# B0 drop tuning. Is 30" sufficient for good intonation?



## luca9583 (Dec 10, 2010)

Would a 30" scale be sufficient for getting accurate intonation with a low B0 tuning (equivalent to the low B of a 5 string bass)?

Also, if a 34" scale would be better, would the 34" scale make the higher strings sound too stiff?

Do fanned fret/multi scale necks produce better tone in general because each tuning/string has an optimum scale?

The guitar i have in mind would be a 7 string guitar tuned a whole octave lower.


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## Customisbetter (Dec 10, 2010)

If I were you Id look at the Custom Conklin 7s. They will cost a metric fuckton, but if its a tool required to make your music, its worth the investment.


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## Winspear (Dec 10, 2010)

_Would a 30" scale be sufficient for getting accurate intonation with a low B0 tuning (equivalent to the low B of a 5 string bass)?_

An 100-110 gauge should do you just fine. No less than 95 I'd say.

_Also, if a 34" scale would be better, would the 34" scale make the higher strings sound too stiff?_

A 90-95 gauge on this scale length would give similar tension to what I suggested above (No less than 85). I think the high strings would sound really quite nice. It's preference.

_Do fanned fret/multi scale necks produce better tone in general because each tuning/string has an optimum scale?_

Yes. 

_The guitar i have in mind would be a 7 string guitar tuned a whole octave lower._

 I'd go maybe 32" with a 95 gauge. I think this would be a nice combination of a not TOO thick string and scale length to keep a guitar-like tone.


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 10, 2010)

If you're going to tune that low just get a frigging bass.


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

Top OP, yes it does intonate at the 30" scale, depending on your string gauge choice, Im using a .135 for my B0 at 30.2" 11 string with no issues.
I even have a .175 tuned to F#0 that intonates with no issues, but for that one I had to shorten the saddle a bit.


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> If you're going to tune that low just get a frigging bass.



Different string spacing, scale length and electronics. If he wants more of a guitar sounding B0 than bass and for it to still be playable like a guitar than having a 30" scale guitar is a better choice.


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## luca9583 (Dec 10, 2010)

Adam said:


> Different string spacing, scale length and electronics. If he wants more of a guitar sounding B0 than bass and for it to still be playable like a guitar than having a 30" scale guitar is a better choice.



Hey Adam! Exactly. It's all about getting a guitar sounding B0, not a bass sounding B0. 

(By the way, that was me asking the questions about your 11 string on youtube today..really eager to hear your updated guitar!!!)

I wonder what gauge string Meshuggah used for the A0 and Bb0 on Spasm?


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## Winspear (Dec 10, 2010)

Incase you don't know about it already, check out String Guage and Tension Calculator - Version 0.1.4 - 26 apr 1998

It's a very handy tool for times like these. Here's some gauges I put together for a similar feel to standard 7 string 25.5", an octave down at 30".

len 25.5"

E4 .010 PL == 16.21#
B3 .013 PL == 15.38#
G3 .018 PL == 18.58#
D3 .028 NW == 21.3#
A2 .038 NW == 21.58#
E2 .048 NW == 18.93#
B1 .062 NW == 18.15#

len 30"

E3 .019 NW == 17.6#
B2 .024 NW == 15.43#
G2 .034 NW == 19.34#
D2 .048 NW == 20.8#
A1 .062 NW == 19.94#
E1 .080 NW == 18.21#
B0 .110 NW == 17.18#


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

luca9583 said:


> Hey Adam! Exactly. It's all about getting a guitar sounding B0, not a bass sounding B0.
> 
> (By the way, that was me asking the questions about your 11 string on youtube today..really eager to hear your updated guitar!!!)
> 
> I wonder what gauge string Meshuggah used for the A0 and Bb0 on Spasm?



Thanks, I'm paying off a Laney amp with a 1x15 and a tweeter, its the only amp I've tried out that can capture and reproduce the full range of my guitar wonderfully that I have tried. I want to use that amp for the video so it will be a couple of weeks yet.


