# Starcraft II



## Arterial (Jul 12, 2011)

Does anyone else here play SC2?

Besides guitar, SC probably eats up the most of my time.

I've been playing since Beta and before that I've been playing SC1.

I know Starcraft isn't exactly a "bro" game but yeah =]


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## SirMyghin (Jul 12, 2011)

I played the Beta and a lot for the first few months of launch, but the whole extreme league orientation for team games and such kind of killed off (at least in my circles) the whole get 8 friends and have rotating team matches.


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## groph (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm too much of a casual RTS player to get into a game like Starcraft II, which was created and balanced for that super competitive play. That's just not enjoyable at all to me, it's all tactics and no strategy. X build order counters Y build order, the meta-game dictates what you build, etc. 

Had a great time with the campaign though, but I never play it online. Not the kind of "strategy" game I enjoy, I'm into ones like Supreme Commander 2, and even that game is cutting it close.

WHY DID THE FIRST SUPREME COMMANDER HAVE TO BE WRITTEN SO BADLY???!!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jul 13, 2011)

groph said:


> I'm too much of a casual RTS player to get into a game like Starcraft II, which was created and balanced for that super competitive play. That's just not enjoyable at all to me, it's all tactics and no strategy. X build order counters Y build order, the meta-game dictates what you build, etc.



Agreement. It's a fun game, but playing online is a complete pain in the ass.


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## Prydogga (Jul 13, 2011)

I actually really enjoy that it's that stragetic, I feel there's so many games that discourage or make it hard to put any thought about how you should act against your enemy in a variety of situations, Starcraft is a great example of how carefully executed strategy actually does exist in gaming.


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## Tomo009 (Jul 13, 2011)

Yeah, I haven't played much in a while though. I was only a Platinum. Zerg player, I eventually got frustrated with how brain dead Protoss strategies seemed to be and it was taking so much for me to just survive the early game that my playing sort of petered out. I kind of want to really get back into it, but now it seems like a titanic task just to get back up to my platinum level haha. Will definitely try to get somewhat decent again before HoTS.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 13, 2011)

I am a now relapsed gamer because of this game. I bought sc2 the other day and have been playing and learning it religiously. I plan on becoming extremely efficient and good at it .




groph said:


> I'm too much of a casual RTS player to get into a game like Starcraft II, which was created and balanced for that super competitive play. That's just not enjoyable at all to me, _*it's all tactics and no strategy*_. X build order counters Y build order, the meta-game dictates what you build, etc.



lolwut?



Tomo009 said:


> Yeah, I haven't played much in a while though. _*I was only a Platinum.*_ Zerg player, I eventually got frustrated with how brain dead Protoss strategies seemed to be and it was taking so much for me to just survive the early game that my playing sort of petered out. I kind of want to really get back into it, but now it seems like a titanic task just to get back up to my platinum level haha. Will definitely try to get somewhat decent again before HoTS.



This seems like a significant achievement to me. I dont think that Protoss strategies are brain dead, they just dictate the direction of the game, as opposed to having to react to the other player's strategy, which is very characteristic of Zerg.


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## SirMyghin (Jul 13, 2011)

As far as strategies go, I found the 'counters' in SCII to be too much 'hard' counters, where when executed you destroy the army with little chance of failure (assuming equal level players). I prefer the more soft counter approach in RTS, where there is always a bit more of an out if you are crafty, the amount of circumstancial bonuses I think play a factor, they need to be deadened a bit imo.


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## Asrial (Jul 13, 2011)

I got it, I liked it somewhat, but I can finally, after 10 years of on-and-off playing RTS-games in style with SCII, that it is not my preferred genre, even though it is very competitive.


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## groph (Jul 13, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> As far as strategies go, I found the 'counters' in SCII to be too much 'hard' counters, where when executed you destroy the army with little chance of failure (assuming equal level players). I prefer the more soft counter approach in RTS, where there is always a bit more of an out if you are crafty, the amount of circumstancial bonuses I think play a factor, they need to be deadened a bit imo.



TO HE WHO LOLWUTTED ME:

This is why I said it's all tactics and no strategy. "Strategy" implies grand scale, a general battle plan. With a game like Starcraft, you have a small army on a small map and the units are designed with a rock-paper-scissors kind of counter system in mind.

There is a little bit of leeway in terms of general strategy but really, if you have a plan in mind and scout your opponent, figuring out that he is doing a build that happens to hard counter yours, there goes your "strategy" since you can shift things on the fly with Starcraft and similar games. Compare that to Supreme Commander where you aren't playing a game that is an abstraction of a battle, you're playing a simulation of an actual battle. The maps are measured in kilometres (biggest is 81x81) and you can field up a 1,000 units. Army composition of course matters, but since the scale is so big you actually have to devise a grand strategy (like play defensively and tech up or play aggressively and do a land rush, sacrificing late game survivability). You employ full usage of land, sea, and air units, as well as stationary artillery pieces that take half an hour to build and can shoot all the way across the map. You get shield generators, massive powerplants that explode in nuclear fury, nuclear missiles, and behemoth experimental units that can single handedly crush entire land armies.

It's not that Starcraft has absolutely zero strategy to it, it's just much much more focused on tactics (individual unit movement and positioning), micromanagement and force composition thanks to the hard counter system. I hate hard counter systems, makes the game almost entirely unenjoyable to me.


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## Tomo009 (Jul 14, 2011)

Of course it's competitive, that's part of the reason I DO like it. The fact that the races are all so different in gameplay yet there is a semblance of balance is pretty crazy.

That said, Protoss always gave me headaches, pure blink stalker and stalker/colossus were just TOO strong against zerg, the only counter was to not let them get their army. Which as Zerg really wasn't easy. People really aren't kidding when they call it a 300 food army, add a few sentries and therefore the first bit of micro required by the Protoss and it became godlike.

I understand that most of Protoss' attention has to go to base management as they have a lot of tasks to keep their production running optimally and early game force fielding can't be stress-free but it seems that the risk-reqard payoff late game was just ridiculous. Not unbeatable by any means but the Zerg player has a much, much tougher time in that encounter than the Protoss.

Back when I was really playing, I would use Spanishiwa's style against Protoss because it would easily defend gate rushes and I would be so far ahead in economy against anything but a fast expanding Protoss that I didn't have to fear them too much. That is when the huge scale pressure and harassment game that I love begins.


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## dacimvrl (Jul 14, 2011)

Starcraft II is amazing, teamplay..etc., too bad i can't play now


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## SirMyghin (Jul 14, 2011)

groph said:


> TO HE WHO LOLWUTTED ME:
> 
> This is why I said it's all tactics and no strategy. "Strategy" implies grand scale, a general battle plan. With a game like Starcraft, you have a small army on a small map and the units are designed with a rock-paper-scissors kind of counter system in mind.
> 
> ...



Shame SupCom never really caught on like the other RTSs (which are much simpler). I didn't do much online play as my friends didn't bother to play it, unfortunately. I really liked the scope it provided however.


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## dacimvrl (Jul 14, 2011)

groph said:


> TO HE WHO LOLWUTTED ME:
> 
> This is why I said it's all tactics and no strategy. "Strategy" implies grand scale, a general battle plan. With a game like Starcraft, you have a small army on a small map and the units are designed with a rock-paper-scissors kind of counter system in mind.
> 
> ...



LOLWUT..????!

this just proves how ignorant you are and how little you have experienced SC2 MP..

Strategy and tactics = 50/50 in SC2, if not more. There's something called the meta-game. And the way you devise a strategy is by scouting. You don't just shut your eyes and ears, and just blindly build 1000 units and send them to battle like you prefer. <- imho, that's pointless. 

With SC2, You have to scout, devise counters or attack plans, and surprise people. Strategy is huge, if you see your opponent teching, you have to make a conscious decision to attack/harass, out-expand, or tech. It's not as simple and ignorant as X build order > Y order like you mentioned. For instance, Huk's legendary Mothership Rush. It's not conventional, it's not an auto-win build order, cuz there ISN'T one. 

This is strategy, not just tactics by the way.
&#x202a;SC2 MOTHERSHIP RUSH WAT?&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

SC2 is also faster paced, so you could start with fast-expansion in mind, but you have to evolve your strategy constantly because you found holes in your opponent's strategy or the other way around. You don't just build whatever, select them all, and send them off hoping you have a bigger army and not having to worry about micro, or have some uber nuke that can single-handedly destroy your enemy, cuz that's not strategy, that's just plain mindless. (i spent 30min building an IWIN button; therefore i win?) *cough* did somebody mention that he hates hard counters? *cough*

SC2 is a game for thinkers and strategists - you simply can't win by having the best micro in the game. Like what you said about Supreme Commander, you have to make the decisions to tech/defend, expand/defend, attack/harass, or even expand/harass or tech/harass based on scouting and a lot of times, terrain(high ground, low ground, distance, surprise backdoor, or hide expansions by building them far away from your naturals). And this happens constantly, whenever you engage, you modify your grand strategy cuz you have to evolve with the battlefield or you get left behind.

In diamond league and above, we have to constantly mix up our builds and intentionally build buildings/unit that we have no intention of mass using and hide some buildings from enemy scouts just to fool our opponents(false expansion, warp gating, canaling...etc); and that is the meta-game of SC2. Thus why strategy is easily half the game in SC2.


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## Tomo009 (Jul 14, 2011)

dacimvrl said:


> LOLWUT..????!
> 
> In diamond league and above, we have to constantly mix up our builds and intentionally build buildings/unit that we have no intention of mass using and hide some buildings from enemy scouts just to fool our opponents(false expansion, warp gating, canaling...etc); and that is the meta-game of SC2. Thus why strategy is easily half the game in SC2.



You do that in all leagues haha. One of my personal favorites was to build a baneling nest in plain sight for the terran while secretly building a spire somewhere hidden. Usually got about 20ish SCV kills just from the first air raid.

But they are sort of right in that your reactions to what you scout are sort of set in stone, there are a few paths to take usually, but they are very absolute. That's part of the reason Spanishiwa's build worked, it forced the opponent to either attempt to kill you (which is the wrong decision against that build) or macro hard and make sure you never take a third.


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## ZEBOV (Jul 15, 2011)

I nuked my own team's SCV's last night, and then sent my SCV's to their mineral fields....


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## groph (Jul 15, 2011)

dacimvrl said:


> LOLWUT..????!
> 
> this just proves how ignorant you are and how little you have experienced SC2 MP..
> 
> ...



Yeah, totally prefer strategy games with no thought at all whatsoever. In no way do you ever build 1000 of any unit mindlessly.

I'm also very aware of the existence of a metagame, I made mention of it before. I only meant that SC2 is too small of a scale for strategy in the grand strategy sense, strategy as if you were fighting an actual huge battle. Various builds are indeed called "strategies" but to me it seems that the game is "this counters that, that counters this" so you're pretty much forced to react to your opponent in a fairly few number of ways. I could be totally off, I mean I don't play SC2 but I have watched a ton of replays for shits. Debate me all you want. but Starcraft does not have "strategy" in the way bigger (physically bigger, not "more popular") RTS games like Supreme Commander have simply because the game operates on a tiny scale and the hard counter system combined with the ever-optimizing metagame kind of dictate how you're going to play anyway. With the SupCom games, you can stick to one general overarching plan for the entire game, unless of course you picked some kind of obvious mismatch to what your opponent is doing. Of course you still need to gather intelligence and react accordingly but there is much much more leeway in sticking to your end-game plan. You need to use what you do have out as best you can. I'll give Starcraft it's credit, you need freaky game knowledge to get good at it and navigating around that interface is a skill all on it's own especially when you use hotkeys, so it's the perfect competitive RTS. That kind of gameplay is to me, more like a sport than a game so it doesn't hold my interest. I love the huge scale of SupCom and the relative flexibility of it.

