# Building a bass rack - Any tips?



## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

Well I'm building a budget bass rack, and have decided to go with the Sansamp RBI for a preamp. However, finding a non wallet busting power amp seems like I'm asking for far too much, but I found what could be a hit/miss deal with a PA amp
Buy Behringer A500 500W Reference-Class Studio Power Amplifier | Live Power Amplifiers | Musician's Friend

Before you guys bust my balls about it being a behringer (Seeing as a few people here shake their heads in shame to their stuff), I just need to know, would using a PA power amp work just as well as using a bass power amp? By theory, it should.. But I'd like to know from those who would know from first hand experience. Also, if you know any good bass power amps or PA power amps for cheap, lemme know!


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## damigu (Sep 7, 2010)

carvin makes some great bass amps and are very affordable. i have an old carvin 500 watt solid state that i absolutely love (got it for $500 along with a matching 1x15" cab). sometimes i throw a tube pre-amp in front of it for a little grit.


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 7, 2010)

PA power amps are the norm for a bass rack. I don't really know anybody who uses bass amplifier brand power amps unless they are going for the visual appeal.

You're not going to get any decent power from the Behringer though, or any other no-name power amp. They overrate their wattage dramatically and aren't reliable (this isn't Behringer hate, I love their mixers and they have some good products, they do have some products you should avoid and this is one of them)

You should also be looking at more power than 600w bridged at 8ohms. What cab(s) are you using?

Check your local craigslist for power amps, there are usually a lot out there. Also check your local music stores rental department and see if you can buy something used. Anything worth buying as a power amp will run non-stop for decades because that's what they're designed to do. Yamaha, Peavey, Yorkville, QSC, Stewart, those are the brands you should be looking at.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

SargeantVomit said:


> PA power amps are the norm for a bass rack. I don't really know anybody who uses bass amplifier brand power amps unless they are going for the visual appeal.


Alright, thats a good thing to know, was sort of wondering what was with the lack of selection for bass power amps.


> You're not going to get any decent power from the Behringer though, or any other no-name power amp. They overrate their wattage dramatically and aren't reliable (this isn't Behringer hate, I love their mixers and they have some good products, they do have some products you should avoid and this is one of them)


Understandable. Are there any more specific cheaper brands I should look for in power amps? Or is going used my best bet? I'll assume the latter 


> You should also be looking at more power than 600w bridged at 8ohms. What cab(s) are you using?


For now I'm just looking for a temporary cheaper power amp to power a 2x15 and 2x10, possibly a 4x10 if I can find a cheap (GOOD) used one, and we're currently only playing small to medium venues so superpower volume levels aren't necessarily needed, as this is just for rehearsal means (As most of the time, the sansamp will spend it's time going straight into the PA, depending on the gig and if there's a PA or not). 


> Check your local craigslist for power amps, there are usually a lot out there. Also check your local music stores rental department and see if you can buy something used. Anything worth buying as a power amp will run non-stop for decades because that's what they're designed to do. Yamaha, Peavey, Yorkville, QSC, Stewart, those are the brands you should be looking at.


Definitely, I'll be doing that. Thanks for the very informal post btw 

Also, I just realized I COULD run a stereo chorus and stereo delay through the poweramp in stereo.. Both being my favorite bass effects. And then to add to that, I could make a custom 2x10/1x15 cab for left and right...

Oh boy, I'm gonna have fun with this.


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 7, 2010)

Buy Crown XLS 802D Power Amplifier | Live Power Amplifiers | Musician's Friend

This Crown power amp is only $100 more than the Behringer, and is 1600w bridged at 8ohms compared to the Behringers 600w. Tons more clean headroom. and Crown is a leading power amp manufacturer. (I should have included them in my previous post)

500w stereo @ 8ohm.
800w stereo @ 4ohm.
1000w stereo @ 2ohm.
1600w mono @ 8ohm.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

SargeantVomit said:


> Buy Crown XLS 802D Power Amplifier | Live Power Amplifiers | Musician's Friend
> 
> This Crown power amp is only $100 more than the Behringer, and is 1600w bridged at 8ohms compared to the Behringers 600w. Tons more clean headroom. and Crown is a leading power amp manufacturer. (I should have included them in my previous post)
> 
> ...


