# Mandatory Ticket Sales (by band) to play gig



## ScurrilousNerd (Jan 13, 2014)

What's up guys, thought I'd ask your opinion on a matter my friends in bands and my own bandmates have been pissed off about recently 

The main local promoter in our scene (not gonna name names, let's just say ontario, canada) for local and "smaller" bands has recently started to require any band playing a gig to sell 15 pre-sale tickets, or else you don't get the gig or have to pay out the tickets from pocket. AND HE DOESN'T EVEN PAY BANDS TO PLAY (not including large touring bands, e.g Counterparts). I know this is so he doesn't lose money, but it's ridiculous when he's presumably making tons of cash off each show. He even has banned my good friend's band from playing any of his shows, just because they talked a bit of shit about him and sold under 15 tickets for 3 shows in a row

Now personally, I think this is ....ing bullsh*t as HE is the promoter and should be getting people to come to his shows, not forcing bands to bring their own audiences. This pretty much makes it so it's the same 100 people going to shows consistently, most of which are in bands. 

anyway, sorry for the rant. what do you guys think about this? Is it commonplace in metal scenes? Thanks duders


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## iloki (Jan 13, 2014)

Its the same here in MI. My band has been gigging for just about a year, and we've only gotten paid for 2 gigs. One of which the pay came out of our ticket sales (and most of the time, we have to eat this and sell the tickets at a discount to get people to buy because other bands in the area have already discounted)

It's really annoying, and I honestly wish there was something we could do to lessen the burden on local bands and especially new bands. How do you sell tickets to fans when you don't have any? Generally, you get a few people, but otherwise you end up forking out for the unsold tickets and playing gigs can get expensive. 

There's only been one show so far that we've played that we got paid for that didn't require selling tickets, and that bar has since shutdown, unfortunately.


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## ScurrilousNerd (Jan 13, 2014)

Oh, and we're also signed to this guy's indie record label, which is great, but don't you think he'd be helping out young bands on his own label?


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## welsh_7stinger (Jan 13, 2014)

Personally i think this sort of practice is complete bullshit. It is the promoters job to sell tickets. NOT the bands job. There was one in south wales that did this practice and he screwed over a lot of bands.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Jan 13, 2014)

welsh_7stinger said:


> Personally i think this sort of practice is complete bullshit. It is the promoters job to sell tickets. NOT the bands job.



Exactly this. 

My old band had mandatory ticket sales a few times and only sold like 4 of the 20 since we were pretty small  luckily we were able to sell the rest of them the night of each show just outside the doors of the venue at a slight discount since the venue was charging 3 or 4 dollars more than what it would have cost us for the remaining tickets. Lucky, but still bullshit that we had to worry about it


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## noUser01 (Jan 13, 2014)

In short: it's complete and utter bullshit. It's the promoter's job to sell tickets and - believe it or not all your promoters our there - promote the show.


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## scottro202 (Jan 13, 2014)

Maybe because I've only been playing shows for a few years and have always done this, but I don't see the big deal in having to sell tickets to shows. If your band can't sell enough tickets to make it worth it for a promoter, then chances are a promoter's gonna have a hard time to sell tickets for your band too. Selling tickets and making money is the point of live shows, or else nobody would hold them (From a venue's perspective, anways). 

Now, in OP's case, I do think it's BS that he's not paying you for those tickets, because on the other side of the coin, you're working and making the venue money just as he is, he just doesn't have a guitar in his hands. I wouldn't even work with someone who wants me to sell tickets for free.


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## Hollowway (Jan 13, 2014)

Yeah, I'm not playing live now (I haven't in years), but I remember those days. But I'll tell you this: Break out of the victim mindset that this guy is being unfair, or screwing you over, and start looking at how you can take advantage of the opportunity. If there's a life lesson I've learned its that, generally speaking, if something is bad, that means there's an opportunity for you to come in and make it good. If this guy is carrying on in a way that is pissing off a lot of bands, just bypass him. You guys could get a bunch of bands together and go to the venues and say that you'll work directly with them and get him out of the deal. It's not super difficult to do, and, while it's more work, "promoting" yourself usually results in better results than paying these so-called professionals to do it. I bet it would be easier than you'd think (at least in my experience) and the threat alone might make the guy reconsider.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 14, 2014)

You "signed" with him and he's still doing that? I get the process if its a show with all unknown bands, cause it makes you build a fantasy, but if he's bringing touring acts to town, he needs to do the leg work. If the show sucks, make sure those touring bands know the promoter did jack to help them.


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## tripguitar (Jan 14, 2014)

ScurrilousNerd said:


> What's up guys, thought I'd ask your opinion on a matter my friends in bands and my own bandmates have been pissed off about recently
> 
> The main local promoter in our scene (not gonna name names, let's just say ontario, canada) for local and "smaller" bands has recently started to require any band playing a gig to sell 15 pre-sale tickets, or else you don't get the gig or have to pay out the tickets from pocket. AND HE DOESN'T EVEN PAY BANDS TO PLAY (not including large touring bands, e.g Counterparts). I know this is so he doesn't lose money, but it's ridiculous when he's presumably making tons of cash off each show. He even has banned my good friend's band from playing any of his shows, just because they talked a bit of shit about him and sold under 15 tickets for 3 shows in a row
> 
> ...


 
i'll agree that forcing local bands to sell a minimum number of tickets is crap. but it happens everywhere, and there are so many young, willing, and eager bands that i doubt this type of thing will ever go away.

from the promoter's perspective it works great - he makes you sell tickets which means when he goes to the club/venue he can say he got all these local bands that sold X amount of tickets and brought in X amount of dollars for the night. and he's consistent because hes constantly forcing bands to do it.

buuuuuut i think this is the wrong way around:


> HE is the promoter and should be getting people to come to his shows, not forcing bands to bring their own audiences.


 
no one goes to a show because of who the promoter is. yes he advertises the show and puts up flyers/spreads the word etc... but the reason these venues even have local bands open for touring acts, is to get as many people through the door as possible. so really, it IS the band that should be "bringing the audience." still... being forced to sell your own tickets sucks, and i agree its wrong. it should be an option instead of a mandate.


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## tripguitar (Jan 14, 2014)

also signing you and then treating you like any other local band is bullshit, find another promoter and/or label!


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 14, 2014)

I've told some of the smaller touring bands that we've played with when the promoter hasn't done shit. We played with some bands from Minnesota a few months back and the promoter put up one flyer, in the bar we were playing in about a week before the show. If not for FB, it would have been a total wash. I think there are a lot of promoter's who are just doing it for free beer and some cash. I don't like the idea of a local promoter who has a monopoly on a scene "signing" bands either. We had a guy in Madison for a few years that decided he was the "taste maker" for the city and if you didn't sign him up as your manager, you weren't getting any good slots, or any of his shows at all. Which sucked cause he was bring guys like DEP, ALOL, Genghis Tron, etc....


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## Char2000 (Jan 14, 2014)

Not sure if OP is serious.. Of course you have to sell tickets. Pretty common here in the US.


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## kevdes93 (Jan 14, 2014)

My friends band got screwed over by the areas only promoter. Makes the band members sell like 30 tickets at 10 bucks a pop or else they cant play the show at all. they have to pay to make up for the other tickets. A pretty good hardcore band called barrier came through and while his band was able to play with them, it was only after paying The promoter 600$ For the slot.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 14, 2014)

This pay-to-play stuff is so annoying...I don't even show up for the openers half the time anymore because they are usually a bunch of not-that-good-yet kids who happened to be able to afford the $250-$600 buy in. If your band is good, you should be able to get shows. If your band sucks, you shouldn't even be able to buy your way on to a show. We're in a similar situation right now, but we aren't required to sell tickets to play, just if we want to make any money.


I'm not trying to get down on anyone, but if you can barely play your instrument, you shouldn't be able to open for national touring acts, no matter how much money you have. Everybody starts somewhere, but it should probably be VFW halls and basements and friends parties.


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## scottro202 (Jan 14, 2014)

Paying to play is a completely different conversation than selling tickets. Now, I've been in situations where we didn't have money for all the tickets we SOLD (Say, we sold 30 tickets at 10 a pop, but somehow the band only has $250 in ticket money), but that was because you know, drummer gives a ticket to his mom, singer gives one to his girlfriend, guitarist gives tickets to his girlfriends and all of a sudden we don't have all the money for all of the tickets. But, even in that case, because we were selling them and we get money back for each sold, we still made money that night, cause we would get $3 for every ticket we sold. We still made $40 even though we "lost money." 

I haven't even been in a situation where I've been asked to pay to play. Played plenty of free shows, sold a lot of presale tickets, but never paid to play. And if a promoter asked me to pay to play, honestly I'd be a little offended. Then again maybe I'm not good enough to even be asked to pay to play  I don't see a situation where you're paying to be on a stage and you're going to actually reap any benefits for it. A stroke to the ego, maybe a stroke to your wang if you're lucky, but other than that.... why bother?


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 14, 2014)

The Rave, one of the biggest venues for moderately well-known acts in my state, charges anywhere from $300-$500 for bands to open for nationals. They make the band buy their presale tickets up front, so the venue and promoter make their money they need for guarantees before one actual ticket is sold. This place will sometimes have like 7-8 bands opening shows on the smaller bar stages...so these guys are paying out the wazoo for a chance to play on a tiny little stage about 100 feet from the "real stage" about two and half hours before any of the drawing bands are playing...sounds like money well spent to me!


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## WhiteWalls (Jan 14, 2014)

It's a sad situation but the problem is that there are way too many bands compared to the number of people who go watch them.
This makes it so the average band will almost never generate a profit for the promoter, so he has to take other guarantees to be able to do his job, by selling tickets to the band, to eliminate the risk of losing money if no one shows up.

