# Super tight industrial metal sound?



## ProphetOfHatred (May 5, 2015)

Okay, so I've listened to a lot of industrial metal today, and put on Destroy Erase Improve cause why not, I'm just wondering... HOW the .... do they get such a tight sound on the guitars? Is it all in the post-production or what? Honestly I was just playing my 6260 and I seriously cannot get close. There's always this muddy thickness going on in my tone even with a TS, of any kind that I've tried, and there's this weird high mid sound coming from the amp, it's kinda hard to describe but it's like a layered high mid rattling sound that covers everything.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (May 5, 2015)

Industrial metal always makes me think of EMG's or PAF's into a super aggressive boosted Rectifier on the red/modern setting  or a scooped Marshall. 

It's just in the nature of the 6260 to have that mid presence, since it's heavily based on the 5150. Those amps have more mids at 3 than most others do at 8.


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## USMarine75 (May 5, 2015)

Dry amp, OD, scooped mids, and a noise gate.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 5, 2015)

I think DEI was done with Dual Rectos, a Universe with Blaze pickups, and the TC Integrated preamp (probably with some extreme settings).


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## Shask (May 5, 2015)

When I think of Industrial Metal, I think Ministry, not Meshuggah.....



Anyways, yeah, DEI was a Recto with the TC preamp. My Triple Recto with an OD808 or EQ in front sounds pretty close to that. Your playing style has a lot to do with it also. I can get that sound, but it takes me kind of scraping the palm mutes more than normal.


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## sage (May 5, 2015)

The mid knob. Turn it all the way down. Turn down the amp's gain. Get gnarly with your OD's gain, or better yet, a distortion of some sort. Then get really picky about the EQ in post. Live, I've never heard an industrial band pull off the cold, scrapy guitar sound. It's always fuller and fatter, especially close up to the stage where you end up hearing a bunch of the natural amp sound before it hits the board. Probably because they have to turn the mids up so they can hear themselves on stage. Scooped mids make your disappear in an on-stage situation.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 5, 2015)

Shask said:


> When I think of Industrial Metal, I think Ministry, not Meshuggah.....



I was thinking that, too.  I don't hear a lot of industrial metal bands with great tone. There's SOME out there, but most of the time it's pretty generic or just flat-out bad.


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## Abaddon9112 (May 5, 2015)

Yeah actual industrial uses pretty much whatever tone the guitarist wants. Anything from old 80s thrash tones to Nu Metal triple rec stuff or whatever. 

Meshuggah and the like are really all about boosting the amp with an OD, not using excessive gain, and playing technique. There's really not _that_ much science to getting those kind of tones.


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## Shask (May 5, 2015)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I was thinking that, too.  I don't hear a lot of industrial metal bands with great tone. There's SOME out there, but most of the time it's pretty generic or just flat-out bad.




Most of them just sound like a distortion pedal plugged into the mixer.


One exception though is Rammstein. Always an amazing huge tone


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## Spinedriver (May 5, 2015)

The thing that disappoints me about different bands' tones is finding out that there are half a dozen guitar tracks layered on top of each other, as well as the fact that they use several different amps & guitars along with it. Granted, there are some that just double track which isn't so bad. 

It's just that when someone looks for suggestions on how they can emulate a certain guitarist's tone, it's not always as easy as just using the same amp/guitar combination that they may have used on a certain recording.

It's like when you hear a band that you know only has 1 guitar player in it but there are 2 or 3 distinct guitar tracks going on at the same time.

All that being said, when I think of "industrial", I think of KMFDM, Ministry, Front Line Assembly and possibly even Static X but definitely not Meshuggah.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 5, 2015)

That's usually how a lot of industrial metal bands work. Very simple guitar parts, but they layer the ever-living .... out of them. Older Static-X and Rammstein come to mind. It's probably bull...., but one of the guys from Rammstein claimed for the Mutter album, they layered 24 tracks for the guitar parts.


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## Lokasenna (May 5, 2015)

Spinedriver said:


> The thing that disappoints me about different bands' tones is finding out that there are half a dozen guitar tracks layered on top of each other, as well as the fact that they use several different amps & guitars along with it. Granted, there are some that just double track which isn't so bad.



