# Brexit: what will it do to guitar prices in Britain?



## fps (Sep 11, 2020)

Is this eventually going to lead, for instance, to US made guitars coming into Britain cheaper? Or will they be more expensive? Thoughts?


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 11, 2020)

there's almost no chance that Brexit is going to make anything cheaper for you.


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 11, 2020)

imagine anything that makes you happy

brexit will do the opposite of that


----------



## sleewell (Sep 11, 2020)

yeah but brown people


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 11, 2020)

Someone explain me that brown people thing I've now seen twice today about Brexit, thanks. 

On to the original topic: guitars will most likely get more expensive, because all things considered, the £ is also going to drop severely, especially against the €. (Which has gained quite a bit of value against the $ recently). Even if those don't get taxed to hell, the weak currency will likely make the guitars more expensive.


----------



## TimSE (Sep 11, 2020)

I run a retail business here in UK (not music) and I do importing for some products and yeah, Brexit is going to hurt like hell. Everything is going to cost more, whether because it's made here and we have far higher labour costs across the board, or parts and sourcing raw materials will become more expensive, and importing will cost more and harder to do which means it will be slower.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 11, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Someone explain me that brown people thing I've now seen twice today about Brexit, thanks.
> 
> On to the original topic: guitars will most likely get more expensive, because all things considered, the £ is also going to drop severely, especially against the €. (Which has gained quite a bit of value against the $ recently). Even if those don't get taxed to hell, the weak currency will likely make the guitars more expensive.


too many brown people in the eu.


----------



## mbardu (Sep 11, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> too many brown people in the eu.



...is the reason why boomers voted to leave


----------



## StevenC (Sep 11, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Someone explain me that brown people thing I've now seen twice today about Brexit, thanks.
> 
> On to the original topic: guitars will most likely get more expensive, because all things considered, the £ is also going to drop severely, especially against the €. (Which has gained quite a bit of value against the $ recently). Even if those don't get taxed to hell, the weak currency will likely make the guitars more expensive.


Most people here voted because of the brown people coming into the UK from the EU. There was a big push for taking back our borders, and it wasn't because of white people from France or Poland.

On topic: there was just a free trade deal announced with Japan so maybe Ibanezes are about to get cheaper.


----------



## sym30l1c (Sep 11, 2020)

We're fucked. "Cheaper" will apply only to those rich brexiter fucks with their money in tax havens that now can escape EU regulations.


----------



## fps (Sep 11, 2020)

TimSE said:


> I run a retail business here in UK (not music) and I do importing for some products and yeah, Brexit is going to hurt like hell. Everything is going to cost more, whether because it's made here and we have far higher labour costs across the board, or parts and sourcing raw materials will become more expensive, and importing will cost more and harder to do which means it will be slower.



Ty does that include importing from US and are you seeing that being long term or short term?


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 11, 2020)

fps said:


> Ty does that include importing from US and are you seeing that being long term or short term?


It's going to be long term. Remember that as bad as Brexit was going to be for the economy we just had another massive dip due to Covid-19.

So while we're all fighting to stay afloat with Covid, the end of the transition period December 31st 2020 is fast approaching, and I haven't heard many plans at all on what's going to be happening.

Not to be a pessimist but things don't look good considering the massive amount of debt we've just had to take on.


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 11, 2020)

The UK is well on its way to being a Russia-style kleptocracy, and the US isn't far behind. The only people who benefit from this stuff are the mega-rich.


----------



## mbardu (Sep 11, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> The UK is well on its way to being a Russia-style kleptocracy, and the US isn't far behind. The only people who benefit from this stuff are the mega-rich.



The US_ isn't far behind _?
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha


----------



## TimSE (Sep 11, 2020)

fps said:


> Ty does that include importing from US and are you seeing that being long term or short term?



Well know one knows, but the way I think about it: Consider how long its taken to get Brexit to even happen... It'll likely take a generation to get back to how we have things now.


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 11, 2020)

mbardu said:


> The US_ isn't far behind _?
> Hahahahahahahahahahahaha



LET ME HAVE THIS


----------



## Adieu (Sep 11, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> too many brown people in the eu.



????

I was under the impression that it was the UK that was far browner than the mainland though.... hell, the UK has a surprising number of prominent and successful politicians of Indian/Pakistani descent

Or are such minor details irrelevant in the age of post-truth politics???


----------



## mbardu (Sep 11, 2020)

Adieu said:


> ????
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the UK that was far browner than the mainland though.... hell, the UK has a surprising number of prominent and successful politicians of Indian/Pakistani descent
> 
> *Or are such minor details irrelevant in the age of post-truth politics*???



You answered your own question


----------



## ClownShoes (Sep 12, 2020)

fps said:


> Is this eventually going to lead, for instance, to US made guitars coming into Britain cheaper?


----------



## Winspear (Sep 12, 2020)

I feel like almost everything already comes from outside Europe anyway? I also never really saw the issue with import tax - as yes the import bill stings when you're seeing the VAT free pricetag first - but that same % is tagged onto retail price of products that originate in the EU (unless the company is tiny). 
Of course used purchases from Europeans will be impacted significantly by VAT but I'm not sure about retail?

All this said I have no idea what I'm talking about when it comes to actual economics so


----------



## Edika (Sep 12, 2020)

I'd be more interested on seeing how prices on food and every day commodities increase. I mean guitars are nice but you can't eat them or wear them.

It wasn't only brown people but other EU immigrants. While London and the big cities are multicultural the rest of the UK is mainly white and older in age. Plus the narrative of the Tory party has always been that there is unchecked immigration and the foreigners took our jobs. The scapegoat failed politicians use to distract the masses from their incompetence and public fund stealing.


----------



## Merrekof (Sep 12, 2020)

Edika said:


> I'd be more interested on seeing how prices on food and every day commodities increase. I mean guitars are nice but you can't eat them or wear them.
> 
> It wasn't only brown people but other EU immigrants. While London and the big cities are multicultural the rest of the UK is mainly white and older in age. Plus the narrative of the Tory party has always been that there is unchecked immigration and the foreigners took our jobs. The scapegoat failed politicians use to distract the masses from their incompetence and public fund stealing.


Came to say something along the lines of this. I'd add the middle east refugee crisis as well. That is something a lot of right wing parties use in Europe to gain popularity. And it works.

And "they took our jobs" is bullshit. Western Europeans are lazy, we want 9 to 5 jobs with minimum effort and a big paycheck or we sit at home waiting for a good job offer. This leads to a shortage of workers in multiple areas. Construction workers, agricultural workers, nurses and truck drivers are highly sought after because of above mentioned reasons.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Sep 12, 2020)

35-40% of our food export goes to UK alone. If UK decides to import cheaper food from South America or NZ then Ireland will be hit hard. We have become so dependant on the UK that we are going to be in a much worse position. We are already a generation or two away from thousands of abandoned farms because of how bad the industry has got. Pair that with the fallout of Brexit and we are heading into some scary times for the economy.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

Lorcan Ward said:


> 35-40% of our food export goes to UK alone. If UK decides to import cheaper food from South America or NZ then Ireland will be hit hard. We have become so dependant on the UK that we are going to be in a much worse position. We are already a generation or two away from thousands of abandoned farms because of how bad the industry has got. Pair that with the fallout of Brexit and we are heading into some scary times for the economy.



Ireland?

If the US premium dairy market is any indication, Irish farm products are just a rebrand away from roaring success in overseas markets


----------



## Edika (Sep 12, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> Came to say something along the lines of this. I'd add the middle east refugee crisis as well. That is something a lot of right wing parties use in Europe to gain popularity. And it works.
> 
> And "they took our jobs" is bullshit. Western Europeans are lazy, we want 9 to 5 jobs with minimum effort and a big paycheck or we sit at home waiting for a good job offer. This leads to a shortage of workers in multiple areas. Construction workers, agricultural workers, nurses and truck drivers are highly sought after because of above mentioned reasons.



Yeah the refugee crisis was one of the catalysts to start the whole Brexit ball rolling. The mentality of EU forcing them to take refugees, do this or do that and the supposedly confining regulations (even though those regulations actually protected them I almost all aspects of life) was the final nail in the coffin.

I can't wait for the time when any imported fruit and vegetable (almost all that is) will cost so much that we'll see scurvy coming back. Not that salaries will increase in proportion with the recession that will go on. Because if they think there's recession now oh just wait.

I don't agree that Western Europeans are lazy and that is the cause. It's not outlandish to think that people can work for 8 hours and still have some free time to pass with their families and friends. The problem is that regular jobs pay like shit and you can hardly make ends meet. Even higher paying jobs are not paying that well in comparison with the cost of living. Some do but most don't. I mean in the past you just needed a high school diploma and some technical 2 year courses to make more in comparison of what someone is making having a PhD and several years of experience. Let alone if you work as a nurse, in agriculture or construction.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

It might be a very temporary quirk of rapidly developing advanced countries undergoing a technological revolution while consuming the fruits of sweatshots and plantations from banana republics

If so, that was a once-off and isn't coming back. Unless of course tremendously bad shit happens the world over and miraculously passes by your little corner of the globe.

Let's face it, the 20th century was a historical anomaly. People who were born to oil lamps and horse carriages summoned Ubers to their nursing homes and esigned their wills.... that's not happening again.


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 12, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Let's face it, the 20th century was a historical anomaly. People who were born to oil lamps and horse carriages summoned Ubers to their nursing homes and esigned their wills.... that's not happening again.



Uh, from what I see, it will be happening again, and faster. The progress you describe mostly happened at the end of the century, and the biggest development (wireless) happened more in the 2000's than the premices we could see in the 90es where it was just basic phones. Technical progress is accelerating. Most of it we didn't foresee 30 years ago. All the cyberpunk RPGs featuring "the future" had super computers, but no wireless. You had to actually "jack in". If there's one thing I learned from life, it's that trying to predict how technology will evolve is a fun game, but that's all it is. Because you _won't_ see it coming.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Uh, from what I see, it will be happening again, and faster. The progress you describe mostly happened at the end of the century, and the biggest development (wireless) happened more in the 2000's than the premices we could see in the 90es where it was just basic phones. Technical progress is accelerating. Most of it we didn't foresee 30 years ago. All the cyberpunk RPGs featuring "the future" had super computers, but no wireless. You had to actually "jack in". If there's one thing I learned from life, it's that trying to predict how technology will evolve is a fun game, but that's all it is. Because you _won't_ see it coming.



Forget wireless

Electricity and internal combustion engines (actual implementation not first prototypes), mass media, etc., all that arrived in the 20th century.

And wireless IS illustrating how the era of rapid development is over for us. You can get better telecoms services and signal in Kenya than in Los Angeles.


----------



## fps (Sep 12, 2020)

vertigo08 said:


>



I'm well aware of the situation, especially in the short-term, and I don't need sarcasm or cheap comments, just don't post, cheers.


----------



## fps (Sep 12, 2020)

TimSE said:


> Well know one knows, but the way I think about it: Consider how long its taken to get Brexit to even happen... It'll likely take a generation to get back to how we have things now.



I doubt if there ever was a vote again it would be that any majority whatever changed the country's direction either, they'd make it 60-40 bare minimum I imagine.


----------



## fps (Sep 12, 2020)

StevenC said:


> Most people here voted because of the brown people coming into the UK from the EU. There was a big push for taking back our borders, and it wasn't because of white people from France or Poland.
> 
> On topic: there was just a free trade deal announced with Japan so maybe Ibanezes are about to get cheaper.



Yes these are the kinds of things I'm asking about, which is why comments like vertigo08's are so unhelpful. Unfortunately I'm not a huge Ibanez fan, but this could be good news for a lot of people! I also read about Andertons massively discounting their Mesa Boogie amps in the UK as the company is cutting out its middle men in distribution. Were this to happen with a lot of US companies to the UK, especially when distribution will presumably be up in the air post-Brexit (someone correct me I'm not in business and may be wrong), then US products may get cheaper in this respect even as the pound loses value. Or this may be unrelated to what's happening of course.


----------



## StevenC (Sep 12, 2020)

fps said:


> Yes these are the kinds of things I'm asking about, which is why comments like vertigo08's are so unhelpful.


Yeah, obviously the problem with Ibanez is that the European distributor is Meinl in Germany, so they're probably going to be more expensive unless there's a new distributor. But I guess it means it'll be easier to import Japanese guitars privately.


----------



## fps (Sep 12, 2020)

StevenC said:


> Yeah, obviously the problem with Ibanez is that the European distributor is Meinl in Germany, so they're probably going to be more expensive unless there's a new distributor. But I guess it means it'll be easier to import Japanese guitars privately.



OK, so long term there may be a new distributor re Britain, and the pound will fall and they'll be more expensive presumably. But if middle men were cut out there would be a better deal, however with smaller companies like Mesa Boogie that is possible and with bigger ones like Ibanez that seems deeply unlikely?


----------



## Supernaut (Sep 12, 2020)

Honestly - doesn't matter how many distribution deals come out of Brexit, if the pound gets weaker you get poorer.

Good luck buying a Kiesel after Brexit.


----------



## StevenC (Sep 12, 2020)

fps said:


> OK, so long term there may be a new distributor re Britain, and the pound will fall and they'll be more expensive presumably. But if middle men were cut out there would be a better deal, however with smaller companies like Mesa Boogie that is possible and with bigger ones like Ibanez that seems deeply unlikely?


I mean, there's a regional UK distributor for Meinl already but they suck pretty hard. Maybe some of the bigger store like Guitarguitar, Andertons et al could get together to distribute from Japan directly.

But as others have said, the pound will continue to be shit and get worse. So it doesn't matter how little tax there is on the import end, the guitars will take more working hours to afford overall. Today's 140,000Y guitars will go from being £1000 to £1400 in very short order once the pound starts collapsing.

Genuinely our best hope is that COVID-19's associated economic contraction will smooth the massive recession that Brexit will bring. Maybe it's no wonder the Tories are handling that so poorly too.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

Cheaper Marshalls and Celestions for the rest of us though!!!!

