# Gay Marriage Legalised in New York



## chronocide (Jul 24, 2011)

I was surprised it wasn't already. Then was saddened to read that only about 1 in 10 Americans has that right. Still, 1 in 10 more than the UK.

New York says 'I do' to gay marriage - in pictures | World news | guardian.co.uk

Gay marriage: big win, slow progress | Dan Kennedy | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

Has there been a bit of a song and dance on the news about this, I presume?


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## BigPhi84 (Jul 24, 2011)

I've heard a lot about it recently from my fraternity brothers (I'm in a Music Fraternity, and as such, there are a lot more openly gay brothers than most fraternities. I know you're probably thinking that this is a little more of my twisted humor, but this is the truth! ) I think it's great news.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 24, 2011)

Cool! One down, how many to go?


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## Demiurge (Jul 24, 2011)

chronocide said:


> New York says 'I do' to gay marriage - in pictures | World news | guardian.co.uk



 It's an abomination



















That some people were in suits in those photos. It has been so damn hot lately. 

But seriously, good for the people of NY.


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## Explorer (Jul 24, 2011)

The next inevitable step: homosexual marriages for heterosexuals. 

Or, are those particular religious people who are against this just fearful of following their own temptations when they fight against this being legal for everyone else? 

In any case, although this doesn't affect my heterosexual inclinations in any way, I'm glad and grateful that all my adult friends in New York now have the ability to make this choice for themselves, instead of that choice being made by people imposing their religious views upon others.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 24, 2011)

There isn't much on the news about it...



...because it happened a month ago.


Step in the right direction, I say.


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## Waelstrum (Jul 25, 2011)

So, now that the institution of marriage has been destroyed in New York, I'm guessing that there will be anarchy throughout the state where one can't tell the difference between animal and man. What's that? It's been legal for a month and everything else is the same as it was? Well I guess that shows how good fundamentalists are at predicting the end of society.


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## liamh (Jul 25, 2011)

Awesome!


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## Edika (Jul 25, 2011)

You see the happiness, love and relief in the photos at those links and you ask your self "why are people so close minded and deny them this moment?".


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## liamh (Jul 25, 2011)

the third picture on the second link, n'aaaaaaaaaw


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## ry_z (Jul 25, 2011)

Just lovely.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 25, 2011)

It is still funny to see a Maira marries another Maira hahaah (first pic)


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## Goatchrist (Jul 25, 2011)

Yes! Great news! Now it's time that stupid intolerant people stop crying when homosexual people kiss in public, exaggerating fools!


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## TheDjentlman (Jul 25, 2011)

Great news!


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 25, 2011)

This is fantastic news! 

The picture of the two old men is precious...

...hell, all of them are precious!


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## Sang-Drax (Jul 25, 2011)

Always great to see so many civilized people put together.

Proud to be a member of ss.org


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 25, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> The picture of the two old men is precious...


 





Cant tell if trolling, or just can't distinguish between old men and old lesbians...


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jul 25, 2011)

And Jesus wept..


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 25, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Cant tell if trolling, or just can't distinguish between old men and old lesbians...



Not trolling, but it was intended to be slightly ironic. 

I am genuinely happy for these people though.


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## Watty (Jul 25, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And Jesus wept..


 
...At least until he realized that the main reason (IMHO) that gay marriage had been restricted in the religious community - lack of reproductive ability - was no longer an issue and therefore had no place being perpetuated as a dogma.

If you're serious, please consider reading your holy book in its entirety. Report back when you are thoroughly disgusted...

If it was a joke...well...please consider my addition.

Edit: Unsure re: dogma's status as a noun...


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 25, 2011)

watsonb2 said:


> ...At least until he realized that the main reason (IMHO) that gay marriage had been restricted in the religious community - lack of reproductive ability - was no longer an issue and therefore had no place being perpetuated as a dogma.
> 
> If you're serious, please consider reading your holy book in its entirety. Report back when you are thoroughly disgusted...
> 
> ...


 
I'm pretty sure DrakkarTyrannis is happy about this news .

Oh, and "dogma" is a noun, and only a noun. Not sure what you'd be unsure about.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jul 25, 2011)

Good for them.

I don't know why they need laws to let them marry, though, there shouldn't be the laws against it in the first place. Why care that two guys or two girls want to get married?


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 25, 2011)

watsonb2 said:


> ...



Drakks a gay satanist just so you have a lil background info.

and I am the only one safe from the rape.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 25, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Drakks a gay satanist just so you have a lil background info.
> 
> and I am the only one safe from the rape.



That's what you think.


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## The Somberlain (Jul 25, 2011)

dragonblade629 said:


> Good for them.
> 
> I don't know why they need laws to let them marry, though, there shouldn't be the laws against it in the first place. Why care that two guys or two girls want to get married?



Because the cultural conventions of a 3000 year old society shall set morality for all henchforth. Cue scene of Alex reading the bible in A Clockwork Orange: &#x202a;A Clockwork Orange, reading the bible&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube

Anyways, good for them. I don't get how this is a problem


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## Customisbetter (Jul 25, 2011)

Fourth picture made me Bawww.

51 fucking years!? That is insane and beautiful.


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## Nimgoble (Jul 25, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And Jesus wept..



...because he just can't help himself at weddings.


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## daemon barbeque (Jul 25, 2011)

I am still thinking about Small details about the two Maira's marriage.
Is one going to take other's Surname? If yes, there will be two Mairas with the same surname in the marriage, causing problems LOL. 
Post comes after 3 days of marriage...
_Hello Ma'm, are Maira Gonzales?
_ No, I am her wife..Ehm, yes actually I am her


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## chronocide (Jul 25, 2011)

The Somberlain said:


> Because the cultural conventions of a 3000 year old society shall set morality for all henchforth. Cue scene of Alex reading the bible in A Clockwork Orange: &#x202a;A Clockwork Orange, reading the bible&#x202c;&rlm; - YouTube
> 
> Anyways, good for them. I don't get how this is a problem



Monogamous heterosexuality as a forced social norm is about 10,000 years old, give or take, far predating organised religion  [/pernickitism] Folks are of course right in that its origin is totally down to breeding and the need for lots of children and paternal certainty in a farming society.

I think the photo of the two old women is really rather sweet.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 25, 2011)

Making strides toward life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness I see. God bless 'Merica. I mean that slightly less sarcastically than before.


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## thedarkoceans (Jul 25, 2011)

glad to hear that sevenstringers are open minded too.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 25, 2011)

To the purist guitarist we should all be crucified w the homosexuals.


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## Dvaienat (Jul 25, 2011)

And about time it was legalised too. Gay people marrying causes no harm to others, therefore how should it be illegal? It is good to see America slowly growing out of its stiff-upper-lip Christian traditions.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 25, 2011)

thedarkoceans said:


> glad to hear that sevenstringers are open minded too.



Never.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 25, 2011)

NatG said:


> It is good to see America slowly growing out of its stiff-upper-lip Christian traditions.


 
Maybe it will spread over to the UK soon, too .


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## chronocide (Jul 25, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Maybe it will spread over to the UK soon, too .



Well, we're certainly not getting rid of those Lords Spiritual in a hurry, nor the head of state/head of church undisputed championship crown. But at least the national churches are far more moderate than the Christian lobbyists you cats have to deal with.

