# Be careful with Steiner Kraus Guitars. Also Mörk Verden who is Steiner Kraus? It's all confusing.



## KIMERA666 (Jul 27, 2019)

I’m writing this post to warn you about the lack of professionalism and ethics of Steiner Kraus guitars. Back in June 2018 Steiner Kraus started offering DIY kits of his models, so I contacted him regarding a kit of his valkerye model. On June 13th, 2018 I purchased a valkerye DIY kit 7 strings with tremolo, during the following months there was a good communication with him and his company, which included pictures of the build progress up to November 2018, after this date communication with him or his company hasn´t been efficient.

On January 5th, 2019 Steiner Kraus replied one of my messages saying that the build will be completed in 9 days, despite the fact that this was meant to be a build that would take a couple of months. On January 14th, 2019, He called me via Facebook messenger telling me that he was sorry for the delay and that the build was in progress. On February 7th He replied another of my messages saying that he will be "... spending today here to get organized with all my customers and send pictures off... Including yourself". No pictures were sent. On March 20th he replied to me "… finishing up all 7 strings this week. Will have a shipping day for you on Friday morning". No information was given that week, no shipping information or pictures. 

On April 26th He replied " … very sorry for the delay. I am currently just out of town for a family funeral and will be back at the shop Monday. Thank you for your patience"; "... Yes. I completely understand your frustrations. I’m working as hard and fast as I can to expedite this guitar for shipping. I will be back to work in a couple days as I had to head out of town for a funeral. My earliest eta for shipping will be next Thursday/friday". As you can guess no shipping information was sent.

On May 2nd He replied " … here’s where we are at I have to get all guitars including yours out for this month of May. I have had many problems with different employees not being able to provide their skills and abilities to the business and it has left me as a one-man show which I am fine with however as you can see it has caused some major delays", "There have been a lot of outside activities taking away from my time in the shop collecting wood placing orders ordering materials and reaching out to customers “to which I replied "Ok, if those are the issues you are having then you should have told me that a while ago, If you are honest with the reality of the situation then I can adjust my expectations ,instead of being given a false hope that it would be done soon. The last picture that you sent me, the body was practically done, has there been any more progress done to the guitar, like the neck or is in the same state? “ and He answered " There will be completed photos of the Guitar online this week.", I replied "Are you sure it will be done this week?" , "I know that I’m nowhere to be a known musician , but this build is something that I have really wanted for a long time and despite not being an expensive product, I have worked really hard for every dollar that it costs", He replied: " Absolutely and I completely understand and you will not be disappointed with what you will be receiving" and gave me your word that the build would be "Done. Completed and Shipped by May 21st."

May 21st came with no information. On May 24th I asked for a refund, to which He replied, "There isn’t going to be a refund. Your going to get the guitar." After this date, being tired about this situation I kept asking about my product or a refund. On June 11th He wrote me regarding the pictures he initially sent me in November “... Nothing has happened to it. I will have our situation with the shipping of your guitar resolved this week”.

June 13th He wrote me“ all orders from 2018 are going out the door within the next 13 business days.” June 26th He called me saying that he was sorry and that by next week he will be sending me pictures and a shipping date, and that my kit was supposedly finished. Again, days came and no pictures or shipping information were given. I kept asking about a refund and about all the guitars that he is publishing on his social media to which he replied me on July 13th “Put in for a charge back with your credit card company and get your refund. If it bothers you to take a look at my social media of me posting guitars that is quite simple and don’t look at it.”To which I replied “Like if that will work after a whole year... ””and why shouldn’t I see your social media posts if that might be the only way I would get a real update”.After this message he has been ignoring my messages and emails.

As of today, over a year after paying for the product, no real information has been given about the state of the build; no pictures or real updates have been sent since November 2018, He has committed over and over again with different dates that he has failed to achieve. No product has been shipped or refund has been given.


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## Hollowway (Jul 27, 2019)

Damn, that sucks. I've been there, myself. I have 3 instances where the exact same thing has happened, and never got the instrument. It's basically scared me off customs in 99% of the cases.


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## Zado (Jul 27, 2019)

The funeral of a member of the family is an evergreen


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## Vede (Jul 27, 2019)

That really blows. 

The company appears to have an active social media presence. I’d suggest you hound him there - twitter, Instagram, and FB - until he gets nervous enough that his other customers will see something negative that he’s forced to restart communications.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 27, 2019)

The old "its shipping next week" leave me alone builder excuse to try get you off their backs. The amount of times I had to deal with that and months would go by with no guitar and emails ignored.


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## Lemonbaby (Jul 27, 2019)

Besides his name indicating the origin, he's writing many Insta posts in German while you seem to live in Colombia. Aren't there any luthiers you could have visited in his shop within reasonable travel time? Just wondering why you picked a total noname outfit halfway around the globe to build your custom guitar (kit)...


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## Azathoth43 (Jul 27, 2019)

I've seen so many posts like this on this site throughout the years. It's why I'll never have a custom guitar built. Too risky. Really sucks for you. Hope you get some sort of resolution.


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## Andromalia (Jul 27, 2019)

The golden rule for custom orders from unknown companies is to ask for a delivery date inside the delay for a card chargeback. No delivery, you ask for a chargeback and he gets to pay the fees.


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## KIMERA666 (Jul 27, 2019)

Lemonbaby said:


> Besides his name indicating the origin, he's writing many Insta posts in German while you seem to live in Colombia. Aren't there any luthiers you could have visited in his shop within reasonable travel time? Just wondering why you picked a total noname outfit halfway around the globe to build your custom guitar (kit)...


 Because back then He was offering what I wanted for a reasonable (not unfair) price, and had different builds in progress for well know artists.... but yeah, I should have know better.


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## Edika (Jul 27, 2019)

I hope you finally get your guitar man but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

What confuses me here is that you bought from him a DIY kit that he is building for you?


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## coffeeflush (Jul 27, 2019)

Man this sucks. 
Scares me and many others from going for custom builds.


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## USMarine75 (Jul 27, 2019)

All of these examples are why I just buy from known custom shops like Fender, PRS, Mayones, ESP, Framus, etc. If you need exotic and have the cash then companies like Daemoness. Too many horror stories...

Plus wtf I've seen and played a few of these smaller luthier's guitars and frankly my stock MIK Schecter Loomis blows them away in every category except uniqueness. YMMV

Good luck I really hope this ends well.


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## Hollowway (Jul 28, 2019)

Lemonbaby said:


> Besides his name indicating the origin, he's writing many Insta posts in German while you seem to live in Colombia. Aren't there any luthiers you could have visited in his shop within reasonable travel time? Just wondering why you picked a total noname outfit halfway around the globe to build your custom guitar (kit)...



What good would that have done? There are plenty of instances where people bought instruments from luthiers in driving distances from themselves, and got burned out of the money. I had it happen myself. I went to collect one, and I was threatened by the guy. I called the cops, and they said there was nothing they could do, it's a civil matter. So, I could sue in small claims court, and win a judgement. But, that doesn't force the guy to pay. So then I'd have to sue again, not in small claims court, to try to force a payment. All at my time and expense.

The simple fact of the matter is that people are going to get screwed, and there's nothing we can do about it. Maybe this guy was not super well known. But what would have been better? Ran - who has been around for over a decade, and suddenly dried up with all of the deposits? Or Siggery, who had a similar track record? Or BRJ, who had dealers, and a solid reputation? There is no answer. As @Andromalia said, the ONLY recourse we have is to buy exclusively from luthiers who can ship an instrument within 6 months. And there are precious few of those. Big shops, like @USMarine75 talks about - Fender, ESP, PRS, etc - are likely safe. But even seemingly big shops, like Ormsby, have no guarantee of liquidity. If something were to happen to Pez, like a family illness, etc., he could end up having to abandon his business. 

I try to only buy from luthiers who can ship in 6 months now, so I can claim a chargeback. I've inquired about a couple of in-stock builds with luthiers who have suggested I commission a build. I tell them I've lost thousands in previous deals, and they then respond with, "Are you suggesting I am a scammer?" So, the luthier side has it hard, because we can't tell who is going to stay healthy, who won't go under, and who will be an ethical businessman, and the customer side has it bad because we're the one left with no collateral when nothing shows up in the mail.


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## Andromalia (Jul 28, 2019)

> I tell them I've lost thousands in previous deals, and they then respond with, "Are you suggesting I am a scammer?"



Canned answer: "No, but when I first go to bed with a girl, I use condoms, always and without exceptions".
If the guy still doesn't get it at that point, it's a lost cause.


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## USMarine75 (Jul 28, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> Canned answer: "No, but when I first go to bed with a girl, I use condoms, always and without exceptions".
> If the guy still doesn't get it at that point, it's a lost cause.



Sorry, do what now? I cant hear you over the screaming of my 4 kids...


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## Emperoff (Jul 28, 2019)

Ouch... This again... 

I've had my share of these (one of them almost broke my relationship). So never again.

Look... There's a concept people don't seem to grasp. If you go to a noname builder to build you a guitar because no one else can do what you want at that price... Shouldn't that tell you something?

Sorry if this comes out rude, but if you can't afford the custom guitar you want, you shouldn't be even considering it. Resorting to a cheap unknown guy to do the job so you can have it is a potential source of issues. Roter or Bernie Rico Jr. come to mind...

If you can't spend 4000$ on a custom guitar, then maybe the custom guitar market isn't for you. It sure isn't for me, and that's why I buy used customs instead.

Something I learned the hard way, is that you might spend a truckload of money thinking you know what you want, and then not being entirely satisfied after receiving the guitar two years later. And that is assuming everything goes well.