@ whoever lamented about SupCom not catching on, I know. When it came out it pretty much stressed the hell out of the best systems so hardly anyone could even run it. The fastest quadcores of the time crapped out hopelessly trying to process the simulation, and I hear that the game was poorly written to begin with so the engine just ran like shit regardless of the hardware it was being played on. It was simply too ambitious but holy shit it had the potential to be the best game of all time ever. Supreme Commander 2 is a lot better optimized so it runs on most systems pretty well. This came at a cost though, the maps are nowhere near as big for the most part, there are much much less units, the experimentals are much easier to get out, and the economy/base management are far easier to master. It's like SupCom on a diet, and that pissed off a lot of people. I still love SupCom2 because you can still get into some seriously huge battles, most of the units in SupCom were useless anyway, and 81x81km maps are kind of unmanageably huge. When I do play, it's usually on the 20x20 maps.

This thread surely isn't supposed to be us arguing over our own definitions of strategy and tactics, so feel free to continue with the "lolwut," I'm done. I understand that there are serious Starcraft experts out there, I am certainly not one of them.

Back to Starcraft, I had some good fun with the use map settings games in Broodwar, and honestly I haven't even tried a single one in SC2 yet. I remember that really simple snipers game in BW that was played top to bottom, giving the player on top an unfair advantage because he could run behind trees easier. A friend of mine devised a simple solution - he made it play left to right and everyone thought he was a genius.

Is there a SC2 version of Evolve or Zergling Blood?


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## ZEBOV (Jul 17, 2011)

I've played Evolves on SC2. I enjoyed it.


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## sentagoda (Jul 17, 2011)

I love S C. The only thing I dont like is the horrible ranking system. Loved the single player aspect of the game as well.


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## troyguitar (Jul 17, 2011)

I haven't bought SC2 yet but I played SC1 all of the time with friends back in the day and again in 2004-2006. If it's anything at all like SC1, I'll love playing with friends and hate playing online. People online are just plain too good for it to be fun unless you spend as many hours as them to be that good too. I feel the same way about FPS'es. It's fun to get drunk and play with friends, not fun to get demolished by kids who play 40+ hours a week.

Some of my most fun nights involved Red Bull + Vodka + playing StarCraft all night with a dozen or so people rotating in over the LAN - with everyone in the same room regardless of which team you were playing with. Scouting involved getting up and looking at your enemy's screen!


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## ZEBOV (Jul 18, 2011)

^Playing online with friends is always the most fun. It's especially fun when teamkilling those kids who play 40+ hours a week. It's hilarious how pissed off they get because they take the game so seriously.
7:45


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## Tomo009 (Jul 18, 2011)

troyguitar said:


> I haven't bought SC2 yet but I played SC1 all of the time with friends back in the day and again in 2004-2006. If it's anything at all like SC1, I'll love playing with friends and hate playing online. People online are just plain too good for it to be fun unless you spend as many hours as them to be that good too. I feel the same way about FPS'es. It's fun to get drunk and play with friends, not fun to get demolished by kids who play 40+ hours a week.
> 
> Some of my most fun nights involved Red Bull + Vodka + playing StarCraft all night with a dozen or so people rotating in over the LAN - with everyone in the same room regardless of which team you were playing with. Scouting involved getting up and looking at your enemy's screen!




It's no different in that you will have to spend hours and hours refining your play to do well and you will need to do a little research and know what you are doing just to compete at the lowest level. The genre is just nowhere near as "pick up and play" as FPS. It's sort of the nature of the beast, I love it though.


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## signalgrey (Jul 18, 2011)

ill bet you 100$ my youngest elementary student here could fucking destroy anyone on this site in an online match. I myself was maimed by a few of my students it was....embarassing. actually they let me run around with ONE unit just...taunting me. it was horrible.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jul 18, 2011)

signalgrey said:


> ill bet you 100$ my youngest elementary student here could fucking destroy anyone on this site in an online match. I myself was maimed by a few of my students it was....embarassing. actually they let me run around with ONE unit just...taunting me. it was horrible.



Judging from your location... you are kinda stating the obvious. 

Also, just because I'm curious, what exactly constitutes a "bro" game?


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## ZEBOV (Jul 18, 2011)

signalgrey said:


> ill bet you 100$ my youngest elementary student here could fucking destroy anyone on this site in an online match. I myself was maimed by a few of my students it was....embarassing. actually they let me run around with ONE unit just...taunting me. it was horrible.



No wonder. Starcraft is pretty much a national sport there.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 18, 2011)

Well I placed in bronze and have been playing bronze and silvers. They are a lot better than I thought they would be. Either that or I suck more than I think I do.


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## Arterial (Jul 20, 2011)

signalgrey said:


> ill bet you 100$ my youngest elementary student here could fucking destroy anyone on this site in an online match. I myself was maimed by a few of my students it was....embarassing. actually they let me run around with ONE unit just...taunting me. it was horrible.



well yeah...south korea....

ill bet you $100 that any elementary student in australia could destroy one of your students in a game of Australian Rules Football.



Bloody_Inferno said:


> Judging from your location... you are kinda stating the obvious.
> 
> Also, just because I'm curious, what exactly constitutes a "bro" game?



Games like Call of Duty, Halo, GTA etc etc.

Games where you can sit around a TV with mates and have a beer whilst playing. Games where you don't have to be a video game nerd to enjoy.

You'd hardly see any "bros" playing Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, if you get what I mean.

Starcraft is definitely a nerd game


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## Tomo009 (Jul 20, 2011)

Arterial said:


> You'd hardly see any "bros" playing Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, if you get what I mean.
> 
> Starcraft is definitely a nerd game



I tried with Blazblue, didn't go so well.

Well I played today, I'm sooo out of practice and it seems the meta game has moved far without me... it almost seems like starting again, a bit overwhelming really.

Do all zerg's use Spanishiwa's opening now or something because it's like everyone predicted it perfectly, some didn't scout even.


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## Arterial (Jul 20, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> I tried with Blazblue, didn't go so well.
> 
> Well I played today, I'm sooo out of practice and it seems the meta game has moved far without me... it almost seems like starting again, a bit overwhelming really.
> 
> Do all zerg's use Spanishiwa's opening now or something because it's like everyone predicted it perfectly, some didn't scout even.


Not all zergs do, I like to use spanishiwa opening myself though, in ZvP and ZvT anyway.

to anyone who takes their SCing even a little bit serious, come to teamliquid.net


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## Tomo009 (Jul 20, 2011)

Arterial said:


> Not all zergs do, I like to use spanishiwa opening myself though, in ZvP and ZvT anyway.
> 
> to anyone who takes their SCing even a little bit serious, come to teamliquid.net



I honestly can't even remember what ZvZ strategy I used, I think it involved really fast roaches and continuous pressure with upgrades, but it's been a while and I was never good at that matchup.

Even ZvT is giving me troubles which was my most comfortable match in the past, seems like Terran and trapping me in my 2 bases with tanks while they secure a 3rd for the win.

ZvP, my most dreaded matchup I just feel helpless now, I can hold 4 gate fine and if I spot Void Rays early I am usually ok, but anything normal and I can't keep up anymore, even using Spanishiwa's opening.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 20, 2011)

Link to Spanishiwa's opening?


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## Arterial (Jul 20, 2011)

to Tomo - in ZvZ it depends on the map, if its a small map, I'll probably 14gas/14pool or 11 pool/18 hatch or maybe even roach rush.

in big maps I might 15 hatch 14 pool or even do spanishiwa opening.


[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX

a quick search on teamliquid yields instant results mate


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## Arterial (Jul 20, 2011)

also, Strategy - Liquipedia Starcraft 2 Wiki

for all your build order and strategy needs


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## Cadavuh (Jul 28, 2011)

So, Arterial, do you have any advice for a lowly, yet ambitious silver player?


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## Tomo009 (Jul 28, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> So, Arterial, do you have any advice for a lowly, yet ambitious silver player?



You got into silver pretty quickly for a fresh player, so just watch your games and take notes of mistakes. Post it on team liquid even, they can be pretty helpful there. See if you noticed similar things to what they say. And CONSCIOUSLY change your game, don't take notes then play the same way.


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## Cadavuh (Jul 28, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> You got into silver pretty quickly for a fresh player, so just watch your games and take notes of mistakes. Post it on team liquid even, they can be pretty helpful there. See if you noticed similar things to what they say. And CONSCIOUSLY change your game, don't take notes then play the same way.



Yea I moved out of bronze right when they had those new placement matches the other day. I feel I easily beat the bronze and even a good amount of the silvers that I play because I have superior mechanics, building management etc...Not for any strategic or tactical reasons. When I push, I usually win just because my army is so much larger than my opponents. If they push, I fend it off while simultaneously replenishing my army and just attacking them right when their push fails.

Although, there have been quite a few times where I was just completely rolled. This happens almost exclusively vs Terran players.


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## Tomo009 (Jul 29, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Yea I moved out of bronze right when they had those new placement matches the other day. I feel I easily beat the bronze and even a good amount of the silvers that I play because I have superior mechanics, building management etc...Not for any strategic or tactical reasons. When I push, I usually win just because my army is so much larger than my opponents. If they push, I fend it off while simultaneously replenishing my army and just attacking them right when their push fails.
> 
> Although, there have been quite a few times where I was just completely rolled. This happens almost exclusively vs Terran players.



What race are you playing? Also a lot of games do come down to base turtling and doom pushes especially in the early phases. Take it to your advantage and take the map, those players will become even easier. However from your explanation I'm going to guess Protoss? They tend to be more about base strategy and "doomballs" than reactive tactics. I doubt you would've won without strategy or are you really just building stuff whenever, building everything and still winning?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jul 29, 2011)

Im re-downloading it now. I bought it at release online, then removed it so I could focus more on school, and now that its summer


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## Cadavuh (Jul 29, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> What race are you playing? Also a lot of games do come down to base turtling and doom pushes especially in the early phases. Take it to your advantage and take the map, those players will become even easier. However from your explanation I'm going to guess Protoss? They tend to be more about base strategy and "doomballs" than reactive tactics. I doubt you would've won without strategy or are you really just building stuff whenever, building everything and still winning?



Yea its Protoss. When I say I win without strategy, I mean more so that I don't really focus on any micro tricks, build orders, or army compositions beyond an elementary level. I mean, the order in which I build things is quite organized, which I would think would get me a bit ahead, at least at this level, and obviously I'm not going to warp in 20 zealots if I scout a huge ball of roaches. If I ever try to get too fancy my production really slips and I find myself sitting on 2k/1k.


