# .254" string for Low G#? Any experience?



## Prometeus (Jan 5, 2013)

Hello... I warn you all: this thread is about extended range and extended madness. 

I've built several 10 and 11 strings basses, both single scale and multiscale (usually 35"-32"). I'm actually going to finish my first 12 and got an inquiry about the maximum number of strings available.
My actual knowledge is that the thickest string available is a .254" made by Octave4plus, right? Anybody here tried it and could let me know if it works fine tuned as a Low G# (under a Low C#0)?  
The bass I'm going to finish will be tuned C#-Ab (from .195" to .007") and is a 34" scale. The thin strings should be fine with the tension. Don't even know why I didn't make it 35"-32" but I started the neck/fingerboard in February and can barely remember wanting a pretty simple project. LOL.
The bass will have (or has, it's almost finished) low Z ceramic singles with a Bartolini booster and volume/volume/tone controls like a J bass. If you're curious, this is the beast.
Any idea will be appreciated. I got a message from a guy wanting a 15... I guess he was really sad when I replied I could only go up to 13.


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## skeels (Jan 5, 2013)

Why not 15?

Madness, I say!


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## Winspear (Jan 5, 2013)

Circle K strings are constructed heavier than most so may give you more tension. I don't know the weight of O4Ps though. The 254 from Circle K will only give you 24lbs of tension..Not enough to me personally - I like basses at at least 35lbs and I find the tension even more important in lower tunings.
But..people are doing it and it works, so... 

I'm sure there is a 270 from LaBella though - Yves Carbonne uses them I think.


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## Kroaton (Jan 5, 2013)

LaBella make a 345 copper on nylon, though I have no ideea what kind of tension you'd get out of it.

Edit: You could also ask Skip from Circlek Strings if he'd be willing to make you a custom gauge.


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## Winspear (Jan 5, 2013)

(octave below 5 string bass drop G#) G# C# F# B E A D G C F A# D# G# (above high E of guitar)

skeels - It's impractical to go further. This is almost A440 which people struggle enough to achieve on guitar length, let alone bass. And that low string is 13hz
Prometheus - I presume O4P for that high string? Never used them - they can really tune that high on 34"? A normal 007 can barely reach G# on 27"

I would definitely have gone with a fan but it should be alright without if that's the case  Certainly looks killer, awesome work! 

Using a fan somewhere between the extremity of my ViK and a Dingwall would actually come out to about 8-9" span on a 13 string bass haha, that's hilarious. I guess with so many strings though, whilst good for the tuning, it would just be ridiculous how far apart some of the frets are even if it's no steeper angled than regular multiscale guitars..


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## Prometeus (Jan 5, 2013)

Well, I tried on a 35"-32" to stretch the 011 to the tuning of the 007" and it worked fine... 
I usually use the 35" as the longer scale 'cause this allows players to use whatever strings they want (SIT or Rotosound for everything down to F#, SIT, Octave4Plus or Circle of 4 for the rest).
I can make a 40" scale without problems but in this case the player will have to use custom strings only... not something very nice to deal with. 
Oh, I'm attaching a few pics of other ERBs. The dark brown one is the 35"-32" I tried the stretch thing on.


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## Hollowway (Jan 5, 2013)

Yeah, I'm not sure if O4P actually makes the .254 string available to the general public. But good luck on getting a string from them. I've been waiting over 6 months for a high A, and for the most part it seems like its the guitar equivalent of vaporware.

But Circle K could ship right away, so you could check that out. Not sure about the tension, as Ethereal was mentioning, though. That tension is higher than standard guitar tensions, but lower than bass tensions, so I would think it would work, given the inherent compromises necessary for such an ERB/G.

BTW, I'm a big fan of your work. I'd get one of your basses, but I already suck at guitar - I don't need to suck at two instruments!


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## Prometeus (Jan 5, 2013)

LOL... thanx a lot!
For this bass I should be OK with the strings but for a 13 I'd definitely need something big like a .254". The .195" I use for the C# isn't great but at least is readily available...


