# Glossary of Luthier/Builder Complaints: Caveat Emptor



## KnightBrolaire (Jul 20, 2018)

I thought there was a sticky on this subject, but from my cursory search it doesn't seem like there was a dedicated thread for this.
The biggest criteria for adding a builder to this thread is *consistent* lack of communication, *consistent* lack of meeting build deadlines and *consistently* poor quality of builds.
Feel free to add other builders so long as they meet the 3 criteria, with the consistently poor quality of builds obviously being the biggest issue.
*Etherial* : *horrendous build quality, poorly thought out ergonomics
see etherial thread, most recent negative review is on pg.69, there's more dating back years*
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/etherial-guitars.223317/page-69
*Bernie Rico Jr: ran off with multiple customers' money, zero communication towards the end, terrible build quality at the the end, reselling customer builds*
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...ates-for-by-customers-ad-free.138377/page-267
*Decibel Guitars : ran off with multiple customers' money (eventually refunded some), middling build quality, extremely inconsistent output, fundamentally unable to meet deadlines*
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/...tars-thread-builds-in-progress.107761/page-69
*Sims Custom Shop USA (horrible communication, unable to meet deadlines, poor build quality)*
Proof: https://www.jemsite.com/forums/f29/patrick-sims-custom-shop-tn-usa-experiences-88423.html
*Sherman (ran off with customer's money, non-delivery of guitars,etc)*
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/anyone-heard-from-sherman-lately.96533/page-13
*Invictus (horrendous build quality)*
proof: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/invictus-guitars-revealed-to-be-idiots.225396/
*Roter (horrendous build quality)*
proof: http://avhguitarrepair.com/repair-blog/poorly-designed-roter-8-string-rebuild/
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/caveat-emptor-my-roter-situation.145555/
*Blackwater* (high quality builds but has terrible communication and can't seem to meet deadlines consistently)
proof: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/black-water-guitar-company.184440/page-58
Vik (poor communication, basically ran off with people's money/guitars at certain points, used customer builds at namm, borrowed parts of customer builds, etc)
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/vik-stole-my-money.314157/
http://sevenstring.org/threads/vik-duality-8-string-run-closed-run.220532/page-6
Hart Guitars/Bass:
http://mail.sevenstring.org/threads/experience-custom-7-build-thread.305645/page-2
https://www.facebook.com/HartGuitars/
consistently crooked pickup routes/general poor build quality


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 20, 2018)

In the past, we've tried to avoid a list like this.

I'll be watching this pretty closely, but if gets out of hand, or other mods or Alex don't like it, expect it to get nuked.

Also, if this is going to work, you're going to have to provide sources and links for everything.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 20, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> In the past, we've tried to avoid a list like this.
> 
> I'll be watching this pretty closely, but if gets out of hand, or other mods or Alex don't like it, expect it to get nuked.


fair point, that's part of why I was posting my criteria for the list. Hopefully people follow it instead of just jumping in and flaming random builders.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 20, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> fair point, that's part of why I was posting my criteria for the list. Hopefully people follow it instead of just jumping in and flaming random builders.



See my edit. We're going to need "proof".


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## Lemonbaby (Jul 20, 2018)

What exact tolerances are you aiming for in your three criteria? Those are formulated quite abstract...


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## vilk (Jul 20, 2018)

I've never seen a Blakhart NGD on this forum since I've joined 5 years ago. Is this list based off reviews from this website or is the info coming from somewhere else?


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 20, 2018)

Lemonbaby said:


> What exact tolerances are you aiming for in your three criteria? Those are formulated quite abstract...


Like I said in the OP, I'm mostly looking for builders with evidence of consistently poor build quality. That's the most heavily weighted criteria as far as I'm concerned. Some other builders that I added in there were more for their inability to meet any kind of deadline (or at least consistently meet them)/their lack of consistent communication. 
Both of those factors are less critical than consistent build quality, but I'd say all the very highly regarded builders on here are more consistent in all three aspects.


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 20, 2018)

Slightly off-topic, but what worries me is how many of them *were* respected, reviewed and hyped and had reputations and waiting lists - before it all went to shit. Kinda scary when you do want to go with a custom build, because you never know when something could change.


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## Demiurge (Jul 20, 2018)

^Kind of like becoming a victim of one's own success. For some, it seems, their workload overcame their ability to handle it (or ability to say "no" for that matter) and things spiraled.


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## laxu (Jul 21, 2018)

Demiurge said:


> ^Kind of like becoming a victim of one's own success. For some, it seems, their workload overcame their ability to handle it (or ability to say "no" for that matter) and things spiraled.



