# Elden ring!



## BusinessMan

Rejoice, ashen one



I'm ready for the next dark souls.


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## Leviathus

I wonder if there will be jousting pvp.


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## p0ke

^ I'd say it's looking pretty awesome so far!


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## Siggevaio

It looks fantastic, just as expected. They are adding a checkpoint system as well, which I think is a nice addition. Always found the run from a bonfire to the bossfights a bit tedious. At least the first 20 attempts before you learn the moveset of the boss.


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## KnightBrolaire

go watch vaatividya's gameplay vid, he spends 30 minutes just exploring parts of the game during network testing. It got me way more hyped than the official gameplay trailer. They added destructible environments and crafting elements as well.


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## wankerness

I like that the crafting elements sound like they're totally optional, like anything you can craft can be bought off vendors instead.


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## Leviathus

I'm still avoiding all the gameplay vids but idk if i'm gonna make it to Feb. I wonder if the deluxe edition just means "pre order DLC as well" or maybe you get Hodir's set or something?


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## wankerness

Leviathus said:


> I'm still avoiding all the gameplay vids but idk if i'm gonna make it to Feb. I wonder if the deluxe edition just means "pre order DLC as well" or maybe you get Hodir's set or something?



Looking at the version breakdowns, there's literally nothing in those expensive editions that affects gameplay besides one "bonus gesture." No costumes, no in-game items, no nothing. Mostly just soundtrack, digital "adventure guide," and then a bunch of physical stuff for the most expensive version.

No DLC or season passes. I don't think Fromsoft has ever done those ahead of time? I dunno if they even plan on DLC, they never released any for Sekiro.


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## Jake

The network test videos made me decide it's time for an Xbox Series X so I've got one of those on the way to me now. This is really the only game I'm looking forward to so I'm stoked.


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## wankerness

I'm looking forward to a few things (particularly HZD2 and God of War 2), but these vids have definitely put this #1. The only thing I'm worried about is death runbacks, I didn't catch how that worked in any of the videos. Do you spawn from the "bonfire" equivalents, or was there some kind of secondary checkpoint thing?


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## Siggevaio

wankerness said:


> I'm looking forward to a few things (particularly HZD2 and God of War 2), but these vids have definitely put this #1. The only thing I'm worried about is death runbacks, I didn't catch how that worked in any of the videos. Do you spawn from the "bonfire" equivalents, or was there some kind of secondary checkpoint thing?


 There is a checkpoint system. You can find something called a "Stake of Marika" where you can choose to respawn instead of at a site of grace (bonfire). I have no idea of how frequent these will be but hopefully they are pretty close to the bossfights.


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## wankerness

Siggevaio said:


> There is a checkpoint system. You can find something called a "Stake of Marika" where you can choose to respawn instead of at a site of grace (bonfire). I have no idea of how frequent these will be but hopefully they are pretty close to the bossfights.



I did remember Iron Pineapple saying something about the boss runbacks being way less bad than some in the past, but didn't remember WHY. That must explain it!


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## KnightBrolaire

Siggevaio said:


> There is a checkpoint system. You can find something called a "Stake of Marika" where you can choose to respawn instead of at a site of grace (bonfire). I have no idea of how frequent these will be but hopefully they are pretty close to the bossfights.


vaati said they're typically next to very dangerous areas, like certain enemy camps and boss fights.


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## Tree

Any official word on whether next gen players will be able to connect with previous gen consoles? There's no way I'm going to be able to snag a Series X or PS5 before release, and I refuse to get the digital only variants.

I need me some Fromsoft pvp and DS3 has been dead for the last few years on Xbox. Always running into the same people over and over gets old quick.


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## Mathemagician

Leviathus said:


> I wonder if there will be jousting pvp.



If there is hit detection and damage while mounted between two players, then you bet your bottom soul vessel there will be.


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## philkilla

Can't wait to play it.


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## Adieu

Huh

I 100% expected it to be a video doorbell review


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## Leviathus

Finally got around to pre-ordering, the hype is real now! Fingers crossed that launch goes smoothly next week.


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## Mathemagician

Leviathus said:


> I wonder if there will be jousting pvp.



If there are mounted hitboxes, there will be. Health bar damage or not, lol.


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## SamSam

I think they confirmed that mounts cannot be used in multiplayer


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## NoodleFace

10/10 Masterpiece


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## KnightBrolaire

Iron Pineapple also gushed about Elden Ring. He's saying it's the best thing Fromsoft has ever made, especially the attention to detail with the level designs and dungeons/ weapon arts and combat.


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## thebeesknees22

I am intrigued.


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## cwhitey2

This game looks freaking amazing


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## CovertSovietBear

So Ghosts of Tsushima with another skin


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## KnightBrolaire

CovertSovietBear said:


> So Ghosts of Tsushima with another skin


uh no. Fundamentally different games. 
This is an open world Souls game basically.


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## CovertSovietBear

KnightBrolaire said:


> open world Souls game


That makes more sense, granted doesn't entice me but looks the part


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## wankerness

Iron Pineapple's video did have one thing that has me determined to look up at least something of a guide - he said two of the best areas in the game in the 60 hours he's played are behind hidden walls you have to hit. That's so nuts that they hide amazing content behind walls that have no clue whatsoever that you should hit them apart from player-left messages. DS3 did that with two zones in a row (the area with oceiros and then the area with upgraded Gundyr) and it sounds like they're doing it again here!


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## narad

Maaan, I thought I'd be able to play ~now, midnight in Japan turning into 2/25, but we have to wait until 2PM.


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## LostTheTone

I am pre-loading at this moment - It goes live at 11pm here, so sadly I won't be able to get into it today. But I will have most of tomorrow ready to Elden some rings


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## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Iron Pineapple's video did have one thing that has me determined to look up at least something of a guide - he said two of the best areas in the game in the 60 hours he's played are behind hidden walls you have to hit. That's so nuts that they hide amazing content behind walls that have no clue whatsoever that you should hit them apart from player-left messages. DS3 did that with two zones in a row (the area with oceiros and then the area with upgraded Gundyr) and it sounds like they're doing it again here!



They did that in all the Souls games. It's kinda their thing. It's still a really dreadful design choice, but who am I to tell them how to design, eh?


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## KnightBrolaire

LostTheTone said:


> They did that in all the Souls games. It's kinda their thing. It's still a really dreadful design choice, but who am I to tell them how to design, eh?


I like it, it's an old school design choice that rewards replaying the game.


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## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> They did that in all the Souls games. It's kinda their thing. It's still a really dreadful design choice, but who am I to tell them how to design, eh?


I don’t recall any entire zones hidden behind actual illusionary walls in any of the other DS games besides 3 but maybe I’m forgetting something. Like, 1 had the gwynevere boss or w/e, but other than that I thought it was just some loot or something.


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## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> I don’t recall any entire zones hidden behind actual illusionary walls in any of the other DS games besides 3 but maybe I’m forgetting something. Like, 1 had the gwynevere boss or w/e, but other than that I thought it was just some loot or something.



The Great Hollow in DS1 is hidden behind _two _illusory walls. You slash through one, and there's a chest, and the you have to awkwardly maneuver past it, and slash the wall behind it. And THEN you can get down to big tree and the hydra and the dragonbro.


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## LostTheTone

KnightBrolaire said:


> I like it, it's an old school design choice that rewards replaying the game.



That's true, and I do appreciate that even today it feels like there are more secrets to find in the games. It's very old school, and very very cool, that things a few players might idly think to do (like shooting arrows at Gwynovere) actually result in a seriously big change to the game. Finding out how to get the alternate ending is awesome. But I never liked the illusory walls. It's a game, so they are perfectly hidden, and I don't like that you have to run around and hit literally every wall to find them.


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## Mathemagician

I’m going to have to download this on PS5 tonight huh? Damnit


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## KnightBrolaire

LostTheTone said:


> That's true, and I do appreciate that even today it feels like there are more secrets to find in the games. It's very old school, and very very cool, that things a few players might idly think to do (like shooting arrows at Gwynovere) actually result in a seriously big change to the game. Finding out how to get the alternate ending is awesome. But I never liked the illusory walls. It's a game, so they are perfectly hidden, and I don't like that you have to run around and hit literally every wall to find them.


It's been a while but I remember in DS1's dlc , where basically the walls would make a noise when your were nearby. It was annoying finding most of the others back in the day though.
With how fast people come out with guides/etc, nothing remains a secret in these types of games for long.


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## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> The Great Hollow in DS1 is hidden behind _two _illusory walls. You slash through one, and there's a chest, and the you have to awkwardly maneuver past it, and slash the wall behind it. And THEN you can get down to big tree and the hydra and the dragonbro.


Ohhhh yeah, totally forgot about that. I've been through the game enough times that I don't even think about it.


EDIT: Was thinking about DS2 - it definitely has some parallels. Ex the multiple different ledges in Black Gulch you have to fall down to when it's almost pitch black and there are no clues unless you're very VERY carefully looking off the edge of all the cliffs. Or the SOTFS edition where the DLC keys are in really obscure locations and you can't get into them at all without them.


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## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Ohhhh yeah, totally forgot about that. I've been through the game enough times that I don't even think about it.
> 
> 
> EDIT: Was thinking about DS2 - it definitely has some parallels. Ex the multiple different ledges in Black Gulch you have to fall down to when it's almost pitch black and there are no clues unless you're very VERY carefully looking off the edge of all the cliffs. Or the SOTFS edition where the DLC keys are in really obscure locations and you can't get into them at all without them.



Oh man DS2 has a lot of the worst bullshitty stuff in the series. Ironically it is the game I have played the most; even was a bit of an amateur challenge and/or speed runner back in the day. They even made illusory walls even worse - Because in DS2 you have to activate them, not hit them, so you cannot possibly find them by accident.

Black Gulch is one area that I actually have some affection for. I remember just how incredibly frustrating it and The Gutter were to get through and explore. But in a way it's a very classically Dark Souls style of design. These areas are punishing when you first arrive. But you slowly become more familiar and by my third playthrough I was navigating through with confidence and just breezing through an area that previously was so tough. It felt to me somewhat like Senn's Fortress; once I understood it I kinda just walked through with no problems.


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## NoodleFace

My PS5 copy was supposed to come tomorrow but it got delivered early today. For once... Amazon came through


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## bulb

this would be my first fromsoft game, good call?
also should i do pc or ps5? normally i do pc but i heard it's not a great port


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## LostTheTone

bulb said:


> this would be my first fromsoft game, good call?
> also should i do pc or ps5? normally i do pc but i heard it's not a great port



Honestly it's hard to tell yet how newbie friendly it'll be - Dark Souls 2 is the easiest, but also the dullest of the series, only really good if you already like the formula. But from a story perspective this is a whole new property with brand new lore, so at least you don't need to know any backstory. 

I think if you go in knowing that you'll probably have to go look up some things then you'll do fine. Oh and the game will be balls hard, go in expecting to be frustrated. 

I'm not too worried about the port. They're past games have generally been fine on PC. Go with whatever you'd normally feel more comfortable playing on. Or whichever one has a cheaper TV/monitor so you don't feel so bad when you inevitably hurl a controller through it.


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## KnightBrolaire

bulb said:


> this would be my first fromsoft game, good call?
> also should i do pc or ps5? normally i do pc but i heard it's not a great port


Iron Pineapple said this is the most accessible fromsoft game, so it's prob a good place to start.


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## wankerness

bulb said:


> this would be my first fromsoft game, good call?
> also should i do pc or ps5? normally i do pc but i heard it's not a great port


Definitely a good call as a first fromsoft game. And if you have a PS5 you should definitely do that over PC. PC tends to have hacking issues with the PVP in these games.


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## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> Oh man DS2 has a lot of the worst bullshitty stuff in the series. Ironically it is the game I have played the most; even was a bit of an amateur challenge and/or speed runner back in the day. They even made illusory walls even worse - Because in DS2 you have to activate them, not hit them, so you cannot possibly find them by accident.
> 
> Black Gulch is one area that I actually have some affection for. I remember just how incredibly frustrating it and The Gutter were to get through and explore. But in a way it's a very classically Dark Souls style of design. These areas are punishing when you first arrive. But you slowly become more familiar and by my third playthrough I was navigating through with confidence and just breezing through an area that previously was so tough. It felt to me somewhat like Senn's Fortress; once I understood it I kinda just walked through with no problems.


DS2 is my favorite, I actually enjoy most of the zones. There is some BS with enemy squads ganking the crap out of you in some zones if you don't know they're coming and/or don't have a ranged weapon, but there's nowhere near the environmental BS of the first game. The poison swamp barely counts as a poison swamp, there's no rafter creeping, there aren't narrow pathways with swinging axes, etc. DS1 has a lot that just make me miserable whenever I hit them, and the dread that follows sections like where you have to run all the way from the bottom of blighttown up through firelink keep and then the firekeeper's dead so you have to make it all the way to a bonfire in undead parish or burg is something you don't really get in 2/3. And I think that's a good thing!

The Gutter is kind of nightmarish, but at least it has a couple bonfires. I like the aesthetic of it, I like how dark they were and how they light up as you light torches. Black Gulch is more miserable, I always just go through with a spear and knock out *all* the spitting statues and then use a flame bow on all the oil pits to kill the lurkers and it's easy, just a bit tedious.

Sen's Fortress is certainly EASIER on repeat playthroughs, but still awful. Mainly cause of the final stupid bridge and how you have to get the timing/placement EXACTLY right or you get killed instantly and have to do the whole damn level over again. I hate playing with the boulder lever because you're far enough into the level that any mistake means a LOT of stuff you have to redo. And some of the snakes are serious bullshit if you don't have a bow, like the ones that are right behind a series of axes that spray lightning at you nonstop, causing you to get staggered into an axe and insta-killed. I never realized how bad they were till I tried doing a caster run.


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## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> DS2 is my favorite, I actually enjoy most of the zones. There is some BS with enemy squads ganking the crap out of you in some zones if you don't know they're coming and/or don't have a ranged weapon, but there's nowhere near the environmental BS of the first game. The poison swamp barely counts as a poison swamp, there's no rafter creeping, there aren't narrow pathways with swinging axes, etc. DS1 has a lot that just make me miserable whenever I hit them, and the dread that follows sections like where you have to run all the way from the bottom of blighttown up through firelink keep and then the firekeeper's dead so you have to make it all the way to a bonfire in undead parish or burg is something you don't really get in 2/3. And I think that's a good thing!
> 
> The Gutter is kind of nightmarish, but at least it has a couple bonfires. I like the aesthetic of it, I like how dark they were and how they light up as you light torches. Black Gulch is more miserable, I always just go through with a spear and knock out *all* the spitting statues and then use a flame bow on all the oil pits to kill the lurkers and it's easy, just a bit tedious.
> 
> Sen's Fortress is certainly EASIER on repeat playthroughs, but still awful. Mainly cause of the final stupid bridge and how you have to get the timing/placement EXACTLY right or you get killed instantly and have to do the whole damn level over again. I hate playing with the boulder lever because you're far enough into the level that any mistake means a LOT of stuff you have to redo. And some of the snakes are serious bullshit if you don't have a bow, like the ones that are right behind a series of axes that spray lightning at you nonstop, causing you to get staggered into an axe and insta-killed. I never realized how bad they were till I tried doing a caster run.



Oh man I forgot about the Firekeeper dying  I genuinely don't think I ever actually played through DS1 where that actually happened to me, because I always gank Lautrec and get the FAP ring. I didn't play it until Prepare To Die anyway, and people always said the ring was worth getting ASAP.

I do love the crap out of DS2 though, even though I don't necessarily think it's the best designed. I think that stuff like having to set fire to the windmill for a boss fight miles up ahead is garbage, for example. There is literally no reason to believe that might happen, and no reason to have a lit torch. In fact that whole area is dreadful.

From the bonfire after Jabba Demon, you get ambushed by an ass hole, cross the bridge while getting arrows shot at you, then when you go towards the ladder up to the windmill, one guy comes down the ladder and another guy just drops on you. A little later there are those pyromages standing next to poison jars and hidden up blind corners.

Oh and the fastest way through Black Gulch is to drop down to the first shortcut, high five Lucatiel, jump down, run straight across and then go up to the hidden bonfire.

Personally I never have had much problem with Sen's fortress. My first time through I did have to mess about with a bow, but dealing with the serpent dudes is down to pushing them into the right place to fight them where you can't get hit by anything else. They're bastards, but fighting them one one one isn't too strenuous.


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## gunch

Does this game stay consistent? I love dark souls 1 but fuck the game after O&S (Lost Izalith dragon asses)


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## LostTheTone

Alright, I got up an hour early to get all Elden before work. My preload is complete, here we goooooo


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## LostTheTone

So I managed to get about an hour in before I had to go make my wife breakfast and I think I get what was being said about it being more accessible. No spoilers, I promise.

The tutorial area is done well. It is a pretty obvious tutorial area, instead of the kinda narrative tutorial you get in DS1, but it is better than in DS2 and gets the fundamentals across nicely. There is a mini boss at the end to try it all out, and he is just a dude instead of mindrending abomination at the end of DS3s tutorial. Solid start.

Oh, but there is still a classic "supposed to lose" boss fight before the tutorial, to remind you that you are the games bitch. Very demons souls. I like it though, and as a series veteran I kinda think I could take him if I had a few shots. No estus, no gear, just an inadequately tiny shield - Yeah, I got this . Suffice to say, I did not got this.

Anyway, I have just gotten to the first proper open map and started fiddling around. It does feel more accessible here too. The open world is properly open, not just paths in a bigger map. That makes the world feel instantly less hostile, because enemies aren't constantly blocking your path. You can wander without having to fight all the time, and there are wild animals that you can kill but don't have to. There's also some nice quality of life changes - Running outside of combat doesn't use stamina which is a good change.

The game lore is... Familiar but different. It does feel somewhat like From went to George R-Type Martin with the plot of Dark Souls and said "Can you make this make sense?". The intro cut scene talking about the fall of the old gods and the Shattering felt very familiar, and almost like a reboot rather than a fresh IP. That's no bad thing though. If you have got good previously and just want to blast bosses, the lore is familiar enough that you can skip the dialogues. If you are new, you don't need to know any old lore. That's a good balance.

The performance is alright thus far - My laptop is only a 1660Ti, and while I did have to turn down a bit from High presets (and weirdly had to go turn on v-sync in my drivers because there is no option in game) it runs good. The open world is huge and very open though, and that's always going to be demanding on hardware. 

It's too early to start saying its the game of the century but its cool and it feels good to play. Oh and there is like a horse-launcher you can use for fast travel. I haven't found a horse yet, but I did find like a geyser type thing that (the tutorial window informed me) would launch me and my horsie into the air and allow me to land without fall damage. What other game has a magic horse launcher? Exactly.


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## Choop

I was only able to play for about an hour last night on PC, and probably half of that was character creation lol. It seems fun, but I still don't have a good sense of the world or what is really going on yet. It's early, I'll get to play more today~. Had a hell of a time deciding on which class to play as since they all more or less sound interesting. 

Also I did experience some of the performance issues that people have been talking about, just some stuttering and FPS drops, but nothing too critically bad yet. My system is a 10900K CPU, with an RTX 3080 GPU and 32GB of fast RAM, so it really isn't an issue of hardware lacking and more just bugginess in the game itself.


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## narad

Been playing about 4 hours now. I can't pinpoint why, but I'm just not finding it as fun as Demon's Souls. I think it's because in Demon's Souls there's challenges in front of you that might be an extreme challenge for you, but it feels like everything is doable if you go in with the right strategy, regardless of your build or equipment. In Elden Ring, I'm finding myself in spots where I think I'm probably just not supposed to be in that area yet / not being kept on that edge of my comfort zone, being pushed to get better. I feel like I'm more pushed to go grind or craft a ton of shit.

Also stealth builds are way more powerful than in Demon's Souls. To a fault against weaker guys -- it's trivial to sneak up behind someone and get a hit in. You can be well into their peripheral, and you can also be fairly close and straight in front of them before they become aware. It really reminds you that you're playing a game and these guys have simple programs behind them.

Also getting some stuttering on the PS5.


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## wankerness

narad said:


> Been playing about 4 hours now. I can't pinpoint why, but I'm just not finding it as fun as Demon's Souls. I think it's because in Demon's Souls there's challenges in front of you that might be an extreme challenge for you, but it feels like everything is doable if you go in with the right strategy, regardless of your build or equipment. In Elden Ring, I'm finding myself in spots where I think I'm probably just not supposed to be in that area yet / not being kept on that edge of my comfort zone, being pushed to get better. I feel like I'm more pushed to go grind or craft a ton of shit.
> 
> Also stealth builds are way more powerful than in Demon's Souls. To a fault against weaker guys -- it's trivial to sneak up behind someone and get a hit in. You can be well into their peripheral, and you can also be fairly close and straight in front of them before they become aware. It really reminds you that you're playing a game and these guys have simple programs behind them.
> 
> Also getting some stuttering on the PS5.


I've played about 2-3 hours, unlocked the hub and cleared one miniboss. I feel like it's WAY too early to judge the level design. My understanding is that there are full-blown Demon/Dark Souls-style levels contained in the game here and there and then there are lots of little caves and collections of enemies scattered around everywhere. I haven't seen the DS style stuff yet cause I'm too early. Basically I'm just assuming I shouldn't be in any area where I get killed really easily, which has proven to not be the case when I play smarter (ex the first cave with the gremlins).

Stealth is OP but that's a good thing with the enemy encampments considering how many of them there are in a tight area. Unless you have a build where you can take on 10 enemies at once, I think the mechanics are necessary.

It's definitely more meandering than a non-open world, but of course it is - that complaint sounds just like personal preference at this point. Guess we'll see as things go on.

What kind of "stuttering" do you mean? My experience is about what it's like with DS3 on a PS4 Pro. Consistent ~50-60 fps, but not like, 60 FPS locked like Horizon Forbidden West or something. Certainly wayyyy better than DS3 or Sekiro on base PS4 or Bloodborne on any system. I've barely scraped the surface of the game, though.


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## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> I've played about 2-3 hours, unlocked the hub and cleared one miniboss. I feel like it's WAY too early to judge the level design. My understanding is that there are full-blown Demon/Dark Souls-style levels contained in the game here and there and then there are lots of little caves and collections of enemies scattered around everywhere. I haven't seen the DS style stuff yet cause I'm too early. Basically I'm just assuming I shouldn't be in any area where I get killed really easily, which has proven to not be the case when I play smarter (ex the first cave with the gremlins).
> 
> Stealth is OP but that's a good thing with the enemy encampments considering how many of them there are in a tight area. Unless you have a build where you can take on 10 enemies at once, I think the mechanics are necessary.
> 
> It's definitely more meandering than a non-open world, but of course it is - that complaint sounds just like personal preference at this point. Guess we'll see as things go on.
> 
> What kind of "stuttering" do you mean? My experience is about what it's like with DS3 on a PS4 Pro. Consistent ~50-60 fps, but not like, 60 FPS locked like Horizon Forbidden West or something. Certainly wayyyy better than DS3 or Sekiro on base PS4 or Bloodborne on any system. I've barely scraped the surface of the game, though.



I do agree about stealth - When there are encampments and larger groups of enemies it feels necessary to have a way to thin out the numbers.

Edit- Also, whoever is spamming "hidden area ahead" literally everywhere can go fuck themselves.


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## narad

wankerness said:


> What kind of "stuttering" do you mean? My experience is about what it's like with DS3 on a PS4 Pro. Consistent ~50-60 fps, but not like, 60 FPS locked like Horizon Forbidden West or something. Certainly wayyyy better than DS3 or Sekiro on base PS4 or Bloodborne on any system. I've barely scraped the surface of the game, though.


I have no idea. Maybe it's a drop to 50 fps, but in the context of the game, it just feels like a very choppy stuttering as I'm moving the camera around, especially if I'm being chased by a bunch of guys or if it's raining.


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## Werecow

The game has released to only a "Mixed" rating on Steam (only 59% positive), due to the stuttering and frame drops issues. There are a lot of complaints about it. Seems the PC version is worse than the others in that regard, but there's complaints from people on all versions. I'm kinda glad i wasn't tempted by the game, cuz i'm PC only and get really annoyed with bad ports.


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## LostTheTone

Werecow said:


> The game has released to only a "Mixed" rating on Steam (only 59% positive), due to the stuttering and frame drops issues. There are a lot of complaints about it. Seems the PC version is worse than the others in that regard, but there's complaints from people on all versions. I'm kinda glad i wasn't tempted by the game, cuz i'm PC only and get really annoyed with bad ports.



The Steam review writing community are notoriously picky about anything that doesn't deliver a million FPS on their glorious gaming master race rigs. 

Which doesn't excuse bad ports, but I'm playing the same game also on Steam on a much less powerful machine than most of them and it's fine. Not perfect, but it plays well enough.


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## wankerness

I read through a PC complaint thread. A substantial number of them were from people that midthread discovered the game was set to use their integrated graphics card instead of their actual graphics card. Others were from people that used terms like "literally unplayable" to describe 50 FPS. So, yeah. I bet it's not well optimized but I bet a lot of it is terminal whiners. Based on the hundred or two hundred people in the thread only about 40 of them actually described something that sounded like a real issue.


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## Choop

It's more sudden FPS drops that are more jarring. I haven't experienced anything really bad, but I've noticed some stuttering, and some people have been getting really bad fps issues. It's probably just not well optimized for DX12, but it's also suspected that the Easy Anti-Cheat implementation is causing problems. Gonna play more in about an hour!  Will report if anything bad happens lol, but I'm looking forward to getting back into it. I started as a Hero (barbarian?), what's everybody else playing first?


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## Mathemagician

I’ve NEVER played a Fromsoft game as a wizard. Can I play this as a wizard? Like well? It doesn’t have to be OP, but I just don’t want to sling 4 spells and then have to wait until a bonfire or something.


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## KnightBrolaire

Mathemagician said:


> I’ve NEVER played a Fromsoft game as a wizard. Can I play this as a wizard? Like well? It doesn’t have to be OP, but I just don’t want to sling 4 spells and then have to wait until a bonfire or something.


yes


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## Mathemagician

Awwww yeh. LightningFirePoisonBlueSparks time!


----------



## Leviathus

The giant to the left of one of the first few bonfires took me like 20 tries last night lol. 

Getting a little stuttering on PC, but nothing game breaking. Doesn't seem too stressful on my GPU also, the temps don't get nearly as high as when i'm on CoD or something. Really been diggin it so far tho, just picked up my waifu and equine. 



Choop said:


> what's everybody else playing first?


I picked wretch and my guy looks like Franz Liszt on bath salts. Never thought stealth killing eagles with a club could be so much fun.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Choop said:


> It's more sudden FPS drops that are more jarring. I haven't experienced anything really bad, but I've noticed some stuttering, and some people have been getting really bad fps issues. It's probably just not well optimized for DX12, but it's also suspected that the Easy Anti-Cheat implementation is causing problems. Gonna play more in about an hour!  Will report if anything bad happens lol, but I'm looking forward to getting back into it. I started as a Hero (barbarian?), what's everybody else playing first?


Samurai, because i need glorious nippon steel


----------



## Leviathus

KnightBrolaire said:


> Samurai, because i need glorious nippon steel


Do you start with the uchi?


----------



## KnightBrolaire

Leviathus said:


> Do you start with the uchi?


nah. just a regular katana, a shit shield and a longbow.


----------



## Leviathus

Word. I still have yet to pick up a new weapon, club needs to go.


----------



## wankerness

Leviathus said:


> The giant to the left of one of the first few bonfires took me like 20 tries last night lol.
> 
> Getting a little stuttering on PC, but nothing game breaking. Doesn't seem too stressful on my GPU also, the temps don't get nearly as high as when i'm on CoD or something. Really been diggin it so far tho, just picked up my waifu and equine.
> 
> 
> I picked wretch and my guy looks like Franz Liszt on bath salts. Never thought stealth killing eagles with a club could be so much fun.


I tried fighting that giant (assuming you're talking about the one by the archers onthe path right after the first camp). I got him to like half health with flawless rolling techniques and puny little melee attacks, and then I aggro'd one of the torch guys in the camp, who brought THE WHOLE CAMP running after me immediately. I had to reset and didn't feel like chipping the giant down again, so I just ran past him. The only "boss" I've fought so far was that creepy gargoyle thing in the first cave. I hate the way it moves, but it's certainly unlike any other DS enemy I've seen.

I went for the class with the shabby robe and the stocks around their neck with 16 faith base. I bought the actual fireball spell in the round table area. Now it's pretty good - a charged up fireball hits for ~120 while my single upgrade to the short spear only does like 21. I like that the crystal flask makes a comeback from DS3, even though I miss the outrageously overpowered mana regen options from Demon Souls. I like how you can charge up spells and they do more damage WITHOUT increasing FP usage.

I was torn, I wanted to play as the standard shield/straightsword build, but I saw too many people say spells were awesome and I had to choose a caster. I'll probably still end up leveling str, but using the fireballs where appropriate. I bought a heater shield from a vendor at the round table so now I can actually block, which was really dumb with the garbage wooden shield the class came with since you'd take huge chip damage and lose most of your stam. The samurai was the other class that looked attractive, I am a firm believer in always leveling dex and having a bow so a class that starts with that would probably have been good. I've never gotten into Katanas in these games, though.

Anyway, I'm incredibly busy today and this evening and am getting really frustrated that I can't play more.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I’ve NEVER played a Fromsoft game as a wizard. Can I play this as a wizard? Like well? It doesn’t have to be OP, but I just don’t want to sling 4 spells and then have to wait until a bonfire or something.


I dunno how the wizard's starting spells are, but the pyromancer's starting spell was utter useless garbage (basically the equivalent of a wimpy combustion). I got fireball when I first got to the hub, but that took an hour or two. It seems like it's pretty viable.

I've played a fair amount of DS1 starting as a caster - it was pretty good pretty quickly as long as you knew where to go to get a lot of copies of soul arrows at the beginning. DS2, I've never started NG as a caster, but I've gone entirely through NG+ more than once as a caster and it was great. DS3, only ever dabbled. Demon's Souls, though, caster was fantastic and there are a lot of weapons that can return mana on melee hit, which is NOT something that is in any dark souls game. It was great.

One other thing I REALLY like about this game is that you get charges of your flasks back when you clear out groups of enemies. So, you're not screwed until the next bonfire as long as you're not chain chugging. On average a group of 3-5 enemies would give back 2 flask charges. (I didn't check to see if it did the same with the mana flask)


----------



## Mathemagician

Ok yeah that’s awesome and good enough for me to try it. If all else fails I’m sure Rapier + Spam will do dumb damage like always.


----------



## MFB

I rolled Vagabond like a plebian but I'm fine with it for a first playthrough. If I want to do specific builds that's what NG+ is for. 

Already ditched my helm, and secondary weapon to bring my encumberment down, not thrilled to see that back. Jump is killing me here, I keep hitting it without realizing there's finally a FS game with that feature.


----------



## MFB

Took down the Beast man of Azula, he seems FAR more BB based than DS but I'm into it. Gonna take a bit to get back into FromSoft mode but feels good to be back.


----------



## StevenC

I've never played one of these games but want something different to play and have an Xbox Series X to play it on. Will I be missing a lot of story stuff starting here instead of at the start?

All I know is games that come out a few days after a Horizon game tend to be masterpieces, so this should be worth my time.


----------



## MFB

Even though there's 3 entries in the Dark Souls franchise, none of them are directly connected. None of From's games tie together, the only thing you might do is make going back to some of the first games harder due to QoL improvements in the newer games.


----------



## KnightBrolaire

StevenC said:


> I've never played one of these games but want something different to play and have an Xbox Series X to play it on. Will I be missing a lot of story stuff starting here instead of at the start?
> 
> All I know is games that come out a few days after a Horizon game tend to be masterpieces, so this should be worth my time.


this is a standalone game from the souls series, so you could jump right in.


----------



## wankerness

StevenC said:


> I've never played one of these games but want something different to play and have an Xbox Series X to play it on. Will I be missing a lot of story stuff starting here instead of at the start?
> 
> All I know is games that come out a few days after a Horizon game tend to be masterpieces, so this should be worth my time.


As others have said, this one's standalone. But, the DS "trilogy" almost is, too. DS3 has some fanservice callbacks that will produce nostalgia for people that played through 1, but no knowledge is actually required to enjoy the games. The first of the games you play is going to confound you with how statistics, encumberment, etc work, that's THE ONLY thing that you're going to be "missing" if you play this first. But this is something that you have to overcome with whatever game you play first so there's no reason not to start with this one.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I rolled Vagabond like a plebian but I'm fine with it for a first playthrough. If I want to do specific builds that's what NG+ is for.
> 
> Already ditched my helm, and secondary weapon to bring my encumberment down, not thrilled to see that back. Jump is killing me here, I keep hitting it without realizing there's finally a FS game with that feature.


I've been hitting it a bunch too, thanks to playing Bloodborne between Sekiro and this, but it's never been a BAD thing since jumping straight up doesn't kill you, unlike say backstepping off a ledge. The controls are a nice combination of Sekiro and the DS games. I like that item is default back to square (even though I changed Sekiro's awful defaults). The one thing I'm having trouble adjusting to is stance change is now holding down an L or R button and pressing triangle while triangle fulfills the same function X used to.


----------



## Tree

Has anyone on Xbox been able to get online? I was so looking forward to getting invaded, but no luck since last night.


----------



## MFB

Well, I killed the troll at Stormgate on my 2nd try, but then I've also died to him a handful of times just running past.

I also managed to get the great axe from the caravan, but can't use it as it requires double the starting strength. No biggie since my sword has managed so far.

Lost a cool 5K worth of ruins to a trap which teleported me to a high level area I wasn't supposed to be in. Feels bad man.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Well, I killed the troll at Stormgate on my 2nd try, but then I've also died to him a handful of times just running past.
> 
> I also managed to get the great axe from the caravan, but can't use it as it requires double the starting strength. No biggie since my sword has managed so far.
> 
> Lost a cool 5K worth of ruins to a trap which teleported me to a high level area I wasn't supposed to be in. Feels bad man.


I heard about that. Sounded like the equivalent to when you get snatched early on in Bloodborne. Except harder to get out of the place it teleports you to!

I ran around trying to fill in the map, got a couple more map fragments including one that was by those huge terrifying bears from the network test, killed a couple minibosses (this huge troll guy in the bottom of a mine, the beast guy with weirdo swirly attack patterns). Found some really, really visually spectacular and colorful place after taking a REALLY long elevator down, but it's way too high level for me. now think I've hit the first "dark souls level" which is the big castle in the first zone. 

So far I'm liking it but not loving it. I have no idea what any of the items I'm picking up do or how the upgrade paths work or what melee weapon I should be using as a pyromancer or ANYTHING. It's kind of nuts. It feels like the really adult, really impenetrable version of BOTW.


----------



## wankerness

well, the first “proper level” immediately starts out with the first real boss, and Jesus Christ, this guy does NOT mess around. When comparing him to first “real bosses” in these games only Gascoigne comes close. If it weren’t for the goddam jellyfish summon I’d probably still be stuck on him. A pattern I’m definitely seeing with enemies is that they do not get off you at all, ever. Kinda like later game DS3. Even some early random enemies like those Viking berserker guys are really intimidating just cause you can’t create any space or circle around their huge sweeps.

So yeah, finally beat that guy after six attempts and a retreat to grind out some weapon upgrades. I was level 20 on him, and jeez, I think he’s going to be a wall for a lot of players.


----------



## Jake

Beat the Tree Sentinel in 4 tries with just base stats and gear, was feeling good. Got to the first "real" boss as indicated above and jesus christ is right lol. I'm gonna need to do some grinding. Loving the game so far though. No issues at all for me on Xbox Series X.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> well, the first “proper level” immediately starts out with the first real boss, and Jesus Christ, this guy does NOT mess around. When comparing him to first “real bosses” in these games only Gascoigne comes close. If it weren’t for the goddam jellyfish summon I’d probably still be stuck on him. A pattern I’m definitely seeing with enemies is that they do not get off you at all, ever. Kinda like later game DS3. Even some early random enemies like those Viking berserker guys are really intimidating just cause you can’t create any space or circle around their huge sweeps.
> 
> So yeah, finally beat that guy after six attempts and a retreat to grind out some weapon upgrades. I was level 20 on him, and jeez, I think he’s going to be a wall for a lot of players.



I'm actually really enjoying that the enemies actually act somewhat more like thinking persons would do, including sticking together and hanging out in big groups. The game wants you to think a bit more and use the stealth system or ranged attacks or whatever to handle normal enemies in a more manageable way, and will punish you for just wading into whatever comes your way. It's not a huge tweak to the formula but it does feel interesting to me that when I'm exploring there are more enemies than I can immediately see and I do have to actually be careful about how I start a fight.


----------



## LostTheTone

Also - Without getting spoilery, has anyone actually found a good weapon yet? So far the game feels quite DS3 with regards to weapons, where almost literally every weapon feels the same and has very similar damage output. I started with the katana because weeebsouls, but I found longsword which was the same damage and the move set feels a bit better. When I checked the merchants weapons they are all D-D scaling and have damn near identical stats.

I won't lie; I'm going to be super disappointed if they stuck with the DS3 model where most weapons are fine but none feel special. Part of what makes DS1 and 2 more special in my mind is finding and crafting a proper murder rake to smite your enemies with.


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> Also - Without getting spoilery, has anyone actually found a good weapon yet? So far the game feels quite DS3 with regards to weapons, where almost literally every weapon feels the same and has very similar damage output. I started with the katana because weeebsouls, but I found longsword which was the same damage and the move set feels a bit better. When I checked the merchants weapons they are all D-D scaling and have damn near identical stats.
> 
> I won't lie; I'm going to be super disappointed if they stuck with the DS3 model where most weapons are fine but none feel special. Part of what makes DS1 and 2 more special in my mind is finding and crafting a proper murder rake to smite your enemies with.


I got a named dagger off an invader npc that can spam huge blood projectiles and I found a twin blade in a chest. I’m not using either cause of my build, but they’re more interesting than the basics. I have a flail, too, but I think maybe that’s starting gear for some class?


----------



## jco5055

Oh man, I'm excited for it, I just slightly wish (as someone who platinumed DeS, DaS1+2, and BB) it was sliiiightly more forgiving, like you could at least pause properly haha.


----------



## cwhitey2

I have 8 hours logged so far. Running on ps4 without any issues at all. Im a samurai build and honestly want to start over 

The game is fairly difficult. You can deff go into the wrong area and destroyed immediately. 

Sneaking is key everything, as well as not taking on more than 1 enemy at a time.

Graphics are great, espessially for being on ps4.

So far im giving the game a 7/10. I need to get further into the game.


----------



## NoodleFace

About 10 hours in. Started as wretch and running my typical 2h str build. 

Beat a bunch of mini bosses.and the first real boss. Pretty good challenge here. The first boss definitely seems like it'll cock block new players. My friend took 125 attempts


----------



## MFB

Ugh, got to The Fell Omen, this dude definitely has Gascoigne vibes but without the big arena to play in. Fuck.


----------



## MFB

Stumbled on to the Tibia Mariner while exploring to level up, ALMOST had him on the first try but I ran out of flask. If I had one more charge I would've been safe. 

Dudes got Witch of Hemwick Charnel Lane vibes, but definitely more deadly than she was.


----------



## narad

Man, cresting the top of stormhill is so beautiful and some of the sense of scale is really great. I realize now that the little yellow waypoints on the map basically point in the direction you should be heading to advance the story, which explains why all my random exploring kept winding up in places that seemed very overpowered. Also got the twin blade, and while it's not amazing stat-wise, it's great fun to play.


----------



## MFB

I beat Tibia Mariner right after that last post, and an invading spirit (Anastasia, Tarnished Eater) at the Smoldering Church by the border of Cilead. I do NOT want to fuck with that place yet, all red skies and shit.

Lost to Margit a few more times, still feels bad but sounds like high teens in still a struggle for him and low-20s is average. I also randomly stumbled on a dragon and noped the fuck out of there too.


----------



## LostTheTone

MFB said:


> I beat Tibia Mariner right after that last post, and an invading spirit (Anastasia, Tarnished Eater) at the Smoldering Church by the border of Cilead. I do NOT want to fuck with that place yet, all red skies and shit.
> 
> Lost to Margit a few more times, still feels bad but sounds like high teens in still a struggle for him and low-20s is average. I also randomly stumbled on a dragon and noped the fuck out of there too.



I have been getting smacked about by Margit too - I feel like if I just really zoned in on him I could get through him, but decided to just farm up some levels and upgrade the old longsword to make it a bit easier. He's not super hard, but his timing is a bit tricky and there's nothing else in the arena to use to your advantage.


----------



## MFB

LostTheTone said:


> I have been getting smacked about by Margit too - I feel like if I just really zoned in on him I could get through him, but decided to just farm up some levels and upgrade the old longsword to make it a bit easier. He's not super hard, but his timing is a bit tricky and there's nothing else in the arena to use to your advantage.


Which longsword are you using, the base one? 

I always forget the carriages throughout contain chests, and the one in front of Stormgate contains the Lord Greatsword; so I switched to using that and haven't tried him since.


----------



## wankerness

If you’re a caster on margit you can use the ash summons as a distraction since they don’t increase his hp, unlike that garbage mage that can’t heal and thus is guaranteed to die long before the end, drawing out phase 2 and making the fight harder.

I’m a ways through the level after Margit, I took a lot of detours first. There are a couple super hardcore knights with wind weapon arts that killed me repeatedly. Think I’m close to the actual boss now.

I went to that area that the cursed treasure chest takes you - that was annoying. Got a lot of good upgrade materials from it and then found a great grinding zone where to a of soldiers are fighting giant dogs. Level 31 now.

Edit: man, phones cause a lot of typos


----------



## LostTheTone

MFB said:


> Which longsword are you using, the base one?
> 
> I always forget the carriages throughout contain chests, and the one in front of Stormgate contains the Lord Greatsword; so I switched to using that and haven't tried him since.



Oh really? Now thats good information


----------



## wankerness

Oh yeah, I killed some other boss that gave a trophy in some area called castle morne way down south. Beat him first try, Margit was a LOT harder. Probably would be harder for melee though.

I started fighting that mariner thing once but when I saw charged fireballs were taking off about 1/25 of his health and he was chain spawning zombies I got out of there in a huge hurry.


----------



## MFB

Haha, he has an attack that does AOE to his own allies so it makes the fight much easier. He's one you have to get right up on and basically negate the range he uses.

Beat Margit and made it into the castle, then walked through some door and got stomped by a knight. No idea what he is but he's beatable now that I know he's there.

Edit: has anyone actually found a ranged weapon? I have like 100 bolts and nothing to use them with.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Haha, he has an attack that does AOE to his own allies so it makes the fight much easier. He's one you have to get right up on and basically negate the range he uses.
> 
> Beat Margit and made it into the castle, then walked through some door and got stomped by a knight. No idea what he is but he's beatable now that I know he's there.
> 
> Edit: has anyone actually found a ranged weapon? I have like 100 bolts and nothing to use them with.


I got a good crossbow out of the keystone door in the round table area, haven’t seen any others besides one vendor that had a light crossbow. I want a regular bow but still haven’t found one.

I got a greatshield randomly dropped off an enemy, some day I’ll have the stats to use it!


----------



## KnightBrolaire

someone made kanye in the character creator


----------



## LostTheTone

KnightBrolaire said:


> someone made kanye in the character creator
> View attachment 103899



"Ye Chosen Undead"


----------



## MFB

Yo, Stormveil castle can suck my dick. This shit is so fucking convoluted, if you hate Sen's Fortress and somehow DON'T hate Stormveil then you're out of your fucking mind.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Yo, Stormveil castle can suck my dick. This shit is so fucking convoluted, if you hate Sen's Fortress and somehow DON'T hate Stormveil then you're out of your fucking mind.


I specifically hate the death traps in Sen's Fortress. Nothing in Stormveil Castle tries to knock you off the cliff or kills you instantly.

That said, it's HARD AS NAILS. I died a LOT to those super aggro knights with the wind weapon arts, those goddam birds with knives on their feet, and that fat asshole and his demonic fucking dog that are in that huge area with tons of crossbow dudes. Got to Godrick's boss door, then decided to run around and upgrade my flask a bit before trying him.

Difficulty in this game is DEFINITELY like late-game DS3. I'm sure things will feel a LOT easier when I'm more like level 80 and have some cushion to mana instead of having to chug a mana flask every 8 casts, etc. It's by far the hardest of the DS games. I'm not sure how high of a level you're supposed to be before trying to get through this zone, though. Maybe I'm doing it too low-level (still like level 30 cause i kept losing all my runes while clearing through).


----------



## MFB

Yeah, I'm currently stuck at the run between the talon eagles, the Banished Knights, and then getting to the courtyard that's just LOADED with guys. The only plus is that you get one chance to save after you use the lift to go back to the grace point, but even still that's ONE chance. 

I haven't found the next grace point after that, and last time I worked my way down the stairs trying to open the main gate but the archers fucked me up. I'm almost level 30 and I'm getting got pretty easily it feels like.

The best way I've heard the difficulty describes is that the enemies don't wait their turn; it's just, all them all the time and you have to get your shots in when you barely can. That counter attack is your best friend but even when your getting mobbed, you might not actually execute it if you trigger it.


----------



## Jake

Beat Margit earlier today. Currently getting my shit kicked in by Godrick lol. Game is great fun. I'm just going to need to grind A LOT it seems to really make it through. Time to upgrade some spirits and get some weapons to where they need to be.


----------



## wankerness

I’m getting the impression you are not supposed to be doing all of stormveil in one go, I’ve seen it suggested Godrick is tuned for level 40 or so. So, I got him to 20% once but it was dumb luck, I need to level further than 31 cause my damage is crap compared to a physical build and you can’t respec till you beat the second major boss (that’s not happening anytime soon, I’ve barely touched that zone). 

I like the game but it desperately needs some indicator that you’ve cleared dungeons visible from the map. And the auto-hiding HUD sucked bigtime for remembering what item you currently had selected, I had to turn back on the static HUD like in previous games.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Yeah, I'm currently stuck at the run between the talon eagles, the Banished Knights, and then getting to the courtyard that's just LOADED with guys. The only plus is that you get one chance to save after you use the lift to go back to the grace point, but even still that's ONE chance.
> 
> I haven't found the next grace point after that, and last time I worked my way down the stairs trying to open the main gate but the archers fucked me up. I'm almost level 30 and I'm getting got pretty easily it feels like.
> 
> The best way I've heard the difficulty describes is that the enemies don't wait their turn; it's just, all them all the time and you have to get your shots in when you barely can. That counter attack is your best friend but even when your getting mobbed, you might not actually execute it if you trigger it.


There’s a grace point right after the area with all the archer dudes, but you have to choose the right door to go through or you get mobbed by more birds etc.


----------



## SamSam

I beat Godrick yesterday at about level 25 (he drops 15k runes and i used them straight away so not sure what i was on).

You need to find the npc who becomes summonable after you exhaust her dialogue, she will tank him at least until about 25%.

You can use his soul to craft his arm!


----------



## Jake

Beat Godrick this morning at level 23. 40 seems like you'd be way overpowered and just crush him lol 

Honestly the castle was insanely difficult to get to him but once I learned his attack patterns and figured out the 2nd phase it was fine. 

I think getting all the endings of Sekiro prepared me for how punishing this game could be, but I'm absolutely loving it so far. I think it's good that the load times aren't bad at all so even when dying it's not so bad.


----------



## Mathemagician

Why am I in this thread? I know nothing and don’t want spoilers lol.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> There’s a grace point right after the area with all the archer dudes, but you have to choose the right door to go through or you get mobbed by more birds etc.


I made it!

Not only did I manage to kill two eagles without taking any damage, I got one of them to kill the other with it's barrel. So then I jumped down and sprinted past the Banished Knights, killed the Pike one that you have to, and fought through the courtyard before scoping it out all the doors. 

I knew it wasn't going to be the one down the stairs through a fog gate, obviously, but I really hoped sneaking around wouldn't trigger the big guy either.


----------



## MFB

Holy shit, I may have also found the shortcut to Godrick too without meaning to. The lever by that site of grace after the courtyard, if you take it and go down the ramp there's another grace point and it's by what looks to be a boss gate. 

Secluded Cell, no clue how I managed to do that but wow, saves me from going through a giant.


----------



## narad

Man, I went into cliffbottom catacombs and the doors closed behind me, and I'm pretty weak as far as getting through. I can't fast travel, so I don't know what to do... is there some magic way of getting out of here (or any situation where you're stuck and can't fast travel)?


----------



## pahulkster

On the fence with this one. Only played Dark Souls 3 and didn't finish it. For whatever reason I just couldn't beat the end boss and bailed after a ton of tries. Beat everyone else except Nameless King without too much trouble. I think my build was weird but I don't really remember at this point. I really like open world games but from what I've read this one is especially brutal so I don't really want to waste my time with something that is more frustrating than fun. 

Likely waiting until I can snag as PS5 anyway so it will be a while.


----------



## narad

narad said:


> Man, I went into cliffbottom catacombs and the doors closed behind me, and I'm pretty weak as far as getting through. I can't fast travel, so I don't know what to do... is there some magic way of getting out of here (or any situation where you're stuck and can't fast travel)?



Ah, I got it -- if I get right up against the door the fast travel is possible again.


----------



## wankerness

What build were you people who beat Godrick? Weapons/stats? I’m a faith build and I SUCK. Fireballs fully charged hit him for about 120. I have 23 faith iirc.


----------



## MFB

I got his health down to right under his title, but so far haven't managed to fully best him even with a cooperator. I got my flask to 7 charges, and I've used one tear to increase it's effect, but I still feel like I lose a lot when I get hit.

I think I'm at level 26/27 with strength and vitality at 23 each I think. My biggest thing is the Great Sword I'm using only gets in two swings vs three with a lighter weapon, so it's not a full "combo" as you'd expect.


----------



## Leviathus

Somersaulting goats.


----------



## Jake

wankerness said:


> What build were you people who beat Godrick? Weapons/stats? I’m a faith build and I SUCK. Fireballs fully charged hit him for about 120. I have 23 faith iirc.


Melee build, dex/strength- two handed Uchigatana, +1 Jellyfish spirit for aggro and I just dodged and chipped away as I could.


----------



## MFB

I can't figure out the spirits thing, I have the jellyfish and a couple others but can't actually USE them, what's the deal?

Anyone here got to Sofria River? Shit is a whole nother LEVEL UNDER THE MAP! I am FLOORED by this, like wow.


----------



## Choop

This game is really fun, but I feel like I'm experiencing a bit more input delay than previous Fromsoft games, especially with the dodge button. Also this is totally a me problem, but I really dislike the left analog click activating crouch. Like in theory it makes sense, but when I'm in a stressful fight occasionally I will press the stick in while moving and crouch, inevitably killing me. It happened a lot in Sekiro too. On the plus side, I've had really good performance with it today!


----------



## MFB

Checked the stats before I hung it up tonight, at level 30 and still haven't beat Godrick so I've been out and about exploring. Got the map for Siofra River and trying to complete that for the time being, it's MUCH bigger then expected.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I can't figure out the spirits thing, I have the jellyfish and a couple others but can't actually USE them, what's the deal?
> 
> Anyone here got to Sofria River? Shit is a whole nother LEVEL UNDER THE MAP! I am FLOORED by this, like wow.


I've found a couple of those underground places. One was full of ghost minotaurs that could archer me from across the map and I got really frustrated and left. It was so huge that there were multiple signs of grace. 

The summons only work IN THE BOSS ROOM or elsewhere that the tombstone looking icon shows up on the left side of the screen. You can't summon the ash until you go through the fog door on godrick, for example. But, you have to have gotten a certain item from a witch at night in the church at the beginning of the game (I didn't get it from her, somehow I progressed Roderika's quest and got it from her instead). 

The jellyfish is OP. 

Anyway I bruteforced Godrick by grinding a bit more (to level 41) and getting my flame catalyst thing to +8, just nuked him down with the jellyfish and the summon and he died before either summon. Annoying boss if you're a caster, cause his phase 2 makes it way too hard to keep distance from him enough to do anything and you can't stagger him unless you're melee. I'm respeccing to a melee build as soon as I can, I've heard casting scales REALLY poorly in this game - you don't get spells that are better than flame sling enough to justify the increased mana costs really besides BEAST SLASH and I'm a million years away from getting that cause you need 5 deathroot or whatever it is you get off mariner bosses, gotten 2 so far.

I got some cool scythe weapon somewhere out in the world that requires 16 str, 16 dex, and 24 faith, I'm going to try and get the stats for that next. Have the faith, but only 15 of str/dex. Hopefully it doesn't suck. Upgrade materials are a serious pain in the ass to farm in this game, though, so I probably won't be able to upgrade it. They're a very limited resource so far, unlike the dark souls games where as you progressed enemies started dropping low level upgrade materials like candy.

Got to a dungeon that was glitched in Liurnia, the entrance door had closed after I respawned and I thought I was screwed until I read a comment on reddit that you can get out by just getting close to the exit. Saw others complaining they spent 6 hours in there dying over and over cause it's really, really nasty.

Trying to find the next major castle now, found some nasty places like a big library-looking place populated by an extreme asshole mage that I stand no chance at defeating.


----------



## Naxxpipe

First FromSoft game for me as well. Getting shreked a lot. Only managed to beat the beast man after 6 tries, but the combat feel is slowly getting there. Tried walking up to Stormveil Castle front gate, got ballistaed. So now I am trying to find an alternate way into the keep.

So far quite fun and challenging. Seeing myself spending A LOT of hours on this one.


----------



## LostTheTone

Choop said:


> This game is really fun, but I feel like I'm experiencing a bit more input delay than previous Fromsoft games, especially with the dodge button. Also this is totally a me problem, but I really dislike the left analog click activating crouch. Like in theory it makes sense, but when I'm in a stressful fight occasionally I will press the stick in while moving and crouch, inevitably killing me. It happened a lot in Sekiro too. On the plus side, I've had really good performance with it today!



It may just be me, but I think that the impact from equip weight is quite a big bigger than previously. Switching from starter armor to naked felt like a huge jump, and not just in dodge but in all kinds of movement. The whole game suddenly felt very much snappier and more crisp on the dodge button.

I 100% agree that it's terrible to have the left stick click as a core control. It drives me crazy because now they have switched the not constantly used Y to doublehand into a more useful control, there is no reason why they can't fit all the actions on the face buttons.

Perhaps most bafflingly, I don't think you can switch to classic DS1 controls within the game. I have used reWASD to do mine; so I have Y as crouch, B as run, with double tap as jump, A as pickup, X as use item, and left stick click just does nothing. It feels way better this way to me. I initially tried having jump on L3, which worked somewhat, but it did lead to occasional random mid combat jumps which was better, since jumping at least is semi-dodge, but it wasn't great.


----------



## Choop

LostTheTone said:


> It may just be me, but I think that the impact from equip weight is quite a big bigger than previously. Switching from starter armor to naked felt like a huge jump, and not just in dodge but in all kinds of movement. The whole game suddenly felt very much snappier and more crisp on the dodge button.
> 
> I 100% agree that it's terrible to have the left stick click as a core control. It drives me crazy because now they have switched the not constantly used Y to doublehand into a more useful control, there is no reason why they can't fit all the actions on the face buttons.
> 
> Perhaps most bafflingly, I don't think you can switch to classic DS1 controls within the game. I have used reWASD to do mine; so I have Y as crouch, B as run, with double tap as jump, A as pickup, X as use item, and left stick click just does nothing. It feels way better this way to me. I initially tried having jump on L3, which worked somewhat, but it did lead to occasional random mid combat jumps which was better, since jumping at least is semi-dodge, but it wasn't great.



I'll have to try it with using less gear then...like my roll isn't slow, but it actuates just maybe half a second or so after pressing and releasing the button. Weird, like it just makes you have to anticipate attacks correctly and makes it much harder to dodge on reaction to fast attacks. Regarding the left stick crouch, I'm seriously considering getting an Elite controller or something and assigning crouch to one of the flappy fingers on the back.

I beat Margit last night finally as a straight up melee with no summons/spirits. What a ridiculous fight .-. I am going to have to put more focus on the spirit stuff.


----------



## wankerness

My character's at ~50% equip load (medium) and I've noticed no decline at all in terms of roll ability from DS3, which I always played as medium load. I don't have any issue with input delay, either. Maybe it's cause it's slowing down on your system? What are you running it on? I had a big issue on that in some areas of bloodborne, especially the graphically intense chalice dungeons where the framerate would chug.

The "fast roll" always made a big difference in earlier games. I can't even stand playing DS1 unless I'm under 25% equip load (the percentages on that game were whack, I am glad they went with the much more forgiving DS3 ones this time). 

Why on earth would you want to get the jump controls back to how they were in DS1? The jumping in that game was the worst thing ever. Especially when trying to jump off a narrow platform. You'd hit circle from a standing position, your character would do a backstep, and many times my first playthrough I'd backstep RIGHT OFF THE CLIFF. It was so infuriating. I greatly preferred the sequels where they split it out, even though clicking L3 to jump wasn't my idea of a good time, either. In DS2/DS3 I always used the back left paddle on my controller for L3 (jump) and back right paddle for O (run). 

I would very, very highly recommend getting the button addon if you're playing this on PS4/Ps4 Pro. Being able to adjust the camera during combat is a total gamechanger on a lot of bosses. Suddenly you can fight unlocked without using some crazy claw grip that gives you instant tendonitis. I have a modded button addon for PS5, which works fine for face buttons, but obviously it's non-adaptive so triggers don't feel as cool, and you can't bind L3/R3 to the back paddles without doing soldering, which I definitely wasn't going to bother with. Still, just using the back right paddle for O has been really nice.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> I've found a couple of those underground places. One was full of ghost minotaurs that could archer me from across the map and I got really frustrated and left. It was so huge that there were multiple signs of grace.
> 
> The summons only work IN THE BOSS ROOM or elsewhere that the tombstone looking icon shows up on the left side of the screen. You can't summon the ash until you go through the fog door on godrick, for example. But, you have to have gotten a certain item from a witch at night in the church at the beginning of the game (I didn't get it from her, somehow I progressed Roderika's quest and got it from her instead).
> 
> The jellyfish is OP.



That explains it then as I never got that item and I must not have exhausted what's her names dialogue options; I was talking with my coworker earlier and it sounds like there's way more areas to explore than I realized, so I'm going to go back to the beginning and clear up some additional mini-bosses and get some of those items to help.

Yeah, that sounds like Sofria's River then as I've run into the same ghost minotaurs; they're fine to 1v1 or maybe even 2v1, but the dude's with the long pikes will do some real damage if you're not careful. I'm in the process of lighting all the torches to activate the boss's chamber, looks like there's currently two optional ones down there.