I was pretty enraged at first but I think this is the right way to go, because the ONLY alternative right now is straight cash pay to play. At least by selling tickets to the band you will bring more people and the band will actually work to grow a fanbase, rather than sitting on its ass on Facebook waiting for something to magically happen (I hope this is not your case but believe me, it's very common)

If you want to open for a good band that is on tour in town, 90% of the time it's hundreds of euros of cash pay to play.
(this is based on my country of course, it may be different in others!)


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## Riffer Madness (Jan 14, 2014)

Sounds like bs to force a band to buy tickets just so they can then work for free while someone else's getting paid.

I can see how buying into a certain gig might be beneficial if a popular band sees your set, or has a fanbase who would like your music though...


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## scottro202 (Jan 14, 2014)

Forcing the band to BUY the tickets up front indeed is a load of bull. What's fair is a scenario where it's like:

Venue gives Band 100 tickets. Band sells all 100 tickets, at $10 a pop. Band has $1000 in gross revenue from ticket sales. Day of show, band takes $1000 to venue, gives them that gross revenue. And for the 100 tickets gone, band gets $300 back for the $100 tickets sold. That's basically a door split of 7/3 venue/band, but it's all done before the show. That's how most of the venues I've played around here do it and it's worked well for me as a musician, and I haven't gotten complaints from anybody so I guess it works for them too  That's exactly how Atlanta's big "alternative music venue" (for lack of better term), the Masquerade deals with locals.

But when booking a show a band should never have to straight-up right a check to a venue. That's stupid. One venue (I won't name) that most bands in the area avoid playing even says that almost exactly on their website


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## robare99 (Jan 16, 2014)

I know when I put on all ages shows, there really wasn't any money to be made. After the $400 for the hall, the $60 for rental gear including two 6 hour round trips to pick up and drop off rental gear, and giving 5 bands $100 each there wasn't a lot left over. I always wished I could give the bands more, but I had to at least break even. After that, I split everything evenly between the bands. 

I never made them sell tickets though. 

Now I don't bother, I just provide sound for a few bars and let then deal with the details. Now I actually make money for every gig, and I leave the details (booking, accommodation, payment etc.) to the bars. I come in, do sound, and go home.

Works for me.


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## morethan6 (Jan 16, 2014)

I agree with it being crap in principle, but in reality isn't it just a way of ensuring bands that can't even bring 15 people(!) to a show themselves don't play there? If it's a great venue with a good system etc and a popular place it makes sense.

I mean 50 pre-sales is asking a lot but it's pretty standard for London. 15 minimum doesn't sound like a huge ask...


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## robare99 (Jan 16, 2014)

15 doesn't sound unreasonable. A 5 piece band has to sell 3 tickets each. Show a little hustle. At least the promoter has an idea of the minimum amount of people to expect. I trust the bands get some money from that...


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## ScurrilousNerd (Jan 16, 2014)

After talking to said promoter a bit about things, he's agreed to this deal:

-still have to sell the mandatory 15 tickets
-if you sell more than 15 tickets, you keep the cash for anything past 15

and he has extended this deal to all his "label" bands, huzzah! 

(at least there is actually possibility of getting paid now)


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## leonardo7 (Jan 16, 2014)

ScurrilousNerd said:


> What's up guys, thought I'd ask your opinion on a matter my friends in bands and my own bandmates have been pissed off about recently
> 
> The main local promoter in our scene (not gonna name names, let's just say ontario, canada) for local and "smaller" bands has recently started to require any band playing a gig to sell 15 pre-sale tickets, or else you don't get the gig or have to pay out the tickets from pocket. AND HE DOESN'T EVEN PAY BANDS TO PLAY (not including large touring bands, e.g Counterparts). I know this is so he doesn't lose money, but it's ridiculous when he's presumably making tons of cash off each show. He even has banned my good friend's band from playing any of his shows, just because they talked a bit of shit about him and sold under 15 tickets for 3 shows in a row
> 
> ...



Yes its messed up but 15 tix isnt that many. 

Personally I cant stand to be that guy asking my friends to pay me up front to buy a tix to see my band play. I wont do it ever again. Its just not my style and I hate to come across as that desperate guy trying to sell tix to see my band play live. Its the promoters job to get people to the show, not the bands. I HATE promoters who expect bands to do the promoting. That guy sounds like a complete asshole! Bands shouldn't have to do any promoting at all! Its the promoters job. Too many young bands are being taken advantage of by slick promoters. Its just not right!

Who needs to purchase up front a tix to see a local band play at a venue that will not sell out anyways? I sure as hell NEVER NEVER NEVER buy tix to see a band unless I have reason to believe that the show will sell out and I wont get in. Im completely against it and I find it rather annoying when bands are trying to sell me a tix or when I have to read on facebook "hey Ive got presale tix for my bands show in three weeks". Its a sign that said band is totally doing it the wrong way and obviously dealing with a promoter who isnt promoting. 

If its a big show, and your desperate to play and get to a new audience then do it I suppose. Its just not my style and like I said, its never been the bands job to promote if you have a promoter. Just sayin


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## Seanthesheep (Jan 16, 2014)

ScurrilousNerd said:


> What's up guys, thought I'd ask your opinion on a matter my friends in bands and my own bandmates have been pissed off about recently
> 
> The main local promoter in our scene (not gonna name names, let's just say ontario, canada) for local and "smaller" bands has recently started to require any band playing a gig to sell 15 pre-sale tickets, or else you don't get the gig or have to pay out the tickets from pocket. AND HE DOESN'T EVEN PAY BANDS TO PLAY (not including large touring bands, e.g Counterparts). I know this is so he doesn't lose money, but it's ridiculous when he's presumably making tons of cash off each show. He even has banned my good friend's band from playing any of his shows, just because they talked a bit of shit about him and sold under 15 tickets for 3 shows in a row
> 
> ...



Its oretty annoying but from what Ive seen its pretty common in our area untill larger companies know and trust you as a band and give you good shows without these conditions. Im pretty sure I know who youre talking about so if you want to talk about it via PM im down but honestly the best advice I have is tough it out and try to make good connections with some of the bigger promoters.



ScurrilousNerd said:


> After talking to said promoter a bit about things, he's agreed to this deal:
> 
> -still have to sell the mandatory 15 tickets
> -if you sell more than 15 tickets, you keep the cash for anything past 15
> ...



Yepp, Im almost positive I know who you're dealing with. I've done many shows on that deal


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## spadz93 (Jan 17, 2014)

We always have to sell tickets, it's unfortunate but that's the process that the local scenes have turned into, and there's really no choice. At least the promoters around me dont make you fork over the difference, they just ask for the unsold tickets. they DO make you fork over for any missing unsold tickets though


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## sage (Jan 17, 2014)

I am used to seeing this sort of racket. I don't like it one bit and here's why: When the promoter is under the impression that all he has to do to get 60 people in a room so the bar manager doesn't tell him to fcuk off and get a real job is sucker 4 bands into selling 15 tickets each, all he does is just that. There is no actual promotion happening. There are no posters, no handbills, no newspaper ads, very little facebook presence (if any)... Nothing. Duder goes from promoter to booking agent really quickly. I don't need a booking agent. I can call a bar like nobody's business.

I don't particularly like pre-selling tickets. I am an entertainer, not a ticket agent. I'll happily tell anyone within earshot that I'm playing a show, but selling them a ticket just feels kinda greasy.


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## SandyRavage (Jan 17, 2014)

Just to throw it out there but most of the bands that are in a pay to play situation don't have the type of draw to support the show. These promotors aren't crooks, when you start adding up venue costs, paying the sound guy, paying security, paying any touring or headlining band the profit is fairly minimal and a necessary evil. Once you become big enough or good enough locally to pull a consistent draw you can stop paying to play.

No use complaining about it most of that cash goes to touring bands guarantees, and shows the promoter is losing money on anyways.

Try putting on a show yourself with just locals and see how quickly those costs add up. Book a touring band and see what happens there.

Best of luck but write better songs, play more shows, and get more fans who want to come out who aren't members of your immediate social group or family and then you too can get a paid gig.

Option 2 would be casino cover bands. From what I hear those guys make stupid money


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## Bodes (Jan 17, 2014)

If the promoter is "promoting" the show properly, i.e. posters, ads in local music mag, facebook, etc., I don't see it as being a bad thing to ask bands to sell pre-sale so that the promoter does not have any out-of-pocket expenses.

If they do nothing to promote the gig, than I would swiftly tell them where to stick their pre-sale tickets.

I have only ever been asked once to sell pre-sale tickets for my band. Once we reminded them we were from interstate, they said not to worry about the pre-sales.

In Melbourne, Australia, there are very few promoters for the scene. As a band you ring venues, ask about their policies (usually $10 tickets at door, 4 bands, $2 to each band, $2 to venue, and venue takes all bar sales, sometimes bands split all money off door and set own prices) Bands do most/all of the promotion themselves, however most venues have a 1/4 page ad in the local music mag showcasing the bands for the whole week, promote on their facebook page and posters in/outside the venue for 2-3 weeks before the show.


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## robare99 (Jan 18, 2014)

I also remember that my kids bands "manager" wanted to put on a show, because he figured I was making all this money. I let him do the next one and have him a good deal on the sound. Again, he didn't make any money.

I told him that's how it would go. 

Years later, a kid from a band wanted to put on an all ages show. I suggested against it, as it just wasn't a moneymaker. Not even a break even kinda thing. But they wanted to anyway. I have him a deal on the sound & lights. Not a pretty big turnout, not a lot of money to cover expenses. 

It's a tough go.


