# Kicking out a band member - copyright issues



## Dores (Jun 29, 2011)

I hope this is the right category for this stuff.

Anyways, my band have recently kicked out our other guitarist. I won't go too deep into the reasons, but they include different musical preferences, being unable to focus enough on the band, having enough money to contribute to the band and so on.

But now there are problems. This guitarist is the one who had the idea for the band name, has recorded some backing vocals and he has written two solos on our demo. Now he wants us to apparently delete all those vocals and solos, and change our band name. I can fully understand this, and I would probably demand the same if I were him.

The problem is that the demo has already been printed, sold and sent to Spotify, iTunes etc. and therefore cannot be changed. It's too late, period.

But the other issue is with the band name. What would you do in the situation where you had to kick out the member who came up with the band name? Obviously, changing our band name would be to dig our own band grave. He has not registered any trademark/copyright what so ever on the band name itself.

I must also add that I'm trying to keep my friendship with this guy, because he is a really awesome person and a good guitarist. Doing this without pissing someone off is obviously not possible, but I would like to keep it as smooth as possible.


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## Razzy (Jun 29, 2011)

> he is a really awesome person



Not if he's acting like that he's not.

You guys are not legally obligated to change your name, or the songs that are already recorded/written/whatever just because he's no longer a part of the band, and honestly, it's RIDICULOUS that he's even asking you to do so.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 29, 2011)

Was anything you've done thus far copyrighted in his name specifically? If not, I think you're good, broski! 

Think of it this way... Do you have to change a child's name if you divorce your wife? 



> I named him! Give him back or change his name!!!!


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## Dores (Jun 29, 2011)

The only thing that has been copyrighted, is the label I had to start in order to get the music released on Spotify, and it's in my name. So no, I'm the only one who has any sort of copyright on this.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 29, 2011)

Then you're SOLID. **Black Dynamite Theme Song**


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## Razzy (Jun 29, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Then you're SOLID. **Black Dynamite Theme Song**



Donuts don't wear alligator shoes.


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## ShadowFactoryX (Jun 29, 2011)

you're good to go.
did that in my band, one ex guitarist said we couldnt play the "one song he wrote" so we improved it and told him to get lost.

no copyright, no issue


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 29, 2011)

Grey area. Not sure how many of you guys have been kicked out of bands but when there's beef, like fuck do you want the guys you don't get on with (or at least some of) using your shit.

Never forget what he did for the band, include him in your thanks for God's sake. I see too many bands kicking out members like they were nothing when really they got the band to where they are now and it disgusts me.


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## Inazone (Jun 29, 2011)

Understand the differences between copyright and trademark. A band name can't be copyrighted - it's generally a trademark (or _service mark_ in some cases) - and "ownership" almost always is awarded (if you want to call it that) to the party that has actually made use of the name, in this case by releasing a demo. Personal relationship aside, if your former bandmate came up with the band name while a member of the band, and you collectively agreed on the name, he doesn't really have a greater claim to that name than the rest of you.

On the other hand, many bands change names long after they're already established in their careers, so if you're just now at the demo stage, this is about the best possible time to change names, rather than having to do it a year or five years down the road. If your ex-guitarist is reasonable, he can most likely be convinced that the name is just as much associated with the rest of you as it is with him alone, and performing with completely different people with mostly different music, he's not going to benefit much from using that name.


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## Alekke (Jun 29, 2011)

This is kindergarten. We're talking bout "some backing vocals and two solos" !!! It's not like he is the mastermind in band. Even so. It's not even like you are going to erase his name and not give him credits for what he has done. He can still brag around with his solos and catch girls or whatever he likes.
Bottom line is he is not very awesome person and is probably pretentious and cocky guitarist.


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## Ckackley (Jun 29, 2011)

We have everyone sign performance waivers before every release just in case. Might not mean a thing in court but at least everyone knows up front what the deal is if someone gets kicked out/leaves.


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## penguin_316 (Jun 29, 2011)

Razzy said:


> Not if he's acting like that he's not.
> 
> You guys are not legally obligated to change your name, or the songs that are already recorded/written/whatever just because he's no longer a part of the band, and honestly, it's RIDICULOUS that he's even asking you to do so.



^^^what he said....what kind of spiteful douche would ask you remove all material he ever contributed to. It's pretty obvious he's just angry. IMO ignore him, keep the name, keep the songs, keep it all. If he wants to pay thousands of dollars in attorneys fees for a band I assume isn't signed, then let him take it as far as he wants.
He will regret it, without doubt.
Any project I have ever done I just request that you keep my name on the credits, you know...the stuff a normal person would request if leaving a band.


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## SenorDingDong (Jun 29, 2011)

Talking bout me?









Seriously though, the entire bands owns the material, and name, and lyrics. After one guy splits, the band goes on. Guy sounds like a jerk.


