# Can you seperate the music from the person?



## sleewell (Feb 3, 2021)

Havent listened to lorna shore much in a while. Havent been paying attention I guess. Signs of the swarm popped up in my recommendations so I gave it a spin. Took me a second to realize it was the same dude. 


I'm sure there are lots of examples of people who might be complete dirtbags in real life who make music you would otherwise dig. Are you able to appreciate the music or is knowing it a deal breaker for you? Honestly I'm not sure where I land on this...

I can see not caring and just focusing on the music but then it's like are you allowing or even supporting that person to keep being that way?


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 3, 2021)

I think art should always be judged on its own merits, not based off of the creator's issues. Passing judgement on art based off the creator's issues is a cheap tactic to make less interesting art seem more interesting due to the story surrounding it. This kind of shit is rampant in modern art (see Jackson Pollock, Diego Rivera, Marcel Duchamp)


A great example of being able to separate the art from the creator for me is Caravaggio's work. I absolutely love his paintings but by all accounts he was a murderer, thief, boy lover and general piece of shit.

Do I condone Tim Lambesis for trying to have his wife killed? hell no, but I still like his band.
Same thing with CJ and Lorna Shore.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2021)

I think it's a nuanced thing that can't be distilled to a "yes/no" sort of position.

I think most folks have a line that can't be crossed and that's going to vary significantly from person to person.

Also, a lot of stuff doesn't age well as we, as a society, progress and realize that some stuff just isn't okay.

I mean, I wore Skynyrd and Pantera shirts with the confederate flag, in the 90's it was no big deal. Now? I think it's cringey as fuck. Does that mean I think those guys are racist, seditious shit heads? Nah. Just a little ignorant, and well, a lot of those guys are dead now so what does it matter to stop listening? I'm not buying anything from them.

Terrible people can make great things, and good people can be complex and a little bad also. The important thing is coming to terms with that, admitting it's a problem, and not just putting your head in the sand.


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## Musiscience (Feb 3, 2021)

As long as it gives revenue to the artist, I don't separate the art and artist and stop buying or streaming anything they do. If they don't get revenue from it, then I don't really care. In a time where there are just so many good bands and artists with easily accessible material, I don't see why I'd give money to the few that I know are scumbags. 

For example, Jonny Craig has such a solid voice, but complete asshole otherwise (domestic violence, ripping off fans for drug money, a known woman abuser, etc). But since his bands have said he doesn't get royalties since they dropped him, I still spin the records from time to time. 

It gets more complicated for bands. Ex. Deftones. I don't want to support Stephen Carpenter at all, but it sucks for the rest of the band who work really hard on their craft.

For Marilyn Manson, it's not even a dilemma. Read: K thanks bye you rapist abuser.


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## aesthyrian (Feb 3, 2021)

For me, when my money is involved, no. It's just "art", or in this case pretty generic metal music. I can easily move on and focus my time and energy and finances in supporting something that is a bit more morally and ethically aligned with myself. But I try to live my life like that in nearly every regard. It's all personal, and I know I'm the minority but with so many people and so much music out there, I just won't choose to stick around in the mud.

And, if for some reason I just can't move on, then I'll just steal the music and never go see them live. Because at the end of the day, fuck them haha. I'm an odd person though.


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## Werecow (Feb 3, 2021)

I can listen to the music but i just can't give money to terrible people. I just can't. It's happened with bands i love, and i don't just feel upset about how terrible the person is, it's upsetting cuz i know i won't buy any more of their stuff.

A really old example is i bought Deicide - Once Upon The Cross and loved it. Then that Benton fucker started giving interviews about literally torturing animals for fun. I never bought anything of theirs again.

Same thing happened again recently with Stephen Carpenter and his dangerous to society crazy headed opinions. No more money at all from me.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 3, 2021)

If you only listened to music from pure innocent people you wouldn't have much of a selection left.

Some people are bad people and sometimes they make good music. I really like Charles Manson's music..but the dude was clearly a loon.

There also comes a lot of bullshit when celebs get found out about. Allegations, flat out lies, media hype, etc. I'm not much into getting into all that shit. Unless it's blatantly obvious, like Charles Manson or Phil Anselmo or something like that...I just shrug it off.


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2021)

I generally try not to financially support douche bags


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## odibrom (Feb 3, 2021)

My answer is YES until we know the story behind the art object (music or something else) and the author. Let's make a smell test, can we agree that the following painting is well executed,? Can we appreciate the painting by what it is, a painting? I'll let you know who the author is in a few posts.. Now for this to take effect, those who know, please don't say and those who don't, please don't go search for it, ok? Let's just appreciate this watercolor painting by its composition, color scheme, perspective, textures, shadows and light...


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## mbardu (Feb 3, 2021)

odibrom said:


> My answer is YES until we know the story behind the art object (music or something else) and the author. Let's make a smell test, can we agree that the following painting is well executed,? Can we appreciate the painting by what it is, a painting? I'll let you know who the author is in a few posts.. Now for this to take effect, those who know, please don't say and those who don't, please don't go search for it, ok? Let's just appreciate this watercolor painting by its composition, color scheme, perspective, textures, shadows and light...



Even if you don't know who painted this (and even if you don't _guess _based on the wording of your post), you can tell it was not from a talented "artist" in the true sense of the term.
Some technical knowledge and time went into this, sure, but no artistic genius or passion.
Just my 2 cents.


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## odibrom (Feb 3, 2021)

We can agree then that this may be an early piece of work. It was chosen for lacking a clear signature. The first image I selected had a huge signature and it kind of blew the game. Sure it is no genius (on this particular piece), but it has some understanding of forms and light.

I'll post another piece, same author. This one has a more complex drawing, bigger contrast between light and darkness, but still a limited color pallete.


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## MFB (Feb 3, 2021)

Not to be "that guy" but beating around the bush does tend to make it seem like it's going to be a deliberately bad person to illustrate the point of why the art should be separate from the person; however, prior knowledge of who did what isn't usually the way we find things out, it's usually the other way around which is why it's then tough to separate the art from the artist. The enjoyment of their product is already engrained in us, whereas if we know about their beliefs/etc beforehand, we might never even bother getting involved because of it.


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## mmr007 (Feb 3, 2021)

I have been very inconsistent over the years but am trending towards being less tolerant. I remember being pissed but eventually forgiving about Vince Neil but years later refusing to listen to or continue to download Azalea Banks music when I knew she was very homophobic which is not as bad as killing someone. 
I have come to terms that most musicians I listen to (and those I played with) are not people I would wanna hang out with but I will generally listen to them unless they are someone who purposely hurts another. 
Certainly if one of my favorite musicians pulled a Ray Rice or Michael Vick I would have the discipline to avoid their music permanently.


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## TedEH (Feb 3, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> If you only listened to music from pure innocent people you wouldn't have much of a selection left.


I was going to say something along these lines but you beat me to it. People in general are pretty terrible. And I don't mean to sound funny, but lots of metal lyrics/concepts/aesthestic tends to be centred around some pretty fvcked up ideas to begin with even if the artist is an otherwise "nice guy". Other genres do it too. The whole idea used to be that "living the lifestyle" was all about being a shitty person - we just romanticized it as "sex, drugs and rock n' roll".


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 3, 2021)

I couldn't care less in most cases, if I'm going to red light/green light everything I listen to that'd take an immeasurable amount of time that I'm just not willing to allocate.

I can however make a concerted effort and not listen to a band/artist if I find out they did something stupid. The person would have had to do some pretty abhorrent shit to make me want to stop listening to them.

And in the case of for example, Stephen Carpenter and Ian Watkins. There's a clear difference between an idiot who believes some garbage, and a literal pedophile.

But 9/10 I couldn't actually care less if the musician is just an asshole in his personal life, John Mayer had a notoriously bad rep back in the day. And some of my buddies would "guilt" me for listening to him, but I found it stranger to dwell on stuff like the guy's break ups with other musicians as a repellant to their art.

@sleewell I still listen to the newest Lorna Shore release, album slaps hard. But I also only ran into it well after the controversy, by the time he had collected his information and released a video clarifying events. I'm not going to pretend I remember 90% of this video, but I heard enough in the video that cleared up the misconceptions.

CJ McCreery Official Statement Video 2020 - YouTube

I would have listened to the album had I run into it prior to fall of last year, he's shitty person at worst, and at best a slandered guy who is probably an ok guy. So I don't see how that would have dictated wether or not I enjoy the band's collective efforts.


