# Kiesel vs Ernie Ball Music Man Build Quality



## bmth4111 (Sep 20, 2019)

How does Kiesel stack up to Ernie Ball Music man in terms of build quality and over all fit and finish. Really considering both brands but over all build quality will be a big deciding factor.

I am unable to try a Kiesel and will try a Jp15 7 string soonish. The ebmm guitars look flawless and so ergonomic, wondering if the kiesel dc700x would stack up.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 20, 2019)

Eh, probably about even said and done. I've owned both and wouldn't really say one is head and shoulders above the other. 

Really it's going to come down to player preference.


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## kamello (Sep 20, 2019)

the JP15 is the nicest guitar I've played ever.
Had a top-of-the-line Kiesel and wanted to trade it for a JP BFR

now, regarding quality; both brands were excellent, so it really depends on what you are looking for in an instrument


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## Musiscience (Sep 20, 2019)

The few EBMM I owned were great. Their trem system is great and neck fell/finish is best in business IMO. Customer service seems great.

Never played a Kiesel but hear a lot of people love them and that the quality is usually great. There are some duds from time to time popping up on forums though and their customer service will tell you to F off. Resale is much worse than EBMM too.

If you care at all about service and resale, I would say stick with EBMM.


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## @zwen (Sep 20, 2019)

Both are very good guitars, but I would go with Ernie Ball. Kiesel makes some beautiful guitars though.


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## secretpizza (Sep 20, 2019)

Ernie Ball’s quality is higher, and I’ve owned a few JPs including JP15s and they’ve been very solid. I’ve also owned a good few Kiesels and they’re pretty fantastic as well, the odd QC issue aside. I would probably try a JP before you buy; for whatever reason (probably just my playing style), I tend to have issues with slipping the high E off the edge of the fretboard. Just my two cents.


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## Albake21 (Sep 20, 2019)

Funny enough I just traded my brand new Kiesel for a JP16, honestly might be the best trade I've ever made. Quality wise they're pretty close, but I think Music Man just takes that slight extra step in small details making it look higher quality. The reality is, you'll be more than happy with either one. The more and more I realize it, Kiesels are just glorified MIK guitars. They are just a made to order factory with excellent quality. My biggest problem though is you can tell where they cut corners on their guitars compared to other high end brands or actual custom shops.


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## Bdtunn (Sep 20, 2019)

Ha 
I’ve had problems with both.....


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## High Plains Drifter (Sep 20, 2019)

Never had an EBMM but I have had a Kiesel. Build quality was excellent... flawless guitar. But I never gelled with it and subsequently sold it. It was a seven string so ymmv but I've played many seven strings from different manufacturers and never had much problem acclimating/ adjusting to subtle differences between brands/ specs. Something about the Kiesel neck profile or width or materials just left me uninspired. I'd go for an EBMM any day just from all the positive reviews. Plus- Fuck Kiesel's return "policy" and customer "service". I have had issues in that regard.


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## Demiurge (Sep 20, 2019)

Can you get a JP in Galactic Watermelon Burst?

Check. Mate.


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## noise in my mind (Sep 20, 2019)

I own both. The quality is even.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 20, 2019)

If you can stomach the godawful EBMM headstock design, then yeah they're great guitars. Personally I found my kiesels to be basically on par with most of the EBMMs I've tried. YMMV


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## noise in my mind (Sep 20, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> If you can stomach the godawful EBMM headstock design, then yeah they're great guitars. Personally I found my kiesels to be basically on par with most of the EBMMs I've tried. YMMV



Lol, my buddy says the same thing about my ebmm guitras. I always thought the headstocks looked kinda cool, like a mini strat head.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 20, 2019)

noise in my mind said:


> Lol, my buddy says the same thing about my ebmm guitras. I always thought the headstocks looked kinda cool, like a mini strat head.


It's fine on some designs, like the JP, but I absolutely hate the way it looks against the Albert Lee/St. Vincent bodies. Pointy bodies need pointy headstocks yo


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## noise in my mind (Sep 20, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> It's fine on some designs, like the JP, but I absolutely hate the way it looks against the Albert Lee/St. Vincent bodies. Pointy bodies need pointy headstocks yo



I'll concur with you on those guitars. Both of my ebmm's are JP models


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## bzhang9 (Sep 21, 2019)

Basically on par in terms of pure quality. Obviously very different specs but a JP is still 2x the cost of a moderately spec'd kiesel


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## olejason (Sep 22, 2019)

Even quality. Both have the potential to look gaudy as hell.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 22, 2019)

I cant speak for anything but this: the JP series from EBMM seems to be the most consistent and most improved upon guitar (and model series) since its evolution. I dont think you can get a better guitar than the majesty. Literally, I dont think you can buy a better guitar, even if its custom hand made by Kiesel, which has a great rep, i just dont see any guitar touching the majesty by leaps in bounds by almost every spec.....maybe if you paid double of what the EBMM costs, you could get something AS GOOD , maybe(?).....but idk , thats just my oversimplified view of all the guitars I’ve seen, especially 7 strings.


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## bzhang9 (Sep 22, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> I cant speak for anything but this: the JP series from EBMM seems to be the most consistent and most improved upon guitar (and model series) since its evolution. I dont think you can get a better guitar than the majesty. Literally, I dont think you can buy a better guitar, even if its custom hand made by Kiesel, which has a great rep, i just dont see any guitar touching the majesty by leaps in bounds by almost every spec.....maybe if you paid double of what the EBMM costs, you could get something AS GOOD , maybe(?).....but idk , thats just my oversimplified view of all the guitars I’ve seen, especially 7 strings.



That is very subjective though. A majesty is $3k, no doubt high quality and great specs, although you can argue the trem is lacking (vs floyd and edge variants) and some finishes are pretty ugly. The strength of Kiesel is you can pick specs and looks that a majesty can't match either, and will likely be much cheaper. I would argue objectively a USA fly is the closest to a majesty and is a better instrument (better trem, faster neck and heel, lighter, carbon fiber, with piezo).


