# Israel Using White Phosphorus Weapons In Gaza



## ZeroSignal (Jan 9, 2009)

Disgusting. 

Gaza and Israel conflict

Think napalm and you're not far off. The fact that they deny using it adds insult to horrific injury.


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## Mr. S (Jan 9, 2009)

practically everything I hear about this conflict sickens me...


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## jjjsssxxx (Jan 9, 2009)

that whole part of the world should just hurry up and die


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 9, 2009)

Neal said:


> that whole part of the world should just hurry up and die



Why fuck you very much. You do know that there are _real_ people on either side of this conflict?


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

Neal said:


> that whole part of the world should just hurry up and die



yea dude, christ, dont say that, everyone is going to be up in arms if you dont support the most popular opinion

back OT, that is pretty fucked up, if they ARE useing them, they should at least admit it. It shows that we really cant trust them to be honost when
we catch them lieing and can prove it


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## jjjsssxxx (Jan 9, 2009)

_real_ regious fanatics that bomb the shit out of each other and have been doing so for how long now?


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## hairychris (Jan 9, 2009)

White phosphorus = war crime, if I remember rightly, smokescreen..?

This'll end well.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

but apperently its not illigal to use them as a smoke screen like they are claiming to


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## jjjsssxxx (Jan 9, 2009)

it's only a war crime when it's not committed by Israel or the US


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## silentrage (Jan 9, 2009)

Neal said:


> _real_ regious fanatics that bomb the shit out of each other and have been doing so for how long now?



I wish the fuckers that supply these REAL religious fanatics with planes and tanks would hurry up and die, that would help too.


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## Mr. S (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> yea dude, christ, dont say that, everyone is going to be up in arms if you dont support the most popular opinion



Hardly man, I think it was more his statement that because there is this seemingly never ending conflict over there that doesn't look like being resolved everyone in the middle east deserves to die, okay back Isreal or Palestine or neither, but don't say that every single person in the middle east should die because they're in this stupidly endless war against each other.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

^i hear ya, i kinda agree with his statement to an extent. there are of course good people in that region, tons i'm sure, but i also too hate the fact that the middle eastern countrys just cant seem to get along and pretty much always seem to be fighting for some reason.

i was just eluding to the fact that quite often people can say their view and its ok with everyone if its the accepted view, but if someone else has an opinion that should be just as valid but it may be a little more callous to the situation that they get flammed(thats often me ). everyone should have a right to voice their opinoin


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> ^i hear ya, i kinda agree with his statement to an extent. there are of course good people in that region, tons i'm sure, but i also too hate the fact that the middle eastern countrys just cant seem to get along and pretty much always seem to be fighting for some reason.
> 
> i was just eluding to the fact that quite often people can say their view and its ok with everyone if its the accepted view, but if someone else has an opinion that should be just as valid but it may be a little more callous to the situation that they get flammed(thats often me ). everyone should have a right to voice their opinoin



Fair enough. But don't act surprised if I rip them a new one for saying something inane and moronic.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

^and i support that aswell 

its kinda like a royal rumble


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## Mr. S (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> ^i hear ya, i kinda agree with his statement to an extent. there are of course good people in that region, tons i'm sure, but i also too hate the fact that the middle eastern countrys just cant seem to get along and pretty much always seem to be fighting for some reason.
> 
> i was just eluding to the fact that quite often people can say their view and its ok with everyone if its the accepted view, but if someone else has an opinion that should be just as valid but it may be a little more callous to the situation that they get flammed(thats often me ). everyone should have a right to voice their opinoin



Oh yeah its frustrating as hell the whole situation, I mean there's no real obvious way to fix it. 

I'm all for hearing other peoples opinions If they're eloquently put but most of the posts coming from people that don't go with the general consensus forum seem to disintegrate as soon as they come under the smallest piece of scrutiny, which is a shame as when a full fledged debate gets going on here they're really enthralling, but the post I was referring to wasn't really an opinion it was just an ill conceived and quite frankly childish statement...

/OT

In regards to it being acceptable to use Phosphorus as a smoke screen and not against civilians doesn't the fact that it's being used in Gaza City render that argument moot point?


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 9, 2009)

Mr. S said:


> Oh yeah its frustrating as hell the whole situation, I mean there's no real obvious way to fix it.
> 
> I'm all for hearing other peoples opinions If they're eloquently put but most of the posts coming from people that don't go with the general consensus forum seem to disintegrate as soon as they come under the smallest piece of scrutiny, which is a shame as when a full fledged debate gets going on here they're really enthralling, but the post I was referring to wasn't really an opinion it was just an ill conceived and quite frankly childish statement...
> 
> ...



to the first part(i hear ya, quite often the oposite opinions that people express are presented so in a manner that makes it hard to respect it because of a shitty delivery)

and to the second part, it talks a little about it in the article, but i'm willing to bet since they didnt actually try to use it as a weapon by not dispersing a shit ton of giant bombs full of it, that it would help their "smoke screen" cause for use


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 9, 2009)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> and to the second part, it talks a little about it in the article, but i'm willing to bet since they didnt actually try to use it as a weapon by not dispersing a shit ton of giant bombs full of it, that it would help their "smoke screen" cause for use



They used it in the Lebanon. They're using it in Gaza which is a city full of people. It's like saying that America used Napalm to drive Viet Cong out of the jungles rather than murder them and civilians horrifically. 

Also, their record with civilian casualties does not fill me with optimism.


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## Drew (Jan 9, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Disgusting.
> 
> Gaza and Israel conflict
> 
> Think napalm and you're not far off. The fact that they deny using it adds insult to horrific injury.



Sadly, we can't preach - alledgedly we do it to. :/ But yeah, it's fucked up.


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## Carrion (Jan 10, 2009)

The use of the WP was for smoke screening in which it is the most useful agent to do so. A WP shell does not compare to napalm because the danger of it comes from the small incandescent particles that result from the initial explosion, not a village size explosion of fire. It is a war crime to use WP when either it is A. Used against civilians purposely or B. Used purposely against civilian infrastructure (Hospitals, etc.). 

Until Israel and Hamas designate an area to fight, civilian endangerment is an inevitability. Only when WP is used intentionally against civilians does it become a war crime.


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## ILdÐÆMcº³ (Jan 10, 2009)

For how intelligent our species is we sure are infantile and violent towards one another...

It makes me sad. So much potential wasted.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 13, 2009)

I was watching a news magazine on our main national TV station and they were discussing this very thing. An ex-artillery officer in the Irish Defence Force pointed out that the filaments of the white phosphorous shells were striking the ground and the rooftops. He says that he has personally fired white phosphorous shells and that they have to be altitude set prior to firing and that it is practically impossible to have a malfunction in the altitude mechanism to give Israel any excuse as to why the white phosphorous is striking ground and buildings. He says judging by all the footage available it would appear that Israel are trying to use them on people.


