# KxK Guitars



## 2liveis2die35 (Dec 18, 2019)

Anyone know what happened to kxk guitars??


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## possumkiller (Dec 18, 2019)

Didn't Technomancer buy all of them in like 2009??


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2019)

@technomancer 

My understanding is that orders dried up and they had to stop building full time due to financial reasons which turned into not building at all (effectively) anymore.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2019)

I was under the impression they were only building very limited numbers...

almost no social media presence...
seems weird. those guitars should be super hot in the current hype scene.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I was under the impression they were only building very limited numbers...
> 
> almost no social media presence...
> seems weird. those guitars should be super hot in the current hype scene.



It's all about timing. 

They were one of the few "good" ones when shit was hitting the fan with BRJ and a couple other forum-famous builders. This lead to fewer orders, since this place and a couple others seemed like their primary customer base. 

They were always terrible at web and social media presenting, and it really hit them hard, IMO. 

I don't think they're building at all anymore. There are a handful of folks out guitars and money, granted they signed up for build runs which explicitly said there was no expected completion date. That's never a good sign.


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 18, 2019)

They're great guitars but their lack of presence makes them a literal who in the flood of brands that have sprung up in the last few years. It's crazy seeing KxK's sit for so long, but when your brand is restricted to the small following it has you can't expect much.

I saw that Redwood Fanned Fret 8 string on a facebook sale group for 1350 as a Black Friday pricing thing, I'll pretty much never own one unless it costs me about that much. Unless you know what they are and *know *that you love them, it's not worth paying anything close to or over 2k when you'll never get that money back if you ever need to sell it.


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## technomancer (Dec 18, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> @technomancer
> 
> My understanding is that orders dried up and they had to stop building full time due to financial reasons which turned into not building at all (effectively) anymore.



Pretty much. I have heard from them occasionally (I've still got a Fede swirl that was one of the last things Herc painted before he passed in progress) but for all intents and purposes they are shut down except for still trying to get existing orders finished. To give you an idea how that is going the swirl predates the outstanding runs by a year or so IIRC 

And yeah, if you only buy guitars intending to flip them then I wouldn't buy one. Typically fantastic instruments, but you're not going to get much if you try to sell one.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 18, 2019)

Man, because of KK Downing, KxK was one of the first smaller luthiers I ever got into.


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## 2liveis2die35 (Dec 18, 2019)

Thanks for the info guys...ive owned a few over the years.they are great instruments and its crazy seeing them sit around reverb for periods of time.i have one left and was trying to sell it but it just sat there for a year and half.finally I just decided to keep it.


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 18, 2019)

If you already own it I'd just keep it, you won't be able to reacquire it for a fair price more than likely. I almost bought that Brazilian Rosewood Neckthrough one from my buddy for a little over 2k, but couldn't afford it at the time because of my move.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 18, 2019)

The kxk that I had was great. I think some of the custom runs probably killed the company. More luthiers need to build to stock and not these impossible runs.


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## Vyn (Dec 18, 2019)

A KxK is still on my bucket list, if only out of pure nostalgia. When I joined this board they were THE shit.


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## Musiscience (Dec 18, 2019)

This is sad to hear, they were such stellar guitars. Still want to try one if I ever get the chance.


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## decoy205 (Dec 18, 2019)

I was wondering this too. Sucks to hear I liked their designs.


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## technomancer (Dec 18, 2019)

Jonathan20022 said:


> If you already own it I'd just keep it, you won't be able to reacquire it for a fair price more than likely. I almost bought that Brazilian Rosewood Neckthrough one from my buddy for a little over 2k, but couldn't afford it at the time because of my move.



That semihollow is actually one of my builds  I actually sold it then bought it back then sold it back to him again. I would probably grab it again but I'm not playing 7s very much and a semihollow 7 would barely get used. It's the same reason I didn't buy that 8 Scale that was super cheap.


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2019)

Yeah, I'm still waiting for my 8 scale from the run like 9 years ago. I haven't heard from Rob since May of 2018. My emails haven't been responded to, but they're not bouncing back, either. At that time the guitar was assembled, and the inlays were done, and it was just needing paint. I wish I had a phone number or some other way of contacting him, so I could see where he is in the process.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I'm still waiting for my 8 scale from the run like 9 years ago. I haven't heard from Rob since May of 2018. My emails haven't been responded to, but they're not bouncing back, either. At that time the guitar was assembled, and the inlays were done, and it was just needing paint. I wish I had a phone number or some other way of contacting him, so I could see where he is in the process.



I'll never understand why builders just hold onto this shit for a million years. 

Obviously they are too busy/apathetic to complete the work, just ship it out in whatever state it's in. There are plenty of folks who can finish it up. 

You'd figure they'd just want it gone and move on with their lives. 

At this point, is it really worse to send out something incomplete vs. nothing at all? From a reputation perspective.


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'll never understand why builders just hold onto this shit for a million years.
> 
> Obviously they are too busy/apathetic to complete the work, just ship it out in whatever state it's in. There are plenty of folks who can finish it up.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I'm not sure. And in this case, the guitar will be ridiculously cool when done. It's the Japanese war flag one, with the kanji numbered fret inlays (like a japanese Jason Becker type of a thing). I would think that Rob would want to wrap this up, get it out there, and then have one last hurrah and ride off into the sunset.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 18, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'll never understand why builders just hold onto this shit for a million years.
> 
> Obviously they are too busy/apathetic to complete the work, just ship it out in whatever state it's in. There are plenty of folks who can finish it up.
> 
> ...


I feel like sending out an unfinished guitar would be worse.

Waiting eternally for a guitar that never comes = get crucified online
Get sent an incomplete guitar = get crucified online, with photographic evidence


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> I feel like sending out an unfinished guitar would be worse.
> 
> Waiting eternally for a guitar that never comes = get crucified online
> Get sent an incomplete guitar = get crucified online, with photographic evidence



Not really. It's not uncommon, and there are some companies that make it a point to send unfinished guitars out, for the customer/luthier to finish. If anything, it gives them more wiggle room, because the last one to touch it will be blamed for most of the stuff. Still, I can understand why they don't, as a policy. But, if you're literally winding down your business, I feel like it would be the right thing to do - either refund the customer, or give them what you've done so far.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 18, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> I feel like sending out an unfinished guitar would be worse.
> 
> Waiting eternally for a guitar that never comes = get crucified online
> Get sent an incomplete guitar = get crucified online, with photographic evidence



Eh, it's not like there aren't detailed pictures and threads on this. If Rob were to claim that Hollowway is full of shit there is tons of evidence to the contrary, and it's not like there's a huge KxK following to back up his claims. 

Not saying Rob would ever do that. He's been pretty honest about not getting this done since the get go.



Hollowway said:


> Not really. It's not uncommon, and there are some companies that make it a point to send unfinished guitars out, for the customer/luthier to finish. If anything, it gives them more wiggle room, because the last one to touch it will be blamed for most of the stuff. Still, I can understand why they don't, as a policy. But, if you're literally winding down your business, I feel like it would be the right thing to do - either refund the customer, or give them what you've done so far.



This. 

It's not like this is some unheard of situation. I've seen plenty of builders throw in the towel and send out whatever they have done just to move on with it. 

Obviously it's not great, but it's much better than having squat after a decade.


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## Randy (Dec 18, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Not really. It's not uncommon, and there are some companies that make it a point to send unfinished guitars out, for the customer/luthier to finish. If anything, it gives them more wiggle room, because the last one to touch it will be blamed for most of the stuff. Still, I can understand why they don't, as a policy. But, if you're literally winding down your business, I feel like it would be the right thing to do - either refund the customer, or give them what you've done so far.



FWIW, I've had builds that had 'issues' late in the project and seemed like they were going to be costly to fix or might need a full rebuild and they stalled as a result.

I mean, my situation is different because most of those were either builds for myself or friends/family/lowbuck builds, but I was always totally honest about it.

That's one of the things missing in the majority of small shops; honesty and humility. It's counterintuitive but I think you get skewered online less admitting you fucked something up and it's going to take time to fix vs the typical pattern of dodging emails/calls indefinitely and crying depression two, three or four years later. 

Most builds are salvageable in some capacity. Either you can do a seamless fix, you can offer your customer a modest discount, or you can offer a rebuild and finish the original one off as a B-stock. If it's super far off, you can probably still offer it to somebody at parts price as a DIY; you won't get all your labor back but you'll at least cover hard costs or at least insulate yourself a little. But those are solutions that require some humility and honesty early on in the process.