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## Tuned (Sep 22, 2019)

haven't played a Kiesel but I think Carvin counts, does it not? decently built guitars and a bass that I tried. Not a bad thing there was to say, although I am not a fan of their proprietory pickups.
On the other hand, I owned an EBMM JP7 and was disappointed with all sorts of corner cutting. The build was nice, it sounded great, but the attention to detail was lacking and totally mismatched the price range. The body was glued from planks that hadn't been dried right, so with time it became more and more visible on the back of the body. Someone'd thought using fairly hot humbuckers without any shielding was a good idea (tin foil? yeah right! you wish). The rubber grip rings on the knobs broke all the time, I tried glueing them, it didn't work. I ordered new rings but they cost some ridiculous amount, like $6 apiece? smth like that. The trem arm tension setting hex screw was too short so it would fall inside the body each time I would replace the arm. I may be in the minority, or else there may have been a production flaw but the EBMM Moderm Trem was driving me nuts: it just wouldn't stay in tune for one song (no, not the tuners). I ordered a new bridgeplate and new studs that were installed by a good meticulous luthier. It was a bit better but didn't cure. I don't think basswood is a bad tonewood and the JP sounded fine but I really don't find it proper to charge that much for a basswood non-fancy top solid color bodied guitar. BTW I ordered a big batch of EBMM JP sets of strings for this guitar and those proved inconsistent: with each and every new pack of that the intonation was all over the bridge. The low B string was a trick to intonate
Trying to solve my issues I sumbled across a guy who was struggling with his Majesty. The bridge wasn't working right and the piezo preamp was fooling around. He ordered another but that didn't work. I don't know if he finally got it right.

I sold my EBMM JP7 and bought a MIJ Schecter Japan SD-7-24 that is a noticeably better built guitar at a fraction of cost of the JP. Also, it wasn't really an option I was specifically after, but it has an alder body with a quilt top and a natural wood binding. It even has a matching quit cap on the headstock whereas the EBMM JP7 was just blank that looked ridiculous, taken the gorgeous wine red sparkling 'spotlight whore' body.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 25, 2019)

bzhang9 said:


> That is very subjective though. A majesty is $3k, no doubt high quality and great specs, although you can argue the trem is lacking (vs floyd and edge variants) and some finishes are pretty ugly. The strength of Kiesel is you can pick specs and looks that a majesty can't match either, and will likely be much cheaper. I would argue objectively a USA fly is the closest to a majesty and is a better instrument (better trem, faster neck and heel, lighter, carbon fiber, with piezo).


I did say it was my opinion, but objectively speaking, I would argue spec wise, there is nothing that matches the Majesty, in counter to all of your points which are objectively incorrect to be frank and with no disrespect to you at all ( but better trem? Faster neck? Better heel? And the other aspects you mentioned are honestly negligible like the cork wood and carbon fiber needed for reinforcing the wood, i mean have you played a majesty or are you just trying to find the only similar guitar to compare price wise and spec wise, because thats the only common factor I can see), the majesty is superior in every regard, its trem, its piezo, its build, its construction, its woods, including a “carbon fiber” looking top for anyone interested in such a thing etc.....) so while it is IMHO that you cant/spec a better custom guitar, yes your right, that totally is subjective, and again, i said if you pay enough, I’m sure you can...... 

The other point not to confuse with my opinion, is objectively speaking, I standby by the objective analysis of the majesty as the best mass produced factory stock guitar that has been made to date. And this is again, based on the evolution of an already amazing guitar, and based on other’s analysis of the series. Like they put so much work into each year, and finally the majesty is the culmination but also a TOTAL departure from anything else on the market. So objectively, many argue and have said that the majesty is (arguably) #1, but i was referring more to what it would cost to get something as close to that in a custom guitar, because as you well noted, the only other guitar that has similar specs is a Parker Fly....but to say thats even CLOSE to a majesty, to me, honestly, makes that point moot.

And i think the OP wants to know about quality: the answer is, it doesnt get any better.


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## Andromalia (Sep 25, 2019)

> standby by the objective analysis of the majesty as the best mass produced factory stock guitar that has been made to date.


Well, it *is* a 3500€ guitar, mass produced or not. There aren't a lot of comparison points.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 25, 2019)

Very true. I mean they are pricey, and there even more expensive mass produced guitars (PRS for example), but I think you got my point....also it was again, relative to, getting a majesty for example vs spec’ing a custom Kiesel, and my point was i think the majesty would offer a “better deal” (even if not a “better” guitar), considering price.....again all in relation to the OP question

So its more a (subjective lol) vote for the EBMM, but its really up to the OP in the end what he likes


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## bzhang9 (Sep 25, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> I did say it was my opinion, but objectively speaking, I would argue spec wise, there is nothing that matches the Majesty, in counter to all of your points which are objectively incorrect to be frank and with no disrespect to you at all ( but better trem? Faster neck? Better heel? And the other aspects you mentioned are honestly negligible like the cork wood and carbon fiber needed for reinforcing the wood, i mean have you played a majesty or are you just trying to find the only similar guitar to compare price wise and spec wise, because thats the only common factor I can see), the majesty is superior in every regard, its trem, its piezo, its build, its construction, its woods, including a “carbon fiber” looking top for anyone interested in such a thing etc.....) so while it is IMHO that you cant/spec a better custom guitar, yes your right, that totally is subjective, and again, i said if you pay enough, I’m sure you can......
> 
> The other point not to confuse with my opinion, is objectively speaking, I standby by the objective analysis of the majesty as the best mass produced factory stock guitar that has been made to date. And this is again, based on the evolution of an already amazing guitar, and based on other’s analysis of the series. Like they put so much work into each year, and finally the majesty is the culmination but also a TOTAL departure from anything else on the market. So objectively, many argue and have said that the majesty is (arguably) #1, but i was referring more to what it would cost to get something as close to that in a custom guitar, because as you well noted, the only other guitar that has similar specs is a Parker Fly....but to say thats even CLOSE to a majesty, to me, honestly, makes that point moot.
> 
> And i think the OP wants to know about quality: the answer is, it doesnt get any better.



