# NGD - Daemoness Cimmerian



## frogman81

Hi everyone, to sum it up I've received my Daemoness after a 5 year, 5 month wait (May 2014-October 2019) and I'm disappointed with it. It plays nice, sounds good, and looks cool across the room, but the fit and finish just aren't what I was expecting. I've waited a week to think it over, took it to a guitar shop for another opinion, and just emailed Barnes my thoughts. I'll try to follow up with whether we can try to come to an agreement that makes me feel better about the situation. 

I'll try to just let the photos do the talking (haven't bothered getting my DSLR out yet, just iPhone pics) and anyone who cares can make up their own mind as to how they would feel. 

Here are some pics.










































The main issue is that there is a neck pocket crack, but there are a fair amount of other small things that in isolation wouldn't be a big deal, but all add up to make it not the guitar I was expecting. The first thing I noticed was that there are A LOT of polish marks. I compared it with a couple of other new gloss black guitars at The Twelfth Fret in Toronto today, and they just didn't have marks like this.

How would you feel?


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## MaxOfMetal

Stupid question: if you just took delivery, why are there pictures of this guitar on their Instagram from all the way back in February?


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## AkiraSpectrum

I have no idea how much Daemoness guitars are but I'm assuming they are pricey, especially after a 5+ year wait-time.

If I were you I would be furious. I'd send the guitar back and demand a full refund. If you can walk into a music store right now and get a Squire or budget Ibanez without issues like this than this is unacceptable in my book.

I hope things work out for you.

Is it possible the majority of these issues happened in shipping?


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## frogman81

MaxOfMetal said:


> Stupid question: if you just took delivery, why are there pictures of this guitar on their Instagram from all the way back in February?



I don’t think that’s a stupid question. I got the email that it was ready September 18th. As to what it was waiting for all that time, I believe it was setup and control cavity art.


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## KnightBrolaire

frogman81 said:


> Hi everyone, to sum it up I've received my Daemoness after a 5 year, 5 month wait (May 2014-October 2019) and I'm disappointed with it. It plays nice, sounds good, and looks cool across the room, but the fit and finish just aren't what I was expecting. I've waited a week to think it over, took it to a guitar shop for another opinion, and just emailed Barnes my thoughts. I'll try to follow up with whether we can try to come to an agreement that makes me feel better about the situation.
> 
> I'll try to just let the photos do the talking (haven't bothered getting my DSLR out yet, just iPhone pics) and anyone who cares can make up their own mind as to how they would feel.
> 
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> The main issue is that there is a neck pocket crack, but there are a fair amount of other small things that in isolation wouldn't be a big deal, but all add up to make it not the guitar I was expecting. The first thing I noticed was that there are A LOT of polish marks. I compared it with a couple of other new gloss black guitars at The Twelfth Fret in Toronto today, and they just didn't have marks like this.
> 
> How would you feel?


strange, dylan is usually very very thorough with his fit/finish work from what I've seen. Speaking from my own experience it's pretty hard to completely remove polish marks and scratches in black gloss finishes, though it depends on the polish/clear coat used. Thicker clear coats give you more leeway with polishing since you don't risk burning through with a machine buffer. Most production guitars get a thick poly coating of some sort, and I'm pretty sure dylan doesn't use poly. 
Is that the only spot with black paint bleeding onto the green? I could forgive it if that's the case since it's a difficult effect to do really well, especially on contours.


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## MaxOfMetal

frogman81 said:


> I don’t think that’s a stupid question. I got the email that it was ready September 18th. As to what it was waiting for all that time, I believe it was setup and control cavity art.



Weird. A lot of what's wrong looks like poor storage/use. There are all kinds of pictures of it, perhaps it was damaged in the process. 

Again, it's so odd that it would be hanging around for half a year. The body was finished almost a full year prior. 

I'd be very interested in an explanation if and when you get one.


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## jco5055

Are the pics broken for anyone else? The carbon fiber m2m thread is the same issue for me. I'm not on mobile so I don't know if those on mobile can see it?


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## frogman81

jco5055 said:


> Are the pics broken for anyone else? The carbon fiber m2m thread is the same issue for me. I'm not on mobile so I don't know if those on mobile can see it?


Yeah I just realised this. I thought imgur worked still. Can someone tell me which site to share from?


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## ikarus

I would be so pissed. 5 years, multiple thousand euros and flaws like you would expect from Ibanez Gio or something.

The third picture looks horrible, just like a homebuild. How can something like that leave the shop?

For anyone who can not see the pics: hit the reply button and let them load. then you can exit the thread and visit it again and then they are visible.


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## dhgrind

Jesus that looks like it went thru the ringer. Sorry that’s the shape it came to you in. Def contact them and don’t accept it as is. I’m still waiting on even doing a Skype call with them. If my guitar showed up like that I’d probably have a mini meltdown.

also I’m surprised it came like this given how happy others have been with theirs. Although you can definitely tell that recent Ghost ship V was smacked on a wall during Dylan’s messy showcasing.


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## spudmunkey

frogman81 said:


> Yeah I just realised this. I thought imgur worked still. Can someone tell me which site to share from?



Imgur hasn't work as long as I've been here, unfortunately. 

Photobucket is also huge tire fire.


You can attach them to your post with the "upload a file" button.


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## Thaeon

To me. You paid new money for what amounts to a guitar that looks like its been well used and has some production and finish flaws to boot. That would be a no from me. If it had been just the poor buffing or the hardware on the back, it wouldn't bother me in the least. All of that together? Nope. Not acceptable after 5 1/2 years. Fix it promptly or refund.


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## wedge_destroyer

spudmunkey said:


> Imgur hasn't work as long as I've been here, unfortunately.
> 
> Photobucket is also huge tire fire.
> 
> 
> You can attach them to your post with the "upload a file" button.



Imgbb may be an option not tried it here works other places.

Yea if i paid too price, id be so hot under the collar, my shirt would catch fire.


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## jco5055

I'm interested to see Dylan's response, here's hoping he's not another luthier you need to remove from the "good" list.


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## technomancer

Wow that is just sad


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## MSS

I would be so disappointed. Maybe the crack happened during shipping?


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## arasys

Compared to other Daemoness guitars, it almost looks like Dylan gave specs to a random Chinese luthier when you look at the fretboard, and paint.. 

If you keep that guitar (ignoring the cosmetic flaws) a potentially cracked neck will leave a bad taste in your mouth to say the least..

5+ years is a long wait, and there's absolutely no way I would accept it after spending tons of money.. I can't imagine how you feel because ordering a custom guitar is definitely not stress-free until you receive what you want. When I received mine, I was little bummed about the chipped headstock during delivery. But that was fixed before even I opened the case for the first time, and guitar is perfect except for that fixed tiny chip (3 mm long).


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## mastapimp

What a bummer...if you can't work out a compromise, send it back for a full refund. Those issues shouldn't be on a guitar of this price-tag and build time. It's a shame because, from afar, that guitar looks killer. Good luck!


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## Wolfhorsky

Damn, i feel Your pain. I would be veery frustrated. That paintjob is worse than my garage paintjobs  Why the hell that neck pocket is painted?


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## electriceye

Pics, or I don’t believe you!

All joking aside, who the hell makes a customer wait FIVE YEARS for a fucking guitar? That’s inexcusable on every level. If you’re a builder and have a waitlist THAT long, you don’t know what you’re doing. On the flip side, who in their right mind would agree to that and plunk down money that far in advance? Seems crazy, either way.

EDIT: On my iPad, I can see the pics if I reply directly to the original post. Couple of things: What the hell took 5 years for that guitar? That finish is a joke. Those green trim lines are something I’d expect from ME, and I don’t know what I’m doing. The polishing is atrocious. The neck pocket crack, INEXCUSABLE. Did they screw up that fret slot and fill it???

Frankly, you got jacked. That’s amateur-level craftsmanship. Even on my PERSONAL builds, I beat myself up over simple mistakes. That finish would lead to a complete strip and re-fin, easily. This build permanently stains Daemoness for me. I’m blown away they sold that to you. It’s B-stock at best. 

How much did you pay for this thing?


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## cip 123

My money goes to the shipping weather changes as the excuse for the neck pocket crack.


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## electriceye

CIP, zoom in on the neck pocket pic. It’s a DISASTER. There are globs of paint and chips!!


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## mlp187

Dear god... I'd send it back and ask for a refund.


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## MoJoToJo

How the hell could you wait five years for a guitar you must have the patience of a saint! 
That is just ridiculous nothing should take that long to build if it does they don't deserve to be in business.
You could fly to the moon & back before they build a guitar probably for the same price as this mob charges.
Rant Over.


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## Steinmetzify

Wow.....I gotta admit, I'm shocked here. I've never seen anything but great builds from Dylan and never seen even one unhappy customer. 

I can't believe it left the shop like that.


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## cip 123

electriceye said:


> CIP, zoom in on the neck pocket pic. It’s a DISASTER. There are globs of paint and chips!!


It's not the neck pocket I'm worried about, more so because that's obviously got flaws.

I was more wondering why it seemed green in one build pic but not the final but it's probably conductive paint, I wasn't thinking. Was just wondering if something else had been covered up.


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## IbanezDaemon

That's the first time I've ever seen anything from Daemoness that hasn't been flawless. Strange how those polish swirls were overlooked. Is the neck pocket crack an actual crack or a crack in the lacquer. Most bolt on guitars I've ever owned have lacquer cracks in the neck pocket, they shouldn't be on a new guitar though and I'd hazard a guess that it may have happened during shipping.


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## sezna

Yeah, something weird is going on with this build. Never seen finish scratches like that on a new guitar before. I wouldn't be satisfied either, and given his reputation I'm sure as soon as Dylan sees those pics he will help you out.


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## Soya

electriceye said:


> Pics, or I don’t believe you!
> 
> All joking aside, who the hell makes a customer wait FIVE YEARS for a fucking guitar? That’s inexcusable on every level. If you’re a builder and have a waitlist THAT long, you don’t know what you’re doing. On the flip side, who in their right mind would agree to that and plunk down money that far in advance? Seems crazy, either way.
> 
> EDIT: On my iPad, I can see the pics if I reply directly to the original post. Couple of things: What the hell took 5 years for that guitar? That finish is a joke. Those green trim lines are something I’d expect from ME, and I don’t know what I’m doing. The polishing is atrocious. The neck pocket crack, INEXCUSABLE. Did they screw up that fret slot and fill it???
> 
> Frankly, you got jacked. That’s amateur-level craftsmanship. Even on my PERSONAL builds, I beat myself up over simple mistakes. That finish would lead to a complete strip and re-fin, easily. This build permanently stains Daemoness for me. I’m blown away they sold that to you. It’s B-stock at best.
> 
> How much did you pay for this thing?


Jesus man, less cocaine next time you're internetting.


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## narad

I'm shocked. As a guy that's stood by Dylan and generally loves everything he's trying to accomplish with his shop, I'd be inclined to blame things out of their control -- weather, shipping damage, asshole custom inspectors, etc. But this just seems like too many different types of problems to find such possible excuses. Really saddens me if this left the shop this way.

Did you ping Dylan as soon as you opened it up?


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## electriceye

Soya said:


> Jesus man, less cocaine next time you're internetting.



Why? Because I find what happened to be absurd?


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## AkiraSpectrum

narad said:


> I'm shocked. As a guy that's stood by Dylan and generally loves everything he's trying to accomplish with his shop, I'd be inclined to blame things out of their control -- weather, shipping damage, asshole custom inspectors, etc. But this just seems like too many different types of problems to find such possible excuses. Really saddens me if this left the shop this way.
> 
> Did you ping Dylan as soon as you opened it up?



Yeah I was thinking (on top of just potential shipping damage) that if Customs inspectors opened it up they may have dropped it or banged it or something.


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## electriceye

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Yeah I was thinking (on top of just potential shipping damage) that if Customs inspectors opened it up they may have dropped it or banged it or something.



Did either of you bother to actually look at the pics? Look at the mess around the neck pocket (not just the crack). Look at the poorly-taped green pinstriping. Look at the bad polishing job. Look at the uneven string ferrule block. Literally none of that has anything to do with shipping damage.


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## narad

electriceye said:


> Did either of you bother to actually look at the pics? Look at the mess around the neck pocket (not just the crack). Look at the poorly-taped green pinstriping. Look at the bad polishing job. Look at the uneven string ferrule block. Literally none of that has anything to do with shipping damage.



Did you bother to actually read my post. Literally none of that stands counter to what I said.


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## frogman81

Thanks for the replies everyone. It surprisingly makes me feel better when strangers on the internet say they're sorry that this has happened. I told Barnes that I want to return it for a refund. I'll see if I can get some better pics tomorrow, and more fully document the issues. I think the main reason that I feel more disappointment than anger is that Dylan is just such a nice guy. I visited his shop back in 2014-2015? and he was great. Different (chain mail bracelet), but very well-mannered and kind. I haven't met Barnes but he is very pleasant to correspond with. There were many times in this wait that I got frustrated and almost "lost my cool", but it always seemed around then that there would be an incremental progress update. Don't get me wrong though, this feeling is mostly crushing disappointment. I'm 38 years old. I've spent 25% of my adult life waiting for this guitar, and told the story about it and Daemoness to countless people. This experience has surely changed me.



KnightBrolaire said:


> strange, dylan is usually very very thorough with his fit/finish work from what I've seen. Speaking from my own experience it's pretty hard to completely remove polish marks and scratches in black gloss finishes, though it depends on the polish/clear coat used. Thicker clear coats give you more leeway with polishing since you don't risk burning through with a machine buffer. Most production guitars get a thick poly coating of some sort, and I'm pretty sure dylan doesn't use poly.
> Is that the only spot with black paint bleeding onto the green? I could forgive it if that's the case since it's a difficult effect to do really well, especially on contours.



I can double check since we finalized the specs 3 years ago, but I'm pretty sure Dylan uses/recommends polyurethane finishes on his guitars. This was an update from using Nitrocellulose on his early builds. The masking job on the horns is generally bad and I just snapped one pic as an example. The main body masking is ok.



MaxOfMetal said:


> Weird. A lot of what's wrong looks like poor storage/use. There are all kinds of pictures of it, perhaps it was damaged in the process.
> 
> Again, it's so odd that it would be hanging around for half a year. The body was finished almost a full year prior.
> 
> I'd be very interested in an explanation if and when you get one.



I noticed the polish marks(?) on the back at first, and thought it was play wear. Then I had a closer look and realized the marks are on the ENTIRE body, down to the horns, in various patterns. That lead me to believe it was from the buffing process, which the tech from The Twelfth Fret today seemed to agree with.



wedge_destroyer said:


> Yea if i paid too price, id be so hot under the collar, my shirt would catch fire.



I'm mostly disappointed, but I hear you.



Wolfhorsky said:


> Damn, i feel Your pain. I would be veery frustrated. That paintjob is worse than my garage paintjobs  Why the hell that neck pocket is painted?



EXACTLY!. The pic of the painted neck pocket is over a year old now, and at the time my faith in Daemoness was intact and I never even thought about the fact that no guitar I've ever seen outside of a Sears catalog level beginner guitar has paint in the neck pocket.



electriceye said:


> Did they screw up that fret slot and fill it???
> 
> How much did you pay for this thing?



I have no idea what happened to the 9th fret, but your guess is about the only thing I can come up with. I looks like the fret was installed 1/16" off, then pulled and replaced, but they just left the staining of the glue? I really don't know. The guitar cost 3714 USD. Shipping was another 443 USD, and customs/taxes were (thankfully) not terrible at 480 USD.



cip 123 said:


> My money goes to the shipping weather changes as the excuse for the neck pocket crack.



This is entirely possible. The tech at the store today brought up how it looked like someone tried to sand out the crack. This is shown fairly clearly in the pic below.









electriceye said:


> CIP, zoom in on the neck pocket pic. It’s a DISASTER. There are globs of paint and chips!!





MoJoToJo said:


> How the hell could you wait five years for a guitar you must have the patience of a saint!



The thing is, once you put down your deposit, you really don't have a choice. The deposit is non-refundable so you can forfeit the 500 GBP if you really want out.



cip 123 said:


> It's not the neck pocket I'm worried about, more so because that's obviously got flaws.
> 
> I was more wondering why it seemed green in one build pic but not the final but it's probably conductive paint, I wasn't thinking. Was just wondering if something else had been covered up.



The pickup cavity was supposed to be slime green, as shown in the build pic. Then, it arrived with the green cavity unceremoniously covered up with that black shielding paint. Part of the green is still showing in one location. This bothers me since the green pickup cavity is one thing I really loved about the original "Old School Cimmerian" that this is based off of. Could the shielding paint have been left out? Or shielded first then painted green? Or just tell me it's a bad idea so I'm not expecting a guitar with a green pickup cavity. Lastly the cavity is currently black, covered in a fine dust. I speculate that this fine dust is from the buffing process.



IbanezDaemon said:


> That's the first time I've ever seen anything from Daemoness that hasn't been flawless. Strange how those polish swirls were overlooked. Is the neck pocket crack an actual crack or a crack in the lacquer. Most bolt on guitars I've ever owned have lacquer cracks in the neck pocket, they shouldn't be on a new guitar though and I'd hazard a guess that it may have happened during shipping.



I have been telling myself it's just a finish crack. For what it's worth, the tech that looked at it today felt otherwise (old long graying hair dude with classical guitar finger nails at the most reputable shop in Toronto). He felt that it looked like a crack in the wood body. The crack can be felt quite easily.



sezna said:


> Yeah, something weird is going on with this build. Never seen finish scratches like that on a new guitar before. I wouldn't be satisfied either, and given his reputation I'm sure as soon as Dylan sees those pics he will help you out.



Hopefully.



narad said:


> I'm shocked. As a guy that's stood by Dylan and generally loves everything he's trying to accomplish with his shop, I'd be inclined to blame things out of their control -- weather, shipping damage, asshole custom inspectors, etc. But this just seems like too many different types of problems to find such possible excuses. Really saddens me if this left the shop this way.
> 
> Did you ping Dylan as soon as you opened it up?





AkiraSpectrum said:


> Yeah I was thinking (on top of just potential shipping damage) that if Customs inspectors opened it up they may have dropped it or banged it or something.



The guitar was packed incredibly well (with a hefty shipping price tag to match). It arrived in an unopened box, inside of which was the case, wrapped in several layers of thick bubble wrap. It was ready to go to war and back, and appeared untampered with. I opened it Thursday, and wrote to Dylan (well, Barnes actually since he seems to handle all the correspondence now) today.


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## c7spheres

frogman81 said:


> How would you feel?



I would feel pretty let down if I got this. The neck pocket crack could be from shipping but the rest wouldn't be. Customs didn't physically inspect this unless your package has special tape on it. They use special tape to repackage the actual physical instepctions that tell you it was physically inspected, which is less than 2% of all imported packages. That being said, if you do have that tape on in and the invoice indicates somethign to the effect of personal effects or not for resale or sample etc, then customs has the right to deteriorate the value as they see fit based on description and value listed. I doubt the paper work would be like this. If I had to guess I would say that the crack was from shipping damage and the other issues were due to it missing a quality contorl check or final fninishing process like buffing etc. , even the pinstriping etc could have just been overlooked and a final finish process may not have been done. I never got a guitar from them/him, but I can't see them sending it out like this without an oversight of some sort. 
I would certainly make them aware of it immediately and give them the first offer to resolve the issue and see if that's acceptable to you or not. If I took it to my tech to fix all this stuff regarding the crack and do a refinish it would probably cost in the $1k range to fix, give or take a couple hundred. If I was in your position I'd personally want them to pay shipping back and forth again and redo it with a front of the line priority in mind, especially after such a wait. I'd stick to that over a cash refund because even with a perfect fix and refinish the value is still diminished on the overall instrument. For a cash refund I'd want probably around $2k back to cover the fix, refinish and diminished value, especially now that everyone will know about this guitar. The best thing woul be to have them rebuild the entire body for you and refinish it with proiority status, assuming that's actually a crack. It could just be a finish crack, which what it looks like to me.


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## Spicypickles

*no experience prior*

there is something odd going on for sure. You have a guitar built by a guy that is dead set on the highest quality possible, that has churned out nothing but guitars of that ilk, until now (it seems). I probably would have hit him up before posting up publicly about issues, but I understand the disappointment, especially after a 5 year wait.


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## ramses

Am I the only one who cannot see any pictures?


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## MaxOfMetal

Spicypickles said:


> *no experience prior*
> 
> there is something odd going on for sure. You have a guitar built by a guy that is dead set on the highest quality possible, that has churned out nothing but guitars of that ilk, until now (it seems). I probably would have hit him up before posting up publicly about issues, but I understand the disappointment, especially after a 5 year wait.



Eh, it's a service to the community posting honest experiences like this.


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## narad

ramses said:


> Am I the only one who cannot see any pictures?



It's the usual imgur thing. Click reply on the OP post, they should load in your reply. Then just refresh the page and the pics should appear properly in the OP post.


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## Spicypickles

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, it's a service to the community posting honest experiences like this.



Of course, I’m not suggesting anything cloak and dagger, especially given this boards track record. 

Personally I just would have tried to get an answer and response before blasting it out, then posted the NGD with the pro/neg response.


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## frogman81

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, it's a service to the community posting honest experiences like this.



Thanks brother.


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## ramses

narad said:


> It's the usual imgur thing. Click reply on the OP post, they should load in your reply. Then just refresh the page and the pics should appear properly in the OP post.



Yeah, did that a moment ago assuming that I would at least get links to the pictures.

I'm surprised by these images. They are completely unexpected taking into account all the other detailed pictures that I've seen from Daemoness.


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## c7spheres

The good knews I guess is everyone has only seemed to hear and see good stuff come out of Daemoness Guitars so it's not like you're dealing with Sims or Roman etc. I've dealt with both of them and it's no picnic. I don't know Dylan but I've only heard of positive experiences. I would say to just stay calm and be reasonable. I probably would have done all this behind the scenes and waited for a final outcome though before posting my full experience.


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## MaxOfMetal

Spicypickles said:


> Of course, I’m not suggesting anything cloak and dagger, especially given this boards track record.
> 
> Personally I just would have tried to get an answer and response before blasting it out, then posted the NGD with the pro/neg response.



I understand where you're coming from, but I still fully support making the entire process public. 

It offers a higher level of accountability, and helps those who, regardless of the builder's response, rather not engage with a situation such as this. 

Like you said, _as far as we know_ this is the first real big "oops" by this builder, but as that implies this just may be the first to come forward at this juncture.


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## Spicypickles

Fair enough. 

I would definitely be pissed for sure, especially given the long wait for a damned simple guitar, compared to his others. Hope you get your fair retribution OP


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## prlgmnr

Well, that looks a fucking state and no mistake.

Enough to make me think about writing off my 600 quid that's for sure.


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## 77zark77

Maybe that guitar was done 4 years ago and someone else played it - if this can help


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## Mechanos71

Hey @frogman81 this is not the first time of me hearing about this polish swirling issue. One of the dudes who was in my same build lot messaged me on Facebook about it for his build asking me if I had same issue and I told him no. He had the twin blue and pink cimmerians. I was also supposed to snap him a photo of my build to confirm but I forgot. He lives in Ecuador but I doubt shipping/handling had anything to do with the issues. Honestly I think Daemoness has mastered the art of not photographing their mistakes. There is a little niggle of paint splatter on my guitar that must have happened post lacquer that have stayed quiet about/let go and none of the photos of it show it. That said for the fit and finish of the end product and the time and money expenditure, I personally don’t think a Daemoness is worth it right now. The used bwgc I recently acquired though makes me think that some luthiers are worth the hassle. Though there seems to be entirely too much bs in custom guitar manufacture.

Apologies for the digression. I hope Dylan and Barnes take care of you. I honestly am not shocked by what happened in this instance, but definitely am disappointed knowing what happened to me and the homey weren’t isolated incidents...


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## AkiraSpectrum

electriceye said:


> Did either of you bother to actually look at the pics? Look at the mess around the neck pocket (not just the crack). Look at the poorly-taped green pinstriping. Look at the bad polishing job. Look at the uneven string ferrule block. Literally none of that has anything to do with shipping damage.



My comment wasn't meant to account for all the errors with the instrument, simply, some of the damage could be attributed to mis-handling by Customs, shipping, environmental changes, etc.

Without question a number of the issues would appear to be clear build-quality issues.

I'm not sure why you need to be rude about this. (at least this is the tone I'm getting from your statement).


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## frogman81

Mechanos71 said:


> Hey @frogman81 this is not the first time of me hearing about this polish swirling issue. One of the dudes who was in my same build lot messaged me on Facebook about it for his build asking me if I had same issue and I told him no. He had the twin blue and pink cimmerians. I was also supposed to snap him a photo of my build to confirm but I forgot. He lives in Ecuador but I doubt shipping/handling had anything to do with the issues. Honestly I think Daemoness has mastered the art of not photographing their mistakes. There is a little niggle of paint splatter on my guitar that must have happened post lacquer that have stayed quiet about/let go and none of the photos of it show it. That said for the fit and finish of the end product and the time and money expenditure, I personally don’t think a Daemoness is worth it right now. The used bwgc I recently acquired though makes me think that some luthiers are worth the hassle. Though there seems to be entirely too much bs in custom guitar manufacture.
> 
> Apologies for the digression. I hope Dylan and Barnes take care of you. I honestly am not shocked by what happened in this instance, but definitely am disappointed knowing what happened to me and the homey weren’t isolated incidents...



Thanks for sharing your perspective, Mechanos.


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## Frostbite

Honestly, my jaw dropped when I saw the finish swirls. You had basically the same reaction I'd have. Like obviously I'd be mad but just the shear level of disappointment would be so high. The level where you just stare at it wondering "Can I fix this? Do I bring it up to the builder?".


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## jephjacques

Woof, I would be heartbroken in your situation. Hopefully it can all get sorted out, and soon.


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## Lorcan Ward

Damn, sorry to see this on a guitar you waited so long for. Hopefully you get sorted quickly.


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## R34CH

Going to try and phrase my words carefully but do we have an idea of what the workload breakdown is like at Daemoness? How much touch time does Dylan have on guitars that don't require crazy finish work or inlays?

For "conservatively" spec'd builds, it seems reasonable that most of the work is done by Barnes ( or others?).

Not a criticism of anyone at Daemoness AT ALL - they all seem like lovely fellows. Just wondering if anyone knows...


----------



## Blytheryn

While I cannot speak for swirling issue I feel that it is important to bring up Dylan’s willingness to make things right.

When I received my Chronicler from its previous owner the nut had been tampered with and somehow melted on one side. Furthermore in transportation due to the climate difference between Italy and Sweden some small gaps and cracks between the binding and fretboard had occurred. I messaged Dylan about this and asked what I should do. He offered to do to the repairs for me free of charge to restore it to an as new condition as possible despite the fact that the guitar did not leave the shop with these issues. I travelled to Bristol early in early 2018 and he took care of the matter, filling the cracks, cutting a new graphite nut, and even making a new truss rod cover with that cool laser engraved plastic stuff they use now.


I’m sure he’ll sort you out, regardless of how you decide to proceed.


----------



## metalstrike

Sorry that you had to wait over 5 years for this! I’d be furious. Daemoness has built some amazing guitars over the years but this is an embarrassment. I’d demand a refund.

Good luck getting it sorted out.


----------



## frogman81

I’ve heard back from Barnes and he and Dylan are eager to come to a resolution. I’ll update as things progress.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

frogman81 said:


> I’ve heard back from Barnes and he and Dylan are eager to come to a resolution. I’ll update as things progress.



That's good news man. I'm sure things will be worked out.


----------



## pastanator

wow. that uh...that guitar sucks. good to hear its getting worked out tho


----------



## ikarus

I even think a refund is not enough. You waited 5 years, you are looking forward to it all this time, you see all these guys getting their perfect damoness guitars,...


----------



## jco5055

Good that they want to make this right, but I’m confused how it even got to this state in the first place. Like this is not even close to the stereotypical “extremely tiny nitpick only this forum would notice” , this looks like a contest for which high end luthier can make the shittiest guitar


----------



## spudmunkey

ikarus said:


> I even think a refund is not enough. You waited 5 years, you are looking forward to it all this time, you see all these guys getting their perfect damoness guitars,...



Outside of the US, is getting anything beyond making someone "whole" (and a refund would be considered just as valid as getting the guitar he paid for) a thing?


----------



## possumkiller

Is it just me or are the pictures broken?


----------



## cip 123

possumkiller said:


> Is it just me or are the pictures broken?


Hit reply on the OP, they load in your comment and then reload the page. They'll load in the OP.


----------



## Viginez

R34CH said:


> Going to try and phrase my words carefully but do we have an idea of what the workload breakdown is like at Daemoness? How much touch time does Dylan have on guitars that don't require crazy finish work or inlays?
> 
> For "conservatively" spec'd builds, it seems reasonable that most of the work is done by Barnes ( or others?).
> 
> Not a criticism of anyone at Daemoness AT ALL - they all seem like lovely fellows. Just wondering if anyone knows...


that was my first initial thought too. while they are busy doing crazy inlays, others build the "basic" stuff.
because it's not only the swirls, the entire build is a bit messy and suspicious.
or it was built longer ago and was displayed/heavily used at the shop or by someone else.


----------



## oracles

R34CH said:


> Going to try and phrase my words carefully but do we have an idea of what the workload breakdown is like at Daemoness? How much touch time does Dylan have on guitars that don't require crazy finish work or inlays?
> 
> For "conservatively" spec'd builds, it seems reasonable that most of the work is done by Barnes ( or others?).



That shouldn't, and in my mind, doesn't matter or factor into it. At 5yrs, and the cost involved, be it a conservative build or one loaded with intricacies, if you're going to be a custom shop in this day and age, then there's zero excuse for a guitar to leave the shop in the condition that OP's guitar did. It doesn't matter if Dylan did everything himself or if someone else in the shop did, the standard has been set and *any* stage of QC should've caught this before it went out. Dylan may not have had a hand on this thing at any stage of its life, but his name is attached to it and Daemoness output is low enough that they can absolutely spend the time to do final QC irrespective of how small their operation is. The internet is a fickle bitch, and everyone remembers your mistakes more than your successes. It only takes a small number of builds to be less than perfect for lasting damage to be done to a brand. 

I'd be livid if I'd waited that long and received that product. 

OP, hopefully you get a solution worked out quickly.


----------



## spudmunkey

The lion's share of the time, though, is waiting for him to be able to start, no? The waiting list? I just ordered some cabinetry that had 8-week leadtime...but it's not started to be built yet.


----------



## R34CH

oracles said:


> That shouldn't, and in my mind, doesn't matter or factor into it



I completely agree with you. My comment wasn't looking for an excuse but more just generally wondering what the work breakdown is like. Obviously, any guitar with the Daemoness name on it also has Dylan's name on it regardless of how much actual touch time he had.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

Your reaction is entirely justified - honestly speaking it makes me nervous having been on the wait list for 3 years now. I'm glad Dylan and Barnes are proactively looking to help resolve this, I'd be crushed if flaws of that nature and quantity were present on any new guitar of mine, let alone a Daemoness.


----------



## frogman81

Ok I said I would post more pics and I wanted to try without imgur so here goes. Would like to document this process.

Neck pocket crack




2. Polish swirls/marks







(More swirls and not sure why the neck bolts have to be so ghetto like they came out of a drawer of used furniture hardware)




Humbucker cavity was supposed to be slime green like the neck pickup cavity in the original Old School Cimmerian. But it came out like this.




Ghost of the 9th fret




Bridge backing plate alignment


----------



## frogman81

Masking lines aren't great









Why is the neck pocket painted?




Strange tool mark/paint drip that runs around heel







Just a lot of tool marks on the binding.


----------



## c7spheres

Dude, Wtf! Did someone highjack your real Daemoness and substitute this in it's place or something? I'm baffeled beyond belief. Sorry you're dealing with this and hope you reach a resolution and end up fully satisifed in the end with your experience. Something is just really bizzare about this to me. It's almost as if it was made to be distressed or something.


----------



## Humbuck

Bummer. I waited 5 years for a guitar once too, and it similarly let me way down for a variety of reasons that were not present in another example of this particular luthier's build that I played. Fortunately I sold it for exactly what I paid somehow. Got lucky there.


----------



## dhgrind

Swear looks like you got bamboozled and that’s not even the real guitar


----------



## broj15

Yeah it looks like this guitar was disassembled/reassembled a few times, or was like shop guitar or floor model guitar for multiple years or something. I mean the masking issues is one thing, but the neck pocket crack and subsequent finish chipping and the edge of the fretboard almost make it look like this guitar was taken on tour or something.


----------



## narad

frogman81 said:


> Ghost of the 9th fret



New prog band name acquired.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

broj15 said:


> Yeah it looks like this guitar was disassembled/reassembled a few times, or was like shop guitar or floor model guitar for multiple years or something. I mean the masking issues is one thing, but the neck pocket crack and subsequent finish chipping and the edge of the fretboard almost make it look like this guitar was taken on tour or something.



This is my take as well. 

If you look at their Instagram this guitar was pretty much built at least in February of this year, but the body had its first* finish around October of last year. 

*If you look at the October 18' picture of the body, and then the next picture of the guitar in May of 19' it looks like it was refinished, or touched up. 

I'd be willing to bet that this guitar got damaged at some point and then was hastily repaired/put back together to get out the door.

All the issues are time/attention to detail related. The stuff that goes out the window when trying to get stuff done as soon as possible. The poor masking, the tool marks, etc.


----------



## ikarus

Are we sure this is a legit Daemoness?


----------



## prlgmnr

ikarus said:


> Are we sure this is a legit Daemoness?


Let's play a round of "Daemoness or Aliexpress?"


----------



## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo

Soya said:


> Jesus man, less cocaine next time you're internetting.



Don't tell me how to live my life!


----------



## Pat

God that looks awful - I paid £450 for a Mexican made Jackson that looks better than this. 100% you should send this back and get a refund/rebuild. I wouldn't even accept the same body if the offered to refinish it - the whole thing looks shoddy.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

This is so out of keeping with the brand and their standards and attention to detail. I received a Cimmerian in the post yesterday and it's just an immaculate build in every sense.


----------



## Pat

IbanezDaemon said:


> This is so out of keeping with the brand and their standards and attention to detail. I received a Cimmerian in the post yesterday and it's just an immaculate build in every sense.


Yeah, absolutely it looks like a one off, everything I've seen from them is always fantastic, I don't think I've ever heard a bad review.


----------



## Viginez

i'd just take the full refund. no way i'm waiting (another possible couple of years?) for a full rebuild.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Pat said:


> Yeah, absolutely it looks like a one off, everything I've seen from them is always fantastic, I don't think I've ever heard a bad review.



It's been a really unfortunate turn of events for the OP. Truly sorry that the guitar arrived with the flaws. It will be put right I'm sure. I'm gonna hold off posting my NGD thread cos the timing is all wrong for that.


----------



## possumkiller

Wow. That needs to be burned as a sacrifice to the gods of luthiery.


----------



## MSS

I wonder if one of the employees “borrowed” it. That looks like a well used/abused guitar or.. a fake.


----------



## Nick

I'd expect to be moved to the top of the list for a replacement build at the very least as well as an offer of a refund. I think they legally have to refund you within 30 days in the eu for online purchases, there is deffinetly some sort of consumer protection law that you should look up just in case.


----------



## frogman81

I spoke with Dylan and Barnes this morning. Dylan took responsibility and was very apologetic. They offered a front-of-the-line rebuild or a refund. I’m planning to take the refund, but still have to confirm. It seems to me like a case of “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”


----------



## Blytheryn

frogman81 said:


> I spoke with Dylan and Barnes this morning. Dylan took responsibility and was very apologetic. They offered a front-of-the-line rebuild or a refund. I’m planning to take the refund, but still have to confirm. It seems to me like a case of “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”



I’m glad you were able to get this sorted out. Would you be sending the guitar back in that case?


----------



## Albake21

I think I'd just take the refund and go elsewhere. If it were me and I took the rebuild, even if it was immaculate, I'd still have a sour taste there. Curious to see what you choose as I'm sure the rebuild will be built perfectly.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

frogman81 said:


> I spoke with Dylan and Barnes this morning. Dylan took responsibility and was very apologetic. They offered a front-of-the-line rebuild or a refund. I’m planning to take the refund, but still have to confirm. It seems to me like a case of “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”



You're going to be second guessing yourself a bunch, but just know, you're totally making the right call. 

From the sounds of it, bar this shit not happening from the get go, Dylan and crew seem to be handling this as they should. While it's a little early to celebrate, good on them. That already puts them in the top tier of builders: humility.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

frogman81 said:


> I spoke with Dylan and Barnes this morning. Dylan took responsibility and was very apologetic. They offered a front-of-the-line rebuild or a refund. I’m planning to take the refund, but still have to confirm. It seems to me like a case of “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”



Definitely sad for sure, but this is pretty much the response I was expecting; so that's good to see. I'm glad they were eager to help and it sounds like the solutions offered were appropriate.
That being said, I definitely agree with @Albake21 and would likely opt for the refund. Although I'm sure the rebuild would be on par with what we've come to expect from Daemoness, this mess will haunt you and it'll leave a sour taste. Maybe another time. I'm so sorry dude; I can't imagine how gutted you must feel after that wait.


----------



## Thaeon

frogman81 said:


> I spoke with Dylan and Barnes this morning. Dylan took responsibility and was very apologetic. They offered a front-of-the-line rebuild or a refund. I’m planning to take the refund, but still have to confirm. It seems to me like a case of “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”



They’re offering the right thing. It’s the right thing for you and the right thing for their business as well. Better to accept responsibility and make it right than to fight it. There are other luthiers out there that do great work. I know it isn’t what you were hoping for. But the options are there. I’m waiting on my own custom. It’s hard not to feel a little apprehension seeing your story unfold, but good luthiers generally have a good reputation for a reason. I hope your guitar was a rare occasion where the ball was dropped and it seems to be so. I’d take the refund and a month or two to clear your head. Then look at what you might want.


----------



## Mechanos71

frogman81 said:


> I spoke with Dylan and Barnes this morning. Dylan took responsibility and was very apologetic. They offered a front-of-the-line rebuild or a refund. I’m planning to take the refund, but still have to confirm. It seems to me like a case of “fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.”


 Take the money and run!!!! If I remember when I get home Saturday I’ll snap a shot of the paint splatter on my guitar. For the people who keep saying there are never problems with a Daemoness, it’s not true this is just clearly the most egregious example of it and people tend to stay quiet.


----------



## possumkiller

Mechanos71 said:


> Take the money and run!!!! If I remember when I get home Saturday I’ll snap a shot of the paint splatter on my guitar. For the people who keep saying there are never problems with a Daemoness, it’s not true this is just clearly the most egregious example of it and people tend to stay quiet.


People keeping quiet is exactly how people like BRJ, Vik and the others are able to rip off so many people.


----------



## oracles

possumkiller said:


> People keeping quiet is exactly how people like BRJ, Vik and the others are able to rip off so many people.



True, but it also tanks resale which is where some peoples concerns truly are. There's a few popular custom shops who regularly put out turds, but no one will speak up about it until after they've already sold it.


----------



## teqnick

Ohh, so that's where Rico Jr. has been hiding. At least the guitar made it out of the factory...

Jokes aside, sorry for the grand disappointment. At least you've been given the next, best-case scenario. Refund and run!


----------



## Nick

What is the timescale for top of the list rebuild put of interest?

Tbh with the amount of money it likely cost you I'd dump about 75% of it into a higher end mayones or suhr and keep the rest as a gift to myself.


----------



## Mechanos71

The paint splatter I was referring to


----------



## prlgmnr

Mechanos71 said:


> View attachment 73916
> The paint splatter I was referring to


Well, if that's the 2nd worst one in existence I think we can all rest extremely easy now.


----------



## jwade

Man, huge huge bummer. I remember seeing this on Instagram and thinking how rad it must be to have a Type O Daemoness. 

This looks to be about the same condition as my ‘98 7621. Super confusing. Was this maybe a new employee being tested out?


----------



## Merrekof

jwade said:


> Was this maybe a new employee being tested out?


This was the first thing I thought about to be honest..


----------



## narad

jwade said:


> Man, huge huge bummer. I remember seeing this on Instagram and thinking how rad it must be to have a Type O Daemoness.
> 
> This looks to be about the same condition as my ‘98 7621. Super confusing. Was this maybe a new employee being tested out?



Not sure that'd make it any better in my mind. You can notice these things within 30 seconds of inspecting the guitar, and it's not like everyone doesn't get to see it in the shop.

Also weird in my mind that the control cavity artwork is really cool. Dylan's a master at this stuff so maybe it doesn't take him long at all to whip it up, but how can the cavity art be so nice, which few people will ever see, and then the masking on the pinstripes be shit? It's just kind of a bizarre situation and I'm really curious what caused it. But as someone considering this color scheme, it has my attention.


----------



## Blytheryn

prlgmnr said:


> Well, if that's the 2nd worst one in existence I think we can all rest extremely easy now.



Crazy nitpicking there... But fair play. You didn’t mention it in your NGD?


----------



## Merrekof

Nitpicking aside, the OP's guitar shouldn't have passed QC. This is something that wouldn't even come out of China with todays standards. 
I can be wrong about this, but is a final setup the last step? If so, someone spent a while setting this "faulty" guitar up so they were well aware that they were gonne ship out a bad product.


----------



## Pat

Mechanos71 said:


> View attachment 73916
> The paint splatter I was referring to


I can't work out what part of the guitar this is?


----------



## possumkiller

Pat said:


> I can't work out what part of the guitar this is?


It's a lonely side dot on the edge of a flame maple neck with a black gloss painted fretless fretboard.


----------



## Mechanos71

possumkiller said:


> It's a lonely side dot on the edge of a flame maple neck with a black gloss painted fretless fretboard.


Lol, it’s the larger horn of the guitar and a side view. And while I did say it was a niggle, it was super annoying mistake for a guitar I waited so long/paid so much for. Like the kind of mistake you don’t find on 1k production guitars. To your point Blytherin, I didn’t mention it in my NGD, because it was a relatively small thing and I didn’t want to start drama. 
Last thing the picture doesn’t capture is that paint is on top of the clear you can feel it. So I am not even sure how it happened.


----------



## noise in my mind

It's early in the morning here so when I first saw that pics I thought it was a guitar you played really hard for the last 5 years. I had no idea it was sent to you this way! I hope you get your money back or something.


----------



## Blytheryn

Mechanos71 said:


> Lol, it’s the larger horn of the guitar and a side view. And while I did say it was a niggle, it was super annoying mistake for a guitar I waited so long/paid so much for. Like the kind of mistake you don’t find on 1k production guitars. To your point Blytherin, I didn’t mention it in my NGD, because it was a relatively small thing and I didn’t want to start drama.
> Last thing the picture doesn’t capture is that paint is on top of the clear you can feel it. So I am not even sure how it happened.



Understood dude.


----------



## Passtheapathy

This topic has me completely reconsidering Daemoness as a “bucket list” guitar for me. I have an Evertuned USA Juggernaut, an Aristides 060SR and was thinking Daemoness is the final “metal axe” mountain to climb. My Juggernaut had a few unacceptable issues that needed correcting. My Aristides is practically flawless, but there are a few things I could nitpick. If Daemoness lets something like this out, I might have to cross it off my list unless I hear a really good reason from Dylan on why this happened. That other post with the black paint splatter is equally scary.


----------



## Lemonbaby

That looks awful - thanks for going public with it. The list if trustworthy luthiers is getting shorter every day...


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Lemonbaby said:


> That looks awful - thanks for going public with it. The list if trustworthy luthiers is getting shorter every day...



Lets not get too squirrely here- and remember that this is a shop that's had at least a decade of solid build after solid build. They have an incredible track record and have repeatedly been the bar that people compare other shops to. They also handled OP's situation pretty gracefully and, if true to their word (which we have no reason to doubt), will do the right thing.
This was a disaster, for sure; and like everyone else here, I'm super perplexed as to how this even left the shop. But one fuck up does not an untrustworthy shop make. Shit happens. I understand folks have been bamboozled by trustworthy, reputable guys before; but in the roughly 10 years I've been visiting this site, this is the first instance of something like this coming from Daemoness that I've seen. Compared to something like Kiesel? Who still has guys lining up to send money? Not even close. 

Be cautious and all that, for sure- I just think it's a bit premature to start talking about how the shop is burned now. 
Not picking on you btw, I'm just seeing a lot of comments in this direction.


----------



## Blytheryn

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Lets not get too squirrely here- and remember that this is a shop that's had at least a decade of solid build after solid build. They have an incredible track record and have repeatedly been the bar that people compare other shops to. They also handled OP's situation pretty gracefully and, if true to their word (which we have no reason to doubt), will do the right thing.
> This was a disaster, for sure; and like everyone else here, I'm super perplexed as to how this even left the shop. But one fuck up does not an untrustworthy shop make. Shit happens. I understand folks have been bamboozled by trustworthy, reputable guys before; but in the roughly 10 years I've been visiting this site, this is the first instance of something like this coming from Daemoness that I've seen. Compared to something like Kiesel? Who still has guys lining up to send money? Not even close.
> 
> Be cautious and all that, for sure- I just think it's a bit premature to start talking about how the shop is burned now.
> Not picking on you btw, I'm just seeing a lot of comments in this direction.


Thanks for some common sense finally.


----------



## Passtheapathy

I don’t think there’s been a lack of common sense here. It’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned that a 5 year lead time instrument from a builder with an impeccable reputation until now has flaws like this. Sure, mistakes happen. But as in anything in life, recent performance is a great indicator of what’s to come. This guitar straight up looks like a Chinese knockoff.


----------



## Blytheryn

Passtheapathy said:


> I don’t think there’s been a lack of common sense here. It’s perfectly reasonable to be concerned that a 5 year lead time instrument from a builder with an impeccable reputation until now has flaws like this. Sure, mistakes happen. But as in anything in life, recent performance is a great indicator of what’s to come. This guitar straight up looks like a Chinese knockoff.




I was aiming at the more over the top reactions to this than your sane assessment. Of course this will result in negative blowback. Some will be understandably be turned off by the brand, but to write Daemoness off as a hack luthier brand or from the list of reputable luthiers is a little extreme. Of course I’m biased as the owner of an amazing Daemoness, I realize that. Given their output of up until now near flawless instruments, and their handling of the situation, I feel that the only thing to do is to wait for more new builds to be completed. I sincerely hope for both future Daemoness owners and the brand, that this isn’t a trend. 

I myself have been waiting for my own build for quite some time, and I’d feel just like the OP if I were to receive a guitar like he did after such a wait. It breaks my heart a little bit.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Crazy to think with the several mounds of guitars Kiesel has fucked up he still has people jerking him off, and all it took was a single guitar from Daemoness to get people off the hype train.

I guess this is the power of the "#jointhefamily" bullshit, I guess you do tolerate it when family screws you over several times 

This sucks, but some of you guys need to get over yourselves. It's like some of you are frothing at the mouth to dogpile a luthier.


----------



## budda

Man, sorry for the loss of your time. Damn.


----------



## NickB11

As someone with a deposit down and "build to start imminently", I really just want an explanation as to how this left the shop. As others said, this doesn't even seem to be something Dylan/Daemoness made, the quality and overall "craftsmanship" seem to be completely off. I'm really hoping he addresses this to give us future (or repeat) buyers some confidence in moving forward. Otherwise, it would be nice to have the option to get your deposit back....

I've also reached out to Dylan/Barnes a few times over the past few months with no response, so that's not exactly helping...

Finger's crossed we get some more insight into the situation


----------



## dhgrind

NickBen said:


> As someone with a deposit down and "build to start imminently", I really just want an explanation as to how this left the shop. As others said, this doesn't even seem to be something Dylan/Daemoness made, the quality and overall "craftsmanship" seem to be completely off. I'm really hoping he addresses this to give us future (or repeat) buyers some confidence in moving forward. Otherwise, it would be nice to have the option to get your deposit back....
> 
> I've also reached out to Dylan/Barnes a few times over the past few months with no response, so that's not exactly helping...
> 
> Finger's crossed we get some more insight into the situation



as far as the no response they’ve told me that their email usually drops into spam so to try and message them on FB.


----------



## Lemonbaby

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Lets not get too squirrely here- and remember that this is a shop that's had at least a decade of solid build after solid build. They have an incredible track record and have repeatedly been the bar that people compare other shops to. [...]


I respect your positive bias for these guys, but what happens to receive an instrument like this is: finish build - check the guitar - decide if the issues need to be fixed - say "nope" - send guitar out. Every shop is in control of the outside view potential customers have. In this case, they just didn't care because the flaws are too obvious to go unnoticed unless your QC staff is blind and/or on drugs...


----------



## possumkiller

Maybe they just got pished the day that was sent out. I remember packing my ruck for a two week field exercise while I was pished the night before. When I was unpacking in the field the next day I was surprised at the random bullshit thrown into my ruck and the complete lack of sleeping bag, hygiene kit, uniforms, and food (apart from an apple and a couple slices of pizza).


----------



## oracles

prlgmnr said:


> Well, if that's the 2nd worst one in existence I think we can all rest extremely easy now.



Its definitely not. I feel infinitely bad for whoever owns the pocketwatch build because that thing was a trainwreck in terms of fit and finish. The finish work was awful and it aged very poorly, last I heard the clearcoat had clouded over quite badly, and the original staining also wasnt exactly stellar.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

prlgmnr said:


> Well, if that's the 2nd worst one we know of I think we can all rest extremely easy now.



FTFY


----------



## prlgmnr

It was very much a load-bearing "if" in my post there.


----------



## axxessdenied

dhgrind said:


> as far as the no response they’ve told me that their email usually drops into spam so to try and message them on FB.


Bruh... this is such a lame ass excuse. If they know that then they should be checking their spam folder regularly. I've had people drop that excuse on me before when given the run around.


----------



## Seabeast2000

prlgmnr said:


> It was very much a load-bearing "if" in my post there.


I would reinforce with 24 point allcap lumber.


----------



## dhgrind

axxessdenied said:


> Bruh... this is such a lame ass excuse. If they know that then they should be checking their spam folder regularly. I've had people drop that excuse on me before when given the run around.



I didn’t say it was a good one I’m just telling that’s what I was told when I waited like 2 months to hear back for a query on my queue spot.


----------



## NickB11

dhgrind said:


> I didn’t say it was a good one I’m just telling that’s what I was told when I waited like 2 months to hear back for a query on my queue spot.



Definitely not in the "spam" folder as we have been conversing back and forth for a few months. I followed up since they were supposed to send me my new estimate and was told my build was starting shortly. I gave it a month and followed up, no response. And then gave it another month and followed up again - still no response...not trying to make a big deal, I know they're probably swamped, but it's a little concerning now with this issue coming to the forefront. Hopefully, they just address it and we can all move forward. A quick email takes seconds and eliminates any speculation - all they have to say is "really busy, but will follow up with you shortly..." or something like that...


----------



## jco5055

Yeah idk I know one can say in the grand scheme of things they are still a reputable builder since this is like one of the only times flaws have been found, and they've offered to rectify it, I just still don't know how something like that gets sent out unless they thought the OP was literally blind and wouldn't see the issues, or like some worker straight up stole the real guitar and replaced it with a shitty chinese knockoff etc (and said worker would be fired).


----------



## c7spheres

jco5055 said:


> Yeah idk I know one can say in the grand scheme of things they are still a reputable builder since this is like one of the only times flaws have been found, and they've offered to rectify it, I just still don't know how something like that gets sent out unless they thought the OP was literally blind and wouldn't see the issues, or like some worker straight up stole the real guitar and replaced it with a shitty chinese knockoff etc (and said worker would be fired).


 It could be any number of things like you're saying. Someone changin it out for a knowckoff etc, or it could be something as simple as it got put on a completed guitar rack ready to be shipped instead of the rack ready to be inspected etc. We may never know. The future will tell how it pans out for people, but I'd put my money (if I had any) on Daemoness continuing to do the stellar job they usually do.


----------



## Vyn

Feel bad for the OP, hopefully there's some positives out of the refund (ie still getting a banger of a guitar from another manufacturer).

I enjoy a good bout of hanging shit on of a luthier of the BRJ/Vik ilk just as much as anyone else however I think in this case Daemoness gets a chance to see if they can professionally rectify this issue (which by the looks of it they have done by apologising and offering a full rebuild or refund). Now it's a waiting game to see if this repeats itself and frequently at that - the two guitars mentioned in this thread are the only builds that have come up so far that have been less than perfect.


----------



## jco5055

c7spheres said:


> It could be any number of things like you're saying. Someone changin it out for a knowckoff etc, or it could be something as simple as it got put on a completed guitar rack ready to be shipped instead of the rack ready to be inspected etc. We may never know. The future will tell how it pans out for people, but I'd put my money (if I had any) on Daemoness continuing to do the stellar job they usually do.



Yeah I didn't think about the guitar rack by accident possibility, that seems most likely the explanation on how you get a guitar sent to you by a highly respected luthier in such a state.


----------



## Mechanos71

Vyn said:


> Feel bad for the OP, hopefully there's some positives out of the refund (ie still getting a banger of a guitar from another manufacturer).
> 
> I enjoy a good bout of hanging shit on of a luthier of the BRJ/Vik ilk just as much as anyone else however I think in this case Daemoness gets a chance to see if they can professionally rectify this issue (which by the looks of it they have done by apologising and offering a full rebuild or refund). Now it's a waiting game to see if this repeats itself and frequently at that - the two guitars mentioned in this thread are the only builds that have come up so far that have been less than perfect.


Like I said there was another set of guitars that had the scratches issue. Also not trying to put other people’s business out there


----------



## c7spheres

Might want to do a better job blocking out the name if that's a concern. You can still see through it. Kinda odd.


----------



## Mechanos71

c7spheres said:


> Might want to do a better job blocking out the name if that's a concern. You can still see through it. Kinda odd.


Thanks for the heads up... the markup feature didn’t work nearly as well as I would have hoped


----------



## IbanezDaemon

I have had some correspondence with Daemoness on these issues and they have stated that they are going to really ramp up scrutiny and there will be nothing coming out of the shop like this again. Having said that I have taken in 3 recently and they have all been perfect including one in the last week which I think was a build from 2017. I also have a build nearing completion so stay tuned for that one.


----------



## WiseSplinter

oracles said:


> Its definitely not. I feel infinitely bad for whoever owns the pocketwatch build because that thing was a trainwreck in terms of fit and finish. The finish work was awful and it aged very poorly, last I heard the clearcoat had clouded over quite badly, and the original staining also wasnt exactly stellar.



Damn, I think I saw a video review of that guitar years ago and thought it looked amazing. I don't recall the reviewer having anything bad to say about it, maybe these issues developed later on?

Anyway, hope things work out for you OP.


----------



## Pat

Mechanos71 said:


> Lol, it’s the larger horn of the guitar and a side view. And while I did say it was a niggle, it was super annoying mistake for a guitar I waited so long/paid so much for. Like the kind of mistake you don’t find on 1k production guitars. To your point Blytherin, I didn’t mention it in my NGD, because it was a relatively small thing and I didn’t want to start drama.
> Last thing the picture doesn’t capture is that paint is on top of the clear you can feel it. So I am not even sure how it happened.


What's going on with the wonky line where the black paint meets natural wood? And why does the line randomly jut out above that paint spot?

I still can't work out in my head what is going on here haha


----------



## dhgrind

Op if you still have the guitar on hand could you snap a pic of the control cavity


----------



## frogman81

Blytheryn said:


> I’m glad you were able to get this sorted out. Would you be sending the guitar back in that case?



To answer your question, yes - the guitar was picked up just now and is on its way back to Daemoness. I'll post a detailed follow-up of the transaction and my thoughts when the money is back in my account. 



dhgrind said:


> Op if you still have the guitar on hand could you snap a pic of the control cavity



Here you go.


----------



## frogman81

I mentioned that I would post a follow-up once I received the refund, and the money arrived yesterday so here it is. Barnes handled the refund admin and was very pleasant to deal with.

Let me start by saying that it took me a few days to come to terms with just how bad the guitar was. My first reaction upon opening the case was that it just _wasn't that black_. Like, it was kind of greyish. Secondly, the ebony looked quite dry, but I figured no big deal to fix that. Then I noticed the finish swirling/polish marks. I thought it was play wear at first, but quickly realized it was all over the guitar. I drove home from the post office outlet thinking it over. Maybe it was a bit disappointing in the finish, but hey such is life. Rarely can something so anticipated live up to the hype. This is where I would say that these builders really benefit from expectation bias. If you anticipate this amazing guitar for YEARS, it causes some real cognitive dissonance when you finally get it and realize it's not what you'd hoped for, or maybe not even close. I played it that night, and while the action was surprisingly high, I will say that the tone was quite nice. It was modelled after my old ESP M-I (Alder, Maple neck, and Ebony fretboard) and I found the tone quite reminiscent of that guitar. It was nice and resonant and had no noticeable fret buzzing (of course the relatively high action would help with that). Eventually I had a local tech measure the action at the 12th fret and he found it at 3.8/64" on the treble side to 5/64th on the bass side. He said that if he was setting up a "shredder" type guitar it would be more like 3.5 and 4/64ths.

I think it was the following day (day 2 of ownership) that I looked it over more closely and noticed the neck pocket crack. That was the nail in the coffin for me that made me accept that this just wasn't a nice instrument. It honestly felt like a $400 Schecter from 2005. Honestly, probably worse. I still took a couple more days to decide how to approach the situation. Keep in mind that life/work/family was going on the whole time. I think I had had the guitar for a week when I sent the email asking for a refund, but had been away on a 3 day work trip in that period.

I had a Skype call with Dylan and Barnes the day after I sent photos and asked for a refund. Their tone was very apologetic. Dylan was quite eager for me to give him have the chance to build a replacement, but I expected this and told him I wasn't interested. Barnes was helpful and understanding. I didn't get a great explanation as to how the guitar turned out so badly, however. Dylan mentioned that he's been overworked and thinks he had some eye strain the day that he buffed the guitar. He also alluded to the possibility that he may need glasses. He felt almost positive that the neck pocket crack was just a finish crack (whether it was a finish crack or wood crack didn't really make a difference to me). I did ask why the neck pocket was painted (I have a theory that this played a role in the pocket crack) and he said that lots of guitars have painted neck pockets, citing Ibanez as an example. I haven't come across this myself, but then again I haven't taken many necks off of guitars. I had been wondering if I had gotten an apprentice-built guitar. I asked Barnes if he is apprenticing or does any building. He said no, he just helps out, does some sanding, admin, and wiring.

One thing I didn't mention before is that the guitar was paid for in full in April of 2018. That means I paid the full price and still waited another year and half for it. I think that is a little offside. I believe the agreement stated that full cost would be due when it returns from paint and is ready for final assembly, but I think it is reasonable to expect your guitar to be finished in a few weeks to MAYBE 3 months after it's been fully paid for. The other thing I haven't mentioned is that Dylan built how many endorsee guitars while I was on the waiting list? Kyle, Jari, 2 for 1349, 1 for Soreption, 1 for Crypt Sermon... I think that's it? Dylan can of course do whatever he wants at the end of the day, but I don't think it's very nice to keep paying customers waiting YEARS while you build endorsement guitars.

One bit of irony is that one of the factors in my choosing a bolt-on is that 5 YEARS AGO, when I was deciding, I couldn't really get a good look at the paint lines where the neck meets the body on his set neck guitars. I thought it was safer to go with a bolt-on, plus I was trying to spec it for longevity (possible neck replacement if it ever needed it), and kinda buy into that "snappier" sound from bolt-ons theory. Anyway, I chose a bolt on and ended up with what I would say was the most poorly executed bolt on that I've ever seen.

That's it for now. I wish Dylan and Barnes well, but I will say that Dylan let me down in a way that can never be forgiven. I'll still follow Dylan's work on social media, but I'm quite happy to no longer be a customer.


----------



## narad

I'm a huge Daemoness fan but I'd feel the same way. That looked pretty bad and there's also just a extra bit of sting in that some hand painted, fully inlay board, all-out crazy spec gets done proper, and a simple understated pin-stripe paintjob comes out looking shoddy and rushed.

The one thing I'll say where I expect Daemoness to always take the higher ground is in trying to make the customer happy. You'd like to say that such a shop would never let a guitar like this out, but I think you, me, AND THEM -- we would all agree that that guitar had unacceptable problems, and while that's very little consolation, it actually should be in the grand scheme of things (in the custom guitar world at least). The number of custom guitars I've received that were not quite right and I had to go and say, "Hey man, look at this reference photo - that's the wrong finish.", "Look at this spec sheet - that's the wrong spec", etc., and not be offered really anything but an empty, actionless apology, and have to move these things along at huge losses.

So in this case I have a deposit with Daemoness and should be coming up in the next batch. It might be surprising to hear but this horror story really gives me no pause for concern, because I've been chatting with Dylan about guitars since like 2008, and I trust that he's always going to take action to remedy these situations if they ever were to happen again.


----------



## prlgmnr

frogman81 said:


> Dylan mentioned that he's been overworked and thinks he had some eye strain the day that he buffed the guitar. He also alluded to the possibility that he may need glasses.



eye strain? bad enough to be unable to buff a guitar properly? just on one day? localized entirely to one guitar?

All that fiddly inlay work could be bad for your eyes I'm not doubting that.


----------



## Pat

prlgmnr said:


> eye strain? bad enough to be unable to buff a guitar properly? just on one day? localized entirely to one guitar?



AURORA BOREALIS?


----------



## Flappydoodle

frogman81 said:


> I mentioned that I would post a follow-up once I received the refund, and the money arrived yesterday so here it is. Barnes handled the refund admin and was very pleasant to deal with.
> 
> Let me start by saying that it took me a few days to come to terms with just how bad the guitar was. My first reaction upon opening the case was that it just _wasn't that black_. Like, it was kind of greyish. Secondly, the ebony looked quite dry, but I figured no big deal to fix that. Then I noticed the finish swirling/polish marks. I thought it was play wear at first, but quickly realized it was all over the guitar. I drove home from the post office outlet thinking it over. Maybe it was a bit disappointing in the finish, but hey such is life. Rarely can something so anticipated live up to the hype. This is where I would say that these builders really benefit from expectation bias. If you anticipate this amazing guitar for YEARS, it causes some real cognitive dissonance when you finally get it and realize it's not what you'd hoped for, or maybe not even close. I played it that night, and while the action was surprisingly high, I will say that the tone was quite nice. It was modelled after my old ESP M-I (Alder, Maple neck, and Ebony fretboard) and I found the tone quite reminiscent of that guitar. It was nice and resonant and had no noticeable fret buzzing (of course the relatively high action would help with that). Eventually I had a local tech measure the action at the 12th fret and he found it at 3.8/64" on the treble side to 5/64th on the bass side. He said that if he was setting up a "shredder" type guitar it would be more like 3.5 and 4/64ths.
> 
> I think it was the following day (day 2 of ownership) that I looked it over more closely and noticed the neck pocket crack. That was the nail in the coffin for me that made me accept that this just wasn't a nice instrument. It honestly felt like a $400 Schecter from 2005. Honestly, probably worse. I still took a couple more days to decide how to approach the situation. Keep in mind that life/work/family was going on the whole time. I think I had had the guitar for a week when I sent the email asking for a refund, but had been away on a 3 day work trip in that period.
> 
> I had a Skype call with Dylan and Barnes the day after I sent photos and asked for a refund. Their tone was very apologetic. Dylan was quite eager for me to give him have the chance to build a replacement, but I expected this and told him I wasn't interested. Barnes was helpful and understanding. I didn't get a great explanation as to how the guitar turned out so badly, however. Dylan mentioned that he's been overworked and thinks he had some eye strain the day that he buffed the guitar. He also alluded to the possibility that he may need glasses. He felt almost positive that the neck pocket crack was just a finish crack (whether it was a finish crack or wood crack didn't really make a difference to me). I did ask why the neck pocket was painted (I have a theory that this played a role in the pocket crack) and he said that lots of guitars have painted neck pockets, citing Ibanez as an example. I haven't come across this myself, but then again I haven't taken many necks off of guitars. I had been wondering if I had gotten an apprentice-built guitar. I asked Barnes if he is apprenticing or does any building. He said no, he just helps out, does some sanding, admin, and wiring.
> 
> One thing I didn't mention before is that the guitar was paid for in full in April of 2018. That means I paid the full price and still waited another year and half for it. I think that is a little offside. I believe the agreement stated that full cost would be due when it returns from paint and is ready for final assembly, but I think it is reasonable to expect your guitar to be finished in a few weeks to MAYBE 3 months after it's been fully paid for. The other thing I haven't mentioned is that Dylan built how many endorsee guitars while I was on the waiting list? Kyle, Jari, 2 for 1349, 1 for Soreption, 1 for Crypt Sermon... I think that's it? Dylan can of course do whatever he wants at the end of the day, but I don't think it's very nice to keep paying customers waiting YEARS while you build endorsement guitars.
> 
> One bit of irony is that one of the factors in my choosing a bolt-on is that 5 YEARS AGO, when I was deciding, I couldn't really get a good look at the paint lines where the neck meets the body on his set neck guitars. I thought it was safer to go with a bolt-on, plus I was trying to spec it for longevity (possible neck replacement if it ever needed it), and kinda buy into that "snappier" sound from bolt-ons theory. Anyway, I chose a bolt on and ended up with what I would say was the most poorly executed bolt on that I've ever seen.
> 
> That's it for now. I wish Dylan and Barnes well, but I will say that Dylan let me down in a way that can never be forgiven. I'll still follow Dylan's work on social media, but I'm quite happy to no longer be a customer.



Urgh, that's super disappointing.

I have a deposit down with them. Those excuses honestly don't sound convincing. Eye strain? Needs glasses? Come on. He's painting all those crazy details and doing inlays with hundreds of tiny pieces being glued in. You can definitely see those massive tool marks around the frets, or the uneven green paint bleeding into the black.

I simply don't believe those excuses. Clearly Dylan IS capable of doing great work. Your guitar has been at the shop for AGES. And being asked to pay in full in 2018 and then not receiving it for so long is suspicious. IMO, something happened to it and this is a very hasty, secret re-build, which might have been outsourced. Of course they'll never admit that, but that's my gut feeling.

I also agree with you about how many guitars he's build recently. I visited the shop and there really aren't that many guitars on the go. Only 3-4 on the wall. and no signs of active working that day. Nothing half-built. I also visited Tom Waghorn, and he had maybe 10 half-finished guitars which were literally being worked on when I visited.




narad said:


> I'm a huge Daemoness fan but I'd feel the same way. That looked pretty bad and there's also just a extra bit of sting in that some hand painted, fully inlay board, all-out crazy spec gets done proper, and a simple understated pin-stripe paintjob comes out looking shoddy and rushed.
> 
> The one thing I'll say where I expect Daemoness to always take the higher ground is in trying to make the customer happy. You'd like to say that such a shop would never let a guitar like this out, but I think you, me, AND THEM -- we would all agree that that guitar had unacceptable problems, and while that's very little consolation, it actually should be in the grand scheme of things (in the custom guitar world at least). The number of custom guitars I've received that were not quite right and I had to go and say, "Hey man, look at this reference photo - that's the wrong finish.", "Look at this spec sheet - that's the wrong spec", etc., and not be offered really anything but an empty, actionless apology, and have to move these things along at huge losses.
> 
> So in this case I have a deposit with Daemoness and should be coming up in the next batch. It might be surprising to hear but this horror story really gives me no pause for concern, because I've been chatting with Dylan about guitars since like 2008, and I trust that he's always going to take action to remedy these situations if they ever were to happen again.



It's great that he got a full refund, especially when Daemoness is almost certainly not legally obligated to give him one. I have a deposit down too, so that's comforting at least.

But still - you don't believe those excuses, right? Eye strain? That guitar has been in Dylan's shop for AGES, and the mistakes are everywhere - the frets, the fretboard, the paint job, the finishing, the routing. It's not like he had a bad day, or a bad week, and messed up one thing, one time. The whole thing is a disaster.

I reckon it's a hasty re-build. Maybe it was even outsourced.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> Urgh, that's super disappointing.
> 
> I have a deposit down with them. Those excuses honestly don't sound convincing. Eye strain? Needs glasses? Come on. He's painting all those crazy details and doing inlays with hundreds of tiny pieces being glued in. You can definitely see those massive tool marks around the frets, or the uneven green paint bleeding into the black.
> 
> I simply don't believe those excuses. Clearly Dylan IS capable of doing great work. Your guitar has been at the shop for AGES. And being asked to pay in full in 2018 and then not receiving it for so long is suspicious. IMO, something happened to it and this is a very hasty, secret re-build, which might have been outsourced. Of course they'll never admit that, but that's my gut feeling.
> 
> I also agree with you about how many guitars he's build recently. I visited the shop and there really aren't that many guitars on the go. Only 3-4 on the wall. and no signs of active working that day. Nothing half-built. I also visited Tom Waghorn, and he had maybe 10 half-finished guitars which were literally being worked on when I visited.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's great that he got a full refund, especially when Daemoness is almost certainly not legally obligated to give him one. I have a deposit down too, so that's comforting at least.
> 
> But still - you don't believe those excuses, right? Eye strain? That guitar has been in Dylan's shop for AGES, and the mistakes are everywhere - the frets, the fretboard, the paint job, the finishing, the routing. It's not like he had a bad day, or a bad week, and messed up one thing, one time. The whole thing is a disaster.
> 
> I reckon it's a hasty re-build. Maybe it was even outsourced.



I don't think it was outsourced. It would probably be more difficult to setup another shop to make then to just half-ass it. 

All the issues are pretty much related to someone rushing and not caring about the outcome. I say that as someone who has worked on, built, and assembled guitars. They skipped steps to be done with it. That's pretty much it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think it was outsourced. It would probably be more difficult to setup another shop to make then to just half-ass it.
> 
> All the issues are pretty much related to someone rushing and not caring about the outcome. I say that as someone who has worked on, built, and assembled guitars. They skipped steps to be done with it. That's pretty much it.



Yeah, you're probably right. And likely compounded by the fact that OP had been waiting 5 years for this very simple build. They presumably wanted rid of it, didn't want him waiting ANOTHER year etc.

I assume something went wrong which "necessitated" this though. Like, they completely forgot to start building his guitar. Or something required a re-build.


----------



## Vyn

Flappydoodle said:


> Yeah, you're probably right. And likely compounded by the fact that OP had been waiting 5 years for this very simple build. They presumably wanted rid of it, didn't want him waiting ANOTHER year etc.
> 
> I assume something went wrong which "necessitated" this though. Like, they completely forgot to start building his guitar. Or something required a re-build.



I think this is probably more likely - going through old paperwork/spec sheets and finding one that hadn't been completed from foreevr ago, panic build and get it out the door. A situation not uncommon and not unique to guitar builders either, happens in all sorts of industries.


----------



## narad

Except that there's photos of this guitar around the shop from forever ago, even out of finish for a long time.


----------



## Vyn

narad said:


> Except that there's photos of this guitar around the shop from forever ago, even out of finish for a long time.



Well shit. Ignore me then haha.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Except that there's photos of this guitar around the shop from forever ago, even out of finish for a long time.



Yeah, well we assume it's the exact same guitar. But who really knows.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Yeah, well we assume it's the exact same guitar. But who really knows.



Everyone but conspiracy theorists, I guess.


----------



## Meeotch

After reading this whole thread, I feel compelled to add my opinion that something really fishy went down with this build. Yes, too many mistakes and no good excuses. And totally out of left field for Daemoness. It sounds like they were super keen on an instant refund, as if they knew the complaint was coming down the pipe.

So here's the story I came up with: guitar was loaned to a friend who played it extensively. Friend fucked it up and in desperation tried to repair and buff, either via his own means or outsourced. Could the guitar have even received a new paint job at this point? But what about the routes?? Either way, guitar was returned last minute AND missed final inspection before going out the door. 

I doubt we'll ever know for sure, but there is definitely a story behind this one. Definitely not just a case of the Mondays.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Everyone but conspiracy theorists, I guess.



Then what's the explanation for the complete guitar hanging around Dylan's shop for over a year and OP only getting it, in a shitty state, last week?

OP was asked to make his final payment more than a year ago. That is usually when your guitar just needs setting up and shipping out. So there's no explanation for the unusually long time taken, and no excuse (except "eye strain") for the shoddy quality of OP's guitar. Everything looks rushed, and given that it's one of the simplest Daemoness guitars I've seen, and it's taken 5.5 years, it's not a wild guess that something happened to the original and this is a hasty re-build. 

Hell, if that guitar has been around Dylan's shop for a year and he didn't see and correct those obvious flaws, more shame on him.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Then what's the explanation for the complete guitar hanging around Dylan's shop for over a year and OP only getting it, in a shitty state, last week?
> 
> OP was asked to make his final payment more than a year ago. That is usually when your guitar just needs setting up and shipping out. So there's no explanation for the unusually long time taken, and no excuse (except "eye strain") for the shoddy quality of OP's guitar. Everything looks rushed, and given that it's one of the simplest Daemoness guitars I've seen, and it's taken 5.5 years, it's not a wild guess that something happened to the original and this is a hasty re-build.
> 
> Hell, if that guitar has been around Dylan's shop for a year and he didn't see and correct those obvious flaws, more shame on him.



No explanation for the unusually long time taken? But...most Daemonesses take that long. 

Whoa, wait, I think we're on to something here. If that guitar took so long because it was outsourced, probably they're all outsourced!! Man, once this story breaks, shit's going to get crazy. I can't believe these guys, trying to pass of Korean-built guitars (because that's probably where they would outsource to) as handmade UK instruments. Shame on them.


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> No explanation for the unusually long time taken? But...most Daemonesses take that long.
> 
> Whoa, wait, I think we're on to something here. If that guitar took so long because it was outsourced, probably they're all outsourced!! Man, once this story breaks, shit's going to get crazy. I can't believe these guys, trying to pass of Korean-built guitars (because that's probably where they would outsource to) as handmade UK instruments. Shame on them.


----------



## dmlinger

With the pickup cavity clearly green in the Instagram photos, and black in OP's photos...it seems that this guitar was damaged sometime after finish.

Since Dylan outsources his paint work, it appears that it was a shoddy attempt at refinishing the instrument.


----------



## rifftrauma

frogman81 said:


> Hi everyone, to sum it up I've received my Daemoness after a 5 year, 5 month wait (May 2014-October 2019) and I'm disappointed with it. It plays nice, sounds good, and looks cool across the room, but the fit and finish just aren't what I was expecting. I've waited a week to think it over, took it to a guitar shop for another opinion, and just emailed Barnes my thoughts. I'll try to follow up with whether we can try to come to an agreement that makes me feel better about the situation.
> 
> I'll try to just let the photos do the talking (haven't bothered getting my DSLR out yet, just iPhone pics) and anyone who cares can make up their own mind as to how they would feel.
> 
> Here are some pics.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The main issue is that there is a neck pocket crack, but there are a fair amount of other small things that in isolation wouldn't be a big deal, but all add up to make it not the guitar I was expecting. The first thing I noticed was that there are A LOT of polish marks. I compared it with a couple of other new gloss black guitars at The Twelfth Fret in Toronto today, and they just didn't have marks like this.
> 
> How would you feel?


----------



## possumkiller

That whole situation is pretty freakin yeet.


----------



## R34CH

narad said:


> I've been chatting with Dylan about guitars since like 2008, and I trust that he's always going to take action to remedy these situations if they ever were to happen again



No horse in this race at all, but to me this is the crux of it. Wait times (and potentially unresolved timeline) aside, at the end of the day OP got a poorly finished guitar. That sucks. Like really sucks.

For reasons we will probably never truly know, that guitar left the shop when it shouldn't have and ended up in OP's hands. Again, that sucks.

However, when confronted with the issue, Daemoness offered OP (in my opinion) the two best options available: front of the line rebuild or refund.

Again, no skin in the game, but if anything, this would make me more comfortable in ordering a Daemoness over other independent custom builders. Poop happens. But what happens after poop happens is the question? In this case, we've seen that Daemoness will do what is necessary. Sure, we can point out that the excuses are weird, don't make sense, or shaky, but ultimately Daemoness put their money where their mouth was and offered best case solutions.

My heart goes out to OP for an immensely sucky situation.


----------



## c7spheres

narad said:


> .... Korean-built guitars (because that's probably where they would outsource to)



Wouldn't it be great if there were any chance in hell this were true and someone found the supplier? I'd be able to finally get a Daemoness, maybe even two : )


----------



## Overtone

Damn dude
Not what I was expecting opening up a Daemoness NGD thread! Glad you got a refund without too much fuss.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> No explanation for the unusually long time taken? But...most Daemonesses take that long.
> 
> Whoa, wait, I think we're on to something here. If that guitar took so long because it was outsourced, probably they're all outsourced!! Man, once this story breaks, shit's going to get crazy. I can't believe these guys, trying to pass of Korean-built guitars (because that's probably where they would outsource to) as handmade UK instruments. Shame on them.



I'm ignoring your stupid facetious straw man. 

Let's focus on the major issues - this one did take an unusually long amount of time and has not been a "normal" experience in many ways.

In terms of timeline, OP said that he put the deposit down in 2014, had the skype talk in October 2016, and the body and headstock was done by Feb 2017. In 2018 he said that it was ready to go. He paid for the guitar in full in 2018. That's usually when the guitar is ready to ship. So what's been happening for over a year?

I distinctly remember in the dealer section thread that others were getting guitars even though they'd put deposits after him. There are people with 2016 deposits who have guitars. So clearly this particular guitar fell through the cracks somewhere. It was either forgotten, re-built, or Dylan just stopped giving a fuck.

I don't have social media, but somebody above says the same guitar was on Instagram with a green pickup cavity (what OP asked for). You can see a hint of green paint around the edge of the cavity in one of OP's photos, but now the cavity is black. Again, that hints that the guitar was painted more than once.

I think "eye strain" is a more improbable reason than damage/refinishing/outsourcing.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> I'm ignoring your stupid facetious straw man.
> 
> Let's focus on the major issues - this one did take an unusually long amount of time and has not been a "normal" experience in many ways.
> 
> In terms of timeline, OP said that he put the deposit down in 2014, had the skype talk in October 2016, and the body and headstock was done by Feb 2017. In 2018 he said that it was ready to go. He paid for the guitar in full in 2018. That's usually when the guitar is ready to ship. So what's been happening for over a year?
> 
> I distinctly remember in the dealer section thread that others were getting guitars even though they'd put deposits after him. There are people with 2016 deposits who have guitars. So clearly this particular guitar fell through the cracks somewhere. It was either forgotten, re-built, or Dylan just stopped giving a fuck.
> 
> I don't have social media, but somebody above says the same guitar was on Instagram with a green pickup cavity (what OP asked for). You can see a hint of green paint around the edge of the cavity in one of OP's photos, but now the cavity is black. Again, that hints that the guitar was painted more than once.
> 
> I think "eye strain" is a more improbable reason than damage/refinishing/outsourcing.



I don't know man but you've been pushing this outsourcing conspiracy theory since the very moment the guy posted the guitar. It's not a normal thought. It doesn't follow a rational train of thought, calibrated to what tends to be a likely or unlikely explanation.

Moreover, such claims are unfalsifiable, given that Dylan's not popping in here. You need some sort information to create a theory. Otherwise, feel free to throw any explanation at the wall. Loch Ness monster ate the original guitar. Hellen Keller rebuilt it. Case closed.


----------



## StevenC

narad said:


> I don't know man but you've been pushing this outsourcing conspiracy theory since the very moment the guy posted the guitar. It's not a normal thought. It doesn't follow a rational train of thought, calibrated to what tends to be a likely or unlikely explanation.
> 
> Moreover, such claims are unfalsifiable, given that Dylan's not popping in here. You need some sort information to create a theory. Otherwise, feel free to throw any explanation at the wall. Loch Ness monster ate the original guitar. Hellen Keller rebuilt it. Case closed.


The pin stripes do look kinda like Loch Ness Green. Coincidence? I think not!


----------



## MaxOfMetal

StevenC said:


> The pin stripes do look kinda like Loch Ness Green. Coincidence? I think not!



And done by a blind person.


----------



## possumkiller

narad said:


> I don't know man but you've been pushing this outsourcing conspiracy theory since the very moment the guy posted the guitar. It's not a normal thought. It doesn't follow a rational train of thought, calibrated to what tends to be a likely or unlikely explanation.
> 
> Moreover, such claims are unfalsifiable, given that Dylan's not popping in here. You need some sort information to create a theory. Otherwise, feel free to throw any explanation at the wall. Loch Ness monster ate the original guitar. Hellen Keller rebuilt it. Case closed.


For some reason I always get Helen Keller and Ann Frank mixed up.


----------



## spudmunkey

possumkiller said:


> For some reason I always get Helen Keller and Ann Frank mixed up.



Eh, they are both dead.

What, too soon?

Make sure to follow @therealhelenkeller on instagram.


----------



## Randy

Am I too late to speculate Daemoness guitars are ghost-built or am I just on time?


----------



## possumkiller

Randy said:


> Am I too late to speculate Daemoness guitars are ghost-built or am I just on time?


I heard all the wood work was always done in Mexico and the finishing done in Ukraine and Dylan just installed hardware and did the final setup.


----------



## Randy

possumkiller said:


> I heard all the wood work was always done in Mexico and the finishing done in Ukraine and Dylan just installed hardware and did the final setup.



The whole BRJ thing was what came to mind. I remember the first guy to point out how you never saw any sawdust on the floor in the pics of Bernie's shop.

Pics from Daemoness, the shop always looks really cramped and most of the work surfaces looked dedicated to painting, or partially finished guitars you see are complete and in the middle of the paint process. One of the biggest hiccups I've run into in my own building is the finish and assembly work, because you can't have it anywhere near the wood working process or everything gets contaminated with sawdust. Takes up a lot of real estate, unless you have the two taking place in more than one facility, which presents it's own hurdles.

Not to derail or fling any inflammatory speculation. It just always struck me that I don't see much of the actual construction process over there. Since farming out work came up, this seemed like as good a time to bring it up as any.


----------



## prlgmnr

if a ghost is building them that's like, super metal and massively on-brand


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Randy said:


> The whole BRJ thing was what came to mind. I remember the first guy to point out how you never saw any sawdust on the floor in the pics of Bernie's shop.
> 
> Pics from Daemoness, the shop always looks really cramped and most of the work surfaces looked dedicated to painting, or partially finished guitars you see are complete and in the middle of the paint process. One of the biggest hiccups I've run into in my own building is the finish and assembly work, because you can't have it anywhere near the wood working process or everything gets contaminated with sawdust. Takes up a lot of real estate, unless you have the two taking place in more than one facility, which presents it's own hurdles.
> 
> Not to derail or fling any inflammatory speculation. It just always struck me that I don't see much of the actual construction process over there. Since farming out work came up, this seemed like as good a time to bring it up as any.


dylan has straight up said he farms out certain aspects of his builds like finish work- which could account for the buffing swirls in the clear coat. Doesn't excuse the shitty pinstriping pr tool marks on the fretboard though.

Painting a guitar even in a basic solid color and getting it looking close to pro-quality is the most tedious and annoying aspect of guitar building ime. 95% of my fuckups on builds come from painting/finishing issues. I spent months constantly redoing my RFR tele build's paint job to get it juuust right.


----------



## Randy

KnightBrolaire said:


> dylan has straight up said he farms out certain aspects of his builds like finish work- which could account for the buffing swirls in the clear coat. Doesn't excuse the shitty pinstriping pr tool marks on the fretboard though.
> 
> Painting a guitar even in a basic solid color and getting it looking close to pro-quality is the most tedious and annoying aspect of guitar building ime. 95% of my fuckups on builds come from painting/finishing issues. I spent months constantly redoing my RFR tele build's paint job to get it juuust right.



Oh yeah. Not to belabor the whole thing, I'm just saying... maybe he doesn't actually do the woodwork AND he doesn't to the base finish work, he's basically just the face/theme guy and obviously the hand painted stuff. Which is fine with me actually, I'm just sure some people out there thought between the price, waitlist and the hand-painted artwork that this was all or almost all done by Dylan. I could be wrong. No shade, just having a conversation.

As far as finish work, oh I can totally relate. I've got about a dozen builds that are just sitting unfinished because it's a LOT of work (which is why I'm usually very forgiving of paint blems on stuff I buy or see on here) and it's absolutely essential to have a totally isolated, perfectly lit and spotless space for finishing, wet sanding and assembling. I either need a LOT more space (like, as big as the shop that I do everything else in or bigger), to do things in phases so that I can convert the whole shop to JUST finishing, or save up enough to farm all of it out.

Sorry for the derail and also no intention of throwing shade. Like I said, just discussing.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Randy said:


> Oh yeah. Not to belabor the whole thing, I'm just saying... maybe he doesn't actually do the woodwork AND he doesn't to the base finish work, he's basically just the face/theme guy and obviously the hand painted stuff. Which is fine with me actually, I'm just sure some people out there thought between the price, waitlist and the hand-painted artwork that this was all or almost all done by Dylan. I could be wrong. No shade, just having a conversation.
> 
> As far as finish work, oh I can totally relate. I've got about a dozen builds that are just sitting unfinished because it's a LOT of work (which is why I'm usually very forgiving of paint blems on stuff I buy or see on here) and it's absolutely essential to have a totally isolated, perfectly lit and spotless space for finishing, wet sanding and assembling. I either need a LOT more space (like, as big as the shop that I do everything else in or bigger), to do things in phases so that I can convert the whole shop to JUST finishing, or save up enough to farm all of it out.
> 
> Sorry for the derail and also no intention of throwing shade. Like I said, just discussing.


I think Dylan is still doing all the woodworking/inlays/artwork and he's more than capable in that aspect from what I've seen, but it sounds like the main recurring issues have been with clear coats, both with the older pocketwatch build, frogman's build, and some others. Seems strange to me that if Dylan is farming out the finish work that he didn't catch the buffing swirls given his general eye for detail.

The isolation thing is huge. I've had so many builds get fucked up and repainted because of sawdust particles in the air getting into my rudimentary spray chamber. Well between that and my reluctance to invest in a basic sprayer setup. At this point I could have bought a decent setup with all the prevals/cans of 2k I've used


----------



## Viginez

Randy said:


> Sorry for the derail and also no intention of throwing shade. Like I said, just discussing.


didn't someone already mentioned few posts back that he didn't saw much work in the shop? can't find it right now.
maybe this guitar was shipped straight from the other shop w/out any end control by daemoness, because the build was considered very "basic".


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Viginez said:


> didn't someone already mentioned few posts back that he didn't saw much work in the shop? can't find it right now.
> maybe this guitar was shipped straight from the other shop w/out any end control by daemoness, because the build was considered very "basic".


bro it was literally the previous page...


Flappydoodle said:


> I also agree with you about how many guitars he's build recently. I visited the shop and there really aren't that many guitars on the go. Only 3-4 on the wall. and no signs of active working that day. Nothing half-built. I also visited Tom Waghorn, and he had maybe 10 half-finished guitars which were literally being worked on when I visited.


----------



## Blytheryn

When I was in the shop last year I saw tens of guitars on the wall, in various stages of of completion, and plenty of sawdust on the floor, as if that’s some kind of proof that he does any woodworking. You don’t have to be up to your ankles in it to prove that you do your own woodwork.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Blytheryn said:


> When I was in the shop last year I saw tens of guitars on the wall, in various stages of of completion, and plenty of sawdust on the floor, as if that’s some kind of proof that he does any woodworking. You don’t have to be up to your ankles in it to prove that you do your own woodwork.



Most people aren't questioning his woodworking skills, moreso the seemingly left field shoddy paint/finish work...


----------



## Blytheryn

KnightBrolaire said:


> Most people aren't questioning his woodworking skills, moreso the seemingly left field shoddy paint/finish work...



I remember someone saying something about not seeing many builds on the wall, and Randy entertaining the idea of them being ghost built. I’m just trying to quell the rumors. From what I know lacquering is being outsourced and the final buffing is done in the shop. That’s all I know and have been told.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Blytheryn said:


> I remember someone saying something about not seeing many builds on the wall, and Randy entertaining the idea of them being ghost built. I’m just trying to quell the rumors. From what I know lacquering is being outsourced and the final buffing is done in the shop. That’s all I know and have been told.



Yeah the lacquering is outsourced and Dylan uses the Laser Cutting machine at the Bristol Design Forge close to the shop but that's about it.


----------



## Randy

Blytheryn said:


> When I was in the shop last year I saw tens of guitars on the wall, in various stages of of completion, and plenty of sawdust on the floor, as if that’s some kind of proof that he does any woodworking. You don’t have to be up to your ankles in it to prove that you do your own woodwork.




Thanks for the details.

I didn't literally mean no sawdust, i just meant I don't see a lot of pics/vids of fretboards being slotted, necks being carved, etc like you see on most builders accounts (I follow on Instagram), nor do I ever see heavy equipment you'd use for an operation his size like a CNC or bandsaws or thickness sanders/planers, never see guitars midway through the actual construction process, racks of raw lumber, so on.

Anyway, thats neither here nor there. You've been to the shop and confirm they're built there, so that's resolved.


----------



## Blytheryn

Randy said:


> Thanks for the details.
> 
> I didn't literally mean no sawdust, i just meant I don't see a lot of pics/vids of fretboards being slotted, necks being carved, etc like you see on most builders accounts (I follow on Instagram), nor do I ever see heavy equipment you'd use for an operation his size like a CNC or bandsaws or thickness sanders/planers, never see guitars midway through the actual construction process, racks of raw lumber, so on.
> 
> Anyway, thats neither here nor there. You've been to the shop and confirm they're built there, so that's resolved.



No problem, just doing my bit!​


----------



## narad

Randy said:


> Am I too late to speculate Daemoness guitars are ghost-built or am I just on time?



Et tu, Randy?


----------



## dhgrind

thanks for shedding light on a murky issue. 
Sorry about your axe but you’ll be happier to move on.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Viginez said:


> didn't someone already mentioned few posts back that he didn't saw much work in the shop? can't find it right now.
> maybe this guitar was shipped straight from the other shop w/out any end control by daemoness, because the build was considered very "basic".





Blytheryn said:


> When I was in the shop last year I saw tens of guitars on the wall, in various stages of of completion, and plenty of sawdust on the floor, as if that’s some kind of proof that he does any woodworking. You don’t have to be up to your ankles in it to prove that you do your own woodwork.






Blytheryn said:


> I remember someone saying something about not seeing many builds on the wall, and Randy entertaining the idea of them being ghost built. I’m just trying to quell the rumors. From what I know lacquering is being outsourced and the final buffing is done in the shop. That’s all I know and have been told.





Blytheryn said:


> I remember someone saying something about not seeing many builds on the wall, and Randy entertaining the idea of them being ghost built. I’m just trying to quell the rumors. From what I know lacquering is being outsourced and the final buffing is done in the shop. That’s all I know and have been told.



It was me who posted that. Not trying to start a rumour or anything. I visited early on in 2018, March or April I think. There were only 3-4 half-built guitars on the wall, and not much sign of stuff ongoing. The other guitars on the wall were all finished models which were back in the shop for servicing or upgrading. I played a couple. It was nothing like in that video with 10+ guitars. 

I assume he does work in batches, so I was probably just there at a quiet time between batches.


----------



## Blytheryn

Flappydoodle said:


> It was me who posted that. Not trying to start a rumour or anything. I visited early on in 2018, March or April I think. There were only 3-4 half-built guitars on the wall, and not much sign of stuff ongoing. The other guitars on the wall were all finished models which were back in the shop for servicing or upgrading. I played a couple. It was nothing like in that video with 10+ guitars.
> 
> I assume he does work in batches, so I was probably just there at a quiet time between batches.



This video was shot in February of 2018. I can confirm he does work in batches. I think usually nowadays of 10-15 guitars? Don’t quote me on that but I did hear he increased the batch size a while ago. He probably finished the woodwork on all the ones on the wall and sent them off for finishing or something.


----------



## mehegama

This is indeed a weird case. 1. because it is the first case I ve seen with quality issues on a daemoness and 2. The combination of obvious flaws and the excuses just do not make sense coming from a reputable builder like daemoness. I hope maybe Dylan can give a response on this. As i m 16 months since I sent my deposit, I must admit I m a bit shaken by this story.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

were there 2 black w/green pinstripe?

edit: nevermind….1:45


----------



## narad

M3CHK1LLA said:


> were there 2 black w/green pinstripe?
> 
> edit: nevermind….1:45




Ah, I was honestly hoping the green pinstripes "popped" more in person, but they look a bit forest-green in the vid. Anyway, great to see someone so insanely hyped for his own guitars...he's conquered GAS.


----------



## Merrekof

narad said:


> he's conquered GAS.


Impossible!!


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Just caught wind of this thread....and man that stinks that after 5 years you get something that looked like it came out of any old factory. :/

I feel your pain as I too am just about at the 5 year mark with the luthier. I have to say its been an anxiety producing process. Five years with low to no communication about what is going on with your build I have found to be particularly frustrating which is characteristic of putting in a build request with the maker. Lately communication from Barnes has been particularly cool. And I figured endorsement/artist builds were in fact taking precedent over other customer builds.

Its rough but I'm glad Daemoness had enough integrity to refund you. Now I'm a bit worried about what, if anything, I will get. <gulp>


----------



## Velokki

I would never wait 5 years for an instrument. My preferences will have changed so many times by then! 2 years is MAX.

And even then the 2 years would only apply for a Wal bass. That I could wait a while for.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Velokki said:


> I would never wait 5 years for an instrument. My preferences will have changed so many times by then! 2 years is MAX.
> 
> And even then the 2 years would only apply for a Wal bass. That I could wait a while for.



In the beginning, I was initially told it would only take 2 years. True story. In the meantime there have been 2 other high end guitars that I wanted to pickup but resisted due to this build.


----------



## Karg

Waiting 5 years for a guitar? That should be red flag right there. I really don't trust any of these random guitar makers. They are not really held to any standards, and your guitar might come out looking terrible after multiple year wait times. To me a lot of these places are made by a guy who has moderate woodworking experience, and then decides one day to open a guitar shop where they can sell their guitars for thousands of dollars. Throw in the ridiculous wait times and the whole thing sounds like a scam to me.


----------



## Darkscience

5 years for that? WTF? Dude raise hell! You got robbed.


----------



## spudmunkey

Karg said:


> Waiting 5 years for a guitar? That should be red flag right there.



My brother's on year 7 or 8 of a custom rifle build.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> Lately communication from Barnes has been particularly cool. And I figured endorsement/artist builds were in fact taking precedent over other customer builds.



You have been speaking to Barnes recently....may I ask how recently? He had left the business a few months back. Maybe he's back on board? I haven't heard anything on that score.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

IbanezDaemon said:


> You have been speaking to Barnes recently....may I ask how recently? He had left the business a few months back. Maybe he's back on board? I haven't heard anything on that score.



And that would be news to me. Wow.

So I sent him an email last week. And also 2 quite a few months ago. I have no idea who to contact now.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> And that would be news to me. Wow.
> 
> So I sent him an email last week. And also 2 quite I few months ago. I have no idea who to contact now.



Have you tried the new email address? I posted it in the Daemoness thread on here.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

IbanezDaemon said:


> Have you tried the new email address? I posted it in the Daemoness thread on here.



Not yet. Which page is it on if you don't mind me asking?


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> Not yet. Which page is it on if you don't mind me asking?



I'll link you man...gimme 2 mins.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> Not yet. Which page is it on if you don't mind me asking?



Here you go [email protected] hope this helps! If you don't get a reply hit me up.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

IbanezDaemon said:


> Here you go [email protected] hope this helps! If you don't get a reply hit me up.



Awesome! Big thanks man.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> Awesome! Big thanks man.



Most welcome! Let me know how you get on sure. The whole Covid-19 thing has put operations on the back foot for a while but things are back up and running again.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

IbanezDaemon said:


> Most welcome! Let me know how you get on sure. The whole Covid-19 thing has put operations on the back foot for a while but things are back up and running again.



Good to know.

And I will. Just sent out the email moments ago.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Karg said:


> Throw in the ridiculous wait times and the whole thing sounds like a scam to me.



Yes..the wait times are long...over long in fact...that's the way it is. A scam though? What are you basing your opinion on? Everyone that has seen the wait time through has got their guitars...approx 150 of them in circulation now. Where is the scam?


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> Good to know.
> 
> And I will. Just sent out the email moments ago.



Cool! Hope you hear something back asap. If you don't let me know and I will try my best to help out.
What did you order...Cimmerian? I'd be interested to know.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

IbanezDaemon said:


> Cool! Hope you hear something back asap. If you don't let me know and I will try my best to help out.
> What did you order...Cimmerian? I'd be interested to know.



I ordered a 7 string Cimmerian with fret board inlay work to be done. Conceptually, the guitar is going to be very green-dotty, if you get my drift, with a touch of something ancient.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> I ordered a 7 string Cimmerian with fret board inlay work to be done. Conceptually, the guitar is going to be very green-dotty, if you get my drift, with a touch of something ancient.



Sounds really cool! I'm intrigued. On the wait time....sit tight. We're all in the same boat. I have builds 2 builds in this batch...dunno when they will start....timber has been bought. They are overdue as well. All good things to those who wait.


----------



## spudmunkey

spudmunkey said:


> My brother's on year 7 or 8 of a custom rifle build.



Got clarity. In 11 more weeks, it'll be 8 years.


----------



## Velokki

spudmunkey said:


> My brother's on year 7 or 8 of a custom rifle build.



There are some custom areas that have notoriously long processes when it comes to custom builds, and I've heard that a fully custom rifle is a really complex operation. Not sure if 8 years is okay, though =DDD And whatever were your brother's expectations


----------



## KnightBrolaire

spudmunkey said:


> Got clarity. In 11 more weeks, it'll be 8 years.


lmao what a joke


----------



## spudmunkey

Velokki said:


> There are some custom areas that have notoriously long processes when it comes to custom builds, and I've heard that a fully custom rifle is a really complex operation. Not sure if 8 years is okay, though =DDD And whatever were your brother's expectations



Would it suprise you to learn that it involves carbon fiber?


----------



## Velokki

IbanezDaemon said:


> Sounds really cool! I'm intrigued. On the wait time....sit tight. We're all in the same boat. I have builds 2 builds in this batch...dunno when they will start....timber has been bought. They are overdue as well. All good things to those who wait.



Can I ask you, IbanezDaemon, how you are so much into Daemoness? Maybe even obsessed to them? What do you like about them so much. And do you think that the price and waiting time justify all the benefits? Genuinely interested. I've never played one of these.



spudmonkey said:


> Would it suprise you to learn that it involves carbon fiber?



I didn't know Etherial was into making guns, too...

...hope he builds guns better than guitars, lol!


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Velokki said:


> Can I ask you, IbanezDaemon, how you are so much into Daemoness? Maybe even obsessed to them?



Jeez.!! Lol!! Obsessed?? Define Obsessed to me. How do you think I am obsessed by them? I l have bought a few of their guitars. I like the brand and the work that Dylan does. The wait time is crazy and Dylan needs to rethink the whole process if you ask me. Are they the best guitars in the world....no! At a certain level of attention to detail you could throw a dart at a lot of high end boutique stuff...it all boils down to personal preference. I have been through the wait time and it is way too long, Dylan's communication skills leave a lot to be desired...he has admitted that himself. I do believe that the whole thing could be run better.

When I first came across Daemoness guitars over 10 years ago the wait time was like 6-9 months and I thought no way I am going through that. More and more really cool builds then kept getting posted so I then ordered after hesitating for a couple of years and the wait time had shot up to around 3 years. I didn't even get my guitars inside 3 years either. 

I think the price does justify what you are getting from Dylan considering what you will pay for some other high end custom shop or off the peg limited runs from ESP, Jackson etc. There is no guitar on the planet worth waiting 5 years for...that cannot be justified...I don't care who is building it...you can go and order from a lot of custom shops with a turnaround time of at least half that and get just as good a quality of instrument. If you want a Daemoness you simply just have to sit out that wait time. In the future maybe that time will come down but he would really need to get a lot more hands on board to do that and I really don't know if Dylan would be cool if if builds were being done without him being involved in the majority of the work on them. I hope this has answered some of your questions.


