# Why am I Getting slower over the years?



## Breakdown (Nov 9, 2008)

Hello Ive noticed that over the last 4 years or so ive been playing guitar my fingers have actually been getting more tense instead of getting looser and my picking hand has gotten sloppier as well. Any idea why this could be. What kind of excercises can I do to help make my fingers looser and less tense and my picking hand get better and less sloppy???
thanks for reading


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 9, 2008)

Has your practice regimen changed? Do you play less often? Are you less focused in your playing? Have have changed the style of music you play to one in which you use little demanding technique and have atrophied over time? Are you tired of these questions? 

It's difficult to say without knowing what and how you've been practicing over the years. And it's not so much what kind of exercises you play as it is how and how often you play them. 

If you want I can give you the finger exercises I use. For picking I'd recommend practicing downpicking, alternate picking long chains of notes (eight or more trem picking style as opposed to the next example), and the first riff from "Bleed."

Also, and I know many people say this, but I seriously recommend playing on a steel-string acoustic. Don't think any differently on it, but transfer chopsy stuff to the acoustic, though it might have to be transposed into a lower position.


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## Harry (Nov 9, 2008)

One thing to bear in mind also, too much practice can have detrimental effects as well, just before you decide you think a 10 hour a day practice regime is in order (Something I explained in an earlier thread too btw)
3-5 hours a day should be a good amount of time each day to keep chops up to scratch.

As for the tenseness, don't continue to play things the way you currently.
Analyze your playing and see what you're doing wrong.
If you feel you don't know exactly why after much analysis, a good guitar teacher should be able to help you in that regard too.



As for myself, I haven't got much faster this year, but my sweep picking cleaned up dramatically.
It's more about playing stuff perfectly at tempos you can manage at a moment in time, rather than trying to play as fast as possible at tempos you can't handle.


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## Breakdown (Nov 9, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> Has your practice regimen changed? Do you play less often? Are you less focused in your playing? Have have changed the style of music you play to one in which you use little demanding technique and have atrophied over time? Are you tired of these questions?
> 
> It's difficult to say without knowing what and how you've been practicing over the years. And it's not so much what kind of exercises you play as it is how and how often you play them.
> 
> ...


I used to be more into faster techinically proficent players then I got into metalcore and practice metalcore riffs a lot. i was never super fast or anything but I was faster and cleaner than I am now. and my fingers didnt use to tense up so fast or as much as they do now my picking hand was also a lot cleaner. And I used to be SUPER into into guitar like when I lstened to music i channled out everything except the guitar. so yeah I have gotten less focused on the guitar.

Yeah i heard that a lot and i have noticed that after i play a steel string the electrics usually feel like butter. i usually just play on the clean channel of my amp to clean up my stuff a bit then go to the distorted sounds. I use the same chrmatic warm up most people use.

do you mean bleed by messhugah??

thanks for the answer man ill try those excercises.


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## right_to_rage (Nov 9, 2008)

Metalcore is angry, and when you get angry you get tense (generally). So instead of playing angrily, play seriously .

Stretch before you play, meaning: take a look at the stretches in John Petrucci's Rock Discipline.
Do you pick with your elbow or your wrist?
if you pick with your wrist, follow through with your thumb and pointer fingers (holding the pick, not the actual wrist. If that makes any sense (its sort of a mental thing), you might have to see it.

I think the only way to remedy this is to do the above, and practice slowly. Slow enough that you are not tense, the playing is clean, and your tone is still good. Do this and speed it up. Don't play things at full speed all the time, and try to minimize your movements. Be a little more zen with the guitar (like a martial art). lol

Don't confuse yourself and get frustrated though, that gets you into ruts.

Try this web site http://bobmolton.com/11/guitar-picking-right-hand-tips/


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 10, 2008)

Breakdown said:


> I used to be more into faster techinically proficent players then I got into metalcore and practice metalcore riffs a lot. i was never super fast or anything but I was faster and cleaner than I am now. and my fingers didnt use to tense up so fast or as much as they do now my picking hand was also a lot cleaner. And I used to be SUPER into into guitar like when I lstened to music i channled out everything except the guitar. so yeah I have gotten less focused on the guitar.
> 
> Yeah i heard that a lot and i have noticed that after i play a steel string the electrics usually feel like butter. i usually just play on the clean channel of my amp to clean up my stuff a bit then go to the distorted sounds. I use the same chrmatic warm up most people use.
> 
> ...



