# HELP: Solo Strategies



## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 10, 2008)

I've been playing for a few years now, and have posted several times on various items in the past here.

However, as much theory and practice I put in, I can't seem to grasp advanced solos as well as I'd like to be able to.

So I come to you, collective internet, in hopes that I can assemble your knowledge of soloing and soloing strategies to create some bastardization of musical knowledge.

Thanks in advance


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 10, 2008)

ArchAngel1024 said:


> So I come to you, collective internet, in hopes that *I* can assemble your knowledge of soloing and soloing strategies to create some bastardization of musical knowledge.



Fixed.



ArchAngel1024 said:


> However, as much theory and practice I put in




It's hard for me to believe that if you know
a) you key signatures
b) chord function
c) the major scale and all of it's modes
d) the minor scales and all of their modes
e) every note on the fretboard cold

you can't already solo. My gut instinct tells me you don't really know as much theory as you think you've learned. Go back and learn it from scratch- if something looks tedious- then that's probably what you skipped before, and need to learn. Music theory isnt a 'pick-and choose' situation, you will never understand improvisation if you don't know the basics COLD.

Like yngwie says:



When you're done with all that study Paul Gilbert's Intense Rock I and II until you can play everything.

That's the short version...


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## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 10, 2008)

I can solo, just not as well as I'd like to.

I was in hopes for some ideas closer to those of advanced techniques (such as the use of 5ths in place of a linear scale).

Other tricks like that what would be helpful in creating a fluid solo.

I should have phrased myself differently.

And thanks for the correction


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 10, 2008)

as in, intervallic tricks? new arpeggio types, etc? that sort of thing?

there are some tutorials on that sort of thing in the workbench...

The Sevenstring.org Workbench


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## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 10, 2008)

yeah, exactly, I misrepresented myself as a complete idiot >>

I do understand a/b/e on your list, and am in the process of memorizing the relations between the Diatonic Modes and the Harmonic Minor Modes. (As for E, I've memorized the intervals, and where the whole notes are, I just don't quite have names to them yet).


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 10, 2008)

lol... do you use sequences? I would recommend checking out some of rusty cooley's stuff on that.... or are you looking for 'tasteful' stuff

in the next week, before I get out to mexico on vacation, I plan on doing a tutorial on ninth, and seventh arpeggios for seven-stringed guitars that are very good for phrasing as well as blazing speed, and have the unique quality of being very compatible with the 'standard' rusty cooley types of sequencing for scales in three octaves.

Otherwise, I would say just sit around for a few hours trying out new stuff on guitar....

its really hard to tell you where to go if its unclear where you are. Post up a vid or a clip or something...


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## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 10, 2008)

yeah, I'll get to it eventually, but the only improv clip I have is a half hour, acoustic one (with poor sound) where I was really more working out some ideas for a concept album I'll probably never finish.


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## Xtremevillan (Jan 10, 2008)

guitarplayerone said:


> It's hard for me to believe that if you know
> a) you key signatures
> b) chord function
> c) the major scale and all of it's modes
> ...



Harder said than done :'(

I'm only on step one. Or A.


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## SnowfaLL (Jan 10, 2008)

well.. theres a book called like The Theasaurus of Scales and Melodies (or something like that) that is basically just like 150 pages of random melodies that can be used for soloing.. Go get that book, and work on like one a day, and then connect the dots. You will need to sightread though to read them. but its pretty challenging, someone I know has it and looked like a crazy book but apparently Coltrane and Miles highly recommend it.


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## Jongpil Yun (Jan 10, 2008)

Xtremevillan said:


> Harder said than done :'(
> 
> I'm only on step one. Or A.



Shit, I know B, C, D, and E, but I'm not completely good at A. I can't sight read anything with more than 4 sharps/flats without getting confused. C and D are the easiest, because minor is a mode of major anyways. Unless he means modes of harmonic minor, which is a different story. I'm actually not that good at B though, and I blow at improvising. Like, really, really suck at it.


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 11, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Shit, I know B, C, D, and E, but I'm not completely good at A. I can't sight read anything with more than 4 sharps/flats without getting confused. C and D are the easiest, because minor is a mode of major anyways. Unless he means modes of harmonic minor, which is a different story. I'm actually not that good at B though, and I blow at improvising. Like, really, really suck at it.



practice, practice, practice

Also, what difference does the key make? You shouldnt depend on open notes anyway, and one of the great things about gutiar (vs piano), is that to transpose, all you need to do is move up or down frets. However to do this, you need to know your intervals and scales very well in the first place (in your fingers). Then you just read em off the staff. Or improv in em.


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## Jongpil Yun (Jan 11, 2008)

guitarplayerone said:


> practice, practice, practice
> 
> Also, what difference does the key make? You shouldnt depend on open notes anyway, and one of the great things about gutiar (vs piano), is that to transpose, all you need to do is move up or down frets. However to do this, you need to know your intervals and scales very well in the first place (in your fingers). Then you just read em off the staff. Or improv in em.



It has nothing to do with open notes, it has to do with the ability to read sheet music. If I'm trying to read something in C# minor for example, I get confused by all the accidentals.

I think the confusion here might be that I said I'm not good at B, good at C and D etc. where I was referring to the lettering in your little list and you thought I was referring to the keys of B, C, D, etc.


