# Headless tuners in classical position, question.



## Ebony (Jun 19, 2017)

When you play a headless guitar in classical position, the tuners are digging into your thigh. 

The guitar is obviously going to move somewhat when you play no matter how still you sit, effectively meaning that you're going to massage the tuners with your thigh. 
This would presumably happen at both the end of the tuners and to some degree their sides.

What is the "obvious solution" that keeps this from being a massive problem?
Aside from not playing in classical position, obviously.


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## laxu (Jun 19, 2017)

Depends on the design of the guitar. This doesn't happen at least on Strandbergs.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 19, 2017)

doesn't happen on strandbergs. It shouldn't happen at all if the guitar is properly designed.


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## sezna (Jun 19, 2017)

Are you thinking of a Vader? I just keep my strap high enough so it hands ~1-3mm above my leg, not actually on my leg


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## Ebony (Jun 19, 2017)

sezna said:


> Are you thinking of a Vader? I just keep my strap high enough so it hands ~1-3mm above my leg, not actually on my leg



I was thinking in general, because the overwhelming majority of the designs I've seen has this situation with the tuners.
One exception is the Masvidal-model from Strandberg, where a piece of wood hits your thigh before the tuners have a chance to do the same. 

Seems the answer to my question must be that the tuners are stiff enough to resist the minimal impact from rubbing against the leg.


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## sezna (Jun 19, 2017)

Ebony said:


> I was thinking in general, because the overwhelming majority of the designs I've seen has this situation with the tuners.
> One exception is the Masvidal-model from Strandberg, where a piece of wood hits your thigh before the tuners have a chance to do the same.
> 
> Seems the answer to my question must be that the tuners are stiff enough to resist the minimal impact from rubbing against the leg.


I have a strandberg and a vader. They definitely don't go out of tune when the tuners touch my leg, but I usually just keep it high enough so that isn't an issue. Do you use a strap?


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## ixlramp (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm sure this is referring to when not using a strap.
This is a design issue that bothers me about many headless guitars.
A solution often used is a tuner cutout that cuts only halfway through the depth of the guitar.

I'm disappointed with this aspect of the Strandberg design. If you keep your legs very close together the right thigh will fit the characteristic 'extra cutout' but the guitar will be fairly horizontal unless you raise your left leg.
It's much more likely you will want to keep your legs spread a little and keep them level, in this situation the right thigh will be very close or touching the tuners if the instrument is unplugged. Also bad, the output jack exits into the tuner cutout meaning your cable is (unconfortably) resting on your right thigh under sideways pressure, this may be the only thing stopping the thigh touching the tuners:







Having different behaviours depending on plugged/unplugged is bad, players often want to casually play unplugged.

The fact that tuners are usually stiff enough to not go out of tune from this is not really a comfort, they sometimes might, and there should not be any contact as a part of good design.


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## Ebony (Jun 19, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> The fact that tuners are usually stiff enough to not go out of tune from this is not really a comfort, they sometimes might, and there should not be any contact as a part of good design.



My thoughts exactly. Tuning stability and balance are the two reasons I hear the most of when people praise the headless design. 
Having a design where you physically touch the tuners in classical position, and have to compromise comfort (and quite possibly balance) to avoid them seems backwards.


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## ixlramp (Jun 19, 2017)

Mera Guitars has this lovely design, the right thigh fits into the cutout above the tuners.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 19, 2017)

the skerveten is probably my favorite design that mitigates this. They basically just route the wood so that the tuners can be accessed, but your leg isn't resting on the tuners, just the wood (the varberg from strandberg or the chris letchford model from kiesel has a similar concept).


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## spudmunkey (Jun 19, 2017)

The Letchford Kiesel (did I just trigger everyone on this forum?  does something similar, albeit much less elegantly.


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## Grand Rabbit (Jun 19, 2017)

All I'm gonna say: Klein guitars. They might not have the classic look, but they're highly original and highly functional guitars. I'd post a picture but my computer is so slow I can't even load a new tab let alone a picture, but really, look up Klein guitars. They're the 'other solution' to classical position: designing the guitar to sit in classical by default.


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## sezna (Jun 19, 2017)

Grand Rabbit said:


> All I'm gonna say: Klein guitars. They might not have the classic look, but they're highly original and highly functional guitars. I'd post a picture but my computer is so slow I can't even load a new tab let alone a picture, but really, look up Klein guitars. They're the 'other solution' to classical position: designing the guitar to sit in classical by default.






interesting look for sure.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 19, 2017)

I'm still confused how this problem even exists on something like the Boden or the skervesen shoggie. 