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## luca9583 (Dec 10, 2010)

EtherealEntity said:


> Incase you don't know about it already, check out String Guage and Tension Calculator - Version 0.1.4 - 26 apr 1998
> 
> It's a very handy tool for times like these. Here's some gauges I put together for a similar feel to standard 7 string 25.5", an octave down at 30".
> 
> ...



Nice one..that makes a lot of sense!


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 10, 2010)

Didn't Ibanez make some sort of bass/guitar hybrid thing? That might be worth looking into as you could save yourself from some royal pains in the ass.


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## LLink2411 (Dec 10, 2010)

A 5-string Bass is tuned to B1. B0 is an octave lower than that.


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## luca9583 (Dec 10, 2010)

Stealthtastic said:


> Didn't Ibanez make some sort of bass/guitar hybrid thing? That might be worth looking into as you could save yourself from some royal pains in the ass.



Yeah the Ibanez SR7VIISC

I wonder if i could get that to sound like a guitar with lighter strings and guitar pickups.


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> A 5-string Bass is tuned to B1. B0 is an octave lower than that.



B1 is a 7 string guitars low B, B0 is a 5 string bass's B.


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## Winspear (Dec 10, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> A 5-string Bass is tuned to B1. B0 is an octave lower than that.



Different naming conventions. The more 'scientific' Hz based numbering doesn't go below 0 (16Hz C0) as opposed to the 'musical' C-1.



luca9583 said:


> Yeah the Ibanez SR7VIISC
> 
> I wonder if i could get that to sound like a guitar with lighter strings and guitar pickups.



Well it has your desired tuning and scale length. I'm guessing the strings they put on it have tighter more bass like tension, no problem to change. The nut dimensions etc. are standard. Looks very ideal to me...Pickups would be my only concern.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 10, 2010)

Look into it a little more, maybe start a separate thread on it, grab some more input from the the whole community then go for it. Videos when you do it, I'm very curios to hear the result..as well as what pickups you'd end up using.


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## Winspear (Dec 10, 2010)

Sounds nice to me. The top is pretty guitar-like, it's just the bass strings. Lighter gauges would sort a lot of that, and I'd bet it's being played through a bass amp.


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## luca9583 (Dec 10, 2010)

Stealthtastic said:


> Look into it a little more, maybe start a separate thread on it, grab some more input from the the whole community then go for it. Videos when you do it, I'm very curios to hear the result..as well as what pickups you'd end up using.



Cool. I've started another thread here:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...k-les-paul-6-string-9-string.html#post2246337

The idea is a double neck instrument of some sort


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## LLink2411 (Dec 10, 2010)

Adam said:


> B1 is a 7 string guitars low B, B0 is a 5 string bass's B.


A seven string has a Low B2 brohaim. Trust me.


A B0 is one half-step lower than the lowest key on a Piano (C1). You would not even be able to hear a note that stupidly low (or at least hear it as more than speaker feedback). I actually have seen synths able to create notes in the lowest octave, and it sounds like a thud instead of a note (which is what passes for notes in some metal these days).

There actually is a Bass that is tuned C#1 F#1 B1 E2 (called a sub-contra Bass made for session player and solo artist Jaquo-XIII), but that Bass was just created to see if it could be done and is rarely used.


Edit: I actually just tried to go below C1 in guitar pro and it just crashed XD


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> A seven string has a Low B2 brohaim. Trust me.
> 
> 
> A B0 is one half-step lower than the lowest key on a Piano (C1). You would not even be able to hear a note that stupidly low (or at least hear it as more than speaker feedback). I actually have seen synths able to create notes in the lowest octave, and it sounds like a thud instead of a note (which is what passes for notes in some metal these days).
> ...



The lowest key on any 88 key piano is A0, here in North America the guitars low B is B1, and the low B on the Bass is B0.
http://obiaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/frequency_chart_lg.gif

EDIT: No wonder, you are using GUitar Pro, that and power tab,tux guitar all use that system, some of those are European so that may explain it, but everyone else uses the normal method.


