# Getting a refund for a custom build?



## Shaynos (Jun 28, 2016)

Hey guys, I've got a question here regarding a custom build I got done by Sabre Guitars in the UK. Now, firstly, it hasn't ever been my desire to heap sh*t on a brand, and it still isn't, but I'm not really sure what to do at this stage. I'll start with the story of what has happened. (Also, it may help to note that I'm in Australia and the company is in England). Please let me know if this is in the wrong section of the forum.

*July 2013 *- Paid a 50% deposit for a custom guitar. I was told it would be completed around December. [FONT=&quot]Communication was great when I was ordering, but got terrible quickly. At first it was due to "email problems". When I did hear back it was things like "it should be completed in 2 weeks" and then 3 or more months would go by without any word, or "I will send you pics tomorrow" and no reply for a few months. I only ever got a few low-res pictures which never included the headstock.
*December 2014* - A year after the supposed due date I get the guitar.
*January 2015* - I email about several issues I have with the guitar after owning it for a few weeks. No reply, I email and fb message every couple weeks. After about 3-4 months I make a post on the builder's thread on here and finally he gets in touch with me. (link[FONT=&quot] to some pictures at bottom)[/FONT]
*April 2015* - He manages to convince me that he will repair all issues in a matter of weeks. I put forward a list of demands and time requirements. He guarantees it will be no more than 2 weeks with him and he will send pictures etc before sending back.
*October 2015* - The guitar finally gets to the builder. There was 1 instance of the courier sending the guitar back and 2 instances where he had organised the guitar to be picked up (when I was actually home for the day - I teach at a high school and it's not practical to have parcels picked up there) and nobody came to pick it up. The reponse was "oh, didn't they come and get it?" despite not sending me the forms to print out like he did on the times when it was actually picked up. He again reiterates "2 weeks before it'll be winging its way back to you"
*December 16 2015* - Work is completed on the guitar and it's ready to ship back to me. I ask for pictures and they get me pictures a few days later. I say "all good, ship it back".
*December 29 2015* - Still hasn't shipped. Assistant tells me that the luthier is out of the workshop until Jan 4.
*January 9 2016* - Finally get a reply, shipping out Monday.
*January 14 2016 *- Didn't ship Monday "issues with courier"
*January 24* *2016 *- I tell him I'm done. I no longer want the guitar back. If he still wont refund he can onsell it to another buyer for me. I basically just want my money back. He agrees to this, and admits that they have let me down etc.
*June 3 2016* - I tell the guy that this is taking way too long, and I'm tired of not having my messages replied to. There was one instance with a potential buyer, but he never got back to me. So I say I just want it refunded, because this seems like it will go on indefinitely.

I've sent many messages since then to the guitar fb page and the luthier's personal page and gotten no reply. Many of the messages have been seen according to fb, but not replied to. This has been consistent throughout all of this. In between every contact there were broken promises, due dates passed without word, no reply to emails and messages, and a million different excuses (which he has used with other people that I've spoken to)

So I'm not sure what to do. I paid 19[FONT=&quot]49[/FONT]gbp ([FONT=&quot]2600[/FONT]usd / 3[FONT=&quot]51[FONT=&quot]0[/FONT][/FONT]aud) for this guitar and I feel like I'm never gonna see that money back. I don't want the guitar obviously as even if I got it and it played well, which it didn't the first time, it's forever tainted. Being in a different country makes things difficult. If it was in Australia I would take them through the Department of Fair Trading to get my money back. 

Sorry for the massive post - just wanting to know people's thoughts. For those interested as well, here are the photos of *some* of the issues the guitar had. ([FONT=&quot]btw that shim was put in by my luth[FONT=&quot]ier here in Brisbane straight after I got it when I was getting a setup done, the damage was already there[FONT=&quot])[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

https://1drv.ms/f/s!AtIBcbsO1KYSkgRXFzM-UktsD1kY
[/FONT]


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## starkill (Jun 28, 2016)

Sounds like you had really fun with this guy.


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## ICSvortex (Jun 28, 2016)

I would suggest going to that department of fair trade and describing the situation to them. You need all the emails and shipping sheets etc. They can help you even if its internationally. They can get you your money back, or at least they can tell you who to ask if they cant help you


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## narad (Jun 28, 2016)

Well I'd start by heaping sh*t onto a brand that clearly had no hesitations about heaping sh*t onto you. I get your being nice/not naming names, but builders who do this kind of stuff they should be called out, by name.


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## TheTrooper (Jun 28, 2016)

Wow, that is the worst Custom order i've ever seen. 
The fretboard isn't at level AT ALL on the last frets and the paintjob looks horrible.

Can You share what's the name of the luthier/company?
I don't really see the point in writing a rant but without mentioning names.....


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## Shaynos (Jun 28, 2016)

I figured it wouldn't be too hard to deduce which brand it is, based upon the pictures. But both you guys are absolutely right (Narad and TheTrooper), being a nice guy has gotten me nowhere and others deserve to know what a brand is like to work with. I've fixed the initial thread and put the guitar brand name in it. The guitar was a Sabre Ghost 6-String.


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## Zado (Jun 28, 2016)

Those flaws are totaly unacceptable, how can one call himself a luthier with this kind of behaviour and flaws is beyond me. No shame.


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## Mathemagician (Jun 28, 2016)

Never cover for builders/businesses like that. Others may naively give them money in the meantime if they aren't aware.


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## possumkiller (Jun 28, 2016)

Isn't this another guy from the dealer section? 


I've learned not to buy custom guitars from builders I've only ever heard of through SSO dealer threads.


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## Shaynos (Jun 28, 2016)

Mathemagician said:


> Never cover for builders/businesses like that. Others may naively give them money in the meantime if they aren't aware.



Yeah, you're right which is why I've fixed the thread to include the Sabre name in the first post. You can also see the brand logo in one of the pictures.



possumkiller said:


> Isn't this another guy from the dealer section?
> 
> 
> I've learned not to buy custom guitars from builders I've only ever heard of through SSO dealer threads.



There used to be a build thread, but it looks like it has been closed. I only found out about the brand though the thread on here - unfortunately I jumped in too soon, before I started seeing negative things being said.


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## bostjan (Jun 28, 2016)

It's not just luthiers and repair shops on this site, I assure you. There was a shop in California that I contracted once, the price was very reasonable, and the quoted turnaround time was unbelievably short. Three years after, I got my guitar back with not a single modification to it, other than tarnish on the frets and rust on the hardware from sitting so long without being touched. I was fairly lucky compared to others.

In this case, I don't know what advice I can give. Taking over a month to ship out a rush job...there are no words. 

As for getting your money back - you should simply demand your money back. If this guy does shady work, there is no way anyone is going to buy the guitar for anywhere near that kind of money. Let him know ASAP that you are demanding your money back, give him 30 days to respond, and after that, send him a nice polite letter from a law office, demanding your money back. You might think you are in a bad spot, since he has your guitar and your money, but there's nothing that can fix that now, so you'll need to be very firm from here out.


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## GXPO (Jun 28, 2016)

Such a shame, the Sabre dude seemed so genuine.. I understand how communications issues can come up and often they're symptomatic of wider issues with the production, but I always believed that the Sabre product seemed like a good one.

I hope you have some luck getting this sorted.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jun 28, 2016)

You might just be hosed. I'm telling you guys, you gotta stop sending your hard earned money to fly by night shops until they prove themselves. I wish you luck.


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## Wolfhorsky (Jun 28, 2016)

Oh, i feel sorry for Your problems, mate. You should talk to a lawyer. They helped me A LOT and many times saved my money and nerves. If You manage to get Your money back, You can spend it on another. If You want a custom, i can recommend Skervesen. I have one and another build coming to an end soon. I have pictures every few months with the progress. They manage to make it within 10 months. I hope You will get a refund. Cheers.


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## bostjan (Jun 28, 2016)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> You might just be hosed. I'm telling you guys, you gotta stop sending your hard earned money to fly by night shops until they prove themselves. I wish you luck.



Well, not that I disagree with you at all, but everybody has to start somewhere. The fact that so many of these little shops are either scamming people or failing so hard at business that they end up unintentionally scamming people means that guitar builders in general are getting a really bad name. But even Gibson and Martin and Ibanez had to start by building a few guitars.

I know that it's very difficult to run a small business, but seriously, the list of builders that have been noted on message boards (not just this one) lately for taking the money and not delivering the product is staggering. When there were one or two, I was disappointed, but, now that the list is about half a page long, and to think I briefly considered a couple of those names at one time, I'm just not able to grasp what common factor is behind all of this...

