# Guitar teacher is frustrating me with endless boring scale practice and no songs or new things



## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

Current teacher has me rehashing endless scale practice sequences like do 3 notes up one down and so forth like this stuff without context:









Scale Sequences: 15 Hot Patterns That Will Fire Up Your Solos


These patterns will ignite your solos and licks with a new intensity.




www.guitarworld.com





So I was upset and asked him why and he comes back with:



> All I can tell you is that Marty Friedman and Jason Becker famously spent hours a day in Jason Becker's backyard playing exercises to a metronome trying to outdo each other. He spent years building his chops. I have never encountered a great guitar player in the 36 years I have been playing who didn't spend a lot of time on this. It is just what you have to do to develop great technique. Go check out any interview by John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, Chris Broderick, Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert, Steve Morse, Alex Skolnick, Tosin Abasi, etc and you will hear them say the same thing. Trying to build chops without exercises makes as much sense as trying to build muscles without working out. It is just what has to be done if you want to develop great chops. It doesn't have to be the only thing you work on, but it has to be a regular part of your practice schedule.



I then told teacher that I can woodshed mindlessly to metronome at home for FREE without paying him to watch me like a hawk as I do these exercises. I was upset at him and said we need context for me to learn these perhaps some riffs or songs that use them? Should I fire my teacher and just learn on my own? He is not teaching me cool stuff like sweep picking and arpeggios with songs.


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## Grindspine (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> Current teacher has me rehashing endless scale practice sequences like do 3 notes up one down and so forth like this stuff without context:





sacguy71 said:


> He is not teaching me cool stuff like sweep picking and arpeggios with songs.


Sweep picking and arpeggios rely on scales. Do you not see the connection?


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> Sweep picking and arpeggios rely on scales. Do you not see the connection?



Hmm arpeggios are based on chords I thought! My point being the lessons are not teaching me new material the same scale patterns I have learned months ago.


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## rokket2005 (Sep 10, 2022)

I think I would prefer that a teacher focus on technical aspects to pinpoint any areas in your form that might need addressing. If there are songs you are interested in learning you can pick them up on your own time, and if you're having trouble with sections bring those to the lessons. Unless he is refusing to help you with certain songs you bring to lessons I understand wanting to nail down good technique. If he straight up tells you he won't help with things you want to learn that are in conjunction with his teaching method I might look for a new teacher.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

I was polite and asked him what the next few lessons will cover and he gave some good updates




> Next up is Diatonic scales and Modes. After that the plan is to work on 3-4 seven string songs. ThenI will show you a few songs with solos and all. After that we move into Arpeggios and sweep picking. You had also mentioned to me that you want to get into multi finger tapping which is also on the list after sweep picking. Always remember that it is very important that you always continue practicing everything we are working on because we will need it in the future. So keep at it and we get into Diatonic scales next week!




Guess I need to be patient for now. I think that my point of frustration was that before the pandemic hit, we had covered a lot of this in past lessons and then had not seen him for a year due to lockdowns and he thought my skills were weak in these areas? Who knows?


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> Hmm arpeggios are based on chords I thought! My point being the lessons are not teaching me new material the same scale patterns I have learned months ago.


Then you may still need to work on your technique.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

budda said:


> Then you may still need to work on your technique.



true but everyone needs to work on technique even the masters


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> true but everyone needs to work on technique even the masters


As a teacher, I can tell you that having students stuck on something for months isnt fun for us either . Are you actually practicing what you’ve been given?

Once you get something down, it’s maintenance. That isnt quite the same as learning it.

If you know of songs using the technique you are currently learning, try learning those songs alongside your practice schedule.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

budda said:


> As a teacher, I can tell you that having students stuck on something for months isnt fun for us either . Are you actually practicing what you’ve been given?
> 
> Once you get something down, it’s maintenance. That isnt quite the same as learning it.



Good to know! Yes, I practice religiously hour daily.


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> Good to know! Yes, I practice religiously hour daily.