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## LLink2411 (Dec 10, 2010)

EDIT: I wasn't insulting him, stop neg-repping me. This post was a joke *rolls eyes*


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> That is a very interesting chart, I find it kind of funny actually.
> 
> I suppose this is a pointless argument after all, but feel free to consider yourself the winner here and masturbate accordingly.



Very mature, just for fun though try ordering some custom strings and when they ask you the pitch you want tell them with what you believe and see the results.


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## LLink2411 (Dec 10, 2010)

If I was having some custom strings made, I would go by string gauge, not pitch.

And wouldn't it also depend on where I order these magical made-to-pitch strings from and what system they use?


Again though, pointless argument. Can we stop please?


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## Adam (Dec 10, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> If I was having some custom strings made, I would go by string gauge, not pitch.
> 
> And wouldn't it also depend on where I order these magical made-to-pitch strings from and what system they use?
> 
> ...



Octave4plus.com


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## LLink2411 (Dec 10, 2010)

I see. Well when the need for such specific strings comes, I will go there.

I am thinking of getting a six-string short-scale Bass built, I suppose that place will be helpful in choosing strings.


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## Evil7 (Dec 10, 2010)

Im sure you know this but, you can have lighter strings with a longer sale neck and still have good string tension in low tunings. 

I would advise fan frets as well so your higher strings are on less tension.


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## Hollowway (Dec 11, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> That is a very interesting chart, I find it kind of funny actually. But yeah, I like the European system better.
> 
> I suppose this is a pointless argument after all, but feel free to consider yourself the winner here and masturbate accordingly.


 
 Dude, don't make an ass of yourself. If you have a convention you use and like it fine, but no need to get defensive. Adam knows an insane amount about strings, ERGs and low tunings, and he was just trying to help you understand the posts in the thread.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 11, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> Dude, don't make an ass of yourself. If you have a convention you use and like it fine, but no need to get defensive. Adam knows an insane amount about strings, ERGs and low tunings, and he was just trying to help you understand the posts in the thread.



Yeah man that was totally uncalled for. Adam is super helpful and is easily one of the more knowledgeable guys about crazy ERG stuff. There's no need to insult him, he wasn't even being a dick or anything


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## LLink2411 (Dec 11, 2010)

Hollowway said:


> Dude, don't make an ass of yourself. If you have a convention you use and like it fine, but no need to get defensive. Adam knows an insane amount about strings, ERGs and low tunings, and he was just trying to help you understand the posts in the thread.





Stealthtastic said:


> Yeah man that was totally uncalled for. Adam is super helpful and is easily one of the more knowledgeable guys about crazy ERG stuff. There's no need to insult him, he wasn't even being a dick or anything


So now I know who is neg-repping me.

Anyways, I know I was disagreeing with him, but where the hell was I insulting him? Was it the masturbation thing? I honestly thought that is what you people do when you win arguments on the internet? I guess I was wrong.

Oh, and apparently since all of you can't seem to read between the lines, I was joking *rolls eyes*.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Dec 11, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> So now I know who is neg-repping me.
> 
> Anyways, I know I was disagreeing with him, but where the hell was I insulting him? Was it the masturbation thing? I honestly thought that is what you people do when you win arguments on the internet? I guess I was wrong.
> 
> Oh, and apparently since all of you can't seem to read between the lines, I was joking *rolls eyes*.



I actually didn't neg you


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## LLink2411 (Dec 11, 2010)

You might as well join the party.

But anyways, sorry for insulting you guys because you thought I was insulting someone... or something. I'm not entirely sure what is going on here to be honest.


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## luca9583 (Dec 11, 2010)

Adam said:


> Top OP, yes it does intonate at the 30" scale, depending on your string gauge choice, Im using a .135 for my B0 at 30.2" 11 string with no issues.
> I even have a .175 tuned to F#0 that intonates with no issues, but for that one I had to shorten the saddle a bit.



