# PLEK vs Luthier recommendation



## domsch1988 (May 5, 2017)

Hey everyone,

soon my Epi LP Custom will probably need new frets. I leveled them myself three times (with ok'ish results) but i feel there isn't enough material left on some frets for another round.

First of, i know that refretting the Guitar costs probably more than the instrument is worth. But since it's of sentimental value and still the best guitar i own tone wise i'd like to do it none the less.

Now, there are basically two options. I can search for a good luthier in my area (no idea if there are some. Input is welcome ) or go with the PLEK Service thomann offers.
Most luthiers don't seem to really put out prices for a full refret, but from my research, with a 22 fret guitar with binding prices wouldn't be too different. With Standard frets PLEK comes out to 379, with stainless frets to 415.

Would you rather go with a luthier or with the PLEK Service?


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## cardinal (May 5, 2017)

PLEK is not itself a refret. So if you think the guitar needs an actual refret, you'll need to add that to the cost of the PLEK. 

I recently had fretwork done on a few seemingly identical basses. One was PLEK'd by a local shop and two had fretwork done by my favorite luthier. They all came back great, but IMHO the hand-done fretwork seemed a bit better. Those basses seem to be able to squeak out a bit lower action and straighter neck before any buzz. But really the PLEK did well. 

But not all luthiers and PLEK operators are similarly skilled. And from what I understand, PLEK has limits to the amount of material it can remove, so if there are seriously uneven frets, it may not be capable of doing it all (it might require someone to do at least a quick level by hand for the PLEK can do its thing).


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## domsch1988 (May 5, 2017)

cardinal said:


> PLEK is not itself a refret. So if you think the guitar needs an actual refret, you'll need to add that to the cost of the PLEK.
> 
> I recently had fretwork done on a few seemingly identical basses. One was PLEK'd by a local shop and two had fretwork done by my favorite luthier. They all came back great, but IMHO the hand-done fretwork seemed a bit better. Those basses seem to be able to squeak out a bit lower action and straighter neck before any buzz. But really the PLEK did well.
> 
> But not all luthiers and PLEK operators are similarly skilled. And from what I understand, PLEK has limits to the amount of material it can remove, so if there are seriously uneven frets, it may not be capable of doing it all (it might require someone to do at least a quick level by hand for the PLEK can do its thing).



The prices for Plek include a refret  Leveling alone is cheaper. Those prices are refret, PLEK and material included.

My problem is that i'm sure a good tech or luthier can surpass the PLEK performance. But i'm not sure on how to find one  It's easy to screw up a guitar on refretting it. And i'm not really confident in spending 300 to see if the tech is any good 
I could tak my RG8 as a guinea pig  It needs a leveling without refretting. Should be cheaper and a guitar i don't care for so much. See how it comes back and send in the LP after that


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## Lemonbaby (May 5, 2017)

domsch1988 said:


> The prices for Plek include a refret  Leveling alone is cheaper. Those prices are refret, PLEK and material included.
> 
> My problem is that i'm sure a good tech or luthier can surpass the PLEK performance. But i'm not sure on how to find one  It's easy to screw up a guitar on refretting it. And i'm not really confident in spending 300 to see if the tech is any good



You run the same risk with Thomann, as the refretting is done by hand and removing the old frets is the critical step in this process. I honestly believe though that a PLEK serviced guitar (if done right) will surpass the result of a luthier.


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## domsch1988 (May 5, 2017)

Lemonbaby said:


> You run the same risk with Thomann, as the refretting is done by hand and removing the old frets is the critical step in this process. I honestly believe though that a PLEK serviced guitar (if done right) will surpass the result of a luthier.



That's good to know 
I send mails to some luthiers that are near me. I'll see what pricing they come up with.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 5, 2017)

If you invest the time into defining exactly what you want out of a PLEK setup, then it will absolutely exceed the precision of any luthier. It's more precise, more consistently repeatable, and it makes the adjustments under full string tension, meaning the wood's little curves, twists and response to tension, are all taken into account. Luthiers can't do that. Doesn't matter how skilled the luthier is - necks move under tension, and the only way to level a fretboard is to do it with the strings off, hence, no tension. 

That doesn't mean luthiers can't obtain better results than a PLEK though. It comes down to the preferences of the player in question.

The PLEK is a machine. It does what you ask, but ultimately, you have to tell it what to do, every time it does anything (Even if that's just calling up a preset)

That's great if you know what to ask for, but most players don't - they simply ask for "low action without too much buzzing" and that's it. They don't ask for 0.2mm of string clearance over the first fret as opposed to 0.3mm, and even if they did, most players would probably just be repeating some dude's measurements from somewhere on the internet - I mean, be honest - have you ever looked up what kind of action your favourite player uses? Probably, when you were a newer player, right? And these days you probably know exactly why just copying measurements won't turn a badly set up guitar into a well set-up one. Same deal here.