There could be your answer. If you're playing riffs and not practicing scale runs, then your fingers won't get the same practice as with the runs, although it depends on the riff and is not some unbreakable rule. 

I'm glad that you're less focused on the guitar in your listening; I think it's good to take in the whole picture, and you can have chops without listening exclusively to the guitar. 

Yep, Meshuggah's "Bleed."

Make sure you're using correct picking technique, which probably means from the wrist exclusively or 99.246924057297523%.

When you do the picking exercises, try to get a consistent and firm pick attack. Hard enough that it's fairly aggressive, but at a point from which you can still accent the notes.

I guess you mean this as your chromatic exercise:
e----------------------------1-2-1--------
B----------------------1-2---------2-1------------
G---------------1-2---------------------2-1---------
D----------1-2-------------------------------2-1----
A-----1-2-----------------------------------------2-1
E-1-2--------------------------------------------------2-1

Using hammers and pulls, right?

Cool. 

Here's the format for the epic endurance/strength training version I use. 

e-------------------------------------------------------------------------
B-------------------------------------------------------------------------
G----------------------------------------------------1-2-1---------1-2-
D-------------------------------1-2-1--------1-2----------2-1-2-------
A----------1-2-1---------1-2---------2-1-2----------------------------
E--1-2-1---------2-1-2-------------------------------------------------

e------------------------1-2-1--------1-2-1----------------------------
B--1-2-1---------1-2----------2-1-2--------2-1---------1-2-1--------
G---------2-1-2-----------------------------------2-1-2---------2-1---
D-------------------------------------------------------------------------
A-------------------------------------------------------------------------
E-------------------------------------------------------------------------

e-----------------------------------------------------------
B-----------------------------------------------------------
G---------1-2-1--------------------------------------------
D--2-1-2--------2-1---------1-2-1------------------------
A----------------------2-1-2--------2-1--------1-2-1-----
E-----------------------------------------2-1-2---------2-1

That one fret for one finger group. 

I typically go through finger groups 1&2; 2&3; 3&4; 1,2,& 4; and 1,3,&4 and go up to the thirteenth fret. Although since I do this on steel-string acoustic, I often do the equivalent of 13 frets since going that high on some of the exercises gets a bit dicey in terms of comfort at those positions.


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## Breakdown (Nov 11, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> There could be your answer. If you're playing riffs and not practicing scale runs, then your fingers won't get the same practice as with the runs, although it depends on the riff and is not some unbreakable rule.
> 
> I'm glad that you're less focused on the guitar in your listening; I think it's good to take in the whole picture, and you can have chops without listening exclusively to the guitar.
> 
> ...


Actually its more like:

e---------------------------------------------1-2-3-4--------
B------------------------------------1-2-3-4--------------------
G---------------------------1-2-3-4-----------------------------
D------------------1-2-3-4--------------------------------------
A---------1-2-3-4-----------------------------------------------
E-1-2-3-4-------------------------------------------------------

e-2-3-4-5-------------------------------------------------------
B----------2-3-4-5----------------------------------------------
G------------------2-3-4-5--------------------------------------
D---------------------------2-3-4-5-----------------------------
A------------------------------------2-3-4-5--------------------
E---------------------------------------------2-3-4-5-----------
ETC. all the way to the 12th fret then I do

e-15-14-13-12-------------------------------------------------------
B--------------15-14-13-12------------------------------------------
G---------------------------15-14-13-12-----------------------------
D----------------------------------------15-14-13-12----------------
A-----------------------------------------------------15-14-13-12---
E--------------------------------------------------------------------

e------------------------------------------------------------------
B-----------------------------------------------------12-11-10-9---
G----------------------------------------13-12-11-10----------------
D---------------------------14-13-12-11-----------------------------
A--------------14-13-12-11------------------------------------------
E-15-14-13-12-------------------------------------------------------

ETC back down to the 1st fret
for about 15 mins
All the excercises I use above are alternate picked

then I tremolo pick till it hurts.

thanks
Ill try some of thoese excercises and take the advice


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## Harry (Nov 11, 2008)

Do you only those chromatic exercises as warm ups?
You should really get into diatonic stuff as well, to stretch the fingers a bit more.