So am i correct in thinking that all of the above tunings would be possible on any guitar that has a 30" scale? (eg Agile 730)


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## Adam (Dec 11, 2010)

luca9583 said:


> So am i correct in thinking that all of the above tunings would be possible on any guitar that has a 30" scale? (eg Agile 730)



Well yes, but F#0-G#0 can be a bit tricky on the 30" scale, as I mentioned I had to shorten my saddle quite a bit just so it would intonate. B0 should work with no issues, but I have a lot of intonation room on my bridge now.

I know Variant here has had success with G0 on his 28.625" steinberg, if the instrument you are referring to is one of the double locking tremolo models you may not have enough range but with that 30" scale you could pull it off with the right string gauge.


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## Hollowway (Dec 12, 2010)

Yeah, and you should consider using Octave4Plus for the low string, too. Everyone knows about Garry's A4, but not many people think of him for low strings, but he does that, too. He's doing the C#1 for the 30" 10 string Tom Drinkwater is building for me, and he's making it to sound like a guitar rather than a bass. Mind you, he won't give you advice on which scale length to buy, which can be sort of frustrating, but for a given length and pitch he can build you a string to meet your needs.


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## LLink2411 (Dec 15, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> I see. Well when the need for such specific strings comes, I will go there.
> 
> I am thinking of getting a six-string short-scale Bass built, I suppose that place will be helpful in choosing strings.


I even got neg-repped for this post


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 15, 2010)

Neg-rep happens, just let it be. If you have a legit issue PM a Mod. Bitching about it on the forum is sooooooo 2008.


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## Variant (Dec 15, 2010)

Adam said:


> Well yes, but F#0-G#0 can be a bit tricky on the 30" scale, as I mentioned I had to shorten my saddle quite a bit just so it would intonate. B0 should work with no issues, but I have a lot of intonation room on my bridge now.
> 
> I know Variant here has had success with G0 on his 28.625" steinberg, if the instrument you are referring to is one of the double locking tremolo models you may not have enough range but with that 30" scale you could pull it off with the right string gauge.



Yeah, I'd say the G0 is a little on the sloppy side, though... it was good enough to get the multisamples for the sampler which is how we're deploying this stuff... and that's all that matters.  

That said, the .125 is much more playable @ A0, and it or a .120 would be _*VERY*_ workable on this scale for a B0, IMHO. 




> Neg-rep happens, just let it be. If you have a legit issue PM a Mod. Bitching about it on the forum is sooooooo 2008.



This.  

And Adam is agonizingly right about _*B0*_. It's the standard 30.87 Hz fundamental on a good ol' six string bass. *B00* would be an octave lower than that, (15.435 Hz). One thing that confuses people is that the octave numbers change between B and C, _*not*_ G and A. 

That said, for a real B00, I'd recommend a very long scale like Skip's Knuckle basses offer or a Ned Steinberger upright, _*and*_ a very big string from Garry Goodman. Other options include: A tone generator / sub-synth kind of thing... _*or*_ wait until my band finishes our "Marianas Bench" project in which we will be making a Kontakt ready multisample library of subcontra notes taken from strings stretched across quite unplayable scale lengths.


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## Samarus (Dec 20, 2010)

I wonder when we guitarists will hit a wall of lowness in pitch xD


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## Eric Christian (Dec 20, 2010)

Please, while were on the subject maybe Adam or any of you other knowledgeable people answer me a couple of questions? So I guy in my city has an Agile Interceptor Pro 727 with EMG's & a licensed Floyd for sale at a reasonable price ($450). 

First question is the 27 inch scale length enough to tune down a whole octave from a normal six string to E Standard tuning? I know the saddle blocks on the Floyd on my Jackson SLAT3-7 don't clamp down very well on any string over 060 so that might be an issue as well. 

Anyway, so yeah second question. If the 27 inch scale length wouldn't be enough on a 7 string would it be enough on an 8 string or does it make a difference? Reason I ask is because my buddy has an LTD 8 string which has a 25.5 inch scale length and he down tuned it to E Standard and its not flabby or buzzy at all.