Still, no gay marriages here for a while, not since the take it and like it civil-partnership compromise.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 25, 2011)

I've always been against all "state recognized" marriage. I just don't see marriage of any kind being something that should require a legal recognition. It's a religious or spiritual bond between anyone or any group who wishes, on their own free will of coarse, to engage in the sanctum(if thats the right word).

Being raised in the rural midwest I have a very stereotypical view of a family (man, woman, and children, live happily ever after).

But for me to expect everyone to follow my template of normalcy would be quite shallow and unphilosophical on my part.

Hell, if a couple dudes wanna rip each other up why the hell should/would I care to judge. Most of us have enough normal daily grind things to worry about anyway. 

It just always bugs me when the state or feds get over-involved in peoples personal lives.


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## chronocide (Jul 25, 2011)

As it happens, I agree. I don't think there's any need for any state sponsored living arrangements with tax benefits and whatnot, but as long as they exist, they should exist equally for everyone, in all types of relationships. Monogamous, polyamorous, heterosexual, homosexual etc etc


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## Explorer (Jul 25, 2011)

TRENCHLORD said:


> I've always been against all "state recognized" marriage.





chronocide said:


> As it happens, I agree. I don't think there's any need for any state sponsored living arrangements with tax benefits and whatnot, but as long as they exist, they should exist equally for everyone, in all types of relationships.



Chronocide hits the nail on the head with this. 

Very often, when I hear the "government shouldn't be involved in marriages" thing, it seems that the only time certain friends of mine bring it up is in discussions like this one... but they don't discuss it when it comes to heterosexual marriage. 

As Chronocide notes, as long as the government *is* involved, and as long as no one is actually workingn to abolish government recognition of marriage, such marriage should be available to all adults, even if those adults don't conform to another group's definition of marriage.

(Remember, miscegenation used to be a crime. How dare those darkies marry whhite women!)

I don't necessarily see marriage contracts (at the heart, that's what marriage is) being recognized by the government as being a bad thing. If such a contract is available, though, then any consenting adult should be able to enter into one with other consenting adults, and not just the consenting adults that a church or society views as correct.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 26, 2011)

chronocide said:


> As it happens, I agree. I don't think there's any need for any state sponsored living arrangements with tax benefits and whatnot, but as long as they exist, they should exist equally for everyone, in all types of relationships. Monogamous, polyamorous, heterosexual, homosexual etc etc


 

Yeah there's that dirty word, TAXES. Anytime cash is involved it will be a struggle to reach an agreement on how many can converge in a group (as with polygamy) and how many unions one may claim at a given time and ect., ect.. I have no idea what is on the books now in Utah, but it's bound to be confusing when uncle sam is involved.
Another great reason to adopt the "fair tax" or simalar plan.


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## Demiurge (Jul 26, 2011)

Legal recognition of marriage goes beyond tax purposes; personally, I have not seen any tax bennefit from getting married (kids, however, change that). The ability to have one's spouse (therefore making the definition of spouse matter) as an insured on one's health insurance is huge. Spousal status as next-of-kin also matters if one dies without a will. Those aren't exactly the sexiest benefits, but they matter.

So, perhaps there should be government recognition of marriage, but certainly not government regulation of it, because that's when things get ugly.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 26, 2011)

TRENCHLORD said:


> I've always been against all "state recognized" marriage. I just don't see marriage of any kind being something that should require a legal recognition. It's a religious or spiritual bond between anyone or any group who wishes, on their own free will of coarse, to engage in the sanctum(if thats the right word).
> 
> Being raised in the rural midwest I have a very stereotypical view of a family (man, woman, and children, live happily ever after).
> 
> ...


 
If the gov't cannot control it, it cannot be allowed to go on!


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## chronocide (Jul 26, 2011)

Demiurge said:


> Legal recognition of marriage goes beyond tax purposes; personally, I have not seen any tax bennefit from getting married (kids, however, change that). The ability to have one's spouse (therefore making the definition of spouse matter) as an insured on one's health insurance is huge. Spousal status as next-of-kin also matters if one dies without a will. Those aren't exactly the sexiest benefits, but they matter.
> 
> So, perhaps there should be government recognition of marriage, but certainly not government regulation of it, because that's when things get ugly.



It used to be that under Scots common law, most of the above didn't require marriage, if you've lived together and behaved as man and wife then you _were_ man and wife, and unless someone wanted to contest where your estate went in the event of your death then it'd just go to your partner anyway. Also health insurance obviously isn't really relevant here with our NHS, might be if you take out private healthcare, I guess. But there were tax changes and differences in how the welfare state applied to you when you got a "normal" legal marriage. That ended in 2006, though.

I think that system, if extended a bit, would be pretty good, really. If you live together a certain amount of time and are in a relationship (irrespective of the sexuality of it), then you are considered married in all circumstances when it would matter. If you want the religious ceremony or a bit of paper you should be able to get it, but it shouldn't be some legally enshrined thing. I mean, the idea of a contract to declare your love I find it bit bizarre anyway, and after all, its origin is in making sure the right parent got the right livestock into the deal.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 26, 2011)

Great! Now if California could get its shit together.....


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## GuitaristOfHell (Jul 26, 2011)

about fucking time . I thought the law being against gay marriage was unconstitutional.


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## Bribanez (Jul 26, 2011)

I'm against gay marrige. Unless both chicks are RRRRRREALLY hot!


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## Nimgoble (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I'm against gay marrige. Unless both chicks are RRRRRREALLY hot!


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 26, 2011)




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## troyguitar (Jul 26, 2011)

I would guess this might have had something to do with it even being considered:

http://gaymarriage.procon.org/sourcefiles/love-counts-gay-marriage-new-york-benefits.pdf

summary: They think that the state will make money from it.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 26, 2011)

^ Isn't money behind most of the decisions legislators make?

Whether or not there'll be enough money to carry out the decision... Whether or not they've been sufficiently bribed to change their mind on the decision... Whether or not said decision will generate money... It's always about the $...


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## tacotiklah (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I'm against gay marrige. Unless both chicks are RRRRRREALLY hot!



Im really hoping that you are joking.


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I'm against gay marrige. Unless both chicks are RRRRRREALLY hot!



If you're joking, it's in really bad taste. If not, you're a bigot. 
Make your choice. 

On topic: So glad this is finally gaining some ground, bigotry is still rampant and entrenched in this country, but we're slowly beating it back.


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## Bribanez (Jul 26, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> If you're joking, it's in really bad taste. If not, you're a bigot.
> Make your choice.


 

Really? You have got to lighten up. Sorry if I touched a nerve.


And no, I don't support gay marrige. Proudly.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> Really? You have got to lighten up. Sorry if I touched a nerve.


This is PC&E, not really the place for off color humor.

Try Off-Topic.


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## Razzy (Jul 26, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> If you're joking, it's in really bad taste. If not, you're a bigot.
> Make your choice.
> 
> On topic: So glad this is finally gaining some ground, bigotry is still rampant and entrenched in this country, but we're slowly beating it back.





Bribanez said:


> Really? You have got to lighten up. Sorry if I touched a nerve.



I'm gay and found it funny, personally.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> And no, I don't support gay marrige. Proudly.



Why don't you support gay marriage and why are you proud of that fact?


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## synrgy (Jul 26, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Why don't you support gay marriage and why are you proud of that fact?