----------



## Choop

wankerness said:


> My character's at ~50% equip load (medium) and I've noticed no decline at all in terms of roll ability from DS3, which I always played as medium load. I don't have any issue with input delay, either. Maybe it's cause it's slowing down on your system? What are you running it on? I had a big issue on that in some areas of bloodborne, especially the graphically intense chalice dungeons where the framerate would chug.
> 
> The "fast roll" always made a big difference in earlier games. I can't even stand playing DS1 unless I'm under 25% equip load (the percentages on that game were whack, I am glad they went with the much more forgiving DS3 ones this time).
> 
> Why on earth would you want to get the jump controls back to how they were in DS1? The jumping in that game was the worst thing ever. Especially when trying to jump off a narrow platform. You'd hit circle from a standing position, your character would do a backstep, and many times my first playthrough I'd backstep RIGHT OFF THE CLIFF. It was so infuriating. I greatly preferred the sequels where they split it out, even though clicking L3 to jump wasn't my idea of a good time, either. In DS2/DS3 I always used the back left paddle on my controller for L3 (jump) and back right paddle for O (run).
> 
> I would very, very highly recommend getting the button addon if you're playing this on PS4/Ps4 Pro. Being able to adjust the camera during combat is a total gamechanger on a lot of bosses. Suddenly you can fight unlocked without using some crazy claw grip that gives you instant tendonitis. I have a modded button addon for PS5, which works fine for face buttons, but obviously it's non-adaptive so triggers don't feel as cool, and you can't bind L3/R3 to the back paddles without doing soldering, which I definitely wasn't going to bother with. Still, just using the back right paddle for O has been really nice.



I'm on PC with a pretty high end system -- it isn't a slowdown problem as far as I can tell. Somebody else mentioned that it could be equip load as well, so I'll try with a lower % and see if that changes anything. It's not really the speed of the roll, but I notice a half second or so delay from the time I release the B button to the time my character does the dodge roll. Seems like it wouldn't matter much, but it makes it really hard to reaction dodge to fast attacks. And I don't have a problem with jumps (definitely don't want to go back to doing the L3 hop jump thing, gross!), just with depressing the L3 and accidentally crouching. I can't tell if it's just my controller or what, but it's making me want to just get an elite controller and map crouch to a back paddle if that is a possibility.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Why on earth would you want to get the jump controls back to how they were in DS1?



Because I'm used to them?

The game isn't a precision platformer. Jumping is more common in Elden Ring but only a bit and I definitely do not like giving up a core face button for command I never use under pressure.


----------



## Choop

It really is weird, trying to merge Souls and Sekiro movement attributes into one. I like having jump on a button since there is so much more vertical movement in the game, but that L3 crouch kills me lol. I don't know what would be better short of having more controller buttons. All the face buttons are occupied with crucial commands.


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> Because I'm used to them?
> 
> The game isn't a precision platformer. Jumping is more common in Elden Ring but only a bit and I definitely do not like giving up a core face button for command I never use under pressure.


It IS a precision platformer in some areas, though, like just this morning I had to climb around the exterior of some tower. And combine that with sometimes needing to use the horse for jumping, while circle causes the horse to do a turbo dash, and that sounds like a recipe for a lot of problems! Especially since the horse can also double-jump.


----------



## wankerness

Choop said:


> I'm on PC with a pretty high end system -- it isn't a slowdown problem as far as I can tell. Somebody else mentioned that it could be equip load as well, so I'll try with a lower % and see if that changes anything. It's not really the speed of the roll, but I notice a half second or so delay from the time I release the B button to the time my character does the dodge roll. Seems like it wouldn't matter much, but it makes it really hard to reaction dodge to fast attacks. And I don't have a problem with jumps (definitely don't want to go back to doing the L3 hop jump thing, gross!), just with depressing the L3 and accidentally crouching. I can't tell if it's just my controller or what, but it's making me want to just get an elite controller and map crouch to a back paddle if that is a possibility.


Again, there's none of that delay at all on PS5. I dunno. I wouldn't be surprised if it's something with whatever controller you're using, drivers, and/or the PC version's communication with it. Though the way you keep describing "half second after releasing the button" makes it sound like maybe you're holding it down or something? On PS5 it triggers as soon as you press it down instead of after you release, which makes me wonder even more if it's a PC/Controller problem specifically.


----------



## Choop

wankerness said:


> Again, there's none of that delay at all on PS5. I dunno. I wouldn't be surprised if it's something with whatever controller you're using, drivers, and/or the PC version's communication with it. Though the way you keep describing "half second after releasing the button" makes it sound like maybe you're holding it down or something? On PS5 it triggers as soon as you press it down instead of after you release, which makes me wonder even more if it's a PC/Controller problem specifically.



You can't hold it down because you start running if you hold it. I've looked it up and people have echoed the same response on Reddit across all systems, so I have no idea. I think it could probably just be an equipment load thing, though. I really hope it isn't an input delay problem with the controller, though I've played the other Fromsoft games and never felt it quite like this one. I'll play around with it more later and see if I can improve it at all.


----------



## stevexc

Choop said:


> You can't hold it down because you start running if you hold it. I've looked it up and people have echoed the same response on Reddit across all systems, so I have no idea. I think it could probably just be an equipment load thing, though. I really hope it isn't an input delay problem with the controller, though I've played the other Fromsoft games and never felt it quite like this one. I'll play around with it more later and see if I can improve it at all.


If it helps, I'm seeing a very, very slight delay after the button releases and the animation seems to begin, but it feels in line with medium rolls on DS3. PC with a USB 360 controller.

I'm absolutely loving the game overall, I gotta say. There's definitely some technical issues with it, but underneath that the game is absolutely fantastic - and those issues really don't affect me in any way. The stutters kinda suck but they're fairly rare for me. I don't have a beast of a computer - it's newer, but midrange - so I'm running it on Medium, but it still looks fantastic aside from some oddities in shadows.


----------



## Blytheryn

Finally fought my way to Godric at level 25. That courtyard before is pure murder.

Level design is fantastic.


----------



## wankerness

Man, people who went melee are making me jealous. The optimization you can do in just pumping Str and HP and nothing else while being totally effective is so jealousy-inducing. I have to do str, dex, vit, mind, and faith!! I have something like 15 vit, 20 mind, 17 str, 16 dex, and 28 faith. Gah.

Starting using the Winged Scythe, it's pretty good. I had the stuff to upgrade it to +3 (it's like a boss weapon or whatever that upgrades with the forlorn stones). The spread and reach are quite a bit better than the stupid pokey short spear I'd been using since it was my starting weapon. You can't enchant it, but oh well. I got str up to 17 so I can use the Grave Scythe with a holy enchant in tandem with it - I've heard that's beastly. However, I'd need to increase endurance to stay under 70% load with that setup unless I wanted to totally unequip my shield.

Lightning Spear is pretty good - it flies in a straight line and has considerably more range than the fireball, so that's nice for nailing imps and stuff from out of aggro range. It only does like 20% more damage and uses a lot more mana, but oh well, it's worth it when I can take down really threatening melee mobs before they can even get to me. Currently I have my flasks set to 5 health 4 mana so it's mostly working out, just sort of annoying having to switch back and forth between flasks all the time in combat.

Next I guess I'll poke my head into the second big boss level, which I guess is on the north end of Limurnia. I haven't really gone anywhere close to it yet despite having grace points all over the zone. This zone is GIGANTIC. I don't know what you're supposed to do with some mobs/areas yet - ex, those gigantic stone turtle things with the bell towers on them. Also, I haven't engaged any of the dragons yet, I'm guessing they'd just wreck me? I've killed a couple giant minibosses in the open world (one was in front of some tower that wouldn't unlock till he died - he had a hugeass weapon and could hit me from like 200 yds away).


----------



## Flappydoodle

CovertSovietBear said:


> So Ghosts of Tsushima with another skin



Good god no. Ghost is your typical open world quest game like Farcry. Fun, but very, very shallow. Go to location x and get item Y and bring to person z. Fight off a Mongol horde at this waypoint marker. Collect these various collectibles - artifacts, banners etc. Labelled main quests and subquests, so you know when you’re moving the main story along or just upgrading your XP. 

Elden Ring is using the Souls game mechanics. No real quests. Certainly not labelled anywhere. No (or very few) waypoints or explicit directions. I don’t think there are any collectable items where you need to get all 30.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Man, people who went melee are making me jealous.



Melee is not spectacular but it is always reliable in Souls games. Anything else strongly depends on getting the appropriate gear and infusions and upgrades to make a really powerful weapon out of it. And that in turn makes up for being dependant on so many different attributes. Once the wikis are all collated, casting will definitely be much more powerful but while you're still on your first run through you almost always end up wasting some attribute points.

I'm definitely all in for melee in this first play through. It's how I've always done it, and there is always a good variety of weapons for Quality builds. I'm feeling good about this Heavy Lordsworn's Greatsword at the moment, but I am keeping my eye out for a Zweihander or similar.

Gigantic swords are the Souls spirit animal.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> It IS a precision platformer in some areas, though, like just this morning I had to climb around the exterior of some tower. And combine that with sometimes needing to use the horse for jumping, while circle causes the horse to do a turbo dash, and that sounds like a recipe for a lot of problems! Especially since the horse can also double-jump.



Perhaps I'll encounter more of that as I go, but I haven't had any problems with the DS1 style jumping set-up. For things like climbing rock faces, where you do several jumps in a row, there is a knack to it but it's not hard. You do like hold-tap, hold-tap, hold-tap. It's not a problem.


----------



## SamSam

wankerness said:


> Next I guess I'll poke my head into the second big boss level, which I guess is on the north end of Limurnia. I haven't really gone anywhere close to it yet despite having grace points all over the zone. This zone is GIGANTIC. I don't know what you're supposed to do with some mobs/areas yet - ex, those gigantic stone turtle things with the bell towers on them. Also, I haven't engaged any of the dragons yet, I'm guessing they'd just wreck me? I've killed a couple giant minibosses in the open world (one was in front of some tower that wouldn't unlock till he died - he had a hugeass weapon and could hit me from like 200 yds away).




Go kill the first dragon by the starting area. He's not as tough as he looks!


----------



## MFB

Man, I could NOT getting anything going last night; tried to push further into Siofra River, got merc'd by the god damn ghost archers' magic arrows. Left to go exploring around, got merc'd by some random dudes and enemies. Found a new area right at the start of the game, there's a giant roving enemy in front of it that legit 1-shots you if he hits and that's after running through a poison pool to get to him. Trying to push through past him but it's sort of like Sen's Fortress with the boulders, but I'm determine to god damn it!


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Man, I could NOT getting anything going last night; tried to push further into Siofra River, got merc'd by the god damn ghost archers' magic arrows. Left to go exploring around, got merc'd by some random dudes and enemies. Found a new area right at the start of the game, there's a giant roving enemy in front of it that legit 1-shots you if he hits and that's after running through a poison pool to get to him. Trying to push through past him but it's sort of like Sen's Fortress with the boulders, but I'm determine to god damn it!


I guess I haven't found that area with the boulders! Where is it roughly? You mean by the cave of knowledge or whatever?

I got a bunch accomplished last night, got the halves of the medallion (the second half is VERY hard cause you have to fight harpies with a ton of hp that can poison you really fast) to activate the great lift to altus plateau and then ran around there for a long time. It's weird how the high level zones will still have dungeons here and there that you can creep through at a low level. So, after running past tons of horrific pig-snorting enemies that looked like the snatchers from Bloodborne that I couldn't risk fighting, I followed a ghost to a mine I had to unlock with a stonesword key, which I was easily able to clear out for a ton of really high level smithing materials. I got a Somber Smithing Stone [6] and now my winged scythe is pretty overpowered, hits for like 350. Of course, it's split damage, so I might still be screwed on the upcoming main boss, but hey, it does bleed damage too and supposedly she's weak to that.

Also, I found another castle way up north in Liurnia where you get magic arrows rained on you nonstop until you get to the entrance, upon which you get attacked by these giant horrific things that are like hand-tarantulas with fingers for legs that absolutely massacred me. Awesome.

There was a giant blacksmith somewhere or else that sold somber smithing stones 1-4 and also told me he'd smash me if I got too close. Fun guy. I also discovered through the internet that there are items like the ashes from DS3 that you can give to the withered sisters vendor in the round table to unlock things like smithing stones from them, too. I need to get that. I guess the first tier of that item is in that hell mine dungeon that you get teleported to by the trap chest. I might have to go back to it and try to clear it out, but I bet I'll get stomped by the boss.


----------



## MFB

Yeah, once you exit the Cave of Knowledge and see the title for Stranded Graveyard there's a fog wall on the right; use a keystone to clear that out and if you jump down it's a poison pool. You can get out before poison sets in, but then if you turn the corner and rush ahead you'll probably run headfirst into the roller one-shot enemy.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Yeah, once you exit the Cave of Knowledge and see the title for Stranded Graveyard there's a fog wall on the right; use a keystone to clear that out and if you jump down it's a poison pool. You can get out before poison sets in, but then if you turn the corner and rush ahead you'll probably run headfirst into the roller one-shot enemy.


Oh that, I saw that but didn't want to risk wasting a keystone. Seriously the amount of fog doors in this game relative to keystones I found is infuriating. I'm so scared to "waste" one. The one I used yesterday ended up paying off enormously but I only used it cause I was chased into an alcove and that was the only escape!


----------



## narad

Just got through with Margit. I seem to be weaker in terms of my damage per hit than any of the other melee guys going at him on youtube so I was struggling. I could basically get hit zero times until he pulled out the hammer, but afterwards I was getting clobbered -- there was just no time I could get a hit in without winding up in range for AoE counters. Took a break, went around, bought some new summons. Tried again -- got him down to half life and brought out the wolves, and it was trivially easy. Maybe that's cheap but I'll take it.


----------



## stevexc

32 hours in and just faced off against Godrick (twice) and failed (twice). These fights are fucking great. That second phase, damn. Glad I decided to take out the troll opposite the fog door and explore down that way first, some cool stuff there. Troll was super easy to cheese too haha.


----------



## Mathemagician

Wow this game is big. I ran straight for the big guy on the bridge with lightning knives and after 2-3 deaths thought “huh maybe this guy is too tough for me right now”. Went out and killed some random small dungeon bosses. Trying SO hard (and succeeding) to not use guides. Went wizard and don’t regret it.


Ok now for some “bad”. Has ANYONE else thought the camera is “too fast” when moving it around? Idk if it’s the draw distance being so far/good or what. But I had to reduce camera speed down to 1 and it just barely feels ok. Never felt that before so for me it’s unique to this game.

Like it moves so fast I can’t easily scan the distance because it just whips around like an FPS.


----------



## CTID

man. i've put almost 50 hours into this since thursday. game is BIG big and 9/10 times i'm really enjoying it.

that being said i do feel like some enemies are just TOO fast for how quick you can be. also wtf happened to being invulnerable when you're knocked down by an attack? i've been killed a ton recently by enemy combos that kill me before i can even get back up. really frustrating whenever that happens.

overall very very good tho


----------



## stevexc

Mathemagician said:


> Ok now for some “bad”. Has ANYONE else thought the camera is “too fast” when moving it around? Idk if it’s the draw distance being so far/good or what. But I had to reduce camera speed down to 1 and it just barely feels ok. Never felt that before so for me it’s unique to this game.
> 
> Like it moves so fast I can’t easily scan the distance because it just whips around like an FPS.



Are you using mouse + keyboard or controller?

The game is 100% intended to be played with a controller... I haven't heard of anyone, or at least many people, having success with mouse and keyboard. Reducing mouse sensitivity via DPI while in game might be an option in that case?


----------



## Blytheryn

LostTheTone said:


> Melee is not spectacular but it is always reliable in Souls games. Anything else strongly depends on getting the appropriate gear and infusions and upgrades to make a really powerful weapon out of it. And that in turn makes up for being dependant on so many different attributes. Once the wikis are all collated, casting will definitely be much more powerful but while you're still on your first run through you almost always end up wasting some attribute points.
> 
> I'm definitely all in for melee in this first play through. It's how I've always done it, and there is always a good variety of weapons for Quality builds. I'm feeling good about this Heavy Lordsworn's Greatsword at the moment, but I am keeping my eye out for a Zweihander or similar.
> 
> Gigantic swords are the Souls spirit animal.


Zweihander is in Castle Morne IIRC.


----------



## LostTheTone

Blytheryn said:


> Zweihander is in Castle Morne IIRC.



I'll have a nose and see what I can find - I did stumble across a Claymore though, in a castle in the south. The boss for that area also drops an Ultra Greatsword which I am excited to try out in 3 more levels time when I have the strength.


----------



## stevexc

It's just the Claymore (plus the boss drop) in Morne as far as big silly swords go, Zweihander is actually purchaseable from the Merchant on the west end of the zone. I mean you can probably find it elsewhere, but he has it for sure.


----------



## Mathemagician

stevexc said:


> Are you using mouse + keyboard or controller?
> 
> The game is 100% intended to be played with a controller... I haven't heard of anyone, or at least many people, having success with mouse and keyboard. Reducing mouse sensitivity via DPI while in game might be an option in that case?



I play on PS5. So just the normal controller.


----------



## MFB

You're not wrong, I immediately turned the camera speed down by two notches after I started my game.

Do some more exploring tonight, knocked out the boss that's by the start of the game; the dog statue thing by all the gargoyles. I tried to also tried to take out Ulcerated Tree Guardian (or Spirit?) but he uh, is stronger than he looks. Just getting to him is a bit of a pain in the ass since the roller one shots you.


----------



## Empryrean

i am getting my ass handed to me hardcore. I'm post Godric but it feels like I'm either under leveled or I totally specced my build wrong cause I can't kill stuff fast enough/ im being stunlocked to death/I can't evade(maybe I should work on that)


----------



## Blytheryn

LostTheTone said:


> I'll have a nose and see what I can find - I did stumble across a Claymore though, in a castle in the south. The boss for that area also drops an Ultra Greatsword which I am excited to try out in 3 more levels time when I have the strength.


My bad, here is where it is. 

“Simply cross the ‘Bridge of Sacrifice’ and then continue along the main path. There will be a slight fork in the road that you can opt to take a path that goes to the left. Venture to the left and then you’ll want to keep heading along that road all of the way. There’s a merchant there next to a site of Lost Grace who sells it for 3500 runes.”


----------



## LostTheTone

Empryrean said:


> i am getting my ass handed to me hardcore. I'm post Godric but it feels like I'm either under leveled or I totally specced my build wrong cause I can't kill stuff fast enough/ im being stunlocked to death/I can't evade(maybe I should work on that)



It's possible all of those things are true. If you're being swarmed by mobs you can't just carve through you probably aren't doing enough damage, so look at weapon upgrades or stats. If you are just being smacked about by asshole enemies who seem to hit you faster than you can deal with, then alas you will just have to git gud. A lot of that is just familiarity rather than skill. 

Oh and use a shield (and actually block) and wear armor.


----------



## LostTheTone

I would like to add that Erdtree Burial Watchdog is one of the worst designed boss fights in Souls history. It's one big but very fast boss, with 4 small skittering sidekicks that quickly dodge in and out of range, but somehow hit hard enough to stun lock and which also have projectile attacks that do bleed. All five guys in a tiny room with zero bits of terrain you can use.

Capra Demon is a pretty badly designed fight, but at least there are only two dogs and they always just attack you, and you can use the stairs to separate them from Capra. This Erdtree fight is clearly just designed to be frustrating, but not to actually be difficult. And his attack patterns are horrible, very very fast from starting to strike to it landing, and autotracking you around the room. This just feels lazy design, especially for a three headed fire breatheing doggo boss.


----------



## Naxxpipe

Only 7 hours in now, but getting the hang of combat more and more. The exploration and constant small discoveries are top notch.

Haven't been constantly as excited about a video game in many years.


----------



## LostTheTone

Naxxpipe said:


> Only 7 hours in now, but getting the hang of combat more and more. The exploration and constant small discoveries are top notch.
> 
> Haven't been constantly as excited about a video game in many years.



Yeah, I don't think we've spoken about it much yet but I think that the exploration is a really good addition to the game formula. If you're stuck on a boss, you can go somewhere else and still make progress and find some items and generally build your skills up. It's not quite exactly perfect, because there are times where you are just kinda nosing about not doing anything in particular. But the world feels a lot more alive than it did before. Running into mini-stories and adventures that actually get their own place to happen is great. Sometimes they are just a dungeon, but sometimes they are a ghost infested village or a castle that's been taken over by bad guys. The theme and the feel is different, but it does get that New Vegas thing right where you just kinda wanna wander and see what happens.


----------



## cwhitey2

I think I finally figured this game out 

I never played any of the other soul games so I'm new to their 'style of play'. I have been grinding for about 8 hours and just realized you can/have to sell those stupid shards you pick up for experience points. Went from level 17 to 26 just like that and now my character actually feels like they can hold their own for the most part.

I have only beat one boss (the guy in the boat with the horn)...I have just been exploring the map and grinding. I have to say the map is fantastic. I found the elevator that takes you down that takes you to the map underground...and realized quickly that I F'd up as they enemies down there will kick your ass quickly/not take that much damage (this was before I found out about sell the shards, so that may have been the issue.)

Overall, I'm liking the game more and more each day.


----------



## Siggevaio

I'm 20 hours in and I just want to play more and more and more and more. I wish I could pause my life for a week and just play Elden Ring.


----------



## LostTheTone

Siggevaio said:


> I'm 20 hours in and I just want to play more and more and more and more. I wish I could pause my life for a week and just play Elden Ring.



You and me both man - I'm super frustrated that I've had a studio day and a much belated family Christmas (TLR my sister got Covid) mean I haven't had a whole day to just sit and play.


----------



## Tree

I've only been able to play for a few hours so far (~5), so I've been avoiding actually reading this thread and pretty much everything online to avoid spoilers. 

I Google searched this, but immediately saw every result was name dropping specific bosses or NPCs, so I nope-d out right away. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to indefinitely re-spec a la Rosaria glitch in DS3? Just a simple "yes" or "no". I don't want to know how, when, or where . Just knowing that it's possible is all I need.


----------



## wankerness

Tree said:


> I've only been able to play for a few hours so far (~5), so I've been avoiding actually reading this thread and pretty much everything online to avoid spoilers.
> 
> I Google searched this, but immediately saw every result was name dropping specific bosses or NPCs, so I nope-d out right away. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to indefinitely re-spec a la Rosaria glitch in DS3? Just a simple "yes" or "no". I don't want to know how, when, or where . Just knowing that it's possible is all I need.


I don’t know about infinitely respec but I know respec period is locked behind the second major story boss (Godrick being the first).


----------



## Mathemagician

Tree said:


> I've only been able to play for a few hours so far (~5), so I've been avoiding actually reading this thread and pretty much everything online to avoid spoilers.
> 
> I Google searched this, but immediately saw every result was name dropping specific bosses or NPCs, so I nope-d out right away. Can anyone tell me if there is a way to indefinitely re-spec a la Rosaria glitch in DS3? Just a simple "yes" or "no". I don't want to know how, when, or where . Just knowing that it's possible is all I need.



I’m in the same boat as you and the only no-spoilies answer I got about respec-ing easily is “yes you can do it”. 

Don’t know if it requires items or not, or whether the item would be farmable. Hopefully someone else chimes in.


----------



## Tree

wankerness said:


> I don’t know about infinitely respec but I know respec period is locked behind the second major story boss (Godrick being the first).


Gotcha, thank you! 

I’m probably overthinking potential builds, but I’d rather not have to make 5 or so characters all at level 125 for endgame PVP if that’s where the community lands as usual.


----------



## Choop

Gonna start dipping into the faith stat so I can utilize some cool spells, pretty much being a Str/Faith build. Mostly I just want to use pyro stuff, but some of the other faith spells could also be very fun to play with.


----------



## LostTheTone

Choop said:


> Gonna start dipping into the faith stat so I can utilize some cool spells, pretty much being a Str/Faith build. Mostly I just want to use pyro stuff, but some of the other faith spells could also be very fun to play with.



Historically Faith has always been substantially better for a hybrid build - Lightning spear is traditionally fucking broken, and lightning damage is generally the best element.


----------



## Wildebeest

Didn't read the thread bc I don't wanna read any spoilies but this game is really something else. I hope you guys are having a blast like I am. I'll come back when I have it beaten.


----------



## Mathemagician

Wildebeest said:


> Didn't read the thread bc I don't wanna read any spoilies but this game is really something else. I hope you guys are having a blast like I am. I'll come back when I have it beaten.



I’m liking the game enough that I keep clicking on YouTube videos then immediately exiting because like I don’t want to spoil cool parts or item locations or w/e. There’s always another replay. And I know I usually take my first chat to like level one billiondy on NG+’s. 

It’s good game design when pacing yourself as the player is the issue.


----------



## wankerness

I'm finding it impossible to play without looking anything up cause there's NO hints in the game for some things that are really arcane. Ex, NPC disappears and you have to talk to them at some total other location in a total different zone with no clues at all and you have to do it before you kill X boss or you fail their quest and can't get some crucial item for an alternate ending. Etc. As usual they're all "optional" but it seems like there IS content gated behind them that's missable.

I have grinded out a LOT of upgrade stuff and spent a ton of time running around in circles all over the map. As a result, I now have that +6 Winged Spear and have my spirit wolves at +7, so I'm a super glass cannon. Like, I killed the first boss of the second "legacy dungeon" in ~7 swings, but he killed me a couple times cause every attack he did took off 3/4 of my health bar!! All stat points are going to go towards Vit from now on.

Those salivating over faith builds, I dunno - the damage on spells REALLY doesn't scale that well. I have my basic faith catalyst at +7 now and my lightning spears hit for like 15% more than the basic "Flame Sling" fireball, it's nice for sniping people but it EATS mana (I have 21 mind, and can only cast it like 5 times before having to use a flask). It's definitely great for dealing with some awful invader NPCs, but on things that get in your face or non-trivial bosses you're MUCH better off just going melee in my experience.

I got an unbelievably overpowered ash companion thing from a cavern in the lake area, this guy basically is a full-blown phantom npc minus the heals. The guy took off like 1/3 of the first boss's health in that legacy dungeon himself and wasn't even close to dying. I put most of my upgrade mats towards the wolves already, I wish I'd gotten this guy first cause he's just beast mode.

I spent a lot of time running all over the place in the second legacy dungeon. It's HUGE, and as with the previous one, the paths are not very obvious. I went on some really long detours with weapons at the end that were useless for my build (I have a lot of fancy staves, for example). Eventually just got frustrated and looked up how to get to the last boss, and it was a path that looked like I couldn't make the jump to it that I could have gone for hours ago.

All the people talking about boss runbacks being great in this game obviously didn't make it too far into the game - I've encountered a couple worse than anything in Dark Souls, like you have to clear out 15+ mobs that are anything but trivial. The ones on Margit and Godrick and several of the minor dungeons lull you into a false sense of security.

One other complaint I have besides the Dark Souls NPC quests not being adjusted to compensate for the infinitely bigger world - this game needs some kind of tracker for when you've completed an area. My map is filling up with teleporters to dungeons and there's NO indicator of whether I killed the boss in it or not. I started putting skull stamps on any marked landmark with a boss that I killed, but the game only lets you put down 100 markers total so I dunno if I'll eventually run out.


----------



## wankerness

Wow, beat Rennala first try when I went in with 2 healing potions expecting to get stomped in first phase but didn't want to re-clear. Only had to heal twice, I guess my weapon did enough damage combined with spirit wolves interrupting her casts that the whole fight was a total joke. The run back SUCKS, though, so I'm glad I didn't have to do it. Either have to go up a ramp with giant ball bearings of death ricocheting around on it, or go through a huge pack of sorcerers. 

This build is currently working out so I guess I won't respec just yet.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> I have grinded out a LOT of upgrade stuff and spent a ton of time running around in circles all over the map. As a result, I now have that +6 Winged Spear and have my spirit wolves at +7, so I'm a super glass cannon. Like, I killed the first boss of the second "legacy dungeon" in ~7 swings, but he killed me a couple times cause every attack he did took off 3/4 of my health bar!! All stat points are going to go towards Vit from now on.
> 
> Those salivating over faith builds, I dunno - the damage on spells REALLY doesn't scale that well. I have my basic faith catalyst at +7 now and my lightning spears hit for like 15% more than the basic "Flame Sling" fireball, it's nice for sniping people but it EATS mana (I have 21 mind, and can only cast it like 5 times before having to use a flask). It's definitely great for dealing with some awful invader NPCs, but on things that get in your face or non-trivial bosses you're MUCH better off just going melee in my experience.
> 
> I got an unbelievably overpowered ash companion thing from a cavern in the lake area, this guy basically is a full-blown phantom npc minus the heals. The guy took off like 1/3 of the first boss's health in that legacy dungeon himself and wasn't even close to dying. I put most of my upgrade mats towards the wolves already, I wish I'd gotten this guy first cause he's just beast mode.
> 
> I spent a lot of time running all over the place in the second legacy dungeon. It's HUGE, and as with the previous one, the paths are not very obvious. I went on some really long detours with weapons at the end that were useless for my build (I have a lot of fancy staves, for example). Eventually just got frustrated and looked up how to get to the last boss, and it was a path that looked like I couldn't make the jump to it that I could have gone for hours ago.
> 
> All the people talking about boss runbacks being great in this game obviously didn't make it too far into the game - I've encountered a couple worse than anything in Dark Souls, like you have to clear out 15+ mobs that are anything but trivial. The ones on Margit and Godrick and several of the minor dungeons lull you into a false sense of security.
> 
> One other complaint I have besides the Dark Souls NPC quests not being adjusted to compensate for the infinitely bigger world - this game needs some kind of tracker for when you've completed an area. My map is filling up with teleporters to dungeons and there's NO indicator of whether I killed the boss in it or not. I started putting skull stamps on any marked landmark with a boss that I killed, but the game only lets you put down 100 markers total so I dunno if I'll eventually run out.



Ooh, can you please give more information about where to find this OP ash companion?


----------



## cwhitey2

Flappydoodle said:


> Ooh, can you please give more information about where to find this OP ash companion?


This.


----------



## wankerness

It’s dropped by the boss in a cavern in southeast liurnia. Called Kaiden sellsword.


----------



## Choop

wankerness said:


> Those salivating over faith builds, I dunno - the damage on spells REALLY doesn't scale that well. I have my basic faith catalyst at +7 now and my lightning spears hit for like 15% more than the basic "Flame Sling" fireball, it's nice for sniping people but it EATS mana (I have 21 mind, and can only cast it like 5 times before having to use a flask). It's definitely great for dealing with some awful invader NPCs, but on things that get in your face or non-trivial bosses you're MUCH better off just going melee in my experience.



I was thinking to do predominantly strength and use faith for utility stuff or potential weapon buffs. Have you come across any elemental weapon buffs yet in the game, like a version of flame weapon?


----------



## LostTheTone

Choop said:


> I was thinking to do predominantly strength and use faith for utility stuff or potential weapon buffs. Have you come across any elemental weapon buffs yet in the game, like a version of flame weapon?



There's a sunlight blade type enchantment available not too far in - Think I first saw it for sale at the round table just after I beat Margit. No idea how good it is; I don't have 13INT and 13 FAITH but it's definitely there.


----------



## stevexc

LostTheTone said:


> I would like to add that Erdtree Burial Watchdog is one of the worst designed boss fights in Souls history. It's one big but very fast boss, with 4 small skittering sidekicks that quickly dodge in and out of range, but somehow hit hard enough to stun lock and which also have projectile attacks that do bleed. All five guys in a tiny room with zero bits of terrain you can use.
> 
> Capra Demon is a pretty badly designed fight, but at least there are only two dogs and they always just attack you, and you can use the stairs to separate them from Capra. This Erdtree fight is clearly just designed to be frustrating, but not to actually be difficult. And his attack patterns are horrible, very very fast from starting to strike to it landing, and autotracking you around the room. This just feels lazy design, especially for a three headed fire breatheing doggo boss.



I don't know if I fully agree - I definitely had trouble with it initially, but once I levelled up some summons it was manageable if not trivial. The Lone Wolf summon is great for stuff like that. They distracted the boss and some of the adds while I cleaned them up, then focussed down the boss. I think they're trying to emphasize that using the summons isn't cheating, but a mechanic you're expected to use. It's not the greatest fight overall though.



Choop said:


> I was thinking to do predominantly strength and use faith for utility stuff or potential weapon buffs. Have you come across any elemental weapon buffs yet in the game, like a version of flame weapon?



There's a few. I've found the Sacred, Magic, and Blood weapon ashes so far, they've all got the option to give your weapon that damage type as well as the skill if you want.


----------



## Oxygen Hands

Sick game so far, I was expecting a bit more of a different feel to Dark Souls though. I mean Dark Souls is amazing so it's not the end of the world , but yeah... I put up a metal version of the title screen theme yesterday, the soundtrack is also super cool.


----------



## wankerness

Choop said:


> I was thinking to do predominantly strength and use faith for utility stuff or potential weapon buffs. Have you come across any elemental weapon buffs yet in the game, like a version of flame weapon?


You mean spells or enchants? I found a couple of the former, I’ve found a few spell books that unlocked weapon buffs. Black blade and some kind of lightning blade iirc. I haven’t used either cause my weapon isn’t buffable I don’t think.

As for what the other guy replied with, there are enchants too, which are done with the ashes and are permanent. I have a lot of those, still haven’t found the lightning one but had been using a holy one to give my weapon faith scaling and split damage before I got this weapon that I can’t enchant.

I beat two more bosses that gave trophies all the castle in weeping peninsula- one in that manor i mentioned before that rains arrows on you from hundreds of yards, and the other in the corner of the lakes in what I thought was a regular cave but then turned into quite something.

Oh, and here’s a hilarious area I found. Look at the sheer amount of bloodstains!! This was another good example of a place you are going to need to separate the run and jump buttons, some of these jumps you overshoot if you run and others you undershoot. I died twice at the end of the chain and then just teleported out!!


----------



## LostTheTone

stevexc said:


> I don't know if I fully agree - I definitely had trouble with it initially, but once I levelled up some summons it was manageable if not trivial. The Lone Wolf summon is great for stuff like that. They distracted the boss and some of the adds while I cleaned them up, then focussed down the boss. I think they're trying to emphasize that using the summons isn't cheating, but a mechanic you're expected to use. It's not the greatest fight overall though.



I guess there is some truth to that, but summons have been a core part of the series since forever. You always had the choice to summon, if you wanted to, but everything was designed so that if you were utterly shit out of luck you could just tackle any boss alone and in hollow form. You could potentially get stranded like that, so the game had to respect that in its design. Now it feels like at least some bosses are designed so that you have to summon or the fight isn't really practical. And it doesn't help that this game has DS3 style weapons so you can't really become a damage bulldozer like you could in earlier games. Sure, if you are way overlevelled you can just blitz through them, but that isn't quite the same thing. Oh and it doesn't help that most summons are only there to be a distraction, and that a good number of bosses have built in attacks that will incidentally kill summons while they are trying to attack you. 

Going into a boss fight and summoning your hounds simply so they can cancel out the mob of random jerks so you can fight the boss is terrible design. That isn't a meaningful interaction because the player doesn't have a choice.


----------



## wankerness

The ash summons are infinite use items and clearly intended as a baseline mechanic, summons in other DS games are contingent on using limited consumables to get out of hollow form so it’s kind of something you aren’t supposed to just do every time. There are counterparts to regular DS summons and those usually aren’t worth using unless you’re struggling cause they buff the boss’s health - I’ve only seen them on like three or four bosses so far. You also don’t need them and you also will start getting better weapons if you search around and build properly. I’ve one shot every boss since Godrick, those two are a pretty huge brick wall to the rest of the game I think.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> The ash summons are infinite use items and clearly intended as a baseline mechanic, summons in other DS games are contingent on using limited consumables to get out of hollow form so it’s kind of something you aren’t supposed to just do every time. There are counterparts to regular DS summons and those usually aren’t worth using unless you’re struggling cause they buff the boss’s health - I’ve only seen them on like three or four bosses so far. You also don’t need them and you also will start getting better weapons if you search around and build properly. I’ve one shot every boss since Godrick, those two are a pretty huge brick wall to the rest of the game I think.



That's why I don't like them though.

First, if you're supposed to use them every time then why are they even an item? Why not just have them appear? Or why not just dispense with them and rebalance?

Second, the game is not well served by having loads of guys in the same fight. The skill is in timing and patience and finding openings. Having loads more stuff happening in the arena pulls it away from skill, making it more chaotic and (to my mind) less satisfying. Sometimes the boss aggros the summons and you just blitz them, but sometimes they ignore them. Sometimes your doggos munch all the mobs. But sometimes they don't and you get stun locked from behind by a goblin you couldn't see.

It isn't good design if you are just blitzing through so many bosses with no trouble.


----------



## wankerness

Well, I find it more fun to do that than struggle for hours. I guess if you don’t want to use the summons you can always intentionally make things harder for yourself to feel like other DS games.

The reason I’m blitzing through is mainly just my weapon since I found +7 upgrade materials for it and I’m progressing through +3 balanced areas now. I don’t use summons on every boss. But, I have when I’m confronted by something that looks scary and I don’t want to lose progress!

I guess I was wrong, I did die HARD on one boss when I tried to summon. Went in solo after that and it was much easier. Did get a gesture from summoning the dude though. The ash summons don’t help on everything, some mobs basically just aoe them all to death instantly.


----------



## Mathemagician

Caved and started looking up map fragment locations. I’ve ended up running all over the world and only found 2 on my own, so this will help a lot. As far as the “NPC ghosting model quest or just ending” that’s typical Fromsoft.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Caved and started looking up map fragment locations. I’ve ended up running all over the world and only found 2 on my own, so this will help a lot. As far as the “NPC ghosting model quest or just ending” that’s typical Fromsoft.


Map fragments are one thing you don’t need to look up - if you look at your map you can see a little obelisk looking thing on the edge of the fog, and that’s where the map item is.


----------



## stevexc

LostTheTone said:


> That's why I don't like them though.
> 
> First, if you're supposed to use them every time then why are they even an item? Why not just have them appear? Or why not just dispense with them and rebalance?
> 
> Second, the game is not well served by having loads of guys in the same fight. The skill is in timing and patience and finding openings. Having loads more stuff happening in the arena pulls it away from skill, making it more chaotic and (to my mind) less satisfying. Sometimes the boss aggros the summons and you just blitz them, but sometimes they ignore them. Sometimes your doggos munch all the mobs. But sometimes they don't and you get stun locked from behind by a goblin you couldn't see.
> 
> It isn't good design if you are just blitzing through so many bosses with no trouble.



It's not "an" item, though, there's a number of different ones that all behave differently, have different strengths, weaknesses, resistances, attacks, etc. "Having them appear" would defeat the purpose entirely - it's literally taking an aspect of customization away from you. You could make the same argument for weapon elements - why give you the option to choose between fire and ice or higher base damage when it can be automatically decided at the fight, or just remove the aspect altogether - the only thing that matters is how much damage your weapon does. 

And you're not "supposed" to use them, they're just one option. Like so many of the other systems in the game - magic, crafting, weapon types, ranged vs melee weapons, the various elements and statuses you can choose to use, skills, items - there's situations where the right one could give you an upper hand. You have the option to brute force your way through without, but series has always been about picking the tools that best suit the situation and the boss fight. You can play and probably beat the game as an unarmed Wretch, but you're going to have to play much, much more carefully to make up for eschewing all the other options you're given. I'll rephrase what I said earlier - it's not so much a mechanic you're expected to _use_ but a mechanic you're expected to _consider_.

I disagree that making fights more chaotic is a bad thing too. It's a trade-off. If you choose to summon with spirit ashes, all of a sudden you're not being focussed on exclusively and your DPS is effectively increased, at the cost of having more things to pay attention to and more variability. It's on you to decide whether that's worth it, and whether that's the playstyle you enjoy.

Sure, this fight in particular seems a little biased towards getting you to use Spirit Ashes, but bear in mind that it's a relatively early game minor dungeon, it's completely optional, and the reward for beating the dungeon... _is more Spirit Ashes_. It's early game content, and I'd argue that it's actually _good_ design to use early game content to give the player fairly clear situations to use the tools you've given them. This guy's a good one for Spirit Ashes, you've got the Tree Sentinel and Tibia Mariner for mounted combat, etc.

At the end of the day, though, it's your game and your enjoyment. As far as I've seen you're never forced to use any one mechanic in combat to finish the game, so if you don't enjoy playing that way... don't? Personally, I'm super, super bad at this game, so I'll take all the help I can get.


----------



## wankerness

Got some more fancy weapons I can’t use with my build, like a dual blades lightsaber looking thing that requires arcane investment and a legendary sword that’s int-based. Hopefully I find more legendary swords, this one I only got cause I have made a habit of following all the messages people leave even though plenty are trolling.

Hit two bosses I can’t beat without another probably 20 attempts, a screwed up laser-spewing bull on top of a volcano, and a greatly upgraded version of the tree sentinel that spams fireballs.


----------



## Mathemagician

I got killed by a bear in the overworld. Then went into a cave somewhere else and got killed by a bear. Wtf bro


----------



## wankerness

The bears are sons of bitches, I can’t kill them in the overworld, especially in Altus plateau. That one in the cave died fast enough I could handle it.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Well, I find it more fun to do that than struggle for hours. I guess if you don’t want to use the summons you can always intentionally make things harder for yourself to feel like other DS games.
> 
> The reason I’m blitzing through is mainly just my weapon since I found +7 upgrade materials for it and I’m progressing through +3 balanced areas now. I don’t use summons on every boss. But, I have when I’m confronted by something that looks scary and I don’t want to lose progress!
> 
> I guess I was wrong, I did die HARD on one boss when I tried to summon. Went in solo after that and it was much easier. Did get a gesture from summoning the dude though. The ash summons don’t help on everything, some mobs basically just aoe them all to death instantly.



Well yes, it is more fun in the short term to win than to not win. But the point of Souls games is that you have to learn the bosses and the mechanics and execute smartly and then you win. In general, bad Souslike games are ones where the levels take more effort to complete than the bosses. 

And as you say, you fire off the summons to help you out and keep you alive this time. But thats the opposite way that they used to work. It used to be that you summoned when you had died lots and needed a helping hand. But now the summons are unlimited use, and there isn't even an HP buff so there is literally no penalty for firing them off. 

I think what is annoying me most is that the summons are very feast or famine - They either make a fight trivial, or they make no difference. They don't give you an incremental advantage, there isn't some tweaked version of the boss to account for them. 

Which is a pity because that could have been a really cool way to use them - Bosses maybe use different weapons or attacks when fighting summons.


----------



## Mathemagician

I respect Fromsoft’s commitment to giants/golems that try to 360 no-scope me from across the planet.


----------



## stevexc

LostTheTone said:


> I think what is annoying me most is that the summons are very feast or famine - They either make a fight trivial, or they make no difference. They don't give you an incremental advantage, there isn't some tweaked version of the boss to account for them.



Where are you finding this to be the case? I haven't found that to be true at all, at least not in the majority of scenarios where I've used them. There's been a small handful of fights where I've dropped a summon and completely stomped the boss, but in all of those cases I've been overlevelled as well, plus they were minor inconsequential optional bosses.

Either way... just don't use them if you don't like them. You're not forced to as far as I can tell. It literally won't impact your enjoyment of the game to not use them, or whether or not someone else does.

Calling it "not good design" is just not correct, though, especially when you don't seem to understand how the mechanic works.


----------



## SamSam

I tend to use them if I'm struggling and find they are a good way to beat a boss down to 50% before they die. 

It's just an option to help out when you don't want the full on Dark souls experience.

Then again it was the same in the other games (I only begrudgingly used a summon once in ds3 for sister friede and then proceeded to one shot her).


----------



## wankerness

The summons matter less and less as you progress. Like, the last couple bosses I used a +6 summon and it died in under 10 seconds without doing anything other than preventing me from taking a first hit to the face that I could have dodged if I wasn't casting summon anyway. Even when heavily upgraded they don't necessarily last more than a couple seconds.

I beat my second "great rune" boss after Godrick (it's weird how they count or don't count, like, Ranalla was the end boss of a second major legacy dungeon but wasn't a great rune boss, but had a remembrance), he was a ridiculous gimmick boss that had an infuriating guaranteed oneshot move that is very, VERY hard to dodge for reasons that will become apparent quickly to anyone that fights him. I cheesed him in a very soulslike manner after discovering the dragon rot breath was SUPER EFFECTIVE.

I think I might have skipped the dungeon associated with him - I was on a quest that put up a teleporter that took me right to the area before him. Though maybe that legacy dungeon has next to nothing in it, not sure.

So yeah, I'm over 50 hours in and I think I'm less than halfway through in terms of actual progression. I just had a very, very, very stressful descent from the ground level of the map about 20 minutes downwards with no point of grace until you actually reach the bottom. There's some really weird stuff down there. Got two more achievement bosses down there, one of which was a total joke (all the comments in the room after I beat it were like "didn't expect weak foe") and the other of which gave off heavy Sekiro vibes despite not being anything like any Sekiro bosses, I guess just because of the music and look. Very cool stuff. So, that last one is the boss I have that the fewest PS5 users have done out of anything I've done so far - 4.5% apparently. There are a LOT of boss trophies left.

I went back to that hellish mine that you get teleported to early on, and tried to clear it for real - that boss is a goddam nightmare. Gave up pretty quickly since the run back was annoying. It's the same boss that killed me repeatedly in the overworld, only crammed in a tiny cave, it's REALLY hard. I'm going to wait till I'm overlevelled and go back to stomp him.

I also got an int-scaling Katana that I heard mentioned somewhere - looked it up and it's widely considered the best weapon in the game. I am contemplating respeccing cause I got multiple respec items recently.


----------



## Mathemagician

Very minor enemy spoilers:

So I beat Castle Morne and then went back and fought Magrit at lvl 30. In the interim I got chased by a fucking sleepy hollow MF into the woods where I found a well. And then…man this game is so fucking big. Like holy shit. I’m glad I’m playing it without guides/etc. it’s so big.


----------



## wankerness

Found a much, much more op ash in an underground area.


Spoiler



It’s called mimic tear and it’s a clone of you, with all your abilities/items.


 It eliminated the scaling problem with ashes on the last several bosses, I used it once and it trivialized a late game boss. I think I won’t use it again unless I’m desperate, the thing seemed like a “win button!” I did have it upgraded to +10 though.

I have been dying a hell of a lot on trash mobs, environmental hazards, etc but bosses mostly haven’t been too bad besides bullshit ones in tiny enclosed areas. Seems about par for the course with these games!

This game has the worst poison swamp in any of these games yet in the form of the


Spoiler



underground rot lake that gives you blood rot in about four seconds and has HUGE spaces between land masses as well as a giant boss in the middle.



That is one boss I did t even try!


----------



## /wrists

so is this game actually good?


----------



## wankerness

evade said:


> so is this game actually good?


Nope, stick to assassins creed


----------



## MFB

Man, I'm level 34 and Godrick still has no problem stomping me. My vigor is up to 22, so roughly 750HP but it still just feels like it's not enough. Is it just me or are the first two bosses really requiring that much immediate grinding?

Even with using wolves/jellyfish he manages to take them out all at once somehow, and Nepheli never stops attacking so she's pretty much dead by phase 2


----------



## CTID

so i think i'm getting relatively close to the end. at 69 hours right now (nice) and i have 5 great runes so far. really been loving the game but i will say it's the closest to being like Dark Souls 2 imo in regards to hitboxes being...questionable, and some of the encounters feeling straight up broken or unfair.

i have a personal rule for myself in that i've never summoned for any of the other Souls games, so i haven't for this. i know this WILL make the game more difficult for me, but i appreciate that challenge of me actually trying to overcome everything solo. that being said, Radahn felt like a completely unfair fight, no matter what, from what i saw of a friend's stream, but especially so solo. there were numerous times where i'd running from one of his charges only to be _pulled backwards_ to be hit by one of his strikes.

not to mention that from what i've been told, there's something like 86 bosses in this game, and tbh it feels like at least 60 of them are repeats or "hey, let's take 2 different encounters you've had to do in the past and combine them into a completely fucked encounter" and it can lead to some genuine frustration.

summons DO appear to be something they want you to use though, or at least spirit summons, so maybe this is all my fault and i'd just breeze through if i summoned and would have 0 or at least fewer complaints. there's a particular spirit summon you can get late in the game called mimic tear that more or less clones you with all of your abilities and a single flask heal that is, from what i've been told from a few friends that have used it, completely fucking broken.

idk who knows, overall 99% of the time i'm genuinely enjoying myself but when something does suck, it really stands out to me because of how good the rest of it is.


----------



## Empryrean

MFB said:


> Man, I'm level 34 and Godrick still has no problem stomping me. My vigor is up to 22, so roughly 750HP but it still just feels like it's not enough. Is it just me or are the first two bosses really requiring that much immediate grinding?
> 
> Even with using wolves/jellyfish he manages to take them out all at once somehow, and Nepheli never stops attacking so she's pretty much dead by phase 2


Maybe try to stagger with your wolves/jellyfish, let naphali tank him to phase 2 and then whip out the jelly/wolves? for myself personally I solod his first form and then put jelly out for phase 2 to take away some of his aggro while I jump heavy attacked him from behind/ran and blasted fireballs.




CTID said:


> so i think i'm getting relatively close to the end. at 69 hours right now (nice) and i have 5 great runes so far. really been loving the game but i will say it's the closest to being like Dark Souls 2 imo in regards to hitboxes being...questionable, and some of the encounters feeling straight up broken or unfair.
> 
> i have a personal rule for myself in that i've never summoned for any of the other Souls games, so i haven't for this. i know this WILL make the game more difficult for me, but i appreciate that challenge of me actually trying to overcome everything solo. that being said, Radahn felt like a completely unfair fight, no matter what, from what i saw of a friend's stream, but especially so solo. there were numerous times where i'd running from one of his charges only to be _pulled backwards_ to be hit by one of his strikes.


happy to see Radahn gave others a hard time too  
I hadn't used summons at all until I got to him cause I simply thought they were messages. I was able to get him to about 1/3 down and then I usually got gravity blasted to death, then I looked up a guide cause it was just so annoying and saw that summons are on his map, game changed completely. it sort of reminded me of Seige quests in monster hunter, busy work and able to kill you but not particularly engaging to actually play the game it is normally played. His moves, from what I can tell, all seem to track forward really well and unless you have some expert level rolling skills (which I do not) it's hard to keep focus locked on him to see if he's doing a forward tracking move or a big swipe which seems to be active for longer than my rolls last...


----------



## MFB

Took out Godrick finally, took 2 more levels to do it but I did. I also took out Ancestral Spirit at the Siofra River which earned me a new summon - Ancestral Warrior. Dude is OP as shit in common fights, he can switch between bow for long range, or he'll attack with an axe for melee. I meant to use him against Godrick and totally forgot.


----------



## MFB

Forgot I also finally went back and took out Tree Sentinel, and then pushed forward into Liurnia to discover that it ALSO had a Tibia Mariner who I proceeded to kill. His arena was a little bigger than the others, so I cheesed him using Torrent to catch up. If not he'd see me coming and peace out to the opposite side of the map.


----------



## wankerness

Empryrean said:


> Maybe try to stagger with your wolves/jellyfish, let naphali tank him to phase 2 and then whip out the jelly/wolves? for myself personally I solod his first form and then put jelly out for phase 2 to take away some of his aggro while I jump heavy attacked him from behind/ran and blasted fireballs.
> 
> 
> 
> happy to see Radahn gave others a hard time too
> I hadn't used summons at all until I got to him cause I simply thought they were messages. I was able to get him to about 1/3 down and then I usually got gravity blasted to death, then I looked up a guide cause it was just so annoying and saw that summons are on his map, game changed completely. it sort of reminded me of Seige quests in monster hunter, busy work and able to kill you but not particularly engaging to actually play the game it is normally played. His moves, from what I can tell, all seem to track forward really well and unless you have some expert level rolling skills (which I do not) it's hard to keep focus locked on him to see if he's doing a forward tracking move or a big swipe which seems to be active for longer than my rolls last...


Radahn’s very doable in first phase, I even fought him for a while melee without the horse. But phase two when he unpredictably shoots the four meteors at you and they’re an automatic instadeath? SCREW THAT! I poisoned him and hid behind a sand dune while the npcs did the last 5% of his health.


----------



## MFB

Trying to take down Flying Dragon Ahglee but I for the life of me can't get him all the way down. His flames have WAY more range than you would expect, and there's a ton of little obstacles to get caught on if you're not paying attention while the camera is locked on.

Luckily Ancestral Follower is does a number on his health, but hopefully soon I'll crack it


----------



## MFB

Got into the Academy, managed to find the boss chamber but this run is a bit shitty from the grace point. Haven't passed through yet to see what the boss is either.

Took out the invader at the Roundtable Hold, didn't see that coming given the location but apparently that area isn't like the main part of it. I also managed to talk with one of the NPC and he marked up my map with a beast man so we'll see what that's about.


----------



## Mathemagician

Bro I have been all over this castle including the sub basement of the basement. Where TF is Godrick the grafted?

Edit- found his punk ass. Apparently I had almost walked up to the grace point but turned around and went exploring instead. Go figure.


----------



## MFB

Well, I met Radogon this morning and uh, yowza. I need shit to negate this magic damage, STAT.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Well, I met Radogon this morning and uh, yowza. I need shit to negate this magic damage, STAT.


Huh? I didn’t recognize the name so I looked him up. Says he’s one of the final bosses and is in a zone I am nowhere close to unlocking?? Did you gain a hundred levels and burn through most of the game since beating Godrick??

I cleared out the shaded castle and the little assholes that spam magic exploding powder clouds are the hardest enemy in the game for me. I can not hit them for shit!

Started on volcano manor, it is interesting. Beat the first boss and a dragon in the basement that I had to ranged exploit. Thank god for “sniper spot” messages- dark souls classic right there!!


----------



## MFB

Sorry, apparently that's not his name but his title, the Red Wolf of Radogon or whatever at the Academy. I'm only 46 or something now and it feels like the game has finally leveled off.

I've almost got him beat, I can get his health down the last bit under his name, it's just bad timing of his bladed attack with my Greatsword combo.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Sorry, apparently that's not his name but his title, the Red Wolf of Radogon or whatever at the Academy. I'm only 46 or something now and it feels like the game has finally leveled off.
> 
> I've almost got him beat, I can get his health down the last bit under his name, it's just bad timing of his bladed attack with my Greatsword combo.


Yeah, he’s really fast and relentless, like Sif on speed. I only had an easy time cause I’d grinded enough upgrade materials that I took him out in like ten hits.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> Yeah, he’s really fast and relentless, like Sif on speed. I only had an easy time cause I’d grinded enough upgrade materials that I took him out in like ten hits.


I switched from my Greatsword to my Highland Axe and did some grinding to get it up to +7 (physical is 172) and ended up tanking him not long ago. Now if only I could get this dumb fuck Moongrum out of the way; his one shot parry is fucking cheap as shit.


----------



## MFB

Nevermind, after two more deaths I cheesed the FUCK out of him by luring him to the falling boulders and they killed him. I got a few hits in with my axe, but the rest was all from his shitty placement.


----------



## MFB

Triple post but whatever, after cheesing Moongrum I took the lift up to Rennala's arena; me and a coworker were talking about her fight the other day, but I didn't realize I was up to that boss already - so I blew my load in Phase 1, and then by Phase 2 I couldn't do shit; I already used my ashes, and half my flask charges since I thought it was a freebie boss like Witch of Hemwick, etc...


----------



## stevexc

no time to talk about elden ring

too busy playing elden ring

I spent ~30 hours in Limgrave. I've now spent 20 in Liuria. I love this game. I can't remember the last time I spent so much time fucking around in a game yet still feeling like I'm progressing. Raya Lucaria could be the final dungeon and I'd feel like I've gotten my money's worth just in terms of time spent, let alone enjoyment.

Sometimes, it just hits you right, you know?


----------



## CTID

stevexc said:


> Raya Lucaria could be the final dungeon and I'd feel like I've gotten my money's worth just in terms of time spent, let alone enjoyment.


agreed 100% but also imagine my surprise when i realized that's not even halfway lmao


----------



## Mathemagician

Time to figure out how to get into the magic academy. All the signs say “rump, try hole”. So going to start there.

Also to the comments about the size of the game. Fucking SAME. Like the game just keeps opening up and I’m like “oh I guess I’m exploring this area now. And it’s bigger than the first one.


----------



## Flappydoodle

LostTheTone said:


> Well yes, it is more fun in the short term to win than to not win. But the point of Souls games is that you have to learn the bosses and the mechanics and execute smartly and then you win. In general, bad Souslike games are ones where the levels take more effort to complete than the bosses.
> 
> And as you say, you fire off the summons to help you out and keep you alive this time. But thats the opposite way that they used to work. It used to be that you summoned when you had died lots and needed a helping hand. But now the summons are unlimited use, and there isn't even an HP buff so there is literally no penalty for firing them off.
> 
> I think what is annoying me most is that the summons are very feast or famine - They either make a fight trivial, or they make no difference. They don't give you an incremental advantage, there isn't some tweaked version of the boss to account for them.
> 
> Which is a pity because that could have been a really cool way to use them - Bosses maybe use different weapons or attacks when fighting summons.


This hasn't been my experience at all. The penalty is that some bosses are way harder WITH summons, since their attacks become much less predictable and reading their moves becomes very difficult. And there are lots of different summons with different properties. So there's a mechanic of having to use the right summon for the right boss, just as you would a weapon, armour or buffs. E.g. bosses who can be stun locked, the wolves will do a good job. But they're going to get wrecked by bosses who have big AOE attacks. So then you might want to bring in an archer summon. 

Along those lines, I have noticed that Elden Ring seems to have more diversity in bosses weaknesses than previous games. I found a crystal boss that takes basically zero damage from any sort of slashing weapon. Switch to hammer or mace and they got wrecked quick. I don't recall anything so clear as that from any of the previous games. Sure, Bloodborne had beasts with serrated weapons, or Holy damage for some, but it wasn't *that* different.


----------



## stevexc

CTID said:


> agreed 100% but also imagine my surprise when i realized that's not even halfway lmao


Haha I already knew that zone wasn't anywhere near the end, but earlier in Limgrave I had been teleported what seemed super far north - near the top of an elevator by a miniboss, if you know the place - and assumed that _that_ area was towards the farthest north end of the map.

I was a little surprised yesterday when I noticed that the Grace I found there was within spitting distance of where I was exploring in the northern part of Liuria... There's at _least _a third of the map north of that I'm sure. I mean, I've seen the full map, but the scale just doesn't come across until you're actively uncovering it.


----------



## MFB

Got Renalla (or Rennala?) down to half health, seems like the better option is to save my summon for later on the fight when she breaks out hers. It's tough to figure out the range on some of them, plus it distracts you from her and her projectiles, she's trickier than I expected.

Also, it'd be nice if for once I remembered you don't have to actually USE the point of grace to fast travel to another one like a bonfire.


----------



## wankerness

Those crystal bosses were a huge pita if you were like me and had no strike damage, especially the duo. They were even near-immune to magic! You had to beat them down till their posture broke, at which point they started taking normal damage. But that was not easy, especially with two of them beating on you.