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## Breakdown (Nov 11, 2008)

HughesJB4 said:


> Do you only those chromatic exercises as warm ups?
> You should really get into diatonic stuff as well, to stretch the fingers a bit more.


yup I don I dont warm up much before I play.
haha


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## Harry (Nov 11, 2008)

Make at least, at the very least the first 15 minutes of your practice session warming up.
25 minutes if you've got more time though.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Nov 11, 2008)

e---------------------------------------8-10-12-14
B------------------------------7-9-11
G----------------------5-7-9
D---------------4-6-8
A--------3-5-7
E-2-4-6

Whole tone scale. This is a step up (pun) from the chromatic scale. Start slow; when you do it faster, your hand will either gracefully bounce from fret to fret, or your hand will cramp up, in which case, you need to slow down.


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## Scali (Nov 11, 2008)

I've never done any of that 'practice regimen' stuff. I don't warm up, and I don't just play scales or patterns repeatedly for 15 minutes or more.

What I DID do however, is 'optimize' my technique. Firstly ofcourse one requires a guitar that is set up properly, so it's very responsive to fretting (especially important for legato playing, the notes just need to be 'on' with little effort).
Then you try to find the right spot to fret a note (close to the fretwire), and try to get a feel for the minimum amount of force required to get a good clean note.

The same with picking, I don't pick hard, I just gently strike each string, but I strike it effectively.
(aside from that I've also paid a lot of attention to my muting, to get a sound as clean as possible, and I've spent a lot of time trying to perfect my bending and vibrato, so everything I play has decent intonation).

Then you can play in a very relaxed and easy way, because you don't have to move your hands that much. I think Yngwie Malmsteen is a perfect example of someone who gets maximum speed and tone with minimal effort. He makes it all look really easy because his hands are very relaxed and don't need to move around a lot to play fast and accurately.
Michael Romeo is another one of those players that's really 'effortless'.

I don't really practice as such, I just play along with the radio, TV or I put on a CD/backing etc. I throw in fast runs etc, which is where I get my practice and speed from, I guess.


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## stubhead (Nov 11, 2008)

Sounds mental to me.... No - cheap shot, sorry. But seriously, if you're still putting in the time to maintain your chops, tightening up and losing speed doesn't seem like a technical issue to me. I'm 50 (pushing 51) and I've been playing 37 years. I notice both long and short-term ebbs & cycles in my playing, some of then lasting a couple of _years._ To avoid getting tense, it's a good idea to remember that you _can't_ force technical improvement, you just have to set up the framework of knowledge to allow it to fill in. 

Playing actually relaxes me at this point, even when I'm trying to learn something hard. I had to learn some Bach violin parts for a friend's wedding this spring that had me a little freaky, but I know enough about my own processes that I know I could only put a couple of hours daily - MAX- into that, combined into with my regular practice routines. More than that would've _hurt_ my ability to play them... I ended up simplifying some passages, hey you get what you pay for, always hit the high notes and 98% of the people'll never, ever notice.... 

I consider 45 minutes a day to be the minimum for _my_ basic chops maintenance, and I have some snotty 15-year-old guitar students who are overjoyed to remind me when my playing sounds senile and heading downhill.  Even then, there are daily and weekly "speed cycles" to deal with, and I don't claim to understand them. Top pros like Petrucci and Morse have excess speed to _burn_ - they can go out tired, worried & sick with flu and still hit all their parts just fine - god only knows how fast they could really play when they top out.

If you really want to get your speed "back" some basic metronome practice routines are a surefire cure, but (to go all cosmic & hippy-dippy here) I wonder if maybe you're just not _supposed_ to be playing fast this week/month/year. Maybe you're supposed to working on melodies. Or harmonizing. Or reading... or structuring, or ear training, or or or or.... 

*If whatever you're doing now is making you tense and you don't like playing it on your guitar, you could try playing something different for a while.*

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Here's my surefire, Morse-thefted speed cure:

Every day when you're specifically doing "speed exercises" you have to find your daily baseline tempo, that at which you can play an exercise perfectly. This can vary a lot, 10% or more - tiredness, a cold, lack of practice, that doesn't matter. Each exercise has a different baseline depending on difficulty too. I like to choose longer licks for myself, at least 16 notes with some string-crossing because it keeps me interested, regardless choose one exercise at a time to concentrate on. What Morse says, specifically, is:



> Play the exercise and alternate it with some scales or modes that you already know. Do this for five minutes at the baseline tempo, trying to play each note perfectly in time. Every five minutes, move up one bpm, and repeat what you just did.
> 
> After 30 minutes of this, you should have moved up 5 bpm from your baseline tempo. Remember what was the fastest tempo at which you could play all the notes perfectly. It may be your original baseline tempo, but usually you'll hit a higher number in a repetition like this. Now, _take the fastest tempo and add 10 percent._ Round off the increased number to the nearest setting your machine will display.
> 
> Play the exercise and alternate with scales at this increased tempo for five minutes, regardless of whether or not you are making mistakes. Turn off the metronome, and play the exercise one time perfectly, probably at a slower tempo. Now do whatever you want until tomorrow.