After all that maybe I'll have to order a Interceptor Pro 830 to get to E Standard...


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## luca9583 (Dec 20, 2010)

Eric Christian said:


> Please, while were on the subject maybe Adam or any of you other knowledgeable people answer me a couple of questions? So I guy in my city has an Agile Interceptor Pro 727 with EMG's & a licensed Floyd for sale at a reasonable price ($450).
> 
> First question is the 27 inch scale length enough to tune down a whole octave from a normal six string to E Standard tuning? I know the saddle blocks on the Floyd on my Jackson SLAT3-7 don't clamp down very well on any string over 060 so that might be an issue as well.
> 
> ...



If you are tuning an octave down from E standard, i think the general consensus on this forum is that you need a 30" scale for optimum tension and intonation. The tone in the low end is much tighter at the 30" scale.


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## josh pelican (Dec 20, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> If you're going to tune that low just get a frigging bass.



If he wanted to play bass, he would.

If you ever want a bassist to play along that low, send me a message. I'm setting a bass up for E0, but the lower the better! 

EDIT:


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## Antimatter (Dec 20, 2010)

Samarus said:


> I wonder when we guitarists will hit a wall of lowness in pitch xD


 
Not until it isn't audible, and then I'll get a very expensive experimental operation on my ears so I can hear those frequencies, and then go lower still.


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## luca9583 (Dec 20, 2010)

Samarus said:


> I wonder when we guitarists will hit a wall of lowness in pitch xD



Lol! It all depends on what is actually audible. For example A0 is much easier to "hear" than F#0, even though they are only a few semitones apart.

As soon as you start to lose the definition of the actual note..that's where the limit is i think.

This also brings another point to mind..that on typical 8 string guitars with shorter scales (shorter than 30"), there can be a lot of unwanted oscillation on the lower strings when you hit a low note simply because there isn't enough tension due to the combination of scale length and string gauge. 

Who knows, there might already be a multiscale guitar in the making that goes all the way to 34"!!!


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## Eric Christian (Dec 20, 2010)

luca9583 said:


> If you are tuning an octave down from E standard, i think the general consensus on this forum is that you need a 30" scale for optimum tension and intonation. The tone in the low end is much tighter at the 30" scale.


 
Now were heading in the right direction. Thats kinda what I was thinking. Hopefully a few other folks would be able to confirm this please. I tried the search function related to this topic but did really get anywhere with it. At this point the only 30 inch scale length 7 or 8 string I know of is the Agile. Are there any other brands?


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## ArkaneDemon (Dec 20, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> I even got neg-repped for this post



Don't worry, bro, I got neg-repped like six times for only one post that I made as a jest. ERG people are the most sensitive people I've ever met. I know the feeling of having an old-fashioned person say "who needs more than six strings, or a double pedal for drums", but there's a point where we should have stopped and we've clearly passed it. 

An octave lower than B standard? The position of the bassist in the band is pretty much made null. Not to mention how pointless it can get. Tuning lower doesn't add range. You can tune as low as you want on a six string, but does it give you more range? No, you still the same amount of frets. Adding a string gives you more range, but even that can be taken to a point where a lot of people just do a double-take and say "what the fuck".

Don't get me wrong, I love low tunings, but an _octave_ lower than B standard is really just pointless. Neg rep me all you want.


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## Durero (Dec 22, 2010)

ArkaneDemon said:


> I know the feeling of having an old-fashioned person say "who needs more than six strings, or a double pedal for drums", *but there's a point where we should have stopped* and we've clearly passed it.



I can agree with this in one specific way: we should stop when we lack the interest or imagination to make use of such tools.

It's a completely personal artistic choice and there's absolutely nothing wrong with either side of that choice  being interested or disinterested.


