# Video: Just Intonation - Equal temperament guitar chord comparison plus some JI music



## ixlramp (Aug 17, 2011)

WolfV11 posted this on the unfretted.com forum ...



"The chord labeled by the video as 'Super Major' is actually a 'Half-Flat Fourth' 21/16! My mistake!

This video demonstrates the sounds of Just Intonation Chords compared with Equal Temperament Chords. The opening is a piece of mine called "They, Who Wander" it uses a fretless guitar and an acoustic with open tunings in 11-limit Just Intonation.

The comparisons were done on an acoustic guitar by tuning the strings to various open chords.

The ending riff is a 12 tone electric guitar tuned open to a Half Minor Chord and uses some of the frets which most closely approximate the JI intervals. It's not pure, but gives you an idea of what this chord could do in modern music."


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 17, 2011)

While interesting, I really don't see this as much more. The implications in the beginning where the author tries to say 'this intonation is better because physics says so' made me chuckle a little, as if any intonation is better or worse. I would say more the intonation you use is unimportant, how well you use it is what matters. 


The whole 'more stable notes' I am not sure I desire more stability, seems like it would increase the static level of a chord.


----------



## EJA (Aug 18, 2011)

Didn't expect one of my vids to make it here on its own! Thanks Mat!

As far as what's better, and what's worse...well maybe I was a little over zealous about some of the aspects of JI in that video. 


That said, listening--especially to the major chord--you can hear a distinct beating due to the clashing of the tempered major third, and the harmonic partial from the fundamental. 

Our 12 Tone system was developed to try and get as close to these harmonics while still retaining the ability to change keys. Seeing as the technology around back then was very limited, 12 TET is very easily understood in this context. However....

If we have the technology to take a picture of a check on a phone and have it deposited in the bank, why in the world are we not using such innovations to propel music forward? And not just in the means of 'look at how much storage room I have on my synthesizer now!' but in the means of having notes that are tuned according to the harmonic series.

Jon Catler said something to me years ago at one of the fretless guitar festivals. We were talking about fretless guitars and the like and I said something to the effect of:

"I'm not really into this microtonal stuff" (which was very true. Up until about six months ago I hadn't really given it a serious inquiry.)

Jon had said "Well there already there...not much you can do about them."

He's right. The only harmonic we truly have a note for on the piano, or on the frets of a guitar, is the octave. The next harmonic is slightly sharper than what we're used to (by ever so much) and the harmonic right before the forth fret is much flatter than what we have a fret for. As soon as I tuned an open chord to those harmonics, I instantly fell in love with the solidness, depth, and clarity of the harmonic series major chord. I find tempered chords to be a bit...curdled.

After that harmonic, we find the one just past the third fret, which is basically a new note. (30 cents flatter than our minor seventh) and is a chord I'm going to demonstrate in a future video.

The cool thing is once you reach the 11th and 13th harmonics, you find natural quarter tones! These aren't made up concepts, they are true notes found in a vibrating string, and we hear them all when a single note is played; just as we technically see all the colors of the spectrum in white light. Why not learn to use these notes? There is a complete scale within the overtone series, let's use it!

Just how many of us have learned to tell the difference between sloppy playing, good tone, the difference between a 25.5 inch scale at F# and a 30" etc. Why can't we also do the same for the notes in the harmonic series? You can't change physics, those notes are all there...waiting to be used.

Believe me when I say that I was one of the biggest skeptics about microtonality and the like. Since I decided to learn about something and be a bit open minded to the possibility that there might be another way, I look at music entirely different now--and cringe when I hear a major chord on a piano! That beating drives me nuts 

ehh, I'm done ranting.


I plan on a doing a few other videos to demonstrate similar concepts, and more importantly the song writing applications of Just Intonation.


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 18, 2011)

Cool stuff, I do find it interesting, and as you admit to be slightly over zealous it is all good . Better find a way to tune your piano better though so you don't implode or something. Overall I am far too lazy to try stuff like this, not against it, just lazy.


----------



## jymellis (Aug 18, 2011)

awesome! time to learn and abuse something else \m/

wonder how it would sound using both in one song. say one on rhythym guitar. then the other on solo guitars.


----------



## EJA (Aug 18, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Cool stuff, I do find it interesting, and as you admit to be slightly over zealous it is all good . Better find a way to tune your piano better though so you don't implode or something. Overall I am far too lazy to try stuff like this, not against it, just lazy.




I'm not out to prove anyone wrong with this stuff. Nor am I necessarily looking to put down things like 12TET (all my other videos are 12 notes per octave). 

I actually have some software for retuning synthesizers to get JI piano sounds, so I have some relief from the regular tuning 





jymellis said:


> awesome! time to learn and abuse something else \m/
> 
> wonder how it would sound using both in one song. say one on rhythym guitar. then the other on solo guitars.



I've been working on such things, so stay tuned!

The results of that kind of stuff can vary depending on what notes you allow in. If you simply take everything we're used to and tune it to the harmonics, the difference results in some more stability (particularly when lots of distortion is involved). However it all has to be done on guitars that are refretted to these notes (the result of which usually looks like a game of tetris on a guitar) or play fretless. If you want to have complex chord modulations and key changes, you probably will need more than 12 notes. 

The best analogy I can come up with for Just Intonation is a tree. The trunk is the fundamental note, and everything else grows from it and has a connection to it. 

Equal temperament is more like a city, designed for compatibility and ease of transport (though that all depends on what city you're in!)

If you want different keys, you need to grow a whole new 'tree'. For a basic I IV V progression, you'll need the overtones of each root. Say G, C, D. The most basic form will give you 12 different notes, but if you allow in more harmonics, you end up with 15 new notes. If you want more stuff going on melodically, you might end up with 24 plus. There's no limit.

If you allow harmonics we're not used to hearing as notes--say the 11th and 13th harmonics--the result will be strange simply because you're not used to hearing them. They change the sound of the music entirely once their brought in. It can be intimidating at first. I'll be the first to admit that.


One of the largest problems Just Intonation faces is keeping up with the inconceivable mass of music that exists currently in 12 Tone Equal Temperament. We all listen to iPods with 12 Tone music, pretty much everything most people in the west have ever heard as music is based on 12 tone, and everytime you turn on the radio, television, or see a movie, you're hearing 12 tone music. So it is no wonder that different tuning systems sound strange and 'out of tune'.

All tuning systems, 12 tone, equal, Just, etc. are acquired tastes. 12 is the flavor of the west and has been for a while.


