# 3 notes per beat/cadence?



## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

I've tried searching (both Google and my brain) and am stuck on this for some reason... the riff I'm playing/writing consists of 3 notes per beat.. it is 4/4 but that's not important. I can't, for the life of me, figure out what measurement of notes I'm playing. Basically, what measurement of notes allows 3 notes to replace 4 notes?

For example, 4 16th notes = 3 what kind of notes?


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## xtrustisyoursx (Oct 3, 2010)

eigth-note triplets


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## Uncle Remus (Oct 3, 2010)

< These


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## Kurkkuviipale (Oct 3, 2010)

Actually triplets replace 2 notes.


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## KoenDercksen (Oct 3, 2010)

You're looking for eigth note triplets.


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

I figured that was true, but I guess there's more to the issue I'm having..... what I'm confused about is how that makes sense from a technical/mathematical standpoint.


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

I'm trying to tab it and its just not coming out right in Guitar Pro..

...the beginning/first two measures of the sequence is:


------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------3-3-3---
-------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------3-3-3-5-5-5---------------
--------5-5-5-6-6-6----------------------------------
--4-4-4-------------4-4-4--------------4-4-4---------


...obviously, each new number is the first beat.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Oct 3, 2010)

First beat of a bar?

Well then you've got to use (when dealing in the 4/4 time sig) half-note triplets.


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

Alright, I figured out how to enter it into Guitar Pro properly... however, I still don't understand it from a mathematical standpoint. Now the end goal is just peace of mind. 

I tabbed it out with triplet 8ths, and an accompanying guitar playing the same phrase with 4 16th notes per measure and woah.. that didn't do anything to ease my confusion.


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## Uncle Remus (Oct 3, 2010)

With 16th notes you're splitting the beat into 4. With 8th note triplets you're dividing the beat into 3. Am I missing something?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 3, 2010)

Yeah, dude. When you're fitting three in the space of four, you go up a note value and make it a triplet.

Three sixteenths in the space of four thirty-seconds (or two sixteenths) = 16th note triplets
Three eighths in the space of four sixteenth (or two eighths) = 8th note triplets
Three quarters in the space of four eighths (or two quarters) = quarter note triplets


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

Again, the part that's confusing me is how that makes sense from a mathematical standpoint... 4 can't be divided into 3 even parts.


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## davemeistro (Oct 3, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Again, the part that's confusing me is how that makes sense from a mathematical standpoint... 4 can't be divided into 3 even parts.



Yes it can, just not in the way that you're thinking of it.

1/16 = .0625

To fill up a measure of 4 beats you need 16 16th notes.
.0625 * 16 = 1
1/16 * 16 = 1

If one beat in a measure of 4 is worth .25, and 8th note triplets are 3 notes per .25, then 1 8th note triplet is worth

.25/3 = .08333 repeating

So if 3 triplets fill up .25, then 12 triplet 8th notes must fill up 1 measure.

.08333 * 12 = 1


There really is no need to think about triplets this way. Just think of them as three evenly spaced notes per beat and call it a day.


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

...but what you just explained there shows that three triplets don't make a whole number. Its not perfectly even.


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## davemeistro (Oct 3, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> ...but what you just explained there shows that three triplets don't make a whole number. Its not perfectly even.



Three triplets make up .25 which is a whole number. 

If one triplet is .083333 repeating off into infinity, .08333*3 will equal .25.

edit: Think of it like this. If triplets are 3 notes spaced evenly across .25, it means that each triplet is exactly 1/3 of .25. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 WILL equal 1, despite the fact that if you punch them in as decimals into a calculator, it may not be perfect. So, if one triplet is 1/3 of .25, then 3 triplets MUST equal .25.


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

Infinitely close to .25, that is


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## davemeistro (Oct 3, 2010)

Take a look at my edit.

If that doesn't clear things up for you, then I'm sorry, I don't really know how else I can explain it. Hope it makes sense!


