# Milk.



## Aevolve (Feb 24, 2012)

So I've heard a plethora of opinions on this, searched for a thread, and found nothing really relevant to my question.

Which is truly better for you nutritionally?
Whole milk or Skim/Lowfat milk?

Whole milk quite obviously has much more fat in it but I've heard arguments saying that skim/lowfat milk is processed down into nothing but sugar, really.

Comments?


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 24, 2012)

In moderation and supplementing a proper diet, both are roughly equal.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Feb 24, 2012)

That's the most retarded thing people say, skim milk is fine. Just look at the fucking nutrition thing, it says there's protein in it


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## jackalan996 (Feb 24, 2012)

these both milks have the equal quality and parameters.you can use both according your desire. but you also know that milk is only the product which have all the vitamins.

San Diego Weight Loss


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## Explorer (Feb 24, 2012)

A friend of mine who works at Johns Hopkins (so I'm assuming she knows her stuff) told me that vitamin D, which is normally added to milk, is a fat-soluble vitamin, and that the vitamin is not easily absorbed when in skim milk. 

She also told me that some studies show that men who drink six or more 8-oz glasses of whole milk have reductions in LDL cholesterol and their triglycerides (20% for the triglycerides?), and that they build muscle more easily. That's a huge amount of milk, though.


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## Cuthbert (Feb 24, 2012)

Milk is best and healthy food for the person who want to gain weight because it is rich of with fat but it is not to good for those who want lose weight due to rich of fat. Fat increase the weight.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Feb 24, 2012)

A few friends of mine are constantly on and off training for martial arts competition. 

They strongly advised me against cow's milk due to agricultural practices. 

They claim: 
Cow's udders are often removed so that they can be mechanically milked, this and other factors cause mastitis, which is an infection of the mammary glands. Sooo, they pump it full of antibiotics to counteract the puss. The animals are all fed steroids etc. so it's in the milk after pasturisation.

They all drink Soya as a life choice, to prevent desensitisation to anti biotics. They all get broken a lot so need maximum healing factor. 

Crazy ninjas...


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## Explorer (Feb 24, 2012)

Just to note: in the US, certified organic milk isn't going to be pumped full of antibiotics, and will also be free of rBGH.

I stopped drinking soy milk in a major way when I found it it was full of genistein and daidzein, which are so similar to estrogen that they're known as phytoestrogens (plant-produced estrogens). Tofu doesn't have high levels because the soy is fermented, but soy milk has been the culprit in cases where men have developed breasts while their penises atrophied. 

One more thought: unless the soy you're consuming is organic, there is a lot of research showing that genetically modified (GM) soy, which is 87% of the soy produced in the US, causes liver damage in animal tests... and that the gene sequence responsible for the change can also make the jump into the normal intestinal bacteria in the human stomach, meaning your gut will forever have the problem dwelling within. 

(Sorry, I know that was all really wonky, but a coworker of mine does a lot of work on food issues, and she just presented to a few groups on GMO issues.)


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## ZXIIIT (Feb 24, 2012)

Explorer said:


> I stopped drinking soy milk in a major way when I found it it was full of genistein and daidzein, which are so similar to estrogen that they're known as phytoestrogens (plant-produced estrogens). Tofu doesn't have high levels because the soy is fermented, but soy milk has been the culprit in cases where men have developed breasts while their penises atrophied.



That's not really true info on the soy, 
(taken from a breast cancer site Confused about soy and estrogen? )
_Soy proteins contain isoflavones that can mimic a weak estrogen effect. It's not "high test" estrogen like your own body would make. It is 1,000 times weaker than your own body's estrogen_

I read up on that before I became vegan, most of it has been myths and soy seems to balance your estrogen levels, not give you more or take away.

I've been drinking strictly soy/almond/rice and coconut milk for 2 years now, and I've felt 100 times better than my milk drinking days (and I enjoyed milk but always questioned it's quick expiration, taste, reason and purpose) not to mention milk is disgustingly gross, unless you really enjoy drinking accumulated white blood cells


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## Uncreative123 (Feb 24, 2012)

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> The animals are all fed steroids etc. so it's in the milk after pasturisation.




lol, it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people are when it comes to steroids.