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## USMarine75 (Dec 18, 2019)

I have one and it's meh. Beautiful from afar but far from beautiful haha.

The fret side markers are kiesel-esque wonky. Lots of sharp / protruding fret-ends.

And yeah, their resale is shit. I like the Reverb sellers that have them at $3k+. Enjoy sitting on that for an eternity, since similar ones have gone for $1k-1600.


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, it's not like there aren't detailed pictures and threads on this. If Rob were to claim that Hollowway is full of shit there is tons of evidence to the contrary, and it's not like there's a huge KxK following to back up his claims.
> 
> Not saying Rob would ever do that. He's been pretty honest about not getting this done since the get go.



And, I think Rob will eventually finish this. It's just taking a long time because it's not a priority. He's probably not responding to my emails because he hasn't made much progress since last time. But, I'd be surprised if after all this time he just decided to stop the build completely. And, I have to think he wants to see it through, because it is super cool. Maybe I'll find his address, show up at his place while he's out, have a seat in in an arm chair in his living room, and when he comes in a flicks the light on, I'll be like, "Hello, Rob."


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## Hollowway (Dec 18, 2019)

USMarine75 said:


> I have one and it's meh. Beautiful from afar but far from beautiful haha.
> 
> The fret side markers are kiesel-esque wonky. Lots of sharp / protruding fret-ends.



Really? I have a few, and they're all really good. I still have no idea how Rob makes the necks that thin and still fits a truss rod in there. 

Did you buy that one from Brett? That one had a history of damage during shipping, and was later repaired by someone, so that's what kept be away from that particular build.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Eh, it's not like there aren't detailed pictures and threads on this. If Rob were to claim that Hollowway is full of shit there is tons of evidence to the contrary, and it's not like there's a huge KxK following to back up his claims.
> 
> Not saying Rob would ever do that. He's been pretty honest about not getting this done since the get go.
> 
> ...


Oof. I was unaware that unfinished guitars getting shipped was a thing. I understand cutting your losses as a small builder but personally, i would be more upset getting sent something i would have to pay someone else just to finish. Just refund me and own up to the situation. I will appreciate the humility so much more. 

But i suppose integrity is sorely lacking in the world of small time luthiery


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> Oof. I was unaware that unfinished guitars getting shipped was a thing. I understand cutting your losses as a small builder but personally, i would be more upset getting sent something i would have to pay someone else just to finish. Just refund me and own up to the situation. I will appreciate the humility so much more.
> 
> But i suppose integrity is sorely lacking in the world of small time luthiery



That ship has usually long since sailed. 

I'd say 9/10 times financial issues cause builders to flake like this. Refunds aren't an option because there simply isn't any cash. 

So it's either something vs. nothing.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 19, 2019)

Yeah, i couldn't imagine fucking somebody over like that, professionally or otherwise, and being ok with myself.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> Yeah, i couldn't imagine fucking somebody over like that, professionally or otherwise, and being ok with myself.



I give builders a lot of shit, and I'm usually the first one to call them out and am alway pretty cynical about them. 

But...I don't think most of them (really, nearly all) go out there with the intent of fucking people over. They're normal folks who, often from their own poor judgment and ill-conceived plans, just screw up and dig themselves into holes that they're not equipped to dig themselves out of. Pride and ego are definitely a factor for sure. 

I'm sure Rob is just as unhappy about all this as the folks who don't have their guitars. It's still on him to make it right of course.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I give builders a lot of shit, and I'm usually the first one to call them out and am alway pretty cynical about them.
> 
> But...I don't think most of them (really, nearly all) go out there with the intent of fucking people over. They're normal folks who, often from their own poor judgment and ill-conceived plans, just screw up and dig themselves into holes that they're not equipped to dig themselves out of. Pride and ego are definitely a factor for sure.
> 
> I'm sure Rob is just as unhappy about all this as the folks who don't have their guitars. It's still on him to make it right of course.


Oh, i'm sure people go into building with the best of intentions.

I'm not a small business owner, but shouldn't you have some sort of backup plan in case things go haywire? Extra money tucked away? Seems like a good thing to have when your professional reputation is on the line.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> Oh, i'm sure people go into building with the best of intentions.
> 
> I'm not a small business owner, but shouldn't you have some sort of backup plan in case things go haywire? Extra money tucked away? Seems like a good thing to have when your professional reputation is on the line.



Everyone should have a "rainy day" or "oh shit" fund, but that's not how it works IRL unfortunately. 

All it takes is an illness or accident and you're screwed, even if you have insurance.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Everyone should have a "rainy day" or "oh shit" fund, but that's not how it works IRL unfortunately.
> 
> All it takes is an illness or accident and you're screwed, even if you have insurance.


Illness or accidents are excusable. Deciding you're in over your head, saying fuck it, and sending somebody an unfinished guitar or straight up stiffing them, is not.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> Illness or accidents are excusable. Deciding you're in over your head, saying fuck it, and sending somebody an unfinished guitar or straight up stiffing them, is not.



Agreed, but do we even know what happened here?


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Agreed, but do we even know what happened here?


Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I wasn't discussing KxK specifically. I don't know what's going on with him. A 9+ year wait is unfathomably ridiculous, though.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

eggy in a bready said:


> Sorry if it wasn't clear, but I wasn't discussing KxK specifically. I don't know what's going on with him. A 9+ year wait is unfathomably ridiculous, though.



The point still stands. 

We have no idea what typically goes on behind the scenes to these implosions. Again, I doubt they set out to be scammers (at least 9/10 don't), it's hard admitting when you fail, and it's even harder admitting you can't make it right. 

I'm not defending anyone here. Like I said, it's mostly poor planning and decision making that brings builders (and really, most small businesses that fail) down hard.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The point still stands.
> 
> We have no idea what typically goes on behind the scenes to these implosions. Again, I doubt they set out to be scammers (at least 9/10 don't), it's hard admitting when you fail, and it's even harder admitting you can't make it right.
> 
> I'm not defending anyone here. Like I said, it's mostly poor planning and decision making that brings builders (and really, most small businesses that fail) down hard.


We're in total agreement here.


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## USMarine75 (Dec 19, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Really? I have a few, and they're all really good. I still have no idea how Rob makes the necks that thin and still fits a truss rod in there.
> 
> Did you buy that one from Brett? That one had a history of damage during shipping, and was later repaired by someone, so that's what kept be away from that particular build.



Not sure... bought from Reverb seller 2 years ago:


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## 2liveis2die35 (Dec 19, 2019)

Jonathan20022 said:


> If you already own it I'd just keep it, you won't be able to reacquire it for a fair price more than likely. I almost bought that Brazilian Rosewood Neckthrough one from my buddy for a little over 2k, but couldn't afford it at the time because of my move.


That's what I'm going to do.im just going to keep it.it's a awesome guitar no need to get rid of it and lose more than half than what I payed for.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 19, 2019)

Getting a custom guitar as an investment is always a bad idea. A lot of the times second hand guitars retain their original price or cost more is cause its usually the same people bouncing them around, when one or two of them stop then the price starts to drop.

It's crazy seeing these guitars for so much less than their original price. They were revered here for so long and his builds looked great.


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## Ziricote (Dec 19, 2019)

I think problems are enabling these builders all the money up front. There is absolute no reason any builder needs more than $200 up front. Maybe they can ask for another $500 when its time for the hardware down the line. The money is in the build process. Their job is to build, not to sit on your money. If they want money then they need to work just like any trade. You guys enable them by giving too much money in the front. I dont trust builders who do runs. That seems scam to me every time. Its the biggest red flag as history is showing?


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 19, 2019)

Ziricote said:


> I think problems are enabling these builders all the money up front. There is absolute no reason any builder needs more than $200 up front. Maybe they can ask for another $500 when its time for the hardware down the line. The money is in the build process. Their job is to build, not to sit on your money. If they want money then they need to work just like any trade. You guys enable them by giving too much money in the front. I dont trust builders who do runs. That seems scam to me every time. Its the biggest red flag as history is showing?


lmao you have no idea how much wood/hardware costs. A 500$ deposit would barely cover good hardware in a lot of circumstances, let alone hardware plus certain woods.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 19, 2019)

The problem with runs some times is that a builder who is used to doing just a few guitars thinks hey I can make things cheaper if I order a whole bunch of stuff at once. Which is fine...
But then you're all of a sudden on the hook for 10 times your normal output. whoops.


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## Ziricote (Dec 19, 2019)

KnightBrolaire said:


> lmao you have no idea how much wood/hardware costs. A 500$ deposit would barely cover good hardware in a lot of circumstances, let alone hardware plus certain woods.