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## Sogradde (Jul 29, 2019)

Lemonbaby said:


> Besides his name indicating the origin, he's writing many Insta posts in German while you seem to live in Colombia. Aren't there any luthiers you could have visited in his shop within reasonable travel time? Just wondering why you picked a total noname outfit halfway around the globe to build your custom guitar (kit)...


From his Facebook page: "Steiner Kraus Guitars is a manufacturer of electric guitars located in Calgary, Canada."


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## Hollowway (Jul 30, 2019)

Emperoff said:


> Ouch... This again...
> 
> I've had my share of these (one of them almost broke my relationship). So never again.
> 
> ...



This is 100% hindsight. Steiner Kraus is not a “nobody.” And there is no way you can tell who is going to disappear with your money. Look into the history of customs on here, and tell me who you could tell wouldn’t deliver their instruments. BRJ used to charge over $3000 for customs, and was a pretty big name in custom guitars. Until he imploded. Sherman used to charge $4000-7000 until he disappeared with peoples’ money. Decibel charged $3000+ For their instruments. In all of these cases none of us could have guessed they’d never deliver guitars. 
I agree with you about customs not being the right market for everyone - I’ve been burned enough I’m in the exact same camp you are. But I don’t think you can blame the victim for not knowing ahead of time who was going to disappear. Well established luthiers scam people quite frequently, as we’ve all seen. You could go with a major company like ESP/Schecter, but you’re going to be held to their options/body styles.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 30, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> This is 100% hindsight. Steiner Kraus is not a “nobody.” And there is no way you can tell who is going to disappear with your money. Look into the history of customs on here, and tell me who you could tell wouldn’t deliver their instruments. BRJ used to charge over $3000 for customs, and was a pretty big name in custom guitars. Until he imploded. Sherman used to charge $4000-7000 until he disappeared with peoples’ money. Decibel charged $3000+ For their instruments. In all of these cases none of us could have guessed they’d never deliver guitars.
> I agree with you about customs not being the right market for everyone - I’ve been burned enough I’m in the exact same camp you are. But I don’t think you can blame the victim for not knowing ahead of time who was going to disappear. Well established luthiers scam people quite frequently, as we’ve all seen. You could go with a major company like ESP/Schecter, but you’re going to be held to their options/body styles.



The red flags are there if you let yourself see them. But hype and "great deals" are too good.

BRJ was known for being a dipshit, he had run BCR into the ground, not once but twice, and was shady as all Hell. He had scammed a number of dealers and was recruiting fly-by-night artists with free guitars (or the promise of) and telling folks to stay quiet. The BFR run was one of those "too good to be true" moments that really was. A number of folks chimed in early on, but were drowned out by hype and enthusiasm.

Sherman was another problematic actor, and when some "trusted" folks started protecting him and then all of a sudden went silent, it was probably a sign. Granted, unless you were on here frequently, especially in the mid aughts, you wouldn't have known anything was up.

Darren had built, what, two guitars? He didn't even have a functioning wood shop when he started taking orders. But of course, he had some friends on here, who strangely enough pulled some shenanigans in the BRJ BFR shit show, hype his wares. A great website, and some slick mockups, does not a builder make.

But time heals all. BRJ still goes to NAMM, and you'd be crazy if you think he doesn't have some involvement in the newly revamped BCR. I've heard rumors of Sherman working with others, but they might be bogus. Again, if you weren't here almost 15 years ago you wouldn't know. Darren is still smooching with artists waiting for the few who remember to forget so he can make a triumphant return.

Folks do this to themselves.

It's not really an issue of "good" vs. "bad" builders, where on one side is a guarantee of receiving what you ordered and on the other you get completely hosed. It's just a set of circumstances that gives you some odds. What are the odds that "builder x" will deliver? Are you okay with those odds?


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## Emperoff (Jul 30, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> This is 100% hindsight. Steiner Kraus is not a “nobody.” And there is no way you can tell who is going to disappear with your money. Look into the history of customs on here, and tell me who you could tell wouldn’t deliver their instruments. BRJ used to charge over $3000 for customs, and was a pretty big name in custom guitars. Until he imploded. Sherman used to charge $4000-7000 until he disappeared with peoples’ money. Decibel charged $3000+ For their instruments. In all of these cases none of us could have guessed they’d never deliver guitars.
> I agree with you about customs not being the right market for everyone - I’ve been burned enough I’m in the exact same camp you are. But I don’t think you can blame the victim for not knowing ahead of time who was going to disappear. Well established luthiers scam people quite frequently, as we’ve all seen. You could go with a major company like ESP/Schecter, but you’re going to be held to their options/body styles.



I'm not blaming the victim. That would be like somebody being robbed and blaming the victim for not knowing they were in a dangerous place.

But you got my point anyway. I could elaborate more, but Max did it perfectly for me so I don't have much to add. When you want something so bad, you just don't see the signs. Same as when you're in love.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The red flags are there if you let yourself see them. But hype and "great deals" are too good.
> 
> BRJ was known for being a dipshit, he had run BCR into the ground, not once but twice, and was shady as all Hell. He had scammed a number of dealers and was recruiting fly-by-night artists with free guitars (or the promise of) and telling folks to stay quiet. The BFR run was one of those "too good to be true" moments that really was. A number of folks chimed in early on, but were drowned out by hype and enthusiasm.
> 
> ...



Maybe Holloway picked some bad examples. 

Ran seemed pretty sudden. And black water.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 30, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Maybe Holloway picked some bad examples.
> 
> Ran seemed pretty sudden. And black water.


blackwater was a long time coming. Aaron basically started dragging his feet on builds starting a few years ago


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## Señor Voorhees (Jul 30, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Ran seemed pretty sudden.



That's kind of the point. Even people you have confidence in can just vanish like a fart in the wind. Nothing is guaranteed, and it's likely not worth spending money on if you can't guarantee a delivery inside the charge-back window.


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## Mathemagician (Jul 30, 2019)

Yeah I think the hard pill for people to swallow is the idea that $2000 isn’t much in terms of “first world build quality and attention to detail”.

Because that’s really what one is paying for.

But they want a “custom” without the budget for it. People still get mad that it’s $1400 for “just an import” when they have Ibanez lifting Mayones paint jobs/tops/woods/specs wholesale for a fraction of the cost.

Like, did you expect an MIJ mayones for $1400?


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 30, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> Yeah I think the hard pill for people to swallow is the idea that $2000 isn’t much in terms of “first world build quality and attention to detail”.
> 
> Because that’s really what one is paying for.
> 
> ...



Or like if you’re buying something that isn’t from a store and can’t be returned. 

Don’t be spending money you can’t afford to lose.

I mean it sucks. And you gotta warm people if shit happens. But I don’t think getting mad as ever gotten any a refund. 

Speaking of which...I’m hopefully about to get a guitar soon.


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## Bearitone (Jul 30, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> The golden rule for custom orders from unknown companies is to ask for a delivery date inside the delay for a card chargeback. No delivery, you ask for a chargeback and he gets to pay the fees.


Could you go into more detail as how to exactly set this up? Can it be done through PayPal?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 30, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> Maybe Holloway picked some bad examples.
> 
> Ran seemed pretty sudden. And black water.



They were bad examples, but it also shows that most of these situations could be seen coming in some way. 

Read the end of my comment again, it's about the odds. 

RAN was a very small operation in a faraway land (to most), that itself brings risk. Blackwater was a one-man operation, which also brings with it risk. He could get hit by a bus or suffer a stroke, or just decide building guitars isn't fun anymore. 

It's risk vs. reward. Every shop and situation brings with it different risks and it's up to the consumer to acknowledge that and choose whether it outweighs proceeding.


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## IbanezDaemon (Jul 30, 2019)

Do any of these builders actually offer legally binding contracts? Given the length of time on some of these builds I'm not sure if you have a leg to stand on credit card or paypal wise. Even with a legally binding contract trying to take a builder to court is nigh on impossible...see BRJ debacle...even more so if you are overseas. OP...real sorry to hear you got burned. Hope it works out for You.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 30, 2019)

IbanezDaemon said:


> Do any of these builders actually offer legally binding contracts? Given the length of time on some of these builds I'm not sure if you have a leg to stand on credit card or paypal wise. Even with a legally binding contract trying to take a builder to court is nigh on impossible...see BRJ debacle...even more so if you are overseas. OP...real sorry to hear you got burned. Hope it works out for You.



It's not in the builder's favor to layout a detailed contract, so it's incredibly rare. Even the more well known boutique shops don't really offer something like that, though if they use a dealer as an intermediary it's a moot point as the dealer will rectify most problems. 

For example, Suhr and Anderson just make you sign a spec sheet and invoice, but those are mostly to cover them, so you can't say they built the wrong thing.


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## chipchappy (Jul 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's not in the builder's favor to layout a detailed contract, so it's incredibly rare.



I feel like every custom luthier's worst nightmare would be some piece of paper that reads "I said said I'd get this done by [X Date]" with their signature on it


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## Xaios (Jul 30, 2019)

Time to revise the top-left square?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 30, 2019)

Xaios said:


> Time to revise the top-left square?



I think it's time to go for a generic "failed builder" square, as it's looking pretty crowded. Also, no one knows who half those guys are anymore. 

I also formally request that "Golden Rep Bar" be replaced with "Fluences".


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## Andromalia (Jul 31, 2019)

It baffles me BRJ can go to NAMM unmolested, to be perfectly honest. But then Ed Roman was in the business for decades so I guess the US market is pretty lenient.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 31, 2019)

Andromalia said:


> It baffles me BRJ can go to NAMM unmolested, to be perfectly honest. But then Ed Roman was in the business for decades so I guess the US market is pretty lenient.



Most who go to NAMM are vendors, retailers, popular and connected artists, and the representatives of such. The only thing making a scene will do is lose the belligerents money. 

Not to mention, just about everyone not connected to the heavily online guitar scene has no idea. 

