# Rich from Ibanez rules silver treatment



## davefishman777 (Jun 2, 2020)

Does anyone here have any experience with his setups! I just bought an rgd7ucs with the silver treatment and would just like to know if people like it. Thanks


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## park0496 (Jun 2, 2020)

I’ve heard they’re phenomenal


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jun 2, 2020)

Never bought one from Rich, but if I ever buy a brand new ibanez again it'll be from him. 

Seems to be the consensus around here that he's top notch.


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## jaxadam (Jun 2, 2020)

I’ve bought quite a few with his “treatments” and they’ve always been out of this world. Best playing setups I’ve ever had.


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## Shawn (Jun 2, 2020)

I’ve had both guitars that I bought off him setup by him and to this day, one of them is my best playing guitar. My UV7BK’s fret ends are filed into round ends and it’s flawless. His attention to detail is amazing. That was back in 2006. It still plays amazing. The other one I bought off him was a UV7PWH, back in 2005 that I sold years ago and that guitar was just as amazing in terms of how he set it up. I sold it only because the body had some dings and I wanted a dead mint one which I was able to find years later through a private sale. 

Rich is the man. I love it how I can still call him up and get parts from him when I’m in need too. Highly recommend buying from him but also his setups.


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## davefishman777 (Jun 2, 2020)

Amazing, I'm so pumped to get this guitar how can I get ahold of him incase I ever need parts?


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## jaxadam (Jun 2, 2020)

Just email him, he’s very good about responding.


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## c7spheres (Jun 2, 2020)

No direct experience but read many positive experiences from others.


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## MIL8 (Jun 2, 2020)

The few times I've emailed him he responded in a few minutes each time.


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## mbardu (Jun 3, 2020)

My only experience with his setup was indirect- as in buying a guitar second hand that he had setup quite some time before. Well even that was still one of the best playing Ibanez I played. Otherwise, you'll see that his reputation is generally just stellar online.

Didn't know he was feeling better and back to doing setups. 
Not that I'm in the market, but that's great to hear regardless!


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## davefishman777 (Jun 3, 2020)

mbardu said:


> My only experience with his setup was indirect- as in buying a guitar second hand that he had setup quite some time before. Well even that was still one of the best playing Ibanez I played. Otherwise, you'll see that his reputation is generally just stellar online.
> 
> Didn't know he was feeling better and back to doing setups.
> Not that I'm in the market, but that's great to hear regardless!


That's great to hear but I'm not sure if he is feeling well, I didn't even know about his health. The guitar I bought is second hand but hardly used so it's like new.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 3, 2020)

Iirc he messed up his hand and had surgery. So be patient he’s normally a 10/10 experience.


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## brett8388 (Jun 3, 2020)

Rich has been around forever and all you read is positive experiences with him. I've purchased several high dollar guitars from him and had zero issues except for unpacking them - it takes a while because he packs them to withstand a nuclear bomb. 100% recommended.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Jun 3, 2020)

Another satisfied customer. I’ve only had the full on Platinum level package, but it was worth every penny.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 3, 2020)

brett8388 said:


> Rich has been around forever and all you read is positive experiences with him. I've purchased several high dollar guitars from him and had zero issues except for unpacking them - it takes a while because he packs them to withstand a nuclear bomb. 100% recommended.



Haha yes! You don’t open up a package from him you unravel.


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## jaxadam (Jun 3, 2020)

brett8388 said:


> Rich has been around forever and all you read is positive experiences with him. I've purchased several high dollar guitars from him and had zero issues except for unpacking them - it takes a while because he packs them to withstand a nuclear bomb. 100% recommended.



This is so spot on. My Jem 20th was a bubble wrapped case in a padded box in another padded box. When I was done I had so much packing lying around it looked like I bought a bedroom set from IKEA.


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## duffbeer33 (Jun 3, 2020)

I worked with Rich a few months back, and can confirm that he is the real deal. He was dealing with the injury at the time so he wasn't offering setups in his usual timetable, so I actually bought one in "as-is" condition. I was actually impressed with how nice the "as-is" was, so I have to believe his bronze/silver/gold/platinum packages are top notch. He clearly pays attention to detail when purchasing and maintaining his inventory, and does a great job packaging them. Enjoy the RGD7UCS -- that thing looks killer!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 3, 2020)

Pretty much echoing everyone above. You can't go wrong with Rich.


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## Cole Justesen (Jun 3, 2020)

This Rich guys sounds legit... I am fairly new to this forum, and not exactly sure who he is. Can someone enlighten me, or post a link to his business? Thanks!

Cole


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## gunshow86de (Jun 3, 2020)

Cole Justesen said:


> This Rich guys sounds legit... I am fairly new to this forum, and not exactly sure who he is. Can someone enlighten me, or post a link to his business? Thanks!
> 
> Cole



https://www.ibanezrules.com/new/index.htm

Don't be fooled by the Geocities style coding, Rich is legit. Been over 10 years since I bought a guitar from him (the site looked the same back then), and the setup was perfect out of the box.


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## Cole Justesen (Jun 3, 2020)

^ Thanks!

Cole


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## WYLD STALLYNS (Jun 3, 2020)

davefishman777 said:


> Does anyone here have any experience with his setups! I just bought an rgd7ucs with the silver treatment and would just like to know if people like it. Thanks
> View attachment 81415


Rich Harris is the second vendor of guitars I tell people to go to.
First is Nick Yoffe at the Walpole,MA AxePalace.com 
Second, is Rich HArris in Jersey

Now while NIck Yoffe definitely has the stock and inventory one up due to variety and rare pieces he gets being an exclusive dealer, Rich Harris also is very special for Ibanez - he IS Hoshino, USA. If you need want or can think of anything Ibanez related, especially Jems and UVs, Rich knows almost EVERYTHING, like @MaxOfMetal “foster father,” like that’s how much he knows and has

I bought a part, he only had one left as they were no longer made since like 1998 and he had ONE left for me!!!! No one else know WTF it was.

So anything rich offers IS 100% legit and top notch like Axe palace

WITH THAT SAID

RICH IS SEVERELY INJURED SO I WOULD BE NICE AND LET HIM HEAL


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## RiksRiks (Jun 3, 2020)

This post really made me interested in buying a guitar from Ibanez Rules, I would love to hear if any members from outside of the USA can share their experiences with shipping and all that. The Silver Treatment sounds quite nice.


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## benny (Jun 3, 2020)

Just adding to the pile of positives... My RG2228 from Rich is superb. He's very detail oriented, so even his as-is instruments include excellent QC.


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## JP Universe (Jun 4, 2020)

Ignore the shortness in his communication and go for it

Rich is A+++ with this stuff


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## DCM_Allan (Jun 28, 2020)

I bought my DCM100 and S5527qfx from Rich, but I'd preferred to pay the AS IS Pricing instead of the Silver, bronze or platinum treatment, I prefer to do that it with a Luthier friend who makes a personalized job and special price for me, less expensive and I think, better that Rich offers, but I like to buy my guitars from Rich, I trust him.


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## park0496 (Jun 29, 2020)

That’s not a bad strategy since he only keeps the good stuff and sends back the shitty ones haha


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## Atarilovesyou (Aug 16, 2020)

Rich is awesome. I wish I lived in the States to get my Ibanez gear from him. He's a busy dude but when I'm in a pinch for advice, he has always helped me out.


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## MFB (Aug 17, 2020)

Has Rich ever commented on the aesthetics of his website, now that we're in 2020 and it still looks like a 1999 Geocities page?  Obviously anyone who knows of him or is recommended to him while say, "Don't worry about that," but I'm sure for newcomers it can be a slightly worrying sight.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2020)

MFB said:


> Has Rich ever commented on the aesthetics of his website, now that we're in 2020 and it still looks like a 1999 Geocities page?  Obviously anyone who knows of him or is recommended to him while say, "Don't worry about that," but I'm sure for newcomers it can be a slightly worrying sight.



