# Kiesel Vader Tremolo on 6, 7 and 8 Strings



## SnowfaLL (Dec 24, 2016)

Just an update to people who don't follow Jeff / Kiesel on fb - they announced a tremolo for 6/7/8's this morning. Limited time only its a $50 upcharge over normal Vaders (the trem is not limited time only). HH models will all have it also.

Its basically a Hipshot Contour headless model. Looks pretty badass!

No multiscale trem in the works.


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## Winger (Dec 24, 2016)

Limited time only -- odd -- why?


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 24, 2016)

Winger said:


> Limited time only -- odd -- why?



the $50 charge.. after that it will go up (to $200 if its the same as the HH models, just a guess) but the trem itself is here to stay.


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## narad (Dec 24, 2016)

Looks promising.


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## Guamskyy (Dec 24, 2016)

It's odd how the 7 and 8 Vader's have the trem option in the standard model, while the 6 string Vader and 6 string trem Vader are different models from the get go...


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## HighGain510 (Dec 24, 2016)

Man the buckeye and koa examples in their demo vid look killer! Glad to see they finally added the trem option too, nice to have the choice of a hardtail or tremolo now!


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 24, 2016)

Exciting news for sure, but too many questions. I thought headless tremolo have to have a bearing system, not edge, but I'm obviously mistaken, how does this one compare with JCustom trem they have on Holdsworth model? Or the Strandberg tremolo for that matter?


Pics:


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## cardinal (Dec 24, 2016)

Pretty cool.


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## Grand Rabbit (Dec 24, 2016)

Perfect, actually right on time for me. This is just what I was looking for...


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## cardinal (Dec 24, 2016)

Looks like a Hipshot piece? There aren't really knife edges. It's somewhat like a bearing system. The bass side is a round cylinder that contacts the post. The treble side is two rods with rounded ends that contact the post and center the trem.


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## HaloHat (Dec 25, 2016)

And keeping in the tradition of so close but not quite for me, Not available on 27" scale 7 string model. 

Happy it is available to the 25.5 six and seven string fans


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## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2016)

Yeah, I'm super interested in this. Curious if it feels like a Floyd, which I would absolutely love.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 25, 2016)

cardinal said:


> Looks like a Hipshot piece? There aren't really knife edges. It's somewhat like a bearing system. The bass side is a round cylinder that contacts the post. The treble side is two rods with rounded ends that contact the post and center the trem.



What do you mean no knife edges? If you look at the pics in my previous posts, you'll see two studs, and 2 indentations on the bridge that qualify as knife edges. I'm no expert so please elaborate if I missed the boat on this one.

Here's a pic for the JCustom trem, which I believe is a bearing system, no studs.


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## HaloHat (Dec 25, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> What do you mean no knife edges? If you look at the pics in my previous posts, you'll see two studs, and 2 indentations on the bridge that qualify as knife edges. I'm no expert so please elaborate if I missed the boat on this one.
> 
> Here's a pic for the JCustom trem, which I believe is a bearing system, no studs.



The video posted at the top of the thread has the info. Doesn't seem to be knife edge per the video.

"Same bearing edges as the Hipshot Contour"


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## Petar Bogdanov (Dec 25, 2016)

cardinal said:


> Looks like a Hipshot piece? There aren't really knife edges. It's somewhat like a bearing system. The bass side is a round cylinder that contacts the post. The treble side is two rods with rounded ends that contact the post and center the trem.



A knife edge is basically equivalent to a sleeve bearing anyway...


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## cardinal (Dec 25, 2016)

^ I assume they're similar, yes.


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## Krucifixtion (Dec 25, 2016)

Looks awesome and I would love to have one, but unfortunately when I finally decide to order a Vader it will probably be multi-scale, so no trem for me. Not a big deal, but it would be cool.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 25, 2016)

HaloHat said:


> The video posted at the top of the thread has the info. Doesn't seem to be knife edge per the video.
> 
> "Same bearing edges as the Hipshot Contour"



Thanks! It's really great that Kiesel is introducing this option and kudos to both Kiesel/Hipshot for innovation. 

