# Descending sweeps - help?



## shreddanson (Aug 3, 2011)

I apologize if this has already been touched up on 6,000 times, still new here, but I could use some expertise. I've always had a tough time sweep-picking arpeggios descending. Particularly shapes like these (I'm currently trying to learn Jeff Loomis's "Miles of Machines" and Arsis's "Shattering the Spell"):

|-19-14-------------
|-------15----------
|----------16-------
|-------------16----
|----------------17-
|-------------------

|-17-12---------------
|-------14------------
|----------14---------
|-------------14------
|----------------16-12
|----------------------

|-5-------------
|---6-----------
|-----7---------
|-------7-------
|---------8-5---
|---------------

|-10---------------
|----10------------
|-------10---------
|----------12------
|-------------12-8-
|-------------------

Normally when I play them ascending, I can do it clean, I just bar the notes that are played on the same string, but when it comes to descending I'm sloppy as hell, even when I am practicing slowly. Am I going about this all wrong? How should I be playing said "barred" notes when sweeping? 

Thanks for the help in advance and sorry for all the stupid questions


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## in-pursuit (Aug 3, 2011)

the trick with the notes on the same fret on adjacent strings is to "roll" your fretting hand. it's difficult to describe I'd suggest you try and search youtube for some lessons to get a better idea of what I mean, essentially you want to lift the part of your finger that is barring on the previous string that you played when you hit the next one in the sequence. basically the sloppiness you're talking about is caused by the previous notes ringing out as you move on. it's usually not a problem for people when ascending through a sweep shape because the right hand mutes the notes as it moves down across the strings. make sense?


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## shreddanson (Aug 4, 2011)

Yeah, I've tried searching YouTube, it seems every time I search for sweeping lessons on youtube all the lessons get lost in an endless see of kids covering the Selkies sweeps, haha. But what you said makes perfect sense to me. I generally don't have a problem playing other arpeggio shapes, I don't know why. When it comes to barred notes my brain goes all "durrrr".


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## The Reverend (Aug 4, 2011)

Outside of 3-string sweeps, arpeggios with barred notes are the only ones I can play. I'm not sure my technique is kosher or whatever, but it gets the job done.

Practice it going incredibly, painfully slow. Do all the hammers and pulls and yada yada yada, but make sure you place 100% of your focus on doing it cleanly, and on getting the finger(s) in question to roll fluidly. Also keep in mind that the thumb has to roll on the back of the neck as well to accommodate the hands' movement. 

Do this a million times, or until you can do it clean a bunch, then speed up. Also, come up with a non-musical exercise to get the actual movement ingrained in your muscle memory.


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## shreddanson (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks for the advice, man. Also, another thing I've noticed is when I start out descending, I have a tendency to downstroke the first note, would starting off with upstrokes generally be more effective in helping it all sound more fluid?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Aug 4, 2011)

I've tried the upstroke thing and its cool, but just do it down.


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## The Reverend (Aug 4, 2011)

shreddanson said:


> Thanks for the advice, man. Also, another thing I've noticed is when I start out descending, I have a tendency to downstroke the first note, would starting off with upstrokes generally be more effective in helping it all sound more fluid?



I think it's more in the left-hand technique. It would probably help you in general to get both hands really comfortable with the motion, but ultimately the fluidity comes from the left hand. Mix it up if you want, it won't hurt as long as you focus on building those neural pathways.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 4, 2011)

you best be picking up what the rev is laying down, cause he's on the money right there. I totally forgot to hammer the "snail it before you nail it" analogy haha! you should only ever care for accuracy, because speed is actually a by-product of it and there are no two ways about it. as far as down stroking the first note, if you are not familiar with economy picking I suggest you look into it because it's a fairly logical extension of the concept of sweep picking.


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## starslight (Aug 4, 2011)

Be very patient with yourself when practicing this, as the "Two Strings, One Finger" thing trips up a lot of people. In fact, it trips people up so much that some of the big bosses don't use the "A" or "A minor" triad shapes at all in their sweepy bits. They find another way to get the notes out because those shapes are just _that_ annoying.

One thing that's a drag about the technique is that no matter how precisely you roll your finger, you'll always get at least tiny bit of overlap between the notes. This overlap will be all but imperceptible to the average listener, but if you're putting your technique under the microscope and straining your ear for signs of slop, it can make it seem like you'll never get it. 