Go Brexit!!!! Whoohooo!!! That's quite enough of being a first world country for y'all!!!


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 12, 2020)

Adieu said:


> ????
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the UK that was far browner than the mainland though.... hell, the UK has a surprising number of prominent and successful politicians of Indian/Pakistani descent
> 
> Or are such minor details irrelevant in the age of post-truth politics???




The uk like many other countries is built off of People of Colour or immigrants from other countries, and like many other countries this only creates racial divide from people who are far


fps said:


> OK, so long term there may be a new distributor re Britain, and the pound will fall and they'll be more expensive presumably. But if middle men were cut out there would be a better deal, however with smaller companies like Mesa Boogie that is possible and with bigger ones like Ibanez that seems deeply unlikely?



When brexit happens I expect some smart UK distributors to pounce on the chance to make money. Because capitalism.


For example the the distributor for Schecter is in the UK so things will still be easily accessible for some companies as they can change distributors however this is still a massive undertaking and not something that will be done cheap or quick.


I think you’re worrying about the wrong things. American guitars aren’t suddenly going to get cheap, because the reason they’re expensive is not because there is an ocean between us. It’s because America is a developed country with wage limits they have to pay their employees X amount legally.


Asian guitars are cheap because these laws are different, labour is cheaper. 


When brexit hits it’s going to be good and bad for some people, and that’s the big factor here, people.


Things will get expensive but you still have people who will now be in a position to grow their business and make lots of money by becoming middle men for imports. 


There’s a reason distributors are used for every guitar company is not suddenly gonna take on their own distribution it’s a massive undertaking.


----------



## 1b4n3z (Sep 12, 2020)

It may be a double whammy for individuals such as us - buying guitars could well become more expensive and selling them (to Europe) relatively cheaper, due to exiting the VAT area


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 12, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Cheaper Marshalls and Celestions for the rest of us though!!!!
> 
> Go Brexit!!!! Whoohooo!!! That's quite enough of being a first world country for y'all!!!



what does china have to do with Brexit tho.


----------



## Musiscience (Sep 12, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> what does china have to do with Brexit tho.



I am fairly certain he is referring to the made in UK Celestion and Marshall. Where did he mention China?


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

Musiscience said:


> I am fairly certain he is referring to the made in UK Celestion and Marshall. Where did he mention China?



Maybe he's from the part of China where they put the "Made in UK" stickers on Marshall and Celestion products?


----------



## Musiscience (Sep 12, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Maybe he's from the part of China where they put the "Made in UK" stickers on Marshall and Celestion products?



Are they really doing that? Serious question. 

I know some of the Marshall range is made in China, but I was under the impression that at least some of their amps were still assembled in the UK. Maybe I'm wrong though.


----------



## fps (Sep 12, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Maybe he's from the part of China where they put the "Made in UK" stickers on Marshall and Celestion products?



Woah what? Is this one of those “assembled here made here” kinda things?


----------



## littlebadboy (Sep 12, 2020)

I'm in the US while my sister lives in the UK. She said one of the reasons for Brexit is the abuse of the Healthcare system. How true?

But... what about "brown people"? Kinda offensive.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> I'm in the US while my sister lives in the UK. She said one of the reasons for Brexit is the abuse of the Healthcare system. How true?
> 
> But... what about "brown people"? Kinda offensive.



Sounds suspicious

Although... I have heard that superconservative Ireland goes to the UK for their illegal-at-home abortions to the point that there's a popular euphemism like "she took the ferry to (some town I forget)" for an Irish girl heading to Britain for abortions


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 12, 2020)

Musiscience said:


> I am fairly certain he is referring to the made in UK Celestion and Marshall. Where did he mention China?



like the 3 percent of Marshall and celestial output still made in the uk? 

alrighty I guess.


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 12, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> I'm in the US while my sister lives in the UK. She said one of the reasons for Brexit is the abuse of the Healthcare system. How true?
> 
> But... what about "brown people"? Kinda offensive.


 Unsure in which way your sister means abuse but...


In the UK a lot of right wing leaning people call out our immigration policy and immigrants using our national health service. This is obviously to cause divide, and while there is a problem with illegal immigrants in some areas many more are legal and working various jobs that help keep the UK afloat from manual labour to doctors.

Both sides of the brexit campaign would talk about how they would save the NHS and after the vote it was found out that the party in power had already investigated selling off parts of our health service to private companies. A particular reason people don’t like brexit is because this obviously opens up trade talks and people DO NOT want our National health service being sold particularly when people like Donald Trump Show an interest.


The brown people comment is not really offensive if it’s more poking fun at the people who voted as there were some serious undertones of racism from the “leave EU” campaign. Things like “take back our country” which is obviously a dividing statement and an easy vote for any white racist. 


It’s an ironic statement though given our country is built of immigrants, people blame them for taking jobs but at the same time won’t be willing to work the jobs that immigrants do.


It’s racism pure and simple happens in every country. 


And it’s also the same politics as every other country. Every party is lying, as long as the rich stay rich it’s all okay.


----------



## fps (Sep 12, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> I'm in the US while my sister lives in the UK. She said one of the reasons for Brexit is the abuse of the Healthcare system. How true?
> 
> But... what about "brown people"? Kinda offensive.



Like, nonsense tbh. In the sense that it doesn’t really happen. But probably true as a reason some people voted for it.


----------



## StevenC (Sep 12, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> I'm in the US while my sister lives in the UK. She said one of the reasons for Brexit is the abuse of the Healthcare system. How true?
> 
> But... what about "brown people"? Kinda offensive.


A lot of bullshit about health tourism, which doesn't happen because the rest of the EU mostly has good healthcare systems. Except the Irish, there's is expensive as like a Daemoness because they build it with public money and then gift it to the church.


Adieu said:


> Sounds suspicious
> 
> Although... I have heard that superconservative Ireland goes to the UK for their illegal-at-home abortions to the point that there's a popular euphemism like "she took the ferry to (some town I forget)" for an Irish girl heading to Britain for abortions


I'm sure a lot of the southern Ireland members would object to this, because it is objectionable. ROI is arguably now more liberal than the UK. While the ferry to Liverpool thing used to happen, ROI have had abortion for a few years now. British ruled Northern Ireland only got abortions and gay marriage this year because our devolved government set some records for not going to work. In the last few years ROI has been moving away from being a theocracy, at least the population has been voting away from it.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 12, 2020)

StevenC said:


> A lot of bullshit about health tourism, which doesn't happen because the rest of the EU mostly has good healthcare systems. Except the Irish, there's is expensive as like a Daemoness because they build it with public money and then gift it to the church.
> 
> I'm sure a lot of the southern Ireland members would object to this, because it is objectionable. ROI is arguably now more liberal than the UK. While the ferry to Liverpool thing used to happen, ROI have had abortion for a few years now. British ruled Northern Ireland only got abortions and gay marriage this year because our devolved government set some records for not going to work. In the last few years ROI has been moving away from being a theocracy, at least the population has been voting away from it.




...ok so I watched some TV show from a few years back. Maybe a few things changed.

Think bigot isolationist voters in the UK would know the difference or care, though?

It's not facts but perceptions that matter in politics.


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 12, 2020)

Adieu said:


> ...ok so I watched some TV show from a few years back. Maybe a few things changed.
> 
> Think bigot isolationist voters in the UK would know the difference or care, though?
> 
> It's not facts but perceptions that matter in politics.


Think like UK versions of Trump voters, all you have to say is immigrants and thats enough reason for some to vote leave.

And there are parties that play heavily on that perception.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

There are also quite a lot of people who have voted to leave the EU for other reasons. For most, nine of these are financial, financially we appear to be torching ourselves. But it would be good to get this back on to a cost of gear thing if possible?


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> There are also quite a lot of people who have voted to leave the EU for other reasons. For most, nine of these are financial, financially we appear to be torching ourselves. But it would be good to get this back on to a cost of gear thing if possible?


I feel like that's already been answered. Things won't suddenly get cheaper, I don't know what you think is going to happen.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Sep 13, 2020)

I don't think this is going to happen fast enough to really make a huge impact. This is going to be a relatively slow burn as finer details of trade are ironed out, and since it's not a bubble, how the world reacts and recovers from covid will have more influence.

Prices on guitars are going up everywhere, I don't see how the situation the UK has gotten itself into will lead to anything different, and will likely be worse if the GBP falls sharply.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

cip 123 said:


> I feel like that's already been answered. Things won't suddenly get cheaper, I don't know what you think is going to happen.



It hasn’t been answered because I want more information about why things may happen and how quickly it will happen. “Things won’t suddenly get cheaper” is so obvious I may as well be speaking with a five year old.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think this is going to happen fast enough to really make a huge impact. This is going to be a relatively slow burn as finer details of trade are ironed out, and since it's not a bubble, how the world reacts and recovers from covid will have more influence.
> 
> Prices on guitars are going up everywhere, I don't see how the situation the UK has gotten itself into will lead to anything different, and will likely be worse if the GBP falls sharply.



Do you think this will be different if we go out on a no deal? Suddenly we’re paying a lot more automatically on all imports to an extreme degree aren’t we? In which case there may be a very rough year and then prices may come back down... but what company deliberately lowers their prices?


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> Do you think this will be different if we go out on a no deal? Suddenly we’re paying a lot more automatically on all imports to an extreme degree aren’t we? In which case there may be a very rough year and then prices may come back down... but what company deliberately lowers their prices?



You paying more on imports is dependant on two things:
-The relative value of the pound to the € and $
-The tariffs your government might want to put on imports.

The tariffs usually are implemented to protect local manufacturing. I could see amplifiers getting heavily taxed to protect Marshall, but the UK doesn't have any large scale domestic guitar company. Chapman sells made in asia guitars and his custom shop is inconsequential.


----------



## Alex79 (Sep 13, 2020)

Adieu said:


> Cheaper Marshalls and Celestions for the rest of us though!!!!
> 
> Go Brexit!!!! Whoohooo!!! That's quite enough of being a first world country for y'all!!!



TBH it's just a matter of time until "traditional British brands" move all their production out of the UK; Brexit is only accelerating that. Marshall and Celestion already produce the majority of their portfolio in Asia.


----------



## Alex79 (Sep 13, 2020)

littlebadboy said:


> I'm in the US while my sister lives in the UK. She said one of the reasons for Brexit is the abuse of the Healthcare system. How true?
> 
> But... what about "brown people"? Kinda offensive.



It is... the way immigrants are depicted by Daily Mail etc is very offensive and borders on racist. In Durham people complain about Chinese grocery stores! Can you believe it?

And the Healthcare system is a whole chapter for itself. In a nut shell: some people inside the Tory party want to sell it off to US Healthcare providers and rake in lots of cash. To prep it up they've developed this false narrative of immigration placing too much strain on the NHS etc. (immigrant tax contributions actually prop up the funding, as immigrants are more likely to be tax payers in the UK). At some point there will more statements saying that the only way to save the NHS is to get specialists taking over parts of it/radically reform it etc. Classic White Knight scenario.


----------



## Edika (Sep 13, 2020)

I think it also depends on where the bulk of the guitars are shipped from, what is the country of origin of the company selling the guitars appears to be, where is the main distributor located etc etc. If Ibanez seems to be a global company with their headquarters located in a tax heaven country it'll depend on what kind of trade deal each country has. Plus I'm not 100% if something is manufactured in China and sent let's say to Japan for distribution of there's an import tax for goods coming from China. Or if those products are sent directly to the distributors on each country if they're taxes and have import duties as goods coming from China. Otherwise if it has to go through two or three countries then what trade deals are there to not have import fees and duties racking up?

Fo most of the companies sent to distributors in the UK directly or is there a central distributor for the EU and then the UK take their great from there? If so price will be affected by £ to whatever currency the product is coming from. Plus whatever important duties and tax is added to the product. I remember that if shops don't have a distribution deal it seems that they're more or less buy products from the companies at face value and not the discounted price, pay VAT and import duties and then have to pay sales tax too along with VAT added to the sale for the consumer, driving the price of some products to really higher prices. I think that's what was happening with Mesa products for most of Europe and why they were that much more expensive than the US prices.


----------



## Edika (Sep 13, 2020)

NHS has been gradually defunded to appear as dysfunctional so they can make the case of selling it off to private hands. Not that inside the NHS there hasn't been a waste of public money especially when constructing new hospitals. I had a friend that works in a company for electrical installations and said they changed their requirements 3 times before completing the work, costing them about 10 million pounds extra of what they would have had to pay if it was someone that knew what the hospital required from the beginning. 

I don't know if there's abuse of the system but unless you go private (and pay a boatload of money) or are dying there's no way you'll see a specialist in a timely manner. So something that could have been easily prevented will most probably end up being a serious ailment by the time you see someone that knows what they're looking for. Even if you want to do routine blood tests every year they'll turn you away because you're not ove 55 or some crap like that.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

Edika said:


> NHS has been gradually defunded to appear as dysfunctional so they can make the case of selling it off to private hands. Not that inside the NHS there hasn't been a waste of public money especially when constructing new hospitals. I had a friend that works in a company for electrical installations and said they changed their requirements 3 times before completing the work, costing them about 10 million pounds extra of what they would have had to pay if it was someone that knew what the hospital required from the beginning.
> 
> I don't know if there's abuse of the system but unless you go private (and pay a boatload of money) or are dying there's no way you'll see a specialist in a timely manner. So something that could have been easily prevented will most probably end up being a serious ailment by the time you see someone that knows what they're looking for. Even if you want to do routine blood tests every year they'll turn you away because you're not ove 55 or some crap like that.



I agree. The NHS isn't perfect in terms of wastage of money but we must fight with everything we have not to move to a system like the one in the US, which is inhumane for a developed country.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 13, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> You paying more on imports is dependant on two things:
> -The relative value of the pound to the € and $
> -The tariffs your government might want to put on imports.
> 
> The tariffs usually are implemented to protect local manufacturing. I could see amplifiers getting heavily taxed to protect Marshall, but the UK doesn't have any large scale domestic guitar company. Chapman sells made in asia guitars and his custom shop is inconsequential.



