# Sinead O'Connor, now a Muslim, upsets Muslims by hating white people...



## PunkBillCarson (Nov 7, 2018)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life...ims-calls-white-people-disgusting/1912720002/

Sinead O'Connor is back in the controversy spotlight.

The Irish singer, who announced she has converted to Islam and changed her name to Shuhada Davitt, took to Twitter on Tuesday to tell her followers that she doesn't want to spend time with white people ever again, calling them "disgusting."

"I'm terribly sorry," her tweet said. "What I'm about to say is something so racist I never thought my soul could ever feel it. But truly I never wanna spend time with white people again (if that's what non-muslims are called). Not for one moment, for any reason. They are disgusting."

Not sure how to embed tweets here but there were responses from some that she upset, including Muslims:

Ebony Ciantar: "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white, except by piety”Prophet Mohammed (PBUH)No matter what happens, have sabr it’s our superpower sis 


fatima Sada: Easy sister. All are equal in the eyes of Allah...

She's also changed her name from Sinead O'Connor to Shuhada Devitt.

Didn't know if this belonged in general music or politics, but yeah... Here this is.


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## Randy (Nov 7, 2018)

She's always seemed like a contrarian


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 7, 2018)

ah yes, nothing says fuck white people quite like a mentally ill washed up white irish ex-catholic singer who converted to islam.


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## Mathemagician (Nov 7, 2018)

You know when your mom would drag you to church, and there would be people who went WAY harder for Jesus than the other church goers?

They were new recent converts. They felt like they had to make up for lost Jesus and “prove” that they are really born again. You know to avoid a lake of fire and brimstone.

When people change from any religion to another there’s a tendency to go “all in” to prove they are serious.

But people do this when they get a new hobby too. Frank from the office starts taking golf lessons and likes it? By month 3 he’s going to own a $2-3k set of clubs and several fruity outfits. (CrossFit, Veganism, etc etc).

Shuhada is just trying to figure out where they belong.

That said it’s still offensive and seems to undermine the entire reason one would change faiths.


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## tedtan (Nov 7, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> "I'm terribly sorry," her tweet said. "What I'm about to say is something so racist I never thought my soul could ever feel it. But truly I never wanna spend time with white people again (*if that's what non-muslims are called*). Not for one moment, for any reason. They are disgusting."



That sounds like it's about religion rather than race.


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 7, 2018)

This is only going to do nothing but hurt the religion she has joined because ignorant people (which show up in droves) are only going to focus on HER comments on not those challenging her statements.


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 7, 2018)

tedtan said:


> That sounds like it's about religion rather than race.




Well according to that line, all non-Muslims are white even if they're black, Mexican, what have you...


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## tedtan (Nov 7, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Well according to that line, all non-Muslims are white even if they're black, Mexican, what have you...



You could interpret it that way, but I think she just meant that Muslims are typically people of a darker complexion. Not that it matters - I doubt anyone cares what she does/says/thinks these days.


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 7, 2018)

tedtan said:


> You could interpret it that way, but I think she just meant that Muslims are typically people of a darker complexion. Not that it matters - I doubt anyone cares what she does/says/thinks these days.



I know, I was making a joke. Poking fun at her idiocy.


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## Ralyks (Nov 7, 2018)

When I first saw this a few weeks ago, my first thought was "This didn't happen already?"


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## Drew (Nov 7, 2018)

I care. Really. I do. 

*yawn*


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## tedtan (Nov 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> I know, I was making a joke. Poking fun at her idiocy.



Oh, I know - I was laughing with you.


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## narad (Nov 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Didn't know if this belonged in general music or politics, but yeah... Here this is.



We don't have a "Garbage" subforum?


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 9, 2018)




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## lewis (Nov 9, 2018)

Sinead O'Bomber

but in all seriousness, people just swapping religions or whatever is nonsense haha. This reeks of a fake life choice just to seem up with the times or something. Complete agenda. Either that or she has been brainwashed into going full die hard religious.