Now of course, your PLEK operator will have options to set how the PLEK machine does it's work, but he still needs to make a judgement on whether he's keying in a setup/level that you'll be happy with. If he screws that up, then you'll get a bad PLEK setup. Or if he's lazy, and just tells the PLEK machine to do a basic job with the settings that make the most people happy. 

A reputable luthier has the advantage over the machine here, because even if you give him vague instructions, he's spent a lot of time working on guitars, and he can probably tell just by looking at you, and looking at the type of instrument, what sort of setup you're looking for. 

For example, I have a Squier Strat that I beat the crap out of and put really heavy strings on, and I also have shredder guitars. I can give those to the same luthier on the same day and ask for "Fret level, crown, polish and action please mate". 

He'll almost certainly give my RG550 back to me with sick low action and barely any relief in the neck because he knows what the guitar is good at and what it's for. He'll probably give the strat back to me with more relief and a higher action, because he knows I'll be hitting that guitar a lot harder.

If you've been using the same tech for a while, this goes twofold, because the tech will learn, for example, that you prefer a slightly higher action than most shredders. Or you'll mention that the Strat you just gave him is for getting "Those SRV sounds" and he'll know how to interpret that information to get you a guitar that's closer to the ideal for those things.








A PLEK operator can do all of the same things, and it IS the superior option if the operator knows you, knows your guitars, and knows what he's doing. But that's no guarantee. Mike Brawer has a PLEK machine and I'm damn sure he uses it to the absolute utmost of it's capability. Some random guy who works for Thomann, I'm not so sure on.

That all said however - a bad PLEK will still be infinitely more playable than a guitar molested by a bad Luthier, so you can't go too far wrong with the PLEK option.


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## cardinal (May 5, 2017)

The hardest trick is finding someone how cares enough to do it right. An underpaid and under-appreciated PLEK operator could just chuck the guitar in there and call it done. A sloppy and uncaring luthier could be even worse, especially since they wouldn't be connected to a large employer like Thomann that can protect you. 

Thomann's PLEK probably is the safer bet, especially if you can find good reviews. But I my direct experience, I have been happier with a hand-done fret job than a PLEK. But I trust that luthier because he's done many projects for me. But I had to go through a few to find one that can do a consistently high level of work. That's the hard part.


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## TedEH (May 5, 2017)

The last time I had work done on one of my guitars, they guy I went to basically said that if you take the time to really learn the PLEK machine, and what it does, and why you would want to set it up in particular ways, etc., then it absolutely can exceed the work they can do by hand. The trick is that you need the person doing this to still be a good guitar tech, and a good PLEK operator on top of that. AND you need to have established what you're looking for in the results.

There's only one PLEK machine in Ottawa as far as I know, but they guy running it knows what he's doing. We had a good discussion about how the machine works, and what I wanted to get out of the process, as well as what steps still needed to be done by hand, etc. I was very satisfied with the results.

IMO I would find a person with a good reputation to bring your guitar to, regardless of the PLEK being involved.


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## Lorcan Ward (May 5, 2017)

Fretwork is the number one thing on a guitar for me so I shipped one of my guitars to England to get a stainless steel re-fret from Feline Guitars, it was quite expensive since the shipping back and forth put it up a lot but I wanted it done right by one of the best in the business in my experience.

PLEK doesn't interest me at all since there are a ton of other factors aside from getting the frets level that make it a good fret job, getting them level is the easy part. I know a number of techs that regularly have to touch up PLEK work, most noticeably touching up bad fret ends and polishing the frets properly.


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## domsch1988 (May 5, 2017)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Fretwork is the number one thing on a guitar for me so I shipped one of my guitars to England to get a stainless steel re-fret from Feline Guitars, it was quite expensive since the shipping back and forth put it up a lot but I wanted it done right by one of the best in the business in my experience.
> 
> PLEK doesn't interest me at all since there are a ton of other factors aside from getting the frets level that make it a good fret job, getting them level is the easy part. I know a number of techs that regularly have to touch up PLEK work, most noticeably touching up bad fret ends and polishing the frets properly.



That's all great, but how did you find the best in business?  My Problem is that, any research on this subject for my area leads to forum threads from 10 years ago or luthiers web pages. Most Information is in the form of posts like "Yeah, had him do a guitar. Came out good. Would recommend". That's not particularly helpfull...