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## Razzy (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> And no, I don't support gay marrige. Proudly.



I found this edit way less funny.


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 26, 2011)

Guitarman700 said:


> *If you're joking, it's in really bad taste. If not, you're a bigot. *
> Make your choice.





Bribanez said:


> Really? You have got to lighten up. Sorry if I touched a nerve.
> 
> 
> *And no, I don't support gay marrige. Proudly.*


Looks like both.


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## chronocide (Jul 26, 2011)

synrgy said:


>



I'm _really_ looking forward to a response, though.


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## Razzy (Jul 26, 2011)

chronocide said:


> I'm _really_ looking forward to a response, though.



+1


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## Bribanez (Jul 26, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Why don't you support gay marriage and why are you proud of that fact?


 
I don't support gay marrige because I believe marrige should be between a man and a woman. And because I believe Jesus Christ died for me. And you.

I say "proudly" becuase so many people are so quick to call me a bigot because I don't believe what they believe.


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## chronocide (Jul 26, 2011)

Still not sure whether it's trolling or not.


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## Razzy (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I don't support gay marrige because I believe marrige should be between a man and a woman. And because I believe Jesus Christ died for me. And you.
> 
> I say "proudly" becuase so many people are so quick to call me a bigot because I don't believe what they believe.



Cool, religion. I'm officially staying out of this conversation.


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 26, 2011)

He doesn't support gay marriage because he's been indoctrinated into a school of belief that teaches that people different than the "Norm" are evil, and should be oppressed and have less rights than people who believe what he does.

That's assuming you're using the bible as a reference for your belief that gay marriage is wrong, and there's really not any other argument, other than "I'm a bigot" but few have the balls to come out and admit that because it invalidates their arguments.
I really don't care about a 2000 year old man who got himself crucified because he was a mental case, and then had his life spun into religion by greedy, self serving people. that should have no bearing on modern events.


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## synrgy (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I don't support gay marrige because I believe marrige should be between a man and a woman. And because I believe Jesus Christ died for me. And you.
> 
> I say "proudly" becuase so many people are so quick to call me a bigot because I don't believe what they believe.



So, just out of curiosity, how do you feel about marriage between non-Christians?


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## highlordmugfug (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I don't support gay marrige because I believe marrige should be between a man and a woman. And because I believe Jesus Christ died for me. And you.
> 
> I say "proudly" becuase so many people are so quick to call me a bigot because I don't believe what they believe.


Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You want to deny rights to people based on your religious beliefs: You're a bigot.

EDIT:



Gay Marriage Legalised... 07-26-2011 03:31 PM LAME
Nice try 

If not being a bigot is lame, then consider me...




this guy




Your mind=blown.


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## synrgy (Jul 26, 2011)

highlordmugfug said:


> Bigotry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia




I was JUST about to post that. You're a .


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 26, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I don't support gay marrige because I believe marrige should be between a man and a woman. And because I believe Jesus Christ died for me. And you.
> 
> I say "proudly" becuase so many people are so quick to call me a bigot because I don't believe what they believe.



You are trolling. I know this for a fact.


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## Razzy (Jul 26, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> You are trolling. I know this for a fact.



How do you know he's trolling?


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 26, 2011)

Razzy said:


> How do you know he's trolling?



A quick visit to his profile tells me everything I need to know.


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## Bribanez (Jul 26, 2011)

#1; I'm not sure what trolling even means so I'm pretty sure I'm not doing it.

#2; How do I feel about non christians getting married? That's just stupid.

#3; I thought this forum was going to be a bunch of cool guitar players all talking about guitars, amps, music, etc. I didn't realize it was a bunch of kids sitting home after school while all the cool kids are out having fun.

But hey, I don't believe what you all believe so I'm the bad guy. I made a silly little joke that evern Razzy, who says he's gay, thought was funny. I have no problem with gay people. I just believe marriage is between a man and a woman. 

Did I come in here to this thread and start bashing people because they believe gay marriage is ok? No. Did I personally attack anyone becuase of what they believe? No.

So you guys can go ahead and call me a troll and a bigot if that's what makes you feel good about yourselves.

I guess I expected to much from an internet forum. I hAve a bunch of friends in real life who love to talk guitars and gear. I thought this place would be the same. I seem to be wrong. I even got jumped on because I said I don't like road worn guitars and thought the idea was cheesy.


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 26, 2011)

This is the P&CE forum. You can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. 
Your definition of marriage promotes bigotry, hate and oppression of people different than you, all based on a two millennium old book written by people who thought the world was flat and the sun orbited the earth. If you're going to perpetuate ignorance and discrimination, than hell yes I have a problem with that. And I'll gladly talk gear with you, in the gear forums. Not here, here is where we debate and discuss world events. Like I said, you can't handle a debate, stay out of the subforum.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 26, 2011)

Don't feed the troll!


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## Dvaienat (Jul 26, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Maybe it will spread over to the UK soon, too .


 
Hopefully it will! Though from what I've observed the UK is much more advanced than the US in terms of abandoning Christianity.

The very fact that gay marriage is not legal shows that gays are regarded as second class citizens - having less rights than heterosexuals. I find this and any kind of inequality in society appaling. I'm not sure whether he is trolling or not but 'Bribanez' further up the page is promoting exactly this kind of inequality due to religion.


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 26, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Don't feed the troll!


OM NOM NOM
Yeah, I've said my piece.


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## Explorer (Jul 26, 2011)

Sorry, but I've rearranged a few repeated points so they're together, and easier to respond to. I don't believe I've taken anything out of context.



Bribanez said:


> I thought this forum was going to be a bunch of cool guitar players all talking about guitars, amps, music, etc. I didn't realize it was a bunch of kids sitting home after school while all the cool kids are out having fun.
> 
> I guess I expected to much from an internet forum. I hAve a bunch of friends in real life who love to talk guitars and gear. I thought this place would be the same. I seem to be wrong.



It actually *is* a bunch of cool guitar players who talk about guitars, amps, music, etc. You went into one of the _et cetera_ areas. You may not have noticed wandering into the areas marked Off-Topic and Politics & Current Events. 

However, I like the sour grapes attitude when you didn't like how accepting the forum is towards everyone except those who espouse bigoted attitudes. Suddenly all the gear discussion fades in importance, and you slammed everyone using some grade school/high school paradigm because bigotry gets called. That's pretty funny for those of us who have watched our kids go through that phase. *laugh*

Anyway, the idea that bigotry isn't accepted makes this place pretty cool in my book. Maybe you should find a different website better fitting your idea of cool.



Bribanez said:


> Did I personally attack anyone becuase of what they believe? No.
> 
> So you guys can go ahead and call me a troll and a bigot if that's what makes you feel good about yourselves.
> 
> I even got jumped on because I said I don't like road worn guitars and thought the idea was cheesy.



Did you attack anyone because of who they are, if only in the general sense? Yes.

Your last point there is not accurate. You're toning it down to gain sympathy, but have to lie to do so. In that thread, you actually said:



Bribanez said:


> Road Worn Finished Guitars.....are *freakin gay* if you ask me.


 
Okay, so you think gay = cheesy or stupid. It's the casual bigotry, which you inserted into a few threads without ever noticing, which is catching everyone's attention. 

You've used gay as an insult, and have no clue that could be offensive. You've even defended it. 

