# Alternate/economy picking



## distressed_romeo (Feb 21, 2006)

Cliche guitar forum question, but we haven't had it in a while, so lets have a poll!

Do you tend to favour alternate or economy picking?

Me, I kinda do both. I practice them both in isolation, but when it comes to improvising I just let my hands find the easiest way of doing it, and hope that all the practice is well-ingrained enough to stop me from doing anything totally retarded. I use a lot of legato as well, which confuses things further. It all really depends on the phrasing I want.


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## maskofduality (Feb 21, 2006)

the only one i don't do is all downstrokes... so i guess that counts for all of the above -1?


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## D-EJ915 (Feb 21, 2006)

*cough* what is economy picking? You mean with fingers & stuff?


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 21, 2006)

It just means you move the pick straight to the next string, so you never do any cross-picking. If you were to play a three note per string pattern you'd pick it like this...DUDDUD etc. Like a cross between alternate and sweep picking. That's the best way I can explain it.


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## Drew (Feb 21, 2006)

LEgato - Satriani rules. 

When I pick, though, straight alternate. It's easier to hold a rhythmic groove, I've noticed.


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## ty2k (Feb 21, 2006)

yeah,i guess alternate picking.sadly,still not all that great at it.


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## Dormant (Feb 21, 2006)

I have a Frank Gambale instructional DVD and the economy picking just hurts my head. I don't think it helps that he wears the most garish clothes and has the scariest chest wig I have ever seen. 

It's this DVD: 





To stop the confusion he says that you should just do economy, legato and tapping all at the same time and forget everything else ...


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## bostjan (Feb 21, 2006)

I doubt anyone forgets the point in alternate picking, but my guitar teacher was very serious about alternate-picking. The idea was to keep your accents even and thus determine the time signature. so eighth notes in 4/4 were *D*UDUDUDU*D*UDUDUDU etc. Sixteenth notes *D*UDU_D_UDU_D_UDU_D_UDU etc.

Basically beat one is heaviest downstroke, three can be accented a little more than two and four, the "and's" are light, but the ee/ah beats (sixteenths) are lighter. Anything else is syncopation.

I don't feel quite as strongly as he did, but I make sure my students understand this theory when they try to tackle sixteenth note.


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## zimbloth (Feb 22, 2006)

Economy picking sounds lame as hell, I can't imagine ever trying that. Maybe I'm missing something. Everything else I like (legato, alt, down strokes), its all about what the part calls for I guess.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 22, 2006)

zimbloth said:


> Economy picking sounds lame as hell, I can't imagine ever trying that. Maybe I'm missing something. Everything else I like (legato, alt, down strokes), its all about what the part calls for I guess.



Not true. Check out Jeff Loomis, Frank Gambale, Eric Johnson, Shaun Baxter, George Bellas, George Lynch or Kiko Loureiro. You really need to spend time developing good articulation with it, but it really does open up a lot of doors.
It happenned totally naturally for me, after about 8 years of alternate picking. Having both has been a real blessing for me.


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## Chris D (Feb 22, 2006)

distressed_romeo said:


> Me, I kinda do both. I practice them both in isolation, but when it comes to improvising I just let my hands find the easiest way of doing it, and hope that all the practice is well-ingrained enough to stop me from doing anything totally retarded. I use a lot of legato as well, which confuses things further. It all really depends on the phrasing I want.


+1

I've found that, when improvising, depending on what phrasing/accents I feel like I want, my pick goes to autopilot.
I guess it's how muscle-memory comes into play, & how you pre-visualize (audiolize?) what you want to hear.
ie: if you're gonna do a phrase with a pinch-harmonic in it you'll automatically wind up doing a downstroke for that note.

As for economy-picking being lame... wtf??? Zimbloth, just practice some 3-note-per-string ascending & descending runs for a while, you'll soon find it's a useful thing.

Mind you I used to worry about the whole "economy of motion" thing... until I saw that vid of Eric Johnson playing Cliffs of Dover... his pinky flails around even more than mine!!!


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## The Dark Wolf (Feb 22, 2006)

I'm with Beelze. Whatever comes naturally, so I do a sorta of hybrid approach. I tend to alernate pick more when ascending, but economy pick more when descending, but that's just tendencies, not rules I try to implement. Like Beelze says, it's all muscle memory at this point.