I am currently doing afair bit of work with companies being impacted with the trade issues being caused due to Brexit and for the record I voted remain. Andromalia has hit the nail squarely on the head.

We'll see effects on the GBP relative to other currencies being a big factor. That will then be skewed by tariffs on different sectors that will be dependent on any deals that the government can negotiate, so different goods and services could be affected differently to each other. They'll also vary depending on where things are going to and coming from.

The next thing is the "distributor" issue. It'll be interesting to see whether the UK sees the range of products imported here shrink altogether. If the UK gets a bad deal (likely...) things physically imported to the EU27 (eg guitars from Asia) then shipped to the UK will be hit with two lots of tax and duties, which means they'll be hit with a massive bump in cost. If the UK's deal with Japan that was signed last week for example meant that guitars are tariff free then I bet there'll be a UK distributor trying to negotiate a deal with Hoshino directly to get Ibanez from Japan instead of getting them via Meinl in Germany.

In the future we'll also see any regulatory divergence affecting the UK as an import destination. It's another hurdle that companies will have to clear to do business with the UK. If the UK has less stringent regulations, then any benefit will be lost if they try to sell overseas.


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> It hasn’t been answered because I want more information about why things may happen and how quickly it will happen. “Things won’t suddenly get cheaper” is so obvious I may as well be speaking with a five year old.


Then no offence why are you asking at all?

If it's obvious, there isn't really a question since your only point of interest seems to be "will my gear be cheaper?". And the answer from most people here is No.

If you want a definitive answer speak to a financial expert, not us.

If you wanna talk trade deals, we could already do them before brexit. If you wanna cut out middle men, we could already do that pre-Brexit, but funnily enough no one was doing that.

To cut a distributor out of your supply line is a massive undertaking, and unless you're supplying direct to customer like Kiesel, there is still a middle man somewhere.

Take your example earlier Mesa. It's gone from Mesa - Distributor(who adds markup) - Andertons (who add markup) - you.

If you only cut out the distributor there's still a middle man adding markup. Yes it's gotten cheaper, but unless that distribution side can be handles between supplier and store like the Mesa example then the price won't fall. Andertons can say "the middle man is cut out" but they're now the middle man, they still have to make money.

If we're lucky and like @_MonSTeR_ says we have a deal with Japan and distribution switches to a UK company, the price will still probably be the same, because if you were paying £600 for an Ibanez that was distributed by Meinl, you're probably still gonna pay £600 for an Ibanez distributed by a UK company, or more considering they now have the whole UK market and want to make money. Capitalism.


----------



## Sumsar (Sep 13, 2020)

Seems you are just looking for someone to say 'Yes gear will be cheaper, and here is why' but the wast majority here is of the opposite impression that gear (and everything else) will become more expensive in the UK. The GBP wil decrease in value, but even if it doesn't, the UK should not be able to negotiate better trade agreements because they are a smaller market. So even if there is a trade agreement I would assume the one EU has to be better, because it is a much bigger market, so the Japanese (or any other market) has a much bigger interest in having access to those markets.That is kinda the point of being a union 

It could be that some wares will become cheaper in the UK, but then it will probably be due to a decrease in quality and safety regulations on products. In the EU for instance there is some fairly high standards on how much pesticedis, various chemicals etc there can be in stuff like food, childrens toys etc and clothes not being made by child labor, even though it probably still is, and human rights in general. Sure if you are willing to compromize on those then you can probably get cheaper products, but do you really want to? And no that does not apply to US made guitars, so they will probably still become more expensive.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 13, 2020)

If the UK is lucky, we’ll see the ‘same’ deal with third countries that the EU has. That wil mainly be if overseas governments can’t be bothered to have to have separate rules for their exports for different parts of Europe. Most already complain about Switzerland having different rules and regulations


----------



## Adieu (Sep 13, 2020)

Edika said:


> NHS has been gradually defunded to appear as dysfunctional so they can make the case of selling it off to private hands. Not that inside the NHS there hasn't been a waste of public money especially when constructing new hospitals. I had a friend that works in a company for electrical installations and said they changed their requirements 3 times before completing the work, costing them about 10 million pounds extra of what they would have had to pay if it was someone that knew what the hospital required from the beginning.
> 
> I don't know if there's abuse of the system but unless you go private (and pay a boatload of money) or are dying there's no way you'll see a specialist in a timely manner. So something that could have been easily prevented will most probably end up being a serious ailment by the time you see someone that knows what they're looking for. Even if you want to do routine blood tests every year they'll turn you away because you're not ove 55 or some crap like that.



Well American healthcare won't help you here.

American GP's are gatekeeper denial-of-services bureaucrats whose sole reason for existing is to collect copays for making access to specialists difficult

Also, for some unfathomable reason, generic made in India antibiotics that cost 50 cents to 5 dollars everywhere else somehow magically cost ~$170 here.

Trust me you'll miss the good ol NHS


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 13, 2020)

I moved to Canada from the US and having free health care is MINDBLOWING. Canada's health service has its problems, but not being bankrupted because you got sick is pretty huge.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 13, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> I moved to Canada from the US and having free health care is MINDBLOWING. Canada's health service has its problems, but not being bankrupted because you got sick is pretty huge.



True

Even crappy free healthcare is nice to have as an option, --- you can always pay if you need something and can afford it, but it's nice when something straightforward like a few stitches, a script for antibiotics, or a certificate of physical wellness for school/work/license stuff is just THERE when you need it.

Looks like I'll be getting a CDL soon because I can't seem to find normal stable work, and somehow the fact that I have to pay some quack $70 for a physical for it here in the US ---- DESPITE being insured ---- pisses me off


----------



## Mathemagician (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> It hasn’t been answered because I want more information about why things may happen and how quickly it will happen. “Things won’t suddenly get cheaper” is so obvious I may as well be speaking with a five year old.



It has been answered. Your country left a trade union where it could negotiate as part of a large block to keep prices down.

In terms of gear any vendor is going to happily maintain price parity with neighboring EU to prevent people from just importing gear cheaper from neighboring countries. And a British retailer/distributors that may replace EU-based distributors have zero incentive to cut the cost. They will likely just enjoy the full markup that user to be split between the distributor and retailer. That’s what an American company would do.

So weird to see “guys tell me my gear will be cheaper and that this is actually great news!” regarding a country now set to negotiate global trade from a much weaker position than when it negotiated entry into the EU.

Unless UK discovers massive oil reserves or becomes the exclusive creator of something like the internet global demand for the pound is likely to drop as companies move their business towards the EU.

Demand for pound drops, value of pound drops, relative price of imports goes up.

However enterprising leave-voters may take advantage of this artificial lack of competition and open up boutique shops to serve the UK market leading to new guitar and amp brands. Who knows.


----------



## Edika (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> I agree. The NHS isn't perfect in terms of wastage of money but we must fight with everything we have not to move to a system like the one in the US, which is inhumane for a developed country.





Adieu said:


> Well American healthcare won't help you here.
> 
> American GP's are gatekeeper denial-of-services bureaucrats whose sole reason for existing is to collect copays for making access to specialists difficult
> 
> ...



I'm not for the NHS to be dismantled. Quite the opposite, I'm for free healthcare for everyone and if possible to revert all the damage the Tory's have done to it so far.


----------



## astrocreep (Sep 13, 2020)

We are doomed.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 13, 2020)

astrocreep said:


> We are doomed.



Well at least Scotland has a _chance_ of independence and a way back to the light. Us here in England on the other hand


----------



## Zhysick (Sep 13, 2020)

This is all I am saying for the Scottish, North Irish and Welsh buddies:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wallace


----------



## Adieu (Sep 13, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Well at least Scotland has a _chance_ of independence and a way back to the light. Us here in England on the other hand



Independence yes, EU membership unlikely

Too many countries have wannabe-separatist provinces. Nobody wants the precedent, it'd get blocked super hard from all around


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

Sumsar said:


> Seems you are just looking for someone to say 'Yes gear will be cheaper, and here is why'.



Nope, wrong. Don’t know what gave you that impression, I’m trying to work out when to make a large guitar purchase and wondering when is best and whether after a while prices will stabilise again. I’m also interested in the fact Mesa Boogie cut out their distributor and was wondering if anyone knew if other companies might do this while everything else was up in the air.


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 13, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> Well at least Scotland has a _chance_ of independence and a way back to the light. Us here in England on the other hand


Uhhh we’re pretty locked in right now.


I’m for Scottish independence but I wouldn’t particularly like to leave and join the EU as a very small country when the EU is already a little unstable with other countries wanting to leave themselves. Our government are a little silly in my opinion, even when we’ve been explicitly told by the EU that leaving grants us Immediate access to the EU they still campaign that it does.


The SNP have done good but on topics of independence they don’t set out many concrete plans on how we support ourselves. I’m all for it but I’m not all for the SNP but then I’m not for any party really.





fps said:


> Nope, wrong. Don’t know what gave you that impression, I’m trying to work out when to make a large guitar purchase and wondering when is best and whether after a while prices will stabilise again. I’m also interested in the fact Mesa Boogie cut out their distributor and was wondering if anyone knew if other companies might do this while everything else was up in the air.


Because when given a list of reasons why our economy won’t be in a good shape you said “let’s get back on topic”
And then said “let’s get back to the topic of gear”

If you’re going to make a large purchase and also know that prices of things will soon be unstable I’d urge you to maybe save.

If you want a cheaper guitar take advantage of the used market, you can pick up a Prestige Ibanez for £450. The UK used Ibanez market is a gold mine imo.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

cip 123 said:


> Uhhh we’re pretty locked in right now.
> 
> 
> I’m for Scottish independence but I wouldn’t particularly like to leave and join the EU as a very small country when the EU is already a little unstable with other countries wanting to leave themselves. Our government are a little silly in my opinion, even when we’ve been explicitly told by the EU that leaving grants us Immediate access to the EU they still campaign that it does.
> ...



No, wrong, that was in response to the posts that were just about Brexit and not about guitars. Why are you talking to me about used Ibanezes? That’s not even close to what I’m looking at, and it’s just bizarre to make a recommendation to someone when you have no idea what they’re after. I’ve had some interesting and useful responses in this thread, this ain’t one of them.


----------



## Edika (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> Nope, wrong. Don’t know what gave you that impression, I’m trying to work out when to make a large guitar purchase and wondering when is best and whether after a while prices will stabilise again. I’m also interested in the fact Mesa Boogie cut out their distributor and was wondering if anyone knew if other companies might do this while everything else was up in the air.



Haven't Andertons cut a distribution deal with Mesa and have reduced the prices of Mesa amps?

Honestly I can't say when it will be a good time to make a large guitar purchase. With the imminent continuous recession that will last several years to come, especially with a no deal Brexit, I'd say unless you have funds in equities that won't be affected on the side and it's a sum you've already put aside for a purchase, you're better off holding on to that money.

Unless you'll be selling and making a profit if prices skyrocket after Brexit, meaning that this will be your investment.


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> No, wrong, that was in response to the posts that were just about Brexit and not about guitars. Why are you talking to me about used Ibanezes? That’s not even close to what I’m looking at, and it’s just bizarre to make a recommendation to someone when you have no idea what they’re after. I’ve had some interesting and useful responses in this thread, this ain’t one of them.


Dude the first response you get is a no to your question about cheaper guitars. Followed by multiple posts about people telling you why the economy will be unstable. You don't really need to get back on topic when the title of the thread is Brexit, and you're given subsequent replies about why the economy, during an ongoing pandemic, won't be in a good state after generational political change.

Why am I talking about Ibanez, because you clearly want your guitars cheaper (or you wouldn't have started this thread) and thats a good market for decent cheaper guitars in the UK. Sorry for the recommendation, not like I'm trying trying to help. How about you tell us what you want? Because correct I have no clue what you want, but it's not a bad start to tell you where to get a good guitar at a cheap price.

If you want an Ernie Ball I'll tell you right now it's gonna be expensive today and it's still gonna be expensive in 10 years. 

If you wanna go buy a guitar go buy a guitar, if you're thinking "Huh if I buy this guitar I could be in a tough spot with money sooner or later" Then maybe it's not the best time for you to buy one. I'd love to buy a new guitar, but I simply can't and I'd like to be able to live comfortably if I run in to a little trouble.



Edika said:


> Haven't Andertons cut a distribution deal with Mesa and have reduced the prices of Mesa amps?
> 
> Honestly I can't say when it will be a good time to make a large guitar purchase. With the imminent continuous recession that will last several years to come, especially with a no deal Brexit, I'd say unless you have funds in equities that won't be affected on the side and it's a sum you've already put aside for a purchase, you're better off holding on to that money.
> 
> Unless you'll be selling and making a profit if prices skyrocket after Brexit, meaning that this will be your investment.


I believe Mesa just cut their distributor. If you look at GuitarGuitar they have pretty much the same prices as Andertons.


----------



## Edika (Sep 13, 2020)

cip 123 said:


> I believe Mesa just cut their distributor. If you look at GuitarGuitar they have pretty much the same prices as Andertons.



I haven't heard something but truth be told I'm not actively looking for news about distributors of brands even though I should I order to get better prices lol!

From what I've seen usually when one shop announces something and reduces prices the rest follow suit after a while to stay competitive. I didn't see any Rectifiers or Mark V's to compare prices (as those are the models I'm interested currently) on guitar guitar but I can check the prices on the Fillmore model they have in stock. Seems comparable with Andertons being £60 on the 50 Watt head.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

Edika said:


> Haven't Andertons cut a distribution deal with Mesa and have reduced the prices of Mesa amps?
> 
> Honestly I can't say when it will be a good time to make a large guitar purchase. With the imminent continuous recession that will last several years to come, especially with a no deal Brexit, I'd say unless you have funds in equities that won't be affected on the side and it's a sum you've already put aside for a purchase, you're better off holding on to that money.
> 
> Unless you'll be selling and making a profit if prices skyrocket after Brexit, meaning that this will be your investment.