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## jrstinkfish (Jan 18, 2014)

Wait, local bands are relying on a "promoter" for local shows? Book your own shows, promote it yourself, keep the cash. Unless you're dealing in bands with a decent guarantee that you don't want to be on the hook for, I see no reason to ever deal with a promoter for a local show.

If I had an active band, I could shoot out a couple of emails and have a show booked on the next available date within a few hours, with the bands keeping the net proceeds for themselves (after paying the club and sound guy, when applicable). Build a following, make some contacts, book your own shows, profit.


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## Thanatopsis (Jan 18, 2014)

That's just ....ing wrong. No band should be charged to play. Not getting paid is one thing(our band played our second show last night, got nothing for the first, $60 between 4 of us for last night). But the fact that anyone would charge is completely ....ing wrong and pisses me off. Especially with the obscene profit margin they make on alcohol.


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## The Reverend (Jan 18, 2014)

I stopped playing shows before this shit showed up in Houston, or I would've shit a brick.

We had three main guys in Houston who handled metal, punk, and screamo from about 2005-2009. One worked at the "heart" of the scene, JavaJazz, which is were the big tours that weren't shit like Warped Tour and such would play, and the other was a guy who called his company Crash Tide. The other dude was a piece of shit in a piece of shit band who later began the pay to play thing. 

But yeah, how it worked is that you would record some songs, put them on Myspace or Purevolume, and if you were good OR had a lot of buzz Crash Tide would put you on at one of the smaller venues we used to have on the north side of Houston. You would play there for a while with other locals and smaller touring bands, and build up a fan base. Then you went to Javajazz, and Mike hooked it up with great tours that had similar bands. There was a really strong sense of community, and a lot of talent, too, in those days. You only stayed around if you were good, and the only money you lost was the normal stuff for being in a band, i.e. merch, gear, transportation, and Whataburger after the show. 

Then again, metal was in vogue at the time, so shows actually made bands money. I was in high school, playing in a metalcore band that was pulling in $350 a month for two shows. After you brought 15 fans (who you didn't have to sell tickets to) the venue would cut you in on the tickets you sold at the door. Shit, we didn't even know what to spend that money on, since we were playing with basic ass gear and printed cheap ass shirts. 

I feel bad for you guys who didn't know that it used to be about fostering bands with promise, instead of bands who keep reselling tickets to their friends to play shows. I'm still friends with Andre, the guy behind Crash Tide, because he did such a favor for us. We did him a favor too, since he made money from ticket sales, but still. How are bands nowadays supposed to even develop a following if you have to pay to play?


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## exarchangel (Jan 19, 2014)

HEY FELLOW CANADIAN ONTARIAN HOMESLICER- add me on facebook!! you and whoever! https://www.facebook.com/iamthedark


ON the note of mandatory ticket sales, it's a pretty bitchin' way for promoters to work. On one hand, people do come out to see the band, not the promoter....in fact in 99% of cases, nobody knows who the .... the promoter even is.....

NOW- you're signed to an indie label? Under him? Thats fantastic, congrats on getting some recognition in your locale, but at the same time, an indie label doesnt mean a whole lot.....

All promoters, even those for larger shows, want you to be able to sell tickets and get people in the door (although at bigger shows the promoter really does the work, because your band is already somewhat known and they don't really need that band to present themselves due to them being unknown by the peoples of the world. (or that venue/city).


The other deal is, when you're a newer band, nobody knows who the hell you are, and the only people who are gonna come see you are your friends, and who do you think is best to sell to them? (probably the band)...... Assuming it's a 5 piece, you all have at least 3 friends right?



Idk what to tell you man, unless you're headlining or the touring band, you'll almost ALWAYS be told to sell X number of tickets, I still get that all the time, but have relatively no trouble at all selling the 20 or so tickets to people.... Other venues in other cities wont demand that of you, so I don't really know what to tell you man.... Thats how the low level bar/venue scene in Canada seems to work, at least in the 5 years I've been doing it.....









BUT ADD ME ON FACEBOOK!!!!

https://www.facebook.com/iamthedark


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## 7stg (Jan 19, 2014)

As some have said a split with the house for presale tickets is cool but paying to play is not something I would go for. At least do they let you sell merchandise?

Realistically, unless it's a major band I don't think there is any money in playing gigs. Just check out this story.
Aeon666.com » Blog Archive » Daniel Dlimi quits Aeon


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## larry (Jan 19, 2014)

pay to play is pretty common here and as others have said, I also don't agree with it. if I read the op correctly, the promoter is enforcing pay to play for an opening slot with a touring/national act? 

imo, the money from pay to play pales in comparison to what the headliner will draw in the first place. why bother harassing locals? if I were a promoter concerned with money, I'd be looking for the most established local act that fits the bill. then help any fresh talent by offering them the very first slot. national, established local, kick-ass n00bs.

fortunately for us, pay to play wasn't as bad back in the day. in fact we only had to do it for a botb circuit. otherwise, club promoters/owners would book as described above and let us play FOR FREE. we could make money running merch if we had it, penalty free. simply put, pay-to-play is sleazy.


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## Journey (Jan 19, 2014)

Where I'm at they don't make you do pay to play stuff. But if your doing all ages events then you have to pay to rent the place for the night. Which pays for the security, sound guy and stuff like that.

Paying to play is not worth it unless the promotor packs the venue. If your paying to play and all the people that are there are the bands and there girlfriends then he's making all the money from you, your friends, your family, and from the venue. He's taking all the money that you deserve. If you put effort into it I'm sure you would be able to book your own show. Set the price at the door and work the finances out with the owner. If your only bringing in your friends then you should at least get there money. I'm sure your friends and family would prefer that as well since they are attending the concert to support you not pay for a slack ass sleezeball promotor.


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## JohnIce (Jan 19, 2014)

I think part of the problem is bands confuse playing music with being in the music business. To me it makes sense that if you want to be in _any_ business, you need to respect the customer (the listener) and start being realistic about what your band is worth to them. It's a team effort between you and the promoter, club owner etc., and to be included in the team you kinda have to take on a responsibility to satisfy the customer. If you don't want to do that, or know how to do that, then why not go back to just playing music for your own enjoyment?  Expecting people to pay for your rock star dreams and get nothing in return is just a dick mindset. How is the bartender gonna feed his kids? Musicians are not victims here, they just expect too much of people around them.

If you can't sell 15 tickets, think about WHY you can't sell tickets instead. There's probably 12,337 different reasons. "The promotor not promoting" is not a reason, it's blame and it doesn't help you. What can you get better at in order to make people like you? 99.9999% of the time it's songwriting, showmanship and time efficiency. That's it.

I'm probably sounding a little harsch here, and I get that there are shady promoters and whatnot but I've wasted so much time blaming others for getting in the way of me becoming a rock star, when the sad truth is really that _nothing_ about your career is anyone else's responsibility. Period. There's so much good music out there that they don't need me, so it's up to me to contribute something just as good, or leave everyone alone.


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## iRaiseTheDead (Jan 19, 2014)

Selling tickets is bad but we recently booked a show where we have to sell 50 tickets to a show in a state that we don't even live in.
I think THAT is BS


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## WhiteWalls (Jan 19, 2014)

Yes, if you have to move out of town not only you should not be asked to sell tickets, but you also should get some cash for the travel expenses. Selling 50 tickets in another state is completely ridiculous.

Anyway, I have to agree with JohnIce; the supply outweighs the demand SO MUCH that it's simply impossible to even think about making money unless your band can generate a very good and consistent turnout, especially in other cities.
Let's say my band brings 50 people (which is a ridiculous amount for any local concert here) at 5&#8364; tickets, that's a total of 250&#8364;. Even if everyone spends 5&#8364; in drinks, that's 500&#8364; gross income, which could be JUST enough to cover the following costs:
- bar costs
- license/taxes
- venue costs
- promoter
- food for the bands
- sound engineers
- other workers

so you can see we're a long way from even thinking about cachets, and the promoter has A LOT to lose if nobody shows up. I don't agree with the system in general, but it would be a pure utopia otherwise.

EDIT: about the "local bands paying to open for touring bands": it's sad how much of an ego boost is to somebody to say "I opened for <insert medium-sized band>". It could be viewed as an investment, but from a financial point of view there's almost no way that paying hundreds of dollars to play at dinner time in front of nobody is a good marketing strategy for your band. Local bands here do it simply because they have the money and they want to brag about it.


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## abandonist (Jan 19, 2014)

If you can't draw people to a venue then why should you get paid?

"Well how do we get a following if they won't let us play?"

House shows, DIY shit, and hop-ons.


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## Necris (Jan 19, 2014)

ScurrilousNerd said:


> The main local promoter in our scene (not gonna name names, let's just say ontario, canada) for local and "smaller" bands has recently started to require any band playing a gig to sell 15 pre-sale tickets, or else you don't get the gig or have to pay out the tickets from pocket. AND HE DOESN'T EVEN PAY BANDS TO PLAY (not including large touring bands, e.g Counterparts). I know this is so he doesn't lose money, but it's ridiculous when he's presumably making tons of cash off each show. *He even has banned my good friend's band from playing any of his shows, just because they talked a bit of shit about him and sold under 15 tickets for 3 shows in a row*



I'd have done the exact same thing to your friends band. 
A good promoter isn't going to go through the trouble of setting up a show just to break even; much less lose money. 

I'd probably have banned them after the second show they failed to draw people to; and if he banned them for talking shit about him, tough, they're the ones who burned that bridge. 

Anyway, at _best_ your friends band has to be absolute shit at networking and/or supremely lazy if, with the power of the internet at their fingertips, they can't draw at least 15 people to a single show; and at worst their music must be so bad that no-one wants to see them. 

