# What the hell going on with DT and "The Astonishing"?



## The Mirror (Dec 22, 2016)

Just to summarize it:

There was a full Astonishing tour.

There will be some sort of Broadway Musical.

There will be a novelization of the story.

A mobile game / video game will be released, soon.

There is talks of a god damn movie and who knows what else.


Is there something I just don't get here? The record was okay, at least above your average DT record of the last time, however the "story" was a generic, boring "young-adult" dystopia, which brought basically nothing new to the table. 

Am I loosing my mind or is it DT that's gone totally mental? All that merchandise and promotion for a simple record? Were the sales that phenomenal that such a thing is profitable? Did DT just become the new mainstream sensation of the Century? I don't even...


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## Mathemagician (Dec 22, 2016)

If people think it will sell, they will back the idea. If DT includes some provisions where they bear some risk, it's even better for the sellers. I don't even get DT most of the time in general, so this doesn't really surprise me. 

Remember, Slayer once had branded shoes. $$$ is all that counts.


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## The Omega Cluster (Dec 22, 2016)

Yeah, they've gone completely mental on this. The music was very sub-par, if you ask me, and the concept was a generic re-hash of every generic dystopian story ever. I've just watched the trailer for The Astonishing Game (I think that's what it's called), and it's basically just a chess games with the story's characters in it. The novel might prove interesting, but given the album's concept, it's highly improbable. The movie won't be something big, it just cannot be. It will most probably be a sort of 30 min. to 1 hour-long thing, either with the same kind of horrible animated paintings we've all seen or a rather cheap cast of actors with an unexperienced director, etc. I didn't hear about the Broadway musical, but I don't want to.


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## DLG (Dec 22, 2016)

DT fanboys will buy anything. it's a terrible album.


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## The Mirror (Dec 22, 2016)

DLG said:


> DT fanboys will buy anything. it's a terrible album.



Sure, that might be a thing. 

I once considered myself to be a DT fanboy, too (obviously), though that only lasted til probably Systematic Chaos. I just don't see what makes "The Astonishing" different to all the other's before. 

A shoe-horned "story" would probably work in every single post Octavarium DT record. 

It's just, I could understand if they did such a thing for a possible Metropolis Pt. 3. Not that I would care about such a thing, but it has a name big enough to all DT fans that it would justify a big merchandise approach. 

The Astonishing is just so god damn bland. It's like someone would try to make a franchise out of any most recent, unimaginative teeny novel. 

Oh, wait...


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## TedEH (Dec 22, 2016)

Lots of conversation around here about how "the biz is dying" - so it makes perfect sense to me that a band would try to grow the brand and create as many revenue streams as possible. This is exactly the whole "sell the brand, not the music" thing we always talk about. That's how a lot of business functions. It's not exactly a new concept in music either - I mean just look at KISS. They're rich because of merchandise, not because the music is any good.


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## You (Dec 22, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> The Astonishing is just so god damn bland. It's like someone would try to make a franchise out of any most recent, unimaginative teeny novel.
> 
> Oh, wait...












Examples of such.


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## TheShreddinHand (Dec 22, 2016)

It's because no one apparently has the cajones to tell JP it was a stupid idea. This is his brainchild, he wrote the whole story, and he said all along that he envisioned it having all this extra crap (game, book, etc.). Yes, he and JR wrote all the music together, but I can't believe no one stepped up and told him the overall story is pretty dumb and all this other crap isn't needed.

Ultimately it must have gotten through because they think they'll make more $$ than it takes to produce but I'm a huge DT fan and I have zero interest in the game, book etc. The album was OK at best with a couple really great songs (gift of music, our new world), but the other 2 hours was laborious.

Guarantee this wouldn't have flown if MP was still in the band.


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## movingpictures (Dec 22, 2016)

Astonishing how bad this all is... Trooch has gone mental


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## Slunk Dragon (Dec 22, 2016)

Suffice to say, this album made me not care about Dream Theater, anymore. I listened to it all the way through once. I can only think of one song that's actually interesting to me, and the story is just too cliched and boring. I'm baffled they're doing this much crap with it.


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## You (Dec 22, 2016)

movingpictures said:


> Astonishing how bad this all is... Trooch has gone mental



+1 Like


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## Duosphere (Dec 22, 2016)

Just like with everything in life, there'll be people who will love, hate and don't care.
The same with The Astonishing.
What is crap to you, it's a masterpiece to another one and vice-versa.
Opinions are only opinions and not facts.
So this thread is nonsense.


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## JoeChugs (Dec 22, 2016)

Just a way to further monetize the release. The band is obviously very proud of it, and think they're on to something. Honestly I'd be more interested in seeing the movie than listening to it again.


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## Demiurge (Dec 22, 2016)

I thought it was a bit presumptuous for them to have show programs with a "cast of characters" for their recent tour dates to accompany the reject Final Fantasy cutscenes playing on the video screens. It's not an interesting story and, unfortunately not a good album. Kind of like Metallica, DT seems to have no one around them to advise them if something is a crummy idea.


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## Mordacain (Dec 22, 2016)

Demiurge said:


> I thought it was a bit presumptuous for them to have show programs with a "cast of characters" for their recent tour dates to accompany the reject Final Fantasy cutscenes playing on the video screens. It's not an interesting story and, unfortunately not a good album. Kind of like Metallica, DT seems to have no one around them to advise them if something is a crummy idea.



Man, don't diss FF cutscenes like that; The Astonishing atrocities are nowhere near as good as FF 

As far as the album goes, I actually didn't hate it and there a couple of decent tracks but I agree all the surrounding media campaign and the story itself is utterly insipid.


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## chopeth (Dec 23, 2016)

Simple, they don't get used to the idea of this album sucking hairy monkey balls and they want us to like it no matter how...


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## mgh (Dec 23, 2016)

I have to say the album has grown on me. I haven't read the lyrics though so just going on the music. It's too long and the main theme could be stronger but there are some vintage prog moments. I still hate the drum production and even the drum playing is far weaker than Portnoy...


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## Bucks (Dec 23, 2016)

the tour has been a complete failure.
the images and words tour they are doing in europe in 2017 was supposed to be a 2nd run of the astonishing but they have been forced to change as ticket sales have been so awful.


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## katsumura78 (Dec 23, 2016)

The album on its own was whatever. I don't hate it but there's not enough cool moments to hold my interest. Watching it live was sick though, Petrucci did some lead work throughout the show that is no where to be found on the cd. The guy still has some insane chops and melody. Hope they drop this astonishing stuff and go back to what they do best. On another note those JP-2C's sound incredible in person and Petrucci is working on an 8 string majesty shape !


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## Demiurge (Dec 23, 2016)

Bucks said:


> the tour has been a complete failure.
> the images and words tour they are doing in europe in 2017 was supposed to be a 2nd run of the astonishing but they have been forced to change as ticket sales have been so awful.



I can account only for the show I went to in October, but the venue was only about half-full while they typically draw well in the region. The whole "we're playing the new album in its entirety" deal is a prog tradition, but maybe it was too hard of a sell.


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## ThomasUV777 (Dec 23, 2016)

Bucks said:


> the tour has been a complete failure.
> the images and words tour they are doing in europe in 2017 was supposed to be a 2nd run of the astonishing but they have been forced to change as ticket sales have been so awful.



With ridiculous ticket prices I might add. I was considering of going, but images & words without Portnoy = no.


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## Bucks (Dec 23, 2016)

ThomasUV777 said:


> With ridiculous ticket prices I might add. I was considering of going, but images & words without Portnoy = no.



I think at this point petrucci should just realise that DT just can't do it without Mike Portnoy. They tried and it hasn't worked.

I'm sure MP would probably go back, he doesn't seem to be able to let go of DT, every interview he does he mentions the band.


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## Ralyks (Dec 23, 2016)

I would consider myself a DT fanboy, they're my favorite band second to only Fates Warning... and I still haven't listened to The Astonishing all the way through, and agree this is overkill. Really didn't keep my attention. I have no problem with the post-Portnoy material for the most part, but for a concept album, Scenes from a Memory this ain't.


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## The Mirror (Dec 23, 2016)

Bucks said:


> I think at this point petrucci should just realise that DT just can't do it without Mike Portnoy. They tried and it hasn't worked.



I absolutely love Mangini's playing in DT and there were times (ADTOE) I thought it was the right step to continue without MP. However after three records and this seemingly "weird" direction Petrucci is taking the band I certainly see what part Portnoy played in the bands direction. 

It wasn't all great either with him, as he was very much into a more standard metal mood at the time he left, however considering that he wanted DT to take a hiatus, being able to play the stuff he wanted to at that time and then coming back after, say, 5 years to start fresh into something new, would probably have been a perfect choice.

Just think about what these guys could come up with if they'd actually let some ideas grow over a couple of years, instead of jumping into the studio every other year. 

I mean, A Change of Seasons was how long in the writing? 5 or 6 years? Certainly didn't hurt the track.


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## Ralyks (Dec 23, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> It wasn't all great either with him, as he was very much into a more standard metal mood at the time he left, however considering that he wanted DT to take a hiatus, being able to play the stuff he wanted to at that time and then coming back after, say, 5 years to start fresh into something new, would probably have been a perfect choice.



I think the issue with that was, if I recall, while Portnoy has a new project every 5 minutes, the rest of the guys more or less depend on DT for their main source of income, thus taking 5 years off would have hurt them financial and hey, they have families and gotta eat too. I don't know if this holds true to Petrucci, but wouldn't be surprised with the other guys.

I could be wrong about this but I feel like that was what was one of the main concerns.


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## You (Dec 23, 2016)

Duosphere said:


> Just like with everything in life, there'll be people who will love, hate and don't care.
> The same with The Astonishing.
> What is crap to you, it's a masterpiece to another one and vice-versa.
> Opinions are only opinions and not facts.
> So this thread is nonsense.



I agree with thy statement regarding the subjectivity of music, I would disagree with the final part of your statement for as people are entitled to express their opinion, regardless if positive or negative.


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## Demiurge (Dec 23, 2016)

You said:


> I agree with thy statement regarding the subjectivity of music, I would disagree with the final part of your statement for as people are entitled to express their opinion, regardless if positive or negative.



A discussion board is always an odd place to decry the exchange of opinions as an unworthy form of discourse, no?


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## Rachmaninoff (Dec 23, 2016)

Bucks said:


> I think at this point petrucci should just realise that DT just can't do it without Mike Portnoy. They tried and it hasn't worked.
> 
> I'm sure MP would probably go back, he doesn't seem to be able to let go of DT, every interview he does he mentions the band.



They should bring Portnoy back and kick LaBrie out... 



The Mirror said:


> I absolutely love Mangini's playing in DT



I must remark that he doesn't have 10% of the energy he displayed at the auditions. When watching that, I though "this guy is sick, it's gonna be great!", then I see him on stage doing a bureaucratic work, lifeless.



The Mirror said:


> However after three records and this seemingly "weird" direction Petrucci is taking the band I certainly see what part Portnoy played in the bands direction.



Me too. An important part.


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## fps (Dec 23, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> I absolutely love Mangini's playing in DT and there were times (ADTOE) I thought it was the right step to continue without MP. However after three records and this seemingly "weird" direction Petrucci is taking the band I certainly see what part Portnoy played in the bands direction.
> 
> It wasn't all great either with him, as he was very much into a more standard metal mood at the time he left, however considering that he wanted DT to take a hiatus, being able to play the stuff he wanted to at that time and then coming back after, say, 5 years to start fresh into something new, would probably have been a perfect choice.
> 
> ...



Thought ADTOE was their best record in ages, and hoped it was the start of something new for the band. But the drummer being a yes-man has certainly harmed the band, and we can now say that with certainty. They weren't writing great music with Portnoy in the band any more either (although I love the Count of Tuscany) but he may have been right that they needed to break and re-tool.


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## oompa (Dec 23, 2016)

The thing with them is that they haven't done anything innovative since SFAM 15 years ago, they kind of stopped progressing after that. And that's not bad at all, they really did progress metal forward, several steps, and did it for a long time. 

6D was still an alright album, but up to that point every album was new, fresh, had cool ideas, themes, sound, it was experimental and creative. Even the reactions to FII the first time people heard the new sound, they were sceptical until they got into it.

They perfected it with SFAM as a concept album with everything DT as a band had learned and developed, after that they've been pumping out the same album over and over, you know exactly what you get before you buy it. And that's not bad if you like that sound/music ofc, if you wanted them for their progressiveness, then you lost them around there imo


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## technomancer (Dec 23, 2016)

Oh look the same guys that have been bitching about The Astonishing since it came out are still bitching about The Astonishing 

As for the tour not sure about elsewhere but the show here was sold out 

Does anyone have any actual numbers for ticket or album sales? All I can find is the ~30k copies sold initially. Given it's a double album and it's in the same ballpark as sales of the previous several albums that's not bad.


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## Duosphere (Dec 23, 2016)

technomancer said:


> Oh look the same guys that have been bitching about The Astonishing since it came out are still bitching about The Astonishing


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## The Mirror (Dec 23, 2016)

technomancer said:


> Oh look the same guys that have been bitching about The Astonishing since it came out are still bitching about The Astonishing



It's definitely crazy. I started this thread without any hate towards Astonishing itself, just criticizing the merchandise / promotion.

