# Multiscale trems



## NcLean (Oct 25, 2020)

So, what's the consensus as of late 2020? How much fan can a multi-scale have before a tremolo bridge creates too many headaches?

My observations of what's on offer:

Agile had lots of trem models, but seems to have cut them back to focus on headless (sic) models
Strandberg only seems to have trem bridges on models with very little fan
On those models, typically the pickups are not fanned, and I know from experience that this is an "interesting" tonal choice

Ormsby has indicated that they're unsatisfied with their investigations into trem bridges on multiscales. Kahler bridges are still mentioned as a custom option on SX models, which are multiscale by default.
Several manufacturers have dipped their toes into the idea, but haven't really done much. F'rinstance, I heard here that Kiesel had some multiscale trems, but now I see nothing.
Is it just too damn hard? Heaps of manufacturers have multiscale as a default now (which I think is the right choice - when I play anything bigger than a ukulele with a single scale length it seems wrong to me), and of course, trems have been around for decades


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 25, 2020)

Kahlers suck. Strandberg units can't do the bigger fans without a different baseplate, and even then, the quality is questionable. The CSL Sophia looks good, and seems like a legitimate option. Hipshot/Kahler got nothing, not sure where you saw/heard that. 

The new Hantug unit that Aristides is using on the H/O models seems intriguing. 

It's not impossible, heck Conklin made a couple custom ones in the 90's/early 00's, it's just a lot of work for a niche market.


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## Chris Bowsman (Oct 25, 2020)

I've been talking to Frank Falbo about one. My multiscale 8 I got from him is 25.5-27.5, but he said he tweaks the spread a little to work better with the trem. We discussed whether a multiscale with a trem would be better as a 6, 7, or 8, and he said the 8 feels a little clunkier due to the size of the bridge, but ultimately it woks fine. There was a bit of other tech speak about stuff he does to optimize things.

My next guitar from him will have the trem, but after our discussion of what he does to get it functioning well, I would not buy a production multiscale with one. My first 8 string was an Ibanez TAM10. Obviously Frank's guitar is gonna be better but his tweaks solved like every problem I had with the TAM.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 25, 2020)

2 inches maybe?

The thing is that if you want a multiscale trem to behave and sound exactly like a regular trem across all the strings then a very small fan is pretty much the only option. 

If that doesn't really bother you then you're only limited by the base plate and hardware design. So about 2 inches depending on the parallel fret before things get a bit wonky. 

lot's of hardware options now at least.

csl Sophia
hantung
tan
falbo
t4m


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## Hollowway (Oct 25, 2020)

Chris Bowsman said:


> I've been talking to Frank Falbo about one. My multiscale 8 I got from him is 25.5-27.5, but he said he tweaks the spread a little to work better with the trem. We discussed whether a multiscale with a trem would be better as a 6, 7, or 8, and he said the 8 feels a little clunkier due to the size of the bridge, but ultimately it woks fine. There was a bit of other tech speak about stuff he does to optimize things.
> 
> My next guitar from him will have the trem, but after our discussion of what he does to get it functioning well, I would not buy a production multiscale with one. My first 8 string was an Ibanez TAM10. Obviously Frank's guitar is gonna be better but his tweaks solved like every problem I had with the TAM.



You know, I may have to get in on that Falbo action, too. I didn't realize Frank had done the multiscale trem thing, but I just saw it on a google search. And I want to have him make a guitar for me, because he's a solid dude.


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## TimSE (Oct 25, 2020)

I happen to be designing an angled multiscale trem atm. I have created an angled base plate with individually adjustable saddles. I have had to put in a lot of thought about where to put my pivot pegs, and also the angle of the brass block and springs. I have a pretty cool design which I won't give away too much because 1. I dont know if its going to work yet, and 2. Its my IP so don't wanna give away my secrets lol

But in short, it's a very hard thing to get exactly right. The parts stay the same, but the placement for everything matters massively. I'll be putting up posts for my results when I get my first prototype installed.

EDIT: To point a spot light on what the issue is for all these big manufactures. Regardless of the fanned scale lengths, the tension is 90degrees between the strings and springs at the back. putting an X degrees angle in the middle of that is where things get messy.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 25, 2020)

NcLean said:


> . F'rinstance, I heard here that Kiesel had some multiscale trems, but now I see nothing.



Kiesel has never offered a multiscale trem. I haven't even seen anyone share prototype photos of any instruments with one, and I follow them pretty closely. Not saying there isn't one floating around...but...