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## Prydogga (Jul 29, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> Im re-downloading it now. I bought it at release online, then removed it so I could focus more on school, and now that its summer



I only recently re-downloaded it too, after some pretty intense practice I think I can safely say I'm better than the last time you and I played together. 

Fuck I hate zergling rushes, not only is it a very lucky way to win a game early in multiplayer, but the people that I see do it usually SUCK UTTER ARSE at their micro AND macro outside of using Lings. I almost always tech intensely, and if I get a changeling or Muta group in their base they usually have 1 gas and a queen if they're lucky, and this is at the point where I've managed to get to a Lair and multiple techs despite the attempts at crippling my economy.


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## Prydogga (Jul 29, 2011)

Arterial said:


> well yeah...south korea....
> 
> ill bet you $100 that any elementary student in australia could destroy one of your students in a game of Australian Rules Football.
> 
> ...



I play 2v2's with a 'bro' and we don't take it seriously. I mean, we're trying to rank up and do well, but all in all it's just like hanging out. I think the only way to claim it not being nerdy is that we don't do it on weekends.  

 It's still probably a nerd game haha


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## Tomo009 (Jul 29, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Yea its Protoss. When I say I win without strategy, I mean more so that I don't really focus on any micro tricks, build orders, or army compositions beyond an elementary level. I mean, the order in which I build things is quite organized, which I would think would get me a bit ahead, at least at this level, and obviously I'm not going to warp in 20 zealots if I scout a huge ball of roaches. If I ever try to get too fancy my production really slips and I find myself sitting on 2k/1k.



Well I'd call micro a tactic, build order is strategy for sure. I still get beaten by silver players, I'm really confused at how the game ranks people haha, I've played silver leagues with extremely solid strategies and good tactics as well.

Also protoss army compositions all tend to be "elementary level". And early in the game, your best defense against roaches is sentries, if they are in any number, laugh at how horribly behind the zerg is with 0 chance from thereon out. What opening build are you using? Past the first bit of food it's really just about maintaining macro, taking bases and staying alive until you ball of death is ready. That doesn't mean turtle, even as protoss there is some harassment available. A few DTs or phoenixes (if the zerg doesn't have adequate anti air yet) late in the game actually take a long time to respond to as zerg and can be VERY frustrating. I have lost games in the past where I was in a comfortable advantage, way ahead but 2 DTs turn up at each base and I'm scrambling all over the place and end up being beaten back down. And the big thing with protoss is, press your army advantage, don't just walk into the center of the map, but be imposing. Trust me when I say zerg are afraid of protoss armies, they must be pretty confident if they engage you. Be prepared for the inevitable harassment as that is the only way for zerg to get ahead against protoss.



Prydogga said:


> I only recently re-downloaded it too, after some pretty intense practice I think I can safely say I'm better than the last time you and I played together.
> 
> Fuck I hate zergling rushes, not only is it a very lucky way to win a game early in multiplayer, but the people that I see do it usually SUCK UTTER ARSE at their micro AND macro outside of using Lings. I almost always tech intensely, and if I get a changeling or Muta group in their base they usually have 1 gas and a queen if they're lucky, and this is at the point where I've managed to get to a Lair and multiple techs despite the attempts at crippling my economy.



You should look up some roach strategies, they are pretty dominating in ZvZ and to be honest, mutas are one the least useful units in ZvZ unless it's a complete surprise tactic. 6 pools can be helf off with 1 queen and simcity til your own lings pop then you are way ahead even if you lose the queen and a couple of drones. Block that gap with your queen and then when the roaches arrive block off your front entrance. There's not a whole lot your opponent can do apart from all in again or desperately macro/tech. It's great because they will be REALLY easy to scout at this stage and you have the advantage of being able to do all 3 macro/tech/army build and be ahead in every area. Zerg's all in's are pretty weak really, in fact the only matchup I EVER 6 pool is in ZvZ, every now and then I 9 pool pressure a protoss when I'm frustrated after 10 protoss' in a row or something.


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## drmosh (Jul 29, 2011)

I just want to add that I fucking love starcraft 2. I don't play much 1on1 anymore, but me and a bunch of mates play 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4s till the birds start chirping most weekends.
Started doing a couple 2v2v2s too, when we have enough players on. Teamspeak insults and BM all inclusive


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## Cadavuh (Jul 29, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Well I'd call micro a tactic, build order is strategy for sure. I still get beaten by silver players, I'm really confused at how the game ranks people haha, I've played silver leagues with extremely solid strategies and good tactics as well.
> 
> Also protoss army compositions all tend to be "elementary level". And early in the game, your best defense against roaches is sentries, if they are in any number, laugh at how horribly behind the zerg is with 0 chance from thereon out. What opening build are you using? Past the first bit of food it's really just about maintaining macro, taking bases and staying alive until you ball of death is ready. That doesn't mean turtle, even as protoss there is some harassment available. A few DTs or phoenixes (if the zerg doesn't have adequate anti air yet) late in the game actually take a long time to respond to as zerg and can be VERY frustrating. I have lost games in the past where I was in a comfortable advantage, way ahead but 2 DTs turn up at each base and I'm scrambling all over the place and end up being beaten back down. And the big thing with protoss is, press your army advantage, don't just walk into the center of the map, but be imposing. Trust me when I say zerg are afraid of protoss armies, they must be pretty confident if they engage you. Be prepared for the inevitable harassment as that is the only way for zerg to get ahead against protoss.



I use the 3 gate robo opening, I find it to be the most flexible build one can follow vs any race. I found it on that team liquid wiki. If I'm feeling feisty I'll execute what I think is an extremely poor 4gate. I've used phoenixes once. Luckily, it was against a fast expanding Zerg player. I managed to take out all the queens and drones at two expansions within about a minute . Bet he was aggravated.


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## Cadavuh (Aug 16, 2011)

bump for more SC discussion . Still in silver. I have been in the higher end of top 8 silver for about a week now. Expecting a gold bump soon.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 16, 2011)

Im pretty much addicted to SC.. to the point where it really hurts my music career and I want to quit but I cant =[ Been Top 200/GM afew times, but mainly just a top masters on NA and EU server right now (due to not playing enough).. been on afew sponsored teams too, its really picking up right now and money can be had which is what kinda pulls me back in, but ughh must quit and play more guitar! 

Really hoping HotS adds some new units to fix the balance a lot though, its iffy right now. 

Discussing balance is hard because balance is totally different dependent upon what league you are in; I noticed through these 2 pages everyone seems to think Protoss is the easiest race, yet when you get above mid-Masters, Protoss is significantly weaker (I play P/Z almost equally).. Looking at GSL (the top tournament) results since April, Protoss has a lower win rate than every other race at the top, and theres some seriously concerning buildorders out of korea that absolutely wreck protoss (terran 1-1-1) .. Just pointing this out, I hate how since the diamond-level casters like Husky and HD have brainwashed the whole north american community to think zerg is so weak, when really zerg is arguably the strongest race, to anyone who actually understands the game.. IdrA is the worst offender, hes been known to whine about retarded things since at least 2008 (how the hell was BW terran weak with Boxer, oov, Nada and flash??), yet people still take his words and run with it like its truth. The community just regurgitates whatever he says unfortunately.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 16, 2011)

signalgrey said:


> ill bet you 100$ my youngest elementary student here could fucking destroy anyone on this site in an online match. I myself was maimed by a few of my students it was....embarassing. actually they let me run around with ONE unit just...taunting me. it was horrible.



if I wasnt dead broke id take this challenge =[ I've been playing the KR server for the past month, its not too bad. Obviously harder than NA/EU, but I was still matching and beating Master players on there. I only had a 30 day trial though, so need to find some cash to buy my own KR account now. 

What league is he in?


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## Cadavuh (Aug 16, 2011)

Top 200 seems like some serious bidness. Whats your name in game? Do you mind if I add you?


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## Tomo009 (Aug 16, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Im pretty much addicted to SC.. to the point where it really hurts my music career and I want to quit but I cant =[ Been Top 200/GM afew times, but mainly just a top masters on NA and EU server right now (due to not playing enough).. been on afew sponsored teams too, its really picking up right now and money can be had which is what kinda pulls me back in, but ughh must quit and play more guitar!
> 
> Really hoping HotS adds some new units to fix the balance a lot though, its iffy right now.
> 
> Discussing balance is hard because balance is totally different dependent upon what league you are in; I noticed through these 2 pages everyone seems to think Protoss is the easiest race, yet when you get above mid-Masters, Protoss is significantly weaker (I play P/Z almost equally).. Looking at GSL (the top tournament) results since April, Protoss has a lower win rate than every other race at the top, and theres some seriously concerning buildorders out of korea that absolutely wreck protoss (terran 1-1-1) .. Just pointing this out, I hate how since the diamond-level casters like Husky and HD have brainwashed the whole north american community to think zerg is so weak, when really zerg is arguably the strongest race, to anyone who actually understands the game.. IdrA is the worst offender, hes been known to whine about retarded things since at least 2008 (how the hell was BW terran weak with Boxer, oov, Nada and flash??), yet people still take his words and run with it like its truth. The community just regurgitates whatever he says unfortunately.



Wow haha, guessing you encounter some public figures reasonably often?

Zerg does seem amazing in a vacuum, or from a purely theoretical viewpoint, but even at those top levels, isn't it hard for zerg to defend overly aggressive strategies? Not impossible, but requiring more skill from the zerg side? For a scrub like me, zerg seems like the stay safe race, if you can hold out against all the bs, you usually end up ahead in the end with your exponential growth of production. I very rarely do anything a all risky as zerg, the risk/reward seems very skewed, everything must be done for a very specific purpose.

I still love playing the game because it does seem pretty balanced, it's probably getting to the amount of time that we can say that tournaments are proving that.


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## Poho (Aug 16, 2011)

I play regularly with friends. Name is "Brotoss"


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 16, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Wow haha, guessing you encounter some public figures reasonably often?
> 
> Zerg does seem amazing in a vacuum, or from a purely theoretical viewpoint, but even at those top levels, isn't it hard for zerg to defend overly aggressive strategies? Not impossible, but requiring more skill from the zerg side? For a scrub like me, zerg seems like the stay safe race, if you can hold out against all the bs, you usually end up ahead in the end with your exponential growth of production. I very rarely do anything a all risky as zerg, the risk/reward seems very skewed, everything must be done for a very specific purpose.
> 
> I still love playing the game because it does seem pretty balanced, it's probably getting to the amount of time that we can say that tournaments are proving that.



Yea ive been running kinda in the "crowd" of people from a slight distance since 2004 or earlier.. but I quit for a long period of time (like 2002-2009) and played WC3. But I remember playing with the first Liquid back in 2001 on SC1, back in the early bnet channels. Back before Nazgul went to korea his first time. Ahh, I would be such an amazing guitarist if only SC didnt exist lol

Zerg is ALL about aggressive strategies; if you sit there and play "reactionary" style like IdrA, well you'll end up whining. NesTea plays aggressive zerg, and look where it takes him. Its a different mindset, people in SC2 seem to be brainwashed to think zerg is weak and fragile and has to macro, but really zerg is the best race to just be everywhere at once and have an overwhelming army, because SC2 zerg units are way stronger than their BW counterparts. When I play zerg, I almost always have complete map control with groups of lings/roaches/etc all over the map, ready to counter whenever an opponent leaves his base, or ready to drop 8 lings when hes out just to kill some pylons in his main, or even better baneling burrow or drops. 

