# Jazz on an 8-string?



## CombatWombat95 (Oct 30, 2011)

Hey I've resently purchased an 8-string LTD, and i have become really interested in playing jazz on it, a la Tosin Abasi. But i have noo idea where to start in terms of the actual playing side. So if anyone has any tips, links or anything like that, please tell me. THX


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## ElRay (Oct 30, 2011)

Are you bent on staying in Standard tuning? If you're willing to switch to all major 3rds, Ralph Patt has a bunch of stuff on his site for 8 string guitars.

Ray


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## celticelk (Oct 30, 2011)

CombatWombat95 said:


> Hey I've resently purchased an 8-string LTD, and i have become really interested in playing jazz on it, a la Tosin Abasi. But i have noo idea where to start in terms of the actual playing side. So if anyone has any tips, links or anything like that, please tell me. THX



For starters, we should establish some definitions: namely, what Tosin does is not jazz. The boundaries of jazz may be somewhat fluid, but it incorporates a specific rhythmic feel (swing) and approach to small-group improvisation, neither of which are features of Tosin's music, which is rhythmically a straight-eighths or sixteenths feel in a variety of meters and which appears to be almost exclusively composed, even in the solo sections. So you'll need to clarify whether you want to learn jazz, or whether you want to learn to play Tosin's brand of progressive shred.

If you want to learn jazz, there are plenty of jazz instructional materials available. None of them, as far as I know, are aimed specifically at 8-string guitar, but the basic principles of jazz transcend the instrument: learning to feel swing rhythms, learning to understand jazz harmony, and learning how to construct improvised lines with/over/against specific harmonies. With a little work, any 6-string jazz guitar resources can be adapted for 8-string.

If you want to learn to play like Tosin, the best thing to do is to study Tosin's music. He's got a series of videos on JamPlay that cover his basic approach and some of his specialized 8-string techniques, and which teach a couple of songs from AAL's debut album. The tabs for all the songs from that record are available on the Web. Study that stuff, adding supplemental technique- and theory-specific material when you don't understand how to play a particular passage or why he put those chords or those notes together.


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## Daken1134 (Nov 3, 2011)

start by taking all the chords you know (assuming you have some chordal background with jazz) and establishing 7 and 8 string versions of them/inversions


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## RichIKE (Nov 4, 2011)

Relevant. This guy can swing that 8 string for sure.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Nov 4, 2011)

^that was pure excellence


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## vampiregenocide (Nov 4, 2011)

If you drop the B down to an A and the F# to E, you can just move bass notes around much easier. Learn a few chord shapes and mess around with the bass note in different octaves.


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## Explorer (Nov 5, 2011)

celticelk said:


> *a ton of awesome*



CE has hit the nail on the head. A lot of people toss out the word "jazz" the same way a lot of people say that something is "metal" because of some superficial features.

+1 to your rep, good sir!


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## SirMyghin (Nov 5, 2011)

^^^ which leads to the supreme over use of the descriptor jazzy (most often not appropriately), and typically when something deviates from run of the mill rock music (and I am lumping metal in with rock as pop music under a big umbrella). When what they usually mean is something like 'his phrasing is interesting'


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 5, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> ^^^ which leads to the supreme over use of the descriptor jazzy (most often not appropriately), and typically when something deviates from run of the mill rock music (and I am lumping metal in with rock as pop music under a big umbrella). When what they usually mean is something like 'his phrasing is interesting'



ill simplify it even more; anything that doesnt use distortion and the pentatonic scale; is considered jazz these days ;o 

but all music genre labels are lame anyways.. so its best to just ask "I want to learn something similar to this band" rather than specify a genre imo (except then you get judged by elitist kids due to the music you list) lol guess theres no winning.


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## celticelk (Nov 6, 2011)

^^^^^^ I wouldn't go so far as that, but I don't think you're hugely off-base either. "Jazzy" in common use seems to mean either "swings" (which jazz does, but often so does hip-hop, in both cases probably due to the blues influence; European folk music has some asymmetrical triplet rhythms happening as well); "has horns" (and is not, for example, marching band music); or "uses complex harmony" (which jazz borrowed from Western classical and pop music - there's no diminished-scale stuff in west African music, for example). The improvisational aspect, which to my mind is key to the experience of jazz, gets glossed over entirely. I can't help but wonder if this is partly due to the overwhelming shift in our experience-of-music from live performance to recordings: if that recorded solo by Miles or Monk or Marsalis is the same every time you listen to it, you can start to forget that any of those players would have played a completely different solo on that same piece at any other time they performed it.