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## odibrom (Feb 3, 2021)

The thing is that no-one is a saint. In other words, _may the first one who have never sinned to throw the first stone_... The paintings above were made by Adolf Hitler (yes, the German _dude_) before he went into politics. It is said that he was refused to enter the Vienna Arts College and that the judges were Jews, hence his hate for them, but this is just "saying". Nevertheless, can we imagine that the person who sentenced many others to die in massive concentration camps was someone who used to paint landscapes, which suggests someone peacefull... right? These paintings were painted way before all the known WW2 History, can we still appreciate them? Same for music and most arts. Wagner was much appreciated within the Nazi party, can we still listen to his works?

The answer is YES we can, the problem is how will we feel afterwords? I generally look at art (music, painting, whatever) as an independent offspring of someone, with a life of its own. It is, however, our decision to support or not an author who's ideals and way of life are pretty much junk. Picasso wasn't that a really nice person and Dali was almost a con man, but people become what their surroundings reflect and their surroundings reflect what they are...

It's not that I don't care for the author's life story, I do, but some times their offsprings better them. Can a son be judged by his father's crimes?

Last idea, to me it's no a matter of tolerance but of conscience. We all know Mustain is grumpy and Malmsteen is whatever he is, but it's kind of ok since they didn't cross over the morality/law/crime line.

The news said that Marilyn Manson is going down for raping... can we still like his music? (I personally don't and never did, but it's for argument sake)


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I was going to say something along these lines but you beat me to it. People in general are pretty terrible. And I don't mean to sound funny, but lots of metal lyrics/concepts/aesthestic tends to be centred around some pretty fvcked up ideas to begin with even if the artist is an otherwise "nice guy". Other genres do it too. The whole idea used to be that "living the lifestyle" was all about being a shitty person - we just romanticized it as "sex, drugs and rock n' roll".



I think there's a big difference between incorporating macabre and/or taboo subjects into art, and actually hurting people in real life. 

At least that's my personal line in the sand. You can sing or paint or whatever about some pretty terrible things, but committing actual violent acts against another person or animal is a completely different ballpark. 

So Dying Fetus singing about brutally beating up someone isn't as bad as Marilyn Manson systematically abusing his teenage "girlfriend". 

I know some folks don't have as firm of a grasp on reality, or are really in on the shtick, but that's what 99.9% of it is, a shtick. The guys in Cannibal Corpse are 50+ year old dudes that have to go to bed early because thier bodies hurt. They have families. They shop at Target. They aren't thier stage persona in the same way that a thespian in a play isn't actually that person, but we play into it. It's like wrestling on TV. A soap opera that's only fun if you play along sometimes.


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## BenjaminW (Feb 4, 2021)

I'll go with yes because in my case, I grew up as a huge, huge Michael Jackson fan (I still am), and I'd been aware of the child molestation accusations against him as a little kid and basically any of the Wacko Jacko stuff that you hear about, but I just kinda chose to not care about it/believe it. It wasn't that I was in denial about one of my favorite artists' actions off stage, but I just didn't let it get to me.

Later on, once I really started getting into more of the rock and metal that I listen to, the big pattern among almost all of the musicians in the bands I like all had some kind of substance/alcohol issue. I remember telling my dad when I was younger that I wanted to be like Slash for example, but he had to tell me that I can like Slash as a musician, but just not as a person because of his addiction in the past.

So ultimately, I do separate the music from the person because even though I may be aware of who they are offstage, I just don't care about it because it's the last thing I care about when I'm listening to them and it was never something I cared about in the first place.


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## Dayn (Feb 4, 2021)

I listen to some Pantera and Megadeth, but the enjoyment has been sapped a fair bit for me. I'm all for 'death of the author', but sometimes the author is a malignant tumour that continually rises from the grave.


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## Manurack (Feb 4, 2021)

Have you been Following Marilyn Manson's shit on FB and metal/rock music pages? Apparently he's an abusive asshole, but makes good music.

The same thing happened a few years ago with Tim Lambesis of As I Lay Dying when he tried to have his estranged wife assassinated by a hitman.

Good music will and always be good music... But some people become monsters.

One of my favorite examples of this is Robb Flynn with Machine Head - The Blackening is a thrash metal masterpiece. But Flynn became so controlling and shit that bassist Adam Duce left. Then a couple years later, Phil Demmel and Dave McClain left.


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## Manurack (Feb 4, 2021)

Werecow said:


> I can listen to the music but i just can't give money to terrible people. I just can't. It's happened with bands i love, and i don't just feel upset about how terrible the person is, it's upsetting cuz i know i won't buy any more of their stuff.
> 
> A really old example is i bought Deicide - Once Upon The Cross and loved it. Then that Benton fucker started giving interviews about literally torturing animals for fun. I never bought anything of theirs again.
> 
> Same thing happened again recently with Stephen Carpenter and his dangerous to society crazy headed opinions. No more money at all from me.



I used to hunt for food. What Benton did is beyond fucked up.


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 4, 2021)

My 2 pence worth on this is at the end of the day its down to the individual as to what they want to spend their own hard earned money on. Its not black and white as Max said. Some "artists" continue to be popular and sell regardless of the allegations about them or the clear proof of what a fcuking lousy human they are for what they did or believed. Richard Wagner for example or as a modern example Chris Brown (RnB artist who still sells records by the bucket load even tho he has mutliple arrests for violence against women). Id also add Roman Polanski (on the run for raping an underage gril) and Woody Allen in to this list. Sometime the world turns and attitudes change and turns on some people who got away with their disgusting behaviour or beliefs for years like R Kelly. And then sometimes it comes to light what an artist has done and they and their career is killed stone dead, The Lost Prophets for example. And then sometimes musicians are just idiots or try too hard to cause some controversy like using the Rebel flag or Dani Filths Jesus is... tshirt

Its incredibily complicated, but its individual choice and freedoms on what you want to listen to or buy everyone is entitled to draw their own line in the sand over whats acceptable and what isnt. Unfortunatley some of the most vile human beings make some of the most beautiful and ground breaking artistic things during their lives, but then plenty of amazing people make incredible music/art/film etc too


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I was going to say something along these lines but you beat me to it. People in general are pretty terrible. And I don't mean to sound funny, but lots of metal lyrics/concepts/aesthestic tends to be centred around some pretty fvcked up ideas to begin with even if the artist is an otherwise "nice guy". Other genres do it too. The whole idea used to be that "living the lifestyle" was all about being a shitty person - we just romanticized it as "sex, drugs and rock n' roll".



Yeah I really don't care about an artist's personal life unless he/she makes it too bad to ignore.


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## p0ke (Feb 4, 2021)

Like basically everyone said, it depends. 

For example with Phil Anselmo, yeah, I'm disappointed in him, but him being racist doesn't make Pantera any worse for me. If he released some racist stuff I wouldn't buy it, but I wouldn't buy his stuff either way because apart from Pantera I never liked anything he did.

Then there's Jon Schaffer... I was about to buy the remixed Iced Earth self titled album along with some merch, but thanks to his idiotic behaviour I just won't do it. I mean, it's one thing to have opinions about politics, but actually attacking people is just stupid. And since Iced Earth is all his thing, I'm not throwing any money at it. Doesn't stop me from streaming it though...

As for Marilyn Manson, I'm not at all surprised that he might actually be a fucked up person, but I never cared for his music in the first place, so it doesn't make much difference. Same for most of the other guys mentioned here.


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## Musiscience (Feb 4, 2021)

odibrom said:


> My answer is YES until we know the story behind the art object (music or something else) and the author. Let's make a smell test, can we agree that the following painting is well executed,? Can we appreciate the painting by what it is, a painting? I'll let you know who the author is in a few posts.. Now for this to take effect, those who know, please don't say and those who don't, please don't go search for it, ok? Let's just appreciate this watercolor painting by its composition, color scheme, perspective, textures, shadows and light...


Oh you mean THAT technically well executed but soulless Hitler painting? The Vienna Academy wanted none of it 

But seriously, I would have no problem with it. He's dead, so he's not benefiting from it. Furthermore, the paintings do not convey any Nazi ideologies. It's all about impact of your own actions. That makes the moral element case by case for me, depending on the context. A painting of slavery is very different depending on if it comes from a master or from a descendant of a slave depicting the hardships of his ancestors. Buying the second is ok to me, but not the first (unless it is to gift it to a museum to document art history).


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## NoodleFace (Feb 4, 2021)

Really depends. I still enjoy dissection even though Jon killed someone. I find certain people get a pass while others don't. I know a lot of people that swore off all of AILD when lambesis tried to have his wife killed.