Having ordered from small luthiers before, I think I learned my lesson with my first bad experience, and have had only wonderful experiences since. I will say that I am a tiny bit out on a limb right now with something special, but the guy didn't bat an eye when I approached him using blatant caution.


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## UnderTheSign (Jun 28, 2016)

Sabre had a long, long thread on here with was half good experiences, half complaints, long wait times, botched builds and whatnot. Ones of his unofficial 'representatives' caused some trouble on here and the thread was locked. 

This was posted on their FB page. It's interesting to see how many luthiers suddenly get hospitalised, have their mom die or have their garage go up in fire when pressure starts to build. Not saying he isn't legitimately ill but it's certainly a phenomenon. 
"Hi Guys just to keep you updated. Chris has been unwell and is currently in hospital. His apprentice is not insured to be in the workshop on his own and Sabre being a small company these are the only two guys in the workshop. I help with a bit of social media now again and will keep you updated - he hopes to get back to it soon but needs some time away to get better (it won't be long). If there are any pressing issues please message the page and I will speak to you directly to keep you updated. Regards, David."

I'd suggest messaging them again through the page though and if that doesn't work, post on their wall every week. Make it public until they finally respond. Businesses hate people going public about their issues.


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## narad (Jun 28, 2016)

Tell tale signs:
-- new builder, long wait list
-- new builder, prices guitar like legit builder
-- new builder, you've seen < 10 finished guitars and they're publicly taking orders
-- no NGDs showing up, rebuttal of "not everyone who orders guitars posts here", no new finished guitar pictures going up on FB but then posts of "We had a busy year - 24 guitars delivered!" etc. 
-- few guitars that are delivered show up for sale shortly after delivery
-- stops posting on forums
-- group buy run for roughly as many or more guitars than you've actually seen photos of (run!)
-- auction "in stock" guitars while guys in queue wait (RUUUNNNN!!)

This guy had them all. Along with some really cool and novel designs, so it's sad to see him end up this way. He had advertised an internship sort of thing that I was actually interested in, but looking at that guitar, I'd be better off self taught! In hindsight, I sort of wonder if that was just a way to get some free labor for sanding and other menial labor.

But yea, it's not hard to spot this kind of behavior.


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## TuffyKohler (Jun 28, 2016)

another trip to hospital during a run. awww 

Harsh, maybe, but Sabre deserves what they get. They suck. The people, the communication, and the guitars.

No surprises here from Sabre. Total BS company. Run far far away.

I'm one of those guys that did get my guitar, and then sold it for far far less than I paid. (traded it actually) The new owner then refretted it, refinished it, and essentially did what Sabre should have been doing, quality work. I was just happy to get that thing out of my site, I didn't really care about the monetary loss at that point.

The entire experience with Sabre was full of excuses. I considered going the route the OP did and sending the guitar back to get 'fixed'. The absolute .... communication left me with no confidence I would ever get the guitar back, or fixed. Did Lorcan ever get his back that was in for repairs? 

I'm on a couple Ormsby runs, but other than that, I'm not giving money out to any small time 'luthiers' any more. I can and have built guitars of the same or better quality than Sabre, and I have no business selling what I build, as they are not up to my standards, much less a paying customer.


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## demonx (Jun 28, 2016)

Next time, buy Australian!


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## Shaynos (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> As for getting your money back - you should simply demand your money back.



The last few messages I have sent have been doing just that. Just can't get a reply atm, so the next step is to start asking publicly on his page like somebody else here suggested.



GXPO said:


> Such a shame, the Sabre dude seemed so genuine.. I understand how communications issues can come up and often they're symptomatic of wider issues with the production, but I always believed that the Sabre product seemed like a good one.



This is what I've always thought. Chris probably isn't a bad guy. Seems more to me like a guy who's in a hole and keeps digging it deeper. However, I do believe that many of his excuses are bs and blame-shifting. Particularly when I've spoken to 2 other people who have bought customs through him and they've had almost identical experiences and the same excuses etc. I mean there's only so many times "the courier stuffed up and sent it back after 6 weeks" can actually happen.



TuffyKohler said:


> I'm on a couple Ormsby runs, but other than that, I'm not giving money out to any small time 'luthiers' any more.





demonx said:


> Next time, buy Australian!



I actually did go Australian and was on the first Ormsby GTR run and got myself a HypeGTR which I love. What guitars are you grabbing Tuffy?

Also, demonx, really like your designs mate. I love your use of Aussie timbers. If I had the spare 'guitar money' I'd totally be in on one of those runs you're offering.


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## SDMFVan (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Well, not that I disagree with you at all, but everybody has to start somewhere. The fact that so many of these little shops are either scamming people or failing so hard at business that they end up unintentionally scamming people means that guitar builders in general are getting a really bad name. But *even Gibson and Martin and Ibanez had to start by building a few guitars*.



The difference being of course that all of those companies started out by building those guitars, and only selling completed ready for sale instruments to the public. Nobody should trust ANY company on here who's initial business plan is to start taking deposits on custom orders. There's a reason that every major manufacturers "custom shop" was started well after their initial retail business was up and running smoothly...


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## Andromalia (Jun 29, 2016)

SDMFVan said:


> ...



QFT. A guy like Rob Chapman managed to start a brand out of nowhere by delivering what he advertised and using a previously built rep. He didn't do it by starting custom runs.


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## Ebony (Jun 29, 2016)

Theft is theft, doesn't matter if it is an incapable "luthier" or a bank robber. 
According to the company's facebook site, he's ill. Even if it is true, his bank account isn't. And you don't need some special excuse either.
Just the fact that you got a sh*t product is more than enough reason to demand your money back. 

Offcourse, none of this matters if you're not prepared to take some sort of action. 
I haven't a clue about specific british/australian trade laws, but certainly there most be somekind of presedence?
And if that's not the case, there is always the doorstep option...


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## bostjan (Jun 29, 2016)

SDMFVan said:


> The difference being of course that all of those companies started out by building those guitars, and only selling completed ready for sale instruments to the public. Nobody should trust ANY company on here who's initial business plan is to start taking deposits on custom orders. There's a reason that every major manufacturers "custom shop" was started well after their initial retail business was up and running smoothly...



Hmm, do you know that for a fact, or are you speculating?

Did you know that Orville Gibson actually went through the same failures as all of these little luthiers today are going through.

Check this link: History of Gibson

* Not that it excuses any of the disgusting behaviour we've seen from some "luthiers."


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## narad (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Did you know that Orville Gibson actually went through the same failures as all of these little luthiers today are going through.
> 
> Check this link: History of Gibson



We're really going to refer to an incident from 1902 in this thread?


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## Leberbs (Jun 29, 2016)

narad said:


> We're really going to refer to an incident from 1902 in this thread?



Ah, the year that birthed Djent. Gimme those scattin' ragtime breakdowns.


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## bostjan (Jun 29, 2016)

narad said:


> We're really going to refer to an incident from 1902 in this thread?



My point is that every business starts small. People saying "don't trust small businesses" are missing the boat. If people's attitude toward any of their favourite brands was to not trust them, solely based upon size, then they would fail.



narad said:


> -- new builder, long wait list



This means nothing. Maybe the builder quotes an 18 month turn-around time and delivers in six, and everyone's happy, or maybe the builder quotes six, and delivers in eighteen and pisses you off. Maybe it's an ages-old builder, and you wait a lot longer than you ought to have. I don't see how this is relevant.



narad said:


> -- new builder, prices guitar like legit builder



This also means nothing, maybe you get what you pay for, or maybe not. Maybe an old builder has a high price and delivers .... to your door. It happens all of the time. Irrelevant.



narad said:


> -- new builder, you've seen < 10 finished guitars and they're publicly taking orders



Also meaningless. Every builder out there, at one point, had built less than ten guitars. If no one bought them, they would not be able to build more.



narad said:


> -- no NGDs showing up, rebuttal of "not everyone who orders guitars posts here", no new finished guitar pictures going up on FB but then posts of "We had a busy year - 24 guitars delivered!" etc.
> -- few guitars that are delivered show up for sale shortly after delivery
> -- stops posting on forums
> -- group buy run for roughly as many or more guitars than you've actually seen photos of (run!)
> -- auction "in stock" guitars while guys in queue wait (RUUUNNNN!!)



The rest is all signs of trouble. This is the crap that we see all of the time on the forum with new builders, and yes, sometimes with old builders, or builders who have managed to establish a good reputation at one point before some major incident that ruined that reputation.