Are you practicing properly? Again if its the same sequences for 12 weeks, that is worth a discussion.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

budda said:


> Are you practicing properly? Again if its the same sequences for 12 weeks, that is worth a discussion.



yes


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## lurè (Sep 10, 2022)

Once you learn all the 7 position of the major scale 3 NPS your teacher should focus on playing those scales over chords and that's what takes a lot of time. 
Learning all the patterns 3 NPS is not that time consuming and most of the work is on the student, but contextualizing those scale over chord changes is vital and should be done with your teacher. Scales per se are useless if you cant play them over chords.


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## ShredmasterD (Sep 10, 2022)

||: practice :|| young padawan


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

My point is that I covered all this stuff with the teacher a year ago and not learning anything new.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Sep 10, 2022)

Are you playing through the scale exercises or are you actively working on improving them?

A few suggestions (all with a metronome, seriously):
1 - play clean - no overdrive at all. make sure you can hear every note clearly and *evenly*
2 - play very very slowly. Make sure you have 0 tension at all in any finger at any time
3 - play faster. Start with your 100% confident speed, move up 5 bpm at a time. If you can't play it at a speed, keep trying. Just be a bit uncomfy and get used to a new speed with your fingers. Then move back down and play cleanly. Then move back up.
4 - break down certain parts. Can you play the e-a triplets over and over by themselves? How about back down? Then do a-d and so on. Do 1-3 for each pair of strings both up and down.
5 - can you play the scale patterns all the way through starting on a random string? How about with a random starting pick direction? How about the second or third note of that string's pattern? Again, 1-3 for each exercise.

I have my own super mega boring exercise I add in with the above, but if you actively aim to improve and target your weak points you'll rocket up in skill and your teacher will move you on. If you feel like you can play something, you do not need to be doing that thing. But that does not mean you're done with the exercise it means you aren't challenging yourself with that exercise anymore be it with speed, precision, flexibility, finger independence, etc. etc.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

Yes I can do these things fine without problem just not at 300 BPM like my teacher.


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> Yes I can do these things fine without problem just not at 300 BPM like my teacher.


So maybe that’s why you’re still on them?

If that isnt your goal, let them know and make a new plan. No harm trying out other teachers while you wait.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

budda said:


> So maybe that’s why you’re still on them?
> 
> If that isnt your goal, let them know and make a new plan. No harm trying out other teachers while you wait.



Yea I paid for the month lessons with the teacher so will see how the next one goes before deciding whether or not to continue or find a new teacher and learn stuff on my own. Honestly, most metal songs are 90% rhythm anyways and only few solos difficult that involve sweep arpeggios and so forth.


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 10, 2022)

You sound like me when I was a kid. I wanted to skip the “boring stuff” and just learn to play Metallica and Pantera. I’m now 38 and taking lessons again and soaking in every little thing my teacher gives me because I realize how much I squandered my opportunity to learn when I was a kid.

You’re saying you want to learn sweep picking and two handed tapping but you want to skip the boring stuff that gets you there eventually.


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## tekbow (Sep 10, 2022)

Have you not watched Karate Kid?


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

I don’t see many popular bands doing scales like FIve Finger Death Punch or Rammstein.


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> I don’t see many popular bands doing scales like FIve Finger Death Punch or Rammstein.


Now im confused. So what is your goal with sweeping? 

Scratch that, what is your current goal as a guitar player?


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

budda said:


> Now im confused. So what is your goal with sweeping?
> 
> Scratch that, what is your current goal as a guitar player?



to play songs and make rock and metal music for fun not as a career. I doubt you would ask Metallica to play a scale at a concert. If I was study for a degree in music then can see spending years on scale sequences.


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## tekbow (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> to play songs and make rock and metal music for fun not as a career. I doubt you would ask Metallica to play a scale at a concert. If I was study for a degree in music then can see spending years on scale sequences.



You don't create books by writing out the alphabet over and over, then sending it to a publisher.

But you still need to learn the alphabet.


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## soul_lip_mike (Sep 10, 2022)

Even if Kirk’s solos are a bit bland the last few decades, tons of his earlier solos use things like arpeggios and scale runs.





sacguy71 said:


> to play songs and make rock and metal music for fun not as a career. I doubt you would ask Metallica to play a scale at a concert. If I was study for a degree in music then can see spending years on scale sequences.