----------



## LostTheTone

Flappydoodle said:


> This hasn't been my experience at all. The penalty is that some bosses are way harder WITH summons, since their attacks become much less predictable and reading their moves becomes very difficult. And there are lots of different summons with different properties. So there's a mechanic of having to use the right summon for the right boss, just as you would a weapon, armour or buffs. E.g. bosses who can be stun locked, the wolves will do a good job. But they're going to get wrecked by bosses who have big AOE attacks. So then you might want to bring in an archer summon.
> 
> Along those lines, I have noticed that Elden Ring seems to have more diversity in bosses weaknesses than previous games. I found a crystal boss that takes basically zero damage from any sort of slashing weapon. Switch to hammer or mace and they got wrecked quick. I don't recall anything so clear as that from any of the previous games. Sure, Bloodborne had beasts with serrated weapons, or Holy damage for some, but it wasn't *that* different.



It's always been the case that most bosses get radically less predictable if you summon though. Because the game engine really doesn't handle switching aggro very well. Enemies always fight like whoever they are targeting is the only person, then they randomly switch. 

I do somewhat agree about bosses having more varied strengths and weakneeses. I think it comes from the weapons being much flatter than before, and the ashes are what specialise them. Its much easier to move between weapons, so they don't feel so bad by making you need to switch.

I still am a bit disappointed that the weapons are so very DS3 though. I have a Claymore +3, a Zweihander +5, a Greatsword and a unique boss ultra GS and they all do almost exactly the same damage. The claymore is the best by miles, because it is significantly faster to swing and does the same damage. Maybe I just never figured it out is DS3, but it does feel like the choice of weapon doesn't really matter. And would it have killed them to let you buy low level smithing stones from the start?


----------



## LostTheTone

MFB said:


> Also, it'd be nice if for once I remembered you don't have to actually USE the point of grace to fast travel to another one like a bonfire.



Yeah, I'm interested in why they went with this.

I don't hate it or anything, but it does change some stuff. It's not like they've been stingey with grace points, there's loads of them around, but you don't have to actually get between them so much. If you're farming souls, you can just run around then teleport back, you don't have to learn the levels so much.


----------



## CTID

stevexc said:


> Haha I already knew that zone wasn't anywhere near the end, but earlier in Limgrave I had been teleported what seemed super far north - near the top of an elevator by a miniboss, if you know the place - and assumed that _that_ area was towards the farthest north end of the map.


Sounds like Divine Bridge and it's near something else I wasn't expecting but was cool to discover. I finally uncovered the entire map yesterday and the scale is immense, though there are large areas of impassable mountains


LostTheTone said:


> I still am a bit disappointed that the weapons are so very DS3 though. I have a Claymore +3, a Zweihander +5, a Greatsword and a unique boss ultra GS and they all do almost exactly the same damage. The claymore is the best by miles, because it is significantly faster to swing and does the same damage. Maybe I just never figured it out is DS3, but it does feel like the choice of weapon doesn't really matter. And would it have killed them to let you buy low level smithing stones from the start?


It definitely feels exactly like DS3, and FWIW the difference is that claymore is a regular greatsword, whereas Zweihander, Greatsword, and the boss UGS are all ultra greatswords, and From has always generally shared movesets between weapon types (excluding uniques and boss weapons, and even then not always) so they're all going to hit significantly slower, though my friend who has a +25 Greatsword is doing 700-1000+ per hit depending on what type of hit vs. my Claymore which is looking like it'll max out at 350-400-ish damage by +25.

as far as smithing stones i get what you mean because they feel so rare at the beginning and it seems to discourage trying multiple types of weapons since you don't want to drop damage dealt significantly to try something new, feels like they could've either started with it OR given it more obviously and easier. fwiw you can unlock every level smithing stone except the unique one to go from +24-25


----------



## LostTheTone

CTID said:


> It definitely feels exactly like DS3, and FWIW the difference is that claymore is a regular greatsword, whereas Zweihander, Greatsword, and the boss UGS are all ultra greatswords, and From has always generally shared movesets between weapon types (excluding uniques and boss weapons, and even then not always) so they're all going to hit significantly slower, though my friend who has a +25 Greatsword is doing 700-1000+ per hit depending on what type of hit vs. my Claymore which is looking like it'll max out at 350-400-ish damage by +25.
> 
> as far as smithing stones i get what you mean because they feel so rare at the beginning and it seems to discourage trying multiple types of weapons since you don't want to drop damage dealt significantly to try something new, feels like they could've either started with it OR given it more obviously and easier. fwiw you can unlock every level smithing stone except the unique one to go from +24-25



I guess we'll see as we keep going, but I'm not going to upgrade the zweihander any more. 

While the movesets were different in DS1 and DS2, there was a lot bigger difference in terms of stats and the kinds of people who'd want to use them. Claymore is a quality, scaling weapon that is great throughout the whole game. Zweihander is one that you just take for it's base damage, range and knockdown ability really early in the game. If you invest into it you can do fun things (like poise breaking Smogh in one R2) but it runs out of balls not too long after. 

In Elden Ring, Zweihander has 141 base damage, with D/D scaling. Claymore has 138 with D/D scaling. Maybe at +25 the difference is more obvious, but it just feels... Bleh.

And as you say... There is a bit of a famine on the smithing stones early on, so it is harder to switch weapons even after a little investment. That just makes it feel even worse that (for example) the Lordsworn's Greatsword is almost identical to the Claymore in terms of stats. I should have just upgraded that sword instead of using the Claymore at all, but Claymore has always been good, so I switched and now I have a bunch of swords that are slightly upgraded but nothing stands out.


----------



## wankerness

Something that is very different about this game to DS3 is that it’s a LOT easier to upgrade boss/unique weapons than basic boring weapons. Like, in 80 hours, I still don’t have my catalyst past +15, and that’s ONE weapon, while I have FOUR boss weapons to +8 (that’s equivalently higher than +15) and one at +9.

There are a lot of unique weapons. I have about thirty that upgrade with somber stones instead of smithing stones. The big tuning problem is it’s one somber stone per level, while you need like 12 of every level of smithing stone, and they only are found about twice as often as somber ones.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Something that is very different about this game to DS3 is that it’s a LOT easier to upgrade boss/unique weapons than basic boring weapons. Like, in 80 hours, I still don’t have my catalyst past +15, and that’s ONE weapon, while I have FOUR boss weapons to +8 (that’s equivalently higher than +15) and one at +9.
> 
> There are a lot of unique weapons. I have about thirty that upgrade with somber stones instead of smithing stones. The big tuning problem is it’s one somber stone per level, while you need like 12 of every level of smithing stone, and they only are found about twice as often as somber ones.



Good point - I hadn't even looked at boss weapons, because the ones that normally drop are typically dreadful in Souls games. 

Are there actually tail cut weapons in this game at all? I spent FOREVER trying to get Margit's tail to come off because it seems so obvious that it would, but it wouldn't come off and I feel sad.


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> Good point - I hadn't even looked at boss weapons, because the ones that normally drop are typically dreadful in Souls games.
> 
> Are there actually tail cut weapons in this game at all? I spent FOREVER trying to get Margit's tail to come off because it seems so obvious that it would, but it wouldn't come off and I feel sad.


Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't tried. That was only a thing in DS1 unless you count the Rotten's arms in 2, so I'd be surprised if they reintroduced it here.

The really good unique weapons I've found have mostly been in chests, from small dungeons, or drops off of like, invader kinds of NPCs. Moonveil is widely considered the best weapon in the game and that's from one of the little dungeons. The scythe I've been using this whole game almost came from a chest in a ruins, I think. And then the big OP farming legendary weapon that I have but haven't tried using yet (it requires 24 int and 24 faith, currently I'm sitting at 7 int) is from a chest in the second legacy dungeon WAYYYY out of the way.

Oh, and one invader dropped


Spoiler



the pizza cutter weapon from Bloodborne! I was delighted when he showed up with that thing. I love that weapon. I haven't tried it here. I forget what it's called here, Ginza's Wheel or something. But it's just the 2H form of the pizza cutter from bloodborne, seems like the same moveset.



Despite none of the "boss soul" weapons being useful to me yet, I just finally killed the great rune boss that drops the go-to endgame faith build weapon, Blasphemous Blade, so I'm about to cash that in once I can find a turtle that will let me duplicate it. I didn't know till today that only the ones with bells let you duplicate the BIG boss souls, the non-bell ones only let you duplicate "minor" remembrances like the big elk spirit or the cosmic laser centipede.

Last night I realized that I was going to get locked out of all the quests in Volcano Hold if I killed the boss before doing them, so I had to pause before that boss to go on a LONG, LONG detour and completely clear out the higher-level Leyendell Capital legacy dungeon, which is a truly miserable area, gated by a truly miserable boss in the form of a firebreathing version of the horseback knight boss. It's monstrously large and full of really, really obnoxious enemies. Definitely my least favorite legacy dungeon yet, though it sure is impressive in the monstrous size of everything. Then after that you go through a hellish fog area with bosses that leap out at you from the fog even though you have about 15 feet of visibility, so I ran through that as fast as possible and then got to Mountaintop of the Giants, where I ran around and got the map halves and finished the Volcano Manor bounty quest, and then I went back there and did the final boss of Volcano Hold. I really liked it, except at the end when I got smashed into the corner by the gigantic boss and couldn't see anything and couldn't move and just spammed R1 and prayed and somehow managed to eek out a win. It's


Spoiler



VERY much like the Yhorm or Storm King bosses, but the weapon just lets you spam the wind-beams instead of having to charge them up so the fight is a lot more fluid. Obviously they're a lot weaker than the hits in those two fights, for balance. But, yeah, fun boss. Though I LOL'd at the cutscene into phase 2.



Now I'm going to get that Blasphemous Blade and upgrade it to +9 and try that out, hopefully it's as good as its rep. If not I might have to switch to an int build and try this moonveil thing, or do a 24 int/24 faith build to try out the AOE sword.

Oh, and there's INVISIBLE BRIDGE BULLSHIT in Mountaintop of the Giants. I HATE that part of DS1 so, so much. I used all 20 of my rainbow stones to get there, since there's a huge dearth of messages pointing it out yet.

The message leaving function is actually really helpful. I have only left a couple, but I'm very regularly getting healed because of people rating my messages, it's a nice passive bonus. I guess I never played DS1-3 while they were current and thus never had a message rated while I was playing before - I assume you got healed there, too.

My least favorite two things in this game so far are both platforming sections in the overworld in Caelid -


Spoiler



one to get to the painting location, and the other to get to the top of the divine tower. I'm hoping there aren't too many more things like this. Those two things were far worse than that mine I posted pictures of before, or the keystone area with floating cages in Volcano Hold.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> Not that I'm aware of, but I haven't tried. That was only a thing in DS1 unless you count the Rotten's arms in 2, so I'd be surprised if they reintroduced it here.



I am now a sad panda.


----------



## Mathemagician

I need to find an int scaling weapon that doesn’t require much beyond my base astrologer STR/Dex. I have Rogier’s rapier, and picked up a Carian Sword/(longsword?) but can’t use either due to like 8 str and 12 Dex. But I got that juicy 38 int THO!!! Lol. I’m still using a +0 rapier because I just don’t smack stuff very much and when I do it’s via Carian Slicer.


----------



## Choop

mmm gonna be looking to change my weapon. I'm using the Greatsword right now, but I was checking on some tier lists and it just comes out to being "ok" overall. Also I'm tired of dying because I'm stuck in an intensely long recovery window lol. It's nice when you can stagger enemies, but when you can't, man, get ready to eat some counter attack damage.


----------



## MFB

Choop said:


> mmm gonna be looking to change my weapon. I'm using the Greatsword right now, but I was checking on some tier lists and it just comes out to being "ok" overall. Also I'm tired of dying because I'm stuck in an intensely long recovery window lol. It's nice when you can stagger enemies, but when you can't, man, get ready to eat some counter attack damage.


Is that the Lordsworn Great Sword?

I just ditched it recently during the Red Wolf fight, it just took too long to attack with him and leveled up my Highland Axe to +8 for quick combos. It's doing ~185 damage base, but unfortunately the scaling isn't great as like EVERY other weapon I've found - it's a D for scaling. It's working well for the Renalla fight too, I just need to up my magic defense against her as she does a lot.


----------



## LostTheTone

Choop said:


> mmm gonna be looking to change my weapon. I'm using the Greatsword right now, but I was checking on some tier lists and it just comes out to being "ok" overall. Also I'm tired of dying because I'm stuck in an intensely long recovery window lol. It's nice when you can stagger enemies, but when you can't, man, get ready to eat some counter attack damage.


It feels to me like enemy poise is quite a bit higher - You can somewhat count on interupting normal enemy attacks, and occasional proper staggers, but on bosses they basically always ignore you hitting them even with a proper big stick. The only way I've ever staggered a boss was with summons all smacking him too.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I need to find an int scaling weapon that doesn’t require much beyond my base astrologer STR/Dex. I have Rogier’s rapier, and picked up a Carian Sword/(longsword?) but can’t use either due to like 8 str and 12 Dex. But I got that juicy 38 int THO!!! Lol. I’m still using a +0 rapier because I just don’t smack stuff very much and when I do it’s via Carian Slicer.


MOONVEIL. Int Katana. Requires 12 str, 18 dex, 23 int, has bleed on it, has B scaling with int and dex. It's so good that it might get nerfed at some point since it seems to be about the most popular weapon in the game. It's from some mini-dungeon or another.

This game has a LOT of int/melee weapons. I have like 12 of them, and scads of caster staffs. And only like 4 faith melee weapons and only 3 faith catalysts, none of which are worth using besides the starting one


----------



## Mathemagician

Guess I have to go hunting then. Man I hope it doesn’t get nerfed. I never got to use faith builds in DS2 because they nerfed the one good faith attack (lobbing lightning bolts like Zeus) to be low-use AND cut the damage way down.

I like being an OP wizard. It’s PVE, so IDC.


----------



## wankerness

There are a lot of overpowered int spells, and unlike other games it seems like the scaling keeps right on trucking well past 40. I have one spell that requires 70 int!

One thing I haven't mentioned in this thread, and maybe everyone else already discovered it, but the lantern item is a godsend. I bought it off some random merchant at the beginning of the game and I've been using it a whole lot in some caves and even some legacy dungeon and overworld areas. It's SO much better than the garbage lantern in DS1 or the torches in DS2/3 that you had to equip in your shield slot for them to work. You just turn it on from your inventory screen and you're set for the dungeon, with no tradeoffs required! Amazing. And it doesn't even cost mana like the light spells in the DS games!


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah the lantern is a little “gimme” that’s so cheap it’s easy to overlook. Little details like that are awesome to me. I can’t remember which prior DS game/s had it but it was helpful there too. Although as a Wizurd just throwing up the torch on my left and the staff on my right usually leaves me plenty of time to kill stuff before it gets to me.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Yeah the lantern is a little “gimme” that’s so cheap it’s easy to overlook. Little details like that are awesome to me. I can’t remember which prior DS game/s had it but it was helpful there too. Although as a Wizurd just throwing up the torch on my left and the staff on my right usually leaves me plenty of time to kill stuff before it gets to me.


The previous DS games didn't have a lantern, you had a spell called "cast light" or something which made a light ball float behind you, or you were stuck using a light item in your offhand (a terrible mechanic which was taken to extremes in the soulsborne knockoff Ashen, where you could not use 2H weapons in dungeons period). Oh, and DS1 had that sunlight maggot helm which worked like a mining cap which was nice. I always make sure to get that before going to Tomb of the Giants. In ds2 I'm stuck using a lot of flame butterflies and the standard torch - I like the implementation in that game cause the darkest levels have braziers everywhere that you can light to make the level progressively brighter. DS3 I really can't even remember a single section where I needed light. I think the torch was only useful for burning off maggots that got on you.

So yeah, the lantern in elden ring is my favorite light source implementation this side of RE games where you have a flashlight mounted to your gun.

I happened upon my new least favorite dungeon in Elden Ring - this one is full of giant stone chariots with whirly blades that rush back and forth and instantly kill you. It's just a big series of deathtraps with those things totally blocking the corridor and you having to perfectly time dodges into cover. And then when that's over, you have to do one of the ol' rafter falling sections. And if you screw that up, you have to go through the entire stone statue gauntlet again!!!! I'm saving this one for endgame...


----------



## Mathemagician

….Maybe it was Bloodborne?


----------



## Choop

MFB said:


> Is that the Lordsworn Great Sword?
> 
> I just ditched it recently during the Red Wolf fight, it just took too long to attack with him and leveled up my Highland Axe to +8 for quick combos. It's doing ~185 damage base, but unfortunately the scaling isn't great as like EVERY other weapon I've found - it's a D for scaling. It's working well for the Renalla fight too, I just need to up my magic defense against her as she does a lot.



Oh nah it's just plainly called "Greatsword" but it's a misnomer, because it's really a colossal sword. Looks like the Guts sword from Berserk! I was using the Lordsworn Greatsword before though, and I liked it a lot for the weight it is.


----------



## wankerness

Limped through some more zones, got stomped a LOT. Basically every enemy takes about 10 hits to kill and can 2-3 shot me in seconds in these later zones. Starting to think I might need to level endurance and start wearing some heavier armor than my starting robes!! Also, I only have 35 vit. But, I think these endgame zones are just laughably overtuned. I think I might need to do some of that aoe grinding for a while in Morghyl to get up to something more like 100-150 before continuing, cause the amount of dying involved getting anywhere is stupid. When a swarm of rats and super fast hooded giants that can do a gigantic aoe attack that instantly kills you are what you’re contending with, things are not pretty.

I fought another boss that killed me as much as Godrick! He was an optional guy with two knight adds in a castle on the mountaintop of giants. I died over and over until I tried out the weapon art on the blasphemous blade, which does a very long-range aoe beam for over a thousand damage. Took out both adds in seconds and the fight became easy!! 

Try out weapon arts, is the moral of the story. I’d occasionally used the one on my jellyfish shield that gives an attack buff, but as I was almost never 2h my weapons I never really messed with them. Since discovering this, I’ve used it to take out a few enemies I had no chance against in a “fair fight.” 

Finally got my blasphemous blade up to +10, and still have my catalyst stuck at like 18. The lack of smithing stones is just becoming a joke. I need to find like 8 more +8 and 8 more +9s before I can use the titanite slab equivalent I already have!!


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> There are a lot of overpowered int spells, and unlike other games it seems like the scaling keeps right on trucking well past 40. I have one spell that requires 70 int!
> 
> One thing I haven't mentioned in this thread, and maybe everyone else already discovered it, but the lantern item is a godsend. I bought it off some random merchant at the beginning of the game and I've been using it a whole lot in some caves and even some legacy dungeon and overworld areas. It's SO much better than the garbage lantern in DS1 or the torches in DS2/3 that you had to equip in your shield slot for them to work. You just turn it on from your inventory screen and you're set for the dungeon, with no tradeoffs required! Amazing. And it doesn't even cost mana like the light spells in the DS games!



100% agree about the belt lantern - I think that in DS1 there's only one place where you need a lantern, so it's less of a worry, although I agree its crappy you had to give up your shield. In ER you are always popping in and out of caves and the light is a big deal.

It also helps that ER is open world and there are lots of light sources, including a much improved flaming torch compared to DS2. The lantern isn't just handed to you, you have to find it and then actually buy it and use it.


----------



## Mathemagician

Killed a dragon by flinging rocks from a high pillar. Then promptly got stomped by some crystal soldiers. Every time I think I’m improving, lol.


----------



## cwhitey2

What level are you guys fighting Margit at?


----------



## Naxxpipe

Fought him at lvl 29 with Rogier and Jellyfish-bro. I found it quite easy at that point. Killed him on the 2nd try as I rolled over the edge on the 1st try after getting him to 20% while not being hit.


----------



## cwhitey2

Naxxpipe said:


> Fought him at lvl 29 with Rogier and Jellyfish-bro. I found it quite easy at that point. Killed him on the 2nd try as I rolled over the edge on the 1st try after getting him to 20% while not being hit.


Dang...Im level 33 or 34, with upgraded weapon to +2 or 3 and can't beat him with the help from the NPC and wolves  wtf am I doing wrong? Do I _need _to use the jellyfish?


----------



## narad

cwhitey2 said:


> What level are you guys fighting Margit at?



22. Wolf bros+3 did most of the finishing work. I learned the patterns and got him down to the phase where he pulls out the hammer, which I think is doable for anyone who can fast roll and takes the time to study the moves -- I had fought him so many times I was starting to get this part of his routine down flawlessly. Hammer time was a different story. Called out the wolves to take most of the aggro, got in some cheap mostly-safe shots where I could, but yea, I think the wolves literally took 1/3 of his health.


----------



## profwoot

So is the story any good?

I fear I'm reaching an age when games aren't holding my attention very well and had wondered if trying something that requires full attention like Elden Ring would be good, but I tend to get cranky when 99% of games have such lame writing (RDR2 might be my all-time favorite game, for reference. Well except for KSP. And maybe Skyrim).


----------



## Tree

cwhitey2 said:


> What level are you guys fighting Margit at?



I beat him at 17 solo, no ashes, no summon before I finally realized that the castle was probably not the first intended area 
He's a definitely a tough first "real" boss.

As always, just be patient. Don't get greedy, and if you can only get a single R1 in, then do just that.


----------



## cwhitey2

Tree said:


> I beat him at 17 solo, no ashes, no summon before I finally realized that the castle was probably not the first intended area
> He's a definitely a tough first "real" boss.
> 
> As always, just be patient. Don't get greedy, and if you can only get a single R1 in, then do just that.


Damn... 

I think I need to level up my wolves they do not have any upgrades.

And to be fare, I only attempted him twice. I could get him to the 2nd phase and then he just wrecks me


----------



## wankerness

profwoot said:


> So is the story any good?
> 
> I fear I'm reaching an age when games aren't holding my attention very well and had wondered if trying something that requires full attention like Elden Ring would be good, but I tend to get cranky when 99% of games have such lame writing (RDR2 might be my all-time favorite game, for reference. Well except for KSP. And maybe Skyrim).


Have you ever played a Dark Souls game? The writing is like that. If you're here for lots of cutscenes and voiceacting, you're going to be confused and annoyed. The plot is probably decent as far as fantasy stuff goes but I barely am catching any of it and I'm over 70 hours in. I'm not reading all the item descriptions or memorizing all the snippets of weirdness you get from various NPCs and boss cutscenes to tie it all together. I'll watch a youtube lore summary someday.

These games are probably better for holding your attention cause they DON'T waste all your time with tons and tons of voiceacting and plot that you don't care about (cough HORIZON FORBIDDEN WEST cough). It's mostly just really pure gameplay.


----------



## wankerness

cwhitey2 said:


> Damn...
> 
> I think I need to level up my wolves they do not have any upgrades.
> 
> And to be fare, I only attempted him twice. I could get him to the 2nd phase and then he just wrecks me


17 is low, unless you're a super-optimized build like pure str/vit. If you're more of a hybrid or caster build I'd recommend more like 25 or 30. He's very nasty. Partly because of the comical amount of delay on his attacks making roll timings difficult.


----------



## profwoot

wankerness said:


> Have you ever played a Dark Souls game? The writing is like that. If you're here for lots of cutscenes and voiceacting, you're going to be confused and annoyed. The plot is probably decent as far as fantasy stuff goes but I barely am catching any of it and I'm over 70 hours in. I'm not reading all the item descriptions or memorizing all the snippets of weirdness you get from various NPCs and boss cutscenes to tie it all together. I'll watch a youtube lore summary someday.
> 
> These games are probably better for holding your attention cause they DON'T waste all your time with tons and tons of voiceacting and plot that you don't care about (cough HORIZON FORBIDDEN WEST cough). It's mostly just really pure gameplay.


Heh I suppose that's another way of solving the problem. Just a bit surprised they got GRRM on board if the plot is minimal. 

I haven't played any souls games. Well I guess I did load up DS3 one time, immediately met a guy with a giant sword who offed me instantly and decided to do something else. I meant to get back to it but never did.


----------



## wankerness

profwoot said:


> Heh I suppose that's another way of solving the problem. Just a bit surprised they got GRRM on board if the plot is minimal.
> 
> I haven't played any souls games. Well I guess I did load up DS3 one time, immediately met a guy with a giant sword who offed me instantly and decided to do something else. I meant to get back to it but never did.


If getting killed in a videogame makes you quit, you DEFINITELY should not play this. Even as a seasoned Souls veteran with hundreds of deaths under my belt, I very nearly ragequit yesterday (after losing 90,000 runes from platforming shenanigans right after killing a world boss).


----------



## Mathemagician

Elden Ring is kind of like a Zelda game. Big world to explore. Lots of dungeons. Cool gear and equipment. No idea wtf is happening usually.


----------



## Tree

cwhitey2 said:


> Damn...
> 
> I think I need to level up my wolves they do not have any upgrades.
> 
> And to be fare, I only attempted him twice. I could get him to the 2nd phase and then he just wrecks me


I should have also mentioned I play the *shit* out of these games 

I’ve done SL1/BL4 runs in them all and various other challenge runs, so I’m not trying to flex and tell you you should be able to do it. I was trying to say I managed to get him after like 5-6 tries, got through half the castle and realized once I kept getting upgrades for +6 weapons while only having a +2 or 3 at the time that it finally clicked; this was not the intended route for the level I was at. Don’t be afraid to level you, your weapons or ashes more. Everyone has a different experience and there’s no right or wrong way to play as long as you’re enjoying it. 

All that said, my advice still applies. Patience goes a long way in these games PVE.


----------



## cwhitey2

Tree said:


> I should have also mentioned I play the *shit* out of these games
> 
> I’ve done SL1/BL4 runs in them all and various other challenge runs, so I’m not trying to flex and tell you you should be able to do it. I was trying to say I managed to get him after like 5-6 tries, got through half the castle and realized once I kept getting upgrades for +6 weapons while only having a +2 or 3 at the time that it finally clicked; this was not the intended route for the level I was at. Don’t be afraid to level you, your weapons or ashes more. Everyone has a different experience and there’s no right or wrong way to play as long as you’re enjoying it.
> 
> All that said, my advice still applies. Patience goes a long way in these games PVE.


Sound's like I'm being to impatient and need to lvl up my ashes and weapons more. I'm new to the DS series so that may have something to do with it as well.


----------



## Mathemagician

cwhitey2 said:


> Sound's like I'm being to impatient and need to lvl up my ashes and weapons more. I'm new to the DS series so that may have something to do with it as well.



To be clear, Vigor (HP) is your difficulty slider. The more HP you have the more hits you can take/mistakes you can make. 20 is essentially the minimum for “Hard enough for series fans” through most of the game.

30 Vigor is “Hard for new players, honestly just keep adding some more vigor if you’re getting smoked”

Beyond that is seasoning to taste. Lost of first time players will end up with like 40-50 vigor on their first playthrough. Just have fun with it. 

For melee builds more stamina = more dodging & staying alive longer. It’s important for mage builds too, but for new players don’t forgo just being able to roll around.

I was around Lvl30 when I beat godric with like 15 Vigor. But hella Int/damage.


----------



## wankerness

Endurance seems a LOT less important this game than previous ones. I have been using BIG weapons and didn't level endurance past 10 until about level 80. Never felt gated by stamina the way I did in the DS games. I'm only leveling it now to be able to equip heavier armor.


----------



## cwhitey2

@Mathemagician A lot of what you said make sense. My Vigor is lvl 17, so that could certainly be one of the reasons I suck haha

I think I'm making my character to rounded and not focused enough on a certain stat.


----------



## wankerness

cwhitey2 said:


> @Mathemagician A lot of what you said make sense. My Vigor is lvl 17, so that could certainly be one of the reasons I suck haha
> 
> I think I'm making my character to rounded and not focused enough on a certain stat.


It's not bad to have a rounded character, but it means you won't be effective for a much longer time - early game will be much harder. My build was trash until I was about level 50 cause I had to get too many stats up before things started to gel. If you're just doing a str or dex build it's very simple, just just put points into your main damage stat and vigor and you're going to do some damage and have enough health to not get squished like a bug by everything.


----------



## LostTheTone

cwhitey2 said:


> What level are you guys fighting Margit at?



Margit is a proper bastard, especially for a melee only character. He is the toughest boss I've fought so far, by quite a long way. You do need to get some damage, so go find a good weapon, but otherwise it's just the job of learning how to dodge him.

Personally, I find the best way to fight him is to crowd up on him and push towards his right side (from your perspective). That mostly means he doesn't do his very long combo, but you still need to settle in for the long haul.


----------



## cwhitey2

Ok, thanks guys.

I'm gonna grind a little and try him again tonight.


----------



## Mathemagician

@cwhitey2 One last note skeleton, watch your equip-load. It may not be obvious so I wanted to mention it to be sure. You should try to stay at medium or below. Because it allows you to roll much faster and you get more frames of invincibility during your rolls the lighter your load. Heavy makes you a rock. Doubt it’s an issue but this game hides everything, lol.


----------



## stevexc

cwhitey2 said:


> What level are you guys fighting Margit at?



I killed him at 25ish with the jellyfish and a... +3 Lordsworn's Heavy Greatsword I think, after many attempts. Took a minute for everything to start clicking in a way that the previous DS games never quite did. I wouldn't say you _need _the Spirit Ash summons, but they don't hurt. Some people don't like them, but they're not in the game for you to not use.


profwoot said:


> Heh I suppose that's another way of solving the problem. Just a bit surprised they got GRRM on board if the plot is minimal.
> 
> I haven't played any souls games. Well I guess I did load up DS3 one time, immediately met a guy with a giant sword who offed me instantly and decided to do something else. I meant to get back to it but never did.


I dunno if I'd say the plot is _minimal_ but it's subtly told. It's also a little different than most games - you're not just controlling a character and observing as they go through the plot, the plot is your actual actions in game... if that makes sense. It's even less a movie than most games and more emergent.

That said, GRRM's role wasn't really in terms of plot but moreso worldbuilding. If you've ever played D&D or anything similar, he essentially wrote a source book or a setting book and Miyazaki took it from there. It's still told super subtly though, as is Dark Souls tradition, just a little less so this time. it's largely environmental storytelling or flavour text.


----------



## Tree

Mathemagician said:


> @cwhitey2 One last note skeleton, watch your equip-load. It may not be obvious so I wanted to mention it to be sure. You should try to stay at medium or below. Because it allows you to roll much faster and you get more frames of invincibility during your rolls the lighter your load. Heavy makes you a rock. Doubt it’s an issue but this game hides everything, lol.



Oh yeah, that’s a good point. I took all my armor off except for the chest piece and gloves so I could fast roll when I finally got Margit down.


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> Margit is a proper bastard, especially for a melee only character. He is the toughest boss I've fought so far, by quite a long way. You do need to get some damage, so go find a good weapon, but otherwise it's just the job of learning how to dodge him.
> 
> Personally, I find the best way to fight him is to crowd up on him and push towards his right side (from your perspective). That mostly means he doesn't do his very long combo, but you still need to settle in for the long haul.


I found Margit and especially Godrick to be more of a bastard for casters since they can't be staggered/crit with spells and you can't hit Godrick's arm for extra damage, either. Caster's easier later on when you have upgraded ashes that can legitimately tank and when you have enough flasks that you don't go out of focus long before the boss dies. Margit and Godrick both do too much damage to the NPC summon to take them out with spells alone unless you're borderline overlevelled (~30-40). Which is what I had to be to beat Godrick as a caster!!


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> I found Margit and especially Godrick to be more of a bastard for casters since they can't be staggered/crit with spells and you can't hit Godrick's arm for extra damage, either. Caster's easier later on when you have upgraded ashes that can legitimately tank and when you have enough flasks that you don't go out of focus long before the boss dies. Margit and Godrick both do too much damage to the NPC summon to take them out with spells alone unless you're borderline overlevelled (~30-40). Which is what I had to be to beat Godrick as a caster!!



Thats potentially true, I haven't fought them as a caster 

But yeah, they are both harsh against ash summons. I don't mind it so much for Margit, because he is supposed to be kinda nails and gates the early game. But Godrick isn't actually that tough, he just has a bunch of 360 attacks that will definitely wipe out your squad of skellies/wolves/demi-humans.


----------



## Mathemagician

So i one-shot the wolf boss in Raya in one go. But that little knight after the obvious location (avoiding spoilers) wiped the floor with me. This game is hilarious sometimes man. Rocking the double big-head atm.


----------



## SamSam

OK. Moonveil is a beastly weapon. Even if they would cut the weapon art damage by 30% it would still be obscene.


----------



## LostTheTone

I too am having fun with some of the unique weapons now - I swapped my claymore for Rosus' Axe found in one of the catacombs. It's not obviously exciting because it's just an axe but it is Str/Dex/Int scaling which works very well for me as a Quality build with a sideline in casting.

It's a lot faster, which is good, and I don't think the paper damage is very much lower and it's skill is basically "ultra heavy attack that also summons skeletons to smack them" which is fine by me.


----------



## CTID

i found this game's version of the moonlight greatsword and respecced out of dex to put into INT for it.

also i've been hearing horror stories about how hard the last few bosses in the game are, and i think i've finally reached that point in the game? i'm still unsure how far from the end i am at 85 hours but i've burned the Erdtree, woke up in Crumbling Farum Azula, and now i'm fighting maliketh. and this whole zone is no joke, everything is strong and the boss i've already beaten is in the top 5 most bullshit fights in the series, imo


----------



## wankerness

SamSam said:


> OK. Moonveil is a beastly weapon. Even if they would cut the weapon art damage by 30% it would still be obscene.



I am not going to be at all surprised if they nerf the shit out of it based on how much I've heard that every dummy has it in PVP. I'm just hoping it will still be very good. In DS3 I remember they nerfed the Fume Ultragreatsword a few months after launch and it went from being by far the best ultra greatsword to being so bad it's *completely* useless. Like, post-nerf it does a lot less damage than weapons that weigh a lot less than it, so the only reason to use it at all is looks. Wayyyy too heavy-handed with the nerfbat, I think. Famously DS2 also nerfed the shit out of lightning miracles in multiple ways and turned them from "way too good" to "so incredibly bad they're totally non-viable." Like, at first it had 10 charges for lightning spear and it would seriously take out bosses in like 5-6 casts. Post nerf, you had THREE charges, AND it would take like 20 of them to kill a boss, making it totally worthless except as a gimmick to surprise people in pvp a couple times.



CTID said:


> i found this game's version of the moonlight greatsword and respecced out of dex to put into INT for it.
> 
> also i've been hearing horror stories about how hard the last few bosses in the game are, and i think i've finally reached that point in the game? i'm still unsure how far from the end i am at 85 hours but i've burned the Erdtree, woke up in Crumbling Farum Azula, and now i'm fighting maliketh. and this whole zone is no joke, everything is strong and the boss i've already beaten is in the top 5 most bullshit fights in the series, imo



You mean the Dark Moon Greatsword? Or something else? I got that. I'm now finally putting points in int with the goal of using the sword of ice and flame or whatever that aoe legendary thing is called (now up to a whopping 12, of 24 required!!).

I got a few incantations yesterday that required 50 faith, haven't tried them out. Guessing they're spectacular and probably pretty useless.

I am pretty late game, but I'm making absolutely sure I do everything in


Spoiler



Leyendell, because I read once you clear a certain area it burns up and you get locked out a bunch of it.


 So, I'm going around making sure I'm doing all the NPC quests possible, which is requiring a LOT of looking stuff up, cause the quests in this game are mostly insane. I am glad I did the Ranni one that gets you the Dark Moon Greatsword, cause yesterday I went through the


Spoiler



Leyendell sewers, which end with a boss, and then there's a secret wall that goes into another MONSTROUS underground zone I hadn't been to previously (I didn't read about it, and I didn't happen upon the entrance to it in Limura). At the end of THAT zone, there was an NPC that wanted an item that I'd gotten at the end of the Ranni chain, and giving that to them spawned yet another boss, which was by far the most visually spectacular one I've seen in the game yet. I was overlevelled for it, but hey, that made it fun instead of frustrating.



I am dreading going back to Mountaintop of the Giants, which is an overtuned mess. I did get the really cool deer antler armor so maybe I'll switch to that and see if it makes any difference in survivability. I also have Moghwyn Palace that I haven't tried the boss on yet, but I think I got to him before teleporting out.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> I got a few incantations yesterday that required 50 faith, haven't tried them out. Guessing they're spectacular and probably pretty useless.



Isn't the only good spell in Souls history that had 50+ INT/FAITH Crystal Soul Spear, and literally everything else that high is flat out garbage? 

Would be a shame to break that tradition


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> Isn't the only good spell in Souls history that had 50+ INT/FAITH Crystal Soul Spear, and literally everything else that high is flat out garbage?
> 
> Would be a shame to break that tradition


There's some int spell in this game everyone talks about as "kamehameha" that's supposedly incredibly overpowered against bosses. I just looked it up, and it's called Comet Azur and requires 60 int!

There's one that requires 70 that you get from the second major boss, too, but I dunno if that one's any good.


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> You mean the Dark Moon Greatsword?


I do. The weapon art for it is moonlight greatsword and i'm lazy so i just keep calling it that


wankerness said:


> There's some int spell in this game everyone talks about as "kamehameha" that's supposedly incredibly overpowered against bosses. I just looked it up, and it's called Comet Azur and requires 60 int!


i've seen a friend use this and it's absolutely busted, it's almost certainly going to be nerfed, but while it lasts it seems fun for the meme. who knows though, maybe from wants people to be OP? Some of these final fights are fuckin ridiculous


----------



## LostTheTone

CTID said:


> I do. The weapon art for it is moonlight greatsword and i'm lazy so i just keep calling it that
> 
> i've seen a friend use this and it's absolutely busted, it's almost certainly going to be nerfed, but while it lasts it seems fun for the meme. who knows though, maybe from wants people to be OP? Some of these final fights are fuckin ridiculous



Its honestly hard to say what is intentional with From.

There's plenty of times where they give a boss a "weakness" and its so extreme that the boss just collapses and is totally trivial, and it feels like you used a glitch. 

But I do agree in this game they are throwing stuff at you like ash summons and wonderous physicks and stuff that is borderline busted, but some fights seem to assume that you will be using them at full potential and happily slap you on the bellend if you aren't. 

The dude I'm fighting atm is Cemetery Shade and he is just... The fight is another small room with multiple reassembling skeletons, and this boss who teleports and is a fucking damage blender and also deals a lot of bleed. He doesn't have much HP, but if he catches you you're fucked. I think the only way to do him without using all those extra things is to be so fucking hard that you can one-hit kill him, and even then you need to sprint at him and do a jumping R2. 

Is this intentional or is this Ceaseless Discharge? We may never know.


----------



## stevexc

Mathemagician said:


> So i one-shot the wolf boss in Raya in one go. But that little knight after the obvious location (avoiding spoilers) wiped the floor with me. This game is hilarious sometimes man. Rocking the double big-head atm.



He felt super easy. He killed me my first time because I biffed my roll after I dropped the jellyfish and got caught on the door frame, so he just pinned me against the door and went to town. Second time I got out of the way and just beat him right up, but got cocky at the end and he killed me - but juuuuust before I fully dissolved I got the "GREAT ENEMY FELLED" or whatever message. Then the game froze at the load screen and I had to Alt+F4 and I just couldn't bring myself to restart to see if it saved it until the next day. All good though, got the credit!

First and only freeze I've had thus far though. It did crash once later on somehow - I had alt+tabbed to check something, got up to run to the washroom, and when I came back the game was closed. Not sure what happened.




LostTheTone said:


> Its honestly hard to say what is intentional with From.
> 
> There's plenty of times where they give a boss a "weakness" and its so extreme that the boss just collapses and is totally trivial, and it feels like you used a glitch.
> 
> But I do agree in this game they are throwing stuff at you like ash summons and wonderous physicks and stuff that is borderline busted, but some fights seem to assume that you will be using them at full potential and happily slap you on the bellend if you aren't.
> 
> The dude I'm fighting atm is Cemetery Shade and he is just... The fight is another small room with multiple reassembling skeletons, and this boss who teleports and is a fucking damage blender and also deals a lot of bleed. He doesn't have much HP, but if he catches you you're fucked. I think the only way to do him without using all those extra things is to be so fucking hard that you can one-hit kill him, and even then you need to sprint at him and do a jumping R2.
> 
> Is this intentional or is this Ceaseless Discharge? We may never know.



In the other fight with Cemetery Shade on the Weeping Peninsula I thoroughly stomped him (and the skellies throughout the dungeon) with the traditional


Spoiler



Holy damage


. That weakness goes beyond the franchise for sure.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah from an enemy & layout design perspective, There are plenty of lesser enemies that are openly designed to punish me for being a caster. Either I snipe them from far away or they gang up and maul me. And honestly that’s fine because it’s easy to miss them if I’m not paying attention. Feels like the game is designed to punish sloppiness, not necessarily my specific build or w/e. If I was melee I’m sure I’d have more than 3 allocated to crimson flasks, so it evens out.
Ashes are cool and sometimes they help with a boss a lot, other times the same ones I’d used literally just disappear in the first boss swing.


----------



## Mathemagician

….I’m in this and I don’t like it. 18 vigor, 43 intelligence checking in.


----------



## Tree

Health is such an important part of every build in these games unless you’re deliberately going glass cannon. It should always be your “main” stat investment IMO. 

For a caster, just hit minimum stat requirements for your weapon, whatever the soft cap is your spell damage stat (be it INT, FTH or both), have just enough stamina to roll 2-3 times after attacking or casting, and (not really applicable to Elden Ring or Bloodborne, but VIT/equip load for decent enough armor). Everything else should be allocated to health soft caps. 

Obviously this is assuming a finished build, but if you keep that in mind as you progress and level you should be fine for the most part.


----------



## Mathemagician

Nah fam I wanna drop 70 INT nukes at level 60 ASAP. Either they die or I die. I have no other plan.


----------



## Choop

Switched from the Greatsword to the Golden Halberd, upgraded it, and have been having a bit of a better time so far lol. It hits for about as much damage as the Greatsword did, but I can attack more times since it isn't as crazy heavy. The only real downside is I don't stagger enemies easily anymore... :C Having a quicker recover is a good tradeoff though. I feel much more comfortable fighting bosses, who can be hard/impossible to stagger anyway.


----------



## wankerness

Played for hours yesterday, made a little bit of progress. I killed the


Spoiler



Flame Giant boss, who is frustrating and killed me a bunch until I watched one video where the guy was constantly mounting up to close distances and then dismounting to actually hit him. I changed my horse to be in my "pouch" so now I have a consistent "keybind" for it instead of having to cycle through my inventory to mount/dismount. It still took me like 5 attempts once I had the right strategy, and I had to switch back to my scythe cause he was super fire-resistant in second phase.


 After him, then I just mostly got mad a lot. Some of the end areas of this game are utter bullshit, they're easily the worst Souls areas of all time when it comes to volume and nastiness of enemies - they make the Ringed City look like Undead Burg. I legitimately am starting to hate this game as I bang my head against the wall with some of these areas.

I'm talking specifically about:



Spoiler



1) Miquella's Haligtree, which is basically a ton of tiny narrow branches COVERED with those little assholes with the trumpets - it seems unless you are rocking an upgraded greatbow or are a mage build, you're in for non-stop frustration. I am a faith build, and none of my spells have the range to hit them, plus they all have the annoyance where my character steps forward to cast. I could always get a ways in, then I get to a part with a huge overlook where a guy that's so high up you can't see him and the ground at the same time starts spamming you with nukes that can take off 3/4 of your health (if you have 40 vigor) as you have to run a LONG way. It would be very difficult to roll through the bubble masses he spams at you even if you could see them coming while also seeing the bridge you're balancing on. And any time you die, you have to carefully creep through all the branches, killing around 15 of those little trumpet assholes/ants again, just to have a second shot at the gauntlet of shit. I'm thinking I'm going to have to respec mage just to get through the first section. I've seen a LOT of complaints about the final boss of that area being insanely overtuned even relative to other endgame bosses, so that should be fun if I ever get there.

2) Crumbling Farum Azula, which is just a nightmare of super overtuned enemies. The worst, by far, are these giant maggot-faced fucks that are basically MEGA basilisks. They absolutely spam deathclouds, have FAR more range with them than the basilisks do, and worst of all, have about 6,000 health and infinite poise so you can't stop them casting. All I can do is just spam my weapon art on blasphemous blade 3 times to kill them as quickly as possible, since there is no hope in hell of legitimately engaging them without dying in a death cloud since you can't interrupt them and they will not stop spamming it everywhere. But some of them are in packs!!!



I did beat the second, 2-phase version of Mohg, via cheese, cause screw that guy. I got him to phase 2 repeatedly but couldn't come close to denting his health at that point, even using


Spoiler



the specifically mixed flask as directed.



I definitely think they're going to nerf the shit out of the late areas of this game when more people get to these end-game areas. I have been looking at completion rates on boss achievements - it's like 10% all the way through flame giant but like .7% for actually beating the game. There's precedent for area nerfs, I know they nerfed the shit out of caster damage in Shrine of Amana and I heard they nerfed the Ringed City DLC archers and angels somehow (not sure how). But yeah, there's a very hard diminishing returns on any actual defense and damage at some point, and I've reached it, so if enemies are still absolutely obscene they're never going to get doable with the game tuned as it is right now.

I did find the Comet Azur kamehamahemaaha spell accidentally yesterday when exploring the basin around volcano manor, so if I do go 60 int right now maybe I could cheese my way through the awful sections before they inevitably nerf that spell! To go int, I'll need a couple more ancient somber dragon smithing stones (one for a staff, one for the katana). Unfortunately I think all others are locked behind these nasty areas. But, +9 is probably high enough!


----------



## SamSam

Mathemagician said:


> View attachment 104348
> 
> 
> ….I’m in this and I don’t like it. 18 vigor, 43 intelligence checking in.


 This is not the way.

At least not usually prior to ng+ anyway? As long as I have just enough to survive the big hit it's all good!


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> View attachment 104348
> 
> 
> ….I’m in this and I don’t like it. 18 vigor, 43 intelligence checking in.


There's a lot of truth to this post. I definitely had to prioritize vigor at a certain point around midgame, things were just getting too frustrating, especially with little enemies that hit you relentlessly that have bleed or frostbite, since if your healthpool is low you will usually just die instantly if bleed procs. I got it up to 30 for a zone or two, then 35, now at 40. There are diminishing returns after 40 so I don't think I'll go further.

Surviving "the big hit" isn't the problem, the problem is there are a* lot* of things that will hit you while you're stunned from "the big hit" and if your vigor is at 20 you'll just die. Your garden variety enemy will 2-shot you with 20 vigor.


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> -snip-


couldn't agree more with the endgame areas. I had a friend help me with the final boss of the first area you listed and it took us ~3ish hours to kill her. Her moveset is insane and her gimmick is that she heals herself with every attack that lands on you - even if you blocked it. Terrible.

Second area i thought was one of the most annoying areas to navigate in the game, along with being stuffed with enemies that do insane damage, and has the most insane gank fight of the game (imo) and then the final boss of the area was just insane. though credit where it's due, it felt like that boss was at least marginally more fair than the others i've mentioned.

i was watching a friend who just started a new game running through Limgrave and remembered all the positives i had with the game and have kind of come to realize most of my good memories with elden ring are from the first like 40 hours, and the the back half of this game has been like the torture scene in Casino Royale. i'm fighting the final boss right now and when i'm done i think it'll take a while for me to come to terms with how i even feel about this game in the first place, which incidentally is how i felt about Dark Souls 2 when i beat it, too.


----------



## wankerness

CTID said:


> couldn't agree more with the endgame areas. I had a friend help me with the final boss of the first area you listed and it took us ~3ish hours to kill her. Her moveset is insane and her gimmick is that she heals herself with every attack that lands on you - even if you blocked it. Terrible.
> 
> Second area i thought was one of the most annoying areas to navigate in the game, along with being stuffed with enemies that do insane damage, and has the most insane gank fight of the game (imo) and then the final boss of the area was just insane. though credit where it's due, it felt like that boss was at least marginally more fair than the others i've mentioned.
> 
> i was watching a friend who just started a new game running through Limgrave and remembered all the positives i had with the game and have kind of come to realize most of my good memories with elden ring are from the first like 40 hours, and the the back half of this game has been like the torture scene in Casino Royale. i'm fighting the final boss right now and when i'm done i think it'll take a while for me to come to terms with how i even feel about this game in the first place, which incidentally is how i felt about Dark Souls 2 when i beat it, too.


You thought Dark Souls 2 got too punishing at the end? I think that game's the easiest of the trilogy. Well, unless you are talking SOTFS's DLC areas. I guess the throne watcher and defender fight is a huge pain in the ass if you don't summon, and there is that one crazy gravestone area towards the end. Or maybe you just meant you had a negative impression of it by the end?

I actually got through the Crumbling zone yesterday - I just had to skip the section I mentioned with the death breath guys. I did the rest of the zone and even fought


Spoiler



]Alexander.


 The gank boss was a nightmare when I tried to fight them legitimately, especially when I realized it wasn't really a duo. I had to resort yet again to just spamming weapon art on blasphemous blade repeatedly. That was incredibly effective and I beat it in two tries with that strategy. It's just like, with those kinds of overtuned messes of fights you either have to git gud on a level not required for any previous soulsborne boss, or you have to just do whatever you can to beat them, and that makes it feel kind of unsatisfying when you win. I'm not going to be surprised if they nerf the shit out of Blasphemous Blade along with Moonveil and Comet Azur, but for now, it seems the only way to not break your controller.

The last boss of the area I thought was fine. He wasn't easy, but he felt balanced.

I'm now cleaning up a ton of mini-dungeons (the worst one I did last night was the one with the greatly upgraded version of Astel in it, that took me a good hour of deaths to kill him even with the Mimic tear), doing NPC quests, and doing things like collecting all the legendary weapons/incantations/talismans that I can get without going to the Haligtree. I think I'm just going to spec mage for it because of that horrendous first section. Having actual long-range nukes seems like it will make things a lot less painful.


----------



## wankerness

Well, beat the game, had all three endings ready to go, now for platinum I just have to go back and do that one remaining awful zone with the trumpets in trees to get the boss trophies there as well as the stuff necessary for dung eater/talisman trophy/summon trophy. I got through phase 1 of the last boss just fine, but the last one seemed incredibly terrible against my build and was a monstrous HP sponge. I tried out the "comet azur" nuke build and took him from 100-40% in one cast! The rest of the fight was a little scary, but yeah. That spell is just ridiculous. No way they don't nerf it into oblivion. But I fully endorse people using it until they balance these last zones around people that aren't cheesing!


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> You thought Dark Souls 2 got too punishing at the end? I think that game's the easiest of the trilogy. Well, unless you are talking SOTFS's DLC areas. Or maybe you just meant you had a negative impression of it by the end?


specifically referring to the optional areas in the DLC ie Cave of the Dead with the 3 on 1 NPC fight with the insane boss run, Frigid Outskirts with the 2 cats and the actual 6 minute boss run with rudolph and co tap dancing on my fuckin head, and shout out to the boss runs to the second Smelter Demon and Sir Alonne fights. all of those areas are such horrific gank fests and that sort of mood is kind of what Elden Ring has been giving me towards the end of it.

as of right now, having trouble with the second half of the final boss so i've just been slamming my head against that since it just has SO much HP and loves to just essentially teleport 100m away from me whenever it feels like i've hit it too many times (ie more than like, 3 times)


----------



## CanserDYI

And this week in freak gaming apparently someone already did a speedrun of Elden Ring in an hour.


----------



## Tree

wankerness said:


> You thought Dark Souls 2 got too punishing at the end? I think that game's the easiest of the trilogy. Well, unless you are talking SOTFS's DLC areas. I guess the throne watcher and defender fight is a huge pain in the ass if you don't summon, and there is that one crazy gravestone area towards the end. Or maybe you just meant you had a negative impression of it by the end?
> 
> I actually got through the Crumbling zone yesterday - I just had to skip the section I mentioned with the death breath guys. I did the rest of the zone and even fought
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> ]Alexander.
> 
> 
> The gank boss was a nightmare when I tried to fight them legitimately, especially when I realized it wasn't really a duo. I had to resort yet again to just spamming weapon art on blasphemous blade repeatedly. That was incredibly effective and I beat it in two tries with that strategy. It's just like, with those kinds of overtuned messes of fights you either have to git gud on a level not required for any previous soulsborne boss, or you have to just do whatever you can to beat them, and that makes it feel kind of unsatisfying when you win. I'm not going to be surprised if they nerf the shit out of Blasphemous Blade along with Moonveil and Comet Azur, but for now, it seems the only way to not break your controller.
> 
> The last boss of the area I thought was fine. He wasn't easy, but he felt balanced.
> 
> I'm now cleaning up a ton of mini-dungeons (the worst one I did last night was the one with the greatly upgraded version of Astel in it, that took me a good hour of deaths to kill him even with the Mimic tear), doing NPC quests, and doing things like collecting all the legendary weapons/incantations/talismans that I can get without going to the Haligtree. I think I'm just going to spec mage for it because of that horrendous first section. Having actual long-range nukes seems like it will make things a lot less painful.





CTID said:


> specifically referring to the optional areas in the DLC ie Cave of the Dead with the 3 on 1 NPC fight with the insane boss run, Frigid Outskirts with the 2 cats and the actual 6 minute boss run with rudolph and co tap dancing on my fuckin head, and shout out to the boss runs to the second Smelter Demon and Sir Alonne fights. all of those areas are such horrific gank fests and that sort of mood is kind of what Elden Ring has been giving me towards the end of it.
> 
> as of right now, having trouble with the second half of the final boss so i've just been slamming my head against that since it just has SO much HP and loves to just essentially teleport 100m away from me whenever it feels like i've hit it too many times (ie more than like, 3 times)



Supposedly the endgame DLCs in SOTFS were designed with coop in mind, so I wonder if that’s the same case for what you two are describing for the latter portions of Elden Ring. One would hope not, and it’s entirely possible that since the game is still new there will still be some overall balance changes to the PVE. 

My first time playing through DS1 was an unpatched version, so enemies were hyper aggressive, would follow you to the moon and back, and hardly dropped souls. Needless to say, my second time through the game was much easier


----------



## CTID

well, finally beat it. a bit over 100 hours from start to finish.



Tree said:


> Supposedly the endgame DLCs in SOTFS were designed with coop in mind, so I wonder if that’s the same case for what you two are describing for the latter portions of Elden Ring. One would hope not, and it’s entirely possible that since the game is still new there will still be some overall balance changes to the PVE.


i've heard the same and tbh my guess is that at least some of the encounters late game are tuned for co-op. i'm interested to see if they retune any of the fights. they're definitely going to nerf comet azur and probably bleed damage as well.

overall i'm super positive on the game but imo the ending was extremely difficult. in retrospect very surprised to see how most reviewers referred to this as the easiest souls game


----------



## Mathemagician

The ground hands bro. How are they so aggressive?


----------



## wankerness

CTID said:


> well, finally beat it. a bit over 100 hours from start to finish.
> 
> 
> i've heard the same and tbh my guess is that at least some of the encounters late game are tuned for co-op. i'm interested to see if they retune any of the fights. they're definitely going to nerf comet azur and probably bleed damage as well.
> 
> overall i'm super positive on the game but imo the ending was extremely difficult. in retrospect very surprised to see how most reviewers referred to this as the easiest souls game


Most reviewers I saw had clearly only made it through the first few areas, if that. I think the game is a solid 10/10 up until maybe the capital, and then it steadily declines from there, turning frustrating and tedious.

I do not think it was tuned for coop. From what I’m reading online, the harder bosses are HARDER in coop since the reduced player damage and increased boss hp make phases take longer than if you’re both doing it one player with an ash. 

Also a lot of what makes the areas so miserable is the sheer volume of enemies in combination with extreme environmental hazards. Halo gyre is like if there were 20 Anor Londo archers, their arrows could curve around at weird angles to destroy you even when you were in cover, and the whole level was a bunch of the rail-less walkways. I hate it so much. I’ve been slowly creeping through killing EVERYTHING, but I still get annihilated at the stretch where an elite way far away out of your range spams attacks that hit you for 90% of a 40 vigor health bar while you’re trying to race past a bunch of flowers that are spewing scarlet rot clouds. I’ve died repeatedly and every attempt takes 20 minutes to set up.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> The ground hands bro. How are they so aggressive?


If you’re in the area I think you’re in, and have a decent weapon, you can hit them while they’re underground and stunlock them to death. The big ones sure will wreck you if they are allowed to come after you. So damn relentless, they’re like the rune bears. Well, not nearly as much HP, but similar “oh no oh no oh no” reaction inducing as they rapidly beat the shit out of you or take your stamina down to 0 in two hits on a shield. 

I definitely slowly and carefully went through that whole yard looking for fingernails in the dirt!!


----------



## LostTheTone

I'm just checking in to say that Preceptor Miriam is a dogshit boss programmed by bad people.

Doesn't matter when I go back to her tower and try her again, this is still the absolute worst.


----------



## LostTheTone

CanserDYI said:


> And this week in freak gaming apparently someone already did a speedrun of Elden Ring in an hour.


 
Open world games are notoriously easy to do busted speedruns of. When you just have to do the absolute minimum to progress and are psychotic at executing things no matter how difficult, a huge game slims down to just a corridor with bosses in it. I doubt Elden Ring is so busted you can just run from the start to the finish (which you can do in some of the older Elder Scrolls and IIRC one of the isometric Fallout games) but stripping out all of the exploration and levelling doesn't lead a huge amount to do.


----------



## LostTheTone

Tree said:


> Health is such an important part of every build in these games unless you’re deliberately going glass cannon. It should always be your “main” stat investment IMO.



I've been thinking about this as I've been trying to farm up some levels today and I think I've put my finger on why (to me at least) DS3 and ER feels somehow less satisfying than the classic DS1 combat/character building. 

In DS1, VIT is a dead stat. It's not totally worthless, but its a dreadful investment. And it's such a bad investment because dodging and blocking are free and very effective. You can't quite avoid damage totally, but the boss design is such that it's quite plausible for an average player to just dodgeroll their way to victory. And the best way to do that is to build just for damage and stamina.

In DS3 and ER, almost all of the bosses have long, fast, erratic and wildly flailing combos that cover huge amounts of space. It's effectively impossible to block through them all, and dodging is a big ask too because you need to do multiple dodges timed exactly right and if you fluff one you get stunlocked and take the rest of the combo. 

In that world it's clearly better to tank, doubly so because the DS3 and ER weapons are so hugely toned down. You can do some credible damage, of course, but it's nothing like kind of bulldozer that you could be in DS1 or DS2. Even when you just pump only your damage stats, you come across a lot of boss fights where you are just chipping, not taking off proper chunks. 

It almost feels like the whole paradigm has reversed - You really don't get huge damage anyway, so it feels like you shouldn't even bother trying. Just go with Raw-style builds and focus on VIT and END. There's lots of boss fights were just being really tanky makes them kinda laughable. If they can't burst you down, you just estus and shrug. 

