# Hey, Wikipedia, I think you might want to give in to Muslim demands.



## Xtremevillan (Feb 8, 2008)

Wikipedia: 107,000 demand Wikipedia remove this image of Muhammad

I don't want a "server cannot be found at wikipedia.org"


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## Thrashmanzac (Feb 8, 2008)

i want a t shirt with that picture on it.
it will be so much better than my "nuke the whales" t shirt.


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## Xtremevillan (Feb 8, 2008)

Oh, I also equate this to the Ten Commandments.

#2 is you can't make a graven image of God on any kind of media.

Sistine Chapel ceiling - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

GG Christians.


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## Mastodon (Feb 8, 2008)

haris haseem said:


> "Please remove these illustrations and respect the peaceful request by vote. I dont want to see this again on any other things too,"



What the hell is this supposed to mean? Is it supposed to be a threat?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

The comments on that article are fucking gold.


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## halsinden (Feb 8, 2008)

guys, i'm slightly confused here...

this isn't an image of allah / god. this is allah's chosen profit, mohammad. so far as i was aware, there weren't any restrictions on depicting the prophet, but a big no-no should you ever even write allah in his full invocation, right?

H


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

No, they actually don't like people depicting the prophet. Imagine if you painted Allah bending Muhammad over, they'd probably literally shit their pants in disbelief.


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## halsinden (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> No, they actually don't like people depicting the prophet. Imagine if you painted Allah bending Muhammad over, they'd probably literally shit their pants in disbelief.



i'm just so surprised by that, really.

and the initial comment received from the UK chap saying that he "doesn't want to see this again" - well... don't go onto the page, surely?

it worries me that people want to remove art its publication because they don't like it. not good.

H


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## Metal Ken (Feb 8, 2008)

Let me offend some muslims:


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

Surely you can see in that picture the alien space craft in the background, and all the folks in that pic still have their space helmets on, further proving that Mohammad was an alien from space, or at least received an anal probe!  

I can see why they wouldn't want that news getting around!


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## halsinden (Feb 8, 2008)

look, i don't mean to sound harsh, but - allah was actually bi-curious.

buddha was just a fat, selfish prick and i heard that vishnu had a shady past in 'exotic male dancing'.

H


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

halsinden said:


> i'm just so surprised by that, really.
> 
> and the initial comment received from the UK chap saying that he "doesn't want to see this again" - well... don't go onto the page, surely?
> 
> ...



Their religion forbids the image of Muhammad from being used in art, because they feel it promotes the worship of the image of the prophet, rather than the worship of their god. This is why you normally see him portrayed like this:






In typical Muslim fasion, they think they can force their views on the rest of the world. Since they take the position that theirs is the one true faith, the concept of freedom of speech and choice is irrelevant to them. Earthly laws are nothing comapred to the will of their god. So...


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

Popsyche said:


> Surely you can see in that picture the alien space craft in the background, and all the folks in that pic still have their space helmets on, further proving that Mohammad was an alien from space, or at least received an anal probe!
> 
> I can see why they wouldn't want that news getting around!





The nice aliens even brought them this rock that they can run around once a year, while screaming out a bunch of ancient jibberish.






Someone tell Tom Cruise that they missed the trip on the alien spaceship by a few centuries.


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## -K4G- (Feb 8, 2008)

dude that is a very bad thing to say. gotta respect other people's religion. you dont see me write the same thing to jews or christians here do you?


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> dude that is a very bad thing to say. gotta respect other people's religion. you dont see me write the same thing to jews or christians here do you?



You absolutely see me say the same thing about Christians and Jews around here. I tear into Mike Huckabee for trying to discount evolution or global warming on religious grounds. Or the fact that the planet is older than a few thousand years. Or the copernican model. Or Columbus discovering that the earth was round.

I respect anyone who respects me. I'm not tearing into _all_ Muslims. But when a vocal few open up their mouths and say something pompous and idiotic in an attempt to get *me* to conform to *their* beliefs, then I am going to respond with scorn and disrespect. Why? Because a) in America, we enjoy freedom of speech and b) I guarantee you I endure more scorn and disrespect for being an atheist.

Part of freedom of speach is tolerating the opinions of people that you completely diagree with. Honestly, if your faith is strong, then this is the sort of thing that should not be bothersome. It should roll right off your back like water off a duck. When people ridicule me for my lack of faith, it does not bother me, because I know that I am not the one devoting my entire life to the fantastical fabrications of an ancient civilization that lacked the scientific knowledge to explain how the universe works. If this bothers you, then maybe that is because part of you is questioning the merits of your beliefs.


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

/\ +100000  


Uh, Kill for God?


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## halsinden (Feb 8, 2008)

just thought i should even this out a tad...






H


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## -K4G- (Feb 8, 2008)

haha...its from a vehemence song. no relation to my religion.


nah the thing that bothers me it that a thread bout wiki's folly turned to a suckerpunch to a whole religion thats all.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> gotta respect other people's religion.



Why?


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## -K4G- (Feb 8, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Why?



dont you learn that in school?


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> dont you learn that in school?



Why is religion a magic word that suddenly makes your ideas immune to criticism?


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> nah the thing that bothers me it that a thread bout wiki's folly turned to a suckerpunch to a whole religion thats all.



Well, if some Muslims would actually speak out against the actions of the few deluded fools, maybe people wouldn't think that all Muslims are deluded fools. Christians in the southern reaches of this country are bad enough, but Muslims just sit idlely by while all sorts of crazies spew forth backwards, conformist drivel.

You don't see Christians demanding that the Cystine Chapel be levled because it depicts the face of god. And when you see them saying shit like the Constitution should be revised to conform to the bible--like Mike Huckabee did a few weeks ago--then I am one of the first to exercise my right to heap scorn and ridicule upon him.

When you really stop and think about it--a supernatural being pulled a wad of clay out of the ground, molded it into a man, blew air into his face, and he came alive--creationism makes absolutely no sense. The idea that the planet is only ~6000 years old is completely laughable.

If you also think about it, every religion is based upon the same sort of laughable mythology. Today, if a meteor fell out of the sky, scientists would study it to learn more about our universe. They wouldn't put it inside of a large black building, post guards, only allow certain people access to it, and hold a big annual gathering where millions of people circle around the building, pointing at it.

Is it really so hard to see that when the "holy books" speak of the casting out of the pagan religions of multiple gods, they are speaking of displacing the older faiths that people held true to at the time. How is this different than speaking out against religion now? If anything, at least I am only attacking religion with scientific evidence and rational thought, rather than the sword that your religion used to subjugate and enslave those who disagreed.

Sorry, but I won't allow you to come here and force everyone to walk on eggshells because you might get offended. This section of the forums encourages discussion and debate on political and religious issues, and there is frequently disagreement. If your skin isn't thick enough, then maybe you should stay out of this section. There are plenty of website advocating the silencing of free thought and the promotion of theorcratic governments. This is not one of them.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

I don't HAVE to do anything. I can talk about Jesus giving Muhammad a rimjob, because that's my right. You have the right to be offended by it, but that's about it. That's what freedom of speech is all about. I can be as ignorant as I want to. Of course, on this site I can still be censored because this isn't a democracy, it's Chris's personal website


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## Randy (Feb 8, 2008)

Comments on the Article said:


> I'd want it taken down too, if it was revealed that the founder of my religion was actually Pat Morita with a beard


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## Samer (Feb 8, 2008)

Islam, Christianity, and Judaism should not expect any special treatment, ether prove your theory or step aside.


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## -K4G- (Feb 8, 2008)

i didnt ask for any special treatment. and i dont need to prove my nor my religion's theory. 

i do respect freedom of speech. and if anyone dont agree with religion im fine with that. but from where im from, that kind of post could open a can of worms.

maybe a lil sensitivity perhaps?


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

As I am reading Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion I would like to say that I find religions _embarrassing_.


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## Thomas (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> maybe a lil sensitivity perhaps?


How is that _not_ asking for special treatment?


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## Samer (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> but from where im from, that kind of post could open a can of worms.
> 
> maybe a lil sensitivity perhaps?