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## profwoot (Sep 10, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> Are you playing through the scale exercises or are you actively working on improving them?
> 
> A few suggestions (all with a metronome, seriously):
> 1 - play clean - no overdrive at all. make sure you can hear every note clearly and *evenly*
> ...


For anyone who feels "stuck" in your skill level, regardless of whatever else you're doing, do some of this ^. Constantly. Just get to the point where it's something you do for at least a few minutes as soon as you pick up the instrument... and maybe occasionally as kinda your main life activity. It's not the only important thing to learn, but it makes all the other stuff so much more fun. It doesn't even take too long before challenging yourself and just generally feeling agile in your playing of random notes gets pretty fun for its own sake.

Take it from me, someone who has played guitar for 28 years but never bothered to really get my hand synchronization and ability to play any note in any order at reasonable speed down cold, until recently. It's just soooooo much more fun. Ideally, do it while you're young so later on you can spend your limited free time actually playing (maybe even making!) music.


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## budda (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> to play songs and make rock and metal music for fun not as a career. I doubt you would ask Metallica to play a scale at a concert. If I was study for a degree in music then can see spending years on scale sequences.


My favourite part of this is that the intro to master of puppets is a chromatic run in E, skipping a couple notes at the end. I dont have to ask them, they already do it. And many solos are scalar runs…

The fast run towards the end of the solo in “crazy train” is literally Randy ripping through the pentatonic minor. 

See where Im going with this?


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## jaxadam (Sep 10, 2022)

budda said:


> My favourite part of this is that the intro to master of puppets is a chromatic run in E, skipping a couple notes at the end. I dont have to ask them, they already do it. And many solos are scalar runs…
> 
> The fast run towards the end of the solo in “crazy train” is literally Randy ripping through the pentatonic minor.
> 
> See where Im going with this?



Wait, I thought all leads were just scales played really fast!


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

profwoot said:


> For anyone who feels "stuck" in your skill level, regardless of whatever else you're doing, do some of this ^. Constantly. Just get to the point where it's something you do for at least a few minutes as soon as you pick up the instrument... and maybe occasionally as kinda your main life activity. It's not the only important thing to learn, but it makes all the other stuff so much more fun. It doesn't even take too long before challenging yourself and just generally feeling agile in your playing of random notes gets pretty fun for its own sake.
> 
> Take it from me, someone who has played guitar for 28 years but never bothered to really get my hand synchronization and ability to play any note in any order at reasonable speed down cold, until recently. It's just soooooo much more fun. Ideally, do it while you're young so later on you can spend your limited free time actually playing (maybe even making!) music.


I have already been doing these things. My point is to have musical context to apply these things.


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## broj15 (Sep 10, 2022)

I might be in the minority but in my opinion you should ask yourself what do you want to get out of playing guitar or what exactly do you want to do/be: A shredder that can play any solo? A solid rhythm player that can play heavy riffs and stay on time with a metronome - or easily lock into a groove with a drummer? Someone that can go to an open jam and competently play with strangers over a basic chord progression? Do you want to write/record the music you hear in your head? Do you want to learn how to play the songs you like listening to? A combination of any/all of these things?

That's also an honest conversation you should have with your teacher AFTER you've had it with yourself. Some teachers really only know how to teach a certain way or a single "discipline" of the guitar.

Arguably all of these things require different kinds of practice (albeit with a lot of the same techniques as a foundation).

If you wanna shred like Jason Becker then you probably need to practice in the same way as Jason becker. At the same time I can totally understand how just playing drills outside of any musical context can be incredibly mind numbing and not really fun, and that can make it difficult to get motivated to do any real practice.

I personally have no desire to shred or play solos so I don't focus alot of my practice time (if any) on playing sweeps, tapping, legato, single string scale runs etc. (I aspire to be a tight & fast rhythm player over any other aspect of my playing).

