# A different approach to scales! (video content)



## JohnIce (Oct 19, 2009)

Alright, this is my first lesson so I'll try my best to sound comprehensive. Please excuse my english, I'm swedish 



Normally, scales on the guitar are taught by using "boxes", i.e. long patterns of notes from the low E string (or B) to high E, with different fingerings in different positions. Like this:

e--4--5----------------------7-----9--10----------
b-----5-----7----------------7-----9--10----------
g--4-----6--7-------------6--7-----9--------------
d--4-----6--7-------------6--7-----9--------------
a--4--5-----7----------5-----7-----9--------------
E-----5-----7----------5-----7-----9--------------

Although it's definately good to learn all these patterns, they don't really tell you anything about the individual notes. They make you visualise the fretboard in large patterns of nameless notes. This is why so many guitar players say they find it hard to "break out of the boxes", aswell as not really knowing the names of the notes on the fretboard. They know all these notes work in the key, but they don't know, specifically, why.

The logic behind it remains unknown.

Now, knowing the names of notes isn't really all that necessary, but what you want to know is the intervals. Knowing where your 3rd's and 5's and 4th's are and so on. These intervals stay the same in any key, regardless of what notes are actually in it. That's why they're good to know, and if you think that sounds like a hassle, take a moment to think about our piano playing and saxophone playing brothers etc., who have to learn a different fingering for every single key!!  We're lucky, us guitar players. We can just learn a scale once and then just slide it around the fretboard! 

Learning the intervals has one big advantage: *Less notes to keep track of*! An octave repeats every 7 notes. 7 notes is butt-simple to memorize. So why bother with these long, intricate patterns in different fingerings along the entire neck, when you could just learn 7 notes and then just repeat those?

Try this:

e-------------------------------------------
b-------------------------------------------
g-------------------------------------------
d--4------6--*7*-----------------------------
a--4---5-----7-----------------------------
E------*5*-----7-----------------------------

That's one octave. Instead of continuing like in the first example above, try playing this:

e-------------------------------------------
b------------7-----9--*10*-------------------
g---------6--7-----9-----------------------
d--4------6--*7*-----9-----------------------
a--4---5-----7-----------------------------
E------*5*-----7-----------------------------

Notice how similar the fingering is to the first octave?

Try a third octave:

e-------------------9--10----12----14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*----12-------------------
g---------6--7-----9------------------------------
d--4------6--*7*-----9-----------------------------
a--4---5-----7-----------------------------------
E------*5*-----7-----------------------------------

And now, start going back down, like this:

e-------------------9--10----12----14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*----12---14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9---------------*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-----------------------------
a--4---5-----7-----------------------------------
E------*5*-----7-----------------------------------

Recognise that pattern? You've probably played it a million times. But we're not done yet, keep going!

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----------------*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7----------------------------------------

And finally, we complete the circle and get back down to where we started:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

That's a 4 octave span, from the lowest A to the highest A. Apart from a few notes down on the low E and a few up on the high E, those notes are all you get in the key of A major on the guitar. There aren't any more.

-------------------------------------------------------

To learn this I'd suggest that you first of all map out where your root notes are, like this:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

Now you know where all these octaves start and end. Use these as navigational points when building the scales note-for-note. We'll continue by adding the 5th's, like this:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

Add 3rd's:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

...7th's:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

...2nd's:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

...6th's:

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

And finally, 4th's!

e-------------------9--10-----12-------14----16--*17*--
b------------7-----9---*10*-----12------14--15-----17--
g---------6--7-----9-------11-----13--*14*-----16-----
d--4------6--*7*-----9-------11-12------14-------------
a--4---5-----7-----9-------11-*12*-----14-------------
E------*5*-----7-----9---10-----12---------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------

This approach has been much better for me when improvising and creating chord inversions or rhythm figures, because each of the notes get a specific purpose and value. I now know what a 4th or a 7th sounds like, and I know where to find them on the neck. I learned all the standard box fingerings just like everyone else and can rip through them without thinking about it, but to me this intervallic/octave approach is so much more musical and useable. I don't have to guess my way around the fretboard, and can play with more determination and conviction because I know in advance how I want to play, as opposed to randomly hitting notes in a box and hoping for good results (which often works quite well, but it's still based more on habits and muscle memory than your actual musical ideas being cnveyed directly from your brain to your guitar. The goal is to hear one thing in your head and playing the exact same thing on the guitar, just like you would if you were singing.)

