# Punk Rock and the Alt-Right



## bostjan (Jan 16, 2018)

https://www.gq.com/story/punks-and-nazis-oral-history

I like how the article ties in current events with the history of early 80's punk. Thought it might spur a bit of conversation here.

Do fascists/neonazis tend to glam on to whatever is popular and can be interpretted (usually incorrectly) to fit their agenda?

Is history repeating itself?


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 16, 2018)

If we're talking about fascism in general, then the whole "goading people into fights in the streets/bars and acting like victims" thing has been going on since the 1930s. That's literally what the fascists in germany and italy were doing back before they seized power. They'd find their political adversaries and basically goad them into fights to get them imprisoned. There's also the smart usage of latching onto rampant nationalism and imperialistic ideals like xenophobia/racial superiority that permeated most cultures of that time. Obviously there's parallels to draw, as the neonazis in germany during the 80s/90s did the same thing, and nationalistic xenophobic, racist americans are currently doing the same thing. The real irony is that antifa members have been caught using similar tactics of violence and goading political adversaries into fights.


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## Demiurge (Jan 16, 2018)

It's an interesting article, but is there a direct equivalent- shows getting bum-rushed by skinheads or the like- happening now? I don't really follow punk so I don't know... and as a metal fan I'm a bit numb to the idea of people's morbid fascination with evil becoming all-too-vivid affectations.


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## Xaios (Jan 16, 2018)

Sad and unfortunate that a lot of underground genres have become havens for Nazi fucks. From punk to metal to industrial, all the way to things like neo-folk.


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## bostjan (Jan 17, 2018)

Demiurge said:


> It's an interesting article, but is there a direct equivalent- shows getting bum-rushed by skinheads or the like- happening now? I don't really follow punk so I don't know... and as a metal fan I'm a bit numb to the idea of people's morbid fascination with evil becoming all-too-vivid affectations.



Not so much in music now, but in reference to how the fascists and neo-nazis have attached themselves to Trump during the election and starting to become active in public again. I haven't seen neonazis at a show since the 1990's, personally.


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## Drew (Jan 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> The real irony is that antifa members have been caught using similar tactics of violence and goading political adversaries into fights.


Did you bother to read the article? Just curious. It's basically an article about how punk rockers started kicking the shit out of neo-Nazis at punk shows and mockign them, and eventually they stopped coming. 



> Brecht: I decided to let the worst Nazi of all get up on stage, and gave him the mike and let him say what he wanted to say. Of course, he wasn't very intelligent and he started sieg-heiling and saying racist nonsense or whatever. Our tour manager grabbed a drum stand and walloped him on the back of the head. Once they saw we attacked the Nazi, then everybody else started attacking his buddies out in the audience.
> 
> Keith Morris (_frontman, Black Flag and Circle Jerks_): I witnessed this thing called the Wall of Death in Trenton, New Jersey, at the City Gardens. The skinheads would line up at the back bar and lock arms and run towards the front of the stage, and if you just happened to get in their way, you'd get knocked down, you'd get kicked, you'd get trampled. I leapt off the stage and got in the face of the biggest guy—he probably would have hit me a couple of times, and I would have been in traction in the hospital. I'm ready to get pulverized. I'm ready to just be a puddle, a broken and busted blob of humanity, lying in the middle of this dance floor.
> 
> ...



There's this alt-right myth that anti-fascists are somehow just as bad as fascists, because they don't hesitate to use violence when attacked. That's a load of crap. Fighting racistm and fascism has ALWAYS been a violent endeavor - we've fought a few wars over this. That's nothing new, and this latest attempt to condemn the method is just an attempt to distract from and legitimize the message.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2018)

Drew said:


> Did you bother to read the article? Just curious. It's basically an article about how punk rockers started kicking the shit out of neo-Nazis at punk shows and mockign them, and eventually they stopped coming.
> 
> 
> 
> There's this alt-right myth that anti-fascists are somehow just as bad as fascists, because they don't hesitate to use violence when attacked. That's a load of crap. Fighting racistm and fascism has ALWAYS been a violent endeavor - we've fought a few wars over this. That's nothing new, and this latest attempt to condemn the method is just an attempt to distract from and legitimize the message.


