# Not so happy new gear day, kiesel photomatch gone wrong - FINAL UPDATE: 5-3-16



## Konstantine

For those short on time, I requested a photo match and supplied a few photos of the same guitar that I wanted to have photo matched. The end product I received looks completely different and I found out today I will NOT be getting a refund or even a store credit from kiesel to fund a new build. Disappointed is an understatement.

Let me start by saying that I am or should I say 'was' a kiesel fan boy, I'm sad to say that has changed.


I had originally ordered an aquaburst dc700 and when I received it, it had numerous finish flaws (scrape in fretboard wood, missing paint on point of headstock, body binding showing through paint on edge of neck where it should not). Anyways... it was sent back and I was given no hassle. I decided to give it another try and ordered another dc700 this time wanting a lighter version of the aquaburst as it turned out to be way darker in person compared to the online photos. I supplied 3 photos of an agile I had seen online shown below... when I received my rebuild and opened the case I was dumbfounded to find a guitar that had an entirely different looking color finish. I contacted customer service and although I was spoken to kindly, I was kindly told that no, I would not be getting any refund as it was a rebuild and a custom finish. This would seem okay normally but in my situation it was a rebuild because the first guitar had numerous flaws and secondly this photo match finish was not a photo match finish at all in reality. 

Jeff himself claims its because the burl maple top is such a dark wood that it is not possible to make it lighter. Gee, I WISH THEY HAD TOLD ME THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE! instead of doing it anyway right? I would've definitely changed my mind had I heard that tid bit of info beforehand spending 2300+ dollars on this build. Now I'm stuck with a 2400 dollar guitar that does not look even close to what I wanted 

pics I supplied: 









and what I ended up with: 





*UPDATE - 04-16-2016*

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/4569212-post123.html


KieselGuitars said:


> Hey guys,
> I did the finish myself and attached is what it actually looks like, because this customer selected a wood (Burl) that is much darker and more brown in color than the flamed maple used in the original image - it can't be matched 100%. But we all were very happy with my match. This guy has talked with three of my guys and one of them several times last week. We will not be refunding this and if he does not like the guitar he can sell it and move on. We do our best and we stand behind our work, all photo matches are our best attempts and I stand behind this one. Thanks for reading my side.
> 
> Jeff Kiesel




*UPDATE - 04-17-2016*

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/4569655-post236.html


Konstantine said:


> Well the second fb thread in the kiesel group that was made by an admin is now gone. I wouldn't be surprised if this thread will be gone next by the middle of this week.
> 
> For all the people who are speculating about outside details not being revealed, there are none. It's as simple as this: first guitar received riddled with flaws as stated in OP, second guitar rebuild I took the opportunity to have a photomatch finish done, they made it seem that it would be done without any problems or variation, I asked if I could have progress pics or any kind of assurance and they refused that, I receive the guitar after waiting about 4 months and open the case and it doesn't look remotely close to what I asked them to match, no translucency to the finish and completely different color and gradient. I said for them to match the photo as close and exact as possible, I don't know how I could have emphasized it any more than that. I called constantly to hear progress reports and was never warned about them not being able to pull off the photomatch, this tells me that they basically said "fk it, we are going to ship the guy the guitar anyway and if he doesn't like it, he's stuck with it anyway so it's not our problem". That's really all there is to the situation.
> 
> I want to thank the members on here again for giving support and understanding. Apparently kiesel thought some lowly customer could just be swept under the rug easily without a fuss but they were proven wrong.
> 
> I wish I had just listen to my gut and took my money and ran after how things went with the first guitar but I wanted to give them a second chance and this is what I got.



*UPDATE - ***Final update 5/3/16****

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/4578392-post451.html



Konstantine said:


> I made one last attempt today to reconcile this whole situation with Kiesel over the phone today (5/3/16) asking if they would please just refund the $300 price of the photomatch like I had asked in the beginning since it was not a photomatch at all so I don't get killed on trying to resale the guitar. I feel bad for the customer service guy stuck being Jeff's messenger as he was at least polite talking to me although he had to be Jeff's mouthpiece on the phone.
> 
> After telling customer service what I said above about a refund for the photo upcharge, he informed me that Jeff had gotten word of what happened on the fb fan page which seems like would've made Jeff stand by me to make things right at that point and save face, considering I (a paying customer mind you) was fiercely flamed and personally attacked by fanboys on there) but no, jeff was upset that I took to the internet to complain and could care less about the treatment I've been getting through this whole ordeal.
> 
> I reminded the customer service rep that I had spoken with them numerous times to try and work this out and just get a refund for the photomatch before resorting to social media to voice my disappointment.
> 
> This next part is almost comical at this point... He then told me that my account is flagged and I am forbidden from ever being a customer again because Jeff "does not want to do business like this". Gee, that seems like quite a mature response, good thing I don't even want to be a customer ever again after this. For the amount of money spent and the amount of time I patiently waited to receive this item (more than half a year when considering the wait for the first flawed guitar), this has to be the worst customer service experience I've ever had. I STRONGLY caution anyone to take a hard look at how this owner handles his business before spending your hard earned money with them.


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## ThePIGI King

That's pretty crappy on Kiesel's end. Also, I'm not genius or anything, but I'm pretty sure that if you use the right stain, in the right way, you can make any shade happen on most any wood...I doubt they got the colour wrong due to which wood you chose. I'm pretty sure that comes down to pure laziness and lack of professionalism. Every day threads like these turn me off from my dream Vader. I guess Kiesel won't be getting my money in a year or two now. I hope the best for you.


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## Hbett

Wow. That's not even close. Kiesel's customer service has just been circling the drain lately.


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## Konstantine

I told them I'd be willing to even pay restocking fees and penalty fees, ANYTHING! I spent two years saving up money for this damn guitar.


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## Alex Kenivel

Maybe you should have ordered a custom from Rondo instead..


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## Konstantine

Alex Kenivel said:


> Maybe you should have ordered a custom from Rondo instead..



I considered that but I wanted american made quality, not some korean made hit or miss guitar. Both of the kiesels played outstanding and had the lowest action without fret buzz out of any guitars I tried before. It's a damn shame that they screwed up in the other aspects.


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## yellowv

Who sprayed that? Stevie Wonder?


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## olejason

It isn't that the color is slightly off, the finish is actually completely different. The darkness of a stain definitely can vary based on the wood and it can be hard to judge from photos but damn... they really missed the mark on that.


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## marcwormjim

Chargeback?


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## Emperor Guillotine

Yet another flawed guitar from Kiesel along with another customer service sh*tshow. Wow, they really are racking them up. Let's see if they will try to sweep this one under the rug. Or have they been busted enough times that they know that people are watching?

Doesn't Agile offer that same sort of oceanburst finish with the white center? Maybe Kiesel just ignored your supplied pics and only read the word "oceanburst" that you included in your email or something and just defaulted to looking at pics on the Agile/Rondo site. It would not surprise me. Either way (if they did or not), this is another major screw-up.


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## kevdes93

Saw this on the kiesel Facebook group, I'm really sorry to see this man i can't imagine how you must feel after saving up for so long only to be let down in the end. That color is absolutely 100% not what you asked for, period.


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## Stealth7

#CustomShopPride


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## Konstantine

Lol some people in the kiesel group are trying to say its my fault for not asking how the burl affects the paint... Isn't that part of customer service? Informing the customer that their photo match finish request is not doable? Jeez.


