# The "tightest" metal amp



## 155 (Nov 9, 2009)

well what is it?, and dont even bother saying rectos.....I want somthing to hold together on the low end with the lowest of frequencies??? nevermind 5150s either


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## Wolfenstein (Nov 9, 2009)

ENGL Invader?


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## Gamba (Nov 9, 2009)

rivera kr7?


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## TMM (Nov 9, 2009)

Something by Engl, for sure. Arguments could be made for a couple of their higher-end models, IMO.


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## Sepultorture (Nov 9, 2009)

tight, ENGL for sure, VHT/Fryette (the UL i KNOW is tight), possibly even Diezel, but i can't say for sure

so UL

or anything Engl


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## 155 (Nov 9, 2009)

how is the fireball all the clips and vids on youtube really suck?


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## Wolfenstein (Nov 10, 2009)

155 said:


> how is the fireball all the clips and vids on youtube really suck?


 
I know Micheal Romeo uses a Powerball and a Fireball , think the secret to alot of killer tones is running a stereo signal through 2 independantly EQ'd Amps.

You should experiment with how different amps work when you run them in stereo as alot of the "tight" sounds you hear are often Layered in the studio or Modelled with things like Axe-Fx Units.


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## Harry (Nov 10, 2009)

What tuning are you using, out of interest?


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## iondestroyer1527 (Nov 10, 2009)

fireballs do NOT suck...i have played one and compared to my 6505+ it was godly...the response is something i've only heard in a solid state amp and the gain that i normally have all the way up was at about 1 o'clock.they cut very well and do not break up at high volumes at only 60 watts.they're THAT good and they also make a 100w model now... play one is all i can say! find one and play it
p.s. be prepared to clean up your playing because you'll start noticing every mistake you make! but once you get as tight as you can be arppeggios, intricate riffing, etc become so crisp and distinct it will make you sick.


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## Wolfenstein (Nov 10, 2009)

iondestroyer1527 said:


> fireballs do NOT suck...i have played one and compared to my 6505+ it was godly...the response is something i've only heard in a solid state amp and the gain that i normally have all the way up was at about 1 o'clock.they cut very well and do not break up at high volumes at only 60 watts.they're THAT good and they also make a 100w model now... play one is all i can say! find one and play it


 
I think he meant the video's of the amp sucked. Not the actual amp itself?


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## WarriorOfMetal (Nov 10, 2009)

Boosted VHT/Fryette. Zimbloth once commented that my D60 was too tight/stiff for his taste, and he was used to a boosted UL at the time


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## maliciousteve (Nov 10, 2009)

Randall T2, doesn't even need a boost.
Diezel VH4
ENGL Savage
VHT/Fryette Deliverence/Pitbull Ultra Lead
Mesa Mark IV
Randall V2 Archetype


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## TomAwesome (Nov 10, 2009)

I'd say Engl, Fryette, and solid state.


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## loktide (Nov 10, 2009)

the VH4 is the tightest and clearest amp i've played.


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## Speedy (Nov 10, 2009)

VHT/Fryette Ultra Lead and Deliverance. I've heard that Diezel VH4 would be tight too.

ENGL aren't that tight. They are very compressed, what is a different thing. I've owned Fireball and Savage, and tested the Steve Morse Sig. Don't know about Invader, but I've told it is not as compressed and tight as the "heavier" ones. SE is, as I've heard, very compressed.

If the thread starter means tightness as the response of the playing, or very big chunging, they are different things. The last one is compression and low frequensies. Ultra Lead is tight, not compressed, but it chugs like hell. It is because the amp responds very well into anything that the player does.


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## loktide (Nov 10, 2009)

Speedy said:


> VHT/Fryette Ultra Lead and Deliverance. I've heard that Diezel VH4 would be tight too.
> 
> ENGL aren't that tight. They are very compressed, what is a different thing. I've owned Fireball and Savage, and tested the Steve Morse Sig. Don't know about Invader, but I've told it is not as compressed and tight as the "heavier" ones. SE is, as I've heard, very compressed.
> 
> If the thread starter means tightness as the response of the playing, or very big chunging, they are different things. The last one is compression and low frequensies. Ultra Lead is tight, not compressed, but it chugs like hell. It is because the amp responds very well into anything that the player does.



i agree with this post. 

my experience with ENGLs is that the SE is indeed VERY compressed and saturated like the powerball, whereas the invader is less 'ENGL sounding' (less compression and OTT saturation)

i haven't played an ultra-lead so far, but the sig:x was also very tight but more in the lines of the earlier mesa line (studio .22, caliber .50, etc...)


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## Speedy (Nov 10, 2009)

loktide said:


> i agree with this post.
> 
> my experience with ENGLs is that the SE is indeed VERY compressed and saturated like the powerball, whereas the invader is less 'ENGL sounding' (less compression and OTT saturation)
> 
> i haven't played an ultra-lead so far, but the sig:x was also very tight but more in the lines of the earlier mesa line (studio .22, caliber .50, etc...)



SIg X isn't as tight as the Ultra Lead. It is something quite close, but still not as tight. The great thing about UL's is that there is no charasteristic you can't cut away.  But yeah.. They are a bit towards USA in the tone.


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## onefingersweep (Nov 10, 2009)

ENGL are extremely tight, I think they are as tight as Fryette but the thing is they don't have as good definition, stringseparation and therefore they are muddier. But definitely as tight. I find them best for singlenote riffing. Are you going to play both singlenote riffing and alot of big chords Fryette is definitely the best option, Pitbull and Deliverance. Diezel VH4 is also good but way to "clean" I think. I think the Pitbulls have the best stringdefinition of all hi gain amps out there.


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## petereanima (Nov 10, 2009)

VHT/Fryette Pitbull UL 
Diezel VH4


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## CentaurPorn (Nov 10, 2009)

Agreed. My Fryette is the tightest amp I have ever played.


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## Speedy (Nov 10, 2009)

onefingersweep said:


> ENGL are extremely tight, I think they are as tight as Fryette but the thing is they don't have as good definition, stringseparation and therefore they are muddier. But definitely as tight. I find them best for singlenote riffing. Are you going to play both singlenote riffing and alot of big chords Fryette is definitely the best option, Pitbull and Deliverance. Diezel VH4 is also good but way to "clean" I think. I think the Pitbulls have the best stringdefinition of all hi gain amps out there.



