# FML - the Roter arrived.



## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

So it looks pretty cool. It plays awesome, the FF feels very natural. There are some minor inconsistencies and crooked bits, not all the frets are exactly where they should be, some saddles are not parallel to the others (you can see the gap between the A and the D saddle in the picture), the string retainer sits at an angle that has nothing to do with anything else on the guitar, but nothing people in the crowd will spot

...all in all, forgiveable. It's a mid-priced, semi-custom, handmade guitar from small shop in Poland, and that is what you get for your money. Fair is fair. 


But then this:







The pickup is at the completely wrong angle, the treble side is way too close to the saddles while the bass side is too far away - it looks stupid and it sounds weird. Less attack on the bass side, too much of it on the treble side. 

This error completely renders all of the sonic benefits that fanned frets give you - moot. You gain some definition by increasing the scale length, yet you lose it again because the pickup's not where it's supposed to be. And the looks! Literally everybody immediately asked why the pickup wasn't at the same angle as the bridge. I sent a message to Sebastian, let's see what he replies, but I'm guessing he'll say "we did it so it looks better" - aka "it's not a bug, it's a feature". 

Some of you know how many disappointments and broken promises I went through on the way to this guitar. To have it arrive and be practically useless to me because of one, ONE small fucking detail that could have been talked about for months...it just really breaks my heart.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 30, 2010)

Bummer man, sorry to hear about it.

EDIT: Can we have some more pics?


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 30, 2010)

sent you a pm, would love some details. i´m a customer too, so i wanna know what i could expect


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

I hope that people will understand my reluctance to post details at this point. In the Roter thread, people yelled "SLANDERER!!!" at anyone who didn't join the chants. So I am not going to risk getting neg-repped or banned for simply stating facts. I also want to give a chance to Sebastian to comment on the state of things before people start accusing me of badmouthing, which seems to happen rather quickly in this forum.

That doesn't mean you guys shouldn't share your opinion. Am I being an anal bitch who's just looking for something to critisize? Would you be okay with this "feature" if it were your guitar? Please discuss.


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## MaxOfMetal (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> I hope that people will understand my reluctance to post details at this point. In the Roter thread, people yelled "SLANDERER!!!" at anyone who didn't join the chants. So I am not going to risk getting neg-repped or banned for simply stating facts. I also want to give a chance to Sebastian to comment on the state of things before people start accusing me of badmouthing, which seems to happen rather quickly in this forum.
> 
> That doesn't mean you guys shouldn't share your opinion. Am I being an anal bitch who's just looking for something to critisize? Would you be okay with this "feature" if it were your guitar? Please discuss.



I'm not doing that at all, and don't plan on, jumping on you that is. 

Pictures speak far louder than words ever will.


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## Zeromancer (Apr 30, 2010)

Wow, that really sucks. Miscommunication between you and Sebastian maybe?


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## TomParenteau (Apr 30, 2010)

Sorry to hear, but thanks for an excellent report.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> I hope that people will understand my reluctance to post details at this point. In the Roter thread, people yelled "SLANDERER!!!" at anyone who didn't join the chants. So I am not going to risk getting neg-repped or banned for simply stating facts. I also want to give a chance to Sebastian to comment on the state of things before people start accusing me of badmouthing, which seems to happen rather quickly in this forum.
> 
> That doesn't mean you guys shouldn't share your opinion. Am I being an anal bitch who's just looking for something to critisize? Would you be okay with this "feature" if it were your guitar? Please discuss.



that´s kinda why i sent you the PM, and not asking you to detail it here 

frets being crooked is not forgivable, if true. saddles not being perfectly spaced doesn´t matter that much (seeing as it´s just that tiny tiny space there), but it´s not desirable.

the pickup being too shortly angled, and being too close to the bridge on the high end, is a silly mistake. it really looks like it should be wide enough to be angled identically to the bridge.

if anyone as much as criticises you for posting your customer experience on this, they´re stupid. reality is reality, no matter how much they like to think of the builder as god.

i´ve got a couple things to discuss, so reply to the pm i sent you, and we´ll get crackin´!


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## Lilarcor (Apr 30, 2010)

I can really feel you, dude. I'm considering getting one of these myself. 
Looking at the pic I can clearly see that the treble end of the pup is too near to the bridge. The bass end, however, is where it should be unless you ordered it to be very near to the bridge. It's about the same distance as it is on all my guitars. (you gotta measure the actual point where the string touches the saddle and not only the gap between bridge and pup)
Could you share your thoughts about the rest of the guitar apart from the obvious flaws? How is it sonically? How does it sound unplugged? String action, neck thickness...


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## Esp Griffyn (Apr 30, 2010)

I wouldn't say it slander at all. That infamous Sherman thread was was simply based on "Here is my Sherman, I am not happy with the build or the customer service" and "Man that sucks, I agree that you have been screwed".

Same case here man, thats a pretty major gaff on the guitar. It looks crap and I'm not surprised it sounds crap. I'd be pissed too!


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## 13point9 (Apr 30, 2010)

such a shame I really hope this gets sorted

and id hope/ expect better than people lynching you for just mentioning an error with a guitar heh


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## Jeepers (Apr 30, 2010)

Ah sorry to hear that
its strange though that yours is like that when in pictures of the other guitars, the pick up looks to be at the right angle...

To be fair, sebastian has been good in getting the pick ups rewound and re-doing the seven string fretboards, and he said himself that no guitar will leave the shop with any faults. So hopefully this one just slipped through and he will be able to sort it out


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## technomancer (Apr 30, 2010)

Seriously, posting what's wrong with the guitar WITH PICTURES can hardly be called slander  Also fret placement being off nd saddles being mounted crooked is NOT an acceptable problem in any way, shape, or form in a guitar that costs more than $100


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## Kayzer (Apr 30, 2010)

I really hope you can work something out with Roter and so far thanks for sharing this honest review!


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## PnKnG (Apr 30, 2010)

sucks to see and hear that your guitar got a bit screwed up.
Cause we have seen others done right:





Hope you and Sebastian can figure out something together to make things better.
Best option would be to get it shipped back and fixed.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 30, 2010)

technomancer said:


> Seriously, posting what's wrong with the guitar WITH PICTURES can hardly be called slander  Also fret placement being off nd saddles being mounted crooked is NOT an acceptable problem in any way, shape, or form in a guitar that costs more than $100





As someone who got neg repped and dogpiled in the Roter thread for calling out fret placement, I was worried something like this might happen. Crooked frets and saddle plates is integral to the guitar feeling and playing consistently and in tune, and having these things be problematic is not something you'd even see on a $100 Squier these days, let alone something you spent $1k on.

Honestly, the treble side is too close to the bridge (in my opinion) and the bass side is a little bit too far. Aesthetically it strikes me as more damning than sonically, but I haven't played the thing.

Also, feel free to post pictures of issues; at the very least, you will be letting others know exactly what to look out for in their own instruments, and any jackass who bitches or complains about that is hardly being fair.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Edit: Also, the pickup is 3mm out of center (on the photo, it's too far to the left). You can see it if you compare the top left corner of the pickup with the bottom right corner, where the EMG logo is.

There's no way of fixing it, really. If you do a second rout at the correct angle, you have to fill the part where the old route was - and that will be visible more than the bad placement in itself. 

Really the only way would be a replacement body. 
If I could get an unfinished replacement body where the routes have been done correctly, I would do the transfer, including wiring, bridge mounting (would also fix the crooked bridges) all by myself. That would be the quickest and cheapest option for both sides. I would even be okay with shipping the original body back to Roter, if they want it. Otherwise, I'll give it away on the forum to anyone who is willing to pay for shipment.

Do you think that's a fair proposal?


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## Jeepers (Apr 30, 2010)

Sounds very fair to me
Thats the least that should be done


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> There's no way of fixing it, really. If you do a second rout at the correct angle, you have to fill the part where the old route was - and that will be visible more than the bad placement in itself.
> 
> Really the only way would be a replacement body.
> If I could get an unfinished replacement body where the routes have been done correctly, I would do the transfer, including wiring, bridge mounting (would also fix the crooked bridges) all by myself. That would be the quickest and cheapest option for both sides. I would even be okay with shipping the original body back to Roter, if they want it. Otherwise, I'll give it away on the forum to anyone who is willing to pay for shipment.
> ...



i´ve already decided what i´m going to do if my FF 8 string comes out messed up. check your pm, as i don´t want to discuss it here unless it actually happens.