As for the actual "rolling" technique, try getting the motion going from your forearm instead of or in addition to flattening your finger.

When going from a thicker string to a thinner string: use your fingertip to fret the first note, and keep the rest of the finger slightly curved. Now, without taking your thumb off the neck, pull your forearm back just enough (just the forearm, don't move your shoulder shoulder; this is a very small and relaxed motion) that the fretted note is deadened. This puts your finger in a good position to fret the next note. 

Pulling your forearm back slightly more will dampen the second note, and get you set up for the third note if you're doing a three-string barre(l) roll

To go from a thinner string to a thicker string, just reverse the process: push your forearm out. How much you have to actually flatten your finger or move your forearm depends on how you hold the guitar, the shape of your fingers, your action, your string gauge, the distance between your strings, and at least a dozen other variables. Pretty tedious, if you ask me. But it seems like a worthwhile technique.

Hope I explained that semi-coherently. I would have drawn a picture but it would have come out looking like a ghost going up some stairs.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 4, 2011)

starslight said:


> One thing that's a drag about the technique is that no matter how precisely you roll your finger, you'll always get at least tiny bit of overlap between the notes.


 
incorrect. perfection is possible with the right attitude, only the lazy are incapable.


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## starslight (Aug 4, 2011)

in-pursuit said:


> incorrect. perfection is possible with the right attitude, only the lazy are incapable.



Nah, not with this technique. We'll have to settle for near-perfection. There's a reason why guys like Shawn Lane, Steve Morse, and Marshall Harrison avoid fingering notes this way whenever possible: it's a compromise.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 4, 2011)

you can doubt your own abilities all you like, just don't claim them to be truths that are universally applicable thanks very much.


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## jymellis (Aug 4, 2011)

metronome. 60BPM.


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## ShadyDavey (Aug 4, 2011)

Bear in mind that you don't _have_ to barre some sections. Just checked out Rusty Cooley's "Arpeggio Madness" (as well as checking out exactly how Steve Morse plays Tumeni Notes) and you can actually use a different fingering method for shapes like this:

14
14
14

Just play 1st finger, 2nd finger, 1st finger or perhaps 2nd, 3rd, 2nd depending on the notes immediately preceding/following the barre. Unusual and perhaps even awkward to the point of uselessness for some but it's clearly a workable solution for some players. It does only work with three-string barres but it may help you to experiment with it? 

Failing that, take a very close look at the way Frank Gambale sweeps through barres because no-one is cleaner than him when it comes to that technique. Exaggerate the "roll" to start with, and try incorporating the forearm if you find that to be of assistance but two things can't ever be overstated:

Metronome.
Slow before Go.


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## starslight (Aug 4, 2011)

in-pursuit said:


> you can doubt your own abilities all you like



Done and done! But I'll go ahead and maintain that, while note separation _can_ be achieved by rolling a finger for speed and ease, it is not of the same quality as one would get from fretting those same notes with separate fingers. 

Just for funsies, take a solo like "This Godless Endeavor" and slow it wayyyyyyy down. When Loomis plays arpeggios with barred strings you'll hear that the notes have a slight overlap, even in spite of his flawless technique. I'm sure he's aware of this, and if he could play at that speed with another technique, he would. 

Like I said, it's not really perceptible to the listener, especially at that speed and with a great band blasting away behind you; as a listener it just sounds badass. That's why it's a worthwhile technique. My only real point in even bringing it up was to encourage a dude to take it easy on himself while learning a hard technique.


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## ShadyDavey (Aug 4, 2011)

starslight said:


> Done and done! But I'll go ahead and maintain that, while note separation _can_ be achieved by rolling a finger for speed and ease, it is not of the same quality as one would get from fretting those same notes with separate fingers.
> 
> Just for funsies, take a solo like "This Godless Endeavor" and slow it wayyyyyyy down. When Loomis plays arpeggios with barred strings you'll hear that the notes have a slight overlap, even in spite of his flawless technique. I'm sure he's aware of this, and if he could play at that speed with another technique, he would.
> 
> Like I said, it's not really perceptible to the listener, especially at that speed and with a great band blasting away behind you; as a listener it just sounds badass. That's why it's a worthwhile technique. My only real point in even bringing it up was to encourage a dude to take it easy on himself while learning a hard technique.