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## Anthony (Jan 13, 2009)

I saw a video of a baby that was charred completely by white phosphorus on ToxicJunction today.


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## CC323 (Jan 14, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> I was watching a news magazine on our main national TV station and they were discussing this very thing. An ex-artillery officer in the Irish Defence Force pointed out that the filaments of the white phosphorous shells were striking the ground and the rooftops. He says that he has personally fired white phosphorous shells and that they have to be altitude set prior to firing and that it is practically impossible to have a malfunction in the altitude mechanism to give Israel any excuse as to why the white phosphorous is striking ground and buildings. He says judging by all the footage available it would appear that Israel are trying to use them on people.



Now, I'm not saying in ANY way that what Israel is doing is right, but what agenda does your national news station have in all of this? Have they covered any of the atrocities in Iraq, such as the use of Depleted Uranium weaponry for the last 2 decades, which causes generations of birth defects and illness, not to mention that it DOESN'T GO AWAY; It get's blown around in a desert, settles, then moves elsewhere. At our current rate of use, the Eastern Hemisphere should be tripedal telepathic beings within the next decade , but seriously, I think your national news service maybe just a TAD biased...

Chris

PS Don't mean to insinuate that that service is crooked, corrupt etc., at least not any more than any other media service; you want crooked, watch FOX.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 14, 2009)

CC323 said:


> Now, I'm not saying in ANY way that what Israel is doing is right, but what agenda does your national news station have in all of this? Have they covered any of the atrocities in Iraq, such as the use of Depleted Uranium weaponry for the last 2 decades, which causes generations of birth defects and illness, not to mention that it DOESN'T GO AWAY; It get's blown around in a desert, settles, then moves elsewhere. At our current rate of use, the Eastern Hemisphere should be tripedal telepathic beings within the next decade , but seriously, I think your national news service maybe just a TAD biased...
> 
> Chris
> 
> PS Don't mean to insinuate that that service is crooked, corrupt etc., at least not any more than any other media service; you want crooked, watch FOX.





No it isn't. Our government is pretty damn neutral. Also, on the same debate there was a guy from the Irish-Israeli Friendship League arguing against him. It's not like a "They're wrong!!!" "Amen, brother!!!" kind of 'debate'.

Why would there be an agenda anyway? It's not like our government has poured billions of Euro into Israel.


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## Wisdom (Jan 15, 2009)

All is fair in love and war...


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 15, 2009)

I would understand using this stuff as a last resort but its not like Israel lacks any resources to carry out ethical fighting methods.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 15, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> I would understand using this stuff as a last resort but its not like Israel lacks any resources to carry out ethical fighting methods.



Last resort in a bitter war where you're losing horribly and it'd still be a war crime. I don't like this stuff being used full stop. It freaks me out like napalm.


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## chimp_spanner (Jan 15, 2009)

I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but also the fact that you can't put this shit out with extinguishers. Only large quantities of sand will do it. And believe it or not they don't actually have that. 

Think of the massive, lasting damage this is going to do to the civilian infrastructure. They've even used it on the UN aid centre. All the pallettes used to deliver aid have gone up in smoke, and last I heard it was looking as though it might spread to their fuel storage too.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 22, 2009)

chimp_spanner said:


> I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but also the fact that you can't put this shit out with extinguishers. Only large quantities of sand will do it. And believe it or not they don't actually have that.
> 
> Think of the massive, lasting damage this is going to do to the civilian infrastructure. They've even used it on the UN aid centre. All the pallettes used to deliver aid have gone up in smoke, and last I heard it was looking as though it might spread to their fuel storage too.



On BBC news I saw mobile phone footage of the shell strike from someone in the same compound. He was videotaping the attack on the compound when a White Phosphorous shell _hit_ the building behind him knocking him over. When he turned around there was smoke and burning everywhere and you could see dozens of the evil burning blobs of phosphorous lying in the middle of the street where he was walking seconds ago. I can't find the video right now but I'm still looking.


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## daemon barbeque (Jan 22, 2009)

I saw a picture of burning hospital . The burning balls where everywhere. I dunno how many people died from smoke or fire ,but the hospital is useless now.


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## silentrage (Jan 22, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> I would understand using this stuff as a last resort but its not like Israel lacks any resources to carry out ethical fighting methods.



Except ... the ethics?


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 23, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Except ... the ethics?



Well, the idea is that you've exhausted your ethical options and your last one is phosphorus. :crazy:


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 23, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> Well, the idea is that you've exhausted your ethical options and your last one is phosphorus. :crazy:



If that is so, I think the Gazans should avoid pissing them off lest the Israelis nuke the next aid convoy...


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## Daemoniac (Jan 23, 2009)

^ A disturbing, but increasingly likely outcome...


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## silentrage (Jan 23, 2009)

I hear the upcoming Israel PM is even more anti-Palestine than Olmert, should be fun.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 23, 2009)

silentrage said:


> I hear the upcoming Israel PM is even more anti-Palestine than Olmert, should be fun.



Oh no... You're not serious?


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## Randy (Jan 23, 2009)

silentrage said:


> I hear the upcoming Israel PM is even more anti-Palestine than Olmert, should be fun.





ZeroSignal said:


> Oh no... You're not serious?



Oh shit, it's teh Zohan.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 23, 2009)

silentrage said:


> I hear the upcoming Israel PM is even more anti-Palestine than Olmert, should be fun.



Wow, that would suck..alot..


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## Daemoniac (Jan 23, 2009)

silentrage said:


> I hear the upcoming Israel PM is even more anti-Palestine than Olmert, should be fun.



Is that even _possible_? What ever happened to Sharon? I havent really been 'up to date' with the whole shabang over there since he was PM...


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## E Lucevan Le Stelle (Jan 23, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> Is that even _possible_? What ever happened to Sharon? I havent really been 'up to date' with the whole shabang over there since he was PM...



Ariel Sharon had a brain haemorrhage on January 4 2006 and is brain dead on life support. Ehud Olmert became acting Prime Minister and subsequently official PM.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 23, 2009)

Wow... So this Olmert guy, how good/bad is he? Going on the 5 or so stories of general badness recently, im assuming not so great?


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## silentrage (Jan 23, 2009)

Lol, let's see, lebanon war, sexual harassment, lying about sexual harassment, corruption, lebanon war, corruption, gaza war.
Hell I'd say he could give Bush a run for his stolen tax payer's money.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 23, 2009)

Wow... wtf is he on??