I get it. You believe that it's okay to enforce one group's religious beliefs on another, kind of like the Christians and the Romans... although the Romans were wrong to do it, and the Christians are correct in doing so now. "Treat others as you wish to be treated," at least in terms of not forcing another to live by one's own beliefs, is just bullshit, regardless of the source. What kind of fool would have come up with that whopper, right?

Epic fail.


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## Fred the Shred (Jul 26, 2011)

Hi, I'm Fred and I'm a christian. I've been helping gay, lesbian and transgender rights associations since I was a teen, and I find it unacceptable that "laws" crafted to ensure there was enough cannon fodder out there still have defenders in this day and age.

Bigotry is not, won't be, and never was, an acceptable position, regardless of how an institution twists the facts to make it so when it's convenient, regardless of whatever religion or politic belief you may have. It is uncivilized, medieval at best, and downright ridiculous to use sexual preference as a way of detecting the "nefarious sinner that will be condemned". I seriously doubt any God has time in his agenda to be worrying about hormonal and personality differentiation, unless it's a really nasty closet case. Have a nice day!


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jul 26, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> That's what you think.



I'm attracted to men...so yeah Cheese is very much safe


And since the thread has turned to the supposed "bigot"..I just want to say that I think it's a little unfair for everyone to gang up on the guy just because his personal view isn't the same as everyone else's. If he's against it, he's more than welcomed to his opinion. Maybe he'll change his mind, maybe others will change their minds to his way of thought. It's rather unfair to crash the guy about his religion and everything else just because most people here have the same mindset. Whereas obviously I don't agree with him on some levels, I just hate to see someone with the outside opinion get ganged up on.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 26, 2011)

Warning: Theological rant ahead. Intention is to prove what the bible actual says regarding bigotry, not bore you all into tears.


Im both bisexual AND a biblical scholar, having studied it for 16 years. I can safely say that bigotry is seriously outlawed by the bible. In fact, from my studies, its one of the worst sins you can commit. While my crap memory prohibits my recollection of exact passages, a few key points Ive come across in my reading:

- "He who says that he loves God, yet hates his brother is a liar, and God is not in (with) him"
-Jesus stated that everyone is our brothers and sisters, and that we are all Gods children
-The bible states that the penalty for liars and false prophets is to be cast into the lake of fire to burn forevermore.


-So lets logically put that altogether:
Condemning LGBT people (who are our brothers and sisters) and denying them equal rights+ encouraging people to do the same = bigotry = being a liar when proclaiming christianity + being a false prophet when telling people that God hates gays=your soul burning in hell.


Call me crazy, but it seems like its the holy rollers who are in the most danger of damnation. Perhaps its the closeted people that misquote it and run off half cocked spewing crap they dont understand because they have a 4th grade reading comprehension who are the real gay bashers. Just saying.....


----------



## Explorer (Jul 27, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And since the thread has turned to the supposed "bigot"..I just want to say that I think it's a little unfair for everyone to gang up on the guy just because his personal view isn't the same as everyone else's.
> 
> ...I just hate to see someone with the outside opinion get ganged up on.



I don't mind outside opinions. However, I also don't like people using insulting epithets, and then defending such. 

Any Klansman is obviously free to join the forum, and to talk about guitars and other such stuff. As soon as they start using phrases like "n***er rich" and "n***er loving fans of AAL," then it's not about that person's personal viewpoint being different, but about their being intolerant and bigoted.

And at that point, when everyone who hates intolerance calls that person on their being intolerant and bigoted, I'm not sure I'd call that hateful behavior as "just another opinion." You can say that your personal religious views don't allow for gay marriage... but to then say that something is "gay" to mean stupid or cheesy is a different thing.

Anyway, the rules of the forum don't allow that kind of attacking behavior, or the hypothetical example of such which I posted earlier. If that makes it unfriendly to certain intolerant viewpoints... I'm all for it.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 27, 2011)

I can't believe you're all taking him seriously, you're being trolled! I have pointed this out numerous times.


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## Fred the Shred (Jul 27, 2011)

Trolled or not, I am not speaking my mind to address his own religious view - it is about a much larger problem, namely the manipulation of religious text to use it as a justification for one's discrimination. You can find gay people disgusting for all I care, as long as you don't mistake your personal view with society's greater good and understand these people don't deserve the shit they often take based on their sexuality.

Would I have sex with a man? No, I'm not attracted to men. Does that make me shun gay men because of their "difference"? No, for obvious reasons. Are they the same as me when it comes to rights and privileges? Yes, they are. No distorted view of moral or any god's will is justification to the things I saw regarding LGBT people, and that is something that really disgusts me, that's all.

Also, mistaking a civil marriage contract for an imposition of said rule (which isn't written anywhere) on religions' own marriage rites is so silly I can't even begin to see where anyone could possibly get that from in any of the bills - we had our share of that in Portugal prior to legalizing gay marriage over here, and it was nothing short of saddening.


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## Waelstrum (Jul 27, 2011)

Fred the Shred said:


> Trolled or not...
> 
> ...Also, mistaking a civil marriage contract for an imposition of said rule (which isn't written anywhere) on religions' own marriage rites is so silly I can't even begin to see where anyone could possibly get that from in any of the bills - we had our share of that in Portugal prior to legalizing gay marriage over here, and it was nothing short of saddening.



This, so much this. I don't think it's been said enough, because some people don't seem to have heard. If two people (of any demographic) get married it only affects those two people and their friends and family. It doesn't mean that you no longer love your wife and/or husband, or affect that relationship in any way (unless you let as a nocebo).


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## Overtone (Jul 27, 2011)

Ahhh at last, one step closer to man snake marriage.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I can't believe you're all taking him seriously, you're being trolled! I have pointed this out numerous times.



Iono, hes in one of those christiancore bands I keep seeing on craigslist every time I look.

I recognize that name xD 

I'm sad, I kept coming back to this thread because the jokes and sarcasm were hilarious and it turned to people jumping this guy. While I think hes a horrible person for thinking the way he does he really didn't do or say anything overly horrible to warrant 2 pages of people attacking him.

He made a little ignorant joke, I breezed over it called him some things in my head and continued on my way. No need for people to get so butt hurt over people like that.(not you specifically dave)


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## Razzy (Jul 27, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Iono, hes in one of those christiancore bands I keep seeing on craigslist every time I look.
> 
> I recognize that name xD
> 
> ...



I glossed over the joke too, even chuckled a little. It's when he edited the post to say, "I don't support gay marriage and I'm proud of it." that I, and others, had a problem.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jul 27, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I don't support gay marrige because I believe marrige should be between a man and a woman. And because I believe Jesus Christ died for me. And you.
> 
> I say "proudly" becuase so many people are so quick to call me a bigot because I don't believe what they believe.



If you really believed that Jesus was your saviour, I don't, you would know that Jesus renounced all the rules of Levitucus, including the one saying it is a sin for two men to lie together.

You're just a bigot, and what's more you're being an asshat.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2011)

Thing is that wouldn't have been said if not for the prodding. 

and if he doesn't thats nice, again no need to get all butthurt over it. Maybe I have a unique outlook because my sisters gay and my fathers a hardheaded christian who thinks that being christian means you have to condemn gay people, and my stepfather has every single mindset to be a crazy conservative christian but has enough sense not to be. 