----------



## Velokki

IbanezDaemon said:


> Jeez.!! Lol!! Obsessed?? Define Obsessed to me. How do you think I am obsessed by them? I l have bought a few of their guitars. I like the brand and the work that Dylan does. The wait time is crazy and Dylan needs to rethink the whole process if you ask me. Are they the best guitars in the world....no! At a certain level of attention to detail you could throw a dart at a lot of high end boutique stuff...it all boils down to personal preference. I have been through the wait time and it is way too long, Dylan's communication skills leave a lot to be desired...he has admitted that himself. I do believe that the whole thing could be run better.
> 
> When I first came across Daemoness guitars over 10 years ago the wait time was like 6-9 months and I thought no way I am going through that. More and more really cool builds then kept getting posted so I then ordered after hesitating for a couple of years and the wait time had shot up to around 3 years. I didn't even get my guitars inside 3 years either.
> 
> I think the price does justify what you are getting from Dylan considering what you will pay for some other high end custom shop or off the peg limited runs from ESP, Jackson etc. There is no guitar on the planet worth waiting 5 years for...that cannot be justified...I don't care who is building it...you can go and order from a lot of custom shops with a turnaround time of at least half that and get just as good a quality of instrument. If you want a Daemoness you simply just have to sit out that wait time. In the future maybe that time will come down but he would really need to get a lot more hands on board to do that and I really don't know if Dylan would be cool if if builds were being done without him being involved in the majority of the work on them. I hope this has answered some of your questions.



Thanks for the reply!
Well, the forum nick + picture in the signature.... also you always seem to be there when Daemoness is mentioned, haha!  That's why I thought you might be a bit obsessed with the brand.

Good thoughts. It's really a shame how some luthiers can't communicate and keep deadlines. Or are just sucky businessmen. One luthier that is impeccable in regards to build quality, is Feline Guitars. Jonathan's really an amazing builder. But business and communication skills are pretty much nonexistent. I wish those kind of top builders could always have a business team behind them. Once I got in contact with Feline, I had a great experience, but getting in contact was hard. No answer to emails that I had sent during the previous year. I messaged him personally on FB, we chatted and called, he was a top guy and got a B6 immediately.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Velokki said:


> Thanks for the reply!
> Well, the forum nick + picture in the signature.... also you always seem to be there when Daemoness is mentioned, haha!  That's why I thought you might be a bit obsessed with the brand.
> 
> Good thoughts. It's really a shame how some luthiers can't communicate and keep deadlines. Or are just sucky businessmen. One luthier that is impeccable in regards to build quality, is Feline Guitars. Jonathan's really an amazing builder. But business and communication skills are pretty much nonexistent. I wish those kind of top builders could always have a business team behind them. Once I got in contact with Feline, I had a great experience, but getting in contact was hard. No answer to emails that I had sent during the previous year. I messaged him personally on FB, we chatted and called, he was a top guy and got a B6 immediately.



Yes. I would chat about them a good bit on here but that's really just trying to help people out as I do have some experience with the brand and the wait times. I'd actually chat a lot more about Ibanez guitars online than Daemoness.

Totally agree with you on the communication thing with some of these guys. I've heard that as well about Jonathan at Feline on numerous occasions. Guys were inquiring about builds and never heard back. You'd think they would take a few hours of their working week and sit down and reply to people. Doug Campbell is basically unreachable I think...you can't even get one of his guitars without being carefully selected. I think he has other priorities to be fair and to a large extent has distanced himself from the whole guitar building thing. Dylan is just not a social media guy at all...he hates it. He def needs somebody on board again to handle that side of things. Barnes was very useful at that....always quick to reply to messages. Now I'm not sure if Barnes is back on board or what. I haven't spoken to him in a few months. Dylan is supposed to ring me this week for an update on things. I'll be very surprised if he actually does...he's just like that. It's understandable to a point as he has told me before that he is always busy beyond belief. I'd be the complete opposite...if I say I'm going to do something or contact somebody I will do it 100% without fail. For other people like me who are punctual, the lack of replies and builds running way over time would drive you mad...lol!


----------



## mehegama

that's just so annoying. I ve been trying to get in touch via all platforms available (new email, fb, ig, site form) and simply getting no answer. i m in 26 months so needed an update getting near the 30th month but hearing that the 30 months are in reality 60... if that is the case i m super disappointed.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> that's just so annoying. I ve been trying to get in touch via all platforms available (new email, fb, ig, site form) and simply getting no answer. i m in 26 months so needed an update getting near the 30th month but hearing that the 30 months are in reality 60... if that is the case i m super disappointed.



Something has really broken down. I emailed Dylan recently and we had tentatively arranged to skype today. In the email he mentioned that there were alot of changes and challenges to how he is doing business these days. Come the time we were supposed to skype today, nothing happened. No email of cancellation, or anything like that.

I mentioned as an alternate we could do a weekday this week, but it would have been nice to get some notice that he couldn't do today as we had planned or even just a reschedule. Not exactly sure what to make of it all but like I said, some things have seem to have really broken down over on his end.


----------



## prlgmnr

I should have spent that 600 quid on a bottle of rare whisky or something.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

The old "took too many orders" problem. 

It's great having that many in the queue, but if something happens all the problems are compounded. 

Dylan could not have predicted COVID19, but it could have equally been a tumble down the stairs, a careless driver, an inattentive chef, or a bolt of lightning. When you run so thin, you're bound to get fucked by the universe eventually. 

It's really a shame, as thier reputation was practically without blemish for nearly a decade, which is an eternity in this business. 

Hopefully they can work thier way out of it.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

prlgmnr said:


> I should have spent that 600 quid on a bottle of rare whisky or something.



Feeling the same way...




MaxOfMetal said:


> Dylan could not have predicted COVID19, but it could have equally been a tumble down the stairs, a careless driver, an inattentive chef, or a bolt of lightning. When you run so thin, you're bound to get fucked by the universe eventually.



And at first I thought it wouldn't have been that big of a deal since my turn around was initially for 2 years. If I was told rather the turn around was to be 5 years, I would have been like 'well nice talkin' to ya, bye...'. And as things have unfolded, times are now a bit precarious...

I was particularly optimistic too when I made the order since I had just come off a build that went extremely well with a reasonable turn around time, price, and a product that came out, overall, pretty darn good. After going through this, and also learning a lot about what makes a guitar good these past few years, I think this will be the last custom-boutique order that I embark on. I just hope it ends well.


----------



## Velokki

Bettershredthandead said:


> Feeling the same way...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And at first I thought it wouldn't have been that big of a deal since my turn around was initially for 2 years. If I was told rather the turn around was to be 5 years, I would have been like 'well nice talkin' to ya, bye...'. And as things have unfolded, times are now a bit precarious...
> 
> I was particularly optimistic too when I made the order since I had just come off a build that went extremely well with a reasonable turn around time, price, and a product that came out, overall, pretty darn good. After going through this, and also learning a lot about what makes a guitar good these past few years, I think this will be the last custom-boutique order that I embark on. I just hope it ends well.



Oh I feel ya... how much easier is it to just get a great ESP, Ibanez, or even a used custom shop guitar? I might get a new Aristides down the line, but other than that, I think I'm completely over with custom shop stuff, too. Just too much hassle, stress and huge price tags.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Velokki said:


> Oh I feel ya... how much easier is it to just get a great ESP, Ibanez, or even a used custom shop guitar? I might get a new Aristides down the line, but other than that, I think I'm completely over with custom shop stuff, too. Just too much hassle, stress and huge price tags.



Dude, word. 

Its funny too because when I started doing boutique-custom shop orders 5 years ago, everyone was so cynical about factory builds, saying the pricing and quality and overall service is better with small shops. However after treading down these paths, the conclusion I have made is that the big names still deliver well. One way or another. Even with the custom-boutique order I did 5 years ago that went well, that guitar really doesn't play or sound better than almost any used MIJ Jackson or Ibanez you'll pull off the shelf at a Guitar Center. I still have all my old MIJ Jackson and Ibanez's in my collection after all these years and now appreciate them even more for what they are and are capable of doing. Especially at the prices you can pick them up at.

Even Ibanez still makes new guitars off their Prestige line that are incredibly well priced when factoring current market conditions and with exceptional quality. One of which I've held back on acquiring cause of this build being in the que. Lesson learned.


----------



## Flappydoodle

God, seeing this bumped and revisiting this is just depressing

Obviously the guitar looks like complete shit, which is disappointing

But the lack of any real explanation is baffling. "Eye strain". Rofl. Eye strain on the specific days when he cut the frets, installed the bridge, filed the frets, did the pinstripes, did the buffing, did the QC, packed the guitar for shipping... it's just such a transparently bullshit excuse.

Either Dylan is totally losing his skills, or something went very wrong with this specific guitar, and obviously they're not being truthful about it.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> God, seeing this bumped and revisiting this is just depressing
> 
> Obviously the guitar looks like complete shit, which is disappointing
> 
> But the lack of any real explanation is baffling. "Eye strain". Rofl. Eye strain on the specific days when he cut the frets, installed the bridge, filed the frets, did the pinstripes, did the buffing, did the QC, packed the guitar for shipping... it's just such a transparently bullshit excuse.
> 
> Either Dylan is totally losing his skills, or something went very wrong with this specific guitar, and obviously they're not being truthful about it.



The guitar was in numerous photo shoots until...it wasn't, and then this shows up. 

If I had to guess I'd say the original guitar was either damaged somehow or there was a fatal material flaw noticed only at the end and the instrument we see in this thread was the hasty rebuild/rework. 

I've seen that happen with other builders, an order that's behind in queue, the customer chomping at the bit, it's all ready to go, you even tell the customer it's already shipped, and BAM something major happens/is noticed and you need to get something out the door ASAP lest you admit not everything is okay and you told a lie. 

That's my take.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> The guitar was in numerous photo shoots until...it wasn't, and then this shows up.
> 
> If I had to guess I'd say the original guitar was either damaged somehow or there was a fatal material flaw noticed only at the end and the instrument we see in this thread was the hasty rebuild/rework.
> 
> I've seen that happen with other builders, an order that's behind in queue, the customer chomping at the bit, it's all ready to go, you even tell the customer it's already shipped, and BAM something major happens/is noticed and you need to get something out the door ASAP lest you admit not everything is okay and you told a lie.
> 
> That's my take.



Can't wait until someone accuses you of wild conspiracy theories, rofl

And yeah, I agree. That seems the most likely theory to me. It's a stunningly bad display of judgment on the part of Daemoness, but it's the only thing which reasonably explains the current situation.

Just gotta keep an eye on the new builds coming from them and make sure this really is a one-off, not a sign of things to come.


----------



## prlgmnr

That's not really a conspiracy theory, just a possible explanation.

My conspiracy theory is that it was an attempt to cut down the queue by putting people off going through with a build.


----------



## mehegama

if someone can somehow get in touch with him, can he ask him to come clear about the waiting times and the whole situation? if it is 60 months, it is what it is, but i would like to know that, so i manage my expectations.


----------



## sleewell

yeah i am just to stick to my cheap production guitars that i can get in a few days, not half a decade. small builder syndrome is not anything i want to sign myself up for if this is the stuff you get after that long. i probably don't even want to know how much something like this cost. makes no sense to me, but as stated i am not the target market for this stuff.


----------



## Flappydoodle

prlgmnr said:


> That's not really a conspiracy theory, just a possible explanation.
> 
> My conspiracy theory is that it was an attempt to cut down the queue by putting people off going through with a build.



I got accused of pushing illogical conspiracy theories when I posted four words of speculating that Dylan might have outsourced something, which would explain the unusually shit quality of this guitar. That’s even though I made one post on page 8 (4 weeks after OP posted his NGD.) References to the Loch Ness monster were made. Seems some people are overly defensive. 

Weird thing is - why are Daemoness still taking deposits and telling people 30 months? Unless there are massive efficiency improvements in the pipeline, that seems optimistic to the point of just being a total lie. If the build queue is impossibly large, if they just gave people a realistic estimate, I bet a good number would willingly drop out. 

Problem is, Dylan clearly gives priorities and the build queue is not as fair as it is portrayed. Loads of artists have got guitars, and I doubt they were putting deposits down in 2014-15. There are also some YouTube guys I know of who are receiving Daemoness guitars, again jumping the queue. 

Even more disturbing that OP paid the full cost of the guitar and didn’t get it for 18 months after. 

The £600 isn’t a big deal to me, but I was looking forward to a guitar in 2021, but it’s certainly not going to happen.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> I got accused of pushing illogical conspiracy theories when I posted four words of speculating that Dylan might have outsourced something, which would explain the unusually shit quality of this guitar. That’s even though I made one post on page 8 (4 weeks after OP posted his NGD.) References to the Loch Ness monster were made. Seems some people are overly defensive.



Yes, it still sounds like a conspiracy theory, especially when tying in the idea of Dylan outsourcing it to some ghost builder. And didn't help that you ended the post with ~ it looks like the same guitar, "But who really knows". It seems like a prehistoric creature the size of a bus wouldn't be alive today, living out its life in a single body of water in Scotland, the last of its kind, while failing to be captured in detail by any sort of imaging technology, but who really knows?

Dan at Oni was setting up my guitar for final photos when it tipped over and smashed on the floor. He said, yea, this happened, it'll take a while to refinish it. From the builder's pov that seems like a lot easier than ...shit... gotta buy time... can't build it myself (have too many artist builds)... have to ignore the emails....find another bulider....maybe aliexpress.....


----------



## mehegama

Flappydoodle said:


> Problem is, Dylan clearly gives priorities and the build queue is not as fair as it is portrayed. Loads of artists have got guitars, and I doubt they were putting deposits down in 2014-15. There are also some YouTube guys I know of who are receiving Daemoness guitars, again jumping the queue.


Can we get some info on the queue jumping ? He needs to inform us if the 30 months are still valid. At 15 months I was told by Barnes: "We’re halfway there I’d say, and our estimate of 30 months to commence the build is going to be about right with our current workload". Is this still on?


----------



## R34CH

Flappydoodle said:


> Problem is, Dylan clearly gives priorities and the build queue is not as fair as it is portrayed. Loads of artists have got guitars, and I doubt they were putting deposits down in 2014-15. There are also some YouTube guys I know of who are receiving Daemoness guitars, again jumping the queue.



No horse in this race at all - mainly just a spectator of the Instagram because the pictures are pretty. However, I think he's mentioned a couple times that artist builds were done after hours in his free time where he normally wouldn't be working on customer builds.

Take from that what you will. Can't comment on the YouTube people - had never heard that. At some point maybe this should transition to the actual Daemoness thread?


----------



## frogman81

MaxOfMetal said:


> The guitar was in numerous photo shoots until...it wasn't, and then this shows up.
> 
> If I had to guess I'd say the original guitar was either damaged somehow or there was a fatal material flaw noticed only at the end and the instrument we see in this thread was the hasty rebuild/rework.
> 
> I've seen that happen with other builders, an order that's behind in queue, the customer chomping at the bit, it's all ready to go, you even tell the customer it's already shipped, and BAM something major happens/is noticed and you need to get something out the door ASAP lest you admit not everything is okay and you told a lie.
> 
> That's my take.



OP here. While the rebuild is possible, I think it’s an unlikely explanation. After speaking at length about the guitar on Skype with Barnes after he left Daemoness, there wasn’t really any hints at that (or outsourcing or anything else weird) having happened. My theory had been that Barnes largely built it, but he (Barnes) still maintains that he didn’t get involved more than some rough sanding and wiring. Barnes did admit to identifying flaws in the guitar that had to be rectified while it was still at the shop. My best attempt to explain the situation is that Dylan was focused on Kyle’s guitar and Vitriol’s tour and all the band promo stuff he was doing at the time, and my guitar was just another sausage to push out the end of the factory by that point and he didn’t really care about it.

I should mention that I could have easily taken the pics in flattering light and sold it to everyone here as an amazing build. Though the flaws were significant, as many people know, photographing them was still quite difficult. It was easier to take pics at the right angle that showed a glossy reflection than it was to catch the buffing swirls in the light. I could have easily given the guitar the instagram model treatment and made it look awesome. I think this explains the great pics Dylan shared of it. It’s no secret that he’s quite savvy at social media. In fact, the devil on my shoulder suggested doing just that and then just selling it off to the next Joe Schmo. I didn’t do that of course, but this experience reinforces my belief that it happens a lot in this weird boutique guitar world.

Random trivia - after getting back to the shop, the guitar was rebuffed, routed, had a neck pickup installed, and shipped off to another customer. I have just been waiting for it to appear as a NGD on here.


----------



## Adieu

frogman81 said:


> To answer your question, yes - the guitar was picked up just now and is on its way back to Daemoness. I'll post a detailed follow-up of the transaction and my thoughts when the money is back in my account.
> 
> 
> 
> Here you go.
> 
> View attachment 74369



Wth? Why are there bewbies inside the control cavity of a plainly finished black lowend Ibanez RG knockoff???


----------



## Blytheryn

Adieu said:


> Wth? Why are there bewbies inside the control cavity of a plainly finished black lowend Ibanez RG knockoff???



He tends to do cavity art on all his builds nowadays. Think of it like a "flavor text" for a guitar. I think it's pretty rad.


----------



## mbardu

Adieu said:


> Wth? Why are there bewbies inside the control cavity of a *plainly finished black lowend Ibanez RG knockoff*???



I see you're in this thread to make friends


----------



## Adieu

mbardu said:


> I see you're in this thread to make friends



I thought he returned it cuz it sucked? Or am I confusing two threads?


----------



## Flappydoodle

mbardu said:


> I see you're in this thread to make friends



I mean, for this guitar he isn’t wrong

Any Indonesian Ibanez is literally better quality than this Daemoness :/


----------



## narad

All aboard the hyperbole train, destination: literally any guitar is better than this Daemoness!


----------



## Adieu

narad said:


> All aboard the hyperbole train, destination: literally any guitar is better than this Daemoness!



Idk about that, but the probably-Chinese $99 shipped musicyo Kramer strat copy I got as a present for my cousin some 20 years ago was DEFINITELY much nicer

For starters, there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Anywhere.


----------



## narad

Adieu said:


> Idk about that, but the probably-Chinese $99 shipped musicyo Kramer strat copy I got as a present for my cousin some 20 years ago was DEFINITELY much nicer
> 
> For starters, there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. Anywhere.



By that logic it's better than 90% of all high-end custom guitars I receive. Guess musicyo is better than Suhr now.


----------



## bzhang9

frogman81 said:


> Random trivia - after getting back to the shop, the guitar was rebuffed, routed, had a neck pickup installed, and shipped off to another customer. I have just been waiting for it to appear as a NGD on here.



Unless it was sold for dirt cheap, which I doubt, that is a dirty move, them knowing all the issues with that guitar. 
A lot of people are not so keen on finding defects and just end up accepting a subpar guitar. They are just looking for someone gullible to unload this junk.
This whole thing is super shady, pushing out garbage after all these years fully knowing they are pushing out garbage
Totally lost respect for this brand


----------



## narad

Honestly I would have bought this guitar in a heartbeat if he fixed the finish and the rest of it. Not at full custom price but say $2500?


----------



## bifftannen

Hi all. I’ll probably get ripped for this, but I’m going to tell you about my experience anyway.

I put in my order just before the order book closed in 2015. I was informed that the build would cost in the region of £2400 with a 24-27 month wait time (I went back and checked the email). I went with this, but it was over three years before they even got a start on it. Also, somewhere during this time there seemed to be a price hike so my original quote of £2400 was coming in at €4500 or a little more (note the second figure is in euro). By the time it would have arrived out to me it would have been roughly a four year wait. Then there was a serious mistake with the body shape which made up my mind to cancel the order which was in early 2019. I know that Dylan and Barnes are snowed under with work and that the details of my build probably got lost in the mix and that it was a genuine mistake but at this money, along with the price hike and the wait, I decided to cancel my order. In the end I just cut my losses with the non-refundable deposit and I was relieved to have done it.

It didn’t help that I spoke to a person who owned a daemoness and when I asked that person ‘was it the best he’s ever played?’ (because it would want to be at that price), whether he knew it or not, he seemed to adopt a rabbit-in-the-headlights look because I told him I dropped a deposit. He then went on to praise an Ibanez prestige at length as his favourite axe which was disconcerting. Sometime later I noticed that his Daemoness appeared on Reverb.

As for myself, I am very much over this boutique custom guitar craze and maybe even against it. Many of us feel like we need the best piece of kit out there to get “that tone in our heads”. On this level it can just be tone chasing gone crazy. And functionally/sonically speaking if you can’t get the sound you’re looking for out of a decent production guitar then perhaps the problem lies elsewhere. But if it’s your personal wish to spend a certain amount of money on a custom guitar then best of luck to you and I hope it works out.

Daemoness makes some of the best guitars we’ve ever seen/heard and I’m not having a go at Dylan and Barnes, they are both bright and very personable people, but I think it might be worth considering that there is something unsustainable about the way Daemoness is doing things. It’s just not fair on the customer at times. 

I'm not into forums but I'll check back and answer reasonable questions.


----------



## bzhang9

bifftannen said:


> Hi all. I’ll probably get ripped for this, but I’m going to tell you about my experience anyway.
> 
> I put in my order just before the order book closed in 2015. I was informed that the build would cost in the region of £2400 with a 24-27 month wait time (I went back and checked the email). I went with this, but it was over three years before they even got a start on it. Also, somewhere during this time there seemed to be a price hike so my original quote of £2400 was coming in at €4500 or a little more (note the second figure is in euro). By the time it would have arrived out to me it would have been roughly a four year wait. Then there was a serious mistake with the body shape which made up my mind to cancel the order which was in early 2019. I know that Dylan and Barnes are snowed under with work and that the details of my build probably got lost in the mix and that it was a genuine mistake but at this money, along with the price hike and the wait, I decided to cancel my order. In the end I just cut my losses with the non-refundable deposit and I was relieved to have done it.
> 
> It didn’t help that I spoke to a person who owned a daemoness and when I asked that person ‘was it the best he’s ever played?’ (because it would want to be at that price), whether he knew it or not, he seemed to adopt a rabbit-in-the-headlights look because I told him I dropped a deposit. He then went on to praise an Ibanez prestige at length as his favourite axe which was disconcerting. Sometime later I noticed that his Daemoness appeared on Reverb.
> 
> As for myself, I am very much over this boutique custom guitar craze and maybe even against it. Many of us feel like we need the best piece of kit out there to get “that tone in our heads”. On this level it can just be tone chasing gone crazy. And functionally/sonically speaking if you can’t get the sound you’re looking for out of a decent production guitar then perhaps the problem lies elsewhere. But if it’s your personal wish to spend a certain amount of money on a custom guitar then best of luck to you and I hope it works out.
> 
> Daemoness makes some of the best guitars we’ve ever seen/heard and I’m not having a go at Dylan and Barnes, they are both bright and very personable people, but I think it might be worth considering that there is something unsustainable about the way Daemoness is doing things. It’s just not fair on the customer at times.
> 
> I'm not into forums but I'll check back and answer reasonable questions.



is putting down a deposit not a contract to build a specified guitar at a specified price and specified time frame? Seems like they went 0 for 3, and missed badly. That much of a price hike after putting a deposit down is straight up illegal. Pay more money or lose your deposit? Real shady business...

Sounds like a lot more people have had issues with this company but never spoke up, as everyone with a daemoness would probably bash them to protect the company and their guitar's value, which is very much based on reputation, a thread like this can empower people to tell the truth



narad said:


> Honestly I would have bought this guitar in a heartbeat if he fixed the finish and the rest of it. Not at full custom price but say $2500?



hype and resale value aside, I would rather have a $300 MIJ RG7421


----------



## Bettershredthandead

bifftannen said:


> Hi all. I’ll probably get ripped for this, but I’m going to tell you about my experience anyway.I put in my order just before the order book closed in 2015. I was informed that the build would cost in the region of £2400 with a 24-27 month wait time (I went back and checked the email). I went with this, but it was over three years before they even got a start on it. Also, somewhere during this time there seemed to be a price hike so my original quote of £2400 was coming in at €4500 or a little more (note the second figure is in euro). By the time it would have arrived out to me it would have been roughly a four year wait. Then there was a serious mistake with the body shape which made up my mind to cancel the order which was in early 2019. I know that Dylan and Barnes are snowed under with work and that the details of my build probably got lost in the mix and that it was a genuine mistake but at this money, along with the price hike and the wait, I decided to cancel my order. In the end I just cut my losses with the non-refundable deposit and I was relieved to have done it



Well said...

I too asked for a refund seeing where things were going a while back, also being quoted the quick turnaround time initially which turned into the whole 5 year thing. The price hike too also happened, initially being quoted around the same as to what you wrote. But since they said non refundable I decided to go with it. The only justification I can provide for continuing to go forth with the build at this point is that sometimes in your life you just are willing to go out to have something made just to your liking, just the way you want, that's truly unique/one of a kind.

What Dylan offers seemed to me from the start truly unique and special. Not to mention a very true custom shop experience with little to no boundaries as to what would be possible. Otherwise I wouldn't have approached him for a build. 'Metal guitars for metalers' as he says every now and then. However I also noticed a few builds here and there popping up on sites that clearly were occurring right after completion and receipt. And now seeing this thread doesn't help.

Dylan and I have been sending out messages here and there to each other. The Skype thing just doesn't seem to be happening. Not that I really need another skype session with him per se, but it theoretically shows how hampered he may be with things these days. If that's the case. All I can do at this point is hope I get lucky and not end up with a lemon.

I ultimately agree, I think this approach taken by Daemoness is really not good from the business standpoint and clearly not sustainable. Its creating a ton of perception issues and now looks to be causing QA/QC problems.


----------



## bifftannen

bzhang9 said:


> is putting down a deposit not a contract to build a specified guitar at a specified price and specified time frame? Seems like they went 0 for 3, and missed badly. That much of a price hike after putting a deposit down is straight up illegal. Pay more money or lose your deposit? Real shady business...
> 
> Sounds like a lot more people have had issues with this company but never spoke up, as everyone with a daemoness would probably bash them to protect the company and their guitar's value, which is very much based on reputation, a thread like this can empower people to tell the truth
> 
> 
> 
> hype and resale value aside, I would rather have a $300 MIJ RG7421


I can't say whether it was Dylan's intention to be shady or not. If I had to guess I'd say he was/is being extremely optimistic with how fast he can produce his commissions. As for the price hike, I am open to more information on why this might have occurred. 

I do think more people have had issues with Daemoness than we know. My reason for not mentioning it was that I felt that I'd just be shouted down like I know the Kiesel fanboys like to do, and one of the biggest wastes of time is battling randomers online. Then I saw this thread and felt that I had to mention it and I haven't even posted on this forum in about five years!


----------



## bifftannen

Bettershredthandead said:


> Well said...
> 
> I too asked for a refund seeing where things were going a while back, also being quoted the quick turnaround time initially which turned into the whole 5 year thing. The price hike too also happened, initially being quoted around the same as to what you wrote. But since they said non refundable I decided to go with it. The only justification I can provide for continuing to go forth with the build at this point is that sometimes in your life you just are willing to go out to have something made just to your liking, just the way you want, that's truly unique/one of a kind.
> 
> What Dylan offers seemed to me from the start truly unique and special. Not to mention a very true custom shop experience with little to no boundaries as to what would be possible. Otherwise I wouldn't have approached him for a build. 'Metal guitars for metalers' as he says every now and then. However I also noticed a few builds here and there popping up on sites that clearly were occurring right after completion and receipt. And now seeing this thread doesn't help.
> 
> Dylan and I have been sending out messages here and there to each other. The Skype thing just doesn't seem to be happening. Not that I really need another skype session with him per se, but it theoretically shows how hampered he may be with things these days. If that's the case. All I can do at this point is hope I get lucky and not end up with a lemon.
> 
> I ultimately agree, I think this approach taken by Daemoness is really not good from the business standpoint and clearly not sustainable. Its creating a ton of perception issues and now looks to be causing QA/QC problems.


Can you remember why they hiked the price up?

Yes I absolutely understand, I was precisely the same. I wanted something built uniquely for me in terms of specs and aesthetic made by a guy who "gets" metal. And yes, I kept going with the process because my £500 deposit was non-refundable which is a lot of money to just write off. 

Yes I saw that too, there are a few Daemonesses going up for sale soon after they are received. This may or may not be an issue with the guitar, it could also mean that the customer may have played it for a while and figured a guitar simply just isn't worth the guts of five grand.

I hope it all works out for you in the end, keep us posted.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

bifftannen said:


> Can you remember why they hiked the price up?



To be fair, I did change body (flying V 6 string to 7 string Cimmerian) and amount of PUs (1 to 2) of the guitar which is what they said was the reason the price change on mine. However, I thought that did not seem right exactly, as I was always under the impression that body types particularly for solid body guitars, do not necessarily warrant drastic price changes. Neither going from just 1 to 2 PUs. The amount I was quoted for initially was like yours and I put in my build request around the same time. It was going to be a 3500 USD build as opposed to what it is now which is significantly beyond that....

I could be wrong and I'm not sure how much a 7 string Cimmerian build was prior to 2015. I don't think it was 5000 USD. Or maybe it was? Like I said before, it has become very easy to have perception problems with the way the Daemoness process has gone. Further confusing things, is I do remember Dylan alluding to a price hike somewhere on social media.

Maybe someone with better Daemoness pricing history can chime in here, although I do think there was an actual price hike. I don't know the reason...


----------



## panko

My 2 cents as a Daemoness owner:
The price hikes i was told was for the improvements in construction ala graphite rods, better lacquer etc. 

I also had a 5 year wait, but came to expect that. The instrument itself, It plays very well and was setup perfectly and thats the main thing for me, a couple years later, I just slap on new strings and away it goes, no adjustment required. There are minor imperfections in the lacquer finish such as rough spots in the bottom and possibly a misalignment on the tuners but that doest bother me as it serves as a tool and you have to look very hard to spot them. 

my only issue was the lack of transparency in pricing, i did change specs, and requested an invoice all through out the build process, but didnt get one till last minute. the final bill was quite a shock.

I did get another quote later on (a more stripped down basic build than the one i ordered) and the price would have worked out more expensive as there was VAT added, my original build did not have this. so maybe a factor to consider with the price hikes....

i would have ordered again, but had no response (this was a couple of years back) I also emailed recently to the new email address but no response.

must be a british thing, own a BlackMachine, Feline etc, build has there flaws, the comms are not too great either...


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Yes, it still sounds like a conspiracy theory, especially when tying in the idea of Dylan outsourcing it to some ghost builder. And didn't help that you ended the post with ~ it looks like the same guitar, "But who really knows". It seems like a prehistoric creature the size of a bus wouldn't be alive today, living out its life in a single body of water in Scotland, the last of its kind, while failing to be captured in detail by any sort of imaging technology, but who really knows?
> 
> Dan at Oni was setting up my guitar for final photos when it tipped over and smashed on the floor. He said, yea, this happened, it'll take a while to refinish it. From the builder's pov that seems like a lot easier than ...shit... gotta buy time... can't build it myself (have too many artist builds)... have to ignore the emails....find another bulider....maybe aliexpress.....



It was hardly pushing a conspiracy theory with a few speculative sentences.

And sounds like Dan at Oni at least told you the truth, and sorted it out. Something Daemoness apparently didn't do. But then again, when do they do anything the "easy" of common sense way? 

My comment about "if it's the same guitar" was referring to a situation like yours where something happened to the original guitar (which was posted 90% complete on instagram back in 2018). And, so far, there is no reasonable explanation for how that happened, and no honestly from the luthier himself - only takes of eye strain.



mehegama said:


> Can we get some info on the queue jumping ? He needs to inform us if the 30 months are still valid. At 15 months I was told by Barnes: "We’re halfway there I’d say, and our estimate of 30 months to commence the build is going to be about right with our current workload". Is this still on?



I don't have inside information from Daemoness. Last time I talked to Barnes he obviously mentioned that he had left on bad terms, and I should refer questions to Dylan via the new gmail address.

I know about the queue jumping from a friend of mine (UK luthier who knows Dylan well). He didn't "publicly" say anything (i.e. he said it to me, not on social media) so I don't think it's fair to "out" him or tie his name to the claim. But I do believe it's true that artists, YouTubers etc skip the build queue.



R34CH said:


> No horse in this race at all - mainly just a spectator of the Instagram because the pictures are pretty. However, I think he's mentioned a couple times that artist builds were done after hours in his free time where he normally wouldn't be working on customer builds.
> 
> Take from that what you will. Can't comment on the YouTube people - had never heard that. At some point maybe this should transition to the actual Daemoness thread?



That an excuse almost as bad as eye strain, rofl

It's impossible to believe that building 10+ artist guitars have had zero impact on the build queue and someone as apparently busy as he is had all that spare time and production capacity.


----------



## Flappydoodle

panko said:


> My 2 cents as a Daemoness owner:
> The price hikes i was told was for the improvements in construction ala graphite rods, better lacquer etc.
> 
> I also had a 5 year wait, but came to expect that. The instrument itself, It plays very well and was setup perfectly and thats the main thing for me, a couple years later, I just slap on new strings and away it goes, no adjustment required. There are minor imperfections in the lacquer finish such as rough spots in the bottom and possibly a misalignment on the tuners but that doest bother me as it serves as a tool and you have to look very hard to spot them.
> 
> my only issue was the lack of transparency in pricing, i did change specs, and requested an invoice all through out the build process, but didnt get one till last minute. the final bill was quite a shock.
> 
> I did get another quote later on (a more stripped down basic build than the one i ordered) and the price would have worked out more expensive as there was VAT added, my original build did not have this. so maybe a factor to consider with the price hikes....
> 
> i would have ordered again, but had no response (this was a couple of years back) I also emailed recently to the new email address but no response.
> 
> must be a british thing, own a BlackMachine, Feline etc, build has there flaws, the comms are not too great either...



IMO you're probably better off going with someone like Tom Waghorn. He's been in the business longer. He's older and more professional. He has a team to help him, both with building guitar and with running the business. Much less social media hype. No ego or eccentric personality (which Dylan and Doug absolutely do have). You get quick and detailed responses and he is able to work with organising things like Lundgren/Bareknuckle custom pickups, Hipshot multi scale bridges etc. If you can't even get simple replied out of Dylan, it's hard to see him organizing things which require more communication. 

Seeing how downhill things have gone with Daemoness, I wish I'd gone with Tom instead.


----------



## bifftannen

Bettershredthandead said:


> To be fair, I did change body (flying V 6 string to 7 string Cimmerian) and amount of PUs (1 to 2) of the guitar which is what they said was the reason the price change on mine. However, I thought that did not seem right exactly, as I was always under the impression that body types particularly for solid body guitars, do not necessarily warrant drastic price changes. Neither going from just 1 to 2 PUs. The amount I was quoted for initially was like yours and I put in my build request around the same time. It was going to be a 3500 USD build as opposed to what it is now which is significantly beyond that....
> 
> I could be wrong and I'm not sure how much a 7 string Cimmerian build was prior to 2015. I don't think it was 5000 USD. Or maybe it was? Like I said before, it has become very easy to have perception problems with the way the Daemoness process has gone. Further confusing things, is I do remember Dylan alluding to a price hike somewhere on social media.
> 
> Maybe someone with better Daemoness pricing history can chime in here, although I do think there was an actual price hike. I don't know the reason...


I think it raises the question whether it was fair to change the price after we had already agreed to the terms and laid down a non refundable deposit. On the other hand, if my guitar was produced within the timeframe and at the approximate quote I would probably be a very happy customer. I don't know what the quoted wait time and price is now but I hope it is honest and gives fair warning that it will take five years to build and cost roughly €5000. You correctly point out that the way Daemoness are conducted business has generated perception issues and I do agree, you and I are both case in point.

Can anyone tell us what timeframe and cost they are currently quoting?


----------



## bifftannen

panko said:


> My 2 cents as a Daemoness owner:
> The price hikes i was told was for the improvements in construction ala graphite rods, better lacquer etc.
> 
> I also had a 5 year wait, but came to expect that. The instrument itself, It plays very well and was setup perfectly and thats the main thing for me, a couple years later, I just slap on new strings and away it goes, no adjustment required. There are minor imperfections in the lacquer finish such as rough spots in the bottom and possibly a misalignment on the tuners but that doest bother me as it serves as a tool and you have to look very hard to spot them.
> 
> my only issue was the lack of transparency in pricing, i did change specs, and requested an invoice all through out the build process, but didnt get one till last minute. the final bill was quite a shock.
> 
> I did get another quote later on (a more stripped down basic build than the one i ordered) and the price would have worked out more expensive as there was VAT added, my original build did not have this. so maybe a factor to consider with the price hikes....
> 
> i would have ordered again, but had no response (this was a couple of years back) I also emailed recently to the new email address but no response.
> 
> must be a british thing, own a BlackMachine, Feline etc, build has there flaws, the comms are not too great either...


Cheers for the information on the price increase. Yes transparency on pricing and wait time would have actually changed my decision to go with Daemoness. If I knew it would be a four year wait (after reading comments here I think it would have been closer to five) and a €4500-5000 final price tag I most likely would not have put down my deposit at all. 

When it came to writing off my deposit I must mention that Dylan had already got a start on the neck and body so I was semi-ok with them recouping some of their expenses even though they made a mistake with the body shape.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

bifftannen said:


> Can anyone tell us what timeframe and cost they are currently quoting?



This is off the top of my head but I have paid between £3700 and £4000 for recent builds. Now I'm paying VAT of 20% on those included in that price and £100 for a Hiscox case (also included in those prices).


----------



## bifftannen

IbanezDaemon said:


> This is off the top of my head but I have paid between £3700 and £4000 for recent builds. Now I'm paying VAT of 20% on those included in that price and £100 for a Hiscox case (also included in those prices).


Do you know what timeframe and cost they are currently quoting at the start of the process before a customer lays down their deposit?


----------



## IbanezDaemon

bifftannen said:


> Do you know what timeframe and cost they are currently quoting at the start of the process before a customer lays down their deposit?



At the minute...no. I placed my deposits years ago. I think a build from the will run you £2000 base price....then you add on the materials, hardware etc. Of course that is going to be more expensive if you opt for a big fretboard inlay or body graphic. A basic enough, no frills model should be around the £3000 mark.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> I don't have inside information from Daemoness. Last time I talked to Barnes he obviously mentioned that he had left on bad terms, and I should refer questions to Dylan via the new gmail address.



Ah, if Barnes left on bad terms that's bad news. I hadn't heard.



Flappydoodle said:


> I know about the queue jumping from a friend of mine (UK luthier who knows Dylan well). He didn't "publicly" say anything (i.e. he said it to me, not on social media) so I don't think it's fair to "out" him or tie his name to the claim. But I do believe it's true that artists, YouTubers etc skip the build queue.



Surely you could point out what YouTuber allegedly would have jumped queue at least? Artists skip queue, but that's the same with every other builder. You can't earn an endorsement in 2020 and get your first guitar in 2025... that's kinda bizarre marketing and support.


----------



## Merrekof

I've been following this thread for a while now. I get the feeling Deamoness is getting more popular and Dylan is in over his head and he doesn't turn customers down. Or at least put them on a waiting list until he can get a custom guitar built within the year of the first deposit. 

Either that or he needs to hire staff to get more things done at the end of the day.


----------



## dmlinger

Building isn't my job, so I can't comment on what it would be like to rely solely on building guitars for your livelihood. That said, a lot of builders (myself included) only charge a % of the build price as a down payment. This is usually meant to weed out tire kickers, but more importantly it is used to source the materials and hardware needed for the build. Initially, I would "finance" all of my customer builds by sourcing all materials on good faith without a down payment.

To make a deposit non-refundable feels like bad business. Especially with no sunk cost since the builds happen so far in the future. It's a different story if someone tries to cancel after materials are purchased and labor is sunk.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

dmlinger said:


> Building isn't my job, so I can't comment on what it would be like to rely solely on building guitars for your livelihood. That said, a lot of builders (myself included) only charge a % of the build price as a down payment. This is usually meant to weed out tire kickers, but more importantly it is used to source the materials and hardware needed for the build. Initially, I would "finance" all of my customer builds by sourcing all materials on good faith without a down payment.
> 
> To make a deposit non-refundable feels like bad business. Especially with no sunk cost since the builds happen so far in the future. It's a different story if someone tries to cancel after materials are purchased and labor is sunk.



It's good business when output is low. Maybe not ethical if they're not honest about wait times. 

It means you have income as long as you draw folks to the waiting list. 

The problem is, especially with a small operation like this, once you're so deep in the hole (5+ years is pretty fucking deep) list income dwindles and you're back to scrapping by on builds that are long paid for.


----------



## Adieu

narad said:


> Ah, if Barnes left on bad terms that's bad news. I hadn't heard.
> 
> 
> 
> Surely you could point out what YouTuber allegedly would have jumped queue at least? Artists skip queue, but that's the same with every other builder. You can't earn an endorsement in 2020 and get your first guitar in 2025... that's kinda bizarre marketing and support.



It's basic business to let anyone who promotes your sh!t jump the queue and usually skip the paying-for-it part too. Everyone does it.

It's just a little less orthodox to carry on as usual with investing in promotion when you're cleared swamped with delayed orders for years and don't seem to be doing anything to mitigate that mess


----------



## Merrekof

MaxOfMetal said:


> once you're so deep in the hole (5+ years is pretty fucking deep) list income dwindles and you're back to scrapping by on builds that are long paid for.


That's what I meant by "take in a customer when he can build his guitar within the year of the down payment. Or even 1,5 year if he only builds guitars in his spare time. It seems he has a bunch of down payments in his accounts for guitars he'll probably build in idk, 3 years from now?


----------



## panko

Flappydoodle said:


> IMO you're probably better off going with someone like Tom Waghorn. He's been in the business longer. He's older and more professional. He has a team to help him, both with building guitar and with running the business. Much less social media hype. No ego or eccentric personality (which Dylan and Doug absolutely do have). You get quick and detailed responses and he is able to work with organising things like Lundgren/Bareknuckle custom pickups, Hipshot multi scale bridges etc. If you can't even get simple replied out of Dylan, it's hard to see him organizing things which require more communication.
> 
> Seeing how downhill things have gone with Daemoness, I wish I'd gone with Tom instead.



I did consider a waghorn, but I think I'm done with custom builds for now....

did anyone get a strap with there Daemoness? I did request one but never got one sent, doesnt help there is radio silence....


----------



## dmlinger

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's good business when output is low. Maybe not ethical if they're not honest about wait times.



I guess what I meant was it is bad business for the consumer. Definitely agree with the wait time comment...makes the whole thing feel like:

"Hey Customer, give me your money and I'll get to your build when I get to it. I need your non-refundable deposit so I can pay rent."


----------



## Lorcan Ward

When I ordered back in 2012 there was around a 20-24 month build time which I recall being accurate. Dylan had moved to his current workshop and was settled by then. My guitar and the rest of the batch was on track but Phil at Spectrum Finishes became quite sick so he couldn’t work on the guitars which caused big delays. It gave Dylan time to start the next batch of guitars but the batch waiting finishing was then in limbo. I may have my timeline a bit muddled by Phil passed away soon after and Dylan had trouble finding someone at his level to take over the finishing process resulting in more delays. I got my guitar at around 37 months(3 1/2 years) and Dylan was apologetic about the delay.

Since then there’s been other problems, many that were out of his hands which has only further lengthened the build queue. He’s made lots of attempts to bring the waiting list down like building in much bigger batches but that comes with its own issues then too. While artists do get builds much quicker I remember one being a good 24 months from conception to completion. In-stocks like most other builder’s are majority of the time builds that a customer pulled out on. Queue jumping? Dylan has always been adamant against that.

The ultimate goal is to get it down to around 2 years but to clear the back log he’d have to close his waiting list for 3-4+ years and then only take on batches small enough to ensure a strict timeline and then maintain that strict timeline. It’s a difficult thing to achieve and then maintain. There are definitely some problems with the building process and the lengths from start to completion could be heavily reduced along with scraping the deposit until the build queue times are brought way down.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

bifftannen said:


> I think it raises the question whether it was fair to change the price after we had already agreed to the terms and laid down a non refundable deposit. On the other hand, if my guitar was produced within the timeframe and at the approximate quote I would probably be a very happy customer. I don't know what the quoted wait time and price is now but I hope it is honest and gives fair warning that it will take five years to build and cost roughly €5000. You correctly point out that the way Daemoness are conducted business has generated perception issues and I do agree, you and I are both case in point.
> 
> Can anyone tell us what timeframe and cost they are currently quoting?




All of the above....no price transparency, no time-frame transparency. Bottom line: its just not the way to be doing business. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. When I went with Blackat back in 2015 for a custom build, absolutely none of this was an issue. I received my guitar in a timely manner well within a years worth of time and there was no pricing ambiguity. Tomek gets the business end very well...


----------



## prlgmnr

Maybe he could shrink the queue down by offering a few deposits back...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> When I ordered back in 2012 there was around a 20-24 month build time which I recall being accurate. Dylan had moved to his current workshop and was settled by then. My guitar and the rest of the batch was on track but Phil at Spectrum Finishes became quite sick so he couldn’t work on the guitars which caused big delays. It gave Dylan time to start the next batch of guitars but the batch waiting finishing was then in limbo. I may have my timeline a bit muddled by Phil passed away soon after and Dylan had trouble finding someone at his level to take over the finishing process resulting in more delays. I got my guitar at around 37 months(3 1/2 years) and Dylan was apologetic about the delay.
> 
> Since then there’s been other problems, many that were out of his hands which has only further lengthened the build queue. He’s made lots of attempts to bring the waiting list down like building in much bigger batches but that comes with its own issues then too. While artists do get builds much quicker I remember one being a good 24 months from conception to completion. In-stocks like most other builder’s are majority of the time builds that a customer pulled out on. Queue jumping? Dylan has always been adamant against that.
> 
> The ultimate goal is to get it down to around 2 years but to clear the back log he’d have to close his waiting list for 3-4+ years and then only take on batches small enough to ensure a strict timeline and then maintain that strict timeline. It’s a difficult thing to achieve and then maintain. There are definitely some problems with the building process and the lengths from start to completion could be heavily reduced along with scraping the deposit until the build queue times are brought way down.



That's part of the risks of running a business, contractors, suppliers, and employees can fuck you. The world around you can fuck you. 

You have to plan for some of that. Whether that means constantly researching for replacements or building it into your timetables to do later. 

This is just such a common problem, you'd think builders would take this more seriously.


----------



## narad

Bettershredthandead said:


> All of the above....no price transparency, no time-frame transparency. Bottom line: its just not the way to be doing business. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this conversation in the first place. When I went with Blackat back in 2015 for a custom build, absolutely none of this was an issue. I received my guitar in a timely manner well within a years worth of time and there was no pricing ambiguity. Tomek gets the business end very well...



Yea, but you wound up getting a blackat.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

narad said:


> Yea, but you wound up getting a blackat.



Ouch, but yeah I know what you mean. It's a guitar that quite frankly I don't really find any better than my MIJs. Though I did appreciate the lack of anxiety producing business process.


----------



## bifftannen

narad said:


> Yea, but you wound up getting a blackat.


Whatever about the quality of guitar, his point still stands; no matter the builder, he/she should be on top of his/her customer communication, stick to their stated timelines and generally do what they say they are going to do.


----------



## bifftannen

prlgmnr said:


> Maybe he could shrink the queue down by offering a few deposits back...


Perhaps he could propose a deposit refund amnesty and probably close the order book until the backlog is cleared. Having said that, none of us are sure what is going on at Daemoness and maybe he can't to this to keep the business afloat.


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> Yea, but you wound up getting a blackat.


----------



## Hollowway

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is just such a common problem, you'd think builders would take this more seriously.



So much this. And it's not like builders don't necessarily know this starting out. Darren (Decibel) went on and on about how his business was going to be different, and he wasn't going to bite off more than he can chew, etc. But sure enough it happened. (Though, it's clear now that he talks the talk, and is very self centered.)

I don't buy customs anymore because I've been burned too many times. (Well, every couple of years I will, just so I can get burned again for shits and giggles.  )

But, as Max pointed out, most of these builders are a one man operation, and therefore when you put a deposit down you're banking on them 1) staying healthy, 2) staying married, 3) staying enthusiastic about building, 3) not having large car, house, etc. bills, 4) not having the siren song of other business opportunities lure you away, etc. And none of these are even part of the "knowing how to run a business" part of this.

Fundamentally, most full time builders who we all want to get instruments from are artists. Like Daemoness, Padalka, Skervesen, etc. And there is absolutely nothing in the development of art that teaches anything about business. So it's no wonder this stuff happens. On the flip side, you have people who are clearly business minded, and not artists (like the big companies that just churn out the safe, generic builds) that doesn't get any of us excited. There are a few artists who have scaled up enough to have a staff to run the business portion (like Alistair Hay with Emerald) that have really figured this out. But that's pretty rare.

For me, there are still a handful of luthiers out there I'd trust with my money, base strictly on their strong sense of ethics. Brian Bowes, Tom Drinkwater, and a few others are good guys, and barring any catastrophic life event, aren't going to disappear your money. Otherwise, I wish these builders would just build in stock instruments so we can see the pretty stuff, and buy it now.


----------



## bzhang9

whats the point of building for artist for promotion purposes they already have a huge wait list? further delays and a bad business rep just defeats the purpose of promoting.


----------



## oracles

If Barnes is gone, wait times and pricing arent accurate, and contact is scarce to non-existant, I'd be starting to get concerned if I had money tied up in a Daemoness spot. All things that don't bode well for the future.


----------



## mehegama

unfortunately, i m not very optimistic about the situation here.. I think he should seriously consider deposit refunds.


----------



## Merrekof

Hollowway said:


> I wish these builders would just build in stock instruments so we can see the pretty stuff, and buy it now.


This.. really!
If I have to wait 2, 3, 5.. years for a custom guitar, I would've probably changed my mind about specs a dozen of times. I'd rather have a top tier production guitar tbh.


----------



## dmlinger

bifftannen said:


> Perhaps he could propose a deposit refund amnesty and probably close the order book until the backlog is cleared. Having said that, none of us are sure what is going on at Daemoness and maybe he can't to this to keep the business afloat.



Zero chance. That money has already been spent on livelihood. Highly doubt it sits in an account for it to be reconciled and closed once the build is shipped to the customer.


----------



## dmlinger

Merrekof said:


> This.. really!
> If I have to wait 2, 3, 5.. years for a custom guitar, I would've probably changed my mind about specs a dozen of times. I'd rather have a top tier production guitar tbh.



Danocaster does this. He nearly quit building because of all of the custom orders. Now he builds what he likes, posts it as an in-stock, and they sell immediately. I freaking love that model and am happy to see him have that level of customer support. Surely it brings him less stress and more joy in his work.


----------



## mehegama

dmlinger said:


> Zero chance. That money has already been spent on livelihood. Highly doubt it sits in an account for it to be reconciled and closed once the build is shipped to the customer.


Has anyone ever checked the legality of the non refundability of the deposit. Just because he said it, i m not sure it will hold in a small claims court given the timelines he has given. Especially if the real time is double what quoted originally.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

Can't say I'm not a bit apprehensive regarding my deposit now after this discussion - enough that I would really question sending more money when my turn came up (which was supposed to be March / April, but who knows?). Hopefully some clarity on how Daemoness is structuring itself for the current backlog and future comes soon.



mehegama said:


> Has anyone ever checked the legality of the non refundability of the deposit. Just because he said it, i m not sure it will hold in a small claims court given the timelines he has given. Especially if the real time is double what quoted originally.



International small claims court might be a bit of a pain in the ass and likely very cost-prohibitive to even pursue.


----------



## mehegama

I m based in the UK so it would not be that hard for me. I really want to know if the 30 months i was expecting will be in reality 60, but communication seems impossible. Does Dylan know about these threads? I mean he is not interested to come clear on the situation, given the good track record so far?


----------



## bifftannen

mehegama said:


> I m based in the UK so it would not be that hard for me. I really want to know if the 30 months i was expecting will be in reality 60, but communication seems impossible. Does Dylan know about these threads? I mean he is not interested to come clear on the situation, given the good track record so far?


If the OP is anything to go by it might even be over 60 months at this stage and evidence so far also suggests that the end price tag may well be more than what we were quoted (that seems to have happened to me and two others on this thread). 

It would be great to have Dylan come on and explain what's happening to everyone because Daemoness does have a good track record so far and I don't believe that there is any malice behind the issues we've been pointing out, just bad management.

In the interest of fairness, does anyone who has received their daemoness in, say, the past 2-3 years want to chime in if they actually received their commission within the stated time or price range? Maybe there are some different experiences out there than what we've seen.


----------



## Avedas

Hollowway said:


> Otherwise, I wish these builders would just build in stock instruments so we can see the pretty stuff, and buy it now.


That was probably the best decision Abasi ever made.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Avedas said:


> That was probably the best decision Abasi ever made.



It was a hard learned lesson, as it typically is.

To thier credit, they made the shift very well. Not very many brands have the courage to throw it all away, give all the money back, reorganize, and deal with whatever fallout.


----------



## possumkiller

bzhang9 said:


> whats the point of building for artist for promotion purposes they already have a huge wait list? further delays and a bad business rep just defeats the purpose of promoting.


Idk. He started out for a very long time saying no endorsement deals, no sig models, no artist promotion models. To me it just looks like shit got too big and a one man operation will not be able to manage it. 

On the other hand, his silence could mean he is hard at work getting all these guitars built. I really hope so. But we've all hoped the same thing before with other custom builders that went tits up.


----------



## mehegama

possumkiller said:


> Idk. He started out for a very long time saying no endorsement deals, no sig models, no artist promotion models. To me it just looks like shit got too big and a one man operation will not be able to manage it.
> 
> On the other hand, his silence could mean he is hard at work getting all these guitars built. I really hope so. But we've all hoped the same thing before with other custom builders that went tits up.


but ignoring mails is not very professional. These threads would not have been so busy had he taken like 1h to reply some of these. Why let people stress and speculate when you already have a very good track record so far? It does not make sense ignoring a situation like this.


----------



## possumkiller

mehegama said:


> It does not make sense ignoring a situation like this.


It never does but it keeps on happening. The fact that his partner left, he dropped off communication, but apparently still takes deposits is enough of a red flag for me.


----------



## foreright

mehegama said:


> I m based in the UK so it would not be that hard for me. I really want to know if the 30 months i was expecting will be in reality 60, but communication seems impossible. Does Dylan know about these threads? I mean he is not interested to come clear on the situation, given the good track record so far?



The situation in the UK is really quite simple - see here for details: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e-for-consumers/cancelling-goods-or-services#

Essentially they can keep part of your deposit to cover actual losses / costs. That's it. If he's not started the build yet then no, he cannot keep a deposit. A letter before action followed by small claims (costs £25 and that's added to the claim when you win...) is the way to go if you get no joy out of asking for the deposit back.

As an aside, I did a Music Tech degree back in the 90s and a large part of that was luthiery for me. We had specific modules covering business so at least some budding luthiers that came out of there in that timeframe had some basic business knowledge haha. Regardless however, it's simply common sense that it's bad practice to ignore customers if you want them to be repeat customers - although in boutique-guitar-land who knows any more...

I'm just amazed that so many people are willing to part with large sums of cash when they get no response to basic questions *before* ordering! That doesn't happen in any other walk of life really, does it? You wouldn't buy a car from a dealer who ignores you in the show room would you? You'd go somewhere else... I get that there isn't necessarily "somewhere else" to buy a Daemoness from but even so...


----------



## sleewell

possumkiller said:


> It never does but it keeps on happening. The fact that his partner left, he dropped off communication, but apparently still takes deposits is enough of a red flag for me.




lol weren't the pics posted by the op enough for you guys? you need further red flags to stay far away from people like this? 

sounds like you guys have way more money than me and don't really care about losing it.


----------



## mehegama

foreright said:


> The situation in the UK is really quite simple - see here for details: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e-for-consumers/cancelling-goods-or-services#
> 
> Essentially they can keep part of your deposit to cover actual losses / costs. That's it. If he's not started the build yet then no, he cannot keep a deposit. A letter before action followed by small claims (costs £25 and that's added to the claim when you win...) is the way to go if you get no joy out of asking for the deposit back.
> 
> As an aside, I did a Music Tech degree back in the 90s and a large part of that was luthiery for me. We had specific modules covering business so at least some budding luthiers that came out of there in that timeframe had some basic business knowledge haha. Regardless however, it's simply common sense that it's bad practice to ignore customers if you want them to be repeat customers - although in boutique-guitar-land who knows any more...
> 
> I'm just amazed that so many people are willing to part with large sums of cash when they get no response to basic questions *before* ordering! That doesn't happen in any other walk of life really, does it? You wouldn't buy a car from a dealer who ignores you in the show room would you? You'd go somewhere else... I get that there isn't necessarily "somewhere else" to buy a Daemoness from but even so...



Thanks that s very informative. I m pretty sure a court will absolutely accept a case of 30 months becoming 60 - and that 's pure waiting time so no costs involved - plus an increase in the original quote. That is way beyond reasonable practices. I want to be positive that the situation will get better but i don't see it. 
Some one that gets in touch with him should inform him about the situation an d he needs to address it.


----------



## narad

sleewell said:


> lol weren't the pics posted by the op enough for you guys? you need further red flags to stay far away from people like this?
> 
> sounds like you guys have way more money than me and don't really care about losing it.



That one is definitely not a comforting build, but he did take it back and refund OP, right? That's one poor build out of many across 12+ years at this point. Statistically it's not very risky, yet. That said, if I was on the fence for putting a deposit down _now_, I'd definitely postpone any thought of it.


----------



## sleewell

built it, knew it looked like dogshit, still shipped it. only did anything due to the potential blowback right?

says a lot imo. hard pass.


----------



## narad

sleewell said:


> only did anything due to the potential blowback right?



I think that's quite an assumption. This is the same guy that's offered to take in guitars that people buy used and give them a proper tune-up free of charge. Dylan's always seemed to approach the way he does business with a certain creed and devotion I think a lot of builders lack. I mean, it's hard to meet the guy and walk away thinking guitars are just like his "day job". He's really devoted to it.

Anyone can fall on tough times though. I don't know what's going on there...certainly Barnes leaving is worrisome, and a much bigger red flag to me than OPs build.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I think that's quite an assumption. This is the same guy that's offered to take in guitars that people buy used and give them a proper tune-up free of charge. Dylan's always seemed to approach the way he does business with a certain creed and devotion I think a lot of builders lack. I mean, it's hard to meet the guy and walk away thinking guitars are just like his "day job". He's really devoted to it.
> 
> Anyone can fall on tough times though. I don't know what's going on there...certainly Barnes leaving is worrisome, and a much bigger red flag to me than OPs build.


But this is the issue: Dylan has a very good reputation, and his guitars are great too. Why risk all of this by not addressing the issue? It s not like it will be gone overnight. It will only get worse, and that s a shame for such a great brand like Daemoness


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> I think that's quite an assumption. This is the same guy that's offered to take in guitars that people buy used and give them a proper tune-up free of charge. Dylan's always seemed to approach the way he does business with a certain creed and devotion I think a lot of builders lack. I mean, it's hard to meet the guy and walk away thinking guitars are just like his "day job". He's really devoted to it.
> 
> Anyone can fall on tough times though. I don't know what's going on there...certainly Barnes leaving is worrisome, and a much bigger red flag to me than OPs build.



Not only offered, but has actually done.


----------



## possumkiller

I think the whole keep on taking orders when you are way far behind on building them is the key to the whole thing. Daemoness was on point like ten or even eight years ago. Once the periphery boys got thiers and the bandwagon flooded Dylan with orders, NGDs have been very few and far between while the wait list and wait times keep getting longer. It's not sustainable.


----------



## c7spheres

- It would be great if he'd sell out to Hoshino then maybe I could finally get an archtop with LoPRo I can affford! 
- Seriously though, the major problem is not communicating and updating people while not meeting deadlines and still taking deposits. He literally can ease the tension with an update on his website. It only would only take an hour.


----------



## possumkiller

c7spheres said:


> - It would be great if he'd sell out to Hoshino then maybe I could finally get an archtop with LoPRo I can affford!
> - Seriously though, the major problem is not communicating and updating people while not meeting deadlines and still taking deposits. He literally can ease the tension with an update on his website. It only would only take an hour.


Idk for me, it's all the money going in with very little coming out that is worrisome to me. If there were guitars being delivered on a steady basis, I could just think he's too busy getting work done to be checking the computer. 

If you know you are only going to build two or three guitars per year, you shouldn't be taking money from people in advance for guitars that will not be born for another five to six years.

If you put down a deposit on a guitar you know won't be completed for five years and the cost at completion has to be adjusted for inflation...


----------



## Merrekof

I'm really curious what is all behind Deamoness. Perhaps his business model is flawed and he needs the deposits to complete this years builds?
In terms of aesthetics, Deamoness is beyond Ran but I'd put more trust in Ran guitars for example and we all know how that ended up..


----------



## mehegama

Merrekof said:


> I'm really curious what is all behind Deamoness. Perhaps his business model is flawed and he needs the deposits to complete this years builds?
> In terms of aesthetics, Deamoness is beyond Ran but I'd put more trust in Ran guitars for example and we all know how that ended up..


I guess when you produce 3 guitars per year and you keep taking and taking orders, that s what happens.. And that's the good scenario..


----------



## foreright

mehegama said:


> I guess when you produce 3 guitars per year and you keep taking and taking orders, that s what happens.. And that's the good scenario..



When you only produce 3 guitars a year (I expect he's making more than that though...) you HAVE to keep taking orders otherwise you don't have enough money coming in to live on! I suspect that's actually the real problem here - he needs the deposits otherwise there's simply not enough cash flow - but clearly if you do this, you get massive backlog and eventually everything goes "pop" as it's a pyramid / ponzi scheme.


----------



## mehegama

foreright said:


> When you only produce 3 guitars a year (I expect he's making more than that though...) you HAVE to keep taking orders otherwise you don't have enough money coming in to live on! I suspect that's actually the real problem here - he needs the deposits otherwise there's simply not enough cash flow - but clearly if you do this, you get massive backlog and eventually everything goes "pop" as it's a pyramid / ponzi scheme.


The number 3 was more of a figure of speech. What you say is probably right though. If deposits cover current costs then this operating model is not sustainable.


----------



## Forkface

man, this whole thread is just so... sad
the problem with the lack of comms is that people start jumping to conclusions, so it becomes a vicious cycle of more non-responsiveness, more conclusions, and you tarnish your reputation very quickly. 
I've straight up wanted a Daemoness since the first time i saw one... and this thread alone has made me not want one anymore. 

"Troy wasn't built in a day, but it sure as hell fell in one"


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Forkface said:


> man, this whole thread is just so... sad
> the problem with the lack of comms is that people start jumping to conclusions, so it becomes a vicious cycle of more non-responsiveness, more conclusions, and you tarnish your reputation very quickly.
> I've straight up wanted a Daemoness since the first time i saw one... and this thread alone has made me not want one anymore.
> 
> "Troy wasn't built in a day, but it sure as hell fell in one"


Yeah the unresponsiveness coupled with the build in the OP is making me want to not go any further with my build.


----------



## mbardu

NVM.
This thread is not upping my confidence in small builders, that's for sure..


----------



## dmlinger

mbardu said:


> NVM.
> This thread is not upping my confidence in small builders, that's for sure..



It was discussed a few pages back...out of curiosity, would you think that the general public would prefer to purchase "in stock" builds from small builders? Or do you think the majority of people in the market for a boutique build would want to hand pick every spec?


----------



## Merrekof

dmlinger said:


> It was discussed a few pages back...out of curiosity, would you think that the general public would prefer to purchase "in stock" builds from small builders? Or do you think the majority of people in the market for a boutique build would want to hand pick every spec?


Don't you know how these people are? 
"I'd buy that guitar if it had Fishmans/BKPs/EMGs/..."
"I'd buy that guitar if it had a TOM/Floyd/Evertune/...."
The list goes on... 
What Ormsby and Solar do works imo. Small batches with changing specs. That keeps the buyers interested and there will be something coming along for everyone at some point.


----------



## 2liveis2die35

dmlinger said:


> It was discussed a few pages back...out of curiosity, would you think that the general public would prefer to purchase "in stock" builds from small builders? Or do you think the majority of people in the market for a boutique build would want to hand pick every spec?


I think people would love both..those that don't want to wait can get an In stock build and try the brand out.those that want a full blown custom can go that route.


----------



## dmlinger

Merrekof said:


> Don't you know how these people are?
> "I'd buy that guitar if it had Fishmans/BKPs/EMGs/..."
> "I'd buy that guitar if it had a TOM/Floyd/Evertune/...."
> The list goes on...
> What Ormsby and Solar do works imo. Small batches with changing specs. That keeps the buyers interested and there will be something coming along for everyone at some point.



So true. There's always ONE spec that keeps them from pulling the trigger. Those are also the same people that kick tires with no real intent of buying. 

"Pickguard has 5 screws instead of 6...too bad bc I'd totally buy it"


----------



## jco5055

This reminds me, isn't there someone on SSO that refuses to buy an Ibanez because he wants something very specific like I think an ebony fretboard with black hardware combo or something lol? No hate if there is, that just made me think of this talk on how to make specs for everyone to be happy with without being a custom shop.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

dmlinger said:


> It was discussed a few pages back...out of curiosity, would you think that the general public would prefer to purchase "in stock" builds from small builders? Or do you think the majority of people in the market for a boutique build would want to hand pick every spec?



Two different customers, with some moderate overlap. 

There's a reason all the big boutique builders do in-stock builds, those who ship direct and those who go through dealers who order in-stocks.

To an extent you haven to ignore a lot of the noise on forums and social media. Typically, the folks whining about specs are mostly tire kickers with no intent on ordering. You have to listen to what actually sells, both your own orders and similar contemporaries. 

If you build fancy Strats, like Suhr or Anderson, you'll notice that 99% of the in-stock stuff they make has fairly standard necks and hardware, but fancy tops in cool colors. That's because that's what sells in that space.


----------



## cip 123

dmlinger said:


> It was discussed a few pages back...out of curiosity, would you think that the general public would prefer to purchase "in stock" builds from small builders? Or do you think the majority of people in the market for a boutique build would want to hand pick every spec?


Regardless of the business model, a bad builder is a bad builder. This isn't directed at Daemoness. A customer may be happier about readily available stock but if said guitar is just as bad as wha you'd get waiting whats the point?

This has already happened with another UK builder, Sabre guitars. I bought an in stock, and it was an absolute shit show of a guitar.

I can take a guess at why you're curious  but bottom line, if you build decent guitars you can make multiple business models work, it's keeping that simplistic business model as you scale up and develop a business. If you start getting busy and don't address it (closing order lists, not hiring help), things will fall through the cracks.


----------



## Forkface

Merrekof said:


> Don't you know how these people are?
> "I'd buy that guitar if it had Fishmans/BKPs/EMGs/..."
> "I'd buy that guitar if it had a TOM/Floyd/Evertune/...."


people that speak like this never buy anything.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Forkface said:


> people that speak like this never buy anything.


yeah you're not wrong.
I mean I can understand the bridge complaints. It's not exactly easy to mod guitar for a different type of bridge. 
Pickups on the other hand are stupidly easy to swap out so there's no excuse there imo.


----------



## jephjacques

dmlinger said:


> So true. There's always ONE spec that keeps them from pulling the trigger. Those are also the same people that kick tires with no real intent of buying.
> 
> "Pickguard has 5 screws instead of 6...too bad bc I'd totally buy it"



I only buy guitars with titanium pickguard screws for maximum tonal transfer


----------



## bifftannen

dmlinger said:


> Zero chance. That money has already been spent on livelihood. Highly doubt it sits in an account for it to be reconciled and closed once the build is shipped to the customer.


So possibly anyone thinking of getting a refund on their deposit will not receive it as Daemoness may have it already spent?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bifftannen said:


> So possibly anyone thinking of getting a refund on their deposit will not receive it as Daemoness may have it already spent?



They were, fairly recently, able to refund the OP here of the entire amount of thier build. 

So they could probably dish out a few deposits depending on the situation, but I doubt they'd be able to return all of them at once. 

That said, if it was declared "non refundable" I don't see why folks should expect anything back.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> They were, fairly recently, able to refund the OP here of the entire amount of thier build.
> 
> So they could probably dish out a few deposits depending on the situation, but I doubt they'd be able to return all of them at once.
> 
> That said, if it was declared "non refundable" I don't see why folks should expect anything back.


As I said before there is no court in the earth, in my opinion, that would agree that going from the 30 months of pure waiting to 60 months is within reason. Neither would they agree it holds just coz Dylan deemed them non refundable. I dont think this holds up legally. It is a clear breach of a trade agreement. Reading all these from all the people waiting for 50 and 60 months, as I m almost in 30 months now, i m feeling more and more turned off about my build..


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> As I said before there is no court in the earth, in my opinion, that would agree that going from the 30 months of pure waiting to 60 months is within reason. Neither would they agree it holds just coz Dylan deemed them non refundable. I dont think this holds up legally. It is a clear breach of a trade agreement. Reading all these from all the people waiting for 50 and 60 months, as I m almost in 30 months now, i m feeling more and more turned off about my build..



Are you in some kind of hurry to get the guitar?


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> As I said before there is no court in the earth, in my opinion, that would agree that going from the 30 months of pure waiting to 60 months is within reason. Neither would they agree it holds just coz Dylan deemed them non refundable. I dont think this holds up legally. It is a clear breach of a trade agreement. Reading all these from all the people waiting for 50 and 60 months, as I m almost in 30 months now, i m feeling more and more turned off about my build..



There's not really any court on earth that cares much about anyone's 3000 GBP custom guitar either though.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Are you in some kind of hurry to get the guitar?


No, not in the strict sense, but I m concerned that he has not been replying to any of my messages in various platforms (i m almost in the 30 months) and have been quite disturbed reading quite a few people here waiting for ,like, 5 years. I can give him a bit of extra time within reason for sure, but going from 30 months to 60, i would have to ask for my deposit back for sure. And at this point I would like to have an honest estimate to manage my expectations.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> There's not really any court on earth that cares much about anyone's 3000 GBP custom guitar either though.


In the UK we have the small claims court which is for exactly this kind of issues. I m not saying i ll go there tomorrow. I was just saying that the nonrefundability of the deposit is disputable. Again my issue is that, personally, I m in the dark regarding my real waiting times.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> As I said before there is no court in the earth, in my opinion, that would agree that going from the 30 months of pure waiting to 60 months is within reason. Neither would they agree it holds just coz Dylan deemed them non refundable. I dont think this holds up legally. It is a clear breach of a trade agreement. Reading all these from all the people waiting for 50 and 60 months, as I m almost in 30 months now, i m feeling more and more turned off about my build..



That's the thing though, until you make it the court's decision, I don't think there's a reason to expect a refund.

Remember, it swings both ways, if there isn't a promise of a completion date, just a nebulous "about X months", you're pretty much at a judge's mercy.

Build times of all kinds of products and all kinds of industries run over projected completion timetables constantly. That's why there's usually a "big boy" contract to set guidelines or else you're at the suppliers' mercy.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, a) no one signed (physically or electronically) an actual contract, b) no promises of an exact build time were given, and c) the deposit was for a wait list spot in itself.



mehegama said:


> In the UK we have the small claims court which is for exactly this kind of issues. I m not saying i ll go there tomorrow. I was just saying that the nonrefundability of the deposit is disputable. Again my issue is that, personally, I m in the dark regarding my real waiting times.



Just about anything is disputable, but I don't see it as a foregone conclusion at this point. So I see no reason why anyone would be entitled to a refund until it is legally sorted.

You have every right to be unhappy. I would be too. What Daemoness/Dylan is doing is bullshit, cowardly, and a reason why I'd never personally recommend doing business with them.

I mean, how can you do business in good faith with someone who ignores you like an ex-girlfriend.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> No, not in the strict sense, but I m concerned that he has not been replying to any of my messages in various platforms (i m almost in the 30 months) and have been quite disturbed reading quite a few people here waiting for ,like, 5 years. I can give him a bit of extra time within reason for sure, but going from 30 months to 60, i would have to ask for my deposit back for sure. And at this point I would like to have an honest estimate to manage my expectations.



Fair enough, and each to their own. I'm in almost double as as long as you. Only thing you can do is wait, in my opinion. He's obviously still cranking out guitars, they just take a while.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Fair enough, and each to their own. I'm in almost double as as long as you. Only thing you can do is wait, in my opinion. He's obviously still cranking out guitars, they just take a while.


of course. I try to be patient, but the communication thing just annoys me. How difficult is to say " Thanks for your mail. Your build is expected to begin in X months". How much time does it take to do this?


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong but, a) no one signed (physically or electronically) an actual contract, b) no promises of an exact build time were given, and c) the deposit was for a wait list spot in itself.


There was no contract signed but it is stated in the email (which in the UK are legally binding) that the current wait time for a build to commence is approximately 30 months. Also Barnes told me at 15 months that i m right in the middle of my wait time. So you understand that maybe 12 extra months are within reason but an extra 30? The deposit was to get a wait list spot indeed, but it was for a list with a 30 month wait as a guide. If the guide time is 30 and the real time is 60 you realise the guide is misleading. And if things have changed, all I m asking is for this info to be communicated. That s it.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> In the UK we have the small claims court which is for exactly this kind of issues. I m not saying i ll go there tomorrow. I was just saying that the nonrefundability of the deposit is disputable. Again my issue is that, personally, I m in the dark regarding my real waiting times.



I can appreciate your frustration for sure. It's hard to get in touch with him these days. He was supposed to ring me a few weeks back and didn't. Have you tried getting in touch via FB or Instagram (assuming you have accounts of course)?


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> I can appreciate your frustration for sure. It's hard to get in touch with him these days. He was supposed to ring me a few weeks back and didn't. Have you tried getting in touch via FB or Instagram (assuming you have accounts of course)?


Yep, fb, ig, old email, new email, site form. Nothing.And to clarify, this is the only email I sent since I sent my deposit, i pretty much had forgotten about it. And that because i m almost on the 30th month, just to have an idea where we are standing with the build.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> Yep, fb, ig, old email, new email, site form. Nothing.And to clarify, this is the only email I sent since I sent my deposit, i pretty much had forgotten about it. And that because i m almost on the 30th month, just to have an idea where we are standing with the build.



Do you have the exact date your deposit went in?


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> Do you have the exact date your deposit went in?


I ll have to double check but it should be end of Feb or early march of 18.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

narad said:


> There's not really any court on earth that cares much about anyone's 3000 GBP custom guitar either though.





mehegama said:


> In the UK we have the small claims court which is for exactly this kind of issues. I m not saying i ll go there tomorrow. I was just saying that the nonrefundability of the deposit is disputable. Again my issue is that, personally, I m in the dark regarding my real waiting times.





MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the thing though, until you make it the court's decision, I don't think there's a reason to expect a refund.
> 
> Remember, it swings both ways, if there isn't a promise of a completion date, just a nebulous "about X months", you're pretty much at a judge's mercy.
> 
> Build times of all kinds of products and all kinds of industries run over projected completion timetables constantly. That's why there's usually a "big boy" contract to set guidelines or else you're at the suppliers' mercy.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong but, a) no one signed (physically or electronically) an actual contract, b) no promises of an exact build time were given, and c) the deposit was for a wait list spot in itself.



_TL;DR: court is complicated--don't sue unless you absolutely have to. Private settlement is more likely. It also doesn't seem like anyone so far has even submitted a Letter Before Claim, let alone any of the other steps required to sue in small claims court._

Without giving TMI about a shitty landlord, I've done a lot of research on this recently and have just spoken with a solicitor about submitting a claim to the county court. 

I am not a solicitor myself but I think I can provide some relevant information. 

It seems as though there is an assumption in this thread that small claims court is the first step. It isn't. In fact, there's a whole pre-court protocol that you have to follow before you can even submit a claim. How closely you follow that protocol will have a big impact on your success in court (including whether the court will even hear your case); moreover, how much correspondence you have with Dylan beforehand will either strengthen or diminish your application depending on what lengths you've gone to to get your money back. 

In my opinion, issuing a claim in the county court is basically the nuclear option. You are suing someone, there's no two ways about it. Having said that, the process for small claims is relatively inexpensive, simple, and it is an absolutely valid and sometimes necessary course of action for dealing with unscrupulous people. But you also need to be compassionate and recognise the impact that litigation has on people. It is a last resort against someone refusing you a legal right. 

If it ever escalated to that stage for any of Dylan's customers, I reckon Daemoness would be absolutely tanked for months due to how small claims works. All his existing and future customers would be impacted by this. For example, you can't claim legal fees for any actions _leading up to_ small claims court. Your court expenses are often covered, but you wouldn't normally have a solicitor represent you, you'd represent yourself. Likewise, while a solicitor's advice is helpful _before _you go to court, Dylan likely wouldn't use one because they usually bill at £200/hr in southern England. So he'd be doing most of the legwork himself, going through old emails, trying to get bank statements, researching law online, and so on. All this takes a lot of time and Dylan is apparently already burning the midnight oil to do endorsee builds, etc. 

Not a single person I've seen comment in this thread so far has a case. Mostly because I haven't seen any evidence that Dylan is actually refusing refunds to people as opposed to just being hard to contact. 

So what would a proper claims process look like? 

Contact Dylan and express your concern over his workload and completion times. If you do not agree with the reasonableness of his delays, state that you'd like your money back. 
If Dylan tells you that the deposit was non-refundable, ask him why. I'm sure he has good reasons for requiring it. Yet you probably also have good reasons for wanting your money back. For example, if the build times are literally double what he stated they'd be, tell him that you believe the verbal/informal contract you had is no longer valid and that the goods/services he sold you is not as described. 
If Dylan still refuses to refund you, say that you will consider reporting his business to Trading Standards as you believe his professional practices are misleading and unfair. The process for doing that is outlined on this Citizen's Advice webpage. 
If Dylan still refuses, to get your money back you will likely have to go to small claims court. Before you can do that, you need to draft something called a Letter Before Claim. This Citizen's Advice page covers most of that process, but their advice could be more comprehensive in my experience. The Ministry of Justice's pre-action protocol requires: 
_(a) the claimant writing to the defendant with concise details of the claim. The letter should include the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated;
(b) the defendant responding within a reasonable time - 14 days in a straight forward case and no more than 3 months in a very complex one._ 
I doubt Dylan would still refuse to refund the money at this point, but if he does, you should mention in your Letter Before Claim that you are open to the option of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). This can involve a whole bunch of things, but the most common thing is a civil mediator. A civil mediator is usually a solicitor who will provide unbiased and impartial information to both parties to help them decide whether they need to go to court to resolve the issue. Sometimes a compromise can be made, or one of the parties will release their side of the dispute based on the advice given. 
Failing all of the above, you issue proceedings in the county court and hope that you've collected enough information and have done enough in the pre-action phase for the court to rule that your actions were reasonable enough to demand a hearing. If the court does grant a hearing, you'll have to represent yourself or pay a solicitor to do so (e.g. if you live abroad); if you choose the latter, I would estimate that your combined costs for representation and issuing a claim would be greater than the £600 deposit your suing for. 
With regard to the 'no formal contract' thing Max mentioned, I don't think that will matter. There is a reasonable expectation when making the deposit that Dylan would complete the work within the estimated timeframe. If anything, the lack of a formal contract will help the buyer's case because simply saying that deposits are non-refundable doesn't include any kind of provision stipulating that he can keep the money if the contract terms are not met. The court might just say that the deposit scheme was a glorified verbal agreement to render goods and services over an unusually long period (24 months that turned into 60). 

Above all, just be compassionate and do your homework. Courts hate timewasters. It's doubtful you make it to court if you don't follow the pre-action protocol. And if you do follow the protocol, it is designed to maximise the likelihood that parties in dispute settle privately out of court. 

As a final two cents: I get the impression that Dylan is being a bit naive on the business side and gotten himself in over his head. It sounds like he is having trouble keeping up with his work and doesn't want to admit this. Life isn't all sunshine and daises like Social Media makes it seem--there's probably reasons for what's happened and unfortunately we're hearing these second- or third-hand rather than from Dylan himself. If Dylan is hiding things, that's not a great sign but it isn't necessarily criminal. Especially not if his customers are only lamenting that he isn't working faster rather than demanding refunds.

Anger is worthless if you're not making a good faith effort to terminate your business with Daemoness and get your money back. Likewise, Dylan has a right to hear your complaints and try to remedy these, including by refund. It is unreasonable to try to sue him without notice, and doing so would probably have severe impacts on Dylan and his other customers.


----------



## mehegama

Sermo Lupi said:


> _TL;DR: court is complicated--don't sue unless you absolutely have to. Private settlement is more likely. It also doesn't seem like anyone so far has even submitted a Letter Before Claim, let alone any of the other steps required to sue in small claims court._
> 
> Without giving TMI about a shitty landlord, I've done a lot of research on this recently and have just spoken with a solicitor about submitting a claim to the county court.
> 
> I am not a solicitor myself but I think I can provide some relevant information.
> 
> It seems as though there is an assumption in this thread that small claims court is the first step. It isn't. In fact, there's a whole pre-court protocol that you have to follow before you can even submit a claim. How closely you follow that protocol will have a big impact on your success in court (including whether the court will even hear your case); moreover, how much correspondence you have with Dylan beforehand will either strengthen or diminish your application depending on what lengths you've gone to to get your money back.
> 
> In my opinion, issuing a claim in the county court is basically the nuclear option. You are suing someone, there's no two ways about it. Having said that, the process for small claims is relatively inexpensive, simple, and it is an absolutely valid and sometimes necessary course of action for dealing with unscrupulous people. But you also need to be compassionate and recognise the impact that litigation has on people. It is a last resort against someone refusing you a legal right.
> 
> If it ever escalated to that stage for any of Dylan's customers, I reckon Daemoness would be absolutely tanked for months due to how small claims works. All his existing and future customers would be impacted by this. For example, you can't claim legal fees for any actions _leading up to_ small claims court. Your court expenses are often covered, but you wouldn't normally have a solicitor represent you, you'd represent yourself. Likewise, while a solicitor's advice is helpful _before _you go to court, Dylan likely wouldn't use one because they usually bill at £200/hr in southern England. So he'd be doing most of the legwork himself, going through old emails, trying to get bank statements, researching law online, and so on. All this takes a lot of time and Dylan is apparently already burning the midnight oil to do endorsee builds, etc.
> 
> Not a single person I've seen comment in this thread so far has a case. Mostly because I haven't seen any evidence that Dylan is actually refusing refunds to people as opposed to just being hard to contact.
> 
> So what would a proper claims process look like?
> 
> Contact Dylan and express your concern over his workload and completion times. If you do not agree with the reasonableness of his delays, state that you'd like your money back.
> If Dylan tells you that the deposit was non-refundable, ask him why. I'm sure he has good reasons for requiring it. Yet you probably also have good reasons for wanting your money back. For example, if the build times are literally double what he stated they'd be, tell him that you believe the verbal/informal contract you had is no longer valid and that the goods/services he sold you is not as described.
> If Dylan still refuses to refund you, say that you will consider reporting his business to Trading Standards as you believe his professional practices are misleading and unfair. The process for doing that is outlined on this Citizen's Advice webpage.
> If Dylan still refuses, to get your money back you will likely have to go to small claims court. Before you can do that, you need to draft something called a Letter Before Claim. This Citizen's Advice page covers most of that process, but their advice could be more comprehensive in my experience. The Ministry of Justice's pre-action protocol requires:
> _(a) the claimant writing to the defendant with concise details of the claim. The letter should include the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated;
> (b) the defendant responding within a reasonable time - 14 days in a straight forward case and no more than 3 months in a very complex one._
> I doubt Dylan would still refuse to refund the money at this point, but if he does, you should mention in your Letter Before Claim that you are open to the option of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). This can involve a whole bunch of things, but the most common thing is a civil mediator. A civil mediator is usually a solicitor who will provide unbiased and impartial information to both parties to help them decide whether they need to go to court to resolve the issue. Sometimes a compromise can be made, or one of the parties will release their side of the dispute based on the advice given.
> Failing all of the above, you issue proceedings in the county court and hope that you've collected enough information and have done enough in the pre-action phase for the court to rule that your actions were reasonable enough to demand a hearing. If the court does grant a hearing, you'll have to represent yourself or pay a solicitor to do so (e.g. if you live abroad); if you choose the latter, I would estimate that your combined costs for representation and issuing a claim would be greater than the £600 deposit your suing for.
> With regard to the 'no formal contract' thing Max mentioned, I don't think that will matter. There is a reasonable expectation when making the deposit that Dylan would complete the work within the estimated timeframe. If anything, the lack of a formal contract will help the buyer's case because simply saying that deposits are non-refundable doesn't include any kind of provision stipulating that he can keep the money if the contract terms are not met. The court might just say that the deposit scheme was a glorified verbal agreement to render goods and services over an unusually long period (24 months that turned into 60).
> 
> Above all, just be compassionate and do your homework. Courts hate timewasters. It's doubtful you make it to court if you don't follow the pre-action protocol. And if you do follow the protocol, it is designed to maximise the likelihood that parties in dispute settle privately out of court.
> 
> As a final two cents: I get the impression that Dylan is being a bit naive on the business side and gotten himself in over his head. It sounds like he is having trouble keeping up with his work and doesn't want to admit this. Life isn't all sunshine and daises like Social Media makes it seem--there's probably reasons for what's happened and unfortunately we're hearing these second- or third-hand rather than from Dylan himself. If Dylan is hiding things, that's not a great sign but it isn't necessarily criminal. Especially not if his customers are only lamenting that he isn't working faster rather than demanding refunds.
> 
> Anger is worthless if you're not making a good faith effort to terminate your business with Daemoness and get your money back. Likewise, Dylan has a right to hear your complaints and try to remedy these, including by refund. It is unreasonable to try to sue him without notice, and doing so would probably have severe impacts on Dylan and his other customers.


Wow.. this is extremely useful info so thank you for taking the time to write this. I want to repeat that I m not intending to sue or anything, was just making the point (for all the reasons that you put in detail) that the non refundable claim is super disputable. Again my issue is why does he ignore his customers? All the above can potentially kill his business if someone that is in darkness for so long decides to proceed legally. What does he have to gain by ghosting everyone? It's beyond me.
And it is a shame as his record (apart from the OP case - which he handled very well to his credit) is stellar..


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Just gotta chime in here real quick: I was refused refund in the past.

We all like to put good faith in Dylan as we all know his work is really great (except for this one build apparently) which is why we shelled out our hard earned cash, but the silence here as they say is deafening. He really needs to make some sort of statement concerning his problem(s) and or reach out to customers in some way. Going non-communicado is only going to hurt things more.


----------



## sleewell

Are you in some kind of hurry to get the guitar?


nah take your time fam, i'm good. what's a few years between strangers on the internet? if i get it within 10-15 years it'll almost be like a complete surprise when i open the box. to be perfectly honest i was really enjoying the internet cred i was getting and really never even wanted the actual guitar.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> I ll have to double check but it should be end of Feb or early march of 18.



It's hard to say where you would be on the list. I know of guys who put deposits in up to around the summer of 2016 and they had their Skype calls around October/November last year. and the timbers were then purchased for those builds. There were a few other guys who ordered say August of 2016 and just missed out. I think Dylan works on batches of 20 guitars at a time. I had guitars ordered from 2015 that only made it into the first batch I mentioned which has just started, so like a year before the other guys I know of. Now on my builds from 2015 I told Dylan to hang off on as I already had several Daemoness here and said to him to get builds out to first time customers instead of worrying about mine so that's why my orders from 2015 only started in the 2016 batch.


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> It's hard to say where you would be on the list. I know of guys who put deposits in up to around the summer of 2016 and they had their Skype calls around October/November last year. and the timbers were then purchased for those builds. There were a few other guys who ordered say August of 2016 and just missed out. I think Dylan works on batches of 20 guitars at a time. I had guitars ordered from 2015 that only made it into the first batch I mentioned which has just started, so like a year before the other guys I know of. Now on my builds from 2015 I told Dylan to hang off on as I already had several Daemoness here and said to him to get builds out to first time customers instead of worrying about mine so that's why my orders from 2015 only started in the 2016 batch.


so if he is currently working on 2016 orders that means I m at least 2 years away from my build even being started right? That s lovely then... NOT.. and why do we have to do that here i a forum post?? He needs to come clear with the situation and someone needs to hear from him as this is looking depressing


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## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> so if he is currently working on 2016 orders that means I m at least 2 years away from my build even being started right? That s lovely then... NOT.. and why do we have to do that here i a forum post?? He needs to come clear with the situation and someone needs to hear from him as this is looking depressing



I can't answer that question on how long your build will take to start I'm afraid. The timbers for the 2016 batch were purchased I think late 2019 so some of those guys builds had started at around the 36 month mark..some a month or two more. It would depend how many guys are in the queue in front of you and the complexity of their builds. There are a lot of variables and the whole Covid-19 thing has definitely delayed work. With custom shop builds from small boutique builders all sorts of delays can happen. There are a few notable exceptions of course. A few of my builds took over 5 years...I don't mind the wait time...actually I don't mind it that much as I have a few of them here to keep me going. I can understand your frustration at the wait time though and the lack of communication. I'm in the same boat. I have 4 builds outstanding and a guitar on loan to Dylan. I'm prepared to sit tight on those...he's always delivered though not in the time frame originally quoted.


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## jephjacques

3+ years just to start thinking about beginning to look into purchasing the wood to possibly begin building a guitar at some point in the next 2+ years is a hell of a way to run a business


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## mehegama

I don’t think I m willing to wait more
than 6 extra months to be honest. It is already ridiculous enough


----------



## IbanezDaemon

jephjacques said:


> 3+ years just to start thinking about beginning to look into purchasing the wood to possibly begin building a guitar at some point in the next 2+ years is a hell of a way to run a business



I agree but you are dealing with a luthier who likes to do most of the work himself barring the lacquering (which he used to do). It's a difficult one to solve, order book should be closed for starters. Def needs more hands on board.


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## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> I don’t think I m willing to wait more
> than 6 extra months to be honest. It is already ridiculous enough



That is your perogative. I highly doubt an extra 6 months will cut it. Maybe time to look into the actions you need 
to go through that Sermo Lupi outlined to pursue a refund on your deposit.


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> That is your perogative. I highly doubt an extra 6 months will cut it. Maybe time to look into the actions you need
> to go through that Sermo Lupi outlined to pursue a refund on your deposit.


That s what i ll do indeed. I was told 30 months as a guide and an extra 6 months is more than enough time within reason. Had i known the total time will be 5y + I would have never proceeded. I just hope he comes clean so I can evaluate my position. My ESP custom orders have taken between 10 and 14 months, and that s coming from one of the best custom shops in the world. Every other known custom shop in the EU of the same calibre, needs about 10 months. This is beyond ridiculous.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Bettershredthandead said:


> Just gotta chime in here real quick: I was refused refund in the past.



How did you go about it, if you don't mind me asking? Did you push the issue? 

It is difficult to blame Dylan if he politely declined. They're advertised as non-refundable deposits, after all. I strongly suspect Dylan will refund the deposit if you go through a formal complaints process. 



mehegama said:


> Wow.. this is extremely useful info so thank you for taking the time to write this. I want to repeat that I m not intending to sue or anything, was just making the point (for all the reasons that you put in detail) that the non refundable claim is super disputable. Again my issue is why does he ignore his customers? All the above can potentially kill his business if someone that is in darkness for so long decides to proceed legally. What does he have to gain by ghosting everyone? It's beyond me.
> And it is a shame as his record (apart from the OP case - which he handled very well to his credit) is stellar..



Your objections are reasonable. My post was just outlining how small claims court is more complicated than people are acknowledging. There's a burden on the plaintiff to prove they were wronged and that they undertook every effort to give the defendant a chance to fix the problem. 

As for why Dylan is ignoring this situation, it's anyone's guess. I don't think it is malicious, personally.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Sermo Lupi said:


> How did you go about it, if you don't mind me asking? Did you push the issue?
> 
> It is difficult to blame Dylan if he politely declined. They're advertised as non-refundable deposits, after all. I strongly suspect Dylan will refund the deposit if you go through a formal complaints process.
> 
> 
> 
> Your objections are reasonable. My post was just outlining how small claims court is more complicated than people are acknowledging. There's a burden on the plaintiff to prove they were wronged and that they undertook every effort to give the defendant a chance to fix the problem.
> 
> As for why Dylan is ignoring this situation, it's anyone's guess. I don't think it is malicious, personally.



I just asked for one. Via email. And the answer was no its non-refundable. Barnes was the issuer of the statement.

I'd be cool if my questions and concerns would simply be addressed better in detail by Dylan and that would be that. The poor communication is really hurting things here though. I'm in the states too so I have no idea how the process you outlined would bode for me. If it bodes at all...


----------



## mehegama

Sermo Lupi said:


> How did you go about it, if you don't mind me asking? Did you push the issue?
> 
> It is difficult to blame Dylan if he politely declined. They're advertised as non-refundable deposits, after all. I strongly suspect Dylan will refund the deposit if you go through a formal complaints process.
> 
> 
> 
> Your objections are reasonable. My post was just outlining how small claims court is more complicated than people are acknowledging. There's a burden on the plaintiff to prove they were wronged and that they undertook every effort to give the defendant a chance to fix the problem.
> 
> As for why Dylan is ignoring this situation, it's anyone's guess. I don't think it is malicious, personally.


I think the process you described is the recommended one for sure. My reference to the court was to point that just because they said the deposit is non refundable, it does not mean it s holding legally as a statement. I m willing to give extra time, but anything more than 6 extra months from the guide time of 30 months, is beyond good will and reason. Someone that manages to talk to him needs to inform him about the situation.


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## prlgmnr

I was quoted 30 months in early 2017....30 months and "we are working towards reducing this time"


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## mehegama

prlgmnr said:


> I was quoted 30 months in early 2017....30 months and "we are working towards reducing this time"


Same here. So you are on 40 months and the build has not even started yet right?


----------



## prlgmnr

mehegama said:


> Same here. So you are on 40 months and the build has not even started yet right?


Correct.


----------



## Adieu

prlgmnr said:


> Correct.



Your deposit has been snorted off a hooker years ago, you know that right???


----------



## SDMFVan

Why do all of these builders think they can skip the step in growing a successful business that involves increasing staffing to scale up production to meet demand? If you insist on being a one man boutique shop then you shouldn't be opening order "books", you should be building on a one order at a time basis or only building for in stock sales. 

Imagine where a company like PRS would be today if back in 1986 once orders started coming in Paul refused to hire anyone to help...


----------



## prlgmnr

Adieu said:


> Your deposit has been snorted off a hooker years ago, you know that right???


I was aware when making the deposit that the deposit was a non-refundable payment to secure a place in the build queue, yes.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SDMFVan said:


> Why do all of these builders think they can skip the step in growing a successful business that involves increasing staffing to scale up production to meet demand? If you insist on being a one man boutique shop then you shouldn't be opening order "books", you should be building on a one order at a time basis or only building for in stock sales.
> 
> Imagine where a company like PRS would be today if back in 1986 once orders started coming in Paul refused to hire anyone to help...



Because, right now, you can't grow a business, or even be profitable otherwise, at a given price point, operating out of some countries.

That's the reality of it.

That's why some of the more recent brands are going with OEMs for production.


----------



## mehegama

prlgmnr said:


> I was aware when making the deposit that the deposit was a non-refundable payment to secure a place in the build queue, yes.


But you realise that you joined a queue that had attached to it the number 30 as guide time. If the real number is 60 then the agreement starts falling apart. Also would you have put the money had you known that the queue is 60 months? I doubt most people would have. Also just because he says it is nonrefundable it doesn't mean it has any legal force. There are trade rules regarding these type of things. Also when we agreed to pay the deposit, I did not see anywhere any clause saying you might not get your guitar at all..


----------



## frogman81

I see people throwing around the wait time as 60 months. It was 65 months for me, 9 months ago, on perhaps the most basic guitar possible - before Covid and when there were 2 people working at Daemoness. I would suggest that future wait times will be more like 72 months.


----------



## mehegama

frogman81 said:


> I see people throwing around the wait time as 60 months. It was 65 months for me, 9 months ago, on perhaps the most basic guitar possible - before Covid and when there were 2 people working at Daemoness. I would suggest that future wait times will be more like 72 months.


I cannot think of any other custom shop in the world having this type of time lines.. it s absurd.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I cannot think of any other custom shop in the world having this type of time lines.. it s absurd.



Oh, my sweet summer child.


----------



## Spicypickles

mehegama said:


> I cannot think of any other custom shop in the world having this type of time lines.. it s absurd.


There are custom acoustic builders that take 7+ years. Hell it took Ken Lawrence like 10 to make Hetfields abortion LP.


----------



## Adieu

Spicypickles said:


> There are custom acoustic builders that take 7+ years. Hell it took Ken Lawrence like 10 to make Hetfields abortion LP.



You think James Hetfield pays for guitars???

Lol.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Spicypickles said:


> Hetfields abortion LP.



I'd hate to see the inlays on that.


----------



## Spicypickles

Adieu said:


> You think James Hetfield pays for guitars???
> 
> Lol.


I didn’t say he did, only that they took forever to be built, even for someone of his ‘stature’. 

Lol.


----------



## Spicypickles

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd hate to see the inlays on that.


 so THATS the reason he never plays it on camera. I thought it was because it was hideous, not offensive.


----------



## Adieu

Spicypickles said:


> I didn’t say he did, only that they took forever to be built, even for someone of his ‘stature’.
> 
> Lol.



That's like Michael Jordan wanting to wear your company's sneakers in public, but the company deciding to dick him around for a decade.... they do realize this guy is the Jordan of selling guitars????


----------



## Spicypickles

I don’t know what you’re getting at. I was only referring to long build times in response to someone not being able to imagine such a long wait.


----------



## prlgmnr

mehegama said:


> Also would you have put the money had you known that the queue is 60 months?



Probably not, but equally there were enough tales around of other luthiers that I was always at least semi-aware of the possibility that it might get to this point, and was already resigned to cutting loose at that point rather than getting to the "it's been 12 years now but he says he's going down to the wood leprechaun tomorrow just to get the final bits of magic elven oak for my inlays and the build should be finished when the moon next rises in Saturn, so I'm glad I paid the final balance 2 years ago" stage.

I guess to be clear I consider my predicament to be a failure of my judgement rather than a failure on the part of Daemoness guitars.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because, right now, you can't grow a business, or even be profitable otherwise, at a given price point, operating out of some countries.
> 
> That's the reality of it.
> 
> That's why some of the more recent brands are going with OEMs for production.



It's true that employees are very expensive. 

You'd think that some of the shop policies could be changed to better reflect his one man operation, though. IbanezDaemon mentioned Dylan is building guitars in batches of 20 at a time. I'm not sure how many new deposits he's taking in at once, but if he's doing it by batch, that's 20 deposits at £600 a pop, or £12,000 whenever he opens up the books. 

The problem is obviously that Dylan can't build 20 guitars before he needs to reopen the books due to financial needs. Thus the waitlist has accrued over time like a sort of work-debt.

If he was building fewer guitars and also completed 2-5 in-stock builds per year instead of overleveraging himself on deposits, you'd think that'd be a more realistic way to bring in income rather that balloon the waitlist any further. 

Is there any particular reason why Dylan hasn't done many in-stock builds? Is it the fear of backlash from queue jumping?


----------



## mehegama

well, i would not put Ken lawrence and some of the super high end acoustic luthiers in the same category as Daemoness.. let's be realistic. I m talking about the other well known shops in Europe that produce similar type of instruments with nice tops and fancy inlays..None of these has 5 years of wait and none is going ex communicated.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Sermo Lupi said:


> Is there any particular reason why Dylan hasn't done many in-stock builds? Is it the fear of backlash from queue jumping?



The majority of Daemoness and other builder’s in-stock guitars are builds customers dropped out on, prototyping a new body shape/finish etc, trialing a third party for finishing or their own personal build which they are selling for a multitude of reasons. 

It’s rare enough that a builder will churn out completed in-stocks but I’ve noticed they will start something out of curiosity glueing woods tighter and then put it up on their socials as an available build where the customer can choose the rest of the specs.

Builders do worry about customers getting annoyed at an in stock getting priority over their build so it’s why they generally avoid them.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Like I mentioned in the Daemoness Thread, the deposit is a distant memory and not something I'm going to lose my mind over if nothing comes to fruition in regards to the guitar.

But the business model is unfathomably unacceptable, and the response equally as much from some folks I've read online. I get that you're not directly responsible, but brushing the response off as a blanket "that's just how things are" is effectively an enabling non-answer to the concerns.

My buddy had his Ghost Ship V sitting without hardware for almost a full year, that's fucking ridiculous. It was in it's final stage, it only needed hardware/electronics/and a setup. And the funniest part is when he got it, it didn't play well out of the box. It was gorgeous, but needing to perform your own setup on a guitar that expensive is such a shit delivery of a "high end" guitar. Unless there is a lack of talent, I firmly believe they probably strung it up and set it up then left it for months until they decided to invoice/ship the guitar out.