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## Demeyes (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm guessing your problem with the pickup won't be on the rest of the guitars with the stock pups. They might have had some reason to slant the EMG differently, but they should have ok'd it with you first because it really looks off.


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## budda (Apr 30, 2010)

semi-custom is LESS of an excuse for any imperfections, not more. If I can get quite good fretwork on a $300 guitar, I'm going to expect top of the line on anything over say $1000.

Sorry to hear about your problems with the build


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## budda (Apr 30, 2010)

Demeyes said:


> I'm guessing your problem with the pickup won't be on the rest of the guitars with the stock pups. They might have had some reason to slant the EMG differently, but they should have ok'd it with you first because it really looks off.



what reason? everything needs to line up, and on this guitar it doesn't. on a hand-built guitar, that's just unacceptable.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 30, 2010)

When you pay extra for "hand-built" you want the hand-building to mean that there is EXTRA attention paid to the details, rather than having it bring in the prospect of 'human error.'

I'm sorry, I don't care who you are, $1000 is a LOT of money. I could live off of $1000 in food for a long time, or pay two or three months' rent with that. I'd want to get my money's worth.

Even the Agile Pendulum, which has the opposite pickup slanting issue as yours, looks to have better fit, finish, and build quality with frets where they're supposed to be and a pickup centered on the (straight) bridge. Granted, I've played neither instrument, but $1000 is a lot of money to spend on something that doesn't do what it is supposed to, and I'm fairly sure that Roter doesn't make enough money on these to spend the required time and effort on them.


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## MF_Kitten (Apr 30, 2010)

i just checked the EMG 7 string pickup specs from their site, and looking at it, your pickup could have easily been slanted all the way without the bar magnets being off or anything like that.

here´s what might have gone down: they could have measured up the correct fan, but for the wrong number of strings!

maybe they went on to do this body´s pickup after they did a bunch of 8 strings or something, and they mistakenly used the same angle measurements or something. the same fan amount on an 8 or 9 string would have a much less extreme angle than on a 7 string.


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## budda (Apr 30, 2010)

Then that's still a huge mistake.


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## Soopahmahn (Apr 30, 2010)

MF_Kitten said:


> i´ve already decided what i´m going to do if my FF 8 string comes out messed up. check your pm, as i don´t want to discuss it here unless it actually happens.



Invade Poland?  "We were invited, punch was served..."

Sorry, I'll admit freely that I have little to contribute here other than a touch of levity and my opinion that the pickup angle you show shouldn't have a _massive _impact on the tone, although I agree you won't be getting the same bright overtones from the bass side as you are the treble side. What does it sound like to you? Perhaps if you raised the bass side/dropped the treble side and then reduced the bass at your amplifier, you'd get more harmonic balance without too much bloat?

Aesthetically, I can't believe that was shipped, and I would be returning that body for sure. That's not even "edgy" off-kilter, it's just sloppy and weird.

I'll be watching, silently, from here on out.


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## El Caco (Apr 30, 2010)

TBH I am expecting this to be the first of many complaints, I was really hoping that after all this time they would be good but deep down I just know, you know?

I believe that you guys should be able to speak your mind and give an honest impression of your guitar either in a dedicated thread or in the Roter thread, if people neg you just let me know and they can have some time off.

That said keep it civil and give Sebastian a chance to make it right. In Lethe's case I can understand how pissed he would be, his case is especially fucked. Misplaced frets after pointing them out and waiting longer is another thing that IMO is pretty unacceptable but that's just my opinion, I'm just saying you should be civil but I understand that some things are just too hard to accept.



PnKnG said:


> sucks to see and hear that your guitar got a bit screwed up.
> Cause we have seen others done right:
> 
> 
> ...



The 21st fret is still out in that one, try again.


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## technomancer (Apr 30, 2010)

s7eve said:


> The 21st fret is still out in that one, try again.



Good to see it wasn't just my eyes being wacky


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 30, 2010)

technomancer said:


> Good to see it wasn't just my eyes being wacky



Okay, good, I was wondering too ever since that picture was posted, but no one else commented when I asked.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

Sorry, but I'm tired to hear all this all the time
- his neck is 100% new, nothing was rebuild, everything was done as new
- string retainer does nothing and it's wrong placed?? - check the picture
- frets are again wrong - template is new, impossible
- angle of the pickup - it is 808 and can't be slanted more, cause we would have strings past blade magnets inside, if we could use 45DC it could be slanted more - so what's wrong with that??

you know I understand that customer wanted something I could not deliver or something but saying in public thread that I will answer - "we did it for look", before I even answered him, it's something I wasn't expecting from him, so if we all want our private message to be available to the public - why not, I will answer Lethe by thread, not by PM


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

MF_Kitten said:


> i just checked the EMG 7 string pickup specs from their site, and looking at it, your pickup could have easily been slanted all the way without the bar magnets being off or anything like that.



Sebastian said in the beginning that the 707 would not be wide enough to slant, so I went with an 808. Now he PM'd me and said he had no choice, the 808 was also too narrow so he couldn't slant it all the way. I guess that means he doesn't see any problem, but he should have told me before doing the route, so that I can decide what to do or look for another pickup that fits the bill. He even wrote in this PM that some EMG bass pickups would have worked perfectly...why not ask me before then? 

This is a difficult topic, we must keep in mind that *all* of the string must be under the bar magnet, and if you slant it you quickly start losing width. That said, I can't find a description that specifies how wide the 808 magnet is. Does anybody know? 

I really think that it should be possible to have the 808 slanted all the way without the low A and high E sounding "off", even if it means pushing EMG's suggested max. string spacing by a little.


EDIT:

To answer the questions Sebastian raised:

- I apologize for assuming what your answer would be. I'm enraged and I'm doing my best to keep emotions out and trying to find a civil manner of dealing with this issue. It's just that from what I've read and seen so far, this is how I expected you to react. I see now that you had kind of a reason, but still you should have talked to me about it instead of making some weird compromise all by yourself.

- Fret 21 is closer to fret 22 than it should be. Across all strings, the pitch comes up slightly sharp, then slightly flat one fret over. Fret 7 is also wrong, too close to fret 8 and at the wrong angle. At least the issue with fret 21 is visible on the 8-string too and it's definitely wrong but like I said, I would be okay with this. Let's not act like I'm making a big stink out of this.

- String retainer is angled more vertically than nut or first fret - that angle just doesn't make sense to me. Again, I said I would accept this.

- The top string is very close to the edge of the fret. I have to be really careful not to have it slip off the fretboard when fretting, there is less than a millimeter between the string and the rounded edge. I will try to compensate for this, but none of my other guitars are like this. The treble side is okay, though.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Apr 30, 2010)

That's a shame, I was ready to hop on and order one myself


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## drmosh (Apr 30, 2010)

Stealthtastic said:


> That's a shame, I was ready to hop on and order one myself



lets wait and see how the others turn out, with the different pickups.


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## 13point9 (Apr 30, 2010)

drmosh said:


> lets wait and see how the others turn out, with the different pickups.



this. seems to just be a logistical issue with the EMG's for the most part...


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## The Echthros (Apr 30, 2010)

Even at 1k you guys can't expect perfection: look at all the MIK and MII guitar out there going for that that have less than perfect specs.

Also, it appears with better pics from Seb that had he angled it more it truly would have been outside the the blades in the pickup. The only solution to avoid that treble peak on the treble side would have been to move the pickup away from the bridge more...but then you guys would have complained about it the same way it was complained about with the Pendulum- "The bass side is too far away...it's gonna sound like a middle pickup."

Biggest problem is those who purchased and contributed to this thread built the instrument up past what could be delivered. Everybody will probably be dissapointed when they arrive. Seen the same thing happen then the intrepids finally shipped. 

Seb seems to be a proffessional, I'm sure he'll remedy it or make things right. Give the man a chance before breathing a collective sigh of discontent fellas.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

sorry, but this must be some kind of joke 
- I just can understand almost everything, but if you are trying to tell me that frets are bad now more in one place, it's just too much for me this time, use some time and setup guitar well and then we can speak about tuning problems
- string retainer is wrong cause you don't like the angle we installed it and it doesn't make any sense to you, what argument is that, so if I don't like the the color of other guitar it is also bad??