Where a lot of these builders fail is communication. "Sorry but I have been far too optimistic in my estimation, it's going to take x time longer" for a build in progress and "Really sorry about this delay, you can have a refund if you want to cancel the build." for a not-yet-started guitar. People are happy to wait if they are just told what the situation is and get to see a progress pic from time to time.

Some builders just don't seem to grasp this and will be off the grid for months or the more dishonest ones will only answer someone looking to start a build.


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## diagrammatiks (Jul 21, 2018)

laxu said:


> Where a lot of these builders fail is communication. "Sorry but I have been far too optimistic in my estimation, it's going to take x time longer" for a build in progress and "Really sorry about this delay, you can have a refund if you want to cancel the build." for a not-yet-started guitar. People are happy to wait if they are just told what the situation is and get to see a progress pic from time to time.
> 
> Some builders just don't seem to grasp this and will be off the grid for months or the more dishonest ones will only answer someone looking to start a build.



or be blackwater decide that you actually hate this shit and disappear forever.


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 21, 2018)

laxu said:


> Where a lot of these builders fail is communication. "Sorry but I have been far too optimistic in my estimation, it's going to take x time longer" for a build in progress and "Really sorry about this delay, you can have a refund if you want to cancel the build." for a not-yet-started guitar. People are happy to wait if they are just told what the situation is and get to see a progress pic from time to time.
> 
> Some builders just don't seem to grasp this and will be off the grid for months or the more dishonest ones will only answer someone looking to start a build.



Agreed. I contacted two legit builders recently. Carillion was one. Feline guitars was the other. Both have good reputations as far as I know.

Feline simply never replied to 3 separate emails (one per month). I understand being busy, or missing emails occasionally. But they aren't *that* busy that they can't respond to simply requests. They chose to ignore it. Maybe they're so successful that they don't need new customers. Or maybe you need the secret handshake to ask questions about the B6.

Carillion also didn't reply to a quote request. I chased up on social media twice, and both times Chris read the message, then replied days later saying soon. Then, after more than two months, I did get a very apologetic email from Chris saying he'd totally dropped the ball, had been busy etc. I appreciate him apologising, but the damage was already done IMO. I couldn't sensibly hand over £3000+ to somebody that disorganised who just disappears without contact. (Also, upon checking his Instagram activity, he's online constantly and likes thousands of photos of suicide girls. So he has time for that, but is "too busy" to answer customer inquiries...)

I ended up putting TWO deposits down with a builder that I really liked, who replied to everything in a helpful and timely manner, and who was totally happy to meet up, chat etc. 

So yes, communication is essential. And I'd never, ever give large amounts of money to people who can't manage to reply to emails or talk on the phone. If they can't even get the ordering right, I have no faith in them handling the build, updates, changes etc.


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## jco5055 (Jul 21, 2018)

Same with me and Skervesen, I sent emails to various companies/luthiers (Roehrs, Ran, Padalka to name a few) asking if they had more options than was listed online, could you do X etc, and Skervesen still hasn't responded and it's been a month or so.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jul 21, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Carillion also didn't reply to a quote request. I chased up on social media twice, and both times Chris read the message, then replied days later saying soon. Then, after more than two months, I did get a very apologetic email from Chris saying he'd totally dropped the ball, had been busy etc. I appreciate him apologising, but the damage was already done IMO. I couldn't sensibly hand over £3000+ to somebody that disorganised who just disappears without contact. (Also, upon checking his Instagram activity, he's online constantly and likes thousands of photos of suicide girls. So he has time for that, but is "too busy" to answer customer inquiries...)



Disorganised is the last thing I'd call Chris. He's one of the few builders nowadays who has super strict build times accurate to almost a date, both my builds were even done under the estimated 4 months, great communication, constant updates with spec confirmation messages throughout the build. I've been through the custom process a lot and nobody is more organised than Chris. His output is twice some shops with several workers cause of how on top he is with his business.


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## cmtd (Jul 22, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> Feline simply never replied to 3 separate emails (one per month). I understand being busy, or missing emails occasionally. But they aren't *that* busy that they can't respond to simply requests. They chose to ignore it. Maybe they're so successful that they don't need new customers. Or maybe you need the secret handshake to ask questions about the B6.



I had the same experience with Feline. Multiple emails, never got a response. Figured I didn't need a b6 that bad and moved on.



jco5055 said:


> Same with me and Skervesen, I sent emails to various companies/luthiers (Roehrs, Ran, Padalka to name a few) asking if they had more options than was listed online, could you do X etc, and Skervesen still hasn't responded and it's been a month or so.



I actually had the exact opposite experience with Skervesen. They answered all my emails typically within 24 hours. We had 100+ emails back and forth during my build. This is when Bogumil was doing the communications, I believe it is someone new now, and I don't have any first hand experience with whomever that is.