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## Spoonerluv

There's this admin in the group who keeps deleting comments that criticize Kiesel. Complete bull.....


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## MoshJosh

Dude that sucks!!! I'm just hoping that if this thread gets enough attention, maybe kiesel will make it right! Its happened before, well at least with other brands.


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## M3CHK1LLA

I actually like that finish...sorry its not what you wanted.

maybe you can get a little refund back and have a luthier fix it for you.

get a quote and present it to kiesel


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## Mattykoda

I had to pick my jaw up from the floor after seeing that picture. I'm no expert on staining but it looks like they didn't even try, the chinese fake guitars look better than that. 
The top is burl maple?


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## jc986

Also saw this on the Kiesel FB group. There's some true assholes over there. To be a fanboy of a brand is one thing, but to deny that this photo match was completely blundered is just crazy. The color that the guitar ended up does match almost exactly the stock photos of the oceanburst color so I get the feeling that they didn't use the supplied photos and just used the stock photos instead. They did a fantastic job matching the website example of the color....


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## Konstantine

Yes, its burl


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## Konstantine

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Yet another flawed guitar from Kiesel along with another customer service ....show. Wow, they really are racking them up. Let's see if they will try to sweep this one under the rug. Or have they been busted enough times that they know that people are watching?
> 
> Doesn't Agile offer that same sort of oceanburst finish with the white center? Maybe Kiesel just ignored your supplied pics and only read the word "oceanburst" that you included in your email or something and just defaulted to looking at pics on the Agile/Rondo site. It would not surprise me. Either way (if they did or not), this is another major screw-up.



I only sent the photos, I didn't mention it was an agile or it was an oceanburst or any of that.


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## Emperor Guillotine

Konstantine said:


> Lol some people in the kiesel group are trying to say its my fault for not asking how the burl affects the paint... Isn't that part of customer service? Informing the customer that their photo match finish request is not doable? Jeez.


The figuring of the top does not turn the finish from green to white! Common sense. Plus, this is a sprayed finish, not a stain. The kids in that group are absolute morons.


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## Mattykoda

I thought it looked sprayed. Like they can do this 





And these












But cant lighten up that center a little bit? Cmon Kiesel


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## Hollowway

Am I looking at the right picture? The picture looks like a whitewash with a blue burst. I don't see how it's dark in the middle at all. It just looks white. I expected a dark blue, based on the comment about the darkness of burl. But that actually looks light, just totally not blended and not any shade of blue in the middle part.


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## Mattykoda

To the op I really hope they get you taken care of and your not out $2400
Put this on IG Kiesel








EDIT: Forgot the hashtag #buyamerican


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## Konstantine

Mattykoda said:


> To the op I really hope they get you taken care of and your not out $2400
> Put this on kiesel ig
> 
> EDIT: Forgot the hashtag #buyamerican



I don't have IG but you are welcome to throw it up there. The fact that I'm getting harassed like crazy on the fb page has me disgusted. One guy even crept through my profile and started posting pics of me. What a pleasure to do business with kiesel


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## MrWulf

Wow, i'm not a fan of burst color but that oceanburst is sick.
The Agile burst, that is. The Kiesel one looks crappy. So much for buying American.


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## Hollowway

Yeah, FB is like wandering into a psychopath ward. Zero empathy, and a lot of frightening aggression. I'm afraid to post anything these days. Saying, "I don't care for mint chocolate chip ice cream" is enough to get death threats. 

You might try creating a profile on carvinbbs.com and posting there. Things seem to get looked at closely there, and are generally dealt with well. The guys there are huge Carvin fans, but are also super supportive and laid back.

One question I have though - if you return a guitar and buy another one, are you saying you cannot then return that one as well? Like, you only get one return? I didn't understand that part about not being able to return a rebuild. I thought it was that you could return anything other than an option 50, and it didn't matter how many other returns you had.


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## jc986

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, FB is like wandering into a psychopath ward. Zero empathy, and a lot of frightening aggression. I'm afraid to post anything these days. Saying, "I don't care for mint chocolate chip ice cream" is enough to get death threats.
> 
> You might try creating a profile on carvinbbs.com and posting there. Things seem to get looked at closely there, and are generally dealt with well. The guys there are huge Carvin fans, but are also super supportive and laid back.
> 
> One question I have though - if you return a guitar and buy another one, are you saying you cannot then return that one as well? Like, you only get one return? I didn't understand that part about not being able to return a rebuild. I thought it was that you could return anything other than an option 50, and it didn't matter how many other returns you had.



My understanding is that the return was only denied due to having an option 50 "color match".


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## Konstantine

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, FB is like wandering into a psychopath ward. Zero empathy, and a lot of frightening aggression. I'm afraid to post anything these days. Saying, "I don't care for mint chocolate chip ice cream" is enough to get death threats.
> 
> You might try creating a profile on carvinbbs.com and posting there. Things seem to get looked at closely there, and are generally dealt with well. The guys there are huge Carvin fans, but are also super supportive and laid back.
> 
> One question I have though - if you return a guitar and buy another one, are you saying you cannot then return that one as well? Like, you only get one return? I didn't understand that part about not being able to return a rebuild. I thought it was that you could return anything other than an option 50, and it didn't matter how many other returns you had.



It was news to me too, after having called saying the finish turned out different, I was informed that since it was a rebuild (even though the first instrument had numerous finish flaws) your second go around is absolutely non-returnable in addition to the option 50 finish


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## jc986

Konstantine said:


> It was news to me too, after having called saying the finish turned out different, I was informed that since it was a rebuild (even though the first instrument had numerous finish flaws) your second go around is absolutely non-returnable



Just out of curiosity, was your first build also a color match or was that only initiated with the rebuild? And if you don't mind sharing, what issues were there with the initial build? If you had a thread for that I must have missed it.


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## Konstantine

I didn't make a thread because they promptly accepted the return so I was being nice and giving them a chance to make things right, instead they spit in my face and laugh at me with this second incident. The first build had a long deep scrape in the front of the fretboard, paint missing off the point of the headstock and body binding bleeding through, showing on the top side of the neck where it was supposed to be black. And it was not a color match, it was an aqua burst


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## Konstantine

And the fb post got taken down because the administration let a troll continue on making personal insults and slanders with impunity, a coincidence? I think not.


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## jc986

Konstantine said:


> I didn't make a thread because they promptly accepted the return so I was being nice and giving them a chance to make things right, instead they spit in my face and laugh at me with this second incident. The first build had a long deep scrape in the front of the fretboard, paint missing off the point of the headstock and body binding bleeding through, showing on the top side of the neck where it was supposed to be black.



Gotcha. Really sucks to have spent that kind of money with this kind of result. Was the initial build the same specs? Same color match request?


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## Mathemagician

This kind of stuff is why I've held off from buying a Kiesel. And I've seen several awesome blue bursts lately from everywhere but Carvin. (I don't like that DEEEEEEEP blue they throw in everything.) I've resigned myself to saving up and getting a full custom I actually want. Sucks that your stuck with that half-eaten jawbreaker finish.


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## cemges

To be honest I think your guitar looks better. But I have been seeing those Kiesel threads, I don't know much about carvin etc. But I got the impression Jeff Kiesel is somewhat drunk?


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## MoonJelly

That's.... wow. I mean, I'm sort of color-blind, and even I can tell that's wayyy off. Sorry, man.

Also Holloway, I'm seeing what you see, it may just be the photo though. It's more yellow at the middle for me.