I mean, I don't really like it and didn't make it through the full record because I was bored, but... oh well.


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 24, 2016)

The Mirror said:


> It's definitely crazy. I started this thread without any hate towards Astonishing itself, just criticizing the merchandise / promotion.
> 
> I mean, I don't really like it and didn't make it through the full record because I was bored, but... oh well.



Seems you're misconstruing the facts a bit, specifically making them sound a little more impressive than they actually are. You'll have to help me with the details, however, because I have not been following the Astonishing very closely after I saw DT perform it at the first London show: 

*Novelization:* Saw DT announce this on Facebook. Looked into the author when the news broke because I didn't know the name (Peter Orullian), and to be frank I don't think they went with him because of his literary accomplishments. This isn't exactly Stephan King they've hired here. Here's his website. It is not uncommon for novelizations to be made these days--not just of movies, but of video games, comics, toys, etc., in other words, things that might not always deserve to be made into novels--and depending on the IP, they might get a semi-well-known author to do it or some random employee's uncle to do it instead. This is a case of the latter, I think. Not trying to sh!t on the guys career, but regardless of his skills, it is clear why they chose him: he's a friend of Jordan's, maybe also of James Labrie, and was an amateur musician more or less 'playing Labrie' in all these prog metal projects before pursuing writing. I suspect this is how they met, and having a friend who knows your music and who also happens to have a fantasy series published through TOR books, I guess that would make pursuing a novelization of your album a lot easier. Anyway, TOR is a huge publisher of fantasy and sci-fi, but I'd imagine this guy is pretty far down the roster list. So I wouldn't assume this novelization is more than a hobby project between friends, honestly. And besides, if the price of the book is any indication ($75, I think?), they're expecting like 1000 people to buy it (maybe less). I know it sounds like I'm being a dick, but I'm just trying to reinforce the fact that a novelization of the album isn't an inherently grand thing--it isn't the sign of sweeping success that you're assuming it to be. 

*Broadway:* Is it true that there WILL be a broadway musical? I just saw Petrucci mention that he'd like to see it come to stage at some point, or that he thought it had potential. Has it been confirmed that it's happening? If so, for how long will it run? Under what advertisement? Again, I wouldn't assume DT is trying to make it the next Cats. 

*Tour:* Well obviously. Not sure why you included this. 

*Mobile game:* to resurrect an old gaming term from the 80s and 90s: it's shovelware. Video games have been doing this for years now. Make some ....ty, free mobile app, throw it on the iTunes store 'for visibility' and it's free advertising. It's basically step 2 in 'establish a digitial media presence' for product launches now. Super annoying and weird to see DT going that route, but not all that surprising in this day and age. 

*Movie:* Again...no way. Don't believe the rumours. No studio would back this in this day and age where movie budgets are like 5 million or 200 million with nothing inbetween. Not saying I hate the album, but it is a cliche premise that'd take a LOT of cinematic work to make it not cheesy, and no one is going to fund that. I'd be extremely surprised if anything ever came of it. But who knows? Portnoy is a huge film buff and a movie director geek--this could be his next big gig and a chance to get back into DT! 

*TL;DR:* This is what you get in the post-Napster era of music. Bands don't just tour a lot, they have media companies representing them that milk the albums for all their worth. If they can pursue alternate revenue streams on the cheap and with a return on an investment, they're going to try. No, this isn't proof of Petrucci being off his rocker, nor that the album was so wildly successful that novelists, movie directors, and broadway talent agencies are banging down their door to buy the rights. 

As for the Images and Words tour, why are we assuming it's related to the (failure of) the Astonishing? The Astonishing show I went to was packed (to counter an earlier anecdote), and DT has always celebrated significant band anniversaries. Given that Images and Words in arguably their best received album (right up there with Scenes from a Memory), obviously there's going to be a huge demand to see them perform it, so they made it a tour vs. a single show. Doesn't mean the DT guys are broke and coming off an utter disappointment of an album. I wasn't the biggest fan of the Astonishing either, but Jesus, come on now.


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## gfactor (Dec 24, 2016)

I love DT and this album was a huge disappointment. The music is decent but has lots of filler and the story.... Sooooooooo lame and they are going 110% in on it still after it's been out for so a while.


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## fps (Dec 24, 2016)

oompa said:


> They perfected it with SFAM as a concept album with everything DT as a band had learned and developed, after that they've been pumping out the same album over and over, you know exactly what you get before you buy it. And that's not bad if you like that sound/music ofc, if you wanted them for their progressiveness, then you lost them around there imo



Pretty much this, except I like ToT as a metulz departure. They lost me totally after that album for the reasons you describe. If *progressive* has become a set, predictable thing, it's kinda failed.


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## thedonal (Dec 25, 2016)

I still haven't listened past disc 1 of the album. Because each disc is 15-20 shortish tracks, it made even disc 1 feel like it was twice as long.

And I haven't been compelled to spare the time to focus on it. I didn't dislike it, but the story and the character names did seem very cheesy to me. 

I considered seeing the London Palladium show, but it was nearly sold out when I looked- and £85 each for the seats left seemed a bit steep to me.

It does seem to have attracted a lot of positive words from the critics though...


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## Xiphos68 (Dec 25, 2016)

There's some good discussion in this thread concerning DT. 
I saw them for the first time three weeks ago and I cried several times upon hearing John Petrucci playing his solos that I've been waiting to hear for so long. I forgot how much I loved that man and his playing. 
Anyway, it was cool seeing The Astonishing live and I'll admit it is much better live than the album. As someone said, he did throw in some extra-bits as well. 
Not a fan of the album personally as whole or the previous one as well. ADTOE had some great songs and moments but I still like BC&SL as whole compared that album as well. 
Also you should know that DT actually played "As I Am," "The Spirit Carries On," & "Pull Me Under" right after playing the whole Astonishing album. The band seemed a lot more engaged in that moment. I am sure people were tired of not hearing any of the old stuff. It's not like this album is "The Wall" or "Metropolis:Scenes From A Memory Part 2..." You get the point.

Anyway, Mike Mangini recently did an interview, he overall does not seemed please with things in this interview. You should take the time to watch part of it. He talks about he only is contributing 10% to Dream Theater and really he only got to write one part of one song and that was "Illumination Theory" and some other parts on the Self-Titled. Granted, "The Illumination Theory" is great song until the Orchestra part in the middle. In my humble opinion that just ruins the flow of the song. Anyway here is the link concerning Mangini: 
https://youtu.be/aqxlxt6Y9VU


> Interviewer: Asides from playing drums, what do you think is your biggest contribution to the band?
> 
> MM: Humor. I mean, to this stage, I really have been&#8230; not included in 2 of the 3 records. Because John, in &#8220;A Dramatic Turn of Events&#8221;, I was not included, and with &#8220;The Astonishing&#8221; I was not included. My contribution is &#8220;Illumination Theory&#8221; both in saying &#8220;What do we want to die for?&#8221; as a premise to the song and in contributing parts. And other things in DT13 too. But I&#8217;m still like&#8230; I&#8217;m like 10%, you know? So it&#8217;s getting there over time. I mean, that the biggest contribution for me is as a team player, you know what I mean? I understand as an athlete, in sports, the whole team has to buy in or it crumbles. And I don&#8217;t necessarily care where the plan came from. I don&#8217;t care who drew up the plan. I don&#8217;t care who&#8217;s gotta put the puck in the net. I honestly don&#8217;t, but people have to be on the same page. So when I say what I said, which I&#8217;ve been blocked out of it- that&#8217;s not the right word- but I have not been included. Included for a little bit, but I&#8217;ve been on the team and I&#8217;ve been giving 110% and that&#8217;s a big contribution. Humor is important too. So that&#8217;s what I&#8217;ve been giving. And I&#8217;ve been going with the flow and be what I can be. It is what it is.


UPDATE: 
So... It would appear the video was actually take down... I am sure if the band mates saw it they probably didn't appreciate Mangini's attitude. But granted, this man was guaranteed to be a part of the songwriting process for the band and I am disappointed as a fan they have not utilized Mangini in the way they should and ultimately could push the band forward in a great way.

As someone else said, I don't think The Astonishing would have happened if Mike Portnoy was in the band. Petrucci & Ruddess were the only ones to write the album. That album being in the league of Rock Operas it doesn't really stick out. Arjen Lucassen (Composer, Guitarist, Producer Writer) has a project called Ayreon and he by himself has written far more interesting stories and Rock Opera albums that feature an array of different singers (James Labrie, Mikael Akerfedlt, Jorn Lande, Tommy Karevik, Floor Jansen, Devin Townsend, Sir Russell Allen, Bruce Dickinson) and they are well done. Some people may not dig them... Alas, it's just to show what Dream Theater is doing is not even remotely new. Not to mention Jordan Ruddess was on the last Ayreon album as well. 

I would just love for DT to start writing amazing songs again and writing them out. Plus I would love for Mangini to finally get the chance to write. 
Still believe in the guys in Dream Theater to keep an amazing legacy but I guess we will find out...


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## thedonal (Dec 25, 2016)

That's a real shame if that is the case.

I really felt that ADTOE had its share of self indulgence-particularly from Jordan Rudess' contribution.

I know Prog in many forms leads to self indulgence, but even so..

The self titled was a more balanced effort and had some amazing moments- the intro to Behind The Veil being one of them. I thought that Mike Mangini might have had more of a part in it.

Maybe they are over compensating for Mike Portnoy's (clearly extremely strong) presence in the creative flow and getting ground back, but I'm not sure they're going in the right direction. A real shame.


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## Zalbu (Dec 25, 2016)

I don't think it's ever occurred to me how much Petrucci is running the ship behind Dream Theater before, but now I read that he came up with the story, wrote the lyrics and made most of the music for the Astonishing. And I mean, it's the most unique and refreshing album they've made in a long time but at the end of the day it's just another Dream Theater album but just a lot longer.

I think it's a bit of a shame that Petrucci still seems to be so invested in Dream Theater because it doesn't feel like they have a lot left to say as a band. I'd much prefer to see Petrucci do another solo record or do more stuff with Liquid Tension Experiment or something. He's easily one of the best guitarists of this generation and I'd almost prefer him to take the route of someone like Guthrie Govan, work on new projects, collaborate with other people, be a teacher, be a guest musican and things like that.


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## Webmaestro (Dec 25, 2016)

I'm glad this thread was created. I'm a huge DT fanboy, and I thought I was going crazy...


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 25, 2016)

Xiphos68 said:


> There's some good discussion in this thread concerning DT.
> 
> Anyway, Mike Mangini recently did an interview, he overall does not seemed please with things in this interview. [...] I am sure if the band mates saw it they probably didn't appreciate Mangini's attitude. But granted, this man was guaranteed to be a part of the songwriting process for the band and I am disappointed as a fan they have not utilized Mangini in the way they should and ultimately could push the band forward in a great way.
> 
> As someone else said, I don't think The Astonishing would have happened if Mike Portnoy was in the band. Petrucci & Ruddess were the only ones to write the album.



Nice, hadn't seen that interview. Mangini really doesn't mince words there...almost sounds unhappy ('[the situation] is what it is' <-- ?!). Who knows if we'll see a reunion with Portnoy, but if we do, my bet is that it'd be in the next few years. That's just weighing all the factors: time for contracts to expire, Mangini's continuing minimal contributions to the albums and apparent unhappiness, and the lack of musical input from other members of the band as well, which was 'supposed to improve' after Mike left. Just seems like there's a lot of challenges Dream Theater are facing now. On the other hand, Portnoy's interviews have made it pretty clear several of the members didn't want him there by the time he left...he keeps saying he's only in touch with one of them anymore and is rebuffed by the others (I'm 99.9% sure the friendly one is Petrucci, but I can't say for certain), and I'm pretty sure Labrie has really disliked him for quite some time. It's hard to say if the whole band could agree to let him back in; I kind of get the impression Mike's domineering nature was seen as a bit of a slave driver's mentality. Anyway, I won't ramble...gossip-mongering is worthless, but obviously there's a lot of complexity to the situation. 


Re: DT 'falling off': my take on it is that every fan has a different opinion about when it happened. A small minority say post-Images and Words (insane, but they're out there). Some say post-Scenes from a Memory. Most say either Six Degrees or Systematic Chaos. Now, after a couple of lackluster albums, it's becoming more popular to say either post-Portnoy or post-ADTOE. With that much variation in opinion, I find it very hard to say anything objective about the band declining. But personally I do feel the post-Portnoy albums have less character to them and less musical direction in general. Even with the Astonishing being more or less co-written by Petrucci and Rudess, I feel like the writing is skewed heavily toward Petrucci in terms of structure, with some space having been left for Rudess to fill in the gaps and collaborate. The other band members, not so much. And thus we're seeing Petrucci become more and more like Portnoy in his role in the band. Honestly I think he (and the band at large) could use Portnoy back as a songwriter and bandleader.

I still don't think that the multi-pronged approach to the album's promotion is a sign of the Astonishing's failure, however. Arguably the band IS struggling a bit creatively (at least in the sense of working as a team), but what they're doing with the Astonishing is a product of a changing industry as much as anything else.