(i hate all religion...can you tell haha)


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## Drew (Nov 9, 2018)

lewis said:


> Sinead O'Bomber
> 
> but in all seriousness, people just swapping religions or whatever is nonsense haha. This reeks of a fake life choice just to seem up with the times or something. Complete agenda. Either that or she has been brainwashed into going full die hard religious.
> 
> (i hate all religion...can you tell haha)


Eh, people want answers. You can convince yourself of anything if you want to badly enough. I doubt it was trying to seem trendy or brainwash, I bet she just thought something was missing in her life and convinced herself this filled that gap. 

This is a non-story, either way.


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## Lemonbaby (Nov 9, 2018)

"*More: *Sinead O'Connor, in Facebook video, says she's battling mental illness"

Looks like she lost the battle...


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## tedtan (Nov 9, 2018)

I think she lost that one a good while back.


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## Humbuck (Nov 10, 2018)

Dummy.


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## narad (Nov 10, 2018)

I'm very disappointed that no one really nailed their commentary on this with a good "Nothing Compares 2 You" pun.


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 10, 2018)

narad said:


> I'm very disappointed that no one really nailed their commentary on this with a good "Nothing Compares 2 You" pun.




We left that kind of genius to you. Anything you come up with would likely be pretty good. Hell, I'm still laughing over that whole "my wife's a pencil sharpener line."


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## narad (Nov 10, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> We left that kind of genius to you. Anything you come up with would likely be pretty good. Hell, I'm still laughing over that whole "my wife's a pencil sharpener line."



Ah, sorry man - well's run dry


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 10, 2018)

narad said:


> Ah, sorry man - well's run dry




Goddamn it, I was counting on you.  ...


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## Demiurge (Nov 11, 2018)

I'm not really interested in _going there_ on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?


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## vilk (Nov 12, 2018)

Demiurge said:


> I'm not really interested in _going there_ on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?



No, it isn't. The concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous, and the only people who talk about it are conservatives who want to try to pretend that everyone who isn't conservative is the meme picture of the chubby girl with colored hair and plastic framed glasses.


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## Demiurge (Nov 12, 2018)

^Don't get me wrong, I think that the two narratives are often preposterous, too, which is why I found the apparent intersection of the two- in their most-unfavorable forms- to be odd.


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## Drew (Nov 13, 2018)

vilk said:


> No, it isn't. The concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous, and the only people who talk about it are conservatives who want to try to pretend that everyone who isn't conservative is the meme picture of the chubby girl with colored hair and plastic framed glasses.


I don't want to pull this further off topic, but I think this is an evolving conversation we'll be having for some time. I think cultural appropriation in the "white girl sorority chick wearing an "indian headdress" to Coachella because it's, like, SO spiritual, man..." sense is pretty clearly offensive in ways that, say, the same woman five years later spending two years traveling in mexico and studying traditional Mexican cooking techniques and recipes and then coming back to the states and opening a Mexican fusion restaurant, taking those lessons and recipes she learned and applying the techniques and ingredients in new ways and with new ingredients. 

I think there's a pretty clear demarcation there, and that cultural mingling is potentially a good thing if it's done with knowledge and respect, rather than ignorance. But, I would hardly go so far as to argue that "cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous."


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## vilk (Nov 13, 2018)

Drew said:


> I don't want to pull this further off topic, but I think this is an evolving conversation we'll be having for some time. I think cultural appropriation in the "white girl sorority chick wearing an "indian headdress" to Coachella because it's, like, SO spiritual, man..." sense is pretty clearly offensive in ways that, say, the same woman five years later spending two years traveling in mexico and studying traditional Mexican cooking techniques and recipes and then coming back to the states and opening a Mexican fusion restaurant, taking those lessons and recipes she learned and applying the techniques and ingredients in new ways and with new ingredients.
> 
> I think there's a pretty clear demarcation there, and that cultural mingling is potentially a good thing if it's done with knowledge and respect, rather than ignorance. But, I would hardly go so far as to argue that "cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous."



What's the metric here? How do you measure appreciation? How do you measure aesthetic depth? What about the fact that some people are just not very deep as an inherent character trait? Should they be barred from foreign culture?