Good zerg dictate the game flow, I suggest going to watch BW vods of sAvioR or Jaedong, thats how SC2 zerg needs to be played (or on SC2, watch Sen, Losira and Nestea, dont watch idra)

Once you learn all the other races "timing attack" windows and prepare for them (really no 4gate or 6gate should EVER kill you if you scout it properly) then you should always be at an advantage until the lategame, which comes down to decision making and not letting your injects slip.


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## Tomo009 (Aug 18, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Yea ive been running kinda in the "crowd" of people from a slight distance since 2004 or earlier.. but I quit for a long period of time (like 2002-2009) and played WC3. But I remember playing with the first Liquid back in 2001 on SC1, back in the early bnet channels. Back before Nazgul went to korea his first time. Ahh, I would be such an amazing guitarist if only SC didnt exist lol
> 
> Zerg is ALL about aggressive strategies; if you sit there and play "reactionary" style like IdrA, well you'll end up whining. NesTea plays aggressive zerg, and look where it takes him. Its a different mindset, people in SC2 seem to be brainwashed to think zerg is weak and fragile and has to macro, but really zerg is the best race to just be everywhere at once and have an overwhelming army, because SC2 zerg units are way stronger than their BW counterparts. When I play zerg, I almost always have complete map control with groups of lings/roaches/etc all over the map, ready to counter whenever an opponent leaves his base, or ready to drop 8 lings when hes out just to kill some pylons in his main, or even better baneling burrow or drops.
> 
> ...



Well I do harass a lot, I've seen NesTea's play a lot, it seems a lot like a knife's edge thing though, he seems to be on the brink of losing continually until he manages to get a real pay off from his attacks. Map control is something I definitely achieve, I don't turtle by any means, I usually try to contain my opponent and then take over the map. I don't really push in to kill unless I notice they are defenseless to my attack.

I also very rarely am phased by 4gate now, 6gate if the protoss is good at denying scouting can be annoying though. Also tend to crush any terran attacks early on that don't involve thors or well placed siege tanks that I somehow miss them setting up.


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## JPMike (Aug 29, 2011)

3 Rax Rush, oh yeah.


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## Tomo009 (Aug 29, 2011)

JPMike said:


> 3 Rax Rush, oh yeah.



Spinecrawlers and Queens, oh yeah. 

Or even just lings with banes on the way


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## Daiephir (Aug 29, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Yea ive been running kinda in the "crowd" of people from a slight distance since 2004 or earlier.. but I quit for a long period of time (like 2002-2009) and played WC3. But I remember playing with the first Liquid back in 2001 on SC1, back in the early bnet channels. Back before Nazgul went to korea his first time. Ahh, I would be such an amazing guitarist if only SC didnt exist lol
> 
> Zerg is ALL about aggressive strategies; if you sit there and play "reactionary" style like IdrA, well you'll end up whining. NesTea plays aggressive zerg, and look where it takes him. Its a different mindset, people in SC2 seem to be brainwashed to think zerg is weak and fragile and has to macro, but really zerg is the best race to just be everywhere at once and have an overwhelming army, because SC2 zerg units are way stronger than their BW counterparts. When I play zerg, I almost always have complete map control with groups of lings/roaches/etc all over the map, ready to counter whenever an opponent leaves his base, or ready to drop 8 lings when hes out just to kill some pylons in his main, or even better baneling burrow or drops.
> 
> ...



It's kind of odd then that I saw idra in the top 5 gran masters and didn't see Nestea's name anywhere there


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## Tomo009 (Aug 29, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> It's kind of odd then that I saw idra in the top 5 gran masters and didn't see Nestea's name anywhere there



Nestea probably plays more outside ladder for real practice. That said, NesTea doesn't play overly aggressive in the vein of July anyway, map control and flow yes, but they are different to all out aggressive.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 30, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Nestea probably plays more outside ladder for real practice. That said, NesTea doesn't play overly aggressive in the vein of July anyway, map control and flow yes, but they are different to all out aggressive.



lol not to mention NesTea doesnt even play on the US server, so no wonder you'll see IdrA there and not Nestea.. If anyone really thinks IdrA is anywhere close to the skill level of Nestea, they gotta be joking. I wouldnt even put IdrA in the top 30 zergs in the world.

Grandmaster is not the "be-all-end-all" of skill anyways.. You can get to grandmasters abusing one strat easily, and even get in the top ten of it like Combat-EX did.


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## Tomo009 (Aug 30, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Grandmaster is not the "be-all-end-all" of skill anyways.. You can get to grandmasters abusing one strat easily, and even get in the top ten of it like Combat-EX did.



But you would have to be absolutely freaking amazing at that strategy and it better work against all 3 races haha.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 30, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> But you would have to be absolutely freaking amazing at that strategy and it better work against all 3 races haha.



well there was that 3rax marine scv allin cheese that some platinum player made, and got in grandmaster from it on europe.. He played like 200 games, and even tho he only had like a 15% win rate vs terran, the wins he got from vsing P and Z being around 80% overcompensated for it.


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## Tomo009 (Aug 31, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> well there was that 3rax marine scv allin cheese that some platinum player made, and got in grandmaster from it on europe.. He played like 200 games, and even tho he only had like a 15% win rate vs terran, the wins he got from vsing P and Z being around 80% overcompensated for it.



Even if I somehow 6 pooled into GM or even M, I wouldn't be able to survive a normal game so it would be pretty useless. I only remember playing 1 Masters player on ladder and they 4 gated me, haha.


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## SnowfaLL (Aug 31, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Even if I somehow 6 pooled into GM or even M, I wouldn't be able to survive a normal game so it would be pretty useless. I only remember playing 1 Masters player on ladder and they 4 gated me, haha.



of course, but thats why I said it was stupid the guy said IdrA is higher ranked than Nestea, therefor being "better"..


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## Daiephir (Sep 1, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> of course, but thats why I said it was stupid the guy said IdrA is higher ranked than Nestea, therefor being "better"..



Well isn't being ranked higher demonstrate that you have the skills to be at that level?(also: what rank are you Nick?)


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## Tomo009 (Sep 1, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Well isn't being ranked higher demonstrate that you have the skills to be at that level?(also: what rank are you Nick?)



You kinda missed the point, Nestea would not play on NA, even if Idra was ranked higher on the Korean ladder, it's well known that Nestea is just a better player. Idra is great, but not the best, Nestea might be.


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## SnowfaLL (Sep 1, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Well isn't being ranked higher demonstrate that you have the skills to be at that level?(also: what rank are you Nick?)



I've been Top 200/GM in the past, but havent played much lately so only around ~1000 on US server right now.

And like Tomo said.. A) Nestea doesnt play on same server from IdrA, so you can't compare them there.. and B) Nestea almost exclusively does custom games, because ladder isn't good practice compared to playing the best players in the world on Nestea's team. If you want to get better, you find great practice partners and play vs them, not vs ladder kids who are going to 6pool you or 1-1-1 everygame solely to get a fast win/points. Which is what GM is a large part of those players (I play vs US and EU GM all the time, I'd say about half of them can't play a real macro game, just have one or two good timing strats worked out)


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## Daiephir (Sep 1, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> I've been Top 200/GM in the past, but havent played much lately so only around ~1000 on US server right now.
> 
> And like Tomo said.. A) Nestea doesnt play on same server from IdrA, so you can't compare them there.. and B) Nestea almost exclusively does custom games, because ladder isn't good practice compared to playing the best players in the world on Nestea's team. If you want to get better, you find great practice partners and play vs them, not vs ladder kids who are going to 6pool you or 1-1-1 everygame solely to get a fast win/points. Which is what GM is a large part of those players (I play vs US and EU GM all the time, I'd say about half of them can't play a real macro game, just have one or two good timing strats worked out)



I see, I wish to get pwned by you now  I'm only ranked Gold and low Gold at that XD


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## Daiephir (Sep 4, 2011)

2v2 is sooooo fun! I'm ranked Bronze there cause when I placed I was trying to learn Toss at the same time (uber cheesed Cannon Rush :lol but now I'm playing Terran and my bud and I are just on a winning streak (unless we get cheesed ourselves, like that other game where I got 6 pooled T_T)


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## Tomo009 (Sep 4, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> 2v2 is sooooo fun! I'm ranked Bronze there cause when I placed I was trying to learn Toss at the same time (uber cheesed Cannon Rush :lol but now I'm playing Terran and my bud and I are just on a winning streak (unless we get cheesed ourselves, like that other game where I got 6 pooled T_T)



You can wall before the 6 pool hits at all, ending the game for them instantly.


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## Daiephir (Sep 4, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> You can wall before the 6 pool hits at all, ending the game for them instantly.




Nah, not on that map (dont remembert the name though) ut its a 2v2 map, so the ramp was as large as an elephant, kinda hard to wall off, especially when your team mate gates in is base XD


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## Tomo009 (Sep 6, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Nah, not on that map (dont remembert the name though) ut its a 2v2 map, so the ramp was as large as an elephant, kinda hard to wall off, especially when your team mate gates in is base XD



Still, worker micro beats lings easy haha. A micro trick you must learn is using mineral walk to surround the lings, SCVs just happen to be the best workers in a fight, especially with repair. If he doesn't commit, he's done for, if he continues pressure you need to stall for marines then you are fine and he is as good as dead unless his partner saves him.


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## Daiephir (Sep 8, 2011)

dude, I'm barely Gold, micro isn't the thing I'm focusing on working on right now XD (but you are right, in another game, I killed his lings, only had 2 workers left though T_T)


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## Tomo009 (Sep 8, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> dude, I'm barely Gold, micro isn't the thing I'm focusing on working on right now XD (but you are right, in another game, I killed his lings, only had 2 workers left though T_T)



I'm only playing at gold level at the moment as well, getting my groove back .

Worker micro is absolutely vital, it really isn't hard, grab workers, click a mineral patch, click opposing mineral patch, a click when drones are under lings, auto surround! If they are running back from it then they know what to do and you'll have to try a little harder but really it is actually much much much easier to micro against a 6 pool than to micro a 6 pool. It is probably the weakest rush in the game once you know how to deal with it. Canon/bunker rushes however are difficult to micro against even when you know the tricks.

Really you should only lose a few drones to a 6 pool, if they aren't committing to it you should be way ahead, if they commit they are truly all in, once you get enough queens/any roaches/banelings you could just turn it around and end it right there..


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## Daiephir (Sep 8, 2011)

FYI I dont play Zerg  Not until Heart of the Swarm comes out (I know how to cannon rush people though )


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## Tomo009 (Sep 9, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> FYI I dont play Zerg  Not until Heart of the Swarm comes out (I know how to cannon rush people though )



My advice wasn't zerg specific XD Also, SCVs are the strongest workers in a fight.


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## fantom (Sep 9, 2011)

I just caught up a on a month thread I never saw... lol. I was going to go to a MLG event to watch some pro matches, but after seeing some of these spectator videos at live events... well I might not be as big a nerd as I thought!

As far as Zerg players... ya Idra is more known for his BM than skill I think. Granted, he could slaughter me. Check out Nerchio if you want to see another aggressive Zerg.