He's mentioned it before, and he might still have a banner up explaining/mocking it. 

I doubt it's hurt sales. Anyone who Googles "Ibanez Rules" or "Rich Harris" will see he's the real deal.


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## nickgray (Aug 17, 2020)

MFB said:


> 1999 Geocities page



In all honesty, I'd take a 1999 page over a bloated modern Web 666.0 page that eats up half your RAM, and yet somehow doesn't manage to improve anything from the usability perspective.


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## Seabeast2000 (Aug 17, 2020)

nickgray said:


> In all honesty, I'd take a 1999 page over a bloated modern Web 666.0 page that eats up half your RAM, and yet somehow doesn't manage to improve anything from the usability perspective.



It does feel good to get to a site not loaded with trackers and cross-site cookies so that you can be fully harvested.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 17, 2020)

MFB said:


> Has Rich ever commented on the aesthetics of his website, now that we're in 2020 and it still looks like a 1999 Geocities page?  Obviously anyone who knows of him or is recommended to him while say, "Don't worry about that," but I'm sure for newcomers it can be a slightly worrying sight.



I believe he used to even acknowledge the issues with the look of his site ON his site.

I also understand that he does enough business through “word of mouth” that he doesn’t need to worry about the fact his website is older than many of the guys who now buy from him


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## MFB (Aug 17, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> He's mentioned it before, and he might still have a banner up explaining/mocking it.
> 
> I doubt it's hurt sales. Anyone who Googles "Ibanez Rules" or "Rich Harris" will see he's the real deal.





_MonSTeR_ said:


> I believe he used to even acknowledge the issues with the look of his site ON his site.
> 
> I also understand that he does enough business through “word of mouth” that he doesn’t need to worry about the fact his website is older than many of the guys who now buy from him



Exactly, I just wasn't sure how much stock he put into the website given how long he's been at it, and if he knew that the website was as infamous as it is because of it; I figured he had to have known, but never checked into it


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## aesthyrian (Aug 17, 2020)

MFB said:


> Has Rich ever commented on the aesthetics of his website, now that we're in 2020 and it still looks like a 1999 Geocities page?  Obviously anyone who knows of him or is recommended to him while say, "Don't worry about that," but I'm sure for newcomers it can be a slightly worrying sight.



If he ever changes it, all of us grumpy old fucks who are used to the site and find it nostalgic will lose our shit. Rich knows better, he deals with us often enough haha


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## Heavy_Arms (Aug 19, 2020)

Just wanted to echo what's already been said. He's very quick to respond to emails and very helpful, reach out to him.


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

i dont get the hype, I mean it takes 30 mins tops to do a full setup including action, neck relief, intonation, shimming as needed. A new prestige rarely needs a fret level or fret end treatment. And I could never trust someone else to get the exact setup I prefer...


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> i dont get the hype, I mean it takes 30 mins tops to do a full setup including action, neck relief, intonation, shimming as needed. A new prestige rarely needs a fret level or fret end treatment. And I could never trust someone else to get the exact setup I prefer...



I’ve been playing Ibanez guitars since the early 90s and I consider myself a pretty knowledgable chap with regards to setting up a guitar.

The difference between a setup I can do, or a set up most techs would do and a set up Rich does is he effectively ‘blue prints’ the instrument. The platinum setup is literally on a whole other level to anything I’ve seen anywhere else, bearing in mind I’ve got 30 years experience and deep pockets.

If you can match Rich’s silver setups in half an hour, I suggest you go into business as a tech because it’s almost certainly a higher hourly rate than you’re on now!

It’s $300 for a silver setup, which in your half an hour means with a full order book you'd be on about a million bucks a year...


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I’ve been playing Ibanez guitars since the early 90s and I consider myself a pretty knowledgable chap with regards to setting up a guitar.
> 
> The difference between a setup I can do, or a set up most techs would do and a set up Rich does is he effectively ‘blue prints’ the instrument. The platinum setup is literally on a whole other level to anything I’ve seen anywhere else, bearing in mind I’ve got 30 years experience and deep pockets.
> 
> ...



makes zero sense

like I said I know exactly what action, neck relief, string height etc I prefer and I can achieve that in 30 mins. there is no way rich can know or do exactly that. I never said I was better than him.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> makes zero sense
> 
> like I said I know exactly what action, neck relief, string height etc I prefer and I can achieve that in 30 mins. there is no way rich can know or do exactly that. I never said I was better than him.



I made perfect sense. And no, what you ACTUALLY said was ...



bzhang9 said:


> i dont get the hype, I mean it takes 30 mins tops to do a full setup including action, neck relief, intonation, shimming as needed. A new prestige rarely needs a fret level or fret end treatment. And I could never trust someone else to get the exact setup I prefer...



Which implies that you think in *any *instance, *any *person should be able to set up *any *Ibanez to play as well as one that they've specified from Rich.

I like to think I know what I'm doing when setting up a guitar, I've been doing it for nearly 30 years. I can't match what Rich does with regards to how I like a guitar to play. I certainly can't do that in 30 minutes. 

You might be able do that for how _you _like a guitar to play and that's fine. I suggested that if you can do the same in half an hour for how _other _people like their guitar to play, you might be on to a lucrative business opportunity.


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I made perfect sense. And no, what you ACTUALLY said was ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would I do that? I never claimed I can set up your guitar how you like it, but I guarantee I can set up my own guitars to my own preference better than paying someone who is not familiar with my preference.

If you've been doing setups for 30 years and can't nail your own setup that's kinda sad...


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> makes zero sense
> 
> like I said I know exactly what action, neck relief, string height etc I prefer and I can achieve that in 30 mins. there is no way rich can know or do exactly that. I never said I was better than him.



If you think that's all that Rich does, you have no idea what we're talking about. Full stop.


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## jaxadam (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> If you've been doing setups for 30 years and can't nail your own setup that's kinda sad...



I'll admit I can do a pretty sad 30 year experience setup, and I somewhat know my way around a guitar. Every guitar I've gotten from Rich has been impeccable. He just sets up the specific guitar to be the best that that instrument can be. They may be a little bit different here or there, but they all play like butter, absolutely perfect and better than I can do, because I'm not shimming my trem saddles, filing my nuts, cutting frets, etc.


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you think that's all that Rich does, you have no idea what we're talking about. Full stop.



that's why I said etc... I do more than that, and I'm sure he does too, maybe you can enlighten us amateurs


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> that's why I said etc... I do more than that, and I'm sure he does too, maybe you can enlighten us amateurs



Nah. The info is on his site. If you actually want to know, go read it. Obviously it was too hard to do so before.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> If you've been doing setups for 30 years and can't nail your own setup that's kinda sad...



It is. But then I've also been throwing a football for 30 years and I'm still not as good as Tom Brady. I've been driving a car for nearly 30 years and I'm still not as good as Lewis Hamilton. I've been doing guitar setups for 30 years and I'm still not as good as Rich Harris.


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## nickgray (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> that's why I said etc... I do more than that, and I'm sure he does too, maybe you can enlighten us amateurs



You can look it up here

https://www.ibanezrules.com/new/setup_levels.htm

I've never ordered from him, but his tech page is an absolute goldmine, I reckon the guy knows his shit pretty well based on that alone.


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## aesthyrian (Aug 23, 2020)

Rich is an Ibanez expert, he can probably hold an Ibanez and within a few moments know all the defects and possible issues and whether or not it's worth it to address and fix it or just send it back. None of us will have the expertise and experience with Ibanez guitars that Rich has. If you don't value or find worth in that, that's fine, but to try and disregard it is absolutely laughable.


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## Rosal76 (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> i dont get the hype, I mean it takes 30 mins tops to do a full setup including action, neck relief, intonation, shimming as needed. A new prestige rarely needs a fret level or fret end treatment. And I could never trust someone else to get the exact setup I prefer...



