# Taking Pre mixes to gigs?



## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

so is this feasable?, does it make sense?
will it help with 1) setup time per show? and 2) consistency?
what about helping with soundchecks? (or get something decent going if you dont get any soundchecks?)

I feel like the band know its own sound better than any provided house "soundguy" so is this the way to go?

We could easily take our own mixer or something (we have the full Mac/backingtrack/interface live setup)

thoughts would be appreciated


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

See the Live Vocal Thread  "Knowing your own sound" has nothing to do with live mixing. It has everything to do with compensating for the room and gear being used.
IMO, there's two scenarios: You're either getting in the way of a decent sound guy, or the sound guy and gear are both of low enough quality that it won't matter.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

You're always going to have to adjust the levels at FOH for the room. If you're planning on consistently running a 2-channel to FOH, or you're running off of a splitter to FOH and your own IEM board you should have a preset with all of your gain staging set up, though. You don't wanna be line-checking everything going into your mixer during change over. 


TedEH said:


> You're either getting in the way of a decent sound guy, or the sound guy and gear are both of low enough quality that it won't matter.


IMHO even with a small sound system, a person who knows how to operate it is going to get the most out of it and someone who doesn't is going to keep turning things up until everything sounds like shit. I'd rather be the "quietest" band in a crappy venue and my own sound so it sounds as good as possible over letting some schmuck crank us up and make it sound like assballs but be loud.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

your both constantly assuming the soundguys who come with the venue, would know enough about their job, the room and the gear, to be better at live sound than say we would - when in reality, my local cities "soundguys" HAVENT GOT A FUCKING CLUE


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## TedEH (Apr 23, 2019)

Then the solution is to hire a better sound guy (as in bring one with you). 
I maintain that being on stage is not the place to do front of house sound. You can't perform and mix at the same time, and stage sound does not reflect what the audience hears.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> your both constantly assuming the soundguys who come with the venue, would know enough about their job, the room and the gear, to be better at live sound than say we would - when in reality, my local cities "soundguys" HAVENT GOT A FUCKING CLUE


That's fine, you still can't leave the faders in the same spot for every room. You can't leave every EQ the same for every room. You CAN leave your gain staging setup as long as everyone plugging in to your board has consistent output levels. What sounds good dialed in a small square room that holds 30 people isn't going to sound good in a big rectangular room that holds 200 people. Everything that's going FOH is going to need at least some level/EQ adjustment from room to room. That's why touring bands take sound guys with them. If you could just dial in a preset at your practice spot and have it sound good everywhere, that would be fantastic, but its not reality.
Edit: what is really nice about digital mixer technology is that when do play a room and get it sounding good, you can save that preset to bring up as a starting point for similar rooms/sound systems, or for when you play that venue again. But you can't really just come in cold with a preset and expect to sound awesome. There's a chance it MIGHT, but its a slim chance.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> That's fine, you still can't leave the faders in the same spot for every room. *You can't leave every EQ the same for every room*. You CAN leave your gain staging setup as long as everyone plugging in to your board has consistent output levels. What sounds good dialed in a small square room that holds 30 people isn't going to sound good in a big rectangular room that holds 200 people. Everything that's going FOH is going to need at least some level/EQ adjustment from room to room. That's why touring bands take sound guys with them. If you could just dial in a preset at your practice spot and have it sound good everywhere, that would be fantastic, but its not reality.
> Edit: what is really nice about digital mixer technology is that when do play a room and get it sounding good, you can save that preset to bring up as a starting point for similar rooms/sound systems, or for when you play that venue again. But you can't really just come in cold with a preset and expect to sound awesome. There's a chance it MIGHT, but its a slim chance.


oh sorry I misunderstood. Yeah I get that!
Our pre mix would be to just get us closer than a soundguy who doesnt know the band/songs would. Like would it help them get a better result faster? (also yeah we are defo going to be doing this with the gain staging on the same at all times - all Axe Fxs/Helix's will be in a single 16U tour case at all times so output wont ever change from gig to gig etc)


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## DudeManBrother (Apr 23, 2019)

Get the band setup for in-ears and then you can eliminate the time it takes to dial in the monitor level, but have a splitter and snake ready for FOH so they can do their job. You can save time by controlling what you hear, and taking the room out of the equation; and letting FOH control what they hear. 

If you’re going to try and use your own mixer for their stage monitors I think that’s going to waste way more time in setup. The room is also reintroduced as an obstacle that must be mixed to.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

forgot to add that we take our own monitors - so our stage mix/sound is in OUR hands not the soundguys.

They literally just need to get the FOH sound balanced. (but 9/10 they mess something up. Either backing track is too quiet out front, or one of the 2 guitars is too quiet or both)


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

DudeManBrother said:


> Get the band setup for in-ears and then you can eliminate the time it takes to dial in the monitor level, but have a splitter and snake ready for FOH so they can do their job. You can save time by controlling what you hear, and taking the room out of the equation; and letting FOH control what they hear.
> 
> If you’re going to try and use your own mixer for their stage monitors I think that’s going to waste way more time in setup. The room is also reintroduced as an obstacle that must be mixed to.