There's no excuse for this, in any industry, in this age. Dylan and his business wouldn't be afloat without all of the customer deposits, and he needs a fire lit under his ass to continue or reform his business model. No one wants to see them fail, but I sure as hell don't want to see weird pattern that seems like most of the SSO Luthiers fall for (Large queue + minimal communication). Unless you're 6 feet in the ground, you have the ability to communicate.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Lorcan Ward said:


> The majority of Daemoness and other builder’s in-stock guitars are builds customers dropped out on, prototyping a new body shape/finish etc, trialing a third party for finishing or their own personal build which they are selling for a multitude of reasons.
> 
> It’s rare enough that a builder will churn out completed in-stocks but I’ve noticed they will start something out of curiosity glueing woods tighter and then put it up on their socials as an available build where the customer can choose the rest of the specs.
> 
> Builders do worry about customers getting annoyed at an in stock getting priority over their build so it’s why they generally avoid them.



This speaks almost exclusively to the "new school" internet builder class. 

Back in the day, it used to be the other way around. Build as many in stocks you can to sell to help float until more orders come in. 

Now, thanks mostly to social media and the internet, it's the reverse.


----------



## SDMFVan

MaxOfMetal said:


> Because, right now, you can't grow a business, or even be profitable otherwise, at a given price point, operating out of some countries.
> 
> That's the reality of it.
> 
> That's why some of the more recent brands are going with OEMs for production.



This is one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" situations, wouldn't you think? If you want to take on dozens of orders you need to scale production accordingly, and if you don't want to do that scaling you need to limit your orders or go the OEM route you mentioned. You can't put the burden of paying your bills on customers your business model can't realistically satisfy.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SDMFVan said:


> This is one of those "can't have your cake and eat it too" situations, wouldn't you think? If you want to take on dozens of orders you need to scale production accordingly, and if you don't want to do that scaling you need to limit your orders or go the OEM route you mentioned. You can't put the burden of paying your bills on customers your business model can't realistically satisfy.



Pretty much. 

This happens time after time because a builder goes from relatively unknown, maybe getting a small handful of orders a year to having a million folks throwing money at them, it's almost impossible to say "no" so we wind up where this is now. 

Dylan probably should have tripped his prices and worked on a few guitars a quarter, his artsy ones, and operated that way. Sure, it would be fewer orders and some folks on the internet would bitch about how expensive they are, but it would have been sustainable as there are enough big spenders to keep it going. Just look at Alembic, Fodera, and Conklin. Builds from them routinely hit between $6k and $10k and they still have wait lists.


----------



## spudmunkey

This isn't unique to the guitar industry, either. Countless small furniture startups end up this way, too. it starts out with 1 guy in his garage, then 3, then they get a proper shop space, so they start taking on more work. Then, they get one huge "opportunity" they take on because it could "make" them. In the end, they often find out their low-price model isn't scalable, it is actually more work than they can handle, and they are lucky if it doesn't ruin them.

Small shops reach out to my office all the time saying "we're new and we have a CNC!, and our turn-around time for most orders is 5 days!" Then you send them a quote for 600 desks, and suddenly the leadtime extends to 8 weeks...that's a huge red flag that they are in over their head, and making our order means calling in every favor they have, and they are held together with hairpins and bubblegum. If they end up making the desk tops 1" too short, and they all need to be re-made, that single mistake, repeated 600 times, could completely wipe them out.


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## Sermo Lupi

Lorcan Ward said:


> The majority of Daemoness and other builder’s in-stock guitars are builds customers dropped out on...
> Builders do worry about customers getting annoyed at an in stock getting priority over their build so it’s why they generally avoid them.





MaxOfMetal said:


> This speaks almost exclusively to the "new school" internet builder class...Now, thanks mostly to social media and the internet, it's the reverse.



I was aware the in-stocks built so far were drop-outs. I also remember that, when one of the first in-stocks came up for sale (that white 'world domination' cimmerian), there was widespread support for Dylan finally getting a piece of inflated aftermarket prices. So I don't think there has always been such steadfast opposition; a lot of the current controversy probably relates to the waitlist being so large and behind schedule. 

Some napkin math: 

Dylan currently charges a £2000 base price per build, excluding VAT, materials and up-charge specs. Therefore, I assume that is roughly his net pay per build, minus a few undisclosed expenses. 
If he completes 10-15 guitars per year, that is £20,000-£30,000 in gross income. If his expenses require him charging more, he could up his base price to £3000+ and I don't think there would be much push back for the reasons Max touched on. 
Suppose he aims to complete 10 custom guitars per year (about one per month), and aims to do 5 in-stock builds as time permits. Endorsee guitars count toward the in-stock quota. If the waitlist is kept at a max of 20 customers (10 in-progress, 10 waiting), there shouldn't be much worry about in-stock delays. Moreover, customers currently sitting on waitlists could potentially be happier as in-stock customers if they still get a shot at buying a guitar. In-stock sales would take the place of income received from waitlist deposits. 
Even with only minor adjustments to his pricing, he could easily make a comfortable living wage by English standards based on the above. However, if Dylan isn't completing a minimum of 10 guitars per year, his pricing is overdue for a drastic change anyway.
I'm making some assumptions on the above, but I don't think Daemoness would need to be a custom-only shop to thrive. Like Max said, social media has encouraged a commission-based economy in the arts industry for a while now. Having said that, Daemoness is not in the business of making personalised puppy portraits. The guitars aren't _that _individualised. A lot of specs are the same or similar because Dylan only makes metal guitars. As for the personalised themes, most of them have general appeal. I even saw on a recent social media post that Dylan is happy to work on theme builds using one-word prompts. That means there is probably very little input from the customer in helping Dylan arrive at his final vision for the artwork on the instrument.


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## Forkface

Sermo Lupi said:


> The guitars aren't _that _individualised. A lot of specs are the same or similar because Dylan only makes metal guitars. As for the personalised themes, most of them have general appeal. I even saw on a recent social media post that Dylan is happy to work on theme builds using one-word prompts. That means there is probably very little input from the customer in helping Dylan arrive at his final vision for the artwork on the instrument.


exactly, that's the thing. The only reason why i want(ed) a Daemoness was because i had a theme in mind and wanted to go balls deep with the graphics and the inlay work, that i knew Dylan could deliver based on his previous work. But other than that, i don't understand waiting 5 years and 5k usd for essentially a Soloist. an custom ESP would probably run you for around the same dough, wait time should be considerably less, and i'd be hard pressed to believe that a Daemoness would be an objectively better guitar in any way, shape or form.

edit: missed a word


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## mehegama

Forkface said:


> exactly, that's the thing. The only reason why i want(ed) a Daemoness was because i had a theme in mind and wanted to go balls deep with the graphics and the inlay work, that i knew Dylan could deliver based on his previous work. But other than that, i don't understand waiting 5 years and 5k usd for essentially a Soloist. an custom ESP would probably run you for around the same dough, wait time should be considerably less, and i'd be hard pressed to believe that a Daemoness would an objectively better guitar in any way, shape or form.


not even close.. my custom shop ESP Horizons are on that price tag and in terms of quality they are the best guitars i be ever played. Waiting time from the day of the deposit till you hold it is max 1y. Now with the pandemic a bit more.


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## narad

mehegama said:


> not even close.. my custom shop ESP Horizons are on that price tag and in terms of quality they are the best guitars i be ever played. Waiting time from the day of the deposit till you hold it is max 1y. Now with the pandemic a bit more.



Sure, but those are built in large part by a bunch of students who are at worst paying for the opportunity, and comparatively super cheap labor at best. It's different when it's one guy building.


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## Adieu

spudmunkey said:


> This isn't unique to the guitar industry, either. Countless small furniture startups end up this way, too. it starts out with 1 guy in his garage, then 3, then they get a proper shop space, so they start taking on more work. Then, they get one huge "opportunity" they take on because it could "make" them. In the end, they often find out their low-price model isn't scalable, it is actually more work than they can handle, and they are lucky if it doesn't ruin them.
> 
> Small shops reach out to my office all the time saying "we're new and we have a CNC!, and our turn-around time for most orders is 5 days!" Then you send them a quote for 600 desks, and suddenly the leadtime extends to 8 weeks...that's a huge red flag that they are in over their head, and making our order means calling in every favor they have, and they are held together with hairpins and bubblegum. If they end up making the desk tops 1" too short, and they all need to be re-made, that single mistake, repeated 600 times, could completely wipe them out.



600 desks are a factory order not a craftsman with a workshop order though.


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## Adieu

narad said:


> Sure, but those are built in large part by a bunch of students who are at worst paying for the opportunity, and comparatively super cheap labor at best. It's different when it's one guy building.



ESP Custom Shops are built by trainees who pay to train?

Then who builds standards/e2's, juvenile hall inmates???

And what about Edwards, then? Retired monkeys evicted from the county zoo?


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## c7spheres

a Custom ESP Horizon III 7 string with inline headstock. That's a great design.


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## Vyn

narad said:


> Sure, but those are built in large part by a bunch of students who are at worst paying for the opportunity, and comparatively super cheap labor at best. It's different when it's one guy building.



Worth noting that the quality of work a Japanese ESP Custom Shop student guitar builder will put out shits on most US/UK builders easily. The attention to detail and pride those guys take in their work is amazing.


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## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> Sure, but those are built in large part by a bunch of students who are at worst paying for the opportunity, and comparatively super cheap labor at best. It's different when it's one guy building.



I doubt they are building customer guitars unsupervised or quality checked throughout their process. And if they aren't building customer guitars, then no harm done.


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## narad

Vyn said:


> Worth noting that the quality of work a Japanese ESP Custom Shop student guitar builder will put out shits on most US/UK builders easily. The attention to detail and pride those guys take in their work is amazing.






Jonathan20022 said:


> I doubt they are building customer guitars unsupervised or quality checked throughout their process. And if they aren't building customer guitars, then no harm done.



No, they're definitely working on customer guitars, but a whole lot of time guitar building is spent doing unskilled tedious busywork. It definitely helps productivity to have an army of low salary minions doing that stuff. So the comparison to US/UK builders is moot -- "wow, you sanded that neck so well you'd put a US/UK builder to shame easily" doesn't make a lot of sense.

But this is tangential talk. It's not about brand A vs brand B, it's about manufacturing. Dylan's definitely at a disadvantage in the UK, being fairly pricey and having a lot of small business rules. He had an apprentice at one point, but I think the kid ultimately wanted to focus on like four runners or something. If Dylan could hire 2 hardworking ESP-esque students for almost nothing, then certainly things would be much better at Daemoness HQ.


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## mehegama

narad said:


> No, they're definitely working on customer guitars, but a whole lot of time guitar building is spent doing unskilled tedious busywork. It definitely helps productivity to have an army of low salary minions doing that stuff. So the comparison to US/UK builders is moot -- "wow, you sanded that neck so well you'd put a US/UK builder to shame easily" doesn't make a lot of sense.
> 
> But this is tangential talk. It's not about brand A vs brand B, it's about manufacturing. Dylan's definitely at a disadvantage in the UK, being fairly pricey and having a lot of small business rules. He had an apprentice at one point, but I think the kid ultimately wanted to focus on like four runners or something. If Dylan could hire 2 hardworking ESP-esque students for almost nothing, then certainly things would be much better at Daemoness HQ.


Check the factory tour by premier guitar. Only 4 people work in the ESP cs and they are masterbuilders. They require you to have years and years of experience to even touch a cs guitar, so no it s not build by students. Also it is irrelevant with the discussion. We are talking about Dylan practices. At the end of the day he could hire someone do the tedious work. I m afraid he ll subcontract the rough tedious work in order to catch up and this will have a hit on the quality


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## possumkiller

Idk man. I think it's the drugs getting to him. I've seen it in so many friends that go from casual smokers to smoking three or four times a day. They slowly turn into babbling braindead imbeciles that can't complete a coherent sentence, much less a complicated task. Seeing him smoking drugs on his social media pictures had me worried years ago. Someone should stop by and check on him. Know the signs of addiction:
Dislocated pupils.
A distant stare.
Regular truancy.
Lack of appetite at meal times.


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## narad

mehegama said:


> Check the factory tour by premier guitar. Only 4 people work in the ESP cs and they are masterbuilders. They require you to have years and years of experience to even touch a cs guitar, so no it s not build by students. Also it is irrelevant with the discussion. We are talking about Dylan practices. At the end of the day he could hire someone do the tedious work. I m afraid he ll subcontract the rough tedious work in order to catch up and this will have a hit on the quality



That's not the only custom shop. And it became relevant as soon as you brought up the comparison. 

I mean, we're talking about different parts of the world -- if Dylan wants to move out to Tokyo I'm sure he can afford to have staff do the basic stuff cheaply. In the UK, I'm not sure (though I did contact him about interning while I was living in London, so who knows, maybe there's people like me out there).


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## prlgmnr

possumkiller said:


> Dislocated pupils..



man that _would_ be bad


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## mehegama

narad said:


> That's not the only custom shop. And it became relevant as soon as you brought up the comparison.
> 
> I mean, we're talking about different parts of the world -- if Dylan wants to move out to Tokyo I'm sure he can afford to have staff do the basic stuff cheaply. In the UK, I'm not sure (though I did contact him about interning while I was living in London, so who knows, maybe there's people like me out there).


Let's get the facts straight first. These days the ESP custom shops have been consolidated to Tokyo, so there is no Kiso,Sado etc. It s handled by a handful of people, which are definitely not low paid students, and my point is that they they are handling orders of magnitude more orders, in 1/5 of the time that Dylan takes (on top of the batch series they run with the Original series) and producing absolutely amazing instruments. I have multiple cs Horizons and they are the best guitars i ve ever played.

Now on our subject here, check the other shops of the same calibre like Skervesen, Ormsby, Blackat and other similar shops in tthe EU. Even though they offer a bit less choices, none is taking more than a year. It is obvious that his model is not sustainable and looks a bit like a ponzi scheme as someone said correctly before. Surviving on deposits and delaying the production until suddenly something likr this happen and people asking for the deposits back at the same time.. and then the whole thing colapses. I mean he does not see this coming? Why is he behaving like this it s beyond me


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## prlgmnr

He knows how people tend to be about sunk costs and that the majority of people would rather chuck in an extra 3/4 grand than lose the 600 quid.


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## narad

mehegama said:


> Now on our subject here, check the other shops of the same calibre like Skervesen, Ormsby, Blackat and other similar shops in tthe EU. Even though they offer a bit less choices, none is taking more than a year. It is obvious that his model is not sustainable and looks a bit like a ponzi scheme as someone said correctly before. Surviving on deposits and delaying the production until suddenly something likr this happen and people asking for the deposits back at the same time.. and then the whole thing colapses. I mean he does not see this coming? Why is he behaving like this it s beyond me



Man, now we're talking about Skervesen, Ormsby, and Blackat? This is like walking into a Michelin star restaurant and wondering why your food wasn't ready at McDonalds-speed.


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## mehegama

narad said:


> Man, now we're talking about Skervesen, Ormsby, and Blackat? This is like walking into a Michelin star restaurant and wondering why your food wasn't ready at McDonalds-speed.


If you are classifying Daemoness as a Michelin star restaurant and the other shops as McD, i think i ll disagree. Daemoness is a very good shop, especially on the artistic aspect of things - and that's why i put a deposit, but having played a Daemoness, a Skervesen and a Blackat before, I could not see much of a difference in playability to be honest. I think you are over glorifying Daemoness and bashing the other guys a bit unfairly. Especially lately they have been much more consistent than before.
In any case, my point is on how all the other guys are doing it (smaller and bigger) and how he is doing it.



prlgmnr said:


> He knows how people tend to be about sunk costs and that the majority of people would rather chuck in an extra 3/4 grand than lose the 600 quid.


This is very true. But for me, if i need to wait another 2 years for my build to begin, i think there is not a lot of sunk cost in my case..


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## JimF

Whilst I totally agree, I think a lot of the opinions about the state of the Daemoness business have come about from some earlier opinions being taken as fact.
It's all well founded and it seems incredibly likely, BUT there's a chance everything is going on as per usual, albeit extremely busy.

But it does seem likely that something is going awry.

With these small businesses, I totally understand that they simply don't have the money to take on someone at minimum wage even at part time, but do they not have a girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/brother/niece/auntie/cousin etc that could help out by coming over for an hour twice a week to answer non-quotation emails.
So they get Cousin Billy Bob to go round on Monday & Thursday, jump on the emails and in return the business owner buys them their dinner. They then break down the emails into categories.
Business owner then has a folder of quote requests, Cousin Billy Bob fires back generic replies to folks asking "can you use my own choice of wood" or "what is your current wait time" or "do you offer paisley topped explorers" etc, and takes the serious questions to Business owner verbally, so he can answer whilst changing belts on the sander, having a coffee etc, such as "What's the due date on my trans black V" etc etc.

I understand taking on a fulltime admin staff member would be unlikely for small businesses, but hell if Daemoness were up north I'd probably volunteer to do admin a couple of nights for them just to be around cool guitars and "involved" etc.


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## jephjacques

Narad I see the point you're trying to make but Skervesen makes stellar instruments these days (haven't played the other two, can't speak for them) and comparing them to fast food is just asinine.

The difference between Daemoness and a Michelin star restaurant is the restaurant has staff and will eventually bring out your food.


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## narad

jephjacques said:


> Narad I see the point you're trying to make but Skervesen makes stellar instruments these days (haven't played the other two, can't speak for them) and comparing them to fast food is just asinine.
> 
> The difference between Daemoness and a Michelin star restaurant is the restaurant has staff and will eventually bring out your food.



I was being facetious, but I've seen more egregious errors on Skervesens than the ones that started this thread FWIW. In terms of quality, all of this stuff is subjective. Other guy thinks ESP horizons are the best guitars ever, I have/had more than I can remember and overall would not rate ESP CS particularly high for the money, and not a huge fan of their labor practices. I've read reviews here of shoddy Blackats, but that company's on like it's 3rd reboot so I don't even know who is actually making them at this point.

In terms of productivity, none of this stuff is comparable. Shops with 5 guys make guitars 5 times faster? Man, blowing my mind here. And talks about hiring people, without also comparing Polish and Japan and UK wages and worker protections?

I've ordered two Daemonesses, delivered on schedule, no probs, btw, before the world went to shit.


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## JimF

Did this as a separate post as its not related to the above.

I've been unlucky enough to have to go through the small claims court in the UK so can advise my experience of it. This was about 5 years ago so some of it may be different.

Now mine was for much lower value (around £200/$250) but I believe the process would be similar for recovering the deposit.
Not saying it would be the same, just my experience of the process.

My claim was against an individual. I placed a wanted ad on a car forum for parts, person replied. I sent payment as a gift by PayPal (last time I ever did that).
Lots of excuses "I've sent the package" then "Its been returned" then asking for my mobile number and a family member of theirs texting me telling me the seller had been in a car accident.

I realised I wasn't going to see the parts nor the money. So it was a crusade of principles.

I looked into what I had to do. I issued the letter of intent and sent it by courier, on a service requiring a signature. I gave them two weeks to reply. After checking the letter had been received, and actually giving them THREE weeks for benefit of the doubt, and contacting them by email and phone several times, still no response.

Legal proceedings started!

The current "Small Claims Court" procedure for the value I was claiming is now an online process known as a "Moneyclaim Online".


Complete Moneyclaim Online application including both party's details and as much info as you have, including records of contact etc.
Then before anything starts, the other party receives a notice that you intend to proceed (this seemed like a duplication of the first letter I sent, but hey ho). I think this is an attempt at mediation before tying up the courts. After a certain amount of time with no response (think it was 2 weeks) you can progress to the next stage, providing you pay the fee of about £40 ($60) if I remember correctly. This fee will be recovered from the other party if the courts rule in your favour.
Legal proceedings are then started, and you are reminded that you are actually suing the other party. The claim is laid out, and the details sent to the other party for their side of the story. 
If things still look to be on your side, or the other party does not respond, then things proceed to a court date. Sometime around this point a further payment is required to go to court. Its around another £40 ($60). The other party is notified. Now in my case neither party were required to attend court. I don't even think you could choose to. It was most likely an entirely administrative affair. I don't think there was a judge and lawyer stood in an empty courtroom debating my missing Subaru parts 
Before the court date rolls round the other party has chance to respond now its getting serious. In my case, the other party did not respond, so the courts automatically ruled in my favour.
Success! I can get my money back plus my costs!
In theory...

The other party then gets a letter saying "you owe £XXX plus costs to this lovely man, this is court mandated". But the nice letters didn't work before, so they're unlikely to work now.
After a certain amount of time they decide asking won't do, and let you have the option of referring this to a debt collection agency. I believe this option costs about £70 ($100) which again you can claim back. At this point it had been dragging on MONTHS, and I decided to just cut my losses and move on.

Basically, even if the court rules in your favour, you aren't guaranteed to get your money back. The courts might agree that you're owed it, but I don't know how much they can do to get it to you.
That said, I was dealing with an individual, not a business.
Happy to be corrected on the above by anyone who knows more.


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## mlp187

Before this thread turns into a facsimile of the "Kiesel - Never Again" thread maybe we should re-cap what really know based on this thread:
(0) Nobody wants to see Daemoness go down this path.
(1) OP got a sub-par build after 5 years of waiting. Daemoness agreed, and OP received a refund. 
(2) Wait times were/are grossly incorrect for some people.
(3) Communication seems to be non-existent.

I don't really know what justification exists for those last three points. I hate that this is a conversation being had, and feel badly for all involved. Maybe this is a terrible blip and we'll see some happy customers soon. But no matter how you look at it, Daemoness is fucking up right now.


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## JimF

That's a much better phrasing of what I was trying to get at in my first post. We're taking earlier hunches as "facts" and all of a sudden Daemoness were going under, in our collective imaginations at least.


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## mehegama

narad said:


> I was being facetious, but I've seen more egregious errors on Skervesens than the ones that started this thread FWIW. In terms of quality, all of this stuff is subjective. Other guy thinks ESP horizons are the best guitars ever, I have/had more than I can remember and overall would not rate ESP CS particularly high for the money, and not a huge fan of their labor practices. I've read reviews here of shoddy Blackats, but that company's on like it's 3rd reboot so I don't even know who is actually making them at this point.
> 
> In terms of productivity, none of this stuff is comparable. Shops with 5 guys make guitars 5 times faster? Man, blowing my mind here. And talks about hiring people, without also comparing Polish and Japan and UK wages and worker protections?
> 
> I've ordered two Daemonesses, delivered on schedule, no probs, btw, before the world went to shit.


These are you personal opinions and I would disagree with them. You might be very happy with your orders but the OP and the the guy from Ecuador got screwed.
As i said above it is 5 people but with orders of magnitude more orders. That makes a big difference.
In any case are you ok with the situation? Do you think that "that s the way things are" and go on with it? I would not agree with that when things are clearly not ok.


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## mehegama

mlp187 said:


> Before this thread turns into a facsimile of the "Kiesel - Never Again" thread maybe we should re-cap what really know based on this thread:
> (0) Nobody wants to see Daemoness go down this path.
> (1) OP got a sub-par build after 5 years of waiting. Daemoness agreed, and OP received a refund.
> (2) Wait times were/are grossly incorrect for some people.
> (3) Communication seems to be non-existent.
> 
> I don't really know what justification exists for those last three points. I hate that this is a conversation being had, and feel badly for all involved. Maybe this is a terrible blip and we'll see some happy customers soon. But no matter how you look at it, Daemoness is fucking up right now.


I agree 100%. I dont want to be taken wrongly. I m expressing serious concerns about my situation given the facts: the OP's experience, many people here waiting for many years more than the quoted 30 months, 0 communication. 
I love his work and that's why I paid my deposit. I want him to thrive and be successful and maybe buy more in the future. I said I m willing to wait for more but clarified that if it is going to be an extra 3 years i m out. And that's just me.


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## narad

mehegama said:


> These are you personal opinions and I would disagree with them. You might be very happy with your orders but the OP and the the guy from Ecuador got screwed.
> As i said above it is 5 people but with orders of magnitude more orders. That makes a big difference.
> In any case are you ok with the situation? Do you think that "that s the way things are" and go on with it? I would not agree with that when things are clearly not ok.



Of course it's not "ok". I have a deposit in too, btw. But you can't order from solo in-demand builders and expect guitars get delivered on time. That's not a justification, that's just a reality. I don't expect to see my guitar for at least another 2 years, probably more like 3, and I'm in the next batch. And I think in terms of court judgements, getting your deposit back is not likely. 

So really I'm just adopting the attitude of letting some time go by and seeing what happens. Now is a tough time for many people. And people also seem to forget that Dylan is in his late 30s and has been building guitars as his passion and primary career for his adult life. What is he going to do if Daemoness fails? Turn in all the deposits and buy a Ferrari? If you get to do something you're passionate about for a living, that's one of the greatest things anyone can wish for, and I don't think he would throw it away for a short-term quick cash in.

So yea, I'm worried, but speculating about worst-case scenarios or motives (as seems to be the topic here) is not helpful either. The only question I want answered is why did Barnes leave and was it really on bad terms?


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## mehegama

narad said:


> Of course it's not "ok". I have a deposit in too, btw. But you can't order from solo in-demand builders and expect guitars get delivered on time. That's not a justification, that's just a reality. I don't expect to see my guitar for at least another 2 years, probably more like 3, and I'm in the next batch. And I think in terms of court judgements, getting your deposit back is not likely.
> 
> So really I'm just adopting the attitude of letting some time go by and seeing what happens. Now is a tough time for many people. And people also seem to forget that Dylan is in his late 30s and has been building guitars as his passion and primary career for his adult life. What is he going to do if Daemoness fails? Turn in all the deposits and buy a Ferrari? If you get to do something you're passionate about for a living, that's one of the greatest things anyone can wish for, and I don't think he would throw it away for a short-term quick cash in.
> 
> So yea, I'm worried, but speculating about worst-case scenarios or motives (as seems to be the topic here) is not helpful either. The only question I want answered is why did Barnes leave and was it really on bad terms?


And as I said I m going to do the same, within reason however. I understand that it s a project that requires time but I m expecting transparency. If the real time is 3 years extra, I think I m entitled to know that. The total ghosting is what annoys me most. And if you read my posts that is my primary complaint in my case. Reading the waiting times from other people here makes me even more nervous and not hearing a thing from him, makes speculation appear.


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## possumkiller

JimF said:


> That's a much better phrasing of what I was trying to get at in my first post. We're taking earlier hunches as "facts" and all of a sudden Daemoness were going under, in our collective imaginations at least.


In my imagination he's locked himself up in his shop and is working on guitars and just too busy and exhausted to deal with emailing everyone.


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## JimF

Yes exactly!


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## possumkiller

mehegama said:


> the guy from Ecuador got screwed.


Completely off topic but since I've moved to Poland, I've noticed when I order parts and gear from wealthier EU countries as well as the UK and US, I have been getting sent their b-stock shit. 
Needed a strat pickguard with countersunk holes and the 60s trussrod notch. Couldn't find one in Poland so I ordered one from the states. I got one with a big melted spot on it.
Ordered a Strat neck from Germany. Got one with a big black streak from the edge of a knot. Ordered a different strat neck and got one tinted so much it looked brown (50s maple neck). It's happened too many times to just be coincidence. Apparently people think that if you live in some "third world shithole" they can just send you whatever blemished or damaged goods they can't sell in their shop.


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## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> No, they're definitely working on customer guitars, but a whole lot of time guitar building is spent doing unskilled tedious busywork. It definitely helps productivity to have an army of low salary minions doing that stuff. So the comparison to US/UK builders is moot -- "wow, you sanded that neck so well you'd put a US/UK builder to shame easily" doesn't make a lot of sense.



Your last point is fair, the comparison isn't 1:1 so it shouldn't be held to a standard that isn't reasonable like comparing different work force conditions.

However what I said still remains true, if they're working on customer guitars they definitely are not doing so unsupervised or work checked. And if they are doing tedious menial simple stuff to the guitars, then it lends itself to why even bring it up that "students" are working on the guitars. I think the point of saying "These are still built in *large part* by students" is to convey that you are not getting a competent, seasoned builder working on your custom shop instrument.

You can't rely on that, and also disparage my points on the import market and cheaper labor from historically unreliable builders from the strandberg going indo/chinese discussion we've had over the years.



> But you can't order from solo in-demand builders and expect guitars get delivered on time.



This isn't a good take, and it never will be. Why is Daemoness quoting people putting in deposits at 30 months, and historically it takes 45 - 60 months? It is absolutely an expectation to be delivered agreed goods on time, if it takes 5 - 6 years to get the guitar then fucking quote me the appropriate time. Anything less than giving yourself ample lead time is deceptive, and that's the narrative nearly every Daemoness owner or deposit holder tells me and other people.

Maybe it's not as attractive for a prospective to throw a few hundred down the drain when they look at a brand and see half a decade of average wait time. But that's a better outcome than citing half the wait, taking money on the order, and surprise 30 months begins from the skype call!

Moreover, you have to be in a niche environment like SSO to even be told by previous customers what your wait time really is. I'd wager there are a couple of your avg guitar players who just ran into the brand took the information at face value and put in an order fully expecting what the manufacturer is quoting to happen.


----------



## Forkface

mlp187 said:


> Before this thread turns into a facsimile of the "Kiesel - Never Again" thread maybe we should re-cap what really know based on this thread:
> (0) Nobody wants to see Daemoness go down this path.
> (1) OP got a sub-par build after 5 years of waiting. Daemoness agreed, and OP received a refund.
> (2) Wait times were/are grossly incorrect for some people.
> (3) Communication seems to be non-existent.
> 
> I don't really know what justification exists for those last three points. I hate that this is a conversation being had, and feel badly for all involved. Maybe this is a terrible blip and we'll see some happy customers soon. But no matter how you look at it, Daemoness is fucking up right now.



i think we might have to add that people got their pricing changed without notice. That and the wait time miscalculation is more than enough to give someone shivers


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Well he's def still building guitars and I know of a guy in the States that received 2 of them a few weeks back and is very happy with them and another guy in England who got his. There is another one completed and waiting on the customer from India to collect it ( he does not trust customs in India apparently so is not gonna risk it being shipped to him). There's prob 3 or 4 more imminent or maybe they have already been shipped out. On the subject of Dylan smoking weed...when I spoke to him around Xmas time last year he had given it up and if he has stuck to it that would be him off it for 7 months now.


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> Your last point is fair, the comparison isn't 1:1 so it shouldn't be held to a standard that isn't reasonable like comparing different work force conditions.
> 
> However what I said still remains true, if they're working on customer guitars they definitely are not doing so unsupervised or work checked. And if they are doing tedious menial simple stuff to the guitars, then it lends itself to why even bring it up that "students" are working on the guitars. I think the point of saying "These are still built in *large part* by students" is to convey that you are not getting a competent, seasoned builder working on your custom shop instrument.



Not my point at all. I'm not talking about quality at all. I'm talking about the work you as a guitar company can get done for $X dollars. 

I bring up the students because they work for low wages. You can't just say, "Dylan should hire more staff" because the pool he has to draw from in Bristol is not the same as the pool ESP has to draw from in Tokyo, etc. Plus I imagine that in working at Daemoness HQ, culture fit is pretty damn important.


----------



## Forkface

possumkiller said:


> In my imagination he's locked himself up in his shop and is working on guitars and just too busy and exhausted to deal with emailing everyone.


yeah but that's exactly the thing. even if he IS doing that, someone needs to take care of waiting customers. Communication can be as important as the product itself especially with shops like this, and wait times like this. 
Honestly, for any new prospect customers, one look at this thread WILL sway people away. Even if its all rumors/heresay/whathaveya, The lack of actual truths makes the collective opinion of the group a reality.

Like, i really _really _dont want Daemoness to go under. i love his work. BUT after this, i will not be ordering from him. Why? because i do not want to deal with uncertainty.


----------



## mehegama

possumkiller said:


> Completely off topic but since I've moved to Poland, I've noticed when I order parts and gear from wealthier EU countries as well as the UK and US, I have been getting sent their b-stock shit.
> Needed a strat pickguard with countersunk holes and the 60s trussrod notch. Couldn't find one in Poland so I ordered one from the states. I got one with a big melted spot on it.
> Ordered a Strat neck from Germany. Got one with a big black streak from the edge of a knot. Ordered a different strat neck and got one tinted so much it looked brown (50s maple neck). It's happened too many times to just be coincidence. Apparently people think that if you live in some "third world shithole" they can just send you whatever blemished or damaged goods they can't sell in their shop.


Wow. that 's really sad if true. I hope you were able to resolve things.


----------



## Forkface

narad said:


> Not my point at all. I'm not talking about quality at all. I'm talking about the work you as a guitar company can get done for $X dollars.
> I bring up the students because they work for low wages. You can't just say, "Dylan should hire more staff" because the pool he has to draw from in Bristol is not the same as the pool ESP has to draw from in Tokyo, etc. Plus I imagine that in working at Daemoness HQ, culture fit is pretty damn important.



i mean, honestly. we CAN just say that. maybe is not as easy, or not easy at all. but it does seem to be a solution to a lot of the issues hes having now.
Maybe what he shouldN'T do is take 5 years worth of orders. just a thought.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Not my point at all. I'm not talking about quality at all. I'm talking about the work you as a guitar company can get done for $X dollars.
> 
> I bring up the students because they work for low wages. You can't just say, "Dylan should hire more staff" because the pool he has to draw from in Bristol is not the same as the pool ESP has to draw from in Tokyo, etc. Plus I imagine that in working at Daemoness HQ, culture fit is pretty damn important.


Then the solution is to quote 60-70 months. Not "30 and trying to reduce it". To this moment, that s what it says in the website and the book is still open for orders.


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> Not my point at all. I'm not talking about quality at all. I'm talking about the work you as a guitar company can get done for $X dollars.
> 
> I bring up the students because they work for low wages. You can't just say, "Dylan should hire more staff" because the pool he has to draw from in Bristol is not the same as the pool ESP has to draw from in Tokyo, etc. Plus I imagine that in working at Daemoness HQ, culture fit is pretty damn important.



I'm not big on the "it's pretty hard so lets not try" mentality.

Dylan's outreach isn't Bristol, and I wager he can open up interest in working at his shop worldwide with his social media reach and get enough valid/skilled applicants to weed through and find some capable hands to fill in the gaps.

I wasn't really addressing any concerns of understaffing in the first place, I was more just talking about the assumption that ESP's Custom Shop is in the hands of students which carries a strange message.

My point still stands about the wait time, if you have to join a niche forum to be told by brand vets that the wait is 2x the advertised quote, then that's deceptive.


----------



## mastapimp

possumkiller said:


> Idk man. I think it's the drugs getting to him.



This was one of the main factors I decided not to get into the queue back about 7 or 8 years ago. He's since scrubbed his social media of this kinda stuff, but i recall several photos of him baked out of his mind in the shop. Anyone else remember the gas-mask photos? I get along great with plenty of stoners, but you gotta keep that stuff separate from your professional life and professional reputation if you wanna be taken seriously.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

JimF said:


> With these small businesses, I totally understand that they simply don't have the money to take on someone at minimum wage even at part time, but do they not have a girlfriend/wife/boyfriend/brother/niece/auntie/cousin etc that could help out by coming over for an hour twice a week to answer non-quotation emails.



I don't think asking family or friends to work for free is the solution. Some of the things you're describing are better accomplished by email inbox filters anyway, such as by asking customers to use specific tags in the subject line.

Do we know approximately how many people are on the waitlist? Are we talking a couple dozen people, or 100+? 

I'd think putting aside an hour a day to catch up on emails would be plenty for Dylan to satisfy most queries in a reasonable timeframe (e.g. 2 weeks). Updates on in-progress guitars and communicating with customers on incoming builds for a final concept/specification pass would be the priority. It is probably a waste of time to be exchanging in-depth emails with anyone further back in the queue. I've seen a few people on here do a 180 on their Daemoness design when their build slot came up. 

Dylan could just have an auto reply message or email signature to answer any waitlist queries. It doesn't need to be complicated, it just needs to be transparent. 




narad said:


> And people also seem to forget that Dylan is in his late 30s and has been building guitars as his passion and primary career for his adult life. What is he going to do if Daemoness fails? Turn in all the deposits and buy a Ferrari? If you get to do something you're passionate about for a living, that's one of the greatest things anyone can wish for, and I don't think he would throw it away for a short-term quick cash in.



I know you're being facetious again, and in my opinion nothing malicious is going on, but the problem with what your saying is that all luthiers should want to keep their dream job in theory, yet there's probably a dozen examples on this forum alone of builders that took the money and ran.

Dylan has a lot invested in this and is at the top of his game despite the mismanagement that's been going on. I sincerely doubt he'll walk away. How he'll choose to fix the problem (and whether or not he'll address it openly) is another topic altogether. 

Having said that, it's not like Dylan couldn't move into an analogous line of work. He could do album art, he could do tour posters, he could do private painting commissions, he could sell his work in galleries. Contrary to popular belief, those avenues are booming for an upper echelon of professional artists. 

It isn't just social media that's caused the boom either--look at how the tanking music industry upped merchandise sales, and the trickle down effect that's had on artists in the employ of bands. There's been a renaissance in screenprinting over the last 15+ years, not only for bands commissioning high-end tour posters to commemorate special shows, but also the rise of companies like Mondo which sell re-imagined movie posters. A lot of artists that cut their teeth that way now carve out a living selling their work online because they've developed such a following.

Dylan could make the shift if he wanted to. I'm sure he loves luthiery, but in other ways it's like his guitars have become commissioned artwork with extra steps. The main benefit he has now is that he has the graphic-guitar market cornered. There's a lot more competition in the art world at large.


----------



## narad

Forkface said:


> i mean, honestly. we CAN just say that. maybe is not as easy, or not easy at all. but it does seem to be a solution to a lot of the issues hes having now.
> Maybe what he shouldN'T do is take 5 years worth of orders. just a thought.



He's handled 5 years worth of orders by himself just fine before. 

Anyway, it's starting to seem a bit circlejerky so I'm going to bow out until there's some legit new information coming through. Personally I don't spend my days writing unsolicited career advice to people who aren't even reading it. Of course things would be better if the queue was shorter or if the estimates were accurate. OF COURSE. But that's not really ever been the industry standard for in-demand solo builders. Do we deserve better? I don't know - vote with your money and find out. 

For me, if I want a guitar built on time I'm going with a Mayones or Aristides type large team build company, but neither of those places can one-off custom a guitar for you to a Daemoness extreme.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Just to chime in about getting more help. I know of 4 boutique custom shops that spent the time training in apprentices only for them to soon leave. I think it was Ormsby who used to be quite vocal about it. Saying it cost him months worth of time training them in and he would never recommend it. All four ended up falling far behind on their build queue as a result. A lot of these guys are nearly on minimum wage for the amount of hours they put in so taking on someone else is a big risk.

Communication is something that can be done by the builder but requires the business skills to stay on top of it. It’s been said by many people on this forum that artists rarely make good businessmen.


----------



## Forkface

narad said:


> Anyway, it's starting to seem a bit circlejerky


ha, love to see it. "people not agreeing with ME?! circlejerk!"
anyway, hopefully Dylan issues some statement soon and puts this all to rest.


----------



## StevenC

Lorcan Ward said:


> Just to chime in about getting more help. I know of 4 boutique custom shops that spent the time training in apprentices only for them to soon leave. I think it was Ormsby who used to be quite vocal about it. Saying it cost him months worth of time training them in and he would never recommend it. All four ended up falling far behind on their build queue as a result. A lot of these guys are nearly on minimum wage for the amount of hours they put in so taking on someone else is a big risk.
> 
> Communication is something that can be done by the builder but requires the business skills to stay on top of it. It’s been said by many people on this forum that artists rarely make good businessmen.


Yes, just ask Waghorn about training apprentices.


----------



## I play music

mehegama said:


> Then the solution is to quote 60-70 months. Not "30 and trying to reduce it". To this moment, that s what it says in the website and the book is still open for orders.


Maybe the solution would have been a totally different approach. Like not doing custom orders at all. Just Dylan making piece of art guitars with fancy inlays and everything how he personally as an artist thinks it would be cool and selling them as stock once completed. I think there's easily enough people that would buy these for at least the same price that he's charging for customs. If they sell within seconds -like Abasi- just increase the price a bit.


----------



## JimF

Sermo Lupi said:


> I don't think asking family or friends to work for free is the solution. Some of the things you're describing are better accomplished by email inbox filters anyway, such as by asking customers to use specific tags in the subject line.
> 
> I'd think putting aside an hour a day to catch up on emails would be plenty for Dylan to satisfy most queries....



Oh of course that would be a much better solution, but the answer would be "I'm too busy man! I'm doing artist builds after hours!", I was just brainstorming something that could be implemented instantly that wouldn't take away from Dylan's time building. Zero cost short term solution. But like we've said, Dylan probably isn't aware that 12 people on a guitar forum are concerned.


----------



## mehegama

JimF said:


> Oh of course that would be a much better solution, but the answer would be "I'm too busy man! I'm doing artist builds after hours!", I was just brainstorming something that could be implemented instantly that wouldn't take away from Dylan's time building. Zero cost short term solution. But like we've said, Dylan probably isn't aware that 12 people on a guitar forum are concerned.


Well having sent him messages on all possible platforms, after 28 months of pretty much having forgotten about it, should have concerned him..


----------



## StevenC

I play music said:


> Maybe the solution would have been a totally different approach. Like not doing custom orders at all. Just Dylan making piece of art guitars with fancy inlays and everything how he personally as an artist thinks it would be cool and selling them as stock once completed. I think there's easily enough people that would buy these for at least the same price that he's charging for customs. If they sell within seconds -like Abasi- just increase the price a bit.


Isn't this how you get Blackmachine?


----------



## Forkface

JimF said:


> But like we've said, Dylan probably isn't aware that 12 people on a guitar forum are concerned.


well, when you deal with such a niche market i feel like part of the business should be keeping up with stuff like this. I feel that SSO members may collectively hold a relatively important percentage of his builds.


----------



## Nlelith

possumkiller said:


> Completely off topic but since I've moved to Poland, I've noticed when I order parts and gear from wealthier EU countries as well as the UK and US, I have been getting sent their b-stock shit.


As someone from Kazakhstan, I want to chime in on this and say that this probably depends on the store. Thomann has never let me down in this regard, all instruments and parts I got from them were good. And my Schecter Banshee I got from Drum City Guitarland? I asked for more tubular quilt, and they sent me photos of what they had in stock so I could choose which one I want.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Forkface said:


> ha, love to see it. "people not agreeing with ME?! circlejerk!"
> anyway, hopefully Dylan issues some statement soon and puts this all to rest.



Cant see how Dylan weighing on could change anything. We already know he makes excuses (‘eye strain’ lol).

Actions speak louder. Fortunately, @IbanezDaemon has said he knows people who received good guitars recently. That’s all that matters.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Actions speak louder. Fortunately, @IbanezDaemon has said he knows people who received good guitars recently. That’s all that matters.



Black lives, also.


----------



## possumkiller

Flappydoodle said:


> Cant see how Dylan weighing on could change anything. We already know he makes excuses (‘eye strain’ lol).
> 
> Actions speak louder. Fortunately, @IbanezDaemon has said he knows people who received good guitars recently. That’s all that matters.


Exactly. I would much rather he spend time catching up on orders and delivering guitars than trying to reply to endless emails to explain the situation. Every builder that went tits up posted updates of excuses and explanations and other useless words.


----------



## Blytheryn

Two guys in the Daemoness Guitars Owners and General Discussion group on Facebook have received guitars lately.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Two guys in the Daemoness Guitars Owners and General Discussion group on Facebook have received guitars lately.


indeed. these were orders from late 14/early 15 though....


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> indeed. these were orders form late 14/early 15 though....



Then I guess that should reflect what the accurate wait time is at the moment. *shrug*


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Then I guess that should reflect what the accurate wait time is at the moment. *shrug*


yep, i think the expectation is 65 months for people that put deposits in 16/17. For people that put deposits later might be more given that the brand has become even more popular the last 3 years with guitars to Jari and 1349


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> yep, i think the expectation is 65 months for people that put deposits in 16/17. For people that put deposits later might be more given that the brand has become even more popular the last 3 years with guitars to Jari and 1349



If I had to guess, they're less popular now than they were 3+ years ago. No question that's the case on SSO.


----------



## bzhang9

Lorcan Ward said:


> Just to chime in about getting more help. I know of 4 boutique custom shops that spent the time training in apprentices only for them to soon leave. I think it was Ormsby who used to be quite vocal about it. Saying it cost him months worth of time training them in and he would never recommend it. All four ended up falling far behind on their build queue as a result. A lot of these guys are nearly on minimum wage for the amount of hours they put in so taking on someone else is a big risk.
> 
> Communication is something that can be done by the builder but requires the business skills to stay on top of it. It’s been said by many people on this forum that artists rarely make good businessmen.



so pay them minimum wage, get mad they are trainees and are slow, expect them to stay forever? sounds reasonable



narad said:


> If I had to guess, they're less popular now than they were 3+ years ago. No question that's the case on SSO.



too many modern customs, headless, multiscale stuff competing, and kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality

imagine putting deposit down now, get a regular-ish guitar for 5k 5-6 years later only to look around at what 5k can get you 5-6 years from now, some sick designs will be out then that's for sure


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bzhang9 said:


> so pay them minimum wage, get mad they are trainees and are slow, expect them to stay forever? sounds reasonable



I don't think you understand how apprenticeships work.


----------



## narad

bzhang9 said:


> too many modern customs, headless, multiscale stuff competing, and kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality



Of all the reasons that Daemoness is not as popular as it once was, "Kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality" didn't come to mind.


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> Of all the reasons that Daemoness is not as popular as it once was, "Kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality" didn't come to mind.



I laughed out loud to this.


----------



## pahulkster

I just can't see the point unless you need some kind of super specialized inlay work done in his specific style. It will never live up to the hype with that wait period, and you're likely to get cynical and turned off way before that.


----------



## I play music

pahulkster said:


> I just can't see the point *unless you need* some kind of super specialized inlay work done in his specific style. It will never live up to the hype with that wait period, and you're likely to get cynical and turned off way before that.


Maybe you want but you never need ..


----------



## prlgmnr

pahulkster said:


> you're likely to get cynical and turned off way before that


can confirm


----------



## Blytheryn

prlgmnr said:


> can confirm



So I’m the only person here who doesn’t really care when the guitar arrives and still thinks my original idea is as cool as the day I sent it in?


----------



## Merrekof

Blytheryn said:


> So I’m the only person here who doesn’t really care when the guitar arrives and still thinks my original idea is as cool as the day I sent it in?


Depends on your personality. I am an indecisive person so 5 year waiting for a custom guitar won't work for me. And not trying to bash Deamoness in any way but imo, the only thing setting them apart from others are their extremely detailed inlays. (If only he'd sell just the necks with an AANJ, I'd be all over them)

I had to wait 4 months on my Dingwall Combustion 5 and in those 4 months I changed my mind twice about what colour I wanted. Can you imagine what kind of hell I'd go through if you let me wait 5, 6 or 7 years!?


----------



## Blytheryn

Merrekof said:


> Depends on your personality. I am an indecisive person so 5 year waiting for a custom guitar won't work for me. And not trying to bash Deamoness in any way but imo, the only thing setting them apart from others are their extremely detailed inlays. (If only he'd sell just the necks with an AANJ, I'd be all over them)
> 
> I had to wait 4 months on my Dingwall Combustion 5 and in those 4 months I changed my mind twice about what colour I wanted. Can you imagine what kind of hell I'd go through if you let me wait 5, 6 or 7 years!?


Oh I completely understand. As it so happens, 99% of the time the only color I will consider a guitar in is matte black, so I’m not bothered with that at all.


----------



## mehegama

Merrekof said:


> Depends on your personality. I am an indecisive person so 5 year waiting for a custom guitar won't work for me. And not trying to bash Deamoness in any way but imo, the only thing setting them apart from others are their extremely detailed inlays. (If only he'd sell just the necks with an AANJ, I'd be all over them)
> 
> I had to wait 4 months on my Dingwall Combustion 5 and in those 4 months I changed my mind twice about what colour I wanted. Can you imagine what kind of hell I'd go through if you let me wait 5, 6 or 7 years!?


I m not that extreme but in my case I have definitely changed my mind on the design. I waned a graphic/paint on the body, but waiting for 2.5 years now i think that s a bit tacky. Also the inlay i had in mind is not simple but many other shops can do it too, so i think, apart form the fact that i got so turned off with the waiting times situation, you realise that you could have the same thing from another shop much cheaper and in less than a year. My Daemoness build will definitely be much less extravagant than the one I initially submitted.


----------



## bzhang9

narad said:


> Of all the reasons that Daemoness is not as popular as it once was, "Kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality" didn't come to mind.





Blytheryn said:


> I laughed out loud to this.



if you're on the Kiesel hate train it might be funny, but is it not true though? which other custom builder can match their price/quality/speed? How do you explain their rapid rise to become the most popular custom builder?

before putting down $5k for a 5 year wait, you would not want to check out what you can get for $1-2k and a few month wait? Unless all you care about is the name and his artwork, there are too many options.


----------



## Jeff

narad said:


> Of all the reasons that Daemoness is not as popular as it once was, "Kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality" didn't come to mind.



I think the Daemoness guy needs to spend more time on Instagram and Facebook, letting people know what “sick” projects he’s working on, and inviting people to become part of the “Daemoness Family!”


----------



## I play music

bzhang9 said:


> if you're on the Kiesel hate train it might be funny, but is it not true though? which other custom builder can match their price/quality/speed? How do you explain their rapid rise to become the most popular custom builder?
> 
> before putting down $5k for a 5 year wait, you would not want to check out what you can get for $1-2k and a few month wait? Unless all you care about is the name and his artwork, there are too many options.


Kiesel do not even do what I consider custom builds. Maybe semi custom because of selectable specs. But go to them and tell them you want a 28.5" scale guitar. Good luck.


----------



## xzacx

bzhang9 said:


> if you're on the Kiesel hate train it might be funny, but is it not true though? which other custom builder can match their price/quality/speed? How do you explain their rapid rise to become the most popular custom builder?
> 
> before putting down $5k for a 5 year wait, you would not want to check out what you can get for $1-2k and a few month wait? Unless all you care about is the name and his artwork, there are too many options.



If you were interested in putting down $5k for a 5 year wait, you probably don’t see what Kiesel has to offer as a suitable replacement. That’s not a knock or hate train, just a different customer.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

I play music said:


> Kiesel do not even do what I consider custom builds. Maybe semi custom because of selectable specs. But go to them and tell them you want a 28.5" scale guitar. Good luck.


not really a good example considering daemoness won't do scale lengths over 27.5". Same thing with body shapes. dylan rarely does one off custom bodies. 
On the flipside, Tom Waghorn will definitely do a true full custom build including scale lengths/body shapes.


----------



## narad

bzhang9 said:


> if you're on the Kiesel hate train it might be funny, but is it not true though? which other custom builder can match their price/quality/speed? How do you explain their rapid rise to become the most popular custom builder?



Marketing and low prices. Do you think nobody can match the price/quality/speed of headphones from Beats by Dre?



KnightBrolaire said:


> not really a good example considering daemoness won't do scale lengths over 27.5". Same thing with body shapes. dylan rarely does one off custom bodies.
> On the flipside, Tom Waghorn will definitely do a true full custom build including scale lengths/body shapes.



Dylan's totally open to one-off bodies. He's done a bunch. I don't know about scale but I think it'd be very bizarre to look at the guitars Dylan's made and say...whelp, none are over 27.5" so guess these aren't full customs.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Marketing and low prices. Do you think nobody can match the price/quality/speed of headphones from Beats by Dre?
> 
> 
> 
> Dylan's totally open to one-off bodies. He's done a bunch. I don't know about scale but I think it'd be very bizarre to look at the guitars Dylan's made and say...whelp, none are over 27.5" so guess these aren't full customs.


But Dylan does offer most of the known bodies anyways. Also any headstock one wants as well. You don’t need to do a completely new body to say you went custom. The word custom by definition is refering to your own personal specs.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> Marketing and low prices. Do you think nobody can match the price/quality/speed of headphones from Beats by Dre?
> 
> 
> 
> Dylan's totally open to one-off bodies. He's done a bunch. I don't know about scale but I think it'd be very bizarre to look at the guitars Dylan's made and say...whelp, none are over 27.5" so guess these aren't full customs.


I've talked with him about doing one-off bodies, and he's very selective about what he wants to build, but it's kind of disingenuous to act like he'll do any body shape.
Waghorn is very open about doing one-off bodies regardless of his personal tastes, which is more in line with my personal idea of what a full custom shop entails.
Same thing with scale lengths and fans on multiscales. Tom will make whatever idea you have work, Dylan will just straight up tell you that he doesn't do that.


----------



## Blytheryn

bzhang9 said:


> if you're on the Kiesel hate train it might be funny, but is it not true though? which other custom builder can match their price/quality/speed? How do you explain their rapid rise to become the most popular custom builder?
> 
> before putting down $5k for a 5 year wait, you would not want to check out what you can get for $1-2k and a few month wait? Unless all you care about is the name and his artwork, there are too many options.



Sure. Valid points. But the reason I went with Daemoness is that no other shop would do what I want for that price point. I’m going for a specific theme with a specific inlay, and translated by a guy who likes the idea just as much as I do. For that reason, and that reason alone, I went with Daemoness. If it takes 1 year, fine. If it takes five? Who cares. The guitar will be rad in the end. It’s not like I’m in a hurry to get it.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Marketing and low prices. Do you think nobody can match the price/quality/speed of headphones from Beats by Dre?



The headphones comparison is a pretty poor one. If anything the mass-market marketing-reliant brands of the guitar world would be your LTDs and ESPs with all their ads and massive endorsements. Maybe your "Dr Dre" comparison would fit something like the various image-driven resurgences of BC Rich and Deans at some point. Those that had no clear direction, were just different builds from random import factories...? Ibanez would be your Sony I guess (everything from crap to great at inflated price). Maybe Kiesel your Beyerdynamics or things of the sort and Daemoness (if they did deliver) would ... I don't know maybe be the Ultrasone or Abyss...?

Constant price/quality/speed for something to your specs is definitely what sets Kiesel apart, sorry to burst anyone's bubble.
Their marketing is pretty measly all things considered.



narad said:


> Dylan's totally open to one-off bodies. He's done a bunch. I don't know about scale but I think it'd be very bizarre to look at the guitars Dylan's made and say...whelp, none are over 27.5" so guess these aren't full customs.



Definitely agreed here, he would clearly fall in the custom end of the range.



xzacx said:


> If you were interested in putting down $5k for a 5 year wait, you probably don’t see what Kiesel has to offer as a suitable replacement. That’s not a knock or hate train, just a different customer.



Sometimes it's a definitely different customer with a good reason (a custom guitar shape with unusual specs, specific artistic vision in the case of Daemoness).
Sometimes it's also just being stubborn, elitist or narrow-minded, or buying into the SSO prejudice against them like we again see above .
If all you want is a matte black superstrat in standard scale, you lose nothing by _trying _a Kiesel..except a logo on the headstock and the satisfaction or bragging rights of those additional 3k$ or 5 years. And that's a _very_ limited example on purpose as we know they have all sorts of stuff nowadays (doublenecks and 8 string multiscale headless in ridiculous finishes etc...).



Blytheryn said:


> Sure. Valid points. But the reason I went with Daemoness is that no other shop would do what I want for that price point. I’m going for a specific theme with a specific inlay, and translated by a guy who likes the idea just as much as I do. For that reason, and that reason alone, I went with Daemoness. If it takes 1 year, fine. If it takes five? Who cares. The guitar will be rad in the end. It’s not like I’m in a hurry to get it.



For something unique, it makes sense for someone who doesn't mind the wait.
Can't help but think you'd definitely like Kiesel though, especially with your use of the word _rad _ .


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> yep, i think the expectation is 65 months for people that put deposits in 16/17. For people that put deposits later might be more given that the brand has become even more popular the last 3 years with guitars to Jari and 1349



Ah yes. Jari and 1349. Renowned endorsees responsible for the sales of thousands of guitars. Lets be real. Bulb is responsible for more Daemoness deposits than Jari and 1349 will be for the next five years.


----------



## SamSam

narad said:


> Of all the reasons that Daemoness is not as popular as it once was, "Kiesel revolutionizing custom shop prices and speed without sacrificing quality" didn't come to mind.



In his mind Jeff probably has. Don't you know he pioneered the northern lights finish! None of those other amateurs possess Jeff's vision and ingenuity!


----------



## mbardu

SamSam said:


> In his mind Jeff probably has. Don't you know he pioneered the northern lights finish! None of those other amateurs possess Jeff's vision and ingenuity!



Hey now, don't forget he also invented headless and fanned frets 

Seriously though, the owner aside, I don't think I've ever seen argued that Kiesel is actually inventing that much in the guitar world. What they do is take a design, tweak it, and make it customizable to your specs within reason. The tweaks work better on some instruments than others (love the Vader/Crescent, not so much their singlecuts, and I could barf at the sight of a CL). Once tweaked though, their quality, speed and consistency is there across the lineup. And that was more the message you're quoting rather than anything about vision or ingenuity.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Cool, now we're going to get five pages of Kiesel back and forth.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Cool, now we're going to get five pages of Kiesel back and forth.



You know we know it's your guilty pleasure too, right


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> You know we know it's your guilty pleasure too, right



It's reached "buy a used Prestige" levels of ubiquity at this point.


----------



## bzhang9

hilarious how there is this huge kiesel hate mob just dying to jump on any opportunity to bash them, just zone in on one comment and derail everything

I still stand by what I said, marketing/finishes/design is opinion, but their consistent quality/speed/pricing cannot be touched by other customs, I say this despite them not being my favorite, having owned many but currently 0. On top of having decent return policy and the security that you won't get ripped off eg taking your money and ghosting.

one of many reasons boutique builders are on the decline


----------



## SamSam

Are boutique builders really on the decline though? Or is it just the few ss.org favourites who we believe may be in decline? 

And I wouldn't say Daemoness is in decline, dylan appears to have way more orders pending than he can currently manage. 6 years or whenever I got mine that certainly wasn't the case. So overall his demand appears to be far greater than what we perceive his "peak" to have been?


----------



## SamSam

bzhang9 said:


> hilarious how there is this huge kiesel hate mob just dying to jump on any opportunity to bash them, just zone in on one comment and derail everything
> 
> I still stand by what I said, marketing/finishes/design is opinion, but their consistent quality/speed/pricing cannot be touched by other customs, I say this despite them not being my favorite, having owned many but currently 0. On top of having decent return policy and the security that you won't get ripped off eg taking your money and ghosting.
> 
> one of many reasons boutique builders are on the decline



If you want to purchase a custom instrument then surely the fucking finish and design are key factors? 

Kiesel couldn't build what I wanted and with the appointments I wanted. So they were not an option.

Prior to my daemoness I bought a Kxk, why? Because quality aside I really like the design.

After the Daemoness? A Strandberg M2M. Why? The design.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Yeah, I don't know about an overall decline as far as boutique builders as a whole. Like usual there are some builders who seem do better than others at any given time, but I haven't seen a major implosion recently, at least anything outside the usual. 

I know covid has done a number on the industry as a whole, but that sort of falls outside regular competition/trends changing.


----------



## jco5055

In regards to Kiesel...I won't personally ever buy a new one unless Jeff truly is proven to change his ways/the customer service also, but I also won't buy a Daemoness if Dylan's methods/work/timetables also doesn't change. But I don't think many would argue that yes, Kiesel is probably untouched if you assign quality, time to build, and $$ from 1 to 10 and average them out to an "overall" number. But I don't think anyone also tries to argue that the quality is going to be a 10/the car equivalent of a Lamborghini or Ferrari, and that's fine, it's not what Kiesel does/their niche. Now I can't personally attest to Daemoness's quality, but it seems like the wants of the user who got suggested Kiesel definitely wants that truely top-tier quality if he's down to spend $5k on a build, and Kiesel isn't going to bring that.


----------



## Blytheryn

mbardu said:


> The headphones comparison is a pretty poor one. If anything the mass-market marketing-reliant brands of the guitar world would be your LTDs and ESPs with all their ads and massive endorsements. Maybe your "Dr Dre" comparison would fit something like the various image-driven resurgences of BC Rich and Deans at some point. Those that had no clear direction, were just different builds from random import factories...? Ibanez would be your Sony I guess (everything from crap to great at inflated price). Maybe Kiesel your Beyerdynamics or things of the sort and Daemoness (if they did deliver) would ... I don't know maybe be the Ultrasone or Abyss...?
> 
> Constant price/quality/speed for something to your specs is definitely what sets Kiesel apart, sorry to burst anyone's bubble.
> Their marketing is pretty measly all things considered.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely agreed here, he would clearly fall in the custom end of the range.
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes it's a definitely different customer with a good reason (a custom guitar shape with unusual specs, specific artistic vision in the case of Daemoness).
> Sometimes it's also just being stubborn, elitist or narrow-minded, or buying into the SSO prejudice against them like we again see above .
> If all you want is a matte black superstrat in standard scale, you lose nothing by _trying _a Kiesel..except a logo on the headstock and the satisfaction or bragging rights of those additional 3k$ or 5 years. And that's a _very_ limited example on purpose as we know they have all sorts of stuff nowadays (doublenecks and 8 string multiscale headless in ridiculous finishes etc...).
> 
> 
> 
> For something unique, it makes sense for someone who doesn't mind the wait.
> Can't help but think you'd definitely like Kiesel though, especially with your use of the word _rad _ .



I guess my problem with Kiesels is that they feel very phoned in, and for some reason don’t feel insanely metal, like say a Jackson, ESP, Dean, or BC Rich are. The shapes lack real “violence”. I don’t want a guitar that looks like it’s meant for the distinguished djent lord who steps on stage with some sneakers and a V neck. I want something that would look at home at a Mayhem, Power Trip, or Cannibal Corpse show. I’m not knocking the people who go for that generic Kiesel look. It’s just not for me.


----------



## xzacx

mbardu said:


> Sometimes it's a definitely different customer with a good reason (a custom guitar shape with unusual specs, specific artistic vision in the case of Daemoness).
> Sometimes it's also just being stubborn, elitist or narrow-minded, or buying into the SSO prejudice against them like we again see above .
> If all you want is a matte black superstrat in standard scale, you lose nothing by _trying _a Kiesel..except a logo on the headstock and the satisfaction or bragging rights of those additional 3k$ or 5 years. And that's a _very_ limited example on purpose as we know they have all sorts of stuff nowadays (doublenecks and 8 string multiscale headless in ridiculous finishes etc...).



Let's not act like the only reasons not to like a Kiesel are because you want something more custom than what they offer, or because you're buying into perceived (as if there aren't legitimate reasons) SSO prejudice. There's also people that just don't like the designs, want something higher end, or want something that's been played by someone that's influential to them—it's not like there's a long list of classic albums recorded on Kiesels (nor Daemoness for that matter, though I love 1349). The point was just that if you’re the type of person willing to pay that money and wait that kind of time, the value and speed Kiesel offers probably isn’t a top priority.


----------



## mlp187

So I think I read that some people have received their guitars recently.
Do we know if they were an additional 30 months past their original estimated lead time?
Is Dylan still not emailing people?

Jesus this thread is fucking train wreck. I'm eagerly awaiting the 2500 word posts about why kiesel is good/bad in this thread.


----------



## bzhang9

xzacx said:


> Let's not act like the only reasons not to like a Kiesel are because you want something more custom than what they offer, or because you're buying into perceived (as if there aren't legitimate reasons) SSO prejudice. There's also people that just don't like the designs, want something higher end, or want something that's been played by someone that's influential to them—it's not like there's a long list of classic albums recorded on Kiesels (nor Daemoness for that matter, though I love 1349). The point was just that if you’re the type of person willing to pay that money and wait that kind of time, the value and speed Kiesel offers probably isn’t a top priority.



there's also people who want more basic stuff that Kiesel or another company can build for a fraction of the cost or wait time, so they will do that because there are those options now

not sure how people can say 5+ years wait time is a non issue. A guitar is worthless if its not in your possession. 

If you order a ferrari you would't mind waiting 5+ years to drive it? If you buy a nice house you'd be ok waiting 5+ years before moving in?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

bzhang9 said:


> there's also people who want more basic stuff that Kiesel or another company can build for a fraction of the cost or wait time, so they will do that because there are those options now
> 
> not sure how people can say 5+ years wait time is a non issue. A guitar is worthless if its not in your possession.
> 
> If you order a ferrari you would't mind waiting 5+ years to drive it? If you buy a nice house you'd be ok waiting 5+ years before moving in?



It's not like wait times that long are a new development, especially for very small, highly esoteric operations. 

I'm sure as heck not waiting that kind of time, but I see how it becomes a non-issue for very particular builds with a bespoke theme. 

Your examples are bad. Ferraris are know for having a fairly closed off availability that can stretch into years. The same can be said for spec built houses. To some people, special things are worth waiting for.


----------



## xzacx

bzhang9 said:


> If you order a ferrari you would't mind waiting 5+ years to drive it? If you buy a nice house you'd be ok waiting 5+ years before moving in?



The waitlist for a one-off custom Ferrari build is literally 4-5 years...IF you're someone they deem special enough they even let do it, and they only make a couple a year. Sure, those people could go down to the Kia dealer and spec a Stinger that they'd have in a couple months, but guess what? Those are two different customers.


----------



## c7spheres

Gee whiz, after reading all this suddenly my Ed Roman experiences don't seem so bad. He use to do literally anything you wanted and even though he often took twice as long as quoted it was even close to that long. Maybe a yeara and half or two at most. I will now curl into a ball as you hurl tomatoes at me.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Quick chime in on the Kiesel thing here: I played a used one that showed up at a GC I would frequent about a year or so ago. The look was not really my thing and the overall feel and sound I'd say was OK but not exactly what I go for usually. Llike others have said, its not really as metal as it could be. I like 'how it lacks violence' to sum it all up why'd the brand would be a pass for someone that sticks more towards Jackson and Ibanez. Needless to say, I passed on that particular Kiesel and picked up a few used shreddy MIJs by Jackson and Ibanez that were laying around music shops that year.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> Let's not act like the only reasons not to like a Kiesel are because you want something more custom than what they offer, or because you're buying into perceived (as if there aren't legitimate reasons) SSO prejudice. There's also people that just don't like the designs, want something higher end, or want something that's been played by someone that's influential to them—it's not like there's a long list of classic albums recorded on Kiesels (nor Daemoness for that matter, though I love 1349). The point was just that if you’re the type of person willing to pay that money and wait that kind of time, the value and speed Kiesel offers probably isn’t a top priority.



Agreed with most of your points, like not liking their designs, not finding them metal enough, want the signature of a particular artist etc..
In fact I was saying the same thing earlier, if you want something realllyyyyy specific that they don't offer, then I guess by definition they don't make sense...
But the thing about "higher end" is different though. I'll take my same example as before and stand by it- if you want a basic superstrat, you don't risk anything trying Kiesel. By paying more for a guitar with the same specs, you're not going to get a measurably "better" guitar, and that's because the quality and consistency of Kiesel is among the best.

In fact the Ferrari example is a good one. It has a long wait list, sometimes you actually have to beg and endure to even be able to buy one, and they have unique looks and specs with the price tag to match. But they're far from the best finished cars around, have shit reliability with mindboggling quirks, are terrible daily drivers with poor tech etc. Most people who buy them are not really car enthusiasts, but just have the $$$, or else they are buyers who also have a more down-to-earth car as a daily too.
In the guitar world the equivalent usually when you go to custom shops or very boutique builders is you can get something really unique that will turn heads, but very often some quirks, sound and playability not guaranteed, and very often the finish is not quite there (case in point this very thread), especially with one-man operations. So it's not like everything is better (or that "higher end" you talk about) for your 5k$, and you could objectively be better served by a 1.5k$ guitar than by a 5k$ one if you value things like consistency over unique specs and boutique. More of a "to each their own" than a measurable high end vs low end.


----------



## mehegama

mlp187 said:


> So I think I read that some people have received their guitars recently.
> Do we know if they were an additional 30 months past their original estimated lead time?
> Is Dylan still not emailing people?
> 
> Jesus this thread is fucking train wreck. I'm eagerly awaiting the 2500 word posts about why kiesel is good/bad in this thread.


those were order from 5-6 years ago. It seems that the real time to get your guitar currently is 5-6 years.


----------



## possumkiller

SamSam said:


> Are boutique builders really on the decline though? Or is it just the few ss.org favourites who we believe may be in decline?
> 
> And I wouldn't say Daemoness is in decline, dylan appears to have way more orders pending than he can currently manage. 6 years or whenever I got mine that certainly wasn't the case. So overall his demand appears to be far greater than what we perceive his "peak" to have been?


I don't think it is all boutique builders. I think Daemoness may be the last one to be ruined by periphery. Now that they all have made it big with sigs from big companies with factories in Asia, I don't think the SSO fanboys can all pile in and ruin them. If you can deal with not having a crazy graphic and inlay art themed guitar, you can get a Cimmerian from Jackson for under $1k USD hard currency.


----------



## narad

For me, I start out wanting this guitar (a little lens distortion, my bad):










Frankly I don't think Kiesel would be able to do anything that would have satisfied me even on this simple spec. The Daemoness:





The only thing I could fault was that the figure in the upper horn wasn't great (the figuring near the bridge was *perfect*).

This is basically as close as you're going to get with Kiesel:





The Kiesel isn't terrible but, at the same time, I would rather pay $5k and wait 3 years and get the Daemoness that I wanted than get the above Kiesel for free, because the Kiesel ticks like 0 boxes for me.

So similarly, I feel like Kiesel takes almost 0% share of Daemoness orders. If anything, just super cool Ibanez are probably satisfying most people from ever going down the custom guitar path.


----------



## Merrekof

narad said:


> super cool Ibanez are probably satisfying most people from ever going down the custom guitar path.


This is exactly me. No Ibanez is "perfect" for me but close enough!


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> For me, I start out wanting this guitar (a little lens distortion, my bad):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly I don't think Kiesel would be able to do anything that would have satisfied me even on this simple spec. The Daemoness:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I could fault was that the figure in the upper horn wasn't great (the figuring near the bridge was *perfect*).
> 
> This is basically as close as you're going to get with Kiesel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Kiesel isn't terrible but, at the same time, I would rather pay $5k and wait 3 years and get the Daemoness that I wanted than get the above Kiesel for free, because the Kiesel ticks like 0 boxes for me.
> 
> So similarly, I feel like Kiesel takes almost 0% share of Daemoness orders. If anything, just super cool Ibanez are probably satisfying most people from ever going down the custom guitar path.


Only you ll wait 6 years and pay more than what you would have paid to Jackson/ESP/Ibanez for a simple build like this. I m pretty sure Kiesel could make you an arched top soloist style with a plain whitish quilt top, with no inlays or any other special request. In my opinion Daemoness is an option only for extravagant builds in the artistic aspect (graphics, inlays etc). For simpler stuff there are loads of other shops around that will produce stellar guitars with less time in max a year's time.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Only you ll wait 6 years and pay more than what you would have paid to Jackson/ESP/Ibanez for a simple build like this. I m pretty sure Kiesel could make you an arched top soloist style with a plain whitish quilt top, with no inlays or any other special request. In my opinion Daemoness is an option only for extravagant builds in the artistic aspect (graphics, inlays etc). For simpler stuff there are loads of other shops around that will produce stellar guitars with less time in max a year's time.



What are you talking about man -- are you suggesting Kiesel is going to build me a one-off soloist style guitar? The crescent seems to be the closest, and that's definitely not doing it for me. They even did a trans-white one:





It's not bad, but I don't like that carve and it looks too asymmetrical to me here.

And surprise, surprise, my third Daemoness is also going to be a simpler spec, but one I still don't trust any of the other options to pull off. So I disagree -- my third build will probably be a rhoads style V and I want someone who's going to nail it, and Kiesel's not going to nail it. Carillion may be able to similarly nail it exactly. Padalka has the skill to nail it and fast turn-around and good prices, but he won't do that shape. Jackson CS is over-priced IMO, and slow, and unreliable, so not sure what I would really gain going with them. Also unclear they would even do the neck spec the way I want it.

So I mean, if you like Kiesel, it's okay. But it's weird this forced argument like Kiesel offers something for everyone. They clearly can't do what I want with my previous Daemoness builds, or my future one(s).


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> What are you talking about man -- are you suggesting Kiesel is going to build me a one-off soloist style guitar? The crescent seems to be the closest, and that's definitely not doing it for me. They even did a trans-white one:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not bad, but I don't like that carve and it looks too asymmetrical to me here.
> 
> And surprise, surprise, my third Daemoness is also going to be a simpler spec, but one I still don't trust any of the other options to pull off. So I disagree -- my third build will probably be a rhoads style V and I want someone who's going to nail it, and Kiesel's not going to nail it. Carillion may be able to similarly nail it exactly. Padalka has the skill to nail it and fast turn-around and good prices, but he won't do that shape. Jackson CS is over-priced IMO, and slow, and unreliable, so not sure what I would really gain going with them. Also unclear they would even do the neck spec the way I want it.
> 
> So I mean, if you like Kiesel, it's okay. But it's weird this forced argument like Kiesel offers something for everyone. They clearly can't do what I want with my previous Daemoness builds, or my future one(s).



I have never owned/played a Kiesel and I have 0 experience with them, apart from the obnoxious videos of Jeff. I saw in their dated website and say do have carved supersetrat bodies (the 70th aniv for example). In any case my point is this is a simpler build that you could get from the well known companies for much less, or even other shops. You can get an Horizon (the original carved top super strat) an RGA or an arched soloist with these specs. I don't think Dylan will do something much better in a build like this. Anyways, seems you can deal with the wait time and that s good for your case then.


----------



## bzhang9

narad said:


> So I mean, if you like Kiesel, it's okay. But it's weird this forced argument like Kiesel offers something for everyone. They clearly can't do what I want with my previous Daemoness builds, or my future one(s).



Literally no one has ever said "Kiesel offers something for everyone"

You built an Ibanez RGD/RGA with a slightly figured top... if any large operation offered that build option they'd have a lawsuit


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I have never owned/played a Kiesel and I have 0 experience with them, apart from the obnoxious videos of Jeff. I saw in their dated website and say do have carved supersetrat bodies (the 70th aniv for example). In any case my point is this is a simpler build that you could get from the well known companies for much less, or even other shops. You can get an Horizon (the original carved top super strat) an RGA or an arched soloist with these specs. I don't think Dylan will do something much better in a build like this. Anyways, seems you can deal with the wait time and that s good for your case then.



I mean, I think I'm up to date with all the shapes Kiesel offers. The 70ths aren't a bad shape but they're not carved tops. Regarding the Horizon, to do this spec would cost more than the Daemoness, and it's not particularly close to the RGA. Regarding the RGA, you can't custom order it to those specs, or I would have. So I mean, I don't see anyone else really catering to it as well as Dylan did.



bzhang9 said:


> You built an Ibanez RGD/RGA with a slightly figured top... if any large operation offered that build option they'd have a lawsuit



Of course that's not true, given that the shapes aren't protected. A Jackson juggernaut is probably closer to the RGA than the Cimmerian. Is that a large enough operation? And Dylan didn't do anything "special" for that shape -- it's just the classic carve-top Cimmerian he had done on another guitar previously.



bzhang9 said:


> Personally would have just got a used 2127Z for 800 bucks and refinished it for a few hundo



That's fine but I was looking for a carve maple top, with a different scale length, with binding, with a mahogany body. So... basically an entirely different guitar.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I mean, I think I'm up to date with all the shapes Kiesel offers. The 70ths aren't a bad shape but they're not carved tops. Regarding the Horizon, to do this spec would cost more than the Daemoness, and it's not particularly close to the RGA. Regarding the RGA, you can't custom order it to those specs, or I would have. So I mean, I don't see anyone else really catering to it as well as Dylan did.


an Horizon like that would be between $5-6k. Which is similar to what you ll pay to Dylan (maybe a bit more for the ESP) but you ll have it in max 15 months. And it will be flawless. I m a huge Horizon geek and have many custom shop ones. The Jackson soloist arched is super close and yes we hear inconsistencies, but that happens to many big ones as well like Gibson. Regarding being slow, come on... Dylan takes 6 years for these. Jackson I hear is about 2. Skervesen have a beautiful carved raptor top as well. So there are ways. I would have taken an RGA and given it to a good local guy for refinishing and that would be the best solution in your case in much less time and with much less money.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> an Horizon like that would be between $5-6k. Which is similar to what you ll pay to Dylan (maybe a bit more for the ESP) but you ll have it in max 15 months. And it will be flawless. I m a huge Horizon geek and have many custom shop ones. The Jackson soloist arched is super close and yes we hear inconsistencies, but that happens to many big ones as well like Gibson. Regarding being slow, come on... Dylan takes 6 years for these. Jackson I hear is about 2. Skervesen have a beautiful carved raptor top as well. So there are ways. I would have taken an RGA and given it to a good local guy for refinishing and that would be the best solution in your case in much less time and with much less money.



But it would have been a Horizon, which is a quite different shape. It would have had terrible resale. It wouldn't have had my ideal neck carve. It wouldn't have had the bridge I wanted.

Raptors have IMO one of the worst headstocks to ever be put on a guitar. And the shape has a more defined carve, similar to the Crescent.

An RGA 7-string would have had to have used a 427z as a base, which at the time was about $2500-3k limited import. And that's a flame top with a rosewood board. So the luthier would have to take the entire top off, and carve an entirely different one out of quilt maple. He would have had to source an especially light quilt maple top (you need to do this to nail trans white) and he would have had to learn how to do the finish. The late Phil @ Spectrum tried a few different things until it matched (or improved upon) the reference photo, but I've seen plenty of good shops botch it up. Then he'd have to take off the rosewood board and replace it with ebony, and then reinstall all the frets (also the frets would have to be stainless). And after all that, and probably $4-5k into the project, I'd have a used Ibanez prestige.

Given what I wanted, it's really easy to make the case for taking the job to Dylan, and I think that's quite evident to most of the readers of this thread.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> But it would have been a Horizon, which is a quite different shape. It would have had terrible resale. It wouldn't have had my ideal neck carve. It wouldn't have had the bridge I wanted.
> 
> Raptors have IMO one of the worst headstocks to ever be put on a guitar. And the shape has a more defined carve, similar to the Crescent.
> 
> An RGA 7-string would have had to have used a 427z as a base, which at the time was about $2500-3k limited import. And that's a flame top with a rosewood board. So the luthier would have to take the entire top off, and carve an entirely different one out of quilt maple. He would have had to source an especially light quilt maple top (you need to do this to nail trans white) and he would have had to learn how to do the finish. The late Phil @ Spectrum tried a few different things until it matched (or improved upon) the reference photo, but I've seen plenty of good shops botch it up. Then he'd have to take off the rosewood board and replace it with ebony, and then reinstall all the frets (also the frets would have to be stainless). And after all that, and probably $4-5k into the project, I'd have a used Ibanez prestige.
> 
> Given what I wanted, it's really easy to make the case for taking the job to Dylan, and I think that's quite evident to most of the readers of this thread.


Fair enough. The raptor headstock is indeed atrocious but they have loads of other offers very close to ESP, Jackson and ibanez to choose so that would not be the issue. Anyways you have something extremely specific in your mind and Dylan offered to do it so since you are ok with the wait time you got what you were looking. 

As this post seem to have gone off topic a bit, the issue is the communication and times. Have anyone managed to be in contact with some info on these? I keep being ignored.


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> Frankly I don't think Kiesel would be able to do anything that would have satisfied me even on this simple spec. The Daemoness:



Similar to Narad, no company bar perhaps ESP would do a build similar to the one I have chalked down. I gave Dylan some simple basic specs, and one word term: F-117 Nighthawk. What that evolved into was a single hum Ironbird in matte black with a seriously specific inlay using techniques I have yet to see any other luthier or company attempt or use. I went with Daemoness because no other brand would deliver what I want out of a seriously custom instrument. If I just wanted a black superstrat or a single hum V sure, that leaves me with what, Jackson or ESP? At the time the BC Rich custom shop did not exist and I can guarantee you that they wouldn’t be able to touch on the theme I’ve selected in a way that Dylan has demonstrated countless times that he can achieve. If I wanted a generic un unique instrument I’d go with anyone else.


I feel that this is something that most people ordering a Daemoness already realize, which is why they go with Dylan instead of anything else. Most Daemoness owners already have numerous customs from KxK, Padalka, what have you. There’s an itch that just isn’t scratched by those guys. Daemoness can do that.

So if that’s for you, great. If it’s not, then sure go with Ran or Waghorn or whatever that brand is with the wolf paw inlay.

Furthermore, the website says that the wait times can be very long and if I recall correctly that it’s just an estimate. You’re allowed to completely change almost any aspect of your build until it commences. Body shape, fret material, top wood, whatever. So changing preferences are a non issue.


----------



## Viginez

Blytheryn said:


> Body shape, fret material, top wood, whatever. So changing preferences are a non issue.


i think this is a flawed business model.
when people are constantly changing their specs, he will simply put you on a longer wait list and pursue simpler builds or ones that didn't change from the beginning.
the more people change their specs, the longer it takes.


----------



## narad

Viginez said:


> i think this is a flawed business model.
> when people are constantly changing their specs, he will simply put you on a longer wait list and pursue simpler builds or ones that didn't change from the beginning.
> the more people change their specs, the longer it takes.



What reason do you have to think this? The specs don't really matter up until you're in the next batch -- at that point it's time to get your shit together. Basically until you get the email that you're up, Dylan doesn't even -know- if your specs have changed, which completely goes against what you're saying.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Furthermore, the website says that the wait times can be very long and if I recall correctly that it’s just an estimate.


But again the site does not say what you say. It says: “As a guide, the estimated queue time is 30 months for a build to commence, but please be aware that this may vary depending on the complexity of our upcoming builds“. 

That s super misleading when the real time is more than double that. the correct number as a guide is 60. But had he put that he d get a handful of orders so here we are again..


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> But again the site does not say what you say. It says: “As a guide, the estimated queue time is 30 months for a build to commence, but please be aware that this may vary depending on the complexity of our upcoming builds“.
> 
> That s super misleading when the real time is more than double that. the correct number as a guide is 60. But had he put that he d get a handful of orders so here we are again..



Is the real time more than double that? The build itself can be 12-18 months on its own, + 30 for the wait, can easily be 4 years all said and done and not even deviate from the estimated times. And I've not heard of anyone waiting 60 (2x 30) for their build to start.

I don't doubt the times are longer than the estimated queue time, but I don't see any evidence that they are significantly longer.

For reference my last build went in Nov 2016 IIRC, and I received an email saying I was in next batch / prepare final spec in Jan 2019. I may have made a non-verbal call for another deposit prior to the date of my paypal that might space things out a little differently, but that's not crazy. I postponed at the time into the next batch and haven't received another update.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> But again the site does not say what you say. It says: “As a guide, the estimated queue time is 30 months for a build to commence, but please be aware that this may vary depending on the complexity of our upcoming builds“.
> 
> That s super misleading when the real time is more than double that. the correct number as a guide is 60. But had he put that he d get a handful of orders so here we are again..



If I knew you were going to get this into it I’d have attempted to look up the exact verbiage myself. It must have been on the old website. Don’t mind me.


----------



## Viginez

narad said:


> What reason do you have to think this? The specs don't really matter up until you're in the next batch -- at that point it's time to get your shit together. Basically until you get the email that you're up, Dylan doesn't even -know- if your specs have changed, which completely goes against what you're saying.


so why is this something special, if it doesn't even matter?


----------



## narad

Viginez said:


> so why is this something special, if it doesn't even matter?



It's not something special? Did you misread something? Someone said the wait time was so long that changing tastes would be a problem. Blytheryn was pointing out that you're not locked into your specs throughout the duration of the wait, so it's actually not a problem. Then you seemed to imply that letting people constantly changing their specs is also somehow a problem of some kind that effects the build queue -- in reality it has 0 effect on anything. 

I change my specs in my mind a hundred times during the wait period -- I told Dylan about 0 of them, and updated my spec only when my build was up.


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> Only you ll wait 6 years and pay more than what you would have paid to Jackson/ESP/Ibanez for a simple build like this. I m pretty sure Kiesel could make you an arched top soloist style with a plain whitish quilt top, with no inlays or any other special request. In my opinion Daemoness is an option only for extravagant builds in the artistic aspect (graphics, inlays etc). For simpler stuff there are loads of other shops around that will produce stellar guitars with less time in max a year's time.




ESP and Jackson will both cost you more than a Daemoness built to those specs. Ibanez won't build you anything.


----------



## SamSam

possumkiller said:


> I don't think it is all boutique builders. I think Daemoness may be the last one to be ruined by periphery. Now that they all have made it big with sigs from big companies with factories in Asia, I don't think the SSO fanboys can all pile in and ruin them. If you can deal with not having a crazy graphic and inlay art themed guitar, you can get a Cimmerian from Jackson for under $1k USD hard currency.



It says a lot about the Cimmerian design when you can clearly see that his sig model is based off custom.

It's a fantastically designed super strat, with the headstock reversed probably my favourite. Second best being the RGD before it got the vomit tops.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> For me, I start out wanting this guitar (a little lens distortion, my bad):
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Frankly I don't think Kiesel would be able to do anything that would have satisfied me even on this simple spec. The Daemoness:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The only thing I could fault was that the figure in the upper horn wasn't great (the figuring near the bridge was *perfect*).
> 
> This is basically as close as you're going to get with Kiesel:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Kiesel isn't terrible but, at the same time, I would rather pay $5k and wait 3 years and get the Daemoness that I wanted than get the above Kiesel for free, because the Kiesel ticks like 0 boxes for me.
> 
> So similarly, I feel like Kiesel takes almost 0% share of Daemoness orders. If anything, just super cool Ibanez are probably satisfying most people from ever going down the custom guitar path.



I mean I don't think anyone disagrees with you here.
If you absolutely prefer a shape that only Dylan does, or have a special artistic vision with him, that's just fine if you're willing to plunk that $$$ and wait 6 years.
Noone said Jackson, ESP, or Kiesel were going to offer _exactly _the same thing (although ESP probably would).

The argument was really only that it was personal taste and that getting a Daemoness for more $$$, besides giving you something unique (that you may value over other things) is not actually a guarantee you'd get something actually "better" (the current post being a good example of that).
I for one would totally prefer some of the Kiesel shapes (you didn't pick the best examples here, but I'm digging the Crescent for example...), or for that matter a Jackson AT over something like the Cimmerian, but I totally get that someone may feel the other way around. Those are all very different guitars anyway.


----------



## spudmunkey

I think the K series would be another shape to consider.



They can also do trans white on quilt.




And burled maple, too.


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> ESP and Jackson will both cost you more than a Daemoness built to those specs. Ibanez won't build you anything.


it will cost marginally more. Not something to be a deal breaker. And in the case of ESP at least, you ll get a flawless guitar in 12 months. So in something simpler it s the way to go. In my case i originally wanted a graphic on the body and some fancy inlays but after 2.5 years passing i ll go to something much simpler, which is a turn of a bit unfortunately.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Is the real time more than double that? The build itself can be 12-18 months on its own, + 30 for the wait, can easily be 4 years all said and done and not even deviate from the estimated times. And I've not heard of anyone waiting 60 (2x 30) for their build to start.
> 
> I don't doubt the times are longer than the estimated queue time, but I don't see any evidence that they are significantly longer.
> 
> For reference my last build went in Nov 2016 IIRC, and I received an email saying I was in next batch / prepare final spec in Jan 2019. I may have made a non-verbal call for another deposit prior to the date of my paypal that might space things out a little differently, but that's not crazy. I postponed at the time into the next batch and haven't received another update.



Both the OP and the guy that got one of the Brown Cimmerians that were posted recently, waited in total 65 months. This is well documented. Also Dylan now works on orders that were placed late 2015- early 2016, so you can do the math. There is no doubt about the waiting times, it is more than 5 years to get your guitar.

For the last time this what Barnes sent me when I put the deposit : "please note that our current wait time is approximately 30 months for a build to commence. The build itself is then expected to take 4–8 months". That is 38 months as a guide. I ll give him an extra 6 months because i m in good faith.. that s max 44 months. Where did you see that the build takes 12-18 months? Which custom shop takes so much time to build the guitar,out of the queue time? Especially when they themselves say the build time is 4-8 months??

So please, the situation is inexcusable. I m just quoting their own numbers. We have multiple people in this post and the official one too that ve been already waiting for more than 45 months with 0 info/communication from Dylan where they are with their builds.


----------



## c7spheres

48 months seems reasonable since they put the 30 months to commence on their webiste. 6-18 months is pretty common/standard for a custom build depending on the project. I could see with some of the complexity of the inlays and art that these could take significantly longer. If it's a no art/basic inlay guitar then it seems reasonable to tell a customer 36-48 months since it's 30 months before they even start the project. 
- The problem is in the initial contract. If you're told you're getting something different than what you recieve albiet the product, price, or time frame.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> I think the K series would be another shape to consider.
> View attachment 82839
> 
> 
> They can also do trans white on quilt.
> 
> View attachment 82840
> 
> 
> And burled maple, too.
> View attachment 82841



Kiesel doesn't do Floyds anymore. Narad (and many more) wants a locking trem. 

How are we still going with this?


----------



## mehegama

c7spheres said:


> 48 months seems reasonable since they put the 30 months to commence on their webiste. 6-18 months is pretty common/standard for a custom build depending on the project. I could see with some of the complexity of the inlays and art that these could take significantly longer. If it's a no art/basic inlay guitar then it seems reasonable to tell a customer 36-48 months since it's 30 months before they even start the project.
> - The problem is in the initial contract. If you're told you're getting something different than what you recieve albiet the product, price, or time frame.


18 months for a build???? what are they building to take so long? Then why did they quoted me 4-8 months? That s what i m saying, I need transparency and some honest estimations


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kiesel doesn't do Floyds anymore. Narad (and many more) wants a locking trem.
> 
> How are we still going with this?



Agreed yeah. Kiesel isn't the answer to everything either, that was certainly not the point.


----------



## c7spheres

mehegama said:


> 18 months for a build???? what are they building to take so long? Then why did they quoted me 4-8 months? That s what i m saying, I need transparency and some honest estimations



Sorry, I didn't mean to get the blood boiling. 
- I was throwing out a generic number. Nothing specific about Daemoness. They only say 30 months to commence the build. The individual project will vary greatly depending what it actually is I'd assume. 
- I only said 6-18 months because in my experince that's the normal length of time it's taken me to get my customs. Sorry for any confusion.


----------



## mehegama

c7spheres said:


> Sorry, I didn't mean to get the blood boiling.
> - I was throwing out a generic number. Nothing specific about Daemoness. They only say 30 months to commence the build. The individual project will vary greatly depending what it actually is I'd assume.
> - I only said 6-18 months because in my experince that's the normal length of time it's taken me to get my customs. Sorry for any confusion.


You don't need to say sorry, I was not meant to come as angry or anything. in the post above i was just quoting the numbers they gave me when I put the deposit


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Both the OP and the guy that got one of the Brown Cimmerians that were posted recently, waited in total 65 months. This is well documented. Also Dylan now works on orders that were placed late 2015- early 2016, so you can do the math. There is no doubt about the waiting times, it is more than 5 years to get your guitar.
> 
> For the last time this what Barnes sent me when I put the deposit : "please note that our current wait time is approximately 30 months for a build to commence. The build itself is then expected to take 4–8 months". That is 38 months as a guide. I ll give him an extra 6 months because i m in good faith.. that s max 44 months. Where did you see that the build takes 12-18 months? Which custom shop takes so much time to build the guitar,out of the queue time? Especially when they themselves say the build time is 4-8 months??
> 
> So please, the situation is inexcusable. I m just quoting their own numbers. We have multiple people in this post and the official one too that ve been already waiting for more than 45 months with 0 info/communication from Dylan where they are with their builds.



You know the 30 month estimate for a build to commence was probably an accurate statement at the time you put in your order? It was accurate for me on the guitar I received in the 2014/2015.

Regarding who takes more than 8 months to build a guitar ... pretty much anyone building solo? It's not uncommon just for the finish work to take more than half that. I could probably name more custom builds that I have had take longer than that than I have fingers on my hands. And we also know that Dylan will basically keep a finished guitar around the shop for a long time prior to ship. I basically had my "your guitar is done" phone call maybe 4 months before actually getting my guitar, since that didn't include the setup time and letting the guitar acclimate to being a guitar. These things I don't mind -- you can't magically make natural processes take less time.

I get that you want the estimates to be accurate, but they are -estimates-. It'd be nice if life always worked that way. If a builder tells me it'll be about 30 months right now for an order to commence, I don't think, "mark my calendar for the day I should ask for progress pics", I think, "ah, he's one of those guys that takes a long time, better be in it for the long haul". And that's just an expectation built up from knowing the industry. If he tells me 30 months to commence, and the idea of 40 months to commence is outrageous, don't put in that order. Honestly. Especially if it's a solo builder.

It'd be nice if you could get your money back. But really I think your needs/mentality here seem like a real mismatch for Daemoness. You seem to be hung up on the speed of a build in ways that I wouldn't recommend you ever order a guitar from a solo luthier. Stick to teams. For people who care more about the guitar matching what's in their heads, Dylan offers something unique. That uniqueness doesn't have to be a goblin getting it's head bashed in by a ball-and-chain, but even in my case a set of features and quality that clearly no other shop offers. I know about all the other shops, and their turnaround time, and their quality, and their costs, and Daemoness was still the best fit for me.


----------



## Samark

narad said:


> For me, I start out wanting this guitar (a little lens distortion, my bad):



I have nothing to add to this thread but HNGGGGGGGGGGG


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Kiesel doesn't do Floyds anymore. Narad (and many more) wants a locking trem.
> 
> How are we still going with this?



You mean "doesn't do Floyds _on sevens_", right?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> You mean "doesn't do Floyds _on sevens_", right?



Count the number of strings on @narad's guitar.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Count the number of strings on @narad's guitar.



I know, i was just curious whether your statement was general or not because I thought they still had Floyds on many 6s.

Enough though, im not going to derail the discussion anymore. Sorry guys


----------



## Jonathan20022

This is starting to play out like a Voldermort scenario.

Say the name, and your thread will grow a few more pages by the time you log back in


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> You know the 30 month estimate for a build to commence was probably an accurate statement at the time you put in your order? It was accurate for me on the guitar I received in the 2014/2015.
> 
> Regarding who takes more than 8 months to build a guitar ... pretty much anyone building solo? It's not uncommon just for the finish work to take more than half that. I could probably name more custom builds that I have had take longer than that than I have fingers on my hands. And we also know that Dylan will basically keep a finished guitar around the shop for a long time prior to ship. I basically had my "your guitar is done" phone call maybe 4 months before actually getting my guitar, since that didn't include the setup time and letting the guitar acclimate to being a guitar. These things I don't mind -- you can't magically make natural processes take less time.
> 
> I get that you want the estimates to be accurate, but they are -estimates-. It'd be nice if life always worked that way. If a builder tells me it'll be about 30 months right now for an order to commence, I don't think, "mark my calendar for the day I should ask for progress pics", I think, "ah, he's one of those guys that takes a long time, better be in it for the long haul". And that's just an expectation built up from knowing the industry. If he tells me 30 months to commence, and the idea of 40 months to commence is outrageous, don't put in that order. Honestly. Especially if it's a solo builder.
> 
> It'd be nice if you could get your money back. But really I think your needs/mentality here seem like a real mismatch for Daemoness. You seem to be hung up on the speed of a build in ways that I wouldn't recommend you ever order a guitar from a solo luthier. Stick to teams. For people who care more about the guitar matching what's in their heads, Dylan offers something unique. That uniqueness doesn't have to be a goblin getting it's head bashed in by a ball-and-chain, but even in my case a set of features and quality that clearly no other shop offers. I know about all the other shops, and their turnaround time, and their quality, and their costs, and Daemoness was still the best fit for me.


I quoted their numbers, not my estimation. I m sorry but your mindset on this situation is totally the opposite of mine and it is fair enough, but I will not buy any of these excuses. My mentality was ready for the numbers I was quoted, not an extra 2 years on top of that and trust me had he put the correct numbers the vast majority of the people, including myself, Would not have put money in.

I m glad you are happy with his work and timelines but my guess is the majority of people
are not and I would not want to see a talented luthier fail just because he has 0 knowledge on how to run a business, of which the majority of it is, to be honest, just applying common sense like reply to an email.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I quoted their numbers, not my estimation. I m sorry but your mindset on this situation is totally the opposite of mine and it is fair enough, but I will not buy any of these excuses. My mentality was ready for the numbers I was quoted, not an extra 2 years on top of that and trust me had he put the correct numbers the vast majority of the people, including myself, Would not have put money in.
> 
> I m glad you are happy with his work and timelines but my guess is the majority of people
> are not and I would not want to see a talented luthier fail just because he has 0 knowledge on how to run a business, of which the majority of it is, to be honest, just applying common sense like reply to an email.



I know you're quoting their numbers, but the important part is that their numbers are estimates (in their own words "approximately"). And the numbers they quoted previously were correct at the time. They're not correct now, but Dylan's also not taking more orders now (unless you believe he ignores your email but doesn't ignore the emails of people trying to place deposits), so that's kind of a moot point.

As stated, "*As a guide*, the estimated queue time is 30 months for a build to commence, *but please be aware that this may vary* depending on the complexity of our upcoming builds."


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I know you're quoting their numbers, but the important part is that their numbers are estimates (in their own words "approximately"). And the numbers they quoted previously were correct at the time. They're not correct now, but Dylan's also not taking more orders now (unless you believe he ignores your email but doesn't ignore the emails of people trying to place deposits), so that's kind of a moot point.
> 
> As stated, "*As a guide*, the estimated queue time is 30 months for a build to commence, *but please be aware that this may vary* depending on the complexity of our upcoming builds."


Yes, the issue is what "a guide means". If you need to add an extra 2.5 years on top of the 38 months (30+ max 8 quoted) then that s not a guide anymore. And as I ve stated before, in my opinion it s not gonna fly legally too. Let's agree to disagree on this matter and all good!

Now, as this post has been dragging for months now, the important thing is for Dylan to finally address the issue. I need to know the real timelines by him, so we stop this unnecessary speculation here, that only makes things worse. Someone needs to finally get in touch with him so we know what is happening


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Yes, the issue is what "a guide means". If you need to add an extra 2.5 years on top of the 38 months (30+ max 8 quoted) then that s not a guide anymore. And as I ve stated before, in my opinion it s not gonna fly legally too.



I think "As a guide" means "Historically this has been the case, but you can't hold us to this, especially legally."


----------



## SamSam

"As a guide" you can generally expect any small scale custom shop build to be delayed.

My KxK took over a year longer than anticipated (cannot recall how long)

My Daemoness was actually more or less on schedule

My strandberg took a few years (I was one of the first 50 or so to get one) - I don't even think he quoted a wait time

My Wirebird is currently behind schedule, but again, I expected it going in. It's pretty standard by my experience.

It's not for everyone. Then again neither are Kiesels. Go figure.


----------



## bifftannen

mehegama said:


> Yes, the issue is what "a guide means". If you need to add an extra 2.5 years on top of the 38 months (30+ max 8 quoted) then that s not a guide anymore. And as I ve stated before, in my opinion it s not gonna fly legally too. Let's agree to disagree on this matter and all good!
> 
> Now, as this post has been dragging for months now, the important thing is for Dylan to finally address the issue. I need to know the real timelines by him, so we stop this unnecessary speculation here, that only makes things worse. Someone needs to finally get in touch with him so we know what is happening


​
I support you on this one.

Here’s a quote from our original agreement; “with my current workload, a guitar ordered today would be ready in roughly 24-27 months time. I have an apprentice now, who over the next few years will be helping me and this will alleviate the waiting period to some degree, but I cannot say by how much at this point. I know this is a long time, but one of the ways I will be developing the business in the next year will be getting more resources to bring wait times down”. This was in 2015 and if I hadn’t lost confidence in the build and cancelled, it would have been at least 48 months (I now think it would have been closer to 60+).

Yes, Dylan is an artist and yes, what he does takes time but even at the stated timeline he’s already taking twice as long as many custom builders. The vast majority of this time is just making the customer wait because he’s taken on too many orders and is in over his head. We also handed over a considerable wad of our hard-earned cash to lay down a deposit which is immediately written off as soon as it’s sent, so it’s not unreasonable to expect that the original agreement will be adhered to that the wait time is going to be X and is going to cost Y. What we’re asking for is basic, basic stuff; just do what you say you’re going to do. It’s fundamental adulting.

Dylan did use the word “roughly” and yes, I was willing to afford a little leeway but certainly not double (or more) or the stated wait time. 27 months versus 48 months is not “roughly”, it’s not a “guide”, it’s not “ballpark” – not even close, not by damn sight.

As for increasing the price; it was an extremely fishy move considering it breaches the original agreement whilst also locking us into it by advising that the deposit is non-refundable so we feel we have to stick with it or lose that £5-600. So I also support you when you say there is no way in hell would that hold up in a legal proceeding.