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## The Mirror (Dec 26, 2016)

Sermo Lupi said:


> *Tour:* Well obviously. Not sure why you included this.



Because it was a tour in which the record was played in it's entirety and not really much more. If you are one of the lots and lots of guys that didn't like that record the tour was basically pointless. 

As someone else said it the ticket sails supposedly showed this.


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## Bucks (Dec 26, 2016)

MP is still friendly with JP and Rudess, it's been not secret in DT world that MP and Labrie have not got on with each other for a very long time now.

The truth is the tour has been a failure. The 2nd US leg especially, ticket sales have been very very low, and the choice of venues/cities has been ... weird. It not that the astonishing is a terrible album.. it's average, but the whole live experience that they have been pushing for just hasn't worked and people aren't interested.

It is 100% true that the upcoming images and words tour was supposed to be a 2nd European leg of the astonishing.

Interest in DT has been waning for a while now, this was happening when MP was still involved. They peaked around 2004 and are now back to the days where they were thoroughly a niche band. 

When I moved from the US to the UK in 2011 I saw DT at Wembley, it was below half capacity. Absolutely awful venue for them. It's embarrassing for the band, the booking people should know a band like this can't fill these venues.


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## thedonal (Dec 26, 2016)

Bucks said:


> MP is still friendly with JP and Rudess, it's been not secret in DT world that MP and Labrie have not got on with each other for a very long time now.
> 
> The truth is the tour has been a failure. The 2nd US leg especially, ticket sales have been very very low, and the choice of venues/cities has been ... weird. It not that the astonishing is a terrible album.. it's average, but the whole live experience that they have been pushing for just hasn't worked and people aren't interested.
> 
> ...



Sadly, London has few mid size venues that would suit. Even Wembley Arena is a big place to fill (and expensive to hire if you don't fill it). Ive seen it curtained off half way for a couple of shows- a Cure gig in the 90s (they filled Earls Court earlier in the year) and Prog Nation in 2010. Maybe it reduces costs as half the venue requires less staff and maintenance.


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## Xiphos68 (Dec 26, 2016)

Webmaestro said:


> I'm glad this thread was created. I'm a huge DT fanboy, and I thought I was going crazy...



This X's a Million. 

Don't get me wrong... There were some cool songs (two or three) on the Self-Titled but there was nothing glorious on it compared ADTOE with "Breaking All Illusions," "Lost Not Forgotten," "Bridges in the Sky," & "Outcry." Then again that's only four.  

Anyway, it is a shame that Mangini is not having his day in this band. Because the rest of the guys that tried out honestly would not have adjusted as well as Mangini has. Virgil just wants to do his thing (I respect that). Marco Minnemann has never even listened to a Dream Theater album before.  And the rest of the guys besides Peter just didn't flow as well as Mangini. Peter Wildoer (James Labrie Solo Band) was great however. 

Mangini is thoroughly dedicated to his craft (practicing, teaching), his musician ship and the fans. There's no telling what they could make if they decided to take some "risks" with Mangini. Which they really wouldn't because look at all these things they are trying to do now. Anyway, I hope things change. Mangini deserves the opportunity too. 

Sermo - Also in the interview they ask him about Lizzy Hale singing on the Dream Theater track and he just lets out saying basically 'The record company wanted to do that. She's popular, has a great voice and she's pretty too. You know?' Now I am paraphrasing until I can find the article again. But that man basically just let loose on a few things. I couldn't believe it. 

Concerning Mike Portnoy, I miss him dearly... However, I am glad he created The Winery Dogs. Because that is like my new favorite band in a long time. Regardless, of how anyone feels about the man he can write songs, great parts and has like the most amazing drum tones on any album. 

I think Dream Theater needs an outside producer and sit as a whole to write some amazing tunes. 
Not many bands who produce their own albums succeed very-well. Arjen Lucassen, Devin Townsend, Steven Wilson are among the very few who can achieve it and do it extremely well.


EDIT: MP is friends with JP? I thought it was only Ruddess? If that is the case. Can we have LTE back? Thanks.  

I second the notion for John Petrucci to make another solo album.


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## Xiphos68 (Dec 26, 2016)

Here you go guys: http://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/12/04/mike-mangini-october-31st-indianapolis-interview/


This is the interview with Mangini that I was telling you about. Give it a glance.


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## Zalbu (Dec 26, 2016)

Xiphos68 said:


> I second the notion for John Petrucci to make another solo album.


I doubt it's going to happen though, for the same reasons Mikael Åkerfeldt doesn't want to do a solo album. Petrucci can just put everything he wants into Dream Theater since he's still doing pretty much everything from doing the lyrics to the music to the production, even at the expense of other peoples creative input like Mangini.

I'd just want to see him do another solo record to see if he has any different musical influences or things like that he wants to put in his music or if what he's doing in DT really is 100% where his heart is and isn't interesting in other styles.


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## The Mirror (Dec 26, 2016)

Xiphos68 said:


> Here you go guys: http://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/12/04/mike-mangini-october-31st-indianapolis-interview/
> 
> 
> This is the interview with Mangini that I was telling you about. Give it a glance.





> Are we talking Mike Mangini solo album?
> 
> MM: Oh, absolutely! I&#8217;m learning, I&#8217;m doing this right now as a learning experience. How am I supposed to offer stuff to a band like Dream Theater, which I have, but it just&#8230; it&#8217;s not on their level, so you know, I&#8217;ll do my stuff that&#8217;s not the same as theirs and well, whatever. Whatever, whatever, whatever. Mainly I&#8217;m learning right now.



I have a feeling he will not stay with DT for a much longer time. That sentence basically screamed that he is not really content with his position in the band right now. Of course these are just the words he said written down, but it reads "very unsatisfied" on his part.


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## ThomasUV777 (Dec 26, 2016)

Completely off-topic, but every time I see Mangini, he reminds me of


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## TheTrooper (Dec 26, 2016)

I'm not sure why some guys gets so all angry about their marketing strategy with The Astonishing.

I knew right after it was released that a video game, a Broadway Show and a possible Movie were in the works; they said all that in an interview 

The music.
The Astonishing it's not a bad album. 
The sounds, the production, the orchestration are all great; the story is very subjective, as it's the music.
95% of Rock guys don't listen to electronic music, but that doesn't mean it's all crap (as With Rock, Pop or every other genre).
Hell, some Rock guys are afraid to listen to Def Leppard because it's "Glam"
c'mon..

This album is far more less heavy than previous ones, as ToT was ....ing heavy as .....

It's a concept, yes, but not the way like SFAM was.
You can pick any one song of SFAM and listen to it without realizing it's all part of a story, while on the Astonishing the stroy is much more strict and "close".
The concept in SFAM is more "free" and "abstract" in a sense (even though the story it's well outlined) because it all happens thru series of dreams.

I never really hate or don't like at all any of DT's albums.
Some I like a lot, some less.
I love FII and I think is one of their best, but I don't like ToT nearly as much.


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## Bucks (Dec 26, 2016)

TheTrooper said:


> I love FII and I think is one of their best, but I don't like ToT nearly as much.



I love FII so much. The drums sound on the album is absolute perfection. 

However, the original demos of FII are better in my opinion as it contains raise the knife, where are you now and you not me is you or me.


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## Sermo Lupi (Dec 26, 2016)

Xiphos68 said:


> Here you go guys: http://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/12/04/mike-mangini-october-31st-indianapolis-interview/
> 
> 
> This is the interview with Mangini that I was telling you about. Give it a glance.



Yeah, as others have said, what a crazy interview. Sounds like Mangini has already _left_ the band based on how he's answering questions. 

I'd chalk it up to just being a bad day if it weren't for the sort of things he were answering. Worth watching, so don't trust my paraphrase, but some things that stuck out: 

- Calls time with DT a 'chapter in his life' (phrasing it in a way that almost sounds like it's a chapter that's now been written. Emphasizes sacrifices made, etc.). 

- The bit that was quoted above, talking about only contributing humour to the band, not being included in writing, etc. 

- Misses teaching as a path to growth. The implication being that he feels creatively stifled to some extent (I don't feel it's reaching to say that given his answers to the other questions). Also says that he likes touring insofar as he knows he won't be able to do it forever and thus wants to do it while he still can, but that he is again making great sacrifices by being on the road, particularly sacrifices to his family life. 

- Describes himself as an engine part that's just been inserted into an existing machine. 

- When asked how the tour is going: Big pause. 'It's just different'. Seems to think the whole 'theatre' part of the tour is a bit over the top (even Mangini isn't buying the cheese )

- Discusses how he's writing a lot of music and is composing as well. Leads into the quote someone already transcribed above about him and DT not being 'on the same level' (which I don't think he meant to sound arrogant; 'not on the same level' as in the sort of music that is not 'Dream Theater'. Creative differences more than anything, I think). 

Overall, it just sounds like he's very burnt out. It'd be great to see Portnoy back in DT, but either way, I don't think Mangini is intending to stay on for too much longer.


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## jvms (Dec 26, 2016)

God, I miss Portnoy... After these past few albums, it's quite clear he was the mastermind behind DT. Or at least the one preventing Petrucci and Rudess from ....ing .... up. You can hear it in the production and mixing from BCSL to ADToE. Everything used to be thick and punchy and now they have thin drums and rhythm guitars drowning in chorus. Musicallywise, everything went downhill too in my opinion. And it's not Mangini's fault at all, but it's the lack of Portnoy's presence as a producer that's bringing the band down.


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## Xiphos68 (Dec 27, 2016)

The thing is though, "The Astonishing" is not worth putting all those efforts into. It's not that good of an album. Metropolis Part 2: Scenes From A Memory is what they should have done all those avenues with and that story was way shorter, less characters and much more captivating. Not to mention understandable as well. 

I'd hate to see Mangini leave due to I think he could make some amazing tunes with DT that would be amazing and plus I don't know what other band he could join actually be utilized with a drummer of his skill? It'd be tight to see him in Extreme again though.  

Yeah. The tour I am sure is annoying after a while. I mean could you imagine having to play that every night and not even being that into it? Especially, if you had no part of the creativity of it as well. 

However, I'd love to have Portnoy back. But it man it would suck to lose The Winery Dogs. Because that's one of the greatest things to happen to Rock N' Roll in a while. 
As jvms says, I agree as well. The Production has definitely suffered in some ways. I have not enjoyed Petrucci's tones on Self-Titled. ADTOE sounded fairly good and "The Astonishing" has some great tonal moments but it's not as inspiring as "Systematic Chaos" or BC&SL (love that tone). However, I will say after seeing him recently, he has the greatest live tone I've ever heard.


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## LavaScript (Dec 27, 2016)

Xiphos68 said:


> As jvms says, I agree as well. The Production has definitely suffered in some ways. I have not enjoyed Petrucci's tones on Self-Titled. ADTOE sounded fairly good and "The Astonishing" has some great tonal moments but it's not as inspiring as "Systematic Chaos" or BC&SL (love that tone). However, I will say after seeing him recently, he has the greatest live tone I've ever heard.


Ah the good ol crunch lab and liquifire days, loved the guitar tones on SC and BC&SL, just the right amount of that modern edge to it. 

My problem with The Astonishing guitar tone is how static is sounded, and it didn't help that the album was a little too long (imo) as well. With Dream Theater and their lengthy songs, it is usually the guitar and keyboard that, for me, save those more dragged out sections of their music and keep me interested.
Sadly that is was really lacked on The Astonishing, while the songs were shorter they really embraced those dragged out parts in DT music and nothing was there to keep me latched on.
Don't get me wrong, the album isn't horrible but I feel the length could have definitely been reduced and the overall sound of this album (besides the keyboards which were fine) could have been worked on more. 
If they were going to edge away from their normal more technical sound on this album, I think more emphasis on the sound itself could have saved it for me.


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## Xiphos68 (Dec 27, 2016)

LavaScript said:


> Ah the good ol crunch lab and liquifire days, loved the guitar tones on SC and BC&SL, just the right amount of that modern edge to it.
> 
> My problem with The Astonishing guitar tone is how static is sounded, and it didn't help that the album was a little too long (imo) as well. With Dream Theater and their lengthy songs, it is usually the guitar and keyboard that, for me, save those more dragged out sections of their music and keep me interested.
> Sadly that is was really lacked on The Astonishing, while the songs were shorter they really embraced those dragged out parts in DT music and nothing was there to keep me latched on.
> ...



Man... That tone is so much truth. 

Concerning "The Astonishing," for me it was the fact that the songs all the way through were not "songs." They were pieces that made up the album. Now there are some "songs" on the albums, however, I was expecting Dream Theater to take that route completely. I am not necessarily interested in an album that is built of just pieces personally. At least, from them. 

I will say though, the acoustic guitar parts sounded amazing.


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## Herrick (Dec 27, 2016)

Ralyks said:


> I would consider myself a DT fanboy, they're my favorite band second to only Fates Warning... and I still haven't listened to The Astonishing all the way through, and agree this is overkill. Really didn't keep my attention. I have no problem with the post-Portnoy material for the most part, but for a concept album, Scenes from a Memory this ain't.



I'm a borderline fanboy. I love Dream Theater but I'm critical of LaBrie's live vocal ability & I don't really give a .... about Portnoy no longer being in the band. 

