# Judge videotaped beating daughter with belt (NO VIDEO)



## groph (Nov 1, 2011)

*It's all over Reddit and a quick YouTube search will bring up the video and the judge's contact information, I'd really rather not have the video posted anywhere on this site. It's one of the most difficult things I've ever watched, trust me.*

In 2004, a *family law* judge named William Adams was secretly videotaped beating the shit out of his daughter, Hillary, for (I think?) downloading illegal music and the like. The video starts in what appears to be Hillary's room with the lights on. The lights go off and what appears to be Hillary is directed by what appears to be her father to bend over onto her bed. He has his belt in hand and he starts beating her senseless, ignoring her screams. He's cursing at her the entire time and the whole thing really goes beyond discipline. If the man in the video is indeed Judge Williams, then he is an absolute monster who has created a world of terror for his own daughter.

Hillary I think is now 23 (she was 16 at the time of the video) and she's out of her parent's house after another altercation with her father. Things boiled over and she posted the video of her beating in 2004. Of course there is a huge outrage.

Watch the video and come back saying that you don't want to skin her father alive and shoot him between the eyes. I've never been abused by my parents and I can't imagine the terror in the home such a monstrosity of a "father" would create. 

Just spreading the word in case anyone hasn't heard of this. If the video is indeed what it appears to be, this judge deserves everything that is coming to him and then some.

EDIT: This shit happens to kids all the time so I know it's not like this is some novel offense so this was a bit of an emotional post. The video is all kinds of fucked up to watch and it's difficult not to get extraordinarily angry.


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## estabon37 (Nov 2, 2011)

I didn't get past two minutes, it's a seven minute video and if it continues the way it starts then I don't have it in me to see the rest.

I don't want to skin him alive, or shoot him. I want to see him prosecuted. I don't care if the punishment isn't very severe, but people who take out that kind of violence on their own children should at the very least be forced to sit in a court room and sweat over the possibilities. If he does time, that's awesome, but a very public trial should be the least of his punishment.

Having said all that, every parent from every culture all over the world has to decide how to punish children that misbehave. I don't have kids (and don't plan to), but I've had this discussion with my friends who have children. My opinion is that if you wouldn't use a specific punishment on someone else's child because it could be considered inappropriate, then you shouldn't use it on your own. If William Adams sincerely thinks it's okay to punish ALL children in that manner, he needs to go away (to a prison or a psychiatrist) for a long time.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

For downloading music? Really


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## GATA4 (Nov 2, 2011)

Are his actions in this video worthy of actual prison time/public trial like the Reddit community is demanding?


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## toiletstand (Nov 2, 2011)

depends on which state but usually theres a statute of limitations of 2 years for this stuff. hell just look really bad in public and will probably have a hard time getting elected for his next term.


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## Daggorath (Nov 2, 2011)

GATA4 said:


> Are his actions in this video worthy of actual prison time/public trial like the Reddit community is demanding?



People get locked up every day for victimless crimes, where they're harming no person. So something like this is definitely deserving of state punishment.


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## Metalus (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow. That guy deserves such a massive beatdown for this actions. I don't understand how someone can do that to someone else who is clearly powerless to anything they do


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## troyguitar (Nov 2, 2011)

Well that beats $20,000 per song or whatever the fuck the RIAA was trying to sue people for 

Not going to find the video, doesn't sound appealing.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

I watched through the video and if im honest judging by what you guys were saying i expected it to be worse. When i was younger i sometimes got the belt, though not to the extent that that girl did. BUT i learned early on to accept my punshment and not fight it. I turned out fine and i love my parents dearly.

From what i gather; he carries on because his daughter doesn't want to be punished. So she is being reluctant to take such a punshment. I CAN understand this but i don't think it would have gone on for so long if she had just done as she was told. What you didn't tell people Groph was that its not continual, theres a lot of silence and a lot of her mother coming in and siding with her father. Explaining what she has done wrong. It doesn't last for 7 minutes continual beating at all.

Imagine the implications if she had been caught illegally downloading at the time, her fathers career would have been ruined. I'm not condoning his actions, but we don't know what she was like as a child, she could have been a little demon for all we know and this was the only way to instill discipline in her life. Disabillity aside, maybe the father had spoken to her on several occasions about downloading music, and she hadnt listened. Maybe the reason she put the camera there was because she knew that her father had reached boiling point and she wanted some evidence to use against her father if he ever questioned her again... There's a million ways this video can be viewed.

If im totally honest it seems to me like a daughter trying to ruin her fathers career because they don't get along. Why did she film it? Why was she SO reluctant and make so much noise even when he wasn't doing anything to her bar talking?

IMHO opinion, i can sorta understand the guy , i personally don't believe in beating children but i do believe that if a child does not get the message then sometimes something like this is needed to give them a wake-up call. I had to have them sometimes and you can be sure as hell if my children ever need one i will give them one (though not to the extent of the guy in the video).

We don't know the full story. 

For the record: Before i start getting neg repped all over the place for having an opinion try logically talking to be about this perhaps? Thanks


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## Prydogga (Nov 2, 2011)

'Wow factor' and whatever aside, I find that even if it's not the most extreme case of abusive parents I've ever heard or seen, fuck this guy. I do not trust a man who has such a lack of compassion for his own child fit to make decisions that directly impact another person's future.

Pardon me for this, but fuck him. Fuck him hard. Screw the guy, don't hit your god damn kid you moron, discipline is important, but SERIOUSLY?


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## TheJokker (Nov 2, 2011)

this used to be common; my dad whipped me once or twice worse than this. you feared punishment back then but than again you could go to school without fear of being attacked. spare the rod; spoil the child.


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## Valennic (Nov 2, 2011)

I can see where everyone's coming from about disciplining your child, but IMO, this man manages to cross the line between punishment and abuse. You don't beat your child for 7 minutes with a belt over something so assinine. You don't beat your child with a belt for 7 minutes for fucking anything. That is abuse, plain and simple, no matter which way you argue it. It only takes a few cracks with a belt, in the space of no more than 30 seconds, for a child to understand that they fucked up, not 7 minutes worth of beating. 

So for those of you trying to justify his actions, niggas be crazy.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

I love how sensationalism gets the attention of the internet. 

Facts:

1) We don't know the whole story

2) That wasn't the most horrific case in getting whipped

3) Apparently this has been an ongoing thing in this household and she was apparently using the computer without being given permission.

Honestly I don't see this as child abuse. Spankings aren't fun..that's the point. I've seen kids get their asses whipped a lot worse than that. Getting whipped is still a valid punishment and is not something that's strictly for abusive parents. I don't like jumping to conclusions and letting 7 min of video tell me a story that (at the time of the video) was 16 years in the making.


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## ghostred7 (Nov 2, 2011)

Do I think it was a bit extreme....yah.

I'm 37 y/o and when I was in/about 16 y/o, if I didn't listen, I get belted. Natural 'kid' reaction is to shield the butt when getting whooped....so, you'd get leg, hip, whatever. I also had the proverbial "switch." Nothing was worse than my mom (born in '33) sayin "go outside and get me a switch." THAT scared the shit out of me. 

I can't speak to the CP disability as I've no knowlege on that or how it affects the psyche. This 16 y/o was disobeying her parents' rules and when getting punished for it, she exacerbated it by not rolling over (natural defensive reaction...but AGAIN not listening), which upset the dad more.

Now, I will say I have a kid comin up on 15 in march.....IMO, he's beyond the "spanking stage," but doesn't mean I won't wear his ass out if he screws up enough to deserve it. I'd more like to take his instruments (trombone) away and make him drop out of band before wearin' him out though. I'm glad I have good kids and haven't had to ground/spank/anything for 5+yrs.... +1 for good parenting and well behaved/responsible kids!

This Judge and daughter is a case of extreme parenting makes extreme behaviorial outcome.


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## ElRay (Nov 2, 2011)

I wasn't going to respond to this, but my curiosity got the better of me and I watched the video. A could of quick quotes/comments:



> {Shutting off the light for a mere spanking?}
> 
> "Bend over or I'll fuckin' hit you in the face!"
> 
> ...



The list goes on. Watch the whole video. There's a huge amount of emotional abuse in addition what ever unwarranted physical violence there is. The "See how mad you're making me!" & "This is all your fault." comments are classic abuser blaming the victim comments.

That's not punishment, it's crossed way over the line into abuse.

It doesn't matter what you received as a kid, just because you got beat worse doesn't make this any more acceptable.

EDIT: The county is aware of this. In the past 15 mins ore so, a news release has been added to the court's home page: http://www.aransascountytx.gov/courtatlaw/ and the "Contact Us" page has be disabled: http://www.aransascountytx.gov/courtatlaw/contact.php

Ray


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

You don't teach your children to respect you by belting or smacking them. Nature tells us to do as we are done by, therefore a child who is not shown any respect by their parent and is subject to violence is not going to respect their parent's rules. If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out! 

I'd very much like to see a law against physical violence of any kind towards children. Parents must use encouragement and respect in order for their children to abide by rules. When growing up I showed respect to my mother because she was respectful and kind to me. It works both ways, you know.


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## vampiregenocide (Nov 2, 2011)

I cannot find this video to comment on it, can someone link me either here or via PM?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> You don't teach your children to respect you by belting or smacking them. Nature tells us to do as we are done by, therefore a child who is not shown any respect by their parent and is subject to violence is not going to respect their parent's rules. *If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out! *
> 
> I'd very much like to see a law against physical violence of any kind towards children. Parents must use encouragement and respect in order for their children to abide by rules. When growing up I showed respect to my mother because she was respectful and kind to me.



Yeah...that's showing some real respect.

Spankings may not work for every kid, but for some kids they do. If you don't like it, don't do it to your kids..but don't go telling other people what works best for their children. It's worked since parents have been having children and many of us who went through it didn't grow up to be violent lunatics.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah...that's showing some real respect.
> 
> Spankings may not work for every kid, but for some kids they do. If you don't like it, don't do it to your kids..but don't go telling other people what works best for their children. It's worked since parents have been having children and many of us who went through it didn't grow up to be violent lunatics.


 
If my father were to show no respect for me by beating me with a belt, then why should I show him respect? There's no reason for me to. I give as good as I get. 

Yes, I'm proposing that smacking and belting should be outlawed because they are displays of physical violence towards children, and that in my mind is wrong. I also believe that my method will work best for raising healthy and respectful children. You might have a differing opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't voice mine. 

I don't see any sign of it working. Growing up, I had a friend whose father belted him when he was 'naughty'. He was scared of his father and did whatever he said. Is that a good way to bring up a son, instilling him with fear? I think not.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> If my father were to show no respect for me by beating me with a belt, then why should I show him respect? There's no reason for me to. I give as good as I get.
> 
> Yes, I'm proposing that smacking and belting should be outlawed because they are displays of physical violence towards children, and that in my mind is wrong. I also believe that my method will work best for raising healthy and respectful children. You might have a differing opinion, but that doesn't mean I can't voice mine.
> 
> I don't see any sign of it working. Growing up, I had a friend whose father belted him when he was 'naughty'. He was scared of his father and did whatever he said. Is that a good way to bring up a son, instilling him with fear? I think not.



I certainly don't think hitting your own parents is the proper response to what YOU feel is disrespect. My parents have "disrespected" me in many ways, but I didn't think that's a free pass to act as "ignorant" as they do..and by not resorting to that I learned later on that the things they did had nothing to do with disrespect. Your parents didn't strike you, but yet you're telling me that you see nothing wrong with knocking out your own father because he must show you respect or face consequences..and that alone is a topic that can be talked about in length.

I don't fear my parents and they hit me. I never feared them, but I knew there were consequences to my actions. It also taught me that there was always someone bigger and badder and that whole "If you don't give me respect I'm gonna blah blah" bit only leads to embarrassment and a whole world of pain. The wide majority of people I know from multiple generations went through the same thing and they're productive and decent members of society, many with their own kids who certainly don't cower in fear of their parents.

How you discipline your kids is your business, but when you go passing laws to enforce how you feel as if it's the only right opinion, it's insulting, rude, and rather arrogant. There is a definite line between abuse and discipline. You basing your personal experience as the cornerstone of your belief of how to discipline kids is clearly not the right answer. Kids are different and not everything works on every kid. Some kids need talking to, some kids need time out, some kids need punishment, and some kids need an ass whipping.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 2, 2011)

Am I the only one not seeing the big deal here? I didn't find it uncomfortable to watch nor did I find the video disgusting. Who really knows the story here? None of us. The girl could of had it coming for all we know.

The mother appears to be scared and just agreeing with the husband, she seems to be trying to lessen the child's suffering.

Still though... I really don't see this as a big deal at all.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I don't fear my parents and they hit me. I never feared them, but I knew there were consequences to my actions. It also taught me that there was always someone bigger and badder and that whole "If you don't give me respect I'm gonna blah blah" bit only leads to embarrassment and a whole world of pain. The wide majority of people I know from multiple generations went through the same thing and they're productive and decent members of society, many with their own kids who certainly don't cower in fear of their parents.
> 
> How you discipline your kids is your business, but when you go passing laws to enforce how you feel as if it's the only right opinion, it's insulting, rude, and rather arrogant. There is a definite line between abuse and discipline. You basing your personal experience as the cornerstone of your belief of how to discipline kids is clearly not the right answer. Kids are different and not everything works on every kid. Some kids need talking to, some kids need time out, some kids need punishment, and some kids need an ass whipping.


 
I think you slightly misunderstood me regarding kids fearing their parents. I'm just stating that it was the consequence in _that_ situation. And if we had a law against such behaviour from parents, chances are it could've been avoided. 

I really don't see why any kid should respect parents who don't respect them. I wouldn't expect that from my child. I'd respect them and then expect that respect to be reciprocated. 

I certainly don't feel that belting kids is good in any way. If you beat an adult with a belt, it'd be classed as torture or something similar. And I don't feel that kids should have less rights than adults in terms of how they can be treated by fellow humans. 'Ass whipping' is just senseless violence.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> I think you slightly misunderstood me regarding kids fearing their parents. I'm just stating that it was the consequence in _that_ situation. And if we had a law against such behaviour from parents, chances are it could've been avoided.
> 
> I really don't see why any kid should respect parents who don't respect them. I wouldn't expect that from my child. I'd respect them and then expect that respect to be reciprocated.
> 
> I certainly don't feel that belting kids is good in any way. If you beat an adult with a belt, it'd be classed as torture or something similar. And I don't feel that kids should have less rights than adults in terms of how they can be treated by fellow humans. 'Ass whipping' is just senseless violence.



And beating your own parents for not dealing with you according to your standards is senseless violence. You can't claim spanking kids is wrong, yet actually say that violence should be combated with more violence. 

The main issue is that we disagree and that's fine. I don't think I'm any more right than you are and vice versa..HOWEVER I wouldn't suggest that laws be passed to keep you from disciplining your child how you see fit regardless of whether or not I think it's wrong.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> And beating your own parents for not dealing with you according to your standards is senseless violence. You can't claim spanking kids is wrong, yet actually say that violence should be combated with more violence.
> 
> The main issue is that we disagree and that's fine. I don't think I'm any more right than you are and vice versa..HOWEVER I wouldn't suggest that laws be passed to keep you from disciplining your child how you see fit regardless of whether or not I think it's wrong.


 
No, it is treating the parent how they treat you. In other words, retribution. Or perhaps prevention of damage being done to me. There is no reason a child should stand for being beaten, belted or smacked. Combating it with physical violence is a way to prevent damage being do to the child. 

Yes, I'll agree to disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to differ in opinion. Just remember that everyone's opinion is valid, yours and mine. And if a law were to be passed stating smacking and belting are illegal, everyone would have to comply. Just like it is currently legal to belt and smack.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> No, it is treating the parent how they treat you. In other words, retribution. Or perhaps prevention of damage being done to me. There is no reason a child should stand for being beaten, belted or smacked. Combating it with physical violence is a way to prevent damage being do to the child.
> 
> Yes, I'll agree to disagree with you. Everyone is entitled to differ in opinion. Just remember that everyone's opinion is valid, yours and mine. And if a law were to be passed stating smacking and belting are illegal, everyone would have to comply. Just like it is currently legal to belt and smack.



Wouldn't make it right..and that is my point. How you feel is how you feel but that doesn't automatically cancel out people who feel spanking their kids is logical.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Wouldn't make it right..and that is my point. How you feel is how you feel but that doesn't automatically cancel out people who feel spanking their kids is logical.


 
Well if I were to hypothetically belt my child I'd expect them to use physical violence toward me to resist the beating, because there's no reason they should put up with me doing such a thing. 