If you are in classical your legs should be that close together. To get the right amount of lift your other leg should be resting on the bottom part of the upper cutout right above the tuners.


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## laxu (Jun 20, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm still confused how this problem even exists on something like the Boden or the skervesen shoggie.
> 
> If you are in classical your legs should be that close together. To get the right amount of lift your other leg should be resting on the bottom part of the upper cutout right above the tuners.



When I had a Strandberg Boden OS 8 I never experienced any issues with this and when I play sitting down I usually have the guitar sitting between my legs. Just sit with your legs wider apart and not like the dude in ixlramp's photo.


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## j3ps3 (Jun 20, 2017)

Have most of you actually played these models? Just wondering, as I own a Strandberg and have had zero issues with it and I play almost exclusively with the classical position. Sure, the tuners touch my leg but I haven't had any tuning issues and it doesn't feel uncomfortable.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 20, 2017)

laxu said:


> When I had a Strandberg Boden OS 8 I never experienced any issues with this and when I play sitting down I usually have the guitar sitting between my legs. Just sit with your legs wider apart and not like the dude in ixlramp's photo.



Dunno why you would sit like that. If you are going to sit like that you should use the other cutout and put the guitar on your other leg. That's what it's there for.


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## ixlramp (Jun 20, 2017)

The Klein has the same issue of tuners being exposed.


diagrammatiks said:


> I'm still confused how this problem even exists on something like the Boden or the skervesen shoggie.
> If you are in classical your legs should be that close together. To get the right amount of lift your other leg should be resting on the bottom part of the upper cutout right above the tuners.


 I guess you mean 'shouldn't'.


laxu said:


> Just sit with your legs wider apart and not like the dude in ixlramp's photo.


The above 2 comments miss the point, which is you should have the freedom to have your legs apart by various amounts in classical position without tuner or cable contact.
Even with you legs further apart the cable is still exiting directly towards your leg which is not ideal.


j3ps3 said:


> Sure, the tuners touch my leg but I haven't had any tuning issues and it doesn't feel uncomfortable.


Yeah tuner contact is not uncomfortable but not as nice as a warm curved wood surface.
Tuner contact may not cause retuning most of the time, but it could if the tuner is particularly easy to rotate or if detuned to a low tension. However the point is good ergonomic design would obviously avoid contact.

I've noticed that 'ergonomic guitar' is now often used in a way which implies a direct correspondance with a Klein shape, as if it is the ultimte and unimprovable. While it's good i think better is easily possible. I would like to see luthiers experimenting and doing better rather than stating 'i'm building an ergonomic guitar' and building a Klein copy.


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## Soya (Jun 20, 2017)

Ebony said:


> My thoughts exactly. Tuning stability and balance are the two reasons I hear the most of when people praise the headless design.
> Having a design where you physically touch the tuners in classical position, and have to compromise comfort (and quite possibly balance)
> to avoid them seems backwards.



Unless you file the tuners down to a needle point, they don't sacrifice comfort (and definitely not balance). It's a non issue.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 20, 2017)

The boden is pretty comfortable in a classical position, way more comfortable than if you try to play it like most electric players do. I agree that the jack placement is the least ergonomic aspect of it next to the strap pin placement, which I changed on my boden 8. Having my leg rest against the tuners is a better angle for playing classical style than the lower cutout imo. The lower cutout makes the neck more horizontal unless I use my classical footstand, and even then, I prefer having my leg rest against the tuners.


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## thinkpad20 (Jun 21, 2017)

Not a problem with my Padalka:


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## Ebony (Jun 22, 2017)

Wow, that Padalka is sexy! Love the cutaway also.


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## Ebony (Jun 22, 2017)

Soya said:


> Unless you file the tuners down to a needle point, they don't sacrifice comfort (and definitely not balance). It's a non issue.



My point about sacrificing comfort was not about the tuners being uncomfortable to have resting against your leg, I'm sure they're fine.
My point was if you want to avoid touching the tuners (on a design where you naturally touch the tuners), and you have to sit in a specific position (sacrificing comfort) to prevent them from touching.

But like many of you have pointed out, touching them doesn't really seem to matter in most practical applications.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 22, 2017)

like i said...every position on the boden is super comfortable except the one where you dig the tuners into your other leg.


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## Grand Rabbit (Jun 23, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> The Klein has the same issue of tuners being exposed.
> -
> I would like to see luthiers experimenting and doing better rather than stating 'i'm building an ergonomic guitar' and building a Klein copy.