This is the way I like to do it. There are definitely times where leaving the FOH guy to his own devices is a sure way to sound like bagged ass, though. I always kind of assume if someone is to the point of worrying about doing their own FOH they've already accounted for monitors.


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## DudeManBrother (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> forgot to add that we take our own monitors - so our stage mix/sound is in OUR hands not the soundguys.
> 
> They literally just need to get the FOH sound balanced. (but 9/10 they mess something up. Either backing track is too quiet out front, or one of the 2 guitars is too quiet or both)


Sounds like you need your own FOH guy then. The stage monitoring will sound very different from the house. A lot of the bands we play with, at “that” level, have someone with an iPad in the audience and they are wirelessly mixing the sound throughout the show. Usually sounds great that way. 

We all use IEM, very low cab stage volume, no stage monitors, and rely on FOH to balance the room appropriately. Seems to work well, and helps us stay razor tight without any feedback issues etc. but ultimately what people hear is in the hands of the guy that runs the board that night.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

DudeManBrother said:


> Sounds like you need your own FOH guy then. The stage monitoring will sound very different from the house. A lot of the bands we play with, at “that” level, have *someone with an iPad in the audience and they are wirelessly mixing the sound throughout the show*. Usually sounds great that way.
> 
> We all use IEM, very low cab stage volume, no stage monitors, and rely on FOH to balance the room appropriately. Seems to work well, and helps us stay razor tight without any feedback issues etc. but ultimately what people hear is in the hands of the guy that runs the board that night.



This is the route I think I want us to take.
Any info or idea on how to go about setting this up? and will that work on any apple/mobile device too?


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

You have to have a mixer that has Wi Fi capabilities. We use the Behringer XR18 with an external router in my bands.


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## DudeManBrother (Apr 23, 2019)

Like Gunpoint said: any WiFi capable mixer would be your starting point. They should detail what devices work with their software etc. 

You could message Michael from the Faceless and ask about his live setup. He runs exactly what you’re wanting to do. He has his own lights, sync’d backing tracks, and wireless mixing by his own crew.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

DudeManBrother said:


> Like Gunpoint said: any WiFi capable mixer would be your starting point. They should detail what devices work with their software etc.
> 
> You could message Michael from the Faceless and ask about his live setup. He runs exactly what you’re wanting to do. He has his own lights, sync’d backing tracks, and wireless mixing by his own crew.


Most of the digital mixers also function as multi-channel USB interfaces, so you can run your tracks into the mixer on their own channel, click on its own channel, bus everything to the various monitor outputs, everyone can mix their own monitors from their phone, someone can control FOH from an iPad/Android tablet, and you can even sync your lights via MIDI off whatever DAW you're using for tracks/click. One of my bands has a light show synced to our clicks and even with all that our setup is usually 10 minutes tops, because everything is good to go, we don't need to talk to FOH for our monitors, and if its really bad, our bassist walks out front with his iPad while we're setting up and dials us in.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

thanks guys!

Found the Behringer XR18 X and it looks like it will do everything we need and more.

and bingo /\ @GunpointMetal ! my plan was to get our bassist to quickly go out and do that too hahaha


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> thanks guys!
> 
> Found the Behringer XR18 X and it looks like it will do everything we need and more.
> 
> and bingo /\ @GunpointMetal ! my plan was to get our bassist to quickly go out and do that too hahaha


If you do go with the XR18 buy an external router at the same time, though. The internal Wi Fi has about a 10' range and even then its super choppy and unreliable. I got a $30 TP Link 5GHz router and haven't had any issues.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you do go with the XR18 buy an external router at the same time, though. The internal Wi Fi has about a 10' range and even then its super choppy and unreliable. I got a $30 TP Link 5GHz router and haven't had any issues.


thanks for that tip!

also, we are all running wireless in the band (Line 6) with various units. Will that interfere/affect this?


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 23, 2019)

lewis said:


> thanks for that tip!
> 
> also, we are all running wireless in the band (Line 6) with various units. Will that interfere/affect this?


Go with a 5Ghz router and you shouldn't have any issues. Line 6 digital wireless stuff is all in the 2GHz range.


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## JohnIce (Apr 24, 2019)

Buying your own mixing gear to bring to gigs sounds like a lot of extra setup hassle for little gain. Especially if you're already on digital guitar gear, which have all the EQ capabilities that the Behringer has. 

I'd put that money towards a kick trigger and line solution for the bass (if you don't have it already). If you can line the guitars, bass and kick, you'd have to be REALLY sloppy arrangers to not get a decent live mix in most rooms. Or well, you won't be able to do anything with the Behringer that you couldn't do already, and it saves you the extra setup time at gigs. Getting one of those TC Helicon boxes for lead vocals is also a great idea to have more control of your gig.

Also, devil's advocate: Sound engineers get a bad rep for being shit but to be fair, 80% of live sound is in arrangement. Some bands are VERY hard to mix and don't realize it themselves. If your songs are so densely arranged that you have to perform major mixing surgery on them to get them to fly, then you need to either hire a sound engineer who can spend more time understanding what to do than 15 minutes before a gig, or take a look at your arrangements and see if you can make them translate better to low-budget venues.