Really at the end of the day if you're the one paying for your lessons and you don't like what you're getting out of it from your current teacher then find a new teacher. That doesn't necessarily mean the teacher is at fault, nor does it mean you're at fault either, but be honest with yourself and your teacher when asking why your lessons are made up of what they are and why he feels progress isn't being vs. You think things should be progressing


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## sacguy71 (Sep 10, 2022)

broj15 said:


> I might be in the minority but in my opinion you should ask yourself what do you want to get out of playing guitar or what exactly do you want to do/be: A shredder that can play any solo? A solid rhythm player that can play heavy riffs and stay on time with a metronome - or easily lock into a groove with a drummer? Someone that can go to an open jam and competently play with strangers over a basic chord progression? Do you want to write/record the music you hear in your head? Do you want to learn how to play the songs you like listening to? A combination of any/all of these things?
> 
> That's also an honest conversation you should have with your teacher AFTER you've had it with yourself. Some teachers really only know how to teach a certain way or a single "discipline" of the guitar.
> 
> ...



honestly just play purely for fun and to learn metal songs and eventually create my own. I’m already coming up with some original riffs, licks and versions of popular songs. Playing a diatonic scale sequence at 300 BPM is not my end goal as a guitar player. I’m not against practicing exercises bit also want some context to go with that less fun side of learning guitar. I already learned tapping, legato, phrasing and a few songs and my pentatonic and diatonic scales and major chords. But playing scale sequences at warp speed and while also bending the high E string across the fretboard is not my idea of a good time.


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## broj15 (Sep 10, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> honestly just play purely for fun and to learn metal songs and eventually create my own. I’m already coming up with some original riffs, licks and versions of popular songs. Playing a diatonic scale sequence at 300 BPM is not my end goal as a guitar player. I’m not against practicing exercises bit also want some context to go with that less fun side of learning guitar. I already learned tapping, legato, phrasing and a few songs and my pentatonic and diatonic scales and major chords. But playing scale sequences at warp speed and while also bending the high E string across the fretboard is not my idea of a good time.



Then tell your teacher that and see what he says. Ask him specifically why he thinks you need to be able to do those things in order to do the things you want to do. If you disagree with his reasoning and that's all he wants to teach you then find a new teacher. Like I said, some teachers only teach certain things or a certain way.

For example: one of my close friends makes a good 75% of their total income off of playing guitar (3-5 gigs a week playing mostly originals & some covers with a band, some session work, and giving lessons). They can most certainly shred with the best of them, but when it comes to teaching they stick to theory and the basic techniques because that's what they like & are able to teach people. They don't want to & aren't comfortable teaching people how to shred and would much rather help people develop as song writers (how to write hooks & catchy melodies, learning theory so you have the tools to do that yourself etc.). Doesn't make them a bad teacher and it doesn't make the students who want to learn how to shred bad students.
Alternatively, my first teacher was an 80's shredder through and through with a really good ear so with him it was the basic techniques & rudimentary theory first and then you'd bring him a song and he'd transcribe it by ear and tab it out for you, or it was drills and exercises for sweeps, tapping, scales, legato runs, and all the other flashy stuff. I stuck with him for my first 4 years, but after that I felt like he'd given me the tools to do what I wanted to do, but I didn't want to go in the direction he wants his students to go. We're still friends and catch up with each other from time to time (he rents a space for his repair workshop in the same building as my dad's workshop) but my interests as far as playing music didn't align with his after a certain point. A few years ago, long after I'd stopped taking lessons from him he even told me he wished he could cut most of his students loose except for the few he likes teaching because he felt they had "real potential". And for what it's worth he now plays guitar in a kick ass country/southern rock/blues cover band cuz "it's more fun than a 9-5 but it still pays the bills."


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## Mathemagician (Sep 10, 2022)

jaxadam said:


> Wait, I thought all leads were just scales played really fast!



*John Petrucci has entered the chat*


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## sacguy71 (Sep 11, 2022)

Your first teacher sounds like my current shredder teacher. I liked my first teacher who taught me like your friend and that was a fun experience. Shred theory teacher makes practice tedious and not fun and he is brutal in lessons. I managed to express my frustration over his way of teaching this since I only want to learn how to play a few Dream Theater, Slayer and Megadeth type songs. I don’t give a shit about playing flashy solos that comprise 5% of these songs.