Bring it man, opening a can of worms is what we need. The more light we shine on religions lies the easier it is to see it for what it is.


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## Drew (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> i didnt ask for any special treatment. and i dont need to prove my nor my religion's theory.
> 
> i do respect freedom of speech. and if anyone dont agree with religion im fine with that. but from where im from, that kind of post could open a can of worms.
> 
> maybe a lil sensitivity perhaps?



I really don't want to get into a massive religion debate here... 

But really, this strikes me as a question of intent. I don't think Wikipedia is looking to offend Muslims by posting that picture on the article about either Islam or Mohammed. Rather, they're fulfilling their intended purpose, providing informaiton about the particular topic that picture is included with. Most articles in an online or print encyclopedia do have pictures, so this one does as well. 

So, I'm having a hard time understanding the (limited - out of several hundred million Muslems in the world, their petition only numbers 107,000, and no telling how many of them are unique signers) Muslem outrage about this. The image is not intended as a slight against Mohammed, but rather is part of an article providing more information about him. It's informative. It's also, on some level, a relatively beautiful illustration. 

So, the intent is not to offend. This brings us around to Wikipedia's argument, that their policy is not to censor based upon any viewpoint. As taking an image down based upon religious beliefs is a pretty textbook example of censoring, then they're certainly within their rights to say no. 

And, honestly, since the burden of proof is kind of on the Muslems to demonstrate why it is a good idea for people of _all_ religious backgrounds to take the image down, I really just don't feel like they're proving their case here. 

And, to be literal for a moment, do you think anyone is REALLY worshipping their computer screen these days? I mean, aside from JJ at an anime porn site?


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## Randy (Feb 8, 2008)




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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

Drew said:


> And, to be literal for a moment, do you think anyone is REALLY worshipping their computer screen these days? I mean, aside from JJ at an anime porn site?



I wouldn't really call what I do worshipping, so much as MASTURBATING FURIOUSLY.


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## -K4G- (Feb 8, 2008)

Drew said:


> I really don't want to get into a massive religion debate here...


me either..



Drew said:


> But really, this strikes me as a question of intent. I don't think Wikipedia is looking to offend Muslims by posting that picture on the article about either Islam or Mohammed. Rather, they're fulfilling their intended purpose, providing informaiton about the particular topic that picture is included with. Most articles in an online or print encyclopedia do have pictures, so this one does as well.
> 
> So, I'm having a hard time understanding the (limited - out of several hundred million Muslems in the world, their petition only numbers 107,000, and no telling how many of them are unique signers) Muslem outrage about this. The image is not intended as a slight against Mohammed, but rather is part of an article providing more information about him. It's informative. It's also, on some level, a relatively beautiful illustration.
> 
> ...



haha..im not fazed by the whole wiki thingy. Its that Dave's initial post of Mecca as "The nice aliens even brought them this rock that they can run around once a year, while screaming out a bunch of ancient jibberish." that got me a little bothered.


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## Samer (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> me either..
> 
> 
> 
> haha..im not fazed by the whole wiki thingy. Its that Dave's initial post of Mecca as "The nice aliens even brought them this rock that they can run around once a year, while screaming out a bunch of ancient jibberish." that got me a little bothered.


But dude thats really what it is, if you look at it objectively it just people using the supernatural to explain something that science can explain with evidence and facts.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

Then ignore it. If you want to call all athiests and non believers filthy infidels that want to fuck their mothers and eat shit for breakfast, then I'm not going to take offense, and I have a feeling Dave won't give 2 shits either. That's what this ENTIRE issue boils down to. If you don't like it, ignore it. I don't go and cruise religious web sites and find stupid shit to get offended about, so I don't understand why these guys can extend the same courtesy. If you don't like Dave's comments, simply brush is off. Like he said, if you're super faithful and have no qualms with your religious beliefs, then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.


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## D-EJ915 (Feb 8, 2008)

[sarcasm]That picture is offensive to me, to make me see such hideous drawings of people is horrendous, those hideous people in the picture should be defiled and put to death for this atrocity.[/sarcasm]

Seriously though, images in a context of learning should never be removed for any reason. This goes for pornography, etc. I stand by having "gross" images kept for learning purposes.



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Then ignore it. If you want to call all athiests and non believers filthy infidels that want to fuck their mothers and eat shit for breakfast, then I'm not going to take offense, and I have a feeling Dave won't give 2 shits either. That's what this ENTIRE issue boils down to. If you don't like it, ignore it. I don't go and cruise religious web sites and find stupid shit to get offended about, so I don't understand why these guys can extend the same courtesy. If you don't like Dave's comments, simply brush is off. Like he said, if you're super faithful and have no qualms with your religious beliefs, then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.


very nice, this is the same kind of thing about religios people who attack un-religious people and un-religious people who attack religious people, I think all of those people are hypocrites.


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## -K4G- (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Then ignore it. If you want to call all athiests and non believers filthy infidels that want to fuck their mothers and eat shit for breakfast, then I'm not going to take offense, and I have a feeling Dave won't give 2 shits either. That's what this ENTIRE issue boils down to. If you don't like it, ignore it. I don't go and cruise religious web sites and find stupid shit to get offended about, so I don't understand why these guys can extend the same courtesy. If you don't like Dave's comments, simply brush is off. Like he said, if you're super faithful and have no qualms with your religious beliefs, then it shouldn't be that big of a deal.



yea, true.


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Then ignore it. If you want to call all athiests and non believers filthy infidels that want to fuck their mothers and eat shit for breakfast, then I'm not going to take offense, and I have a feeling Dave won't give 2 shits either.



Personally, I gave my mother a good rogering this morning. I did it right after we filmed 2Dwarves1Cup.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

It seems like 1Dwarf2Cups might have made more sense... 

Dunno how that'd work. Don't WANT to...


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## Abhorred (Feb 8, 2008)

1Dwarf2Prophets

God was _great_.


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> haha..im not fazed by the whole wiki thingy. Its that Dave's initial post of Mecca as "The nice aliens even brought them this rock that they can run around once a year, while screaming out a bunch of ancient jibberish." that got me a little bothered.



Essentially, that is what happened, minus the aliens (the alien thing was playing into Popsyche's post). A few thousand years ago, a meteor fell from the sky an impacted in the middle east. The people living in the region took it as a sign from the heavens, enshrined it, and made it a symbol of their religon. _This predated Islam by around 300 years_.

What does this have to do with the worship of Allah? How does this relate to Islam in any way? It doesn't! Quite simply, it was rolled into the religion to make the transition to the new religion more attractive to those of older faiths. This is how Christians got a Christmas tree and celebrate the birth of Christ on December 25th. His real birth date was months earlier, but the old traditions of pagan religions were carried over.

Do you know why so many religious leaders are fanatical about the suppression of science and history? It's because it exposes all the huge dumptruck-sized holes in their dogma. Islam forbids the worship of idols, yet the worship of this particular idol is considered the most holy of pilgrimages. So many Christians insist that Adam and Eve were the first humans, responsible for spawning the entire human race, yet when they were cast out of the Eden into the land of Nod, there were people there. It says it right there in the Book of Genesis!

Why should I bother to show respect to a belief system that can't even get its own facts straight? Would you get on a plane that was built by an engineer who, even though all the math didn't work out right, believes that it will fly?


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## halsinden (Feb 8, 2008)

may i just offer something which may possibly completely contradict everything i've been saying? (as in, just thought of it).

and may i just say that, before i do, i actually find the majority of religious notions deplorable, not to mention the (at times casual) attempt to inflict it and its principles on other people sickening...

what about the removal of paedophilic material from 'illegal' sites on the internet by most western law and governmental bodies?

i'm not defending paedophilia, however i have just realised that this is censorship to a huge degree.

thoughts?

H


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## D-EJ915 (Feb 8, 2008)

if the site is located in the US it is illegal to host that material


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

Denouncing moral depravity and religious opinion are different things. Although they are often intertwined by religious fanatics.

The whole "gay people are an abomination unto god" bullshit is completely different from people abusing children and ruining their lives before it'd even started.