No one is exempt from delivering a lemon guitar to you. A lot of folks around here get swindled by one small time luthier and immediately start trashing on all boutique guitars. It might be a way to get people fired up on your side of the bandwagon, but it's not correct. There are a lot of ....ty luthiers out there, but there are good ones who are new, old, or in between. If somebody, like Sabre, takes people's money and delivers nothing, or, perhaps worse, an unapologetically .... guitar, then they deserve to go out of business forever. On the flip side, a new, but honest luthier, who does good work, needs not to be shunned simply for being new... caution, yes, shunning, no.

My point is, that for all of the Roters and Sabres and BRJs and Strictly 7s etc. etc. etc., it rightly gives everyone a bad taste for small dealers, but you've also got KxK and Oni and Freenote and Conklin etc. etc. etc. who do great work and have great communication with customers. And you have stuff in between that might fit into certain other niches but still be functional businesses, like Wish Bass, who, frankly, delivers a pretty dank-looking "finished" product, but for a tenth of the cost of any other boutique instrument...

It looks like the group buy deals have more often than not ended in sadness for everyone. But if someone is thinking of buying a boutique guitar from a small luthier, ask around here for people who have had good experiences, talk to the luthier and see how well he communicates, and what his life's goals are toward guitar building. If something seems off, then something is probably off.

Both of us (narad and bostjan) have had bad experiences with luthiers before, and I have many friends who have been ....ed over by big companies and little alike when buying a custom. I still have a "bright" outlook that one can buy responsibly from a newer builder and have a great experience.

TL;DR - Buy responsibly.


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## Dust_to_Dust (Jun 29, 2016)

He was in hospital apparently, yet the on the builders Instagram (I think its him, he follows me) he's posting Gym and food photos?

They're currently doing an EUGear run too, which they tried to get me to get on. Their guitars that I have seen do look nice, but there's no denying that its run like a ....heap.

TL;DR: If you get the refund, why not Aristides?


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## narad (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> This means nothing. x3



You say it means nothing, but ...

Regarding setting a high price right out, it's guys like Decibel that build practically one guitar and then say, hey, I'm the real deal, I'm taking orders, price is up there with established builders. I'm not saying it's not _possible_, but it's not _likely_ that this is warranted. Every builder I can think of that I've seen go from nothing to an established reputation did not do this. Yes, someone with no experience can magically build a great guitar in their first batch, but is this typical? No.

Regarding taking custom orders right out, again, guys like Decibel. On the flip side, there's guys like Walterson here that do these fantastic home builds and all these cool designs and I basically say, "how do I get one!?" And get I responses like, maybe in the future after some more builds and infrastructure will I start doing custom orders, etc. Sensible. A reply that reflects taking orders is a serious commitment. 

Regarding waitlists, a waitlist is like the #1 bane of SSO small builders. It seems a majority of builders have a hard time properly estimating their wait times, and if a guy is just starting out, then he really has no clue. 

You're entitled to your opinion, but if you tell me just those three things and I had to bet on whether this was going to be disaster or success, I'd have made a lot of money wagering on disaster when it comes to the brands brewing on this forum. 

On the flip side, it sounds like you're saying to ignore these things because of this magical theoretical builder who shows up, builds an amazing guitar on his first go, then takes a huge waitlist of high-priced guitars. If that sounds like sensible advice to you, then go for it. Personally I've been a lot less stressed since moving on (maybe 3 years ago) from supporting these guys who start taking orders when they've produced more 3d renders than real guitars, watching these ....storms from the sidelines.


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## TheTrooper (Jun 29, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> I figured it wouldn't be too hard to deduce which brand it is, based upon the pictures. But both you guys are absolutely right (Narad and TheTrooper), being a nice guy has gotten me nowhere and others deserve to know what a brand is like to work with. I've fixed the initial thread and put the guitar brand name in it. The guitar was a Sabre Ghost 6-String.



Never cared for the brand, but damn, what the hell were they doing on that guitar?

I will never understand why almost everybody in forums are so deeply into custom guitars (which in the end, totally suck) made by almost unknown builders or builders with not a too good of a reputation.

For that prices You could easily get a Daemoness; sure the waitlist is long, but the same is the waitlist for a Ferrari.
If people keep coming in the restaurant and there aren't free tables, it means it's good


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## SDMFVan (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Hmm, do you know that for a fact, or are you speculating?
> 
> Did you know that Orville Gibson actually went through the same failures as all of these little luthiers today are going through.
> 
> ...



Hmm...let's take a look...



link said:


> October 10, 1902 The Gibson Mandolin-Guitar Mfg. Co., Ltd. is formed. Orville's mandolins are far superior to the bowlbacks or &#8220;taterbugs&#8221; of his day, and *he is unable to meet the rising demand*. Five Kalamazoo businessmen buy rights to his name and patent for $2500 and hire him as a consultant. Orville is not one of the principals of the Gibson company, but he does own some stock. Within six months, however, he is at odds with the board of managers, and he sells his stock to his local saloon keeper. Orville continues to receive a royalty and later a pension until his death in 1918.



So Orville Gibson was the original fly by night luthier and Gibson guitars wouldn't exist as we know it today if control of the company hadn't been taken away from him.

I stand by my statement that companies like Gibson, Fender and PRS etc., as we know them today, became successful by building a production line of instruments and delivering them to customers.


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## bostjan (Jun 29, 2016)

narad said:


> You say it means nothing, but ...
> 
> Regarding setting a high price right out, it's guys like Decibel that build practically one guitar and then say, hey, I'm the real deal, I'm taking orders, price is up there with established builders. I'm not saying it's not _possible_, but it's not _likely_ that this is warranted. Every builder I can think of that I've seen go from nothing to an established reputation did not do this. Yes, someone with no experience can magically build a great guitar in their first batch, but is this typical? No.
> 
> ...



You are taking my objection to your hyperbole, for the sake of it being hyperbole, and making it out to be the opposite hyperbole instead. I've dealt with small builders with long wait times and comparable prices and starting off the bat with custom orders and had the most wonderful experience. But I'm not saying that my anecdote in any way trumps your anecdote to the opposite side of the equation. I'm merely saying that you don't always have good or always have bad. I never once said it was safe to buy from a small builder irresponsibly.



TheTrooper said:


> I will never understand why almost everybody in forums are so deeply into custom guitars (which in the end, totally suck) made by almost unknown builders or builders with not a too good of a reputation.
> 
> For that prices You could easily get a Daemoness; sure the waitlist is long, but the same is the waitlist for a Ferrari.
> If people keep coming in the restaurant and there aren't free tables, it means it's good



Daemoness is a small custom builder.

On the contrary to your first statement, I see way more opposition from people, when someone wants to order a custom guitar, saying "just get an Ibanez." I don't understand why everyone has to either be anti-production or anti-custom. Why can't people just buy what they want to buy, get the specs they want, if they want to pay for them, and then have the builder *not* rip them off.



SDMFVan said:


> Hmm...let's take a look...
> 
> So Orville Gibson was the original fly by night luthier and Gibson guitars wouldn't exist as we know it today if control of the company hadn't been taken away from him.
> 
> I stand by my statement that companies like Gibson, Fender and PRS etc., as we know them today, became successful by building a production line of instruments and delivering them to customers.



Orville wasn't mass producing guitars. I never said he was "the original fly by night luthier," to the contrary, there have always been "fly by night luthiers." You never mentioned PRS nor Fender until now.

I said "even Gibson and Martin and Ibanez had to start by building a few guitars," with which you disagreed. But they did.

---------------

This is nuts. Every time somebody gets ripped off by some guy taking advantage of the forum, it turns into a huge mess about "all small luthiers are ....," or "let's dogpile on the guy who bought a guitar from a small luthier for being naive." I made the mistake of hoping that we could simply cool it on the abrupt conclusions and overgeneralizations.

I'm out of this thread. If anyone wants to continue the discussion in PM, I'm totally down for it. I don't even mind if you PM me to tell me I'm a dummy and I'm wrong, just please let's keep this thread free from it from here out.

The last thing I'll say is best of luck to the OP and I'm so sorry your thread turned into such a mess.


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## Prophetable (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan, you're just so wrong in this thread that it is making my head hurt.

-New builder long wait list : Demonstrates inexperience and probably bad business sense
-New builder prices like old pro : Demonstrates a level of vanity that means they are probably more likely to argue that your guitar is right than fix their mistakes
-New builder that has made less than 10 guitars and is taking orders : You don't learn how to do your job on your customer's dime

I like how you came in, started arguments, and then tried to leave your last post acting like you're the hero for cleaning up the thread that you polluted in the first place. 


