# Need help in learning and understanding advanced rhythm



## CRaul87 (Apr 10, 2012)

Hey guys,
I was wondering if any1 can point me towards some resource that could help me learn and understand more advanced rhythm and by that I mean some of the more extreme syncopation stuff... like playing a 16th ahead or before the pulse.
I've been noticing lately as I've been trying to re record some of my riffs that I can't quite get them the same way I did at first. 
I've tried to analyze their rhythm more closely by putting them in guitar pro and although now I can visually understand how they work I still can't play them well while trying to focus at the same time to a metronome. That is not to say I can't play them to a metronome, I can but only if I take the first beat of the metronome as a reference point and then when playing the riff go by feel alone and hope that when it's all set and done I end up at the end on time...

So, if any1 know any resources that could help me with this I would be so grateful for the information


----------



## Solodini (Apr 10, 2012)

Really, I think you just need to slow down what you're trying to play. It seems you know what to do, you're just trying to rush ahead. Take the parts you're trying to play and slow them down so you can count along while you play it and only speed up by small increments when you can consistently perform it perfectly at that speed and remain aware of where in each beat/bar your notes are falling.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 10, 2012)

Maybe this will help. In my musicianship class, we use konnakol syllables to express various rhythms. So long as you know where the beat is, you can't go wrong.







This is just one way to go about it. You can interchange syllables, so long as they're some kind of 2, 3, or 4 group. For example, the sextuplets I have up there are 2+4 (Ta-ka + Ta-ka-di-mi), but they could well be 4+2 (Ta-ka-di-mi + Ta-ka), or 3+3 (Ta-ki-ta + Ta-ki-ta). It depends on what the situation calls for. As you can see, when there's a rest involved, it's a good idea to vocalise the rest. This makes it so that you don't have to guess.

To show how this works with beat denominations other than quarter notes, here's 2/8:






And 2/2:






Practice singing rhythms. It'll help you out, and you'll hear these things everywhere.

Genesis - In The Cage


At 0:56, the organ's rhythm is one of those sextuplet subdivision things: Ta-mi-ta, Ta-mi-ta, Ta-mi-ta... (Dotted eightgh, sixteenth, eighth)


----------



## ElRay (Apr 10, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Maybe this will help. In my musicianship class, we use konnakol syllables...


 ... next thing you know, you'll be recommending Chromatic, Fixed-Do Solfége 

Ray


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 10, 2012)

I certainly wouldn't say anything against it. 

Edit: Oh, god, are we flirting?


----------



## CRaul87 (Apr 10, 2012)

Solodini said:


> Really, I think you just need to slow down what you're trying to play. It seems you know what to do, you're just trying to rush ahead. Take the parts you're trying to play and slow them down so you can count along while you play it and only speed up by small increments when you can consistently perform it perfectly at that speed and remain aware of where in each beat/bar your notes are falling.



You know what, there is some truth to what you are saying and I have definitely noticed it for a while now but not in my rhythm playing but in my "shred" patterns. 
I remember having learned some time ago a pentatonic scale run in witch every sequence of the run was made up of 2 six note groupings and it was so damn hard to learn playing it as 3 four note groupings on the metronome but I stuck to it and eventually got it.... but now for ex. I have this descending legato lick witch is grouped 8 notes per sequence and I want to play it as sextuplets but it's like I have a damn allergy to slowing the damn thing down and actually map down where my metronome accents will land
I guess I'm kinda going through that phase when I'm just too cool for school to actually slow down, break it apart and learn like a normal person
I seriously need to slap some sense in myself!