The HS Contour bridge has very good reviews being smooth, increasing sustain, etc. but those are mostly coming from Strat players comparing it to std. Strat bridges (intended target audience me guessing). 

But as with any new product, I'm wondering how would the new trem fair on a 27" 8-string compared say to OFR, both in tuning stability (under some dive-bomb action), and tone/sustain/action etc. Another demo for the 8-string would be AWESOME!


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## BigViolin (Dec 25, 2016)

I'm not buying the whole "no multiscale in the works" thing. Maybe Kiesel isn't involved but there's someone at Hipshot putting pen to paper to CAD that is gonna get this figured out.

...and then my evil plan to rule the world will be complete.


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## GuitarBizarre (Dec 25, 2016)

The reason nobody but kahler does a multiscale tremolo is because it's impossible to design one that functions on existing principles without making it detune the lower strings way faster than the higher strings.

Not to mention it would be HUGE. 

Kahler's design gets around it by only moving a small piece of metal with all the string anchor points on it, and then having the strings pass over a separate bridge/saddle. An oldschool "lyre" vibrato or bigsby could also be made to work with a custom TOM made for multiscale intonation. Problem is, you then have two components: An actual vibrato unit that anchors the strings, and a bridge, which needs to occupy the ENTIRE space where your multiscale intonates. 

This makes the entire affair huge, expensive in terms of materials, complicated to produce, and also limits you to systems that have multiple points of tuning instability - the reason a floyd is so good at holding tune is because it has so few points of tuning instability.

Unfortunately a floyd achieves that in a way that prevents you from combining these two ideas. 

It's not that it's hard to get to work. It's that it's hard to get it to work in a double locking design or in a compact package - making one that's friggin huge and a pain in the ass is easy.

Amusingly, that "linear" tremolo idea that floated around many years back could be a way of doing this, but it would STILL be a huge pain in the ass because that system was, frankly, never market-ready.


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## BigViolin (Dec 25, 2016)

Hey, that's a lot of real world, engineering, realististic problems, hard to overcome, physics type stuff. 

Ok....Kahler then.

On a serious note, I gave up trems years ago, so really have no dog in this hunt, except I want another Holdsworth if this trem works out. 

...and thanks for the well written post on the engineering obstacles of multiscale trems...really.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Dec 25, 2016)

Doesn't Strandberg have a functional tremolo on a fanned design?


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 26, 2016)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Doesn't Strandberg have a functional tremolo on a fanned design?



if I recall correctly, its only available for a 0.5" fan.. so not enough for most people.

read here

https://strandbergguitars.com/faq/


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## Hollowway (Dec 26, 2016)

GuitarBizarre said:


> The reason nobody but kahler does a multiscale tremolo is because it's impossible to design one that functions on existing principles without making it detune the lower strings way faster than the higher strings.



Well, that phenomenon is not limited to their multi scales. I've got 3 kahler 8 trems and they detune the high E to D or C# at best, and the low F# goes slack almost immediately. My Floyd 8 is way better at dropping the pitches together. IMO if the kahler had a cam that was thicker at the treble side it would work much better.

And there are ways of making a muliscale trem. More than anything it's just giving a company enough confidence that they'll be able to sell them.


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## Fred the Shred (Dec 26, 2016)

Guitars in that video look killer, but it was the playing that really caught my attention - some absolutely killer licks happening there. 

As for the trem, looks simple and functional, and should it perform like the normal Hipshot ones as it appears to, it's a great feature.


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## Danukenator (Dec 26, 2016)

I'd be really interested to see how it feels. I've been tossing the idea of getting one the Kiesel headless guitars around and now this pops up.


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## technomancer (Dec 26, 2016)

This looks pretty cool! Anybody know how long the discount window is? I hate spending money this close to NAMM


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## spudmunkey (Dec 27, 2016)

Another note: the arm is beefier than the standard Contour arm, and it's supposedly bent the same dimensions/measurements as a Floyd arm.