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## kung_fu (Feb 8, 2008)

My favourite quote under the article:

"So why doesn't he just break the fucking pinata and be done with it?" 

Another picture of the Prophet himself:


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## Metal Ken (Feb 8, 2008)

Here's what i dont get:
Showing a picture of mohammed is bad.

Naming your children after him is good. Shouldnt that be bad too?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

Just make sure you don't name a teddy bear Muhammad.


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## Lee (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Just make sure you don't name a teddy bear Muhammad.



Big difference. That warrants imprisonment


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

I know a guy called Mohammed!


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

halsinden said:


> may i just offer something which may possibly completely contradict everything i've been saying? (as in, just thought of it).
> 
> and may i just say that, before i do, i actually find the majority of religious notions deplorable, not to mention the (at times casual) attempt to inflict it and its principles on other people sickening...
> 
> ...



Objections based upon religious grounds are censorship, since they are trying to force their beliefs on the rest of the world.

Child pornography is exploitation, pure and simple. If you are not an adult, you are considered to not yet have a fully developed sense of right and wrong. So, you are violating the rights of someone else. Your rights end where someone else ends.


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## InTheRavensName (Feb 8, 2008)

two things;

1) At uni...while drunk, we changed the "Islam awareness society"'s stand from "Allah (God)" to "Amott (God)". teeeheeee 
2) I intend to name my dog Muhammed, just for shits and giggles in the light of the teddy bear thing


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## Drew (Feb 8, 2008)

KillForGod said:


> me either..
> 
> 
> 
> haha..im not fazed by the whole wiki thingy. Its that Dave's initial post of Mecca as "The nice aliens even brought them this rock that they can run around once a year, while screaming out a bunch of ancient jibberish." that got me a little bothered.



Oh, he says that about Caltholics, too. I can't remember a specific example off the top of my head, but he probably thinks the same about Jews. I mean, as far as he's concerned, "burning bush" refers to a chick with red hair, not a valid means of passing along a code of living. Nothing against redheads. I wouldn't sweat it too much.


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

Burning Bush? Did someone set W on fire?


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

noodles said:


> Burning Bush? Did someone set W on fire?



Party at my place!


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## Drew (Feb 8, 2008)

I TRY to make a lewd joke, and you fuckers turn it into political humour. 



[action=Drew]stashes the matches and the gasoline under his desk before anyone sees.[/action]


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## D-EJ915 (Feb 8, 2008)

I wonder if anyone named Muhammed works at a confectionary and packs fudge all day.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

D-EJ915 said:


> I wonder if anyone named Muhammed works at a confectionary and packs fudge all day.








Mohammed with Jesus in the background packing fudge with his forklift. 

EDIT: Fudge conveniently stored in recycled coke bottles. Smart guys, saviours.


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## zimbloth (Feb 8, 2008)

There's hundreds of thousands of people who believe this actually happened:






So, no. No respect from me.


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## D-EJ915 (Feb 8, 2008)




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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

^ 

In before the close!


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## Xtremevillan (Feb 8, 2008)

I see a dinosaur.

What the heck?

I also think we should respect other's religions to an extent. I mean, I can't eat meat so my friends usually go to Taco Bell (beef -> beans) but occasionally they will go to BK and I get fries and onion rings and a milkshake.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 8, 2008)

Xtremevillan said:


> I see a dinosaur.
> 
> What the heck?
> 
> I also think we should respect other's religions to an extent. I mean, I can't eat meat so my friends usually go to Taco Bell (beef -> beans) but occasionally they will go to BK and I get fries and onion rings and a milkshake.



I think we should respect religions the same way we respect the concept of fairies living down the end of the garden.

The God Delusion should be mandatory reading.  Open your minds.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 8, 2008)

It's Raptor Jesus.

You CAN'T eat meat? Health reasons or religious? If one of my friends chose not to eat meat for any reason I wouldn't give a shit, I'd still eat a big ass steak in front of them, no matter their reason. Then again, I probably wouldn't have a vegetarian for a friend who couldn't stand to watch me eat a big ass bloody steak. I DO have vegetarian friends, but for them it's health, they just can't process it or some shit, so they don't care if I eat meat.


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## Popsyche (Feb 8, 2008)

Nothing like a big, bloody ASSsteak!


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## smueske (Feb 8, 2008)

> So, I'm having a hard time understanding the (limited - out of several hundred million Muslems in the world, their petition only numbers 107,000, and no telling how many of them are unique signers) Muslem outrage about this.



Yeah, I'm so with you, but lest we forget, a woman was nearly behead over naming a fucking teddy bear Mohammed. Is it really such a stretch to think that extremists would have a cow about this? What they should really do is have a completely separatist society. Leave the rest of us out of it. It's hard enough dealing with run of the mill fanaticism without veiled threats.

Someone should start a shut the fuck up petition.


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## Thrashmanzac (Feb 8, 2008)

Abhorred said:


> 1Dwarf2Prophets
> 
> God was _great_.


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## Desecrated (Feb 8, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> It's Raptor Jesus.
> 
> You CAN'T eat meat? Health reasons or religious? If one of my friends chose not to eat meat for any reason I wouldn't give a shit, I'd still eat a big ass steak in front of them, no matter their reason. Then again, I probably wouldn't have a vegetarian for a friend who couldn't stand to watch me eat a big ass bloody steak. I DO have vegetarian friends, but for them it's health, they just can't process it or some shit, so they don't care if I eat meat.



I'm vegan by choice since 15 year back, Most of my friends eat meat, I don't care, that's there business.


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## Xtremevillan (Feb 8, 2008)

My parents are Indian and raised me not to eat meat. It's the least I can do by respecting that tradition, if I don't respect anything else.


_Plus when I eat meat my tummy hurts  _


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## bostjan (Feb 8, 2008)

Burger King BK Veggie Burger. 'nuff said.


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## Desecrated (Feb 8, 2008)

Xtremevillan said:


> My parents are Indian and raised me not to eat meat. It's the least I can do by respecting that tradition, if I don't respect anything else.
> 
> 
> _Plus when I eat meat my tummy hurts  _



Sorry that made me think of this:


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## Cancer (Feb 8, 2008)

Onk a serious note (really if they are any practicing Muslims here please chime in), what exactly is wrong with this image.

Again, not trying to start a flamewar, just trying to understand.


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## Desecrated (Feb 8, 2008)

Cancer said:


> Onk a serious note (really if they are any practicing Muslims here please chime in), what exactly is wrong with this image.
> 
> Again, not trying to start a flamewar, just trying to understand.



There is nothing wrong, it's just tradition. dogma and the word of the Koran. 
A shit load of Christian doctrines don't make sense at all but people follow them because it's the word of the lord.


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## Cancer (Feb 8, 2008)

Desecrated said:


> There is nothing wrong, it's just tradition. dogma and the word of the Koran.
> A shit load of Christian doctrines don't make sense at all but people follow them because it's the word of the lord.



Yeah, I just finiished reading the rest of the thread. Brother Noodles gave us the straight dope. IL'll do more proper research when I have time, but it Friday night, there's a Jager shot waiting for me somewhere.


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## noodles (Feb 8, 2008)

Cancer said:


> IL'll do more proper research when I have time, but it Friday night, there's a Jager shot waiting for me somewhere.



I support this post. 

[action=Noodles]had a hell day to cap off a hell week, and is busy crawling into a bottle of Basil Hayden's.[/action]


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## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 8, 2008)

Drew said:


> I mean, as far as he's concerned, "burning bush" refers to a chick with red hair ... redheads are really hot!!


 
FIXED


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 8, 2008)

All_¥our_Bass;866157 said:


> FIXED



I fucking  redheads.


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## Xaios (Feb 8, 2008)

I feel like chiming in. This post may be nonsensical and disjointed. That's life for ya.

I am a Christian. I was raised somewhere between Pentecostal and Mennonite Brethren faiths, but I've generally come to my own conclusions on the formation of the doctrine that I follow, although I do believe the way I live and act to be in accordance with the Bible, the teachings of God and Christ. I try to live life every day in a right manner, cleanly and without vice. I read scripture, and I take what I can from it in an effort to improve myself.