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## TedEH (Feb 4, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think there's a big difference between incorporating macabre and/or taboo subjects into art, and actually hurting people in real life.


Absolutely, but at the same time sometimes where there's smoke there's fire so to speak. We can brush off lots of examples of the "it's just some old dudes who are actually nice guys, who just like to sing songs about rape for some reason" right up until you encounter the weirdos who didn't realize "it was just a joke bro" or the copycats who actually are kinda rape-y in real life, etc. Some people take their "scene" VERY seriously. I think black metal is a good example of that - it's all just entertainment right up until you start setting buildings on fire and stabbing people. There are definitely some who take the aesthetic of their music to _be_ the message. I've met a number of "punks" (I don't really have the right word for it) who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw, some metalheads, black metal bros, etc., who I wouldn't want to encounter in a back alley somewhere.

I agree, very generally speaking, with everyone who is entirely on the side of separating the artist and the art. At the same time I think we can't disregard the huge dissonance in saying "I don't condone rape and murder" etc. while listening and putting out songs all about glorifying rape and murder. At that point, it's the song itself that makes me uncomfortable, not the artist - but the art doesn't spawn from nowhere.

Granted it's two very different conversations, but I think the "good guys who make bad stuff" needs to be considered/talked about as much as the "bad guys who make good stuff". On some level, all else being equal, I think I'd prefer the idea of someone displaying or appreciating say a painting of a landscape done by Hitler, compared to putting up a painting of someone being assaulted. On a more realistic level, I'd care more about which one is just the better painting, or what the story behind the piece was, but either way.


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## Triple7 (Feb 4, 2021)

I try to separate the two. I have run into this dilemma with Ovid's Withering. Scryers of the Ibis is one of my all time favorite albums, but apparently the guitarist and main songwriter pulled some grimy shit the broke up the band.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 4, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Absolutely, but at the same time sometimes where there's smoke there's fire so to speak. We can brush off lots of examples of the "it's just some old dudes who are actually nice guys, who just like to sing songs about rape for some reason" right up until you encounter the weirdos who didn't realize "it was just a joke bro" or the copycats who actually are kinda rape-y in real life, etc. Some people take their "scene" VERY seriously. I think black metal is a good example of that - it's all just entertainment right up until you start setting buildings on fire and stabbing people. There are definitely some who take the aesthetic of their music to _be_ the message. I've met a number of "punks" (I don't really have the right word for it) who I wouldn't trust as far as I could throw, some metalheads, black metal bros, etc., who I wouldn't want to encounter in a back alley somewhere.
> 
> I agree, very generally speaking, with everyone who is entirely on the side of separating the artist and the art. At the same time I think we can't disregard the huge dissonance in saying "I don't condone rape and murder" etc. while listening and putting out songs all about glorifying rape and murder. At that point, it's the song itself that makes me uncomfortable, not the artist - but the art doesn't spawn from nowhere.
> 
> Granted it's two very different conversations, but I think the "good guys who make bad stuff" needs to be considered/talked about as much as the "bad guys who make good stuff". On some level, all else being equal, I think I'd prefer the idea of someone displaying or appreciating say a painting of a landscape done by Hitler, compared to putting up a painting of someone being assaulted. On a more realistic level, I'd care more about which one is just the better painting, or what the story behind the piece was, but either way.



That's a little too close to "video games cause school shootings" for me.

Those shitty people, who realistically represent a fraction of a fraction of a given scene, would be shitty people if they listened to Bach or Deicide or Simon and Garfunkel.

Shitty people get into hobbies. Hobbies don't make shitty people.

Perhaps there can be aspects of a certain scene that jive with someone predisposed to anti-social behavior, but that's correlation vs. causation, and again, how many people who have a Mayhem album actually burn down churches? How many Dying Fetus fans killed their mothers and raped thier dogs? Who actually stopped for Hammer Time?


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## cardinal (Feb 4, 2021)

My $0.02 is that once art has been put out into the world, the artist has lost control over it and its meaning and impact becomes unique to the consumer as viewed through their own paradigm. So the art can and does become separate from the artist.

The problem though is enabling a scumbag who happens to produce art that people find amazing.

But I definitely always stop for Hammer Time.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 4, 2021)

cardinal said:


> My $0.02 is that once art has been put out into the world, the artist has lost control over it and its meaning and impact becomes unique to the consumer as viewed through their own paradigm. So the art can and does become separate from the artist.
> 
> The problem though is enabling a scumbag who happens to produce art that people find amazing.
> 
> But I definitely always stop for Hammer Time.



That's a really good point.


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## NoodleFace (Feb 4, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's a little too close to "video games cause school shootings" for me.
> 
> Those shitty people, who realistically represent a fraction of a fraction of a given scene, would be shitty people if they listened to Bach or Deicide or Simon and Garfunkel.
> 
> ...


There's a bad apple in every bunch. No one thinks people that make horror movies are predisposed to murdering people, but I'm sure it happens.


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## efiltsohg (Feb 4, 2021)

I'd much rather support the Phil Anselmos and Jon Schaffers of the world than, e.g, hollywood pedophile rapists

if all somebody does is have dumb opinions, they are the same as every other artist


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## TedEH (Feb 4, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's a little too close to "video games cause school shootings" for me.





MaxOfMetal said:


> Shitty people get into hobbies. Hobbies don't make shitty people.


I didn't say anything about "cause". Obviously, no song lyrics are going to transform a well adjusted person into a murderer, but I'd be willing to believe that presenting an environment where abhorrent imagery and ideas are presented without any context or sense of irony to someone who already isn't super well adjusted could give them something to latch onto that bolsters their feelings or views.

Like it or not, art has a message to it. I think it's naive to say that art has 0 influence on people, and irresponsible to deny that art can do some harm, even if it's a small amount of harm. Given the politics of the last few years, it's pretty clear that people are malleable.

And since you brought games into it - as someone who plays/makes game for a living -> I think it's equally irresponsible for games to present abhorrent ideas without context or clear irony. You SHOULD (IMO) on some level feel uncomfortable with how much murder happens in video games. That was actually something that stood out to me about Watch_Dogs 2: your character is built up as someone who is supposed to be compassionate and moral, but mechanically the game encourages you to kill without consequence, and it's one of the few games where that dissonance is really uncomfortable to the player.

Taking that back to music, I think if a song about rape is presented as "yeah, this is explicit, you're supposed to be uncomfortable with it" is very different than a song about rape presented as "lol rape, I bet your mom is going to hate this album, say hi to her for me". I keep coming back to the Cannibal Corpse example 'cause they're the only band whose lyrics I know are like that, since it's not something I look for in music. Does their music/aesthetic present as ironic? Are you _supposed_ to feel uncomfortable reading the lyrics? Legitimate question - I don't follow them enough to know how they really present it. As a casual listener, I just see the "lol rape" part.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying all art should be rainbows and happiness - people should be free to create whatever they want, generally speaking - I just think it's naive to think that people can't be affected by art in negative ways. I fully support people making fvcked up stuff (that doesn't directly or intentionally harm anyone). But I also support criticizing and acknowledging that output for what it is, what it does, its place in the world, its different interpretations and meanings, etc - including acknowledging and potentially being uncomfortable with how fvcked up it might be.


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## gunch (Feb 4, 2021)

I think CC and the pat O’Brien freak out are outliers but I do agree that the potential is there and some introspection is necessary sometimes for the more gross imageried extreme music.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

Cannibal Corpse write what's essentially horror movies in music form. Nobody is listening to them and goes "Yeah! I wanna be a zombie that eats people!"

You'd have to be a loon to listen to death metal and think acting it out makes sense.


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## gunch (Feb 4, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Cannibal Corpse write what's essentially horror movies in music form. Nobody is listening to them and goes "Yeah! I wanna be a zombie that eats people!"
> 
> You'd have to be a loon to listen to death metal and think acting it out makes sense.



I’m thinking more like a band like Inveracity


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## Rosal76 (Feb 4, 2021)

sleewell said:


> I'm sure there are lots of examples of people who might be complete dirtbags in real life who make music you would otherwise dig. Are you able to appreciate the music or is knowing it a deal breaker for you? Honestly I'm not sure where I land on this...