Both of those possible scenarios are ones in which the band is not worth the promoters time, not worth the monetary risk and certainly not worth paying.

The same applies to your band.

Start finding contacts in other local bands, maybe even make friends with said bands, the more contacts/friends you have the better, promote their shows in return for them promoting yours, as long as both bands hold up their end of the bargain everyone wins. Both your band and theirs reach a wider group of people and it will become easier to draw a larger crowd with less effort.


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## neoclassical (Jan 19, 2014)

welsh_7stinger said:


> Personally i think this sort of practice is complete bullshit. It is the promoters job to sell tickets. NOT the bands job. There was one in south wales that did this practice and he screwed over a lot of bands.



Agree, total BS.


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## abandonist (Jan 20, 2014)

Not that I'm down with the pre-sale ticket thing per se, but what would those of you so strongly against it propose instead?


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 20, 2014)

Promoters working to make money, is what I suggest. The problem here in our area is that there isn't a huge local scene for metal, but there are bands and promoters who insist on doing shows that they know are a hard draw in the area instead of trying to book bands where people will come see them, they book bands where its hard to find a crowd, book a bunch of locals, then sit back and wait to see what the locals can draw. Which, is usually the same rotating group of about 25-40 people out of the hundred or so that go to shows regularly. Then the bands look bad to touring acts, cause they're is a 1/3 full show, the promoter passes the blame to the bands, then does the same shit the next time. There are more metal bands than metal fans around here, and most local promoters aren't looking much beyond the city limits for advertising and venues when they would do better to get these bands into Milwaukee, Chicago, Rockford, even up north and actually promote the shows and have people show up.


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## larry (Jan 20, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Not that I'm down with the pre-sale ticket thing per se, but what would those of you so strongly against it propose instead?



I propose that local venue promoters/owners see the forest for the trees. 

bands that are starting out, aren't going to draw very much in the first place. better to hold auditions for those interested in playing at my establishment and decide if they're good enough to book with incoming nationals. more people will come to my club to see bands play if the overall show is great. 

I need bands to fill opening slots for some headlining dates and would rather NOT pay them. so why not apply a little quid pro quo and allow the most appropriate local to open for a given headliner? in this case, I get to fill time with a decent opener and the opener gets exposure. 

somewhere along the line, promoters got greedy and lost sight of how their impact on the overall community will influence business. the quick buck they might get from forcing locals to sell tickets likely pales in comparison to the money they'd make from a thriving music community. I say enforce a little friendly competition. if you want to open for any of the headliners coming through my venue, all you have to do is audition and be extremely good at what you claim to do.

for the record, the number of tickets a local band can sell is just a direct reflection of their ability to network, which doesn't necessarily mean they can put on a kick-ass show. I've seen this.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 20, 2014)

larry said:


> somewhere along the line, promoters got greedy and lost sight of how their impact on the overall community will influence business. the quick buck they might get from forcing locals to sell tickets likely pales in comparison to the money they'd make from a thriving music community. I say enforce a little friendly competition. if you want to open for any of the headliners coming through my venue, all you have to do is audition and be extremely good at what you claim to do.
> 
> for the record, the number of tickets a local band can sell is just a direct reflection of their ability to network, which doesn't necessarily mean they can put on a kick-ass show. I've seen this.


 
There is no music community outside of the internet around here.


Its even harder in a mid-sized city where all of the bands have the same network...you put four locals opening for two touring acts and those four bands are gonna advertise to the same 60-100 people online, and hit the same spots for physical promotion....there's no diversity in attracting an audience that way, and as far as I can tell, most people aren't willing to drive more than 30 minutes to see a local band if they don't know the headliners.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Jan 20, 2014)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I'm not playing live now (I haven't in years), but I remember those days. But I'll tell you this: Break out of the victim mindset that this guy is being unfair, or screwing you over, and start looking at how you can take advantage of the opportunity. If there's a life lesson I've learned its that, generally speaking, if something is bad, that means there's an opportunity for you to come in and make it good. If this guy is carrying on in a way that is pissing off a lot of bands, just bypass him. You guys could get a bunch of bands together and go to the venues and say that you'll work directly with them and get him out of the deal. It's not super difficult to do, and, while it's more work, "promoting" yourself usually results in better results than paying these so-called professionals to do it. I bet it would be easier than you'd think (at least in my experience) and the threat alone might make the guy reconsider.



This 

It's exactly how Bay Area musicians ran "pay to play" out of the Bay Area.

John Nady (Nady Wireless Systems) in the late 80's/early 90's owned 3 clubs in the Bay Area; The Stone in S.F., The Omni in Oakland, and The Cabaret in San Jose. They were all pay to play venues. Many of these bands were just breaking into the club scene. They'd get sold some BS about the prestige of playing these clubs, but since they were exposing themselves to a newer audience, they didn't have as much draw. At the end of the night when they couldn't come up with the cash, Nady and his mob start taking band gear as collateral (totally illegal, but folks caved) and bands, many good ones, broke up as they no longer had the gear to gig with. 

Eventually, it got to the point that no bands would even go to the club, not to perform, not to see other bands, even signed ones. Along with that, they all stopped using Nady gear. Eventually it got to Nady's pocket book to the point that he ended up closing all three clubs, and to this day, very few, if any musicians who endured that era will ever touch a Nady product again.


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## Double A (Jan 20, 2014)

Char2000 said:


> Not sure if OP is serious.. Of course you have to sell tickets. Pretty common here in the US.


It is a pretty common scam you mean. I can see in populated areas that this could work as there are many bands fighting for exposure but this shit has cropped up in rural areas and states and all it is is a scam for them to get free money. Yeah, most everyone has to deal with it but if enough bands in a scene tell a promoter to .... off or start to do DIY then usually a shitty promoter moves onto another poor scene to leach off of.


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## larry (Jan 20, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> There is no music community outside of the internet around here.



in a small community where there's no interest in live entertainment, I'd attempt to build interest by investing in high profile nationals or just flat out drop the idea and open a Chilli's since people would rather have some place cozy aside from home to get drunk. you have to be savvy and know your market. pay to play certainly won't improve anything here.  



GunpointMetal said:


> Its even harder in a mid-sized city where all of the bands have the same network...you put four locals opening for two touring acts and those four bands are gonna advertise to the same 60-100 people online, and hit the same spots for physical promotion....there's no diversity in attracting an audience that way, and as far as I can tell, most people aren't willing to drive more than 30 minutes to see a local band if they don't know the headliners.



as a metal band you have to take initiative in your best interests, correct? this might require driving farther out to get better exposure. it's been done. yeah that is pretty unfortunate that your local fans won't get to see you much, but to gain any traction you've got to spread out. if y'all are stuck there, then you've got to be creative in how you find your way out. which might mean touring on your own dime. this is certainly feasible if everyone is committed and able to focus on what's best for the whole. easier said than done in most cases, but when you do have it hold on tight!

geography and demographics aside, the same model can be applied here. more so, since it's such a small area. what can I expect to gain from making those same four bands pre-sell tickets? if they consistently reach the same 60-100 people, I will inevitably get their 'ticket' money at the door when those people show up. moreover, I also retain whatever those folks would spend on drinks, food etc... again, as an owner I'm responsible for generating business.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 20, 2014)

You can't create fans from nowhere...there are more musicians than listeners right now. We do better advertising on Facebook and playing in another city than we do doing physical and online advertising and playing in our hometown....That's why rarely play here unless nothing else is going on...we do better in the rinky-dink outlying towns.


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## abandonist (Jan 20, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> Promoters working to make money, is what I suggest. The problem here in our area is that there isn't a huge local scene for metal, but there are bands and promoters who insist on doing shows that they know are a hard draw in the area instead of trying to book bands where people will come see them, they book bands where its hard to find a crowd, book a bunch of locals, then sit back and wait to see what the locals can draw. Which, is usually the same rotating group of about 25-40 people out of the hundred or so that go to shows regularly. Then the bands look bad to touring acts, cause they're is a 1/3 full show, the promoter passes the blame to the bands, then does the same shit the next time. There are more metal bands than metal fans around here, and most local promoters aren't looking much beyond the city limits for advertising and venues when they would do better to get these bands into Milwaukee, Chicago, Rockford, even up north and actually promote the shows and have people show up.




What would you have the promoter do? Unknown bands don't draw people in to see shows regardless of how much advertizing is done. I'm not going out to a club on a Saturday, and pay $15 at the door, just on the off chance a local metal band is good. Most national music is bad. Most local bands are even worse. Just because someone decides to start a band doesn't mean they should be paid to play.


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## longfalcon (Jan 20, 2014)

abandonist said:


> Just because someone decides to start a band doesn't mean they should be paid to play.



As a member of a amateur local band I really don't want to believe this, but its sadly the truth.

We all need to realize that what ticket pre-sales are is a indirect way of buying your way on stage. it also demonstrates how your draw is to a promoter/venue with little to no risk on their part.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 20, 2014)

Then this "promoter" is effectively a booking agent and nothing else. There's nothing wrong with my band, metal just doesn't draw outside the metal community, which is mostly other bands, who have shows on weekends, too. If there are two shows within 50 miles, everybody will be at one or other, and its it not enough to make either seem full. In the past when our group has tried to bring bands in from out of town, we schedule it like 3 months ahead, get a good venue, talk to other bands/venues and let them know we're working on a metal show for X date, and then we can get plenty of time to promote, but most of these shows, the locals aren't even officially added until the last two weeks before the show, tickets aren't given out till 10-12 days prior, and most of the time, the only who knows there are out of towners coming before the locals are added is the promoter, and he hasn't done anything yet to let anyone know who is coming....


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## abandonist (Jan 20, 2014)

So its all the promoter's fault?

None of this is on you?