There's also the "online tough guy" factor. 

The reason that builders tend to always get away with this is that, in real life, the victims fall into two primary categories: those whom want to seek justice but have no resources, and those whom have resources, but wish to move on. The rare few that want to seek justice and have the resources, tend to lose speed with our slow and ineffective legal system when it comes to goods in this price bracket.


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## Fred the Shred (Jul 31, 2019)

Spending time in prison (with the option of deportation in you're not American, of course) is not what I'd call "sure fire way to solve issues and get money back", to be honest.


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## Mathemagician (Jul 31, 2019)

Unrelated to the brand in OP, but same topic. I just saw a “guitar brand/page” on my Instagram explore page called 10s guitars say that shipments would be delayed by a month because “EMG’s were lost en route to us due to unforeseen circumstances.”

Guess it’s just that time of year.


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## Steiner Kraus (Aug 10, 2019)

Yes, Big scam going on here guys.


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## Steiner Kraus (Aug 10, 2019)

KIMERA666 is Felipe Ruiz Botero?


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## skmanga (Aug 10, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Yes, Big scam going on here guys.


Thank you for confirming all suspicions.
Honest lad you are, and that does count for something


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## eggy in a bready (Aug 11, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Yes, Big scam going on here guys.


Lmao


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 11, 2019)

We've got it all now boys.

Doxing. Random new accounts.


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 11, 2019)

Xaios said:


> Time to revise the top-left square?



Yeah where’s Sabre Guitars?


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## prlgmnr (Aug 11, 2019)

I don't know why, but I love it when someone pops up in a thread about themselves, has never posted before and yet has an account from a few years ago.

Like, it shows foresight.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 11, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Yes, Big scam going on here guys.








Thank you and goodnight!


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## NeglectedField (Aug 11, 2019)

Reminds me of the runaround I had with Boult


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## skmanga (Aug 11, 2019)

"There isn't going to be a refund"


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## kisielk (Aug 11, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> Unrelated to the brand in OP, but same topic. I just saw a “guitar brand/page” on my Instagram explore page called 10s guitars say that shipments would be delayed by a month because “EMG’s were lost en route to us due to unforeseen circumstances.”
> 
> Guess it’s just that time of year.


It happens. The company I worked for had a $XXk shipment of synth components we had sent to a shop in Europe, the DHL truck got hijacked. Took almost a month to get reimbursed and we didn’t have enough stock to replace the ordered stuff for quite a while.


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## Flappydoodle (Aug 12, 2019)

USMarine75 said:


> All of these examples are why I just buy from known custom shops like Fender, PRS, Mayones, ESP, Framus, etc. If you need exotic and have the cash then companies like Daemoness. Too many horror stories...
> 
> Plus wtf I've seen and played a few of these smaller luthier's guitars and frankly my stock MIK Schecter Loomis blows them away in every category except uniqueness. YMMV
> 
> Good luck I really hope this ends well.



Even then, Dylan could get hit by a car or have whatever personal or business problems and Daemoness would be gone in months.

RAN was reliable, until they weren't.

This is a risk for any small business - especially the ones which rely on a single person.



Steiner Kraus said:


> Yes, Big scam going on here guys.



Lol. Don't bother explaining or anything...


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 12, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Yes, Big scam going on here guys.


Why even post anything if you aren't even going to up some excuse...where the customer is to blame?


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## Musiscience (Aug 12, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Yes, Big scam going on here guys.



Well... yes? 

Where is his guitar kit, or his money? Care to explain or deliver on time? 

I'm going to Alberta in 2 weeks. If the guitar exists can I pick it up and ship it to him if you have trouble doing so?


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## Steiner Kraus (Aug 12, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Well... yes?
> 
> Where is his guitar kit, or his money? Care to explain or deliver on time?
> 
> I'm going to Alberta in 2 weeks. If the guitar exists can I pick it up and ship it to him if you have trouble doing so?


Ok, lets meet up.


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## dmlinger (Aug 12, 2019)

I think many questions should be answered before anyone meets up with you. 

I mean, OP ran your name through the mud...is he telling the truth? Do you not feel the need to defend yourself? If not, then there probably isn't any need to meet up because we would all assume you don't have a guitar made for OP.


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## Steiner Kraus (Aug 12, 2019)

Its the internet, of course people will seek self help of forums, posts etc...Theres no need to defend myself at all. This is the internet, its full of characters. Shit happens. I can count on 90% of all new business folding within a year due to issues and so forth. 90% of people give up when the times get tough. Felipe Ruiz Botero (OP) may have had a bad experience, however, he had options. Unfortunately HE decided to let it last as long as it did. I did my best, and thats all i can do. All i can do now is focus on the other customers.


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## Steiner Kraus (Aug 12, 2019)

And another issue id like to clear up is customers filing for chargebacks with paypal a day before delivery, hoping to get their guitar and money refunded from Paypal and receive the parcel. I think businesses should be able to run customers' names thru the mud regarding their behavior, hence, an individual by the name of Russel Holly Jr. Orders a guitar and minutes before delivery, files for a chargeback on Paypal. So yes, i returned shipment of the parcel, caught it just in time. Yet this individual even goes one step further by posting pics of his young son on the couch crying that Steiner Kraus had ripped off a "young boy". Takes a pretty demented individual to do that.


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## kylendm (Aug 12, 2019)




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## Trainwreck (Aug 12, 2019)

There's no way Paypal will let you do a charge back that long after the original payment. Its 90 days tops. I've been on the wrong side of Paypal before and this is why I stopped using them. Did you refund the OP's money ?


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## Hollowway (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> 90% of people give up when the times get tough. Felipe Ruiz Botero (OP) may have had a bad experience, however, he had options. Unfortunately HE decided to let it last as long as it did. I did my best, and thats all i can do. All i can do now is focus on the other customers.



Can you clarify this sentence? It sounds like you're saying that HE is responsible for not calling BS on your excuses sooner. Is that what you mean? Excuse my reading into it, but right now you sound like you're disinterested in telling your side of the story, and are just planning on moving on to new customers, and are neither offering an apology, excuse, or alternative side to the issue. To someone who has been scammed before, like me, that makes me uneasy. I personally would not do business with you after what you've shown in this thread. You seem disinterested in customer service, your reputation, or insuring a future to your business. And that, to a potential customer, is scary.

EDIT: Also, why list his entire legal name here? That's a really bad move.


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## High Plains Drifter (Aug 13, 2019)

I'm not going to beg for details. Just from the flippant and ambiguous attitude of SK, I'll look elsewhere for a custom build. Some individuals or companies may not take forum communities seriously but this particular community has a great deal of integrity and that's something that SK isn't conveying very convincingly at this time.


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## Hollowway (Aug 13, 2019)

High Plains Drifter said:


> I'm not going to beg for details. Just from the flippant and ambiguous attitude of SK, I'll look elsewhere for a custom build. Some individuals or companies may not take forum communities seriously but this particular community has a great deal of integrity and that's something that SK isn't conveying very convincingly at this time.



That’s a good point. I don’t know why I’m even asking. If, after this many posts, he still hasn’t assuaged any fear, it’s not worth trying to get the whole picture. Time to move on and consider other luthiers.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 13, 2019)

Come on guys, being a builder is just so hard. You don't even get to choose the best customers.


----------



## Trainwreck (Aug 13, 2019)

High Plains Drifter said:


> I'm not going to beg for details. Just from the flippant and ambiguous attitude of SK, I'll look elsewhere for a custom build. Some individuals or companies may not take forum communities seriously but this particular community has a great deal of integrity and that's something that SK isn't conveying very convincingly at this time.


Your right, his attitude speaks volumes about his character. He's not taking any responsibility and even trying to blame the OP.


----------



## USMarine75 (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Its the internet, of course people will seek self help of forums, posts etc...Theres no need to defend myself at all. This is the internet, its full of characters. Shit happens. I can count on 90% of all new business folding within a year due to issues and so forth. 90% of people give up when the times get tough. Felipe Ruiz Botero (OP) may have had a bad experience, however, he had options. Unfortunately HE decided to let it last as long as it did. I did my best, and thats all i can do. All i can do now is focus on the other customers.





Steiner Kraus said:


> And another issue id like to clear up is customers filing for chargebacks with paypal a day before delivery, hoping to get their guitar and money refunded from Paypal and receive the parcel. I think businesses should be able to run customers' names thru the mud regarding their behavior, hence, an individual by the name of Russel Holly Jr. Orders a guitar and minutes before delivery, files for a chargeback on Paypal. So yes, i returned shipment of the parcel, caught it just in time. Yet this individual even goes one step further by posting pics of his young son on the couch crying that Steiner Kraus had ripped off a "young boy". Takes a pretty demented individual to do that.



I actually totally agree with @Steiner Kraus. I once had a guy named John David Smithson buy a pedal from me on Reverb. His social security number is 012-34-5678. He frequents gay bars, but he's not really sure of his gender identity. Good guitarist though, that John David Smithson of 10 Main St in Derry, NH... and smooth transaction.


----------



## Demiurge (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> (OP) may have had a bad experience, however, he had options. Unfortunately HE decided to let it last as long as it did. I did my best, and thats all i can do.



The OP's saying that he ordered something but never received it, but you're suggesting that he was responsible for the delay, "let[ting] it last as long as it did". Did he try to change specs late in the order? Were his payments not timely?


----------



## cwhitey2 (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> And another issue id like to clear up is customers filing for chargebacks with paypal a day before delivery, hoping to get their guitar and money refunded from Paypal and receive the parcel. I think businesses should be able to run customers' names thru the mud regarding their behavior, hence, an individual by the name of Russel Holly Jr. Orders a guitar and minutes before delivery, files for a chargeback on Paypal. So yes, i returned shipment of the parcel, caught it just in time. Yet this individual even goes one step further by posting pics of his young son on the couch crying that Steiner Kraus had ripped off a "young boy". Takes a pretty demented individual to do that.