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## keithb (Jan 11, 2008)

Anyone else notice that in the video Yngwie talks about knowing ALL keys, but sticks to playing in Am and Em - not exactly the most esoteric keys on the guitar


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 11, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> It has nothing to do with open notes, it has to do with the ability to read sheet music. If I'm trying to read something in C# minor for example, I get confused by all the accidentals.
> 
> I think the confusion here might be that I said I'm not good at B, good at C and D etc. where I was referring to the lettering in your little list and you thought I was referring to the keys of B, C, D, etc.



true dude, but if its natural, its got the same accidentals as E maj, if its harmonic, its got a B#, and if its melodic it also has an A#. My point is, the way I read, I just place my fingers into the correct positioning for a key, and then play by reading intervals, rather than the notes.

This makes reading a lot easier, but you need to be on top of your intervals to do it...


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## Drew (Jan 11, 2008)

ArchAngel1024 said:


> I can solo, just not as well as I'd like to.
> 
> I was in hopes for some ideas closer to those of advanced techniques (such as the use of 5ths in place of a linear scale).
> 
> ...



Those are just that - tricks. 

Certainly, spend time practicing sequences (if you don't own Troy Stetina's "Speed Mechanics for Lead Guitar," buy it now) and breaking scales up by 3rds and 5ths and whatnot, but you can do that untily ou're blue in the face and still sound like shit, and have no idea why David Gilmour sounds so much better than you. 

A memorable solo, even a memorable shred solo, comes down to one thing - melody. Try this - take a backing track, and play it back just listening to it. Hum along and try to "hear" a kickass tasteful shred solo over the top of it. Then, go back, hit play, and try to play what you just "heard." 

Also worth a try - open a solo with a melodic theme. Then, spend the rest of the solo creating variations of and expanding upon that theme, and gradually return to it. 

Finally, try taking a solo using only a limited number of notes - say, four or five notes on a given spot in the neck - and then look for ways to make a solo interesting with JUST THOSE NOTES by making them rhythmically interesting, bending or slurring them, varying your pick attack, whatever. If you can take a solo based on a single triad in a single position on the neck and not bore a listener, you know you're getting somewhere.


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## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 11, 2008)

thanks for all the different tips, I need to work on memorizing tonality, and a few other functions of intervals, however I've begun putting in anywhere from 3-5 hours of practice/learning a day, and in one week have progressed more than a collective year.


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## stubhead (Jan 12, 2008)

There are _great_ solos by people who, by the standards of modern guitar, have very little "technique" at all. Paying attention to melodic themes and variations, and the sequencing of those themes, is critical. If you listen to the metal songs of Tony MacAlpine, the instrumentals of Chet Atkins, the Caprices for solo violin from Paganini, you'll see that they _all_ use common means of construction. 

The normal terminology for song structure applies handily to solos. You may have an "A" section, say a two-bar riff. If you repeat this, even with a little variation, that's "AA". If you go up to the relative minor or up a 4th and restate it, call that "B". Play AABA, then go to a different, "chorus" lick, "C". Any of the above-named - MacAlpine, Atkins, Paganini - are going to have tons of AABA/AABA/CCCC/AABA/AABA/CCCC sequences in their tunes. 

There are no set-in-stone rules about sequencing, the point is that you have to _pay attention to it._ My advice to you would be to cut _way_ back on practicing sweeps, alternate picking, tapping for a while and spend a good portion of that time listening, _HARD_, to your favorite solos. Get a notebook (NOT music paper) and start identifying licks, motifs, and the sequences within these solos - just pick a few to start. You can label the sections any way that works for you, though the standard AABBCCDD stuff is as good as it gets. 

There's a fairly well-accepted rule among composers (& improvisers) that music should be predictable about half the time and surprising about half the time. If it's too surprising, it sound random and scattered, too repetitious, it's boring - obviously different audiences have very different expectations. To be a great soloist, above all you need a repertoire of licks _or schemes that generate licks_ - patterns or boxes are a start, there's tons of more advanced interpolations and such too. Second, you need concentration & a good memory, so you can sequence your licks, and vary them, in an interesting way. Burning, shredding technique comes in a distant third. Of course Malmsteen and Batio can "blow Clapton off the stage" - they can blow Billy Gibbons or Mark Knopfler away too, but who can pack a stadium and who has to do guitar clinics at music stores to stay alive? 

Bear in mind, most people can't track complicated melodies, and it's getting worse and worse - television has destroyed the attention span of two entire generations. If you can't remember the beginning of a solo _30 fucking seconds ago_ how the _hell_ can you appreciate the thematic development? McLaughlin and Morse are my favorite guitarists, Steve Morse came up _before_ Stevie Ray Vaughan - but he plays _too_ well for the average pud to understand, he had to join Deep Purple just to make a decent living. I _personally_ think that "marketing your licks" sucks, but you do have to decide who you're trying to communicate with and how.


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 12, 2008)

good point, but this all depends on what your musical goals are...


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## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 13, 2008)

stubhead said:


> ...television has destroyed the attention span of two entire generations.



*cough*baby-boomer*cough*

There's some good info in there though.

The only point I really have been keeping in mind there is One half predictability, one half surprise.