Well, ignoring and not purchasing albums from Malevolent Creation wasn't a huge deal for me after I found out how some of the members were in the late 1990's. I enjoyed their first 2 albums but didn't really care much about anything after that. However, Rob Barrett, who's in Cannibal corpse used to be in Malevolent Creation and according to M.C. guitarist, Phil Fasciana, Rob shared some of those "views" that the other members have when Rob was still with them. Going to your question, I don't support what Rob did in a late 1990's story Phil said in a heavy metal magazine but I actually like quite a number of songs Rob wrote for Cannibal, so... To be honest, now, I think that was a just a one time thing and Rob hasn't done anything since to piss people off so it's easier for me enjoy what songs he writes for Cannibal.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

Rosal76 said:


> Well, ignoring and not purchasing albums from Malevolent Creation wasn't a huge deal for me after I found out how some of the members were in the late 1990's. I enjoyed their first 2 albums but didn't really care much about anything after that. However, Rob Barrett, who's in Cannibal corpse used to be in Malevolent Creation and according to M.C. guitarist, Phil Fasciana, Rob shared some of those, "views". Going to your question, I don't support what Rob did in a late 1990's story Phil said in a magazine but I actually like quite a number of songs Rob wrote for Cannibal so... To be honest, now, I think that was a just a one time thing and Rob hasn't done anything since to piss people off so it's easier for me enjoy what songs he writes for Cannibal.


What did Rob do, exactly?


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## Rosal76 (Feb 4, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> What did Rob do, exactly?



According to M.C. guitarist, Phil Fasciana, in a interview he gave to Metal Maniacs magazine, Rob used to wear a KKK shirt. He (Phil) said they were on tour in Europe and M.C. bassist, Jason Blachowicz, comes out on stage wearing a KKK shirt. Fans were pissed and throwing beer bottles at them and whatnot. With Rob, according to Phil, he stated that Rob also used to wear a KKK shirt (I'm not sure at that same show) but no longer wore it because that didn't really help the band in any way. Jason is a known racist. You just have to read what he says in interviews. Racist people will try to recruit other people and I guess he recruited Rob into wearing a KKK shirt, too. I wasn't at that Europe show when Jason wore his KKK shirt but a heavy metal fan on another forum claimed he was there. He was like, "yeah man, Malevolent Creation comes out on stage and their bass player is wearing a KKK shirt!!! So I guess that story was true. At that time, I didn't care much about Malevolent anymore and what they did. But then, Rob quit Malevolent and rejoined Cannibal. In general, I wouldn't want to support a band who had racist members but I love Cannibal. Again, I think it was just a one time thing with Rob but who really knows.


----------



## TedEH (Feb 4, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You'd have to be a loon to listen to death metal and think acting it out makes sense.


Of course. Some people are pretty loony though.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

Meh. Rob has managed to not be an ass about it, if in fact he is a racist.
That's about all you can ask of a person


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Of course. Some people are pretty loony though.


That's not the music's fault. That's the individual


----------



## TedEH (Feb 4, 2021)

I didn't mean to imply otherwise.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I didn't mean to imply otherwise.


I'm just saying in general. He'll even the musicians who make the songs turn out to be loons.

I guess the moral of the story is everyone is bat shit insane


----------



## NotDonVito (Feb 4, 2021)

I have to be honest, the MM stuff just makes his music more real in a sense. The guy's not larping when it comes to being a weirdo. Like when I was younger and thought Varg was this scary motherfucker, then he got out of prison and was just a chubby farmer who posts on /pol/. Ruined everything.

The concept of being a rockstar now is to basically be a church choir boy posting boring playthrough videos on instagram. And people wonder why it's not a dominant genre anymore.

The point is, shitty people are interesting.


----------



## odibrom (Feb 4, 2021)

NotDonVito said:


> (...)
> 
> The point is, shitty people are interesting.



Since everyone has their one shit days, some more than others (either in days' number or the shit amount), everyone is interesting to some degree...


----------



## BlackMastodon (Feb 4, 2021)

Manurack said:


> Have you been Following Marilyn Manson's shit on FB and metal/rock music pages? Apparently he's an abusive asshole, but *makes good music.*


That's arguable.


Manurack said:


> The same thing happened a few years ago with Tim Lambesis of As I Lay Dying when he tried to have his estranged wife assassinated by a hitman.
> 
> Good music will and always be good music... But some people become monsters.
> 
> One of my favorite examples of this is Robb Flynn with Machine Head - The Blackening is a thrash metal masterpiece. But Flynn became so controlling and shit that bassist Adam Duce left. Then a couple years later, Phil Demmel and Dave McClain left.


I feel like this comparison is apples and oranges. Robb Flynn is a primadonna and was too controlling with his band. He isn't a racist insurrectionist, sexual abuser, rapist, or pedophile like some of the other examples. 

On topic, I found out the other day that Aeriel Pink went to the US capitol on Jan. 6, but claims he wasn't part of the mob storming the capitol and was there to show support to the former president. It doesn't make him human garbage but if he believes the lies that Trump was selling since losing the election then it does make it hard for me to like his music, even if I ignore the misogynist comments he's made in the past.

Similarly, I can't listen to All That Remains anymore after finding out how much of a tool Phil Labonte is. All I can think about is how cringey he is in a "#youmad" muscle shirt with a tacticool rifle on it.


----------



## Demiurge (Feb 4, 2021)

NotDonVito said:


> I have to be honest, the MM stuff just makes his music more real in a sense. The guy's not larping when it comes to being a weirdo. Like when I was younger and thought Varg was this scary motherfucker, then he got out of prison and was just a chubby farmer who posts on /pol/. Ruined everything.
> 
> The concept of being a rockstar now is to basically be a church choir boy posting boring playthrough videos on instagram. And people wonder why it's not a dominant genre anymore.



Maybe there is a relationship between rock music's waning popularity and its lack of subversiveness. Maybe it needs fewer choir boys. BUT I don't really think that shit like Manson burnishing his 20-year-long Act 2 of Musician Biopic is really that secret sauce to get things back on track.


----------



## Manurack (Feb 4, 2021)

BlackMastodon said:


> That's arguable.
> 
> I feel like this comparison is apples and oranges. Robb Flynn is a primadonna and was too controlling with his band. He isn't a racist insurrectionist, sexual abuser, rapist, or pedophile like some of the other examples.
> 
> ...



Good point. I'm surprised you didn't mention Jon Shaffer of Iced Earth when he was part of the Capitol storming. There is only one Iced Earth song I like called Brothers, because my best friend in Castlegar has become a brother to me and it's our jam. The rest of that album is okay too. But like I said, I'll still listen to good music if I like it, regardless of what the musicians have done.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

I'm a diehard MM fanboi, but an abusive relationship he had at the height of his drug problems isn't exactly making rock dangerous. He lived a life of unmoderated excess and he's paying for it


----------



## Forkface (Feb 4, 2021)

I guess for me it depends on what/why is the artist being "judged".

Kanye West being a narcissistic egomaniac lunatic? fine, His music is awesome enough that I don't care that he's that. 
Ian Watkins from Lostprophets sexually assaulting children? fuck that noise I hope he rots in jail forever. I can't even _think_ about listening to lostprophets without getting nauseous.


----------



## coreysMonster (Feb 4, 2021)

I'm usually fine up to a certain point. I can't listen to certain Pantera songs anymore the same way I used to, because the meaning has changed knowing what I know now about Phil. I can still listen to Cemetary Gates no problem, but there's other stuff where it's just clear what part of his soul the lyrics were coming from and it ain't a good part, and I can't listen to it.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

Let's spice it up a bit.

Some people on this forum are terrible people and are probably some of your favs. Let that sink in


----------



## Dayn (Feb 4, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> Maybe there is a relationship between rock music's waning popularity and its lack of subversiveness. Maybe it needs fewer choir boys. BUT I don't really think that shit like Manson burnishing his 20-year-long Act 2 of Musician Biopic is really that secret sauce to get things back on track.


Personally, when I want to subvert the mainstream and offend people, I play easy-listening muzak. Really quiet, too.


----------



## mmr007 (Feb 4, 2021)

I am being sincere when I ask...but what was racist in Pantera’s music? I know that a few years back Phil threw up a nazi salute at dimebash but now it seems there is revisiting on racism in the earlier songs. I’ll admit I dont really follow lyrics closely and I’m also not exactly the biggest Pantera fan but I dont know where the racism is in their songs


----------



## TedEH (Feb 4, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Some people on this forum are terrible people


I think the forum software itself knows... it keeps telling me something about my IP being suspicious.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I think the forum software itself knows... it keeps telling me something about my IP being suspicious.


SAME! I keep getting 401 blocked


----------



## Spicypickles (Feb 5, 2021)

> Can you separate the music from the person?



Yes, easily. If I enjoy it, I enjoy it.


----------



## ArtDecade (Feb 5, 2021)

Manson. Man, son. Dude is living out the character he created and then some.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Feb 5, 2021)

NotDonVito said:


> The point is, shitty people are interesting.