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## Metaldestroyerdennis (Sep 11, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> I only want to learn how to play a few Dream Theater, Slayer and Megadeth type songs. I don’t give a shit about playing flashy solos that comprise 5% of these songs.


dang when you said metal rhythm I thought you were talking about like metalcore. You want to play fast, advanced, scale-based songs but don't want to learn fast, advanced scale exercises. Your teacher is giving you the right tools to play this kind of stuff. Or maybe I'm listening to a different Dream Theater, Slayer and Megadeth.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 11, 2022)

Metaldestroyerdennis said:


> dang when you said metal rhythm I thought you were talking about like metalcore. You want to play fast, advanced, scale-based songs but don't want to learn fast, advanced scale exercises. Your teacher is giving you the right tools to play this kind of stuff. Or maybe I'm listening to a different Dream Theater, Slayer and Megadeth.



stuff Like Rammstein and FFDP is heavy rhythm based as well as a lot of DT and Megadeth songs. Yes the solos are highly technical but the main riffs are lot of palm muted gallop type riffs. I do not have an issue learning scales but in CONTEXT of a SONG example!! Lamb of God and Cannibal Corpse also very heavy fast rhythm songs.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 11, 2022)

Pull me under by DT is heavy power chord based at least until the solos. Same for most metal stuff I see in tabs.


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## Velokki (Sep 11, 2022)

Well, you do realize the school of thought this teacher represents... I mean, look at this list:
_"John Petrucci, Joe Satriani, Chris Broderick, Steve Vai, Paul Gilbert, Steve Morse, Alex Skolnick, Tosin Abasi"_

For me, none of those players have made music that I like. AAL has some good songs, and I respect the shit out of ALL of those guitarists based on their technical ability. But listen to Deftones, Nevermore, Nirvana, Pantera or Soilwork etc... GREAT MUSIC! That has groove and meaning. Makes you feel all kinds of things.

If I was you - I would just take 10 of your favorite songs and solos. Then I would piece them out, and start learning them. Then get lessons from Teemu Mäntysaari (IMO the greatest technique teacher) to nail the techniques needed to play those hard parts you can't play yet.

*Your teacher is in the Berklee school of thought - play scales 8 hours a day, develop no own musical originality and hate yourself!*


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 11, 2022)

That’s a sure way to suck the life out of guitar by only playing scales to a metronome all day long. There is so much wrong with what he said to you I don’t know where to even begin tearing it apart. The number one reason those players are great is because of their creativity and how they used their growing technique + theory knowledge very early in their playing to create their personal style, not because they ran scales up and down all day long. Any time I see players do that they burn out and lose interest in their instrument. 

I got very lucky when I was younger and had a guitar teacher who thought me various techniques and chords/scales/patterns but the main emphasis every lesson was on creativity. Using them in the context of a chord progression or writing your own melodies, transcribing music to hear how different players used technique/theory. Yes woodshedding is how you get good technique and precise timing but guitar is such an expressive instrument, your teacher is only focusing on a small area of playing. You can do that at home. 

My advice is to get a different teacher more in line what you want. Maybe even just rely on YouTube teachers like Ben Eller until you know what you want next from a teacher.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 11, 2022)

So I asked my teacher what we plan to cover in the next few lessons and he came back and said:



> Diatonic scales and Modes. After that the plan is to work on 3-4 seven string songs. Then I will show you a few songs with solos and all. After that we move into Arpeggios and sweep picking.


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## nickgray (Sep 11, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> I doubt you would ask Metallica to play a scale at a concert


Dude... you don't learn scales to literally play a scale up and down, nobody actually plays like that anyway.

You learn scales in order to recognize patterns more easily. Especially 3 notes per string scale patterns, because when you know them well enough you'll instantly recognize them in tons of melodies, licks, and so on.

Obviously, there needs to be a balance between learning boring mechanical stuff and actually playing or composing music. Likewise, you need to understand the big picture and how music theory is actually used, because if you literally only learn scales just to learn scales, then of course it would seem pointless, but that's just down to shit education.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 11, 2022)

nickgray said:


> Dude... you don't learn scales to literally play a scale up and down, nobody actually plays like that anyway.
> 
> You learn scales in order to recognize patterns more easily. Especially 3 notes per string scale patterns, because when you know them well enough you'll instantly recognize them in tons of melodies, licks, and so on.
> 
> Obviously, there needs to be a balance between learning boring mechanical stuff and actually playing or composing music. Likewise, you need to understand the big picture and how music theory is actually used, because if you literally only learn scales just to learn scales, then of course it would seem pointless, but that's just down to shit education.