----------



## Trespass (Aug 18, 2011)

What EJA is saying is basically correct: Due to the nature of the harmonic series, just/"pure" intonation produces a far richer sound (assuming it lines up with the harmonic series). 

If you ever have the opportunity, definitely see Ligeti's Lux Aeterna performed with a professional choir in a great hall. Depending on the space, and the fact that the singers are most likely going to intonate more purely, you can hear more notes than the 16 voices produce. The reason for this (as was given in the pre-concert talk when I saw it) was the notes in partials being reinforced by other partials, possible due to singer's intonation. [/Very tried, rambling]

http://www.michaelharrison.com/


----------



## jymellis (Aug 18, 2011)

EJA said:


> I
> 
> However it all has to be done on guitars that are refretted to these notes (the result of which usually looks like a game of tetris on a guitar) .



doesnt vai have a jem fretted accordingly?


----------



## EJA (Aug 18, 2011)

Trespass said:


> What EJA is saying is basically correct: Due to the nature of the harmonic series, just/"pure" intonation produces a far richer sound (assuming it lines up with the harmonic series).
> 
> If you ever have the opportunity, definitely see Ligeti's Lux Aeterna performed with a professional choir in a great hall. Depending on the space, and the fact that the singers are most likely going to intonate more purely, you can hear more notes than the 16 voices produce. The reason for this (as was given in the pre-concert talk when I saw it) was the notes in partials being reinforced by other partials, possible due to singer's intonation. [/Very tried, rambling]
> 
> Just Intonation the Harmonic Piano: Michael Harrison composer and pianist



I hadn't heard of Harrison before--will have to check his stuff out. Thanks for sharing.

When a perfectly tuned harmony is sounded, there are extra notes that occur. "Difference Tones" as they're outlined in much of the literature on Just Intonation. The result can be quite eerie depending on how it's done. Kind of like having an invisible bass player.



jymellis said:


> doesnt vai have a jem fretted accordingly?



Vai uses true temperament necks
True Temperament - Fretting systems

It's more accurate according to 12 Tone--but still not Just Intonation.

True temperament fretting systems essentially turn the guitar into a piano: ensuring that all notes are of the same value (or as close as possible) so there are no deviations. 

So are the notes more in tune on such an instrument?
Yes compared to 12 Tone Equal Temperament
No compared to the overtone series.

On the True Temperament site, they make this claim

"True Temperament does not imply Just Intonation. It is physically impossible to implement Just Intonation in more than one specific key (and its relative minor)"

This is a quarter of a half truth.

Just Intonation Can be done on a fretted guitar to a certain degree--it is by no means impossible, just difficult.

You end up with frets that look like this:








This is a good example of how it is possible to have JI in different keys. Catler explains very well how it's always a trade-off though. You can never have EVERYTHING.

But everything in the music world is a trade off. There is no ultimate instrument--and there is no ultimate tuning system.


----------



## SirMyghin (Aug 18, 2011)

That last neck that starts with a V looks like it would be a pain to play . I think fretless is probably the best way to go about this stuff, but you would obviously need to train your ears very very well to pull it off.


----------



## EJA (Aug 18, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> That last neck that starts with a V looks like it would be a pain to play . I think fretless is probably the best way to go about this stuff, but you would obviously need to train your ears very very well to pull it off.



Oh absolutely! With fretless, you can only be as microtonal as your ears are trained to be. If you don't understand what the pitches are supposed to sound like, it ain't happenin!


----------



## anne (Aug 18, 2011)

The JI chords sound so much cleaner, though the individual notes feel out of tune to someone who's so used to ET. Gonna run far away from this, though -- if I listen to any more I'm going to have to chuck all my instruments...


----------



## EJA (Aug 18, 2011)

anne said:


> The JI chords sound so much cleaner, though the individual notes feel out of tune to someone who's so used to ET. Gonna run far away from this, though -- if I listen to any more I'm going to have to chuck all my instruments...



Yes...When I get into conversations with some people about this stuff, I usually encourage them NOT to get into it as it may ruin music for them! 

Many guitarists implement these pitches in their playing without even knowing it. Either through harmonics, or by bending. Very few players practice bending with a tuner and go by their ear. If you want to bring these harmonies into your music and playing, do it by bending! Just bend before the note you want as the harmony and bend till you hear the version of the note that doesn't beat against the stable note.


Many songs out there utilize some JI concepts without the artists probably even knowing.


The harmonic in the bass part here is a good example


That's a 5/4 of D (I think.....) which is an F# -14 cents


----------



## ElRay (Aug 18, 2011)

The thing that gets me about a lot of the JI "talk" is that you have folks talking about the "naturalness" or that "this intonation is better because physics says so" to everybody else, and then argue among themselves whether an interval should be 3:2, 7:4, 23:16, 48:32, ..., 325:216, etc. If the intervals are based in nature, or the physics, it should just be a number. There should be no argument, tweaking, etc. to make things fit. That's way, way, too easy to create data that isn't there. I remember in grad school that we had a data set we had to model. One team ran a global minimization on the data, completely oblivious to the fact that their numbers indicated that the subject had to be bigger than a whale. Other kept adding parameters, again oblivious to the fact that any sufficiently complex model will fit any finite set of random data.

The concept of JI, I completely understand; it's the implementation that too often seems "voodoo" or "SWAG" (systematic wild-assed guessing).

I wonder how much of this is what "sounds right". Basically the auditory equivalent of "just enough pepper". Perceptually I can relate to this, because when my daughter plays a minor 2nd on the piano, I "hear" an inverted Major 7th.

Ray


----------



## ixlramp (Aug 18, 2011)

One can get a good taste of playing Just Intonation on a normal fretted guitar by using this tuning:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2530509-post6.html

Essentially most modern-world musicians are artists who have complete freedom in all aspects of music except pitch, which is limited to 12 equally spaced pitches per perfect octave (12ET), and these pitches are being anchored ever more precisely to A4=440Hz, for example auto-tuned vocals in bad pop music. Whatever 12ET scale a musician chooses it's always within those fixed 12 pitches, i think our ears get fatigued by this and need variety. It's like being forced to use only 12 particular beats per minute between 70bpm and 140bpm, or a visual artist limited to 12 colours. Excellent art can of course be made within a particular bizarre limitation, most of my favourite music is in 12 equal temperament. I'm advocating the revolution of freedom of pitch, infinite new pitches and an infinite potential of subtle pitch systems that creativity can craft.