All of this is not fair on us, the customers, no matter how you slice it or whatever excuses people try to make for him.


----------



## possumkiller

I would honestly rather him not waste precious building time by getting online and trying to give estimates (that will not be accurate) to everyone on the waiting list. 

Usually when builders that are far behind schedule come online to get sympathy or "clear things up", it's a sign that things are going to get much worse.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I think "As a guide" means "Historically this has been the case, but you can't hold us to this, especially legally."


I think a judge would interpret this differently. what if he comes and say the real estimate is 20 years? I think @bifftannen is describing the situation pretty well. It s not my issue that he took way more orders than he can handle.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I think a judge would interpret this differently. what if he comes and say the real estimate is 20 years? I think @bifftannen is describing the situation pretty well. It s not my issue that he took way more orders than he can handle.



Judges usually look for some legally binding contractual obligation. There's not one here. Like literally, he has not agreed to deliver you a guitar in three years, or four years, or five years, and if he is still delivering guitars and showing progress on his workload, I don't know why a judge would rule in your favor (especially given that his apprentice and business partner quit and covid happened, things that were not built in to the estimates).

I mean, by all means I hope you and many others find some way to get your deposits back and drop out of the queue -- it's only going to help me out. But I think it's somewhat of a fantasy. Not sure where you are but if you're in the UK maybe you can 
manage it, but it's like definitely not going to be worth your time in terms of opportunity cost.



bifftannen said:


> This was in 2015 and if I hadn’t lost confidence in the build and cancelled, it would have been at least 48 months (I now think it would have been closer to 60+).



Cancelled and surrendered your deposit or got it refunded?


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Judges usually look for some legally binding contractual obligation. There's not one here. Like literally, he has not agreed to deliver you a guitar in three years, or four years, or five years, and if he is still delivering guitars and showing progress on his workload, I don't know why a judge would rule in your favor (especially given that his apprentice and business partner quit and covid happened, things that were not built in to the estimates).
> 
> I mean, by all means I hope you and many others find some way to get your deposits back and drop out of the queue -- it's only going to help me out. But I think it's somewhat of a fantasy. Not sure where you are but if you're in the UK maybe you can
> manage it, but it's like definitely not going to be worth your time in terms of opportunity cost.
> 
> 
> 
> Cancelled and surrendered your deposit or got it refunded?


I m based in the UK and the process has been already discussed before so if I ever decide to go that way I m pretty sure it will be fruitful. In the UK even emails are legally binding so I m not worried on the legal case. THe thing is that if many people ask for the deposit back at the same time, it s very likely he ll go down, RAN style.. Anyways I hope we get some kind of update sooner than later.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I m based in the UK and the process has been already discussed before so if I ever decide to go that way I m pretty sure it will be fruitful. In the UK even emails are legally binding so I m not worried on the legal case. THe thing is that if many people ask for the deposit back at the same time, it s very likely he ll go down, RAN style.. Anyways I hope we get some kind of update sooner than later.



It's not the medium where the case falls apart -- email is fine. It's just that you never entered into a contract with him where it was agreed that you would have your guitar in X months.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> It's not the medium where the case falls apart -- email is fine. It's just that you never entered into a contract with him where it was agreed that you would have your guitar in X months.


The UK courts do recognise the exchange of money and emails with attached info, timelines etc, having the same legal power as a contract. Again there is a whole process before you end up there, the court is the nuclear option. You see, as long we don't hear from him we ll be wasting time discussing stuff on speculations. In any way let's see how this will unfold.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> The UK courts do recognise the exchange of money and emails with attached info, timelines etc, having the same legal power as a contract. Again there is a whole process before you end up there, the court is the nuclear option. You see, as long we don't hear from him we ll be wasting time discussing stuff on speculations. In any way let's see how this will unfold.



I really can't make this any clearer: Dylan never gave you a timeline for your build.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I really can't make this any clearer: Dylan never gave you a timeline for your build.


I don't think you understand how the law works. It s ok, let's agree to disagree and see how this will unfold.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

narad said:


> I really can't make this any clearer: Dylan never gave you a timeline for your build.



I don't know how consumer protections work wherever you are from, but I firmly believe the small claims courts in the UK would side with Mehegama on this one should it go to the nuclear option.


----------



## bifftannen

mehegama said:


> I think a judge would interpret this differently. what if he comes and say the real estimate is 20 years? I think @bifftannen is describing the situation pretty well. It s not my issue that he took way more orders than he can handle.


None of it is your issue. You entered an agreement that the commission will cost X and it will take approximately Y months to build. The initial agreement is deceptive at worst, desperately inaccurate at best. It just is, and I know I wouldn’t have proceeded with the build if I knew the truth. You have a genuine point and I do not agree with people that are inferring that you enter into the initial agreement and just accept that there is some sort of unspoken open-ended breathing space that should be afforded to Daemoness.


----------



## narad

Ataraxia2320 said:


> I don't know how consumer protections work wherever you are from, but I firmly believe the small claims courts in the UK would side with Mehegama on this one should it go to the nuclear option.



By all means, go for it. In this case it's hard to argue for not giving the deposit back given that work hasn't started and that money has not been tied up in materials for the build. But that's actually a different concept than getting your money back because the historical average timeframe has been exceeded.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> By all means, go for it. In this case it's hard to argue for not giving the deposit back given that work hasn't started and that money has not been tied up in materials for the build. But that's actually a different concept than getting your money back because the historical average timeframe has been exceeded.



That's "_should it go to the nuclear option_".
I think the hope at this stage is still to get to an amicable resolution.


----------



## mehegama

mbardu said:


> That's "_should it go to the nuclear option_".
> I think the hope at this stage is still to get to an amicable resolution.


Of course, I never said I m taking anyone to the court. I love Dylan's work and I want to play my Daemoness asap. But at the same time I need to know the reality of the situation, and being ghosted only adds to the speculation.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> Of course, I never said I m taking anyone to the court. I love Dylan's work and I want to play my Daemoness asap. But at the same time I need to know the reality of the situation, and being ghosted only adds to the speculation.



Nobody can get in touch with him at the minute. I have his mobile number here and sent him a text about 4 or 5 days ago and got no reply. I did hear from him 5 or 6 weeks ago but that's the last I heard. All of my builds have been overdue...I can't say I was ever happy with that being the case either but I sat tight and got them..wonderful guitars imho. This whole Covid-19 situation put him out of action for a good 3-4 months and Barnes leaving, which was the best way to get any reply out of Daemoness, has fired another spanner in the works. Dylan is not a good businessman or communicator either...never has been. I dunno man...what to advise for the best...if you pull out now you've wasted what close to 3 years...bit like the old joke of swimming over halfway of the English channel, giving up and swimming back. Having got builds from him a while back I can say you will be looking at the 5 year mark. You have to ask yourself if you can wait that long...it's a toughie for sure. If you were to get your deposit back you could order something with a quicker turnaround time but it would need to be under 18 months to make it worth your while.


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> Nobody can get in touch with him at the minute. I have his mobile number here and sent him a text about 4 or 5 days ago and got no reply. I did hear from him 5 or 6 weeks ago but that's the last I heard. All of my builds have been overdue...I can't say I was ever happy with that being the case either but I sat tight and got them..wonderful guitars imho. This whole Covid-19 situation put him out of action for a good 3-4 months and Barnes leaving, which was the best way to get any reply out of Daemoness, has fired another spanner in the works. Dylan is not a good businessman or communicator either...never has been. I dunno man...what to advise for the best...if you pull out now you've wasted what close to 3 years...bit like the old joke of swimming over halfway of the English channel, giving up and swimming back. Having got builds from him a while back I can say you will be looking at the 5 year mark. You have to ask yourself if you can wait that long...it's a toughie for sure. If you were to get your deposit back you could order something with a quicker turnaround time but it would need to be under 18 months to make it worth your while.


i m not going to pull out now, i said i can grant him a bit of time for sure, i m not unreasonable but if he comes back to me saying the guitar will be ready in 3 years and it ll be an extra £800, then i m def out and i ll be really disappointed. All this time waiting however made me also change my mind a bit on my build, which will be simpler than what i thought when i put my deposit (the original idea was perfect for Dylan's style, but now i think about it and find it a bit tacky/cheesy) so there are many other very good shops that can produce similar quality and builds. 

You see the problem begins when you are ghosted and on top of that you hear people waiting for years, cost overrides etc. You see he is currently working the early 2016 batch, you do the maths and you feel the disappointment ..


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Man, this thread. One comment by Narad that we shouldn't tell Dylan how to run his business and then we have to put up with 10 pages of debate over how Jeff Kiesel runs his business better than Dylan does 

I think IbanezDaemon's comment basically sums it up. There has been mismanagement with Daemoness, but Dylan has yet to fail to deliver a guitar. If I were 3+ years into it, I'd just wait it out. Call that sunk cost fallacy if you must. 

As for whether Dylan offers a product you can't get elsewhere, that depends on what you order, but looking at his theme builds I'd definitely say 'yes' on the basis that they appear miles ahead of anything else in the industry. 

I don't think that excuses his customer service, of course. 

The basic complaints still seem to be that Dylan isn't communicating with his waitlist customers and that the non-refundable deposits are misleading because the queue is drastically larger than quoted. 

I said it a few pages back, but regardless of how and when Dylan eventually rights the ship, both of those problems could be resolved if the waitlist is shrunk in the future and a small number of in-stock builds are offered each year to make up for the lost deposits. That way, people don't have to wait on a Daemoness unless they absolutely _need_ a custom. 

It isn't an outlandish idea either. Conklin is a one-man operation and has a similar system. Full customs on a waitlist with 9-12 months build time, or standard-spec models with only 4-6 months build time. Strandberg did something similar as well, although he outsourced the in-stock building to production shops like Washburn. There's also Blackmachine, but again, that was an outsource model and Doug probably makes Dylan look like a model for good communication.

Anyway, just a thought. The complaints seem to be more about Dylan's business model than anything else.


----------



## narad

Sermo Lupi said:


> I said it a few pages back, but regardless of how and when Dylan eventually rights the ship, both of those problems could be resolved if the waitlist is shrunk in the future and a small number of in-stock builds are offered each year to make up for the lost deposits. That way, people don't have to wait on a Daemoness unless they absolutely _need_ a custom.
> 
> It isn't an outlandish idea either.



It's not outlandish. You're literally just describing Dylan's business model. It's just that there's been far fewer in-stocks since the apprentice quit and things presumably got too busy on the full-custom side with Dylan doing everything.


----------



## ikarus

IbanezDaemon said:


> This whole Covid-19 situation put him out of action for a good 3-4 months



Why should this be the case? He works alone in his workshop, thats as corona proof as it can be. Even if he can't get stuff from suppliers etc I am sure there is enough work to do in the shop with existing materials. Or he could have updated customers about the whole situation.


----------



## mehegama

Sermo Lupi said:


> Man, this thread. One comment by Narad that we shouldn't tell Dylan how to run his business and then we have to put up with 10 pages of debate over how Jeff Kiesel runs his business better than Dylan does
> 
> I think IbanezDaemon's comment basically sums it up. There has been mismanagement with Daemoness, but Dylan has yet to fail to deliver a guitar. If I were 3+ years into it, I'd just wait it out. Call that sunk cost fallacy if you must.
> 
> As for whether Dylan offers a product you can't get elsewhere, that depends on what you order, but looking at his theme builds I'd definitely say 'yes' on the basis that they appear miles ahead of anything else in the industry.
> 
> I don't think that excuses his customer service, of course.
> 
> The basic complaints still seem to be that Dylan isn't communicating with his waitlist customers and that the non-refundable deposits are misleading because the queue is drastically larger than quoted.
> 
> I said it a few pages back, but regardless of how and when Dylan eventually rights the ship, both of those problems could be resolved if the waitlist is shrunk in the future and a small number of in-stock builds are offered each year to make up for the lost deposits. That way, people don't have to wait on a Daemoness unless they absolutely _need_ a custom.
> 
> It isn't an outlandish idea either. Conklin is a one-man operation and has a similar system. Full customs on a waitlist with 9-12 months build time, or standard-spec models with only 4-6 months build time. Strandberg did something similar as well, although he outsourced the in-stock building to production shops like Washburn. There's also Blackmachine, but again, that was an outsource model and Doug probably makes Dylan look like a model for good communication.
> 
> Anyway, just a thought. The complaints seem to be more about Dylan's business model than anything else.



But i Think we should tell Dylan how to run his business when his model obviously does not work when you have loads of annoyed customers. Now the Kiesel posts were indeed unnecessary.

Your proposal sounds interesting but it will benefit future customers. We are caught in the queue and unfortunately the only way to solve this is to hire someone to help and obviously that will leave less money per guitar for himself, which is fair enough to me given his choices created this huge backlog.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

ikarus said:


> Why should this be the case? He works alone in his workshop, thats as corona proof as it can be. Even if he can't get stuff from suppliers etc I am sure there is enough work to do in the shop with existing materials. Or he could have updated customers about the whole situation.



The workshop is just one unit in a larger building with other businesses in it. There were confirmed cases of Covid-19 in the building even before the UK lockdown so the whole place got shut down. Even with no confirmed cases guitar building would not be deemed essential work and he would not have been able to go there under lockdown rules.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> But i Think we should tell Dylan how to run his business when his model obviously does not work when you have loads of annoyed customers.



In the sense that if maybe you're watching football and like, "No! no! Pass to the other guy!! C'Mon!!! Listen to me!!!", it's like obvious you don't know better than the coach and the players, but being distanced from the actual decisions these people have to make, people act like they have useful advice to offer. 

Like obviously it would be great if Dylan could hire someone and speed up the builds, but kinda inane to think Dylan hasn't considered the possibility of hiring someone else. It's terribly risky to do that, maybe impossible to do under covid conditions, it takes a lot of time to do HR for your company and to advertise for the position, and training the person could easily slow down the current set of builds further, and may not be financially viable at all. 

That's what I mean when I say it's dumb to tell someone how to run their business. Unless you know the industry, know the labor market for guitars, know the books -- what are the margins per guitar? What's Dylan's per hour income? If you know, and you can write out the math, and then you can show how your advice is good. If you have no information, what suggestion can you really offer?


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> In the sense that if maybe you're watching football and like, "No! no! Pass to the other guy!! C'Mon!!! Listen to me!!!", it's like obvious you don't know better than the coach and the players, but being distanced from the actual decisions these people have to make, people act like they have useful advice to offer.
> 
> Like obviously it would be great if Dylan could hire someone and speed up the builds, but kinda inane to think Dylan hasn't considered the possibility of hiring someone else. It's terribly risky to do that, maybe impossible to do under covid conditions, it takes a lot of time to do HR for your company and to advertise for the position, and training the person could easily slow down the current set of builds further, and may not be financially viable at all.
> 
> That's what I mean when I say it's dumb to tell someone how to run their business. Unless you know the industry, know the labor market for guitars, know the books -- what are the margins per guitar? What's Dylan's per hour income? If you know, and you can write out the math, and then you can show how your advice is good. If you have no information, what suggestion can you really offer?


The difference though in your example is that I have paid him money. I m not just a fan watching the situation.
I understand what you say but some things like not taking so many orders when you don't have capacity is common sense. I checked some older NGD and in 2019 there are people getting their guitars having put deposits back in 2014 so this thing is going on for years. I m pretty sure there are good people that would want to work for Dylan given his good name (in the artistic side of things).
Realistically he has no alternative but to hire some one eventually, as how else is he going to reduce the times without a massive outflow of cash from deposit refunds?


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> The difference though in your example is that I have paid him money. I m not just a fan watching the situation.



But that doesn't give you any experience in running a luthiery business or any say in how the business is run. It's not like a deposit gets you a seat on the board of Daemoness corporation. It gets you a spot in a build queue and nothing more.



mehegama said:


> I m pretty sure there are good people that would want to work for Dylan given his good name (in the artistic side of things).



I'm not sure there's a long list of people who have have basic woodworking and setup experience, right-to-work in Bristol, and would work for virtually no money. Further not sure how many of those people would be reliable enough to hang around for years and make their training worthwhile. I'm sure he'll probably have other staff at some point, as he has had before, but it's not the kind of situation where I imagine people lining up for the opportunity. 

But the fact that Dylan had an apprentice shows that this idea is not something he has somehow overlooked. So again I think it becomes not useful advice -- it's not useful if you've already considered and tried it and it failed.


----------



## mbardu

mehegama said:


> Realistically he has no alternative but to hire some one eventually, as how else is he going to reduce the times without a massive outflow of cash from deposit refunds?



Well he could always...(not saying that would _actually_ be what transpires or that it would be the smart move) decide to not refund the non-refundable deposits.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> But that doesn't give you any experience in running a luthiery business or any say in how the business is run. It's not like a deposit gets you a seat on the board of Daemoness corporation. It gets you a spot in a build queue and nothing more.


That's why the football example is not the best in this case, to begin with. Given the situation and size of the queue he will have to pay good money to someone, in my opinion, to get out of this hole he dug himself in by taking so many orders. In any way it is probably inevitable to bleed money to rationalise things.



mbardu said:


> Well he could always...(not saying that would _actually_ be what transpires or that it would be the smart move) decide to not refund the non-refundable deposits.


In that case some might decide to take the legal route where consumer protection laws are quite strong for cases like that. In any case it would be a very bad scenario for every part involved if we ever end up there. It will also be a very very bad publicity incident for Dylan having an open legal disputes on his business. Let's hope we ll never get to that point and we ll get some kind of solution either by speeding things up or be refunding people that fall way behind than the quoted estimates when they put their money in.


----------



## Randy

Can't be bothered to go back and grab the quote but 3-4 month break during a once in 100 fucking year pandemic isn't a lot considering the waiting list on these is 4+ years. Jesus, some of you people are impossible.


----------



## narad

Randy said:


> Can't be bothered to go back and grab the quote but 3-4 month break during a once in 100 fucking year pandemic isn't a lot considering the waiting list on these is 4+ years. Jesus, some of you people are impossible.



And it's not even me this time.


----------



## Blytheryn

Randy said:


> Can't be bothered to go back and grab the quote but 3-4 month break during a once in 100 fucking year pandemic isn't a lot considering the waiting list on these is 4+ years. Jesus, some of you people are impossible.



Exactly what I'm thinking. If I had to guess Dylan's most likely holed up in the shop these days getting guitars out. Three guitars have gone out in like the last month. I believe one guy in the Daemoness FB group mentioned that his Kali Cimmerian was being shipped to him now.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

narad said:


> It's not outlandish. You're literally just describing Dylan's business model. It's just that there's been far fewer in-stocks since the apprentice quit and things presumably got too busy on the full-custom side with Dylan doing everything.



Do you know roughly how many in-stocks he was building per year? When this came up previously, I believe you mentioned the in-stocks were only offered when a customer backed out of a build. So unless I am mistaken it was not part of the business model, it was a way of recouping losses. 

My point is that some shops subsidise expenses by using in-stock guitars or pre-spec'd models because they're faster and easier to build. It also decreases reliance on deposits for custom guitars. The explanation thus far is that Dylan has not done any in-stocks except due to drop-outs due to concerns of queue-jumping. I was making the point that in-stock builds may actually help rather than hurt waitlist customers (at least in the future once the current backlog is worked through). 



mehegama said:


> But i Think we should tell Dylan how to run his business when his model obviously does not work when you have loads of annoyed customers. Now the Kiesel posts were indeed unnecessary.





narad said:


> Like obviously it would be great if Dylan could hire someone and speed up the builds, but kinda inane to think Dylan hasn't considered the possibility of hiring someone else. It's terribly risky to do that, maybe impossible to do under covid conditions, it takes a lot of time to do HR for your company and to advertise for the position, and training the person could easily slow down the current set of builds further, and may not be financially viable at all.
> 
> That's what I mean when I say it's dumb to tell someone how to run their business.



I disagree with a bunch of things here. The idea that any criticism is deemed armchair management because we don't have access to Dylan's accounting books is a bit extreme. You seem to be saying people are out of their depth in discussing this, but I haven't seen many (any?) posts making appeals to authority aside from commenting on customer experiences with other brands. 

The idea that Dylan has already tried everything, or that there's no point in discussing alternative business practices even when these seem to work for other luthiers, or that we're wasting our time giving people professional advice they'll never read, all seem like mischaracterisations of actual discussions in this thread. Most of the advice given has been customer-facing, and, in any case, does not preclude commentary on what factors might have led the Daemoness waitlist to go awry. If the deposits were being used to subsidise current expenses (as I believe Max speculated a few pages back) it does not take any luthiery knowledge to see why that is a problem. 

Anyway, I think we agree on most points aside from the above. I just don't see why on-topic discussion (which you're construing as unsolicited business advice) is more relevant, than, say, baseless comparisons between Daemoness and Kiesel.


----------



## Viginez

no matter what, poor communication and leaving worried customers uninformed and guessing casts negative light on your business.
imo communication is one of the most essential things in dealing with customers.


----------



## possumkiller

Yeah I'm pretty sure the in stock builds in all daemoness history can be counted on your hands.


----------



## SamSam

Maggot skull
Egyptian themed
That 8 string
Erm, any more?


----------



## IbanezDaemon

SamSam said:


> Maggot skull
> Egyptian themed
> That 8 string
> Erm, any more?



Cerberus (which is basically a demo model at the shop), Jackson Dinky Clone (currently on loan to Mikael Almgren of Soreption), Antichrist V, Royal Blood Cimmerian and probably a couple of earlier Hadians.


----------



## Velokki

I don't know if this is a valid thing to argue here, but I fail to see the unique allure in Daemoness. Exactly _what _makes it worth to wait several years for one? What I really see is kinda cool custom paint + inlay jobs. They're look nice, though, for what they are. But I still wouldn't wait 3-5 years for one. If anything, I'd get ESP on the job. But maybe I'm also just indifferent to custom builds nowadays, and don't have this burning vision for a carefully specced dream guitar.


----------



## SamSam

Go get a quote from esp to make a guitar with intricate inlay work and hand painted body art at that standard.

When you see the bill you'll see why we don't see many esp customs around here


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

narad said:


> Like obviously it would be great if Dylan could hire someone and speed up the builds, but kinda inane to think Dylan hasn't considered the possibility of hiring someone else. It's terribly risky to do that, maybe impossible to do under covid conditions, it takes a lot of time to do HR for your company and to advertise for the position, and training the person could easily slow down the current set of builds further, and may not be financially viable at all.



Granted I'm from the states, but I can't imagine it's much different in the UK.
As someone who works in managing staffing / hr / accounting / etc for hundreds of businesses, I can absolutely confirm that bringing staff on would make Dylan's life much, much more complicated. Especially since as far as I am aware, margins in this business are razor-thin. Double so for someone who's output is as low as Daemoness; I was actually kind of appalled to see how much lower than expected his starting prices were when they were posted earlier in this thread. I had always assumed there was no way you're getting your hands on one for less than 5 grand, even for a simpler one like the OP with the classic artsy ones easily fetching PRS Private Stock pricing.

Even when you take the major financial burden of hiring staff out of the equation (and trust me, it IS major), think about what the position would *be*. Dylan has a reputation he _*needs*_ to uphold (aware of the irony of posting this in this thread), and would need someone with an appropriate skillset to do so. A skillset like that isn't easy to find, and it's not cheap when you do. Not to mention that he'd still have to spend a sizable amount of time training this person even if they were a woodworking wizard because odds are they haven't worked building guitars before.

And that's _*still*_ assuming that the guy is 'trainable,' some folks are set in their ways; my family owned an auto shop for about 20 years and my father ran into this issue _*frequently*_. He had an amazing reputation in the area, and as such frequently had to turn away business because he was a one man operation. Every time we tried to hire somebody to help, even folks with a demonstrated knowledge in their field with certifications and all that, things didn't work out. Some cut corners because their name wasn't on the building, even though they were skilled enough to not need to. Some had issues managing their personal life, let it interfere with work, and were great employees otherwise but couldn't handle their shit. And the most frustrating were the guys that had their shit together, knew what they were doing, but if you had to teach them something new, would just shut down. Over 20 years in business and we only had 1 employee that was a positive experience from start to finish. It was so bad that we stopped trying altogether in the last handful of years and just resigned to running a one man shop.


----------



## Blytheryn

IbanezDaemon said:


> Cerberus (which is basically a demo model at the shop), Jackson Dinky Clone (currently on loan to Mikael Almgren of Soreption), Antichrist V, Royal Blood Cimmerian and probably a couple of earlier Hadians.



World's Edge Storm too.



Velokki said:


> But maybe I'm also just indifferent to custom builds nowadays, and don't have this burning vision for a carefully specced dream guitar.



That's exactly it.


----------



## Forkface

SamSam said:


> Go get a quote from esp to make a guitar with intricate inlay work and hand painted body art at that standard.
> 
> When you see the bill you'll see why we don't see many esp customs around here


oh yeah, for sure i agree. judging by the exhibition series, they must be like 12k or something. but i also think that judging by the Daemonesses you see around, a lot of them _dont_ have the intricate inlay and body work. theyre just metal superstrats (granted, body shape a lil different in a good way, and i also like the headstock shape). i dont think all of the people in Dylan's waitlist want Mother of Pearl tentacles across the board.


----------



## SamSam

Forkface said:


> oh yeah, for sure i agree. judging by the exhibition series, they must be like 12k or something. but i also think that judging by the Daemonesses you see around, a lot of them _dont_ have the intricate inlay and body work. theyre just metal superstrats (granted, body shape a lil different in a good way, and i also like the headstock shape). i dont think all of the people in Dylan's waitlist want Mother of Pearl tentacles across the board.



For the price of a decked out daemoness, esp might switch on their cnc machine for you.

I own a daemoness and an esp custom (sig model mind, nothing crazy). They are both fantastic but they are very different.


----------



## Blytheryn

Forkface said:


> oh yeah, for sure i agree. judging by the exhibition series, they must be like 12k or something. but i also think that judging by the Daemonesses you see around, a lot of them _dont_ have the intricate inlay and body work. theyre just metal superstrats (granted, body shape a lil different in a good way, and i also like the headstock shape). i dont think all of the people in Dylan's waitlist want Mother of Pearl tentacles across the board.



Seriously?


----------



## Forkface

Blytheryn said:


> Seriously?


a quick scroll on the Daemoness IG and i saw 7 guitars with blank fretboards, 1 with regularesque markers that look like jacksons pirahna tooths, 1 with an elaborate inlay on the 12th fret, and 1 with a full board. all im saying is, its not _that _common.


----------



## cip 123

I feel like some people here are forgetting the current climate, i.e. Global Pandemic.

It might not seem like Single luthiers should be hit, but they are, the whole world is hit. If things were slow they're going to be even slower. Dylan probably already knew he was behind and is probably himself quite anxious to get back to a proper workflow. 2020 ain't a great year, if you paid money 3+ years ago sure it'd be nice to have it but you've already paid it, wait it out for a response which will surely come eventually.

On the subject of hiring someone, people can spout however much legal jargon is on their side to get their money back but then not even THINK about the legal precautions in hiring someone. It's huge, and while it is good to have a helping hand, a lot of self employed people are self employed for a reason, they don't wanna work with anyone else.

If you're in the build queue take a step back, get on with more important things, let the world return to a little bit of normality.


----------



## ikarus

cip 123 said:


> I feel like some people here are forgetting the current climate, i.e. Global Pandemic.



I feel like some people forget that apparently he is currently working on orders from 2016 which has nothing to do with the pandemic situation.


----------



## SpaceDock

https://reverb.com/item/34757312-daemoness-classic-v

Skip the wait! Srsly, I can understand why some would wait so many years. Such beautiful guitars.


----------



## mbardu

SpaceDock said:


> _*Such beautiful guitars*_.



Proceeds to linking to one of the blandest Daemoness in existence.
Sorry, couldn't resist 

Agree with the sentiment though. If I was in the market for a heirloom-type piece of art with crazy inlay...he does amazing jobs.


----------



## SpaceDock

I find it tastefully understated. I would buy 100% if I had 4K to spend on such things lol.


----------



## mehegama

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Granted I'm from the states, but I can't imagine it's much different in the UK.
> As someone who works in managing staffing / hr / accounting / etc for hundreds of businesses, I can absolutely confirm that bringing staff on would make Dylan's life much, much more complicated. Especially since as far as I am aware, margins in this business are razor-thin. Double so for someone who's output is as low as Daemoness; I was actually kind of appalled to see how much lower than expected his starting prices were when they were posted earlier in this thread. I had always assumed there was no way you're getting your hands on one for less than 5 grand, even for a simpler one like the OP with the classic artsy ones easily fetching PRS Private Stock pricing.
> 
> Even when you take the major financial burden of hiring staff out of the equation (and trust me, it IS major), think about what the position would *be*. Dylan has a reputation he _*needs*_ to uphold (aware of the irony of posting this in this thread), and would need someone with an appropriate skillset to do so. A skillset like that isn't easy to find, and it's not cheap when you do. Not to mention that he'd still have to spend a sizable amount of time training this person even if they were a woodworking wizard because odds are they haven't worked building guitars before.
> 
> And that's _*still*_ assuming that the guy is 'trainable,' some folks are set in their ways; my family owned an auto shop for about 20 years and my father ran into this issue _*frequently*_. He had an amazing reputation in the area, and as such frequently had to turn away business because he was a one man operation. Every time we tried to hire somebody to help, even folks with a demonstrated knowledge in their field with certifications and all that, things didn't work out. Some cut corners because their name wasn't on the building, even though they were skilled enough to not need to. Some had issues managing their personal life, let it interfere with work, and were great employees otherwise but couldn't handle their shit. And the most frustrating were the guys that had their shit together, knew what they were doing, but if you had to teach them something new, would just shut down. Over 20 years in business and we only had 1 employee that was a positive experience from start to finish. It was so bad that we stopped trying altogether in the last handful of years and just resigned to running a one man shop.


Ok, then what is the way out of this situation? He is currently working on 2016 orders, how is he going to catch up with the timelines he has given to people?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> Ok, then what is the way out of this situation? He is currently working on 2016 orders, how is he going to catch up with the timelines he has given to people?



He's going to ship out a small batch every so often, like he's been doing.

The market will then decide. If he keeps getting deposits, nothing will probably change. If deposits slow down, there might be a shift in either work flow or pricing. 

I think you're going to have to come to terms with the fact there isn't a magic solution here. You're going to have to just wait like everyone else, abandon your deposit, or try to roll the dice in the courts.

We're like 20+ more pages in and the options and outlook are the same.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> He's going to ship out a small batch every so often, like he's been doing.
> 
> The market will then decide. If he keeps getting deposits, nothing will probably change. If deposits slow down, there might be a shift in either work flow or pricing.
> 
> I think you're going to have to come to terms with the fact there isn't a magic solution here. You're going to have to just wait like everyone else, abandon your deposit, or try to roll the dice in the courts.
> 
> We're like 20+ more pages in and the options and outlook are the same.


You are right. I ll make my decision when he eventually contacts me and gives me the timelines. Abandoning the deposit is not an option. I m really hoping he ll get some help somehow so we all get our orders in a reasonable time.


----------



## cip 123

ikarus said:


> I feel like some people forget that apparently he is currently working on orders from 2016 which has nothing to do with the pandemic situation.


Yea and if he was already behind thinking about legal action during this time is maybe just tossing fuel on the fire. 

Yea it sucks he's that far behind and no one likes to see guitars arrive like OP's but maybe some guys should just give it a few months given the circumstances.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

ikarus said:


> I feel like some people forget that apparently he is currently working on orders from 2016 which has nothing to do with the pandemic situation.



Unless there's a time warp that pushes guitars ordered in 2016 past the covid shutdowns, yeah it contributes. 

If I leave for work and make great time but still hit a traffic jam just outside the parking lot I'll still be late. 

There have been other hiccups along the way associated with running an operation so small. It adds up.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Unless there's a time warp that pushes guitars ordered in 2016 past the covid shutdowns, yeah it contributes.
> 
> If I leave for work and make great time but still hit a traffic jam just outside the parking lot I'll still be late.
> 
> There have been other hiccups along the way associated with running an operation so small. It adds up.


I think he means that the problem goes far beyond the covid situation. if he is behind 4-5 years the 2.5 months of lockdown in the UK, will not contribute that much to the delay. And this is a valid point that @ikarus is making in my opinion.


----------



## mbardu

mehegama said:


> I think he means that the problem goes far beyond the covid situation. if he is behind 4-5 years the 2.5 months of lockdown in the UK, will not contribute that much to the delay. And this is a valid point that @ikarus is making in my opinion.



To take Max's analogy, it would mean you leave home for work 3 hours late, and try to use a 5 minutes traffic jam as your excuse in front of your boss


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> I think he means that the problem goes far beyond the covid situation. if he is behind 4-5 years the 2.5 months of lockdown in the UK, will not contribute that much to the delay. And this is a valid point that @ikarus is making in my opinion.



Having built guitars, I can tell you that things can't just sit for a couple months without issues depending on where it's at in the process. 

Given the further protracted timeline, I think you're just mad and don't really want to give an inch. 

Daemoness has never been a fast builder. That shouldn't be news in 2020.



mbardu said:


> To take Max's analogy, it would mean you leave home for work 3 hours late, and try to use a 5 minutes traffic jam as your excuse in front of your boss



It doesn't seem that Daemoness is too far behind considering the loss of contractors/vendors, staffing changes, and a world put on hold, on top of various issues that pop up on builds.

This isn't the usual case of a builder promising three months and stretching into three years, the time frame was at least 40 months going in from the sounds of it.

Hearing that it would be nearly three years before even starting should have been a clue.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Having built guitars, I can tell you that things can't just sit for a couple months without issues depending on where it's at in the process.
> 
> Given the further protracted timeline, I think you're just mad and don't really want to give an inch.
> 
> Daemoness has never been a fast builder. That shouldn't be news in 2020.



More so than "giving an inch", I feel it's just made it clear that there are some people who are fine with "30 months could mean 10 years...no big deal because it's a small operation and I already have 10 other custom guitars" whereas there are some people who expect "about 30 months" to mean 30 months give or take...maybe +50% and otherwise feel cheated.

If you're in the second category, and don't frequent internet forums enough to know how deceptive those promised build times can be, I can understand the frustration.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Having built guitars, I can tell you that things can't just sit for a couple months without issues depending on where it's at in the process.
> 
> Given the further protracted timeline, I think you're just mad and don't really want to give an inch.
> 
> Daemoness has never been a fast builder. That shouldn't be news in 2020.


If you are referring to me, I m not mad at all. Just worried and a bit annoyed for being ignored while i have not bothered him for the last 28 months at all (just clarifying that i m not one of these ppl that sending emails every week). Again it is a matter of expectations. I knew it takes time, but it seems it takes way more time than i was quoted, and that is something I did not know about it. Had this thread been written 2.5 years ago, i would not have put the money in. Now, as you correctly say all I can do is wait and see. 
Covid certainly did not help at all.. but I dont think we can use it as a main or serious excuse for the delay, when he is far far behind anyways.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> More so than "giving an inch", I feel it's just made it clear that there are some people who are fine with "30 months could mean 10 years...no big deal because it's a small operation and I already have 10 other custom guitars" whereas there are some people who expect "about 30 months" to mean 30 months give or take...maybe +50% and otherwise feel cheated.
> 
> If you're in the second category, and don't frequent internet forums enough to know how deceptive those promised build times can be, I can understand the frustration.



You're right, some folks just shouldn't order from independent luthiers. 

The dude could get hit by a bus or find Jesus and decide to live as a monk.

There's risk.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're right, some folks just shouldn't order from independent luthiers.
> 
> There's risk.



This 100% unironically. Some people should not order from independent luthiers. Not everyone is willing to handle the downsides involved in getting something 100% unique from a one man shop and that's OK.

But the fact that they are still enticed to do so because of unrealistic promises and time-frames is a shame.


----------



## mehegama

But how can someone be protectec by such cases? it s a lesson for me for sure


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> But how can someone be protectec by such cases? it s a lesson for me for sure


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


>


You are probably right, although i never had issues with other custom shops like ESP or Skervesen . Seems that Dylan is “high risk” and i m afraid this is not going to end well


----------



## mbardu

He protec

He attac

But also, he don' give your deposit bac


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> You are probably right, although i never had issues with other custom shops like ESP or Skervesen . Seems that Dylan is “high risk” and i m afraid this is not going to end well



The thing is, you can't compare a shop with multiple employees and a one man operation, especially those with huge financial backing like ESP.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> You are probably right, although i never had issues with other custom shops like ESP or Skervesen . Seems that Dylan is “high risk” and i m afraid this is not going to end well



A one-man shop's always going to have higher risk. Anything can happen. Taku Sakashta was murdered in his shop by a runaway felon. You better believe people in the middle of those builds didn't get anything back. Solo builders are like the wild west -- they've had no incentive to even build up any backup plan and there's no safety net.

I mean, I had to chase Vik for 2 years to get $3k in deposit money and he wasn't even having trouble building, he was just being an asshole. Darren at Decibel took like 8 months to get a deposit back, and basically anyone after me in in the queue took years. Or you can be like Hollowway IIRC and have had it happen like 3-4 times in a row. 

This high risk doesn't mean that it's the wrong business model. People who want something unique and have clear vision of it can probably go to Dylan in ways they can't go to ESP or Skervesen. So do you want one guy to cater to your needs 1-on-1, or do you want a bunch of guys to build you some wood/finish variation of what they build for every other person?


----------



## Vyn

The reason it's 'high risk' is usually a lot of small solo builders whilst being phenomenal builders have no business experience going into it. 

It starts off as building guitars for fun, building guitars for friends, taking some orders, getting hyped to shit when a major artist sprukes the brand and then too many orders, death. What should really happen is "Okay, I want to do this for a business, I'm going to build x amount of guitars for the first year and 25% will be in-stocks, y the next, z year I'm going to have an apprentice" so on and so forth. Good business sense when starting up also means having some reserves in case shit hits the fan. 

This isn't how Dylan should fix his business model, more a differential between how a lot of builders start and subsequently fail vs how they should start.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> A one-man shop's always going to have higher risk. Anything can happen. Taku Sakashta was murdered in his shop by a runaway felon. You better believe people in the middle of those builds didn't get anything back. Solo builders are like the wild west -- they've had no incentive to even build up any backup plan and there's no safety net.
> 
> I mean, I had to chase Vik for 2 years to get $3k in deposit money and he wasn't even having trouble building, he was just being an asshole. Darren at Decibel took like 8 months to get a deposit back, and basically anyone after me in in the queue took years. Or you can be like Hollowway IIRC and have had it happen like 3-4 times in a row.
> 
> This high risk doesn't mean that it's the wrong business model. People who want something unique and have clear vision of it can probably go to Dylan in ways they can't go to ESP or Skervesen. So do you want one guy to cater to your needs 1-on-1, or do you want a bunch of guys to build you some wood/finish variation of what they build for every other person?



You are clearly the type of person who doesn't mind the downsides of the single-person operations, and clearly you have _*a lot *_of tolerance for people not delivering to you on their promises. It's fine if you rationalize it as "they are small operations so the timelines they promise are not meant to be realistic", but that's you cutting them some slack. Nobody is _forcing_ those builders to make those promises, so making them, and then egregiously not delivering on them is 100% their responsibility and 0% the responsibility of the buyer.

Also, there's very little that ESP will not do in your example. It will probably cost you _more _than Daemoness, but they can do quite a lot.


----------



## asopala

mbardu said:


> Also, there's very little that ESP will not do in your example. It will probably cost you _more _than Daemoness, but they can do quite a lot.



Not to derail this further, but let's be honest, if you got the money, they'll do literally anything. The rub? The money. Some of their instruments can cost the price of a Tesla, but at least your guitar is an actual freaking wooden angel statue, for example.

The other thing too that I think was mentioned is that while ESP and Daemoness could make the same instrument, it would play significantly different between the two. At that point it's more of a decision to make.

Either way, I agree with mbardu on this, the customer who pays a couple thousand (is my guess for the deposit based on the last custom I bought--not from Daemoness, but it was a 1-man operation) despite delays and getting ghosted when asking about delays isn't in the wrong here. It's been said before too, but communication is everything to instill confidence in a customer, regardless of the prestige of a company. I'd argue it's all the more vital for a one-man show, because there's nobody else to get in contact with.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> You are clearly the type of person who doesn't mind the downsides of the single-person operations, and clearly you have _*a lot *_of tolerance for people not delivering to you on their promises. It's fine if you rationalize it as "they are small operations so the timelines they promise are not meant to be realistic", but that's you cutting them some slack. Nobody is forcing _them _to make those promises, so not delivering on them is 100% their responsibility and 0% the responsibility of the buyer.
> 
> Also, there's very little that ESP will not do in your example. It will probably cost you _more _than Daemoness, but they can do quite a lot.



You call it "cutting...slack", others call it "being realistic". 

It's just not realistic to think that a build three years from starting might not run into complications from now till then. 

How was Dylan supposed to know that his finish contractor was going to die, or his apprentice would decide that building guitars wasn't for them, or his business partner would leave, or that there would be a pandemic? 

Sure, it's good to build some of that in, but if you account for absolutely everything you'd be giving estimates of 25 years.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> You are clearly the type of person who doesn't mind the downsides of the single-person operations, and clearly you have _*a lot *_of tolerance for people not delivering to you on their promises. It's fine if you rationalize it as "they are small operations so the timelines they promise are not meant to be realistic", but that's you cutting them some slack. Nobody is forcing _them _to make those promises, so not delivering on them is 100% their responsibility and 0% the responsibility of the buyer.



I'm not sure that's a good characterization. If I ask a builder how long my build will take, and they say X months, then I expect it at that time. Very few builders will even make this sort of agreement with you. That's why Dylan's estimates these days are not provided in any contractually binding way. In your words, nobody is forcing them to make those promises -- in fact, they are often not making those promises! That's just customers treating an "As a guide" estimate with explicit "though this may vary" qualifications, as a "Your guitar will be done at this time -- count on it!" promise.

Like when I asked Dan @ Oni how long the build would take he was like, well, if you're going to make me quote a time.. "5-6 years? Maybe I can get it done sooner though." Everything went wrong with that build and it was rebuilt like 3 times, took way longer than multiple other guitars, and I think it was delivered in about 5 years. So Dan was smart to build in that flexibility -- maybe he learned that lesson earlier. Yet, Dan's "As a guide" estimate is not 5 years.



mbardu said:


> Also, there's very little that ESP will not do in your example. It will probably cost you _more _than Daemoness, but they can do quite a lot.



I mean, yes, if you can pay them $35,000 they might build you a Shinigami. But for all practical purposes, ESP does not offer much flexibility in their options. I've literally sat down at the ESP custom shop desk -- the one surrounded by all the wood in the videos -- for hours going over potential specs and trying to make the price work. In this case I wanted a fancy in-house paint pattern job on an FRX and I could not get it down below $7.5k, and that's a paintjob they already know how to do on that model even. Let alone what they would charge if they had to actually outsource the idea to a paint guy at Dylan's level.

And you definitely can't let them have any artistic freedom. You can call up Dylan and be like, "Yo, you know that scene in 'The Thing' where the head of the guy grows spider legs and runs away? Could you do something like that on the body of the guitar?" There's a real difference in that sort of interaction and just writing the idea in the "options" box on the ESP spec sheet. And at the same time, I don't live/eat/breath metal, so actually when I throw some theme idea at Dylan, likely he knows more about that theme than I do. So when we were talking about a Norse jormungandr theme he already knew how artists had depicted it over time and what type of reference he wanted to use. You're not going to get that at ESP. When ESP does metal, it's like the McDonald's of metal. You really simply cannot get the artistry of Daemoness at ESP because they are not artists in the same way Dylan is.



asopala said:


> Either way, I agree with mbardu on this, the customer who pays a couple thousand (is my guess for the deposit based on the last custom I bought--not from Daemoness, but it was a 1-man operation) .



It's like 650 GBP. It's one of the smaller deposit amounts out there.


----------



## asopala

narad said:


> It's like 650 GBP. It's one of the smaller deposit amounts out there.



Well, my bad then, thanks for the correction. Actually, that's kinda surprising, come to think of it. I would think at least 785 GBP ($1000 US).


----------



## narad

asopala said:


> Well, my bad then, thanks for the correction. Actually, that's kinda surprising, come to think of it. I would think at least 785 GBP ($1000 US).



When I put in my first deposit probably pretty close to him starting out, 650 GBP _was_ $1000 US.


----------



## asopala

narad said:


> When I put in my first deposit probably pretty close to him starting out, 650 GBP _was_ $1000 US.



Weird to think about these days, the Pound being that strong.

Also, after doing a quick search to see if he posted the current deposit price anywhere, looks like the deposit is even lower now at 600GBP, or $763 US. That's really surprisingly low, I must say.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

asopala said:


> Weird to think about these days, the Pound being that strong.
> 
> Also, after doing a quick search to see if he posted the current deposit price anywhere, looks like the deposit is even lower now at 600GBP, or $763 US. That's really surprisingly low, I must say.



That seems to be the amount to secure your spot on the list, not the material outlay that other builders base thier deposit on.


----------



## asopala

MaxOfMetal said:


> That seems to be the amount to secure your spot on the list, not the material outlay that other builders base thier deposit on.



Do you mean the deposit doesn't go towards the price of the instrument?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

asopala said:


> Do you mean the deposit doesn't go towards the price of the instrument?



It does, but it's sort of an arbitrary amount vs. other builders who use the material costs as the basis for the deposit. 

So that 650GBP is a credit towards the build, you'll still have to pay a second amount for the materials once the build commences and then a final amount when due for completion.


----------



## narad

asopala said:


> Do you mean the deposit doesn't go towards the price of the instrument?



It does, but you're asked for a second amount right before the build starts. An example might be like:

650 GBP for queue (then wait 3 years)
1250 GBP for start of build
850 GBP towards completion
200 GBP ship (in my case)


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I'm not sure that's a good characterization. If I ask a builder how long my build will take, and they say X months, then I expect it at that time. Very few builders will even make this sort of agreement with you. That's why Dylan's estimates these days are not provided in any contractually binding way. In your words, nobody is forcing them to make those promises -- in fact, they are often not making those promises! That's just customers treating an "As a guide" estimate with explicit "though this may vary" qualifications, as a "Your guitar will be done at this time -- count on it!" promise.
> 
> Like when I asked Dan @ Oni how long the build would take he was like, well, if you're going to make me quote a time.. "5-6 years? Maybe I can get it done sooner though." Everything went wrong with that build and it was rebuilt like 3 times, took way longer than multiple other guitars, and I think it was delivered in about 5 years. So Dan was smart to build in that flexibility -- maybe he learned that lesson earlier. Yet, Dan's "As a guide" estimate is not 5 years.
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, yes, if you can pay them $35,000 they might build you a Shinigami. But for all practical purposes, ESP does not offer much flexibility in their options. I've literally sat down at the ESP custom shop desk -- the one surrounded by all the wood in the videos -- for hours going over potential specs and trying to make the price work. In this case I wanted a fancy in-house paint pattern job on an FRX and I could not get it down below $7.5k, and that's a paintjob they already know how to do on that model even. Let alone what they would charge if they had to actually outsource the idea to a paint guy at Dylan's level.
> 
> And you definitely can't let them have any artistic freedom. You can call up Dylan and be like, "Yo, you know that scene in 'The Thing' where the head of the guy grows spider legs and runs away? Could you do something like that on the body of the guitar?" There's a real difference in that sort of interaction and just writing the idea in the "options" box on the ESP spec sheet. And at the same time, I don't live/eat/breath metal, so actually when I throw some theme idea at Dylan, likely he knows more about that theme than I do. So when we were talking about a Norse jormungandr theme he already knew how artists had depicted it over time and what type of reference he wanted to use. You're not going to get that at ESP. When ESP does metal, it's like the McDonald's of metal. You really simply cannot get the artistry of Daemoness at ESP because they are not artists in the same way Dylan is.
> 
> 
> 
> It's like 650 GBP. It's one of the smaller deposit amounts out there.



So we're basically saying exactly the same thing then 
And again, you have both that knowledge and the tolerance for that sort of thing...but I'm sure you can understand that not everyone is in your position and with your prior experience.



MaxOfMetal said:


> You call it "cutting...slack", others call it "being realistic".
> 
> It's just not realistic to think that a build three years from starting might not run into complications from now till then.
> 
> How was Dylan supposed to know that his finish contractor was going to die, or his apprentice would decide that building guitars wasn't for them, or his business partner would leave, or that there would be a pandemic?
> 
> Sure, it's good to build some of that in, but if you account for absolutely everything you'd be giving estimates of 25 years.



What does "It's just not realistic to think that a build three years from starting might not run into complications from now till then" mean?
I know _we a_re guitar geeks, frequent posters here, _we_'ve seen a lot of shenanigans in the past so _we _kind of have our own understanding of what an actual build time is going to be.

But let's take a step back from _us_. Not everyone follows social media closely, or reads all build updates on SSO, or has past experience of a dozen builds and knows what _actually _to expect.
Some people talk with a builder, get quoted 30 months (nobody _forced _the builder to quote that amount), and that person start to expects 30 months or something at least close. You know I'm not talking about 25 years. But if it's going to be 6 years, it's way more honest to quote "about 5 years, maybe more" than "about 30 months". I find the latter extremely hard to justify except to pocket a bunch of deposit cash.
If you take that point of view, then you _have _to understand the frustration.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> So we're basically saying exactly the same thing then
> And again, you have both that knowledge and the tolerance for that sort of thing...but I'm sure you can understand that not everyone is in your position and with your prior experience.
> 
> 
> 
> What does "It's just not realistic to think that a build three years from starting might not run into complications from now till then" mean?
> I know _we a_re guitar geeks, frequent posters here, _we_'ve seen a lot of shenanigans in the past so _we _kind of have our own understanding of what an actual build time is going to be.
> 
> But let's take a step back from _us_. Not everyone follows social media closely, or reads all build updates on SSO, or has past experience of a dozen builds and knows what to expect.
> Some people talk with a builder, get quoted 30 months (nobody _forced _the builder to quote that amount), and that person start to expects 30 months or something at least close. You know I'm not talking about 25 years. But if it's going to be 6 years, it's way more honest to quote "about 5 years, maybe more" than "about 30 months". I found the latter extremely hard to justify except to pocket a bunch of deposit cash.
> If you take that point of view, then you _have _to understand the frustration.



I mean, you'd have to be somewhat aware of the scene to even find out about Daemoness. 

If you don't know who or what you're sending your money to, can you really claim no fault? 

Besides all that, there seems to still be a misunderstanding of what "quote" and "estimate" mean. They are not synonyms for "promise" or "guarantee".


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, you'd have to be somewhat aware of the scene to even find out about Daemoness.
> 
> If you don't know who or what you're sending your money to, can you really claim no fault?
> 
> Besides all that, there seems to still be a misunderstanding of what "quote" and "estimate" mean. They are not synonyms for "promise" or "guarantee".



Seriously that's the argument? "If you order from this guy and he quotes you 30 months, you should know it's actually going to be 5/6 years, otherwise it's kinda your fault"? Isn't that getting to straight-up victim blaming?
The kind that we easily accuse _other people_ of doing for way less egregious things when we're talking about other brands which we much more easily like to shit on around here ?

For instance- I do consider myself pretty well informed compared to the average guitar enthusiast.
I may have been in a position to look at Daemoness about 18 months ago, when incidentally I was way less active on forums.

If I had been given a build time of 30 months, I may have assumed "OK i'll add 30/40% to that, it's not too bad", but instead adding 1/200% from what its' looking like nowadays?
I don't see how that's acceptable at all. At this stage it's not just a missed estimate or a cute "it's a one man operation, let's cut him some slack", it's straight up lying. I get it, the guy is a darling of the forum and has done some pretty insane builds. But there are some serious double standards here.

Edit: Again that's been discussed in pages before "quote" or "estimate" are not meant to be exact. We all know that. But we're not talking a small difference here. Any reasonable person would see that. Nobody is forcing the builder to give those dates when they already know they're way unrealistic. The only reason to do so is dishonesty at this stage.


----------



## AboutBlank

What a wonderful combination of word twisting, insisting on one's point of view and ego this thread is...

What I can't really understand is the fact that if I can't do my "normal" work (lockdown), I can't really use the time otherwise (vacation), why not work off the seemingly huge backlog of outstanding customer communication?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Seriously that's the argument? "If you order from this guy and he quotes you 30 months, you should know it's actually going to be 5/6 years, otherwise it's kinda your fault"? Isn't that getting to straight-up victim blaming?
> The kind that we easily accuse _other people_ of doing for way less egregious things when we're talking about other brands which we much more easily like to shit on around here ?
> 
> For instance- I do consider myself pretty well informed compared to the average guitar enthusiast.
> I may have been in a position to look at Daemoness about 18 months ago, when incidentally I was way less active on forums.
> 
> If I had been given a build time of 30 months, I may have assumed "OK i'll add 30/40% to that, it's not too bad", but instead adding 200% from what its' looking like nowadays?
> I don't see how that's acceptable at all. At this stage it's not just a missed estimate or a cute "it's a one man operation, let's cut him some slack", it's straight up lying. I get it, the guy is a darling of the forum and has done some pretty insane builds. But there are some serious double standards here.
> 
> Edit: Again that's been discussed in pages before "quote" or "estimate" are not meant to be exact. We all know that. But we're not talking a small difference here. Any reasonable person would see that.



The heart of the issue is if the estimate was made in good faith. 

Given that at the time it was a three person operation with a good paint guy and no lock downs, I think it was. 

Given the already quoted time frame, it would be unreasonable to assume that there would be no potential for a problem at some point. Three years is a long time.


----------



## Vyn

mehegama said:


> You are probably right, although i never had issues with other custom shops like ESP or Skervesen . Seems that Dylan is “high risk” and i m afraid this is not going to end well





AboutBlank said:


> What a wonderful combination of word twisting, insisting on one's point of view and ego this thread is...
> 
> What I can't really understand is the fact that if I can't do my "normal" work (lockdown), I can't really use the time otherwise (vacation), why not work off the seemingly huge backlog of outstanding customer communication?



I actually have an answer to this (not saying this is what happened, however this has happened to friends running small businesses sadly). People when shutdown hit all of a sudden had their income stop and were in the space of less than 24hrs thrown into completely re-evaluating their whole lives. In the case of two of my friends, they fell heavily into depression and were paralysed by it. I know a lot of people who took it as an oppotunity to do other things, learn new things or get stuck into projects however some people really, really struggled. So I can understand why there wasn't an effort to catch up on the communication side of things.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Seriously that's the argument? "If you order from this guy and he quotes you 30 months, you should know it's actually going to be 5/6 years, otherwise it's kinda your fault"? Isn't that getting to straight-up victim blaming?



Dude, victim blaming? People seek out Daemoness. Daemoness provides a loose estimate clearly stating that it is only an approximation and could vary. And by choosing to ignore that this estimate is only provided as general guideline, and that Dylan's had his help leave, his shop collapse, and the most serious pandemic in a century are all significant factors that would cause these estimates to be inaccurate, becomes a victim? 

You're not a victim if you knowingly enter into an agreement where the builder tells you the time can vary, and the time varies.

It's like...running a stop light and getting hit in the intersection. "If only I had known it was it going to happen, I wouldn't have run it! I mean, the stoplight implied that it had the _potential_ to happen, but this time, it really did! How could this have been prevented??"


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> I believe one guy in the Daemoness FB group mentioned that his Kali Cimmerian was being shipped to him now.



Really just now? Tell me that's because he was still saving up a little here and there to pay it off cause that guitar has been done for quite a while.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Sermo Lupi said:


> Man, this thread. One comment by Narad that we shouldn't tell Dylan how to run his business and then we have to put up with 10 pages of debate over how Jeff Kiesel runs his business better than Dylan does



Jeff literally DOES run his business better. A multi million dollar operation which actually makes profit. They also deliver guitars on time and usually to a good standard. Clearly he has good operations to allow relatively affordable custom guitars to be built in the USA. 



SamSam said:


> Go get a quote from esp to make a guitar with intricate inlay work and hand painted body art at that standard.
> 
> When you see the bill you'll see why we don't see many esp customs around here



I’m going this route right now. Yeah it’s expensive, but it WILL be delivered and there is no chance it looks like OPs guitar. 



AboutBlank said:


> What a wonderful combination of word twisting, insisting on one's point of view and ego this thread is...
> 
> What I can't really understand is the fact that if I can't do my "normal" work (lockdown), I can't really use the time otherwise (vacation), why not work off the seemingly huge backlog of outstanding customer communication?



Because he doesn’t fucking WANT to. That’s all it boils down to. Doesn’t reply to emails. Didn’t even tell people there’s a new email address. Doesn’t reply to Instagram DMs. Doesn’t even reply to text messages from people who have his mobile number. 

How long would it take to go through a bunch of emails and messages and reply? A couple days at the absolute maximum. 

How long would it take to post a statement to FB/Instagram or their website? 5 minutes. 

Yet he’s producing artist guitars. He’s building one for a Youtuber (who skipped the queue) right now. And he’s making elaborate paintings. He’s doing all sorts of other things - the things that he WANTS to do. 

It’s not that he has zero time for emailing or building. It’s that he gives zero priority to communicating, and he gives not enough priority to reducing the build queue.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Dude, victim blaming? People seek out Daemoness. Daemoness provides a loose estimate clearly stating that it is only an approximation and could vary. And by choosing to ignore that this estimate is only provided as general guideline, and that Dylan's had his help leave, his shop collapse, and the most serious pandemic in a century are all significant factors that would cause these estimates to be inaccurate, becomes a victim?
> 
> You're not a victim if you knowingly enter into an agreement where the builder tells you the time can vary, and the time varies.
> 
> It's like...running a stop light and getting hit in the intersection. "If only I had known it was it going to happen, I wouldn't have run it! I mean, the stoplight implied that it had the _potential_ to happen, but this time, it really did! How could this have been prevented??"



Again, I feel like you are unable to place yourselves in the shoes of anyone who's not yourself. Of course you know those things. Of course you're up to date with exactly what happened to Dylan, and you have your _interpretation _of quoted times. But you have to realize you are far from the majority.
I had no idea his help left, his shop collapse etc etc. Is that a prerequisite to be able to order from him? And are you supposed then to not trust _his _word when _he _specifically quotes 30 months but instead build your own estimate in your head? Maybe you do that because you keep going into those builds, but you're the exception, not the rule.

I do get Max's final argument. If the estimate at the time (4/5 years ago) of 30 months was made_ in good faith_, and representative of build times then...fair enough.
Maybe contacting him today he would give you a realistic estimate of 5/6 years with the information he has now. I have no idea, but that would certainly be the honest thing to do.
If today, he gives estimates that are wildly underestimated (again, wildly as in more than double the times, not a ~+30% or whatever), then it is pure dishonesty. Maybe dishonesty that doesn't bother you personally- but certainly dishonesty that would and should bother most people.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> He’s building one for a Youtuber (who skipped the queue) right now.



I'd like some proof of this queue skipping.



mbardu said:


> Again, I feel like you are unable to place yourselves in the shoes of anyone who's not yourself. Of course you know those things. Of course you're up to date with exactly what happened to Dylan, and you have your _interpretation _of quoted times. But you have to realize you are far from the majority.
> I had no idea his help left, his shop collapse etc etc. Is that a prerequisite to be able to order from him? And are you supposed then to not trust _his _word when _he _specifically quotes 30 months but instead build your own estimate in your head? Maybe you do that because you keep going into those builds, but you're the exception, not the rule.



I'm not talking about knowing these things at the time you place the order. The estimates were pretty accurate at the time they were given, but they were given with caveats that they should not be taken as concrete predictions of the future. They're given as numbers that may vary. In this case they varied and we know why they varied. I never implied anything about working out some truer estimate at the time of the deposit based on stalking him on social media, nor relevant to any of the builds I've done. Did he state up front that the time estimates were just a guide and may vary? Yes. Everything else is irrelevant. Any binding expectation the customer built up based on those times is imaginary. It's how English works.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

narad said:


> I'd like some proof of this queue skipping.



...and who is said youtuber?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> Again, I feel like you are unable to place yourselves in the shoes of anyone who's not yourself. Of course you know those things. Of course you're up to date with exactly what happened to Dylan, and you have your _interpretation _of quoted times. But you have to realize you are far from the majority.
> I had no idea his help left, his shop collapse etc etc. Is that a prerequisite to be able to order from him? And are you supposed then to not trust _his _word when _he _specifically quotes 30 months but instead build your own estimate in your head? Maybe you do that because you keep going into those builds, but you're the exception, not the rule.



Nothing about this concept is exclusive to guitars. It happens with knives, guns, machine parts, autobody work, suits, and pretty much anything. 

Whenever you pay for an item or service to be built/performed by a single person you are at the mercy of whatever life has in store for that person. 

The longer that time frame the bigger the risk of _something_ happening.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Nothing about this concept is exclusive to guitars. It happens with knives, guns, machine parts, autobody work, suits, and pretty much anything.
> 
> Whenever you pay for an item or service to be built/performed by a single person you are at the mercy of whatever life has in store for that person.
> 
> The longer that time frame the bigger the risk of _something_ happening.



Where did I say it was exclusive to guitars? I 100% agree with what you say here.
Anything custom, and it's always reasonable to build in _some _leeway in your expectations for unforeseen circumstances.
There is however a spectrum from "acceptable small delay" to "egregiously long delay" to "never receiving your stuff".
And any respectable consumer protection law would find that being over twice as long is not really on the side of "acceptable small delay".
Especially if the large delay is not an exception, but becomes business as usual. Same thing, all the arguments about caveat emptors, or "estimate is not a quote" or "an email is not a contract" or "it's vague and may vary" would not be receivable if there were to actually be any legal proceeding (again, unlikely and undesirable outcome, of course).
There are consumer protections in place- otherwise it would be too easy for people to just take non-refundable deposits and take advantage with no consequences.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mbardu said:


> otherwise it would be too easy for people to just take non-refundable deposits and take advantage with no consequences.



Tell that to the guys screwed by Roter, Brutalizer, Emperion, Siggery, Bernie Rico Jr., Saber, Vik, RAN, and the dozens of others who have gotten away scot-free. 

Consumer protection laws are there for a reason, but they're not perfect, and we've seen how limited they can be first hand.


----------



## narad

Yea, like Vik's in California/Texas now back to building guitars and there's still like half a dozen guys that he took money from and just ignores on social media. And the deposits are bigger than Daemoness ones. And that's been going on for like 6+ years.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Tell that to the guys screwed by Roter, Brutalizer, Emperion, Siggery, Bernie Rico Jr., Saber, Vik, RAN, and the dozens of others who have gotten away scot-free.
> 
> Consumer protection laws are there for a reason, but they're not perfect, and we've seen how limited they can be first hand.



Oh for sure, consumer protection is not going to solve everything. And it's often complicated by international borders, as well as by the fact that bankrupt companies or disappeared individuals are hard to squeeze money from. But the spirit of the laws is there for a reason. Just because you can get away with something doesn't make it right.

Again- I would leave the benefit of the doubt here, since I have not actually personally asked recently to see whether build times would be quoted at a realistic 5/6 years. Maybe they are. But if they're anything less, and even if he gets away with it, then it doesn't make it _any less unethical_ in my book.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Yea, like Vik's in California/Texas now back to building guitars and there's still like half a dozen guys that he took money from and just ignores on social media. And the deposits are bigger than Daemoness ones. And that's been going on for like 6+ years.



Sure but if we're down to the "but those guys did it first or worst" as the line of argument, then that doesn't shine great light on what you're defending either.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Sure but if we're down to the "but those guys did it first or worst" as the line of argument, then that doesn't shine great light on what you're defending either.



I'm not defending the behavior. I'm saying it's hard to get your money back, even when there is legitimate grievance. It really seems like every time I'm quoted you're putting this weird twist on everything.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I'm not defending the behavior. I'm saying it's hard to get your money back, even when there is legitimate grievance. It really seems like every time I'm quoted you're putting this weird twist on everything.



Well it's weird I have to repeat myself but OK.



narad said:


> They're given as numbers that may vary. In this case they varied and we know why they varied. I never implied anything about working out some truer estimate at the time of the deposit based on stalking him on social media, nor relevant to any of the builds I've done. Did he state up front that the time estimates were just a guide and may vary? Yes. Everything else is irrelevant. Any binding expectation the customer built up based on those times is imaginary. It's how English works.



Earlier on this very page your argument was that "it's only an estimate, and he said it may vary" to which I replied "this is not a justification, neither ethically, nor legally".

To which you reply "yeah but this may not give you your money back still, look at those other guys"...so my answer is just "OK, that happened, and happened worse before...still doesn't make it right".

That's it, that's my only point. If you still think that's good business practice, that's up to you. I don't expect to change your mind on that, and I wouldn't expect you to stop ordering from small independent builders since you have made it clear that you have a _very _high tolerance for shenanigans. That's perfectly fine TBH, and we get to see nice NGDs because of it.
Again, I was more talking in general, for people who are not the exception like you are.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Well it's weird I have to repeat myself but OK.
> 
> 
> 
> Earlier on this very page your argument was that "it's only an estimate, and he said it may vary" to which I replied "this is not a justification, neither ethically, nor legally".
> 
> To which you reply "yeah but this may not give you your money back still, look at those other guys"...so my answer is just "OK, that happened, and happened worse before...still doesn't make it right".
> 
> That's it, that's my only point. If you still think that's good business practice, that's up to you. I don't expect to change your mind on that, and I wouldn't expect you to stop ordering from small independent builders since you have made it clear that you have a _very _high tolerance for shenanigans. That's perfectly fine TBH, and we get to see nice NGDs because of it.
> Again, I was more talking in general, for people who are not the exception like you are.



I mean, do I think it's good business practice to say, "Previous builds tend to take about 3 years, but that doesn't mean yours will be", and then to exceed 3 years? Then yes, I think that's a totally fine business practice. I don't refer to that as "shenanigans". It's just life. You were warned. It only becomes a problem when you have customers that stop reading halfway through the sentence.

Whether you can get your money back or not is unrelated. I'm merely stating that it's difficult to get your money back in these situations, as illustrated previously. If you can't get the luthier to give you the money you're usually out of luck, even if that builder just continues on with life as usual, with a public presence, building for new people.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> I mean, do I think it's good business practice to say, "Previous builds tend to take about 3 years, but that doesn't mean yours will be", and then to exceed 3 years? Then yes, I think that's a totally fine business practice. I don't refer to that as "shenanigans". It's just life. You were warned. It only becomes a problem when you have customers that stop reading halfway through the sentence.



If a build today has an actual _realistic _quote (5/6 years) _with _the caveats you mentioned, that's fair.
My concern was just that I thought he was still quoting below 3 years, which would be absolutely unethical when he knows he hasn't started 2015/2016 builds.

Now where i say that you are more tolerant to "shenanigans" than other people, and I believe you are the exception, is that this is not black or white for most people.
In your case, it sounds like you'd be happy and wouldn't feel cheated if you received a 3-year quoted build after 4 years. You'd say it's just life. You'd still be happy to receive it after 6 years or maybe 10. Or maybe happy to never receive it and still be out your money. You do you.
But different people have different thresholds where,_ regardless of any caveat emptor or warning _(which again, are easy to make on the builder's end but are neither ethical nor legal pas a certain threshold), they'll start to feel cheated. For some people, it's exactly on the date of the quote (to those people I'd say, don't ever order anything ever). For some people it might be a year later. For some people it might be twice the quote. But most people have such a threshold. Maybe yours is +∞, but that's not the case of most.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> If a build today has an actual _realistic _quote (5/6 years) _with _the caveats you mentioned, that's fair.
> My concern was just that I thought he was still quoting below 3 years, which would be absolutely unethical when he knows he hasn't started 2015/2016 builds.
> 
> Now where i say that you are more tolerant to "shenanigans" than other people, and I believe you are the exception, is that this is not black or white for most people.
> In your case, it sounds like you'd be happy and wouldn't feel cheated if you received a 3-year quoted build after 4 years. You'd say it's just life. You'd still be happy to receive it after 6 years or maybe 10. Or maybe happy to never receive it and still be out your money. You do you.
> But different people have different thresholds where,_ regardless of any caveat emptor or warning _(which again, are easy to make on the builder's end but are neither ethical nor legal pas a certain threshold), they'll start to feel cheated. For some people, it's exactly on the date of the quote (to those people I'd say, don't ever order anything ever). For some people it might be a year later. For some people it might be twice the quote. But most people have such a threshold. Maybe yours is +∞, but that's not the case of most.



Of course I'm not happy to receive it far later than expected, but that was always part of the deal that I agreed to up front. In this case I would probably write the luthier and ask, "I know we didn't put any limitations on how long the build would take, but this is a lot longer than I had anticipated given how long your builds were taking at the time. Given that you haven't started the build yet, could I have my deposit refunded?" vs. "This is unacceptable. Here's how you should change your business to suit my timetable that we never actually agreed upon."

And I'm not sure what you're referring to as "not legal past a certain threshold". I've never seen any legal rule of thumb, "50% extra is okay, 75% illegal", etc.


----------



## SamSam

Flappydoodle said:


> I’m going this route right now. Yeah it’s expensive, but it WILL be delivered and there is no chance it looks like OPs guitar.



If ESP can build what you are after, awesome! I love my ESP, it is one of my favourite six string guitars. But if someone wants a build with the artistic flair that Dylan possesses, then ESP may not be able to deliver and if they can the cost will be comfortably into the 5 figure sum. And as incredibly intricate as certain ESP can be I have ever really seen them produce anything like Dylan's more popular pieces. More intricate? Absolutely, especially the woodwork, but the artist is the key component of what makes Daemoness.

I'll be frank, if I was an unhappy member of the Daemoness waiting list I would just cut my losses. £600 it not worth getting stressed about.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Really just now? Tell me that's because he was still saving up a little here and there to pay it off cause that guitar has been done for quite a while.



Something about having to negotiate a better rate with the courier service.


----------



## Blytheryn

Flappydoodle said:


> He’s building one for a Youtuber (who skipped the queue) right now.



Who’s the YouTuber, and how do you know that he skipped the queue?


----------



## Lorcan Ward

^earlier in the thread a poster said you can pay to get to the front of the queue(which isn’t true, this isn’t Blackmachine) and another said a YouTuber is jumping the queue but no proof or info. That said often a YouTuber will have more reach and marketing appeal than most metal artists. However Dylan said artist guitars were made on his own time and more as a labour of love to his favourite artists rather than pushing the brand. I can’t see why he would jump into YouTube marketing with such a full list and zero need so you can confidently call bulls**t on this claim. 



MaxOfMetal said:


> Tell that to the guys screwed by Roter, Brutalizer, Emperion, Siggery, Bernie Rico Jr., Saber, Vik, RAN, and the dozens of others who have gotten away scot-free.



When Christian Howes pulled a runner a number of customers were able to successfully sue him and get the full amount of their builds back, it was a long and stressful process process though. He did partial refunds also once more people piled on legal pressure but I’m not sure if there was any update since then. If you also believe in karma he certainly didn’t get away Scot-free for all the crap he pulled. 

Back to Daemoness. The number one thing right now is for someone to get in contact with Dylan so lines of communication can open again.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Very few builders will even make this sort of agreement with you. That's why Dylan's estimates these days are not provided in any contractually binding way


Again I don’t know how the law is working in tour contry, but in the UK, apart from the fact that the exchange of info and money is legaly binding and acts as a contract, there are consumer protection laws for cases like that and the products need to be delivered in reasonable time. So in theory it s the wild west but in practice it is not and as i said before it can end in tears.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Again I don’t know how the law is working in tour contry, but in the UK, apart from the fact that the exchange of info and money is legaly binding and acts as a contract, there are consumer protection laws for cases like that and the products need to be delivered in reasonable time. So in theory it s the wild west but in practice it is not and as i said before it can end in tears.



Can you point to some documentation of how "reasonable time" is legally defined?


----------



## mehegama

mbardu said:


> Seriously that's the argument? "If you order from this guy and he quotes you 30 months, you should know it's actually going to be 5/6 years, otherwise it's kinda your fault"? Isn't that getting to straight-up victim blaming?
> The kind that we easily accuse _other people_ of doing for way less egregious things when we're talking about other brands which we much more easily like to shit on around here ?
> 
> For instance- I do consider myself pretty well informed compared to the average guitar enthusiast.
> I may have been in a position to look at Daemoness about 18 months ago, when incidentally I was way less active on forums.
> 
> If I had been given a build time of 30 months, I may have assumed "OK i'll add 30/40% to that, it's not too bad", but instead adding 1/200% from what its' looking like nowadays?
> I don't see how that's acceptable at all. At this stage it's not just a missed estimate or a cute "it's a one man operation, let's cut him some slack", it's straight up lying. I get it, the guy is a darling of the forum and has done some pretty insane builds. But there are some serious double standards here.
> 
> Edit: Again that's been discussed in pages before "quote" or "estimate" are not meant to be exact. We all know that. But we're not talking a small difference here. Any reasonable person would see that. Nobody is forcing the builder to give those dates when they already know they're way unrealistic. The only reason to do so is dishonesty at this stage.


I would not have expressed myself better!


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I'd like some proof of this queue skipping.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not talking about knowing these things at the time you place the order. The estimates were pretty accurate at the time they were given, but they were given with caveats that they should not be taken as concrete predictions of the future. They're given as numbers that may vary. In this case they varied and we know why they varied. I never implied anything about working out some truer estimate at the time of the deposit based on stalking him on social media, nor relevant to any of the builds I've done. Did he state up front that the time estimates were just a guide and may vary? Yes. Everything else is irrelevant. Any binding expectation the customer built up based on those times is imaginary. It's how English works.


No they never were accurate. The latest NGD before this one was delivered in late 2019 and the order was put in mid 2014. Please be accurate with your facts. This thing has been going on forever


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Can you point to some documentation of how "reasonable time" is legally defined?


sumply google uk law conumer prrotection reasonable time. You can even find specific court cases. The point here is that it can go really badly for him.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> No they never were accurate. The latest NGD before this one was delivered in late 2019 and the order was put in mid 2014. Please be accurate with your facts. This thing has been going on forever



That's weird. I had 2 Daemonesses delivered in timeframes that were within a couple months of those estimates. How can... estimate never be right... when... estimate was... right... 



mehegama said:


> sumply google uk law conumer prrotection reasonable time. You can even find specific court cases. The point here is that it can go really badly for him.



I know how to google. I'm asking for clear comparable cases or definitions. I mean, you never know until you get in front of a judge, but I'm not seeing anything that looks very similar to this situation. I don't know how anything would end "really badly" for him when it's like, okay, I order you to give this guy 650 GBP back. 

Again, I wish you all the best luck in getting out of the queue so the rest of us can get our guitars faster. This thread has made me revisit my specs and finally settle on something I'm excited about.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> That's weird. I had 2 Daemonesses delivered in timeframes that were within a couple months of those estimates. How can... estimate never be right... when... estimate was... right...
> 
> 
> 
> I know how to google. I'm asking for clear comparable cases or definitions. I mean, you never know until you get in front of a judge, but I'm not seeing anything that looks very similar to this situation. I don't know how anything would end "really badly" for him when it's like, okay, I order you to give this guy 650 GBP back.
> 
> Again, I wish you all the best luck in getting out of the queue so the rest of us can get our guitars faster. This thread has made me revisit my specs and finally settle on something I'm excited about.



Check the previous NGD it s easy to find. Also check the post with the legal info few pages back it has all the info.

EDIT: Both the OP and the previous NGD (a green flamed Cimmerian put deposits in April/May 2014 and got their guitars in Aug/Oct 2019, so yeah his 30 months + 4-8 to build are not accurate since forever.

We do have completely opposite views on this matter, which is fair enough and let’s agree to disagree. You are not going to persuade me and neither will I. When he contacts me I ll decide what to do but i m not very optimistic on what i ll hear.


----------



## SamSam

mbardu said:


> I'm all for those Schecters and have a couple.
> But if OP can actually spring a bit more (his money, not ours), you _can_ get that little something extra special with a nice Suhr, Kiesel, TA etc etc. Or Mayo for that matter if that's his thing. It's just harder to try the latter in the US.





narad said:


> Can you point to some documentation of how "reasonable time" is legally defined?



I would imagine it would have to be determined based upon what is reasonable under the circumstances. Ie. what would the average person believe to be acceptable given the circumstances. I work primarily with criminal law and my experience with contract law is extremely limited, but I imagine it would be something along those lines.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

I rang Dylan this morning...no reply but he sent me a text shortly after saying he would call me later today so we will see.


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> I rang Dylan this morning...no reply but he sent me a text shortly after saying he would call me later today so we will see.


I would be grateful if you could also tell him (if possible of course) that there are people waiting to get replies. He has to address the situation


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> I would be grateful if you could also tell him (if possible of course) that there are people waiting to get replies. He has to address the situation



That's the main reason I rang him, to try and get some answers and find out what the current situation is. If anybody on the list has tried and failed to get in touch please feel free to PM me your name and I will do my best.


----------



## narad

IbanezDaemon said:


> I rang Dylan this morning...no reply but he sent me a text shortly after saying he would call me later today so we will see.



Please ask him which hashtag everyone should use for the shitstorm. I'm just going to throw out #lutherieinfernity


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, you'd have to be somewhat aware of the scene to even find out about Daemoness.
> 
> If you don't know who or what you're sending your money to, can you really claim no fault?
> 
> Besides all that, there seems to still be a misunderstanding of what "quote" and "estimate" mean. They are not synonyms for "promise" or "guarantee".



I dunno. People follow luthiers on Instagram. Daemoness went something like two years without even having a functioning website. It's all done by Instagram, Facebook and email. It's conceivable that people see stuff on Instagram and place orders without searching web forums etc.



narad said:


> I'd like some proof of this queue skipping.





M3CHK1LLA said:


> ...and who is said youtuber?





Lorcan Ward said:


> ^earlier in the thread a poster said you can pay to get to the front of the queue(which isn’t true, this isn’t Blackmachine) and another said a YouTuber is jumping the queue but no proof or info. That said often a YouTuber will have more reach and marketing appeal than most metal artists. However Dylan said artist guitars were made on his own time and more as a labour of love to his favourite artists rather than pushing the brand. I can’t see why he would jump into YouTube marketing with such a full list and zero need so you can confidently call bulls**t on this claim.



I'd place ~90% confidence in my claim that yes, you can queue skip.

I appreciate I'm asking you to take my word for it since I can't really "prove" it, other than I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. The UK metal luthier and youtuber scene is pretty small, so if a UK metal-oriented youtuber posts a new Daemoness... you'll probably figure it out.

I don't think my "source" would have any reason to lie, but I also don't want to start some sort of "callout" drama or hurt my "source".

Hell, the fact there are so many artist guitars tells you that it isn't "first come, first served". You really think Jari put down a deposit in 2014 like the rest of us plebs? And yes @Lorcan Ward I've heard Dylan say it was his own personal time etc... but do you really believe that building a whole bunch of extra guitars had ZERO impact on the regular build queue? I am sceptical.

I agree that making guitars for Youtubers is illogical when you have a 5 year build queue already. But, you are forgetting Dylan's ego... he does quite enjoy shitting on other luthiers.


----------



## Flappydoodle

mehegama said:


> When he contacts me I ll decide what to do but i m not very optimistic on what i ll hear.



I'm taking this view too with my deposit. Problem is, you've paid your £650 but that's not the end of it. You'll be asked to pay another £1,000+ before your build starts, but which may still be a few years before it is completed. Even the final payment can still be a year before the guitar ships (like OP).

I'm ok with losing £650, but I would feel pretty stupid to throw more money in without some better communication of expectations. If it was communicated "yes I'm behind, I'm taking XYZ steps to address it, and the expected date is XX/XX/XXXX" with some openness and honesty, then I'd be ok with it. But if the radio silence continues, there's no reason to throw good money after bad IMO.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> I dunno. People follow luthiers on Instagram. Daemoness went something like two years without even having a functioning website. It's all done by Instagram, Facebook and email. It's conceivable that people see stuff on Instagram and place orders without searching web forums etc.



Who doesn't do at least a first page Google of the business you're entering into a years long, multi-thousand dollar deal with?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Flappydoodle said:


> I dunno. People follow luthiers on Instagram. Daemoness went something like two years without even having a functioning website. It's all done by Instagram, Facebook and email. It's conceivable that people see stuff on Instagram and place orders without searching web forums etc.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd place ~90% confidence in my claim that yes, you can queue skip.
> 
> I appreciate I'm asking you to take my word for it since I can't really "prove" it, other than I know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy. The UK metal luthier and youtuber scene is pretty small, so if a UK metal-oriented youtuber posts a new Daemoness... you'll probably figure it out.
> 
> I don't think my "source" would have any reason to lie, but I also don't want to start some sort of "callout" drama or hurt my "source".
> 
> Hell, the fact there are so many artist guitars tells you that it isn't "first come, first served". You really think Jari put down a deposit in 2014 like the rest of us plebs? And yes @Lorcan Ward I've heard Dylan say it was his own personal time etc... but do you really believe that building a whole bunch of extra guitars had ZERO impact on the regular build queue? I am sceptical.
> 
> I agree that making guitars for Youtubers is illogical when you have a 5 year build queue already. But, you are forgetting Dylan's ego... he does quite enjoy shitting on other luthiers.


If you're talking about Joss' Homunculus build, that's been sitting around in Dylan's shop for years. I believe it was a personal build of Dylan's iirc.
The queue skipping by artists is bullshit, but that's pretty typical of a lot of these custom shops.


----------



## Flappydoodle

KnightBrolaire said:


> If you're talking about Joss' Homunculus build, that's been sitting around in Dylan's shop for years. I believe it was a personal build of Dylan's iirc.
> The queue skipping by artists is bullshit, but that's pretty typical of a lot of these custom shops.



I know the one, and it isn't that one


----------



## Lorcan Ward

@Flappydoodle You have to read back your post and understand that "a claim from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy" is not very believable but if it happens then it happens and I'll admit I'm wrong but after going through the Daemoness build queue and knowing Dylan I'd confidently say thats not true. Now unless this is a good friend of Dylan's then that would make sense. A lot of builders get favours and investment at the start from their friends with the promise of a build in the future when everything is going smooth. For some its even how they partially pay for their hardware. 

I know that you can't queue jump because more than a few people have messaged me annoyed the they couldn't jump, one even tried to persuade me to sell him my spot to jump the queue. For some custom builds people "secretly" buy someone's spot and just communicate the specs and money through them. Now unless something has drastically changed since I ordered you can't queue jump or buy other people's spot.



Flappydoodle said:


> I'm ok with losing £650, but I would feel pretty stupid to throw more money in without some better communication of expectations. If it was communicated "yes I'm behind, I'm taking XYZ steps to address it, and the expected date is XX/XX/XXXX" with some openness and honesty, then I'd be ok with it. But if the radio silence continues, there's no reason to throw good money after bad IMO.



I walked away on a build deposit similar to that amount. The luthier was a nightmare to work with and I didn't want to ever deal with him again so it was the price of walking away. Honestly I don't even think about it and forgot about it until this thread re-surfaced.


----------



## mehegama

Flappydoodle said:


> I'm taking this view too with my deposit. Problem is, you've paid your £650 but that's not the end of it. You'll be asked to pay another £1,000+ before your build starts, but which may still be a few years before it is completed. Even the final payment can still be a year before the guitar ships (like OP).
> 
> I'm ok with losing £650, but I would feel pretty stupid to throw more money in without some better communication of expectations. If it was communicated "yes I'm behind, I'm taking XYZ steps to address it, and the expected date is XX/XX/XXXX" with some openness and honesty, then I'd be ok with it. But if the radio silence continues, there's no reason to throw good money after bad IMO.


Exactly. I would like to hear a date before I put any money. Because another patern here is he may get more money out to buy the woods etc and then take another 2-3 years to deliver the guitars. There are testimonies where the guitar just needed electronics and it was sitting for a year with no work on it.
And this is the issue. After all this crap we discuss and speculate due to him gettin ex communicated, I m really hesitant to give him more money unless i have some kind of hard deadline or guarantee. And let’s be real, I m not going to get it.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Flappydoodle said:


> I know the one, and it isn't that one


well since you're already stirring the pot, just point me towards this youtuber's channel. I didn't see any recent vids featuring Daemoness except from Joss.


----------



## mehegama

Lorcan Ward said:


> I walked away on a build deposit similar to that amount. The luthier was a nightmare to work with and I didn't want to ever deal with him again so it was the price of walking away. Honestly I don't even think about it and forgot about it until this thread re-surfaced.


Can you please elaborate on the issue and also name him so we don't have issues like the one we are currently discussing?


----------



## Flappydoodle

Lorcan Ward said:


> @Flappydoodle You have to read back your post and understand that "a claim from a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy" is not very believable but if it happens then it happens and I'll admit I'm wrong but after going through the Daemoness build queue and knowing Dylan I'd confidently say thats not true. Now unless this is a good friend of Dylan's then that would make sense. A lot of builders get favours and investment at the start from their friends with the promise of a build in the future when everything is going smooth. For some its even how they partially pay for their hardware.
> 
> I know that you can't queue jump because more than a few people have messaged me annoyed the they couldn't jump, one even tried to persuade me to sell him my spot to jump the queue. For some custom builds people "secretly" buy someone's spot and just communicate the specs and money through them. Now unless something has drastically changed since I ordered you can't queue jump or buy other people's spot.



Sure, your position is totally fair and I can't really offer you anything as proof. I also agree that I don't think you can buy your way to the front of the queue with cash. The story I've heard is that guy X was offered endorsement or guitar by brand Y and he mentioned it to Dylan. Dylan says something like "I'll make you something better" - thus the queue-jumping.



> I walked away on a build deposit similar to that amount. The luthier was a nightmare to work with and I didn't want to ever deal with him again so it was the price of walking away. Honestly I don't even think about it and forgot about it until this thread re-surfaced.



Luckily I assume it will be a while until I'm in the position to have to decide. And hopefully by then we'll have a clear answer one way or the other. I still love what Daemoness does. He's produced some really, really sick stuff, and I hope he can overcome whatever problems are in the way right now. Hopefully OPs terrible NGD and any resulting backlash from this thread (which must have surely worked its way to Dylan by now) will spur him to improve things.



mehegama said:


> Exactly. I would like to hear a date before I put any money. Because another patern here is he may get more money out to buy the woods etc and then take another 2-3 years to deliver the guitars. There are testimonies where the guitar just needed electronics and it was sitting for a year with no work on it.
> And this is the issue. After all this crap we discuss and speculate due to him gettin ex communicated, I m really hesitant to give him more money unless i have some kind of hard deadline or guarantee. And let’s be real, I m not going to get it.



I'm still optimistically hoping for a turnaround. I don't think Dylan is a good "business person" and he definitely hates the social media, customer relations side of things. His organisation and planning also seems pretty poor to me. But I also think he's a good guy, not out to rip people off, and that should hopefully prompt him to do what needs to be done to fix the current situation.



KnightBrolaire said:


> well since you're already stirring the pot, just point me towards this youtuber's channel. I didn't see any recent vids featuring Daemoness except from Joss.



I'm trying very hard not to "stir the pot" any more than necessary. This is what I've *heard* only, though I do believe it, and the artist builds do seem to support what I'm saying. Of course, only Dylan really knows the build queue and whether the artist builds actually take time away from the general build queue. And you can't expect a truthful answer from him - so basically this is all just speculation.

I don't want to name names though because calling somebody out would likely create drama etc.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Well I've just got off the phone with Dylan after a 45 minute conversation so I have some info for you guys.

1: He is going to make a statement on here to let you know where things are at. That should be in the next 7 days and he will then be asking anyone with queries to get in touch with him again.

2: The whole thing with Barnes leaving has put him on the back foot and as Barnes dealt with the taking orders side Dylan is not fully aware of every single build on the list and how complex each build might be. He is of course still working flat out and 4 more builds will be shipped out this week.

3: He would like to get more hands on board but says he cannot find anyone in his area who has the skill set needed and past employees have not worked out as planned.

4: He is not taking on new work at the time in an effort to catch up. He is also thinking that sometime in the future when all the custom stuff has been completed it might be better for him to do stock builds only....I stress that's something that may happen but nothing set in stone.

Hope this info is of some use to you guys with concerns. I think that statement will be in the Daemoness thread in the Dealars and Group Buys section when it is posted.


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> Well I've just got off the phone with Dylan after a 45 minute conversation so I have some info for you guys.
> 
> 1: He is going to make a statement on here to let you know where things are at. That should be in the next 7 days and he will then be asking anyone with queries to get in touch with him again.
> 
> 2: The whole thing with Barnes leaving has put him on the back foot and as Barnes dealt with the taking orders side Dylan is not fully aware of every single build on the list and how complex each build might be. He is of course still working flat out and 4 more builds will be shipped out this week.
> 
> 3: He would like to get more hands on board but says he cannot find anyone in his area who has the skill set needed and past employees have not worked out as planned.
> 
> 4: He is not taking on new work at the time in an effort to catch up. He is also thinking that sometime in the future when all the custom stuff has been completed it might be better for him to do stock builds only....I stress that's something that may happen but nothing set in stone.
> 
> Hope this info is of some use to you guys with concerns. I think that statement will be in the Daemoness thread in the Dealars and Group Buys section when it is posted.


That s good to hear. Thanks for passing to him the concerns. I hope he gives an honest assessment of the situation and some real and accurate estimations on the builds.


----------



## mastapimp

narad said:


> Please ask him which hashtag everyone should use for the shitstorm. I'm just going to throw out #lutherieinfernity


#daemonmess


----------



## Sermo Lupi

MaxOfMetal said:


> Tell that to the guys screwed by Roter, Brutalizer, Emperion, Siggery, Bernie Rico Jr., Saber, Vik, RAN, and the dozens of others who have gotten away scot-free.
> 
> Consumer protection laws are there for a reason, but they're not perfect, and we've seen how limited they can be first hand.





narad said:


> Can you point to some documentation of how "reasonable time" is legally defined?



Most people never try to sue though, nor should anyone try to sue Dylan in my opinion, but I digress. Voluntarily cutting losses isn't the same as having no legal recourse, it's just that cutting loses is often in your best interest.

To answer Narad's question, 'reasonable' has a specific legal usage that is somewhat open to interpretation. I would not infer any protections from not having signed a contract, etc. 

As for where you can find legal precedents, there's a few different places. Some of the bigger cases can be found on the Courts and Judiciary website. You can isolate by jurisdiction (civil, commercial, etc.) and court tier (county, tribunal, appeals, etc.). You probably won't find anything relevant on there, however. After doing some searching it appears that small claims judgments are recorded in the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines (which you have to pay to search), and the judgments are only recorded if they remain unpaid for thirty days after being handed down. 

In any case, don't assume similar cases aren't handled by the courts on a regular basis just because you can't find anything in a google search. 





IbanezDaemon said:


> 4: He is not taking on new work at the time in an effort to catch up. He is also thinking that sometime in the future when all the custom stuff has been completed it might be better for him to do stock builds only....I stress that's something that may happen but nothing set in stone.
> 
> Hope this info is of some use to you guys with concerns. I think that statement will be in the Daemoness thread in the Dealars and Group Buys section when it is posted.



This is great news. Good on Dylan for staying on top of his work and for making an effort to address the situation. 

As for the new policy on in-stocks (or perhaps in-stocks only in the future), I'm not above saying 'I told you so!'

Cheers for the update.


----------



## mbardu

Indeed, thanks for the update!


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> That s good to hear. Thanks for passing to him the concerns. I hope he gives an honest assessment of the situation and some real and accurate estimations on the builds.



I hope you guys get some more idea of the wait time soon. I suggested that he ditch the 30 month estimation and due to the complexity of some of the stuff he is working on at the minute he agreed that is is not realistic at this time.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

@Sermo Lupi 

On the subject of stock builds, he told me that he is working on a guitar at the minute that is so complex he could make 2 or 3 stock guitars in the same time as is required to do the artwork/inlay on that one with all the planning and sketching etc that is going into it.


----------



## narad

IbanezDaemon said:


> @Sermo Lupi
> 
> On the subject of stock builds, he told me that he is working on a guitar at the minute that is so complex he could make 2 or 3 stock guitars in the same time as is required to do the artwork/inlay on that one with all the planning and sketching etc that is going into it.



At the same time, what is Daemoness without fancy artwork? Hopefully this doesn't impact my upcoming build as I would really like to get a fancy body painting one after going with a simpler spec with my last one. I had to wait for the Phoenix one to inspire me.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

narad said:


> At the same time, what is Daemoness without fancy artwork? Hopefully this doesn't impact my upcoming build as I would really like to get a fancy body painting one after going with a simpler spec with my last one. I had to wait for the Phoenix one to inspire me.



Your's won't be affected I reckon. I'm sure he alluded to stock builds as ideas he comes up with in his head without the need of planning an inlay or artwork and going back and forth with a customer to make sure it is what they want. I think his 'stock' builds will feature his own ideas and artwork on some of them at least.


----------



## Blytheryn

mastapimp said:


> #daemonmess



This is actually brilliant.


----------



## jjcor

IbanezDaemon said:


> @Sermo Lupi
> 
> On the subject of stock builds, he told me that he is working on a guitar at the minute that is so complex he could make 2 or 3 stock guitars in the same time as is required to do the artwork/inlay on that one with all the planning and sketching etc that is going into it.



He is probably referring to mine. We went all out with the artwork and inlays on it. He even did some studying up (Went to a museum to see his paintings up close) on an artist that I wanted him to use as inspiration for the artwork. Hopefully I will have a NGD soon.....ish.


----------



## Blytheryn

jjcor said:


> He is probably referring to mine. We went all out with the artwork and inlays on it. He even did some studying up (Went to a museum to see his paintings up close) on an artist that I wanted him to use as inspiration for the artwork. Hopefully I will have a NGD soon.....ish.



This is exactly why people go for a Daemoness, and not ESP or... 




Kiesel.

I honestly didn’t feel comfortable putting them in the same sentence.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

jjcor said:


> He is probably referring to mine. We went all out with the artwork and inlays on it. He even did some studying up (Went to a museum to see his paintings up close) on an artist that I wanted him to use as inspiration for the artwork. Hopefully I will have a NGD soon.....ish.



Can't wait to see it, the guy's artwork is on another level and if he's sinking that much time into it it's gotta be breathtaking.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

IbanezDaemon said:


> @Sermo Lupi
> 
> On the subject of stock builds, he told me that he is working on a guitar at the minute that is so complex he could make 2 or 3 stock guitars in the same time as is required to do the artwork/inlay on that one with all the planning and sketching etc that is going into it.



Ah, man. To be in that customer's position. Lucky! 

In my mind, stock builds wouldn't necessarily require the guitars to be any simpler. Most would be. But he could still do a small number per year that are very elaborate like a custom build, except that he pursues his own concepts and themes instead of the buyer's.


----------



## Blytheryn

Sermo Lupi said:


> Ah, man. To be in that customer's position. Lucky!
> 
> In my mind, stock builds wouldn't necessarily require the guitars to be any simpler. Most would be. But he could still do a small number per year that are very elaborate like a custom build, except that he pursues his own concepts and themes instead of the buyer's.



This is a great idea for so many reasons. Only Dylan knows the limits of his skills, and while he pushes them regularly, if he’s 100% behind each build the workflow will be much more fluent.

He can either roll out batches or single guitars at a time, and he can make shapes that people don’t order too frequently, and they’ll always sell. I haven’t seen a Daemoness be up for grabs longer than 24 hours. I’d love to see more Valkenbyrds and Hadians.

Dylan’s literally a library of themes. Him going full untapped is when the best ideas come forth. I’d be confident in ordering a full mystery build from him, as long as the guitar had 6 strings.


----------



## mbardu

Blytheryn said:


> This is exactly why people go for a Daemoness, and not ESP or...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kiesel.
> 
> I honestly didn’t feel comfortable putting them in the same sentence.



Yeah Kiesel was not really the brand to bring into the comparison here in the first place. Although they will give you a high-quality instrument to your specs within schedule (and one that incidentally will play at least as well as a Daemoness, and will probably be finished better than the guitar in this thread)...the comparison ends there.

They're not artists and there's no way they would create one-off intricate pieces like you see from Daemoness.
Nobody would even think of picking up the phone and asking Kiesel to build something of that artistic caliber.

The only thing that intrigues me is the other way around, people who are not really fixated on the Daemoness shapes, do not take advantage of Dylan's skills, and just have him build a basic black Ibanez... Why spend that much and wait that long for something that may end up with finish flaws ... it boggles the mind.


----------



## StevenC

mbardu said:


> and will probably be finished better than the guitar in this thread


Idk, at least this is guitar was the right colour


----------



## Ataraxia2320

IbanezDaemon, you the real mvp.


----------



## Samark

Thanks Paul. Hope Dylan is going ok, super tough times. Tell him to keep his head up and we are looking forward to our builds


----------



## IbanezDaemon

@Ataraxia2320 Lol! Cheers. Been trying to get in touch for a few weeks actually so today I finally got a reply. I forgot to ask about the status of my own builds as well...ah well....maybe next time.

@Samark Will do. Should hear from him in the next week or so with any luck.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Are we finally transitioning past the "Used Prestige" meme, and moving into a new era of "Just try a Kiesel"?

 I think we are.


----------



## Forkface

IbanezDaemon is the beacon of light we all need during these times of uncertainty.
what a goddamn champ.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Forkface said:


> IbanezDaemon is the beacon of light we all need during these times of uncertainty.
> what a goddamn champ.



Very kind of you but really it was no biggie. I have his mobile number just so wanted to get some info for the guys which I did...eventually. I wouldn't have all that much contact with Dylan these days ...used to be a lot more but that's understandable as he wants to get things back on track quickly.


----------



## Steinmetzify

Jonathan20022 said:


> Are we finally transitioning past the "Used Prestige" meme, and moving into a new era of "Just try a Kiesel"?
> 
> I think we are.



We are fucking NOT


----------



## Geisterfaust

IbanezDaemon said:


> Well I've just got off the phone with Dylan after a 45 minute conversation so I have some info for you guys.
> 
> 2: The whole thing with Barnes leaving has put him on the back foot and as Barnes dealt with the taking orders side Dylan is not fully aware of every single build on the list and how complex each build might be. He is of course still working flat out and 4 more builds will be shipped out this week.



Thanks for getting these answers for us. This note concerns me. Has he lost track of prior deposits?


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Geisterfaust said:


> Thanks for getting these answers for us. This note concerns me. Has he lost track of prior deposits?



No. Barnes dealt with all the incoming orders. Dylan is just not aware of everything and the specs which have been submitted
on the build list and there would be a lot of guitars on that. It's something that he will have to work through eventually of course.


----------



## Geisterfaust

IbanezDaemon said:


> No. Barnes dealt with all the incoming orders. Dylan is just not aware of everything and the specs which have been submitted
> on the build list and there would be a lot of guitars on that. It's something that he will have to work through eventually of course.



Good deal. Put in my deposit 2017 and looking forward to getting a Hadean at some point. Hate to hear that Barnes left.


----------



## mehegama

Geisterfaust said:


> Good deal. Put in my deposit 2017 and looking forward to getting a Hadean at some point. Hate to hear that Barnes left.


has you build started yet?


----------



## Geisterfaust

mehegama said:


> has you build started yet?



Not yet.


----------



## mehegama

Geisterfaust said:


> Not yet.


So you when exactly did you put the deposit? Seems that you are one of the guys the well passed the 30 months mark.


----------



## Geisterfaust

mehegama said:


> So you when exactly did you put the deposit? Seems that you are one of the guys the well passed the 30 months mark.


May of 2017. I'm sure I'm still a little ways out.


----------



## mehegama

Geisterfaust said:


> May of 2017. I'm sure I'm still a little ways out.


Yep, he needs to address a lot of cases like yours. Let's see what he has to say.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> Yep, he needs to address a lot of cases like yours. Let's see what he has to say.



I’m January of ‘16. Just sit tight.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> I’m January of ‘16. Just sit tight.


but your build has started right?


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> but your build has started right?



Nope.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Nope.


oh boy.. I thought he has been working on early 2016 builds but the situation is probably worse. I m not very optimistic but i m really waiting to hear how he plans to mitigate the issues.
Funny thing is that at 15 months Barnes told me you are right in the middle of the wait time...


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> oh boy.. I thought he has been working on early 2016 builds but the situation is probably worse. I m not very optimistic but i m really waiting to hear how he plans to mitigate the issues.
> Funny thing is that at 15 months Barnes told me you are right in the middle of the wait time...



Yeah, I’m thinking it will get started soon. If not who cares. I’ve got other guitars in the meantime.

I’m sure you’ll know how to best proceed soon.


----------



## Geisterfaust

Blytheryn said:


> Yeah, I’m thinking it will get started soon. If not who cares. I’ve got other guitars in the meantime.