I've never purchased a guitar from Rich but it's possible that he's taking apart the guitar and checking, measuring, re checking, and re measuring every part on the guitar. One of the forum members stated that he blue prints the instrument so that definitely helps because every part on the guitar is examined and assured that the fit is perfect. No gaps, everything tight, no weird off angles, etc, etc, etc. If something is off, it's possible Rich may modify the part(s) so it does fit perfectly. Again, I don't know what Rich actually does to the guitars but blue printing anything, especially high performance engines in cars actually helps the engines perform better. I understand car engines and guitars are completely 2 different things but it is known that guitars have played better when blue printed. Again, I don't know what Rich does it detail and I'm just speculating.


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> It is. But then I've also been throwing a football for 30 years and I'm still not as good as Tom Brady. I've been driving a car for nearly 30 years and I'm still not as good as Lewis Hamilton. I've been doing guitar setups for 30 years and I'm still not as good as Rich Harris.



lol this comparison, you getting paid 100 million to set up guitars?

point is 90% of those things he does it not necessary on a non lemon prestige and results in a negligible improvement in performance

even if he does all those things chances are he won't nail your exact preferences, you might still need to adjust action, relief, shim to your preference etc

you can get 90% there by learning how to do a good setup yourself, if you're loaded and wanna pay $300 or whatever for that other 10% good for you, but its not necessary for a top performing setup on a non lemon prestige


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 23, 2020)

"I found out what he does five minutes ago, and don't know the process of ordering from him is, but I certainly know what I'm talking about."


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## jaxadam (Aug 23, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> "I found out what he does five minutes ago, and don't know the process of ordering from him is, but I certainly know what I'm talking about."



Pretty much


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## jephjacques (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang manages to be wrong in every single post they make and it's honestly kind of impressive


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> lol this comparison, you getting paid 100 million to set up guitars?
> 
> point is 90% of those things he does it not necessary on a non lemon prestige and results in a negligible improvement in performance
> 
> ...



Huge yikes.

Have some fun browsing Rich's website, you know absolutely nothing in regards to what he does. It's point blank fret servicing and leveling, combined with other well documented consistent issues from the Ibanez camp that Rich has enough of a sample pool to know what he's talking about when Ibanez fucks up, and when they improve. You know, things you don't have to worry about or pay for when you buy a guitar like an EBMM, because they have more labor and hours put into each guitar 



> Silver is a finer instrument, as perfect as it gets, nothing more can technically be done to make it play better. Gold and Platinum Levels just adds unnecessary frills, fret end rounding, fingerboard edge rounding, sanding, smoothing, higher level of polish, etc. Very fine instruments, but include things not necessary for your guitar to be the instrument you want



https://www.ibanezrules.com/new/setup_levels.htm

He point blank says that Gold and Platinum provide nothing is done here that elevates the guitar's playability, it's pretty transparent. 

And at the end of the day, brotherman still offers you the Ibanez at retail cost or less if you want to opt out of his service packages. If you can setup your guitars to your preference then by all means do so, but if you want to keep assuming what you do = what Rich does, then gear up with some stewmac gear and enjoy your Guitar Center experience, all they do is receive the guitar in a box and ship it to you.

Just looking back on some email threads, Rich even fixed things like sharp fret ends for me at no additional cost to me and other manufacturing mistakes.


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## c7spheres (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> i dont get the hype, I mean it takes 30 mins tops to do a full setup including action, neck relief, intonation, shimming as needed. A new prestige rarely needs a fret level or fret end treatment. And I could never trust someone else to get the exact setup I prefer...


- In a perfect world. You've been lucky in your case I think. I can spend days on my guitars to get them "perfect". The quicky setups are what you get at Guitar Center for $60. I do a "will breaking" on my guitars and they will stay put for years before I have to mess with them again, but I do agree with you that nobody can really "know" what you like best. You have to do that yourself, but then again, you may like how someone else does it better than you can do it. It's all just preferences.
- With not wanting to sound arrogant or anything or discounting Rich or anyone else, I'm confident I can setup and dress a guitar as good as anyone else I'd pay to do it (mostly) but I've been doing it for around 30 years myself give or take. It still can take me days to really do it right. I'm not talking these quicky setups. im talking about long term "Will breaking" the guitar. The process takes days because there's settling times involved and temperature and humitdy changes etc to deal with and truss rods and all that. You can't rush certain processes, at least with wooden guitars. The real settling on a guitar takes place after a couple years worth of adjustments through the course of string changes and season changes, post fret sprouting etc. For the most part you can get it to 95% where it should be in 30-60 minutes though and that's usually good enough. There's an incredible amount of work between 95% and 99% perfect , imo.
- Again, I do agree with you that nobody can really "know" what you like best. If someone wants Richs' treatments then that's great. I get absolutely no vibes from Rich that he's over charging or trying to upsell a bs service, not that you ever accused him or anything. It's just the upcharge is for the time involved.


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Huge yikes.
> 
> Have some fun browsing Rich's website, you know absolutely nothing in regards to what he does. It's point blank fret servicing and leveling, combined with other well documented consistent issues from the Ibanez camp that Rich has enough of a sample pool to know what he's talking about when Ibanez fucks up, and when they improve. You know, things you don't have to worry about or pay for when you buy a guitar like an EBMM, because they have more labor and hours put into each guitar
> 
> ...



Or just check your own guitars and return them if it has issues, which is uncommon in new prestiges.

You just proved my point, most of what he does has minimal effect on play-ability. 90% of how a guitar plays is achieved with a basic setup which everyone can learn to do better than some who is not familiar with their preferences. 

people in here acting like everything he sells is some untouchable gold, some serious fanboy going on


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Or just check your own guitars and return them if it has issues, which is uncommon in new prestiges.
> 
> You just proved my point, most of what he does has minimal effect on play-ability. 90% of how a guitar plays is achieved with a basic setup which everyone can learn to do better than some who is not familiar with their preferences.
> 
> people in here acting like everything he sells is some untouchable gold, some serious fanboy going on



You came in here with absolutely no idea what anyone was talking about, none, claiming it was "hype", when all folks are saying is he delivers the best possible instrument, which he does, if you're the type of person who is willing to pay for it, which plenty are. 

He'll sell you an out of the box guitar too, for a great price (sometimes below competitiors) and it will NOT be a lemon, but you probably didn't know that either. 

You're free to play retailer roulette with one of the big box stores that doesn't give a shit about what you get, or you can support a pillar of the guitar community who will, without doubt, make sure you're happy because they genuinely care about what you receive. 

For the folks following at home: Rich Harris and Ibanez Rules are NOT hype. It really is the only place folks who buy Ibanez new should go. I say that as someone who at one point would have been considered a competitor. The prices are great for what you get, and the service cannot be beat. That's also coming from someone who has owned dozens of Ibanez guitars over the years, and has repaired and setup guitars professionally for decades.


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## Frostbite (Aug 23, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Or just check your own guitars and return them if it has issues, which is uncommon in new prestiges.
> 
> You just proved my point, most of what he does has minimal effect on play-ability. 90% of how a guitar plays is achieved with a basic setup which everyone can learn to do better than some who is not familiar with their preferences.
> 
> people in here acting like everything he sells is some untouchable gold, some serious fanboy going on


Jesus christ you're dense. Just take the fucking L my guy


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## bzhang9 (Aug 23, 2020)

Frostbite said:


> Jesus christ you're dense. Just take the fucking L my guy



Nah, my guy, being able to set up my own guitars for free to my exact specs sounds like a W compared to people paying 300+

Like I said, if you have money to burn and want his package go for it

Many people don't have the money and they should know they can still learn to do an excellent set up on their own guitars without being misled Rich's set up is going to make a world of difference, it doesn't

a little better than a top tier home setup? maybe. but also not to your exact specs


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Or just check your own guitars and return them if it has issues, which is uncommon in new prestiges.
> 
> You just proved my point, most of what he does has minimal effect on play-ability. 90% of how a guitar plays is achieved with a basic setup which everyone can learn to do better than some who is not familiar with their preferences.
> 
> people in here acting like everything he sells is some untouchable gold, some serious fanboy going on



I absolutely did NOT prove your point, feel free to re-read.