It is also replacing the trem on the Holdsworth model (same with the fixed). Supposedly Alan loved this bridge but at the same time Jeff's hinted that they've been having some issues with J Custom (when he showed a whole rack of otherwise-finished builds just waiting on bridges).


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## russmuller (Dec 28, 2016)

So I think this is a totally cool update to the Vader line. However, I'm confused by the scale length restrictions. Why is this only available on 25.5" scales on the 6 and 7 string versions? I'm not able to make sense out of why the scale being longer at the other end would dictate what bridge can be installed. Anyone have any insight?


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## Guamskyy (Dec 28, 2016)

russmuller said:


> So I think this is a totally cool update to the Vader line. However, I'm confused by the scale length restrictions. Why is this only available on 25.5" scales on the 6 and 7 string versions? I'm not able to make sense out of why the scale being longer at the other end would dictate what bridge can be installed. Anyone have any insight?



I'm not sure if they were rumors or not, but the bridge placement was different on the different scale length Vaders, so the different bridge placement of the 27" Vader would alter the mounting position too much.

Then again this is Kiesel we are talking about, within the time line of just over 1 year, the Vader went from:

27" only...
Ok ok, 25.5" now

No multi scale...
Ok ok, multi scale now

No drop top...
Ok ok, drop top now


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## technomancer (Dec 28, 2016)

russmuller said:


> So I think this is a totally cool update to the Vader line. However, I'm confused by the scale length restrictions. Why is this only available on 25.5" scales on the 6 and 7 string versions? I'm not able to make sense out of why the scale being longer at the other end would dictate what bridge can be installed. Anyone have any insight?



At a guess they don't have the CNC programming done for both and wanted to see how the response was at the more popular 25.5" scale length.


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## russmuller (Dec 28, 2016)

Guamskyy said:


> I'm not sure if they were rumors or not, but the bridge placement was different on the different scale length Vaders, so the different bridge placement of the 27" Vader would alter the mounting position too much.
> 
> Then again this is Kiesel we are talking about, within the time line of just over 1 year, the Vader went from:
> 
> ...



Yeah, it occurred to me later that they have to be wholly different CAD models because both the 25.5" and 27" have 24 frets. If they were just extending the shorter scale, you'd wind up with 25 frets. So I think technomancer is right. But I bet it's just a matter of time. In a few months, they'll probably make it available.


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 28, 2016)

Jan 1st is when all prices go up on other models.. apparently Vaders are not included in that price increase but who knows. If you want a Carved top, now is the time cause they are going up over $100 apparently.


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## Hollowway (Dec 29, 2016)

I swung by the showroom today to test out the trem, but Flock said Jeff was in back doing a video with it, so no dice. But it's the sixxer, so I didn't hang around to wait to test it, since most six string trems are nice. It's the 8 I really want to fuss with. 

We have a fanned bass and trem Vader, so are we assuming that's it for NAMM, or does Neff have a history of NAMM surprises? I seem to remember reveals before, not at, NAMM.


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 29, 2016)

I recall most items being released right before NAMM... CT7 in Dec 2012, Legacy III was in Dec 2011?? Vader bass in November, and I believe the original Vader was in december before a NAMM. Most likely, the only things released at NAMM might be some options changes (rumors of pale moon ebony being available soon?) and maybe their two other new pickups finally.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Dec 29, 2016)

Winger said:


> Limited time only -- odd -- why?



Testing the market, seeing if the demand is there to warrant the supply to justify a production run.

These are likely from a prototype run after all Q.C. has been successfully passed.

Looks quite promising though, I would expect that this would be quite successful.

Would like to see a shot of the back, see if it's a standard trem spring route or if different to some degree, as they mentioned that they tried to remove as little material as was necessary.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Dec 29, 2016)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Testing the market, seeing if the demand is there to warrant the supply to justify a production run.
> 
> These are likely from a prototype run after all Q.C. has been successfully passed.
> 
> ...



Here you go, I think it's similar to the HS Contour, which looks like a standard block/springs kind of deal.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Dec 29, 2016)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Here you go, I think it's similar to the HS Contour, which looks like a standard block/springs kind of deal.



Nice, thanks for posting.


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