If you were to beat your children then I believe you are doing something wrong, but you believe you're not doing anything wrong. Let us leave it at that


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## kmanick (Nov 2, 2011)

I could only watch the first couple of minutes of this.
Anyone that hits a child like that (especially a girl) needs to have the shit kicked out of him (which he probably did by his father on a regular basis , hence he thinks this is 'OK').
I could not even begin to imagine doing anything like that to my daughter.
Violence breeds violence.
My old man used to use the belt on me and the only thing it did was piss me to 
to the point that when I was big enough, I fought back.
needless to say we did not have a "good" relationship.
A parent that strikes their child is usually doing so out of their own frustration.
As far as I'm concerend if you feel that beating your child is "OK" you have no business being a parent.


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## Daggorath (Nov 2, 2011)

Some of the posts in here make me feel a little queezy. Physical punishment for children is NEVER ok with me. Discipline is sometimes needed, but there are much better ways. Being stern with your children will make them fear you, but it wont make them agree with you. The best parents seen are those that push their children to think for themselves and nurture their critical capacities, via encouragement when they do good, and rational conversation when there's an issue. People make mistakes, you cannot reap from experience and grow if you're always terrified of making a mistake. Sure, repeatedly bad behaviour requires some form of action; but if you aren't creative enough, or don't understand your kids values adequately enough to devise an alternative punishment, then you've got a problem.


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## ghostred7 (Nov 2, 2011)

I grew up with belt and switch...NEVER feared my parents, only respected them, we had an outstanding relationship. They never belittled me, never cussed at me, never made me feel unsafe...but damn sure knew I shouldn't screw up and to respect their house and them. I was unruly, but never violent. In fact, I even shyed away from violence until well into adulthood (then I joined the Army and got plenty).

I also never belted/switched MY kids....never really needed to. I've worn their tails out before, but was with my hand, even then was on a rare occasion. They're now 14 & 12 and I haven't had to do more than fuss a little over the last 6yrs-ish. They're not scared of me, we have a friggin' awesome relationship.

Today's society has entered our homes entirely too much. By half the logic I see here, I'm being told that for a 2 y/o baby, it's better to grab their hand away from the stove and just simply tell them 'NO!' or to let them burn themselves to get the point across. Fuck that. Their little hand needs a smack to go with the "NO!" and they'll get the point (not saying it has to be hard, but enough to get the point across...especially can tell when they stop and look to see who's watching before they cry to get sympathy).

I wonder how many of the "don't-spank" people here are actual parents, especially parents of early teens or older. Even then, every child is an individual. I've seen tons of children that never got spanked and their parents followed the "nuture only, no spank" direction and those children are now in early 20s, and have been in jail or hooked on severe drugs.


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## groph (Nov 2, 2011)

Read through the thread, I'll point out a few things first to clarify

The biggest one being that I posted in anger, I watched the video and I had to stop at about 1:40 just from the way she was crying. Then I watched the rest of it and my blood was running hot and my heartbeat was up. If I was there in that room I probably would have strangled her father to death, I can NOT take watching a kid getting beaten like that. I get extremely angry when I see anybody getting beaten, especially in that atmosphere of total one-sided dominance; I think that's one of the worst things a human being can do to another.

- Yes, the mother intervened and there was a lot of debate on Reddit as to whether or not she was trying to placate the father or if she's just as twisted and deserving of punishment as he is.

- I know, 7 minutes of video doesn't tell the entire story.

- to reiterate, I posted in anger and now that my head is a bit more clear I can see other perspectives. This is sensationalized and this kind of abuse, unfortunately happens all the time and it's totally fine in other cultures. 

The worst physical punishment I ever got was a smack on the knuckles with a pen. For some reason I remember that. Aside from that my parents would tell me what I did, I got lots of time outs, groundings, and things taken away but I was never hit. My mother suffered a period of abuse from her father and I understand that it is her opinion that one should never hit a child. 

It's been my opinion that if you have to hit your kid to discipline them, you've failed as a parent somewhere. Of course, I've never had kids so my point of view is almost totally ignorant and pretty ideal. I've never had a belligerent little shit undermine my authority and damage my property with a smile on his face, for example. Realistically, I don't think I'd jump to conclusions and condemn a parent for giving a kid five across the eyes every now and then when they get completely out of line because this parent probably puts up with a lot of shit and they provide everything for the child. If they're otherwise a good parent then I guess the odd smack is excusable, it's not going to psychologically fuck a person up THAT badly. I have no sympathy for alcoholic or drug addicted parents who are only parents in the biological sense who treat their kids like scum. None. 

Also, I think the instance in the video sets some things apart. That's not discipline, that's a fucking monster trying to establish a pecking order. He's hauling into her with that belt and the things he's saying to her are straight out of a rape porn. I interpret her silence at the end as her bottling away the damage because it's been visited on her many times. If that's what the pattern of her "discipline" has been like, then, in my opinion, yes she has definitely beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind suffered terrible physical abuse and her father should be punished to the fullest extent possible. One video probably isn't going to do much. Might make matters worse, his career might be tarnished and he could track her down with a vengeance. She never deserved to have gotten hit in the first place, and she doesn't deserve to be hit again. 

As much as we romanticize childhood as some pure state of innocence, I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that a child (or spouse, anybody really) should have to come home to THAT kind of environment. An abusive father/husband is a cancer in a household. I'd imagine abusive mothers are similar.

EDIT: If I had to take a belt to a kid of mine, I'd give them a good whack across the legs. Not literally anywhere the belt happens to hit, and I wouldn't be cursing at them and saying things like "Turn over and take it" while I'm doing it. I also wouldn't be putting my back into it as if they were an animal I was trying to break. That's my point here, I really think this judge is going far, far beyond discipline and into the realm of "you are below me as a person, fear me."

EDIT EDIT: I'd never take a belt to a kid. I hope if I got that angry I'd remove myself from the situation for a while until I calmed down. I know I would scream my lungs off at them and probably break stuff around me because I can get violent when I'm angry enough but I haven't hit another human being since I was nine, and I did that as a dominance display, I remember the feeling.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

ghostred7 said:


> Today's society has entered our homes entirely too much. By half the logic I see here, I'm being told that for a 2 y/o baby, it's better to grab their hand away from the stove and just simply tell them 'NO!' or to let them burn themselves to get the point across. Fuck that. Their little hand needs a smack to go with the "NO!" and they'll get the point (not saying it has to be hard, but enough to get the point across...especially can tell when they stop and look to see who's watching before they cry to get sympathy).


 
Today's society has to enter our homes to prevent damage being done to children. The correct response to your baby touching the stove is to pull their hand away and explain to them why they can't. By smacking the baby you'll be teaching it that smacking is fine and that they can do it. The fact that the baby would stop to see who is watching before touching the stove shows that fear of smacking by the parent's hand has been instilled into the baby.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> Today's society has to enter our homes to prevent damage being done to children. The correct response to your baby touching the stove is to pull their hand away and explain to them why they can't. By smacking the baby you'll be teaching it that smacking is fine and that they can do it. The fact that the baby would stop to see who is watching before touching the stove shows that fear of smacking by the parent's hand has been instilled into the baby.



Not true. If hitting kids taught children that violence was fine, me and several others would be prize fighters by now. I haven't been in a real fight since I was a kid and I didn't initiate it..nor did I win.

I'm not a violent person, I've never hit anyone be it parents, lovers, whatever, nor do I think it's alright to resort to violence out of emotional distress.

What a child learns when they get their hand smacked is that when Mommy/Daddy says something, they mean it and there are consequences for going against it. Don't like the smack? Don't do it. It's pretty simple.

That mimicks the real world. There are consequences for the wrong behavior and many of the consequences are painful. If you want to avoid said pain, you do what you're supposed to do.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Not true. If hitting kids taught children that violence was fine, me and several others would be prize fighters by now. I haven't been in a real fight since I was a kid and I didn't initiate it..nor did I win.
> 
> I'm not a violent person, I've never hit anyone be it parents, lovers, whatever, nor do I think it's alright to resort to violence out of emotional distress.
> 
> ...


 
Certainly in my experience it has taught children that it is fine, perhaps not in yours. 'Violence out of emotional distress'... I don't think using violence toward a parent to prevent them beating you is classed as that. It is called self defence because you believe the parent's action to be wrong. 

What a child learns from this process is fear. Fear of pain and violence. Respect is learned through respectful behaviour toward the child. You learn not to do something through education, not fear. 

Consequences in the real world (at least our civilised western world) don't involve pain, beatings, whippings or smackings.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 2, 2011)

The spanking vs anti-spanking debate has always felt a little weird to me. My parents spanked me and I neither hold it against them nor feel that they failed as parents for having done it, and I also like to think that I turned out alright. However, I realize that that is purely anecdotal and that circumstances can vary widely.

As an aside, if someone in real life were to tell me that my parents were failures because they spanked me, I would consider it an unforgiveable offense and they would never again be welcome in my household.


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## Rev2010 (Nov 2, 2011)

Always this argument about hitting kids. It's been done since the dawn of time. Of course serious beatings are wrong, and unlawful, but a small spanking and such is not a huge deal and is sometimes necessary. I haven't seen this vid so I can't comment but it's sounds way overboard. However, you know those kids on the Nanny shows? You know, the one's that SPIT in the mothers face and hits the parent? 95% of the time those kids NEED a beating to break their habits and the reason they have those habits are because there's lack of a "policing" force. The parent takes away their game system as punishment they simply go and get it cause they know where it is. The parent makes them stand in the corner they simply walk the fuck away. There's nothing preventing them from doing just what they want. And then they get mad and spit in the parents face and face no penalty whatsoever, or something they easily undo or don't go along with.

Just like the whole bullying thing. The greater majority of the time if you kick the bully's ass they will not bother you ever again. I had people start shit with me in elementary school because I was always one of the tallest in the class. The other kids would always start shit by saying, "Who do you think would win in a fight, Peter or xxxx??". As a result, I'd always have some dumbass challenging me to a fight. And I always kicked the kids ass and the funny thing was nearly every time they became a good friend afterward.

Believe it or not physical pain is an innate learning mechanism. Just like how as a little kid you touch a hot stove, get burned, and learn to never do that again. Of course talking to a kid is the best method to go with first, but what do you do when you talk to the kid, he pacify's you by promising it won't happen again and claiming to understand, then goes and does it again? Where do you go from there? Take away toys and all that shit, but then what if the kid keeps doing it? No matter what you try peacefully if the kid keeps doing wrong what do you do?

When I was a kid a friend of mine and I stole from some stores. We eventually got caught stealing at one store. His mother beat the living shit out of him in front of me. SHE took shit too far - she grabbed him by the hair and threw him around the living room punching him etc. My mother beat me with a wooden spoon, which I look back on as not all that bad. Did my friend or myself ever steal again? Fuck no! Not once. If instead my mother sat me down to a cup of tea and a talk and that's all that happened I probably would've taken the chance again because there was no risk of any worrisome punishment.

All this aside, people need to stop butting their nose into other people's business. If someone wants to spank their child as punishment that is their business unless they are going way too far. A spanking isn't anywhere near the same as punching a 2 year old square in the face for example. That would deserve the parent being locked up and the child going into another family member's custody. But saying no physical punishment whatsoever should be tolerated is Utopian and unrealistic.


Rev.


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## groph (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> Today's society has to enter our homes to prevent damage being done to children. The correct response to your baby touching the stove is to pull their hand away and explain to them why they can't. By smacking the baby you'll be teaching it that smacking is fine and that they can do it. The fact that the baby would stop to see who is watching before touching the stove shows that fear of smacking by the parent's hand has been instilled into the baby.



Yeah here's where I feel conflicted. I hate the idea of state influence interfering with private lives and telling people how they should be living or what they should be recycling, I just live in this dream world where everybody has a good head on their shoulders and thinks for a moment before they do something. Definitely not reality, kids and parents are different and yes obviously some kids live terrible lives at the hands of their parents. It just irks me to think that the bad parents have effects on the good parents by way of state interventions (like if a good parent hits a kid once and child services gets called in) but I guess I shouldn't be too worried about good parents.

In the specific example of a baby's hand and a hot stove, I'd intervene because i don't think it's worth having second degree burns on your kid's palm so you can prove a point. I'd pull the kid away and then show them how hot the burner is by lighting a small piece of paper on fire, or something like that. Then they'd realize that they're a fucking idiot and I know better  Also, why is the baby around a hot stove in the first place? There's also a good reason for those outlet plugs that prevent those idiot babies from electrocuting themselves. Until a kid is old enough to go to school, a parent's only job is to literally ensure their kid doesn't die.

I think the biggest risk of abuse coming from me would be in a situation where a kid doesn't respect my parental authority, but the way I see it now, that'd be my fault because I didn't instill the sense early on. Maybe the kid is just by nature an insubordinate little asshole. I'd have to show dominance SOMEHOW (I scoff whenever I hear a parent do "I'm going to count to three") without making idle threats or literally beating the piss out of the kid (risking him turning into an able bodied teenager who will be more than capable of kicking my geriatric ass when shit hits the fan). I'm just not the greatest at being angry. I don't really have a temper (that I know of) but I just don't handle anger very well and it scares me to think that I might lash out at a kid or wife/girlfriend. Spousal and child abuse breaks my heart, sad panda X 10 ^ 99999999999. Pretty much up there with genocide. The thought of me doing it scares me. 

Ugh. I'm worrying too much about this debacle. I'm really not a violent person, I just break shit when I get mad and I'll probably be grown out of it by the time I'm old enough for kids.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> Certainly in my experience it has taught children that it is fine, perhaps not in yours. 'Violence out of emotional distress'... I don't think using violence toward a parent to prevent them beating you is classed as that. It is called self defence because you believe the parent's action to be wrong.
> 
> What a child learns from this process is fear. Fear of pain and violence. Respect is learned through respectful behaviour toward the child. You learn not to do something through education, not fear.
> 
> Consequences in the real world (at least our civilised western world) don't involve pain, beatings, whippings or smackings.



It's a child..you aren't a parent to be a child's buddy and be on the same level. You are NOT on the same level as your parents..they are your parents. They are to be respected..there is no "I demand respect from my parents". You don't demand anything, respect is earned by doing the right things. Obviously if your parent feels the need to tan your hide because they've told you something multiple times and you've decided to go against them, you haven't earned any respect because you've proven that left to your own devices you will make the wrong decisions. It's a parents job to stop that.

We all have a fear of pain and violence..anyone with sense has a fear of pain and violence. We learn through spankings that parents are not on our level and we don't get to override their authority. We learn that going against them causes negative outcome, and we learn later in life that they did it not just because they're evil, but because it kept us out of harm's way.

Don't think bad choices in the real world = pain? Pick a fight with a gang member, bad mouth a Biker gang's women, kill someone in a state where the death penalty exists, run with scissors and your shoes untied, taunt the neighbors angry pitbull, do something stupid and end up in as fresh meat in jail..preferably around shower time

Want emotional pain?
Quit your only job when you have bills to pay and mouths to feed, cheat on your wife and let her find out, be an ass and alienate yourself from everyone you love

You do these things and NO harm comes to you, you'd be a lucky man. When we do the wrong things, we get hurt. We learn that early on


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## kmanick (Nov 2, 2011)

thee is quite a difference between "a spanking" and what the fucking idiot in this video was doing.
I whole heartedly believe a well placed smack across the bottom will get the message across (My daughter knows where the line is that she cannot cross and she's only 9)
Swearing at your kid and maliciously whipping them like a fucking mule is not the way to discipline a child, or to teach them what's right and wrong.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's a child..you aren't a parent to be a child's buddy and be on the same level. You are NOT on the same level as your parents..they are your parents. They are to be respected..there is no "I demand respect from my parents". You don't demand anything, respect is earned by doing the right things. Obviously if your parent feels the need to tan your hide because they've told you something multiple times and you've decided to go against them, you haven't earned any respect because you've proven that left to your own devices you will make the wrong decisions. It's a parents job to stop that.
> 
> We all have a fear of pain and violence..anyone with sense has a fear of pain and violence. We learn through spankings that parents are not on our level and we don't get to override their authority. We learn that going against them causes negative outcome, and we learn later in life that they did it not just because they're evil, but because it kept us out of harm's way.
> 
> ...


 
Only the law dictates that children are not equal to adults. That does not mean it isn't true that they are. There is _no_ reason for a parent to belt their child, because if they did that to an adult they'd face consequences. Children should have equal rights to adults in terms of how they can be treated. I completely disagree with the way society views this matter. If a child is being physically or verbally abused then I fully support their overhauling of a parent's authority. 