What ENGL are you talking about? I think here Savage is defined the tightest ENGL, and I have owned one. And now I own an Ultra Lead. And Savage is nowhere near in tightness with the Ultra Lead.

Earlier, I talked about the difference between being compressed and tight. Compression decreases definition and articulation. I think people think ENGL's are tight, but people mix tightness to compressed sound. Like I said, big chunga isn't a synonyme to tight. 

ENGL's are great for one note things, but man.. you should try the UL.


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## Nick (Nov 10, 2009)

iondestroyer1527 said:


> fireballs do NOT suck...i have played one and compared to my 6505+ it was godly...the response is something i've only heard in a solid state amp and *the gain that i normally have all the way up was at about 1 o'clock*.they cut very well and do not break up at high volumes at only 60 watts.they're THAT good and they also make a 100w model now... play one is all i can say! find one and play it
> p.s. be prepared to clean up your playing because you'll start noticing every mistake you make! but once you get as tight as you can be arppeggios, intricate riffing, etc become so crisp and distinct it will make you sick.



i found the fireball to be totally insane as far as the amount of gain it had and found little reason to run it above about 9 oclock.

what amp do you normally have the gain all the way up on?

do you play in a black metal band?

i would deffinetly recommend VHT (fryette) they have great low end deffinition and stacks of usable gain.

id also include a randall T2 iv never played one myself but i remember seeing some guy from an English DM band using one and his tone could have cut you in half.


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## shanejohnson02 (Nov 10, 2009)

I have personally played the following (as in, ACTUALLY played on, not just listened to someone):
Marshall DSL 100
Marshall JVM
Marshall JMP-1 / power amp setup
Mesa Recs (single, dual, and triple)
Mesa Roadster
Mesa Mark IIC+ / Mark IV
VHT Pitbull UL
Randall RM100 (My personal favorite amp)
Randall V2 (standard series...the one with the green lights)
Randall T2
Peavey Ultra 60 / 120
Peavey 6505+

As far as tightness and definition, the V2 slays all the others. However, it is a very "Randall" kind of sound, so if you like that sort of thing, then it's a great amp. The T2 was next, and I would actually put the VHT on par with the T2.

I also think that with active pickups, it's a bit easier to get a "tight" sound. I prefer passives, and with good technique a "tight" sound is easily possible on those as well. Actives are also less forgiving concerning technique, IMO.

BTW, tight to me is a thick, massive bass and low-mid that doesn't get all mushy. All of these amps can do this in one way or another, but the V2 is by far the easiest with my setup (drop-tuned RG with the DS/AN pickup combo).


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## Speedy (Nov 10, 2009)

Now.. Here people should separate the tighness, and a tight low end. If bass response isn't loose like a Rectifier, it doesn't make the amp tight. Tightness is how the amp reacts to anything you do. How hard you're picking, how carelessly you're playing, what pups you use, what are the guitars woods etc. Tight amp is unforgiving, not like Fireball, which is relatively loose amp, when it comes to playing. Of course, when you compare it to a modeller, of course it can be harsh.

Tightness has nothing to do with the sound itself. Tightness could be considered as dynamics. Very many vintage amp is tight, because they react into dynamics very well. When amp reacts into dynamics well, it is unforgiving, because it lets you to hear everything you play. All the mistakes, all the loosiness in your playing, but all the great nyanses what you can produce just by changing how hard you are picking etc. Usually, when it comes to tightness and high gain, we get a very articulating and a clear sound. Even with a great distortion, the amps still works really dynamically.

ENGL's have a tight low end, and so do have many other amps, Mesa Rectos don't. But a tight low end isn't the same thing with tightness.

And for the reference, I've owned or played these amps.
-ENGL Savage
-ENGL Fireball
-ENGL Steve Morse Sig.
-Peavey 6505
-Peavey 6505+
-Randall RH50T
-Randall RG75
-Marshall JCM 800
-Marshall Vintage Modern 2244
-Marshall 2203 KK Signature
-Krank Revolutin+
-Krank Krankenstein
-Mesa Dual Recto
-Diezel Herbert
-HK Switchblade
-HK Triamp
-HK Trilogy
-EVH 5150III
-VHT Ultra Lead
-VHT Sig X.


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## 155 (Nov 10, 2009)

Harry said:


> What tuning are you using, out of interest?


the lowest im going is c standard


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## yacker (Nov 10, 2009)

Speedy said:


> Now.. Here people should separate the tighness, and a tight low end. If bass response isn't loose like a Rectifier, it doesn't make the amp tight. Tightness is how the amp reacts to anything you do. How hard you're picking, how carelessly you're playing, what pups you use, what are the guitars woods etc. Tight amp is unforgiving, not like Fireball, which is relatively loose amp, when it comes to playing. Of course, when you compare it to a modeller, of course it can be harsh.
> 
> Tightness has nothing to do with the sound itself. Tightness could be considered as dynamics. Very many vintage amp is tight, because they react into dynamics very well. When amp reacts into dynamics well, it is unforgiving, because it lets you to hear everything you play. All the mistakes, all the loosiness in your playing, but all the great nyanses what you can produce just by changing how hard you are picking etc. Usually, when it comes to tightness and high gain, we get a very articulating and a clear sound. Even with a great distortion, the amps still works really dynamically.


 
We may differ in opinion on this one, but what you are describing I would label as an amp's responsiveness....not its tightness. I'd be willing to bet what most guitarists consider to be "tightness" is more of a combination of an amp exhibiting a certain eq curve that isn't overly "round" or "flabby" as well as how quickly the amp responds to ones playing. The milliseconds of difference in time between you playing a note and the sound hitting your ears make the difference between whether an amp would be deemed tight or loose and saggy. There's also a certain element of "feel" involved. The amps ability to convey the nuances of your playing is something different, there are tight amps that are completely unforgiving and show every flaw and mistake and there are tight amps that are just the opposite.

I'd say tightness is a _type_ of responsiveness (specifically how quick vs slow), but not the same thing as responsiveness itself.