To me, the problem here is that you're expecting to achieve a band's tone with (say) one double-tracked amp when their tone is built from three hundred tracks of four different amps. I agree that it sucks when all you want to do is jam along and nothing does the trick, but ultimately you might as well be singing live and trying to make it sound like a Blind Guardian choir.


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## ProphetOfHatred (May 5, 2015)

Getting a lecture about what's industrial metal or not... lol. I'm well aware Meshuggah isn't industrial metal, I mentioned Destroy Erase Improve because the tone on the amp sounds pretty much the same as Fear Factory, this super tightness I can't achieve.


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## B.M.F. (May 5, 2015)

What they used: 
Meshuggah used Marshall Valvestates on that album for the rhythm tones (not the solos!) and they used Line 6 POD Pro's and Vettas after that. As for Fear Factory, Dino used to use Line 6 modelers into Mesa Boogie tube power amps. So it's mostly solid-state amps or modelers possibly adding a nice tube power amp into the chain, that can get you that sound. You can also get the same kind of sound using pedals like the Amptweaker Tight Metal into a nice poweramp. 

But does that mean you can't get that kind of sound with a tube amp? Not at all!
What you can do: Try using an EQ pedal like the Boss GE-7 in the loop with these settings:

100 (-3db) prevents power amp farting at loud volumes. Bass guitar has these low freq anyway. 
200 (0db). 
400 (-10db). Mid cut adds clarity. Adjust to taste. 
800 (-5db). This must always be half of what 400 is. Adjust to taste. 
1.2k (-2db). 
3.2k (0db). 
6.4k (-3db). Eliminates the annoying "fizz" that sounds like crap. 
Turn on your tube screamer and adjust the knobs on the amp AFTER engaging these EQ settings and you will tame the mids on that 6260 to get the super tight "industrial" cold SS-like sound you desire. I do this all the time with my 5150iii and I love it.


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## JeffHenneman (May 5, 2015)

Spinedriver said:


> The thing that disappoints me about different bands' tones is finding out that there are half a dozen guitar tracks layered on top of each other, as well as the fact that they use several different amps & guitars along with it. Granted, there are some that just double track which isn't so bad.
> 
> It's just that when someone looks for suggestions on how they can emulate a certain guitarist's tone, it's not always as easy as just using the same amp/guitar combination that they may have used on a certain recording.
> 
> ...



I know exactly how you feel, especially when they layer with amps at the opposite side of the spectrum: Recto/5150 or Recto/Marshall. There is almost no way to get that with one amp.


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## TRENCHLORD (May 6, 2015)

Metal Zone into valve-state or mosfet clean channel is the cheap fix.
Boosted recto combined with vht deliverance is the pricey version.


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## vick1000 (May 6, 2015)

6260 is not a very mid range tight amp, especially with stock tubes. You will have to dial back the gain and really hit the front with mids, a TS9 may not be enough, another solution is an EQ out front. Then you can start delving into tight noise gates and compressors out front. Pickups and technique matter as well.


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## cGoEcYk (May 6, 2015)

Industrial is usually the crappiest sound they can find.

DEI tone... what everyone said, also cut lows. OP- maybe try cutting lows. The bass is also a huge part of the overall tone on that album (I believe _the bass_ was recorded through a Mesa 50 Cal).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUnB2dUaJfM


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## JeffHenneman (May 6, 2015)

cGoEcYk said:


> Industrial is usually the crappiest sound they can find.
> 
> DEI tone... what everyone said, also cut lows. OP- maybe try cutting lows. The bass is also a huge part of the overall tone on that album (I believe _the bass_ was recorded through a Mesa 50 Cal).
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUnB2dUaJfM



Good point about the bass. As guitarist we forget the bass sometimes. We hear scooped mids and automatically assume 99% of the tone is the guitar. I know a lot of producers blend the bass and guitar so well it sounds as one in the same.


