# Tech/prog deathmetal scales



## sarkophagus (Jun 14, 2010)

i was just wondering what scales the following bands use

-veil of maya
-death
-born of osiris
-within the ruins
-the faceless

help would be greatly appreciated


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## Seedawakener (Jun 14, 2010)

Well... Probably a few.

Dominant Phrygian/Spanish Phrygian is very often used as a tonal scale in this sort of music.
Melodic and harmonic minor as well. 

There is also a lot of usage of symmetrical scales like the whole tone scale and the whole-half diminished scale.

Hope I could help!


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## Caveman (Jun 14, 2010)

yeah i know nothing about music theory. someone should totally teach me.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 14, 2010)

Whatever works. Natural minor, harmonic minor, phrygian, phrygian dominant, diminished octatonic, some whole tone (to a lesser degree than the others), and a lot of things are chromatically derived. Sometimes, you'll only hear a diminished chord as a pitch source. Occasionally, the notes will be derived from the chords in a jazzier manner, particularly, when there are chords outside of the key.


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## sarkophagus (Jun 14, 2010)

any chance of finding out what scale the riff at 3:40 is in this song

because i would like to mess around with it, it has a kinda of medievil or something sound wich i find pretty interesting


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## Caveman (Jun 14, 2010)

woa i like that band. and i dig that riff as well. nice choice


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 14, 2010)

sarkophagus said:


> any chance of finding out what scale the riff at 3:40 is in this song



It's harmonic minor, but they're not bringing a lot of attention to the leading tone.


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## sarkophagus (Jun 14, 2010)

thanks shecterwhore 
i need you skills once again



what scales are used in this song at like 0:38-0:56 and 2:47-3:06


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## theo (Jun 14, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> diminished octatonic.



I havent heard the term octatonic used before, Is this just a fancy way of saying a diminished scale?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 14, 2010)

Those sumeriancore bands you listed use a lot of harmonic minor scales.


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## sarkophagus (Jun 14, 2010)

thanks for the help but just before i get a bad name i dont just listen to these sumeriancore bands my biggest influence are death wich where the godfathers of deathmetal but i cant just listen to death all day everyday so i find that these new band are putting alot of chucks old techniques into practice and its kinda like a revival of good guitar playing!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 14, 2010)

sarkophagus said:


> what scales are used in this song at like 0:38-0:56 and 2:47-3:06



0:38 is in Eb major. It stays on the I chord for a while, then that change is to the vi chord.

2:47 is G minor (I think). It's mostly natural minor, but there's some harmonic minor thrown in every now and then.



theo said:


> I havent heard the term octatonic used before, Is this just a fancy way of saying a diminished scale?



Yeah. "Diminished scale" is understood to be made of two interlocking diminished seventh chords (like Cdim7, C Eb Gb Bbb, and C#dim7, C# E G Bb; C h/w diminished scale - C C# D# E F# G A Bb). It so happens that this scale has eight tones. Well, 'eight' = 'octa', 'tones' = 'tonic', so people refer to it as the octatonic scale. However, there are more scales that are octatonic that are not _*the*_ octatonic scale, such as the bebop scales, so I like to refer to it as the 'diminished octatonic scale' to remove all doubt. Interestingly, I've heard the w/h version identified as the diminished scale, and the h/w version as the dominant scale.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jun 14, 2010)

sarkophagus said:


> thanks for the help but just before i get a bad name i dont just listen to these sumeriancore bands my biggest influence are death wich where the godfathers of deathmetal but i cant just listen to death all day everyday so i find that these new band are putting alot of chucks old techniques into practice and its kinda like a revival of good guitar playing!



Why would that give you a bad name? 80% of the forum loves those guys


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## sarkophagus (Jun 14, 2010)

oh right cool!! im just so used to ignorant comments about that new style and am kinda sick of them

i saw that born of osiris where hated a good bit on this forum though
i personally think they are geniuses


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## getaway_fromme (Jun 14, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> 0:38 is in Eb major. It stays on the I chord for a while, then that change is to the vi chord.
> 
> 2:47 is G minor (I think). It's mostly natural minor, but there's some harmonic minor thrown in every now and then.