Ah that might be it. Clever of them! I think it is Mesa’s end though. Perhaps they’ll do that with some others and this totally unrelated but smart move will offset costs of what’s to come or indeed save some cash through them.


----------



## fps (Sep 13, 2020)

cip 123 said:


> Dude the first response you get is a no to your question about cheaper guitars. Followed by multiple posts about people telling you why the economy will be unstable. You don't really need to get back on topic when the title of the thread is Brexit, and you're given subsequent replies about why the economy, during an ongoing pandemic, won't be in a good state after generational political change.
> 
> Why am I talking about Ibanez, because you clearly want your guitars cheaper (or you wouldn't have started this thread) and thats a good market for decent cheaper guitars in the UK. Sorry for the recommendation, not like I'm trying trying to help. How about you tell us what you want? Because correct I have no clue what you want, but it's not a bad start to tell you where to get a good guitar at a cheap price.
> 
> ...



“You clearly want your guitars cheaper”
“Maybe it’s not the best time for you to buy one”.
Thanks so much for the financial advice, person who knows nothing about me or my finances. Show me someone who buys an expensive guitar and doesn’t want to check what is happening with the values of guitars as we move forward. I’m looking for people who have some insight, if you don’t, or want to keep commenting on things about me you don’t know, jog on.


----------



## Sumsar (Sep 13, 2020)

Dude relax, you asked for our thoughts in your first post, so don't get angry when people give you exactly that.

If all you wanna hear is that you should go buy the guitar you want, then sure, you can have it:
I think you should go buy that guitar you really want, right now, don't wait till tomorrow, order it now and remember to make a NGD thread on here when you get it, and don't skip on the pics


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> “You clearly want your guitars cheaper”
> “Maybe it’s not the best time for you to buy one”.
> Thanks so much for the financial advice, person who knows nothing about me or my finances. Show me someone who buys an expensive guitar and doesn’t want to check what is happening with the values of guitars as we move forward. I’m looking for people who have some insight, if you don’t, or want to keep commenting on things about me you don’t know, jog on.


You're welcome.

Thanks for letting us know what guitar your after!


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> “You clearly want your guitars cheaper”
> “Maybe it’s not the best time for you to buy one”.
> Thanks so much for the financial advice, person who knows nothing about me or my finances. Show me someone who buys an expensive guitar and doesn’t want to check what is happening with the values of guitars as we move forward. I’m looking for people who have some insight, if you don’t, or want to keep commenting on things about me you don’t know, jog on.




Hi. Not poor and British. Understands that guitars are horrible investments.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 13, 2020)

fps said:


> “You clearly want your guitars cheaper”
> “Maybe it’s not the best time for you to buy one”.
> Thanks so much for the financial advice, person who knows nothing about me or my finances. Show me someone who buys an expensive guitar and doesn’t want to check what is happening with the values of guitars as we move forward. I’m looking for people who have some insight, if you don’t, or want to keep commenting on things about me you don’t know, jog on.



I always think to myself, if I have to question whether I can afford a guitar, then the answer is that I can’t. 

Then I think to myself, seeing as I can’t afford this guitar, should I buy it anyway?


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 13, 2020)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I always think to myself, if I have to question whether I can afford a guitar, then the answer is that I can’t.
> 
> Then I think to myself, seeing as I can’t afford this guitar, should I buy it anyway?



yesssss.


----------



## BlueTrident (Sep 15, 2020)

Some brands are already becoming astronomically expensive. ESP (more specifically LTDs) and PRS have shot up in price over the past 5 years in the UK.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 15, 2020)

BlueTrident said:


> Some brands are already becoming astronomically expensive. ESP (more specifically LTDs) and PRS have shot up in price over the past 5 years in the UK.



They haven't.

It's just that THIS happened.


----------



## sleewell (Sep 15, 2020)

just seems like the whole idea was really poorly planned unless that was the plan from the start. even if things are bad they can always get worse. makes no sense for the EU to give them a better deal by leaving. from the start you are putting yourself in a weaker negotiation position and the only leverage you have is to kick yourself in the dick again, even harder, with a no deal crash out. have fun with that.

it looks the bike meme where the rider puts a stick in the wheel and causes their own crash and then blames it on brown people.


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 15, 2020)

sleewell said:


> just seems like the whole idea was really poorly planned unless that was the plan from the start. even if things are bad they can always get worse. makes no sense for the EU to give them a better deal by leaving. from the start you are putting yourself in a weaker negotiation position and the only leverage you have is to kick yourself in the dick again, even harder, with a no deal crash out. have fun with that.
> 
> it looks the bike meme where the rider puts a stick in the wheel and causes their own crash and then blames it on brown people.


The EU does have it's problems, like all large political powers. There are a number of countries also interested in leaving, it's one of those "Well let's see what happens here" situations. But no it wasn't particularly well planned at all.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 15, 2020)

And, anyway, you're supposed to seek concessions for NOT leaving, not incentives to GTFO after announcing that you've pretty much already left

Have you people learned nothing from daytime television soap opera breakups?


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Sep 15, 2020)

Adieu said:


> They haven't.
> 
> It's just that THIS happened.



I remember spending a lot of time in Japan on business in 2007 and the 230 Yen to the Pound made for good times. We're almost literally half that these days


----------



## Lozek (Sep 16, 2020)

sleewell said:


> just seems like the whole idea was really poorly planned unless that was the plan from the start. even if things are bad they can always get worse. makes no sense for the EU to give them a better deal by leaving. from the start you are putting yourself in a weaker negotiation position and the only leverage you have is to kick yourself in the dick again, even harder, with a no deal crash out. have fun with that.
> 
> it looks the bike meme where the rider puts a stick in the wheel and causes their own crash and then blames it on brown people.



It all started as a Conservative party gamble to bring their Euro-sceptic members in line, they believed it would give them a mandate to say 'shut up, the country wants this'. What they hadn't factored in was just how successfully the UK Press had been selling the 'foreigners are to blame for the countries ills' message for many years, coupled with how much will there was to 'show the government that we're sick of being ruled from a distance', both within the union and within Europe.

Another thing worth noting is that if you are resident in the UK but the majority of your money exists outside of the pound, then devaluation of the currency potentially increases your net worth substantially. This is likely the reason behind the headlong rush into the abyss at all costs, because politicians with offshore cash and all of their extremely rich friends will gain substantially from it.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Sep 16, 2020)

Lozek said:


> Another thing worth noting is that if you are resident in the UK but the majority of your money exists outside of the pound, then devaluation of the currency potentially increases your net worth substantially. This is likely the reason behind the headlong rush into the abyss at all costs, because politicians with offshore cash and all of their extremely rich friends will gain substantially from it.



This is an older article from 2019 but sums up the amount of money involved in both the original Brexit Referendum backing leave and how much was made when the pound plumetted after the result came in and how much is poss being speculated off the back of a poss No Deal Brexit on 31st Dec this year.... Been pretty clear in the non right wing press for some time that a very small number of already incredibily wealthy people are going to become even more so at the expense of the vast majority of UK population who are already crippled by years of austerity, lack of regional investment and now Covid-19 (Most of who will have been blinded in to voting Leave by years of right wing press & tory eurosceptic MP's especially on their anti EU/immigrants/UK BAME population/all the other reasons previously mentioned above excuses to explain why their lives are so terrible - every populist goverment must have someone to lay the blame on, a THEM who are against US)

https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/...al-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/


----------



## Adieu (Sep 16, 2020)

Louis Cypher said:


> This is an older article from 2019 but sums up the amount of money involved in both the original Brexit Referendum backing leave and how much was made when the pound plumetted after the result came in and how much is poss being speculated off the back of a poss No Deal Brexit on 31st Dec this year.... Been pretty clear in the non right wing press for some time that a very small number of already incredibily wealthy people are going to become even more so at the expense of the vast majority of UK population who are already crippled by years of austerity, lack of regional investment and now Covid-19 (Most of who will have been blinded in to voting Leave by years of right wing press & tory eurosceptic MP's especially on their anti EU/immigrants/UK BAME population/all the other reasons previously mentioned above excuses to explain why their lives are so terrible - every populist goverment must have someone to lay the blame on, a THEM who are against US)
> 
> https://bylinetimes.com/2019/09/11/...al-crash-out-by-boris-johnsons-leave-backers/



It's probably just Russian oligarchs stirring this shit to get a cheaper bolthole and be shielded from possible future EU sanctions


----------



## Louis Cypher (Sep 16, 2020)

Adieu said:


> It's probably just Russian oligarchs stirring this shit to get a cheaper bolthole and be shielded from possible future EU sanctions



Funnily enough there was a recent Guardian article about how the UK in particular London, is one of the most corrupt places in the world for the laundering of money easily and without question.


----------



## Supernaut (Sep 16, 2020)

Not sure this has anything to do with guitars, but anyway, the conservative party is a terrorist organisation.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Sep 16, 2020)

On point, I have no idea how it will affect the new guitar market but a no deal brexit at a basic level on the 2nd hand market (reverb or ebay) will mean any purchases from an EU member state will be subject to full UK VAT and Import duty charges on top of the purchase and shipping (23.5% extra on guitars) same as buying from the USA. Currently as part of the transition period the UK is still in till 31st Dec, there is no VAT or Import duty and so no customs checks or charges on 2nd hand guitars from EU.

That will obviously apply in reverse too, UK seller, EU buyer will be subject to their local duty charges.

Found this, its a 2018 article but probably still valid
https://www.doublereed.co.uk/news/impact-assessment-brexit-and-the-musical-instrument-market/


----------



## Lozek (Sep 16, 2020)

Louis Cypher said:


> Funnily enough there was a recent Guardian article about how the UK in particular London, is one of the most corrupt places in the world for the laundering of money easily and without question.



It's a double edged sword, the City of London Corporation is the Crown Jewels of the country's economy, we would fail without it, and it couldn't be successful without those practices. The general feeling is that it doesn't have to play by 'the rules' because it invented it's own. Again, you can see why a break from increasing European legislation would be 'preferrable'

No-one is clear when the 'The City' came into existence as a trading entity seperate from a location, but it is acknowledged in documents as far back as 1067. You'll also notice it's a Corporation, which very much limits liability of legal recourse to it's employees. 

Interesting also to note that the City of London Police is effectively private and paid for by the Corporation.


----------



## mbardu (Sep 16, 2020)

Lozek said:


> It's a double edged sword, the City of London Corporation is the Crown Jewels of the country's economy, we would fail without it, and it couldn't be successful without those practices. The general feeling is that it doesn't have to play by 'the rules' because it invented it's own. Again, you can see why a break from increasing European legislation would be 'preferrable'
> 
> No-one is clear when the 'The City' came into existence as a trading entity seperate from a location, but it is acknowledged in documents as far back as 1067. You'll also notice it's a Corporation, which very much limits liability of legal recourse to it's employees.
> 
> Interesting also to note that the City of London Police is effectively private and paid for by the Corporation.



lmao, it's not a "double edged sword", it's just tolerating or even encouraging unethical and illegal activity for the profit of a select few. Or are we also believing in "trickle down" economics in the UK now?


----------



## Lozek (Sep 16, 2020)

mbardu said:


> lmao, it's not a "double edged sword", it's just tolerating or even encouraging unethical and illegal activity for the profit of a select few. Or are we also believing in "trickle down" economics in the UK now?



That's my point, it's not the few. Pragmatically, I live in a nation that moved away from the manufacturing sector decades ago in favour of financial products/services and if the city were to fail then it would be the people who bore the brunt of economic collapse. So I don't want it to fail, the most I can hope for is reform without too much damage to productivity.


----------



## mbardu (Sep 16, 2020)

Lozek said:


> That's my point, it's not the few. Pragmatically, I live in a nation that moved away from the manufacturing sector decades ago in favour of financial products/services and if the city were to fail then it would be the people who bore the brunt of economic collapse. So I don't want it to fail, the most I can hope for is reform without too much damage to productivity.



This is if we _truly believe _that there is no alternative and that the unethical stuff is necessary to avoid a collapse that would impact mostly regular people. Those many people, not few, who indeed have decent quality of life today. And maybe that's the case.
But the other point of view is that there _are _alternatives under which the system would be more ethical, and yet still _more _beneficial to the many regular folks. And maybe it's just that the ones benefiting tremendously from the system as it is today are also the the ones with the power to push that notion that regular folks would have a terrible price to pay for a just and ethical system...

Anyway, it goes a bit beyond that notion, I'm just concerned with the direction the UK is taking in general (the above, plus the NHS trend, fear for consumer protection standards etc)- but even that is only second hand information on my part through family living in London so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


----------



## Flappydoodle (Sep 16, 2020)

jephjacques said:


> The UK is well on its way to being a Russia-style kleptocracy, and the US isn't far behind. The only people who benefit from this stuff are the mega-rich.



Well this is simply nonsense

Trump is most likely going to be voted out in a couple months. And he hasn’t tried to poison Biden yet. 

And the UK had an election recently where Boris won by miles. He’s still popular and the UK will have another free and fair election when it is due in 2024. He might win again or he might lose. There’s absolutely nothing remotely ‘Russian-style’ about it.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Sep 16, 2020)

Adieu said:


> ????
> 
> I was under the impression that it was the UK that was far browner than the mainland though.... hell, the UK has a surprising number of prominent and successful politicians of Indian/Pakistani descent
> 
> Or are such minor details irrelevant in the age of post-truth politics???



I think lumping people under ‘brown’ as a strawman attack based on a stereotype of Brexit supporters is a mistake. 

UK has lots of Indians, and most people don’t have a problem with them. Even the stereotypically xenophobic grandparents don’t mind Indians. They are well integrated and are at almost every level of society - from cleaners to doctors and leading politicians. Marriage between Indian and white British people isn’t uncommon. They go to footballs matches and pubs and get drunk - what’s not to love!

Pakistanis are seen as more problematic, mostly because they are Muslim and therefore are less interested in integrating. They eat Halal food and they don’t drink alcohol, which makes it more difficult to be part of a group. They don’t do sex before marriage, and they almost always marry within their own circle. So that makes integration with the wider public more difficult. But even then, Pakistanis are generally seen as accepted in the UK, again occupying all levels of society. Though the xenophobic grandparents will mutter, they’re still accepted. 