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## Drew (Feb 22, 2006)

Beelzebloke said:


> Zimbloth, just practice some 3-note-per-string ascending & descending runs for a while, you'll soon find it's a useful thing.



Debatable - my alt picking isn't exactly brilliant (that'd be our Adminishredder's, lol), but I've been doing it long enough that 3NPS stuff feels perfectly natural for straight alternate picking. 

I actually used to be into economy picking - picked it up from one of those Guitar Grimore books, and thought it was the most brilliant idea ever, so I worked on it for a while and got reasonably good at it. However, in college I was studying under this great acoustic/jazz player, Paul Asbell, who was a strong advocate of alternate picking. After a couple weeks of good natured teasing, he finally convinced me to at least give alternate another shot, as he felt it gave your picking technique a more rhythmic, driving sound and was easier to hold a groove, and that even if he was wrong it was one more technique to have for the arsenal. 

And, you know what? He was right. It took me a little while to get the feel for it again, but once you get a steady picking motion going, really your body can kinda go on autopilot and you can just focus on getting your fretting hand where it should be. I think it's telling that most of the "economy picking" guys mentioned here (Lynch, Johnson, Gambale, etc) aren't known for their machine-gun alternate picking runs as much as other aspects of their technique (respectively, phrasing, not even sure where to begin, and sweeping) while many of the guys who are (Petrucci, and Morse most famously) are alternate pickers. 

For me, the way I understand it is that alternate picking and economy picking, on three note patterns, only differ with one note per group of four. Thus, if economy IS faster than alternate, you have to be gaining speed on that one note, and if this is true than you're no longer playing with a fixed, consistant rhythm. 

I wouldn't tell anyone NOT to economy pick, as it's a different and perfectly valid sound. It's just, make sure you know both, and when you decide which to focus on, make sure it's for YOUR reasons, and not because so-and-so likes one or the other. If you can become proficcient at both, then cool. Myself, I'm still paying for the two or three years I spent doing economy picking, so I'm hesitant to make things worse.

(anyway, I enjoy legato more than either. )


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 22, 2006)

I find it beneficial to change once in awhile. When starting out, my guitar teacher taught me to economy pick. After seeing Rock Discipline, I switched and worked on alternate, and my technique, speed and accuracy shot through the roof. I went back to economy after a bit and then I was a bit better. Once you reach a plateau in your playing/learning/whatever, you have to change what your doing to keep things fresh, at least that's what I feel, I've only been playing a little under 5 years, but that's what has happened to me, seemed to work. Not that I'm the best player, but improvement is improvement.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 22, 2006)

Drew...like I said, it takes time to really develop good articulation. I've really worked at this, and I've managed to get it to the stage where I can blend it fairly well with my alternate picking. I find the main advantage is that it's easier to make phrasing less predictable, as your lines tend not to conform to regimented patterns as much as they would with alternate picking. As for the timing issue, that's also just a question of practice...


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## strychnine (Feb 22, 2006)

My perception of the economy picking is sort of what drew said..
you break the constant rhythmic feeling of alternation because its when you jump strings its as if you glide the pick to the next making it feel like a sweeping motion..

I say you should just know both and make the choice on the run your working on. they have a different sound when you do it one way or the other...

I base my decision on the way it sounds rather then the way its useful.


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## Drew (Feb 22, 2006)

distressed_romeo said:


> As for the timing issue, that's also just a question of practice...



Hey, I did it for a couple years, bro, and at the time I was pretty comfortable with the level of technical proficiency I'd achieved. It's not like I felt like I couldn't do it, it's just that once I started working on strict alternate, my playing felt more rhythmic. I agree that it's a personal choice, but I want to stress here that it's not that economy failed me for lack of practice, just that I felt alternate offered something economy didn't. 

Also, once you start lagging your repeated pickstrokes to keep them in time, you lose any speed advantage you might have. 

I still remember a Steve Morse quote on the subject - "I switched from economy picking to alternate picking ten years ago, and I'm now nearly as fast as I was then." Humor aside, it stresses the fact that alternate picking takes the edge in precision. You may prefer the feel and the looser sound of economy, which is totally cool, but no matter how you look at it you won't have the same accents and same rhythmic drive that alternate picking offers, and while if you work VERY hard at it you can approximate the rhythmic accuracy, not only do you lose the speed advantage, it begs the question, why put so much effort into developing one technique when there's another technique that does a better job with less effort?