OP: Sorry you got hosed by Sabre. Just keep on him and good luck.


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## narad (Jun 29, 2016)

Prophetable said:


> -New builder long wait list : Demonstrates inexperience and probably bad business sense
> -New builder prices like old pro : Demonstrates a level of vanity that means they are probably more likely to argue that your guitar is right than fix their mistakes
> -New builder that has made less than 10 guitars and is taking orders : You don't learn how to do your job on your customer's dime



Yea, I mean, this is a much more succinct description of how I feel. 

You do see counterexamples to all of this stuff. For instance, Julius Jahn is doing a group buy run on here that seems to have produced instruments. And I took one look at it and said, nope, too many warning signs. But I'd rather stay safe and outlay some rough guidelines on how to avoid BRJ/ViK/Sabre situations (as that rule would), than to get a Jahn maybe a year earlier than other people. 

But really, what's the point of ordering a guitar from a brand new builder? Another important point, you can support the guy with < 10 builds all you want, but I don't know *a single* luthier who will say, "Yea, what I'm building today is exactly as good as what I was building back then." Everyone's getting better. You can order early and maybe you wind up with a guitar without any serious flaws, but you're more likely to get a better instrument sitting back and waiting a year or two (and you avoid most of that early risk altogether, what a bonus!). So I find it very hard to advocate for this.


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## electriceye (Jun 29, 2016)

I'm stunned by those pictures. The nut alone is atrociously bad. But....wow. I wouldn't even have asked for them to fix it the first time. I would have been FUMING if I got a custom axe and it looked like a Hondo.


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## Leberbs (Jun 29, 2016)

Maybe I never seen a nut in a detailed shot like that, but does it look like the slot widths are extremely wide?


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## Prophetable (Jun 29, 2016)

Yeah, they're crazy. Nothing but wiggle. That would drive me insane.


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## TuffyKohler (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Also meaningless. Every builder out there, at one point, had built less than ten guitars. If no one bought them, they would not be able to build more.
> 
> TL;DR - Buy responsibly.



Nope. Pondman? don't think he's selling, and he can't be stopped. And not that I'm anywhere near that level, I just finished #9, with #10 almost done, #11 not far behind, and many more coming. I haven't sold anything. Don't really intend to.



Shaynos said:


> I actually did go Australian and was on the first Ormsby GTR run and got myself a HypeGTR which I love. What guitars are you grabbing Tuffy?



Also on Run 1, Azure HypeGTR.
Run 2 due to arrive on Friday, High Alert TX
Also grabbed one of the extra Eaton TX, hasn't shipped yet
Run 4 Goliath


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## Shaynos (Jun 29, 2016)

bostjan said:


> The last thing I'll say is best of luck to the OP and I'm so sorry your thread turned into such a mess.



Thanks, although I don't think the thread has turned into too much of a mess. Differing opinions maybe, but it's all relevant.

I agree with the consensus that I obviously should've done my homework a bit better in the first place, or more accurately waited a lot longer. But like many that have come before me I was too keen, it was my first custom, and now here we are.

I've still been messaging without reply. The messages to the Sabre page have still been seen without reply, the personal ones to Chris aren't even 'seen' according to fb (although I highly doubt they aren't actually seen). I put a post on the wall of the sabre page. I guess in a few days I might have to outline the specific problems with included pictures.

I've looked up the UK office of fair trading, and most of it only applies to UK residents, but I'll keep digging around and see if maybe I contact somebody who can look at the specifics of my case.


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## UnderTheSign (Jun 30, 2016)

Doesn't look like a hospital dinner to me, no. 
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHK7_x3gl7K/

Well, the hospital thing was a couple of weeks ago. But if you can post pictures of steak, you can answer important customer emails.


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## Silence2-38554 (Jun 30, 2016)

Dude, this company is impressively bad at communication. When they do communicate, they are very polite, apologetic, informative, etc. But holy hell... I'm the one that traded for Tuffy's Sabre. That thing was a HUGE project to get playing right. I do love a lot of it's design elements, so I'll hang onto it now that I've put the work in, but god damn. Between first communicating with Sabre about getting a wenge electronics cavity cover, some finishing oil for the body and some scrap wood for making sawdust / filling holes, etc. and actually receiving a package from them, I believe it took about 3 months. And when it did show up, I wound up with an ash cover rather than wenge. Upon notifying them of their mistake, radio silence.... I even sent them pictures of the finished guitar......nothing.

That was an incredibly stressful 3 months for me to wait, and they only had about $30 of mine. I can only imagine if I'd given them over $2k. 

It's a shame because I really love some of the more recent builds and I love the concept of the "Stock Series", which is what mine is (Syren 7). The business itself is just not being executed very well in several aspects. When multiple people are either missing their guitars or their money for looooong stretches of time, there's no sense in trying to give the builder / company the benefit of the doubt. 

I predict this situation getting uglier over the next couple months, then there will be a FaceBook post reading something along the lines of "Wow, everyone really just needs to calm down! The guitars are shipping soon & we've contacted the necessary peopbla bla bla bla bla". Seen this all before with this company. Maybe they exist in a different realm of reality where reasonable timeframes and communication aren't important?


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## Petar Bogdanov (Jun 30, 2016)

bostjan said:


> On the contrary to your first statement, I see way more opposition from people, when someone wants to order a custom guitar, saying "just get an Ibanez." I don't understand why everyone has to either be anti-production or anti-custom. Why can't people just buy what they want to buy, get the specs they want, if they want to pay for them, and then have the builder *not* rip them off.



Because you are expecting perfection from someone without any particular qualifications, making things out of wood, for basically average wage (do the math!), each one being a one-off, so he's making each guitar for the first time. This _can not_ be a safe and stable system.


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## Shaynos (Jun 30, 2016)

Silence2-38554 said:


> I predict this situation getting uglier over the next couple months, then there will be a FaceBook post reading something along the lines of "Wow, everyone really just needs to calm down! The guitars are shipping soon & we've contacted the necessary peopbla bla bla bla bla". Seen this all before with this company. Maybe they exist in a different realm of reality where reasonable timeframes and communication aren't important?



I honestly have the feeling that the company will go under in the near future. I'd wager with the amount of guitars sold (not that many as far as I can tell) and the obvious overheads of the last few years that he'd be doing it tough financially. Which would really screw me over. I just want my money back before that happens.


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## Deegatron (Jun 30, 2016)

I would wager that he literally doesn't have the money to refund your build. he's invested every penny into overhead and the ship is sinking hard.... honestly... I would get my guitar back as is... and sell it at a loss... that's the absolute best case scenario for you right now. sorry bud.


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## Shaynos (Jun 30, 2016)

Deegatron said:


> I would wager that he literally doesn't have the money to refund your build. he's invested every penny into overhead and the ship is sinking hard.... honestly... I would get my guitar back as is... and sell it at a loss... that's the absolute best case scenario for you right now. sorry bud.



That thought had crossed my mind. But I would feel too bad selling the guitar and all its problems on to somebody else. I'll keep pushing for a refund and remain (naively) hopeful.

4 times this week I've messaged the Sabre page. All 4 times the message has been seen and not replied to.


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## kavinsky (Jun 30, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> 4 times this week I've messaged the Sabre page. All 4 times the message has been seen and not replied to.



put the link to this thread in there aswell.
usually guys like these suddenly wake up when things go public.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 30, 2016)

TuffyKohler said:


> Did Lorcan ever get his back that was in for repairs?



Not yet, hoping to collect next month when I'm in London.


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## Shaynos (Jul 1, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Not yet, hoping to collect next month when I'm in London.



Damnnn, I think you ordered yours before I even ordered mine. How long now has it been in for repair?


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## downburst82 (Jul 1, 2016)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Not yet, hoping to collect next month when I'm in London.



Collect as in you've made arrangements with him and your guitar will be done and ready for you to pick up...or "Collect" as in your going to see them and demand your guitar in whatever state its in?

(not trying to "stir the pot" just curious)


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## Jaek-Chi (Jul 10, 2016)

demonx said:


> Next time, buy Australian!



OP - More importantly, from this guy! haha


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 11, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> Damnnn, I think you ordered yours before I even ordered mine. How long now has it been in for repair?



About a year I think.



downburst82 said:


> Collect as in you've made arrangements with him and your guitar will be done and ready for you to pick up...or "Collect" as in your going to see them and demand your guitar in whatever state its in?



Its was ready ages ago so I've made arrangements now to pick it up when I'm in London at Carillion HQ.