Hope this lesson made any sense at all, feel fre to blitzkrieg me with questions if you have them 

Take care dudes! //John


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## ShadyDavey (Oct 19, 2009)

Nice lesson dude.

Learning the intervals as they relate to the key is probably the best way of musically approaching the instrument - it's definitely better than learning 7 three note per string patterns and suddenly finding yourself locked into those patterns without realising the relevance of the note's you're playing 

Keep the lessons coming ^^


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## hufschmid (Oct 19, 2009)

Awesome man, I have no clue what you're talking about because I never learned theory, I just know basic stuff really 

But the work put into the video and the thread, wow


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## TimothyLeary (Oct 19, 2009)

nice lesson. I always thought why people bother to learn all the patterns and don't try to understand what they mean. Why don't go to the scale see the intervals and then try to find them in the neck. It's easier to understand how the scale works, and it's easier to mess with the chords, because we know where is the 4th if we want to get that specific sound.


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## JohnIce (Oct 19, 2009)

Thanks for the quick replies, guys!

@Huf: Yeah, I was a bit worried that it could be confusing unless you have some basic knowledge about intervals already. I guess I should make another lesson on that to make this one more comprehensive  It's not much you need to know though, the hard thing is starting in the right place. In general, learning theory is all about learning in the right order at the right pace, otherwise none of it will make sense.

@Shady: Exactly. I noticed that somehow I was always able to improvise more creatively on the piano than guitar, despite never practicing the piano. I realized it's because on the piano, I was looking at the scales in repeating octaves, instead of trying to see one massive scale from end to end like I would on guitar.

Knowing your intervals also makes it much easier to find outside notes, like a b5 or dominant 7 and so on. Being able to use those notes in any octave, anywhere on the neck really makes for more effortless improvs.


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## hufschmid (Oct 19, 2009)

Oh but its all cool man, I've been playing for such a long time and mostly all by reading tabs and by ear, my mother who is a famous classical musician and a real expert at that, she gave lessons about theory to many top notch professionals out there...

She did however always try to get me to learn theory but I always hated learning it, so I ended up just playing using my ears... 

When I read some stuff about theory in this forum I'm like


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## Apophis (Oct 19, 2009)

really nice and useful imo  
I play exactly the same way and that's why I use all fourths tuning (I'm fan of symmetrical tunings overall). When I started using that method of understanding scales and intervals I realized that it can be even easier when I will tune all fourths like a bass, so I raised my 2 highest strings half-step to fcgdaeb and everything become easier in one second. no more thinking about switching position reaching high strings


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 20, 2009)

Awesome, dude, I encourage everybody to play this way. Thinking intervallically is the best way to approach any instrument, string instruments in particular. Not only that, but it acquaints your ear with melodic and harmonic relationships, thereby making all music less of a mystery. Thanks for making the video and lesson.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Oct 20, 2009)

Looks like we think alike here John, not just in our tastes in music. 

The keyboard method of learning scales for guitarists. I love it. It's about the sounds and notes, not about where it is on the fretboard. This is how I teach scales to my students, and I'm glad I'm not alone. 

Also using the root note of the scale as an anchor, that is the key. Use it to match all intervals in a scale. Really there are only 7 distinct notes in a scale (sans chromatic and some pentatonic and other exotic; but that's another story) and to understand that not only will you open up your soloing possibilities, but sharpens your ear training. You recognise the tonal characteristics of every interval and start relating them. The result is that it's easier to figure out songs by ear, and even better learning to improvise on a spot in a far more fluid and free way, not bounded by the same practiced patterns. 

Once you understand and apply, it all becomes "just" notes, and that's what we're all trying to achieve. 

Awesome stuff.


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## JohnIce (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words, guys!