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## Edroz (Nov 10, 2009)

if on a budget, the Peavey XXX with the right tubes can be super tight if eq'd properly...


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## 155 (Nov 10, 2009)

funny you should mention the xxx , I played a jsk and it was in my ears light years tighter on the low end meaning the note definition was there not muddy like with the recto that was next to it same axe , ect... that said I dont want a jsx ...


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## sami (Nov 10, 2009)

Weird since the XXX is based off rectifiers and the JSX's red channel is based off XXX's. I'd suggest Fryette for tight.


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## yacker (Nov 10, 2009)

To the original poster: It's also worth taking some of the other elements of your setup into consideration if looking for a tight sound. While the amp head will certain dictate a large portion, your choice of speakers/speaker cabinet, pickups, string gauge, and the density of wood in your guitar will also play a large factor in the final sound or tightness. 

While I don't consider Rectos to be the tightest amps on the market, they often get a bad rep as far as tightness goes because they're usually used in combination with Mesa cabinets with vintage 30s. Not to mention they have a lot of different features and can be difficult to dial in. Namely solid state vs tube rectifiers.

Not to discredit VHT/Fryette amps in any way, but I'd be willing to bet a lot of their reputation for tightness is also influenced by their Fat bottom speaker cabs and the speakers inside them. From what I've heard the ultra lead is a very tight amp to begin with, but once you pair it up with a VHT/Fryette cabinet it's that much tighter. On the other hand, using that amp with a V30 cab would probably push it's tightness in the other direction.

Also the difference between using a Bareknuckle warpig or some equivalent vs some vintage pickup like a duncan '59 will make a huge difference too. And in more extreme cases the difference between a humbucker and single coil will be a ridiculous difference.


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## Speedy (Nov 10, 2009)

yacker said:


> We may differ in opinion on this one, but what you are describing I would label as an amp's responsiveness....not its tightness. I'd be willing to bet what most guitarists consider to be "tightness" is more of a combination of an amp exhibiting a certain eq curve that isn't overly "round" or "flabby" as well as how quickly the amp responds to ones playing. The milliseconds of difference in time between you playing a note and the sound hitting your ears make the difference between whether an amp would be deemed tight or loose and saggy. There's also a certain element of "feel" involved. The amps ability to convey the nuances of your playing is something different, there are tight amps that are completely unforgiving and show every flaw and mistake and there are tight amps that are just the opposite.
> 
> I'd say tightness is a _type_ of responsiveness (specifically how quick vs slow), but not the same thing as responsiveness itself.



Yeah.. I think we are talking about same thing with different names. Though, I don't think tightness has anything to do with EQ, or sound itself. It is more like how it sounds, not like what it sounds like, if you understand what I'm saying. I still think tightness is all about touch. A tight amp reacts into your mistakes, or nuances. Which makes it more versatile. I play both cleans, lead and rythm with my UL's lead channel, with same EQ/gain settings, simply by changing my playing, and usin different pups and turning down the volume on the guitar.

What comes to the VHT/Fryettes and Fat Bottoms, yes, Fat Bottom is a tight cab, but I don't think it is SO much tighter when compared to e. g. Diezel cabs. It is frontloaded, and definitely the most verstila cab I've tried, ut the UL was tight with a Marsh 1960, and a Krank with V30's. I wouldn't say the Fat Bottom is THAT MUCH tighter than the other cabs, but it definitely sounds the best.

What is a great thing with the UL is how it reacts into your playing, the pups you're using, the types of guitar, and how they sound, how they wibrate, what cab you use etc. So actually, you can get so much variation simply by changing guitar, and not touching the head or any pots.


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## RiffRaff (Nov 10, 2009)

I own a Madison Divinity 3 and I think that is a tight amp. I'm not sure what others think but when this amp really forces you to be a better player no matter what as it brings out every little nuance in your playing as to me, the distortion is quite dry (How I've dialed it probably helps). I think it's tighter than my Engl e530 pre-amp but the Engl just has way more balls and grunt if that makes sense... probably doesn't. In fact this is probably some bad rambling.  

I would love to play a VHT Pitbull as the bands I've seen live that play them have had the tightest, most crushing tone.


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## 155 (Nov 10, 2009)

good point on the cabs and I have both , mesa os v30 and a 1960b g12-t75 the pitbull is looking good so far..thanks for all the input this thread could go for a while


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## TMM (Nov 10, 2009)

yacker said:


> We may differ in opinion on this one, but what you are describing I would label as an amp's responsiveness....not its tightness.



+1, at least on this part of your post. What you're referring to (Speedy) is what I would also call responsiveness. The distinction here is that you can have a very responsive amp that still isn't 'tight', because although it is very touch-sensitive and responsive to your playing, the final sound reproduced by your speakers isn't tracking 'tightly' to what your hands are playing. Tightness is affected by every aspect of your rig, from your hands to every element of your guitar, to your pedals, your amp, and your speakers. Responsiveness is more amp / pickup-centered, though other aspecs of your rig can factor in. You can conversely have an amp that is very tight, but not particularly touch-responsive (like most Engls).

An Engl tracks very, very tightly to your picking, specifically because of the inherent compression in it's signal path, but because of this, it's also not a particularly 'responsive' amp. Your picking dynamics don't translate as well as they would with say, a VHT D120 / D60 or UL.

This is my #1 complaint about Engls, and why I will never have one as the main tone in my rig - they are too tight for my taste. I prefer to have a more dynamic responsiveness in my rig. That said, I certainly like having them around for double-tracking in recording, because they tighten everything up very well.

I'd agree with many posters here that VHT/Fryettes (specifically the D120, D60, and ULs) are one of the best amps you can get in terms of a balance of tightness & responsiveness. An Engl Invader or SE would be tighter, but the VHT would be more responsive. The Randall V2 is also supremely tight - I haven't tried a T2 yet, but I've heard those are even better. The Bogner Uberschall also has a nice balance of tightness with responsiveness. On a budget, the Peavey Triple-X, JSX, & 3120 are great choices (Triple-X on the Orange channel), as is the ART DST-8080.


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## TMM (Nov 10, 2009)

yacker said:


> We may differ in opinion on this one, but what you are describing I would label as an amp's responsiveness....not its tightness.