What really tipped it for Brexit was the refugee crisis with millions of mostly impoverished and mostly uneducated people flooding into Europe. There were Syrians but also a whole bunch of Africans, Iraqis, Afghanis and all sorts mixed in there. In the UK it was seen as insane that some countries in the EU were welcoming them with open arms, and others were not. Greece and Italy had literally boatloads of people washing up on the beach next to sunbathers. Meanwhile, Germany was telling them to come. This was a major dysfunction of the EU. 

To make it worse, due to EU rules, once they were settled in the EU they would have freedom of movement to go to any other country. The fear was that Germany may be welcoming them, but eventually they were going to make their way to the UK - due to more generous welfare, NHS, English-speaking etc. The whole thing was handled terribly, with terrorists potentially mixed in with genuine refugees, very poor attempts at identifying people, unclear rules about who would be accepted or why. There were huge camps along borders, riots at detention/processing facilities etc. That was all happening in early 2016 and it was a big reason for Brexit. 

Lastly, immigration has been an issue in the UK for years leading up to this. In 1997, Tony Blair talked about immigration from Europe in the 10,000’s range. But it ended up being more than 10x that amount in a single year. At that people, people WERE xenophobic against Polish people (Who are white, mostly Christian and love drinking even more than we do!) Even subsequent Conservative governments had totally failed to reduce immigration numbers. So there is a historic distrust of the UK government when it comes to immigration. Leaving the EU was sold as a way to finally take back control. 

Anyway, the whole thing is much more nuanced than simply hating brown people in general.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Sep 16, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> And "they took our jobs" is bullshit. Western Europeans are lazy, we want 9 to 5 jobs with minimum effort and a big paycheck or we sit at home waiting for a good job offer. This leads to a shortage of workers in multiple areas. Construction workers, agricultural workers, nurses and truck drivers are highly sought after because of above mentioned reasons.



Well, that depends. I agree on the surface that generally we are less willing to work like crazy. But if you think about it - what’s wrong with expecting a decent salary and not working yourself silly? I would actually say it’s unfair to force people to compete with immigrants from 3rd world countries. If the immigrants are willing to share a house with 6 other guys, sleep on the floor, work 16 hour days, sending all their money home - how is a person grounded with a mortgage, children, expenses etc supposed to compete? No wonder there’s resentment. 

You could actually blame the politicians and business leaders for many things which allowed this to happen:

1. Too generous welfare state that makes benefits more enticing than work. It should almost never be the case that you are better off not working. As you said, if there are infilled vacancies and people are choosing not to take them - that’s a broken system. 

2. Allowing too much freedom of movement. Companies can import cheap labour, keeping their profits higher That’s good for them, but terrible for their domestic employees. Seems ridiculous to me to import lots of foreigners to pick fruit when there are plenty of chavs sitting around bus stops. Government has allowed this to happen. 

3. Not encouraging people to become nurses etc. Nurse salaries and conditions should be better. Their student loan conditions should be better. Domestic students should be encouraged and prioritised. None of that is impossible.

4. Prioritising company profits over the well-being of British people. Not legislating companies to take working conditions, salaries etc seriously. If your employees are sleeping on the floor etc, that shouldn’t be acceptable. 

This is why you’re seeing right wing people talking about ending globalism, ‘America first’ etc. And the left wing blame the evil corporations. They both have fair points, but of course, it’s likely that their party has also done absolutely nothing to seriously address the problems.


----------



## Merrekof (Sep 17, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Well, that depends. I agree on the surface that generally we are less willing to work like crazy. But if you think about it - what’s wrong with expecting a decent salary and not working yourself silly? I would actually say it’s unfair to force people to compete with immigrants from 3rd world countries. If the immigrants are willing to share a house with 6 other guys, sleep on the floor, work 16 hour days, sending all their money home - how is a person grounded with a mortgage, children, expenses etc supposed to compete? No wonder there’s resentment.
> 
> You could actually blame the politicians and business leaders for many things which allowed this to happen:
> 
> ...


There is nothing wrong with wanting a good paying, easy job but be realistic and don't be a bitch when you miss out on a rare job oppertunity like that. There's a 100 people in line waiting for that easy job while many sectors are struggling to find people.
A friend of mine works with a road building company. He complained the other day that they have a truck to spare because they are heavily understaffed. Ads in local newspapers got them literally 0 replies. Not even one phone call.

1. There are people here in Belgium who are better off staying at home than go to work. 
My mother-in-law came from Lebanon, fled the civil war there with her family and came to Europe for a better life. Even she is complaining that refugees here are getting too much. A free appartement, 500€ cash to spend, free docters, free lawyers, free daycare for young children,... this only helps right wing parties getting more votes.

2. In theory, this is great. When labour abroad is so cheap that you get your dirty chures done for a little bit of money. In real life, not everybody here has a good paying job.

3. Yes, those professions should get more temporary advantages. Luckily, we don't really have student loans here. Generally speaking, getting a higher degree is affortable for every parent to give their children. Not saying it is easy for everyone to afford but it's nowhere near as bad as the good ol' US of A!

4. Isn't that in every capitalist nation?


----------



## cip 123 (Sep 17, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Well this is simply nonsense
> 
> Trump is most likely going to be voted out in a couple months. And he hasn’t tried to poison Biden yet.
> 
> And the UK had an election recently where Boris won by miles. He’s still popular and the UK will have another free and fair election when it is due in 2024. He might win again or he might lose. There’s absolutely nothing remotely ‘Russian-style’ about it.


I think the main point is that the government are in it for themselves.


Which is true of every major political power in the world, they want money and power. 


Russia are just a bit more brazen about it than most countries. But the definition of kleptocracy can certainly be applied to most governments. Heck even my local council was caught using tax funds for personal purchases.


----------



## Merrekof (Sep 17, 2020)

Flappydoodle said:


> Trump is most likely going to be voted out in a couple months.


Who knows. Honestly, I was downright shocked and surprised that he actually got elected as president in the first place. Common sense tells me he'll lose the election. But four years ago, common sense also told me that he didn't stand a chance and look what happened


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 17, 2020)

Trump is going to be voted out and declare the election invalid and then who KNOWS what's going to happen. The US is a shitshow. And if you can't see how the ultra-wealthy have utterly undermined democracy to further enrich themselves, I don't know what to tell you other than get your eyes checked.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Sep 17, 2020)

I think he's going to win.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Sep 17, 2020)

If Trump does win but its anything other than a landslide for him he will still claim it was only close due to Democrate voter fraud. He and the Republicans/Fox News have spent most of this year laying that ground work over Postal voting inparticular being fraudulent. I also read he told a rally recently he was gonna try and change the law so he could run for a 3rd term.....

www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/09/13/trump-says-he-will-negotiate-third-term-because-hes-entitled-to-it/amp/


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Sep 17, 2020)

Brexit? Covid-19 says....hold my beer! ;-)


----------



## Masoo2 (Sep 17, 2020)

Louis Cypher said:


> If Trump does win but its anything other than a landslide for him he will still claim it was only close due to Democrate voter fraud. He and the Republicans/Fox News have spent most of this year laying that ground work over Postal voting inparticular being fraudulent. I also read he told a rally recently he was gonna try and change the law so he could run for a 3rd term.....
> 
> www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2020/09/13/trump-says-he-will-negotiate-third-term-because-hes-entitled-to-it/amp/


This is what pisses me off so much and has me genuinely wanting to leave the country when the opportunity arises. You have such a large portion of the population who has been brainwashed by right wing corporate interests into believing that it's okay if not _good_ for the President to continuously discredit and delegitimize the institutions which the country and basic life operates on. He'll claim the postal service is bad (while not mentioning that his postermaster general has millions invested in competing private package delivery companies) and his supporters will say "yeah, they were a day late that one time or had my package go missing for a week that other time years ago, f*ck them!" The same is then applied to stuff like Medicare and Social Security which he has been planning to cut through a reduction in payroll taxes, to which his (able bodied, non-retired) supports will say "why should I be paying for this when it doesn't benefit me? f*ck them!" without realizing that their parents rely on social security to get food and their friend with a notable disability relies on Medicare to help cover needed medicine and treatment. I've noticed many of the same attitudes being applied to broader institutions like NATO and the United Nations, many of which our country pioneered the development of in the postwar era. But no, those globalist powers are evil and trying to destroy America, but make sure to not show no concern for Russian interference which is totally not real even though the Senate Intelligence Committee released a 1000 page document detailing it but that won't be believed either because the right wing has fostered a distrust in politicians. How they convinced rural working class people to believe that a corporate Democrat draft dodger with countless lawsuits and sexual assault claims against his name is the "President for the people" because of his track record of _not_ being in politics is beyond me.

That's the danger here. Slowly but surely every single service that in any way actually _helps_ the majority of people (working class, non-wealthy, generally no higher education) will be eroded and privatized, allowing a new generation of oligarchical billionaires to take foot similar to the rise of Bezoses of the 00s and 10s.

And don't get me even started on the whole third term thing.

Fox News, Breitbart, Epoch Times, PragerU, Turning Point USA, The Blaze, One American News Network, and other propaganda outlets will be the downfall of the lower and middle class in this country through building off of the foundations left by adminstrations of yesteryear like Reagan and his famous "Reaganomics" which never delivered on it's promises of trickling down wealth. They radicalize these people who feel left behind socioeconomically into believing that corporate oligarchs will be their saviors who will someone "bring back rural America" to it's "glory" of the post-war era. Yet that's not feasible and has been shown time and time again with false promises of bringing back mining and factory jobs to regions which they once thrived. You cannot force the creation of jobs in a region that has no value to be extracted. If anything, there needs to be social programs enacted to get these people _out_ of Appalachia, the rust belt, etc and into job training and educational programs in more developed areas. As a response, these media organizations teach their viewers that it's _not_ the ones in power and control of the money who have ruined their lives, but rather their neighbors down the street who have a different skin color or those "libruhlz" (the Republican Party is a liberal party but they can't understand that) in coastal cities or "antifa" who is "burning down cities across the country." They've mastered the art of diversion as a means of developing xenophobia and instill a false sense of fear into what might as well be called white rural/suburban America.


----------



## jephjacques (Sep 17, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> I think he's going to win.



nothing would surprise me at this point


----------



## Flappydoodle (Sep 17, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> There is nothing wrong with wanting a good paying, easy job but be realistic and don't be a bitch when you miss out on a rare job oppertunity like that. There's a 100 people in line waiting for that easy job while many sectors are struggling to find people.
> A friend of mine works with a road building company. He complained the other day that they have a truck to spare because they are heavily understaffed. Ads in local newspapers got them literally 0 replies. Not even one phone call.
> 
> 1. There are people here in Belgium who are better off staying at home than go to work.
> ...



Agree with you. It's ridiculous that a company can not find people to work (assuming they are offering a liveable salary etc)

As for 4 - kinda, but it's still the least murderous and evil of the government ideologies we have tried, haha


----------



## Flappydoodle (Sep 17, 2020)

Masoo2 said:


> This is what pisses me off so much and has me genuinely wanting to leave the country when the opportunity arises. You have such a large portion of the population who has been brainwashed by right wing corporate interests into believing that it's okay if not _good_ for the President to continuously discredit and delegitimize the institutions which the country and basic life operates on. He'll claim the postal service is bad (while not mentioning that his postermaster general has millions invested in competing private package delivery companies) and his supporters will say "yeah, they were a day late that one time or had my package go missing for a week that other time years ago, f*ck them!" The same is then applied to stuff like Medicare and Social Security which he has been planning to cut through a reduction in payroll taxes, to which his (able bodied, non-retired) supports will say "why should I be paying for this when it doesn't benefit me? f*ck them!" without realizing that their parents rely on social security to get food and their friend with a notable disability relies on Medicare to help cover needed medicine and treatment. I've noticed many of the same attitudes being applied to broader institutions like NATO and the United Nations, many of which our country pioneered the development of in the postwar era. But no, those globalist powers are evil and trying to destroy America, but make sure to not show no concern for Russian interference which is totally not real even though the Senate Intelligence Committee released a 1000 page document detailing it but that won't be believed either because the right wing has fostered a distrust in politicians.



Hmm, I think you're being VERY generous to the intelligence communities and institutions here

The FBI, CIA, NSA, State Department etc have extremely dodgy track records. Everything from spying on your emails, to fostering coups, to human experimentation on your own citizens. To unequivocally say that they are helping normal people is a falsehood. Same goes for MI5/MI6 if you're in the UK.

And many of the criticisms levelled against international institutions are fair too. NATO has generally worked in America's favour in the past, especially as a counter-balance to Russia. But European "allies" have definitely been skimping on their side of the deal in more recent years. Only 3 of 27 countries spend the recommended amount. Instead, they are opting to spend on social programs and things to benefit their citizens more directly. That's their decision to make, but at the same time they still expect the US to protect them, and complain when the US asks them to spend more or asks them to make sacrifices. For the American taxpayer, it means their money is used to defend Germany, so Germany can spend money on healthcare and pensions. That definitely doesn't seem fair. You can argue that the US benefits by still having global reach/influence etc, but I also think it's fair that massive European economies and wealthy countries should contribute more.

Same goes for the UN. Many aspects of it really are a joke. As a forum for democratic debate between nations, it served the purpose. But now the organisation has become explicitly political, has expanded to interfere in domestic affairs, is getting into social justice etc. Personally, I think a lot of that is overreach.


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 18, 2020)

Lozek said:


> That's my point, it's not the few. Pragmatically, I live in a nation that moved away from the manufacturing sector decades ago in favour of financial products/services and if the city were to fail then it would be the people who bore the brunt of economic collapse. So I don't want it to fail, the most I can hope for is reform without too much damage to productivity.


Uh, the economic collapse already happened, it's called Thatcherism. The City is all that's left in a field of ruins, not the proud speahead of an economy.
Besides, at the rate we're going, the city will very soon be very busy trading with itself because the access to EU markets will be closed.