I demand respect from any person, because I give them respect. It is about reciprocation. Likewise if I am not respected, then I will not show the disrespector any respect whatsoever. I wouldn't expect _any_ respect from my kid if I didn't respect them. 

As for whipping/belting... it is just barbaric and unneccessary. In the case of the news article presented in this thread... it was for what? Breaking a minor rule. It requires a stern talking, if that! The Judge is twisted, sadistic and sick.

The pain in terms of brutal violence you talk of are also things which I strongly disagree with happening.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> Only the law dictates that children are not equal to adults. That does not mean it isn't true that they are. There is _no_ reason for a parent to belt their child, because if they did that to an adult they'd face consequences. Children should have equal rights to adults in terms of how they can be treated. I completely disagree with the way society views this matter.
> 
> I demand respect from any person, because I give them respect. It is about reciprocation. Likewise if I am not respected, then I will not show the disrespector any respect whatsoever. I wouldn't expect _any_ respect from my kid if I didn't respect them.
> 
> As for whipping/belting... it is just barbaric and unneccessary. In the case of the news article presented in this thread... it was for what? Breaking a minor rule. It requires a stern talking, if that!



You do realize that you're making broad generalizations on what all children need, right? Do you have kids? You seem very passionate about not hitting kids. Some kids don't need it. Different discipline styles for different kids. Don't like hitting them? Don't do it, but when you try to lecture other or correct others on why they think spanking is necessary, you've already lost. The issue is that people can deal with their kids how they see fit.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You do realize that you're making broad generalizations on what all children need, right? Do you have kids? You seem very passionate about not hitting kids. Some kids don't need it. Different discipline styles for different kids. Don't like hitting them? Don't do it, but when you try to lecture other or correct others on why they think spanking is necessary, you've already lost. *The issue is that people can deal with their kids how they see fit*.


 
I think that just sums your mentality up. I find it completely appalling.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> Certainly in my experience it has taught children that it is fine, perhaps not in yours. 'Violence out of emotional distress'... I don't think using violence toward a parent to prevent them beating you is classed as that. It is called self defence because you believe the parent's action to be wrong.
> 
> What a child learns from this process is fear. Fear of pain and violence. Respect is learned through respectful behaviour toward the child. You learn not to do something through education, not fear.
> 
> Consequences in the real world (at least our civilised western world) don't involve pain, beatings, whippings or smackings.



What a jaded view of the world you have NatG. Ive listened to your opinion silently now for a while and honestly what proof do you have to back up these statements? Your phrase earlier "If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out!" makes you sound like a silly little child. No you wouldn't have punched his lights out, becase A) you were and for all i know probably are still a child and B) you'd still have shown your father respect. Because that is what children are supposed to do. Show respect to elders and take heed of their words and teachings. You obviously have no children and you don;t know what its like when you can't reason or verbally discipline one so don't pass judgement.

Lets look at some facts here. In the past decade in Britain smacking has been a taboo subject and as a result of which many parents stopped doing it. This generation of children are in uni, college and late schooling. What do we have that is rampant on the streets nowadays? 







Did we have this 20 years ago? NO. Children had respect for adults because they knew if they misbehaved they would get a clip round the ear or a spanking. 

Fast forward back to today, people such as yourself find smacking to be totally wrong because you grew up without it. Sure your home life might have turned out fine, but for thousands of others without any form of physical punishment theyve turned into kids without any real direction in life who think they can do anything and get away with it. The same COULD be said about her home life. What if she had carried on downloading music (which her father had repeadedly told her not to do previously, as shown in the video) and got caught? Her fathers career would have been over, she would have had a ridiculous fine and she would have suffered for the rest of her life.

The girl in question was beaten with a belt yes. But lets look at how she turned out, shes seems to be a rather normal young lady with a talent for playing the piano, and she's obviously very bitter at her father. I don't see her stabbing old women for change on street corners.... Yes i am generalizing but what i am saying is correct.

Obviously by teaching children no form of physical discipline at all many think its ok to go round loitering on street corners, scaring the general public and generally being a pain in the ass. Respect in society isn't learnt through respectful behaviour. Many people are simply too stupid for that. Respect is learnt primairly through fear and obedience. That is the whole point of the child/parent relationship. You see it in nature all the time.

Let me make this clear. What the father did in this instance was a little extreme yes. But at the same time what else can you do when a child simply will not listen? We don't know the full story, and probably never will.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> What a jaded view of the world you have NatG. Ive listened to your opinion silently now for a while and honestly what proof do you have to back up these statements? Your phrase earlier "If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out!" makes you sound like a silly little child. No you wouldn't have punched his lights out, becase A) you were and for all i know probably are still a child and B) you'd still have shown your father respect. Because that is what children are supposed to do. Show respect to elders and take heed of their words and teachings.
> 
> Lets look at some facts here. In the past decade in Britain smacking has been a taboo subject and as a result of which many parents stopped doing it. This generation of children are in uni, college and late schooling. What do we have that is rampant on the streets nowadays?
> 
> ...


 
If you've read my posts in this thread you will understand my opinion and why I have formed it. Through personal and life experience. I wouldn't have shown my father any respect if he had done such a thing. I'd have done exactly as I stated because of his actions towards me. Luckily I didn't have a father who behaved like that living in the household with me. All my childhood I listened and took heed from elders and family, because they were respectful and kind to me. And I saw how many other children were brought up and I was disgusted. 

The way teenagers and young people behave mirrors their upbringing. I have not turned out like these people your picture shows because I was brought up respectfully and encouraged. I was told how to behave responsibly. The people in that picture will have had bad examples set to them through their whole upbringing. 

If I'd been reared with smacking/beating, I'd have most likely rebelled. Because that isn't the way I nor any other child should be treated. 

He didn't have to belt his daughter. He could've sat and had a chat with her about why ilegally downloading music is wrong, and thus preventing damage to his career.


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

I got spanked all of once in my life when I was 8; I had disobeyed them after they warned me not to swing a stick inside, I broke a glass pane in a light fixture and dropped broken glass around me. My dad never talked to me while doing it, he hit me hard enough to make my ass numb in 1 hit. I got hit not for disobeying them, but because I could have really hurt myself for disobeying them. He let the hurt sink in for a half hour or so and then came to tell me that. Disrespect, disobedience did not earn beatings in my house. In fact, my dad would challenge me as I got older to put-up or shut-up. The idea was that if I wanted to stand toe to toe with my old man, then I would be an equal. I didn't get verbal abuse, though I might get told the truth of how I was acting at the time. Personally, I think that's how physical discipline should be done. Just a random beating doesn't instill a lesson other than to perhaps fear your parent's temper. Physical discipline has to be done in response to something where pain would be the natural outcome for it to mean something, like smacking a kids' hand when they reach for a burner instead of letting them learn "oh, that's fucking hot" by letting them burn themselves. 

Obviously, I think this punishment was not only above the line but useless, obviously the girl realized the behavior was wrong. What really bugs me about this is the verbal assault, the beating is pointless and stupid, but the words are what really hurt me. Placing myself in the girls shoes, hearing that from my parents would make me like a worthless piece of shit - and no parent should do _that_ to their kids.

MY


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> If you've read my posts in this thread you will understand my opinion and why I have formed it. Through personal and life experience. I wouldn't have shown my father any respect if he had done such a thing. I'd have done exactly as I stated because of his actions towards me. Luckily I didn't have a father who behaved like that living in the household with me. All my childhood I listened and took heed from elders and family, because they were respectful and kind to me. And I saw how many other children were brought up and I was disgusted.



How can you say you wouldn't show your father respect if he had done that? You haven't lived that life so you have no idea what you would have done. You simply imply that you wouldn't respect him based on how you were actually brought up.

My father used phyical punishment on me and i respect and love him more than ever. I will do it to my children if they need to be phyically disciplined because it will teach them never to do it again. Smacking hurts, and used as a deterrent it can be extremely effective againt a child who will not listen to their parents.



NatG said:


> The way teenagers and young people behave mirrors their upbringing. I have not turned out like these people your picture shows because I was brought up respectfully and encouraged. I was told how to behave responsibly. The people in that picture will have had bad examples set to them through their whole upbringing.



That's a completely ridiculous and stupid assumption to make. Many troubled children come from perfectly normal families. Most of which don't condone disciplining their child when they do something wrong. Prime FACTUAL example, my bands previous drummer stole our singers phone and was according to the police a serial offender. His parents were perfectly normal individuals, not theifs or sccumbags like their son. 

Also by your reasoning i should be going round beating people, but i should also be a doctor and should drink sherry. Those are my parents, not me. Everyone has their own mind, but if they arn't taught respect somehow then they will never use it in the future. 




NatG said:


> If I'd been reared with smacking/beating, I'd have most likely rebelled. Because that isn't the way I nor any other child should be treated.
> 
> He didn't have to belt his daughter. He could've sat and had a chat with her about why ilegally downloading music is wrong, and thus preventing damage to his career.



I was smacked and belted. I never rebelled, why would you have done differently? Ohh yes thats right because *everyone has their own mind and opinion*. You can't say for certain you would have. That a preposterous statement to make. Your opinion is that no child should ever be smacked or given phyical discipline. When you have children i cant wait to see that opinion strained.

No he didn't have to belt his daughter. But the previous conversations he had with her about the issue obviously didn't give any effect to the situation so he tried a different approach. Granted he went too far with it but what he did was overall a logical solution.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> If you've read my posts in this thread you will understand my opinion and why I have formed it. Through personal and life experience. I wouldn't have shown my father any respect if he had done such a thing. I'd have done exactly as I stated because of his actions towards me. Luckily I didn't have a father who behaved like that living in the household with me. All my childhood I listened and took heed from elders and family, because they were respectful and kind to me. And I saw how many other children were brought up and I was disgusted.
> 
> The way teenagers and young people behave mirrors their upbringing. I have not turned out like these people your picture shows because I was brought up respectfully and encouraged. I was told how to behave responsibly. The people in that picture will have had bad examples set to them through their whole upbringing.
> 
> ...



You haven't answered the question..do you have kids? How old are they? What has worked with them. And how old are you? I'm honestly not asking to badger but to make a point (and no..not the point that you don't know anything because you have no kids..not my point)


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> How can you say you wouldn't show your father respect if he had done that? You haven't lived that life so you have no idea what you would have done. You simply imply that you wouldn't respect him based on how you were actually brought up.
> 
> My father used phyical punishment on me and i respect and love him more than ever. I will do it to my children if they need to be phyically disciplined because it will teach them never to do it again. Smacking hurts, and used as a deterrent it can be extremely effective againt a child who will not listen to their parents.
> 
> ...


 
With regards to the person I am, that is exactly what I'd have done. If I'd been reared with smacking/belting, I doubt it'd have been different. Though obviously I can't prove that to you. 'kmanick' stated earlier in this thread that he was belted, and when he was able to he fought back. He obviously wasn't respecting his dad's authority, because he believed it to be wrong. As would I in that situation. I never said I can say for certain, but I'm 99.999% sure. 

Your parents smacked you, and yes, you were fine with it. But you've also learned from their example that you can go ahead and smack your children. The downsides to it you're ignorant of. 

'Troubled children' almost always come from disturbing backgrounds or were influenced by what they were experienced and what they saw. Take the lads in the photo earlier. They live on what looks like a council flat estate. Throughout their life they'll have experienced poverty and perhaps a low brow father who didn't instill moral values upon them at a young age. Thus, they turn to crime and violence for money and perhaps kicks. They think that is fine because they haven't had a good example set to them. 

On the other side of the coin, take myself. I was raised by my mother on a 'middle class' estate. My mother brought me up with understanding of right and wrong, kindness and encouragement. I've turned out the complete opposite of those lads. Perhaps if I'd been raised like them it'd have been different. 

Using violence on his daughter like that was _completely_ unneccessary. Perhaps he could've prevented her from access to the internet if she hadn't behaved. But no, because he is sadistic he decided to whip her with a belt.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You haven't answered the question..do you have kids? How old are they? What has worked with them. And how old are you? I'm honestly not asking to badger but to make a point (and no..not the point that you don't know anything because you have no kids..not my point)


 
He didn't ask a direct question. I've no kids, just understanding of what worked with me. I am 18.


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> What do we have that is rampant on the streets nowadays?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And before that we had:





















I get what you're saying, but hoodlums and miscreants are nothing new and I seriously doubt its due to a lack of physical discipline throughout the ages.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> With regards to the person I am, that is exactly what I'd have done. If I'd been reared with smacking/belting, I doubt it'd have been different. Though obviously I can't prove that to you. 'kmanick' stated earlier in this thread that he was belted, and when he was able to he fought back. He obviously wasn't respecting his dad's authority, because he believed it to be wrong. As would I in that situation. I never said I can say for certain, but I'm 99.999% sure.
> 
> Your parents smacked you, and yes, you were fine with it. But you've also learned from their example that you can go ahead and smack your children. *The downsides to it you're ignorant of. *
> 
> ...



You seriously need to re-read what you're saying. You're making horrid generalizations about people's lives and how they deal with their children. For every point you've made I personally know people who've grown up in environments that prove wrong everything you are saying. What you're saying reeks of a person who hears things but doesn't really have a whole lot of evidence in the matter.




NatG said:


> He didn't ask a direct question. I've no kids, just understanding of what worked with me. I am 18.


Honestly I figured as much. I get what you're saying but a lot of it is just idealistic and not practical. Spend more years asking people who have kids, growing up and taking care of kids, having friends with spouses and families of their own, and you'll realize that generalizations on upbringing don't always apply and that children and parenting styles are different across the board. Don't go ruling things out you have no experience in so you really don't know if it works or not. Even if you were 40 and had a whole herd of kids it doesn't give you the right to make claims that people who strike their kids don't know what they're doing. People have different parenting styles.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You seriously need to re-read what you're saying. You're making horrid generalizations about people's lives and how they deal with their children. For every point you've made I personally know people who've grown up in environments that prove wrong everything you are saying. What you're saying reeks of a person who hears things but doesn't really have a whole lot of evidence in the matter.


 
What I'm saying is from life experience. Obviously there are exceptions, and personality definitely overrides upbringing. If you're predisposed to violence, then of course a kind upbringing won't override it. But it helps to steer in the right direction. Upbringing has a massive influence on what a person becomes. 

Obviously they're generalizations. Because I can't speak for every child from every upbringing.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Honestly I figured as much. I get what you're saying but a lot of it is just idealistic and not practical. Spend more years asking people who have kids, growing up and taking care of kids, having friends with spouses and families of their own, and you'll realize that generalizations on upbringing don't always apply and that children and parenting styles are different across the board. Don't go ruling things out you have no experience in so you really don't know if it works or not.


 
Again, I never said they applied 100% to every situation. I'm not ruling anything out, and of course there are many different perspectives. Mine is just a perspective gathered from what I've experienced and seen.

I believe smacking to be negative and that it will not lead to a healthy child. I've never seen it to be a good thing, though I will state once again that there are exceptions to every case.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> With regards to the person I am, that is exactly what I'd have done. If I'd been reared with smacking/belting, I doubt it'd have been different. Though obviously I can't prove that to you. 'kmanick' stated earlier in this thread that he was belted, and when he was able to he fought back. He obviously wasn't respecting his dad's authority, because he believed it to be wrong. As would I in that situation. I never said I can say for certain, but I'm 99.999% sure.



Maybe that is the case with Kmanick but there are several others here who were smacked and they have a perfectly healthy relationship with their parents. Different strokes for different folks...




NatG said:


> Your parents smacked you, and yes, you were fine with it. But you've also learned from their example that you can go ahead and smack your children. The downsides to it you're ignorant of.



Obviously there were no downsides to my discipline as i turned out to be a perfectly healthy and respectful man. I have my own opinions on the subject through life experiences with my parents and children. I understand the pro's and cons of the technique and i have come to a logical conclusion on what i will do if the situation ever arises. Ignorance is not an issue here as i am an intelligent individual and i choose to favour logic over ignorance. 

You're opinion is that of smacking and using physical punishment is wrong, you have never experienced it and so as a result you believe it should be completely outlawed. That is a fools decision because you arnt using logic and weighing up the experiences and opinions of your peers. It would be like you telling me i can't eat chocolate because the fat content could one day kill me or the sugar could give me diabetes. You haven't eaten chocolate so you are just fine. So you must be right.



NatG said:


> 'Troubled children' almost always come from disturbing backgrounds or were influenced by what they were experienced and what they saw. Take the lads in the photo earlier. They live on what looks like a council flat estate. Throughout their life they'll have experienced poverty and perhaps a low brow father who didn't instill moral values upon them at a young age. Thus, they turn to crime and violence for money and perhaps kicks. They think that is fine because they haven't had a good example set to them.