I'm in the same boat. I've got other guitars. The timeline and deposit haven't really prevented me from buying and selling gear. I've been on other builds that took much longer than the quoted time, had more substantial deposits, and had higher end prices. Not making excuses for the process, but I've kind of attributed to the instrument market. 

I took Barnes' estimated timeline with a grain of salt. For the price point, I figured the timeline was going to shift drastically. Hopefully, there's a payoff to the patience.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Edit: Mistake


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> Basically, as its pretty much been figured out, the problem from the beginning for alot us and what has been causing confusion is a lack of transparency with the actual build process here. There was a youtuber who back in 2014, reviewed a Daemoness and said 'I don't know if anything is worth waiting 5 years for'. Basically even back then, the time was about 5 years or so. The real time that is. But, as most of us did, we inquired first about the build time and got a different quote.
> 
> Here's the thing: If any luthier were to tell just about anyone, yet I'm not going to say everyone, that you'd be waiting a good bit over half a decade to receive your custom order, the amount of deposits to begin a build would be nada. So what's a builder supposed to do? Granted, I'm not condoning in any way that its ok to lead a potential customer on in some way. Or that Dylan hasn't actually attempted to remedy this problem some way. But its just not the way to be doing things as it will ultimately come back to bite you in some manner.
> 
> That being said, its pretty cool if you can get a guitar made by just one set of hands. Its just going to take a while when that one set begins to receive too much demand. And that's apparently where the Daemoness shop has been at for quite a while.
> 
> Now that the smoke has cleared, I'm prepared to hang in till the end. Never waited though so long for a product of any type that was ordered quite like this though, lol. Oh well.



Now that's a bit depressing to read.

It's one thing to say that the people who are really 100% motivated to wait 5/6/7? years and 100% following social media and actual build times have no issues with the process. It's something else altogether to say that for the sake of those few well informed people, then the only way for the builder to make do is to literally lie to the face of his _other _customers (who may not know about all recent builds, or not follow 100% of social media) about expected build times.

I was leaving the benefit of the doubt earlier but it sounds like the 5 years+ timeframe vs much shorter estimates has been there for literally _years, _before there were ever excuses around losing help or Covid etc etc. So any quote at 30 months has been in bad faith, and a blatant lie for a while now?

_"If any luthier were to tell just about anyone, yet I'm not going to say everyone, that you'd be waiting a good bit over half a decade to receive your custom order, the amount of deposits to begin a build would be nada"_ => the nada is not guaranteed at all, and regardless, honesty is still clearly better than lying as a core principle of your business model.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Now that's a bit depressing to read.
> 
> It's one thing to say that the people who are really 100% motivated to wait 5/6/7? years and 100% following social media and actual build times have no issues with the process. It's something else altogether to say that for the sake of those few well informed people, then the only way for the builder to make do is to literally lie to the face of his _other _customers (who may not know about all recent builds, or not follow 100% of social media) about expected build times.
> 
> I was leaving the benefit of the doubt earlier but it sounds like the 5 years+ timeframe vs much shorter estimates has been there for literally _years, _before there were ever excuses around losing help or Covid etc etc. So any quote at 30 months has been in bad faith, and a blatant lie for a while now?
> 
> _"If any luthier were to tell just about anyone, yet I'm not going to say everyone, that you'd be waiting a good bit over half a decade to receive your custom order, the amount of deposits to begin a build would be nada"_ => the nada is not guaranteed at all, and regardless, honesty is still clearly better than lying as a core principle of your business model.



FWIW, my build delivered March of 2014 was done within 3 years, and was actually ahead of schedule in terms of what the estimate covers (i.e., time to wait until the build commences). My previous build was done in half that, but the body was already done when I jumped in. So that's just fact. Either I'm an outlier, or estimates given for builds delivered prior to 2014 were pretty accurate.

In fact, those estimates actually contain a bit of slack with respect to how long things were taking previously -at-that-time-. I think obviously there was some optimism in keeping estimates as they were as the queue grew, but one would likely have:
-- hey, just hired a new apprentice, he should be making dividends in a year or two
-- hey, just hired Barnes, now the huge amount of CS time is eliminated. 
-- hey, got these templates and jigs setup, things are getting optimized, etc. 

So if you were doing 3.5 year builds AND then improved all those things, you don't think it's reasonable to assume the estimates will remain fairly accurate? And note the first points of feedback on whether that is accurate start showing up around 2016/2017, and there were a number of mitigating circumstances in that range. That seems to be roughly when Barnes popped on the scene, so you imagine that would speed things up and push things back in the right direction some. And then you don't get feedback on whether that really makes a difference until 2018-2019.

If you put yourself in Dylan's shoes, there's a lot of reason to think that efficiency was going to improve. It didn't pan out that way -- all of those things disappeared, the finish guy died, and then the workshop was collapsing as well. I'm not even talking about covid, but certainly that's not going to make things better. 

So yea, just seems really in poor taste to assume the guy is a deceitful lying swindler, when you actually look at the steps taken to address build times and the challenges that presented themselves. I know cancel culture is really "in" right now but man, it makes me happy to not be a luthier to not have to deal with these attitudes.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> FWIW, my build delivered March of 2014 was done within 3 years, and was actually ahead of schedule in terms of what the estimate covers (i.e., time to wait until the build commences). My previous build was done in half that, but the body was already done when I jumped in. So that's just fact. Either I'm an outlier, or estimates given for builds delivered prior to 2014 were pretty accurate.
> 
> In fact, those estimates actually contain a bit of slack with respect to how long things were taking previously -at-that-time-. I think obviously there was some optimism in keeping estimates as they were as the queue grew, but one would likely have:
> -- hey, just hired a new apprentice, he should be making dividends in a year or two
> -- hey, just hired Barnes, now the huge amount of CS time is eliminated.
> -- hey, got these templates and jigs setup, things are getting optimized, etc.
> 
> So if you were doing 3.5 year builds AND then improved all those things, you don't think it's reasonable to assume the estimates will remain fairly accurate? And note the first points of feedback on whether that is accurate start showing up around 2016/2017, and there were a number of mitigating circumstances in that range. That seems to be roughly when Barnes popped on the scene, so you imagine that would speed things up and push things back in the right direction some. And then you don't get feedback on whether that really makes a difference until 2018-2019.
> 
> If you put yourself in Dylan's shoes, there's a lot of reason to think that efficiency was going to improve. It didn't pan out that way -- all of those things disappeared, the finish guy died, and then the workshop was collapsing as well. I'm not even talking about covid, but certainly that's not going to make things better.
> 
> So yea, just seems really in poor taste to assume the guy is a deceitful lying swindler, when you actually look at the steps taken to address build times and the challenges that presented themselves. I know cancel culture is really "in" right now but man, it makes me happy to not be a luthier to not have to deal with these attitudes.



I guess you're going to continue to defend that side of the coin and truly, I get it- it makes sense in your mindset. You are the exact example of the client who knows what's up and willing to wait _almost _forever _and _cut slack to the builders (see: the above).
But again, for every buyer in your shoes, there are probably others who did not expect that. Who do not know the details that you are talking about. Who were given an estimate that was clearly not something that they should have been given.

You say the feedback started in 2016/2017, the guy above is referencing 2014 as already in the "5 years range", so clearly not everyone agrees there.
You give a lot of reasons to empathize with the builder and why he got delayed, but if as a business owner you see that you are consistently late, then the reasonable thing is to adjust the quotes you give. Best case scenario, if you manage to improve things, then that's great. You underpromise and overdeliver.

The "honesty" test has not changed for me.
If he made estimates in good faith at the time and then apologized when he got waaaayy delayed then that's one thing. If he keeps quoting the same ballpark after years of the builds actually being in the 5+ years range, it stops being in good faith.

Finally, it's nothing personal, or "cancel culture" or anything of the sort. Maybe _you _wouldn't have an issue waiting 6 years on a 30 months estimate (and that's not even what happened to you since you said you got your builds super fast...), but because you like the builder, you absolutely fail to even acknowledge that this could be problematic to someone who's not in your same exact shoes. I'm not saying "cancel the guy". He clearly does amazing unique stuff and caters to a given niche. Hell, when I have some money burning a hole in my pocket, that might be tempting.
But in the meantime, it's no reason not to be upfront with your customers as you accumulate literally years and years of non-refundable deposits.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mbardu said:


> You say the feedback started in 2016/2017, the guy above is referencing 2014 as already in the "5 years range", so clearly not everyone agrees there.



Wait hold on, I gotta confess a research mistake I made here. I checked the video again, and the guy said the wait was like 2 years in that 2014 vid. Muh bad, too much talk about wait times and what not and its getting confusing....

Sorry folks.


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> Wait hold on, I gotta confess a research mistake I made here. I checked the video again, and the guy said the wait was like 2 years in that 2014 vid. Muh bad, too much talk about wait times and what not and its getting confusing....
> 
> Sorry folks.



Whelp OK then, that's a totally different story .
Disregard what I said then.


----------



## Jonathan20022

This is where I see Max's point from earlier. There should be an expectation provided from the builder but you can't hover over their works and harass them over a few months delay. Especially amidst the pandemic which has slowed/halted general operations across most industries.

I'm a February 2017 Deposit, which would mean I'm at the 41 month mark at this point. I haven't been contacted for spec clarification or any final decision making for my guitar but since he's working on 2016 instruments and delivering them I'm expecting to be in somewhere near the next batch.

I'm in camp, "don't really care will get it eventually". I'm also pretty understanding because knowing that there were delays with builds from his shop being destroyed, the death of a colleague and a vital part of the process, as well as the pandemic naturally pushes the timeline back. The communication should certainly be better, but there are always going to be harsh realities you must accept when ordering a commission to a one off builder of anything.

And I'll hold my original point, if a deposit of $700ish is a lot of money to lose, then you should probably pass on the custom order. That's certainly not an excuse, but I also don't want someone to take my timeline and try to rationalize why I should or shouldn't be upset about the wait time. I only realized it was that long after counting the months and checking when I put down the money. As well as my point earlier about the estimates, they should definitely reflect the current status of the queue as well as any impacts to lengthen or shorten that time. Not for us, the current deposit holders IN the queue, but for new clients who need clarification before putting money down.

There is certainly an expectation to receive the guitar, and it'll definitely happen eventually. The process of the build and the timeline should definitely be more transparent and from IbanezDaemon's comment a few pages back Dylan agrees since there is some correspondence coming along with an update from him.


----------



## mehegama

mbardu said:


> Whelp OK then, that's a totally different story .
> Disregard what I said then.


The issue of 5+years started at least from 2014. You can check the green flamed maple Cimmerian NGD here. We have confirmations that there are people from early 2016 that their builds have not started yet. Some people might be ok with it and I understand. But presenting it as some kind of normality it s not ok with me.
I admit I did not know these things when I put my deposit. I knew it would take about 3 years in total and I was ok with it. I was told by Barnes that at 15 months i was at the middle of the wait time (which obviously was a lie, so did he purposely deceive me?) and had I knew all this, i would have never put money in.
I personally do not accept that there is some kind of unwritten immunity to luthiers to take their time just because. If you don't have enough time then do not take orders. And that is fair for everyone.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I personally do not accept that there is some kind of unwritten immunity to luthiers to take their time just because. If you don't have enough time then do not take orders. And that is fair for everyone.



Or tell people that previous guitars have taken roughly X amount of time, but that it's no guarantee that your guitar will take that much time, and could in fact take much longer.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Or tell people that previous guitars have taken roughly X amount of time, but that it's no guarantee that your guitar will take that much time, and could in fact take much longer.


I agree. He needs to say something like "Due to the complexity of the builds and the big number of existing orders we cannot guarantee any timeline". And that's actually a fair representation of the Daemoness reality today.
But he did not do that. He still has the 30 months on his site, he did quoted these numbers to me (30 + 4 to 8 for the build) in order to put my money and he kept taking more orders (the latest confirmed is late oct 2019)


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> I agree. He needs to say something like "Due to the complexity of the builds and the big number of existing orders we cannot guarantee any timeline". And that's actually a fair representation of the Daemoness reality today.
> But he did not do that. He still has the 30 months on his site, he did quoted these numbers to me (30 + 4 to 8 for the build) in order to put my money and he kept taking more orders (the latest confirmed is late oct 2019)


All this information is out there. This forum has been here the whole time. Until Dylan ups and leaves with everyone's deposits, you need to take some responsibility for not doing any research.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I agree. He needs to say something like "Due to the complexity of the builds and the big number of existing orders we cannot guarantee any timeline". And that's actually a fair representation of the Daemoness reality today.
> But he did not do that. He still has the 30 months on his site, he did quoted these numbers to me (30 + 4 to 8 for the build) in order to put my money and he kept taking more orders (the latest confirmed is late oct 2019)



That's just semantics. I look at the "As a guide" ... "but please be aware that this may vary" language that he uses make the statement on the website exactly equivalent to what I said above in your quote. This is the fundamental reason I have no problem with him going over the estimate, because he states that this is not the type of estimate you should use as an accurate and invariant expectation of your finished build. 

I'm not sure what language he used in your email, but interpreting what he is saying in literal English on the webpage, he is saying your build can take longer than that period of time. Therefore it should be no surprise if it does so.


----------



## SamSam

mbardu said:


> But in the meantime, it's no reason not to be upfront with your customers as you accumulate literally years and years of non-refundable deposits.



The Build list is closed and has been closed for some time. It has also been closed in the past prior to this closure in order to focus on builds. This was in July 2015 and it was closed for over a year. And upon some time it was re-opened. And as stated, I am pretty certain that it is now closed.

So to say he is quoting isn't really accurate because if the books are closed then he isn't advertising anything. It's not as though people are currently randomly sending him deposit money and they haven't been for some time.


----------



## narad

Maybe it's my science and math background but I still view this as a language problem. To put it one way...

I tell you there are two numbers A and B. I tell you nothing more than that B is often close to A, but not necessarily. Is B:

a.) Equal to A
b.) Less than or greater than A, but not more than like 2 * A
c.) Less than or greater than A

There is an objective correct answer.


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> All this information is out there. This forum has been here the whole time. Until Dylan ups and leaves with everyone's deposits, you need to take some responsibility for not doing any research.


I did not know that I had to go through hundreds of pages of third party forums before I order something. I did check for NGD etc and the reviews were very good. At the time I put the deposit the delays were not discussed anywhere, and it roughly takes about 3+years in total. Also consumer law does not work like that. This is not the wild west where people take their time and deliver when they can by ignoring their own quoted times.



narad said:


> That's just semantics. I look at the "As a guide" ... "but please be aware that this may vary" language that he uses make the statement on the website exactly equivalent to what I said above in your quote. This is the fundamental reason I have no problem with him going over the estimate, because he states that this is not the type of estimate you should use as an accurate and invariant expectation of your finished build.
> 
> I'm not sure what language he used in your email, but interpreting what he is saying in literal English on the webpage, he is saying your build can take longer than that period of time. Therefore it should be no surprise if it does so.


Consumer law is not semantics. You keep claiming that the language and process is not binding and I keep explaining that the law in this country does not work like that.

This is what Barnes replied to me at 15 months: "We’re halfway there I’d say, and our estimate of 30 months to commence the build is going to be about right with our current workload. " You understand that this is a lie when they have builds from jan 2016 not started yet.
Also this is the info he provided in order to put my money in: "If you'd like to place an order for a custom guitar with us, please note that our current wait time is approximately 30 months for a build to commence. The build itself is then expected to take 4–8 months." These are the exact words. 50 months are clearly not approximately 30. I think we can agree on this..


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> These are the exact words. 50 months are clearly not approximately 30. I think we can agree on this..



Well you know, it's not a good approximation in this context, but it still is one.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Well you know, it's not a good approximation in this context, but it still is one.


I m pretty sure a UK judge will think otherwise but that remains to be seen. I really hope noone ever will have to find out.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> I did not know that I had to go through hundreds of pages of third party forums before I order something. I did check for NGD etc and the reviews were very good. At the time I put the deposit the delays were not discussed anywhere, and it roughly takes about 3+years in total. Also consumer law does not work like that. This is not the wild west where people take their time and deliver when they can by ignoring their own quoted times.


You didn't know you had to research extravagant purchases? And the wait he was quoting at the time was the time people were actually waiting? I wouldn't bet on a judge ruling in your favour if your argument is "a good faith estimate was given based on current workflow and development plans, but that was unfortunately exceeded due to unforeseen circumstances".


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> I m pretty sure a UK judge will think otherwise but that remains to be seen. I really hope noone ever will have to find out.



It isn't actually that simple. Barnes had not been working with him for the entire period and they estimated the wait time based on their combined output. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that the extrapolation of output was based on the fact that he had an employee who was competent. Also he probably did not add a time period just in case his painter suddenly died (hardly a foreseeable incident).

At the time of Barnes making that statement it may well have been an honest estimate based on those factors. Note that I said MAY. 

Of course Barnes left and Dylan does not appear to have addressed the queue as he is focused on building and thus cannot currently provide an accurate estimate without having done so. Bearing in mind that the production of these instruments does not just factor in say "50 guitars" since these guitar vary wildly in specification and certain guitars will take far longer than others may.

I would imagine that to provide an accurate estimate to someone who placed a deposit say (for example) mid 2017 (if it was possible to do so at the time) Dylan would have to read every single outstanding order prior to this and read each spec and estimate (based on the limited spec sheet) how long each guitar will take. 

Naturally this would an extremely long winded administration process. 

Information such as this would certainly make the actual realistic estimate extremely hard to provide and would likely provide Dylan with a lot of scope to argue that " in the balance of probability" he has not breached any "whether written or spoken" legally binding contract bearing in mind he didn't agree to a firm timeline in the first place.

Not going to say it's not possible, but it certainly isn't clear cut. Hell, this was a 5 minute write up, a semi decent solicitor will produce a much more comprehensive counter argument with a few hours office time...


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> You didn't know you had to research extravagant purchases? And the wait he was quoting at the time was the time people were actually waiting? I wouldn't bet on a judge ruling in your favour if your argument is "a good faith estimate was given based on current workflow and development plans, but that was unfortunately exceeded due to unforeseen circumstances".


As I said I was referring to the delays. The delays have not been discussed in detail until pretty much now. That s still irrelevant as I have been acting based on the info they provided to me where they obviously either lied or grossly misestimated the numbers. In UK law there is the concept of "time within reason". Since they have not started on 2016 orders yet, i am realistically at least 2.5-3 years behind. That means that the 30+ max 8 I was quoted becomes 60-66 +max 8, which is clearly not within reason, under any law system. On top of that, they have not lost any money on me as they have not bought any materials on my build. They are just sitting on my deposit. Now, you may not bet on a judge ruling in favour of me given the info I provided and that's fair enough, but allow me to disagree. As I said it remains to be seen.


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> It isn't actually that simple. Barnes had not been working with him for the entire period and they estimated the wait time based on their combined output. It wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that the extrapolation of output was based on the fact that he had an employee who was competent. Also he probably did not add a time period just in case his painter suddenly died (hardly a foreseeable incident).
> 
> At the time of Barnes making that statement it may well have been an honest estimate based on those factors. Note that I said MAY.
> 
> Of course Barnes left and Dylan does not appear to have addressed the queue as he is focused on building and thus cannot currently provide an accurate estimate without having done so. Bearing in mind that the production of these instruments does not just factor in say "50 guitars" since these guitar vary wildly in specification and certain guitars will take far longer than others may.
> 
> I would imagine that to provide an accurate estimate to someone who placed a deposit say (for example) mid 2017 (if it was possible to do so at the time) Dylan would have to read every single outstanding order prior to this and read each spec and estimate (based on the limited spec sheet) how long each guitar will take.
> 
> Naturally this would an extremely long winded administration process.
> 
> Information such as this would certainly make the actual realistic estimate extremely hard to provide and would likely provide Dylan with a lot of scope to argue that " in the balance of probability" he has not breached any "whether written or spoken" legally binding contract bearing in mind he didn't agree to a firm timeline in the first place.
> 
> Not going to say it's not possible, but it certainly isn't clear cut. Hell, this was a 5 minute write up, a semi decent solicitor will produce a much more comprehensive counter argument with a few hours office time...



What happens between Dylan and Barnes is irrelevant to me. The facts are the ones I presented, at least from my side. If Barnes went rogue and misinformed people, it is Dylan's problem not mine. What is important now is Dylan to give an honest assessment of the situation and provide realistic estimates. Anything before that, is just speculation and personal opinions. As I said many times, the legal route is a nuclear option and to be honest I don't think we ll ever go that way,as I m hoping if there are issues, they ll be resolved amicably.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> As I said I was referring to the delays. The delays have not been discussed in detail until pretty much now. That s still irrelevant as I have been acting based on the info they provided to me where they obviously either lied or grossly misestimated the numbers. In UK law there is the concept of "time within reason". Since they have not started on 2016 orders yet, i am realistically at least 2.5-3 years behind. That means that the 30+ max 8 I was quoted becomes 60-66 +max 8, which is clearly not within reason, under any law system. On top of that, they have not lose any money on me as they have not bought any materials on my build. They are just sitting on my deposit. Now, you may not bet on a judge ruling in favour of me given the info I provided and that's fair enough, but allow me to disagree. As I said it remains to be seen.


You're adding arbitrary numbers to verbiage without any precedent. "Within reason" like much of UK law is written intentionally vaguely, in law here "reasonably" is the term used when you need to temper expectations based on circumstances. Twice the time arguably isn't reasonable if they were just wrong and there were no issues. Twice the time is definitely reasonable if their finish guy dies and then 2/3 of the workforce quits.


----------



## narad

StevenC said:


> You're adding arbitrary numbers to verbiage without any precedent. "Within reason" like much of UK law is written intentionally vaguely, in law here "reasonably" is the term used when you need to temper expectations based on circumstances. Twice the time arguably isn't reasonable if they were just wrong and there were no issues. Twice the time is definitely reasonable if their finish guy dies and then 2/3 of the workforce quits.



Usually when I see talk about reasonable/unreasonable time, it's respect to contract work like carpentry, etc., where there is no queue or wait time. It's like literally the time of the service being provided. And the use case is like, "You gave an estimate that the roof would be done by October, now it's November and this family doesn't have a roof and needs to rent a second home" type scenario.


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> You're adding arbitrary numbers to verbiage without any precedent. "Within reason" like much of UK law is written intentionally vaguely, in law here "reasonably" is the term used when you need to temper expectations based on circumstances. Twice the time arguably isn't reasonable if they were just wrong and there were no issues. Twice the time is definitely reasonable if their finish guy dies and then 2/3 of the workforce quits.


In that sense then the court can say that the original circumstances have changed and the original promises cannot be kept from Dylan's side, so as one side cannot fulfil its obligation the agreement can be annulled and the deposit returned, since there was no loss on Dylan's side. I really don't understand why Dylan can take all the time in the world and that's it.At the same time you don't even acknowledge Barne's email where he said that i m in the middle where it was clearly a lie.
We can speculate and disagree on this all day, but I don't think we ll add anything more to the situation. Let's wait what Dylan has to say.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Usually when I see talk about reasonable/unreasonable time, it's respect to contract work like carpentry, etc., where there is no queue or wait time. It's like literally the time of the service being provided. And the use case is like, "You gave an estimate that the roof would be done by October, now it's November and this family doesn't have a roof and needs to rent a second home" type scenario.


You can check the concepts of "time at large" and "time within reason" under UK law. As i said here it s not the wild west. THere are rules and many cases of a similar nature. It s nothing new it happens all the time.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> You can check the concepts of "time at large" and "time within reason" under UK law. As i said here it s not the wild west. THere are rules and many cases of a similar nature. It s nothing new it happens all the time.



I lived in the UK for many years and my girlfriend studied law at UCL. We looked at "time at large" and it's pretty much not relevant at all. "Time within reason" just does not appear to be a thing at all.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I lived in the UK for many years and my girlfriend studied law at UCL. We looked at "time at large" and it's pretty much not relevant at all. "Time within reason" just does not appear to be a thing at all.


Ok then if the time ever comes and this ends in the court room, you can suggest your gf to Dylan to be his defending lawyer, since you are so passionately defending this undefendable situation. Until he comes with a statement we can disagree all day in here with no real concequences at all.
For the record time at large refers to cases where there is not a prespecified hard deadline. It could not be more relevant in this case


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Ok then if the time ever comes and this ends in the court room, you can suggest your gf to Dylan to be his defending lawyer, since you are so passionately defending this undefendable situation. Until he comes with a statement we can disagree all day in here with no real concequences at all.
> For the record time at large refers to cases where there is not a prespecified hard deadline. It could not be more relevant in this case



It does, but there's dozens of other things that characterize what "time at large" refers to. It is not used in a way that is relevant to this situation. *It doesn't even exist to protect you* -- the employer -- but the contractor, i.e., Dylan. It is in effect, the exact opposite of what you want. And if you can't understand that, you probably shouldn't be citing any sort of legal jargon.

And I'm not a lawyer. I asked for some examples of precedent with similar situations so that I could understand how the courts were likely to rule, because I want to learn something for myself. What isn't helpful is people who don't understand anything about the law being very adamant about understanding the law works or how something like "time at large" is really going to put Dylan in his place if things come to that. If you want to talk law, link to some similar case or other legal protection. Don't just namedrop a bunch of things that aren't real or aren't relevant, because we're all literally on the internet like 10 seconds away from researching it ourselves.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> It does, but there's dozens of other things that characterize what "time at large" refers to. It is not used in a way that is relevant to this situation. *It doesn't even exist to protect you* -- the employer -- but the contractor, i.e., Dylan. It is in effect, the exact opposite of what you want. And if you can't understand that, you probably shouldn't be citing any sort of legal jargon.
> 
> And I'm not a lawyer. I asked for some examples of precedent with similar situations so that I could understand how the courts were likely to rule, because I want to learn something for myself. What isn't helpful is people who don't understand anything about the law being very adamant about understanding the law works or how something like "time at large" is really going to put Dylan in his place if things come to that. If you want to talk law, link to some similar case or other legal protection. Don't just namedrop a bunch of things that aren't real or aren't relevant, because we're all literally on the internet like 10 seconds away from researching it ourselves.


I did not say it is there to protect me, it is a concept that is relevant to the case where time ceases to exist in a contract between parties. The case you describe is one of the practicalities of the concept indeed but it does not refer to that solely. I have the capacity to obtain legal help, i m not just throwing legal jargon. 

In any case all this is irrelevant. I believe if things go really badly i have a case. You disagree. All good.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> In that sense then the court can say that the original circumstances have changed and the original promises cannot be kept from Dylan's side, so as one side cannot fulfil its obligation the agreement can be annulled and the deposit returned, since there was no loss on Dylan's side. I really don't understand why Dylan can take all the time in the world and that's it.At the same time you don't even acknowledge Barne's email where he said that i m in the middle where it was clearly a lie.
> We can speculate and disagree on this all day, but I don't think we ll add anything more to the situation. Let's wait what Dylan has to say.


I mean, you're just wrong here. If the wait doubled just because he lied, you might be entitled to something. 

But that's not the case.

The case is that in the past few years waits have fluctuated for several reasons. A court would take those fluctuations into account because duhdoy. 

Hell, maybe 30 months means "30 months assuming every build from now and then is very simple". When the whole appeal of Daemoness is the artistry and concept in the inlay and finish work _you the customer _have to be aware that the time to build any guitar changes depending on the work involved.



mehegama said:


> I did not say it is there to protect me, it is a concept that is relevant to the case where time ceases to exist in a contract between parties. The case you describe is one of the practicalities of the concept indeed but it does not refer to that solely. I have the capacity to obtain legal help, i m not just throwing legal jargon.
> 
> In any case all this is irrelevant. I believe if things go really badly i have a case. You disagree. All good.


I'm not being rude when I say this, but it doesn't sound like you have any legal background. In the UK civil cases depend heavily on common law, so if you don't have an example of that law being applied in a very similar incident, you're not going to win with that argument in small claims.

This isn't a disagreement. Narad is saying you don't have a case right now because things haven't gone really bad. And you're supposing a hypothetical where things have gone really bad without defining that, arguing your case based on a bunch of stuff you don't seem to have a grasp of.


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> I mean, you're just wrong here. If the wait doubled just because he lied, you might be entitled to something.
> 
> But that's not the case.
> 
> The case is that in the past few years waits have fluctuated for several reasons. A court would take those fluctuations into account because duhdoy.
> 
> Hell, maybe 30 months means "30 months assuming every build from now and then is very simple". When the whole appeal of Daemoness is the artistry and concept in the inlay and finish work _you the customer _have to be aware that the time to build any guitar changes depending on the work involved.
> 
> 
> I'm not being rude when I say this, but it doesn't sound like you have any legal background. In the UK civil cases depend heavily on common law, so if you don't have an example of that law being applied in a very similar incident, you're not going to win with that argument in small claims.
> 
> This isn't a disagreement. Narad is saying you don't have a case right now because things haven't gone really bad. And you're supposing a hypothetical where things have gone really bad without defining that, arguing your case based on a bunch of stuff you don't seem to have a grasp of.


There are many similar cases all the time when a contractor falls behind their timelines. It s not a unique situation. I m not a lawyer but as I said I have obtained preliminary legal advice already, and I have the capacity to go there if ever needed. You and Narad think i don't have a case. I disagree. Last time I checked this is not a court room and you are not a judge, so our opinions are just that: personal opinions. So if this case ever ends there, it remains to be seen what will happen and if i m wrong or not. 
You are of the opinion that it is what it is. I disagree, I feel deceived and I don't see how this can be resolved in any other way unless he magically cuts somehow the wait significantly or refunds the deposit. To me in particular, there are no other alternatives. I m positive that no matter what happens, Dylan will assess the situation and resolve any disputes amicably.


----------



## narad

StevenC said:


> This isn't a disagreement. Narad is saying you don't have a case right now because things haven't gone really bad. And you're supposing a hypothetical where things have gone really bad without defining that, arguing your case based on a bunch of stuff you don't seem to have a grasp of.



Well I'm saying the particular legal arguments he's raised are not valid / not supported by the legal protections he's cited. There could be others out there that perfectly fit this situation, but I haven't seen any. Like you say, it's common law. Not the dark web. Existing cases are out there to see.

I think the one thing that is clear from precedent common law cases I have found is that any sort of contractual disagreement needs to go through many formal steps -- it does not seem to ever be like, file a document, show up in court, get paid. It seems drawn out and there appear to be many hooks that force compromises, which in most of these cases seem to be a lot of trouble for both people. I mean, for 600 GBP, unless you're working at pret you're probably financially better off just letting the money go when you are factoring in opportunity cost.


----------



## narad

Though knowing Dylan maybe this will end in trial by combat.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> There are many similar cases all the time when a contractor falls behind their timelines. It s not a unique situation. I m not a lawyer but as I said I have obtained preliminary legal advice already, and I have the capacity to go there if ever needed. You and Narad think i don't have a case. I disagree. Last time I checked this is not a court room and you are not a judge, so our opinions are just that: personal opinions. So if this case ever ends there, it remains to be seen what will happen and if i m wrong or not.
> You are of the opinion that it is what it is. I disagree, I feel deceived and I don't see how this can be resolved in any other way unless he magically cuts somehow the wait significantly or refunds the deposit. To me in particular, there are no other alternatives. I m positive that no matter what happens, Dylan will assess the situation and resolve any disputes amicably.


I don't think you know what any of the words you're using mean, so good luck wasting your time and energy on 650 quid.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Well I'm saying the particular legal arguments he's raised are not valid / not supported by the legal protections he's cited. There could be others out there that perfectly fit this situation, but I haven't seen any. Like you say, it's common law. Not the dark web. Existing cases are out there to see.
> 
> I think the one thing that is clear from precedent common law cases I have found is that any sort of contractual disagreement needs to go through many formal steps -- it does not seem to ever be like, file a document, show up in court, get paid. It seems drawn out and there appear to be many hooks that force compromises, which in most of these cases seem to be a lot of trouble for both people. I mean, for 600 GBP, unless you're working at pret you're probably financially better off just letting the money go when you are factoring in opportunity cost.


If the arguments I raised are valid or not, will be judged in a court room, if it ever goes there. I ll say it for the millionth time, that would be the final step if all other formal and informal mitigation steps fail.



StevenC said:


> I don't think you know what any of the words you're using mean, so good luck wasting your time and energy on 650 quid.


I think you misjudge and offend people who you don't know.


----------



## Jonathan20022

It honestly sounds like Mehegama just wants out and realistically would never be satisfied by the way Dylan does business.

There's nothing wrong with that, and of course you would probably win in a clear cut court showing with the given "facts". But at the end of the day you just don't seem to be cut out to order a custom instrument from anyone in the space of an independent luthier.

We agree that the verbage should be more clear and transparent, which has and is seemingly going to be addressed.



> This is what Barnes replied to me at 15 months: "We’re halfway there I’d say, and our estimate of 30 months *to commence the build* is going to be about right with *our current workload.* " You understand that this is a lie when they have builds from jan 2016 not started yet.



You were quoted on expectations based on their workload from that moment in time. Today that quote is definitely not true, but to completely disregard all the factors brought up here that have halted progress on the guitars and queue overall is way more than just willful ignorance. There have been delays, and if you insist on relying on loose estimations to support your legal case then I'm not sure you earnestly want this guitar anymore. You're just opting to get your cash back and dip from the queue, and hooking onto any reason you can hold onto to support it.

tl;dr
You are not wrong to abandon your spot, but you are also not giving due leeway to the opposite side for uncontrollable factors that ultimately produce delays.


----------



## mehegama

Jonathan20022 said:


> It honestly sounds like Mehegama just wants out and realistically would never be satisfied by the way Dylan does business.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with that, and of course you would probably win in a clear cut court showing with the given "facts". But at the end of the day you just don't seem to be cut out to order a custom instrument from anyone in the space of an independent luthier.
> 
> We agree that the verbage should be more clear and transparent, which has and is seemingly going to be addressed.
> 
> 
> 
> You were quoted on expectation based on their workload from that moment in time. Today that quote is definitely not true, but to completely disregard all the factors brought up here that have halted progress on the guitars and queue overall is way more than just willful ignorance. There have been delays, and if you insist on relying on loose estimations to support your legal case then I'm not sure you earnestly want this guitar anymore. You're just opting to get your cash back and dip from the queue, and hooking onto any reason you can hold onto to support it.
> 
> tl;dr
> You are not wrong to abandon your spot, but you are also not giving due leeway to the opposite side for uncontrollable factors that ultimately produce delays.


You see here is the issue: unless he comes out and clarifies the situation this type of speculation will continue. So it is good that he ll make a statement soon so we know the facts from his side. The discussion here is hypothetical: what can be done if anything else fails. How many times have I said that I don't intend to sue him?
Also how many times have I said that i love his work and I want my build asap?
However I had certain expectations regarding the timelines and I realise that i m at least 2.5 to 3 years behind. That is a drastic change of the original agreement in my view, and also I m not willing to wait that much. You and some others can. And that 's great for you. I can't.


----------



## Jonathan20022

So you can't wait, like you said. Which doesn't change what I mentioned, you are definitely not getting your guitar in the next 12 months at the current pace. So if you *can't wait*, then it's time to ask for your deposit back, and if you don't get it take appropriate action after.

You're fence sitting really hard,

You love his work? Sure, that's fair.
You want your guitar asap? That's probably not going to happen.
You can't wait? Then that sounds like a hard stop and you should move onto the end of your decision tree.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mehegama said:


> that's just so annoying. I ve been trying to get in touch via all platforms available (new email, fb, ig, site form) and simply getting no answer. i m in 26 months so needed an update getting near the 30th month but hearing that the 30 months are in reality 60... if that is the case i m super disappointed.



The funny thing is all of this talk about definitive and deadlines that have Dylan needs to stand by.. and you haven't even crossed the line on a single number provided by the official Daemoness team?

So you're 26 (Now 27 months into the wait), were told at 15 months that you are halfway to your build STARTING. And you're stirring up these discussions based on a non-existent breach of an *estimation*? You're not 2.5 - 3 years behind, you're by definition on track with what the website is saying you should expect.


----------



## mehegama

Jonathan20022 said:


> So you can't wait, like you said. Which doesn't change what I mentioned, you are definitely not getting your guitar in the next 12 months at the current pace. So if you *can't wait*, then it's time to ask for your deposit back, and if you don't get it take appropriate action after.
> 
> You're fence sitting really hard,
> 
> You love his work? Sure, that's fair.
> You want your guitar asap? That's probably not going to happen.
> You can't wait? Then that sounds like a hard stop and you should move onto the end of your decision tree.


by "I cant wait" I meant another 3 years extra. I said before I m not unreasonable, i understand some delays might be inevitable, but getting to 3-4 years extra, then the situation becomes ridiculous. I ll say it again , i m positive whatever happens it will be amicable. And i really hope that this will end with me getting the guitar and him the rest of the money.


----------



## mehegama

Jonathan20022 said:


> The funny thing is all of this talk about definitive and deadlines that have Dylan needs to stand by.. and you haven't even crossed the line on a single number provided by the official Daemoness team?
> 
> So you're 26 (Now 27 months into the wait), were told at 15 months that you are halfway to your build STARTING. And you're stirring up these discussions based on a non-existent breach of an *estimation*? You're not 2.5 - 3 years behind, you're by definition on track with what the website is saying you should expect.


Exactly, this is my point above. For some reason a hypothetical discussion based on estimations, since there are people with deposits from Jan 2016 that they have not even had the skype call yet, became "i m suing next week".
I never said that, that was a response to people saying the deposit is not refundable. I keep saying the same things over and over again just because some people here get super defensive on an obvious undefendable situation. I m waiting like everyone else, for his reply. The I cant wait is a reference to doubling the timelines.


----------



## mbardu

Now I don't know what to believe anymore. Has it been "inaccurate" (to put it generously) 5+years vs 30 months estimate for many years, as early as 2014 or honest estimates at first and just misunderstanding?

Again, I'll preface by saying the guy does absolutely amazing work and I have nothing against him.

What I find pretty amusing though is the level of double standards and rationalization here though.

_"Because we like the builder, then all arguments in favor of the builder are good, and no argument in favor of the customer is acceptable.
Suddenly, customer protections are void, and it's your fault for not reading all forum posts and not knowing "30 months means 6 years" so deal with it.
6 years is not that long, what are you even complaining about, it's only a few hundred $$$, you should have known better than what the guy who took your money told you.
Technically, if you want to speak semantics, an estimate is not a quote, is not a contract, so I would imagine there's no obligation to deliver"_

All the above, seriously  ?
I would bet any less popular builder would not get such a favorable treatment or view here.
Again it's fine to be a buyer perfectly OK with the _actual _wait times, especially if you know the circumstances- and you can only empathize with Dylan TBH.
Doesn't mean we can't _also _empathize with the guys who were told something, were expecting something and are seeing something totally different instead.

PS: someone was saying that he was closing his order book and taking steps to be honest, no longer taking deposits while he's swamped, but as now the website shows


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Now I don't know what to believe anymore. Has it been "inaccurate" (to put it generously) 5+years vs 30 months estimate for many years, as early as 2014 or honest estimates at first and just misunderstanding?
> 
> Again, I'll preface by saying the guy does absolutely amazing work and I have nothing against him.
> 
> What I find pretty amusing though is the level of double standards and rationalization here though.
> 
> _"Because we like the builder, then all arguments in favor of the builder are good, and no argument in favor of the customer is acceptable.
> Suddenly, customer protections are void, and it's your fault for not reading all forum posts and not knowing "30 months means 6 years" so deal with it.
> 6 years is not that long, what are you even complaining about, it's only a few hundred $$$, you should have known better than what the guy who took your money told you.
> Technically, if you want to speak semantics, an estimate is not a quote, is not a contract, so I would imagine there's no obligation to deliver"_
> 
> All the above, seriously  ?
> I would bet any less popular builder would not get such a favorable treatment or view here.
> Again it's fine to be a buyer perfectly OK with the _actual _wait times, especially if you know the circumstances- and you can only empathize with Dylan TBH.
> Doesn't mean we can't _also _empathize with the guys who were told something, were expecting something and are seeing something totally different instead.
> 
> PS: someone above was saying that he was closing his order book and that he taking steps to be honest and no longer take deposits while he's swamped, but as of right now, the website shows:



No one said your loaded quote, and I recommend before anyone quotes mbardu and tries to clarify or break down that once again, *loaded *quote. Refrain from doing so, it's essentially bait.

There's 30+ pages of discussions where people break down what they meant, and the individual statements being amalgamated into that one *loaded *quote.

The facts are that Dylan has acknowledged that the timelines need to be updated to better match the result, is willing to do so. And is currently with his head down working on instruments and delivering them.


----------



## Blytheryn

mbardu said:


> Now I don't know what to believe anymore. Has it been "inaccurate" (to put it generously) 5+years vs 30 months estimate for many years, as early as 2014 or honest estimates at first and just misunderstanding?
> 
> Again, I'll preface by saying the guy does absolutely amazing work and I have nothing against him.
> 
> What I find pretty amusing though is the level of double standards and rationalization here though.
> 
> _"Because we like the builder, then all arguments in favor of the builder are good, and no argument in favor of the customer is acceptable.
> Suddenly, customer protections are void, and it's your fault for not reading all forum posts and not knowing "30 months means 6 years" so deal with it.
> 6 years is not that long, what are you even complaining about, it's only a few hundred $$$, you should have known better than what the guy who took your money told you.
> Technically, if you want to speak semantics, an estimate is not a quote, is not a contract, so I would imagine there's no obligation to deliver"_
> 
> All the above, seriously  ?
> I would bet any less popular builder would not get such a favorable treatment or view here.
> Again it's fine to be a buyer perfectly OK with the _actual _wait times, especially if you know the circumstances- and you can only empathize with Dylan TBH.
> Doesn't mean we can't _also _empathize with the guys who were told something, were expecting something and are seeing something totally different instead.
> 
> PS: someone was saying that he was closing his order book and taking steps to be honest, no longer taking deposits while he's swamped, but as now the website shows



Website has probably not been updated in a while. That’s why the estimates are off and that’s still up.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> _Suddenly, customer protections are void, and it's your fault for not reading all forum posts and not knowing "30 months means 6 years" so deal with it._



This is a mischaracterization. No one said you had to come on the forum to know 30 months meant 6 years -- even those on the forums did not know such a thing in 2016/2017. To know that 30 months could be much more than 30 months, all one needed to do was read the statement on the website regarding how long a guitar would take.



mbardu said:


> Doesn't mean we can't _also _empathize with the guys who were told something and are seeing something totally different instead.



I empathize a little but more like, you should read better. Like if someone didn't read the fine print and it turned out they were agreeing to something they didn't like, that's sad -- it's annoying to read that -- but ultimately it's your fault. 

Similarly, you should be able to read the sentences on the website and understand that it is clearly stated that there is no guarantee that the estimates will be accurate for your build. If you don't have the ability to read that correctly, it's your fault. There's no way in which Dylan can otherwise say, ~previous builds tend to take this long, but yours may not. Maybe Dylan should just stop giving estimates to people -- you can't trust people to understand english as written these days. "Estimated time for a build from Daemoness is now 50 years, but most are done sooner", special clause.

Otherwise, if waiting 4 years or 5 years is too long for you, that's extra, and you should ask this sort of thing prior to placing a deposit. Had Mehegama said "Oh, I noticed there's no definite timeline for the build -- I can't wait more than 5 years, would it definitely be done by then?" "Oh yea, for sure" -- in this case, I would 100% have Mehe's back. But that's not what happened here and not what he agreed to.

That said, Dylan doesn't lose anything by giving a refund and it benefits me and the other Daemoness fans, so I think it's kind of a win-win.


----------



## mbardu

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one said your loaded quote, and I recommend before anyone quotes mbardu and tries to clarify or break down that once again, *loaded *quote. Refrain from doing so, it's essentially bait.
> 
> There's 30+ pages of discussions where people break down what they meant, and the individual statements being amalgamated into that one *loaded *quote.
> 
> The facts are that Dylan has acknowledged that the timelines need to be updated to better match the result, is willing to do so. And is currently with his head down working on instruments and delivering them.



Oh no, you again  ? Now, I didn't point at you specifically so I would have appreciated if you had at least the courtesy to do the same. But looks like you have a vendetta against me personally. If you feel the above does not apply to you, or if you feel that it's not fair the way I worded it, OK too. You don't have to tell other people what to believe lmao.

It's not meant to be a _quote_. Maybe it's not your case, but there are people who believe it's clearly the spirit of those arguments.
I'd go through the painstaking process of quoting post by post like you asked me to do in prior discussions, but we all saw that that just ends up with you then moving the goalposts, walking back your points or just not replying anymore when out of arguments.
So instead I'll let everyone be the judge and peace out.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> Oh no, you again  ? Now, I didn't point at you specifically so I would have appreciated if you had at least the courtesy to do the same. Buit looks like you have a vendetta agains tme personally. If you feel the above does not apply to you, or if you feel that it's not fair the way I worded it, OK too. You don't have to tell other people what to believe lmao.
> 
> It's not meant to be a _quote_. Maybe it's not your case, but there are clearly people who believe it's clearly the spirit of those arguments.
> I'd quote post by post like you asked me to do in prior discussions, but we all saw that that just ends up with you not movign the goalposts, walking back yoru points or just not replying anymore when out of arguments.
> So instead I'll let everyone be the judge and peace out.



It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that I'm not a fan of your disingenuous forum activity from our conversation history.

1) You used quotations
2) You combined every individual stance discussed at LENGTH over the last 30+ pages into a single opinion
3) You created your own boogeyman, and are going to hide behind your "I didn't point at you" for the rest of the conversation

I take issue with your posts because you are a text book bad faith actor. You continuously misconstrue other's opinions and misquote them, and in the same spineless fashion don't progress any meaningful conversation.

It's the reason you brought a buried point back from the dead, made a fake quote and you're trying to be snarky with your *HEH DOUBLE STANDARDS* post. Just calling out the shit when I see it.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> This is a mischaracterization. No one said you had to come on the forum to know 30 months meant 6 years -- even those on the forums did not know such a thing in 2016/2017. To know that 30 months could be much more than 30 months, all one needed to do was read the statement on the website regarding how long a guitar would take.



In the prior page, someone is arguing that this particular post and others being here means the buyers should be more informed.
Maybe that wasn't you, but that's an argument.



narad said:


> I empathize a little but more like, you should read better. Like if someone didn't read the fine print and it turned out they were agreeing to something they didn't like, that's sad -- it's annoying to read that -- but ultimately it's your fault.
> 
> Similarly, you should be able to read the sentences on the website and understand that it is clearly stated that there is no guarantee that the estimates will be accurate for your build. If you don't have the ability to read that correctly, it's your fault. There's no way in which Dylan can otherwise say, ~previous builds tend to take this long, but yours may not. Maybe Dylan should just stop giving estimates to people -- you can't trust people to understand english as written these days. "Estimated time for a build from Daemoness is now 50 years, but most are done sooner", special clause.
> 
> Otherwise, if waiting 4 years or 5 years is too long for you, that's extra, and you should ask this sort of thing prior to placing a deposit. Had Mehegama said "Oh, I noticed there's no definite timeline for the build -- I can't wait more than 5 years, would it definitely be done by then?" "Oh yea, for sure" -- in this case, I would 100% have Mehe's back. But that's not what happened here and not what he agreed to.
> 
> That said, Dylan doesn't lose anything by giving a refund and it benefits me and the other Daemoness fans, so I think it's kind of a win-win.



I'm sure you realize that once you're past the "estimate is only an estimate so it could be +30% more you never know" and you get into literally twice the "estimated" or "quoted" times, then it's waaaay more contentious, right? You're bending over backwards to only consider the builder's side by saying it's only an estimate and the buyer should have read better, but there is always a point where an estimate is so bad that it becomes problematic, or bad, or just a lie. In your subjective opinion, that point is pretty far, but for some people, twice as long is a lot, and no matter what you say, _they were not warned_. Saying "it's only an estimate" doesn't absolve someone of any and all responsibility.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Alright guys, calm down. Take a deep breath and don't post here for a bit.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> This is a mischaracterization. No one said you had to come on the forum to know 30 months meant 6 years -- even those on the forums did not know such a thing in 2016/2017. To know that 30 months could be much more than 30 months, all one needed to do was read the statement on the website regarding how long a guitar would take.
> 
> 
> 
> I empathize a little but more like, you should read better. Like if someone didn't read the fine print and it turned out they were agreeing to something they didn't like, that's sad -- it's annoying to read that -- but ultimately it's your fault.
> 
> Similarly, you should be able to read the sentences on the website and understand that it is clearly stated that there is no guarantee that the estimates will be accurate for your build. If you don't have the ability to read that correctly, it's your fault. There's no way in which Dylan can otherwise say, ~previous builds tend to take this long, but yours may not. Maybe Dylan should just stop giving estimates to people -- you can't trust people to understand english as written these days. "Estimated time for a build from Daemoness is now 50 years, but most are done sooner", special clause.
> 
> Otherwise, if waiting 4 years or 5 years is too long for you, that's extra, and you should ask this sort of thing prior to placing a deposit. Had Mehegama said "Oh, I noticed there's no definite timeline for the build -- I can't wait more than 5 years, would it definitely be done by then?" "Oh yea, for sure" -- in this case, I would 100% have Mehe's back. But that's not what happened here and not what he agreed to.
> 
> That said, Dylan doesn't lose anything by giving a refund and it benefits me and the other Daemoness fans, so I think it's kind of a win-win.


so in his quote you gloryfied the "with our current workload" and did not see the numbers quoted.. that is an interesting way to read this. It allows for perpetual moving of goalposts. It's ok we disagree strongly on the situation. Not that it will make any difference. I think we should be patient and see what he has to say about it. In that sense i m quite pessimistic about it.


mbardu said:


> Now I don't know what to believe anymore. Has it been "inaccurate" (to put it generously) 5+years vs 30 months estimate for many years, as early as 2014 or honest estimates at first and just misunderstanding?
> 
> Again, I'll preface by saying the guy does absolutely amazing work and I have nothing against him.
> 
> What I find pretty amusing though is the level of double standards and rationalization here though.
> 
> _"Because we like the builder, then all arguments in favor of the builder are good, and no argument in favor of the customer is acceptable.
> Suddenly, customer protections are void, and it's your fault for not reading all forum posts and not knowing "30 months means 6 years" so deal with it.
> 6 years is not that long, what are you even complaining about, it's only a few hundred $$$, you should have known better than what the guy who took your money told you.
> Technically, if you want to speak semantics, an estimate is not a quote, is not a contract, so I would imagine there's no obligation to deliver"_
> 
> All the above, seriously  ?
> I would bet any less popular builder would not get such a favorable treatment or view here.
> Again it's fine to be a buyer perfectly OK with the _actual _wait times, especially if you know the circumstances- and you can only empathize with Dylan TBH.
> Doesn't mean we can't _also _empathize with the guys who were told something, were expecting something and are seeing something totally different instead.
> 
> PS: someone was saying that he was closing his order book and taking steps to be honest, no longer taking deposits while he's swamped, but as now the website shows


could not agree more


----------



## prlgmnr

narad said:


> Though knowing Dylan maybe this will end in trial by combat.


That would be infinitely preferable to reading this thread any more.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Legal arguments aside, I feel like it would a decent and honourable thing for Dylan to refund deposits for people who don’t want to keep waiting. Perhaps with some sort of cutoff, like cancelling all the 2018 onwards orders. That would give him a chance to actually catch up and lift what must be an oppressive cloud hanging over him. 

I don’t know whether he’s financially able to do that. But it would be reasonable to offer a way out for people who were told 30 months and actually it will be 2x that. Two pages ago was a guy with a Jan 2016 deposit whose build hasn’t started. That’s already 50+ months and it will almost certainly by >60 by the time he gets a guitar. I feel like that’s enough difference that many people would not be prepared to wait that long if they knew it would take that long. 

As a second point, I chatted with Barnes recently (ie after he left) and he still says the estimate build time is accurate and my mid-2018 deposit is on time. I can’t see why he would to try and make Dylan look better, or anything like that. 

That leads me to suspect that the whole order list is in a total mess. As @IbanezDaemon mentioned, perhaps Dylan doesn’t even know exactly what is on the list. I did almost everything by Whatsapp with Barnes. The best to hope for is that there’s an Excel spreadsheet with all the offers, deposits and contact details...


----------



## Sermo Lupi

narad said:


> Well I'm saying the particular legal arguments he's raised are not valid / not supported by the legal protections he's cited. There could be others out there that perfectly fit this situation, but I haven't seen any. Like you say, it's common law. Not the dark web. Existing cases are out there to see.
> 
> I think the one thing that is clear from precedent common law cases I have found is that any sort of contractual disagreement needs to go through many formal steps -- it does not seem to ever be like, file a document, show up in court, get paid. It seems drawn out and there appear to be many hooks that force compromises, which in most of these cases seem to be a lot of trouble for both people. I mean, for 600 GBP, unless you're working at pret you're probably financially better off just letting the money go when you are factoring in opportunity cost.



Not sure if you saw my post from a few pages back, but small claims judgments are recorded in the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines and the judgments are only recorded if they remain unpaid for thirty days after being handed down. So you will not find many relevant precedents online. 

I'm also seeing a lot of misunderstandings (on both sides) as to how small claims work. I wrote an overview on how to make a claim on page 17 of this thread. 

Like I said in that post, however, I haven't seen anyone present any information in here that indicates they would have a leg to stand on in court. The courts require you to follow a formal complaints process (Letter Before Claim, etc.) in addition to gathering a variety of evidence before going to court. A case like this probably wouldn't require a hearing anyway since the facts of the case would be evident through the documents submitted in the small claims process. And even then, there's like half a dozen opportunities for settlement (including through a court-appointed civil mediator) before a 'judge' will step in and review everything. 

Having said that, consumer protection is pretty robust in the UK and the idea that the courts do not regularly interpret the law is obviously flawed. You would not have the burden of presenting legal precedent for your claim. Even just the idea that precedent would be considered here is assuming a lot of the county court. Laws are not as rigid as they seem; the legal system as a whole has to adapt to the reality that most people do not know the law or act with it in mind. That's one reason why holding up the verbiage on Daemoness' website as a smoking gun for Dylan's defense or his guilt is problematic. Mitigating factors that could make or break the judgment for both sides could include how cooperative each party has been and whether an earnest attempt was made to clear up any misunderstandings. That could matter as much as any excuses pointing to unreliable subcontractors or build estimates given on websites.

I'm not going to speculate on an outcome. I'll just say it isn't cut and dry. 

Anyway, does it even matter if Dylan has refunded people in the past and has now communicated that he acknowledges there's a problem and is trying to work it out? 

Not much assurance can be given beyond that. Either request a refund and take further action if necessary, or wait it out. That's literally all you can do. 

NB: small claims can be made up to 6 years after the goods or service has been paid for.


----------



## mehegama

Flappydoodle said:


> Legal arguments aside, I feel like it would a decent and honourable thing for Dylan to refund deposits for people who don’t want to keep waiting. Perhaps with some sort of cutoff, like cancelling all the 2018 onwards orders. That would give him a chance to actually catch up and lift what must be an oppressive cloud hanging over him.
> 
> I don’t know whether he’s financially able to do that. But it would be reasonable to offer a way out for people who were told 30 months and actually it will be 2x that. Two pages ago was a guy with a Jan 2016 deposit whose build hasn’t started. That’s already 50+ months and it will almost certainly by >60 by the time he gets a guitar. I feel like that’s enough difference that many people would not be prepared to wait that long if they knew it would take that long.
> 
> As a second point, I chatted with Barnes recently (ie after he left) and he still says the estimate build time is accurate and my mid-2018 deposit is on time. I can’t see why he would to try and make Dylan look better, or anything like that.
> 
> That leads me to suspect that the whole order list is in a total mess. As @IbanezDaemon mentioned, perhaps Dylan doesn’t even know exactly what is on the list. I did almost everything by Whatsapp with Barnes. The best to hope for is that there’s an Excel spreadsheet with all the offers, deposits and contact details...


I think this is a very calm and well thought solution for people that IF (I say if, so I m not misinterpreted again) Dylan comes next week and revises the times significantly, have a way out IF they do want so.
As for Barnes saying this, it is really weird as there are multiple people post 2016 that have not even have the call yet, so that does not seem good. I think you are right that Dylan has no idea how big the queue is.


----------



## narad

Sermo Lupi said:


> Not sure if you saw my post from a few pages back, but small claims judgments are recorded in the Register of Judgments, Orders and Fines and the judgments are only recorded if they remain unpaid for thirty days after being handed down. So you will not find many relevant precedents online.
> 
> I'm also seeing a lot of misunderstandings (on both sides) as to how small claims work. I wrote an overview on how to make a claim on page 17 of this thread.
> 
> Like I said in that post, however, I haven't seen anyone present any information in here that indicates they would have a leg to stand on in court. The courts require you to follow a formal complaints process (Letter Before Claim, etc.) in addition to gathering a variety of evidence before going to court. A case like this probably wouldn't require a hearing anyway since the facts of the case would be evident through the documents submitted in the small claims process. And even then, there's like half a dozen opportunities for settlement (including through a court-appointed civil mediator) before a 'judge' will step in and review everything.
> 
> Having said that, consumer protection is pretty robust in the UK and the idea that the courts do not regularly interpret the law is obviously flawed. You would not have the burden of presenting legal precedent for your claim. Even just the idea that precedent would be considered here is assuming a lot of the county court. Laws are not as rigid as they seem; the legal system as a whole has to adapt to the reality that most people do not know the law or act with it in mind. That's one reason why holding up the verbiage on Daemoness' website as a smoking gun for Dylan's defense or his guilt is problematic. Mitigating factors that could make or break the judgment for both sides could include how cooperative each party has been and whether an earnest attempt was made to clear up any misunderstandings. That could matter as much as any excuses pointing to unreliable subcontractors or build estimates given on websites.
> 
> I'm not going to speculate on an outcome. I'll just say it isn't cut and dry.
> 
> Anyway, does it even matter if Dylan has refunded people in the past and has now communicated that he acknowledges there's a problem and is trying to work it out?
> 
> Not much assurance can be given beyond that. Either request a refund and take further action if necessary, or wait it out. That's literally all you can do.
> 
> NB: small claims can be made up to 6 years after the goods or service has been paid for.



I don't disagree with anything said here and I think your post from some pages ago was one of the better posts of the entire thread and gave me enough pointers to go off searching as to how things work. 

So far though, it doesn't seem like any sort of strong legal case against Dylan has been presented so far here. I don't think it's unlikely he would be asked to refund the deposit, at least at some part of the reconciling process, but the hell if I think anyone in here has any strong legal argument based on precedent or policy to get that money. I think anyone posting otherwise better have a url link attached to it.


----------



## Pat

HE'S AN ANGRY ELF


----------



## Avedas

After reading this thread I'm more shocked that anyone would actually give money to a company like this in the first place, regardless of the end product. I don't think I could ever do business with someone who operates in such a reckless manner.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Avedas said:


> After reading this thread I'm more shocked that anyone would actually give money to a company like this in the first place, regardless of the end product. I don't think I could ever do business with someone who operates in such a reckless manner.



I think the issue is that many of us did not know it was being so badly run. 

The guitars look amazing. Instagram was full of new guitars being completed and shipped. The process of deciding specs, getting quotes, paying deposit etc was orderly and efficient. I dealt with Barnes by Whatsapp and email. I even visited the shop. No problems. 

I was given the 30 month estimate and had no clear reason not to believe that. Perhaps it’s my fault for not doing ‘due diligence’ and asking where they were up to in the queue, but I don’t think that would be reasonable to expect. I wouldn’t normally ask a company that sort of thing. 

It’s only now that we are truly realising just how far behind Dylan is (not caught up to 2016 yet) and that those previous estimates were HIGHLY optimistic.


----------



## mbardu

MaxOfMetal said:


> Who doesn't do at least a first page Google of the business you're entering into a years long, multi-thousand dollar deal with?



Actually for fun I did just that, and without clicking links within links in links or watching full length of all linked videos, the first couple pages of google _do not_ speak about systematic delays or actual wait times. There is however one forum link on page 2 that talks about wait times and claims it was ~2 years as of 2018, and an interview of Dylan from a couple of years back who says he's now producing record number of guitars. So at least it's not_ that_ obvious that the expectation is they'd be very late - rather you could _easily _get the opposite impression.


----------



## Hollowway

Avedas said:


> After reading this thread I'm more shocked that anyone would actually give money to a company like this in the first place, regardless of the end product. I don't think I could ever do business with someone who operates in such a reckless manner.


This sentence is what everyone says when a lutherie business gets to this point. The issue is that most of them do not start this way. But you'd be hard pressed to figure out which ones end this way. Honestly, it's like looking at a company whose stock has collapsed, and saying, "Why would anyone have invested in this company."


----------



## mbardu

Hollowway said:


> This sentence is what everyone says when a lutherie business gets to this point. The issue is that most of them do not start this way. But you'd be hard pressed to figure out which ones end this way. Honestly, it's like looking at a company whose stock has collapsed, and saying, "Why would anyone have invested in this company."



Well thankfully I don't think it's that bad.
Just that if it's been taking 5 years for like, forever, then that's the time that should be quoted. Not half that.

If it's like the others say and all good buyers are fully aware and have done their due diligence, this should hardly impact the order book. They know already what to expect...but at least the few people who did not guess that it takes double would not be deceived.


----------



## Thrashman

This thread has really turned into a shit show.

I mean, I don't have much to add other than "who would wait over 3-4 years for a guitar?" and "jesus christ guys calm down", but you know...


----------



## Seabeast2000

/thread?


----------



## mehegama

Hollowway said:


> This sentence is what everyone says when a lutherie business gets to this point. The issue is that most of them do not start this way. But you'd be hard pressed to figure out which ones end this way. Honestly, it's like looking at a company whose stock has collapsed, and saying, "Why would anyone have invested in this company."


I think @Flappydoodle describes the situation pretty well. It s now that most people have realized what is going on. It ll be very interesting to hear Dylan's position the next few days.


----------



## StevenC

Seabeast2000 said:


> /thread?


Surely you can see the asterisk?


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> Surely you can see the asterisk?


is that an asterisk? and if it is, where is the explanation?


----------



## mbardu

StevenC said:


> Surely you can see the asterisk?



_I know right. _
People who don't see it's _clearly_ an asterisk explaining _in no uncertain terms_ that it means the order book is _actually_ closed and that when open, the build times are _actually_ at around 6 years are really bad at due diligence. It's pretty obvious from that image if you ask me. 
SMH, some people really don't know how to read ENGLISH


----------



## Seabeast2000

mehegama said:


> is that an asterisk? and if it is, where is the explanation?


DIO FONT SAYS YOU'RE THE LAST IN LINE.


----------



## mehegama

Seabeast2000 said:


> DIO FONT SAYS YOU'RE THE LAST IN LINE.


sorry i m really allergic to bad humour, especially about asterisks and fonts


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> is that an asterisk? and if it is, where is the explanation?


And this is why you shouldn't be discussing legalease.


----------



## c7spheres

I still think Daemoness should do a thing maybe similar to Solar. Make nice inexpensive guitars, but then Dylan can still do customs at his normal prices. 
- This would provide jobs and income for Daemoness and employ talent in whatever country they're made in.
- I'm only thinking of myself though because then I can get a basic bolt on Cimmerian at a lower price and faster than the long wait time! 
- If this happened I'm sure it would get F'd up somehow like the way Keisel and Ibanez do. You know, the usual; toilet burl tops, head scratching arm contours, knobs and switches in the way of your hands, weird shaped headstocks, terrible inlays, and so on. 
- Of course the real selling point would be the photo flames and photo graphics under gloss finishes of pixelated photo shopped unlicensed portrayals of Dylans art work, stickers for the inside cavity graphics, and copys of other customers' custom designs too thus lowering their value! Yay! I'd buy one, part out the body and slap a Prestige neck and bridge on it. That probably wouldn't be possible either though because there'd be some proprietary bridge on it that ruins the entire thing anyways. Dang it. 
- Sorry, I haven't had my nap today.


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> And this is why you shouldn't be discussing legalease.


haha ok random guy in the internet! your opinion and suggestions are of high value to me!
I’d suggest that you should try to speak in a better way in public discussions if you want people to take you seriously.


----------



## cip 123

mehegama said:


> haha ok random guy in the internet! your opinion and suggestions are of high value to me!
> I’d suggest that you should try to speak in a better way in public discussions if you want people to take you seriously.


Please God be saying this ironically


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> haha ok random guy in the internet! your opinion and suggestions are of high value to me!
> I’d suggest that you should try to speak in a better way in public discussions if you want people to take you seriously.


>100 of your 156 posts are truculence in this thread, am I really the one in need of lessons in etiquette?


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> >100 of your 156 posts are truculence in this thread, am I really the one in need of lessons in etiquette?


and what exactly is the point you are making? I joined much later than you so it happen to be more active on this subject. i have been expressing my opinion on a matter that interests me . You have another opinion. All good. 
What exactly is your issue on this and who are you to tell some one if they should or should not say something?
i d suggest you chill your tone a bit and discuss in a nice manner about the current situation.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> and what exactly is the point you are making? I joined much later than you so it happen to be more active on this subject. i have been expressing my opinion on a matter that interests me . You have another opinion. All good.
> What exactly is your issue on this and who are you to tell some one if they should or should not say something?
> i d suggest you chill your tone a bit and discuss in a nice manner about the current situation.


Dude, you're calling me out on a joke. Is that chill?


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

Locked thread in T-Minus 10...


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Crash Dandicoot said:


> Locked thread in T-Minus 10...


this thread should have been locked and stickied ages ago


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> Dude, you're calling me out on a joke. Is that chill?


It s not about the joke, i m talking about the tone. Anyways I think we just need to wait and see what he has to say.


----------



## c7spheres

- None of this stuff matters. If you got businness with Daemoness then deal with your business. (not talking to you or anyone else @mehegama
- Letting people know facts about your experience is really all that matters here.
- Speculating and arguing achieves nothing with Daemoness.
- Don't let Daemoness' actions (or lack thereof) cause SSO members to argue. It's not worth it.
- SSO members are not the problem, Daemoness ghosting problems are. Thousands of posts because some luthier in the UK can't answer an email or phone call and act like a professional.
- I don't know Dylan and I like to give the benefit of the doubt to people, but this ghosting shit is a problem. It's the epitomy of unprofessional and there is no excuse for months or years of not communicating, even if delays are in effect.
- His personal life and his problems and the Covid virus is no excuse. Even if he's in a coma in the hospital or dead is not an excuse. All this shit should be handled already incase this stuff happens. That is professional. Stuff in his will or lawyers instructions that says something to the effect of "If I die or become incapacitated then my customers must be updated on the situation via email or website."... Etc.

- Dude is talented, everyone wants his guitars, he is unprofessional and until he is heard from or gets sued we'll never know what's going on. I'd love to have one of his guitars but can't justify doiing any business for a long time unfortunately until these issues are far behind him/his company. As far as I can tell from website it's 3 years to start the build, not finish it. Go with that and whatever is quoted from Daemoness directly.


----------



## Flappydoodle

KnightBrolaire said:


> this thread should have been locked and stickied ages ago



Disagree. Why kill conversation? 

Also, the situation is still developing. We are waiting some sort of clarification/status report from Dylan.


----------



## Samark

As @Randy once said to me - be excellent to each other, friends. 

Let’s wait to see what Dylan says.


----------



## spudmunkey

Flappydoodle said:


> Disagree. Why kill conversation?
> 
> Also, the situation is still developing. We are waiting some sort of clarification/status report from Dylan.



Wouldnt it be because this thread is someone's "NGD" thread, and not the general Daemoness discussion thread? I've lost track, but none of the recent conversation has anything specifically to do with this guitar, does it? I thought OP heard back, and was getting a refund.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Wouldnt it be because this thread is someone's "NGD" thread, and not the general Daemoness discussion thread? I've lost track, but none if the recent conversation has anything specifically to do with this guitar.



It's sort of like having the two Kiesel threads.

It allows there to be both positive, neutral discussion while something more contentious takes place.

From a moderation standpoint, it's easier to handle than to constantly police a single megathead that devolves into bickering during other discussion. It seems counterintuitive at first (two threads has to be twice the work, right?) but it's worked so far.

Think of it as quarantine for bullshit.


----------



## spudmunkey

Oh, I get that...but if nothing else, the Kiesel "Never again" thread is a little less specific to an individual guitar.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Oh, I get that...but if nothing else, the Kiesel "Never again" thread is a little less specific to an individual guitar.



It actually started as someone's awful NGD/buying experience as well if you read the first page or two.


----------



## spudmunkey

MaxOfMetal said:


> It actually started as someone's awful NGD/buying experience as well if you read the first page or two.



Yes sorry...I accidentally deleted the word "title" in that reply after the word "thread".


----------



## MaxOfMetal

spudmunkey said:


> Yes sorry...I accidentally deleted the word "title" in that reply after the word "thread".



If you want me to change the thread title just ask.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

c7spheres said:


> I still think Daemoness should do a thing maybe similar to Solar. Make nice inexpensive guitars, but then Dylan can still do customs at his normal prices.
> - This would provide jobs and income for Daemoness and employ talent in whatever country they're made in.
> - I'm only thinking of myself though because then I can get a basic bolt on Cimmerian at a lower price and faster than the long wait time!
> - If this happened I'm sure it would get F'd up somehow like the way Keisel and Ibanez do. You know, the usual; toilet burl tops, head scratching arm contours, knobs and switches in the way of your hands, weird shaped headstocks, terrible inlays, and so on.
> - Of course the real selling point would be the photo flames and photo graphics under gloss finishes of pixelated photo shopped unlicensed portrayals of Dylans art work, stickers for the inside cavity graphics, and copys of other customers' custom designs too thus lowering their value! Yay! I'd buy one, part out the body and slap a Prestige neck and bridge on it. That probably wouldn't be possible either though because there'd be some proprietary bridge on it that ruins the entire thing anyways. Dang it.
> - Sorry, I haven't had my nap today.



It’s something that worked well for Strandberg and Ormsby because it’s based solely on the design where Dylan’s work is known for unique one off Thebes builds. You bring up the points of how a production line would need decals and veneer tops which could work but how would they cleanly execute inlay work without the price going way over $2k and into early Daemoness pricing. Opinions vary but the general consensus is Dylan is known for crazy artwork and themes which woukd be very difficult to put into production and even more so to do well. 

I think he mentioned to me that it was an idea to do basic Cimmerian runs with single finishes like world edge storm or wood finishes like the common walnut one but that would have been in house.


----------



## prlgmnr

c7spheres said:


> - His personal life and his problems and the Covid virus is no excuse. Even if he's in a coma in the hospital or dead is not an excuse.



As a minor point of order I reckon being dead would be a decent enough excuse when it comes to not answering one's emails.


----------



## narad

prlgmnr said:


> As a minor point of order I reckon being dead would be a decent enough excuse when it comes to not answering one's emails.



With the attitudes presented in this thread? Fat chance. 

I'm about to write a fan-fiction about a man who ventures through the 9 circles of hell in order to bargain with the devil for the rights to get his Daemoness deposit back from Dylan's soul.


----------



## c7spheres

Lorcan Ward said:


> It’s something that worked well for Strandberg and Ormsby because it’s based solely on the design where Dylan’s work is known for unique one off Thebes builds. You bring up the points of how a production line would need decals and veneer tops which could work but how would they cleanly execute inlay work without the price going way over $2k and into early Daemoness pricing. Opinions vary but the general consensus is Dylan is known for crazy artwork and themes which woukd be very difficult to put into production and even more so to do well.
> 
> I think he mentioned to me that it was an idea to do basic Cimmerian runs with single finishes like world edge storm or wood finishes like the common walnut one but that would have been in house.





prlgmnr said:


> As a minor point of order I reckon being dead would be a decent enough excuse when it comes to not answering one's emails.


Sorry.
- I was being fecetious but I do think having your affairs in order in case of death or incapacity should be worked out regardless when having so many people depend on you. Maybe he does. I don't know. 
- I just like carved top soloist style guitars and I'm a bit jealous of everyone who has a Daemoness in reality.


----------



## prlgmnr

It would explain not knowing how many orders were in the order book as well...


----------



## mehegama

There s a guy selling a Cimmerian 7 in reverb. Pretty plain but some might be interested


----------



## Randy

narad said:


> With the attitudes presented in this thread? Fat chance.
> 
> I'm about to write a fan-fiction about a man who ventures through the 9 circles of hell in order to bargain with the devil for the rights to get his Daemoness deposit back from Dylan's soul.



The Rock: "I’m pretty sure you underestimate how I’m not going to just give someone 500+$ and not get it back."

*jumps from steam powered blimp made of writhing human flesh as it explodes*


----------



## Sermo Lupi

narad said:


> With the attitudes presented in this thread? Fat chance.
> 
> I'm about to write a fan-fiction about a man who ventures through the 9 circles of hell in order to bargain with the devil for the rights to get his Daemoness deposit back from Dylan's soul.



Be forewarned, Dante exercised all kinds of petty disagreements with his contemporaries by damning them to Inferno or Purgatorio in his Divine Comedy 

The real question is, who's the bloke with the ass trumpet?


----------



## narad

Sermo Lupi said:


> Be forewarned, Dante exercised all kinds of petty disagreements with his contemporaries by damning them to Inferno or Purgatorio in his Divine Comedy
> 
> The real question is, who's the bloke with the ass trumpet?



I heard Dante's Inferno and his depiction of purgatory was just an allegory for his Daemoness build slot experience.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

narad said:


> I heard Dante's Inferno and his depiction of purgatory was just an allegory for his Daemoness build slot experience.



I've run the numbers and the theory checks out.

*Waitlist experience: *

Limbo: waiting for order book to open up.

Lust: intense desire to put down a deposit. 

Gluttony: over-indulgence in spec'ing out the guitar.

Greed: just fuck the queue, honestly.

Wrath: No, really, Dylan is a tart for building all these other customer's guitars before mine.

Heresy: forum ramblings.

Violence: I'm not saying I know how to break kneecaps, I'm just sayin', you better start working a little faster...

Fraud: On second thought, how about you give me back that non-refundable deposit?

Treachery: Dylan and his customers are a bunch of dummies. I'm not like them. I was misled. 


*Build experience (repentance): *

Build slot arrives. 60 months to realise:

Pride: I was bit ambitious before, let me re-spec.

Envy: I was wrong to resent others for an opportunity I wanted for myself all along. 

Wrath: All that stuff I said online...sorry, mate. It wasn't coming from the heart, promise.

Sloth: I could've done more than wait idly by. Any time wasted sitting in the queue is my own fault.

Avarice: My love for the brand was excessive; it led me covet other people and their guitars.

Gluttony: In fact, my appetite for the brand was also excessive. I shouldn't have put Daemoness on a pedestal.

Lust: I realise now that I wanted the guitar for a reason in the first place. Here's the rest of the payment.


*Guitar arrives: 
*
Paradiso


----------



## Bettershredthandead

^ Well, I guess the brands called Daemoness for a reason....


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Sermo Lupi said:


> Be forewarned, Dante exercised all kinds of petty disagreements with his contemporaries by damning them to Inferno or Purgatorio in his *Divine Comedy*



This was, ironically, my favorite Daemoness and all-time favorite guitar.

Seriously if any of you guys happen to come into possession of it and decide to sell it ever for any reason, definitely message me.


----------



## spudmunkey

I'm "meh" in the inlays and the back, but holy hell that top artwork is beautiful.


----------



## mbardu

mehegama said:


> There s a guy selling a Cimmerian 7 in reverb. Pretty plain but some might be interested



The one on Reverb is exactly the kind of guitar I don't understand from Daemoness.
Plain gray guitar with pretty "meh" neck.
For 4k$.
Dylan can do such incredible work in comparison to that one.



Ordacleaphobia said:


> This was, ironically, my favorite Daemoness and all-time favorite guitar.
> 
> Seriously if any of you guys happen to come into possession of it and decide to sell it ever for any reason, definitely message me.



Yep- that on the other hand...that's more like it.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Ordacleaphobia said:


> This was, ironically, my favorite Daemoness and all-time favorite guitar.
> 
> Seriously if any of you guys happen to come into possession of it and decide to sell it ever for any reason, definitely message me.



Interestingly, that guitar is called the Purgatory Cimmerian on Daemoness' website, but the image is L. Dumont's 1860 engraving of Dore's painting of Paolo and Francesca in Canto 5 of Inferno, which is to say Hell, not Purgatory.

The concept is pretty great, though. The thorn inlay is a nice touch. Not sure if this was Dylan's intended meaning, but Paolo and Francesca were damned to hell not for their love but for their lust; the moral of their story is basically that the line which separates love and lust is very narrow. It isn't dissimilar from the idea that every rose has its thorns. Not in the modern sense of taking the good with the bad, but rather the idea that things which are beautiful can become painful if mishandled. Paolo and Francesca were essentially virtuous but were led astray. The love that might have bonded them ensnared them instead through lust.

Obviously thorns are potent symbols in iconography generally, but using them as an inlay on that guitar, in reference to that scene from the Divine Comedy, was a nice touch.


----------



## spudmunkey

Sermo Lupi said:


> Interestingly, that guitar is called the Purgatory Cimmerian on Daemoness' website, but the image is L. Dumont's 1860 engraving of Dore's painting of Paolo and Francesca in Canto 5 of Inferno, which is to say Hell, not Purgatory.



Purgatory referred to the wait time.


----------



## Flappydoodle

So... when do we expect this statement/update from Dylan to materialise?

edit: for those thinking about getting deposits back:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...de-for-consumers/cancelling-goods-or-services



> Don’t just accept the business can keep your deposit and advance payments or ask you to pay a cancellation charge if you cancel the contract.
> 
> The business can only do this if the contract term is fair.
> 
> A cancellation charge is not fair just because it’s in the contract you signed – it needs to be reasonable.



So just because they wrote something doesn’t mean it’s enforceable 



> If you cancel the contract, the business is generally only entitled to keep or receive an amount sufficient to cover their actual losses that directly result from your cancellation (eg costs already incurred or loss of profit).



In this case, it’s clear that your cancellation does not result in any losses for Daemoness, if they have not purchased any materials for your build yet. 



> Businesses must take reasonable steps to reduce their losses (eg by re-selling the goods or services).



Daemoness specifically forbids reselling your build spot. 



> Non-refundable deposits should only be a small percentage of the total price.



This would be a matter of interpretation. My total build estimate was £3,000. So £600 is 20%.

Another guide here from a reputable consumer guidance magazine: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/can-i-claim-back-a-non-refundable-deposit



> If the deposit you paid was a reasonable and genuine reservation fee and not an advance payment, it may be kept by the business as a payment for that reservation.



Since the £600 *does* count towards the cost of the instrument, it is clearly an advance payment and not simply a reservation fee. 

It seems fairly clear that people should be legally entitled to get their deposits back, if the company has not started your build and incurred any costs related to your order. It doesn’t matter if Daemoness says ‘non refundable’. If they have no started your build or incurred costs, there is no loss to the company.


----------



## Avedas

Flappydoodle said:


> So... when do we expect this statement/update from Dylan to materialise?


30 months until he starts writing it, maybe about 60 until it gets posted.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

Flappydoodle said:


> So... when do we expect this statement/update from Dylan to materialise?



there is a 30 month wait list...then you will be contacted via skype on the specs of what you like hear in your custom statement/update.

after that there is a 2-4 year write-up time depending on how detailed of a statement you want. 


j/k...


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

Avedas said:


> 30 months until he starts writing it, maybe about 60 until it gets posted.



dang! you ninja...

was gonna erase mine but can't edit it for some reason


----------



## Flappydoodle

Avedas said:


> 30 months until he starts writing it, maybe about 60 until it gets posted.



Maybe it’s like the Cimmerian video which was finished and in final editing 18 months ago


----------



## narad

I was just browsing the Lone Wolf Audio page. Noticed this:



> As this is a handmade item, made 1 at a time, for you all sales are final and no refunds are offered.
> 
> Please do not order if you cant be patient for us to build them, Thanks.



Good strategy for the Daemoness page.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> I was just browsing the Lone Wolf Audio page. Noticed this:
> 
> 
> 
> Good strategy for the Daemoness page.



IANAL, but it seems that simply writing that is not enough to make it legal in the UK. The gov.uk and Which links explain quite well.

The £600 is a payment towards the product. It is not a fee for reserving the place. Furthermore, as Daemoness did not incur losses by your cancellation of a build they did not start, they do not seem to have a right to keep your money. 

They could keep a cancellation fee covering the administrative costs associated with the refund. Barnes or another assistant on presumably <£50/hr, that fee shouldn’t be much for the 10 minutes to do a bank transfer. 

Furthermore, this is not an issue of patience alone. It’s about expectations and trust. Looking at the current state of affairs (ghosting customers, dodgy builds etc), I no longer have the confidence in the company to deliver what I have begun to pay for.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> IANAL, but it seems that simply writing that is not enough to make it legal in the UK. The gov.uk and Which links explain quite well.
> 
> The £600 is a payment towards the product. It is not a fee for reserving the place. Furthermore, as Daemoness did not incur losses by your cancellation of a build they did not start, they do not seem to have a right to keep your money.
> 
> They could keep a cancellation fee covering the administrative costs associated with the refund. Barnes or another assistant on presumably <£50/hr, that fee shouldn’t be much for the 10 minutes to do a bank transfer.
> 
> Furthermore, this is not an issue of patience alone. It’s about expectations and trust. Looking at the current state of affairs (ghosting customers, dodgy builds etc), I no longer have the confidence in the company to deliver what I have begun to pay for.



Stopped reading at ANAL

j/k, but ya, I mean, I don't disagree with any of that. But Dylan was fairly up front with it potentially being a long build time. I think he should just be even more strict about it, to the point of saying, "hey, if you can't handle the waits and uncertainty that come with these kinds of builds don't bother". Because he has a long list as it is, so why take on customers that are going to be a PITA? It just seems like added work and annoyance when plenty of people are willing to wait for his builds. And when enough people aren't willing to wait for his builds, the queue size drops, and the wait times improve. It remedies itself.


----------



## Vyn

narad said:


> Stopped reading at ANAL
> 
> j/k, but ya, I mean, I don't disagree with any of that. But Dylan was fairly up front with it potentially being a long build time. I think he should just be even more strict about it, to the point of saying, "hey, if you can't handle the waits and uncertainty that come with these kinds of builds don't bother". Because he has a long list as it is, so why take on customers that are going to be a PITA? It just seems like added work and annoyance when plenty of people are willing to wait for his builds. And when enough people aren't willing to wait for his builds, the queue size drops, and the wait times improve. It remedies itself.



The issue there is that people dropping out of the queue and getting refunded may actually be enough for Daemoness to go under. If anything people people dropping out of the queue is just going to guarantee no one gets a guitar I think.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

Vyn said:


> The issue there is that people dropping out of the queue and getting refunded may actually be enough for Daemoness to go under. If anything people people dropping out of the queue is just going to guarantee no one gets a guitar I think.



if the wait time goes over 30 months then the option to sell your spot in queue would help here. those who lost interest, had financial problems, or can no longer wait could opt out.

dylan gets to keep the money, new customer gets to keep the same spot in the build batch, exiting customer doesn't lose money and no hard feelings.

the sell price should be the same as down payment. im sure that for every person who drops out, there would be 5 guys willing to take their place and have the patience to wait it out.


----------



## mehegama

M3CHK1LLA said:


> if the wait time goes over 30 months then the option to sell your spot in queue would help here. those who lost interest, had financial problems, or can no longer wait could opt out.
> 
> dylan gets to keep the money, new customer gets to keep the same spot in the build batch, exiting customer doesn't lose money and no hard feelings.
> 
> the sell price should be the same as down payment. im sure that for every person who drops out, there would be 5 guys willing to take their place and have the patience to wait it out.


That is actually a good idea and a win win for all parties. The issue is that Dylan not being professional at all ( he was supposed to post a statement by wednesday - don’t hold your breath about it) I don’t see how can he organize such an admin nightmare, when he does not even know how many guitars he has in his own irder book.


----------



## mehegama

Flappydoodle said:


> IANAL, but it seems that simply writing that is not enough to make it legal in the UK. The gov.uk and Which links explain quite well.
> 
> The £600 is a payment towards the product. It is not a fee for reserving the place. Furthermore, as Daemoness did not incur losses by your cancellation of a build they did not start, they do not seem to have a right to keep your money.
> 
> They could keep a cancellation fee covering the administrative costs associated with the refund. Barnes or another assistant on presumably <£50/hr, that fee shouldn’t be much for the 10 minutes to do a bank transfer.
> 
> Furthermore, this is not an issue of patience alone. It’s about expectations and trust. Looking at the current state of affairs (ghosting customers, dodgy builds etc), I no longer have the confidence in the company to deliver what I have begun to pay for.


Exactly, this is what i be been saying for some time now. The issue imo is that he probably has already used the money on living expenses ( the ponzi scheme/pyramid we mentioned before). In which case if all people come and ask for a refund at the same time he ll go bust. That s how all pyramid schemes colapse


----------



## narad

Vyn said:


> The issue there is that people dropping out of the queue and getting refunded may actually be enough for Daemoness to go under. If anything people people dropping out of the queue is just going to guarantee no one gets a guitar I think.



It's possible but really no reason to think that's the case. Until there's some indication that he's used up all the deposit money, that's just negative speculation. Feel free to worry about it, but I don't imagine implementing a refund program for those whose builds have exceeded some amount of time, like 3 years, would create some unsustainable flood of refunds.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> It's possible but really no reason to think that's the case. Until there's some indication that he's used up all the deposit money, that's just negative speculation. Feel free to worry about it, but I don't imagine implementing a refund program for those whose builds have exceeded some amount of time, like 3 years, would create some unsustainable flood of refunds.


I hope you are right on this. But unless he makes his statement we can only speculate, given the current evidence


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Stopped reading at ANAL
> 
> j/k, but ya, I mean, I don't disagree with any of that. But Dylan was fairly up front with it potentially being a long build time. I think he should just be even more strict about it, to the point of saying, "hey, if you can't handle the waits and uncertainty that come with these kinds of builds don't bother". Because he has a long list as it is, so why take on customers that are going to be a PITA? It just seems like added work and annoyance when plenty of people are willing to wait for his builds. And when enough people aren't willing to wait for his builds, the queue size drops, and the wait times improve. It remedies itself.



Sure. It’s true that if I knew it was 60+ months, I may not have put a deposit. But now my worry isn’t so much about waiting. It’s me doubting whether this company can actually deliver me a guitar at all. And that sucks because I do love his work.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Vyn said:


> The issue there is that people dropping out of the queue and getting refunded may actually be enough for Daemoness to go under. If anything people people dropping out of the queue is just going to guarantee no one gets a guitar I think.



Maybe. But if we’re honest, nobody should be doing this for charity. I paid a down payment towards a product I want. I met Dylan and he’s a nice guy, but I also wouldn’t gift somebody I met 1-2x with £600 to run their business. 

If the deposits have been spent, whether on personal expenses or business expenses, it means that this was not a sustainable business model. If it requires constant new deposits to stay afloat (thus, ever increasing the wait list) then it basically is a pyramid scheme.


----------



## Vyn

Flappydoodle said:


> Maybe. But if we’re honest, nobody should be doing this for charity. I paid a down payment towards a product I want. I met Dylan and he’s a nice guy, but I also wouldn’t gift somebody I met 1-2x with £600 to run their business.
> 
> If the deposits have been spent, whether on personal expenses or business expenses, it means that this was not a sustainable business model. If it requires constant new deposits to stay afloat (thus, ever increasing the wait list) then it basically is a pyramid scheme.



This is kind of what I'm worried about (and has been the reason some luthiers have gone out of business in the past).


----------



## oracles

narad said:


> I was just browsing the Lone Wolf Audio page. Noticed this:
> 
> 
> 
> Good strategy for the Daemoness page.



I wouldnt use ol "I'll mail explosives to your house" Anastasio as a model of anything other than what you should strive NOT to be. Dude is straight up scum.


----------



## SDMFVan

IbanezDaemon said:


> Well I've just got off the phone with Dylan after a 45 minute conversation so I have some info for you guys.
> 
> 1: He is going to make a statement on here to let you know where things are at. That should be in *the next 7 days* and he will then be asking anyone with queries to get in touch with him again.


----------



## mbardu




----------



## mehegama

Seems that Dylan is orbiting a black hole, that's why ALL time related quotes by him are off by orders of magnitude..


----------



## Bettershredthandead

At this point, its feeling like one of those 'leading you on' kinda relationships. Never would have guessed a guitar order would have the same effect.


----------



## mehegama

i think it s the feeling of losing confidence that you ll ever have one of those pieces of art that has sunk in..


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Or maybe its another one of those 'Dylan is the artist' kinda things where he's using silence to make an artistic statement here on the state the world.....

Yeah no, I'm losing alot of confidence here too.

#eyestrain?


----------



## spudmunkey

mehegama said:


> Seems that Dylan is orbiting a black hole, that's why ALL time related quotes by him are off by orders of magnitude..



Ahh...time dillation. Of course! He's travelling too close the speed of light....ooh...I just got an idea for a cool custom guitar. Is the order book still open?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

spudmunkey said:


> Is the order book still open?



Ready to wait an indefinite amount of time?


----------



## mehegama

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh...time dillation. Of course! He's travelling too close the speed of light....ooh...I just got an idea for a cool custom guitar. Is the order book still open?


Of course! the order book is open written in huge letters. Only issue is unless you go close to the black hole you ll wait an infinite time to get out of the waiting list. To start the build you need to manipulate time in higher than 3 dimensions.. good luck..


----------



## Seabeast2000

spudmunkey said:


> Ahh...time dillation. Of course! He's travelling too close the speed of light....ooh...I just got an idea for a cool custom guitar. Is the order book still open?


This would explain the stretched earth time tables.


----------



## feraledge

mbardu said:


>


Dude, don’t make me hit reply to see a gif.


----------



## feraledge

From a sheer business standpoint, it’s hard to imagine the viability of Daemoness for Dylan. If his builds went from say 20 in a year to 20 in three years, then it’s not a livable wage even. If he’s outsourcing anything, then it’s looking risky, but add in an employee? 
Dylan’s an artist. He should be living good off this, but with the rate he’s going, burn out for himself and his customers is inevitable. 
I REALLY hope that isn’t the case and things turn around.


----------



## mbardu

feraledge said:


> From a sheer business standpoint, it’s hard to imagine the viability of Daemoness for Dylan. If his builds went from say 20 in a year to 20 in three years, then it’s not a livable wage even. If he’s outsourcing anything, then it’s looking risky, but add in an employee?
> Dylan’s an artist. He should be living good off this, but with the rate he’s going, burn out for himself and his customers is inevitable.
> I REALLY hope that isn’t the case and things turn around.



If anything he should be charging more, he would still have a waiting list, but a smaller one and less builds, so he'd be less backed up with the same $$$.


----------



## mbardu

feraledge said:


> Dude, don’t make me hit reply to see a gif.



Haha gotem


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> If anything he should be charging more, he would still have a waiting list, but a smaller one and less builds, so he'd be less backed up with the same $$$.



He's stated many times that he's wanted to keep prices down so that young actual metal musicians can afford his guitars. Maybe he needs an age-based tiered pricing like Tinder. If you're 45 your Daemoness costs $10k.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

er....let's not give him any ideas until my build is over.


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> er....let's not give him any ideas until my build is over.



Whoops  sorry, I forgot the "increase prices after the fact" part was also a tricky topic.

Of course I meant in the future, and only hypothetically in order to make the business more sustainable on the future order book.
I was not talking about customers already waiting.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

10,000 dollar guitar here I come...or not?


----------



## spudmunkey

mehegama said:


> Of course! the order book is open written in huge letters. Only issue is unless you go close to the black hole you ll wait an infinite time to get out of the waiting list. To start the build you need to manipulate time in higher than 3 dimensions.. good luck..



Just whatever you do, don't get a Zeno's Paradox theme build.

Ironically, with this build, you will get frequent updates, but they will all just say, "It's halfway done."


----------



## IbanezDaemon

SDMFVan said:


>



That's what he told me. I can't force him to actually do what he said.


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> That's what he told me. I can't force him to actually do what he said.


You did the best you could, and I thank you for this. It just shows how seriously he is taking the situation and how much respect he shows to his clients. It a shame and i m not very positive i ll ever get this guitar


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> You did the best you could, and I thank you for this. It just shows how seriously he is taking the situation and how much respect he shows to his clients. It a shame and i m not very positive i ll ever get this guitar



I'll fire him a message in a few hours time.


----------



## Flappydoodle

IbanezDaemon said:


> I'll fire him a message in a few hours time.



The fact that this is the most active thread on this forum, by far, should tell him that a lot of people are keenly waiting for some sort of communication.

Really appreciate you acting as a middle-man here, under no obligation to do so at all. Thank you.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Flappydoodle said:


> The fact that this is the most active thread on this forum, by far, should tell him that a lot of people are keenly waiting for some sort of communication.
> 
> Really appreciate you acting as a middle-man here, under no obligation to do so at all. Thank you.



Cheers. Well I am interested as well as to what is going on. I have, let me see, a guitar nearing completion which I have paid for in full, a guitar on loan to Dylan, several deposits which I doubled up on (makes the final balance a bit easier to pay when the time comes) and two more advance payments for my builds in this batch to get underway....off the top of my head that would come in at around the £13,000 mark. Of course my balance has to be paid after that for outstanding builds.

I did have some correspondence with Dylan this morning. He is currently working on that statement and it is going to be a lengthy one by all accounts. I hate posting this info in case it doesn't materialise in time and leaves you guys disappointed but he did say hopefully it will be ready in the next few days...possibly Monday. I genuinely hope this is the case!

I'm gonna be offline for around 24 hours as I'm heading off on the lash  so won't be able to reply until then but all the info I got today is above.


----------



## diagrammatiks

this thread made me check the asian classifieds.

3 used daemoness for sale..listed at 

10k 

8k

6k


----------



## narad

The asian classifieds?


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> Cheers. Well I am interested as well as to what is going on. I have, let me see, a guitar nearing completion which I have paid for in full, a guitar on loan to Dylan, several deposits which I doubled up on (makes the final balance a bit easier to pay when the time comes) and two more advance payments for my builds in this batch to get underway....off the top of my head that would come in at around the £13,000 mark. Of course my balance has to be paid after that for outstanding builds.
> 
> I did have some correspondence with Dylan this morning. He is currently working on that statement and it is going to be a lengthy one by all accounts. I hate posting this info in case it doesn't materialise in time and leaves you guys disappointed but he did say hopefully it will be ready in the next few days...possibly Monday. I genuinely hope this is the case!
> 
> I'm gonna be offline for around 24 hours as I'm heading off on the lash  so won't be able to reply until then but all the info I got today is above.


Wow.. you are really invested! at least your builds are almost done. Thanks again for the info. I hope this time he comes clean and give some honest timelines. But not "guide"/optimistic estimates. He needs to say where he is in the queue. 
To be honest given what we know (he is finishing guitars from late 2015), I think the only viable solution to this problem is for people that their builds have not started yet (i.e. he has not had any losses on these orders) and have passed the 30/36 months wait, to either get refunds or be able to sell their spots to people willing to wait. In that way everyone will be happy.


----------



## narad

Selling spots seems like a terrible idea. Incentivizing having a slot you don't use, while dicking over everyone else who waited. It's basically queue hopping for profit.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Selling spots seems like a terrible idea. Incentivizing having a slot you don't use, while dicking over everyone else who waited. It's basically queue hopping for profit.


I did not mean it in a profiteering way. More like moving the existing people waiting, to the positions of those who want out and the new people would get the positions of those moved forward. With the same money, there will not be any profit. Just those who want out they ll get their money back and those in in these now forwarded spots, will know that they ll get their guitars in 4 years rather than 5-6 and we ll all be happy.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Dylan doesn't seem to have his shit together enough for that to work out.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Dylan doesn't seem to have his shit together enough for that to work out.


I know. It's more wishful thinking. I still believe he doesn't even know how many orders he currently has in his book.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> The asian classifieds?



well it's more like just china. but there's one app that covers the entire country.


----------



## diagrammatiks

@narad

actually it appears to be just one dude selling all these guitars...
maybe he's a store?

who knows. I rarely get jealous of stuff and I'm jealous of this stack. also horrified.

it's like if instagram had a buy it now button. and they just ship you whatever you see.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

diagrammatiks said:


> @narad
> 
> actually it appears to be just one dude selling all these guitars...
> maybe he's a store?
> 
> who knows. I rarely get jealous of stuff and I'm jealous of this stack. also horrified.
> 
> it's like if instagram had a buy it now button. and they just ship you whatever you see.
> View attachment 83333



ok, that is like the ultimate man can cave as far as I'm concerned. Mine would look like that, only with slightly less action figure type stuff. I said slightly less...


----------



## Blytheryn

diagrammatiks said:


> @narad
> 
> actually it appears to be just one dude selling all these guitars...
> maybe he's a store?
> 
> who knows. I rarely get jealous of stuff and I'm jealous of this stack. also horrified.
> 
> it's like if instagram had a buy it now button. and they just ship you whatever you see.
> View attachment 83333



You being obscure with this on purpose?


----------



## diagrammatiks

Blytheryn said:


> You being obscure with this on purpose?



u wot m8


----------



## KnightBrolaire

diagrammatiks said:


> u wot m8


he wants the deets on the site so he can see the cimmerians for sale bro


----------



## diagrammatiks

KnightBrolaire said:


> he wants the deets on the site so he can see the cimmerians for sale bro



I mean I can pull the pictures for you. but they are for sale on an app you can't download in a country you can't go to by a person you cannot communicate with. 

also it's not very well regulated so I need to check to see if he's actually selling stuff or just showing off cool pictures.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

The 8 string Daemoness! That one has went round the globe 3 times I think. I lost track of it a few years ago.

Not to derail the thread but can you get a pic of the Viks? I think one of them was my old one. 



IbanezDaemon said:


> I'm gonna be offline for around 24 hours as I'm heading off on the lash



Off on the beer at 4 on a Saturday. Living the life  

I miss the pub so much


----------



## Bettershredthandead

diagrammatiks said:


> View attachment 83336



I can't remember for sure, but wasn't this one of those that Dylan put up for sale on FB after it was completed? It was one of those builds I believe unless I'm getting it mixed up with something else he put up that way before.

If this guy's legit, it looks like it ended up in Japan(?).


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> @narad
> 
> actually it appears to be just one dude selling all these guitars...
> maybe he's a store?
> 
> who knows. I rarely get jealous of stuff and I'm jealous of this stack. also horrified.
> 
> it's like if instagram had a buy it now button. and they just ship you whatever you see.
> View attachment 83333



Oh, I know that guy from the Caparison forums. I think he's UK-based actually, or was.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> Oh, I know that guy from the Caparison forums. I think he's UK-based actually, or was.



ya I feel like he's not Chinese. 
but he also seems to have enough money and resources to hire a guy whose only job is to post all his guitars and swag on a china only used stuff platform.

shrug emoji.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

I think the guy is on this forum too. Although he only has like two posts. He may have picked up this Blackmachine right off this forum:

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/blackmachine-b6.329242/

See it in the man cave photo anywhere?


----------



## prlgmnr

We're going to need that Blade Runner thingy in here at this rate.

ENHANCE


ENHANCE

Yes, I can see the reflection in the screen of the Kemper, it's actually Lord Lucan.


----------



## Flappydoodle

IbanezDaemon said:


> Cheers. Well I am interested as well as to what is going on. I have, let me see, a guitar nearing completion which I have paid for in full, a guitar on loan to Dylan, several deposits which I doubled up on (makes the final balance a bit easier to pay when the time comes) and two more advance payments for my builds in this batch to get underway....off the top of my head that would come in at around the £13,000 mark. Of course my balance has to be paid after that for outstanding builds.
> 
> I did have some correspondence with Dylan this morning. He is currently working on that statement and it is going to be a lengthy one by all accounts. I hate posting this info in case it doesn't materialise in time and leaves you guys disappointed but he did say hopefully it will be ready in the next few days...possibly Monday. I genuinely hope this is the case!
> 
> I'm gonna be offline for around 24 hours as I'm heading off on the lash  so won't be able to reply until then but all the info I got today is above.



Wow, holy shit. At least your builds are somewhat near completion.