Being a shit person doesn't make someone interesting. There's a big different between being a general asshole and an abuser/rapist/murderer.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 5, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Being a shit person doesn't make someone interesting.



To immature edgelords it does.


----------



## sonoftheoldnorth (Feb 5, 2021)

I couldn't give a monkeys about Varg killing a man, Phil white power Anselmo, any black rappers or wigger rappers spouting lyrics and images I personally don't approve of, or blowing people away (I just like the music and energy) the Tim guy trying to whack his wife, Jon from Iced Earth... well on that one, actually... even though 99% of internet twiners were disgusted and outraged and flat out called him DUMB for whatever the did, at least he's ALWAYS openly presented his entire persona as that kind of man, made music and lyrics etc and that's exactly what he did, actions matching his rhetoric. I can't understand anyone who doesn't think that's a positive trait, regardless of political opinion being different. Fyi Glorious Burden is one of my least favourite IE albumsand I'm apolitical, before anyone gets their back up. 

Anyways, I digress. 

For me the only kind of crime that I could not separate from the artist is real depraved pedo shit, like Ian Watkins from British Band Lost Prophets. They were a real big band when I was in my late teens and sort of part of that sound track you and your friends have from that time period. I would never listen to that band again. It sucks for his band mates. God knows how disgusting that must have felt to find that shit out.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 5, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> To immature edgelords it does.



Meh..you rarely get really interesting music that makes a cultural impact without a colorful character behind it.

GG Allin was human trash but it made his music more authentic for it. I love GG Allin as a statement of rock'n'roll. Sure he was a gutter turd but I don't think he would have had the same cultural impact if he wasn't.

Rock has always had it's troubled people and those troubled people make great things and become part of the musical legacy. That certainly doesn't condone what they do, but I feel rock needs those people. Without it it'd be bland.

I'm a fan of performance art and the stories that make up the fabric of a genre. Even if the people are idiots and trash, it's a part of the legacy that makes the art as a whole more interesting. Again that's not condoning the shit people have done, but infamy does help a lot with a genre's image.

Black metal is legendary for the fuckhead kids who were eating each other and burning down churches.

Rock music has more than its fair share of GG Allins, Wendy O Williams types, Trent Reznors, Marilyn Mansons, Sid and Nancys, etc.


Rap is what it is because of people who actually lived the lives they rapped about. And those people are bound to run into legal troubles.


----------



## TheBlackBard (Feb 5, 2021)

Well I would love to take the moral high ground and say "fuck anyone who's ever done anything bad" but the problem is, I have an Amazon Prime account, I shop at Wal-Mart, and I still listen to a lot of bands from back in the day when it was cool and popular to fuck sometimes underage girls. There is a LOT that people have forgotten about from yesteryear, especially in regards to some of their favorite musicians from back in the day. Hell, I buy products that essentially show how complicit I am (or at the very least don't pay a second thought to) in the third world exploitation of human beings working their bodies to the bone to make the bare minimum to feed their families and often, I do this in the name of my own entertainment. Yeah, a large part of my life is sustainable by the current fashion of exploiting people in third world countries AND in the United States (Amazon, peeps) What really makes me laugh though is when people bring up Tim Lambesis for trying to have his wife killed while ignoring the fact or not ever bringing it up how Ozzy tried to literally kill Sharon HIMSELF and got closer to succeeding than Lambesis ever did.

Myself? Entertainment is entertainment. Sometimes it comes from reaaaally shitty place. Hell, one of my favorite authors is H.P. Lovecraft and you CANNOT separate his work from his beliefs, though he did a lot to lay a large part of the foundation for modern horror. It sucks, but it's the truth. Are you someone who's going to cherrypick your morals and apply it to your lifestyle and entertainment choices, or are you going to admit that you're fine with the current model? Because as shitty as some of these people are, dangling a carrot in front of people to get them to work their lives away, having very little to themselves or their families in exchange for long hours, low wages, and shitty work conditions? That's just as bad IMO.

Also, I find it quite backwards that for a society that is so bent on cancel-culture and boycotting, we tend to glamourize serial killers quite a bit. How many documentaries do we have on Ted Bundy now?


----------



## Demiurge (Feb 5, 2021)

I hope my fanbase can look past that I'm apparently using Spam Bots to register new accounts many times during the day and keep coming back.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 5, 2021)

Demiurge said:


> I hope my fanbase can look past that I'm apparently using Spam Bots to register new accounts many times during the day and keep coming back.


EXACTLY. MODS...WTF?!


----------



## coreysMonster (Feb 5, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> I am being sincere when I ask...but what was racist in Pantera’s music? I know that a few years back Phil threw up a nazi salute at dimebash but now it seems there is revisiting on racism in the earlier songs. I’ll admit I dont really follow lyrics closely and I’m also not exactly the biggest Pantera fan but I dont know where the racism is in their songs


A lot of stuff that sounds just like typical 90's tough guy speak can have a different meaning through the lens of a racist or white supremacist. I can't think of anything off the top of my head but it definitely happens a few times listening to Vulgar, or Far Beyond, that I pause and think "Hang on, what was Phil actually saying here". It may be a misinterpretation on my part, but anybody that shouts "white power" while performing a concert absolutely brings that kind of scrutiny on themselves.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Feb 5, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> GG Allin was human trash but it made his music more authentic for it. I love GG Allin as a statement of rock'n'roll. Sure he was a gutter turd but I don't think he would have had the same cultural impact if he wasn't.


GG Allin's music is fucking garbage, too. 

Everyone has there skeletons, not everyone's are the same.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 5, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> GG Allin's music is fucking garbage, too.
> 
> Everyone has there skeletons, not everyone's are the same.



Part of its charm is that it's horrible. It's him..messy, unfocused and if music had a smell his music would smell terrible.

You can't get more authentic than that and it's the reason his music has had such an impact.


----------



## rokket2005 (Feb 5, 2021)

Did no one bring up the lostprophets guy yet? He was just doing it for the mega lolz.


----------



## groverj3 (Feb 5, 2021)

It really depends on the artist and what they've done. Everything is on a case by case basis.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Feb 5, 2021)

rokket2005 said:


> Did no one bring up the lostprophets guy yet? He was just doing it for the mega lolz.



I mentioned him in page 1, and several others have as well.


----------



## USMarine75 (Feb 6, 2021)

I just cant believe someone like Marilyn Manson who seemed so nice on Family Guy had a rape room.


----------



## Wuuthrad (Feb 6, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Being a shit person doesn't make someone interesting.



GG Allin was interesting precisely because he was a “shit” person... he was literally covered in it!


----------



## Wuuthrad (Feb 6, 2021)

Of course you can separate music from the person. I think it’s almost automatic when listening to music. And you can choose whom to support by buying or not buying their art. But are that many people who make music really Artists? Doubtful...

The “music industry” doesn’t care at all, they’ll sell anything.

It’s a bit easier with music in the public domain, and perhaps less so with Artists who don’t share any personal ideologies and hide behind slogans like “music is just entertainment...”

Which brings to mind- a while back a friend told me “Sweetwater is a huge Trump supporter.” I was thinking hmm is that true? How do we really know anything about anyone for that matter?

That’s why I like Punk bands they make it real easy!


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Meh..you rarely get really interesting music that makes a cultural impact without a colorful character behind it.
> 
> GG Allin was human trash but it made his music more authentic for it. I love GG Allin as a statement of rock'n'roll. Sure he was a gutter turd but I don't think he would have had the same cultural impact if he wasn't.
> 
> ...



Eh, shitty people can make amazing, compelling, beautiful things, but innate shittiness isn't what makes them interesting, the product does.

There are plenty of poor, homeless drug addicts that shit in public. Why are they not GG Allin? 

I think that's actually separating the artist from the music, but not in a judgemental way. Saying that they are a person (good or bad) but the only reason we're talking about them is because what they created.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2021)

coreysMonster said:


> A lot of stuff that sounds just like typical 90's tough guy speak can have a different meaning through the lens of a racist or white supremacist. I can't think of anything off the top of my head but it definitely happens a few times listening to Vulgar, or Far Beyond, that I pause and think "Hang on, what was Phil actually saying here". It may be a misinterpretation on my part, but anybody that shouts "white power" while performing a concert absolutely brings that kind of scrutiny on themselves.