This is a misconception and if you had done your homework you would find that many troubled children come from middle to lower middle class families with a stable income. The papers tell you its the common workforce but in actual fact many people from council estates work toward bettering themselves. Only a select few are troublemakers with issues. In many cases experiencing poverty leads an individual to find a better life for themselves. The girl in the video comes from a wealthy family, so obviously it happens right across the board, not just in council estates. Thats a very conservative view of the social system you have there, you'd do well to do some research on the topic.

I come from a council estate, but when i was in my teens i moved out of the area. Once again i and many many other people from that area turned out fine and now have jobs in law, science and the public sector. You are generalizing people based on newspaper politics and slap dash facts. Trying to make yourself sound like you know what you mean and actually knowing what you say are two very different things indeed.



NatG said:


> Using violence on his daughter like that was _completely_ unneccessary. Perhaps he could've prevented her from access to the internet if she hadn't behaved. But no, because he is sadistic he decided to whip her with a belt.



Sadistic wouldn't be the word i would use. He went OTT yes, but maybe he tried taking the internet away from her. It was mentioned in the video and it didn't work. It wasn't completely unnecessary, you don't know the story so don't pass a judgement like that. Look at the overall picture. I don't believe what he did was completely right either, but i do think that the punishment would have been over a lot sooner if she had accepted it and learned from her mistake.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 2, 2011)

I can't really see what would justify an ass kicking like that...seriously.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

Mordacain said:


> And before that we had:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Difference being all those other people are grown men. And they had some sort of order in society. We live in an age now where our policing system should be able to handle people like this. In the 50's and 60's you could walk down the street and leave your door open without having to worry. That is an impossibillity now.


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> Difference being all those other people are grown men. And they had some sort of order in society. We live in an age now where our policing system should be able to handle people like this. In the 50's and 60's you could walk down the street and leave your door open without having to worry. That is an impossibility now.



I would argue that even if they were "grown men" in age they still had the mentality of a teenager. Regardless, while people could leave their doors open, people would still steal their shit.

There has never been this mythical age where people didn't have to fear some punk kid (whether an adolescent, teenager or young adult) breaking in and stealing their shit, beating them up, vandalizing their property, raping their women, etc. That kind of shit has been going on ever since homo-sapiens diverged from our oldest descendent. 

I'm not saying we should put up with it; the point of civilization is ultimately to enable humanity to evolve (IMO). I just don't think a trend against physical discipline is the cause.

In the south, there is no social trend against physical discipline, but there are just as many punk kids, gangs and general unsavory elements of society as anywhere else (in fact, more so than in other areas I've been).


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> Maybe that is the case with Kmanick but there are several others here who were smacked and they have a perfectly healthy relationship with their parents. Different strokes for different folks...


 
I agree 



> Obviously there were no downsides to my discipline as i turned out to be a perfectly healthy and respectful man. I have my own opinions on the subject through life experiences with my parents and children. I understand the pro's and cons of the technique and i have come to a logical conclusion on what i will do if the situation ever arises. Ignorance is not an issue here as i am an intelligent individual and i choose to favour logic over ignorance. You're opinion is that of smacking and using physical punishment is wrong, you have never experienced it and so as a result you believe it should be completely outlawed. That is a fools decision because you arnt using logic and weighing up the experiences and opinions of your peers. It would be like you telling me i can't eat chocolate because the fat content could one day kill me or the sugar could give me diabetes. You haven't eaten chocolate so you are just fine. So you must be right.


 
The downside to smacking and beating is that they lead to a fear based relationship between parent and child. 





> This is a misconception and if you had done your homework you would find that many troubled children come from middle to lower middle class families with a stable income. The papers tell you its the common workforce but in actual fact many people from council estates work toward bettering themselves. Only a select few are troublemakers with issues. In many cases experiencing poverty leads an individual to find a better life for themselves. The girl in the video comes from a wealthy family, so obviously it happens right across the board, not just in council estates. Thats a very conservative view of the social system you have there, you'd do well to do some research on the topic.
> 
> I come from a council estate, but when i was in my teens i moved out of the area. Once again i and many many other people from that area turned out fine and now have jobs in law, science and the public sector. You are generalizing people based on newspaper politics and slap dash facts. Trying to make yourself sound like you know what you mean and actually knowing what you say are two very different things indeed.


 
Of course there are troubled children from middle and lower middle class families. From upper I'd imagine aswell. Just like there are respectable people like yourself coming from council estates. There is _nothing_ wrong with coming from or living on a council estate. 

You get gangs on council estates because of poverty. Poverty leads to dissatisfaction and perhaps criminal behavior. It is hardly a conservative view because I'd be in favour of improving the lives of these people and setting them on the right track. 




> Sadistic wouldn't be the word i would use. He went OTT yes, but maybe he tried taking the internet away from her. It was mentioned in the video and it didn't work. It wasn't completely unnecessary, you don't know the story so don't pass a judgement like that. Look at the overall picture. I don't believe what he did was completely right either, but i do think that the punishment would have been over a lot sooner if she had accepted it and learned from her mistake.


 
I believe he is a rather sick man for what he did. If taking the internet didn't work, then he must find new means. It is appalling that he resorted to whipping her with a belt. Again, a fear based relationship displayed. If he can't sort her out through encouragement then he's doing something wrong.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

NatG said:


> The downside to smacking and beating is that they lead to a fear based relationship between parent and child.



This is what im trying to get at. You dont get a fear based RELATIONSHIP at all from it. It made made me aware that if i did something i knew was wrong then i would get punished for it. A telling off can only do so much sometimes, and i was a little shit sometimes. It made me understand that my father and mother were my role models and if they told me something was forbidden i wouldnt do it because i would get a clip. As i grew older the smacking did not need to be implimented because i learned that what they said was logical and had reasoning. At 16 she should know better than to disobay what her father was saying. I'm not condoning the extent he went to but sometimes these things have to be implimented in order to obtain an aknowledgement that some things simply must be obeyed.




NatG said:


> Of course there are troubled children from middle and lower middle class families. From upper I'd imagine aswell. Just like there are respectable people like yourself coming from council estates. There is _nothing_ wrong with coming from or living on a council estate.
> 
> You get gangs on council estates because of poverty. Poverty leads to dissatisfaction and perhaps criminal behavior. It is hardly a conservative view because I'd be in favour of improving the lives of these people and setting them on the right track.



Im not saying that you don't believe respectable people can come from poorer areas im saying research and confirm your facts before you state them as truth. Povery is an issue yes but it doesn't mean that every poor family abuses its children. I viewed it as a conservative opinion because it made you seem very narror minded about the issues regarding the working class. Whilst povery may lead to criminal behaviour a lot of pooper families understand and apreciate the importance of flesh and blood over wealth.




NatG said:


> I believe he is a rather sick man for what he did. If taking the internet didn't work, then he must find new means. It is appalling that he resorted to whipping her with a belt. Again, a fear based relationship displayed. If he can't sort her out through encouragement then he's doing something wrong.



Children at that age can always be difficult, especially ones with disabillities. Many times you cant make your children listen through verbal means and they choose to ignore you. You may have been a model child but many others arn't. And if she still acts in many regards like a child because of her dissabillity (and im not saying she does) then it may be acceptable to punish her like a child. He did not go on for 7 minutes, he went on for 2 and in that time he was telling her to accept her punishment and get it over with. Yes he went too far, especially with the verbal comments, but if talking to her wont work and he has tried on many occassions to stop her from doing wrong then a more stern method of punishment needs to be implicated. In general i find smacking to be an effective punishment. In this instance it wasnt applied the right way and it made the situation worse.


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> i can care less about the spank vs anti spank debate
> 
> i am more worried it took 7 years to get to the internet.
> 
> if she truly thought this was a problem, why didnt she use it instantly to get out of the house away from the "abuse"



That would actually be explained by the abuse itself. Its more a clear indicator that there was actual abuse going on as often, the abused will have been programmed to see this abusive behavior as something normal. Its only after the child becomes and adult and is able to leave the abusive home, perhaps has sought counseling for the other issues she now doubt had that she was able to realize the behavior was wrong. Particularly with child abuse; its evidence this was going on for a good long time IMO.

For instance, some friends of mine are trying to keep a girl that is being abused by her boyfriend from going back to him. The violence has been escalating over the last two years and the last time the dickbag cut her face all to hell with a knife, yet she continues to go back to the abusive dick.

Abuse is abuse, rather from a parent, or a significant other. It fucks with the brain's chemistry all to hell. Abused people are changed and don't have rational thought processes when it comes to their fight or flight instinct that tells someone to get away from a bad situation. The abused accept that fucked up situation as normal, some even are so screwed up from the abuse that they don't feel "right" without continuing to experience it.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> This is what im trying to get at. You dont get a fear based RELATIONSHIP at all from it. It made made me aware that if i did something i knew was wrong then i would get punished for it. A telling off can only do so much sometimes, and i was a little shit sometimes. It made me understand that my father and mother were my role models and if they told me something was forbidden i wouldnt do it because i would get a clip. As i grew older the smacking did not need to be implimented because i learned that what they said was logical and had reasoning. At 16 she should know better than to disobay what her father was saying. I'm not condoning the extent he went to but sometimes these things have to be implimented in order to obtain an aknowledgement that some things simply must be obeyed.


 
I see exactly where you are coming from. It worked that way in your case and that is great. However, the danger is there for it to be taken to abusive levels. Such as the case of my childhood friend I mentioned previously in the thread who was scared of his dad. 




> Im not saying that you don't believe respectable people can come from poorer areas im saying research and confirm your facts before you state them as truth. Povery is an issue yes but it doesn't mean that every poor family abuses its children. I viewed it as a conservative opinion because it made you seem very narror minded about the issues regarding the working class. Whilst povery may lead to criminal behaviour a lot of pooper families understand and apreciate the importance of flesh and blood over wealth.


 
Of course, there are respectable poor families, and not many are abusers. I'm sure there are lots of well off families who smack their kids. You do have to be aware though that poverty breeds violence and crime. These criminals need rehabilitation and help, though. Not punishment. They're simply victims of capitalism. 


> Children at that age can always be difficult, especially ones with disabillities. Many times you cant make your children listen through verbal means and they choose to ignore you. You may have been a model child but many others arn't. And if she still acts in many regards like a child because of her dissabillity (and im not saying she does) then it may be acceptable to punish her like a child. He did not go on for 7 minutes, he went on for 2 and in that time he was telling her to accept her punishment and get it over with. Yes he went too far, especially with the verbal comments, but if talking to her wont work and he has tried on many occassions to stop her from doing wrong then a more stern method of punishment needs to be implicated. In general i find smacking to be an effective punishment. In this instance it wasnt applied the right way and it made the situation worse.


I obviously don't agree with the punishment and I stand by the fact he is a rather sick man, but I see your point. I believe different means could've been found, though.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

@Mordacain: At the same time however she must have had some responce to the abuse as she filmed the event. It is puzzling that she would release it now however. How long is it till her father comes up for renewal of his term as a judge? I think its more a case of her wanting to totally fuck him up (which is understandable) publically than give the tape to a member of the autorities to deal with in a court of law.

@NatG: I do agree that people convicted of wrongdoing and violent youths need help. However i feel that if they had some serious order and enforcement in their lives then they wouldnt turn to crime. This is why im a huge supporter of national service. It teaches those who haven't been taught respect, and in the end this is what it boils down to. A lack of respect, whether it be for a parent who has asked for something or forbidden something or just common curtesy in the street and in public. We're missing that courtesy in society and i learned it through tellings off and the occasional clip round the ear! It can benefit others, not always harm.


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## kmanick (Nov 2, 2011)

Dan said:


> Maybe that is the case with Kmanick but there are several others here who were smacked and they have a perfectly healthy relationship with their parents. Different strokes for different folks...


 
There is quite a difference between "getting smacked" and getting whipped like an animal.
Getting smacked was never an issue with me, if I deserved it I took it.
Geting wailed on out of my fathers own frustrations was and is unacceptable behavior for any parent to level on their children.
Overall my dad was an allright guy, but as I've grown up (I'm in my 40's now) I've come to realize that he was just not 'parent material'. He just did not have the know how or the patience to deal with kids. 
My mom was much better at it and I had a very close relationship with her up until the day she died. (and she used to whack me with a big wooden soup spoon if I got out of line ).
but I'm very thankful for the lessons I learned from watching him and interacting with him, and it's made me very aware to not repeat the same mistakes he made with me and my brother, with my girls.
There is never a need to whip a child and yell swears at her like this guy was doing. "Never". If you are that pissed off at your kid about something you need to get in the car and go for a ride and cool down.
First of all 14 is way to old for a 'spanking' or should I say " a whooping"
If this is your approach to disciplining your child at this age, well.......you've already failed miserably. 
Time to rethink your approach.


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## Dan (Nov 2, 2011)

kmanick said:


> There is quite a difference between "getting smacked" and getting whipped like an animal.
> Getting smacked was never an issue with me, if I deserved it I took it.
> Geting wailed on out of my fathers own frustrations was and is unacceptable behavior for any parent to level on their children.
> Overall my dad was an allright guy, but as I've grown up (I'm in my 40's now) I've come to realize that he was just not 'parent material'. He just did not have the know how or the patience to deal with kids.
> ...



I completely agree with you on everything you've said here. When i made that comment i simply implied that the occasional clip round the ear and spanking was acceptable in some families. Not abuse at the level you unfortunately suffered (However i do like the idea of the big wooden soup spoon ).

Everybody learns from their parents previous mistakes, this much is true. But there is so much good you can learn from them. Your mother for instance even though the soup spoon came out you still loved her and understood why she used it. I'm not condoning the mans actions but like i previously stated maybe the issue with her dissabillity makes her act younger than she actually is and he still had to spank her at that age. I'm also not defending the man at all may i add. It just seems a little odd that this has come out now dont you think?


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> good point besides the fact that she knew it was wrong and filmed it, making your contention 100% nonsense when used to explain this specific girls actions



You completely missed my point. Abuse victims can know on some level that abuse is "wrong" but the person wouldn't act in a capacity to save herself until much later, until they are removed from the situation.

As in, enough was enough, and once she was free (and the risk of retaliation minimized), she realized she could strike back at the offending parent with this video she's secretly wanted to show for years.


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## tacotiklah (Nov 2, 2011)

I havent seen the video so I cant comment on it, but I can share my personal experience......

My dad beat the holy living shit out of me all the time (punching, kicking, and once attempted to strangle me to death with a dish towel). My mom never laid a hand on me when I lived with her, and I rarely got into even so much as an argument with her. But with my dad, I was always in trouble, and as a result, I learned to be a great liar and manipulator due to it becoming literally a survival instinct. Point is that all the beatdowns did, were to make me a more cautious troublemaker and also caused me to have severe PTSD for the rest of my life. 
Just judging from the quotes from this tape, he went into abuse. By all means spank your kid, but to lay into them and say those kinds of things to them shows a serious impulse control issues on the fathers behalf.


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> makes more sense,
> 
> but i still think the whole thing has turned from simple domestic abuse, to a conspiracy to gather lots of cash.
> 
> i mean simply she cant show it to authority's, she has to sensationalize to to just under a million views, to get exposure.



Well, personally I think she wanted to get some real revenge. She wanted to sensationalize to ruin her father's career and public life. I don't blame her if what we see in the video can be believed.

Regarding the statue of limitations on child abuse in Texas (didn't have time to do a proper search):

Statute of Limitations for Child Abuse in Texas


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## Mordacain (Nov 2, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> this was in arkansas hahahah



Police investigate Texas judge over video beating - seattlepi.com

Headlines all say "Texas Judge" am I missing something


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## groph (Nov 2, 2011)

Aransas County, Texas. If that exists. Does that place exist?


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## Hollowway (Nov 2, 2011)

Wow, I'm surprised how many people here think hitting a kid with a belt is acceptable. FYI, if you were whipped as a kid and think this is acceptable you didn't "turn out fine." I'm sure there are people in other countries that would say their sister was killed in an honor killing and it was fine. You don't punish non-violence with violence. And corporal punishment is illegal in the military, prisons, or against spouses. But for some reason it is permitted against children. The research is very clear - corporal punishment doesn't work. It has huge negative effects on the child's future. And the lack of corporal punishment has equally positive effects on the child's future. The correlation is not 100%, so people beaten as kids can turn out fine. But that's not the average.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 3, 2011)

Hollowway said:


> The research is very clear - corporal punishment doesn't work. It has huge negative effects on the child's future. And the lack of corporal punishment has equally positive effects on the child's future.