There's a lot of bad microtonal music out there which puts people off. Here's some awesome electro-dub beats in Just Intonation by my friend Jacky Ligon: Jacky Ligon - Other Time by Xen-Arts on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

One cool thing about listening to microtonal music is that when you come back to 12ET you appreciate it more and perceive it freshly, it's like having your first holiday abroad and then returning.

Just a note about the so called 'True temperament' guitar necks, they are pitch systems which are actually 'Well Temperament'. Essentially it's 12ET with each pitch tweaked slightly by up to 10 cents so that each key of, for example, major has it's own character, some keys more Just, some more dissonant, but with the ability to modulate to any key. Hence the tuning-theory joke in 'Spinal Tap', something like "D minor is the saddest key of all", in Well Temperament D minor may well be the saddest key of all, but in 12ET all minor keys sound the same


----------



## ixlramp (Aug 18, 2011)

ElRay said:


> The thing that gets me about a lot of the JI "talk" is that you have folks talking about the "naturalness" or that "this intonation is better because physics says so" to everybody else, and then argue among themselves whether an interval should be 3:2, 7:4, 23:16, 48:32, ..., 325:216, etc.



Yes i totally agree, and the 'Tuning list' Yahoo group is the very worst example of this. No one pitch system is 'better' than any other, the key is to be free and artistic with pitch and realise that anything goes as long as it sounds good. I appreciate 12ET more now I've studied microtonality for 3 years 

A good example of the artistic non-ANALytical approach is the non-octave forum: nonoctave.com: forum


----------



## ixlramp (Aug 18, 2011)

So here's an instant way to play the Just Intonation chords on a normal guitar ...

Choose 3 consecutive strings and retune them to play an open major triad in 12ET. For 3 strings in fourths this means low string +1 semitone, middle string unchanged and high string -2 semitones.

Retuning the middle string to a Just major third:
Play the low string 5th harmonic and middle string 4th harmonic and let those harmonics ring together. Slightly detune the middle string until it's 4th harmonic is in tune with the low string 5th harmonic.

Tuning the high string to a Just fifth:
The Just Intonation fifth is actually very close (2 cents) to the 12ET fifth. Play the low string 3rd harmonic and the high string 2nd harmonic and let those ring together. It's probably already very close to being in tune but retune the high string until it's 2nd harmonic is in tune with the low string 3rd harmonic.

You can now play the Just major triad on the open strings.

Retuning the middle string to a Just minor third:
Play the low string 6th harmonic and middle string 5th harmonic and let those harmonics ring together. Slightly detune the middle string until it's 5th harmonic is in tune with the low string 6th harmonic.

You can now play the Just minor triad on the open strings.

The chords have a very resonant sustain. Because some of the harmonics are now exactly in tune, energy now flows between the strings through resonance, you can almost hear it doing so. This doesn't happen in 12ET.


----------



## ixlramp (Aug 18, 2011)

Jon Catlers Just Intonation fretboard played in the video above ...
















From here: 62 Tone Just


----------



## Overtone (Aug 18, 2011)

The true temperament fret system is abailable in several different schemes... They are all explainednon the site. I like the results very much... The sound of the same note across different positions is so uniform, and the high frets sound great with open strings in a chord. I really dont have the ear to be troubled by my normal frets, but this sounds even better. I hope the company takes off so it can be a little more affordable. If i dint have other stuff going on gearwise maybe i could make it happen, but as things are, not right now.


----------



## Explorer (Aug 18, 2011)

Am glad which play system common type with muzikans other. Muzik as equal to an effort collaborative means if am playing in langauge different from norm, not able communicate effectively muzikan other with langauge different from the mine. 

Whereas when we all play using the same system, I don't get marginalized by only being able to play with a small subset of musicians, or forced to continually start from scratch. 

Is idea interest hold, about which though no want put me outside perimeter when want me itself do work with other muzikan.

----

One more thing: I love when both language systems and temperings are upheld as great examples of design superiority. I'm sure that to some, watching a performance of "Romeo and Juliet" in Esperanto adds some ineffable quality, but I think English gets it across pretty well. Similarly, I'm sure that different temperings would make music just that much better... but equal temperament gets it across pretty well.


----------



## EJA (Aug 18, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Am glad which play system common type with muzikans other. Muzik as equal to an effort collaborative means if am playing in langauge different from norm, not able communicate effectively muzikan other with langauge different from the mine.
> 
> Whereas when we all play using the same system, I don't get marginalized by only being able to play with a small subset of musicians, or forced to continually start from scratch.
> 
> ...



What's wrong with new ideas?

I do understand what you're trying to say, but what's wrong with exploring more of the pitch spectrum?

With just intonation, we're not necessarily doing anything new anyway. As I said earlier, those pitches are already there whenever you hear a note being played. Equal temperament tries to best approximate those notes, JI seeks to actually use them.


----------



## Kr1zalid (Aug 19, 2011)

Explorer said:


> ....Muzik.........
> 
> I'm sure that to some, watching a performance of "Romeo and Juliet" in Esperanto adds some ineffable quality, but I think English gets it across pretty well.....


 
Did you ever realised that you "spoke" a Malay word here? 

Muzik in Malay = Music in English

My interest in microtonal stuffs grews everyday after reading and hearing much stuffs from this forums lately thanks to ixlramp (maybe others?) for posting more and more of these things.


----------



## Overtone (Aug 19, 2011)

Can you post some good jt songs for us to hear? The proof is in the sound, not the logic.


----------



## EJA (Aug 19, 2011)

Overtone said:


> Can you post some good jt songs for us to hear? The proof is in the sound, not the logic.



Sure thing!

First some blues:

I recently saw Jon Catler and his band 'Willie Mcblind' at a free concert in NYC for a lunch crowd. They never said what they were doing was microtonal (though Catler made a quick reference to the 13th harmonic in between one of the songs). The entire plaza loved it, it was obvious. No one seemed freaked out by strange harmonies and chords. Jon Catler has spent enough time working with this stuff to understand all the implications JI and Microtonality can have. 

I'd be willing to bet someone like Steve Vai has knocked more than a few guitars out of tune messing with whammy bars--especially when he was just starting off. What if he was discouraged by the initial results and said "Eh...these tremolo systems only knock my guitar out of tune. It's impossible!"

64-Tone Just Intonation Blues 


12 Tone Ultra Plus Guitar system blues


Of course there are more than enough 'strange' intervals in Just Intonation--but you don't have to use those. Just like you don't have to use Diminished and Augmented chords for every chord progression. JI has to be studied and learned, just like anything else.

Some Partch!