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## Luan (Jan 13, 2008)

What you want to learn is improvising.
If you can't improvise, you can't make a solo.

There are hundreds of threads about this topic on this forum, even I made some of them asking for ideas.


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## stubhead (Jan 15, 2008)

Here's a perfect solo to work on counting and sequencing (I use this with my more advanced guitar students):



After a bit of crowd-pleasing, Gilbert plays the same lick _sixteen times in a row_, with slight stop/start variations. Then he plays another lick three times in a row and climbs out of it to another lick, which he also plays three times and then goes to variations. I'd say this solo is probably about 80% "set" and 20% improvised - he knows what each section is and the order he want to get to them, but the interconnections and the number of repeats might change from night to night. On Gilbert's new CD "Get Out Of My Yard" theres an accompanying DVD where he goes over all the solos note-for-note, so he certainly has them memorized, it's just the way he personally works. He mentions doing a lot of improvising to get to the solos in final form, but there's nothing wrong whatever with "writing" music. The tech-metal stuff like Dysrythmia, Behold... the Arctopus and Blotted Science is written note-for-note, there's no other way to play it.

At 1:21 of the Gilbert solo he plays another lick 8 times in a row, goes to some variations that are just a single pattern working through a modal sequence, then at 2:19 he plays another lick three times and _again comes out of the third one into variations_ - there's a real, learnable approach to construction in this solo - it's built like a brick shithouse. You have to do the work to extract the knowledge from it, but it's a lot _easier_ once you see how it's built up out of repeated units. The more great solos you learn from other guitarists the more you'll learn about construction, pacing and creating & releasing tension, but you want to try to avoid the trap of blind mimicry. There are way too many guitarists who have no voice of their own, so somewhere within learning the first few hundred solos it's worthwhile to start analyzing _what_ it is about certain musical patterns and constructions that appeals to you personally, and investigate them more deeply.


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## Drew (Jan 15, 2008)

stubhead said:


> There are no set-in-stone rules about sequencing, the point is that you have to _pay attention to it._ My advice to you would be to cut _way_ back on practicing sweeps, alternate picking, tapping for a while and spend a good portion of that time listening, _HARD_, to your favorite solos.



Quoted for emphasis, as this is the highlight of an excellent post. If you've read this thread and still come back to this:



> thanks for all the different tips, I need to work on memorizing tonality, and a few other functions of intervals, however I've begun putting in anywhere from 3-5 hours of practice/learning a day, and in one week have progressed more than a collective year.



...then you're kind of missing the point. A good solo isn't about how many hours you practiced before you took it, you know?


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## ArchAngel1024 (Jan 15, 2008)

I spend a lot of time over the coarse of a day listening to music, and trying to analyze solos, and had overlooked the comment.

I need to put some of on paper.

I attached 2 pieces I've been working on.

The longer one is a song I'm co-writing, the 2 shorter ones were trials for my solo.


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## Zand3 (Jan 18, 2008)

can you post a video of you soloing , i feel like ppl could offer advice much better if they could see where you are with this exactly


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## Demeyes (Jan 23, 2008)

I don't know know if this will apply fully to you or not, but if your not playing in a band or jamming regularly with another pitched musician than you should. Playing and feeding off other people will push you to step out of your comfort zone and get some ideas. It will also help your improvisation and composition skills more than anything. You can apply things you've learned easily and see instantly if they work or how to make them work. 
You can use backing tracks but they can be stale. They are a great help but unless you make your own you won't be able to adjust them easily, so they are more limiting than a real musician. I find once you play over a certain backing track you can get stuck with the same ideas and you stop learning off it.
A great trick to solo ideas is to record yourself and criticise when you listen back, or even get someone else to. Then have another go and try and fix what you didn't like. After a few takes you should have developed a solo that works for you.


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## Vision (Feb 8, 2008)

guitarplayerone said:


> It's hard for me to believe that if you know
> a) you key signatures
> b) chord function
> c) the major scale and all of it's modes
> ...



I actually know all that stuff, and I cant improvise a solo to save my ass! (I signed up for guitar lessons next week.... I need someone to put it all together for me).


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## Bound (Feb 9, 2008)

Vision said:


> I actually know all that stuff, and I cant improvise a solo to save my ass! (I signed up for guitar lessons next week.... I need someone to put it all together for me).




You know what helped me with this (as I'm self taught)

I'd take a scale or even just a finger position at first and I'd riff off in it, until I find something I think would work for soloing ( or something maybe not so suiting) and I'd record it and jam on it for a while. Sometimes you get some licks, sometimes you don't. Sometimes you get stuck in a rut so badly you get super pissed and make your fingers move in different ways.

I think the thing that helps me most with phrasing is playing other peoples solos and super-imposing some of their lick ideas on my practical knowledge of the guitar.

Some intermediate solos that have awesome phrasing to be studied:
LOG's Walk With Me in Hell
Mastodons Crystal Skull
Opeths Godheads Lament.

Not that I'm McSolopants, or anything. But these things help/are helping me.


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## ArchAngel1024 (Feb 10, 2008)

I've become good at improv in a few scales (blues m, pentatonic M/m, ionian, aeolian, some harmonic m) my only issues now are relating lead to melody (playing in the V works well) and writing a few more songs before June.