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## GenghisCoyne (Jan 5, 2013)

i dont have anything of value to contribute, i follow you on facebook and just wanted to say im a huge fan of your work. when i can afford one i will have one.


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## Hollowway (Jan 5, 2013)

Yeah, for those who aren't familiar, follow Prometus on FB. Absolutely beautiful ERBs and a ridiculously affordable price. But be careful! Once you see them you'll never get the siren song out of your mind.


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## Winspear (Jan 5, 2013)

Woah, are you sure you got an 011 to G4# at 32"!? I am 100% certain that is impossible. 40lbs+ tension. 
I've read the trouble some of these guys go through getting there even with the really thin strings - such as Yves Carbonne and he's tuning to F# not G#...Even the O4P site only suggests F# as the highest on standard scaled basses.


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## knuckle_head (Jan 5, 2013)

I did G# with a Quake - it's awesome.

My .254 was light but it worked - it had around 32 pounds of tension. I showed it 2 years ago at NAMM. I had a 21" Infra sub that nearly got me a very audible fundamental and ALL of the overtone series. I intend to record it properly at some point so that it can be heard in its entirety given the proper playback environment.

Octave 4 Plus can make a string up into the .300s I understand - a bit more tension for G# would be nice. 

I have .254s in stock for 40" scale lengths if you are willing to deal with lighter tensions.


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## Winspear (Jan 5, 2013)

Skip - are the any more pics/vids/clips of Quakes floating around? I'm so interested in your work but it's awfully hard to find stuff, of course. I heard you build multiscales too but haven't seen any of those. 
How is that 60"er coming along?


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## knuckle_head (Jan 5, 2013)

The 60" got shelved while we work out how to do a .254 for it - it is difficult to make those for 40". The torque on the string during the winding process is brutal, but we'll figure it out.

For as long as I've been doing this there are not many of my basses out in the world. I don't do process pics, and usually get approval from owners to release photos of their instruments. Bad marketing I suppose, but I kind of prefer to be quietly intimate with my builds. That I don't do build photos does annoy my customers.

Much on the boards for 2013 so hopefully some decent bass pr0n in the not-too-distant future. If you scrounge on Facebook for NAMM stuff there is a fair amount to be seen methinks . . . . and what I do have I am trying to compile into a gallery. But as I said, there isn't as much out there as one would believe.


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## ixlramp (Jan 6, 2013)

Octave 4 Plus do a .270 for G#00, there's a recording here Round Wound Strings.
On 34" their plain strings can only get you to F#4 so i think you might have to tune the 12 as Yves does BEADGCFBbEbAbDbGb. The Circle K Strings .254 would have a good tension at B00.


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## Prometeus (Jan 6, 2013)

Well, thanx to everyone for the help and the kind words about my instruments!

I'm obviously willing to experiment. The strings I usually use are SIT/Conklin for the .195", .007", .011", .015". The .175" and the other ones are Rotosound. Not extremely happy with the sound and feel but they're easier to get here in Europe. I've also used SIT for most of the set and they're a bit better but I'm not very happy with the C# while the .007" struggles to keep up with the other strings. I think it needs more tension but still don't know how it will work as an A#... I'll have to find out. The bass is rough but substantially ready to play, though, I only need strings and hardware. I've made 2 Ceramic singles for it, medium to low impedance as I think the extra lows and highs and the low distorsion would be good on such a big bass and I'll get the lost output back using a Bartolini signal booster. 
I'd be curious to try out a few of the huge strings you guys are recommending but I've never been very good with custom orders... I really prefer readily available stuff. I make 95% of the instruments by myself so I haven't got used to waiting for parts or pickups to be made


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## Prometeus (Jan 6, 2013)

EtherealEntity said:


> Woah, are you sure you got an 011 to G4# at 32"!? I am 100% certain that is impossible. 40lbs+ tension.
> I've read the trouble some of these guys go through getting there even with the really thin strings - such as Yves Carbonne and he's tuning to F# not G#...Even the O4P site only suggests F# as the highest on standard scaled basses.