The closest I've seen is about 2 years ago, Jeff held up a Kahler multiscale trem in one if his live videos, to show that they are at least interested in what's out there, and since then he's said that he just hasn't like anything out there that he's come across.


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## HellaSickTight (Oct 27, 2020)

The Rusty Cooley Ormsby always stuck out to me as a fun solution because it’s a standard straight trem on a multiscale neck. It looks like a new approach to the neck fan than I’m used to seeing because there is no neutral fret. I played one at NAMM and it was quite cool! I’m curious if you approached a neck like this but slanted the frets even more, and added a Strandberg style slightly slanted trem if you could get the scale variation more extreme?


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## UnstableinLINY (Nov 1, 2020)

Strandberg, Khaler, And T4M makes them. If you dig around you can find some T4M bridges installed including in 8 string. I have a floyd on an 8 string schecter hellraiser and I have an 8 string kiesel zeus with a hipshot. I think hipshot holds up pretty well. 

The issue with the T4M and the strandberg trems is the string can slip off the saddle post. Especially if you combine a dive and a string bend simultaneously.

I'd really like to see hipshot try and tackle this. It would prevent the string form slipping off since the saddle surrounds the string and there is nowhere to slip off. Even if the fan was limited to 1" or 1.5" it would help with the tension in the treble strings. I would be pretty happy with a 25.5-27 on an 8.


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## Jeries (Nov 1, 2020)

The one system that has turned me from a cynic to a true believer in fans is the e-scale from Oni. After trying the medium quality guitar center racks, I saw the potential of the multi scale but those guitars just felt “cheap.”

While I am not an expert guitar reviewer or blogger, I am a pro guitarist - so what I mean is, I can only guess that my examination and feel of the production models from Ibanez and Jackson is accurate. Since I have not been able to try boutique guitars like Oni or Padalka, I really cant speak from a position of profound experience or knowledge. It’s just my two cents.

There are some incredibly breathtaking guitars from the independent luthiers, [and it is also interesting that Australia has so many creative luthiers, like they are all very unique and the quality is superb from the reviews]. Anyway, if I had the money, I think an Essi 8 string is the only way to go.

Actually, I really do not have enough experience to say definitively that it is, but does anyone else feel the same way about the e-scale?


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2020)

Jeries said:


> The one system that has turned me from a cynic to a true believer in fans is the e-scale from Oni. After trying the medium quality guitar center racks, I saw the potential of the multi scale but those guitars just felt “cheap.”
> 
> While I am not an expert guitar reviewer or blogger, I am a pro guitarist - so what I mean is, I can only guess that my examination and feel of the production models from Ibanez and Jackson is accurate. Since I have not been able to try boutique guitars like Oni or Padalka, I really cant speak from a position of profound experience or knowledge. It’s just my two cents.
> 
> ...



Didn't Dan say he was working on a trem?


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## Jeries (Nov 1, 2020)

Do you mean instead of the fixed bridge, like a whammy bar? On an 8 string with the fan spread that they use, is that even possible?


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2020)

Jeries said:


> Do you mean instead of the fixed bridge, like a whammy bar? On an 8 string with the fan spread that they use, is that even possible?



He posted on here a few years ago about building a fanned trem. Didn't mention string count though.


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## Jeries (Nov 1, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> He posted on here a few years ago about building a fanned trem. Didn't mention string count though.


No way? Dan from Oni guitars posted here directly? That’s very cool.

I wanted to get the Essi 8 on reverb, but it was gone in seconds. I thought about the 9 string, but I don’t like 9 string guitars and I would have probably felt like a dummy if I bought it, it wasn’t cheap either. 

I would rather buy an Oni directly, but it takes 8 months and I wouldn’t even really deserve a guitar like that.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2020)

Jeries said:


> No way? Dan from Oni guitars posted here directly? That’s very cool.
> 
> I wanted to get the Essi 8 on reverb, but it was gone in seconds. I thought about the 9 string, but I don’t like 9 string guitars and I would have probably felt like a dummy if I bought it, it wasn’t cheap either.
> 
> I would rather buy an Oni directly, but it takes 8 months and I wouldn’t even really deserve a guitar like that.



He doesn't post as much as he used to, but he's been on here a million years. Good dude, very informative. 

His handle is "dpm".


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## spudmunkey (Nov 1, 2020)

An 8 month wait, and you'd have a guitar...rather than how many months of un-fruitful waiting for something to pop up?