If you want to talk quality, majesty is a step below USA flys and PRS customs (I've had all of them side by side to compare). The mirror inlays on mine were obviously crooked which is pretty bad for even a cheap import. Design wise they aren't superior to a fly. Flys are lighter, more stable, have a slicker neck heel, and smoother and more stable trem, those points are objective. You make it sound like majesty is untouchable, which makes you sound like a huge fanboy no offense.

don't forget a big chunk of the cost of any JP is going to JPs pockets, so obviously youre not getting all the value of your buck


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## BigViolin (Sep 25, 2019)

Let's compare Ken Parker and Sterling Ball as luthiers. 

Actually no....please...let's not.


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## noise in my mind (Sep 25, 2019)

bzhang9 said:


> If you want to talk quality, majesty is a step below USA flys and PRS customs (I've had all of them side by side to compare). The mirror inlays on mine were obviously crooked which is pretty bad for even a cheap import. Design wise they aren't superior to a fly. Flys are lighter, more stable, have a slicker neck heel, and smoother and more stable trem, those points are objective. You make it sound like majesty is untouchable, which makes you sound like a huge fanboy no offense.
> 
> don't forget a big chunk of the cost of any JP is going to JPs pockets, so obviously youre not getting all the value of your buck



I own a majesty and I agree with you. I played a fly recently and it was awesome. I just can't stand the upper horn of the fly poking me in the chest all the time. The majesty is pretty light and has a great neck though imo. Sidenote* I had to send two majesty's back to musicians friend because of fret issues, and I had to send the 3rd one into music man to have the frets leveled. It's a very common problem with this model because of the painted nut etc.


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## spudmunkey (Sep 25, 2019)

noise in my mind said:


> I own a majesty and I agree with you. I played a fly recently and it was awesome. I just can't stand the upper horn of the fly poking me in the chest all the time.



I never wanted a parker because of that strange upper horn...until I saw the 1st Vernon Reid signature model. Yauza.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 26, 2019)

noise in my mind said:


> I own a majesty and I agree with you. I played a fly recently and it was awesome. I just can't stand the upper horn of the fly poking me in the chest all the time. The majesty is pretty light and has a great neck though imo. Sidenote* I had to send two majesty's back to musicians friend because of fret issues, and I had to send the 3rd one into music man to have the frets leveled. It's a very common problem with this model because of the painted nut etc.


Fair enough...if we are comparing the $5000 7 string Parker to the $3000 Majesty, then objectively, i will concede you have an even/equal comparison. However, I will say not owning either, I prefer the majesty still, however this 3rd return has me wary about quality control issues now....so you’ve opened my mind quite a bit.....Can someone please link me to the 7 string model Parker because I can’t find it myself on the site (there is a Maxxfly but i dont think thats the $5k one you are referring to)

However, to get technically, super objective, the best “electric” guitar ever made is the steinberger GL2T.....yes, even over the majesty (and the parker)

1 piece carbon graphite 
Completely totally ergonomic in the most compact design of a single piece body
trans trem - the most stable and versatile trem on the market
Roland midi pickup - ok, so its not a piezo but you can do other super things with your axe 3 perhaps or controlling/notating in your DAW
Almost completely indestructible and impervious to weather or temperature/humidity changes

Now those were made only during the mid 80’s so finding a mint one for $10k is hard, but IMHO Steinberger (the original from Newburgh) were the best ever.....

But please link me to the 7 string parker, or if theres more than one model, thats fine, I’m very interested now


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## xzacx (Sep 26, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> Fair enough...if we are comparing the $5000 7 string Parker to the $3000 Majesty, then objectively, i will concede you have an even/equal comparison. However, I will say not owning either, I prefer the majesty still, however this 3rd return has me wary about quality control issues now....so you’ve opened my mind quite a bit.....Can someone please link me to the 7 string model Parker because I can’t find it myself on the site (there is a Maxxfly but i dont think thats the $5k one you are referring to)
> 
> However, to get technically, super objective, the best “electric” guitar ever made is the steinberger GL2T.....yes, even over the majesty (and the parker)
> 
> ...



There's only a handful of Parker 7s out there, and they aren't being made anymore, period, regardless of number of strings. Which made that an odd comparison to bring up.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 26, 2019)

xzacx said:


> There's only a handful of Parker 7s out there, and they aren't being made anymore, period, regardless of number of strings. Which made that an odd comparison to bring up.


To be fair my friend, it wasnt me who made that comparison. So you have a very good point as well...And while I am on the EBMM vote, like I said, I really wished there was a mass produced 7 string parker to try or see...because again, if that’s the case as you say, the point again, is moot.....customs/semi customs aren’t what I was referring to. I meant stock out of the machine line...or whatever...but limited handmade editions arent the same


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## xzacx (Sep 26, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> To be fair my friend, it wasnt me who made that comparison. So you have a very good point as well...And while I am on the EBMM vote, like I said, I really wished there was a mass produced 7 string parker to try or see...because again, if that’s the case as you say, the point again, is moot.....customs/semi customs aren’t what I was referring to. I meant stock out of the machine line...or whatever...but limited handmade editions arent the same



Sorry man that wasn’t directed at you, I just didn’t get why the dude brought those up since it’s not a very realistic option or competitor to EBMM. It’s a shame though, because they are amazing guitars imo—great balance of innovation and still looking cool. Some of the later-era custom shops utilized more traditional tops materials and finishes were really phenomenal looking too.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 26, 2019)

I’m with you on that. It’s not realistic, when you put it in that perspective, besides the semi custom build, if its that rare to even find an example of , i mean thats just proving my point that you cant beat a majesty (on the spectrum of guitars). Thats full on custom, the Parker 7 string, and so thats what i meant, MAYBE for double you can get something close or “better” for/to you, but I think the majesty wins for overall value, specs, quality and price (esp if you get it used lol)....id love a rare $5k parker, but i also would just as much rather have an EBMM majesty (although, again, those QC issues are something i havent heard of and i must start to investigate...i hope its isolated)


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## jephjacques (Sep 27, 2019)

Kiesels are fine, I've got a whole bunch of EBMMs and they're all fine too. There's no such thing as a "best" guitar. Just buy whichever looks cool to you.