But hardware isnt needed for 2-9 years so why pay for it up front? 



diagrammatiks said:


> The problem with runs some times is that a builder who is used to doing just a few guitars thinks hey I can make things cheaper if I order a whole bunch of stuff at once. Which is fine...
> But then you're all of a sudden on the hook for 10 times your normal output. whoops.



No the problem is that builder thinks "hey I can buy that new motorcycle if I do a run" is the reality


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 19, 2019)

Ziricote said:


> But hardware isnt needed for 2-9 years so why pay for it up front?
> 
> 
> 
> No the problem is that builder thinks "hey I can buy that new motorcycle if I do a run" is the reality



I don't think we're thinking about the same motorcycles man.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

Ziricote said:


> But hardware isnt needed for 2-9 years so why pay for it up front?



Material costs, taxes, shipping, etc. only goes up in price. If you invoice at a given price, the cost to build will go up in that time and eat into profit. You wait long enough and your margins shrink to be untenable, which is what happens in a lot of cases. 

Not to mention you run the risk of certain pieces becoming unavailable.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 19, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Material costs, taxes, shipping, etc. only goes up in price. If you invoice at a given price, the cost to build will go up in that time and eat into profit. You wait long enough and your margins shrink to be untenable, which is what happens in a lot of cases.
> 
> Not to mention you run the risk of certain pieces becoming unavailable.



Also the whole point is to buy as much hardware as possible. OEM discounts can be above 50 percent sometimes.


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## Randy (Dec 19, 2019)

Ziricote said:


> But hardware isnt needed for 2-9 years so why pay for it up front?



You need the hardware to check fitment while building.


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## xzacx (Dec 19, 2019)

You also have to wonder what percentage of completed custom guitars would ever be paid in full, years later, if those big deposits weren't initially made.


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 19, 2019)

Randy said:


> You need the hardware to check fitment while building.



Shouldn't a competent luthier have at the very least 1 set of each piece of hardware they offer on hand for these things? I get it if I hit up a guy who's never worked with Gotoh trems and needs the cost of the parts as a deposit as it's new hardware introduced to his work flow. But on a repeatable process, I don't feel like I have to cover the luthiers cost when they bulk order hipshot trems or floyd roses/tuners/etc. 

The solution is variable deposits based on how wildly you build deviates from the norm. If you're ordering the most popular super strat shape from a luthier, I think a low deposit is warranted. But if you want a custom star shape with a crazy color scheme and unique hardware, increase costs for sure.

But in application I'm sure luthiers charge a median cost for deposits.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Shouldn't a competent luthier have at the very least 1 set of each piece of hardware they offer on hand for these things? I get it if I hit up a guy who's never worked with Gotoh trems and needs the cost of the parts as a deposit as it's new hardware introduced to his work flow. But on a repeatable process, I don't feel like I have to cover the luthiers cost when they bulk order hipshot trems or floyd roses/tuners/etc.
> 
> The solution is variable deposits based on how wildly you build deviates from the norm. If you're ordering the most popular super strat shape from a luthier, I think a low deposit is warranted. But if you want a custom star shape with a crazy color scheme and unique hardware, increase costs for sure.
> 
> But in application I'm sure luthiers charge a median cost for deposits.



You gonna pop the "on hand" trem posts out for the "final" set? Install and then uninstall stuff repeatedly? Nope. That's just not how it works.

Not to mention, it's not 1970 anymore. You'd have to be a fairly high volume operation to have a shop set of every hardware piece in every configuration.

You know what you call a builder who doesn't get all the material costs upfront? A "fucking moron". Well, just for a little bit. After a while you just call them "out of business".


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 19, 2019)

That's not my insinuation, and clearly my ignorance talking as a customer and not a builder. But I always figured builders who work with CNC machines on things they have built before can trust that their routes and wood work should never waver from guitar to guitar, of course you install as the final step. I guess I misinterpreted Randy's use of Fitment, I was assuming that mean validation for hardware compatibility not actually installing the final hardware.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 19, 2019)

Jonathan20022 said:


> That's not my insinuation, and clearly my ignorance talking as a customer and not a builder. But I always figured builders who work with CNC machines on things they have built before can trust that their routes and wood work should never waver from guitar to guitar, of course you install as the final step. I guess I misinterpreted Randy's use of Fitment, I was assuming that mean validation for hardware compatibility not actually installing the final hardware.



Even with CNC and really good templates/jigs, you need to make sure everything lines up right. 

There are also steps like making the nut that benefit from having hardware installed.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Dec 19, 2019)

Accuracy should be checked from instrument to instrument because even with CNC, tolerances may increase over time as cutting tools wear, need sharpening and/or replacing. For instance, as a drill bit wears, and is re-sharpened, its diameter increases, making its workpiece having less cut into it. It is in thousandths of an inch at times, but over time, it can increase beyond tolerances prescribed as allowable by the manufacturer.


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## Ziricote (Dec 19, 2019)

You guys dont make it sound easy


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## yellowv (Dec 20, 2019)

One of Steve’s old SII 7’s has been at my local GC for like a year and a half now. It’s a sick guitar and they finally lowered it to a reasonable price. I have thought about it.


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## yellowv (Dec 20, 2019)

Edit looks like it’s gone now.


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## technomancer (Dec 22, 2019)

Out of curiosity which one was it?


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## StevenC (Dec 22, 2019)

I really wanted that purple/pink gradient 8DC from a million years ago. Still do.


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## Musiscience (Dec 22, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I really wanted that purple/pink gradient 8DC from a million years ago. Still do.



Just googled it, what a beauty. 

I really lusted after the green LP technomancer had. Such a unique and stunning instrument it was.


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## Hollowway (Dec 22, 2019)

StevenC said:


> I really wanted that purple/pink gradient 8DC from a million years ago. Still do.



I own that one, actually. I bought it used. Pretty much made a run for anything purple or pink over the last 10 years, lol.


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## StevenC (Dec 22, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> I own that one, actually. I bought it used. Pretty much made a run for anything purple or pink over the last 10 years, lol.


If you ever don't need it anymore, let me know.


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## yellowv (Dec 22, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Out of curiosity which one was it?



I think I talked to you about it when they first got it. Bubinga top, black limba body, rosewood neck, ebony board, recessed TOM.


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## technomancer (Dec 22, 2019)

yellowv said:


> I think I talked to you about it when they first got it. Bubinga top, black limba body, rosewood neck, ebony board, recessed TOM.



Yep that was mine.


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## Mattykoda (Dec 23, 2019)

The ebony top and pale moon ebony fretboard one I’ve always had a soft spot for. It’s such a great looking instrument. @Hollowway can you put some picks of that 8DC up? I can’t find the NGD thread.


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## Samark (Dec 23, 2019)




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## technomancer (Dec 23, 2019)

Mattykoda said:


> The ebony top and pale moon ebony fretboard one I’ve always had a soft spot for. It’s such a great looking instrument. @Hollowway can you put some picks of that 8DC up? I can’t find the NGD thread.



There were two or three of 7DCs with the ebony tops made, I forget which.


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## MattNet (Dec 23, 2019)

yellowv said:


> One of Steve’s old SII 7’s has been at my local GC for like a year and a half now. It’s a sick guitar and they finally lowered it to a reasonable price. I have thought about it.



I picked that up a few days ago (arriving just after Christmas), been watching this and lurking on these forums reading the various KxK discussions and drooling over the guitars. They dropped it to the point I couldn't pass it up (and don't have a 7 string so gives me some self justification). Looks like a stunning guitar from the pics at least. Really enjoy the beautiful African exotic woods, have a beautiful wenge top guitar and been wanting to get one with Black Limba and with the Bubinga top really doubles down on that for me.


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## Hollowway (Dec 24, 2019)

MattNet said:


> I picked that up a few days ago (arriving just after Christmas), been watching this and lurking on these forums reading the various KxK discussions and drooling over the guitars. They dropped it to the point I couldn't pass it up (and don't have a 7 string so gives me some self justification). Looks like a stunning guitar from the pics at least. Really enjoy the beautiful African exotic woods, have a beautiful wenge top guitar and been wanting to get one with Black Limba and with the Bubinga top really doubles down on that for me.


Yeah, I’d been watching it as well. I really don’t need another KxK (or 7 for that matter). It think it got down to like $1519.00 or so, which is a steal, even with shipping and taxes.


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## M3CHK1LLA (Dec 24, 2019)

any pics?