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## Harry (Feb 24, 2012)

Cuthbert said:


> Milk is best and healthy food for the person who want to gain weight because it is rich of with fat but it is not to good for those who want lose weight due to rich of fat. Fat increase the weight.




Right, because dietary fat = fat levels in the body.
And of course, net weight change over time is definitely not determined by caloric intake, with macronutrient intake definitely not determining body compositional changes.
Must just be pure luck that I continue to lose fat on a high fat diet, right
Reality =/ crap people read in a women's magazine


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## Aevolve (Feb 26, 2012)

Harry said:


> Right, because dietary fat = fat levels in the body.
> And of course, net weight change over time is definitely not determined by caloric intake, with macronutrient intake definitely not determining body compositional changes.
> Must just be pure luck that I continue to lose fat on a high fat diet, right
> Reality =/ crap people read in a women's magazine



So should I switch to higher-fat milk? Or is skim fine?


I'm gathering from what people say here that both are equally as good and it doesn't really matter in the slightest.


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## leandroab (Feb 27, 2012)

Jesus christ... Here. I'll help you guys out.

1- Do you want to reduce your daily fat intake?
Yes: Drink skim/no fat milk
No: Drink whole milk

The only difference between whole and skim milk is a loss of flavor and creaminess/texture/color when the fat is removed from the milk.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Feb 27, 2012)

I always equated soy with estrogen, perhaps I will do more research as I know little about it.

@Uncreative123

I was just presenting a short version of a long lecture given to me at close range by an intimidating giant. When giants are talking, I go with a "let the Wookie win" policy.



I'm sure google could present some interesting information in agricultural steroids, but I agree that bold accusations should be reserved without presenting more information.

1st google result
China food scandals: China wrestles with food safety problems - Los Angeles Times


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## VBCheeseGrater (Feb 27, 2012)

on a side note, organic milk TASTES 10x better. Plus, it lasts a few months, which gets me pretty suspicious about the non-organic stuff and it's 2 week expiration.


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## AxeHappy (Feb 27, 2012)

I'm lactose intolerant so I made the switch to Almond milk a bit ago and I approve. 

No protein in it though.


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## Labrie (Feb 27, 2012)

Skim milk has been stripped of fat and therefore a good chunk of the fat soluble vitamins originally in milk also. It would be correct the say that skim milk is basically all sugar which leads to those lovely insulin spikes much like other foods with a high glycemic index. I think if you have an issue with body fat, your choice of milk is the least of your concerns. In an otherwise healthy individual saturated fat is not the poison that popular opinion leads you to believe.


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## Greatoliver (Feb 27, 2012)

Labrie said:


> In an otherwise healthy individual saturated fat is not the poison that popular opinion leads you to believe.



Bit of a tautology here. Nothing is a problem in a healthy individual 

/being a dick 

It is still a problem, to a certain extent - it raises the risk of cardiovascular diseases. Mononsaturates are better for you, in most situations. You do need some sat fat though, as you need some for the cholesterol in the cell membrane.

Also, there is protein in milk too, which is not stripped out with the fat. I think the vitamins in milk are pretty negligible, unless you drink large quantities. The same can be said about the difference between whole vs skimmed - it is a matter of 100 calories or so.

That being said, if you are looking to reduce your calorie intake, it does make a difference.


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## Blake1970 (Feb 27, 2012)

I use 2% with my protein powder.


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## Labrie (Feb 27, 2012)

Greatoliver said:


> Bit of a tautology here. Nothing is a problem in a healthy individual
> 
> /being a dick
> 
> ...



Insulin spikes can also cause atherosclerosis so that argument is invalid. I'm not saying milk will give you a heart attack, I'm more or less saying the fat content in milk should not be perceived as such a bad thing.


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## Aevolve (Feb 27, 2012)

Once again- what I'm gathering = It doesn't matter in the slightest 

I have pretty low bodyfat, so I'm not really worried about the fat content. But I try not to eat unnecessary amounts of fat. I guess I'll just drink 1%. It's my favorite as far as taste goes anyway.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Feb 27, 2012)

Malk. I love me a big glass of malk.