And boy, are we off the OP's topic....


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## Trespass (Nov 6, 2011)

In my experience, 'jazzy' to the public is anything that swings, or has harmony that features a 7th. Playing with an R&B group, I was given the response by a few people (mainly classical musicians) that they aren't into "vocal jazz". 

We were performing Etta James, Nina Simone type stuff, not really jazz at all.


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## celticelk (Nov 6, 2011)

I would totally place Nina Simone in the "jazz" category, personally, though I can see where one might argue for "R&B" or even "blues" as an identifier.


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## ElRay (Nov 6, 2011)

celticelk said:


> ... "Jazzy" in common use seems to mean ...


"angular" melodies. You can't forget those 

Ray


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## Trespass (Nov 7, 2011)

celticelk said:


> I would totally place Nina Simone in the "jazz" category, personally, though I can see where one might argue for "R&B" or even "blues" as an identifier.



Not to be "one of those types" who nags about genre, but what why would you call what she's doing jazz?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 7, 2011)

^ irony much?

"Not to be a nitpicker, but *proceeds to nitpick*"


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## Xiphos68 (Nov 7, 2011)

(Some of his jamplay stuff) 


(Pretty cool lesson for poly-rhythms). 

Hope this helps, and good luck to your playing!


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## Trespass (Nov 7, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ irony much?
> 
> "Not to be a nitpicker, but *proceeds to nitpick*"



I'm disassociating myself from the genre-core by opening my question with that statement.


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## Captain_Awesome (Dec 2, 2011)

Daken1134 said:


> start by taking all the chords you know (assuming you have some chordal background with jazz) and establishing 7 and 8 string versions of them/inversions



What this guy said, although jazz relies heavily on rhythm it wouldn't sound like jazz without the correct use of chords. A simple way to begin on an 8-string would be to simply work around shell shapes, i.e to go root, 7th, 3rd


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## Kairos (Dec 4, 2011)

Tosin doesn't play jazz.


Practice technique (like A LOT), theory (if you don't know theory yet), learn chord extensions, learn some exotic scale shapes, and where to apply them.


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## Iamasingularity (Dec 4, 2011)

Kairos said:


> Tosin doesn't play jazz.
> 
> 
> Practice technique (like A LOT), theory (if you don't know theory yet), learn chord extensions, learn some exotic scale shapes, and where to apply them.



Thats ridiculus, there`s a video right above you of him doing really jazzy voicings, and if you`ve heard the 2 albums, there`s alot of jazz breakdowns.
Tosin integrates his jazz influences and techniques perfectly into much heavy playing! Someone give this guy their CD!


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## SirMyghin (Dec 4, 2011)

^ Jazz influences yes, jazz, no. That is not a shot at the guy in the least, it is however what is happening.


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## Kairos (Dec 4, 2011)

Iamasingularity said:


> Thats ridiculus, there`s a video right above you of him doing really jazzy voicings, and if you`ve heard the 2 albums, there`s alot of jazz breakdowns.
> Tosin integrates his jazz influences and techniques perfectly into much heavy playing! Someone give this guy their CD!




 You've said it yourself. He uses jazz voicings (which is why I said to learn chord extensions). It's just that there's a lack of understanding by some people. Tosin certainly has a strong jazz influence (especially on certain pieces, like Modern Meat, but that doesn't make it jazz.


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## Trespass (Dec 4, 2011)

Jazz died in 1959.

There maybe cool individuals who say they play Jazz, but ain&#8217;t shit cool about Jazz as a whole.

Jazz died when cool stopped being hip.

Jazz was a limited idea to begin with.

Jazz is a label that was forced upon the musicians.

The musicians should&#8217;ve never accepted that idea.

Jazz ain&#8217;t shit.

Jazz is incestuous.

Jazz separated itself from American popular music.

Big mistake.

The music never recovered.

Ornette tried to save Jazz from itself by taking the music back to its New Orleanian roots, but his efforts were too esoteric.

Jazz died in 1959, that&#8217;s why Ornette tried to &#8220;Free Jazz&#8221; in 1960.

Jazz is only cool if you don&#8217;t actually play it for a living.

Jazz musicians have accepted the idea that it&#8217;s OK to be poor.

John Coltrane is a bad cat, but Jazz stopped being cool in 1959.

The very fact that so many people are holding on to this idea of what Jazz is supposed to be is exactly what makes it not cool.

People are holding on to an idea that died long ago.

Jazz, like the Buddha, is dead.

Let it go, people, let it go.

Paul Whiteman was the King of Jazz and someday all kings must fall.

