# Maximizing Sustain on a fretless?



## Brill (Aug 1, 2012)

How do you do it? I've heard that making the fret board out of Brass helps, but does it have adverse effects?


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## explosivo (Aug 2, 2012)

Weight, for sure. That would be a few pounds of brass. You could look at glass as a lighter alternative.


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## Necromagnon (Aug 2, 2012)

Stupid question: why do you need longer sustain? Common wooden fretless bass don't have enough?
Except santana, I think I don't know anybody that needs a 2 min sustain...


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## Brill (Aug 2, 2012)

Necromagnon said:


> Stupid question: why do you need longer sustain? Common wooden fretless bass don't have enough?
> Except santana, I think I don't know anybody that needs a 2 min sustain...



I was talking to a kuthier about getting a custom 6 fret less that has a lot of sustain. He said that sustain is a problem..


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## Necromagnon (Aug 2, 2012)

Loxodrome said:


> I was talking to a kuthier about getting a custom 6 fret less that has a lot of sustain. He said that sustain is a problem..


I'm not very familiar with fretless bass yet, but all I've tried or eared didn't have any "sustain problem".
And another thing, I don't personnaly needs a very long sustain. If you play one note per minute, I'll understand, but otherway...
My bass I've build a few times ago didn't have a good sustain because I mess up fret dress specially. There's no problem since I play metal at moderate/high speed.

I trully don't understand this quest for eternal sustain. No offense, dude, you can do whatever you want.


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## Brill (Aug 2, 2012)

Necromagnon said:


> I'm not very familiar with fretless bass yet, but all I've tried or eared didn't have any "sustain problem".
> And another thing, I don't personnaly needs a very long sustain. If you play one note per minute, I'll understand, but otherway...
> My bass I've build a few times ago didn't have a good sustain because I mess up fret dress specially. There's no problem since I play metal at moderate/high speed.
> 
> I trully don't understand this quest for eternal sustain. No offense, dude, you can do whatever you want.



Regular 6 not a bass... I'm trying to get a good ambient guitar


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## Necromagnon (Aug 2, 2012)

You can look at the Vigier excalibur fretless. The fingerboard is made of a metallic material, I don't remember which one. I think it's more about final sound than sustain, but it can be a good starting point.


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## silent_k (Aug 2, 2012)

Plan on having it set up for heavier gauge strings, like 12s or 13s -- that will also help the sustain issues. I made a fretless guitar a year or so ago and was having a lot of trouble with that, especially on the upper frets and higher strings (not a question of "eternal" sustain, but just basic, not-having-the-notes-die-immediately sustain). My guitar teacher is a very skilled fretless player (plays a Vigier) and he recommended bigger strings, which made a huge difference. You probably won't ever get massive sustain on a fretless, but heavier strings will help.

I used System 3 mirror coat epoxy on the fingerboard of my fretless guitar, and a fretless bass I made around the same time is just straight-up ebony (I will probably coat that as well, though -- the wood gets beat up fast). David Fiuczynski's fretless guitars, I believe, are all just wood fingerboards, but you have to choose something hard like ebony, pau ferro, etc. Epoxy coating is fairly common among fretless bass builders and that might be easier to do than source a metal fingerboard.


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## Brill (Aug 2, 2012)

this is what he emailed me
"Fretless 25". 
One big issue with fretless guitars is they have very poor sustain (if we us normal materials) 
So we'd have to use dense heavy woods to maximise the sustain, 
Or I could make the fretboard of of brass as this will make each note sustain longer. 

Also we could use a fenades sustainer unit. Basically it creates controlled feedback or sustain inducing a magnetic field on the string. 
Seems like it'd be good from ambient type work, 
http://www.fernandesguitars.com/sustainer/sustainer-kits.html"
Are these good options for increasing the sustain?