But that also feels super unsatisfying to me, compared to the DS1 approach, where you kinda want to go naked, dodge like crazy and deal mucho damage. That's quite a glass cannon approach, but it also gives you that zen sense of mastery to stand in a fight and not be intimidated at all, just dodge and weave and strike and move. The feeling I keep getting in ER is much more that I need to out last the bosses, and that it doesn't matter so much if I dodge or block properly.


----------



## wankerness

How far are you?? You most definitely can’t use a tank approach to anything in the last like, 30% of the game. Mostly gigantic aoe magic attacks that take off almost all your health if you don’t perfectly roll (ex the boss will burst four times and two hits is a guaranteed death no matter what unless you use the dmg reduction flask) and unless you’re using a crazy weapon art like hoarfrost stomp or the blasphemous blade’s to very rapidly nuke the boss, your luck will eventually run out. You just seem to be making a lot of sweeping pronouncements about bad game design based on stuff that isn’t even true past the first bunch of the game, first with ashes and now this!

I now only have the Valkyrie boss left, tried her once and got wrecked. Just respecced back to faith and will try her again this evening. She’s all I have left for the platinum!!


----------



## Tree

LostTheTone said:


> I've been thinking about this as I've been trying to farm up some levels today and I think I've put my finger on why (to me at least) DS3 and ER feels somehow less satisfying than the classic DS1 combat/character building.
> 
> In DS1, VIT is a dead stat. It's not totally worthless, but its a dreadful investment. And it's such a bad investment because dodging and blocking are free and very effective. You can't quite avoid damage totally, but the boss design is such that it's quite plausible for an average player to just dodgeroll their way to victory. And the best way to do that is to build just for damage and stamina.
> 
> In DS3 and ER, almost all of the bosses have long, fast, erratic and wildly flailing combos that cover huge amounts of space. It's effectively impossible to block through them all, and dodging is a big ask too because you need to do multiple dodges timed exactly right and if you fluff one you get stunlocked and take the rest of the combo.
> 
> In that world it's clearly better to tank, doubly so because the DS3 and ER weapons are so hugely toned down. You can do some credible damage, of course, but it's nothing like kind of bulldozer that you could be in DS1 or DS2. Even when you just pump only your damage stats, you come across a lot of boss fights where you are just chipping, not taking off proper chunks.
> 
> It almost feels like the whole paradigm has reversed - You really don't get huge damage anyway, so it feels like you shouldn't even bother trying. Just go with Raw-style builds and focus on VIT and END. There's lots of boss fights were just being really tanky makes them kinda laughable. If they can't burst you down, you just estus and shrug.
> 
> But that also feels super unsatisfying to me, compared to the DS1 approach, where you kinda want to go naked, dodge like crazy and deal mucho damage. That's quite a glass cannon approach, but it also gives you that zen sense of mastery to stand in a fight and not be intimidated at all, just dodge and weave and strike and move. The feeling I keep getting in ER is much more that I need to out last the bosses, and that it doesn't matter so much if I dodge or block properly.


I actually feel pretty much the exact opposite as you on this

In DS1, easy mode is to Vitality gouge so you can be a poise boi and literally tank through all attacks even when healing. That’s also why Giant Dad was such a viable meme build against inexperienced PVP players.

Since Bloodborne, there has been a much larger emphasis on the fights action being ramped up to coincide with the player’s speed. So, IME there’s a much larger emphasis on dodging as well, rather than taking hits, unless you use a shield that has 80-100% defenses to whatever the enemy/boss is using (physical, fire, etc.)

Also, it’s still entirely possible to meme on, and trivialize a lot of the bosses in DS3, and I’m sure people will figure it out in Elden Ring as well. Have you ever tried using Dark Blade on the Crucifix of the Mad King and going up against the Dancer? You can take her down in like 30 seconds


----------



## wankerness

Tree said:


> I actually feel pretty much the exact opposite as you on this
> 
> In DS1, easy mode is to Vitality gouge so you can be a poise boi and literally tank through all attacks even when healing. That’s also why Giant Dad was such a viable meme build against inexperienced PVP players.
> 
> Since Bloodborne, there has been a much larger emphasis on the fights action being ramped up to coincide with the player’s speed. So, IME there’s a much larger emphasis on dodging as well, rather than taking hits, unless you use a shield that has 80-100% defenses to whatever the enemy/boss is using (physical, fire, etc.)
> 
> Also, it’s still entirely possible to meme on, and trivialize a lot of the bosses in DS3, and I’m sure people will figure it out in Elden Ring as well. Have you ever tried using Dark Blade on the Crucifix of the Mad King and going up against the Dancer? You can take her down in like 30 seconds


You can definitely trivialize bosses here with the right builds. I went faith not having a clue how good it would be and got the boss weapon and inadvertently happened upon one of the practical cheese builds for some bosses, ex godskin duo. And then I purposely went cheese build for the two headed dragon in Farum and the last boss of the game, both of whom I ended up taking 100-40 with a single comet cast and then finished off with subsequent short bursts of it when I sAw openings over the next thirty seconds or so.


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> I do not think it was tuned for coop. From what I’m reading online, the harder bosses are HARDER in coop since the reduced player damage and increased boss hp make phases take longer than if you’re both doing it one player with an ash.


the more i think on this, the more i agree with this EXCEPT malenia, and the main reason behind that is mimic literally just feeds her HP because it's braindead and doesn't want to dodge any attacks. every other fight is easier if you pop mimic than it is to actually have another player, even if it means you're playing with someone with some level of self preservation.


----------



## Mathemagician

Just a tip for anyone pacing themselves. 



Minimal spoilies:
Death root guy? If you start getting smacked around, pull him to the front doors for breathing room.


----------



## Mboogie7

just picked this up and it's gotta be game of the year. it's the most visually stunning game i've ever seen in my life, and it just. keeps. going. This game is 10/10 for me so far and I've only just started lol.


----------



## Jake

I've hit my first brick wall in the game lol 



Spoiler



Valiant Gargoyles fight is some absolute bullshit and I feel like the rest of the duo fights down the road are going to make me want to die



I've beaten 3 of the demigod bosses so far but I'm at the point of no return for grinding where I need to SERIOUSLY level up. And at 30k+ runes per level that's a lot for where I'm at lol


----------



## wankerness

I could deal with any duo fights thanks to the mimic tear +10 with my somewhat tanky build being incredibly good (tip - equip perfume bottles and the heal spell, the mimic will use them).

The one I hated was the trio of crystal assholes that also inflicts blood rot with all their attacks. And then they show up as a respawning mob in haligtree. Awesome!


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> I'm just checking in to say that Preceptor Miriam is a dogshit boss programmed by bad people.
> 
> Doesn't matter when I go back to her tower and try her again, this is still the absolute worst.


I just shot her with arrows after flipping the level, took like five minutes but only got hit by her once.


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> I just shot her with arrows after flipping the level, took like five minutes but only got hit by her once.


fun fact though, if you kill her before you flip the tower, she respawns with the new area. though much easier the second time around IME. the regular level was way more frustrating because i didn't have any ranged abilities at the time so i had to keep sprinting the loop at the top to try to catch up and land one hit at a time. really sucked


----------



## wankerness

CTID said:


> fun fact though, if you kill her before you flip the tower, she respawns with the new area. though much easier the second time around IME. the regular level was way more frustrating because i didn't have any ranged abilities at the time so i had to keep sprinting the loop at the top to try to catch up and land one hit at a time. really sucked


I went in ONCE in the non-flipped version when I was like level 30, got wrecked by her, and noped out of there immediately. I wonder if she'd respawn if I set the tower back to normal? Though at this point I'd probably stomp her, I'm like level 165.


----------



## CTID

my guess is yes. i can't remember if she drops anything, though.


----------



## destroyerdogs

She drops some sorceries iirc


----------



## Mathemagician

Damn I just beat Rennala and kept wondering why the PVP manor area was so tough to explore. 

After getting there the “normal” way I now realize just how far ahead that area was, lmao.


----------



## CTID

so i decided to do some more achievement hunting. missed one of the legendary weapons the first time through, and there's still 2 more endings, so i started my NG+ run earlier this afternoon and killed margit and godrick within 25 minutes of starting, and was in raya lucaria within 40 total. i always forget how OP you are even on NG+ at the beginning, so the second time through will definitely be considerably shorter. not sure i'm even remotely interested in killing malenia again, though.


----------



## wankerness

Im assuming ng+ is like ds1 or bloodborne or sekiro and there’s no point besides fun/stuff you missed? Ds2’s ng+ is by far the best of these games so far, with tons of new enemies and boss drops for multiple cycles. DS3...added some rings to ng+ and ng++.


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> Im assuming ng+ is like ds1 or bloodborne or sekiro and there’s no point besides fun/stuff you missed? Ds2’s ng+ is by far the best of these games so far, with tons of new enemies and boss drops for multiple cycles. DS3...added some rings to ng+ and ng++.


so far, yes. exactly the same apart from the fact that i haven't done a single dungeon or cave and have killed Godrick, Rennala, Rahdan and Morgott in about 2-3 hours. Which took about 50 hours in my first time through. Turns out when you're already basically maxed out there's no real reason to go dungeon crawling so subsequent playthroughs are MUCH shorter


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> I just shot her with arrows after flipping the level, took like five minutes but only got hit by her once.



Can someone tell me what "flipping" the tower means? 

I've just ignored her (like most of the dragons) because she seemed too frustrating to want to bother.


----------



## LostTheTone

Tree said:


> I actually feel pretty much the exact opposite as you on this
> 
> In DS1, easy mode is to Vitality gouge so you can be a poise boi and literally tank through all attacks even when healing. That’s also why Giant Dad was such a viable meme build against inexperienced PVP players.
> 
> Since Bloodborne, there has been a much larger emphasis on the fights action being ramped up to coincide with the player’s speed. So, IME there’s a much larger emphasis on dodging as well, rather than taking hits, unless you use a shield that has 80-100% defenses to whatever the enemy/boss is using (physical, fire, etc.)
> 
> Also, it’s still entirely possible to meme on, and trivialize a lot of the bosses in DS3, and I’m sure people will figure it out in Elden Ring as well. Have you ever tried using Dark Blade on the Crucifix of the Mad King and going up against the Dancer? You can take her down in like 30 seconds



But the thing is... In DS1 you can crush almost every boss in 30 seconds if you have a good build. In DS2 you 100% can do that. I must have played 2000 hours of the first two games, and never once levelled Vitality. At all. Ever. I never felt any need to whatsoever. 

In ER (and DS3) I constantly feel like I'm not doing damage. To anything. To bosses or to regular enemies. Everything feels like a slog. It doesn't matter what weapon, it doesn't matter if it's a sorcery, it's just... About the same. All the sorceries I've found only do as much damage per FP as a glintstone pebble. Every weapon I find is about the same. When I look up "top X weapons" and look at the stats... They are all about the damage output, and the people writing gush about how good the weapon art is, not that this is actually a good weapon. 

The second that I started to pump HP frustrating boss fights became one-try easy modes. I don't know what else I can say to that. For a lot of these bosses (and yes, I know I'm not into the end game but if I'm not there I can't speak to whatever is going on there, just the guys that I'm fighting) if they can't one shot me, or one combo me, then I'll get them in a couple of tries. As soon as I can dodge the first couple of combo hits then I don't need to git good, they will die.


----------



## destroyerdogs

LostTheTone said:


> Can someone tell me what "flipping" the tower means?
> 
> I've just ignored her (like most of the dragons) because she seemed too frustrating to want to bother.


Won't spoil too much, but you need an item that you get from doing Ranni's quest line in order to flip the tower.


----------



## LostTheTone

destroyerdogs said:


> Won't spoil too much, but you need an item that you get from doing Ranni's quest line in order to flip the tower.



I know there is a statue (or something heavy) to go on the pressure plate at the bottom of the tower. I meant more literally, does the map turn upside down or what?


----------



## wankerness

CTID said:


> so far, yes. exactly the same apart from the fact that i haven't done a single dungeon or cave and have killed Godrick, Rennala, Rahdan and Morgott in about 2-3 hours. Which took about 50 hours in my first time through. Turns out when you're already basically maxed out there's no real reason to go dungeon crawling so subsequent playthroughs are MUCH shorter


Lame. I don't think I'll bother then. Sounds like just doing a NG with a different character would be a lot more fun. Maybe they'll patch in changes at some point? The only stuff I missed on this character were like, one minor quest with a wolf and I apparently should have killed that friendly NPC with the really long questline at the end in Haligtree cause that reward is a hell of a lot better than if you help her fight off the sisters.


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> I know there is a statue (or something heavy) to go on the pressure plate at the bottom of the tower. I meant more literally, does the map turn upside down or what?


Yes, it flips upside down so you have to descend to the top of it to get to the room you can't get when it's rightside up.

Regarding your complaints about damage, I don't know what to tell you. I never had any issues after the very beginning of the game before I'd gone exploring mines for upgrade materials. It seems damage is FAR more dependent on upgrading weapons as opposed to leveling damage stats. But yeah, in DS3, they definitely made a conscious decision to make it so you had to engage with boss mechanics, as opposed to DS1/2's NG mode where you could very easily make a laughably strong build that could kill every boss before you saw its attacks. Elden Ring is similar to DS3, but there are definitely builds/abilities you can use to get it to almost that DS1/2 level of cheese where bosses are less of a threat than regular enemies. Though that was kind of always the case, I know that on my average DS1/2 playthroughs the vast majority of my deaths would come from environmental hazards and trash mobs.

If you are constantly feeling like everything's such a slog my guess is either your build or your weapon are not very ideal. And I'm not even sure what you're complaining about with weapons. There is a ton of weapon variety, at least as much as DS3, I'd say it's up to par with DS2 which was the previous gold standard of these games IMO. It sounds also like you're saying "weapon arts don't count as the weapon being good and I won't use them" which seems like a very arbitrary, weird way to complain about the game for something that you're inflicting on yourself by choice!! Weapon arts are a very, very major component of the gameplay - it's clear they looked at DS3, saw a ton of people just weren't even trying them, and figured out how to make them integral to gameplay. I think that they'll probably end up nerfing a few of them (wave of gold and blasphemous blade's fire attack are nuts, but Hoarfrost Stomp is a million times worse cause you can put it on any weapon and get it quite early - I saw the 30 minute speed runs all involved just getting that on a weapon and then the players were able to kill godskin duo and the last bosses legitimately at like level 20 just by spamming the shit out of it). 

Anyway, I got the platinum last night. Killed Mileena first try when I went back to the faith build and never had my health go below 80% (I definitely used a buff spell for phase 2). But yeah, seemed like it would be a nightmare with a wimpier build or if you weren't using an ash.

Now I just have to go exploring to find all the rest of the dungeons, and do the handful of dungeons I found but avoided cause they were awful, like the first one I found with the chariots. All the hero's graves suck, but the chariot ones are especially annoying.


----------



## wankerness

Another thing they need to patch apart from a much larger late-game rebalancing/NG+ features one is the goddam mausoleums. I brought down like 4 of them, and two of them were totally bugged, you couldn't duplicate ANYTHING (I know that only the bell ones can duplicate great souls, so initially one of the bell-less ones I thought was bugged, but it was just cause I didn't have any non-great souls on me at the time and it worked later when I started getting some). The extremely difficult one in the Giant area that hits you with artillery barrage is the big one that was a disappointment since I died like 5 times trying to get to it. I liked that it was surrounded with comments like "is this a bug" and "sadness ahead." 

Overall, I'm not quite sure how I'd rank this game. I want to say it's the best Soulsborne game, because the gameplay and build variety are more fun than the others and most of the world is incredible, but Bloodborne's got the better mood and cohesion of "story" and DS2/3 have a lot less frustration and their levels are more focused (for obvious reasons). If they figure out the endgame I'd definitely rank it at the top.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> If you are constantly feeling like everything's such a slog my guess is either your build or your weapon are not very ideal. And I'm not even sure what you're complaining about with weapons. There is a ton of weapon variety, at least as much as DS3, I'd say it's up to par with DS2 which was the previous gold standard of these games IMO.



This is the problem dude - I have the same exact complaints with DS3.

I have no idea how optimal or not my build or equipment is. I just know that when I find new gear, even if I upgrade it to the same place as my existing stuff, it does the same damage almost exactly. If its a bigger, slower weapon it does more per hit, but not actually more damage overall.

Maybe there are busted weapons out there. I have no idea. Maybe everyone else is minmaxing a lot harder than I am. I have just gone off of how things have worked in the previous games, where you got the biggest impact from scaling between 20 and 30. In this game 30 STR with a STR scaling weapon gets fuck all damage, and two handing adds almost nothing. Maybe the sweet spot is way higher up, I have no idea. But after dumping 15 stat points it felt like a waste of time to keep going.


----------



## wankerness

LostTheTone said:


> This is the problem dude - I have the same exact complaints with DS3.
> 
> I have no idea how optimal or not my build or equipment is. I just know that when I find new gear, even if I upgrade it to the same place as my existing stuff, it does the same damage almost exactly. If its a bigger, slower weapon it does more per hit, but not actually more damage overall.
> 
> Maybe there are busted weapons out there. I have no idea. Maybe everyone else is minmaxing a lot harder than I am. I have just gone off of how things have worked in the previous games, where you got the biggest impact from scaling between 20 and 30. In this game 30 STR with a STR scaling weapon gets fuck all damage, and two handing adds almost nothing. Maybe the sweet spot is way higher up, I have no idea. But after dumping 15 stat points it felt like a waste of time to keep going.


I think this game is much more about hybrid builds so you're not going to see a damage increase unless you start engaging with weapon arts, using unique weapons instead of basic ones (or at a minimum infusing weapons with ashes to change scaling), and/or start speccing into hybrid stats or passive weapon effects like bleed or frostbite. Bleed should be pretty easy to find on a weapon, and a LOT of mobs are vulnerable to it.

The softcaps are actually higher than in previous games, like DS3 there was no reason to put more than 30-40 points into anything. Here, 60 is more normal for damage stats. Unless you have a weapon with awful scaling (C or less). 80+ is viable with some builds/gear.

I think I'm going to try and go strength/shield on my second playthrough. The shield mechanics in this game are a LOT better than in any previous DS game with the retaliation mechanic.


----------



## Tree

wankerness said:


> I think this game is much more about hybrid builds so you're not going to see a damage increase unless you start engaging with weapon arts, using unique weapons instead of basic ones (or at a minimum infusing weapons with ashes to change scaling), and/or start speccing into hybrid stats or passive weapon effects like bleed or frostbite. Bleed should be pretty easy to find on a weapon, and a LOT of mobs are vulnerable to it.
> 
> The softcaps are actually higher than in previous games, like DS3 there was no reason to put more than 30-40 points into anything. Here, 60 is more normal for damage stats. Unless you have a weapon with awful scaling (C or less). 80+ is viable with some builds/gear.
> 
> I think I'm going to try and go strength/shield on my second playthrough. The shield mechanics in this game are a LOT better than in any previous DS game with the retaliation mechanic.



I've actually just been pondering on this myself. I've still only got like 20hrs in the game, and most of that has just been exploring and helping people in the early game (up to Godrick). I was planning to do a pure, physical melee build for my first run through the game, and while viable, I have noticed that it doesn't seem particularly strong. The game is definitely pushing to invest in the different combos of ashes of war for the various WA's. That, and the fact that so many of the caster vendors are available so early on makes this pretty evident IMO. I just unlocked D yesterday, so I'm really considering doing a FTH/INT build similar to the old dark builds.


----------



## Choop

From what I've seen, most weapon scaling isn't particularly good unless it's a unique/special weapon or you have it infused with ashes. My strength only build was feeling kind of "meh", but now going more into faith and using the Golden Halberd I feel much more well-rounded.


----------



## Tree

I'm only at RL28 now, so I'm gaining virtually no benefit from scaling on anything yet. Speaking of which, am I mistaken in that there is no equivalent to the Raw infusion in this game? I've just been slapping the shit out of things with the Bandit's Curved Sword and pretending that this is DS1/DS3 where CS's are top tier . I'm definitely looking forward to digging deep into all the new mechanics with the WA's and spells.


----------



## wankerness

Tree said:


> I've actually just been pondering on this myself. I've still only got like 20hrs in the game, and most of that has just been exploring and helping people in the early game (up to Godrick). I was planning to do a pure, physical melee build for my first run through the game, and while viable, I have noticed that it doesn't seem particularly strong. The game is definitely pushing to invest in the different combos of ashes of war for the various WA's. That, and the fact that so many of the caster vendors are available so early on makes this pretty evident IMO. I just unlocked D yesterday, so I'm really considering doing a FTH/INT build similar to the old dark builds.


The monstrous number of spells and incantations in this game and the fact they all draw from the same resource pool (focus) makes me think you'd be better off going melee/caster hybrid and only spec into one of the two spell stats. Str/Faith or dex/int seem to be the better combos, but there are certainly some specialized dex/faith and str/int weapons out there too. Incantations have more variety, you get all the healing/curing/buff spells as well as all the lightning and fire damage spells. Int spells are mostly just all kinds of variations on damage. Both schools have a boulder toss spell that's required learning IMO. Int spells often have higher range than faith spells, like there's no faith spell that has anywhere close to the range of loretta's greatbow, but for the most part you'll be fine chucking lightning bolts from far away.

Incantations (faith) also have some dragon breath spells you can learn that require 15 arcane stat. But there are only like 4 incantations that require any INT to cast and IMO none of them are very good beisdes the one that only requires 13. You have to cast one that requires 37 int for some quest, but you can just equip +int gear/talismans/consumables to do the one cast required.


----------



## Mathemagician

Hey so on my way to Redmane castle in Caelid I MAY have accidentally tracked a bunch of dogs with me into the group right in front of the bridge.

But I saw a knight kneeling in front of a tree right before it looks like he got pulled into the melee. The thing is that when I reset at the grace point and went back all it did was re set their HP and it looks like the melee was still ongoing.

Was that an NPC for a quest?


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Hey so on my way to Redmane castle in Caelid I MAY have accidentally tracked a bunch of dogs with me into the group right in front of the bridge.
> 
> But I saw a knight kneeling in front of a tree right before it looks like he got pulled into the melee. The thing is that when I reset at the grace point and went back all it did was re set their HP and it looks like the melee was still ongoing.
> 
> Was that an NPC for a quest?


I dunno. Did he die? If he respawned, then no.

Quest NPCs are totally inscrutable, I'd highly recommend looking at the wiki for quest chains. Especially before


Spoiler



you fight the boss in volcano manor, again before you finish the capital, and then again when you get to the great forge.


 There's no way in a billion years I would have finished more than a couple of these quests if I hadn't read online. So many "I'm going to go on an adventure!" lines of dialogue that give zero clue whatsoever that they're going to next appear on some obscure hillside deep inside some dungeon but way off the main path and in a dungeon that you will not get to for another 20 hours, etc. And usually you don't even remember what their names are cause they don't have nameplates and the subtitles don't say their name except the very first time you talk to them in their first location.


----------



## Empryrean

So I've made it to the anime slicy slicy girl and while she is SUPER hot it's very discouraging to count that I've gone through at least 4 of her health bars in a fight, any advice besides stunlocking her with my mimic and praying she doesn't go anime mode 2 times in a row and fully heall and kill my mimic at the same time?


----------



## wankerness

Empryrean said:


> So I've made it to the anime slicy slicy girl and while she is SUPER hot it's very discouraging to count that I've gone through at least 4 of her health bars in a fight, any advice besides stunlocking her with my mimic and praying she doesn't go anime mode 2 times in a row and fully heall and kill my mimic at the same time?


Get a +10 blasphemous blade (or a maxed weapon with hoarfrost stomp) and just stay back and spam it, if your build is half decent you’ll just outdamage her healing eventually. I dunno what build you’re using.


----------



## wankerness

Two more big annoyances with this game that fortunately only popped up a few times:

They need to do something about triangle button and right/left button's priority order. If someone puts a message at the bottom of a ladder, you will just keep hitting "read message" instead of climbing the ladder. I've almost died to that a couple times in sections where I was trying to quickly escape an enemy and had to reposition and hit triangle again like 5 times before I actually started climbing instead of just reading the message.

Similarly, if you're in a place where there's a message and a bloodstain, you CAN NOT SWITCH WEAPONS. Right and left now only toggle between "touch bloodstain" and "read message" and you can't switch weapons unless you move off the spot. This was a problem a few times when trying to snipe off a narrow bridge; I was just stuck with my melee weapon/shield and couldn't do anything about it until I found a new spot.

One solution is obviously "play offline," but I'd rather they just fix this instead.


----------



## Tree

Isn’t that how it’s been in all games? I recall getting screwed over by bloodstains and messages a few times in the other games. People do it on purpose with the messages sometimes (the content of the message itself will give that away).


----------



## wankerness

Tree said:


> Isn’t that how it’s been in all games? I recall getting screwed over by bloodstains and messages a few times in the other games. People do it on purpose with the messages sometimes (the content of the message itself will give that away).


I don't know. I don't remember it ever happening in any previous game and I've played them all a bunch online. This game has a lot more messages posted everywhere than the others, though, probably partly due to it being new and thus crappy messages not all having been downvoted into oblivion yet.

EDIT: Went back to the carian study hall and unflipped it, and yep, Miriam was there. She dropped a different spell when I eventually killed her. She's a LOT more frustrating in the normal tower cause it's basically impossible to fight her with melee attacks but you also don't have a good overhead window on her to hit her with ranged. It took me like 10 minutes and I had to just whittle her down with a bow while she dodged most of the shots and frequently teleported away out of LOS. All the time, her stupid bow spell, when it connected, still did a TON of damage even when I have 40 vigor. Thank god I never messed with her in the regular tower at the intended level.


----------



## CTID

so i finished my NG+ run last night. fun fact, if my count is right, there are only 7 bosses necessary to kill to beat the entire game. my NG+ run was about 7 hours total, compared to the 99 hours my initial run took.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yep most DS games are like that too. Get the 1-2 items you absolutely need then just fuck off to the boss and start a new cycle after you grab any spells/etc you want.


(Discussing a specific zone) 
Holy crap am I glad I went exploring and was likely overleveled for the Redmane Castle boss. I would have been hella deaded. It still took me a few tries to figure it out. Definitely a really cool design for a fight. The fact that it (probably) just happens the one time makes it super unique in this series.


----------



## Empryrean

So I think im about at the homestretch of the game. I didn't realize halig stuff was going to be much more powerful than spiral dragon zone, I still don't want  melina to burn herself alive or to get myself frenzy flamed  so i found a neat skip that lets me get there without needing to  burn the erdree . I wonder if they're gonna patch that out.. either way it's nice to have +24 upgrades available without feeling like I've advanced the plot too far. I'm gonna keep trying out different weps and stuff beefore I finally  let the capital turn into ash . does anyone know if that also locks out the subterranean shunning grounds?


----------



## wankerness

CTID said:


> so i finished my NG+ run last night. fun fact, if my count is right, there are only 7 bosses necessary to kill to beat the entire game. my NG+ run was about 7 hours total, compared to the 99 hours my initial run took.


Well, if the speedrunner technique is used, the only bosses necessary are godskin duo and then the final boss pair. Think he used some kind of fall/load exploit to get from the early-game portal in west liurnia to Crumbling Farum to the main part of the level, though. Didn't ever even go to the roundtable hold or touch stormveil hold IIRC.

I think most of the fun of this game is all the exploring and doing all the mini-dungeons and building your character out. A replay where you just beeline the main bosses doesn't sound too entertaining to me, unless I wanted to try and learn them without mimic tear now that I don't have the "must complete platinum!!!" goal in my mind. I mainly just want to do a second playthrough eventually to do the handful of quests I screwed up (Letenna, the monkey guy, and then some pieces of the wolf guy and Patches' chains) and farm a couple weird pieces of gear that I missed out on (mainly the two bigger versions of the envoy horn - no way am I trying to farm that shit in the haligtree where 90% of the time when you kill the mobs they fall off the edge and can't be looted). I think I might just retire this character in the hopes they patch the Frostfield mausoleum to work before I skip to NG+.

I am, however, quite interested in replaying with a totally new character. I'd probably go strength build with a greatshield and that overpowered shield weapon art where you jack your defense rating up by 35. Or maybe I'd do some kind of frost/bleed build? I dunno. I played a bit as an int/dex build and didn't find it very fun except when I 100-0'd that goddam bastard corrupted erdtree miniboss in the haligtree's rot pond that seemed like about the hardest boss in the game to fight "legit."


----------



## CTID

wankerness said:


> I am, however, quite interested in replaying with a totally new character.


That's where i'm at as well. I did a really quick NG+ run to get another ending and the only achievement i'm missing is the third ending now (though i'm not generally an achievement hunter, i figured since i was already so close i might as well get all of them if i can) but as of right now my current plans are to let it sit for a while so i don't burn myself out with another 100 playthrough, and then i'll do my 3rd run with a new character, probably a Wretch, and do the whole hog again instead of the mad dash to the end.


----------



## Tree

Nothing important to say, but holy shit do spell buffs last a long time in this game! I just got and used Order's Blade for the first time and was so surprised. 1.5 minutes of buffed damage is NUTS!

I guess it won't be broken and game breaking for PVP since AFAIK there aren't any true combos anymore due to the way the game handles hit stun, but damn I can imagine this is capable of really neutering some bosses if any have specific elemental weaknesses.


----------



## wankerness

Tree said:


> Nothing important to say, but holy shit do spell buffs last a long time in this game! I just got and used Order's Blade for the first time and was so surprised. 1.5 minutes of buffed damage is NUTS!
> 
> I guess it won't be broken and game breaking for PVP since AFAIK there aren't any true combos anymore due to the way the game handles hit stun, but damn I can imagine this is capable of really neutering some bosses if any have specific elemental weaknesses.


It's variable. Some spells like Flame Grant Me Strength feel like they last about 10 seconds (wiki says 30, I dunno if I believe it!!) while some other really good ones like Golden Vow last 90. 

Either way I'm glad it's not like DS2 where duration is tied to your faith/int stat. In DS2 buffs lasted for almost no time at all unless you had way more of the associated stat than was required to cast the spell, like magic barrier lasting 10/30/60/90 seconds at 10/20/30/50 faith. And DS1 had idiocy like lightning blade offering no benefit durationwise over gold pine resin while only having one charge compared to gold pine resin being reusable as often as you wanted (assuming you had extras, anyway).

I started a new playthrough as sword and shield build. We'll see how this goes. Getting through that first camp sure was a LOT easier with a real shield. Took like 3 minutes to clear the whole thing as opposed to like 10 minutes of creeping around and wimpily poking with a spear on the prophet. Not sure yet what weapon to go for early on, maybe I'll try to get a claymore or just be a cheap bastard and beeline for the frost hatchet.


----------



## Mathemagician

On my mage I switch my simple +5 rapier from magic to holy to blood as needed for whatever area I’m in on the rare occasion I need to use melee. And man that is a game-changer. Just swap the ash and change element. So much easier than farming a million stones. However it makes sense given that we have to farm everything else now lol.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> On my mage I switch my simple +5 rapier from magic to holy to blood as needed for whatever area I’m in on the rare occasion I need to use melee. And man that is a game-changer. Just swap the ash and change element. So much easier than farming a million stones. However it makes sense given that we have to farm everything else now lol.


Smithing stones in this game are a very serious problem. Titanite shards always dropped like candy in the previous DS games as you progressed through them, but Smithing Stones are pathetic, I was frequently gated by not having enough to level to even the level of the enemies in the areas I was progressing through, while with my unique weapon I was multiple levels ahead. It makes sense that Somber ones be rare, cause twinkling titanite/petrified dragon bones were the equivalents in previous games and those were mostly playthrough limited, but here the regular ones are almost as uncommon and you need 12x as many of them. You can farm some of them off late game mobs, but it's rare that they drop. And if you want to buy them off the vendor, it's ridiculous too, plus you can't unlock them from vendors till late game.

Once you've finally unlocked all the bell bearings, here's equivalent rune costs for buying materials to fully upgrade a weapon from 1-24 (regular) or 1-9 (somber) assuming you buy everything off the vendors. Every three levels of weapon upgrade takes 12 smithing stones, so you're having to buy 12 of each level of smithing stone. Every level of Somber stone requires 1 stone, so you only need to buy 1 of each level.

Smithing Stone 1 - 800 - 9600 for 1-3
Smithing Stone 2 - 1600 - 19,200
3 - 2400 - 28,800
4 - 3600 - 43,200
5 - 4800 - 57,600
6 - 6000 - 72,000
7 - 9,000 - 108,000
8 - 12,000 - 144,000

482,400 for upgrading ONE weapon from 1-24.

Somber ones scale from costing 2000 to 25,000, for a total of costing 97,000 to go 1-9, so it's less than 1/4 as expensive to just buy out all the materials to max out your weapon if it's a unique one. As the unique ones tend to be far more powerful than the non-unique ones, something's very off with this!!

Yeah, I can't see why anyone would use more than one or two "regular" weapons with how ridiculous their upgrade cost is.

I just read a Reddit thread on this and it seemed like most people thought it made sense cause you can swap enchants/ashes of war on the fly with regular weapons, plus buff them, while you can't do any of that with uniques, and thus in a way the regular weapons are much more powerful. Except for the handful of really good uniques, I guess. I sorta get it, it's just annoying when there are so damn many of them and it's such a huge sink to try any out. 

Though now that I have the wave of gold sword I can farm 500k runes in a few minutes with no effort.


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah I buffed my INT to 60 to use the Carian Regal staff, but since I don’t have a single Somber +6, I can’t get it high enough to outpace my meteorite staff that I picked up some 40 hrs ago. My new staff looks cool lemme use it! And the earliest +6 is comically involved to try to get. I’ve beaten Radahn at this point, and am still using the same staff. It’s admittedly awesome, but my inability to upgrade other options is not lost on me.


----------



## Tree

RE: the drop rates for upgrades. This has been a major problem for me too in the early game. My damage output is fine, but having to decide what to use and stick with it so early is kinda lame. I really wanted to powerstance curved swords because the move set is sick as hell, but I can’t upgrade my second curved sword at all yet because I already upgraded a straight sword a fair bit (vagabond starting class) and then my current main CS. That leaves me with minimal damage on the second CS and the way the game handles dual wield attacks it kinda neutered the upgraded one. At this point I’m better off just using the one CS two-handed. I’m okay with farming for runes to buy the first tier of upgrades once I’ve got that unlocked because I can just warp to one of the later game areas (I forgot the name. It’s got “Dragon something” in the name. There’s a bunch of really tiny dudes running around outside a building that all drop 1200-5000 runes and are easy enough to backstab for the kill.

I will say this game has thrown quite a few curveballs with the learning curve at those of us who have played and grown accustomed to the older games.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Played for hours yesterday, made a little bit of progress. I killed the
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Flame Giant boss, who is frustrating and killed me a bunch until I watched one video where the guy was constantly mounting up to close distances and then dismounting to actually hit him. I changed my horse to be in my "pouch" so now I have a consistent "keybind" for it instead of having to cycle through my inventory to mount/dismount. It still took me like 5 attempts once I had the right strategy, and I had to switch back to my scythe cause he was super fire-resistant in second phase.
> 
> 
> After him, then I just mostly got mad a lot. Some of the end areas of this game are utter bullshit, they're easily the worst Souls areas of all time when it comes to volume and nastiness of enemies - they make the Ringed City look like Undead Burg. I legitimately am starting to hate this game as I bang my head against the wall with some of these areas.
> 
> I'm talking specifically about:
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 1) Miquella's Haligtree, which is basically a ton of tiny narrow branches COVERED with those little assholes with the trumpets - it seems unless you are rocking an upgraded greatbow or are a mage build, you're in for non-stop frustration. I am a faith build, and none of my spells have the range to hit them, plus they all have the annoyance where my character steps forward to cast. I could always get a ways in, then I get to a part with a huge overlook where a guy that's so high up you can't see him and the ground at the same time starts spamming you with nukes that can take off 3/4 of your health (if you have 40 vigor) as you have to run a LONG way. It would be very difficult to roll through the bubble masses he spams at you even if you could see them coming while also seeing the bridge you're balancing on. And any time you die, you have to carefully creep through all the branches, killing around 15 of those little trumpet assholes/ants again, just to have a second shot at the gauntlet of shit. I'm thinking I'm going to have to respec mage just to get through the first section. I've seen a LOT of complaints about the final boss of that area being insanely overtuned even relative to other endgame bosses, so that should be fun if I ever get there.
> 
> 2) Crumbling Farum Azula, which is just a nightmare of super overtuned enemies. The worst, by far, are these giant maggot-faced fucks that are basically MEGA basilisks. They absolutely spam deathclouds, have FAR more range with them than the basilisks do, and worst of all, have about 6,000 health and infinite poise so you can't stop them casting. All I can do is just spam my weapon art on blasphemous blade 3 times to kill them as quickly as possible, since there is no hope in hell of legitimately engaging them without dying in a death cloud since you can't interrupt them and they will not stop spamming it everywhere. But some of them are in packs!!!
> 
> 
> 
> I did beat the second, 2-phase version of Mohg, via cheese, cause screw that guy. I got him to phase 2 repeatedly but couldn't come close to denting his health at that point, even using
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> the specifically mixed flask as directed.
> 
> 
> 
> I definitely think they're going to nerf the shit out of the late areas of this game when more people get to these end-game areas. I have been looking at completion rates on boss achievements - it's like 10% all the way through flame giant but like .7% for actually beating the game. There's precedent for area nerfs, I know they nerfed the shit out of caster damage in Shrine of Amana and I heard they nerfed the Ringed City DLC archers and angels somehow (not sure how). But yeah, there's a very hard diminishing returns on any actual defense and damage at some point, and I've reached it, so if enemies are still absolutely obscene they're never going to get doable with the game tuned as it is right now.
> 
> I did find the Comet Azur kamehamahemaaha spell accidentally yesterday when exploring the basin around volcano manor, so if I do go 60 int right now maybe I could cheese my way through the awful sections before they inevitably nerf that spell! To go int, I'll need a couple more ancient somber dragon smithing stones (one for a staff, one for the katana). Unfortunately I think all others are locked behind these nasty areas. But, +9 is probably high enough!



I know this is old now, but find the frenzied burst spell. Scales with faith and it’s like a sniper rifle


----------



## wankerness

So, they patched the game yesterday to add map icons for npcs, nerf hoarfrost stomp, and nerf a couple major pvp exploits (one involving giving your character a death aura). Also they added a lot more smithing stones in the early game. I haven’t played much, but there were some 1 and 2 stones on the first traveling merchant I found. Good!!

Oh, and they nerfed mimic tear. I haven’t tested it yet, but it was needed. Maybe there will finally be a reason to use a different summon! 

I’m still not going back to my main character till they fix the mausoleum glitch, I don’t want to miss out on a duplication by rushing to ng+!


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> I know this is old now, but find the frenzied burst spell. Scales with faith and it’s like a sniper rifle


Huh. I had that spell and heard it was good but I never once tried using it from more than 20 yds from the enemy. So it's longer range than lightning spear? I wish I'd known that before going through Haligtree. I thought I had to respec int (which worked fine, I basically just was blowing guys away with Loretta's Greatbow) to be able to kill those bubble-blowing assholes.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> So, they patched the game yesterday to add map icons for npcs, nerf hoarfrost stomp, and nerf a couple major pvp exploits (one involving giving your character a death aura). Also they added a lot more smithing stones in the early game. I haven’t played much, but there were some 1 and 2 stones on the first traveling merchant I found. Good!!
> 
> Oh, and they nerfed mimic tear. I haven’t tested it yet, but it was needed. Maybe there will finally be a reason to use a different summon!
> 
> I’m still not going back to my main character till they fix the mausoleum glitch, I don’t want to miss out on a duplication by rushing to ng+!



I saw the nicely updated map. That is quite helpful. Smithing stones was also badly needed, though I haven't actually noticed anything yet.

And they nerfed mimic? Really? I just beat the boss with mimic's help, and it seemed damn powerful to me!


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> I saw the nicely updated map. That is quite helpful. Smithing stones was also badly needed, though I haven't actually noticed anything yet.
> 
> And they nerfed mimic? Really? I just beat the boss with mimic's help, and it seemed damn powerful to me!


They cut its damage down quite a bit, I guess. Survivability I think is unchanged, though, which tends to be the important thing unless you're really bad at doing damage and were letting it basically solo bosses.

Just read they stealth-nerfed Blasphemous Blade's weapon art by like 35%!!! Glad I beat Melania before the nerf.

Moonveil also was stealth-nerfed but it sounds like all they really did was massively decrease the poise damage on its weapon art. So, if you were dependent on it for staggering bosses almost instantly you're in trouble, but the damage is still just as nuts.

EDIT: Wow, they made the sell prices on regular smithing stones from the hold vendor radically lower. That's a VERY positive change. Now it's more in-line to upgrade a regular weapon and a unique weapon.

I'm going through as a strength build now. Seems kind of frustrating. What's definitely noticeable is that R1s totally suck in this game, if I do a lot of jumping R2s on bosses I can chunk them pretty fast, but R1s are basically tickling them. I think maybe I'll try and use this Grafted Greatsword soon. I'm several hours in, cleared Castle Morne but haven't touched Stormveil yet. So far just been using the Battle Hammer (which has garbage range and it's putting me off continuing to use it) and the longsword (piddly damage but very easy to use).


----------



## Flappydoodle

I'm not finished the game yet, but I'm at the point where I'm very close. My review, including spoilers:

I think it's the best yet in the From catalogue. Second place is Bloodborne. The sheer size, depth of mechanics, number of secrets, and enjoyment of first playthrough is off the charts.

It definitely isn't perfect. Graphical glitches are distracting at times. And open world will never have the same amount of "control" as something like DS or Bloodborne. You can easily get into higher level areas and be overwhelmed, or you find some dungeon later in the game and one-shot the boss.

Another complain is the upgrading. There are SO many spirit summons. I'd love to try them, but those plants are rare, so realistically I can only level up 2 summons. At level 1 they're basically useless once you leave the starting area. Same for weapons - tons of weapons but scare upgrade materials. Even now, I can only get to +6 with somber and +18 with regular from the shop. I'm obviously missing two ball bearings somewhere. I have an enormous inventory of weapons now, but only one special at +10 and a regular at +22. Especially a shame since damage seems WAY more influenced by weapon level than character level.

However, I think they've done an awesome job of providing an authentic "souls" experience while also making the game WAY more accessible. There are few actual gate-keeper bosses. For example, I accidentally bypassed the first major boss entirely just by exploring. Think how many people got absolutely stone-walled by Gascoine in BB, or O&S in DS1. Elden Ring really rewards you for exploring. Near some very difficult boss that uses a lot of fire I found a dungeon with a fire protection spell.

You have a lot of freedom in how you play. If you want to go naked with an ultra great sword and rely on dodging, you can. If you want to go Havel style, you can. Dex works well. Magic works well. And hybrid builds finally make sense, like STR/FAI or DEX/INT so you can add spell-based buffs and have ranged attacks. This means the "hardcore" type DS1 players will be happy. I've already seen some people doing level 1 runs. There are plenty of familiar things - big poison swamps, walking on rafters, enemies pushing you off edges, ambushes, invasions, consumable souls, boss souls etc. We can all feel "at home" quickly.

The summons are really cool and can be helpful, or detrimental, to the fight. There are TONS of buffs now, including the exalted flesh, prawns etc. That's more Sekiro style with the sugars. I know it's been around since DS1 with green blossoms etc, but they feel more like things you should actually use this time around. Same for Rune Arcs. They're rare, but not super rare that you end up finishing the game never using them.

The "guidance by grace" system is really well done, and it gives you a direction to go without directly giving you waypoints. It's helped me a bunch of times where I'd bee around an area and couldn't quite figure out where to go. It wouldn't be "Souls" if you just had waypoint markers, but they also can't literally set you out in the world with zero instruction. So I think this was a really nice balance. Interconnectivity is also really cool. Sometimes I'm coming out of an area and I see messages from other players who were clearly heading in.

Combat wise, this is the deepest yet. The moveset for every weapon has a lot of diversity. R1, R2, charged R2, crouch attacks, running attack R1/R2, backstep R1, backstep R1, jump attacks. Then there are 1 and 2 handed versions. And weapon arts. And again, the gameplay seems to lend itself to you actually using all of those. Sometimes you can dodge by jumping over an attack, then attack on the landing (obviously taken from Sekiro). I never used those fancy 2-hand weapon art things in DS3, but in Elden Ring they feel better integrated and you can swap them around for whatever area you're in.

Finally, I'm staggered by the SIZE of the game. You go through a massive area, then find a dungeon. Finish dungeon, then emerge into another massive area. That's not including the "other" area. They're all challenging in different ways, and I like that they are "themed" so there's a magic area, a poison area etc, just like Dark Souls games. There's no brutal area existing just to punish you like Blighttown or the massive poison swamp in Demon Souls.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> They cut its damage down quite a bit, I guess. Survivability I think is unchanged, though, which tends to be the important thing unless you're really bad at doing damage and were letting it basically solo bosses.
> 
> Just read they stealth-nerfed Blasphemous Blade's weapon art by like 35%!!! Glad I beat Melania before the nerf.



Oh no. End game is going to be tougher for me, haha. I've been using mimic and that weapon art quite a bit!


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> There's no brutal area existing just to punish you like Blighttown or the massive poison swamp in Demon Souls.


Uh, I'd argue the beginning of the haligtree is far worse than either of those and the lake of rot is also arguably worse since the build-up/damage from the poison is higher than either of those zones plus it's completely impossible to not trigger it until you've raised a lot of platforms.

And that lake of rot is downright nice compared to the pond where you have to fight the erdtree avatar late in Haligtree 

Crumbling Farum also is pretty brutal but at least you can avoid the worst section of it entirely (the wormface area).


----------



## Jake

I haven't noticed any change with the blasphemous blade and I've been using it as my primary. Any details on what they allegedly changed?


----------



## Mathemagician

Is that why I was dumped out for an update around 10pm last night? Ok cool that they made it a bit easier to upgrade weapons. Still fishing for my first Somber +6, and the summon I use the most right now is the two arrow marionettes. I like to run to the far side from them which forces a boss to waste time running between myself and them while getting stun locked by my big purple balls.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Mathemagician said:


> Is that why I was dumped out for an update around 10pm last night? Ok cool that they made it a bit easier to upgrade weapons. Still fishing for my first Somber +6, and the summon I use the most right now is the two arrow marionettes. I like to run to the far side from them which forces a boss to waste time running between myself and them while getting stun locked by my big purple balls.


Those skeleton archers are amazing. They don’t do mega damage but they really stunlock a lot of bosses. Or because of the constant attacks, the boss gets stuck switching aggro.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Uh, I'd argue the beginning of the haligtree is far worse than either of those and the lake of rot is also arguably worse since the build-up/damage from the poison is higher than either of those zones plus it's completely impossible to not trigger it until you've raised a lot of platforms.
> 
> And that lake of rot is downright nice compared to the pond where you have to fight the erdtree avatar late in Haligtree
> 
> Crumbling Farum also is pretty brutal but at least you can avoid the worst section of it entirely (the wormface area).


Haha oh no. Those are the two areas I’m just getting into now. Maybe I spoke too soon?

DS1 was brutal though, since visiting the poison swamp was required early game to get to Quelag. And god forbid if you didn’t have the master key to go in the back. Having to descend right through blighttown was so cruel for new players LOL.

At least this time they let you build a strong character, access all the various protective spells and potions, and learn the mechanics. Oh, and the frame rate is higher than 10fps hahaha


----------



## Empryrean

Tree said:


> Nothing important to say, but holy shit do spell buffs last a long time in this game! I just got and used Order's Blade for the first time and was so surprised. 1.5 minutes of buffed damage is NUTS!
> 
> I guess it won't be broken and game breaking for PVP since AFAIK there aren't any true combos anymore due to the way the game handles hit stun, but damn I can imagine this is capable of really neutering some bosses if any have specific elemental weaknesses.


Conversely I'd like to add that the blackflame blade is by far the worst weapon buff in the game lasting about 6 seconds, it has to be a bug or something cause I got respecced and fully upgraded the godslayer seal to be an awesome blackflame paladin and uh.. I think im gonna respec again


----------



## Flappydoodle

I think Blasphemous Blade weapon art has been nerfed a bit. Nothing like 30% though. 

I tested on some groups of mobs. Seems like close up damage is unchanged. Still hitting for 1,900 with 50 STR and 50 FAI. But the damage decreases much more significantly with distance now. Before I’m pretty sure it was uniform for the entire length of the flame. So the dudes at the tail end are taking around 1,000 damage now.


----------



## Jake

Flappydoodle said:


> I think Blasphemous Blade weapon art has been nerfed a bit. Nothing like 30% though.
> 
> I tested on some groups of mobs. Seems like close up damage is unchanged. Still hitting for 1,900 with 50 STR and 50 FAI. But the damage decreases much more significantly with distance now. Before I’m pretty sure it was uniform for the entire length of the flame. So the dudes at the tail end are taking around 1,000 damage now.


This makes sense why I'm not seeing any change then lol. I'm a maniac who only uses it up close. 

Hit level 120 last night. I'm at the


Spoiler: Spoiler 



Flame Giant right now so once I do that I'm headed to crumblinb Farum Azula


 but until then, I'm gonna take my time to go back and complete all the areas and things I just skipped past in the start. Starting with bullying all the bosses I said "maybe later" too lol 

Killed the dual Tree Sentinels last night- was hitting them for basically 1/4 health per hit so I'd say the fights have evened out a bit


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> I think Blasphemous Blade weapon art has been nerfed a bit. Nothing like 30% though.
> 
> I tested on some groups of mobs. Seems like close up damage is unchanged. Still hitting for 1,900 with 50 STR and 50 FAI. But the damage decreases much more significantly with distance now. Before I’m pretty sure it was uniform for the entire length of the flame. So the dudes at the tail end are taking around 1,000 damage now.


Yeah, that sounds like it must be the nerf alright. I haven't played that character since the patch. So your experience is it's a MORE than 30% nerf, but only from distance!!

The thing was so good largely because you could use it on those sorts of infuriating bosses with adds or O&S style and hit both of them at once for massive damage from outside of their melee range. Like, I 2-shot Niall's adds from about 30 yds away with 2 casts. Sounds like that's been nerfed pretty hard. Fair enough!!

I'm playing through on a strength build now. It's been an interesting experience. I've been flipping between weapons. At this point I'm mostly switching between a nightrider glaive (from that nightwatch world boss in liurnia) and the brick hammer (from the sneaky path in Stormveil). I had the experience of rushing in and smashing Margit in one try without using an ash and only healing once or twice, but Godrick was still pretty rough thanks to his INSANE delays and gigantic AOEs (died 2 or 3 times). Cleared out the Weeping Peninsula castle (easy) and the Liurnia of the Lakes extended mine dungeon that ends with the magma wyrm and the passage to Altus (less easy). I have two more weapons semi-upgraded that I want to try - one being the bloodhound curved greatsword which is supposedly OP but unfortunately is more of a quality build weapon, and the Greatsword from a chest. I have that legendary grafted greatsword thing but it seems like everyone online thinks it sucks, plus I'm not quite to 40 strength yet. Right now, I'm at 30 vit/13 end/36 str/17 dex, definitely need to start putting some points into mind cause right now the wolves take out all my mana and this go-round I'd like to experiment with summons that aren't the mimic tear.

I beat the Wyrm boss twice now, first in the mini-dungeon in Caelid form and then in the Liurnia Ravine, and he absolutely sucked both times as melee. I don't have the option to back out and spam lightning bolts at his face when things get hairy, and the camera completely can't handle his second phase when he's standing straight up unless I'm really far away from him. It got VERY frustrating. Took about 5 or 6 tries for the Liurnia one and a few for the Caelid one. Though I did make the mistake of trying with summons the first couple times in Liurnia, that definitely made it harder. Today I guess I'll go for the main Liurnia dungeon and the Manor. I was beelining for the Altus plateau so I could get the bell bearing for smithing stone [3] cause those goddam things are such an incredible rarity compared to 4 and 5 and I wanted to try out some different weapons. So, I have everything I want to try upgraded to +12 pretty much. I am REALLY liking the huge reduction to smithing stone cost from vendors.

It's also weird that there are no uniques that are any good yet for pure strength.

The Brick Hammer is really fun with invaders. Pretty much just jump attack with R2 to stagger them out of anything they're trying to do and then hit them with a couple R1s, repeat a couple times, they usually die before they can heal. It's also been REALLY nice in mines since it does full damage to those rock miner guys and to those crystalline bosses. Only problem with it is the range kinda sucks, but oh well, the glaive just has to come out whenever I'm dealing with flying things. I think next priority will be level endurance a lot so I can actually hold both at once.

I found out about the suicidal bird farm yesterday. I also did the quest to get the fingers. That was amusing, you have to invade 3 players, I killed one only to find out it was a group of three guys in matching samurai costumes all with names from samurai movies that honorably were fighting invaders 1v1 each at a time, which I thought was just adorable, and the second guy killed me. The second was fighting that death bird in Liurnia and got killed without me getting within 50 yards of him. The third parried my first attack, hit me with a critical for 90% of my health, and then quickly finished me off and teabagged me. Hey, fair enough, he didn't cheese. After that pvp fun, I went back and stomped the opening game boss, got the item that teleports you straight to Mogh-land, and then I died a few times rushing back to the first Grace point in the level, but I tried it out a few times. It's pretty funny, and gives you about 11.5k every 15 seconds. I'm surprised they didn't nerf that. I mean, they don't tend to nerf soul farms in other souls games and I wouldn't expect them to nerf the other one that that grace point with the huge crowd of little dudes, but this particular one with the bird seems like an error that would be easily fixed with either a slight tweak to AI or putting an invisible wall there or something. Ah well. I've decided I'm not going to use it unless I need to quickly farm to buy stuff off a vendor, no cheesing my actual character leveling, just time saving on weapon upgrading!


----------



## Flappydoodle

Sounds fun. I’m still going with my first playthrough. Around 90 hours now! Still finding new things and new areas. I’m looking forward to trying something totally different for my second playthrough. 

Grafted greatsword definitely doesn’t suck. One of the best Souls guys, LobosJr, used it for his entire first playthrough. Maybe there are better greatswords, but grafted is definitely good enough to complete the game. 

I’d been using the Morningstar. It does blunt damage, so good in mines like the hammer. But it ALSO does bleed! It’s really good against giants, dragons etc because you hit them a bunch of times and take off a big chunk of health. I turned it to ‘heavy’ so it would scale with strength and it works awesome. Only problem is the short range.


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> Sounds fun. I’m still going with my first playthrough. Around 90 hours now! Still finding new things and new areas. I’m looking forward to trying something totally different for my second playthrough.
> 
> Grafted greatsword definitely doesn’t suck. One of the best Souls guys, LobosJr, used it for his entire first playthrough. Maybe there are better greatswords, but grafted is definitely good enough to complete the game.
> 
> I’d been using the Morningstar. It does blunt damage, so good in mines like the hammer. But it ALSO does bleed! It’s really good against giants, dragons etc because you hit them a bunch of times and take off a big chunk of health. I turned it to ‘heavy’ so it would scale with strength and it works awesome. Only problem is the short range.


Oh, that's interesting. I read about the flail that scales with str that does bleed damage that comes from some specific pumpkinhead mobs, but I haven't worked up the will to farm it since the drop rate's like 1% and they're always in the midst of a lot of other enemies. I'm definitely missing the bleed damage so far on this character. I had to switch to a frickin SHIELD that does bleed damage to kill that one mega-dragon in Caelid since none of the weapons I had with bleed were usable with my 13 dex at the time. No one mentioned the morningstar in posts about good starting weapons, but sounds like it might be decent. 

I used that for a long time on my first DS1 playthrough as my "blessed" weapon and it was kind of terrible in that form, like a mace with reduced damage.


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> Haha oh no. Those are the two areas I’m just getting into now. Maybe I spoke too soon?
> 
> DS1 was brutal though, since visiting the poison swamp was required early game to get to Quelag. And god forbid if you didn’t have the master key to go in the back. Having to descend right through blighttown was so cruel for new players LOL.
> 
> At least this time they let you build a strong character, access all the various protective spells and potions, and learn the mechanics. Oh, and the frame rate is higher than 10fps hahaha


The ONLY thing worse about the poison swamp in DS1 is what happens if you don't get the ring from the asylum that makes it so you can actually walk on the slime. The poison damage is a total joke compared to the rot lake, which does damage about equivalent to Toxic from DS1.

I have only played the Demon's Souls remake so I didn't get to experience the OG version of the poison swamp where you had no option for a rusted iron ring equivalent.

This game has a real dearth of poison healing items, every time I've gotten poisoned I've quickly looked for the poison-clearning boluses, realized I had none, and gone SHIT and just had to deal with healing the stupid debuffs for five minutes. Obviously not an option with Rot since you'd run out of flasks and health, so make sure you stock up first. I don't even know how to farm them. Guessing some vendor has them or you can craft them? DS1 was very nice in that one regard with how you could just farm those plant guys and they'd drop them like crazy.


----------



## Empryrean

wankerness said:


> The ONLY thing worse about the poison swamp in DS1 is what happens if you don't get the ring from the asylum that makes it so you can actually walk on the slime. The poison damage is a total joke compared to the rot lake, which does damage about equivalent to Toxic from DS1.
> 
> I have only played the Demon's Souls remake so I didn't get to experience the OG version of the poison swamp where you had no option for a rusted iron ring equivalent.
> 
> This game has a real dearth of poison healing items, every time I've gotten poisoned I've quickly looked for the poison-clearning boluses, realized I had none, and gone SHIT and just had to deal with healing the stupid debuffs for five minutes. Obviously not an option with Rot since you'd run out of flasks and health, so make sure you stock up first. I don't even know how to farm them. Guessing some vendor has them or you can craft them? DS1 was very nice in that one regard with how you could just farm those plant guys and they'd drop them like crazy.


It's also super helpful if you use bloodhound step or maybe even quickstep through the lava/rot areas as they slow you down and rolling only makes things worse


----------



## Mathemagician

Man I was just Pebblin’ errthang. From the update I now have a reason to use other spells. I had like ~130FP and frankly didn’t feel the investment to use other spells more was worth it. Now however I can use glintshard comet and it was worth getting up to ~28 Min (~168 FP) funny how that works.


----------



## wankerness

My favorite change in the patch is that if you’re blocking with a shield and read a message it doesn’t cancel your block anymore. That was infuriating before when I’d read a message, not stop holding L1, and then get nailed with an arrow cause I’d forgotten that block had been cancelled by reading!

This strength build is good for some things. I beat radahn first try without any poison, rot, ranged attacks, or ashes and only two rounds of summoning NPCs!! But it sure does suck not having a ranged ability for some stuff like those giant astral centipede laser things. And man, the rematch with Godrick in the Gaeol was even worse than the first go around. That guy is SO hard to properly dodge and if you try to block his combo he usually flings you upwards and nails you with the follow up. Was much easier when I could just run away and lightning him in the face.