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## Zand3 (Jan 24, 2009)

I haven't kept up on the news too too much. On one side, I'm biased because I have plenty of family in Israel but on the other side I do have insider information from people involved in the combat. From what I hear, it seems that the terrorists, including the ones involved in launching rockets into Israeli civilian areas, like hiding in civilian homes. I'm sure we've concluded this before based on a long history of finding schools that teach hate and promote suicide bombing to children, but the terrorists are very set on risking civilian lives as part of their strategy. This makes it very hard for Israel. I went to a seminar once that taught about how Israel's combat units have very specific strategies for going into civilian territory, and their combat specifically focuses on avoiding killing civilians. Does it happen sometimes? I would say yeah, definitely. But is our reporting focusing on the right things all the time? Hardly. It's hard for me to sympathize with fanatics launching rockets at my family, and then hiding behind their mothers only to shoot at my family when they knock down the door. Sorry, got a little passionate there hehe I do want peace, but I sure as hell don't know the best means to get there.


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## silentrage (Jan 24, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> I haven't kept up on the news too too much. On one side, I'm biased because I have plenty of family in Israel but on the other side I do have insider information from people involved in the combat. From what I hear, it seems that the terrorists, including the ones involved in launching rockets into Israeli civilian areas, like hiding in civilian homes. I'm sure we've concluded this before based on a long history of finding schools that teach hate and promote suicide bombing to children, but the terrorists are very set on risking civilian lives as part of their strategy. This makes it very hard for Israel. I went to a seminar once that taught about how Israel's combat units have very specific strategies for going into civilian territory, and their combat specifically focuses on avoiding killing civilians. Does it happen sometimes? I would say yeah, definitely. But is our reporting focusing on the right things all the time? Hardly. It's hard for me to sympathize with fanatics launching rockets at my family, and then hiding behind their mothers only to shoot at my family when they knock down the door. Sorry, got a little passionate there hehe I do want peace, but I sure as hell don't know the best means to get there.



Yeah, it's really sad because those who suffer the most don't want any part of it and they weren't responsible for the conflicts in the first place. 
I would feel pretty sick if I found out that a missile I fired killed a bunch of women and children and 3 terrorists, no one should have to go through that. 

No one in charge is looking at the big picture though. I wouldn't be surprised at another 2000 years of this bullshit.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> I haven't kept up on the news too too much. On one side, I'm biased because I have plenty of family in Israel but on the other side I do have insider information from people involved in the combat. From what I hear, it seems that the terrorists, including the ones involved in launching rockets into Israeli civilian areas, like hiding in civilian homes. I'm sure we've concluded this before based on a long history of finding schools that teach hate and promote suicide bombing to children, but the terrorists are very set on risking civilian lives as part of their strategy. This makes it very hard for Israel. I went to a seminar once that taught about how Israel's combat units have very specific strategies for going into civilian territory, and their combat specifically focuses on avoiding killing civilians. Does it happen sometimes? I would say yeah, definitely. But is our reporting focusing on the right things all the time? Hardly. It's hard for me to sympathize with fanatics launching rockets at my family, and then hiding behind their mothers only to shoot at my family when they knock down the door. Sorry, got a little passionate there hehe I do want peace, but I sure as hell don't know the best means to get there.



To be honest, I remain to be convinced that the Israelis really try to minimise Palestinian casualties. Their use of weapons who's use is a war crime and even the existence of footage of Israeli soldiers shooting at children with live ammunition on YouTube doesn't fill me with support for the Israeli cause...

Did you think that perhaps the "terrorists" are hiding in people's homes because (get this) they are their homes? In case you haven't noticed, they are not a standing army like the Israeli one. They're people. Resisting. 

During the Easter Rising of 1916 the Irish republican rebels came from their homes to the meeting places where they were organised. They were rebels but they were also people who lived in the city.


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## Zand3 (Jan 24, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Yeah, it's really sad because those who suffer the most don't want any part of it and they weren't responsible for the conflicts in the first place.
> I would feel pretty sick if I found out that a missile I fired killed a bunch of women and children and 3 terrorists, no one should have to go through that.
> 
> No one in charge is looking at the big picture though. I wouldn't be surprised at another 2000 years of this bullshit.



Why would you shoot the missile in the first place if you're the kind of person who it would make sick? I don't understand.. These missiles aren't being shot just to make their point, they're being launched to kill people to make their point..the same way they did when there were more suicide bombings in places like pizza shops..



> To be honest, I remain to be convinced that the Israelis really try to minimise Palestinian casualties. Their use of weapons who's use is a war crime and even the existence of footage of Israeli soldiers shooting at children with live ammunition on YouTube doesn't fill me with support for the Israeli cause...
> 
> Did you think that perhaps the "terrorists" are hiding in people's homes because (get this) they are their homes? In case you haven't noticed, they are not a standing army like the Israeli one. They're people. Resisting.
> 
> During the Easter Rising of 1916 the Irish republican rebels came from their homes to the meeting places where they were organised. They were rebels but they were also people who lived in the city.



I don't know about the war crime weapons, it seemed like there was evidence on both sides that it was or wasn't used in a war-crime method but I'm not really arguing about that. For the footage of shooting at children, maybe it's one of those 'there's bad people on every side' type deal. We even saw that footage of an American soldier throwing a puppy off of a cliff. 

As far as the hiding in their own homes goes..and I'm not trying to be sarcastic with "(get this)" or anything, just trying to have a calm debate. I think if you're going to become a renegade aimed at taking innocent lives one of your first objectives should be to make sure harm doesn't come to those around you because of it. This could mean moving operations to a base / location away from homes where families are, and whatever else has to be done to ensure safety for innocent lives. (for their side anyways) Personally, if I were a terrorist, you're damn right I'd be hiding in my home putting all the families around me at risk. The second me and my terrorist buddies start a base away from the civilians, you bet your ass that shit's gonna be bombed from overhead. The whole idea of putting those around at me risk goes pretty well with my ideas anyway, which include disregard for innocent lives, and using the death of the innocent to try and make points to the world through media coverage (killing people on both sides does this). From a terrorist standpoint it's a good move, and I'd say well played. From an Israeli soldier standpoint, if I was a good normal person with a normal upbringing who doesn't have a more than a slight psychological problem leading me to enjoy shooting children, I'd say my objective would be to protect those around me and so in order to stop terrorists launching rockets, I'd probably just head on over there when I get permission and try to take them out without hurting civilians to the best of my abilities, and hope they don't make it too hard for me, but I don't know if their aim is to make things easy for me.


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## silentrage (Jan 24, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> Why would you shoot the missile in the first place if you're the kind of person who it would make sick? I don't understand.. These missiles aren't being shot just to make their point, they're being launched to kill people to make their point..the same way they did when there were more suicide bombings in places like pizza shops..



Eh... I was talking about the Israeli soldiers.
They're ordered to fire on Hamas militants, sometimes killing dozens of bystanders in the process. At least I hope they feel remorse in that.