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## iloki (Aug 2, 2012)

the Fernandes Sunstainer or a Sustainiac would absolutely eliminate sustain problems, and, they seem like they'd be fun to play with


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## Metal_Webb (Aug 2, 2012)

Sustainer pup and an epoxy coating on the fingerboard should make for maximum sustain. The advantage of the epoxy as well is it'll make the thing last forever as well as look the complete sex.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 2, 2012)

Bigger strings + ebow or sustainer.


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## djohns74 (Aug 2, 2012)

Brass fretboard?



... brass?


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 2, 2012)

I have one of the cheapest fretless basses you could probably get and I don't have any sustain problems... Sounds like poppycock to me...


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## Goatchrist (Aug 2, 2012)

Necromagnon said:


> You can look at the Vigier excalibur fretless. The fingerboard is made of a metallic material, I don't remember which one. I think it's more about final sound than sustain, but it can be a good starting point.



Here's a pretty good demo:



Edit:
Since I'm a huge fan of Carbon necks, I want to show you this.
_*
"CARBON NECKS PROVIDE BETTER SUSTAIN AND VOLUME 

Carbon fiber is significantly stronger than wood. When guitar strings vibrate, some amount of vibrational energy is absorbed (wasted) by the deformation of the neck itself. Carbon fiber necks, owing to their superior strength and stiffness, deform much less compared to their wooden counterparts. As a result, the strings on guitars with carbon fiber necks tend to vibrate much longer (sustain) and more of the vibrational energy of the string gets transmitted to the soundboard resulting in higher acoustic volume."*_
(Found here: http://www.facebook.com/notes/rains...?comment_id=2083747&offset=0&total_comments=8)

If you want a fretless carbon neck, you should contact Steve Mosher from Moses Graphite: http://mosesgraphite.com/
He definitely has something for you.

Hope this helped.


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## Necromagnon (Aug 2, 2012)

Goatchrist said:


> Here's a pretty good demo:



I was thinking about this video, precisely.




Goatchrist said:


> Edit:
> Since I'm a huge fan of Carbon necks, I want to show you this.
> _*
> "CARBON NECKS PROVIDE BETTER SUSTAIN AND VOLUME
> ...


This is tipically the way of thinking of the 80's. And why don't we see so many aluminium necks? or other stuff like this: Kramer Aluminum Neck Guitars as an example.

Ok, maybe a harder neck will improve a little sustain, but not as much as a sustainer or ebow can do. If you gain at least a few ms playing with materials, I think you consider to be happy.


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## VigierUSA (Aug 7, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I have one of the cheapest fretless basses you could probably get and I don't have any sustain problems... Sounds like poppycock to me...



Definitely not poppycock!

It's a matter of physics... if you think about fretting a note on a fretted board, all the energy (in the form of vibrations) from the string is contained between the fret (which is very hard/dense) and the saddle (also very hard/dense) - they don't absorb the strings vibrations. When you remove the fret from the equation, now the string is pinched between your finger and the board on one end (two relatively soft materials which absorb tons of energy) and the saddle on the other.

We use iMetal boards (formerly Delta Metal) to maximize sustain by eliminating the wood from the equation. We also slam the action insanely low to minimize the contact your finger makes with the string. Tonally, it's way mellower than you might think, you can get traditional fretless tones, but with all the sustain of a fretted. Frankly, I think these are more prominent on a guitar than a bass, but it still holds true!

So, really you want whatever is densest. We use iMetal (an alloy), others have used glass (also really good, but I think more prone to wear/breakage). Ebony is popular for this reason, too.

OP - I hope that helps!


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 12, 2012)

So I'm lucky? I think it's all in the vibrato technique. 

Theory is theory. The real world doesn't always work the same as theory. Sorry, but even though I don't doubt its merit, I don't question real life exp either.

A lot of builders say a lotta shit to sell guitars. I don't believe in tonewoods either so you can take what I say however you please.


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## MF_Kitten (Aug 12, 2012)

VigierUSA said:


> We also slam the action insanely low to minimize the contact your finger makes with the string



that was going to be my contribution 

also, just get a sustainer. Just do it, man. stop thinking, just get a sustainer. Sustainiac ones don't need a huge routing job, and works well.