I hesitate with reffering Harry Partch because his compositional style has to be liked from the start. Partch was not interested in Just Intonation and microtones 'just cause' but as he found out, it worked with the type of music he was trying to play. So if Partch never discovered Just Intonation, his music still would have been strange to the ears. Always keep that in mind when listening to Partch.

That said, here is one of Partch's more approachable pieces performed by the Kronos Quartet.
The first section is my all time favorite microtonal piece. In fact it was the one that continuously called to me to study it.



You can find a few different versions of "Two Studies.." There's the old Partch recording (you can find it on iTunes). The quality is pretty old, but in some ways it works with the piece. 
There's also John Schneider's version on his compilation album "Just West Coast" that one is also fantastic.

I'd love to put more Partch here....but I'm pretty sure the reaction. Partch is an experience worth discovering on your own. It took me a while to listen to his music and fully 'get' it.


Lou Harrison

Here is a guitar piece of his, played appropriately

There are soooo many people playing on Harrison pieces on youtube on regular equal temperament. I don't understand why as Harrison didn't even want to write for guitar until someone had built one with an interchangeable fingerboard so he could write for different tuning systems.



These next two Harrison ones miiiight not be in Just. I'm only assuming so as Harrison did favor Just, and these are both played on instruments which can easily use Just pitches.




Dante Rosati




this one is a little weird..



Edward Powell




I'm not sure if this is JI...but it is microtonal




I don't hold a candle to any of these guys, but I'll put one of my JI improv pieces up.
The First Strand | Eric Jackson


----------



## Explorer (Aug 19, 2011)

EJA said:


> What's wrong with new ideas?
> 
> ...Equal temperament tries to best approximate those notes, JI seeks to actually use them.



There's absolutely nothing wrong with new ideas, or exploration of them. I'm reacting to some of the rhetoric about it being better. If "better" has any kind of scoring rubric, then I am suggesting that "simplicity in construction," "lower cost" (like having frets which are straight and not convoluted/irregular/massively custom and expensive) and "being able to play with the average musician we're likely to meet" should be used as metrics for better.

I just took a glance at the previous posts, and there is that "better" argument. I have no problem with people being overzelous, or even just zealous. I have absolutely no problem with fretless instruments, or exploring other systems. I'm just bringing another viewpoint to the table.


----------



## EJA (Aug 19, 2011)

Explorer said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with new ideas, or exploration of them. I'm reacting to some of the rhetoric about it being better. If "better" has any kind of scoring rubric, then I am suggesting that "simplicity in construction," "lower cost" (like having frets which are straight and not convoluted/irregular/massively custom and expensive) and "being able to play with the average musician we're likely to meet" should be used as metrics for better.


 
Simplicity, as are terms such as 'better' or 'worse' are always subjective.


In fact, Darwin could have dropped his entire line of work and basis of the theory of evolution simply because that concept is more complex than saying "the magic man in the sky snapped his fingers and poof it's here" <-- that is a simple explanation and one that, based on statistics (only 45% of Americans believe evolution to be a fact as reported in Michael Shermer's book _The Believing Brain_) is more widely held. Therefore we shouldn't teach it in school as the majority of people don't believe it to be a viable explanation for life. Clearly it is too complex for the average-uneducated-individual.

-back to music-
Being able to play with the average musician would be fine--but we're talking predominantly about western musicians. What about Indian classical? Or Arabic? or Turkish? Many of the temperaments in these regions are actually being rendered 'obsolete' not due to their sound, but for keeping up with the industrial and capitalistic reasons. So we should let 'simplicity' and the ability to 'sell more' be the deciding factor in what is better? By that rule, the majority of pop music is then 'better' than a lot of progressive rock/metal/jazz/fusion etc. Simplicity in construction would also deem fanned fretting systems, most ERGs, devices such as Floyd Roses, sustainer pickups, electric guitars, amp modeling, drum sampling, midi controllers, and a good ton of guitar effects as being much more complicated in construction and maintenance than a simple classical guitar--with no truss rod as this would ease simplicity in manufacturing and would cut costs.

A fellow teacher at my guitar shop loooves fender telecasters and strats. For him, and the music he plays, it works best. His guitars, for him, are _better_ than if he had my 7 strings and fretless guitars. That doesn't mean that his telecaster is better than my carvin dc727. 

The same can be said in this situation about microtones. My colleague does not use them in his music--however it's not necessarily because he doesn't like it, but because he's never experienced it. In fact, he's heard me play a few 'harmonic 7th chords' (7:4 just ratio) and has commented on how much more he likes that--microtonal--chord than the standard 12 notes. He seems genuinely interested in these possibilities, and this is a guy who just listens to Bob Dylan and The Beatles.


From a 'better' perspective, Just Intonation can indeed be better for certain musicians, such as myself. Most people--never hearing about this--will never truly know if this is a good fit for them and conservative views that we should just stay where we are and not rock the boat will only keep these things hidden.

For me, the stability of harmony and chords in Just tuning is very important for the way I want to express music. Also the added bonus of new notes, and exploring something truly unique is essential.
That said, I still play plenty of 12 tone music, and I still listen to plenty of it. 

I'm not labelling 12TET as inferior--in fact, if we had the technology we do today back when 12tet was proposed, it probably wouldn't have caught on the way it did.

Also, as is the case with everything, when someone tries something new, and others cling to the standards and their bulk of size as indicative of inherent truth (labelling the new form as too 'strange' or 'scary' or 'bad') one might develop a complex.


----------



## Overtone (Aug 19, 2011)

I checked out a few of the vids. Thoughts...

Blues guy - cool stuff. Given the precedent in blues its hard not to think of this as sounding discordant, but it gives the music a cool coloration and makes a new feel in a genre where thats difficult to do. 

Kronos quartet.. Awesome piece. Interesting music and it sounds good. Again there is an interesting color to it, and because of the piece the temperament seems less out of place than in the blues songs, but i still notice this weird quality that comes through in a different way. 

First lou harrison vid... No offense to the player but i dont like the way he plays, or at least the way his playing sounds in that vid, so i stopped it quickly. Second vid... Great piece... This one sounded by far the most harmonious and didnt seem to have a coloration as much as the others. After that i checked out a bit of the bald guy but not much. Will try to hit up more later. 

Overall i think this gives me a better impression than the first video did. It definitely brings new colors to the table... I feel like it can bring a sense of darkness and discord without having to resort to the usual methods like ambient samples, out of tune stuff, weird singers, bad production, etc. This is still musical and harmonious. I see something in that regard, but hearing jt as a more harmonious temperament that does a better job than et at sounding natural, balanced and in tune is really difficult for me, maybe due to 27 years of normal western music, save some arabic stuff.