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## TheTrooper (Jul 11, 2016)

bostjan said:


> Daemoness is a small custom builder.
> 
> On the contrary to your first statement, I see way more opposition from people, when someone wants to order a custom guitar, saying "just get an Ibanez." I don't understand why everyone has to either be anti-production or anti-custom. Why can't people just buy what they want to buy, get the specs they want, if they want to pay for them, and then have the builder *not* rip them off.




Not against Custom instruments, but against "luthiers" that only run a rip-off business/scam.

Real luthiers started from scratch and built a reputation (Daemoness, Feline, Blackmachine) by delivering real products.


I don't get why somebody would spend 2000 on a Custom guitar made by Mr.nobody, when You can wait 3 more months and afford a Custom guitar made by an expert.


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## TheTrooper (Jul 11, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> That thought had crossed my mind. But I would feel too bad selling the guitar and all its problems on to somebody else. I'll keep pushing for a refund and remain (naively) hopeful.
> 
> 4 times this week I've messaged the Sabre page. All 4 times the message has been seen and not replied to.




Selling the guitar without specifying all the flaws is *WRONG.

*Your situation is not good, I understand that, BUT You have a powerful tool on Your side: social media.

To paraphrase Lester in GTA V lol
It's 2016......in the age of the Internet and social media, having a bad reputation on the web it's far worse than dying, because ages ago, when You died, it stopped there; now even after You're dead, the bad reputation stays on the internet for ages to come.

That's what You should do: tell to everybody.

Thery're doing a run on EUGG? Good. 
Write on their page and tell all the story, so anybody can read it (and the company will read it too)


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## narad (Jul 11, 2016)

TheTrooper said:


> Not against Custom instruments, but against "luthiers" that only run a rip-off business/scam.
> 
> Real luthiers started from scratch and built a reputation (Daemoness, Feline, Blackmachine) by delivering real products.



That's a weird set of luthiers to prove this point...

Anyway, this notion that social media is super powerful is way too powerful. I've been there - social media in terms of Facebook is practically useless.


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## TheTrooper (Jul 12, 2016)

narad said:


> That's a weird set of luthiers to prove this point...
> 
> Anyway, this notion that social media is super powerful is way too powerful. I've been there - social media in terms of Facebook is practically useless.




(The luthiers mentioned are form UK)


Social media IS super powerful, if You know how to take advantage with it.

I checked a little and Sabre is doing a run with EUGG because at least one of the guys of the shop are admins of EUGG (which, to me, sounds like a huge scam BTW).
On Sabre's page there are a few complaints of people that are still waiting for the guitar to be delivered/finished/built/started after ONE YEAR with no updates and after a pretty consistent deposit.

Now, I'm not sure what's going on with them, but why are You guys waiting for over an year with no updates?
I could understand a month after they promised some updates, but a full year?
The situation is extremely suspicious.........They have a s*it ton of orders and (what I understood from their words) only 2 people are working there, not even full time? 
What? 
You guys belive that story?
Even if the sickness story is true (might be/might not be) beats me why they have no plan B in case something like that happens..... and still, only 2 people work in the shop, and they are doing a run with 10-20 customers? 



Hey, if it ends up being a legitimate delay, awesome but I'll advise You to stop waiting and do something about it.

Tying up to the social media thing: try to ask on the GP Music Discussion Page and see If anybody else had a similat situation; still, they're going to .... their pants when they see a rant/complaint on such a big page.


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## ikarus (Jul 17, 2016)

TheTrooper said:


> Thery're doing a run on EUGG? Good.
> Write on their page and tell all the story, so anybody can read it (and the company will read it too)



Will not work, post will get deleted. mod/admin is affilated with Sabre...


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## TheTrooper (Jul 17, 2016)

ikarus said:


> Will not work, post will get deleted. mod/admin is affilated with Sabre...



Yeah, I know that, but I doubt they'll be so stupid to delete the post (thus confirming EVERYTHING)

Either way, he's gonna get some kind of reaction from Sabre or EUGG (and the members).

Another great community is Wired Guitarist.
Write on their Music Discussion page and see if they can help you/guide the right way


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## Jonathan20022 (Jul 18, 2016)

Kind of sucks you sent it back, you don't have much leeway in that case and trusting them to refund your money once they resell it is also a bad move trusting a brand like this. Hope it works out for you in some way dude.


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## Dust_to_Dust (Jul 20, 2016)

So, just had a notification on Facebook that a Christian Howes, who is associated with Sabre Guitars, is trying to sell some Sabre's. One that has been for sale for ages..












That Ebony topped one does look gorgeous, but .... that noise out of principle.


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## P-Ride (Jul 21, 2016)

Wow. Sabre are based around 30 minutes drive from me (in Cambridge, UK) and were recommended by a friend, who knows someone there.

The guitars on their Facebook page look great; several guitarists in my area follow their page and the fact they're local put them top of my list for a custom build.

The description of their 'counterbolt neck' sounded interesting and well thought-out.

Looks like I can scrap that idea.. I'll keep buying major brand name guitars and upgrading them with parts myself, or maybe a Warmoth baritone neck.


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## P-Ride (Jul 21, 2016)

Their website seems to be down now..


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## big_aug (Jul 21, 2016)

TheTrooper said:


> Yeah, I know that, but I doubt they'll be so stupid to delete the post (thus confirming EVERYTHING)
> 
> Either way, he's gonna get some kind of reaction from Sabre or EUGG (and the members).
> 
> ...



Wired Guitarist is as bad as anyone else. They ban or discredit people from their groups for made up ..... Say anything negative about them or some brand their supporting and they'll ban. Question things they say and you'll have members attacking you. I read your post and had to comment. I'd never deal with them or anyone associated with them. It appears mods there have some financial stake (at least some). You never know who has money involved in their little dealership. I'd stay far away. 


Sorry this happened to the OP. I almost placed an order with Sabre at one point. Thank goodness it didn't happen. I went with another small builder. A completely new one actually. Took a leap of faith there, but build time was quoted at 16 weeks which is within PayPal buyer's protection for product not received. Still a risk as it doesn't cover product not as described on custom stuff. The guitar just shipped out to me. The build experience and communication was unbelievably amazing. Let's see if the guitar turns out the same.


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## Behindthesun (Jul 22, 2016)

Jaek-Chi said:


> OP - More importantly, from this guy! haha



Ugh, so you're the guy who owns that Searls? I've been drooling at that thing for the last couple of weeks, probably my favorite of his builds this far.

You lucky devil.


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## FIXXXER (Jul 24, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> Hey guys, I've got a question here regarding a custom build I got done by Sabre Guitars in the UK. Now, firstly, it hasn't ever been my desire to heap sh*t on a brand, and it still isn't, but I'm not really sure what to do at this stage. I'll start with the story of what has happened. (Also, it may help to note that I'm in Australia and the company is in England). Please let me know if this is in the wrong section of the forum.
> 
> *July 2013 *- Paid a 50% deposit for a custom guitar. I was told it would be completed around December. [FONT=&quot]Communication was great when I was ordering, but got terrible quickly. At first it was due to "email problems". When I did hear back it was things like "it should be completed in 2 weeks" and then 3 or more months would go by without any word, or "I will send you pics tomorrow" and no reply for a few months. I only ever got a few low-res pictures which never included the headstock.
> *December 2014* - A year after the supposed due date I get the guitar.
> ...



man, what can i say, this is incredibly sadening!
i had a custom order at Sabre too, which, at the end turned out well, however i can absolutely understand your point, the experience you are making with Sabre Guitars is simply inacceptable!

i do not know what's going on there but it seems like everybody who ordered from Sabre is experiencing the exact same things as i did. 
it seems like Chris is having some serious health and personal problems and i hope that he will manage to sort these things out. 
he always seemed like a nice guy to me, though
i always felt that many things he said were simply "poor excuses", 
can't tell for sure, can't look inside someones head... 

that guitar on the pics is a mess, i can't see any way to fix that,
i'd go for a full refund, if needed i'd contact a lawyer!

if you want to read about my experience with Sabre...

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showthread.php?p=4620065#post4620065


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## Shaynos (Jul 25, 2016)

So the latest update:

I finally spoke to Chris. It took a whole heap of messages, and some public conversations on the Sabre Guitars wall on facebook.

He didn't want to refund me, and said he would still try and sell it or he would send it back. Once again, not good enough, but after a conversation where I was quite adamant about the fact that I deserved a refund, he said "I'll talk to my bookkeeper and get it organised."

So that was three weeks ago. Once again, messages are seen but not replied to. I'm not sure how it can take three weeks to "talk to his bookkeeper". Dave (the EUGG guy who does work for Sabre) has replied a couple times on fb with stuff like "still trying to sort it out".