I listened to The Astonishing twice and I just couldn't get into it. To be fair, it's probably one of those albums that really needs to be fully absorbed before making a real decision about how good or bad it is, but it couldn't hold my attention throughout the two listens I gave it. Too many slow moments. 

Someone described The Astonishing as Disney Metal and I have to agree with that description. I don't care how lame the story is because I'm not one to really pay attention to lyrics. Musically, the album doesn't deliver. Ah well.


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## fps (Dec 27, 2016)

They just write. They have these insane schedules to keep. They have no real room for reflection, honing, crafting, listening, they just DO these days. And when you've done everything they have, there's no way that's going to sound fresh. Portnoy was right, they needed a break. I can still see how he's a hugely divisive figure though, and the music wasn't going in the right direction when he was still in the band.


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## LavaScript (Dec 28, 2016)

fps said:


> They just write. They have these insane schedules to keep. They have no real room for reflection, honing, crafting, listening, they just DO these days. And when you've done everything they have, there's no way that's going to sound fresh. Portnoy was right, they needed a break. I can still see how he's a hugely divisive figure though, and the music wasn't going in the right direction when he was still in the band.



I think you nailed it on the head man, great points.


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## beneharris (Jan 2, 2017)

jvms said:


> God, I miss Portnoy... After these past few albums, it's quite clear he was the mastermind behind DT. Or at least the one preventing Petrucci and Rudess from ....ing .... up. You can hear it in the production and mixing from BCSL to ADToE. Everything used to be thick and punchy and now they have thin drums and rhythm guitars drowning in chorus. Musicallywise, everything went downhill too in my opinion. And it's not Mangini's fault at all, but it's the lack of Portnoy's presence as a producer that's bringing the band down.



I remember when everybody was saying Portnoy was the problem, what with the metal growls in Systematic Chaos and such. I think its easy to be critical of a band who has been going straight for a really long time, and lets be honest, most of their catalog is really good. Better than most other bands out there. The Astonishing did kinda suck as much as it pains me to admit it, though.


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## The Mirror (Jan 3, 2017)

beneharris said:


> I remember when everybody was saying Portnoy was the problem, what with the metal growls in Systematic Chaos and such.



To be fair. Those growls were downright awful. As said before. With a hiatus Portnoy could have played his full blown metal sideprojects and everyone could gather ideas for a new DT record. 

And even though I can't know for certain, of course, I don't think money would have been a problem in the years of a hiatus. 

I mean these guys are all known worldwide to be part of the best players on their respective instrument in the modern rock/metal genre. How could these guys not find something to do? Everyone has got sideprojects or solo careers that could be focused on.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 10, 2017)

Saw DT share this on Facebook.


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## Glosni (Jan 10, 2017)

I'm sorry, but this looks awful.

God, I hate what DT has become. I can't help but think that Portnoy was right, a 2-3ish year break to recharge their batteries, instead of just churning yet another handful of overly long, oh-so-epic Epics, was just what this band needed.
The TA cheesefest really is a low point for DT. I would rather listen to Falling Into Infinity, and that is saying something.


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## TedEH (Jan 10, 2017)

Thaaaaaaaats looks terrible. Even the narrator in the trailer doesn't sound impressed. "Oh, it's epic? Sure, if you say so." Every time I hear the word "epic" in that trailer, or in relation to the last album or two, I kinda cringe a little. Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so.

I'm both a music guy and a game-dev guy- and and such a love the idea of combining the two in a meaningful way- so this is just painful to see. I feel like the board game could have been something interesting in it's own right, and I don't hate the album, but those two ideas have nothing to do with eachother. It's just slapping a brand on top of another product.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 10, 2017)

Glosni said:


> The TA cheesefest really is a low point for DT. I would rather listen to Falling Into Infinity, and that is saying something.



No it's not, Falling into Infinity is an amazing album--one of DT's best! Sorry, mate, but you're off your rocker  

Agreed on the astonishing, however. There's been enough bashing of the album in this thread already, so I won't retread the same familiar tracks. However, it's the mediocrity of the marketing/media materials that really astonishes...I mean, DT probably doesn't have a huge production budget to work with, but lesser bands have done a lot better. A book by a no-name author, this shovelware game, the visual show they played on the live tour, which looked like a bad fan-made photoshop slideshow. Just awful, all of it.


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## wankerness (Jan 10, 2017)

All the extra stuff around this album is stupid. I find almost all "concept albums" to be cringeworthy (there are some exceptions, like POS's Perfect Element and Remedy Lane, or ones where I can almost entirely ignore the silly story like Opeth's MAYH or SL). I hurt inside every time I failed to ignore the lyrics on Scenes from a Memory and the second disc of SDOIT. Remember those terrible video clips "acting" out the story on the SFAM Live in NY DVD??

This album is easily their best album since Train of Thought. I think it has a lot of catchy and memorable melodies. Not one single album between ToT and this made me want to listen to it more than twice.


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## bostjan (Jan 10, 2017)

I was a pretty bog Dream Theater fanboy. Saw them live at least a dozen times. Bought their albums, shirts, fan club crap, etc.

To me, DT was supposed to be JP, KM, and MP supplying the creative juices. Myung can play bass like a monster, but, honestly, I don't care for his songwriting near as much as the others. LaBrie had that really flashy vocal range, and I have a lot of respect for him as a musician, but I don't really think he's quite on the level of the other three. Three albums in, Moore left, and Derek was hired as a replacement. ACOS was great, FiI was, for me, a little bit of a new direction for them, and I did not find it at all annoying, but I missed Kevin's subtler sensibilities. Derek's parts were a lot of flash and bang, and the entire thing, to me, seemed to be reaching for more commercialism. When Jordan got on board, I was apprehensively excited about how that would turn out, and, personally, I loved MP2:SfaM. You can knock the weird sound bytes and voice acting, but, really, at the time, it was some of the most tasteful use of that sort of thing DT had done. Consider Images and Words, in which some of the sound bytes are difficult to make out and seem smashed together, or Awake, one of their most acclaimed albums, with tons of samples from movies and stuff that no one knew, and seemed only vaguely relevant to some of the songs.

Anyway, they simply have not grabbed me with their songs since Portnoy left. I still liked what they were doing, but, if I grab an album to listen to, it's going to be ToT, SfaM, or one of their older ones.

Going back and listening to "Under a Glass Moon," it's every bit of what I had hoped DT would continue doing: odd-time stuff that feels like it belongs, wicked technical drumming, a super-memorable guitar solo, some sweet melodies, a little bit of chaos, and, yes, some vocal lines that I cannot, to this day, understand the lyrics, because Labrie is singing too high.

I felt like Awake captured that feeling, even though it was notably a much darker album.

I know these bands get bored a little after 20+ years together. But, it pains me to say that DT has become, to me, what I heard non-DT fans describe about their older work. Tons of cool stuff is going on, but in the middle of it all, it just doesn't grab onto you as a lump sum.


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## Herrick (Jan 10, 2017)

Glosni said:


> I'm sorry, but this looks awful.
> 
> God, I hate what DT has become. I can't help but think that Portnoy was right, a 2-3ish year break to recharge their batteries, instead of just churning yet another handful of overly long, oh-so-epic Epics, was just what this band needed.



I like the first two albums without Portnoy but I gotta agree with you. It would've been a good idea to at least take a year off.


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## Webmaestro (Jan 10, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Saw DT share this on Facebook.




WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK!?


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## CapnForsaggio (Jan 10, 2017)

Webmaestro said:


> WHAT THE ACTUAL F*CK!?



What? You don't want to play some dream theatre chess?

JP: 'I move my guitar player to your vocalist 5.'
Portnoy: 'I respond by moving my Artist(?) to your mom's house.'
JP: 'You can't do that! You have been astonished.'
Portnoy: 'You know what, I have, I quit this band.'


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 10, 2017)

^that is so dumb.it's even dumber than iron maiden's game that came out for mobile.


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## wankerness (Jan 11, 2017)

It is sad that the best videogame based on a band may be Kiss's psycho circus FPS.


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## The Mirror (Jan 11, 2017)

wankerness said:


> It is sad that the best videogame based on a band may be Kiss's psycho circus FPS.



How's that sad? Psycho Circus was a pure end 90s FPS gorefess with killer clowns and exploding limbs all over.

I loved it


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## wankerness (Jan 11, 2017)

The Mirror said:


> How's that sad? Psycho Circus was a pure end 90s FPS gorefess with killer clowns and exploding limbs all over.
> 
> I loved it



Oh, it was definitely amusing, it was just such a cheap quake mod of a game and there have been so many years for someone else to do something better!


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## bostjan (Jan 11, 2017)

Aerosmith had a couple of cool games back in the 90's: There was one where the controller was a big guitar pick with a cable attached to it. The accelerometer used to detect "air guitar strums" was arguably the precursor to the Nintendo Wii.


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## Webmaestro (Jan 11, 2017)

Xiphos68 said:


> Here you go guys: http://dreamtheater.club/blog/2016/12/04/mike-mangini-october-31st-indianapolis-interview/
> 
> This is the interview with Mangini that I was telling you about. Give it a glance.



Whew, that was rough to watch.

I agree with the opinion that Mike sort of sounds like he has one foot out the door. Honestly, I'm not surprised, and when he was first announced as their new drummer I told my girlfriend that it "just didn't seem like Mike's kind of gig." Despite how well the audition went, and his seeming chemistry with the other band members, I always questioned whether he'd be happy, long-term, in Dream Theater.

Same opinion of Marco Minnemann: he also nailed the DT audition, but if he'd gotten the gig, I don't think he would've stuck around either. Both guys seem happier with the challenge and variety of being a hired-gun instead.

There's a part of me that half-hopes this has all been staged. In other words, imagine that DT and Portnoy staged all of this to allow Portnoy a few years off. Secretly, they're all still on good terms. It's all under the guise that they've "split forever"... but the real (and secret) plan all along has been for Mike to eventually come back.

A guy can hope, right?


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## TedEH (Jan 11, 2017)

I'm starting to see weird parallels between DT and Metallica - in the sense that they're less about the band and music, and now more of a brand and business than anything else. They both had super publicized auditions for an extra member, and documentaries and all that nonsense, which built all this hype around how they've got this new core team of theoretically super talented people, but then produced a bunch of their worst-received material ever, along with a bunch of other questionable sounds-business-driven-to-me kinds of decisions.


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## Zalbu (Jan 11, 2017)

TedEH said:


> I'm starting to see weird parallels between DT and Metallica - in the sense that they're less about the band and music, and now more of a brand and business than anything else. They both had super publicized auditions for an extra member, and documentaries and all that nonsense, which built all this hype around how they've got this new core team of theoretically super talented people, but then produced a bunch of their worst-received material ever, along with a bunch of other questionable sounds-business-driven-to-me kinds of decisions.


I'm wondering if it's really Petrucci who's pushing all of this stuff with running Dream Theater as a business or if it's a band wide effort? Petrucci is almost coming across as a fart sniffer at this point since he's running pretty much everything, music wise, in Dream Theater and the output has been decent to average at best yet they're treating it as the new Dark Side of the Moon. It'd be a shame to see one of the greatest technical guitarists ever turn into another Kirk Hammett, only with the difference that Petrucci isn't showing any signs of running out of music to write any time soon.

Petrucci would be set for life if he became a hired gun and just put out some solo albums once in a while but it seems like he's more ambitious about Dream Theater now than ever before.


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## Herrick (Jan 11, 2017)

Zalbu said:


> Petrucci is almost coming across as a fart sniffer at this point since he's running pretty much everything, music wise, in Dream Theater and the output has been decent to average at best...




Fart sniffer? Ha ha that actually made me laugh out loud but I'm not sure what you mean by that.


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## wankerness (Jan 11, 2017)

Zalbu said:


> I'm wondering if it's really Petrucci who's pushing all of this stuff with running Dream Theater as a business or if it's a band wide effort? Petrucci is almost coming across as a fart sniffer at this point since he's running pretty much everything, music wise, in Dream Theater and the output has been decent to average at best yet they're treating it as the new Dark Side of the Moon. It'd be a shame to see one of the greatest technical guitarists ever turn into another Kirk Hammett, only with the difference that Petrucci isn't showing any signs of running out of music to write any time soon.
> 
> Petrucci would be set for life if he became a hired gun and just put out some solo albums once in a while but it seems like he's more ambitious about Dream Theater now than ever before.



Where does Hammett come into this? I'm not aware of Hammett running/writing anything in that band or even being a dick.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 11, 2017)

Yeah, if anything, Kirk's the polar opposite of Trucci. 

Isn't the leader, doesn't even write the music, and is a very sloppy player.


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## Zalbu (Jan 11, 2017)

Herrick said:


> Fart sniffer? Ha ha that actually made me laugh out loud but I'm not sure what you mean by that.


Fart sniffer, as in being so pretentious that you enjoy the smell of your own farts. It seems like Petrucci thinks The Astonishing is Gods gift to mankind sometimes. 



wankerness said:


> Where does Hammett come into this? I'm not aware of Hammett running/writing anything in that band or even being a dick.


