# Dual Scale (25.5"-34") Modified Les Paul Headless Build



## luca9583 (Feb 9, 2014)

Hey folks


I thought you might be interested in a build that i've got going on at the moment. After several years of research and trying out various instruments (30" baritones, fanned frets, dual fan etc), i decided that what i actually needed is two straight scale lengths in one instrument and on one neck, which is achieved by having some extended frets behind the nut.

In this case i'm going for a 7 string with the 5 extra frets behind the nut for the 3 lowest strings, giving me 34" scale on the low end and 25.5" for the top 4. 

The build is being done here in Denmark St, London by Graham Noden, an absolutely world class guitar tech who has worked with some big names in music. 

After realizing that going fully custom was too expensive for a relatively experimental build, we decided to keep costs low by using existing parts.

First we modified a 1990s Gibson Les Paul Studio body by removing the neck...then we created a new headless neck by joining a guitar neck and a bass neck (i think these are old Ibanez or whatever was lying around in the workshop) together.

We then modified the body shape to get more movement that would suit the longer neck. Check out some attached progress pics. You'll see how we first did a mockup with neck placed quite shallow..and then put it in much deeper to make it playable. After that we changed the body shape..it's now got a Gibson Mandolin/Les Paul vibe to it.


I've got a heavy djent funk pop project that needs a guitar that can pull off the extended range live. Check it out here: . Influences include Smashing Pumpkins, Prince, Michael Jackson, Miles Davis and of course, Korn and Meshuggah.

The range i use goes from B0/A0 to regular guitar range so i need the 34" on the low end, and the highs need to sound sweet.

Regardless of whether you like the aesthetic of my music, this is quite an interesting build because it's an instrument that should hopefully do the job and get around the fanned fret dilemma.

So far i've had the body and neck (no hardware yet) in my hands and craftsmanship and playability is superb. 

Check it out. I'd be very interested to see if anyone else on the forum decides to make something similar. The only other ones i've seen like this are on the Carter Custom Instruments site: Carter Custom Instruments
..but they're not headless and seem a little bulky.


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## Shimme (Feb 9, 2014)

Wow. Can't wait to see this finished.


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## abandonist (Feb 9, 2014)

You're tugging my heart strings with this. It's an interesting idea, and that's hard to come by. Your band as well, while not my taste, is well done and Different! Bravo.


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## Necris (Feb 9, 2014)

Yes, yes, I like this idea.


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## DredFul (Feb 9, 2014)

Holy mother of headless guitars! This is absolutely genius. Super stoked to see how it proceeds.

Also what on earth is a dual fan?


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## tssb (Feb 9, 2014)

interested to see how this turns out. Also, really cool song, looking forward to more songs 
The Prince influence seems to be the one coming through the most.


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## luca9583 (Feb 9, 2014)

DredFul said:


> Holy mother of headless guitars! This is absolutely genius. Super stoked to see how it proceeds.
> 
> Also what on earth is a dual fan?



Well i only ever saw a dual fan once..in a guitar i had made by Etherial Guitars wallbash: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ex...ial-dual-fan-fret-guitar-25-5-28-75-32-a.html

Aside from my dubious choice of Roland Synth Guitar bodyshape scratch: i'm strictly Les Paul style now), it was another cool concept that allowed a much larger fan range by having a second fan that started on the lowest two strings..creating a "no man's land" after the 12th fret. 

Anyway that guitar is long gone and was all part of the process of finding out what i really need in an instrument.


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## luca9583 (Feb 9, 2014)

The whole ERG experience is really frustrating, because there's always a compromise. In my case, i don't play any power chords low down so the dual scale concept is perfect for single note playing in the low end, but wouldn't suit players who need typical 7/8 string intervals

Tuning on this thing will be standard D to E on the top 4, plus B0, E1 and E2 on the low 3. A capo on the E2 string gives other options too.

Also, since i took those pics, the cutaway is now deeper to allow full access to the top frets


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## vansinn (Feb 10, 2014)

Cool idea! Now, dual scale isn't really new, just take a look at Rob Guz' (formerly of M.A.N.) 11-stringer 

Having a 35" 7-string bass, I've sometimes been thinking about extending the low string one or two frets..