Well that is shit my teacher should be explaining!


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## Lemonbaby (Sep 11, 2022)

Simple. You pay him, so he literally works for you. If he can't clearly explain in three to five sentences why/how his method is the quickest way to achieve your goals, he's fired.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 11, 2022)

I’ll ask in next lesson. Since I paid for month lesson will see what he says and teaches.


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## Deadpool_25 (Sep 19, 2022)

This is an interesting thread. Scale exercises are important, as many here have said. However as a person with an educational (in the military) background, I'll say it's almost always _vitally_ important for a teacher to give context about why something that seems mundane is important.

Someone mentioned The Karate Kid. Apropos. Mr. Myagi has Daniel doing exercises that seem ridiculous and don't seem connected to his desire to learn Karate. He's frustrated and goes off on his instructor who then puts those exercises into a Karate context. That's when it clicks for ol' Daniel-san: maybe these exercises aren't so stupid after all.

Without context the student can easily start to question the lessons. This questioning, and the lack of confidence that typically comes with it, reduce the student's ability/willingness to absorb the material.

This post is a textbook (pun intended) example of this. The teacher said something along the lines of, "these great players all did it." That might be enough for some people, not so much for others. Regardless, the fact that they did it only implies that it _is_ important; it doesn't at all explain _why_ it's important.

Knowing, more specifically understanding, why something is important makes it far more likely one will be willing to really focus on learning it.

Additionally, for most students, you really need to have a good feel for giving the student a good balance between work and fun (or be damned good at disguising work as fun).


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## sacguy71 (Sep 20, 2022)

Deadpool_25 said:


> This is an interesting thread. Scale exercises are important, as many here have said. However as a person with an educational (in the military) background, I'll say it's almost always _vitally_ important for a teacher to give context about why something that seems mundane is important.
> 
> Someone mentioned The Karate Kid. Apropos. Mr. Myagi has Daniel doing exercises that seem ridiculous and don't seem connected to his desire to learn Karate. He's frustrated and goes off on his instructor who then puts those exercises into a Karate context. That's when it clicks for ol' Daniel-san: maybe these exercises aren't so stupid after all.
> 
> ...



True indeed and I believe that exercises like learning scales and chords is vital for practice but needs to be balanced with context and learning new songs, riffs, and licks. My teacher did mention that we would learn new songs soon after we cover modes and diatonic patterns then move on to arpeggios and new stuff! He showed me some examples of metal solos and songs that use what we have been learning. I just got my new Yngwie Malmsteen Stratocaster guitar and a tab book of Yngwie's songs and see the correlation now to learning the scale sequences and metal songs.


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## bostjan (Sep 21, 2022)

I majored in physics at the university. For four years, my teachers taught me mathematics - all sorts of mathematics. At no point in time did we ever learn one principle of physics and then learn the mathematics of it afterward, only learn the mathematics, then, if you're lucky, a year later, learn the application for it. But it worked that way because the mathematics was the language used to describe the physics stuff. Without knowing the mathematics first, it wouldn't have made any sense.

A lot of students are like frustrated to learn a single piece of music theory. Hell, a lot of professionals at the top level don't care at all about theory, they just write cool riffs and play. But you are taking lessons. And you cannot teach someone how to just be a natural and write cool riffs and play, so, what you have to do, as a teacher, is teach your student the language you need to speak to them in order to get your ideas across - thus all of the monotonous scale practice. So when the teacher says "this song is in A major locrian" you won't have to pause for 20 minutes whilst your teacher explains what the hell that means.


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## thraxil (Sep 21, 2022)

bostjan said:


> I majored in physics at the university. For four years, my teachers taught me mathematics - all sorts of mathematics. At no point in time did we ever learn one principle of physics and then learn the mathematics of it afterward, only learn the mathematics, then, if you're lucky, a year later, learn the application for it. But it worked that way because the mathematics was the language used to describe the physics stuff. Without knowing the mathematics first, it wouldn't have made any sense.