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## troyguitar (Dec 23, 2010)

Eric Christian said:


> First question is the 27 inch scale length enough to tune down a whole octave from a normal six string to E Standard tuning? I know the saddle blocks on the Floyd on my Jackson SLAT3-7 don't clamp down very well on any string over 060 so that might be an issue as well.
> 
> Anyway, so yeah second question. If the 27 inch scale length wouldn't be enough on a 7 string would it be enough on an 8 string or does it make a difference? Reason I ask is because my buddy has an LTD 8 string which has a 25.5 inch scale length and he down tuned it to E Standard and its not flabby or buzzy at all.
> 
> After all that maybe I'll have to order a Interceptor Pro 830 to get to E Standard...



The Floyd might be a problem, but the scale length will not. The scale length nazi's on here have decided that anything less than 30" should be eradicated, but there are plenty of us reasonable people making low tunings work just fine on shorter scales. If you know that your friend's 25.5" LTD is fine at E, then you can feel free to ignore the idiots on here who will tell you that a <30" scale is unacceptable for that tuning.


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## MF_Kitten (Dec 25, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbnh84aNn1Y

4:10 and out: me tuning down to B0 with the rest of the 8 string tuned in standard, making it basically a 7 string with an octave down string to double the low B 

that's with a .75 on a 30" scale


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## luca9583 (Dec 25, 2010)

MF_Kitten said:


> 4:10 and out: me tuning down to B0 with the rest of the 8 string tuned in standard, making it basically a 7 string with an octave down string to double the low B
> 
> that's with a .75 on a 30" scale




Great video. I have to say it's one of the very few 8 string videos out there with a great tone and sound quality. The drop low E and D tunings sound excellent here.

The B0 sounds really good when the open string is played..but then the intonation soon goes out up the neck due to the string being, in theory, too light for the low tuning.

It's obvious from this video that with a 30" scale, it's totally possible to make B0 sound good.

Mofokitten, have you tried experimenting with thicker strings for the low tunings?


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## iron blast (Dec 25, 2010)

LLink2411 said:


> A seven string has a Low B2 brohaim. Trust me.
> 
> 
> A B0 is one half-step lower than the lowest key on a Piano (C1). You would not even be able to hear a note that stupidly low (or at least hear it as more than speaker feedback). I actually have seen synths able to create notes in the lowest octave, and it sounds like a thud instead of a note (which is what passes for notes in some metal these days).
> ...


No offense but you sir are deadwrong about Jaquo's four string sub contra bass not being used often. I happen to know Jaquo My good freind is currentlty taking lessons with him and and uses that bass quite frequently. I will also say that Yves carbone is playing a 12 string non octave fretless bass that uses a Bo string and its audible and that is on bass wich is much lower than guitar. You just have to know how to eq properly and have a decent rig.


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## Samarus (Jan 4, 2011)

Antimatter said:


> Not until it isn't audible, and then I'll get a very expensive experimental operation on my ears so I can hear those frequencies, and then go lower still.


Well said, well said


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## VariedStyles (Jan 4, 2011)

Unless I misread something...
C0 D0 E0 F0 G0 A0 *B0 *C1 
...how cannot that exist in scientific notation?

Also, +1 to the 7th string on a 7 string being B1. E2 is the normal guitar 6th string. What's written as middle C in guitar notation IS NOT C4 (=middle C), it's C3. The real C4 is written as C5. And this shit is there, unaccounted for and irreparable, in Guitar Pro >_<


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## Jauqo III-X (Jan 9, 2011)

LLink2411 said:


> There actually is a Bass that is tuned C#1 F#1 B1 E2 (called a sub-contra Bass made for session player and solo artist Jaquo-XIII),






LLink2411 said:


> but that Bass was just created to see if it could be done and is rarely used.





That bass was not at all created to see if it could be done. And it is used on a regular bassis.


The bass was conceived from an original concept that I had for such a bass. As well as the Low C# string based off of my string concept to go so low but in a practical context.


With all due respect the bass always was based off of a legitimate concept. And is not rarely used.


Here's a little history on my Sub contra bass.

1.
http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/JK_pages/JK_lowc.html


2.
The worlds firs(yes first)t sub contra bass C# F# B E ( not to be confused with what some refer to a multi string bass as). Was made for me by Kennith Loftquest and Scott Surine of Surine basses.