As someone who has worked at clubs and has a friend that is a booking dude for one now, I'd like to direct your attention to this article: http://www.metalsucks.net/2008/06/17/the-top-39-annoying-things-that-local-bands-do/

Do you really know how many calls/emails a club gets A DAY with bands begging to play? If you agree to play on a tuesday night and can't draw 25 of your own people without them lifting a finger then you're simply not worth the club's time.

I'm not saying this to be a dick, but it's the reality of the situation. You always hear about how terrible the club owners and promoters are and how everything is their fault. No one ever talks about this entitlement culture among players. "I'm a professional musician!" You're 19 and you don't draw. You're just another dude with a guitar. This is a business and there are bills to pay.


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## McKay (Jan 20, 2014)

If you want to get paid for a local show, book it yourself. There is literally nothing stopping you. If you want a cut, ask the promoter to do a run of tickets and ask for a percentage of every ticket you sell. If you get $1 for every ticket, you'll make your petrol money back if you can sell more than a handful.


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## robare99 (Jan 21, 2014)

McKay said:


> If you want to get paid for a local show, book it yourself. There is literally nothing stopping you. If you want a cut, ask the promoter to do a run of tickets and ask for a percentage of every ticket you sell. If you get $1 for every ticket, you'll make your petrol money back if you can sell more than a handful.



True enough. Book a hall, hire a sound guy, book some bands, and give it a go.


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## stevexc (Jan 21, 2014)

I don't see anything wrong with having to sell x number of tickets to play the show - assuming x is reasonable (15 is, in my opinion) and everything past x is profit. What my old band has been asked to do was sell tickets at whatever price we want, but $5 or $10 or something (I forget the actual number) went back to the house. We came ahead by about $200 that night, I think?

The only issue I take is the promoters (I'm looking at you, Supernova...) get the bands to sell tickets but keep 100% of the money. Especially BS when you only get a 20 minute set amidst 20 other bands.

Typically what I see though is the band will be given a number of tickets to sell, all the cash gets brought back, then every band gets a cut of tickets and door sales, sometimes bar sales. That usually works out alright, you get more money if you personally sell the tickets, but if you get people to just show up everyone benefits. As far as small shows go it's not a bad setup.

Personally I've only had to pay for one show, and it's one I set up myself - so it would make sense (to me) that the promoter would pay for the venue and then try to recoup through the bands?


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 21, 2014)

Promoter
CORRECT UNDERSTANDING: This is a person who actively works to promote a show. They promote by distributing flyers, plugging the show wherever they can and try to get as many people as possible to come to the show. If they have an out of town band booked on the show they take financial responsibility to ensure they get paid and are taken care of in whatever way they need. They also take charge in organizing the show and making sure all the bands know when they are scheduled to play and how the money works for getting paid.

If you organize a show and do none of this ^, you are only a booking agent and you do not deserve any more than the bar is willing to pay you to find bands. I don't have a huge problem with bands trying to sell tickets, but most often this idea is so the "promoter" can get everyone else to do his job. Or in the case of the Pay-To-Play places, a way to cover band's guarantees without having to worry about turnout.


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## The Reverend (Jan 21, 2014)

abandonist said:


> I'm not saying this to be a dick, but it's the reality of the situation. You always hear about how terrible the club owners and promoters are and how everything is their fault. No one ever talks about this entitlement culture among players. "I'm a professional musician!" You're 19 and you don't draw. You're just another dude with a guitar. This is a business and there are bills to pay.



I hear what you're saying, and I agree up to a point. I don't think it's the promoter's job to do 100% of the legwork, but I think they should do more than create a flyer (that they send bands to print and post everywhere) and a Facebook event page. 

Also, since capitalism is raising its ugly head, I think it's in the interest of everyone involved to do their best to create a thriving scene. When the venues and promoters are only concerned about making sure they make x amount of money a night, you open the door to rampant abuse like we've heard about in this thread, i.e. pre-sale tickets that the band sees no money from. I would almost look at venues and booking agents as curators, in a sense. Instead of deluging the scene with high school kids and their shit bands, because you know each one will draw a good number for their first few shows, help a truly talented band by putting them on shows likely to draw some exposure. 

My experience in Houston was like that. There were a few locals that had grown big enough that putting three of them in headlining spots was good enough to draw a great crowd. That's a result achieved by bands not playing every show they can, and booking agents putting them on tickets that will raise their local profile. 

TL;DR: Help the good bands help themselves, and everyone is a winner.


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## MoshJosh (Jan 21, 2014)

In my town this is pretty standard practice and honestly I totally understand why. The ratio of bands to potential venue goers is way off and many local band aren't ready to play shows and don't have their own gear but still want gigs. Seems like (at least in my area) being a promoter would kinda suck


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## MassNecrophagia (Jan 22, 2014)

I keep seeing this "15" popping up for ticket sales, and it makes my stomach churn. Granted, Phoenix is a very large, very populated area, but we're looking at 40-50 for opening slots, 50-100 for "local headliner" on national shows.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 22, 2014)

as in you have to sell 100 tickets to play? Man, I'm starting to think I should just quit....or become a booking agent pretending to be a promoter and makes bands do all the work!


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## scottro202 (Jan 22, 2014)

MassNecrophagia said:


> I keep seeing this "15" popping up for ticket sales, and it makes my stomach churn. Granted, Phoenix is a very large, very populated area, but we're looking at 40-50 for opening slots, 50-100 for "local headliner" on national shows.



That's about it for Atlanta, too. If you're any good anyways


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## imnotnollynollynolly (Jan 22, 2014)

OP, where in Ontario are you? At least you guys have something lol, there's literally nothing in Newmarket anymore in terms of local metal/hardcore/metalcore/anything like that shows. Having to sell a few tickets before is reasonable IMO, especially 15 which isn't that bad. What is BS is when you don't get any cut of that, which is usually how it works and is pretty stupid. Lot's of good points made in this thread.


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## WhiteWalls (Jan 22, 2014)

I forgot to mention in my earlier posts that when you buy tickets from a promoter to resell them, they SHOULD be discounted. It doesn't have to be a huge discount, but something like from 10 to 8 is reasonable, so that you can make a bit of profit to sort of make it worth the time.

Some years ago I was filling in in a band that was opening for Periphery, and the deal was 20 tickets at 15&#8364;, for which we paid 13&#8364; each. That is a deal I consider acceptable, because we easily sold them all and we made the gas money back.
Being asked to sell 100 tickets to open for a no-name headliner with guaranteed loss would seriously offend me and I would laugh in the promoter's face. And it's disheartening to see how many bands regularly accept those conditions over and over again.


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## ScurrilousNerd (Jan 24, 2014)

imnotnollynollynolly said:


> OP, where in Ontario are you? At least you guys have something lol, there's literally nothing in Newmarket anymore in terms of local metal/hardcore/metalcore/anything like that shows. Having to sell a few tickets before is reasonable IMO, especially 15 which isn't that bad. What is BS is when you don't get any cut of that, which is usually how it works and is pretty stupid. Lot's of good points made in this thread.



We're in the Ottawa area! 

And to the people saying 15 is reasonable, I agree but it can be frustrating when you're selling to the same people every time and playing with the same bands all the time and it turns into "we just came to one of your shows" or "we just played with you guys". 

Especially when we're selling to our age group (teenagers) who have little cash, and don't want to pay $15 to go to a show that they have to drive 30+ minutes to.


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## Alex Kenivel (Jan 24, 2014)

They suck the money out of our dreams. I've never sold a ticket or paid to play anywhere. I've hopped onto DIY tours with excellent turnouts. You just gotta meet the right ppl at the right time.


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## Blasphemer (Jan 25, 2014)

MassNecrophagia said:


> I keep seeing this "15" popping up for ticket sales, and it makes my stomach churn. Granted, Phoenix is a very large, very populated area, but we're looking at 40-50 for opening slots, 50-100 for "local headliner" on national shows.



Damn, that's brutal. I can't imagine selling 40-50 tickets for a show. But, at the same time, the population differences between Arizona and Maine are pretty vast, I would assume.

Selling 15 tickets in my area is even kind of tough, just due to how the scene is. There is a core group of people who go to shows, some of whom are in bands who may get asked to play the show. Having 5 different bands ask the same 30 kids to buy tickets from them all the time just isn't going to happen, and having your friends and other acquaintances come out to see you every other week or so just isn't going to happen, ether. 

The upside to this, though, is that in Maine, and even moreso in my neck of the woods (literally ), there has been a bit of a reworking of shows and bands playing. More DIY shows and venues have been popping up in what I would assume is a direct retaliation to the "pay to play" style clubs that used to be all there was around. Ticket sales area all at the door, or "donation only" since most of the bands are within an hour drive (which in Maine really isn't that far, considering I usually have to drive 25 minutes to get to the supermarket). When bands from extreme ends of the state play, they'll get paid, though. People who go to shows are actually invested in the scene, and seem to care about both the bands/music, and the people quite a bit.

It's kind of refreshing to be here and in a mostly DIY scene, but also frustrating for when you're looking to branch out of your area like my band is. Having a following in a state most people think is part of Canada doesn't mean squat when you're talking to venues/booking people in other areas.


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## youngthrasher9 (Jan 25, 2014)

I can see how some promoters aren't greedy weasels, but this pay to play crap doesn't really make sense.

A band paying to play is not likely to have a huge following in the first place, so why the hell does the promoter think the idea of pay to play is even feasible? It seems like if the promoter had an idea of how big the band in the scene was he would sweeten the deal for gigs for bands just starting out. Like giving drink discounts with each ticket to the gig sold (assuming it was a bar). 15 tickets isn't to unreasonable but I can understand some bands who aren't totally familiar with the audience not being able to sell more than a couple tickets. 