I don't like the whole idea of telling that you don't like something and it's wrong cause it's not following your ideas and sense of beauty, but you are so kind that you can accept that


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## Customisbetter (Apr 30, 2010)

Looks fine to me. But i am not holding the guitar.


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## alexmurphy (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm thinking that maybe they made a guitar that ended up like shit, then they re-made one that was better and fixed up...before sending you the first one instead of the second

not saying that's what happened, but it's a possibility.

edit - did that really deserve neg rep? the comment made me laugh a bit, but still, 2 posts down i correct myself...


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## lefty robb (Apr 30, 2010)

alexmurphy said:


> I'm thinking that maybe they made a guitar that ended up like shit, then they re-made one that was better and fixed up...before sending you the first one instead of the second
> 
> not saying that's what happened, but it's a possibility.


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## alexmurphy (Apr 30, 2010)

lefty robb said:


>



 just forget it....i read the rest of the thread after posting that


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## Demeyes (Apr 30, 2010)

alexmurphy said:


> I'm thinking that maybe they made a guitar that ended up like shit, then they re-made one that was better and fixed up...before sending you the first one instead of the second
> 
> not saying that's what happened, but it's a possibility.


I'm pretty sure they would have taken the hardware off the faulty neck, they probably used the same body as there wasn't any problem with the bodies. So I'd say it's unlikely that happened.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

please back to the topic please 

fretboards were bad, cause we had wrong template, we first wanted to replace the fretboards only, but we did new necks and new fretboards and new frets and new everything we had to to all guitars that had wrong fretboards - I hope it is right explanation


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Measured at the bass side:

Distance between fret 4 and fret 5: 2.7 cm
Distance between fret 5 and fret 6: 2.4 cm
Distance between fret 6 and fret 7: 2.5 cm
Distance between fret 7 and fret 8: 2.1 cm

It's hard to get good measurements on the fret 21 situation with a ruler, so I will not post them, but at the treble side, the distance between fret 21 and 22 is smaller than the distance between fret 22 and 23.

Please tell me how a proper guitar setup will fix that. 

Also the two crooked bridges are hardly something that collides with my personal tastes, between the A and D bridges there's a gap of a millimeter while the other bridges are touching.

In all seriousness, please accept that I send this guitar back to you and give me my money back.


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## sPliNtEr_777 (Apr 30, 2010)

interesting topic. Ive always kinda felt roter to be a bit hit and miss for me personally, I havent played one but they certainly make some uber hot fanned fret guitars. 

With regards to the string retainer or that tiny gap between the saddles I just think "get real". Whats wrong with the string retainer? looks fine to me...  in this respect I agree with Sebastien.

However, an 808 would EASILY slant to that angle no matter what anyone says. Regarding the frets, I think its fair enough that they can go wrong when a guitar is made by hand, humans make mistakes afterall , but perhaps QC should have alerted sebastien to this issue and the dodgy neck should not have got out to the customer, just my 

In my opinion the multi-scale guitar is still a very new concept and luthiers are bound to make mistakes when building them, but if the mistakes are as obvious as are claimed in this thread, then maybe it shouldnt have got past QC....

BTW the back of the neck on that thing looks heavenly


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## Adam (Apr 30, 2010)

sPliNtEr_777 said:


> However, an 808 would EASILY slant to that angle no matter what anyone says.








This is the most you can angle them at and the owner didn't seem to have any issues sonically.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

I don't accept "ruler" measurements and your personal taste has nothing to do with guitar playability, we had a deal that guitar will be rebuild and if it won't reach your place before today we will give you your money back no matter what, guitar arrived and you just found some "problems" to have your money back anyway, I see it that way, cause if you would like to have "problems" repaired that open war will be not there. My opinion.



Adam said:


> This is the most you can angle them at and the owner didn't seem to have any issues sonically.



read the specs, EMG is saying directly what pickups can accept, I followed that, is that bad?? Looking at that Mike's guitar, you see any other possibility of pickups installation - I mean smaller angle??


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

It does. I mean, don't get me wrong - this guitar looks absolutely stunning, and the finish is gorgeous - even perfect except for the things I pointed out. But those, all added up, are kind of significant. I hate the fact that I can't just keep it - I would love to own a guitar like this. But if the looks are spoiled, the sound is weird and the frets don't intonate properly, I can't really use it. Not even as a display, not with the pickup slanted like that.

And AGAIN:

I said the small things were something I could live with. Dont "get real" me for simply pointing them out. 

The crooked fret 7, which I noticed only after making my first post, is a biggie to me.


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## Customisbetter (Apr 30, 2010)

This thread should not be happening IMO. Everything here should be PMs.


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## Dyingsea (Apr 30, 2010)

sPliNtEr_777 said:


> In my opinion the multi-scale guitar is still a very new concept and luthiers are bound to make mistakes when building them


 
Not to take this another direction but I wouldn't take that as a proper explaination for anything. Buying a "prototype" guitar is one thing. It's another if a luthier has no lines between a test environment and custom/production. They shouldn't be building them if they can't make it right. Fanned frets have been around a while. Conklin, Novax, Klein, Saul Koll and others don't seem to have much problem.

None of this is meant to insinuate anything towards Roter, just my thoughts on your post.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> I don't accept "ruler" measurements and your personal taste has nothing to do with guitar playability, we had a deal that guitar will be rebuild and if it won't reach your place before today we will give you your money back no matter what, guitar arrived and you just found some "problems" to have your money back anyway, I see it that way, cause if you would like to have "problems" repaired that open war will be not there. My opinion.



Ok, Sebastian doesn't accept my measurement. How do we proceed? Can anyone suggest an objective way of proving that the frets are definitely wrong in at least 2 places?


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## Adam (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> read the specs, EMG is saying directly what pickups can accept, I followed that, is that bad?? Looking at that Mike's guitar, you see any other possibility of pickups installation - I mean smaller angle??



Those are the 808's and he could have gone with a slightly smaller angle but the lowest string its still being picked up by the bottom bar, so it works. Like stated there were no issues with its sound even though it looks like the bottom bars of both pickups are not underneath the string.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> This thread should not be happening IMO. Everything here should be PMs.



I don't think that at all, because every day someone could be placing an order for one of these. I would feel obligated to let people know.


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## whosdealin (Apr 30, 2010)

Wow what surprises me in this thread is the tone of the builders responses. I think a big problem is that some guys forget that to have a successful business you have to humor the customer even if you feel they are wrong. 

The customer brings up valid issues it seems. I am also surprised the builder is saying to have the guitar set up before judging the fret distance. Shouldnt the guitar have been setup well before leaving the shop. I realize things can change a bit once the guitar goes through shipping but I dunno it should still be pretty on if the setup was done properly.


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## Snytbaggen (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> Ok, Sebastian doesn't accept my measurement. How do we proceed? Can anyone suggest an objective way of proving that the frets are definitely wrong in at least 2 places?



A caliper with individual pics for every fret?


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I don't think that at all, because every day someone could be placing an order for one of these. I would feel obligated to let people know.





Some of this can be handled by PM, but people were clamoring for an initial review of these Roters like crazy, and I know many more were waiting for initial reviews in order to place an order. 

Now that there are issues, we have an opportunity for Sebastian to prove his dedication to customer service publicly.

Also, I know Sebastian is annoyed because he and Lethe came to an agreement that his guitar would be at his house at a certain time or he would get his money back; however, this is why I constantly rail against pressuring luthiers for time. You want your guitar done right, after all.

I will post these links to Darren's excellent essay on why custom guitars cost what they do again, for emphasis:
http://decibelguitars.com/why-guitars-cost-what-they-do-part-i/
http://decibelguitars.com/why-guitars-cost-what-they-do-part-ii/


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I don't think that at all, because every day someone could be placing an order for one of these. I would feel obligated to let people know.



Thank you. I am really trying my best to keep an objective view on things, and I only say what I can prove. I have no intention of pulling the name of Sebastian or Roter Custom Guitars into the mud. If he accepts the guitar back and refunds my money, I will not comment on Roter on this forum (or on other internet forums) again. Promise.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

whosdealin said:


> Wow what surprises me in this thread is the tone of the builders responses. I think a big problem is that some guys forget that to have a successful business you have to humor the customer even if you feel they are wrong.
> 
> The customer brings up valid issues it seems. I am also surprised the builder is saying to have the guitar set up before judging the fret distance. Shouldnt the guitar have been setup well before leaving the shop. I realize things can change a bit once the guitar goes through shipping but I dunno it should still be pretty on if the setup was done properly.




