# 12 string fanned headless by Prat Basses, the 'Frassi'



## ixlramp (Feb 2, 2017)

^ Lowest string is a .266 by Kalium Strings. if you're concerned about the non-straight string run it's due to the string clamps having to be equally-spaced for strength but the string spacing at the nut being larger for lower strings.

Tuning is fourths low to high G# C# F# B E A D G C F Bb Eb, middle 4 is standard bass EADG, lowest G#00 is 13Hz.
Scales 34" to 37".
28 frets for a range of 84 semitones / 7 octaves.
FB page for the Frassi https://www.facebook.com/tungfrassi/
Not my instrument by the way.


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## A-Branger (Feb 2, 2017)

why?


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## bpprox22 (Feb 2, 2017)




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## olejason (Feb 2, 2017)

I guess


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## SD83 (Feb 2, 2017)

A-Branger said:


> why?




A part of me wants that .266 string, if only to annoy everyone else. Beautiful instrument, though the body seems really tiny even in comparison with the other instruments that size I saw. That thing probably weighs a ton anyways and you need stupidly large hands to play it


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## Hollowway (Feb 2, 2017)

That is awesome! If it were me, I'd probably do 37-40" and forego the highest string, but I applaud the craziness of this!


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## bostjan (Feb 2, 2017)

Someone needs to build a subcontra bass. I swear I saw one in the 1990's, but now I can't find any evidence it ever existed.

But yeah, add a little extra string spacing, make that sucker extra extra long scale, and slap some ridiculously thick strings on it, and let me tune it way down. 

Facebook is blocked for me, so, sadly, I can't see this monster in the OP. I will just imagine that it is glorious.


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## macgruber (Feb 3, 2017)

thats insane. i like it. is it possible to feel 13hz?


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## Leviathus (Feb 3, 2017)

Sick hand-piano!


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 3, 2017)

I never was one to crap on new things even if they don't appeal to me personally, so this is legit curiosity and not judgement, but what is the practical purpose of this? Don't people typically cut out frequencies that low since they're imperceptible to the human ear/bad for your average sound system?

I guess the whole saying "better to have and not need than to not have and want"applies here. I doubt that super low range will get used much, if at all, but god damn it if you don't have ALL the range needed to accomplish anything. 

Anybody have an idea what a string change would cost on this? lol


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## olejason (Feb 3, 2017)

Reproducing ultra low notes on bass is a huge topic that gets brought up ad nauseam on Talkbass.

TLDR: You can't reproduce the fundamental of those notes at any kind of meaningful volume but the overtone series _might_ make up for it.


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## ixlramp (Feb 3, 2017)

Erm, this forum is dedicated to extended range guitars.
Very few people would find G#00 usable, i wouldn't, but even if only one artist finds it useful that is justification enough.

Yes you hear the overtones, for very low notes the fundamental frequency of a bass note has very little energy in it, most of the sound and tone comes from the 2nd harmonic and up, which here would be 26Hz and up. For these subcontra strings G# C# the fundamental is of very little importance, for G# even the 2nd harmonic is not very important.
With enough amplification power you would certainly feel 13Hz through your body.

Here's a video of a 40" Kalium Guitar Works Quake bass strung G# C# F# B (top string is low bass B) through a high-quality fEarful cabinet. Even in the noise of NAMM, recorded on a moderate camera, stored in low quality mp3 by Youtube, you can still 'hear' the low G# (use headphones or sound system), although of course the lower strings don't sound too good. In person with a powerful sub-capable amplifier or PA is of course a very different experience.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NImeLLytgw

I guess the string set will be this one plus a .266 http://store.kaliumstrings.com/index.php/electric-bass-guitar/shop-by-material/hybrid-bass-guitar/balanced-tension/standard-scale/11-string-sets/bh-222-11bs.html


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## ixlramp (Feb 3, 2017)

Bostjan can you see https://scontent-sjc2-1.cdninstagram.com/t51.2885-15/e35/16122934_1547380328622940_1849312711775617024_n.jpg?ig_cache_key=MTQ0MDQwNDM0NjYwMDE1NjczMw%3D%3D.2

The latest one is the 3rd fanned 12 string headless by Prat Basses and has the longest scales.
The second one has an album here http://s672.photobucket.com/user/pratbasses/library/12%20Padouk%20and%20Ebony%20ebay?sort=3&page=1


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## ixlramp (Feb 4, 2017)

2/3rds down this page there is a WAV sample file of an Octave 4 Plus .262 G#00 string.
http://garrygoodman.com/round_wound_strings.htm


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## Insomnia (Feb 4, 2017)

Awesome stuff! Oscar is one of my favourite luthiers


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## Insomnia (Feb 4, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Someone needs to build a subcontra bass. I swear I saw one in the 1990's, but now I can't find any evidence it ever existed.
> 
> But yeah, add a little extra string spacing, make that sucker extra extra long scale, and slap some ridiculously thick strings on it, and let me tune it way down.
> 
> Facebook is blocked for me, so, sadly, I can't see this monster in the OP. I will just imagine that it is glorious.