2:47 is in F harmonic minor and 
3:40 is in C harmonic minor


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 14, 2010)

getaway_fromme said:


> 2:47 is in F harmonic minor and
> 3:40 is in C harmonic minor



You're looking at the wrong song. The 2:47 question was in reference to the Born of Osiris track.


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## Necky379 (Jun 14, 2010)

sarkophagus said:


> any chance of finding out what scale the riff at 3:40 is in this song
> 
> because i would like to mess around with it, it has a kinda of medievil or something sound wich i find pretty interesting




thats a cool riff dude, never heard of them before but i like it.


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## Caveman (Jun 15, 2010)

where do you learn music theory such as this? im self taught. and honestly you'd probably all think i was guitar downsyndrome. at least when it comes to music theory.

and who doesnt like born of osiris? when i saw them live i was quite impressed.


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## SerratedSkies (Jun 15, 2010)

Diminished scales and Harmonic Minor scales have always givin death metal that evil sound it's looking for, specifically because of that half step leading tone.

How does one learn stuff like this? Well, lucky for us guitar players, most of this stuff is positional.

Assuming you're in standard tuning;

(Do not read these scales as triads. Read them as sets of triplets stacked upon each other. I'm at work, so I can't tab all that well. Again, they are NOT chords. They're poorly tabbed scales.)

e
B
G 8 9
D 7 9 10
A 7 9 10
E

That would be E Harmonic Minor. Shift it up a half step, you have F Harmonic Minor. Shift it down a step, you have D Harmonic Minor. Phrygian Dominant is just starting this scale from it's 5th position.



e
B
G 6 8 9
D 7 8 10
A 7 9 10
E 

A diminished scale with E as your root note.


It's very important to know the difference between a natural Minor and a harmonic Minor, because together those two create the Melodic Minor scale, which incorporates both styles of leading tones (Half step and whole step).


Also, I'd like to add that a lot of bands are less theorectical then you would think. The Faceless, for one, has a lot of riffs constructed around minor thirds and whole tones. Yes, you can fit that within certain scales and diminished runs, but everyone knows how it is to create a riff out of nothing but minor thirds. Ghost of a Stranger and Hypocrisy come to mind as far as Faceless songs (Shit.. they practically have the same riff in them!)


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## Psychobuddy (Jun 15, 2010)

@Caveman, I learned a lot just from personal study. An excellent place to start is Guthrie Govan's Creative Guitar books, the first one in particular. I'm self taught and I'm competent in music theory not as beastly as Mike [SchcterWhore] but I think he is in music school.

The best advice is to just jump into theory it takes a while to get a firm grasp on it but it is worth in the end.

Sorry to go off topic but he asked the question so I answered it...I think.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 15, 2010)

When I'm figuring this stuff out, I listen to whether it's modal or has a 'leading tone' sound to it, and if it's neither, then I either recall the sound of the scale, or if it's unfamiliar, then I get my guitar and pick out tones from the scale one by one until I know the intervallic composition of the scale. As for knowing the key, I find the tonic chord on my guitar and I'm pretty much set. It's all ear training and theory, and not even a whole lot of it. And, yeah, I'm enrolled in a music program at a community college (that just so happens to have really kickass faculty).


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## SerratedSkies (Jun 15, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> When I'm figuring this stuff out, I listen to whether it's modal or has a 'leading tone' sound to it, and if it's neither, then I either recall the sound of the scale, or if it's unfamiliar, then I get my guitar and pick out tones from the scale one by one until I know the intervallic composition of the scale. As for knowing the key, I find the tonic chord on my guitar and I'm pretty much set. It's all ear training and theory, and not even a whole lot of it. And, yeah, I'm enrolled in a music program at a community college (that just so happens to have really kickass faculty).


 

This being said, don't you find it extremely easy to pick out harmonic minor, no matter what the mode? I just seem to always know who's abusing harmonic minor.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 15, 2010)

SerratedSkies said:


> This being said, don't you find it extremely easy to pick out harmonic minor, no matter what the mode? I just seem to always know who's abusing harmonic minor.