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## exo

Maybe it's just that the Internet emphasizes the negative in things, but man, Keisel's level of QC is positively Gibson-esque recently. Ordering from them seems like playing Russian roulette these days...... The color match isn't even in the same ballpark, and from the sounds of it, the first guitar never should have been shipped!


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## Zado

Konstantine said:


> Lol some people in the kiesel group are trying to say its my fault for not asking how the burl affects the paint... Isn't that part of customer service? Informing the customer that their photo match finish request is not doable? Jeez.



Don't worry man, nothing new under the sun.

Ugly job,btw



> There's this admin in the group who keeps deleting comments that criticize Kiesel. Complete bull.....


Apparently there are some huge FB groups which have Carvin-Kiesel employees as admins...that would explain quite a lot.


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## downburst82

Konstantine said:


> And the fb post got taken down because the administration let a troll continue on making personal insults and slanders with impunity, a coincidence? I think not.



yup ive seen that strategy used on other groups controlled by the same person I suspect is in control of the carvin/kiesel group....they could just delete the offending posts/comments..you know mod like they are supposed to do. But letting it get out of hand with personal attacks and then deleting a thread that makes them look bad "for your sake" works so much better


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## Fathand

Ugh, that's bad and the rigid customer service attitude (even though you clearly have a product that's nothing like it was supposed to be) sounds even worse. 

To me it looks like Kiesel's honeymoon as the "cheap custom shop with mostly reliable quality" is over - some mishaps were acceptable earlier, but if they're going to aim for the big league they still have a couple of things to fix and I hope they realize that in the _custom_ guitar business --> quality > quantity (psst, call John Suhr or Paul Reed Smith)


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## BIG ND SWEATY

Fu_c_k dude that looks awful, really hope they pull their heads out of their asses and fix this somehow

Hopefully we can get some kind of warning before this thread disappears like it never happened, anyone wanna place bets for when that happens?


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## Zado

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> Fu_c_k dude that looks awful, really hope they pull their heads out of their asses and fix this somehow
> 
> Hopefully we can get some kind of warning before this thread disappears like it never happened, anyone wanna place bets for when that happens?




Didn't it happen some weeks ago with a similar thread? Can't sem to find it anymore


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## MrWulf

Zado said:


> Didn't it happen some weeks ago with a similar thread? Can't sem to find it anymore



The owner of the forum remove the thread. The mod apparently had no hand in it. Not surprising considering Kiesel is advertise in here after all.


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## Zado

MrWulf said:


> The owner of the forum remove the thread. The mod apparently had no hand in it. Not surprising considering Kiesel is advertise in here after all.



Yeah the mods in here are nice people, I'd surprise me If they did something like that. Well I had plenty of reason not to buy a Kiesel anyway, this is just another drop into the sea.


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## narad

Wow, I've been really thinking about trying out Kiesel lately, but gotta say, this is really terrible. And $2400? Did they really get that expensive for something so barebones? I thought that was closer to those Kiesel-edition K7 things.


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## downburst82

For years a Carvin dc-400 was my dream guitar. I saved up a few times but never quite got there before life/kids got in the way. I had always planned to go for it someday...not now. I just dont like the way they operate anymore  My dream semi custom will eventually be built by fast guitars! They are still under the radar (gaining traction here) but make great stuff and are local to me.


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## Pikka Bird

They couldn't make it _lighter_ because it's a burl? But... it IS very light. Also very featureless.

edit: Oh, late to the party, sorry...


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## Lasik124

This is a bummer, sorry to see this happen. Thanks for sharing the word.


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## CircuitalPlacidity

Sorry about your situation. Although it may not be what you want, this is a stunning guitar.

EDIT: Nevermind, I just glanced at the first pic. That finish is awesome. I would be appalled if what you received arrived at my door unless I asked for it. I was contemplating doing an order through these guys, but not after seeing this thread.


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## Nlelith

Ouch. What a terrible customer service. And that "color match" looks like they didn't even try... I hope everything will get right for you in the end.


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## mnemonic

Sucks man  

Kinda ....ty, you order an option 50 and they won't let you return it even if they .... it up? Definitely doesn't bode well. 

I wonder how that would go down in the EU, now that they deal direct to Europe. IIRC return policies are not optional here, and you have to accept returns for any reason up to 14 days or something.


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## ShadeOGreen

Can you post some additional pics of the Kiesel? In the one shot you have posted the contrast looks totally blown out. Maybe one where we can see the grain of the wood on the body?


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## maliciousteve

I was planning on ordering a Carvin for my 30th birthday this July. However after seeing this thread and a few others, I don't think I'll go that route. A real shame, I was glad to see they started selling direct to those outside the US again but I don't think I'd take the risk.

How is the guitar despite the mismatch in colour?


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## Hachetjoel

Kiesel has no intention of resolving this so I would go ahead and do a Chargeback through your bank or cc company depending on who you used. You should be able to get your money back fairly easily.


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## skmanga

How do chargebacks work?
I've heard they taint your credit score..

Sad to hear Kiesel let ya down!!
I recently had a good look at their site after grabbing a new Schecter km7, I was kind of floored by the amount of options available on their site.

IMO that finish came out terrible!!
Why Kiesel would think that it would make someone happy is beyond me, even without the reference pics provided for the photo match...


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## jc986

skmanga said:


> How do chargebacks work?
> I've heard they taint your credit score..
> 
> Sad to hear Kiesel let ya down!!
> I recently had a good look at their site after grabbing a new Schecter km7, I was kind of floored by the amount of options available on their site.
> 
> IMO that finish came out terrible!!
> Why Kiesel would think that it would make someone happy is beyond me, even without the reference pics provided for the photo match...



Credit card companies do keep a record of customers that frequently do chargebacks, but in and of itself, a single chargeback should have no impact whatsoever on your credit score.


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## skmanga

Interesting, ill have to save that for a real rainy day!!

So for instance in the OP's case, he would file a chargeback with his bank or CC company, and then return the item he isn't happy with back to Kiesel?


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## Bdtunn

It's a shame they've gone this way. I've stopped following them on everything and sold mine off just because they leave a bitter taste in my mouth now. I really enjoyed their stuff for years when they were carvin. I give them credit on the headless and mutlis avail to the masses. But man if you even dig a little you can get a full custom for close to the price of a optioned Keisel. Sorry about your guitar, that's not even close.


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## awake69

Wrong, wrong, wrong and more wrong! Given the popularity and price range of Kiesel, I can't believe they wouldn't make this right for you. As others have said here, I think a chargeback is in order. That's a chunk of change for you to drop and have them mess it up like that. I'm so sorry they screwed it up for you. Hopefully, somehow, this will get resolved.


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## Chokey Chicken

I actually really like the one that you got, but it's nowhere near the reference pic you sent. Pretty ....ed up to send out something that clearly doesn't match and then refuse to take care of it. I think I'm done with Kiesel for now. We've got two, and they're great, but they seem to be going down that familiar "once great" custom shop road. I'm glad to have experienced the good part of it, but really don't feel like risking further money.


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## dhgrind

for the charge back option you usually only have like 30-60 days depending on the card issuer. there are also stipulations for what they require alongside the chargeback. I was close to doing a chargeback on my Kiesel as well but my card issuer required a "professional opinion" with a letter including letterhead or business card stating that the item was insufficient. 