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## bzhang9 (Sep 27, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> I’m with you on that. It’s not realistic, when you put it in that perspective, besides the semi custom build, if its that rare to even find an example of , i mean thats just proving my point that you cant beat a majesty (on the spectrum of guitars). Thats full on custom, the Parker 7 string, and so thats what i meant, MAYBE for double you can get something close or “better” for/to you, but I think the majesty wins for overall value, specs, quality and price (esp if you get it used lol)....id love a rare $5k parker, but i also would just as much rather have an EBMM majesty (although, again, those QC issues are something i havent heard of and i must start to investigate...i hope its isolated)



No you don't need to pay double to get EBMM quality or beat a majesty... everyone knows that except petrucci fan boys. Similar priced guitars with similar or better quality: PRS, J customs, suhr, aristides, list goes on and on... even kiesel probably has less QC issues and better value


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 28, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> Kiesels are fine, I've got a whole bunch of EBMMs and they're all fine too. There's no such thing as a "best" guitar. Just buy whichever looks cool to you.


 That’s also true. I was only giving my opinion to the OP, get whatever you like, as I also said....its up to the OP



bzhang9 said:


> No you don't need to pay double to get EBMM quality or beat a majesty... everyone knows that except petrucci fan boys. Similar priced guitars with similar or better quality: PRS, J customs, suhr, aristides, list goes on and on... even kiesel probably has less QC issues and better value


At this juncture, you’ve gone completely off base. Nothing BEATS a majesty, as I said, in my objective view the Steinberger trumps all, but as of this time, if you can show me a guitar of equal quality, as it does NOT get better than a majesty (there is no better quality than a majesty, sorry, but I dont care about JP or DT, but I know guitars, and majesty’s are as good as it gets....you can list dozens of equal quality).....but Ill just close with giving the OP my vote for EBMM because every JP I’ve played was awesome, but the majesty is simply incredible....IIRC Vai even said JP had the most “interesting” guitar in a fairly recent video interview.....so that speaks for itself. No reason to call me a fanboy of anything, when I am just trying to give the OP my 2 cents and being honest...no harm in that

(If you can link me to anything of equal value and quality, I’d love to see such a 7 string....that way I know what to save for next, but unless you can, I’m waiting for a [possibly used] majesty 7


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## narad (Sep 28, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> At this juncture, you’ve gone completely off base. Nothing BEATS a majesty, as I said, in my objective view the Steinberger trumps all, but as of this time, if you can show me a guitar of equal quality, as it does NOT get better than a majesty (there is no better quality than a majesty, sorry, but I dont care about JP or DT, but I know guitars, and majesty’s are as good as it gets....you can list dozens of equal quality).....but Ill just close with giving the OP my vote for EBMM because every JP I’ve played was awesome, but the majesty is simply incredible....IIRC Vai even said JP had the most “interesting” guitar in a fairly recent video interview.....so that speaks for itself. No reason to call me a fanboy of anything, when I am just trying to give the OP my 2 cents and being honest...no harm in that



You don't have an objective view, you have a subjective view. So of course when you try to pass off the Majesty as as-good-as-it-gets objectively, you come across as a fanboy. If I agreed, I'd own one. But my general sense of aesthetics get in the way.


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## Andromalia (Sep 28, 2019)

I have an artisan on the radar, because I'm pretty impressed by the other EBMM guitar I own. But I'm certainly not going to label my appreciation of the trem on the Luke as "objective" lol.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Sep 28, 2019)

I think people might think about the OP, who wanted to know about the 2 brands. Kiesel sounds like its just as good quality from the members who know their guitars here, and thats why I’m not being facetious when asking for a mass production (non-custom) guitar with similar specs, of equal quality, and similar price range... The only guitar I could think of that is somewhat similar is the discontinued Ibanez RG2027x, but what other guitar out there competes with a majesty off the rack? If such a brand/model exists, I NEED to try it. Otherwise, I am going to sound like a fanboy lol

The point has been made clearly: either way, the choice is a good one, with whatever the OP wants....Kiesel or EBMM, you cant lose.

(PS Why is it subjective to give a specsheet and value comparison when I can’t find another 7 string that compares, and no one has linked me yet, so please do.... IMHO because of ALL the features and specs, besides quality, because it originally meant to compare Kiesel and EBMM, which I said, subjectively either is great, let the OP pick, right?....but objectively, the best electric guitar “By design” is the discontinued Steinberger, because of its specs, look it up if you dont want to take my opinion for it, but there are dozens of articles and info about it, like when their crazy commercials from the 80’s showing its indestructible and I could never afford one and they are incredibly hard to find, which is why i only mentioned it in passing and not as actually a “contender”....you know what forget I mentioned it now lol)


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## MoonJelly (Sep 28, 2019)

So glad I found this thread, right as it's about to go off the rails.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 28, 2019)

MoonJelly said:


> So glad I found this thread, right as it's about to go off the rails.



join dates check out. nothing like watching things get crazy


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## jephjacques (Sep 28, 2019)

PoE you need to calm down man, I've got two Majesties and they're great but they're not THAT great


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## gunshow86de (Sep 28, 2019)

My current number one is a JPX7, and the trem post studs were off center in the cavity when I got it (second hand). I had to have a tech "dowel" the old holes and relocate. Now it sounds and plays perfectly.