You can draw your line where you want to, but at the very least you must admit that it's totally arbitrary and relative to you as an individual... kinda seems to me like it could be dismissed as "food is ok because I like to eat it, but headdress are not because I don't care about fashion". How does one compare the experience of wearing clothes with the experience of eating food?


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## Drew (Nov 14, 2018)

vilk said:


> What's the metric here? How do you measure appreciation? How do you measure aesthetic depth? What about the fact that some people are just not very deep as an inherent character trait? Should they be barred from foreign culture?
> 
> You can draw your line where you want to, but at the very least you must admit that it's totally arbitrary and relative to you as an individual... kinda seems to me like it could be dismissed as "food is ok because I like to eat it, but headdress are not because I don't care about fashion". How does one compare the experience of wearing clothes with the experience of eating food?


I mean, with all due respect, you're looking at this the wrong way. 

IS there a difference between those two scenarios? I think the answer is pretty self-obviously yes. As you approach some hypothetical midpoint, does that become more blurry? Sure... Life is full of grey areas. But if you dial it back a bit and take the broader view, there are pretty clearly situations where "cultural appropriation" IS a thing, is kind of troubling, and could fairly be depicted as some sort of objectification of a culture. The fact that the line between a legitimate and deep appreciation, and a superficial and objectifying one, can get blurry as you move towards the middle doesn't disprove the extremes exist. 

I mean, tl;dr - you can find two VERY similar shades of grey. That doesn't disprove the existence of black and white.


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## vilk (Nov 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> I mean, with all due respect, you're looking at this the wrong way.
> 
> IS there a difference between those two scenarios? I think the answer is pretty self-obviously yes. As you approach some hypothetical midpoint, does that become more blurry? Sure... Life is full of grey areas. But if you dial it back a bit and take the broader view, there are pretty clearly situations where "cultural appropriation" IS a thing, is kind of troubling, and could fairly be depicted as some sort of objectification of a culture. The fact that the line between a legitimate and deep appreciation, and a superficial and objectifying one, can get blurry as you move towards the middle doesn't disprove the extremes exist.
> 
> I mean, tl;dr - you can find two VERY similar shades of grey. That doesn't disprove the existence of black and white.


I'm not denying that cultural appropriation exists; in fact the opposite. Literally everything about culture is appropriated, down to the alphabet I'm using to write. What I'm denying is that it legitimately merits offense or that there's even any objective way to judge it.

It's my hypothesis that people who actively complain about cultural appropriation do not have an in depth knowledge of their own history, because if they did they would understand that they what they consider to be their own culture is in fact appropriated from other cultures.


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## Drew (Nov 14, 2018)

vilk said:


> I'm not denying that cultural appropriation exists; in fact the opposite. Literally everything about culture is appropriated, down to the alphabet I'm using to write. What I'm denying is that it legitimately merits offense or that there's even any objective way to judge it.
> 
> It's my hypothesis that people who actively complain about cultural appropriation do not have an in depth knowledge of their own history, because if they did they would understand that they what they consider to be their own culture is in fact appropriated from other cultures.


So, are you saying you see NO distinction between those two scenarios I outlined?


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## vilk (Nov 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> So, are you saying you see NO distinction between those two scenarios I outlined?


I'm saying that any distinction is arbitrary and moot.


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## Drew (Nov 14, 2018)

vilk said:


> I'm saying that any distinction is arbitrary and moot.


So, you DO see a distinction?


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## vilk (Nov 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> So, you DO see a distinction?


You mean that headresses are generally inedible? Yeah, I realized.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 14, 2018)

@vilk can you just engage in @Drew's argument so we can move on to more important things like taco recipes.


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## Drew (Nov 14, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> @vilk can you just engage in @Drew's argument so we can move on to more important things like taco recipes.


 No shit, right? 

Idunno, man. I think in general, arguing "these two things are two points on a spectrum that are very close together, and they're tough to tell apart, so therefore everything on the spectrum is basically the same" isn't an intellectually honest argument, and I've never actually heard anyone argue that cultural appropriation isn't an actual issue before, at least outside Alex Jones and Fox talking heads. I can't agree with you here. 