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## lambofhowe (Feb 14, 2008)

ArchAngel1024 said:


> I've been playing for a few years now, and have posted several times on various items in the past here.
> 
> However, as much theory and practice I put in, I can't seem to grasp advanced solos as well as I'd like to be able to.
> 
> ...



If if it's real SOLOING you're talkin about and not wanky guitar shredder licks, best advice I can give is just to try to feel a melody when you're playing over a chord progression. It's great to practice technique so you can totally rip when you feel it's appropriate but for me the best thing to do is just sit and jam out over backing tracks (could be a very simple self-made track) and just try and come up with stuff that's coherent. I wouldn't suggest using Cooley as a main influence, I would (and this is just me) listen to guys like Petrucci, Nuno Bettencourt (this guy is practically a must), Satch, EVH, Shawn Lane, Guthrie, Dime...all those guys really could feel out a melody and use it in a way that doesn't relate to just guitarists. hope this helps


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 15, 2008)

I have to say for guitar solos, I'm a big fan of the theme and variations format, where the theme would be the main vocal theme of the song (generally) and you apply various transformations to it in short (~4 bar) bursts.


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## dougsteele (Feb 18, 2008)

dissect other player's solos. start with angus young and ace frehley, then go to eddie van halen. learn it all by ear, no tabs. you'll hate it at first, but then you'll come to enjoy the hard hours you've put in.


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## Maniacal (Feb 18, 2008)

One thing that helped me was learning jazz on a regular basis. It really helps open up the neck a whole lot more and as jazz is all about phrasing and note choice soloing skill just develops along the way. 

I think more important than knowing tonnes of theory is having a good inner ear. 
Put on some backing track playing a simple chord like A minor then sing melodies and try and work them out on the guitar. Do this every day and you will think less in terms of "3 note per string scales" and more about just playing whats in your head.

If Allan Holdsworth can make a C major scale sound colorful and interesting, that just proves "Its not how many scales you know, its how you use them"


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 18, 2008)

Maniacal said:


> One thing that helped me was learning jazz on a regular basis. It really helps open up the neck a whole lot more and as jazz is all about phrasing and note choice soloing skill just develops along the way.
> 
> I think more important than knowing tonnes of theory is having a good inner ear.
> Put on some backing track playing a simple chord like A minor then sing melodies and try and work them out on the guitar. Do this every day and you will think less in terms of "3 note per string scales" and more about just playing whats in your head.
> ...



Agree 100%. The best part of studying jazz is that it gets you out of the thing a lot of shredders do where each part of the solo is just a showcase for a particular technique rather than a musical phrase, like they think 'tapping bit-fast picking bit, sweeping bit, blues lick, whammy bar bit...' and just string together a bunch of exercises they've practiced to death, rather than thinking in terms of developing motifs.


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## Maniacal (Feb 18, 2008)

Absolutely. Which is why most "shredders" have crap songs, shit production, annoying vibrato and the phrasing of a train. 

Too much focus on one thing. Usually because they want to impress other people. Which is fair enough if it makes them happy, but it wont make you a well rounded musician/artist.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 18, 2008)

Maniacal said:


> Absolutely. Which is why most "shredders" have crap songs, shit production, annoying vibrato and the phrasing of a train.
> 
> Too much focus on one thing. Usually because they want to impress other people. Which is fair enough if it makes them happy, but it wont make you a well rounded musician/artist.



I see this with soooooooooo many musicians who could actually be really good if they worked on the right stuff, but instead they just have a few 'terror death licks' that they can reel off (but frequently can't do with a metronome, or over a set of changes) to impress people who don't play guitar, and after they've played those they're totally lost.


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## stubhead (Feb 19, 2008)

> Too much focus on one thing.



Time and again you'll hear good teachers recommend that you get out of your comfort zone and learn to play something you're not used to - 
*by definition, playing can only be boring if you're playing what you already know....* 

Paul Gilbert makes a point to include a classical piano piece transcribed for guitar on every album. Steve Vai throws in stuff from a dizzying array of places, possibly a result of his tenure with Frank Zappa. Learn the "Pink Panther" theme, learn a polka, learn "The Blue Danube Waltz", learn "chicken pickin"" (like Zakk Wylde & John 5). You don't have to love it (or plan a career in a polka band ), but it _will_ show up in your playing somewhere and broaden and deepen it. 

You'll have to _listen_ to other stuff too to learn it - I can save you the time of even writing to Berklee School of Music, if you want to get in there you need to buy "Sonatas and Partitas" by J.S. Bach, the 2-CD set and the sheet music and get started now. It built up Petrucci & Morse, it can do you too.

I had posted a link to an amazing site with thousands of streaming concerts:
SugarMegs Streaming Server
Somebody posted that "there wasn't enough metal" - to be able to bypass that much music is no way to get better. There's dozens of Mahavishnu Orchestra & Zappa, Zeppelin & Mountain concerts - without those guys there wouldn't be metal as you know it, as Jeff Beck said recently _nobody_ has ever gotten better than McLaughlin was back then. Check out MahavishnuOrchestra1972-05-15 and 1972-11-09 if you want to find out why metal bands still play in odd meters 35 years later.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 19, 2008)

Great advice, as usual.