Jazz ain&#8217;t cool, it&#8217;s cold, like necrophilia.

Stop fucking the dead and embrace the living.

Jazz worries way too much about itself for it to be cool.

Jazz died in 1959.

The number one Jazz record is Miles Davis&#8217; Kind Of Blue.

Dave Brubeck&#8217;s Time Out was released in 1959.

1959 was the coolest year in Jazz.

Jazz is haunted by its own hungry ghosts.

Let it die.

You can be martyrs for an idea that died over a half a century if y&#8217;all want.

Jazz has proven itself to be limited, and therefore, not cool.

Lot&#8217;s wife turned to a pillar of salt from looking back.

Jazz is dead.

Miles ahead.

Some may say that I&#8217;m no longer the same dude who recorded the album with Doc Cheatham.

Correct: I&#8217;m not the same dude I was 14 years ago.

Isn&#8217;t that the point?

Our whole purpose on this planet is to evolve.

The Golden Age of Jazz is gone.

Let it go.

Too many necrophiliacs in Jazz.

You&#8217;re making my case for me.

Some people may say we are defined by our limitations.

I don&#8217;t believe in limitations, but yes, if you believe you are limited that will define you.

Definitions are retrospective.

And if you find yourself getting mad, it&#8217;s probably because you know Jazz is dead.

Why get upset if what I&#8217;m saying doesn&#8217;t ring true?

I can&#8217;t speak for anyone else, but I don&#8217;t play Jazz.

I play Postmodern New Orleans music.

Louis Armstrong and Danny Barker play Traditional New Orleans Music.

Ellis Marsalis and James Black play Modern New Orleans music.

Kidd Jordan and Clyde Kerr play Avant-garde New Orleans music.

Donald Harrison plays Neoclassical New Orleans music.

I play Postmodern New Orleans music.

I am a part of a lineage.

I am a part of a blood line.

My ancestors didn&#8217;t play Jazz, they played Traditional, Modern and Avant-garde New Orleans Music.

I don&#8217;t play Jazz.

I don&#8217;t let others define who I am.

I am a Postmodern New Orleans musician.

I create music for the heart and the head, for the beauty and the booty.

The man who lets others define him is a dead man.

With all due respect to the masters, they were victims of a colonialist mentality.

Blacks have been conditioned for centuries to be grateful for whatever crumbs thrown to them.

As a postmodern musician, it&#8217;s my duty to do better than my predecessors.

To question, reexamine and redefine what it is that we do.

They accepted it because they had to.

Because my ancestors opened the door for me, I don&#8217;t have to accept it.

Louis bowed and scraped so Miles could turn his back.

It&#8217;s called evolution.

It&#8217;s the colonialist mentality that glorifies being treated like a slave.

There is nothing romantic about poor, scuffling Jazz musicians.

Fuck that idea.

It&#8217;s not cool.

Jazz is a lie.

America is a lie.

Playing Jazz is like running on a treadmill: you may break a sweat, but ultimately you ain&#8217;t going nowhere.

Some people may say we are limited.

I say, we are as limited as we think.

I am not limited.

Jazz is a marketing ploy that serves an elite few.

The elite make all the money while they tell the true artists it&#8217;s cool to be broke.

Occupy Jazz!

I am not speaking of so-called Jazz&#8217;s improvisational aspects.

Improvisation by its very nature can never be passé, but mindsets are invariably deadly.

Not knowing is the most you can ever know.

It&#8217;s only when you don&#8217;t know that &#8220;everything&#8221; is possible.

Jazz has nothing to do with music or being cool.

It&#8217;s a marketing idea.

A glaring example of what&#8217;s wrong with Jazz is how people fight over it.

People are too afraid to let go of a name that is killing the spirit of the music.

Life is bigger than music, unless you love and/or play Jazz.

The art, or lack thereof, is just a reflection.

Miles Davis personified cool and he hated Jazz.

What is Jazz anyway?

Life isn&#8217;t linear, it&#8217;s concentric.

When you&#8217;re truly creating you don&#8217;t have time to think about what to call it.

Who thinks of what they&#8217;ll name the baby while they&#8217;re fucking?

Playing Jazz is like using the rear-view mirror to drive your car on the freeway.

If you think Jazz is a style of music, you&#8217;ll never begin to understand.

It&#8217;s ultimately on the musicians.

People are fickle and follow the pack.

Not enough artists willing to soldier for their shit.

People follow trends and brands.

So do musicians, sadly.

Jazz is a brand.

Jazz ain&#8217;t music, it&#8217;s marketing, and bad marketing at that.

It has never been, nor will it ever be, music.