As much as we'd all love to give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to health and personal issues (not that it really matters in business) this sort of awful correspondence is nothing new to anybody who has ordered a guitar through them and I've experienced 3 years of it. 

So I guess I'll just keep pestering until I get my money...


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## pondman (Jul 26, 2016)

Cant you see that this guy is just taking the piss ! He has no intention of giving you anything I'm afraid.


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## TheTrooper (Jul 26, 2016)

Dave wrote about this very post in the EUGG page, saying.......nothing. 

He doesn't address the issue as You can see (which makes no sense at all) and just assure everybody everything is going smooth.

The Sabre guy doesn't want to refund You, but to them this is normal and everything is going smooth.

Right.


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## FIXXXER (Jul 27, 2016)

i also can not understand this, "send it back and we'll fix the issues" mentality.
seriously, we are talking custom builds that are 2-3000K, there should be nothing to fix, these instruments are supposed to be god damn perfect and nothing else.


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## Shaynos (Jul 27, 2016)

Seems strange to refer to a thread but not actually address any of the issues in it or say anything about it. But instead, remind people that the run is going fine. 

Yet, they still can't reply to my messages?? Would've taken less time than that post. Or to take it a step further, Sabre could've refunded my guitar in the time it takes to make a coffee.


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## feraledge (Jul 27, 2016)

I take it as a good sign that all the shady builders think SSO is just a place for slinging feces at them instead of addressing any of the actual issues. Total sham. It's definitely insulting for them to post that instead of refunding your guitar. Unless they get the money to pay you back through unthinking likes on Facebook without people acknowledging the facts of the situation. 
Hope you get this resolved. Hope potential Sabre customers read the threads.


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## TheTrooper (Jul 28, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> Seems strange to refer to a thread but not actually address any of the issues in it or say anything about it. But instead, remind people that the run is going fine.
> 
> Yet, they still can't reply to my messages?? Would've taken less time than that post. Or to take it a step further, Sabre could've refunded my guitar in the time it takes to make a coffee.




Keep on asking mate, You waited long enough.

If You really want to settle for the guitar (which might be good and fixed now) go for it, but contrariwise, post on EUGG e tell the exact story (with dates and all that) so everybody can read it.


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## P-Ride (Jul 28, 2016)

I just don't understand.. if builders were conservative in their estimates and happy to say, 'Sorry, it's an 18 month waiting list', or 'Sorry, I can't take orders', then they would generate the impression of being desirable.

I imagine the temptation to take deposits is probably the challenge.


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## jacksonguitar1111 (Aug 2, 2016)

I already commented on your post. It's ....ty that some dealers/builders are like that. I had a issue with Strictly 7 a few years ago, where the trussrod almost popped through the back of the neck  In defense of the builder he offered me a replacement neck and I only have to ship it to him. -> Problem: I am located in Austria, which makes it really hard. I ended up in selling it with the issue for a lot less (it was a 8 string custom build). 

Anyway such lines like: "we will fix it soon", "shipping problems", "parcel came back", "problems with the bank account" ..... the list is endless.. 

Such lines are everywhere in business when the seller/dealer is treating the customer like ..... Such companies are mostly going down, or at least lose a lot of customers, which is in my opinion totally fair. 

The problem is that most customers are quiet with their problem which is a bad thing in my opinion. Then a couple of months go by and another customer is complaining a similar issue. And I am like: "Why the hell are people buying from these builders?" 



TheTrooper said:


> Dave wrote about this very post in the EUGG page, saying.......nothing.
> 
> He doesn't address the issue as You can see (which makes no sense at all) and just assure everybody everything is going smooth.
> 
> ...


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## Shaynos (Aug 3, 2016)

Apparently Chris is back in the workshop. I still haven't heard back from him. 

Maybe he's hoping I'll forget about this whole guitar thing if he can wait it out long enough? If I was a betting man, I'd be betting the company is on the brink of going under - you'd be crazy to put a deposit on anything.


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## xvultures (Aug 5, 2016)

FIXXXER said:


> i also can not understand this, "send it back and we'll fix the issues" mentality.
> seriously, we are talking custom builds that are 2-3000K, there should be nothing to fix, these instruments are supposed to be god damn perfect and nothing else.



This x10000. I expect nasty nuts, messy neck pockets or a lackluster finish on <$500 all day long. But on a guitar you're investing big money on like that there is NO EXCUSE for the kind of flaws that are on that guitar.

- Messed up the neck pocket? Tough crap, start a new body and add the ....ed up on to a B-Stock pile/sale for later on.
- Messed up the route for the nut? Tough crap, strip the board off and try again or add the neck to a B-stock pile/sale.
That's the cost of business, you don't give crap products for a premium price.





Shaynos said:


> Apparently Chris is back in the workshop. I still haven't heard back from him.
> 
> Maybe he's hoping I'll forget about this whole guitar thing if he can wait it out long enough? If I was a betting man, I'd be betting the company is on the brink of going under - you'd be crazy to put a deposit on anything.



Hate to say it, but the reason he won't refund you is because your money is spent and long gone. Don't let up on him, message him every day/week. Share the pictures of the work on his facebook wall. There is no reason for a $3k guitar to come out like that.


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## TheTrooper (Aug 8, 2016)

Yeah man, don't wait, it's been a really long time.
I couldn't wait that much knowing that somebody has my money and delivered a wrecked product.

Keep up with the messages, he has to answer.


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## crimpshrine (Aug 11, 2016)

,


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## Shaynos (Aug 15, 2016)

Still haven't heard back. I posted on the Sabre Guitars wall again the other day as the last post is now buried several posts in and it looks like the post got deleted. 

Here's a screenshot of our "conversation" since Chris agreed to a refund. It's indicative of nearly every conversation I've had over 3 years.


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## crimpshrine (Aug 18, 2016)

Wow. Great customer service Sabre. I am unfortunate enough to have placed an order  really not happy at the service I have recieved and after reading everyone else's experience I don't even want the guitar anymore. First time I have been caught out by charletons and it will be the last.


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## TheTrooper (Aug 25, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> Still haven't heard back. I posted on the Sabre Guitars wall again the other day as the last post is now buried several posts in and it looks like the post got deleted.
> 
> Here's a screenshot of our "conversation" since Chris agreed to a refund. It's indicative of nearly every conversation I've had over 3 years.




They removed your post?

This company is a real Class Act, definetly going to order a custom guitar from them (ATTENTION: SARCASM) 

I understand screwing up, but there's no shame in saying "I'm sorry, we screwed up....can we solve this problem?" instead of trying to cover up all this mess.

Your post hit hard BTW, some people was going to order from them but they saw Your post and backed off. That's good.

Are they still not answering now?


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## oath5 (Aug 26, 2016)

This is why I wont EVER deal with custom lutihers again. Have had my share of bad luck with both Strictly7 and Skervesen. Good luck man!


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## ArtDecade (Aug 26, 2016)

oath5 said:


> This is why I wont EVER deal with custom lutihers again. Have had my share of bad luck with both Strictly7 and Skervesen. Good luck man!



Too many horror stories.


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## Shaynos (Aug 29, 2016)

TheTrooper said:


> They removed your post?
> 
> This company is a real Class Act, definetly going to order a custom guitar from them (ATTENTION: SARCASM)
> 
> ...



Still no answer. I keep messaging each week. 
Surely he has to realise how awful this makes his business look. I agree with you about screw ups. Just apologise and do your best to make things right.

I'll post on the wall now again and we'll see if it stays there.


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## TheTrooper (Aug 30, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> Still no answer. I keep messaging each week.
> Surely he has to realise how awful this makes his business look. I agree with you about screw ups. Just apologise and do your best to make things right.
> 
> I'll post on the wall now again and we'll see if it stays there.



Somebody replied to You, I guess they want to resolve the situation.
I guess they sorted their things out?


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## Shaynos (Sep 5, 2016)

TheTrooper said:


> Somebody replied to You, I guess they want to resolve the situation.
> I guess they sorted their things out?



You would think so, but this is all that has eventuated. Basically, Dave has responded a few times but I need Christian to make the effort to contact me back as he's the one who who has control over things such as money and 'bookkeeping'.


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## Mraz (Sep 6, 2016)

Man this sucks :/ 
This is why people are of ten afraid to order custom guitars... 
I will order a Kiesel soon and I'm a little afraid since I'm from EU and if something is not right, it can get expensive :S


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## crimpshrine (Sep 8, 2016)

I have given up on ever getting my guitar from them. Been waiting for months for a picture. Guitar was due in Jan, then March, then June. Not seen a single pic of anything!