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## Winspear (Feb 10, 2014)

Saw the title and felt it might be you haha!
Great idea. Looking forward to seeing this. Had some work done by him, cool guy.


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## ASoC (Feb 10, 2014)

The only thing I've seen that's like this is the Strandberg that was made for Tosin. But that was still multiscale and only had 2 extra frets for the bottom 2 strings (also 8 strings)







Btw I also really dig your music, sounds really cool


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 10, 2014)

This is very interesting. I have seen similar things, though mostly in the form of that strandberg mentioned above. (which looks like those two frets would be a bit uncomfortable to play.) I'm interested in seeing where this goes.


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## luca9583 (Feb 10, 2014)

Yeah i've seen that Strandberg. Also worth mentioning is the Kubicki X Factor series. 

In terms of playability (length of neck and upper fret access), my build is essentially identical to having a 34" bass with say, 27 frets.


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## asher (Feb 10, 2014)

Señor Voorhees;3921960 said:


> This is very interesting. I have seen similar things, though mostly in the form of that strandberg mentioned above. (which looks like those two frets would be a bit uncomfortable to play.) I'm interested in seeing where this goes.


 
Those frets are mostly there so you can throw down a capo and have it line up with everything else


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## Winspear (Feb 10, 2014)

I'll get to try a baritone hybrid from Strandberg soon  From other angles those frets look incredibly useable, as the head profile really is so small - the string holders sit lower than the fretboard, or at least just in line with it I think. It looked entirely unobtrusive. I like the idea of drop-tuned range with standard tuned shapes like that. 

The fairly common alto guitars show a similar concept, but here they are clearly not meant to be played (the strings are tuned to open scalar notes to allow basslines without fretting) Usually around 21.5 on top and 28 at the longest


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 10, 2014)

luca9583 said:


> Yeah i've seen that Strandberg. Also worth mentioning is the Kubicki X Factor series.
> 
> In terms of playability (length of neck and upper fret access), my build is essentially identical to having a 34" bass with say, 27 frets.




I couldn't remember which guitar it was that I remember seeing the extended frets on and that was it. A while back when I was convinced I'd never be able to play a real instrument, I tried everything I could to fake it. That included playing around with the "Ministry of Rock" sample library which had a sampled Kubicki bass I think that had those lower notes. (Or it was mentioned in the documentation somewhere. That really is an aweful sample library, and it's been a while since I bothered touching it.)


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## TemjinStrife (Feb 10, 2014)

Kubicki does this too, with a handy-dandy little integrated capo so you can play in standard or dropped if you want to without changing note positions or fingerings.


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## luca9583 (Mar 13, 2014)

Quick update. 

I just got hold of a cheap Danelectro 29.75" Baritone which i'm getting modded while i wait for the dual 7 to be finished. For the Dan we're putting an upside down nut just behind the fifth fret on the top 4 strings, while the bottom two strings stay 29.75". Tuning will be B0, E1 and standard on the top 4. Cutaway will be extended for fret access and a BKP Blackhawk will be routed in the bridge position (likely to be angled once the bridge angle is done). No pics yet for that one...

Btw, the stock Dan is awesome for folks who want to experiment with a longer scale length.

Should have some progress pics for the dual 7 soon.


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## InfinityCollision (Mar 13, 2014)

You tease  Can't wait for pics!


Señor Voorhees;3921960 said:


> This is very interesting. I have seen similar things, though mostly in the form of that strandberg mentioned above. (which looks like those two frets would be a bit uncomfortable to play.) I'm interested in seeing where this goes.


The added frets are actually very playable. The string locks for the upper strings are mounted below the fretboard, they don't get in the way.


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## Pikka Bird (Mar 14, 2014)

TemjinStrife said:


> Kubicki does this too, with a handy-dandy little integrated capo so you can play in standard or dropped if you want to without changing note positions or fingerings.



I saw that a few times before, but that is no good if you wanna use the particular chord voicings/fingerings that dropped tunings open up. It's only for open string lowness.