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## Ziricote (Jul 22, 2018)

I try contact Feline asking about guitar available that I was ready buy on the spot and nonreplies from him


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## narad (Jul 22, 2018)

Also wrote Feline about a guitar (via FB), no response...


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 22, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Disorganised is the last thing I'd call Chris. He's one of the few builders nowadays who has super strict build times accurate to almost a date, both my builds were even done under the estimated 4 months, great communication, constant updates with spec confirmation messages throughout the build. I've been through the custom process a lot and nobody is more organised than Chris. His output is twice some shops with several workers cause of how on top he is with his business.



I know. In fact, it was your post which convinced me to contact him. You said the build quality was equal to your Daemoness, and I trust what you say. 

Either way, he totally dropped the ball with my request (by his own admission), and he was extremely apologetic about it. Fair enough, but at that point I didn’t feel I wanted to give him £3,000+. 

Just my experience. Maybe other people will have different experiences.


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 22, 2018)

cmtd said:


> I had the same experience with Feline. Multiple emails, never got a response. Figured I didn't need a b6 that bad and moved on.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually had the exact opposite experience with Skervesen. They answered all my emails typically within 24 hours. We had 100+ emails back and forth during my build. This is when Bogumil was doing the communications, I believe it is someone new now, and I don't have any first hand experience with whomever that is.





Ziricote said:


> I try contact Feline asking about guitar available that I was ready buy on the spot and nonreplies from him





narad said:


> Also wrote Feline about a guitar (via FB), no response...



I’m in the UK right now. I’ll call them when they open and see what they say. 

Their website not updated since 2014, and I find it particularly ironic that their ‘how we do business’ link is broken.


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## narad (Jul 22, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> I’m in the UK right now. I’ll call them when they open and see what they say.
> 
> Their website not updated since 2014, and I find it particularly ironic that their ‘how we do business’ link is broken.



Building other people's designs is very time-consuming.


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## Chr0nicConsumer (Jul 22, 2018)

cmtd said:


> I had the same experience with Feline. Multiple emails, never got a response. Figured I didn't need a b6 that bad and moved on.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually had the exact opposite experience with Skervesen. They answered all my emails typically within 24 hours. We had 100+ emails back and forth during my build. This is when Bogumil was doing the communications, I believe it is someone new now, and I don't have any first hand experience with whomever that is.


It's Bartlomiej currently. Great guy, very friendly, but they are suuuuper busy.

I ordered a Skervesen on May 1st, having spoken with Jarek (the founder / CEO) for two weeks before then. Jarek responded within 24 hours every time. However, Bartlomiej told me they are pretty behind on some of their builds - they've been exploding in popularity over the last three or so years - and they want to finish those builds before prioritising new builds like myself.

If you check their Instagram and Facebook (and honestly, you should - so many good looking guitars), they upload one new instrument per day. Busy folk!
In any case, I'm very happy about their communication. I honestly believe they're just too damn busy to respond as much as they would like. Every message I've gotten from them has been genuine, apologising for the delays, and extremely open for my personal feedback. I wanted a custom finish they had never done before, and they've been great in answering any and all of my questions.


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## jco5055 (Jul 22, 2018)

Yeah I can understand skervs current issues, my old job was similar where sometimes there was no way st all to respond to emails within our 48 hour supposed response time. So I wouldn’t say my experience would be a “put them on this list” (I feel like that should only be definitive people that are consistently terrible with their builds/customer service)


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## cmtd (Jul 22, 2018)

Chr0nicConsumer said:


> It's Bartlomiej currently. Great guy, very friendly, but they are suuuuper busy.
> 
> I ordered a Skervesen on May 1st, having spoken with Jarek (the founder / CEO) for two weeks before then. Jarek responded within 24 hours every time. However, Bartlomiej told me they are pretty behind on some of their builds - they've been exploding in popularity over the last three or so years - and they want to finish those builds before prioritising new builds like myself.
> 
> ...



My build was completed just about a year ago. I'm not sure if much has changed in the last 12 months. That was my experience from the end of 2016 until my build was done in May of 2017.

I see their social media all the time. My guitar is the raptor 6, when you look at the raptor models on their website


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## Chr0nicConsumer (Jul 22, 2018)

cmtd said:


> My build was completed just about a year ago. I'm not sure if much has changed in the last 12 months. That was my experience from the end of 2016 until my build was done in May of 2017.
> 
> I see their social media all the time. My guitar is the raptor 6, when you look at the raptor models on their website


That is an absolutely amazing guitar, I can only hope mine turns out just as well! It'll be different (Raptor 7, multiscale, neck through body et cetera).