Facebook is blocked?


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## ixlramp (Feb 5, 2017)

As far as i know this is the 2nd largest (string count and scale) ERB made, the 1st is the Letts Basses 13 string with 40" to 26" scales.


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## endmysuffering (Feb 5, 2017)

Okay then.


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## GuitarBizarre (Feb 5, 2017)

One day, I will see someone use a bass with this many strings to make some music I actually like and don't get bored of after a couple of minutes.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 5, 2017)

i have no idea how I would use something like this. The neck is so gigantic that tapping seems like the only reasonable way to play it. I've got big hands but I doubt I'd be able to fret the strings past the 6/7th string.


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## SD83 (Feb 5, 2017)

And I always thought the 13 string bass was just a series of mockups and something that looked like Dima Ghotics older and slightly more qualified brother build... I knew there are some 12 strings in existence, though they might have shorter scale (the only information I found right now for one of them just says the lowest string is a B00 at 15.4 Hz).
As for the reasonable way to play them... I kind of agree that tapping is probably the way t o go. Apparently not necessarily for all kinds of music/players though.


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## Action (Feb 5, 2017)

I'm curious how the neck width on these ultra ERB's compares to SF's 6-course 18 string and C3's 8-course 24-string. I like those instruments and find them more practical than 10+ courses. Or rather, I at least have some semblence of an idea what I would play on them... They also look similarly pretentious and over the top, and that's gotta be half of the point.  Some of these are "because I could" and "look at this gigantic freakin bass" instruments. And that's OK.

I'd personally rather have a subcontra instrument and a piccolo instrument b/c I don't use all this range at once. It is still crazy impressive, the luthiery and engineering that goes into these.


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## You (Feb 5, 2017)

Does it djent kek


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## PBC (Feb 6, 2017)

From my experience with string gauge, I would find it difficult to fret near the nut on the lowest strings. Interesting concept, would probably be better split into 2 instruments with an extended piccolo 37-32 for the B-Eb strings and a separate 4 string with a 42" or even 60" scale length (Upright Style) for the G#00-B.


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## Hollowway (Feb 6, 2017)

PBC said:


> From my experience with string gauge, I would find it difficult to fret near the nut on the lowest strings. Interesting concept, would probably be better split into 2 instruments with an extended piccolo 37-32 for the B-Eb strings and a separate 4 string with a 42" or even 60" scale length (Upright Style) for the G#00-B.



The longest electric strings in production are by Kalium, at 39.55". I think a super long scale would be cool, but it would definitely require some custom strings.


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## bostjan (Feb 6, 2017)

In an email to me years ago, Wishnevsky strongly suggested that he had done something with a 40" scale. Upright bases of >40" scale are fairly common. But, as far as an electric bass of sensible design, I haven't seen anything longer than the Quake. I'm sort of at a loss as to why, though - I've played tons of 35, 35.5, and 37 inch basses that felt absolutely comfortable in my hands, and I don't have monkey arms or spider fingers or anything like that. I would have thought that, what, with 8 string guitars going 28", 29" 30" and up, that there would have been at least a couple of production basses with longer scale lengths.

Anyway, I think those basses look absolutely stunning, although, I admit that the thought of a fretboard as wide as my forearm is long, is intimidating.


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## PBC (Feb 7, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> The longest electric strings in production are by Kalium, at 39.55". I think a super long scale would be cool, but it would definitely require some custom strings.



I've asked Kalium about this. Their specs state that the wound portion of the string is 41.75" long including the 1.625" taper at the bridge. Then there is the .375" added to the end of the that for the first wound. 

Theoretically the bass could be built with a 42" Scale length with the first tapered ends going through the nut. I use a similar concept with their guitar strings on my 30" scale. This helps me by not needing to widen the nut. 