Nothing, really. Probably a bad example, I just took him as the first name of a player that has fallen off that I could think of. I don't want to see Petrucci go down the same path he did, being a guitar god back in the day to being too caught up in band related crap and focusing on the franchise of himself and the band over the actual playing. Not that it's going to happen since I doubt Kirk even plays guitar outside of live shows anymore while Petrucci is churning out material, but still.

Petrucci, Myung and Rudess are some of the most respected and valuable players in the metal scene, they would have people lining up at their doorstep if they started doing independent stuff. I can't imagine that it's worth it to try this hard for Dream Theater to stay in the green when they're past their prime, their skills are just going to waste, but Petrucci seems to think that it is


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## Rachmaninoff (Jan 11, 2017)

Zalbu said:


> Fart sniffer, as in being so pretentious that you enjoy the smell of your own farts. It seems like Petrucci thinks The Astonishing is Gods gift to mankind sometimes.



I have this impression too. I guess I'm one of those snob fans who only listen to material up to Octavarium, but hey, with that "Yes Man" on the drums, the things just got worse. They found a formula that they're repeating all over, DT just sucks now.


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## TheTrooper (Jan 11, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> ^that is so dumb.it's even dumber than iron maiden's game that came out for mobile.




What?
Mate, Legacy is a great mobile game, and I don't like playing on the phone.
It's really well made (yeah yeah, if you good character you have to pay) and the music underneath it's awesome.


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## TheTrooper (Jan 11, 2017)

Bucks said:


> I love FII so much. The drums sound on the album is absolute perfection.
> 
> However, the original demos of FII are better in my opinion as it contains raise the knife, where are you now and you not me is you or me.



The production is absolutley stellar, one of the best (if not the best) from Shirley.


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## Rachmaninoff (Jan 12, 2017)

TheTrooper said:


> The production is absolutley stellar, one of the best (if not the best) from Shirley.



Indeed... the mix in _Falling into Infinity_ is pure sugar to my ears, it has a lot of "air", you can hear every note in every instrument... very different from overcompressed mixes of nowadays. Guess what? I'm gonna listen to that album again right now.


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## DLG (Jan 12, 2017)

yep, outside of a few stinkers (You not Me, Anna Lee), FII is an amazing album.


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## bostjan (Jan 12, 2017)

It's funny to see how the band/fan dynamic plays out every time. I was one of the guys who was a fan so long ago. I saw DT play in a parking garage with a local Detroit band not much more well-known than we were at the time (Tiles) opening up for them. Then I saw them play in churches, larger bar-like venues, and, finally, huge stadiums. Seeing many of the same people at the stadium shows that I remember seeing in the small crowd at the parking garage. When it was happening, everybody was so proud of them moving up and finally getting some recognition. Then the Portnoy thing happened and it seems that people are crapping all over them.

But think about Petrucci's arc in this. He always had cool gear, but, it has been since M2:SfaM that he's really had any signature gear that people could actually just go out and buy at a store. But, it seems that once they got the taste for expanded merch, they keep going deeper and deeper, to the point now, where it's like that scene from Spaceballs:

You can buy Dream Theater, the album; Dream Theater, the DVD; Dream Theater, the video game; Dream Theater, the guitar and bass; Dream Theater, the lunchbox; Dream Theater, the action figure playset; etc.

From what I've seen across the internet, fans are getting burnt out on this level of marketing, particularly as the same fans are not connecting with the newer song material as well.


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## TedEH (Jan 12, 2017)

bostjan said:


> From what I've seen across the internet, fans are getting burnt out on this level of marketing, particularly as the same fans are not connecting with the newer song material as well.



I think this kind of marketing just isn't a great fit for this kind of prog/metal/niche audience. I know DT is big for their genre, but the genre as a whole is arguably still kinda niche. Metallica, Megadeth, Slayer, etc., can get away with slapping their name on everything because it sort of fits the fan experience. A big part of being a Slayer fan is the whole running around shouting "YEAH SLAAAAAAAAAAAAYEEEEEEEER" and drawing the logos on stuff, and being obnoxious, and putting the logo in places it doesn't belong to "make a statement", etc. etc., but a prog fanbase isn't about those things. You don't buy all the licensed stuff so you can pretend to be a rockstar for a few minutes like you would with Metallica stuff- I'm pretty sure lots of explorer-shaped guitars are sold because of how cool Metallica made them look.

But people don't listen to DT for the same reasons usually. If you center the image of the band on "this is quality music by quality guys", then your marketing/merch had better also be quality stuff. I'm all for slapping JPs name on a Mark amp 'cause it's a good product being backed by someone who I trust is actually using one, and with good results. The JP2C was well received, and that makes sense to me. But if instead of the JP2C, we got the Line6 JP-Spider that sounded nothing like DT and broke down super easily, we'd be lumping it in with all the terrible business-y feeling decisions they've been making.


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## bostjan (Jan 12, 2017)

TedEH said:


> Stuff/Slayer/Merch



That's an excellent discussion.

A JP signature guitar costs 10x or more what a Slash Signature Les Paul licensed by Epiphone costs. Tons of people know who Slash is. Not many non-musicians know who Petrucci is.

That's why, early on, the most successful DT merch were things like the tab books, JP: Rock Discipline VHS, and the Mike Portnoy Drum Video.

DT, I think, is always trying to branch out, and I appreciate their motivation behind doing so, but I don't see their fans ever being the demographic who vandalizes bathroom stalls and plays with action figures, like the fans of Kiss or One Direction, or whatever.

The reality of it is, though, that tab books aren't much of a thing any more, because you can download the wrong tabs off the internet for free. The method videos are probably all pirated somewhere on the internet, and it's getting hard to survive off of microtransactions you get from people streaming your new albums and live concert videos on Spotify. If their fans keep getting older, they might even see a slump in concert returns. So there are fewer viable ways to make money in a prog band.

DT really came about from the cusp of the hair metal bands in the late 1980's, which was a commercially successful genre at the time, but rather than take the good-times approach, they always took themselves seriously (at least as DT, I think the Majesty Demos don't count). They sway a little bit with trends in music, but they've consistently not been commercially "big."

If there is a takeaway from past behaviours, though, it's that DT usually fails the effort itself to grow their commercialization, but yet always comes back a little bit stronger than before in the end.

Personally, though, I fear that they might have outgrown that cycle.


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## Demiurge (Jan 12, 2017)

bostjan said:


> where it's like that scene from Spaceballs:
> 
> You can buy Dream Theater, the album; Dream Theater, the DVD; Dream Theater, the video game; Dream Theater, the guitar and bass; Dream Theater, the lunchbox; Dream Theater, the action figure playset; etc.



"Scenes From a Memory 3: The Search for More Money"


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## Ralyks (Jan 17, 2017)

bostjan said:


> But, it seems that once they got the taste for expanded merch, they keep going deeper and deeper, to the point now, where it's like that scene from Spaceballs:
> 
> You can buy Dream Theater, the album; Dream Theater, the DVD; Dream Theater, the video game; Dream Theater, the guitar and bass; Dream Theater, the lunchbox; Dream Theater, the action figure playset; etc.



Dream Theater: The FLAAAMMEEE THROWERRRR!!!! The kids love that one...


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## bostjan (Jan 17, 2017)

Ralyks said:


> Dream Theater: The FLAAAMMEEE THROWERRRR!!!! The kids love that one...





Instant Dream Theater Concert Video- "When Will Then Be Now?!" (Forget When Day and Dream Unite)


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## The Mirror (Jan 22, 2017)

Okay. ***k it. I'm out...







It's a god damn Nomac Majesty...


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 22, 2017)

The Mirror said:


> Okay. ***k it. I'm out...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Truly awful!


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## Science_Penguin (Jan 22, 2017)

So, on the outside looking in, I gotta wonder:

Is there REALLY something THAT wrong with The Astonishing and all this crap surrounding it that I just don't get? Granted I haven't heard it all the way through, but what I've heard still sounds like a DT album... and I really don't care that much about the tie-in products.

Same questions I find myself asking whenever Muse fans react to any little thing that band does, really...

Am I just musically retarded? Is that my problem? Do I need to be more critical of my favourite bands?


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 22, 2017)

Science_Penguin said:


> So, on the outside looking in, I gotta wonder:
> 
> Is there REALLY something THAT wrong with The Astonishing and all this crap surrounding it that I just don't get? Granted I haven't heard it all the way through, but what I've heard still sounds like a DT album... and I really don't care that much about the tie-in products.
> 
> ...



Nope, and if you like the album, more power to you. For what it's worth, if the Astonishing was Scenes from a Memory (i.e. a universally lauded album or a staple of the band's career), and the so-called 'tie-in' products were substantially higher quality, I don't think anyone would be complaining. It's just a matter of the album being widely criticised and the promotion feeling rather cheap...it's a recipe for a landslide of criticism, really, whether it's deserved or not. So if you happen to like the album and the often cheesy promo stuff, I don't see why you wouldn't LOVE what DT is doing with the Astonishing. After all, one thing you can't criticize the band for is providing ample products for the fans who actually want them. 

As for the NOMAC Majesty, I kind of like it . I don't like the Majesty in general, so there's only so far my admiration can go, but I think this was a relatively well-executed homage to the album (although I wouldn't call it a tie-in product by a long shot). What it reminds me of is the old Ibanez H.R. Giger guitars--the $5000+ ones that looked like they were made of metal--and that's definitely a good thing. 

But I don't know, this is a very high end guitar produced in a very small run for collectors/fans looking to splurge. I don't get the hate for it, really, aside from it not being to one's own personal taste.


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## wankerness (Jan 23, 2017)

When I first looked at that guitar, I thought it was some Star Wars die-hard's attempt to make a guitar that looked like Darth Vader. I was scrolling up, and expected to see his mask on the headstock, but instead the picture cut off, and then I read what it was. Ah well.

Didn't The Astonishing mostly get good reviews when it came out? It seems like in this thread I'm the only defender! And I'm way less of a fanboy than many on this forum (ex, I can't even stand Octavarium).


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## DLG (Jan 23, 2017)

lol @ the ugly steampunk LARPer guitar


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## Science_Penguin (Jan 23, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Nope, and if you like the album, more power to you. For what it's worth, if the Astonishing was Scenes from a Memory (i.e. a universally lauded album or a staple of the band's career), and the so-called 'tie-in' products were substantially higher quality, I don't think anyone would be complaining. It's just a matter of the album being widely criticised and the promotion feeling rather cheap...it's a recipe for a landslide of criticism, really, whether it's deserved or not. So if you happen to like the album and the often cheesy promo stuff, I don't see why you wouldn't LOVE what DT is doing with the Astonishing. After all, one thing you can't criticize the band for is providing ample products for the fans who actually want them.



I dunno, it's just weird to me. I hear an album, I feel like "Eh, that was alright." The band releases some products and I'm like "Yeah, okay, they can do that. I probably won't buy it, but whatever, that's cool." 
But then I hear the fan reactions and this air of "How the mighty have fallen..." going on, and I'm just left cocking an eyebrow.



> As for the NOMAC Majesty, I kind of like it . I don't like the Majesty in general, so there's only so far my admiration can go, but I think this was a relatively well-executed homage to the album (although I wouldn't call it a tie-in product by a long shot). What it reminds me of is the old Ibanez H.R. Giger guitars--the $5000+ ones that looked like they were made of metal--and that's definitely a good thing.
> 
> But I don't know, this is a very high end guitar produced in a very small run for collectors/fans looking to splurge. I don't get the hate for it, really, aside from it not being to one's own personal taste.



I've probably got a positive bias towards this one, not because it's Dream Theater, but because I love futuristic cyberpunky s..t. The Majesty alone has the kind of sleek aesthetic I absolutely love, and to me, the NOMAC is just a natural progression from that.

ALSO... probably doesn't help that I'm a fan of a lot of Japanese ESP signature artists. Anyone here ragging on the Majesty, I'd love to know what you think of Mana's guitar.


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## scrub (Jan 23, 2017)

wankerness said:


> When I first looked at that guitar, I thought it was some Star Wars die-hard's attempt to make a guitar that looked like Darth Vader. I was scrolling up, and expected to see his mask on the headstock, but instead the picture cut off, and then I read what it was. Ah well.
> 
> Didn't The Astonishing mostly get good reviews when it came out? It seems like in this thread I'm the only defender! And I'm way less of a fanboy than many on this forum (ex, I can't even stand Octavarium).



I'll defend it with you. I loved it. It took me a while, but eventually it all came together and I really thought it was great. And the live performance I saw was a great experience (and sold out, ahem ahem) But I did find myself wanting them to play some of their older material. so I understand why the 2nd leg tours didn't do as well.


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## bostjan (Jan 23, 2017)

I don't care for the majesty myself, and this new one looks a bit doily for my tastes. If I saw a band playing these, though, I would have to get a closer look, since they are "unique."


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## RevDrucifer (Jan 23, 2017)

I hated the album but I dig the way that Majesty looks!

I don't really see this as part of promo for the album, either. It's just a one-off, limited model for the line. Petrucci makes no bones about it's cost or availability and straight up said, "This is for the hard core collectors/fans." 

I'm surprised you don't see more limited models popping up. Ibanez has certainly taken advantage of this with the anniversary models.