(Of course, the fact I consider myself and am known as around these parts mostly a legato player really weakens my percieved credibility here, lol, but still, bear with me. )


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 22, 2006)

All true...my original point was that using both gives me the facility to play whatever I want (I think that was my original point anyways...). I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of doing things...I just think it's interesting to compare notes.
With my students I always start them with alternate picking and some basic sweeps, but at the same time make them aware that economy picking is there, and it's a viable option if they want to try it.


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## Drew (Feb 22, 2006)

distressed_romeo said:


> All true...my original point was that using both gives me the facility to play whatever I want (I think that was my original point anyways...). I'm not trying to convert anyone to my way of doing things...I just think it's interesting to compare notes.
> With my students I always start them with alternate picking and some basic sweeps, but at the same time make them aware that economy picking is there, and it's a viable option if they want to try it.



Ok, then we're in perfect agreement. 

I think it's worth trying, it's just for me it didn't work out and I went back. That said, while I'm still paying for it (my pickstroke is only just beginning to smooth out completely), I don't regret the experiment, and most of my legato is still semi-economy - basically, I just pick wherever my pick happens to be, lol.


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## Cancer (Feb 22, 2006)

Just my 2 cents...

If youi're going to straight 3NPS scales, economy is probably the most "economcal" way to go. DUD and UDU are ALWAYS (imo) going to sound slightly different, so grouping them tends to sounds a bit smoother, then not (although that same smoothness could re-appear at higher velocity in alternate picking due to the shorter durtion of a six note grouping).

Economy picking (also IMO), take much less time to develop.

For non-scalar playing on the hand, economy tends not to work too well, simply because, hehehhehhe, there's nothing to economize.

I think economy is also a great problem solver for repairing alternative pickups techniques, since it tends to empahsize one direction, allowing the player to really focus on fixing that direction (speaking primarily abouit UDU, which had historically been a bitch or me to keep clean, a week of economy picking descending...cleans that right up).

But you have to love guys like Francesco Fareri,, who not only use economy picking, but mostly even notes patterns (string skipping), whiich, in effect, is the same thing, since passages on a new string are performed with a downstroke.

Picking fascinates me...can you tell? , too bad I suck at it.



Drew said:


> it begs the question, why put so much effort into developing one technique when there's another technique that does a better job with less effort?



This one question, kept me going back and forth for YEARS...

Another opinion, one the things I've noticed with some of my students, as well as other players, is that their seems to be a feeling that economy is somehow "cheating". I can understand where this comes from, given economy pickings ease of use, hell I've even fallen prey to it myself. But then there's that whole, "what's efficient for the body is better for the body mindset"....

10 years ago I would have been like (in best metal scowl) "Alternate picking, there is no other WAAYYYYY", now with the onset of age and curious joint pains, eh, maybe not so much.

Again, just my 2 cents


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## zimbloth (Feb 22, 2006)

I don't need to do economy picking lessons or anything. I realized since my initial post that I indeed do utilize economy picking now and then, only when the situation calls. It's not something I really consciously am aware of until I care to take notice. If Loomis does it then I'm sure I have too, as I occasionally warm up by playing some Nevermore tunes (correctly, with an emphasis on articulation and dynamics not just the correct notes).

So I guess my vote would just be for whatever works for a given situation. That being said, I much more use legato and alternate picking than anything else. Down picking thrown in for emphasis on occasion.


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## Chris D (Feb 22, 2006)

This discussion is quite fascinating...

Mostly because it's made me analyze my picking style/direction...

I reckon each technique is equally valid, and favouring one in particular will tend to make the other(s) suffer.

It seems that I tend to favour economy, falling easily in & out of legato without thinking about it, and seem only to alt-pick if I want a particularly staccato sound.

How I pick depends on whether I've played an odd or even number of notes on that particular string, and whether I'm moving from that string to a higher or lower one.
I've never really thought of economy-picking as "bad"... I'm wholly self-taught so I never had that "strictly alt-pick" thing, I didn't know that I did both alt & economy picking until I read about it.
I guess coming from a DM background means that fast downpicked stuff & mixed alt&econo-picked rhythm playing was just par-for-the-course.
Though I can remember _really_ early on practicing the "gallop" palm-mute-riff using every combination of up & downstrokes & trying to get it sounding consistant throughout...