+1, at least on this part of your post. What you're referring to (Speedy) is what I would also call responsiveness. The distinction here is that you can have a very responsive amp that still isn't 'tight', because although it is very touch-sensitive and responsive to your playing, the final sound reproduced by your speakers isn't tracking 'tightly' to what your hands are playing. Tightness is affected by every aspect of your rig, from your hands to every element of your guitar, to your pedals, your amp, and your speakers. Responsiveness is more amp / pickup-centered, though other aspecs of your rig can factor in. You can conversely have an amp that is very tight, but not particularly touch-responsive (like most Engls).

An Engl tracks very, very tightly to your picking, specifically because of the inherent compression in it's signal path, but because of this, it's also not a particularly 'responsive' amp. Your picking dynamics don't translate as well as they would with say, a VHT D120 / D60 or UL.

This is my #1 complaint about Engls, and why I will never have one as the main tone in my rig - they are too tight for my taste. I prefer to have a more dynamic responsiveness in my rig. That said, I certainly like having them around for double-tracking in recording, because they tighten everything up very well.

I'd agree with many posters here that VHT/Fryettes (specifically the D120, D60, and ULs) are one of the best amps you can get in terms of a balance of tightness & responsiveness. An Engl Invader or SE would be tighter, but the VHT would be more responsive. The Randall V2 is also supremely tight - I haven't tried a T2 yet, but I've heard those are even better. The Bogner Uberschall also has a nice balance of tightness with responsiveness. On a budget, the Peavey Triple-X, JSX, & 3120 are great choices (Triple-X on the Orange channel), as is the ART DST-8080.


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## Randy (Nov 10, 2009)

petereanima said:


> VHT/Fryette Pitbull UL
> Diezel VH4





I'd also add the Engl Invader 150 in there as well.


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## Dickicker (Nov 10, 2009)

What about what jeff waters uses. Laboga Mr hector or whatever. Anygood? He has always had a tight metal sound that was pleasent to my ears. At least on the albums. Never seen them live.


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## groph (Nov 10, 2009)

Amps I've played through, not including practice amps

Marshall DSL50
Mesa/Boogie Dual Rectifier
Hughes & Kettner Statesman 60 (I think)
Marshall MG100CD 
Marshall TSL combo
Randall V2
Randall RM100
Randall RH150 G2
EVH 5150 III
Peavey 6505+
Peavey 5150II
Peavey Bandit
Peavey JSX



As far as tight low end goes, the Randall solid state stuff, like the V2 and the RH150 G2 were the tightest. The Peavey JSX was pretty tight as well but it had a round bottom end character that I hated. The EVH 5150III as well as the other 5150/6505's I've tried are probably the tightest tube amps I've played through

I'd say based on my experience, the tightest amp out there for metal would be a Randall V2. The V2 has 400 watts of headroom, so through speakers that can handle that kind of power you'd probably have a stupidly tight tone. The Randall T2 could probably match the V2 in tightness as well.


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## troyguitar (Nov 10, 2009)

Any high-power solid state amp with EMG-81's. Tight as can be. 

That probably won't help much if you actually want it to sound good though


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## yacker (Nov 10, 2009)

TMM said:


> +1, at least on this part of your post. What you're referring to (Speedy) is what I would also call responsiveness. The distinction here is that you can have a very responsive amp that still isn't 'tight', because although it is very touch-sensitive and responsive to your playing, the final sound reproduced by your speakers isn't tracking 'tightly' to what your hands are playing. Tightness is affected by every aspect of your rig, from your hands to every element of your guitar, to your pedals, your amp, and your speakers. Responsiveness is more amp / pickup-centered, though other aspecs of your rig can factor in. You can conversely have an amp that is very tight, but not particularly touch-responsive (like most Engls).
> 
> An Engl tracks very, very tightly to your picking, specifically because of the inherent compression in it's signal path, but because of this, it's also not a particularly 'responsive' amp. Your picking dynamics don't translate as well as they would with say, a VHT D120 / D60 or UL.



And I agree with this as well. Tightness and responsiveness are almost on two opposite ends of the spectrum...though not so much that an amp can't have its share of both. 

This is where a lot of the trade off between solid state and tube comes in. A lot of solid state amps are very tight because they track fast due to the physics of solid state technology vs tube etc. but aren't very responsive because they don't respond to picking dynamics very well.


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## Arsis (Nov 10, 2009)

Great, I just got rid of my VHT D120 Gas, now it is back.


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## AeonSolus (Nov 10, 2009)

Like many said;

Diezel VH4S
Fryette Pitbull
ENGL Invader

Also an amp i liked alot for metal is the Mesa Boogie Mark IIC+ when Boosted slightly with an OD, for me it's more sharp and focused than the Mark IV and alot more raw

I will also dare to say that the Ibanez TBX150H is Ultra tight for metal and all arround, it's all solidstate, and very focused, plus it's just 250 bucks...soooo


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## All_¥our_Bass (Nov 10, 2009)

+1 to ENGL, I don't think I've heard anyone else make an amp that is tighter.


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## Speedy (Nov 10, 2009)

All_¥our_Bass;1733249 said:


> +1 to ENGL, I don't think I've heard anyone else make an amp that is tighter.



Ahem.. Diezel and VHT/Fryette to name two? This isn't even about me debating all the people. If you compare me and my debating partners opinions, you'll still get these. ENGL's mostly are compressed. Yes, they are tight, but not that tight.


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## 155 (Nov 10, 2009)

ok whos got some good soundclips of a pitbull with no bullshit just the guitar miked, any cab


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## highlordmugfug (Nov 10, 2009)

155 said:


> ok whos got some good soundclips of a pitbull with no bullshit just the guitar miked, any cab


Bumpity because I want to hear this too.


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## 155 (Nov 10, 2009)

time to put up or shut up pitbull owners! haha just kidding but seriously some clips would be great!


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## CentaurPorn (Nov 10, 2009)

Tell ya what. I am the last one that should upload my slop. I have a shitty digital camera with a mic built in as it will do vid. In the next day or so I will upload a clip. Maybe tonight if I have time. I have NEVEr heard a clip of a UL dialed in how I like it. I won't be doing it justice with a shit cam but you will get the idea.