----------



## EJA (Aug 19, 2011)

Overtone said:


> I checked out a few of the vids. Thoughts...
> 
> Blues guy - cool stuff. Given the precedent in blues its hard not to think of this as sounding discordant, but it gives the music a cool coloration and makes a new feel in a genre where thats difficult to do.
> 
> ...



Glad you enjoyed some of it!
It's like trying a new food or learning a new language in some regards.

I highly recommend John Schneider's album _Por Gitaro, Suites for Tuned Guitars_. It's all Lou Harrison guitar compositions, all in Just Intonation. It's on iTunes; it was one of the big turning points for me in microtones and just intonation.

If you liked the blues stuff, I HIGHLY recommend Willie McBlind's album _Bad Thing_. Also on iTunes....they should have a new one commin' out soon as well.


----------



## ixlramp (Aug 19, 2011)

Matthew Grasso


Just guitar






From Matthew Grasso | Guitars


----------



## EJA (Aug 20, 2011)

There's something truly comical about three white guys playing that! Beautiful stuff anyway!

I came across Matthew Grasso's site--he's got some fantastic use of tuning systems.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 20, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> While interesting, I really don't see this as much more. The implications in the beginning where the author tries to say 'this intonation is better because physics says so' made me chuckle a little, as if any intonation is better or worse. I would say more the intonation you use is unimportant, how well you use it is what matters.
> 
> 
> The whole 'more stable notes' I am not sure I desire more stability, seems like it would increase the static level of a chord.


It works the other way too. The consonances become greater, but it makes the dissonances even more tense as well.
There are also multiple different tunings for any given interval, depending on the situation.
For example in your minor chord you used 6/5 for your minor third (which is the "usual" just intonation min3 btw) but there's also 19/16 at 297.5 cents (sounds just about the same as the equal tempered) and the even more stable 7/6 subminor third at 267 cents. (Which you played)

There is no best tuning for any one interval, except based on what you like and what the musical situation is.
A 7/4 minor seventh is stable and resolved while the 16/9 seventh is the type in dominant chords that resolve.

Now I'm not about to jump into just tuning myself but I am very interested in higher equal divisions of the octave, esp. 19 and 31 that at least give better approximations of what we can already glance in 12 and open up intervals not often heard like the 7th, 11th and 13th harmonics.

There's another great thing about pure(r) intervals, they sound loads better on instruments with lots of harmonics and rich sounds.

Like heavily distorted guitars.

Also the closer to just an interval is the lower it can be played without turning into mush.
If you took a piano and tuned it to a just C major scale, you could play a Cmaj chord in the lowest octave and it would still "gel" like a chord should.

One small correction though
The super-major and sub minor chords (or approximations of them) ARE available in tunings other than just such as 19, 22, 31, 34, but you are right in that they are definitely NOT available in 12.



EJA said:


> When a perfectly tuned harmony is sounded, there are extra notes that occur. "Difference Tones" as they're outlined in much of the literature on Just Intonation. The result can be quite eerie depending on how it's done. Kind of like having an invisible bass player.


Whenever two or more frequencies are sounded together, difference tones are created.

The big deal about difference tones in just tuning is that they are in tune with the original notes that caused them. In tempered tunings the the difference tones dissonate to varying degrees with the notes that caused them. The closer the intervals are to just, the less the difference tones will interfere.

You know that warbling, you can hear when you play certain intervals?
That's the difference tone(s) you're hearing, in addition to the notes you played on purpose.


----------



## Winspear (Sep 21, 2011)

I've been getting into this idea recently and whilst barely having listened to much microtonal/altered music, just intonation is definitely the sound I desire. I can agree with some of the comments here on regular chords sounding pretty disgusting to my ears most of the time haha, which is odd considering I really haven't heard much of this stuff.
I just don't like the idea of not being able to play all the different keys etc. the way I'm used to, which I think is the greatest thing about the guitar. I guess true temperament fretboards is the closest way to get this lovely static chord sound while retaining the freedom of the guitar?


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 21, 2011)

^Or you could use a different equal temperament with more notes to the octave.

Ivor Darreg - Prelude #2 For 19-Tone Guitar - YouTube


----------



## ixlramp (Sep 21, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> I just don't like the idea of not being able to play all the different keys etc. the way I'm used to, which I think is the greatest thing about the guitar. I guess true temperament fretboards is the closest way to get this lovely static chord sound while retaining the freedom of the guitar?


The true temperament boards are a tuning system known as 'well temperament': small adjustments to 12ET that gives all 12 keys of a scale a certain mood and colour of it's own, some keys are only a little closer to just intonation. Other equal temperaments such as 19EDO, 22EDO, 31EDO etc. can get close to certain just intervals. 24EDO gets very close (within 4 cents) to one rather exotic Arabic-sounding just system that contains many scales, which is why i use it.

However it is possible to design a fretboard to play in a few different keys and precisely in just intonation, we've actually been discussing this over here: A question about frets for just intonation. Retuning such a guitar then creates a different selection of just keys. With a carefully chosen open tuning it can be done with straight frets, meaning your local luthier could build it. It could look something like this:






Some just intervals lose their character with only a slight mistuning, so combining this with a guitars pitch instability of +-4 cents i feel it's well worth going for precise just intonation or something very close (within 4 cents or so).


----------



## EJA (Sep 21, 2011)

Insert completely biased statement: I am utterly non-interested in other equal divisions. 

Whether it's the metal head in me (and the stuff I've been writing lately is anything but metal) or something else, I just can't sacrifice the fifths I'm used to in 12TET and JI.

For those who aren't familiar with this, the 'Pure' fifth is found in the 3rd Harmonic, as a ratio of 3/2. When measured, in cents, it is 702 Cents. In 12 Tone, we have a 5th of 700 Cents.

in a single situation (like power chords) you won't notice the 2 cent difference. You need a GOOD ear for that.

However, when you start going past 9ths, the minus two becomes minus four, minus 8, minus 16 etc.

After 12 Tone, the next logical ET is 19. The thirds are better, I believe the 7ths are nicer, (I'm not terribly sure about 11ths and 13ths...and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, )
The problem with 19 is the fifths. It's not something I'm willing to part with.

After 19, really the next best is 31 which brings in a bunch of new intervals and finer tuned pitches. But again, the fifths suffer.

The next is 53....yea, you play a guitar with 53 frets per octave.