Also, the Spanishiwa style isn't as much predictable as necessary. It emphasizes economy over army. Most games I play, I expect the Zerg to FE and possibly double expand. I just scout gas timing to make sure there isn't quick muta or infestor and push before the army can counter mine. It's really risky to dump money into drones without an army... but it's also really hard to balance drone vs. army size. As an opponent, you have to figure out how they are using larvae and attack accordingly. As a Zerg, you have to abuse mobility and economy. If you get attacked, 10 lings in the right position can do huge damage in a counter attack. Likewise, baneling drops on workers (get +2 melee first) or infestor harassment can destroy opponent economy and make them more defensive (if they don't try to all in right then).

Overall, Zerg is just a pain in the butt... They are fundamentally broken (ya another Zerg rant). I started Zerg in the beta and switch to brotoss eventually. I tend to play Random now, but Protoss is by far the easiest race for me to play. Terran is good if you like to make 1 engagement take 1000 clicks and 4 minutes.


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## Daiephir (Sep 10, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> My advice wasn't zerg specific XD Also, SCVs are the strongest workers in a fight.



Yes, yes they are, I still suck balls though


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## obZ3n (Sep 10, 2011)

Just got it a few days ago, im in 4th place bronze in 1v1s (just went straight to multilayer) but my mate and i just got into Platinum league after 5 2v2 games


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## Arterial (Sep 11, 2011)

obZ3n said:


> Just got it a few days ago, im in 4th place bronze in 1v1s (just went straight to multilayer) but my mate and i just got into Platinum league after 5 2v2 games


Grats mate,

2s, 3s and 4s are easier to get high ranked in, because they take less skill.

doing 1s is how good you are


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## Tomo009 (Sep 12, 2011)

Arterial said:


> Grats mate,
> 
> 2s, 3s and 4s are easier to get high ranked in, because they take less skill.



If you are lucky and well, know how to play teams, it's a different dynamic obviously. I suck terribly at it, I try to play too "standard" and get crushed before I have anything to defend myself with. I'm fine with 6 lings and a spinecrawler or some zealot/stalker or marine/bunker (ok this one maybe not, I suck against it 1v1 anyway) walking into my base early but 12 lings or any other 2v2+ rush I can't deal with.


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## Daiephir (Sep 24, 2011)

Tomo, wanna 2v2 some time?


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## Tomo009 (Sep 25, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Tomo, wanna 2v2 some time?



Haha sure, I'm pretty terrible at 2's though.


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## Daiephir (Sep 25, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Haha sure, I'm pretty terrible at 2's though.



Haha, great, we're gonna be the best not tip-top player team around 

Unsurprisingly, I'm known under the Daiephir nick (how odd ) code number is 896 (that goes for anyone else who wants to add me in sc2 for some games, just tell me who you are )


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## Tomo009 (Sep 27, 2011)

Sorry I missed your message, which server are you on?


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## Daiephir (Sep 27, 2011)

US (I guess you're not on the US one T_T)


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## Tomo009 (Sep 28, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> US (I guess you're not on the US one T_T)



I have SEA and US, I'll get my numbery thing and post it here.


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## Daiephir (Sep 28, 2011)

Sweet


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## Daiephir (Oct 5, 2011)

Also, since I'm an achievement whore, I started doing all of the co-op ones, beause I can  Rushing to CattleBruisers is fun as hell  while my partner goes ling broodlord


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## SnowfaLL (Oct 6, 2011)

they are much harder now, I did all the achievements back last september (im at about 4300 achievement points, so not completely in ladder game ones) but now it'd take way longer to get insane comp ones =[


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## Daiephir (Oct 6, 2011)

Oh! I see! well, luckily for me, I cant play on insane difficulty without dying quickly  (thats probably why I could do that BC rush, I'm playing the ai on medium lol)


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## Tomo009 (Oct 6, 2011)

Gah, forgot all about this thread. Damn uni taking up all my valuable game time!

Anyway I'm Tomo, 650 on NA.


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## Daiephir (Oct 10, 2011)

Welp, its official, as of today, the ladders are locked down and season 4 will start the 24th of October, fuck yeah for new maps.


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## Tomo009 (Oct 11, 2011)

I've barely even played this season XD The maps seemed so much better this time than they were before, I hope they don't mess it all up again.


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## Daiephir (Oct 11, 2011)

They do have some good maps, but I'd like Belshir beach added to the pool, Xel'Naga Forteress, more GSL maps essentially (and removing BackWater Gulch or however its named, I hate it with a passion).


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## Cadavuh (Oct 14, 2011)

With awesome macro and some clever micro, I will take myself to diamond on pure marine. YEA WHAT?













Ok, maybe medivacs too.


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## jam3v (Oct 14, 2011)

Man I was obsessed with this game for a while. .. like, not in a good way lol


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## Daiephir (Oct 14, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> With awesome macro and some clever micro, I will take myself to diamond on pure marine. YEA WHAT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, when playing Toss you can 4gate your way to top diamond with next to no effort


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## Tomo009 (Oct 15, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> With awesome macro and some clever micro, I will take myself to diamond on pure marine. YEA WHAT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That's entirely possible, marines are by far the most versatile unit in the game. I'd go as far as saying the best. They are cost efficient as hell and require less micro than most other units in most situations. Go for it, there will be some build order losses, but it is probably the most solid "macro is all you need lul" build possible in the game.


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## dacimvrl (Oct 16, 2011)

jam3v said:


> Man I was obsessed with this game for a while. .. like, not in a good way lol



like left hand on the mouse and right hand.....err you know..?????


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## Mexi (Oct 16, 2011)

I recently got back into this, are marines/medivacs still viable?


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## Daiephir (Oct 16, 2011)

Why aren't you on Liquipedia checking the strats?


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## Mexi (Oct 17, 2011)

cause this is the first time I'm heard of it! I'm quite the noob, thanks for the tip though


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## Tomo009 (Oct 17, 2011)

Mexi said:


> I recently got back into this, are marines/medivacs still viable?



Yes, very much so, add some tanks if you have the micro and you have the stock standard TvZ bio army. Mech is a bit risky imo even though it's popular right now. I personally feel relieved playing against a mech terran.

I think against Protoss and especially Terran you will have to try a slightly different build though, marauders are needed against most protoss armies and terran vs terran is still a turtle war usually own in the air.


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## Daiephir (Oct 17, 2011)

Ghost are needed against Toss, God bless EMP


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## jam3v (Oct 17, 2011)

There's some (new?) strat where Terrans open with a single Banshee to harass the mineral line, then come after you with a wall of marines and a few Thors / SCV's.

They actually attack with the SCV's, instead of repairing the Thor, to distract attacking units, and the marines / Thor annihilate. 

I haven't really found a good way to counter this.


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## Daiephir (Oct 17, 2011)

Micro so that you target them Thors/Marines, scout so that you see he starts with cloaked Banshees?


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## Tomo009 (Oct 18, 2011)

jam3v said:


> There's some (new?) strat where Terrans open with a single Banshee to harass the mineral line, then come after you with a wall of marines and a few Thors / SCV's.
> 
> They actually attack with the SCV's, instead of repairing the Thor, to distract attacking units, and the marines / Thor annihilate.
> 
> I haven't really found a good way to counter this.



This has been around since season 1, if you know it's coming it's really easy. Wasn't before because the thors were as good as invincible as you couldn't target SCVs around them.


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## Daiephir (Oct 18, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> This has been around since season 1, if you know it's coming it's really easy. Wasn't before because the thors were as good as invincible as you couldn't target SCVs around them.



Actually, opening with cloacked banshees is considerefd a cheese by some, so with actual scouting you should see it, lke its not normal for terran to have 2 gas on 12 

EDIT: Un-cloacked Banshees vs Zerg is soooo fun though, snipe that Queen, ruin economie, leave unscathed :3


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## jam3v (Oct 18, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Actually, opening with cloacked banshees is considerefd a cheese by some, so with actual scouting you should see it, lke its not normal for terran to have 2 gas on 12
> 
> EDIT: Un-cloacked Banshees vs Zerg is soooo fun though, snipe that Queen, ruin economie, leave unscathed :3



Problem is scouting.. It's impossible to scout Terran until like 20-something food if they wall off (and any good Terran does) w/ Protoss.

That's always been my main complaint about balance with this game, is scouting is almost impossible in a lot of situations, making it hard to know what to build.

Makes the game more random and more about chance than about precise skill.

I was #1 Diamond when I used to play, but I guess that doesn't mean much cause I still feel noob.


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## Daiephir (Oct 18, 2011)

Run inside his base at 7 and if you're lucky, he wont have dropped his 1st supply yet so he wont have stuff at his ramp? or get an uber quick observer, like stupidly fast XD


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## Tomo009 (Oct 19, 2011)

jam3v said:


> Problem is scouting.. It's impossible to scout Terran until like 20-something food if they wall off (and any good Terran does) w/ Protoss.
> 
> That's always been my main complaint about balance with this game, is scouting is almost impossible in a lot of situations, making it hard to know what to build.
> 
> ...



Just scout earlier haha. 

Un cloaked banshees against zerg should get you nothing, unless that zerg is doing something strange or screwed up their build.


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## Daiephir (Oct 19, 2011)

You can get Banshees before Lair tech, meaning he'll only have his queen out, you snipe it and you have the mineral line to yourself


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## Tomo009 (Oct 19, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> You can get Banshees before Lair tech, meaning he'll only have his queen out, you snipe it and you have the mineral line to yourself



2 queens vs 1 banshee isn't looking so good for you haha.

EDIT: Plus if they're expecting it (or are paranoid) spores will be on the way. I have a friend who uses banshees too often an I never lose anymore because I have spores for him every time.


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## Daiephir (Oct 19, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> 2 queens vs 1 banshee isn't looking so good for you haha.
> 
> EDIT: Plus if they're expecting it (or are paranoid) spores will be on the way. I have a friend who uses banshees too often an I never lose anymore because I have spores for him every time.



I've actually won games with A cloaked banshee before, when I was still Gold, so I dont know, I've never lost if I've opened Banshee vs Zerg XD


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## Tomo009 (Oct 20, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> I've actually won games with A cloaked banshee before, when I was still Gold, so I dont know, I've never lost if I've opened Banshee vs Zerg XD



Cloak is all good, but uncloaked all you can do against zerg is be mildly annoying unless they are horribly unprepared. But I'm usually pretty prepared for cloaked banshees anyway, lost too many games against them a while ago.


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## Daiephir (Oct 20, 2011)

Well thats the thing, if I dont go cloack, I have 2 of them, instead of only having an invisible one, either way, no aa for Zerg = lulz to be had for me


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## leandroab (Oct 20, 2011)

I've been playing some TD maps lately... Fun shit as always.


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## Tomo009 (Oct 21, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Well thats the thing, if I dont go cloack, I have 2 of them, instead of only having an invisible one, either way, no aa for Zerg = lulz to be had for me



If they don't have AA by the time you have 2! banshees they deserve a loss lol.