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## Adam Of Angels (Oct 3, 2010)

I understand that much of it.. the obvious part is that a triplet is made up of 3 3rds. The problem that simply doesn't make sense is the duration of said note. Its impossible to accompish a perfectly even timing, even if your ears can't hear the difference


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## davemeistro (Oct 3, 2010)

Well if you want to think of it like that, then it is also impossible to accomplish a perfectly even string of 8th notes because you will never be able make sure that every note's value is perfectly equal to .125000000000000000000000 on to infinity...


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## anthonyferguson (Oct 3, 2010)

So what's the problem? The fact remains that it's a third of a beat. The concept of infinity is impossible to fathom, and therefore can't be created by the human mind/body unless you're insanely lucky or flukey. What if you look at it relative to the thirds... If one 'triplet quaver' (sorry about the English terms) counts as '1', then three of these make up 3.
If you're trying to separate that into duplets, you come out with 1.5, which is simple to grasp. See where I'm coming from?


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## Groff (Oct 3, 2010)

davemeistro said:


> Three triplets make up .25 which is a whole number.
> 
> If one triplet is .083333 repeating off into infinity, .08333*3 will equal .25.
> 
> edit: Think of it like this. If triplets are 3 notes spaced evenly across .25, it means that each triplet is exactly 1/3 of .25. 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 WILL equal 1, despite the fact that if you punch them in as decimals into a calculator, it may not be perfect. So, if one triplet is 1/3 of .25, then 3 triplets MUST equal .25.



The thing is, when we play triplets, it doesn't have to conform to math. Any notion of infinity doesn't apply because it's such a minute measure.


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## davemeistro (Oct 3, 2010)

Groff said:


> The thing is, when we play triplets, it doesn't have to conform to math. Any notion of infinity doesn't apply because it's such a minute measure.



Yeah I know, that's what I tried to get across at first, but he wanted it from a mathematical standpoint.


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## Uncle Remus (Oct 3, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I understand that much of it.. the obvious part is that a triplet is made up of 3 3rds. The problem that simply doesn't make sense is the duration of said note. Its impossible to accompish a perfectly even timing, even if your ears can't hear the difference


 
No matter how good the timing I bet no one can play 16th notes to the 0.0001 of a decimal perfectly either so it makes very little difference doesn't it?


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## anthonyferguson (Oct 3, 2010)

Just re read my post and realised it makes no sense. Here is an ms paint explaination.


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## Uncle Remus (Oct 3, 2010)

a half note = 1.5? 

Wouldn't that be a dotted quarter?

Basically when a 3 triplets are involved you play 3 quavers in the space of time you'd normally play 2 quavers /thread (?)


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## anthonyferguson (Oct 3, 2010)

Uncle Remus said:


> a half note = 1.5?
> 
> Wouldn't that be a dotted quarter?



Not relative to the triplet. If you take that as having a value of 1, or better still, do it algebraicly and call it 'a', a quarter (sorry I cant do american note length values) would equal 1.5a.

Am I making sense here? sorry haha


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## hide (Oct 3, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I understand that much of it.. the obvious part is that a triplet is made up of 3 3rds. The problem that simply doesn't make sense is the duration of said note. Its impossible to accompish a perfectly even timing, even if your ears can't hear the difference



You're overcomplicating the whole thing: if I get what you mean right, you're confusing the _value_ with the _representation_ of the duration. It is indeed possible to get a perfect division: think of it as a change of tempo, where you put the accent every 3 notes and slow down the tempo by multiplying it by 3/4. The fact that there isn't a finite decimal representation of 1/3 only means that the representation isn't perfect. You can divide a 1kg cake in 3x333.333...g slices by taking a goniometer and cutting every 120 degrees - no approximation involved.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 4, 2010)

This is ridiculous. A triplet is three evenly spaced notes in the space of two evenly spaced notes. There's nothing more to it.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Oct 4, 2010)

^This.


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## xtrustisyoursx (Oct 4, 2010)

Seriously. It's fractions. All rhythmic music notation is fractions. I don't get like 90% of the posts in this thread.