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## Rev2010 (Feb 22, 2006)

This is a sensitive issue for me. I never even knew that it was called economy picking until I joined this forum. But here's how much this whole thing screwed me up....

I started playing at 17 (15 years ago). I used to pick economy. I was a very fast, good, lead guitar player. I played this way for about 5 years and all that time I found that I couldn't break my fastest speed and it all came down to the " down down" part breaking the flow. I went to reading up some books and all I could find at that time was alternate picking. So I came to the conclusion that I was simply picking in some fucked up incorrect way. Well, I resorted to trying to relearn my picking - as alternate. I did that for under a year and eventually fell into electronic music and stopped playing guitar. I've been back to playing guitar for about a year or so (8 years later) and I'm also playing a sevenstring. I can't tell you how shitty I feel sometimes at how I'm not even a shadow of how good I used to be. I mean, I can play rythym and all but leads? Forget about it. I never became fully aquainted with alternate picking so I'm still learning. On top of that I'm now using sevenstrings and the closer string spacing every now and then still fucks me up a little. So this whole combination of changes added together with that long absence of playing had stripped a lot from me. Of course I can get my technique built up again with practice but seeing the whole economy picking thing I can't help but wonder if I would've been smarting sticking with it. But nah, I'd rather do things correctly and I do believe alternate is a better picking method. Like I said, I personally found a speed block with picking economy from having to switch from D-U-D-U to D-U-D-D and back into D-U-D-U.


Rev.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 22, 2006)

This is the reason I teach my students picking in the way I described earlier; alternate picking is probably the best place to start, but if someone falls into economy picking naturally, and is getting good results with it, I can't see any reason to 'correct' them.
This is indeed a fascinating thread. I think the lesson we should all take from it, and this has been mentioned a few times already, is that no one approach is going to suit every musical situation, or feel comfortable for absolutely everybody. The same goes for the left hand; three note per string fingerings are probably the best way to learn scales initially, but if you base everything you do on that approach it's going to make some things a lot harder to do.


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## eaeolian (Feb 22, 2006)

psyphre said:


> Another opinion, one the things I've noticed with some of my students, as well as other players, is that their seems to be a feeling that economy is somehow "cheating". I can understand where this comes from, given economy pickings ease of use, hell I've even fallen prey to it myself. But then there's that whole, "what's efficient for the body is better for the body mindset"....
> 
> 10 years ago I would have been like (in best metal scowl) "Alternate picking, there is no other WAAYYYYY", now with the onset of age and curious joint pains, eh, maybe not so much.
> 
> Again, just my 2 cents



Interesting take. Given my metal vicious rhythm playing background - and the fact that picking lightly doesn't seem to be in my DNA - I tend to use downstrokes where a lot of people wouldn't, so I'm guilty of "subconciously" economy picking a lot when I'm improvising stuff. It does sound different, but in some cases that's a good thing...

So I guess I'm from the "whatever works for the phrasing" school.


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## strychnine (Feb 22, 2006)

eaeolian said:


> So I guess I'm from the "whatever works for the phrasing" school.



this could be the most important aspect of all. do what sounds best


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## Cancer (Feb 22, 2006)

Sorta on topic (more thoughts on picking....)

When I coming up I initially did not take lessons (outside of Mel Bay), just kinda experimented and found my own way (which I sort a regret now, cause I developed alot of bad habits, that I eventually had to unlearn). So I would play these scales in the box positions, much llike you'd see in those Mel Bay Lesson 1 acoustic guitar books. I used alternate picking (cause Mel said so), and that worked really well for slower rockish stuff. For instance I might play a minor scale (ascending) with this picking: DUD-UDU-*DU*-DUD-UDU-DUD. And even with those block poistion (can't remember the proper word), you could get some pretty rocking "impress your neighbors and family" stuff. Right? Play songs you heard on 70-80's rock radio, whatever. Somewhere in here, I hear Yngwie for the first time...., fall in love, and have absolutely no idea how to play his stuff. Hell, I don't even have a record player to slow it down with.

So later on my family moves to the suburbs, and lo and behold, I see other kids playing guitar, and they got the stuff that they learned and youi pick up stuff... Whoa, this kids uses 2 hands to tap, this kid picks from the wrist and can do really fast single string stuff, this kid picks once and then does a scale, and this kids, well he just plain sucks ....  I'm the new kid, and my rock licks are getting the SHIT kicked outta them by these other players, so I go into humble mood, and watch, learn, and pretty much steal what I can.

