power amp. With, depending on the period, a JMP1, a rocktron Prophecy, a Digitech DSP 1101, and in the near future I'll be damned if Broderick doesn't convert him to the axe-fx.


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## TMM (May 29, 2010)

budda said:


> Neither. Want hot-rodded marshall tone? Get a Splawn.
> 
> You're on a forum full of ENGL lovers (many of whom have never tried one) and guys who think Marshall is only good for Hendrix and Clapton covers (oh how wrong they are) - it's going to be a heavily biased response.



+1 to both points, and "I'm not either of those" to the 2nd.

According to this, Marty was using a Crate Blue Voodoo during Cryptic Writings... doesn't say anything about Mustaine, though. Agreeing with a number of people here that I'm pretty sure Mustaine has almost always used Marshalls. I'd be willing to bet a simple JCM800 (or maybe even a JCM900) with a boost in front could nail that tone with no problem.


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## drgordonfreeman (May 29, 2010)

Well, it seems it's a close split right now. I'd say 40% Engl/55% Marshall/5% other.

I do not know anything about Splawn amps. Until someone mentioned it here, I'd actually never heard of them. They're essentially a hot-rodded Marshall, so you say? Well, purchasing one of those would make more sense than spending money on a Marshall, only to spend more money hot-rodding it.

I'm still curious as to what people meant when they said the Invader was too "smooth". I know something is lost in translation there, because smooth sounds like a quality I'd look for in an amp!


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## Andromalia (May 29, 2010)

Get a mesa Mark V then.


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## AustinW90 (May 29, 2010)

I have a Marshal JCM 2000. It sounds great, but is very unreliable. There seems to be always something wrong with it. Before I got my Mark IV, I was having to take my JCM 2000 to be repaired about every two-three months. 

My Mark IV on the other hand once got knocked off of my cab and there were no problems at all and it still operates at 100% as it approaches nearly twenty years of age.

I'd go with an ENGL over a Marshall any day (except a JCM 800), unless you want to be super cool and go with a MB Mark IV.

ALL HAIL THE MARK IV.


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## Spaced Out Ace (May 30, 2010)

Mustaine claimed to use mostly JCM800s in the recent GW.


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## Nights_Blood (May 30, 2010)

AustinW90 said:


> I have a Marshal JCM 2000. It sounds great, but is very unreliable. There seems to be always something wrong with it. Before I got my Mark IV, I was having to take my JCM 2000 to be repaired about every two-three months.
> 
> My Mark IV on the other hand once got knocked off of my cab and there were no problems at all and it still operates at 100% as it approaches nearly twenty years of age.
> 
> I'd go with an ENGL over a Marshall any day (except a JCM 800), unless you want to be super cool and go with a MB Mark IV.



I think your situation with the Marshall is an exception, rather than typical. A friend of mine has a TSL that he has gigged with regularly for years, and it has never given him a problem. I know a couple other people with DSLs/TSLs (you didn't specify which you had) and it seems as reliable as any other amp.

To the OP: 

I would definitely not base my amp decision on a 10 second palm muting riff, since that is dependent on technique as much as anything. Mustaine, like many other metal players, angles his pick when palm muting so it scrapes the string, making a mundane riff twice as aggressive.

But, it seems you're looking for a British sound, so I would say get a Splawn, or a JCM 800 (either modded or use it with a boost). I love my Powerball, and would recommend it otherwise, but those will get you closer to Megadeth's recorded tones.


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## Spaced Out Ace (May 30, 2010)

Um, actually I seem to remember Mustaine making a big deal out of picking as flat as possible and not angling his pick...


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## Stealthdjentstic (May 30, 2010)

Soubi7string said:


> ENGL ALL THE WAY}
> Engl is god of amps, you can not go wrong with them



People that don't want a super compressed sound.


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## Shaman (May 30, 2010)

drgordonfreeman said:


> I'm still curious as to what people meant when they said the Invader was too "smooth". I know something is lost in translation there, because smooth sounds like a quality I'd look for in an amp!



When you listen to the guitar tone on the clip, it has what I would call a cutting tone with a good emphasis on the higher mids. It has an edge so to speak.

The Invader, it doesen't really have a tone that really cuts through the mix, it really doesen't sound that aggressive. I always had problems cutting through with a band (no, I don't scoop the mids) as did a couple of guys I know who got their Invaders through endorsement deals. My Mesa always cut through better, as did my 6505. Is the Invader a bad amp, no, but it has a sound of it's own which might not please people who want a raw, in your face aggo guitar tone. 

And even though the Invader isn't as compressed as most of the ENGL's, it still is quite compressed.

The squishy overtone was something that I noticed with lower tuning. ( C and down ) When you palm mute, you get this weird squishy overtone. I tried many guitars and different people tried the amp, but it was always the same.