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## noUser01 (Aug 13, 2012)

... add frets.  No but seriously, fretless guitars are awesome and a good compressor will help, but putting some epoxy on that fretboard or using a sustainer pickup will help you a TON.


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## in-pursuit (Aug 13, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> So I'm lucky? I think it's all in the vibrato technique.  Theory is theory. The real world doesn't always work the same as theory. Sorry, but even though I don't doubt its merit, I don't question real life exp either.


 
I think the OP is talking about improving sustain in general not just with vibrato, also the original post is aimed towards 6 string fretless guitar and not bass (although the query is just as valid with either). While I agree with both yourself and user_Necromagnon that a well made/modded fretless bass usually has quite a usable amount of sustain, I can say from experience that the difference in sustain on a fretless guitar is much more noticable than on a fretless bass. Perhaps my fretless guitar conversion was not very well done and maybe you've played much better specimens than I have, but that has been my limited experience thus far.



Konfyouzd said:


> A lot of builders say a lotta shit to sell guitars. I don't believe in tonewoods either so you can take what I say however you please.


 
I can see what you're saying and agree about tonewoods having little to do with tone on electric instruments, but I do think they can affect the sustain due to the varying densities along a length of wood compared to a man made materials such as metals and carbon fibre. I think in this case the claim of using such materials to increase sustain on a fretless does seem to have the science to back it up to a certain degree. I'd wager that it's more than just a theory and more than likely there have been companies who have either had access to the relevant experimental data or who have conducted their own experiments to verify these claims in order to incorperate them into their products. I would doubt very much that a company like Vigier or Kramer would invest a lot of time and money into altering their production process to include these materials if they didn't honestly believe it put their product ahead of others in some way. If a company wanted to go down the path of marketing placebos into their products there would be much cheaper and easier ways to do it I would think.



VigierUSA said:


> Definitely not poppycock!
> 
> It's a matter of physics... if you think about fretting a note on a fretted board, all the energy (in the form of vibrations) from the string is contained between the fret (which is very hard/dense) and the saddle (also very hard/dense) - they don't absorb the strings vibrations. When you remove the fret from the equation, now the string is pinched between your finger and the board on one end (two relatively soft materials which absorb tons of energy) and the saddle on the other.


 
This is something I have been thinking about quite a lot recently, but the conclusions I came up with could be considered to be pretty impractical. I'd like to preface this by saying this is all purely just me thinking out loud and I don't really have a lot of technical experience with making fretless guitars, I'm not trying to say that nobody else has already thought of this and I'm not attempting to disprove anyone else by saying this it's just kind of what I thought about the problem.....

The science behind this thinking is definitely in place, but I wonder whether employing a denser material on just one of the contact surfaces of the string when fretting would be as effective as improving the density of both contact surfaces. Especially when you consider that, of the two materials which are working together to fret the note, the flesh of your finger is by far and away the least dense of the two. If someone came up with some kind of fingertip cover made of a more rigid material that would probably be ideal for increasing sustain, as the loss of vibrational energy must surely be attributed mostly to the flesh of your finger resting on the string in front of the point where it is actually being pressed onto the fretboard. 

The biggest problem that I can see with going the route of finger tip covers would be that even if a composite material of some kind could be produced that had the required properties to increase sustain _and_ was flexible and thin enough to be moulded over your fingertips without being obstructive to playing, you would have to somehow deal with the fact that there is a large difference between the shape and size of peoples fingers. 

Of course I'm definitely not trying to say that making the fretboard out of a denser material wouldn't positively effect the sustain, just that the fretboard material probably plays a much smaller role than the fingers themselves.



Goatchrist said:


> If you want a fretless carbon neck, you should contact Steve Mosher from Moses Graphite: Moses Graphite | Sound Tools For The 21st Century
> He definitely has something for you.
> 
> Hope this helped.