Sorry about your guitar though. That agile does have a sick paint job. maybe you could just spend the money to get the agile put up to par with the kiesel for way less money probably. idk just shooting an idea out there. I've thought about taking my RGD to get repainted instead of selling it.


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## Emperor Guillotine

*mod edit: you've been warned before, inter-forum / group drama and discussing banned members isn't allowed here*



Konstantine said:


> I don't have IG but you are welcome to throw it up there. The fact that I'm getting harassed like crazy on the fb page has me disgusted. One guy even crept through my profile and started posting pics of me. What a pleasure to do business with kiesel


Typical Wired Guitarist antics. (The Music Discussion and the Kiesel group. Both run by WG.) Loaded with immature children and admin-ed by equally immature individuals.



Hollowway said:


> Yeah, FB is like wandering into a psychopath ward. Zero empathy, and a lot of frightening aggression. I'm afraid to post anything these days. Saying, "I don't care for mint chocolate chip ice cream" is enough to get death threats.
> 
> You might try creating a profile on carvinbbs.com and posting there. Things seem to get looked at closely there, and are generally dealt with well. The guys there are huge Carvin fans, but are also super supportive and laid back.


Amen.



Zado said:


> Apparently there are some huge FB groups which have Carvin-Kiesel employees as admins...that would explain quite a lot.


One of the guys who runs Wired Guitarist is Kiesel's social media guy. (Thus, the thread deletion everywhere and the brainwashing that Kiesel is this "end all" company that takes place in that group and the subsequent related pages/groups.)



Zado said:


> Didn't it happen some weeks ago with a similar thread? Can't sem to find it anymore


Flint757 posted Google Cache versions of the pages from the thread after it was deleted. (Hopefully Google Cache hasn't deleted them yet.)


flint757 said:


> Hold up:
> 
> Page 1
> 
> Page 2
> 
> I assume these are the pages in question.


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## dhgrind

*mod edit: and you stop instigating... if you can't operate within the defined site rules you will get banned. Talking about banned members and stirring inter-site crap is against the forum rules.*

watch out emporer you might get erased =P


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## JSanta

Option 50 is inherently non-refundable correct? I could understand Kiesel's stance on 99.9% of issues, but the finish is beyond the pale in terms of what you were looking to get, and against the pictures you sent them. I've been a long time Carvin player, but their group of FB is quite hilarious with the amount of brand defense and derogatory back and forth because the company screwed up. Hopefully, you will be able to offload the guitar, but it might be priced a bit high on the second hand market even though it is essentially brand new.


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## Fred the Shred

#nailedit 

Sucks that things turned out this way, man - here's hoping a proper solution is found.


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## SnowfaLL

EVERYTIME I've asked for photomatching, they told me specifically "there is no guarantee it will turn out exactly how you want, it will be our best try but dont expect it to be perfect, and there is no refunds" - Did you get told that? Thats usually what they say when you ask for it.

Either way, I promise you that after this incident, photomatching will never happen again at Kiesel.


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## Mattykoda

Konstantine said:


> I don't have IG but you are welcome to throw it up there. The fact that I'm getting harassed like crazy on the fb page has me disgusted. One guy even crept through my profile and started posting pics of me. What a pleasure to do business with kiesel



I was meaning it more towards Kiesel to put it on their own IG. I have a DC7X from them that I have become quite fond of and have been thinking about ordering another guitar from them for a while but with all that I've seen here lately my money will without doubt go elsewhere.


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## oneblackened

So, things to do:

Blow up facebook/IG/Twitter with this. Absolutely unacceptable, considering the shape of the first guitar you received. 

Do a chargeback if you can.


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## KnightroExpress

Damn, I really hope they reverse course and help you out.


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## Tisca

mnemonic said:


> .
> .
> .
> I wonder how that would go down in the EU, now that they deal direct to Europe. IIRC return policies are not optional here, and you have to accept returns for any reason up to 14 days or something.



In most cases of custom products the customer protection laws are void, which makes sense. It's not EU law but country specific afaik.


$2400 for a custom guitar sounds really cheap. I guess you get what you pay for.


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## Mangle

I guess refinishing it, in the long run, is looking like about the only serious option. Sorry to hear about your bad luck OP. But I want to say thank you for posting about your problem and all the shenanigans you're having to go through.


Kiesel seems to be headed out of their depth with this product line expansion and it's leading to a serious decline in the company's ability to (a.) properly produce it's product (b.) police it's production procedure and (c.) understand it's own problematic situation. 
You see this over and over in the maverick owner as visionary/company saviour scheme. The innability to recognize the snowball effect with "issues we'll surely avoid thanks to my innate brilliance" and because "it won't happen on my watch".

Was looking to place an order for a DC7X (after much debate/decision making over semi-custom 7 or 8 from Carvin specifically). But, after seeing the problems as they are developing? In real time over the past few weeks? It's like asking for trouble.... when what you really want is a nice guitar . F*ck these guys and their sh*tty company anyway.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

The burst is a little thin, but the colors look pretty spot on. (considering OP's photo looks pretty over exposed, my mind might be playing tricks and over-adjusting.) It looks like they didn't darken the figuring though. 

I got an op50 color recently, and they were pretty straightforward in telling me that it's non-returnable. Not only that, Chris was pretty up front with letting me know that the color might look slightly different on arrival.

This isn't so much a flaw, but a roll of the dice. It sucks it didn't turn out how you'd like it, but it does sort of hammer home that if you're not willing to take risks, you'd best stay away from option 50's.

I hope it works out for you man. Regardless of who is or isn't at fault, it's never fun to wait forever and get something that doesn't meet your expectations.

edit: Just checked my receipt and it does in fact say "ANY GUITAR WITH 50 OPTION IS NON-REFUNDABLE NO 10 DAY TRIAL - NO RETURN - NO EXCHANGE."


----------



## russmuller

That really sucks.

It's not just that you don't like the finish, but how in the hell can you call THAT a photo-match? You straight up did not get what you paid for. That's really, really disappointing to hear.

I had two good experiences with Kiesel in the past 3 years. I've seen a lot of people hating on them lately and I'd yet to see any evidence, but this is the first that I've actually come across of straight bad business.

I hope you get it sorted with them one way or another. Because if you have to sell it, you're gonna take a big hit.


----------



## ramses

Konstantine said:


> The first build had a long deep scrape in the front of the fretboard, paint missing off the point of the headstock and body binding bleeding through, showing on the top side of the neck where it was supposed to be black.



They may be trying to grow too fast. Hopefully Kiesel will stop adding new models for at least six months.


----------



## Andromalia

Tisca said:


> In most cases of custom products the customer protection laws are void, which makes sense. It's not EU law but country specific afaik.



I don't think a company policy can state "law X is void in this case" without having serious problems with lawyers pretty fast in the EU.
In France you can return *everything* purchased online with no reason needed, but you are responsible for the shipping costs if it is just a change of mind and not a fault with the item. AFAIK it's a european law that should be transcribed in all the national legislations at this point.
The situation when the seller is outside of EU is a bit unclear, but a chargeback has been known to motivate companies to do the right thing. There is absolutely no problem in doing one if you're not a regular labeled as such by your bank. All the chargeback costs will be billed to the offending company, too.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Andromalia said:


> I don't think a company policy can state "law X is void in this case" without having serious problems with lawyers pretty fast in the EU.
> In France you can return *everything* purchased online with no reason needed, but you are responsible for the shipping costs if it is just a change of mind and not a fault with the item. AFAIK it's a european law that should be transcribed in all the national legislations at this point.
> The situation when the seller is outside of EU is a bit unclear, but a chargeback has been known to motivate companies to do the right thing. There is absolutely no problem in doing one if you're not a regular labeled as such by your bank. All the chargeback costs will be billed to the offending company, too.