Well shit, for that price I might aswell. I'm assuming Crown is the Rondomusic of poweramps with those prices (Well, except the direct seller shindig)?


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 7, 2010)

Nope, just on sale right now. Usually they're more expensive. 

The XLS802 is 35lbs, so the XLS line is at a lower pricepoint since they are heavier. Their XTi2000 has the exact same power ratings at 18lbs, so half the weight at $700.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

I see, makes sense.

Also, how are these?
Crown XLS1000 at zZounds

That little crossover system in them has me interested, as I do alot of complex bass playing for my band, often going between lower bits to higher and occasionally tossing in a few slaps, and even going as far as using a pick on certain parts in some songs. Do you know anything about how it preforms by chance?


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 7, 2010)

That's only 215w per channel, which is definitely small potatoes and IME not worth it. Also, a crossover setup isn't really an asset nowadays unless you are planning to run a dedicated sub and tops which is what it is mainly designed for. Essentially every bass cab is built to be full range. High pass and low pass filters on power amps just save you some effort when you are running 10 power amps at once in a PA rack.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

SargeantVomit said:


> That's only 215w per channel, which is definitely small potatoes and IME not worth it. Also, a crossover setup isn't really an asset nowadays unless you are planning to run a dedicated sub and tops which is what it is mainly designed for. Essentially every bass cab is built to be full range. High pass and low pass filters on power amps just save you some effort when you are running 10 power amps at once in a PA rack.


Okay, that makes sense. So I'm best off with an XLS802 huh? I'll definitely look into it then


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 7, 2010)

If that's at your budget point and there's nothing really popping up used that you see, I'd probably rock it. I just looked at some others on musiciansfriend and there aren't really many with those features under $500. Once you get to around that price range there's a lot more shopping around you can do. I like have the options of bridged-mono mode and 8-4-2ohms which a lot of the lower priced ones don't have. So yeah the Crown seems pretty good and it's the most popular seller on Musiciansfriend.


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## SnowfaLL (Sep 7, 2010)

Heres my bass/all-purpose rack..







Power conditioner
2U vent + lights
Digitech GSP1101 (effects, preamp for guitar)
Carvin BX500 (bass poweramp)

sounds pretty great. Once I get the rack panel for the BX500 it'll look better


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## damigu (Sep 7, 2010)

^^ sweet setup.

carvin is a great way to go for bass amps.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

I just got an awesome deal on a Peavey Pro 500. Specifically, a swap for my Valveking 100.. So I think I'm gonna take that and build from there. Later on I'll add a sansamp and use the peavey as a poweramp, or get a poweramp for the peavey to run it beyond it's standard 500 watts, depending on how much I like the peavey.. Can't really go wrong with a tube preamp  (Well, you can. You can go very, very, very wrong.. )


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## SnowfaLL (Sep 7, 2010)

do you know for sure if you can run a poweramp into a poweramp? (like say running a Mesa 20/20 tube poweramp into a 1000+ watt SS poweramp, to get more headroom).. or did you mean just for the preamp of the peavey pro 500??

I am looking for info on that, I wish I could run a Mesa 20/20 into a 1000+ watt SS poweramp, to maintain that tube warmth while being able to play bass thru it.. which would still be much cheaper/lighter/better than any 100W tube poweramp (which cant handle bass).. but i dunno if it works that way =/


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 7, 2010)

You can't run a power amp into a power amp. But you can probably run your preamp into each power amp separately then each to the cab of your choice.