But this one kid, he's kinda weird, his picking is alternate but not quite, I didn't quite get it at first, as he would do single passages or runs, as opposed to whole scales. Luckily for me, he was cool and showed me his stuff, and thus another "circle picker" was born into the world

Then here comes this kid with a videotape...."INTENSE ROCK ONE", and WHOA nelly , who opened the floodgate? The video thing is a new concept to me, here I can watch was he does, slow it down, stop, repeat. This is great, I am inspired. All of you Gilbert fans here know, that Paul is strictly into alternate picking and legato, some sweeping stuff, but in general, just ridiculous alternate picking, with an emphasis on control.

So I'm watching this, and all of the sudden, the "validity" of my infant circle picking comes into play. I learn general gist of the "Gilbertean" sytle, life is good. Bands want to play with me, couple of players are scared when I "shred" other are just fascinated, and still haven't gotten my first groupie yet....

But every once in a while, for fun, I revisit a my little circle picking, giiggle in glee as only guitar players can, return to slaying dragons with my mightly alternate picking.

Then I see the Yngwie instructional video...finally a video of my first hero....and he economy picks. HoLY SHIT....(tried to find a full circle joke to put here and can't)


Now, I'm older discovered what I like, and what I like I don't, what tech works for me , and what doesn't. Am I trying to say one is better than the other? Absolutely not, both are EXTREMELY valid techniques. As anyone of a mulititude of players can attest. Just thinking aloud and wondering how much of my developement (or a player in general) can be attributed to looking without, as opposed to looking within.


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## Drew (Feb 22, 2006)

FWIW, "circle picking" and "economy picking" are two completely different things.



> This one question, kept me going back and forth for YEARS...



For the record, I was talking about alternate picking being the easier one.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 22, 2006)

Psyphre: I'm pretty sure most of us have gone through similar processes. I played everything with a mix of legato and sweeping for about two years, then saw an article in Total Guitar where Zakk Wylde said he picked every note, and so I decided I had to do that too. This meant no social life for the next 5 years.


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## Chris D (Feb 22, 2006)

Drew said:


> FWIW, "circle picking" and "economy picking" are two completely different things.
> For the record, I was talking about alternate picking being the easier one.



I find economy-picking easier than alt-picking...

Anyway, what's "circle-picking?"


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## Cancer (Feb 22, 2006)

Beelzebloke said:


> I find economy-picking easier than alt-picking...
> 
> Anyway, what's "circle-picking?"



I, thought circle picking was like economy picking, except the picking motion in more exaggerated. Still the same *DUD DUD DUD* stroke, done with a more circular motion.

I, could be wrong.... 


Thanks for editing my post btw, sadly my stream of concious, fails to detour into the library of grammar.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 23, 2006)

Circle picking is when the picking motion comes from moving the index finger and thumb in a 'writing' motion rather using the wrist or forearm. Some jazz guys do it. I did it by accident when I started playing and it really held me back for a few years until I switched to the classic wrist-flicky style.


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## Drew (Feb 24, 2006)

Beelzebloke said:


> I find economy-picking easier than alt-picking...
> 
> Anyway, what's "circle-picking?"



Again, this is subjective, but my comment was specifically with regards to doing machine-gun-accurate 16th note runs. Sure, you CAN do them with economy, but really it's easier to hold that kind of a groove with straight alternate. 

Alternately, even I'll admit that fluid triplet runs flow better with economy... I'd just rather do that stuff legato.  

DR's explanation of circular picking is spot-on. Some guys get blistering fast doing that, others (like DR, I gather) find it just doesn't work for them. Neither is "wrong" (straight back and forth alternate vs. circular pickstroke), per se. Myself, find circular picking feels kind of cool, but I haven't dedicated the sort of time to it where I could begin to built any sort of speed that could compete with my alternate picking, so I can't say how it holds up as you get towards the limits of tecnique. 

As an aside, I've been practicing my ass off alternate picking the last three or four days, and I'm starting to see results. With all Chris's talk of "Growing up Puppets" and his admittedly blazing picking technique, I've kinda felt the need to prove that the Nevermind generation can still hang with you old-school metallers, and it's really whipped my ass into gear to smooth out/speed up my picking technique. I've been doing a lot of trem picking while changing strings against a really cheezy fruity loops backing with a 16th shaker beat way in the background, and I'm inches from cracking that mythical 200bpm barrier with my trem picking.