> Silver is a finer instrument, as perfect as it gets, *nothing more can technically be done to make it play better*. Gold and Platinum Levels just adds unnecessary frills, fret end rounding, fingerboard edge rounding, sanding, smoothing, higher level of polish, etc. Very fine instruments, but include things not necessary for your guitar to be the instrument you want



He's saying that if you only care about your basics, and from our previous discussions it's very obvious that you don't need a 3000 dollar instrument to play what you need to. Then the silver package provides all enhancements that would negatively affect your guitar out of the box, and that any packages above that are just further refinements that have no bearing on the playability of the guitar. Maybe you have unlimited time to play ship-n-swap with Guitar Center, but most people find that to be a hassle and a waste of time for everyone involved.

It's not even money to burn, I'm not sure why you're even kicking a fuss in the first place. You have never bought from him and several people who have say that his service packages are well worth it and they enjoyed what they received. Do you think techs are useless and provide nothing of value? Yeah you might be able to crank your action just enough to not hear the choking of your frets when you play, but guitars routinely require fret levels and crowning to avoid these imperfections, and filing the ends of the frets to avoid shrinking frets tearing your hands up.

I want to chalk it up to you just brisking the page and literally not understanding what is being said but here's a simple breakdown.

People tend to receive guitars, then go pay someone they know the same amount of money to perform a setup + fret level/crown + fret end treatments that Rich charges for his service packages. If the guitar needs it, Rich will just point blank tell you and let you know that you can buy the guitar as is if you'd like to save on the retail price, and you can choose to ignore that and get the guitar anyways and pay someone else to level the frets and fix every issue at a later point when they start to bother you far more.

Or if the guitar is in need of it, you can pay Rich 200 for the guitar to be tuned up and play *perfectly* guaranteed, out of the box.


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## Given To Fly (Aug 24, 2020)

Rich's parts inventory and his knowledge behind it is nothing to sneeze at.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 24, 2020)

Given To Fly said:


> Rich's parts inventory and his knowledge behind it is nothing to sneeze at.



Nah man it's just a spreadsheet and he reads off of a wiki, anyone can do it! 

/s if it weren't anymore obvious


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## Zhysick (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Nah, my guy, being able to set up my own guitars for free to my exact specs sounds like a W compared to people paying 300+
> 
> Like I said, if you have money to burn and want his package go for it
> 
> ...



Sorry, have you ever had a Rich setup? How do you know it's not a great setup to consider someone is misleading others saying that Rich's setups are not going to make a big difference?

Anyway, please, don't even care in reply, the same moment you said that most prestige Ibanez doesn't need any work at all you lost all credibility...


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## jaxadam (Aug 24, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> Sorry, have you ever had a Rich setup?



Yeah, I find it odd when people completely discount something they've never tried.


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## Zhysick (Aug 24, 2020)

"I don't like pineapple in pizza, it's gross, I have never tried it, but it's gross"


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## nickgray (Aug 24, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> pineapple in pizza



Come on now, we're not complete savages here, let's keep it civilized.


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## Frostbite (Aug 24, 2020)

nickgray said:


> Come on now, we're not complete savages here, let's keep it civilized.


Light pineapple with bacon is fantastic and I'll fist fight anyone who says otherwise


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 24, 2020)

how many days can we go before this bzhang guy authoritatively talks out of his ass.


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## chipchappy (Aug 24, 2020)

guys leave bzhang alone. He's just broke and likes his action an inch off the fretboard or something


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## jaxadam (Aug 24, 2020)

chipchappy said:


> guys leave bzhang alone. He's just broke and likes his action an inch off the fretboard or something



Ironically if that’s the way you like it, Rich will set it up that way. Every guitar I get from him I tell him I want all strings .008 gauge tuned to high E. I like to call it open E 80’s shred tuning.


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## Exit Existence (Aug 24, 2020)

I heard that he might be retiring anyways, he had bad accident with some power tools and almost lost a finger...

EDIT: Nevermind checked his website, he's back to work with 9.5/10 fingers lol


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## Vletrmx (Aug 24, 2020)

Rich views a guitar like a systems optimization problem. You'd have to be pretty arrogant to think that level of attention to detail and knowledge doesn't make a difference in playability.


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## Soya (Aug 24, 2020)

Pretty arrogant and doesn't seem to ever know what he's talking about? Dang you got Bzhang nailed.


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## jephjacques (Aug 24, 2020)

I like to shitpost as much as anybody but if max says “nah dude you’re wrong about X” I’m happy to learn something instead of digging in my heels so everyone can see my entire ass


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## jephjacques (Aug 24, 2020)

Can’t wait for bzhang to chime in like “showing your entire ass is good, actually,”


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## jaxadam (Aug 24, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> but if jax says “nah dude you’re wrong about X” I’m happy to learn something instead of digging in my heels so everyone can see my entire ass



FTFY


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## Frostbite (Aug 24, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> I like to shitpost as much as anybody but if max says “nah dude you’re wrong about X” I’m happy to learn something instead of digging in my heels so everyone can see my entire ass


But I wanna see that ass bb


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## bzhang9 (Aug 24, 2020)

agree to disagree, but the amount of butt hurt in here is impressive


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## jaxadam (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> agree to disagree, but the amount of butt hurt in here is impressive



Do you leave 1-star Yelp reviews for restaurants you've never been to?


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## bzhang9 (Aug 24, 2020)

jaxadam said:


> Do you leave 1-star Yelp reviews for restaurants you've never been to?



you're funny, no one here can prove that a top setup done by an experienced guitarist to his own specs is significantly worse than rich's nice but generic set up, there are a lot of details in a setup that is subjective and not one fits all, there is no such thing as best setup for everyone, it's like I'm talking to children in here jesus


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## jaxadam (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> you're funny



This is the only thing I can agree with. But then again, I'm my best funny _to me_, and my funny is sometimes not the best funny for everyone else.


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## Zhysick (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> you're funny, no one here can prove that a top setup done by an experienced guitarist to his own specs is significantly worse than rich's nice but generic set up, there are a lot of details in a setup that is subjective and not one fits all, there is no such thing as best setup for everyone,* it's like I'm talking to children in here jesus*




HAHAHAAHAHAHAHA That really made me laugh out loud dude...

There is a famous "joke" in spanish that I will try to translate, I guess it's not going to be pretty funny as it is not in spanish neither, but you will get the point... hopefully

- Wife: Honey, be careful, I just saw in the news that there is one stupid driver in the wrong lane agains traffic direction putting everyone in danger and that's the same road you take home to come back from work!
- Husband: One? Hundreds of idiots baby!

And, with that amazing joke I am ready to go.

Cheers everybody, it was a pleasure!


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## nickgray (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> you're funny, no one here can prove that a top setup done by an experienced guitarist to his own specs



Seriously, how many "experienced guitarists" have the right tools and can do a high quality nut job? A tiny fraction, I imagine. Not to mention working on a metal nut, that's even more exotic. How many will have shims specifically for their metal nut, of the right width and length, and saddle shims specifically for their type of floating trem? There are plenty of pros who can't even tell you the right specs of their guitars, let alone comment something on the tech stuff. I don't even know why I'm commenting on this, but it's just such a bizarre view that I can't help it.