 
While I have only owned one guitar with a carbon neck which was fretted, I can say that I was very impressed with the sustain that the guitar had. It was a Moses Graphite neck on my headless Steinberger copy which is now with user Weimat_01, I'm sure that he can attest to the sustain of that guitar. Even though my experience with that neck could hardly be considered a controlled experiment comparying the sustain properties of a carbon vs traditional wooden neck, I would say that if my goal was to maximise sustain on a guitar fretless or otherwise that I would definitely keep a Moses Graphite neck at the top of my list of priorities to look into.

Just my long winded 2c. 

tl;dr? we need metal fingers


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## Amanita (Aug 13, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> tonewoods either so you can take what I say however you please.


just put some thick soft cloth on your fretboard somewhere and try playing on that. any difference? 
tonewoods ain't no magick. density, Young's modulus and acoustic absorption are all measurable parameters and they do matter in an acoustic system that is a solidbody guitar/bass


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## VigierUSA (Aug 13, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Theory is theory. The real world doesn't always work the same as theory. Sorry, but even though I don't doubt its merit, I don't question real life exp either.
> 
> A lot of builders say a lotta shit to sell guitars. I don't believe in tonewoods either so you can take what I say however you please.



You're entitled to you opinion, but have you ever played a Surfreter?

iGuitar Magazine Issue 9 Steve Morse Interview: Vigier Excalibur Surfreter Special Review

You also don't have to take my word for it!



> I think in this case the claim of using such materials to increase sustain on a fretless does seem to have the science to back it up to a certain degree. I'd wager that it's more than just a theory and more than likely there have been companies who have either had access to the relevant experimental data or who have conducted their own experiments to verify these claims in order to incorperate them into their products. I would doubt very much that a company like Vigier or Kramer would invest a lot of time and money into altering their production process to include these materials if they didn't honestly believe it put their product ahead of others in some way. If a company wanted to go down the path of marketing placebos into their products there would be much cheaper and easier ways to do it I would think.



This!


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## VigierUSA (Aug 13, 2012)

in-pursuit said:


> This is something I have been thinking about quite a lot recently, but the conclusions I came up with could be considered to be pretty impractical. I'd like to preface this by saying this is all purely just me thinking out loud and I don't really have a lot of technical experience with making fretless guitars, I'm not trying to say that nobody else has already thought of this and I'm not attempting to disprove anyone else by saying this it's just kind of what I thought about the problem.....
> 
> The science behind this thinking is definitely in place, but I wonder whether employing a denser material on just one of the contact surfaces of the string when fretting would be as effective as improving the density of both contact surfaces. Especially when you consider that, of the two materials which are working together to fret the note, the flesh of your finger is by far and away the least dense of the two. If someone came up with some kind of fingertip cover made of a more rigid material that would probably be ideal for increasing sustain, as the loss of vibrational energy must surely be attributed mostly to the flesh of your finger resting on the string in front of the point where it is actually being pressed onto the fretboard.
> 
> ...



Well like I said earlier, the second half of our particular technique is slamming the action super super low so we take your fingers out of the equation as much as possible. I think you and Patrice are/were in the same headspace when he was conceiving the Surfreter. 

I think the biggest roadblock on this concept would be feel. To me, it seems like it would be very bizarre to play with something on my fingertips.


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## troyguitar (Aug 13, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> I have one of the cheapest fretless basses you could probably get and I don't have any sustain problems... Sounds like poppycock to me...


 
It's because you are thinking about a bass. This is one area where bass and guitar perform quite differently. The energy in a big long bass string is so much higher than that of a little guitar string that you can play on a plain rosewood board and have ample sustain with a bass but not a guitar. Think of a violin or viola playing pizzicato - that is closer to a fretless guitar and they have almost no sustain compared to a bass/cello. When I was doing my fretless experiments I learned this first hand. 