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## metal_sam14 (Jun 29, 2011)

Get him a spade and a tampon for his sandy vagina


You guys have nothing to worry about


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## heilarkyguitar (Jun 29, 2011)

whats done is done. no reason to change anything. just give credit where its due and so be it.


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## Diggy (Jun 29, 2011)

^^^Jstring said it best with the pic.. sounds like your ex-fiddle has a short memory. Most of all, changing the name of the band is completely out of the question if the members have used it for a good while and still dig it. Removing tracks.. super grey area. If you can play them or next guitarist can play them, I say F it and keep them.

Ol' Megadeth would move on and tell the ex.. "Did you enjoy that cup of coffee".


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## Explorer (Jun 29, 2011)

How long have you all been performing under that name? 

It's funny how ready people are to call this person a dick. I didn't hear any negatives about his actual work, just that the rest of the band felt he didn't contribute enough financially... which is a weird idea if one assumes that a band is a working entity. Did he not put up enough because you got the short end of the "pay to play" scam? 

Here's my thoughts on the recordings: If you can't come up with new material which is as good or better and which represents your sound, then you shouldn't be using the recordings of him. You'll be misrepresenting your sound, since "demo" is short for "demonstration." Saying that your sound is best represented by the guy you kicked out would be acknowledging how much you guys owe him. If the best you can come up with for a demo relies on the guy you felt was expendable, then you're calling bullshit on your own skills. 

And, if you realize that you need to cut a new demo anyway, then if you haven't established a huge presence with the name, why stay attached to that same guy you kicked out? You've acknowledge that he came up with it. 

You asked for opinions, and mine is, if you don't need him, then don't use him at all.


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## Alekke (Jun 30, 2011)

Songs are already finalized, performed and recorded. It is silly retreating the CD off the market just because secondary guitarist wants his two solos back. Like those are only two solos he'll ever make.
In two years this demo will be last years snow, and if you will get a chance to rerecord the same tracks again for an album, and if he would be demanding the same thing, than change them, but that's not how friends act like.

btw. I would really like to hear those two solos and some backing vocals.


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## Explorer (Jun 30, 2011)

I think it's a mistake to let the "friends" angle define this. If that's what it was about, then that doesn't speak well of friends who would just kick another friend out of a band. As you note, friends don't act like that.


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## petereanima (Jun 30, 2011)

If you performed the things he contributed together, live or on recording, his personal copyright is gone, and the material is property of the band now. They arent HIS solos anymore.

Besides that: no one, besides some guitarists, will even notice, let alone remember those 2 solos. Common listeners dont give a fuck.

For the bandname - anyone, may it be him or you, can file the protection of the bandname as trademark. (costs money tough, but imho is worth it if you are serious about it). If anyone of you does that, this peron says who can act under that bandname. It doesnt matter who's idea the name was.

If you wanna go this route, just dont tell him, otherwise he could protest against your trademark-file.


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## Alekke (Jun 30, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I think it's a mistake to let the "friends" angle define this. If that's what it was about, then that doesn't speak well of friends who would just kick another friend out of a band. As you note, friends don't act like that.



We kicked few members out of the band for similar reasons, and they never asked anything in return and we are still good friends. That's kinda normal behavior.


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## Dores (Jun 30, 2011)

Explorer said:


> How long have you all been performing under that name?
> 
> It's funny how ready people are to call this person a dick. I didn't hear any negatives about his actual work, just that the rest of the band felt he didn't contribute enough financially... which is a weird idea if one assumes that a band is a working entity. Did he not put up enough because you got the short end of the "pay to play" scam?
> 
> ...



No, it wasn't just the financial part. His musical preferences were way different than the rest of the band members', he almost never had any time to practice, and constantly voted against playing gigs because we "had not practiced enough." So it was making some members quite frustrated. And when we were offered to go as support on a on tour, he said he was against it because we didn't have enough songs.

Also, the only thing that was his on the demo was two solos, some backing vocals and a couple of harmonies - that's all. The demo still represents mostly what me, the bassist and vocalist have written and performed.

Still, personally I think he's a good guy, but people here are really enlightening me of what a strange claim he is making.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 30, 2011)

Explorer said:


> How long have you all been performing under that name?
> 
> It's funny how ready people are to call this person a dick. I didn't hear any negatives about his actual work, just that the rest of the band felt he didn't contribute enough financially... which is a weird idea if one assumes that a band is a working entity. Did he not put up enough because you got the short end of the "pay to play" scam?
> 
> ...



I don't agree with this post 100%, but the general message gets a thumbs up from me.


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## Andromalia (Jun 30, 2011)

Alekke said:


> Songs are already finalized, performed and recorded. It is silly retreating the CD off the market just because secondary guitarist [...]


I dislike the notions of having a "primary" and "secondary" guitarist a lot. It's called a band, not "a bunch of musicians".


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## Alekke (Jun 30, 2011)

Andromalia said:


> I dislike the notions of having a "primary" and "secondary" guitarist a lot. It's called a band, not "a bunch of musicians".