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## Chris (Feb 24, 2006)

Alternate, ftw. 

Though growing up Puppets is more of a downstroke thing than alternates. I think I could downpick faster back when I was 18 than I can now.


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## abyssalservant (Feb 24, 2006)

A mix of the two.
Downpicking only in a chuggy rhythm sort of thing, when I'm accenting single-note riffs with chords. It's a lot easier to twitch your hand just a bit farther when you're only picking one way.
I actually started uppicking only when I first picked up a guitar . . . which I've never heard of anyone else doing. Then again, I am a special ed student *chuckles*. I moved to alternate picking under then influence of various friends with more experience, which took at least a week to get at all used to. Once I started taking lessons (with a shredder! David Shankle, ex-Manowar), I learned the wonders of technical exercises. I'm a very fast, accurate alternate picker - and thanks to exercises I've worked on, I mix in economy picking while crossing strings in linear runs. I'm still working on longer economy-picking movements (read: sweep picking), but I'm getting there.
Actually, ever since I had to deal with a FAST-picking James Hetfield worshipper in a band I played lead for, I've always been fast enough that I had to have bandmates do accents and such over any riff that I play fast. Gives an interesting sound to faster riffs - much more dynamic effect.
Wow, I wandered a little off topic there.
I love string skipping. Tad bit of economy picking there, eh? And thanks to Shankle, I've spent lots, lots, and more lots of time doing three-note-per-strings, hence the beginning of my mixed habits. The only problems that I used to run into were heavily arpeggio-based clean things - alternate picking slowed me down. Rock Discipline pointed out to me why it was bothering me, and I worked on it. One oddity - I tend to up-pick half of a longer arpeggio (descending) and alternate-pick the other. It confuses my brain when I think about it, but my hands seem happy with it.
Blurrr . . .


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 24, 2006)

Apparently Paul Gilbert played all upstrokes when he started. I imagine it would be a massive help when you began alternate picking, as it would have greatly strengthened your upstroke.
It's funny how people find wierd ways of doing things. Has anyone heard of that Brazilian guitarist, Tiago Della Vega (him of that idiotic 38nps video), and his claimed (but never actually seen ) variation on alternate picking? He's become notorious on a few guitar forums for claiming that his alternate picking goes DDUU rather than DUDU, and that he can pick anything using this approach...


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## God Hand Apostle (Feb 25, 2006)

"Apparently Paul Gilbert played all upstrokes when he started."

Do you have that video too? The clinic in Canada?

I am the only one who voted "Strict economy picking"..  That doesnt mean I dont practice legato or alternate picking. It's just what I have always been most comfortable doing.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 25, 2006)

Not sure what video you mean...it was just something I heard on a fansite.


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## maskofduality (Mar 2, 2006)

Chris said:


> Alternate, ftw.
> 
> Though growing up Puppets is more of a downstroke thing than alternates. I think I could downpick faster back when I was 18 than I can now.


i'm 18 now and my down pick is nowhere near the speed of my alternate. i can forsee my thrash metal potential plummeting b4 me lol.

i better get good at sweeps and legato lol.


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## Ancestor (Mar 3, 2006)

Work on all of them, then use what's appropriate. That's what I TRY to do. Ha!


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## Metal Ken (Mar 9, 2006)

maskofduality said:


> i'm 18 now and my down pick is nowhere near the speed of my alternate. i can forsee my thrash metal potential plummeting before me lol.


Learn some oldschool Iced Earth, ftw. Travel in Stygian = 7 minutes of thrash metal rythm guitar. Also, +1 For master. Disposable Heroes = The metallica song.


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## eaeolian (Mar 16, 2006)

Metal Ken said:


> Learn some oldschool Iced Earth, ftw. Travel in Stygian = 7 minutes of thrash metal rythm guitar. Also, +1 For master. Disposable Heroes = The metallica song.



+1 on both - "Stygian" is a real right-hand workout.


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## FredGrass (Apr 6, 2006)

I picked all of the above, cause it depends what I'm playing. I'll use alternate picking when I want something to have more flavour or vibe to it, and I use kind of syncopated alternate picking a lot when I'm attempting to improvise. If I can't swing it through alternate picking, my hand just automatically goes to economy picking. If I want something to be real heavy and booming, I dig in with downstrokes only. Basically I just go by what I want the piece to feel like, but my default picking style is a hybrid alternate/economy style. And my legato is like the total suck, but I still try. A whole different beast though is sweeping... That shit fucks with me bad. I've still got so much development to do though so I'm not worried about it.