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## JohnIce (May 6, 2015)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> That's usually how a lot of industrial metal bands work. Very simple guitar parts, but they layer the ever-living .... out of them. Older Static-X and Rammstein come to mind. It's probably bull...., but one of the guys from Rammstein claimed for the Mutter album, they layered 24 tracks for the guitar parts.



Off-topic, but having spent some time with their producer and hearing about their recording process, I don't think that's bull.... at all  I mean Kruspe has a damn remote controlled cab mic robot, they really are that german.


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## Spinedriver (May 6, 2015)

Another tool you can use to get rid of "ugly" mids is a BBE Sonic Maximizer. Most people hate them because they boost bass & treble but cut the mids. In this case, it would be almost ideal.


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## Abaddon9112 (May 6, 2015)

Spinedriver said:


> Another tool you can use to get rid of "ugly" mids is a BBE Sonic Maximizer. Most people hate them because they boost bass & treble but cut the mids. In this case, it would be almost ideal.



+1
The Sonic Maximizer can indeed work wonders on dark, farty guitar tones. The trick to making them work is mainly just not turning the controls up super high. I use one occasionally with the lo contour and process both about 9 o'clock on old modelers.


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## mr coffee (May 6, 2015)

My playing evolved a lot when I started learning KMFDM stuff from around the Angst era, I really wanted to attain that ridiculously tight machine-like approach like Gunter and spent hours every day working toward it. I was using Rockman rackmount gear at the time which had a good sound for that style. My EQ was scooped to some extent, but not as much as one might have expected. As much as I love my 6505+, it's a different animal altogether, and probably not as well suited to that crisp industrial sound.

Your playing has a lot to do with it as well, but that should go without saying...

-m


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## warlock7strEMG (May 7, 2015)

When I think of good industrial metal tones, I instantly think of fear factory demanufactured and obsolete. I know they are not particularly on industrial band, but they are definitely a metal band with a very industrial feel and tone/production values. 

Dino actually got the tone on the those 2 albums with an old JCM800 2203 that was modded for more gain and I believe 6550 or KT88 power tubes. He also boosted it with an OD for more tightness. That high mid voiced amp booster and mixed with the dark but mid range heavy basswood Ibanez RG7 with an EMG 707(low mid heavy but tight) at the bridge will more or less get you good tight industrial metal tone. 

I know this for a fact because I played my roommate/band mates Basswood Ibanez RG7 with a 707 into a boosted 2204 with KT88's but not otherwise modded, and with the Krank Rev cab that it was going into it I could get the old Dino tone easily. Being a tight player helps a lot too. Not that I am that tight of a player but still hahaha. I can fake it sometimes 

I know there are other types of industrial metal tones and other ways to get the fear factory tone, but the method that I mentioned definitely works.


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## Spinedriver (May 7, 2015)

mr coffee said:


> My playing evolved a lot when I started learning KMFDM stuff from around the Angst era, I really wanted to attain that ridiculously tight machine-like approach like Gunter and spent hours every day working toward it. I was using Rockman rackmount gear at the time which had a good sound for that style. My EQ was scooped to some extent, but not as much as one might have expected. As much as I love my 6505+, it's a different animal altogether, and probably not as well suited to that crisp industrial sound.
> 
> Your playing has a lot to do with it as well, but that should go without saying...
> 
> -m



I saw KMFDM live back in '04 and one of the guitarists at the time was using a Vetta II w/an LTD EC-400 and it sounded pretty badass.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 7, 2015)

warlock7strEMG said:


> dark but mid range heavy basswood Ibanez RG7 with an EMG 707



Demanufacture was recorded with an ESP M-1 with an EMG 81(?). That's probably why Demanufacture has a ungodly tight tone; alder guitar, and a brighter pickup. Obsolete sounds quite mushy when compared to Demanufacture.


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## mr coffee (May 7, 2015)

Spinedriver said:


> I saw KMFDM live back in '04 and one of the guitarists at the time was using a Vetta II w/an LTD EC-400 and it sounded pretty badass.



I saw them in the old days on the Beat By Beat tour. I don't remember what they were using.