If your tech is a hack who can't do shit (or you simply don't have access to a good tech) - yes, of course you're better off doing it yourself, but assuming you have a decent one, and you're an "experienced guitarist", surely you can measure all of the relevant specs, give the tech your favorite pair of strings, and you should get a near perfect setup. Hell, again, the nut alone is a massive show stopper for, presumably, the vast majority of guitarists - you need experience and an expensive set of tools, and if you're not a professional tech, both of those things are a problem for obvious reasons.


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## Bettershredthandead (Aug 24, 2020)

The few times I emailed Rich, he has been super helpful. Not to mention lightning fast something few and far between these days. I luv the dated website look. IMO, gives him all the more street cred. and shows he is all substance and cares little about the shallowness of 'appearance'. Hope it never changes actually. I see it as a banner of reassurance actually.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 24, 2020)

I think he's just one of those "where can I get the cheapest guitar with the bare minimum, because anything above that is over-priced and a waste of money" type of consumer.

No use reasoning with him, everyone loves a deal but he's constantly downplaying the work of others and evaluating everything above a used prestige as unnecessary.

I'm actually a big fan of diy projects, I don't pay others if something is within my means to do so and I have my tools that are compatible.

The bare minimum of any product can perform the same objective it's higher end variant can do. And that's all bzhang can see, he's just closed off from the ability of anything being better or improving.


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## Shawn (Aug 24, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Nah, my guy, being able to set up my own guitars for free to my exact specs sounds like a W compared to people paying 300+
> 
> Like I said, if you have money to burn and want his package go for it
> 
> ...


While I understand your point, you would have to buy a guitar and have his stellar setup to really understand and appreciate how great his setups are. If I could, I would lend you my uv7bk that he did his treatment on 14 years ago....the attention to detail is insane when it comes to fretwork, etc. How he files the ends into round smooth balls, that feel nice on your hands/palms. To this day it blows my mind.

I have a tech that sets up my guitars. I can set my guitars up but I like his work but even he is nowhere near Rich’s level. Until you actual see/feel in person after buying from him, you’ll just assume it’s not as good as people saying it is. I’ve been buying guitars for over 30 years. I’ve bought multiple guitars from him since 2005. He’s just magical at what he does. To this day, I still highly recommend buying from him. No fan boy or hype just the truth.


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## jephjacques (Aug 24, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> Can’t wait for bzhang to chime in like “showing your entire ass is good, actually,”





bzhang9 said:


> agree to disagree, but the amount of butt hurt in here is impressive



called it


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## Leviathus (Aug 24, 2020)




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## c7spheres (Aug 25, 2020)

God I hope he's coping well with went down with his finger and all. I got queezy looking at the pictures on his webiste. He'd warn's you beforhand but I had to look anyways. : )
- Rich if you read this best wishes to you.


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## SamSam (Aug 25, 2020)

Unfortunately as the years pass by skilled labour becomes more and more underappreciated. As happy as some of us may or may not be with our own set up skills, it's a testament to Rich's skills that he is literally world renowned at this point for how good his set ups are.


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## I play music (Aug 25, 2020)

SamSam said:


> Unfortunately as the years pass by skilled labour becomes more and more underappreciated.


Come on, it's just one (very vocal) guy not appreciating the skilled labor here. Apart from that guy, the whole thread is full of appreciation.


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## SamSam (Aug 25, 2020)

I play music said:


> Come on, it's just one (very vocal) guy not appreciating the skilled labor here. Apart from that guy, the whole thread is full of appreciation.



I meant in general. I am not sure where you are from but in the UK and where I live skilled labour training and apprenticeships are becoming much less common. In particular where I live where university tuition fees are paid for by government grants.


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## Jonathan20022 (Aug 25, 2020)

I play music said:


> Come on, it's just one (very vocal) guy not appreciating the skilled labor here. Apart from that guy, the whole thread is full of appreciation.



SamSam is right though, it's just a general observation from the upcoming generations. I've had friends who are dedicated and passionate mechanics get hassled for their work, and their prices are far from unreasonable.

People are definitely losing appreciation for people who are well renown and charge a fair rate. They'd rather pay $100 for a stainless steel refret, than pay someone with a solid reputation $300 and just get it done perfectly. Then if they get lucky and just happen to find someone who does it well at those rates, they'll gloat about how cheap they paid for it.


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 25, 2020)

Jonathan20022 said:


> SamSam is right though, it's just a general observation from the upcoming generations. I've had friends who are dedicated and passionate mechanics get hassled for their work, and their prices are far from unreasonable.
> 
> People are definitely losing appreciation for people who are well renown and charge a fair rate. They'd rather pay $100 for a stainless steel refret, than pay someone with a solid reputation $300 and just get it done perfectly. Then if they get lucky and just happen to find someone who does it well at those rates, they'll gloat about how cheap they paid for it.



or they just wallow in shit because they don't have 2 halves of a clue what good is supposed to be.


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## Vyn (Aug 25, 2020)

Remember the triangle:

Fast Work
Cheap Work
Quality Work

You can only ever pick two.


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## Zhysick (Aug 26, 2020)

Vyn said:


> Remember the triangle:
> 
> Fast Work
> Cheap Work
> ...



Really? Can you ever pick cheap and quality? I have never seen that... even if it takes a long time, I have never seen cheap and quality, specially when most of this kind of works involves time so the more time consuming, the more money you have to pay... But if longer time means cheaper I am happy with that! Where do I sign? I'm not in a hurry hahahaah


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## diagrammatiks (Aug 26, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> Really? Can you ever pick cheap and quality? I have never seen that... even if it takes a long time, I have never seen cheap and quality, specially when most of this kind of works involves time so the more time consuming, the more money you have to pay... But if longer time means cheaper I am happy with that! Where do I sign? I'm not in a hurry hahahaah



send me three guitars and i'll send them back when i've learned fretwork.


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## Zhysick (Aug 26, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> send me three guitars and i'll send them back when i've learned fretwork.



If you have to learn then I guess I won't trust you will deliver quality work hahahahaha


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## Vyn (Aug 26, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> Really? Can you ever pick cheap and quality? I have never seen that... even if it takes a long time, I have never seen cheap and quality, specially when most of this kind of works involves time so the more time consuming, the more money you have to pay... But if longer time means cheaper I am happy with that! Where do I sign? I'm not in a hurry hahahaah



The saying comes from (or I found it) through the automotive service industry. In the guitar world, the equivalent of selecting cheap and quality would be picking BRJ as your luthier (ie, you'll never get your guitar. And the quality is probably questionable anyway).


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## Zhysick (Aug 26, 2020)

Vyn said:


> The saying comes from (or I found it) through the automotive service industry. In the guitar world, the equivalent of selecting cheap and quality would be picking BRJ as your luthier (ie, you'll never get your guitar. And the quality is probably questionable anyway).



Yeah, I knew about the triangle but I always thought there was a flaw as, from my point of view, it's never possible to pick cheap and quality unless it's a massive made product where massive production can really push down the cost "making it cheap", but if it is hand-work it will never be cheap and quality as the longer you work, the more expensive it will be. The most expensive part of any work is the time anyway...


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## xzacx (Aug 26, 2020)

So much overthinking and underthinking in a single thread.


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## Bdtunn (Aug 26, 2020)

I’ve bought two guitars from rich and have never had a better more precise instrument in my life. I’ve taken my other guitars to many a luthier to get set up and it’s not even close. Keep in mind I’m super picky on set up due to being a ultra low action junkie!


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## jaxadam (Aug 27, 2020)

Bdtunn said:


> I’ve bought two guitars from rich and have never had a better more precise instrument in my life. I’ve taken my other guitars to many a luthier to get set up and it’s not even close. Keep in mind I’m super picky on set up due to being a ultra low action junkie!



Have you had a bzhang platinum? Once initial inspection determines it is a guitar and not a bass, color is verified and then it’s off to you!