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## Daiephir (Oct 21, 2011)

Bronze league man, I'm a conqueror in there  and it kind of worked in Gold too, like I'd get a shot or two on a drone, kill it, fall back, he'd move back his queen to inject, repeat, so I'd still get kills, but not a game ending harass XD


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## fantom (Oct 21, 2011)

By the time it takes you to get a single banshee to a Zerg base, you could've just dropped hellions and/or marines with a medivac. If they have lings/roaches/blings, just put your crap back in the medivac, move, and repeat.


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## Tomo009 (Oct 22, 2011)

fantom said:


> By the time it takes you to get a single banshee to a Zerg base, you could've just dropped hellions and/or marines with a medivac. If they have lings/roaches/blings, just put your crap back in the medivac, move, and repeat.



This guy knows how to be properly annoying. Just remember that early hellions are a huge investment if mech isn't your focus.


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## Mexi (Oct 22, 2011)

Blizzcon's Heart of the Swarm trailer


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## Tomo009 (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm skeptical about some of the additions in HotS, though it is still a work in progress I guess. Protoss seem to have gotten a little bit of the short end of a stick here, at least from first impressions.


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## Daiephir (Oct 22, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> I'm skeptical about some of the additions in HotS, though it is still a work in progress I guess. Protoss seem to have gotten a little bit of the short end of a stick here, at least from first impressions.



Zergs have Lurkers again!


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## Tomo009 (Oct 23, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Zergs have Lurkers again!



erm, not according to the blizzcon announcements lol, unless they added stuff today?

EDIT: I'm linking that they gave Hydra speed back though.

Can't judge the new siege unit and Overseer replacement, sounds like a flying defiler.

Burrow moving banelings, lol.


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## Daiephir (Oct 23, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> erm, not according to the blizzcon announcements lol, unless they added stuff today?
> 
> EDIT: I'm linking that they gave Hydra speed back though.
> 
> ...



The swarm host, it's mecanics look alot like those of a lurker, burrowed attacking units that'll probably kill marines sooooo easily (and the Thor is the new Mothership XD)


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## Tomo009 (Oct 23, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> The swarm host, it's mecanics look alot like those of a lurker, burrowed attacking units that'll probably kill marines sooooo easily (and the Thor is the new Mothership XD)



It has pretty different mechanics to the lurker really, when burrowed it spawns units, it attacks unburrowed.

Also, lol at basically reverting to goliaths with a different name.


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## Daiephir (Oct 23, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> It has pretty different mechanics to the lurker really, when burrowed it spawns units, it attacks unburrowed.
> 
> Also, lol at basically reverting to goliaths with a different name.



The swarm host needs to be burrowed to spawn its units, like a lurker, and those things have like 90 HPm so tanks dont 1 shot them T_T


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## Tomo009 (Oct 23, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> The swarm host needs to be burrowed to spawn its units, like a lurker, and those things have like 90 HPm so tanks dont 1 shot them T_T



Lol which is what I said, Lurkers didn't spawn anything though, these guys seem to function like a tank unburrowed and like a broodlord burrowed. You would hope tanks wouldn't one shot a siege unit rofl.


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## Daiephir (Oct 23, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Lol which is what I said, Lurkers didn't spawn anything though, these guys seem to function like a tank unburrowed and like a broodlord burrowed. You would hope tanks wouldn't one shot a siege unit rofl.



Of course, what I mean is that the animation (did you see it at Blizzcon?) is similar to that of a Lurker since it sends things towars the ennemy, but for the Lurker, it was spikes, killing all my marines T_T


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## Tomo009 (Oct 23, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Of course, what I mean is that the animation (did you see it at Blizzcon?) is similar to that of a Lurker since it sends things towars the ennemy, but for the Lurker, it was spikes, killing all my marines T_T



Marines countered Lurkers, you only needed like 400 apm!


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## Daiephir (Oct 23, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Marines countered Lurkers, you only needed like 400 apm!



thats about 350 more than what I could do, I was soooo not Gosu in Brood War XD


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## Daiephir (Oct 25, 2011)

Ultra evil double post incoming

Probably gonna start playing Zerg while continuing as Terrans when HotS comes out, the Viper and the new Ultra burrow-charge attack look soooo nice.


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## Rock4ever (Oct 26, 2011)

I dont care how much they weren't used in multiplayer, Protoss losing carriers is fucking sacrilege.


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## Tomo009 (Oct 26, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Ultra evil double post incoming
> 
> Probably gonna start playing Zerg while continuing as Terrans when HotS comes out, the Viper and the new Ultra burrow-charge attack look soooo nice.



Haha, better start now . Zerg isn't easy and pretty much requires 100 apm fr macro alone. Also, not sure if the ultra upgrade alone will be that good, they will still be huge and clumsy, taking up all the screen space. However they should have synergy with the new and improved, no longer useless hydras.



Rock4ever said:


> I dont care how much they weren't used in multiplayer, Protoss losing carriers is fucking sacrilege.



They almost weren't in SC2 in the first place, I like them too, the replacement doesn't seem as interesting.


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## Daiephir (Oct 26, 2011)

I think they shrunk the Ultra's size a bit in Heart of the Swarm, so they'll be more usable, but I cant find the link where I supposedly saw that T_T''


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## Tomo009 (Oct 27, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> I think they shrunk the Ultra's size a bit in Heart of the Swarm, so they'll be more usable, but I cant find the link where I supposedly saw that T_T''



I doubt they'd shrink them, but we'll see.

I want dem hydras! WoL hyrdras were absolutely useless, can't believe they thought they should change the staple unit into a defense only unit against one strategy from one race.


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## Cadavuh (Oct 29, 2011)

Are you kidding me man? Hydras can be used effectively in many situations. I've seen it many times.


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## Tomo009 (Oct 29, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Are you kidding me man? Hydras can be used effectively in many situations. I've seen it many times.



They're so hard to use well, only good for defense or well coordinated drops. I hope in HotS there will be a decent hydra defense build until you get the upgrade at hive tech.

I kind of think they are trying to get Zerg to get Hive early in general with HotS, most of the additions have been put at Hive tech haha.

Vipers could be really interesting, give Queens detection and a lot of Zerg problems will be simplified.


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## Prydogga (Oct 29, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Are you kidding me man? Hydras can be used effectively in many situations. I've seen it many times.



This. But mainly only in less than grand masters situations.


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## Daiephir (Oct 29, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Are you kidding me man? Hydras can be used effectively in many situations. I've seen it many times.



I see them die personally, under Hellion fire, Marauder fire, Banshees, BCs (derp ), Thors, so yeah, IMO, they need a good buffing, they were a cool unit.


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## Tomo009 (Oct 29, 2011)

Prydogga said:


> This. But mainly only in less than grand masters situations.



You don't want to practice things that are bad though haha, HotS should give Hydras a more practical use.



Daiephir said:


> I see them die personally, under Hellion fire, Marauder fire, Banshees, BCs (derp ), Thors, so yeah, IMO, they need a good buffing, they were a cool unit.



Actually they aren't bad against Marauders and are good against Banshees and BCs. But when do you ever see BCs in ZvT haha. Even mid-late game banshees are rare, you usually just keep getting marine/marauder dropped at that point. Or hellions if they're mech...


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## fantom (Oct 29, 2011)

I like that they are trying to de-emphasize the death balls with units that work better alone. The terran map control unit looks awesome. The guy with that idea needs a prize. But terran getting a unit to replace siege tanks for defense!? Huh?

Most of the changes seem to be hard counters (anti-armor terran OP unit. anti seige unit for zerg. anti mass muta unit for toss... wait wasn't that the archon?!) Hard counters are depressing. And the removal of the mothership and carriers is more like... we can't balance these things because everyone can focus fire too easily so let's just get rid of them.


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## Daiephir (Oct 29, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> You don't want to practice things that are bad though haha, HotS should give Hydras a more practical use.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually they aren't bad against Marauders and are good against Banshees and BCs. But when do you ever see BCs in ZvT haha. Even mid-late game banshees are rare, you usually just keep getting marine/marauder dropped at that point. Or hellions if they're mech...



Enough Marauders kill Hydras even if they're light armor type  I always seem to end up getting BC vs either race, because they survive more than vikings and I can punish my opponent so badly if they didnt make any corruptors (which they shouldn't since I've been tearing up their 3rd and 4rth with a ball of marines, marauders and medivacs) and suddenly BCs in his basekilling his key structures while I push out in the front.  (Also, I feel like in HotS, Protoss are gonna be a dead race, I hope I'm mistaken)


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## Tomo009 (Oct 30, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Enough Marauders kill Hydras even if they're light armor type  I always seem to end up getting BC vs either race, because they survive more than vikings and I can punish my opponent so badly if they didnt make any corruptors (which they shouldn't since I've been tearing up their 3rd and 4rth with a ball of marines, marauders and medivacs) and suddenly BCs in his basekilling his key structures while I push out in the front.  (Also, I feel like in HotS, Protoss are gonna be a dead race, I hope I'm mistaken)



Enough Hydras kill Marauders and only slightly cost inefficiently (almost NOTHING zerg has is close to cost effective, unlike Terran.... Do like my infestors though)

You serious? Sounds like Protoss is getting all the holes in their game filled in, while Terran is getting even more tools on top of their already annoying diversity. Not that the Zerg changes are bad either.

And BCs are a bad choice against Zerg, they are far from cost efficient and can be basically destroyed by any Zerg air or hydras. Terran just quite simply has far better options, Battle Cruisers are mostly effective in Viking wars I believe, against Zerg all I can really think of would be destroying Hydraless ground only armies or as a final push unit or GTFO of my game unit like Zerg Ultra and Broodlord are currently.


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## Daiephir (Oct 30, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> Enough Hydras kill Marauders and only slightly cost inefficiently (almost NOTHING zerg has is close to cost effective, unlike Terran.... Do like my infestors though)
> 
> You serious? Sounds like Protoss is getting all the holes in their game filled in, while Terran is getting even more tools on top of their already annoying diversity. Not that the Zerg changes are bad either.
> 
> And BCs are a bad choice against Zerg, they are far from cost efficient and can be basically destroyed by any Zerg air or hydras. Terran just quite simply has far better options, Battle Cruisers are mostly effective in Viking wars I believe, against Zerg all I can really think of would be destroying Hydraless ground only armies or as a final push unit or GTFO of my game unit like Zerg Ultra and Broodlord are currently.



Yeah, I do think they are gone: 1: a harrass unit that doesnt do actually damage,
2: a unit that can copy another unit but cant copy massives for some odd reason
3: the tempest, which is actually cool

BUT, to have that, they need to remove the motherhip (apparently only HuK and 1 of my friends used it) and the Carrier (while not getting enough use, it should not be removed entirely)


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## Tomo009 (Oct 30, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Yeah, I do think they are gone: 1: a harrass unit that doesnt do actually damage,
> 2: a unit that can copy another unit but cant copy massives for some odd reason
> 3: the tempest, which is actually cool
> 
> BUT, to have that, they need to remove the motherhip (apparently only HuK and 1 of my friends used it) and the Carrier (while not getting enough use, it should not be removed entirely)



That new harass unit is going to be godlike, oh my god that will ruin zerg so badly. They basically gave the overseer in a super buffed version to protoss.