And, if anyone DOES have any good taco recipies, I'm all ears - I'd particularly be up for a couple braised pork recipes. I've done a couple carnitas recipes, but in general I haven't really been floored - maybe this is the Italian in me but I'd like something a little more flavored and stewed. 

Hell, really good Mexican cookbook recommendations would be appreciated too.


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## vilk (Nov 14, 2018)

No, I see no distinction between the integrity of the cultural experience of eating a cultural food as compared with wearing a cultural clothing item. In the example Drew provided, the chef has studied the culture before cooking while the concert goer is assumed not to have... But I somehow doubt anyone would call it cultural appropriation for someone who is ignorant of Mexican culture to eat a taco. To me it seems like a personal bias that many people probably have with regards to fashion as compared with cuisine.

But even so, it's all besides my main point, which is that it's silly to pretend that any aspect of any culture must "belong" to only certain people and only be used for traditional ways, obviously excluding cases of racism and speading hate.


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## Drew (Nov 14, 2018)

vilk said:


> No, I see no distinction between the integrity of the cultural experience of eating a cultural food as compared with wearing a cultural clothing item. In the example Drew provided, the chef has studied the culture before cooking while the concert goer is assumed not to have... But I somehow doubt anyone would call it cultural appropriation for someone who is ignorant of Mexican culture to eat a taco. To me it seems like a personal bias that many people probably have with regards to fashion as compared with cuisine.


With all due respect, that's NOT the distinction I made - taking the time to immerse yourself in, study, and understand a culture before adopting elements of it vs. "oooh! pretty!" - but suit yourself.


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## vilk (Nov 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> With all due respect, that's NOT the distinction I made - taking the time to immerse yourself in, study, and understand a culture before adopting elements of it vs. "oooh! pretty!" - but suit yourself.


Replace "oooh! pretty!" with "oooh! tasty!" or "oooh! jammin!" or "oooh! fun!"

Have you ever enjoyed Ravi Shankar? And exactly how much can you tell me about India so as to qualify your enjoyment? Should _I_ stop listening to Ravi Shankar, since I don't know and don't intend to learn about India?

...since you say it's not a bias based on relative interest in food as compared with fashion, then in the same way the coachella girl ought not wear the oooh! pretty headdress should I not listen to my oooh! jammin! Ravi cds? If that's too far, then maybe just make sure that I don't 'advertise' myself as a fan of Indian music lest someone mistakenly believe that my enjoyment of the music is anything more than superficial?

-----

What would your advice be then to the hypothetical coachella girl? "Stick to you _own_ culture!" ?? "Why don't you take that headdress off and go study Native American history and then it will be OK if you bring it back next year" ??

... but what is coachella girl's culture? If you break it down, it's all appropriated. You cannot escape cultural appropriation, it permeates almost every detail of your life, from the coffee you drink, to the language you speak, the clothes you wear.

I have taken time to immerse myself in, study, and understand a foreign culture (well, as best as I can), and would you like to know what I learned about it? That it's appropriated from other cultures. And that's for a relatively isolated culture, historically speaking. And this is what has helped me to come to these views on cultural appropriation. 

-----

It kinda seems to me that your real issue is just with _posers_. That kind of thing certainly bothers me, too. But consider that people being _fake_ is not limited to their superficial interest in non-white cultures. I believe that many people trying to frame "cultural appropriation" as a social infraction are really trying to condemn _superficiality _but just getting mixed up because they fail to see the big picture: culture = appropriation

-----

I kinda think people just want to especially hate on people wearing Native American (or has it officially been changed to Indigenous American?) items because they got genocided. Not to make light of that fact, but we need to at least recognize that bias. I also think people just wanna hate on dumb, pretty girls.


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## tedtan (Nov 14, 2018)

Drew said:


> And, if anyone DOES have any good taco recipies, I'm all ears - I'd particularly be up for a couple braised pork recipes. I've done a couple carnitas recipes, but in general I haven't really been floored - maybe this is the Italian in me but I'd like something a little more flavored and stewed.