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## Wingchunwarrior (Feb 28, 2012)

Milk is so good for you, you have to question whether its not from this earth


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, Aliens do abduct cows don't they??


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## Ibanezsam4 (Feb 28, 2012)




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## Rook (Mar 1, 2012)

Explorer said:


> A friend of mine who works at Johns Hopkins (so I'm assuming she knows her stuff) told me that vitamin D, which is normally added to milk, is a fat-soluble vitamin, and that the vitamin is not easily absorbed when in skim milk.
> 
> She also told me that some studies show that men who drink six or more 8-oz glasses of whole milk have reductions in LDL cholesterol and their triglycerides (20% for the triglycerides?), and that they build muscle more easily. That's a huge amount of milk, though.



Seriously?

I'm switching to whole! I drink semi, about 3 or 4 pints a day.


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## Mattmc74 (Mar 1, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXlysDkAnJI


LOL!!!


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## Explorer (Mar 1, 2012)

I had forgotten about this topic, but a few points:

Although it's possibly not as credible as that "soy myths" website cited earlier, a study by researchers from a little fly-by-night place called Harvard, and published in the online journal _Human Reproduction_ by the European Society for Human Reproduction and Embryology, found that men who consumed more soy had lower sperm counts. 

And, although one might be annoyed by this next part, women who are suffering from hot flashes and other little symptoms from menopause, caused by their bodies cutting back on estrogen production, have been found to be helped by soy consumption. Something in that soy is mimicking the estrogen. I'm not sure if one can argue that those studies must also be discarded or not, in order to bolster the idea that soy doesn't have any estrogenic properties. 

----

I also like that someone reached for milk containing white blood cells. I applaud taking the tack that human breast milk shouldn't be consumed by infants because of its gross-out factor. *laugh*

----

Last point: If one is talking about environmental impact, one can more easily produce dairy milk in a sustainable way than soymilk. A huge amount of land has to be used for a soybean crop, compared to cows which can use even uncultivatable land. That's one of the reasons cows are such an asset in India. 

Cheers!


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## Winspear (Mar 3, 2012)

I love my milk. Scares me whenever I think about it though because there are so many conflicting opinions on what is healthy.
I have around 4-5 pints of full fat a day, it's awesome. Can't imagine trying to meet my calories without it!


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## Uncreative123 (Mar 4, 2012)

This is worth reading:

Harvard study: Pasteurized milk from industrial dairies linked to cancer

"
*Harvard study: Pasteurized milk from industrial dairies linked to cancer"*



And here is the less-biased original story that is cited in the above story:

Hormones in milk can be dangerous


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## Explorer (Mar 4, 2012)

rGBH and other hormones are a great reason to go for organic milk, just as GM soy is a great reason to go organic on the soy products.

Most Offspring Died When Mother Rats Ate GM Soy

What I find alarming is that when you see studies published which find problems with GM foods, the scientists are let go relatively soon afterwards. 

It's probably not surprising that Monsanto is involved with both bovine hormones and genetically modified plants. 

BTW, not directly related to all this, but did you all know that GM crops, in spite of their public image, actually produce less crops per acre than conventional crops? It's neat how the GMO PR engine has managed to maintain that image, in spite of the studies over the years.


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## Fiction (Mar 4, 2012)

My friend is convinced drinking more than two glasses of milk a day is bad for you, that it can cause/exaggerate autism, parkinsons, cancer and too much can turn your bones weak from calcium overload.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Mar 4, 2012)

trolololol my mum switched us from whole to semi-skimmed to be healthier, I'm gonna ask her to buy me some full-fat, I'm switching back. Time for DEM GAINZ


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## ZXIIIT (Mar 5, 2012)

Explorer said:


> I also like that someone reached for milk containing white blood cells. I applaud taking the tack that human breast milk shouldn't be consumed by infants because of its gross-out factor. *laugh*



I'll drink HUMAN milk any day before drinking milk from another species, 

I would write more but had a looong weekend lol


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## Empryrean (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm lactose intolerant, what other alternatives are there?
I've been drinking soymilk ever since about 3rd or 4th grade when I noticed that after lunch my stomach would hurt like hell and I'd have the shits all night. But I don't wanna grow a pair of boobs, and I would like to have children someday...so now what?