Link to Clip I just recorded now with a piece of shit camera. The volume is very low as the girl is on the phone. Excuse the sloppy playing, first take and I am a little rusty.

I just wanted to give you an idea of how a pitbull sounds with My settings.

Gain : 11:00
Treble: 11:30-12:00
Mids: 1:30
Bass: 9:30-10:00

Chan Volume : 12:00
Master Volume = Barely on.

-Bloody Murder - 

Volume = 2:00-3:00
Tone = 11:00
Drive = 0

It sounds soo much better opened up but I doubt this camera would handle it...and the girl is upstairs on the phone.
http://www.filedropper.com/mov03155


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## JJ Rodriguez (Nov 10, 2009)

Not enough gain. Sounds like Bryan Adams.


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## CentaurPorn (Nov 10, 2009)

You have too much gain and still sound like Bryan Adams.

The vid obviously does not do it justice. The volume is barely on and..well..its a piece of shit digital camera that barely does pictures well. I just wanted to debunk the whole lack of gain thing with VHT's. Looking at it my gain is actually closer to 10:00 and the edge button *adds more freq dependant gain* is OFF.


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## 155 (Nov 10, 2009)

thanks for trying, not alot of decent clips out there


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## CentaurPorn (Nov 10, 2009)

Nah not at all. I do plan on investing in a mic eventually. Best I can do with what I got for now. Wish you could feel the kick to the chest that I do sitting here..even at low volumes it is punchy and tight as hell.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Nov 10, 2009)

Especially when you play with my $20 pick.


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## tbird11 (Nov 11, 2009)

in regard to the op, it could just be me but recto's can sound pretty fuckin' tight dialled in correctly.

What is the tightest sounding metal amp?????

who fuckin know's, It's cool to discuss it, but IMO tightness comes from having

a) a decent amp whether it be mesa, peavey, marshall, deizel, VHT, Line 6, Freactal Audio, etc etc etc etc........

b) and IMO more importantly, Good technique. Tone and tightness are in the hands, a good player can make a shitty amp sound passable but a shit player on a sickass amp will still sound shitty and loose. 

Just my two cents........


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## petereanima (Nov 11, 2009)

Dickicker said:


> What about what jeff waters uses. Laboga Mr hector or whatever. Anygood? He has always had a tight metal sound that was pleasent to my ears. At least on the albums. Never seen them live.



not a bad amp, our second guitarrist has one and i played around with it often, we also have 1 of them as a backup (from a friend). solid metal tone. to describe it roughly, i would say its somewhere in between a Dual Recto and a 5150, but dryer and a tighter low-end.


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## onefingersweep (Nov 11, 2009)

Speedy said:


> What ENGL are you talking about? I think here Savage is defined the tightest ENGL, and I have owned one. And now I own an Ultra Lead. And Savage is nowhere near in tightness with the Ultra Lead.
> 
> Earlier, I talked about the difference between being compressed and tight. Compression decreases definition and articulation. I think people think ENGL's are tight, but people mix tightness to compressed sound. Like I said, big chunga isn't a synonyme to tight.
> 
> ENGL's are great for one note things, but man.. you should try the UL.



I'm talking about ENGL in general but yeah, Savage is the tightest. it's all about not having too much gain on the ENGL. I think they're equally tight. As I said in my first post.


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## Speedy (Nov 11, 2009)

onefingersweep said:


> I'm talking about ENGL in general but yeah, Savage is the tightest. it's all about not having too much gain on the ENGL. I think they're equally tight. As I said in my first post.



Yeah, I have owned them both, and I can dial my amps  I don't do too much gain in my sound. Actually I use really midheavy "rockish" sound, though I don't like Marshalls.

VHT is way tighter. It is less compressed, so it is harder to get to say "chunGGG" as much, but with a tight and precise playing, it will beat Savage. With the Ultra Lead it so much about the player. With a crap player it will sound like crap.


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## hanachanmaru (Nov 11, 2009)

didnt know if this clip would help as much.. it was one of the stupid clip i was doing with my cheap camera infront of my 212 orange cab with a 50CL ... kinda darn on what i was playing but if tone wise? am not too sure if this could help with no boost... with gain on full.. as i have changed to a VHT FB and its much much way tighter and the need not to boost the EQ as adviced by matured VHT users


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## El Caco (Nov 11, 2009)

Rectos can be dialed in very tight and they can be loose, they are versatile amps, just saying.

The tightest metal tones I have heard have come from the amps that hardly get mentioned here, old school amps with boost. Modelers like the GSP1101, AFX and so on can also provide as tight a tone as you want and just about anything else you can think of.

Some other things to consider is that a good EQ can tighten up an amp, and the guitar and pups play a role in how tight your tone is especially when tuning low


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## Harry (Nov 11, 2009)

Chaosphere was tracked with Dual Rectos, and tuned down to B flat.
As I've said before, tightness is overrated, and you don't need a super uber tight amp to maintain clarity with 7 strings.

Just because an amp is looser does not mean it is flubby or undefined.
Sometimes having a looser amp is really an advantage. I've heard plenty of clips where people tracked with a Mark IV, which is quite tight and then they did it again with the Dual Recto, the looseness of the Recto just made it sound bigger and meaner, but without being any less defined and clear.
I know it's cliche, but good technique plays a massive role too.
Someone playing a looser amp with amazing technique will sound infinitely tighter than someone with bad technique playing the tightest amp in the world.
Sit there and just constantly double track when recording to a metronome and your metal rhythm becomes virgin tight after a while.


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## Leuchty (Nov 12, 2009)

Harry said:


> Chaosphere was tracked with Dual Rectos, and tuned down to B flat.
> As I've said before, tightness is overrated, and you don't need a super uber tight amp to maintain clarity with 7 strings.
> 
> Just because an amp is looser does not mean it is flubby or undefined.
> ...


 
This post should pop up everytime someone types in "tight" .

Seriously Harry, fucking bravo.