 
Links please?


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## Mordacain (Nov 3, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Links please?



Here's a couple from the APA:

Is Corporal Punishment an Effective Means of Discipline?

Parent's Use of Physical Punishment Increases Violent Behavior Among Youth

And a few others (including one that doesn't really have a for or against conclusion):

Parenting Expert Warns Against Physical Punishment

Should Parents Spank Their Kids?: Scientific American

Psychologists point out the futility and damage of corporal punishment

New study on corporal punishment.

http://behaviormod.info/2009/08/11/physical-punishment-repudiated/

I did find the actual meta-analysis of a couple of case studies, but they were over 500 pages in length and _real_ hard to digest


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## Hollowway (Nov 3, 2011)

Yeah, this is a pet topic of mine, so I have a couple (that Mordacain may have listed above - I didn't check those to see if they link the same stuff).

http://www.apa.org/pubs/journals/releases/bul-1284539.pdf

http://www.saiv.net/SourceBook/Storage/documents/doc_maurer.pdf

And I can't find the actual paper, but Dr. Harrient MacMillan did a cool study on psychiatric problems and addiction as correlated with spanking. 

I suppose I could find more, but I'm not sure how many are available just by Googling. Maybe on the APA, AMA sites? Or pubmed or something. I couldn't find any of MacMillan's stuff online other than excerpts from the studies.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 3, 2011)

Cool cool, thanks!


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## Mordacain (Nov 3, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> Cool cool, thanks!



No problem. My understanding of it is that's its by no means conclusive findings, but behavioral studies never are. Of course people are not constant at all, so that pretty much rules out true empirical testing, I'd think.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 3, 2011)

It worries me that some people feel so strongly about their own beliefs on this that they feel the need to diminish others to justify their own. Attacks on other people's attitudes are UNACCEPTABLE. We all believe slightly different things and anyone that can't get that needs to seriously get a grip.

I'm not arguing against evidence, nor am I talking about anyone on this page. I just wanted to remind the forum that we all have the responsibility of regulating ourselves and therefore not get carried away when we see something that we don't agree with.


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## Isan (Nov 3, 2011)

If my parents didnt spank me i would be such a prick .


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## Daggorath (Nov 3, 2011)

Dan said:


> Did we have this 20 years ago? NO. Children had respect for adults because they knew if they misbehaved they would get a clip round the ear or a spanking.



This is a growing cultural problem, where many of the young criminals of today didn't have a stable home environment. To reduce it to "well they didn't get smacked", is rather naive. It's to do with benefit culture, drugs and alcohol, broken homes, and many other socio-economic factors.

If we could have a little "nip round the ear" and that's it, then I'd be fine with it. Especially with young children who need instant warnings of danger via their actions. However, moderation in the acceptance of such a thing, makes extremists seem less extreme. Without your personal views on physical discipline, something like this would seem abhorrent. Yet, because of dogmatism, people are trying to create an argument to defend the judges actions. And all of them revolve around such nonsense that there isn't any other way of getting through to the child. This is my general view on society as a whole however. Punishment is a last resort; education and rehabilitation should prefix it. If your argument for what's right behaviour cannot be strengthened through education, logic and debate then you need to question why you believe it yourself.


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## AxeHappy (Nov 3, 2011)

That judge was not disciplining his daughter. I don't see how anybody could say he is. 

He was beating her. Discipline is _*never*_, _*ever*_ done in anger. It's done with a clear, level head with the aim to help the child learn. This is true regardless of the form of discipline (From a simple no, to threatening, to physical) and if you do it in anger you've crossed a line. 

There was a bunch of stuff that I wanted to comment on, but I've forgetting it, whilst doing my morning bus route, and I'm too lazy to go back and read it over again. 

But basically:
Physical discipline can be an extremely effective form of discipline, if used correctly. Most people have no idea how to correctly use negative re-enforcement to teach. These people should not use physical discipline. 

Physical discipline does not have nearly the negative effect that most studies nowadays _suggest_ it does otherwise the entire human race would have ceased to exist a very long time ago.

Anecdotal "evidence" is, as always, meaningless.


And some sort of related basic child rearing advice/logic that nobody seems to fucking know anymore:

If you're going to make a threat to your children you absolutely have to follow through on it or you lose all your authority. Once is all it takes. If you say, "Calm down or we're going home," you damn well better go home if they don't calm down.

Children have needs that need to be met, and they're the exact same needs as adults. Since children have no real means of meeting these needs themselves they will act out. Be able to judge this and help the child. 

Children are...children. A lot of people seem to forget this. They don't all have ADD, they're just being kids. 

Getting hurt is a huge part of how children learn. Let your kids live a little or they will grow up like much of the children who are now my age(25) did. Fucking college students.


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## ghostred7 (Nov 3, 2011)

AxeHappy said:


> If you're going to make a threat to your children you absolutely have to follow through on it or you lose all your authority. Once is all it takes. If you say, "Calm down or we're going home," you damn well better go home if they don't calm down.


This....so much this.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 3, 2011)

Dan said:


> I watched through the video and if im honest judging by what you guys were saying i expected it to be worse. When i was younger i sometimes got the belt, though not to the extent that that girl did. BUT i learned early on to accept my punshment and not fight it. I turned out fine and i love my parents dearly.
> 
> From what i gather; he carries on because his daughter doesn't want to be punished. So she is being reluctant to take such a punshment. I CAN understand this but i don't think it would have gone on for so long if she had just done as she was told. What you didn't tell people Groph was that its not continual, theres a lot of silence and a lot of her mother coming in and siding with her father. Explaining what she has done wrong. It doesn't last for 7 minutes continual beating at all.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed whole-heartedly.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 3, 2011)

For the record, I've been condoning spanking here, not trying to justify what the judge did in the incident in question, in case there was any confusion. Spanking is one thing, beatings are another.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 3, 2011)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> For the record, I've been condoning spaniking here, not trying to justify what the judge did in the incident in question, in case there was any confusion. Spanking is one thing, beatings are another.


 
We used the terms interchangeably in my house, but I think we had the same idea in mind... 

"Oooohhh... When mama sees that you gon' get a beatin'!"


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 3, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> We used the terms interchangeably in my house, but I think we had the same idea in mind...
> 
> "Oooohhh... When mama sees that you gon' get a beatin'!"


 


We only used "spanking." It was occasionally with a padde or a belt, but only ever to spank our butts. My parents also stopped spanking me at around third grade, when grounding became a more effective punishment. Of course, because I was grounded alot as a child, I think unlawful imprisonment is a-o-kay.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 3, 2011)

My dad stopped spanking me at the age where he thought I might be liable to try to fight back and cause bigger problems. At that point we started having VERY serious adult conversations which were intimidating as fuck at first, but I much preferred them to cowering in fear waiting for dad to get home.


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## Blake1970 (Nov 3, 2011)

Meh I've seen worse while shopping at the local Walmart. We use to get paddled in high school here in Texas all the time. I don't see what the big deal is with this stuff.


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## daemon barbeque (Nov 3, 2011)

Beating and cussing like that guy does will only educate someone to hate, to intrigue, to lie, to hide, to run away from the house and become a whore, to get into people's hands who knows exactly how to use the those kids as tools.

If something is clear, loving families with loving attitude to their children cause less psychopaths than families with child abuse. So much data is there, there isn't even a room to discuss if the guy was right, or if he even had the right to do what he did.

Hitting your kid with a well calculated and controlled force to make the point clear and warn is something different than beating them. The physical application of force is there not to hurt, damage the kid in any way, physically or mentally.

When my father acted as a Dick and forced me to eat something i didn't want to, I puked on his trousers, than he hit me in the head, and I still didn't eat. I didn't talk to him for a while and din't want to see him. He was like a tranger for me, who would force someone to eat what he doesn't want to. When I grew up, I didn't even listen to him when he was yelling, and he crossed the line with stupid arguments, I didn't even talk to him over 6 months. Now he is all well and respects my character. He learned to shut-up the hard way. So who educated whom here? The violent one, or the non violent one? I am sure, I could't educate my father with hittng him in the face. Ignoring his face had a better impact.


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## AxeHappy (Nov 3, 2011)

Blake1970 said:


> Meh I've seen worse while shopping at the local Walmart. We use to get paddled in high school here in Texas all the time. I don't see what the big deal is with this stuff.




As a ridiculously left-wing person I'm going to quote orb here:

Limp dicked Liberal Hippies. 


The idea that violence is wrong, and pain causes lasting harm. 

Another thing I wanted to say and just remembered:

Spanking/physical discipline when done correctly does not create a sense of fear towards the parent; but rather, towards the punishment itself. Is it worth doing some stupid shit? A respectful and loving relationship is still maintained. 

But again, most people don't understand how negative reinforcement works so it's gotten quite a bad rap lately.


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## Mordacain (Nov 3, 2011)

AxeHappy said:


> As a ridiculously left-wing person I'm going to quote orb here:
> 
> Limp dicked Liberal Hippies.
> 
> ...



Not really meaning to offend here, but lots of people confuse the idea of punishment with negative reinforcement, and its not. Negative reinforcement is conditioning by _removing _a stimulus. Punishment is adding a stimulus (albeit what people might consider having "negative" connotations. I had it wrong for a long time myself:

Negative Reinforcement - Operant Conditioning


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## BucketheadRules (Nov 3, 2011)

Haven't watched the video and probably won't.

My £0.02:

Beating anyone, let alone your teenage daughter, with a belt, for 7 minutes (or longer, we don't know) is FUCKED UP and the sick bastard should be prosecuted. Shit like this shouldn't happen. As others have said, it's not discipline so much as abuse.


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## Pooluke41 (Nov 3, 2011)

IMHO, There is no problem with spanking your kids, if there is a problem, if you spank them to get your frustrations out then I have a problem with it. But look at these kids on shows like "Supernanny" "Nanny 911" and these other generic nanny shows. The Nanny is the authority figure in the show, the kids respect her, not the parents, when the nanny goes, after a while I imagine the family goes back to the savage, rampant ways, it's only natural for kids or younger ones in society to rebel and test their boundaries, Look at animal packs, if one of the lesser animals acts up, the Alpha animals don't pander to the animals every need, they don't sit down with them and chat with them about why they are wrong and need to stop it, the animals lash out at the lesser animal, that animal learns its lesson and backs down. This doesn't just happen with wild animals, it happens with domesticated animals, My family have five German shepards (Cutest dogs ever by the way) , three bitches and two males, and the amount of times I've seen the Alpha bitch lashing out at a pup for acting up is so large I can't even count the times. The dogs don't do It out of Spite, they do it to help the pup learn. Not to say there isn't a place for Rational talking and one-on-one conversations with people, but if there are no boundries how far will the parent let the child go? The child will play up, the parent needs authority over the kid.

This guy Spanked his daughter for doing something he is totally against, he's a judge, he is a man of law, he's a guy that is trying to teach his daughter* not* to do something, 
I assume he's told her numerous times not to do it and she's just not listened too him, and then she has a camera set up as she thought "something was gonna happen" and then he came in to discipline her for something he's probably talked to her about, then she refuses the punishment and starts screaming more than I guess the average 14 year old girl would. Personally I think she didn't like her dad and was dramatising the whole thing to ruin him and to ruin his career.

Of course everyone has their own opinion but this is what I believe.

Also, my parents have only hit me to discipline me about twice, and I was being a little shit in those cases.


EDIT:

Look at these kids.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T_obaO46Bo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSq2sI5SMws


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 3, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> god DAMMIT I KNEW IT
> 
> "Hillary warned her father if he reduced her financial support, and took away her Mercedes automobile, which her father had provided, he would live to regret it. The post was then uploaded.
> 
> Daughter in beating video: Why I released it - TODAY People - TODAY.com


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## Dan (Nov 3, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> god DAMMIT I KNEW IT
> 
> "Hillary warned her father if he reduced her financial support, and took away her Mercedes automobile, which her father had provided, he would live to regret it. The post was then uploaded.
> 
> Daughter in beating video: Why I released it - TODAY People - TODAY.com



 Sounds about right, i knew there would be some level of personal gain in this. Whilst what he did went too far, the way this has all come about has been totally for the wrong reasons. A daughter and divorced mother wanting easy money.


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## Rev2010 (Nov 3, 2011)

Oh geez, watching that interview with the daughter and mother screams bullshit. The mother turning and putting 100% blame on the father saying brainwashing and control - give me a fucking break. Both of them have a motive for teaming up on him to get something. And the whole piece about the financial support and the car just seems to seal the real story. Even Matt Lauer was questioning why she's releasing it now and said the part about re-election when he's not going to be up for re-election again since he's serving his last 3 years.


Rev.


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## Sicarius (Nov 3, 2011)

NatG said:


> You don't teach your children to respect you by belting or smacking them. Nature tells us to do as we are done by, therefore a child who is not shown any respect by their parent and is subject to violence is not going to respect their parent's rules. If my father had done that to me, or even tried, I'd have punched his lights out!
> 
> I'd very much like to see a law against physical violence of any kind towards children. Parents must use encouragement and respect in order for their children to abide by rules. When growing up I showed respect to my mother because she was respectful and kind to me. It works both ways, you know.



I guess this is just the vast difference between cultures. Coming from a Baptist family, in Texas no less, I was treated like an adult. My whole life, I was taught to be respectful to my elders, and if I wasn't I'd get the shit beat out of me.

I've had worse, I know a lot of people have had worse. 

But honestly, saying that you'd hit your parent if they "disrespected" you by hitting you, or with corporal punishment, shows your immaturity due to your "spare the rod, spoil the child" household.

But that's just my view on it. 'Cause if I'd tried that on my dad, he's smack the shit out of me.


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## Aevolve (Nov 3, 2011)

The main thing that repulsed me was the things he was saying.
Welts and bruises (to a certain extent) heal. However saying shit like that to your daughter is psychologically damaging. Period.

I would much rather be hit with something than screamed at for an extended period of time. 

^ and as far as the "respect vs. physical consequences" thing goes.
Consequences/Sternness = Discipline and responsibility. Ability to handle situations in the future.
Respect and kindness from parents = Happiness, but general lack of discipline.
Which is more important?
The real key is to find a balance with both. Imo, your job as a parent ultimately is to raise a child who can and does think for themselves, take care of themselves, make their own choices based on sound judgement, and can succeed in their aspirations and find happiness.
This requires a certain amount of discipline, but as with most things- everything in moderation.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 4, 2011)

So the girl is a spoilt brat.

I knew there must be a bigger story.

In time we'll find out more information, but you can be certain that there is two sides to this story, as with any story.


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## TRENCHLORD (Nov 4, 2011)

What a DOUCHBAG!!!
As a freakin judge (especially a judge), you'd think he would be a little more philosophical and realize that a more practical approach (like locking her out of the home computer and grounding her until she began complying with house rules) could work at least as well, and probably much better.

There's a time and place and situation for a little heat on the seat, but come on.
I wouldn't be at all suprised if it were to come out soon that he visits S&M sex clubs or something real perverted like that.

Also, I never have agreed with using a pain weapon on a child. I guess I was just lucky enough to have a father who could simply scare us boys into compliance with his voice, and an occasional finger to the chest if we really deserved a mental beatdown. At least the next time I'd try much much harder to not get caught at whatever mischief I chose to indulge, lol.


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## The Reverend (Nov 4, 2011)

This isn't discipline. Think about about the concept of self-discipline. Does the father exhibit that? I think not. I'm honestly not against spanking or whatever, but there's a certain way it should be handled, and this douche didn't do it correctly. He's not stabbing her with a butter knife, but he's not punishing her either. What he's doing is demeaning her. There is no reason an educated man should speak to his daughter that way, no matter what she did. Does anyone think the lesson she took away from that incident is that she shouldn't download music illegally? Or do you think she came away from that carrying bitterness and resentment towards her father inside? Full story or not, I think finding a rational base for his actions would require some willfully faulty reasoning. He did not accomplish any of the goals implied in the word punishment. He simply vented his emotions onto her body. The mother, weak as she is, tried to add her two cents in, but it's really pointless to try and show someone the error of their ways when the situation is that emotionally charged. 

What everyone here failed to notice is that the type of discipline you administer should be based on what your child responds to. There is no single method that works for every kid in the world, or else parents would be using it constantly. If you use physical discipline, does it not serve as that same negative stimuli a time-out or grounding does? All you have to do is use it in a calm, instructive, controlled manner. It's not about revenge, anger, or retribution. It's about consequences. After all, I was once sent to my room. Not a big deal, right? Pretty harmless? I thought so too, at least before I started going insane from the isolation two weeks later. My point is that any style of punishment can be abused. If you love your kids, develop a method that works for them, instead of falling into the trap of assuming that what you were raised with is the best way since it resulted in you. It really, really depends on the child.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 4, 2011)

Guys even if she did something that bad would you really hit a girl that hard? Who cares if it's justified or not because that's over the top. 