Yes I read the article. Did you even read my post? I'm not sure what part of my previous post was unclear, I mentioned antifa using similar tactics as 1930s fascists being ironic, because there's a direct parallel in the tactics used by both. I just like the irony of a group declaring themselves anti-fascists and then using essentially the same types of tactics that actual fascists have used. You can call it a myth, but when antifa and alt-right members have both been arrested for violence/caught on camera fighting, it's not really a myth.


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## MFB (Jan 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Yes I read the article. Did you even read my post? I'm not sure what part of my previous post was unclear, I mentioned antifa using similar tactics as 1930s fascists being ironic, because there's a direct parallel in the tactics used by both. I just like the irony of a group declaring themselves anti-fascists and then using essentially the same types of tactics that actual fascists have used. You can call it a myth, but when antifa and alt-right members have both been arrested for violence/caught on camera fighting, it's not really a myth.



The myth isn't that antifa have never been arrested for violence, the myth is that antifa using violence to fight actual fascists makes them just as bad as the real fascists they're fighting; which absolutely isn't true.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2018)

MFB said:


> The myth isn't that antifa have never been arrested for violence, the myth is that antifa using violence to fight actual fascists makes them just as bad as the real fascists they're fighting; which absolutely isn't true.


if we're being reductive, violence=violence. That's more what I was trying to point out. I don't agree with the alt-right ideals in any capacity (especially as a nonwhite) and obviously there are degrees of violence, ie hitting someone in the face with a bike lock isn't the same as running them over with a car, but that's essentially what I meant.


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## MFB (Jan 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't agree with the alt-right ideals in any capacity (especially as a nonwhite) but if we're being reductive, violence=violence. That's more what I was trying to point out. Obviously there are degrees of violence, ie hitting someone in the face with a bike lock isn't the same as running them over with a car.



So, by that same logic, those who used violence during WWII to also stop actual fascists should've been trying to use other means? If they won't listen to reason, then you have to resort to action, which is why we've had to come down to violence ('we' in the collective sense of anyone opposing fascists, I'm not an antifa member by any means).


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## vilk (Jan 17, 2018)

durrrrrrrrrrr the facists ate potatos
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh antifa eats potatos
ummmmmm its' so ironic, right?!


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2018)

MFB said:


> So, by that same logic, those who used violence during WWII to also stop actual fascists should've been trying to use other means? If they won't listen to reason, then you have to resort to action, which is why we've had to come down to violence ('we' in the collective sense of anyone opposing fascists, I'm not an antifa member by any means).


I'm not opposed to violence if no other options are available (though obviously they were not in regards to WW2).


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## MFB (Jan 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm not opposed to violence if no other options are available (though obviously they were not in regards to WW2).



Which I think is what this all boils down to. There was a time for civility, but when we've fought a world war over these bullshit arguments and the majority group continue to say "cut this shit out and walk on home boy" but they won't listen, it's time to act. 



> durrrrrrrrrrr the facists ate potatos
> uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh antifa eats potatos
> ummmmmm its' so ironic, right?!



Not to try and be Mod Squad Jr, but shit like this doesn't further the discussion at all, so how about we just don't post it?


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## Xaios (Jan 17, 2018)

Nazis use violence as a means of oppression. Antifa uses violence as a means to stop oppression. That's a pretty key difference, one that can't simply be handwaived away by saying "all violence bad."


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## Drew (Jan 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> if we're being reductive, violence=violence. That's more what I was trying to point out. I don't agree with the alt-right ideals in any capacity (especially as a nonwhite) and obviously there are degrees of violence, ie hitting someone in the face with a bike lock isn't the same as running them over with a car, but that's essentially what I meant.


And my point was resistance to Nazis and neo-Nazis has ALWAYS been violent, since for the groups Nazis persecute, it's a matter of life or death.

And, while we're at it, that "violence = violence" is an attempt to normalize the alt-right by ignoring their motives and focusing on their means. Nazis have always been met with violence, and it's incredibly disingenuous to pretend that the problem here isn't Nazism, it's violence.


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## vilk (Jan 17, 2018)

MFB said:


> Not to try and be Mod Squad Jr,



You sure? Coulda fooled me.

Does further conversation on account of it illustrates an argument against a point: doing something the same as your enemy is not inherently/necessarily ironic.