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## Jeries (Nov 1, 2020)

Totally dude - that’s a much smarter way of looking at it


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## Chris Bowsman (Nov 1, 2020)

Jeries said:


> ... and I wouldn’t even really deserve a guitar like that.



Can you afford to pay for one? If so, I disagree with your sentiment.


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## Thaeon (Nov 2, 2020)

Chris Bowsman said:


> Can you afford to pay for one? If so, I disagree with your sentiment.



Its a way more rational situation than a Gibson deserving a similar price tag to an Oni...


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 2, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Its a way more rational situation than a Gibson deserving a similar price tag to an Oni...



Because only builders we like deserve to feed thier families.


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## Thaeon (Nov 2, 2020)

That’s not even close to what I mean. Gibson is a great guitar when sold at a reasonable for their quality price point. Charging what they do for a VOS Les Paul Custom is absolutely asinine though. Suhr makes guitars that are light years beyond quality for around half that in an area with higher cost of living. If Gibson stepped up their game (I’d love for them to do so, I want a korina explorer in a bad way) they’d be worth it. Currently, they are not.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 2, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> That’s not even close to what I mean. Gibson is a great guitar when sold at a reasonable for their quality price point. Charging what they do for a VOS Les Paul Custom is absolutely asinine though. Suhr makes guitars that are light years beyond quality for around half that in an area with higher cost of living. If Gibson stepped up their game (I’d love for them to do so, I want a korina explorer in a bad way) they’d be worth it. Currently, they are not.



Recent Custom line stuff has been absolutely great, quality wise. I say that as someone with a few Suhrs. Literally nothing bad about them. The finishes, fretwork, binding, and hardware have all been perfect.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 2, 2020)

i think the cs and the r series have always been great. it's everything that they dgaf about.


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## Thaeon (Nov 2, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Recent Custom line stuff has been absolutely great, quality wise. I say that as someone with a few Suhrs. Literally nothing bad about them. The finishes, fretwork, binding, and hardware have all been perfect.



So $4,600 for a Les Paul is an acceptable price when that’s the first tier of guitar that can come off the line consistently without flaws? Nope. No way dude. The fact that you can spend over $3,000 on US made guitar with quality that’s less consistent than stuff coming out of Mexico or Korea is not acceptable at all. At that price point I shouldn’t have to take it to a tech. It shouldn’t have quality issues at all. I can get a PRS, or a Suhr, or a Knaggs for around the same price and have a better made guitar than a Gibson Custom Shop. I can get an Oni for that. I could get two Dunables. I can get an ESP USA Eclipse. A Padalka. All better options with current features and actual tuning stability because they aren’t stuck on a traditional break angle that causes string binding in the nut. That’s a flaw in design and something they need to address. To me a quality issue. And not something I’m willing to suffer just to have a Les Paul. For anything midrange and above tuning stability issues are not acceptable. Period. Especially when it’s because you’re pridefully adhering to it’s use in the name of tradition.


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## InfinityCollision (Nov 3, 2020)

Jeries said:


> Actually, I really do not have enough experience to say definitively that it is, but does anyone else feel the same way about the e-scale?


I feel like you're huffing your own smoke 

Don't get me wrong, nonlinear fret concepts are cool. I put a lot of time into developing a system of my own. But I really doubt it's the fan that felt cheap to you. Regardless it's worth pointing out that 1) fan design matters - spread and perpendicular fret location can differ significantly, 2) escale concepts don't make _that_ much difference relative to a normal fan unless you're going for a really drastic spread, and 3) a cheap guitar with fanned frets is still a cheap guitar - if anything it's often a cheaper guitar, plus a nice but niche feature that's upcharged accordingly.

Production guitars are pretty conservative with their fan specs, so it's not like you really notice them under your fingers after a few minutes adjusting.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> So $4,600 for a Les Paul is an acceptable price when that’s the first tier of guitar that can come off the line consistently without flaws? Nope. No way dude. The fact that you can spend over $3,000 on US made guitar with quality that’s less consistent than stuff coming out of Mexico or Korea is not acceptable at all. At that price point I shouldn’t have to take it to a tech. It shouldn’t have quality issues at all. I can get a PRS, or a Suhr, or a Knaggs for around the same price and have a better made guitar than a Gibson Custom Shop. I can get an Oni for that. I could get two Dunables. I can get an ESP USA Eclipse. A Padalka. All better options with current features and actual tuning stability because they aren’t stuck on a traditional break angle that causes string binding in the nut. That’s a flaw in design and something they need to address. To me a quality issue. And not something I’m willing to suffer just to have a Les Paul. For anything midrange and above tuning stability issues are not acceptable. Period. Especially when it’s because you’re pridefully adhering to it’s use in the name of tradition.