Going to pass my stuff over to a lawyer if they don't sort me a refund soon. I'm sick of the whole thing.


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## TheTrooper (Sep 20, 2016)

crimpshrine said:


> I have given up on ever getting my guitar from them. Been waiting for months for a picture. Guitar was due in Jan, then March, then June. Not seen a single pic of anything!
> 
> Going to pass my stuff over to a lawyer if they don't sort me a refund soon. I'm sick of the whole thing.




I didn't understand You ordered from them too, that sucks.

If they still have to start Your build You can ask for a refund I think.


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## littleredguitars2 (Sep 20, 2016)

oath5 said:


> This is why I wont EVER deal with custom lutihers again. Have had my share of bad luck with both Strictly7 and Skervesen. Good luck man!



what happened with skervesen?


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## Shaynos (Sep 21, 2016)

Still no word to anybody else? 

There's been 2 other people commenting on the fb post I made who are now saying they want a refund as well. It seems like nobody can get a hold of Chris/Sabre guitars. Those people predicting a disappearing act might've been right I think.


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## TheTrooper (Sep 22, 2016)

Saw the other posts, but what is crazy here is that EUGG did something like 4 other runs (between cabs and other custom guitars) and everything has been delivered (or almost everything); all these company started taking orders AFTER Sabre did (which started at the beginning of the year) but they delivered before them.

Can't you call the guy?
Do You have his number?
That's the only shot You have if he's not answering on FB.


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## TheTrooper (Sep 24, 2016)

Shaynos said:


> Still no word to anybody else?
> 
> There's been 2 other people commenting on the fb post I made who are now saying they want a refund as well. It seems like nobody can get a hold of Chris/Sabre guitars. Those people predicting a disappearing act might've been right I think.




Hey dude, You should get a look at EUGG Cafè (I couldn't tag You).
Somebody made a post over there (same stuff as yours) and You can shed a light over Your story; You are definetly not the only one.


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## Dust_to_Dust (Sep 25, 2016)

Here's the link to the EUGG post if anyone wants a read

https://www.facebook.com/groups/EUGGcafe/permalink/1175193895860355/?comment_id=1176797479033330


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## Dooky (Sep 25, 2016)

FIXXXER said:


> i also can not understand this, "send it back and we'll fix the issues" mentality.
> seriously, we are talking custom builds that are 2-3000K, there should be nothing to fix, these instruments are supposed to be god damn perfect and nothing else.



Agreed
Sometimes I feel like I'm in the minority when I say I would expect even a guitar that cost $2000AUD (or $1500USD) to be basically perfect. But for $3500aud it'd want to be absolutely flawless. 
The only guitar I've bought over $3000aud was my Jackson SL1 - great guitar, but it's not twice as good as my MIJ Ibanez' or Charvel - it just really isn't.


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## crimpshrine (Sep 26, 2016)

Yea. I have still heard nothing. Paid about £1200-1300 deposit and supported the charity raffle to the tune of £150.


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## DeathlyCream (Oct 17, 2016)

My 2 cents now...

July 2014, I placed an order with Sabre Guitars for a £2575 guitar. At first everything was going right even if I wish he could reply faster to my messages.
May 2015, the building process starts. Few months later, Phil Mc Allister from spectrum guitars saddly died. So Christian Howes didn't know how to do to be able to do the finish on my guitar body... I never knews he had to send my guitar body to Spain to do so.
Well.. I waited then until January 2016 he sent me pics of a guitar body with a stained top but nothing more, a pic of a neck with frets being cut and that it.
Wrong headstock shape and frets being cut on a neck that should have got inlays a long time ago... (I had messages like" Inlays work starts next week!")

So because of the wrong headstock he had to make a new neck and said it wouldn't delay anything. Few months later he said that I could have get my guitar very fast if he had not to build a new neck at no extra charge (you can tell I wouldn't pay anything just because he doesn't understand what i wanted from the start..)

I didn't have any updates from him then he said falling July 2016 that he had my guitar body back from the lacquerer. Never had a pic to see the result.

Falling August, I sent him an official letter and he came to talk on Messenger saying he need 4-5 weeks to finish the guitar maybe less which means it was done on the 6th september.
Today I'm still waiting but now i don't want that guitar anymore, I just want my money back..

Oh and before I forget, 3 weeks ago he was telling me almost everyday that he was going to send me pics of my guitar (done?) then he shares someone else's guitar pics saying that me and some others would be next. We are all waiting for him to take pictures but he wants to send the guitars without taking any pics....

I say to anyone who wants a custom order: NEVER GO WITH SABRE


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## narad (Oct 17, 2016)

Sorry to hear it, man. For a while Sabre looked like a class act and can admit that I was on the verge of putting in an order too, before a couple guys reported some excuses and so-so quality, etc.


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## Erockomania (Oct 19, 2016)

narad said:


> Sorry to hear it, man. For a while Sabre looked like a class act and can admit that I was on the verge of putting in an order too, before a couple guys reported some excuses and so-so quality, etc.



Not just so-so quality on my build... unplayable, beginner quality. Worth maybe $600 but only because of the woods. Korean stuff is better built.


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## narad (Oct 19, 2016)

Erockomania said:


> Not just so-so quality on my build... unplayable, beginner quality. Worth maybe $600 but only because of the woods. Korean stuff is better built.



Yea, I first heard about some minor complaints, and that's when I put off the order. I've since heard so many completely outrageous complaints that I suspect I might wind up with a more playable instrument by throwing a bunch of guitar parts into a bag of glue and then shaking it. At least it'll be delivered on time.


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## laxu (Oct 20, 2016)

Erockomania said:


> Not just so-so quality on my build... unplayable, beginner quality. Worth maybe but only because of the woods. Korean stuff is better built.



Too bad. I was actually considering picking up one of their basses as it looks pretty great in pics.

EDIT: Now that I look at it, the pickups on the bass they are selling on EUGG marketplace (same as the one in their in-stock section on the website) seem like they are installed off center a bit. I thought it might've been just the angle but reading this thread through they probably are actually not in the correct position.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2016)

lol eventually there wont be any guitar builders left to use.

also, the reason why I would never go this route, is the idea of paying a company like £2500+ with nothing to show for it, then have to wait (and trust them) for months and months and months. Perhaps if it worked the other way around, i.e they build the guitars first then INVOICE you for the amount (so they dont just get your money first but have to actually work for it) then perhaps these horror stories wouldnt exist.

Its easier to run away and bury your head in the sand if you already have peoples cash.

no way Im doing that.


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## laxu (Oct 20, 2016)

lewis said:


> lol eventually there wont be any guitar builders left to use.
> 
> also, the reason why I would never go this route, is the idea of paying a company like £2500 with nothing to show for it, then have to wait (and trust them) for months and months and months. Perhaps if it worked the other way around, i.e they build the guitars first then INVOICE you for the amount (so they dont just get your money first but have to actually work for it) then perhaps these horror stories wouldnt exist.



Typically you pay a deposit of about 1/3 of the price and then the rest when it is done. If the luthier asks for full price up front they better be well established and with a good reputation. Of course you still end up losing deposit money or have to pester them to get it back if they don't deliver.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2016)

Maybe there needs to be an industry standard suggested. Of course, many builders will refuse to comply, but it needs to be understood that custom guitar builds are risky, and the risk being placed solely on the buyer will kill the industry as soon as someone screws up. I'm sure that placing all of the risk on the builder would have similar effect, since buyers are often flaky. 50% down and 50% upon completion seems like it has problems, too, as 50% may not cover enough of the materials, and there is that period of time where you have paid for everything and the builder has not yet shipped your guitar.

At any rate, if there was something decided, and enough buyers and builders agree that it's a good idea, then it might get enough traction to become a sort of best practice routine some day.


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## narad (Oct 20, 2016)

lewis said:


> lol eventually there wont be any guitar builders left to use.
> 
> also, the reason why I would never go this route, is the idea of paying a company like £2500+ with nothing to show for it, then have to wait (and trust them) for months and months and months. Perhaps if it worked the other way around, i.e they build the guitars first then INVOICE you for the amount (so they dont just get your money first but have to actually work for it) then perhaps these horror stories wouldnt exist.
> 
> ...