Having thought about it for a bit now, if I were starting from scratch I would start with crisp, high output pickups, solid state gear, careful EQ based on the frequencies used by synths and other instrumentation, and fairly aggressive compression and gating. Alternatively, EQ everything else to make room for the guitars.

-m


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## Dead-Pan (May 7, 2015)

For me it's all about a od808 in front and a mxr 10 band in the loop. The BBE can add something if used right. 

Here is a test I did:

https://soundcloud.com/dead-pan/kemper-eq-and-compression-test


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## warlock7strEMG (May 7, 2015)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Demanufacture was recorded with an ESP M-1 with an EMG 81(?). That's probably why Demanufacture has a ungodly tight tone; alder guitar, and a brighter pickup. Obsolete sounds quite mushy when compared to Demanufacture.



.... that's right!! I knew that but it slipped my mind. That explains the difference in tone between albums. Same head and V30 cab on both albums so same round about tone. But Demanufacture has a tighter more percussive sound where as Obsolete was thicker, more round and warmer. The sound I got with that KT88 2204 and RG7 with a 707 was more similar to Obsolete now that I think about it. But I am okay with that, because I actually prefer that albums guitar tone out of the two


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## ProphetOfHatred (May 7, 2015)

Thanks guys, I might try a BBE Sonic Stomp pedal when I get money, it's either that or I'm changing tubes in my amp. I think eventually I'll invest in a JCM or Marshall style amp for a super tight tone for my studio in progress.


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## JeffHenneman (May 7, 2015)

ProphetOfHatred said:


> Thanks guys, I might try a BBE Sonic Stomp pedal when I get money, it's either that or I'm changing tubes in my amp. I think eventually I'll invest in a JCM or Marshall style amp for a super tight tone for my studio in progress.



A sonic maximize will instantaneously turn any amp into a solid state tone.


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## Loomer (May 8, 2015)

JeffHenneman said:


> A sonic maximize will instantaneously turn any amp into a solid state tone.



Sounds like something I'd enjoy, then.


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## ProphetOfHatred (May 8, 2015)

JeffHenneman said:


> A sonic maximize will instantaneously turn any amp into a solid state tone.



Sounds pretty brutal. I also just found a review of the Randall Facepunch where someone uses it to bring back some beef his OD808 takes away, but the sound is still tight. I really want to try that now.


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## Dead-Pan (May 8, 2015)

I bbe can work like this also. Right after the boost before the amp. Probably the better way to use it.


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## Great Satan (May 8, 2015)

What most typifies industrial tone probably to me are bands like Fear Factory, Ministry & Rammstein,
but there are also other notable heavies like Killing joke, KMFDM and (early) Nine Inch Nails.

Fear Factory - Basically its all in the guitar with Dino, you get a longer-scale plank of wood (26.5" for 7's, and i think 28" for 8's) and put some actives in it (Emg 707's, SD Blackouts or his new signature actives, he had a hand in the development of all of them so they represent different eras for tone), you run that through any moderately high gain sound & you'll get pretty close. 
I mean hell, Dino has been using Pod HD's these last few tours/albums, i can attest you can get a pretty close sound even without the right guitar using those things, but having the guitar helps (7-string for Obsolete era, 8 string for the Mechanize, Industrialist & most probably new album).
Getting the guage right is pretty crucial too, he uses standard 10's with an extra 2 strings ( .52 & .64 respectively).

Ministry - god only knows, Mike Scaccia was their main guitarist for many years but he doesn't even appear on some albums, so its basically use whatever. 
In the 90's however (Filth Pig/Sphinctour) i'm pretty sure they used Marshall Jmp-1 rackmouts into poweramps into V30's. The Jmp-1's were a relatively new thing then so a lot of people were using them in the early 90's (especially 'industrial' artists who naturally embrace new technology).
Lately however both the guitarists for Ministry have been using the Blackstar HT Metal 100 6L6 heads (youtube vids show them endorsing it), but Al has also used a Crate VTX solidstate heads in the mid 00's too (i think both live & in the studio, but he also used a Plexi in the studio too).