But what IS ironic (or maybe only just hypocritical?) is that what you wrote to me furthers the discussion _even less_ than what I wrote. Maybe you shouldn't have posted it.

but most of all, I'm very, very sorry that I hurt everyone's feelings. Hope you guys can all forgive me, specifically any moderator whose arm is heavy with the hammer. I'll even say 10 Hail Marys


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2018)

vilk said:


> You sure? Coulda fooled me.
> 
> Does further conversation on account of it illustrates an argument against a point: doing something the same as your enemy is not inherently/necessarily ironic.
> 
> ...



You come off as a somewhat decent guy with a grasp on reality until you go and show everyone why you shouldn't be taken seriously in even the most not serious adult conversations. Reel in the e-peen by a few inches and maybe folks would be okay with a lackluster joke or not funny wisecrack every now and then. Have a good evening.


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## vilk (Jan 17, 2018)

nvm


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## bostjan (Jan 17, 2018)

Violence = violence, I believe is a relation that tells us nothing, essentially.

Violence = (_insert word here that tells us what violence is_) is a different story.

Violence is a tool that is effective as a last resort. I think some would disagree and say that violence is never effective, but I'm going to go ahead and say that those people need to be very careful and clever in order to affect the world around them once their antagonists resort to violence.

Anyway, the tool is of less interest to me than the motivating force using it. If anti-fa is using violence as a mechanism to defend someone or to counter another violent faction, then I'm ambivalent. If the group incites violence at a peaceful protest or something, then I think there's more to discuss.

But, at the meta-level, I get the feeling that bringing up anti-fa and violence in a conversation that is not about anti-fa and not about any specific violence that involves anti-fa directly, is just a red herring that gets commonly thrown into a discussion in order to derail it. 

So, in my humble opinion, either a) we talk about a specific instance of anti-fa's use of violence and deconstruct it logically or b) we talk about anything else and stick to that. I'm not saying "don't bring up anti-fa unless ____," I'm just suggesting that maybe bringing up anti-fa every time anyone mentions neonazis might just be one of those common things that leads to a weak discussion.


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## Xaios (Jan 17, 2018)

bostjan said:


> But, at the meta-level, I get the feeling that bringing up anti-fa and violence in a conversation that is not about anti-fa and not about any specific violence that involves anti-fa directly, is just a red herring that gets commonly thrown into a discussion in order to derail it.


This is a really excellent point. Nearly every time I see someone bring anti-fa violence up, it's clearly meant as a deflection. It's kind of like if two children misbehave and one is caught, they'll immediately turn on the other one in an effort to either deflect or delegitimize criticism aimed at them.

(Not a perfect example, by the way, because it implies that neither party had legitimacy, which is not necessarily the case with regards to anti-fa.)


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## Science_Penguin (Jan 17, 2018)

I think Rollins' statement at the end of the article does bring up a good point about Anti-Fa. The whole "a lot of these guys come prepared to goad you into a fight," thing. 

However justified Anti-Fa may be for getting violent, I do strongly believe they shouldn't. I came to this realisation after Charlottesville (and, eerily, I think I used similar wording as Rollins...) that, by getting violent they are playing right into the Neo-Nazi's hands. They WANT the confrontation. At best, they want it as an excuse to seem like the victims, and at worst, they want it as an excuse to... as Rollins put it, "empty a magazine of rounds into a crowd."


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## Petar Bogdanov (Jan 18, 2018)

In Europe, nazis just go to soccer matches. The music scene, as leftist as it is, seems like the least appropriate place to go.


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## Ebony (Jan 18, 2018)

Last time I saw nazis at a gig was in Sweden some years ago. One of them tried to make fun of me (I'm half arabic and look like a fundamentalist when I don't shave) but once he realized all of his friends was too busy being afraid of my facial expression to laugh at his "joke" he tried to be my best friend for the remainder of the evening.

But unless they actually make an effort to bother me, the idea of getting extra offended by nazis at a metal/punk gig is just stupid. Half the crowd at any given show consists of devout misanthropes who pride themselves on being hateful and wearing pins and shirts saying things like "kill yourself" and "people=shit" is pretty much the dress code. 