I've had the original JP7 model and an Axis Super Sport new. I've had a Kiesel/Carvin Holdsworth and a Kiesel bass, would say they were about on par with the Musicman guitars. Like other folks have said, I don't think either company is going to be vastly better quality. The only guitars I've had where you could really tell there was a higher quality/attention to detail were the Tom Anderson and KxK I used to own.


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## jarledge (Sep 28, 2019)

I have to agree with most everyone else. Quality wise I'd say they are pretty similar. Both are great. I like that I can do way more customization to the Kiesel for the same cost as the EBMM. You can even order the JP dimarzios and send them in to be installed by Kiesel. For even a used JP model I can get a pretty awesome custom Kiesel. They are different guitars though. I'd say you would probably want to go with the Aries model Kiesel as maybe the most comparable to the JP. I am not saying the EBMM JPs are bad, they just cost more, but they do hold their value better. Again, like everyone else said, it just depends on what you are going for and what is more important to you.


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## gggrax (Sep 28, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> How does Kiesel stack up to Ernie Ball Music man in terms of build quality and over all fit and finish. Really considering both brands but over all build quality will be a big deciding factor.
> 
> I am unable to try a Kiesel and will try a Jp15 7 string soonish. The ebmm guitars look flawless and so ergonomic, wondering if the kiesel dc700x would stack up.



I have the dc700x, the Carvin version of it. It is an excellent guitar. I customized it exactly as I wanted it, with the various woods for tone, a custom truss rod cover with my name on it, Sperzel locking tuners, dragon skin blue-to-green finish, abalone insets, strap-locks. I didn't have to mod it to get the tuners and strap-locks. It is a fine sounding guitar, with fine detailing. If I was to buy it again I would get the active electronics. The three pickups are really expressive and provide a wide spectrum of sounds. I hope to spend enough time with it; it can take the best playing you've got and make you happy you've done it. And since it is custom, then it is yours.


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## bmth4111 (Sep 30, 2019)

Thanks every for the response. Made my choice a little harder haha. Really thought the ebmm would be much better quality but that appears not to be the case. 

Will be trying a jp12 somewhat soon. Don't have much experience on a 20 radius so I'm intrigued.

The ebmm jp12 and Jp15 necks I'm guessing would be much thinner than even the kiesel thinner option?


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Oct 1, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> PoE you need to calm down man, I've got two Majesties and they're great but they're not THAT great


You own 2 $3500 guitars....as in you spent close to $7k on the same guitars....but they’re not THAT great - odd

Anyway, I stand by what I said, that is the majesty is the best guitar you can get off the rack and its as good as ANY custom out there, but most importantly @bmth4111 have you tried them?

I mean this is really about what you want in the end....  That is what really made me a big beleiver in EBMM as THE premier [non-custom] series and as you can see, there seems to be a lot of conflict, where people have said its as good as it gets and others say they are hyped. [as I still have yet to be linked to another 7 string that compares off the rack....id also like to see a quality custom guitar that is spec’ed as good for $3k but thats not gonna happen either]

Try em out man....see what you like. I dont know where to try a Kiesel, maybe another member close to you might let you check it out ??? Otherwise go with a sure thing IMHO, you literally cant beat a majesty (especially for $2500, which i just happened to find now and thought id link you, hope it helps https://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/ernie-ball-music-man-john-petrucci-majesty-7-string-electric-guitar/l25496000001000?pfm=item_page.rrCompare|ClickEV)

Good luck dude


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 1, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> You own 2 $3500 guitars....as in you spent close to $7k on the same guitars....but they’re not THAT great - odd
> 
> Anyway, I stand by what I said, that is the majesty is the best guitar you can get off the rack and its as good as ANY custom out there, but most importantly @bmth4111 have you tried them?
> 
> ...




when you got 30k in guitars they can’t all be 1st place winners buddy.


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## jephjacques (Oct 1, 2019)

yeah if you saw my guitar collection you would understand


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## bzhang9 (Oct 1, 2019)

POE is taking fanboy to a whole new level...

Obviously you can't spec out a custom or find a production to be exactly like a majesty, just like you can't do that for other unique guitars like a fly, aristides, strandbergs etc.

Point is majestys are good quality, nice specs, kind of overpriced guitars that are a step lower in quality and QC than other top tier production and customs. That is OBJECTIVE, just look at all the hardware that rubs off and looks like crap after light use. The tops they use are also subpar for $3k instruments. The inlays are sadly inconsistent and subpar compared to say PRS core and J customs. If you think they are the best thing ever that is SUBJECTIVE.


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## ramses (Oct 1, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, probably about even said and done. I've owned both and wouldn't really say one is head and shoulders above the other.
> 
> Really it's going to come down to player preference.



I own Carvin (just pre-Kiesel) and have played Ernie Ball. So I can vouch for Max's statement. Player's preference has the last word.


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## Avedas (Oct 1, 2019)

My main issue with the Majesty (beyond the aesthetics) is it completely goes against the KISS principle and gains next to nothing for it. There are so many added points of failure with the piezo, boost, weird nut etc. that I personally think aren't very valuable. It would be a better (and much cheaper) guitar without any of that garbage and just a simple 2 humbucker setup with a 3 or 5 way switch. Those extra features have been mostly nothing but sources of frustration for the people I know who owned them. Simple systems almost always work better and are easier to maintain.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 1, 2019)

Avedas said:


> My main issue with the Majesty (beyond the aesthetics) is it completely goes against the KISS principle and gains next to nothing for it. There are so many added points of failure with the piezo, boost, weird nut etc. that I personally think aren't very valuable. It would be a better (and much cheaper) guitar without any of that garbage and just a simple 2 humbucker setup with a 3 or 5 way switch. Those extra features have been mostly nothing but sources of frustration for the people I know who owned them. Simple systems almost always work better and are easier to maintain.