The militans on the other hand, have no ways to stand up to oppression, they only have AKs, rockets and suicide bombing. 
As much as the media would have you believe, no one is born a fanatic, no one realy WANTS to bomb and kill people if they had been given a chance at a peaceful life.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> Why would you shoot the missile in the first place if you're the kind of person who it would make sick? I don't understand.. These missiles aren't being shot just to make their point, they're being launched to kill people to make their point..the same way they did when there were more suicide bombings in places like pizza shops..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I get the feeling you're not reading into this subject very much. 22 civilians have been killed by Hamas rockets since 2001 and up to 1000-1300 civilians have been killed by Israelis since the start of this war twenty something days ago.

They have clearly been using it in a war crimes context. It is a war crime to use White Phosphorous weapons in a civilian area and that is _precisely_ where the Israelis are using them. Look at footage of the White Phosphorous shells detonating and you will see the filaments hitting bulidings (which would then go on fire) and the streets.

You're also painting these people with the "terrorist" brush waaaay too quickly. Try and look at it from a Palestinian point of view. The "terrorists" have been _elected_ to government by the Palestinian people. What does that tell you about their mindset concerning the Israelis? They're not happy campers. Also, Hamas are not good guys (I'm not stupid) but to be brutally honest I'm backing them up on this. They didn't start this conflict and the ordinary Palestinians are having the shit hammered out of them for simply being there.

How is anyone supposed to build a base or operations in Gaza? The place is packed with people and there are nothing but housing complexes in the area. There's barely any agricultural areas. I don't think the Palestinian government would be able to build a base even if they wanted to due to such dense population.

I've noticed that Hamas didn't need to say or do anything to make me see what kind of monster Israel behaves like when it's not getting its way.

There are other threads dealing with this situation on this forum that you should read containing very good points:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/po...li-strike-hits-outside-un-school-34-dead.html
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-and-current-events/74983-disproportionate.html
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/politics-and-current-events/75354-an-open-letter-to-israel.html


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## mustang-monk (Jan 24, 2009)

tbh its not as if palestine is so innocent. Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield. hamas should accept the bit of palestine they have left.

tbh im a little bit tired of this issue theres constant threats of violence from muslims, outside the building i live in, theres spray paint every where saying free gaza or else face riots with pictures of guns, and every few days or so people start running up and down the road screamin "free gaza free palestine" at 3 in the morning. but thats what you get if you chose to study in bradford i guess.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> tbh its not as if palestine is so innocent. Hamas uses the civilian population as a human shield. hamas should accept the bit of palestine they have left.
> 
> tbh im a little bit tired of this issue theres constant threats of violence from muslims, outside the building i live in, theres spray paint every where saying free gaza or else face riots with pictures of guns, and every few days or so people start running up and down the road screamin "free gaza free palestine" at 3 in the morning. but thats what you get if you chose to study in bradford i guess.



Why should the Palestinians be happy to have the tiny plot of land after all their land was stolen from them by the British and handed over to the Zionists?

Is there not another thread where other members are arguing about whether or not citizens should riot if there is something wrong with the establishment?


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## mustang-monk (Jan 24, 2009)

There comes a time when you realise that your land is gone and you need to stop fighting to get it back cos youre gonna have massive repercussions. Native americans had their land quite brutally taken away from them from european settlers. If you want your land back and your gonna take it back by force then expect massive retaliation. The Jews believe isreal is their historic homeland, the muslims say it belongs to them. Im not saying its right that Isreal should use white phosphorus, isreal does horrible things to palestine, but both sides should just stop fighting be happy with the land they have and just get along with their lives.


im not saying any of this is right or wrong, but the world doesnt work on right and wrong. With isreals backing from western countries, amercan and britain etc then they can pretty much have the resources and political backing to do what they like to palestine.

http://www.arabsforisrael.com/articles/whyiloveisrael.html hey not all arabs are anti-zion.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> There comes a time when you realise that your land is gone and you need to stop fighting to get it back cos youre gonna have massive repercussions. Native americans had their land quite brutally taken away from them from european settlers. If you want your land back and your gonna take it back by force then expect massive retaliation.
> Im not saying its right that Isreal should use white phosphorus, isreal does horrible things to palestine, but both sides should just stop fighting be happy with the land they have and just get along with their lives.



Hamas are the elected representatives of the Palestinian people and Israel and America are refusing to even talk to them. Your diplomatic option has obviously failed.

We, as Irish people have been fighting the English for over 700 years to get our land back. Through a combination of violence and politics we were able to secure a large proportion of our land. 6 of our 32 counties are still under British control. I'm not condoning the use of violence but I'm being brutally honest here when I say I'm backing the Palestinian people.


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## mustang-monk (Jan 24, 2009)

There are also valid arguements infavour of a zionist state in palestine. According to the jews it is their promised land.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> There are also valid arguements infavour of a zionist state in palestine. According to the jews it is their promised land.



According to a book _thousands_ of years old... 

Seriously guys, it's like believing in 2012 but killing tens of thousands of people over it.

That, to me and presumably many others, is a argument that is full of shit. That same book says that you should kill homosexuals. Is that something else we should take as a "valid argument"?


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## bulletbass man (Jan 24, 2009)

Neal said:


> it's only a war crime when it's not committed by Israel or the US


 
Actually pretty much every country breaks numerous war crimes. If I recall correctly Snipers are actually illegal by some convention or treaty.


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## mustang-monk (Jan 24, 2009)

I think the jews deserve their own bit of land.


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## silentrage (Jan 24, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> I think the jews deserve their own bit of land.



Hey as long as we're going on this line of thought, shouldn't we evict half of Germany and give it to the jews? I mean they DID put Hitler in power.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

mustang-monk said:


> I think the jews deserve their own bit of land.



I also believe that every person regardless of creed, skin colour or religion deserves their own land but with the exception of when it's some Zionist thug who wants it at someone else's expense and by topping it off with 60 odd years of oppression to boot...

Sure, they could have lived peacefully in Palestine along side the native Palestinians but they ruined that dream thanks to British assistance.


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## Zand3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Hey Zero, I'd like to check out those numbers you were talking about with the thousands of civilians being killed. You might not have the research on-hand, but if you have anything I can read when I have time that you can link me to, hopefully from a trustworthy source (although who knows what that is) that would be schweet.