What this does is kick open the door to the _possibility_ of always increasing-speed. I actually like to play them slow and fast, sort of ties in with Petrucci's "burst" method (which he doubtless got somewhere further back too). As my _other_ biggest influence John McLaughlin says:


> Speed and fluency are a combination of two things. First and foremost, in your imagination, you must hear yourself playing in this way, or it won't happen for you on the fretboard. Secondly, be willing to attack the problem of inarticulation through work and application of exercises.



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I thought this following (PDF) paper was fascinating, about 
*"What Musicians Can Learn about Practicing from Current Brain Research"* by Molly Gebrian:

http://www.newenglandconservatory.e...racticingandCurrentBrainResearchbyGebrian.pdf


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 11, 2008)

^ Good post. 

And the article, awesome. Just one more reason why everyone should take an introductory psychology course. 

I skimmed through the article and it seems to focus mostly on motor skills, but as a corollary in case they didn't mention it, it's the same thing with learning/memorizing stuff. One may remember that it's good to allow newly learned material to "sink in." That's true, and because it's best to rehearse over longer (read: spaced out) intervals of time. 

Also, I don't know how deeply the article went into it, but during REM sleep is when memories are converted from short term to long term memory and such.

But anyway, excellent post. I wish these articles were more widespread and more people would learn that those 18-hour practice sessions aren't helping too much.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Nov 11, 2008)

i think it sounds like its part mental, and part lack of motivation. i have been getting bored with music for the last few years and my motivation had been suffering. the last 6 months or so i'v really pushed myself to keep a practice regimine and the motivation has returned. 
some times you have to look at a mountian and just start climbing. if you sit worrying about all that can happen, your not going to get much done, but if you just put your head down and start, you'll be at the top before you know it


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## Maniacal (Nov 11, 2008)

I havent read much of this thread. 

What I will say though is that I too have gotten slower over the years. 

I see now that it has a lot to do with focus. 

When I was 18 I basically lived for the guitar, and it showed in my playing. I was quite capable of picking 280 bpm 16ths for about a minute (the petrucci exercise) along with a lot of cooley stuff at top speed. 

As I got older I started to have a lot of distractions, mostly negative ones. Now when I practice (this rarely happens) I am not anywhere near as focused as I used to be, nor can I find the desire to be insanely good. 

This may not be the case for you, maybe you still have that iron will that is dead set on becoming a machine gun. 

My point being, one of the main factors for getting good at anything is desire. 

Once that desire is gone, your skills willl slowly diminish until you are just human again.


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## Luan (Nov 11, 2008)

Maniacal said:


> When I was 18 I basically lived for the guitar, and it showed in my playing. I was quite capable of picking 280 bpm 16ths for about a minute (the petrucci exercise) along with a lot of cooley stuff at top speed.



you mean 208bpm right?


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 11, 2008)

Luan said:


> you mean 208bpm right?



No, I bet he meant 280. It's not impossible, plus, have you seen his Dean Shredder vid?


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## Luan (Nov 11, 2008)

I have reached the 208, but I think that it's impossible to reach 280. The one who knows if he is cheating (playing not to tempo 16th notes) is the player himself, but I would like to see a video of him playing if he really claims he could play that fast.


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## Maniacal (Nov 11, 2008)

No I meant 280.

And I cant play that fast now. 

I can do about 240 for a minute though, still pretty good I think. 

I have seen people pick faster than 280, although most dont accent so it can be hard to tell. 

I accented every 8.


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## Luan (Nov 11, 2008)

I watching your video right now, great picking technique!
I would like to know how does it sounds 16th notes at 240 and how do you pick them, or anybody else if there is any video out there.
If you want a suggestion on your technique: practice vibrato, check the videos of petrucci explaining it in the guitar world tv site, it helped me a lot really. I think the rest of your technique is perfect, really.


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## Maniacal (Nov 11, 2008)

Personally, I like my vibrato. I can do a lot of ranges very easily, I didnt think vibrato was the most important in a shredding competition though. Plus, I dont like petruccis playing or tone so I wouldnt watch lessons by him. 