RIP Unloaded JPs.


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## Vyn (Oct 2, 2019)

Avedas said:


> My main issue with the Majesty (beyond the aesthetics) is it completely goes against the KISS principle and gains next to nothing for it. There are so many added points of failure with the piezo, boost, weird nut etc. that I personally think aren't very valuable. It would be a better (and much cheaper) guitar without any of that garbage and just a simple 2 humbucker setup with a 3 or 5 way switch. Those extra features have been mostly nothing but sources of frustration for the people I know who owned them. Simple systems almost always work better and are easier to maintain.



Pretty much this. The only reason I would consider a Majesty is if I was after something with a piezo system, otherwise any other reputable US/Japan guitar manufacturer is a better option. Unless you really really want JP and Ernie Ball written on the guitar then go for it.


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## bmth4111 (Oct 2, 2019)

Damn why couldn't they have just made the Jp15 7 eminence purple without that ugly white binding... And match the headstock. Even just without the binding I would have baught lol. 

I always find guitars that are almost perfect but companies end up adding unnecessary and distasteful specs.


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## Tuned (Oct 2, 2019)

/


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## Tuned (Oct 2, 2019)

Avedas said:


> It would be a better (and much cheaper) guitar without any of that garbage and just a simple 2 humbucker setup with a 3 or 5 way switch. Those extra features have been mostly nothing but sources of frustration for the people I know who owned them. Simple systems almost always work better and are easier to maintain.





MaxOfMetal said:


> RIP Unloaded JPs.



well mine was an unloaded, but


Tuned said:


> On the other hand, I owned an EBMM JP7 and was disappointed with all sorts of corner cutting. The build was nice, it sounded great, but the attention to detail was lacking and totally mismatched the price range.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 2, 2019)

Tuned said:


> well mine was an unloaded, but



How bad was it? Those were like $1200 new. 

Not saying they can't push out some dodgy stuff sometimes. Remember those BFRs with the fucked up necks and frets?


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## Vyn (Oct 2, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> How bad was it? Those were like $1200 new.
> 
> Not saying they can't push out some dodgy stuff sometimes. Remember those BFRs with the fucked up necks and frets?



How the fuck did a dodgy BFR let alone multiple dodgy BFRs leave the factory? Was QC away, intoxicated or both that day?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 2, 2019)

Vyn said:


> How the fuck did a dodgy BFR let alone multiple dodgy BFRs leave the factory? Was QC away, intoxicated or both that day?



This is when they decided to make the BFR production instead of limited edition, so they pushed a ton out as fast as they could and that resulted in some issues.

If I remember correctly they wound up rebuilding them for folks who got duds.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Oct 2, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> yeah if you saw my guitar collection you would understand


 Really, you have a $30k collection? That’s rad. What is your biggest or most expensive piece if you dont mind me asking, as I dont know anyone with anything like that!



bzhang9 said:


> POE is taking fanboy to a whole new level...
> 
> Obviously you can't spec out a custom or find a production to be exactly like a majesty, just like you can't do that for other unique guitars like a fly, aristides, strandbergs etc.
> 
> Point is majestys are good quality, nice specs, kind of overpriced guitars that are a step lower in quality and QC than other top tier production and customs. That is OBJECTIVE, just look at all the hardware that rubs off and looks like crap after light use. The tops they use are also subpar for $3k instruments. The inlays are sadly inconsistent and subpar compared to say PRS core and J customs. If you think they are the best thing ever that is SUBJECTIVE.



You just proved my point, you can NOT spec a comparable guitar of equal value, quality, or features, especially when i linked the current sale price at $2500....if i had $2500 i would buy a majesty. Does that make me a fanboy? No, rather, It makes me a potential customer. [for the record, the best thing ever is the steinberger from the 1980’s, not the majesty, especially if the QC has some issues I’m not aware of lol]



MaxOfMetal said:


> This is when they decided to make the BFR production instead of limited edition, so they pushed a ton out as fast as they could and that resulted in some issues.
> 
> If I remember correctly they wound up rebuilding them for folks who got duds.


 Is that what BFR stood for?

Ill admit, i obviously missed something about a bad batch of EBMM, but what exactly happened? They sold a bunch of bad majesty and did a recall? And the BFR stands for the “Corrected” version?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 2, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> Is that what BFR stood for?
> 
> Ill admit, i obviously missed something about a bad batch of EBMM, but what exactly happened? They sold a bunch of bad majesty and did a recall? And the BFR stands for the “Corrected” version?



Ball Family Reserve 

They were originally released as limited edition runs, but were popular enough to become regular production models.

They were also supposed to be "the best of the best" as far as EBMM quality goes. The first few batches really were excellent, but when they decided to make a bunch more of them the quality wound up dropping to regular EBMM levels, so still really really good, just not exceptional. Unfortunately, some were even botched when trying to up production capacity.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Oct 2, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Ball Family Reserve
> 
> They were originally released as limited edition runs, but were popular enough to become regular production models.
> 
> They were also supposed to be "the best of the best" as far as EBMM quality goes. The first few batches really were excellent, but when they decided to make a bunch more of them the quality wound up dropping to regular EBMM levels, so still really really good, just not exceptional. Unfortunately, some were even botched when trying to up production capacity.


I do hope that is isolated. Do you think that majesty is on sale for $2500 as one of the (fixed) bunk models? I mean a majesty for $2500 is a steal... unless I’m missing something again lol, have you seen the musicians friend link Max?