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## Harry (Nov 12, 2009)

That post was also meant to say "than someone with bad technique playing the tightest amp in the world".
I guess my point still got across even though I left the word out


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## shanejohnson02 (Nov 12, 2009)

Harry said:


> Chaosphere was tracked with Dual Rectos, and tuned down to B flat.
> As I've said before, tightness is overrated, and you don't need a super uber tight amp to maintain clarity with 7 strings.
> 
> Just because an amp is looser does not mean it is flubby or undefined.
> ...




 Totally 100% agree. The only thing I would add though is that some amps just naturally project the technical and rhythmic tightness of a skilled player, moreso than some other amps. But that's still a very subjective matter


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## 7 Dying Trees (Nov 12, 2009)

yacker said:


> And I agree with this as well. Tightness and responsiveness are almost on two opposite ends of the spectrum...though not so much that an amp can't have its share of both.
> 
> This is where a lot of the trade off between solid state and tube comes in. A lot of solid state amps are very tight because they track fast due to the physics of solid state technology vs tube etc. but aren't very responsive because they don't respond to picking dynamics very well.


picking dynamics are dependant on how much yoursignal is getting compressed. you have an amp like a powerball, you get loads of compression, so whatever your pick attack, it won't matter. You play on a plexi, you have to pick well.

So they are not mutually exclusive. You can have both 

Also, my definition of a tight amp is one that is unforgiving, much like the 60's/70's plexi's et all.

Out of all the metal tinged amps i've been through I'd say that VHT stuff is blindingly tight and responsive, with gain that just doesn't saturate. The Ultralead is a very tight yet responsive amp. It also rocks for lead work.

The Diezel VH4 is on par with the ultralead, a really nice amp, very very tight, and very similar in character (a bit more marshall tinged than the UL).

ENGL stuff, well, to be honest, I've been a bit underwhelmed by it. I know a lot of people love it, but it just has a bit too much sterility to it.

It all depends really, but there's a reason my VHT UL will onnly leave my hands when they're cold, dead and pried open.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Nov 12, 2009)

Harry said:


> Chaosphere was tracked with Dual Rectos, and tuned down to B flat.
> As I've said before, tightness is overrated, and you don't need a super uber tight amp to maintain clarity with 7 strings.
> 
> Just because an amp is looser does not mean it is flubby or undefined.
> ...


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## yacker (Nov 12, 2009)

7 Dying Trees said:


> picking dynamics are dependant on how much yoursignal is getting compressed. you have an amp like a powerball, you get loads of compression, so whatever your pick attack, it won't matter. You play on a plexi, you have to pick well.
> 
> So they are not mutually exclusive. You can have both
> 
> Also, my definition of a tight amp is one that is unforgiving, much like the 60's/70's plexi's et all.



While I really don't care to turn this thread into a debate on the definition of the word "tight" in relation to guitar amplifiers, I can't say I entirely agree with you. Tightness and Responsiveness are definitely not mutually exclusive, I agree there all the way. However, I don't really consider tightness to be equal to unforgiving. There are definitely amps that exist that are tight and unforgiving at the same time, but I don't consider the two terms to be equal to each other.

Generally speaking my understanding of the word "tight", in this context, is a shortened version of "tight tracking" or "tight response" or "quick response." When something is tight, it's "in the pocket" so to speak. Compression is generally a part of this tightness, some amps just have a more natural compression then others. Some are compressed no matter what and some just become compressed when responding to a guitarist who is picking hard or fast or whatever. Also, some amps are over-compressed to the point of sounding sterile and unnatural. Some people like this and some people don't...but generally speaking these amps are still tight (usually). There are loads of modelers that are generally forgiving amp simulations, but still considered tight.

A lot of guitarists use boost pedals to "tighten up their sound" which is usually just adding some extra gain and thus compression at the input stage of the amp. 

I'm not sure how to express it better. Yes, certainly tightness and responsiveness aren't mutually exclusive, but just because an amp is very compressed doesn't necessarily mean it can't be tight either. An over-compressed amp just isn't considered to be very organic, dynamic, or natural sounding, but it can most certainly still be tight.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Nov 12, 2009)

yacker said:


> A lot of guitarists use boost pedals to "tighten up their sound" which is usually just adding some extra gain and thus compression at the input stage of the amp.



Most of the time a TS is used to cut low end, AND add gain. The low cut is what tightens it up, the added gain is just for a bit more bite.


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## TMM (Nov 12, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Most of the time a TS is used to cut low end, AND add gain. The low cut is what tightens it up, the added gain is just for a bit more bite.



+1 that, and to make up for some of the lost gain from cutting out the lows.


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## yacker (Nov 12, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Most of the time a TS is used to cut low end, AND add gain. The low cut is what tightens it up, the added gain is just for a bit more bite.



Well, I stand semi-corrected, haha. Probably makes for at least a slightly more compressed signal coming into the input of the amp vs. not boosted though, right?


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## Arsis (Nov 12, 2009)

Using a TS most definitaly adds compression.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Nov 12, 2009)

For sure, but if we're arguing compression vs tightness, or compression BEING tightness, I just thought the distinction between what happens with a TS should be made clear. The added gain definitely adds some compression, but the tightness from a TS comes from the low cut. Whether you want to argue super compressed signal being tight is completely separate from that 

Personally, I don't THINK a compressor adds tightness, but like I said, this is only a thought, I'm no engineer, I just know I like the sound of a TS up front 

Whenever I've tried using an actual compressor before my patches for distortion, it sounds like complete ass. This is probably why people run the gain pretty low on TS's and up the level to get their extra gain. I could be wrong though  I just do what sounds good to me


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## yacker (Nov 12, 2009)

Gotcha. I guess all I've been trying to express over a couple of posts in this thread, is that there are amps that are heavily compressed that could be considered tight and there are amps that are much more dynamic that could be considered tight. It really all boils down to personal opinion and to discount a whole brand...Engl for example...and say those amps aren't tight, they're compressed is a bit odd. I don't think compression=tightness or responsiveness=tightness. I'll leave it at that.

The original poster just needs to try out some of the amps mentioned and see what it is they like.


