# Tremolo/Alternate Picking Masterclass



## Aethyrvorous (Sep 16, 2014)

Not that I am a master of the technique but I intend this thread to be a discussion on tremolo/alternate picking at the master level. I have scoured many threads on this website and UG, along with countless youtube videos in search of proper explanation of how to tremolo pick at very high speed, efficiently and cleanly. As far as threads go, not many have given good insight into the technical details of the technique besides "go slower and practice," which isnt that helpful when the technique hasnt been outlined in the first place. Here are the basics that I know:

Every good tremolo picker from death metal bands uses their wrist. No arm at all. These guys can play up to and over 240 bpm 16ths for an entire song. Some can even pick 2 and 3 strings at these tempos. Here are some videos demonstrating mastery of this technique. 
0:50 and on shows glimpses of the guitarist's right hand technique 

Same band

260-280 bpm
yes the playing in this vid is a little off, although this guy claims he can hit 320

this video is a little cleaner sounding, but the frame rate is so low that it looks like he is playing quarter notes so I didnt embed it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Me3nQYTs4
This video is very fuzzy and it is almost impossible to see what is going on but around 2:48 you an see what one right guitarist is doing with his hand. This band's entire album is full of tremolo picking around and above 230 bpm


As you can see, it is very possible to pick at these speeds, but it seems to be a well kept secret as to how. Currently the best video Ive found actually outlining this technique properly is this one. 

In the video, he mentions the side to side movement of the wrist versus rotating the full arm. While I have seen many players use the side to side motion, I have had bad luck with it since it gave me tendinitis (or something like tendinitis, Im not entirely sure). 

ALSO, I am aware of the circle/scalpel/sarod picking technique seen here

I do plan on developing this technique as well and I have seen a few decent tutorials for it, but theres no way for this technique to cover multiple strings, so for the moment Im not interested in it.


All this said if anyone has some level of expertise with the technique or knows videos that specifically give details into picking from the wrist and building up to these speeds, this is the place to share it for me and anyone else interested in developing this elite technique.


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## noUser01 (Sep 16, 2014)

I've been messing with this a lot more lately as well, thanks for making this thread.

I have recently tried practicing with my arm instead, but not moving it at the elbow rather, but using pronation of the forearm with a slight bit of wrist movement too. As redstone here will tell you, it uses much less energy. As for speed I'm at a medium-fast tempo with it right now, will take time to see how fast I can get it. Perhaps I should explore both the forearm pronation and wrist techniques separately now that I've watched these videos and see how many guys prefer wrist.

I did a lesson with Jason Richardson the other day, and if you know any of the old Chelsea Grin stuff you know there's lots of fast trem picking in it. He uses a very similar technique to his picking technique which - lining up with your statements - is basically all wrist as well. His tremolo picking is insanely consistent and he picks rather hard too. Just some interesting information to think about.


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## redstone (Sep 16, 2014)

First guitarist uses a combination of diving ulnar deviation and rising wrist extension.
Second guitarist uses a combination of rising ulnar deviation and diving wrist flexion. He plays way slower than he thinks he plays.
3rd guitarist I can't tell.
4th guitarist uses a combination of diving pronation and rising wrist extension. So his main motion comes from the elbow. You cannot rotate the wrist. Rotation comes from the elbow.
Last guitarist uses the same technique as 4th guitarist + rising pronation / diving wrist flexion + thumb. Circle/sarod/scalpel don't exist.

I plan to explain all in detail on youtube but still has no time for that. Soon.. Just something important to remember : there's neither one nor an infinity of wrist picking techniques, only 4 (viable). Half of them involve the rotation of the elbow. All involve the wrist flexion/extension. All allow to tremolo pick at 240bpm.


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## noUser01 (Sep 16, 2014)

Side note, the playing in video 3 is... not good. Don't aim for that.

I don't like putting alternate picking and tremolo picking in the same category either. Maybe the single string technique is the same but there are some things that aren't quite the same. Tremolo picking for example is also done across several strings at once (black metal style) and therefore requires different technique. Another example is that I tremolo pick harder than I alternate pick (for leads) because I prefer the two tones that way. Again, this requires slightly different techniques.

Anyways, don't like the categories but as long as we all understand what we're talking about and no one gets the wrong idea.