Also I was wondering about what kind of solution you might support. It seems like you don't want the Israeli people there anymore, but how do you evacuate a country. Israel is pretty much as modern as any modern country today, I've been there, and it's a great place to be. It's really beautiful and most people are social and nice..I can't say there isn't crime there, I heard there are high rates of crime. But I feel like if some native american tribe demanded some big city in America back, because it was developed on their land, how do we just say, alright everybody out. If that's not how you had it in mind let me know.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> Hey Zero, I'd like to check out those numbers you were talking about with the thousands of civilians being killed. You might not have the research on-hand, but if you have anything I can read when I have time that you can link me to, hopefully from a trustworthy source (although who knows what that is) that would be schweet.
> 
> Also I was wondering about what kind of solution you might support. It seems like you don't want the Israeli people there anymore, but how do you evacuate a country. Israel is pretty much as modern as any modern country today, I've been there, and it's a great place to be. It's really beautiful and most people are social and nice..I can't say there isn't crime there, I heard there are high rates of crime. But I feel like if some native american tribe demanded some big city in America back, because it was developed on their land, how do we just say, alright everybody out. If that's not how you had it in mind let me know.



I'll get you some now but do read those threads I linked. 

Not at all dude! My fairytale dream for Palestine/Israel is for all those people to just live together in one big happy country with no ill feeling towards one another. I would have not problem with Jewish people living in Palestine/Israel. This is just one heretical Atheist's perspective on the whole sorry mess...

EDIT: http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/10-day-truce-proposed-in-talks-with-hamas-israel
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7818022.stm

Not essential to the conversation but this has some interesting information regarding Hamas's capability to do damage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Qassam_Rocket_Attacks


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## Daemoniac (Jan 24, 2009)

There can be no peace. Simple as that. Both sides believe they are totally right, and both sides have religion backing them in their fight, which, again, is an absolute. The whole situation is just a joke, aided by British stupidity after WWII.


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## Zand3 (Jan 24, 2009)

Zero, I'm glad you want peace for both sides and everyone to be a big happy family in one country. Are you sure you support the Palestinians? haha

Okay, I just read through this stuff, and I feel like I need to back track a little bit, to recap my understanding. The international community denounces Hamas for it's violence and wants them to recognize Israel. My understanding of Hamas, correct me if I'm wrong, does not want Israel to exist, and wants a complete evacuation of Jews from Israel as their ultimate goal? The same way Palestinians had to leave their homes when there was fighting going on back in the day with all the wars, which were started by Muslim countries who wanted to stop Israel from becoming a state even though I feel like letting the UN figure this stuff out and allowing for peaceful negotiations would've given Palestinians the best chance of living in a shared state today, which there was a treaty for actually now that I think of that Muslims rejected and started a war, gosh I need to brush up on my history, no matter how many times I learn this stuff.. (we can assume that many of Hamas supporters and Muslim religious figures would like this wanted evacuation to occur through genocide..I have seen it often in clips of today's Muslim tv shows, where some muslim guy is preaching to a crowd in a mosque that the blood of the Jews must be spread across the bla bla..and so on) But I will assume that most Palestinians want killing to stop, and don't want any more blood-shed to be the means to the solution, yet they're supporting a group who isn't consistent with this, right? I'm referring to their election of Hamas. Now, it seems as though Hamas is trying to take land piece by piece when they can get it, through killing innocent, then when Israel reacts and unfortunately even more innocent die, which I wish they would work harder to make sure that doesn't happen while still taking out the bad guys, they complain about the blockade and all kinds of stuff, only to smuggle more rockets. It seems like they're not going to be reaching for a peaceful solution any time soon. So the only solution would be to force a peaceful solution right? Man, I hate saying solution so much, it makes me think of you know who. So, I'm thinking we somehow restrain all violent attempts to kill innocent people (but this means killing innocent people in the process..so how do you measure this, do we just let few die in Israel every month, which can be more later based on the abilities of the Qassams, or do we restrain the bad guys even if it means killing more innocent now unfortunately, so that we can some time in the future lift the blockade somewhat safely and in the future let Israel expand into Gaza and allow jobs for Palestinians and ..well.. life)

I know this is kind of a rant..but if I'm missing anything, which is probably a lot let me know. Maybe we can piece this together somehow haha


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 24, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> Zero, I'm glad you want peace for both sides and everyone to be a big happy family in one country. Are you sure you support the Palestinians? haha
> 
> Okay, I just read through this stuff, and I feel like I need to back track a little bit, to recap my understanding. The international community denounces Hamas for it's violence and wants them to recognize Israel. My understanding of Hamas, correct me if I'm wrong, does not want Israel to exist, and wants a complete evacuation of Jews from Israel as their ultimate goal? The same way Palestinians had to leave their homes when there was fighting going on back in the day with all the wars, which were started by Muslim countries who wanted to stop Israel from becoming a state even though I feel like letting the UN figure this stuff out and allowing for peaceful negotiations would've given Palestinians the best chance of living in a shared state today, which there was a treaty for actually now that I think of that Muslims rejected and started a war, gosh I need to brush up on my history, no matter how many times I learn this stuff.. (we can assume that many of Hamas supporters and Muslim religious figures would like this wanted evacuation to occur through genocide..I have seen it often in clips of today's Muslim tv shows, where some muslim guy is preaching to a crowd in a mosque that the blood of the Jews must be spread across the bla bla..and so on) But I will assume that most Palestinians want killing to stop, and don't want any more blood-shed to be the means to the solution, yet they're supporting a group who isn't consistent with this, right? I'm referring to their election of Hamas. Now, it seems as though Hamas is trying to take land piece by piece when they can get it, through killing innocent, then when Israel reacts and unfortunately even more innocent die, which I wish they would work harder to make sure that doesn't happen while still taking out the bad guys, they complain about the blockade and all kinds of stuff, only to smuggle more rockets. It seems like they're not going to be reaching for a peaceful solution any time soon. So the only solution would be to force a peaceful solution right? Man, I hate saying solution so much, it makes me think of you know who. So, I'm thinking we somehow restrain all violent attempts to kill innocent people (but this means killing innocent people in the process..so how do you measure this, do we just let few die in Israel every month, which can be more later based on the abilities of the Qassams, or do we restrain the bad guys even if it means killing more innocent now unfortunately, so that we can some time in the future lift the blockade somewhat safely and in the future let Israel expand into Gaza and allow jobs for Palestinians and ..well.. life)
> 
> I know this is kind of a rant..but if I'm missing anything, which is probably a lot let me know. Maybe we can piece this together somehow haha



I honestly support the Palestinians 100% after wall the shit they've been put through by the Israelis for the past 60 years.

Yes, Hamas are pretty extreme. But then Fatah are horribly corrupt so the Palestinians are damned either way. The way I look at it is that if the Palestinians are pissed off and miserable enough to vote in dickbags like Hamas then what does that tell you about how they feel they are treated by the Israelis?

The neighbouring states didn't want Israel formed not because of anti-Semitism (which, believe it or not wasn't a problem at all between Muslims and Jews until about 60 years ago...) but rather that the people forming it are the British, who fucked them over after they helped rid Arabia of the Turks and that the Zionist immigrants were kicking the shit out of the Palestinian locals. The wars went badly because Israel were armed and armoured by the British, who were a super-power at the time. In fairness, although the UN has done a great many good things in their time the Israeli situation isn't one of them.