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## TemjinStrife (Sep 7, 2010)

NickCormier said:


> do you know for sure if you can run a poweramp into a poweramp? (like say running a Mesa 20/20 tube poweramp into a 1000+ watt SS poweramp, to get more headroom).. or did you mean just for the preamp of the peavey pro 500??
> 
> I am looking for info on that, I wish I could run a Mesa 20/20 into a 1000+ watt SS poweramp, to maintain that tube warmth while being able to play bass thru it.. which would still be much cheaper/lighter/better than any 100W tube poweramp (which cant handle bass).. but i dunno if it works that way =/



Um no. That is a guaranteed recipe for two pieces of gear cooking themselves, possibly flamboyantly.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 7, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> Um no. That is a guaranteed recipe for two pieces of gear cooking themselves, possibly flamboyantly.


This. There is a way to do it via effects loop, however.


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## SnowfaLL (Sep 8, 2010)

there IS a way to do it, but you need to do a slight modification I think.. cause ive seen some amps that have it (and poweramps that are made to give tube warmth, then go into other poweramps, but they are expensive as shit)

just wish I knew someone who knew shit about amps well enough to help =[


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## SargeantVomit (Sep 8, 2010)

You can't send a speaker out on an amp to another amp input. Ever. 

As I said, you can split your signal from your preamp to two separate power amps, but you can't pull the tone from your tube power section to the SS poweramp. If you could, there would be no need to mic cabs on stage or for recording. 

You can't send a powered load through another amps input. It wouldn't work.


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## SnowfaLL (Sep 8, 2010)

There has been many small watt amps that can be run into other amps.. like 1-5 watt poweramps that are made to be plugged into other poweramps to be amplified.. so it can be done.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 8, 2010)

SargeantVomit said:


> You can't send a speaker out on an amp to another amp input. Ever.
> 
> As I said, you can split your signal from your preamp to two separate power amps, but you can't pull the tone from your tube power section to the SS poweramp. If you could, there would be no need to mic cabs on stage or for recording.
> 
> You can't send a powered load through another amps input. It wouldn't work.


Hmm.. Wouldn't running it via the effects loop allow you to transmit the preamp itself into a separate poweramp? By theory it should work, in the same way that using an amp as a power amp through an effects loop would.


NickCormier said:


> There has been many small watt amps that can be run into other amps.. like 1-5 watt poweramps that are made to be plugged into other poweramps to be amplified.. so it can be done.


This is true, as many active preamps in bass guitars run at least one watt (which is why many amps have an active/passive switch), however in a more practical sense plugging a full-on 500w power load into anything besides a DI box or speaker is guaranteed to destroy it.


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## damigu (Sep 8, 2010)

XeoFLCL said:


> Hmm.. Wouldn't running it via the effects loop allow you to transmit the preamp itself into a separate poweramp? By theory it should work, in the same way that using an amp as a power amp through an effects loop would.



you can run an amp's pre-amp out (AKA effects send) into another amp's effects input (or even it's direct input, but that's not recommended), but that won't give you any additional power at all because you're only using one amp's power stage.

if you do that, you're just using the pre-amp of one amp and the power-amp of the other. it's a useful trick for mixing/matching sounds, but won't give you any power boosts.



XeoFLCL said:


> This is true, as many active preamps in bass guitars run at least one watt (which is why many amps have an active/passive switch), however in a more practical sense plugging a full-on 500w power load into anything besides a DI box or speaker is guaranteed to destroy it.



i'm pretty sure your 1 watt number is VERY incorrect. that would mean you're pulling about 1/9 amps of current from a 9 volt battery. that is *REALLY* powerful and would drain your battery VERY fast. it's probably in the milliwatt range--like most things that use 9 volt batteries. 

the reason for the active/passive switch is because active signals as much closer to the peak. when you use the active input, the amp attenuates the signal before sending it to the amp's own pre-amp. there is no risk of frying your gear if you plug active pickups into a passive input, but your sound will be more likely to clip.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 8, 2010)

damigu said:


> you can run an amp's pre-amp out (AKA effects send) into another amp's effects input (or even it's direct input, but that's not recommended), but that won't give you any additional power at all because you're only using one amp's power stage.
> 
> if you do that, you're just using the pre-amp of one amp and the power-amp of the other. it's a useful trick for mixing/matching sounds, but won't give you any power boosts.