Here lies Jazz (1916 &#8211; 1959).

Too many musicians and not enough artists.

I believe music to be more of a medium than a brand.

Silence is music, too.

You can&#8217;t practice art.

In order for it to be true, one must live it.

Existence is not contingent upon thought.

It&#8217;s where you choose to put silence that makes sound music.

Sound and silence equals music.

Sometimes when I&#8217;m soloing, I don&#8217;t play shit.

I just move blocks of silence around.

The notes are an afterthought.

Silence is what makes music sexy.

Silence is cool.

- Nicholas Payton


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## Trespass (Dec 4, 2011)

Tosin is more than what you guys are stating. If I were to try and condense what Tosin is doing harmonically, I'd say he's pulling from melodic minor, whole tone, and voicing these chords quartally and quintally at times.

Opening lick in Tempting Time is a maj7#5 run, which is third mode of melodic minor. I hear lots of bits like this.

Tosin's voicings aren't just "jazz voicings and extensions". He's pulling from a very specific genre of jazz (mainly the post-Metheny guitar generation - Rosenwinkel and co). I assume that some to nearly all of his voicings are his own, and if he did get it from somewhere, they didn't exist or definitely were not common pre-1990s.


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## Iamasingularity (Dec 5, 2011)

Trespass said:


> Tosin is more than what you guys are stating. If I were to try and condense what Tosin is doing harmonically, I'd say he's pulling from melodic minor, whole tone, and voicing these chords quartally and quintally at times.
> 
> Opening lick in Tempting Time is a maj7#5 run, which is third mode of melodic minor. I hear lots of bits like this.
> 
> Tosin's voicings aren't just "jazz voicings and extensions". He's pulling from a very specific genre of jazz (mainly the post-Metheny guitar generation - Rosenwinkel and co). I assume that some to nearly all of his voicings are his own, and if he did get it from somewhere, they didn't exist or definitely were not common pre-1990s.



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fucking love this dude.


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## Kairos (Dec 5, 2011)

Trespass said:


> Tosin is more than what you guys are stating. If I were to try and condense what Tosin is doing harmonically, I'd say he's pulling from melodic minor, whole tone, and voicing these chords quartally and quintally at times.
> 
> Opening lick in Tempting Time is a maj7#5 run, which is third mode of melodic minor. I hear lots of bits like this.
> 
> Tosin's voicings aren't just "jazz voicings and extensions". He's pulling from a very specific genre of jazz (mainly the post-Metheny guitar generation - Rosenwinkel and co). I assume that some to nearly all of his voicings are his own, and if he did get it from somewhere, they didn't exist or definitely were not common pre-1990s.




I'm not trying to come off as making Tosin's music out to be any less (I LOVE the self-titled). What I'm trying to say is, however harmonically complex his music, it's not really "jazz". It's funny coming into a thread saying they want to learn jazz, then site Tosin. As far as voicings go, obviously, there weren't exactly many 8-string bebop players , but I bet Ted Greene knew them on a 6, because his enharmonic knowledge and fretboard mastery was just off the wall.


What did you mean by posting the Payton quote? I read it the other day, but it seemed like he had a slightly different goal writeing it, and I'm not sure how it fits into the thread.


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## Trespass (Dec 6, 2011)

Kairos said:


> I'm not trying to come off as making Tosin's music out to be any less (I LOVE the self-titled). What I'm trying to say is, however harmonically complex his music, it's not really "jazz". It's funny coming into a thread saying they want to learn jazz, then site Tosin. As far as voicings go, obviously, there weren't exactly many 8-string bebop players , but I bet Ted Greene knew them on a 6, because his enharmonic knowledge and fretboard mastery was just off the wall.
> 
> 
> What did you mean by posting the Payton quote? I read it the other day, but it seemed like he had a slightly different goal writeing it, and I'm not sure how it fits into the thread.



I have no idea what made you think I was pushing Tosin as a jazz artist. I'd go as far to say that he can't improvise as well as the average 3-4th year university student in a jazz program.

Payton quote was a reference to "wanting to learn jazz". 

Why mention 8 string bebop? Bebop is one of the most straightforward jazz languages around, despite what a lot of jazz programs will tell you. It's not some pinnacle of the art form. There are maybe 12 different devices you need to know to play bebop.

Bebop doesn't sound good in the lower registers at all (5th and 6th string), why bother extending to 7th and 8th?


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## SirMyghin (Dec 6, 2011)

Trespass said:


> Bebop doesn't sound good in the lower registers at all (5th and 6th string), why bother extending to 7th and 8th?