Nope, I stretched the .011" a forth higher than standard and it worked fine... this is what made me think the .007" could be used a forth higher. But of course I'll have to try it to find out. The .011" was made to be tuned as Bb (after the high F) but I stretched it to Eb.


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## Winspear (Jan 6, 2013)

That's impressive indeed  
But sadly as the gauges go down at this point the strings get much, much weaker. 
The breaking tension of a regular 007 is around 15lbs, an 008 around 17lbs. This is in the G#-A4 area on 25.5" so of course on a bass more around E4. 
I agree with ixlramp that the highest you will be able to tune this bass is F#4 using the O4P strings and that will be pushing it. 
When you say struggles to keep up - do you mean in volume? Below 009 they do indeed get incredibly quiet...I've been able to counter this perfectly fine with adjustable pole pieces on the pickups, to give equal volume on clean and equal gain on distortion. 
Kudos for you for pushing the envelope


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## Prometeus (Jan 6, 2013)

Yes, the .007" struggles in volume, expecially on fretless. The metal fret certainly helps it. So I'm gonna have troubles with that string? Ouch. Well, in the worst case I'll add a Low G# (the thickest I can find) and will ditch the .007"!


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## ixlramp (Jan 7, 2013)

Yeah on the O4P site it states the highest tuning for their plain steel bass strings as F#4 on 34/35" scale, and O4P plain strings tune higher than any string i know of. However Scott Fernandez has apparently managed to tune the SIT .007 up to F#4 so you might have luck with that string.

Make sure all surfaces are completely smooth and free from sharp edges: saddle, nut, tuner post and tuner post hole. Also put some graphite dust (from a pencil) in the nut and saddle as a lubricant. Tune up very slowly semitone by semitone allowing the string to stretch for a few minutes each semitone.

For your 12 string i recommend Circle K Strings' .254 11 string set plus O4P or SIT .007 on top.

I have a fretless bass wth a .009p and i often use my fingernail to fret it, this produces a bright tone with long sustain.


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## Prometeus (Jan 7, 2013)

I think I'll discover if it works pretty soon... I should receive hardware and the missing strings in about a week.


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## ixlramp (Jan 9, 2013)

I recently discovered a European source for big strings, Pyramid strings of Germany sell .150 .160 .170 and .175 here http://schneidermusik.de/shop1/advanced_search_result.php/manufacturers_id/22/categories_id/1000256/cPath/397_66_100_1000256/search_in_categories/1/search_in_manufacturers/1/search_in_manufacturers/1
... and in their catalogue they say they can do larger sizes on request.


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## Prometeus (Jan 9, 2013)

I contacted them once... they weren't very polite and almost laughed at me when I asked for .175" and .007" 

So... can I start building the 13 strings? I was considering the usual 35"-32" fan, 16mm spacing at bridge and maybe 4" nut width. 
I know 35" isn't much but... I'd prefer to have a wider choice, at least for the "normal" strings and over 35" life gets tough.


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## ixlramp (Jan 9, 2013)

Yeah i hope you do make a 13, as far as i know no-one has made a practical 13 string bass. I do think it is possible, as Ethereal Entity posted above, tuned G#00 to G#4, but it will need to be fanned down to 28" or 29" to acheive G#4. Octave 4 Plus have guitar strings designed for A4 on a 28" or 28.625" scale, however they are very delicate and require very careful setup. Perhaps a reasonable fan of roughly 1/2 inch per course, over 13 strings this gives 6" of fan. So perhaps 35"-29" or 35"-28"?

That 10 string fretless you posted above is so beautiful, i hadn't seen that one before. I am also so looking forward to the 12 string 

Apparently it helps the highest string to have the tuner post as close to the nut as possible and with only a little downforce, like Garry's new guitar (below). Combining this with a fan might be difficult though...