MattNet said:


> I picked that up a few days ago (arriving just after Christmas), been watching this and lurking on these forums reading the various KxK discussions and drooling over the guitars. They dropped it to the point I couldn't pass it up (and don't have a 7 string so gives me some self justification). Looks like a stunning guitar from the pics at least. Really enjoy the beautiful African exotic woods, have a beautiful wenge top guitar and been wanting to get one with Black Limba and with the Bubinga top really doubles down on that for me.


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## pott (Dec 24, 2019)

I have no experience with an actual build process with Rob/KxK (which I got second hand and therefore built to someone else's specs), but I will say this: my KxK is one of my favorite guitars. And since it's a custom, it's one I'm very unlikely to sell unless I really fail at moving anything else.

It's just got such a great balance: feel, tone, weight, playability. Mine has everything. A very pleasant guitar to just pickup and have a go at.

I've only played another KxK, a 7-string Floyd Super Strat that was a BEAST, but super fun as well.

That semi-hollow 7-string on Reverb would be mine already if I weren't trying to sell about 8 axes right now. Stunning, if a little niche.


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## Mattykoda (Dec 24, 2019)

Samark said:


> View attachment 75748
> View attachment 75749
> View attachment 75750



Damn. Congrats @Samark I bet it’s a dream.


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## MattNet (Dec 24, 2019)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I’d been watching it as well. I really don’t need another KxK (or 7 for that matter). It think it got down to like $1519.00 or so, which is a steal, even with shipping and taxes.



Yeah, finally wore down my defenses and just couldn't pass it up at that price.



M3CHK1LLA said:


> any pics?



I should get it the Friday after Christmas, so will be sure to post pics of it then.


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## yellowv (Dec 24, 2019)

MattNet said:


> I picked that up a few days ago (arriving just after Christmas), been watching this and lurking on these forums reading the various KxK discussions and drooling over the guitars. They dropped it to the point I couldn't pass it up (and don't have a 7 string so gives me some self justification). Looks like a stunning guitar from the pics at least. Really enjoy the beautiful African exotic woods, have a beautiful wenge top guitar and been wanting to get one with Black Limba and with the Bubinga top really doubles down on that for me.



I played it when they first got it and it was in great shape. It has been up high the whole time and very few people know what it is, so I imagine it didn’t get too beat up. Do you mind if I ask what you got it for. Last I check it was $1500 and change. They had it at like $2800 for the longest time.


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## yellowv (Dec 24, 2019)

Here are a few pics I took when I played it.


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## MattNet (Dec 24, 2019)

yellowv said:


> I played it when they first got it and it was in great shape. It has been up high the whole time and very few people know what it is, so I imagine it didn’t get too beat up. Do you mind if I ask what you got it for. Last I check it was $1500 and change. They had it at like $2800 for the longest time.



Nope don't mind. I picked it up at that $1519 price, been watching it (with others it seems) for a while. GC has a policy of not dropping the price for at least 90 days so if something is new you have to come back a few months before the prices drop. Sometimes they price it real high initially and sometimes very aggressive, can find some killer deals, but it's definitely a case by case basis.

I think they basically will put the high price as double what they paid, so starting at $2600 I think they bought it for $1300 and $1519 was getting close to what they paid.


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## yellowv (Dec 25, 2019)

It was there at that initial price for over a year. It was Aug of 18’ when I took those pics. I went back several times and even asked them and they were just content to let it sit there. Guess they finally decided they wanted it gone. lol


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## 2liveis2die35 (Dec 25, 2019)

Samark said:


> View attachment 75748
> View attachment 75749
> View attachment 75750


This guitar here is why I got into kxk.


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## technomancer (Dec 25, 2019)

Looks like it still has the original BKP Mules in it too. It's a great guitar, congrats 

Shame it lost the bubinga truss rod cover at some point. Did they still have the fitted G&G hard case for it?


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## Hollowway (Dec 25, 2019)

You’re making me wish I’d bought it now! That build actually inspired an 8 string I had made with the same woods. But that one just looks way cooler.


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## yellowv (Dec 25, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Looks like it still has the original BKP Mules in it too. It's a great guitar, congrats
> 
> Shame it lost the bubinga truss rod cover at some point. Did they still have the fitted G&G hard case for it?



I think they said it has the original case. Hopefully for the buyer the TRC is in there.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Dec 28, 2019)

Samark said:


> View attachment 75748
> View attachment 75749
> View attachment 75750



Hey! I thought my pics disappeared thanks to photobucket! Glad people saved them. 



technomancer said:


> There were two or three of 7DCs with the ebony tops made, I forget which.



There are 2 almost identical 7DCs with the same specs. The 1st sold immediately and the 2nd sat for a while. Rob changed the pickups to the PME bobbins (both had Gaboon ebony). I lost my mind, scrapped up cash and sold body parts, and bought it direct from him. He was such a nice guy, and has given me maintenance advice for all that ebony over the years. I got home from a deployment recently and it had like 1cm action because it’s so climate sensitive! It’s currently stretching new strings after a lemon oil rubdown and major truss rod turn. Still sounds awesome! I never fully liked the pickups until I started playing it through big bottle amps and front loaded cabs. So thick and hi-fi without being mid-spiked, or cocked-wah sounding. That’s one of the saddest parts of Kxk disappearing: Rob wound some awesome pickups. I have the blue stained 7DC semi-hollow with the Fishman piezo system (which really kicks ass), and it has very low output pickups I’ve almost had re-wound. But again through a big bottle amp, and accepting this as a clean/jazz/fusion guitar only, it sounds just beautiful. Lot's of Al Di Meola played on that one, and with heavy gain it plays really good leads. There’s just some magic in there I don’t want to change. Plus, the matching bobbins in both of these tie together my compulsively symmetrical side. I thru it up on Reverb a year ago needing cash, and yup I laughed myself off asking for over $3k for it. It’s worth it, and I traded Nolly’s Vik 7 to get it plus cash, but I’m happy not reselling. I think Rob’s stuff can hold value in a trade, but not straight cash. FWIW the guy that grabbed the Vik tried to flip it for $7K... it had frets 9 & 19 popping up and I was having to hammer them back in before adding some glue. Really awesome guitar but not worth $4k. But a bunch of us on here know the hilarity and cringe worthiness of those instruments, so I’ll digress. There’s still a couple 7DCs and Sii7s I’d love to get my hands on, but the only one’s popping up are 27” scale and I can’t play those comfortably. A couple nice (and one familiar to you) 7DCs are up on Reverb, and I’m entertaining floating offers and playing the waiting game. 



Mattykoda said:


> Damn. Congrats @Samark I bet it’s a dream.



Oh she hasn’t left my possession, and won’t. One of three guitars I’ll never part with. The specs were a dream custom desire by coincidence, and man is it glorious to play! The neck... amazing. The carve compliments the compound radius and gets thinner closer to the body. I’ve had so many non-seven string players enjoy the heck out of it because they never jived with the wider necks, even a Ibby Wizard. I can’t speak highly enough of the design, playability, and tone of these, plus the looks.


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## technomancer (Dec 29, 2019)

MAJ Meadows SF said:


> There are 2 almost identical 7DCs with the same specs. The 1st sold immediately and the 2nd sat for a while. Rob changed the pickups to the PME bobbins (both had Gaboon ebony). I lost my mind, scrapped up cash and sold body parts, and bought it direct from him. He was such a nice guy, and has given me maintenance advice for all that ebony over the years. I got home from a deployment recently and it had like 1cm action because it’s so climate sensitive! It’s currently stretching new strings after a lemon oil rubdown and major truss rod turn. Still sounds awesome! I never fully liked the pickups until I started playing it through big bottle amps and front loaded cabs. So thick and hi-fi without being mid-spiked, or cocked-wah sounding. That’s one of the saddest parts of Kxk disappearing: Rob wound some awesome pickups. I have the blue stained 7DC semi-hollow with the Fishman piezo system (which really kicks ass), and it has very low output pickups I’ve almost had re-wound. But again through a big bottle amp, and accepting this as a clean/jazz/fusion guitar only, it sounds just beautiful. Lot's of Al Di Meola played on that one, and with heavy gain it plays really good leads. There’s just some magic in there I don’t want to change. Plus, the matching bobbins in both of these tie together my compulsively symmetrical side. I thru it up on Reverb a year ago needing cash, and yup I laughed myself off asking for over $3k for it. It’s worth it, and I traded Nolly’s Vik 7 to get it plus cash, but I’m happy not reselling. I think Rob’s stuff can hold value in a trade, but not straight cash. FWIW the guy that grabbed the Vik tried to flip it for $7K... it had frets 9 & 19 popping up and I was having to hammer them back in before adding some glue. Really awesome guitar but not worth $4k. But a bunch of us on here know the hilarity and cringe worthiness of those instruments, so I’ll digress. There’s still a couple 7DCs and Sii7s I’d love to get my hands on, but the only one’s popping up are 27” scale and I can’t play those comfortably. A couple nice (and one familiar to you) 7DCs are up on Reverb, and I’m entertaining floating offers and playing the waiting game.