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## Toshiro (May 30, 2010)

TMM said:


> +1 to both points, and "I'm not either of those" to the 2nd.
> 
> According to this, Marty was using a Crate Blue Voodoo during Cryptic Writings... doesn't say anything about Mustaine, though. Agreeing with a number of people here that I'm pretty sure Mustaine has almost always used Marshalls. I'd be willing to bet a simple JCM800 (or maybe even a JCM900) with a boost in front could nail that tone with no problem.



Did Dave let Marty record any rhythm tracks though? I sorta doubt it. I had a BV120 for a number of years(bought well before Marty started using them), and it didn't sound like a Megadeth tone, IMO.


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## cyril v (May 30, 2010)

uhhh... sounds like an Iced Earth-ish tone, which would lead to Marshall for sure. Also, I'm about 99% sure it is a Marshall they used for rhythms, thats pretty much Mustaines' staple.


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## AustinW90 (May 30, 2010)

Nights_Blood said:


> I think your situation with the Marshall is an exception, rather than typical. A friend of mine has a TSL that he has gigged with regularly for years, and it has never given him a problem. I know a couple other people with DSLs/TSLs (you didn't specify which you had) and it seems as reliable as any other amp.
> 
> To the OP:
> 
> ...



I have a DSL 100, and I would have to agree with you. I know a lfew other people that have DSL's who treat them like shit, don't even know what the standby switch does , never have them retubed, and NEVER have problems with their heads.

As far as Marshall's go I agree that the JCM 800 is the best route.


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## budda (May 30, 2010)

JCM900's sound good too  - and aren't terribly expensive.

But really, grab a Splawn Nitro or Quickrod, and have a blast.


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## drgordonfreeman (May 30, 2010)

I know the a lot of artists use the JCM 800, but I've never had the chance to play on one. I know it has a great tone, but isn't it a fairly low gain amp head that requires some real coaxing to get that heavily distorted sound out of?


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## budda (May 30, 2010)

drgordonfreeman said:


> I know the a lot of artists use the JCM 800, but I've never had the chance to play on one. I know it has a great tone, but isn't it a fairly low gain amp head that requires some real coaxing to get that heavily distorted sound out of?



1. JCM800's must be cranked to sound godly, and they do.
2. Boost 'em - people are boosting: VHT's, Mesa Boogie, Framus, Marshall, probably some folks boosting ENGL, Peavey, Bogner...

edit: and you need less gain than you think 

www.myspace.com/terrorhorse - JCM800 + dual rec. I've seen them live a few times - Schecter 7/8 strings, Boost, JCM800, tone galore.


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## troyguitar (May 30, 2010)

Most old school metal like that is an SD-1 in front of a cranked JCM800. You could also probably use a 900 or a DSL without anything in front.


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## CynicEidolon (May 30, 2010)

The JVM is an incredible amp. After retubing, hot biasing, and boosting the amp... I'll never get rid of this thing... Ever. Might get a second and use them stereo.


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## drgordonfreeman (May 31, 2010)

CynicEidolon said:


> The JVM is an incredible amp. After retubing, hot biasing, and boosting the amp... I'll never get rid of this thing... Ever. Might get a second and use them stereo.




A JVM 410? I'm really interested to hear how it sounds with the modifications! Would you happen to have any sound clips of just the guitar through the amp?


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## CynicEidolon (May 31, 2010)

drgordonfreeman said:


> A JVM 410? I'm really interested to hear how it sounds with the modifications! Would you happen to have any sound clips of just the guitar through the amp?



I have some vids up on YouTube... There is a live one of me jamming with just a drummer. And then, a few Tool vids I've done but, the left is a different amp and the right is the JVM or vice versa... I don't remember. haha. And mine is the 210H... The 410 wasn't as beefy IMO. 

(Same SN on YouTube.)


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## Larrikin666 (May 31, 2010)

All this talk about hotrodded Marshalls is kicking my Splawn GAS back up.


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## blackrobedone (Jun 1, 2010)

Cryptic writings and newer Megadeth doesn't have what I'd call an old-school thrash sound. Lots of old school thrash was played on Marshall because that's all there was and it was cool, but they modded the shit out of them in the day. Also, overdrive was key. Anthrax, Metallica, and anyone else with good tone was modding and overdriving it - Megadeth's tone sucked balls so they might not have been (check out Killing is My Business and So Far . . . - and dare I blaspheme that thinnest of thin guitar tones on Rust in Peace? - for tone reminiscent of the taste of hobo's dick cheese on dingleberry crackers).

Right out of the box, today you could get close to that with an ENGL, a Splawn, a Krankenstein, a 6505, an EVH, lots of stuff, but definitely not a Marshall or Mesa that I've ever heard. (I have never seen a Marshall that sounded good for metal with just a guitar and a cable - I'm not talking AC/DC or 1985 stuff either).

Check out the Blackmore. I own one. It's a little scooped sounding but very clear and saturated. You'll be spitting all over yourself with a mouth-guitar mania of DJENT! while you're at work, dreaming of getting back to the riffage.