Can't wait for more pictures of mine. I will say, they have been slower than expected with sending progress pictures - they say every 3 weeks, that does not seem to be the case - but in communicating when it comes to ideas, they've been great. I'm going for a custom agate burst / darker blue mixture that I'm very excited about.


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## Flappydoodle (Jul 22, 2018)

narad said:


> Building other people's designs is very time-consuming.



I mean, maybe it's just so popular that they're booked years in advance and don't give a shit about new customers.

Somehow I doubt it though. 

Or maybe they're just staying true to Doug and Blackmachine, by playing hard to get and disappearing!


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## Zado (Jul 24, 2018)

> *Blackwater* (high quality builds but has terrible communication and can't seem to meet deadlines consistently)
> proof: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/black-water-guitar-company.184440/page-58
> Vik (poor communication, basically ran off with people's money/guitars at certain points, used customer builds at namm, borrowed parts of customer builds, etc)



I wasnt expecting these two.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 27, 2018)

Zado said:


> I wasnt expecting these two.


I added them due to the number of customers on here that got burned by both, their respective threads have all the details. Vik still hasn't finished guitars from a run started like 5 yrs ago for some members on here.


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## Vyn (Jul 27, 2018)

Zado said:


> I wasnt expecting these two.



Vik Guitars been in the media for quite a few things, none of them positive. First search result on google:

http://loudwire.com/periphery-cut-ties-vik-guitars-homophobic-remarks-against-cynic/


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 26, 2018)

*MOD EDIT: A third party list with no sources isn't going to fly.*


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 26, 2018)

Without any further info/sources that list doesn't meet the standard I set forth earlier.


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## Randy (Sep 26, 2018)

Thread title changed. Nothing wrong with listing companies with frequent complaints and citations but it's still the decision of the buyer if the benefits outweigh the risks or vice versa.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 30, 2018)

http://sevenstring.org/threads/vik-guitars-ss-org-run-build-thread-run-is-closed.166736/page-19
Vik is still untrustworthy imo. Some people have been waiting 5 years for a build while he churns out new stuff for his in-stock.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 7, 2019)

Yet another strike against Vik. also necrobump for the good of SSO
https://sevenstring.org/threads/hor...money-and-sold-my-guitar.336515/#post-5014017


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 17, 2019)

Lionheart Guitars got called out for shoddy work:














Dropbox of all the photos/etc: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0qgw71i3...EyMmLF8Lwub_yl6XivNY6vdj0gLKahmMenJ2r4JxmIc_I


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 17, 2019)




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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 17, 2019)

dbl


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 17, 2019)

Look at the dropbox, all the issues are labeled and there are wayyy more pics.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 17, 2019)

Looks like he went to the same luthier school as Invictus and Sabre Guitars.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 17, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Looks like he went to the same luthier school as Invictus and Sabre Guitars.


 Some of the stuff isn't too bad (some of the scratches on the fretboard/neck) and they could have fixed it before ever shipping the guitar. Some of the stuff like the bad clear coat/lifting frets/misaligned pickups (which they make in house) is pretty ridiculous though. There's no excuses for that crap, especially on a 4000+ usd custom.


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## MFB (Jun 18, 2019)

That's a shame since I've really been in the market for a Zionheart guitar


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 18, 2019)

2/3 of the stuff looks normal to me... especiallly if the thing is handcrafted to some extent.
At least to me are non issues.

Fretwork,the big scratches and bridge spacing (that most likely creates the string- pups pacing issue) are definitely not cool, shame, she looks really cool.


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## Demiurge (Jun 18, 2019)

The more shit you try to cram into a build = more opportunities to fuck up = greater need to be careful.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 18, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> 2/3 of the stuff looks normal to me... especiallly if the thing is handcrafted to some extent.
> At least to me are non issues.
> 
> Fretwork,the big scratches and bridge spacing (that most likely creates the string- pups pacing issue) are definitely not cool, shame, she looks really cool.


for an over 4k usd build the issues are not even remotely acceptable, especially given the 2 yr build time. that's daemoness, carillion, waghorn, prs, suhr pricing, and all of those builders manage to put out damn near perfect builds consistently. take a look at the dropbox folder for descriptions of all the issues


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 18, 2019)

I did, I understand you tbh. 4k is a lot.
At the same time I would take your guitar over any prs or suhr, if it didn't had spacing issues.
Raw wood is like that and I prefer to see something like your guitar than a prs encased in plastic.