Unfortunately it's the most ignorant and violent people who have the loudest voices. I can assure you that your average Arab/Muslim are ordinary, honest people who want the best for the world and not the mad Mullahs that they are portrayed by the Western media. Similarly, I know that most Americans are not Fundamentalist nutjobs that want a holy crusade through the Middle East to cleanse god's earth of the heathen Muslim scum. (On a side note: I tend to ignore anything that comes out of Saudi-Arabia because those guys are totally nuts. It really is unreal. America _should_ have invaded them instead).

One of the many reasons why the Palestinian people are fighting because the blockade is making their lives a misery. I find it helps to understand their situation by applying the classic "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom-fighter" adage. As Mischa (Daemoniac) has said countless times in these threads, people are not born suicide bombers. I'm a Psychology and Sociology student and as such I always ask myself "Why?" "Why do these people behave the way they do? Is it because of their religion? No, Islam is an Arabic term meaning 'Peace' and as such their religion is based around it. It must be something else..."

The thing is, if we kill thousands of Palestinians just in the name of protecting Israeli peace of mind then they've created more people who hate Israel because Israeli bombers murdered their wife/child/insert-family-member-here and more people that asshats like Hamas can recruit. It's a vicious cycle of the worst kind.

It's a sad situation...


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## Daemoniac (Jan 24, 2009)

So, on one side, you have people who have been repressed throughout history, and taken advantage of, beaten, and nearly destroyed as a civilisation (Israel). Fair enough. On the other side, you have people who have _also_ been nearly destroyed, blockaded, and taken advantage of by the western world (Palestine). 

Both those parties despise each other. Why? They both want the same physical things: Jerusalem, for one thing. That area is _the centre_ of so many religions, that all have a roughly similar root and origin, and their people want to claim it for themselves. This is why i say there will never be peace.

Personally, im with Palestine 100&#37; of the time, without question. Israel was not there before world war 2, there was_ no_ israel. In the time since they were given the land (on which there were actually people living), they've taken over more of the Palestinian land, they've used the "we were fucked on by Germany" pity line way too many times, and they've performed acts of violence as heinous as those perpetrated against them by the Nazi's... 

Its quite possibly the biggest act of mass hypocrisy i have heard of, and it's certainly no surprise that after being turned out of their homes, and then _more _of them being turned out of their homes during expansions, that the regular people in Palestine are going to despise not only Israel for doing it, but us (the western world) for allowing it to happen, and indeed being the catalyst _for_ it to happen. 

It is a terrible situation, and neither side is without guilt whatsoever. Hamas are doing things that are wrong, but what choice do they have? How else do they stand up for their own country? How else do the farmers, the general populace supposed to save their land and freedom? So far as they are concerned, Israel just wants them out, so that they can have the land.

Wars aren't what they used to be, either. The situation is screwed.


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## Zand3 (Jan 25, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> So, on one side, you have people who have been repressed throughout history, and taken advantage of, beaten, and nearly destroyed as a civilisation (Israel). Fair enough. On the other side, you have people who have _also_ been nearly destroyed, blockaded, and taken advantage of by the western world (Palestine).
> 
> Both those parties despise each other. Why? They both want the same physical things: Jerusalem, for one thing. That area is _the centre_ of so many religions, that all have a roughly similar root and origin, and their people want to claim it for themselves. This is why i say there will never be peace.
> 
> ...



Well, I'm pretty sure Israel gained more land because of wars that the Muslim countries started. They rejected peace, brought war, and lost even more land. But I still want to hear what you guys think about the solutions I was talking about...because I don't think a solution is for Israel to not exist. Like I said, it's like native americans walking into an american city and being like, alright everybody out.

Oh okay, Zero, I see what you're saying. If we force the peace through war, we're gonna have people afterwards who were upset by the war...but are you sure that's going to make more people want to resort to fighting? It's clear that the Hamas efforts are only causing more people to die, so I would think that the more people die, the less the people are going to support encouraging the enemy.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 25, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure Israel gained more land because of wars that the Muslim countries started. They rejected peace, brought war, and lost even more land. But I still want to hear what you guys think about the solutions I was talking about...because I don't think a solution is for Israel to not exist. Like I said, it's like native americans walking into an american city and being like, alright everybody out.



I dont think the answer is to destroy the country of Israel either, im not one for turning people out of their homes... I think it was wrong of the UN to create Israel in the first place, but i have no resolution, no possible way out of this, nor do i pretend to. This is a war of absolutes, caused by stupidity. It will end the same way, and not well by any stretch.

When it comes to situations like this, there's really very little, to nothing, anyone can do to resolve it in an amiable fashion towards _both_ sides. 

As for the "they brought war, rejected peace etc.. etc.." That was soon after they were _turned out of their homes, and basically told "Get fucked. This is Israel now"..._ I mean, honestly, can you blame them? Really? I know sure as shit i'd wreck shit up if someone turned me out of my home, city, and area so someone else could live there...



Zand3 said:


> Oh okay, Zero, I see what you're saying. If we force the peace through war, we're gonna have people afterwards who were upset by the war...but are you sure that's going to make more people want to resort to fighting? It's clear that the Hamas efforts are only causing more people to die, so I would think that the more people die, the less the people are going to support encouraging the enemy.



The Hamas efforts are causing more deaths only because both parties are locked in a perpetual testosterone-fest of one-upmanship when it comes to this. Neither side will _ever_ feel like they have got justice, until they have hte last word. THe thing about the way Israel does things though, is that when they 'retaliate', they kill hundreds of innocent people along with a couple to a few valid targets.

It _is_ a terrible situation, and i have no doubt that Hamas hide amongst civillians, but where else do they go? For me, seeing as how Israel _has_ a really good military, they should actually come up with ways around this other than simply "launch a fuckton of missiles at crowded areas, and then we'll enter with illegal near-napalm weapons to flush them out"... its illogical, immoral, and paints a very poor picture of them for the rest of the world.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 25, 2009)

Zand3 said:


> Well, I'm pretty sure Israel gained more land because of wars that the Muslim countries started. They rejected peace, brought war, and lost even more land. But I still want to hear what you guys think about the solutions I was talking about...because I don't think a solution is for Israel to not exist. Like I said, it's like native americans walking into an american city and being like, alright everybody out.
> 
> Oh okay, Zero, I see what you're saying. If we force the peace through war, we're gonna have people afterwards who were upset by the war...but are you sure that's going to make more people want to resort to fighting? It's clear that the Hamas efforts are only causing more people to die, so I would think that the more people die, the less the people are going to support encouraging the enemy.