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 16, 2014)

redstone said:


> First guitarist uses a combination of diving ulnar deviation and rising wrist extension.
> Second guitarist uses a combination of rising ulnar deviation and diving wrist flexion. He plays way slower than he thinks he plays.
> 3rd guitarist I can't tell.
> 4th guitarist uses a combination of diving pronation and rising wrist extension. So his main motion comes from the elbow. You cannot rotate the wrist. Rotation comes from the elbow.
> ...



You are right about most of this, although the term "rising" lacks reference and needs some more explanation (video would be VERY appreciated whenever you have the time), especially for radius ulnar rotation at the elbow. I understand the technique that the 4th guitarist is using is from the elbow considering its the easiest technique for me at the moment, but it is very hard to control. I wish I could get better footage of the 3rd guitarist because his technique is incredible. Also circle/sarod/scalpel DO exist. Cirlce picking is the motion involving movement of the thumb and pointer finger. It usually isnt exclusive, but it is a technique. I have no idea where the term "sarod" comes from and I dont care to look it up but from what Ive seen it is the same as circle picking. Scalpel revers to the angle of the pick, which is slightly irrelevant since the pick obviously needs to be angled for these techniques. 
Seen here in combination with radius ulnar deviation


While I didnt include any videos showing it, what do you think of pure radius ulnar deviation? Is it dangerous from long time use? I got tendinitis because I used it with my wrist turned very far to the radial side.

ALSO, more videos demonstrating potential techniques


ALSO ALSO
a picture explaining technical terms involving wrist movement for the curious


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## noUser01 (Sep 16, 2014)

Aethyrvorous said:


> ALSO ALSO
> a picture explaining technical terms involving wrist movement for the curious



Nice. More detail if anyone needs: Anatomical terms of motion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## redstone (Sep 16, 2014)

Most ? 

Rising = the said motion strikes the string from below to above the strings plane. Diving is the opposite.

Circle picking doesn't exist and here's why : when one knows what techniques he's using, he doesn't use such misleading terms. There's no official definition so far.. Anyways, there's no point doing circles to master inside and outside picking. If it's a viable technique, it's not circular but pendular. 

Also, if the scalpel thing is the negative pick angle grip, then it isn't a technique. Picking techniques are combinations of movements.. Changing the grip can just make some techniques easier, it's not a technique by itself.

Wrist deviation as the main striking motion is not dangerous, though more exhausting than pronosupination. Yes, it's better to stop the radial deviation at the neutral wrist angle (0°). But it depends on your morphology. Some can afford going further (shawn lane). But pure deviation picking cannot work. You cannot change strings whenever you want with only one lateral motion.


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 16, 2014)

redstone said:


> Most ?
> 
> Rising = the said motion strikes the string from below to above the strings plane. Diving is the opposite.
> 
> ...



Sure, Im not going to debate about sarod picking

Do you know of any good instructional videos on the tremolo technique?


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## Given To Fly (Sep 17, 2014)

Sarod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I recently looked to the mandolin for ideas on alternate picking. Mandolinists use "mandolin picks," so I bought one, a V-Pick Tremolo Pointed Mandolin Pick to be exact. I'll just say this mandolin pick inspires a more precise and efficient way of attacking the string...almost to the point that every other pick feels like a clumsy, jagged rock.  *A pick is no substitute for practice or proper technique*, but sometimes the right tool at the right time can elevate your playing. Sometimes, you have to think outside the box to find that tool, though a mandolin pick is not that far outside the guitar playing box.


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## redstone (Sep 17, 2014)

Aethyrvorous said:


> Sure, Im not going to debate about sarod picking
> 
> Do you know of any good instructional videos on the tremolo technique?



Nope ^^

Sarod players traditionally use the rising pronation + diving wrist flexion, it's not specific to their instrument.


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## Maniacal (Sep 17, 2014)

This Sol 2183 song has bursts of 264bpm 16ths (3.08 mainly), pretty challenging stuff. I really think the key to building speed is to focus on endurance first... playing for long periods of time and refining whatever technique you use. Small movements, totally relaxed, no dipping all play a massive part in going from 180/200 into the 240+ realm. 

On a good day I am hitting 270 for fairly small bursts, but that really isn't the point for me. The main benefit of being able to hit such speeds is that playing at slower tempos is a relatively stress free ordeal.