One of the things that's really helped me recently is discovering Loreena McKennitt's music; I've been experimenting with using the e-bow to mimic her vocal phrasing, and harp-harmonics to cop some ideas from her harp playing.


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## ArchAngel1024 (Feb 27, 2008)

I've spent the last few weeks learning blues, studying Hendrix, SRV, and a few others, It's really improved my playing (especially with my fender). I'm going to follow Stub's advice and keep learning from other Genres and using techniques from each. I've also been reading Steve Morse's Articles in Guitar World, his articles are full of useful stuff.


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## Vision (Mar 24, 2008)

Vision said:


> I actually know all that stuff, and I cant improvise a solo to save my ass! (I signed up for guitar lessons next week.... I need someone to put it all together for me).



I just wanted to give a quick update:

I signed up for lessons and through lack of communications, they dropped me. So I called another music store to see about lessons and they were like "Yeah, call John... he will hook you up!" I call John and tell him my situation and we hooked up and he gave me a kick ass two-hour lesson. 

Turns out, he was trained by -and good friends with- Paul "F-n" Gilbert!  We touched on theory, C-A-G-E-D, modes, strength building, the "tension-resolution" of guitar playing, the importance of hammer-on/pull-offs, slides, vibrato, bends, and how to tell a story with your guitar! He even pointed out that my picking style (economy... I had no idea!) will limit my playing ability and how to effectively shift to true alternative picking. He is a huge Rusty Cooley fan and even started playing some of Rusty's sweep picking stuff! 


I think I am in good hands...


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## ArchAngel1024 (Mar 25, 2008)

Vision said:


> I just wanted to give a quick update:
> 
> I signed up for lessons and through lack of communications, they dropped me. So I called another music store to see about lessons and they were like "Yeah, call John... he will hook you up!" I call John and tell him my situation and we hooked up and he gave me a kick ass two-hour lesson.
> 
> ...



amazing, good luck man, and if you get in touch with Paul, let us know. 



I've started working with solos differently, Like, I just know what to play now. The more recent tracks I've been working with have a little more flexibility, so it's easier to solo over them after listening a few times. 

I've also found that I tend to count 4/4 like 3/4, 3/4, 2/4 or 5/8, 3/8. Which is weird to me. :emot:


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## Drew (Mar 25, 2008)

ArchAngel1024 said:


> I've become good at improv in a few scales (blues m, pentatonic M/m, ionian, aeolian, some harmonic m) my only issues now are relating lead to melody (playing in the V works well) and writing a few more songs before June.



I know this is a month old, give or take, but there's a dangerous hangup right there. 

Don't think of it as "improvising in the blues minor," or "improvising in the harmonic minor," or whatever. Instead, learn to think of it as "improvising over such-and-such a set of chord changes." There's no reason you have to stay in the same scale for an entire solo, or an entire passage, or even an entire phrase, and arguably half the battle of improvising is learning how to artfully add tones _outside_ the obvious scale choice too the mix and still make it work. 

so, learn your scales cold, learn to play them across the entire neck without even having to think about them, and then forget them. ditto with arpeggios, not just sweep arpeggio shapes, but the actual series of chord tones. And then when you come to a solo section, throw whatever works at it - a particular scale, a couple passing tones from another scale that also works, a couple chromatic passing notes if they fit, maybe an arpeggio based lick or two, whatever. Don't think of them as rigidly defined scales, think of them as all part of the same collection of notes that may or may not be appropriate in a context. 

I'd really be curious to hear a clip of your improv playing.


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## telecaster90 (Mar 25, 2008)

stubhead said:


> I had posted a link to an amazing site with thousands of streaming concerts:
> SugarMegs Streaming Server
> Somebody posted that "there wasn't enough metal" - to be able to bypass that much music is no way to get better. There's dozens of Mahavishnu Orchestra & Zappa, Zeppelin & Mountain concerts - without those guys there wouldn't be metal as you know it, as Jeff Beck said recently _nobody_ has ever gotten better than McLaughlin was back then. Check out MahavishnuOrchestra1972-05-15 and 1972-11-09 if you want to find out why metal bands still play in odd meters 35 years later.



This link FTW


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 25, 2008)

Drew said:


> I know this is a month old, give or take, but there's a dangerous hangup right there.
> 
> Don't think of it as "improvising in the blues minor," or "improvising in the harmonic minor," or whatever. Instead, learn to think of it as "improvising over such-and-such a set of chord changes." There's no reason you have to stay in the same scale for an entire solo, or an entire passage, or even an entire phrase, and arguably half the battle of improvising is learning how to artfully add tones _outside_ the obvious scale choice too the mix and still make it work.
> 
> ...



Absolutely awesome advice. This is exactly how most great improvisors seem to think when they're playing. It might sound confusing, but if you're like me there'll come a point where it just seems to click, and scales and modes become just one piece of the puzzle. I don't pretend to be a great soloist, but one of the major stepping stones in my own playing was when I started to think about improvising in this way.

Drew, you and I really have to jam together some time in the future.


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## Drew (Mar 25, 2008)

I'll probably let you down, dude.  

Seriously though, I don't think too much about scales anymore when I solo. I probably run the risk of sounding repetitive because of this, but... 

That was the big thing I took away from taking lessons in college, though - really, there's no reason you can't play _anything_ over *anything* as long as you can find a way to resolve it.