@Bloody Inferno: Haha yeah man, we would kick ass as coffee buddies  

Agreed to what you said, and once you've got the regular major scale down, it becomes a lot easier to use those chromatic and outside notes, because you're only replacing one note with another (usually only a semi-tone apart), as opposed to switching to another set of fingerings/patterns all along the neck (which is so often, and so confusingly, taught). It's so much easier to think of for example A Lydian as a regular A major scale but with a #4, than to think of it as a completely different scale. It also makes it much easier to outline the chord progression in your lead playing, which is essential to good phrasing.


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## DarkRaven03 (Oct 21, 2009)

Holy crap, this helped my improv immediately. By applying this concept to my knowledge of 3nps shapes for the modes and simply keeping track of the root note, my note choice improves immensely. Thanks man, this helped me see something on the fretboard that was already staring me in the face haha.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Oct 21, 2009)

^Yup.
Never loose track of your root, since everything you're doing is related to the root, and without it you are (usually) lost.


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## JohnIce (Oct 21, 2009)

DarkRaven03 said:


> Holy crap, this helped my improv immediately. By applying this concept to my knowledge of 3nps shapes for the modes and simply keeping track of the root note, my note choice improves immensely. Thanks man, this helped me see something on the fretboard that was already staring me in the face haha.


 
That's awesome! I'm really glad I could help!


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## Bloody_Inferno (Oct 21, 2009)

JohnIce said:


> Thanks for the kind words, guys!
> 
> @Bloody Inferno: Haha yeah man, we would kick ass as coffee buddies
> 
> Agreed to what you said, and once you've got the regular major scale down, it becomes a lot easier to use those chromatic and outside notes, because you're only replacing one note with another (usually only a semi-tone apart), as opposed to switching to another set of fingerings/patterns all along the neck (which is so often, and so confusingly, taught). It's so much easier to think of for example A Lydian as a regular A major scale but with a #4, than to think of it as a completely different scale. It also makes it much easier to outline the chord progression in your lead playing, which is essential to good phrasing.


 

 Unfortunately I've given up caffeine recently. Tea? 

Slightly off topic but it does help a lot:

Using the root note as an anchor and learing the intervals from there: the opposite can be applied when figuring out songs. Listen to the first chord, play any random note, and see which interval it's related to the root note (most often the bass note) of the chord heard, thus determining the key of the song. With the knowledge of learning the simple scale method, and only 7 intervals, it makes ear training so much easier. 

This is really helpful especially with dense chordal music.


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## dexmix (Oct 23, 2009)

SchecterWhore said:


> Awesome, dude, I encourage everybody to play this way. Thinking intervallically is the best way to approach any instrument, string instruments in particular. Not only that, but it acquaints your ear with melodic and harmonic relationships, thereby making all music less of a mystery. Thanks for making the video and lesson.




exactly... learning note patterns, and not just 'positions' or X note per string, really helps to understand exactly how stringed instruments work.

intervals are key - and even though many people say intervals are paramount on theory sites, it is not taught in a way that people understand just how the neck works.

personally i prefer tetrachordal approach - and all my scales and everything i do - is rewritten as intervals. tetrachords basically minimizes the number of patterns you have to learn - but still place the almighty interval to glue it all together.

@OP this is the exact same technique as tetrachordal approach - except with tetrachords you learn it all in 4 note patterns, as opposed to 7/8 note patterns (makes the patterns easier to memorize, play the full scale on a single string, and modulate on the root and 5th)


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## BlackMetalVenom (Oct 28, 2009)

*'Effing cool lesson man.
Just knowing the root itself improved my improvisation substantially. 
Take care and take it easy.*


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 28, 2009)

These are the kinds of lessons I've been needing...  

Awesome, man... Simply fuckin' awesome.


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## DeathMetalDean (Oct 28, 2009)

That's awesome, lol I've only recently started to learn scales, I'll try this approach  seems far better than the boxes


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 28, 2009)

i've been practicing it in all modes for about the past 30 min and i'm lovin' this shit. thanks a ton, man!


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Oct 29, 2009)

*Shush* Stop giving away the secrets! *Shush*

Just kidding!