Last time I was at the inferno festival in 2015 there was literally a guy standing in front of me with a shirt saying "your grandmother suck cocks in hell". Now, my grandmother is the only grandparent I have, she's the second dearest person I have in my life and we used to live together. Just a few weeks before the Inferno festival she broke her leg and was hospitalized, so I had her fresh in my mind when I saw this.

What was I supposed to do? Rip him away from the girl he was kissing and beat the living shit out of him? It sure was tempting, but offcourse I didn't do it because, regrettably, one still has to use a mental filter when going to a metal/metal-esque show because many of the bands (and fans) still do their best to appear as mean as possible. And I use the word "appear", because most of these people are just ordinary people with an attitude.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 18, 2018)

Ebony said:


> Last time I saw nazis at a gig was in Sweden some years ago. One of them tried to make fun of me (I'm half arabic and look like a fundamentalist when I don't shave) but once he realized all of his friends was too busy being afraid of my facial expression to laugh at his "joke" he tried to be my best friend for the remainder of the evening.
> 
> But unless they actually make an effort to bother me, the idea of getting extra offended by nazis at a metal/punk gig is just stupid. Half the crowd at any given show consists of devout misanthropes who pride themselves on being hateful and wearing pins and shirts saying things like "kill yourself" and "people=shit" is pretty much the dress code.
> 
> ...



That "grandmother" line is actually a quote from _The Exorcist_, a very well known and commercially successful horror movie from the 70's. It's "popular" due to the intense scene in which it's uttered. Of course, by modern death metal standards the quotes from that movie are pretty tame.


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## Ebony (Jan 18, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That "grandmother" line is actually a quote from _The Exorcist_, a very well known and commercially successful horror movie from the 70's. It's "popular" due to the intense scene in which it's uttered. Of course, by modern death metal standards the quotes from that movie are pretty tame.



I have seen the movie.


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## Drew (Jan 18, 2018)

Xaios said:


> This is a really excellent point. Nearly every time I see someone bring anti-fa violence up, it's clearly meant as a deflection. It's kind of like if two children misbehave and one is caught, they'll immediately turn on the other one in an effort to either deflect or delegitimize criticism aimed at them.
> 
> (Not a perfect example, by the way, because it implies that neither party had legitimacy, which is not necessarily the case with regards to anti-fa.)


This, exactly. It's simple what-about-ism; since the alt-right can't defend their beliefs in the mainstream, they defend their methods as being "no worse than the other side." 

The disappointing part is the degree to which that attitude has been adopted by the so-called "alt-light," the guys who aren't overtly white nationalist and whose racism rarely goes beyond the occasional "I';m not racist, but..." statement, but who the alt-right sees as a fertile breeding ground of dissatisfied (mostly young, white, male) Americans who could potentially be converted to their belief structure.


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## feraledge (Jan 19, 2018)

Science_Penguin said:


> I came to this realisation after Charlottesville (and, eerily, I think I used similar wording as Rollins...) that, by getting violent they are playing right into the Neo-Nazi's hands.


You mean when Antifa played into the hands of these pacifists? 





In case you need a refresher, if it weren't for Antifa, there would probably have been far more than one dead body:


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## Explorer (Jan 19, 2018)

In some past topic, some idiot started claiming that the left in the US was just as violent as the right. I started a topic, which I can't find (might have been deleted by mods) asking for examples of leftist violence numerically equivalent to rightist violence, given that the neo-Nazis and KKK are right wing. 

The equivalence argument rhetoric failed due to lack of real examples, which isn't surprising.

There have also been topics here, like the discussion of Orson Scott Card's bigorty, where people have argued that intolerance of bigotry is the same as bigotry, and that those who fought for the Allies in WW2 to defeat the Axis were just as evil as the Nazis with their death camps. 

If one has to deliberately lie to make one's case, there isn't a case.


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Jan 25, 2018)

I have posted here in a grip but I'm glad to see this corner of the internet still has some rational people. It seems everywhere I look Antifa is getting shit on because "they're violent so that makes them fascists".
Slightly off-topic, do you guys think it's unreasonable or alarmist to say it seems the tide of fascism is rising in the US?
On topic, my buddy in a punk band has "This machine kills fascists" tattooed on his body and of there's the Dead Kennedy's song "Nazi Punks Fuck Off". So, as much as they may exist in the scene I'd say the opposition is larger.


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