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## jephjacques (Oct 2, 2019)

Avedas said:


> My main issue with the Majesty (beyond the aesthetics) is it completely goes against the KISS principle and gains next to nothing for it. There are so many added points of failure with the piezo, boost, weird nut etc. that I personally think aren't very valuable. It would be a better (and much cheaper) guitar without any of that garbage and just a simple 2 humbucker setup with a 3 or 5 way switch. Those extra features have been mostly nothing but sources of frustration for the people I know who owned them. Simple systems almost always work better and are easier to maintain.



I mean, it's what Petrucci wants, and it obviously sells well enough that they haven't felt the need to mess with the formula much. I've got a bunch of various JPs and haven't run into any maintenance issues with the parts you mention. Maybe I've been lucky! I don't use the piezo much but it sounds good, and the boost is really handy.

The one thing they do with the Majesties that I think is a bad idea long-term is the finish goes over the nut on the sides. This makes it seamless, which I guess looks and feels cool, but god help you if you ever need it replaced.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 2, 2019)

Politics of Ecstasy said:


> I do hope that is isolated. Do you think that majesty is on sale for $2500 as one of the (fixed) bunk models? I mean a majesty for $2500 is a steal... unless I’m missing something again lol, have you seen the musicians friend link Max?



I think the Majesty models, overall, have been pretty darn good. Yeah the early runs had switching problems and you still hear about finish issues and such, they're definitely not perfect, but if you want a "different" super Strat with Piezo and trem, especially in a 7, it's pretty much the only option that doesn't require a wait time. 

But, since I don't really need Piezo, it's not really on my short list of guitars to buy. 

For $3500 I could get another Suhr (mostly) or hunt down a cool used piece and for $2500 I'd rather grab an old school JP7. All my personal preference though.


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## jephjacques (Oct 2, 2019)

I remember when you could get a nice Suhr new for less than $3500...good times, man....


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 2, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> I remember when you could get a nice Suhr new for less than $3500...good times, man....



If "nice" means figured exotics, yeah, those days are long gone. The base price on everything is still below $3500, except for the Modern Carved Top Set Neck at $4k.

An M7 is still $3k base, and almost all 6s are under $2900.

Talk to Matt's Music, if there's something already in progress you can sometimes shave some cash off the top.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 2, 2019)

Avedas said:


> My main issue with the Majesty (beyond the aesthetics) is it completely goes against the KISS principle and gains next to nothing for it. There are so many added points of failure with the piezo, boost, weird nut etc. that I personally think aren't very valuable. It would be a better (and much cheaper) guitar without any of that garbage and just a simple 2 humbucker setup with a 3 or 5 way switch. Those extra features have been mostly nothing but sources of frustration for the people I know who owned them. Simple systems almost always work better and are easier to maintain.



I dunno man the only reason I like the majesty is because of all the fancy shit in it. 
Without any of that stuff it’s just a neckthrough guitar.


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## fps (Oct 2, 2019)

Love my Carvin. The MusicMan JP I played, however, played itself, it was crazy. I would love to try a 7 string version out for a longer time at some point.


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## mlp187 (Oct 2, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> I mean, it's what Petrucci wants, and it obviously sells well enough that they haven't felt the need to mess with the formula much. I've got a bunch of various JPs and haven't run into any maintenance issues with the parts you mention. Maybe I've been lucky! I don't use the piezo much but it sounds good, and the boost is really handy.
> 
> The one thing they do with the Majesties that I think is a bad idea long-term is the finish goes over the nut on the sides. This makes it seamless, which I guess looks and feels cool, but god help you if you ever need it replaced.


The nut was an issue for me. So excited to get my sparkly BFR and the fretboard shrunk, causing delamination at the nut, and in turn the nut separating from the fretboard. EBMM went above and beyond to fix it, and I still absolutely love my guitar, bit that is a design flaw I don't understand.


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## Tuned (Oct 3, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> How bad was it? Those were like $1200 new. Not saying they can't push out some dodgy stuff sometimes. Remember those BFRs with the fucked up necks and frets?


Well the neck was great, I couldn't attest to the quality of the original fretwork as I bought it preowned from the US. I guess I should've known better since I bought it for $1300 preowned plus S+H over the pond.

How exactly bad was it?

- the body was obviously built from planks that hadn't been dried right. Within months, the wood moved so much as I would expect it to do in years, raising parts and showing seams under the finish, and that went on;

- the bridge was just not working right. It couldn't stay in tune for one song, so I had to tune in literally after every song. Imagine my playing gigs. Its not being a double locking tremolo, every time a string went out of tune, ALL other strings went of tune. I checked the nut, the tuners (actually wrote to Schaller and they guided me through a whole checking procedure). It was the bridge;

- there were obvious holes from a tremol-no which lead me to understanding that the previous owner had had the same troubles and couldn't solve them;

- I then contacted EBMM and they told me to contact the national dealer. I understand this is their policy and I would be fine with that, if the total time to get the parts wouldn't have taken over a year (and it did). I finally got a new bridgeplate and studs, only EBMM told me I had to buy 6 studs and then handpick the best pair. It would've been ok with me, but 2 things left me wondering: a) how come a regular user can make a better job picking the right match if EBMM theirselves can't, given their experience, expertise, specialized machinery and (probably) high standards; b) why do I have to pay for all the 6 studs if EBMM don't know the best 2 to have the job done right;

- the handpicked studs and bridge with the new bridgeplate were then installed by the best and most meticulous luthier and builder I knew, but it didn't cure the problem. The bridge just couldn't stay in tune. This lead me to the conclusion there must have been a production fault;

- there was no shielding under the pickups whatsoever, and a thin layer of graphite spraypaint in the controls cavity. I think this isn't a very good idea for a model equipped with fairly hot humbuckers and implying metal music. Indeed, the guitar was quite noisy. It had also been the conclusion of the previous owner as he drilled an extra hole and installed a killswitch. My decision was probably better, I had copper foil installed everywhere, and the guitar then was dead silent. Why hadn't that been done in the factory?;