Fingering technique is absolutely huge (way more important than fretting technique on a regular guitar) and makes at least as much of a difference as materials/setup, but the materials do make quite a difference.

My cheapo solution was to epoxy a thin sheet of aluminum over the top of the fingerboard and play on that. Costs almost nothing and makes a huge difference (and it looks cool too ). The other 2 things to do to improve sustain on a fretless guitar: bigger strings and TONS of practice. I haven't played mine in years now but when I did play it I was getting better tone and sustain every day for weeks. I'd wait at least 6 months before making any conclusions about the tone/sustain of your instrument if you are new to fretless guitar.


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## Al NiCotin (Aug 13, 2012)

An E-bow. But its massive and, despite some tries , this thing can't be hidden likes a mediator
If someone can invent an universal and non destructive support on the guitar for an E-bow that you can grab very quickly (hey! you know like the thimble hole on Ron Thall's guitar )


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## JohnIce (Aug 13, 2012)

troyguitar said:


> Think of a violin or viola playing *pizzicato* - that is closer to a fretless guitar and they have almost no sustain compared to a bass/cello. When I was doing my fretless experiments I learned this first hand.



Exactly. The sound of a de-fretted rosewood board guitar sounds more like a pizzicato violin than a guitar. Sounds more "doff" than "twang".

In short, basses and guitars simply can't be compared in this discussion.


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## Mvotre (Feb 18, 2016)

all right! Necro bumping a old thread instead of making a new one.

So, I got some problems with my normal guitar (posted here), and then I remembered I got a real real cheap guitar (strat style) I traded for a distortion pedal a long time ago. Found that one, and I even stored the old strings 

so, I removed the frets (busted anyway), filled the slots, wired just the neck pickup and played. REALLY nice! I tried fretless a long time ago, but now it seens so cool, and seens to work with what I'm playing. 

I'm already testing what chords work (barring more than 2 strings is bad), and I can play perfect intonated like a 4 year old learning the violin, but it's just a matter of time.

Anyway, I got poor sustain on the B and almost nothing of sound on the E (by the way I will tune in 4ths one whole step below). So, fretless players, check with me if those will help:

1 - thicker strings. The plan is 0.12, whole step below, as listed. Maybe 0.13? Right now I got some 0.09 (I believe) rusted to hell.
2 - lower the nut? Right now it's setup just like a normal guitar, and all the reference I found talk about real low action. 
3 - add a humbucker on the neck (right now it's a cheap ass ceramic single coil).
4 - also, do I need to apply force on the neck? sometimes it make the note clearer, but I believe it's just that I found the perfect spot on the fretboard for that note. Playing normally, it's amazing how efortless it is to play
4 - other option: buy a 7 string set, and skip the high e? 

I'm not expecting sustain for days, but at least a equal (or at least a bit better) note on the high E. I believe that just the thicker strings will help a lot. If it works, and it sounded better than it sounds now (and I just like a lot), I'm pretty sure I will glue a mirror to my other guitar


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## odibrom (Feb 18, 2016)

Ok, replying to a necro bump 

I have an RG7321 defretted guitar with a sustainiac in the neck. On to your questions:

YES, I use .013s, flatwound tuned to E standard (E4 to B2) on a rosewood fingerboard.
YES, strings must be a sheet of paper away from the fingerboard at the nut for optimal action and playing comfort.
No need for that, a compressor before the amp solves the single coil lack of punch if needed, plus the single coil gives a nice sparkier balance to the mellow tone of the de-fretted guitar.
What do you mean by this? Pressing harder on the strings? If the guitar is presently set up as a regular fretted instrument, there is that need, but after a proper fretless setup... it becomes effortless.
What for? a 7 string set is the same as a .011, a .012, or even a .013 without the E4 string (depending on the 1st string gauge).
To play in tune, press the strings over the fret lines and not between them as one does on a fretted instrument... (not sure if you got that already).

Hope this helps...

_... ah, e deita fora essas cordas..._


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