This basically sounds like another guitar you couldn't deliver and the customer knew that.

I see a pattern here.


----------



## littlebadboy (Aug 13, 2019)

Hmm... sounds like somebody spent the money on something else...


----------



## Flappydoodle (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Its the internet, of course people will seek self help of forums, posts etc...Theres no need to defend myself at all. This is the internet, its full of characters. Shit happens. I can count on 90% of all new business folding within a year due to issues and so forth. 90% of people give up when the times get tough. Felipe Ruiz Botero (OP) may have had a bad experience, however, he had options. Unfortunately HE decided to let it last as long as it did. I did my best, and thats all i can do. All i can do now is focus on the other customers.



What?

The text message exchanges he posted are pretty clear

Steiner Kraus kept promising a guitar but didn't deliver. The customer asked for a refund. Steiner Kraus guitars refused to refund him.

That makes you, Steiner Kraus, a scammer. How else can you possibly describe it?

If you took on too many orders, or decided this build wasn't worth your time, etc - you can say so and most reasonable customers will accept a refund and say "ok". What is NOT cool is that Steiner Kraus continually promised to "post it next week", and then months go by with no guitar. 

Then, Steiner Kraus refused to refund a custom even when the guitar was months late, without any explanation.

As for your other whining, yeah, it's called "doing business". People steal from shops. People walk out of restaurants without paying. People commit insurance fraud. It's a cost of doing business and every business faces those challenges. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't be in business.

Edit: since you're a fan of name-dropping, I'm helping you with having google bring up this thread when searching for your name


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## Musiscience (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> Ok, lets meet up.



I’ll be in Edmonton all day on August 27th. I will be working but can take a moment at any time during the day or evening to meet. If you do have the product, I will arrange with OP to ship his item.

Steiner Kraus: please PM me to organise the meet time and place.

OP: please PM me to organise shipment (if SK does indeed deliver...)


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 13, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> I’ll be in Edmonton all day on August 27th. I will be working but can take a moment at any time during the day or evening to meet. If you do have the product, I will arrange with OP to ship his item.
> 
> Steiner Kraus: please PM me to organise the meet time and place.
> 
> OP: please PM me to organise shipment (if SK does indeed deliver...)


----------



## Musiscience (Aug 13, 2019)

cwhitey2 said:


>



Well, now he can’t say that he didn’t have all possible opportunities to deliver the product.

Let’s wait and see as I am serious about picking it up.


----------



## Bastian93 (Aug 13, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Well, now he can’t say that he didn’t have all possible opportunities to deliver the product.
> 
> Let’s wait and see as I am serious about picking it up.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Aug 13, 2019)

ah yes, another luthier to add to the sso luthier hall of shame thread.


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## Musiscience (Aug 13, 2019)

Bastian93 said:


> View attachment 71895



Wish I had a hybrid vehicle though


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## Xaios (Aug 13, 2019)

Steiner Kraus said:


> I did my best, and thats all i can do.


If this is you doing your best, then I'd hate to see what your guitars look like.


Steiner Kraus said:


> And another issue id like to clear up is customers filing for chargebacks with paypal a day before delivery, hoping to get their guitar and money refunded from Paypal and receive the parcel. I think businesses should be able to run customers' names thru the mud regarding their behavior, hence, an individual by the name of Russel Holly Jr. Orders a guitar and minutes before delivery, files for a chargeback on Paypal. So yes, i returned shipment of the parcel, caught it just in time. Yet this individual even goes one step further by posting pics of his young son on the couch crying that Steiner Kraus had ripped off a "young boy". Takes a pretty demented individual to do that.


You expect us to believe that, after months and months of delays on your part, the OP just _happened_ to file a charge-back the instant before you were about to deliver the product? Why should anyone here believe a word you have to say? Not only has the OP provided pretty compelling evidence that you're a scammer, evidence which you've provided nothing to counter, you even discredited yourself by saying he did a chargeback, something which is clearly impossible given the Paypal's refund time frame. Even if I didn't necessarily believe the OP's claims at first glance, your a) shitty attitude about the whole affair, and b) apparent attempt to lie about the payment situation really lends credence to his recounting of events.

It reminds me of a friend of mine who owns a local shop who once had an employee (who I was also friends with until it came to light what a shitty person he was) that stole thousands of dollars worth of merchandise from him. This person displayed zero remorse for his actions and actually said that the store owner should "Just get over it." Right now the only thing separating you from that is that you're still purporting to maintain your innocence, but your outright refusal to refute the OP's claims along with your apparent willingness to commit libel by claiming he made a charge-back when he clearly couldn't is quite telling. It's also painfully familiar, because we've already been through this song and dance around here enough times with other luthiers who all eventually showed their true colors to know better, so you're only fooling yourself if you think your business will emerge from this unscathed unless you change your tune.


----------



## PuriPuriPrisoner (Aug 13, 2019)

I love sso drama lol


----------



## Randy (Aug 13, 2019)

My suspicion is that the build either hasn't been as far along as SK implied, there were flaws he was hoping to resolve but hasn't found an opportunity to (or was unable to do) or the guitar sold to someone else and he hasn't made time to make a replacement. I don't think there's any explanation outside of that.

The stuff about not sending the guitar, anticipating there might be a chargeback the minute UPS rings his doorbell is absolutely not an excuse because you're open to that liability (if it's a legitimate concern at all) literally any time you ship a guitar to somebody. I don't see that or "I just didn't get a chance to make it to the post office for several months because life" as a viable excuse for driving the customer nuts and getting pelted with rotten vegetables online.

Anyway, everyone knows I don't condone piling on, so here's me saying that as usual. Short of an actual scam going on (which I personally doubt there is), the best solution is honesty and everybody getting over themselves and the personality conflicts to get this done. I don't think the answers from SK up until now are legitimate and regardless of how this goes, the customer deserves better than that.


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## JimF (Aug 13, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> I’ll be in Edmonton all day on August 27th. I will be working but can take a moment at any time during the day or evening to meet. If you do have the product, I will arrange with OP to ship his item.
> 
> Steiner Kraus: please PM me to organise the meet time and place.
> 
> OP: please PM me to organise shipment (if SK does indeed deliver...)



I feel that you need more recognition in this thread!



via Imgflip Meme Generator


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## Flappydoodle (Aug 13, 2019)

Xaios said:


> If this is you doing your best, then I'd hate to see what your guitars look like.
> 
> You expect us to believe that, after months and months of delays on your part, the OP just _happened_ to file a charge-back the instant before you were about to deliver the product? Why should anyone here believe a word you have to say? Not only has the OP provided pretty compelling evidence that you're a scammer, evidence which you've provided nothing to counter, you even discredited yourself by saying he did a chargeback, something which is clearly impossible given the Paypal's refund time frame. Even if I didn't necessarily believe the OP's claims at first glance, your a) shitty attitude about the whole affair, and b) apparent attempt to lie about the payment situation really lends credence to his recounting of events.
> 
> It reminds me of a friend of mine who owns a local shop who once had an employee (who I was also friends with until it came to light what a shitty person he was) that stole thousands of dollars worth of merchandise from him. This person displayed zero remorse for his actions and actually said that the store owner should "Just get over it." Right now the only thing separating you from that is that you're still purporting to maintain your innocence, but your outright refusal to refute the OP's claims along with your apparent willingness to commit libel by claiming he made a charge-back when he clearly couldn't is quite telling. It's also painfully familiar, because we've already been through this song and dance around here enough times with other luthiers who all eventually showed their true colors to know better, so you're only fooling yourself if you think your business will emerge from this unscathed unless you change your tune.



Think you're getting muddled there. His story of a customer reversing charges is ANOTHER, completely unrelated customer who he is name-dropping and bad-mouthing for no apparent reason. Steiner Kraus is just whining in general. That story had nothing to do with OP who posted on SSO.

OP's story is very, very simple. He paid Steiner Kraus for a guitar. Steiner Kraus lied about the progress of the guitar, continually promising to post it "soon" or "next week" and then not doing that. When the customer requested a refund, Steiner Kraus said "there will be no refund". OP posted the text message chats and they're pretty self-explanatory.


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## Trainwreck (Aug 13, 2019)

The UPS meme made my whole week. Well done Sir, well done.


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## Matt08642 (Aug 14, 2019)




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## Xaios (Aug 14, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> Think you're getting muddled there. His story of a customer reversing charges is ANOTHER, completely unrelated customer who he is name-dropping and bad-mouthing for no apparent reason. Steiner Kraus is just whining in general. That story had nothing to do with OP who posted on SSO.


Ah yes, re-reading the thread shows this is correct. My mistake on that one. However, name dropping another completely unrelated customer just to bad mouth them, someone that we here a) can't even be sure actually exists, and b) may have had his own issues with SK leading up to doing a charge-back, is still incredibly unprofessional. It's a deflection that seems intended to pull attention away from the scrutiny brought about by OP's chronicle of events, one that SK seems unwilling and unable to dispute. It's a whataboutism.


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## mastapimp (Aug 14, 2019)

Xaios said:


> a) can't even be sure actually exists


I too was skeptical, but then i did a quick facebook search and found the guy. I didn't bother to dig through his posts to find the video of him bitching, but he fits the description as a metal guitarist/fan. Add an L to his first name and an E to the last name and you'll get there.


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## Musiscience (Aug 14, 2019)

I am currently speaking / in contact with SK. Will update you guys when there is news or resolution.


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## KIMERA666 (Aug 14, 2019)

Just for clarification, I never changed the specs of my order and as some others have pointed out, PayPal doesn’t open claims after this long.