I've had to deal with these mentalities all the time, I just know better then to think arguing or bashing the guys beliefs will ever change them. Its pretty much the equivalent of this *I'm offended* trend going on where everyone has to be overly careful of what they say just in case someone gets offended because they might just die from it.


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## Dvaienat (Jul 27, 2011)

dragonblade629 said:


> If you really believed that Jesus was your saviour, I don't, you would know that Jesus renounced all the rules of Levitucus, including the one saying it is a sin for two men to lie together.


Ah, another Biblical contradiction. The Bible is riddled with them. 

I've read the Bible cover to cover and I distinctly remember Jesus saying that all the Old Testament laws were to be kept in place.


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## Razzy (Jul 27, 2011)

NatG said:


> Ah, another Biblical contradiction.
> 
> I've read the Bible cover to cover and I distinctly remember Jesus saying that all the Old Testament laws were to be kept in place.



Yep. 

Luke 16:17

Also, if these people really were Christians that read the bible cover to cover, they should be more worried about people that have led others away from the Lord, and should be doing what Deuteronomy 13:13 tells them to do, rather than spend all their time bitching about gay marriage.


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## Hemi-Powered Drone (Jul 27, 2011)

It was either him or one of the prophets, but there is something pertaining to the laws of the Old Testament not applying. I just can;t find it because I haven't read the bible in four years.


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## Fred the Shred (Jul 27, 2011)

Problem here is that you'll find way too many "laws" that were added to the books to keep population in check, hence the impressive amount of contradictions. Actually, such laws were harshly criticized and defiantly broken by Jesus, from defending David's breaking into the temple and claim the sacred bread to feed his people to stepping unto the temple and healing people on Saturdays. He knew what gross manipulations had been done, and the amount of power games that had taken over the religion.

The thing I don't get about attacks (not just demented acts like those in Norway, but public condemnation of normal traits and the like) based on "protecting" the word of Christ all ignore a number of actions and statements from the man's mouth, all of which based on the principles of equality and reproving discrimination. Oh, well.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2011)

Galatians, Chapter 5 (King James Bible) - ChristianAnswers® WebBible

This?

Its what I was mentioning before, I forget where the rest of it is.


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## Demiurge (Jul 27, 2011)

The notion that a loving god would oppose a union based on love... sounds like a fatal contradiction. 

If real, either Yahweh is a capricious dickhead whose positions do not present a true moral compass for an enlightened society *OR* he cares more about people being good to each other and not destroying his creation than who we're rubbing our winkies and hoo-hoos against. Which one is it going to be?


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## Dvaienat (Jul 27, 2011)

I know... another contradiction is that one aspect of Christianity tells that God loves and accepts all. Yet supposedly he burns good people in hell because they don't believe in him. Seems like an almighty contradiction.

Either he's gonna be good let all into heaven and forgive them provided they are sorry, or he's gonna be evil and send good unbelievers and good followers of other religions to hell, and only let his followers, the ones who worship him, into heaven.


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## thedarkoceans (Jul 27, 2011)

so, it is gay=good religion=bad  i agree!


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## aslsmm (Jul 27, 2011)

Whats funny about this thread, is I am pretty active in my religion. I have alpt of gay friends (by alot i mean 4, married life with kids tends to slow down the social life). I get along with them all just fine and we can have a very progressive and civilized conversation about gay marriage. For some reason i cant have a conversation about same sex marriage with non gay people that are for gay rights. Drakk even said to lighten up on him. And yes he did say a joke poking at gay and lesbian peopl. Drakk told a joke poking at jesus.

Was he pompus in his announcment of his beliefe? Yes.

Are there a lot of pompus post against religion (christianity) on here all the time? Hell yes. 

intolerence comes in alot of forms guys, not just jesus loving bigots against change. 

Having said that, i tend to go against the grain of my religion cause i dont have a anti same sex marriage stance. 

Im not against it.


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 27, 2011)

Not being pompous or bigoted, just pouting out persecution and casual bigotry by a person of faith. Fred and Adam chimed in with non bigoted opinions. Persecution these days seems to stem from fundementalist christians. Funny thing, huh?


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## aslsmm (Jul 27, 2011)

I disagree, persecution seems to stem from ignorant intolerant people. 

I know alot of christians that are more tolerant and kind than alot of agnostic/athiest people i know. 

Thats not to say all christians are more tolerant than other faiths.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jul 27, 2011)

aslsmm said:


> I disagree, persecution seems to stem from ignorant intolerant people.
> 
> I know alot of christians that are more tolerant and kind than alot of agnostic/athiest people i know.
> 
> Thats not to say all christians are more tolerant than other faiths.



This 

There seems to be more militant atheists on this forum than Crosstitutes..mainly because as soon as one shows up the militant atheists run them off. Acceptance goes both ways people. No one has to approve of or like anything. You should be allowed to voice your opinion on it as well even if it isn't the popular opinion. We can agree to disagree on it, discuss it to understand each others side, or call names and act like kids.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 27, 2011)

I think "Crosstitutes" is my new favorite word, just barely edging out "dickture."


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## Dvaienat (Jul 27, 2011)

aslsmm said:


> I disagree, persecution seems to stem from ignorant intolerant people.
> 
> I know alot of christians that are more tolerant and kind than alot of agnostic/athiest people i know.
> 
> Thats not to say all christians are more tolerant than other faiths.


 
I'm an Atheist and rather anti-religious at that, and I am extremely tolerant of Christians and have many Christian friends. I just realise there are many flaws in Christianity which cannot be overlooked.

I enjoy debating with Christian people and I am open to understanding their argument, just aslong as it isn't 'gays are all sinners' or such like that.


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## chronocide (Jul 27, 2011)

Calling out a bigoted statement from a theist does not make one a "militant atheist".


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 27, 2011)

I think Explorer should change his name to 'fuckinguptrollsgoodandproper'.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jul 27, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Calling out a bigoted statement from a theist does not make one a "militant atheist".



I agree


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## chronocide (Jul 27, 2011)

Goodo. I'm yet to see any militantly atheistic behaviour at all on this forum. Though I've seen them remarked upon an awful lot. Every thread that involves faith is full of people damning the endless stream of militant atheists giving everyone who doesn't agree with them a hard time, but they never seem to actually show up.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jul 27, 2011)

chronocide said:


> Goodo. I'm yet to see any militantly atheistic behaviour at all on this forum. Though I've seen them remarked upon an awful lot. Every thread that involves faith is full of people damning the endless stream of militant atheists giving everyone who doesn't agree with them a hard time, but they never seem to actually show up.



Hang around. I've been on here for years. It's not as vicious as it can be, but it's here


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## Guitarman700 (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm not trying to take anyone's rights away.
Militant Christians in this country are. 
Do the math.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 27, 2011)

Drak has a point guys. Dont let my theological rant mislead you, I welcome all informed opinions and views. If an atheist and or other faith tells me that gays and gay marriage is wrong, I would be mad, but would not go on about it. I would actually pity them and chock it up to it being a difference of opinion. Amazing proof of this kind of mutual respect I have for others is the fact that me and Drak are friends, despite him being a satanist and me christian. Neither of us have plans to try to change each others mind on that score knowing that it is a huge exercise in futility and only serves to ruin an otherwise awesome friendship.

While I have no idea why people cant extend that kind of love and tolerance between the straight and LGBT communities, I accept that it will not happen overnight, regardless of how much I bitch and moan about it.