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## Explorer (Mar 5, 2012)

Since dairy products have more bioavailability of calcium than plant-based calcium sources, I'd suggest you look at cultured yogurts or hard cheeses for calcium, and maybe lactose-free milk (and as always, I suggest getting an organic milk like Organic Valley).

If you go for a fortified almond milk, make sure it's fortified with calcium tricarbonate rather than calcium triphosphate (phosphates lead to 25% reduced calcium absorption compared with cow's milk). 

----

I also suggest you talk to a nutritionist, should you really want to be sure you're doing okay. I was ramping up to full-on veganism again, but my iron level started dropping to really bad levels. My nutritionist told me all kinds of interesting things, including the fact that the body absorbs heme iron (animal iron) more readily than plant or mineral sources... but consuming a small amount of heme iron at the same time one is consuming a non-heme iron will lead to increased absorption of all iron in the digestive tract. I started chewing a small square of buffalo jerky five minutes before taking the iron sulfate supplement, and my iron level jumped by a much greater amount than my doctor had ever seen when monitoring a patient using iron supplementation. 

Anyway, my point is, this is what nutritionists get paid for.

(Funny note: my nutritionist was vegan until he was halfway through school, and everything he was reading and studying led him to go back to consuming animal products for a balanced diet. Pretty amusing, considering he had been a committed vegan for over 10 years. That's the way things go when you study, sometimes....)


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## Hollowway (Mar 5, 2012)

http://www.hulu.com/watch/4164/saturday-night-live-milk

Edit: Gah! Can't get the damn thing to embed.


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## Ckackley (Mar 5, 2012)

As Explorer has been saying don't believe the GM hype. Go certified organic. My family farms a couple hundred acres as a hobby and to supply ourselves with safe meat. We stopped using commercial fertilizers years ago due to cost when oil prices surged. We went to all organic animal waste and crop rotation. The results ? Increased crop/grass yield and no $20,000 or $30,000 a year fertilizer bills. We stopped putting our cattle in a yard and feeding them corn before we butchered them. Results ? Less fat in the beef and a better taste. AND no huge feed bills. Companies sell a product and advertise accordingly. 
Back on topic- Drink organic whole milk in moderation. Hell, do everything in moderation and you'll be fine.


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## Aevolve (Mar 5, 2012)

Ckackley said:


> Back on topic- Drink organic whole milk in moderation. Hell, do everything in moderation and you'll be fine.



I've been drinking nothing but Organic skim for the past few years. Good stuff.


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## Explorer (Mar 5, 2012)

@Ckackley - I don't remember who said this (Michael Pollan, maybe?), but the observation has been made that working farms of the past have now become segregated monocultures, neatly dividing sustainable animal and plant interdependence into two problems: fertilizing plants and feeding animals. 

It's been interesting that studies have revealed organic yields to be larger than conventional, and conventional yields to be larger than GM crops. 

One of the scarier things which one discovers when a farmer has both GM and conventional crops is that livestock which escapes and which has choice of what to eat, will walk through fields of GM crops, leaving them untouched, in order to reach conventional crops. If given a choice, an animal won't eat GM crops. 

At work, we've been watching a few projects where farmers have been rotating pasturage and crops and having great success with it. 

It's also been interesting to watch how much of a premium one can get selling grassfed beef. It definitely has a great taste.


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## flint757 (Mar 5, 2012)

Hollowway said:


> Hulu - Saturday Night Live: Milk
> 
> Edit: Gah! Can't get the damn thing to embed.



There ya go 

I drink 2%, but I'm not particularly health conscious, but I probably should be.


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## AxeHappy (Mar 6, 2012)

While I'm spilt on the Organic Vs. GM food issue I will say:

Grass fed Beef>Corn Fed Beef.

But that has more to do with Cows having evolved to eat Grass than GM vs. Organic.


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## flint757 (Mar 6, 2012)

AxeHappy said:


> While I'm spilt on the Organic Vs. GM food issue I will say:
> 
> Grass fed Beef>Corn Fed Beef.
> 
> But that has more to do with Cows having evolved to eat Grass than GM vs. Organic.