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## Unknown Doodl3.2 (Apr 18, 2006)

eaeolian said:


> +1 on both - "Stygian" is a real right-hand workout.



so is "path i choose" holy crap...

my main problem is "economy of motion" over the past six months ive gtten better at it but im seemingly obsessed with picking as fast as possible with minimal movement...it hinders my speed... but keeps all notes clear... am i taking the right approach>?


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## Adam (Apr 29, 2006)

Unknown Doodl3.2 said:


> so is "path i choose" holy crap...
> 
> my main problem is "economy of motion" over the past six months ive gtten better at it but im seemingly obsessed with picking as fast as possible with minimal movement...it hinders my speed... but keeps all notes clear... am i taking the right approach>?


I say yes, because it makes your right hand seem less sloppy, and over time your speed will increase, and then you will have crystal clear notes at Rusty Cooley speeds , trust me it's worth the effort.


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## David (May 9, 2006)

Yngwie said:


> I say yes, because it makes your right hand seem less sloppy, and over time your speed will increase, and then you will have crystal clear notes at Rusty Cooley speeds , trust me it's worth the effort.


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## Bregaladar (May 27, 2006)

I really haven't paid attention to how I pick in the past, but lately I noticed that more often than not I downpickhbang: ). So, I started doing arpeggios and stuff with alternate picking...so far, so good.


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## sixpounder (Jun 16, 2006)

Since i've started economy picking, it feels like my alternate picking has gone down a lot. I just can`t seem to progress much with economy, it feels like a never ending nightmare. I`m ok on 3 or four strings, but going from the bottom to the top without fumbling or slowing down is just not happening. And i spend too much time on that.
I'd like to learn as many different techniques as possible reasonably well, but this one is really a pain.


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## Durero (Jun 16, 2006)

sixpounder said:


> Since i've started economy picking, it feels like my alternate picking has gone down a lot. I just can`t seem to progress much with economy, it feels like a never ending nightmare. I`m ok on 3 or four strings, but going from the bottom to the top without fumbling or slowing down is just not happening. And i spend too much time on that.
> I'd like to learn as many different techniques as possible reasonably well, but this one is really a pain.


Dude I feel your pain. Took me about 2 years of practice to feel really confident with sweep picking scales & arpeggios. But now my picking hand is so much more relaxed than it was with alternate picking that it feels like I can play much faster but only using about 1/4 of the muscle effort.

On the other hand, I sometimes miss that 'machine gun' sounding alternate picking I used to do - oh well...


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## Mark. A (Jun 17, 2006)

Sweep, Legato and Alternate picking for me


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## Adam (Jun 17, 2006)

Mark. A said:


> Sweep, Legato and Alternate picking for me


Same


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## Brett89 (Jul 2, 2006)

What kind of picking is he useing at 1:12  ???????? Please help  

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1n5B8o6mVso&search=morbid angel

Thank you


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Jul 8, 2006)

I guess I'm an alternate picker in general, but I tend to utilize a healthy amount of economy picking licks à la Frank Gambale. I feel the most essential of the two is alternate picking, and is a technique I feel every electric guitarist should learn. However, economy picking gives a certain sound that I feel is the 'missing link' between the staccato sound of alt. picking and the fluid sound of legato, and I believe many players could benefit from using this technique.


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## LEWY7777777 (Jul 22, 2006)

"I believe a mixture of picking styles be employed for what ever use you have for it in that particular piece your playing. For example say I wish not to pluck every note played at full volumes for a certain purpose that I wish to employ in the engineering of the sound I want to make. Then again hitting each note on purpose has its effect as well with full volumes in the right piece of music. I think this has to do with why your doing a certain thing and knowing the reason. And thats how you can make certain techniques effective. Downstrokes upstrokes double alternate plucking scraping slapping etc. etc. all have distinct qualities in sound character. I feel it is important for a player to use every means at their disposal to create what the player is trying to convey.