Having said that, people that use christianity as a license to gay bash and discriminate against LGBT people drives me batshit fucking crazy. Reason being (another theological rant ahead. Atheist may turn their attention away at this point.) that Jesus Christ Himself said:
- Love God with all your heart
-Love others as you would yourself. There are no greater commandments than these.

Call me crazy (and normally you would be right)
but when Gods Son tells me what the two biggest commandments are, and that, under no uncertain terms, that anything else supercedes that.......I kinda tend to take that literally and beyond that, makes me seriously wonder why many christians seem to hate LGBT people, or anybody for that matter. 

But this is going OT. None of this should detract from the fact that this should be a happy moment for the people of New York.


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## Dvaienat (Jul 27, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Call me crazy (and normally you would be right)
> but when Gods Son tells me what the two biggest commandments are, and that, under no uncertain terms, that anything else supercedes that.......I kinda tend to take that literally and beyond that, makes me seriously wonder why many christians seem to hate LGBT people, or anybody for that matter.


 
Though there are huge contradictions in the Bible regarding what Jesus actually taught, I agree with what you are trying to say. 

The Christians who attack gay people are following the teachings of Biblical Christianity, which I hate to no extent. 

The good and well informed Christians like you follow the teachings of Jesus 

(whether he is indeed real or not is beside the point)


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## chronocide (Jul 27, 2011)

The world's Christians could do such a better job of following Christ's message if they could stop thinking he was divine. His message is worth listening to, once you get him tied up with his supposed dad it's all too easy to think the psychotic, primitive desert god's message is equally valid.

God hates fags, but Jesus doesn't.


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## Demiurge (Jul 27, 2011)

Let's lighten this up:

The Most Hilariously Effective Signs Supporting Gay Marriage | Happy Place


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## chronocide (Jul 27, 2011)

Some of those are tremendous.

I particularly like "...more pussy than you" and "who do you think designed your wedding dress".


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## ry_z (Jul 27, 2011)

Demiurge said:


> Let's lighten this up:
> 
> The Most Hilariously Effective Signs Supporting Gay Marriage | Happy Place



"If god hates fags, why are we so cute?"


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## Explorer (Jul 27, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This
> 
> There seems to be more militant atheists on this forum than Crosstitutes..mainly because as soon as one shows up the militant atheists run them off. Acceptance goes both ways people. No one has to approve of or like anything. You should be allowed to voice your opinion on it as well even if it isn't the popular opinion.



Actually, no. 

The rules of the forum state that one cannot attack other members, as opposed to stating one's opinion. 

As soon as one starts tossing out epithets like "faggot," "gay" or "n***er" to be meant as insults, it's not an opinion. It's breaking the rules. 

If you feel that this forum would benefit from people tossing out epithets and direclty attacking members through such epithets, then you should approach the mods and the board owner, explaining how tossing out such epithets and attacks should be accepted as just opinions. Explain how they bring up the level of conversation.

However, *to claim that such epithets and behavior are just part and parcel of being a Christian? Fail.* They don't even appear in Scripture... at least, not in the different translations I've read.

I'm happy to consider any evidence to the contrary.


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## vampiregenocide (Jul 27, 2011)

chronocide said:


> The world's Christians could do such a better job of following Christ's message if they could stop thinking he was divine. His message is worth listening to, once you get him tied up with his supposed dad it's all too easy to think the psychotic, primitive desert god's message is equally valid.
> 
> God hates fags, but Jesus doesn't.


 
They've had over a thousand years to realise they don't understand their own religion, it's not going to change anytime soon.


*Referring to the bad Christians here of course*


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 27, 2011)

@Explorer - Where did that come from? Did I miss something?
@Chronocide - It's like school... Not eveyone gets it...


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jul 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> @Explorer - Where did that come from? Did I miss something?
> @Chronocide - It's like school... Not eveyone gets it...



Apparently I missed it too. I think some in this thread are just looking for confrontation.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2011)

aslsmm said:


> I know alot of christians that are more tolerant and kind than alot of agnostic/athiest people i know.



Just a thought, christians are part of the dominant religion in america held on a pedestal and have way more support and leisure about their business. Anything about their faith is defended with vigor etc etc etc.

Atheists are as the lady in florida whos getting attacked by the police said "the most hated *religion* in america" or something to that effect. 

This comic frequently comes to mind 






Because the top panel is viewed as acceptable to most people around america because there's everything wrong with atheism and nothing wrong with theism. and then everyone gets all offended / wonders why atheists are doing shit like in the bottom panel and we get villanized for doing it. People seem to forget that almost every time an atheist mentions being one it creates debate against them, where anyone of faith can preach about their faith until they're blue in the face and no one thinks twice about it. 

Eventually people get tired of the shit and end up defensive ALL THE TIME instead of just being casual about it and the need to defend their beliefs is 1000x the need for any religion to defend theirs. Because EVERY religion is trying to dispute atheists and vice versa, where other religions aren't out to disprove each other.

Not to say that its O.K. to be a douchey atheist (or theist), but its not all that surprising why there would by percentage be more asshole atheists than asshole theists.

Imo anyway.


Also...
THOSE SIGNS OH YOUR GOD


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## aslsmm (Jul 27, 2011)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Just a thought, christians are part of the dominant religion in america held on a pedestal and have way more support and leisure about their business. Anything about their faith is defended with vigor etc etc etc.
> 
> Atheists are as the lady in florida whos getting attacked by the police said "the most hated *religion* in america" or something to that effect.
> 
> ...


 
I may have read this wrong but I dont see how this applies to my points? I thought I was very clear on the fact that religion dosnt breed persecution, people do. if you felt that i was saying "I have no clue why some atheist are intolerant of christianity?" then you didnt understand my remark. 


I too have no clue where that came from.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 27, 2011)

It's contagious... Ppl are beginning to read non-existent messages...


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## Waelstrum (Jul 27, 2011)

Gay sex is sin-sational.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2011)

aslsmm said:


> I too have no clue where that came from.



Can you not quote my entire huge post (pet peeve)

I more just took this opportunity to say it since I keep seeing *oh atheists are usually assholes more often than theists* in recent threads.

Hence me only chopping the part I cared about out of what you said.


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## aslsmm (Jul 27, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> It's contagious... Ppl are beginning to read non-existent messages...


 
it always turns out this way here. At least i didnt get banned or tell anyone to fuck off. haha. 

It seems to me that if was gay, I would be more offended that every pro gay thread, ended with a battle beween why it is or isnt okay to be a dick regaurdless of who you worship, screw, hang out with or support, than I would be if someone made a small minded comment about my right to having rights.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 27, 2011)

Oh my god... Quit fucking crying... Neither side is more of a dick than the other. Both sides seem to feel justified in being a douche just bc they can cite instances of douchebaggery on the other side of the aisle... It's fucking stupid.

EDIT: That was not intended for the above poster. I done been 'd


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## aslsmm (Jul 27, 2011)

never mind.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Jul 27, 2011)

I'm pretty sure every thread in this entire section regardless of what they are about, a lot of times the off topic section as well end up getting massively derailed.

Is the hip thing to do duh, I was kinda sad when this thread went from sarcastic witty comments to silly debate stuff.


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## aslsmm (Jul 27, 2011)

zax thread is zax


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## tacotiklah (Jul 28, 2011)

Yep, those signs are amazing! 