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## _MonSTeR_ (Aug 27, 2020)

jaxadam said:


> Have you had a bzhang platinum? Once initial inspection determines it is a guitar and not a giraffe, color is verified and then it’s off to you!



ftfy


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## jephjacques (Aug 27, 2020)

anybody can learn to set up their giraffe to their liking, it's stupid to pay someone else to do it for you


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## Bdtunn (Aug 27, 2020)

jaxadam said:


> Have you had a bzhang platinum? Once initial inspection determines it is a guitar and not a bass, color is verified and then it’s off to you!



I have had a bzhang platinum servicing before but forgot to check for the Adam’s apple, live and learn I guess.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 27, 2020)

I too am capable of doing a "perfect" setup in 30 minutes


But in all seriousness, a good in depth setup takes me about an hour just for action/intonation/minor nut adjustments regardless if its a hardtail or trem. Add in touching up frets or shimming necks and trem saddles, and we're talking prob another hour at minimum (depending on how anal I want to be about the fret ends).


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## jaxadam (Aug 27, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I too am capable of doing a "perfect" setup in 30 minutes
> View attachment 84339
> 
> But in all seriousness, a good in depth setup takes me about an hour just for action/intonation/minor nut adjustments regardless if its a hardtail or trem. Add in touching up frets or shimming necks and trem saddles, and we're talking prob another hour at minimum (depending on how anal I want to be about the fret ends).



Shit doggie it takes me one week to tune a 7 string. I get the low B to pitch and let it settle for a day. Then low E, settle for a day, etc etc etc. Don’t even think about changing tunings at a gig without a backup.


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## jephjacques (Aug 28, 2020)

every night I sneak into jaxadam's house and detune all of their guitars by half a semitone


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## philkilla (Aug 28, 2020)

I've been swapping the springs from his Floyd's since 2007 without him catching me.


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## Ibanez Rules (Sep 6, 2020)

davefishman777 said:


> Does anyone here have any experience with his setups! I just bought an rgd7ucs with the silver treatment and would just like to know if people like it. Thanks
> View attachment 81415



Question is, how did you like it? You ordered at a time I think that was the first stainless job I had to do and my hand really wasn't up to anywhere near my best work and I hadn't polished stainless by hand in a couple years. I'm still not anywhere near my best, I'm leaving too many file marks doing fret ends, I have much to relearn to do different at different angles, and everything takes twice as long as it used to, but it'll get there right about the time I decide it's past time to hang it up. Then I'll just start a Youtube channel and turn the tech section into videos and expand it 1000%. Nobody reads anymore, including me. And I never wanted to burn out [although I have 20 times in this grind], I'd much rather just fade away.

I really should snoop around SSO more often. I just found this by accident. To everybody that chimed in, I appreciate all of you, including the doubters. It keeps me on my toes and never allows me to put out anything that's not the best I can.

I appreciate anybody that can and will do their own work. I think every good tech started out just working on their own guitars. The more you understand your instrument the better a player it can make you. Not that you need to know anything to run circles around me these days, still working on holding a pick right/wrong/somehow. But I don't have a one size fits all setup. People tell me how they want it and I'll set it up to your specs, if you can give me understandable specs. Because most people just say I want low action with minimal buzz and, that's my standard low. If you want it a hair higher or lower it's 60 seconds away, and a phone call if you need to be walked thru it. Otherwise I've had guys want sub 1mm action which is amazing for legato but just a buzz machine to me and big bends are going to choke on perfect frets.

I have no love of work, I'd much rather flip a guitar at minimal margin and let the buyer take care of it himself, but you're not going to take care of everything unless you get an especially good build. The reason higher levels cost more I describe on the 1990's bulletin board I call my site [I have peeps write that exact thing to me and ask if I'm still in business, always good for a laugh, and no, it's going to be that way long after I'm dead as it will stay online forever for shits and giggles] is because I add 1% of margin to each level, on top of the bench fee. If you make me work harder I charge you more, and it's more for insurance. The more you work on a guitar the greater chance there is you're going to f*ck something up, have a driver jump a screw and jab the finish, or 1000 other things that can happen, like slipping and jabbing a truss wrench into the edge of the rout on an MM1 I checked in last week and posted at cost just to move it on down the road.

No Prestige needs a fret level is the most ludicrous statement I've ever read. I have to do spot levels all the time on Bronze packages so I know the percentage is not low. At 1.4mm action last fret you can expect to find choking somewhere on about 20%, and the 80% that will play clean sure doesn't mean the fretwork is perfect, it just means it's good enough. 2 in 10 are crap, 2 in 10 are near perfect [there are none that are perfect], and the rest fall in the middle somewhere.

But that's the tip of the iceberg. The 10 years the nuts were so high you had to grind every one down just so you could get it low enough to take a shim or 2 for future adjustment, the 5 years they couldn't align a neck pocket right and how many neck pockets I had to correct to get perfect string alignment and not screw the pocket up, the last 8 years the arm holder springs on ED/LP/EP bind on the holder and never seat in the bar so you have to pull the trem and file the hole bigger, even on AS IS guitars, that is done, fret sprout, and electronics check all has to be done. They're just about done with the spring problem but it's still about a 20% issue, but the bushings are so fat now nobody can even seat a new bar so they can never tell the bar isn't being held in by the spring right anyway. Everytime they come out with a new trem and the radius of the baseplate mold needs alot of tweaking and the saddle molds also, which forced me to go have shims made in .005, .007 .008, .010, and .012, in center and offset lockdown hole just to be able to radius the bridge to match the frets perfectly. And considering you'll use up to .025 on some saddles, we're not talking minor irregularities, we're talking washer under the saddle type crap. The ubercrap screws they use on every 7 string so you have to Dremel open the head side of the screw hole to accept the good X23C screws to actually get the nut tight enough to keep it in place. The diminishing quality of the fret end work as the factory has to pump out more to satisfy the Chinese market, about to become the largest and beat out HUSA in allocations, and the only way they can pump out more work is to cut back on the hand work, what takes time. Many of the CNC problems have been addressed, but there's still plenty of irregulars that are otherwise really good guitars I'll accept knowing I have another job to do. It's harder to get really good inventory than it is to do that extra job. The nut height is still a problem on alot on Indo builds but it's improving, I've actually done a couple lately I did not have to grind! Go figure.

If any of you homegrown techs go that far then kudos to you. If you don't need it to play circles around the next guy, kudos to you. Please, save me the work and buy it someplace else, although I don't think anybody is selling them any cheaper than I am in the untouched class unless they're just trying to dump inventory. You can always find dealers that stock stuff they can't sell and end up taking loses, including me. And in this new age UPS is gouging so I've had to west coast surcharge. What used to be $60 is now $100 and is hurting too much.

The finger? Maybe halfway healed but these stitches are never going to dissolve and my PT is a sadist. But that's his job and even 6 oxy before I go in and I still need a stick to bite on as he does a very hard astym therapy on them. He actually made me cry last week, not in the boo hoo, but i was holding my breath and about breaking my molars so long I finally told him to stop, I needed a break, and when I opened my eyes they streamed out of the corners. But that's his job, to do what I'd never do to myself! I just think he likes it too much, but I make him laugh the whole time so I know it's not personal. But, I won't be touching the buffer again, that's a horse I have no intention of climbing back onto, out of principle alone. I've gone back to old school and getting my workout again using papers, micro mesh and steel wool. It made too much dust anyway. For sale if anybody close enough wants to pick it up!!

Oh, and I quit smoking weed 2 months ago so this just proves, I can still ramble away with the best even when I'm 100% sober!

Stay safe everybody.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 6, 2020)

I'm surprised that there are some many allocations to china.
there's a shitton of people here. but between the culture and the import taxes...it doesn't seem like many people are buying guitars really.


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## Musiscience (Sep 6, 2020)

Very informative post, glad to hear you are healing. I am looking forward to your video series. Most of my first ventures into setups were done with info from your site, so I know these videos are going to be gold.