Not only that, he posted a picture. You can fucking *see* that it's out. I am pretty disappointed by Apophis' responses as well.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I don't think that at all, because every day someone could be placing an order for one of these. I would feel obligated to let people know.





I feel the same, but I want separate "problems" from problems, cause this thread is just like many before, one customer with some problems and 100 another people with another "news"


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> I feel the same, but I want separate "problems" from problems, cause this thread is just like many before, one customer with some problems and 100 another people with another "news"



You basically just told him he was lying to you in your previous posts dude...he has valid concerns, and posted pictures, and it's pretty obvious by the picture.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

you see 1mm problem on few centimeters picture, you must be a magician

Lethe is not happy, he see many problems, so I can accept that ass guarantee reclamation, we are a company like any other so we have to accept that, he can send the guitar back, but if we will see no problems there guitar will be send back to him without any possibility of money back


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## Leon (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I don't think that at all, because every day someone could be placing an order for one of these. I would feel obligated to let people know.





This is the purpose of a forum.

Also OP, sorry about the polished turd. Good to see Apophis is going to get your money back to you


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> you see 1mm problem on few centimeters picture, you must be a magician
> 
> Lethe is not happy, he see many problems, so I can accept that ass guarantee reclamation, we are a company like any other so we have to accept that, he can send the guitar back, but if we will see no problems there guitar will be send back to him without any possibility of money back




Your sarcasm and combative attitude isn't helping potential customers who may see this. Were the people who spotted your first issues with the 7 string "magicians"?

Maybe it's an optical illusion, but to me it does look like what he's saying is true. Anyone else seeing this?


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## Leon (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> you see 1mm problem on few centimeters picture, you must be a magician
> 
> Lethe is not happy, he see many problems, so I can accept that ass guarantee reclamation, we are a company like any other so we have to accept that, he can send the guitar back, but if we will see no problems there guitar will be send back to him without any possibility of money back



Since both parties are biased (OP wants a guitar worth his money, you want the OP's money), I think you ought to have a 3rd party intervene.


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## Leon (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Your sarcasm and combative attitude isn't helping potential customers who may see this.



It's helping me save money. Does that count?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Leon said:


> It's helping me save money. Does that count?



I guess


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

I'm not saying that every single one of these guitars should be perfect, everyone fucks up at some point (except me), but it's how you treat the customer and deal with the problem that defines your reputation.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Your sarcasm and combative attitude isn't helping potential customers who may see this. Were the people who spotted your first issues with the 7 string "magicians"?
> 
> Maybe it's an optical illusion, but to me it does look like what he's saying is true. Anyone else seeing this?



what can you expect from me 
I'm not here for making money, I wanted to make something for SS.org users for what I need trust and clear situations, Lethe started open war before when he had even no response from me, you wanted me to say I'm wrong and he's right when I'm sure that those problems are not there - besides that saddles gap. I told him public the solution of that situation and that is clear for me. 

You know, first fretboards were wrong, we had bad template and we did not checked it, we ordered another and you want users off SS.org believe that after first our mistake we will do the same another time 



JJ Rodriguez said:


> I'm not saying that every single one of these guitars should be perfect, everyone fucks up at some point (except me), but it's how you treat the customer and deal with the problem that defines your reputation.



you are right, but did he wait for my response?? he send me one PM and that's it, he wanted public discussion, he have it, I have nothing to hide, we are here so many years (both from 2005) that it won't work here, don't you think?? We had problems in the past, we always had solutions for that to make customer happy, sometimes it cost us more than guitar itself, I never said anything against anyone here without reason, people are saying that my customer service is more than good, so I won't loose it because one customer wants more than I can give, if there will be problems, we will have space for discussion, he wants his money back when we fulfilled our deal.


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I'm not saying that every single one of these guitars should be perfect, everyone fucks up at some point (except me), but it's how you treat the customer and deal with the problem that defines your reputation.



And honestly fret alignment, bridge placement, and other things like that are a REQUIREMENT for a successful, playable, usable electric guitar at ANY price point. 

Disagreement over pickup slant shrug or the angle of the string retainer bar nuts is secondary to these basic concerns.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> what can you expect from me



I don't expect anything from you, I'm not your customer, Lethe is.

Am I the only one that thinks that the pictures of the frets he posted looks out? Look at the bass side from 4-5, then 5-6, then 6-7. Do the gaps not look off?

That wouldn't be something he could do to the guitar to get his money back.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> And honestly fret alignment, bridge placement, and other things are a REQUIREMENT for a successful, playable, usable electric guitar at ANY price point.
> 
> Disagreement over pickup slant shrug or the angle of the string retainer bar nuts is secondary to these basic concerns.



Well, that too, I'm just saying that even if he sent out a fucked up guitar, it's how he treats Lethe (which looks to be pretty shitty, in a public thread no less) is how people will define his company.

Rondo sends out fucked up instruments all the time, but does anyone really shit talk them? No, they love them because Kurt just takes it back, no questions asked, and either refunds or replaces.

I GUARANTEE Kurt puts up with way more bullshit and has way more problem customers than Roter, but his service still kicks ass. Even if I don't own an Agile, you have to respect the man and his company, he stands by his shit.


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## technomancer (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I don't think that at all, because every day someone could be placing an order for one of these. I would feel obligated to let people know.



+1  You should have probably talked to Rotor first before starting a thread, but knowing there were problems and how they were resolved definitely should not be treated as a secret, especially for something that is as high-profile as these Rotors.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> you are right, but did he wait for my response?? he send me one PM and that's it, he wanted public discussion, he have it, I have nothing to hide, we are here so many years (both from 2005) that it won't work here, don't you think?? We had problems in the past, we always had solutions for that to make customer happy, sometimes it cost us more than guitar itself, I never said anything against anyone here without reason, people are saying that my customer service is more than good, so I won't loose it because one customer wants more than I can give, if there will be problems, we will have space for discussion, he wants his money back when we fulfilled our deal.



Sorry for triple post 

I would post it publicly too, because there are a lot of people waiting on these, and a lot of people could potentially be buying them.

I'm not saying your customer service hasn't been good in the past, but to publicly call a paying customer of yours a liar is NOT good. Ever. He didn't shit talk you personally in this thread, so I think it's in poor taste that you didn't extend him the same courtesy. Saying he's inventing issues to get his money back after he posts pictures is quite insulting.



And again, am I the only one who thinks they can spot the fret issue?


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## TemjinStrife (Apr 30, 2010)

I can see it, along with at least one issue on the 8-string posted above.


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## technomancer (Apr 30, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> I can see it, along with at least one issue on the 8-string posted above.



looking closely you can see the fret is off on his guitar... not even examining the 8 since that's not at issue.

Apophis: the guy did jump the gun posting a thread before talking to you, but basically calling him a liar when he's already posted pics that show at least two issues with the guitar that there is no excuse for (crooked bridge saddle and crooked fret) is REALLY not helping your business cred


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## HamBungler (Apr 30, 2010)

^ I see it too, and saying its a problem 'invented' by the customer and can be easily solved is horrible customer service. "The customer is always right," is a commonplace customer service policy and for very good reason. Not everyone is going to be happy with your products, and some will be more vocal about it than others. Showing you can beat through that sorta shit shows that you stand by your product and are willing to go above and beyond to really get what the customer wants.

For the fret issue, Sebastian, you should very well know that if the fret is off even by a small amount this can create horrible intonation issues. Even if you get those frets to sound 'right' the rest will all be out of tune, its not an easily fixable problem. Its possible you put in another bad template and should have checked to make absolutely sure that it was set up for proper spacing before you started putting out instruments. You ALWAYS double check, because problems like this can end up costing you a lot in both customer trust and returns you might have to conduct because of this sort of error.


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## PnKnG (Apr 30, 2010)

I have to through myself on Sebastians side here.
I think Lethe went way to soon out with it and because of that caused that the talk between the 2 went way too emotional between the two.
He should either waited for Sebastian to reply and for the two to get an agreement on further actions with the problem that the 2 have
OR
Just had posted that he got the guitar, that there are some problems with it and some photos and after that should have waited with further details about it until the problem was solved.
He went out with too many details way too soon and now we got the mess.
Both are angry and now shit starts to hit the fan.