I know Ron Sword might come and shake a stick at me and rave about 16 tone or something, and he's got a lot of cool stuff on Youtube showing elements of these temperaments. I really would like to hear some more music from him--maybe he'll convince me otherwise about ETs other than 12.

JI is where it's at for me. Unfortunately in a fretted context, it's kinda tough. One of the solutions then is slide guitar-which by the way has A LOT of potential for Just. Anyone looking to jump into JI should try it out on slide.

Another solution is Jon Catler's 12 Tone Ultra Plus guitar system. It keeps all the standard notes, but adds 7th, 11th, and 13th harmonics. I admit to being skeptical myself of this system, but I've had the opportunity to play it and...it's a phenomenal instrument capable of sustaining into the future of tuning and music. I shall be getting one for myself very soon. A 7 string as well.

The other solution is Fretless Guitar. And it's something I'm primarily focusing on.
Yes, chords are tough, but you're not going to find any other system that affords such flexibility in terms of keys. I can play any ratio based on any fundamental on a fretless guitar. To do that on a fretted guitar would be impossible. 

Also, I am very drawn to the fretless for its sound and vibrato capabilities.

Fretted Just Systems always require a sacrifice of certain pitches. I've heard the point of accuracy raised before and that fretted instruments are better in this case...but they really aren't. A stringed instrument, flat out, will never be 100% accurate. There are too many factors at play. If it's pitch accuracy you want, play a synthesizer with a computer to do all the math for you and measure you out to the farthest decimal point.

As to changing keys, well at first that seems complex. The general thought of Just Intonation (and was mine for quite some time) is that you can only have a single 1/1 (Fundamental or Root). That is not true. If you desire the flexibility of a specific chord progression: I IV V for example, you build the harmonic series for the root of each chord.

The hard part with this is that to create the type of music you're accustomed to with JI, you will need more than 12 notes. 


Also, another very crucial point with JI and a fretted guitar is the matter of what your tuning the open strings to. On fretless sometimes I leave it in a 12 tone context and rarely use the open strings. I'll alter the pitch of some strings based on the key or song as I desire. 

On a fretted guitar, you will have to place a comma (a variation of pitch lets say under 30 cents) somewhere in the tuning. Jon Catler places his comma between the D and G strings....(I thiiiiinnnnk....) If you play the two open strings together, the sound is pretty disgusting, hence the many split frets. A Standard tuning of E A D G B E will require a comma somewhere, other wise you very well might end up with two different Es.

A good solution is to use different open tunings. This solves the fret issues, but might create more player issues such as learning the guitar all over again (not to mention all the new JI notes!)

If this thing were easy, everyone would be doing it. Ibanez would be unloading 8 string guitars with JI frets--and it would be in black.



And to all the doubters out there...I was once in your camp as well


----------



## Winspear (Sep 21, 2011)

Thanks for these posts  I find it hard to take in some of this stuff because my brain is so used to the western system, and I find it hard to think outside of the notes. I'm beginning to understand though and hopefully can experiment with this sometime when I have some cash to spare  

Here is a really good website on microtonal http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/MicrotonalTheory


----------



## EJA (Sep 21, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> Thanks for these posts  I find it hard to take in some of this stuff because my brain is so used to the western system, and I find it hard to think outside of the notes. I'm beginning to understand though and hopefully can experiment with this sometime when I have some cash to spare
> 
> Here is a really good website on microtonal http://xenharmonic.wikispaces.com/MicrotonalTheory



Glad to to hear that you're interested in this!

Don't feel pressured to spend money, get a slide and explore!

Here's why a lot of it sounds strange to western ears:

We hear harmonics in everything. When you strike a note on a piano, pluck a string, or sing...or even speak. A single note has, within it, the spectrum of all the harmonics.

Think of it like white light. The color is a product of red, blue, green, etc. 

The spectrum of harmonics is infinte...there is no end. Of course that doesn't mean those who are into JI want to use ALL of them...cause you can't. So instead you set a limit. If you only go up to the Third Harmonic, you're using a 3-Limit System. Only going up to the 5th Harmonic yields a 5-Limit System, etc.

The Limit does not necessarily judge how many notes you can have. Harry Partch had an 11 Limit system, and his famous scale had 43 notes. Jon Catler uses 13 Limit and he uses a 64 Tone Scale.

It's also worth noting that only prime numbers can be keepers of the Limit. Even numbers can be reduced down.

i.e. the 10th Harmonic can be divided by two which shows its origin is 5.
the 9th Harmonic can be divided by 3, therefore it's of 3 Limit Origin.

(I understand that Harry Partch used Odd numbers for limits...but seeing as how 15 can be reduced to 5, in a 5 limit system, you can get the 15th harmonic.)

All the music you've heard, for most of your entire life, and this is true for 98% of the people on this forum, is based on a 5 Limit system.

Our 12 Notes are an approximation of notes found going up to the 5th harmonic. The pitches have been altered, or tempered, to fit into an equal arena so we can change keys, modulate, have ease of melody, and compatible harmony for every root. This was done, mostly, because of the technology at hand while this was being cemented down (Bach's time).

Just Intonation not only seeks to keep the pure harmonic pitches in tune (which aren't equal and therefore cause difficulty) but also to expand the Limit.

7 Limit is a good place to start for many people.

12 TET gets close, but not close enough.

In acapella groups however, we are used to hearing the 7th harmonic in terms of the dominant 7th chord. So it's not completely foreign to us in the west.

What is foreign about the 7 Limit is when we borrow 7th harmonics from other fundamentals. When this is done, we get new chords that have never been heard before. So in a sense we are half way familiar with the 7 Limit system.

The 11th harmonic is a note completely alien to us in the west. It lies directly in between two "normal" notes. When you bring the Limit up to this, you're really going places most people haven't heard before--it can be very hard at first to use this interval.

The 13th is also quite foreign and similar to 11 in some ways. I feel it's a more consonant pitch than 11. Both have their uses.

Keep in mind, these aren't concepts that someone made up. The 7th, 11th, and 13th harmonics exist whether you want them to or not. There in every string you play, every word you speak. It's physics. It's nature.

I am one of many people who feel it is only a natural progression for humans to include higher and higher harmonics into our music.

Ancient Greece saw a 3-Limit System
Pythagoras

After that we have a 5-Limit System
Bach, Mozart, Beethoven

Recently the 7-Limit is making its appearance through barbershop quartets and other forms of music involving instruments not restricted to pitch.

It's only a matter of time till 11 and 13 become important.