To get this thread back on track:

Carnitas are better IMO if they are slow cooked in some type of marinade (like in a crock pot) so they absorb the flavor all day long as they cook. You can shake the juice off and drop the meat in a hot skillet for a bit if you want it a bit caramelized.

But I think the dish you are looking for is tacos al pastor. In Texas, the pork is usually chopped, but in Mexico, it would cook on a rotisserie and the vendor would slice some off (like gyro lamb) and sear it on a skillet before serving on soft corn tortillas. Either way has more flavor than carnitas and goes well with pineapple (I've even seen some places mix the pastor with pineapple in the taco, though I doubt that is authentic).

I don't have a recipe or a cookbook to recommend, but that should point you in the right direction.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 14, 2018)

"Sinead o'Connor is a hypocritical muslim."
"Here's the difference between carnitas and al pastor."

Thank you, SSO.


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## tedtan (Nov 14, 2018)

Any time.


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## Drew (Nov 14, 2018)

tedtan said:


> To get this thread back on track:
> 
> Carnitas are better IMO if they are slow cooked in some type of marinade (like in a crock pot) so they absorb the flavor all day long as they cook. You can shake the juice off and drop the meat in a hot skillet for a bit if you want it a bit caramelized.
> 
> ...


Yeah, a couple local mexican places around me do that and it's pretty good. Idunno, though... Gotta do some digging. 



vilk said:


> stuff


No, you're still not understanding the point I'm making. 

"look at me! I'm wearing a headdress! I'm a Native American!" is offensive because it betrays a complete lack of understanding of the cultural traditions it's borrowing from. 

Eating a taco is not cultural appropriation. "Look at me! I'm a white dude making tacos, I'm so Mexican!" with a can of El Paso taco sauce and ground beef spice mix is very likely to be cultural appropriation. Putting the work in to actually learn the culinary traditions and techniques before opening a Mexican restaurant, as a white man, is way more likely to be something you can defend from accusations of cultural appropriation. 

Listening to a Ravi Shankar album - to be honest, I'm not sure I ever have - is not cultural appropriation. Picking up a sarod or sitar and writing drone-y music with "exotic" themes - hi, Beatles, looking at you! - on the other hand, is very likely cultural appropriation. Spending the decade or two generally considered necessary to really master the traditions of indian classical music and then releasing an album performing traditional ragas as a white man (or woman) on the other hand is way less likely to lead to accusations of cultural appropriation - Danny Carey, for example, has been studying tabla playing for a couple decades now, and while it definitely influences his playing it comes across in a very non-traditional manner, yet I don't know anyone who's accused him of cultural appropriation. 

I'm not sure why you're getting so worked up and defensive about this - when you zoom out to the macro level, I think this is pretty pretty clear; there's a difference between immersing yourself in a tradition, and simply grabbing bits and pieces of things that you don't understand. And, not for nothing, I'd point out it's no coincidence that generally the groups being appropriated from are historically oppressed and marginalized, and those doing the cultural appropriation are historically the oppressors, so it's absolutely about a power imbalance, and as a white man saying "cultural appropriation is a myth" as a white man yourself is an extension of that power imbalance. 

If a historically oppressed group is crying foul about cultural appropriation, then I think we as the descendants of those who have historically benefited from that oppression have to at LEAST hear them out.


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## vilk (Nov 14, 2018)

I'm not being defensive; I'm trying to explain it to you better because you keep replying to me with stuff that is more or less non-sequitur to my point, which I'm convinced you still aren't hearing. I certainly believe that I get your point, but your point isn't a response to my own...

_"look at me! I'm wearing a headdress! I'm a Native American!" _

^No one is doing this. Well, except maybe some actual Native Americans. But I don't believe that is the reason why girls wear headdresses to coachella. What if someone saw you with a bowl of ramen and assumed you were saying "look at me! I'm eating ramen! I'm Chinese!" (_But vilk, isn't ramen Japanese? _They culturally appropriated it from China, like they did with their writing system and Buddhism etc etc etc. ((BTW, the Chinese culturally appropriated Buddhism from India.)))