I'm not going to attack anyone directly but I also hate to see already some people on here that are already basing their whole opinion on that this one specific guitar has been done wrong without waiting for any of the other guitars to arrive before forming an opinion. Another problem I have is that there are some posts on here that really don't help to solve the problem but instead just add fuel to the fire between Lethe and Sebastian/Roter.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Who is at war here? I am definitely not.

All I did was point out there were some minor and two major problems, and I made sure to point out that you have not yet had the chance to reply. I am not dragging out some shared secret, this is an open discussion about whether this guitar is built to "made in korea" standard or not. In many aspects, it meets or exceeds this standard, but crooked frets are definitely nothing we should have to discuss.

Before I noted the crooked fret 7, I would have been okay with a body replacement, it's not my fault that you told me the 808 would be ok and didn't inform me that it wasn't. 

But seeing how the frets have obvious problems even after you had to redo them once because the template was wrong...

See it from my perspective.

You have made promises you did not keep. With delays, with features, with quality check. And you're treating me...unfavorably... because I'm pointing that out. 

All I want is that you make a proposal on how you would fix these three things:

1. crooked frets
2. crooked/out of center pickup
3. crooked bridges


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## playstopause (Apr 30, 2010)

Congrats


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## Customisbetter (Apr 30, 2010)

playstopause said:


> Congrats


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

PnKnG said:


> I have to through myself on Sebastians side here.
> I think Lethe went way to soon out with it and because of that caused that the talk between the 2 went way too emotional between the two.
> He should either waited for Sebastian to reply and for the two to get an agreement on further actions with the problem that the 2 have
> OR
> ...



The issues are glaring though, and like I said, I would feel obligated to let people know, because these are produced in bulk, so there's a 99% chance that any neck that was made as part of the batch his was in is also out.

Also, flat out calling your customer a liar is bullshit. There is no excuse. That's what the biggest issue is here, is Apophis calling this dude a liar and saying he's inventing shit to get his money back. That's not cool, no matter how you look at it.

Apophis put out a product, and if it wasn't checked close enough and got sent out, Lethe is NOT obligated to keep it quiet and let him know that his template is wrong, that's not his job. He is not currently employed as a QC guy for Roter.

It is Apophis's job as a salesman however to satisfy his customer, and keep him happy, or calm him down and at least set it right. I've worked sales, and I have NEVER called a customer a liar. I have basically said "I'm sorry, I can't really help you" and they've walked away disappointed, but you do not start flinging shit, even if you want to.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

I had to laugh at that one too.


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## djpharoah (Apr 30, 2010)

I would have personally gone to Apophis first and _WAITED_ for a reply before going public with something like this.


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## PnKnG (Apr 30, 2010)

djpharoah said:


> I would have personally gone to Apophis first and _WAITED_ for a reply before going public with something like this.



+1

Same here. Thats my opinion too.

By going public too soon it ended up getting way too much emotion involved and the name calling started.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

That might have been the polite thing to do, but like I said, Lethe isn't obligated to be nice to Apophis, but Apophis should feel some kind of obligation to be at least civil to Lethe since he's a paying customer.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

EDIT: When was I not civil and respectful?

Please, let's not dispute whether doing it publicly is the way to go or not. Both Apophis and I feel like we have nothing to hide, so the medium we use for sorting out our situation should not have an effect on the outcome. I am sure that everything Sebastian would do for me if we discussed privately would be the same as if we discussed publicly.

Let's focus on finding a good solution to fix the three problems the guitar has.


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## Joel (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> That might have been the polite thing to do, but like I said, Lethe isn't obligated to be nice to Apophis, but Apophis should feel some kind of obligation to be at least civil to Lethe since he's a paying customer.


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## drmosh (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> EDIT: When was I not civil and respectful?



People on this forum are so quick to call out others about not being respectful, or slagging off others etc. especially when dealing with builders. I don't know what they read into your posts, but I have seen no such tone in your posts.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Dude, I'm not saying you weren't, I'm just pointing out the difference in how a customer and a business should act.

The only thing that could be said against you is posting it publicly and pointing out the flaws too quickly....which I would have done in your position as well. Don't sweat it.


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## Randy (Apr 30, 2010)

The guy had legitimate problems with his guitar and thankfully they made it to the surface. From here, it should be between the two of them. We've all seen the pictures, so anybody interested knows that they may want to reconsider things, depending on how they're handled. The rest of the discussion (especially about personalities) is moot. Apophis is NOT the first, second, or third builder on this forum to get snippy when faced with issues on his instrument. Some of us need to stop acting like that's the case... you know who you are.

That said, considering who the most vocal components in this thread are, it's hard for the extra bullshit (meaning, aside from the discussion between Lethe and Apophis)not feel like it is just vindication for the Sherman thread.


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## Drew (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> I hope that people will understand my reluctance to post details at this point. In the Roter thread, people yelled "SLANDERER!!!" at anyone who didn't join the chants. So I am not going to risk getting neg-repped or banned for simply stating facts.



If that's a legitimate concern these days, this place really has gone to hell since I stopped posting. 

A few thoughts - while the more _polite_ course of action would have been for Lethe to send Sebastian a PM explaining his issues, I really don't know how this would have not eventually gone public anyway. Lethe's waiting for a guitar, it ends up getting rebuilt before shipping because of a template issue, Lethe's waiting for a guitar, it's shipped... And suddenly Lethe's back to waiting for a guitar. There are bound to be questions. Considering there was a fair amount of interest in these but people were waiting for a hands-on review first, a lot of people would want to know why it was sent back (for a rebuild OR a refund), and eventually it'd have come out anyway. So, considering his tone was about as polite as could be hoped for here, all things considered, I don't necessarily see it as a _huge_ deal. I'd probably have taken it to PM myself, but at the same time I can see why he didn't. 

The pickup... The biggest issue for me is the fact that the pickup is practically touching the saddle. Sure, bridge pickups slanted towards the treble side aren't exactly unheard of - it's a Strat thing - but if the customer was expecting a parallel pickup that's kind of an issue. More to the point, that's an EXTREMELY close pickup. Compare a Strat: 







Now, I don't have mine in front of me as I type this, but that (very) slanted singlecoil appears to come maybe the width of a volume knob away from the edge of the pickup - call it a little over 3/4 of an inch. That's a pretty extreme slant, and gives a very bright, stinging tone on the top couple strings, very edgy and a little Tele-like. The Roter? What, half a centimeter between the edge of the saddle and the pickup? Considering how quickly the volume of a vibrating string drops off as you get towards the bridge, that's a HUGE change in tone from string to string. 

This is over and above concerns about fretwork and everything else, and ignoring the fact that Sebastian came out swinging and accusing Lethe of lying to get a refund. I'd be a bit peeved if I got this in the mail too, as pretty as it otherwise looks.

Hey, maybe it's not my business anymore, but I think Lethe has some pretty legitimate concerns. I'd consider the fretwork being off a dealbreaker anyway, before you even consider the pickup positioning.


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## Drew (Apr 30, 2010)

Randy said:


> That said, considering who the most vocal components in this thread are, it's hard for the extra bullshit (meaning, aside from the discussion between Lethe and Apophis) is just vindication for the Sherman thread.



You're welcome to your opinion, but if Mike's ever sent out a guitar with major design issues, it's news to me, and the way Sebastian has chosen to handle this isn't doing him any favors.


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## Matt Crooks (Apr 30, 2010)

Congrats


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## Randy (Apr 30, 2010)

Drew said:


> You're welcome to your opinion, but if Mike's ever sent out a guitar with major design issues, it's news to me, and the way Sebastian has chosen to handle this isn't doing him any favors.



Major flaws or minor flaws in a guitar that you bought expecting to be perfect don't make a difference. Just as I felt in that thread, I feel in this one. Get it out in the open so potential buyers know ("buyer beware") and then take care of the business end of it between the builder and the customer, and then report back. Done and done. 


EDIT: I didn't support "dogpiling" in that thread, and I don't support it in this one either. I thought your post above was very informative and it's appreciated, but the delegating between people_ not_ involved in the project and people who are is unnecessary.


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## noodles (Apr 30, 2010)

I have never seen a builder so combative on a pubic forum before, especially coming right out and attacking a customer. I predict that impacting the proverbial bottom line. Plus, I know that if I got a guitar, from a builder that has a sketchy reputation to being with, with a pickup placement as blatantly wrong as that, after it had to be rebuilt once, I'd make sure I'd let everyone know that I paid for a fucked up guitar, and rightfully so. I wouldn't want anyone else making the same mistake I did.