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## BryanM7 (Aug 14, 2019)

G


Musiscience said:


> I am currently speaking / in contact with SK. Will update you guys when there is news or resolution.



Good on you for trying to make this happen. I am very interested to see if this gets resolved.


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 16, 2019)

Hey Steve with sk , Russell Holley jr here , so sorry you have to use me as a sorry excuse for your scam and poor business, but I won the PayPal case because yes it showed delivered in Atlanta hub then FedEx said you requested the package back after it was shipped with a different tracking number for your return you requested, so that you thought PayPal would believe it was delivered and not favor me in the dispute , what you didnt count on was me putting PayPal agent on 3 way call with a FedEx agent and FedEx explaining you requested it back and it was never intended to be delivered, also please explain to me how not yours but FedEx's shipping weight for a guitar was case only weighed 7lb ( my snakebyte weight is 34lbs in case ) , also can you please explain why one music store owner and his business partner never received there guitars which were paid in full as mine was ( not gonna mention names you know would kinda be wrong to do ) along with another music store that was going to be a dealer for you and ordered numerous guitars from you as agian no product was ever produced, as far as my son you fucking asshole little bitch, he picked that guitar out with me the one I paid for and ordered from you he wanted that guitar and yes he did cry when I told it wasn't coming so fuck you on that , fellow guitarists in the forum SK is a joke , and please as after I noticed my name was being thrown out there I went ahead and made a Facebook page steiner kraus guitars is a fraud page go give it a like , and you will see how Steve says he ships guitars in a case with a label no box just case lol .

SMASHES GUITAR, WALKS OFF STAGE. \m/


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 16, 2019)

mastapimp said:


> I too was skeptical, but then i did a quick facebook search and found the guy. I didn't bother to dig through his posts to find the video of him bitching, but he fits the description as a metal guitarist/fan. Add an L to his first name and an E to the last name and you'll get there.


 I see I have a stalker lol


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## Xaios (Aug 16, 2019)

Russellholleyjr said:


> I went ahead and made a Facebook page steiner kraus guitars is a fraud


Tried to look up this page you speak of, no results.


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 16, 2019)

See below


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 16, 2019)




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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 16, 2019)

Fyi how did I find this let's just say friends , awesome really good guitar friends, by the way thanks for the add guys. Funny how I was talking to all the members of three days grace last night from Canada and they never heard of your Canadian company SK.


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## prlgmnr (Aug 17, 2019)

Russellholleyjr said:


> Hey Steve with sk , Russell Holley jr here , so sorry you have to use me as a sorry excuse for your scam and poor business, but I won the PayPal case because yes it showed delivered in Atlanta hub then FedEx said you requested the package back after it was shipped with a different tracking number for your return you requested, so that you thought PayPal would believe it was delivered and not favor me in the dispute , what you didnt count on was me putting PayPal agent on 3 way call with a FedEx agent and FedEx explaining you requested it back and it was never intended to be delivered, also please explain to me how not yours but FedEx's shipping weight for a guitar was case only weighed 7lb ( my snakebyte weight is 34lbs in case ) , also can you please explain why one music store owner and his business partner never received there guitars which were paid in full as mine was ( not gonna mention names you know would kinda be wrong to do ) along with another music store that was going to be a dealer for you and ordered numerous guitars from you as agian no product was ever produced, as far as my son you fucking asshole little bitch, he picked that guitar out with me the one I paid for and ordered from you he wanted that guitar and yes he did cry when I told it wasn't coming so fuck you on that , fellow guitarists in the forum SK is a joke , and please as after I noticed my name was being thrown out there I went ahead and made a Facebook page steiner kraus guitars is a fraud page go give it a like , and you will see how Steve says he ships guitars in a case with a label no box just case lol .
> 
> SMASHES GUITAR, WALKS OFF STAGE. \m/


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## Musiscience (Aug 19, 2019)

So here is the last and latest update in this Steiner Kraus guitars saga. I gave SK my word that I would not post until he told me if he would follow through or not, I kept it. 

After a week of communication, SK has decided not to meet with me and deliver the product. He is saying that he does not care about how people see his brand anymore. My impression is that there was no product to be delivered to begin with and they were only trying to buy more time. 

He first tried to tell me that OP pictures were photoshopped and that he removed the parts about the payment not being complete. This was disproved by OP sending me both the agreed price with SK and proof of payment. Furthermore, there is no sign at all of photoshopping outside of a possible crop. The argument of these two customers being mentally ill has also come up, but that's completely irrelevant to me considering. 

I finally suggested to him to defend his case here with proof or to deliver the product, and that delivering the product would be preferable for his brand reputation. Neither came to fruition. 

OP: the business is registered with the Candian Government. Should you wish to file a formal complaint, I will send you the information in PM.


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## KIMERA666 (Aug 19, 2019)

Thanks musiscience for your help, Now I’m just wondering how many others has he scammed that haven’t come forward. I just hope word gets around about this thief so this won’t happen to anyone else.


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 19, 2019)

Share your stories here also 
https://www.facebook.com/Steiner-kraus-guitars-is-a-fruad-2378898988996462/


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## Albake21 (Aug 19, 2019)

Thanks for the amazing read guys, made my week and it's only Monday. Also sorry OP and Russel for having to deal with this asshat.


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 19, 2019)

Isn't this the brand Jeff Loomis was getting a guitar made from in the last year or 2?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 19, 2019)

cwhitey2 said:


> Isn't this the brand Jeff Loomis was getting a guitar made from in the last year or 2?



Jesus I completely forgot about that.


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## Marty666 (Aug 19, 2019)

Pretty sure there used to be a website as well but it's nowhere to be found. Just FB presence now.

Another strike against small custom builder faith. Glad my Skerv build is going smoothly, can't imagine how something like this must feel.


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 19, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Jesus I completely forgot about that.


I don't recall him ever getting his guitar either


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 19, 2019)

Marty666 said:


> Pretty sure there used to be a website as well but it's nowhere to be found. Just FB presence now.
> 
> Another strike against small custom builder faith. Glad my Skerv build is going smoothly, can't imagine how something like this must feel.


https://www.steinerkrausguitars.com/

Looks to be dead.


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## AC.Lin (Aug 19, 2019)

@Steiner Kraus
I assume you know and understand that when i now google "Steiner Kraus Guitars", this thread appears on the first page of the search results, right ?
It might be in your best interests to solve this in a professional way or else this terrible advertisement will follow you for a *very long time*.

If you cannot deliver the product you got paid for, you need to refund the customer. Otherwise you cannot pretend that you did your best. End of the story.

Also, disclosing the real name of a customer and claiming that he tried to scam you using the paypal refund, even though it's impossible due to the 90d limit .... come on, man.

Internet is the biggest window to your business, right now you're shooting yourself in the foot. Think about what you're doing.


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 19, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> https://www.steinerkrausguitars.com/
> 
> Looks to be dead.


Has been for awhile


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## Flappydoodle (Aug 19, 2019)

AC.Lin said:


> @Steiner Kraus
> I assume you know and understand that when i now google "Steiner Kraus Guitars", this thread appears on the first page of the search results, right ?
> It might be in your best interests to solve this in a professional way or else this terrible advertisement will follow you for a *very long time*.
> 
> ...



To be honest, kinda feels like we're past that

Steiner Kraus guitars seems to have gone out of business. Website is dead. And Mr Steiner Kraus didn't even bother posting here to defend himself other than pointing the fingers at a bunch of others. He didn't have any real excuses why the guitar wasn't delivered.

And from what @Musicscience says, Steiner Kraus doesn't even really care about the company any more. "He is saying that he does not care about how people see his brand anymore."

So yeah. Add this to the dodgy/defunct sellers list.

Do we know the name of the luthier/owner of Steiner Kraus Guitars? Is Steiner Kraus his actual name? Because these scammer guys have a tendency to keep popping back up again under new names.


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## Musiscience (Aug 19, 2019)

AC.Lin said:


> @Steiner Kraus
> I assume you know and understand that when i now google "Steiner Kraus Guitars", this thread appears on the first page of the search results, right ?
> It might be in your best interests to solve this in a professional way or else this terrible advertisement will follow you for a *very long time*.
> 
> ...



We really tried, but I strongly doubt he really cares at this point. 

In his own words: 

"it really does not bother me anymore how people would like to speak about me or my business practices on the internet". 

He seemed like a nice enough person on the phone. I'm sure at least a part of him know that what he's doing is just not ok.


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 19, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> We really tried, but I strongly doubt he really cares at this point.
> 
> In his own words:
> 
> ...



There is a Michael g Clark and a Stephen Grant that seems to be heavily associated with whatever is going on


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 19, 2019)

Russellholleyjr said:


> There is a Michael g Clark and a Stephen Grant that seems to be heavily associated with whatever is going on



Seems to be a ponzi scheme from info I have gathered, numerous people that I've spoken with have never received a refund luckily I did because they waited to long.


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## Musiscience (Aug 19, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> To be honest, kinda feels like we're past that
> 
> Steiner Kraus guitars seems to have gone out of business. Website is dead. And Mr Steiner Kraus didn't even bother posting here to defend himself other than pointing the fingers at a bunch of others. He didn't have any real excuses why the guitar wasn't delivered.
> 
> ...



The person I spoke to was named Steven, but I didn't get a last name. Not trying to drag his name the mud or anything, but I'm posting it just in case it might help avoid potential future fraud.

Really sad this could not get resolved and have a happy customer and business in the end.

Edit: not Steven, but Stephen Grant it seems.