You guys do realize that was a joke on Phil's part right? one in very poor taste obviously. Phil's lyrics have never been about racism, other than people taking "walk on home boy" as an overt line. Look up the lyrics for No Good and Rise, he straight up condemns racism in them.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> You guys do realize that was a joke on Phil's part right? one in very poor taste obviously. Phil's lyrics have never been about racism, other than people taking "walk on home boy" as an overt line. Look up the lyrics for No Good and Rise, he straight up condemns racism in them.



So him dropping N bombs and screaming white power is all a joke? Man have I got news for the KKK...

Btw lyrical content has nothing to do with what the singer thinks.

As far as I'm concerned Phil is a drugged out piece of shit that should have his head caved in. It's a shame because Pantera was a great band and he has a great voice.


----------



## soul_lip_mike (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> If you only listened to music from pure innocent people you wouldn't have much of a selection left.
> 
> Some people are bad people and sometimes they make good music. I really like Charles Manson's music..but the dude was clearly a loon.
> 
> There also comes a lot of bullshit when celebs get found out about. Allegations, flat out lies, media hype, etc. I'm not much into getting into all that shit. Unless it's blatantly obvious, like Charles Manson or Phil Anselmo or something like that...I just shrug it off.



‘I’m out of the loop. What did Phil do to get lumped in with Charles Manson?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

soul_lip_mike said:


> ‘I’m out of the loop. What did Phil do to get lumped in with Charles Manson?



Well they're both nutjob racists who have a bunch of dumb bitch followers who somehow don't see that they're garbage.

They both have great singing voices and it's a shame they went the route they did.

You know when I had to actually think about it, it became really bizarre how much they had in common.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> So him dropping N bombs and screaming white power is all a joke? Man have I got news for the KKK...
> 
> Btw lyrical content has nothing to do with what the singer thinks.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned Phil is a drugged out piece of shit that should have his head caved in. It's a shame because Pantera was a great band and he has a great voice.


 The white power bit was apparently a joke about white wine he was drinking on stage. I don't condone it but it was ONE time and he apologized profusely for it, admitted it was in poor taste, etc. He doesn't deserve to be crucified over it ad nauseam imo.

Phil has never been even close to vocally/overtly racist like say Varg Vikernes, who is an actual white supremacist/misogynist/murdering piece of shit.

That's an interesting idea about lyrics having nothing to do with what they think. While I'd be inclined to agree with you with some people "talking the talk but not walking the walk" (see literally every gore based band ever) not believing in their lyrics, *dudes that are actual white supremacists are never going to write lyrics about racial unity or decrying white supremacy like Phil did*. Their whole schtick is based on trying to justify an asinine viewpoint laden with blatant misinformation/scapegoating and junk "science" to make themselves feel better.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> The white power bit was apparently a joke about white wine he was drinking on stage. I don't condone it but it was ONE time and he apologized profusely for it, admitted it was in poor taste, etc. He doesn't deserve to be crucified over it ad nauseam imo.
> 
> Phil has never been even close to vocally/overtly racist like say Varg Vikernes, who is an actual white supremacist/misogynist/murdering piece of shit.
> 
> That's an interesting idea about lyrics having nothing to do with what they think. While I'd be inclined to agree with you with some people "talking the talk but not walking the walk" (see literally every gore based band ever) not believing in their lyrics, *dudes that are actual white supremacists are never going to write lyrics about racial unity or decrying white supremacy like Phil did*. Their whole schtick is based on trying to justify an asinine viewpoint laden with blatant misinformation/scapegoating and junk "science" to make themselves feel better.


So direct reports of him dropping n bombs to people was a joke too?

Yeah..it's a no from me dawg


----------



## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> So him dropping N bombs and screaming white power is all a joke? Man have I got news for the KKK...
> 
> Btw lyrical content has nothing to do with what the singer thinks.
> 
> As far as I'm concerned Phil is a drugged out piece of shit that should have his head caved in. It's a shame because Pantera was a great band and he has a great voice.



I mean, honestly and truly, I think I'd be a bit more worried about the mindset of someone who so readily is frothing at the mouth at the idea of someone having their heads caved in over a guy who said something ignorant on stage and then tried to make amends, meaningfully or not. Speaking of which, there was a thread on Reddit yesterday:

"We as a culture are more forgiving towards thieves, murderers and rapists then we are towards people who make off color comments or have controversial views."

https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueOffMyChest/comments/ldj2d2/we_as_a_culture_are_more_forgiving_towards/

Pretty interesting read.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> I mean, honestly and truly, I think I'd be a bit more worried about the mindset of someone who so readily is frothing at the mouth at the idea of someone having their heads caved in over a guy who said something ignorant on stage and then tried to make amends, meaningfully or not. Speaking of which, there was a thread on Reddit yesterday:
> 
> "We as a culture are more forgiving towards thieves, murderers and rapists then we are towards people who make off color comments or have controversial views."
> 
> ...


 The dude has a long standing history of saying racist shit. You don't get to say it, give a half assed apology and think everything is fine.

Not only that but he's often said shit that's indicative of the behavior of someone who doesn't think first. You'd think after that whole Dime situation he'd have learned his lesson. Apparently not.

If you think me thinking he needs a kick to his ass for being an idiot is "frothing at the mouth" so be it...but let's not sit here and bend over backwards making excuses for shit people


----------



## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The dude has a long standing history of saying racist shit. You don't get to say it, give a half assed apology and think everything is fine.
> 
> Not only that but he's often said shit that's indicative of the behavior of someone who doesn't think first. You'd think after that whole Dime situation he'd have learned his lesson. Apparently not.
> 
> If you think me thinking he needs a kick to his ass for being an idiot is "frothing at the mouth" so be it...but let's not sit here and bend over backwards making excuses for shit people




Thing is, if you'd said a "kick in the ass" I would have been right behind you to give him one myself, but you were wanting the dude Negan'd. Quite a difference. Or maybe not, maybe kicks in the asses have become far more brutal these days, perhaps edging on the cusp of sodomy even, I don't know.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Thing is, if you'd said a "kick in the ass" I would have been right behind you to give him one myself, but you were wanting the dude Negan'd. Quite a difference. Or maybe not, maybe kicks in the asses have become far more brutal these days, perhaps edging on the cusp of sodomy even, I don't know.



Meh, I hate cowardly racists especially when they try to push some tough guy image so I'd be fine with either outcome for him.

He might dig the sodomy, being an undercover closet case and all, so we'll skip that


----------



## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Meh, I hate cowardly racists especially when they try to push some tough guy image so I'd be fine with either outcome for him.
> 
> He might dig the sodomy, being an undercover closet case and all, so we'll skip that




Well if getting Negan'd is your solution to that sort of thing, great, but between you AND the racist POS, we're trying to have a civilization here.

Good news is, if you ever for some reason actually get to Negan him, BUT you make great art, I'll buy it, regardless.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Well if getting Negan'd is your solution to that sort of thing, great, but between you AND the racist POS, we're trying to have a civilization here.
> 
> Good news is, if you ever for some reason actually get to Negan him, BUT you make great art, I'll buy it, regardless.


 
I'll make it part of my music video


----------



## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'll make it part of my music video



Well you won't be hurting for views, that's for goddamn sure.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Well you won't be hurting for views, that's for goddamn sure.


It'd be great for my career


----------



## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

So N word = unforgivable

Serious crimes that enhance the mystique of performance artist = somewhat acceptable/expected?

Not quite sure if Phil and MM and the likes (if proven true) can be put in the same category.

And the black metal crimes. For fucks sake, some of those murders were extremely homophobic.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> So N word = unforgivable
> 
> Serious crimes that enhance the mystique of performance artist = somewhat acceptable/expected?
> 
> ...


Nope. A piece of shit is a piece of shit.

Some peices of shit manage to get lucky enough for it to work for them image wise...but they are still pieces of shit


----------



## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Nope. A piece of shit is a piece of shit.
> 
> Some peices of shit manage to get lucky enough for it to work for them image wise...but they are still pieces of shit



It just seems that the vitriol on show towards some artists is far greater than that showed towards some individuals who have committed some really horrific crimes.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> It just seems that the vitriol on show towards some artists is far greater than that showed towards some individuals who have committed some really horrific crimes.


Not really.
Gaahl and Phil Anselmo are my personal pet peeves as I hate phony cowards.

But that doesn't mean that people who have done worse somehow get a free pass. If you're gonna like an artist who's a shit human being, at least acknowledge they're shit instead of trying to make excuses for it


----------



## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Not really.
> Gaahl and Phil Anselmo are my personal pet peeves as I hate phony cowards.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that people who have done worse somehow get a free pass. If you're gonna like an artist who's a shit human being, at least acknowledge they're shit instead of trying to make excuses for it



I could never defend MM's many, many crimes against music.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> I could never defend MM's many, many crimes against music.