Pretty much. Harmonic minor is an easy sound.


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## theo (Jun 15, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> Pretty much. Harmonic minor is an easy sound.



the raised seventh sticks out, thats how I pick it. and also at the previous post...<fanboy> GUTHRIE HAS GUITAR [email protected]>!!#$ I NEED TO BUY THESE <fanboy/> XD


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## Caveman (Jun 15, 2010)

Woa thanks everyone. its suprising to most people ive been playing seven years and can play things like the faceless and pantera solos n whatnot when i dont know anything past string tunings. 

thanks for the advice later tonight im sure ill bury myself in learning all this.

i only have one last question since it seems i can get answers from highly competent players.

the dimebag solo from domination does a run with these notes

E12 15 18
A12 15 18 19
D12 15 18
G12 15 18
B12 14 15 18
E12 14 15 18

what scale/mode or what not is that?
thanks again though you guys are seriously awesome


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## TXDeathMetal (Jun 15, 2010)

> thanks for the help but just before i get a bad name i dont just listen to these sumeriancore bands my biggest influence are death wich where the godfathers of deathmetal but i cant just listen to death all day everyday so i find that these new band are putting alot of chucks old techniques into practice and its kinda like a revival of good guitar playing!



Well if you listen to a lot of Death and Chuck Schuldiner's work then you should already be familiar with a few of these different types of scales. I will also admit that I'm not that strong when it comes to theory but I do believe that Chuck liked to use a lot of Phrygian scales in his work (listen to the intro to "Zombie Ritual"... I believe it is used there) and probably a a good deal of harmonic minor scales. If you are into bands like Necrophagist and The Black Dahlia Murder then I know those guys use the hell out of the harmonic minor scale in their leads/solos.

As I said above I'm not that strong when it comes to theory but I do believe that the examples I listed are correct.


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## Caveman (Jun 15, 2010)

just an update but ive already went and got the guthrie govan books thanks for the advice again.


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## avenger (Jun 16, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> 0:38 is in Eb major. It stays on the I chord for a while, then that change is to the vi chord.
> 
> 2:47 is G minor (I think). It's mostly natural minor, but there's some harmonic minor thrown in every now and then.
> 
> ...


 This has actually been quite helpful but there is jsut one thing I want to clear up with the diminished scale. 

I see diminished w/h or diminished h/w am I right to beleive this just means starting from the root note you alternate whole step/half step or half step/whole step depending on the version (w/h, h/w). Or does the w/h denote something completely different?


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## ShadyDavey (Jun 16, 2010)

Could be several things - 12 - 15 - 18 is a diminished triad (12th fret root) 12-15-19 is a minor triad (12th fret root again) 12-14-15-18 could be viewed as part of a harmonic minor scale (E and then B I think)....Dime played a lot of shapes without referrence to theory simply because he liked the way they sound. 

That lick from cowboys from hell where he takes the 11-12-15 shape across the strings - you could break it down and analyse each string in terms of a scale but sometimes it's better just to stick with the old adage "If it sounds right, it is right"


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## Johnboy_Ice (Jun 16, 2010)

avenger said:


> am I right to beleive this just means starting from the root note you alternate whole step/half step or half step/whole step depending on the version (w/h, h/w).


 



(If I am wrong please plaese correct me for my own sake as well as for the sake of those who listen to me)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jun 16, 2010)

avenger said:


> This has actually been quite helpful but there is jsut one thing I want to clear up with the diminished scale.
> 
> I see diminished w/h or diminished h/w am I right to beleive this just means starting from the root note you alternate whole step/half step or half step/whole step depending on the version (w/h, h/w). Or does the w/h denote something completely different?



Yes, you're right.


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## MLI (Jun 17, 2010)

The Faceless use mostly natural minor scales, but the key to their sound is that they rapidly shift between keys chromatically.

Like: little lick in C minor, then the exact same lick a minor third up (Eb minor).

Try it.


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