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## Prometeus (Jan 9, 2013)

Well, if I'll be able to tune the 12 as I plan, the 13 will be the same... Just withan extra low string. I'm pretty positive it will work... If it doesn't I'll tune it with a lower string and will wait for the 13 to put the thinnest one on. I'm still waiting for the missing ones to show up but I already have the 015, 011 and 007 here, together with the 195. The postal service sucks. I probably need 10 days or so to build the beast but I also have to build a fiver for a customer from Japan, so I think I'll need about a month 
I have no problem with different scales but if the 007 doesn't break I'll go for 30" or 32" minimum or the fan will get too wild.


Thanx for the kind words!


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## Prometeus (Jan 11, 2013)

Ok, I've finally strung the thing up... and you guys were right, the .007" string explodes before getting to the right pitch. 
I've been a fool to base my guess on the 011"... the 07" isn't that tough. I don't know if I should try with a slightly thicker gouge (like 08 or 09), tune the last string lower or simply ditch it and put a G# under the C#.


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## knuckle_head (Jan 11, 2013)

A .008 at 32" tuned to F# won't hang - the string will maybe tolerate F but only for a little while. The .009 won't do it either I don't believe.


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## Prometeus (Jan 11, 2013)

Uh... so it looks like I'll have to add a lower string? That's bad. 
Or I could reduce the number of strings to 11, getting a wider spacing. Wouldn't be bad but it would be a shame.


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## Winspear (Jan 11, 2013)

You can experiment with strings but absolutely no gauge is going to make it if F# is the limit with O4P strings which are considerably stronger.

G4# is just about the practical limit with 007s 008s and 009s on 25.5" guitar, so translate that 5 semitones lower for the same tension on 34". 

You will be lucky to reach E with any of those strings - D or D# is quite doable.


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## Prometeus (Jan 11, 2013)

So looks like a 12 can only be made with a pretty big fan... my bad, my good experience with the 011" ripped me off.


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## Winspear (Jan 11, 2013)

It would certainly help but it'll be possible even without O4P...just need to tune it lower. Skip said up above that the 254 G# was workable but could be tighter. So perhaps you could tune it with a high D# 007 and low G# - the lower portion of a 13 string.


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## Prometeus (Jan 11, 2013)

Yeah, I'll have to choose between going down to 11 strings or adding that beast. 
Oh, forgot to add that the bass is 6.6kg. 100g more than the Ovangkol 10 strings I've just sold.


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## in-pursuit (Jan 11, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> Yeah, I'll have to choose between going down to 11 strings or adding that beast.



if I were you I would probably consider going with a stepped fan for the highest string if it's going to give you that much trouble. you might be able to get away with your originally planned tuning if you place the nut for that string where the first fret would be, 2nd fret maybe if necessary. if you havent fretted the neck yet you could maybe do a compound multiscale and increase the degree of the fan on the bottom couple of strings maybe? just a few random thoughts, it would be a shame to see this guitar reduced to a mere 11 strings


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## ixlramp (Jan 12, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> So looks like a 12 can only be made with a pretty big fan...


A non fanned 12 is possible, Yves 34" 12 string fretless is tuned B E A D G C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb with an O4P .006 or something on top.






The SIT .007 is designed for Eb4 on 34", mine lasted a month tuned to that on 35".
Since you say you prefer readily available strings to custom, without using O4P you can string a 34" non fanned 12 string G# C# F# B E A D G C F Bb Eb using CKS .254 for G# and SIT .007 for Eb.
(I hope you keep it a 12 string )


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## skarz (Jan 12, 2013)

ixlramp said:


>



 OMG!!!!!! 

GAS syndrome is starting BADDDDD.


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## Prometeus (Jan 12, 2013)

The bass is complete or close to being complete... the fingerboard has frets, I only have to dress them...
I always hated the skinny .007" string, though. So the only chance to keep it with 12 is adding the Low G#. Making it an 11 isn't bad neither, I'd widen the spacing of 1mm making it 16.5 and would make new pickups for it. The mod would be almost invisible. Don't know, can't decide. I sent a message to Yves Carbonne yesterday, asking where I could find that huge low string. We'll see what he says


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## Manurack (Jan 12, 2013)

I read the title and was all like  lol

I always find it interesting when musicians play these type of crazy stringed instruments! I've only used 6 and 7 string guitars, and the bassist dude from Dream Theater thrilled me when they played Glass Prison on the first Gigantour dvd 

I hope stuff works out for you dude!