The longest scale length you could go to would be 47" which is the longest that O4P makes their strings. Even an upright scale length would be a great improvement over the Quake. 

With help from Bostjan, here are some inharmonicity numbers for Subcontra basses. As you can see, upright is much better than the Quake and it doesn't get significantly better till the scale length reaches 60". The issue with 60 is that the space between the nut and the first fret is a whole inch larger than 41.75. Or said in another way, it's the equivalent of adding 10 frets behind the nut of a 34" scale bass 

I don't know how you would play it. Because of the Hz cycles of these low notes. I'd probably use it as a drone tone underneath the melodies on top of it. 

I've been thinking of getting a Dean Pace Contra (same as a Stagg 3/4 EUB) and tuning it to G#00, C#0, F#0, B0 but I'm not sure if I can fit the string gauge through the bridge and I don't know how to test it without buying one.


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## bostjan (Feb 7, 2017)

Ultra long scale basses could be played with the use of mechanisms similar to those on bass flute, where the finger positions are covered by buttons with pads under them, activated by levers that swivel beside the neck. Some beginner guitar gadgets use this idea to help novices play chords.

But, in practice, any sort of neck that was that long with added mechanisms on the far end would be very difficult to balance in a spansih-style playing position, with the bass horizontal. It would be more a thought for upright designs, which, IMO, are easier to deal with longer scale lenght anyway.


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## PBC (Feb 7, 2017)

Kinda like how an Octobass frets?


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## ixlramp (Feb 7, 2017)

As far as i know Skip of Kalium is experimenting with an EUB with a 60" scale, capable of sub 10Hz D#00 a fourth below G#00.

For extreme scale length it would be a case of moving the bridge away from the player and plucking further from the bridge, like an upright bass. Not ideal though.

An idea that has lots of potential for extreme scales is a tapping instrument, since one hand doesn't need to be anywhere near the bridge. Tapping also tends to bring out clarity from a string which would help for the low notes.

I'm imagining a Chapman Stick type instrument where the nut is at roughly the same place but the bridge end of the instrument is extended a long way down. It could have a very long fretboard because your right hand is able to reach quite a long way down.
The length would help it balance, the centre of gravity would be shifted downwards, i can imagine a narrow Stick-like instrument that is supported on a pivot near it's centre with a hip-belt, freeing up the shoulders from the weight.


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## AlexThorpe (Feb 7, 2017)

I love seeing basses like this. I currently play a 7 string bass and I am having a 10 string single course built by Prat basses. While a low low G# string isn't something I'd personally find useful, it's neat that things like that even exist.


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## Action (Feb 7, 2017)

PBC said:


> With help from Bostjan, here are some inharmonicity numbers for Subcontra basses. As you can see, upright is much better than the Quake and it doesn't get significantly better till the scale length reaches 60".



Since I know that players require a higher tension as scale increases for the string to _feel_ and be perceived as equally tight and playable, I'm always curious how much scale matters on its own when tension is appropriately 'scaled' to a player-comfortable tension. I had the data for 8 and 9 string guitars, and now this has shed some light on the subcontra department for me. Thanks to you both for this.

At the risk of sounding nitpicky... the tensions calculated for 34", 47" and and 41.3" are slightly unrealistic compared to the others, confounding the actual scale length comparison. edit: I realize you may have been going for guitar tension and not just bass tension in making this chart.


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## PBC (Feb 8, 2017)

Action said:


> Since I know that players require a higher tension as scale increases for the string to _feel_ and be perceived as equally tight and playable, I'm always curious how much scale matters on its own when tension is appropriately 'scaled' to a player-comfortable tension. I had the data for 8 and 9 string guitars, and now this has shed some light on the subcontra department for me. Thanks to you both for this.
> 
> At the risk of sounding nitpicky... the tensions calculated for 34", 47" and and 41.3" are slightly unrealistic compared to the others, confounding the actual scale length comparison. edit: I realize you may have been going for guitar tension and not just bass tension in making this chart.



The Quake was calculated with the the available numbers that C3 stated in the video. He mentions something like 40 lbs so that's what I went with. In terms of the other strings, I did go a bit lighter. I tried to have an even set of tension. Instead of having the lowest be disproportionately floppy. 

One of the things I disagree with is the concept of being able to use lighter strings of you get a longer scale length. There's a point where you start having to increase the gauge and tension to combat the extra distance the string is vibrating at. Winspear (Tom), and Holloway have noticed the same concept. For guitar, I found that I was able to use lighter strings until the guitar past the 29". I end up having to use heavier gauges to combat the weird oscillations on my 30" guitars. My hypothesis is that once you get past 41, that this will come into play. 