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## Maniacal (Mar 25, 2008)

It would be great not to think about scales and shapes when I improvise but I just cant. 

I think training as a "shredder" has not done me any favors regarding the neck. Especially 3 note per string sequences.


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## TemjinStrife (Mar 26, 2008)

I come from a classical cello background, so it's very interesting attempting to transfer the lyrical sounds I'm based in to the very percussive guitar, and vice versa. The phrasing and scalar outlook granted by that background has been both a blessing and a curse throughout my own experience with the instrument, as I do tend to focus more on pedal tones, melodic lines, and single-note rhythm bits instead of chordal riffs.

This totally hoses me for learning blues stuff like La Grange, for example... but the sound is very cool to me and despite my difficulties I hope to be able to grab onto some of the "feel."


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## Bound (Mar 26, 2008)

Drew said:


> I'll probably let you down, dude.
> 
> Seriously though, I don't think too much about scales anymore when I solo. I probably run the risk of sounding repetitive because of this, but...
> 
> That was the big thing I took away from taking lessons in college, though - really, there's no reason you can't play _anything_ over *anything* as long as you can find a way to resolve it.




I have problems with this and wish I could do it more proficiently. Lately I've stopped trying to make stuff more complex and just sit down with simple 3 chord riffs and improv over them mixing different scales and chromatics.. but I still struggle with it.


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## Blackrg (Mar 26, 2008)

telecaster90 said:


> This link FTW




This thread should be sticky

 stub, romeo, drew


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## stubhead (Mar 26, 2008)

I don't want to repeat, so I'll try to keep to a few short points.

1) If you're tapping and sweeping away, there's an extremely _high_ likelihood you're not actually thinking about a melody and then playing it.  Can you sing your taps? Can your (potential) groupies hum along? Yeah right, you only want to play for other shredders anyway....

2) Many, many great guitarists are good drummers too and _think_ rhythmically. Paul Gilbert, Eddie Van Halen, John McLaughlin, Jeff Beck, Steve Vai, they're all capable of _employment_ as a professional drummer. In his videos Gilbert especially talks about approaching a solo like a drummer, and his method of alternating a few bars of rhythm with a few bars of a fill is a good way in. Instead of another guitar get a $40 Ebay drum machine and learn how to program it; learn what a "Mersey beat" is, learn what a "train beat" is, learn what a samba is and _where_ the beats are, then play them on your guitar. It usually works to play the bass drum on a low string, snare in the middle, and hihat beats on an upper string. 

: : The Drummer's Bible : : <-great book, here.

To play scratch rhythms, get a digital delay/modeler that gives you a few seconds looping time and set up a looper. It's as easy as splitting your signal into two lines: one into a delay, and one into another channel. A $4 Radio Shack Y-adapter.... Record a rhythm into your loop, then kill the signal going to the delay (with a volume pedal, another stompbox set to send no signal etc.) then play over your scratch rhythm loop.

3) Listen to how _in_frequently great guitarists are actually playing flowing, legato lines - 30%? Certainly not half the time.... It's a nice effect, but if your playing is just drooling on, and on, and on, all the time, try hocking up a nice big solid goober and see just how _fun_ it is to splatter! 

$) Write a fucking _song_, O.K.?  The actual career opportunities for wanking in front of a webcam are maybe not quite as good as they look.


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## Drew (Mar 26, 2008)

Good advice, Stubhead!  

Honestly, trying to think about a solo rhythmically is awesome advice, and whenver I really focus on it I usually play leads in a totoally different way than I might otherwise.


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## YYZ2112 (Mar 26, 2008)

My solo strategy:

Place the whammy bar firmly in hand and begin to execute movement of said whammy bar with hand while picking numerous notes with no key in mind.

No seriously, I really try to not think about it too much. I find as I lock in on a melody I'm able to build off that with actual solo ideas. Sometimes it works and other times (like most times) I fail and decide the song I'm working on sucks at which I put the guitar down and get a beer.


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## Bound (Mar 26, 2008)

stubhead said:


> I don't want to repeat, so I'll try to keep to a few short points.
> 
> 1) If you're tapping and sweeping away, there's an extremely _high_ likelihood you're not actually thinking about a melody and then playing it.  Can you sing your taps? Can your (potential) groupies hum along? Yeah right, you only want to play for other shredders anyway....
> 
> ...




I think I love you....



































Seriously though, I love all of Gilberts Ideas about 'percussive' guitar playing. Top notch stuff.


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## stubhead (Mar 27, 2008)

I edited/added a little:

Instead of another guitar get a $40 Ebay drum machine and learn how to program it; learn what a "Mersey beat" is, learn what a "train beat" is, learn what a samba is and where the beats are, then play them on your guitar. It usually works to play the bass drum on a low string, snare in the middle, and hihat beats on an upper string.

: : The Drummer's Bible : : <-great book, here.

To play scratch rhythms, get a digital delay/modeler that gives you a few seconds looping time and set up a looper. It's as easy as splitting your signal into two lines: one into a delay, and one into another channel. A $4 Radio Shack Y-adapter.... Record a rhythm into your loop, then kill the signal going to the delay (with a volume pedal, another stompbox set to send no signal etc.) then play over your scratch rhythm loop.