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## Drew (Sep 17, 2014)

Given To Fly said:


> Sarod - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I recently looked to the mandolin for ideas on alternate picking. Mandolinists use "mandolin picks," so I bought one, a V-Pick Tremolo Pointed Mandolin Pick to be exact. I'll just say this mandolin pick inspires a more precise and efficient way of attacking the string...almost to the point that every other pick feels like a clumsy, jagged rock.  *A pick is no substitute for practice or proper technique*, but sometimes the right tool at the right time can elevate your playing. Sometimes, you have to think outside the box to find that tool, though a mandolin pick is not that far outside the guitar playing box.



That's actually not THAT different from what I already use - these, in 1.0mm thickness: 

Dunlop Manufacturing :: Guitar Picks :: :: Tortex® Pitch Black Jazz III

I change up gauges and materials every couple years, it seems, but I've been pretty consistent on jazz-sized picks since college (which was an embarrassingly long time ago), and while I like the red Jazz IIIs and the Ultex picks I've tried, I do seem to get in pretty well with Tortex. A fresh one has enough "grab" on the string to get a clear articulation, they hold up well enough, and are cheap enough that I can just buy a bag of 72 every so often and not worry about how many I lose/wear down. 

Turns out they also make a round tip version, which I know because I accidentally bought them. Picture this, but with a full size pick's tip. It's WEIRD, lol. Sounds pretty good, actually, especially fairly parallel to the string where you get a clear, clean attack, but it felt way too unnatural to me.


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 17, 2014)

redstone said:


> Nope ^^
> 
> Sarod players traditionally use the rising pronation + diving wrist flexion, it's not specific to their instrument.



Sure, Im not talking about Sarod, I was wondering if you had any good videos explaining tremolo picking from the wrist


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## redstone (Sep 18, 2014)

Sorry it was two separate answers ; I don't know any good flat picking video (sad but true !)


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## starslight (Sep 20, 2014)

I think the first forty minutes very nicely break down all the different components of picking technique. If you want to skip around, there are time stamps in the description of the YT video.


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## redstone (Sep 20, 2014)

Minute 43-44 : Troy alternates between rising and diving pronation, + elbow flex/ext to change strings. Unlike what he thinks, it's a pure elbow technique, ironically. Such strategy limits his string skipping frequency, ok for 3 and 2 nps but not 1. Troy's missing the most important. Btw Paul Gilbert doesn't use the thumb to increase his string skipping freq.


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 20, 2014)

I'll try to watch that whole video.

At the moment Im having a lot of success using pure radius ulna pronation/supination, although my middle finger keeps hitting the strings. 

I am also working on discovering the technique used by Greg form Vornagar (red video) 





It looks like he has a bit of a hitchhikers thumb, allowing him to angle the pick actually parallel to the way I angle my pick with my pronation technique. I think he also uses a lot of wrist flexion, but I cant really be sure at the moment.

I notice that Troy used this grip around 18 minutes in that video


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## Bilbone Shaggins (Sep 22, 2014)

Do you guys have any intuitions about whether it would be ridiculous to try to develop high-speed tremolo picking using only deviations (radial and ulnar, in the image several posts above)?


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 22, 2014)

Bilbone Shaggins said:


> Do you guys have any intuitions about whether it would be ridiculous to try to develop high-speed tremolo picking using only deviations (radial and ulnar, in the image several posts above)?



This is a question I would like answered as well, but from what I've seen it appears that almost everyone uses a bit of deviation in their technique. My problem is that deviation is slow and awkward and my tendinitis has not yet healed.


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## redstone (Sep 23, 2014)

Yes you can, it isn't slow (shawn, guthrie, the guy in maniacal's post above..)

Among electric guitar players labelled as wrist players, probably about 1/3 of them might use it as their main motion (the one that strike and change strings), and 1/2 might not use it at all.

If you decide to use it as your main motion, this

---D-
-U---

will be your main obstacle and you can easily hurt yourself if you don't know how to overcome it.


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## Maniacal (Sep 23, 2014)

That is me in the video. 

Anyway, wrist picking might seem slow at first but once you work on reducing your picking movements and not dipping into the string you will be amazed how much faster you are. 

I always demonstrate this example to students. Picking at my top speed with big movements I can play at about 120 16ths, as I gradually refine the technique I hit 200bpm+. Work on minimising movement and saving energy.


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 23, 2014)

Im sure deviation can become fast, but at the start it's dismally slow mostly because it's less natural than flexion or pro/supination. When my wrists are healed I will try it again, but right now I'm really interested in developing a flexion technique since Im naturally a drummer who plays lots of blast beats and my hands are already faster than normal for flexion and pro/supination.