The lower the note, the less fast you can play em and sound good. Gotta let them hit you after all. That is part of why Stanley Clarke tuned his bass UP. (not arguing with you, enforcing it).


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## The Reverend (Dec 6, 2011)

I see that genre debates don't just apply to the micro-genres in metal?


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## Mindcrime1204 (Dec 7, 2011)

That Nicholas Payton dude must have been doped up beyond shit when he said/wrote all that stuff...


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## Trespass (Dec 7, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> The lower the note, the less fast you can play em and sound good. Gotta let them hit you after all. That is part of why Stanley Clarke tuned his bass UP. (not arguing with you, enforcing it).



That, and you have no harmonic support in those registers. Us pianists won't voice thirds that low (most of the time). The 5th and 6th strings is bass territory anyways.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 7, 2011)

^ especially the way I play bass, love my 5 string as I can live at 7th fret or so. Need a 6 string though, one day.


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## Tyghor (Dec 8, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> The lower the note, the less fast you can play em and sound good. Gotta let them hit you after all. That is part of why Stanley Clarke tuned his bass UP. (not arguing with you, enforcing it).


 

He tuned his bass up? Do you know what kind of tuning he is usining? You've just hit my curiosity real hard!


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## SirMyghin (Dec 8, 2011)

Tyghor said:


> He tuned his bass up? Do you know what kind of tuning he is usining? You've just hit my curiosity real hard!



Pretty sure he tuned up a 4th, so A D G C, aka the top 4 strings of a 6 stringer. Whether or not he still does is unknown to me.


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## GATA4 (Dec 8, 2011)

To the OP: Check out some walking-bass-line style jazz grooves. Although I'm sure most You-Tube tutorials will feature a six-string player usually, if your grasp on basic chord knowledge is pretty savvy then you should be able to learn those grooves using the first six strings. Then, experiment with them using the full range of the eight (aka you could make some meeean bass lines under the melody). Learning walking-bass-lines and the chords that are played on every other beat is an excellent way to become familiar with many jazz chord progressions--how to approach them, how to resolve them, etc. You will also become familiar with different voicings of chords--a huge aspect of jazz. 




Those two videos are really helpful. I'm currently practicing the lick in the second video. It's a lot of fun


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## Trespass (Dec 9, 2011)

GATA4 said:


> To the OP: Check out some walking-bass-line style jazz grooves. Although I'm sure most You-Tube tutorials will feature a six-string player usually, if your grasp on basic chord knowledge is pretty savvy then you should be able to learn those grooves using the first six strings. Then, experiment with them using the full range of the eight (aka you could make some meeean bass lines under the melody). Learning walking-bass-lines and the chords that are played on every other beat is an excellent way to become familiar with many jazz chord progressions--how to approach them, how to resolve them, etc. You will also become familiar with different voicings of chords--a huge aspect of jazz.
> 
> 
> Those two videos are really helpful. I'm currently practicing the lick in the second video. It's a lot of fun




Great effort, but I'm pretty sure the OP has no interest in jazz.


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## SirMyghin (Dec 10, 2011)

Trespass said:


> Great effort, but I'm pretty sure the OP has no interest in jazz.



Considering he hasn't come back since we said Tosin =/= jazz, probably a fair assessment


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## GATA4 (Dec 14, 2011)

Haha well, maybe another young chap who actually wants to learn jazz will take our advice.


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## The Reverend (Dec 14, 2011)

TBH, I had assumed that AAL songs like Modern Meat were jazz, but I see now that it doesn't swing. Having informed myself a bit, or rather having been informed by you guys, I feel like I can sort of identify where the jazz influence comes from in his voicings, and even a bit in some of his tapping sections where the bass note kinda sorta walks. 

Is there such a thing as jazz that's more chord-based than swing based? I like the complexity of jazz voicings, but swinging them IMO both shortens and cheapens their existence. Any of you jazzophiles aware of anything like this?


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## Pooluke41 (Dec 14, 2011)

Personally I would tune that bass to B standard like a sevenstring and add a High A or another higher string, just because, chords like...

E:-5
B:-4
G:-5
D:-4
A:-
E:-5
B:-4
E:-

Sound Muddier than chords like...

A:-4
E:-5
B:-4
G:-5
D:-4
A:--
E:-5
B:--

Of course this is all subjective as this is my personal opinion, but I feel that 'Cluttering' up a chord with extra notes in the bass(?), makes the low end exaggerated and doesn't allow you to hear the chord voiced properly.

This probably makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to you, but I'm ill and tired at one in the morning, so just say If you don't know what I mean.


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