Glad you still have it, that thing was gorgeous  I've still got my insane walnut 7DC, DCii-6 purple prototype, and the all black limba 7S I grabbed as an in stock. The walnut is an all mahogany oiled back and neck and usually needs a truss rod tweak a couple times a year as the seasons change, so I can see that ebony needing work if it was left for an extended period of time. I agree about Rob's pickups as well, his stuff sounded amazing. I still have his pickups in both the 7s I have. I've been tempted to grab my old semi-hollow again as that was a killer guitar, just haven't been playing 7s enough to justify it...

Yeah those Viks seemed to be just plain bad with a lot of issues like fretwork and finishes coming off... plus the guy turned out to be a complete douche bag. Seeing all the issues with them after the fact plus the guy's winning personality made me glad I never went near one.


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## 2liveis2die35 (Dec 29, 2019)

technomancer said:


> Glad you still have it, that thing was gorgeous  I've still got my insane walnut 7DC, DCii-6 purple prototype, and the all black limba 7S I grabbed as an in stock. The walnut is an all mahogany oiled back and neck and usually needs a truss rod tweak a couple times a year as the seasons change, so I can see that ebony needing work if it was left for an extended period of time. I agree about Rob's pickups as well, his stuff sounded amazing. I still have his pickups in both the 7s I have. I've been tempted to grab my old semi-hollow again as that was a killer guitar, just haven't been playing 7s enough to justify it...
> 
> Yeah those Viks seemed to be just plain bad with a lot of issues like fretwork and finishes coming off... plus the guy turned out to be a complete douche bag. Seeing all the issues with them after the fact plus the guy's winning personality made me glad I never went near one.


Technomancer I remember you buying that.i had bought the other in stock black limba 7s.The one I bought though was all satin.when you bought yours I had mine up for sale,I was like man u should of bought mine it's was like 700$ cheaper than what you got yours for.i figured u didn't see it or just preferred the lacquered version better. anyways glad I still have it.as for vik I know a lot of people dislike him and can see why.i owned one and it was immaculate and a great sounding guitar.wish I never sold it.


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## technomancer (Dec 29, 2019)

2liveis2die35 said:


> Technomancer I remember you buying that.i had bought the other in stock black limba 7s.The one I bought though was all satin.when you bought yours I had mine up for sale,I was like man u should of bought mine it's was like 700$ cheaper than what you got yours for.i figured u didn't see it or just preferred the lacquered version better. anyways glad I still have it.as for vik I know a lot of people dislike him and can see why.i owned one and it was immaculate and a great sounding guitar.wish I never sold it.



I don't think I saw yours as I don't remember one for sale at the time  I do prefer the gloss body though


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## 2liveis2die35 (Dec 29, 2019)

technomancer said:


> I don't think I saw yours as I don't remember one for sale at the time  I do prefer the gloss body though


I think at the time I might of had it up like a couple weeks..i think u bought his last instock??..did yours also have the thicker neck profile?


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## technomancer (Dec 29, 2019)

2liveis2die35 said:


> I think at the time I might of had it up like a couple weeks..i think u bought his last instock??..did yours also have the thicker neck profile?



Yes the one I got was the last in stock Rob did. It does have the thicker neck profile.


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 30, 2019)

technomancer said:


> I've still got my insane walnut 7DC, DCii-6 purple prototype, and the all black limba 7S I grabbed as an in stock.



This thread needs more pics...

At the turn of the decade, KxK seemed like a luthier shop cut from a different cloth. Never heard a bad thing about their guitars and they had some endorsements on their website that were not typical for small custom shops. (KK Downing, Karl Sanders, etc.). It seemed less like an upstart builder and more like a small guitar company. The amount of in-stock builds that got posted here in the Dealers section also seemed to show KxK was more prolific than other luthier shops. It felt like there was a lot that set them apart.

It would be surprising if KxK ran out of customers but stranger things have happened. With all the recent discussion of the Daemoness wait list (which has people waiting up to 5, 6 years in some cases), it's obvious the metal guitar community tends to flock to just a few luthiers at a time. In other words, some luthiers starve while others are swamped with more orders than they can handle. People are more content to wait for Luthier A's secret sauce than take their money and ideas to Luthier B with better availability.

What's interesting is that some custom shops do survive decades. Both Conklin and Alembic have been building custom guitars for 30+ years, for example. Conklin probably made their bread and butter by cornering the ERG bass market while Alembic acquired cult status from a few notable artists and an early founding date (50 years ago).

Either way, they found a way to make it last long-term even if these shops are the exception rather than the rule. For metal guitars, the market seems more volatile.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 30, 2019)

Sermo Lupi said:


> This thread needs more pics...
> 
> At the turn of the decade, KxK seemed like a luthier shop cut from a different cloth. Never heard a bad thing about their guitars and they had some endorsements on their website that were not typical for small custom shops. (KK Downing, Karl Sanders, etc.). It seemed less like an upstart builder and more like a small guitar company. The amount of in-stock builds that got posted here in the Dealers section also seemed to show KxK was more prolific than other luthier shops. It felt like there was a lot that set them apart.
> 
> ...



Shops with longevity focus on the product and aren't afraid to charge for it. Alembic and Conklin weren't only the first and only to offer certain features and configurations for decades, they also routinely have builds hit five figures. 

The custom metal guitar scene the last couple decades has been a race to the bottom and it shows.


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## Fred the Shred (Dec 30, 2019)

Rob is really a fab builder for sure. It's quite a shame that he couldn't keep the business going, especially with the number of people going after far worse quality companies of the "shilled by random interwebz crew that fucks off to a different company when shit hits the fan" variety. I miss mine but alas, buying a house implied some guitars not making it.


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Shops with longevity focus on the product and aren't afraid to charge for it. Alembic and Conklin weren't only the first and only to offer certain features and configurations for decades, they also routinely have builds hit five figures.
> 
> The custom metal guitar scene the last couple decades has been a race to the bottom and it shows.



The price point is definitely a factor, although that inevitably results in fewer orders which can be its own problem. I'd say Conklin and Alembic weathered the storm because they are more diversified than typical metal builders. For example, they both offer basses and probably sell more basses than guitars; Conklin was one of the few to do fanned frets many years before they were popular (along with Novak); and Alembic has been pretty agnostic in terms of brand identity, which seems to have put them on the RADAR of many jazz and session musicians as well as the rock types they already attract through their legacy and artist affiliations. 

No doubt having a valuable product helps, however. In the true sense of that word. Shops tend to want to stick around if they can depend on a healthy profit margin that they've built up on reputation over the years. There's still an incentive to make instruments even if overall production declines. 

What is your opinion on the 'boutique' metal guitar scene, though? Several builders tried to tackle the price point problem and most did not succeed. What success stories are there? Ken Lawrence? I wouldn't point to Blackmachine as an unequivocal success, although low production did keep values high for a time. 

As Fred said, the metal guitar scene in general seems to be very hype-based and price point alone isn't enough to set luthiers apart. I think you're right in calling it a race to the bottom, although I think the buyers encouraged this as much as the builders.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 30, 2019)

Sermo Lupi said:


> The price point is definitely a factor, although that inevitably results in fewer orders which can be its own problem. I'd say Conklin and Alembic weathered the storm because they are more diversified than typical metal builders. For example, they both offer basses and probably sell more basses than guitars; Conklin was one of the few to do fanned frets many years before they were popular (along with Novak); and Alembic has been pretty agnostic in terms of brand identity, which seems to have put them on the RADAR of many jazz and session musicians as well as the rock types they already attract through their legacy and artist affiliations.
> 
> No doubt having a valuable product helps, however. In the true sense of that word. Shops tend to want to stick around if they can depend on a healthy profit margin that they've built up on reputation over the years. There's still an incentive to make instruments even if overall production declines.
> 
> ...