Again, I just find myself lacking faith in a person who takes two weeks to write a statement :/


----------



## Flappydoodle

Sermo Lupi said:


> _TL;DR: court is complicated--don't sue unless you absolutely have to. Private settlement is more likely. It also doesn't seem like anyone so far has even submitted a Letter Before Claim, let alone any of the other steps required to sue in small claims court._
> 
> Without giving TMI about a shitty landlord, I've done a lot of research on this recently and have just spoken with a solicitor about submitting a claim to the county court.
> 
> I am not a solicitor myself but I think I can provide some relevant information.
> 
> It seems as though there is an assumption in this thread that small claims court is the first step. It isn't. In fact, there's a whole pre-court protocol that you have to follow before you can even submit a claim. How closely you follow that protocol will have a big impact on your success in court (including whether the court will even hear your case); moreover, how much correspondence you have with Dylan beforehand will either strengthen or diminish your application depending on what lengths you've gone to to get your money back.
> 
> In my opinion, issuing a claim in the county court is basically the nuclear option. You are suing someone, there's no two ways about it. Having said that, the process for small claims is relatively inexpensive, simple, and it is an absolutely valid and sometimes necessary course of action for dealing with unscrupulous people. But you also need to be compassionate and recognise the impact that litigation has on people. It is a last resort against someone refusing you a legal right.
> 
> If it ever escalated to that stage for any of Dylan's customers, I reckon Daemoness would be absolutely tanked for months due to how small claims works. All his existing and future customers would be impacted by this. For example, you can't claim legal fees for any actions _leading up to_ small claims court. Your court expenses are often covered, but you wouldn't normally have a solicitor represent you, you'd represent yourself. Likewise, while a solicitor's advice is helpful _before _you go to court, Dylan likely wouldn't use one because they usually bill at £200/hr in southern England. So he'd be doing most of the legwork himself, going through old emails, trying to get bank statements, researching law online, and so on. All this takes a lot of time and Dylan is apparently already burning the midnight oil to do endorsee builds, etc.
> 
> Not a single person I've seen comment in this thread so far has a case. Mostly because I haven't seen any evidence that Dylan is actually refusing refunds to people as opposed to just being hard to contact.
> 
> So what would a proper claims process look like?
> 
> Contact Dylan and express your concern over his workload and completion times. If you do not agree with the reasonableness of his delays, state that you'd like your money back.
> If Dylan tells you that the deposit was non-refundable, ask him why. I'm sure he has good reasons for requiring it. Yet you probably also have good reasons for wanting your money back. For example, if the build times are literally double what he stated they'd be, tell him that you believe the verbal/informal contract you had is no longer valid and that the goods/services he sold you is not as described.
> If Dylan still refuses to refund you, say that you will consider reporting his business to Trading Standards as you believe his professional practices are misleading and unfair. The process for doing that is outlined on this Citizen's Advice webpage.
> If Dylan still refuses, to get your money back you will likely have to go to small claims court. Before you can do that, you need to draft something called a Letter Before Claim. This Citizen's Advice page covers most of that process, but their advice could be more comprehensive in my experience. The Ministry of Justice's pre-action protocol requires:
> _(a) the claimant writing to the defendant with concise details of the claim. The letter should include the basis on which the claim is made, a summary of the facts, what the claimant wants from the defendant, and if money, how the amount is calculated;
> (b) the defendant responding within a reasonable time - 14 days in a straight forward case and no more than 3 months in a very complex one._
> I doubt Dylan would still refuse to refund the money at this point, but if he does, you should mention in your Letter Before Claim that you are open to the option of Alternative Dispute Resolution (ADR). This can involve a whole bunch of things, but the most common thing is a civil mediator. A civil mediator is usually a solicitor who will provide unbiased and impartial information to both parties to help them decide whether they need to go to court to resolve the issue. Sometimes a compromise can be made, or one of the parties will release their side of the dispute based on the advice given.
> Failing all of the above, you issue proceedings in the county court and hope that you've collected enough information and have done enough in the pre-action phase for the court to rule that your actions were reasonable enough to demand a hearing. If the court does grant a hearing, you'll have to represent yourself or pay a solicitor to do so (e.g. if you live abroad); if you choose the latter, I would estimate that your combined costs for representation and issuing a claim would be greater than the £600 deposit your suing for.
> With regard to the 'no formal contract' thing Max mentioned, I don't think that will matter. There is a reasonable expectation when making the deposit that Dylan would complete the work within the estimated timeframe. If anything, the lack of a formal contract will help the buyer's case because simply saying that deposits are non-refundable doesn't include any kind of provision stipulating that he can keep the money if the contract terms are not met. The court might just say that the deposit scheme was a glorified verbal agreement to render goods and services over an unusually long period (24 months that turned into 60).
> 
> Above all, just be compassionate and do your homework. Courts hate timewasters. It's doubtful you make it to court if you don't follow the pre-action protocol. And if you do follow the protocol, it is designed to maximise the likelihood that parties in dispute settle privately out of court.
> 
> As a final two cents: I get the impression that Dylan is being a bit naive on the business side and gotten himself in over his head. It sounds like he is having trouble keeping up with his work and doesn't want to admit this. Life isn't all sunshine and daises like Social Media makes it seem--there's probably reasons for what's happened and unfortunately we're hearing these second- or third-hand rather than from Dylan himself. If Dylan is hiding things, that's not a great sign but it isn't necessarily criminal. Especially not if his customers are only lamenting that he isn't working faster rather than demanding refunds.
> 
> Anger is worthless if you're not making a good faith effort to terminate your business with Daemoness and get your money back. Likewise, Dylan has a right to hear your complaints and try to remedy these, including by refund. It is unreasonable to try to sue him without notice, and doing so would probably have severe impacts on Dylan and his other customers.



This is an informative post. 

What would happen where the company/person has made themselves difficult to contact (for example, website email address goes to a dead inbox), and when they do not respond to emails? Presumably they can't just not reply to your request for a refund? I presume there must be some sort of "time out" where, if you have made attempts to contact them, and there's no response, you have done enough.

I can not find Daemoness or Dylan on Companies House, nor any mention of a Ltd company on their website. Thus, there is no official company address to contact, and much of what you said above relates to businesses. Does it also apply to sole traders?


----------



## mehegama

Flappydoodle said:


> This is an informative post.
> 
> What would happen where the company/person has made themselves difficult to contact (for example, website email address goes to a dead inbox), and when they do not respond to emails? Presumably they can't just not reply to your request for a refund? I presume there must be some sort of "time out" where, if you have made attempts to contact them, and there's no response, you have done enough.
> 
> I can not find Daemoness or Dylan on Companies House, nor any mention of a Ltd company on their website. Thus, there is no official company address to contact, and much of what you said above relates to businesses. Does it also apply to sole traders?


They have the address in the spec sheet. I assume you send a letter that requires a signature and that counts as proof that he got the letter.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Flappydoodle said:


> This is an informative post.
> 
> What would happen where the company/person has made themselves difficult to contact (for example, website email address goes to a dead inbox), and when they do not respond to emails? Presumably they can't just not reply to your request for a refund? I presume there must be some sort of "time out" where, if you have made attempts to contact them, and there's no response, you have done enough.
> 
> I can not find Daemoness or Dylan on Companies House, nor any mention of a Ltd company on their website. Thus, there is no official company address to contact, and much of what you said above relates to businesses. Does it also apply to sole traders?



I am not a solicitor, but to my knowledge it would be a civil claim. How Dylan's business is registered shouldn't matter. 

If you would be alleging that you went to extensive lengths to contact Dylan but it was impossible, you'd have to prove that. So keep records of any emails you send and show that you sent them at regular intervals with no response. Likewise, make sure you can substantiate any claims you're making abut closed email accounts, bounceback emails, etc. 

The actual answer to your question is a combination of: 

Write a Letter Before Claim and send it. Preferably you'd do this by post with a signature so you can prove the defendant received the letter. 
Wait 14 days after submitting your Letter Before Claim.
If no response, submit your small claim to the county court.
Wait 14 more days to have your claim acknowledged by the defendant. 
If the defendant acknowledges it, wait 28 further days for a reply
Depending on your reaction to the reply, you'll be asked about settlement or mediation. Mediation is free through the court, so that may be a valid option. Failing that, I believe the court will give you a timeline for making a decision and/or scheduling a hearing. 
That's the general process at least. 

Are you really having such trouble contacting Dylan? Before I'd even attempt any of the above, I'd try to give him a heads up over email, text and by telephone call first.


----------



## mehegama

Sermo Lupi said:


> I am not a solicitor, but to my knowledge it would be a civil claim. How Dylan's business is registered shouldn't matter.
> 
> If you would be alleging that you went to extensive lengths to contact Dylan but it was impossible, you'd have to prove that. So keep records of any emails you send and show that you sent them at regular intervals with no response. Likewise, make sure you can substantiate any claims you're making abut closed email accounts, bounceback emails, etc.
> 
> The actual answer to your question is a combination of:
> 
> Write a Letter Before Claim and send it. Preferably you'd do this by post with a signature so you can prove the defendant received the letter.
> Wait 14 days after submitting your Letter Before Claim.
> If no response, submit your small claim to the county court.
> Wait 14 more days to have your claim acknowledged by the defendant.
> If the defendant acknowledges it, wait 28 further days for a reply
> Depending on your reaction to the reply, you'll be asked about settlement or mediation. Mediation is free through the court, so that may be a valid option. Failing that, I believe the court will give you a timeline for making a decision and/or scheduling a hearing.
> That's the general process at least.
> 
> Are you really having such trouble contacting Dylan? Before I'd even attempt any of the above, I'd try to give him a heads up over email, text and by telephone call first.


Unfortunately multiple members here (including myself) have tried contacted him via new email, old email, the site form, fb, ig with NO REPLIES at all. Some people have a more personal relationship with him like @IbanezDaemon (thank god he is kind enough to act as a point of contact). In other words he has pretty much ghosted everyone else he does not know personally.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

mehegama said:


> Unfortunately multiple members here (including myself) have tried contacted him via new email, old email, the site form, fb, ig with NO REPLIES at all. Some people have a more personal relationship with him like @IbanezDaemon (thank god he is kind enough to act as a point of contact). In other words he has pretty much ghosted everyone else he does not know personally.



Does Dylan not give out a phone number on invoices or anything? He does do invoices, right?

I'm hoping the upcoming letter addresses business practices and not just plans for working through the queue...


----------



## mehegama

The spec sheet has the address and the VAT number which is valid. I don't think many people have his phone number. I guess you need to know him personally to have it. I don't think there is a business dedicated number


----------



## Flappydoodle

mehegama said:


> They have the address in the spec sheet. I assume you send a letter that requires a signature and that counts as proof that he got the letter.



I have the address also, and I've visited the workshop before.

Point is, I can't find any limited company. In the UK, a limited company has a registered address which you would use for official mail purposes.



Sermo Lupi said:


> Does Dylan not give out a phone number on invoices or anything? He does do invoices, right?
> 
> I'm hoping the upcoming letter addresses business practices and not just plans for working through the queue...



No invoice. No official receipt of payment either.

You get a quote sheet with your guitar specs. Then transfer £600 by bank transfer to a Santander account named (D T O Humphries), which I can only presume is Dylan's personal account and not a business account. Then I got an email saying they confirm the receipt of the £600.

And yes, I'm hoping for that sort of update too, but not holding my breath. My expectations are pretty low unfortunately.



Sermo Lupi said:


> I am not a solicitor, but to my knowledge it would be a civil claim. How Dylan's business is registered shouldn't matter.
> 
> If you would be alleging that you went to extensive lengths to contact Dylan but it was impossible, you'd have to prove that. So keep records of any emails you send and show that you sent them at regular intervals with no response. Likewise, make sure you can substantiate any claims you're making abut closed email accounts, bounceback emails, etc.
> 
> The actual answer to your question is a combination of:
> 
> Write a Letter Before Claim and send it. Preferably you'd do this by post with a signature so you can prove the defendant received the letter.
> Wait 14 days after submitting your Letter Before Claim.
> If no response, submit your small claim to the county court.
> Wait 14 more days to have your claim acknowledged by the defendant.
> If the defendant acknowledges it, wait 28 further days for a reply
> Depending on your reaction to the reply, you'll be asked about settlement or mediation. Mediation is free through the court, so that may be a valid option. Failing that, I believe the court will give you a timeline for making a decision and/or scheduling a hearing.
> That's the general process at least.
> 
> Are you really having such trouble contacting Dylan? Before I'd even attempt any of the above, I'd try to give him a heads up over email, text and by telephone call first.



Thanks. I will start by emailing the official email address which I have been provided - the one on my quotation sheet and the one on their website. I know there's also a gmail address, but nobody has officially told me that, so I shouldn't be expected to be searching web forums to track him down.

And yes, I'd look to send regular emails until getting a response. I always keep emails, and that includes the confirmation of £600 payment for my build etc.

I could also write a letter. But I would have to write to the workshop, rather than any official business address (which is where official HMRC notices etc would go).

There's no phone number for their workshop, and I don't have his personal mobile number. Email is the only way I have to reach him. By all accounts, dude simply doesn't respond. But I will go through the process anyway.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Flappydoodle said:


> You get a quote sheet with your guitar specs. Then transfer £600 by bank transfer to a Santander account named (D T O Humphries), which I can only presume is Dylan's personal account and not a business account. Then I got an email saying they confirm the receipt of the £600.
> 
> I will start by emailing the official email address which I have been provided - the one on my quotation sheet and the one on their website. I know there's also a gmail address, but nobody has officially told me that, so I shouldn't be expected to be searching web forums to track him down.
> 
> And yes, I'd look to send regular emails until getting a response. I always keep emails, and that includes the confirmation of £600 payment for my build etc.
> 
> I could also write a letter. But I would have to write to the workshop, rather than any official business address (which is where official HMRC notices etc would go).



To be clear, the difference between Dylan and Daemoness is not meaningful in this context. You'd be suing Dylan as an individual with whom you've done business. 

The invoice and receipt process sounds fine to me, just a bit low-tech. A receipt on letterhead is probably better for him in the future. Using a personal bank account is perfectly suitable as well. These are typical small business practices rather than red flags, aside from the fact Dylan is apparently really hard to get a hold of. That's not professional or acceptable. 

As for how you ought to contact him, I sympathise with your frustration but I would strongly recommend you use every available avenue to establish a line of communication. Don't refuse to use the updated email address just because it isn't on the website and you feel it was unfair to find it on these message boards. The point is that you have that email address _now_, which other users have saved you the headache of finding on your own. You should ask IbanezDaemon for Dylan's phone number privately as well. 

As I said in my other post, you really don't want to sue someone. For your sake as well as theirs. Path of least resistance and all that. 

If I were you, I'd send a friendly but firm email requesting a refund to all known contact addresses, and try to text Dylan or have IbanezDaemon text him for you. Wait a week. If he doesn't get back to you, write a Letter Before Claim and send it by email and by post to his workshop and follow the remainder of the claim process I outlined previously.

The goal is to get your money back, not to cause either party further aggravation. Take the money and run. It's the best you can hope for if you want out.


----------



## feraledge

I just gotta say, it sucks to see things going this way with Daemoness. 
Not an ounce of blame for anyone looking to take action, but just that it was such a cool brand and he was doing amazing work and not just... ya know... Decibel.


----------



## Vyn

Shouldn't have come back to this thread after re-reading the BRJ thread, jesus this thread reads in a whole different light after that.


----------



## mehegama

Vyn said:


> Shouldn't have come back to this thread after re-reading the BRJ thread, jesus this thread reads in a whole different light after that.


As I m not super familiar with the details of whst happened with BRJ, Do you think that’s where this is going?


----------



## Vyn

mehegama said:


> As I m not super familiar with the details of whst happened with BRJ, Do you think that’s where this is going?



I don't think it's going the way of BRJ however fuck me there's a few of the same lines being said. I have hope that Dylan is less of a shit human than BRJ.


----------



## mehegama

Vyn said:


> I don't think it's going the way of BRJ however fuck me there's a few of the same lines being said. I have hope that Dylan is less of a shit human than BRJ.


I agree but as with the case of BRJ, it is so easy for a shop to go from a prestigious place to nothing is just few months time. By the way can you point me to the BRJ thread? I m curious to get more details about that fiasco.


----------



## Vyn

mehegama said:


> I agree but as with the case of BRJ, it is so easy for a shop to go from a prestigious place to nothing is just few months time. By the way can you point me to the BRJ thread? I m curious to get more details about that fiasco.



Order take-out, make a coffee or grab a drink, it's 270 pages...

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-for-updates-for-by-customers-ad-free.138377/


----------



## mehegama

Vyn said:


> Order take-out, make a coffee or grab a drink, it's 270 pages...
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-for-updates-for-by-customers-ad-free.138377/


Thanks!


----------



## mehegama

Vyn said:


> Order take-out, make a coffee or grab a drink, it's 270 pages...
> 
> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...-for-updates-for-by-customers-ad-free.138377/


Damn.. the similarities are uncanny.. the way things developed and how people reacted initially in the delays, being defensive, are almost identical. In the end of the day it is simple maths. If the business model does not work, it will reach a point of collapse.. I really really hope this is not the same situation.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Eh, Bernie was a hot head, poor businessman (drove BCR into the ground, twice!), and scammer before the Black Friday debacle.

The situation then and now are quite different...for the time being at least. 

Unfortunately, extended time frames and poor communication are something of a hallmark of small builders, even in the internet age. 

Not excusing Dylan's conduct, but Bernie literally went out to scam people.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, Bernie was a hot head, poor businessman (drove BCR into the ground, twice!), and scammer before the Black Friday debacle.
> 
> The situation then and now are quite different...for the time being at least.
> 
> Unfortunately, extended time frames and poor communication are something of a hallmark of small builders, even in the internet age.
> 
> Not excusing Dylan's conduct, but Bernie literally went out to scam people.


I agree. I m not saying it s the same situation or Dylan is like Bernie. Was talking about the evolution of the thread.


----------



## diagrammatiks

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, Bernie was a hot head, poor businessman (drove BCR into the ground, twice!), and scammer before the Black Friday debacle.
> 
> The situation then and now are quite different...for the time being at least.
> 
> Unfortunately, extended time frames and poor communication are something of a hallmark of small builders, even in the internet age.
> 
> Not excusing Dylan's conduct, but Bernie literally went out to scam people.



that being the case we’ve been here so many times.


----------



## narad

The similarities are uncanny... the lack of metal. the non-cylindrical shape.. no raviolis inside.


----------



## Merrekof

narad said:


> Selling spots seems like a terrible idea. Incentivizing having a slot you don't use, while dicking over everyone else who waited. It's basically queue hopping for profit.


Yep. Then you have those guys who buy all the spots they can and sell 'm at a huge profit afterwards. Remember Dave Mustaine's gear unloading earlier this year?

My best idea is Dylan to have a deposit free waiting list. And deposits are being paid when he contacts you ands says "your build is up in the next batch. I need your final specs and money"
If the first person on the list lost his or her interest or cash, go on to the next on the list. This seems like the most viable business model to me.


----------



## mehegama

Merrekof said:


> Yep. Then you have those guys who buy all the spots they can and sell 'm at a huge profit afterwards. Remember Dave Mustaine's gear unloading earlier this year?
> 
> My best idea is Dylan to have a deposit free waiting list. And deposits are being paid when he contacts you ands says "your build is up in the next batch. I need your final specs and money"
> If the first person on the list lost his or her interest or cash, go on to the next on the list. This seems like the most viable business model to me.


Yes that sounds good as well, however it does not solve the situation with people currently having to wait double the time quoted initially. Regarding the selling spots thing, I explained i did not mean it in a profiteering way. Meant it more like moving people forward, while refunding those wanting out. It will make the wait slightly less for people who don't mind the wait and also people who cannot or do not want to wait for an extra 3 year, can get their money back and keep no hard feelings.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

mehegama said:


> Damn.. the similarities are uncanny.. the way things developed and how people reacted initially in the delays, being defensive, are almost identical. In the end of the day it is simple maths. If the business model does not work, it will reach a point of collapse.. I really really hope this is not the same situation.



when you get through with brj black friday, read the vik thread...


----------



## mehegama

M3CHK1LLA said:


> when you get through with brj black friday, read the vik thread...


Deja vu? hopefully not! I really want my Cimmerian but my confidence levels that this ever happening, is 0. Note that he was suposed to post a lengthy statement last week..


----------



## Dyingsea

Unfortunately it seems to be an an all too recurring thing with popular SS.org luthiers and luthiers directly involved with the forum. There are so many it's not just BRJ and Vik threads. In fact I can't think of a single luthier who seems to have maintained any longevity here minus a couple/few years then heads out to sea it seems and not on a positive note.


----------



## possumkiller

At least there aren't influential artist forum members keeping hush about daemoness problems because they don't want to rock the boat like there was with BRJ and S7G.


----------



## cip 123

Merrekof said:


> Yep. Then you have those guys who buy all the spots they can and sell 'm at a huge profit afterwards. Remember Dave Mustaine's gear unloading earlier this year?
> 
> My best idea is Dylan to have a deposit free waiting list. And deposits are being paid when he contacts you ands says "your build is up in the next batch. I need your final specs and money"
> If the first person on the list lost his or her interest or cash, go on to the next on the list. This seems like the most viable business model to me.


That's not a viable business model though. Regardless of the current situation.

That opens a wait list to any and everyone who is slightly interested in a Daemoness. Dylan would spend half his time chasing down who is actually ready to pay on the waitlist. It might not seem like it immediately and things could be done to expedite and smooth out the process but remember it's one guy. Best case scenario he's on top of his workload (which we already know he's not) "Hey your build is up next etc" He then has to wait for a response on specs etc and payment, IF they actually want to continue, if not he has to hit up the next one thats after waiting for a response. While he has to maintain supply of raw materials such as wood, he can't do that out of pocket.

The business model could work if profits were were very good AND Dylan was extremely organised or receiving help, which we all know isn't the case or we wouldn't be here.

The simplest business model is the one that's being used, you pay, you receive. The altered model for custom items like guitars, you pay, you receive within the timeframe. The model in this case has failed but it is still the most viable model for a self employed person.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, Bernie was a hot head, poor businessman (drove BCR into the ground, twice!), and scammer before the Black Friday debacle.
> 
> The situation then and now are quite different...for the time being at least.
> 
> Unfortunately, extended time frames and poor communication are something of a hallmark of small builders, even in the internet age.
> 
> Not excusing Dylan's conduct, but Bernie literally went out to scam people.



Well...I wouldn't call Dylan cool-headed from a few things I've seen over the years, but he's definitely not into luthiery to cash in on a family legacy and scam people. 

It is worth noting that there's plenty of small builders who manage to communicate and run a business just fine alongside their work. I think it's mostly just selection bias that accounts for this forum's bad luck, as this place tends to obsess over novel, upstart ERG and metal guitar builders rather than veteran luthiers who survived the attrition.

The irony with Dylan is that his marketing on social media appears very professional. I know he probably works with a photographer for his portfolio and instagram work, but I do wonder whether the time and effort he puts into that eats into his admin time, or sets standards which are too high for regular updates for customers.


----------



## jephjacques

M3CHK1LLA said:


> when you get through with brj black friday, read the vik thread...



With the added bonus of Vik being a bigoted piece of shit


----------



## narad

cip 123 said:


> That's not a viable business model though. Regardless of the current situation.



I mean, obviously it's a viable business model -- it's been done before. There's really nothing infeasible about finding 12 guys from a sorted list who are ready to pay for a guitar, and penalizing those on the list who aren't.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Yeah it's worked plenty of times for other luthiers, I don't like how dismissive some shit becomes upon suggestion. A deposit free waitlist is consumer friendly in all ways possible, and it should be adopted where applicable for custom made products.

You have no financial obligation til your name is up, you don't feel cheated by any price increases (if any happen) when your name is called. And tire kickers filling the waitlist can be sorted and handled easily on a timed basis as well, every 6 months send out a few emails to confirm your spot and communicate any changes to the process/cost of the product. If you confirm you hold your place in line, if you don't then the builder can reach out via phone number or other means if provided to make sure the emails didn't get tossed in a spam folder.

The people who are going to order will still order, and people who joined the waitlist just to say they did will puss out and dip pushing everyone who wants a guitar further up the queue. If you're like Daemoness and you're building effectively 12 - 15 instruments a year, I don't think it's impossible to handle a few email pushes and maybe a phone call twice a year.


----------



## cip 123

narad said:


> I mean, obviously it's a viable business model -- it's been done before. There's really nothing infeasible about finding 12 guys from a sorted list who are ready to pay for a guitar, and penalizing those on the list who aren't.


It's infeasible when you already can't keep track of things with a comparatively simpler model.

For an operation with more than 1 person, I'd say it's viable. But for 1 self employed person you don't want to waste time chasing people, and then subsequently penalising others. That's a bunch of time on admin you could spend on building.


----------



## cip 123

Jonathan20022 said:


> If you're like Daemoness and you're building effectively 12 - 15 instruments a year, I don't think it's impossible to handle a few email pushes and maybe a phone call twice a year.



But that's literally the problem. 

I don't mean to sound dismissive I'm just chatting, I enjoy business/management. It just doesn't seem like a great way to handle things. It seems like it opens up a lot of unnecessary admin. Which while you provided solutions for still seem a bit unnecessary. Like if a builder is on top of his stuff and can set aside time to do it great, but this isn't the case. 

If you're building 12-15 guitars a year, then you know what you can handle, thus letting the waiting list grow exponentially is a little silly imo


----------



## diagrammatiks

cip 123 said:


> It's infeasible when you already can't keep track of things with a comparatively simpler model.
> 
> For an operation with more than 1 person, I'd say it's viable. But for 1 self employed person you don't want to waste time chasing people, and then subsequently penalising others. That's a bunch of time on admin you could spend on building.



I feel like you could do this with one spread sheet. If you manage it correctly.


----------



## I play music

I may have already said it. I think the best business model for Dylan would be to just build pieces of art to his liking and auction them once finished. He may even get more money that way than what he's charging for a build now.


----------



## narad

cip 123 said:


> It's infeasible when you already can't keep track of things with a comparatively simpler model.
> 
> For an operation with more than 1 person, I'd say it's viable. But for 1 self employed person you don't want to waste time chasing people, and then subsequently penalising others. That's a bunch of time on admin you could spend on building.



You do that admin prior to people sending deposits currently anyway. How do you think you get on the list now? You fill out a bunch of stuff, then you get a quote, then you dick around and maybe disappear or maybe put in a deposit. It just shifts the timing of when it occurs, but with the benefit of not being tied into a build slot you don't want, being surprised by price increases, and of course also the risk on the other side of what happens to large sums of deposit money just sitting around.

Keeping track of it is literally one file and some copy/pasting. A high schooler could automate the entire process.



I play music said:


> I may have already said it. I think the best business model for Dylan would be to just build pieces of art to his liking and auction them once finished. He may even get more money that way than what he's charging for a build now.



I'm sure he would. And they'd be bought up entirely by collector guys and flippers. Maybe Essex Recording Studio would create videos, "How I got every Daemoness from this batch". Basically no young player would get a guitar and basically no one would "dream" guitar with their spec/theme.


----------



## I play music

narad said:


> I'm sure he would. And they'd be bought up entirely by collector guys and flippers. Maybe Essex Recording Studio would create videos, "How I got every Daemoness from this batch". Basically no young player would get a guitar and basically no one would "dream" guitar with their spec/theme.


Highest bid means no one was willing to pay more, so good luck trying to flip that for a way higher price. 
There's enough reasonably priced guitars out there for young players.


----------



## diagrammatiks

poor young guitarists in 2020. who for like 800 dollars can get a rig that's better then most of what was available for 3k 15 years ago. 

poor poor young guitarists


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Correct me if I'm wrong on anything here:

Padalka runs his waiting list by taking on the builds he is genuinely interested in building and from people he can be confident aren't tyre kickers. He then closes the wait list completely and just sends out a copy-paste email about when he will be taking orders again. He has a strict timeline to build those guitars and he fits in some in-stocks too. Once he's finished all the orders he opens up the waitlist again. As @Jonathan20022 without quotes or deposits its much easier to handle price increases. 

Carillion closes his wait list once it gets over an estimated build time. There's no deposits until you get closer to the build time to secure materials. Customers can send money to pay for wood that needs to be bought months beforehand though. He's started runs now to consolidate building into more manageable batches with a strict delivery date.

Blackmachine used to work one way by having a list where he would offer pre-spec'd models to people on it. There wasn't much choice to change specs. Often people would be offered already built guitars and weren't going to pass up the opportunity waiting for one with a different top. This didn't really work and the constant price increases meant you could end up paying 3-4 times what was originally quoted when you joined.

I think a mix of these would be the best future business model for Daemoness. Having Padalka's strict approach with a set number of customer spec'd builds from a waitlist. No deposit to get on but you need to commit straight away, if you can't you then get first spot for the next batch if you can commit. Mix that with Blackmachine's pre-spec'd models which would be concept ideas or simple wood spec builds that Dylan comes up with. So instead of in-stocks where its a free for all betting war you'd have less risk with a customer already funding the in-stock while its being built. No waiting list for these. Some builders half complete a build before putting it up as a ready in-stock to generate interest.


----------



## narad

I play music said:


> Highest bid means no one was willing to pay more, so good luck trying to flip that for a way higher price.
> There's enough reasonably priced guitars out there for young players.



In theory (I think mostly if you assume hype and visibility of the auction do not continue to grow) but there are plenty of situations in the gear world where people buy rare things and one-offs expecting they'll go up in value. I'm not sure how frequently it'd be but I suspect it'd be frequent enough on the art guitars. 

At any rate, let's not kid ourselves into thinking any fancy art guitar at auction is ever going to wind up in the hands of actual musicians. It will go into my hands. Is that what you want?


----------



## I play music

narad said:


> In theory (I think mostly if you assume hype and visibility of the auction do not continue to grow) but there are plenty of situations in the gear world where people buy rare things and one-offs expecting they'll go up in value. I'm not sure how frequently it'd be but I suspect it'd be frequent enough on the art guitars.
> 
> At any rate, let's not kid ourselves into thinking any fancy art guitar at auction is ever going to wind up in the hands of actual musicians. It will go into my hands. Is that what you want?


Actual musicians can play used prestiges. I mean seriously if you had one of those art pieces made by Dylan, would you go on tour with such a thing or even go with it to band rehearsals? I surely wouldn't. I'd keep it on the wall of my home studio and get a work horse guitar for actually rocking out.


----------



## diagrammatiks

narad said:


> In theory (I think mostly if you assume hype and visibility of the auction do not continue to grow) but there are plenty of situations in the gear world where people buy rare things and one-offs expecting they'll go up in value. I'm not sure how frequently it'd be but I suspect it'd be frequent enough on the art guitars.
> 
> At any rate, let's not kid ourselves into thinking any fancy art guitar at auction is ever going to wind up in the hands of actual musicians. It will go into my hands. Is that what you want?



better you then no one eh.


----------



## feraledge

Dyingsea said:


> Unfortunately it seems to be an an all too recurring thing with popular SS.org luthiers and luthiers directly involved with the forum. There are so many it's not just BRJ and Vik threads. In fact I can't think of a single luthier who seems to have maintained any longevity here minus a couple/few years then heads out to sea it seems and not on a positive note.



This isn’t his most active forum nor am I sure he maintained his business account, but Sully is absolutely reputable and has maintained great standing.


----------



## nickgray

I play music said:


> I mean seriously if you had one of those art pieces made by Dylan, would you go on tour with such a thing or even go with it to band rehearsals?



This instantly reminded me of Andy from Mors Principium Est. Dude is actually crazy enough to tour with this guitar. The art on it isn't painted, it's woodwork. It's seriously crazy to tour with this guitar.


----------



## mehegama

how much time does it take to write a statement??


----------



## Bettershredthandead

^I'm surprised he hasn't issued one through the Daemoness FB page. That's how he used to do things all the time. In 2015 when he said he was going to close the order book, he issued the statement there and even on the website. I dunno, maybe that's stuff he hard Barnes do at times, but I know Dylan would definitely be writing on FB more often than not at times.


----------



## mlp187

mehegama said:


> how much time does it take to write a statement??


30 months to select the medium, another 6-24 months to get the complete message?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

mlp187 said:


> 30 months to select the medium, another 6-24 months to get the complete message?


It'll be painted on goat skin and written in Gothic font/old english spelling.


----------



## feraledge

Nah, it’s an inlay.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

how bout in a video shortly after dissing Deafhaven?


----------



## narad

diagrammatiks said:


> better you then no one eh.



Is it? But anyway, Dylan's always wanted to make metal guitars for people that actually going to play/use them. To suggest auctions on these would basically ensure that's not the case. Taking everything I've ever learned about Dylan, I think it would be against the very idea of Daemoness to price them out of the range of young metal players.

The only upside is that if you're selling some $8-10k guitars to collectors, you can afford to make more cool metal guitars to artists at artist pricing. But at that point, Dylan could just become a painter who builds subsidized guitars for metal musicians in his spare time.


----------



## feraledge

People might want to say SSO is a bunch of cork sniffing gear nerds, but in what other realm would someone who is 2-3 years over on estimated completion times who is non-responsive to messages from customers who have hundreds to thousands invested be subject to said customer base just riffing on unsolicited business advice?
That’s kind of incredible and endearing.
Count me in too, he could be crushing it by selling prints of his paintings. COVID one was sick. I just wouldn’t give a dime without seeing 5-10 years of steady output again. That’s not never.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Merrekof said:


> Yep. Then you have those guys who buy all the spots they can and sell 'm at a huge profit afterwards. Remember Dave Mustaine's gear unloading earlier this year?
> 
> My best idea is Dylan to have a deposit free waiting list. And deposits are being paid when he contacts you ands says "your build is up in the next batch. I need your final specs and money"
> If the first person on the list lost his or her interest or cash, go on to the next on the list. This seems like the most viable business model to me.



Would it sell for huge profits though? I'm a bit sceptical, because I believe I see most of that Mustaine stuff still on Reverb. I could be wrong though.



Jonathan20022 said:


> Yeah it's worked plenty of times for other luthiers, I don't like how dismissive some shit becomes upon suggestion. A deposit free waitlist is consumer friendly in all ways possible, and it should be adopted where applicable for custom made products.
> 
> You have no financial obligation til your name is up, you don't feel cheated by any price increases (if any happen) when your name is called. And tire kickers filling the waitlist can be sorted and handled easily on a timed basis as well, every 6 months send out a few emails to confirm your spot and communicate any changes to the process/cost of the product. If you confirm you hold your place in line, if you don't then the builder can reach out via phone number or other means if provided to make sure the emails didn't get tossed in a spam folder.
> 
> The people who are going to order will still order, and people who joined the waitlist just to say they did will puss out and dip pushing everyone who wants a guitar further up the queue. If you're like Daemoness and you're building effectively 12 - 15 instruments a year, I don't think it's impossible to handle a few email pushes and maybe a phone call twice a year.



Firstly, we should refer to this as a downpayment, not a deposit. The £600 comes off the final price of your guitar, thus it is an advance payment on a product. It isn't a reservation fee.

I believe the idea of the £600 is to try and stop people from dropping out, and to try and penalise people for time-wasting. Plus, of course, it provides a cash influx for the company. I don't really believe that my £600 downpayment is still sitting in his bank account, allocated towards my guitar in 3 years. It's probably been spent on his mortgage, food etc. (That said, legally it seems this isn't allowed, but nobody has actually chased him down about refunds yet).

A deposit-free system sounds nice, but it removes a source of income for the builder and he would only get paid for guitars he actually produces. I doubt Dylan can afford that right now. I think it's safe to assume that fresh deposits are a significant source of income (albeit a pyramid scheme if the queue grows forever).

And, apparently handling a few emails IS already too difficult for them, even for the people who've already paid £600 or more.



narad said:


> You do that admin prior to people sending deposits currently anyway. How do you think you get on the list now? You fill out a bunch of stuff, then you get a quote, then you dick around and maybe disappear or maybe put in a deposit. It just shifts the timing of when it occurs, but with the benefit of not being tied into a build slot you don't want, being surprised by price increases, and of course also the risk on the other side of what happens to large sums of deposit money just sitting around.
> 
> Keeping track of it is literally one file and some copy/pasting. A high schooler could automate the entire process.
> 
> I'm sure he would. And they'd be bought up entirely by collector guys and flippers. Maybe Essex Recording Studio would create videos, "How I got every Daemoness from this batch". Basically no young player would get a guitar and basically no one would "dream" guitar with their spec/theme.



That's a very good point. But apparently keeping track of the orders has NOT been done adequately. It shouldn't be difficult... yet here we are!

Also, it seems to me that the whole business model of providing "affordable" customs on a small scale simple isn't sustainable. Like you said, if that's his goal, then he needs other incomes sources to support it.


----------



## prlgmnr

I don't think we need to be pretending that these are in any way available to "young metal players". though maybe that just means something different to me.

(And that's putting aside the point that even if you're a young metal player when you place your deposit you certainly won't be by the time you select your wood).


----------



## Acme

prlgmnr said:


> I don't think we need to be pretending that these are in any way available to "young metal players". though maybe that just means something different to me.
> 
> (And that's putting aside the point that even if you're a young metal player when you place your deposit you certainly won't be by the time you select your wood).



To hell with your ageism!  A 40 year old with two kids is still a young metal player.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

When Dylan refers to “Young metal players” he’s talking about guys in their 20s who want to save and buy a higher end metal guitar. Which was his demographic for a long time. With early Daemoness pricing a custom guitar was a reasonable goal for someone of that age who didn’t have family or housing commitments.


----------



## Avedas

prlgmnr said:


> I don't think we need to be pretending that these are in any way available to "young metal players". though maybe that just means something different to me.
> 
> (And that's putting aside the point that even if you're a young metal player when you place your deposit you certainly won't be by the time you select your wood).


lol for real. If you're in your 20s and you can comfortably afford a Daemoness you're probably not really that far off from being able to afford a $10k "collector" guitar. There's a much bigger economic gap between the budget for a $700 used Prestige and a $4000 Daemoness than there is between $4k and $10k. And both will play metal just fine.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Listen guys, nothing precludes Young Metal Players™ from having trust funds.


----------



## narad

I don't know what things are now or if they're any different, but there was a time when a Daemoness base price was like 2-2.3k GBP and options were comparatively cheaper than basically anyone else out there, especially on inlay and art. If you're in the UK this is right inline with what a Jackson USA would be there. It's not easy to afford that, but teenagers and early 20s guys don't have any trouble buying decent cars that are multiples more costly. When I first placed my Daemoness that was basically the situation -- do I get a car or do I get a custom guitar, a Diezel, and take the bus? And I was on a student stipend which is actually even lower than minimum wage so it's far from an impossible goal.

And I think people overlook that when Dylan was starting out circa 2006-2008-ish, the budget guitar scene was a lot different. Now it's a luxury because there's so many great $1-1.5k guitars, plenty of 7-string options, great hardware on like all of these. But $800 was pretty junky when I started and $1500 was like Gibson studio during the time of some of their worse QC, and basically everything from China was pure shit. Japan had not been opened to traders yet and Europeans were focused on baroque music.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> I don't know what things are now or if they're any different, but there was a time when a Daemoness base price was like 2-2.3k GBP and options were comparatively cheaper than basically anyone else out there, especially on inlay and art. If you're in the UK this is right inline with what a Jackson USA would be there. It's not easy to afford that, but teenagers and early 20s guys don't have any trouble buying decent cars that are multiples more costly. When I first placed my Daemoness that was basically the situation -- do I get a car or do I get a custom guitar, a Diezel, and take the bus? And I was on a student stipend which is actually even lower than minimum wage so it's far from an impossible goal.
> 
> And I think people overlook that when Dylan was starting out circa 2006-2008-ish, the budget guitar scene was a lot different. Now it's a luxury because there's so many great $1-1.5k guitars, plenty of 7-string options, great hardware on like all of these. But $800 was pretty junky when I started and $1500 was like Gibson studio during the time of some of their worse QC, and basically everything from China was pure shit. Japan had not been opened to traders yet and Europeans were focused on baroque music.



That's such a specific situation: being a Young Metal Player™ who lives in England, is willing and able to use public transit exclusively, doesn't have significant financial commitments and is open to ploping the cost on credit. 

Perhaps they weren't a bad value, but that's a different story.


----------



## Avedas

narad said:


> I don't know what things are now or if they're any different, but there was a time when a Daemoness base price was like 2-2.3k GBP and options were comparatively cheaper than basically anyone else out there, especially on inlay and art. If you're in the UK this is right inline with what a Jackson USA would be there. It's not easy to afford that, but teenagers and early 20s guys don't have any trouble buying decent cars that are multiples more costly. When I first placed my Daemoness that was basically the situation -- do I get a car or do I get a custom guitar, a Diezel, and take the bus? And I was on a student stipend which is actually even lower than minimum wage so it's far from an impossible goal.
> 
> And I think people overlook that when Dylan was starting out circa 2006-2008-ish, the budget guitar scene was a lot different. Now it's a luxury because there's so many great $1-1.5k guitars, plenty of 7-string options, great hardware on like all of these. But $800 was pretty junky when I started and $1500 was like Gibson studio during the time of some of their worse QC, and basically everything from China was pure shit. Japan had not been opened to traders yet and Europeans were focused on baroque music.


What's the APR on a guitar loan?


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's such a specific situation: being a Young Metal Player™ who lives in England, is willing and able to use public transit exclusively, doesn't have significant financial commitments and is open to ploping the cost on credit.
> 
> Perhaps they weren't a bad value, but that's a different story.



Obviously the Daemoness market is not explicitly defined around exactly my situation in 2008. It is simply one example of being able to easily afford a 2k GBP guitar while having basically the lowest possible income in the country (in this case I was actually in the US, so referring to US minimum wage). It's pretty expensive *for a guitar*, but you can still afford it with a summer job.

Stipend is not credit, btw.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Obviously the Daemoness market is not explicitly defined around exactly my situation in 2008. It is simply one example of being able to easily afford a 2k GBP guitar while having basically the lowest possible income in the country (in this case I was actually in the US, so referring to US minimum wage). It's pretty expensive *for a guitar*, but you can still afford it with a summer job.
> 
> Stipend is not credit, btw.



Most folks can't spare <$500 for an emergency. Someone would have to be fairly privileged for a purchase like that to be an option. 

That's totally fine though. There's nothing wrong with offering a product to those who can comfortably afford it, which is why it's weird that it's being framed as available to a cross section of folks not known for copious disposable income.

You compared the purchase to buying a car, which most, especially young people, finance.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> You compared the purchase to buying a car, which most, especially young people, finance.



Ah fair enough, it wasn't immediately clear to me where you were going with that.


----------



## mehegama

It is funny how a lot of people here offer really smart and interesting ideas on how Dylan can improve his business, while the guy cannot even write a statement on his own order book and his own non-existent practices, in 2 weeks time..


----------



## Merrekof

I wouldn't say a Deamoness is for the young metal player at all. A 20 year old guys life could change a lot in 7 years. (Appareantly it takes that long from getting on the wait list to completion)
In 7 years, one could get married, have kids, lose jobs, buy a house, get in financial trouble or even stop playing guitar altogether. A wait time this long is imo only for the extremely dedicated or professional musician.

If I look at myself, 7 years ago I was 25 years old and single, lived with my parents, had plenty of time to play guitar and had the cash for a couple of Deamoness's. Now in my early 30's, I have a house, bills to pay, a pregnant wife and a toddler and I couldn't possibly pay for the rest of the build right now.


----------



## narad

lol, it's 7 years now. Daemoness wait time is calculated as wait-time + (thread-pages / 25)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> lol, it's 7 years now. Daemoness wait time is calculated as wait-time + (thread-pages / 25)



Haven't you been reading the thread? Folks have been waiting 7 years for thier guitars. I don't know how they can wait 8 years. I'd be going crazy if I had to wait 9 years like they are. Dylan really needs to streamline his process so it can be under 10 years.


----------



## Merrekof

narad said:


> lol, it's 7 years now. Daemoness wait time is calculated as wait-time + (thread-pages / 25)


I'm not sure, but reading up on several threads got me to "I paid my deposit in 2016 and I don't have my guitar yet" and "2 years on the waiting list before the initial deposit"

So I assume it'll take 7 years to get a custom Deamoness if you contact them right now.

Edit: take in account they could add a couple more years before 2027. I wouldn't be surprised if you get yours in 2030, if you contact them now.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Merrekof said:


> I wouldn't say a Deamoness is for the young metal player at all. A 20 year old guys life could change a lot in 7 years. (Appareantly it takes that long from getting on the wait list to completion)



You are looking at from a current perspective. When I ordered there was a realistic estimation of a 2 year wait. If you are looking into customs then you should already have a sizeable amount of savings that you are confident you can use to start the build and have a plan to save over the next 2 years for it. I know first hand life can change quickly and I had to sell my own Cimmerian. The same can be said for life changing and not being able to pay rent, mortgage, loans etc which the whole world is dealing with now.

A custom guitar is a luxury. There is no doubting that but the first year of my car insurance, motor tax and NCT cost about 2/3rds of a Daemoness. A year later and I had to pay for that all again. Not including the car and ridiculous fuel costs we pay here I’d consider my daemoness one of the better purchases of my 20s. I’ve had friends pay for cars 5+ years later after their car went to the scrapyard. Should have got a prestige? I wonder if car forums say should have got a Toyota.

I’m rambling but while a guitar is a luxury item it’s also an item you can expect to get 75-100%+ of the money back if you choose to sell it.(reputable company of course).

And yes right now they are not a young metal player’s but they originally were. Just like Blackmachine before they turned into investments and status symbols.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> lol, it's 7 years now. Daemoness wait time is calculated as wait-time + (thread-pages / 25)


the 2 latest NGD (including this one) had a total waiting time of 5.5 years. It is pretty accurate to say that the correct number is 5-6 years.


----------



## narad

Merrekof said:


> I'm not sure, but reading up on several threads got me to "I paid my deposit in 2016 and I don't have my guitar yet" and "2 years on the waiting list before the initial deposit"



I don't think you were understanding those numbers correctly. Initial deposit is when you get on the waiting list.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

I get it, no one wants to be perceived as "that guy" building guitars for dentists to hang on the wall of thier summer beach house never to be played. But that's okay.


----------



## narad

MaxOfMetal said:


> I get it, no one wants to be "that guy" building guitars for dentists to hang on the wall of thier summer beach house never to be played. But that's okay.



Tooooth deecaaayyy
Pestulence and rot in the ivory wasteland
Extraction is the cuuuree
drill drill drill
exhume them from their toombss
drill drill drill
in the orifice of dooomm
Tooooth decaaayyyy


----------



## Viginez

a statement wouldn't change much anyway imo, besides buying the guy some more time. you'll still have to wait...and wait...


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Tooooth deecaaayyy
> Pestulence and rot in the ivory wasteland
> Extraction is the cuuuree
> drill drill drill
> exhume them from their toombss
> drill drill drill
> in the orifice of dooomm
> Tooooth decaaayyyy





Love it.


----------



## narad

One thing I will say about Daemoness is that a bad trip to the dentist is not an entirely unreasonable starting point for a guitar theme, and that in itself is pretty crazy.


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> It is funny how a lot of people here offer really smart and interesting ideas on how Dylan can improve his business, while the guy cannot even write a statement on his own order book and his own non-existent practices, in 2 weeks time..



I wouldn't consider the suggestions made so far as being generally smart or interesting. There is no short term solution to this problem and "being a better business person" is rather obtuse and not constructive. Likewise I wouldn't consider that much thought was put into statements such as "offer wait list members refunds and an opt out" because we simply know nothing about the state of the company finances. So no, very little thought has been put into the "solutions" mentioned because we know literally nothing about the current state of the business beyond a handful of forum user-anecdotal experiences with Daemoness Guitars.

Likewise it would be easy to say "increase the cost of all inlay/art additions by ~50%" may speed up the process of builds being shipped out due to reduced demand for such extras, while still remaining available for those with the desire/means to add them to their builds. 

We simply do not know enough about the business to spitball solutions on a random guitar forum that realistically makes up a fairly small portion of his business nowadays. 

If we really had the ability to dramatically improve the function and income of small business/sole traders I would suggest we develop a method of monetizing our genius hive mind business solution here on ss.org.


----------



## SamSam

Avedas said:


> What's the APR on a guitar loan?



0% in the UK. Unless the scheme was scrapped.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> If we really had the ability to dramatically improve the function and income of small business/sole traders I would suggest we develop a method of monetizing our genius hive mind business solution here on ss.org.



I have the solution.

Just wire $600 to my account and I'll gift you my vast guitar business knowledge...eventually.


----------



## SamSam

MaxOfMetal said:


> I have the solution.
> 
> Just wire $600 to my account and I'll gift you my vast guitar business knowledge...eventually.



I would expect you to reply within 3 years tops, since you probably only have "a few emails" to read through.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> I would expect you to reply within 3 years tops, since you probably only have "a few emails" to read through.



The $600 payment merely gets you on my waiting list. Actual information will be provided in about 30 months, give or take 30 months, and after an additional payment of $1000.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Jokes aside, getting safe to assume a statement isn't going to be coming.

I think enough is enough and I'll be initiating my official downpayment refund request later today.


----------



## SamSam

MaxOfMetal said:


> The $600 payment merely gets you on my waiting list. Actual information will be provided in about 30 months, give or take 30 months, and after an additional payment of $1000.



Then I will ensure that my first email request my spot on your waiting list includes a 2000 word essay explaining my napkin annotated concept, based on how I would like the information you hold to be inlaid using fossilized shark semen and the ashes of a cremated child.


----------



## SamSam

Flappydoodle said:


> Jokes aside, getting safe to assume a statement isn't going to be coming.
> 
> I think enough is enough and I'll be initiating my official downpayment refund request later today.



What could he say that would actually reassure you at this point?


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> Then I will ensure that my first email request my spot on your waiting list includes a 2000 word essay explaining my napkin annotated concept, based on how I would like the information you hold to be inlaid using fossilized shark semen and the ashes of a cremated child.



Fossilized? I'll have you know, I use only the finest and freshest shark semen in my wares.

You probably can't afford it, unless of course, you're a Young Metal Player™.


----------



## prlgmnr

SamSam said:


> What could he say that would actually reassure you at this point?


"Don't worry, your guitar is actually ready; no charge"


----------



## Bettershredthandead

He once said in a video made quite a while ago that his pricing was set so a kid could save for a summer and buy one of his guitars.

I will summarize my thoughts on how that statement applies to today: nope.


----------



## Merrekof

narad said:


> I don't think you were understanding those numbers correctly. Initial deposit is when you get on the waiting list.


Oh okay, my bad.. 
Still a long wait if you ask me


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> I wouldn't consider the suggestions made so far as being generally smart or interesting. There is no short term solution to this problem and "being a better business person" is rather obtuse and not constructive. Likewise I wouldn't consider that much thought was put into statements such as "offer wait list members refunds and an opt out" because we simply know nothing about the state of the company finances. So no, very little thought has been put into the "solutions" mentioned because we know literally nothing about the current state of the business beyond a handful of forum user-anecdotal experiences with Daemoness Guitars.
> 
> Likewise it would be easy to say "increase the cost of all inlay/art additions by ~50%" may speed up the process of builds being shipped out due to reduced demand for such extras, while still remaining available for those with the desire/means to add them to their builds.
> 
> We simply do not know enough about the business to spitball solutions on a random guitar forum that realistically makes up a fairly small portion of his business nowadays.
> 
> If we really had the ability to dramatically improve the function and income of small business/sole traders I would suggest we develop a method of monetizing our genius hive mind business solution here on ss.org.


well, i think people give their opinions based on the info they have. Given that the guy is ex communicated I think many of these ideas are not bad at all. It s not rocket science obviously, but some might facilitate the situation. My point was more on how he cannot even write a statement on time.


----------



## SamSam

MaxOfMetal said:


> Fossilized? I'll have you know, I use only the finest and freshest shark semen in my wares.
> 
> You probably can't afford it, unless of course, you're a Young Metal Player™.



Alas, my young metal player days are over. Luckily I bought my Daemoness whilst I was a young metal player!



Bettershredthandead said:


> He once said in a video made quite a while ago that his pricing was set so a kid could save for a summer and buy one of his guitars.
> 
> I will summarize my thoughts on how that statement applies to today: nope.



Back then his guitars were under priced, way under priced for what was on offer. In 2008 he could have been charging an extra grand per instrument and still been both competitive and value for money since he offers something rather unique. The few attempts to produce instruments of a similar style (Only Ormsby really comes to mind at the moment) fall completely flat and cannot compare.

I adore mine and would love another one (ideally) three more, but I would certainly wait until the whole situation stabilizes. And I truly hope it does because he truly is a unique artist with great vision. Time will tell I suppose.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

SamSam said:


> Back then his guitars were under priced, way under priced for what was on offer.



I'm curious, care to share how much?



SamSam said:


> Time will tell I suppose.



Oh it certainly will.


----------



## Seabeast2000

Why isn't the YMP Index a KPI like porkbellies and oil futures?


----------



## SamSam

Bettershredthandead said:


> I'm curious, care to share how much?



At the time mine was about £300 or less than a base level PRS Core Series and a bit less than a Silver Sky would cost you today (in sterling). 

Obviously my Cimmerian doesn't have any inlay work as I opted for the body art instead (both Dylan and I felt that inlays and body art together in this case would be excessive). Saying that the art work on the body alone took around a week to complete, scale and detail were important considerations and I do believe that we often forget how much planning goes into these kind of details.

I am not sure what the going rate is nowadays for custom guitars, my upcoming Wirebird will be more expensive that's for sure (then again life is more expensive).

Is the average Daemoness 4k plus yet?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

SamSam said:


> At the time mine was about £300 or less than a....


So around 3000 USD I take it?


----------



## SamSam

Bettershredthandead said:


> So around 3000 USD I take it?



Yea that's probably about right. I believe the base cost at the time was around £1800.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Bettershredthandead said:


> So around 3000 USD I take it?



Standard Satins were close to $2k in the US back then, so probably closer to the equivalent of a bit more overseas.


----------



## SamSam

MaxOfMetal said:


> Standard Satins were close to $2k in the US back then, so probably closer to the equivalent of a bit more overseas.



I doubt anyone was getting a PRS core model for 2K usd around that time (In the UK). A PRS Custom 24 was definitely running over £2500 by that point over here.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> I doubt anyone was getting a PRS core model for 2K usd around that time (In the UK). A PRS Custom 24 was definitely running over £2500 by that point over here.



Did you guys get the Satins? That's what replaced the Standard, and were about 2/3rds the cost of the non-10 Customs.


----------



## SamSam

We have the S2 satins, I have no idea if we got any other type of satins over here. To be honest when I think PRS I think shiny decadent figured wood from the magazines


----------



## Bettershredthandead

In 2008 i could more or less see a kid/young metaler setting aside 2000 grand for a custom job off of summer wages. Also depends on your definition of kid/young metaller. Mid to late 20s usually is a bit easier to want to throw that type of cash around. All depending upon your situation of course.

If closer to 3000 USD, I'd say that would be pushing it a tad. It just struck me as quite interesting that statement Dylan made in that early vid. Perhaps an updated vid is now required....5 years from now.


----------



## diagrammatiks

SamSam said:


> I wouldn't consider the suggestions made so far as being generally smart or interesting. There is no short term solution to this problem and "being a better business person" is rather obtuse and not constructive. Likewise I wouldn't consider that much thought was put into statements such as "offer wait list members refunds and an opt out" because we simply know nothing about the state of the company finances. So no, very little thought has been put into the "solutions" mentioned because we know literally nothing about the current state of the business beyond a handful of forum user-anecdotal experiences with Daemoness Guitars.
> 
> Likewise it would be easy to say "increase the cost of all inlay/art additions by ~50%" may speed up the process of builds being shipped out due to reduced demand for such extras, while still remaining available for those with the desire/means to add them to their builds.
> 
> We simply do not know enough about the business to spitball solutions on a random guitar forum that realistically makes up a fairly small portion of his business nowadays.
> 
> If we really had the ability to dramatically improve the function and income of small business/sole traders I would suggest we develop a method of monetizing our genius hive mind business solution here on ss.org.



I think you're vastly over complicating the situation here. 

at least hundreds if not thousands of small business owners all over the world are able to make their shit work everyday. 

even the rinkiest small business mom and pop diner is able to handle multiple sku's, ingredient orders, and payroll with nothing more then a three ring binder. 

we have spectacular builder flameouts every couple of years here. 

there's only really 2 possibilities here. 

1. Is that Dylan is legit sick and getting better. He's just a little behind. 
Everything will probably be fine. This doesn't explain the inability to hand like 300 line items in a spreadsheet but whatever. 

2. He's been spending deposits and it's catching up to him. If this is the case ya'll are fucked. Good luck getting a deposit because there is no money.


----------



## jco5055

Bettershredthandead said:


> He once said in a video made quite a while ago that his pricing was set so a kid could save for a summer and buy one of his guitars.
> 
> I will summarize my thoughts on how that statement applies to today: nope.



I mean if he saves for 5-7 summers....


----------



## Blytheryn

jco5055 said:


> I mean if he saves for 5-7 summers....



I don’t know about you guys, but I never made less than around 3 grand a summer working a summer job.


----------



## jco5055

Blytheryn said:


> I don’t know about you guys, but I never made less than around 3 grand a summer working a summer job.



Well mine was a joke about the wait list being 5-7 years so he has that long to save lol


----------



## SamSam

diagrammatiks said:


> I think you're vastly over complicating the situation here.
> 
> at least hundreds if not thousands of small business owners all over the world are able to make their shit work everyday.
> 
> even the rinkiest small business mom and pop diner is able to handle multiple sku's, ingredient orders, and payroll with nothing more then a three ring binder.
> 
> we have spectacular builder flameouts every couple of years here.
> 
> there's only really 2 possibilities here.
> 
> 1. Is that Dylan is legit sick and getting better. He's just a little behind.
> Everything will probably be fine. This doesn't explain the inability to hand like 300 line items in a spreadsheet but whatever.
> 
> 2. He's been spending deposits and it's catching up to him. If this is the case ya'll are fucked. Good luck getting a deposit because there is no money.



That isn't even a real example, you've just made up a theoretical business to make a point that can't be made so easily. Small businesses fail literally all the time. I'm no expert so here's what google has to say:

What Is the *Small Business* Failure Rate? 20% of *small businesses* fail in their first year, 30% of *small business* fail in their second year, and 50% of *small businesses* fail after five years in *business*. Finally, 70% of *small business* owners fail in their 10th year in *business*.

70% in ten years? Well Dylan got past that hump. But let's not pretend that it's easy owning a small business / sole trader. It's fucking hard work and failure rates are high. Dylan has phenomenal talent and is a true artist. But that doesn't make a business fool proof.

Let's not pretend there's an easy fix based on the "mom and pop" business model. I deal with companies house and the dept of employment a lot and we see dead businesses as often as we see live ones.

If one thing is certain here, literally one thing: solving this issues won't be simple.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

People in this thread defending someone who cant get a simple statement together in 2 weeks. 

Those guitars are amazing, but ain't no guitar that amazing.


----------



## Mathemagician

Just walked into the thread, seems like something happened. Can I get TL;DR?


----------



## TheInvisibleHand

So this is probably a grossly ignorant question, but in reading ALL of this, I keep asking myself, what in tarnation is he doing that takes nearly a decade for a guitar??? I understand that there's an enormous waiting list and he's a solo operation, and inlays blah blah, but really, how long does it actually take to make a custom guitar? Talking hours, how many total hours from start to finish would it actually take for a middle of the road complexity custom piece? 

I ask this not completely new to custom instruments, and I am currently waiting for my own (with Skervesen) to be completed. But when guys like Dean Gordon can produce remarkable instruments in 5-6 months time, along with a handful of other much larger operations producing guitars withing the 12-18 month range (frfom deposit to guitar in hand), I just don't get it. I mean Jesus, does the guy grow the trees first? Is part of the order process selecting the plot of land you want your mahogany to be grown on?


----------



## narad

SamSam said:


> Let's not pretend there's an easy fix based on the "mom and pip" business model. I deal with companies house and the dept of employment a lot and we see dead businesses as often as we see live ones.



I don't know. I think if all of us with no knowledge of what it's like to run a luthiery business and also no knowledge of Dylan's financial situation or build progress -- if all of us pooled our collective knowledge, thought about it for maybe 30 seconds and then posted the first thing that came to mind, it'd probably be really prudent business advice!

It's ironic. Here we are -- the guys who know exactly how to run Dylan's business properly -- and there Dylan is, the only one who doesn't know how, and that's exactly his job. What are the odds?? Man, if Alanis Morisette was writing that song now, this situation would have to be an example!


----------



## narad

TheInvisibleHand said:


> So this is probably a grossly ignorant question, but in reading ALL of this, I keep asking myself, what in tarnation is he doing that takes nearly a decade for a guitar???



Two pages later and it's up from 7 years to "nearly a decade"! The legend grows!


----------



## diagrammatiks

SamSam said:


> That isn't even a real example, you've just made up a theoretical business to make a point that can't be made so easily. Small businesses fail literally all the time. I'm no expert so here's what google has to say:
> 
> What Is the *Small Business* Failure Rate? 20% of *small businesses* fail in their first year, 30% of *small business* fail in their second year, and 50% of *small businesses* fail after five years in *business*. Finally, 70% of *small business* owners fail in their 10th year in *business*.
> 
> 70% in ten years? Well Dylan got past that hump. But let's not pretend that it's easy owning a small business / sole trader. It's fucking hard work and failure rates are high. Dylan has phenomenal talent and is a true artist. But that doesn't make a business fool proof.
> 
> Let's not pretend there's an easy fix based on the "mom and pop" business model. I deal with companies house and the dept of employment a lot and we see dead businesses as often as we see live ones.
> 
> If one thing is certain here, literally one thing: solving this issues won't be simple.




Ya it's pretty easy to get past that hump when you only do like 2 things every year. 

I mean I don't disagree with you. But I think you're getting overly worked up about a bunch of people shooting the shit on a forum.

The reality is that if he's been spending deposits...without a capital infusion there is no fix. 

This is done.


----------



## Blytheryn

jco5055 said:


> Well mine was a joke about the wait list being 5-7 years so he has that long to save lol



My bad, that went completely over my head lol.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

TheInvisibleHand said:


> So this is probably a grossly ignorant question, but in reading ALL of this, I keep asking myself, what in tarnation is he doing that takes nearly a decade for a guitar??? I understand that there's an enormous waiting list and he's a solo operation, and inlays blah blah, but really, how long does it actually take to make a custom guitar? Talking hours, how many total hours from start to finish would it actually take for a middle of the road complexity custom piece?
> 
> I ask this not completely new to custom instruments, and I am currently waiting for my own (with Skervesen) to be completed. But when guys like Dean Gordon can produce remarkable instruments in 5-6 months time, along with a handful of other much larger operations producing guitars withing the 12-18 month range (frfom deposit to guitar in hand), I just don't get it. I mean Jesus, does the guy grow the trees first? Is part of the order process selecting the plot of land you want your mahogany to be grown on?



There's no real easy answer here. Tools, training, methods, work flow, materials, work/life balance, there are just so many factors. 

I've seen builders knock out a guitar in less than a week, and others take over a year for nearly the same thing, and not because one was lazier or "better" at building than the other. 

Look at like this, the biggest most modern guitar manufacturers in the world take, at minimum, a couple months to turn raw materials into a functional, quality instrument from nothing. That's with millions of dollars in equipment and hundreds of staff with centuries worth of experience to make it happen. As you peel all that back you add time.


----------



## SamSam

diagrammatiks said:


> Ya it's pretty easy to get past that hump when you only do like 2 things every year.
> 
> I mean I don't disagree with you. But I think you're getting overly worked up about a bunch of people shooting the shit on a forum.
> 
> The reality is that if he's been spending deposits...without a capital infusion there is no fix.
> 
> This is done.



It's frustrating because I don't want one of the good shops to go down. And being acquainted with Dylan I know it must be difficult for him because he is genuinely incredibly passionate about his instruments.

I also find ignorance incredibly frustrating and we have an abundance of it in this thread. I'm not endorsing the current situation by the way, it's clearly out of control.


TheInvisibleHand said:


> So this is probably a grossly ignorant question, but in reading ALL of this, I keep asking myself, what in tarnation is he doing that takes nearly a decade for a guitar??? I understand that there's an enormous waiting list and he's a solo operation, and inlays blah blah, but really, how long does it actually take to make a custom guitar? Talking hours, how many total hours from start to finish would it actually take for a middle of the road complexity custom piece?
> 
> I ask this not completely new to custom instruments, and I am currently waiting for my own (with Skervesen) to be completed. But when guys like Dean Gordon can produce remarkable instruments in 5-6 months time, along with a handful of other much larger operations producing guitars withing the 12-18 month range (frfom deposit to guitar in hand), I just don't get it. I mean Jesus, does the guy grow the trees first? Is part of the order process selecting the plot of land you want your mahogany to be grown on?



How long is Dylan waiting list? 200 instruments? 300? We don't know. How long is a piece of string.

How many staff member do Skervesson or Dean Gordon have? Is it more than one? Is it comparable? How many people are currently waiting? What is the average build time compared to a daemoness? How many "hands" are on each build?

How many daemoness guitars on average are built a year? How many last year? How many in 2010?

Likewise for the other companies. They have guitar building in common, but perhaps nothing else.

Dylan might be building more guitars than any other year, but the list has grown too large and was miscalculated due to Barnes's departure. Until he speaks up we really cannot offer any concrete information.

It's frustrating for some of you as clients of his and it is to me as well as a past client who had an extremely positive experience with my build.


----------



## Flappydoodle

SamSam said:


> What could he say that would actually reassure you at this point?



If he'd come out with a message that:

1. Was on time

2. Transparently acknowledged problems. Admit that he is overloaded, took too many deposits, lost track of orders etc.

3. Apologised for ghosting people, which is a terrible offence for a small business which has taken your money. There's no excuse.

4. Given reasonable explanations. Such as what happened to OP's guitar, delivered in such a sorry state.

5. A plan of action for the future which makes sense - such as how to deal with the build queue, how to improve their admin and communication etc.

Then I'd be willing to give the benefit of the doubt.



TheInvisibleHand said:


> So this is probably a grossly ignorant question, but in reading ALL of this, I keep asking myself, what in tarnation is he doing that takes nearly a decade for a guitar??? I understand that there's an enormous waiting list and he's a solo operation, and inlays blah blah, but really, how long does it actually take to make a custom guitar? Talking hours, how many total hours from start to finish would it actually take for a middle of the road complexity custom piece?
> 
> I ask this not completely new to custom instruments, and I am currently waiting for my own (with Skervesen) to be completed. But when guys like Dean Gordon can produce remarkable instruments in 5-6 months time, along with a handful of other much larger operations producing guitars withing the 12-18 month range (frfom deposit to guitar in hand), I just don't get it. I mean Jesus, does the guy grow the trees first? Is part of the order process selecting the plot of land you want your mahogany to be grown on?



You CAN stick together a basic bolt-on guitar with a basic finish from scratch in a couple of days, if you have what you need (wood, tools, hardware etc) and know what you're doing.

However, I don't think it's the build time which is the issue for Daemoness. It's shit organisation. He's clearly bitten off way more than he can chew, taking on downpayments at a faster rate than he's completing builds.

He's also put out a bunch of artist builds, which must have detracted serious time away from customer builds. (Though he says he only worked on them in evenings when he wouldn't normally work, lol)

Almost everything about his organisation has been shit. They didn't have a functioning website for years. Then it launched and has never been updated since. There was supposed to be some sort of video documentary coming out more than 1yr ago. Never did. The build estimates are clearly WAY off. Even some sort of statement is late, rofl.

In fact, the only speedy and well organised part was when they take your money, and that was handled by Barnes, who has now left.


----------



## SamSam

To give another recent example of mine, I ordered a Wirebird in January 2019. The book was opened for 5 builds. To be competed by september 2019. His build all tend to be rather similar. I do not believe the book was opened in 2018 but I'm not sure. 

Its August 2020, I don't have a guitar. My deposit was also more than £600. Is 5 guitars in 9 months unreasonable? Is 5 guitars in 20 months reasonable? I'm not concerned at this point in time if I'm honest mind.


----------



## mehegama

Mathemagician said:


> Just walked into the thread, seems like something happened. Can I get TL;DR?


Dylan delivered a very poor guitar in late 2019 (this very NGD). The OP wanted a refund and Dylan complied. Then members started discussing, based on this incident, Dylan practices and the fact that the actual delivery time is 5-6 years (double the quoted one) and that he has been ghosting pretty much everyone asking for info on their delayed or not builds. He was supposed to address the issue in a statement 2 weeks ago but we have nothing yet, and if you ask me, I don't think we ll see this statement soon.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> I don’t know about you guys, but I never made less than around 3 grand a summer working a summer job.



Not trying to get too much in the weeds here with this but everyone's situation can vary, but 3000 grand can be more necessary for the individual to cover other expenses in their life. Especially if very young with school costs and what no or anything else required in life.

I lean more to vid needs an update plus may have also been too optimistic even then. Just sayin'.


----------



## Metropolis

Why not just invest into a cnc-router and start to pump those guitars out


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> I also find ignorance incredibly frustrating and we have an abundance of it in this thread. I'm not endorsing the current situation by the way, it's clearly out of control.


That's why he need to post this statement. And the fact he can't even write few paragraphs in 2 weeks time it's making things seem even worse.


----------



## prlgmnr

I'm loving this thing where every time someone states what the current wait period supposedly is, someone else adds 1 year and then states _that_ as fact.


----------



## mehegama

prlgmnr said:


> I'm loving this thing where every time someone states what the current wait period supposedly is, someone else adds 1 year and then states _that_ as fact.


That's how most of the biggest legends always start! Jokes aside, the current accurate estimate is 5-6 years


----------



## Kovah

prlgmnr said:


> I'm loving this thing where every time someone states what the current wait period supposedly is, someone else adds 1 year and then states _that_ as fact.



This is sheer Daemoness bashing at this point. I get why most people want a statement from him (by the way, if his business model is THAT flawed, his whole business and passion is at stake. I get why he'd need more than a week to write it, especially when he still has regular work to do). What I don't understand is why people who have clearly no intention of waiting any longer than 6 months want a statement telling them what they already know: build times are inaccurate and they won't get their guitar anytime soon. This statement won't get you a refund.


----------



## Blytheryn

Kovah said:


> This is sheer Daemoness bashing at this point. I get why most people want a statement from him (by the way, if his business model is THAT flawed, his whole business and passion is at stake. I get why he'd need more than a week to write it, especially when he still has regular work to do). What I don't understand is why people who have clearly no intention of waiting any longer than 6 months want a statement telling them what they already know: build times are inaccurate and they won't get their guitar anytime soon. This statement won't get you a refund.



Very well put.


----------



## mehegama

Kovah said:


> This is sheer Daemoness bashing at this point. I get why most people want a statement from him (by the way, if his business model is THAT flawed, his whole business and passion is at stake. I get why he'd need more than a week to write it, especially when he still has regular work to do). What I don't understand is why people who have clearly no intention of waiting any longer than 6 months want a statement telling them what they already know: build times are inaccurate and they won't get their guitar anytime soon. This statement won't get you a refund.


If he comes with the statement saying that the actual wait times will be double the quoted ones, then that definitely is a solid basis to ask for a refund, if you don't want to wait. I don't know how easy it would be to take it, but at least we will stop speculating and we will know where we stand.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Y'know, I wonder how much time these days this thread is taking away from us actually playing the guitar?


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

mehegama said:


> That's why he need to post this statement. And the fact he can't even write few paragraphs in 2 weeks time it's making things seem even worse.



Because it's not just 'a few paragraphs'. 
I'm sure he knows that depending on what he says and how he words it, there's the possibility of a very visceral response. He has to figure out how to somehow bring a whole community up to speed on the inner workings of his business, and convey that information in a positive light somehow or risk taking a _*massive*_ blow to his reputation. Given the tenor of this thread, does anyone honestly think that people won't rip him to shreds if the statement posted isn't exactly what they want to hear? This isn't Dylan's first rodeo; he's well aware of all of the other shitstorms that we've mentioned in this thread, and definitely knows what the situation looks like as an outsider looking in. The job of changing that perception without sounding like you're full of shit or just shilling your brand is a really difficult task. I absolutely do not envy his situation. 

Yeah, two weeks for a written statement is a bit excessive; and given the current critiques of his business, _*really*_ not a good look right now, but I can't say I don't get it. I'd pick my words carefully too if there were people attacking my livelihood and I had to calm them down, _*especially*_ if there were mistakes I had to own up to. 

It's an interesting situation for sure. I definitely fall on Narad's side of the fence into the "you should have known this was coming" camp, but it's also certainly true that you shouldn't be in that situation to start with and the whole thing is just unfortunate.


----------



## diagrammatiks

Bettershredthandead said:


> Y'know, I wonder how much time these days this thread is taking away from us actually playing the guitar?



not exactly sure how I'm supposed to be playing guitar while I'm taking a shit.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

diagrammatiks said:


> not exactly sure how I'm supposed to be playing guitar while I'm taking a shit.



Oh, I thought posting on the can was just a Twitter thing.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

diagrammatiks said:


> not exactly sure how I'm supposed to be playing guitar while I'm taking a shit.



You don't keep a Gio in your bathroom so you can practice your sweeps on the can? Bro its like you don't even shred. 
But yeah probably 95% of my posts here are done while at work, where amplifiers are definitely frowned on.


----------



## mehegama

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Because it's not just 'a few paragraphs'.
> I'm sure he knows that depending on what he says and how he words it, there's the possibility of a very visceral response. He has to figure out how to somehow bring a whole community up to speed on the inner workings of his business, and convey that information in a positive light somehow or risk taking a _*massive*_ blow to his reputation. Given the tenor of this thread, does anyone honestly think that people won't rip him to shreds if the statement posted isn't exactly what they want to hear? This isn't Dylan's first rodeo; he's well aware of all of the other shitstorms that we've mentioned in this thread, and definitely knows what the situation looks like as an outsider looking in. The job of changing that perception without sounding like you're full of shit or just shilling your brand is a really difficult task. I absolutely do not envy his situation.
> 
> Yeah, two weeks for a written statement is a bit excessive; and given the current critiques of his business, _*really*_ not a good look right now, but I can't say I don't get it. I'd pick my words carefully too if there were people attacking my livelihood and I had to calm them down, _*especially*_ if there were mistakes I had to own up to.
> 
> It's an interesting situation for sure. I definitely fall on Narad's side of the fence into the "you should have known this was coming" camp, but it's also certainly true that you shouldn't be in that situation to start with and the whole thing is just unfortunate.


Given the situation, making the statement would have been my first priority. I did not say it is something that can be written in 10 mins, but 2 weeks? Come on.. Especially when the issue is the huge delivery delays. That does not send the right message at all.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Yeah, two weeks for a written statement is a bit excessive; and given the current critiques of his business, _*really*_ not a good look right now, but I can't say I don't get it. I'd pick my words carefully too if there were people attacking my livelihood and I had to calm them down, _*especially*_ if there were mistakes I had to own up to.
> 
> It's an interesting situation for sure. I definitely fall on Narad's side of the fence into the "you should have known this was coming" camp, but it's also certainly true that you shouldn't be in that situation to start with and the whole thing is just unfortunate.



Two weeks is actually a pretty standard timescale for responding to a complaint. It flies for courts, ombudsmen, HR departments, and so on. I think the issue some people are having with the statement is that it is both delayed (he said he'd respond in a week) and overdue. 

As long as it is honest and thorough, I think he'll be fine. You just don't want a situation where a bunch of customers are waiting to be briefed and you wind up with a non-answer simply acknowledging delays.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

People in this thread: Taking two weeks to give an update is justified because if he doesn't word it perfectly it could ruin his reputation. 

What people in this thread are ignoring: Every day he doesn't post a reply his reputation is taking a hit. 

If you cant pen an update over the course of (over) 140 waking hours in your first language then you have no business selling anything. 

This is BRJ all over again.


----------



## possumkiller

diagrammatiks said:


> not exactly sure how I'm supposed to be playing guitar while I'm taking a shit.


----------



## diagrammatiks

possumkiller said:


>




did he leave his amp in there.


----------



## SamSam

Ataraxia2320 said:


> People in this thread: Taking two weeks to give an update is justified because if he doesn't word it perfectly it could ruin his reputation.
> 
> What people in this thread are ignoring: Every day he doesn't post a reply his reputation is taking a hit.
> 
> If you cant pen an update over the course of (over) 140 waking hours in your first language then you have no business selling anything.
> 
> This is BRJ all over again.



It is far too soon to compare this to the BRJ situation. If you actually believe that you know nothing about that situation bar the end result.

If a two or three week delay prior to issuing a statement means finishing and shipping out an extra guitar or two it could add credence to his statement.

He will put a lot of thought into his statement. It is highly unlikely that it will be twitter fodder. That's not his style.


----------



## mbardu

SamSam said:


> It is far too soon to compare this to the BRJ situation. If you actually believe that you know nothing about that situation bar the end result.
> 
> If a two or three week delay prior to issuing a statement means finishing and shipping out an extra guitar or two it could add credence to his statement.
> 
> He will put a lot of thought into his statement. It is highly unlikely that it will be twitter fodder. That's not his style.



The BJR comparisons are indeed way premature.
And 2 weeks is not a big deal. Even more would be OK, at the timescales we're talking about.

Just like with the actual guitar builds though, it is important to set the right expectations and to meet them. That's what trust is made of.
If you need a month for a statement, say you need a month, not a week. If you need 5 years for a guitar, just say you need 5 years, not 3.
This is basic stuff. You should underpromise and/or overdeliver. And not overdeliver as in "deliver in over twice the promised time", that's not the right kind of overdelivery


----------



## Ataraxia2320

Ok maybe a bit premature but I cant understand how an update can take two weeks. 

Like how much careful thought do you need to say something along the lines of: 

My current wait list is x guitars long. 
The amount of time for a guitar to be completed is now roughly x months long. 
I am doing x y and z to alleviate the situation. 
Anyone who wants to get a refund write me here and I will refund you your cash/You aint gonna get a refund so buckle up. 

That's literally all anyone really cares about.


----------



## Werecow

diagrammatiks said:


> did he leave his amp in there.


I was expecting some sort of brown sound joke as the first reply to that. Don't know if i'm impressed or disappointed


----------



## mbardu

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Ok maybe a bit premature but I cant understand how an update can take two weeks.
> 
> Like how much careful thought do you need to say something along the lines of:
> 
> My current wait list is x guitars long.
> The amount of time for a guitar to be completed is now roughly x months long.
> I am doing x y and z to alleviate the situation.
> Anyone who wants to get a refund write me here and I will refund you your cash/You aint gonna get a refund so buckle up.
> 
> That's literally all anyone really cares about.



Maybe he's swamped building guitars 16 hours a day?
Maybe he only meant 1 week as a a super rough estimate and actually didn't think it through?
Maybe he's carefully weighing every single word as any misreading could have momentous impact for his business and lifelong passion?

What do I know, I'm just a guy on the internet but I'm less ruffled about waiting a few days for statement than I would be about being promised something in 3 years by a guy who knew it would take double that. Not matter though, as mentioned above none of that helps the trust.


----------



## mbardu

diagrammatiks said:


> did he leave his amp in there.



What you don't see is that attached to the back of his guitar strap, he has one of those small portable battery powered amps that he brings along with him to be 100% mobile, even when pooping. Don't you know Chuck Lorre is always at the forefront of realism?!?


----------



## feraledge

Just saying, y’all could have had some sick ESP customs...


----------



## mbardu

feraledge said:


> Just saying, y’all could have had some sick ESP customs...



I mean yeah, or they could have had 3 Kiesels that play just as good, or 10 used Prestiges - or 500 pretty big burritos for that matter 

But if you order a Daemoness (again, aside from those plain RG knock-offs that I still don't understand), it's because you like the works of that one pretty unique artist in the guitar world, and there's not anything else that will compare.


----------



## I play music

diagrammatiks said:


> not exactly sure how I'm supposed to be playing guitar while I'm taking a shit.


----------



## SamSam

feraledge said:


> Just saying, y’all could have had some sick ESP customs...



Why not both? Plus the ESP would have cost me more than twice the price.


----------



## mbardu

SamSam said:


> Why not both? Plus the ESP would have cost me more than twice the price.



True, plus a Private Stock and a couple of blackmachines too.
Are y'all made of money or wat


----------



## nickgray

mbardu said:


> or 10 used Prestiges



Sign me up.


----------



## mehegama

mbardu said:


> I mean yeah, or they could have had 3 Kiesels that play just as good, or 10 used Prestiges - or 500 pretty big burritos for that matter
> 
> But if you order a Daemoness (again, aside from those plain RG knock-offs that I still don't understand), it's because you like the works of that one pretty unique artist in the guitar world, and there's not anything else that will compare.


Indeed. Daemoness is about the inlays and the graphics (which by the way they cost quite a bit). The thing is if you wait for 5.5 years to get an RGD copy in plain wood and no inlays like the latest one sent and pay 5 grand for it, i cannot justify this. The flip side of this is that, at least myself, 2.5 years later i find these graphics super tacky on the guitar (beautiful paintings, no doubt), so that's an issue too.


----------



## mbardu

nickgray said:


> Sign me up.



A gray one, one with no paint left, and 8 in all those glorious shades of plain black.


----------



## nickgray

mbardu said:


> A gray one, one with no paint left, and 8 in all those glorious shades of plain black.



Still better than getting your Daemoness 20 years after the order


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> Indeed. Daemoness is about the inlays and the graphics (which by the way they cost quite a bit). The thing is if you wait for 5.5 years to get an RGD copy in plain wood and no inlays like the latest one sent and pay 5 grand for it, i cannot justify this. The flip side of this is that, at least myself, 2.5 years later i find these graphics super tacky on the guitar (beautiful paintings, no doubt), so that's an issue too.



Let's be realistic for a moment. 99.9% of any amazing unique custom design we come up with of our own volition are going to be mostly dogshit.

And having an rgd and my cimmerian side by side the differences are notable.


mbardu said:


> True, plus a Private Stock and a couple of blackmachines too.
> Are y'all made of money or wat



Now I wouldn't mind a private stock. But I'll pass on the BM.

I think my current herd would be considered acceptable to most people


----------



## feraledge

SamSam said:


> Why not both? Plus the ESP would have cost me more than twice the price.


I got an estimate from Dylan when the books reopened however many years ago now. It was more than my Horizon. 

Obviously I know nothing else is a Daemoness, but a guitar in hand always beats a theoretical one.


----------



## SamSam

feraledge said:


> I got an estimate from Dylan when the books reopened however many years ago now. It was more than my Horizon.
> 
> Obviously I know nothing else is a Daemoness, but a guitar in hand always beats a theoretical one.[/QUOT



What year did you buy your horizon?


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> Indeed. Daemoness is about the inlays and the graphics (which by the way they cost quite a bit). The thing is if you wait for 5.5 years to get an RGD copy in plain wood and no inlays like the latest one sent and pay 5 grand for it, i cannot justify this. The flip side of this is that, at least myself, 2.5 years later i find these graphics super tacky on the guitar (beautiful paintings, no doubt), so that's an issue too.


So basically you're saying you've grown out of the style and are having buyer's remorse?


----------



## feraledge

SamSam said:


> What year did you buy your horizon?


Got it spring of 2016? The estimate with Dylan was within a year of ordering my Horizon IIRC.


----------



## mbardu

feraledge said:


> I got an estimate from Dylan when the books reopened however many years ago now. It was more than my Horizon.
> 
> Obviously I know nothing else is a Daemoness, _*but a guitar in hand always beats a theoretical one.*_



Agreed 100%. So just imagine...not one, but 10 guitars in hand! 10 used Prestiges!
Or get this, 100 used first act guitars from GuitarCenter! Literally one hundred times more guitars! So much firewood for the winter!
Or let's not forget about all those burritos!!

All that just to say that (aside from those inexplicable plain RGs), if you order a Daemoness, aside from usually having enough guitars in hand already, you just don't _want _to order anything else. I would probably order a couple more TA and Kiesels before putting a deposit down, you'd probably order another Custom ESP first.
But the folks who order a Daemnoess, would just order a Daemoness. And that's perfectly fine- it would just be better if they had a realistic message as to when/if they can expect their guitars to show up.


----------



## SamSam

feraledge said:


> Got it spring of 2016? The estimate with Dylan was within a year of ordering my Horizon IIRC.



I must say I'm not familiar with current prices for daemoness guitars. Similar spec? Aren't standard order esp customs (the ones above the standard series?) More than 3k?


----------



## feraledge

SamSam said:


> I must say I'm not familiar with current prices for daemoness guitars. Similar spec? Aren't standard order esp customs (the ones above the standard series?) More than 3k?



Not similar specs, but not outside the range of expectation for either brand, hence the comparison. 
Been long enough, my Horizon was $5300, Daem estimate was $5.5-6.


----------



## SamSam

feraledge said:


> Not similar specs, but not outside the range of expectation for either brand, hence the comparison.
> Been long enough, my Horizon was $5300, Daem estimate was $5.5-6.



Damn, I'm glad I struck while the iron was hot


----------



## KnightBrolaire

feraledge said:


> Just saying, y’all could have had some sick ESP customs...


Somehow I doubt ESP is going to build me a ragnarok themed baritone explorer.


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> So basically you're saying you've grown out of the style and are having buyer's remorse?


Not really, but i ll definitely go with something simpler than the extravaganza i had in mind. Still counting on Dylan's creativity on this, if he ever has this guitar done.


----------



## mehegama

They would if you order it as a Japanese order and you play like 10 grand to get the airbrush and inlays. And also go to Japan to pick it up..


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> They would if you order it as a Japanese order and you play like 10 grand to get the airbrush and inlays. And also go to Japan to pick it up..



Dylan doesn't really do airbrush work though. That's not what we want from our daemoness guitars!


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Geez-louise....as its been said a billion times on this thread already you're going to Dylan in the first place cuz what he offers is pretty unique artistic wise and somewhat spec wise (I guess) plus uniquely customizable plus metal as fuck...Forget comparing Dylan to ESP, Kiesel (a few pages back) etc. etc. I can't speak for all Daemoness customers, but if I really wanted an ESP, I would have scoured sites like Reverb and the like and just picked something off there...probably used.

Its the time quote thing that is the real problem and then the pricing thing...however I fully expect at least 50 or so more comments like 'well if you go to blah, blah shop you'd be better off cuz blah, blah, blah spec blah, blah, blah'


----------



## SamSam

This is what I always think of when I think of hack job efforts to try and emulate the daemoness style themes. That gurning horse will fucking haunt me


----------



## Blytheryn

SamSam said:


> This is what I always think of when I think of hack job efforts to try and emulate the daemoness style themes. That gurning horse will fucking haunt me



That’s Fischer-Price as shit.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Have no idea how it plays, but the art on that thing is pretty much the equivalent of armpit ass. Would make anyone look like a dick on stage.


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> This is what I always think of when I think of hack job efforts to try and emulate the daemoness style themes. That gurning horse will fucking haunt me


There are some Cimmerians like the Malleus Maleficarum or the Purgatory that are beautiful pieces of art with out being tacky at all. Even Jari's which is much simpler, portrays autumn perfectly. Then you have others like the one with Sheeva which is pure circus and very tacky. I would prefer something more discrete, and artistically, I trust Dylan to give an amazing result just by telling him the general concept and direction and letting him decide how to do it. Unfortunately that's the only thing i would trust him with at this point.


----------



## SpaceDock

I


SamSam said:


> This is what I always think of when I think of hack job efforts to try and emulate the daemoness style themes. That gurning horse will fucking haunt me



Idk, I would play that, but I never take myself that seriously


----------



## mbardu

SpaceDock said:


> I
> 
> 
> Idk, I would play that, but I never take myself that seriously



If you don't take yourself seriously and play that on stage with a fake medieval helmet or some chain mail or something (bonus point for unrelated crakow shoes), I could see it being pretty hilarious, not gonna lie...

As an "art piece" next to Dylan's work though...big yikes...


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> There are some Cimmerians like the Malleus Maleficarum or the Purgatory that are beautiful pieces of art with out being tacky at all. Even Jari's which is much simpler, portrays autumn perfectly. Then you have others like the one with Sheeva which is pure circus and very tacky. I would prefer something more discrete, and artistically, I trust Dylan to give an amazing result just by telling him the general concept and direction and letting him decide how to do it. Unfortunately that's the only thing i would trust him with at this point.



Metal as fuck? Yes. Circus? Tacky? Shiva is holding Judas’s severed head dude.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Metal as fuck? Yes. Circus? Tacky? Shiva is holding Judas’s severed head dude.


It s an amazing drawing without a doubt, for my personal taste i would not put it on my guitar. I m sure the person who order it would love it and designs like that are Dylan's speciality. My original idea would have been something similar but with something from the Souls universe. As time passed thought it would be tacky so I will def tone the concept down for sure if my build ever go on.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> It s an amazing drawing without a doubt, for my personal taste i would not put it on my guitar. I m sure the person who order it would love it and designs like that are Dylan's speciality. My original idea would have been something similar but with something from the Souls universe. As time passed thought it would be tacky so I will def tone the concept down for sure if my build ever go on.



Fair play. I love the Souls series.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Fair play. I love the Souls series.


well metal and sword and sorcery games are my thing since i was like 10 (Baldur's Gate and Blind guardian for hours!) Thought it would be cool to have a souls themed guitar as all my Horizons are pretty classic in terms of looks and Dylan is the perfect man to implement a concept like this


----------



## arasys

mehegama said:


> well metal and sword and sorcery games are my thing since i was like 10 (Baldur's Gate and Blind guardian for hours!) Thought it would be cool to have a souls themed guitar as all my Horizons are pretty classic in terms of looks and Dylan is the perfect man to implement a concept like this



My inner nerd couldn't help but think of an illithid / mindflayer themed guitar with tadpoles as inlays when you mentioned Baldur's Gate. Blind Guardian's The Forgotten Tales and Battalions of Fear album covers could also be used as concepts too.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Kovah said:


> This is sheer Daemoness bashing at this point. I get why most people want a statement from him (by the way, if his business model is THAT flawed, his whole business and passion is at stake. I get why he'd need more than a week to write it, especially when he still has regular work to do). What I don't understand is why people who have clearly no intention of waiting any longer than 6 months want a statement telling them what they already know: build times are inaccurate and they won't get their guitar anytime soon. This statement won't get you a refund.



Lol, where is anybody who doesn't want to wait longer than 6 months? Literally nobody has said that.

In mid-2018 I was told 30 months. But I am now learning that there are people with Jan 2016 deposits who are still waiting to be contacted. That is 60 months.

There's a lot we don't know, and the longer the radio silence continues, the more our imaginations (and past experience) will fill the gaps...

We've seen the main admin/communication guy (Barnes) leave on bad terms

We've now seen a shockingly bad build from the company (OP's guitar), with no good explanation ("eye strain" is not believable). There are also unanswered questions about this guitar, such as why it was on social media in Feb 2019 but OP only received it in Oct 2019. (My own, unsubstantiated, theory is that OP's guitar was a hasty rebuild).

And nobody can get any answers from Dylan. He is apparently ghosting customers.

How ridiculous that we are relying on an Internet forum and a guy who can text Dylan to update us

That's why people are getting worried. And frankly, he does need to offer refunds of the downpayments people have made.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Somehow I doubt ESP is going to build me a ragnarok themed baritone explorer.



I think Japan custom shop would. But whether their artistic style is as good as Dylan, I don't know.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> Somehow I doubt ESP is going to build me a ragnarok themed baritone explorer.



Some years ago (maybe 6-7, when I used to hang out on the Australia boards where basically all the best custom ESP were being posted) there was one custom ESP where the guy wanted a signature or cursivey band logo inlayed across a few frets maybe 16-10 or so. The guy drew the board with the logo on the form, but the builders thought the board was supposed to be a rectangle so they inlaid this gigantic white block with a little black signature inside it. It was dreadful and hilarious. It's like when people get cakes and the icing design on the actual cake reads "Just put 'Janice' in cursive on the top", etc.

I have no doubt ESP has some of the technical skills to pull it off, but they're not artists in the way Dylan is so likely not the people to give a "theme" and just say, "go for it!"


----------



## MaxOfMetal

narad said:


> Some years ago (maybe 6-7, when I used to hang out on the Australia boards where basically all the best custom ESP were being posted) there was one custom ESP where the guy wanted a signature or cursivey band logo inlayed across a few frets maybe 16-10 or so. The guy drew the board with the logo on the form, but the builders thought the board was supposed to be a rectangle so they inlaid this gigantic white block with a little black signature inside it. It was dreadful and hilarious. It's like when people get cakes and the icing design on the actual cake reads "Just put 'Janice' in cursive on the top", etc.
> 
> I have no doubt ESP has some of the technical skills to pull it off, but they're not artists in the way Dylan is so likely not the people to give a "theme" and just say, "go for it!"



That was one of the guitarists for The Absence, ESP had it on thier Custom Shop Gallery page for years.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> Some years ago (maybe 6-7, when I used to hang out on the Australia boards where basically all the best custom ESP were being posted) there was one custom ESP where the guy wanted a signature or cursivey band logo inlayed across a few frets maybe 16-10 or so. The guy drew the board with the logo on the form, but the builders thought the board was supposed to be a rectangle so they inlaid this gigantic white block with a little black signature inside it. It was dreadful and hilarious. It's like when people get cakes and the icing design on the actual cake reads "Just put 'Janice' in cursive on the top", etc.
> 
> I have no doubt ESP has some of the technical skills to pull it off, but they're not artists in the way Dylan is so likely not the people to give a "theme" and just say, "go for it!"


The only other person I would trust to do what I want is Hutchinson Guitars. He's already done a ton of norse knotwork guitars and he has a great grasp on the minutiae of the style.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> The only other person I would trust to do what I want is Hutchinson Guitars. He's already done a ton of norse knotwork guitars and he has a great grasp on the minutiae of the style.



For sure. This is actually closer to what I wanted my first Daemoness to be like -- less a theme on the guitar, and more that the guitar convincingly could have been from the Viking era:






Sort of like an alt-universe


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> For sure. This is actually closer to what I wanted my first Daemoness to be like -- less a theme on the guitar, and more that the guitar convincingly could have been from the Viking era:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sort of like an alt-universe


Yeah I was kind of in the same boat for this build. I was toying with the idea of having a pine or elm top since shields were usually made of it. I was also playing with it being battleworn/antiqued, like someone repurposed old drakkar wood and shields to build a guitar.


----------



## Blytheryn

KnightBrolaire said:


> Yeah I was kind of in the same boat for this build. I was toying with the idea of having a pine or elm top since shields were usually made of it. I was also playing with it being battleworn/antiqued, like someone repurposed old drakkar wood and shields to build a guitar.



Kiiras guitars builds that kind of shit.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Blytheryn said:


> Kiiras guitars builds that kind of shit.


yeah but not in combination with knotwork.


----------



## Avedas

Man I get that viking/norse stuff is "in" right now, and I do love me some viking stuff myself, but I can't help but look at that the same way I look at guitars with random Chinese characters or "eastern" art all over them.


----------



## possumkiller

Idk man, a custom handmade intricate art guitar that a typical young metal player can afford on a summer job sounds pretty good until you find out there's a 12 year wait time.

That's probably why they don't tell you it's actually a 14 year wait.


----------



## Kovah

Flappydoodle said:


> Lol, where is anybody who doesn't want to wait longer than 6 months? Literally nobody has said that.
> 
> In mid-2018 I was told 30 months. But I am now learning that there are people with Jan 2016 deposits who are still waiting to be contacted. That is 60 months.
> 
> There's a lot we don't know, and the longer the radio silence continues, the more our imaginations (and past experience) will fill the gaps...
> 
> We've seen the main admin/communication guy (Barnes) leave on bad terms
> 
> We've now seen a shockingly bad build from the company (OP's guitar), with no good explanation ("eye strain" is not believable). There are also unanswered questions about this guitar, such as why it was on social media in Feb 2019 but OP only received it in Oct 2019. (My own, unsubstantiated, theory is that OP's guitar was a hasty rebuild).
> 
> And nobody can get any answers from Dylan. He is apparently ghosting customers.
> 
> How ridiculous that we are relying on an Internet forum and a guy who can text Dylan to update us
> 
> That's why people are getting worried. And frankly, he does need to offer refunds of the downpayments people have made.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Japan custom shop would. But whether their artistic style is as good as Dylan, I don't know.



I can understand your frustration, and my reply was mainly referring to mehegama who has stated multiple times he's only willing to give Dylan a bit more time. He clearly doesn't need a statement to tell him he won't get his guitar in less than 6 months, or 8 or 12 for that matter. The point is, if you're only waiting for his statement to cry on here that the delays are unacceptable and you want a refund you're wasting time. I suggest kindly asking IbanezDaemon for Dylan's phone number and ask for your refund.

As for Barnes leaving on bad terms, this is pure speculation from you. Countless people leave their jobs on bad terms everyday without the business bursting into flames. What's the next step? Dylan couldn't handle the emotional pressure of losing his social media guy and decided to leave everything behind?

I have obviously no explanation for OP's build, however the situation was handled properly.

I'm not saying he should not offer refunds, simply saying if that's what you really want, you're wasting your time in this thread waiting for a statement.

EDIT: I'm not even sure how he can provide build estimates since you're not locking specs when you put your deposit down. Obviously woodcarving and black magic inlaywork take (a lot) more time than a plain fretboard with black lacquer.


----------



## narad

I'd also like some confirmation about Barnes leaving on bad terms. 

Normally I'd take it at face value but this is from the same person that's pushing that OP's build is a rushed and potentially-outsourced rebuild conspiracy, and I think the same person talking about Dylan letting non-Artist-endorser youtubers skip the queue. We can and will talk shit all day but actually getting some confirmation on what the facts are would be a nice contribution to the thread.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I'd also like some confirmation about Barnes leaving on bad terms.
> 
> Normally I'd take it at face value but this is from the same person that's pushing that OP's build is a rushed and potentially-outsourced rebuild conspiracy, and I think the same person talking about Dylan letting non-Artist-endorser youtubers skip the queue. We can and will talk shit all day but actually getting some confirmation on what the facts are would be a nice contribution to the thread.


Someone here talked to him and confirmed they are on bad terms. Check some pages back to find the post. And this happened right after the shitstorm of this ngd.. timing is relevant for sure


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Someone here talked to him and confirmed they are on bad terms. Check some pages back to find the post. And this happened right after the shitstorm of this ngd.. timing is relevant for sure



Was this not the same person who originally claimed it? Like I want some clarification and details. Bad terms could mean anything in this case.


----------



## mehegama

Kovah said:


> I can understand your frustration, and my reply was mainly referring to mehegama who has stated multiple times he's only willing to give Dylan a bit more time. He clearly doesn't need a statement to tell him he won't get his guitar in less than 6 months, or 8 or 12 for that matter. The point is, if you're only waiting for his statement to cry on here that the delays are unacceptable and you want a refund you're wasting time. I suggest kindly asking IbanezDaemon for Dylan's phone number and ask for your refund.
> 
> As for Barnes leaving on bad terms, this is pure speculation from you. Countless people leave their jobs on bad terms everyday without the business bursting into flames. What's the next step? Dylan couldn't handle the emotional pressure of losing his social media guy and decided to leave everything behind?
> 
> I have obviously no explanation for OP's build, however the situation was handled properly.
> 
> I'm not saying he should not offer refunds, simply saying if that's what you really want, you're wasting your time in this thread waiting for a statement.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not even sure how he can provide build estimates since you're not locking specs when you put your deposit down. Obviously woodcarving and black magic inlaywork take (a lot) more time than a plain fretboard with black lacquer.


I don’t think you understood my point. First of all i agree 100% with @Flappydoodle and all the points he s making ( and i did too) are fair and describe the situation perfectly.
The reason i need the statemnet is so i can make a decision based on facts and not on speculation.
I m not stupid, we did the maths and there s no way i ll get my guitar in less than 3-4 years from now. But i need this info coming from him ( ihave already mailed/fb/ig him to get these estimation but he has ghosted me), in order to support my position to get my refund. 
I think you understand the difference. Besides, it is a matter of principal to get this info as respected clients. These days I went to older threads of BRJ, the ViK runs, Decibel, black macine etc. It s like a deja vu, the posts and their evolution are almost identical.. So I don’t want this one to end like these threads.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Was this not the same person who originally claimed it? Like I want some clarification and details. Bad terms could mean anything in this case.


But would that change anything, anyways? I mean, the OP confirmed that Barnes said to him that he had identified flaws before the guitar was sent, but the guitar was sent anyways. That surely can be a reason for leaving in bad terms, if what Barnes said is true.
In any case it does not change the reality of this shitty situation.


----------



## possumkiller

So the guitar in the op of this thread was outsourced? 

From where? 

Mexico is probably a bit more difficult to work with from Bristol than from California.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> But would that change anything, anyways? I mean, the OP confirmed that Barnes said to him that he had identified flaws before the guitar was sent, but the guitar was sent anyways. That surely can be a reason for leaving in bad terms, if what Barnes said is true.
> In any case it does not change the reality of this shitty situation.