meh. 3000 prs's are for poor people.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> So $4,600 for a Les Paul is an acceptable price when that’s the first tier of guitar that can come off the line consistently without flaws? Nope. No way dude. The fact that you can spend over $3,000 on US made guitar with quality that’s less consistent than stuff coming out of Mexico or Korea is not acceptable at all. At that price point I shouldn’t have to take it to a tech. It shouldn’t have quality issues at all. I can get a PRS, or a Suhr, or a Knaggs for around the same price and have a better made guitar than a Gibson Custom Shop. I can get an Oni for that. I could get two Dunables. I can get an ESP USA Eclipse. A Padalka. All better options with current features and actual tuning stability because they aren’t stuck on a traditional break angle that causes string binding in the nut. That’s a flaw in design and something they need to address. To me a quality issue. And not something I’m willing to suffer just to have a Les Paul. For anything midrange and above tuning stability issues are not acceptable. Period. Especially when it’s because you’re pridefully adhering to it’s use in the name of tradition.



I'll say it again: Gibson Custom tier stuff is up to par. I've played and worked on enough over the last few decades to say that. I have Suhrs, PRS', and have played plenty of Knaggs and various boutique brands.


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## Spicypickles (Nov 3, 2020)

I think you just don’t like Les Pauls. It’s ok dude.


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## Thaeon (Nov 3, 2020)

Spicypickles said:


> I think you just don’t like Les Pauls. It’s ok dude.



I love single cut mahoganny bodied guitars with a maple top. I love the way Les Pauls specifically sound and resonate when you find a good one. I hate their inherent issues. I hate Nitrocellulose. And I hate inconsistency. Wouldn't mind having another guitar with similar specs. Or even a Gibson with the issues corrected. Like I said, an Explorer is a dream guitar, and it suffers from the same issue of break angel across the nut. Its pretty well accepted that a straighter string pull is better for tuning stability. Tradition is not a reason to stick with bad design. I think a lot of my irritation is that I WANT a Gibson but know I'll be unhappy with it because of a lot of things.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 3, 2020)

I'm confused why you even want a Gibson at that point. just for the brand name?
get an Anderson bulldog.


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## KIMERA666 (Nov 3, 2020)

I have a T4M in a custom 8 string, the scale is 26.5 to 27.25. The trem works great!!!.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I love single cut mahoganny bodied guitars with a maple top. I love the way Les Pauls specifically sound and resonate when you find a good one. I hate their inherent issues. I hate Nitrocellulose. And I hate inconsistency. Wouldn't mind having another guitar with similar specs. Or even a Gibson with the issues corrected. Like I said, an Explorer is a dream guitar, and it suffers from the same issue of break angel across the nut. Its pretty well accepted that a straighter string pull is better for tuning stability. Tradition is not a reason to stick with bad design. I think a lot of my irritation is that I WANT a Gibson but know I'll be unhappy with it because of a lot of things.



Eh, the break angle issue is waaaaaayyy overblown. The tuning stability is perfectly fine in practice. I've worked on hundreds of Les Pauls, it's a non-issue. 

Old blues lawyers just parrot it because they don't know how to setup a guitar.


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## Thaeon (Nov 3, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> I'm confused why you even want a Gibson at that point. just for the brand name?
> get an Anderson bulldog.



Some of them sound HUGE, and just have something awesome about them. Other guitars do too though. And an LP isn't the Gibson I'd want. I'd want an Explorer. I'd get a PRS or an ESP Eclipse first for a single cut. I like the design and the weight better.

@MaxOfMetal I've played a few in the local high end shop that has a reputable staff tech, with the same results. Not all of them. But enough to turn me off. I keep coming back to them because I want to find one that sounds mind blowing and I don't have to retune every 20 minutes or so. Maybe I'm spoiled by the other guitars I've owned.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> Some of them sound HUGE, and just have something awesome about them. Other guitars do too though. And an LP isn't the Gibson I'd want. I'd want an Explorer. I'd get a PRS or an ESP Eclipse first for a single cut. I like the design and the weight better.
> 
> @MaxOfMetal I've played a few in the local high end shop that has a reputable staff tech, with the same results. Not all of them. But enough to turn me off. I keep coming back to them because I want to find one that sounds mind blowing and I don't have to retune every 20 minutes or so. Maybe I'm spoiled by the other guitars I've owned.