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## Prometeus (Jan 12, 2013)

Well, I've built several 10s and 11s... never had problems. But of course when you're pushing the limits away you're gonna find some resistance... in this case, given by the combination of string weakness and scale length.
Besides I really don't know what I'm going to do of this beast... selling or keeping it and try to play it, maybe? 
I'd be curious to find out how well the G# works. I must admit I'm a bit skeptical.


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## knuckle_head (Jan 12, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> I sent a message to Yves Carbonne yesterday, asking where I could find that huge low string. We'll see what he says



I provide them to Yves or La Bella does - and La Bella produces the string I designed for them 8 years ago.


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## Prometeus (Jan 12, 2013)

LOL... of course I didn't know it. Anyway I think that string is the thickest one around, correct?


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## ixlramp (Jan 12, 2013)

A few years ago there was a member of the subcontrabassist forum, username 'Thonk', from Germany i think, who developed a .335 for G#. He said they were 'available' but then he disappeared from the forum. i think he is the owner of the 37" scale 9 string Ritter bass?


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## Prometeus (Jan 13, 2013)

Uhm... no idea. I've contacted Circle of K for the .254... we'll see what happens. The bass is close to being finished but have to take care of a fretless six for a customer before I can spend some time on it.


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## ixlramp (Jan 13, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> Anyway I think that string is the thickest one around, correct?


The .270 from O4P is the thickest available string, but the thickest readily available non-custom string is the .254 from CKS


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## Prometeus (Jan 13, 2013)

But Jaco only needed 4 strings!


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## Prometeus (Jan 14, 2013)

Ok, what about 34" - 30" for the 13? Any chance the thinnest string will survive?
I hope I won't have to go down to 28"!


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## knuckle_head (Jan 14, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> Ok, what about 34" - 30" for the 13? Any chance the thinnest string will survive?
> I hope I won't have to go down to 28"!



You can safely get F from a .008 at 30" - F# maybe, but not for very long. 29" will give you F# with a .008.

No experience with .007 - too damn dainty for me.


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## Prometeus (Jan 14, 2013)

The tuning should be G# - C# - F# - B - E - A - D - G - C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab (from .254" to .007")... the 35"-32" 10 strings I've just sold was tuned from F# to Eb (.175" to .011"). So I'd add the 007" and the bigger ones. The .007" is a real pain!


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## ixlramp (Jan 14, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> Ok, what about 34" - 30" for the 13?





Prometeus said:


> The tuning should be G# - C# - F# - B - E - A - D - G - C - F - Bb - Eb - Ab (from .254" to .007")


Yeah that's possible but only with an Octave 4 Plus plain string on top.
I had a look at this page octave4plus.com
Garry's first 12 string was tuned C#0 to Ab4 with a 34" to 32" fan. But i seem to remember that was really pushing his strings to the limit and he often detuned the bass. For a while he was selling guitar strings for A4 on 30" but these were too fragile for many customers and are no longer publicly visible on the website. They currently sell guitar strings for A4 on 28.625". Also, his current 12 string has a 29" scale and is tuned D0 to A4, this theoretically makes Ab4 at 30" possible.

You will need to contact O4P to discuss and they will design the string precisely for your needs. I have only used the bass .007 tuned to Eb4 on 35", it worked very well and lasted much longer than the SIT .007, it had a really big sound, sounded more like a .010 to me. However they do require careful setup, you will receive detailed instructions from O4P on how to tune up. I recommend buying a few strings because you will probably break some learning how to setup. Perhaps a good idea to try some out on another bass before committing to the 13?