I'm jealous. My physics classes were often the other way around or at least would only introduce mathematical concepts as a couple rules to apply without really understanding them. The big one for me was tensors. It was basically "here's some clever notation that will let you work with multidimensional matrices without having to write so much: just apply these rules for manipulating subscripts and superscripts and don't worry about how it works". But it was never explained in either my physics classes or math classes. By the time I graduated, I could *do* stuff with tensors but had no idea WTF a tensor actually *was*. I had to go back years later and work it out on my own. Probably a big part of why, after getting a Physics degree, I immediately switched over to computers...

Anyway, yeah, scales are super important. They're the structure that underpins pretty much everything else: chords, arpeggios, harmony, melody, etc. It's absolutely worth learning the major and minor scale patterns, how they relate to each other and the rest of modal structure and getting all of that pretty solid early on. It gives your mind a scaffold to attach everything else you learn to later on.

But learning that stuff doesn't necessarily require being able to play every 3 or 4 note per string pattern at 300 bpm. You should learn some scale-based exercises at the beginning of your journey and keep them as a part of your practice regimen for the rest of your life as a musician. But a teacher should also be giving them some actual musical context and helping a student understand how it's useful for their particular goals. Every minute you spend on scale-based exercises is a minute well spent in the long run. But it's a waste if you get so frustrated that you quit playing because you don't have the tools to apply those scale exercises to actual music.


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## wheresthefbomb (Sep 21, 2022)

Deadpool_25 said:


> Knowing, more specifically understanding, why something is important makes it far more likely one will be willing to really focus on learning it.



Anecdotally, this reminds me of learning to drive stick shift. I was teaching myself and really struggling, til my mechanic friend actually explained how everything worked in there, what the clutch was doing when I depressed it etc. Once I had that understanding and was able to conceptualize what was happening inside the car it just "clicked." 

That was a very illuminating experience overall.


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## littlebadboy (Sep 21, 2022)

Coming from a 3rd world country and poor not being able to pay for lessons...

If you're bored with your teacher, learn how to play tabs. Pick a song. Learn it. Play it over and over until you can proficiently play along the song with ease. Then, move on to the next. Then, on to the next.

Then, go back and learn with a good teacher to learn theory and techniques to find out why your pieces were played that way, etc.


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## wheresthefbomb (Sep 21, 2022)

littlebadboy said:


> Coming from a 3rd world country and poor not being able to pay for lessons...
> 
> If you're bored with your teacher, learn how to play tabs. Pick a song. Learn it. Play it over and over until you can proficiently play along the song with ease. Then, move on to the next. Then, on to the next.
> 
> Then, go back and learn with a good teacher to learn theory and techniques to find out why your pieces were played that way, etc.



this is how I learned to play, minus the "going back to a good teacher" part hahaha. my HS friend's cousin summed me up thusly: "Forrest can play every song TOOL has ever written, really badly."


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## Emperoff (Sep 21, 2022)

First off you should consider wether you want to learn solos or not, because if that's not your thing you're gonna hate practicing something that you don't like. Maybe you might practice rythm patterns, chord progressions, or overall music theory instead. Now, if you do want to learn how to solo, at some point you're going to need to learn scales.

The problem I see with scales is that most exercises are the same ultraboring 3-note-per-string exercices at all positions, etc.

I'm gonna leave this here. These JTC methods are absolute gold and can't recommend them enough:

Major scale soloing:


Minor scale soloing:


The exercises are creative, they're not based in "positions" and they cover almost the whole fretboard. This means you will learn where the notes of the scale are, instead of "shapes" or "positions".

Each chapter also has a lot of very cool licks to learn and a solo that kinda sums them all up. Even the beginner licks are superb.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Sep 25, 2022)

You don’t get accountability from YouTube. Only an instructor can give you that face to face as they inspect the nuances that you express. I’m friends with the teacher I had all through the 70’s and 80’s and his contribution to my playing can not be overstated. I think with the availability of info online, we’ve come to expect faster results and therefore we tend to under appreciate the value of an extended investment of time.


