# Stuck on the i-VI-VII progression



## gnoll (May 29, 2020)

I can't seem to get past the i-VI-VII progression. Basically everything I write is that progression. Even subconsciously, when I come up with a melody and write it out and put in the chords I'm like "fuuuuck, not again...." And when I listen to music, basically anything that stands out to me in a good way, is that progression. It's like I don't like anything else. Nothing else seems to sound as good. But at the same time, I feel like I need to move on. I can't be so stuck on this, or my music will be super lame and boring.

I feel like an idiot. Can I really not write more than this? Have any of you guys had similar problems? Any tips for me?


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## budda (May 29, 2020)

Have you tried forcing yourself to write in other progressions? Or at least learning music with other progressions?

Most heavy bands go i-vi to one extent or another. 0-8, 4-0, 7-3, 5-1, all the same progression but different keys. Pop punk choruses are *generally* i-vi-iii-iv. 

I would suggest learning music that doesnt follow the progression you like. It will force your brain to get familiar with other patterns.


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## DudeManBrother (May 29, 2020)

You can sub the VI for a iv, and the VII for a v*(1/2 dim). You can also sub the VII for a minor chord a semi tone above the i. You can add secondary dominants to any of them to add tension, and lengthen/strengthen the progression; and sometimes simply go back and forth between 2 chords until you really establish a new vibe.


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## gnoll (May 31, 2020)

budda said:


> Have you tried forcing yourself to write in other progressions? Or at least learning music with other progressions?
> 
> Most heavy bands go i-vi to one extent or another. 0-8, 4-0, 7-3, 5-1, all the same progression but different keys. Pop punk choruses are *generally* i-vi-iii-iv.
> 
> I would suggest learning music that doesnt follow the progression you like. It will force your brain to get familiar with other patterns.



Hm yeah but when I do other stuff it tends to not sound as good 

I think that may be my issue, I like the progression too much compared to other stuff!

Btw I hate pop punk ;[ haha



DudeManBrother said:


> You can sub the VI for a iv, and the VII for a v*(1/2 dim). You can also sub the VII for a minor chord a semi tone above the i. You can add secondary dominants to any of them to add tension, and lengthen/strengthen the progression; and sometimes simply go back and forth between 2 chords until you really establish a new vibe.



Thanks, good suggestions. I found one of my choruses where I actually do the iv, but VI first time around and then iv instead, pretty cool. Might just delete the VI part though.

I kinda wanna write some more brutal stuff but I seem to be stuck in tonal pretty-land...


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## budda (May 31, 2020)

@gnoll does it not sound as good, or not sound as good to you? Thus my suggestion to get out of your comfort zone.

To my only-knows-basic-theory brain, brutal stuff would be minor and diminished.


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## gnoll (May 31, 2020)

budda said:


> @gnoll does it not sound as good, or not sound as good to you? Thus my suggestion to get out of your comfort zone.
> 
> To my only-knows-basic-theory brain, brutal stuff would be minor and diminished.



If it doesn't sound good to me I doubt anybody else would like it. It feels like fumbling in the dark when I try to write stuff that I don't personally like/am comfortable with.


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## USMarine75 (May 31, 2020)

budda said:


> Pop punk choruses are *generally* i-vi-iii-iv.



Hmm I never learned it that way... I learned:

I-V-vi-IV

Alternates:
I-V-bVII-IV or i-V-bVII-IV
vi-IV-I-V
IV-I-V-vi

50s:
I-vi-IV-V

Pachelbel:
I-V-vi-iii-IV-I-IV-V

Jazz:
ii-V-I


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## gnoll (May 31, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Hmm I never learned it that way... I learned:
> 
> I-V-vi-IV
> 
> ...



Either way, tbh I think all of those kinda suck for metal. Like, major keys?? UHm no thanks   

But I think that's part of my problem, minor seems pretty restrictive in a way, like there's not THAT much you can do that sounds cool. It seems like 95% of the time I gravitate towards i-VI-VII and then occasionally I'll use iv and v and MAYBE III. But i-VI is my main thing I always do, and it annoys me. It's just littered all over all my songs.