"If you dont like gay people, blame straight people for having babies!"
Win!


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## Miek (Jul 31, 2011)

From the archives: The Gay-Hatin&#8217; Gospel | slacktivist

edit: just for the record this isn't a condemnation of christianity, just an examination of the manipulation of the theology to self serving ends


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## Jakke (Jul 31, 2011)

Gay marriage, why not?

Don't they have the same right to be miserable as the rest of us?


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## Blind Theory (Jul 31, 2011)

Good! One state closer to never having to hear about it again! Just like legalization of Marijuana, I am 100% annoyed of hearing about legalizing gay marriage. Seriously, focus on something else for once you dumb fucking government big wigs. Our debt problems, better schooling in America, working on getting jobs back in the states, stopping drug trafficking, the wars in the middle east, etc, etc, etc.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 31, 2011)

Blind Theory said:


> Good! One state closer to never having to hear about it again! Just like legalization of Marijuana, I am 100% annoyed of hearing about legalizing gay marriage. Seriously, focus on something else for once you dumb fucking government big wigs. Our debt problems, better schooling in America, working on getting jobs back in the states, stopping drug trafficking, the wars in the middle east, etc, etc, etc.



But those are things ppl actually care about... 

Wouldn't that be too much like work?


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## Blind Theory (Jul 31, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> But those are things ppl actually care about...
> 
> Wouldn't that be too much like work?





I suppose it would be now that you mention it! Obama will have to stop playing golf and actually do something. That would be crazy to see!


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## Andromalia (Aug 2, 2011)

> As it happens, I agree. I don't think there's any need for any state sponsored living arrangements with tax benefits and whatnot



Main reason there are some in many countries is plainly to encourage people to have children and is a natalistic policy. Or has been at some time and the law hasn't changed since. (think post WW2)

On the matter of gay marriage, it'd be nice if people could live as they want, what annoys me in the gay/not gay politics and maneuvering is that sexuality defining an individual is wrong to me. I don't care if someone is gay, not gay, abstinent, whatever. To me this is part of the private sphere and shouldn't even come into the making of laws at all.


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## Bribanez (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCKK

My silly, stupid joke seems to have gotten alot of attention. I sincerely didn't mean it to offend anyone. As it seems it did, I apologise to anyone offended. It was not my intention.

As far as stating that I don't support gay marrige, well, forgive my for having an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I guess that makes me a bad person. In reality, I don't really care. Be miserable like the rest of us married folks!

As far as the trolling goes......um...no.....wasn't trolling. Wasn't even familiar with the term until last week. I thought it had something to do with fishing.

Oh yea, I believe in God. How dumb am I??!!


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 2, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> I'm BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCKK
> 
> My silly, stupid joke seems to have gotten alot of attention. I sincerely didn't mean it to offend anyone. As it seems it did, I apologise to anyone offended. It was not my intention.
> 
> ...



I'm guessing the pictures of you in t-shirts saying TEAM SATAN and I KILLED JESUS are meant to be ironic?


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## Jakke (Aug 2, 2011)

Yeah, trolling is originally a fishing term, a troll is also a creature in swedish mythology..


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## Demiurge (Aug 2, 2011)

Bribanez said:


> As far as stating that I don't support gay marrige, well, forgive my for having an opinion that doesn't agree with yours. I guess that makes me a bad person. In reality, I don't really care. Be miserable like the rest of us married folks!



You are more than entitled to your opinion. It just blows when some people use their opinions on certain matters to attempt to influence what other people are or are not allowed to do. I'd prefer to see this less a "legalization" than a "government thankfully decides to no longer butt-in any more" situation, which kind of appeals to both sides of the isle, so to speak.


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## Bribanez (Aug 2, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I'm guessing the pictures of you in t-shirts saying TEAM SATAN and I KILLED JESUS are meant to be ironic?


 

Yea, I know. The Team Satan shirt was a looooong time ago but I still like that pic. The I Killed Jesus shirt is a referance to 1 Timothy 1:15. You, like most people, don't see the rest of the shirt.

Anyway.....how 'bout that NFL, huh?


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## Mexi (Aug 2, 2011)

everybody's gay once in a while


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## Necris (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm very proud of my state for finally legalizing gay marriage, also those signs are the best.


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## tacotiklah (Aug 3, 2011)

Miek said:


> From the archives: The Gay-Hatin&#8217; Gospel | slacktivist
> 
> edit: just for the record this isn't a condemnation of christianity, just an examination of the manipulation of the theology to self serving ends



This is absolutely amazing and is spot on with its explanation of religious homophobia. And the findings that 80% of young christians are being brainwashed with homophobic views is so sad and depressing. Could you imagine the likelihood of some of them being LGBT themselves and having to live with that kind of self repression? I feel very sorry for them......


@Bribanez
I have no problem with having a rational discussion regarding your views on gay marriage. I just ask a few things of you (from one follower of Christ to another)
- Invoking Christs name and synonymizing it with bigotry (which is what denying any group of their legal rights is)
is a sin as well.
-Keep in mind the words of Luke 6:27,28 
-Please have ready any biblical passages that explicitly state that same sex marriage is wrong. (note that Leviticus does NOT prohibit a man marrying another man, and the hebrew translation of its reported ban of gay sex can be interpreted in different ways.) 


As a fellow ambassador of Christ, I ask you not to cast aside your God given logic and sensibilities in favor of a herd mentality. I ask that you take a moment to look at issue objectively and with out any religious bias. Ask yourself honestly, "In my haste to condemn this practice, am I showing the same love, compassion and mercy that Christ has shown me?"


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## TRENCHLORD (Aug 3, 2011)

Mexi said:


> everybody's gay once in a while


 
You mean happy, right?


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## Andromalia (Aug 3, 2011)

He can also mean so drunk you can't tell the difference anymore.


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## hokum (Aug 3, 2011)

> This is the P&CE forum. You can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
> Your definition of marriage promotes bigotry, hate and oppression of people different than you, all based on a two millennium old book written by people who thought the world was flat and the sun orbited the earth. If you're going to perpetuate ignorance and discrimination, than hell yes I have a problem with that. And I'll gladly talk gear with you, in the gear forums. Not here, here is where we debate and discuss world events. Like I said, you can't handle a debate, stay out of the subforum.



Perpetuate ignorance and discrimination, because your post had nothing of that in it. Let he without sin cast the first stone. Remember that proud atheist. Atheist seem convinced that their aren't such a thing as a atheist homophobes. Weird how they are convinced of the sanctity of their fellow atheist.



> The world's Christians could do such a better job of following Christ's message if they could stop thinking he was divine.



Christ's divinity is central to Christianity and anything else would take outside the realms of Christianity.



> If real, either Yahweh is a capricious dickhead whose positions do not present a true moral compass for an enlightened society *OR* he cares more about people being good to each other and not destroying his creation than who we're rubbing our winkies and hoo-hoos against. Which one is it going to be?


Neither. False Dichotomy for the lose. You must impress a lot of atheist with your sharp debating skills (he said with heavy sarcasm)



> He doesn't support gay marriage because he's been indoctrinated into a school of belief that teaches that people different than the "Norm" are evil, and should be oppressed and have less rights than people who believe what he does.
> 
> That's assuming you're using the bible as a reference for your belief that gay marriage is wrong, and there's really not any other argument, other than "I'm a bigot" but few have the balls to come out and admit that because it invalidates their arguments.
> I really don't care about a 2000 year old man who got himself crucified because he was a mental case, and then had his life spun into religion by greedy, self serving people. that should have no bearing on modern events.