That's the thing though, if you make an exceptional product, and charge accordingly, you don't need to worry as much about quantity. When you routinely charge $15k for an instrument the scales are tipped so far that you're not starving for work even if you only cater to the 1% of players that can afford it. 

Conklin didn't start with fanned frets. They started by making genuinely great guitars in a sea of okay guitars and leveraged that into the longstanding business we see today. Alembic practically invented on board electronics and the quality of instruments has always been beyond reproach. 

The "boutique metal guitar" scene depends on hype because all the brands are so new and want to grow so quickly, even if the product isn't there yet. The audience is generally younger and thanks to late stage capitalism it'll probably never evolve to be like the legacy builders of the previous few generations.


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## thrsher (Dec 30, 2019)

always loved KxK. every one i touched was great. if the swamp thing ever popped back up, i would buy it back. i lost the info who i sold it to


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the thing though, if you make an exceptional product, and charge accordingly, you don't need to worry as much about quantity. When you routinely charge $15k for an instrument the scales are tipped so far that you're not starving for work even if you only cater to the 1% of players that can afford it.
> 
> Conklin didn't start with fanned frets. They started by making genuinely great guitars in a sea of okay guitars and leveraged that into the longstanding business we see today. Alembic practically invented on board electronics and the quality of instruments has always been beyond reproach.
> 
> The "boutique metal guitar" scene depends on hype because all the brands are so new and want to grow so quickly, even if the product isn't there yet. The audience is generally younger and thanks to late stage capitalism it'll probably never evolve to be like the legacy builders of the previous few generations.



or you implode before ever getting that far.

looking at you blackwater.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 30, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> or you implode before ever getting that far.
> 
> looking at you blackwater.



That's just how it goes. Even great builders fail. 

There are few guarantees in this sector.


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## Randy (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The "boutique metal guitar" scene depends on hype because all the brands are so new and want to grow so quickly, even if the product isn't there yet. The audience is generally younger and thanks to late stage capitalism it'll probably never evolve to be like the legacy builders of the previous few generations.



I know the dynamic goes way way back but my recollection of the genesis of SSO/djent custom shop kiddos was Bulb's Guiterrez Juggernaut. Can't remember if that was before or after the TIL builds though.


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## cardinal (Dec 30, 2019)

Well, Conklin and Alembic we know about today because they survived. How many similar companies started around the same time but failed? We just don't know about them because it was a while ago and it was pre-internet. These days, I suspect it's the similar. Some brands make it and some don't. Combination of skill, marketing, and luck. 

The internet probably makes it a bit worse, though. The hype spreads super fast and probably results in a flood of orders that might be hard to resist even if you should know that you can't grow that quickly. And then there's answering the email. All that email... And the trolls.


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## Fred the Shred (Dec 30, 2019)

We also can't really forget there's a very large number of newer companies trying to make it when the market itself isn't remotely as hot as it once was, and this does make it easy to commit basic mistakes that absolutely wreck the company's staying potential. Stuff like underpricing the product a la S7G on its own is responsible for the suicide of many a company whenever any fuck up takes place or they find themselves needing to expand on production capacity as the money simply isn't there, so the new deposits start off by paying the remnants of previously ordered builds as the delays stack, and once people stop ordering as much, the whole thing blows up.


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's just how it goes. Even great builders fail.
> 
> There are few guarantees in this sector.


Definitely doesn't help that it's a purely consumer driven/disposable income business. Those always have a much harder time surviving long term. I had a buddy that did data analysis for Polaris and he told me that the only way to get people to ditch perfectly good products is to keep the hype train rolling with new features. I mean look at what Kiesel does. As much as I deplore the cult of personality that's developed around Jeff, he knows how to keep his hooks in his customers via new flashy finishes/designs. There's a whole bunch of guys in the kiesel group I used to be part of that are essentially "white whales", where they buy basically everything new kiesel puts out.
Disposable income based businesses are always the first to get hit when the economy goes south as well. I had some relatives that worked for Whirlpool and they all got laid off when the economy tanked in 08 since people only buy appliances when the housing market/economy is doing ok.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 30, 2019)

cardinal said:


> Well, Conklin and Alembic we know about today because they survived. How many similar companies started around the same time but failed? We just don't know about them because it was a while ago and it was pre-internet. These days, I suspect it's the similar. Some brands make it and some don't. Combination of skill, marketing, and luck.
> 
> The internet probably makes it a bit worse, though. The hype spreads super fast and probably results in a flood of orders that might be hard to resist even if you should know that you can't grow that quickly. And then there's answering the email. All that email... And the trolls.



We actually know a lot from that time period: Suhr, Anderson, Jackson, Charvel, Robin, Kramer. 

There weren't big, established custom shops at that time, so there was plenty of breathing room for builders and small shops to thrive. They became the big shops we know today. 

But attitudes towards larger shops has changed, and the market has diversified significantly.

The internet has shrunken the marketplace to the point that everyone is a competitor. Half a century ago it would have been inconceivable that Kiesel or Daemoness or Oni could be after the same players.


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 30, 2019)

Do you guys remember when Fender forbade dealers from publishing street prices on the interwebs?


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 30, 2019)

The906 said:


> Do you guys remember when Fender forbade dealers from publishing street prices on the interwebs?



They didn't want dealers to fight to the bottom or for the largest dealers to destroy the smaller dealers that Fender was trying to woo at the time. This was right after Mars folded and Fender needed to get into as many stores as they could. They had gone "all in" with Mars and thought they could forgo the mom and pop shops.

I still think they handled it fairly poorly.


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> We actually know a lot from that time period: Suhr, Anderson, Jackson, Charvel, Robin, Kramer.
> 
> There weren't big, established custom shops at that time, so there was plenty of breathing room for builders and small shops to thrive. They became the big shops we know today.
> 
> ...



That having been said, there are a decent number of boutique luthiers who specialise in Les Paul copies and the like. I don't think all segments of the guitar market suffered equally. Again, I think it partly boils down to demographic...the type of person who buys those guitars skews older and has more disposable income than what we see in the metal guitar scene. 

That's why I said I wonder if it will ever change. 5 of the 8 members with posts on this page joined SS.org between 2006 and 2009, over 10 years ago. We used to be in our teens and twenties, now we're in our thirties or even forties in some cases. 

Late stage capitalism aside, there is something about metal guitar culture that makes it more thrifty than that of your typical tone hounds. People still drop loads of money on gear in these circles. But they get five $2000 guitars rather than two $5000 guitars, etc.


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## cardinal (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> We actually know a lot from that time period: Suhr, Anderson, Jackson, Charvel, Robin, Kramer.
> 
> There weren't big, established custom shops at that time, so there was plenty of breathing room for builders and small shops to thrive. They became the big shops we know today.
> 
> ...



Not to belabor the argument, but again those are the ones that survived and thrived (at least for a time). Who knows how many builders in the late '70s made a handful of guitars and then disappeared.

And maybe the market competition is more fierce, but maybe the market is bigger now?


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## cwhitey2 (Dec 30, 2019)

I would just like to add that I love Alembic's website (http://www.alembic.com/hp.html). Very minimalist.


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## Seabeast2000 (Dec 30, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They didn't want dealers to fight to the bottom or for the largest dealers to destroy the smaller dealers that Fender was trying to woo at the time. This was right after Mars folded and Fender needed to get into as many stores as they could. They had gone "all in" with Mars and thought they could forgo the mom and pop shops.
> 
> I still think they handled it fairly poorly.



Interesting. This was still a time when companies were trying to figure out or just get on the internet (yes even 2001/2002) I figured it was an overly cautious Boomer company thing but your reply makes more sense.


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 30, 2019)

cwhitey2 said:


> I would just like to add that I love Alembic's website (http://www.alembic.com/hp.html). Very minimalist.



It's been the same since at least 2004...probably longer, but that's when I first visited. Things like their spec sheets have been the prototype for many sites that followed. When I ordered my first custom guitar around that time, I drew a lot of inspiration from Alembic. 

I love that a lot of luthiers are still stuck in the 90s/2000s with their website designs. Seemed like a simpler time...


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 30, 2019)

Sermo Lupi said:


> That having been said, there are a decent number of boutique luthiers who specialise in Les Paul copies and the like. I don't think all segments of the guitar market suffered equally. Again, I think it partly boils down to demographic...the type of person who buys those guitars skews older and has more disposable income than what we see in the metal guitar scene.
> 
> That's why I said I wonder if it will ever change. 5 of the 8 members with posts on this page joined SS.org between 2006 and 2009, over 10 years ago. We used to be in our teens and twenties, now we're in our thirties or even forties in some cases.
> 
> Late stage capitalism aside, there is something about metal guitar culture that makes it more thrifty than that of your typical tone hounds. People still drop loads of money on gear in these circles. But they get five $2000 guitars rather than two $5000 guitars, etc.