Guitars off the rack aren't the same as one properly setup. Even the "good" shops aren't going to do a full setup on something sitting on the shelf. Why would they cut the nut for the final setup on something that hasn't been sold?


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## Thaeon (Nov 3, 2020)

My point, is why should they have to?


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## Jeries (Nov 3, 2020)

InfinityCollision said:


> I feel like you're huffing your own smoke
> 
> Don't get me wrong, nonlinear fret concepts are cool. I put a lot of time into developing a system of my own. But I really doubt it's the fan that felt cheap to you. Regardless it's worth pointing out that 1) fan design matters - spread and perpendicular fret location can differ significantly, 2) escale concepts don't make _that_ much difference relative to a normal fan unless you're going for a really drastic spread, and 3) a cheap guitar with fanned frets is still a cheap guitar - if anything it's often a cheaper guitar, plus a nice but niche feature that's upcharged accordingly.
> 
> Production guitars are pretty conservative with their fan specs, so it's not like you really notice them under your fingers after a few minutes adjusting.



I am uncertain as to what you mean about the smoke, but the reason I’m asking in such a way is because my knowledge and experience is limited. Also, many of the members, like yourself clearly have a lot more info and experience with better or higher end fans, so I appreciate your input and time to reply.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> My point, is why should they have to?



Because off the shelf guitars require a personalized setup, which entails cutting the nut for the owner's preferred string gauge and action. The guitars ship with nuts that are a little tall and cut narrow so the buyer or thier tech can make the proper adjustments.

That's how fixed bridge guitars work. You cut the nut to your preference.

If you go M2M (full custom) they'll do it for you at the factory. Good shops will also ask for your specs and cut the nut according to the strings and action you plan on using.

Guitars aren't one-size-fits-all, they require adjustments because we're not all one size.


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## Thaeon (Nov 3, 2020)

I realize that. I don't know what I want to use a guitar for specifically until I've had it for a while. I generally want it set up to play in standard flawlessly from the get go. I think just getting it okay from the factory is kind of lazy. If you want to change it after you buy it that's entirely different. A guitar should play and sound its best off the rack. The factory shouldn't assume it will always be changed and use that as an excuse to not put their best into it. They should assume that it playing at its best from the factory is going to make the guitar sell quicker. I ordered my Suhr as primarily a wall hanger. It played so well out of the box it became my favorite guitar up until I had my Oni. Which Dan did a relatively standard setup on. It plays flawlessly as well. Better than the Suhr. In the 3 years I've had the Suhr, its only needed to be adjusted once after about a year and a half of heavy use.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I realize that.



Doesn't really seem like it. 

It's all good though.


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 3, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I realize that. I don't know what I want to use a guitar for specifically until I've had it for a while. I generally want it set up to play in standard flawlessly from the get go. I think just getting it okay from the factory is kind of lazy. If you want to change it after you buy it that's entirely different. A guitar should play and sound its best off the rack. The factory shouldn't assume it will always be changed and use that as an excuse to not put their best into it. They should assume that it playing at its best from the factory is going to make the guitar sell quicker. I ordered my Suhr as primarily a wall hanger. It played so well out of the box it became my favorite guitar up until I had my Oni. Which Dan did a relatively standard setup on. It plays flawlessly as well.  Better than the Suhr. In the 3 years I've had the Suhr, its only needed to be adjusted once after about a year and a half of heavy use.



how many guitars have you really owned or tried?
never in my life have I had a guitar that played to me best off the rack.
in fact I've been to stores all over the world and 90 percent of the guitars have been crap to play.


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## Jeries (Nov 4, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I realize that. I don't know what I want to use a guitar for specifically until I've had it for a while. I generally want it set up to play in standard flawlessly from the get go. I think....Which Dan did a relatively standard setup on. It plays flawlessly as well. Better than the Suhr. In the 3 years I've had the Suhr, its only needed to be adjusted once after about a year and a half of heavy use.



I don’t mean to nitpick, but since you are ‘the Oni guy’ how do you know it was a relatively standard setup, but it played flawlessly? If I am understanding you correctly, you got it from Australia brand new and it was set up standard or you mean something else, perhaps you wanted the action lower or it was something else? That just confused me so if you wanted to clear it up, that is cool. If not-cool too.


Also, how does the Suhr fan compare to the Oni fan? Do you think the e-scale is the best fan you have tried (I know the Oni is the best/fave) but I strictly mean the ergonomics of the design?