I don't know how corn works in cows, but if it does what it does in humans then it makes since why grass fed is better.


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## Adam Of Angels (Mar 6, 2012)

I usually am disregarded or ridiculed when I express my support for Organic diets. I always find such ridicule to be irresponsible.

Concerning the point Explorer made about Iron from animal sources - that's interesting, and I want to look into why that might be. I wonder if it's a purely chemical process/difference or if there's any psychological effects involved. Even logically, it makes sense that animal products would be better sources of iron (higher concentration of iron than in plant sources, in many cases, and animal products also take longer to digest). However, logic is not usually an exact science, so I'm going to read into that a bit.


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## Adam Of Angels (Mar 6, 2012)

flint757 said:


> I don't know how corn works in cows, but if it does what it does in humans then it makes since why grass fed is better.



Corn does practically nothing for a human.


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## flint757 (Mar 6, 2012)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Corn does practically nothing for a human.



 ya I know that was my point. It very well might not do much for the cow either.


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## ilyti (Mar 6, 2012)

Explorer said:


> (Funny note: my nutritionist was vegan until he was halfway through school, and everything he was reading and studying led him to go back to consuming animal products for a balanced diet. Pretty amusing, considering he had been a committed vegan for over 10 years. That's the way things go when you study, sometimes....)


 
Yeah, I've never seen the logic in any "extreme" diets, which cut out important nutritional elements. 

Sometimes I buy Lactancia pure filtered milk on sale, because that has a much longer shelf life. But it's like twice as much as regular milk, and I drink a lot of milk. Anyway, does filtered milk help to get rid of the bad stuff we're talking about in regular milk to the same extent that organic milk would?


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## Explorer (Mar 7, 2012)

Wow, I had never really read up on milk filtration! New word of the day... BACTOFUGE. *laugh*

Having now done some reading, I've found that although a filter size of .2 microns will filter out bacteria, it will also clog with the fat and protein which is normal in milk. What Lactantia does is run it's milk through a centrifuge, as bacteria and bacterial spores are heavier than milk. 

What most of us are talking about as bad in milk, though, isn't bacterial in nature. Instead, we're talking about hormones which are a normal part of the liquid milk solution. Recombinant bovine growth hormone (rGBH) makes cows give much more milk, but leads to infections requiring constant application of antibiotics. The antibiotics and rGBH are not destroyed by pasteurization, so you're absorbing the IGF1 and antibiotics when you drink milk from rGBH-injected cows, leading to *you* not only constantly ingesting an artificial hormone, but being at risk of developing antibiotic-resistant infections. The evidence is accumulating which links IGF-1 to increases in breast and prostate cancer. 

BTW, there's a lot of evidence that conventional milk herds treated with rGBH have a high calf mortality rate, much higher than untreated herds. 

And, to be clear, those substances aren't removed through filtration.

----

One more thing: Did you know that American milk produced with rGBH is banned from Europe, being a genetically modified food? In Europe, you need to prove that a product is safe, rather than not having demonstrated a harm yet. Monsanto has funded many studies, but will not release them. If those studies were unable to find harm, you can bet that Monsanto would push to have a new market opened for their products. No such luck for them so far.


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## Winspear (Mar 7, 2012)

Now I'm scared of milk


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## Explorer (Mar 7, 2012)

@double E - Don't be afraid of milk. Be afraid of Monsanto products. *laugh*

And, although that was a joke, in making it I realize that the GM soy *and* the rGBH which have caused so many problems in studies are both from Monsanto.


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## Greatoliver (Mar 9, 2012)

Crooks said:


> Milk comes under complete diet.If you are not in a position to have proper food then just take half or quarter liter fresh pure milk on daily basis .You will never have any deficiency.



I'm pretty certain that is not true. For one, it doesn't have any fibre in it (or a negligible amount)


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## ilyti (Mar 9, 2012)

I learned today from a reputable source (my mom), that the rBGH doesn't exist in Canadian milk. Apparently it's been banned for at least 12 years now. So, hurrah, I don't have to be scared into buying $11 organic milk.


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