Excluding the serious build issues, half of the cosmetics you mention are non issues to me, even though almost everything seems redeemable, and they should have tried a bit more.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 18, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> I did, I understand you tbh. 4k is a lot.
> At the same time I would take your guitar over any prs or suhr, if it didn't had spacing issues.
> Raw wood is like that and I prefer to see something like your guitar than a prs encased in plastic.
> 
> Excluding the serious build issues, half of the cosmetics you mention are non issues to me, even though almost everything seems redeemable, and they should have tried a bit more.


it's not my guitar, i was merely sharing pics/info I got from the owner and the giy who was tasked with repairing the issues.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 18, 2019)

Stop. Sending. People. On. The. Other. Side. Of. The. Planet. All. Your. Money. 

Fuck.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 18, 2019)

Stop. Thinking. These. Gaudy. Epoxy. Bricks. Look. Cool.

Fuck.


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## Adieu (Jun 18, 2019)

Too much bling leads to too much sorrow.

Just get a guitar that plays well instead.


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## laxu (Jun 19, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


>



How do you fuck up this badly? I managed to do a better job on my first refret. The process isn't exactly rocket science: Cut a bit off the fret tang and leave the fret longer than the width of the fretboard at that position. When the fret is in you snip it against the side of the fretboard and file it flat with the neck. Then file the fret end to shape after leveling.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jun 20, 2019)

"just get a used Ibanez prestige"


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## spudmunkey (Jun 20, 2019)

laxu said:


> How do you fuck up this badly? I managed to do a better job on my first refret. The process isn't exactly rocket science: Cut a bit off the fret tang and leave the fret longer than the width of the fretboard at that position. When the fret is in you snip it against the side of the fretboard and file it flat with the neck. Then file the fret end to shape after leveling.



I think they were going for a particular look where the fret doesn't reach the end...the trick it stil, though, that they should all be the same length, and there shouldn't be visible open fret slot past the fret. You stop that short.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 20, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I think they were going for a particular look where the fret doesn't reach the end...the trick it stil, though, that they should all be the same length, and there shouldn't be visible open fret slot past the fret. You stop that short.


also helps if they would've actually seated the frets properly.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jun 20, 2019)

MiI amirite


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 20, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I think they were going for a particular look where the fret doesn't reach the end...the trick it stil, though, that they should all be the same length, and there shouldn't be visible open fret slot past the fret. You stop that short.



What in the world would be the purpose of that look.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 21, 2019)

A lot of builders do this so if the fretboard shrinks the fret end doesn’t poke out and cut your hand, it also means you feel the fret ends less when playing since they’re slightly further back. 

The downside to this is you can take too much off and the high E can slip when you play.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 21, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> A lot of builders do this so if the fretboard shrinks the fret end doesn’t poke out and cut your hand, it also means you feel the fret ends less when playing since they’re slightly further back.
> 
> The downside to this is you can take too much off and the high E can slip when you play.



Not to this extent. There's no reason to extend out the slot, trimming the tang negates that. 

If you don't want to feel the frets you "melt" them into the side of the neck/board, similar to how Gibson used to do neck binding. 

The high E slips when there isn't enough fret for it to land on. The distance between it and the end of the board means nothing. The style of fret end dressing matters as well. 

It just seems like they should have rolled the fretboard edge, but left it flat, which can look a little sloppy when there's so much material.


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## laxu (Jun 21, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I think they were going for a particular look where the fret doesn't reach the end...the trick it stil, though, that they should all be the same length, and there shouldn't be visible open fret slot past the fret. You stop that short.



The thing is, with the fretting method I mentioned, which is a common way to do it with binding you end up with the frets flush with the edge of the fretboard. You can then round them out but to get them this different in length you would have to install and cut the fret incorrectly to begin with. Like maybe they cut the frets and then installed the wrong one in the slot.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 21, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Not to this extent. There's no reason to extend out the slot, trimming the tang negates that.
> 
> If you don't want to feel the frets you "melt" them into the side of the neck/board, similar to how Gibson used to do neck binding.
> 
> ...



No doubt the execution is horrible, just explaining why I think he was trying to do. It should be like this where its not noticeable unless you look really closely.


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## spudmunkey (Jun 21, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> What in the world would be the purpose of that look.



I don't know. *shrugs* But it's a thing, on guitars with "hemispherical fret ends", or whatever they are called. They are generally bound fretboards, so perhaps that's a part of it the concept? No idea. It looks nice and comfy, but i's illogical...either the neck is needlessly wide, or the strings will have issues on shortened frets.


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 21, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I don't know. *shrugs* But it's a thing, on guitars with "hemispherical fret ends", or whatever they are called. They are generally bound fretboards, so perhaps that's a part of it the concept? No idea. It looks nice and comfy, but i's illogical...either the neck is needlessly wide, or the strings will have issues on shortened frets.