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## AMOS (Sep 25, 2022)

It's not going to hurt to receive instruction besides him. Find a shredder to teach you advanced technique while learning theory with someone else.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 28, 2022)

T


AMOS said:


> It's not going to hurt to receive instruction besides him. Find a shredder to teach you advanced technique while learning theory with someone else.


True. I use videos online and guitar books as well as reading tab. I balance what he wants me to work on like scales with some new guitar tab songs.


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## washburned (Sep 28, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> True indeed and I believe that exercises like learning scales and chords is vital for practice but needs to be balanced with context and learning new songs, riffs, and licks. My teacher did mention that we would learn new songs soon after we cover modes and diatonic patterns then move on to arpeggios and new stuff! He showed me some examples of metal solos and songs that use what we have been learning. I just got my new Yngwie Malmsteen Stratocaster guitar and a tab book of Yngwie's songs and see the correlation now to learning the scale sequences and metal songs.


This may help. Here's some diagrams I made for a friend (they're for drop d btw and arranged like tablature, should be easy to ignore low string and treat that relationship the same as you would for the first ADG strings if you play Standard). What it is, is the major scale which is what everything is based off of. The goal, is to be able to visualize each "scale degree" from every root note to start within one octave, vertically, and horizontally. This also cuts out note names for the most part, you can always learn those later. This is all about patterns, but in a way that cultivates freedom, not a mindless and boring 3 note per string mess

Scales, Chords, and Arpeggios are basically all the same thing, or at least highly related.

If you can do this it's a great basis for visualization and freedom on the fretboard, and you can start to modify the scale. For example flatten the 3 -- lower it a fret (1 2 b3 4 5 6 7) and you have melodic minor. Sharp the 4 -- raise it a fret (1 2 3 #4 5 6 7) and you have Lydian. Flatten 3 6 7 and you have natural minor, just flatten 3 and 6 and you have harmonic minor -- one of my personal favorites is Lydian #2 which is just 1 #2 3 #4 5 6 7

If you take this far enough you can easily construct chords in any position, and their inversions (this just means swapping the bass note for another member of the chord). You can also play any scale in any direction or position quite easily

Chord one: 1 3 5 7 (2 4 6 extensions, usually called 9, 11, 13 because they're an octave up, but I just stick with 2 4 6 in my head)
Chord two: 2 4 6 1 (3 5 7 extensions)
Chord three: 3 5 7 2 ( 4 6 1 extensions)
Cord four: 4 6 1 3 (5 7 2 extensions)
Chord five: 5 7 2 4 (6 1 3 extensions)
Chord six: 6 1 3 5 ( 7 2 4 extensions)
Chord seven: 7 2 4 6 (1 3 5 extensions)

There are no rules to how you learn this if you try this method. The goal is to get your visualization to a high level to construct things instantaneously.

I would explore certain scales or modes that you discover you like the sound of and work them into this framework if you decide to try it. I personally consider visualization a fundamental skill which if it's up to snuff, you can easily apply theory to as a vehicle. It also makes theory a lot more interesting when you can apply it. To top it off it will make it very easy to analyze songs you already know - the only sometimes tricky part is identifying the root note / tonic of a song, occasionally it is not clear.

At risk of rambling I find this method also makes it very easy to "borrow" chords or apply modal mixture, since all you have to do is modify a single scale degree to create something interesting or unexpected, or pivot.


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## Drew (Sep 29, 2022)

sacguy71 said:


> true but everyone needs to work on technique even the masters


So, if they still have to work on it, what's the harm in your working on it? 

I think the single most useful thing a teacher can provide is an objective outside opinion. If he thinks, even though you've covered these before in the past, that there are weaknesses in your technique here, then that itself is valuable knowledge. Did he tell you what exactly is weak? The timing? Picking/fretting hand coordination? Note memorization? 

No harm in going back to the fundamentals every now and then if that's what helps you improve. I've been playing for damned near 30 years, and I STILL work on stuff like this.


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## sacguy71 (Sep 30, 2022)

I am good with practice daily for improve my chops not complain about that. After I learn modes, will learn new 7 string songs soon. Looking at Misha he uses similar technical scale stuff too:


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## AwakenTheSkies (Oct 1, 2022)




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