I'm definitely up for a good beating once in a while but cmon.


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## daemon barbeque (Nov 4, 2011)

So the guy is not just a violent prick, he also chose the wrong woman and raised a greedy daughter. Epic lose.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Nov 4, 2011)

That's a really good point too, look at how she turned out despite that beating.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 4, 2011)

BucketheadRules said:


> Haven't watched the video and probably won't.
> 
> My £0.02:
> 
> Beating anyone, let alone your teenage daughter, with a belt, for 7 minutes (or longer, we don't know) is FUCKED UP and the sick bastard should be prosecuted. Shit like this shouldn't happen. As others have said, it's not discipline so much as abuse.


 
Didn't someone already mention that it didn't go on for 7 minutes straight--only that the video itself was 7 minutes long?


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 4, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> That's a really good point too, look at how she turned out despite that beating.



Do you mean you think she's grown up as a balanced young lady or a spoilt brat?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 4, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Do you mean you think she's grown up as a balanced young lady or a spoilt brat?


 
I took it as the latter.


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## Sicarius (Nov 4, 2011)

Of course she's a spoiled brat. A judge in a county like that, is going to make a nice living, and provide nicer things for his family. She's 23, and got uppity.

In all honesty, she needs another whuppin'.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 4, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> I guess this is just the vast difference between cultures. Coming from a Baptist family, in Texas no less, I was treated like an adult. My whole life, I was taught to be respectful to my elders, and if I wasn't I'd get the shit beat out of me.
> 
> I've had worse, I know a lot of people have had worse.
> 
> ...


 
I agree, it is due to culture differences. I'm sorry if my statement comes off as immature. Remember that was in relation to the hypothetical situation of my father whipping me with a belt, not any other. If I'd been smacked, I wouldn't have done that. 

I wouldn't expect my hypothetical child to put up with being whipped with a belt, because I view it as child abuse and I reckon they would too. Nor would I ever do such a thing to my child. 

I was never spoilt as a child, just never had a finger laid upon me. I do remember being sternly told off for things, and I took heed of what my mother would say because I wanted to improve my behaviour.


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## Sicarius (Nov 4, 2011)

Unless she was doing that to you in your teen years, there's no child in the world that self aware of their actions that only a stern talking to would want them to change.

Unless your mother was the queen of Irish Guilt, then I could see it.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 4, 2011)

I need to make my stance clear as some people on my rep board seem to have misunderstood.

I do not condone violence but I don't believe in hard-and-fast rules either.

Everyone is entitled to have their own beliefs. While I am generally a Left Liberal, I also believe in personal judgement and I don't see why this guy shouldn't be granted that either.

A conflict of interests for him given the whole story? Perhaps. But we don't know the whole story yet, nor is it likely that we will know the entire story.

I personally feel sorry for the guy.


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## UnderTheSign (Nov 4, 2011)

And this, y'all, is why some people just shouldn't have kids at all.


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## Dvaienat (Nov 4, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> Unless she was doing that to you in your teen years, there's no child in the world that self aware of their actions that only a stern talking to would want them to change.
> 
> Unless your mother was the queen of Irish Guilt, then I could see it.


 
When I mentioned a 'stern talking', then it would be from around 9+. On the rare occasion I did something she disapproved of, I'd get a stern talking and would take heed of what she said.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 4, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> Of course she's a spoiled brat. A judge in a county like that, is going to make a nice living, and provide nicer things for his family. She's 23, and got uppity.
> 
> In all honesty, she needs another whuppin'.


 
** Read wrong the first time **

Even at 16 she really should have been mature enough that her parents don't even need to come at her like that.


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## Sicarius (Nov 4, 2011)

Yeah, I have a tendency to be confusing.

Man, I've been there. Granted I stopped getting whipped when I was 16, 'cause I was already bigger than both of my parents. 

I've been hit with a keyboard for mouthing off -_-, and yea sometimes the belt hit me in the small of the back, but it wasn't intentional, it's a fuckin' belt and it moves when swung, it's not always going to be spot on. I took it like a man, and either learned my lesson, or I'd get it again.

I find it rather reassuring to find others from families that used love and strong discipline to raise them. We're all fine, and presumably well rounded.

Sometimes it doesn't work, and sometimes it does. Articles and research like the ones posted, typically don't go for a broader pool, but focus on those that have already been in trouble, and try to find a link to corporal punishment, and when they find it, they automatically pin it on the parents, instead of placing the blame for the person's own predicament on the individual. Like it should be.


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## daemon barbeque (Nov 4, 2011)

Any individual who gets damaged in childhood carries the scars. It never heals totally. If you burned your hand by touching something hot, you know the feeling forever. If your mom or dad abuses you, you carry it with you forever. There is no "rounding up" of it. You might end up as a normal person, and be strong enough to stay "minimal effected" by the abuse, but not everyone can do that.
In some posts here, people claim it "getting it like a man". This even shows how hard it is to cope with the feeling of that punishment. You convince yourself that the pain is normal and you can cope with it. So you actually accept it as an unnormal thing, and find away to get minimally effected.

There is really no room for physical punishment. Nor do we need heavy yelling and discrimination. None of this fit the "family" description, where love, care and respect are the rules.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 4, 2011)

Well I think that would depend on what you call abuse and judging from the responses in this thread I'd say that some would consider what's seen in the video to be abuse and some do not. Further, whether it was the case or not and whether she carries said scars or not, the comments regarding the video of her speaking on the incident don't make it sound like that's her true motivation for bringing this to light either. It's simply easy to play the victim when you catch shit like this on tape bc there are a handful of ppl that will already be on your side. Now it may be that this jacked her up in the head, but I, like Dave, would like to see both sides of the coin.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 4, 2011)

Are people really negrepping people over this?  For Christ's sake people, opinions, we all have them. Stop getting emotional over someone's opinion from the internet.


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## Tjore (Nov 5, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I need to make my stance clear as some people on my rep board seem to have misunderstood.
> 
> I do not condone violence but I don't believe in hard-and-fast rules either.
> 
> ...



I just had to respond to this.

We do not know the whole story yet - right.
However, this is a human being that is feeling a shit ton of pain and is scared as shit because her father is screaming at hear using foul language, fucking punching her with a belt repidietly. Both mentally and phisically she gets tortured for doing something that appearently is wrong.
No matter what she has done is wrong, do you feel OK with him using this solution for pnishing her? If he hit her once with the belt, this would be different. But he hits her in a total of 22 times, while she screams out her pain through it all. Considering that this is also her father, that is fucking cold.

She probbably did something wrong, but the solution for punishment is fucking awful. This could be solved in a different way. Using physical violence at your own 16 year old daughter..? 
The father could at least be professional and mature about it.
He's even a judge.


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## Dickicker (Nov 5, 2011)

ill beat that dudes ass right now


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 5, 2011)

Chris-T said:


> I just had to respond to this.
> 
> We do not know the whole story yet - right.
> However, this is a human being that is feeling a shit ton of pain and is scared as shit because her father is screaming at hear using foul language, fucking punching her with a belt repidietly. Both mentally and phisically she gets tortured for doing something that appearently is wrong.
> ...



Punching her with a belt repidietly, o rly?

She's not being tortured, she's being punished. Whether it was a long time coming or not - who knows, who cares? This is NONE OF OUR FUCKING BUSINESS. 

He is a judge yes, so shouldn't you be giving him the benefit of the doubt? Or are all people in positions of power automatically evil?


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## Dan (Nov 5, 2011)

daemon barbeque said:


> Any individual who gets damaged in childhood carries the scars. It never heals totally. If you burned your hand by touching something hot, you know the feeling forever. If your mom or dad abuses you, you carry it with you forever. There is no "rounding up" of it. You might end up as a normal person, and be strong enough to stay "minimal effected" by the abuse, but not everyone can do that.
> In some posts here, people claim it "getting it like a man". This even shows how hard it is to cope with the feeling of that punishment. You convince yourself that the pain is normal and you can cope with it. So you actually accept it as an unnormal thing, and find away to get minimally effected.
> 
> There is really no room for physical punishment. Nor do we need heavy yelling and discrimination. None of this fit the "family" description, where love, care and respect are the rules.



See this is where a lot of you are going totally wrong. I'm not picking on you here Daemon, just you were the last person to quote it. But none of us here are actively condoning EXACTLY what the guy did. We are simply saying that getting a clip round the ear or getting a spanking is fine for a young individual. 

Going back to your quote "If you burned your hand by touching something hot, you know the feeling forever" This is true. If a child gets spanked for doing something wrong after numerous verbal warnings they will know next time they attempt to do something wrong the feeling of being spanked and they will decide to choose against it. That is perfectly acceptable. In the long run the parent generally has the childs best interests at heart. 

Maybe not in the case of this video but even so the judge doesn't beat the child for 7 minutes. Nor does he beat her in an overly savage way. Neg repping people over this is silly. People bring kids up in the way they see fit. Am i going to listen to some of you here with regards to this topic with my own kids? Hell no. It's my children and i know whats best for them, keep your nose out . At the same time though i dont think you will find myself or most of the other guys pro-spanking telling you guys how to raise your children either. 

It's a touchy subject. And i feel its best that people just accept each others opinions on it. Calling us 'Damaged' in some way though is a rather crass way of telling us we arn't fit to make our own decisions on what we feel is best for our kids. I am damaged in no way because of what my parents did to me, i love them dearly and they love me the same. They were firm but fair and its turned me into the well rounded, indipendant and confident person i am today. If you don't think thats right then IMHO you can fully shove your opinion right up your ass


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## Sicarius (Nov 5, 2011)

I'm condoning exactly what the Judge did.

and to do it again, since she didn't learn her lesson the first time.

23 years old, still living off daddy's money, driving a car she doesn't deserve, and when he says enough is enough, she pulls this?

time to get a switch.


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## daemon barbeque (Nov 5, 2011)

Dan said:


> See this is where a lot of you are going totally wrong. I'm not picking on you here Daemon, just you were the last person to quote it. But none of us here are actively condoning EXACTLY what the guy did. We are simply saying that getting a clip round the ear or getting a spanking is fine for a young individual.
> 
> Going back to your quote "If you burned your hand by touching something hot, you know the feeling forever" This is true. If a child gets spanked for doing something wrong after numerous verbal warnings they will know next time they attempt to do something wrong the feeling of being spanked and they will decide to choose against it. That is perfectly acceptable. In the long run the parent generally has the childs best interests at heart.
> 
> ...



Well, every child getting raised is a "business" of whole society. So many criminals out there, all "left" to be raised right and failed 
So yeah, it's my business how anyone raises their kids, since we all live and interact together.
I did't say all of you are damaged, I say you coped with the damage well. If you read my first post in this thread, you would see how my father acted and how that worked out in the long run. His Father was a prick, he was better than his father, but still got some bad sides. It's like a filter in each generation, and I am doing better than my father.


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## daemon barbeque (Nov 5, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> I'm condoning exactly what the Judge did.
> 
> and to do it again, since she didn't learn her lesson the first time.
> 
> ...





Sicarius said:


> I'm condoning exactly what the Judge did.
> 
> and to do it again, since she didn't learn her lesson the first time.
> 
> ...



So can't you see that that father's actions, the way he raised his kid and punished her didn't help but made everything worse?

The guy failed, and still fails.

Married wrong woman

Raised bad daughter

Can't control the family or his temper

Get caught/taped by doing a crime...

And he is a judge...

With all those bad judgements in his life, he still "is" the man to judge about peoples futures... That's scary


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## Sicarius (Nov 5, 2011)

There was no crime committed. In Texas, parents still have the right to raise their child as they see fit.

If they start punching and actually assaulting the child, that's a different story.

However, spanking a child with a belt, isn't assault. 

I've seen what happens when parents don't discipline children, and I refuse to allow my future children to act like uncivilized savages.

Are you honestly saying that one recorded spanking equals a total failure as a parent? Because it didn't change her from being a sniveling, spoiled bitch?

Can't change a personality with force, bro. As a parent, all you can do is hope she makes the right decisions in life. 

I think the real questions we should be asking is after that little whuppin' if she downloaded anything again while she lived in his house, since that's what the whole thing was about.

If she didn't, then what he did worked.

Also, demanding a Judge to have perfect judgement in every situation is beyond human capability. No one is able to accomplish this.


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## Explorer (Nov 5, 2011)

The judge himself made it clear that it wasn't about trying to instill a lesson, but about how she was making him mad; he was taking out his anger physically on someone smaller than him. That moves it beyond corporal punishment to abuse. 

The fact that his language was so stereotypical of every abusive relationship trope is amazing.

----

There's an idea which lies at the core of most bodies of law: everyone has a divine animal right to preserve their own life and health when threatened. I don't understand why a big deal is being made that someone would react in a way which is recognized by so many bodies of law.

I also find it humorous that a lot of people are on board with the judge's actions in the video, but have been calling NatG out for his being willing to defend himself. *laugh*

----

Honestly, if that was a film of a foster child, and of a foster father beating the shit out of his foster daughter while using that language, would any jurisdiction say that was a good or even borderline acceptable environment? 

This, of course, is from an actual parent who *didn't* beat his kid. There was one time where I swatted a diapered backside (just once, no yelling, no belt) because of said backside approaching an outlet with a fork; limitations of language didn't allow a reasoned dialog, and the risk was too high to not impose a trauma to prevent a repeat. That little face turning towards me, thinking it was playful, but melting into tears upon seeing my stern expression. 

I felt bad about it... so clearly I'm not the admirable kind of man that judge guy is. *laugh* My kid didn't do drugs or go to jail, to the amazement of many here on SS.org. *laugh*

If it's not apparent already to anyone reading my posts, I'm more than twice the age of the majority of members here. My kid is older than most of you as well. I come here to talk about certain aspects of music, but some topics just generate interest.

I've got to ask, though... of all those who feel compelled by that video to defend corporal punishment, how old are you, and how many kids do you have? If you don't have any kids yet, what makes your opinion on corporal punishment any more valid than others without kids? 

----

I do believe that kids learn that hitting is fine in the same circumstances they've been hit... do onto those who can't defend themselves. That's why they don't hit adults, but go after those who are smaller then them. Am I the only one aware of that aspect of bullying? 

*The fact that she found she had power over her dad, and acted on it, means she learned that lesson well, right? And isn't that the desired result, that she learn? *

There's also a weird phenomenon where someone loves and defends their abuser. Stockholm Syndrome is one aspect of this, just as abused women and prostitutes exhibit this with regards how they defend and love their abusers and pimps. 

Sadly, girls who get abused often find it acceptable in a life partner. "He beats/cuts/tries to kill me because he loves me!" 

----

BTW, agents of the law are definitely held to a higher standard. That's why you can't become a cop if you have a felony record, for example.


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## Sicarius (Nov 5, 2011)

To be honest, I don't really give a shit about how someone raises their child.

Spank them or don't, I don't care.

But I'm going to defend the right of the parent to do what they think it right.

It's no one else's business.

The fact that other people are in an outcry about how someone disciplined their own child, and how *their* way is the more correct way, makes me sick.

Have your opinion, fine. But don't jump on a high horse because it's not your way.

The main reason why you can't be a felon and be a police officer is because by being an ex-con, you lose your right to bear arms, (and several other rights) which is pretty important if you're a police officer.

Hell, as a felon, you can't really do much of anything in the professional world, like own a business.

Is he making her bathe in bleach? Is he physically abusing her by punching, or kicking, or any other actual form of abuse? No. It's not child abuse. I may not be as liberal minded as I'd like to have originally thought, but I'm tired of all of this "spare the rod, spoil the child" shit.


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

The one thing that irritates the shit out of me about new age parents, is how little they think with common sense.

God forbid a parent has to actually spank their child in public for acting up and not listening. Because as soon as New Age mom or dad sees hand touch bottom they're on the phone with 911 to report child abuse, and they let the whole fucking world know about it.

Those people need to get the fuck off their moral high horse and mind their own god damn business. 

If you allow your child to screech and yell and scream in the middle of the grocery store, or just generally when you're out shopping, and you do nothing to make them stop. You are what is wrong with this country now.

How would you react if your 6 year old just stabbed a computer monitor with a screw driver because he lost at a video game?
Still gonna give Jr. a stern look and talking to? Or are you going to be pissed off, because that little jerk just stabbed a computer monitor and you're going to wear his ass out?