There's very little I can add to Daemoniac's post. And as myself and Daemoniac put it above, they rejected peace because they were simply told "OK, we fucked you over, turned you out of your homes and generally treated you like shit... I hope we're cool man... " Not going to happen. Imagine if the entirety of Mexico came in and moved into New York and kicked the (not-so) natives out and set up a new state of New New Mexico. That wouldn't go down very well now would it? You'd think the Americans would retaliate with force and not diplomacy.

Of course it will. We're watching it happen every day in Palestine. The more people who die the more they hate the murderer, not the catalyst. Sure, the catalyst might get blamed and dissolved through public action but then it's going to be replaced by another similar force. If Russia/China/Canada/Whoever invaded and killed a load of Americans including some of your school buddies and your parents then you'd be pretty fuckin' pissed. Chances are you'd join the army to try and take some sort of revenge.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 25, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Chances are you'd join the army to try and take some sort of revenge.



And seeing as how Palestine doesn't have an 'official' armed force to join, the ones who are angry enough, who've had the most taken from them/done to them become the entity "Hamas". Yes, they have done, and are doing terrible things, and they _should_ have to answer for them, but not through a totally disproportionate, overreaction by the country who they believe fucked them over... what's happening in Gaza at the moment is "An eye for your torso" disproportionate.

I respect Israels _right_ to retaliate after attacks on their country, but only if they do it in a manner that is at the very least even abiding by the Geneva convention for one. If that were the case, not only would there be less hate from the rest of the world and demands for them to have a look at the way they are doing things, but theres a good chance a lot of Palestinians would hate them a lot less... The extremist side will never not hate them, no matter what, but were Israel to try going about war in a manner that doesn't resemble Nazi Germany they'd have a lot less normal Palestinians who want them dead for destroying their livelihoods, families, and taking their land.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 26, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> ...The extremist side will never not hate them, no matter what, but were Israel to try going about war in a manner that doesn't resemble Nazi Germany they'd have a lot less normal Palestinians who want them dead for destroying their livelihoods, families, and taking their land.



This is a very important point. It really looks like Israel is just echoing Nazi Germany and doing a similar thing to what was done to them to someone else that they perceive as a problem. It's another ring to the vicious circle.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 26, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> This is a very important point. It really looks like Israel is just echoing Nazi Germany and doing a similar thing to what was done to them to someone else that they perceive as a problem. It's another ring to the vicious circle.



And of course if you dont support the existence of Israel your anti-jewish/racist/asshole in general right?


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 26, 2009)

let me ask you something:

if some creep went up to your little sister and told her he wanted to fuck her
do you 

a) push him away
or 
b) crush his fucking face in?


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 26, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> let me ask you something:
> 
> if some creep went up to your little sister and told her he wanted to fuck her
> do you
> ...



I choose "c) Get an uglier sister".

What are you trying to get at here?


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## silentrage (Jan 26, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> let me ask you something:
> 
> if some creep went up to your little sister and told her he wanted to fuck her
> do you
> ...



You build walls around his house and make sure him and his family don't get food, water or medication. Duh.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 26, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> let me ask you something:
> 
> if some creep went up to your little sister and told her he wanted to fuck her
> do you
> ...



Does it make a difference if that guy was the one you turned out of their own house, took over, and then forced them from the block as well under pain of death, barricaded their old haunts, and told to get fucked?


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 26, 2009)

Stealthtastic said:


> And of course if you dont support the existence of Israel your anti-jewish/racist/asshole in general right?



Damn. You got me!


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2009)

silentrage said:


> You build walls around his house and make sure him and his family don't get food, water or medication. Duh.





That made my week.


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## guitarplayerone (Jan 26, 2009)

silentrage said:


> You build walls around his house and make sure him and his family don't get food, water or medication. Duh.



what is funny is that that is more or less exactly what I would do in a perfect world. 

castrate a couple of creeps in the street and you'll see what happens to child molestation rates.

the US is far to p.c. to understand the israeli-palestinian conflict takes a lot more than reading some news articles that are the new fad in 'wtf we cant write about how much bush sucks anymore in the news. got some more?'

The conflict goes back to the days right after WWII and people have been dying since the beginning on both sides. After years of suicide bombings, etc I wouldn't tolerate any rockets either. You have to visit that area of the world to truly understand- there are no 'innocent bystanders'. people are there because they refuse to leave, there are routes to get weapons in through egypt but do you see people fleeing to egypt? The geopolitical situation in that part of the world is much much more complicated than people seem to make it out to be. 

but I digress. Every israeli child, no matter how young, will grow up to fight in the Israeli Defense Force and kill _muslims_. They kill _muslims_. Always. This is a holy war. Between Islam and Judaism. Whatever you think of that, fine. I personally find it Irrelevant. What did you expect them to do? They cannot show weakness surrounded by Lebanon and Syria. A more placid response would have simply shown that they were weak, sure lets fire some more rockets at schools.

Btw they fucking CALL people on the PHONE telling them about a bombing that's about to occur before they bomb. Two fucking hours. They fly planes over and drop leaflets. And you tell me that its too much?

Just my peeve is people reading something in the news that might have been pulled out of some reporter's ass, which hasn't even been confirmed, and then stating that as fact. And furthermore jumping on the bandwagon without any deep understanding of the situation. Which is fine. Who wants to learn about the tumultuous history of a region of the earth which you will never visit. But I say this: until you go see for yourself; don't pass your emotions, hearsay, and everything else that you get along second, thirdhand along telling everyone it's fact.

Go see for yourself.

Otherwise you're just playing telephone.


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> You have to visit that area of the world to truly understand- there are no 'innocent bystanders'.



[action= ]sigh[/action]


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## Daemoniac (Jan 27, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> what is funny is that that is more or less exactly what I would do in a perfect world.



Wow. Just wow. I dont think theres anything else i can say to that.



guitarplayerone said:


> castrate a couple of creeps in the street and you'll see what happens to child molestation rates.



Nothing will change about them. They may 'seem' to dip, but only because they will hide it more, find _more_ heinous ways to go about their fetishes, because _its a mental issue_. Usually its _not_ something that they can control... The point is totally irrelevent, inhumane, and honestly against the entire basis of (the western worlds at least) legal/judicial system.



guitarplayerone said:


> the US is far to p.c. to understand the israeli-palestinian conflict takes a lot more than reading some news articles that are the new fad in 'wtf we cant write about how much bush sucks anymore in the news. got some more?'



I dont live in the US, and, while i am going on what i read, theres a load of info thats been there for _way _longer than just your supposed 'oh shit theres no more Bush' thing.



guitarplayerone said:


> The conflict goes back to the days right after WWII and people have been dying since the beginning on both sides.