A 30lbs low B on a 34" scale is playable. I used a .118 low B on the 34 so you could compare the inharmonicity of a Quake vs the equivalent gauges on a 34" guitar. It wasn't entirely an example of ideal setups. 

Bostjan made a good point in a thread we had about how eventually the cycles of notes this low can't really ring out long enough for the brain to process. A quarter note at 120BPM is .5 seconds long. Since G#00 is 12.96 Hertz, if a quarter note is played. Only 6.48 cycles are heard by the ear. So the brain is trying to determine the note that basically is G#000. The brain will be able to "make up" a certain portion of what's missing. However if there are too many competing elements, like drums, dual guitars, and vocals then you will shift your listening to those parts because you won't need to buff the empty frequency. You'll still hear the note, it will just be very difficult to conscientiously isolate as you listen to the track. 

Although most of the claims are dubious in Proust Was A Neuroscienctist, it nevertheless illuminated that audiences had to learn how to hear some of the pieces Stravinsky had composed because it first sounded like noise. I recall when I was first getting into metal and heard Cannibal Corpse for the first time. It sounded just like noise but after a while, my brain, adapted and I was able to comprehend and understand musically what was happening. 

The same use of neuroplasticity applies to these super low notes. It just sounds like low mud the first time, but eventually you attune your ears and you are able to perceive the note. Because of how low these notes are (they are very close together in Hz, A00 is 13.75, less than 1 Hz from G#00) if there is too much inharmonicity the brain will hear two notes when one is played, like binaural beats, it's an interesting auditory phenomenon.


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## Schizo Sapiens (Feb 9, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> .


I'll be the first to say it: this thing is missing 1st string on both photos


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## SD83 (Feb 12, 2017)

Schizo Sapiens said:


> I'll be the first to say it: this thing is missing 1st string on both photos



There is a post on that facebook page where he says that the high string is on order, but had not arrived yet. 
And going back to that page, I wondered again why the apparent owner seems so convinced that this is something that is entirely different from anything that has done before, is unique, not a bass, not a guitar etc... it is not. It is extraordinary, sure, but I see nothing new or revolutionary in it. Unless that instrument was in fact 20 years or older.


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## Hollowway (Feb 12, 2017)

PBC said:


> The Quake was calculated with the the available numbers that C3 stated in the video. He mentions something like 40 lbs so that's what I went with. In terms of the other strings, I did go a bit lighter. I tried to have an even set of tension. Instead of having the lowest be disproportionately floppy.
> 
> One of the things I disagree with is the concept of being able to use lighter strings of you get a longer scale length. There's a point where you start having to increase the gauge and tension to combat the extra distance the string is vibrating at. Winspear (Tom), and Holloway have noticed the same concept. For guitar, I found that I was able to use lighter strings until the guitar past the 29". I end up having to use heavier gauges to combat the weird oscillations on my 30" guitars. My hypothesis is that once you get past 41, that this will come into play.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I agree 100% with all of this. Low notes and string length, like a lot of things in science, seem to obey different laws at extremes, because other variables are introduced, or become more prominent. I have a Quake in order that will be tuned to C#0, and I'm VERY interested in how that's going to respond.


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## ElRay (Feb 12, 2017)

PBC said:


> ... Interesting concept, would probably be better split into 2 instruments with an extended piccolo 37-32 for the B-Eb strings and a separate 4 string with a 42" or even 60" scale length (Upright Style) for the G#00-B.



And the electric Theorbo is re-re-re-re-invented. 

I've had one on my To-Do list for about a decade.


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## ixlramp (Mar 13, 2017)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBrj7ofq2c4

Introduction video by the owner.


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## olejason (Mar 14, 2017)

I'd be interested in hearing him try to play something on it. It looks like he was really struggling with the lower strings when he showed a chromatic scale.


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## crg123 (Mar 14, 2017)

Love it. My friend owns Holloways old OAF 10 FF.
https://c1.staticflickr.com/6/5475/9051303627_f8eb0fd72c.jpg


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## ixlramp (Mar 14, 2017)

I noticed the low G#00 13Hz was surprisingly clear for how low it is. Those Kalium Strings seem to work well for C# and G#.
For those rarely played lowest strings he could reach his fretting hand over the top of the neck or tap them, i was amazed he could just reach them with standard technique.


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