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## USMarine75 (May 31, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Either way, tbh I think all of those kinda suck for metal. Like, major keys?? UHm no thanks



You can use parallel minor or secondary chords.


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## budda (May 31, 2020)

Major thirds are used in metal a ton...


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## USMarine75 (May 31, 2020)

budda said:


> Major thirds are used in metal a ton...



Yup ...


And if he starts on the III then his minor is really just the relative major.

If you want only minor chord progressions try these:
i-VI-III-VII
i-iv-V
i-VII-VI-V

But in the end, most modern metal doesn't use standard song structure, chord progressions, or harmony. So I don't understand what you're really asking.


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## gnoll (May 31, 2020)

budda said:


> Major thirds are used in metal a ton...



Sure but a major third isn't the same thing as a major key/tonality.



USMarine75 said:


> Yup ...




This song is a perfect example of the kind of boring i-VI-VII stuff I'm trying to avoid.



USMarine75 said:


> I don't understand what you're really asking.



Eh, maybe I don't either really...


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## USMarine75 (Jun 1, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Sure but a major third isn't the same thing as a major key/tonality.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What kind of music are you trying to write? What are some example songs?

Are we talking Sleeping with Sirens or Dying Fetus?


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## gnoll (Jun 1, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> What kind of music are you trying to write? What are some example songs?
> 
> Are we talking Sleeping with Sirens or Dying Fetus?



Hm good question.



Pretty much this! Fast and epic!

But I think I lean on i-VI too much like I said. This song I just posted seems basically i-v-VI-iv all the way, and I like it, but I don't know... When I write stuff it tends to almost only sound good with i-VI but that gets old.

Also I kind of wish I could write more brutal parts like Vader or something... Because I'm not sure I like it when _everything _sounds so pretty.

So something like this:



But I get a bit nervous when I don't have any harmony going on. Like "is this too simple??"

Tbh I think there may be a bigger problem with my ability rather than my knowledge. Like, I mostly know what notes make sense, but how do I make them sound good in practice?


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## Musiscience (Jun 4, 2020)

Maybe a bit ridiculous, but one thing I used in the past to throw me off my usual patterns is to use a random number generator. You generate a random number of x digits, remove 0s, 8s and 9s and play the progression. Sometimes its meh, sometimes it's good, but it always gives new ideas for things I wouldn't have played otherwise. 

Then you can tweak it however you like by throwing some inversions, 7ths, 9ths, substitutions and etc. in there. 

Ex: https://www.calculator.net/random-number-generator.html


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## gnoll (Jun 4, 2020)

Musiscience said:


> Maybe a bit ridiculous, but one thing I used in the past to throw me off my usual patterns is to use a random number generator. You generate a random number of x digits, remove 0s, 8s and 9s and play the progression. Sometimes its meh, sometimes it's good, but it always gives new ideas for things I wouldn't have played otherwise.
> 
> Then you can tweak it however you like by throwing some inversions, 7ths, 9ths, substitutions and etc. in there.
> 
> Ex: https://www.calculator.net/random-number-generator.html



Pretty cool way to generate ideas, I might give that a shot. I quite like that kind of randomness when starting out on new songs, it's nice to have something a bit weird to work from.


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## Musiscience (Jun 4, 2020)

gnoll said:


> Pretty cool way to generate ideas, I might give that a shot. I quite like that kind of randomness when starting out on new songs, it's nice to have something a bit weird to work from.



That was really the intention doing this. More like a way to spark ideas and do something I wouldn't normally do. Let me know what you come up with using this!


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## fantom (Jun 5, 2020)

The progression is just too engrained in rock/metal. Hell, I think most MegaMan songs are that progression. So...instead of walking away from a i-VI-VII, embrace it. Figure out ways you can use the sound you like in ways that are different.