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## 8string (Apr 30, 2010)

noodles said:


> pubic forum
> proverbial bottom line
> fucked up


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## Swippity Swappity (Apr 30, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> This thread should not be happening IMO. Everything here should be PMs.





Customisbetter said:


> Looks fine to me. But i am not holding the guitar.



Both of these. This isn't the same as a guitar being fucked over and over or something, this was a one time thing that hadn't even been discussed yet. A thread made that complained about misunderstandings after P.M.s were traded seems fine, but this "rage" thread was a bit early IMO. Not completely unwarranted, mind you, just a bit early.

Aesthetically, it does look a bit funky, but if it played and sounded good this would be a much tamer situation. It seems like it would be fair to have your guitar rebuilt and Roter sell this one to someone else who could dig it, but I'm neither you nor the builder and don't understand / know all the fine details.

Good luck working this out, guys.

*Edit:* Also, any chance for sound clips? Not trying to stir any shit or anything, I'm just curious what it sounds like.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

It looks like Apophis has done the smart thing and stopped commenting publicly on it  I hope Lethe can get this shit worked out in PM's.

Still, I wouldn't want to see this thread die, or, if it must be locked, it should be linked to in the Roter fanned fret thread. People have a right to know about potential problems before they order.

Like I said before, these necks are made in batches, so more than likely, this problem will be on other fanned 7's unfortunately


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## technomancer (Apr 30, 2010)

noodles said:


> I have never seen a builder so combative on a pubic forum before, especially coming right out and attacking a customer. I predict that impacting the proverbial bottom line. Plus, I know that if I got a guitar, from a builder that has a sketchy reputation to being with, with a pickup placement as blatantly wrong as that, after it had to be rebuilt once, I'd make sure I'd let everyone know that I paid for a fucked up guitar, and rightfully so. I wouldn't want anyone else making the same mistake I did.



You clearly missed some posts on mg.org that were posted and later deleted  

That said, I had been considering one of these as a cheap way to try out fanned frets if the first batch turned out well. This thread has made me reconsider completely (not so much the flaws as the attitude in dealing with them). Hell even when I was dealing with Halo they admitted there was a fuckup and had no problem refunding my money and taking the guitar back. Anyways, I have nothing in this so I'm going to stay out of the thread after this. Lethe good luck getting this sorted out.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Okay, this is a proposal I am making to Sebastian:

To fix the issue, both a new neck and body would have to be built. 

I would say that without hardware, my guitar's neck and body would sell for about 200&#8364; with the issues they have. So I am willing to put a disposal of 200&#8364; into the hands of a third person from here, preferably a mod so that we both know he can be trusted.  The money will remain in his hands until the issue is resolved. 

Sebastian builds a new neck and body, without the hardware of course. Neck and body have all the routes needed for assembly, including pickup route (slanted, parallel to bridge, on center), neck route, string holes including brass tubes, ground wire canal to brige, electrics cavity, strap button pre-drillings, volume pot hole, and pickup jack route with channel to cavity. No need to pe-drill bridge screw holes or cavity cover holes. 

Sebastian sends me both, I install the hardware into the new guitar. I ship the old neck and body back to Sebastian along with 50&#8364;, a parting gift as a sign of good spirit.

The 200&#8364; go back to me (hopefully), if it all goes like this. If I turn out to screw Sebastian by not sending the neck and body back, Sebastian gets the 200&#8364; from the third party. 

This saves Sebastian the time for assembly and final setup, while we both have security. 

Is there anybody here who would agree to be that third person?


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## djpharoah (Apr 30, 2010)

While escrow might sound like a "good" idea I don't think any mod would want to do that


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## Soopahmahn (Apr 30, 2010)

Not a recommendation, just an idea.

https://www.escrow.com/index.asp

I'm out.


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## Ben.Last (Apr 30, 2010)

I was waiting for the first batch or 2 of these to go out before ordering one myself for the very reason that I wanted to make sure any... let's call them idiosyncrasies... were ironed out. Hell, I was planning on ordering a straight fretted version so the fret spacing... idiosyncrasy... wouldn't really even pop up. 

That being said, I'm not reconsidering whether or not Roter is going to get any of my hard earned cash. Not because of the issues but because of the incredibly rude response. I have seen this from another builder or 2 on here and I thought it was incredibly inappropriate then as well, so that doesn't change my opinion.

The idea that this shouldn't have been posted publicly is preposterous. Did anyone contact Ibanez before posting about the bridge on their rga8s popping out in their ngd's? Has every person whose gotten an Agile that had a qc issue contacted Kurt prior to posting about it? We see reviews posted every day on here; some more positive than others; has every person contacted the builder before posting any negative aspects? What good is a guitar discussion forum if people can't publicly post things that help others? If Sebastian makes this right, we'll all read about it and I'm sure that future customers will look at that effort on his part very positively.


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## Drew (Apr 30, 2010)

Randy said:


> EDIT: I didn't support "dogpiling" in that thread, and I don't support it in this one either. I thought your post above was very informative and it's appreciated, but the delegating between people_ not_ involved in the project and people who are is unnecessary.



Duly noted. However, a number of people's comments have led me to believe that they don't seem to think the bridge/pickup angle is anything more than a minor cosmetic issue (SOD being yet another example) - I just wanted to provide some perspective by comparing it to an "intentionally" slanted design, and point out how much closer the pickup comes to the saddle here than on a Strat. 

Lethe - I'd send proposals to Sebastian through PM rather than tossing them out here for our comment, as the best resolution is one where you two (and not us) are happiest. 

Lern2swim's comments on posting this publicly are also well taken. A number of Agiles have been sent back after buyers received them and posted publicly about why they decided not to keep them, and the way Kurt has handled every single one of them actually made me _more_ comfortable springing for a Texan7.


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## Swippity Swappity (Apr 30, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> The idea that this shouldn't have been posted publicly is preposterous. Did anyone contact Ibanez before posting about the bridge on their rga8s popping out in their ngd's? Has every person whose gotten an Agile that had a qc issue contacted Kurt prior to posting about it? We see reviews posted every day on here; some more positive than others; has every person contacted the builder before posting any negative aspects? What good is a guitar discussion forum if people can't publicly post things that help others? If Sebastian makes this right, we'll all read about it and I'm sure that future customers will look at that effort on his part very positively.



I can't help but agree with this, regardless of what I said earlier.

Although there is a personal kinda connection between builder and player, sometimes things do need to be said. Honestly, this could have looked really good on Sebastian's part had he handled it a bit more calmly. Keep in mind, however, that Sebastian feels proud of his work on these instruments and he was confident in a job well done. The criticisms of these instruments can feel like personal insults, even if they aren't meant that way. He did come off a bit rude, but this whole thing can still be made right relatively easily. I have a feeling that a little time and negotiation will repair this situation.
*
Edit:
* 


Drew said:


> Duly noted. However, a number of people's comments have led me to believe that they don't seem to think the bridge/pickup angle is anything more than a minor cosmetic issue (SOD being yet another example) - I just wanted to provide some perspective by comparing it to an "intentionally" slanted design, and point out how much closer the pickup comes to the saddle here than on a Strat.



I am, personally, aware that the pickup issue is more than just cosmetic, but I can see how it would appear otherwise.

I want to make one last point before I leave this whole thing alone completely (Although I'm not involved directly with either the guitar player or builder, I do like to put my perspective out there. I like to think that I'm a fair human being and only wish for these guys to be able to work this out. I hope that my objective opinion based on the information in this thread can help with that.). Statistically (LOLSTATISTICS. Sorry, I don't feel like finding my sources. Please Google that for me. ), a large number of things said on the web are misunderstood, so some things that may have come off as ignorant or mean spirited may have simply not been conveyed well in text.


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## PnKnG (Apr 30, 2010)

Once again there are way too many people just adding fuel to the fire instead of letting Lethe and Seb/Roter figuring it out on how they should deal with these issues.


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## Lucky Seven (Apr 30, 2010)

Unacceptable.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

PnKnG said:


> Once again there are way too many people just adding fuel to the fire instead of letting Lethe and Seb/Roter figuring it out on how they should deal with these issues.



It's a forum, we discuss things 

If Apophis can't keep his shit together over this then he should probably find another line of work that doesn't involve dealing with people, especially on DISCUSSION forums.