The next question you may be asking yourself is if I believe some of things in the Bible that tend to go against what science, as we know it, in accordance with the teachings of the people who supposedly practice it, says. The answer, quite simply, is yes. I do believe that God created the man, the Earth, the Universe, everything. I won't explain why, mainly because I can't. The only answer I can give is that I have faith in the answers the Bible provides me, at least that's the only way I can word any sort of response.

I also believe that God sent his son, Jesus, to take on the sin of the world, and die for it, in an act of unknowable compassion, so that I may be spared judgment for my inadequacy. The God I believe in, and that I try and walk with everyday, is a God of love, of mercy, and of grace, who, while is capable of judgment and wrath, does not desire our downfall, and offers us a door to salvation, but does not force our hand, having also given us the will do to what we may.

I go to church every Sunday, it's a very small non-denominational church. Some of my particular beliefs differ from those of the rest of the church, but we can see past such differences, as the people of this church are kind, warm-hearted people who give their time and their money to causes which I believe are holy and just, such as guidance of those who wish to seek God, and the care of those who are less fortunate than themselves. I even play my seven string in the church band.

I've had many friends in my life who don't believe in God. That's okay. They are entirely aware of my beliefs, and they are respectful of them, as long as I don't force my beliefs on them, which I don't. We have an understanding, and we respect each other's personal choices. When one of them comes to me and says they want to know more (which has happened), I try to explain what I believe as best as I can, and if they want to know more (which they always do, because, as I said, I'm not the wisest or most knowledgeable person on the face of the earth) then I point them in the direction of other people who are better equipped to bring them to God.

I really don't know where I'm going with this, so I'll just end it with the point I seem to have been working towards. I am a person of faith, and that very faith gives me the understanding to coexist with those around me who do not share my beliefs. I desire a personal relationship with God, and I believe this mutual respect to be a product of this. No, I don't have all the answers, and I am quite capable of answering "I don't know why," to questions that are posed to me from those who actively oppose my faith. In the culture that I live in, faith in anything that can't be seen leads to persecution, in one form or another. I realize that there are those who will label me as a blind fool or an idiot for what I believe, so be it. The favor of men is not what I seek.


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## Lucky Seven (Feb 8, 2008)

ZeroSignal said:


> The God Delusion should be mandatory reading.  Open your minds.



It borrowed it from a friend, it really is a great book.


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 9, 2008)

Xaios said:


> I am a Christian.



Allow me the opportunity to openly mock your entire belief system.


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## noodles (Feb 9, 2008)

I just want to add that I respect a guy like Xaios, and I would never tear someone like him down. Surprising to some, but it is all about personal choices. He spent a lot of time explaining how his religion works for him, how it answers questions for him, and how he does not try to force those beliefs on others. It took a lot of courage to step into an environment hostile to everything he stands for, and unapologetically be himself. Maybe you should remember that next time, Jongpil Yun, before you decide to act like a dick.

Christians (or Jews or Muslims) start to scare me when they start using the all inclusive "we", as in "we" need to protect the sanctity of marriage, or "we" need to force the heathen Palestinians out of the holy lands, or "we" need to forbid the face of Muhammad to be seen. Unfortunately, my sister is one of them, and I despise Christianity for it. If she didn't feel the need to try and force her doctrine on everyone, I could respect her more.


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I fucking  redheads.



I'm a redhead  















Anyways...the way I see things Faith=Good and Religion=Bad. Organised Religion gets people killed for petty reasons....


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## Popsyche (Feb 9, 2008)

noodles said:


> I just want to add that I respect a guy like Xaios, and I would never tear someone like him down. Surprising to some, but it is all about personal choices. He spent a lot of time explaining how his religion works for him, how it answers questions for him, and how he does not try to force those beliefs on others. It took a lot of courage to step into an environment hostile to everything he stands for, and unapologetically be himself. Maybe you should remember that next time, Jongpil Yun, before you decide to act like a dick.
> 
> Christians (or Jews or Muslims) start to scare me when they start using the all inclusive "we", as in "we" need to protect the sanctity of marriage, or "we" need to force the heathen Palestinians out of the holy lands, or "we" need to forbid the face of Muhammad to be seen. Unfortunately, my sister is one of them, and I despise Christianity for it. If she didn't feel the need to try and force her doctrine on everyone, I could respect her more.



I couldn't agree with you more, brother wee one! Xaios has attempted to show those that don't understand, the really good side of having Strong beliefs in God(Du jour, as we refer to him/her). He shows the undying love and compassion for his fellow man, driven by a greater sense of good. It's a shame that they have to do it in the name of God as opposed to just the simple name of humanity. But hey! It's better than undying cynicism!


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## noodles (Feb 9, 2008)

Can I propose a toast to undying cynicism?


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

Undying cynicism is depressing.


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## noodles (Feb 9, 2008)

Your Epiphone is depressing.


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## Popsyche (Feb 9, 2008)

To undying cynicism!


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## noodles (Feb 9, 2008)

Thank you, Bill! 

Is truckin' Latin for dropping the ball?


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## Zepp88 (Feb 9, 2008)

noodles said:


> Your Epiphone is depressing.



Yes, yes it is.


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## Nerina (Feb 9, 2008)

^


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## Naren (Feb 9, 2008)

I doubt Wikipedia will give into those ridiculous demands and I'd be quite disappointed if they did. Wikipedia tries to provide information in an unbiased way that is not slanted to any point of view. If they got rid of that picture because a bunch of religious extremists, they might as well go into the history of Islam articles and erase everything bad in history that muslims have done. And, while they're at it, they might as well do that for all the other religions - so as not to offend religious folk with the truth. 

I personally deal with Christians, muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and so on in a person-by-person base. I cannot make sweeping generalizations about them all and I have met very nice, generous, kind, loving, and fun Christians, as well as Buddhists, and so on. I disagree with what they believe, but not all of them believe the same way or act the same way. I respect that Xaio had the courage to write that post in this thread.


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## El Caco (Feb 9, 2008)

noodles said:


> So many Christians insist that Adam and Eve were the first humans, responsible for spawning the entire human race, yet when they were cast out of the Eden into the land of Nod, there were people there. It says it right there in the Book of Genesis!


I do agree with what your saying and there are plenty of good examples of contradictions and foolishness in the Bible but I don't think this is one of them. Adam and Eve did not get cast out into the land of Nod, when Cain left "the presence of the Lord" he dwelt in the land of Nod, Nod means wandering, so this would have been his land of wandering, to my knowledge Genesis does not mention that there were people living in Nod before Cain arrived.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 9, 2008)

s7eve said:


> Genesis does not mention that there were people living in Nod before Cain arrived.



Doesnt it say he took a wife there?

Edit:



> 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
> 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.


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## El Caco (Feb 9, 2008)

Xaios said:


> I feel like chiming in. This post may be nonsensical and disjointed. That's life for ya.
> 
> I am a Christian. I was raised somewhere between Pentecostal and Mennonite Brethren faiths, but I've generally come to my own conclusions on the formation of the doctrine that I follow, although I do believe the way I live and act to be in accordance with the Bible, the teachings of God and Christ. I try to live life every day in a right manner, cleanly and without vice. I read scripture, and I take what I can from it in an effort to improve myself.
> 
> ...



Fair enough.

Revelation 3: 15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Why am I quoting that? If you claim to be a Christian and are serious about salvation then you can't afford to be half arsed about it, you have to give up your life of sin and give your entire life to Christ. Dead to the world and alive in Christ. That's not my motive to post that however, I am trying to encourage you and any other Christian to be serious about studying the so called "word of God", to study it deeply and thoughtfully and "test" it as it instructs you to do so. I believe that if you do so you will either become more devout in your faith or more likely come to see what I and others have.

I really mean no disrespect, I completely respect peoples rights to follow any religion of their choosing but I know that the majority of Christians I have encountered are ignorant to the flaws in the Bible, they are mostly Sunday Christians that believe and study what they are told, I know that if they studied the Bible as I did they would not be Christians. As such I encourage all religious people to study in depth their sacred texts because ignorance isn't bliss.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 9, 2008)

Spoiler



The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.