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## El Caco (Nov 12, 2009)

The debate is funny because tight is a term that is used in relation to a number of things and one guys definition of a tight amp obviously differs to another guys. Because it is subjective as much a good tone is subjective I think it is more a case of all these things can make for a tight sound. Using a bass cut whether it be with a pre EQ or TS is a sure fire way to tighten up an amp, technique can be key and response can be a factor but there is a lot more then just quick response that can make an amp feel/sound tight.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 12, 2009)

I knew this would happen


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## Taylor2 (Nov 12, 2009)

Harry said:


> Chaosphere was tracked with Dual Rectos, and tuned down to B flat.
> As I've said before, tightness is overrated, and you don't need a super uber tight amp to maintain clarity with 7 strings.
> 
> Just because an amp is looser does not mean it is flubby or undefined.
> ...




You raise a very good point Harry, totally agree and when recording, I prefer a looser amp.

However, at least for me, I prefer a tight amp for *live* purposes to recreate the sound as clearly as possible as sound waves have a lot more crap to work through to be clear. I loved my old Recto for recording, but live, not nearly as much. Not saying the Recto isn't clear, but it isn't as clear as my VHT was.
LOVED my VHT for live, wasn't as good in a mix for recording. Don't get me wrong, it sounds great recorded, but the Recto was a little better.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 12, 2009)

Harry said:


> Someone playing a looser amp with amazing technique will sound infinitely tighter than someone with bad technique playing the tightest amp in the world.



I deem this correct


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## Leuchty (Nov 12, 2009)

I wonder if the OP gave up,


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## Sepultorture (Nov 12, 2009)

compression or no, i find ENGL's have a tight sound for death metal, as apposed to mesa's which have a bit more sag to their sound

personally i am gravitating more to the Engl sound cus their death metal tones are TIGHT sounding to me, the low end isn't loose to me, it seams very in check and when you stop the ringing out of your guitar it seams much guicker to me, if that makes any sense.

i was thinking something more along the lines of good condition or mint, that to me looks like a fucking peice of shit, no offence


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## Chelseadevil21 (Nov 12, 2009)

VHT Sigx extremely tight/versatile as well..I play from b,C,e standard to Drop A,b,c and it covers all grounds


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## 155 (Nov 12, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I knew this would happen


me too!still here


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## 7 Dying Trees (Nov 13, 2009)

yacker said:


> Generally speaking my understanding of the word "tight", in this context, is a shortened version of "tight tracking" or "tight response" or "quick response." When something is tight, it's "in the pocket" so to speak. Compression is generally a part of this tightness, some amps just have a more natural compression then others. Some are compressed no matter what and some just become compressed when responding to a guitarist who is picking hard or fast or whatever. Also, some amps are over-compressed to the point of sounding sterile and unnatural. Some people like this and some people don't...but generally speaking these amps are still tight (usually). There are loads of modelers that are generally forgiving amp simulations, but still considered tight.
> 
> A lot of guitarists use boost pedals to "tighten up their sound" which is usually just adding some extra gain and thus compression at the input stage of the amp.
> 
> I'm not sure how to express it better. Yes, certainly tightness and responsiveness aren't mutually exclusive, but just because an amp is very compressed doesn't necessarily mean it can't be tight either. An over-compressed amp just isn't considered to be very organic, dynamic, or natural sounding, but it can most certainly still be tight.



Tight tracking on an amp is caused by fast power amp response, nothing to do with compression. Basically if you ask a power amp to suddenly change quickly from one state to another (ie, no signal to full signal, back to no signal), then the power it needs gets drawn via the transformers. Basically amps that have fast response times will need larger transformers, silicone diode rectification etc.

Basically, it's all about amp sag, the more sag you have (ie, when it lags behind, like when you use the tube rectification on a rectifier for instance), the looser the amp sounds. Looser is great for lead playing, not good for rythm in general.

Compression makes things sound tighter as the input signal on the front end gets compressed, but, at the same time you'll also find that it tends to help your playing as well, and lets you get away with a lot more.

ANyway, my main argument was that power amp sag has nothing to do with compression, but is a very significant fator in how fast an amp responds, especially if you add more low end in (low end just uses more power, case in point, look at the massive wattages of bass amps vs guitar amps)


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## Speedy (Nov 13, 2009)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Tight tracking on an amp is caused by fast power amp response, nothing to do with compression. Basically if you ask a power amp to suddenly change quickly from one state to another (ie, no signal to full signal, back to no signal), then the power it needs gets drawn via the transformers. Basically amps that have fast response times will need larger transformers, silicone diode rectification etc.
> 
> Basically, it's all about amp sag, the more sag you have (ie, when it lags behind, like when you use the tube rectification on a rectifier for instance), the looser the amp sounds. Looser is great for lead playing, not good for rythm in general.
> 
> ...



+1 to this! 

This is what I tried to say.. Sort of.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 13, 2009)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Tight tracking on an amp is caused by fast power amp response, nothing to do with compression. Basically if you ask a power amp to suddenly change quickly from one state to another (ie, no signal to full signal, back to no signal), then the power it needs gets drawn via the transformers. Basically amps that have fast response times will need larger transformers, silicone diode rectification etc.
> 
> Basically, it's all about amp sag, the more sag you have (ie, when it lags behind, like when you use the tube rectification on a rectifier for instance), the looser the amp sounds. Looser is great for lead playing, not good for rythm in general.
> 
> ...



 Although I would say that looser amps can be better for rhythm tones in certain applications.


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## yacker (Nov 13, 2009)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Tight tracking on an amp is caused by fast power amp response, nothing to do with compression. Basically if you ask a power amp to suddenly change quickly from one state to another (ie, no signal to full signal, back to no signal), then the power it needs gets drawn via the transformers. Basically amps that have fast response times will need larger transformers, silicone diode rectification etc.
> 
> Basically, it's all about amp sag, the more sag you have (ie, when it lags behind, like when you use the tube rectification on a rectifier for instance), the looser the amp sounds. Looser is great for lead playing, not good for rythm in general.
> 
> ...



Pretty informative post man. 

Let me put this out front. The main point of my posts (which I attempted to convey in my last post) was to more or less state there are "tight" amps that are highly compressed as well as highly dynamic. I'm not entirely sure if you would agree with that statement though, because your last two posts sort of make that distinction unclear. 