Even Frank has slight "bleed" with this technique at times........as you say there are allowances that many are prepared to make, or other more radical fingering ideas but lacking interest in developing the latter you're forced to consider the former, if only out of expediency.

I'm certain you could develop an impeccable rolling technique given enough interest and time spent developing it but quite honestly there are so many players who are widely lauded and don't polish it to the nth degree that I can't see it detracting from your overall style.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 4, 2011)

starslight said:


> note separation _can_ be achieved by rolling a finger.
> 
> When Loomis plays arpeggios with barred strings you'll hear that the notes have a slight overlap, *even in spite of his flawless technique*.



so which is it buddy, it's possible? although Loomis has flawless technique and is unable to achieve it...?


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## shreddanson (Aug 4, 2011)

Wow, very useful info guys, thanks for all the help!


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## starslight (Aug 4, 2011)

shreddanson said:


> Wow, very useful info guys, thanks for all the help!



Good luck. Stay positive. Don't forget to bring a towel.



in-pursuit said:


> so which is it buddy, it's possible? although Loomis has flawless technique and is unable to achieve it...?



Ever heard Holdsworth talk about the guitar? Don't you think it's possible for an instrument to work against a musician's purposes, regardless of how good he or she is at playing it?


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## SirMyghin (Aug 4, 2011)

I know when I roll a bar (what 2 notes 1 finger is called when you don't want both to sound) I end up using some wrist motion to pull it off. Works for me, not the most economical though.


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## shreddanson (Aug 4, 2011)

ShadyDavey said:


> Bear in mind that you don't _have_ to barre some sections. Just checked out Rusty Cooley's "Arpeggio Madness" (as well as checking out exactly how Steve Morse plays Tumeni Notes) and you can actually use a different fingering method for shapes like this:
> 
> 14
> 14
> ...



I've taken your advice and done what you said for the past hour and a half or so...noticing great improvement already!


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## ShadyDavey (Aug 4, 2011)

It's not for everyone but if it helps then great stuff and keep practicing


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## Guamskyy (Aug 4, 2011)

Make sure for those wide streches that you USE YOUR PINKY!! It'll be easier to set up the rollling of your finger on the descending.

With rolling, think of it as, well, rolling your wrist towards you  that's the best way to explain, but it's how I go about that concept, and I can play 7 string sweeps... not to brag though, just a testimonial


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## EdgeC (Aug 5, 2011)

For what it's worth I used to practice pentatonics (all shapes) like this:

Position one (A Minor) 

8--5-------------------------------------------------------------5--8--
-----5--8---------------------------------------------------8--5-------
----------7--5-----------------------------------------5--7------------
---------------5--7-------------------------------7--5-----------------
--------------------7--5--------------------5--7-----------------------
-------------------------5--8----------8--5----------------------------
------------------------------8--5--8----------------------------------

Just practice slow. After a while the roll becomes natuaral. When it comes to arps with rolls it will make it so much easier.

I would also tackle the solo to 'I, Voyager' by Nevermore which is a great excercie to get these arps down. Tab Attached.


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## shreddanson (Aug 5, 2011)

EdgeC said:


> For what it's worth I used to practice pentatonics (all shapes) like this:
> 
> Position one (A Minor)
> 
> ...



Very interesting approach, I'll try that out. And thanks for the tab...Loomis's sweeps are fucking disgusting (in a good way, of course)!


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## StratoJazz (Aug 5, 2011)

From EdgeC:

For what it's worth I used to practice pentatonics (all shapes) like this:

Position one (A Minor) 

8--5-------------------------------------------------------------5--8--
-----5--8---------------------------------------------------8--5-------
----------7--5-----------------------------------------5--7------------
---------------5--7-------------------------------7--5-----------------
--------------------7--5--------------------5--7-----------------------
-------------------------5--8----------8--5----------------------------
------------------------------8--5--8----------------------------------

Just practice slow. After a while the roll becomes natuaral. When it comes to arps with rolls it will make it so much easier.

I would also tackle the solo to 'I, Voyager' by Nevermore which is a great excercie to get these arps down. Tab Attached.



shreddanson said:


> Very interesting approach, I'll try that out. And thanks for the tab...Loomis's sweeps are fucking disgusting (in a good way, of course)!



Dude, that is a chop buster!!!! I'll have to try that out some time.

On the other hand, practice only sweeping down(descending) while you practice for awhile. You'll find that it becomes more natural as you go along.


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