I had to go take a look at my hapas.
ya they don't go all the way to the end...
but like at least they are mostly uniform? 
that lionheart looks like they precut all the frets for a straight scale guitar and said fuck it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 21, 2019)

spudmunkey said:


> I don't know. *shrugs* But it's a thing, on guitars with "hemispherical fret ends", or whatever they are called. They are generally bound fretboards, so perhaps that's a part of it the concept? No idea. It looks nice and comfy, but i's illogical...either the neck is needlessly wide, or the strings will have issues on shortened frets.


that's not what diagrammatiks was talking about, he's saying the uneven fret lengths are issue. It's not that hard to actually cut frets to the proper size, and no competent luthier should be messing that up.
hemi frets have nothing to do with bound fretboards, it's just a really nice feature to have, plus they typically mitigate sharp edges on fret ends. You don't even have to do fully hemispherical fret ends to get the benefits, they just look really nice.
When done properly there shouldn't be any issue with string slippage, if there is, that means they ended up removing a bunch of fret material they didn't need to.


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## spudmunkey (Jun 21, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> that's not what diagrammatiks was talking about, he's saying the uneven fret lengths are issue.



Right, but the post I was replying to was asking what the point was of the frets stopping short of the end. I had already mentioned they still should all be the same, though.



KnightBrolaire said:


> hemi frets have nothing to do with bound fretboards,



True. I had only noticed them before on bound fretboards, but I see other examples. I knew that it wasn't necessary with bound fretboards, but it seemed like I had only seen the fret finishing feature on guitars with bound fretboards.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jun 21, 2019)

Ive already explained its for two reasons. One to allow room for the fretboard to shrink so the ends don’t stick out and dig into your hand when you move up and down, it’s just future proofing. This is a huge problem on the ibanez premium line, if they did this it would solve a lot of the problems with their sharp fret ends. Same with the complaints people have with kiesel and other guitars that seem prone to wood shrinkage issues. Although improperly dried wood is a whole other problem this isn’t going to really solve, it’s more to allow some fluctuations and movement for stable guitars during seasonal change. Some builders swear by it others don’t bother. Each have different reasons.

The second is just for additional comfort pushing the fret end ever so slightly back so there is less contact with your hand when you’re moving up and down. This isn’t really needed but with ball end frets they actually stick out more than regular triangle ends so it helps. It’s something you notice when you try a few guitars ball ends and feel the difference. Downside is it takes room away for the strings at the edge of the fretboard. Ball ends and back in a little more surface area so you can take it away again. One of those minuscule details but there are builders/techs very against ball ends because of this.

That lion heart is just terrible execution, it’s only supposed to be a small line.


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## SDMFVan (Jun 25, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> I did, I understand you tbh. 4k is a lot.
> At the same time I would take your guitar over any prs or suhr, if it didn't had spacing issues.
> Raw wood is like that and I prefer to see something like your guitar than a prs encased in plastic.
> 
> Excluding the serious build issues, half of the cosmetics you mention are non issues to me, even though almost everything seems redeemable, and they should have tried a bit more.



A screenshot of this post needs to be the reply to every "how do people still get scammed?" post from here on out. 

You'd take this janky pile of trash over any PRS or Suhr??


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 25, 2019)

SDMFVan said:


> A screenshot of this post needs to be the reply to every "how do people still get scammed?" post from here on out.
> 
> You'd take this janky pile of trash over any PRS or Suhr??



imagine thinking that a piece of wood is supposed to look like it's encased in resin and epoxy and that that is somehow better then a properly finished prs.


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

If it was properly made (without structural and fretwork issues) yes. This guitar is obviously flawed.
I don't mind the small stuff, if it's mostly handmade. Especially if the finish is thin and feeling natural.

Thing is, with some care most of the issues could be addressed, but the builder did nothing.
I also wouldn't call it a pile of trash, I will keep that designation for any ovepriced Fender, gnl, surh and so on... anything that is cheap by design.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 26, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> If it was properly made (without structural and fretwork issues) yes. This guitar is obviously flawed.
> I don't mind the small stuff, if it's mostly handmade. Especially if the finish is thin and feeling natural.
> 
> Thing is, with some care most of the issues could be addressed, but the builder did nothing.
> I also wouldn't call it a pile of trash, I will keep that designation for any ovepriced Fender, gnl, surh and so on... anything that is cheap by design.



So a $4k Suhr or Fender "pile of trash" is some-how "overpriced"? I don't think you understand business or guitar manufacturing. You do realize that the "overpriced" Fender you're talking about (at that price point) is prob a masterbuilt custom shop guitar. So one master luthier worked on that guitar from start to finish - handcrafting, finishing, and inspecting it. You know, the exact same thing that home-made raw guitar above had?