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## domsch1988 (May 10, 2017)

Just a little Update:
I just brought my RG8 to Phantom Guitars in Cologne. They'll be doing a setup, polish up the frets and see what else needs to be done.
The tech said nothing major wrong with the guitar. I'll report back once i have it back and see what it play like.

Also, for refretting my LP he quoted 350. Another Luthier quoted 250 plus 50 for a new nut. I'll see which of those i'll bring my baby to next month (when new money rolls in )


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## domsch1988 (May 12, 2017)

Two days later i've got my baby back 

i haven't had time to give her a proper whirl (work sucks ) but i'd like to share some first impressions and talk a bit about the whole experience.

First of, bringing the guitar to phantom guitars was a unique experience for me. I've never before been in a professional luthiers workshop. The unique smell and all those bodys and necks all over the place make for a really nice environment. The luthier himself is a bit quirky but a honest and easy to deal with guy.
He took a look at the guitar, said the overall setup was already "decent", a played it a bit. We agreed on changing the screws on the saddles as they poked out, a general setup and polishing the frets (which where in less than ideal condition from my leveling job ). Seems i got the frets leveled fine but the finish was... lacking.

Things that got me concerned a bit where, that he did not really ask about my playing style or my setup preferences. Also, on my question whether he has strings for an 8 string or if i should provide some, he said the strings on it where fine (which is true) and didn't need changing. This left me feeling a bit strange, but i thought i'd just trust him and let him do his work however he pleases.

Today i was able to collect the lady. I think 2 days for all we agreed on is a decent time. I expected it to be longer.When i came there, he handed me the guitar and watched really closely on what and how i played. After that he readjusted the action a tiny bit up and the pickup a bit down. I was really impressed with the outcome. The polish of the frets is way above every other guitar i own or have ever played. Even the mayones and music mans i played in stores don't come close  He even rounded the fret ends over which he didn't initially say was needed.
I have no clue how he did it, but from first impressions, this was the first time the 8th string was really playable to me. In comparison to my setup, the action went down quite a bit, jet there is way less buzz across the neck! He refiled the Nut for the slightly bigger strings i have on (9-80). 

In the end he asked 110&#8364;, which i find expensive but if the setup holds up to my first impressions when i'm at home, this should be well invested money  I'll make sure to report back when i have had some hours to play with the new setup.


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## TedEH (May 12, 2017)

^ Super weird that the setup didn't involve new strings. Seems like old strings would be the first thing to go unless you literally put them on a day or two before.

I'd definitely believe that a pretty much any guitar with a proper setup can potentially feel better than any non-setup in-the-store guitar almost regardless of the price/quality level otherwise.

Given the way you described the experience, I'd try a different place next time just to see the difference. The guy I went to last did good work on the instrument but also made the experience feel worthwhile with the little details. New strings were obvious. The trem got taken apart and cleaned. Nut height was adjusted. I got a tour of the place and a demo of the PLEK machine. We had a good conversation ahead of time about his process and my expectations. I think all of that goes a long way towards both getting the result you want, but also getting a lot of value out of the experience.


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## domsch1988 (May 12, 2017)

TedEH said:


> ^ Super weird that the setup didn't involve new strings. Seems like old strings would be the first thing to go unless you literally put them on a day or two before.
> 
> I'd definitely believe that a pretty much any guitar with a proper setup can potentially feel better than any non-setup in-the-store guitar almost regardless of the price/quality level otherwise.
> 
> Given the way you described the experience, I'd try a different place next time just to see the difference. The guy I went to last did good work on the instrument but also made the experience feel worthwhile with the little details. New strings were obvious. The trem got taken apart and cleaned. Nut height was adjusted. I got a tour of the place and a demo of the PLEK machine. We had a good conversation ahead of time about his process and my expectations. I think all of that goes a long way towards both getting the result you want, but also getting a lot of value out of the experience.


I put the strings on a week ago. Maybe 2 hours playtime, so it's fine for me. I just thought it was a bit strange. I'm all for sustainability and not throwing away fine things. Also, i'm getting new strings on saturday anyways, so 

And yes, i agree that the whole experience felt a bit "cold"... Since i've been quoted for refretting my guitar from another luthier already, i'm going to go with him next month and see how the experience differs


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## cardinal (May 12, 2017)

Sounds like it went well to me. No reason to replace brand new strings. He probably thought he was doing you a favor not having to charge another $10-$15 for strings. 

And level frets are level frets. He doesn't really need to know how you play. He did what I would have: set it up for very low action and raised it up if it seemed like that'd be better for how you played.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 13, 2017)

TedEH said:


> ^ Super weird that the setup didn't involve new strings. Seems like old strings would be the first thing to go unless you literally put them on a day or two before.