Great work to the original poster for putting in the work to explain this area of thought. I try to teach this method to anyone that asks me how I do what I do. As the OP said, this method unleashes your thought without your hands interpreting their own version.

The next part is ear training, so you can recognise the intervals between pitches at will. Jazzers reccomend transcribing everything you like for this part, but as most metal players don't use fly sh*t or cheat sheets, concentrate on numbering the major scale 1-7 with its' flats and sharps for other scales and modes. If you always know what number your on, in the key, you will know which note to go to for the sound your imagining next.

I like to advocate the method of seeing the guitar as a series of octaves / arpeggios with the more creative tones filling the gaps. I think the OP would agree with that from the approach he has outlined.

More power to him!

Be aware though, that once you know how a magic trick is done, it will never entertain you again. That's why people listen to Shawn Lane, Dream Theater and everyone else that pushes the envelope. And I remember when I thought "Master of Puppets" was fast...

One excercise which is worth pursuing is playing some scales for a couple of minutes, then singing them with whatever noise you like or can produce, then "Free form scat singing" whilst playing the notes on the guitar. I learned this excercise from Joe Satriani, in his Guitar World column which was produced into a book; Joe got it from a Jazz player whom he studied under by the name of Lenny Tristano, if I remember correctly. The excercise also helps tune in that goal of good voice / guitar coordination, which is one of my personal aims at the moment, and is something I wish I'd started practicing or focusing on sooner.

Good luck and great work from the OP!!!


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## TimothyLeary (Oct 29, 2009)

I'm practising this right now, and I notice when for example, a scale has a b3 instead of a simple 3 it's kind confusing, because the finger might go to the place where we know is a 3 but we forget we have to go back one fret(back a semitone). 

I suppose this may happen in the beginning right? the important thing is to know exactly where the "principal" intervals are so we can make this changes(flat or sharps), automatically. 

This is quite fun to practice.


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 29, 2009)

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> *Shush* Stop giving away the secrets! *Shush*
> 
> Just kidding!
> 
> ...



^ people have said that to me a million times but they never gave me the part John explained in the original post so it never really fully made sense. the concept made sense but i couldn't quite apply it.


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## JohnIce (Oct 29, 2009)

Wow, didn't expect such good response  Cheers for all the kind words guys, glad I could help!


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## Durero (Oct 29, 2009)

Great post John 

by the way your tab would format more clearly if you added "code" and "/code" tags around it like this:



```
e--4--5----------------------7-----9--10----------
b-----5-----7----------------7-----9--10----------
g--4-----6--7-------------6--7-----9--------------
d--4-----6--7-------------6--7-----9--------------
a--4--5-----7----------5-----7-----9--------------
E-----5-----7----------5-----7-----9--------------
```

all the text between the "code" tags gets a fixed-width font which is much more readable for tablature.


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## JohnIce (Nov 13, 2009)

Durero said:


> Great post John
> 
> by the way your tab would format more clearly if you added "code" and "/code" tags around it like this:
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the tip man, I'll get right on that!


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## JohnIce (Jan 3, 2010)

Bumped in case someone interested missed it the first time  I'm currently working on a follow-up lesson to this one, but on rhythmic ideas instead, and how they can make your soloing, oddly enough, more melodic. I'm also planning to do one on relationships between phrasing and chord progressions, as a lot of players tend to think of soloing based on what key they're in instead of thinking about what chords they're actually soloing over. Seems like I have a lot to do, but that's what happens when you're unemployed I guess


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## Fzau (Jan 3, 2010)

Wow this is weird, I actually started learning scales this way yesterday.. now I see it in your vid 
I would completely rule out box shapes, as they can provide a quick overall feel of the scale/mode in different settings but for improv itself I absolutely love it this way.
As Guthrie Govan stated in one of his vids, the best note of a scale is the root, the second best is the fifth and then there's the third. 
Those ones are the basic notes you probably lean on the most, the rest of them (6th, 7th, 9th or 11th) or used for colouring.
Understanding the effect of a certain note on the feel of the lick/riff/whatever is quite important as well.
You all know that already of course but this method of approaching scales really does make it far more effective.
Nice lesson! 