Oh, I forgot, Jr. is too precious to have a "lifetime of scars" and you're going to be "better than your father." 

I'd honestly like to see how many dads that have spanked their kids say they did it when they weren't mad at them because they did something to deserve the spanking.

Because you don't do it when you're fucking happy with them, that's for damn sure.

But, I'm not trying to force my view on you. That's how I see it. If you think what you are doing is what is best for your child, then please, carry on. Because living in America you can do that.


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## Explorer (Nov 6, 2011)

Time for some reduction to absurdity.



Sicarius said:


> To be honest, I don't really give a shit about how someone raises their child.
> 
> Spank them or don't, I don't care.
> 
> ...



I suspect and am hoping you don't actually mean that, but instead just don't recognize that you have limits.

For example, if the parent thinks it's right to rape a child with a broom handle, I don't think you'd defend the right of that parent to do what they think is right, with it being no one else's business.

----

You're right, the felony conviction was a bad example. I was trying to get at the idea that those in authority should be allowed the same tolerance for bad behavior as others, which isn't true. That's why you have background checks for various positions. 

Even fire fighters can't have theft convictions, and they're not using firearms. 

BTW, I'm a little surprised I didn't find a lot of stories about those damn New Age people falsely calling 911. You'd think at least Fox News would have done some stories on this. Could you post links?

Or... is this a hypothetical, where you're worried that it *might* happen? Because I'd rather have police involved when there *might* be an assault happening than have them *not* involved because there miight *not* be. 

(I'm really hoping you backpedal on that "whatever the parent decides" thing, rather than defend it to the extreme....)


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Time for some reduction to absurdity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, that's one way to completely misconstrue what I was saying... Are you honestly saying that? Because that's absurd. I've said plenty that actual abuse and assault is wrong, and you even saying something like that reconfirms my hate of parents that don't think with common sense...

I've seen it happen in stores, parents verbally lambasting others for spanking their child. I've seen parents complain to store clerks that a parent spanked a child, and reported it as child abuse, and the clerks called the cops. Hang around up scale shopping areas, and you might see it happen, might not. It actually happened in one of the stores I worked at. Some older upper class lady saw a mom pop a kid on the butt because it wouldn't listen, and when the kid started crying (as they do, for fuck all), she went and reported it to the other manager on duty that the parent was actually abusing the child. Lady was pissed that they didn't call 911, and did it her self after they had left. It was a joy to deal with.

I have a friend that was my store manager a while ago, and we got on this topic, of spanking in public, and he actually steps in and makes people stop, because he doesn't like it. It's interesting because he identifies himself as a conservative. But to each his own. I don't do anything because I can tell the difference between some kid getting a spanking and some person about to haul off and beat the fuck out of their kid, because I've been there.


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## The Reverend (Nov 6, 2011)

Isn't it kind of a generally understood principle that acting while you're angry isn't acting under optimal conditions? Let's say that's agreed upon. Now, and this arguable, if you're a parent, raising your child is the most important thing in your life, and discipline of some sort is essential to that task. Would disciplining your child while angry be the best parenting technique? Don't rationalize or justify, just answer the question with a yes or no response.

If you said no, I'd agree with you. If you said yes, I'd have to encourage you to think with an open, honest mind about that question. Try to come up with a well-reasoned answer to the question "Why is disciplining your child when you're angry better than disciplining your child when you're not angry?"

I don't want to be overly-presumptuous, but I don't think you can make a concrete argument for that case. 

With that in mind, watch the video. Is the judge angry? I'd venture to say he is. Was this the most efficient and effective way to teach his daughter not to download stuff illegally? IMO, no. Now, it's true that we're not party to both sides of the story. For all we know, angry words and a belt could've been the only way to reach that girl when she was 16, but I honestly don't think it was. Keep in mind, while I'm not personally big on spanking my children (or rather, I won't be), I'm not against it. This, however, is not an example of a rational response to stimuli.

EDIT:

Sic, I also disagree with your view that how people raise their kids is 100% off-limits. In a perversion of the Hobbesian view of the social contract, being part of a society means that you give up certain rights in the understanding that you'll be guaranteed the ones you value more. I think parenting should fall under that broad, probably misinterpreted statement of mine. Parents shouldn't be able to raise their kids however they want, because enough bad parents exist for it to affect society at large. Therefore, certain rights, including the right to beat the fuck out of your kids (remember, we're thinking Hobbes here) have to be sacrificed for order, sustainability, and safety to be more prevalent. It's pretty clear that the judge didn't do the greatest parenting job if his daughter grew up to be a fucking bitch, and while a certain amount of that is genetic, more of it has to do with the environment she grew up in. If he was beating her while screaming about how she's not doing enough charity work to help the less-advantaged, I'm not sure she'd be pulling this petty kind of nonsense. 

Also, who gets that mad because your daughter was downloading shit on the internet? I mean really?


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## Evil7 (Nov 6, 2011)

Talking about hitting her in the face with the belt was just wrong. 
Makes you curious if he ever lost his temper to go that far before. 

The wild unaimed swings that may have hit her arms when she was sitting down = a temper lost / taking it too far in an attempt to just hit her anywhere to make her receive the ass beating on the ass where he thinks it counts.

All the other hits did not count? " I will hit you with this belt until you take an ass whoopin" lol isnt that sort of backwards..... Just a little? 

I think the girl attempted to make it worse / not listen, because she had planed to video tape it / had it all set up...... 

BUT. Im sure she did this because he had taken it too far before. 

From the judge's actions and words.. I suspect he has been more abusive then what was caught on tape.

I see Verbal and Physical abuse. Not the most extreme case, but it is there.


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## daemon barbeque (Nov 6, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> There was no crime committed. In Texas, parents still have the right to raise their child as they see fit.



Accept it's not raising, it's assault.
And for a very important perspective abourght right and wrong. Wheter it's in Texas or somewhere lese, Laws come and go, they change. All the time. It was okay to have slaves, now it isn't. 
Same goes for child abuse. The guy clearly is mad and uses force and verbal abuse. I hope he get's charges and loses his job as a Judge. Maybe he can become an actor for Action movies or an SM actor in Adult business. But being judge is absolutely out of his league, since he can't really control his judgements.


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## The Reverend (Nov 6, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> i wonder how everyone not only here but in general, would feel if it was a normal 16 year old man DL'ing icp music, wearing the clown makeup as he was belted.
> 
> or if a 16 year old white supremacist got the same belting for a nazi speech download.
> 
> ...





It actually is worse because she's a girl, he's a judge, and there was belt. People here have tended to forget that girls are emotionally speaking more sensitive. They also tend to be less conditioned to pain, though I think their pain threshold is slightly higher than that of men. So yes, it's quite different than beating a teenaged boy. I'm not even going to comment on the Medea's belt thing. 

I think you completely missed the point in every possible way a point could've been missed here. 

A petty man raised a petty daughter, that's clear. A demanding, willful father shouldn't be surprised when his daughter demands willfully to have her allowance restored. One would think that a loving, concerned parent wouldn't an out-of-context video spread around, unless you're willing to say that he cares so much for his daughter that he was willing to have his livelihood taken away just to please her.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 6, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> A petty man raised a petty daughter, that's clear. A demanding, willful father shouldn't be surprised when his daughter demands willfully to have her allowance restored. One would think that a loving, concerned parent wouldn't an out-of-context video spread around, unless you're willing to say that he cares so much for his daughter that he was willing to have his livelihood taken away just to please her.



Do we know that either of them is petty? I'm willing to bet that if one of them is shrewd, it's the judge. You're going on the assumption that this guy doesn't know what is best for his daughter (despite what we have seen), as something taken out of context is far too easy to be misunderstood. 

Perhaps he didn't care that it was spread on the internet because he had faith in his story? He may have (perhaps foolishly) assumed that a 23 year old girl who works in a games store would not be believed over an established judge. In the video he said he did not want a computer in the house, so if that is still the case and he is not tech savvy he was perhaps not aware of how much damage the uploading of this video would cause him.

All of the above is speculation though, of course, but the fact that this video was made _seven years ago_ really bugs me.


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## The Reverend (Nov 6, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Do we know that either of them is petty? I'm willing to bet that if one of them is shrewd, it's the judge. You're going on the assumption that this guy doesn't know what is best for his daughter (despite what we have seen), as something taken out of context is far too easy to be misunderstood.
> 
> Perhaps he didn't care that it was spread on the internet because he had faith in his story? He may have (perhaps foolishly) assumed that a 23 year old girl who works in a games store would not be believed over an established judge. In the video he said he did not want a computer in the house, so if that is still the case and he is not tech savvy he was perhaps not aware of how much damage the uploading of this video would cause him.
> 
> All of the above is speculation though, of course, but the fact that this video was made _seven years ago_ really bugs me.



It's pretty obvious to me that they're both petty people. Contextual clues, and all that. You don't haggle with an entitled-feeling daughter like his without almost necessarily being petty, and the fact that she released this only now proves that she's petty. It's also hard for me to imagine any sort of context in which this man's actions would be justified, especially as he says multiple times why he's doing what he's doing. 

I also don't think he lives under a rock. Everyone in an industrialized nation knows how powerful the internet can be, as well as how fast it can create scandals. It seems more likely that he said he didn't care about the video during a fight over money with his daughter.


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## CrushingAnvil (Nov 6, 2011)

Whether you consider his actions 'child abuse' - there was absolutely no reason to do that to her. If you can give me a good reason for a father beating his daughter, I'll suck your dick. 

Bottom line: It achieved absolutely nothing. It's a savage, archaic way of teaching someone a lesson specifically when you consider her alleged wrongdoings.


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## Tjore (Nov 6, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Punching her with a belt repidietly, o rly?
> 
> She's not being tortured, she's being punished. Whether it was a long time coming or not - who knows, who cares? This is NONE OF OUR FUCKING BUSINESS.
> 
> He is a judge yes, so shouldn't you be giving him the benefit of the doubt? Or are all people in positions of power automatically evil?



No matter what his position is, what he does in the vid is wrong.
I care for any person feeling pain. The dad could've restrained her from using the computer or make her grounded. If you see the full video, clearly, none of these unphysical solutions for punishment were in use.
No matter why he does this, he is a fucking power-tripped douchebag that doesn't deserve to be a father.


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## Rev2010 (Nov 6, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I also find it humorous that a lot of people are on board with the judge's actions in the video, but have been calling NatG out for his being willing to defend himself. *laugh*



I think you've mistaken where this whole debate has gone. Myself and several others that are disagreeing with NatG are merely saying a spanking shouldn't be outlawed. What the judge does in the video clearly went too far, I have no argument against that. For one, there's the verbal abuse part. Two, I personally wouldn't whip my kid (if I had one) with a belt. Matter of fact, I wouldn't use any object by my hand. I also would not be spanking or hitting my 16 year old unless he did something intentional that was seriously fucked up... like try to burn down the house, or destroy shit of mine on purpose. Then I probably would kick his ass.

The point here is the debate in this thread has moved off a bit from what the judge did to simply being able to physically discipline one's child. NatG is for making it an illegal offense to even spank your kid and that I am totally against. And from the number of people responding to him here he is quite out numbered. He also does not have any kids and is 18 years old. Not saying his opinions aren't valid, just that there's a chance his opinions on this might change if he had kids and was older.

Again, most of us here are saying we definitely do not condone the judge's actions, but we are saying it's ridiculous to make it illegal to physically discipline your own child in any way shape or form.


Rev.


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## Rev2010 (Nov 6, 2011)

CrushingAnvil said:


> If you can give me a good reason for a father beating his daughter, I'll suck your dick.



If I had a daughter and she maliciously and intentionally erased my DAW and deleted all my ghost backups and smashed all my gear because I wouildn't raise her allowance or whatever other reason I would say that would warrant a beating from hell.

Or what about those kids that kill a parent in their sleep? If my daughter killed my wife she would die too. Or how about something like in Ferris Beuller - taking out the Ferrari and trashing it? That would get an ass kicking and I can't see why anyone would think it wouldn't warrant that.

So, how bout next Thursday for that blow job then? 


Rev.


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## Scar Symmetry (Nov 6, 2011)

Chris-T said:


> No matter what his position is, what he does in the vid is wrong.
> I care for any person feeling pain. The dad could've restrained her from using the computer or make her grounded. If you see the full video, clearly, none of these unphysical solutions for punishment were in use.
> No matter why he does this, he is a fucking power-tripped douchebag that doesn't deserve to be a father.



It's not black and white dude, not many things are.

You keep calling judgement on a guy you don't know and I'll keep refraining from thinking in absolutes.


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## Sephiroth952 (Nov 6, 2011)

My dad hit me with the belt when I was younger and I was a quick learner. But he only ever hit me 2-4 times, it was enough. I condone in full disciplining you child but this is disgusting, even worse when the mom came in with a belt of her own to beat her along side her father. If my mom or brother ever saw my dad doing something like this to me there would be helll to pay, and this man deserves any punishment he gets.


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## Sephiroth952 (Nov 6, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> so no punishment at all because he isnt up for reelection ever because he retires after his term in 3 years, and texas doesn't prosecute these cases after 7 years ever haha.
> 
> so the worst he gets is an attack from the internet he doest even know existed till a week ago haha


Well that sucks. 

Oh well I'm sure Karma will catch up to him soon or a later, seems to always do.


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> *1)*Isn't it kind of a generally understood principle that acting while you're angry isn't acting under optimal conditions? Let's say that's agreed upon. Now, and this arguable, if you're a parent, raising your child is the most important thing in your life, and discipline of some sort is essential to that task. Would disciplining your child while angry be the best parenting technique? Don't rationalize or justify, just answer the question with a yes or no response.
> 
> If you said no, I'd agree with you. If you said yes, I'd have to encourage you to think with an open, honest mind about that question. Try to come up with a well-reasoned answer to the question "Why is disciplining your child when you're angry better than disciplining your child when you're not angry?"
> 
> ...


to answer these as well as I can, since I just woke up:

1) Correct. However, when a child is being disciplined the parent is never in a state of "happiness" or any other feeling than anger. If a child does something, that warrants them being spanked, then obviously the parent is going to be angry and upset, and will spank the child.

If you don't show anger and being upset, the child isn't going to know that what they did was bad, and made the parent do what they did. That's common sense.

2) That is your view on it, and I assume you also think that parents that homeschool their children, shouldn't be allowed that right to do so, because it's not what the rest of society does? I'm a firm believer that what happens in the sanctity of your own home is off limits to others. And because people want to keep reading that the wrong way, all the time: UNLESS IT CAUSES ACTUAL CHILD ABUSE, OR ASSAULT ON ANOTHER PERSON OR PET. 

3) You've obviously never held a job, that if found out that illegal downloading is occuring at your home, that you can and will lose your job over it.

Mainly when that said internet is being provided to you by your job. My ex girlfriend's father had an internet line that his job, Bank of America, put in for him, so he could work from home. His children were homeschooled, and his wife had heart problems at the time, as an executive, he had to still work, so they allowed him to do so from home. 

Because the T1 or T3 line to his home was provided for and paid for by Bank of America, if any of his children, or anyone, for that matter, were caught, BofA would fire the man.

So yea, that's reason enough.


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> It's pretty obvious to me that they're both petty people. Contextual clues, and all that. You don't haggle with an entitled-feeling daughter like his without almost necessarily being petty, and the fact that she released this only now proves that she's petty. It's also hard for me to imagine any sort of context in which this man's actions would be justified, especially as he says multiple times why he's doing what he's doing.
> 
> I also don't think he lives under a rock. Everyone in an industrialized nation knows how powerful the internet can be, as well as how fast it can create scandals. It seems more likely that he said he didn't care about the video during a fight over money with his daughter.



Like what? I don't see how you're saying that the judge is a petty man, based on him providing nice things for his kids. I think you're seeing it as hush money, but the statute of limitations on "child abuse" here is 2 years. So once she turned 18, don't you think he would have pulled the plug then?

We're seeing an isolated incident, with out any kind of actual story about why it happened, other than her illegally downloading something. She had been told not to do it, and when she does it again, on purpose, she has a camcorder going to film it.


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## wlfers (Nov 6, 2011)

I'm just curious out of all the people here who say "I've been belted, and I love my parents so this is okay", did you watch the video?