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## kisielk (Aug 20, 2019)

The "Our Story" section of their Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/steinerkraus/) is... interesting:



> Dear customers and followers! Please make sure any agreements are followed thru with email confirmations. ([email protected]) Including order updates, etc. Sending a message elsewhere does not guarantee a reply or even that it will be seen. Ive been way to busy working in the shop and just cant keep up with the social media inquiries, comments, etc. These social media channels are more for entertainment and should not be considered an official communication channel. For any kind of personal inquiries regarding your frustrations or mental delusions please contact a local Psychiatrist, they will be willing to sit and listen. As I personally could not care anymore to get involved in such drama. I.MAKE.GUITARS.


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## Seabeast2000 (Aug 20, 2019)

Standard boilerplate llc legalese.


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## eggy in a bready (Aug 20, 2019)

> I.MAKE.GUITARS.


false advertisement?


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## USMarine75 (Aug 20, 2019)

LOL... that's just what I'd want to see if I had given them a deposit.

They have a Reverb shop too:
https://reverb.com/shop/steiners-gear-garage

And Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/steiner_kraus_guitars/?hl=en

And Twitter:
https://twitter.com/steinerkraus?lang=en​
^Should anyone want to comment on their pages. 

Also, there is a person on that says he has a partnership with a "client" to paint guitars for him and they are somehow involved in charitable donations. I'd be interested if that is also a scam...

Pbliz @ https://k2forums.com/discussion/12149/multicam-guitars: "The backs are dipped to match the fronts. If anyone is interested client sells guitars worldwide @ https://steinerkrausguitars.com/ The Multicam dipped guitars will be going to a great cause as well as sold online."​


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## Musiscience (Aug 20, 2019)

The906 said:


> Standard boilerplate llc legalese.


Next thing you know, on Sweetwater front page...


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## Joshua Ringer (Aug 21, 2019)

Well well, so glad I found this. Been waiting since March of 2018.


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## ikarus (Aug 21, 2019)

Russellholleyjr said:


> See below



you spelled "fruad" instead of fraud, thats why nobody can find it on fb...


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 21, 2019)

ikarus said:


> you spelled "fruad" instead of fraud, thats why nobody can find it on fb...


Yes I did it wont let me change it so I took it down and started a group, people who have been ripped off by steiner kraus guitars


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## Russellholleyjr (Aug 21, 2019)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/463060784537772/


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## AxeHappy (Aug 21, 2019)

As someone who suffers from some pretty severe mental illness and has a collection of custom guitar worth more than most people make in a year and has had wonderful interactions with several different builders:

I just like to give a big Fuck You for throwing "mentally ill" people under the bus because you can't do your fucking job. 

You are a complete piece of shit.


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## Musiscience (Aug 22, 2019)

AxeHappy said:


> As someone who suffers from some pretty severe mental illness and has a collection of custom guitar worth more than most people make in a year and has had wonderful interactions with several different builders:
> 
> I just like to give a big Fuck You for throwing "mentally ill" people under the bus because you can't do your fucking job.
> 
> You are a complete piece of shit.



Amen!


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## USMarine75 (Aug 22, 2019)

AxeHappy said:


> As someone who suffers from some pretty severe mental illness and has a collection of custom guitar worth more than most people make in a year and has had wonderful interactions with several different builders:
> 
> I just like to give a big Fuck You for throwing "mentally ill" people under the bus because you can't do your fucking job.
> 
> You are a complete piece of shit.



Threesomes aren't mental illness.


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## Andromalia (Aug 26, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> Think you're getting muddled there. His story of a customer reversing charges is ANOTHER, completely unrelated customer who he is name-dropping and bad-mouthing for no apparent reason. Steiner Kraus is just whining in general. That story had nothing to do with OP who posted on SSO.



Yeah, but given you can only do chargebacks up to 6 months and that SK seems to be unable to deliver in that time frame, it's likely just another fib.


----------



## Aumann (Aug 29, 2019)

Honestly, the fact people here say there's so many problems with custom orders scares me. 

I ordered a custom guitar from a smaller Luthier a while ago. Now i'm holding my heart until i have the guitar in my hands and it plays well haha. 

That being said, his communication was good and while there were delays, i got pictures consistently along the way and regular contact through FB. So i'm not tooooo worried, but still


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Aug 29, 2019)

There are still plenty of good trustworthy small luthiers but nothing counts until you have a working guitar in your hands. I've been duped by fancy pictures before.


----------



## Aumann (Aug 29, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> There are still plenty of good trustworthy small luthiers but nothing counts until you have a working guitar in your hands. I've been duped by fancy pictures before.



I put my trust in the fact he made guitars for David Maxim Micic and has been a student of Michael Tobias. But as proven by other stories, that doesn't always say much.

Anyone has any experience with Wood Guerilla guitars? Anyway, mine should be arriving next week, if it's good i'll make a NGD post , if not, i'll make a drama post haha


----------



## KIMERA666 (Sep 21, 2019)

Here he is at it again , taken directly from his Facebook 

“
Since the beginning of Steiner Kraus Guitars in 2015, our main focus has always been and will always be making quality instruments from only the finest of cuts from the best tone woods available. We’ve been fortunate to supply instruments to some of the worlds most prestigious players.. and some of the most talented of hobbyists out there. We have made it through some big ups and big downs as a company. 

Today we start a new chapter in Steiner Kraus Guitars.

We have made a few long overdue changes in the family here at SK Guitars. We are under NEW MANAGEMENT after a challenging past year full of miscommunications and missed deadlines. With half the management gone, everything has been solely leaning on Steev, our builder/craftsman. Needless to say, that has caused conflict within the company as well as outside of it. We sincerely apologize for all inconvenience that this transitional period has caused anyone. 

We are back up to 100% with a proper customer service team, new sales team, and a properly backed and supported workshop. You can expect the same level of integrity and craftsmanship from SK guitars as always with Steev still heading operations in our workshop. 

We will be announcing a new ordering system and procedure in the coming days that will streamline and clearly lay out pricing and what is available from our exclusive supply of beautiful tone woods.

With operations running at full speed with full support, all orders will be fulfilled as promised per our signed terms and agreement contracts from this day forward. 

Thank you for your patience and understanding through this most challenging time. Please feel free to reach out privately with any questions or concerns and we’ll get back to you as soon as possible!

- The Steiner Kraus Family and Crew -”


Yet when I asked about past costumers who paid in full and never got their items , he decides to erase my comments and block me of his Facebook page.


----------



## Hollowway (Sep 22, 2019)

Hahaha, so typical of these guys. To his credit, at least he didn’t say he had health issues, too. There is no “management” or “customer service team.” This is a small operation. It’s typical for businesses like this to try to sound like a big operation, but it’s really just a few people and/or family members. It isn’t a giant operation with the CEO out of touch with the franchise locations, or call centers, or layers of management. It’s one guy fucking up orders, spending the business capital on personal things, and having poor communication. And then narcissism sets in, and he rationalizes that’s lots of businesses do this, and that skeptical customers are the ones in the wrong.


----------



## High Plains Drifter (Sep 22, 2019)

KIMERA666 said:


> ...full of miscommunications and missed deadlines.





KIMERA666 said:


> You can expect the same level of integrity and craftsmanship from SK guitars as always...



uuh... okay?


----------



## cwhitey2 (Sep 22, 2019)

KIMERA666 said:


> Here he is at it again , taken directly from his Facebook
> 
> “
> Since the beginning of Steiner Kraus Guitars in 2015, our main focus has always been and will always be making quality instruments from only the finest of cuts from the best tone woods available. We’ve been fortunate to supply instruments to some of the worlds most prestigious players.. and some of the most talented of hobbyists out there. We have made it through some big ups and big downs as a company.
> ...


They made promises! Im getting in line immediately!


----------



## kisielk (Sep 22, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Hahaha, so typical of these guys. To his credit, at least he didn’t say he had health issues, too. There is no “management” or “customer service team.” This is a small operation. It’s typical for businesses like this to try to sound like a big operation, but it’s really just a few people and/or family members. It isn’t a giant operation with the CEO out of touch with the franchise locations, or call centers, or layers of management. It’s one guy fucking up orders, spending the business capital on personal things, and having poor communication. And then narcissism sets in, and he rationalizes that’s lots of businesses do this, and that skeptical customers are the ones in the wrong.


LOL yeah... I work for a small/mid-size synth manufacturer and even we don't have the luxury of having a "customer service team", that's something that's just a shared duty amongst everyone who's also doing QA etc. There's no way a small custom guitar builder like that is going to have more than a couple of employees, and they'll all better be involved in production, otherwise how would you even afford to pay them?


----------



## Musiscience (Sep 23, 2019)

So Steev went from telling me he doesn’t care about his brand anymore to this statement? 

Somebody should link this thread in the comments.


----------



## KIMERA666 (Sep 23, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> So Steev went from telling me he doesn’t care about his brand anymore to this statement?
> 
> Somebody should link this thread in the comments.


I tried, he erased the post and blocked me; if someone else can post it , we could see if he keeps blocking people.


----------



## KIMERA666 (Sep 23, 2019)

It would also be a public service announcement, so none gets scammed by this guy again.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Sep 23, 2019)

KIMERA666 said:


> Here he is at it again , taken directly from his Facebook
> 
> “
> Since the beginning of Steiner Kraus Guitars in 2015, our main focus has always been and will always be making quality instruments from only the finest of cuts from the best tone woods available. We’ve been fortunate to supply instruments to some of the worlds most prestigious players.. and some of the most talented of hobbyists out there. We have made it through some big ups and big downs as a company.
> ...




"We at Steiner Kraus have changed nothing and we're the same 2 or 3 blokes we always were, but allow us to spew some pre-generated corporate-ish nonsense to trick gullible people into giving us more money. Allow us to showcase our good faith via blocking a customer who got shafted and will never see his money back!"

Legit, as per usual.


----------



## Aumann (Sep 24, 2019)

They insta blocked me upon mentioning anything related to problematic orders, haha, seriously this is shite.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Sep 24, 2019)

Aumann said:


> They insta blocked me upon mentioning anything related to problematic orders, haha, seriously this is shite.