He has however bowed out of here apparently, which is probably good.


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## HighGain510 (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> Sorry, but I'm tired to hear all this all the time
> *- his neck is 100% new, nothing was rebuild, everything was done as new*
> - string retainer does nothing and it's wrong placed?? - check the picture
> *- frets are again wrong - template is new, impossible*
> - angle of the pickup - it is 808 and can't be slanted more, cause we would have strings past blade magnets inside, if we could use 45DC it could be slanted more - so what's wrong with that??



Frets could ABSOLUTELY be wrong again, just because you used a new template doesn't mean the template was correct or the cuts/placement were correct either. If his neck was rebuilt, but the template was faulty (if they gave you a bad template the first time and you used it without seeing any problem when you put frets on the first guitars, how are you so sure this one was correct? ) again you definitely could have done it incorrectly.



Apophis said:


> I don't accept "ruler" measurements



Did you measure before you slotted and fretted that board?  

Sorry dude but the OP has some very valid concerns and the way you're handling his issues (whether he posted publicly or not) is saying a lot about your character, it would be best to choose your words wisely before making more posts in this thread.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

I understand all criticism and almost everything said above, but one thing worries me.
People already agreed that I was rude and I should act different, but you already forgot what Lethe said in 1st post, not later in discussion, but first, before he even received any message/answer from me:



Lethe said:


> I sent a message to Sebastian, let's see what he replies, but I'm guessing he'll say "we did it so it looks better" - aka "it's not a bug, it's a feature".



what was that, it was respectful, he started with opinion I'm ignorant who will tell whatever and you want me not to overact?? Anyone ealier did something like that to any other builder before, it was personal insult, it had nothing to do with quality or guitar itself, don't you think??


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Doesn't matter. You're a vendor. I work in IT and deal with people telling me shit all day long, 90% of the time they're wrong. I don't tell them or I wouldn't have a job very long.


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## orb451 (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> I understand all criticism and almost everything said above, but one thing worries me.
> People already agreed that I was rude and I should act different, but you already forgot what Lethe said in 1st post, not later in discussion, but first, before he even received any message/answer from me:
> 
> 
> ...



Just my .02, is that maybe your first response on the boards should have been something along the lines of "you think the guitar's wrong in some ways, how can I make it right?"

In other words, let your perceived insult slide for the time being and service the customer.

Just my opinion though... Best of luck to all involved!


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Could we please focus on what we can do to solve this?


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

I gave you answer many posts before - you have right to send the guitar back to us just like any other customer in world. We will check it as normal guarantee procedure, if there will be problems that can be solved, it will be done, if not, money will be send back to you.




JJ Rodriguez said:


> Doesn't matter. You're a vendor. I work in IT and deal with people telling me shit all day long, 90% of the time they're wrong. I don't tell them or I wouldn't have a job very long.



they are telling this to you on open forum that all other employees hear that and comments that?? I don't think so ...
You are still missing my point ...
My first answer was just like any other answer I did in the past, but problem was not solved as you know and war went further ...


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## Krullnar (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> what was that, it was respectful, he started with opinion I'm ignorant who will tell whatever and you want me not to overact?? Anyone ealier did something like that to any other builder before, it was personal insult, it had nothing to do with quality or guitar itself, don't you think??



Agreed, that was a shot across the bow. You have a point.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> they are telling this to you on open forum that all other employees hear that and comments that?? I don't think so ...
> You are still missing my point ...



Yes, it's called being in their office and having other employees around.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

we can give arguments like that all day and night and go nowhere ...

for me it was personal insult and that is why I acted like that, problems with our guitars were in the past and NEVER ended like this before ...


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## Cheesebuiscut (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> Could we please focus on what we can do to solve this?





Apophis said:


> I gave you answer many posts before - you have right to send the guitar back to us just like any other customer in world. We will check it as normal guarantee procedure, if there will be problems that can be solved, it will be done, if not, money will be send back to you.




Nuff said imo. Rest of the posts from everyone are probably going to be futile and just cause more problems.



Seb I would say check the template again, if they messed it up the first time it is possible they messed it up a second time as well. I'm hoping all the bugs for these get worked out by the time I have money for one as I still have faith in these for the moment.


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## Ben.Last (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> I understand all criticism and almost everything said above, but one thing worries me.
> People already agreed that I was rude and I should act different, but you already forgot what Lethe said in 1st post, not later in discussion, but first, before he even received any message/answer from me:
> 
> 
> ...



He wasn't calling you ignorant, he was assuming that you'd tell him there was no problem... which is exactly what you then went about doing.

And, yes, I have seen assumptions like these made publicly about builders on the board numerous times.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> we can give arguments like that all day and night and go nowhere ...
> 
> for me it was personal insult and that is why I acted like that, problems with our guitars were in the past and NEVER ended like this before ...



It just seems to me you're trying to justify acting the way you did, instead of just apologizing.


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## SnowfaLL (Apr 30, 2010)

noodles said:


> I have never seen a builder so combative on a pubic forum before, especially coming right out and attacking a customer. I predict that impacting the proverbial bottom line. Plus, I know that if I got a guitar, from a builder that has a sketchy reputation to being with, with a pickup placement as blatantly wrong as that, after it had to be rebuilt once, I'd make sure I'd let everyone know that I paid for a fucked up guitar, and rightfully so. I wouldn't want anyone else making the same mistake I did.



Never read a Patrick Sims thread, eh? -_-


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

Criticism is not worries me, it's even better than silence, cause problems made us better builder every time, but personal attacks/insults are beyond my strength and silence is not welcomed there


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> Criticism is not worries me, it's even better than silence, cause problems made us better builder every time, but personal attacks/insults are beyond my strength and silence is not welcomed there



Well, if nothing else in this thread makes me never want to order a Roter, I think this more than seals the deal. You can't even apologize for your unacceptable behavior, let alone sending out a messed up guitar.


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

I think it is very easily possible for you to see the problems I noted. I can try to take better pictures if you tell me what exactly you would like to see. Then it would be nice if you could comment on what you think about the severity of these problems and how they could be technically fixed.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Sorry for derailing your thread into a rant about his customer service skills Lethe. Nothing burns my ass more than attitudes like this.


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## Necris (Apr 30, 2010)

I have high hopes that this guitar is just a lemon and the rest turn out fine. However these flaws could have been easily avoided with a simple double-checking of the new fret templates after they were initially recieved and by e-mailing to Lethe to inform him about the possible issue with the pickup angle and waiting for a response before routing out the pickup at the wrong angle.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> It just seems to me you're trying to justify acting the way you did, instead of just apologizing.



of course, cause there was a reason in 1st post for reaction like that, you don't want to see and understand that, your choice, but I have my dignity just like you have yours



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Sorry for derailing your thread into a rant about his customer service skills Lethe. Nothing burns my ass more than attitudes like this.



I think you already said more than you should, you are not my customer, you know nothing about my customer service, I had never any complains about that, even Lethe can say that customer service wasn't as bad as you want to see it

This thread goes nowhere, I gave Lethe easiest possible way to solve the problem and it's just his move right now, he wants this thread to go or he wants to solve the problem we have


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> of course, cause there was a reason in 1st post for reaction like that, you don't want to see and understand that, your choice, but I have my dignity just like you have yours



So....just so I get this right and I know there's on language barrier, you believe as a business man that the comments you made to Lethe were completely, 100% acceptable?


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## sPliNtEr_777 (Apr 30, 2010)

I very very much hope no luthier on this board takes what I am about to type personally, as that is in no way what is intended: this is why I ordered my custom from Ran. They are a proven and artist endorsed luthier with a worldwide rep. Luthiers like Roter or Decibel or Sims or whoever might offer a high spec guitar for what seems like a bargain price, and a lot of the time this is true without issue, but you have to ask why they are so affordable. New luthier means unproven quality or even inexperienced at building guitars. For e.g. Emperion- everyone is starting threads about how good they are because they simply recieved an email from them, but the proof is in the pudding, you have to look impartially, regardless of aesthetics or price. This is the first run of Roter fanned frets so you have to expect mistakes, but at the same time why was the template not checked, double or even triple checked? Id rather not speculate but shit happens. Lethe should get the new neck and body he wants, which he probably will. Sebastien hopefully has learnt that the customer (in general) is very sensitive and people react very quickly on first impressions, and maybe we can all just think, "what am I actually paying for?"