- I like the idea of how the trem bar tension is supposed to be set on the JP, but something went wrong with the production. The trem bar was always too loose so it couldn't allow for gentle precise vibratos, there was always a free play and then a 'click' when it actually began to work. Also, when set loose, the bar wasn't where I needed it to stay. I had to tighten the tension setting hex screw to its extreme to fix that, BUT the hex screw was cut just too short so it would fall inside the cavity (or elsewhere!) every other time I replaced the bar. It was also cut too short to provide enough friction to stay in the threading so it went loose every now and then. I failed to find a sound replacement of it;

- I don't know what exactly the original pots are, but the previous owner replaced those with CTS pots (the original ones came with the guitar too). I think CTS is something you'd expect stock on a guitar of this level (or what it tries to seem to be);

- the ribbed rubber grip rings on the knobs are a nice touch but they break all the time. The previous owner had known that as the guitar cam with an extra ring. I also wanted to order 3 too but I refused when I found the price: they were ridiculosly priced, I can't remember exactly now but, like, $6 apiece? Thankfully to EBMM, they included them in my order for free, I appreciated the gesture very much.

- probably nitpicking but the pickup selector was just too stiff. It worked right, but you couldn't switch it while shredding if you know what I mean; it needed strength.

***
It may sound as if I hated the guitar but I didn't. I liked the sound very much, the neck was super comfortable to my hands, visually the guitar appealed to me too. I weighed the idea of keeping it, probably upgrading it with an OFR. But for all the expence, the result being a basswood-bodied guitar with a decent Floyd, given I can get almost any popular MIJ Ibanez for quite less in this country... It just wasn't worth it.


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## bmth4111 (Oct 3, 2019)

I wonder what's the likelyhood of ebmm making another jp with a blank fret board in the near future. Or by this upcoming namm 2020.


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## Politics of Ecstasy (Oct 3, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> I wonder what's the likelyhood of ebmm making another jp with a blank fret board in the near future. Or by this upcoming namm 2020.


You know, I did a lot of reading on YouTube watching about this and it seems to be a very black and white issue: meaning, i’ve Only seen catastrophes OR absolutely flawless reviews so i guess QC may be an issue with the “newer” company(?), I don’t know, I’m obviously less knowledgeable about this issue than other members so I definitely heed their warning......

However, after reading @bmth4111 your desires and two things stuck out to me:
-black fretboard (it has little inlays but they seem smaller than the other shields )
-20” radius

That sounds like the JP XI 7 to me, and that might be a great solution if it is of the BFR, or if I understood Max correctly, you’d want to look for a BFR rather than a standard model for better assurance there wont be QC issues, although I haven’t seen a bad thing about the XI FWIW (its also $2700 new or under 2k used)


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## Avedas (Oct 3, 2019)

bmth4111 said:


> I wonder what's the likelyhood of ebmm making another jp with a blank fret board in the near future. Or by this upcoming namm 2020.


Probably not too bad. They'll need something to show off next year's signature pickups.


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## jephjacques (Oct 3, 2019)

The next petrucci set will be so dark you’ll have to play with a wah pedal cocked all the way


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## MoonJelly (Oct 3, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> The next petrucci set will be so dark you’ll have to play with a wah pedal cocked all the way


Maybe drop them into a solid marble body to bring some treble back in. If I recall Fender's R&D did this once in the early 90s searching for the ultimate sustain. It had to be mounted on a pedestal (weighed 50 lbs plus) and it was so shrill people suffered from hearing loss.


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## jephjacques (Oct 3, 2019)

Petrucci is pretty swole, I could see it happening


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## gunshow86de (Oct 3, 2019)

jephjacques said:


> The next petrucci set will be so dark you’ll have to play with a wah pedal cocked all the way



Just remember to treat them with ultra-orange lights to prevent them from melting.


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## metalstrike (Oct 5, 2019)

Between the two, I much prefer EBMM. My JP12 and Majesty are both fantastic and have had no serious issues. I did have a Carvin DC700 7 string which was cool but kind of dull sounding and playing. Some of that was my fault choosing less than ideal specs. For my personal preference and play style, I still haven’t found production guitars more comfortable/playable than the two Music Man guitars I own and I’ve tried out quite a bit of stuff.

When I’m shopping for a new guitar, my order of importance goes:

1. Playability
2. Build/Component Quality
3. Sound

I have relatively large hands (not quite Vai or Gilbert sized!) and play a lot in the upper registers so fret access is vital and subpar access has been a dealbreaker in me owning some otherwise very nice guitars. I would love to own a PRS Custom 24 or Suhr Modern but not when they get in my way of playing. I will not fight with playing a guitar not matter how cool or high quality it is.

Since Carvin became Kiesel they have just become less interesting to me. I know they can and have built some great guitars but after hearing some of the horror stories about them, I’m done with them. Experiencing some attitude from one of their associates at their showroom didn’t help either.

That being said, EBMM hasn’t been perfect either. I’ve ordered a JP15 when they first came out and it arrived with the piezo system DOA. I’ve seen other Majesties in stores with finish issues and piezo level controls being badly misaligned in the control cavity. My Majesty bridge is half discolored because of some non toxic paint being required in California or something along those lines.

So in the end, if you buy new make sure you can either test the guitar you want in person or buy from somewhere with a good return policy if you’re buying online. If you decide to go with Kiesel, I’d advise against any options that will void your return policy.

Good luck!


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## bmth4111 (Oct 12, 2019)

Holy shit I finally played the teal Jp15 7. The build quality and playability was so smooth.
The fretboard width was very slim (almost like a wide 6 haha) . One of the most narrow 7s I've played. Also the neck Finnish is so silky!! The neck was Alot slimmer than I had expected but felt great. 

That ebmm bridge is very comfy, soo much smoother on the palm than my Floyd. 

Looks like I'll be getting a ernie ball in the near future. Probably wait until these prices decrease some when the new 2020 models come out!


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