I guess I lack the ability to explain it any better than I already have, so if you still can't see how moot and capricious the whole concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is then I'm sorry especially because all cultures are ultimately derived from other cultural appropriations, I just can't find the value in addressing it for the purpose of putting innocent people down.

Obviously, being racist is no good, and using cultural items to target a group for hateful reasons is wrong. (Then again, I seem to be perfectly OK with metal bands trashing Christianity and blatantly desecrating their symbols lol). But that is an entirely separate issue from modern attempts to suggest that there is some inherent and wholly negative quality to cultural appropriation (despite that it permeates all culture). Which is also an entirely separate issue from the perceived negative quality of being a poser or being superficial--not that there's any quantitative way to measure that anyway. I'm not advocating on behalf of ignorance; I think there is value in learning about the cultures you choose to include in your life whether it be food, dress, music, etc. But it's unrealistic to expect everyone to become an expert in all cultures simply to enjoy a food, dress, music, etc. And even if one refrained from foreign foods or headdresses, they'd still technically be engaging in cultural appropriation simply by the nature of living in America (or anywhere these days, society is becoming global).

Cultural appropriation can be a good thing. I'd also argue that it's a natural thing. It is the reason why we have many of the things we enjoy in life today.

I'm sorry for repeating myself so much


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## narad (Nov 15, 2018)

vilk said:


> I'm not denying that cultural appropriation exists; in fact the opposite. Literally everything about culture is appropriated, down to the alphabet I'm using to write. What I'm denying is that it legitimately merits offense or that there's even any objective way to judge it.
> 
> It's my hypothesis that people who actively complain about cultural appropriation do not have an in depth knowledge of their own history, because if they did they would understand that they what they consider to be their own culture is in fact appropriated from other cultures.



I generally agree with you on this stuff, but diverge in that, while all culture is appropriated, some culture comes with baggage. For instance, if you were a native american born on a reservation you're at quite a disadvantage in succeeding the usual path to the american dream, and have other issues, like.. do you learn the tribal language, knowing it will otherwise die out, and take part in keeping that culture alive. Or do you prioritize making it in the larger society? When you fight against those challenges and make hard decisions like that, you have this vested interest, and seeing someone grab some bit of your culture because it's cool is a bit insulting, especially in the larger narrative of native american history.

In short, in your view it sounds like, everyone's entitled to culture because everyone's their own person, and culture is constantly mixing and changing. Cool stuff is cool and no one owns it. But some people pay a cost for their culture (or associated things like ethnic background). 

But yea, IIRC you were in Japan, and then I'm pretty sure at some point you've seen young Japanese boys dicking around with fake kendo-style sword fighting. The idea of kids of other races being accused of cultural appropriation for similar behavior is absurd, when both groups of kids are equally oblivious to any real significance of that bit of culture. This sort of scenario can be applied to a lot of the cultural appropriation accusations I see.

In my view @Drew 's analogy is flawed -- the girl with the headdress at Coachella is offensive to native american culture in the same way a native american girl wearing the headdress would be -- either guilty of similar ignorance, or by knowingly borrowing something of cultural significance to just look awesome at a music festival. And similarly, the girl opening the fusion restaurant isn't any more or less guilty of cultural appropriation, regardless of how much time she spent in the books.


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## vilk (Nov 15, 2018)

narad said:


> I generally agree with you on this stuff, but diverge in that, while all culture is appropriated, some culture comes with baggage. For instance, if you were a native american born on a reservation you're at quite a disadvantage in succeeding the usual path to the american dream, and have other issues, like.. do you learn the tribal language, knowing it will otherwise die out, and take part in keeping that culture alive. Or do you prioritize making it in the larger society? When you fight against those challenges and make hard decisions like that, you have this vested interest, and seeing someone grab some bit of your culture because it's cool is a bit insulting, especially in the larger narrative of native american history.



I certainly don't disagree with the first part of what you wrote. White privilege, or in this context, non-white anti-privilege? is certainly a fact of reality, and it's also measurable in many ways. 