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## Vision (Apr 8, 2008)

Drew said:


> I know this is a month old, give or take, but there's a dangerous hangup right there.
> 
> Don't think of it as "improvising in the blues minor," or "improvising in the harmonic minor," or whatever. Instead, learn to think of it as "improvising over such-and-such a set of chord changes." There's no reason you have to stay in the same scale for an entire solo, or an entire passage, or even an entire phrase, and arguably half the battle of improvising is learning how to artfully add tones _outside_ the obvious scale choice too the mix and still make it work.
> 
> ...



Funny you say all that... my guitar teacher had me learn all the scales, but he made me use white-out on the names of the scales.  He told me that it was important to know the patterns, but don't get focused on the names of them because I will get locked into it. He said "ANY" pattern I play can be considered "ANY" scale "ANYWHERE" on the neck - just learn the patterns and I will be fine.


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## ArchAngel1024 (Apr 14, 2008)

Drew said:


> I know this is a month old, give or take, but there's a dangerous hangup right there.
> 
> Don't think of it as "improvising in the blues minor," or "improvising in the harmonic minor," or whatever. Instead, learn to think of it as "improvising over such-and-such a set of chord changes." There's no reason you have to stay in the same scale for an entire solo, or an entire passage, or even an entire phrase, and arguably half the battle of improvising is learning how to artfully add tones _outside_ the obvious scale choice too the mix and still make it work.
> 
> ...



On my band's myspace there's 2 acoustic tracks with me on lead MySpace.com - Liar Orpheus [SHOW JUNE 14] - CADYVILLE, New York - Progressive / Alternative / Metal - www.myspace.com/liarorpheus the last 2 tracks on the player. They were after almost 4 hours of playing previously though, so it isn't my best by far. But there are still some cool ideas in them.

If you want to hear me (and a friends) non improv work listen to the stuff we have Here minus the solo section on Dots on Lines, which I have to rewrite.


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## Drew (Apr 15, 2008)

Vision said:


> Funny you say all that... my guitar teacher had me learn all the scales, but he made me use white-out on the names of the scales.  He told me that it was important to know the patterns, but don't get focused on the names of them because I will get locked into it. He said "ANY" pattern I play can be considered "ANY" scale "ANYWHERE" on the neck - just learn the patterns and I will be fine.



Hmm. I think you're either misunderstanding me, or I'm misunderstanding you. 

what your guitar teacher is getting at is that all the diatonic scales are effectively the same seven notes, in the same order. What distinguishes all of the modes from each other is not the pattern, but what note you treat as the tonic. So, while you can use the same pattern of notes to play Dorian, Mixolydian, or Locrean, what ditinguishes them is what note you treat as the starting point. D Dorian and C major share the exact same notes, it's just one you resolve to D while the other you resolve to C. 

So, what do you need to take away from this? That yes, all of the diatonic scales (more on that in a bit) rely on the same patterns, but what differentiates them is how they relate to what's going on _underneith_. I.e, that G Mixolydian has the sound it does because over a progression in G it creates the sound of a major scale with a minor 7th, while G Ionian (major) sounds different because, even though it uses the same pattern of notes, it starts from a different point and the net result is that the 7th is major. Same patterns, sure, but they create different atmospheres against that same G chord. 

So, try this. Record a minute or two worth of strumming a simple G major chord, open position, in a fixed rhythm. Now, go back and improvise over the top, playing in G major. Next, play over the chord again in G Lydian. Next try G Pentatonic Major. Then try G Mixolydian. Then, try G pentatonic minor. All of these scales should sound fairly musical over the chord, the first four because they all contain a G major triad (G, B, D), and the fifth because a pentatonic minor scale against a major harmony is such a fixture of traditional blues that your ear will accept it readily. 

Now, for kicks, try some weirder stuff - G Locrean, for instance. Technically, this is about as "wrong" a scale as you could get, as the 3rd and 5th are flat. However, if you're careful, you should be able to do something here that works. Say, use the 3rd and 5th as passing tones, and spend more time on the root and 4th, which should sound more consonant. If need be, try playing predominantly locrean lines, but resolving to sustained chord tones even though they're outside the scale. It'll sound pretty odd, but if you're careful, you CAN make it work. 

So, where am I going here? That each of the aforementioned scales in that first paragraph is a perfectly viable option for soloing over a G chord, since they contain the appropriate chord tones. What makes them different, then? The non-chord tone notes, which provide the "color" too the scale. 

The Locrean is arguably NOT appropriate, but trying to make it work anyway could be a valuable excersize in resolution, and sometimes that "way out there, but intentionally so" vibe might be just what the climax of a particularly fucked up solo needs to push it over the top. 

Also, this is kind of implicit here, but there's absolutely no reason you have to limit yourself to just one scale, while improvising - trading bars of G major and G pentatonic minor might sound pretty righteous.


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## Luan (Apr 16, 2008)

distressed_romeo said:


> Agree 100%. The best part of studying jazz is that it gets you out of the thing a lot of shredders do where each part of the solo is just a showcase for a particular technique rather than a musical phrase, like they think 'tapping bit-fast picking bit, sweeping bit, blues lick, whammy bar bit...' and just string together a bunch of exercises they've practiced to death, rather than thinking in terms of developing motifs.