How do I pick them? From the wrist, and I accent every 8 notes usually. 

When I can be bothered to pick up my guitar again, I will be doing a series of youtube lessons on developing picking speed. 

Being a drummer certainly helped me I think. 

Theodore Ziras can do 300 bpm 16ths, there was a video on his site. 

Although it was only a 8-10 second exercise.


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## Luan (Nov 11, 2008)

You can compare your vibrato with the rest of the players and check if you like it or not. For me it's the difference of a player that has really cared about technique. Mikael Akerfeldt has excellent technique and never plays fast, never. He can make notes sing incredible, and that is something I never see in rock/metal guitarists, I think JP can do that too, including better, but if you don't care it's ok I guess.
If you are a drummer maybe it has helped you to control muscles tension, right?
And the 300 bpm thing it's just not possible, really. Bakerman have said that cooley didn't reached the 50&#37; of the notes he played slow on the betcha cant play this, and I trust him since I know he not only listen to everything in detail, but also know when something is recorded in 1 entire take or in fragments, etc.
Sure it's fast, but it's not true.


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## Maniacal (Nov 11, 2008)

I believe Rusty can play at the speeds he does, and that he picks every note. His betcha cant play this is not impossible. 
I dont know who Bakerman is, does he slow loads of guitarists playing down?

I am actually more of jazz/fusion guy than a metal guitarist. I just enjoy writing impossible riffs on my 8 string. Id rather be able to phrase well than play fast, I just happened to work on my technique to such a point where I could play fast. 

I think drumming helped because it trains you to stay relaxed and work on endurance, not speed. 

The speed just comes if you keep pushing it while relaxed.


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## Luan (Nov 11, 2008)

Bakerman is a famous transcriber, and the better I've found, his dedication and work it's incredible, he can transcribe anything. Once a guy uploaded an audio file of him playing the arpeggios of one dream theater song (glass prison) and said it was on 1 entire take. Bakerman said "it isn't on 1 take, the sweep picking section is pasted", and this guy had to confess haha and explained why he did it.


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## Maniacal (Nov 11, 2008)

Thats one good ear! Does he play guitar? Has he got a website or youtube?


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## Luan (Nov 11, 2008)

Bakerman - John Petrucci Forums

there you have a thread in which he talks about his job.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

Maniacal said:


> Personally, I like my vibrato. I can do a lot of ranges very easily, I didnt think vibrato was the most important in a shredding competition though. Plus, I dont like petruccis playing or tone so I wouldnt watch lessons by him.



Coming from another Rusty Cooley fan... 

There's actually a LOT you can learn from Petrucci, even if you're more into Cooley. Cooley's amazing, but Petrucci is probably the most well-rounded of the top-tier shred guys I've personally ever heard. I've heard moments of his playign where he's copping a surprisingly good Satriani vibe ("Curve," the opening of his "Acid Rain" solo), he's one of the few players in any genre I've ever hear really nail the Gilmour vibe (check out the Dark Side of the Moon official bootleg, or the live video of "Comfortably Numb" with Fates Warning, I think), and before Cooley broke out he might have been one of the fastest alternate pickers I've ever heard. He's also clearly in posession of a deep command of music theory. 

Let's put it this way - I'm sure Cooley has a ton of respect for the guy, and probably owns Rock Dicipline. If your heros think he's worth learning from, you can probably pick something up from him as well. Worst comes to worst, if you watch some of his instructional material and don't take something valuable away, what are you out at most? A half hour of your time?

By the way, don't discount vibrato in a shred video - think of all the really "big name" shredders, Yngwie, Satriani, Vai, Petrucci, Gilbert... All of them have very distinctive, expressive vibratos. In fact, the first time I saw Satch (my personal biggest influence) live, what really bowled me over wasn't his technique, but his vibrato. 

There's a million youtube shredders who can blaze through scales as good as those guys. None of them will ever "make it" as shred guitarists unless they can build the total package, and part of that (along with phrasing and songwriting) is their vibrato.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

Anyway, on speed... 

I have some VERY old mp3's from not too long after I started playing, maybe 4 years in, after I discovered "shred." I'm not sure, but I think I might have been faster then than I am today. 

Why am I not worried about that? Because I'm a HELL of a lot more accurate and controlled today. Back then, I was kind of spasming along the fretboard, playing really fast, but really just moving my hands really fast in key. Today, I actively phrase a bit more. My phrasing still isn't phenominal, but it's less me playing on autopilot and more me making conscious decisions to play a given series of notes. 