The one thing a lot of people fail to understand is that on the continent, there was an old exasperation with Britain, always a brake to progress, and we couldn't kick them out. When the UK fucked up and kicked itself out, a good chunk of peopl ewere very happy about it, me included.
I'll reiterate that I have nothing against UK nationals, really, but they have a tendency to elect [REDACTED]s that got annoying over time. There is, for exemple, a consensus that were the UK still a member, the agreement on the stimulus package for COVID would never have been reached.



> The FBI, CIA, NSA, State Department etc have extremely dodgy track records


They do. But up to some point, they had the good grace to be decently good at their job and out of the public view. With the Age of Information, they can't hide their activities as well as they could before. With the tech we have, even I would be more efficient and useful than a professional intelligence agent 40 years ago. Just think about a simple YT video for propaganda, and what it required to reach that many people decades ago.


----------



## Merrekof (Sep 18, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> They do. But up to some point, they had the good grace to be decently good at their job and out of the public view. With the Age of Information, they can't hide their activities as well as they could before. With the tech we have, even I would be more efficient and useful than a professional intelligence agent 40 years ago. Just think about a simple YT video for propaganda, and what it required to reach that many people decades ago.


Don't forget about the Stasi back in the day. (East-German intelligence agency)
They had an enormous amount of spies tapping phones, hiding mics in houses and shadowing people to know where they have been and with whom they've been talking.
These days people do the spying themselves by buying smartphones! The Stasi would be living a dream with all this tech.


----------



## Lozek (Sep 20, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> The one thing a lot of people fail to understand is that on the continent, there was an old exasperation with Britain, always a brake to progress, and we couldn't kick them out. When the UK fucked up and kicked itself out, a good chunk of peopl ewere very happy about it, me included.
> I'll reiterate that I have nothing against UK nationals, really, but they have a tendency to elect [REDACTED]s that got annoying over time. There is, for exemple, a consensus that were the UK still a member, the agreement on the stimulus package for COVID would never have been reached.



Absolutely, I'm aware of that. Much like I was saying about the City, because we were a founding member of the EU we used our position to do what was good for us, much to the annoyance of everyone else.


----------



## Andromalia (Sep 20, 2020)

Er, no, the UK isn't a founding member of the EU lol.
Besides, I'm pretty sure the end result isn't "good for you" with a reunited Ireland and independent Scotland incoming. 
And I just realised this actually wasn't the Brexit topic so I'll stop there. Feel free to raise the subject on the appropriate one.


----------



## StevenC (Sep 20, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Er, no, the UK isn't a founding member of the EU lol.
> Besides, I'm pretty sure the end result isn't "good for you" with a reunited Ireland and independent Scotland incoming.
> And I just realised this actually wasn't the Brexit topic so I'll stop there. Feel free to raise the subject on the appropriate one.


Eh, united Ireland is a really good thing for the UK because we're such an economic negative and all they get out of it is claim to a couple of good golf tracks.


----------



## Zhysick (Sep 20, 2020)

Lozek said:


> Absolutely, I'm aware of that. Much like I was saying about the City, because we were a founding member of the EU we used our position to do what was good for us, much to the annoyance of everyone else.



Yep, EU was founded during the 50s and UK got into in the 73. But you are right about the other, but that has been done more or less by any country in the EU...


----------



## Adieu (Sep 20, 2020)

Zhysick said:


> Yep, EU was founded during the 50s and UK got into in the 73. But you are right about the other, but that has been done more or less by any country in the EU...



I thought Caesar created it, Napoleon tried to revitalize it, and then Hitler tried again?


And each time....the Brits done fucked up the dream at the last moment


----------



## Merrekof (Sep 20, 2020)

Adieu said:


> I thought Caesar created it, Napoleon tried to revitalize it, and then Hitler tried again?
> 
> 
> And each time....the Brits done fucked up the dream at the last moment


Nah, the Russians fucked up the dream and the Brits yelled they did after they were cornered and deflecting punches.


----------



## Adieu (Sep 20, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> Nah, the Russians fucked up the dream and the Brits yelled they did after they were cornered and deflecting punches.



True

Brexit was probably a Russian false flag too


----------



## Christopher Williams (Nov 27, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> 3. Yes, those professions should get more temporary advantages. Luckily, we don't really have student loans here. Generally speaking, getting a higher degree is affortable for every parent to give their children. Not saying it is easy for everyone to afford but it's nowhere near as bad as the good ol' US of A!
> 
> 4. Isn't that in every capitalist nation?


College has become ridiculously expensive in the US because it’s been flooded with free cash in the form of lavish government sponsored student loans over the last 2 decades. 

Combine that with massive influxes of bureaucrats whose job has nothing to do with education, and everything to do with advancing politics, and it should be no surprise that college costs have exploded.


----------



## possumkiller (Nov 28, 2020)

Shouldn't britons be able to get domestic stuff cheaper after brexit? Seems like a great time to order a daemoness.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Nov 28, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Shouldn't britons be able to get domestic stuff cheaper after brexit? Seems like a great time to order a daemoness.



Britain will be back in the eu by the time your daemoness is done.


----------



## Merrekof (Nov 28, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Shouldn't britons be able to get domestic stuff cheaper after brexit? Seems like a great time to order a daemoness.


Probably not. The raw materials are imported, I think. Those will be more expensive because of the bad position britons are in when it comes to trade negotiations.



diagrammatiks said:


> Britain will be back in the eu by the time your daemoness is done.


----------



## Omzig (Nov 28, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> Probably not. The raw materials are imported, I think. Those will be more expensive because of the bad position britons are in when it comes to trade negotiations.



Come again? have you really looked at the trade deficit figures between the UK - eu & the rest of the world? (here's just one for you "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£79 billion with the EU in 2019") you (and the rest of the world) sell us a fuck ton more stuff than you buy from us...last time i checked that means if you want our money (and fish) you better start offering us a better deal and prices or we can now just go and shop else where....


----------



## Andromalia (Nov 28, 2020)

Please do. I'm sure the USA will looooooooooooooove to sell you the proverbial chlorinated chicken and to enforce their food standards on your population.

In case you didn't notice, the EU doesn't need your money.


----------



## Merrekof (Nov 28, 2020)

Omzig said:


> Come again? have you really looked at the trade deficit figures between the UK - eu & the rest of the world? (here's just one for you "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£79 billion with the EU in 2019") you (and the rest of the world) sell us a fuck ton more stuff than you buy from us...last time i checked that means if you want our money (and fish) you better start offering us a better deal and prices or we can now just go and shop else where....


Honestly, I haven't. I do know that the Brexit affects Belgium since we import and export lots of stuff to Britian so we'll definetely gonna be nagatively affected by that. 

I meant more along the lines of trade agreements outside of Europe. The EU as a whole has a better negotiation position than Britian alone.


----------



## StevenC (Nov 28, 2020)

Omzig said:


> Come again? have you really looked at the trade deficit figures between the UK - eu & the rest of the world? (here's just one for you "The UK had an overall trade deficit of -£79 billion with the EU in 2019") you (and the rest of the world) sell us a fuck ton more stuff than you buy from us...last time i checked that means if you want our money (and fish) you better start offering us a better deal and prices or we can now just go and shop else where....


If we're in such a strong position why haven't we got a "good" deal after 4 and a half years?


----------



## Omzig (Nov 28, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Please do. I'm sure the USA will looooooooooooooove to sell you the proverbial chlorinated chicken and to enforce their food standards on your population.
> 
> In case you didn't notice, the EU doesn't need your money.



Im sure i'll enjoy the Choice of having either, also ive visited the USA a number of time and eaten chicken there as well as other meat/dairy/veg and never been sick or ill once (i can not say the same about my visits to Italy or spain though) but as i have for the last 10 years or so i will more likely just contiune to buy british breed/slaughted chicken and are you really sure you wont miss the UK's money in the pot? after all we are/were the 3rd highest contrubutor to the EU's buget & im not sure if you know this but from 2000 to 2017 the UK’s net contribution exceeded the net contributions of 26 other EU countries combined with only germany paying in more during this time...simple math says you will miss the contrubtion, but hey "The Project" comes first right 



StevenC said:


> If we're in such a strong position why haven't we got a "good" deal after 4 and a half years?



Well id say it's due to weak Prime Minister's, Cowardly Cameron and Treasonous May + Remainer MP's and lords in control for most of that time (most of them on the take from the EU) they let the EU put the UK in a positon where we still gave them all money but had no say in anything...ideal for the EU,whats not to like for them about that....keep the money but silence a troublesome voice, also the EU will never ever give the UK a good deal because it would only make other members refect on there memberships, and they do seem to get off on punishment (but only for those that rock the boat) just look at the current Hungry/Poland issue over the CV-19 bailout...do what we say or no money for you.....



Merrekof said:


> Honestly, I haven't. I do know that the Brexit affects Belgium since we import and export lots of stuff to Britian so we'll definetely gonna be nagatively affected by that.
> 
> I meant more along the lines of trade agreements outside of Europe. The EU as a whole has a better negotiation position than Britian alone.



Well a lot of countries wont do deals with the EU due to the crazy amount of red tape/BS and laws the EU seems to like to draw up, i think there are something like 62,000 international standards laws atm (inc one that limits vacuum cleaners to just 900 watts...why???) 
once the UK starts to Cut away at that red tape i think more and more doors will open tade wise, people in the UK spend a lot of money around the world and if you think that no one will still want a slice of that pie just because we are outside the EU...well we shall see


----------



## StevenC (Nov 28, 2020)

Omzig said:


> Well id say it's due to weak Prime Minister's, Cowardly Cameron and Treasonous May + Remainer MP's and lords in control for most of that time (most of them on the take from the EU) they let the EU put the UK in a positon where we still gave them all money but had no say in anything...ideal for the EU,whats not to like for them about that....keep the money but silence a troublesome voice, also the EU will never ever give the UK a good deal because it would only make other members refect on there memberships, and they do seem to get off on punishment (but only for those that rock the boat) just look at the current Hungry/Poland issue over the CV-19 bailout...do what we say or no money for you.....


So what about BoJo? Why should remain MPs roll over to agreements they disagree with when elected under the pretence of that disagreement? Should Lords really be condoning breaking international laws?

Yes, that's what happens when you agree to pay a bunch of money then decide to leave the table.

So they will give us a deal or won't? And it's the fault of May's (and somehow Cameron's) negotiating or it's not?


----------



## StevenC (Nov 28, 2020)

Omzig said:


> Well a lot of countries wont do deals with the EU due to the crazy amount of red tape/BS and laws the EU seems to like to draw up, i think there are something like 62,000 international standards laws atm (inc one that limits vacuum cleaners to just 900 watts...why???)
> once the UK starts to Cut away at that red tape i think more and more doors will open tade wise, people in the UK spend a lot of money around the world and if you think that no one will still want a slice of that pie just because we are outside the EU...well we shall see


I'm sorry for the double post, but anytime someone uses the phrase "once we start cutting red tape the economy will improve" I die a little inside knowing how many people are allowed to talk about things they don't even slightly comprehend.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Nov 28, 2020)

Omzig said:


> Im sure i'll enjoy the Choice of having either, also ive visited the USA a number of time and eaten chicken there as well as other meat/dairy/veg and never been sick or ill once (i can not say the same about my visits to Italy or spain though) but as i have for the last 10 years or so i will more likely just contiune to buy british breed/slaughted chicken and are you really sure you wont miss the UK's money in the pot? after all we are/were the 3rd highest contrubutor to the EU's buget & im not sure if you know this but from 2000 to 2017 the UK’s net contribution exceeded the net contributions of 26 other EU countries combined with only germany paying in more during this time...simple math says you will miss the contrubtion, but hey "The Project" comes first right
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the uk has a population of 66 million people. what crack are you smoking.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Nov 30, 2020)

StevenC said:


> I'm sorry for the double post, but anytime someone uses the phrase "once we start cutting red tape the economy will improve" I die a little inside knowing how many people are allowed to talk about things they don't even slightly comprehend.


LOL!
Wasting your breath mate, the bloke is so far down the Brexit rabbit hole he has no idea what the hell he is talking about, he is stuck in 2016 and oblivious to the truth that the UK has already left back in Jan and we are 31 days away from leaving with no deal even tho there was apprently this time last year an oven ready deal all good to go according to the Leave Goverment with the Brexit Bad Boy Boris in charge voted in with a huge Brexit supporting 80 seat majority.... 

Same as you, I love it when people claim there will no longer be any red tape...... No red tape right now! LOL! To export right now to the EU or countries the EU currently has trade deals with, there is no red tape. Post Brexit, the road haulage association is already stating that one lorry load, thats one lorry load of whatever, may need as many as 30 different forms completed before that *ONE* lorry can leave the UK and enter the EU, but you know..... Unicorns, Sunny Uplands, no more immigrants, Sovereignty, Laws.... blue passports?? Fishing?!??? Anyone?? Remoaners are doing something..... Anyone??? Bueller?? Bueller????

Also just to add regarding the UK being the 3rd highest contributer, thats as usual playing with the figures and only telling half the truth, the UK between 2014 & 2017 was the 3rd contributing country to the EU budget, HOWEVER....... to quote Fullfact.org as one of many examples of fact check sites:
"The UK also gives and receives much more money via trade with other EU countries, so transactions with the EU budget aren’t the full story when it comes to the UK’s economic relationship with the rest of the EU."

Net Givers AND receivers the UK is 6th behind the Netherlands, Belgium and Sweden, and the UK's pro Bexit whipping boys Germany and France.......
Per Capita we are 5th, behind such tiny countries (population and GDP) as Denmark & Sweden again
& Portion of GDP we are 4th, again behind Sweden and the Netherlands, and only just above Denmark & Austria......

https://fullfact.org/europe/uk-one-biggest-contributors-eu-budget/
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48256318


----------



## Louis Cypher (Nov 30, 2020)

Omzig said:


> Well id say it's due to weak Prime Minister's, Cowardly Cameron and Treasonous May + Remainer MP's and lords.....