Rammstein - Obviously EMG 81's into Rectifiers for RZK, or 81's into Engls/uberschalls/?'s (whatever Paul is using these days), but originally i think they both used the sansamp Psa-1 into Rectifiers for that earlier Mutter/Sensucht tone.
There's a lot of studio wizardry going on there for their studio sound though, so chasing the live sound might be a better idea... though basically get a les paul-style guitar with emg-81's and that'll be half the battle.

KMFDM -Günter Schulz (their best guitarist imo) used to use a stock PRS guitar into a Marshall Jmp-1 rack into the power section of a Peavey classic 100 head. I'm not sure if that's just live or also in the studio, as they use a lot of samplers etc, but plug a PRS into a Jmp-1 and you'll get the idea.

Killing Joke - a less heavy yet very grindy tone, Geordie uses a Gibson ES 295 (a big jazzbox with soapbar p90s which is pretty unusual for a metal band, let alone industrial) into a couple of modulated delay units and into Marshall JVM's (for the newer stuff anyway).

nine inch nails - the only trent album still worth a damn (to me) was the Broken album, and to get that sound he ran a Marshall Jmp-1 (again, seeing a pattern here?) into the cab simulation of a zoom 9030 & then direct.
Then you mess and utterly f*** about with it in the studio, but basicaly that's the initial setup for that Broken sound.

I'm probably missing out a couple important industrial-metal artists but that's a good basis for getting that sound down initially; marshall jmp-1's, rectifiers, active pickups, etc.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 8, 2015)

For Rammstein, Rich has ALWAYS used a Recto, with the exception of a TriAxis ran with a Recto live sometimes. Herzeleid ad Sehnsucht has this extreme high-end fizzyness, but at the same time has that "chunk" you'd hear from a real amp. Only exception woud be them 1994 demo, which sounds like 100% Sansamp. Paul had a really fluctuating rig. Up until Reise Reise he'd always use a PSA-1 ran into a Mesa power amp, but then switched to Engl for Reise/Rosenrot, then Uberschall for Liebe. Now he uses an Axe live, I think? Also, Paul used DiMarzio EVH/Axis pickups in his Music Mans for the longest time. Didn't switch to EMG until Reise Reise. 

Not sure about Ministry. With Psalm 69, it sounds like a distortion pedal running into Marshall or something.


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## sevenstringj (May 9, 2015)

ProphetOfHatred said:


> Sounds pretty brutal. I also just found a review of the Randall Facepunch where someone uses it to bring back some beef his OD808 takes away, but the sound is still tight. I really want to try that now.



You might also want to check out the Sparkle Drive. It's basically an 808 with a blend knob.


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## p4vl (May 9, 2015)

Shask said:


> Most of them just sound like a distortion pedal plugged into the mixer.
> 
> 
> One exception though is Rammstein. Always an amazing huge tone



Rammstein plugged their preamps directly into the mixer for their first few albums (Sansamp/Triaxis). Almost a different approach than plugging a pedal into a mixer. 

When I think of Industrial Metal I think of Godflesh, not horrible horrible metal apologists from the 90's.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (May 9, 2015)

Well since Dino and Meshuggah were mentioned, two big things you'll need then - long scale, and thin strings. I know someone mentioned earlier that Dino said he used 10-46 with a 52 for 7 strings, but I recall an interview where he said he was using 9-56 for his 7 strings, on a 26.5" guitar, in A Standard - pretty floppy.

Meshuggah also used 9-56 on their old universes, in Bb standard. On their M8Ms, they use 9-11-16-26-36-46-52-70, and when Fredrick uses a 27" 8 strings, 9-11-16-26-36-46-56-72 (or at least he did as of the March 2013 PG Rig Rundown)

So again, thin strings, long scale

Another big part of that huge beefy, tight industrial guitar sound comes, of course, from other instruments. The guitar itself, when you want something cutting and tight is rather thin and anemic sounding on its own - all the beef comes from a distorted bass doubling the guitar, and all the percussive tightness is the kick drum on every chugged guitar note. Without that, you'll never quite get what you're looking for


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 9, 2015)

I don't think the long scale is necessary, but if the OP needs it, it can be useful. A lot of those '90s industrial bands (Meshuggah, FF, Rammstein, Ministry, etc) all used 24.75'' - 25.5'' scale guitars. If they used baritones, they came in years later.