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## Sermo Lupi (Jan 24, 2017)

Science_Penguin said:


> I dunno, it's just weird to me. I hear an album, I feel like "Eh, that was alright." The band releases some products and I'm like "Yeah, okay, they can do that. I probably won't buy it, but whatever, that's cool."
> But then I hear the fan reactions and this air of "How the mighty have fallen..." going on, and I'm just left cocking an eyebrow.



I've posted too much in this thread already, but in an earlier comment I said that those 'how the mighty have fallen' comments are kind of nonsense anyway. Mostly because there's no consensus on when exactly the band fell off, and the label should bear the bulk of this criticism about how the album was promoted via tie-in products, not Dream Theater. 

So I'm with you there. And speaking just for myself, I don't _hate_ the album, I've just enjoyed DT a lot less after Portnoy left. And once you get enough people in a group saying that on the Internet, it'll descend into hyperbole.  But for myself, and apparently a handful of other users on this board, The Astonishing is sort of the trough in the general arch of DT's career. I say trough because I'm hoping they'll climb back out of it. 

I saw Meshuggah recently, and it reaffirmed the initial love I had for The Violent Sleep of Reason. There's a band late in their careers, still putting out some of their best work they've ever done. Apples to oranges and all that, but it was a reminder to me not to go too soft on Dream Theater just because I consider them to be an amazing band that's done amazing work previously. They're perhaps my favorite band overall, but if I'm being honest here, would I ever put on the Astonishing over _any_ other album of theirs? No way. So whilst I don't think that this deserves hyperbolic statements of 'terrible this, awful that', the opposite is kind of also true, namely that DT gets cut a lot of slack because of their incredible history in producing quality music that we've all loved for years or decades. 

I suppose what it comes down to is the fact that Petrucci took a huge gamble on this in terms of public perception, even if I know that he wasn't really 'gambling' at all because he was just expressing himself as an artist. However, and this is just my own opinion, I think The Astonishing was kind of the breaking point for some fans because of the semi-cheesy music, the definitely-cheesy concept of the album, and then the low quality paraphernalia on top of all of that. I mean, one of the first teasers we got was a message from 'Lord Nefaryus' with some amateurish character illustrations to accompany it. Like Mike Portnoy's kid got a hold of photoshop and was having a laugh for the sake of his pops! Enough said, right? 

What I'm saying is, if it weren't hard enough for DT to find their way with their new music these days on account of them having a back catalogue that has several of the greatest prog metal albums of all time, they certainly didn't do themselves any favours in choosing the concept of this album and in executing the non-musical aspects of it in the way that they did. There were just SO MANY points at which fans--even fans of the Astonishing--could go, 'hold on now, I was with you up until X'. X being anything from cheesy liner notes to a video game that looks like it'd give your phone cancer. 

So is the criticism valid? I don't know. I'm really not surprised by it, though.


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## Herrick (Jan 25, 2017)

Science_Penguin said:


> So, on the outside looking in, I gotta wonder:
> 
> Is there REALLY something THAT wrong with The Astonishing and all this crap surrounding it that I just don't get? Granted I haven't heard it all the way through, but what I've heard still sounds like a DT album... and I really don't care that much about the tie-in products.
> 
> ...



I don't know. I don't even want to say I don't like it because I only listened to it twice and wasn't able to really pay attention to it. This is almost certainly one of those albums that needs to be absorbed but I've had no desire to listen to it again since it came out. But you're right. It does sound like Dream Theater. 

I'm not sure what the general consensus is on this album. From what I read when it came out, fans (on the DT Forum at least) seemed to like it and it got good reviews. Maybe *I'm* the one who is musically retarded


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## TGN (Jan 25, 2017)

I really liked the album as a live experience (saw them here in Amsterdam). It's a bit like how I really like good opera live, but I rarely listen to it on CD.


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## Demiurge (Jan 25, 2017)

It's not even that it's a bad album- it's just that the way it's being promoted, as if DT believes that they've hit conceptual paydirt, is just weird. Really, a concept album about a dystopian future with a kinda-smug conceit about the value of (progressive- not that pop pabulum!) music- isn't that just an over-wrought version of 2112?


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## wankerness (Jan 25, 2017)

Demiurge said:


> It's not even that it's a bad album- it's just that the way it's being promoted, as if DT believes that they've hit conceptual paydirt, is just weird. Really, a concept album about a dystopian future with a kinda-smug conceit about the value of (progressive- not that pop pabulum!) music- isn't that just an over-wrought version of 2112?



I guess that's a popular subject for prog/metal bands trying to sound badass. I also blame Queensryche. Fear Factory sure came back to it enough.


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## CreptorStatus (Feb 2, 2017)

The setlist Dream Theater whipped out last night is amazing. Really hope they bring this tour to the US.

*Set 1*
The Dark Eternal Night
The Bigger Picture
Hells Kitchen
The Gift of Music
A Life Left Behind
Our New World
The Spirit Carries On
John Myung Solo
As I Am
Breaking All Illusions
*Set 2: Images and Words*
Pull Me Under
Another Day
Take the Time
Surrounded
Metropolis Pt. 1: The Miracle and the Sleeper
Under a Glass Moon
Wait for Sleep
Learning to Live
*Encore:*
A Change of Seasons (full)


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## JSanta (Feb 3, 2017)

You can put me in the camp that hasn't really liked much of DT since SFAM. That's not to say that the band hasn't had a few good songs, but nothing grabs me like the material from SFAM back to the beginning of their catalog. 

When I read the stuff about MP being fired for wanting to take the break, it seemed evident that a break was what was needed. The music has been stale. I've bought all the new albums - but other than ToT and 6DOIT, nothing has had more than one spin. I still get anxious when I hear the clock ticking on the first track of SFAM, like I know I'm being taken on a journey. I'd love to see MP come back, I just don't see JP admitting that he was wrong.


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## bozothedeathmachine (Feb 3, 2017)

Seeing them in Zurich tonight. Not a bad setlist. I know they're doing I&W end-to-end, which has me pumped. But holy sh**t: ACOS in it's entirety? Please let them do that...



CreptorStatus said:


> The setlist Dream Theater whipped out last night is amazing. Really hope they bring this tour to the US.
> 
> *Set 1*
> The Dark Eternal Night
> ...


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## Genome (Feb 3, 2017)

A few comments in the thread about The Astonishing tour being a failure. I've got it on very good authority (chap who knows the band) that it turned a profit.


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## DLG (Feb 3, 2017)

CreptorStatus said:


> The setlist Dream Theater whipped out last night is amazing. Really hope they bring this tour to the US.
> 
> *Set 1*
> The Dark Eternal Night
> ...



that first set is brutal. Hell's Kitchen is the only decent song.


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## Alberto7 (Feb 3, 2017)

CreptorStatus said:


> The setlist Dream Theater whipped out last night is amazing. Really hope they bring this tour to the US.
> 
> *Set 1*
> The Dark Eternal Night
> ...



ACoS as encore?!? As much as I haven't been a huge fan of their last 3 albums, (not that they're bad or that I don't listen to them - I do - but I just think their previous material is much better) hearing ACoS live would mean I could die a happy man.


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## TheShreddinHand (Feb 3, 2017)

That setlist is killer. Would love to see that!


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## Herrick (Feb 3, 2017)

That set list looks good to me. Images and Words and A Change of Seasons would be worth it. I don't really care what they play before that. I'll have to keep an eye out and see if this is going to happen in the US.


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## fps (Feb 5, 2017)

JSanta said:


> You can put me in the camp that hasn't really liked much of DT since SFAM. That's not to say that the band hasn't had a few good songs, but nothing grabs me like the material from SFAM back to the beginning of their catalog.
> 
> When I read the stuff about MP being fired for wanting to take the break, it seemed evident that a break was what was needed.  The music has been stale. I've bought all the new albums - but other than ToT and 6DOIT, nothing has had more than one spin. I still get anxious when I hear the clock ticking on the first track of SFAM, like I know I'm being taken on a journey. I'd love to see MP come back, I just don't see JP admitting that he was wrong.



To position myself in this debate, let's say I own 4 DT albums, have seen them 3 times, own 3 tab books... and also find them insanely cheesy and laughably over-earnest and pompous. 

There's a thread going through here that people don't know when DT fell off. I think it's pretty obvious and it's right where you say JSanta. SFAM is jampacked full of exceptional music, 6DOIT has some banging single songs but is bloated unnecessarily, ToT is worth listening to every now and again because it's DT really bringing the metulz in a way they don't do on other albums, possibly except bits of Awake. Those two albums they were keeping their heads above water and trying some new things still.

Since then, they've absolutely been treading water, and they definitely needed a break to re-tool and find a new area to move into. They didn't do that. I liked the first record with Mangini but it's apparent that they've been rudderless for a very, very long time now, first with Portnoy burning out and now with no-one to balance Petrucci out.


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## Rachmaninoff (Feb 5, 2017)

fps said:


> SFAM is jampacked full of exceptional music, 6DOIT has some banging single songs but is bloated unnecessarily, ToT is worth listening to every now and again because it's DT really bringing the metulz in a way they don't do on other albums, possibly except bits of Awake. Those two albums they were keeping their heads above water and trying some new things still.
> 
> Since then, they've absolutely been treading water, and they definitely needed a break to re-tool and find a new area to move into. They didn't do that. I liked the first record with Mangini but it's apparent that they've been rudderless for a very, very long time now, first with Portnoy burning out and now with *no-one to balance Petrucci out*.



Pretty well summed up. 

It hurts me saying this, but today's DT sucks.


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## Herrick (Feb 5, 2017)

I agree Dream Theater have settled into an established musical format "sticking to their guns" pretty much after Train Of Thought but it's a format I enjoy a lot (except for Octavarium). 

Fans who think they have sucked throughout the last 10 years and wanted something different...well The Astonishing *is* different so there you go!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 5, 2017)

Herrick said:


> Fans who think they have sucked throughout the last 10 years and wanted something different...well The Astonishing *is* different so there you go!



As someone that hated a lot of their stuff between 2004 - 2011... I find The Astonishing is boring-ish, but leagues better than Nu Theater. It's just the marketing behind The Astonishing is ....ing weird. I don't care about Portnoy as a songwriter, but the band REALLY needs someone to help balance out some ...., since Rudess and Petrucci are running the ship now. LaBrie would rather do his solo stuff, Mike isn't allowed to give his input, and Myung... well... Nothings different there.


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## Herrick (Feb 5, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> As someone that hated a lot of their stuff between 2004 - 2011... I find The Astonishing is boring-ish, but leagues better than Nu Theater. It's just the marketing behind The Astonishing is ....ing weird. I don't care about Portnoy as a songwriter, but the band REALLY needs someone to help balance out some ...., since Rudess and Petrucci are running the ship now. LaBrie would rather do his solo stuff, Mike isn't allowed to give his input, and Myung... well... Nothings different there.



Ha ha I like that! Nu Theater


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## Rachmaninoff (Feb 6, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Nu Theater.



I'm gonna use this name from now on


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## Laimon (Feb 6, 2017)

Saw them live last Friday. 
The first part of the setlist was quite terrible (except indeed for Hell's Kitchen, which is awesome and Labrie-free), but for the rest it is about the ideal DT setlist for me, I wish I had seen this concert back in 1995.
Other than that, Labrie was plain awful: he doesn't get even close to singing those songs decently anymore. And he's not even a good entertainer, for **** sake. Seriously, I had to pretend he wasn't there to really enjoy the gig.


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## AmpAnon (Feb 6, 2017)

I watched 'The Astonishing' last fall at the Sony Center in Toronto. 

The show had great production and sound. Playing was top notch as expected. 

I ended up leaving the show early because I just didn't know the songs that well and I find the whole concept of 'The Astonishing' quite cheesy. As a stand alone story, the whole thing is pretty camp...


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## Herrick (Feb 6, 2017)

Laimon said:


> Saw them live last Friday.
> The first part of the setlist was quite terrible (except indeed for Hell's Kitchen, which is awesome and Labrie-free), but for the rest it is about the ideal DT setlist for me, I wish I had seen this concert back in 1995.
> Other than that, Labrie was plain awful: he doesn't get even close to singing those songs decently anymore. And he's not even a good entertainer, for **** sake. Seriously, I had to pretend he wasn't there to really enjoy the gig.



Interesting. I watched a recent live version of A Change of Seasons on YouTube and they tuned it down. LaBrie still didn't sound all that great. Did they tune down for any of the Images & Words set?


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## Herrick (Feb 6, 2017)

So they are planning on selling that Nomac Majesty. Petrucci talks about it at 2:36

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhx1J90i2o


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## bostjan (Feb 6, 2017)

Herrick said:


> Interesting. I watched a recent live version of A Change of Seasons on YouTube and they tuned it down. LaBrie still didn't sound all that great. Did they tune down for any of the Images & Words set?



I don't know about the whole set, but at least Take the Time is tuned down, specifically to accommodate LaBrie.


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## Laimon (Feb 6, 2017)

Herrick said:


> Interesting. I watched a recent live version of A Change of Seasons on YouTube and they tuned it down. LaBrie still didn't sound all that great. Did they tune down for any of the Images & Words set?



Definitely, at least half a step if not two. And even then Labrie was blowing it nonstop


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## Herrick (Feb 6, 2017)

That's too bad. I still want to see them live some day though.