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## GunpointMetal (Apr 24, 2019)

TL;DR - there's no reason this type of a setup complicates anything in a situation where it doesn't need to be fully applied as long as the band has their set-up/tear-down nailed down.



JohnIce said:


> Buying your own mixing gear to bring to gigs sounds like a lot of extra setup hassle for little gain. Especially if you're already on digital guitar gear, which have all the EQ capabilities that the Behringer has.
> 
> I'd put that money towards a kick trigger and line solution for the bass (if you don't have it already). If you can line the guitars, bass and kick, you'd have to be REALLY sloppy arrangers to not get a decent live mix in most rooms. Or well, you won't be able to do anything with the Behringer that you couldn't do already, and it saves you the extra setup time at gigs. Getting one of those TC Helicon boxes for lead vocals is also a great idea to have more control of your gig.


 if the band is running IEM, they're bringing 90% of that digital mixing stuff with them anyways if they wanna have quick setups and not really piss off a sound guy by having him patch all his monitor sends over to their transmitters, and if its a place with a good PA/engineer, its easy enough to have him do his job as normal and just setup your monitoring stuff.



JohnIce said:


> Also, devil's advocate: Sound engineers get a bad rep for being shit but to be fair, 80% of live sound is in arrangement. Some bands are VERY hard to mix and don't realize it themselves. If your songs are so densely arranged that you have to perform major mixing surgery on them to get them to fly, then you need to either hire a sound engineer who can spend more time understanding what to do than 15 minutes before a gig, or take a look at your arrangements and see if you can make them translate better to low-budget venues.


 I call BS here. "Sounding good" as in having all the instruments audible and EQ'd to the room in a live context has next to nothing to do with arrangment unless you have three bass players all playing third harmonies in the bottom end or something. You can have a terrible arrangement and still have good live sound. That doesn't mean it will sound good, but it won't be because the mix is bad. And that's exactly what putting the FOH mix in your own hands is doing if you ARE running really dense mixes. Several places we've played we have a knowledgeable engineer, and it was easier to just hand him our iPad and let him balance everything since we've already done the work of EQ'ing in and around tracks/instruments.


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## lewis (Apr 24, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> TL;DR - there's no reason this type of a setup complicates anything in a situation where it doesn't need to be fully applied as long as the band has their set-up/tear-down nailed down.
> 
> if the band is running IEM, they're bringing 90% of that digital mixing stuff with them anyways if they wanna have quick setups and not really piss off a sound guy by having him patch all his monitor sends over to their transmitters, and if its a place with a good PA/engineer, its easy enough to have him do his job as normal and just setup your monitoring stuff.
> 
> I call BS here. "Sounding good" as in having all the instruments audible and EQ'd to the room in a live context has next to nothing to do with arrangment unless you have three bass players all playing third harmonies in the bottom end or something. You can have a terrible arrangement and still have good live sound. That doesn't mean it will sound good, but it won't be because the mix is bad. And that's exactly what putting the FOH mix in your own hands is doing if you ARE running really dense mixes. Several places we've played we have a knowledgeable engineer, *and it was easier to just hand him our iPad and let him balance everything since we've already done the work of EQ'ing in and around tracks/instruments.*



I agree with all this

the bolded is 100% the route I want to take for my bands live sound!


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## JohnIce (Apr 24, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> if the band is running IEM, they're bringing 90% of that digital mixing stuff with them anyways if they wanna have quick setups and not really piss off a sound guy by having him patch all his monitor sends over to their transmitters, and if its a place with a good PA/engineer, its easy enough to have him do his job as normal and just setup your monitoring stuff.



Ah, I didn't realize that. Yes that is a good point.



GunpointMetal said:


> I call BS here. "Sounding good" as in having all the instruments audible and EQ'd to the room in a live context has next to nothing to do with arrangment unless you have three bass players all playing third harmonies in the bottom end or something. You can have a terrible arrangement and still have good live sound. That doesn't mean it will sound good, but it won't be because the mix is bad. And that's exactly what putting the FOH mix in your own hands is doing if you ARE running really dense mixes. Several places we've played we have a knowledgeable engineer, and it was easier to just hand him our iPad and let him balance everything since we've already done the work of EQ'ing in and around tracks/instruments.



We'll have to agree to disagree there  It took me a good 15 years to really start seeing what a difference arrangement (and key, tempo etc.) does for a mix. I could write a book on that, but that's for another time. That said, if like you say we are talking about really dense mixes, then yeah maybe it's easier to have it pre-carved and handed over as a stereo out, given that the band or someone they know are more knowledgeable than the average sound engineer. However, if the band is already running rack gear for guitars, what else is there really to mix? Kick? Hence why I suggested getting a trigger as a more economical solution over getting a full mixer, but if there's a plan of IEM's you'll need the mixer anyhow and in that case the whole question is a little pointless, as all you need to do is try it for 2-3 gigs and see if it's an improvement or not. You'll be bringing all the gear anyhow.


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