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## Prometeus (Jan 14, 2013)

But they need months to deliver strings while I only need a couple of weeks to build the beast! 
What scale do you think would allow me to use the 007" without worries? A 29"? I could go down to 34"-29".
I'm considering these specs: Zebrawood neck, Wengé or Bubinga fingerboard, Wengé toneblock, Zebrawood top and back with semi-hollow wings, one ceramic low Z humbucker, black hardware. Pretty simple. Oh, and piezos into the body with on/off switch. 34"-29" with the fifth fret straight. Spacing at bridge 16mm, 11cm wide nut. Sounds nice.


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## Winspear (Jan 15, 2013)

A normal 007 will reach A on 25.5" - make that F# on 30", G on 28.625"


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## Prometeus (Jan 15, 2013)

25.5" is the scale of a strat.  - hoped to go for something slightly bigger, expecially to avoid the frets to be too angled. 
Can't go under 34" for the low string or the G# will be too soft... and can't go over 26" for the Ab for the highest string or it will break. I feel like Hamlet: 13 strings... to build or not to build, this is the question... I better go with the huge fan or take a nap and move forward? To sleep, to die... to tune (and it takes hours on a 12!) 
28" and Garry Goodman will probably be helpful with a thicker, stronger Ab. But of course making a bass without knowing if the high string can be tuned to the right pitch is crazy. And I AM crazy. 

http://garrygoodman.com/OLP 30.mov


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## knuckle_head (Jan 15, 2013)

Prometeus said:


> 25.5" is the scale of a strat.  - hoped to go for something slightly bigger, expecially to avoid the frets to be too angled.
> Can't go under 34" for the low string or the G# will be too soft... and can't go over 26" for the Ab for the highest string or it will break. I feel like Hamlet: 13 strings... to build or not to build, this is the question... I better go with the huge fan or take a nap and move forward? To sleep, to die... to tune (and it takes hours on a 12!)
> 28" and Garry Goodman will probably be helpful with a thicker, stronger Ab. But of course making a bass without knowing if the high string can be tuned to the right pitch is crazy. And I AM crazy.
> 
> http://garrygoodman.com/OLP 30.mov



You can compensate by having the angle at the bridge be more radical than those at the fretboard . . . though you might have to limit your fret count.


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## Prometeus (Jan 15, 2013)

I planned to move the straight fret from the usual 7th to the 5th. I only have to decide the shorter string, now... 28"?


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## ixlramp (Jan 15, 2013)

EtherealEntity said:


> A normal 007 will reach A on 25.5" - make that F# on 30", G on 28.625"


I think when EtherealEntity writes "normal .007" here he means "not O4P".

O4P strings can do A4 on 28.625", and Ab4 on 29" will have less tension than this so i would consider 29" practical. Across 13 strings you could get 6" of fan with only 1/2" of fanning per string, which is not extreme at all. I suggest perhaps 35" to 29"?

Anyway i'm no expert, i recommend emailing Garry, he had a 13 string in development at one point. If you tell him you're a luthier thinking of making a 13 string i think he might be interested in discussing it and helping you out. O4P strings are the only way to make a 13 possible, their plain strings are very special and a stronger, different type of steel to other brands.

Now you know why no-one's made a 13 yet


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## Prometeus (Jan 15, 2013)

LOL! 35"-29" and the player would always depend on O4Plus strings or 34"-28" and probably able to use the SIT 007"?


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## ixlramp (Jan 15, 2013)

I suspect the SIT .007 would need to be 25.5" to reach Ab 
Even with O4P strings tuning to Ab4 on 29" is fairly extreme, your customer would have to be happy to use fiddly delicate strings and set them up carefully. The shorter you can make that top scale the happier your customer will be.
Another possibility: tuning the top 6 like a guitar with a major third interval in there somewhere to lower the top 2 or 3 strings.