That next one should be REALLY interesting! 
Soloing over chord progressions rather than a set key is exactly what I've learned from Marty Friedman, his phrasing is devine too 
Looking forward to your next lesson John


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## Mvotre (Jan 4, 2010)

thanks a million man!
i always try to learn the modes just to get frustrated at remembering those shitty boxes 

with your ideas, its a lot easier. still need a lot of work to make good music, but at least its easier to start playing with scales


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## 8string (Jan 4, 2010)

That's really helpful, rep for that!
EDIT: btw, is that the axe-fx?
that's a sweet tone


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## Mattmc74 (Jan 4, 2010)

Great clips man! 
BTW - I did miss it the first time so thanks for the bump.


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## Hollowway (Jan 5, 2010)

It IS still memorizing, though. I have no problems with the boxes, as if you learn them you can fairly easily jump from one box to the next. And while thinking about the notes helps come up with some cool melodies and progressions, when you're soloing it helps to have certain patterns that you can fall into and string together. So are you suggesting that you memorize the locations of all of the roots, fifths, thirds, etc relative to the overall pattern, or on the neck absolutely? I would think the relative position would be easiest, because then you'd only have to translate that pattern up or down to hit other keys.

Secondly, when soloing over chords, rather than just in the particular key, you can just change the mode and stay in the same position. With your method, I guess you'd just have to keep in mind which note corresponds to which mode, and transpose it that way, right?


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jan 5, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> It IS still memorizing, though. I have no problems with the boxes, as if you learn them you can fairly easily jump from one box to the next. And while thinking about the notes helps come up with some cool melodies and progressions, when you're soloing it helps to have certain patterns that you can fall into and string together. At this point for me I've been playing those modal boxes for so long it's second nature, so it's not a big deal. I like this transposable little pattern, though, so I'm going to try to get that to be second nature as well.


 
I guess that's the reason why I always state that scales are only just 8 notes. The purpose of John's lesson (well, in my point of view anyway) is for musicans to transcend confining patterns and ultimately see things in a musical perspective. Even if you're moving the scale in different octaves and postions, they're still the same 8 notes. 

It is indeed important to understand and know these patterns well, but what good are patterns when we solo with only patterns in our mindset? People can tell when a solo is musical and when a solo is just practicing scales incorrectly labeled solo. Especially in moving chord progressions. A lot of musical substance and integrity is lost on the latter because the musical aspect is neglected. 

The purpose is breaking down scales into it's simplest form. We take away any unessential notions (such as getting stuck in patterns) and understand the musical side of the scale. We can then see notes as buttons that invoke different moods. And because everybody is unique, our choice of notes become the notes we appeal to the most, and thus begins the path to forging your own style and sense of melody. 

Joe Satriani said it best: "Whatever you do, keep it musical". Even Yngwie said "Don't play with your fingers, play with your ears. If music is not about sound, what's it all about?". It's that level of understanding that I belive that not only all guitarists, but all musicians, should strive to achieve. 

EDIT: Quote's been ed. But my statement stays the same.


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## JohnIce (Jan 7, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> It IS still memorizing, though. I have no problems with the boxes, as if you learn them you can fairly easily jump from one box to the next. And while thinking about the notes helps come up with some cool melodies and progressions, when you're soloing it helps to have certain patterns that you can fall into and string together. So are you suggesting that you memorize the locations of all of the roots, fifths, thirds, etc relative to the overall pattern, or on the neck absolutely? I would think the relative position would be easiest, because then you'd only have to translate that pattern up or down to hit other keys.
> 
> Secondly, when soloing over chords, rather than just in the particular key, you can just change the mode and stay in the same position. With your method, I guess you'd just have to keep in mind which note corresponds to which mode, and transpose it that way, right?


 
Thanks for checking out the lesson and giving it some serious thought! 

First of all, I want to say that there's no universal "best" when it comes to learning and playing guitar. What works best for me might not at all be best for you. However, what I'm trying to say is that one reason why guitarists are often so "behind" the pianists, violinists, saxophonists etc. when it comes to music theory, is because we like to approach the fretboard in patterns and boxes that can be moved around in different keys without changing fingerings. The guitar is one of extremely few instruments that you can do that on. This makes the guitar easy and fun to learn, but can also cause laziness. 