The reason custom shop custom Gibsons, or Fender masterbuilt, or Framus masterbuilt, etc are "overpriced" is because they are literally being built the same exact way ViK, Daemoness, Oni, whatever that monstrosity above is, etc.

The reason a Knaggs guitar is $3-4k is because you're getting a guitar from the guy that was the PRS masterbuilder. When you get a $3k Mike Lipe guitar, you're getting a LACS custom shop guitar from _the _man himself. When you get something from BRJ you're getting a... wait... nevermind. Anyways, you get my point. Or most likely, not.

99% of the Fender/Gibson/etc complaints about those guitars being too expensive are BS anyways (including yours). A MIJ Ibby is now $1500-$3k.

https://work.chron.com/average-income-luthier-26719.html
Also, the average luthier in US makes $20-24/hour (I suspect MIJ is similar). I couldn't find it, but I wonder what an Indonesian luthier makes? Companies like Cort moved production there because Korea had organized unions and wanted higher wages. So should US companies pay their luthiers competitively to compensate?

tl;dr derp.


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

Yes having a master luthier starring at a cnc machine is tough work... It's very hard to sand and screw 2 finished pieces of wood together...
I hope you understand that all big companies work with cnc's that essentially spit out guitar kits ready for assembly. This has nothing to do with luthiery. Small builders can have various ways of doing things, and more often than not, are legit.

But hey, it's not like I have ever been involved with the making of an electric guitar.
Fun fact, the raw materials and parts of the 2nd build are more expensive than what I payed for my Gibby new.
I also haven't mentioned any price point in the post above. Just what I believe every fender style guitar to be.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 26, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> cnc's that essentially spit out guitar kits ready for assembly





*But really, let's try to keep this on topic. While I wasn't too keen on this thread originally, it's been okay until recently. I'd hate to have to nuke it. *


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

Yes I forgot, sanding is difficult^^


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## diagrammatiks (Jun 26, 2019)

USMarine75 said:


> So a $4k Suhr or Fender "pile of trash" is some-how "overpriced"? I don't think you understand business or guitar manufacturing. You do realize that the "overpriced" Fender you're talking about (at that price point) is prob a masterbuilt custom shop guitar. So one master luthier worked on that guitar from start to finish - handcrafting, finishing, and inspecting it. You know, the exact same thing that home-made raw guitar above had?
> 
> The reason custom shop custom Gibsons, or Fender masterbuilt, or Framus masterbuilt, etc are "overpriced" is because they are literally being built the same exact way ViK, Daemoness, Oni, whatever that monstrosity above is, etc.
> 
> ...




sometimes you just gotta give up cuz you realize you are arguing with a special kind of genius.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 26, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> Yes I forgot, sanding is difficult^^



I remember now that we've had this conversation before. 

I've posted a rather lengthy, yet precise explanation of what goes into modern (CNC aided) guitar building written by someone who I'd consider to be one of the best living builders, and probably one of the best ever as far as technical ability and proficiency at fine detail work that most shops farm out. 

If it makes you more comfortable to distill that down to "sanding" that's fine.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 26, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> *But really, let's try to keep this on topic. While I wasn't too keen on this thread originally, it's been okay until recently. I'd hate to have to nuke it. *



Can I apply for a 24 hour waiver? Or can you split the thread? This is pure comedy gold.

BTW... Shadowexploder = Ed Roman? You be the judge:
http://www.edroman.com/rants/cncmachines.htm


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

Max indeed.
I'm not trying to look down on the process, as I partially have built some stuff like that.
But it's much much easier than doing it entirely by hand.

I never commented on any price point.


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

USMarine75 said:


> Can I apply for a 24 hour waiver? Or can you split the thread? This is pure comedy gold.
> 
> BTW... Shadowexploder = Ed Roman? You be the judge:
> http://www.edroman.com/rants/cncmachines.htm



Check google for factory tours.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 26, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> I also wouldn't call it a *pile of trash*, I will keep that designation for any *ovepriced* Fender, gnl, surh and so on.





Shadow Explorer said:


> I'm not trying to look down on the process
> 
> I never commented on any price point.


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

There is not a pricepoint set,just what I belive most to be, but in the context of the tread,my wrong.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 26, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> I did, I understand you tbh. 4k is a lot.
> At the same time I would take your guitar over any prs or suhr, if it didn't had spacing issues.


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

That's taking my comment out of context considering the last posts, don't you think?
At this point I think you just want to comment something back. No point in arguing like that.


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## USMarine75 (Jun 26, 2019)

Shadow Explorer said:


> That's taking my comment out of context considering the last posts, don't you think?
> At this point I think you just want to comment something back. No point in arguing like that.



OK... I'll play.