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## distressed_romeo (Jul 23, 2006)

Both of the above are good posts...  There's no reason not to learn both, as having new ways of attacking the strings gives you options. For example, I've recently been practicing Al DiMeola's arpeggio-style, which has a much more punchy and percussive sound than sweeping. Not going to give up sweep-picking by any means, but it's cool to have other options.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 13, 2006)

Mostly economy picking, but there are sections of songs where I play chords/notes entirely downpicked for a bigger and more powerful sound. It all depends on what sound I want to make/hear.


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## 2powern (Aug 28, 2006)

Brett89 said:


> What kind of picking is he useing at 1:12  ???????? Please help
> 
> http://youtube.com/watch?v=1n5B8o6mVso&search=morbid angel
> 
> Thank you




Fretboard/finger tapping.


I started off with all downstrokes (punk fan), then progressed to almost 100% alternate picking, and now it's alternate all the way for single strings, downpicking for powerchords and economy for multiple string runs.
I just can't get my head round sweep-picking.


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## Korbain (Aug 29, 2006)

maskofduality said:


> the only one i don't do is all downstrokes... so i guess that counts for all of the above -1?



sif not do some downstrokes? Lol


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## LilithXShred (Sep 22, 2006)

I do pretty much everything mentioned. Whatever sounds best for a lick or riff. But I play a lot legato, i love the smooth sound of it in fast licks.


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## eelblack2 (Oct 23, 2006)

Im forcing my self to relearn alternate picking. I realized almost everything I was doing was defaulting to legato as a result of hitting a speed barrier trying to circular pick when I shouldnt be circular picking. Now that Im keeping the fingers where they should be, and the wrist is doing the work - the alternate picking is starting to make sense again from a speed and accuracy perspective. The Ozzy/Randy Tribute album is the textbook of badass oldschool alternate picking if you are looking for machinegun practice material. Its definitely an uphill battle trying to regain the speed after so many years of bad habits and lazyness.


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## Vince (Oct 23, 2006)

I read through the thread quite a bit, and I've gotta say I've never been into economy picking. It just seems weird to do dd-u uu-d or anything like that unless you're doing a variation on a rhythm, maybe like the 0-1-2 riff to master of puppets.

I'm with Drew & Chris on this one. Alternate picking & Legato are my kind of lead playing, and thrash metal downstrokes FTW on rhythm!!


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## Pablo (Oct 23, 2006)

I ticked economy picking - basically to give the pole a bit of spice... but (obviously) I should have ticked "all of the above". To me economy _feels_ extremely logical - it's sort of a fusion of alternate and sweeping. Economy (in my interpretation) is all about _feeling_ your way up and down strings rather than _counting_ accents. For instance: when I play 3 note per string runs, economy picking is smooth, easy and simple but when I change to 4 notes per string, my economy picking obviously changes to _alternate picking_... and I feel quite comfortable doing that as well.

In my experience, it is harder for most players to accent certain notes when economy picking rather than alternate... but when you do learn it, it makes it a lot easier to say... [panic]start on an opstroke[/panic], sweep or accent rythms with accent on an upstroke - simply because you aren't tied to ye olde "1=down=accent, 2=up, 3=down, 4=up" repeat ad nauseam (as this is impossible to maintain with economy picking). 

Cheers

Eske


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## OzzyC (Oct 23, 2006)

i prefer alt picking...i basically only use economy when i do arpeggiated stuff i rarely do legato and once in a while ill do the all downstroke thing


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## Chris D (Oct 24, 2006)

It can be interesting to play stuff with a predominance of upstrokes, Zappa style...


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## includao (Oct 24, 2006)

It's really hard to economy pick this (UDD) and get the same accent in upstrokes that I get playing this with DDD:

ie:http://rapidshare.com/files/477973/alternatepick.mp3.html

but my picking hand gets tired easily... downstrokes all the way sounds good but I avoid it. my picking style is more for a smooth lead playing.

riff 1
e|--------------------------------------------------------
b|--------------------------------------------------------
g|--------------------------------------------------------
d|-----2----4----4-6---4-6---4-----2----4----7----6----4--
a|--44---44---44-----4-----4----00---00---00---00---00----
e|--------------------------------------------------------

riff 2
e|------------------------------------------------------------
b|-------------------------------------7----------------------
g|---------------------------------6-----6---6-----4---6---4--
d|-----2----4----2-4---2-4---2--44---4-----4----66---6---6----
a|--22---22---22-----2-----2----------------------------------
e|------------------------------------------------------------


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