People then wonder why I hate so much Cooley's playing


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## Drew (Apr 17, 2008)

Luan said:


> People then wonder why I hate so much Cooley's playing



Actually, the man really plays some interesting lines. He just does them so fucking fast it's tough to pick them out.


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## Drew (Apr 17, 2008)

ArchAngel1024 said:


> On my band's myspace there's 2 acoustic tracks with me on lead MySpace.com - Liar Orpheus [SHOW JUNE 14] - CADYVILLE, New York - Progressive / Alternative / Metal - www.myspace.com/liarorpheus the last 2 tracks on the player. They were after almost 4 hours of playing previously though, so it isn't my best by far. But there are still some cool ideas in them.
> 
> If you want to hear me (and a friends) non improv work listen to the stuff we have Here minus the solo section on Dots on Lines, which I have to rewrite.



Ok, 2:45 into the first song. You know what I said about Gilmour? Doubly true. Your melodic sense isn't actually too bad, especially if you haven't been wrong, but there's no rhythmic development, it's all constant. 

Remember (and I'm guilty of this a lot myself too, so I'm speaking as a fellow perpetrator and not an authority), every note you play is a proactive choice, taking over what could have been space between notes. Don't play they mecause you have no reason not to - do so because you have a reason TO. Likewise, explore different rhythmic groupings- practice going back betwen quarter notes, quarter triplets (3 against 2, for the previous duration), 8th notes, 8th triplets, 8th notes, etc. 

Also, grab a copy of George Lynch's first solo on Tony Macalpine's "Tears of Sahara" If you want to talk about rhythmic variety... Man.

On the plus side, I'm hearing what I think is the begining of a hell of a good "touch" on the guitar- you're either lucking out left and right on dynamic control or the way you're "shaping" notes, or you've got a handle on varying up your attack, and that's half the battle to having awesome phrasing.  It's totally carrying your playing here, which in itself is yet another reason to listen to a ton of Floyd so you can better appreciate what you're already doing right.


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## ArchAngel1024 (Apr 18, 2008)

Drew said:


> Ok, 2:45 into the first song. You know what I said about Gilmour? Doubly true. Your melodic sense isn't actually too bad, especially if you haven't been wrong, but there's no rhythmic development, it's all constant.
> 
> Remember (and I'm guilty of this a lot myself too, so I'm speaking as a fellow perpetrator and not an authority), every note you play is a proactive choice, taking over what could have been space between notes. Don't play they mecause you have no reason not to - do so because you have a reason TO. Likewise, explore different rhythmic groupings- practice going back betwen quarter notes, quarter triplets (3 against 2, for the previous duration), 8th notes, 8th triplets, 8th notes, etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the tips, we have another track from tuesday I think where we did an acoustic jam on a chord progression I yelled jokingly. Being into prog, Austin switched keys all over, and had to tell me what we were playing in. As soon as I get the track, I'll post it for you. It's got a very Spanish feel to it.

I think part of my playing style evolved from reading theory guides during classes for a month or two, and even though I don't do it knowingly, I use weird tricks in my playing (Playing in D over a G progression that goes into D) without doing it on purpose. It shows up in some of my improv stuff, and I'm usually surprised by what exactly I did in certain parts. It's probbably also because of my love of Tool (I have a 10,000 days shirt on now )

Part of the issue with those tracks is (again) it was after hours of playing, and I wasn't thinking about what I was doing before hand, it was all the immediate emotion of the week. 

I'm not 100% sure what you mean by "Touch" and "Dynamic Control" though.


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## Jachop (Apr 25, 2008)

Now, I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if someone has mentioned this already but here goes.

Stop seeing music in keys, start looking at the chords. For example, you can play both ionic and lydian over a maj7 chord. If it lacks the seven you can also play the mixolydian. Same goes for minor7 chords, you can play both phrygian, aeolic and dorian over it. If it's an m7b5 though, locrian's your man.

And also, rhythm. Try off beat phrases for example. Or in odd note grouping. Whatever that sounds cool really. I like playing 16-notes in groups of seven. Try that, it's a bitch to count in the beginning though. If you for example have two measures, then you can squeeze in four groups of seven, and you'll have to end with a group of four (if you completely want to fill those measures that is).


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## ArchAngel1024 (Apr 29, 2008)

Jachop said:


> Now, I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know if someone has mentioned this already but here goes.
> 
> Stop seeing music in keys, start looking at the chords. For example, you can play both ionic and lydian over a maj7 chord. If it lacks the seven you can also play the mixolydian. Same goes for minor7 chords, you can play both phrygian, aeolic and dorian over it. If it's an m7b5 though, locrian's your man.
> 
> And also, rhythm. Try off beat phrases for example. Or in odd note grouping. Whatever that sounds cool really. I like playing 16-notes in groups of seven. Try that, it's a bitch to count in the beginning though. If you for example have two measures, then you can squeeze in four groups of seven, and you'll have to end with a group of four (if you completely want to fill those measures that is).


must take a lot to work that phrasing into a song so that it comes out melodic. I wrote out just a solid note in 16:7 and it's really weird sounding.

My non-improv solos have really evolved recently. Example in the enclosed (*UNFINISHED*) track (written entirely by me)


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