If the band can sell 50 tickets themselves, WTF do they need a promoter for? Seriously, they can announce a gig online, and put posters on local billboards. Forgive me if I'm mistaken, I've never actually played in a band (besides a church band a few times).

Just my .02


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## Albionic (Jan 26, 2014)

Am i right in thinking this pay to play or selling tickets deal is basically buying your way on to a bill with a national band? 

I like the idea of putting on and promoting your own shows perhaps get your friends who have bands and try to create your own scene. Try and talk some small local bars into doing a rock/metal night during the week on a night when they are not busy offer to play for free perhaps even don't charge an entrance fee. Even if a bar owner hates metal if you can bring in people who are spending money he will be happy as long as the bar isn't trashed.

This is the first rung of the ladder not playing support to a national band. Use the web to promote the hell out of your band hand out fliers. Do it yourself rather than expect some promoter top do it for you. If it becomes clear that you are able to draw a small crowd then the bigger places who have national bands play won't be able to ignore you.

You cannot build a reputation in one big show and losing cash every show is unsustainable long term. Swallow your pride play halls/small bars give metal fans something cheap to do on a night with nothing else on.


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## abandonist (Jan 26, 2014)

This is an excellent article.

7 Reasons Why No One


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## The Reverend (Jan 26, 2014)

abandonist said:


> This is an excellent article.
> 
> 7 Reasons Why No One



This is actually a really good article. I agree a lot with the two points about not playing too often and making your shows events. I get event invites from the same bands all too often, and I just completely ignore them now. If you had some kind of hook to get me to go, AND you don't play every other weekend, I might be interested enough to go. 

At the same time, though, I miss how going to shows was how we used to hang out.


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## robare99 (Jan 27, 2014)

As a local sound guy, normally lights & sound for a hall event would run you $1000. But I'd do it for $600, to help out the scene. But that's still a pretty good chunk of change. 

Gives you a nice playground though. The bad news is, it would take 40 tickets to cover the cost. Then there's the hall as well. That's before trying to pay any of the bands. 

No haze:











With haze, depending on the headroom:










I'll make ya look and sound good, but it's not free.


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## ke7mix (Jan 27, 2014)

There are two main venues that my band plays in Seattle, both of which give you presale tickets one is mandatory (50) one is optional (35) and both venues let you keep 3 dollars a ticket. I personally see no problem in this at all. If there are 5 bands on the bill and the 3 locals are bringing in 150+ people as well as the headliners thats nothing but good publicity for you. My 5 piece band works our A$$ off to sell all of the tickets for every show and there are few instinces where we have under sold. 
This can go for any town - If you can sell all of your pre-sales and have a reputation for it, you will get good shows. Im playing with SoulFly next week. 
Pre-sales can really help your band, and if you cant sell them, it is your own fault.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 27, 2014)

The thing that pisses me off about is the bands that sell the tickets all the time usually suck. Sorry if this is your band, but people shouldn't be given the opportunity to open for these big bands if you can barely tune your damn guitar. When I was 15/16 and still sucking at guitar, it was super easy for use to sell tickets to shit. 
We did a local show at a firehouse, rented sound, payed four bands $250 each (not including ourselves) and still made $400 at the end of the day, and we were fvcking terrible.
But now people actually have to be interested in the music you're making, which there just isn't a whole lot of around here, and everybody is in a goddamn band, so they're all out traveling or playing, too.
I agree with that article about Facebook, too, but people also ignore real flyers and nobody listens to the radio (at least not people who would come see us, for the most part), so how the fVck do you advertise well for shit.


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## WarMachine (Jan 27, 2014)

It all sucks. Been there several times and im not doing that shit anymore. I agree with 100% of what you guys said on here, primarily yes and no with the "if you suck, you should sell" mindset. That's not true, not by a long shot. You can kick all kinds of ass and still be screwed by 1) selling tickets,usually to a venue hours away that you KNOW people you sell to can't/won't make it and 2) because of the music style. Im not bashing anyone here or anywhere, but lets face it dudes, how many screamo/fill in the blank "core" bands are there? About as many, if not more, than there are guitarists on this forum lol. Believe it or not, people get tired of the same old shit. That's what music's about, variety, something different. I remember when i first started gigging hard i used to get so pissed because places would be empty. I'd be thinking, "The ....?! If i wasn't in a band right now i'd like to go see live shows!" But then i played shows....and more shows....and a few years worth. And in the end i realized why people stopped coming to them and i can't blame them for it...reason? Lack of variety. If people can't groove, relate/click and generally feel the song then its not getting it done. Period.


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## ScurrilousNerd (Jan 27, 2014)

robare99 said:


> As a local sound guy, normally lights & sound for a hall event would run you $1000. But I'd do it for $600, to help out the scene. But that's still a pretty good chunk of change.
> 
> Gives you a nice playground though. The bad news is, it would take 40 tickets to cover the cost. Then there's the hall as well. That's before trying to pay any of the bands.
> 
> ...



Oh man - if we got to play with a setup, I would understand the "promoter" worrying about covering costs. Our setup usually looks more like one guy from a band brings a 400 watt PA and two speakers and maybe two vocal mics. If we're extra lucky there's monitors and a bass drum mic!


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 27, 2014)

Yeah, especially for metal thats what its like for us...powered mixer, two 15's, and whatever mics the bands bring, or if we're really unlucky, the promotor hits us up (we are an instrumental band, btw) to the bring our rig for a PA, which is actually better than most bars around here (two 2x15s' 1000 watts mains/500 watts monitors, 8 XLR channels) but we usually get paid a little something if thats the case, cause who asks the band with no vocalist to bring the PA to a bar that doesn't need a PA unless you have a singer.


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## Dylanvoy (Mar 19, 2014)

its like that in certain venues here in NJ too it gets annoying sometimes but it motivates us if we sell 20 tix we get paid but if not we still play. but at some places its you sell 15 or no get out. and being a young local band with fans that cant drive to come to these shows sucks. especially when the venue is 30-40 minutes away from our town.


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## eyeswide (Mar 21, 2014)

I think people are getting confused with their own entitlement and the economic reality of the live music business. There are too many bands (supply) saturating the market, competing for a potentially declining (demand) number of fans that go to shows. There was also somewhere on here where a guy said he would never go out of his way to promote his band and sell tickets - his job is to play music and the promoter's job is to promote! So, there is this divide between the expectations of artists, promoters and the business environment they operate in.

I think the term "promoter" should not be used, because the vast majority of promoters aren't promoters, they are organizers. There's nothing wrong with this, but it's a communication issue people need to understand. The organizer arranges the bands, the venue and the sound. Without this stuff, a show cannot happen. You don't need fans coming to shows for a show to happen, but you do require them to make it economically viable.

So let's build a scenario: an organizer has lined up a bunch of new, young bands that don't have a draw. They have a bunch of money put into getting everything happen, and maybe they've tried a bit to raise awareness. The bands think it's up to the organizer to bring out people, because their only job is to play music. The show happens and no one turns up. The organizer now loses money, and maybe the bands do too. Everybody loses. The organizer doesn't want to put on more shows because they're losing money.

You can even change things up a bit here. Say the organizer did a ton of promotion, put up posters everywhere, facebook ads, and basically did everything you'd expect. Then, people still don't show up because no one's heard of these bands. Maybe the bands even lied to the organizer: "oh, we've got a great draw, we can easily get 50 people to show up for us. Either way, the organizer gets ....ed over.

So, many of you demonize them, but how is this fair for the organizer? I've seen this happen in my scene before. These guys love the scene, and want to contribute. They put on shows but end up losing money because they have no business savvy and are working with bands that don't have a draw, and don't care about bringing people out.

This is where paying to play and selling presale tickets comes in. You need to measure the opportunity cost of the marketing awareness and value generated by paying to play vs. not doing anything. If I was offered to open for Metallica for 100 nights at $1,000 a night, I would be walking out of my job, selling everything I have that isn't needed for a stage show, and going to a bank for the rest. Why? This is ....ing massive exposure, and you can be damn sure that your merch sales each night are going to end up above that $1,000 you paid for each gig.

Same thing with doing ticket presales. Can your band draw 100 people without presales? Can you prove this to the organizer? Then if you don't need to sell tickets ahead, don't. If the organizer won't budge, then you have the choice not to play the show.

tl;dr: Your band has no value. There are 1,000 bands like yours looking for the same gig, and if you can't show the gumption that separates you from them, that's your own fault. Many people don't go to gigs just for the fun of going to gigs, and the ones that do have more options that ever.

Are you going to be in the band that doesn't do anything except bitch and moan because you aren't handed high profile gigs for your unproven band? Or are you going to take action and make a name for yourself and draw organizers and fans to you for your work ethic and visibility?


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 21, 2014)

Well, if a promoter books bands and doesn't do anything besides find a venue, he doesn't deserve any more than any of the individual bands get, but most of the time, any money goes through that guy before the bands see it. And we're not talking about shows with five locals, we're talking about an already established act that needs openers. This is where, at least around here, the pay-to-play falls on its face. You are usually paying for a bunch of tickets and then given the "opportunity" to play on a side stage 2 hours before the posted show time to bartenders and the handful of people who showed up that early....If an "organizer" thinks he's needs to book eight locals who pay him $300/band to play to cover the cost of getting the headliner, maybe he needs to rethink who he brings to town. If its a local guy trying to make local bands pay him to set up a show for them, they should tell him to fvck off and do it themselves. Your Metallica example is kind of off-base, because obviously you're going to get good exposure from that, but at the end of the day, you're probably taking the slot from a more deserving band because you can afford it, which is BS. I'm getting in the habit of getting guarantees even for local shows to at least cover gas. If you want my band to come to your show, its gonna at least cost the price of travel. If you're only asking my band to play because you need $300 more dollars to make your guarantee....eat my fvckin ass.