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## Carrion (Feb 9, 2008)

Metal Ken said:


> Doesnt it say he took a wife there?
> 
> Edit:





That playlist basically sums up all the fucked up parts about the first couple of chapters like people coming out of nowheres and building huge cities for basically nobody.


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## -K4G- (Feb 9, 2008)

Cancer said:


> Onk a serious note (really if they are any practicing Muslims here please chime in), what exactly is wrong with this image.
> 
> Again, not trying to start a flamewar, just trying to understand.



i dont think there's anything wrong with the image. There's no restriction in depicting the Prophet. Even when i was growing up i could remember books had some image depicting the Prophet. Even National Geographic did the same.


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## God Hand Apostle (Feb 9, 2008)

I dont see this as a big deal really. Its a storm in tea cup. If that is the way the religion works, and your not supposed to put the prophet in art like that...then what's wrong with taking it down and putting in the article that the religion says you can't put the prophet in art or whatever?


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## Naren (Feb 9, 2008)

God Hand Apostle said:


> I dont see this as a big deal really. Its a storm in tea cup. If that is the way the religion works, and your not supposed to put the prophet in art like that...then what's wrong with taking it down and putting in the article that the religion says you can't put the prophet in art or whatever?



Because the fact that the prophet IS in art (as demonstrated by the picture and several others) proves that the statement is incorrect. There may be muslims who disagree on the subject, but this is muslim art and there is a lot of muslim art depicting Muhammad.


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## God Hand Apostle (Feb 9, 2008)

So...looking at this democratically, these people who signed this thing represent like .001% of the muslim population? 

Then fuck 'em. haha.


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## Xaios (Feb 9, 2008)

s7eve said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Revelation 3: 15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. 16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
> 
> ...



Allow me to quote a couple the passages from the Bible that mean a lot to me, and from which I have found much value.

*1st Corinthians 13*

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 

Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 

And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

*1st John 5-10*

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 

If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

I hope these passages clarify where I'm coming from.


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## El Caco (Feb 9, 2008)

I know them well, there was a time when I was apprenticing as a preacher and studied a Diploma of Preaching/Bible studies, also 1st Cor 13 was a passage we selected for our wedding. I think I have a pretty good idea where you are coming from and the passages you quoted reinforce that in my mind. I am confident that if you or any person studies the new testament deeply that serious questions would arise. If you choose to pick messages from the Bible and apply them and that helps you to be a better person, good for you, the NT is a mostly a message of tolerance and love anyway so it's not like that is a bad thing. However I think if you study the 4 Gospels against each other, study the life of Paul, the history and birth of the church in the Bible and the divisions that existed, I think if you study these deeply and analyse what is actually going on and look at everything contained in the NT and study it thoughtfully in combination with external aids that you may come to the same conclusions others have before you.
I decided long ago that people need to study these things for themselves and realise these things themselves, so I generally choose not to point out things that are now obvious to me and just encourage people to study and that can only be a good thing right?

Did you know that the first disciples of Christ were Jews that were called Nazarenes, did you know that the name Christian is only mentioned twice in the Bible and that the disciples of Christ considered it as an insult? It is all in the Bible. The story that churches teach can be found in the Bible if you choose passages and ignore others but if you really study it especially the hard parts (there is a reason they are hard to understand) you might discover that the NT contains a story that the Churches will never teach.

/OT

If there is anything you would like to further discuss about this, it would probably be best to do so by PM


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## Stitch (Feb 9, 2008)




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## Xaios (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes, I am aware of many of these things, I hope you don't think I'm ignorant of some of the less tasteful aspects of the Bible.


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## El Caco (Feb 9, 2008)

s7eve said:


> /OT
> 
> If there is anything you would like to further discuss about this, it would probably be best to do so by PM


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 14, 2008)

noodles said:


> I just want to add that I respect a guy like Xaios, and I would never tear someone like him down. Surprising to some, but it is all about personal choices. He spent a lot of time explaining how his religion works for him, how it answers questions for him, and how he does not try to force those beliefs on others. It took a lot of courage to step into an environment hostile to everything he stands for, and unapologetically be himself. Maybe you should remember that next time, Jongpil Yun, before you decide to act like a dick.



Sure, he explained his ideas on religion, and sure he's not trying to force anything on me, sure, it was courageous (I guess) to step into a hostile environment, but that doesn't make his beliefs any less ridiculous. I can believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, or leprechauns all I want, but I can't (and shouldn't) expect to be able to say so in public without some measure of ridicule.

I'm not bitter about being b& -- it's your prerogative as a mod, after all, and if you think I stepped over the line, so be it, but I would say the same thing again, any time, on principle alone. This kind of undue respect to religion absolutely kills me. No matter how nicely or non-threateningly bullshit is presented, it is still bullshit, and should be called as such. Ideas are ideas. They should be measured by their validity and worth, and no punches should be pulled for any reason.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

I myself believe in God and Jesus, no questions about it, no denying it, no turning away from what others say, because of the PERSONAL things that I've have gone throughand things that were shown to me by Him. I don't believe in them becauseI'm told to. I do believe in what the Bible says as a WHOLE and know that there are A LOT of things in it that are really messed up, but I realize that it is a product of the era and was written in a time where things were messed up and many things are not prevalent to today&#8217;s world since we (as in humans) EVOLVE and mature and grow as both people, and as a society. I will say this though, living in the Bible belt south has shown me MANY things that I don't like about all of this. It is the reason that for many years I hated this religion and Christians and wanted nothing to do with them. After coming back into this realm of faith I will say this, and I quote it because someone on this site said it best:



> I don't have a problem with God and all, it' the fans that I don't like.


 And still, to this day, will say that I CAN'T STAND other "Christians" as a whole. If I met one and got to know one, then that's one thing, but for the most part they themselves are the reason many are turned away from this faith and why I choose not to be around them. I believe that what they are, believe, and do is fine sometimes, (out of respect) but I believe that THE WAY THEY DO IT is what urks me the most. The self-righteous, I-know-more-because-my-eyes-are-open-and-I-have-God-on-my-side mentality. Yeah, that&#8217;s how it is down here with some folks. Not all the time and by everyone, but for the most part. The whole evolution, and the young Earth and Dinosaur thing, global warming, Ten Commandments issue, the &#8220;changing the laws to fit the Bible&#8221; (which is news to me!) all that shit boils down to me saying these two things:
Anybody in today&#8217;s world who puts their energy into debating crap like this and attempting to change has too much time on there hands. My French teacher said &#8220;you don&#8217;t ever wonder about things such as Evolution and where we came from?&#8221; I said &#8220;Yes, I do wonder, but I&#8217;ve got bills and school and shit! I don&#8217;t have the time to worry about things that won&#8217;t do me any good now because at the end of the day, when everything has been proven and is deemed true and false, what then? Where would we be? Still here in this fucked up world with its real and more urgent problems snowballing the shit out of itself.
I think I learned in History 101 that the pilgrims came to this land to get away from the religious bullshit in there own country. To have religious freedoms or some sort. Why are we regressing and being told to do things the Christian&#8217;s way? Know what I say, Fuck that shit, because I don&#8217;t believe in some of what they are changing. And I think that many Christians are full of themselves. There, I said it.
The point I&#8217;m trying to make is this. There is a difference in religion and spirituality, the latter of which I follow. Like I said earlier, I&#8217;m a follower because of the personal things that I&#8217;ve been taught and shown and I keep them that way. Hell, I won't even call myself a Christian. I&#8217;ve heard other preachers even say that &#8220;religion&#8221; is bad, which made me ponder a bit. I don&#8217;t believe in correcting folks when they say or do things that are different or against what they/I believe and even though I believe in this faith, I won&#8217;t openly talk about it or push it on others unless they ask, which, from there, I tell very little because it&#8217;s personal and I wouldn&#8217;t expect them to understand like I do.
I will say this in closing, I understand why many don&#8217;t believe in this faith, but once I came back in from having stepped back and looked at the bigger picture, I can say that a lot of what I thought was true and hypocritical, some of which has been said already in this thread, turned out to be false from the stance that it&#8217;s being looked at the wrong way, but that&#8217;s just me. 







s7eve said:


> Why am I quoting that? If you claim to be a Christian and are serious about salvation then you can't afford to be half arsed about it, you have to give up your life of sin and give your entire life to Christ. Dead to the world and alive in Christ.