You're still leaving your improvisation to guesswork and muscle memory by playing this way. It works great sometimes, I recorded some solos in my youth that I still think are as musical as any, but I wasn't nearly as consistent. You say, "it helps to have certain patterns that you can fall into and string together". This is what I'm talking about, you're falling back on stuff you've already learned and played before. That's not, in my humble opinion, true improvisation, because you're playing licks and runs that you've practiced before. I'll agree that it "helps", in the sense that it helps you get out of your solo spot without feeling too much pressure, but it won't push you to be a better musician. Improvising freely and choosing your notes individually, THAT will make you progress.

About soloing over chord progressions, you're absolutely right, modes is a great way to do it, given that you know which mode represents which chord in the key. Knowing the arpeggios in each of these modes is also of great help. This is how most experienced jazz musicians play, it's a bit matemathical to learn but it means an incredible freedom when you've got it down.


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## Hollowway (Jan 7, 2010)

^^Yeah, totally. For me, the intervals would be a great way to learn to really play well, but right now I've got some more basic technique issues, and not enough time in the day to do it. But I suppose if I were to start learning now, and hadn't already committed the other stuff to memory, that might be a better route. Cuz you're right, it's way easier to play in different keys on a guitar, but we lose a little bit in that simplicity. Still, our instrument kicks the ass of the others!


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## JohnIce (Jan 9, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> Still, our instrument kicks the ass of the others!


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## JohnIce (May 6, 2010)

A little bumpage again to see if anyone new is interested in the concept


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## ry_z (May 6, 2010)

I use the same concept a lot, but I got it from Paul Gilbert. 

It's great for arpeggios, too. Just work out the shape once, and move it around in octaves. 

Like this Em7 arpeggio:


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## McCap (May 6, 2010)

Nice lesson 

Knowing your grades improves your improv immensely !!
Right, now I'm trying to play more chord oriented when improvising as opposed to shred through prelearned shapes...

Keep it up!!


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## Cashandbrand (May 6, 2010)

That was a good lesson! 

You should check out some of Jon Finn's lessons. He is a Berklee teacher who takes it a few steps further.


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## youheardme (May 18, 2010)

Thanks for the new approach to learning theory. I've now been working on trying to play the A major scale everywhere on the neck. But i have some questions regarding soloing over chord progressions.

If i'm playing the notes which I've been practicing (A major - A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#) how am i going to know which chords are going to work with these singular notes in this major scale?
Do I play a C#Major, Dmajor and Bmajor because i'm playing in A major? Or do each of these notes in the scale not actually represent the chord's which fit within the progression.
Are the chords which i'm going to play within this progression limited to the notes which are within the scale? Or can I choose other notes to incorporate with the chords which i'm soloing over?


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## JohnIce (May 18, 2010)

youheardme said:


> Thanks for the new approach to learning theory. I've now been working on trying to play the A major scale everywhere on the neck. But i have some questions regarding soloing over chord progressions.
> 
> If i'm playing the notes which I've been practicing (A major - A, B, C#, D, E, F#, G#) how am i going to know which chords are going to work with these singular notes in this major scale?
> Do I play a C#Major, Dmajor and Bmajor because i'm playing in A major? Or do each of these notes in the scale not actually represent the chord's which fit within the progression.
> Are the chords which i'm going to play within this progression limited to the notes which are within the scale? Or can I choose other notes to incorporate with the chords which i'm soloing over?


 
First of all, thanks for the comment!  

That question is pretty broad, but also an important one, so i'll do my best to be to-the-point and as informative as I can.

A key is made up of chords that are made up from a scale. The notes you mentioned (from the A major scale), are all root notes in the key of A major. There are always 7 "main" chords in a key, just as there are 7 "main" tones in a scale. All the notes in all the chords within one key, contain of only those 7 notes (just different combinations of them).