Also when I encounter slimes I just have to run cause it’s insane how little damage I do. I need to get a fire weapon for such situations. Maybe I’ll enchant the long sword.

I just got a mace off a caravan that does bleed damage and can be enchanted, think I’m going to level it up next, but to do so I need to beeline for the 5/6 smithing stone bell bearing in the giant area. Guess I have to do the capital before volcano manor again!


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> My favorite change in the patch is that if you’re blocking with a shield and read a message it doesn’t cancel your block anymore. That was infuriating before when I’d read a message, not stop holding L1, and then get nailed with an arrow cause I’d forgotten that block had been cancelled by reading!
> 
> This strength build is good for some things. I beat radahn first try without any poison, rot, ranged attacks, or ashes and only two rounds of summoning NPCs!! But it sure does suck not having a ranged ability for some stuff like those giant astral centipede laser things. And man, the rematch with Godrick in the Gaeol was even worse than the first go around. That guy is SO hard to properly dodge and if you try to block his combo he usually flings you upwards and nails you with the follow up. Was much easier when I could just run away and lightning him in the face.
> 
> Also when I encounter slimes I just have to run cause it’s insane how little damage I do. I need to get a fire weapon for such situations. Maybe I’ll enchant the long sword.
> 
> I just got a mace off a caravan that does bleed damage and can be enchanted, think I’m going to level it up next, but to do so I need to beeline for the 5/6 smithing stone bell bearing in the giant area. Guess I have to do the capital before volcano manor again!



Don't forget your throwable items like firebombs! Those are good for melee players.

And I think the mace with bleed is the Morningstar that I mentioned. You find it in a carriage through the Gatefront in the starting area. That weapon got me all the way to the land of the giants region, by which point it was about +20 (but finding so many upgrade materials was very difficult).


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> Don't forget your throwable items like firebombs! Those are good for melee players.
> 
> And I think the mace with bleed is the Morningstar that I mentioned. You find it in a carriage through the Gatefront in the starting area. That weapon got me all the way to the land of the giants region, by which point it was about +20 (but finding so many upgrade materials was very difficult).


Nah, it’s a bigger, buffer version of the Morningstar called Great Stars. Came from a caravan in Altus. It’s classified as a “warhammer,” it’s pretty huge. I have it to +20 now. It’s not as satisfying to hit things with as the brickhammer, but the bleed is very nice.

Another weapon I want to try is the fallingstar beast jaw, but it has an int requirement!

Re:ranged weapons, yeah, I need to engage with the pot system. I did get a golem great bow and level that to 7, it destroys but it isn’t a good all-purpose pull things weapon. Killed that centipede meteor spamming ass in the dungeon in three hits, though. Hits for like 700 a shot with basic great arrows. I’ve mainly been using throwing daggers and darts otherwise like this is bloodborne. 

Speaking of which, I’m amused by the “page” enemies that just reuse bloodborne player models and animations.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Nah, it’s a bigger, buffer version of the Morningstar called Great Stars. Came from a caravan in Altus. It’s classified as a “warhammer,” it’s pretty huge. I have it to +20 now. It’s not as satisfying to hit things with as the brickhammer, but the bleed is very nice.
> 
> Another weapon I want to try is the fallingstar beast jaw, but it has an int requirement!
> 
> Re:ranged weapons, yeah, I need to engage with the pot system. I did get a golem great bow and level that to 7, it destroys but it isn’t a good all-purpose pull things weapon. Killed that centipede meteor spamming ass in the dungeon in three hits, though. Hits for like 700 a shot with basic great arrows. I’ve mainly been using throwing daggers and darts otherwise like this is bloodborne.
> 
> Speaking of which, I’m amused by the “page” enemies that just reuse bloodborne player models and animations.



Ooh nice, I'll have to try and find that Great Stars weapon


----------



## wankerness

On a second playthrough, I'm a LOT more impressed with the Royal Capital area. On my first playthrough I was a hybrid build that had crap survivability and thus engaging with all those knights was a death wish. On the strength build, I still have to be careful, but I can generally kill those elite knight guys without having to use a flask, and thus I feel a lot more free to explore the area. It's really cool, and I like how it blurs the lines between open world and "dungeon" since it's SO damn big. I found totally new areas in it this playthrough, while I still haven't found some I found on first playthrough. I might just be higher level, too. I think I'm about 100 now. I don't think I'm MUCH higher level, but when I can pump vitality/endurance/strength and mostly ignore the other stats it's a lot hardier than having to also do mind and focus on faith with the same amount of runes to work with.

On an eventual third and fourth playthrough I'd like to do some kind of bleed build, be it dual katanas or some kind of arcane-scaling thing like Eleonora's poleblade or Rivers of Blood since that seems really fun. I also would like to actually try leveling as a mage, I only did the mage build when I was already like level 140 and had all the overpowered gear and only used it for one major zone and a couple random small dungeons.

Did a few more sidequests that I missed on first playthrough, like the blackguard one and the snake lady one. And I actually initiated the one with the wolf archer lady this time, I didn't find her in the first playthrough till I'd missed it. Still need to find Alexander again (I did buy the oil jar recipe this time while I was in that zone). One of these playthroughs I need to help Seluvis. Fia's questline seems relatively easy to miss and that one's pretty huge in terms of unlocking content, I think I have it set up right but didn't go to the deeproot area yet. 

Finished the sidequest that they added in the patch with Nepheli/Kenneth/Gostuc, that was nice. Extra dragon smithing stones are always appreciated; I think that's the first one I could get in the game. Not that I've seen a single Smithing Stone [8] yet and thus won't be able to use it anytime soon.

I'm absolutely dreading doing that huge platforming segment at the bottom of the sewers to reach the frenzy lord/alternate deeproot entrance again. That's the worst thing in this game, besides maybe the similar platforming segment to go down the Caelid tower. Or maybe the one to go UP the Caelid tower. Or the one to get to the painting solution in Caelid. Platforming sections in general are horrible, but the long ones over fatal falls are the worst, and Caelid has those in spades. I'm frequently struck by just how much these games DO NOT respect your time. I absolutely save-scum if I'm going to have to redo 20-30 minutes of progress on a death.


----------



## stevexc

Rather than continuing on with my "Strength oh wait let's go Quality and let's use Polearms" build that was... okay at best I found a really cool Dragon/dual-wield Bleed build that I'm having fun with. Still putting it together, need another charm or two, but it's fun.


----------



## wankerness

I hit a wall with the strength build - that goddam Black Knife Alecto boss is just killing me over and over. I can often get her down to half health but then eventually she staggers me right before a blood explosion that instantly kills me since it hits for 90% health and then applies a dot and she DOES NOT STOP ATTACKING EVER AHHHHH

I get the mechanics, the fight has no second phase, it's just so unforgiving and relentless. What an obnoxious fight.

I think with the faith build I just mashed blasphemous blade weapon art and nothing else and she fell over. I need to get an iwin button on this build. Maybe I should actually put a weapon art on my weapon or shield.


----------



## stevexc

wankerness said:


> Maybe I should actually put a weapon art on my weapon or shield.



Wait, are you at least setting an affinity on your weapon? If you're running Strength, Heavy will at least boost the Strength scaling, giving you a straight raw damage increase... even if you're not using the actual skill.

Definitely having a time getting used to this dual-wield build. I keep trying to raise my shield and wind up attacking instead... not always ideal! When I remember how to play it's a fun one though. I'm using the Rotten Breath incantation, it can absolutely _tear _through bosses on occasion.


----------



## Mathemagician

I had magic on my rapier but as a mage the extra general magic damage screwed me whenever I fought a magic resistant enemy. So now it’s blood slash. Muahahaha. Fast blood application and blue missiles to the face.

Is the phalanx ash of war worth using? As in does it scale with INT?


----------



## wankerness

stevexc said:


> Wait, are you at least setting an affinity on your weapon? If you're running Strength, Heavy will at least boost the Strength scaling, giving you a straight raw damage increase... even if you're not using the actual skill.
> 
> Definitely having a time getting used to this dual-wield build. I keep trying to raise my shield and wind up attacking instead... not always ideal! When I remember how to play it's a fun one though. I'm using the Rotten Breath incantation, it can absolutely _tear _through bosses on occasion.


Yeah, I've just been using whatever dummy weapon art turned the weapon to heavy scaling. Stamp is what I had on the great stars mace, which is functionally pretty useless except for hilarious moves like hitting miriam off the balcony. What I meant was get something overpowered like hoarfrost stomp or whatever since I have the blade to put whatever scaling you want with the weapon art instead of them being tied together.

I just levelled up the Fallingstar Beast Jaw to +9 and have been screwing around with it (I'm at the minimum 20 int). The weapon art on THAT is a pretty solid downward lightning bolt much like honed bolt. I used it to take the last like 10% off of lichdragon fortisaxx. It worked well!! I think I might try this weapon out for a while. The moveset is just a lot of downward slashes, but that seems to be OK. The only real drawbacks of the weapon are that the scaling sucks (C str, C dex - I have 50 str and 18 dex!) and it's twice as heavy as the mace I was using (20 instead of 10).

I still don't have a really good strength weapon that scales with Somber stones, which is dumb, cause you can max out a somber weapon MUCH, MUCH earlier than you can a regular weapon. There's no possible way to get all the stones necessary to get to +24 until you're partway through crumbling farum, while I have the materials to get 1 weapon to +9 with somber and another to +10. I sort of get the impression none of the unique weapons are that good for a strength build, they're all hybrid things. I might level the Radahn swords cause they look fun.


----------



## wankerness

OK, the fallingstar beast jaw is overpowered in PVE at least. You can just spam the weapon art over and over, and it has really high stagger for being a spell. I annihilated the upgraded Astel boss in the tunnel in mountaintop of the giants by spamming that at his head, and nuked the blood-spamming invader in the consecrated snowfield with it as well. I will have to try it on that shitty Alecto boss and see if it works on them. If not, I'm going spear/greatshield build!!!

I want to be sure I got EVERYTHING out of the capital since I definitely missed a bunch on my first playthrough when I didn't know I'd get locked out of it, but I'm getting antsy wanting to go to Crumbling Farum so I can get the last miner's bell bearing and finally be able to upgrade all my regular weapons.


----------



## Empryrean

I just respecced to dex/arcane so I can abuse the new arcane scaling for blood stuff and I'm having a huge blast using something fast again, I played most of the time with the confessor broadsword upgraded and just switched to one of the katanas with occult scaling and the difference in damage is enormous, feels like im not running away as much just to throw incantations at mobs anymore


----------



## wankerness

Empryrean said:


> I just respecced to dex/arcane so I can abuse the new arcane scaling for blood stuff and I'm having a huge blast using something fast again, I played most of the time with the confessor broadsword upgraded and just switched to one of the katanas with occult scaling and the difference in damage is enormous, feels like im not running away as much just to throw incantations at mobs anymore


Yeah, I heard the fix to arcane scaling turned a couple particular weapons from "meh" to "unbelievably powerful, probably going to get nerfed." I think I might have to try them out before that happens. Rivers of Blood and Eleonora's Poleblade in particular. 

The boss I'm currently stuck on, Alecto, is immune to bleed, unfortunately. But I think it will be really useful on the upcoming godskin duo. I've fought those things by themselves with this strength build and it's REALLY hard. With a slow weapon you never get windows to attack them where you won't get hit in retaliation, unless you're being a coward and letting the mimic tear hold aggro. I don't think it will live through the godskin duo boss, though, so probably not an option. Dual katana sounds like it might do the trick!


----------



## Leviathus

Uggh, farming for rune arcs is such a bitch when the fucking multiplayer gives you the "connection error. returning to your world" shit every other time your mid boss fight with someone. Feel like it's been worse since the last patch, and yes i used up all my rune arcs on that redheaded....


----------



## Jake

Made it to the final boss: going to go back and do as much as I can before beating playthrough one and getting into NG+

Absolutely loving the game. Got a +25 Gargoyle Greatsword and +10 Blasphemous Blade as the main weapons I switch between and it's been fun.


----------



## wankerness

Jake said:


> Made it to the final boss: going to go back and do as much as I can before beating playthrough one and getting into NG+
> 
> Absolutely loving the game. Got a +25 Gargoyle Greatsword and +10 Blasphemous Blade as the main weapons I switch between and it's been fun.


I’d suggest beating the final boss (assuming you mean the regular one) cause it gives you the best weapon for farming in the game. This game isn’t like ds1 where beating the boss catapults you into ng+, you can free roam afterwards as much as you want.


----------



## Jake

wankerness said:


> I’d suggest beating the final boss (assuming you mean the regular one) cause it gives you the best weapon for farming in the game. This game isn’t like ds1 where beating the boss catapults you into ng+, you can free roam afterwards as much as you want.


Beat it this morning. Going to definitely continue checking off the stuff I still have to do prior to NG+ (Malenia is one) and then I'll start playthrough 2. Getting my mimic tear from +7 to +10 made a huge difference in phase 1 of the final boss. 

Finished the first playthrough at level 135 in case anyone wants to reference that. Strength and vigor really my primary attributes lol strength at 70 using greatswords.


----------



## Wc707




----------



## wankerness

Apparently strength builds with slow weapons make Malenia near-impossible, she doesn’t get interrupted fast enough to stop her bullshit and with all the dodging required plus your slow swings she easily out heals any damage you do. Respecced dual katana and beat her second try (I’d never played the build before). That probably isn’t great boss design!

I expect she’ll see a nerf, though probably the insane waterfowl dance move needs the biggest nerf of any of her bullshit. Three dives in a row where both the impact and immediate follow up for the next second can 1-shot you in a wide radius? FUN!


----------



## Leviathus

Uggh the pressure of trying to beat Malenia before they nerf her is real. Blood build with the claymore and i lost track around 60 or 70 tries, gotta be around 100 by now. Never taken me more than like 30 tries in any of these games to solo any boss. Had her 2-3 hits from death in her 2nd phase yesterday but NOPE! Pure agony.


----------



## Mathemagician

So I started exploring underground while doing Ranni’s quest. Then I found more underground. Then there was more underground.

Then there was a fucking space alien?! What the fuck why did he kamehameha me? Gave that a few shots before deciding to return later. Now exploring Leyndell city and beat the Golden Boss in the tree tower. That guy felt much more on-level difficulty wise. Shout out to the 5 great-shield ashes, lol.


----------



## wankerness

Leviathus said:


> Uggh the pressure of trying to beat Malenia before they nerf her is real. Blood build with the claymore and i lost track around 60 or 70 tries, gotta be around 100 by now. Never taken me more than like 30 tries in any of these games to solo any boss. Had her 2-3 hits from death in her 2nd phase yesterday but NOPE! Pure agony.


Yeah, that sounds really hard, but doable since the claymore's a lot faster than say, a greatsword or what I was using (Fallingstar Beast Jaw). But, still, really hard since a lot of "easy" strats for her are basically to stunlock her between you and your summon (be they ash or other player), especially in P2. I'm guessing the claymore doesn't have a lot of stagger! It was my go-to in my first DS1 playthrough so I have a lot of fondness. Used it for a playthrough in DS3, too.


----------



## Leviathus

The claymore's not so bad, and has been a souls favorite of mine for a while too. I usually get a riposte or two in phase one and doing chunky bleed damage too. Started fighting her at like lvl 163 or somethin a week ago and here i am at like 185 now still scrubbin' away lol...


----------



## Mathemagician

Just leveling my rapier and hoping I come across something else that’s cool.

Normally I Imbue it with magic, it right now it’s blood as I was running into magic resistant enemies as a mage.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Just leveling my rapier and hoping I come across something else that’s cool.
> 
> Normally I Imbue it with magic, it right now it’s blood as I was running into magic resistant enemies as a mage.


Make sure you have a backup strike weapon, or you will have a very bad time with the crystalline enemies and the gargoyle boss. I assume you're doing dex over strength? Maybe a flail or something. 

Actually I think maybe Rock Sling or whatever the sorcery is called does strike damage, so you can just spam that. Nevermind!


----------



## Mathemagician

I’m doing INT over everything else. Beat the gargoyles by launching rocks at them. And the crystalline guys have this thing where like if I chip them to 50% they suddenly take huge damage afterwards. Idk, I use the headless Lenny ash or the great shield team as decoys.

They were TOUGH tho. There does seem to be some mechanic to them that I ignored and nuked my way through.

My intent is to respect once I get ahold of DMGS. May do so in the interim since I found a cool INT sword underground.

Had the get the Carian staff to +8 before it would outscale the meteorite staff.

Edit, I think I found the new Jar quest last night. Got parried by a fucking NPC invader. Gonna come back later.


----------



## Empryrean

sad day today, boys. I made it to the end and definitely screwed up some questlines so I'll _have to play NG _to get those missing talismans . in other news I think I've gotten a pretty good hang of parrying, I wanna try focusing my next build on crit damage andstuff, anyone here have some pointers?


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I’m doing INT over everything else. Beat the gargoyles by launching rocks at them. And the crystalline guys have this thing where like if I chip them to 50% they suddenly take huge damage afterwards. Idk, I use the headless Lenny ash or the great shield team as decoys.
> 
> They were TOUGH tho. There does seem to be some mechanic to them that I ignored and nuked my way through.
> 
> My intent is to respect once I get ahold of DMGS. May do so in the interim since I found a cool INT sword underground.
> 
> Had the get the Carian staff to +8 before it would outscale the meteorite staff.
> 
> Edit, I think I found the new Jar quest last night. Got parried by a fucking NPC invader. Gonna come back later.


The Crystalline guys don't really have anything special, they're incredibly resistant to everything other than strike damage. You can kill them in seconds with a hammer or mace or rock sling or whatever. Or, you can chip away at them for a long time doing almost no damage till they have a posture break, upon which they take normal damage from all sources. When you start dealing with the trios that inflict rot you probably want to start with the rock spamming. Especially the respawning groups of them. 

If you hit them with a non-strike weapon you also have a recoil animation and lose extra stamina cause it bounces off. Same deal as those miner guys in the various mines.

I started a third playthrough, this time as samurai! I have NO interest in NG+ in this game. I am just going to leave all my characters in limbo with all the bosses dead in case DLC comes out, I don't want to screw myself over when any hypothetical DLC comes out and like the DS games is another huge difficulty spike and it's a million times harder if you do it for the first time on NG+.

Or maybe it will be like Sekiro and never get DLC, who knows. Mainly, though, there's no point whatsoever to NG+ other than increased challenge of bosses since there's no alternate loot at all. Unless you're just trying to get two of some unique weapon like rivers of blood or reduvia I guess.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> The Crystalline guys don't really have anything special, they're incredibly resistant to everything other than strike damage. You can kill them in seconds with a hammer or mace or rock sling or whatever. Or, you can chip away at them for a long time doing almost no damage till they have a posture break, upon which they take normal damage from all sources. When you start dealing with the trios that inflict rot you probably want to start with the rock spamming. Especially the respawning groups of them.
> 
> If you hit them with a non-strike weapon you also have a recoil animation and lose extra stamina cause it bounces off. Same deal as those miner guys in the various mines.
> 
> I started a third playthrough, this time as samurai! I have NO interest in NG+ in this game. I am just going to leave all my characters in limbo with all the bosses dead in case DLC comes out, I don't want to screw myself over when any hypothetical DLC comes out and like the DS games is another huge difficulty spike and it's a million times harder if you do it for the first time on NG+.
> 
> Or maybe it will be like Sekiro and never get DLC, who knows. Mainly, though, there's no point whatsoever to NG+ other than increased challenge of bosses since there's no alternate loot at all. Unless you're just trying to get two of some unique weapon like rivers of blood or reduvia I guess.


Same. I won’t go NG+ and I’ll start a new playthrough 

Almost done with my first playthrough. Doing some final exploration before the final boss. I’ve been doing a ‘casual’ playthrough with a greatsword, shield, knight armour and mid-roll. I also levelled faith for some spells. 

For the next playthrough I’m fancying a faster, more nimble character with a quick weapon. Maybe a party shield. More like Bloodborne style.


----------



## wankerness

I'm of the opinion that 12 faith is required for all builds cause of the "cure rot" spell (O Flame Cleanse Me or something? Comes from one of those fire guy camps pretty early on). This game is super stingy with poison and especially rot curing items and the debuffs last for an insane amount of time. Like, you can clear out your entire compliment of flasks just healing through poison, let alone scarlet rot which does like 3x the damage. On all three characters I went up to 10 faith almost immediately and got the "cure poison" spell from the incantation dude and the finger seal from the bell maidens. I really don't like how debuffs work in this game, it's like DS1/3 level again. DS2 was a LOT less punishing with poison, it only lasted for like 40 seconds or something. Here, you get poisoned with no cure items, you're going to be periodically healing yourself for like 4 minutes.

Been running around a lot on the samurai character, just using the uchigatana. It's up to +6 or something. As with last playthrough, I killed margit first attempt no sweat but died a few times on Godrick. That guy's swing timings are so infuriating and his combos are so unpredictable. It's like, hey, maybe he'll do a 2 hit, or ADD FIVE MORE HITS AND KILL YOU IF YOU GET STAGGERED OR KNOCKED DOWN BY ONE IN THE CHAIN ARGH. But yeah, the uchi is pretty overpowered, I feel a hell of a lot more bold in going after things like giants knowing they'll get chunked by the bleed procs as long as I can get like 5-6 hits on them. I have been using the flail in mines and against the crystalline duo boss, it's not bad. I like the weapon art stunlock you can do with it. Been leveling up the longbow, too, as it is pretty invaluable when dealing with things like bats in dark caves.

I might go for one of the more colorful dex weapons instead of being a boring katana bitch. There are a lot of spears and weird curved swords that were more dex weapons than strength that I didn't get to use. I've heard that legendary spear you get from Leyndell is incredibly good, but I never used it on my previous characters cause it had a 40 dex requirement.


----------



## sakeido

imo this game falls off a cliff after the Capital. Goes from tough but fair, excluding a few fights (fucking triple Crystallian with scarlet rot fuck youuuu) to just straight up bullshit. I don't even know what attack patterns the final few bosses used, I just died in a single hit or combo to everything. So I said "fuck this," switched to wraith calling bell+carian retaliation and respec into INT, stomped every boss I had left to kill in less than two hours, and put it away. Even if I hadn't switched to cheese I would have had to respec because the final boss has 80% resistance to the element my entire build was built around.. the class too, y'know, you pick a church guy with points in faith to start? well you're gonna be screwed when you have to hit the last boss 200 times to kill them

the first three quarters was one of the best games I've ever played. So much freedom in the game world and how you approached everything, just for the endgame to roll around with such a drastic fake difficulty spike you get funneled into using mimic tear+10 and a probable respec to avoid their resistances - all that freedom evaporates. Too bad it had to end like that. The PC port is also horrific


----------



## Naxxpipe

Started the game with an intent to be a sword and board paladin character with some spells and buffs mixed in, but after the nerf of barricade shield I just got shreked by strong mobs and bosses. Switched to faith scaling dual greatswords with lots of jump attacks instead. Much more fun and aggressive playstyle! Still haven't got very far, as I'm just level 43 and starting to venture into Raya Lucaria Academy.


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> imo this game falls off a cliff after the Capital. Goes from tough but fair, excluding a few fights (fucking triple Crystallian with scarlet rot fuck youuuu) to just straight up bullshit. I don't even know what attack patterns the final few bosses used, I just died in a single hit or combo to everything. So I said "fuck this," switched to wraith calling bell+carian retaliation and respec into INT, stomped every boss I had left to kill in less than two hours, and put it away. Even if I hadn't switched to cheese I would have had to respec because the final boss has 80% resistance to the element my entire build was built around.. the class too, y'know, you pick a church guy with points in faith to start? well you're gonna be screwed when you have to hit the last boss 200 times to kill them
> 
> the first three quarters was one of the best games I've ever played. So much freedom in the game world and how you approached everything, just for the endgame to roll around with such a drastic fake difficulty spike you get funneled into using mimic tear+10 and a probable respec to avoid their resistances - all that freedom evaporates. Too bad it had to end like that. The PC port is also horrific


I'm convinced they're going to heavily nerf most of the post-capital areas.

And yeah, I HATE the "final boss" proper of the game. You spend all your stamina running hundreds of yards, get one hit on him, and then he either teleports or does some huge laser AOE that requires you to run 100 yards to get out of the damage area of. Not fun at all. The phase 1 boss is a lot more fun. On playthrough 1 I was a faith build and couldn't use lightning on him cause of the resistances you mentioned, so I was stuck running up. I think I ended up just speccing into death laser and annihilating him for my first kill. On the strength build I just used a lot of jump attacks but it was really annoying with all the running, I almost never could get to him and still have any stamina remaining, and I was at like 45 endurance!!

Doing things mega out of order on my third character now. Ran around Caelid and Altus for a long time to get Eleonora's Poleblade and now am going through Raya Lucaria. This weapon's a lot of fun, but I didn't realize it was split fire/bleed damage so I'll need a backup pure physical weapon probably (I still have the Uchi, but the puny range on it pisses me off). I might do the dual-wielding twinblade build of death with the regular one enchanted as frost.

Eventually I want to get Bolt of Gransax and try that out, but actually progressing through the capital is a LONGGGG way off.


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> I'm convinced they're going to heavily nerf most of the post-capital areas.
> 
> And yeah, I HATE the "final boss" proper of the game. You spend all your stamina running hundreds of yards, get one hit on him, and then he either teleports or does some huge laser AOE that requires you to run 100 yards to get out of the damage area of. Not fun at all. The phase 1 boss is a lot more fun. On playthrough 1 I was a faith build and couldn't use lightning on him cause of the resistances you mentioned, so I was stuck running up. I think I ended up just speccing into death laser and annihilating him for my first kill. On the strength build I just used a lot of jump attacks but it was really annoying with all the running, I almost never could get to him and still have any stamina remaining, and I was at like 45 endurance!!
> 
> Doing things mega out of order on my third character now. Ran around Caelid and Altus for a long time to get Eleonora's Poleblade and now am going through Raya Lucaria. This weapon's a lot of fun, but I didn't realize it was split fire/bleed damage so I'll need a backup pure physical weapon probably (I still have the Uchi, but the puny range on it pisses me off). I might do the dual-wielding twinblade build of death with the regular one enchanted as frost.
> 
> Eventually I want to get Bolt of Gransax and try that out, but actually progressing through the capital is a LONGGGG way off.


the Nakakiba was a lot of fun to use. that was my Plan B weapon, to switch to when the holy resistances got too high, but I hit my frustration limit first so I went with the cheese build instead and my poor giant katana never got any love. Rivers of Blood looked tempting too. The part I don't get is that the end bosses are still vulnerable to bleed/frostbite/scarlet rot that do 15% flat damage (or more!) when they proc. You'd think holy weapons would do a lot more damage to make up for having none of that extra damage, but that's not the case... then the end bosses are highly resistant to it so even though my build was already down on damage, it gets even worse? It was frustrating to get that far then the game told me that I'd been playing it wrong the whole time. I suppose there was more I could have done to buff my weapons with weapon arts and incantations but the other weapons don't have to do any of that and will enjoy those buffs the whole fight. Later on there is no chance you're gonna be able to re-up some of this stuff in the battle. 

I'm going to be patient and wait for an update to fix the bad stuttering I was getting and hopefully rebalance the endgame. I had to get back to real life so there's lots of stuff I skipped right over - didn't do Haligtree or Mohgwyn Palace and ran through and skipped all of the mountaintop & snowfield. Not a single dungeon or anything. Still lots and lots of content left I never played through. What a game.


----------



## Leviathus

After Malenia took me a week i finally decided to try out the mimic tear for the final boss so i could finally just finish the game and start a new playthrough. A part of me wishes i woulda stuck it out with no summons but the phase 2 was something i just didn't feel like learning by that point.


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> the Nakakiba was a lot of fun to use. that was my Plan B weapon, to switch to when the holy resistances got too high, but I hit my frustration limit first so I went with the cheese build instead and my poor giant katana never got any love. Rivers of Blood looked tempting too. The part I don't get is that the end bosses are still vulnerable to bleed/frostbite/scarlet rot that do 15% flat damage (or more!) when they proc. You'd think holy weapons would do a lot more damage to make up for having none of that extra damage, but that's not the case... then the end bosses are highly resistant to it so even though my build was already down on damage, it gets even worse? It was frustrating to get that far then the game told me that I'd been playing it wrong the whole time. I suppose there was more I could have done to buff my weapons with weapon arts and incantations but the other weapons don't have to do any of that and will enjoy those buffs the whole fight. Later on there is no chance you're gonna be able to re-up some of this stuff in the battle.
> 
> I'm going to be patient and wait for an update to fix the bad stuttering I was getting and hopefully rebalance the endgame. I had to get back to real life so there's lots of stuff I skipped right over - didn't do Haligtree or Mohgwyn Palace and ran through and skipped all of the mountaintop & snowfield. Not a single dungeon or anything. Still lots and lots of content left I never played through. What a game.


Wow, you skipped some major content then. The very first section of Haligtree is pure pain and I utterly hate it, but the other like 5/6 of it is pretty good. Mogh's palace area is pretty crappy, way too many tanky rot-inflicting dogs. But yeah, definitely you should play through the whole thing once they re-balance it.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Wow, you skipped some major content then. The very first section of Haligtree is pure pain and I utterly hate it, but the other like 5/6 of it is pretty good. Mogh's palace area is pretty crappy, way too many tanky rot-inflicting dogs. But yeah, definitely you should play through the whole thing once they re-balance it.


You can get around it with various spells and talismans that decrease your sound, appearance etc. I did that, plus crouching, and you can basically get right up to the bubble blowers before they notice you. Then just hit/spell them off the edges.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Melania is such bullshit. I don’t just say that because she’s hard, but because you HAVE to fight her in a certain way. If you made your character into a well-shielded tank, you’re screwed. Her mechanics kinda invalidate lots of aspects of your build. Your stamina and shield stability is irrelevant since she’ll heal even when you block. Your vigour is basically irrelevant too because she’ll still kill you in one combo whether your vigour is 10 or 50. Same for armour - it’s totally irrelevant because she kills you so fast. Even the scarlet rot nonsense. Stack up as many resistance armours, talismans and spells as you want - doesn’t matter, you still get almost instantly rotted. 

From YouTube, it seems the only way people are beating her is with cheese/glitches, or by using nothing but parries and ripostes. So magic users are screwed, as far as I can tell. With my FAI at 50, my best (slowest to cast) spells do the same damage to her as a single R1 from a claymore or broadsword. 

I think doing a re-spec is fine. It’s part of the game. It’s a mechanic they give you and openly encourage you to use.I have 7 larval tears and I didn’t go searching for them at all. 

What isn’t fine is a boss that basically DEMANDS you respec to a very specific type of build to beat her.


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> You can get around it with various spells and talismans that decrease your sound, appearance etc. I did that, plus crouching, and you can basically get right up to the bubble blowers before they notice you. Then just hit/spell them off the edges.


My big problem with that first area is the gauntlet with the giant one that overlooks the whole area that spits clusters of 5 bubbles that will instantly kill you if you don't time your dodge right. You can either run up past him to the left and book it for the grace, having to time a lot more dodges, or you can drop down to the right and charge him, only to find that up close he's a big fan of doing this obnoxious 4-bounce move that will blow right through even a greatshield and hit you repeatedly and probably kill you instantly if you get hit with any of the first three bounces, on top of having thousands of HP. I hate that fuckin guy. Ended up farming him to get the colossal envoy horn, though!

Again having a very different experience with boss difficulty with the dex character. I died to frickin RENNALA like 6 times. I didn't die more than once to her on the first character, and didn't die at all on the second. This time, I kept getting taken from 100-0 in less than 1 second when she'd do that delayed burst thing at the same time as the twirly magic stab, which will kill you INSTANTLY if you get hit with both and the timing's whack. I got really, really annoyed. Once she also summoned a bloodhound knight, which I'd never seen before and was horrible since you couldn't just dodge it and keep attacking her like with the giant/dragon or kill it like with the wolves.

Just got the moonveil, but don't think I'll be using it any time soon since it has a 23 int requirement and I'm already thin on points with 30 vigor and 30 dex already feeling like too little, and needing considerably more arcane for blood scaling on the uchi to be a good idea.


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> Melania is such bullshit. I don’t just say that because she’s hard, but because you HAVE to fight her in a certain way. If you made your character into a well-shielded tank, you’re screwed. Her mechanics kinda invalidate lots of aspects of your build. Your stamina and shield stability is irrelevant since she’ll heal even when you block. Your vigour is basically irrelevant too because she’ll still kill you in one combo whether your vigour is 10 or 50. Same for armour - it’s totally irrelevant because she kills you so fast. Even the scarlet rot nonsense. Stack up as many resistance armours, talismans and spells as you want - doesn’t matter, you still get almost instantly rotted.
> 
> From YouTube, it seems the only way people are beating her is with cheese/glitches, or by using nothing but parries and ripostes. So magic users are screwed, as far as I can tell. With my FAI at 50, my best (slowest to cast) spells do the same damage to her as a single R1 from a claymore or broadsword.
> 
> I think doing a re-spec is fine. It’s part of the game. It’s a mechanic they give you and openly encourage you to use.I have 7 larval tears and I didn’t go searching for them at all.
> 
> What isn’t fine is a boss that basically DEMANDS you respec to a very specific type of build to beat her.


I think she's really easy with a faith build. I killed her with a faith build without ever going below 2/3 health. She died a lot faster with the katana build, but it was much more dangerous. I had like 60 faith and 23 str/dex at the time, I think.

Strategy was buff yourself and mimic tear with blessing of the erdtree, and then just do NOTHING but spam blasphemous blade weapon art over and over. She'll heal plenty off the mimic, but will get staggered a lot and you'll outdamage her health. The only time you should have to worry about dodging is right after the phase transition, just book it cause she always starts with that charge 1-shot thing. Hope you have a decent amount of mind, you will need the blasphemous blade fully upgraded, and you'll probably need a few mana flasks, but it's very low skill required.

Honestly I think there are some bosses in DS3 that similarly required specific builds. Like, good luck bashing your head against the wall with anything other than a big boop build with midir - either that or pestilent mist cheese. Anyone with light, fast, short weapons was going to have a very, VERY hard time.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> I think she's really easy with a faith build. I killed her with a faith build without ever going below 2/3 health. She died a lot faster with the katana build, but it was much more dangerous. I had like 60 faith and 23 str/dex at the time, I think.
> 
> Strategy was buff yourself and mimic tear with blessing of the erdtree, and then just do NOTHING but spam blasphemous blade weapon art over and over. She'll heal plenty off the mimic, but will get staggered a lot and you'll outdamage her health. The only time you should have to worry about dodging is right after the phase transition, just book it cause she always starts with that charge 1-shot thing. Hope you have a decent amount of mind, you will need the blasphemous blade fully upgraded, and you'll probably need a few mana flasks, but it's very low skill required.
> 
> Honestly I think there are some bosses in DS3 that similarly required specific builds. Like, good luck bashing your head against the wall with anything other than a big boop build with midir - either that or pestilent mist cheese. Anyone with light, fast, short weapons was going to have a very, VERY hard time.


I’ll try the Blasphemous blade cheese later, hehe. Thanks for the advice.


----------



## wankerness

Encountering more pure pain in this game. The twin gargoyles seem impossible without a summon as a dex build, and are still cancer without the mimic tear. I’d never took more than one or two attempts before, so this was all new to me. Their mechanics are horrible. They jump all over the place so you can never get in melee range, and half the time you do, they spam whirlwinds so you have to run out, or worse yet, spam a poison cloud that covers a HUGE radius, chain staggers and damages you while also stacking the poison debuff, and worst of all can be blown across the arena by the other gargoyle’s wings. I died like twenty times and that was with the NPC (D) summon. That’ll teach me to do them before getting the mimic tear.

The draconian tree sentinel is also a nightmare. It reminds me of that Alecto fight. Mechanics aren’t THAT hard, but you do not get any breathing room. if you make one mistake you’re probably dead. I am glad I fought him legit once just for the experience, but I’ll definitely continue cheesing on later playthroughs (or again, saving him for after the mimic tear).


----------



## Empryrean

Ah I finally gave sorceries a shot and I don't think this playstyle is for me, I'm tryin to find something different to play on NG+ and I'm glad I tried this before beginning journey 2 or I think I'd feel pretty stuck. I'm in between on going dex arcane again or just some unga bunga str build with enough faith for rocks and lightning. also gave sleep sword a try and was pretty let down that it wont help me in the sewers


----------



## MFB

I couldn't tell you the last time I posted in this thread, but I'm pretty sure the last time was around Renalla.

I've made it up to the Mountaintop of the Giants, having taken down a shit ton of bosses between now and then. Radahn, Astel, Regal Ancestor Spirit, Mimic Tear, Draconian Tree Sentinel, a couple dragons, and half a dozen tombs/catacombs bosses. I'm at level 123, with 70 STR/30 END/50 VIG.

Honestly, as good as it is, the game drops off a ledge after you beat Radahn. From that point on, you have really zero direction on where to go leading up to Nokron and even after that it's pretty scant. It'd also be nice if that after you complete an area, the grace points lose their direction or something; at this point I've forgotten any areas I found and said I'd come back to vs ones I completed and just go back to because everything sounds the same.

For Ashes, Mimic is obviously the GOAT, and I'd give #2 to Albinauric Lennetta and her heat seeking magic arrows. As long as you can keep an enemy aggro'd on you, she just keeps her distance and fucks their shit up.


----------



## AltecGreen

Flappydoodle said:


> I’ll try the Blasphemous blade cheese later, hehe. Thanks for the advice.




The Blasphemous Blade is one of the best weapons in the game and gets around the holy damage resistance isse because it is split physical and fire. If you don't like the moveset, you can always apply Ash of War to a regular weapon and choose flame art for the damage type. That also makes the weapon scale with Faith and is split physical and fire. You can use the ubiquitous Bloodhound step Ash of War for the fast dodge. There are lots of ways to defeat Malania. Sleep pots can be useful especially in the second phase. People also forget about the perfumes. Three of them are very useful. One adds insane damage reduction and very high poise at the expense of not being able to roll or move quickly. One allows you to avoid damage once and another adds a very high damage buff. 




wankerness said:


> The draconian tree sentinel is also a nightmare. It reminds me of that Alecto fight. Mechanics aren’t THAT hard, but you do not get any breathing room. if you make one mistake you’re probably dead. I am glad I fought him legit once just for the experience, but I’ll definitely continue cheesing on later playthroughs (or again, saving him for after the mimic tear).


I wonder if they patch that fight because pre-1.03, you could sneak behind the Draconic Tree Sentinel and just stand behind it and cast poison mist. Poison mist does not aggro the Draconic Tree Sentinel and it slowly dies of poison. You may need a few blue flasks since it takes many castings but you could kill it without it ever attacking. This tricks works on a lot of enemies where you can sneak behind them. It's not fast but as easy way for a low level character to defeat the enemy.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Yeah, I did eventually beat her with +10 blasphemous blade, +10 mimic and my level 180 character with 60 STR and 60 FAI, haha. I guess I just suck. 

Clearing up a few sidequests and gathering upgrade materials now. Then I’ll do the ending. 

Kinda changed my mind and I want to do NG+ with this character. I started a new playthrough as a Samurai but it’s just so weird not having some abilities, and the game is so massive I can’t remember where I found basic things.


----------



## AltecGreen

D


Flappydoodle said:


> Yeah, I did eventually beat her with +10 blasphemous blade, +10 mimic and my level 180 character with 60 STR and 60 FAI, haha. I guess I just suck.
> 
> Clearing up a few sidequests and gathering upgrade materials now. Then I’ll do the ending.
> 
> Kinda changed my mind and I want to do NG+ with this character. I started a new playthrough as a Samurai but it’s just so weird not having some abilities, and the game is so massive I can’t remember where I found basic things.


Don't feel too bad. The game can swing widely on difficulty depending on the playstyle and build. In my first run that was pre-1.03, I beat her in 45 seconds using Hoarfrost stomp and Erdtree shield spam with mimic. It was kinda of a joke. On the current NG+, I used Morgott's Cursed Sword and that fight took a little longer and five tries to get the timing down. Morgott's L2 constantly keeps her staggered. With mimic, the two of use just kept her on her ass the entire fight.


----------



## wankerness

AltecGreen said:


> The Blasphemous Blade is one of the best weapons in the game and gets around the holy damage resistance isse because it is split physical and fire. If you don't like the moveset, you can always apply Ash of War to a regular weapon and choose flame art for the damage type. That also makes the weapon scale with Faith and is split physical and fire. You can use the ubiquitous Bloodhound step Ash of War for the fast dodge. There are lots of ways to defeat Malania. Sleep pots can be useful especially in the second phase. People also forget about the perfumes. Three of them are very useful. One adds insane damage reduction and very high poise at the expense of not being able to roll or move quickly. One allows you to avoid damage once and another adds a very high damage buff.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if they patch that fight because pre-1.03, you could sneak behind the Draconic Tree Sentinel and just stand behind it and cast poison mist. Poison mist does not aggro the Draconic Tree Sentinel and it slowly dies of poison. You may need a few blue flasks since it takes many castings but you could kill it without it ever attacking. This tricks works on a lot of enemies where you can sneak behind them. It's not fast but as easy way for a low level character to defeat the enemy.


That’s exactly what I did the first two times. I’m sure it still works. The only mechanic there that is really “cheating” is the part where you have to quit out of the game while standing behind it to be able to get in range. I could see them making just getting in range of it from any direction trigger it patrolling, or something.


----------



## Choop

Me n' my mimic in the Malenia fight just a while ago.


----------



## wankerness

Apparently the nerf to Radahn was "a bug" and now he's back to the original difficulty. That should be fun for those who didn't beat him yet. I'll have to play through a fourth time to see if I can still beat him in one attempt! I think I'll try the PS4 version next to see what it's like. I remember initially idiots were saying the PS5 was "unplayable" cause the framerate wasn't locked to 60 and that thus the best version of the game was playing the PS4 version on a PS5. I'm guessing vastly increased load times will more than negate any hypothetical benefit of a slightly improved framerate!


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> Apparently the nerf to Radahn was "a bug" and now he's back to the original difficulty. That should be fun for those who didn't beat him yet. I'll have to play through a fourth time to see if I can still beat him in one attempt! I think I'll try the PS4 version next to see what it's like. I remember initially idiots were saying the PS5 was "unplayable" cause the framerate wasn't locked to 60 and that thus the best version of the game was playing the PS4 version on a PS5. I'm guessing vastly increased load times will more than negate any hypothetical benefit of a slightly improved framerate!


I have the PS4 Pro and I rarely notice framerate issues. Occasionally seen it with bats in the distance [maybe 20 torrents away (yes that's my best unit of measure right now)]. The loading times aren't _awful_, but they aren't wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am fast, either. I'd say tolerable for as loud as my PS4 Pro fires up its jet engine fan to play it.

I just got to Caelid so I will be fighting original difficulty Radahn so I can continue Rannis quest


----------



## wankerness

I got further information and apparently Radahn 3.0 reversed unintentional nerfs to his hitbox size but kept INTENTIONAL ones to his ranged damage. So, he's in the middle of the two versions.


----------



## Leviathus

Started a new int/dex playthrough to check out all these funny spells and katanas. The Uchi-g is pretty OP in this, especially the weapon art r2. Decided to skip Stormveil and head first to Burger King Magical HQ, gonna case the joint and probably beat Renalla then go back and hit Godrick with some OP blue stuff, should be fun. 

Also went back to my initial playthrough and fought the hidden boss in Farum Azula. Pretty cool, but i was definitely too over-leveled and got him on the 2nd try.


----------



## Jake

Just started NG+ at level 200. Absolutely curb stomped Margit and Godrick already and making my way towards Renalla. I only have one boss left for achievements (Fortisaxx) since I got locked out it it on my first playthrough so this time around I'm using a new build and screwing around to see just how strong I can get. This will probably be the furthest I go into NG+'s rather than making a new character which I'll probably do after this playthrough. Still loving the game.


----------



## wankerness

I started playing the PS4 version and it's pretty much indistinguishable from the PS5 version. On an SSD on my PS5, it's loading the same speed. On the PS4 pro load times are pretty comparatively bad, but still nothing crazy. Graphics barely look worse when sitting a reasonable distance from the TV, there's just a bit more pop-in and the occasional weird model glitching animation that has happened in most Fromsoft games when an enemy is really far away.


----------



## Jake

So I'm too OP. I'm already at Crumbling Farum Azula and I'm maybe 2 hours into NG+. 

Radahn nerf is very real. That man was a shell of the Radahn I fought on playthrough #1. I'm running dual hand of Malenia's: one at +10 and one at +9 (for now) and it's just demolishing everything in my path. Definitely a different vibe than the greatsword run I did the first time through.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> I started playing the PS4 version and it's pretty much indistinguishable from the PS5 version. On an SSD on my PS5, it's loading the same speed. On the PS4 pro load times are pretty comparatively bad, but still nothing crazy. Graphics barely look worse when sitting a reasonable distance from the TV, there's just a bit more pop-in and the occasional weird model glitching animation that has happened in most Fromsoft games when an enemy is really far away.


I guess that’s not surprising. This isn’t a next gen game. Demon Souls remake looks and performs much better than Elden Ring. 

That said, I’ve played Elden Ring on PS5 since launch. It looks really good. It performs solidly most of the time. Worst I’ve had are a few pop-ins. Occasional frame drops, but they’re really not disruptive. Zero actual crashes in 120 hours. Load times are super fast. Maybe 5 seconds.


----------



## wankerness

I’ve had the experience that any time I try to suspend the PS5 system with PS5 elden ring running (on the title screen, I’ve already saved and quit) my system hard crashes and has to be turned on with the power button and then rebuild the database. It’s happened at least ten times. I haven’t seen anyone else complain about this specific issue but I’ve never had it happen a single time before. I haven’t played any game other than elden ring since it came out though so maybe now it’s just a thing my system will do with everything.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> I’ve had the experience that any time I try to suspend the PS5 system with PS5 elden ring running (on the title screen, I’ve already saved and quit) my system hard crashes and has to be turned on with the power button and then rebuild the database. It’s happened at least ten times. I haven’t seen anyone else complain about this specific issue but I’ve never had it happen a single time before. I haven’t played any game other than elden ring since it came out though so maybe now it’s just a thing my system will do with everything.


How strange. I bought a PS5 specifically for Elden Ring and I really didn’t have any issues.


----------



## pahulkster

Started playing a few weeks ago. The Malenia fight is wild and currently beating me down. On a good run I'll get to about 30% of her health left in the second phase so it's definitely doable but damn. I'll still get blitzed halfway through the first phase plenty of times as well. I'm pretty sure what I have to do next is end game so I'd like to try and get this fight knocked out, but I'm not sure if it's going to happen. Think my level is 145ish, dual wield +25 katanas. This boss is minimum ten times harder than anything else I've done in the game after about 90 hours.


----------



## wankerness

pahulkster said:


> Started playing a few weeks ago. The Malenia fight is wild and currently beating me down. On a good run I'll get to about 30% of her health left in the second phase so it's definitely doable but damn. I'll still get blitzed halfway through the first phase plenty of times as well. I'm pretty sure what I have to do next is end game so I'd like to try and get this fight knocked out, but I'm not sure if it's going to happen. Think my level is 145ish, dual wield +25 katanas. This boss is minimum ten times harder than anything else I've done in the game after about 90 hours.


What is your katana setup? I annihilated her with 40 dex/55 arc and Rivers of Blood/Bloody Uchigatana (+10 and +24). I just put Sepukku on the uchigatana at the start of the fight, summoned mimic tear, and then mashed L1 to victory in about 60 seconds. I think I only really had to dodge at the phase transition.


----------



## msky

I just started playing yesterday on the ps5, having a lot of fun


----------



## pahulkster

wankerness said:


> What is your katana setup? I annihilated her with 40 dex/55 arc and Rivers of Blood/Bloody Uchigatana (+10 and +24). I just put Sepukku on the uchigatana at the start of the fight, summoned mimic tear, and then mashed L1 to victory in about 60 seconds. I think I only really had to dodge at the phase transition.


Quality. Uchi and Nagakiba, main hand Uchi using unsheathe. 55 for strength and dex, near 60 vigor. Using freeze grease and my mimic is also +10. I was using +10 Tiche because at times she will cause major damage, but it wasn't as reliable. The thing is that I get to the second phase and usually halfway through I just get one shot annihilated at some point. I have like 1900 hp, good armor, talismens etc and that shit is just frustrating beyond what I prefer to deal with in a game lol. I may do some respec stuff and try some different things. Have a buttload of weapons and materials. 

It was a fight for sure but I got through Haligtree without too much trouble. Took a break from Malenia and ran through Farum Azul with zero problems. Dusted Maliketh in about fifteen seconds. Damn boss is psyching me out or something.


----------



## MFB

MFB said:


> I couldn't tell you the last time I posted in this thread, but I'm pretty sure the last time was around Renalla.
> 
> I've made it up to the Mountaintop of the Giants, having taken down a shit ton of bosses between now and then. Radahn, Astel, Regal Ancestor Spirit, Mimic Tear, Draconian Tree Sentinel, a couple dragons, and half a dozen tombs/catacombs bosses. I'm at level 123, with 70 STR/30 END/50 VIG.
> 
> Honestly, as good as it is, the game drops off a ledge after you beat Radahn. From that point on, you have really zero direction on where to go leading up to Nokron and even after that it's pretty scant. It'd also be nice if that after you complete an area, the grace points lose their direction or something; at this point I've forgotten any areas I found and said I'd come back to vs ones I completed and just go back to because everything sounds the same.
> 
> For Ashes, Mimic is obviously the GOAT, and I'd give #2 to Albinauric Lennetta and her heat seeking magic arrows. As long as you can keep an enemy aggro'd on you, she just keeps her distance and fucks their shit up.



So I had been going around cleaning up and finishing some areas I still had after this and made it to Maliketh, honestly it's just not even really fun any more how much things ramp up between Crumbling Farum and the rest of the game. 

The Draconic Sentinel before him is still fucking me up and I'm at 55 VIG/80STR, like how much do they expect us to sink into this? His horse kills your stamina by dodging fireballs and then he's got range on you so you have to get close and block, but then you can see absolutely fuck all; then you change to phase 2 with lightning damage and it's another thing to dodge, plus don't forget if he knocks you down you can still take damage on the ground and getting up.

Malekith himself is a blur of red streaks and at this point, mimic has more of an idea what's going on than I did. I'm just trying to stay on top of the Estus and get my hits in on him when I can.


----------



## SamSam

I cleared malekith last night with 70 int, 30 dex, 42 vit_/ vig/whatever.

The sentinel outside was indeed pretty rough, I find the key with those guys is making sure you know which specific direction to roll in and then slightly adjust your timing once he lightning buffs so the iframes also cover the shock part of the attack.

Malekith took about 90 minutes, he's tough. But I'm still stuck on Malenia phase 2 which I find way worse._


----------



## narad

I feel way behind you guys. I think it's an easy game to get lost and wander around, and I was in limbo for a bit when carian manor was a bit too tough and I couldn't find the right threads of what to do next, before having a burst of tidying up old bosses and quest lines. Now I'm stuck on the fire giant, and probably trying to get Alexander the jar to assist on that, but you guys are making the prospect of the remaining game seem so unpleasant


----------



## Jake

narad said:


> I feel way behind you guys. I think it's an easy game to get lost and wander around, and I was in limbo for a bit when carian manor was a bit too tough and I couldn't find the right threads of what to do next, before having a burst of tidying up old bosses and quest lines. Now I'm stuck on the fire giant, and probably trying to get Alexander the jar to assist on that, but you guys are making the prospect of the remaining game seem so unpleasant


It's not as bad as it's being made out to be. I just finished my 2nd ending with NG+ yesterday and honestly had a much easier time the 2nd time around. I think it's just a matter of learning the fights and having enough vigor to survive a hit or two. 

I've now beaten every boss that gives an achievement. Debating if I want to try for the other endings at this point or just chill and wait for DLC, but I think that game overall is amazing.


----------



## SamSam

narad said:


> I feel way behind you guys. I think it's an easy game to get lost and wander around, and I was in limbo for a bit when carian manor was a bit too tough and I couldn't find the right threads of what to do next, before having a burst of tidying up old bosses and quest lines. Now I'm stuck on the fire giant, and probably trying to get Alexander the jar to assist on that, but you guys are making the prospect of the remaining game seem so unpleasant



Honestly bar Malenia the game so far has been easier than the other Souls games. Any time I felt I was struggling on a boss I would just summon and then stand back and watch the attacks. It was much easier to learn that way and most bosses can be overcome within a few attempts (ymmv of course). 

I didn't even get Mimic Tear until I got stuck on Malenia, I was using the jellyfish all the way up until that point!


----------



## narad

Yea, I had Mimic Tear but I was missing some gloveworts so it was stuck at +4 when I was like lev 70, and he wasn't so hot. But when I summoned him to help out with the Rykard battle I could see some potential. Some sidequests later, walking back to that battle at mimic tear +10 was much better  But my build is based around the halo scythe / I haven't ever respecced so it's not optimal but based on that, some times bosses are trivial, other times I think I'm at a pretty big disadvantage (like with the fire giant when I cant stay in range for it and it's too slow to use in a drive-by attack). I do keep coming back to it and there have been some great experiences, but I can't say I'm loving it. I'm looking forward to Triangle Strategy after this where hopefully I come back because I'm more interested in what happens next vs. solving the current boss puzzle.


----------



## Choop

Finished this yesterday for the first time -- gonna take a break from it and play something else on my large backlog, but it's an absolutely fantastic game. I was rolling with a holy build for most of the time, so at the end I did a respec to a bleed/arcane build and I dunno that it helped against the final boss a whole lot, but Godfrey/Horah Loux practically melted against the bleed build. 

I went with the Frenzied Flame ending since it seems so interesting to me, but aside from that only the Ranni ending seemed especially good. When I replay it again I'll go for that one probs.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> So I had been going around cleaning up and finishing some areas I still had after this and made it to Maliketh, honestly it's just not even really fun any more how much things ramp up between Crumbling Farum and the rest of the game.
> 
> The Draconic Sentinel before him is still fucking me up and I'm at 55 VIG/80STR, like how much do they expect us to sink into this? His horse kills your stamina by dodging fireballs and then he's got range on you so you have to get close and block, but then you can see absolutely fuck all; then you change to phase 2 with lightning damage and it's another thing to dodge, plus don't forget if he knocks you down you can still take damage on the ground and getting up.
> 
> Malekith himself is a blur of red streaks and at this point, mimic has more of an idea what's going on than I did. I'm just trying to stay on top of the Estus and get my hits in on him when I can.


Malekith does absolutely idiotic amounts of damage. It’s clearly tuned for people using mimic tear and having scads of damage cause you have to be a frickin gaming god to avoid his bullshit if he’s targeting you. You basically either get out of his phase 2 in 20 seconds and win or get practically 1-shot by some huge attack that hits you for about 45 vigor’s worth of health and also applies a rapid damage-over-time effect that kills you before you can get the flask off. FUN!

The Haligtree and Crumbling Farum are mostly pretty doable but the bosses are hideously over-tuned and a ton of the trash hits way too hard and has too much health. 

I think the game is a total masterpiece up until mountaintop of the giants and at that point I just start cruising through with the path of least resistance with the mimic tear cause otherwise it’s WAY too frustrating. I’m now at the point on my third and fourth playthroughs where I have to unlock the haligtree with that shitty beacon-lighting segment with the archers and invisible ninjas that basically 2-shot you. Blurgh.


----------



## MFB

Up until the Mountaintop of the Giants, it was my #3 FS game but now I'm like, shit I need to see how the latter half of DS2 and all of DS2 stack up against it. This one's quickly moves into almost laughable by the former bosses now turning into just normal enemies here and there high health pools to tank through; not sure what's even the point of that, like, I killed the boss dragon with his bullshit lightning, and now I can either kill this one off AGAIN or just run past him? Peace out.


----------



## wankerness

I dunno, as an experience it’s mostly much better than DS2 but I still might give the nod to that one overall for my personal favorite since none of the bosses are total cheap bullshit besides the trio of optional DLC coop bosses that are a nightmare to clear to solo. I think elden ring is closer to ds2 than any other fromsoft game which is probably part of why I like it so much. Ds2 is almost a comfort game at this point, even though I first played it less than 2 years ago.

The only things DS3 has over ER are tuning quality and brevity. Oh, and the ability to kick shields (that’s in all DS games and it’s weird it’s gone here). Unless that exists somehow in ER and I just haven’t figured it out.

There are a LOT of places where it makes more sense to run past enemies than fight them. There’s a fair amount of that in the old games, too, though. Rune rewards though are really whack. Like the dunkey video highlighted - you can hit one aoe spell on those rolly guys ad instantly get 50,000 runes, or you can fight your ass off against the crucible knight in crumbling farum for minutes and get like 2,500.


----------



## Leviathus

wankerness said:


> Oh, and the ability to kick shields (that’s in all DS games and it’s weird it’s gone here). Unless that exists somehow in ER and I just haven’t figured it out.


Kick is an ash of war now, Bernahl sells it.


----------



## pahulkster

Ended up dusting Malenia just two handing the Nagakiba with seppuku ash. Almost annoyed how easy that was after getting destroyed fifty times with my regular setup. 

Finished up everything else after that. I guess I completely cocked up the ending which I didn't even know about until looking it up after beating everything. Did the frenzied flame didn't get anything else but I know I finished some of the quests. At some point I'll try to run through NG+ and get the "real" ending if that is something you can do. I'll probably look up a checklist or something so I make sure I do things in the right order and don't miss stuff. There is no possible way to figure all of that out without a guide and reading/watching what others have done.


----------



## wankerness

pahulkster said:


> Ended up dusting Malenia just two handing the Nagakiba with seppuku ash. Almost annoyed how easy that was after getting destroyed fifty times with my regular setup.
> 
> Finished up everything else after that. I guess I completely cocked up the ending which I didn't even know about until looking it up after beating everything. Did the frenzied flame didn't get anything else but I know I finished some of the quests. At some point I'll try to run through NG+ and get the "real" ending if that is something you can do. I'll probably look up a checklist or something so I make sure I do things in the right order and don't miss stuff. There is no possible way to figure all of that out without a guide and reading/watching what others have done.


There isn't a "real" ending, there's the three main ones and two "sub" ones. Frenzied Flame one is BY FAR the most visually interesting. Ranni one's second best. Regular one is boring. I didn't do the two sub-ones (using the two mending runes you can get in the game - one from Fia after her quest and one from Goldmask IIRC). The endings are very much in line with the ones in DS3. Very vague, not much real narrative information conveyed, etc.

You should be able to get all three of the main endings without restarting your game, unless you got the Frenzied Flame "mark" before doing the last boss (that locks you out of everything else). But you can go back and get it any time, so it's easy to just save scum all the endings in a row as long as you didn't get it. The Ranni quest can be started and finished even after beating the game though apparently you might need the Turtle Pope to reset your sins if you pissed her off by siding with Seluvis or something.