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## Thaeon (Nov 4, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> how many guitars have you really owned or tried?
> never in my life have I had a guitar that played to me best off the rack.
> in fact I've been to stores all over the world and 90 percent of the guitars have been crap to play.



I've played A LOT of guitars. From a lot of different builders. Regardless, of what I've put my hands on, I could claim anything I wanted about that. Or claim to have owned anything. That doesn't matter. Maybe I prefer guitars that are set up average.



Jeries said:


> I don’t mean to nitpick, but since you are ‘the Oni guy’ how do you know it was a relatively standard setup, but it played flawlessly? If I am understanding you correctly, you got it from Australia brand new and it was set up standard or you mean something else, perhaps you wanted the action lower or it was something else? That just confused me so if you wanted to clear it up, that is cool. If not-cool too.
> 
> 
> Also, how does the Suhr fan compare to the Oni fan? Do you think the e-scale is the best fan you have tried (I know the Oni is the best/fave) but I strictly mean the ergonomics of the design?



I am definitely not THE Oni guy. And I've owned mine for probably the shortest time of anyone on this forum. Several others here have owned multiples. I went to Dan directly and placed a custom order. I know is was a standard setup because that's what Dan told me it was. Since he built it, I tend to take him at his word. It was only slightly lower than my Suhr which has only had one adjustment since I bought it 3 years ago. The neck doesn't move much since its roasted maple. He said the action could get lower if I wanted. I don't see any need for it, so I haven't needed to touch it. 

Suhr doesn't make a fanned fret guitar. Only standard frets. Seven string Suhrs are relatively rare. 8s don't exist.

*It should also be noted that I prefer Baseball bat necks on my 6 string guitars. I like thin-ish necks on 8 strings.


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## Jeries (Nov 4, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I've played A LOT of guitars. From a lot of different builders. Regardless, of what I've put my hands on, I could claim anything I wanted about that. Or claim to have owned anything. That doesn't matter. Maybe I prefer guitars that are set up average.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks. I meant the Oni guy because you have the nicest one I’ve seen and also the newest

your also very adamant about the quality and sound and feel and overall quality and value, so I am trying to see if ordering one makes sense for a short, sausage fingered player (hehe)


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## Thaeon (Nov 5, 2020)

Jeries said:


> Thanks. I meant the Oni guy because you have the nicest one I’ve seen and also the newest
> 
> your also very adamant about the quality and sound and feel and overall quality and value, so I am trying to see if ordering one makes sense for a short, sausage fingered player (hehe)




I don’t have large hands. Pretty average. I’m about 5’10”. It’s the most comfortable to play guitar I’ve owned. Feels smaller than the three 27” scale straight fret 8 strings I’ve owned. It’s not. It’s longer. But it doesn’t feel that way.


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## dspellman (Nov 5, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Kiesel has never offered a multiscale trem.



I've seen a headless with a multiscale trem, but I can't suggest that Kiesel put it on there as original equipment. 
Kahler seems to be the easy solution when you get past 7 strings. I've had Kahlers since the mid-80's and haven't had one suck, but I honestly haven't had one designed for fan frets yet. 

I recall a Steinberg design that managed to avoid turning all the other strings flat, but I don't know that anyone has adapted that concept to current or fan fret guitars.


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## Durero (Nov 5, 2020)

The Stetsbar concept would be ideal for multiscale trems.

Since the whole bridge slides instead of pivots there would be no limit to the usable bridge angles.

Someone just needs to convince Eric Stets to build them.


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## Hollowway (Nov 6, 2020)

KIMERA666 said:


> I have a T4M in a custom 8 string, the scale is 26.5 to 27.25. The trem works great!!!.
> View attachment 86693


This is really cool. Who made it?


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## KIMERA666 (Nov 6, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> This is really cool. Who made it?


A luthier in Colombia , Tobon Guitars.


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## Wildebeest (Nov 6, 2020)

KIMERA666 said:


> A luthier in Colombia , Tobon Guitars.


https://www.instagram.com/tobonguitars/?hl=en

Really interesting work here. Your guitar looks amazing.


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## KIMERA666 (Nov 6, 2020)

I will do a proper new guitar day soon


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## spudmunkey (Nov 6, 2020)

Wildebeest said:


> https://www.instagram.com/tobonguitars/?hl=en
> 
> Really interesting work here.



Boy, you ain't kidding.


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## Randy (Nov 6, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Boy, you ain't kidding.
> View attachment 86886



More like a TOO-Big-sby, amirite?