I know Ive had my 2c, but consider this 2 more  I mean no offense by anything, just my opinion...


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## Snytbaggen (Apr 30, 2010)

Apophis said:


> I think you already said more than you should, you are not my customer, you know nothing about my customer service, I had never any complains about that, even Lethe can say that customer service wasn't as bad as you want to see it



I don't really want to jump into this conversation, but I want to comment on this. Sure, most of the people in here aren't your customers, but I'm sure a lot of us, including me, are potential customers. And it's probably true that we don't know much about your customer service, but the little we know about it is what we've have gathered from the forum and this thread (at least that's the case with me, can't speak for everyone). So the image you put up here is important for future sales. For example, depending how you solve this I might be a customer in the future.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

Snytbaggen said:


> I don't really want to jump into this conversation, but I want to comment on this. Sure, most of the people in here aren't your customers, but I'm sure a lot of us, including me, are potential customers. And it's probably true that we don't know much about your customer service, but the little we know about it is what we've have gathered from the forum and this thread (at least that's the case with me, can't speak for everyone). So the image you put up here is important for future sales. For example, depending how you solve this I might be a customer in the future.



Not only that, I really WAS seriously considering ordering one. I've posted in the other thread. I was a potential customer, and I think everyone here knows that I DO actually buy shit, in case you can't tell from my retarded number of picstories 

Not anymore.


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## Crucified (Apr 30, 2010)

In general, you are all being retarded. He has offered more than once to take the guitar back and fix the problem and this hasn't been addressed at all. How about the two people involved give each other a call, work it out nicely, say apologies where apologies are needed and everyone can stop lynching one another on the internet. Lets all grow up a year or two and stop having a slap fight about who's in the wrong. 

Seriously, take a deep fucking breath and take a look at your bloody posts.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)

I am being retarded, but honestly, look how he's acted, and still acting. An apology goes a long way, and like I said, I was considering buying one


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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

Sending out the guitar is not an option before you admit that there are obvious problems and agree to fix them until a certain date. Otherwise, it could be gone for god knows how long, you have my money, and I have no way of getting either back. Looking back, I think it is only natural that I am being careful.


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## AzzMan (Apr 30, 2010)

Unresolved arguments on the internet like this are great reasons to make me happy playing ESPs, Gibsons, etc...


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## Crucified (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> Sending out the guitar is not an option before you admit that there are obvious problems and agree to fix them until a certain date. Otherwise, it could be gone for god knows how long, you have my money, and I have no way of getting either back. Looking back, I think it is only natural that I am being careful.



have you called him and talked to this with him and not on a message board? you know, like a normal human being would? so you guys can agree on terms and conditions instead of just starting a tirade on the innernets? 

this is my last post in this abomination because it doesn't affect me at all and i have stopped caring but seriously, you guys(sebastion included) all need to start acting like adults and use words with each other, back and forth, in a conversation between the two people that are having issues and talk about what can be done. I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. These threads are ridiculous. 


 I'm out.


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## Apophis (Apr 30, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> So....just so I get this right and I know there's on language barrier, you believe as a business man that the comments you made to Lethe were completely, 100% acceptable?



I said before I maybe overreacted, I gave him easy solution for making things at least better from point we are now, still no answer, public or private, I don't want his extra money he said before, 3rd persons to work with us etc, it will change nothing and will make more problems.

So I would like everyone to listen ...

I would like to apologize Lethe for my overreaction and being rude. I hope you will understand why I did that and why it went so wrong. Let's keep it civil and start working about solution how we should from the beginning of this situation. I hope it will solve our problem. 
Forgive me ...
Sebastian - Roter Custom Guitars


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 30, 2010)




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## Lethe (Apr 30, 2010)

I also would like to apologize to you again for speculating about what your reaction would be. I hope it doesn't offend you that this turned out to be the place where we discussed this, but I think that it is an appropriate place to do this. If you disagree, we can continue using PM and I will give a positive update here when the situation is resolved.

So, do you see any problems with my guitar? Would you like to get a more detailed picture of something?


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## Leon (Apr 30, 2010)

Lethe said:


> I also would like to apologize to you again for speculating about what your reaction would be. I hope it doesn't offend you that this turned out to be the place where we discussed this, but I think that it is an appropriate place to do this. If you disagree, we can continue using PM and I will give a positive update here when the situation is resolved.
> 
> So, do you see any problems with my guitar? Would you like to get a more detailed picture of something?



Please do


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## djpharoah (Apr 30, 2010)

Damn Leon - blink and you already closed it. 

Glad you two are _now_ taking this to PMs. I still think this thread could have been avoided had you guys tried to work this out initially via PM. If it didn't then work out or the ability to come to a common ground then maybe this thread would have made sense.


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## El Caco (Apr 30, 2010)

I fell asleep at the start and wake up to find this cluster fuck, shit.

Deadseen has 2 weeks off to think about his accusations/attack.

We need to all take something from this thread, a thread like this should not be posted before giving the builder a chance to resolve it. This has been said before but this thread demonstrates why.

When I come home in a few hours this thread will disappear.


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## Apophis (May 3, 2010)

Thread was re-opened for me and Lethe to post here solution we have:

Lethe and I have already found an agreement. Lethe will send the guitar back, I'll build a new body and neck without the issues he noted. If the pickup angle parallel to the bridge causes sound problems, it will be Lethe's problem, not my, cause I will follow his direct needs. Upon arrival at my shop, I will make the new guitar in 5 weeks including shipping back to Lethe, so if the guitar does not arrive at his house 5 weeks after it reaches the Roter shop, I'll refund all his money.

That is full form of our agreement


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## Jay Jay (May 3, 2010)

Apophis said:


> Thread was re-opened for me and Lethe to post here solution we have:
> 
> Lethe and I have already found an agreement. Lethe will send the guitar back, I'll build a new body and neck without the issues he noted. If the pickup angle parallel to the bridge causes sound problems, it will be Lethe's my problem, not my, cause I will follow his direct needs. Upon arrival at my shop, I will make the new guitar in 5 weeks including shipping back to Lethe, so if the guitar does not arrive at his house 5 weeks after it reaches the Roter shop, I'll refund all his money.
> 
> That is full form of our agreement



Good job guys, I'm glad you could come to a reasonable agreement 

One thing though, if it were me, I wouldn't be putting a time constraint on it, because that could just cause other problems. I'd rather have the guitar done when it's done and have something that that someone took their time to get perfect.


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## Apophis (May 3, 2010)

we had to agree some max time, cause he already waited long enough (other customers also) so in my personal opinion it is at least fair


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## Beardyman (May 3, 2010)

Cheers guys! I'm glad to see everything worked out well for both sides.


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## 77zark77 (May 3, 2010)

if every fighter here apologize, why is that thread still readable ?

a lesson ? :

peace is more constructive


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## Customisbetter (May 3, 2010)




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## Jay Jay (May 3, 2010)

Apophis said:


> we had to agree some max time, cause he already waited long enough (other customers also) so in my personal opinion it is at least fair



Yeah, that's fair.
Well anyway, I'm glad you guys were able to work it out!


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## guitarplayerone (May 3, 2010)

Apophis said:


> we had to agree some max time, cause he already waited long enough (other customers also) so in my personal opinion it is at least fair



wow, actually i'll have to say that i'm very pleasantly surprised at this. sometimes these things happen, and i can understand that you are losing money on this guitar, but i'll have to say that the overall effect of this sort of policy on your reputation is just stellar. i don't think a single builder has ever gone wrong with this policy; you lose money on one guitar but sell an extra ten because potential customers just feel a lot safer


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## iff (May 3, 2010)

This thread really turned around quickly.


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## Soopahmahn (May 3, 2010)

nomop said:


> This thread really turned around quickly.



Mostly because people who weren't involved were forced to shut the hell up and let the relevant parties resolve their differences. All of those "" posts did nothing but throw gas on that fire. I am glad too that this is on its way to resolution.

Apophis: beautiful looking guitars!


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## Sebastian (May 3, 2010)

Good to see this whole situation taking a positive turn 
That's a really good and fair deal 

Can't wait for updates


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## Lethe (May 4, 2010)

Yup, that's the resolution. Even with all the problems, it's hard to let the guitar go again. But if it comes back, I'm sure it will be worth every penny.


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## Leon (May 4, 2010)

Thanks, guys. Go ahead and start a new thread when it comes back


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