However, I guess I disagree that it's insulting by nature. Now maybe I'm not capable of understanding because of my own white privilege? But as a fellow Oubei-jin, narad, have you ever felt offended by the many ways that the Japanese appropriate Western culture? I haven't. I've thought it was silly and inaccurate (as it often is), but I never felt like _these people are attacking me_. Because they aren't. They're just being Japanese; it has nothing to do with me. In today's day and age we have developed a sort of culture of victimhood. It began with minorities who were _actual_ victims of _real_ racism, but it has been appropriated  by virtually everyone at this point, even white billionaire presidents. Now that is a subject that actually _is_ related to the concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction. But I digress.


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## Drew (Nov 15, 2018)

Vilk, end of the day, I think you're wrong, I think there's a danger in the believe that "cultural appropriation is always ok," and I don't think you're going to change my mind.


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 15, 2018)

Ah... The United States of America... A melting pot of culture appropriation.

Can someone tell me how to act white? Do we just go back to building picket fences, reading a newspaper, combing our hair to the sides? I'm lost here.


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## vilk (Nov 15, 2018)

Drew said:


> Vilk, end of the day, I think you're wrong, I think there's a danger in the believe that "cultural appropriation is always ok," and I don't think you're going to change my mind.


But that's still not even what I'm saying... might be closer if you just left it at "cultural appropriation is always"... oh well...


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## Drew (Nov 15, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Ah... The United States of America... A melting pot of culture appropriation.
> 
> Can someone tell me how to act white? Do we just go back to building picket fences, reading a newspaper, combing our hair to the sides? I'm lost here.


Buy a white picket fence, a car, a garage, a chicken, a pot to put it in, and and a half kids. 

Just don't blame me when the cops start nosing around wondering what you're doing with half a kid.


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## Drew (Nov 15, 2018)

vilk said:


> But that's still not even what I'm saying... might be closer if you just left it at "cultural appropriation is always"... oh well...


I mean, I thought this was pretty explicit: 


Demiurge said:


> I'm not really interested in _going there_ on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?





vilk said:


> No, it isn't. The concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction is preposterous, and the only people who talk about it are conservatives who want to try to pretend that everyone who isn't conservative is the meme picture of the chubby girl with colored hair and plastic framed glasses.


...if you wanted to nitpick, you could argue that it was "Cultural appropriation is never wrong," rather than "...always ok," but that's about it.


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## tedtan (Nov 15, 2018)

I think vilk is saying that 1) no one owns culture, and 2) even if they did, it was appropriated from elsewhere long before we existed, so they don't really own it anyway. Therefore, culture should be a free for all so long as it is not used in a discriminatory fashion.

Is that correct?


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## vilk (Nov 15, 2018)

Drew said:


> I mean, I thought this was pretty explicit:
> 
> 
> ...if you wanted to nitpick, you could argue that it was "Cultural appropriation is never wrong," rather than "...always ok," but that's about it.



I don't see it, didn't write it. Maybe try reading what I've written since that first post over again? I don't mean that condescendingly. I honestly have no idea how you can't figure out what I'm trying to say at this point, unless it's my own inability to articulate what I mean. And if you can, then I honestly have no idea why you would reply suggesting that it's my point of view that "cultural appropriation is always OK" or "never wrong". It would be better to say "cultural appropriation is not _inherently_ wrong" or "cultural appropriation as a social infraction is a concept that is reliant on ignorance of the origin of culture" or something. In your color analogy--cultural appropriation is neither black nor white nor grey; rather it's the canvas. idk.



tedtan said:


> I think vilk is saying that 1) no one owns culture, and 2) even if they did, it was appropriated from elsewhere long before we existed, so they don't really own it anyway. Therefore, culture should be a free for all so long as it is not used in a discriminatory fashion.
> 
> Is that correct?



It's pretty close. I think saying "free for all" puts a little bit of a 'chaotic' spin on it but yeah I guess that's what I'm saying.


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 15, 2018)

Thank fuck FOR culture appropriation because we may not have this website or the music that most of the users here enjoy.