I don't see a progression beyond 13 for quite some time.
The 17th harmonic (17/16) is very close to a half step...so it's not a radically new note like 11/8 or 13/8. So much can be done anyway, and so much is yet to be done anyway, with 7, 11, and 13....


Back to the original point. Since a lot of JI music and musicians delve into 11 and 13, you have to realize that the majority of outside people trying to listen are used to their ears only accepting the 5th harmonic and its harmonic uses. So it's understandable how people might not find some of the more complex JI pitches enjoyable just yet. But I assure you, with proper use, the ear adapts, and the ear learns to hear those higher members. And it can be done without requiring everyone to sit and 'tune' their ears. It is actually a lot easier, and more natural, than you'd think.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 21, 2011)

EJA said:


> Insert completely biased statement: I am utterly non-interested in other equal divisions.
> 
> Whether it's the metal head in me (and the stuff I've been writing lately is anything but metal) or something else, I just can't sacrifice the fifths I'm used to in 12TET and JI.
> 
> ...


I barely notice that the 19tet fifths are different, but those nicer 3rds really stick out. The sevens are nicer, though you only get a poor match for 11 and sadly isn't one at all for 13.

I agree that for guitars I'd top out at 31 (I truly can't hear the mistuning of the fifths in this one), no way I'm going past that.
There's also 34 but 31 matches more of the harmonics I'm interested in-and it requires slightly less frets.

I agree that 53 is just nuts for guitar 
But in its defense it makes 5 limit harmonies nearly just.

I'm going to be getting in on just guitar as well-I loves me some 7 limit intervals.

In a way I'm kinda on the other side of the coin as you I'm willing to give up perfect tuning for modulation since I like to use many kinds of chords on many different roots. I'd like to continue that since it's my style, but I do really want harmony to be significantly smoother than it is in 12.


----------



## EJA (Sep 22, 2011)

The other thing that turns me off to other equal temperaments is the compatibility issues.

One of the things I like about the 12 Tone Ultra Plus system and Fretless Guitar is that I can still play 12 TET. I can't do that on a 19/31 tone guitar.

If tomorrow everyone switched to 19 tone, I could still play along with a fretless and still play purely tuned pitches.

But this is my own little bias. I have heard some wild things in other temperaments. 31 especially! But as Harry Partch was content with never exceeding the 11th, I am content with seeking only instruments that have supreme flexibility.


----------



## Winspear (Sep 22, 2011)

I am definitely getting a slide (been wanting one anyway) but I am not confident enough on my ability to intonate 12TET on a fretless/slide, let alone manage to get these intervals right haha! I hope to convert my RG7321 fretboard to..something. When I get my new guitar and have some more cash. Until then I'll try to play around, gain a better understanding of this and know what I wish to do.

When I said I can't grasp a lot of this because I'm used to the western notes, I was actually not refering to the sound of it, which I am starting to enjoy  I just mean I find it hard to learn about because I'm not even entirely confident reading about normal intervals and harmonics let alone this stuff haha! (Although I understand the concept and construction of scales entirely, it just takes me a while). I'm also familiar with the harmonic pattern within a note, but never really thought about it before.

Something just popped into my head. I've always thought powerchords sounded a _whole_ lot better in drop tuning. I presume this is because I drop tune by ear and happen to meet an _actual_ perfect fifth, which of course transposes fine up the straight frets. Am I right in thinking this isn't possible with 4th tuning, and is the reason why I can never get a normal shaped powerchord to sound that nice - because the frets aren't in the right place relatively?


----------



## ixlramp (Sep 22, 2011)

If you tune an interval by ear by searching for the most harmonious sound you will tune to the just version of that interval, so when you drop tune by ear, the interval between the lowest 2 strings will be 702 cents instead of the 12ET 700 cents (all notes on the bottom string will then be 2 cents flat of 12ET). However the just fourth and just fifth (498 cents and 702 cents) are only 2 cents = 1/50th of a semitone away from the 12ET versions at 500 cents and 700 cents, a difference in pitch only just detectable by ear and similar in size to the inherent pitch instability of a fretted note.
You can get a good taste of just intonation on a normal fretted guitar this way (see whole thread for detail): http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2530509-post6.html


----------



## EJA (Sep 22, 2011)

ixlramp said:


> If you tune an interval by ear by searching for the most harmonious sound you will tune to the just version of that interval, so when you drop tune by ear, the interval between the lowest 2 strings will be 702 cents instead of the 12ET 700 cents (all notes on the bottom string will then be 2 cents flat of 12ET). However the just fourth and just fifth (498 cents and 702 cents) are only 2 cents = 1/50th of a semitone away from the 12ET versions at 500 cents and 700 cents, a difference in pitch only just detectable by ear and similar in size to the inherent pitch instability of a fretted note.
> You can get a good taste of just intonation on a normal fretted guitar this way (see whole thread for detail): http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/2530509-post6.html



Great method!


Another favorite tuning of mine to get access to JI pitches on a standard 12 tone fretted guitar is to tune one or two strings to a just pitch.


Here's a good way to get some 7 Limit magic at your fingertips.

Find the 7th Harmonic on the Low E string (it should lay somewhere in between the third fret and the standard position marker for the 3rd position)
Double check on a tuner to make sure you've got it right. The ringing harmonic should show (if the string is tuned to accurately to an E) a note that wants to be 'D' but is too flat.

That harmonic is the 7/4 ratio: the gateway to 7 Limit.

Now play a D on your B string at the third fret.(2nd String, not the Low B on a 7)

Tune that fretted note down until it matches the 7th harmonic on the E string.

You have now lowered the B by approx. 31 Cents.

This note goes by many different names depending on who you hear it from. Jon Catler, in his book and during the sessions I've had with him, refers to this as a 'Half Flat'****


Now the fun begins.

Play an open E Dominant 7 Chord with the Retuned B string as the 7th. Try to leave out the third in the voicing (you can of course tune a string to the 5/4 ratio as well, though I find it a bit too clumsy.)

E--0
B--3
G--(4) <- this can reinforce the fifth, a nice choice over the third.
D--2
A--2
E--0

Play this chord with as much distortion as you desire. Still doubt JI and Microtones? 

Tuning this way gives you other voicings, allowing you to play many chord progressions in...let's say 'Partial Just Tuning'

Here's a few others.

Moveable Pure 7 Chord
E-x
B-4
G-x
D-x
A-3
E-1

It may seem like a sparse voicing. Feel free to add the thirds or other octaves and fifths. You may combine it with a major 2nd as well.