A lot of thought went into what I felt would be the best sounding bass for me. A bass that could actually handle the low open C# and F# evenly and clearly.

The proper body wood, neck and fingerboard woods and equally important the electronics.

The open C# is 17hz and that had to be very clear.


So some serious home work goes a long way.

I have Sub Contra basses made by Surine, Conklin and Mike Adler and they all have the same body,neck and fingerboard woods as well. And they all have single coil pickups.

The Surine, Conklin and fretted Adler all have custom Bartolini pickuos and pre's.

My fretless Adler has custom Villex pickups and an Aguilar OP-3 pre.

Here's some info on my Conklin Sub contra bass(with pic).

Post 9 of the below thread also explains why I chose the woods and electronics.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=223312

A little bit about my sub contra bass concept.

http://www.jauqoiii-x.com/JK_pages/JK_lowc.html


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## Explorer (Jan 9, 2011)

When people are talking out of their asses about someone else's motivations, it's always refreshing to get the story straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks, Jauqo!



troyguitar said:


> The scale length nazi's on here have decided that anything less than 30" should be eradicated, but there are plenty of us reasonable people making low tunings work just fine on shorter scales. If you know that your friend's 25.5" LTD is fine at E, then you can feel free to ignore the idiots on here who will tell you that a <30" scale is unacceptable for that tuning.



Thanks for stating the obvious, Troy. 

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that the majority of people who post about the impossibility of certain low tunings are just repeating what they've heard.

I'm also slowly coming to the conclusion that what they've heard has come from people who, perhaps, never thought about the effect their pickups and signal chain were having on their tone. "I couldn't make this work easily, and so my inability to make it work means that *no one* can make it work!" *laugh*

I'm lucky. I didn't take someone's word for it. That not only got me some really cool instruments, but taught me a valuable lesson about how seriously to take the "common wisdom" regarding pushing the boundaries, not just on ERGs, but across the board. 

----

Having read Jauqo's story about the excitement on the part of those who helped make his instruments a reality, I think it's worth noting that I've been lucky to have an instrument technician/luthier who has been willing to work with me whenever I've had an idea which goes outside the norm. I always acknowledge that the idea might not work, and she's comfortable with doing something which might fail. Weirdly enough, though, we haven't failed so far, and we've learned and even improved a few things along the way....


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## Jauqo III-X (Jan 9, 2011)

You're more than welcome Explorer. And again I actually use my concepts live and in the studio. I was very glad that the people who worked with me on my concepts were so open minded. That really is powerful. I remember when I was first delving into my C# string concept, kats would laugh and say that it would never work, it's a stupid idea, who needs to go that low, no one will ever be able to hear it.

But what all the naysayers didn't realize, was that this was my baby and no one elses. SO it was going to work for me. Because I believed and knew that it would.



Explorer, if you don't mind me asking. who is your tech/luthier? And can you provide me with a site link if possible?


Thanks,


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## johnythehero (Jan 9, 2011)

MF_Kitten said:


> 4:10 and out: me tuning down to B0 with the rest of the 8 string tuned in standard, making it basically a 7 string with an octave down string to double the low B
> 
> that's with a .75 on a 30" scale



at 4:55 it sounds so evil and menacing it makes me want to tune something that low


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## Explorer (Jan 9, 2011)

J., I sent you a PM. 

On topic, I like my Intrepid Pro a lot, and since I've been having success with the FM-408, I decided to special order a 25.5" Intrepid Pro dual with an ebony fretboard and active p'ups. I'm having my current Pro 28.625" altered back to a more normal tuning (I'm pretty much pulling back on full fifths usage for ERG), and since I'm feeling pretty good about how 25.5" works for low tuning, investing the money in a semi-custom makes sense. I'm still trying to figure out if I'm really getting the most out of the EMG BTC system (treble, bass, volume and *blend*, for more and clearer variation than just a p'up selector switch), or if I should just leave the electronics as is....


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