I don't think any sector has been left untouched. 

I doubt we'll ever see another Bartlett or Yaron. Even those who might cater to a different segment. 

The metal scene of this generation, as developed as it is, is thriftier by virtue of being worse off than previous generations, which is what I was getting at. 

The fact that what you can get under $2k is so good and diverse verses a generation ago is a big factor. 



cardinal said:


> Not to belabor the argument, but again those are the ones that survived and thrived (at least for a time). Who knows how many builders in the late '70s made a handful of guitars and then disappeared.
> 
> And maybe the market competition is more fierce, but maybe the market is bigger now?



I certainly don't disagree. 

I think the market itself is bigger (China's addition alone compensates for a slower market in North America and Europe), but so fragmented.



cwhitey2 said:


> I would just like to add that I love Alembic's website (http://www.alembic.com/hp.html). Very minimalist.



It's the only thing they're minimal about. 



The906 said:


> Interesting. This was still a time when companies were trying to figure out or just get on the internet (yes even 2001/2002) I figured it was an overly cautious Boomer company thing but your reply makes more sense.



Mars went belly up in 2002, so the timeline works.



Sermo Lupi said:


> It's been the same since at least 2004...probably longer, but that's when I first visited. Things like their spec sheets have been the prototype for many sites that followed. When I ordered my first custom guitar around that time, I drew a lot of inspiration from Alembic.
> 
> I love that a lot of luthiers are still stuck in the 90s/2000s with their website designs. Seemed like a simpler time...



You can usually tell how good the website will be based on how old and involved with the company the luthier's kids are.


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## MAJ Meadows SF (Dec 30, 2019)

More pictures you say?


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## Dyingsea (Dec 30, 2019)

Really great guitars (annoyingly thin necks though) so it's unfortunate to hear all the circumstances here. The guys who are still waiting on guitars after all these years deserve better. Once again it feels like another "insert luthier here" SS.org story where they just dissapear.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 31, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's just how it goes. Even great builders fail.
> 
> There are few guarantees in this sector.



I wonder if prs started today they'd be able to get as big.

I mean there are a lot of brands building in WMI and Cort that are able to turn out production lines...

but starting from scratch and eventually building your own factory and having employees..


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 31, 2019)

diagrammatiks said:


> I wonder if prs started today they'd be able to get as big.
> 
> I mean there are a lot of brands building in WMI and Cort that are able to turn out production lines...
> 
> but starting from scratch and eventually building your own factory and having employees..



That's sort of what I was getting at in my other posts. 

The industry and market has changed so much with the internet and consolidation of manufacturing that we'll probably never see another larger boutique operation grow from nothing. 

Everyone will just have a one or two person home operation and then farm out the bulk of production to Cort or World or whoever.


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## fantom (Jan 1, 2020)

Doesn't surprise me that Rob stopped building. I contacted him in 2013 about an in stock guitar after seeing many posts from technomancer. I asked some straightforward questions about the neck profile measurements, setup/action, and kxk pickups.

At the time, I was more curious to try one of the in stock guitars so I could decide about placing a custom order. I was pretty much offering to buy an in stock guitar or come to the shop to play it in order to commission something to my specs.

He pretty politely shut down the conversation saying he wouldn't want to sell me a guitar, never answered any of my original questions, and didn't even attempt to sell something that was already built and sitting at the shop. He wasn't rude, but he seemed to write me off as a potential customer, which was a huge red flag for me. His loss. He is probably right to assume I'm happier with the Skervesen I bought instead.


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## JP Universe (Jan 1, 2020)

Haven’t thought about KxK for a while!

I owned a couple years ago. In terms of quality they were right up there to compete with anything. 

The neck joint is still unmatched, glorious thin necks and weight of a feather. Sounded incredible... 

Here’s my 2 NGD threads. Some blurry pictures from Photobucket 

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-kxk-trans-orange-pearl-7s.200467/

https://www.sevenstring.org/threads/ngd-its-raining-kxks-7dc-13.224355/


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 1, 2020)

fantom said:


> Doesn't surprise me that Rob stopped building. I contacted him in 2013 about an in stock guitar after seeing many posts from technomancer. I asked some straightforward questions about the neck profile measurements, setup/action, and kxk pickups.
> 
> At the time, I was more curious to try one of the in stock guitars so I could decide about placing a custom order. I was pretty much offering to buy an in stock guitar or come to the shop to play it in order to commission something to my specs.
> 
> He pretty politely shut down the conversation saying he wouldn't want to sell me a guitar, never answered any of my original questions, and didn't even attempt to sell something that was already built and sitting at the shop. He wasn't rude, but he seemed to write me off as a potential customer, which was a huge red flag for me. His loss. He is probably right to assume I'm happier with the Skervesen I bought instead.



In his defense...we are a bunch of annoying fucks...

Although I expect any hype builder in 2020 to at least have the following information listed in the build catalog so I don't have to pester them with questions.

Angle of the headstock. 
brand of the tuners. 
string spacing at the bridge
string spacing at the nut
string spacing at the 12th fret
string spacing at the 7th fret just to make sure everything is looking good
neck width at nut
neck width at bridge
neck thickness at nut
neck thickness at 12th fret
neck profile with at least 5 closest examples
size and length of pickup screws in metric and imperial measurements
exact fret brand, size, and material
there's 40 other things but I can't remember them right now


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## technomancer (Jan 1, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> In his defense...we are a bunch of annoying fucks...
> 
> Although I expect any hype builder in 2020 to at least have the following information listed in the build catalog so I don't have to pester them with questions.
> 
> ...



This is usually what came in from guys that Rob politely told he didn't want to deal with... another one that got people turned away was wanting to duplicate a neck from X model of Y brand with no details or asking how it compared to the neck on X again with no measurements or information. Pretty sure one guy actually told Rob he should buy one and copy the neck then return it 

He also dealt with a lot of stuff like the assclown from the 7S run with a 3 month delivery time that emailed constantly to make sure his build was going to be done by a specific date and changed specs multiple times during the build process... and then didn't have the money to pay for the guitar when it was done on the promised date. That was actually the point when the runs switched to no delivery dates after he busted ass to get all the guitars done on time and several guys couldn't pay and/or backed out.


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## fantom (Jan 2, 2020)

Really? It isn't exactly like people could walk into a store and play one of his guitars back then. $2000+ on a guitar sitting in a shop with no return policy (I offered to pay shipping both ways if necessary). It is totally reasonable to ask about playability on concrete accepted terms like neck shape, thickness, and string height.

If he couldn't deal with customers or delegate to a small store that would, I'm not surprised he stopped building. I get some customers can flake and that can burn a small business, but he made assumptions about me and showed zero interest in supporting or promoting his own product. Why would anyone want to do business with a company like that? Maybe he was more enthusiastic before 2013, but the writing was on the wall by then. Definitely did not think anything bad about him, but that isn't a profitable business model.

Either way, it turned me away from considering his guitars. He has every right to do that, but the result of him disappearing as a builder is self-inflicted (and I suspect intentional) if you ask me. I just hope he did the best thing for himself.

Edit: also hope he follows through with customers he didn't turn away


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 2, 2020)

fantom said:


> Really? It isn't exactly like people could walk into a store and play one of his guitars back then. $2000+ on a guitar sitting in a shop with no return policy (I offered to pay shipping both ways if necessary). It is totally reasonable to ask about playability on concrete accepted terms like neck shape, thickness, and string height.



I don't think turning down customers and going out of business is necessarily related, although it obviously appears that way on the surface. 

In your case, it seems you were genuinely trying to buy an in-stock guitar. But he could have turned you down on the assumption you were either 1) a tire-kicker, 2) someone who'd try to return the in-stock instrument once you decided on your specs for a custom, which would put him no further ahead with the in-stock, or 3) someone who wouldn't be satisfied to buy without a shop tour. Not all places of business are comfortable with people coming to the shop. 

Diagrammatiks was being facetious (I hope), but some people genuinely do pester builders with questions like that. At a certain point, these customers need to realise the builder is just offering a product for sale and isn't obligated to jump through hoops. 

The choice to buy over the internet (with the inherent obstacles that comes with) is ultimately the customer's. Some will never be satisfied with the supplied descriptions and specs, asking for increasingly specific elaborations. 