I don't understand this part of your post. How is he being half assed about what he does?


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

> I don't have a problem with God and all, it' the fans that I don't like.



I actually DO have a problem with god. He gives people cancer and makes innocent children be born mentally disabled. Before they've even had a chance at life and "god" has already crippled them! Seems like it's still the vengeful Abrahamic god from the old testament at work.  I'm not mad at you, I'm just mad at god. :deicide:



Ojinomoto said:


> Anybody in today&#8217;s world who puts their energy into debating crap like this and attempting to change has too much time on there hands. My French teacher said &#8220;you don&#8217;t ever wonder about things such as Evolution and where we came from?&#8221; I said &#8220;Yes, I do wonder, but I&#8217;ve got bills and school and shit! I don&#8217;t have the time to worry about things that won&#8217;t do me any good now because at the end of the day, when everything has been proven and is deemed true and false, what then? Where would we be? Still here in this fucked up world with its real and more urgent problems snowballing the shit out of itself.
> I think I learned in History 101 that the pilgrims came to this land to get away from the religious bullshit in there own country. To have religious freedoms or some sort. Why are we regressing and being told to do things the Christian&#8217;s way? Know what I say, Fuck that shit, because I don&#8217;t believe in some of what they are changing. And I think that many Christians are full of themselves. There, I said it.



1. I think we should all be wondering about what is happening around us. It is a very important part of being human. Either that or we go a good step towards Rousseau's "Natural Man" crap. Makes me wonder why we ever came down from the trees...

2. I learned recently that the United States of America was founded by Atheists as a SECULAR state where everyone could have their own religion and it wouldn't be an important matter. Oh how your "Founding Fathers" must be spinning in their graves.

Everyone should really check out this: The God Delusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

ZeroSignal said:


> I actually DO have a problem with god. He gives people cancer and makes innocent children be born mentally disabled. Before they've even had a chance at life and "god" has already crippled them!
> 
> 1. I think we should all be wondering about what is happening around us. It is a very important part of being human. Either that or we go a good step towards Rousseau's "Natural Man" crap. Makes me wonder why we ever came down from the trees...
> 
> ...




I understand what you mean! I look at it like this, and this is something that I didn't get to put in my first post, when I see people who are either disabled, those who do nothing and get everything, or those whole are born to do things that we can barely dream of doing ourselves I just say, "It's none of my business." I'm sure that one can look upon others and see the bad that they posses by either birth or not, and think WTF! how can God do this to people, but I think that one forgets what good they are or can be to somebody or thing in this world. What good can a crippled kid be to anybody? I don't know, but then again, what can we know by being outside the family looking in? We can't see the future. They might not be much now but later they might be a genius like that Stephen Hawkins guy, or some other example. 
I look at the 10 year old kids who can play Mozart from one listening flawlessly and say "WTF! I can't even downpick fast!" but then again, he could be a total retard in a sense that he might not know how to do ____ well, or he might have a _____ disorder so even though he can play well, he can't ______ at all. Yet I, or you, can do this, this AND this! See what I mean? I just look at it and know that it's ^ that makes the world unique in it's own right.

What is this?

I'm sure they're yelling a loud WTF!


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

Ojinomoto said:


> I understand what you mean! I look at it like this, and this is something that I didn't get to put in my first post, when I see people who are either disabled, those who do nothing and get everything, or those whole are born to do things that we can barely dream of doing ourselves I just say, "It's none of my business." I'm sure that one can look upon others and see the bad that they posses by either birth or not, and think WTF! how can God do this to people, but I think that one forgets what good they are or can be to somebody or thing in this world. What good can a crippled kid be to anybody? I don't know, but then again, what can we know by being outside the family looking in? We can't see the future. They might not be much now but later they might be a genius like that Stephen Hawkins guy, or some other example.
> *I look at the 10 year old kids who can play Mozart from one listening flawlessly and say "WTF! I can't even downpick fast!" but then again, he could be a total retard in a sense that he might not know how to do ____ well, or he might have a _____ disorder so even though he can play well, he can't ______ at all. Yet I, or you, can do this, this AND this! *See what I mean? I just look at it and know that it's ^ that makes the world unique in it's own right.
> 
> What is this?
> ...



I somehow don't think a child with autism is having a very good time or is making their parents lives a lot easier. I REALLY don't think we should glorify such "Acts Of god" either.

If you are talking about a medical condition in the *bold* text then it is called Williams-Beuren Syndrome. It's a very curious disease. Although I found it very difficult to understand you from all those gaps.

As for the lime green text, see: Jean-Jacques Rousseau - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

ZeroSignal said:


> I somehow don't think a child with autism is having a very good time or is making their parents lives a lot easier. I REALLY don't think we should glorify such "Acts Of god" either.
> 
> Although I found it very difficult to understand you from all those gaps.



 I don't mean to be disrespectful but that came off as kinda funny for some reason. *I'm going to get hit by a car for thinking this.

The "Acts of God" part, IMO, just refers back to what I was stating earlier, one shouldn't be worried about what "God" is doing to and for other people. 

The gaps just mean you can put your own examples in. That's all.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

Ojinomoto said:


> The "Acts of God" part, IMO, just refers back to what I was stating earlier, one shouldn't be worried about what "God" is doing to and for other people.



Huh, I'd like to think one should be terrified about what the boogy-man is doing to other people.

Yes I'm sure a child should have cystic-fibrosis and I'm sure god has a VERY good reason for it too. [/SARCASM]


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## noodles (Feb 14, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Sure, he explained his ideas on religion, and sure he's not trying to force anything on me, sure, it was courageous (I guess) to step into a hostile environment, but that doesn't make his beliefs any less ridiculous. I can believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, or leprechauns all I want, but I can't (and shouldn't) expect to be able to say so in public without some measure of ridicule.



Hey, I'm with you, since I find religon ridiculous myself. However, it is my job to keep things civil, and what you said was stepping over the line of civilized debate, into the realm of personal attacks. It would be one thing if you were responding to a "I'm right, you're wrong, and you're all going to hell! I hope Huckabee rewrites the constitution!" post, because I probably would have beat you to it. However, the poster in question made it very clear that he has found what works for him, and has no desire to push it upon other people.

It is my job to keep discussions from getting out of line, no matter how I feel about the subject matter. Debate the points, not attack the person, ok?


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

ZeroSignal said:


> Yes I'm sure a child should have cystic-fibrosis and I'm sure god has a VERY good reason for it too. [/SARCASM]



Ehh, good point.


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## noodles (Feb 14, 2008)

Ojinomoto said:


> And still, to this day, will say that I CAN'T STAND other "Christians" as a whole. If I met one and got to know one, then that's one thing, but for the most part they themselves are the reason many are turned away from this faith and why I choose not to be around them. I believe that what they are, believe, and do is fine sometimes, (out of respect) but I believe that THE WAY THEY DO IT is what urks me the most. The self-righteous, I-know-more-because-my-eyes-are-open-and-I-have-God-on-my-side mentality. Yeah, that&#8217;s how it is down here with some folks. Not all the time and by everyone, but for the most part.



The funny thing is, I remember being at this point in my life. I went from being a Christian, to being someone with faith that hated organized religion, to being someone who questioned that faith, to being someone who questioned where we came from on a much broader level (agnostic), and then finally coming to the realization that there is simply no proof that a "higher power" exists (atheist).

I'm sure you realize that you've found yourself in a "in-between" state. The bible is quite clear about what you should and should not believe, and you're not expected to deviate from it. It is a product of a different time, where religious tolerance was NOT a concept that was taken seriously, and you were NOT encouraged to think for yourselves. Just read the book and do what you're told. There was a lack of a basic scientific understanding of the physical world and how it worked, so a lot of what is in there is based upon uneducated observations and superstitions that are no longer well regarded today. How may exorcisms do you hear about these days? We now know "demon possessions" are simply psychological disorders. God doesn't "black out the sun", the moon moves in front of it, causing an eclipse. "Raining fire"? Nobody understood what a volcanic erruption is.