What I mean though, is, lets say we have a 1,200watt power amp. Our current amp is only 500watts, would it be safe, letalone possible to use that amp's preamp via effects loop, and run that into the 1,200watt poweramp? it only makes sense that it should work, as we've all seen the opposite done a million times, and the effects loop is an exact split between the preamp and power amp.. correct me if I'm mistaken 




> i'm pretty sure your 1 watt number is VERY incorrect. that would mean you're pulling about 1/9 amps of current from a 9 volt battery. that is *REALLY* powerful and would drain your battery VERY fast. it's probably in the milliwatt range--like most things that use 9 volt batteries.
> 
> the reason for the active/passive switch is because active signals as much closer to the peak. when you use the active input, the amp attenuates the signal before sending it to the amp's own pre-amp. there is no risk of frying your gear if you plug active pickups into a passive input, but your sound will be more likely to clip.


Yeah, you probably know more about how much the active preamps put out.. that was more of an uneducated guess since you can drive 5w headphones to an audible point with an active preamp or a distortion pedal or any 9v powered pedal really. I stand corrected then 

EDIT: D'oh, I completely skimmed over your post earlier Nick.. specifically this part 


NickCormier said:


> do you know for sure if you can run a poweramp into a poweramp? (like say running a Mesa 20/20 tube poweramp into a 1000+ watt SS poweramp, to get more headroom).. or did you mean just for the preamp of the peavey pro 500??


What I meant is it'd be the preamp of the peavey pro 500, going into the power amp of a Crown poweramp.


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## Bevo (Sep 8, 2010)

Some amps have a slave input or output that will send your exact tone to another amp. 
A tube preamp will also get you there.

Check out the Markbass stuff and let us know if SS sounds bad, those are some of the best SS sounding heads out there.

Nick, have you tried your GSP1101 as a pre for your bass?
I had some good luck with some Fender tones.


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## XeoFLCL (Sep 8, 2010)

Bevo said:


> Check out the Markbass stuff and let us know if SS sounds bad, those are some of the best SS sounding heads out there.


I'm pretty sure we're all SS lovers here, or so I hope. Tubes on bass amps besides a pre amp tube=$$$


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## Bevo (Sep 8, 2010)

Another thing to watch is your ohms, make sure your rig gets you down to max watts with the speakers you have.
Line up your amps so they are all 8 ohms then go for a 2 ohm max output amp, now you can 3 sets of speakers off that one amp.

Also check out the local DJ shop, they will have some crazy powered amps for decent prices.


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## damigu (Sep 8, 2010)

XeoFLCL said:


> What I mean though, is, lets say we have a 1,200watt power amp. Our current amp is only 500watts, would it be safe, letalone possible to use that amp's preamp via effects loop, and run that into the 1,200watt poweramp? it only makes sense that it should work, as we've all seen the opposite done a million times, and the effects loop is an exact split between the preamp and power amp.. correct me if I'm mistaken



do you know the specific brand and models of these amps?
that way we can look up the exact number and type of inputs/outputs they each have and suggest the best method for accomplishing this.



XeoFLCL said:


> Yeah, you probably know more about how much the active preamps put out.. that was more of an uneducated guess since you can drive 5w headphones to an audible point with an active preamp or a distortion pedal or any 9v powered pedal really. I stand corrected then



when you see headphones being sold as 5W or computer speakers sold as 100W, they're usually way below that. that's the peak rating, and very seldom is there an audio spike that reaches that peak. what's most important is the RMS rating, which is the max sustained signal that a speaker can handle.
that said, it doesn't take much power at all to drive a small speaker like what you find in headphones.


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