I've been smacked around (once for not cutting my hair even), but my parents NEVER said that kind of shit to me when they did it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 6, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> I think you've mistaken where this whole debate has gone. Myself and several others that are disagreeing with NatG are merely saying a spanking shouldn't be outlawed. What the judge does in the video clearly went too far, I have no argument against that. For one, there's the verbal abuse part. Two, I personally wouldn't whip my kid (if I had one) with a belt. Matter of fact, I wouldn't use any object by my hand. I also would not be spanking or hitting my 16 year old unless he did something intentional that was seriously fucked up... like try to burn down the house, or destroy shit of mine on purpose. Then I probably would kick his ass.
> 
> The point here is the debate in this thread has moved off a bit from what the judge did to simply being able to physically discipline one's child. NatG is for making it an illegal offense to even spank your kid and that I am totally against. And from the number of people responding to him here he is quite out numbered. He also does not have any kids and is 18 years old. Not saying his opinions aren't valid, just that there's a chance his opinions on this might change if he had kids and was older.
> 
> ...



This.

I really think people are just posting as a kneejerk reaction, letting their emotions talk for them before even really knowing what's going on. I keep seeing the same point brought up by people who don't have anything to offer other than "he's an asshole, horrible person, how dare he etc etc".


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## Dan (Nov 6, 2011)

athawulf said:


> I'm just curious out of all the people here who say "I've been belted, and I love my parents so this is okay", did you watch the video?
> 
> I've been smacked around (once for not cutting my hair even), but my parents NEVER said that kind of shit to me when they did it.



Once again, learn to read the thread. Yes i have been belted. No they never said anything like that to me during it but i was hit so infreuqently i knew when i did it was something wrong and i should never do it again. Same time though most of us arnt talking about the judge being right, more that spanking your child can be okay. ffs


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## wlfers (Nov 6, 2011)

Dan said:


> Once again, learn to read the thread. Yes i have been belted. No they never said anything like that to me during it but i was hit so infreuqently i knew when i did it was something wrong and i should never do it again. Same time though most of us arnt talking about the judge being right, more that spanking your child can be okay. ffs



sorry my reading skills are on par with your thinking skills-

ffs, I'm not commenting on that aspect because I AGREE with it.


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## Dan (Nov 6, 2011)

athawulf said:


> sorry my reading skills are on par with your thinking skills-
> 
> ffs, I'm not commenting on that aspect because I AGREE with it.



Sorry it's been a long day at work and you're comment made it seem as if you were throwing abuse back out again 

Word it a little clearer next time


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## Explorer (Nov 6, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> To be honest, I don't really give a shit about how someone raises their child.
> 
> Spank them or don't, I don't care.
> 
> ...





Explorer said:


> *Time for some reduction to absurdity.*
> 
> *I suspect and am hoping you don't actually mean that, but instead just don't recognize that you have limits.*
> 
> ...






Sicarius said:


> *Well, that's one way to completely misconstrue what I was saying... Are you honestly saying that? Because that's absurd. *I've said plenty that actual abuse and assault is wrong, and you even saying something like that reconfirms my hate of parents that don't think with common sense...



But where do you draw your limits on what is abuse and assault? *I agree that your previous statement was absurd, your assertion that it is the parent's right to do what they think is right, and no one else's business.* That judge was beating that girl, using the language of abuse while doing so, talking about how she had made him that angry so that her beating was a natural consequence, etc. He was doing what he thought was right. 

Others think it's all right to do the same and worse. 

I agree that your statement on that, and what can be done using your statement in support, is absurd. Do you agree as well? 



Sicarius said:


> 3) You've obviously never held a job, that if found out that illegal downloading is occuring at your home, that you can and will lose your job over it.
> 
> Mainly when that said internet is being provided to you by your job. My ex girlfriend's father had an internet line that his job, Bank of America, put in for him, so he could work from home. His children were homeschooled, and his wife had heart problems at the time, as an executive, he had to still work, so they allowed him to do so from home.
> 
> Because the T1 or T3 line to his home was provided for and paid for by Bank of America, if any of his children, or anyone, for that matter, were caught, BofA would fire the man.



I don't let others use the high speed line from my job. Why didn't your ex-GF's dad get a line for the house, instead of letting the household use a work resource? I would never want to download bum fight videos on my work line. (joke) What's funnier is, I see reports about what our employees get up to on our internet lines, as well as who is abusing certain discounts and other resources. We don't act on them, but it definitely factors in when we're making decisions on who's moving up, down or out. 

----

One more thing: BrutalWizard, it doesn't occur to me to reach for hateful words like you did. Shame on you for the word "cunt" even occurring to you to put down a girl/woman. Calling a woman a "cunt" never occurs to me, just as it never occurs to me to call a black person a "ni**er" Both betray the existence of a thought pattern, whether normally hidden or not. You went with "bitch" later, too. If I noticed it, might others as well? And, is that how you want to be perceived?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 6, 2011)

Rev2010 said:


> If I had a daughter and she maliciously and intentionally erased my DAW and deleted all my ghost backups and smashed all my gear because I wouildn't raise her allowance or whatever other reason I would say that would warrant a beating from hell.
> 
> Or what about those kids that kill a parent in their sleep? If my daughter killed my wife she would die too. Or how about something like in Ferris Beuller - taking out the Ferrari and trashing it? That would get an ass kicking and I can't see why anyone would think it wouldn't warrant that.
> 
> ...



Oh my... Is this where the thread has gone?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 6, 2011)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Are people really negrepping people over this?  For Christ's sake people, opinions, we all have them. Stop getting emotional over someone's opinion from the internet.



What do you actually have a life or something? Internet opinions are serious business... E-rep even more so!


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

What's absurd, is you continuously taking things I've said and turning them into something I've never said.

I called her a bitch, because that's the way she's acting. Cunt and Bitch are perfectly useful in this specific person's actions.

Please, continue to post things upon your horse of high and mighty morality, as you are obviously too righteous for us lowly people who condone spanking our children


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## groph (Nov 6, 2011)

Well fuck.

My foot is somewhat in my mouth. While I definitely think that what Adams did in the video was pretty brutal, that little bit about the Mercedes made Hillary look a hell of a lot less credible. Now that the news has such a hold of it I bet there's going to be a whole ton of sensationalism or outright lies and distortion. I definitely care a whole lot less about this video. 

I think we should probably call this thread closed, lots of arguments and neg-rep going around.


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

groph said:


> Well fuck.
> 
> My foot is somewhat in my mouth. While I definitely think that what Adams did in the video was pretty brutal, that little bit about the Mercedes made Hillary look a hell of a lot less credible. Now that the news has such a hold of it I bet there's going to be a whole ton of sensationalism or outright lies and distortion. I definitely care a whole lot less about this video.
> 
> I think we should probably call this thread closed, lots of arguments and neg-rep going around.



Public outcry, here at least, as pretty much gone away. Once he released his 3 page press release most everyone turned on her.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 6, 2011)

Honestly, Explorer, I get what you're saying. I truly do. BUT, it seems like you're picking some pretty extreme cases simply for the sake of playing devil's advocate, which is fine, but I'm pretty sure you know what Sicarius meant when he said what he said. Why nitpick? It gets you nowhere.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Nov 6, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Oh my... Is this where the thread has gone?



I dunno..but I'm liking it


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

Well, now, we all know someone who has a video camera.


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## wlfers (Nov 6, 2011)

Dan said:


> Sorry it's been a long day at work and you're comment made it seem as if you were throwing abuse back out again
> 
> Word it a little clearer next time



Will do hah. I do support smacking people, but the yelling should be strictly on the topic of the offense.


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## Explorer (Nov 6, 2011)

I don't think it's nitpicking.

I think it's acknowledging that one cannot assume that everyone has the same standards, and that laws are written because some people go to extremes. 

So, I can't support that all discipline should be beyond the reach of the law. I would hope that those examples would help others realize why it's a bad idea.

----

Sadly, I didn't realize that not going for sexual and racial epithets was riding on a high horse. Thanks for clarifying that... if that was your point. To me, that's a strange thing to defend, but I'm sure your moms, sisters, daughters and girlfriends/wives are proud of your stance. 

(Wow! Is that really a serious defense of that kind of behavior? *laugh* I'd find that appalling, but would be sincerely interested to know if the women in the lives of those using those words are truly comfortable with that kind of treatment, as opposed to it being just the anonymity of the internet allowing that kind of behavior without consequences....)


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

Your ignorance, and refusal to accept common sense baffles me.


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## groph (Nov 6, 2011)

Sicarius said:


> Your ignorance, and refusal to accept common sense baffles me.



Tone it down, man. Not a productive way to debate.

Has anybody read Adams's press release/is able to sum up his side of the debate? I felt like a proper ass after seeing that Hillary had a fucking Benz, probably a healthy allowance and a bunch of other privileges. Doesn't really excuse Adams from beating her, but if she was indeed a spoiled little vengeful shit then I have a hell of a lot less sympathy. 

I've always thought that kids who disobey constantly are the result of passive, lacklustre parenting, IE the parents basically sat around letting the TV babysit their kid, fighting in front of their kid so the kid can learn lots of colorful language and how to argue with each of their parents, and giving their kid whatever the fuck they wanted so they grow up with a massive sense of entitlement. I don't know how much of this boils down to "nature" or whatever, I was pretty spoiled but my parents never hit me or never "had" to; I've been yelled at and had some damaging things said to me the odd time (those sink in and hurt) but I was never hit.

The way Adams was yelling at his daughter gets to me more than the physical beating, it just really comes of as a dominance display and not discipline and it doesn't look "worse than it was" at all, it looked pretty horrific to me. Still, I can't be THAT sympathetic to Hillary if she was trying to get her dad in trouble and I feel stupid for not pausing to consider the bigger picture, but again all we got was just one video of something terrible to watch. Perfect way to get the emotions taking over your rationality, it's what left-wing anti-establishment documentaries thrive on. Not that they're not valid criticisms, they can just fight a bit dirty sometimes.

I can't see myself taking a belt to a kid and yelling at them like that, I just can't bear to watch people getting the shit beaten out of them in a one-sided encounter. If that kind of treatment was routine in that household then I can't say I have a very positive opinion of Adams. I don't know where to stand on THIS particular instance.


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## Sicarius (Nov 6, 2011)

It's not a debate. It's one group of people thinking they're better than another due to the way they discipline their children.

So, when one member constantly ignores what I'm saying, and changing it around to suit their own needs, and refusing to accept anything but their misconstrued wording. It's ignorant.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 6, 2011)

groph said:


> all we got was just one video of something terrible to watch. Perfect way to get the emotions taking over your rationality



The media and their goals in a nutshell... They only operate under the facade of keeping us "informed." Or at least it doesn't always seem to be their primary concern.


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## AK DRAGON (Nov 6, 2011)

Getting back to the story at hand before she announced on why she posted it.

I had to listen to the incident a few times to get what I could out of the 7+ minutes of video. Do I know the whole story? Nope. Did she get what she deserved? Yes, up to about minute three. If the tape ended there it would have been end of the story and everyone would be talking about how she got what she deserved for being disobedient. After the three minute mark his anger fueled the punishment. At that point he went overboard with his remarks and discipline which I would consider abuse. 

You *NEVER EVER* discipline in anger. It sends the wrong message of &#8216;I&#8217;m punishing you because I&#8217;m angry&#8217; instead of &#8216;I&#8217;m punishing you because you did wrong&#8217;. Punishment is not meant to be fun and corporal punishment is used when it fits the context. Would I spank a child for taking a cookie? No, but I would spank if they were caught stealing a cookie from a store. Was he out of options, again I don&#8217;t have that answer. He could have called the police and had a private chat to pretend to send her to jail for the illegal downloads. This is not the worst discipline/beating I have seen/been a part of. If I had done what she was being accused of would I have been disciplined? Oh, Hell Yes!

My parents didn't use a belt; they used &#8216;The Board of Education&#8217; (paddle) when punishment was warranted. Did we get beat often? NO. We knew there were consequences to our actions. It would have been a combination of corporal punishment, grounding, extra chores or even all of the above. Did I fear my parents? No. Was I mad that they punished me? Yes, but afterwards I realized I was the one who disobeyed or was wrong and learned from that mistake. As a child you gain the respect of your parents by doing as you are told. Were they always right? No, but the reward after the truth came out was better than feeling vindicated. If I wanted to do something I had to do what was asked of me. If I didn&#8217;t; then I not only didn&#8217;t get to do what you wanted but got punished as well. 

I&#8217;m not saying that corporal punishment (belt/spank/paddle) should never be used on a child. I&#8217;m saying if it&#8217;s done properly (ie parent&#8217;s in control of their emotions) it&#8217;s another tool for correcting said child. A good parent knows it hurts them more than the child does receiving the punishment. Would I ever discipline my child? Yes, after they understand why they are getting punished.


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 6, 2011)

God forbid you be angry because they did wrong... 

I do get what you're saying, though. Not everyone's house works that way, though and not every child will take it that way. I think that point along with yours has been made about 50x already.


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## MikeH (Nov 6, 2011)

I used to get the belt frequently, but never this severe. This video is absolutely fucking ridiculous and that guy deserves some sort of corporal punishment. I firmly believe in showing discipline to children. Kids are fucking assholes these days and the majority of them need to be on the receiving end of a belt every once in a while. But this is blatant, excessive abuse.


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## Explorer (Nov 7, 2011)

So, assuming that she goaded him because she knew she was filming/taping:

My kid could have set up as many cameras as possible, and nothing would have come of it. 

If she knew enough to film it, it doesn't take a genius to figure out that *she knew there would be something worth filming. *Does anyone really think this was an isolated incident, with the belt, the language, and the long beating... and that she was only lucky to have caught the one incident on tape?

Did anyone else see that series of three films based on the _Millenium_ books by Stieg Larsson, "The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo," "The Girl who Played with Fire," and "The Girl who Kicked the Hornet's Nest?" Spoiler alert, for those who might want to catch the films (and I highly recommend you do):


Spoiler



A lot of people in that story kept talking about how she had problems, and only the recording of her legal gardian sodomizing her finally got that guy out of a position of authority. Up until that moment of revelation, where no one believed her because her attacker was a respected authority, she had no hope of being believed.



The fact that this "bitch" and "cunt" taped one out of what was undoubtably a single episode out of a long string of abusive assaults, and that her finally learning the lesson of those abusive assaults (use what power you can over those who are weaker than you) being a negative thing, would seem more as a strike against the judge than against the one he taught so well. 

It's also sad that the long string of abusive assaults didn't have the effect that those in favor of corporal punishment would have predicted. She didn't submit to abusive authority. She fought back, and won. 

Ever hear of "seasoning" a woman/girl? It's an appalling thing. Here's one source:



> What is the process of enslavement?
> 
> Women are forced or tricked to leave their friends and community, their documents taken off them and then the sexual *slavery is imposed through a "seasoning" process that breaks down the will and ego of its victims. Systematic subjugation to debasing practices and derogatory comments steadily erodes women's or girls' sense of self-worth. Beatings and rape from spouses, pimps, or traffickers secure the enslaving conditions until, eventually, the pimp can leave the victim alone at home or out on the street to prostitute without fear she will flee.*


It's not that there are parallels, it's that the same process, minus the rape, is what is being defended at the core of this discussion. 



And it's not just a matter of some people thinking it's "wrong." The research is out there, and was presented in this thread, regarding corporal punishment and its effectiveness (or lack thereof)... as well as its consequences. 


----


Incidentally, I wasn't trying to misconstrue anyone's words. I was just trying to show that it was an ill-advised argument, which could (and has been) used to justify all kinds of wretched behavior, including physical, mental and sexual abuse. Read the examples I gave. I kept pointing out that what was said couldn't possibly be meant in seriousness, and what such words could justify.


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## Sicarius (Nov 7, 2011)

I think you're giving her a lot more credit than she deserves.

see when you're brought up in an environment, that it's made clear that certain actions can upset one of your parents jobs, some coniving little cunt is going to get mad that daddy didn't give her exactly what she wanted, and will make or do something that she can hold over him.

This was an attempt at classic black mail, and it back fired, to an extent. She did manage to get the bleeding-heart parents in all a tizzy.

And quite honestly, Explorer, you did misconstrue what I said. I've said plenty of times that actual abuse (which this isn't) and assault, is against the law like it should be. Everyone else, EXCEPT YOU, knew exactly what I meant by what I said. YOU are the only person to take it completely out of context and turned it into a failed attempt to discredit my personal feelings about something.


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## CrushingAnvil (Nov 7, 2011)

Sorry to go on, but someone tell me what beating a child/offspring accomplishes?


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## Konfyouzd (Nov 7, 2011)

CrushingAnvil said:


> Sorry to go on, but someone tell me what beating a child/offspring accomplishes?



Well for me it showed me that doing certain things wasn't acceptable if it turns out that simply talking to me about it didn't suffice. Believe it or not I would sometimes agree with my parents to their face and do what I wanted when they left. Crazy... I know.


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