Here's a thread with lots of info on setting up high strings http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/162586-a4-beyond-thread.html
The guy who built Garry's new 12 string, Tom Drinkwater of Oakland Axe Factory, is on this forum Sevenstring.org - View Profile: Tom Drinkwater perhaps he could help you out.
The thread for Garry's 12 is here http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/extended-range-guitars/187082-oaklnd-axe-factory-29-12-string.html and here's the quote from Tom:
"Garry Goodmans 42 fret bamboo/koa 29" scale 12 string. That is actually still being developed. The guitar was created before the strings existed for it. Without the strings I couldn't make a nut or string guide so Garry got the guitar without that and worked on making strings for it. Now the strings are a go and we need to fabricate some sort of nut or guide. It has a zero fret but we made the guitar in such a way that there is almost no downward pressure on the strings from the zero fret to the tuners to eliminate some of the problems for the high strings."


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## ixlramp (Jan 15, 2013)

Hmm perhaps 34" to 28" would be a good idea... or maybe 35" to 28", this appeals to me because they are in ratio 5:4.
You could use the flat headstock of your design to your advantage, it seems from Tom's quote a good idea to have the hole in the top tuner post level with the nut, so that winding the string on downwards from the hole only creates a very small downforce at the nut. If there is a string tree the top string should not go under it. Perhaps the top string could have it's own individual string tree that could be lowered very slightly after the string is tuned up to pitch...?


Prometeus said:


> What scale do you think would allow me to use the 007" without worries?


If you wanted no worries you wouldn't be building a 13 string eheh


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## Prometeus (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanx for all the informations... I think at this point the best thing to do is making it 33"-27" and hope for the best! 
I've built several ERBs but never had these problems with the .007" string... Basically 'cause I've made 10s and 11s, both single and multiscale. I don't thin the string will need particular care... Some lube on the nut, a careful tuning without twisting and a good guitar tuner. But I might be wrong, of course. I'm waiting for the .254" to show up, I only need a couple of days to finish the 12 and I think I'm probably too much in rush for the 13. The fact I would have been the first builder to make it has made me blind and hasty. 
Garry Goodman instrument is really much different from standard basses... I could never live with a 12mm spacing.


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## Winspear (Jan 15, 2013)

Have no concern about the size of the fan. I play a 4.5" fan on a 9 string guitar which is 0.5625" increase per string with much smaller spacing than a bass, it's super comfortable!
I would go 35-28 without hesitation, but you'll still struggle to reach Ab without O4P strings, by about a semitone. 34-27 should do it no issue.


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## ixlramp (Jan 15, 2013)

34" to 27" sounds like a good idea to me 
27" is one fret added to 25.5", so you'll have a similar tension to A4 on a standard guitar scale, which is doable with O4P and sometimes reachable using other brands


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## Prometeus (Jan 16, 2013)

34"-27" - OK! 
I'll wait a few days before starting. I wanna try the G# string before. I could even not like how it works... who knows? And I need to sand/finish 4 instruments that have been sitting around for months. 

EDIT: I've just read that Scott Fernandez tunes a Circle K .007" to G# on a 34"!


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## ixlramp (Jan 16, 2013)

Dingwall 5 string basses have a fan of 37" to 34" which is 3/4" per string, that's an extreme fan but on a 13 string would result in 9" of fan ... probably too much but maybe 35" to 27" is worth considering?
Interesting ... Circle K don't do .007s, i remember Scott writing somewhere that he tuned a SIT .007 to F#4 on 35" ... well actually first he said G#4 and then corrected himself to F#4, still very impressive ... so yeah do experiment with that string it might just work.


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## Prometeus (Jan 16, 2013)

Unfortunately when I ordered from Circle K I only got the .254", couldn't imagine their thinnest string could work. Do you think Scott got confused again about the tuning of the higher string? Don't know. 
Anyway I've just finished a 4 strings I had lying around for months... Bubinga neck/fingerboard, Cherry wings, Neo humbucker. Sounds wicked, I just love it. I think I could use a similar combination for an ERB, it's so nice!