Sorry to double post but I love that Cameron is apprently to blame as to why in the last 4 & half years we still havent got a deal yet, even tho he quit as PM the day after the Referendum result and so has had no influence or say at all in whats happened since!! LOL! He has been far too busy on his autobiography and making a fortune on the Speech making circuit! Only time he has popped up was when all the other living former PM's came out to condemn the breaking of international law by this Goverment & current Prime Minister in order to break a deal already signed by the goverment, that apprently was so good it didnt even need to be read according to Ian Duncan Smith


----------



## Emperoff (Nov 30, 2020)

Andromalia said:


> Er, no, the UK isn't a founding member of the EU lol.
> Besides, I'm pretty sure the end result isn't "good for you" with a reunited Ireland and independent Scotland incoming.
> And I just realised this actually wasn't the Brexit topic so I'll stop there. Feel free to raise the subject on the appropriate one.



Having visited Scotland a couple of times, I can't imagine their historical happyness if they get independent again. They really hate being part of the UK even if most don't speak openly about it. The only reason the previous attempt to get independent failed was because of them not wanting to get out of the EU (specially immigrants). Now that ship has sailed.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 5, 2021)

Sorry for the Necro-ish bump guys. 

So from what I can see guitars coming into mainland UK from the EU are now going to get a 20% VAT charge (plus import duty?). Jeez!! Sucks if true. Is that going to be charged at source or like previous imports from outside the EU you actually pay the courier on delivery? Here's the next mental part...I live in Northern Ireland and it looks like I would still get guitars from the EU with zero charges BUT guitars/gear coming from mainland UK are going to be subject to customs checks....


----------



## thebeesknees22 (Jan 5, 2021)

OOOUCH! 20%?! I feel for you guys. That's bananas


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Jan 5, 2021)

I think the VAT stuff is covered in the annexes to the trade deal apparently. There’s supposed to be something about goods assembled in the EU being VAT exempt when shipped to the U.K. and vice versa, but finished goods originating from outside the EU but shipped from the EU will be charged. I THINK...

If this works like I understand it, you wouldn’t pay VAT on a Mayones, made in Poland, from a shop in France, but you would if you bought an Ibanez made in Japan from the same shop.

Well in fact that’s what *I* would be subject to, living in Great Britain. You living in Northern Ireland will be able to get goods from the EU like you could 5 years ago.

My prediction is that Ireland will end up uniting and Scotland will go independent. Boris Johnson will deny it’s his fault and Nigel Farage will have another shot at politics to see if there’s still some damage that he can still cause...


----------



## Zhysick (Jan 5, 2021)

United Ireland and independent Scotland sounds really good


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Jan 5, 2021)

United Ireland would probably be in name only and see the rise of domestic terrorism. Independent Scotland would need to join the EU as soon as possible or it’d run out of money.


----------



## Zhysick (Jan 5, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> United Ireland would probably be in name only and see the rise of domestic terrorism. Independent Scotland would need to join the EU as soon as possible or it’d run out of money.



There are a lot of people in Ireland that wouldn't mind a united Ireland BUT they don't make as much noise as the ones that won't ever want a united Ireland. On the other hand, I am sure that there are more people that, in 2019 would have said no to the reunion but in 2021 things have changed with Brexit... It would be hard but I think none of them want a frontier there and many wouldn't mind the reunion as long as they can continue their lives without going north (like they haven't done in the last 40 years or more... I met people that have never been to N. Ireland and don't want to go and will never go but wouldn't mind a reunion if that's better for the economy or other things)

How will that affect to the UK-Brexit-guitar prices? I don't know


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 5, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> I think the VAT stuff is covered in the annexes to the trade deal apparently. There’s supposed to be something about goods assembled in the EU being VAT exempt when shipped to the U.K. and vice versa, but finished goods originating from outside the EU but shipped from the EU will be charged. I THINK...
> 
> If this works like I understand it, you wouldn’t pay VAT on a Mayones, made in Poland, from a shop in France, but you would if you bought an Ibanez made in Japan from the same shop.
> 
> ...



Pretty damn crazy. The Ibanez thing for You and I is a bummer! I must look into the custom shop thing. Vandermeij etc for me would be free to import to NI...cool but a £3000 axe for you guys would be like £600 to import!! If that's the case you are better off getting them shipped to guys in Northern Ireland and paying the £30-£40 shipping back to the mainland. Oh yeah...btw you are spot on...United Ireland would be a catastrophe.


----------



## cip 123 (Jan 5, 2021)

I think unless you're well off, right now isn't really the time to be importing guitars. Global economies aren't doing great let alone the UK. 

I think it'll eventually work itself out, for better or for worse. And if it doesn't more reason to buy from local builders!


----------



## StevenC (Jan 5, 2021)

I've got some stuff coming from a UK vendor and I'm looking forward to seeing if there's any additional documentation on it. 

Need to make a Thomann order for some stuff but hoping one of you guys does it first to test.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 6, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I've got some stuff coming from a UK vendor and I'm looking forward to seeing if there's any additional documentation on it.
> 
> Need to make a Thomann order for some stuff but hoping one of you guys does it first to test.



I've read that there is a grace period until April 1st before paperwork and customs checks become necessary from GB to NI but will be interested to hear if your gear comes through okay.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 6, 2021)

I hope the op is enjoying those new lower prices.


----------



## StevenC (Jan 8, 2021)

No additional documentation that I saw with my UK order, though the tracking was really screwed up and estimated it for next week while showing up out of the blue today.

----

As for Thomann:
https://www.thomann.de/gb/faq_question_information_for_non_eu_countries.html

Relevant bit:
"VAT will be added and charged by Thomann GmbH after processing an order only if the net value of the items is equal or less than 135.00 GBP or if delivery will be to Northern Ireland. In these cases, no additional fee will have to be paid upon delivery."

So looks like IbanezDaemon and I are good for now on Thomann orders, but mainland customers will be handed a VAT/duty bill from the delivery company on orders over £135.

I did notice the price of my basket got all screwed up since the new year and they changed the free shipping threshold from £99 to £135 (coincidentally).

EDIT: on playing around with the basket/checkout, my order got to £135.30 and inputting my address hasn't triggered it to apply VAT yet, but not going to make the order until next week anyway to find out.


----------



## bostjan (Jan 8, 2021)

IbanezDaemon said:


> I live in Northern Ireland and it looks like I would still get guitars from the EU with zero charges BUT guitars/gear coming from mainland UK are going to be subject to customs checks....


Late to the party, but this is the most intriguing part of Brexit to me (and, I think, to a lot of other people outside of the UK). Northern Ireland is going to be part of the UK, but exit the EU, but still have all sorts of open policies with Ireland. Seems like the weird limbo status there might lead to some corporations moving to Belfast, even if their HQ there is just a glorified post box. Once the UK catches on to what's happening, and I guess they might do so as soon as the rest of the nation's economy starts to look like brexit was a bad idea in very concrete terms, there might be some strange policies in follow-up. Or maybe everything with brexit will somehow magically work itself out in the next couple of weeks and everyone in the UK will become independently very wealthy and buy all of the guitars despite the 20% VAT.


----------



## StevenC (Jan 8, 2021)

bostjan said:


> Late to the party, but this is the most intriguing part of Brexit to me (and, I think, to a lot of other people outside of the UK). Northern Ireland is going to be part of the UK, but exit the EU, but still have all sorts of open policies with Ireland. Seems like the weird limbo status there might lead to some corporations moving to Belfast, even if their HQ there is just a glorified post box. Once the UK catches on to what's happening, and I guess they might do so as soon as the rest of the nation's economy starts to look like brexit was a bad idea in very concrete terms, there might be some strange policies in follow-up. Or maybe everything with brexit will somehow magically work itself out in the next couple of weeks and everyone in the UK will become independently very wealthy and buy all of the guitars despite the 20% VAT.


I don't know why VAT hasn't gone back to pre-EU Purcahse Tax levels either, while we're talking about it.

But yeah, nobody is happy about the NI situation because it's so nebulous and is going to cause problems. But it's (Brexit's) what the DUP wanted so nebulous state of their union membership was really the only solution. Any good that comes of it will be entirely unintentional and any bad that comes of it has been entirely foreseen.

Also on the NI situation, the NI Assembly get to vote on the Protocol every 4 years. Which is great because they've given the veto on a massively important trade deal to a small, volatile consortium of radical groups. And since the whole trade deal all hinges on the 4 yearly approval of a bunch of ignoramuses, the UK offers no secure future to any business that might consider investing there. Until such times as Northern Ireland is cast off from the rest of the Union.

Mice voting for cats.


----------



## Lozek (Jan 8, 2021)

Yep, I had to cancel all my Christmas leave trying to rush through changes to Corporate finance systems when the NI tax situation finally got announced, about ten days before Brexit. NI businesses will have two VAT numbers, their standard GB Vat and then an identical EU Vat number starting with XI to be used on EU trade. Effectively it sets up a customs border between them and the mainland, where goods will be liable for Import tax but trade between NI and the Irish Republic will remain frictionless.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 10, 2021)

Lozek said:


> Yep, I had to cancel all my Christmas leave trying to rush through changes to Corporate finance systems when the NI tax situation finally got announced, about ten days before Brexit. NI businesses will have two VAT numbers, their standard GB Vat and then an identical EU Vat number starting with XI to be used on EU trade. Effectively it sets up a customs border between them and the mainland, where goods will be liable for Import tax but trade between NI and the Irish Republic will remain frictionless.



I've read that there is a transition period on parcels from GB to Northern Ireland until March 31st with no additional requirements from individuals in GB sending goods to NI residents and businesses unless they are prohibited or excise goods. Do you know if this is the case?


----------



## Lozek (Jan 11, 2021)

IbanezDaemon said:


> I've read that there is a transition period on parcels from GB to Northern Ireland until March 31st with no additional requirements from individuals in GB sending goods to NI residents and businesses unless they are prohibited or excise goods. Do you know if this is the case?



I have heard that from a few places, but didn't have to do anything officially to enforce it. 

My work doesn't really touch on the logistics side so much as the financial reporting of it upfront/after the fact. The particular system I work with had to identify and report tax on goods travelling GB/Europe and Import tax when it encounters it, it's not really concerned about when it occurred other than post 31/12/20.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 11, 2021)

Lozek said:


> I have heard that from a few places, but didn't have to do anything officially to enforce it.
> 
> My work doesn't really touch on the logistics side so much as the financial reporting of it upfront/after the fact. The particular system I work with had to identify and report tax on goods travelling GB/Europe and Import tax when it encounters it, it's not really concerned about when it occurred other than post 31/12/20.



Thanks for getting back to me. I'm sure I read about that somewhere. Will see if I can find the link.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 11, 2021)

Lozek said:


> I have heard that from a few places, but didn't have to do anything officially to enforce it.
> 
> My work doesn't really touch on the logistics side so much as the financial reporting of it upfront/after the fact. The particular system I work with had to identify and report tax on goods travelling GB/Europe and Import tax when it encounters it, it's not really concerned about when it occurred other than post 31/12/20.



Sending parcels between Great Britain and Northern Ireland - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)


----------



## Mathemagician (Jan 22, 2021)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-eu-delivery-charges-vat-b1791148.html


----------



## mbardu (Jan 22, 2021)

Mathemagician said:


> https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-uk-eu-delivery-charges-vat-b1791148.html



Geez, who would have thought!


----------



## Mathemagician (Jan 22, 2021)

mbardu said:


> Geez, who would have thought!



I refrained from any “sarcastic” comments. Because a lot of people’s livelihoods are going to be affected by the lies fed to them by elected officials who they put trust in. 

Leaving a trade Union will have negative effects on trade. The fact that anyone said otherwise is going to be an unfortunate and rude awakening.


----------



## mpexus (Jan 22, 2021)

Bruce Dickinson voted Yes


----------



## Mathemagician (Jan 22, 2021)

Yes to stay, or yes to leave? A whole bunch of musicians voted to leave. 

More importantly why would anyone care what a what a musician thinks about economic policy?


----------



## mpexus (Jan 22, 2021)

Obvious it was Yes to Leave... 


Also he is first a Citizen and after a Musician. He is also an Entrepeneur and Business man. So one would assume he would be against it.


----------



## Edika (Jan 22, 2021)

I see that mostly used gear sales will go down between EU and GB. Because you'll just have added VAT and import duties for used gears. Theoretically buying from any EU shop they'll have to sell it without VAT to be charged when entering the UK. 

They say N.Ireland will be exempt from this but I can more or less see Royal Mail charging VAT for something coming to N.Ireland, regardless if the vat has been included in the price. We'll see how it will actually evolve.

I wonder if one wants to buy a guitar from a UK shop in N.Ireland, how will VAT be handled? A crap sandwich for sure.


----------



## sleewell (Jan 22, 2021)

a huge self own for sure. 

has anyone traced it back to figure out why the people who led the campaign to leave did this? obviously for financial reasons but what were they exactly??


----------



## mbardu (Jan 22, 2021)

Mathemagician said:


> I refrained from any “sarcastic” comments. Because a lot of people’s livelihoods are going to be affected by the lies fed to them by elected officials who they put trust in.
> 
> Leaving a trade Union will have negative effects on trade. The fact that anyone said otherwise is going to be an unfortunate and rude awakening.



Sarcastic on my end comes mostly from anger and frustration.
I have direct family living in London and this whole situation sucks balls.


----------



## anunnaki (Jan 23, 2021)

Edika said:


> I see that mostly used gear sales will go down between EU and GB. Because you'll just have added VAT and import duties for used gears. Theoretically buying from any EU shop they'll have to sell it without VAT to be charged when entering the UK.
> 
> They say N.Ireland will be exempt from this but I can more or less see Royal Mail charging VAT for something coming to N.Ireland, regardless if the vat has been included in the price. We'll see how it will actually evolve.
> 
> I wonder if one wants to buy a guitar from a UK shop in N.Ireland, how will VAT be handled? A crap sandwich for sure.