Because if they could copy massive it would be absolutely broken, I think it could still be super powerful in its common form. Think about it, it lets protoss change their composition to be more versatile. Protoss units aren't bad at all, they just need to be used well to be at their full potential, with some terran support they would be godlike. I don't see it being as effective in ZvT though, maybe get themselves a few infestors or something. The tempest is pretty boring, it's just a unit to kill mutas... woo...

They should have done some tweaking with the carriers, they are such a cool unit but just needed a buff or two. They didn't try ANYTHING now they are being removed. I can agree with mothership removal though, no matter what they do they're kinda screwed.


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## Daiephir (Oct 30, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> That new harass unit is going to be godlike, oh my god that will ruin zerg so badly. They basically gave the overseer in a super buffed version to protoss.
> 
> Because if they could copy massive it would be absolutely broken, I think it could still be super powerful in its common form. Think about it, it lets protoss change their composition to be more versatile. Protoss units aren't bad at all, they just need to be used well to be at their full potential, with some terran support they would be godlike. I don't see it being as effective in ZvT though, maybe get themselves a few infestors or something. The tempest is pretty boring, it's just a unit to kill mutas... woo...
> 
> They should have done some tweaking with the carriers, they are such a cool unit but just needed a buff or two. They didn't try ANYTHING now they are being removed. I can agree with mothership removal though, no matter what they do they're kinda screwed.



Depending on the cost, you might be right or wrong, lets say its cost 200/200, copying a siege tank, a banshee, a hellion, a viking, a flying heal bus (who the fuck would copy THAT anyways XD), a raven, any barracks unit becomes a waste of money,yeah sure you can to their abilities, doing some banshee harrass as Toss, or helping your deathball with siege tanks, you could've gotten more units for said deathball. I dont know if you understand my point of view here  (I hope the Tempests ground attack is worth it, or else its just gonna do like the carrier which wasn't movable like the one SC1 had and not get any use, at all).

EDIT: Also, a Oracle + DT/Warp Prism drop at your mineral line would be evil though


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## Tomo009 (Oct 31, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Depending on the cost, you might be right or wrong, lets say its cost 200/200, copying a siege tank, a banshee, a hellion, a viking, a flying heal bus (who the fuck would copy THAT anyways XD), a raven, any barracks unit becomes a waste of money,yeah sure you can to their abilities, doing some banshee harrass as Toss, or helping your deathball with siege tanks, you could've gotten more units for said deathball. I dont know if you understand my point of view here  (I hope the Tempests ground attack is worth it, or else its just gonna do like the carrier which wasn't movable like the one SC1 had and not get any use, at all).
> 
> EDIT: Also, a Oracle + DT/Warp Prism drop at your mineral line would be evil though



The tempest won't be useless, it will hard counter the hell out of mutas, because apparently soft counters aren't enough. Did protoss really have any game ending problems with mutas? Mutas never seemed like all that powerful an option fr me against protoss unless they get too many collosi and neglect their stalker count.

And copying tanks could definitely be useful, you can't think in straight up cost terms (seriously, otherwise Terran would be far and away the best race in the game with how cost effective they are, plus mules), think about how much utility a siege tank would offer to protoss. Ghosts even. Protoss have a lot of trouble with ghosts, imagine fighting back and throwing out some sneak EMPs on the terran's ghosts first, then destroying them with Psionic Storm.

Also something I didn't consider until State of the Game, late game they could copy an SCV, build an orbital as their 3/4/5th expansion and reap the rewards of mules and if they want, the entire terran tree. Could do the same against zerg, but I don't see it being as effective with how inherently cost ineffective zerg are, the protoss would have to be ahead in bases against the zerg already for this to be effective.


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## Daiephir (Oct 31, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> The tempest won't be useless, it will hard counter the hell out of mutas, because apparently soft counters aren't enough. Did protoss really have any game ending problems with mutas? Mutas never seemed like all that powerful an option fr me against protoss unless they get too many collosi and neglect their stalker count.
> 
> And copying tanks could definitely be useful, you can't think in straight up cost terms (seriously, otherwise Terran would be far and away the best race in the game with how cost effective they are, plus mules), think about how much utility a siege tank would offer to protoss. Ghosts even. Protoss have a lot of trouble with ghosts, imagine fighting back and throwing out some sneak EMPs on the terran's ghosts first, then destroying them with Psionic Storm.
> 
> Also something I didn't consider until State of the Game, late game they could copy an SCV, build an orbital as their 3/4/5th expansion and reap the rewards of mules and if they want, the entire terran tree. Could do the same against zerg, but I don't see it being as effective with how inherently cost ineffective zerg are, the protoss would have to be ahead in bases against the zerg already for this to be effective.



True, apparenlty Archons aren't enough against Mutas XD and I think I rmeember the devs saying at Blizzcon that they'll nerf it if Toss go fr too many Mules.


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## Tomo009 (Nov 1, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> True, apparenlty Archons aren't enough against Mutas XD and I think I rmeember the devs saying at Blizzcon that they'll nerf it if Toss go fr too many Mules.



If they get an SCV and build a barracks, the thought of zealot/marine is just scary. Lings would be useless, would have to mass blings and those things are not cheap.


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## obZ3n (Nov 1, 2011)

I cannot think of any pratical use of the swarmhost, the viper though looks very useful and will greatly help with ZvT

Would anyone want to play some monobattles sometime with me and my mate?


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## Daiephir (Nov 1, 2011)

obZ3n said:


> I cannot think of any pratical use of the swarmhost, the viper though looks very useful and will greatly help with ZvT
> 
> Would anyone want to play some monobattles sometime with me and my mate?



Erm, siege tank for zerg, replaces the Lurker since Blizz didn't put it back in the game, what kind of zerg do you play to not want more map control  (and, I might add, if a guys turtles up [stop look at us Terrans!] you can break his siege line faster and you dont need to get BroodLords to do so)


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## Tomo009 (Nov 2, 2011)

obZ3n said:


> I cannot think of any pratical use of the swarmhost, the viper though looks very useful and will greatly help with ZvT
> 
> Would anyone want to play some monobattles sometime with me and my mate?



I can see it being used to force engagements and make Terrans come out of their base much earlier than they want to. Will allow Zerg to be a little more aggressive, an interesting unit I think, though it doesn't seem particularly powerful at the moment.


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## Daiephir (Nov 2, 2011)

Cool story BTW: 2 of my friends and I played some custom games instead of 3v3ing earlier today, we each played as our worst race, so I play Terran, one plays Toss and the other Zerg, the matchup was Zerg, Zerg, Terran respectively, it was a fuuuuun game, but damn dont I know how to spend my money as zerg lol and the thing that was cool, I actually had decent (ie sub bronze) larvae injects  like my queens had alot of energy, but they weren't maxed out, so I'm content with that, also, Hive tech ''rush'' is quite funny when both of your opponents aren't really opponents at all XD


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## fantom (Nov 14, 2011)

Not to revive an old thread... but have any of you Terrans been paying attention to the warp prism type "special tactics" that WhiteRa does? I started doing multiprong zealot drop/warp in as Protoss against Terran, and I just can't see how to stop it easily without building tons of turrets or spreading my army thin. I play random so I'd really like to hear some idea on how to counter it outside of all-in rush. It seems to destroy anyone who uses 1 control group for rine/rauder (assuming they have more than 1 base running).

And the speed upgrade is utterly ridiculous...

Example vide. It's against zerg, but you can see how the warp prism harassment really changes the course of the game. Most of the warp ins are caught by Husky, but you can see the annoyance of a few zealots/dts hitting all the bases sequentially. Imagine when he does it with 2 or 3 warp prisms at the same time


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## Daiephir (Nov 14, 2011)

His 1st warp prism was queued at around the eleventh minute mark, by that point any good terran should have at least 1 e-bay, and some air units, if possible, should have control of some watch towers and ideally 2-3 vikings patrolling the outskirts of the map (i.e: where you dont have vision from the towers) so you should theoratically see it coming and build a turret accordingly (if your vikings didn't kill it already).

also, as Terran, turtle the hell up until you have a decent AA force that can follow with a speed prism (i.e, not BCs XD) and then move out, stay on 3 or 4 bases.


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## Daiephir (Nov 15, 2011)

HuK getting demoted to Code A by Leenock, makes me a sad panda (NesTea got demoted by HuK and MMA though, which is bad too)


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## Tomo009 (Nov 15, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> His 1st warp prism was queued at around the eleventh minute mark, by that point any good terran should have at least 1 e-bay, and some air units, if possible, should have control of some watch towers and ideally 2-3 vikings patrolling the outskirts of the map (i.e: where you dont have vision from the towers) so you should theoratically see it coming and build a turret accordingly (if your vikings didn't kill it already).
> 
> also, as Terran, turtle the hell up until you have a decent AA force that can follow with a speed prism (i.e, not BCs XD) and then move out, stay on 3 or 4 bases.



It's not really wise to build blind Vikings, they are pretty much useless if toss goes for gateway + templar (+ immortal) which is pretty common really


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## Daiephir (Nov 15, 2011)

While true, you can force Collossi if you have a mainly marine force (2 rax reactor and 1 rax tech lab) and then those vikings are useful, but yeah, dont make them unless for nothing, but they're usually not useless


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## Tomo009 (Nov 15, 2011)

As long as you hide the vikings, I doubt they would go collossus at all if they see vikings first haha


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## Daiephir (Nov 15, 2011)

Of course  I usually burrow my vikings to keep them out of sight (see what I did there? ) and then if they dont go collossus to kill them marines, you basically a-move his base cause nothing that he has will destroy them, stalkers die to marines/marauders, immortals die to marines, HTs die to marines (unless he has storm researched T_T''), phoenix, void rays, carriers, everything dies to marines (MUHAHAHAHAHAHA! IMBA UNIT FTW!)


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## Tomo009 (Nov 15, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Of course  I usually burrow my vikings to keep them out of sight (see what I did there? ) and then if they dont go collossus to kill them marines, you basically a-move his base cause nothing that he has will destroy them, stalkers die to marines/marauders, immortals die to marines, HTs die to marines (unless he has storm researched T_T''), phoenix, void rays, carriers, everything dies to marines (MUHAHAHAHAHAHA! IMBA UNIT FTW!)



Marines are just really versatile, they can even defeat their hard counters like banelings with micro. Marines are a bit of a SC:BW stuck in SC2 imo lol, without real Hydras and Dragoons (despite the pathing) zerg and protoss are forced to be much more specialised in this game.


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## Cadavuh (Nov 15, 2011)

Why is BW superior to SC2?


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## Daiephir (Nov 15, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Why is BW superior to SC2?



It is not, the mecanics are totally different.

Why are you stupid and want to stir shit up?


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## Tomo009 (Nov 16, 2011)

Cadavuh said:


> Why is BW superior to SC2?



That's not what I meant at all, SC2 is a very different game to SC BW, though it uses a lot of the same mechanics. I believe that almost everything about SC2 is improved from BW, I don't agree with every single design decision, but most I do. The hard counters actually don't shallow the game at all, it just makes for more ability to influence what your opponent does, though I believe that is pretty much in Terran's favor in most matchups at the moment (but I'm not exactly a pro so my opinion probably doesn't mean much).