This video immediately comes to mind. (Touhou is awesome btw, if you want metal shred, look up Demetori)


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## gnoll (Jun 5, 2020)

fantom said:


> The progression is just too engrained in rock/metal. Hell, I think most MegaMan songs are that progression. So...instead of walking away from a i-VI-VII, embrace it. Figure out ways you can use the sound you like in ways that are different.
> 
> This video immediately comes to mind. (Touhou is awesome btw, if you want metal shred, look up Demetori)




Hey I think you make a great point!

I think the progression itself is one thing, but not the only thing I repeat. My melodies tend to land on the to me "comfortable" chord tones, the rhythm tends to be similar, and the tempo as well.

I'm going to make an effort to do more adventurous things, even if it's over a i-VI-VII. On the occasions where I do more (for me) advanced stuff like multiple voices, 7s and 9s in chords etc. that's when I tend to be really happy with the results. Only downside is those sections take a long time for me to write!


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## fantom (Jun 6, 2020)

I think you missed the bigger point. It's ok if your preferences are similar. I think having a "go-to" sound is fine. Look at bands like Amon Amarth releasing the "same album" 8 times. Instead of trying to avoid it, just try to spice things up by making a conscious effort to try one new thing each time you have a riff or melody you like. Change a note than what you would normally land on. Try key changes. Try substitutions. Try new rhythms or time signatures. Try bending strings. Try borrowing chords from parallel keys. Try modulation. There is no need to replace how you play. Try to augment what is working for you. Over time, each little increment that you gel with expand your comfort zone.

The idea with 7th and 9th is great. And ya it takes time. That is what makes it feel good!


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## c7spheres (Jun 6, 2020)

- If you try I-vi-vii in major then you have access to all the tones in key. From there you can expand to anything at all really.
- Switch up to a minor key at the vi tone.
- Use chord scales and experiment with each chord and the extensions.
- As stated use secondary dominants / chords and also parallel borrowing.
- You're framework is good because it's easy access to all the tones in major and minor keys. From there you can try different modal options for flavor. - Without requiring a backing track or drone tone try really exploring the modal textures. Unlike popular opinion you can make modes sound like a mode without drone and background tone support. You can do it solo. You can make a mode sound like it's character through technique. - Try a locrian or phrygian for example. Pretty boring on the surface but if you use inflection, pick technique, vibrato, legato, prebend release, dynamicly light hard/soft picking type stuff suddenly it sounds exotic almostl like a sitar instead of like major mode 3 or 7 etc. Penta and Hexatonics work good for this too. melodic and harmonic/ ascending and descending jazz minor and the standards are in place and used 99% of the time because they work for everything.
- Experiment with technique and nuances. Look up an old tab book or something with all the technique explinations and go to town. When you get little riff nuggets turn it into something you like and make a statement through your phrasing. Phrasing and minor changes have a bigger effect than it seems.
- When it feels complete, you run out of ideas, or feel like it needs to change and are in a rut and don't know what to do then change up the rhythm or alternate syncopations of the same riff, maybe progressively add or subtract notes or nuances like bends and mutes etc, speed up or slow down, use half and double time, use repetition,
- Make purposeful use of rests and silence too along with dynamic light/hard picking etc. If that aint working try both subtle and/or dramatic hard changes in the progression using one of the tones or intervals of the melody/harmony you were just using. That will help it stay cohesive easier than combining random phrases/riffs. 
- The progression doens't really matter much. It's the phrasing and mood that makes the difference. It's why everything rom blues to rock can use a II-V-I or vi-ii-V-I etc.
- Keep doing and writing stuff and soon you'll have more than you know what to do with.


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## gnoll (Jun 6, 2020)

fantom said:


> I think you missed the bigger point. It's ok if your preferences are similar. I think having a "go-to" sound is fine.



Okay and I agree to a point. But when I listen to my songs and hear the same things come up again and again that's just not good enough for me. Maybe that sounds pretentious, but it is what it is. I have to be happy with it, or it's no good.


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