Insta blocked you? Now that is some FAST customer service action right there, eh? Totally safe to order now, then!


----------



## Aumann (Sep 24, 2019)

Fred the Shred said:


> Insta blocked you? Now that is some FAST customer service action right there, eh? Totally safe to order now, then!



I want to place an order, cause i can't now because i'm blocked! Customer lost i guess 

Seriously though, i see people commenting on their page that they want to order, i don't know why anyone would risk it.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Sep 24, 2019)

They did you a favour then - how can one possibly fault the customer service!


----------



## Nicki (Sep 26, 2019)

KIMERA666 said:


> You can expect the same level of integrity and craftsmanship from SK guitars


Which is clearly none at all.


----------



## Russellholleyjr (Oct 4, 2019)

Steiner kraus guitars has now changed there name to Mørk Verden guitars.


----------



## spudmunkey (Oct 4, 2019)

Fred the Shred said:


> They did you a favour then - how can one possibly fault the customer service!


----------



## Passtheapathy (Oct 5, 2019)

Russellholleyjr said:


> Steiner kraus guitars has now changed there name to Mørk Verden guitars.



WOW...


----------



## Musiscience (Oct 5, 2019)

Is it possible to change the name of the thread to also include Mørk Verden?

Edit: kindly asked on the FB post to honor his previous engagement. Let's wait and see if that leads to any resolution.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Oct 5, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Is it possible to change the name of the thread to also include Mørk Verden?
> 
> Edit: kindly asked on the FB post to honor his previous engagement. Let's wait and see if that leads to any resolution.



Gotcha


----------



## Musiscience (Oct 5, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Gotcha



Thanks!


----------



## Hollowway (Oct 5, 2019)

Is there a "reality luthierie" genre? Because between this thread, the Tosin thread, and the BC Rich thread, these things are very engaging. The thread title changes alone are entertaining enough to be Oscar worthy!


----------



## Splenetic (Oct 5, 2019)

Yeh this is like the best worst roller coaster evar.


----------



## Russellholleyjr (Oct 6, 2019)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/463060784537772/ let's grow this group


----------



## cyril v (Oct 9, 2019)

Tale as old as time.


----------



## KIMERA666 (Oct 9, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Is it possible to change the name of the thread to also include Mørk Verden?
> 
> Edit: kindly asked on the FB post to honor his previous engagement. Let's wait and see if that leads to any resolution.


Did you get any response???


----------



## Musiscience (Oct 10, 2019)

KIMERA666 said:


> Did you get any response???



Yes, he said he will be addressing old orders and issues. Let's keep fingers crossed they do right by you guys.


----------



## Russellholleyjr (Dec 10, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Yes, he said he will be addressing old orders and issues. Let's keep fingers crossed they do right by you guys.


Ever get anywhere with them.


----------



## Musiscience (Dec 10, 2019)

Russellholleyjr said:


> Ever get anywhere with them.



Unfortunately, no. Threads like these make a good case for ordering from trusted sellers/luthiers.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Dec 11, 2019)

Musiscience said:


> Unfortunately, no. Threads like these make a good case for ordering from trusted sellers/luthiers.



In theory yes. But it's a risk you have to be willing to take, regardless

RAN was highly trusted. But they delayed orders, then disappeared. Combination of health issues and inevitable small business issues

Even Daemoness just put out a pretty shitty guitar after the guy waited 5 years and paid $4,500 for it

If you're going the custom guitar route, you can never be 100% "safe". 

But judging by what I've seen, this Mork Verden guy and Steiner Kraus guitars totally deserve their horrible reputation. His responses in this thread, including doxxing another customer, are pretty shocking.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 11, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> In theory yes. But it's a risk you have to be willing to take, regardless
> 
> RAN was highly trusted. But they delayed orders, then disappeared. Combination of health issues and inevitable small business issues
> 
> ...





Adding to that:

I think there's an important distinction between trust and probable risk. 

I trust that [insert small luthiery business] will deliver a great guitar based on the history and output of the brand, but doesn't mean that they aren't subject to risks associated with being a small business with a single or couple of key employees. But the risk is still greater vs. a larger more established shop, regardless of how much faith I have in the builder. 

If I order a Suhr or Anderson, even if (Dio forbid) something unfortunate happens to John or Tom or they just decide they want to retire to live on a beach in Fiji, there is a whole established enterprise to service my order, and even more important, a network of established, hand-picked dealers to assist in making me whole.


----------



## Jarmake (Dec 11, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> In theory yes. But it's a risk you have to be willing to take, regardless
> 
> RAN was highly trusted. But they delayed orders, then disappeared. Combination of health issues and inevitable small business issues
> 
> ...



Any links to the bad daemoness -case?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 11, 2019)

Jarmake said:


> Any links to the bad daemoness -case?



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-daemoness-cimmerian.338710/


----------



## Randy (Dec 11, 2019)

Thread title still sounds like a warning about a guy that's gonna touch your pee pee.


----------



## Randy (Dec 11, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Adding to that:
> 
> I think there's an important distinction between trust and probable risk.
> 
> ...



Unless it's Kiesel, and they fuck something up and still decide to make your life miserable despite the fact they could run off another guitar for you in a couple hours.


----------



## NoodleFace (Dec 11, 2019)

What was the kiesel drama again? I completely forgot.

I bought a custom (used) that was built by a small custom shop, Bowes. I think the owners posts here too. But anyways, even having a used custom guitar Brian Bowes was answering emails to me and going out of his way for me and I wasn't even a paying customer. He even offered to change his website to list me as the owner of the guitar. The guitar got damaged in shipping and he provided proof of the value of the guitar to me to give to UPS. 

Why is it so hard for these other guys to communicate? Even if it's at night after they're done working for the day, how hard is it to respond to an email?


----------



## Adieu (Dec 11, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> In theory yes. But it's a risk you have to be willing to take, regardless
> 
> RAN was highly trusted. But they delayed orders, then disappeared. Combination of health issues and inevitable small business issues
> 
> ...



Sure you can

Fender, Gibson, PRS, ESP, Kiesel, etc.

...you might bitch and moan about having expected a moar divine neck profile or something, but they almost surely won't run off to rehab after having snorted all your money off hookers.


Yeah-yeah, we all know you want the Tesla of guitars from some innovative boutique bourgie whatever... but if you want to take delivery as expected, maybe order the Ford instead????


----------



## Flappydoodle (Dec 11, 2019)

Adieu said:


> Sure you can
> 
> Fender, Gibson, PRS, ESP, Kiesel, etc.
> 
> ...



Yes, very true. I should have specified "small builder custom guitar". And "one man army" builders are the riskiest. PRS, ESP etc are all fine if you go through custom shops.


----------



## Randy (Dec 11, 2019)

Remember that time Jackson sent a dude a guitar with 23 frets tho?


----------



## Adieu (Dec 11, 2019)

Randy said:


> Remember that time Jackson sent a dude a guitar with 23 frets tho?



23 consecutive and in correct playable placement? or 1of24 missing from a random slot? Or multiple frets out of position due to miscalculation across the board?

If consecutive --- are we sure he didn't accidentally send in an order form with a typo that spec'd it like that?

And... did they respond somehow or ignore him?


PS btw, yes I recalled hearing some complaints about Jackson, which is part of the reason they're not on the list above


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 11, 2019)

Adieu said:


> 23 consecutive and in correct placement, or 1of24 missing from the slot?
> 
> Are we sure he didn't accidentally send in an order form with a typo that spec'd it like that?
> 
> And... did they respond somehow or ignore him?



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-jackson-custom-shop.251619/

IIRC wasn't Jackson's CS going through some shit around that time?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 11, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-jackson-custom-shop.251619/
> 
> IIRC wasn't Jackson's CS going through some shit around that time?



This is why quality matters. 

It's been nearly a decade and folks still bring up this guitar like it happened yesterday. 

Anyone who thinks folks are being tough on builders needs to remember this. The internet doesn't forget this easily.


----------



## Fred the Shred (Dec 12, 2019)

Yeah, that guitar was a complete shitshow. There's a reason the internet isn't too forgiving with this sort of thing.


----------



## cip 123 (Dec 12, 2019)

Randy said:


> Remember that time Jackson sent a dude a guitar with 23 frets tho?


What about that time they sent one with 25?


----------



## possumkiller (Dec 12, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> What about that time they sent one with 25?


USA BCR 7s used to come stock with 25 frets I think.


----------



## Albake21 (Dec 12, 2019)

cip 123 said:


> What about that time they sent one with 25?


See that's a mistake I'd actually be okay with. More frets is fine, but 23.... well that's literally limiting.


----------



## kisielk (Dec 12, 2019)

I'd actually be happy to receive an extra fret, assuming it didn't mean the pickup placement was bungled up or anything


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 12, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> This is why quality matters.
> 
> It's been nearly a decade and folks still bring up this guitar like it happened yesterday.
> 
> Anyone who thinks folks are being tough on builders needs to remember this. The internet doesn't forget this easily.



Wasn't there another fuck up? Like someone waited 2 or 3 years for a Kelly 7-string, and when be recieved it, it had a massive crack in the fretboard.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 12, 2019)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wasn't there another fuck up? Like someone waited 2 or 3 years for a Kelly 7-string, and when be recieved it, it had a massive crack in the fretboard.



Yeah, I believe so, but it wasn't really completely Jackson's fault. You run that risk whenever you ship real black ebony across the globe.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Dec 12, 2019)

Trying to find the post about the defunct swirl painter who got into all sorts of mess and many lost their guitars. I think it was yesterday. Anyone know where it is?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 12, 2019)

The906 said:


> Trying to find the post about the defunct swirl painter who got into all sorts of mess and many lost their guitars. I think it was yesterday. Anyone know where it is?