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## mbardu (Sep 6, 2020)

Thanks so much for the post. Very informative about the process and about the true state of what to expect from Ibanez. I had never thought about the Chinese demand as a factor in the drop in hand-finish quality. 

No matter though, I'm just some dude on the internet, but i sincerely wish you the best for the recovery.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 6, 2020)

Does he do setups if you send him something? I might need one


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## jephjacques (Sep 6, 2020)

You're a mensch, Rich.


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## bzhang9 (Sep 8, 2020)

Lol this thread is still going!

Thing is rich there’s way more subjective preferences in a setup than simply changing the action. People prefer different nut clearance, neck relief, string height from body which requires variable shimming, even shimming the sides or different shimming from treble to bass side, same with shimming the trem, I could go on. It’s impossible to expect someone else to nail all those specs. IMO a truly perfect setup requires the own player to do, on top of your setup. And on most wel done prestiges it’s possible to get a great setup without those fancy details which cost a lot of $. Which is not saying your work is not worth the money, but people acting like it’s necessary to get a great playing instrument which is misleading for those who don’t have several hundred to spend on top of a guitar. Happy for your business and happy for those with all the $ to spend on setups.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 8, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Lol this thread is still going!
> 
> Thing is rich there’s way more subjective preferences in a setup than simply changing the action. People prefer different nut clearance, neck relief, string height from body which requires variable shimming, even shimming the sides or different shimming from treble to bass side, same with shimming the trem, I could go on. It’s impossible to expect someone else to nail all those specs. IMO a truly perfect setup requires the own player to do, on top of your setup. And on most wel done prestiges it’s possible to get a great setup without those fancy details which cost a lot of $. Which is not saying your work is not worth the money, but people acting like it’s necessary to get a great playing instrument which is misleading for those who don’t have several hundred to spend on top of a guitar. Happy for your business and happy for those with all the $ to spend on setups.



oh man far be it for a discussion to continue without you.


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## ScottThunes1960 (Sep 8, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Lol this thread is still going!
> 
> Thing is rich there’s way more subjective preferences in a setup than simply changing the action. People prefer different nut clearance, neck relief, string height from body which requires variable shimming, even shimming the sides or different shimming from treble to bass side, same with shimming the trem, I could go on. It’s impossible to expect someone else to nail all those specs. IMO a truly perfect setup requires the own player to do, on top of your setup. And on most wel done prestiges it’s possible to get a great setup without those fancy details which cost a lot of $. Which is not saying your work is not worth the money, but people acting like it’s necessary to get a great playing instrument which is misleading for those who don’t have several hundred to spend on top of a guitar. Happy for your business and happy for those with all the $ to spend on setups.



Oh man!


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 8, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> Lol this thread is still going!



Lol, you came back!



bzhang9 said:


> Thing is rich there’s way more subjective preferences in a setup than simply changing the action. People prefer different nut clearance, neck relief, string height from body which requires variable shimming, even shimming the sides or different shimming from treble to bass side, same with shimming the trem, I could go on. It’s impossible to expect someone else to nail all those specs. IMO a truly perfect setup requires the own player to do, on top of your setup.



Rich will do all that, you just have to have the conversation. And, as for needing the "own player to do", that'll be why guys like Vai, Satriani, Petrucci all have guitar techs who set their guitars up for them? that said, I guess if Petrucci sets his own guitars up "people would DIE, they'd just DIE"... So it's safer for everyone if he pays someone else... 



bzhang9 said:


> And on most wel done prestiges it’s possible to get a great setup without those fancy details which cost a lot of $. Which is not saying your work is not worth the money, but people acting like it’s necessary to get a great playing instrument which is misleading for those who don’t have several hundred to spend on top of a guitar. Happy for your business and happy for those with all the $ to spend on setups.



Yes, it's possible to get a great setup if you do it yourself. But I sincerely doubt that the average player can get the guitar playing as well as Rich can. As I said before, if you can match what Rich does to setup a guitar in just 30 minutes of your time, you're on to an absolute winner.


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## Ibanez Rules (Sep 8, 2020)

I guess he missed the point about having the cheapest prices on AS IS purchases so you can spend the least, for a guitar that's actually been inspected and passed and you can see pictures of exactly what you're buying, or that all that expensive money on even a medium priced guitar comes out to less that MAP, and far less on expensive guitars. But let's not allow a little truth to get into the equation. Nobody can do all that in 30 minutes, period. You can barely get a basic setup done in 30 minutes. And a Silver package is 5 hours.

And as previously stated, kudos to anybody that can do their own setups, that's the reason my tech section exists, to teach anybody to do their own or maintain what they receive. But anybody that thinks I can't follow specs detailed to me precisely? Action is one part of 100 things you can change in a setup, but the bottom line truth is maybe once a year somebody actually knows exactly what they want, and I've rarely missed the mark. All I need is somebody that can convey what they want, exactly, in mm please.

I know better than to reply again. Be well everyone.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 8, 2020)

Ibanez Rules said:


> I guess he missed the point about having the cheapest prices on AS IS purchases so you can spend the least, for a guitar that's actually been inspected and passed and you can see pictures of exactly what you're buying, or that all that expensive money on even a medium priced guitar comes out to less that MAP, and far less on expensive guitars. But let's not allow a little truth to get into the equation. Nobody can do all that in 30 minutes, period. You can barely get a basic setup done in 30 minutes. And a Silver package is 5 hours.
> 
> And as previously stated, kudos to anybody that can do their own setups, that's the reason my tech section exists, to teach anybody to do their own or maintain what they receive. But anybody that thinks I can't follow specs detailed to me precisely? Action is one part of 100 things you can change in a setup, but the bottom line truth is maybe once a year somebody actually knows exactly what they want, and I've rarely missed the mark. All I need is somebody that can convey what they want, exactly, in mm please.
> 
> I know better than to reply again. Be well everyone.



don't let ignorant trolls drive you off. 

Some people don't understand that upgrades and packages are a choice. There mere existence of an additional charge is enough to get them frothy.

I've read your website at least 10s of times. Thanks for everything you've done.


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## trem licking (Sep 8, 2020)

Yeah Rich, your site rules! Thanks for all the years of honest insight and information, I've used it more than thrice


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## jephjacques (Sep 8, 2020)

bzhang is dumb as shit and belongs on everyone's ignore list


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## jaxadam (Sep 8, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> bzhang is dumb as shit and belongs on everyone's ignore list



I don't know man, have you seen bzhang's 9 page guitar primer?


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 8, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> bzhang is dumb as shit and belongs on everyone's ignore list



But then that means the fun is over!


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## MrWulf (Sep 8, 2020)

The logic of "best setup is the one that the guitarist do it themselves," is astounding. I wouldnt trust my guitar, or my car, or anything intricate, to myself vs an expert but hey if you can do all of it yourself then go ahead, but to snidely comment that it is impossible to have a perfect setup with someone else (when you can literally tell a them how precise it have to be) is a. Elitist and b. Horseshit 

Bzhang sir go back to TGP and Gearslutz where you spawned from.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 8, 2020)

jaxadam said:


> I don't know man, have you seen bzhang's 9 page guitar primer?



Yep, when there was a shortage of toilet paper at the start of the pandemic, the printed version came in very useful...


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## jaxadam (Sep 8, 2020)

MrWulf said:


> The logic of "best setup is the one that the guitarist do it themselves," is astounding. I wouldnt trust my guitar, or my car, or anything intricate, to myself vs an expert but hey if you can do all of it yourself then go ahead, but to snidely comment that it is impossible to have a perfect setup with someone else (when you can literally tell a them how precise it have to be) is a. Elitist and b. Horseshit
> 
> Bzhang sir go back to TGP and Gearslutz where you spawned from.