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## eyeswide (Mar 21, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> Your Metallica example is kind of off-base, because obviously you're going to get good exposure from that, but at the end of the day, you're probably taking the slot from a more deserving band because you can afford it, which is BS.



I meant to go further on this and explain that paying that much to open for Metallica would be great, but paying to open for someone who wouldn't provide the exposure isn't worth it. Say it was $300 to play a shitty slot to open for some regional touring bands. If you decide to take it, then that's not the promoter's stupidity - it's yours.

In the scenarios I'm providing, I'm going under the assumption that no one is trying to screw anyone over. That is, the organizers are just trying to make a show happen and not lose money in the mean time. If a guy is putting on regional/national touring bands, then gets opening bands to pay to play in the slot, but has success at it, he isn't the one in the wrong business. You might not agree with this business model, but if it works and people buy into it, then so be it. If you have the mildest sense of responsibility and can handle putting on a show yourself, by all means do it! But don't act like a victim because someone else is doing something you don't like.

I don't disagree with getting guarantees, and when I play shows, I get paid for it. I also work my ass off promoting the show and my band, so you can also be guaranteed when I'm on a bill in my city, we are going to be bringing out our fans to see us. You'll know for sure when you see all the people in the crowd wearing our shirts. If you're not willing to get involved in promoting your own band, no one owes you anything, much less a gig or a guarantee.


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## GunpointMetal (Mar 21, 2014)

eyeswide said:


> If you're not willing to get involved in promoting your own band, no one owes you anything, much less a gig or a guarantee.



I agree with that statement. I'm not the victim here 'cause I won't take a pay-to-play gig unless I know its a win for us...gotta be the right bands, the right time slot, the right venue, but some of these venues/organizers are literally preying on young bands and ripping them off, mostly because they can get away with it.


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## eyeswide (Mar 21, 2014)

GunpointMetal said:


> I'm not the victim here 'cause I won't take a pay-to-play gig unless I know its a win for us...



This pretty much sums it all up. Put in the work for yourself. If someone sells you snake-oil, don't get mad at the salesman - learn from it and don't make the same mistake twice.

The tone some people were taking on here... Like, "I'm an unknown musician with no draw, but I expect you to pack a room for me and pay me money for it." We (metal musicians) play a niche genre with a small following. We're not cover bands at country bars with a built in audience. We are a much riskier venture, so bands and promoters/organizers need to adjust operations accordingly.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Mar 21, 2014)

larry said:


> I propose that local venue promoters/owners see the forest for the trees.
> 
> bands that are starting out, aren't going to draw very much in the first place. better to hold auditions for those interested in playing at my establishment and decide if they're good enough to book with incoming nationals. more people will come to my club to see bands play if the overall show is great.
> 
> ...




100% accurate and I'm sorry the best post in this thread.

The promoter I knew growing up used this method, made a good living and made his way to being THE guy in a huge scene and booking bands like Slayer.

Played 100's of shows for him and never sold 1 ticket.

You let a good band open for a huge crowd a few times and they will bring people back on a smaller show. Everyone wins.

You let a horrible band of well off young teens that can sell 50 tickets to friends and family, eventually the herd will thin.

Pay to play is bullshit yes, but you do have to understand the promoters usually lose money and that's why they do it.

The problem is they're using the wrong methods and no one has the balls these days to take chances on a great unknown band.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Mar 22, 2014)

abandonist said:


> So its all the promoter's fault?
> 
> None of this is on you?
> 
> ...



Funny but what's funny to me is clubs like this that shit on bands. I agree some of it's annoying and true but it's excessive.

I've played at this club and it was a complete shithole. They would always book 5 local bands that no ones heard of and get mad and post shit like this because they couldn't pack the place.

Pay to play at its finest and this club is no longer operating. I wonder why?

One of the guys there that was actually smart opened up Fubar, gets national bands in there and allows good locals to open up for them. That club is doing just fine and I don't think they have a we hate bands but actually need their support to stay in business because we're a dump flier on the wall.


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## ke7mix (Mar 31, 2014)

As much as I can say I agree that selling presales suck. BUT It can be good. If you sell a presale to someone they are WAY more likely to show up to the show because they have already dished out money to come, its not a greedy guarantee. It allows bands to promote for themselves other than the usual flyering (which is a very hard way to draw a real crowd) or by facebook events or word of mouth. 


When i say my band sells tickets, its because we are known in the scene for being a GOOD live band, which is a big part of the battle, if you cant play, its hard to get a good draw.

And yes the promoter will promote, but if the promoter is promoting for a venue who has Animals as Leaders, Bring Me the Horizon, Born of Osiris, and Dark Tranquility within the same 2 weeks as some local show with 5 bands that play every weekend, the promoter is going to promote the shows that actually will have draw.

Presale tickets are sadly a reality of non DIY local shows, because its about profit.

If sell presales and play good live, you will have a much better chance of being promoted by a promoter than some 5 piece who can barely bring 15 people to a local show.

+1 for the spacing your shows out, if you are good, it will increase your draw, becuase for the people who say "ill come to the next one" the next one is in 4 weeks


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## chamelious (Apr 3, 2014)

My thoughts:

This is called "pay to play" and should be avoided.

However, if you're playing a hometown show, you should be bringing more than 15 people. More like 5-10 times that. You do that by only playing locally a few times a year, and really putting in the promotion work. The fact that most bands DON'T do this, is why a lot of venues/promoters struggle, and why a lot of them start implementing pay to play in the first place.


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## Thaeon (Apr 15, 2014)

Pay to play sucks... I understand where the promoters are coming from. They don't want to lose money. Bands, as 'workers' at the event, should get paid. Bands are working professionals. This local model doesn't work for anyone. Any community that believes it does is shooting itself in the foot. Any time anyone is guaranteeing themselves pay at a local show (venue, promoter, or band) geared towards original music is a risk. If you are trying to minimize the risk you take by screwing either the venue or the bands, you are stealing from your coworkers. You will eventually put yourself out of business, because no one will work with you anymore. I've seen it happen a lot in my local scene. If you're promoting a show, and not taking a risk, you're robbing others of their hard earned money. If there is pay to play in your town, don't work with that promoter. Take the risk yourself if that's the only route you have in your town. If the promoters don't promote, save the cash among a couple bands you like in your town, and work out something with the club. Take the door, if its a bar, pay your sound guy out of pocket, and split the door. Any club with a bar is going to be stoked to get the extra traffic at the bar that bringing your friends in for a show will make them. Trust me. Music brings in more traffic. Some bars want a cover band and that sucks. Sadly, thats where the money is, in a local scene, till you have an actual fan base. Lastly, the economy is in the shitter. No one values music as much as musicians. The local scene is cannibalistic. The largest part of your audience will always be other bands. Everyone else doesn't care about local music. They want to see Kings of Leon or Radiohead or whoever else. If you don't put into it the value that you want out of it on the front end and aren't willing to take a loss at it, or do it just for fun, you'll never get anywhere. If you're playing to get paid, you'll never get anywhere because people can smell how disingenuous you are. Remember, how it feels to not get paid. Spend your money on shows for not only acts you love, but venues and promoters you love too. Give them both a reason to love you. It'll work in your favor, I promise.


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## Orgalmer (Apr 16, 2014)

Just thought I would weigh in on this a little as I'm from AU and possibly have had different experiences. Strong opinions ahoy! You don't have to agree with me on this, it's just my two cents.

Firstly, we don't have pay to play here. If you get on the bill, you're playing that show. We have presale tickets for most of what you would call "battle of the bands" and a few select venues also push this as well - in recent experience this was not so much of a problem as we could actually draw a small crowd.

The problem that we found was that while our first show brought over 50 people, the numbers very quickly dropped off, not because we were terrible (we were by far and away one of the more competent bands) but because *everybody had seen us at least twice before at the same venue.* Why would they need to come and see us again? It's just us, with the same shit bands, at the same average venue, doing the same thing each time. This is partially the bands fault for not being savvy enough to break out of this cycle.

Secondly, I feel like both points are somewhat right with regards to promoters/bands. Yes, bands need to not only have an interesting enough set to bring people (and bring them back), but they also need to network well enough to bring new people to the venue. Whether this is them going to other shows and networking (word of mouth, direct contact), working out something with their freinds to bring their friends (referral), or promoting through social media (see: completely fvcking useless) the band has to make a group effort to get this done and they have to think seriously about some questions:

- "What are our target audience?"
- "How do these people find out about shows?"
- "What makes our target audience attend a show?"
- "What kinds of shows will bring the best results for the above? House shows? Regional shows? Inner city shows?"

These are really simple questions that require the band to notch out an idea of who they are trying to attract to their shows. Knowing the above will give you an advantage over "generic djent band X" who just plays everywhere for any reason with no business model. You will therefore choose your shows carefully, so you're not wasting yours and the venues time.

In saying this, the responsibility also lies with the promoter to actually do their job, and promote the event. No, making a flyer and telling bands to sell tickets is NOT promoting. That's being a fvcking asshole and leeching off of the bands you put on. Promoting requires a concerted effort to actually do your job - whether this be social media (see: still pretty useless) or word of mouth/direct contact at other shows or putting on a band (or bands) with a reputation to make the show worth going to, it's the promoters job to do this and no one elses The bands will do what they can, but you can't rely on them to actually promote your show for you. This is exacerbated by promoters here enacting a minimum sale rule, where if I don't sell X amount of tickets, I have to pay the promoter instead of getting paid. I understand this, but it sucks all the same.