Not sure how it would work outside of the US, but that seems kind of mind boggling in this case. Option 50's carry with them a sort of "contract" that says they are non-returnable. If you buy something and you sign a contract of some kind/agree to the terms, you're bound to that contract/those terms. You can return a faulty product. A twisted neck, frets popping out, missing parts, etc, are all defects the factory is responsible for. A color being different from what you expected is not grounds for a factory defect. 

At this point, if they give a refund/accept the return, it's well above what they should be required to do.

edit: As an example, let's say some guy orders from kiesel. He litters the build with option 50's (including a color) and decides later that he would have rather kept the money. It would be asinine if all it took was a "this color looks nothing like what I expected, give me a refund" complaint to bypass the agreement. Then Kiesel is out of a bunch of money for doing things that are not standard. If we seriously complain too heavily about things like this, then they'll just end up taking op50's away altogether to avoid the whole issue altogether. Again, if you don't want to risk things, then don't get an option 50.


----------



## Rev2010

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, FB is like wandering into a psychopath ward. Zero empathy, and a lot of frightening aggression.



Well, I also got torn a new one on here when I posted my really upset NGD about Carvin completely missing the spalted maple photo match on my DC800. I know spalted maple is harder to match, I wasn't expecting an actual "match" of course, just highly figured with as little flame as possible. The neg rep comments I got were just... wow! 

I was actually thinking about getting the red/black two-tone finish I've dreamt about for a while now on another DC800. After this I think I will no doubt be passing on Carvin/Keisel. I've also read of so many flaws recently, seemingly due to the ramped up production - which also boggles my mind cause prices now are noticeably higher, closer to getting a custom through some other luthiers.

I also asked about getting the originally offered active pickups, since they now include passives, and was told it's an additional $150. Why? They have the program and used to do actives on all their DC800's. And to think I would just pull out their pickups anyway and put in EMG's (another almost $200) it's just a waste of money.

Sorry to hear of this OP. Truly sorry to have to read this. BTW, I'd also like to add to ShadeOGreen's sentiment that it would be good to see some better pics. Looking at your original it's easy to see by the headstock alone that the pic is way overblown in contrast. Not challenging your issue, not at all. I'd just think a better picture would be good to have posted.


Rev.


----------



## Konstantine

I'm going to have to take a temporary break from the Internet due to the sheer amount of spam attack messages I'm receiving from complete strangers for complaining about this. Are people that brand devoted and brainwashed? I didn't get an emailed receipt pdf for the second rebuild either....


----------



## narad

Not sure why everyone's quoting the no returns on op-50 policy. The point is that this finish (currently) appears so far off from the photo that one could argue that it's not what the OP ordered. If OP ordered a vader and was delivered this instead, would they still be like, "yea, dude, we tried to make you a vader but the CNC machine was already setup and anyway, there you go - we did our best!" No, you'd say, "that's not what I ordered."

Could we some less exposed, soft natural light photos, OP?

I actually have a guitar with the type of finish this appears to be, and similarly I'd not have accepted it if it came out looking like the Agile (though that guitar looks fantastic). It's just not what I ordered:



Picture 077 by Jason Naradowsky, on Flickr

I asked for natural->blue burst. OP shows greenish-blue->blue burst. I'll hold my judgement until there are more pics, but from the current post it looks more like flat-out the wrong finish than a poorly-executed correct type of finish (not that either are great options!)


----------



## SnowfaLL

Konstantine said:


> I'm going to have to take a temporary break from the Internet due to the sheer amount of spam attack messages I'm receiving from complete strangers for complaining about this. Are people that brand devoted and brainwashed? I didn't get an emailed receipt pdf for the second rebuild either....



While I don't agree with people bugging you, every opt 50 is non-returnable if you just "dont think it looks right" - ESPECIALLY choosing a completely different type of wood, you shouldn't expect an exact result.


----------



## Nag

We should make a sticky thread with a list of all the custom/semi-custom builders we know, and strike out all the names that have proven to be unreliable. The list would end up quite short...


----------



## SnowfaLL

Nagash said:


> We should make a sticky thread with a list of all the custom/semi-custom builders we know, and strike out all the names that have proven to be unreliable. The list would end up quite short...



It would be 0. Every single builder makes mistakes, no one is perfect.


----------



## Five Ten

I messed around briefly in photoshop. Not sure how accurate the colors are, but I find it interesting that it looks like it's natural to blue and not pale blue to darker blue.







Unfortunately, and I hate agreeing with it, but it looks like they made an honest, albeit poor, attempt at the color. It's not like you asked for blue and got pink. Unfortunately when you get option 50's, custom colors being exactly how you hoped is not covered.

Huge bummer, but it kind of comes with the territory. I know I'd feel let down, but I also wouldn't be expecting them to refund me anything. I likely wouldn't order anything from them again though that's for sure. At least nothing that can't be returned.


----------



## Nag

SnowfaLL said:


> It would be 0. Every single builder makes mistakes, no one is perfect.




I didn't say "not perfect", I said "unreliable".

Daemoness probably has made a mistake once. He's still incredibly popular because he does stellar work, and he's reliable. And I'm sure he'd stand by his product and correct a mistake if a customer noticed something wrong.

Just as an example. Not every brand would do that. Kiesel just showed us.


----------



## laxu

Yeah that's some shoddy work for sure and very disappointing. I didn't do any photomatching, but did send a Photoshop mockup to Kiesel and the guitar I ended up with looks pretty much exactly as the mockup I supplied. Granted that it's using their standard colors but I asked for dark red mahogany and they definitely delivered on that.

I would not accept that as it's clearly nothing like what you wanted.


----------



## Rawkmann

Add me to the 'Never Again' pile regarding Kiesel/Carvin. I had bad experiences last year with them, received a subpar guitar with fundamental problems, sent it back for repair and they basically just put a metaphorical band-aid on the problems and sent it back. I sold it off (for a loss) and vowed to just stay away from them from then on.


----------



## sullyman89

That is pretty off man. I love my Kiesel/Carvins but I can't deny that's lame on their end


----------



## Andromalia

Señor Voorhees;4569037 said:


> A color being different from what you expected is not grounds for a factory defect.



Uh, sorry, but if I order a blue guitar and get a yellow one that certainly is going back. It's not like the seller can't tell me he can't do a blue one when I order.



> I'm going to have to take a temporary break from the Internet due to the sheer amount of spam attack messages I'm receiving from complete strangers for complaining about this. Are people that brand devoted and brainwashed?


I vote on Carvin employees not reveealing their affiliation trying to bully you. That kind of thing has sadly become commonplace in the internet, with companies hiring "community managers" for that kind of job.


----------



## Konstantine

Hachetjoel said:


> Kiesel has no intention of resolving this so I would go ahead and do a Chargeback through your bank or cc company depending on who you used. You should be able to get your money back fairly easily.



the problem with that is that the majority of the payment (about 2200 dollars) was done on the initial build and not refunded since it was used for the rebuild, and that payment was sent back in january I think which was months ago now. I wouldn't be able to charge back that would I? I sent an additional payment to cover the extra cost of the photomatch finish recently but that payment was only 300 something odd dollars.