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## technomancer (Feb 6, 2017)

Herrick said:


> So they are planning on selling that Nomac Majesty. Petrucci talks about it at 2:36
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhx1J90i2o



This wasn't a secret, it was announced as a limited collectors run or some such


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## wankerness (Feb 6, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I don't know about the whole set, but at least Take the Time is tuned down, specifically to accommodate LaBrie.



Is it just that he's old and his voice is giving out? I would assume so, he's over 50! Guess they won't be playing Innocence Faded again!!!


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## Laimon (Feb 6, 2017)

wankerness said:


> Is it just that he's old and his voice is giving out? I would assume so, he's over 50! Guess they won't be playing Innocence Faded again!!!



It's a bit more than that...actually, a lot more. Besides not getting even close to the extension he used to have on early records, he just gets most lines wrong. He hits the notes off like 50% of the time.


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## Herrick (Feb 6, 2017)

Laimon said:


> It's a bit more than that...actually, a lot more. Besides not getting even close to the extension he used to have on early records, he just gets most lines wrong. He hits the notes off like 50% of the time.



As much as I dislike when bands tune down, it might've helped if Dream Theater started tuning down years ago. Just the overall quality & tone of LaBrie's voice (I don't know the correct vocal term) hasn't been very good for a long time. I think LaBrie always sounds good on the studio recordings but the live stuff I've seen is hit or miss.


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## bostjan (Feb 6, 2017)

LaBrie has injured his voice in the past. No one goes on singing with the same voice they had in their 20's, once they are in their 50's. Judging now LaBrie against 1994 LaBrie is like judging 2017 Michael Jordan against 1994 Michael Jordan. But, as a singer, I think it is fair for people to expect something out of him.

You know, that said, I'm thinking of someone like Robert Plant, who still tours around every once in a while, and doesn't sing at all the same way he did in his salad days, but still can entertain the hell out of people, regardless. LaBrie, IMO, was more of an "oh wow, he has a lot of range" than he ever was a super engaging entertainer. I think Portnoy was the most entertaining one, in general, with his stage antics and the way he engaged the fans...

You know, most people like feeling as though they are a part of the experience. Honestly, not to crap on GWAR, and their music, IMO, is fine, but it's not nearly enough on its own to explain their success...people went to their shows to get sprayed with food colouring and water out of giant puppet appendages, because it was interactive.

Watching Dream Theater with Portnoy was pretty cool. He would get people clapping, headbanging, chanting, take photos of the crowds and post them on line, so you could try to find your photo a week or two after the show, and he would interact with people, and even BS with them, at least at the smaller shows. I thought Derek had a knack for that, too, but I only saw him with them once. LaBrie and John Myung seem like decent guys and all, but their theatrics, to me, seemed always a little less organic. IDK. 

I guess that's not really for me to judge, so much as the countless fans of the band. I certainly could not do half as well in LaBrie's shoes. I do see a lot of folks on the internet opining that LaBrie is their least favourite musician in the band. I suppose that I heard the same thing, to a lesser extent, back in during _Awake_, but there were also plenty of folks back then in awe of his range, where I don't see that as much now.

I don't think it's a problem tuning some songs down live, I mean, not only are these guys quite a bit older than they were 25 years ago, but, they've been on the road an awful lot during that time.

It's not like we're talking about DLR here, although, to be fair, he's quite a bit older yet.


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## Laimon (Feb 6, 2017)

So here's there's actual videos of the show I attended, so you can judge if I am too harsh:

https://metalitalia.com/articolo/dream-theater-tutto-images-and-words-dal-vivo-a-zurigo-video/

Check Take the Time's chorus, for instance: https://youtu.be/cfVYIDMLgqg?t=8m55s


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## Sermo Lupi (Feb 6, 2017)

bostjan said:


> LaBrie has injured his voice in the past. No one goes on singing with the same voice they had in their 20's, once they are in their 50's. Judging now LaBrie against 1994 LaBrie is like judging 2017 Michael Jordan against 1994 Michael Jordan. But, as a singer, I think it is fair for people to expect something out of him.



Having just seen Symphony X and watching a 45 year-old Russell Allen nail all of their songs both old and new, I don't think all vocalists fall off in such an extreme way. In my personal opinion, that guys sounds as good as he ever has, and is performing more accurately live than ever before. Romeo, less so, but that's a different discussion. 

LaBrie's voice has always been finicky. As you point out, he injured it sometime after Awake (which was probably his best vocal performance on any album), however he has claimed at various times in the past that he's felt like his voice is back to what it used to be. I want to say he said that around Systematic Chaos, or maybe Black Clouds. I'm pretty sure he had said it whilst Portnoy was still in the band, but I am not certain. 

Whether it's due to damage or not, LaBrie's been fairly hit and miss when it comes to live performances. He was way more accurate on the Astonishing tour than I expected him to be, although I did see the very first show they performed, so I can't speak to whether or not his voice held up over the course of the tour. But there's some performances where he seems to be close to album-accurate, and others where it's just a mess. 

As for Portnoy, I miss that guy dearly. He really was the soul of Dream Theater--if not on his own, than at least through the chemistry he brought to the band with the other members. I really wish he was back in the band and touring Images and Words with them, but it is what it is. Hopefully Mangini has his heart in it and won't go into drum machine mode, since it sounded like he was completely burnt out and uninspired (perhaps even on the verge of leaving DT) in one of his recent interviews. 

I'll be seeing them in April. I am very excited for the show and am trying to avoid spoilers to some extent...I closed my eyes when I saw the setlist on the previous page, haha. At the end of the day I know I'll love the show because I love the music and have such a history with it, but I really would like to see the band performing at their best. This news about LaBrie isn't encouraging, but then again sh!tting all over LaBrie is nothing new. I tend to think he's underrated, honestly.


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## Alberto7 (Feb 7, 2017)

Save for a few live performances and the time after his injury, I've always thought LaBrie is more than decent. I can absolutely see why someone might not like him stylistically speaking (heck, even I think his voice is a little too much sometimes), but I've never hated the guy.

The only time I saw them live during their Progressive Nation tour in 2009, he was fantastic. They played a fair bit of BC&SL, and he nailed it. Even the mighty long The Count of Tuscany I remember him nailing every note, and I very much liked his stage presence. I left that gig pretty happy. I was 18 then though, so what the heck did I know.


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## thedonal (Feb 8, 2017)

From the recent concert vids that came out (Luna Park and Breaking the Fourth Wall), I thought his voice and delivery were getting bit better.

That said, the way he over-pronounces and cadences when speaking (on band announcements and between songs etc) grates on me a bit- it's like vocal training/exercises have become a part of his everyday speaking- I wonder if he talks to the family this way.


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## bostjan (Feb 8, 2017)

I've seen them 12 (?) times. I can attest that LaBrie can vary in his delivery. I don't think it's really fair to contrast him against Russell Allen. Even though the style of the music is similar, the vocal styles are strikingly different. Allen is really more my kind of vocalist, as I think he has a few more tricks up his sleeve and I think his voice is a better fit for metal. LaBrie's basically like the Mariah Carey of progressive music, and I don't mean that in a mean way - he has an unbelievable range, at least looking at his studio work and his most shining live moments. But, honestly, his angry delivery and the lower end of his range, frankly, are not appreciated by DT fans in general. I'd still rate LaBrie as one of the top 100 rock vocalists, but it seems he is quite willing to experiment with styles he can't really pull off, and I think that has been a liability for the band in many ways over their career, and now, as I said, he's getting older, and he's done a lot of miles, so I can understand if his range isn't what it used to be.

Symphony X tours a lot more than I ever have, but, not nearly as much as DT, plus, as I said, Allen's not a range-monster, he's more just a good all-around vocalist, so it's apples and oranges, in my mind.


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## Zalbu (Feb 9, 2017)

Man, imagine if there was some band that still had Portnoy in it and no Labrie... 

Please I'll do anything to resurrect Liquid Tension Experiment


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## Agramal (Feb 9, 2017)

DLG said:


> DT fanboys will buy anything. it's a terrible album.



It really is horrible. I listened to it once through and it came off like a comedy effort, a parody of a rock opera.


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## bostjan (Feb 9, 2017)

Zalbu said:


> Man, imagine if there was some band that still had Portnoy in it and no Labrie...
> 
> Please I'll do anything to resurrect Liquid Tension Experiment



Or if there had been a band with Portnoy and Russell Allen...

LTE was really crazy good, though. Projects that good don't usually last much more than two album cycles, though, typically (Spastic Ink, Freak Guitar, etc.).


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## TheShreddinHand (Feb 9, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Or if there had been a band with Portnoy and Russell Allen...



That's been done, and didn't turn out too good.



I think Portnoy back to DT is inevitable. Mangini looks bored live and honestly DT needs MP back for the live shows at minimum. They are dreadfully boring to see live.


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## stuglue (Feb 9, 2017)

not a fan of this, i listened to the album all the way through. It was very contrived. When DT release concept albums they feel very forced. Pink Floyd created a concept album masterpiece with the Wall. DT on the other hand, not so good and i think that comes down to poor songwriting ability. No one will ever doubt their technical ability but i sometimes feel they use that to justify a rather bland song. I'd like to see Kevin Moore back in the band but i doubt that'll happen


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## Xiphos68 (Feb 9, 2017)

Man... That sucks.  

He did so, so, so well with The Astonishing show singing I was hoping he'd be able to sing the I&W well. It's just too high honestly because I'd imagine he'd kill it at a lower range or phrase it differently while singing. Better that than blowing your voice. 

Yes. James Labrie got food-poison back in the day and didn't follow the Doctors order by staying out of the tour presented for "Awake." Therefore, he injured his voice badly and it is now the way it is. However, he has improved it, thankfully. I've loved his voice on the old albums and when they performed live in Japan back in the 90's, it was CRAZY how good he was and his range. I loved it. <3


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## Sermo Lupi (Feb 9, 2017)

^ I thought Adrenaline Mob was great. The first album had some great songs, even if it was all a bit over the top. But with a name like 'Adrenaline Mob', what did you expect . Also didn't help that the guitar player wasn't a big name, or that his soloing style was a little idiosyncratic. 



bostjan said:


> Symphony X tours a lot more than I ever have, but, not nearly as much as DT, plus, as I said, Allen's not a range-monster, he's more just a good all-around vocalist, so it's apples and oranges, in my mind.



Agreed on most points, but saying Allen isn't a 'range monster' is a little bizarre...especially since we can easily look this up (videos below). 

James Labrie: range of E&#9837;2-B&#9837;5 according to the video, which includes some live shrieks on the high end and spoken passages on the low end. A safer estimate from the recordings in that video might be G#2-G5. 

Russell Allen: A1-F&#9839;5 according to this video, which again uses spoken passages for the low end (even if it separates them them the low sung notes). I'd say A2-F5 is a better estimate for his range on sustained sung notes. 

So very similar ranges, really, even if the the sounds of their singing voices are so different. Obviously there's the question of how much each singer plays around with the range as well, and I do think Labrie jumps around the scale more, particularly during the Awake-era and before. But to be honest with you, this is kind of like comparing Lemieux and Gretzky...they're both legendary vocalists with massive vocal ranges that they've demonstrated live and on recordings. I wouldn't personally cut Allen any slack for having an 'easier' vocal style...nor would I be too eager to criticise Labrie for his live performances either. They both have difficult jobs.


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## bostjan (Feb 9, 2017)

TheShreddinHand said:


> That's been done, and didn't turn out too good











Sermo Lupi said:


> James Labrie: range of E&#9837;2-B&#9837;5 according to the video, which includes some live shrieks on the high end and spoken passages on the low end. A safer estimate from the recordings in that video might be G#2-G5.
> 
> Russell Allen: A1-F&#9839;5 according to this video, which again uses spoken passages for the low end (even if it separates them them the low sung notes). I'd say A2-F5 is a better estimate for his range on sustained sung notes.



Hmm, I guess I estimated their range off of their recorded music, not their spoken voice, but either way, Allen might have tons of range that he doesn't use as much as LaBrie. In my mind, that's a good thing. If I was an alien cyborg with a range from A000 to A9, and I wanted a singing career, I would say sticking in the range of comfortable hearing for most of my work would be better, in the long run, than flaunting that range too much.

Don't get me wrong, I love _Images and Words_, but there are parts of it that I can't even badly sing along with in the car, because it's just too high.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 9, 2017)

Why.


whyyyyyyyyy.


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## Zalbu (Feb 9, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Why.
> 
> 
> whyyyyyyyyy.


Turns out Petrucci isn't all that progressive after all, eh? Eh?

I apologize


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## Given To Fly (Feb 9, 2017)

Zalbu said:


> Turns out Petrucci isn't all that progressive after all, eh? Eh?
> 
> I apologize


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## arasys (Feb 9, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Why.
> 
> 
> whyyyyyyyyy.




I was going to comment on how last year's concert was so boring in Chicago thanks to that album, which even tops Iced Earth's persistently monoton rythms then I saw this... 

Their album theme is totally oxymoron to what he's supporting imo. Tragicomic.


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## chopeth (Feb 9, 2017)

Zalbu said:


> Turns out Petrucci isn't all that progressive after all, eh? Eh?
> 
> I apologize





On the Petrucci thing supporting that guy... don't believe it.