Yes. There have been. Know why? _Palestinians were turned from their homes and their land for no other reason than a stupid bid from the UN to 'create' a state of Israel after WWII._



guitarplayerone said:


> After years of suicide bombings, etc I wouldn't tolerate any rockets either.



Well, to be fair, neither would anyone. What everyone is saying, is that they need to go about their 'retaliations' in a more reasonable fashion (ie: _not_ using weapons that are illegal, or bombing _civillian institutions_, or _killing hundreds of civillians_ etc... you know?).



guitarplayerone said:


> You have to visit that area of the world to truly understand- there are no 'innocent bystanders'.



Yes, there are. The people who _try_ tp just go about their business, the ones who simply want to pray to their god, work, live, and enjoy what they have. _They_ are the innocent bystanders, the ones who are _constantly_ getting killed by off Israeli rockets, the ones in Israel who are killed by Hamas rockets... there are innocents on both sides and you're a fool for saying otherwise.



guitarplayerone said:


> people are there because they refuse to leave, there are routes to get weapons in through egypt but do you see people fleeing to egypt?



And why _should_ they flee to Egypt?? What POSSIBLE reason could the Palestinians have to go to Egypt? They dont want to leave the _rest_ of their country after being turned out of what little they had to begin with, they want it back, and honestly i cant blame them, although i dont feel the way their going about it is a good one.



guitarplayerone said:


> The geopolitical situation in that part of the world is much much more complicated than people seem to make it out to be.



No, its really not.
- Israelites are put through hell in WWII by Nazi Germany. As both 'compensation', and guilt, with a good dash of stupidity for good measure, the UN turns out the Palestinians in the Gaza strip to creat what is now the state of Israel.
- Bombings start from the get-go. After being _turned out of their homes_, the Palestinians want their land back.
- Israel starts to retaliate, bombings continue on both sides.

Basically, the hate continues on both sides, neither will give up their land, the Palestinians want 'their' land back, and the Isralis think the land was promised them by God... They all distrust each other, and neither side will back down, because both side believe with utter conviction that they are correct.



guitarplayerone said:


> but I digress. Every israeli child, no matter how young, will grow up to fight in the Israeli Defense Force and kill _muslims_. They kill _muslims_. Always. This is a holy war. Between Islam and Judaism. Whatever you think of that, fine. I personally find it Irrelevant.



It's completely relevant; it explains _why_ neither will back down. Religious wars are wars of absolutes, and when both parties believe they are perfectly correct with god on their side, why would they stop?



guitarplayerone said:


> What did you expect them to do? They cannot show weakness surrounded by Lebanon and Syria. A more placid response would have simply shown that they were weak, sure lets fire some more rockets at schools.



They could get the _exact_ same response, getting the people they wanted, using a _reasonable_ reaction, as opposed to _blowing up internationally funded institutions_.



guitarplayerone said:


> Btw they fucking CALL people on the PHONE telling them about a bombing that's about to occur before they bomb. Two fucking hours. They fly planes over and drop leaflets. And you tell me that its too much?



Oh gee, how FUCKING CONSIDERATE OF THEM. Thanks a fucking bunch Israel, you dropped _flyers_ over the UNITED NATIONS SCHOOL, warning them in advance they would blow _the school_ up... What a fantastic idea.



guitarplayerone said:


> Just my peeve is people reading something in the news that might have been pulled out of some reporter's ass, which hasn't even been confirmed, and then stating that as fact.



This story wasnt 'pulled out of some reporters ass'. Its real. Just like the rest of the bombings, just like all of the _innocent_ victims over there, the ones whose lives have been ruined, whose houses are destroyed, whose children have been killed. And im not just talking about Palestine here.



guitarplayerone said:


> And furthermore jumping on the bandwagon without any deep understanding of the situation. Which is fine. Who wants to learn about the tumultuous history of a region of the earth which you will never visit. But I say this: until you go see for yourself; don't pass your emotions, hearsay, and everything else that you get along second, thirdhand along telling everyone it's fact.



You clearly havent read the rest of the thread if you're saying we dont have at least a reasonable understanding of the situation. We will _never_ understand first hand, because we arent jews, nor are we palestinians, nor have we been brought up on both sides to completely understand first hand.

We may not live their, but at least we understand that there are innocent bystanders in _any_ conflict.


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## ZeroSignal (Jan 27, 2009)

Actually Daemoniac the death toll is officially in the thousands. 

And Roman, last time the Palestinians tried to flee to Egypt they were repelled by the Egyptian border patrols with live gunfire. 

I find it amusing that you're saying that _we_ should all be looking further into the nature of the conflict when we (Read: Mostly Daemoniac ) have just poked holes in your post. If you read this thread and others you will find that we are more than capable at putting forward a rational debate on this subject.

Seriously dude, take my New New Mexico analogy. Do you really think that the New York city people displaced by this fictional conflict wouldn't fight back? Would they simply shrug their shoulders and live in New Jersey instead and never do anything about it? Not fucking likely...


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## Daemoniac (Jan 27, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Actually Daemoniac the death toll is officially in the thousands.


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## silentrage (Jan 27, 2009)

guitarplayerone said:


> what is funny is that that is more or less exactly what I would do in a perfect world.
> 
> castrate a couple of creeps in the street and you'll see what happens to child molestation rates.



Well that's your approach. In the middle ages people had their hands cut off for stealing, but the reason they're stealing was poverty, so it was a retarded thing to do. People who made the law simply were too ignorant to see the world from another perspective. 

If it was up to me, A. put more cameras in churches so little kids don't get molested., that should reduce said crime by 90&#37;, lol. 
B. Get those people some serious psychological help, find out if people are born pedophiles or become that way, and find ways to prevent it. That's just the icing on the cake.


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## Daemoniac (Feb 3, 2009)

silentrage said:


> If it was up to me, A. put more cameras in churches so little kids don't get molested., that should reduce said crime by 90%, lol.
> B. Get those people some serious psychological help, find out if people are born pedophiles or become that way, and find ways to prevent it. That's just the icing on the cake.



A peaceful and equally effective resolution.

I dont know if its already been posted, but this is what white phosphorous is and does...:



> *WIKIPEDIA:
> 
> *However, white phosphorus has a secondary effect. While much less efficient than ordinary fragmentation effects in causing casualties, white phosphorus burns quite fiercely and can set cloth, fuel, ammunition and other combustibles on fire. It also can function as an anti-personnel weapon with the compound capable of causing serious burns or death.[2] The agent is used in bombs, artillery, and mortars, short-range missiles which burst into burning flakes of phosphorus upon impact. White phosphorus is commonly referred to in military jargon as "WP". The slang term "Willy(ie) Pete" or "Willy(ie) Peter", dating from World War I and common at least through the Vietnam War, is still occasionally heard.
> 
> ...




It's disgusting, as you can see.


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