Additionally, my technique is much cleaner - I have less trouble with open string ringing out, I have to rely less on gain to keep my legato smooth, I fret notes more cleanly, and I feel a little more rhythmically in the groove. 

So, don't be afraid if you've lost a little speed over the years, but gained a ton of ground in other areas - back then I was fast, but inaccurate. Today I'm marginally slower, but I have a much stronger "foundation" to my technique. This both makes me a better guitarist today, but also makes it possible for me to be an even better guitarist tomorrow, if I can hold onto my stronger control on the instrument while continuing to build speed. 

Steve Morse likes to joke, on the subject of his conversion from economy back to strict alternate picking, that "today, I'm almost as fast as I was ten years ago." At the same time, it's pretty clear that he's not saying he's an inferior guitarist today; he's more in control, and sometimes control is worth a tradeoff in speed.


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## Luan (Nov 12, 2008)

Great post Drew!

Petrucci not only knows a lot of theory, but actually he does apply it.
Listen to the solo of a change of seasons. Isn't that fusion or whatever?
I still can't believe how well he managed to go through the changes, using common notes between 2 chords of complete different scales, with actually good phrases, good vibrato and good articulation.


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 12, 2008)

Drew, you've made some good points in your post, but I'm going to have to disagree. Not on the grounds that Petrucci isn't versatile or well-rounded or knowledgeable, but that Maniacal doesn't want what he has to offer-- at least at this time. 

It's an intrinsic motivation thing. If he doesn't like that approach, I can almost guarantee that learning with that will be a dissatisfying, boring process. 

For instance, you mentioned David Gilmour. Now I don't think any sensible guitarist is going to say he played poorly or without good merit. But I... dislike classic rock and most other musical offshoots that came at that time (in case someone wants to argue that Pink Floyd isn't classic rock; it doesn't affect my arguement), and so I don't want to learn anything from it. 

I'm not saying I couldn't listen to a Gilmour solo, or even enjoy it, but why should I study it? Expressiveness, phrasing in improvisation, vibrato? 

There are many other fonts of expressive playing in music; I write all of my music down and will likely die before improvising in a studio situation, so I'm not concerned if I can improvise the perfect solo; and there are other players whose vibrato I admire and whose music I prefer. 

Maybe he feels similiarly about Petrucci: it's just not what he wants.

Besides, he expressed that he was satisfied with his vibrato, and so is there any need for him to change it? If he can express whatever musical concepts he wants, how he wants with his current approach, then why would he change?


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## Luan (Nov 12, 2008)

I don't like pink floyd at all, but I notice that gilmour has a great technique for bending, altough he doesn't have a great vibrato. You can learn to play his solos, it's not easy to copy a solo like that. People actually think that vibrato and bending is easy and they don't care about it. I think that doing it with great sounding is actually harder. Phrasing is something very hard, knowing how to articulate notes is something hard, even if you know how it's supossed to be done.
I never say to someone "practice vibrato", because they will not do it. This were an exception, I thought this guy played well but could improve that aspect, he doesn't care, nobody cares, fine.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

I think you're misunderstanding me, man. 

I'm not saying he should strive to sound like Petrucci, nor would I say you should strive to sound like Gilmour. I'm just saying that if you have a chance to either take a lesson from one of them or watch an instructional video by one of them, I'd strongly recommend taking it, even if it's not a genre you're into or a player you want to sound like. 

Why? Because in my limited experience, you can always learn something from someone, and all else equal the more you've learned the higher the potential for you to be a better player. 

Petrucci's discussion on "inside" and "outside" picking alone is worth the cost of Rock Dicipline, just to take one example. There's a ton more useful information in there, from some tricky warmu0p drills to some practical thoughts about constructing lead lines. It's possible that Maniacal may have already seen many of these insights, through the filters of other players that have been influenced by Petrucci, but it's equally possible he may not have and he'll come away thinking, "Oh, that's an excellent point." 

More to the point, though, I was responding primarily to the two sentences in his original post - that he didn't think vibrato is important for shred, and that he saw no reason to watch a Petrucci instructional video on YouTube because he didn't like his playing or tone. I question both statements, that vibrato IS a very important part of shred and is part of what makes a shredder "musical" instead of "robotic" (not the only part, but an important one), and that intentionally not seeking out a chance to watch a quick instructional video that was recommended to you because you're not a huge fan of his playing or tone is closed-minded. For one, his tone is really sort of secondary to any discussion of technique, and for two just because you don't happen to really dig what a player DOES with the technique he has doesn't mean you can't learn something from him if he's talking about the technique. At the end of the day, technique is just a tool, and if you're discounting tools because you don't happen to like what someone's built with them, then you're seriously limiting the arsenol in your toolbox. 