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## ProphetOfHatred (May 9, 2015)

Well I hate long scales so... Out of the question. I massively prefer PRS scale or under guitars, and will probably stick with guitars of that length.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (May 10, 2015)

Good point - and tight can be done on shorter guitars, tbh the tightest sounding guitars I have are my two Ibanez SZs - Mahogany bodied guitars with 25.1" scale.

Why do they sound tight? Good pickups, and thin strings. If you like a lot of tension, and you want a tight sound, you'll have to go long, just the way it is


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## mnemonic (May 10, 2015)

Cab will make a giant difference too, I was trying to get a meshuggah/DEI tone a while back using one of the Recto models in my Axe FX II, and I was having a bit of trouble until I started switching up the IR's. Theres one stock impulse in the Axe FX that is kind of 'meshuggah' sounding, but I had downloaded another one (I forget who from) that was basically insta-DEI tone when using the recto model with a boost.


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## Trashgreen (May 10, 2015)

Hearing the word industrial metal always make me think of Godflesh.

1989:




2014:







Godflesh is an old band, here is some info for those who haven't heard of them: 

Godflesh are highly regarded as one of the pioneers of industrial metal (or debated as industrial rock music); they took industrial to the next level with their fuse of heavy guitars and mixing it with slow drum loops and effects. Godflesh has influences ranging from initially Swans, Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin and industrial music very much like Killing Joke, Throbbing Gristle and even some folk from Leonard Cohen (most of his song/album titles and some lyrics were borrowed from him).

Contrary to popular belief, Godflesh isn't grindcore or death metal; they were an experimental form of industrial metal. Their sound was constantly evolving; at times, Godflesh moved practically completely away from "metal" only to move back with the next release. All around, the "industrial" element always stuck with them. 

They've been known to inspire countless bands ranging from Fear Factory, Danzig, Ministry, KoRn, Faith No More, Nine Inch Nails, even the likes of the Beastie Boys (the latter of which fomer Suicidal Tendencies drummer Amery Smith would eventually join and later leave).

At the same time, Godflesh started a new movement of music with bands mimicking a similar style to theirs, like Pitchshifter, Dead World, Scorn (early Scorn did feature Justin Broadrick on guitars), Sonic Violence, Red Harvest, and many other. Godflesh is also known to highly inspire the post hardcore/sludge genre with such bands like Isis and Pelican playing a style akin to Godflesh, just minus the industrial elements (though they are highly inspired by the sound layering and atmosphere Godflesh created).

Godflesh - Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives


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## Spinedriver (May 10, 2015)

Although Godflesh's earlier recordings might sound a bit primitive, there are a few tracks on Streetcleaner & Pure that are impressively heavy even by today's standards.


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## Grindspine (May 10, 2015)

Trashgreen said:


>




Heavy as f**k...

I have been a fan of Godflesh since Merciless/Selfless era in '92 or so... The new stuff is brutal, repetitive, crushing, and droning...


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## Great Satan (May 10, 2015)

p4vl said:


> When I think of Industrial Metal I think of Godflesh, not horrible horrible metal apologists from the 90's.



whatever that's supposed to mean...



Zeno said:


> I know someone mentioned earlier that Dino said he used 10-46 with a 52 for 7 strings



those numbers are accurate straight from the man himself, he no longer uses .9's (though he may have around Obsolete era).



ProphetOfHatred said:


> Well I hate long scales so... Out of the question. I massively prefer PRS scale or under guitars, and will probably stick with guitars of that length.



The extended scale point was more to do with that specific FF tone, his tone has everything to do with the guitar; you plug into just about anything moderately high gain with that same scale/gauge/pickups & you will get a very close approximation to that sound.

Everyone else though you can use any scale, Ministry have used Gibsons & Ibanez in the past but are now almost exclusively Schecter for the last (& final) tour, Paul Landers from Rammstein has his own signature Gibson now (standard scale i think..), KMFDM is PRS etc.


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