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## bostjan (Oct 4, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> This is ridiculous. A triplet is three evenly spaced notes in the space of two evenly spaced notes. There's nothing more to it.





xtrustisyoursx said:


> Seriously. It's fractions. All rhythmic music notation is fractions. I don't get like 90% of the posts in this thread.





in 4/4
whole note = 4 counts
half note = 2 counts
quarter note = 1 count
eighth note = 2 per count
eighth note triplet = 3 per count

These are all rational numbers of counts. I'm not sure what the question is. As far as how to count them - the classic pedagogical count is "one trip-let, two trip-let, three trip-let, four trip-let," where each number, each trip and each let is an eighth note triplet.


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## Soopahmahn (Oct 4, 2010)

Since thirds can't be approximated in decimals, they don't exist. Duh.


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## xtrustisyoursx (Oct 4, 2010)

pineapple is a good word to use for triplets because there is a slight emphasis on the first syllable, but most of us say fairly evenly.


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## Maniacal (Oct 4, 2010)

mmmmmmmmmmmm rum is good


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 5, 2010)

Maniacal said:


> mmmmmmmmmmmm rum is good


Wow, I never thought of it that way.


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## Maniacal (Oct 5, 2010)

Yep. That just about wraps it up. As you can see I am a master of theory.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 8, 2010)




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## Jtizzle (Oct 9, 2010)

Music =/= math. 
Just play it. If it feels right, it is right. No need to over complicate things with thinking how it's not mathematically possible to get it right.

But going into the math thing, it can make possible sense if you look at it as if it were 12/8, which essentially it is, since you're writing the whole measure or measures as 4/4 all in triplets, 12/8 is correctly counted in threes (not triplets, since it's the regular way to count that time signature. You don't call the beats in 4/4 duplets for the same reason). My theory class, and many others use One-Lah-Lee Two-Lah-Lee, etc. 12/8 = 1.5 of a beat, which is a dotted quarter note, or a quarter note tied to an 8th note. Triplets are really only used to change the feel of one or two beats in a measure. Usually if a measure consists of only triplets, the time signature switches to to 12/8. There's exceptions to this however:
- If it's just a few measures. There's no sense to change time signatures every other measure. It will confuse the performer, which is not the goal of an arranger. An arranger's job is to write music and make it as easy to read and play/sing as possible.
- If the piece is a swing/jazz/whatever you want to call it. Swing is basically a triplet quarter note with a triplet 8th note (that's how the feel is actually written), but again, swing is a very common rhythm, so it's expected for a performer to be able to read a swing chart in 4/4 and know what notes swing (or are played as the triplet 8th and triplet quarter note). 

So yeah, don't worry about the math. Inside the beat of a triplet, the math doesn't make much sense, but in the whole music, the math is there. If it weren't, the piece would be completely all over the place, and that would mean that the whole amount of beats in the measure would be off. It's possible to be done for a reason.

If I may recommend, use Guitar Pro to tab your stuff. It has a counter in the bottom left corner which tells you out of 4000, how many beats are in your measure (4000 being a full and correctly written measure in 4/4, but it depends on your time signature. For example, 5000 is 5/4. Or 5/8 is 2500, etc.) 

tldr; read my first sentence.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Oct 9, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'm trying to tab it and its just not coming out right in Guitar Pro..
> 
> ...the beginning/first two measures of the sequence is:
> 
> ...





Jtizzle said:


> Music =/= math.
> Just play it. If it feels right, it is right. No need to over complicate things with thinking how it's not mathematically possible to get it right.
> 
> But going into the math thing, it can make possible sense if you look at it as if it were 12/8, which essentially it is, since you're writing the whole measure or measures as 4/4 all in triplets, 12/8 is correctly counted in threes (not triplets, since it's the regular way to count that time signature. You don't call the beats in 4/4 duplets for the same reason). My theory class, and many others use One-Lah-Lee Two-Lah-Lee, etc. 12/8 = 1.5 of a beat, which is a dotted quarter note, or a quarter note tied to an 8th note. Triplets are really only used to change the feel of one or two beats in a measure. Usually if a measure consists of only triplets, the time signature switches to to 12/8. There's exceptions to this however:
> ...



He's doing it in Guitar Pro...


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## WickedSymphony (Oct 9, 2010)

Why are some of the answers in this thread making it seem so much more complicated than it really is?


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