Myself, if someone honestly thinks I could benefit from watching a video on YouTube, then I figure I lose nothing by watching it, no matter if it's Rusty Cooley, Marshall Harrison, or Jack White.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

Luan said:


> I don't like pink floyd at all, but I notice that gilmour has a great technique for bending, altough he doesn't have a great vibrato.



 You know, I've always said I thought Gilmour's vibrato was the weakest part of his playing. It's pretty fast and narrow, while I tend to prefer wider vibratos myself. 

Also, FWIW, Gilmour isn't really a strict "improv" player - over the years he's taken some heat for constructing solos lick by lick in the studio. That doesn't change the fact that his phrasing is about the best I've ever heard.

By the way, you know what's a surprisingly difficult drill? Play a simple "box" diatonic scale in either 8ths or quarters, at a casual tempo, but from the instant you fret every note, apply vibrato (classical or blues, your choice - might as well try both). It feels surprisingly weird, but do it for ten minutes and your hands will begin to burn. It's way harder than it sounds.


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## TonalArchitect (Nov 12, 2008)

Ah, okay, I see. 

And yeah, from what I heard (that is, been subjected to by old people [and young people] listening to it on the radio) I don't like his vibrato either. It is distinctive though, not that that is necessarily a good thing.

I would hate composing like Gilmour did. Improvising lots and takes and then picking through them. Meaning: I have to write it down. But he took crap for that? That's terrible. I mean what's wrong with composing?  

On another note, I get tired of people bitching about how they do a million takes and never quite get exactly what they want. That's all fine and cool if that's what one prefers, but maybe try thinking it through or writing it down and spend less time complaining. 

I am a writing-shit-down-whore, though.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

TonalArchitect said:


> Ah, okay, I see.
> 
> And yeah, from what I heard (that is, been subjected to by old people [and young people] listening to it on the radio) I don't like his vibrato either. It is distinctive though, not that that is necessarily a good thing.
> 
> ...



I hate composing solos. It's just how I play - when I start "writing," my playiong loses all spontaniaty and sounds very calculated and overly thought out, to me anyway. I prefer to come up with a rough "melodic contour" for a solo of about where I want it to go and loosely how I want it to sound, and then improvise around in that mode until I get something I like. Then, if need be, I can re-learn what it is I played. 

Part of it, to be fair, is also that I'm lazy.  

It was more the fact he was taking bits and peices from a whole ton of takes and then sticking them together, rather than playing the solo through in one entire chunk, I gather. 

It took me a while to "get" Gilmour - it seemed to me that I couldn't see what the big deal about his playing was, since none of it was really all that hard - but when I did, I got his playing in a big way. Even if you then want too go and speed it up a ton and add a whole slew of additional notes, you can learn a ton by just listening to _which_ notes he's playing, IMO. Hell, you'd probably come out sounding something like George Lynch if you did - I have no idea if he claims Gilmour as an influence, but he's another guy with very distinctive phrasing who definitely reminds me a bit of David Gilmour.


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## stubhead (Nov 12, 2008)

At the risk of going outside the box factory for the second time in a single thread:

I have learned a lot more by trying to play music I don't entirely like, than by trying to play music I already love - and I think this effect intensifies the better you are, because I already _know_ how to get better with small incremental steps within a style or genre. If you're interested in cultivating sudden, transformational leaps, it's the people who you _don't_ like or listen to who have the most to offer you, unless a tribute band is your ultimate goal. Read what Andy Timmons, John 5 and Zakk Wylde have to say about really, seriously learning the hybrid chicken pickin' style. You'll find the best advice on it from Brent Mason, Johnny Hiland, other people I wouldn't sit and listen to unless I _wanted_ something from them. _Especially_ if your practice time is short, your playing can make bigger jumps if you get outside. Learn a polka - seriously, learn to play it well... hook up a volume pedal and spend a _week_ learning how to play violin parts, correctly.