I am in NI. Some shops in GB are already refusing to sell to people in NI due to the lack of understanding or unwillingness to fill out the required paperwork.


----------



## Edika (Jan 24, 2021)

anunnaki said:


> I am in NI. Some shops in GB are already refusing to sell to people in NI due to the lack of understanding or unwillingness to fill out the required paperwork.



I have only bought small value stuff from ebay so far. I'm wondering if I get a guitar new or used from the UK if I'll have the same issue, either going through ebay or the shop directly. It might require a few months for things to clear up.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Jan 24, 2021)

@anunnaki @Edika I contacted the Northern Ireland Consumer Council on the VAT issue and got this reply on 13th January:

'HI Paul, thanks for your message. VAT for NI consumers buying goods from GB retailers won’t change. As from yesterday, the GB retailer will include the VAT in the purchase price.'

I think UPS were the courier that charged the VAT again. I've spoken to a few guys that had gear delivered via Royal Mail/Parcelforce and there was no additional VAT on delivery.


----------



## Mathemagician (Jan 24, 2021)

Edit: Multi-post


----------



## possumkiller (Jan 24, 2021)

I'm starting to think the whole brexit thing may not have been the best idea to start with.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Jan 24, 2021)

sleewell said:


> a huge self own for sure.
> 
> has anyone traced it back to figure out why the people who led the campaign to leave did this? obviously for financial reasons but what were they exactly??



Effectively those with wealth held in foreign currency and then living and spending in the U.K. made money on the devaluation of the GBP. It also allowed those who orchestrated the campaign to further enhance the class divide of haves and have nots; those most likely to be adversely affected by Brexit are in lower income or more manual trades whose workers and civil rights can be eroded without the protection of the EU. 

The orchestrators are typically also ‘old fashioned’, regarded (rightly or wrongly) as bigoted xenophobes and generally terrible examples of decent human beings.

But that’s just like my opinion, man


----------



## Alex79 (Jan 24, 2021)

I’ve actually relocated with my family. Got a new job in Germany, where I’m originally from. I’m not British, I’m German/American, but my wife is, so a big change, and all rushed because the twats couldn’t get any rules straight or clear, so my wife had to be in Germany and fully registered before the end of December, or she would loose the right to work here. Not even driving licenses were sorted in late November! What a move as well, with two small children! Left so many friends and good memories behind, but somehow I’m still glad I left that “shit show” behind.

And don’t forget the double “shit show”! Complete mess of Brexit and worst coronavirus handling in the world! Well done, Boris! 

There’s lots of news now of hauliers not even travelling to the UK because of the delays and the paperwork. Ridiculous!


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Jan 24, 2021)

The recent British government advice to British companies struggling with Brexit fallout was ... open a company in the EU.

Remember “There is no plan for no deal, because we’re going to get a great deal.” Thanks, Boris.

#leavemeansleave #takingbackcontrol


----------



## cip 123 (Jan 24, 2021)

Guess those router bits from Germany might take a while...


----------



## StevenC (Jan 24, 2021)

I'm only slightly tempted to become a smuggler.


----------



## cip 123 (Jan 25, 2021)

StevenC said:


> I'm only slightly tempted to become a smuggler.


I’ll give you a free fretboard if you get those router bits over to me


----------



## VMNT (Jan 25, 2021)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277
I guess buying guitars won't be much different unfortunately


----------



## laxu (Jan 25, 2021)

VMNT said:


> View attachment 89430
> 
> https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55734277
> I guess buying guitars won't be much different unfortunately



Seems that starting from this year, if I were to order a guitar from the UK to Finland, I would pay the no-VAT price and then pay my domestic customs and VAT when the guitar arrives into my country.

Definitely need to be more careful buying anything from say UK Amazon, Andertons etc as those extra costs are often not shown. Similar to how it has been for US.


----------



## 1b4n3z (Jan 25, 2021)

And buying used incurs VAT charge too - that is a big source of nice gear crossed off the list


----------



## Louis Cypher (Jan 25, 2021)

VAT & duty on used gear from outside the EU the last few years has always been a deal breaker, especially with the drop in the value of the pound to $ rates for example. But now 20% is due on top of any EU order in to the UK its pointless, unless your lucky that money is no object to you, and obviously this applies to sales from the UK too, why would you buy now from a UK Reverb or eBay seller and pay X% on top now in VAT & Duty??
But you know thankfully we took back control of our laws and boarders and what not


----------



## Andromalia (Jan 29, 2021)

Louis Cypher said:


> VAT & duty on used gear from outside the EU the last few years has always been a deal breaker,



What last few years ? It has been the case for at least twenty years.

The way it should work is:

-You are not an EU resident, you should pay tax free price, and then be billed VAT from your country when importing to the UK.
-You are an EU resident, you pay the regular price.

You certainly don't have to pay VAT on both sides. There are two ways this can go:
-Shops getting special procedures for UK people, which will require proof of residence
-Shops will tell the brits to GTFO as they don't want the added bureaucratic hassle

Guess it depends on how much the brits weigh in the EU shops account sheets. By the same token, if Anderton's want to keep their EU customers, they'll have to deal with duty free sales.


----------



## _MonSTeR_ (Jan 30, 2021)

Andromalia said:


> What last few years ? It has been the case for at least twenty years.
> 
> The way it should work is:
> 
> ...



I agree 100%

Basically European shops will need to start thinking globally if they want to keep their 2020 markets.

The U.K. and EU are now very different markets in terms of trade. If companies like Anderton’s and Thomann want to have access they’ll need to adapt to the new tax arrangements. Ikebe and Ishibashi have managed to do tax free overseas sales for years so if European stores can’t or won’t adapt, they bring the repercussions on themselves.

That said, I wonder how much business these European shops would have done outside their native lands when they’re all selling basically the same stuff for basically the same price?


----------



## Sumsar (Jan 30, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> That said, I wonder how much business these European shops would have done outside their native lands when they’re all selling basically the same stuff for basically the same price?



There is some cross trading between countries, but it depends very much on what type of wares we are talking about. A fun example is beer and alcohol, because the prices differ due to additional taxes and also prices reflecting income in the respective countries.

There is a fun beerchain that goes like this: Norwegians drive to the Swedish border to buy beer, Swedish people drive to Denmark to buy beer. Danish people drive to the sourthen border to Germany to buy beer. Germans buy Beer in Poland or the Czech Republic.
Stupid thing is that beer like Carlsberg is all maid in the same 1 or 2 factories / breweries in EU, so it is the same product, just at different prices with different taxes.

It goes the other way with work forces such as craftsmen to renovate houses and such. In Denmark if you want it done cheaper you hire Polish craftsman to do it, because they are as good as the danish, but cost half. One of my collegaues from Poland (I am working in IT) is currently having his house build by Ukrainian craftsmen, because all the good Polish craftsmen has apparently gone to Denmark and UK (guess the UK ones will be coming back), since they get a much higher pay that way.


----------



## Lozek (Jan 30, 2021)

Sumsar said:


> There is some cross trading between countries, but it depends very much on what type of wares we are talking about. A fun example is beer and alcohol, because the prices differ due to additional taxes and also prices reflecting income in the respective countries.
> 
> There is a fun beerchain that goes like this: Norwegians drive to the Swedish border to buy beer, Swedish people drive to Denmark to buy beer. Danish people drive to the sourthen border to Germany to buy beer. Germans buy Beer in Poland or the Czech Republic.
> Stupid thing is that beer like Carlsberg is all maid in the same 1 or 2 factories / breweries in EU, so it is the same product, just at different prices with different taxes.
> ...



This is exactly right, I'm from the UK and my wife is Polish. Some of the justification for leave voters was that UK markets were being de-valued by European workers who will work cheaper, accept temporary bad living conditions, move money back to their home country and have it multiply via exchange rate, then return after a few years and be way ahead financially than if they had stayed in their native country. The exchange rate UK to Poland normally hovers around 4.5 to 1 so, taking into account cost of living while here, they can build financially at around triple speed.

There is also more of a tendency for temporary workers to build isolated communities and not integrate. While I can never fault people doing what needs to be done to get ahead in life if it is legal and somewhat ethical, at the same point it attaches a stigma to someone like my wife who came here to integrate with and contribute to UK society.


----------



## mehegama (Jan 30, 2021)

since when do we pay vat on used stuff from EU? My understanding is that with the trade deal, on brand new, we pay no fees, duties etc. The prices quoted are with no VAT and we pay the VAT in the UK (we used to have prices with the vat already added in the price so not really a change here).
Since when do we pay VAT on used staff? Has the new trade deal refers specifically to used staff bough from private citizens? 
I ve bought stuff in ebay from europe and asia and never had any issues with customs. taxes etc.


----------



## Sumsar (Jan 30, 2021)

Lozek said:


> This is exactly right, I'm from the UK and my wife is Polish. Some of the justification for leave voters was that UK markets were being de-valued by European workers who will work cheaper, accept temporary bad living conditions, move money back to their home country and have it multiply via exchange rate, then return after a few years and be way ahead financially than if they had stayed in their native country. The exchange rate UK to Poland normally hovers around 4.5 to 1 so, taking into account cost of living while here, they can build financially at around triple speed.
> 
> There is also more of a tendency for temporary workers to build isolated communities and not integrate. While I can never fault people doing what needs to be done to get ahead in life if it is legal and somewhat ethical, at the same point it attaches a stigma to someone like my wife who came here to integrate with and contribute to UK society.



Yes I agree on many of the points. It causes some social problems and undercut the Danish salaries. There is an apartment in my building where I think 3 or 4 east europeans are living pretty much in the way you state. On the other hand, if you can come to my country, not speaking the language or knowing anyway and still do a better job than the hereborn workers I sort of have a hard time seeing what the problem is. Then you have to up your game a lot if it is so easy to undercut you.

It is weird how socialism very much have borders. Workers here have unions and so forth so that they can get better paid, have better working hours, more vacation etc, yet they do not sympethize with like minded workers from other countries, even if they have more in common than they do with the elite of those countries, who plays the groups againts each other.

In the longer run, I think wee will see and evening out. Not that countries like Denmark will become poore, but that Poland and other relatively 'poorer' countries will catch up, at which point that trafic of workers will disappear mostly. Poland left the Soviet union 31 years ago, and they do seem to have come very far in that time.


----------



## I play music (Jan 30, 2021)

Sumsar said:


> There is some cross trading between countries, but it depends very much on what type of wares we are talking about. A fun example is beer and alcohol, because the prices differ due to additional taxes and also prices reflecting income in the respective countries.
> 
> There is a fun beerchain that goes like this: Norwegians drive to the Swedish border to buy beer, Swedish people drive to Denmark to buy beer. Danish people drive to the sourthen border to Germany to buy beer. Germans buy Beer in Poland or the Czech Republic.
> Stupid thing is that beer like Carlsberg is all maid in the same 1 or 2 factories / breweries in EU, so it is the same product, just at different prices with different taxes.
> ...


Your information is wrong
We Germans buy German beer because it's the best


----------



## Andromalia (Jan 30, 2021)

French buy their beer in Belgium because we're not delusional like the germans. 



> Ikebe and Ishibashi have managed to do tax free overseas sales for years


It's different. I suppose the USA are a big enough chunk of their customers that they'll bother doing it. The simple answer is, companies will do it if it's profitable. Thomann might not, since they'd lose "just" the UK. Anderton's might, since they'd lose all of EU. It's not like it's an equal weight all around.


----------



## Celtic Frosted Flakes (Jan 30, 2021)

_MonSTeR_ said:


> The U.K. and EU are now very different markets in terms of trade. If companies like Anderton’s and Thomann want to have access they’ll need to adapt to the new tax arrangements. Ikebe and Ishibashi have managed to do tax free overseas sales for years so if European stores can’t or won’t adapt, they bring the repercussions on themselves.



Thomann does not charged tax when shipping outside the EU, and I am pretty sure Andertons didn't charge it either the one time I purchased something from them back in 2012 or 2013.


----------



## Be_eM (Jan 31, 2021)

Information from Thomann: 

Brexit: An Update for our valued UK customers


----------



## Edika (Jan 31, 2021)

mehegama said:


> since when do we pay vat on used stuff from EU? My understanding is that with the trade deal, on brand new, we pay no fees, duties etc. The prices quoted are with no VAT and we pay the VAT in the UK (we used to have prices with the vat already added in the price so not really a change here).
> Since when do we pay VAT on used staff? Has the new trade deal refers specifically to used staff bough from private citizens?
> I ve bought stuff in ebay from europe and asia and never had any issues with customs. taxes etc.



We would pay VAT on anything used that came outside of the single market in EU and UK. There was the option to declare the item as a gift but it wasn't a sue way of avoiding VAT as I think you could not use insurance on the shipment. If you used insurance and declared the real value then the recipient had to pay VAT regardless of gift status or not. Otherwise you had to declare a really low value and then be screwed if something happened to the package. Or if the custom office was particularly diligent and recognise a high value item, they would still charge you VAT lol!

So this is now the situation in the UK and EU. Theoretically if you sell used stuff online and make a profit you need to declare it to HMRC in the Capital Gain section. Until £20K profit you pay not tax but then start paying 20% on profits. But then you need to do a self assessment etc etc. So to be competitive selling or buying used stuff in the EU the prices has to be 20% lower than what is being sold. Or to be selling something really rare so people would not mind paying extra.


----------



## Louis Cypher (Jan 31, 2021)

Andromalia said:


> What last few years ? It has been the case for at least twenty years



The rest of my sentence explained what I was talking about. The Vat/Duty has always been due but the value of the pound to the euro or the dollar was always good enough that the exchange rate meant even if VAT and duty was added it still meant a saving over UK price's. The drops in the pound since the 2008 crash but inparticular since 2016 Brexit out come has meant orders from anywhere other than the EU was pointless, now we have left the EU and the weakness of the pound mean its pointless ordering from there too if your looking to save money over UK prices.


----------



## VMNT (Feb 4, 2021)

Has anyone tried buying anything from thomann yet?


----------