At the stage in my second platinum playthrough where I'm running around stomping out dungeons and delaying the time before I have to fight Flame Giant and do the godawful Haligtree portal puzzle. The buff version of Astel in the Yelough tunnels is a serious bastard with a faith build. I think I might need to get a different weapon (been using Blasphemous Blade and the Winged Scythe the whole time - now Scythe hits like a wet noodle and Astel is pretty resistant to fire).


----------



## Mathemagician

I got to the ice area and then immediately turned around to finish other stuff. Got Ranni’s quest done and respec’d to use it. And frankly I just picked up moonveil katana at the same time and I just don’t think I have the HP/stamina to wield the DMGS well as a pure-mage build. May stick to the astral curved sword or MVK and bring them up. 

Also apparently there’s a lot of content in the Altus plateau that I seem to have skipped. So clearing that up now. I’m taking my time because I know I won’t do a second playthrough for a year or more.


----------



## pahulkster

wankerness said:


> There isn't a "real" ending, there's the three main ones and two "sub" ones. Frenzied Flame one is BY FAR the most visually interesting. Ranni one's second best. Regular one is boring. I didn't do the two sub-ones (using the two mending runes you can get in the game - one from Fia after her quest and one from Goldmask IIRC). The endings are very much in line with the ones in DS3. Very vague, not much real narrative information conveyed, etc.
> 
> You should be able to get all three of the main endings without restarting your game, unless you got the Frenzied Flame "mark" before doing the last boss (that locks you out of everything else). But you can go back and get it any time, so it's easy to just save scum all the endings in a row as long as you didn't get it. The Ranni quest can be started and finished even after beating the game though apparently you might need the Turtle Pope to reset your sins if you pissed her off by siding with Seluvis or something.
> 
> At the stage in my second platinum playthrough where I'm running around stomping out dungeons and delaying the time before I have to fight Flame Giant and do the godawful Haligtree portal puzzle. The buff version of Astel in the Yelough tunnels is a serious bastard with a faith build. I think I might need to get a different weapon (been using Blasphemous Blade and the Winged Scythe the whole time - now Scythe hits like a wet noodle and Astel is pretty resistant to fire).


Lol the second Astel was by far my longest fight. Only did it twice, but the second time was like fifteen minutes because I just could not hit the dude. 

I stuck with the Uchi for the entire game. Power stance katanas are fun. All the bigger stuff is just too slow for me, but certainly looks cool and hits hard. If I play a fresh game I will probably do some kind of arcane something or other. All the magic seems cool and fun to use but doesn't compare to just hitting something with a weapon. Same thing happened in Skyrim. I got up to 100 in every magic skill with armor that lets you infinitely cast and all the magic still sucks.

Definitely taking a break playing for now. I started NG+ and just remembering the absolute buttload of things to do kind of put me off.


----------



## ImNotAhab

So I am not a SoulsBorne person, I'm an easy/normal mode guy who enjoys the narrative/fun mechanics side of games. I like a cool story in a cool world without too much challenge so i can wonder around and take in the sights, do some fun missions, chat to NPCs or the crew and not be stressed or frustrated.
The last decade i have managed to avoid Dark Souls, Bloodborne Sekiro and the ilk because who needs that stress, right? I just did not think they would be for me so why bother? I know a decent amount about the games though from the dozens of YouTube videos essays I had watched through the years. I thought the whole premise was great in addition to the morbid to goth nouveau look anad the unflinching adherance to their design philosophy.
It was not hard to know the Elden Ring was released a while back but it was surprising how big it was. 12 Millions copies, game of the year in Q1, the best Souls game ever. So, with some extra cash and serious lack of things to play my inner monologue said "screw it, buy it, you can trade it back or sell it if you hate it.

20 + hours in.... Im have a really good bloody time.

Its a lot of fun... Im surprised a gitgood challenged individual like me is doing ok (I think!). I have beaten


Spoiler



Godrick


 and a bunch of random world bosses. I think i am enjoying this more than I could one of the other Soulsbornes is because i can play it like a JRPG. I can walk around farming enemy and level up so it becomes a little more forgiving. Elden Ring will not let you over level too much and you can get cocky and just have a bunch of enemies bring that ego back to earth.The Wolf summons are a god send too they can spam enemies so i can land a few hits and then bravely retreat.

Sure is tough though, but rarely frustrating. If i exhaust what I can do I can warp out and come back,.Im having real trouble with some


Spoiler



Knight in Raya Lucaria, screw that guy, I cant even spam him with my Wolf pack.


. 
I think I now fully appreciate what-everyone says about the deliberate design and having to adjust to its demands. I can only compare it to the combat in Doom 2016 and Doom Eternal. You have to pivot because its its own beast and victory can come down to a knife edge. I am looking forward to discovering more and I have made peace with the fact i will be dying a whole lot more.


----------



## Mathemagician

Dying is a feature. It’s part of the process. Welcome. Git gud.


----------



## narad

Counterintuitively I love that feeling when you fail on a boss and then fail again to recover your runes on the next trip. Like "there go my 35,000 runes" should feel like shit, but instead it's often like, okay, now I can relax and strategize and figure this out properly. Before then my heart's racing and I am super anxious and worked up, and generally feel pretty uncomfortable, which is often how I felt in demon's souls since you maybe had to do 5 minutes of tough running just to get the opportunity to face the boss. But in Elden Ring there's plenty of would-be-incredibly-frustrating bosses parked right outside a grace.


----------



## wankerness

Git Gud is such a bullshit, misleading motto for getting through those games. In almost all cases you don't have to "git gud," you need to figure out the strategy required for that particular boss and adjust your gear/items/strategy to work around it. You most definitely can do the same thing in Dark Souls games and Bloodborne that you can in Elden Ring and massively overlevel, it just tends to be a lot more mindnumbing since it requires grinding on specific enemies for a while since there's not the gigantic amount of content out there. Dark Souls 1/2 in particular don't require you to "git gud" unless you're playing one of those gimmick playthroughs where you don't wear armor and don't use a shield and/or don't level up. You can do just about everything in the game an "easy" way. Be that summoning, looking up boss weaknesses and using a corresponding weapon/item/spell, or just focusing on survivability stats and doing some grinding.

They're VERY friendly to people with terrible reflexes, etc as long as they're willing to learn game systems. If you use a shield, it's more about playing strategically and choosing actions based on enemy actions than it is about fast reactions, being awesome at games, etc. Patience, too, since if you have a bow you can REALLY make things easier by picking off enemies individually instead of trying to be Conan and running into crowds of enemies. Dark Souls 3 and especially Bloodborne do definitely require some faster reactions and a bit more improving at gameplay, but they're still eminently able to be played an "easy" way (most bosses have summonable NPCs available, most bosses have weaknesses that can be exploited, etc).

Sekiro's the only game where the "git gud" philosophy is actually required.

Speaking of such things, I just killed Flame Giant in an absolutely laughable amount of time after reading he was weak to bleed and trying out the "swarm of flies" spell that I had never used before (weirdly, I'd never seen anyone suggest it online, either). Every two casts would take off like 10% of his health, and I didn't even need to be in melee range of him!! It was insane. I got through phase 2 in like 30 seconds. That's the kind of thing that Souls games always have hidden.


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Yea, I had Mimic Tear but I was missing some gloveworts so it was stuck at +4 when I was like lev 70, and he wasn't so hot. But when I summoned him to help out with the Rykard battle I could see some potential. Some sidequests later, walking back to that battle at mimic tear +10 was much better  But my build is based around the halo scythe / I haven't ever respecced so it's not optimal but based on that, some times bosses are trivial, other times I think I'm at a pretty big disadvantage (like with the fire giant when I cant stay in range for it and it's too slow to use in a drive-by attack). I do keep coming back to it and there have been some great experiences, but I can't say I'm loving it. I'm looking forward to Triangle Strategy after this where hopefully I come back because I'm more interested in what happens next vs. solving the current boss puzzle.


That's just fire giant unfortunately. You need to be on and off your horse frequently. If you stay on foot you'll never catch him. But on your horse you can't dodge roll when he shovels snow at you



SamSam said:


> I cleared malekith last night with 70 int, 30 dex, 42 vit_/ vig/whatever.
> 
> The sentinel outside was indeed pretty rough, I find the key with those guys is making sure you know which specific direction to roll in and then slightly adjust your timing once he lightning buffs so the iframes also cover the shock part of the attack.
> 
> Malekith took about 90 minutes, he's tough. But I'm still stuck on Malenia phase 2 which I find way worse._



Maliketh is super inconsistent for me. I've beaten him three times now. First time my character was about level 180 so I just steamrolled him. Next time was really hard and I was only level 70 and he'd basically always one-shot me. Problem is his AI seems so inconsistent. Phase 1 is no problem but phase 2 sometimes he's just standing there or using his very simple swipe attack where you dodge in and he misses. Sometimes he RUNS at you and he's flying around, jumping on the pillars, constantly spamming his own malenia-style attack. He sucks. But the tree sentinel outside is still harder omg.



narad said:


> I feel way behind you guys. I think it's an easy game to get lost and wander around, and I was in limbo for a bit when carian manor was a bit too tough and I couldn't find the right threads of what to do next, before having a burst of tidying up old bosses and quest lines. Now I'm stuck on the fire giant, and probably trying to get Alexander the jar to assist on that, but you guys are making the prospect of the remaining game seem so unpleasant


Yeah, there's a massive difficulty spike after fire giant. Good luck!


SamSam said:


> Honestly bar Malenia the game so far has been easier than the other Souls games. Any time I felt I was struggling on a boss I would just summon and then stand back and watch the attacks. It was much easier to learn that way and most bosses can be overcome within a few attempts (ymmv of course).
> 
> I didn't even get Mimic Tear until I got stuck on Malenia, I was using the jellyfish all the way up until that point!


It's "easier" in that it's more accessible. You can re-spec. You can explore the world and find better stuff, or grind levels. Whereas, if you were stuck on Gascoigne or Ishin, you can't your way past him. In Sekiro you can't even grind levels. 

So yes, I partly agree and I'd say Elden ring is more accessible. But even from the compulsory bosses Godfrey isn't easier than Gascoinge or Vicar Amelia. He's harder than Gargoyles, Quelag or Vordt IMO. And late game bosses like


Spoiler



Maliketh, Hora Loux, Radagon, Elden Beast


 can kill you so damn fast and they have a ton of erratic movements. It most reminds me of Orphan of Kos or similar, who is probably the hardest boss in Bloodborne.

What is easier, IMO, is that Elden ring doesn't have too many horrible, brutal areas. There's a big poison swamp, but you can mostly avoid it or ride the horse. The entire area up to Malenia is challenging, but it's also optional. There's nothing like Blighttown or The Gutter thankfully! I also think there are less insanely difficult enemies. Think about the Winter Lanterns from Bloodborne, or those purple ninja kicking guys from Sekiro.

So overall, I really think the difficulty is pretty high. It's not easy. Bosses can wreck you almost instantly. They have much more complex movesets than previous games. They can chain combos. They tend to move a lot more. They all seem to have moves specifically to punish healing, panic-rolling etc. None of them really have "blind spots" where you can sit and attack without consequence (i.e. asylum demon, stray demon, Ebrietas etc).


----------



## MFB

I didn't realize you could summon Alexander the Jar if you talked to him at Volcano Manor prior to the fight with Fire Giant, apparently it's only once you go past the fog gate that it's visible; and by that point you're just thinking "Fuck this shit ass boss fight."

I ended up posting Latenna at the back near the entrance and blitzed through his phase 1 and tried to keep him on me during Phase 2 while she just hammered him with magic arrows the whole time. Phase 2 is tricky because you have such a limited window to hit his hands.


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> That's just fire giant unfortunately. You need to be on and off your horse frequently. If you stay on foot you'll never catch him. But on your horse you can't dodge roll when he shovels snow at you
> 
> 
> 
> Maliketh is super inconsistent for me. I've beaten him three times now. First time my character was about level 180 so I just steamrolled him. Next time was really hard and I was only level 70 and he'd basically always one-shot me. Problem is his AI seems so inconsistent. Phase 1 is no problem but phase 2 sometimes he's just standing there or using his very simple swipe attack where you dodge in and he misses. Sometimes he RUNS at you and he's flying around, jumping on the pillars, constantly spamming his own malenia-style attack. He sucks. But the tree sentinel outside is still harder omg.
> 
> 
> Yeah, there's a massive difficulty spike after fire giant. Good luck!
> 
> It's "easier" in that it's more accessible. You can re-spec. You can explore the world and find better stuff, or grind levels. Whereas, if you were stuck on Gascoigne or Ishin, you can't your way past him. In Sekiro you can't even grind levels.
> 
> So yes, I partly agree and I'd say Elden ring is more accessible. But even from the compulsory bosses Godfrey isn't easier than Gascoinge or Vicar Amelia. He's harder than Gargoyles, Quelag or Vordt IMO. And late game bosses like
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Maliketh, Hora Loux, Radagon, Elden Beast
> 
> 
> can kill you so damn fast and they have a ton of erratic movements. It most reminds me of Orphan of Kos or similar, who is probably the hardest boss in Bloodborne.
> 
> What is easier, IMO, is that Elden ring doesn't have too many horrible, brutal areas. There's a big poison swamp, but you can mostly avoid it or ride the horse. The entire area up to Malenia is challenging, but it's also optional. There's nothing like Blighttown or The Gutter thankfully! I also think there are less insanely difficult enemies. Think about the Winter Lanterns from Bloodborne, or those purple ninja kicking guys from Sekiro.
> 
> So overall, I really think the difficulty is pretty high. It's not easy. Bosses can wreck you almost instantly. They have much more complex movesets than previous games. They can chain combos. They tend to move a lot more. They all seem to have moves specifically to punish healing, panic-rolling etc. None of them really have "blind spots" where you can sit and attack without consequence (i.e. asylum demon, stray demon, Ebrietas etc).


Flame Giant new strategy that is flawless is stay on horseback in phase 2 and just spam Swarm of Flies until he dies. Mimic Tear makes it even easier cause he won't be trying to hit you the whole time. It probably works for Phase 1 but I did that one normally (hacking at ankle till it breaks, then just riding circles around him swinging when I could).

I haven't tried summoning Alexander for that, but I'd imagine it would be one of those fights where a summon would make it harder since he has so much damn health that I can't imagine Alexander's piddly DPS would make up for it. Though I guess boss health buffs wouldn't matter much in a bleed strategy since that's % of health based.

RE: Accessibility, I agree that someone that is not good at video games could get pretty far in the game just by doing all the easy stuff before taking on Godrick/Margit. I also agree that they are substantially harder than "first" bosses in any other From game apart from Bloodborne. However, unlike DS games/Bloodborne, they sorta are the hardest bosses that you face in the whole game. They seem harder than later bosses cause you can't use the braindead "summon mimic tear and spam some weapon art till the boss falls over" strat that you can use on THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF OF THE GAME. The only bosses that aren't totally trivialized by Mimic Tear are the ones with GIGANTIC arenas and massive ranges that teleport all over and have huge AOE attacks like Astel or Elden Beast. That said, trash is a nightmare in this game compared to any other From game. Like, there is nothing else in the entire From catalog that comes close to areas like Moghwyn Palace, with its cavalcade of rolling fat guys that can 1-shot you if they hit you with a spiky roll at just the right time and you have to fight about 30 of them. Or the plagued birds there, or the bugged dog that can do over 11k of damage in 1 second, or those summoners that have an absolute shitton of HP and summon GIGANTIC skeletons nonstop that can 2-shot you until you kill them. It's straight-up bullshit. And you can sometimes summon the Mimic Tear to help with trash, but usually you have to contend with it on your own.

So yeah, I strongly disagree that there are no areas that are as bad as blighttown. Blighttown is kinda bad, yes, but the enemies there aren't even close to as threatening as many of the ones in random dungeons or especially in Haligtree or Crumbling Farum or Zamor Ruins or whatever. And the limited platforming in Blighttown is nowhere CLOSE to as bad as the platforming to get down to the frenzied flame door, or the platforming to get down to the base of the caelid tower, the invisible platforms in hidden path to the haligtree, etcetcetc. I don't hate anything in this game for a sustained period as much as I hate the rafter/roof segment of Anor Londo or Tomb of the Giants, though.

And yeah, the poison swamp in Caelid can be avoided with the horse, but the lake of rot? Or the pond of rot you have to fight the putrid tree spirit in for Millicent's quest? Gah.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Flame Giant new strategy that is flawless is stay on horseback in phase 2 and just spam Swarm of Flies until he dies. Mimic Tear makes it even easier cause he won't be trying to hit you the whole time. It probably works for Phase 1 but I did that one normally (hacking at ankle till it breaks, then just riding circles around him swinging when I could).
> 
> I haven't tried summoning Alexander for that, but I'd imagine it would be one of those fights where a summon would make it harder since he has so much damn health that I can't imagine Alexander's piddly DPS would make up for it. Though I guess boss health buffs wouldn't matter much in a bleed strategy since that's % of health based.
> 
> RE: Accessibility, I agree that someone that is not good at video games could get pretty far in the game just by doing all the easy stuff before taking on Godrick/Margit. I also agree that they are substantially harder than "first" bosses in any other From game apart from Bloodborne. However, unlike DS games/Bloodborne, they sorta are the hardest bosses that you face in the whole game. They seem harder than later bosses cause you can't use the braindead "summon mimic tear and spam some weapon art till the boss falls over" strat that you can use on THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF OF THE GAME. The only bosses that aren't totally trivialized by Mimic Tear are the ones with GIGANTIC arenas and massive ranges that teleport all over and have huge AOE attacks like Astel or Elden Beast. That said, trash is a nightmare in this game compared to any other From game. Like, there is nothing else in the entire From catalog that comes close to areas like Moghwyn Palace, with its cavalcade of rolling fat guys that can 1-shot you if they hit you with a spiky roll at just the right time and you have to fight about 30 of them. Or the plagued birds there, or the bugged dog that can do over 11k of damage in 1 second, or those summoners that have an absolute shitton of HP and summon GIGANTIC skeletons nonstop that can 2-shot you until you kill them. It's straight-up bullshit. And you can sometimes summon the Mimic Tear to help with trash, but usually you have to contend with it on your own.
> 
> So yeah, I strongly disagree that there are no areas that are as bad as blighttown. Blighttown is kinda bad, yes, but the enemies there aren't even close to as threatening as many of the ones in random dungeons or especially in Haligtree or Crumbling Farum or Zamor Ruins or whatever. And the limited platforming in Blighttown is nowhere CLOSE to as bad as the platforming to get down to the frenzied flame door, or the platforming to get down to the base of the caelid tower, the invisible platforms in hidden path to the haligtree, etcetcetc. I don't hate anything in this game for a sustained period as much as I hate the rafter/roof segment of Anor Londo or Tomb of the Giants, though.
> 
> And yeah, the poison swamp in Caelid can be avoided with the horse, but the lake of rot? Or the pond of rot you have to fight the putrid tree spirit in for Millicent's quest? Gah.


Actually those are good points! You're right - the Moghwyn palace area is absolutely brutal with the spawning ghost giant things and those birds. The platforming like frenzy flame door and Caelid tower was honestly ok for me - maybe because controls in ER seems more precise than previous games, and I think PS5 controller is better too. Blighttown was also super bad not really because of enemies but because of the frame rate, terrible lighting, confusing layout and general jankiness of it all. And Tomb of the Giants - I'm actually glad I'd forgotten about that place!

But you're right - I'd forgotten about some of the nastier ER areas and enemies too. I just remembered those damn wind attack knights. Hmm..

I do disagree about the late game being trivialised by Mimic and weapon art spam though. It's definitely not inherent to the game, and I think that only works if you've optimised your build, and have the specific weapons which really have that power. You told me last time to try blasphemous blade L2 spam on Melania and it absolutely worked. But you try taking her on with a sorcery build (that's what I just did) or a two-handed greatsword build and it's absolutely BRUTAL. Mimic will barely help you.

So... Elden Ring is still super difficult, haha!


----------



## narad

Alexander made the Fire Giant super easy for me, though I probably spent an hour getting him to appear there since I guess I left him in the desert of Radahn. A jar just looks like normal desert debris  But ya, for my build having a good distractor makes all the difference since my main tactic is the halo scythe special attack. For Fire Giant that didn't do too much, but basically the same strategy with black flame was enough. Now into the crumbling city and the halo scythe strategy made it pretty trivial to get around, but now I'm at Maliketh and the strategy is a terrible fit. It's pretty slow to startup. And I see now he's absorbing 80% of that attack...thought it felt especially weak.


----------



## wankerness

narad said:


> Alexander made the Fire Giant super easy for me, though I probably spent an hour getting him to appear there since I guess I left him in the desert of Radahn. A jar just looks like normal desert debris  But ya, for my build having a good distractor makes all the difference since my main tactic is the halo scythe special attack. For Fire Giant that didn't do too much, but basically the same strategy with black flame was enough. Now into the crumbling city and the halo scythe strategy made it pretty trivial to get around, but now I'm at Maliketh and the strategy is a terrible fit. It's pretty slow to startup. And I see now he's absorbing 80% of that attack...thought it felt especially weak.


Most of the last bosses are super-resistant to Holy Damage (which I think the halo scythe's beams are), so yeah you'll have to figure something else out. Bleed damage (swarm of flies) and Black Flame (it does % damage over time after the initial impact) are good backups if you're a faith build. Lightning Spear would probably take about 8 mana bars since it isn't doing any % damage. I dunno if scarlet rot (dragon breath) works on them, kinda doubt it, plus that also tends to erase your mana bar.

As a side-note, I just finally tried out the halo scythe. It's definitely fun, but the windup animation and the wonky flight path make it very hard to hit enemies through windows or other sorts of environmental things that aren't obstacles for most spells.

I just took out the Godskin Duo first try with the blasphemous blade/mimic tear bullshit, but yeah, it was scary since the mimic died at about the same time as the second dude so the third and fourth of them spawned on me with no mimic left. Had to kite them around the pillar and hit them with flames whenever there was a big opening.



Flappydoodle said:


> Actually those are good points! You're right - the Moghwyn palace area is absolutely brutal with the spawning ghost giant things and those birds. The platforming like frenzy flame door and Caelid tower was honestly ok for me - maybe because controls in ER seems more precise than previous games, and I think PS5 controller is better too. Blighttown was also super bad not really because of enemies but because of the frame rate, terrible lighting, confusing layout and general jankiness of it all. And Tomb of the Giants - I'm actually glad I'd forgotten about that place!
> 
> But you're right - I'd forgotten about some of the nastier ER areas and enemies too. I just remembered those damn wind attack knights. Hmm..
> 
> I do disagree about the late game being trivialised by Mimic and weapon art spam though. It's definitely not inherent to the game, and I think that only works if you've optimised your build, and have the specific weapons which really have that power. You told me last time to try blasphemous blade L2 spam on Melania and it absolutely worked. But you try taking her on with a sorcery build (that's what I just did) or a two-handed greatsword build and it's absolutely BRUTAL. Mimic will barely help you.
> 
> So... Elden Ring is still super difficult, haha!


It's not that the platforming controls are bad, it's that the jump chains are extremely precision required or you die instantly and have to restart the whole damn thing from the last checkpoint. The one to the frenzy door especially also doesn't have obvious paths of safety (the easiest one I figured out didn't have any messages on any of the platforms, weirdly). The closest comparable stuff in previous games are like, that section in Bloodborne where you have to fall down a handful of rafters, or blighttown where you can go off item-hunting and have to go over that wavery bridge. The jump controls are absolutely a lot better than any of the DS games, especially Bloodborne and DS1 with the horrible "run button is also jump" setup. Sekiro, however, is easier cause in that game if you mess up a jump it just spawns you back where you started and takes off like 33% health instead of just instantly killing you. Plus a lot of the jumps are a bit more "on rails" cause of the grappling hook often automatically shooting you onto safe footing. That said, no single jump is as bullshit as trying to get the Avelyn in the library by timing a fall off the spinning staircase or you die instantly and have to clear a bunch of trash every new attempt.

I never played the original versions of DS, I started with the remaster, so I never had to contend with Blighttown at less than 60 FPS!

It's not that mimic COMPLETELY trivializes it, but it does definitely make almost all the bosses a lot easier than any late game bosses in DS3 or BB where you couldn't use summons. Like, you still certainly have to be paying attention and you'll pretty much die instantly if you get hit by the wrong attack, but it's still vastly easier when you have an ash summon that can heal repeatedly, deals a ton of damage, and does NOT trigger the boss getting a 50% health increase like NPC summons. You can pretty much use the same strategy on everything. I definitely took a lot fewer attempts on any late-game boss in ER than I did on Godrick/Margit. But, then, I was also avoiding bashing my head against the wall and just respeccing if my build seemed like it would be extremely difficult. Ex my strength build vs Malenia, where I couldn't come close to outdamaging her healing, or my first faith character against Elden Beast, where I was basically doing no damage to him thanks to his resistances to most faith damage.


----------



## MFB

One thing I just sort of never got back to looking up, since the phrasing makes it impossible to really find the answer to: is there a way to change what your default weapon art/ash of war is? Mine is always set to be the ones that's on my shield (shield bash), which while not bad, the one on my axe is increased attacks which I'd rather use but it's only applicable if I two-hand which I hate doing.


----------



## Empryrean

MFB said:


> One thing I just sort of never got back to looking up, since the phrasing makes it impossible to really find the answer to: is there a way to change what your default weapon art/ash of war is? Mine is always set to be the ones that's on my shield (shield bash), which while not bad, the one on my axe is increased attacks which I'd rather use but it's only applicable if I two-hand which I hate doing.


afaik if your left hand weapon has an ash of war it is going to be the one that is used. this is where the ash called "no skill" comes in handy if you want to use shield + weapon but have your weapon's ash be the one that's used when you hit the ash of war button


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> One thing I just sort of never got back to looking up, since the phrasing makes it impossible to really find the answer to: is there a way to change what your default weapon art/ash of war is? Mine is always set to be the ones that's on my shield (shield bash), which while not bad, the one on my axe is increased attacks which I'd rather use but it's only applicable if I two-hand which I hate doing.


If your shield has an ash of war on it, you will ALWAYS use that unless you're 2-handing your right hand weapon. However, you can apply the ash of war called "no skill" and then you can use ashes while your shield's out. Makes things a LOT easier since arts of war do the same damage whether you're 1h or 2h.

The single thing making this and my strength build so much easier was using a shield with "no skill" as opposed to the damn jellyfish shield my first playthrough where I had to constantly be switching to 2H.


----------



## MFB

Ugh, the worst and exactly what I was afraid of; stupid left hand default ashes instead of my right, who thought that was a good idea?!


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Ugh, the worst and exactly what I was afraid of; stupid left hand default ashes instead of my right, who thought that was a good idea?!


I suspect it was an intentional balancing act cause being able to spam your offensive weapon's ash of war while blocking makes things tremendously easier than having to switch to 2H (go offensive). Combine that with barricade shield or spell reflect, and oof.


----------



## wankerness

Well, fought Elden Beast as Faith build, and it totally sucks. Radagon's a pretty serious pain in the ass, too. I went a stupid one-shot int build on my first playthrough and cheesed Radagon with the Carian Slicer glitch (see Dunkey's first Elden Ring video for this in action, I'm so amused he resorted to the exact same stuff as me his first playthrough) and then got elden beast to about 20% with the first cast of comet azur. Having to fight him "legit" is terrible when he's heavily resistant to all your stuff. I really can't express how much I hate this boss design. Any boss that constantly teleports around the room AND has monstrous AOEs that as a result has you running 4/5 of the time and totally unable to do any damage to him on the rare occasion you get in melee range due to no stamina is a terrible boss. I eventually beat him with Ancient Dragon Lightning Strike since it's a pretty big AOE and the boss is massive so it would hit him multiple times. But, I was completely out of flasks and at about 20% health for the last 30 seconds so I almost had a heart attack. He was a LOT easier on my strength/Fallingstar Beast Jaw build and especially the int build. I haven't fought him on my dex character yet, guessing I'll just be able to spam Rivers of Blood weapon art till he dies, even if he's bleed immune.

Placidusax is exactly the same bullshit, huge boss with huge aoes that is constantly flying hundreds of yards out of your range and then hitting you with huge AOEs. Fortunately he's not immune to bleed so I just spammed swarm of flies in between all his flying and teleporting and it wasn't too bad. I still hate the fight, though I like the music. Reminds me of a particular piece of the Quake soundtrack.

So, now I pretty much just have to do Haligtree for the last items (seedbed curse, the rot knight ash, the two boss trophies) and then the endings and I'll have another platinum on this game. I hate unlocking that place so much!


----------



## MFB

Haligtree is probably where I'll go instead of trying to finish Maliketh, might as well get some extra levels and gear if I can. I have both parts of the medallion I just keep forgetting to actually unlock the damn thing.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> Haligtree is probably where I'll go instead of trying to finish Maliketh, might as well get some extra levels and gear if I can. I have both parts of the medallion I just keep forgetting to actually unlock the damn thing.


Wow, so you haven't even been to the other half of the Mountaintop of the Giants? Yeah, you have a lot more content. The medallion unlocks that half of the area, and then there's a puzzle in a ruins to actually get to the haligtree - THAT'S the thing I've been putting off. It basically seems to require dying a few times.

Haligtree's FIRST section is complete and utter garbage unless you either have a greatbow or enough int for loretta's greatbow to do serious damage. After that I think it's possibly the coolest area in the game. Lots of really, really nasty enemies, though.

Maliketh is still idiotic, I highly recommend just doing a Blasphemous Blade build and just burning him down fast. His phase 2 moves are such bullshit. Like, the one where he spams a whole bunch of long-range projectiles at you, all of which inflict a serious damage-over-time effect on you even if you block them. Either you have to nail all 4 dodges perfectly or hope you don't get hit till one of the last ones or you'll probably die from the damage over time. I was at 40 vigor and it wasn't enough, even with the stupid mimic tear. Phase 2 I basically just had to hide behind pillars from him until I was sure he was aggrod on the mimic and then quick hit him with a weapon art and hide again. He only takes like 5 hits, but god, he can murder you instantly with any of his attacks.


----------



## Wc707

I messed around in Altus, but hit a git gud wall at Draconic Tree Sentinel. Just couldn't do enough damage to survive the fight, so figured I'd return to Caelid for a bit. 
Plus I progressed through the Aurizas Heros grave up until the dual Crucible Knights [fuuuuuuuck they hit like a drunk father] and backed out. Was level 80 with str/fth build rocking the Morning Star and buffs.

Defeated Radahn last night, and i am continuing to Nokron to progress Ranni and Blaidds quests.

Started Volcano Manor as well, and I'm looking forward to trying Blasphemous Blade.


----------



## MFB

Wc707 said:


> I messed around in Altus, but hit a git gud wall at Draconic Tree Sentinel. Just couldn't do enough damage to survive the fight, so figured I'd return to Caelid for a bit.
> Plus I progressed through the Aurizas Heros grave up until the dual Crucible Knights [fuuuuuuuck they hit like a drunk father] and backed out. Was level 80 with str/fth build rocking the Morning Star and buffs.
> 
> Defeated Radahn last night, and i am continuing to Nokron to progress Ranni and Blaidds quests.
> 
> Started Volcano Manor as well, and I'm looking forward to trying Blasphemous Blade.



For the boss Draconic, I was on Torrent the entire fight and with Latenna posted up just by the stake of Marika hitting him with arrows the whole time. There's like a 40% chance that strategy works depending on the boss, but when it does it feels so god damn cheap that it should be illegal


----------



## Wc707

MFB said:


> For the boss Draconic, I was on Torrent the entire fight and with Latenna posted up just by the stake of Marika hitting him with arrows the whole time. There's like a 40% chance that strategy works depending on the boss, but when it does it feels so god damn cheap that it should be illegal


Yeah, my first attempts were without spirit ashes because the other variations seemed more predictable and easier that way, but I think I'm wrong haha. I may need to try a summon. Is Latenna any good? I've been rocking Jellyfish as my aggro sponge.


----------



## MFB

She's a double-edged sword, as I've said in other posts with her, she's a turret basically and will spit out three magic arrows that follow the enemy, so you're guaranteed some hits from that as you continue to pummel away doing the larger damage; her drawback is that she will NOT move if enemies lock on to her, so it's your job to keep them aggro'd away from her for as long as you can, since she also has a smaller health pool compared to some of the other ashes.

I main'd Ancestral Follower prior to upgrading her to +10, and that dude was both long range and melee with a decent healthpool so it was a bit of a jarring experience learning that curve of how she works. Again, it's less of a "if" she works vs. "when" she works, some fights I've tried it and the boss absolutely annihilated her and I learned pretty quickly "OK, this isn't a situation for her" and then on attempt #2 it was someone else.


----------



## Wc707

MFB said:


> She's a double-edged sword, as I've said in other posts with her, she's a turret basically and will spit out three magic arrows that follow the enemy, so you're guaranteed some hits from that as you continue to pummel away doing the larger damage; her drawback is that she will NOT move if enemies lock on to her, so it's your job to keep them aggro'd away from her for as long as you can, since she also has a smaller health pool compared to some of the other ashes.
> 
> I main'd Ancestral Follower prior to upgrading her to +10, and that dude was both long range and melee with a decent healthpool so it was a bit of a jarring experience learning that curve of how she works. Again, it's less of a "if" she works vs. "when" she works, some fights I've tried it and the boss absolutely annihilated her and I learned pretty quickly "OK, this isn't a situation for her" and then on attempt #2 it was someone else.


I'll have to try experimenting and see.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Well, fought Elden Beast as Faith build, and it totally sucks. Radagon's a pretty serious pain in the ass, too. I went a stupid one-shot int build on my first playthrough and cheesed Radagon with the Carian Slicer glitch (see Dunkey's first Elden Ring video for this in action, I'm so amused he resorted to the exact same stuff as me his first playthrough) and then got elden beast to about 20% with the first cast of comet azur. Having to fight him "legit" is terrible when he's heavily resistant to all your stuff. I really can't express how much I hate this boss design. Any boss that constantly teleports around the room AND has monstrous AOEs that as a result has you running 4/5 of the time and totally unable to do any damage to him on the rare occasion you get in melee range due to no stamina is a terrible boss. I eventually beat him with Ancient Dragon Lightning Strike since it's a pretty big AOE and the boss is massive so it would hit him multiple times. But, I was completely out of flasks and at about 20% health for the last 30 seconds so I almost had a heart attack. He was a LOT easier on my strength/Fallingstar Beast Jaw build and especially the int build. I haven't fought him on my dex character yet, guessing I'll just be able to spam Rivers of Blood weapon art till he dies, even if he's bleed immune.
> 
> Placidusax is exactly the same bullshit, huge boss with huge aoes that is constantly flying hundreds of yards out of your range and then hitting you with huge AOEs. Fortunately he's not immune to bleed so I just spammed swarm of flies in between all his flying and teleporting and it wasn't too bad. I still hate the fight, though I like the music. Reminds me of a particular piece of the Quake soundtrack.
> 
> So, now I pretty much just have to do Haligtree for the last items (seedbed curse, the rot knight ash, the two boss trophies) and then the endings and I'll have another platinum on this game. I hate unlocking that place so much!



Yep. The endgame is absolutely brutal unless you have a specific type of character. Faith builds are screwed. 

I think these are the hardest final bosses of any souls game aside from Ishin.

Gwyn can be parried very easily. Nashandra isn't difficult. Gehrman can be parried and also gives you plenty of space to heal etc. Moon Presence is easy. Soul of Cinder is challenging, but he doesn't have anywhere near much bullshit as Radagon. 

Radagon poises through everything and can't be interrupted. He has tons of combos and variations thereof. He can fly across the room and close distance. He teleports almost instantly and damages you when he spawns. I've had him chain that attack 3x in a row, so you roll back and he appears right next to you again. Almost every attack of his has a wide AOE attached to it. And I feel like every single combo is specifically designed to roll-catch you. When he jumps in the air, it's exactly 3.5 rolls worth of time. If you roll once he jumps you get hit 100% of the time. Same with his 3 ground slams. The timing is like 1, 1, 1.5. 

I'm fine with the challenge, and I know he's supposed to be a god and it shouldn't be an easy fight, but it feels a little cheap unfortunately because it's like every mechanic is designed to trick you. And you're absolutely right about Elden Beast. He spends half his time just swimming away from you and spamming AOEs. He has a massive health bar, so it really becomes a long fight and I always end up making one mistake and then dead.


----------



## Flappydoodle

Or the most fun is when Elden Beast spams his big flame AOE and you try to run away, but then he also decides to swim away and in the process he blocks your escape and you get caught in the AOE and die. Just happened to me when I had his health down to about 10%.

Again, hardest final bosses of any Souls game IMO. Super variable movesets and chains of attacks. Very few breaks/pauses. They're dangerous both close up and far away. Radagon punishes the shit out of healing attempts. AOE and splash damage on most of his attacks.

Can you tell I'm annoyed, lol


----------



## narad

Wc707 said:


> I messed around in Altus, but hit a git gud wall at Draconic Tree Sentinel. Just couldn't do enough damage to survive the fight, so figured I'd return to Caelid for a bit.
> Plus I progressed through the Aurizas Heros grave up until the dual Crucible Knights [fuuuuuuuck they hit like a drunk father] and backed out. Was level 80 with str/fth build rocking the Morning Star and buffs.
> 
> Defeated Radahn last night, and i am continuing to Nokron to progress Ranni and Blaidds quests.
> 
> Started Volcano Manor as well, and I'm looking forward to trying Blasphemous Blade.



Ah yea, I hated that first draconic tree sentinel guy. Even if I was doing a great job, in phase 2 I'd get blasted by that bolt from the sky that was instant kill at that point. But after learning to dodge it I basically managed, but have to stay off the horse in phase 2. Not fun.



wankerness said:


> As a side-note, I just finally tried out the halo scythe. It's definitely fun, but the windup animation and the wonky flight path make it very hard to hit enemies through windows or other sorts of environmental things that aren't obstacles for most spells.
> 
> I just took out the Godskin Duo first try with the blasphemous blade/mimic tear bullshit, but yeah, it was scary since the mimic died at about the same time as the second dude so the third and fourth of them spawned on me with no mimic left. Had to kite them around the pillar and hit them with flames whenever there was a big opening.



Yea, the unpredictable catches on obstacles is tough. You basically need higher ground, or they'll even break on some dirt. But when they work they work really well. I don't know of any attack that strong with that much stagger you can launch as fast or as long. Like the crucible knight - even when he puts his shield up, not gonna help when he has to break against one every step towards me and I seriously launched like 15 of them before he died/reached me. The Godskin Duo was another where when I could get some initial space between the guys and the mimic supported my flank a bit, was almost trivial.

But ya, finished Maliketh. Tough fight, had to switch to black flame, but when I beat him I beat him easily. Funny how that works, just a little luck and finished with full health / tons of flasks / mimic at half health, when sometimes they would die before phase 2 if I wasn't engaged enough.

I'm having tons of trouble on that black knife fight for the tishe summon. That's exactly the type of build halo scythe sucks at, no summon. I mean I like the build, but watching youtube it seemed everyone was playing int/moonveil and I wanted to do something different. Now at endgame it seems like there's no choice but to abandon faith.


----------



## Jynx

You guys might enjoy this Elden Ring skin I got for my Quad Cortex.


----------



## Wc707

narad said:


> Ah yea, I hated that first draconic tree sentinel guy. Even if I was doing a great job, in phase 2 I'd get blasted by that bolt from the sky that was instant kill at that point. But after learning to dodge it I basically managed, but have to stay off the horse in phase 2. Not fun.


Dude that lightning bolt rocked my shit a lot!
And that damn horse fireball


----------



## narad

Yea, my sympathies. I probably spent more time on that fight than any other in the whole game. Had to learn a lot to get through it. First fight I can remember where it really gave you a dilemma as to whether you want to be on or off your horse.


----------



## wankerness

The second draconian sentinel is a hell of a lot worse due to having about 3x the health and being in an area where you can’t mount up OR use an ash. Really nasty and makes the poison mist cheese seem much more appealing.

Faith builds aren’t completely screwed on the last bosses. Blasphemous Blade weapon art spam deals fine with Malenia and Radagon (though it’s a LOT harder than it was pre-nerf), and elden beast can be taken down with ancient dragon lightning strike and jump attacks assuming you have a good weapon that doesn’t do holy damage. I’ve also heard the black blade incantation works really well on him, but I didn’t try it myself. But, elden beast was definitely A LOT easier as a comet azur build and as a cheese fallingstar beast jaw strength build. That thing’s weapon art is insanely cheap, it’s a fast-casting downward lightning bolt that’s cheaper and does a lot more stagger than any comparable spells/incantations. And it’s gravity damage, so basically nothing is strong against it.

After experimenting a bunch with some other spells, I came to the conclusion that swarm of flies is easily one of the most overpowered things in the game due to how ridiculous bleed is. Like, you can cast it on a fairly stationary enemy by just spamming it like five times from some distance away, and then all five will hit the enemy before they can react, which will prox bleed 2-3 times almost instantly and take off 1/3 of their health. That alone makes faith builds incredibly viable in the endgame, apart from the handful of bleed-immune bosses like Elden Beast.


----------



## Jynx

I'm on my fifth build in this game. I haven't taken any of them to completion yet. I'm still in the experimenting stage. 

I might just take my quality build to completion this weekend and continue experimenting into and through NG+


----------



## wankerness

Well, got the platinum for the second time this morning on my second faith character. No respecs this time! Killed everything besides a bunch of world bosses like those awful death rite birds and a bunch of dragons. 

Now I need to finish up the game on my dex/arc/katana build character (left off at mountaintop of the giants), and then I want to play through the whole game as an int build (caster primarily, but probably with moonveil like a scrub). Then I can finally be done till DLC or big updates come out! Some of the sidequests seem like they are missing a step, especially Patches' questline which ends with him just disappearing currently and the item he gives you not really doing anything to Tanith. 

It's going to be pretty hard going back to other games, I think. This just scratches so many itches. The only conceptual thing I really dislike is how stingy the game is with weapon upgrades. Like, to fully upgrade more than I think 6 unique weapons to max and 10 non-unique weapons to max you'd have to completely play through the game again all the way to the end with the bonus areas and completing NPC questlines cause there is no way to farm them or buy them at all. And the ability to buy the lower-level shards is gated behind optional content late in the game so you wouldn't even be able to upgrade many weapons past extremely low level till late in NG+ unless you bought 600 of each stone before going to NG+. Which is really dumb, since any weapon that isn't close to max is useless on NG+.


----------



## narad

wankerness said:


> The second draconian sentinel is a hell of a lot worse due to having about 3x the health and being in an area where you can’t mount up OR use an ash. Really nasty and makes the poison mist cheese seem much more appealing.
> 
> Faith builds aren’t completely screwed on the last bosses. Blasphemous Blade weapon art spam deals fine with Malenia and Radagon (though it’s a LOT harder than it was pre-nerf), and elden beast can be taken down with ancient dragon lightning strike and jump attacks assuming you have a good weapon that doesn’t do holy damage. I’ve also heard the black blade incantation works really well on him, but I didn’t try it myself. But, elden beast was definitely A LOT easier as a comet azur build and as a cheese fallingstar beast jaw strength build. That thing’s weapon art is insanely cheap, it’s a fast-casting downward lightning bolt that’s cheaper and does a lot more stagger than any comparable spells/incantations. And it’s gravity damage, so basically nothing is strong against it.
> 
> After experimenting a bunch with some other spells, I came to the conclusion that swarm of flies is easily one of the most overpowered things in the game due to how ridiculous bleed is. Like, you can cast it on a fairly stationary enemy by just spamming it like five times from some distance away, and then all five will hit the enemy before they can react, which will prox bleed 2-3 times almost instantly and take off 1/3 of their health. That alone makes faith builds incredibly viable in the endgame, apart from the handful of bleed-immune bosses like Elden Beast.



Getting that spell's been on my to-do list for a long time.


----------



## narad

Regarding going back to other games, I'm really missing a game with an ongoing story. It's funny they brought GRR on for this because I find the story so weak. The world is cool, but I think the quests are really underdeveloped, characters are very 2D existing only for the purpose of selling you something or starting some quest, that in turn only seem to exist as a hurdle to a cool item. Quests are also poorly defined. For instance, the girl who has scarlet rot, you probably have an item that you use to cure your own scarlet rot, but that's not the item you want to somehow use to save her. I'm thinking...why's this greyed out? Can I 'leave' them for her? etc.

It's a cool game. Sometimes I definitely need something to boot up with like a max play length of 2 hours before I get frustrated, avg more like 45 mins. But I miss wanting to come back to a game wondering what happens next. It was not that way with Demon's Souls either, but I thought phrasing it more as an RPG with open world exploration would naturally bring with it a richer story that you're more invested in.


----------



## wankerness

Eh, after playing Horizon Forbidden West, a game where everyone talks all the goddam time and your character audibly points out everything they see even when alone, it was a really refreshing change of pace.

I've played about three video games EVER where I actually cared about the story the whole way through and wasn't mostly just trying to skip through all the dialogue as fast as possible. Yakuza games, I usually care about maybe 3/4 of the plot, which is pretty good, but still leaves me impatient at times and the plots still tend to be trash compared to even an average movie/TV show. Maybe I'm in a minority, but with GAMES, I almost always think the less plot/exposition the better. The best thing you can hope for is usually something like the old classic Bioware games like Mass Effect trilogy or Dragon Age where the plot is garbage but you like hanging out with the characters and hearing their interactions. But even those I'd usually lose patience and start skipping through dialogue by the end.


----------



## Wc707

narad said:


> Getting that spell's been on my to-do list for a long time.


That's my next grab right after I go back to Nokron and get Mimic Tear. Got the Fingers layer blade and totally missed one of the OP summons


----------



## wankerness

Wc707 said:


> That's my next grab right after I go back to Nokron and get Mimic Tear. Got the Fingers layer blade and totally missed one of the OP summons


I missed Mimic Tear on one of my playthroughs, doing the gargoyle duo boss without it was a nightmare.

The fly swarm spell is in one of the caves towards the beginning of the mohgwyn palace area. You can get it really early game if you do the quest from white-face varre - he gives you an item that teleports you straight there, so you can get it without having killed any major bosses other than Godrick.


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> I missed Mimic Tear on one of my playthroughs, doing the gargoyle duo boss without it was a nightmare.
> 
> The fly swarm spell is in one of the caves towards the beginning of the mohgwyn palace area. You can get it really early game if you do the quest from white-face varre - he gives you an item that teleports you straight there, so you can get it without having killed any major bosses other than Godrick.


I gotta get the fly swarm since I'm str/fth. How do you get to mohgwyn palace anyway? I don't play online to do varre's quest


----------



## wankerness

Wc707 said:


> I gotta get the fly swarm since I'm str/fth. How do you get to mohgwyn palace anyway? I don't play online to do varre's quest


If you don't do varre's quest, you have to wait all the way till the end of the game and take a teleporter from the consecrated snowfield somewhere. I forget where it is exactly, I only had to use that on my first playthrough. Wiki says "by Yelough Anix ruins," which is that awful place with all the giants that spam madness aoe spells. Says it activates when you kill the sanguine noble invader that's around there.

Why do you play offline? Do you not have internet? Since you can't be invaded unless you use an item specifically opting in, it's only a positive in this game since you get all the messages, plus you can join groups which gets you +5% rune gain. I've been online 100% of the time and the only pvp I've ever done is the three invasions you have to do per playthrough for Varre's quest (and you can fail horribly at all of them and still get quest credit).


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> If you don't do varre's quest, you have to wait all the way till the end of the game and take a teleporter from the consecrated snowfield somewhere. I forget where it is exactly, I only had to use that on my first playthrough. Wiki says "by Yelough Anix ruins," which is that awful place with all the giants that spam madness aoe spells. Says it activates when you kill the sanguine noble invader that's around there.
> 
> Why do you play offline? Do you not have internet? Since you can't be invaded unless you use an item specifically opting in, it's only a positive in this game since you get all the messages, plus you can join groups which gets you +5% rune gain. I've been online 100% of the time and the only pvp I've ever done is the three invasions you have to do per playthrough for Varre's quest (and you can fail horribly at all of them and still get quest credit).


Gotcha, thanks. 

I do have internet, I just don't play enough online games to warrant paying for PS Plus subscription.


----------



## wankerness

Wc707 said:


> Gotcha, thanks.
> 
> I do have internet, I just don't play enough online games to warrant paying for PS Plus subscription.


Ah. Fair enough. I pay for it cause probably 1/3 of the games I have are contingent on my subscription remaining active. And you CAN'T buy them from the store during sales as digital if you already "own" them. :/


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> Ah. Fair enough. I pay for it cause probably 1/3 of the games I have are contingent on my subscription remaining active. And you CAN'T buy them from the store during sales as digital if you already "own" them. :/


Yeah id pony up too if I was in your position, then. 
I think it's bullshit considering all the ps3 games were free to play online and PSN existed then.
I'd play CoD, Dead Space 3, DS2, etc.
PS Play now is practically like paying for a new game [60 bucks a year, I think?] just to _play_ games you already bought.


----------



## Flappydoodle

wankerness said:


> Well, got the platinum for the second time this morning on my second faith character. No respecs this time! Killed everything besides a bunch of world bosses like those awful death rite birds and a bunch of dragons.
> 
> Now I need to finish up the game on my dex/arc/katana build character (left off at mountaintop of the giants), and then I want to play through the whole game as an int build (caster primarily, but probably with moonveil like a scrub). Then I can finally be done till DLC or big updates come out! Some of the sidequests seem like they are missing a step, especially Patches' questline which ends with him just disappearing currently and the item he gives you not really doing anything to Tanith.
> 
> It's going to be pretty hard going back to other games, I think. This just scratches so many itches. The only conceptual thing I really dislike is how stingy the game is with weapon upgrades. Like, to fully upgrade more than I think 6 unique weapons to max and 10 non-unique weapons to max you'd have to completely play through the game again all the way to the end with the bonus areas and completing NPC questlines cause there is no way to farm them or buy them at all. And the ability to buy the lower-level shards is gated behind optional content late in the game so you wouldn't even be able to upgrade many weapons past extremely low level till late in NG+ unless you bought 600 of each stone before going to NG+. Which is really dumb, since any weapon that isn't close to max is useless on NG+.



Nice. I agree that Elden Ring is so damn good in many ways. But it does need some patching and rebalancing a few aspects.

There are SO many weapons. And you can respect. But your ability to upgrade weapons is incredibly limited. That doesn't make sense to me. There's no point re-speccing into a strength build unless you can +10 your weapon.



narad said:


> Regarding going back to other games, I'm really missing a game with an ongoing story. It's funny they brought GRR on for this because I find the story so weak. The world is cool, but I think the quests are really underdeveloped, characters are very 2D existing only for the purpose of selling you something or starting some quest, that in turn only seem to exist as a hurdle to a cool item. Quests are also poorly defined. For instance, the girl who has scarlet rot, you probably have an item that you use to cure your own scarlet rot, but that's not the item you want to somehow use to save her. I'm thinking...why's this greyed out? Can I 'leave' them for her? etc.
> 
> It's a cool game. Sometimes I definitely need something to boot up with like a max play length of 2 hours before I get frustrated, avg more like 45 mins. But I miss wanting to come back to a game wondering what happens next. It was not that way with Demon's Souls either, but I thought phrasing it more as an RPG with open world exploration would naturally bring with it a richer story that you're more invested in.



I think that sort of quest has always been the From Software way though. Look at onion bro or big hat Logan from Dark Souls. Also kinda obscure but they exist to unlock cool things and learn a bit more lore later on. 

From the sounds of it you might enjoy Ghost of Tsushima. It's open world. You ride a horse. The combat is pretty good (but not as good as ER). But there's a very clearly-defined plot, some nice cutscenes, and the character progression is literally in your menu like "Kenji's tale 2/10". The story is actually really good IMO, and not as stupid as a lot of this type of game.


----------



## wankerness

narad said:


> Ah yea, I hated that first draconic tree sentinel guy. Even if I was doing a great job, in phase 2 I'd get blasted by that bolt from the sky that was instant kill at that point. But after learning to dodge it I basically managed, but have to stay off the horse in phase 2. Not fun.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, the unpredictable catches on obstacles is tough. You basically need higher ground, or they'll even break on some dirt. But when they work they work really well. I don't know of any attack that strong with that much stagger you can launch as fast or as long. Like the crucible knight - even when he puts his shield up, not gonna help when he has to break against one every step towards me and I seriously launched like 15 of them before he died/reached me. The Godskin Duo was another where when I could get some initial space between the guys and the mimic supported my flank a bit, was almost trivial.
> 
> But ya, finished Maliketh. Tough fight, had to switch to black flame, but when I beat him I beat him easily. Funny how that works, just a little luck and finished with full health / tons of flasks / mimic at half health, when sometimes they would die before phase 2 if I wasn't engaged enough.
> 
> I'm having tons of trouble on that black knife fight for the tishe summon. That's exactly the type of build halo scythe sucks at, no summon. I mean I like the build, but watching youtube it seemed everyone was playing int/moonveil and I wanted to do something different. Now at endgame it seems like there's no choice but to abandon faith.


I upgraded the halo scythe to +10 and ran around killing some world bosses with it. You’re right, it’s really good in the right circumstances. Like, if you come up on a sleeping dragon, you can spam off like seven of them before it gets out of its activation animations, and it will already be at half health. And man, it DESTROYS the goddam death rite birds. Still took me like five tries for the one in consecrated snowfield, but it does REALLY good damage and has gigantic range and is very spammable if you can get a long opening.

Black knife ringleader is consistently one of the hardest fights in the game for me. I don’t even remember how I beat it the first playthrough, I must have lucked out or something. When I tried it with the strength build I died over and over until I gave up , and came back at like level 150 with an ice ultra-greatsword and just smashed him into the ground. I had to cheese the fight on my lower level dex character and my second faith character. It’s just too frustrating and long of a fight to waste my time waiting for the tiny openings and chipping away at his health for five or more minutes when he can turn around and one shot me the second I mistime a dodge. Totally awful fight. Like malenia’s phase one if you couldn’t summon (well, and if she didn’t stagger as easily, was immune to bleed, but only did waterfowl dance once instead of three times).


----------



## pahulkster

That fight was definitely tough. Worth it for the good summon though.

I couldn't beat the bell bearing hunter at the Caelid shack. Part of that was not being able to get it to spawn consistently. Only fight in the game I bailed on. Also bailed on the Hero's Graves because fuck all of that for some random loot I'll never use or remember.


----------



## Mathemagician

I haven’t done a single heroes grave. Where red one and it was bunch of NPC’s fighting each other? Is that normal? Or are those the one with the death rolling pin? 

Either way I’ve skipped both so far.


----------



## MFB

I think all the "_____'s Grave" have the chariots that do a shit-ton of damage (supposedly there's one that you can ride down a ramp, but I never found it) and they're just sort of OK. I think I have one left to do, but they're largely not worth the loot you get in them from what I remember, I've used them more for farming. The late game one's also make use of Burial Watchdogs as common enemies, when it's like, they're not unique or interesting enemies to fight so please stop littering them in these dungeons.

I want to finish the three Great Jar Knight fights, but any time I get 2/3rds of them defeated, the last one has some bullshit he pulls and gets a win with 1/4 of his health left. I don't understand at this point, but there's no other fight I can think of that requires besting three different fighters simultaneously without resetting your flasks/summoning of some sort, so it's it's own sort of challenge.


----------



## Wc707

Defeated the valiant gargoyles last night and got their weapons. Really like the gargoyle twin blade moves and that it scales with str. Boosted it to +11 along with my Morningstar. Just can't decide which weapon I like better. Also got ADD in this game. Keep starting and venturing places and then get super distracted by needing to find certain AoW or spells. Ugh, first world problems.


----------



## wankerness

pahulkster said:


> That fight was definitely tough. Worth it for the good summon though.
> 
> I couldn't beat the bell bearing hunter at the Caelid shack. Part of that was not being able to get it to spawn consistently. Only fight in the game I bailed on. Also bailed on the Hero's Graves because fuck all of that for some random loot I'll never use or remember.


The bell bearing hunters are fucking horrible, especially the Caelid one. I hate how they poise through EVERYTHING, they have monstrous range with the sword swings, and they are immune to bleed. I killed those on my worldboss tour yesterday and I still went through almost all my flasks on the Caelid and Altus ones. They're just the stupid boss from the Shaded Castle with amped up stats and minus your ability to summon. They should spawn 100% of the time if it's nighttime and you rest at the closest checkpoint. If you die the time resets to morning so you have to "pass time" again.

The hero's graves actually have some good stuff in them. I hate the lava/chariot one, but it has possibly my favorite gimmick weapon in the game, which is a goddam giant finger that's weapon art is to get really big and poke the enemy really hard. The one in that first area of the game has a summon that's very overpowered in early game and a golden seed, and the seal that boosts the dragon breath spells. One of them has a legendary weapon outside the entrance on a thief, guess you don't need to actually clear it for that. And then the mountaintop of the giants one gives you the armor set of those freaky ancient warrior guys from Zamor ruins.

Only 3 of them have the annoying chariots and 2 of those let you permanently destroy the chariots. Only the lava one makes you deal with them forever. The other two graves use a gimmick where there are light spots on the ground that you have to lead shadowed enemies into, or else they're invincible.


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> The bell bearing hunters are fucking horrible, especially the Caelid one. I hate how they poise through EVERYTHING, they have monstrous range with the sword swings, and they are immune to bleed. I killed those on my worldboss tour yesterday and I still went through almost all my flasks on the Caelid and Altus ones. They're just the stupid boss from the Shaded Castle with amped up stats and minus your ability to summon. They should spawn 100% of the time if it's nighttime and you rest at the closest checkpoint. If you die the time resets to morning so you have to "pass time" again.
> 
> The hero's graves actually have some good stuff in them. I hate the lava/chariot one, but it has possibly my favorite gimmick weapon in the game, which is a goddam giant finger that's weapon art is to get really big and poke the enemy really hard. The one in that first area of the game has a summon that's very overpowered in early game and a golden seed, and the seal that boosts the dragon breath spells. One of them has a legendary weapon outside the entrance on a thief, guess you don't need to actually clear it for that. And then the mountaintop of the giants one gives you the armor set of those freaky ancient warrior guys from Zamor ruins.
> 
> Only 3 of them have the annoying chariots and 2 of those let you permanently destroy the chariots. Only the lava one makes you deal with them forever. The other two graves use a gimmick where there are light spots on the ground that you have to lead shadowed enemies into, or else they're invincible.


How do you get rid of those chariots? I went through the Aurizas Heros Grave up until dual Crucible knights [fuck that shit rn] and it had lava and chariots. Haven't found the other Hero's Graves yet.


----------



## narad

Well I made it to Malenia. Probably going to need to take a break for a while.