You made a post basically stating you considered a tight amp to be unforgiving (ie uncompressed). Then your last post basically states that tight tracking is unrelated to compression, therefore one would assume that you would agree that both types of amp (compressed and dynamic) could have tight tracking. Perhaps when you stated what a "tight" amp meant to you, you weren't entirely referring to tracking though? 

As far as compression not being equal to tight tracking....yea I could agree with that. Though I think, even if it's in a roundabout way, compression would generally have some effect on sag. You state yourself the frequency response (or how much bass is in the signal) has an effect, and thus different types of compression are going to have different effects on the frequency response and thus must have some effect on tracking...in one way or another. But yes, I could definitely agree that compression doesn't equal tightness, and that's not exactly what I was trying to convey.

For what it's worth I generally prefer a more unforgiving amp as well.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Nov 13, 2009)

Ah, 'll explain a bit further. In my experience so far, I've found most amps that are very compressed to have what I like to think of as "spread" where the note isn't razor sharp, but has a kind of i dunno, largeness to it, sort of no matter how hard you pick, it's always the same. Most high gain amps these days also rely on the preamp for the gain and compression, people very rarely crank their heads to 10 and rely on headroom in the power amp. ENGL et all have mostly compressed preamps, coupled with a tight power amp section, which I am not massively into personally, as it seems to lend them a little bit of a sterile edge (in my opinion), nice amps, just not for me.

Power amp compression is what a lot of people like about tbe amps, when a valve starts hitting distortion, it naturally compresses in a very musical way 9and also distorts in a musical way) much more than transistors. Solid State has high power ratings as solid state transistors clipping is truly a horrible sound (unless you're ministry and get everything to clip  )

So it's two different things really.

When I talk about unforgiving amps, I'm referring to the old plexi school, they are just ridiculously clean, and you just hear mistakes, they also respond pretty fast to playing dynamics.

Tightness, you are right, isn't that much about playing dynamics, but the response of the power amp and the amount of headroom you have. With cranking an amp, you are making it draw a lot of power, as with all things, the more change (ie, more output signal), the slower the amp will respond because of the sheer power draw.

Anyway... 

Amps with a lot of preamp compression help people who don't dig in, or light players (nice for fast shreddy lead work where you just cannot dig in as much) or just to balance everything out (in my mind anyway).

ALl depends on what you want, personally I prefer more raw sounding amps, once that you have to fight with and that expose you, whilst other people prefer highly compressed amps that are easy to play, all a matter of taste really!

Still, if you've never played a plexi, go have a go, they are riiculously loud, you need to crank them, and boost them to get any distortion out of it, but there's just an awesome amount of fun to be had by setting it to "small village destruction" levels, and busting out some AC/DC riffs on it 

i think i may have rambled on a bit here...


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## yacker (Nov 13, 2009)

HAHA, yea I'd love to destroy some small villages with a loud ass amp. Rambling or not you have some neat things to say.


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## Arsis (Nov 13, 2009)

When I think of an amp being tight I simpily thing clear, refined, or cutting.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Nov 13, 2009)

That's not what tightness is at all  An amp can have really tight response, but be undefined and cut worse than a dull spoon through cold butter.


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## Sacha (Nov 13, 2009)

In my experience tightness in an amp also relates to the preamp filtering. Hence why so many people boost with a TS type pedal, you're basically adding compression and filtering out some low end before the preamp. ENGLs and similar amps seem to have a built in 'boost' that filters that already.


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## El Caco (Nov 13, 2009)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Still, if you've never played a plexi, go have a go, they are riiculously loud, you need to crank them, and boost them to get any distortion out of it, but there's just an awesome amount of fun to be had by setting it to "small village destruction" levels, and busting out some AC/DC riffs on it




The same can be said for a number of old Fender amps.


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## Rhoadkiller (Nov 13, 2009)

VHT UL that is a tight amp


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## Hollowway (Nov 13, 2009)

yacker said:


> Pretty informative post man.
> 
> Let me put this out front. The main point of my posts (which I attempted to convey in my last post) was to more or less state there are "tight" amps that are highly compressed as well as highly dynamic.



I'm not sure what the definition of compressed and dynamic is that you're using, but generally compression is the antithesis of compression. Compressing a signal decreases dynamics by definition.


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## onefingersweep (Nov 14, 2009)

yacker said:


> Let me put this out front. The main point of my posts (which I attempted to convey in my last post) was to more or less state there are "tight" amps that are highly compressed as well as highly dynamic



This is true. Mesa Mark IV as a good example, it has all those qualities.


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## yacker (Nov 14, 2009)

Hollowway said:


> I'm not sure what the definition of compressed and dynamic is that you're using, but generally compression is the antithesis of compression. Compressing a signal decreases dynamics by definition.



I suppose it worded that funny. What I was trying to convey was more of two different amp groups.....not one group that has both qualities. Like, there are amps that could be considered tight that are highly compressed, and there are other amps that could be considered tight that are highly dynamic.

Compression and dynamic are opposite qualities, and I'm saying that tight amps exist on both sides of the fence.


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## Hollowway (Nov 14, 2009)

yacker said:


> I suppose it worded that funny. What I was trying to convey was more of two different amp groups.....not one group that has both qualities. Like, there are amps that could be considered tight that are highly compressed, and there are other amps that could be considered tight that are highly dynamic.
> 
> Compression and dynamic are opposite qualities, and I'm saying that tight amps exist on both sides of the fence.



Ah, yeah OK I see what you're saying. Yeah, so defining what "tight" is is really the first step, since one could go to either end of that spectrum, depending on definition.


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## lewbob (Nov 14, 2009)

Framus Cobra


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## asianaxeman (Feb 7, 2010)

155 said:


> how is the fireball all the clips and vids on youtube really suck?


 

you wanted a tight fireball clip- check this out

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...ch-enemy-riffs-engl-fireball.html#post1841956


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 7, 2010)

asianaxeman said:


> you wanted a tight fireball clip- check this out
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...ch-enemy-riffs-engl-fireball.html#post1841956



No..we wanted the thread to not be bumped from the dead


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## asianaxeman (Feb 17, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> No..we wanted the thread to not be bumped from the dead


 
u what?


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## El Caco (Feb 17, 2010)

That is looking a lot like a Troll, if I'm wrong learn some forum etiquette.


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