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## eggy in a bready (Nov 16, 2018)

Demiurge said:


> I'm not really interested in _going there_ on this, but isn't cultural appropriation pretty high on the current "bad things that white people do" list?


well, there is that whole imperial colonialism thing


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## narad (Nov 17, 2018)

vilk said:


> However, I guess I disagree that it's insulting by nature. Now maybe I'm not capable of understanding because of my own white privilege? But as a fellow Oubei-jin, narad, have you ever felt offended by the many ways that the Japanese appropriate Western culture? I haven't. I've thought it was silly and inaccurate (as it often is), but I never felt like _these people are attacking me_. Because they aren't. They're just being Japanese; it has nothing to do with me. In today's day and age we have developed a sort of culture of victimhood. It began with minorities who were _actual_ victims of _real_ racism, but it has been appropriated  by virtually everyone at this point, even white billionaire presidents. Now that is a subject that actually _is_ related to the concept of cultural appropriation as a social infraction. But I digress.



Well, not insulting by nature, but in context. I mean, I think you have to admit that if you were a native american grandma who had tried to keep the traditions alive and kind of fought a losing battle to do so, against a lot of american government policy and business practices, it would be insulting to see a headdress in situations like Coachella blonde bimbo, or .. as the emblem of the oil company that ran a pipeline through your reservation. But to me it's not as big a thing as "cultural appropriation", so I basically agree with it not being a thing in many ways -- just that people should be considerate of culture when they decide to make use of a cultural symbol in a way that may be insulting.

I don't think getting a PhD in native american history and culture, and understanding the significance of something like a headdress, makes it any less insulting to wear it in a context like a fashion accessory at Coachella.

And nah, naturally I'm not offended by the huge amount of cultural "absorption" that goes on in Japan. I live in Yoyogi -- you gotta love those rockabilly dancers. 

I'm sure you guys probably came across this at some point?
https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/08/02/japanese-birthday-party_a_23061529/


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## BrailleDecibel (Nov 17, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> You know when your mom would drag you to church, and there would be people who went WAY harder for Jesus than the other church goers?
> 
> They were new recent converts. They felt like they had to make up for lost Jesus and “prove” that they are really born again. You know to avoid a lake of fire and brimstone.
> 
> ...


/THREAD.


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## InHiding (Nov 26, 2018)

It’s easy for me to read people soemtimes. Immediately when I saw this whore back in the 80’s I knew she was fucking insane, should be locked up.


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## Drew (Nov 26, 2018)

Please. She may have highly questionable political views, but that's hardly the same as having sex with people for money!!


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## PunkBillCarson (Nov 26, 2018)

Drew said:


> Please. She may have highly questionable political views, but that's hardly the same as having sex with people for money!!




I mean, at this point, it doesn't really matter, though I will say I've got more respect for a whore than a self-hating ignorant racist piece of shit.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 26, 2018)

That thread title is a mouthful. Nobody really pays attention to her here in Ireland anymore, she used to pull a lot of stunts for media attention but her recent disappearance one was ignored by a lot of people so it's no wonder she's coming out with things like this now.


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## Drew (Nov 27, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> I mean, at this point, it doesn't really matter, though I will say I've got more respect for a whore than a self-hating ignorant racist piece of shit.


To be fair, I do too. Let's not slander all women engaging in the oldest profession with this horrid comparison!


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## MFB (Nov 27, 2018)

Drew said:


> To be fair, I do too. Let's not slander all women engaging in the oldest profession with this horrid comparison!



Whore's ain't in it for the money last I checked (or maybe that's sluts?)


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## spudmunkey (Nov 27, 2018)

MFB said:


> Whore's ain't in it for the money last I checked (or maybe that's sluts?)



No, you're definitely thinking about sluts.


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## MFB (Nov 27, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> No, you're definitely thinking about sluts.



You find me a time when I'm not, and I'll show you someone that's not me!


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## narad (Nov 29, 2018)

Set that one up nicely haha


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## Jeff (Dec 5, 2018)

Reminds me of the Dave Chapelle character, the blind black man that hates black people.


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## Azathoth43 (Jan 15, 2019)

All this Marxist, post-modernist bull shit is going to be the ruination of western civilization. You guys just think you want that but when you get it, and you will, there will be a whole lot of regret.


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