With things like neck shape, I think it is enough for a builder to give some basic specs and/or a description of some of its characteristics (i.e. if it is a 'shredder' neck profile, asymmetrical, etc.). That's all most guitar companies give anyway.


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## fantom (Jan 2, 2020)

As I said, he was well within his rights to politely turn away customers and I had no issues with it. My post was motivated by the first page that stated interest / orders / finances were related. He had an eager customer within a day's drive round trip that turned to a competitor on a different continent. Perhaps he misread more people than just me?

As also mentioned, crap hit the fan with other builders around that time. Customers had a right to be skeptical about in stock or commissioned guitars just as he had a right to be skeptical about demanding customers that might flake and waste time. No one was obligated to do anything (and hence this is all said with indifference and best wishes to everyone)


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 2, 2020)

fantom said:


> As I said, he was well within his rights to politely turn away customers and I had no issues with it. My post was motivated by the first page that stated interest / orders / finances were related. He had an eager customer within a day's drive round trip that turned to a competitor on a different continent. Perhaps he misread more people than just me?
> 
> As also mentioned, crap hit the fan with other builders around that time. Customers had a right to be skeptical about in stock or commissioned guitars just as he had a right to be skeptical about demanding customers that might flake and waste time. No one was obligated to do anything (and hence this is all said with indifference and best wishes to everyone)



Man you think I’m kidding...
Do you know how many so called “luthiers” don’t even bother weighing both sides of a book matched top, neckthrough body wings, or neck pieces to make sure that they are all evenly weight matched? 

it’s like they don’t even understand that having one side heavier then the other is going to kill your reflected waves and destroy your tone. 

and these guys want my business. 

it’s 2020 I need photographic evidence of this shit. 

try and sell me a lopsided guitar.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 2, 2020)

fantom said:


> As I said, he was well within his rights to politely turn away customers and I had no issues with it. My post was motivated by the first page that stated interest / orders / finances were related. He had an eager customer within a day's drive round trip that turned to a competitor on a different continent. Perhaps he misread more people than just me?
> 
> As also mentioned, crap hit the fan with other builders around that time. Customers had a right to be skeptical about in stock or commissioned guitars just as he had a right to be skeptical about demanding customers that might flake and waste time. No one was obligated to do anything (and hence this is all said with indifference and best wishes to everyone)



Who knows? Perhaps at the time Rob had other enquiries about the in-stock and decided to pursue those instead because it was less work for him. Perhaps he felt he had enough on his plate for custom orders and didn't want to accept any new orders at that time for fear of putting himself behind schedule or disappointing you. 

That's the benefit of the doubt. However, I agree it seemed like a mutually beneficial situation. If you lived within close driving distance and Rob might have gotten two orders out of it, it seems like a no-brainer. That's why I suspect he wasn't eager for more business at the time. 



diagrammatiks said:


> Man you think I’m kidding...
> Do you know how many so called “luthiers” don’t even bother weighing both sides of a book matched top, neckthrough body wings, or neck pieces to make sure that they are all evenly weight matched?
> 
> it’s like they don’t even understand that having one side heavier then the other is going to kill your reflected waves and destroy your tone.
> ...



Oh, I'll sell you a lopsided guitar all right. It's a feature...all the cool kids are doing it...


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## eaeolian (Jan 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The fact that what you can get under $2k is so good and diverse verses a generation ago is a big factor.



This is the biggest mitigating factor, in my mind. I have a CS Jackson 7 string because you literally could not buy what I wanted when I ordered it - and even then I was still limited (it would have had a Floyd if the OFR7 existed at that point, but it didn't), and probably wouldn't have paid for it if I wasn't an endorser.

Now? literally the only reason I have to buy (or in my case, build) a custom 7 is because I'm a picky bitch about wanting the Floyd on top, and can *be* picky. Were I in a different financial situation, i could buy an affordable guitar that was close enough to my specs without any issues and be perfectly fine.


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## eaeolian (Jan 2, 2020)

technomancer said:


> He also dealt with a lot of stuff like the assclown from the 7S run with a 3 month delivery time that emailed constantly to make sure his build was going to be done by a specific date and changed specs multiple times during the build process... and then didn't have the money to pay for the guitar when it was done on the promised date. That was actually the point when the runs switched to no delivery dates after he busted ass to get all the guitars done on time and several guys couldn't pay and/or backed out.



That was such bullshit, and is really reflective of the reality of dealing with the crowd here. $1700 (which is what I remember it being) is what a production Soloist cost at the time, and people were getting custom-made guitars for it and then bailing when it came time to pay. I understand why builders want half up front, the risk is insane.


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## Hollowway (Jan 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The fact that what you can get under $2k is so good and diverse verses a generation ago is a big factor.



And that's why I don't get when people post about wanting to order a custom super strat 7 string with Hipshot and two humbuckers. I think people have some belief that a custom is going to be tailored to them in some way that a production guitar isn't. It's not like buying a bespoke suit or dress. Most of the time the elements of the guitar have little to do with the individual, other than having them pick stuff. 

But, like @eaeolian said, if you want, and can afford, or be super picky about something, then it makes sense. (Which is also why I think when Rob finishes my scale8 it'll be cool, because no way I'd ever see that in a production).


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## eaeolian (Jan 2, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> And that's why I don't get when people post about wanting to order a custom super strat 7 string with Hipshot and two humbuckers.



Exactly. When you couldn't buy a neck-thru 7 with a Hipshot, jumping on a luthier doing a run made sense. Now? Just go order one from Sweetwater. Yeah, it's made in Korea or Indonesia, but that's not really much of a detriment anymore - the quality of those guitars (especially at the 1K price point) has reached the point where it's ridiculously good.


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## yellowv (Jan 9, 2020)

So Mattnet did you ever get that KxK from GC? How is it?


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## MattNet (Feb 5, 2020)

yellowv said:


> So Mattnet did you ever get that KxK from GC? How is it?



It's beautiful and is in great condition. Was a pleasant surprise to find the bubinga truss cover on, must have been in the case and they re-added it after the last pics or before sending it. My apartments cluttered after the holidays so haven't gotten a chance to set it up in a spot and get some good well lit pictures, those are definitely coming. Here's a quick poor quality pic of where it sits in my living room next to it's friend.


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## Mklane (Feb 5, 2020)

Damn! Havent really been on the forum for awhile and had no idea KXK had dissapeared. Hope he sorts everyone waiting out. I have had a few and still have my spalt top mahogany Sii-7, its by far my favorite axe and its stayed with me the longest. Mattnet I actually tried to buy that and got all the way to the payment screen before it showed out of stock, congrats and can I call dibs if you ever want to sell it


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## USMarine75 (Feb 6, 2020)

How are the KxK custom wound pickups in general? I don't really have experience, as the P-90-7 set that came with the guitar I bought used wasn't installed, and I haven't put them back in yet.

I ask because I just purchased an Alnico-V 6-string set.


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## eaeolian (Feb 6, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> How are the KxK custom wound pickups in general? I don't really have experience, as the P-90-7 set that came with the guitar I bought used wasn't installed, and I haven't put them back in yet.
> 
> I ask because I just purchased an Alnico-V 6-string set.



I don't think I ever played a six with his pickups. The one 7 I played that had them had humbuckers, and sounded, well, fine. I don't remember the pickups knocking me out, but there wasn't anything *wrong* with them.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 6, 2020)

eaeolian said:


> I don't think I ever played a six with his pickups. The one 7 I played that had them had humbuckers, and sounded, well, fine. I don't remember the pickups knocking me out, but there wasn't anything *wrong* with them.



Fair enough. I think the comment on these were they were lower output than the owner expected (which is fine by me).


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## yellowv (Feb 6, 2020)

MattNet said:


> It's beautiful and is in great condition. Was a pleasant surprise to find the bubinga truss cover on, must have been in the case and they re-added it after the last pics or before sending it. My apartments cluttered after the holidays so haven't gotten a chance to set it up in a spot and get some good well lit pictures, those are definitely coming. Here's a quick poor quality pic of where it sits in my living room next to it's friend.
> 
> View attachment 77237




Awesome! That’s a killer guitar.


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## ceiling_fan (Feb 7, 2020)

First post in ages, but I snagged the semi hollow one on Reverb. Will be my first Kxk (never even played one before) but I've always wanted one. I found the original NGD thread here from 2014 and I saw that I commented on that post praising the guitar haha.

I didn't realize until reading this thread that the company is all but done, I noticed there was no social media presence but I figured there were still a few builds coming out each year or so. That's unfortunate


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