You were talking about the quality of a $4k guitar. You then referenced other brands. I compared apples to apples: $4k worth of that thing and $4k worth of Suhr, Gibson, Fender, etc. (Was I supposed to compare a $4k custom monstrosity to an overpriced $400 Fender?)


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## Shadow Explorer (Jun 26, 2019)

I just said would prefer this one if it was done ok, to something made in a production environment. I could have phrased it much better, that I agree. 

I see more value in something that is hand made. Than something made in cnc or a pin router. Yet I do both to some extent, still learning the hand made part.

I strongly dislike fender like guitars, of course I would get a gibson over it, or something else, but still if this was done ok, it would be nice, wouldn't it?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jun 26, 2019)

Alright, let's move on fellas.


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## KnightBrolaire (Aug 21, 2019)

one more to add to the hall of shame: steiner kraus guitars.

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/be-careful-with-steiner-kraus-guitars.337380/page-6#post-5039890


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## khm (Aug 22, 2019)

Flappydoodle said:


> Agreed. I contacted two legit builders recently. Carillion was one. Feline guitars was the other. Both have good reputations as far as I know.
> 
> Feline simply never replied to 3 separate emails (one per month). I understand being busy, or missing emails occasionally. But they aren't *that* busy that they can't respond to simply requests. They chose to ignore it. Maybe they're so successful that they don't need new customers. Or maybe you need the secret handshake to ask questions about the B6.
> 
> ...




I believe Chris has closed his order books anyway at the moment, as he was far behind on builds and is trying to catch up. Its a shame he didn't reply or get back to you, but I do respect the fact he is now getting things in order without taking more deposits.



narad said:


> Building other people's designs is very time-consuming.



Feline - I have known Jon for years, and have never had any issues with getting in contact - but I have always phoned or walked into the shop. I think sometimes people seem to think he only makes the Black Machines, but he is very busy and successful with his own builds (which are exceptional) as well as repair / mods as well - the black machines only make up a small part of his time / business. But his communication by email certainly does need to improve.


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## USMarine75 (Aug 22, 2019)

@Randy 
Sumbitch still hasnt shipped me this for free yet...


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 22, 2019)

khm said:


> I believe Chris has closed his order books anyway at the moment, as he was far behind on builds and is trying to catch up. Its a shame he didn't reply or get back to you, but I do respect the fact he is now getting things in order without taking more deposits



Just want to point out far behind for Chris is a few months. He just doesn’t like having a big back log from seeing other guys end up with customers waiting a couple of years for builds. Closing the book means you can have a clear plan in place with an estimate of when you can reopen for new orders and it frees up time spent on working with potential customers. More builders should do it although a lot of guys rely on the regular stream of deposits or don’t want to risk losing business.


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## khm (Aug 22, 2019)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Just want to point out far behind for Chris is a few months. He just doesn’t like having a big back log from seeing other guys end up with customers waiting a couple of years for builds. Closing the book means you can have a clear plan in place with an estimate of when you can reopen for new orders and it frees up time spent on working with potential customers. More builders should do it although a lot of guys rely on the regular stream of deposits or don’t want to risk losing business.



Indeed - I was just passing on the info from his official post. It is very refreshing to see a builder take this approach.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 5, 2019)

Bump to keep this thread at the forefront of everyone's minds. 
Steiner Kraus tried to escape the internet's wrath by changing their name to Mørk Verden. 
https://www.sevenstring.org/threads...steiner-kraus-its-all-confusing.337380/page-8


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## 777timesgod (Oct 11, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Steiner Kraus tried to escape the internet's wrath by changing their name to Mørk Verden.
> 
> 
> > In the internet era, did he think he would get away with that anyway? I don't get it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 11, 2019)

apparently he did think he'd get away with it. Most people aren't going to dive too deeply into researching a guitar company, which is how some of these douchebags keep getting work.


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## 777timesgod (Oct 15, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> apparently he did think he'd get away with it. Most people aren't going to dive too deeply into researching a guitar company, which is how some of these douchebags keep getting work.



You would think that before sending 3k (or more in some instance) one would bother with a google search. Then again, G.A.S. can mess up your judgment.


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## Soya (Oct 16, 2019)

Doesn't always work that simply anyway. I did all the research when I ordered an amp from Kaosamp, talked to previous customers, checked their physical location along with their bank and accounts to make sure it was legit and they still stole my money.


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## 777timesgod (Oct 17, 2019)

Soya said:


> Doesn't always work that simply anyway. I did all the research when I ordered an amp from Kaosamp, talked to previous customers, checked their physical location along with their bank and accounts to make sure it was legit and they still stole my money.



Of course, there will always be a risk, even if you buy the gear in person, it could fall apart or have a hidden flaw. I am just saying that in this case, the scammer could be revealed easily.


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