This is the problem with absolutes. That is a book written by people who _insisted_ that they were right. The newest passages are over 1700 years old. The oldest ones predate the written word. How can it possibly be relevant today? Yet, that is what exists, and that is what you are supposed to believe as a Christian. Otherwise, you're only half in, you're "lukewarm".



> The whole evolution, and the young Earth and Dinosaur thing, global warming, Ten Commandments issue, the &#8220;changing the laws to fit the Bible&#8221; (which is news to me!) all that shit boils down to me saying these two things:
> Anybody in today&#8217;s world who puts their energy into debating crap like this and attempting to change has too much time on there hands. My French teacher said &#8220;you don&#8217;t ever wonder about things such as Evolution and where we came from?&#8221; I said &#8220;Yes, I do wonder, but I&#8217;ve got bills and school and shit! I don&#8217;t have the time to worry about things that won&#8217;t do me any good now because at the end of the day, when everything has been proven and is deemed true and false, what then? Where would we be? Still here in this fucked up world with its real and more urgent problems snowballing the shit out of itself.



Are you serious? Understanding how we evolved can lead to all sorts of medical advances. It can give us an idea of how life develops and evolves, so we know what to look for on other plaents, or even develop life on "dead" planets, like Mars.

Studying how and when the dinosaurs died out will teach us how to preserve our own lives from future natural disasters.

Global warming IS a problem, whether you want to stick your head in the sand or not. There is no denying the scientific evidence that points to our polution changing the environment. We're debating this issue because certain morons want to ignore the problem. How would you feel if I stopped by, trashed your place, and told you that trashing your house is just a hoax? Well, that's what we're doing, we're trashing our house, and it's not a fucking hoax.



> I think I learned in History 101 that the pilgrims came to this land to get away from the religious bullshit in there own country. To have religious freedoms or some sort. Why are we regressing and being told to do things the Christian&#8217;s way? Know what I say, Fuck that shit, because I don&#8217;t believe in some of what they are changing. And I think that many Christians are full of themselves. There, I said it.



Because that is what humans do. We will never find a way to keep people from trying to force their beliefs on others. Do you know how Christians got their start? Food for the lions the Romans tossed them to. It wasn't too long until they started getting some power and persecuting others, was it? Humans are just a cruel, war-like race, and if you understood evolution, you'd know why.

How can you claim to be "spiritual, not religious", and then hide behind your veil of polite understanding, while spweing forth bile about evolution, global warming, and the age of the planet being "unimportant"? Come on, man, that is the arguement the fundamentalists make. Wrapping it up in a different box doesn't make the contents any less stupid.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

Noodles says everything so much more clearly than I do!


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

noodles said:


> Are you serious? Understanding how we evolved can lead to all sorts of medical advances. It can give us an idea of how life develops and evolves, so we know what to look for on other plaents, or even develop life on "dead" planets, like Mars.
> Global warming IS a problem, whether you want to stick your head in the sand or not. There is no denying the scientific evidence that points to our polution changing the environment. We're debating this issue because certain morons want to ignore the problem.



I don't think what I said came across the way I meant it to.
I'm not talking about the actual issue itself being pointless. We do need to further understand what we are and who we come to be by way of scientist's doing studies and what not. I'm talking about the fact that normal, everyday Bible fanatics who go out of their way to claim that it isn't real based on a 100% complete saying that "It's not what the Bible says," even though we have ways to scientifically observe and understand the actual science behind what's going on. Like what you said in red. There was a thing in the news saying that Bill Nye The Science Guy was at this gathering explaining how the moon got to where it is or something of the like. Now, as soon as he was about to explain how this could have happened, people got up and said "I believe in the holy word and I deem this false," (Something of that context.) Mainly because the bible says that God himself put that moon there, and what Bill was saying was false. (Gravity, and 2 large bodies are pulled to each other in space and all of the scientific explainations) MANY people walked out. <--That crap is what I don't like. We as humans can make an observation and see this stuff happen but since it's not in the "Christian perspective" it's false. You see what I mean? I'm just stating that evolution, pollution, and the age of the planet are dumb, humans have found a way to understand more and yet there are folks who say that it's false because of a fucking old book and faith in invisible beings.



noodles said:


> How can you claim to be "spiritual, not religious", and then hide behind your veil of polite understanding, while spweing forth bile about evolution, global warming, and the age of the planet being "unimportant"? Come on, man, that is the arguement the fundamentalists make. Wrapping it up in a different box doesn't make the contents any less stupid.



No. These things ARE important to figure out. Debating on "where and how they came about" is what I don't get. Do I believe we are similar to Apes and that we are related to them, and support the process and act of finding this out? YES. Do I believe it is pointless to say whether or not this is true because I believe in Adam and Eve were the FIRST humans? Yes. That's the point I'm trying to make:
scientist observe and figure out ways of our world and prove their knowledge with facts<--Thats cool.

Christians say that we didn't evolve, Earth isn't billions of years old (cause carbon dating doesn't exist) and that Dinosaurs weren't real<--That's lame.

Also, I forgot to say this and THIS is the reason I said what I said in the bullets of my first post:

We have this war, economy crisis's, and fuel issues. These are the things that I feel we need to be focused on, not (insert last post^^^)


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## noodles (Feb 14, 2008)

Ojinomoto said:


> We have this war, economy crisis's, and fuel issues. These are the things that I feel we need to be focused on, not (insert last post^^^)



You see, that is where we differ. I would put the environment right up there with the war and the economy. Actually, I could argue that it is MORE important, since if we ruin where we live, wars and economies will become completely irrelevant. It is the one thing that EVERYONE should be worrying about.

You know why I care so much about what Christians believe? Because they effect me. Some backwards beliefs based upon the uneducated speculations of an ancient culture is what stands in the way of stem cell research. I have an uncle who died of Lupus, and three other relatives who died of cancer. If stem cell research can lead to a cure--at the very least, a working solution, like cut out the entire cancerous lung and replace it with a new one--then I really don't give a living fuck what someone else believesis right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned, I'm holding everyone opposed to stem cell research accountable for the roughly six years of halted progress. Take the six years worth of deaths that occured immeditaely before working solutions are put into routine use, and that is what Christianity is repsonsible for. Call it voluntary manslaughter, if you will.

This is WHY this is an issue, and why I care what they believe, and debate it so fiercly. I get really, really upset when ancient fairtales hold up scientific advancement that SAVES LIVES. I also don't want my stepdaughter to go to school and learn that "intelligent" design is an actual, viable theory, because it's not. It's bad enough that she gets upset when I talk about god not existing, because her dance in the aisles, fall on the floor, mumble gibberish grandmother puts ridiculous stories in her head.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

noodles said:


> You see, that is where we differ. I would put the environment right up there with the war and the economy. Actually, I could argue that it is MORE important, since if we ruin where we live, wars and economies will become completely irrelevant. It is the one thing that EVERYONE should be worrying about.
> 
> You know why I care so much about what Christians believe? Because they effect me. Some backwards beliefs based upon the uneducated speculations of an ancient culture is what stands in the way of stem cell research. I have an uncle who died of Lupus, and three other relatives who died of cancer. If stem cell research can lead to a cure--at the very least, a working solution, like cut out the entire cancerous lung and replace it with a new one--then I really don't give a living fuck what someone else believesis right or wrong. As far as I'm concerned, I'm holding everyone opposed to stem cell research accountable for the roughly six years of halted progress. Take the six years worth of deaths that occured immeditaely before working solutions are put into routine use, and that is what Christianity is repsonsible for. Call it voluntary manslaughter, if you will.
> 
> This is WHY this is an issue, and why I care what they believe, and debate it so fiercly. I get really, really upset when ancient fairtales hold up scientific advancement that SAVES LIVES. I also don't want my stepdaughter to go to school and learn that "intelligent" design is an actual, viable theory, because it's not. It's bad enough that she gets upset when I talk about god not existing, because her dance in the aisles, fall on the floor, mumble gibberish grandmother puts ridiculous stories in her head.