All that said, I've got to give props to Mustaine who is one hell of a tight rhythm player and it's not just about his amp.


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## blackrobedone (Jun 1, 2010)

I just read some of the later posts and I urge you not to get an amp that was made or designed in 1992 or before (i.e., JCM anything!) if you want super tight heavy saturated gain without tweaking for years on end. You can't get that tone straight into one of those, and only a few will tell you that that an old Marshall is actually better than an ENGL, a Fryette, or something that was designed for that tone and not for "pristine and sparkling chime all the way to mild breakup, with a veritable smorgasbord of alternate vistas of tone all under your fingertips, for wherever your imagination takes your sonic journeys".


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## blackrobedone (Jun 1, 2010)

Soldano Avenger - I forgot that one. Plug straight in - no flab.


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## budda (Jun 1, 2010)

Why not get a JCM800, if a boosted cranked JCM800 is the sound of bay area thrash? 

Also, mesa's can do it. My roadster is right behind me, pretty sure I got it covered. Metallica was recording with mesa boogie Mark series and rackmount amps I believe..


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## blackrobedone (Jun 2, 2010)

I heard that most of the new megadeth was recorded/re-amped with ENGL (from the Andy Sneap forum).

Megadeth's live tone on the Endgame tour was not that hot - not like their CD tone at all. I saw JVMs on stage then.

A JCM 800 or 900 will get you by but it's not what you're looking for. Do you want an amp that you can plug straight in with the eq flat and get a good sound, or do you want something you'll have to enhance with a hot pickup, a sonic maximizer, overdrive, eq pedal, and a noise gate, run the gain on 10, set the treble and presence at 0?

Here's a little personal anecdote that may help - I have a Fryette CL, Triple Rec, Krankenstein, 6505, and a Engl Blackmore currently. I had to audition as second guitarist for Monstrosity, a band that has a tight and brutal rhythm sound first and foremost. I took the Engl. I got the gig.


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## blackrobedone (Jun 2, 2010)




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## JJ Rodriguez (Jun 2, 2010)

You're in Monstrosity now?


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## sevenstringj (Jun 2, 2010)

blackrobedone said:


> "pristine and sparkling chime all the way to mild breakup, with a veritable smorgasbord of alternate vistas of tone all under your fingertips, for wherever your imagination takes your sonic journeys".



 Where did you pull that from? Or is that just a made-up collage of the myriad ultra-boutique stuff that all seems designed to do the same thing?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 2, 2010)

drgordonfreeman said:


> Allow me to revise this post, then. Which of the three would is the better of the three, and specifically, which of the three is more geared towards the sound clip I posted?
> 
> 1.) Engl Invader 100
> 2.) Engl Powerball v2
> 3.) Engl Savage 120



The Savage 120 is far superior to the other two IMO.


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## fateofthorns666 (Jun 2, 2010)

u cant relli go wrong with any engl or a marshall jvm tbh. wut about the engl blackmore? any thoughts on those?


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## yacker (Jun 2, 2010)

Just go try some of these amps out. I have trouble thinking there are none of these amps to demo in Dallas. I'm an invader owner and love it, but my friend owns one of the JVM's and I think it's a phenomenal amp as well. 

Megadeth is marshall, period. There's an interview with Dave Mustaine explicitly talking about how he made chris broderick switch from engl to marshall (because marshall was the sound megadeth was founded on). Dave Mustaine is a mega control freak too, but that's beside the point.

Seriously though, virtually every amp being named is a great amp, you just have to try them out and see what suits you. A bunch of engl lovers chime in and say go engl and that sways you. Then some people who don't like engl chime in and that sways you. Just go try some amps out man, it's the only way you'll know for sure. 

I will say that if you're looking for explicitly that rhythm sound, just grab a jvm and be done with it. I've played my share of marshalls and I liked the jvms the best. However based on how you're still uncertain based on other clips being thrown out, I'd say that clip isn't the golden standard and you really need go do some amp demoing.

Looks like there's Engl dealers in Austin, Cypress, and Beaumont Texas. Looks like there are marshall dealers in dallas as well as many other cities that may be nearby, including Austin and Beaumont if you did a road trip to check out the Engls the same day.


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## Samer (Jun 2, 2010)

budda said:


> Unless of course, you prefer something else
> 
> I bet this forum has generated at least 5% of ENGL's north american sales for the last year.



It was one of the reasons i picked up the Invader and the Powerball, this damn forum is the source of all my gas.


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## budda (Jun 2, 2010)

Samer said:


> It was one of the reasons i picked up the Invader and the Powerball, this damn forum is the source of all my gas.



Forums have helped kill my GAS.

1. very few PRS NGD's here
2. I don't need a new amp whatsoever, there's just a couple I'd like to get
3. I don't GAS over guitars I wouldn't want to play, I just love to stare at the figured woods 

I think I'm in the lucky few haha


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