So a pretty huge thing I haven't seen discussed, I hear Blizzard are bringing back the random chance to hit enemies on the highground, I think that will have a HUGE impact on SC2 with how important chokes on ramps are in the metagame. I once again see this being an advantage for terran with their masses of marines firing FAST, shots are bound to get through. I think this also will affect protoss pretty badly, their Collosi won't be invincible anymore on the cliffs.


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## Daiephir (Nov 16, 2011)

Where did you see that info? (I think Zerg are the one having a disadvantage, they're clearly UP compared to BW while Toss with 1.4 are now on equal footing with Terran)


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## fantom (Nov 17, 2011)

I'm so behind at reading through this whole thread...



Tomo009 said:


> Also something I didn't consider until State of the Game, late game they could copy an SCV, build an orbital as their 3/4/5th expansion and reap the rewards of mules and if they want, the entire terran tree. Could do the same against zerg, but I don't see it being as effective with how inherently cost ineffective zerg are, the protoss would have to be ahead in bases against the zerg already for this to be effective.



Protoss with mules late game... that just seems wrong. Protoss with 7 orbitals on 2 mining bases. Just seems too good. You could sacrifice a ton of probes for a bigger death ball of stalker/colossus.



Daiephir said:


> True, apparenlty Archons aren't enough against Mutas XD and I think I rmeember the devs saying at Blizzcon that they'll nerf it if Toss go fr too many Mules.



Typical... they don't nerf it when Terran goes for too many mules. lol


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## Daiephir (Nov 18, 2011)

fantom said:


> Typical... they don't nerf it when Terran goes for too many mules. lol



Well sorry, apprently you're forgetting that chronoboosts exists and you can get it every 25 energy instead of 50  besides when you get capped, good terrans dont auto-mule, they keep the energy for scans to pick off creep tumors and see where the other army is so you dont get caught unsieged, and you seem to forget that the terrans need an addon on their CC's to actually get mules.


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 18, 2011)

Have you even tried using Archons vs mutas?? Remember, this is SC2 archons, not BW archons. Mass Muta right now in the current metagame, is retardedly OP. Combine with the 40+ spine crawler builds that zergs have been using lately, its unreal. You have to have PERFECT storming or mess up mighty bad to lose if you get past the 25 muta mark.

Thats why Protoss is all about timing attacks; you lose if you let zerg get any lategame armies. Or if terran gets vikings and ghosts combined. That whole "deathball" crap is non-existant past masters league.

As for the warp-prism drop defending; Make sure when you play terran that you NEVER rally your rax's to your main army.. Always rally inside your base; if you fear the warp drop, rally them right above your ramp and if you see it happening, you have units there to clean it up. Warp prism drops are pretty weak because the units inside, its mainly used as a deterrant to keep terran annoyed. It doesnt do massive damage like 4 marauders and a medivac can do to buildings. Make sure you always run your scvs instead of fighting the zealots too.


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## Daiephir (Nov 18, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> As for the warp-prism drop defending;* Make sure when you play terran that you NEVER rally your rax's to your main army.. Always rally inside your base*; if you fear the warp drop, rally them right above your ramp and if you see it happening, you have units there to clean it up. Warp prism drops are pretty weak because the units inside, its mainly used as a deterrant to keep terran annoyed. It doesnt do massive damage like 4 marauders and a medivac can do to buildings. Make sure you always run your scvs instead of fighting the zealots too.



I never though of that, I usually rally to the bottom of my ramp  God I'm scrub


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## fantom (Nov 19, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Well sorry, apprently you're forgetting that chronoboosts exists and you can get it every 25 energy instead of 50  besides when you get capped, good terrans dont auto-mule, they keep the energy for scans to pick off creep tumors and see where the other army is so you dont get caught unsieged, and you seem to forget that the terrans need an addon on their CC's to actually get mules.



No need to be defensive, it was more discussion than anything else  I'm just talking from my own experience. When I play Terran in 1v1, I typically have about 6-7 CCs in my main so I can mass rines or hellions with tank/thor support off 2 base. It is pretty OP because the mules don't interrupt mining each other, so it's like mining off 3-4 bases with a single choke and less gas. And you'll have plenty of energy for those scans... The first extra CC pays off within a few minutes. From there, we are talking free CCs from mules (including upgrade to orbital costs).

Assuming the game gets past 15 min or so, you end up with a ridiculously high mineral economy that most people don't expect off 2 base with a tank wall. Oh, and since mules don't prevent SCVs from training (it's like free warp in), you can actually build more SCVs off 2 CCs early and match most Zerg drone production rates. As far as supply cap... free late game expo with mule mining that doesn't count towards supply... amazing. The only thing as OP in terms of "free units" in the late game is when Zergs build like 30 crawlers, make 30 supply of units, then cancel the crawlers to go over 200 supply. As for Terran late game, when you mine out of your first 2-3 bases, you have 7 extra CCs to fly out and mule mine at more vulnerable expos with lower risk then sending your SCVs (assuming it gets scouted after the mules have been a live a bit of time).

So maybe my 1v1 play style is a bit "abusive" to the mule mechanics, but I suggest you try building extra CCs early on. It works pretty well in platinum/diamond league. I don't have the micro and multitasking to get into masters


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## thatguy87 (Nov 24, 2011)

I love this game, but am admittedly HORRIBLE at it, like most games that aren't RPGs. Does anyone know how to beat the 20m mission on Hard with all hives destroyed? shit destroys me every time. 

Great fucking games, all the Starcrafts, and the books are actually really good as well. Props to Blizzard for such a fantastic franchise.


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## Daiephir (Nov 25, 2011)

fantom said:


> No need to be defensive, it was more discussion than anything else  I'm just talking from my own experience. When I play Terran in 1v1, I typically have about 6-7 CCs in my main so I can mass rines or hellions with tank/thor support off 2 base. It is pretty OP because the mules don't interrupt mining each other, so it's like mining off 3-4 bases with a single choke and less gas. And you'll have plenty of energy for those scans... The first extra CC pays off within a few minutes. From there, we are talking free CCs from mules (including upgrade to orbital costs).
> 
> Assuming the game gets past 15 min or so, you end up with a ridiculously high mineral economy that most people don't expect off 2 base with a tank wall. Oh, and since mules don't prevent SCVs from training (it's like free warp in), you can actually build more SCVs off 2 CCs early and match most Zerg drone production rates. As far as supply cap... free late game expo with mule mining that doesn't count towards supply... amazing. The only thing as OP in terms of "free units" in the late game is when Zergs build like 30 crawlers, make 30 supply of units, then cancel the crawlers to go over 200 supply. As for Terran late game, when you mine out of your first 2-3 bases, you have 7 extra CCs to fly out and mule mine at more vulnerable expos with lower risk then sending your SCVs (assuming it gets scouted after the mules have been a live a bit of time).
> 
> So maybe my 1v1 play style is a bit "abusive" to the mule mechanics, but I suggest you try building extra CCs early on. It works pretty well in platinum/diamond league. I don't have the micro and multitasking to get into masters



Why build a shit ton of CC? waste of mineral, I build, at most, 4 during a game and fly them elsewhere as needed, in the late game,you'll stll have a shit ton of mule since they charge while flying.

(Thatguy, read the TL forums for that, or, Liquipedia)


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 25, 2011)

thatguy87 said:


> I love this game, but am admittedly HORRIBLE at it, like most games that aren't RPGs. Does anyone know how to beat the 20m mission on Hard with all hives destroyed? shit destroys me every time.
> 
> Great fucking games, all the Starcrafts, and the books are actually really good as well. Props to Blizzard for such a fantastic franchise.



I forget which mission that is.. is that the one where theres 4 hives in various areas and the leviathan keeps coming, you start in the top right?

Oh well either way, just mass marine/marauder/medic kills pretty much everything in the game alone, I think I beat brutal with pretty much only that.. Or if you want to do even more; Mass thor/hellion with healing unit (was it sci vessel?) - just A-move your way to each base, try building 2 armies and attacking two at a time.


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## Tomo009 (Nov 28, 2011)

Daiephir said:


> Why build a shit ton of CC? waste of mineral, I build, at most, 4 during a game and fly them elsewhere as needed, in the late game,you'll stll have a shit ton of mule since they charge while flying.
> 
> (Thatguy, read the TL forums for that, or, Liquipedia)



The reason is mules. They are REALLY worth it, mules are just absolutely ridiculous, many Terrans build extra CC so they can have instant mobile mining bases, they can literally mine anywhere for a HUGE spike of minerals (mules don't stop each other pathing apparently), they pay for themselves very easily and can allow terran to keep up with zerg production late game.


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 28, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> The reason is mules. They are REALLY worth it, mules are just absolutely ridiculous, many Terrans build extra CC so they can have instant mobile mining bases, they can literally mine anywhere for a HUGE spike of minerals (mules don't stop each other pathing apparently), they pay for themselves very easily and can allow terran to keep up with zerg production late game.



Not quite, they are good but not worth building macro CC's.. You'll see one in 100+ pro games with a macro CC thats not meant to float off to expo soon.. (not including lategame planetary fortress walls)

Mules may give you a quick boost in minerals, but they drain your mineral patches VERY quick.. You have to mix where you drop your mules, because if you dropped all of them at your main, your main will mine out significantly faster; but if you spread them between your expos, you will prolong minerals and thats important.

Its the same with taking a gold base as your 3rd; if you do that, you get a momentary burst of minerals but once that mines out (they go much faster than normal bases), you'll be down a base compared to your opponent who took a normal base.. 

Dont macro CC unless you plan on floating them out; getting 5-6 CC's in one base is just horrible play, regardless of how many mules you make.


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## Daiephir (Nov 28, 2011)

Tomo009 said:


> The reason is mules. They are REALLY worth it, mules are just absolutely ridiculous, many Terrans build extra CC so they can have instant mobile mining bases, they can literally mine anywhere for a HUGE spike of minerals (mules don't stop each other pathing apparently), they pay for themselves very easily and can allow terran to keep up with zerg production late game.



I'd rather have a Planetary Wall with turrets to shut down attacks paths than mining out my patches too quickly 
Especially vs Zerg, and you went vikings so no broodlords can break said wall


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## Tomo009 (Nov 28, 2011)

NickCormier said:


> Not quite, they are good but not worth building macro CC's.. You'll see one in 100+ pro games with a macro CC thats not meant to float off to expo soon.. (not including lategame planetary fortress walls)
> 
> Mules may give you a quick boost in minerals, but they drain your mineral patches VERY quick.. You have to mix where you drop your mules, because if you dropped all of them at your main, your main will mine out significantly faster; but if you spread them between your expos, you will prolong minerals and thats important.
> 
> ...



I was assuming you would spread them out over multiple bases haha, don't know where I implied you would only sit on 2-3 bases. I don't think they've been explored enough yet, I'm sure there will be some magical number that is optimal for every situation. Using up the mineral patches quicker doesn't matter as much when you have multiple bases, of course like ever strategy it would have a weakness in air units, would need good defense against mutas/voidrays etc.


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## Daiephir (Dec 11, 2011)

Guys, great news, I just got 6pooled on Xel'Naga Caverns  I managed to finish my depot wall just before his lings hit me, I had SCVs repairing and 1 marine shooting them down, he just went GG


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## Faine (Jan 27, 2013)

Anyone else play? I just recently started playing. Add " faine " if you wanna play with me.


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