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## redstone (Sep 24, 2014)

Deviation is the easiest way to develop quickly your tremolo speed. You can start directly fast (small bursts) then work on endurance and string changing at 10-11nps but the process is full of counterintuitive choices (working on higher pitched strings first to get the right posture, reversed flex/ext behavior, getting rid of the downward inside picking at last..).


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## TeeWX (Sep 24, 2014)

redstone said:


> Deviation is the easiest way to develop quickly your tremolo speed. You can start directly fast (small bursts) then work on endurance and string changing at 10-11nps but the process is full of counterintuitive choices (working on higher pitched strings first to get the right posture, reversed flex/ext behavior, getting rid of the downward inside picking at last..).



Can you explain what you mean by "getting rid of the downward inside picking"? I use deviation as the main motion in my tremolo picking, and am interested.

The awkward thing for me is a string change while descending, because the motion is upwards, while the next pick is down. String changing in general while tremolo picking is it's own beast.


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## redstone (Sep 24, 2014)

By "getting rid of it at last" I mean to master it after the upward inside picking and up/downward outside picking. I'm still new to that technique but here are the results after 14-15 months Video - TinyPic - Hébergement gratuit d'images, partage de photos et hébergement de vidéos , the issue is to add an impetus on the wrist extension while keeping the ulnar impetus. Most rising ulnar dev players can't do it because we naturally tend to extend the wrist when we need to flex it, or we put the 2nd impetus on the wrist flexion, or the radial dev. I'll make step by step tutorials.. asap.


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## Maniacal (Sep 24, 2014)

Weird technique. Doesn't seem fast or efficient? Perhaps I am missing the point?


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## redstone (Sep 24, 2014)

It's Shawn Lane's technique. 12nps downward 2 notes per string starting with a downstroke is already fast for a rising ulnar dev player, you won't find much people doing it. It's as fast as Govan can get.

The point is to quickly generate a full pendular motion, in order to alt pick one note per string at very high speed, then use it as a shortcut to the rising pronation technique.


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## Gregory Frus (Sep 24, 2014)

Last month I was fortunate enough to be in a group lesson with a guy named Mike Walsh out of Chicago. He demonstrated his technique. All arm (mainly lower arm). No wrist, no twisting. At lower speeds he will use the wrist, as he gets faster he transitions from less wrist to more arm. Without warming up, he set the metronome to 300 bpm and ripped out 16ths. Tremelo, sweep, scale sequences, string skipping. Was amazing to see. I have no video proof and I'm not anywhere near good enough to demonstrate. But this is what I practice.


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## pahulkster (Sep 25, 2014)

The Speed Kills videos have lots of focus on this. MAB is a master, and really breaks things down. He is a little weird at times, but definitely worth checking out.


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## Maniacal (Sep 25, 2014)

12nps isn't very quick for 2nps playing, I imagine Govan could play considerably faster than that if he needed to. What are the benefits to this technique you are using? I can play quicker than that using the good old wrist technique so I am curious why you are doing it this way.


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## redstone (Sep 25, 2014)

Remember, it's a 15 months old technique to me (starting deviation from scratch), I'm just limited by lack of practice, the learning curve should be the same as Shawn. 2 notes per string starting with an upstroke is much easier btw.

The benefit is that one can alt pick 1 note per string just as fast, and potentially up to 16+nps. Govan is very good at avoiding consecutive downward inside picks when speeding up. Petrucci has the same issue, he's caped at 12-13nps

There's not one good old wrist technique, actually I saw you using the same technique here and there, sometimes you extend the wrist, sometimes you supinate, if you record a fast downward 2nps lick starting with an upstroke, headstock pointing at 10-11h, I might be able to tell you exactly how you proceed (if you're curious about it).


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## Maniacal (Sep 25, 2014)

Interesting. I guess I used this approach without really thinking about it, my body just adapted to cope with the speeds. 

So you are able to pick a single string really fast too? Totally relaxed?


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## redstone (Sep 25, 2014)

I still lack endurance but yes, like 90% relaxed I'd say, upward is 100% relaxed and faster (since the wrist extension impetus goes upward).


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## Aethyrvorous (Sep 25, 2014)

Gregory Frus said:


> Last month I was fortunate enough to be in a group lesson with a guy named Mike Walsh out of Chicago. He demonstrated his technique. All arm (mainly lower arm). No wrist, no twisting. At lower speeds he will use the wrist, as he gets faster he transitions from less wrist to more arm. Without warming up, he set the metronome to 300 bpm and ripped out 16ths. Tremelo, sweep, scale sequences, string skipping. Was amazing to see. I have no video proof and I'm not anywhere near good enough to demonstrate. But this is what I practice.