If you stack the 1st, 3d and 5th note from the scale, you get a chord. Whether it's a major or minor chord is determined by whether the 3d is major or minor, which depends on what note you start on in the scale. If you do this, starting on each note of the scale, you get these chords (in order):

A Major
B minor
C# minor
D Major
E Major
F# minor
G# minor-5 (ignore this one for now)

Any major scale, regardless of which one, always has that same pattern of Majors and minors. The first, 4th and 5th chords are Major, and the 2nd, 3d and 6th chords are minor. In the key of C for example, that's C, Dm, Em, F, G and Am.

Keep asking if you want more info


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## AliceAxe (May 18, 2010)

very good advice, to learn the scale itself and learn it as octaves all over the fretboard, also the basis for the 'caged' system as seen here:

Understanding the CAGED system - Printer friendly


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## youheardme (May 19, 2010)

> If you stack the 1st, 3d and 5th note from the scale, you get a chord



So I guess here you're referencing triads? (which I don't completely understand yet either haha)
Major - 1 3 5
Minor - 1 3b 5
Augmented - 1 3 5#
Diminished - 1 3b 5b




> Any major scale, regardless of which one, always has that same pattern of Majors and minors.


Where does this pattern come from? (triads?)




> The first, 4th and 5th chords are Major, and the 2nd, 3d and 6th chords are minor.


 So using this formula.... If i'm playing in C major but I start my soloing passage with an F... The chords which I would be able to play along with would be: F, Gm, Am, B, C, Dm, and something odd happening to the E?
Is this correct or is it no matter what note I start on in the scale of C I will always be limited to just C, Dm, Em, F, G and Am to play over?


Also when you were showing an example of the chords to play over C; what happened the the 7th? 


Edit:
I also previously had another tread going: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...ues/112779-stuck-in-a-guitar-playing-rut.html

Just wondering if you had any other tips or tricks that can get me headed in the right direction towards learning theory properly. I think these exercises of using octaves is much better than the traditional box shapes.



Newer Edit: 
After thinking about this for some time... If I'm playing in C major but I start my soloing on F... I'm actually playing F lydian now? and not actually the C major scale anymore? ohhh my head hurts.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 19, 2010)

youheardme said:


> So using this formula.... If i'm playing in C major but I start my soloing passage with an F... The chords which I would be able to play along with would be: F, Gm, Am, B, C, Dm, and something odd happening to the E?
> Is this correct or is it no matter what note I start on in the scale of C I will always be limited to just C, Dm, Em, F, G and Am to play over?



The chords of C major are C Dm Em F G Am Bdim. Those chords don't change, no matter what note you start your melody on (if you're being completely diatonic). Every major scale is harmonized using that M m m M M m dim pattern. So, D major, which is D E F# G A B C#, is harmonized D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim. If the melody starts on G, who cares. The chords that you can choose from in the key are stil D Em F#m G A Bm C#dim.


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## JohnIce (May 20, 2010)

SchecterWhore is right as usual 



youheardme said:


> Newer Edit:
> After thinking about this for some time... If I'm playing in C major but I start my soloing on F... I'm actually playing F lydian now? and not actually the C major scale anymore? ohhh my head hurts.


 
The C major scale (or C Ionian, which is just another name for it), contains the exact same notes as D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, G Mixolydian, A Aeolian (or natural minor scale) and B Locrian.

So you can call it F lydian if it helps you, but you could still just think of it as a C major scale. The only time you could definately say it's an F lydian scale is if you play it in the key of F, for example the Simpsons theme uses a Lydian scale.

Other than that modes are, at least in my opinion, useless if you're playing in just one single key. The reason jazz players talk so much about modes is because they use a lot of chords that don't belong in the key, for example if you play an A7 in the key of G, that A7 doesn't belong in that key so playing the G major scale over it would sound bad. But because we know it's an A7, if we know modes then we'd know that the A Mixolydian scale would work on top of it, because the Mixolydian scale works over Dominant 7 chords. So if for example the chord progression is G C D A7, then we could stick to the G major scale for everything (C and D are part of the G major key) except the A7, where we'd play A Mixolydian instead.