----------



## ElRay (Apr 11, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Oh, god, are we flirting?


I'll keep that in PM's 

Ray


----------



## Grimbold (Apr 12, 2012)

ElRay said:


> I'll keep that in PM's
> 
> Ray


hot 

anyway

when i was havng trouble with rhythm i did two things

1. Tried to play along with drum beats playing a note on each beat
2. Learned songs with complicated rhythm to a perfection (ie djent) 

both of those things should help you out


----------



## Varcolac (Apr 12, 2012)

Anthony Wellington is a very good bassist, and an even better teacher. This isn't exactly "advanced" rhythm, but it's the foundational framework for pretty much everything else. The ability to hit the "e of 1," or any sixteenth note in the bar, is a pretty useful ability to have.



I suppose it's like visual konnakol.


----------



## Osorio (Apr 13, 2012)

SchecterWhore said:


> Maybe this will help. In my musicianship class, we use konnakol syllables to express various rhythms. So long as you know where the beat is, you can't go wrong.



I learned something very similar when I was doing choir in my very young years... But all the syllables began with a T, that helped me a lot in remembering stuff. Weird thing is that, overall, it sounded so "wacky" that I always thought it was just our conductor being a smart-ass to us. Never thought it was an actual thing. 
This is a nice discovery for me, mainly because it may validate the system I was taught for some University entrance exams  At any rate, thanks for sharing that!



Varcolac said:


> Anthony Wellington is a very good bassist, and an even better teacher. This isn't exactly "advanced" rhythm, but it's the foundational framework for pretty much everything else. The ability to hit the "e of 1," or any sixteenth note in the bar, is a pretty useful ability to have.



Question, may be super dumb, but what is happening in this video? Is this a master class of some sort? Where is this? How did these people get there? ... I mean, I am aware from the description that it is a workshop, but is this only a "one time thing" for recording? Or to they do regular and successive ones (like a class in college) that people can apply to?


----------



## Varcolac (Apr 13, 2012)

venneer said:


> I learned something very similar when I was doing choir in my very young years... But all the syllables began with a T, that helped me a lot in remembering stuff. Weird thing is that, overall, it sounded so "wacky" that I always thought it was just our conductor being a smart-ass to us. Never thought it was an actual thing.
> This is a nice discovery for me, mainly because it may validate the system I was taught for some University entrance exams  At any rate, thanks for sharing that!
> 
> 
> ...



Messrs Wellington and Wooten are teaching these young men to groove. That's what's happenin'.

It's from Wooten's DVD, Victor Wooten: Groove Workshop. I think that was specially filmed as a one-time thing, but Wooten does a regular 6-day "Bass/Nature Camp" where for a few hundred American bucks he (and a few other musicians and survival experts) will take you and a bunch of other musicians out into the woods and teach you to both groove and make a shelter out of twigs. It's like Ray Mears meets James Jamerson. I want to go, if only to see how the hell 'groove' and 'big old forest' are connected.


----------



## Osorio (Apr 13, 2012)

Varcolac said:


> Wooten does a regular 6-day "Bass/Nature Camp" where for a few hundred American bucks he (and a few other musicians and survival experts) will take you and a bunch of other musicians out into the woods and teach you to both groove and make a shelter out of twigs. It's like Ray Mears meets James Jamerson. I want to go, if only to see how the hell 'groove' and 'big old forest' are connected.



That's.... unorthodox. Sounds fun, actually.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Apr 13, 2012)

So basically, it's funky bandcamp.


----------



## TREYAZAGHTOTH (Apr 17, 2012)

To the OP:
You might want to check out John Mclaughlin's :"gateways to rhythm".
He explains the use of konnakal in depth...as well as examples of how it integrates into his style of music on the guitar.
It has helped me a lot in understanding rhythm...especially poly rhythms.
regards
dinesh


----------



## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Apr 17, 2012)

~While we're on the subject of bass players giving advice, I'd like to quote John Myung of Dream Theater;

Myung: " ..."






I think it means listen or something... He's too profound for me... 

@Varcolac; Thanks for the video.
@Schechterwhore: Thanks for the ti-ki-ta-ki in depth explanation.



I was really surprised when Shawn talked about thinking primarily in rythmn, as his scalic knowledge had evolved beyond the conventional priority of harmony.


----------