Its not an impossible to use technique, but full arm takes far more energy than wrist. The same could be said about guys like Mike Mangini who broke the single stroke record using his arm-seizure technique, but its a hard technique to use for a whole song, or set. Also, while its not at all impossible, 300 bpm 16ths full arm is pretty hard to do, triplets on the other hand, are not. Im not calling bs but I would say that the wrist technique is much more beneficial in the long run do to its level of control and economy of motion.


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## Bilbone Shaggins (Sep 26, 2014)

Which technique is the least likely to lead to injury in the long run?


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## Maniacal (Sep 27, 2014)

Relaxed wrist picking ^


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## redstone (Sep 27, 2014)

Pronosupination


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## Gregory Frus (Sep 27, 2014)

Aethyrvorous said:


> Its not an impossible to use technique, but full arm takes far more energy than wrist. The same could be said about guys like Mike Mangini who broke the single stroke record using his arm-seizure technique, but its a hard technique to use for a whole song, or set. Also, while its not at all impossible, 300 bpm 16ths full arm is pretty hard to do, triplets on the other hand, are not. Im not calling bs but I would say that the wrist technique is much more beneficial in the long run do to its level of control and economy of motion.



Agreed, it does take a lot of energy. I was told until I get control the arm technique will be quite fatiguing. I'm working both aspects.
Great discussion!!


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## Bilbone Shaggins (Sep 27, 2014)

Maniacal said:


> Relaxed wrist picking ^


So according to Maniacal, it's pure deviation (for safest technique for avoiding tendonitis), while according to Redstone it's pronation/supination... Deviation fits most closely with how I already play. It seems pronation/supination would put a lot of extra stress on the arm/elbow?


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## redstone (Sep 28, 2014)

Most wrist muscles are tied to the elbow ; you won't get a tennis elbow from pronosupinating but moving your wrist (extensor carpi radialis brevis). Pronosupination has the best stress/amplitude ratio imho.

But my actual answer is to learn both !


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## Gothic Headhunter (Oct 11, 2014)

Why you guys say it's better to keep your tremolo technique/grip close to your other picking techniques, or just pick whichever works best for each individual exercise? Like, if my tremolo technique is pretty different from say, my legato or sweeping techniques, should I try to make them similar to be able to switch between them easier or just not worry about it?


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## Maniacal (Oct 12, 2014)

It makes sense to keep your picking hand in a similar position all of the time so you can easily switch and combine techniques.


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## redstone (Oct 12, 2014)

Yes, yes and no, depends on the means and the ends.


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## Aethyrvorous (Oct 12, 2014)

Gothic Headhunter said:


> Why you guys say it's better to keep your tremolo technique/grip close to your other picking techniques, or just pick whichever works best for each individual exercise? Like, if my tremolo technique is pretty different from say, my legato or sweeping techniques, should I try to make them similar to be able to switch between them easier or just not worry about it?



You probably want your grip on the pick to stay the same, but otherwise trem picking and sweeping are very different techniques. Sweeps and legato are very left hand dependent while trem picking is right hand dependent. Dont think to hard and just do what feels right AND relaxed.


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## Gothic Headhunter (Oct 13, 2014)

Yeah, I think the problem is that my hand really isn't relaxed when I'm doing tremolo stuff, so my grip and wrist position are different from normal. I've been trying to play more relaxed and actually pay attention to my playing and it seems to be helping.


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## StrongEverything (Oct 24, 2014)

Why would someone want to pick 16ths at 240 bpm? You end up sounding like a Nintendo console.


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## asher (Oct 24, 2014)

StrongEverything said:


> Why would someone want to pick 16ths at 240 bpm? You end up sounding like a Nintendo console.


 

Maybe he wants to sound like a Nintendo console.


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## Aethyrvorous (Oct 25, 2014)

StrongEverything said:


> Why would someone want to pick 16ths at 240 bpm? You end up sounding like a Nintendo console.



This sound like Nintendo to you?


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## DarkWolfXV (Oct 29, 2014)

StrongEverything said:


> Why would someone want to pick 16ths at 240 bpm? You end up sounding like a Nintendo console.



This kind of people... 

Every... ....ing... time...


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## asher (Oct 29, 2014)

It's ok guys, he's been banninated.


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