Open Position D Pure 7
E-2
B-1
G-2
D-0
A-x
E-x

Other moveable 7 chord
E-3
B-2
G-3
D-1
A-x
E-x


You can also start exploring other applications of the 7 limit.

Here's an A Half Minor Chord
E-0
B-1
G-2
D-2
A-0
E-x

Moveable Half Minor
E-1
B-2
G-3
D-3
A-1
E-x


This is a great way to experience Just pitches with no sacrifice or commitment. Always, always, double check that the note is in tune. Many times you might be out of tune and since your ear is waiting for something new, you may hear a mistuned interval and confuse THAT for Just, so always check!



****Why is it called Half-Flat?
Jon Catler bases his reason for the terminology in his book:
"using A as our fundamental, the note C, a pure minor third above A, is found at 315.6 cents, (ratio 6/5), and the note C#, a pure major third above A, is at 386.3 (ratio 5/4). The difference between C and C# is 70.7 cents, so it makes sense to base our use of sharps on this distinction" (Catler, The Nature of Music, 11).

So if 70.7 cents is our Just distance for sharping or flatting a note. Essentially the area of 31-35 cents then is 'Half-Sharp/Half-Flat'.

For pitches such as 11/8 which lie in a 50 Cents zone, the term "Quartertone sharp/flat" is used.


----------



## ixlramp (Sep 24, 2011)

EJA said:


> ****Why is it called Half-Flat?
> Jon Catler bases his reason for the terminology in his book:
> "using A as our fundamental, the note C, a pure minor third above A, is found at 315.6 cents, (ratio 6/5), and the note C#, a pure major third above A, is at 386.3 (ratio 5/4). The difference between C and C# is 70.7 cents, so it makes sense to base our use of sharps on this distinction" (Catler, The Nature of Music, 11).
> 
> So if 70.7 cents is our Just distance for sharping or flatting a note. Essentially the area of 31-35 cents then is 'Half-Sharp/Half-Flat'.


Aha put like that it makes sense.

Warwick JI basses ...


----------



## ixlramp (Sep 27, 2011)

ixlramp said:


> 24EDO gets very close (within 4 cents) to one rather exotic Arabic-sounding just system that contains many scales


Some detail on this ...

My only interest in 24EDO is that it closely approximates this 13 tone just intoation system:

just interval frequency (root=1)
.............. just interval cents
............................ 24EDO interval cents
......................................... error cents
.................................................. interval name

2/1 ........ 1200 ..... 1200 ..... 0 ..... Octave
64/33 ..... 1147 ..... 1150 ..... 3 ..... Supermajor seventh
11/6 ....... 1049 ..... 1050 ..... 1 ..... Neutral seventh
16/9 ....... 996 ....... 1000 ..... 4 ..... Minor seventh
18/11 ..... 853 ....... 850 ....... 3 ..... Neutral sixth
3/2 ......... 702 ....... 700 ....... 2 ..... Fifth
16/11 ..... 649 ....... 650 ....... 1 ..... Sub fifth
11/8 ....... 551 ....... 550 ....... 1 ..... Super fourth
4/3 ......... 498 ....... 500 ....... 2 ..... Fourth
11/9 ....... 347 ....... 350 ....... 3 ..... Neutral third
9/8 ........ 204 ........ 200 ....... 4 ..... Major second
12/11 ..... 151 ....... 150 ....... 1 ..... Neutral second
33/32 ..... 53 ......... 50 ........ 3 ...... Subminor second
1/1 ......... 0 .......... 0 .......... 0 ...... Unison

From the 13 tones many scales can be created. For a rough guess of how many 7 tone scales: there are 3 seconds and 3 sevenths, 2 fourths and 2 fifths, 1 third and 1 sixth. A total of 3x3x2x2x1x1=36 scales. Each scale has 7 modes (there will be some duplication within the 252 possible modes). Since 24EDO is an Equally Divided Octave like 12ET, it is possible to modulate freely to any of 24 keys.

24EDO is a good one for guitar as it contains 12ET within it and the frets have a reasonable spacing. Also a luthier can re-use the 12ET fret slots when refretting.






Atlansia 24EDO bass ATLANSIA BASS


----------



## twistedblues (Oct 27, 2012)

ixlramp said:


> WolfV11 posted this on the unfretted.com forum ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The video is set to "private" any way for me to watch it?


----------



## ixlramp (Oct 28, 2012)

Hi, i got your message  That video is by member EJA who posted in this thread Sevenstring.org - View Profile: EJA. Since it is private you need to contact him.
His websites:
About
Welcome


----------



## twistedblues (Oct 28, 2012)

Doh!1  just noticed that. thank you for the replies!


----------



## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Oct 28, 2012)

@*EJA*
I'm really impressed with the high quality of your posts and your generosity with information regarding different "tuning methods".

There was a vaguely similar discussion regarding another avenue of tuning recently; A4=440hz.

The strange thing for me is that part of the reason I dedicated time to study music etc. is that I have a strong physical reaction to poor tuning, like when smelling something bad.
It's driven me to strive for accuracy and strong harmonic resolution in my own playing.

The thing with all these different tunings is that they give me a chronic migraine. Just listening to some of the samples provided... For me, microtonal hurts. 

Now I'm curious if anyone else feels the same way?



*leaves to get a paracetemol*


----------



## ixlramp (Oct 30, 2012)

Ryan-ZenGtr- said:


> strong harmonic resolution in my own playing.


Just intonation is perfect for you then, the simpler JI intervals are actually the precise centres of harmony, it's our standard 12 equal temperament which has thirds 16 cents out of tune. 12ET has very well tuned (within 4 cents) fourths and fifths, major seconds and minor sevenths, but thats all.

Quick way to experience JI thirds:

1. Precisely tune 2 adjacent open strings to a 12ET major third.
2. Play the 4th harmonic of the higher string then the 5th harmonic of the lower string, let them ring together, they'll be 2 close pitches but out of tune.
3. Detune the higher string very slightly until those harmonics are in tune.
4. Play open strings for the JI major third.

For the JI minor third tune the 5th harmonic of the higher to the 6th harmonic of the lower.

You may find they sound wrong but also more in tune  

With a JI guitar you don't need a tuner, you can tune using the natural harmonics as above. Just intonation is based on the natural harmonics, often up to the 13th harmonic and beyond.



Some microtonal scales are very subtle and beautifully tuned you may find some scales you like. A few minutes of discomfort is normal even for microtonal enthusiasts, it takes a while to perceive and appreciate a pitch system, the brain acclimatises.


----------