I'm a diehard Manson fan and he's one of the biggest reasons I do music. 

That being said he's a piece of shit drug addict who let the life of rock excess get the best of him. I don't feel sorry for him regarding what's happening to him now. He brought it on himself.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> I mean, honestly and truly, I think I'd be a bit more worried about the mindset of someone who so readily is frothing at the mouth at the idea of someone having their heads caved in over a guy who said something ignorant on stage and then tried to make amends, meaningfully or not. Speaking of which, there was a thread on Reddit yesterday:
> 
> "We as a culture are more forgiving towards thieves, murderers and rapists then we are towards people who make off color comments or have controversial views."
> 
> ...



The thing is, being racist/sexist/whatever-ist is a financial and administrative nightmare. 

Giant Corporation A doesn't care what thier employees think, but if they have shitty views towards anyone based around protected classes they open themselves up to discrimination and hostile work environment litigation.

People are absolutely terrible at leaving thier biases out of thier work and interpersonal relationships, so it's not like it's exclusive to thought, in manifests IRL.


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm a diehard Manson fan and he's one of the biggest reasons I do music.
> 
> That being said he's a piece of shit drug addict who let the life of rock excess get the best of him. I don't feel sorry for him regarding what's happening to him now. He brought it on himself.



Ah yes, the victim of circumstances. No head caving for Mr Warner.


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## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The thing is, being racist/sexist/whatever-ist is a financial and administrative nightmare.
> 
> Giant Corporation A doesn't care what thier employees think, but if they have shitty views towards anyone based around protected classes they open themselves up to discrimination and hostile work environment litigation.
> 
> People are absolutely terrible at leaving thier biases out of thier work and interpersonal relationships, so it's not like it's exclusive to thought, in manifests IRL.



I absolutely understand it from a company's point of view, but what I mean is more along the lines of an individual. Hell, people exist that love Tyson and would absolutely crucify someone if they called him the "n" word. Calling him that isn't right, nor is calling ANY person that word right, but I think it says a lot about people when we're more willing to forgive a rapist than someone like Phil Anselmo. They're both garbage sure, but I believe there are tiers to garbage. That said, I also believe in rehabilitation and that a person CAN change into not being total garbage.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> Ah yes, the victim of circumstances. No head caving for Mr Warner.


Care to explain how he's some sort of victim?


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> Ah yes, the victim of circumstances. No head caving for Mr Warner.





DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Care to explain how he's some sort of victim?



The condemnation with the caviat.

"That being said he's a piece of shit drug addict who let the life of rock excess get the best of him." 

"He brought it upon himself."

He's not the victim in the allegations, he's the alleged abuser. That first sentence is the kind of shit his defence lawyer can use in court if it gets that far.

It's not far off the comments about the victims saying they knew what they were getting into.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> I absolutely understand it from a company's point of view, but what I mean is more along the lines of an individual. Hell, people exist that love Tyson and would absolutely crucify someone if they called him the "n" word. Calling him that isn't right, nor is calling ANY person that word right, but I think it says a lot about people when we're more willing to forgive a rapist than someone like Phil Anselmo. They're both garbage sure, but I believe there are tiers to garbage. That said, I also believe in rehabilitation and that a person CAN change into not being total garbage.



I don't think anyone here is forgiving Mike Tyson, while not doing the same for Phil Anselmo. 

Ignorance plays a part. I'd be willing to bet that just about anyone under 40 just remembers Tyson as the dude with the tiger in The Hangover.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> The condemnation with the caviat.
> 
> "That being said he's a piece of shit drug addict who let the life of rock excess get the best of him."
> 
> ...



You're trying way too hard to push some silly narrative of people speaking up for bad people. 

No one is defending him. I clearly stated he brought this all on himself. He's clung to the idea of being this big bad Rockstar and this is where he's ended up. Nowhere in that is he a victim. His choices were all his, and he made the wrong ones.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 6, 2021)

Forkface said:


> I guess for me it depends on what/why is the artist being "judged".
> 
> Kanye West being a narcissistic egomaniac lunatic? fine, His music is awesome enough that I don't care that he's that.
> Ian Watkins from Lostprophets sexually assaulting children? fuck that noise I hope he rots in jail forever. I can't even _think_ about listening to lostprophets without getting nauseous.



I think a lot of people would agree at drawing a clear line here. Being a dope or asshole can be excused but being a monster is just inexcusable and completely taints everything that person touched.


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## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think anyone here is forgiving Mike Tyson, while not doing the same for Phil Anselmo.
> 
> Ignorance plays a part. I'd be willing to bet that just about anyone under 40 just remembers Tyson as the dude with the tiger in The Hangover.




I should have made my post more clear, I didn't mean to insinuate it was people here that was doing it. I spend a lot of time on Twitter, and it just seems like certain people with a dark past either have it forgotten or "whatever the fuck, oh well" while the newest person to piss someone off is getting a train run on them, so to speak.


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

Choice of language is very important and reading through your posts I find that the words used to describe one person's crimes comparred to another are quite intriguing.

As mentioned in a few posts above, Tyson is an individual who has committed a horrific crime and faced far less condemnation than many have for lesser crimes. And many are more than happy to mitigate what he did back the and blame it on his lifestyle and history. 

There is no narrative, the posts are all there for everyone to read and express their opinions as they see fit. I am not going to say that anyone should change their views and be more selective in how they express them. I doubt I am the only person who would interpret them in the same way, nor would I be the only person to challenge and discuss it.


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

Onto the main topic, I do not believe that his or anyone's crimes or bad character should feel any sort of guilt for enjoying the music.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

SamSam said:


> Choice of language is very important and reading through your posts I find that the words used to describe one person's crimes comparred to another are quite intriguing.
> 
> As mentioned in a few posts above, Tyson is an individual who has committed a horrific crime and faced far less condemnation than many have for lesser crimes. And many are more than happy to mitigate what he did back the and blame it on his lifestyle and history.
> 
> There is no narrative, the posts are all there for everyone to read and express their opinions as they see fit. I am not going to say that anyone should change their views and be more selective in how they express them. I doubt I am the only person who would interpret them in the same way, nor would I be the only person to challenge and discuss it.


 It's really simple...shitty people shouldn't get a free pass just because you like what they do.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> I should have made my post more clear, I didn't mean to insinuate it was people here that was doing it. I spend a lot of time on Twitter, and it just seems like certain people with a dark past either have it forgotten or "whatever the fuck, oh well" while the newest person to piss someone off is getting a train run on them, so to speak.



Time does truly heal most wounds it seems. 

I'd never say that everyone is treated the same, but again, I'm not sure how much everyone knows of past incidents, or what kind of overlap there is between folks who are aware of "person a" and "person b".


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Time does truly heal most wounds it seems.
> 
> I'd never say that everyone is treated the same, but again, I'm not sure how much everyone knows of past incidents, or what kind of overlap there is between folks who are aware of "person a" and "person b".



From what I gather, Tyson's tried really hard to be a better person. He admits to the shit he did and even tries to educate people on not being how he used to be. 

Granted I have no clue if it's legit but it seems like it is. If so good for him.


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## TheBlackBard (Feb 6, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> From what I gather, Tyson's tried really hard to be a better person. He admits to the shit he did and even tries to educate people on not being how he used to be.
> 
> Granted I have no clue if it's legit but it seems like it is. If so good for him.




Thing is, Tim Lambesis has too. Between donating to charities for domestic abuse and such and taking every bit of blame he possibly can, the only difference between the two at this point is simply time, so maybe @MaxOfMetal has a point about time healing wounds.


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

I never knew that people required education to learn that rape is bad.

It's not a simple as shitty behaviour deserves to be punished. Because the degree of behaviour should really be met with the right punishment. It rarely is though.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

TheBlackBard said:


> Thing is, Tim Lambesis has too. Between donating to charities for domestic abuse and such and taking every bit of blame he possibly can, the only difference between the two at this point is simply time, so maybe @MaxOfMetal has a point about time healing wounds.


Possibly. 

My only thing is Tyson was a nutjob who went unchecked and was gassed up to be that way for the image.

That other dude plotted out killing his wife. It wasn't a spur of the moment, in the heat of emotion type thing. He was methodical.

He COULD be truly reformed and whatnot, who knows? But his wrongdoing speaks more to being sneaky and manipulative


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

That is a very simplistic way of assessing these crimes.