Of course. I wasn't thinking like that. My bad. I was pointing to his musical contribution to the band. 
But then again, if it is called a band, not a bunch of musicians, than he shouldn't have a problem with whatever problem he has. He should be proud and live on...and let live.


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## Explorer (Jun 30, 2011)

@Scar: That's all right. I *know* that band politics and ways of viewing them can be highly idiosyncratic, which is why I was so specific that I was sharing my opinions, instead of stating those opinions as fact. 

I had one band where a guy swore he came up with all kinds of things, and he kept pressing on those points so hard when we decided (for other reasons) that he was a huge liability, we had him write out his claims, and then played him practice tapes from before he came in. He was mad that we had recorded documentation, but it was worth it to cut off his claims. He even got mad that we kept the list, and were able to refute his trying to badmouth us whenever we found out about it. (Yes, he was being catty, and he eventually got a hugely bad rep due to our willingness to defend ourselves against lie-laden douchebaggery with facts. Spiteful of us, no? *laugh*)

Anyway, the things the OP will hopefully take from this discussion will include the excellent suggestions to make the band independent of the members, and making someone understand, when they join, exactly what that will entail through a signed agreement. A lot of folks don't think of a band as a business entity right out of the gate, and there are always threads here about how copyrights and trademarks aren't nailed down.


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## Jontain (Jul 1, 2011)

He could just be being bitter because he has JUST been kicked out of the band, give it some time for him to reflect on it more and then talk to him about it.

He has no real leg to stand on with his demands but if you want to keep him as a freind then i'd say give him time to cool off and then explain things from your point of view. And as noted make sure he knows he will recieve credit for the parts he has contributed to.


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## ZEBOV (Jul 1, 2011)

ToreFagerheim said:


> I would like to keep it as smooth as possible.


Best thing to say: *GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!!* 
It'll go surprisingly smooth. He's just butthurt that he was kicked out of the band, so he doesn't want the band to succeed.


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## Thaeon (Jul 1, 2011)

Inazone said:


> Understand the differences between copyright and trademark. A band name can't be copyrighted - it's generally a trademark (or _service mark_ in some cases) - and "ownership" almost always is awarded (if you want to call it that) to the party that has actually made use of the name, in this case by releasing a demo. Personal relationship aside, if your former bandmate came up with the band name while a member of the band, and you collectively agreed on the name, he doesn't really have a greater claim to that name than the rest of you.
> 
> On the other hand, many bands change names long after they're already established in their careers, so if you're just now at the demo stage, this is about the best possible time to change names, rather than having to do it a year or five years down the road. If your ex-guitarist is reasonable, he can most likely be convinced that the name is just as much associated with the rest of you as it is with him alone, and performing with completely different people with mostly different music, he's not going to benefit much from using that name.



So everyone is clear about the copyright/trademark thing. At least here in the states... Trademark ownership will fall to whoever uses the Name for commerce across state line first. If someone in another state has ordered a t-shirt or downloaded a song from an Internet retailer, you guys own it as a band (business), whoever came up with the name. That's how courts will judge on it whoever registers it first. It's not about the registry. It's about who used the name for business first. He's got no ground to stand on there. As far as copyright goes, registered or not, once a song is "fixed in a tangible medium" it is has a copyright, copyright owner, etc. As to what is copyrightable, lyrics and melody only. Chords and harmony aren't covered by copyright law. The vocals aren't covered. The solos are. You'll have to pay him a small amount of money per album sold or make an agreement to buy his rights. If he's getting credit for his contributions in a public manor, I.E. liner notes or on the web, he has no legal grounds to request he be removed, unless you fired him an unreasonable amount of time before the release. If everything lines up, he's boned.

Also, he cannot ask you to not play those songs live. Any artist has a right to 'cover' another artists work live. Compensation for the cover falls on the venue getting licenses from the performance rights organizations. Just in case someone uses his recorded solos live. My degree covered copyright and trademark extensively.


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## ZEBOV (Jul 2, 2011)

I got one idea about the solos. Remove his solos, and have someone else record something that sounds ALMOST exactly the same or a better solo.


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## Shrooms (Jul 14, 2011)

Random question to throw in the pot of copyright discussion, what if the lead singer who wrote the music, quits?


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## Mondo (Jul 14, 2011)

Shrooms said:


> Random question to throw in the pot of copyright discussion, what if the lead singer who wrote the music, quits?


 
If he quits his stuff should be property of the band, if he gets thrown out he should be able to keep his stuff. Thats how we did it in my band.


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## Alimination (Jul 14, 2011)

I agree with Explorer. We've actually done the same with my current project. ..because yeah we've all been in bands with the same issue your having man.


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## Alimination (Jul 14, 2011)

I agree with Explorer. We've actually done the same with my current project. ..because yeah we've all been in bands with the same issue your having man.


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## Alimination (Jul 14, 2011)

sorry for the double post!


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