In 95% of these horror stories the builders are new and untested, and often offering prices that seem like a great deal. The problem isn't guitar builders -- it's novices offering services, and buyers taking additional risk to secure a low price and a short wait time. You try to make it about builders and you're just insulting guys like Nik Huber, Ken Lawrence, Frank Hartung, Dylan Humphries, Damien Probett, Chihoe Hahn, Saul Koll, Johan Gustavsson, Ulrich Teuffel, James Tyler, Tom Anderson, Matt Artinger, Ron Thorn, Roger Sadowsky, Sheldon Dingwall, on and on and on, who have been building guitars -- not without complaint, but without any take-your-money-and-run outcomes.

Of course, one of the problems is you have to actually pay these guys properly. You don't get to order an Artinger for $1500.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2016)

I have a lot of respect for these builders.

And although 95% may well be an accurate number, the other 5% or however much of high profile builders pulling scams is enough to shake people's beliefs in the entire system.

What is happening now is that the market for custom guitars is about to decline, not because of outside economic influences, but under the tension of its own bubble.

As a custom guitar consumer, I would love to see the industry take better care of itself. Maybe some simple rules of thumb as far as how the buyer and builder can best do business with each other would help. Not that builders would agree to follow soft guidelines, but maybe, if I see that a new-ish builder is following some of the recommended best practices, as far as the business end of things go, then I can have just a little more confidence in the transaction, not simply due to the practice itself, but also because I can acknowledge that the builder has made some efforts to be aware of safe business practices, and not spend my deposit on a new car and then have nothing left for materials when it's time to start the build.


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## narad (Oct 20, 2016)

bostjan said:


> And although 95% may well be an accurate number, the other 5% or however much of high profile builders pulling scams is enough to shake people's beliefs in the entire system.



That was super conservative. I think it's more like a 99%+ of custom guitar sales. It's just that SSO caters to a younger demographic, people more keen to save money and with less experience doing so, it distorts the perception of how scammy the marketplace is. But the main point I wanted to make is high profile != established. If you buy from established builders, there's pretty much 0 chance you're getting ripped off.



bostjan said:


> What is happening now is that the market for custom guitars is about to decline, not because of outside economic influences, but under the tension of its own bubble.



I see no indication of this at all.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2016)

narad said:


> That was super conservative. I think it's more like a 99%+ of custom guitar sales. It's just that SSO caters to a younger demographic, people more keen to save money and with less experience doing so, it distorts the perception of how scammy the marketplace is. But the main point I wanted to make is high profile != established. If you buy from established builders, there's pretty much 0 chance you're getting ripped off.
> 
> 
> 
> I see no indication of this at all.



The reason I mention high profile builders is that a new builder might take over a well established company and use the name of said company, so that, to the consumer, it is an established builder, but, in reality, behind the scenes, the customer may be dealing with someone much newer than that.

Ten years ago, when I was new here, I was trying to get a certain custom guitar done. I just now accomplished my goal, and not in the way I had first expected, but anyway, I ran into a number of scammy luthiers then, and one, in particular, had been building for decades, but totally tried to rip me off outright. Luckily, I had taken some rudimentary measures to avoid a scam, and, in that case, it all worked out. If the scammy luthier had taken any countermeasures to my contingency, I would have been screwed out of a guitar and a pile of cash.

I also was lucky enough to have crossed paths with Dan at Oni Guitars, and I commissioned him to build me two guitars that ended up being the best guitars I've ever held in my hands, and the entire process was a great experience, because Dan has a great grasp on the business end of things.

But, ten years ago, when there were fewer commercial luthiers in general than there are now. A lot of these guys popped up over the past ten years thanks to internet forums like this one, some of them thinking that they could learn how to build, buy tools, and make products all with one action, which makes the others who earnestly want to learn and buy tools and then start taking orders once they're ready to ramp things up look bad along with everyone else.

Maybe these guys were always around, but in the nineties, they didn't have the exposure, and thus the connection to make potential customers into buyers.


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## feraledge (Oct 20, 2016)

I'm with Narad on this one. I think the problem, to the degree there is one, is directly related to the quick up and down of wanting to be ahead of the curve on the newest builder. Everyone wants to be the first to grab the next Blackmachine and a bunch of high profile players enabled new builders who hadn't been put through the mill. They oversold while under-delivering and underwhelming. 
But that process granted benefit-of-the-doubt legitimacy to anyone calling themselves a luthier. I don't blame the customers, but, as Narad mentions, 99% of custom orders are a sure thing. 
As great as it sounds to want to have some third party or universal standard for how luthiers ought to behave, it's not realistic. Order from a large shop, you nearly always get what you want. Order from an established luthier, you should get the same. But to get a solid custom built takes time, there are typically lines and the build process isn't an in-and-out kind of thing. 
The fly-by-night scammers are people no one else would want to have to cover financially and they'll use a single case of the hyper-picky customer to cover over their worst infractions. As has been the case, they'll actually get followers even with that. No doubt there are still people who would want to hand BRJ cash in the hopes of getting an instrument. 
But you can't judge the entirety of the industry by its worst examples. They represent so little of the custom guitar world and all ideas about timelines and payments will seem arbitrary when held against a large and/or reputable shop. 
Look at the Daemoness thread! It's full of constant excitement instead of complaints and there's a three year wait for a lot of those folks. But if you know what you're getting into, you know it's worth it. There are no short cuts on that process that are worth taking.


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## DeathlyCream (Oct 22, 2016)

Before ordering, I checked what I could find about Sabre Guitars. But I never saw this thread.. For sure I wouldn't have ordered anything then from Christian Howes.

I saw a few videos, and some endorsed players who are not the most famous in the world but at least I just wanted something from a luthier which means someone who cannot delivers 100 guitars each month. The guy seemed to be reliable and as he was really easy to communicate with at first, I never saw it comming.

First time I was suspicious is like few months after the building process started, no answer to my emails or else. Moreover his build list isn't updated at all..

So in my opinion I should have look for information a little more about this guy and still I know I could trust a lot of companies but not this one. 

The fact is I really wanted a full custom guitar from woods to inlay design...but now.. i admit I would rather buy a kiesel, Ibanez, jackson, Caparison, schecter, Mayones... and so on... I gave up on the dream guitar


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## P-Ride (Oct 22, 2016)

Being able to say 'not now, I'm booked-up' is an important part of running any successful business.

Aside from resulting in minimal failed orders, it can help increase the perceived desirability of your brand and product.

I suspect the temptation of 50% deposits is the reason some luthiers fail on this point.


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## Explorer (Oct 26, 2016)

First, just to throw a little hashtag love at #SabreGuitars and making it easier for those thinking of doing research on said hashtag before putting down a deposit to fund this topic, along with the screenshots, of how #SabreGuitars has been doing business....

This story is just horrifying. I can't believe #SabreGuitars founder Chris Howes has gotten away with this so far.

I don't think it's likely #SabreGuitars founder Christian Howes is going to return money or even deliver guitars without a fight. It's always a mystery to me how companies like #SabreGuitars manage to hold on so long without the scam coming to light in a major way. 

Here's hoping #SabreGuitars founder Christian Howes sees the light, and all those waiting on refunds from #SabreGuitars finally get one.


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## TheTrooper (Nov 15, 2016)

Explorer said:


> First, just to throw a little hashtag love at #SabreGuitars and making it easier for those thinking of doing research on said hashtag before putting down a deposit to fund this topic, along with the screenshots, of how #SabreGuitars has been doing business....
> 
> This story is just horrifying. I can't believe #SabreGuitars founder Chris Howes has gotten away with this so far.
> 
> ...



You forgot to mention that #SabreGuitars is #SabreGuitars and because of that #SabreGuitars, #SabreGuitars.



Jokes aside, the thing is still going with many buyers; there's the Run they're doing with the group and there are no updates of any sort, except it looks like the guy broke his leg.


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## Aso (Nov 15, 2016)

This is an interesting thread. About two years ago, I was finally at the point in my life were I could afford a custom guitar and was looking at different builders. All the threads on this forum and others about builders stiffing clients and/or poorly built guitars really scared me off. I decided instead of going with a small builder that my first custom was from Jackson. I have since found a smaller shop to build some custom's and I couldn't be happier with them.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 13, 2017)

I still haven't got my guitar back from Sabre guitars . I keep getting told "my guitar is shipping tomorrow" every month or two when I eventually get a response, all my recent emails and messages are being ignored now.


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## JumpingInFire (Feb 13, 2017)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I still haven't got my guitar back from Sabre guitars . I keep getting told "my guitar is shipping tomorrow" every month or two when I eventually get a response, all my recent emails and messages are being ignored now.



Who?

I thought we were talking about #SabreGuitars . . .


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## narad (Feb 13, 2017)

That's nuts. When do we officially declare Sabre Guitars as not a luthier / functioning business?


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