For anyone wondering what militant atheism sounds like see above. Proving once and for all that the atheist is not above fundamentalism.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 3, 2011)

hokum said:


> Proving once and for all that the atheist is not above fundamentalism.



Blanket statement much? 

Extremes of any school of thought are stupid, IMO.

It's great to feel strongly about one's beliefs, but self-regulation and the ability to effectively argue about one's beliefs is also required if you want people to take you seriously. Christianity can be defended just as easily as Atheism, given that you provide intelligent, robust, legitimate reasoning for it - the same way you should argue for any school of thought. Nine times out of ten I'd rather talk to a diplomatic Christian than an obstinate Atheist because I know at least with the diplomatic Christian we're far more likely to find value in each other's viewpoint.

No-one is above learning from others and anyone that shuts themself off from doing so is denying themselves an ocean of perception-changing knowledge.


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## tacotiklah (Aug 3, 2011)

Andromalia said:


> He can also mean so drunk you can't tell the difference anymore.



Hell Im sober and I dont bother with differences anymore. If its an unrelated human whose looks and personality click with me, Id put a quarter in for that ride.


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## hokum (Aug 3, 2011)

> Extremes of any school of thought are stupid, IMO.
> 
> It's great to feel strongly about one's beliefs, but self-regulation and the ability to effectively argue about one's beliefs is also required if you want people to take you seriously. Christianity can be defended just as easily as Atheism, given that you provide intelligent, robust, legitimate reasoning for it - the same way you should argue for any school of thought. Nine times out of ten I'd rather talk to a diplomatic Christian than an obstinate Atheist because I know at least with the diplomatic Christian we're far more likely to find value in each other's viewpoint.
> 
> No-one is above learning from others and anyone that shuts themself off from doing so is denying themselves an ocean of perception-changing knowledge.



I agree but if you can find a religion debate anywhere on the internet that does not have some sort of personal comments flinged at each other on them somewhere I'd gladly eat my hat.

The new atheist movement are good at propounding the view that you can't be a atheist and not be a bible basher at the same time. Rather sad actually as it only antagonises people further and does not do a lot to win people over.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 3, 2011)

hokum said:


> I agree but if you can find a religion debate anywhere on the internet that does not have some sort of personal comments flinged at each other on them somewhere I'd gladly eat my hat.
> 
> The new atheist movement are good at propounding the view that you can't be a atheist and not be a bible basher at the same time. Rather sad actually as it only antagonises people further and does not do a lot to win people over.



You seem to be saying that all atheists are the same, which is entirely the same as atheists saying that all Christians are the same. 

The issue I take with the NAM is what you mentioned above - they go about it the wrong way and therefore don't usuaully win anybody over except people who already hold militant atheist beliefs. They believe passionately that religion is evil and I can see where they are coming from but they are trying to pit cold logic (usually backed up with science) against faith which is an emotional necessity. The two cannot be and never have been compatible in debate.


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## chronocide (Aug 3, 2011)

hokum said:


> Atheist seem convinced that their aren't such a thing as a atheist homophobes.



Well, I think that's absolute nonsense. No atheist says other atheists cannot be discriminatory, bigoted people. Only that if they are, it is not _because_ of following the doctrine of a faith.




> Christ's divinity is central to Christianity and anything else would take outside the realms of Christianity.



Good job on spotting the tongue in my cheek.

The essence of what I was saying was true, though. Jesus of Nazareth is an inspirational figure with a good message. At least he is when he's not tarnished by the psychotic god of the old testament as a blood relation. People would do better to pay attention to historical Jesus over Biblical Jesus.


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## Nimgoble (Aug 3, 2011)

ghstofperdition said:


> Hell Im sober and I dont bother with differences anymore. If its an unrelated human whose looks and personality click with me, Id put a quarter in for that ride.



So much this. 



hokum said:


> Perpetuate ignorance and discrimination, because your post had nothing of that in it. Let he without sin cast the first stone. Remember that proud atheist. Atheist seem convinced that their aren't such a thing as a atheist homophobes. Weird how they are convinced of the sanctity of their fellow atheist.



I'm not convinced that there is no such thing as an atheist homophobe. I am, however, convinced that there is no atheist that is a homophobe BECAUSE of their atheism.



> Neither. False Dichotomy for the lose. You must impress a lot of atheist with your sharp debating skills (he said with heavy sarcasm)



Your claims of something being a false dichotomy go a lot further if you provide other possibilities.



> For anyone wondering what militant atheism sounds like see above. Proving once and for all that the atheist is not above fundamentalism.



Incorrect. I'm going to go ahead and argue semantics here. Atheism is the lack of belief in god(s). Anti-theism is what you are describing. Please don't unnecessarily lump all atheists in with anti-theists.



Scar Symmetry said:


> Christianity can be defended just as easily as Atheism, given that you provide intelligent, robust, legitimate reasoning for it - the same way you should argue for any school of thought.



I wholly disagree. Christianity not only claims to have solved the question of whether there is a god or not, they also claim to know which one is the right one. These claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence in their defense, as opposed to the lack of a belief in god(s).



Scar Symmetry said:


> You seem to be saying that all atheists are the same, which is entirely the same as atheists saying that all Christians are the same.



(Speaking to everyone in general):
Technically, we ARE all the same, in that we don't believe in god(s). That's where the relation ends, however. Others like to stereotype atheists by saying that we're miserable, argumentative, angry, etc. This is sloppy, because we aren't all like this and we have no doctrines that say we SHOULD be like this. No belief system to speak of. However, religious people do. And when an atheist stereotypes a religious person according to said person's professed religious doctrines, that isn't sloppy. If you're going to say you're of Religion X, then believe what it's doctrines say or don't be offended when people assume you do. You're the ones being misleading. Not us.

This, of course, is assuming the atheist has an understanding of said religious doctrines. If not, feel free to correct us. But please, do come to a consensus about certain issues. When we hear a bunch of different stances on a certain subject, it can lead us to believe that your doctrines are convoluted pieces of garbage.



> The issue I take with the NAM is what you mentioned above - they go about it the wrong way and therefore don't usuaully win anybody over except people who already hold militant atheist beliefs. They believe passionately that religion is evil and I can see where they are coming from but they are trying to pit cold logic (usually backed up with science) against faith which is an emotional necessity. The two cannot be and never have been compatible in debate.



I disagree, but only because you say that we don't win anybody over who isn't already a militant atheist. Cold logic does, in fact, work. It may not be useful in every case, but I feel it is largely underrated. 

And I'm not sure what you mean by "...against faith which is an emotional necessity.". Could you clarify? Are you saying that faith is an emotional necessity?

As for logic and faith being incompatible: I think we can agree here. But, if that's the case, I don't think faith has any place in debate.


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## Thrashmanzac (Aug 3, 2011)

please mods, close this thread its turned into a " your beliefs suck, mine are right" thread.
im all for free speech and whatever, but this is not the topic to start this debate on.
cheers


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## eaeolian (Aug 3, 2011)

...and, once again, religious strife wins!


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