The tuners are exposed, but this won't effect the player whatsoever when tilting the guitar up at 45 degrees, which is what it was designed for.

I do think Klein was onto something with the 45 degree angle leg rest, and it's one of the main factors which I consider to be essential for an ergonomic headless design. I guess having something to protect the tuners in some way would be another crucial factor, lightweight, and comfortable places to rest one's arm... other than that, I think it's really just personal preference, like neck shape or fanned frets.


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## ixlramp (Jun 26, 2017)

Grand Rabbit said:


> They're the 'other solution' to classical position: designing the guitar to sit in classical by default.


I'm surprised to read this, as the Klein seems to be designed specifically for non-classical position (on right thigh only), when i search through images almost none are used in classical position, and the one that is has tuner contact.
You can see how the design is meant to raise the strings up and angle them up, the large upper wing is there to support your right arm.
The thigh cutout on the bottom is shifted towrds the bridge compared to most guitars, which shifts the guitar to the left when on the right thigh, so it's like classical position when on the right thigh.


diagrammatiks said:


> To get the right amount of lift your other leg should be resting on the bottom part of the upper cutout right above the tuners.





Grand Rabbit said:


> The tuners are exposed, but this won't effect the player whatsoever when tilting the guitar up at 45 degrees, which is what it was designed for.


If in classical position to avoid tuner contact you would need your legs very wide apart, then the guitar is shifted too far to the left and the pointed part of the body above the tuners is resting on the right thigh, if that was intentional it would not be pointed, often there is a strap button there too.
The tuner cutout is obviously for tuner access and not a place to put a thigh, the steinberger type trem bridge has a trem adjustment knob there which could possibly be put out of tune.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 27, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> I'm surprised to read this, as the Klein seems to be designed specifically for non-classical position (on right thigh only), when i search through images almost none are used in classical position, and the one that is has tuner contact.
> You can see how the design is meant to raise the strings up and angle them up, the large upper wing is there to support your right arm.
> The thigh cutout on the bottom is shifted towrds the bridge compared to most guitars, which shifts the guitar to the left when on the right thigh, so it's like classical position when on the right thigh.
> 
> ...



ok.






I feel like you'd have to really be squeezing your legs closed on purpose and that doesn't seem comfortable. The top horn works fine as a leg rest.


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## ixlramp (Jun 28, 2017)

Well in my last post i was referring to the Klein design.
The Strandberg looks fine in your photo, but having a body point resting on your leg is a little awkward and not ideal for comfort or stability, the Mera Guitars design is better.


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## Grand Rabbit (Jul 4, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> I'm surprised to read this, as the Klein seems to be designed specifically for non-classical position (on right thigh only)



you're right, they are not designed for classical position at all! They're only designed for the neck to be raised at a 45 degree angle ( much like classical ) yet resting on the right thigh.

I suppose one could mitigate this problem by bringing the leg rest slightly farther out from the tuners while blocking the tuners themselves with a segment of intact body wood directly beneath them.


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## crackout (Jul 6, 2017)

For me, the tuners do not touch my leg. However, the outer contour does as well as the plug.




It's not ideal, yes. The Varberg does it better.

However, it's no issue or a big impact on comfort. The rest of the great shape and ergonomics will make you forget this OFI pretty fast.


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## HungryGuitarStudent (Aug 12, 2018)

I own a Strandberg Boden metal 7 and the tuners do not touch my leg in classical position.

I've just received a Kiesel V7X and the bottom strap nut digs into my leg (but not the tuners) when I play in classical position without a strap. I'll try wearing a strap to see if that solves the problem (as was pointed out by others).


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## Zhysick (Aug 15, 2018)

Solved.


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## crackout (Aug 16, 2018)

Zhysick said:


> Solved.


...at the price of supreme ugliness. You got to love the block headstock and the 'more than random' cutouts on the body.


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## Zhysick (Aug 19, 2018)

crackout said:


> ...at the price of supreme ugliness. You got to love the block headstock and the 'more than random' cutouts on the body.



Comfort > aesthetics

For me. That's personal of course. I don't have that Mayones, and will never have it, but if I want a headless without that problem there you have the solution: a piece of wood like this.

BTW, it is removable, so you can use it ONLY while sitting at home or studio... that might be a plus if you don't like that aesthetics.


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## Bdtunn (Aug 19, 2018)

The Oakland axe factory/Drinkwater guitars sit perfect in classical position.


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