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## jco5055 (Feb 2, 2021)

Anyone see Padalka's story on instagram? Seems like he's got an in-house mulstiscale trem bridge finished


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## Thaeon (Feb 12, 2021)

jco5055 said:


> Anyone see Padalka's story on instagram? Seems like he's got an in-house mulstiscale trem bridge finished



He's apparently getting some really insane metallic finishes with metal powders too. He's doing some really awesome stuff. Only other small shop I'd buy a guitar from other than Oni. If he's got a solid multiscale trem working, I'll probably be getting one at some point.


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## jco5055 (Mar 16, 2022)

Going back to this a year later, does it still seem like only the following are really viable solutions for a multiscale trem that is actually good?

T4m
Hantug
ApolloMusicParts
CSL Sophia

They seem to be the only ones that are possibly worth it and can actually use ideal parallel frets/spreads etc (at least with 6 and potentially 7 string, I understand the more strings the wider span is better).


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## jyym (Mar 19, 2022)

Is hantug selling to the public still? I think they may have become essentially partnered with Aristides and that keeps them busy.


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## CanserDYI (Mar 19, 2022)

Why do people hate Kahlers so much? Never used one myself but KHDs video a year or so ago made me kind of question the complaints? Any input?


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## StevenC (Mar 19, 2022)

jym said:


> Is hantug selling to the public still? I think they may have become essentially partnered with Aristides and that keeps them busy.


Hantug is still selling publicly, just their site is down at the moment. The headless hardware is exclusively for Aristides though.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 19, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Why do people hate Kahlers so much? Never used one myself but KHDs video a year or so ago made me kind of question the complaints? Any input?



Because they kinda suck. 

Half joking. It's a compelling design, but they stopped refining it a million years ago. 

Like any other system, if you understand the quirks, limitations, and general function you can have a good time. It's just, outside of some very specific situations, there's really no objective benefit and it's more about preference. 

I always recommend trying them, because some folks absolutely love them.


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## jyym (Mar 19, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Hantug is still selling publicly, just their site is down at the moment. The headless hardware is exclusively for Aristides though.


I mentioned this in the other thread I think, but their site has been down for close to 2 years


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## StevenC (Mar 19, 2022)

jym said:


> I mentioned this in the other thread I think, but their site has been down for close to 2 years


They're pretty active on Instagram and have a couple of Floyds listed on eBay at the minute.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 19, 2022)

StevenC said:


> They're pretty active on Instagram and have a couple of Floyds listed on eBay at the minute.



My general impression of them is you just have to shoot them an email and see what's available and such. It's a very small operation and things are constantly changing, so if you have real interest that's the best way to handle it outside just waiting to see the very few in stocks that get posted for sale.


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## StevenC (Mar 19, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> My general impression of them is you just have to shoot them an email and see what's available and such. It's a very small operation and things are constantly changing, so if you have real interest that's the best way to handle it outside just waiting to see the very few in stocks that get posted for sale.


The impression I get is to have the FRs as a standard production thing constantly available, because everyone wants aftermarket FRs. I need to send them an email because no one else will make the weird things I want.


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## jco5055 (Mar 19, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Why do people hate Kahlers so much? Never used one myself but KHDs video a year or so ago made me kind of question the complaints? Any input?



I personally love them (well the Standard straight scale stuff, I've never spent a ton of time with the multiscale except for trying those horrendous Deans out there), but my thoughts on why they are hated is as such:

1)FR-style trems dominate the market, so for most that's what you are used to and the Kahler is just too "different" in feel to get used to
2)For the older players who actually played/tried them in the 80s when they seemed to have a 50/50 split with FR when it came to guitars with trems, Kahler didn't have a locking nut then, only a behind the nut lock...but in the 80s a ton of guitars had badly cut nuts so this was a recipe for disaster in terms of tuning stability. So I think a lot of people swore them off and can't change their mind, even if now with locking nuts they are much more stable. I think this, as well as EVH using Floyds, is the main reason why Kahler kinda disappeared and lost the trem wars.
3)Lastly, I think Kahlers need more maintenance to keep them functioning well- replacing the springs every few years, lubricating the rollers semi-regularly, only using reinforced strings- in order to keep the tuning stability in check. If a person doesn't do any kind of work on their guitar at all other than changing strings, a Floyd is going to stay in tune much more often.

So imo, if you are fine to keep the Kahler working with regular maintenance, it's just a feel thing vs Floyd...I recommend everyone at least try one, as it is verrrry smooth feeling which I love.