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## Durero (Feb 4, 2013)

EtherealEntity said:


> Have no concern about the size of the fan. I play a 4.5" fan on a 9 string guitar which is 0.5625" increase per string with much smaller spacing than a bass, it's super comfortable!
> I would go 35-28 without hesitation, but you'll still struggle to reach Ab without O4P strings, by about a semitone. 34-27 should do it no issue.



I can also vouch for this. Large fans are very comfortable to play. 

I play a 36"-32" 7-string guitar. I've also tried a 30"-25" 8-string guitar and a 32"-27" 7-string. All are very comfortable and are leading me to want more extreme fans than those.


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## Prometeus (Feb 4, 2013)

My experience with a 4" fan wasn't perfect but I guess the problem was the position of the "straight" fret... the first one on the lowest string wasn't easy to reach.


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## ixlramp (Feb 4, 2013)

The most extreme fan i've seen was this 11 string Wishbass 35" to 25.75". You can see how the lowest 3 saddles seem incorrectly positioned for the fan, although the owner insisted that it does intonate, but i'm still skeptical.


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## Prometeus (Feb 5, 2013)

The body isn't long enough to place the low strings' saddles correctly... but this is only one of the issues! 
Anyway it looks like a few luthiers tried to build a 13 but stopped working on it for some reason... I could find out why in the worst way 

EDIT: I've heard there's some working 13 strings out there, I'm trying to find out who made it.


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## Prometeus (Feb 7, 2013)

Unfortunately there's still no trace of the big string 
The postal service sucks. Anyway, I've been working on an extraordinary pickups system so didn't invest time in the 12 (it's almost ready, only needs the string, fret dressing and sanding).

A few peoples asked if I was still going to build the 13 I've been planning for about 3 weeks... well, I don't know, I could make it in a week but my actual priority goes to the pickups. I'm going to get a patent for them while the 13 is something I can always build... don't know.

EDIT: the string is here. Oh god, it's really monsterous. Didn't have time to set the bass perfectly but tomorrow will try to play it on my 1x10" equipped with the Eminence BP102... should be good enough.


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## Kroaton (Feb 28, 2013)

Even though I'm usually a proponent of extended range instruments and it really is a jaw-droppingly great looking bass , I don't see why anyone out there would want to tune that insanely low.
The fundamental frequency of the last string is 12.95hz.
Inaudible to the human ear and way below what 99% of the consumer audio systems/bass rigs out there can put out even at the 2nd harmonic.

The Bag End Infra Sub is one of the few comercially viable bass subs able to reproduce the low string properly (going down to 8hz +-3db - so no FFR) and even then you would only feel it resonating inside of your thoracic cavity and not actually hear it.
You will most likely hear everything above the second (25.9hz) or third harmonic (38hz) on whatever it is that you or your customer will playing this through.

The volume also drops the higher up the harmonic chain you go.
So if you do not hear the fundamental/first harmonic and only start hearing the second or third one as in this case , your lowest string's first 3-5 frets will have lower volume output than the rest of the strings.
Basically you can only hear the low Ab(25.9hz) portion , the same as that of a drop tuned normal 5 string bass , probably darker sounding and with potentially different timbre and less volume.

Another thing that might be problematic is the actual intonation.
A string as thick as that starts having some really strange properties , namely , acting more like a tube/cylinder and not like an actual string.
Basically you lose the ability to ever intonate it and thus the higher up the frets you go the more skewed your tuning will be on that particular string.


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## Prometeus (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm aware of the problems such a big strings gives... but I really didn't want to deal with the .007" string, I hate it. If this one has problems connected to its thickness, the skinny one is even worse. It usually lacks volume, presence and snaps easily. So I'd choose the big one any day of the week 
I'll try to get decent audio clips of the best once I finished it but I'm working on a customer's 5er so gotta wait. 
The pickups have been made for extended range and I own a cab equipped with an Eminence BP102, a long-throw model. Sure, it won't go low enough for sure but it's certainly better than most commercial cabs... and to be honest, I don't think the beast will stay with me, as soon as I've put the picture on my page I've received two/three message of peoples interested in getting it.
I wouldn't go over 8 strings for myself.


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