I don't know dude, no one can set up my cars better than me, not even an ASE certified mechanic. Of course, they may know how to best set up that particular car to be it's particular best, but they won't know how I drive it!


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## Seabeast2000 (Sep 8, 2020)

In other news Plek stocks have been delisted .


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## xzacx (Sep 8, 2020)

Don't know about you guys, but I'd love to hear some recordings of a player whose technical prowess is so advanced that it requires such a precise and individualized setup. Must be incredible based on some of the hack players that have to rely on the techs they take on tour with them.


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## jaxadam (Sep 8, 2020)

xzacx said:


> Don't know about you guys, but I'd love to hear some recordings of a player whose technical prowess is so advanced that it requires such a precise and individualized setup. Must be incredible based on some of the hack players that have to rely on the techs they take on tour with them.


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## TheBolivianSniper (Sep 8, 2020)

jaxadam said:


>




how do I like a post twice


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 8, 2020)

What baffles me is that a setup effectively ends up being a set of measurements. If you're confident you like hardtails/TOMs/trems then you should be able to tell Rich.

"Hey man, my preferred action is 1.2mm at the 12th fret, as well as 1.0mm on the high side. I enjoy a bit of relief to the neck with a set of 10's in E Standard"

Your setup boils down to literally measurements, and Rich's involvement boils down to "X frets are lifted slightly and cause certain frets to choke when played let me perform a fret level to make sure the board and it's frets are hindering the guitar's ability to play all notes at your setup top to bottom". But I guess it's impossible to know your preferences exactly, and have someone else set your saddle/trem height equivalently 

Bzhang's stance is that you can absolutely play a guitar where 20% of it's frets choke out and that said fret level is just unneccesary work. And I guess you could, but you have to live with that weird rattle at the end of every note on those frets as you play on the guitar.


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## mbardu (Sep 8, 2020)

TheBolivianSniper said:


> how do I like a post twice



No kidding- that made my day


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Sep 8, 2020)

jaxadam said:


>



Good lord! I haven’t seen that in such a long time.


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## metalstrike (Jan 15, 2021)

Hey guys, sorry for the old bump but I'd like some of your inputs if possible!

So I'm debating getting an Ibanez from Rich after all of the great stuff I've heard. I've played some prestige Ibanez guitars at GC that had truly awful QC so I see the value in his packages. My question is do any of you guys specifically have experience with both the bronze and silver packages? I've read the difference and it looks like quite a bit gets done with bronze so I'm not sure that silver is necessary for me? If silver is really that much better that I wouldn't have an issue getting it. What would you guys do? Thanks!


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## jaxadam (Jan 15, 2021)

metalstrike said:


> Hey guys, sorry for the old bump but I'd like some of your inputs if possible!
> 
> So I'm debating getting an Ibanez from Rich after all of the great stuff I've heard. I've played some prestige Ibanez guitars at GC that had truly awful QC so I see the value in his packages. My question is do any of you guys specifically have experience with both the bronze and silver packages? I've read the difference and it looks like quite a bit gets done with bronze so I'm not sure that silver is necessary for me? If silver is really that much better that I wouldn't have an issue getting it. What would you guys do? Thanks!



I’ve been getting guitars from Rich before he did the packages... basically everything back then was a platinum if I recall correctly. Those were as good as it gets. I think the last one I got was the Ibanez Rules 20th anniversary limited run or whatever it was called and I believe it was either a bronze or silver and I can’t really tell a difference. Then again, I’m not too nit picky with fret ends, etc. You absolutely can’t go wrong with any level package he offers, it’ll be light years ahead of anything else.


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## jaxadam (Jan 15, 2021)

So I just looked it up and the last one I got was with the silver package. It is as good of an instrument as it gets. I don’t think I have any experience with the bronze, but I would say if you feel you can swing the silver, I’d go for it.


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## Bdtunn (Jan 15, 2021)

Same thing, I got the silver package on two guitars and they were just unreal!!


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## Ibanez Rules (Jan 15, 2021)

Silver is pure instrument level, fret level and additional fret end and board edge work, Prestige just isn't anything like it used to be. Over that is just fluff. With my current issues Silver is about as high as I'm doing unless it's a J Custom because most of the ball end needs to be shaved off from shrinking necks unless you hopefully get a winter build. But Silver on anything stainless is a problem, it's just too much work getting it polished back enough for me to be happy with it. Bronze is guaranteed to play clean so if it needs a spot level here or there, or some guitars actually need a full level to true up, it gets done, you just don't get the crowning and polishing and rest of the work you'd automatically get with Silver. 

I don't hate stainless, it works easy enough with the new tools, but is very difficult to polish unless by machine and I have my own issues there..... So I'm picking and choosing what I do on what. I'm not doing any Platinum packages on Genesis models, unless you've bought 10 guitars from me before, I'll take the extra time. And I prefer not to do Silver on anything stainless unless you realize the frets are not going to have great polish on them after, except the playing surface. The sides will be dull and slightly scratchy, I take them to 1200 and 4aught and that's it any more. Maybe someday I'll try those eraser looking polishing doohickies and see if they work any better on stainless. Maybe.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2021)

Ibanez Rules said:


> Silver is pure instrument level, fret level and additional fret end and board edge work, Prestige just isn't anything like it used to be. Over that is just fluff. With my current issues Silver is about as high as I'm doing unless it's a J Custom because most of the ball end needs to be shaved off from shrinking necks unless you hopefully get a winter build. But Silver on anything stainless is a problem, it's just too much work getting it polished back enough for me to be happy with it. Bronze is guaranteed to play clean so if it needs a spot level here or there, or some guitars actually need a full level to true up, it gets done, you just don't get the crowning and polishing and rest of the work you'd automatically get with Silver.
> 
> I don't hate stainless, it works easy enough with the new tools, but is very difficult to polish unless by machine and I have my own issues there..... So I'm picking and choosing what I do on what. I'm not doing any Platinum packages on Genesis models, unless you've bought 10 guitars from me before, I'll take the extra time. And I prefer not to do Silver on anything stainless unless you realize the frets are not going to have great polish on them after, except the playing surface. The sides will be dull and slightly scratchy, I take them to 1200 and 4aught and that's it any more. Maybe someday I'll try those eraser looking polishing doohickies and see if they work any better on stainless. Maybe.



The "fret erasers" are pretty nice for spot work, even on stainless, but doing anything more than that is something of a chore. By that point I just throw the small buff and polish attachments on the Foredom and rock n' roll.


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## Ibanez Rules (Jan 16, 2021)

Thanks Max. That creates so much heat I've always stayed away from them. Now the 10" wheels I'd just run lots of passes. one pass, next fret, one pass, next fret, but have to do that 3 times to get the level of polish but still keep the amount of heat down. And then run the toning wheel after. But I just can't get my head around firing that thing up again!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2021)

Ibanez Rules said:


> Thanks Max. That creates so much heat I've always stayed away from them. Now the 10" wheels I'd just run lots of passes. one pass, next fret, one pass, next fret, but have to do that 3 times to get the level of polish but still keep the amount of heat down. And then run the toning wheel after. But I just can't get my head around firing that thing up again!



I hear you, it does get HOT. I usually switch between a couple different handpieces, they have nice quick-change ones now.


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## Ibanez Rules (Jan 16, 2021)

It's the heat that melts the glue though. You spend all that time getting everything perfect and take the risk of the heat letting the frets move. Why I'd just use so many passes with the wheel. You'd get great polish but it takes a long time, and cleaning up all the residue around the fret ends adds just another job. And on nickel the tops would just get torn up play testing anyway. Steel kills nickel and you'll never realize it as much as you do when you have them at mirror polish. 6000 micro mesh you can play test and the strings won't tear the tops up but on mirrors they will.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2021)

I've never had a problem, on nickel or steel. Though, I can see getting bit.


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