- edit - Since you asked what happened to the 7th in my example with C major: the 7th chord in a key is an mb5 chord (minor flat five), which is the triad version of a diminished chord (dim chords also contain a b7). The diminished is a bit of an unnecessary headache if you're just starting to learn theory though. Just as a fun fact though, a diminished chord is when you stack minor thirds on top of each other (every note is three frets apart). This means that you can slide a diminished chord around three frets at a time all across the neck, without going out of key.


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## JohnIce (May 20, 2010)

8string said:


> That's really helpful, rep for that!
> EDIT: btw, is that the axe-fx?
> that's a sweet tone


 
Thanks man, and yes, it's an Axe-Fx


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 20, 2010)

JohnIce said:


> - edit - Since you asked what happened to the 7th in my example with C major: the 7th chord in a key is an mb5 chord (minor flat five), which is the triad version of a diminished chord (dim chords also contain a b7). The diminished is a bit of an unnecessary headache if you're just starting to learn theory though. Just as a fun fact though, a diminished chord is when you stack minor thirds on top of each other (every note is three frets apart). This means that you can slide a diminished chord around three frets at a time all across the neck, without going out of key.



I've never heard mb5 before. m7b5, I can understand (though I don't always agree with the label), but I've always heard the triad version called a diminished triad. Interesting.

By the way, a dim7 chord has a bb7. m7b5 is 1 b3 b5 b7.


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## JohnIce (May 21, 2010)

SchecterWhore said:


> I've never heard mb5 before. m7b5, I can understand (though I don't always agree with the label), but I've always heard the triad version called a diminished triad. Interesting.
> 
> By the way, a dim7 chord has a bb7. m7b5 is 1 b3 b5 b7.


 
Interesting indeed  I've done the bulk of my theory studies in swedish though, so I've found a lot of terms don't go parallel with the english ones. Which is also why I enjoy discussing theory in english, so I get to learn the english names for things 

One of the most annoying things in swedish theory is that many people use H instead of B when talking about note names. To them, B means the same thing as b, i.e. a flat note, and just B refers to Bb. Terribly confusing. So if you tell them you're playing a Bm7 chord, they'll play Bbm7.  Thankfully, the internetz has pretty quickly eradicated this and most people now say B and don't use H at all, but some old cats still militantly defend H. I've seen a lot of Germans use H aswell, for example on guitar webstores where they refer to the low H string on a 7-string


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## youheardme (May 24, 2010)

I'm starting to get a better handle on things now... 

Do you guys have any suggestions on how to learn theory when I don't have a guitar in front of me?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 24, 2010)

JohnIce said:


> Interesting indeed  I've done the bulk of my theory studies in swedish though, so I've found a lot of terms don't go parallel with the english ones. Which is also why I enjoy discussing theory in english, so I get to learn the english names for things
> 
> One of the most annoying things in swedish theory is that many people use H instead of B when talking about note names. To them, B means the same thing as b, i.e. a flat note, and just B refers to Bb. Terribly confusing. So if you tell them you're playing a Bm7 chord, they'll play Bbm7.  Thankfully, the internetz has pretty quickly eradicated this and most people now say B and don't use H at all, but some old cats still militantly defend H. I've seen a lot of Germans use H aswell, for example on guitar webstores where they refer to the low H string on a 7-string



That's wacky. I can imagine the confusion. 



youheardme said:


> I'm starting to get a better handle on things now...
> 
> Do you guys have any suggestions on how to learn theory when I don't have a guitar in front of me?














Free printable staff paper @ Blank Sheet Music .net


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## youheardme (May 26, 2010)

JohnIce said:


> Bumped in case someone interested missed it the first time  I'm currently working on a follow-up lesson to this one, but on rhythmic ideas instead, and how they can make your soloing, oddly enough, more melodic. I'm also planning to do one on relationships between phrasing and chord progressions, as a lot of players tend to think of soloing based on what key they're in instead of thinking about what chords they're actually soloing over. Seems like I have a lot to do, but that's what happens when you're unemployed I guess




Hey, Just checking to see how these follow up lessons are coming along?
I'm quite interested

Just waiting until i get that  moment where things start making more sense haha


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