----------



## wankerness

Wc707 said:


> How do you get rid of those chariots? I went through the Aurizas Heros Grave up until dual Crucible knights [fuck that shit rn] and it had lava and chariots. Haven't found the other Hero's Graves yet.


Both of them have some convoluted alternate path you can take. The one in limgrave has some pots hanging above the chariot and if you time it right they fall and destroy it. The other one, if you put some flame pillar up in some area it makes the third chariot spawn on the double chariot incline and all three blow up the next time you go back to that room.


----------



## Wc707

narad said:


> Well I made it to Malenia. Probably going to need to take a break for a while.


Hahahaha the most straightforward response


----------



## wankerness

With Malenia if you're not one of the two easy builds for her I don't think it's worth banging your head against the wall until they nerf her (which I expect they'll do, Waterfowl Dance for example is INSANE, the very first of three bounces of it was instantly 1-shotting my character at 50 vigor with medium armor).


----------



## Leviathus

I don't think they're nerfing anything at this point and they shouldn't. Game's been out for 2 months and everyone loves it, why start changing it now?


----------



## Wc707

One Legendary Player Is Repeatedly Soloing Elden Ring's Hardest Boss On Behalf Of Their Fellow Tarnished


Going by the name "Let me solo her," the player has already become a hero among the Elden Ring community.




www.gamespot.com


----------



## wankerness

Leviathus said:


> I don't think they're nerfing anything at this point and they shouldn't. Game's been out for 2 months and everyone loves it, why start changing it now?


Cause most people don't play hours a day and are only just starting to hit the areas that should be nerfed now. And since release a very substantial portion even of people that actually got through the whole thing have been saying the game gets a lot worse towards the end cause it's so overtuned. No one I'm aware of is asking for any nerfs pre-Mountaintop of the Giants. Everything's tuned totally fair and in-line with other Fromsoft games up until after you beat Morgott. Most people I know basically just tried to run from grace point to grace point through Mountaintops, Crumbling Farum and Haligtree since the enemies just had way too much health and did way too much damage to be worth the risk. 

Knowing fromsoft though they'll probably leave all the enemy damage in place and just nerf the shit out of players' bleed damage.

I just feel like a lot of stuff in this game is blatantly overtuned. There was practically no other attack in any Dark Souls game that would kill you instantly unless your health was massively underlevelled, while with the last several bosses in this game there are TONS. Like, it was a huge deal that Midir had a 1-shot laser cause it was basically unheard of in the series. Now every boss basically has the equivalent of multiple 1-shot lasers that you're supposed to avoid by summoning the one summon in the game that can just shrug off 2k+ damage hits repeatedly. They should nerf all boss damage and also nerf mimic tear health IMO. Like, letmesoloher man there is using the same arcane bleed uchi/rivers of blood build I used to faceroll through her with L1 (though he's definitely a lot better at it than me if he can actually dodge all of her attacks consistently). Would make the game more reasonable for anyone that wants to do anything other than Mimic Tear and/or some super-OP specific build out of a couple. I'd love to experiment with a lot of weapons, but they're totally non-viable in the endgame and you can't upgrade more than a few weapons per playthrough.


----------



## Leviathus

Casuals gonna casual, not a reason to dumb down the experience. Imagine how lame it woulda been if they nerfed Isshin months after Sekiro came out cos redditors whined so much about him.


----------



## wankerness

Leviathus said:


> Casuals gonna casual, not a reason to dumb down the experience. Imagine how lame it woulda been if they nerfed Isshin months after Sekiro came out cos redditors whined so much about him.


I played Sekiro for the first time immediately before this and didn't find anything in that game to be overtuned. That game's masterfully balanced. Again, nothing in that game will 1-shot you, you have to screw up multiple times. I should post my video of my terrible first Isshin kill sometime, I screw up right and left, got hit with almost everything, and just win at the end when I had like 1 seed and he had like an entire phase left cause I got a good Mikiri counter right at the end and then a couple parries and totally reversed the flow of the fight. I also played through all three DS games and Bloodborne for the first time in 2020 and have played them all at least twice through all the way, some of them 3-5 times, so they're all very fresh in my mind. There are things that are annoying, but nothing outrageous besides IMO midir and Laurence and owl father, but again, one is a very special secret boss that only has ONE instant-death attack and the other two just personally were rock to my scissors playstyle-wise.

Elden Ring gets really bad in the endgame very frequently. The damage is just way too high relative to possible damage mitigation/player health pools. I've beaten every single boss in the game 3 times, most bosses in the game 4 times, and it's overtuned in a way that no other Fromsoft game has been in a very specific way that means I've gotten through all the bosses with fewer attempts than many difficult bosses in other soulsbornes, but had to do so using trick builds and hiding behind the one grossly overpowered summon. "Casuals gonna casual," "dumbing down the experience?" Ugh. A game like Bloodborne or especially DS1/2, you could get through the whole game with just about any build that wasn't terrible and there was a huge variety of weapons that were viable. This, really not so much, especially in some sections of Moghwyn Palace/Haligtree/Crumbling Farum.


----------



## Wc707

Leviathus said:


> Casuals gonna casual, not a reason to dumb down the experience. Imagine how lame it woulda been if they nerfed Isshin months after Sekiro came out cos redditors whined so much about him.


Man talk about PTSD with SS Isshin. 
I spent a week playing every day limiting myself to 1 hr otherwise I'd go nuts.


----------



## Mathemagician

I haven’t gotten to those fights yet, went hard for a few weeks then have been playing other stuff for a bit.

But there is a difference between hard bosses and “boss that spams 1-shot attacks”.

I will 100% re-spec for a boss, but thankfully I happen to have played a mage so time to equip the hadoken I guess.


----------



## wankerness

Wc707 said:


> Man talk about PTSD with SS Isshin.
> I spent a week playing every day limiting myself to 1 hr otherwise I'd go nuts.


Somehow I only took about an hour and a half, but as mentioned above I did just about everything wrong. That's a GREAT fight. Only thing I would change about it is it's annoying having to stomp Genichiro every single attempt, but that's kind of a standard with later Fromsoft final bosses.


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> Somehow I only took about an hour and a half, but as mentioned above I did just about everything wrong. That's a GREAT fight. Only thing I would change about it is it's annoying having to stomp Genichiro every single attempt, but that's kind of a standard with later Fromsoft final bosses.


I agree about having to fight Genichiro every damn time cause if you jacked up that first fight, it kinda throws you off for the next 2 phases.
It is a great fight, but damn is it hard.


----------



## Leviathus

wankerness said:


> Cause most people don't play hours a day and are only just starting to hit the areas that should be nerfed now. And since release a very substantial portion even of people that actually got through the whole thing have been saying the game gets a lot worse towards the end cause it's so overtuned. No one I'm aware of is asking for any nerfs pre-Mountaintop of the Giants. Everything's tuned totally fair and in-line with other Fromsoft games up until after you beat Morgott. Most people I know basically just tried to run from grace point to grace point through Mountaintops, Crumbling Farum and Haligtree since the enemies just had way too much health and did way too much damage to be worth the risk.
> 
> Knowing fromsoft though they'll probably leave all the enemy damage in place and just nerf the shit out of players' bleed damage.
> 
> I just feel like a lot of stuff in this game is blatantly overtuned. There was practically no other attack in any Dark Souls game that would kill you instantly unless your health was massively underlevelled, while with the last several bosses in this game there are TONS. Like, it was a huge deal that Midir had a 1-shot laser cause it was basically unheard of in the series. Now every boss basically has the equivalent of multiple 1-shot lasers that you're supposed to avoid by summoning the one summon in the game that can just shrug off 2k+ damage hits repeatedly. They should nerf all boss damage and also nerf mimic tear health IMO. Like, letmesoloher man there is using the same arcane bleed uchi/rivers of blood build I used to faceroll through her with L1 (though he's definitely a lot better at it than me if he can actually dodge all of her attacks consistently). Would make the game more reasonable for anyone that wants to do anything other than Mimic Tear and/or some super-OP specific build out of a couple. I'd love to experiment with a lot of weapons, but they're totally non-viable in the endgame and you can't upgrade more than a few weapons per playthrough.


For the record i was responding to the 2 sentences you wrote before you edited in 2 paragraphs.


----------



## Wc707




----------



## Mathemagician

I want jar helmet.


----------



## AltecGreen

wankerness said:


> Well, fought Elden Beast as Faith build, and it totally sucks. Radagon's a pretty serious pain in the ass, too. I went a stupid one-shot int build on my first playthrough and cheesed Radagon with the Carian Slicer glitch (see Dunkey's first Elden Ring video for this in action, I'm so amused he resorted to the exact same stuff as me his first playthrough) and then got elden beast to about 20% with the first cast of comet azur. Having to fight him "legit" is terrible when he's heavily resistant to all your stuff. I really can't express how much I hate this boss design. Any boss that constantly teleports around the room AND has monstrous AOEs that as a result has you running 4/5 of the time and totally unable to do any damage to him on the rare occasion you get in melee range due to no stamina is a terrible boss. I eventually beat him with Ancient Dragon Lightning Strike since it's a pretty big AOE and the boss is massive so it would hit him multiple times. But, I was completely out of flasks and at about 20% health for the last 30 seconds so I almost had a heart attack. He was a LOT easier on my strength/Fallingstar Beast Jaw build and especially the int build. I haven't fought him on my dex character yet, guessing I'll just be able to spam Rivers of Blood weapon art till he dies, even if he's bleed immune.
> 
> Placidusax is exactly the same bullshit, huge boss with huge aoes that is constantly flying hundreds of yards out of your range and then hitting you with huge AOEs. Fortunately he's not immune to bleed so I just spammed swarm of flies in between all his flying and teleporting and it wasn't too bad. I still hate the fight, though I like the music. Reminds me of a particular piece of the Quake soundtrack.
> 
> So, now I pretty much just have to do Haligtree for the last items (seedbed curse, the rot knight ash, the two boss trophies) and then the endings and I'll have another platinum on this game. I hate unlocking that place so much!




I find it actually easier to beat Elden Beast as a Faith build. 

Use Lord's Divine Fortification. This gives you and your allies (aka Summon) 60% damage reduction to holy for 70 seconds. Equip Haligdrake Talisman for another 20% damage reduction. This mitigates most of the holy damage from Elden Beast. You can wear the Dragoncrest Great Shield Talisman for extra physical damage reduction and or periodically pop some boiled crab. To be extra sure, mix a Physick with Opaline Hardtear and Opaline Bubbletear. This adds extra damage reduction. It's a three minutes duration for Opaline Hardtear.

You can just go to town with a weapon (not holy, preferably purely physical). 


If you want to use incantations, use Pest Threads. The damage is physical and once you get the spacing right, each cast will do 3-6K damage to the Elden Beast. The reason for the high damage is that each thread that hits the Elden Beast continues to do damage to the Elden Beast as the thread goes through the body. Each cast launches 12 threads. So if you space yourself properly, each cast will hit the Elden Beast for high damage.


----------



## narad

I just got swarm of flies -- cool spell, wish I had it earlier. So naturally went to try it out on Malenia. I still got destroyed overall, and when my summon is that headless guy, they constantly disappear which sometimes leaves me at Malenia's mercy for too long, but overall, it seemed to have a strong effect on her / disrupting her. I feel like it's a promising path to go down if I'm not going to redo my stats which was basically the only principle I entered the game with -- these stats til the end, choose wisely, revisit for NG+. But my mimic tear is really weak against her, headless guy sucks, I may need to get that black knife summon.


----------



## narad

Black knife ringleader down! Man, that was the most physically involved I've been so far I think. I had one attempt where through where I was like, one more, one more, and ...it lands! But then he's not dead! He has no visible health at all. Then I'm in total panic mode despite having like 80% health, and of course, totally botch it. Managed to finish him off 4-5 attempts later. Went to make food and my hands were shaking too much to control cutlery lol

Then decided to take the newfound summon against Malenia, who so far I'd only gotten down about 50%, and first try using a lot of swarm of flies and black knife, passed to phase 2 without taking a single hit. And things stayed going well deep into phase 2 where she was down to maybe 35% health, before I got blasted with what I think is the waterfowl dance thing I keep hearing about. Then in about 8 more tries, got to phase 2 twice, and died immediately in one, and not soon after in the other. No idea what was going on in that first attempt -- I was beginning to think it was going to be an easy fight!

I have to beat her though. My character's basically a Malenia guard, might as well get that armor.


----------



## wankerness

AltecGreen said:


> I find it actually easier to beat Elden Beast as a Faith build.
> 
> Use Lord's Divine Fortification. This gives you and your allies (aka Summon) 60% damage reduction to holy for 70 seconds. Equip Haligdrake Talisman for another 20% damage reduction. This mitigates most of the holy damage from Elden Beast. You can wear the Dragoncrest Great Shield Talisman for extra physical damage reduction and or periodically pop some boiled crab. To be extra sure, mix a Physick with Opaline Hardtear and Opaline Bubbletear. This adds extra damage reduction. It's a three minutes duration for Opaline Hardtear.
> 
> You can just go to town with a weapon (not holy, preferably purely physical).
> 
> 
> If you want to use incantations, use Pest Threads. The damage is physical and once you get the spacing right, each cast will do 3-6K damage to the Elden Beast. The reason for the high damage is that each thread that hits the Elden Beast continues to do damage to the Elden Beast as the thread goes through the body. Each cast launches 12 threads. So if you space yourself properly, each cast will hit the Elden Beast for high damage.


I heard pest threads was good on radagon and elden beast, but I only tried it on radagon and it was total garbage and I didn’t even beat him. Sounds like I should have only used it on the beast. My faith was also pretty low, only 40.


----------



## AltecGreen

wankerness said:


> I heard pest threads was good on radagon and elden beast, but I only tried it on radagon and it was total garbage and I didn’t even beat him. Sounds like I should have only used it on the beast. My faith was also pretty low, only 40.


Radagon is a fast small target so Pest Threads is not that good. It works on Elden Beast because of the physical damage and the size of Elden Beast. 

But it almost doesn;t matter what you use for offense. Once you have stacked damage reduction to holy, the fight is much easier.


----------



## SamSam

Just beat the Elden Beast. Fairly tough fight, not as tough as Malenia mind.

I guess I best sort out any loose ends before new game and get as much loot as I can!


----------



## Flappydoodle

narad said:


> Black knife ringleader down! Man, that was the most physically involved I've been so far I think. I had one attempt where through where I was like, one more, one more, and ...it lands! But then he's not dead! He has no visible health at all. Then I'm in total panic mode despite having like 80% health, and of course, totally botch it. Managed to finish him off 4-5 attempts later. Went to make food and my hands were shaking too much to control cutlery lol
> 
> Then decided to take the newfound summon against Malenia, who so far I'd only gotten down about 50%, and first try using a lot of swarm of flies and black knife, passed to phase 2 without taking a single hit. And things stayed going well deep into phase 2 where she was down to maybe 35% health, before I got blasted with what I think is the waterfowl dance thing I keep hearing about. Then in about 8 more tries, got to phase 2 twice, and died immediately in one, and not soon after in the other. No idea what was going on in that first attempt -- I was beginning to think it was going to be an easy fight!
> 
> I have to beat her though. My character's basically a Malenia guard, might as well get that armor.


Haha I’ve been there. My watch said I had a heart rate of 120 when I was finishing off Maliketh. 

Tiche is incredible though. She has that red beam thing which quickly eats away boss health. I also found that if Melania is distracted, the dragon spells were good against her - like the frozen breath, poison or fire ones.


----------



## narad

Well, I just fought Malenia for 3 hours. To preface, my build uses the halo scythe a lot, with black flame as sort of a backup offense, sometimes the the winged scythe for melee. My usual strategy is summon, then blast the shit out of the guy with the blade of miquela or whatever that halo scythe art is. So Melania's been a bit of a pain for me and this faith build.

But after being inspired by "Let me solo her", I decided to just get some practice in. Went out and got the bloodhound step ash, put it it on a bleed twinblade. The plan became: finish phase 1 solo, no buffs, then physick, summon tiche, run away and let the full health summon take care of the half bar of health Malenia gets back. More specific strategy is one swarm of flies, and if it creates opportunity, go in and get the bleed, otherwise, dodge the attack, distance, try again. It was rough, couldn't get her below 20% for the longest time. But got a bit better, and then finally, one time finally did it -- finished phase one. Malenia is back at half health. Summon Tiche. Run away. Now Malenia has full health. Tiche is dead. And here we go again.

Switched to trying to work more cooperatively with Tiche but it's a struggle. When distracted sometimes I can lob some black flame and it seems to do a decent job. Make it past phase 1 sometimes, but Tiche is basically just an extra flask for Malenia at that point. Ugh, think this is going to be more of an "april" goal.


----------



## wankerness

Join the dark side and just get the blasphemous blade and mimic tear and call it a day. Might need blessing of the erdtree buff and a talisman for boosting weapon skills (the Alexander one was what I used).

If you’re trying to do bleed you should equip the mimic tear with some kind of fast bleed weapon (by having that out when you summon it) and then spam swarm of flies a lot. I am not sure if tiche helps stack bleed, if it does then that’s probably fine for a bleed strat.


----------



## SamSam

You can't beat Malenia by being passive, you need to be aggressive and attack when the opportunities arise. No summon will do enough damage to out damage her healing. You want to be aggressive in phase 1 and get her staggered. 

During phase two you need to be more patient but you and your summon should have more health for phase 2 if you are more aggressive during phase 1.


----------



## narad

I can do this. Another 90 minutes. Had her down to like 5% health on phase 2, but with no distractions I couldn't land another black flame. It's gonna happen. I switched from Tiche to mimic so that we're both going in with bleed heavy weapons, even though my character's a wuss so we're both getting beaten up badly. But unlike Tiche, there's like a net positive on damage to Malenia over time.

I did get the blasphemous blade... haven't tried it yet though because I need bloodhound's step to stand a chance. Still not sure how to dodge the waterfowl dance thing, so that's where things go game over. The time I had her at 5% was the time she didn't do it.


----------



## wankerness

narad said:


> I can do this. Another 90 minutes. Had her down to like 5% health on phase 2, but with no distractions I couldn't land another black flame. It's gonna happen. I switched from Tiche to mimic so that we're both going in with bleed heavy weapons, even though my character's a wuss so we're both getting beaten up badly. But unlike Tiche, there's like a net positive on damage to Malenia over time.
> 
> I did get the blasphemous blade... haven't tried it yet though because I need bloodhound's step to stand a chance. Still not sure how to dodge the waterfowl dance thing, so that's where things go game over. The time I had her at 5% was the time she didn't do it.


The kill attempts with her all just featured the mimic tanking them all. As far as I can tell if she goes for you with it your best bet is start running away instantly as soon as you see her rise up and then spam dodge away from her, but even that usually still resulted in my death if I was mid-swing at the time she starts going up.


----------



## wankerness

SamSam said:


> You can't beat Malenia by being passive, you need to be aggressive and attack when the opportunities arise. No summon will do enough damage to out damage her healing. You want to be aggressive in phase 1 and get her staggered.
> 
> During phase two you need to be more patient but you and your summon should have more health for phase 2 if you are more aggressive during phase 1.


Half true. If the mimic has bleed and you’re a bleed build it will make a huge contribution, and if you’re both using a blasphemous blade it will still take off chunks of her health as well as knock her down whenever it uses the weapon art. It most definitely can’t out-damage her solo though!!


----------



## narad

Hmmmm.... I could spawn the mimic with the blasphemous blade equiped, then try to quickly get into the menu and swap for my bleed twinblade with bloodhound step on it. I'm not sure the mimic was stepping, or doing a good job of it.


----------



## wankerness

narad said:


> Hmmmm.... I could spawn the mimic with the blasphemous blade equiped, then try to quickly get into the menu and swap for my bleed twinblade with bloodhound step on it. I'm not sure the mimic was stepping, or doing a good job of it.


The mimic basically face-tanks everything, definitely do not give it bloodhounds step.


----------



## wankerness

Yet again, a new playthrough with a new build (going int, mainly using moonveil and glintstone pebble) yields new problems. This time Elemer (aka the bell-bearing hunter, the version in Shaded Castle) wrecked me OVER and OVER. He'd two-shot me with two swings in less than 1 second repeatedly and I couldn't stagger him and his sweeps would kill all my wolf summons almost instantly. I had to just not summon an ash so I knew he'd always swing at me, and just stay in melee range and roll through all his bullshit. It was like a real dark souls boss instead of "summon an ash and dps freely!" What the heck! 

Putrid Crystalline Trio also was awful, I just gave up on that one and will come back later. Astel was weirdly easy compared to some playthroughs, just spammed rock sling at his face. Early dungeon bosses were all a joke, but things are getting harder as spells become non-viable due to trash scaling and I have to just play like a dex build. The int build sliding scale seems to be like, super easy up until Academy of Raya Lucaria, then stops being easy until you hit 60 int and can just comet azur things into dust (I'm only at 38 int right now so that's going to be a while, unless I respec - currently did way too balanced of stats with a lot into faith and arcane for rotten breath for radahn, a bunch into strength to use a decent shield, etc.

The other thing I really want to try out is the bolt of gransax, but I guess I have to commit either to that or to an int build since it requires 40 dex and there's no way I can get 60 int and 40 dex before endgame.


----------



## Mathemagician

In doing side quests because I got to the ice area and I’m not typically a fan of mono-color zones I almost touched the spicy-fire Doritos hand. Thankfully Melina warned me off and I decided to cave and look it up.

UGH so many endings I want to see/have done the work for. But I GOTSTA do it for my girl Ranni first.

I also gotta say that side quests also “flow” much better than DS2’s near nonsensical locations.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> In doing side quests because I got to the ice area and I’m not typically a fan of mono-color zones I almost touched the spicy-fire Doritos hand. Thankfully Melina warned me off and I decided to cave and look it up.
> 
> UGH so many endings I want to see/have done the work for. But I GOTSTA do it for my girl Ranni first.
> 
> I also gotta say that side quests also “flow” much better than DS2’s near nonsensical locations.


Imo the only interesting endings visually are the Ranni one and the one you get if you go in the door with the giant fingers in a very obscure location.


----------



## Mathemagician

That’s the spicy Doritos hand. I just didn’t know it “locked you in” but headed Melina’s warning and got lucky. There’s a way around it, but it’s convoluted and there’s pages in here of people dying to that specific boss. 

Anyone seen “Let Me Solo Her”? Guy solos Melania for people.


----------



## narad

Malenia down! Phewww!


----------



## Blytheryn

Took out Radahn with the Rotten Breath spell last night with one hit. No way I’m fighting that dude at level 40 manually.


----------



## Empryrean

Wc707 said:


> One Legendary Player Is Repeatedly Soloing Elden Ring's Hardest Boss On Behalf Of Their Fellow Tarnished
> 
> 
> Going by the name "Let me solo her," the player has already become a hero among the Elden Ring community.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> www.gamespot.com


I don't play multiplayer but I just couldn't resist 

I'm a big fan


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> That’s the spicy Doritos hand. I just didn’t know it “locked you in” but headed Melina’s warning and got lucky. There’s a way around it, but it’s convoluted and there’s pages in here of people dying to that specific boss.
> 
> Anyone seen “Let Me Solo Her”? Guy solos Melania for people.


Yeah, you have to save going through that door for the end of the game if you want to save scum the different endings unless you go through some hoops to cure it (I don't know what they are cause I didn't have to!). Fortunately it's impossible to accidentally go through the door unless you're trying to RP a Dark Souls Ungabunga build.

There was another big patch today. They nerfed a few things (carian retaliation glitch FINALLY, the giant crow farm in Moghwyn's Palace but only partially successfully, Adula's Moonblade) and buffed a LOT of weapons and weapon arts and sorceries. Seems to have been a concentrated effort to help strength builds, cause all big weapons got buffs to attack speed apart from jump attacks. Doesn't seem like they rebalanced any enemy damage, which I still think is a big problem.

Also, they buffed Malenia bigtime but it seems like a glitch - now she heals on attack even if she TOTALLY MISSES YOU. So, if you're running away and she's spamming at the air she'll just heal to full.

I watched some guy's video about Elden Ring that was trending on youtube and was way too long. "Elden Ring: A Shattered Masterpiece" or something. Basically he played through the whole game with no summons and as such had much better descriptions of exactly what was wrong with the last bosses and had interesting theories as to why. His basic conclusion was that they copied Sekiro-style bosses but left out the key mechanic that made Sekiro-style bosses work. In Sekiro, you're still "doing damage" to the boss when dealing with their endless attack combos thanks to the posture/deflect system, and you've also got infinite stamina so you don't get progressively weak as a boss attack chains on as long as you're correctly evading/parrying. This game, the bosses attack just as relentlessly, but you're doing NO damage to them the whole time and you're also losing stamina the whole time, which is nuts. He was showing a lot of comparisons AB between things like Gael (previously considered an extremely relentless Dark Souls boss) vs Malekith, and it's crazy how many opportunities you actually have to do damage on Gael. Plus the AI is triggered to read your inputs and sometimes punish you for attacking in the tiny occasional windows that you have to do damage, which is all just flat-out idiotic and punishes anyone severely who's not letting a spirit tank for them. He also went into depth on the infamous Malenia "Waterfowl Dance" and how it works and how if you're not using a summon you have to just treat the fight as "if she hasn't done it in 20 seconds, it's possible for her to do it at any moment, so you have to back really far away from her cause the first dive is actually undodgeable if you're anywhere close to her when she initiates it, but it's also possible for her to not do it again for over a minute in which case you're just stuck evading far away from her not doing any damage for a long time" which is a terrible fight design. I'm REALLY glad I didn't try to go through without using any summons.


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> I watched some guy's video about Elden Ring that was trending on youtube and was way too long. "Elden Ring: A Shattered Masterpiece" or something. Basically he played through the whole game with no summons and as such had much better descriptions of exactly what was wrong with the last bosses and had interesting theories as to why. His basic conclusion was that they copied Sekiro-style bosses but left out the key mechanic that made Sekiro-style bosses work. In Sekiro, you're still "doing damage" to the boss when dealing with their endless attack combos thanks to the posture/deflect system, and you've also got infinite stamina so you don't get progressively weak as a boss attack chains on as long as you're correctly evading/parrying. This game, the bosses attack just as relentlessly, but you're doing NO damage to them the whole time and you're also losing stamina the whole time, which is nuts. He was showing a lot of comparisons AB between things like Gael (previously considered an extremely relentless Dark Souls boss) vs Malekith, and it's crazy how many opportunities you actually have to do damage on Gael. Plus the AI is triggered to read your inputs and sometimes punish you for attacking in the tiny occasional windows that you have to do damage, which is all just flat-out idiotic and punishes anyone severely who's not letting a spirit tank for them. He also went into depth on the infamous Malenia "Waterfowl Dance" and how it works and how if you're not using a summon you have to just treat the fight as "if she hasn't done it in 20 seconds, it's possible for her to do it at any moment, so you have to back really far away from her cause the first dive is actually undodgeable if you're anywhere close to her when she initiates it, but it's also possible for her to not do it again for over a minute in which case you're just stuck evading far away from her not doing any damage for a long time" which is a terrible fight design. I'm REALLY glad I didn't try to go through without using any summons.


This sounds about right to me. I can't shake the feeling that you basically have to call Elden Ring a masterpiece just because of the sheer scope and artistry of it, but Sekiro was a way better game, especially in the late game. Past golden Godwin, it felt like every main line boss after that was just RNG. Either I got a bunch of favorable, punishable attack patterns and won without much effort, or they did one of their big stupid attacks and I died instantly... Melania obviously being by far the worst for that.

I get why they felt like that had to go in that direction.. any of the "traditional" Souls bosses are just too easy, like the dragons, fire giant, Astel, whatever. But it really does seem like they brought Sekiro bosses straight over without realizing the fights weren't going to work, or be any fun, when most people playing are only going to have the dodge roll. And Waterfowl... good god man, that move can fuck right off.

The worst part is I actually killed Melania, then I died to scarlet rot because you can't animation cancel your attacks quickly enough to use my flask. Then her death animation is way longer than any other boss in the games' she didn't finish her last words before "YOU DIED" popped up so here I am, 10 attempts later, still trying... can't wait to put this shit to rest and go play Sekiro again.


----------



## wankerness

Apparently Malenia's only buffed on co-op mode. The bug seems to be that now the healing triggers on the host's end, like, if the host sees her as having hit you she will heal, but since she didn't hit you on your end, you don't take damage. As a result, she will just basically spam heal the entire time and the fight will take a hell of a lot longer on co-op mode. The "Letmesoloher" dude posted a video today of him soloing her today. FIFTEEN MINUTES. That guy's skills are insane, by the way, he actually has the timings worked out to dodge everything almost every single time. He uses THREE FLASKS over that fifteen minutes of fighting her.



Though there were also posts from him on how it's a lot easier to dodge her stuff as a phantom because of how the netcode works, like, her attacks are slightly delayed if you're a phantom vs if you're the host.


----------



## Leviathus

There are plenty of opportunities to hit Maliketh with just melee no summon, and he only has half a health bar. And FWIW, i consider myself a very average (if not less than average) souls player. He's probably my favorite boss in the game but i never found that fight to be unfair in any way, just appropriately challenging.


----------



## Mathemagician

I just want them to keep buffing things that are “weaker” versus needing by things that are good. Thankfully this patch generally continues that trend, because it’s a PVE game and it’s just more fun if everything is good/viable versus getting nerfed at the first sign of fun.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I just want them to keep buffing things that are “weaker” versus needing by things that are good. Thankfully this patch generally continues that trend, because it’s a PVE game and it’s just more fun if everything is good/viable versus getting nerfed at the first sign of fun.


I'm not optimistic they're not going to eventually nerf everything as a response to PVP, because PVP is really stupid at mid-levels since basically everything kills other players in like 2 hits. A better solution of course would be to do what they eventually did with World of Warcraft and just plain have abilities do different damage against other players than against monsters.

Apparently even with all the buffs a big strength boy build is still a lot worse than a bleed build as far as damage output ability, but hey, it's mostly viable so whatever.

One thing they DID nerf a bunch was Swarm of Flies - patch notes just say it had its bleed buildup effect reduced. I don't know exactly how much they nerfed it, I had no bosses left on my character built around it and I'm not starting NG+ till there's a reason. Weirdly they buffed the AOE attack that you use for farming those guys on the Mogh approach, I didn't see that one coming.


----------



## Mathemagician

I don’t even have swarm of flies. Haven’t messed around with anything other than INT builds yet, still on my first playthrough.


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> Apparently Malenia's only buffed on co-op mode. The bug seems to be that now the healing triggers on the host's end, like, if the host sees her as having hit you she will heal, but since she didn't hit you on your end, you don't take damage. As a result, she will just basically spam heal the entire time and the fight will take a hell of a lot longer on co-op mode. The "Letmesoloher" dude posted a video today of him soloing her today. FIFTEEN MINUTES. That guy's skills are insane, by the way, he actually has the timings worked out to dodge everything almost every single time. He uses THREE FLASKS over that fifteen minutes of fighting her.
> 
> 
> 
> Though there were also posts from him on how it's a lot easier to dodge her stuff as a phantom because of how the netcode works, like, her attacks are slightly delayed if you're a phantom vs if you're the host.



15 minutes... most of it spent walking in circles doing nothing, because you can't safely do anything. That's excruciating. So dull. That waterfowl dodge doesn't quite work like that when you're host. It still works but isn't at all what I'd call repeatable


----------



## Thaeon

sakeido said:


> 15 minutes... most of it spent walking in circles doing nothing, because you can't safely do anything. That's excruciating. So dull. That waterfowl dodge doesn't quite work like that when you're host. It still works but isn't at all what I'd call repeatable



I started playing it a little over the weekend. And that seems to be every boss fight. Just abject avoidance till you can dart in and strike once or twice and then back to just running away. Not super fun if you ask me. The perrying mechanic is designed for people with spiderman like reflexes as well.


----------



## wankerness

Thaeon said:


> I started playing it a little over the weekend. And that seems to be every boss fight. Just abject avoidance till you can dart in and strike once or twice and then back to just running away. Not super fun if you ask me. The perrying mechanic is designed for people with spiderman like reflexes as well.


Nah, the parrying mechanic is more about memorizing a boss's moveset and figuring out what the timings are. It's pretty consistent with the dark souls series, and a lot less twitchy than Sekiro. But also a lot more frustrating, since it seems kind of arbitrary what is parryable vs what isn't, and the timings are really frustrating, and unlike sekiro if you miss the timing you take FULL damage and a nice chunk of stamina damage. Basically it encourages you to just block.


----------



## Empryrean

according to some sources on YouTube it looks like the 1.04 patch broke a few sequence breaking tricks you can do to get around the map without advancing certain quests. bummer  
I wouldn't be interested in skipping ahead if it was my first playthrough though, just wanna preserve the game at a certain state before I continue my NG playthrough.
it also looks like some of the floating lightning incantations got a buff, and a lot of big weapons were made faster which is fun, I forgot how easy it was to bonk something real good and follow up with critical hits


----------



## thebeesknees22

ok fellas i took the jump and picked up elden ring. First thought. The save system is stupid. Why do i have to quit the game to manually save. What the heck.


----------



## Fantomas

it also autosaves, so no need to manually save


----------



## Mathemagician

Yeah a symbol like a gate or something (I forget) pops up on screen when it’s saving.


----------



## wankerness

thebeesknees22 said:


> ok fellas i took the jump and picked up elden ring. First thought. The save system is stupid. Why do i have to quit the game to manually save. What the heck.


It basically saves all the time, if you force quit the game to try and quick avoid the consequences of a stupid death it’s always too late.

It’s a good system, I hate all the modern Aaa games where you can’t manually save and be sure it’s going to save exactly where you are or reset you back to some checkpoint that you have no idea when it was (yes I’m looking at you far cry 6 and horizon forbidden west).


----------



## Leviathus

Apparently theres a glitch in the latest patch that happens with bleed + godskin duo where you get an instakill less than halfway through the fight. Happened to me earlier on my BK ninjamage playthrough, went for the fat one first and once i took out his first incarnation the boss' life bar went to zero and that was that. Guess they'll fix it soon but it was a very surprising "I won?" moment lol.


----------



## thebeesknees22

wankerness said:


> It basically saves all the time, if you force quit the game to try and quick avoid the consequences of a stupid death it’s always too late.
> 
> It’s a good system, I hate all the modern Aaa games where you can’t manually save and be sure it’s going to save exactly where you are or reset you back to some checkpoint that you have no idea when it was (yes I’m looking at you far cry 6 and horizon forbidden west).


i died like 50 times yesterday ....didn't progress on anything at all story wise. I just wondered around dying. 
I give up. Haha. This is not the game for me.


----------



## wankerness

Stop dying so much and maybe you’ll start having fun!!

I beat the game with all bosses/world bosses for the fourth time yesterday, with an int build. Decided I was not respeccing at all, so had to get a couple stupid strats off the net for Malenia (only equip ancient rancor and ranni’s dark moon, spam ancient rancor the whole time after debuffing her, she’s basically stunlocked the whole time if your mimic doesn’t totally f it up) and the dragonlord guy (I had 20 less int than the playthrough I could comet azur him so I did astel’s meteor up in melee range instead).

I finally played a game that wasn’t elden ring for the first time since it released after that. Guess I might finally be done for a bit until they either make ng+ worth doing or add some more content, neither of which I see happening any time soon. Might try an actual strength build instead of making a strength build that instead ends up being projectile spam with fallingstar beast jaw now that they buffed heavy weapon speed and damage so it’s not just a bunch of jump attack spam.

The game was Horizon Forbidden West, and playing it was jarring, just the way it feels TOTALLY different in the way you approach it to elden ring. It’s just a whole bunch of icons on the map, and you can see the map while in combat, and icons appear all over your radar. As a result, I always just end up tunnel-visioning all the icons and the exploration is more “fill in the map icons, cross things off the checklist!!” Elden Ring is a lot more like breath of the wild- you HAVE to engage with the world to find stuff and you can’t tunnel vision map icons the same way. What a huge difference! Even if the game really isn’t THAT different in its essentials.


----------



## MFB

I've been pushing through the Haligtree, made it to the grace point right before the Crystalline Trio and almost had those shites down except for that I forgot about his Scarlet Rot laserbeam move on the ranged one so that thoroughly chewed through all 60 of my vigor (feelsbadman.jpg) and I went to bed. I haven't taken out the Putrid Erdtree Avatar at the end either, I just sprinted through him to get into the corridor for the SoG, activated it and let myself die so I could spawn there; the fight through all of Malenia's knights then dealing with those dude's right at the end even with mimic still somehow managed to ruin me everytime.

I still need to find Mohg to get his trophy, I can't remember if his teleporter is in the Consecrated Snowfield or if he's the one in the sewers of the Capitol


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I've been pushing through the Haligtree, made it to the grace point right before the Crystalline Trio and almost had those shites down except for that I forgot about his Scarlet Rot laserbeam move on the ranged one so that thoroughly chewed through all 60 of my vigor (feelsbadman.jpg) and I went to bed. I haven't taken out the Putrid Erdtree Avatar at the end either, I just sprinted through him to get into the corridor for the SoG, activated it and let myself die so I could spawn there; the fight through all of Malenia's knights then dealing with those dude's right at the end even with mimic still somehow managed to ruin me everytime.
> 
> I still need to find Mohg to get his trophy, I can't remember if his teleporter is in the Consecrated Snowfield or if he's the one in the sewers of the Capitol


There are two moghs. The first is in the capital sewers and is like a preview of the full fight. I don't know what happens if you kill the moghwyn palace one first, I never tried. I wouldn't be surprised if it locks out the other one. Be aware that you need a specific magick flask ingredient equipped for the real fight or you will have a very bad time at his phase transition. You get it from an invader in a church in Altus.

You can pull those crystalline guys one at a time, I highly recommend doing so. Especially since they respawn!

Did you do the quest for the one armed woman (starts in that magic ghost town in Caelid, progresses in Altus)? If so, you need to fight that putrid tree spirit in a VERY uncomfortable location soon since you have to do that quest before you fight melania if you want any rewards. I highly suggest levelling up a bow or magic so you can run back across the tree roots and shoot him. Fighting him in the rot is an exercise in frustration.


----------



## MFB

wankerness said:


> There are two moghs. The first is in the capital sewers and is like a preview of the full fight. I don't know what happens if you kill the moghwyn palace one first, I never tried. I wouldn't be surprised if it locks out the other one. Be aware that you need a specific magick flask ingredient equipped for the real fight or you will have a very bad time at his phase transition. You get it from an invader in a church in Altus.
> 
> You can pull those crystalline guys one at a time, I highly recommend doing so. Especially since they respawn!
> 
> Did you do the quest for the one armed woman (starts in that magic ghost town in Caelid, progresses in Altus)? If so, you need to fight that putrid tree spirit in a VERY uncomfortable location soon since you have to do that quest before you fight melania if you want any rewards. I highly suggest levelling up a bow or magic so you can run back across the tree roots and shoot him. Fighting him in the rot is an exercise in frustration.



I have Mohg's Shackle from way back when, I don't remember where I got it but it's just been taking up space in my inventory; I'll have to take a look for a flask item though. I remember roaming around in the Leyndell sewer's trying to find Mohg but for the life of me I kept ending up at the god damn Omens and those dudes can go fuck themselves. 

I did trickle the Crystalline enemies, and that's actually what cost me. I got so cocky having the first two dead and then rushed the third, then after dodging his first two ranged attacks he just threw that beam on me and it was like, "yeah, I still had that up my sleeve you dumb slut. You're not better than me."

I have been doing Millena's quest or whatever her name is, I got her the prosthetic and she helped me with the Elmer of the Briar etc... Curious to see what the location for the other tree spirit is, so far I haven't seen anything awful, but it wouldn't surprise me if they threw some more shitty placing at me.


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> There are two moghs. The first is in the capital sewers and is like a preview of the full fight. I don't know what happens if you kill the moghwyn palace one first, I never tried. I wouldn't be surprised if it locks out the other one. Be aware that you need a specific magick flask ingredient equipped for the real fight or you will have a very bad time at his phase transition. You get it from an invader in a church in Altus.
> 
> You can pull those crystalline guys one at a time, I highly recommend doing so. Especially since they respawn!
> 
> Did you do the quest for the one armed woman (starts in that magic ghost town in Caelid, progresses in Altus)? If so, you need to fight that putrid tree spirit in a VERY uncomfortable location soon since you have to do that quest before you fight melania if you want any rewards. I highly suggest levelling up a bow or magic so you can run back across the tree roots and shoot him. Fighting him in the rot is an exercise in frustration.


Sewer Mogh is still there even if you beat Moghwyn Mogh first.. I think the fan theory right now is that he's a projection or something and not the actual guy, because he never makes a noise when you fight him down there. I beat Mogh without even bothering to put the curse remedy thingy in my flask.. I just ran in to fight him thinking it'd take a few tries but I absolutely mopped the floor with him on my first go. Just healed through the curse with my flask.



MFB said:


> I have Mohg's Shackle from way back when, I don't remember where I got it but it's just been taking up space in my inventory; I'll have to take a look for a flask item though. I remember roaming around in the Leyndell sewer's trying to find Mohg but for the life of me I kept ending up at the god damn Omens and those dudes can go fuck themselves.
> 
> I did trickle the Crystalline enemies, and that's actually what cost me. I got so cocky having the first two dead and then rushed the third, then after dodging his first two ranged attacks he just threw that beam on me and it was like, "yeah, I still had that up my sleeve you dumb slut. You're not better than me."
> 
> I have been doing Millena's quest or whatever her name is, I got her the prosthetic and she helped me with the Elmer of the Briar etc... Curious to see what the location for the other tree spirit is, so far I haven't seen anything awful, but it wouldn't surprise me if they threw some more shitty placing at me.


Teleporter to Mogh is at the western tip of the snowfield. You have to kill the Sanguine Nobel for it to activate too. To move Millicent to Haligtree, you have to beat the Godskin Apostle in the windmill village then reload the grace that appears, she'll be there.. then she appears at one of the Mountain of Giants graces, can't remember which, then the prayer room grace at the Haligtree then she'll move to where the ulcerated tree spirit is after you beat it.

I have no idea at all how From thought anybody would be able to figure out these quests without a guide


----------



## MFB

Millicent! That was her name, I knew it was Mill something and it sounds like eighteen other names of things in the past year so I stopped trying to remember. Luckily for me she's actually at the Haligtree now talking about how she needs to return Malenia's will to her, and barring her going back to Godwyn's shack that one random time before heading to the Mountaintop of the Giants I somehow found her each time. 

I don't even pay attention to From's sidequests since they never affect anything, I don't think they even tie trophies back to them (either specific ones or doing all, etc) and because everything is so obscure it's impossible to do on your own


----------



## wankerness

The sidequests here do affect things, like, there are multiple bosses and some entire zones locked behind them in this game. The ones you should definitely look up/do if you didn't screw them up already:
Ranni (unlocks another area of Liurnia, walks you through extra underground zones, gets you some really good caster items)
Millicent (somber smithing stone and a good attack buff trinket, also a few really good spells from the guy in the shack get unlocked during it)
Latenna (you basically don't have to do anything other than unlock the haligtree and you get a somber smithing stone)
Alexander (gives you the best trinket for increasing weapon skill damage)
Fia (i know the lichdragon is locked behind her quest, maybe the fia's champions too, plus there are some good items if you do the interlocking D quest)
Thops (if you go poking around in the second major dungeon you'll find the item he wants, and there are two towers in liurnia you can't get the items out of without doing his quest first)

Trophies are tied to both Ranni's (unmissable, though you might have to get turtle pope to cleanse your sins if you pissed her off) and Fia's (missable).

Then there's some that are less required but have some half-decent rewards:
Nepheli/Kenneth/that jerk in Stormveil Castle - Two ancient dragon smithing stones and some boring weapons, plus you can summon her for a couple fights and she's actually helpful
Dung Eater (the ugliest armor set in the game, a sword that inflicts the death status effect, as well as a stupid ending where you curse the world)
That straw-hat guy from the first zone - some really, really good weapons like the nagakiba, eleanor's poleblade and rivers of blood, though you can get most of them even without properly doing his quest
Seluvis - if you prioritize his stuff and do things in a weird order you can get either Nepheli or Dung Eater as an ash summon
Volcano Manor guys - if you do ALL the contracts before killing Rykard you get a whole lot of armor sets and some spells. I always do this even though it's very annoying having to get all the way to Mountaintop of the Giants before killing Rykard.
Corhyn/Goldmask - you get some goofy armor at the end and some extra incantations, also another boring ending

Then there's the monkey guy that everyone loves but all he gives you are warm fuzzies and the ability to take capes off of chest armor for free. The others are either impossible to miss (ex, the spirit tuning chick), tied into other quests (ex Blackguard or that whiny guy that always talks about House Hoslow) or basically pointless (ex, friendly snake girl or the early stuff with Blaidd).

I'm probably forgetting something. But they're definitely not all pointless.


----------



## sakeido

The Volcano Manor quests are great.. the last guy drops what is (imo) the best set of armor in the game. Looks amazing, with a badass cape, and it seemed to have the most poise/damage reduction relative to its weight of anything I've found.

I liked the Ronin set that drops off the Nagakiba guy too but not enough poise, didn't work for some fights where I needed to facetank to land hits like most of the Black Knifes and Melania. Millicent's attack power booster is awesome to have too, any time you get to tee up big combos (any giant enemy) it makes a huuuuuge difference

Onto NG+. Only have two achievements left to get, for the other two endings... think I'll do frenzied flame this time around then go back to save scum and do Ranni's quest because it's too goddamn long for me to want to play all that again. Really hope they patch the PC issues soon


----------



## MFB

Huh, after seeing it all out in one place, I've done a large number of those 

Ranni - I finished her's getting the Dark Moon Blade/killing Blaidd
Millicent - in progress but it'll be finished if I can actually beat Malenia (read as: I won't)
Latenna - I finished her's unlocking her as an ash and saw the "big sister" in the snowfield)
Fia - I finished her's in the Depths and killed Lichdragon/champions which also wrapped up D's brother's quest)
Nepheli - I finished her's by giving her the Stormhawk ash, and she went to Godrick's chamber meeting up with Kenneth Haight
Dung Eater - I finished his by killing him in the sewer, don't remember if I got his armor but I think I have his sword
Straw Hat - I THINK I finished his since he disappeared after some cave and I got the Nagakiba (I think thats the polearm right?)
Volcano Manor - I did all contract's there + killed Rykar, I just need to find the snake chick and give her the letter
Seamster Boc - I finished his pretty easily, have never used his services as it takes away the majority of the armor upgrades

Alexander - I didn't run into him at Volcano Manor until AFTER killing the Fire Giant, so I probably biffed it
Seluvis - he dead, but I got his bell + armor stuff so tough shit there for me


----------



## wankerness

I absolutely recommend save scumming in a few locations in this game, it's just a blatant waste of your time in a couple sections if you don't. I did it every time with that horrible platforming section under the dungeon under the capital since you had to not only risk getting killed to get the violin dudes to break the items out of the tents with their eyebeams, but there's a long section of platforming where the jumps are NOT at all clear, and if you die you have to start all the way back at the top of everything. Or the part where you have three tries to shoot pots to destroy the chariots in one dungeon, and if you mess up you have to reset the whole dungeon and get all the way back to there.

I utterly love most Fromsoft games and I totally get the bonfire mechanic and how important it is for leveling and whatnot, but sometimes it really is a gigantic waste of your time and absolutely should be bypassed if you can. I sometimes do it midway through Sen's Fortress, too, when I'm playing versions of the game where you can do that. Or at the entrance to Four Kings. The longggg runback isn't HARD, it's just a huge waste of time and really annoying. The only way you could argue it's a difficulty increase in a case like that is that it gets you out of the "zone" for the boss having to do that in between every attempt.

Or sometimes it does make things easier, like in DS2 I will absolutely do it for Lud and Zallen, cause no one should ever play through reindeer fuckland repeatedly. I often regret not doing it for that lengthy run to Drangleic Castle where you fight a huge gauntlet of enemies, too. Or at the end of that extremely long detour in DS3 to turn off the huge ballista in smoldering lake.


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## wankerness

MFB said:


> Huh, after seeing it all out in one place, I've done a large number of those
> 
> Ranni - I finished her's getting the Dark Moon Blade/killing Blaidd
> Millicent - in progress but it'll be finished if I can actually beat Malenia (read as: I won't)
> Latenna - I finished her's unlocking her as an ash and saw the "big sister" in the snowfield)
> Fia - I finished her's in the Depths and killed Lichdragon/champions which also wrapped up D's brother's quest)
> Nepheli - I finished her's by giving her the Stormhawk ash, and she went to Godrick's chamber meeting up with Kenneth Haight
> Dung Eater - I finished his by killing him in the sewer, don't remember if I got his armor but I think I have his sword
> Straw Hat - I THINK I finished his since he disappeared after some cave and I got the Nagakiba (I think thats the polearm right?)
> Volcano Manor - I did all contract's there + killed Rykar, I just need to find the snake chick and give her the letter
> Seamster Boc - I finished his pretty easily, have never used his services as it takes away the majority of the armor upgrades
> 
> Alexander - I didn't run into him at Volcano Manor until AFTER killing the Fire Giant, so I probably biffed it
> Seluvis - he dead, but I got his bell + armor stuff so tough shit there for me


Dung Eater you ended prematurely if you killed him with a weapon, you're supposed to collect 5 seedbed curses and feed them to him to get his great rune. If you got his armor set though no big deal.
Straw Hat guy's thing that often gets missed is when you can help him with a summon sign at the bridge by the entrance to raya lucaria academy. you can still get his nagikaba (it's basically a longer uchigatana with higher strength requirements, i used it as my main weapon for most of my dex playthrough) at wherever the location was that you screwed up the quest, but you miss out on a couple less important items. Eleanor still invades even if you biffed his quest.

Alexander you can probably still progress, just figure out where to find him. He's hiding in the lava by that world magma wyrm that's in the way north of altus, and then he's in a semi-obscure location in crumbling farum for the end of the quest. I missed him both in limgrave and liurnia on my last playthrough and still finished his quest just fine. He was stuck in the boss arena for Radahn till I talked to him and he talked about eating dead bodies or whatever.

One other one that I THINK you can do all the way at the end of the game is Sellen, you get some really, really good caster items if you side with her during her quest. Plus it forces you to get a couple items you can get without doing her quest, most importantly Comet Azur, the kamehama spell.

What build are you? Malenia REALLY is easy if you have one of a few. I've now killed her with three separate builds and four separate strategies that mostly involved me having to dodge exactly one attack the entire fight. Faith - Blasphemous Blade weapon art, Dex/Arcane - Rivers of Blood weapon art once which is completely braindead, and just spamming L1 with rivers of blood/bloody uchi with seppuku another time which actually required me having to look out for some of her attacks. Then yesterday I beat her with the aforementioned int build (60 int, 24 faith, which was lucky cause the main nuke spell required 24 faith and the main debuff spell required 68 int and I had a talisman and hat that added up to 8). Basically any of those three strats will have a tiny bit of luck involved but will still let you nuke her down and ultimately be easier than say, O&S.


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## MFB

Ah, I only fed him 2-3 seedbed curses before I found him in the jail, so oh well tough shit. People were saying he's a tough fight and I thought he was a pushover, even if I was slightly over-leveled when I did it, but maybe it wasn't the TRUE Dung Eater fight then. Alexander I did meet in the lava, which was very odd, I don't think I've run into him in Crumbling Farum so it really must be obscure as I've been running all over where I could; but maybe it's also past Malekith which I'm not at yet.

For Malenia, I'm fucked because I'm a pure Unga-Bunga STR build, I got it all the way up to 80 so it's at the hard-cap and my Dex is only at 15. Since she seems to require re-spec'ing if your a STR build, I'll save her for the end game and hit up Rennala to do that before I start my NG+ that I might do as caster.


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## wankerness

MFB said:


> Ah, I only fed him 2-3 seedbed curses before I found him in the jail, so oh well tough shit. People were saying he's a tough fight and I thought he was a pushover, even if I was slightly over-leveled when I did it, but maybe it wasn't the TRUE Dung Eater fight then. Alexander I did meet in the lava, which was very odd, I don't think I've run into him in Crumbling Farum so it really must be obscure as I've been running all over where I could; but maybe it's also past Malekith which I'm not at yet.
> 
> For Malenia, I'm fucked because I'm a pure Unga-Bunga STR build, I got it all the way up to 80 so it's at the hard-cap and my Dex is only at 15. Since she seems to require re-spec'ing if your a STR build, I'll save her for the end game and hit up Rennala to do that before I start my NG+ that I might do as caster.


I'm sure people have done Malenia as that build but yeah, respec to like 30 dex/55 arc, get rivers of blood and another katana to max, and she's a joke. 

Did you exhaust his dialogue in the lava? If so, yeah, he goes to Crumbling Farum, which is a pretty huge area with a lot of optional paths. He's somewhat late in the level, there's a bunch of skeleton beastmen and there are two arches you can jump onto and cross over to another landbridge, he's over there. But that area is HUGE and every playthrough I found some totally new area. And good luck accidentally finding that dragonlord boss without a guide (On my first playthrough, I found his location but didn't walk over the "lay down" spot and thus was like "well this area is pointless!!!" and left only to later read about him when looking at a trophy guide).


----------



## MFB

Did some more running around last night, took down the Crystalline trio and gotta say - the sword wasn't really worth it, but oh well. I might try and get the treasure from the lake of rot, but honestly, probably not because it's wildly inconvenient to walk through rot. I would understand if at some point you got a ring to make moving through it slightly easier like with lava in DS1, but nope! Just a big heaping bowl of GFY.

I DID take down that god damn Draconic Tree Sentinel in front of Maliketh, I think I just needed more stamina as he has a couple attacks he can chain that you really need to get out of the way for. So now I think I have to kill him and keep moving forward, or I warp back and finish Moghwyn's Place that I also made it to (I killed Sanguine Noble when I first found the Consecrated Snowfield I just thought he was another invader, not guarding the teleporter)


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## Wc707

MFB said:


> Did some more running around last night, took down the Crystalline trio and gotta say - the sword wasn't really worth it, but oh well. I might try and get the treasure from the lake of rot, but honestly, probably not because it's wildly inconvenient to walk through rot. I would understand if at some point you got a ring to make moving through it slightly easier like with lava in DS1, but nope! Just a big heaping bowl of GFY.
> 
> I DID take down that god damn Draconic Tree Sentinel in front of Maliketh, I think I just needed more stamina as he has a couple attacks he can chain that you really need to get out of the way for. So now I think I have to kill him and keep moving forward, or I warp back and finish Moghwyn's Place that I also made it to (I killed Sanguine Noble when I first found the Consecrated Snowfield I just thought he was another invader, not guarding the teleporter)


I went through the lake of rot with Flame, Cleanse Me and some boluses and it wasn't terrible. Definitely allocate more crimson flasks just in case. I didn't defeat the dragonskin solider though. Didn't seem worth it at the time [I was level 100]. Might go back later. The Ulcerated Tree Spirit after the lake fucking sucks though


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## MFB

Wc707 said:


> I went through the lake of rot with Flame, Cleanse Me and some boluses and it wasn't terrible. Definitely allocate more crimson flasks just in case. I didn't defeat the dragonskin solider though. Didn't seem worth it at the time [I was level 100]. Might go back later. The Ulcerated Tree Spirit after the lake fucking sucks though



I did forget that I finally went through and looked up which books contained certain bolluses and apparently I missed Armorer's Cookbook 6 in the Siofra River Well which contains the ones that protect against scarlet rot so that'll make life easier. I need to find some cave moss to stock up on, but I have the others in spades.


----------



## Wc707

MFB said:


> I did forget that I finally went through and looked up which books contained certain bolluses and apparently I missed Armorer's Cookbook 6 in the Siofra River Well which contains the ones that protect against scarlet rot so that'll make life easier. I need to find some cave moss to stock up on, but I have the others in spades.


Yeah there's one merchant in Siofra I found last night after looking up where to get oil pots and he's in a SUPER clandestine spot off some rafters above the building with all the poison flowers inside.


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## sakeido

MFB said:


> I did forget that I finally went through and looked up which books contained certain bolluses and apparently I missed Armorer's Cookbook 6 in the Siofra River Well which contains the ones that protect against scarlet rot so that'll make life easier. I need to find some cave moss to stock up on, but I have the others in spades.


imo Flame, Cleanse Me is better than getting bogged down doing crafting shit. the requirements for it are super low, almost any build can use it.. even if you can't you could use a +5 faith medallion or something to get to the minimum stat you need just to get through the lake 

I didn't bother beating the boss down there either, only 70k runes and yet another greatsword so wasn't worth the aggravation


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## wankerness

Wc707 said:


> I went through the lake of rot with Flame, Cleanse Me and some boluses and it wasn't terrible. Definitely allocate more crimson flasks just in case. I didn't defeat the dragonskin solider though. Didn't seem worth it at the time [I was level 100]. Might go back later. The Ulcerated Tree Spirit after the lake fucking sucks though


I used flame cleanse me on most playthroughs and boluses on one other. Given the spell casts so slow that you have half the build-up back before you can even move, I tended to just cast it every time I got to a safe spot instead of trying to prevent any damage from rot at all. If you can craft the boluses it's not too bad, but this game is REALLY stingy with them if you try to get by with ones you get from drops. I wish there was something like those plant guys in darkroot garden in DS1 where you could just farm them for 30 minutes and be set for the entire game with cure items for both poison and toxic since they had close to 100% drop rate and were really easy to kill. Ah well. Farming dragonflies is incredibly annoying if they start flying around cause no attack can track them until they finally decide to attack you.

There aren't many good items in the lake of rot, there's an item that increases rot resistance off that random moose guy (which makes it so you get rot after standing in the lake for like 3 seconds instead of 2.5, barely worth it but can save you from getting it if you're patient enough to wait for it to SLOWWWWWLY tick back down every time you get to a ledge) and a few crafting things along with that dragonkin boss and some item I forget above the little temple thingy with the basilisks in it. Then there's also the putrid spirit in the grand cloister, but save him for when you can just annihilate him quickly with blasphemous blade or comet azur or something cause he SUCKS. All the fun of a regular putrid tree spirit's bullshit plus the ability to spam rot clouds everywhere.


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## MFB

I forgot about that spirit because honestly, to TRIGGER the spirit to come out you have to contract scarlet rot to begin with - so you're starting a fight with a disadvantage that you constantly have to keep an eye on. I'd love to kill it because fuck that guy, but it's not proven to be really worthwhile so far.

Also - I think you guys are thinking of the wrong area, I'm at the rot rivers at the bottom of Haligtree not the Lake of Rot that leads to Astel/Grand Cloister etc. I did that area forever and made my way through without too much trouble, but yeah, it also wasn't any fun either. I went back when I had higher immunity/robustness to fight the Dragonkin soldier, the first time I just made it through to the other side and said "fuck it, I don't need to explore the other areas."