----------



## Arkeion

I think the guitar you received is ugly as fvck, and I'd be pissed if they told me they thought it even _remotely_ looked like the finish you requested.


----------



## Konstantine

I think the side by side comparison illustrates clearly enough that the match was off the mark by a long shot but people are asking for additional pics so here are some from the reverb listing I made...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

It doesn't even look that good, at least in my opinion. I was hoping it would look good even though the finish isn't exact, but it doesn't really look good IMO. The finish looks MUCH better on the Agile.


----------



## Konstantine

I'm going to contact Ricardo at customer service this coming monday afternoon and see if Jeff will take 3 minutes of his time to hear me out.


----------



## Nag

What they should do for custom finishes, color matches etc is just, make a small sample of it, show it to the customer, get it right, and then reproduce it on the guitar. and yeah, if that costs a bit more, charge a bit more, but have a happier customer.


----------



## MrWulf

The light blue in the Agile is much better than this blue in the Kiesel.
Welp. Gonna go with Agile next time if I want anything custom.


----------



## mystix

Sorry to hear about your troubles. What are the specs on this? Looks nice but i don't see how it costs $2400


----------



## Konstantine

mystix said:


> Sorry to hear about your troubles. What are the specs on this? Looks nice but i don't see how it costs $2400



per the build sheet that came in the box with it:

7 string passive 969
burl maple top 400
burl headstock 80
luminlays 30
body binding 80
photomatch 300
tone delete 3 way blade 80
painted satin neck 120
clear maple neck/mahog 50 not sure why thats even on the list?
blk sides with blk burst bk 50 
stainless steel jb 40
blk hrdw 30 
drop logo 20 
case 60
7 inline revr 40

adds up to 2349 dollars before taxes, after taxes it came out to 2513 dollars and 43 cents. I got killed, in the sense I paid even more to specifically have the finish match and now I not only got stuck paying a substantial upcharge but paid it for a finish that doesn't match what I asked for, I didn't receive any warnings or contact from them stating they felt they couldnt come close to pulling it off and advise me to try going with something else.


----------



## Bdtunn

If anything refund the colour match and top charge as they were both lack lustre.


----------



## Warg Master

Well, that's disappointing... I have some money wrapped up in a couple of builds with kiesel. ....


----------



## mystix

Konstantine said:


> per the build sheet that came in the box with it:
> 
> 7 string passive 969
> burl maple top 400
> burl headstock 80
> luminlays 30
> body binding 80
> photomatch 300
> tone delete 3 way blade 80
> painted satin neck 120
> clear maple neck/mahog 50 not sure why thats even on the list?
> blk sides with blk burst bk 50
> stainless steel jb 40
> blk hrdw 30
> drop logo 20
> case 60
> 7 inline revr 40
> 
> adds up to 2349 dollars before taxes, after taxes it came out to 2513 dollars and 43 cents. I got killed, in the sense I paid even more to specifically have the finish match and now I not only got stuck paying a substantial upcharge but paid it for a finish that doesn't match what I asked for, I didn't receive any warnings or contact from them stating they felt they couldnt come close to pulling it off and advise me to try going with something else.



That's rough. I'm a big fan of the company and I actually placed an order for an Aries yesterday. Luckily, if I'm not happy with mine I can return it. I'm sorry about what you're going through. There are a lot of fantastic guitars in that price range and I'm sorry that you had to deal with this issue


----------



## Nag

for that price I'd have sent the cash to Mayones. they have a similar finish and AFAIK they make a much better product overall


----------



## protest

marcwormjim said:


> Chargeback?



Yep. 

OP did you use a credit card? Thev words "charge back" can usually get a company that's being uncooperative to play ball.


----------



## Warg Master

Rev2010 said:


> I was actually thinking about getting the red/black two-tone finish I've dreamt about for a while now on another DC800.



This is what I did on an a7 in a kiesel Edition. I placed my order before all of these problems surfaced. Hopefully I should be okay since it will have Jeff's attention directly... I guess we will se... I also have just a regular order I there, so we'll see both sides I guess...


----------



## cip 123

The Agile goes from Blue to light teal the Kiesel just goes straight to white it looks like?!? So glad I didn't commit to a Kiesel and Glad people are talking about their flaws now.

Hope something works out for you dude!


----------



## pondman

Nagash said:


> We should make a sticky thread with a list of all the custom/semi-custom builders we know, and strike out all the names that have proven to be unreliable. The list would end up quite short...



Somebody tried that once and just about every guitar builder out there ended up on it


----------



## Mattykoda

Maybe they just didn't have the right tools to do this correctly. Fast forward six months with a video stating how before they just couldn't do it, it cost a lot to "tool up for it" but now they can do accurate color matching haha


----------



## Warg Master

Konstantine said:


> I'm going to have to take a temporary break from the Internet due to the sheer amount of spam attack messages I'm receiving from complete strangers for complaining about this. Are people that brand devoted and brainwashed? I didn't get an emailed receipt pdf for the second rebuild either....



This kind of .... is prosecutible. This behavior shouldn't be acceptable. If it is an employee, bare minimum firable...


----------



## Xaios

There was a time when Carvin was a rock of stability in a sea of unreliable luthiers. So much for that.

Hopefully when they notice that this thread contains a bunch of posts from people who were previously loyal customers saying that they're not going to be considering Carvin for future purchases because of how their reputability has fallen off a cliff, it will give them some impetus to get their house in order.


----------



## JSanta

I saw the original post last night before it was removed and SSO was basically represented as a joke. I doubt they care too much about what's going on in this thread.


----------



## big_aug

I feel like they tried but it just didn't come out right. With opt 50 I don't think a return is reasonable. Refunding the upcharge for the photomatch might be something you can get. That's what I'd shoot for because its reasonable and they might go for it to put the issue to rest.

By the way, you can't just do a chargeback for something without consequences. That will return your money, but then a debt is owed to the company because your payment was withdrawn. They could send it to collection.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Andromalia said:


> Uh, sorry, but if I order a blue guitar and get a yellow one that certainly is going back. It's not like the seller can't tell me he can't do a blue one when I order.



Yeah, and that's the problem. He didn't order blue and get yellow, he ordered blue and got a blue guitar. It was just not nearly as nice as the guitar he wanted it to match. They clearly TRIED to match it, it's just an ugly attempt.

I swear I'm not defending Kiesel. That is a truly embarrassing attempt at matching the Agile's finish. With the amount of weirdness coming out of that factory, I'm not likely to buy another. (I think I'll consider myself lucky with the two I have.) I just don't think there are legal grounds to do dick about it. OP paid to have them attempt a certain finish to the best of their abilities. An option that you go into knowing it voids the return policy. They delivered, though obviously poorly.

Morally, they need to at least give him the up-charge back. (or, if OP wants, just refund/return.) I'd never take somebodies money if I botched my job that badly. But legally, and by their policy, they don't have to do ..... Which if they don't just says more about them than they think.

TL;DR It's ....ed up, but I don't think there's much you can do. Kiesel needs to get their head out of their ass and understand that there are exceptions to rules. OP isn't just somebody who decided he'd rather have the money and try to return an op50. Honestly, if it were my business, this would be an instance of me saying "I'm sorry we couldn't deliver something you were happy with, how can we make this right?"


----------



## cip 123

Señor Voorhees;4569187 said:


> "I'm sorry we couldn't deliver something you were happy with, how can we make this right?"