It's easier and faster to setup guitars with non-new, already stretched strings. 

With such a fast turn around, it's pretty much a given, especially if he's going to observe the player and do some tweaking. 

Using the original strings removes a variable. 

Whenever working on guitars I always use the original strings, unless they're absolutely trashed. 

New strings are only new for so long. The majority of the string's life is in the used state, of course, so working with them will give you a better idea of how the guitar is going to respond for the majority of the time. 

New strings can be installed after everything is squared away and the customer is already happy with the setup. Really, the setup should be fine unless the customer is going to a different gauge and tuning.


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## diagrammatiks (May 14, 2017)

I mean he's a tech not your therapist. He's done thousands of set ups. You don't have to tell him everything I order for him to make the guitar good.


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## domsch1988 (May 14, 2017)

Thanks guys. All the input is highly appreciated!
Seems everyone is looking for slightly different things in a tech...

After giving the guitar a proper workout yesterday, i can say that i'm massively happy! The guitar never played better and i'm starting to get the 8 string thing now. It's impressive what a professional setup can change in a guitar.

This experience made it clear, that getting my trusty LP "fixed" is a much better investment than getting a new guitar now. So, when the next paycheck rolls in, i'll be getting new frets on my Paula.

I'm now debating Nickel vs. Stainless. I feel that stainless might be the better investment long term, but i have had no guitars with stainless steel frets and fear they will feel completely different... Any thoughts?
Oh, stainless frets will be about 60&#8364; more expensive. This doesn't really matter though


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## Lemons (May 14, 2017)

Stainless frets are awesome, worth the up-charge.


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## diagrammatiks (May 14, 2017)

No reason not to go stainless.


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## TheTrooper (May 14, 2017)

SS frets are far superior to standard frets, go with SS IMHO, they're worth the upcharge.

Plek is great, but only if the fretwork is done right; by itself, Plek is nothing, great fretjob and Plek is AWESOME (That's how Suhr does it)


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## Señor Voorhees (May 14, 2017)

Stainless feels no different, other than the fact that they don't wear out and get gritty NEARLY as easy. They stay shiny much longer too. I definitely recommend them 100% of the time if they're an option.


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## KnightBrolaire (May 14, 2017)

stainless is worth it just for the durability. Not that nickel frets are bad, they just don't hold up quite as well, especially if you play the guitar very frequently.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 14, 2017)

Go for stainless.


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## Lorcan Ward (May 14, 2017)

I've been really busy with work the last few months and its great to be able to pick up a guitar I haven't played in ages to find the frets are exactly the same as the first time I picked it up. The pros far outweigh the expense.


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## Rachmaninoff (May 14, 2017)

Stainless steel frets forever. I'll never play anything else.


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## domsch1988 (May 15, 2017)

Ok, i guess stainless it is then


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## marcwormjim (May 15, 2017)

Does anyone remember the thread that guy made to warn everyone to stay away from stainless frets because they made him forget how to play guitar? Like, he claimed he would accidentally bend strings two steps too sharp when trying to vibrato, and that he was angry because it was his second custom build with stainless frets and he had a third on the way? And people would ask him why he didn't have the same complaints about the previous guitar, and he'd just reply that they were missing his point? And it went on for several pages of people honestly trying to figure out what was going on?

I think of that thread any time nickel vs stainless comes up; and it makes me question my mental health.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 15, 2017)

I remember that thread. That guy was an idiot.


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## ElysianGuitars (May 15, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> If you invest the time into defining exactly what you want out of a PLEK setup, then it will absolutely exceed the precision of any luthier. It's more precise, more consistently repeatable, and *it makes the adjustments under full string tension*, meaning the wood's little curves, twists and response to tension, are all taken into account. *Luthiers can't do that.* Doesn't matter how skilled the luthier is - necks move under tension, and the only way to level a fretboard is to do it with the strings off, hence, no tension.



This isn't true, there are tools available to put that tension on the neck. Like this one:

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tool...ar_Building_and_Repair/Erlewine_Neck_Jig.html

That's the same thing the Plek machine does, it just does it with the guitar in a vertical orientation instead of horizontal.

Pleks don't do anything magical though, they just make it more repeatable. Any luthier can do as good a job as a Plek machine if they have the skill.


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## Petar Bogdanov (May 15, 2017)

If you can deal with a fretjob done under 5/6ths or 6/7ths of tension, the Katana system can get you very PLEK-like correction powers. Basically, it carves a perfect curve into the frets under tension, one string path at a time.


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