Courtney 2018?


----------



## spudmunkey (Dec 12, 2019)

The906 said:


> Trying to find the post about the defunct swirl painter who got into all sorts of mess and many lost their guitars. I think it was yesterday. Anyone know where it is?



https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/sso-rate-your-7-string-guitars.339422/page-2#post-5079477 ?


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Dec 12, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/sso-rate-your-7-string-guitars.339422/page-2#post-5079477 ?


Dats it. Thx.


----------



## oracles (Dec 12, 2019)

The906 said:


> Trying to find the post about the defunct swirl painter who got into all sorts of mess and many lost their guitars. I think it was yesterday. Anyone know where it is?



That's livewire, I'm about 1 of 50 or so people that got scammed by him.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Dec 12, 2019)

oracles said:


> That's livewire, I'm about 1 of 50 or so people that got scammed by him.


Wow man. I know it's grief faded but I'm sorry you had to go through that.


----------



## AxeHappy (Dec 13, 2019)

I sent him the hardware from four guitars to powder coat. Took well over a year and I am one of the lucky ones who actually got their back. Might be one of the last things he shipped from his shop.


----------



## Mitch_320 (Jan 30, 2020)

This guys name is Steve hadikan, he had a motorcycle shop for a couple months in trail bc called black hawk choppers, I worked there for a few months, he never payed his employees, people would pay for parts and he would make excuses as to why they weren't ordered, he took parts off of a bike a customer would bring in and put it on another customer's.... long story short he scammed alot of people took the money and disappeared... then I found out he had a furniture bussiness in Nelson bc making customs tables and stuff as far as I know it went the same way as the bike shop... that was the last I heard up until my brother sent me the link for this, I signed up just to write this... I remember him and the sailor tattoo he also claimed he was a paratrooper in thr army but when I was going through canada revienue or whatever he used his military record as proof of what a stand up guy he was which it turned out he was just in the reserves. Either this guy lies about everything and owes alot of people money...


KIMERA666 said:


> I’m writing this post to warn you about the lack of professionalism and ethics of Steiner Kraus guitars. Back in June 2018 Steiner Kraus started offering DIY kits of his models, so I contacted him regarding a kit of his valkerye model. On June 13th, 2018 I purchased a valkerye DIY kit 7 strings with tremolo, during the following months there was a good communication with him and his company, which included pictures of the build progress up to November 2018, after this date communication with him or his company hasn´t been efficient.
> 
> On January 5th, 2019 Steiner Kraus replied one of my messages saying that the build will be completed in 9 days, despite the fact that this was meant to be a build that would take a couple of months. On January 14th, 2019, He called me via Facebook messenger telling me that he was sorry for the delay and that the build was in progress. On February 7th He replied another of my messages saying that he will be "... spending today here to get organized with all my customers and send pictures off... Including yourself". No pictures were sent. On March 20th he replied to me "… finishing up all 7 strings this week. Will have a shipping day for you on Friday morning". No information was given that week, no shipping information or pictures.
> 
> ...


----------



## Musiscience (Jan 31, 2020)

Mitch_320 said:


> This guys name is Steve hadikan, he had a motorcycle shop for a couple months in trail bc called black hawk choppers, I worked there for a few months, he never payed his employees, people would pay for parts and he would make excuses as to why they weren't ordered, he took parts off of a bike a customer would bring in and put it on another customer's.... long story short he scammed alot of people took the money and disappeared... then I found out he had a furniture bussiness in Nelson bc making customs tables and stuff as far as I know it went the same way as the bike shop... that was the last I heard up until my brother sent me the link for this, I signed up just to write this... I remember him and the sailor tattoo he also claimed he was a paratrooper in thr army but when I was going through canada revienue or whatever he used his military record as proof of what a stand up guy he was which it turned out he was just in the reserves. Either this guy lies about everything and owes alot of people money...



Thanks for posting this. I knew something was wrong when I tried meeting up in person and he just kept delaying and making excuses. These guitars probably never even existed or went as parts on other people's build. At least with your post those who were scammed have some sort of closure and confirmation they are not alone/targeted. 

It's crazy how few consequences you get here in Canada for being a scammer like that. I encountered one at a small business I worked for briefly. I saw him: scam employees, get in an altercation and learned he was in court the same morning for a scam in the Bahamas. All in the same day. No need to mention I quit on the spot. I came to learn he was a hardened criminal with a heavy judicial past from old papers, articles and employees. As far as I know, still in business.


----------



## Joshua Ringer (Jan 31, 2020)

And there we have it. I didn't figure I was ever going to get the guitar I ordered. Sad to say you live and learn... Oh yeah... this fella is a douche nozzle extraordinaire.

Fyrefest 2.0.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Jan 31, 2020)

Joshua Ringer said:


> And there we have it. I didn't figure I was ever going to get the guitar I ordered. Sad to say you live and learn... Oh yeah... this fella is a douche nozzle extraordinaire.
> 
> Fyrefest 2.0.


No shit. Watch the American Greed episode of that sociopath who did Fyrefest. It may be highly enlightening.


----------



## Jan (Feb 3, 2020)

Emperoff said:


> resorting toa cheap unknown guy to do the job so you can have it is a potential source of issues. Roter or Bernie Rico Jr. come to mind...


On that note, whatever happened to Roter - what's the story? I had a terrible experience with that guys back in 2009 I guess. Ordered a guitar, communication was amazing for a few weeks, then stopped and so did any progress on my guitar. He promised to consult me about every decision, but instead I was faced with silence and then suddenly got a finished MONSTROSITY. I got so pissed off I asked for a full refund, and to my surprise he complied, probably because at that time he was getting most of his customers on this forum, and I would have raised a feckin shit storm!!! Then I bought a Mayones and stopped following him. But recently I noticed he was banned on this forum?


----------



## Emperoff (Feb 3, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, I believe so, but it wasn't really completely Jackson's fault. You run that risk whenever you ship real black ebony across the globe.



This. I've got a CS Jackson with a cracked ebony board. You have to look REAL close to notice it, though. It had been switching hands because of dodgy sellers not disclosing them and buyers being freaked out after receiving it. So I told the latest seller that I knew the real condition of the guitar and he'd be better off accepting my offer than having problem with other buyers afterwards. He agreed and I got it dirt cheap so all good.



Jan said:


> On that note, whatever happened to Roter - what's the story? I had a terrible experience with that guys back in 2009 I guess. Ordered a guitar, communication was amazing for a few weeks, then stopped and so did any progress on my guitar. He promised to consult me about every decision, but instead I was faced with silence and then suddenly got a finished MONSTROSITY. I got so pissed off I asked for a full refund, and to my surprise he complied, probably because at that time he was getting most of his customers on this forum, and I would have raised a feckin shit storm!!! Then I bought a Mayones and stopped following him. But recently I noticed he was banned on this forum?



Can't really remember, but I think it had something to do with calipers 

Your post is quite representative anyway. The guy fed with SS.org's wettest dreams: Affordable customs with exotic woods from an unnamed builder. Then the monstruosities began to arise.

I'm guilty of bitting the bait with both, though. I luckily got away somewhat from both of them. Never again. There's only one guy I'd trust to make me a CS guitar which is the guy that does all the tech stuff on mine. And still, bad stuff could still happen since he's just him.

That's why I only buy used customs now. Supper happy with them, without the potential problems that could arise if something goes south.


----------



## Musiscience (Mar 9, 2020)

Was browsing Kijiji and stumbled upon one of his guitars. Quite surprised that they actually do exist in the wild. Since they both look new and are the exact same price, I'm going to assume this is him selling pre-built instruments. 

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-guitar/calg...e-explorer-mint-unplayed/1485437731?undefined

https://www.kijiji.ca/v-guitar/calgary/mork-verden-explorer-mint-unplayed/1487578674?undefined


----------



## Truthisoutthere (Aug 12, 2020)

Name of owner/operator previously listed was correct. Caveat Emptor and sorry to everyone who got caught up in it.


----------



## Truthisoutthere (Aug 12, 2020)

And I can say with 99.9/100 accuracy Mork is SK, as it even states on FB page "SK" in artist posts.


----------



## Randy (Aug 12, 2020)

I thought Mork was from Ork


----------



## Truthisoutthere (Aug 12, 2020)

Never saw rainbow suspenders but lots of pipe dreams....


----------



## KIMERA666 (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 21, 2020)

That last line. Savage. I love Ken so much.


----------



## possumkiller (Dec 22, 2020)

So is Ken licensed by gibson to build V, Explorer, and Les Paul shapes? Is all of his honor and integrity in the headstock shape? Wasn't James the one that came up with that headstock design?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 22, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> So is Ken licensed by gibson to build V, Explorer, and Les Paul shapes? Is all of his honor and integrity in the headstock shape? Wasn't James the one that came up with that headstock design?



To be fair, it's not completely decided whether Gibson owns those shapes (the Dean lawsuit is still slowly slinking through the courts). At least to what degree they do.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Dec 22, 2020)

A good mix of drama and promotional content on Verdens FB. Seems solid.


----------



## kisielk (Dec 22, 2020)

Amazing how there's not a single photo of a real finished guitar there


----------



## Durero (Dec 22, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> So is Ken licensed by gibson to build V, Explorer, and Les Paul shapes? Is all of his honor and integrity in the headstock shape? Wasn't James the one that came up with that headstock design?


Regarding the headstock design, no, Kenneth Lawrence was using that design for many years before he began building for James Hetfield.


----------



## possumkiller (Dec 22, 2020)

Durero said:


> Regarding the headstock design, no, Kenneth Lawrence was using that design for many years before he began building for James Hetfield.


Not really. He was using a slightly similar headstock design on his basses until James tweaked the design for the headstock of his explorer.


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