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## trem licking (Mar 19, 2022)

As much as i hate to say this, kahlers look kinda hideous too. Haven't tried myself but they seem to not flutter, and peeps are MEGA into fluttering more than anything lately it seems. They did introduce very extended range versions, so i have to give them kudos for that. If i wanted a 9 or 10 string with a trem, I'd consider one


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## jco5055 (Mar 19, 2022)

trem licking said:


> As much as i hate to say this, kahlers look kinda hideous too. Haven't tried myself but they seem to not flutter, and peeps are MEGA into fluttering more than anything lately it seems. They did introduce very extended range versions, so i have to give them kudos for that. If i wanted a 9 or 10 string with a trem, I'd consider one


everytime I've tried to flutter with one I have been, maybe it's not breaking all-time records but still I don't know how people say it doesn't flutter, unless all the ones I've tried have the heavy springs option.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Mar 22, 2022)

StevenC said:


> Hantug is still selling publicly, just their site is down at the moment. The headless hardware is exclusively for Aristides though.



Yep, this. Tom Waghorn said they told him that they're not selling the multiscale angled trems to luthiers or the public


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## spudmunkey (Mar 22, 2022)

trem licking said:


> As much as i hate to say this, kahlers look kinda hideous too.


Honestly, same. Like...I'll admit I've not touched one, but holy hell...it looks like there's a thousand pieces.



The number of pieces makes me think of those articulating 3D printed slugs:


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 22, 2022)

Yeah, Kahler needs to get out of the stone age with those saddles. Too many parts, so all kinds of opportunity for failure or losing something or it getting all gunked up. Those stupid fucking rollers too. 

"Oh yeah, we'll have metal on metal on metal rollers on the part that gets the grimmiest the fastest. Perfection." - Kahler apparently 

I see why they stick with them, easy to scale, but it's really one of my biggest complaints, outside of the stupid fucking string ball claws. Go. Fucking. Locking. Already. 

The sad part is, Kahler has made a whole bunch of cool trems, and they can definitely make them now that Floyd's patent is kaput, but don't. They stick to one of their worst and refuse to make it better.


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## trem licking (Mar 23, 2022)

Plus the kahlers on the agiles are installed in such a way that if you have neck through/set neck, you don't have enough pressure down on the rollers to make them work properly... Not from experience, but from other user's experience with those specific guitars. Also, the locking nuts on the agiles that they use for kahlers and 8 string floyds bring the outside strings RIGHT on the edge of the frets, so no bueno


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## jco5055 (Jul 3, 2022)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Yeah, Kahler needs to get out of the stone age with those saddles. Too many parts, so all kinds of opportunity for failure or losing something or it getting all gunked up. Those stupid fucking rollers too.
> 
> "Oh yeah, we'll have metal on metal on metal rollers on the part that gets the grimmiest the fastest. Perfection." - Kahler apparently
> 
> ...



I actually saw somwhere, either their facebook page or insta, that they were planning on producing the FR-style trems again...I've read people in some places saying they were better than Floyds, but I imagine they wouldn't be better than all the FR-style bridges out there now since it's been 30+ years.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 3, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> I actually saw somwhere, either their facebook page or insta, that they were planning on producing the FR-style trems again...I've read people in some places saying they were better than Floyds, but I imagine they wouldn't be better than all the FR-style bridges out there now since it's been 30+ years.



Kahler made some interesting, forward thinking edits to the Floyd concept, but quality is almost always sketchy. 

Bridge quality in general is ridiculous right now. The cheapest Floyd Special you can buy in 2022 is objectively better made than like 90% of what was available 25 years ago...for like 1/4th the price. Heck, swap out some of the pot metal bolts and arm holder and give it a good cleaning and oiling and it's probably just as good as most of what's out there now.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jul 3, 2022)

jco5055 said:


> I actually saw somwhere, either their facebook page or insta, that they were planning on producing the FR-style trems again...I've read people in some places saying they were better than Floyds, but I imagine they wouldn't be better than all the FR-style bridges out there now since it's been 30+ years.





jco5055 said:


> I actually saw somwhere, either their facebook page or insta, that they were planning on producing the FR-style trems again...I've read people in some places saying they were better than Floyds, but I imagine they wouldn't be better than all the FR-style bridges out there now since it's been 30+ years.


yeah, they were supposed to bring back the Steeler. But idk what happened, that was like 4 or 5 years ago and I never saw anything out of it.


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