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## Wc707

MFB said:


> I forgot about that spirit because honestly, to TRIGGER the spirit to come out you have to contract scarlet rot to begin with - so you're starting a fight with a disadvantage that you constantly have to keep an eye on. I'd love to kill it because fuck that guy, but it's not proven to be really worthwhile so far.
> 
> Also - I think you guys are thinking of the wrong area, I'm at the rot rivers at the bottom of Haligtree not the Lake of Rot that leads to Astel/Grand Cloister etc. I did that area forever and made my way through without too much trouble, but yeah, it also wasn't any fun either. I went back when I had higher immunity/robustness to fight the Dragonkin soldier, the first time I just made it through to the other side and said "fuck it, I don't need to explore the other areas."


Oh yeah, I haven't been to the bottom of the Haligtree but working towards it
I'm in the process of tackling Niall and his goon squad for the final medallion piece. Fuck peg-leg Pete


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## MFB

Fucking oof my dude, the Niall fight sucked dick, I did that late in the game and it still took my multiple tries


----------



## sakeido

I used a skip to just avoid that fuckhead completely

Not sure if they fixed it or not but you could go to that shack at the western edge of the mountaintop of giants and jump off, you'd land in an area covered by a Stake of Marika and just respawn in the consecrated snowfield. I went back much later and nuked Niall just for the achievement but man oh man he was the absolute worst boss in the game imo


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## Wc707

MFB said:


> Fucking oof my dude, the Niall fight sucked dick, I did that late in the game and it still took my multiple tries


It's the damn knights. Once they were gone, Niall wasn't _awful, _albeit manageable bit getting the knights asap is hard. They're super aggressive and the dual-wielding one is a dick.


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## Wc707

sakeido said:


> I used a skip to just avoid that fuckhead completely
> 
> Not sure if they fixed it or not but you could go to that shack at the western edge of the mountaintop of giants and jump off, you'd land in an area covered by a Stake of Marika and just respawn in the consecrated snowfield. I went back much later and nuked Niall just for the achievement but man oh man he was the absolute worst boss in the game imo


Mayne if it comes to that, I may.

I've seen videos of people shooting Niall with arrows on another part of the castle. Just can't bring myself to cheese him that way yet.


----------



## Mathemagician

sakeido said:


> Sewer Mogh is still there even if you beat Moghwyn Mogh first.. I think the fan theory right now is that he's a projection or something and not the actual guy, because he never makes a noise when you fight him down there. I beat Mogh without even bothering to put the curse remedy thingy in my flask.. I just ran in to fight him thinking it'd take a few tries but I absolutely mopped the floor with him on my first go. Just healed through the curse with my flask.
> 
> 
> Teleporter to Mogh is at the western tip of the snowfield. You have to kill the Sanguine Nobel for it to activate too. To move Millicent to Haligtree, you have to beat the Godskin Apostle in the windmill village then reload the grace that appears, she'll be there.. then she appears at one of the Mountain of Giants graces, can't remember which, then the prayer room grace at the Haligtree then she'll move to where the ulcerated tree spirit is after you beat it.
> 
> I have no idea at all how From thought anybody would be able to figure out these quests without a guide



Did not know this. Deleted Leyndell Mihg and just thought “this is it?”




Wc707 said:


> It's the damn knights. Once they were gone, Niall wasn't _awful, _albeit manageable bit getting the knights asap is hard. They're super aggressive and the dual-wielding one is a dick.



I accidentally read a comment that said “let your summon draw the boss and take out the knights. I haven’t even done this fight yet, but apparently that’s the accepted level-appropriate way to take it down.


----------



## MFB

That's what I did, I popped Mimic immediately and he kept the boss distracted while I took out the two sword knight first, and then crit'd the shield knight to get Niall alone. By that point, MT was down like 1/2 or maybe 1/3 of his health which was a bit scary to see; usually it's two of us tag teaming one enemy, but that fight legitimately divides you up and once you're reunited it's like, "oh yeah, you might just have been getting your shit kicked in."


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I forgot about that spirit because honestly, to TRIGGER the spirit to come out you have to contract scarlet rot to begin with - so you're starting a fight with a disadvantage that you constantly have to keep an eye on. I'd love to kill it because fuck that guy, but it's not proven to be really worthwhile so far.
> 
> Also - I think you guys are thinking of the wrong area, I'm at the rot rivers at the bottom of Haligtree not the Lake of Rot that leads to Astel/Grand Cloister etc. I did that area forever and made my way through without too much trouble, but yeah, it also wasn't any fun either. I went back when I had higher immunity/robustness to fight the Dragonkin soldier, the first time I just made it through to the other side and said "fuck it, I don't need to explore the other areas."


You have to kill that one to progress Millicent’s quest. Just aggro him and run back onto the branch several yards and take him out with a bow or spells. I got him to half health with comet azur by creeping out on the overhang till he spawned and immediately casting that, and then ran for the branch and finished him off with glintstone pebbles. On my strength build I took him out with the pulley crossbow and like 300 arrows, and on faith/dex builds I always had a bow properly leveled up and took him out with far fewer arrows.

If you’re a melee build and didn’t invest in any ranged then have fun, I hate those fights so much even when there’s no rot involved and you can summon.


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> That's what I did, I popped Mimic immediately and he kept the boss distracted while I took out the two sword knight first, and then crit'd the shield knight to get Niall alone. By that point, MT was down like 1/2 or maybe 1/3 of his health which was a bit scary to see; usually it's two of us tag teaming one enemy, but that fight legitimately divides you up and once you're reunited it's like, "oh yeah, you might just have been getting your shit kicked in."


Yeah, most of my Niall kills have involved the mimic dying at about the same time as his two summons. Fortunately niall’s attacks are very repetitive and easily dodged. Just, they tend to hit you for almost your entire health bar if you mess up. I’ve always heard you can use a bewitching branch on the adds so they attack him and he kills them for you, but never tried it myself.


----------



## sakeido

wankerness said:


> Yeah, most of my Niall kills have involved the mimic dying at about the same time as his two summons. Fortunately niall’s attacks are very repetitive and easily dodged. Just, they tend to hit you for almost your entire health bar if you mess up. I’ve always heard you can use a bewitching branch on the adds so they attack him and he kills them for you, but never tried it myself.


It works awesome. Bewitching branches have a long windup on the attack but it works out great - you can run up to where the two sword guy appears and start the attack just before he solidifies then you're good. No need to do the shield knight too, he's a chump anyway. If two sword guy does his propeller attack on Niall it'll wipe out almost 40% of his lifebar in one attack.

Only issue is, Niall will dispel them once he's below half health so you can't just win the fight like that. I've heard of people stunlocking him so he can't do the dispel but I never got that to work. Even if you use an ash of your own, he does mostly AOE attacks that'll kill you in one hit so he's not exactly a pushover. I didn't figure the fight out quickly enough and ran out of branches before I downed him. You can only get a few (maybe 12 at most? and that's if you start with bewitching branches as your keepsake) on a playthrough too so you need to get the Niall part of the fight figured out before you start burning branches on it.


----------



## wankerness

sakeido said:


> It works awesome. Bewitching branches have a long windup on the attack but it works out great - you can run up to where the two sword guy appears and start the attack just before he solidifies then you're good. No need to do the shield knight too, he's a chump anyway. If two sword guy does his propeller attack on Niall it'll wipe out almost 40% of his lifebar in one attack.
> 
> Only issue is, Niall will dispel them once he's below half health so you can't just win the fight like that. I've heard of people stunlocking him so he can't do the dispel but I never got that to work. Even if you use an ash of your own, he does mostly AOE attacks that'll kill you in one hit so he's not exactly a pushover. I didn't figure the fight out quickly enough and ran out of branches before I downed him. You can only get a few (maybe 12 at most? and that's if you start with bewitching branches as your keepsake) on a playthrough too so you need to get the Niall part of the fight figured out before you start burning branches on it.


I never found a bewitching branch in the wild besides off a vendor, but you do get a cookbook that lets you make them at some point. I think maybe you can get it from Godfrey somehow, cause it unlocks at the bell bearing vendor after he disappears.

EDIT: Google says he gives it to you if you talk to him after getting to Moghwyn Dynasty Mausoleum.


----------



## Leviathus

Finally got around to soloing Radagon/EB last night and got the Ranni ending. Things sure do get easier with +10 moonveil and +25 cold uchi in the left hand. Struggled more on Godfrey/Horah Loux. That phase 2 with all the command grabs is pretty scary. I love/hate how he throws you up in the air and slams you down. Still have a few loose ends (loose M's i guess you could say) to tie up but gonna get back to a fth/str character i started and go for the chaos ending. Closing in on the plat but taking my sweet time.

Also... 213 hours and i think i've gotten 2 rune arc drops from rats, god damn they're hard to farm in single player.


----------



## MFB

I got Mohgwyn's health down to like, under his name a couple times last night, but dude packs a punch towards the end and he just starts spewing that BS rot/flames all over the arena so you have to play ranged. Latenna actually did a good bit to him when I used her, but unfortunately she also got FUCKED when he started attacking her and wouldn't let up. 

Pretty sure there's also no way to avoid his BS phase transition when he steals health back, or else I would have had the fight over by the third time


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I got Mohgwyn's health down to like, under his name a couple times last night, but dude packs a punch towards the end and he just starts spewing that BS rot/flames all over the arena so you have to play ranged. Latenna actually did a good bit to him when I used her, but unfortunately she also got FUCKED when he started attacking her and wouldn't let up.
> 
> Pretty sure there's also no way to avoid his BS phase transition when he steals health back, or else I would have had the fight over by the third time


His phase transition is avoided by that flask ingredient from the invader i was talking about. you just pop the flask after you have the three rings on you. he still heals but you don't take damage.

It's kind of funny that for a blood god or whatever he is he's weak to bleed damage.


----------



## wankerness

Leviathus said:


> Finally got around to soloing Radagon/EB last night and got the Ranni ending. Things sure do get easier with +10 moonveil and +25 cold uchi in the left hand. Struggled more on Godfrey/Horah Loux. That phase 2 with all the command grabs is pretty scary. I love/hate how he throws you up in the air and slams you down. Still have a few loose ends (loose M's i guess you could say) to tie up but gonna get back to a fth/str character i started and go for the chaos ending. Closing in on the plat but taking my sweet time.
> 
> Also... 213 hours and i think i've gotten 2 rune arc drops from rats, god damn they're hard to farm in single player.


Elden Beast sucks cause it's immune to bleed and very strong against flame (and especially holy). Is it immune to frost procs too? I ended up spamming both radagon and him with a +25 claymore with the flame of the redmane weapon art on it, basically chain staggered him. It didn't do a lot of damage cause I was an int build and cause i think it's at least partially flame damage, but the stagger made it so i and the mimic were able to beat them both down pretty easily. If I'd been a str/faith build it would have been way more effective. It didn't do a ton of damage but they'd both stagger after like 3-4 casts of it and it's very cheap and has decent range and speed. Probably a good candidate for something that might get nerfed, I'd say it's nearly as OP as hoarfrost stomp used to be, I guess it's just most people aren't aware of it yet.


----------



## Leviathus

wankerness said:


> Is it immune to frost procs too?


Idk for sure but seems like it. I didn't get one, but definitely got one on Radagon and had like 10 drinks left going into EB so i popped Morgott's great rune and L1'd him to death. Def got lucky with the RNG too, didn't see much of his low lifebar moveset.


----------



## Wc707

Rocked Nialls shit last night 
Mimic went ham on shield knight and I got dual-sworld knight aggro'd enough where I could take him out alone. Mimic got Nialls health to half and I took it from there.

Went to the secret path to Haligtree and Consecrated Snowfield. Damn, talk about bigger than I thought. I didn't even explore much of secret path yet, just wanted to get the portal to Moghwyn Palace. 
Got Millicent and Alexander's questlines line progressed far enough I just need to see them at the Haligtree.

Feel like this game gives me ADD for some reason bouncing from one area to another then going back


----------



## MFB

I took down Mohg last night, that physick ingredient really nerfed the fight to the point of trivial; and yeah, I'm absolutely baffled that From would make a boss called The Lord of Blood and have him WEAK to Bleed damage? By the end of the fight he was just spamming Bloodflame which got real old fast, but Mimic distracted him enough that I could just wail on him. Crazy amount of runes too, like, holy shit, I can only imagine how many levels I'd have gotten if i didn't do it at 166.


----------



## Mathemagician

I look forward to eventually getting to a level where I take off the golden rune accessory that boosts how many runes you get. Eating up a whole spot, but that 20% more tho.


----------



## Wc707

Mathemagician said:


> I look forward to eventually getting to a level where I take off the golden rune accessory that boosts how many runes you get. Eating up a whole spot, but that 20% more tho.


What's the name of this and where can I find it??


----------



## Mathemagician

I had to look it up too. Golden Scarab in the abandoned cave in Caelid.


----------



## wankerness

I had that thing on nearly 100% of the time on every character as soon as I could get it. Always felt like I was wasting a boss kill if I had didn't get that 20% extra runes. If I was incredibly fast manipulating menus I guess I could equip it between killing the boss and getting the runes, but I can't see myself doing that.

It's too bad, since there's actually a lot of talismans that are pretty good for most builds. Gotta get those runes, though! I usually only swapped it if I was trying to farm a rare drop and then I'd just switch it for the silver one.


----------



## Mathemagician

There’s a silver one in ER? Donde?


----------



## MFB

I wish you could stack Talismans, not really sure why they said no to that, maybe they thought it'd nerf too much of the fights? Not sure how much a +1 and +2 together would really change some of them in the endgame.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Man, I’ve never played the previous games in this series (is it a series?) but all the talk about it has me interested-

I’m fucking lost reading these posts.  

I’m assuming there’s a lot of crafting in this game with the goal to have specific builds to conquer certain levels/bosses? 

I’m trying to decide if I want to get it or not. Everything about the way it looks in screenshots looks like it’d be up my alley, but I don’t always fair so well when crafting comes into play. Like with God Of War I just kept maxing out my armor/strength as much as possible and muscled my way through the game, I never changed armor or runes for specific things, I’d probably have to keep a notebook in front of me to keep track of everything. 

Is this kind of like D&D where you’re summoning shit? I don’t think I’ll have to be talked into it too hard, just kind of want to know what I’m getting myself into before I drop $70 on it, get an hour or two into it and say “Fuck this”


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> There’s a silver one in ER? Donde?


Hidden path to the haligtree. If you fall off the broken guardrail onto that invisible walkway, it's behind an illusionary wall on one of the two side rooms (there's a boss down there too if you follow the path all the way to the end)


----------



## wankerness

RevDrucifer said:


> Man, I’ve never played the previous games in this series (is it a series?) but all the talk about it has me interested-
> 
> I’m fucking lost reading these posts.
> 
> I’m assuming there’s a lot of crafting in this game with the goal to have specific builds to conquer certain levels/bosses?
> 
> I’m trying to decide if I want to get it or not. Everything about the way it looks in screenshots looks like it’d be up my alley, but I don’t always fair so well when crafting comes into play. Like with God Of War I just kept maxing out my armor/strength as much as possible and muscled my way through the game, I never changed armor or runes for specific things, I’d probably have to keep a notebook in front of me to keep track of everything.
> 
> Is this kind of like D&D where you’re summoning shit? I don’t think I’ll have to be talked into it too hard, just kind of want to know what I’m getting myself into before I drop $70 on it, get an hour or two into it and say “Fuck this”


Crafting is completely optional depending on your build, mostly optional otherwise. On a typical playthrough I only make arrows and sometimes the poison/rot-curing items. There are items you can make which are really good but they're not necessary, especially on a first playthrough.

You need to have a handle on stats (just look up a simple build that sounds fun and work towards that) and weapon upgrades. Basically just when you get a weapon you like figure out if it upgrades with smithing stones or somber smithing stones and then make finding upgrade materials for it a priority. Other than that you pretty much just learn through playing.


----------



## MFB

One thing I also didn't realize until I leveled my weapon to +25, is that not all weapons get up to an S rank for scaling; my axe only got up to a B on STR scaling, while I'm sure there's other regular weapons that get up to A (although every build I've looked up says all the best scaling weapons are either Great/Colossal which I don't care for the trade off of speed vs. power)


----------



## wankerness

MFB said:


> I wish you could stack Talismans, not really sure why they said no to that, maybe they thought it'd nerf too much of the fights? Not sure how much a +1 and +2 together would really change some of them in the endgame.


Probably just to force variety, it's been like that in all the dark souls games with + variants of rings. It made more sense in DS when there were + variants of the ones that increased soul drops and weapon damage, would have been ridiculous to just stack +5, +10, +15% attack damage, probably no one would have ever used anything else. Here it would mainly be useful for negating damage from things like Elden Beast (you can REALLY dent the damage he does with holy resist talismans and resistance spells).


MFB said:


> One thing I also didn't realize until I leveled my weapon to +25, is that not all weapons get up to an S rank for scaling; my axe only got up to a B on STR scaling, while I'm sure there's other regular weapons that get up to A (although every build I've looked up says all the best scaling weapons are either Great/Colossal which I don't care for the trade off of speed vs. power)


Yeah, that's normal with these games too. That's one thing the wiki's good for, seeing what things have for scaling at max level. I think basically no unique melee weapon is S scaling for anything other than a couple weird gimmick weapons like those weightless faith fists.


----------



## Mathemagician

Oh ok I’m not there yet. I gotta climb the snow fort. That rather unique pathway to the star spell in the mountains was a challenge, lol. But didn’t die!


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Oh ok I’m not there yet. I gotta climb the snow fort. That rather unique pathway to the star spell in the mountains was a challenge, lol. But didn’t die!


Gotta say that path is a LOT more forgiving than the awful ones in crystal caves in Dark Souls 1. Not only is it three times wider, but you can actually see the outline in the weather when it starts curving clearly. Also you can use hoarfrost stomp and that only shows up where it's safe to walk. I died on that section once on all my playthroughs and it was cause I was stomping to the left and stomped myself right off the ledge.


----------



## Mathemagician

RevDrucifer said:


> Man, I’ve never played the previous games in this series (is it a series?) but all the talk about it has me interested-
> 
> I’m fucking lost reading these posts.
> 
> I’m assuming there’s a lot of crafting in this game with the goal to have specific builds to conquer certain levels/bosses?
> 
> I’m trying to decide if I want to get it or not. Everything about the way it looks in screenshots looks like it’d be up my alley, but I don’t always fair so well when crafting comes into play. Like with God Of War I just kept maxing out my armor/strength as much as possible and muscled my way through the game, I never changed armor or runes for specific things, I’d probably have to keep a notebook in front of me to keep track of everything.
> 
> Is this kind of like D&D where you’re summoning shit? I don’t think I’ll have to be talked into it too hard, just kind of want to know what I’m getting myself into before I drop $70 on it, get an hour or two into it and say “Fuck this”



Have you played Zelda BOTW? It’s an open world RPG similar but it’s got NES level difficulty due to a few mechanics. Namely when you dodge you are invincible briefly.

But it’s not like a devil may cry game where your character is super fast like a ninja. In ER your character is kind of weighty. They move more like a character in older monster Hunter games where attacks have to be deliberate because you are stuck in your attack animation until it ends.

Lots of people try to play it at first like an action game. Nah, 2-4 hits and you’re dead. Early bosses can one-shot you due to low hp.

But if you boost your your health and endurance you can both take more hits and wear heavier armor, thereby scaling the games difficulty.

It’s a long-winded way of saying that if you like exploring dungeons and little hand-holding it scratches that itch. But it’s not a super-fast game relative to like something by platinum games.

It’s not really “hard” it’s just slower paced combat than some people expect. IE you get off like 1 spell and then have to roll away and set up again.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Have you played Zelda BOTW? It’s an open world RPG similar but it’s got NES level difficulty due to a few mechanics. Namely when you dodge you are invincible briefly.
> 
> But it’s not like a devil may cry game where your character is super fast like a ninja. In ER your character is kind of weighty. They move more like a character in older monster Hunter games where attacks have to be deliberate because you are stuck in your attack animation until it ends.
> 
> Lots of people try to play it at first like an action game. Nah, 2-4 hits and you’re dead. Early bosses can one-shot you due to low hp.
> 
> But if you boost your your health and endurance you can both take more hits and wear heavier armor, thereby scaling the games difficulty.
> 
> It’s a long-winded way of saying that if you like exploring dungeons and little hand-holding it scratches that itch. But it’s not a super-fast game relative to like something by platinum games.
> 
> It’s not really “hard” it’s just slower paced combat than some people expect. IE you get off like 1 spell and then have to roll away and set up again.


I would be REALLY curious to see footage of that guy who popped into the thread the other day to say he tried it, died like 40 times, and gave up without getting anywhere. What are they doing?! Trying to man-mode in swinging in big enemy groups over and over?


----------



## Mathemagician

Basically what happens. They pick a cool/big weapon and start swinging. Well with low stamina you only get 2-3 swings and a single roll. Meanwhile the enemy just circled around you while you hit the air. One or two snacks from a skeleton with a broken sword and your character goes tits up. 

New players likely don’t know/use the lock-on as action games don’t have it. So they run in and spam attacks and then get 2 shot by a level 1 enemy. Or they walk right TF off the edge of the level. Then blame the game for not having invisible walls.


----------



## Bloody_Inferno

Mathemagician said:


> It’s not really “hard” it’s just slower paced combat than some people expect.



Pretty much. I'd even argue go as far as say it's meditative. Souls games teach you to be more calculating and tactical rather than just bum rush in Kratos style. You have to fight smart, constantly watch yourself and your actions. And as a result, the slow pace actually feels meditative to me. 

Elden Ring may be the most pronounced example. Right off the bat the game teases you with a horseback boss you think you can take on if you're a newcomer. It actually reminded me back when I was playing Ultima Underword Stygian Abyss, since that game also made me rethink my gameplay style in a similar way. I also died a lot in that game too.


----------



## Mathemagician

Oh yeah, no one tells you that early on if you see a boss or really hard enemies - just go another way, lol. 

Still the best Zelda game I’ve ever played.


----------



## narad

started NG+, wound up running through stormveil and defeating all those guys, and going to the redmayne castle thinking I'd get to fight radahn but the scenario was different this time through and the castle was full of enemies and a boss. But it's crazy doing this in a single sitting when that was like 2-3 weeks of my first playthrough. I died once and that's when I fell off a cliff. I love running through these guys with all the new tricks, especially bloodhound step and the relic sword maxed out. I'm not sure what that art scales with but it was pretty strong right-out with my faith-based build, then taking it up to +10 made it insane. I wonder when it's going to stop being like full-on easy mode. 

But at the same time, besides kicking ass, not much to do since the runes required to level are super high and I already have all the cool gear. Basically only thing I ever get that I appreciate are sacred tears, and maybe memory stones if those are also adding onto my current set of memorable spells.


----------



## destroyerdogs

wankerness said:


> Fia (i know the lichdragon is locked behind her quest, maybe the fia's champions too, plus there are some good items if you do the interlocking D quest)


Lichdragon isn't actually locked behind her quest. I didn't do her quest and couldn't find her in the boss arena after killing Fia's Champions. But she was there so I could trigger the Lichdragon fight when I came back on a whim later in the game.


----------



## Leviathus

Spent a good chunk of the evening collecting all the legendary achievement items. So much easier when you don't have to do covenant stuff or get to the end of ng+2. Just need the chaos ending and the plat's mine.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Mathemagician said:


> Have you played Zelda BOTW? It’s an open world RPG similar but it’s got NES level difficulty due to a few mechanics. Namely when you dodge you are invincible briefly.
> 
> But it’s not like a devil may cry game where your character is super fast like a ninja. In ER your character is kind of weighty. They move more like a character in older monster Hunter games where attacks have to be deliberate because you are stuck in your attack animation until it ends.
> 
> Lots of people try to play it at first like an action game. Nah, 2-4 hits and you’re dead. Early bosses can one-shot you due to low hp.
> 
> But if you boost your your health and endurance you can both take more hits and wear heavier armor, thereby scaling the games difficulty.
> 
> It’s a long-winded way of saying that if you like exploring dungeons and little hand-holding it scratches that itch. But it’s not a super-fast game relative to like something by platinum games.
> 
> It’s not really “hard” it’s just slower paced combat than some people expect. IE you get off like 1 spell and then have to roll away and set up again.



I haven’t played BOTW, though I do have a huge love for the original NES Zelda! 

Checking out some other reviews it mentions a lot about exploring and discovering, which is something I definitely dig about games, especially if they’re in a more mystical/ancient ruins kind of setting. That’s easily my favorite aspect of God of War, or Myst, back in the day. 

I’ll probably give this a go tonight, as if I need anything else to distract me from working in the studio.


----------



## wankerness

Back to this, finishing off my 5th character. Died to Melania more than on my other four playthroughs combined! Jesus. I guess I got really lucky with my first dual-katana kill. This time, it was just death after death. Either she'd keep dodging and weaving across the room every time I tried to hit her, resulting in the mimic tear dying before phase 2, or she'd target me with waterfowl dance and that was GG since I didn't have a bloodhound step setup. I tried about half my attempts with Tiche (who would randomly just start floating around by herself in the corner and not doing shit to Melania other than shooting the ranged attack at her from far away and missing every time), which was a big mistake despite Tiche having much better evasion abilities than the mimic. The damage on this fight combined with how impossible it is to dodge waterfowl dance unless you back out and start running before she even gives the tell that she's going to cast it really is out of control. I mean, it still only took me like 45 minutes, but I died upwards of 20 times in those 45 minutes!! And man, I LOATHE the bosses in this game that spam huge poison clouds (or rot clouds, even worse) that not only inflict the status on you but do damage to you with every tick, staggering you. Remove at least one of those three effects, IMO. Especially on the gargoyle boss.

I think I might play NG+ on my int character cause that one might have been the most fun, plus I want to get the dung eater and nepheli summons on one character. Dung Eater is supposedly the best one besides Mimic Tear as far as aggro/survivability goes. Though my suspicion is every NG cycle makes summons more and more useless since they cap out on stat increases on NG while boss damage and health just keep on scaling. Guessing they pretty much just die instantly by NG+7.


----------



## Wc707

Went from Brass Shield, Heavy Uchi and Crucible Armor, to right hand Blasphemous Blade and left hand Ordovis's Greatsword rocking Malikeths armor.
Holy shit talk about taking everyone to pound town! Wish I'd played around with these two earlier.


----------



## Leviathus

Started a new playthrough and have been hitting the yellow wishbone and helping folks with bosses in Liurnia. Still getting so many connection errors, hope they patch in some MP stability soon.


----------



## cwhitey2

I'm lvl 94 with 130ish hours in and I'm kinda stuck 

I went with a strength vitality build and kinda regret it. Some enemies/bosses I destroy like nothing, then I get certain ones and can't do shit against them (Ancient Dragon Lansseax) 

I feel like I'm only half way through the game too, as I have not entered Leyndell yet.

I'm enjoy the game and my progress, I'm losing patients hahah. Especially when I read things about people on NG+7 :lol


----------



## wankerness

cwhitey2 said:


> I'm lvl 94 with 130ish hours in and I'm kinda stuck
> 
> I went with a strength vitality build and kinda regret it. Some enemies/bosses I destroy like nothing, then I get certain ones and can't do shit against them (Ancient Dragon Lansseax)
> 
> I feel like I'm only half way through the game too, as I have not entered Leyndell yet.
> 
> I'm enjoy the game and my progress, I'm losing patients hahah. Especially when I read things about people on NG+7 :lol


My first playthrough where I barely used any guides until I started going for the last trophies I got the platinum at around 130 hours, and was about level 175 at that point (the end of one playthrough - on subsequent ones it's usually more like 50 hours/level 150). Are you dying a whole lot, or are you grinding enemies that don't give many runes, or are you really poking into every corner of the map carefully, or what?

What weapons are you using? You're not yet to the point where the game gets really silly hard, that comes after you finish Leyndell. If you're having trouble I'm guessing you've got problems either with your build or your weapon choices. What kind of stats do you have, and what weapon(s)? I think you'd want 30 vigor at the absolute minimum before going into Leyndell (I've aimed for 40 on all subsequent playthroughs since I had a bad time with 30 on first playthrough even though I did make it through), and probably something like 40-50 strength and 25-30 endurance. Endurance is good if you're trying to carry around two huge weapons, but armor's kind of a diminishing returns thing here, too - it does reduce damage, but at some point the incoming damage is such that you'll still get 2-shot by everything even if you're in heavy armor unless you also levelled vigor really high, so armor becomes kind of useless except in PVP for the poise (though poise only works against wimpy weapons).

I'm doing a second strength playthrough, going to avoid cheesing with the fallingstar beast jaw this time.  The early strength weapons are kind of terrible, their range is so bad. Used the brick hammer for a while again, then started using the bloodhound's fang for the wider swings, but thinking I might go back to my fav from DS1/3 and use the Claymore.

Bleed is stupid overpowered so using a strength weapon either that comes with bleed (ex Great Stars) or that you can infuse with bleed (or frost) helps with a ton of enemies. I started seeing really diminishing returns on non-bleed damage at some point around Leyndell.


----------



## Mathemagician

I need to hurry up and beat this game at least once man, lol.

I’m like a billion hour in, level 155 or so on my first character and just running around cleaning up minor dungeons before doing whatever happens at the forge. I got to the Haligtree and just….did not have the patience to inch ever forward so I turned it off. The Mohg area is trying my patience too. I’m about to start looking up some broken ass builds. Well, more broken than Boss Delete Hadoken, mimic and Moonveil I currently use. 

But I also want to beat every boss and double as many items at the Turtle Towers as I can, and beat every single minor dungeon and unlock everything and do every side quest and and and. 

Fuck bro. I absolutely SWORE I wouldn’t do this. Look what I have become.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I need to hurry up and beat this game at least once man, lol.
> 
> I’m like a billion hour in, level 155 or so on my first character and just running around cleaning up minor dungeons before doing whatever happens at the forge. I got to the Haligtree and just….did not have the patience to inch ever forward so I turned it off. The Mohg area is trying my patience too. I’m about to start looking up some broken ass builds. Well, more broken than Boss Delete Hadoken, mimic and Moonveil I currently use.
> 
> But I also want to beat every boss and double as many items at the Turtle Towers as I can, and beat every single minor dungeon and unlock everything and do every side quest and and and.
> 
> Fuck bro. I absolutely SWORE I wouldn’t do this. Look what I have become.


Man, you have a bunch left.

Haligtree’s worst section is the branches at the very beginning. There are some horrible bullshit enemies in the level, but you can skip most of them.


----------



## wankerness

This playthrough has been easy going so far. Been using the greatsword with hoarfrost stomp on it, and primarily just jump attacking everything. Bosses I struggled with on previous playthroughs like the draconic tree sentinel have been getting annihilated. Though I think I’m suddenly going to hit a wall in the consecrated snowfield, as usual, and at that point may have to try getting some bleed weapons or respeccing. But yeah, I’m to Morgott already after about fifteen hours (haven’t started Ranni’s quest or done volcano manor yet). Haven’t done any cheap grinding like bird farming, either, just been killing tons of bosses!

The one thing I have been doing on new characters that’s sort of cheap is going to Caelid right away and killing that hugeass defenseless dragon with a bleed weapon for 75k souls, that’s a big early boost.


----------



## pahulkster

Running through NG+ a little bit at a time. Just beat Radahn so not too far in. Really just want to run through the main bosses again. I heard the difficulty jump is at the snowfield again which would be nice because it's just a massacre at this point. Might respec to use some of the dragon spells. Other than that I'm not sure how else I'd even want to play.


----------



## Mathemagician

Just cheesed Alecto finally. Not a fight I can do ranged and I don’t care about my gamer cred. Got Tiche and ramped her up to 10.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Just cheesed Alecto finally. Not a fight I can do ranged and I don’t care about my gamer cred. Got Tiche and ramped her up to 10.


If they ever fix that exploit, that’s going to be the hardest boss in game for a lot of builds. I got so frustrated with that fight on my int and dex characters that I did the cheese. Just turn off her bleed immunity and it might be doable. As is she has WAY too much health and attacks way too fast for it to be doable unless you play near-perfectly for about five minutes sustained.

Well, unless you play a big strength build and then you can just walk up and R1 her to death with the greatsword. I beat her on faith characters too, but it was scarier and I definitely was doing a combination of blasphemous blade spam and lightning Spears.


----------



## Mathemagician

I used jellyfish shield and my moonveil and just kept letting her throw herself into the corner. I get that the game should have some hard bosses. But idk, for me FromSoft games are all about the level design and lore more than the actual “combat”. Idk how to explain it. Maybe I’m just old and don’t feel like “getting gud”? Oh god. There goes my gamer cred out the window again. Lol, I never beat the lightning dragon king in DS3 either. You design a BS boss? I either cheese it or just skip.


----------



## wankerness

Nameless King is easy with the dragonslayer greatshield, never tried it without. I suspect after the huge emphasis on relentless boss combos and delayed hits in elden ring that he’d seem easy now.


----------



## Flappydoodle

I played up to NG+3 and got the platinum trophy a month ago, then literally just stopped playing. And I have zero desire to get back into it. Kinda weird, right?

I played DS1 and Bloodborne a ton of times and they never get "old". Even though Elden Ring has so much more content, variety etc, it just feels like a slog. It's a lot of effort to start a new playthrough. 

Elden Ring as a blind first playthrough is absolutely magical. One of the best gaming experiences ever IMO. And the second playthrough I consulted a ton of guides to find things I missed. Third I got the platinum trophy. Around 120 hours in total.

Sekiro, on the other hand, I never finished, and it's my least favourite From game. The final Genichiro is just too difficult and the fight is way too long and punishing. I'm just not able to learn every single attack timing, and then not screw up in 3 phases. And if you die, doing the whole damn fight again from scratch is super frustrating. Same for Demon of Hatred. It's just such a damn long fight. Even watching the guys on YouTube who play flawlessly, it's like 6 minutes long. I also kinda hate that there's no build variety or levels. Yeah, I suck and I don't like that I can't tank my way through things, haha.

I'll wait for Elden Ring DLC and I'll definitely play it. But for now, I'm done with the game.


----------



## MFB

Oh boy, time to defend a game that everyone here knows infuriated me to my wit's end.

You're not wrong that they're both long fights, and can be infuriating, that said both are definitely doable. Genichiro IMO was far easier than Demon of Hate was, simply from the fact that he was a person and not 3-4x my size to hit like a god damn freight train on top of fire damage. 

The 1st phase of ISS is just Way of Tomoe that you fight far earlier in the game, nothing you haven't been fighting for ages by this point and you can break that phase without taking any damage easily. Phase 2 of ISS is harder as he sheds and you're fighting the true boss who has a different moveset, but again, from what I remember it's nothing that can't be countered relatively easily; I believe it's a combination of either side-stepping like the other Sword Saints, forward dashing through one of his attacks, or a parrying combo. This one isn't any worse than the other human bosses in the game, but unfortunately it's when you get to Phase 3 that shit goes off the rail. Once he gets his halberd, this is where you have to be on your A-game or he can put you down quickly. I think this is the only phase in the fight that you actually need to use Prosthetics to bridge the gap and put him on edge with his overhead attack, and I believe he has a sweep that you need to Mikiri counter. The gun you basically just need to outrun but that's provided you're in a good spot TO run, so that's a different problem.

Sekiro is one I've thought about replaying, but I don't want to harm myself either as I've beein in a good mood lately 

Elden Ring I definitely fell off on by getting to Maliketh, it's so RNG that it's insane, even with having Blasphemous Claw. I don't think I've ever seen the indicator to use it, and the fact that he moves as quick as he does, I can't imagine switching to an ITEM and using it quick enough to actually deflect it. So it seems like the game shoots itself in the foot for certain builds, and the fact that it may very well mean respec'ing whether you want to or not seems foolish.


----------



## cwhitey2

wankerness said:


> My first playthrough where I barely used any guides until I started going for the last trophies I got the platinum at around 130 hours, and was about level 175 at that point (the end of one playthrough - on subsequent ones it's usually more like 50 hours/level 150). Are you dying a whole lot, or are you grinding enemies that don't give many runes, or are you really poking into every corner of the map carefully, or what?
> 
> What weapons are you using? You're not yet to the point where the game gets really silly hard, that comes after you finish Leyndell. If you're having trouble I'm guessing you've got problems either with your build or your weapon choices. What kind of stats do you have, and what weapon(s)? I think you'd want 30 vigor at the absolute minimum before going into Leyndell (I've aimed for 40 on all subsequent playthroughs since I had a bad time with 30 on first playthrough even though I did make it through), and probably something like 40-50 strength and 25-30 endurance. Endurance is good if you're trying to carry around two huge weapons, but armor's kind of a diminishing returns thing here, too - it does reduce damage, but at some point the incoming damage is such that you'll still get 2-shot by everything even if you're in heavy armor unless you also levelled vigor really high, so armor becomes kind of useless except in PVP for the poise (though poise only works against wimpy weapons).
> 
> I'm doing a second strength playthrough, going to avoid cheesing with the fallingstar beast jaw this time.  The early strength weapons are kind of terrible, their range is so bad. Used the brick hammer for a while again, then started using the bloodhound's fang for the wider swings, but thinking I might go back to my fav from DS1/3 and use the Claymore.
> 
> Bleed is stupid overpowered so using a strength weapon either that comes with bleed (ex Great Stars) or that you can infuse with bleed (or frost) helps with a ton of enemies. I started seeing really diminishing returns on non-bleed damage at some point around Leyndell.


I wouldn't say I'm dying a whole lot, there are certain enemies that deff beta me into the ground lol I'm also looking in every corner of the game. I noticed I missed a few things along the way. I'm primarily using the icerind hatchet (i think I have it +9). I have 40 vigor, 40 strength, maybe 25ish dex. I have bumped up the other stats a little but nothing crazy. I honestly think it's my build that's causing the issues.


----------



## MFB

cwhitey2 said:


> I wouldn't say I'm dying a whole lot, there are certain enemies that deff beta me into the ground lol I'm also looking in every corner of the game. I noticed I missed a few things along the way. I'm primarily using the icerind hatchet (i think I have it +9). I have 40 vigor, 40 strength, maybe 25ish dex. I have bumped up the other stats a little but nothing crazy. I honestly think it's my build that's causing the issues.



Dex or End? I'm assuming you mean Endurance for stamina, or else yeah, those points definitely seem wasted to me. I'm at like 166, and got my Strength to 80 with 50 vigor I think, and then 40 Endurance for a pure unga-bunga STR build (Highlands Axe +25, and Horned Shield combo)


----------



## cwhitey2

Also, I'm fighting Radahn right now....like wtf. I can knock off about 1/4 of his health then I'm murdered.


----------



## cwhitey2

MFB said:


> Dex or End? I'm assuming you mean Endurance for stamina, or else yeah, those points definitely seem wasted to me. I'm at like 166, and got my Strength to 80 with 50 vigor I think, and then 40 Endurance for a pure unga-bunga STR build (Highlands Axe +25, and Horned Shield combo)


My endurance is somewhere around the same as dex (ill have to check when I get home, can't remember off the top of my head). I think I just made a shit build.


----------



## wankerness

cwhitey2 said:


> My endurance is somewhere around the same as dex (ill have to check when I get home, can't remember off the top of my head). I think I just made a shit build.


My reaction to your stats is that they're totally fine, you mainly just should get a different weapon. The icerind hatchet was mainly only good when the game first came out cause Hoarfrost Stomp was insanely overpowered, people would get it and blast it up to +9 and basically never hit enemies with the regular attacks from it. I think those stats are fine, the icerind hatchet just really doesn't hit for very much (it has D strength scaling and B dex scaling, meaning if you're a build with a lot more strength than dex it will be even worse). If you like the Hoarfrost Stomp you're better off getting the ash of war (it's off in a pond by Carian Manor) and putting it on a really damaging weapon with better strength scaling. You should get something HEAVY and do a lot of jump attacks, they tend to be much better at staggering enemies.

With a similar build to yours (I think I had around 40 str, 15 dex, 20 end, 30 vig) I annihilated Radahn by just fighting him off horseback and doing a bunch of jump attacks with a Hoarfrost Stomp-infused Greatsword (it's in a crashed one of those caravan treasure chests in Northwest Caelid, by a bunch of dogs and one bird) while he was distracted with the NPCs. He was at about 25% when he did the phase change meteor and I killed him before he could summon his meteors of bullshit, which are the worst part of the fight by far and were responsible for almost all my deaths on all my other characters. Another good basic strength weapon is the Brick Hammer that you get out of Stormveil Castle. Or the Great Stars mace from the caravan in Altus. Or once you have 60 str, the Giant Crusher from an abandoned camp south of the Capital.

Don't fall into the trap of using unique strength weapons like Grafted Blade Greatsword, most of them kinda suck since in the later game you basically need either frost or bleed to do reasonable damage to any bosses.


----------



## wankerness

Flappydoodle said:


> I played up to NG+3 and got the platinum trophy a month ago, then literally just stopped playing. And I have zero desire to get back into it. Kinda weird, right?
> 
> I played DS1 and Bloodborne a ton of times and they never get "old". Even though Elden Ring has so much more content, variety etc, it just feels like a slog. It's a lot of effort to start a new playthrough.
> 
> Elden Ring as a blind first playthrough is absolutely magical. One of the best gaming experiences ever IMO. And the second playthrough I consulted a ton of guides to find things I missed. Third I got the platinum trophy. Around 120 hours in total.
> 
> Sekiro, on the other hand, I never finished, and it's my least favourite From game. The final Genichiro is just too difficult and the fight is way too long and punishing. I'm just not able to learn every single attack timing, and then not screw up in 3 phases. And if you die, doing the whole damn fight again from scratch is super frustrating. Same for Demon of Hatred. It's just such a damn long fight. Even watching the guys on YouTube who play flawlessly, it's like 6 minutes long. I also kinda hate that there's no build variety or levels. Yeah, I suck and I don't like that I can't tank my way through things, haha.
> 
> I'll wait for Elden Ring DLC and I'll definitely play it. But for now, I'm done with the game.


I'll upload my video of killing Genichiro-Sword Saint sometime, you'll see that you can play like utter dogshit in Sekiro and still succeed! You just need to make sure you always have Rice on you!


----------



## Naxxpipe

Finally getting somewhere in this game. It was an absolute slog up until Rennala for me. It is my first FromSoft game, and I just got absolutely obliterated by every single thing. But now it seems I have "got" the general timing of the game. Most bosses are down in one try now. 
Went into Radahn blind and unbuffed yesterday, and got him to 1/4 health, so I am probably somewhat over leveled at 62.

I am liking it way more now as I am not just getting my shit shoved in at every turn.


----------



## cwhitey2

Finally made it into Leyndell  I haven't had a lot time to explore too much other than getting to the Erdtree Avatar that appears. I cheesed the knight guarding the entrance with poison mist from behind.


----------



## Metropolis

This is the first FromSoftware game I've managed or even been interested to play this far, currently at level 92 dex/int build mostly with Moonveil katana. Just finished Ranni's quest and Leyndell the Royal Capital yesterday.


----------



## Mathemagician

Spoilers.




So I finally beat it. (PS5). I save-scummed all the endings. And man, the endings sucked. The ending idea for the two non-lord endings were good concepts. But 15 second cinema with like 8 lines of dialogue and then boom credits.

If the last episode of GOT was a game ending this would be it. “U da king now, da end”.

But if a letdown for all that work. I mean FromSoft games have never had “great” endings. But like they didn’t even fucking try to pretend they tried. Thank god the rest of the game was so damn good.

All in all an imperfect 10/10 for me. No such thing as a perfect game. But this is the best Zelda-style game I’ve ever played. So much fun and so much to do. If I had played this as a kid I’d easily be discovering more and more stuff on repeat playthroughs.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> Spoilers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So I finally beat it. (PS5). I save-scummed all the endings. And man, the endings sucked. The ending idea for the two non-lord endings were good concepts. But 15 second cinema with like 8 lines of dialogue and then boom credits.
> 
> If the last episode of GOT was a game ending this would be it. “U da king now, da end”.
> 
> But if a letdown for all that work. I mean FromSoft games have never had “great” endings. But like they didn’t even fucking try to pretend they tried. Thank god the rest of the game was so damn good.
> 
> All in all an imperfect 10/10 for me. No such thing as a perfect game. But this is the best Zelda-style game I’ve ever played. So much fun and so much to do. If I had played this as a kid I’d easily be discovering more and more stuff on repeat playthroughs.



The endings for this game are no worse than any of their other games. Indeed, they're a lot better than Dark Souls 1 especially. I've seen 4 of them, I think (the three required for the trophy and then the one where you become the dung eater). I think at least the frenzied flame one is really cool visually.

That said, they're not good. I never got into the plot of this thing but I have looked at a handful of lore videos. Some of the stuff out there is really cool and I missed it entirely on my several playthroughs (like I never registered the giant fishy thing at the throne of the prince of death).

I beat Malenia again yesterday on my sixth character, this time as a strength build for the first time (my previous strength build I got frustrated and respecced dual katanas/bleed). I tried a variety of dual-colossal sword setups and the one that eventually worked was a blood-enchanted Watchdog Greatsword dual wielded with a Cold Greatsword with Bloodhound's Step. It was ridiculously RNG-dependent - she swoops around all over the place all the goddam time and some attempts I'd miss like 10 jump attacks in a row and others I'd hit her with most of them. I did successfully evade waterfowl dance on a couple of attempts, but usually I just got killed by it instantly or she'd get two of them off before the phase transition so my stupid spirit would then suicide as soon as she did the flower explosion phase change (seriously I wish this game had better ways to command ashes, even just the rudimentary "go stand over there" command that most games with helper NPCs have). Eventually the stars aligned and I got an attempt where she got knocked out of every single waterfowl dance so it took two entire flower explosion/clouds before my stupid spirit managed to die.

Once I finish this game (just have the second half of Crumbling Farum left and then the last story bosses) I might finally be done with this game till there's some DLC or content added for NG+. Still haven't started a single NG+ since it's totally pointless other than getting a second one of the various unique weapons if you want to dual wield greatswords or rivers of blood or whatever. DS2 still has BY FAR the best replay value of this series when it comes to NG+, but DS3 is a distant second and it's so weird that this was such a huge step back from DS3. It's almost as bad as Sekiro.


----------



## Wc707

Started a 2nd character as dual uchis dex/arc. Did str/fth the first time using Ordovis' greatsword and Blasphemous blade and it is a different approach to fighting battles now. I'm still getting used to the L1 combo hit box and moves, but Bloody Slash just obliterates bosses and enemies. I kinda like the pacing with power-stancing and how much more aggressive I have to be.


----------



## Mathemagician

I’m waffling on taking my character in NG+ mode. I completed every single quest and side every single dungeon on my first playthrough. Platinum’d it as well. 

So while I wouldn’t mind replaying I’d want to keep my stuff and respec to more powerful/OP stuff versus just starting over again. 

I did the frenzied flame ending last and so now I have glowing eyes while I run around until I decide what to do. 

Played through as a mage this time so may actually try and go melee. I wish there was a katana that inflicted scarlet rot, lol. 

Running around with death poker and sword of Milo’s power stances atm. I swap Death poker for blasphemous blade sometimes, that thing is too fun.


----------



## Wc707

Mathemagician said:


> I’m waffling on taking my character in NG+ mode. I completed every single quest and side every single dungeon on my first playthrough. Platinum’d it as well.
> 
> So while I wouldn’t mind replaying I’d want to keep my stuff and respec to more powerful/OP stuff versus just starting over again.
> 
> I did the frenzied flame ending last and so now I have glowing eyes while I run around until I decide what to do.
> 
> Played through as a mage this time so may actually try and go melee. I wish there was a katana that inflicted scarlet rot, lol.
> 
> Running around with death poker and sword of Milo’s power stances atm. I swap Death poker for blasphemous blade sometimes, that thing is too fun.


I debated NG+ as well because of possible DLC. Didn't wanna get hammered too hard cause of a difficulty spike. 

Ive had fun with combat and having to research where stuff is on my new build. Kinda a slog to get through some areas, but it's still challenging. 

Was afraid having all those toys at my disposal would make me lose interest.


----------



## wankerness

My problem with NG+ is since there's no new gear, there's no progression happening anymore when you do it. A lot of the fun for me in this game is building out the character and collecting gear, if there's nothing left to collect and your stat increases no longer have much of any effect (like after level 150 or so). I don't find it very interesting going on a steamrolling tour of the same content for minimal stat increases. I mean, having a character with 80 str/80 dex/80 int/80 faith that doesn't need to respec could be fun, but still seems a lot duller than starting from scratch.


----------



## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I’m waffling on taking my character in NG+ mode. I completed every single quest and side every single dungeon on my first playthrough. Platinum’d it as well.
> 
> So while I wouldn’t mind replaying I’d want to keep my stuff and respec to more powerful/OP stuff versus just starting over again.
> 
> I did the frenzied flame ending last and so now I have glowing eyes while I run around until I decide what to do.
> 
> Played through as a mage this time so may actually try and go melee. I wish there was a katana that inflicted scarlet rot, lol.
> 
> Running around with death poker and sword of Milo’s power stances atm. I swap Death poker for blasphemous blade sometimes, that thing is too fun.


There are a couple weapons that do scarlet rot, I think they're mostly called "Rotten [X]." I used a pokey one, Antspur Rapier, that you get off the NPC that's in the field off to the west of the shaded castle on one boss that was weak to Scarlet Rot (the golden version of Godfrey) but otherwise haven't messed with it at all. I think most bosses are immune to it, making it a bad thing to build around.


----------



## Wc707

wankerness said:


> My problem with NG+ is since there's no new gear, there's no progression happening anymore when you do it. A lot of the fun for me in this game is building out the character and collecting gear, if there's nothing left to collect and your stat increases no longer have much of any effect (like after level 150 or so). I don't find it very interesting going on a steamrolling tour of the same content for minimal stat increases. I mean, having a character with 80 str/80 dex/80 int/80 faith that doesn't need to respec could be fun, but still seems a lot duller than starting from scratch.


This is what I hem and haw about. The satisfaction of earning or finding new gear is great.


----------



## wankerness

So, there was finally a DLC announement - for free PVP dlc! Zzzzz. I mean, great if you like PVP in these games, but I don't. DS2/3 PVP was occasionally fun when I'd fight invaders, but Elden Ring's is awful cause of the monstrous burst damage everyone can do. 

It's labelled DLC1 in the game files apparently, though, so I'm assuming there will be substantial ones coming eventually. After how great the DLC was in DS1/2/3 and Bloodborne, I have very high hopes.


----------



## Leviathus

Predictable move, though cool nonetheless. I suck at souls pvp, but i'll check it out and get in a few scrims.

I do expect they'll release a proper DLC at some point.


----------



## LostTheTone

I know that there are some mad people who are just into Soulsborne PvP but I have never ever understood why. I guess they must be the same kind of people who are super into fighting games, but given the jankiness and occasional brokeness of FromSoft games it doesn't seem like a good venue for it.

Still, I guess we'll see how things go.

I am really undecided on PvE Elden Ring DLC, leaning towards not buying any that shows up. I recently came back for another playthrough and I really felt that once you don't have exploration to break up the game (ie, you know what to do and where to go) then it's a real slog just bashing these janky bosses.

Perhaps some DLC with a fresh map to explore, and some more considered boss design, will give the game some fresh life? I'unno. I'll wait for the reviews.


----------



## wankerness

I really like playing it repeatedly with different builds/weapons. It certainly loses the "exploration" aspect of that first playthrough, which I think people rightfully say is what makes it the best open-world game since BOTW, but I'm ok with repetitively doing all the stuff and not having much discovery anymore. I love the vibes and the environments and the gameplay enough that I'm more than happy to just keep playing it over and over. And even on playthrough #6 I'm still occasionally happening upon stuff in the world and items I've never seen before.

I find its replay value better than Dark Souls 3, because I don't really like the level design in that one compared to Elden Ring's legacy dungeons or the previous DS games (yeah, I know everyone hates DS2's level design, but I like it for some reason, it's very fast and furious going through everything and there's more variety IMO than in DS3).


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> I really like playing it repeatedly with different builds/weapons. It certainly loses the "exploration" aspect of that first playthrough, which I think people rightfully say is what makes it the best open-world game since BOTW, but I'm ok with repetitively doing all the stuff and not having much discovery anymore. I love the vibes and the environments and the gameplay enough that I'm more than happy to just keep playing it over and over. And even on playthrough #6 I'm still occasionally happening upon stuff in the world and items I've never seen before.
> 
> I find its replay value better than Dark Souls 3, because I don't really like the level design in that one compared to Elden Ring's legacy dungeons or the previous DS games (yeah, I know everyone hates DS2's level design, but I like it for some reason, it's very fast and furious going through everything and there's more variety IMO than in DS3).



I used to be very into doing different builds and styles in From games, but neither DS3 or Elden Ring felt much fun to do that in to me. In both those games I kinda felt like every weapon does just about the same damage (in DPS) so there just doesn't feel like much difference. There are plenty of unique movesets, especially when you include weapon arts, but a lot of weapons just have crappy movesets and unique weapons often have dreadful arts that can't be changed.

It's just... It doesn't have the magic to me, and it leaves me a bit unexcited. It used to feel exciting to do Moonlight Greatsword builds, and I was super stoked to do Luccatiel cosplay in DS2. But in ER I don't feel like I get anything from that.


----------



## NotDonVito

wankerness said:


> So, there was finally a DLC announement - for free PVP dlc! Zzzzz. I mean, great if you like PVP in these games, but I don't. DS2/3 PVP was occasionally fun when I'd fight invaders, but Elden Ring's is awful cause of the monstrous burst damage everyone can do.
> 
> It's labelled DLC1 in the game files apparently, though, so I'm assuming there will be substantial ones coming eventually. After how great the DLC was in DS1/2/3 and Bloodborne, I have very high hopes.


yeah that's why it's fun, who needs skill when i can just spam blasphemous blade over and over and win


----------



## wankerness

NotDonVito said:


> yeah that's why it's fun, who needs skill when i can just spam blasphemous blade over and over and win


These games are designed as primarily PVE experience, the PVP tends to be an afterthought at best. If people enjoy it great. I don't. If I play a game with a huge imaginative world loaded with hundreds of items and monsters, I'd rather spend my time doing that instead of hanging out in one location and spamming emotes at people in between combat experiences that tend to be more frustrating versions of the fake invaders in these games without any of the rewards. If I wanted PVP, I'd go to a game renowned for that, like any one of the million primarily multiplayer shooters or DOTA clones out there.

Of course it takes more skill to win at PVP, but does that make it fun or rewarding? Clearly to people who value these games primarily to test skills, but not me, who likes playing through the levels and fighting monsters. And the ridiculously OP builds here all make the barrier to entry much higher. Like when I dabbled, you basically had to learn to parry rivers of blood, cause 80% of invaders were just going to spam the weapon art on that at you over and over again. If you learn the timing and then can counter all of them, more power to you. There was no in-game reward for it, though, besides runes and runearcs that you could get via plenty of other means.


----------



## LostTheTone

wankerness said:


> These games are designed as primarily PVE experience, the PVP tends to be an afterthought at best



That's an interesting point, but I am reasonably sure that PvP really wasn't well thought through back in the day and From have been forced to just keep on with it. 

But... Has any Soulslike had better PvP? Or better online stuff? Is there actually a good way to do PvP in this kind of game?


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## Mathemagician

I’m just waiting on them to release new bosses for me to nuke. Although I’m sure all the gear I leveled has been nerfed now.


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## LostTheTone

Mathemagician said:


> I’m just waiting on them to release new bosses for me to nuke. Although I’m sure all the gear I leveled has been nerfed now.



Is it cynical of me to say I kinda hope they don't make any new bosses  

I know that From have really good history of making baller DLC bosses, but holy shit if I have to wade through yet another boss who has too much HP, multiple phases, long combos and willfully obtuse attack timing then I'm going to kill someone.


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## wankerness

Mathemagician said:


> I’m just waiting on them to release new bosses for me to nuke. Although I’m sure all the gear I leveled has been nerfed now.


I think the only weapons that really got hit with the nerf bat were Rivers of Blood and Blasphemous Blade's range/damage, and then the stun on Moonveil's weapon art. And all are still plenty overpowered, just not as much as before.

RE: PVP in these games, from everything I hear, DS2's was the best cause the build variety and gear options were so crazy compared to DS1 and 3, and your characters couldn't generally be annihilated in less than 2 seconds like in elden ring. DS1 remastered's PVP is exclusively people exploiting lag to chain backstabs and nothing else, and DS3 seems ok but the fights tend to go on FOREVER cause of how much estus can be used and how low burst damage is relative to Elden Ring. But again, I've only read reports second hand, usually complaining about elden ring. I have very little experience myself, just getting invaded several times in each, usually by people with names like NOOBKILLER who had some crazy twink build and would just mechanically seek you out kill you as fast as possible and then send messages through PS+ like "lol noob." 

I bet DS1's pvp was fun wayyy back in the day, especially before people really knew what they were doing. With elden ring everyone immediately beelined for the most overpowered awful setups like fingerprint shield +block increase items/abilities +bleed spear, or dual spear jumping, or for just general annoyance spamming the rivers of blood weaponart nonstop or that elden beast AOE spell. And moonveil briefly was pretty overpowered in multiplayer thanks to everyone having it and the stun on the weapon art being nuts.


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## wankerness

I'm really rusty with this. My worst experience so far has been the jump sequence to get to the frenzied flame door. I seriously died like 20 times. I hate that so much. I'd previously had a few playthroughs where I got through it first try no problem. The platforms just had some specific order you had to do to make it easy and it's very easy to choose wrong and make it way more difficult.

I died a LOT of times to Maliketh's second phase. Would get him to P2 in like 20 seconds every time without taking more than a hit, then he'd do all his flipping bullshit and I'd get maybe 2 hits on him before dying, usually after over a minute of him constantly jumping way out of range. I hate that fight, and eventually just upgraded Rivers of Blood and said screw it and annihilated him in seconds.

I was also terrible at Hoarah Lux and ended up doing the same thing. I usually think I would annihilate him so fast that he wouldn't have much of a chance to do anything, but here that was not the case. His phase 2 is ridiculous. Just tons of SUPER delayed attacks where it's really hard to not jump the gun on your jump avoidance or rolling and get nailed. The ones where he basically makes the whole floor explode and it hits you for 90% of your health bar (I have 50 vigor) are the most obnoxious. 

I think both of these guys would actually be easier without summoning ashes. Part of the problem is their unpredictability and flipping all over the frickin place ricocheting between you and your mimic. But, I'm just trying to get through the game, not learn bosses for real! It just seems like there's this weird gray area where summons make fights harder unless you have the right setup where they're so overpowered that they totally trivialize the fight and make it end in 30 seconds.

For example, Mohg was funny cause I somehow managed to kill him before he could heal during the phase transition. I've been using the Bloody Helice primarily on this playthrough. It's really good for some specific purposes - mainly fighting NPC invaders and then fights where the boss doesn't jump around and is weak to bleed.


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