My latest OCD trigger is a Warmoth short-scale fretless five-string tenor bass (E A D G C) and I've been working really, really hard on playing foghorn choirs - I can't stand that ordinary Pastorius burpy/chainfart style. 
I'm pretty sure that what I'm trying to do doesn't even exist yet - I have to _listen_ to foghorns and whale calls, fer christssakes - it sucks. But I'm getting a hell of a tingle....

(I recommend Petrucci's video to my students because he's stolen the best bits of Morse, Gilbert & Eric Johnson's - one stop shopping there, even if you hate Dream Theater's pretentious guts. I sure wish LaBrie & Rudess would go back to their bathhouse gig cause Petrucci's solo album is great, even though it does sound like a greatest hits (of other guitarists) collection.... one-stop shred shopping?)


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## Maniacal (Nov 12, 2008)

Please dont put words in my mouth. 
I said:
"I didnt think vibrato was the most important in a shredding competition though"

If I was recording an album, different story. I knew I would not win this competition so I was not very fussy about my playing. 

Of course vibrato is important, in any style of music. 

And regarding Petrucci, lets compare him to Holdsworth....why drive a mini when you have a porsche?

Petrucci has nothing on Holdsworth or Henderson, and I dont really enjoy his predictable and very boring playing. 

I have an opinion, get over it.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

Maniacal said:


> Please dont put words in my mouth.
> I said:
> "I didnt think vibrato was the most important in a shredding competition though"
> 
> ...



...and I have one too - that you're being closed-minded, and limiting yourself. 

This is especially true if you stop and think a moment about the two players' playing styles you named. Holdsworth is known for being one of the most dominant legato players ever to walk the face of the earth, while Petrucci is known as a fearsome alternate picker. 

What at _ALL_ do they have in common? Or, to further your analogy, why only drive a Porsche when you could also take a spin in a Ferarri, a Corvette, a Lamborghini, a Bugatti, and then also have a Mini for those quick spins into the city to pick up groceries? 



> If I was recording an album, different story. I knew I would not win this competition so I was not very fussy about my playing.
> 
> Of course vibrato is important, in any style of music.



...so why intentionally leave it out when recording a video for a competition?

You can burn, dude, no doubt. But you'll be a better player for it if you don't discount what you can learn from all but a select handful of players.


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## Scali (Nov 12, 2008)

Drew said:


> ...so why intentionally leave it out when recording a video for a competition?


 
I don't think I'd even be capable of doing that. It's a cornerstone of my playing technique, it's automatic. I can't play if I have to concentrate on NOT using vibrato. I've always considered it something you either have, or you don't.


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## Maniacal (Nov 12, 2008)

Drew said:


> ...and I have one too - that you're being closed-minded, and limiting yourself.
> 
> This is especially true if you stop and think a moment about the two players' playing styles you named. Holdsworth is known for being one of the most dominant legato players ever to walk the face of the earth, while Petrucci is known as a fearsome alternate picker.
> 
> ...




Ive listened to a lot of Petrucci, his playing just doesnt do it for me. I think thats fair enough. 

I think my alternate picking alone shows that I dont just learn Holdsworth style legato. I dont think Petrucci would be able to teach me much about alternate picking, however arrogant that sounds I dont care. I can easily keep up with him and then some. He may be a God to a lot of players but he isnt for me, I dont think that should offend any of you. 

I didnt intentionally leave out loads of vibrato, I just didnt take the competition very seriously.


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## Drew (Nov 12, 2008)

Thanks for a slightly less knee-jerk response.  

However, he's also a very knowledgeable player when it comes to theory and composition, as well. More importantly though, we could go back and forth with this for hours, but I think what I'm trying to say is that automatically saying "I can learn nothing from someone, because I don't like their tone and playing" really only does _yourself_ a disservice at the end of the day, because you're limiting the pool of potential influences or potential sources of knowledge you could have. 

I've always been surprised by just how much I've learned from people I never expected to - if you're willing to listen to anything I have to say, then the one thing I'd tell you is never automatically discount a source. You lose nothing by giving it a look. This isn't even about Petrucci, this is just kind of a general statement - you've obviously got a lot of promise, and I just hate to see you saying things like "why would I listen to what so-and-so has to say? I don't like his tone or playing."


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## Maniacal (Nov 12, 2008)

I am not really limiting myself, since I have already given him a listen and dont like like his playing. Its not like I only listen to a certain style of music and nothing else. 

Pretty pointless argument if you ask me. Im sure there are plenty of other guitarists on here that dont like a certain guitar player. It doesnt make them close minded or ignorant. 

Anyway, bed time.


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