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## Yimmj (Mar 14, 2014)

Wow ive never seen designs like this. i ....ing love innovation in guitars.. pave the way man!


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## luca9583 (Mar 14, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> I saw that a few times before, but that is no good if you wanna use the particular chord voicings/fingerings that dropped tunings open up. It's only for open string lowness.



Exactly. I don't use power chords down there so that's why i'm going for this approach.

However, if you were to have an 8 string similar to my dual 7, but divided 4 & 4 so the lowest 4 strings have 5 extended frets, then you would have some degree of power chord access (depending on the tuning).

In fact, you can simulate power chords on single strings by putting a pitch shifter/harmonizer set to a 5th and octave above (mixed 50%) in front of a preamp, which is a lot of fun when bending. Try it!


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## luca9583 (Mar 14, 2014)

Some progress pics attached for the Danelectro showing the reverse nut nailed onto the fretboard. Simple yet effective for the task (no capo needed)


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## GunnarJames (Mar 15, 2014)

This is awesome. 

How are you going about the truss rod?


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## luca9583 (Mar 15, 2014)

GunnarJames said:


> This is awesome.
> 
> How are you going about the truss rod?



For the dual 7 the two necks each have their own truss rod.
Not sure if these have been re-routed.


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## TemjinStrife (Mar 15, 2014)

Pikka Bird said:


> I saw that a few times before, but that is no good if you wanna use the particular chord voicings/fingerings that dropped tunings open up. It's only for open string lowness.



Which is pretty much perfect for bass.


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## luca9583 (Mar 18, 2014)

Some progress pics for the 7. This is in part a mockup to get some strings on there, have a play and make the next set of decisions.

You'll notice the tuners are now there, plus a mock bridge. The clamps on the top 4 strings will be replaced with some kind of nut mechanism and we will use double ball end strings...this will make playability/navigation in the low end the way it should be. Also planning on putting a removable single string capo on the E1 string at the 5th fret to allow standard tuning on the top 5 strings (ie A-E)

It's also worth noting how the string spacing starts off equal at the bridge and eventually the guitar and bass sections get a little close..not sure yet how we'll address that but it doesn't affect playability.

Bass fret markers will be removed.

Playability, even without a setup or proper action, was excellent, and everything lines up perfectly. The neck routing is deep into what was originally a Les Paul Studio, so it doesn't feel long as if a bass neck was just hanging off a Les Paul..it actually feels great!

Thinking about pickups too..potentially a split setup on the bridge pickup so that lower and higher strings have a separate output...

..but I'm thinking more in terms of a single bridge pickup (BKP Blackhawk) plus an extra single string pup for the low B0 right next to the bridge with it's own output, which i can use for an extra eq boost around 1-2k for that string only before it hits the preamp. The reason i need this is because the 120 string gives great intonation and note definition for the B0, but it needs extra brightness to be eq'd in to match the snap and djent of the E1 string. 

Pickup routing will be classic Gibson style, so what currently looks like the neck pup routing might move right up against that final fret.

Really exciting stuff and great to be able to check each stage of the progress in person! It really made sense to go about it this way rather than to just make something custom from scratch.


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## jwade (Mar 18, 2014)

This is looking really cool, man!


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## BlackMastodon (Mar 18, 2014)

I am loving how this is coming together! Really awesome idea.


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## luca9583 (Jun 4, 2014)

Some progress showing the string holders. The lower string holder will be adjusted once we get the strings on there...


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## Winspear (Jun 4, 2014)

Awesome stuff going on man.
I must ask, if you don't mind..How much is this work costing? That place seems pretty expensive (not a complaint - the work I had done was quality!)


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## ElRay (Jun 4, 2014)

luca9583 said:


> ... what i actually needed is two straight scale lengths in one instrument and on one neck, which is achieved by having some extended frets behind the nut ...



Yes! Another Electric Theorbo:




Ray


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## luca9583 (Jun 4, 2014)

AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Exactly what i had in...mind


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## ElRay (Jun 4, 2014)

luca9583 said:


> AHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
> 
> Exactly what i had in...mind



It's amazing how history reinvents itself. Theorbos are only about 400 years old.