I understand your view on economy AND environment. I was going to say that "I would think the economy is one that is quicker to fix." but IT ISN'T, so you've got a point.

YES!!!!!!!!! TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!
What I don't understand is WHY (from your perspective, as I have not read into the debate details themselves) Christians are so against Stem Cell Research? They don't want people playing God maybe? I really don't know.

I must say, you make REALLY good points and present them well.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 14, 2008)

Ojinomoto said:


> What I don't understand is WHY (from your perspective, as I have not read into the debate details themselves) Christians are so against Stem Cell Research? They don't want people playing God maybe? I really don't know.



Because they (wrongly) believe that in doing stem cell research, abortions are necessary to get the stem cells, which is bullshit. I don't know much about it, but that's my understanding of it anyways.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Because they (wrongly) believe that in doing stem cell research, abortions are necessary to get the stem cells, which is bullshit. I don't know much about it, but that's my understanding of it anyways.



True. But the proportion of stem cells is much greater in embryos than from the other sources like bone marrow.

It's interesting to note that the embryos themselves are in a very early stage of development. As far as I know anyway.

It's quite a controversial issue to say the least.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

ZeroSignal said:


> True. But the proportion of stem cells is much greater in embryos than from the other sources like bone marrow.
> 
> It's interesting to note that the embryos themselves are in a very early stage of development. As far as I know anyway.
> 
> It's quite a controversial issue to say the least.



I think you've got it, from what I remember they were talking of embryos and the like. It's not it's "alive" so I stopped really listen to any more of the discussion on the "Christian" viewpoint.

They really know how to fuck shit up though.


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

Ojinomoto said:


> I think you've got it, from what I remember they were talking of embryos and the like. It's not it's "alive" so I stopped really listen to any more of the discussion on the "Christian" viewpoint.
> 
> They really know how to fuck shit up though.



It's about the same as a amoeba but not even as conscious.  There's very little difference except one has 100% human DNA. Which is funny because we share 77% of our DNA with cabbages.


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## noodles (Feb 14, 2008)

Yes, most Christians wrongly assert that stem cells come from "ending lives". I call bullshit for two reasons:


You shouldn't have the right to tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body. Period. Especially if you're a man, since you don't know what it's like. I love how they try to use all this scientific evidence about beating hearts and developed nervous systems, since science is something they usually wipe their ass with. Either way, look up "judge not, lest yeah be judged" in your precious bible, have a Coke and a smile, and shut the fuck up.

Most stem cells come from _artificially inseminated embryos_. When a woman has her eggs harvested for artificial insemination, they take way more than they need. This is due to the relatively high failure rate of the procedure. Any embryos that are not used can be stored--for a fee--at the request of the parents. Otherwise, they are discarded. So, stem cell research was using the waste product of a medical procedure. Why don't I see Christians protesting artificial insemination? Why aren't they out there demanding that every test tube baby be implanted and carried to term?

So, we have learned two things:


Christians cannot even follow the teaching of their own book.

Christians cannot even educate themselves on the cause that they are rallying against.

This leads me to two generalities:


Christians are ignorant.

Christians are hypocrits.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

^ Another point to you.


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## noodles (Feb 14, 2008)

Now I feel bad for completely misunderstanding you to begin with. 

Pro-life is actually a relatively new thing. Abortion has been around forever, but was only made into an issue in the last century. Women used to know exactly what plants, and later, drugs, made them terminate their pregnancy.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

noodles said:


> Now I feel bad for completely misunderstanding you to begin with.
> 
> Pro-life is actually a relatively new thing. Abortion has been around forever, but was only made into an issue in the last century. Women used to know exactly what plants, and later, drugs, made them terminate their pregnancy.



No, it's just I need to do a better job at getting a point across, that's all.

You're right though, my teacher, who is an old, feminist type of lady, said that even if they do ban abortion, women will continue (an have always found ways) to kill their kids. "What if that kid invents ____ or cures ____?" This is what, and mostly the only, reasoning I hear beside the "scientific study on if a fetus is alive" excuse. One can "what if..." till the cows come home, but at the end of the day, what difference will it make to this Christian if another person kills their "kid," if you can even call it that? 

Oh how I love being on the fence!


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## noodles (Feb 14, 2008)

Well, Republicans hate the idea of people getting abortions, but they sure don't want to help you if you have a kid.

The depth of their hypocricy knows no bounds. /Doc


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## ZeroSignal (Feb 14, 2008)

noodles said:


> Well, Republicans hate the idea of people getting abortions, but they sure don't want to help you if you have a kid.
> 
> The depth of their hypocricy knows no bounds. /Doc



That's because they need a new christian army to sweep across the land under the banner of haliburton!


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 14, 2008)

> Yes, I do wonder, but Ive got bills and school and shit! I dont have the time to worry about things that wont do me any good now because at the end of the day, when everything has been proven and is deemed true and false, what then? Where would we be? Still here in this fucked up world with its real and more urgent problems snowballing the shit out of itself....
> 
> ...
> 
> No. These things ARE important to figure out. Debating on "where and how they came about" is what I don't get... Do I believe it is pointless to say whether or not this is true because I believe in Adam and Eve were the FIRST humans? Yes. That's the point I'm trying to make



I disagree with that on pretty much every single level. What about natural human curiosity and the nobility of the pursuit of knowledge? What about unforeseen applications of basic research? That's just another form of anti-intellectualism.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 14, 2008)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I disagree with that on pretty much every single level. What about natural human curiosity and the nobility of the pursuit of knowledge? What about unforeseen applications of basic research? That's just another form of anti-intellectualism.



Just like I told Noodles, it's not the topics that I'm disagreeing with, (or the quest to seek knowledge, for that matter) it's the "place" in which one is to find the truth of the matter. Who do I believe more, the Christian explanation of what brought man to where he is and not consider the rest, OR the scientific explanation that shows and maps out how and what we are and are related to in the animal kingdom? Of course I chose the latter, AND though I have no proof to say that I'm a descendant of Adam and Eve (nor can anyone else) I take what is written as just so, something that is written; vis-a-vis: a story. EDIT: This is why I said


> &#8220;Yes, I do wonder, but I&#8217;ve got bills and school and shit! I don&#8217;t have the time to worry about things that won&#8217;t do me any good now because at the end of the day, when everything has been proven and is deemed true and false, what then? Where would we be? Still here in this fucked up world with its real and more urgent problems snowballing the shit out of itself....


That's all. 

This here ^ is my main beef with this entire topic/thread The only thing that "we" have to base our perception on is an old book that is the product of an ancient civilization with no "clear" understanding as to HOW acts of the universe are brought about. That is why this kind of "Christian-thinking-is-right,-hands-down,-because-the-Bible-was-written-by-God" thing irritates the fucking shit out of me, more so with me because these are the very people who share my belief in the same god. They have no way of backing up the book with something substantial and understandable. All we get are fairy tales, bits and pieces of logic, some fucked up parts, and the notion that disagreeing with it is a scornful act!

Is that clearer now, maybe  ?


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## Jongpil Yun (Feb 15, 2008)

The only question I have, then, is why bother going through the trouble of making that leap of faith and saying you are the descendant of the biblical Adam and Eve? It seems like more trouble than it's worth, given that it's a lot of trouble to constantly make that leap of faith, and your benefit is practically zero.


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## Ojinomoto (Feb 16, 2008)

Well one, I'm not saying that I AM a descendant on them, I just recognize the fact that I COULD be, by biblical terms. I don't actually go around believing it 100%. (Again, I have no way of proving it so, I don't go around stating such a claim)

And the benefit to all of this (I'm glad you asked) goes all the way back to what I said earlier about
"yes I do wonder....when everything has been proven and is deemed true and false, what then? Where would we be?"
This is one of the things I'm getting at. What I don't get is why do "we" (God believers) go through the trouble debating, and trying to change shit, and forcing it onto people when "we" won't do anything but piss people off like we've done for past decades?

Peace of mind would be the only conclusion, but wheres the fun in that...lol


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