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## mmr007 (Feb 6, 2021)

The one thing about ALL of these people we love/hate/worship whatever because they are athletes, musicians etc....they are all given the privilege of remaining in a state of arrested development in a male dominated world. They have have hookers brought to them in one limo and all the coke and smack they could want ubered in an another limo and they never (almost never) deal with what it is like to be a grown up and have grown up thoughts and realize the world doesn't revolve around them (which lets face it if you're in an arena of 20,000 plus fans screaming your name it feels like the world does revolve around you). It is quite possible to be a 30 year old man with a sense of consequences afforded an 8 year old based on a life style handed to them because they are "stars". Not excusing them but just like we shudder at other cultures that may practice cannibalism (not like Armie Hammer but for real) or marry off children in arranged marriages at age 9 (shocking to us...normal to them)....these rockstars have been allowed to remain in a world totally separate from what we deal with....consequences for debauchery.

I think it is genuinely possible that someone could finally "grow up" and mature in their 40's or 50's because they never had to before that and so it is legit and if we decide to forgive them because time has healed that wound then so be it.


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## SamSam (Feb 6, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> The one thing about ALL of these people we love/hate/worship whatever because they are athletes, musicians etc....they are all given the privilege of remaining in a state of arrested development in a male dominated world. They have have hookers brought to them in one limo and all the coke and smack they could want ubered in an another limo and they never (almost never) deal with what it is like to be a grown up and have grown up thoughts and realize the world doesn't revolve around them (which lets face it if you're in an arena of 20,000 plus fans screaming your name it feels like the world does revolve around you). It is quite possible to be a 30 year old man with a sense of consequences afforded an 8 year old based on a life style handed to them because they are "stars". Not excusing them but just like we shudder at other cultures that may practice cannibalism (not like Armie Hammer but for real) or marry off children in arranged marriages at age 9 (shocking to us...normal to them)....these rockstars have been allowed to remain in a world totally separate from what we deal with....consequences for debauchery.
> 
> I think it is genuinely possible that someone could finally "grow up" and mature in their 40's or 50's because they never had to before that and so it is legit and if we decide to forgive them because time has healed that wound then so be it.



Unless they were 8 years old when they attained this status I think it might be hard to justify a regression in understanding consequences, as opposed to simply the thought that they are powerful and influential and that exempts them from the co sequences of their actions.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 6, 2021)

mmr007 said:


> The one thing about ALL of these people we love/hate/worship whatever because they are athletes, musicians etc....they are all given the privilege of remaining in a state of arrested development in a male dominated world. They have have hookers brought to them in one limo and all the coke and smack they could want ubered in an another limo and they never (almost never) deal with what it is like to be a grown up and have grown up thoughts and realize the world doesn't revolve around them (which lets face it if you're in an arena of 20,000 plus fans screaming your name it feels like the world does revolve around you). It is quite possible to be a 30 year old man with a sense of consequences afforded an 8 year old based on a life style handed to them because they are "stars". Not excusing them but just like we shudder at other cultures that may practice cannibalism (not like Armie Hammer but for real) or marry off children in arranged marriages at age 9 (shocking to us...normal to them)....these rockstars have been allowed to remain in a world totally separate from what we deal with....consequences for debauchery.
> 
> I think it is genuinely possible that someone could finally "grow up" and mature in their 40's or 50's because they never had to before that and so it is legit and if we decide to forgive them because time has healed that wound then so be it.



Yeah I do think there is something to the fact that your reality changes with celeb status. It can be a completely different world and really fuck with a person's ability to stay grounded. Granted that doesn't excuse horrible behavior but for someone already ill-inclined for whatever reason (mental illness, personal issues, or just straight up being a bad person) I'm sure it's a perfect storm for bad shit to go down.


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## vilk (Feb 6, 2021)

I like Drudkh, but I'm pretty sure they don't like me! Lol

The real test is: can you jam to songs about poop?


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## coreysMonster (Feb 6, 2021)

KnightBrolaire said:


> You guys do realize that was a joke on Phil's part right?


I have never once in my life met a person who jokingly did the Nazi salute and yelled White Power in public, much less a man in his mid-40s.



KnightBrolaire said:


> Look up the lyrics for No Good and Rise, he straight up condemns racism in them.


Tom Araya wrote "God Hates us All" and that has fuck all to do with his real beliefs, not to mention there's plenty of time between 1992 and 2016 for a guy to develop shit views.


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## efiltsohg (Feb 6, 2021)

threads like this always bring the somethingsensitive redditors out of the woodworks


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## Dayn (Feb 6, 2021)

coreysMonster said:


> I have never once in my life met a person who jokingly did the Nazi salute and yelled White Power in public, much less a man in his mid-40s.


I guess it's the Roseanne defence. I must admit that I have never heard of white supremacy as a side-effect of alcohol. Can anyone confirm accidentally advocating genocide after a few brews, or praising systemic racial oppression when you hit the cider a bit hard? I can see the word play in relation to wine, but even as someone without a shred of racism in my history it's not a joke I'd make. If it's meant to be a joke, who was meant to find it funny? Do they often hang around people where that's a frequent topic of humour? Hmm. It's really a mystery, I guess we'll never know where they stand.


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## Louis Cypher (Feb 7, 2021)

Thinking about this more and reading all the comments so far think for me you got 3 broad categories for this subject:
- The reformed or repeat offending idiot
- The racist, homophobic, islamaphobic, antisemitic or hate preacher etc
- Those actually found guilty of a criminal offence

For me the 1st category examples would be Robb Flynn (repeat offending twat) everyone knows why or Steve Vai (reformed idiot) even by his own admission he was an VERY arrogant arse back in the day. Or the numerous ones posing with the Rebel flag guitars or whatever (Zakk Wylde or Dime)
It's the 2nd two categories that pose the problem for me and are the musicians that need to be focused on for this question. I'm not 100% sure where Phil Anselmo fits as I don't know that much about his racism other than whats been discussed here tbh. But I'm personally uncomfortable with it and tho I haven't listened to Pantera or Down for ages I'm in no rush to going fwd now. Bands or acts actively promoting hate I'm gonna pass on any of their music, but rightly or wrongly everyone deserves a 2nd chance so for example I give Axl and GnR time and money even tho their past inc the song One in a Million. He has expressed sincere regret and that song is no longer available anywhere to my knowledge. The 3rd one, anyone guilty of an intentionally crime (Phil Spectre, Varg, R Kelly, Chris Brown, Ian Watkins or Manson allegedly) fcuk them no 2nd chances I got nothing for them, time or money


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## mmr007 (Feb 7, 2021)

SamSam said:


> Unless they were 8 years old when they attained this status I think it might be hard to justify a regression in understanding consequences, as opposed to simply the thought that they are powerful and influential and that exempts them from the co sequences of their actions.


That assumes that all "adults" were of adult mentality and maturity to begin with. They are not. At 18, guys I grew up with were in a punk band and thought it was funny to get stoned and smoke banana peels and stick foreign objects up the ass of cats that they found in the neighborhood. I never associated with them after knowing that and 3 of the 5 are dead now....one of AIDS one of a motorcycle crash and another from OD. They NEVER grew up.
There are people who at age 12 are more mature than people at age 50...both financially and whatnot. Not a lot of investment banker/family men sing in metal bands or box or play football. Not saying there aren't any, but the pickin's are more slim.
And to those that talk about Phil giving a nazi salute and saying white power, that only seems to reinfornce my point. Is Phil racist? I don't know but only an immature idiot would think that's ok to say to crowd and that everyone would either A)agree with the sentiment or B)think it is just as funny now for a follow up jump off the roof into the pool dude.

If there is ANY doubt about the mental maturity aspect, and you haven't done so already, I encourage everyone to watch the documentary (or read the case history) of one former New England's Patriot named Aaron Hernandez. Going to college and getting millions of dollars and everything that went with fame and he was as mature as 10 year old boy he once was and never was able to grow. He got facial hair and aged physically...never mentally. Consequences are not something he understood at all.


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## GunpointMetal (Feb 8, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Part of its charm is that it's horrible. It's him..messy, unfocused and if music had a smell his music would smell terrible.
> 
> You can't get more authentic than that and it's the reason his music has had such an impact.


Never in the history of ever have I heard a person even mention GG Allin's music when talking about him other than that he made it. Everyone knows him for being a disgusting piece of shit, and that's about it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 8, 2021)

GunpointMetal said:


> Never in the history of ever have I heard a person even mention GG Allin's music when talking about him other than that he made it. Everyone knows him for being a disgusting piece of shit, and that's about it.



I like his music. It suits him.


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## Esp Griffyn (Feb 8, 2021)

Wait, what did Steve Vai do?


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