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## Black Mamba (Feb 9, 2017)

Of course Petrucci supports the God Emperor. Greatness recognizes greatness.

This Majesty looks as if it were made for The President. Gorgeous!


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## JSanta (Feb 9, 2017)

Just wanted to add to the comments about range. I was actually listening to their live show from Bloodstock last year, and he sounds as good if not better than he did on the first SX albums. The music is cheesy, but what a voice! Not sure if everyone knows, but Russell Allen has been touring with TSO at least for the past couple of years, and the guy is an absolute beast live. Talk about range. Easily one of the best voices in the show - he's an all around incredible singer. And they're doing two shows a day, granted he's not lead on all the songs, but he's got whatever IT is. 

Another guy that has crazy range is Chris Cornell. His voice may not be as strong as it was in the early 90s, but he still hits almost everything.

JB has always had an awkward delivery, and I think the constant touring and demand on what appears to be the full range of his voice has taken it's toll. Though I remember from the Petrucci Forum days that people were talking about the decline of JB since before the SFAM days.


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## Sermo Lupi (Feb 9, 2017)

JSanta said:


> Just wanted to add to the comments about range. I was actually listening to their live show from Bloodstock last year, and he sounds as good if not better than he did on the first SX albums. The music is cheesy, but what a voice! Not sure if everyone knows, but Russell Allen has been touring with TSO at least for the past couple of years, and the guy is an absolute beast live. Talk about range. Easily one of the best voices in the show - he's an all around incredible singer. And they're doing two shows a day, granted he's not lead on all the songs, but he's got whatever IT is.
> 
> Another guy that has crazy range is Chris Cornell. His voice may not be as strong as it was in the early 90s, but he still hits almost everything.
> 
> JB has always had an awkward delivery, and I think the constant touring and demand on what appears to be the full range of his voice has taken it's toll. Though I remember from the Petrucci Forum days that people were talking about the decline of JB since before the SFAM days.



Absolutely. The best voice in metal, in my opinion. Aside from the range and the skill, Russell Allen is blessed with that characteristic vocal tone he has, and it's a very rare thing for sure. It's the best definition of hitting the genetic lottery in music that I can think of, and that includes Paul Gilbert's eight-foot long pinky finger  Hell of a frontman, too...owns every bit of what he does, and it's like magic watching him and Romeo interact live. 

Anyway, back to DT. I don't think any of that Trump stuff belongs in here, honestly, but what John said wasn't really worthy of that headline. The 'endorsement' (if you can call it that) was pretty tepid...it was more or less the same 'I think we should give him a chance' remark you get from any moderate. If anything, Petrucci is probably just a lifelong Republican and voted for the guy...and that's not all that insane given the history in America of voting along party lines. I mean, short of cornering John and grilling him on the minutiae of Trump's policy, I don't think this reflects poorly on him at all. He's along for the ride just like every other American, only he has a positive attitude about it. Hell, has anyone ever seen Petrucci be negative about _anything_?


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## chopeth (Feb 10, 2017)

Black Mamba said:


> Of course Petrucci supports the God Emperor. Greatness recognizes greatness.
> 
> This Majesty looks as if it were made for The President. Gorgeous!



Cheesy and ugly as fvck, I'd rather say


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## bostjan (Feb 10, 2017)

Black Mamba said:


> Of course Petrucci supports the God Emperor. Greatness recognizes greatness.
> 
> This Majesty looks as if it were made for The President. Gorgeous!



Did John Pettrucci and Chris Letchford have a guitar-baby?!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 10, 2017)

chopeth said:


> Cheesy and ugly as fvck, I'd rather say



SAD!


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## chopeth (Feb 10, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> SAD!



BUT TRUE


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## tribalfusion (Feb 10, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Absolutely. The best voice in metal, in my opinion. Aside from the range and the skill, Russell Allen is blessed with that characteristic vocal tone he has, and it's a very rare thing for sure. It's the best definition of hitting the genetic lottery in music that I can think of, and that includes Paul Gilbert's eight-foot long pinky finger  Hell of a frontman, too...owns every bit of what he does, and it's like magic watching him and Romeo interact live.
> 
> Anyway, back to DT. I don't think any of that Trump stuff belongs in here, honestly, but what John said wasn't really worthy of that headline. The 'endorsement' (if you can call it that) was pretty tepid...it was more or less the same 'I think we should give him a chance' remark you get from any moderate. If anything, Petrucci is probably just a lifelong Republican and voted for the guy...and that's not all that insane given the history in America of voting along party lines. I mean, short of cornering John and grilling him on the minutiae of Trump's policy, I don't think this reflects poorly on him at all. He's along for the ride just like every other American, only he has a positive attitude about it. Hell, has anyone ever seen Petrucci be negative about _anything_?




I don't know how much discussion on these topics is allowed around here so I'll be as brief as possible...

This is a bit more disappointing than had it come from some middle of the road rock or pop artist because in spite of a lot of erosion through the years, there is still some expectation that a progressive rock musician actually reflect progressive elements in his life in general and Trump is about as far as you can get from that. 

When I think of prog musicians speaking about public affairs, people like Robert Wyatt come to mind. Moreover, almost every jazz and fusion musician you could name is pretty vehemently anti-Trump from John McLaughlin to Scott Henderson etc.

John's more than entitled to like Trump but others are also entitled to find it a sad commentary on the state of his worldview and to see it as incongruous with the space in life he occupies.


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## TheShreddinHand (Feb 10, 2017)

bostjan said:


>



Gotcha, sorry about that. I just saw the big eye smilie and figured you were excited about the prospect of them in the same band. My bad!

If I had my dream lineup it would be a DT/Sy X mashup, Allen on Vox, JP and MR on guitar, Lepond on bass, Portnoy on drums....not sure about keys though.


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## bostjan (Feb 10, 2017)

TheShreddinHand said:


> Gotcha, sorry about that. I just saw the big eye smilie and figured you were excited about the prospect of them in the same band. My bad!
> 
> If I had my dream lineup it would be a DT/Sy X mashup, Allen on Vox, JP and MR on guitar, Lepond on bass, Portnoy on drums....not sure about keys though.



Michael LePond is a severely under-rated bass player, IMO. Jordan Rudess is a really good keyboard player, and I really enjoy listening to him, but I say I had more of a connection with Kevin Moore's phrasing. Michael Pinnella is also a favourite of mine, but it's always hard to say with keyboards until you hear the rest of the band. I'd love to see Trooch and Romeo work on a project together, though, since both are so creative and have technical chops to spare.

But as far as Russell Allen's voice, he does have a much more present tone than pretty much everyone else in the genre. I know SX has done some cheesy stuff in the past, but Allen's work just keeps getting better and better overall with time.


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## Black Mamba (Feb 10, 2017)

EBMM also came out with a rather fetching purple sparkle. I would prefer gold hardware on both, however.


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## Sermo Lupi (Feb 10, 2017)

tribalfusion said:


> I don't know how much discussion on these topics is allowed around here so I'll be as brief as possible...



Agreed, so let me briefly respond in kind: I have no idea why you'd infer that a musician who creates 'progressive' music is also a progressive person. It is a genre of music with a fairly well-accepted definition after all, and there's no criterion stipulating political views. Historically, prog may have grown out of so-called 'hippie' movements that were quite liberal, but this is incidental to the music...and I should reiterate again that I don't think Petrucci is a 'Trump-supporter' based on the statement he made above. That label is very loaded these days, and I don't think any of the connotations it implies are appropriate here, at least not until (or rather, IF) Petrucci comes out and says a bunch of moronic things about muslims destroying the country, etc. Obviously Blabbermouth are trying to capitalise on some clickbait here, and look at that: it worked. 



bostjan said:


> But as far as Russell Allen's voice, he does have a much more present tone than pretty much everyone else in the genre. I know SX has done some cheesy stuff in the past, but Allen's work just keeps getting better and better overall with time.



Definitely. As for the cheesy stuff, I suppose Symphony X has done some Sword & Sorcery-type music, but one of the band's (and especially Russell Allen's) acknowledged influences is Dio. So there's an archetype that they're following there, and one that's playing more upon old literary themes than dungeons and dragons, if you get my meaning. It can be cheesy, but not in that nerdy sort of way. 

For my own part, I've never really found most of their work to be that cheesy, but maybe I'm too far into it to see the forest for the trees. Certainly the frilly shirts they were associated with in the 90s doesn't help their case  But in all seriousness, the Odyssey is quite possibly the greatest homage to Homer's work in the world of entertainment in many decades; it stirs me more than any film adaptation I've ever seen. Even as lauded as that song/album is, I find its accolades understated...and if we have to put up with a few songs about knights, battlefields, and magical apprentices to get it, fine by me. 

To tie this back to Dream Theater and the Astonishing, since that's what this thread is all about, I find Symphony X always does a remarkable job in teasing out interesting themes in their songs, and presents them in very poetic ways. The Odyssey did this in spades: with just a few words--brief, but potent and powerfully spoken--the band deftly captured Odysseus' longing for Ithaca, his boundless sense of adventure whilst lost on the open sea, the horrific way he kills the cyclops Polyphemus, his rage upon returning to Penelope, and so on...just superbly done from start to finish. I think it is easy to overlook how incredibly hard it is to make so much of so little, yet it's something Symphony X has done on many albums. So it goes with both times they tackled Milton's work, and with V: A new Mythology Suite, which dealt with Edgar Cayce's accounts of Atlantis. Admittedly, these albums are their best ones, but even Underworld had some decent lyrical themes and powerful moments, and it wasn't even propping itself up on some grand, overarching concept like those other albums were. As a casual exploration of Dante's writings set to heavy music, I thought it turned out just fine. 

Contrasted with the Astonishing (which is admittedly a bit more ambitious since it created its own mythos from the ground up), I find the themes and sentiments rather clumsy by comparison. Which isn't to say it's all bad...but that's definitely a huge part of what was missing from that album for me, especially since DT did it all so well with Scenes from a Memory. Even if the general arch of the Astonishing weren't so cliche, it doesn't do as good a job of eking out the profundity in its themes--and to be clear, those themes did have a lot of potential: the loss of music from culture, the repercussions of technological collapse, the attempts to preserve human tradition in a mechanical world, etc. I can't help but feel that the Astonishing would be so much better if it didn't deal with these concepts in such a hamfisted way, even if the music were completely unchanged.

Not sure where I'm really going with this, but yeah. I partly mention it because Russell Allen writes a lot of his own lyrics and Labrie does not, and that's probably something else that should be brought up in comparing them. If we're still on the topic of the hypothetical DT/Symphony X supergroup, the Astonishing probably would have been improved substantially even if the only change was to put Allen on vocals and let him do this thing with writing his own lyrics to Petrucci's chosen themes.


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## JSanta (Feb 10, 2017)

Sermo Lupi said:


> Definitely. As for the cheesy stuff, I suppose Symphony X has done some Sword & Sorcery-type music, but one of the band's (and especially Russell Allen's) acknowledged influences is Dio. So there's an archetype that they're following there, and one that's playing more upon old literary themes than dungeons and dragons, if you get my meaning. It can be cheesy, but not in that nerdy sort of way.
> 
> For my own part, I've never really found most of their work to be that cheesy, but maybe I'm too far into it to see the forest for the trees. Certainly the frilly shirts they were associated with in the 90s doesn't help their case  But in all seriousness, the Odyssey is quite possibly the greatest homage to Homer's work in the world of entertainment in many decades; it stirs me more than any film adaptation I've ever seen. Even as lauded as that song/album is, I find its accolades understated...and if we have to put up with a few songs about knights, battlefields, and magical apprentices to get it, fine by me.
> 
> ...



This is where I think we can have viable comparisons between the two groups. Time and time again, SX has been able to explore complex themes without coming across as trying too hard, and that's what I have felt with The Astonishing. I said this (to myself I'm sure) that I agree with Portnoy about the band needing a break. They have toured and recorded relentlessly for decades. They needed to refresh their creative juices. 

I agree with everything else you've written as well. I can accept that bands grow and change - I welcome it in fact. But I think DT has done a poor job of that unfortunately.


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## Herrick (Feb 10, 2017)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Why.
> 
> 
> whyyyyyyyyy.




I don't really pay attention to lyrics so I could be way off...but I always got the sense that Petrucci was a Christian and not a cultural Christian but a tr00 Christian. Petrucci also runs a business so it's not surprising (to me) that he'd be in favor of a Republican President...or at least one who claims to be a Republican. 

I'm not a fan of Trump, the Repuclican Party or Democratic Party but I don't see why we can't talk about it as long as we don't bash anyone leading to a closing of the thread. If it's against the rules to talk about it then Herrick apologizes to the mods. 

Live Long and Prosper.


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## Genome (Feb 11, 2017)

Black Mamba said:


> EBMM also came out with a rather fetching purple sparkle. I would prefer gold hardware on both, however.


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## Herrick (Feb 11, 2017)

I'm not a fan of the looks of the Majesty guitar but I think a more powerful-looking non-choad-like headstock would really help. I'm not talking about some pointy "metal" headstock but I don't know. I've never been a fan of MM's midget Fender headstocks.


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