I didn't see where OP said anything about Barnes identifying the flaws before the guitar sent and I DEFINITELY don't think that such a thing would naturally imply that Barnes left because of that. From someone who just a post ago said he didn't want any speculation (and on something there which is 100% obvious and inevitable -- you are not getting your guitar anytime soon) you're now speculating to an enormous degree. 

That sort of thing is precisely why I'd like some actual clarification on the Barnes situation.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I didn't see where OP said anything about Barnes identifying the flaws before the guitar sent and I DEFINITELY don't think that such a thing would naturally imply that Barnes left because of that. From someone who just a post ago said he didn't want any speculation (and on something there which is 100% obvious and inevitable -- you are not getting your guitar anytime soon) you're now speculating to an enormous degree.
> 
> That sort of thing is precisely why I'd like some actual clarification on the Barnes situation.


 Here is the post of the OP. I m not speculating at all. I m basing my thoughts on the info provided



frogman81 said:


> OP here. While the rebuild is possible, I think it’s an unlikely explanation. After speaking at length about the guitar on Skype with Barnes after he left Daemoness, there wasn’t really any hints at that (or outsourcing or anything else weird) having happened. My theory had been that Barnes largely built it, but he (Barnes) still maintains that he didn’t get involved more than some rough sanding and wiring. Barnes did admit to identifying flaws in the guitar that had to be rectified while it was still at the shop. My best attempt to explain the situation is that Dylan was focused on Kyle’s guitar and Vitriol’s tour and all the band promo stuff he was doing at the time, and my guitar was just another sausage to push out the end of the factory by that point and he didn’t really care about it.


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> Here is the post of the OP. I m not speculating at all. I m basing my thoughts on the info provided



The post you are basing your thoughts on is literally speculation.


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> The post you are basing your thoughts on is literally speculation.


Some people here want to debate for the sake of the debate..
I put the OP's post there because @narad said:


narad said:


> *I didn't see where OP said anything about Barnes identifying the flaws before the guitar sent *and I DEFINITELY don't think that such a thing would naturally imply that Barnes left because of that.


I said it above that what happened with Barnes is irrelevant to the situation, and also said few days ago that what happened between them is not my problem and it should not have affected the situation significantly anyways, as this 5 years thing is going on for years now.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> That was one of the guitarists for The Absence, ESP had it on thier Custom Shop Gallery page for years.


is this the one??


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> is this the one??
> 
> View attachment 83449



Yup.


----------



## possumkiller

mehegama said:


> is this the one??
> 
> View attachment 83449


I always looked at that in the gallery and wondered what kind of fucking moron ordered that inlay.


----------



## spudmunkey

Oh, holy crap...that's hilarious...I know someone mentioned a cake mistake above, but specifically, it reminds me if the story where someone brought in a USB thumb drive and said, "Can you put this on the cake?", and they literally drew the USB drive on the cake, in frosting.*






*word is still out of this was a real misunderstanding or if it was "staged", as far as I know...but still funny.


----------



## foreright

I quite like this one too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/7702913.stm


----------



## Pat

mehegama said:


> is this the one??
> 
> View attachment 83449


why the heck didn't he ask for a new neck??


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Pat said:


> why the heck didn't he ask for a new neck??



If I remember correctly, ESP wasn't being very accommodating. Shortly after they stopped using ESP.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

MaxOfMetal said:


> If I remember correctly, ESP wasn't being very accommodating. Shortly after they stopped using ESP.



Ouch. Not cool, unless it was totally at the fault of the dude ordering it.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

By all means debate the value and uniqueness of Daemoness from an artistic perspective, but no one should conflate that with criticism of other brands who tried and failed miserably at realising over-ambitious design requests. That has more to do with insane client expectations than poorly skilled luthiers.

The people who order these kinds of designs should just seek out an artist to do it instead. That's essentially the service Daemoness is offering. Obviously there is convenience in having a one-stop shop, but the typical arguments in favour of going this route (i.e. that it saves you time and money compared to outsourcing) might not be as slanted in Daemoness' favour as they once were.

As for that ESP guitar, I'd be surprised if that was even a mistake.

ESP probably assessed that the inlay design was too complicated to do by hand and that they didn't have the tech to do it in-house. So they approached some design shop with a laser engraver or CNC, and decided it was easier to just engrave a block of material and inlay that into the guitar instead of doing it directly on the fretboard. It's like the biggest, ugliest take on the EBMM Majesty block inlay I've ever seen 

In any case, what's a top-tier Daemoness going for these days? £4000+? Depending on the design, if you went 50/50 or 70/30 on the budget, you could probably get Daemoness-like results by outsourcing the design work to an accomplished artist.


----------



## frogman81

I'll chime in and shed a little more light on the Barnes situation. I spoke to Barnes on Skype on March 20th this year, for around 45 minutes. The core reason why Barnes left was that he wasn't making enough money to live on. He said that he was paid by a per-guitar commission that he and Dylan had agreed to, and that there just weren't enough guitars going out the door for him to get by. He said he never made half of what they agreed to, which was mainly due to "avoidable shortcomings in productivity". That quote is from an email from Matthew Barnes. I'm reluctant to spill much of Barnes private communication publicly, but I think some people deserve answers in this situation.

I'll also reiterate that Barnes admitted to me that he identified flaws on my guitar while it was at the shop. So I believe it follows that the neck pocket crack on my guitar that someone obviously tried to sand out, was present at the Daemoness shop and it was either them or the lacquerer that attempted to fix it and just gave up.

Now I'll just riff a little on my thoughts. Those of you that don't like opinions or speculation can feel free to stop here. 

I used to think that Dylan was a nice guy. I don't anymore. Back in 2012 I was probably as big of a Daemoness fan as they get. I believe there was a point where my first thought upon waking up in the morning was to check facebook to see if Daemoness had posted any new guitar pics. I put my deposit down in 2014, and visited the shop around 2015(?). I brought beers for Dylan, and we ended up having tea together. Just as a bit of trivia, I was hoping to walk in to a flurry of activity - frets being hammered, necks being sanded... but it was just Dylan chilling with a friend. To be fair this was after the shop renovation, but the shop was completely put back together. There just wasn't many guitars there. I spent about an hour at the shop, and didn't witness any work happen. I had hoped to see the double neck build and the Egypt build, but they weren't there, I believe they were at his home. I got to see the water drop inlay and it was legit awesome. I played the Cerberus build, and found it to be a pretty bland guitar. I asked Dylan if I could take some pics and he initially said yes, but then asked me not to photograph the few guitars on the wall (one was getting a finish upgrade and he didn't want customers to speculate about a problem with it I believe), and asked me not to photograph the build list. 

Fast forward to 2018-2019 and I find it hard to believe that Dylan could continue to work on promo material and freebie artist guitars, when not only were his customers waiting years over his own estimates (in my case even after having paid for my guitar in full I waited another 18 months), but his own friend and employee was struggling to make ends meet while customer guitars collected dust on the wall. I get it that an artist often needs/wants to work on what is inspiring him at the moment, but at some point you just have to put your head down and grind for awhile.

Nobody has really touched on the sort of mystical nature of Dylan's brand. When he was posting about mixing water from the River Jordan into the glue and knocking dust from the pompeii tile into the neck joint, I was EATING THAT UP in 2012-2015. Now I don't really care much about that mojo stuff, but it is another factor in why I chose a Daemoness over a nice Jackson or ESP. In fact, I think Dylan took the whole thing a little too far with the whole "painting a guitar with goat's blood" event. I have no problem that he used a by-product of the meat industry in a weird way, he was just so childish and celebratory about the whole thing that it really turned me off.

My specs were fairly subdued because I found that customer "theme" ideas occasionally went really awry for my tastes. I found that the spec builds (Old School Cimmerian that inspired mine, Egypt, World Edge Storm, etc...) always turned out great, but I've occasionally felt that customer theme builds miss the mark for me and didn't want to risk that. I actually tossed out an idea of "business in the front and party in the back" where the front of the guitar was just nice quilted maple, and the back was a full graphic Victorian Vampire Massacre scene, but Dylan didn't want to paint the back of the guitar for whatever reason. 

In speaking with Dylan and Barnes together on Skype last year when I asked for a refund, Dylan was pushing me to let him build another guitar. He was pretty arrogant about it and said things like "I get so much praise for my guitars that it's boring" and something like "I know can build you a guitar that will blow you away", and I was thinking "well I just gave you 5 years to do just that, so why didn't you do it then?" I was so over the brand there was no way I was going to wait for another Daemoness guitar. I didn't want any association with the train wreck that I viewed the Daemoness brand to be.

I have to admit that to my more basic, reptilian brain, misery loves company and I secretly enjoy(?) the direction this thread has taken. However, my higher level brain doesn't want others to end up in the same boat that I did. So I hope that Dylan can get his shit together and communicate to his customers, and grind out some nice guitars. I hope that the people that don't want to wait for that will get refunds, but even if they don't I think some should just walk away, buy themselves a nice used Jackson Custom Shop build, and enjoy life and guitar.


----------



## narad

frogman81 said:


> I have to admit that to my more basic, reptilian brain, misery loves company and I secretly enjoy(?) the direction this thread has taken. However, my higher level brain doesn't want others to end up in the same boat that I did. So I hope that Dylan can get his shit together and communicate to his customers, and grind out some nice guitars. I hope that the people that don't want to wait for that will get refunds, but even if they don't I think some should just walk away, buy themselves a nice used Jackson Custom Shop build, and enjoy life and guitar.



What's your boat though? Am I right in hearing that your guitar went to another guy and you got a refund?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

@frogman81: good post. You illuminated what I feared was the problem: a good bit of goofing off plus don't give a shit attitude. That's hard to fix to because its all about attitude and ethics at this point. When seeing this mentality from a manufacturer, its definitely not assuring but I hope Dylan sees the light here and does right by his customers somehow.


----------



## Sick and destroyed.

I know I'm a newbie in here and my opinion doesn't count, but fuck me, god bless you all that put your money and trust in Daemoness and Dylan. I nearly sent him 600£ back in early 2017 and now I praise the Lord I didn't. Ordered another custom instead, got what I paid for within time frame given.


----------



## frogman81

narad said:


> What's your boat though? Am I right in hearing that your guitar went to another guy and you got a refund?



Narad, you are correct but my patience for your devotion to Daemoness is wearing thin. Do you think that because I waited 65 months for a guitar, saved and shelled out $5K, to receive a turd and then have to box it up again and ship it back across the ocean, wait for a refund, apply to Canada Customs and Border services for the customs and taxes refund, fight with them because it was such a strange case (still waiting for that $628 cheque), that everything should be hunky dory? Does opportunity cost mean anything to you? It's not like I ordered a guitar form Sweetwater, didn't like it, and sent it back for a refund within a month.

I know that you could probably receive a guitar painted in Dylan's own feces and thank him for it, but other people have different standards than you.


----------



## narad

frogman81 said:


> Narad, you are correct but my patience for your devotion to Daemoness is wearing thin. Do you think that because I waited 65 months for a guitar, saved and shelled out $5K, to receive a turd and then have to box it up again and ship it back across the ocean, wait for a refund, apply to Canada Customs and Border services for the customs and taxes refund, fight with them because it was such a strange case (still waiting for that $628 cheque), that everything should be hunky dory? Does opportunity cost mean anything to you? It's not like I ordered a guitar form Sweetwater, didn't like it, and sent it back for a refund within a month.
> 
> I know that you could probably receive a guitar painted in Dylan's own feces and thank him for it, but other people have different standards than you.



Chill out. I never claimed that it wasn't a shit situation, and am just trying to confirm the facts of what actually happened after 54 pages of general asshatery.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

frogman81 said:


> I know that you could probably receive a guitar painted in Dylan's own feces and thank him for it,


I'm surprised we haven't had the equivalent of Marcel Duchamp in the guitar business yet


----------



## SpaceDock

frogman81 said:


> I know that you could probably receive a guitar painted in Dylan's own feces and thank him for it.


----------



## possumkiller

So you're telling me the humble, hard working, passionate, devoted artist stuff was just a front all over social media to convince a bunch of boobs on the internet to worship him and hand over fistfuls of money for the privilege of waiting 5-6 years for him to maybe build them a guitar that may or may not have a bunch of defects?


----------



## mehegama

frogman81 said:


> I'll chime in and shed a little more light on the Barnes situation. I spoke to Barnes on Skype on March 20th this year, for around 45 minutes. The core reason why Barnes left was that he wasn't making enough money to live on. He said that he was paid by a per-guitar commission that he and Dylan had agreed to, and that there just weren't enough guitars going out the door for him to get by. He said he never made half of what they agreed to, which was mainly due to "avoidable shortcomings in productivity". That quote is from an email from Matthew Barnes. I'm reluctant to spill much of Barnes private communication publicly, but I think some people deserve answers in this situation.
> 
> I'll also reiterate that Barnes admitted to me that he identified flaws on my guitar while it was at the shop. So I believe it follows that the neck pocket crack on my guitar that someone obviously tried to sand out, was present at the Daemoness shop and it was either them or the lacquerer that attempted to fix it and just gave up.
> 
> Now I'll just riff a little on my thoughts. Those of you that don't like opinions or speculation can feel free to stop here.
> 
> I used to think that Dylan was a nice guy. I don't anymore. Back in 2012 I was probably as big of a Daemoness fan as they get. I believe there was a point where my first thought upon waking up in the morning was to check facebook to see if Daemoness had posted any new guitar pics. I put my deposit down in 2014, and visited the shop around 2015(?). I brought beers for Dylan, and we ended up having tea together. Just as a bit of trivia, I was hoping to walk in to a flurry of activity - frets being hammered, necks being sanded... but it was just Dylan chilling with a friend. To be fair this was after the shop renovation, but the shop was completely put back together. There just wasn't many guitars there. I spent about an hour at the shop, and didn't witness any work happen. I had hoped to see the double neck build and the Egypt build, but they weren't there, I believe they were at his home. I got to see the water drop inlay and it was legit awesome. I played the Cerberus build, and found it to be a pretty bland guitar. I asked Dylan if I could take some pics and he initially said yes, but then asked me not to photograph the few guitars on the wall (one was getting a finish upgrade and he didn't want customers to speculate about a problem with it I believe), and asked me not to photograph the build list.
> 
> Fast forward to 2018-2019 and I find it hard to believe that Dylan could continue to work on promo material and freebie artist guitars, when not only were his customers waiting years over his own estimates (in my case even after having paid for my guitar in full I waited another 18 months), but his own friend and employee was struggling to make ends meet while customer guitars collected dust on the wall. I get it that an artist often needs/wants to work on what is inspiring him at the moment, but at some point you just have to put your head down and grind for awhile.
> 
> Nobody has really touched on the sort of mystical nature of Dylan's brand. When he was posting about mixing water from the River Jordan into the glue and knocking dust from the pompeii tile into the neck joint, I was EATING THAT UP in 2012-2015. Now I don't really care much about that mojo stuff, but it is another factor in why I chose a Daemoness over a nice Jackson or ESP. In fact, I think Dylan took the whole thing a little too far with the whole "painting a guitar with goat's blood" event. I have no problem that he used a by-product of the meat industry in a weird way, he was just so childish and celebratory about the whole thing that it really turned me off.
> 
> My specs were fairly subdued because I found that customer "theme" ideas occasionally went really awry for my tastes. I found that the spec builds (Old School Cimmerian that inspired mine, Egypt, World Edge Storm, etc...) always turned out great, but I've occasionally felt that customer theme builds miss the mark for me and didn't want to risk that. I actually tossed out an idea of "business in the front and party in the back" where the front of the guitar was just nice quilted maple, and the back was a full graphic Victorian Vampire Massacre scene, but Dylan didn't want to paint the back of the guitar for whatever reason.
> 
> In speaking with Dylan and Barnes together on Skype last year when I asked for a refund, Dylan was pushing me to let him build another guitar. He was pretty arrogant about it and said things like "I get so much praise for my guitars that it's boring" and something like "I know can build you a guitar that will blow you away", and I was thinking "well I just gave you 5 years to do just that, so why didn't you do it then?" I was so over the brand there was no way I was going to wait for another Daemoness guitar. I didn't want any association with the train wreck that I viewed the Daemoness brand to be.
> 
> I have to admit that to my more basic, reptilian brain, misery loves company and I secretly enjoy(?) the direction this thread has taken. However, my higher level brain doesn't want others to end up in the same boat that I did. So I hope that Dylan can get his shit together and communicate to his customers, and grind out some nice guitars. I hope that the people that don't want to wait for that will get refunds, but even if they don't I think some should just walk away, buy themselves a nice used Jackson Custom Shop build, and enjoy life and guitar.


Thanks for the thoughts. I thought the situation is pretty clear and does not look good.


----------



## SamSam

possumkiller said:


> So you're telling me the humble, hard working, passionate, devoted artist stuff was just a front all over social media to convince a bunch of boobs on the internet to worship him and hand over fistfuls of money for the privilege of waiting 5-6 years for him to maybe build them a guitar that may or may not have a bunch of defects?



Or perhaps the hype has gotten to him over time and he's dived deep into it? Humility is a terrible thing to lose.


----------



## possumkiller

SamSam said:


> Or perhaps the hype has gotten to him over time and he's dived deep into it? Humility is a terrible thing to lose.


He should just go the black machine route. Build two or three guitars a year. Charge 20k each. They will hang on the wall of some rich asshole's places so there's no need for them to play well. All the internet fanboys can still drool and worship. 

Leave the good guitars that a typical young metal player can afford on a summer job to people like Schecter, LTD, and used prestiges.


----------



## SamSam

SamSam said:


> It started off as a suggestion, since it's on topic as its the same brand. It wasn't blown out of proportion until you decided to go ham on it.





possumkiller said:


> He should just go the black machine route. Build two or three guitars a year. Charge 20k each. They will hang on the wall of some rich asshole's places so there's no need for them to play well. All the internet fanboys can still drool and worship.
> 
> Leave the good guitars that a typical young metal player can afford on a summer job to people like Schecter, LTD, and used prestiges.



He's too deep in deposits to do that now. If he wasn't accepting deposits he could have just close the list and done something along those lines.


----------



## c7spheres

I'm telling ya. Outsource to India or China. Many people would be willing to have an Egypt guitar clone with a clear coated over graphic for $199 and made of balsa wood. Hey, he could make reproductions from resin like other artists do with their sculptures. Oops, Oh wait a minute. 
- Sorry just trying to bring some humor. I really do feel bad for everyone invested in the situation though. I hope it works out in the end for everyone.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

possumkiller said:


> He should just go the black machine route..



I do think it will go that way eventually. Any stock guitars I've seen go up for sale have gone very quickly, some of them
inside an hour of being posted.


----------



## mehegama

frogman81 said:


> "avoidable shortcomings in productivity"


I think this is the key word to the situation..


----------



## spudmunkey

I mean...have you played _Breath of the Wild_, though? Reduced productivity is kind of unavoidable.


----------



## Vyn

spudmunkey said:


> I mean...have you played _Breath of the Wild_, though? Reduced productivity is kind of unavoidable.



There's reduced productivity (ie taking 8 hours to do 4 hours of work) and then there's reduced productivity (ie having days, weeks, even months of literally doing nothing work-related). I'm going to take a stab at guessing that in this case it's the latter.


----------



## mbardu

spudmunkey said:


> I mean...have you played _Breath of the Wild_, though? Reduced productivity is kind of unavoidable.



Looking for a reply, but I hesitate between:

_Just think of Hetsu - those 999 golden poops ain't gonna catch themselves!_

Or:

_What are you talking about? If you learn to clip into shrines, cancel fall damage, boulder jump and bullet time bounce, you're done in 30 minutes._


Which are pretty much the 2 ways to play the game.


----------



## NewCultKing

Not to ruffle anymore feathers, but anyone else saw an artist post their Daemoness build progress on IG yesterday?


----------



## Vyn

NewCultKing said:


> Not to ruffle anymore feathers, but anyone else saw an artist post their Daemoness build progress on IG yesterday?



Which artist?


----------



## mbardu

Vyn said:


> Which artist?



oooOOOoooOOOooo I can sense that some feathers are going to be ruffled.
Are we saying feathers instead of Jimmies now btw?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

NewCultKing said:


> Not to ruffle anymore feathers, but anyone else saw an artist post their Daemoness build progress on IG yesterday?


which artist?
I didn't see any new daemoness related posts


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Well, now it all makes sense. I remember shortly after I put in the deposit, Dylan was hitting social media. Hard. A video blog here, a Deafhaven dis there, and even going on FB and ripping on stuff there. I wondered, how the heck does he find the time to make all these guitars in between making videos on youtube and statements on FB? It seems around that time there was a serious transition from artist to social media figure. Among other things I suppose...

'Avoidable shortcomings in productivity'. Ha! Its almost poetic. I think many others would have used less endearing terms.


----------



## Vyn

mbardu said:


> oooOOOoooOOOooo I can sense that some feathers are going to be ruffled.
> Are we saying feathers instead of Jimmies now btw?



Feathers are ruffled, Jimmies are rustled


----------



## mbardu

Vyn said:


> Feathers are ruffled, Jimmies are rustled



Oh nooo what have i done... shame on me


----------



## NewCultKing

I think one of the Vitriol dudes? Went through my IG stories feed to find it but I guess it had expired. If I remember correctly it was a scarf headstock glued together


----------



## Flappydoodle

Kovah said:


> I can understand your frustration, and my reply was mainly referring to mehegama who has stated multiple times he's only willing to give Dylan a bit more time. He clearly doesn't need a statement to tell him he won't get his guitar in less than 6 months, or 8 or 12 for that matter. The point is, if you're only waiting for his statement to cry on here that the delays are unacceptable and you want a refund you're wasting time. I suggest kindly asking IbanezDaemon for Dylan's phone number and ask for your refund.
> 
> As for Barnes leaving on bad terms, this is pure speculation from you. Countless people leave their jobs on bad terms everyday without the business bursting into flames. What's the next step? Dylan couldn't handle the emotional pressure of losing his social media guy and decided to leave everything behind?
> 
> I have obviously no explanation for OP's build, however the situation was handled properly.
> 
> I'm not saying he should not offer refunds, simply saying if that's what you really want, you're wasting your time in this thread waiting for a statement.
> 
> EDIT: I'm not even sure how he can provide build estimates since you're not locking specs when you put your deposit down. Obviously woodcarving and black magic inlaywork take (a lot) more time than a plain fretboard with black lacquer.



I don't think this is correct. 

Firstly, if Dylan will state that the build will take literally 2x longer than estimated, that does give you the right to a refund of your downpayment under UK law. It's the ghosting of paying customers which is the problem, leaving them in a limbo situation.

As for build estimates, that's for HIM to figure out. He's doing this as a profit-making business. If he can't plan his own workflow, estimate his output etc, it is destined to fail.



narad said:


> I'd also like some confirmation about Barnes leaving on bad terms.
> 
> Normally I'd take it at face value but this is from the same person that's pushing that OP's build is a rushed and potentially-outsourced rebuild conspiracy, and I think the same person talking about Dylan letting non-Artist-endorser youtubers skip the queue. We can and will talk shit all day but actually getting some confirmation on what the facts are would be a nice contribution to the thread.



You're talking about me. 

I can PM you a screenshot of my WhatsApp conversation with Barnes, if you'd like?



frogman81 said:


> In speaking with Dylan and Barnes together on Skype last year when I asked for a refund, Dylan was pushing me to let him build another guitar. He was pretty arrogant about it and said things like "I get so much praise for my guitars that it's boring" and something like "I know can build you a guitar that will blow you away", and I was thinking "well I just gave you 5 years to do just that, so why didn't you do it then?" I was so over the brand there was no way I was going to wait for another Daemoness guitar. I didn't want any association with the train wreck that I viewed the Daemoness brand to be.



You are 100% correct with your observations there. 

The ego is something I mentioned before when I was talking about Dylan doing lots of artist builds and talking about queue skipping. People were saying it wouldn't make financial sense, or business sense. However, they are ignoring the role of ego and arrogance.

The story, as I know it, is that person X was getting a guitar from company Y. Dylan says to person X, "ah, that company is shit. I can build you something better etc etc".


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> I can PM you a screenshot of my WhatsApp conversation with Barnes, if you'd like?



Sure, hit me up.



Flappydoodle said:


> The story, as I know it, is that person X was getting a guitar from company Y. Dylan says to person X, "ah, that company is shit. I can build you something better etc etc".



Who it is and their build details is kinda important though. If it's like a metal musician who happens to be biggish on youtube, then I could see it as more of an artist build. If it's like Jared Dines or Steve Terreberry whatever, then I'm very disappointed. If it's an artist and they're in front-queue artist time, well, it could make sense. If it's youtuber back of the queue, also fine. If it's youtube front of the queue...hmmmm....


----------



## Acme

narad said:


> Sure, hit me up.
> 
> 
> 
> Who it is and their build details is kinda important though. If it's like a metal musician who happens to be biggish on youtube, then I could see it as more of an artist build. If it's like Jared Dines or Steve Terreberry whatever, then I'm very disappointed. If it's an artist and they're in front-queue artist time, well, it could make sense. If it's youtuber back of the queue, also fine. If it's youtube front of the queue...hmmmm....


It doesn’t matter who it is. For instance, when you are swamped, things like agreeing to install Evertunes on Jari’s all Ibanezes is totally unacceptable. He should have told that asshole to give those guitars to a local guitar tech.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Acme said:


> It doesn’t matter who it is. For instance, when you are swamped, things like agreeing to install Evertunes on Jari’s all Ibanezes is totally unacceptable. He should have told that asshole to give those guitars to a local guitar tech.



Like it or not, marketing is part of the business. Without it, the business could fold and then _nobody_ gets a guitar. 

Bridge route and installs aren't rocket science, I've done plenty of trem retrofits, which would be the closest thing to an Evertune install. So I don't think propping that up as a significant reason other work isn't getting done (if it isn't getting done, I don't think anyone knows what is or isn't in process and where it's at in said process) makes sense. 

Not defending the situation Dylan has gotten himself into, but all the calls to be "better at business" seem to neglect the overall function of what that means.


----------



## xzacx

So don't get accused of being a fanboy, I'll start by saying I think 95% of Daemoness guitars I've seen are goofy and tacky. I like art and I like guitars, but art plastered on guitars in the form of graphics and inlays is rarely cool to me. I do like the plain ones because I think the carves are really nice. With that said, I'm glad I don't have a deposit down, but continuing to finish guitars and refunding unhappy customers seems to be a different situation than what happened with a lot of the builders that have been brought up here. This comes across like one guy who won't actually be patient despite saying he's willing to be patient, that keeps bringing it up, rather than some big conspiracy that's going on. There's no doubt it's not an ideal situation and I imagine I'd be disappointed if I went into a deposit with certain expectations, but I feel like the only thing I've seen actual evidence of so far is poor communication and builds taking considerably longer than expected.


----------



## mbardu

xzacx said:


> So don't get accused of being a fanboy, I'll start by saying I think 95% of Daemoness guitars I've seen are goofy and tacky. I like art and I like guitars, but art plastered on guitars in the form of graphics and inlays is rarely cool to me. I do like the plain ones because I think the carves are really nice. With that said, I'm glad I don't have a deposit down, but continuing to finish guitars and refunding unhappy customers seems to be a different situation than what happened with a lot of the builders that have been brought up here. This comes across like one guy who won't actually be patient despite saying he's willing to be patient, that keeps bringing it up, rather than some big conspiracy that's going on. There's no doubt it's not an ideal situation and I imagine I'd be disappointed if I went into a deposit with certain expectations, but I feel like *the only thing I've seen actual evidence of so far is poor communication and builds taking considerably longer than expected*.



And actual finish on at least one recent build being pretty questionable.
But you're right, it is really first and foremost about builds taking _considerably _longer than expected. 
It's just that if you're getting into the territory of 6 years actual vs 3 years quoted (not just a few months more), it does kinda become a problem. Especially if the builder gave the 3 years estimate and continued to take deposits (as recently as 2018/2019 apparently) knowing full well that this was nowhere near realistic. Oh- and it's not only the one guy either.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> Like it or not, marketing is part of the business. Without it, the business could fold and then _nobody_ gets a guitar.
> 
> Bridge route and installs aren't rocket science, I've done plenty of trem retrofits, which would be the closest thing to an Evertune install. So I don't think propping that up as a significant reason other work isn't getting done (if it isn't getting done, I don't think anyone knows what is or isn't in process and where it's at in said process) makes sense.
> 
> Not defending the situation Dylan has gotten himself into, but all the calls to be "better at business" seem to neglect the overall function of what that means.



Sure, but that's seriously stretching it, isn't it?

If you have a build queue 3+ years long, and you've taken deposits for (presumably) 50+ builds, do you need more marketing?

That only makes sense if you are still trying to attract more deposits, which does lend itself to the "pyramid scheme" described a few pages back.

Maybe marketing should be a constant thing. But wouldn't the best marketing be to deliver more completed guitars to customers? Each completed build gets a new IG/FB post, shows your broad capabilities, inspires more people to want one. Installing new bridges on a bunch of Ibanez guitars just seems like a waste of time. Strange priorities at the very least.



xzacx said:


> So don't get accused of being a fanboy, I'll start by saying I think 95% of Daemoness guitars I've seen are goofy and tacky. I like art and I like guitars, but art plastered on guitars in the form of graphics and inlays is rarely cool to me. I do like the plain ones because I think the carves are really nice. With that said, I'm glad I don't have a deposit down, but continuing to finish guitars and refunding unhappy customers seems to be a different situation than what happened with a lot of the builders that have been brought up here. This comes across like one guy who won't actually be patient despite saying he's willing to be patient, that keeps bringing it up, rather than some big conspiracy that's going on. There's no doubt it's not an ideal situation and I imagine I'd be disappointed if I went into a deposit with certain expectations, but I feel like the only thing I've seen actual evidence of so far is poor communication and builds taking considerably longer than expected.



Thing is, when you start to totally ignore your customers, give BS excuses ("eye strain") for sloppy builds, and provide zero updates... peoples' imaginations start to wander.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> Sure, but that's seriously stretching it, isn't it?
> 
> If you have a build queue 3+ years long, and you've taken deposits for (presumably) 50+ builds, do you need more marketing?
> 
> That only makes sense if you are still trying to attract more deposits, which does lend itself to the "pyramid scheme" described a few pages back.
> 
> Maybe marketing should be a constant thing. But wouldn't the best marketing be to deliver more completed guitars to customers? Each completed build gets a new IG/FB post, shows your broad capabilities, inspires more people to want one. Installing new bridges on a bunch of Ibanez guitars just seems like a waste of time. Strange priorities at the very least.



It doesn't have to be one or the other though, which is part of what I said.


----------



## Blytheryn

NewCultKing said:


> Not to ruffle anymore feathers, but anyone else saw an artist post their Daemoness build progress on IG yesterday?



Name please.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> It doesn't have to be one or the other though, which is part of what I said.



Sure. Either way, an incredibly ineffective use of his time *facepalm*


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Flappydoodle said:


> Sure. Either way, an incredibly ineffective use of his time *facepalm*



I mean, it's not like building a guitar is just 24/7 non-stop labor. Things have to set, they have to cure, they have to dry, they have to develop, etc. Your average guitar has more time "waiting" than actually being worked on, and the capacity at other points in the process determines just how much you can do while all that happens.

I know it's easy to just think of it as Dylan choosing to be a dick and not work on your guitars out of spite, but if he has as many orders as you suggest, all the "just get to work" in the world isn't going to make a bit of difference if the capacity is at the limit and you're far back in the queue.

He very well could decide that he doesn't want to build your guitar, and that would make him an asshole, but it's probably not because he spent a few hours throwing a different bridge on an already made guitar, or answering some IG DMs.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, it's not like building a guitar is just 24/7 non-stop labor. Things have to set, they have to cure, they have to dry, they have to develop, etc. Your average guitar has more time "waiting" than actually being worked on, and the capacity at other points in the process determines just how much you can do while all that happens.
> 
> I know it's easy to just think of it as Dylan choosing to be a dick and not work on your guitars out of spite, but if he has as many orders as you suggest, all the "just get to work" in the world isn't going to make a bit of difference if the capacity is at the limit and you're far back in the queue.
> 
> He very well could decide that he doesn't want to build your guitar, and that would make him an asshole, but it's probably not because he spent a few hours throwing a different bridge on an already made guitar, or answering some IG DMs.


the issue is that Daemoness is probably the only one man shop (bar maybe KL and all the scammers like vik, deciebel, BRJ etc.) that takes him 5-6 years to finish a guitar. How much time does it take to paint a damn body? As for inlays the vast majority are quite simple ones. There are some extravagant cases but come on. Given all the info we have it is obvious he is lazy and takes his time. Add this other distractions that people have reported and you have the current disaster.


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> I mean, it's not like building a guitar is just 24/7 non-stop labor. Things have to set, they have to cure, they have to dry, they have to develop, etc. Your average guitar has more time "waiting" than actually being worked on, and the capacity at other points in the process determines just how much you can do while all that happens.
> 
> I know it's easy to just think of it as Dylan choosing to be a dick and not work on your guitars out of spite, but if he has as many orders as you suggest, all the "just get to work" in the world isn't going to make a bit of difference if the capacity is at the limit and you're far back in the queue.
> 
> He very well could decide that he doesn't want to build your guitar, and that would make him an asshole, but it's probably not because he spent a few hours throwing a different bridge on an already made guitar, or answering some IG DMs.



Well, no, this IS my overall point. There seems to be something fundamentally wrong with the priorities and organisation of this business.

I don't think he's deliberately being a dick or anything like that. But a person doing this for a living for 10 years should (hopefully) have a process where things are done to minimise the time you are sat around waiting for things. You work on multiple instruments, staggering the process so that you can make progress on one job while another is curing/drying/etc. This is necessary when you have limited quantities equipment/tools (clamps, routers etc) and bench space, so you actually can't have every guitar at the same stage.

Hell, you were the second post in this entire thread, pointing out that this guitar was photographed looking completed on Instagram in February and OP didn't get it until October. So clearly there are some massive inefficiencies somewhere in the process of building guitars and getting them to customers.

And in the unavoidable downtimes during guitar building, the priorities SHOULD be customer service, updating the website, managing your build queue, planning the next steps etc. Installing bridges on other guitars, building entire extra guitars for artists and youtubers, painting canvases etc is not a sensible use of time when there are glaring deficiencies in the way the business is run. 

The most obvious one is that when the workshop closes for 3 months (Covid) and you definitely aren't working on any guitars... why not answer some emails?

The problem is, we are all speculating because there has been no response from him and there is a big knowledge gap now, with no transparency about the size of the build queue, the number of guitars completed per year etc. (Of course, we have no right to know any of that, but it would definitely be nice to really understand the situation.)


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> the issue is that Daemoness is probably the only one man shop (bar maybe KL and all the scammers like vik, deciebel, BRJ etc.) that takes him 5-6 years to finish a guitar. How much time does it take to paint a damn body? As for inlays the vast majority are quite simple ones. There are some extravagant cases but come on. Given all the info we have it is obvious he is lazy and takes his time. Add this other distractions that people have reported and you have the current disaster.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it _*the time before the build*_ that's taking long, and not specifically the process? 

If you're actually asking, depending on the finish type and equipment, it can be as much as 30 days to completely cure, though that wouldn't be a direct factor as Daemoness outsources finish work, so they'd be at the mercy of the vendor there. 

Re: Inlay: do you want him to do the "simple" inlays first to get guitars moving through the process, or do you want it first in/first out? It's a one man operation, any inlay work (and anything specialty in general) will slow the orders after it. So if your guitar is basic, but there are half a dozen super complex ones ahead of it, there will be increased waiting. Unless you want the queue to skip around. But weren't folks getting mad about that too?


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> Add this other distractions that people have reported and you have the current disaster.



Some intense verbiage there. It’s hardly a disaster. You SSO guys just can’t chill.


----------



## possumkiller

No no no no...

That is the completely wrong mentality. SSO made this guy famous and now it's time for SSO to destroy him.


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> the issue is that Daemoness is probably the only one man shop (bar maybe KL and all the scammers like vik, deciebel, BRJ etc.) that takes him 5-6 years to finish a guitar. How much time does it take to paint a damn body? As for inlays the vast majority are quite simple ones. There are some extravagant cases but come on. Given all the info we have it is obvious he is lazy and takes his time. Add this other distractions that people have reported and you have the current disaster.



Large scale body art can take over a week. Inlays? Easily days as well. The art work on mine took ages (quoting Dylan there) and that is arguably simpler than a full colour, highly detailed illustration.

So yes, artwork alone consumes a huge amount of time. Again, not saying that the current situation is acceptable. However it does go to show how ignorant many individuals are when it comes to actual labour hours for specific tasks.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Some intense verbiage there. It’s hardly a disaster. You SSO guys just can’t chill.


If you think the word disaster is too strong i can recall it. My point is that his business is very disorganised.



MaxOfMetal said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it _*the time before the build*_ that's taking long, and not specifically the process?
> 
> If you're actually asking, depending on the finish type and equipment, it can be as much as 30 days to completely cure, though that wouldn't be a direct factor as Daemoness outsources finish work, so they'd be at the mercy of the vendor there.
> 
> Re: Inlay: do you want him to do the "simple" inlays first to get guitars moving through the process, or do you want it first in/first out? It's a one man operation, any inlay work (and anything specialty in general) will slow the orders after it. So if your guitar is basic, but there are half a dozen super complex ones ahead of it, there will be increased waiting. Unless you want the queue to skip around. But weren't folks getting mad about that too?


But it seems to be both: huge wait lists for taking way too many deposits and very slow progress in the actual builds due to "Avoidable shortcomings in productivity"


----------



## MaxOfMetal

SamSam said:


> However it does go to show how ignorant many individuals are when it comes to actual labour hours for specific tasks.



Reminds me of folks who tell thier plumber how to fix the shitter.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> If you think the word disaster is too strong i can recall it. My point is that his business is very disorganised.
> 
> 
> But it seems to be both: huge wait lists for taking way too many deposits and very slow progress in the actual builds due to "Avoidable shortcomings in productivity"



I can’t argue that. Fair point.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> But it seems to be both: huge wait lists for taking way too many deposits and very slow progress in the actual builds due to "Avoidable shortcomings in productivity"



I don't know why folks take Barnes' word as gospel. Wasn't he the dude dishing out a lot of the "inaccurate" wait time estimates? 

I honestly wouldn't trust the word of anyone involved unless there's more truth/information given.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know why folks take Barnes' word as gospel. Wasn't he the dude dishing out a lot of the "inaccurate" wait time estimates?
> 
> I honestly wouldn't trust the word of anyone involved unless there's more truth/information given.


Well a statement was supposed to go out 2 weeks ago. Not that I expect him to talk about these things. 
In any case I would agree with the thoughts of the OP as they make sense given the info we have. And that is my personal take on this. Others might disagree which is fair enough


----------



## Lorcan Ward

3 things can happen here:

Build times speed up
Builds times stay the same
Build times slow down even more

For anyone at the back of queue it’s still going to take time even if things dramatically change for the better. Daemoness could run into financial trouble with any of these but obviously the risk increases more with lack of output. Deposit refunds depends on Dylan and/or how much you want to chase him legally. 

We can all discuss this situation back and forth endlessly but Dylan’s update post and the remaining output for the year will be the deciding factor.


----------



## possumkiller

Maybe just ask him if he will send you the unfinished guitar with the inlay work done and you guys can just get whatever hardware and have it finished and set up at a local luthier?


----------



## narad

possumkiller said:


> Maybe just ask him if he will send you the unfinished guitar with the inlay work done and you guys can just get whatever hardware and have it finished and set up at a local luthier?



Then if one of the local guys sees that the local luthier was putting hardware on my guitar instead of building his guitar for 100% of his time, he'd go and start a thread complaining about how all these SSO guys are getting preferential treatment and the local luthier has no idea how to run thier business.


----------



## mehegama

possumkiller said:


> Maybe just ask him if he will send you the unfinished guitar with the inlay work done and you guys can just get whatever hardware and have it finished and set up at a local luthier?


that's BRJ territory.. the issue is that the delicate work on inlays and graphics is usually the last ones before just assembling and putting the hardware on, which, in theory at least, takes the least time.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> the delicate work on inlays and graphics is usually the last ones before just assembling and putting the hardware on, which, in theory at least, takes the least time.



Huh?

That's just not how this works.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Huh?
> 
> That's just not how this works.


So how does it work? he does the fretboard and inlays and then he cuts the body and the neck woods?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

I'll try and throw in a here a glimmer of reassurance: perhaps the fact that Dylan isn't responding or on FB alot or making any statements is cause he's trying to get caught up and thus a good sign (?).

Of course that is the optimistic view. No one can actually know for sure what he is doing, especially in these times given that shop visits are almost certainly not going to be permitted. Just throwing that out there too.


----------



## Blytheryn

possumkiller said:


> No no no no...
> 
> That is the completely wrong mentality. SSO made this guy famous and now it's time for SSO to destroy him.



Bro, I heard about Daemoness through Metal Hammer. SSO is such a small demographic of his customer base it’s laughable.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

mehegama said:


> So how does it work? he does the fretboard and inlays and then he cuts the body and the neck woods?



Depends on the build and his method.

Inlay is traditionally done prior to fretwork, so it's usually earlier in the process, after the board is cut down post rough in. Some do the boards prior to being glued up to the neck, so conceivably, depending on specific work flow, you could do the board prior to roughing the neck. On a bolt on, you're free to build the body and neck mostly independently, neck-through or set-neck are a different story.

You're also forgetting that finishing can take a long time, so even if the construction woodwork is done, and inlay and graphic* are done, you're going to have to get it painted before the final fitment, which can take some time depending on what all needs to be done.

After all that, you need to let it sit for at least a week, but the longer the better. Let it acclimate to being a guitar. Things are going to shift and shrink and expand. You then set it up again to make sure it's not wonky.

The idea that you just throw the artsy fartsy stuff on at or near the very end is not correct. You can easily spend as much time at that phase than the rough in from timber billet.

*This will depend on the medium.


----------



## mehegama

MaxOfMetal said:


> Depends on the build and his method.
> 
> Inlay is traditionally done prior to fretwork, so it's usually earlier in the process, after the board is cut down post rough in. Some do the boards prior to being glued up to the neck, so conceivably, depending on specific work flow, you could do the board prior to roughing the neck. On a bolt on, you're free to build the body and neck mostly independently, neck-through or set-neck are a different story.
> 
> You're also forgetting that finishing can take a long time, so even if the construction woodwork is done, and inlay and graphic* are done, you're going to have to get it painted before the final fitment, which can take some time depending on what all needs to be done.
> 
> After all that, you need to let it sit for at least a week, but the longer the better. Let it acclimate to being a guitar. Things are going to shift and shrink and expand. You then set it up again to make sure it's not wonky.
> 
> The idea that you just throw the artsy fartsy stuff on at or near the very end is not correct. You can easily spend as much time at that phase than the rough in from timber billet.
> 
> *This will really depend on the medium.


I see. I think if the work on some guitars has already started, the best bet is just to wait for him to finish them, as the problem with Dylan is not like other cases, where they never finished the guitar. He always finishes the builds (if he eventually starts working on them). The major issue is the amount of time that takes from putting the deposit till you get the final product.


----------



## Forkface

possumkiller said:


> Maybe just ask him if he will send you the unfinished guitar with the inlay work done and you guys can just get whatever hardware and have it finished and set up at a local luthier?


welp, the thread has reached black Friday level suggestions. I sincerely hope Dylan shows up soon.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Forkface said:


> welp, the thread has reached black Friday level suggestions. I sincerely hope Dylan shows up soon.



Dylan's post about the current situation is now up in the Daemoness Thread in Dealars and Group Buys section.


----------



## NickB11

FYI - I've just reached out via email and noted my overall concern with the situation. As someone with 2 deposits down, my patience is beginning to run dry on this, as it will be 48 months this fall since my initial deposit was placed and my build has yet to commence. I've asked him to provide a plan for moving forward, i.e. refund or some options for those of us who are well passed the quoted wait time. I'll follow up if I get any response, but hopefully he can come up with a solution / options for those of us that want continue or those that would like to receive a refund and move on.

EDIT - just saw the post in the Dealers section...glad to see he's offering a plan moving forward.


----------



## mehegama

i m really happy to see that he is addressing the matter seriously, admitting the delays and offering refunds to those that can't wait.


----------



## Ataraxia2320

So the order book has been closed, no more (or extremely rare) custom guitars from here on out, anyone who wants a refund has the option to do so. 

Sounds like the best possible outcome to me. Fair play.


----------



## Blytheryn

Good on Dylz. I hope that everyone here can find a solution to their situation.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Just read the post. I've been waiting for 5 years. Only to have to make another decision. Truthfully, the cost of paying 5k USD for a guitar, albeit custom spec'ed to a tee and with an artistic concept of my choosing, is just a little too much for this guy to really shell out for an axe. Not necessarily that I can't but is it really worth it? I mean, I don't even really know how the Daemoness Cimmerian even feels in the hands. I've heard it described as 'other worldy' but quite frankly I've come to realize that the feel and sound of guitars like Jackson and Ibanez are more than satisfying for my metal playing needs. There's a part of me that feels its time to just pick up that Caparison I always wanted instead.

Change my mind.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Just read the post. I've been waiting for 5 years. Only to have to make another decision. Truthfully, the cost of paying 5k USD for a guitar, albeit custom spec'ed to a tee and with an artistic concept of my choosing, is just a little too much for this guy to really shell out for an axe. Not necessarily that I can't but is it really worth it? I mean, I don't even really know how the Daemoness Cimmerian even feels in the hands. I've heard it described as 'other worldy' but quite frankly I've come to realize that the feel and sound of guitars like Jackson and Ibanez are more than satisfying for my metal playing needs. There's a part of me that feels its time to just pick up that Caparison I always wanted instead.
> 
> Change my mind.



Because you can buy a Caparison any day of the year. On the other hand, if you didn’t want to pay 5k for a guitar, you should have never gotten on the wait list. 

Some people like blinged out shit, some people play Epi Les Paul Specials and think that’s fine.


----------



## jco5055

I wonder how long it will take him to finish the remaining customs? I'd definitely be interested in trying out a stock build when those eventually materialize.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> Because you can buy a Caparison any day of the year. On the other hand, if you didn’t want to pay 5k for a guitar, you should have never gotten on the wait list.
> 
> Some people like blinged out shit, some people play Epi Les Paul Specials and think that’s fine.



Well, keep in mind I was quoted differently for a price back in 2015. Not 5k. I felt given what I've seen from Dylan's shop and based on what I wanted, the price of about 3700 USD would have been fine. Then things changed...

Honestly, its not the bling that is the most important factor here per se. Rather, its more like an icing on the cake. I am way more concerned these days of how it would sound and feel. The sound clips of what Dylan provided in the past were fine as well as other players on youtube. But then how does it all translate to your actual hands? And then of course the feel with the ergonomics and all that. THAT is where I'm at these days. I don't necessarily need my concept design anymore, especially if its gonna cost me a total of 5k when its all said and done in addition to not knowing how its exactly going to all translate when I start playing it.

Also, wants, desires, and attitudes can change ALOT in 5 years in regards to what a player values.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> Just read the post. I've been waiting for 5 years. Only to have to make another decision. Truthfully, the cost of paying 5k USD for a guitar, albeit custom spec'ed to a tee and with an artistic concept of my choosing, is just a little too much for this guy to really shell out for an axe. Not necessarily that I can't but is it really worth it? I mean, I don't even really know how the Daemoness Cimmerian even feels in the hands. I've heard it described as 'other worldy' but quite frankly I've come to realize that the feel and sound of guitars like Jackson and Ibanez are more than satisfying for my metal playing needs. There's a part of me that feels its time to just pick up that Caparison I always wanted instead.
> 
> Change my mind.


You will need to talk to him to confirm, but my guess is that all those guys with downpayments put on 2016 and had their woods bought will most likely be in the next batch, so an extra year of wait or two for you but you are the closest to ever getting a Daemoness so maybe you should think about. For all the rest of us that put money later, I think refund is the only way unless people are ok to wait 3-4 years more.

Now I m not sure how the guitar plays (I ve heard mixed reviews in terms of playability). Given the money asked is much more the original quote, it's up to your patience if you really want to go all the way..


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Well, keep in mind I was quoted differently for a price back in 2015. Not 5k. I felt given what I've seen from Dylan's shop and based on what I wanted, the price of about 3700 USD would have been fine. Then things changed...
> 
> Honestly, its not the bling that is the most important factor here per se. Rather, its more like an icing on the cake. I am way more concerned these days of how it would sound and feel. The sound clips of what Dylan provided in the past were fine as well as other players on youtube. But then how does it all translate to your actual hands? And then of course the feel with the ergonomics and all that. THAT is where I'm at these days. I don't necessarily need my concept design anymore, especially if its gonna cost me a total of 5k when its all said and done in addition to not knowing how its exactly going to all translate when I start playing it.



Understandable. I don’t have a Cimmerian, but my Chronicler plays and feels extremely good. I’m not super into ergonomics or feel, because I could simply play anything and not really care, but it’s fast, shreddy and comfortable while keeping a Les Paul’s character.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> You will need to talk to him to confirm, but my guess is that all those guys with downpayments put on 2016 and had their woods bought will most likely be in the next batch, so an extra year of wait or two for you but you are the closest to ever getting a Daemoness so maybe you should think about. For all the rest of us that put money later, I think refund is the only way unless people are ok to wait 3-4 years more.
> 
> Now I m not sure how the guitar plays (I ve heard mixed reviews in terms of playability). Given the money asked is much more the original quote, it's up to your patience if you really want to go all the way..



That's the thing: just HOW much longer is it going to take exactly? The times are a bit precarious these days after all. Also, compound that with the pricing changes and well, you see where I am at. 

What would save the day so to speak is trying one out in hand.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Also, wants, desires, and attitudes can change ALOT in 5 years in regards to what a player values.



You can change it all up until the day your build starts.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> That's the thing: just HOW much longer is it going to take exactly? The times are a bit precarious these days after all. Also, compound that with the pricing changes and well, you see where I am at.
> 
> What would save the day so to speak is trying one out in hand.


i know it must be frustrating. So if i was in your shoes, given that you are in the list since 2015, i would have waited as there are sunk costs involved and also a refund would be more difficult legally. The price hike is also vital though. I don' know it s a difficult decision


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> You can change it all up until the day your build starts.



True, and believe me it changed alot from the get go. Went from a V to a Cimmerian after about 2 years waiting. Now the custom art idea has changed.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> True, and believe me it changed alot from the get go. Went from a V to a Cimmerian after about 2 years waiting. Now the custom art idea has changed.



I can relate. I went from a Valkenbyrd to a Hadian to an Ironbird. I mean given the wait time it’s good you didn’t get started on something you’d didn’t really want.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> i know it must be frustrating. So if i was in your shoes, given that you are in the list since 2015, i would have waited as there are sunk costs involved and also a refund would be more difficult legally. The price hike is also vital though. I don' know it s a difficult decision



Exactly. I was denied refund before and because of that went straight on with it and even paid the requested deposit for timber last year. Barnes said something like the build would begin right after that timber payment but I am unsure till this day if it really ever did.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> I can relate. I went from a Valkenbyrd to a Hadian to an Ironbird. I mean given the wait time it’s good you didn’t get started on something you’d didn’t really want.



Right. I only realize now that I am pretty much a super strat player. The fickle nature of guitar buying and tastes...


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> Just read the post. I've been waiting for 5 years. Only to have to make another decision. Truthfully, the cost of paying 5k USD for a guitar, albeit custom spec'ed to a tee and with an artistic concept of my choosing, is just a little too much for this guy to really shell out for an axe. Not necessarily that I can't but is it really worth it? I mean, I don't even really know how the Daemoness Cimmerian even feels in the hands. I've heard it described as 'other worldy' but quite frankly I've come to realize that the feel and sound of guitars like Jackson and Ibanez are more than satisfying for my metal playing needs. There's a part of me that feels its time to just pick up that Caparison I always wanted instead.
> 
> Change my mind.



You don't buy a Daemoness for the "otherworldly" feel. You buy it for the looks, uniqueness and art. maybe some fancy specs that you like.
As a matter of fact, you don't buy a guitar, let's say roughly over ~2k new (or ~1/1.5k used) if you are only interested in how it plays and even how it sounds. For those budgets, rare exceptions aside, you should be able get a guitar that feels however you want, dialed in by a competent luthier to your liking (if needed and you can't do it yourself) in pretty much any style or category. As long as you have good base woods and construction, good frets, good electronics and hardware, you'll be good. An ESP Custom Shop or PRS Private Stock is not going to play or sound "better" in a blind test.
Yet people buy expensive guitars everyday so it's just a matter of whether or not you value the extras enough for the $$.
There are maybe some exceptions that can feel different- super boutique stuff, or something like a Parker, or even an Aristides arguably. But those are not the types of guitar Daemoness (or ESP Custom / PRS PS / Jackson CS etc either for that matter) produces.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> I can relate. I went from a Valkenbyrd to a Hadian to an Ironbird. I mean given the wait time it’s good you didn’t get started on something you’d didn’t really want.


But that's the issue. I also started with an extravaganza in mind, in the style of Dylan, which i realise now it would have been a monstrosity. And what i want now, can probably be offered (and probably done even bettter) by many known shops around. If Dylan quoted times were accurate, i would have waited but seems it s not meant to happen.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Right. I only realize now that I am pretty much a super strat player. The fickle nature of guitar buying and tastes...



If it’s any help at all, I did play the “Possession Technique” Cimmerian at Dylan’s back in 2018 and it blew my ESP Horizon out of the water in every way. Best neck I’ve ever touched.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mbardu said:


> You don't buy a Daemoness for the "otherworldly" feel. You buy it for the looks, uniqueness and art. maybe some fancy specs that you like.
> As a matter of fact, you don't buy a guitar, let's say roughly over ~2k new (or ~1/1.5k used) if you are only interested in how it plays and even how it sounds. For those budgets, rare exceptions aside, you should be able get a guitar that feels however you want, dialed in by a competent luthier to your liking (if you can't do it yourself) in pretty much any style or category. As long as you have good base woods and construction, good frets, good electronics and hardware, you'll be good.
> Yet people buy more expensive guitars than that everyday so it's just a matter of whether or not you value the extras.




Interesting perspective. So the 3000 USD extra is strictly for looks then.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> But that's the issue. I also started with an extravaganza in mind, in the style of Dylan, which i realise now it would have been a monstrosity. And what i want now, can probably be offered (and probably done even bettter) by many known shops around. If Dylan quoted times were accurate, i would have waited but seems it s not meant to happen.



Feels like you’re set on getting a refund. Hope you get it and have fun with another guitar brand.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> If it’s any help at all, I did play the “Possession Technique” Cimmerian at Dylan’s back in 2018 and it blew my ESP Horizon out of the water in every way. Best neck I’ve ever touched.



Ok, that's giving me something to work with in the 'pro' category other than 'it just looks cool'.


----------



## Mathemagician

Am I understanding that initial quoted prices from years ago with deposits are being told the “final” price will have increased? 

No way in hell would I cough up for a changed price. Purely personal for something with this kind of timetable - once we agree on a final price at XYZ date, i treat people like contractors 25% up front, 25% when half done 50% at completion. 

A (much cheaper) Kiesel with an 8-9 month quote I can do 50/50. Not so with years of my life where that money could have been working for me any number of ways. Just $0.02.


----------



## mehegama

Mathemagician said:


> Am I understanding that initial quoted prices from years ago with deposits are being told the “final” price will have increased?
> 
> No way in hell would I cough up for a changed price. Purely personal for something with this kind of timetable - once we agree on a final price at XYZ date, i treat people like contractors 25% up front, 25% when half done 50% at completion.
> 
> A (much cheaper) Kiesel with an 8-9 month quote I can do 50/50. Not so with years of my life where that money could have been working for me any number of ways. Just $0.02.


On this both Carilion and Skervesen do honor the quoted prices regardless of market value fluctuations. Also do not forget Daemoness quote TBD for the art, which can blow the final price significantly.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

If anyone comes out here and tells me a Daemoness plays and sounds just like a Keisel then I am definitely out. Problem solved.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> If anyone comes out here and tells me a Daemoness plays and sounds just like a Keisel then I am definitely out. Problem solved.



You didn’t look this up before you put down a deposit?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> You didn’t look this up before you put down a deposit?



Oh, I please don't tell me its true....


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Feels like you’re set on getting a refund. Hope you get it and have fun with another guitar brand.


Maybe I ll get one of the stock ones he ll be making in the far future!


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Oh, I please don't tell me its true....



I’ve never played a Kiesel. Everything about them disgusts me.

I’ll clarify - You’re telling me you put down a deposit on an instrument without getting any idea of the quality level of the instrument you’d be receiving?


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> If anyone comes out here and tells me a Daemoness plays and sounds just like a Keisel then I am definitely out. Problem solved.



Realistically, it should.
Setup well, specs being equal it should play like a well setup Kiesel, or well setup E-II, or a well setup Suhr, or other good quality guitars made of wood. Even a used Prestige for that matter . At least as far as I'm aware they're made of wood, not unobtainium and they use OEM hardware and electronics.
In fact the fact that they are handmade, not CNC, is something in favor of the other brands with regards to consistency.

But I bet you'll always have die hard fans who will tell you that they have some "magic" that make them feel and sound better. And sometimes the fact that it's a handmade piece of art that took 5 years to be made by one artist is enough to make you _feel _that way about the guitar subjectively. Whether or not you buy into that is entirely up to you though.


----------



## Mathemagician

mehegama said:


> Also do not forget Daemoness quote TBD for the art, which can blow the final price significantly.



Ah this is a fair point. Assuming it’s a sort of hourly rate attached to the pricing which is one of many fair ways of doing it then yeah this could account for it. If someone is told “TBD” up front then wow, that’s faith.

His post reads relatively fair regarding his upcoming process changes etc. Interesting to see how this plays out when he changes gears in a few years.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> I’ve never played a Kiesel. Everything about them disgusts me.



I have a brutal analogy of Keisel that I will do my best to refrain from espousing here.



Blytheryn said:


> I’ll clarify - You’re telling me you put down a deposit on an instrument without getting any idea of the quality level of the instrument you’d be receiving?



Well, again that partly goes back to the pricing thing but also in part the magic of Dylan's sell job skills. For 3700 USD I was ready to shell out for the Daemoness franchise hearing of impeccable workmanship and that its made by a guy who knows, lives, and feels metal.

Flash forward 5 years, and given the price hike circumstance and all this other stuff, well, I will say again: change my mind.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mbardu said:


> Realistically, it should.
> Setup well, specs being equal it should play like a well setup Kiesel, or well setup E-II, or a well setup Suhr, or other good quality guitars made of wood. Even a used Prestige for that matter . At least as far as I'm aware they're made of wood, not unobtainium and they use OEM hardware and electronics.
> In fact the fact that they are handmade, not CNC, is something in favor of the other brands with regards to consistency.
> 
> But I bet you'll always have die hard fans who will tell you that they have some "magic" that make them feel and sound better. And sometimes the fact that it's a handmade piece of art that took 5 years to be made by one artist is enough to make you _feel _that way about the guitar subjectively. Whether or not you buy into that is entirely up to you though.



As I've said in my prior post above, alot had to do with the sell job skills behind the brand. Regarding though CNC vs. hand made I've seen it argued both ways. I'd actually be very interested in trying something out that wasn't CNC.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> I have a brutal analogy of Keisel that I will do my best to refrain from espousing here.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, again that partly goes back to the pricing thing but also in part the magic of Dylan's sell job skills. For 3700 USD I was ready to shell out for the Daemoness franchise hearing of impeccable workmanship and that its made by a guy who knows, lives, and feels metal.
> 
> Flash forward 5 years, and given the price hike circumstance and all this other stuff, well, I will say again: change my mind.


You need to discuss it with him. If he can guarantee you to be one of the first to get the guitar and renegotiate the pricing, then maybe you need to stay. Otherwise, I don't have much to say to persuade you to stay.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> You need to discuss it with him. If he can guarantee you to be one of the first to get the guitar and renegotiate the pricing, then maybe you need to stay. Otherwise, I don't have much to say to persuade you to stay.



No worries m8 and that's already in the works. Time will tell now as they say.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I played my buddy's Ghost Ship V, and I've ordered Flagship Kiesels that Jeff worked on personally.

The Daemoness definitely felt better to me, even though V's and 7's aren't my preference. The build itself was objectively superior to my reference of 3 K Series instruments that Jeff worked on himself. The Daemoness was more intricate and refined in every place that you looked. Fretboard edge was perfectly rolled off with pretty nice rounded fret ends. The binding (even having binding and doing it well is an indicator of build polish) is clean around every sharp edge of the guitar wrapped and seated well. The satin neck was also taped off really well to follow the contours as it met the body and transitioned pretty cleanly. The poly gloss was pretty nice too, very slick but not as slick as an EBMM which for me have the slickest gloss finishes of the instruments I've owned.

And if you've played a Kiesel with an oiled neck to gloss body you've definitely felt that "lip" into the gloss that isn't a real nuisance but smoothing that out so it transitions seamlessly would have been a nice touch. Kiesels fretboard edges were not shaped at all back then, they've recently started incorporating the 90 degree - 45 degree - 0 degree fretboard edge. But the Daemoness felt completely rounded at the edge.

Build wise the Daemoness is great, but if you ordered it without considering your favorite neck shapes, radius, fret size, and setup preferences. You should probably set some time to think of those before you talk to Dylan.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Jonathan20022 said:


> I played my buddy's Ghost Ship V, and I've ordered Flagship Kiesels that Jeff worked on personally.
> 
> The Daemoness definitely felt better to me, even though V's and 7's aren't my preference. The build itself was objectively superior to my reference of 3 K Series instruments that Jeff worked on himself. The Daemoness was more intricate and refined in every place that you looked. Fretboard edge was perfectly rolled off with pretty nice rounded fret ends. The binding (even having binding and doing it well is an indicator of build polish) is clean around every sharp edge of the guitar wrapped and seated well. The satin neck was also taped off really well to follow the contours as it met the body and transitioned pretty cleanly. The poly gloss was pretty nice too, very slick but not as slick as an EBMM which for me have the slickest gloss finishes of the instruments I've owned.
> 
> And if you've played a Kiesel with an oiled neck to gloss body you've definitely felt that "lip" into the gloss that isn't a real nuisance but smoothing that out so it transitions seamlessly would have been a nice touch. Kiesels fretboard edges were not shaped at all back then, they've recently started incorporating the 90 degree - 45 degree - 0 degree fretboard edge. But the Daemoness felt completely rounded at the edge.
> 
> Build wise the Daemoness is great, but if you ordered it without considering your favorite neck shapes, radius, fret size, and setup preferences. You should probably set some time to think of those before you talk to Dylan.



Very good review. Actually quite helpful. Yes I have actually discussed my preferred necks with Daemoness a while back but I hear the Shredator is also quite satisfying if you're into Ibanez. Which I am. That's great to hear though that there are all those little refinements, definitely the type of feedback and comparison I was looking for instead of 'its all about looks'.


----------



## Jonathan20022

His guitar had the D shaped profile, which also wasn't my preference. Not sure if it's the shredator profile, but I'd get a c shaped .800 - .880 when my build comes around.


----------



## xzacx

Bettershredthandead said:


> If anyone comes out here and tells me a Daemoness plays and sounds just like a Keisel then I am definitely out. Problem solved.



If both guitars were set up by the same person, there's no real reason to think they wouldn't play similarly. And every guitar sounds different, so either one could sound better than the other (or very similar), but that's obviously very subjective. I don't think they'll FEEL the same, though I don't have any experience specifically with Daemoness. I've played lots of guitars I thought felt better and more refined than Kiesels though, and there's obviously a lot more customization available with Daemoness.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

xzacx said:


> If both guitars were set up by the same person, there's no real reason to think they wouldn't play similarly.



I should clarify here that when I say 'feel' I also factor in body shape and weight plus whether or not it has all the right contours and what not etc. etc. I've discussed the subject of feel with coworkers who were decent techs at the guitar in their spare time. While they had said pretty much the same thing that you did, 'if the setup is good, then it almost doesn't really matter', I have also had them come back to me and say, 'well yeah the radius of the neck does make a difference in addition to all the rest etc. etc.'. Which it all does. Clearly. 'Feel' isn't strictly about action.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Jonathan20022 said:


> His guitar had the D shaped profile, which also wasn't my preference. Not sure if it's the shredator profile, but I'd get a c shaped .800 - .880 when my build comes around.



Yeah, based on what I discussed with other guys, the shredator sounds like it would be the path forward for me. If I stay on the path that is...


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> I should clarify here that when I say 'feel' I also factor in body shape and weight plus whether or not it has all the right contours and what not etc. etc. I've discussed the subject of feel with coworkers who were decent techs at the guitar in their spare time. While they had said pretty much the same thing that you did, 'if the setup is good, then it almost doesn't really matter', I have also had them come back to me and say, 'well yeah the radius of the neck does make a difference in addition to all the rest etc. etc.'. Which it does. Clearly.



That's why I mentioned "specs being equal" on the previous page.
A 10-pound 27 inch scale guitar with flat radius will obviously feel different compared to a lightweight short scale guitar with round radius.
But specs being equal, there comes a level of quality beyond which I wouldn't expect any real difference.

Disclaimer: the last "boutique" or handmade instruments I owned were quite a few years ago. But I don't believe the trade has changed that much, especially the way Dylan describes his work. At least guitar-construction-wise, obviously his art is unique.

But since then, I have consistently seen CNC-d instruments be more consistent and better playing than handmade stuff. A shame for the "boutique" and handmade aspects, but _it is what it is (_that's what we say know, isn't it _)._ Not to say everything CNC'ed is good. It's only a raw outline and you still need to build and finish the guitar right. But in the realm we're talking about? 1/2k or more from reputable brands? There are tons of options available today with great quality.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mbardu said:


> But specs being equal, there comes a level of quality beyond which I wouldn't expect any real difference.



I'm not here to debate this nor do I remotely feel like it. All I care to say here, is that opinions would vary wildly on this matter M8.

Regards, your pal, 'Shred.


----------



## mbardu

Bettershredthandead said:


> I'm not here to debate this nor do I remotely feel like it. All I care to say here, is that opinions would vary wildly on this matter M8.
> 
> Regards, your pal, 'Shred.



That was more...general information based on your own comments and questions rather than any debate... No reason to get on the defensive.

No worries though. I thought you asked questions and were interested in answers. If not then my bad, I must have misread ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sincerely though, have fun speccing out your build and hopefully it ends up being all you wish for!


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

mehegama said:


> all those guys with downpayments put on 2016 and had their woods bought will most likely be in the next batch



I was a late 2016 deposit and I've never had any communication about woods or other components. As far as I'm aware I'm at the same point as someone who could've dropped a deposit yesterday (figuratively speaking).


----------



## mehegama

Crash Dandicoot said:


> I was a late 2016 deposit and I've never had any communication about woods or other components. As far as I'm aware I'm at the same point as someone who could've dropped a deposit yesterday (figuratively speaking).


That s just terrible.. seems like more and more people are coming up woth deposits from Almost 5 years ago and no communication whatsoever (which obviously means the covid excuse does not weigh much). I don’t know what to say.. i d not stay in a situation like that for sure if there are no sunk costs. Unless he guarantees you that you ll get your guitar in a few months time..


----------



## narad

You know it's called "the sunk cost fallacy" in this context...


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> You know it's called "the sunk cost fallacy" in this context...


it s the lost time and the opportunity cost that some people weight a lot. But you are right. In a situation like that the best option is to run


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mbardu said:


> That was more...general information based...



Indeed and no harm no foul. And I'm not necessarily getting defensive here although I am more concerned with getting actual first hand account of the Daemoness guitar playing experience at this point. I felt we were about to go in a very general direction here and thus would ultimately deviate from the info I'm really trying to get here.



mbardu said:


> Sincerely though, have fun speccing out your build and hopefully it ends up being all you wish for!



If I go forward. Like I said time will tell there. But thanks M8 and I hope I get some reply Dylan soon and then we'll take it from there.


----------



## Scud7011

Mathemagician said:


> Ah this is a fair point. Assuming it’s a sort of hourly rate attached to the pricing which is one of many fair ways of doing it then yeah this could account for it. If someone is told “TBD” up front then wow, that’s faith.


Barnes wanted me to specify a budget for my body art prior to the built starting, which would then determine how crazy Dylan would go on my body art. This obviously depends on how accurate Dylan is when it comes to estimating how long doing certain stuff takes, but I doubt he would charge over your specified budget if he happened to take longer to do the art then he originally thought.



Crash Dandicoot said:


> I was a late 2016 deposit and I've never had any communication about woods or other components. As far as I'm aware I'm at the same point as someone who could've dropped a deposit yesterday (figuratively speaking).


When in 2016? Dylan's order book opened on November 1st, and I'm fairly certain he filled out more than an entire batch worth of orders within a few days of that. There were a ton of people on this site alone that mentioned back then that they had put deposits down within a few days of that. It sounds like you missed the cut and would be in the next batch after the initial one.


----------



## JP Universe

Couple hours reading....Custom guitars? Nothings changed. I been out of the game for years 

It is what it is. Seriously, Its just so risky that 90% of the time it goes wrong and at best you get something in 3 years that is ok. Anyone outside of our bubble would think it’s ridiculous.

Even big custom guitar companies can’t be excused. I sold a Jackson custom guitar spot once... ‘Basic specs’ I seen the new owner get his guitar and be dissapointed. 

I jump into the Daemoness thread and theres a big hype post that was comical but 30 pages here was the opposite end of the spectrum. 

I think the new mantra needs to be ‘spend 10k plus’ for custom. Apologies to a whole bunch of custom guitar guys but it is what it is. 

BRJ - I lost money
Skervesen - decent instrument i flipped for a prs and cash
Siggery - I sold my spot...  new owner
Jackson - sold my spot. Faults on new owners guitar  
Thorn - spotless (now with Fender)
Thorn - Spotless (now with Fender) 
Vik - organised the run and sold spot later.  
ET guitars - 4 years for a neck That was flawed
Ormsby - sold guitar for original price after a couple months. Flaws (which i clearly advised on) its worth less thst half the price

Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom


----------



## Vyn

JP Universe said:


> Couple hours reading....Custom guitars? Nothings changed. I been out of the game for years
> 
> It is what it is. Seriously, Its just so risky that 90% of the time it goes wrong and at best you get something in 3 years that is ok. Anyone outside of our bubble would think it’s ridiculous.
> 
> Even big custom guitar companies can’t be excused. I sold a Jackson custom guitar spot once... ‘Basic specs’ I seen the new owner get his guitar and be dissapointed.
> 
> I jump into the Daemoness thread and theres a big hype post that was comical but 30 pages here was the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 
> I think the new mantra needs to be ‘spend 10k plus’ for custom. Apologies to a whole bunch of custom guitar guys but it is what it is.
> 
> BRJ - I lost money
> Skervesen - decent instrument i flipped for a prs and cash
> Siggery - I sold my spot...  new owner
> Jackson - sold my spot. Faults on new owners guitar
> Thorn - spotless (now with Fender)
> Thorn - Spotless (now with Fender)
> Vik - organised the run and sold spot later.
> ET guitars - 4 years for a neck That was flawed
> Ormsby - sold guitar for original price after a couple months. Flaws (which i clearly advised on) its worth less thst half the price
> 
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom



Not going to lie, the last few weeks of threads here on SSO have had me a little worried about my own custom orders haha.


----------



## narad

JP Universe said:


> BRJ - I lost money
> Skervesen - decent instrument i flipped for a prs and cash
> Siggery - I sold my spot...  new owner
> Jackson - sold my spot. Faults on new owners guitar
> Thorn - spotless (now with Fender)
> Thorn - Spotless (now with Fender)
> Vik - organised the run and sold spot later.
> ET guitars - 4 years for a neck That was flawed
> Ormsby - sold guitar for original price after a couple months. Flaws (which i clearly advised on) its worth less thst half the price
> 
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom



Honestly I think the lesson here is just to not go with any builder you put a deposit down with! Though the Thorns turned out well presumably...no one has a bad thing to say about Ron or his guitars.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> That s just terrible.. seems like more and more people are coming up woth deposits from Almost 5 years ago and no communication whatsoever (which obviously means the covid excuse does not weigh much). I don’t know what to say.. i d not stay in a situation like that for sure if there are no sunk costs. Unless he guarantees you that you ll get your guitar in a few months time..


August 2020 minus late 2016 is less than 4 years.


----------



## mehegama

JP Universe said:


> Couple hours reading....Custom guitars? Nothings changed. I been out of the game for years
> 
> It is what it is. Seriously, Its just so risky that 90% of the time it goes wrong and at best you get something in 3 years that is ok. Anyone outside of our bubble would think it’s ridiculous.
> 
> Even big custom guitar companies can’t be excused. I sold a Jackson custom guitar spot once... ‘Basic specs’ I seen the new owner get his guitar and be dissapointed.
> 
> I jump into the Daemoness thread and theres a big hype post that was comical but 30 pages here was the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 
> I think the new mantra needs to be ‘spend 10k plus’ for custom. Apologies to a whole bunch of custom guitar guys but it is what it is.
> 
> BRJ - I lost money
> Skervesen - decent instrument i flipped for a prs and cash
> Siggery - I sold my spot...  new owner
> Jackson - sold my spot. Faults on new owners guitar
> Thorn - spotless (now with Fender)
> Thorn - Spotless (now with Fender)
> Vik - organised the run and sold spot later.
> ET guitars - 4 years for a neck That was flawed
> Ormsby - sold guitar for original price after a couple months. Flaws (which i clearly advised on) its worth less thst half the price
> 
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom


It is usually the one man shops that create this type of frustrations (VIK, BRJ, Decibel, Daemoness etc).
I mean shops like Skervesen and Ormsby, especially the latest years, deliver very high quality instruments (with some bad ones here and there) and offer very nice custom inlays as well (maybe not as artistic as Dylan's but still pretty impressive). And the best thing is that you have a very good communication and they stay in their timelines.
After all this shitstorm, I think Dylan should rebrand as a concept shop that paint/refinishes existing guitars (something like Hutchison) and offer crazy inlays. In that way he ll be focusing on the art, he ll be happier and we ll all get the Soloists, Horizons, RGs that we always wanted. Because to be honest that's what most people want. A copy of an existing known guitar but with Dylan's touch.


----------



## mehegama

StevenC said:


> August 2020 minus late 2016 is less than 4 years.


I meant to write almost 4 years, sorry. That s still a far cry form the 30 months, which by the way in 2016 it was like 24.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> It is usually the one man shops that create this type of frustrations (VIK, BRJ, Decibel, Daemoness etc).
> I mean shops like Skervesen and Ormsby, especially the latest years, deliver very high quality instruments (with some bad ones here and there) and offer very nice custom inlays as well (maybe not as artistic as Dylan's but still pretty impressive). And the best thing is that you have a very good communication and they stay in their timelines.
> After all this shitstorm, I think Dylan should rebrand as a concept shop that paint/refinishes existing guitars (something like Hutchison) and offer crazy inlays. In that way he ll be focusing on the art, he ll be happier and we ll all get the Soloists, Horizons, RGs that we always wanted. Because to be honest that's what most people want. A copy of an existing known guitar but with Dylan's touch.



Nah. People who want a Daemoness want a Daemoness. Not an off the shelf ESP or Ibanez. They could just buy one and be done with it. 

People who really want a Daemoness can live with the wait, know what they’re getting into, and don’t cry when their emails don’t get answered. Because they know/trust the end product to be worth it. If that’s not for you, luckily enough almost everything else should be.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Nah. People who want a Daemoness want a Daemoness. Not an off the shelf ESP or Ibanez. They could just buy one and be done with it.
> 
> People who really want a Daemoness can live with the wait, know what they’re getting into, and don’t cry when their emails don’t get answered. Because they know/trust the end product to be worth it. If that’s not for you, luckily enough almost everything else should be.


fair enough but i think if he does not fix these issues, he will not be staying around for long. Let's see how many of the existing people would go for a refund, that would be a good indicator of how many really don't care about the wait. 
I don't think it is a good thing to normalize this type of business practices as if it is something normal in the custom guitar business. Those shops that did that are out of business or run with customers'money. 
And as @mbardu said, if he needs 5 years for a guitar, fine! Just say it is going to be 5 years so everyone has their expectations set correctly.
I think if he rebrands to a concept shop, he ll be more profitable and he ll be closer to his artistic love which is painting and doing the crazy inlays.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> fair enough but i think if he does not fix these issues, he will not be staying around for long. Let's see how many of the existing people would go for a refund, that would be a good indicator of how many really don't care about the wait.
> I don't think it is a good thing to normalize this type of business practices as if it is something normal in the custom guitar business. Those shops that did that are out of business or run with customers'money.
> And as @mbardu said, if he needs 5 years for a guitar, fine! Just say it is going to be 5 years so everyone has their expectations set correctly.
> I think if he rebrands to a concept shop, he ll be more profitable and he ll be closer to his artistic love which is painting and doing the crazy inlays.



Well according to his statement he’s going to work through the rest of the guitars, and close the custom shop almost entirely. The reason he said he can’t give pinpoint accurate estimates is because he can’t estimate how long a guitar will take based on the complexity of the builds.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Blytheryn said:


> Nah. People who want a Daemoness want a Daemoness. Not an off the shelf ESP or Ibanez. They could just buy one and be done with it.
> 
> People who really want a Daemoness can live with the wait, know what they’re getting into, and don’t cry when their emails don’t get answered. Because they know/trust the end product to be worth it. If that’s not for you, luckily enough almost everything else should be.


don't try to justify shitty communication (or lack of any communication), that's just horrible business practice. Tom Waghorn and other reputable custom builders don't do that ime. When I send an email to someone like Tom or Knightro I get an reply in at most, a day or two. Even when Barnes was there communication wasn't as good as it should have been imo.


----------



## Blytheryn

KnightBrolaire said:


> don't try to justify shitty communication (or lack of any communication), that's just horrible business practice. Tom Waghorn and other reputable custom builders don't do that ime. When I send an email to someone like Tom or Knightro I get an reply in at most, a day or two. Even when Barnes was there communication wasn't as good as it should have been imo.




I’m not. Sure it could be a lot better, I’ve thought that myself a few times. But at the end of the day the things I emailed him about wouldn’t even matter for years down the line, so at the end of the day who cares?


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> Well according to his statement he’s going to work through the rest of the guitars, and close the custom shop almost entirely. The reason he said he can’t give pinpoint accurate estimates is because he can’t estimate how long a guitar will take based on the complexity of the builds.


I understand that, but if he cannot estimate hiw much time he needs for his own creations, then I don’t think people would be too confident to put money on him. That’s why I predict a tsunami of refund requests. Unfortunately people lost trust on him. So in the end only the true hardcore fans will stay and those invested deeply in money and time (those on this next batch). And I don’t think these are enough to keep him going like this. That’s my personal opinion on this


----------



## diagrammatiks

Bettershredthandead said:


> I'm not here to debate this nor do I remotely feel like it. All I care to say here, is that opinions would vary wildly on this matter M8.
> 
> Regards, your pal, 'Shred.



don't poke mbardu. he'll attack with you with a 10,000 word essay. 



JP Universe said:


> Couple hours reading....Custom guitars? Nothings changed. I been out of the game for years
> 
> It is what it is. Seriously, Its just so risky that 90% of the time it goes wrong and at best you get something in 3 years that is ok. Anyone outside of our bubble would think it’s ridiculous.
> 
> Even big custom guitar companies can’t be excused. I sold a Jackson custom guitar spot once... ‘Basic specs’ I seen the new owner get his guitar and be dissapointed.
> 
> I jump into the Daemoness thread and theres a big hype post that was comical but 30 pages here was the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 
> I think the new mantra needs to be ‘spend 10k plus’ for custom. Apologies to a whole bunch of custom guitar guys but it is what it is.
> 
> BRJ - I lost money
> Skervesen - decent instrument i flipped for a prs and cash
> Siggery - I sold my spot...  new owner
> Jackson - sold my spot. Faults on new owners guitar
> Thorn - spotless (now with Fender)
> Thorn - Spotless (now with Fender)
> Vik - organised the run and sold spot later.
> ET guitars - 4 years for a neck That was flawed
> Ormsby - sold guitar for original price after a couple months. Flaws (which i clearly advised on) its worth less thst half the price
> 
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom



counterpoint. 

my Anderson 7 string - perfect build. awesome guitar. spec made no sense but that's on me. 

hapas - perfect guitar

Dfw - not perfect but exactly what I expected.

it's more like don't jump on the hype train at the first opportunity.


----------



## feraledge

KnightBrolaire said:


> don't try to justify shitty communication (or lack of any communication), that's just horrible business practice. Tom Waghorn and other reputable custom builders don't do that ime. When I send an email to someone like Tom or Knightro I get an reply in at most, a day or two. Even when Barnes was there communication wasn't as good as it should have been imo.


I think Dylan did a good job addressing this. He handed too much off in a way that he thought could help and it hurt him. He lost his grasp on what was happening and probably what was on the books. 
A downside of “anything can change until the wood is bought” is also that whatever was in the book is irrelevant and that would be both harder to account for and harder to track. 
He admitted he was trained with Waghorn’s attention to details on a guitar; but not in the business side and effectively parceling parts out.


----------



## feraledge

diagrammatiks said:


> it's more like don't jump on the hype train at the first opportunity.


This!! I know that a custom can be a huge risk, but it can also pay off really amazingly.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

diagrammatiks said:


> don't poke mbardu. he'll attack with you with a 10,000 word essay.



If that's considered a poke here on this forum then HA! Y'all sensitive puppy dogs here. Especially compared to where I've roamed before on internet forum land.

In the meantime, any other good experiences with playing on a buddies Daemoness? Or your own for that matter? I've heard one awesome review, let's have a few more. Tell me its keep worthy and not something that just ends up on Reverb right after buying in the name of flipping.

Shed some light in these dark days.


----------



## jco5055

JP Universe said:


> Couple hours reading....Custom guitars? Nothings changed. I been out of the game for years
> 
> It is what it is. Seriously, Its just so risky that 90% of the time it goes wrong and at best you get something in 3 years that is ok. Anyone outside of our bubble would think it’s ridiculous.
> 
> Even big custom guitar companies can’t be excused. I sold a Jackson custom guitar spot once... ‘Basic specs’ I seen the new owner get his guitar and be dissapointed.
> 
> I jump into the Daemoness thread and theres a big hype post that was comical but 30 pages here was the opposite end of the spectrum.
> 
> I think the new mantra needs to be ‘spend 10k plus’ for custom. Apologies to a whole bunch of custom guitar guys but it is what it is.
> 
> BRJ - I lost money
> Skervesen - decent instrument i flipped for a prs and cash
> Siggery - I sold my spot...  new owner
> Jackson - sold my spot. Faults on new owners guitar
> Thorn - spotless (now with Fender)
> Thorn - Spotless (now with Fender)
> Vik - organised the run and sold spot later.
> ET guitars - 4 years for a neck That was flawed
> Ormsby - sold guitar for original price after a couple months. Flaws (which i clearly advised on) its worth less thst half the price
> 
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom
> Dont go custom



For me personally I think I'll stick to stock or like the Aristides/Tom Anderson/Kiesel level of semi-custom (and not add any of the truly custom extras), seeing all the horror stories and wait times of not even Daemoness but pretty much everything else, as well as a somewhat rocky experience going the custom route for an amp, has me sworn off of custom stuff forever unless I REALLY have an EXACT vision which I don't.

EDIT: Or maybe I should say more like the one man shops/luthiers is what I'd avoid compared to an actual company/shops that have multiple individuals working as a team.


----------



## narad

Bettershredthandead said:


> If that's considered a poke here on this forum then HA! Y'all sensitive puppy dogs here. Especially compared to where I've roamed before on internet forum land.
> 
> In the meantime, any other good experiences with playing on a buddies Daemoness? Or your own for that matter? I've heard one awesome review, let's have a few more. Tell me its keep worthy and not something that just ends up on Reverb right after buying in the name of flipping.



It's a guitar, that you are speccing out, to your own wants and desires. If you can't think of anything that Dylan can do for you that other luthiers can't, ditch it. It's not rocket science.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

narad said:


> It's a guitar, that you are speccing out, to your own wants and desires. If you can't think of anything that Dylan can do for you that other luthiers can't, ditch it. It's not rocket science.



Ok, pretty good criteria there. Just one question then for you then M8: is it worth 5k? Cause it sounds like that's where just about any Daemoness build is coming in at these days.


----------



## narad

Bettershredthandead said:


> Ok, pretty good criteria there. Just one question then for you then M8: is it worth 5k? Cause it sounds like that's where just about any where Daemoness build is coming in at these days.



I mean, I've had so many custom guitars and I've just sworn off this mode of thought entirely. Only you can say whether it's worth $5k to you. If you're the kind of person that would think, "Man, I like the Daemoness and it's better than my EBMM, but it's not THAT much better than my EBMM" and you care about that extra $2500, then you should probably abandon it and custom guitars in general. Nothing out there in custom land is going to blow away any of the well-made production guitars in the $2.5-3.5k range. That's just not how it works. 

Right now the specs I have in mind are worth it to me, if it comes up that high. (I would hope it's a bit less than $5k given the low GBP rate, or can you imagine if the GBP rebounds back to 1.5 USD while you're waiting?). But if Skervesens were literally $800 I wouldn't pay it. If Kiesels were $500 I still wouldn't pay it. I'm not going to play that dumbass Ormsby from a few pages back. It's just worth it to me to have a guitar that inspires me a little. I have 0 interest in these things. And the things I have a little interest in (Vigier, Aristides, Mayones) are priced close enough and are different enough that Daemoness, in my heart / gut reaction, is still worth it to me. At leats for this current idea that I've mulled on for 3 years now.

I mean, it's guitars. For every guitar out there you're going to find someone who thinks something else plays better or sounds better. Things I assume from a Daemoness: it's going to be built well, and it's going to play well, and have a great setup. Beyond that finding the value is up to how you spec it.


----------



## JP Universe

Over simplification on my part

Go custom - Anderson etc
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom
Dont go custom

9/10 you’re Fd


----------



## Bettershredthandead

narad said:


> I mean, I've had so many custom guitars and I've just sworn off this mode of thought entirely. Only you can say whether it's worth $5k to you. If you're the kind of person that would think, "Man, I like the Daemoness and it's better than my EBMM, but it's not THAT much better than my EBMM" and you care about that extra $2500, then you should probably abandon it and custom guitars in general. Nothing out there in custom land is going to blow away any of the well-made production guitars in the $2.5-3.5k range. That's just not how it works.
> 
> Right now the specs I have in mind are worth it to me, if it comes up that high. (I would hope it's a bit less than $5k given the low GBP rate, or can you imagine if the GBP rebounds back to 1.5 USD while you're waiting?). But if Skervesens were literally $800 I wouldn't pay it. If Kiesels were $500 I still wouldn't pay it. I'm not going to play that dumbass Ormsby from a few pages back. It's just worth it to me to have a guitar that inspires me a little. I have 0 interest in these things. And the things I have a little interest in (Vigier, Aristides, Mayones) are priced close enough and are different enough that Daemoness, in my heart / gut reaction, is still worth it to me. At leats for this current idea that I've mulled on for 3 years now.
> 
> I mean, it's guitars. For every guitar out there you're going to find someone who thinks something else plays better or sounds better. Things I assume from a Daemoness: it's going to be built well, and it's going to play well, and have a great setup. Beyond that finding the value is up to how you spec it.



Right on M8 and good perspective. My situation is just odd because for 3700 USD I was willing to go for it. I mean, I know I've said this a billion times already but that plus how this whole timing thing has gone down are factors that are pretty darn significant. And yes value can be very subjective. If I for one was paying 5K for a guitar, I'd expect something superior to just about everything else I've had. I know though from my last custom experience, that these routes actually don't necessarily produce something that is really all that better than an old Ibby and Jackson laying around in some shop begging to be picked up. But the Daemoness brand seemed special to me and boasted a level of artistic ability second to none. 

Ultimate problem: too much time passing plus the money thing. TBH, I was leaning a certain way from the get go after Dylan's message came out. But I wanted to really know what those who owned and or played one really felt. Nice to know the work is pretty tops according to some accounts but quite frankly given all the other circumstances well I think I know what to do now...


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I mean, I've had so many custom guitars and I've just sworn off this mode of thought entirely. Only you can say whether it's worth $5k to you. If you're the kind of person that would think, "Man, I like the Daemoness and it's better than my EBMM, but it's not THAT much better than my EBMM" and you care about that extra $2500, then you should probably abandon it and custom guitars in general. Nothing out there in custom land is going to blow away any of the well-made production guitars in the $2.5-3.5k range. That's just not how it works.
> 
> Right now the specs I have in mind are worth it to me, if it comes up that high. (I would hope it's a bit less than $5k given the low GBP rate, or can you imagine if the GBP rebounds back to 1.5 USD while you're waiting?). But if Skervesens were literally $800 I wouldn't pay it. If Kiesels were $500 I still wouldn't pay it. I'm not going to play that dumbass Ormsby from a few pages back. It's just worth it to me to have a guitar that inspires me a little. I have 0 interest in these things. And the things I have a little interest in (Vigier, Aristides, Mayones) are priced close enough and are different enough that Daemoness, in my heart / gut reaction, is still worth it to me. At leats for this current idea that I've mulled on for 3 years now.
> 
> I mean, it's guitars. For every guitar out there you're going to find someone who thinks something else plays better or sounds better. Things I assume from a Daemoness: it's going to be built well, and it's going to play well, and have a great setup. Beyond that finding the value is up to how you spec it.


In my opinion Daemoness is only worth it if want to go crazy with inlays and graphics. Other than that, it s a standard guitar. When i see a good chunk of his guitars that are very plain Janes, I m wondering why anyone do that. Can you explain why you wouldnt get a Skervesen for 800 or a kiesel for 500?


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

Scud7011 said:


> When in 2016? Dylan's order book opened on November 1st, and I'm fairly certain he filled out more than an entire batch worth of orders within a few days of that. There were a ton of people on this site alone that mentioned back then that they had put deposits down within a few days of that. It sounds like you missed the cut and would be in the next batch after the initial one.



November 18, 2016 is my confirmed date, so you may very well be correct in missing the cutoff point.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> In my opinion Daemoness is only worth it if want to go crazy with inlays and graphics. Other than that, it s a standard guitar. When i see a good chunk of his guitars that are very plain Janes, I m wondering why anyone do that.



I mean, that's your opinion, but it's obviously not the opinion of many of the customers. Some of my favorite Daemonesses were the least "themed" fancy paint guitars from his whole portfolio. The short answer as to why anyone would do that is: it's what they wanted. To me what you're doing is like walking around a food court, "You got Chinese!? The burgers at the other place are way better! And cheaper, and faster! You're crazy!"



mehegama said:


> Can you explain why you wouldnt get a Skervesen for 800 or a kiesel for 500?



Same reason I wouldn't wear an Ed Hardy shirt even if I was offered it for free. I make enough money to where I don't have to wear stupid shirts, even if they would keep me similarly warm.


----------



## Forkface

i for one very much welcome the idea of buying a Daemoness from a stock built list.
although, i somehow feel its gonna be a good 5 more years till we can do that.



narad said:


> Same reason I wouldn't wear an Ed Hardy shirt even if I was offered it for free. I make enough money to where I don't have to wear stupid shirts, even if they would keep me similarly warm.


interesting, I've made that exact comparison in my head, ed hardy to kiesel guitars. good to know im not the only one that dislikes kiesel that much


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> Same reason I wouldn't wear an Ed Hardy shirt even if I was offered it for free. I make enough money to where I don't have to wear stupid shirts, even if they would keep me similarly warm.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I mean, that's your opinion, but it's obviously not the opinion of many of the customers. Some of my favorite Daemonesses were the least "themed" fancy paint guitars from his whole portfolio. The short answer as to why anyone would do that is: it's what they wanted. To me what you're doing is like walking around a food court, "You got Chinese!? The burgers at the other place are way better! And cheaper, and faster! You're crazy!"
> 
> 
> 
> Same reason I wouldn't wear an Ed Hardy shirt even if I was offered it for free. I make enough money to where I don't have to wear stupid shirts, even if they would keep me similarly warm.


I think you extrapolate way too much on me. I wish to everyone that enjoys a Daemoness and can wait 5 years, all the best. I could not care less if anyone chooses brand A vs brand B. If you like plain wood guitars and want to pay 4-5 grand it s your decision.
Everything here is opinions, and we obviously disagree pretty much on everything about Daemoness and fair enough.

Now if you want to parallelize Kiesel with Ed Hardy, I would not agree but I know what you mean. But Skervesen why? They do produce some really nice guitars and people are generally happy. Both Mayones and Skervesen are pretty awsome semi custom shops.


----------



## xzacx

Forkface said:


> interesting, I've made that exact comparison in my head, ed hardy to kiesel guitars. good to know im not the only one that dislikes kiesel that much



I usually go with Affliction for my comparison—for that extra dose of faux-alpha energy. That said, I don't think money has anything to do with it. There are a lot of shirts that cost both less and more that don't leave you looking like...someone that wears Affliction.


----------



## frogman81

I'm pretty impressed with Dylan's statement. I don't really think he could have chosen a better way to move forward. Hopefully he follows through and it works out for him and everyone involved.



Bettershredthandead said:


> Right on M8 and good perspective. My situation is just odd because for 3700 USD I was willing to go for it. I mean, I know I've said this a billion times already but that plus how this whole timing thing has gone down are factors that are pretty darn significant. And yes value can be very subjective. If I for one was paying 5K for a guitar, I'd expect something superior to just about everything else I've had. I know though from my last custom experience, that these routes actually don't necessarily produce something that is really all that better than an old Ibby and Jackson laying around in some shop begging to be picked up. But the Daemoness brand seemed special to me and boasted a level of artistic ability second to none.
> 
> Ultimate problem: too much time passing plus the money thing. TBH, I was leaning a certain way from the get go after Dylan's message came out. But I wanted to really know what those who owned and or played one really felt. Nice to know the work is pretty tops according to some accounts but quite frankly given all the other circumstances well I think I know what to do now...



I don't think a Daemoness is for you man. I must agree with Narad that at a certain price point, guitars don't really get any technically better. I've only played 2 Daemoness guitars (my failed build and the demo guitar Cerberus) but they played very much the same as a USA Jackson that you could get used for like 1500 USD. Cerberus really reminded me of a Jackson Broderick that I almost bought one time. There isn't anything magical about them. I've been down the road of chasing "mojo" guitars that would somehow inspire my writing and playing to get to the next level and to me, looking back, it was quite childish and silly.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> Now if you want to parallelize Kiesel with Ed Hardy, I would not agree but I know what you mean. But Skervesen why? They do produce some really nice guitars and people are generally happy. Both Mayones and Skervesen are pretty awsome semi custom shops.



When it comes to guitar designing, some people have it, and some people don't:















Even when you get rid of the headstock, they still manage to mess it up:


----------



## Avedas

Those nuts are atrocious


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> When it comes to guitar designing, some people have it, and some people don't:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even when you get rid of the headstock, they still manage to mess it up:


These headstocks are awful but you can choose other more regular ones. Also this Strandberg style guitar is not necessarily ugly (i hate the strandberg headless guitars) but you picked the worst specific examples purposefully as if this is all they offer. Again that is your opionion. I hope you don't think your opinion is a universal truth. I was refering to the build quality and what they offer. Yes they offer these headstocks too, but again people ask for weird stuff. What you did is as if I was telling you that Dylan's work is this:


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> I think you extrapolate way too much on me. I wish to everyone that enjoys a Daemoness and can wait 5 years, all the best. I could not care less if anyone chooses brand A vs brand B. If you like plain wood guitars and want to pay 4-5 grand it s your decision.
> Everything here is opinions, and we obviously disagree pretty much on everything about Daeomoness and fair enough.
> 
> Now if you want to parallelize Kiesel with Ed Hardy, I would not agree but I know what you mean. But Skervesen why? They do produce some really nice guitars and people are generally happy. Both Mayones and Skervesen are pretty awsome semi custom shops.



They’re just horribly generic.


mehegama said:


> These headstocks are awful but you can choose other more regular ones. Also this Strandberg style guitar is not necessarily ugly (i hate the strandberg headless guitars) but you picked the worst specific examples purposefully as if this is all they offer. Again that is your opionion. I hope you don't think your opinion is a universal truth. I was refering to the build quality and what they offer. Yes they offer these headstocks too, but again people ask for weird stuff. What you did is as if I was telling you that Dylan's work is this:
> View attachment 83547
> View attachment 83548



What are you smoking? That’s an amazing example of Dylan’s work.


----------



## mehegama

Blytheryn said:


> They’re just horribly generic.
> 
> 
> What are you smoking? That’s an amazing example of Dylan’s work.


I can reverse the question and ask you what are you smoking? These guitars look like they were designed by a 10yo, they are absolutely horrendous.


----------



## Kovah

I agree the Atlantean shape is awful but the custom shape on the 2nd picture is awesome.


----------



## R34CH

mehegama said:


> What you did is as if I was telling you that Dylan's work is this:



Think you may have chosen a poor example to use in a discussion with @narad since I think he may have owned one of those...


----------



## mehegama

Kovah said:


> I agree the Atlantean shape is awful but the custom shape on the 2nd picture is awesome.


My point is that you can find shitty shapes and designs everywhere. I m sure the guys that ordered these guitars form Skervesen and Daemoness love them. However they are not representative of what they offer and to choose these specific ones is disingenuous. The raptors, Kallisti and the new V look just beautiful. Also Mayones does pretty much 3-4 superstat shapes. But the quality is great.


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> I can reverse the question and ask you what are you smoking? These guitars look like they were designed by a 10yo, they are absolutely horrendous.




Didn’t see the second one. Not a fan. Then again, since it’s a full custom shop people can order whatever the hell it is they want. ESP has made tons of weird shit, do I have to like it all? No.

I’ve seen more Daemonesses that I like than Skervesens or Mayones or whatever European semi custom shop that makes blackmachine ripoffs with gross burls and those awful headstocks aimed at djent boys with a pluralized noun band name. If that floats your boat, great.

At least they look metal as hell, which is more than a Skervesen or Mayones. No harm no foul, just my 0.02.


----------



## mehegama

R34CH said:


> Think you may have chosen a poor example to use in a discussion with @narad since I think he may have owned one of those...


I just choose some I found ridiculous to me. That's just my opinion. I m sure that the guys that ordered those awful (again to me) headstocks, they loved them. It is ok people to have different opinions. That's what forums are for. Now if he has one of these I did not do it on purpose!


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> These headstocks are awful but you can choose other more regular ones. Also this Strandberg style guitar is not necessarily ugly (i hate the strandberg headless guitars) but you picked the worst specific examples purposefully as if this is all they offer. Again that is your opionion. I hope you don't think your opinion is a universal truth. I was refering to the build quality and what they offer. Yes they offer these headstocks too, but again people ask for weird stuff. What you did is as if I was telling you that Dylan's work is this:
> View attachment 83547
> View attachment 83548



lol, I literally ordered the top one. But my point is that Skervesen designs are generic tweaks on existing designs. They can't even commit to how they should change the blackmachine headstock. Maybe if we change this? Maybe if we add a lump here? All terrible. 

Look at Dylan's standard headstock. Original design, right off the bat. Unique design accent. And it looks great in person the way the extra cut is actually beveled. You can argue otherwise, but I think 90% of SSO is going to be against you if you think a Skervesen headstock is a better design:






And regarding the Atlantean, I think it's still a bit of a moot comparison. The Atleantean is SUPPOSED to be over the top. It's supposed to be like a battleaxe in guitar form. It's a metal brand. You could say the same sort of stuff for the entirety of BC Rich's line up, but that's exactly what they're going for. For me the satin finish on the burl wasn't a good call because that body looked great in glossy base coat. The "veins" of the burl were awesome. This is the one that inspired me to go with it:






Similarly with the inlay, the pattern Dylan sketch out was awesome and we discussed materials and decided on bronze powder, I thought it was going to be awesome, like a metal inlaid in the wood. In reality it gets a bit lost in the frets (because it's so complicated) and the epoxy inlays don't keep quite a straight line as a solid inlay. But I want to point this out to the people that are new-ish to customs: it never works out the way you want it to. There's never been a custom I've ordered out of .. I don't know, maybe 12 at this point, that was 100% exactly what I invisioned. I basically just got old enough to not get so hung up on it. Dylan was damn close with my Cimmerian though.

Meanwhile the goal of Skevesen's headless design was presumably not intentionally trying to look like a Strandberg popcicle left out on a sunny day. That was genuinely just their best attempt at making a "nice" looking guitar. Like...damn...