Ray


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## luca9583 (Sep 2, 2014)

Loads of progress with this beast happening.

The "bass" string holder is being redone to allow even string spacing for both the 34" and 25.5" sections (currently the bass strings end up being spaced wider as they reach the nut). This means the bass neck will need to be made narrower, which i was thinking could be achieved by making a curve in the fretboard.

Got some BKP Blackhawk pups in there and the clarity of the low strings is fantastic at 34". Got a .120 and a .74 on there for B0 and E1. The high end sounds exactly as it should at 25.5".

Having access to this range of notes without the need for a huge fan is pretty awesome

Still deciding on the final bridge.


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## immortalx (Sep 3, 2014)

Wow haven't seen anything like this before!


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## luca9583 (Sep 25, 2014)

New progress pics attached. Very close to completion now. Just need to make the bridge and do the wiring.

Re-made the bass nut/holder to have more uniform string spacing for the whole guitar.

Had another test play on it today and playability was amazing...

One of the Blackhawk pups was ordered angled, while the other one was modded here to cover all the strings (probably because these pups were originally for a different guitar and i think one of them was a 6 string pup!)


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## jwade (Sep 26, 2014)

Can't wait to see this thing in action!


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## CD1221 (Sep 26, 2014)

Bloody awesome.

Well done, sir.


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## The Q (Sep 26, 2014)

Theorbos are evil. This guitar is evil as well. EEEEVIL I TELLS YA!


Joking aside, an interesting concept, but fanned frets (and perhaps true temperament ones) is as far as I'll go.


(Seriously though, the Theorbo is evil. Think of the children)


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## Rakija (Sep 26, 2014)

dude i really dig your music seriously, posting this all over my facebook!


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## luca9583 (Sep 27, 2014)

Rakija said:


> dude i really dig your music seriously, posting this all over my facebook!



Thanks so much man


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## Erockomania (Sep 27, 2014)

interesting music. definitely a catchy chorus!


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## akinari (Oct 3, 2014)

So glad to see this thing coming together man. I would love to try something like this for a similar tuning someday. Can't wait to hear more of your music!


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## shikamaru (Oct 6, 2014)

That is one of the most original design I&#8217;ve ever seen, that build is turning out awesome !


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## luca9583 (Nov 17, 2014)

Had another play on the beast recently and it's _almost_ there..still waiting on this bridge to be made. Going with all black finish (the brown on the sides in the previous pics was a test)

New jam here with me playing all the instruments:

https://soundcloud.com/lucafrancomusic/missing-out-mix-7


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## p88 (Nov 17, 2014)

awesome music! so fresh!


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## XxJoshxX (Nov 20, 2014)

Really fvcking cool music, man!


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## luca9583 (Mar 8, 2015)

Finish is on. Just need to do the final assembly now...


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## jwade (Mar 8, 2015)

Looks nice! Stoked to see/hear it soon.


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## SilentCartographer (Mar 8, 2015)

c'mon... 8.5" fan, you know you want to


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## luca9583 (Mar 8, 2015)

SilentCartographer said:


> c'mon... 8.5" fan, you know you want to



Ahahahaha


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## SilentCartographer (Mar 8, 2015)

, no really though, looks awesome, very cool stuff man!


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## luca9583 (Apr 18, 2015)

Build complete! Tested her out for a week before sending her back in for some tweaks. Superb instrument and the concept really worked out.

Will mod the bass string holder to be a clamp system as used in the earlier mockups so that i can try different strings that aren't double ball end.


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## stevexc (Apr 18, 2015)

Definitely funky looking, but awesome! Solid concept too, IMO. I dig that you took a bit of a departure from the common single-cut shapes, it's definitely got that LP vibe but it's still different.


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## XxJoshxX (Apr 19, 2015)

It almost reminds me of a giant mandolin. I have no idea why.


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## luca9583 (Apr 19, 2015)

XxJoshxX said:


> It almost reminds me of a giant mandolin. I have no idea why.



Yeah the body shape is similar to Gibson mandolins


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