That is exactly how they should be handling it. Jeffs motto is Custom Shop Pride along with 10 others he uses for marketing. 

Can he really look at that guitar and say he's proud of the finish?


----------



## jc986

big_aug said:


> I feel like they tried but it just didn't come out right. With opt 50 I don't think a return is reasonable. Refunding the upcharge for the photomatch might be something you can get. That's what I'd shoot for because its reasonable and they might go for it to put the issue to rest.
> 
> By the way, you can't just do a chargeback for something without consequences. That will return your money, but then a debt is owed to the company because your payment was withdrawn. They could send it to collection.



Not if you return the item in question. Of course they would pursue some sort of action if you do a chargeback and just keep the guitar. That's theft.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Same as mentioned above in regards to considering myself lucky that I have 2 that are absolutely awesome. Just so turned off seeing so many issues from customers. No plans to buy another K/C regardless of what others deem to be acceptable protocol regarding compensation on this particular axe. 

It's not only the deplorable color-match attempt, but the burst itself is so weak as well as the burl. Never seen a burl that was so subtle... and not subtle in a good way obviously. It's not just due to the color-match issue. 

I just hope OP finds resolve that will prove satisfactory. I hate seeing someone spend a good deal of money and ultimately feel that the job wasn't executed in the way that they expected it to be. Just plain sucks.


----------



## jc986

JSanta said:


> I saw the original post last night before it was removed and SSO was basically represented as a joke. I doubt they care too much about what's going on in this thread.



They try very hard to marginalize this forum. Many of the members of that Facebook group just follow their blind fanboism without looking at things objectively. 

I still like Kiesel, but it's really bad business to allow even a single customer to be attacked in public forum simply for being dissatisfied with an objectively poor job on a color match. Not to mention the first guitar the guy received never should have went out the door for multiple defects. It just shows how rushed they must be. Their business has exploded with orders and they are simply not making the necessary steps to keep up with the orders while maintaining good quality control. They have one guy in charge of inspecting and setting up every guitar that goes out the door. They are shipping roughly 330 guitars a month on average. That's too much work for one guy to effectively do final setup and QC.


----------



## cip 123

While he is a shady dude, discussing him and other groups will get you a warning, jc986, heads up.


----------



## jc986

cip 123 said:


> While he is a shady dude, discussing him and other groups will get you a warning, jc986, heads up.



Edited to protect previously mentioned shady dude....thanks for the head's up. Just thought it would help people who didn't know get the full picture.


----------



## oneblackened

jc986 said:


> They have one guy in charge of inspecting and setting up every guitar that goes out the door. They are shipping roughly 330 guitars a month on average.



If we work this out to a 9 hour day, five days a week, and about 5 weeks per month, that's about 40 minutes per guitar.

That's insane. Even the most experienced techs I've worked with take at least an hour or so to set everything correctly.


----------



## cip 123

jc986 said:


> Edited to protect previously mentioned shady dude....thanks for the head's up. Just thought it would help people who didn't know get the full picture.



It's an annoyance on this forum as it doesn't allow us to warn people, but rules is rules.


----------



## Sermo Lupi

Just read through the whole thread, what a mess. 

Seems the best solution here would be to have the guitar sent back and refinished, perhaps in a colour Kiesel is better capable of producing, and the 'extra' money from the colour match surcharge could be used for the shipping costs (because clearly they didn't use it for the intended purpose of colour matching...). 

The real shame is that the finish doesn't look particularly good as-is. The colour doesn't match the source image at all obviously, but even on it's own this looks like a guitar that shouldn't have left the shop. The 'white' centre (which was supposed to be teal?) looks a lot like some kind of primer, and the burst almost looks like it was spraypainted on. The colour gradient has virtually no gradation to it, and what's maybe worst of all, the finish obscures the figure of the wood. You can see from the pics on the last page that the piece of burl they used is actually quite figured and would probably look great under another finish, but it's totally lost in this so-called oceanburst. 

Not to be patronising, but you'd think that Kiesel would understand their customers want their guitars to look good as they leave the shop, even if they're not 100% true to the customer's vision. If the colour match was off a bit I'd understand it, but they basically pushed out a guitar that looks terrible and afterward told the owner 'sorry, it's what you ordered, it's not our fault your chosen finish looks bad' when he complained. I mean, he paid you extra to have a specialty finish put on the guitar...what are the chances he's not going to care when you muck it up and try to make him live with the mess you've given him? Is 'we tried' really a valid defense here? And saying that the wood didn't take the finish very well (and not informing the customer beforehand that that might happen) is no excuse either, the guitar shouldn't have left the shop in the state that it's in. It just reflects poorly on Carvin/Kiesel's QC. 

I'm not really on board with the chargeback brigade, but something needs to be done here. Sorry to hear you've been put in this position. Be understanding of Kiesel's position too obviously, but try to negotiate a refinish if you can. Even a partial refund isn't going to give you much solace when you have to look at that disaster of a finish every day for years to come.


----------



## KieselGuitars

Hey guys,
I did the finish myself and attached is what it actually looks like, because this customer selected a wood (Burl) that is much darker and more brown in color than the flamed maple used in the original image - it can't be matched 100%. But we all were very happy with my match. This guy has talked with three of my guys and one of them several times last week. We will not be refunding this and if he does not like the guitar he can sell it and move on. We do our best and we stand behind our work, all photo matches are our best attempts and I stand behind this one. Thanks for reading my side.

Jeff Kiesel


----------



## Xaios




----------



## jc986

KieselGuitars said:


> Hey guys,
> I did the finish myself and attached is what it actually looks like, because this customer selected a wood (Burl) that is much darker and more brown in color than the flamed maple used in the original image - it can't be matched 100%. But we all were very happy with my match. This guy has talked with three of my guys and one of them several times last week. We will not be refunding this and if he does not like the guitar he can sell it and move on. We do our best and we stand behind our work, all photo matches are our best attempts and I stand behind this one. Thanks for reading my side.
> 
> Jeff Kiesel



I think the finish looks cool, but I don't think it's close to what the customer requested. To me it looks like a white to blue burst when the photo used for a match was considerably darker in the middle. You guys have done colors over burled maple before so getting some color in the center shouldn't have been outside the realm of possibility. Thanks for chiming in with your side though.


----------



## RevelGTR

Many people seem happy with their Kiesels, and there were many positive aspects of the Vader I had, but ultimately the noticeably crooked logo, two large chunks out of the fretboard, and sloppy lines on the natural back/painted top were enough for me to return it. Hope this works out.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Yeah, that was my thoughts. It looks cool, but not even close to what was requested. Like you said, its white to blue, not teal to blue. 

Id personally love it, fwiw.


----------



## MoshJosh

Can someone with photo skills just chop out the middle colors of the bursts? The provided image looks to be blue/green while the end result is almost white right?


----------



## MoonJelly

Kiesel has grown so much as a brand this past couple years, I think the problems that are cropping up with their QC/QA is a symptom of that. _Most _of the time I hear high praise for their gear....but with their production volume going up, up, up, I'm not surprised at all to see customers that feel dissatisfied with the product, service, etc.

Not saying small builders are immune to these problems, tho.


----------



## ElRay

KieselGuitars said:


> Hey guys,
> I did the finish myself and attached is what it actually looks like, ...


OK, but I still don't see any "green" in the middle. The original picture did not go to white/natural in the middle.


KieselGuitars said:


> ... because this customer selected a wood (Burl) that is much darker and more brown in color than the flamed maple used in the original image - it can't be matched 100%. But we all were very happy with my match. ...