----------



## Ataraxia2320

I hate all Skervesen headstocks bar the Viper (3rd one down on Narad's post). Saying that, the example given is not my bag.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

frogman81 said:


> I'm pretty impressed with Dylan's statement. I don't really think he could have chosen a better way to move forward. Hopefully he follows through and it works out for him and everyone involved.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think a Daemoness is for you man. I must agree with Narad that at a certain price point, guitars don't really get any technically better. I've only played 2 Daemoness guitars (my failed build and the demo guitar Cerberus) but they played very much the same as a USA Jackson that you could get used for like 1500 USD. Cerberus really reminded me of a Jackson Broderick that I almost bought one time. There isn't anything magical about them. I've been down the road of chasing "mojo" guitars that would somehow inspire my writing and playing to get to the next level and to me, looking back, it was quite childish and silly.



Yeah and that's what I'm figuring too from this whole boutique industry. I've been a long time Jackson and Ibanez player and I honestly think beyond them is mostly 'carving the guild' or whatever that saying is. That's not to say they are perfect brands and that's also not to say that I don't think Dylan has some impressive skills. I was ready to go 3700 USD for a Daemoness but things changed as we all know. 

(possible) Final Thoughts: I believe Dylan is an artist. I mean I can tell by not only what he offers but also his business skills. That's not meant to be a dis either, but just the way it is with artists. Ultimately, me personally, I sincerely doubt there is really anything out there that is justifiably worth 5K let alone can be justified to jump up in price considerably while waiting for a build to get done in guitardom unless you put your whole heart and soul into believing it is.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

Blytheryn said:


> whatever European semi custom shop that makes blackmachine ripoffs with gross burls and those awful headstocks aimed at djent boys with a pluralized noun band name



Hahaha that's a winning quote


----------



## Forkface

man, those shoggies are just


----------



## SamSam

Bettershredthandead said:


> But the Daemoness brand seemed special to me and boasted a level of artistic ability second to none.



That's what you are paying for. You are paying for the artistry. That's what sets them apart from your MM or Ibanez or whatever your brand of choice is.

Regarding those guitars posted (atlantean and the other one) I really cannot stand the regular orientated headstock at all, but in reverse it looks fucking amazing!

I doubt a plain daemoness will run you 5k, but please bear in mind the hours upon hours that go into planning, researching, designing and finally producing the art on his instruments. Art is rarely cheap, and dylan has established his talents fairly well.

It's a shame the custom shop will close commissions as I was hoping to order at some point (obviously I should have in 2013!)

And the subject of reviews, I've owned my cimmerian for 8+ years now. It's not going anywhere. It's the best sounding 7 I own, incredibly light and resonant and simply fun to play besides being beautiful.

With a custom shop you get a lot of options you won't get buying high end off the rack. Such as being able to specify a particularly light piece of wood for the body, wood figure characteristics, etc, that people often forget about (if you want to go into such depth of course. I know exactly what I want out of a guitar body so I tend to specify such when making a custom order. Dylan does (at least did) hand select his timber and seems to understand what makes a good piece of timber for an instrument.


----------



## narad

Forkface said:


> man, those shoggies are just



To me even the name basically says, hey, we don't care.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> lol, I literally ordered the top one. But my point is that Skervesen designs are generic tweaks on existing designs. They can't even commit to how they should change the blackmachine headstock. Maybe if we change this? Maybe if we add a lump here? All terrible.
> 
> Look at Dylan's standard headstock. Original design, right off the bat. Unique design accent. And it looks great in person the way the extra cut is actually beveled. You can argue otherwise, but I think 90% of SSO is going to be against you if you think a Skervesen headstock is a better design:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And regarding the Atlantean, I think it's still a bit of a moot comparison. The Atleantean is SUPPOSED to be over the top. It's supposed to be like a battleaxe in guitar form. It's a metal brand. You could say the same sort of stuff for the entirety of BC Rich's line up, but that's exactly what they're going for. For me the satin finish on the burl wasn't a good call because that body looked great in glossy base coat. This is the one that inspired me to go with it:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile the goal of Skevesen's headless design was presumably not intentionally trying to look like a Strandberg popcicle left out on a sunny day. That was genuinely just their best attempt at making a "nice" looking guitar. Like...damn...


I honestly picked that one by chance, nothing personal-i did not know! lol 
look my point is that it is a matter of opinion. Does Dylan make unique shapes? All of the shapes are copies of well known shapes too with same tweaks, the same that Skervesen, Mayones and ithers do. Yes Dylan's headstocks are much more beautiful than these abomination you posted, I cannot disagreeon this. I disagree with your take on Skervesen (btw I dont own a Skervesen, a Mayones or a Kiesel) Some of their superstrats are really beautiful. Not the most unique design in the world but still.


----------



## narad

SamSam said:


> And the subject of reviews, I've owned my cimmerian for 8+ years now. It's not going anywhere. It's the best sounding 7 I own, incredibly light and resonant and simply fun to play besides being beautiful.



Yours is nice because in a pinch you can transmute without drawing a circle.



mehegama said:


> I honestly picked that one by chance, nothing personal-i did not know! lol
> look my point is that it is a matter of opinion. Does Dylan make unique shapes? All of the shapes are copies of well known shapes too with same tweaks, the same that Skervesen, Mayones and ithers do. Yes Dylan's headstocks are much more beautiful than these abomination you posted, I cannot disagreeon this. I disagree with your take on Skervesen (btw I dont own a Skervesen, a Mayones or a Kiesel) Some of their superstrats are really beautiful. Not the most unique design in the world but still.



Man, Mayones doesn't deserve to keep being mentioned together with those guys.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Yours is nice because in a pinch you can transmute without drawing a circle.
> 
> 
> 
> Man, Mayones doesn't deserve to keep being mentioned together with those guys.


Fair enough, I d disagree again.


----------



## SamSam

narad said:


> Man, Mayones doesn't deserve to keep being mentioned together with those guys.



It's so fucking true, the skerv comparison is purely due to country of origin. Not on the same level of design or execution.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

SamSam said:


> That's what you are paying for. You are paying for the artistry. That's what sets them apart from your MM or Ibanez or whatever your brand of choice is.
> 
> Regarding those guitars posted (atlantean and the other one) I really cannot stand the regular orientated headstock at all, but in reverse it looks fucking amazing!
> 
> I doubt a plain daemoness will run you 5k, but please bear in mind the hours upon hours that go into planning, researching, designing and finally producing the art on his instruments. Art is rarely cheap, and dylan has established his talents fairly well.
> 
> It's a shame the custom shop will close commissions as I was hoping to order at some point (obviously I should have in 2013!)
> 
> And the subject of reviews, I've owned my cimmerian for 8+ years now. It's not going anywhere. It's the best sounding 7 I own, incredibly light and resonant and simply fun to play besides being beautiful.
> 
> With a custom shop you get a lot of options you won't get buying high end off the rack. Such as being able to specify a particularly light piece of wood for the body, wood figure characteristics etc that people often forget about (if you want to go into such depth of course. I know exactly what I want out of a guitar body so I tend to specify such when making a custom order. Dylan does (at least did) hand select his timber and seems to understand what makes a good piece of timber for an instrument.



Strong endorsement. Pulling me now again the other way. Yes, as I said even in my '(possible) Final Thoughts', I believe Dylan is an artist and is capable of offering something special. Everyone knows though the other issues I am grappling with here. Note: I can have a wild imagination, so a plain Daemoness would not suffice. I went from body art and inlay on V, to a cimmerian with an inlay. Now the inlay concept has changed. As to be expected over the course of 5 years. I was intrigued greatly with the personalization that the Daemoness experience offers. I wish a could say whole heartedly I'm willing to go all the way but I sincerely doubt that will happen. 

That being said, I am glad to hear that you find your Daemoness to be everything you could possibly want it to be and that it appears to be better than all other guitars you have experience with. Its nice to know true artistry is still out there and can deliver.


----------



## narad

SamSam said:


> It's so fucking true, the skerv comparison is purely due to country of origin. Not on the same level of design or execution.








Yea, Skervesen will never design a guitar with such beautiful lines as that.


----------



## SamSam

Bettershredthandead said:


> Strong endorsement. Pulling me now again the other way. Yes, as I said even in my '(possible) Final Thoughts', I believe Dylan is an artist and is capable of offering something special. Everyone knows though the other issues I am grappling with here. Note: I can have a wild imagination, so a plain Daemoness would not suffice. I went from body art and inlay on V, to a cimmerian with an inlay. Now the inlay concept has changed. As to be expected over the course of 5 years. I was intrigued greatly with the personalization that the Daemoness experience offers. I wish a could say whole heartedly I'll willing to go all the way but I sincerely doubt that will happen.
> 
> That being said, I am glad to hear that you find your Daemoness to be everything you could possibly want it to be and that it appears to be better than all other guitars you have experience with. Its nice to know true artistry is still out there and can deliver.



It's not better than every guitar I own in every way. It is better is many ways, but not all. However, saying that, I do believe that the guitars Dylan produced after mine (when the design was changed a little, such as the heel) appear from photos at least, to be of higher quality (as one would expect with growing experience).

Playability wise it is on par with my ESP custom shop. However the Kxk trumps all of them in terms of sheer playability (the daemoness definitely sounds better though) . But the level of thought and effort put into the design and its realisation more than make up for it. The build process and evolution in design was also a much more personal and involved experience. And that in itself holds a lot of value to me.

The wait time and stress might not be for you. I can appreciate that. I'll be honest, it takes a lot to get me stressed out about anything. I don't have a problem waiting years for a guita. Although 42 months was my longest wait I believe.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

SamSam said:


> It's not better than every guitar I own in every way. It is better is many ways, but not all. However, saying that, I do believe that the guitars Dylan produced after mine (when the design was changed a little, such as the heel) appear from photos at least, to be of higher quality (as one would expect with growing experience).
> 
> Playability wise it is on par with my ESP custom shop. However the Kxk trumps all of them in terms of sheer playability (the daemoness definitely sounds better though) . But the level of thought and effort put into the design and its realisation more than make up for it. The build process and evolution in design was also a much more personal and involved experience. And that in itself holds a lot of value to me.
> 
> The wait time and stress might not be for you. I can appreciate that. I'll be honest, it takes a lot to get me stressed out about anything. I don't have a problem waiting years for a guita. Although 42 months was my longest wait I believe.




Well, yeah for play-ability I pretty much have my favs already too. I've gone through all relevant brands: ESP, Jackson, Ibanez, Caparison etc. But I think OP basically hit the nail on the head hear regarding the situation for myself. 

Interesting though you say higher quality going forward after what was built for you. Would be nice to get some real comparison from those who have newer builds and have experience with the older then.


----------



## SamSam

Bettershredthandead said:


> Well, yeah for play-ability I pretty much have my favs already too. I've gone through all relevant brands: ESP, Jackson, Ibanez, Caparison etc. But I think frogman basically hit the nail on the head hear regarding the situation for myself.
> 
> Interesting though you say higher quality going forward after what was built for you. Would be nice to get some real comparison from those who have newer builds and have experience with the older then.



If you look at high quality photos of guitars from my batch (such as bulbs guitar) and compare them to some of the later build you can see where fit and finish has been improved.

Excluded the OPs guitar of course.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

SamSam said:


> If you look at high quality photos of guitars from my batch (such as bulbs guitar) and compare them to some of the later build you can see where fit and finish has been improved.
> 
> Excluded the OPs guitar of course.



Just to be clear by fit you are referring to assembly?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Anyone who thinks the atlantean is a good shape is just as in the wrong as someone that thinks a shoggie is ugly. Both are fucking hideous. That one-off daemoness is even worse.
But by all means continue the bickering oh great arbiters of taste.


----------



## narad

Bettershredthandead said:


> Well, yeah for play-ability I pretty much have my favs already too. I've gone through all relevant brands: ESP, Jackson, Ibanez, Caparison etc. But I think OP basically hit the nail on the head hear regarding the situation for myself.
> 
> Interesting though you say higher quality going forward after what was built for you. Would be nice to get some real comparison from those who have newer builds and have experience with the older then.



Newer builds are definitely higher quality, both in terms of refinement to the neck join and some of the binding and other basic woodworking, as well as construction-wise, with neck reinforcement. The newer things also have some cool add-ons from newer technology, like in the tesselated logod plastics.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> Anyone who thinks the atlantean is a good shape is just as in the wrong as someone that thinks a shoggie is ugly. Both are fucking hideous. That one-off daemoness is even worse.
> But by all means continue the bickering oh great arbiters of taste.



The difference is that one is supposed to be...


----------



## Bettershredthandead

KnightBrolaire said:


> Anyone who thinks the atlantean is a good shape is just as in the wrong as someone that thinks a shoggie is ugly. Both are fucking hideous. That one-off daemoness is even worse.
> But by all means continue the bickering oh great arbiters of taste.



Had to say that actually made me laugh out loud. Especially the 'oh great arbiters of taste' line. Thanx M8, I needed that too.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> The difference is that one is supposed to be...


Hurr Durrrr MeTaL ShApE sUpPoSeD tO bE UgLy
yeah ok bro just sell me your ken lawrence and buy a gibson reverse explorer then


----------



## Bettershredthandead

narad said:


> Newer builds are definitely higher quality, both in terms of refinement to the neck join and some of the binding and other basic woodworking, as well as construction-wise, with neck reinforcement. The newer things also have some cool add-ons from newer technology, like in the tesselated logod plastics.



That's more or less what I heard. The main refinement is in the neck reinforcement. Have to say though, the tesselated logod plastics, wasn't really feeling that. Yeah I could see the truss rod upgrade being a particularly appealing upgrade. It was mentioned as to why in part the price spiked....


----------



## mehegama

KnightBrolaire said:


> Anyone who thinks the atlantean is a good shape is just as in the wrong as someone that thinks a shoggie is ugly. Both are fucking hideous. That one-off daemoness is even worse.
> But by all means continue the bickering oh great arbiters of taste.


Exactly and this is why you dont use these as examples that represent a shop.


----------



## SamSam

On another note I do feel that people that expect perfection for the sum of ~£4000 do not appreciate the price of macro detailed perfection.

I see comments from poster stating that their sub £1k guitar are "perfect" are in my opinion farfetched and more likely simply ineexperienced opinion. I haven't seen a single guitar that i could describe as having absolutely no flaws in my entire life. I doubt such a thing exists frankly. Any opinion to the contrary would lead to me to believe that the error lies in the examination of the instrument as opposed to a testament of the instrument itself.

I've spent far more on watches that are imperfect and those are assembled with microscopes! The likelihood of a guitar matching that level of detail in incredibly unlikely.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Yea, Skervesen will never design a guitar with such beautiful lines as that.


Man, your statements are so strong always, that is a prs derivative which loads of companies have produced. I honestly do not see anything special that another company could not do.


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> Man, your statements are so strong always, that is a prs derivative which loads of companies have produced. I honestly do not see anything special that another company could not do.



Other than figured wood super strat standard, the shapes are quite different when held side by side. Completely different carves.


----------



## narad

KnightBrolaire said:


> Hurr Durrrr MeTaL ShApE sUpPoSeD tO bE UgLy
> yeah ok bro just sell me your ken lawrence and buy a gibson reverse explorer then



I mean, take it from literally the guy who ordered that guitar, the intent was to build an over-the-top Norse weapon-of-war in guitar form. It was to indulge a bit in creating something intimidating and mean-looking. Something not derivative on anything else on the market. It was not to make a 5A quilt maple pretty guitar. 

The problem to me, which I never encountered in that point in my life, is actually getting the guitar and sitting down with it, and seeing myself in my practice mirror and being like... these things don't fit. I'm not Kyle Rasmussen, I can't pull it off. That's why I don't have any Vixens or Bitches or Warlocks either.


----------



## Kovah

mehegama said:


> Man, your statements are so strong always, that is a prs derivative which loads of companies have produced. I honestly do not see anything special that another company could not do.



Well, the only similarity with a PRS is the carved top and it's not even the same carve. Are all carved top guitars (incl. Daemoness btw) PRS derivatives now?


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> Other than figured wood super strat standard, the shapes are quite different when held side by side. Completely different carves.


it is different (i used the word derivative for that but the basis is still the prs) but nothing that another luthier could not do.


----------



## mehegama

Kovah said:


> Well, the only similarity with a PRS is the carved top and it's not even the same carve. Are all carved top guitars (incl. Daemoness btw) PRS derivatives now?


If you think that that guitar is not based on a prs then we have a different perception on shapes.


----------



## SamSam

SamSam said:


> Other than figured wood super strat standard, the shapes are quite different when held side by side. Completely different carves.





mehegama said:


> it is different (i used the word derivative for that but the basis is still the prs) but nothing that another luthier could not do.



Yet so many fail so miserably.


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> Yet so many fail so miserably.


some do some don't I guess. Again it is a matter of perception


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> it is different (i used the word derivative for that but the basis is still the prs) but nothing that another luthier could not do.



I'm not claiming another luthier couldn't do it. I'm saying Skevesen has designed like 30 guitars and probably 30000 different headstocks, and still hasn't landed on one single combination that looks as nice as the core classic carve Mayones put on its Regius shape. Suits the body perfectly, suits the headstock perfectly. Just great work. The other core carve is not bad either:


----------



## Kovah

mehegama said:


> If you think that that guitar is not based on a prs then we have a different perception on shapes.



No one ever mentioned the Regius to be inspired by PRS before the core line. Since it's basically a Regius shape with a carved top I'm positive this is not based on a PRS. The Maestro is much closer to a PRS than a Regius.


----------



## Crash Dandicoot

^ I see a curvier Horizon-III with a reverse cockstock


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> I'm not claiming another luthier couldn't do it. I'm saying Skevesen has designed like 30 guitars and probably 30000 different headstocks, and still hasn't landed on one single combination that looks as nice as the core classic carve Mayones put on its Regius shape. Suits the body perfectly, suits the headstock perfectly. Just great work. The other core carve is not bad either:


I prefer the carved raptor and the nebelung over this one, but that's me (not with those awful headstocks though). This one has a beautiful flame indeed.



Kovah said:


> No one ever mentioned the Regius to be inspired by PRS before the core line. Since it's basically a Regius shape with a carved top I'm positive this is not based on a PRS.


i see a more asymetric prs with a longer upper horn. It also looks a lot like the Horizon III with a cockstock. I mean it s a super strat. You can alternate the shape just so much


----------



## KnightBrolaire

narad said:


> I mean, take it from literally the guy who ordered that guitar, the intent was to build an over-the-top Norse weapon-of-war in guitar form. It was to indulge a bit in creating something intimidating and mean-looking. Something not derivative on anything else on the market. It was not to make a 5A quilt maple pretty guitar.
> 
> The problem to me, which I never encountered in that point in my life, is actually getting the guitar and sitting down with it, and seeing myself in my practice mirror and being like... these things don't fit. I'm not Kyle Rasmussen, I can't pull it off. That's why I don't have any Vixens or Bitches or Warlocks either.


I love the inlay on that Atlantean, but at no point would I have guessed you were going for "norse weapon" vibes. 

I just think it's laughable in this day and age when people are still fixated on 80/90s imagery in terms of what is "metal". Plenty of metal has been created on les pauls and strats by guys with stupid teased out aquanet laden hair, just like it was made by sweaty no neck dudes wearing sweatpants playing Moser/BC Rich pointies. If metal is truly about going against the grain of what is normal both visually and sonically, then everyone after 1990 has failed miserably. Wearing spiked bracelets and straps in particular is probably the lamest fucking thing in metal besides corpsepaint. That shit has been played out since the early 90s. 

Play whatever you want. We're all just stupid guitar nerds sitting in our houses playing metal, so who cares about "image". To me that's more metal than being a tatted up hipster trying to relive the glory days of metal by wearing spiked straps and bullshit


----------



## diagrammatiks

I hate the mayones headstock.


----------



## SamSam

diagrammatiks said:


> I hate the mayones headstock.


Which one?


----------



## diagrammatiks

SamSam said:


> Which one?



all of them.


----------



## SDMFVan

KnightBrolaire said:


> I love the inlay on that Atlantean, but at no point would I have guessed you were going for "norse weapon" vibes.
> 
> I just think it's laughable in this day and age when people are still fixated on 80/90s imagery in terms of what is "metal". Plenty of metal has been created on les pauls and strats by guys with stupid teased out aquanet laden hair, just like it was made by sweaty no neck dudes wearing sweatpants playing Moser/BC Rich pointies. If metal is truly about going against the grain of what is normal both visually and sonically, then everyone after 1990 has failed miserably. Wearing spiked bracelets and straps in particular is probably the lamest fucking thing in metal besides corpsepaint. That shit has been played out since the early 90s.
> 
> Play whatever you want. We're all just stupid guitar nerds sitting in our houses playing metal, so who cares about "image". To me that's more metal than being a tatted up hipster trying to relive the glory days of metal by wearing spiked straps and bullshit



100% agree. The original heavy metal guitar tone came from an SG Special with P-90's...


----------



## spudmunkey

SamSam said:


> Which one?



For me, all of them except maybe this one or if here's one that's little shorter, but I dislike the "M" logo.


----------



## SamSam

They do produce a fair bit of variety, there must be about half a dozen.


----------



## mehegama

diagrammatiks said:


> all of them.


One of the reasons I was never into Mayones. I asked if I could change it and they said no, so...


----------



## Lorcan Ward

Bettershredthandead said:


> In the meantime, any other good experiences with playing on a buddies Daemoness? Or your own for that matter? I've heard one awesome review, let's have a few more. Tell me its keep worthy and not something that just ends up on Reverb right after buying in the name of flipping.
> 
> Shed some light in these dark days.



Here are some of the finer details on Dylan's instruments. 

The best part IMO is how smooth the fretwork is. Its polished to perfection so they are super smooth. With stainless this takes quite a bit of work but the results are well worth it. The fretboard edges are rounded, in this case the binding is rounded. Its just a subtle thing that helps with comfort. Same for the way the fret ends are done. You can see the angle in this picture and how they are slightly rolled at the top. The frets are also just slightly in from the edge which allows room for fret sprout expansion and also moves the fret edges that micro bit in so you don't feel them when you slide. You probably can't see but the fretboard was also polished to perfection and was like ice causing no drag when you touch it. 










The lower cutaway is very well designed. Effortless access to the 24th fret if you have problems with that. 





It was mentioned earlier about the transition from satin to gloss. It really bugs me seeing Kiesel and other guitar brands have the transition on the neck where you will hit it while playing. On a Cimmerian the whole neck joint is satin so if you touch it bending or playing the highest frets the surface feel won't change or cause your fingers to drag when you hit gloss. The neck finish is a very smooth satin. Think the J-custom velvet touch finish and its even smoother than that. 





Since its a "true" custom shop you can customise, modify or even design a guitar from the ground up if you have the money and creativity for it. What I mean by true is Mayones, Aristides or Kiesel are semi-custom so you have fixed specs that you can't alter but can choose what woods and come up with any finish ideas you want. Where Daemoness shines against other custom shops is coming up with crazy concepts and finishes. I know mine is an ordinary looking Daemoness compared to others, I had an inlay idea but went off it during the wait, I don't have any tattoos so I've never been able to settle with an art idea long enough to want it. The long wait will give you guys time to really spec out your instruments but you might have completely gone off what you want with how long the times are now. 

Back when I ordered I just wanted a high quality 7 string that had passive pickups, fixed bridge , 25.5" and a satin neck. That was almost impossible to find back then and the very few options would have cost me a LOT more than my Daemoness did. So when it did come to my spot I ordered a 25.5 - 26.5" which you still can't get in production guitars right now. 

Custom guitars are a luxury, we could all play and sound fine on prestiges and never have to spend more than $1.5k on an instrument but it is nice to have an instrument really tailored to your preferences. If you want a high quality guitar there are endless options but if you wanted for example a unique guitar to fuse your love of HP lovecraft and metal then Dylan is the guy for that. 





I did end up selling mine(and most of my guitars for bills) but it was a very nice guitar. If I was to order again I'd change some of the dimensions/construction and go for a decked out Egyptian themed build. I was kicking myself when i went to the shop to collect mine and saw the Sands of Time build. I wish I had thought of that. 

Your Daemoness could be the best guitar you've ever played and you'll fall in love with it or you could find its not for you. I thought the waiting times had gotten long when I got mine but to see it nearly doubling is alarming and I hope Dylan can get on top of it.


----------



## StevenC

The Daemoness I played was the biggest guitar I have ever played. Just humongous. Wasn't for me, but I'm a short guy with abnormal skeletal geometry.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

StevenC said:


> The Daemoness I played was the biggest guitar I have ever played. Just humongous. Wasn't for me, but I'm a short guy with abnormal skeletal geometry.



Was it a Cimmerian?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Lorcan Ward said:


> If you want a high quality guitar there are endless options but if you wanted for example a unique guitar to fuse your love of HP lovecraft and metal then Dylan is the guy for that.



Indeed and very nicely put as well. I too have felt the urge to have a Lovecratian inlay.


----------



## StevenC

Bettershredthandead said:


> Was it a Cimmerian?


Yeah. To be fair, I played it back to back against Strandbergs and a Parker. But it was really big.


----------



## mehegama

Lorcan Ward said:


> Here are some of the finer details on Dylan's instruments.
> 
> The best part IMO is how smooth the fretwork is. Its polished to perfection so they are super smooth. With stainless this takes quite a bit of work but the results are well worth it. The fretboard edges are rounded, in this case the binding is rounded. Its just a subtle thing that helps with comfort. Same for the way the fret ends are done. You can see the angle in this picture and how they are slightly rolled at the top. The frets are also just slightly in from the edge which allows room for fret sprout expansion and also moves the fret edges that micro bit in so you don't feel them when you slide. You probably can't see but the fretboard was also polished to perfection and was like ice causing no drag when you touch it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lower cutaway is very well designed. Effortless access to the 24th fret if you have problems with that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was mentioned earlier about the transition from satin to gloss. It really bugs me seeing Kiesel and other guitar brands have the transition on the neck where you will hit it while playing. On a Cimmerian the whole neck joint is satin so if you touch it bending or playing the highest frets the surface feel won't change or cause your fingers to drag when you hit gloss. The neck finish is a very smooth satin. Think the J-custom velvet touch finish and its even smoother than that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since its a "true" custom shop you can customise, modify or even design a guitar from the ground up if you have the money and creativity for it. What I mean by true is Mayones, Aristides or Kiesel are semi-custom so you have fixed specs that you can't alter but can choose what woods and come up with any finish ideas you want. Where Daemoness shines against other custom shops is coming up with crazy concepts and finishes. I know mine is an ordinary looking Daemoness compared to others, I had an inlay idea but went off it during the wait, I don't have any tattoos so I've never been able to settle with an art idea long enough to want it. The long wait will give you guys time to really spec out your instruments but you might have completely gone off what you want with how long the times are now.
> 
> Back when I ordered I just wanted a high quality 7 string that had passive pickups, fixed bridge , 25.5" and a satin neck. That was almost impossible to find back then and the very few options would have cost me a LOT more than my Daemoness did. So when it did come to my spot I ordered a 25.5 - 26.5" which you still can't get in production guitars right now.
> 
> Custom guitars are a luxury, we could all play and sound fine on prestiges and never have to spend more than $1.5k on an instrument but it is nice to have an instrument really tailored to your preferences. If you want a high quality guitar there are endless options but if you wanted for example a unique guitar to fuse your love of HP lovecraft and metal then Dylan is the guy for that.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did end up selling mine(and most of my guitars for bills) but it was a very nice guitar. If I was to order again I'd change some of the dimensions/construction and go for a decked out Egyptian themed build. I was kicking myself when i went to the shop to collect mine and saw the Sands of Time build. I wish I had thought of that.
> 
> Your Daemoness could be the best guitar you've ever played and you'll fall in love with it or you could find its not for you. I thought the waiting times had gotten long when I got mine but to see it nearly doubling is alarming and I hope Dylan can get on top of it.


Great details, thanks! To be honest all my custom shop Horizons play like a dream, the frtework is perfect, access and neck comfyness is to the max, and the curves and shape of the guitar is just beautiful. To me this is the standard for any guitar, in terms of playability. In terms of looks, a Daemoness will almost always be more artistic.


----------



## feraledge

narad said:


> But I want to point this out to the people that are new-ish to customs: it never works out the way you want it to


It can if you really know what you want and it’s a realistic expectation. My Horizon came out almost identical to my mock up and feels as expected. But it’s not reinventing the wheel. 



narad said:


> The difference is that one is supposed to be...


Legit LOL’ed



Crash Dandicoot said:


> ^ I see a curvier Horizon-III with a reverse cockstock


I see it being between an Horizon III and a Formula, which is a really good thing. 

I mean, the books are closed, so mostly this is all a moot point, but while Dylan can build a fine guitar, Daemoness as a brand is really a brand. 
He’s an artist and a metal head and meticulous. I don’t see how anyone can be like “is it worth it” when it just is what it is. And if you aren’t in for his brand, then I wouldn’t think Daems would be on a normal list of just well done guitars. Not that they aren’t, just that there’s a vision with them and it goes from way over the top to just a tasteful appreciation of the woods and craft, like Lorcan’s or some of the less brutally metal looking guitars he’s done. 
Just seems like if you’re in for this, you should know what you’re getting into and trust Dylan’s process. That said, yeah the wait times got whack. Which I think he has done a good job addressing, but get why people would say enough too. 
But just wanting a really nice custom doesn’t seem like enough reason alone to be wondering if you made the right decision to get in line. I feel like that should be obvious.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

StevenC said:


> Yeah. To be fair, I played it back to back against Strandbergs and a Parker. But it was really big.



Yeah from what I've seen the model looks like it has some meat to it.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Yeah from what I've seen the model looks like it has some meat to it.



It’s a lot beefier than my Chronicler. But then again LP’s are smaller guitars, and I’m 6’4.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> It’s a lot beefier than my Chronicler. But then again LP’s are smaller guitars, and I’m 6’4.



The Chronicler appears to be Dylan's take on an LP that's rather shaved down so to speak when compared to an actual Gibson LP. I have an actual Gibson Les Paul which have their fair share of meat on them and are rather heavy. My Dinkys' definitely have less meat on them in comparison and prooooooobably so do my RGs. So I wonder now how the weight and mass of the Cimmerian compares to the weight and mass of an actual Gibson LP.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> The Chronicler appears to be Dylan's take on an LP that's rather shaved down so to speak when compared to an actual Gibson LP. I have an actual Gibson Les Paul which have their fair share of meat on them and are rather heavy. My Dinkys' definitely have less meat on them in comparison and prooooooobably so do my RGs. So I wonder now how the weight and mass of the Cimmerian compares to the weight and mass of an actual Gibson LP.


I have never played one but seems that the Cimmerian has a big body. The horns are huge and looking at the pics the neck seems big too so I would estimate about 10-20 % more wood than my Horizons


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> I have never played one but seems that the Cimmerian has a big body. The horns are huge and looking at the pics the neck seems big too so I would estimate about 10-20 % more wood than my Horizons



Yeah I noticed that about the horns as well. Its probably one the chunkier strat-like designs out there.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> Yeah I noticed that about the horns as well. Its probably one the chunkier strat-like designs out there.


It s a shame i ll never get to experience it in real life. Maybe in the future i buy oNe of the stock ones


----------



## IbanezDaemon

mehegama said:


> I have never played one but seems that the Cimmerian has a big body. The horns are huge and looking at the pics the neck seems big too so I would estimate about 10-20 % more wood than my Horizons



Cimmerian beside Ibanez J Custom for comparison:


----------



## mehegama

IbanezDaemon said:


> Cimmerian beside Ibanez J Custom for comparison:
> 
> View attachment 83558
> View attachment 83559


the neck o this one is def wider. Also the body slightly meatier but not a massive difference


----------



## Blytheryn

mehegama said:


> the neck o this one is def wider. Also the body slightly meatier but not a massive difference



Yeah it’s a 7 vs a 6.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> It s a shame i ll never get to experience it in real life. Maybe in the future i buy oNe of the stock ones



Same here. Kinda wish I just picked up that sea foam green one that went straight to reverb seemingly right after the guy got it. I think that thing was going in around 3700 or so on reverb which was the price I was originally quoted at.

Then again, the whole point of the Daemoness experience is to get what YOU want exactly and go through that whole personalized customization process. Although there are a few Daemoness out there that I would seriously consider picking up if I saw them go on Reverb.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> Same here. Kinda wish I just picked up that sea foam green one that went straight to reverb seemingly right after the guy got it. I think that thing was going in around 3700 or so on reverb which was the price I was originally quoted at.


did you have a talk with Dylan yet? regarding your situation?


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> did you have a talk with Dylan yet? regarding your situation?



I sent him an email and no response yet. How bout you?


----------



## Scud7011

Bettershredthandead said:


> Same here. Kinda wish I just picked up that sea foam green one that went straight to reverb seemingly right after the guy got it. I think that thing was going in around 3700 or so on reverb which was the price I was originally quoted at.


That's probably about what it cost from Dylan. A barebones Cimmerian with a solid color finish like that would probably run around 3k GBP, which was like 3.7k USD at the time. I don't know what the exchange rate is now but I don't think it's changed all that much.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Scud7011 said:


> That's probably about what it cost from Dylan. A barebones Cimmerian with a solid color finish like that would probably run around 3k GBP, which was like 3.7k USD at the time. I don't know what the exchange rate is now but I don't think it's changed all that much.



Now, you're coming in closer to the 4000 to 4500 USD range I believe. For something without art. I'm also inclined to believe that was the old pricing system to which the sea foam was in the last batch for that.

Back in 2015, my initial flying V idea was quoted as about 3700 USD with art both on the body and neck.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> I sent him an email and no response yet. How bout you?


I must be one of the first and honoured ones to get a reply by him. So basically he told me that he is currently working on scheduling his work for the next 12 months and my guitar is not in that. Also he said that he can never properly predict how much time things will take and what challenges he can face and that this is an estimate but cannot guarantee. 

As you understand seems that all our estimates here seem to be correct as we do not need to be insiders to know the situation. It is simple maths. So unfortunately i ll have to go for the refund.

I m really glad that Dylan admitted the long delays and offered those affected a solutions via the refund of the downpayment. I hope this will be solved amicably.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> I must be one of the first and honoured ones to get a reply by him. So basically he told me that he is currently working on scheduling his work for the next 12 months and my guitar is not in that. Also he said that he can never properly predict how much time things will take and what challenges he can face and that this is an estimate but cannot guarantee.
> 
> As you understand seems that all our estimates here seem to be correct as we do not need to be insiders to know the situation. It is simple maths. So unfortunately i ll have to go for the refund.
> 
> I m really glad that Dylan admitted the long delays and offered those affected a solutions via the refund of the downpayment. I hope this will be solved amicably.




I put in my message to him yesterday. Is that when you did as well?


----------



## Scud7011

Bettershredthandead said:


> Now, you're coming in closer to the 4000 to 4500 USD range I believe. For something without art. I'm also inclined to believe that was the old pricing system to which the sea foam was in the last batch for that.


Uhhh, no. It's pretty common knowledge that builds used to start at like 2.4k and Dylan increased that to about 3K. Nothing about that seafoam build would have increased the price beyond the base price.

You were also the one that said you didn't believe Dylan was being truthful when he told you the increased price of your build was because you switched from a 6 string to a 7 and decided on 2 pickups instead of 1. You could have literally just looked at the order form they use to know those changes will increase the price of the build.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> I put in my message to him yesterday. Is that when you did as well?


no few days ago


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Scud7011 said:


> Uhhh, no. It's pretty common knowledge that builds used to start at like 2.4k and Dylan increased that to about 3K. Nothing about that seafoam build would have increased the price beyond the base price.
> 
> You were also the one that said you didn't believe Dylan was being truthful when he told you the increased price of your build was because you switched from a 6 string to a 7 and decided on 2 pickups instead of 1. You could have literally just looked at the order form they use to know those changes will increase the price of the build.



Then what are you saying the base price is for the sea foam?

And no you're wrong. I was not saying he was untruthful. Although there is ambiguity regarding what the price increase was all about which others in this thread did seem to verify occurred. 

Let's try and get the facts straight before we accuse one another of calling someone a liar. There has been alot of info espoused here, and issues regarding, let's just say pricing ambiguities.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

I just looked at the spec-order form Barnes gave me back in Sept 2018. There was no pricing info on it regarding body type or for anything else like that from what I can see. I did get a build estimate from Barnes in November 2018 with costs line itemed coming in at around 4000 USD not including art. My art back then would have raised the price to either 4500 USD or beyond. That was confirmed via our Skype session and some further email correspondence. That was going with a Cimmerian build coupled with inlay on the fret board.

Now when I initially asked Dylan back in December of 2015 what my flying V idea would cost with body AND inlay, he said 2500 pounds which around that time I believe was about 3700 USD. Can't remember the exchange rate at the time but I believe that was about it.

What is in question here: does the body design of a Cimmerian vs a 'V' by Daemoness make a difference in costs?


----------



## Vyn

Bettershredthandead said:


> I just looked at the spec-order form Barnes gave me back in Sept 2018. There was no pricing info on it regarding body type or for anything else like that from what I can see. I did get a build estimate from Barnes in November 2018 with costs line itemed coming in at around 4000 USD not including art. My art back then would have raised the price to either 4500 USD or beyond. That was confirmed via our Skype session and some further email correspondence. That was going with a Cimmerian build coupled with inlay on the fret board.
> 
> Now when I initially asked Dylan back in December of 2015 what my flying V idea would cost with body AND inlay, he said 2500 pounds which around that time I believe was about 3700 USD. Can't remember the exchange rate at the time but I believe that was about it.
> 
> What is in question here: does the body design of a Cimmerian vs a 'V' by Daemoness make a difference in costs?



It's not uncommon for body shapes to incur an up-charge. For example, the base price for a custom Ormsby is $3900AUD and that nets yout a bolt-on Hypemachine from memory. Going a V shape is an upcharge of $150AUD.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Vyn said:


> It's not uncommon for body shapes to incur an up-charge. For example, the base price for a custom Ormsby is $3900AUD and that nets yout a bolt-on Hypemachine from memory. Going a V shape is an upcharge of $150AUD.



And fair enough. Unfortunately, due to the way the business process that I went through with Daemoness, you would never actually be 100% sure of that.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> And fair enough. Unfortunately, due to the way the business process that I went through with Daemoness, you would never actually be 100% sure of that.


I compared my spec sheet from early 2018 with one of late 2019 and the common specs have the same price. so he did not change his estimates over that period.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> I compared my spec sheet from early 2018 with one of late 2019 and the common specs have the same price. so he did not change his estimates over that period.



As one would surmise from that time frame. But how does a Daemoness estimate compare prior to 2018 going back 2015?

I have to bring up again how this isn't my first rodeo for boutiques. When I went with Blackat for my first custom in 2015, the spec-form process was much more transparent in that the first and only form you filled out and recieved actually had prices associated with each spec you chose. The way Daemoness goes about this unfortunately creates ambiguities.


----------



## narad

Bettershredthandead said:


> As one would surmise from that time frame. But how does a Daemoness estimate compare prior to 2018 going back 2015?
> 
> I have to bring up again how this isn't my first rodeo for boutiques. When I went with Blackat for my first custom in 2015, the spec-form process was much more transparent in that the first and only form you filled out and recieved actually had prices associated with each spec you chose. The way Daemoness goes about this unfortunately creates ambiguities.



I think it's not a good comparison. For instance, with the Atlantean, I got a rough quote for the guitar knowing that I wanted some full fretboard inlay (I was really into PRS dragons). I think the range in the upper and lower bound on that quote was around $800. When he actually started building it and designing the inlay and we confirmed about it, then we agreed on the actual price.

Comparisons to companies that don't do fancy things don't seem ..well...comparable. 

But ya, I seem to recall the estimates given out at the time of joining the waitlist to be provided in a very non-binding "rough estimate" sort of way. Am I wrong? Anyone's quote say specifically it will absolutely cost exactly $X and then he actually charged $X+$Y?


----------



## Flappydoodle

MaxOfMetal said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it _*the time before the build*_ that's taking long, and not specifically the process?
> 
> If you're actually asking, depending on the finish type and equipment, it can be as much as 30 days to completely cure, though that wouldn't be a direct factor as Daemoness outsources finish work, so they'd be at the mercy of the vendor there.
> 
> Re: Inlay: do you want him to do the "simple" inlays first to get guitars moving through the process, or do you want it first in/first out? It's a one man operation, any inlay work (and anything specialty in general) will slow the orders after it. So if your guitar is basic, but there are half a dozen super complex ones ahead of it, there will be increased waiting. Unless you want the queue to skip around. But weren't folks getting mad about that too?



It's both, right? OPs guitar photographed on Instagram in Feb but not delivered for another 8 months. Something in the process is slower than it should be.

And no, I don't think it's easy or simple, but those are things somebody running a business for 10 years should have worked out.



Bettershredthandead said:


> Just read the post. I've been waiting for 5 years. Only to have to make another decision. Truthfully, the cost of paying 5k USD for a guitar, albeit custom spec'ed to a tee and with an artistic concept of my choosing, is just a little too much for this guy to really shell out for an axe. Not necessarily that I can't but is it really worth it? I mean, I don't even really know how the Daemoness Cimmerian even feels in the hands. I've heard it described as 'other worldy' but quite frankly I've come to realize that the feel and sound of guitars like Jackson and Ibanez are more than satisfying for my metal playing needs. There's a part of me that feels its time to just pick up that Caparison I always wanted instead.
> 
> Change my mind.



I'm feeling similar tbh. Actually the money doesn't bother me, but the whole idea of going for some wild artistic custom has just grown... stale for me. I definitely got caught up in some hype that I now regret. 

Ordering some battleaxe theme guitar sound very cool on paper. But at the end of the day it might not suit you if you're a skinny, decidedly non-viking computer nerd. Same for me - some sort of "metal" build just feels pretty stupid for a grown up married guy with children and a very proper job. I don't even have any tattoos, haha.

And yeah, the Daemoness I played was a nice guitar but not set up in the way I like, so I definitely wouldn't say it was "otherworldly".



Blytheryn said:


> I’ll clarify - You’re telling me you put down a deposit on an instrument without getting any idea of the quality level of the instrument you’d be receiving?



Surely most people are in that situation. Where can someone find a Daemoness to try?

For quality, you can look at photos. But hey, the photos of OP's guitar on Instagram and Facebook looked great. 

If OP hadn't posted the crooked bridge, gouges in the fretboard, terrible finish work etc, how would you know it was a total pile of shit?



Blytheryn said:


> People who really want a Daemoness can live with the wait, know what they’re getting into, and don’t cry when their emails don’t get answered. Because they know/trust the end product to be worth it. If that’s not for you, luckily enough almost everything else should be.



I don't think this is fair or accurate. This isn't the third world. If you are placing an order with a British business (or sole trader, in this case) and giving them a chunk of money, there is an expectation that your questions will be answered, and that your product will be delivered in a manner which was agreed on. There are consumer protection laws for this reason that a company can't just take your money and then do whatever the fuck they want. It doesn't work that way, and there's no such thing as "know what they're getting into", sorry.



Bettershredthandead said:


> In the meantime, any other good experiences with playing on a buddies Daemoness? Or your own for that matter? I've heard one awesome review, let's have a few more. Tell me its keep worthy and not something that just ends up on Reverb right after buying in the name of flipping.
> 
> Shed some light in these dark days.



I played one Daemoness Cimmerian, at the shop. It was nice. Didn't blow me away or anything. Definitely wasn't "otherworldly".

But - the neck wasn't to my taste, action was super, super low which also isn't to my taste. Super hard to judge an entire brand by one guitar that you play once, especially when the brand will build anything. There's a possibility he could have made the perfect guitar for me.

And of course it's really subjective. I went to the ESP shop in Tokyo and played maybe 15 Horizons (Ltd, Eii, Original and custom shops) before I chose mine. Money isn't a factor, and I ended up picking an Eii, which was the absolute best guitar I played. But someone else might have picked a different guitar.


----------



## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Ordering some battleaxe theme guitar sound very cool on paper. But at the end of the day it might not suit you if you're a skinny, decidedly non-viking computer nerd.



Hey! Who are you calling skinny!?


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Hey! Who are you calling skinny!?



Haha, sorry man, just taking a guess!


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad, out of curiousity. Do you think the Skervesens look ridiculous because they designed their guitars without intention? Whereas the Atlantean was designed to be what it was? That's not a great qualifier for what is and isn't a good guitar design.

It's funny because I was discussing a custom guitar order soon and I consider Skervesen because I was able to get my hands on a Raptor/Nebulung, and all design choices and specs aside there was absolutely nothing wrong with either guitar (Other than the zero fret on the Nebulung, absolutely hate that so many of their instruments have those.). Assuming they were designed without intention is pretty ignorant IMO, I'm not going to pretend that all their designs are winners but I enjoy a fair number of them enough that I'd even order one.

Below were the two I owned, I'm no going to pretend grey ivoroid/brown fretboard wasn't a bad choice for specs. But I enjoyed the chance to try the brand out in a more recent capacity than the older guitars people harped on about for.


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> narad, out of curiousity. Do you think the Skervesens look ridiculous because they designed their guitars without intention? Whereas the Atlantean was designed to be what it was? That's not a great qualifier for what is and isn't a good guitar design.



They're not designed without intention. That would be like accidentally designing a guitar. Though the Shoggie does look like some sort of outline one might draw doing some sort of subconscious doodling.

I was saying that if you look at a Skervesn and say that's hideous, and you look at my Atlanean and say that's hideous, well, there was some intention of making that guitar a bit more jarring to the eyes than presumably was there when Skervesen was designing the Shoggie. I think they were trying to make a nice-looking guitar shape there and just failed. Didn't they have a Swan or something like that back in the day that was similarly disproportioned but kiiinda okay? It looked like the Shoggie was just the headless hack on the Swan general lines.

I'll summarize in 2 points:

1.) It's not hard to design a guitar. Finding one or two shapes in a line-up isn't much of a defense of a guitar brand's design skills. Look across the entire Skervesen portfolio of shapes and I see far more misses than I see hits. I see far more twists on what was popular than anything that shows some artistic talent, or creative vision. Which is not surprising for a brand that came to SSO as basically everyone's blackmachine clone brand.

2.) In the design field there is the idea of "design language", of having some consistent theme or style that's repeated across different instances. Padalka is a great example of having an established design language -- you can see those kind of concave bits and immediately know it's a Padalka, even if you haven't seen exactly that shape before. If I magically made up a guitar, you could tell me if it's like a Fender or not. The Ken Lawrence headstock he uses on explorers, singlecuts, and basses, are all a bit different, but they all have clear design features that are Ken's (the main point, the fins, slight asymmetry in the fins). I think Skervesen is a terrible design brand because they have no design consistency, besides riffing on other people's shapes. 

If you show me some random guitar and ask me if it's a Skervesen, I think, well, does it have a bunch off odd "edgy" bits for no reason, and is it popular with some terrible color scheme like it's designed by a jr high student? Or is it nice looking, but terribly generic (like when they actually get a customer with some taste, like that Nebulung)? Can't really say they established themselves with anything uniquely them. I even think Kiesel does a better job ( ::gasp:: )


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> They're not designed without intention. That would be like accidentally designing a guitar. Though the Shoggie does look like some sort of outline one might draw doing some sort of subconscious doodling.
> 
> I was saying that if you look at a Skervesn and say that's hideous, and you look at my Atlanean and say that's hideous, well, there was some intention of making that guitar a bit more jarring to the eyes than presumably was there when Skervesen was designing the Shoggie. I think they were trying to make a nice-looking guitar shape there and just failed. Didn't they have a Swan or something like that back in the day that was similarly disproportioned but kiiinda okay? It looked like the Shoggie was just the headless hack on the Swan general lines.
> 
> I'll summarize in 2 points:
> 
> 1.) It's not hard to design a guitar. Finding one or two shapes in a line-up isn't much of a defense of a guitar brand's design skills. Look across the entire Skervesen portfolio of shapes and I see far more misses than I see hits. I see far more twists on what was popular than anything that shows some artistic talent, or creative vision. Which is not surprising for a brand that came to SSO as basically everyone's blackmachine clone brand.
> 
> 2.) In the design field there is the idea of "design language", of having some consistent theme or style that's repeated across different instances. Padalka is a great example of having an established design language -- you can see those kind of concave bits and immediately know it's a Padalka, even if you haven't seen exactly that shape before. If I magically made up a guitar, you could tell me if it's like a Fender or not. The Ken Lawrence headstock he uses on explorers, singlecuts, and basses, are all a bit different, but they all have clear design features that are Ken's (the main point, the fins, slight asymmetry in the fins). I think Skervesen is a terrible design brand because they have no design consistency, besides riffing on other people's shapes.
> 
> If you show me some random guitar and ask me if it's a Skervesen, I think, well, does it have a bunch off odd "edgy" bits for no reason, and is it popular with some terrible color scheme like it's designed by a jr high student? Or is it nice looking, but terribly generic (like when they actually get a customer with some taste, like that Nebulung)? Can't really say they established themselves with anything uniquely them. I even think Kiesel does a better job ( ::gasp:: )



The Swan is actually my favorite shape of theirs, if I ended up with one it'd probably be one of these.





But even looking at something like the Shoggie, the major changes were those that are typically made to take a design and make it a headless.

1) Slightly smaller body
2) Tuner-Access cutout/access
3) Optional, but the strandberg thigh curve






Nothing particularly offensive about these two shapes, but you're right if we're talking about true misses I'd have to name them. The mirage is a pretty safe shape, so much so that it seems weird in the catalog with all of it's other design choices across models. The chickenhawk is pretty hideous zero defense for that... but other than those two the Modern Day Babylon Signature isn't my favorite, and neither is the Tamandua. EDIT: Just say the Astilla, make it 5 misses.

Even something like the Skerveten seems perfectly adequate, other than for my preference still having wood around the tuners (Much prefer the open space look in general).





Idk, I get the dislike on the Blackmachine front cause you're pretty consistent about that across all brands that cashed in on it, but to look at Skervesen's catalog and say there are more misses than hits is way too extreme IMO.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

Jonathan20022 said:


> to look at Skervesen's catalog and say there are more misses than hits is way too extreme IMO.



You know, I hadn't looked at the Skerv lineup in ages, and I was ready to chalk this up to @narad just being picky, but they do really make some needlessly ugly shapes. So maybe saying "most" are bad is hyperbolic, but I'd say that the good ones are almost so similar that they seem almost redundant. 

Of course, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and all that jazz.


----------



## narad

Hey I mean, a lot of people bought those Ed Hardy shirts.

The other thing is like if you're good at designing, you don't have a million designs. You think about what your superstrat is going to be, then you design it and build it. If you build 30 different superstrats, you seem more like aliexpress than an actual luthier.


----------



## Blytheryn

Flappydoodle said:


> I don't think this is fair or accurate. This isn't the third world. If you are placing an order with a British business (or sole trader, in this case) and giving them a chunk of money, there is an expectation that your questions will be answered, and that your product will be delivered in a manner which was agreed on. There are consumer protection laws for this reason that a company can't just take your money and then do whatever the fuck they want. It doesn't work that way, and there's no such thing as "know what they're getting into", sorry.



Well that’s fair. I’ve always known the Daemoness queue to be long and and probably longer than estimated, but everyone received their guitar so I was like well fuck it. It comes when it comes. The fact that it’s not on a schedule doesn’t bother me, I’ve got other stuff to do with my life than sit in my bedroom and play guitar for the Anna Nicole Smith poster on my wall.

I’m getting an Ironbird with a fucking fighter jet inlay, dude. I could less about how long it takes.

I realize that I’m not everyone. I haven’t been burned by previous dodgy custom shops like BRJ or whatever. Dylan makes a product I want specifically. If he doesn’t make a product you want specifically, and you can get that anywhere else then you’re better off going that route.

The fact of the matter is that Dylan has addressed faults in communication and the queue. I’m sure you’ll be offered a refund for your deposit if you so choose.


----------



## Winspear

narad said:


> Yea, Skervesen will never design a guitar with such beautiful lines as that.



The discussion proves your point imo - some designers just don't have an eye for it and plenty of consumers can't see the difference to discuss it either. I feel like many don't pay attention to line consistency, balance/symmetry and/or brand consistency



mehegama said:


> In my opinion Daemoness is only worth it if want to go crazy with inlays and graphics. Other than that, it s a standard guitar. When i see a good chunk of his guitars that are very plain Janes, I m wondering why anyone do that. Can you explain why you wouldnt get a Skervesen for 800 or a kiesel for 500?



I get it - in some ways it is a bold statement and stands out as special _because _of brand knowledge of what it could have been but decided not to. A plain guitar is just a plain guitar - a plain Daemoness is badass because it is plain


----------



## Blytheryn

Winspear said:


> I get it - in some ways it is a bold statement and stands out as special _because _of brand knowledge of what it could have been but decided not to



This is exactly what I had in mind.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Flappydoodle said:


> I'm feeling similar tbh. Actually the money doesn't bother me, but the whole idea of going for some wild artistic custom has just grown... stale for me. I definitely got caught up in some hype that I now regret.
> 
> Ordering some battleaxe theme guitar sound very cool on paper. But at the end of the day it might not suit you if you're a skinny, decidedly non-viking computer nerd. Same for me - some sort of "metal" build just feels pretty stupid for a grown up married guy with children and a very proper job. I don't even have any tattoos, haha.
> 
> And yeah, the Daemoness I played was a nice guitar but not set up in the way I like, so I definitely wouldn't say it was "otherworldly".



Nonsense. I'm 6'9", nothing but walking muscle, live in parts unknown of the cold desolate genocidal Eurasian steppes and often times throw my children into a pit of wild feral man eating dogs to see if they can survive and fend for themselves. If they don't, I go on a raid, grab another woman and make another. I just so happen to have wi-fi here. That and a starbucks around the corner from my yurt....






Flappydoodle said:


> I played one Daemoness Cimmerian, at the shop. It was nice. Didn't blow me away or anything. Definitely wasn't "otherworldly".
> 
> But - the neck wasn't to my taste, action was super, super low which also isn't to my taste. Super hard to judge an entire brand by one guitar that you play once, especially when the brand will build anything. There's a possibility he could have made the perfect guitar for me.
> 
> And of course it's really subjective. I went to the ESP shop in Tokyo and played maybe 15 Horizons (Ltd, Eii, Original and custom shops) before I chose mine. Money isn't a factor, and I ended up picking an Eii, which was the absolute best guitar I played. But someone else might have picked a different guitar.



So I notice there seems to be some confusion between 'otherwordly'/'feel' and 'setup'. I will do my best to clarify here: so I can 'setup' almost any guitar I like and make it playable along the fret board so long as there isn't anything seriously wrong with it. I've done that plenty of times by simply making bridge adjustments, swapping out the strings, and adjusting the truss rod. This is exactly how my first custom order guitar came to me - the Blackat. It had a questionable 'setup' which the company is known for. However I was able to make said adjustments, and now the thing is fine and plays well in regards to its action.

'Feel' and 'otherwordly' is more like how is the radius of the neck like? How does it feel when you run your fingers over the fret board in regards to 'smoothness'? Usually this alludes to how well the fret work was done. Also is it contoured well in all the right places so it feels good against the body and on the right hand so its nice and ergonomic etc. etc. These are actually things I found lacking with the Blackat experience a tad here and there. These are really things that are out of my control and that are solely the job of the luthier to get right. Unless I choose the wrong spec here or there particularly for let's say neck profile, but enough there...

And yeah I've been to that Edwards shop too in Tokyo. My last favs when running through the Tokyo guitar districts were a J-custom I played and a Caparison Horus. Really wish I left Tokyo with the Horus back in 2018.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

narad said:


> I think it's not a good comparison. For instance, with the Atlantean, I got a rough quote for the guitar knowing that I wanted some full fretboard inlay (I was really into PRS dragons). I think the range in the upper and lower bound on that quote was around $800. When he actually started building it and designing the inlay and we confirmed about it, then we agreed on the actual price.
> 
> Comparisons to companies that don't do fancy things don't seem ..well...comparable.
> 
> But ya, I seem to recall the estimates given out at the time of joining the waitlist to be provided in a very non-binding "rough estimate" sort of way. Am I wrong? Anyone's quote say specifically it will absolutely cost exactly $X and then he actually charged $X+$Y?



The custom art pricing is an entirely different matter....

I'm talking about having a sheet with prices for your specs like type of body (V, Strat, LP type etc.) among other things just like Tomek provides his customers. I mean, its not like Blackat doesn't have a myriad of different options you go can through and choose from. There are prices clearly provided on that initial sheet and any quote you get from Tomek prior would be in line with what's on that sheet. 

Note: I am not saying that Blackat is as artistic as Daemoness or perhaps even refined. However, that end of the business process I have described above is handled extremely well by Tomek.

I mean, look at all the confusion there is here on this thread with the Daemoness pricing among not only myself but others. Surely that speaks for itself.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> The custom art pricing is an entirely different matter....
> 
> I'm talking about having a sheet with prices for your specs like type of body (V, Strat, LP type etc.) among other things just like Tomek provides his customers. I mean, its not like Blackat doesn't have a myriad of different options you go can through and choose from. There are prices clearly provided on that initial sheet and any quote you get from Tomek prior would be in line with what's on that sheet.
> 
> Note: I am not saying that Blackat is as artistic as Daemoness or perhaps even refined. However, that end of the business process I have described above is handled extremely well by Tomek.
> 
> I mean, look at all the confusion there is here on this thread with the Daemoness pricing among not only myself but others. Surely that speaks for itself.



It’s stated either in the intro email or on the website somewhere that the basic guitar or regardless of shape costs like 2k GBP. 7’s cost more. Hardware is added on top and then any blingage you decided to tack on.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> They're not designed without intention. That would be like accidentally designing a guitar. Though the Shoggie does look like some sort of outline one might draw doing some sort of subconscious doodling.
> 
> I was saying that if you look at a Skervesn and say that's hideous, and you look at my Atlanean and say that's hideous, well, there was some intention of making that guitar a bit more jarring to the eyes than presumably was there when Skervesen was designing the Shoggie. I think they were trying to make a nice-looking guitar shape there and just failed. Didn't they have a Swan or something like that back in the day that was similarly disproportioned but kiiinda okay? It looked like the Shoggie was just the headless hack on the Swan general lines.
> 
> I'll summarize in 2 points:
> 
> 1.) It's not hard to design a guitar. Finding one or two shapes in a line-up isn't much of a defense of a guitar brand's design skills. Look across the entire Skervesen portfolio of shapes and I see far more misses than I see hits. I see far more twists on what was popular than anything that shows some artistic talent, or creative vision. Which is not surprising for a brand that came to SSO as basically everyone's blackmachine clone brand.
> 
> 2.) In the design field there is the idea of "design language", of having some consistent theme or style that's repeated across different instances. Padalka is a great example of having an established design language -- you can see those kind of concave bits and immediately know it's a Padalka, even if you haven't seen exactly that shape before. If I magically made up a guitar, you could tell me if it's like a Fender or not. The Ken Lawrence headstock he uses on explorers, singlecuts, and basses, are all a bit different, but they all have clear design features that are Ken's (the main point, the fins, slight asymmetry in the fins). I think Skervesen is a terrible design brand because they have no design consistency, besides riffing on other people's shapes.
> 
> If you show me some random guitar and ask me if it's a Skervesen, I think, well, does it have a bunch off odd "edgy" bits for no reason, and is it popular with some terrible color scheme like it's designed by a jr high student? Or is it nice looking, but terribly generic (like when they actually get a customer with some taste, like that Nebulung)? Can't really say they established themselves with anything uniquely them. I even think Kiesel does a better job ( ::gasp:: )


I think you are making some really bold statements here. The swan I guess is not for everyone, the same way the Atlantean is not for everybody. The Raptor, the Nebelung, the Kallisti are unique takes on the superstrat which I really like. The Shoggie is their take on Strandberg, which is almost identical. Padalka has some super standard designs and some really crazy ones (which I dont like - especially the strandberg style ones). As for Dylan's designs, his takes on the superstrat, V, LP, Mockingbird etc are almost identical to the originals.
Also their finishes are beautiful, or better, they are implemented beautifully. The guitars play very well (for the vast majority of the builds) and as a shop you ll never have the issues you have with Dylan, so I m really thinking try one with them.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

Blytheryn said:


> It’s stated either in the intro email or on the website somewhere that the basic guitar or regardless of shape costs like 2k GBP. 7’s cost more. Hardware is added on top and then any blingage you decided to tack on.



Yes. It is. Somewhere. Few things here though:

1) was it always 2k in pounds?

2) what exactly were the final end prices of Cimmerians throughout the years? How much has inflation really set into the price?

3) the initial pricing quote seemed off that Dylan provided. Barnes said in an email later to me that even the humblest of any Daemoness build would not come in around 3700 USD.

4) I ultimately think that this part of the business process could use some tightening up/improvement by Daemoness.


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> 4) I ultimately think that this part of yhe business process could use some tightening up/improvement by Daemoness.


All parts of his business process need improvement. His statement was welcome but he did not address most of the issues: The road map to reduce the delays, the communication issues, what happened with the OP's guitar etc/ These are the very important questions that need answers if he wants people to regain trust on him.
He pretty much said, it is what it is and those affected by delays can opt for a refund, which again is very welcome and I m glad he said so, but imo it is not enough for people to regain their trust on him.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

mehegama said:


> All parts of his business process need improvement. His statement was welcome but he did not address most of the issues: The road map to reduce the delays, the communication issues, what happened with the OP's guitar etc/ These are the very important questions that need answers if he wants people to regain trust on him.
> He pretty much said, it is what it is and those affected by delays can opt for a refund, which again is very welcome and I m glad he said so, but imo it is not enough for people to regain their trust on him.



Yeah I have to admit I was being nice but also brief as this thread unfortunately is taking up alot of my time these days which is not good but given what I have invested in the build I feel overly compelled...

I'd like to get some sort of resolution here too. This whole process did not go well unfortunately but I have not heard from Dylan yet. 

Que @IbanezDaemon for another nudge to Dylan to get back to me? (insert nervous smile emoticon here)


----------



## mehegama

Bettershredthandead said:


> Yeah I have to admit I was being nice but also brief as this thread unfortunately is taking up alot of my time these days which is not good but given what I have invested in the build I feel overly compelled...
> 
> I'd like to get some sort of resolution here too. This whole process did not go well unfortunately but I have not heard from Dylan yet.
> 
> Que @IbanezDaemon for another nudge to Dylan to get back to me? (insert nervous smile emoticon here)


Seems I m the only one to have heard from him so far. Try the gmail again


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> I think you are making some really bold statements here. The swan I guess is not for everyone, the same way the Atlantean is not for everybody. The Raptor, the Nebelung, the Kallisti are unique takes on the superstrat which I really like. The Shoggie is their take on Strandberg, which is almost identical. Padalka has some super standard designs and some really crazy ones (which I dont like - especially the strandberg style ones). As for Dylan's designs, his takes on the superstrat, V, LP, Mockingbird etc are almost identical to the originals.
> Also their finishes are beautiful, or better, they are implemented beautifully. The guitars play very well (for the vast majority of the builds) and as a shop you ll never have the issues you have with Dylan, so I m really thinking try one with them.



You say the raptor is a unique take on a superstrat.
You say the shoggie is almost identical to a strandberg.
You say Dylan's Valkenbyrd is nearly identical to a Mockingbird.
You say Dylan's Chronicler is nearly identical to a Les Paul.

I mean... there's no point in talking these points with you any further. You might as well be telling me that the sky looks brown to you.


----------



## Blytheryn

Bettershredthandead said:


> Yes. It is. Somewhere. Few things here though:
> 
> 1) was it always 2k in pounds?
> 
> 2) what exactly were the final end prices of Cimmerians throughout the years? How much has inflation really set into the price?
> 
> 3) the initial pricing quote seemed off that Dylan provided. Barnes said in an email later to me that even the humblest of any Daemoness build would not come in around 3700 USD.
> 
> 4) I ultimately think that this part of the business process could use some tightening up/improvement by Daemoness.



1. I believe so? At least it’s been that for as long as I can remember.
2. I’ve got no way of knowing that. @IbanezDaemon would know because he’s got a few. Also these are going to vary wildly based on spec?


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> All parts of his business process need improvement. His statement was welcome but he did not address most of the issues: The road map to reduce the delays, the communication issues, what happened with the OP's guitar etc/ These are the very important questions that need answers if he wants people to regain trust on him.
> He pretty much said, it is what it is and those affected by delays can opt for a refund, which again is very welcome and I m glad he said so, but imo it is not enough for people to regain their trust on him.



Cancel culture at its finest. "not enough for people to regain their trust on him" -- it's like you and two other guys.


----------



## Blytheryn

narad said:


> Cancel culture at its finest. "not enough for people to regain their trust on him" -- it's like you and two other guys.



This entire thread is basically 3 dudes enforcing cancelling Dylan over the course of 65+ pages


----------



## diagrammatiks

I'm just going to put my head down and get these builds out.

ok dude from blackwater. how's that working out.


----------



## narad

Blytheryn said:


> This entire thread is basically 3 dudes enforcing cancelling Dylan over the course of 65+ pages



Yea, "I choose not to acknowledge the words 'As a guide, ..., but please be aware that this may vary depending on the complexity of our upcoming builds', and now I'm not happy so you should restructure your entire business to my liking.


----------



## Bettershredthandead

So I just googled the term 'cancel culture' as I have actually never heard the term used before until I actually saw it here on this thread as I'm not into trendy word crap. And I am 99.9% sure that both you guys are actually applying it incorrectly to this situation. 

Its more for like SJW stuff and or viewing someone as 'evil'. As far as I know, I don't think any of these two things apply to Dylan. Something has just gone wrong with the brand from a business end with Daemoness which has been acknowledged even though there were alleged attempts to try and improve upon this situation. And so now a resolution or path forward has been proposed by Dylan.

No one's trying to 'cancel out' Dylan. That's just absurd.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> You say the raptor is a unique take on a superstrat.
> You say the shoggie is almost identical to a strandberg.
> You say Dylan's Valkenbyrd is nearly identical to a Mockingbird.
> You say Dylan's Chronicler is nearly identical to a Les Paul.
> 
> I mean... there's no point in talking these points with you any further. You might as well be telling me that the sky looks brown to you.


i m going to tell you something, and i really hope it will not destroy your worldview: Your opinions are not the universal truth. In particular noone gives 3 flying fucks about your or my opinions. We are just some rando nerds in the internet exchanging opinions. If you cannot engage yourself in conversation and exchange opinions in a nice way with someone that happens to disagree with you, that is not something that will help you in life in general. 

Yes I love the raptor's curves especially the carved one. The chronicler has the standard LP curves, only he shaved some wood on the curves, but other than that it is a standard single cut. The Valkenbyrd is almost identical with just a slightly longer upper horn and a small split on the bottom. Even the name should have given you some hints. As for the shoggie, here is a strandberg:


and here is a Shoggie:



If you don't find these two almost identical, i think you should go and check your eyes.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> i m going to tell you something, and i really hope it will not destroy your worldview: Your opinions are not the universal truth. In particular noone gives 3 flying fucks about your or my opinions. We are just some rando nerds in the internet exchanging opinions. If you cannot engage yourself in conversation and exchange opinions in a nice way with someone that happens to disagree with you, that is not something that will help you in life in general.
> 
> Yes I love the raptor's curves especially the carved one. The chronicler has the standard LP curves, only he shaved some wood on the curves, but other than that it is a standard single cut. The Valkenbyrd is almost identical with just a slightly longer upper horn and a small split on the bottom. Even the name should have given you some hints. As for the shoggie, here is a strandberg:
> View attachment 83574
> 
> and here is a Shoggie:
> View attachment 83575
> 
> 
> If you don't find these two almost identical, i think you should go and check your eyes.



God, every time someone posts a Shoggie I regret my decision to get LASIK surgery.. I mean, the lower bout looks like a god damn Shrek ear. 

Yea, I mean, these are not at all identical. As I said before, there is no point discussing this further with you. I will let the readers of the thread decide if they think a shoggie is almost identical to a strandberg, and in doing so, whether your opinion on these things has any merit at all.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Cancel culture at its finest. "not enough for people to regain their trust on him" -- it's like you and two other guys.


I think you need to recheck the definition of cancel culture. Dylan himself told me my guitar is not coming anytime soon and admitted he cannot deliver the timelines he himself set. And ,to his honour, he offers a way out via refunds.
Regarding trust, it is my opinion that if he does not give explanations about all the issues with the OP's guitar, the road map on how to get out of this situation and the ghosting, people will have issues trusting him with their money. You may disagree with this but trying to create enemies, accusing me for cancel culture and demonizing others is not a helpful tactic at all.



narad said:


> God, every time someone posts a Shoggie I regret my decision to get LASIK surgery.. I mean, the lower bout looks like a god damn Shrek ear.
> 
> Yea, I mean, these are not at all identical. As I said before, there is no point discussing this further with you. I will let the readers of the thread decide if they think a shoggie is almost identical to a strandberg, and in doing so, whether your opinion on these things has any merit at all.


You seem always to seek some kind of self confirmation in this forum. It does not matter if 10 people agree with you and 2 with me or the other way around. It's not going to change anything in the real world

As for the Shoggie, what can i say.. the other day you said that 60 months is approximately 30, even though as a bad approximation so I m not surprised that you find these two not identical at all..


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> Regarding trust, it is my opinion that if he does not give explanations about all the issues with the OP's guitar, the road map on how to get out of this situation and the ghosting, people will have issues trusting him with their money. You may disagree with this but trying to create enemies, accusing me for cancel culture and demonizing others is not a helpful tactic at all.



If you cannot trust Dylan unless he addresses the OP's flawed build then I would suggest you contact Skerv and ask them to explain what happened to over a dozen of their builds with flaws. In fact the original black machine copy that got people interested in Skerv in the first place was rats nest of faults and issues. That is of course if you have an interest in buying one.

Honestly I think the best way forward is to get your refund and move on. No answer he gives regarding that build will be satisfactory and likely raise more questions as a result. We haven't seen other guitars with flaws on that level from Dylan, and personally, considering it is one guitar. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the building front and accept that it's a duffer that of course shouldn't have been sent out. But it's one guitar. Skerv have shat out plenty of shit planks in their time.

The probability of you getting a bad guitar from Dylan right now is pretty damn low, single digit low, perhaps even less than 1% (I do not know how many guitars he has finished over the last decade). But you have to decide whether it's worth the wait. I understand it's frustrating not knowing a specific timescale. But that is the nature of his work unfortunately, since the builds vary so much and the 20 odd guitars in front of yours won't have finalised specs. Just like some have decided to go simpler with their builds I am sure there are a few individuals out there who have gone the complete opposite route and now want decked out art pieces, and that could easily double the build time for those instruments.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> As for the Shoggie, what can i say.. the other day you said that 60 months is approximately 30, even though as a bad approximation so I m not surprised that you find these two not identical at all..



That's just language, and how the term is used in science. Oh the fun to have in this thread. It's easy to prove -- if you accept that 31 is an approximation of 30, then what about 32? If 32, what about 33? If not 33, what about 32.5? It is obvious there's no binary point where something becomes "not an approximation", they only become continually worse approximations as they move away from the real value.


----------



## StevenC

mehegama said:


> i m going to tell you something, and i really hope it will not destroy your worldview: Your opinions are not the universal truth. In particular noone gives 3 flying fucks about your or my opinions. We are just some rando nerds in the internet exchanging opinions. If you cannot engage yourself in conversation and exchange opinions in a nice way with someone that happens to disagree with you, that is not something that will help you in life in general.
> 
> Yes I love the raptor's curves especially the carved one. The chronicler has the standard LP curves, only he shaved some wood on the curves, but other than that it is a standard single cut. The Valkenbyrd is almost identical with just a slightly longer upper horn and a small split on the bottom. Even the name should have given you some hints. As for the shoggie, here is a strandberg:
> View attachment 83574
> 
> and here is a Shoggie:
> View attachment 83575
> 
> 
> If you don't find these two almost identical, i think you should go and check your eyes.


Are you reading this forum in braille?


----------



## mehegama

SamSam said:


> If you cannot trust Dylan unless he addresses the OP's flawed build then I would suggest you contact Skerv and ask them to explain what happened to over a dozen of their builds with flaws. In fact the original black machine copy that got people interested in Skerv in the first place was rats nest of faults and issues. That is of course if you have an interest in buying one.
> 
> Honestly I think the best way forward is to get your refund and move on. No answer he gives regarding that build will be satisfactory and likely raise more questions as a result. We haven't seen other guitars with flaws on that level from Dylan, and personally, considering it is one guitar. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on the building front and accept that it's a duffer that of course shouldn't have been sent out. But it's one guitar. Skerv have shat out plenty of shit planks in their time.
> 
> The probability of you getting a bad guitar from Dylan right now is pretty damn low, single digit low, perhaps even less than 1% (I do not know how many guitars he has finished over the last decade). But you have to decide whether it's worth the wait. I understand it's frustrating not knowing a specific timescale. But that is the nature of his work unfortunately, since the builds vary so much and the 20 odd guitars in front of yours won't have finalised specs. Just like some have decided to go simpler with their builds I am sure there are a few individuals out there who have gone the complete opposite route and now want decked out art pieces, and that could easily double the build time for those instruments.


I agree. Regarding my spot in Daemoness, Dylan confirmed that my guitar is not n his schedule of work for the next 12 months so I decided to get a refund. i wish to Dylan and all the guys waiting all the best.
Regarding Skervesen, yes I m aware about the earlier years but lately you ll hardly find any issues. The good thing is that even if you do, they ll take care of it and have excellent communication. It is very different in style than Dylan's but they have some really nice models.


narad said:


> That's just language, and how the term is used in science. Oh the fun to have in this thread. It's easy to prove -- if you accept that 31 is an approximation of 30, then what about 32? If 32, what about 33? If not 33, what about 32.5? It is obvious there's no binary point where something becomes "not an approximation", they only become continually worse approximations as they move away from the real value.


In the eyes of consumer law 60 is definitely not 30. You amaze me some times how far you can reach in order to defend the situation with Dylan. Do you have a stake at his business? This is a clear case which he admitted himself.


StevenC said:


> Are you reading this forum in braille?


we established it before i think, that your humour and myself are not very compatible. Do you see 2 very different guitars too?


----------



## Flappydoodle

I've read his statement a couple of times and I still feel it's the right decision for me to cancel my order. I do not want an open-ended waiting time from a company I have very low trust in. Some people might be ok with that, but it's not for me.

I also have some doubts that the guitar will ever materialise because of the financial viability of the operation itself. IMO it won't survive the approximately 5 years it will take to clear that queue.

There were promises to improve communication, but what exactly is going to change about the way things are done? 4 months of lockdown and still no replies to emails. And now he's going to be singlehandedly building more guitars AND improving communications? How?

You also don't need to "reestablish my understanding of the logistics and communication for the first time in years" to know that you should reply when customers contact you, rofl. Even just a courtesy "I have received your message" and a yearly email blast would be better than ghosting.

The plan is basically close the order book and finish the existing queue... which isn't much of a plan. The order book shouldn't have been open anyway, and he was already working on the queue. So that is also not a sign of anything actually changing.

The waiting time is not the only issue here. I could accept a long wait, if that estimate can be trusted and if I had confidence that the company will survive that long. The problem for me is that I have now learned that "approximately 30 months" was not a realistic approximation when I placed my downpayment. Whether they simply lied about the wait, or were incredibly optimistic, or totally incompetent at estimating the build time, I am not sure. Either way, joining a queue of undetermined length and duration is not for me.

I will update about the refund process and how that goes.


----------



## mehegama

Flappydoodle said:


> I've read his statement a couple of times and I still feel it's the right decision for me to cancel my order. I do not want an open-ended waiting time from a company I have very low trust in. Some people might be ok with that, but it's not for me.
> 
> I also have some doubts that the guitar will ever materialise because of the financial viability of the operation itself. IMO it won't survive the approximately 5 years it will take to clear that queue.
> 
> There were promises to improve communication, but what exactly is going to change about the way things are done? 4 months of lockdown and still no replies to emails. And now he's going to be singlehandedly building more guitars AND improving communications? How?
> 
> You also don't need to "reestablish my understanding of the logistics and communication for the first time in years" to know that you should reply when customers contact you, rofl. Even just a courtesy "I have received your message" and a yearly email blast would be better than ghosting.
> 
> The plan is basically close the order book and finish the existing queue... which isn't much of a plan. The order book shouldn't have been open anyway, and he was already working on the queue. So that is also not a sign of anything actually changing.
> 
> The waiting time is not the only issue here. I could accept a long wait, if that estimate can be trusted and if I had confidence that the company will survive that long. The problem for me is that I have now learned that "approximately 30 months" was not a realistic approximation when I placed my downpayment. Whether they simply lied about the wait, or were incredibly optimistic, or totally incompetent at estimating the build time, I am not sure. Either way, joining a queue of undetermined length and duration is not for me.
> 
> I will update about the refund process and how that goes.


I could not express my thoughts in a better way. When i talked about trust that's my view as well.


----------



## Lorcan Ward

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm just going to put my head down and get these builds out.
> 
> ok dude from blackwater. how's that working out.



It hasn’t work for Aaron at all that’s for sure! He was constantly struggling to stay on top of building and communicating from the get go. It’s a shame cause he was a fantastic builder with sharp eye for detail and improving on designs but he’s dropped off the face of the earth now. I checked his socials and it’s been 3 1/2 - 4 years since he was active.

Anyone who ever says they are going to finish the current waiting list and just make instocks have always been luthiers with big problems and slow output throughout their history so they never make it to that point. I’d be confident Dylan could get to that point and would even be more productive building his own ideas rather than customers. That’s a few years away for certain though so we will have to see then.


----------



## SamSam

The problem with having so much hype is that you will receive a huge amount of correspondence. We do not know how much. Its could be 10 emails a day, it could be 30, maybe more, maybe less.

What we do know is that his guitars are in high demand. He's a one man operation. Let's says he works 10 hours a day. If he spends two hours a day on correspondence/social media, that leave eight hours to build. How much can a luthier do in eight hours? I don't really know. I have no personal experience in that field.

What I can tell you is that he goes into a lot of detail in build emails and that they aren't written up in ten minutes. Maybe he needs someone to set up a quote calculator for the base specs and then slap on about 1.5k as soon as someone requests art and 1k as soon as someone requests custom inlay.

The price might be slightly off but I bet it'll scare off time wasters. And you have bear in mind that he has probably wasted 100s of hours on those in the past as well when sporting through quotes.

Ideally, I suppose the best outcome would be that enough people get refunds for him to have a. backlog of say, 3 to 5 years. Obviously money comes in on completion keeping him going and after that he can build off the shelf models to sell (which in the past have sold for a fair bit more than customs).


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## xzacx

mehegama said:


> we established it before i think, that your humour and myself are not very compatible. *Do you see 2 very different guitars too?*



I see one guitar that looks like a beautiful example of modern industrial design, and one that looks like a Skervesen.


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## mehegama

xzacx said:


> I see one guitar that looks like a beautiful example of modern industrial design, and one that looks like a Skervesen.


I hate the strandberg design. If you ask me which of the two i hate less I would say the Skervesen is more appealing to the eye.


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## xzacx

mehegama said:


> I hate the strandberg design. If you ask me which of the two i hate less I would say the Skervesen is more appealing to the eye.


Haven’t you spent the last couple pages arguing that they’re the same?


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## mehegama

xzacx said:


> Haven’t you spent the last couple pages arguing that they’re the same?


yes the design is the same. Where did i say i like it?


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## SamSam

mehegama said:


> yes the design is the same. Where did i say i like it?



What he is implying is that if they are the same, then you would like / dislike both equally. Because they are both the same.


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## mehegama

SamSam said:


> What he is implying is that if they are the same, then you would like / dislike both equally. Because they are both the same.


I see but all i said was that the shoggie was portrayed by one or two people here as an abomination while it is almost identical with the strandberg.


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## mehegama

I can confirm that i was fully refunded by Dylan. I would like to thank him for offering a solution to those affected by the huge delays and wish him the best with his future ventures. I hope he also addresses all these issues regarding trust and communication.


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## SamSam

mehegama said:


> I can confirm that i was fully refunded by Dylan. I would like to thank him for offering a solution to those affected by the huge delays and wish him the best with his future ventures. I hope he also addresses all these issues regarding trust and communication.



I'm really glad you managed to get a satisfactory resolution (even though it probably doesn't lessen the annoyance of the time that has elapsed).

Let's hope everything works out for dylan as well, it would be a shame to lose a great builder and I am sure that even if you would never consider buying one from him. I am sure you'll enjoy seeing them like the rest of us!


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## mehegama

SamSam said:


> I'm really glad you managed to get a satisfactory resolution (even though it probably doesn't lessen the annoyance of the time that has elapsed).
> 
> Let's hope everything works out for dylan as well, it would be a shame to lose a great builder and I am sure that even if you would never consider buying one from him. I am sure you'll enjoy seeing them like the rest of us!


I m happy it was resolved amicably with mutual understanding. I really want to see him taking these issues seriously as no matter what I am a fan of his artistic work. I still believe he will be better off offering concepts on existing guitars rather than full builds.


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## c7spheres

- It's almost funny (almost) how Daemoness and some of these other companies lately are making The Ed Roman's and Patrick Sims of the world look like they really had their shit together, and they were a hassel to deal with to say the least. 
- I'd have lost my head a long time ago if I had a build on the books.


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## narad

mehegama said:


> In the eyes of consumer law 60 is definitely not 30. You amaze me some times how far you can reach in order to defend the situation with Dylan. Do you have a stake at his business? This is a clear case which he admitted himself.



60 is not 30 in the eyes of consumer law or anyone. But we're talking about what it means to approximate a number. It has no relevance to the law or to Dylan or anything, it's just English, which I'm guessing is not your native language. That's fine, but realize I'm making a linguistic point here. It doesn't defend Dylan, it just points out you're wrong to act like 60 is 100% not an approximation of 30 and 31 is a 99% approximation of 30, etc.



c7spheres said:


> - It's almost funny (almost) how Daemoness and some of these other companies lately are making The Ed Roman's and Patrick Sims of the world look like they really had their shit together, and they were a hassel to deal with to say the least.



I'm pretty sure Sims basically took some people's money AND guitars/guitar bodies and never returned either, so I'm not sure there's any way in which not meeting your estimates makes him look like an upstanding luthier.


----------



## c7spheres

narad said:


> 60 is not 30 in the eyes of consumer law or anyone. But we're talking about what it means to approximate a number. It has no relevance to the law or to Dylan or anything, it's just English, which I'm guessing is not your native language. That's fine, but realize I'm making a linguistic point here. It doesn't defend Dylan, it just points out you're wrong to act like 60 is 100% not an approximation of 30 and 31 is a 99% approximation of 30, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Sims basically took some people's money AND guitars/guitar bodies and never returned either, so I'm not sure there's any way in which not meeting your estimates makes him look like an upstanding luthier.


 Oh damn, I didn't realize he actually did that. I thought it was all just long wait times and then he went out of business so that why people didnt' get their money back. That sucks.


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## mehegama

narad said:


> 60 is not 30 in the eyes of consumer law or anyone. But we're talking about what it means to approximate a number. It has no relevance to the law or to Dylan or anything, it's just English, which I'm guessing is not your native language. That's fine, but realize I'm making a linguistic point here. It doesn't defend Dylan, it just points out you're wrong to act like 60 is 100% not an approximation of 30 and 31 is a 99% approximation of 30, etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure Sims basically took some people's money AND guitars/guitar bodies and never returned either, so I'm not sure there's any way in which not meeting your estimates makes him look like an upstanding luthier.


an approximation means something close to the actual real value. It has nothing to do with the language, it s all about the context. And in this context 60 is for sure not an approximation for 30.

All these are a bit philosophical though, as Dylan honoured his statement and refunded me.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> an approximation means something close to the actual real value. It has nothing to do with the language, it s all about the context. And in this context 60 is for sure not an approximation for 30.



But "close" subject to a function of distance, which is not a discrete value, but a continuous one. Hence, 60 weeks being a _bad_ approximation for 30 weeks in this context.


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## Flappydoodle

SamSam said:


> The problem with having so much hype is that you will receive a huge amount of correspondence. We do not know how much. Its could be 10 emails a day, it could be 30, maybe more, maybe less.
> 
> What we do know is that his guitars are in high demand. He's a one man operation. Let's says he works 10 hours a day. If he spends two hours a day on correspondence/social media, that leave eight hours to build. How much can a luthier do in eight hours? I don't really know. I have no personal experience in that field.
> 
> What I can tell you is that he goes into a lot of detail in build emails and that they aren't written up in ten minutes. Maybe he needs someone to set up a quote calculator for the base specs and then slap on about 1.5k as soon as someone requests art and 1k as soon as someone requests custom inlay.
> 
> The price might be slightly off but I bet it'll scare off time wasters. And you have bear in mind that he has probably wasted 100s of hours on those in the past as well when sporting through quotes.
> 
> Ideally, I suppose the best outcome would be that enough people get refunds for him to have a. backlog of say, 3 to 5 years. Obviously money comes in on completion keeping him going and after that he can build off the shelf models to sell (which in the past have sold for a fair bit more than customs).



I agree entirely. That's why I have concerns about the financial viability of the whole operation, as it currently operates.

I don't think you can really offer affordable, fully custom guitars while being a single-man operation. IMO, the idea of affordable needs to die. Dylan should start the entry pricing at £4K and go from there. And when he has themed stock builds ready, they should be £6K+. Because it's a cool guitar, but you can also have it NOW, which adds significant value.


----------



## IbanezDaemon

Bettershredthandead said:


> Que @IbanezDaemon for another nudge to Dylan to get back to me? (insert nervous smile emoticon here)



He really should get back to you at some point soon going by the statement he sent. If he doesn't shoot me a PM. All I can do is send your details to him via email or FB.


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## StevenC

mehegama said:


> an approximation means something close to the actual real value. It has nothing to do with the language, it s all about the context. And in this context 60 is for sure not an approximation for 30.
> 
> All these are a bit philosophical though, as Dylan honoured his statement and refunded me.


If someone quotes 1 month and it takes 2, was that a bad approximation?


----------



## Flappydoodle

Just to confirm, received full downpayment refund into my account. 

Thanks to those in this thread who have helped to clarify and move things alone such as @IbanezDaemon 

Thank you to Dylan for the refund. This will be best for everyone, and hopefully shortens the queue for you guys who are still waiting. 

I will leave the thread now, since no longer a customer. Cheers.


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## narad

Flappydoodle said:


> Just to confirm, received full downpayment refund into my account.
> 
> Thanks to those in this thread who have helped to clarify and move things alone such as @IbanezDaemon
> 
> Thank you to Dylan for the refund. This will be best for everyone, and hopefully shortens the queue for you guys who are still waiting.
> 
> I will leave the thread now, since no longer a customer. Cheers.



Lol this is a NGD thread -- none of us should be here.


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## mehegama

StevenC said:


> If someone quotes 1 month and it takes 2, was that a bad approximation?


it depends. Everything in this world works in relative terms. If i need some kind of therapy then this delay might be lethal. For a guitar is ok I guess. Again some people can wait for 10 years and still be ok but on average i think 60 months is not at all approximate 30.
I think this thread has gone from a NGD to soon discussing general relativity.. Since my issues were resolved I m off, and wishing Dylan and all the guys in the queue the best.


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## StevenC

mehegama said:


> it depends. Everything in this world works in relative terms. If i need some kind of therapy then this delay might be lethal. For a guitar is ok I guess. Again some people can wait for 10 years and still be ok but on average i think 60 months is not at all approximate 30.
> I think this thread has gone from a NGD to soon discussing general relativity.. Since my issues were resolved I m off, and wishing Dylan and all the guys in the queue the best.


Ah, you're doing this on purpose.


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## Jonathan20022

StevenC said:


> Ah, you're doing this on purpose.



I thought this was painfully obvious 

He's at the 20 - something month wait (Can't remember exact number), is raising concerns when his own build hasn't crossed the threshold, wants some kind of commitment that his guitar will be ready in the next year when it hasn't even reached the timber/lock in phase of the build.

mehegama always just wanted his refund, because his scenario for receiving an instrument was impossible. Anything short of exactly what he wanted, or a full refund would have been unacceptable coming from Dylan's communications to him. Nothing wrong with admitting it, but he played both sides of the fence, aka still wanting his guitar in a reasonable amount of time knowing full well that the average wait time was well above that expectation of happening.


----------



## mehegama

Jonathan20022 said:


> I thought this was painfully obvious
> 
> He's at the 20 - something month wait (Can't remember exact number), is raising concerns when his own build hasn't crossed the threshold, wants some kind of commitment that his guitar will be ready in the next year when it hasn't even reached the timber/lock in phase of the build.
> 
> mehegama always just wanted his refund, because his scenario for receiving an instrument was impossible. Anything short of exactly what he wanted, or a full refund would have been unacceptable coming from Dylan's communications to him. Nothing wrong with admitting it, but he played both sides of the fence, aka still wanting his guitar in a reasonable amount of time knowing full well that the average wait time was well above that expectation of happening.


ehm what are you talking about?? I m currently on 29 months and all i did was to raise concerns that my build would be very delayed. Also said that I got no answers from Dylan when I asked to update me on my build.
I said from the begining that I want the guitat but under the quoted times they gave me. Dylan himself said he is rescheduling his work for the next 12 months and that my guitar is not in that. Also told me he cannot guarrantee even this rescheduling timelines. He never said when my guitar will be in schedule, please do not spread misinformation. and i asked for a refund because I did not want to wait. I m sure others with similar wait times like me, will keep their spot.
I don’t understand where is the controversy here.
Just because I expressed some opinions on top of the above situation, it does not mean i had an agenta or anything. That’s ridiculous. I was talking about myself and my opinions


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## Jonathan20022

mehegama said:


> ehm what are you talking about?? I m currently on 29 months and all i did was to raise concerns that my build would be very delayed. Also said that I got no answers from Dylan when I asked to update me on my build.
> I said from the begining that I want the guitat but under the quoted times they gave me. Dylan himself said he is rescheduling his work for the next 12 months and that my guitar is not in that. Also told me he cannot guarrantee even this rescheduling timelines. He never said when my guitar will be in schedule, please do not spread misinformation. and i asked for a refund because I did not want to wait. I m sure others with similar wait times like me, will keep their spot.
> I don’t understand where is the controversy here.
> Just because I expressed some opinions on top of the above situation, it does not mean i had an agenta or anything. That’s ridiculous. I was talking about myself and my opinions



No one is saying your concerns were unjustified or that there was any sort of agenda, it was just completely obvious to me and others that your desired outcome was a refund. Several people asked you about this and you said you still would like to get your guitar, but your timeline doesn't line up to realistic expectations for the current build process + pandemic delays. It's not misinformation, you've said multiple times that your guitar isn't going to be ready within the next year (12 Months) so due to that you don't want to have your money held up and wait for the guitar. My point is that no solution other than a refund would have been a satisfactory solution to you, and this was painfully obvious 20 - 30 pages ago.

It's like ordering a burrito for lunch, and you're told it'll be ready for pickup in 15 minutes. Then you show up and it's not ready, and they apologize for any delays telling you that they are working through their queue and your food will be out asap. If in your head, you give them a request of, "I'd like my burrito in the next 60 seconds or I'm requesting a refund". The restaurant will probably just look at you, apologize, then provide the refund, because your timeline expectation does not align with the reality of their process and delays.

There's nothing wrong with requesting a refund, the mexican restaurant was late, and you definitely should have had the food. But where the restaurant expects some kind of tolerance for a delay you give them an ultimatum, the only amicable solution is to provide a refund and let it go.


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one is saying your concerns were unjustified or that there was any sort of agenda, it was just completely obvious to me and others that your desired outcome was a refund. Several people asked you about this and you said you still would like to get your guitar, but your timeline doesn't line up to realistic expectations for the current build process + pandemic delays. It's not misinformation, you've said multiple times that your guitar isn't going to be ready within the next year (12 Months) so due to that you don't want to have your money held up and wait for the guitar. My point is that no solution other than a refund would have been a satisfactory solution to you, and this was painfully obvious 20 - 30 pages ago.
> 
> It's like ordering a burrito for lunch, and you're told it'll be ready for pickup in 15 minutes. Then you show up and it's not ready, and they apologize for any delays telling you that they are working through their queue and your food will be out asap. If in your head, you give them a request of, "I'd like my burrito in the next 60 seconds or I'm requesting a refund". The restaurant will probably just look at you, apologize, then provide the refund, because your timeline expectation does not align with the reality of their process and delays.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with requesting a refund, the mexican restaurant was late, and you definitely should have had the food. But where the restaurant expects some kind of tolerance for a delay you give them an ultimatum, the only amicable solution is to provide a refund and let it go.



It's okay. There are other options like instant noodles, or bread. In many ways bread is as good of a food as a burrito. It also has calories, and you can chew it. And you don't have to wait 15 minutes for bread, and there's never any delays with bread. In fact, many burritos are downright distasteful. Chicken and pork in the same burrito? Who would ever like that? I don't. And I don't understand why anyone would order a burrito without guac. If not for guac, you can just put rice and chicken on bread and call it a day, it costs like a dollar, and you don't have to wait.

Still, I'm sure those who can wait for forever for the burrito and who can justify such a high cost will be happy. For me though, bread it is.

Now about that burrito place, I have some ideas that will need to be implemented for it to be successful...


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## mbardu

mehegama said:


> ehm what are you talking about?? I m currently on 29 months and all i did was to raise concerns that my build would be very delayed. Also said that I got no answers from Dylan when I asked to update me on my build.
> I said from the begining that I want the guitat but under the quoted times they gave me. Dylan himself said he is rescheduling his work for the next 12 months and that my guitar is not in that. Also told me he cannot guarrantee even this rescheduling timelines. He never said when my guitar will be in schedule, please do not spread misinformation. and i asked for a refund because I did not want to wait. I m sure others with similar wait times like me, will keep their spot.
> I don’t understand where is the controversy here.
> Just because I expressed some opinions on top of the above situation, it does not mean i had an agenta or anything. That’s ridiculous. I was talking about myself and my opinions



@mehegama, just my 2 cents but you should leave the discussion at that.
Not sure who you're replying to, although I can at least guess among a few people I have on "ignore" that they're not going to back down from their perspective to consider someone else's point of view. If after 29/30 months, you're still not even on the list that Dylan would start to look at in the first 12 months of when he starts to look back at putting his house in order, I don't think you could realistically expect to get a guitar within at least the next 24/30 months. Just look at people who ordered in 2016 and still have had zero news. At this stage, since it would be double what was quoted, I don't know how anyone reasonable could see an issue in preferring to get a refund. The thing here is that some people here are not going to fall into that "reasonable" category and would instead cut absolutely any slack to Dylan over all his buyers just by virtue of some semantics or small caveat emptors in his initial quote. That's their choice, and i don't think the two sides can be reconciled.
At least it looks like unlike those people, the person that actually matters (Dylan) _does _agree that it was not reasonable so it's good to hear that the refunds are being issued amicably. That way you and the couple of other posters can move on. That's the "least bad" resolution at this stage.

At least I'm sure everyone is looking forward to seeing what Dylan will do in a few years if/once he's done with the current queue and he can start to put his personal artistic vision into his own concept builds.


----------



## Jonathan20022

mbardu said:


> @mehegama, just my 2 cents but you should leave the discussion at that.
> Not sure who you're replying to, although I can at least guess among a few people I have on "ignore" that they're not going to back down from their perspective to consider someone else's point of view. If after 29/30 months, you're still not even on the list that Dylan would start to look at in the first 12 months of when he starts to look back at putting his house in order, I don't think you could realistically expect to get a guitar within at least the next 24/30 months. Just look at people who ordered in 2016 and still have had zero news. At this stage, since it would be double what was quoted, I don't know how anyone reasonable could see an issue in preferring to get a refund. The thing here is that some people here are not going to fall into that "reasonable" category and would instead cut absolutely any slack to Dylan over all his buyers just by virtue of some semantics or small caveat emptors in his initial quote. That's their choice, and i don't think the two sides can be reconciled.
> At least it looks like unlike those people, the person that actually matters (Dylan) _does _agree that it was not reasonable so it's good to hear that the refunds are being issued amicably. That way you and the couple of other posters can move on. That's the "least bad" resolution at this stage.
> 
> At least I'm sure everyone is looking forward to seeing what Dylan will do in a few years if/once he's done with the current queue and he can start to put his personal artistic vision into his own concept builds.





Jonathan20022 said:


> *No one is saying your concerns were unjustified* ... *There's nothing wrong with requesting a refund*, the mexican restaurant was *late*, and you *definitely should have had the food*. But where the restaurant expects some kind of tolerance for a delay you give them an ultimatum, *the only amicable solution is to provide a refund and let it go.*



The hilarious part about this, is the made up obsessed "unreasonable" Daemoness fanboys is entirely fictional and if Senor mbardu didn't ignore/block people he'd have the context required to realize that no one is faulting @mehegama for getting a refund and he's entirely within his rights to do so since it was offered by Dylan.

@narad isn't being unreasonable in his stances either, he has different tolerances and so do other folks on the waitlist. The discussion was brought into the hypothetical internet courtroom, and the legality of pursuing a non-refundable deposit was discussed based on the fine print provided by the manufacturer. Pretending I, or anyone took the hard stance that people *should not *get their money back under any circumstances is yet another example of poor comprehension of comments and intentions behind those comments, yet another mirage boogeyman.


----------



## mehegama

Jonathan20022 said:


> No one is saying your concerns were unjustified or that there was any sort of agenda, it was just completely obvious to me and others that your desired outcome was a refund. Several people asked you about this and you said you still would like to get your guitar, but your timeline doesn't line up to realistic expectations for the current build process + pandemic delays. It's not misinformation, you've said multiple times that your guitar isn't going to be ready within the next year (12 Months) so due to that you don't want to have your money held up and wait for the guitar. My point is that no solution other than a refund would have been a satisfactory solution to you, and this was painfully obvious 20 - 30 pages ago.
> 
> It's like ordering a burrito for lunch, and you're told it'll be ready for pickup in 15 minutes. Then you show up and it's not ready, and they apologize for any delays telling you that they are working through their queue and your food will be out asap. If in your head, you give them a request of, "I'd like my burrito in the next 60 seconds or I'm requesting a refund". The restaurant will probably just look at you, apologize, then provide the refund, because your timeline expectation does not align with the reality of their process and delays.
> 
> There's nothing wrong with requesting a refund, the mexican restaurant was late, and you definitely should have had the food. But where the restaurant expects some kind of tolerance for a delay you give them an ultimatum, the only amicable solution is to provide a refund and let it go.


The refund was obviously the best solution because I was doing the math and it was obvious that there was no realistic way that I would get the guitar on the quoted times plus some reasonable delay. Dylan just confirmed that. Your buritto analogy is not very good as the correct analogy here would have been if they told you that they are doing everything they can and the buritto will be ready asap, but don’ expext it before a weeks time. That s the correct analogy here and this the relative aspect of it and the context i talked about before.


----------



## narad

mehegama said:


> The refund was obviously the best solution because I was doing the math and it was obvious that there was no realistic way that I would get the guitar on the quoted times plus some reasonable delay. Dylan just confirmed that. Your buritto analogy is not very good as the correct analogy here would have been if they told you that they are doing everything they can and the buritto will be ready asap, but don’ expext it before a weeks time. That s the correct analogy here and this the relative aspect of it and the context i talked about before.



Unless You think Dylan will take 672 times his original estimate to deliver a guitar (so literally two millennia), I'm pretty sure Jonathan's analogy was a lot closer to reality.


----------



## mehegama

narad said:


> Unless You think Dylan will take 672 times his original estimate to deliver a guitar (so literally two millennia), I'm pretty sure Jonathan's analogy was a lot closer to reality.


my point was that the wait time he offered was way more than a reasonable person could accept. We obviously do not agree on what a reasonable wait is so let’s not run in circles here. In any case my issue was resolved amicably so no reason to waste time on philosophical issues. 
Again i wish to Dylan and everyone in the queue all the best


----------



## SamSam

mehegama said:


> my point was that the wait time he offered was way more than a reasonable person could accept. We obviously do not agree on what a reasonable wait is so let’s not run in circles here. In any case my issue was resolved amicably so no reason to waste time on philosophical issues.
> Again i wish to Dylan and everyone in the queue all the best



I am glad that we have concluded that a reasonable time lies somewhere between 2x and 672x.

Come on guys, things are being resolved now. People on the list can either get their refund or wait if they wish. We don't need to argue about the semantics. 

Let us instead bicker about which Kiesels are the ugliest and fight for the used prestige cause.


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## StevenC

SamSam said:


> Let us instead bicker about which Kiesels are the ugliest


Is it all of them?


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## SamSam

StevenC said:


> Is it all of them?



The vast majority of them. With the potential for Kiesel Edition TM* ruination across the board.


----------