TL;DR: If you organise a shitty show, you're going to get a shitty turnout, and make a shitty amount of money, and woe betide any band who is unfortuante enough to get caught up in this business model. Aside from the small pool of bands with established connections, the great unwashed of the music industry are in a lose-lose situation while promoters have set themselves up for a win-win every time. For the industry to thrive, both parties need to work together as opposed to having an "us and them" mentality.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 16, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> For the industry to thrive, both parties need to work together as opposed to having an "us and them" mentality.



truth


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## Orgalmer (Apr 16, 2014)

I know, right?

I can't speak for the plethora of bands who have no idea and are just in it for funsies, but serious bands get stuck in this rut and it's not fair on anyone. Not the bands, not the promoters, not the fans. Something's gotta change!


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 16, 2014)

It seems like there really is two camps; the promoters, who think they should make good money doing very little (I called a venue and found and open date! Now I get 30% of the door and 15% of presale whether the bands get paid or not!), and bands who think that simply by existing they will have people come to their shows and get paid. The band needs to promote THE BAND i.e., get people excited about your music, meet people and let them know what you do...and the promoter needs to do the same for THE SHOW......

I've even seen some promoters that are band members who seem like they are trying to .... themselves...make your own band pay onto a show, then pay yourself separately for "promoting" whether "the band" makes anything....and other promoters who have actually gotten verbally upset about "local bands who think they should get paid to play" because "nobody does it for the music anymore".....whatever the .... that means.


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## Enselmis (Apr 16, 2014)

Man, I guess my band is lucky. We pay the venue money to book the place then we make every ticket we sell and then a portion of the booze. We usually split it equally between the bands playing the show. Typically we come away with a few hundred bucks per band.

edit: In regards to Orgaimer's post, I noticed the same thing. The first show has a fair bit of people then it sort of drops off. What I've also noticed though is that as time goes on, the numbers start to increase again. I think a big part of being in a band is making it through that sort of valley to the point where people start WANTING to show up to the next show and the next show. I think that most of what makes you a good band is your ability to make people have a good time. If the people in the crowd really enjoy themselves, feel involved and happy then they'll come back to your shows. At that point you stop needing to deal with shitty promoters, people just show up if you put on shows. I realize that's a very idealist attitude but I think it's reasobale at least.

Kind of off topic post but whatever.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 16, 2014)

Enselmis said:


> Man, I guess my band is lucky. We pay the venue money to book the place then we make every ticket we sell and then a portion of the booze. We usually split it equally between the bands playing the show. Typically we come away with a few hundred bucks per band.



Yeah, this is how we used to do it when we were younger, it was a lot easier to fill a place (and we could usually find a place for cheap if we wanted to do all ages). Then you are the promoter and the entertainment.


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## Thaeon (Apr 16, 2014)

Enselmis said:


> Man, I guess my band is lucky. We pay the venue money to book the place then we make every ticket we sell and then a portion of the booze. We usually split it equally between the bands playing the show. Typically we come away with a few hundred bucks per band.
> 
> edit: In regards to Orgaimer's post, I noticed the same thing. The first show has a fair bit of people then it sort of drops off. What I've also noticed though is that as time goes on, the numbers start to increase again. I think a big part of being in a band is making it through that sort of valley to the point where people start WANTING to show up to the next show and the next show. I think that most of what makes you a good band is your ability to make people have a good time. If the people in the crowd really enjoy themselves, feel involved and happy then they'll come back to your shows. At that point you stop needing to deal with shitty promoters, people just show up if you put on shows. I realize that's a very idealist attitude but I think it's reasobale at least.
> 
> Kind of off topic post but whatever.



It's a good idea to not saturate the market you're playing in. If you're wanting to play a couple times a month, I would trade shows with bands in the same area of the country. It's pretty easy to play a couple shows a weekend if you drive a couple hours, play a show, crash with a local band, drive a couple more hours saturday morning, play a show the next night in another city and drive home after the show. That way you can play at home once or twice a quarter and hit all of the other regional markets once or twice a quarter too. You'll make friends with some of the bands in the regional scene, and potentially get better traction. If you can say that you're booking shows regionally, then you'll be able to get the attention of people willing to take a risk on music.


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## Orgalmer (Apr 16, 2014)

> edit: In regards to Orgaimer's post, I noticed the same thing. The first show has a fair bit of people then it sort of drops off. What I've also noticed though is that as time goes on, the numbers start to increase again. I think a big part of being in a band is making it through that sort of valley to the point where people start WANTING to show up to the next show and the next show. I think that most of what makes you a good band is your ability to make people have a good time. If the people in the crowd really enjoy themselves, feel involved and happy then they'll come back to your shows. At that point you stop needing to deal with shitty promoters, people just show up if you put on shows. I realize that's a very idealist attitude but I think it's reasobale at least.



I totally agree with you man, the main issue is that when you have an initial surge of interest and it drops off, you have to start thinking really hard about how to get people coming to your shows without asking or hounding them. If you can crack that, then you're sorted.

This is where I could see being given a shot at a larger show would be really helpful, but obviously me not being a promoter I can't explain the reasons as to why this does not occur. I feel like the mistakes I've made in the past are the following:

- playing the same thing each time with very little interaction with the crowd and/or little difference between sets, show to show
- promotion of the show extends as far as doing "ticket runs" and posting on Facebook. Just not good enough to be honest. Going to other bands shows to show them support is a big gesture that you're in it for the industry and not just to wank off.
- playing the same venue at least four times (seriously) consecutively.
- Playing inner city shows when all the people that come to your show are already from your local area; what's the point? You need exposure in areas you don't frequent. Lack of regional shows, house shows, AA shows and self-organised shows means less audience exposure.

Thaeon's point about playing outside local and then coming back locally is a brilliant idea.

I feel like the last band I organised had a much better sense of what they were doing but still not enough to break through that barrier of shitty shows. Oh well, you live and learn right? Just learn from my mistakes guys, pleeez


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## Thaeon (Apr 16, 2014)

Orgalmer said:


> I totally agree with you man, the main issue is that when you have an initial surge of interest and it drops off, you have to start thinking really hard about how to get people coming to your shows without asking or hounding them. If you can crack that, then you're sorted.
> 
> This is where I could see being given a shot at a larger show would be really helpful, but obviously me not being a promoter I can't explain the reasons as to why this does not occur. I feel like the mistakes I've made in the past are the following:
> 
> ...



All good ideas... And thanks. I've been doing this for over 20 years. In that time I can't count how many bands have come and gone, and only four or five are doing anything worth mentioning industry wise. And I hate almost all of them. The flaming Lips, Hinder, Colourmusic, Shiny Toy Guns, Horse Thief and All American Rejects all came out of my local scene... NONE have played many local shows in that time save Colourmusic and Horse Thief. And they are still barely getting traction. Shiny Toy Guns moved to LA toget noticed and then moved back. I used to go to house parties that Jeremy Dawson DJ'd at.


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## Orgalmer (Apr 17, 2014)

> The flaming Lips, Hinder, Colourmusic, Shiny Toy Guns, Horse Thief and All American Rejects all came out of my local scene...



Well I know of The Flaming Lips, Hinder, Shiny Toy Guns and All American Rejects and I'm in Australia so they must be doing something right.

I see a lot of bands doing things that make them successful locally, but getting international attention is another ball game altogether. I'm not even touching that subject, I have no place talking shit about something I don't understand haha.

Maybe if/when I start up another project I'll have all the points I've mentioned above ironed out and can share my experience with you guys. I really hope that at least some of what I posted above helps someone out somehow.


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## Thaeon (Apr 17, 2014)

I'm honestly a late bloomer. I've been a part of that scene for over 20 years. I'm old enough that my first band was a grunge band in the mid 90's. That was never really my thing though. I went back to school and got a degree in performance and a minor in music business in my late 20's. I've done everything from glam to stoner metal to touring in a Johnny Cash impersonator's band. Seriously though, if you over saturate your potential fan base, they'll think, "Well they have a show next week too. I'll go to that one." Play enough in one market and they'll lose interest completely. Hinder played shows locally once every 4-6 months. ALL of their local shows were packed. Yes playing out is fun. But supply and demand rules work for live shows. Under supply the market with a quality show and you'll be sitting on some serious interest. If you don't want to start off doing regional stuff, still limit the local shows, and spend all that extra time making sure your set is flawless. Invest in some multimedia. Dudes on a stage isn't enough anymore. People want flashy. Give them something to post on Facebook and YouTube.


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## Orgalmer (Apr 17, 2014)

> Yes playing out is fun. But supply and demand rules work for live shows. Under supply the market with a quality show and you'll be sitting on some serious interest. If you don't want to start off doing regional stuff, still limit the local shows, and spend all that extra time making sure your set is flawless. Invest in some multimedia. Dudes on a stage isn't enough anymore. People want flashy. Give them something to post on Facebook and YouTube.



Quote for truth.


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## Enselmis (Apr 17, 2014)

Ha, that's cool. Big flaming lips fan here.


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## Thaeon (Apr 17, 2014)

I wish I could say the same. I've seen them put on some killer shows. Lately, Wayne has been out of it and a lot arrogant. He's got a local art venue that bands play at and there's a bar in a vagina. The whole thing comes off as pretentious. Hang out enough in the Oklahoma City bar scene and you'll see him a couple nights a week if you're lucky. He literally EXPECTS to get into local shows for free and pulls the "You know who I am, right?" on a regular basis. I'm not trying to bad mouth the guy. He's done some really interesting things in his career, but the fame, drugs and alcohol are taking enough of a toll that he's starting to alienate the bands that he'd want to bring on the road with him. Steven Drozd is one of the best dudes I've ever met. Super talented, super nice, and super humble. I wish them continued success simply for his sake.


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