Y'all may be happy, and it is a nice (although a bit thin) white/natural to blue burst, but it's very obviously not what was requested.


----------



## Mattykoda

Defective first build, miss match on second I'd at least try to meet the customer half way considering the wait, money spent and harassment he's received for a simple post but that's just my 

OP I truly wish you are able to sell that guitar for close to what you payed and get the guitar you deserve some day.


----------



## Rollandbeast

I wouldnt even call this a color match lol 
I feel sorry for u op


----------



## cip 123

It still looks like a blue to white fade instead of a blue to light teal...

I do respect that they've taken a firm stance and are sticking to it, but that I wouldn't call that a Colour Match. 

Not sure how the wood being darker means the center should come out white.


----------



## Nag

cip 123 said:


> Not sure how the wood being darker means the center should come out white.


----------



## cip 123

Nagash said:


>



I mean, how can Jeff say the darker wood affects the finish when its been sprayed clearly in what basically looks white, when the original picture is teal/green.


----------



## Nag

cip 123 said:


> I mean, how can Jeff say the darker wood affects the finish when its been sprayed clearly in what basically looks white, when the original picture is teal/green.




I know, I was trying to lulz 

it's funny because we're not even saying the finish is crappy, it's an okayish blue to white burst, it's just NOT a blue to teal burst, which is ridiculous considering it's supposed to be a "matched finish"


----------



## cslushy

Nagash said:


> for that price I'd have sent the cash to Mayones. they have a similar finish and AFAIK they make a much better product overall



Curious where and how are you getting a Mayones for under 3k usd?


----------



## bpprox22

It seems like all I ever hear now is how Kiesel's CS is garbage and about the unwillingness to reason with unhappy customers. I've never been a fanboy of Kiesel/Carvin but these kinds of situations sure don't persuade me to be.


----------



## russmuller

KieselGuitars said:


> Hey guys,
> I did the finish myself and attached is what it actually looks like, because this customer selected a wood (Burl) that is much darker and more brown in color than the flamed maple used in the original image - it can't be matched 100%. But we all were very happy with my match. This guy has talked with three of my guys and one of them several times last week. We will not be refunding this and if he does not like the guitar he can sell it and move on. We do our best and we stand behind our work, all photo matches are our best attempts and I stand behind this one. Thanks for reading my side.
> 
> Jeff Kiesel



What a disappointing response. I understand that you need to stick to your guns on certain policies, but the "darker" wood thing here doesn't make a lick of sense since the problem is that it's significantly whiter than it should be. 

I'm not saying I'll never buy another Kiesel again because I've bought two and they are great guitars. Chris Hong made dealing with Kiesel a wonderful experience for me. But after this, I'm never going to order one with a custom finish if that's the kind of work and customer service you're proud to stand behind.

I think at this point, it's an unfortunate circumstance for all parties involved.


----------



## MFB

KieselGuitars said:


> We will not be refunding this and if he does not like the guitar he can sell it and move on.



You mean sell his brand new guitar for a considerable loss on the market because you didn't deliver on what he actually wanted after the first one was also flawed?

That sounds more like it would actually be.


----------



## jc986

russmuller said:


> What a disappointing response. I understand that you need to stick to your guns on certain policies, but the "darker" wood thing here doesn't make a lick of sense since the problem is that it's significantly whiter than it should be.
> 
> I'm not saying I'll never buy another Kiesel again because I've bought two and they are great guitars. Chris Hong made dealing with Kiesel a wonderful experience for me. But after this, I'm never going to order one with a custom finish if that's the kind of work and customer service you're proud to stand behind.
> 
> I think at this point, it's an unfortunate circumstance for all parties involved.



Agreed completely. I would never consider doing anything outside of what they consider a standard option. The complete lack of care about whether the customer is satisfied is astonishing. I completely get the no returns on option 50's policy with regard to outlandish finishes & options that no other customer would want, but I don't think this finish would prevent the guitar from being purchased in the Guitars In Stock section. I think accepting a return for option 50's should be handled on a case by case basis, and certainly with the stipulation that the rebuild be done with the regularly available colors so you don't end up in a situation where the customer keeps having the custom finish re-done. Perhaps even charge a 20-30% restocking fee.


----------



## RUSH_Of_Excitement

I'm still just genuinely confused as to how a presumably darker wood, leads to a white center (much lighter than the desired color) and why one couldn't paint teal over that?


----------



## russmuller

jc986 said:


> Agreed completely. I would never consider doing anything outside of what they consider a standard option. The complete lack of care about whether the customer is satisfied is astonishing. I completely get the no returns on option 50's policy with regard to outlandish finishes & options that no other customer would want, but I don't think this finish would prevent the guitar from being purchased in the Guitars In Stock section. I think accepting a return for option 50's should be handled on a case by case basis, and certainly with the stipulation that the rebuild be done with the regularly available colors so you don't end up in a situation where the customer keeps having the custom finish re-done. Perhaps even charge a 20-30% restocking fee.



Or at least offering to refinish the guitar.

I don't want to hate on Kiesel at all, and it's a fine line to walk between trying to keep all your customers happy vs letting them walk all over you and waste your time/effort. I'm just surprised that they (AFAIK) have not offered any alternative resolutions.


----------



## cip 123

russmuller said:


> Chris Hong.



The real mvp at carvin though. Chris is a delight to deal with.


----------



## cardinal

Diappointing response from Kiesel. 

1) the color is not even close
2) it may have come out lighter because he overcompensated for the darker burl wood
3) if the burl was that different from the flame maple in the pictures, Kiesel shouldn't have agreed to do the color match option. Never fun to say "no" to a guy that wants to give you money, but I'm not sure what they were expecting to happen if they agreed to do a color match but couldn't get close to the color. 

4) admittedly, I just scanned the thread at this point, but this already was a rebuild? Was the color closer on the first one? If not, wasn't that a huge red flag? If so, why did it get worse on the second attempt? Kinda confused about that.


----------



## russmuller

RUSH_Of_Excitement said:


> I'm still just genuinely confused as to how a presumably darker wood, leads to a white center (much lighter than the desired color) and why one couldn't paint teal over that?



To my eye, it seems like it would have been MUCH closer if they'd done their DTS process to bring out the grain and give some more light/dark contrast to the figuring. But I wasn't there, and maybe they DID do that. I dunno, but I can totally understand the OP's frustration. It's sad to see that it looks like he won't get a resolution.


----------



## russmuller

cip 123 said:


> The real mvp at carvin though. Chris is a delight to deal with.



100%


----------



## jc986

cardinal said:


> Diappointing response from Kiesel.
> 
> 4) admittedly, I just scanned the thread at this point, but this already was a rebuild? Was the color closer on the first one? If not, wasn't that a huge red flag? If so, why did it get worse on the second attempt? Kinda confused about that.



The original guitar wasn't ordered with a custom finish. It was ordered with a standard aquaburst, but OP decided to pay the upcharge for the custom photo match finish for his rebuild.


----------



## russmuller

cardinal said:


> 4) admittedly, I just scanned the thread at this point, but this already was a rebuild? Was the color closer on the first one? If not, wasn't that a huge red flag? If so, why did it get worse on the second attempt? Kinda confused about that.



The first guitar was not a photomatch. It had other QC flaws and was sent back. OP upped the ante by paying extra to photomatch the finish since the original aquaburst was a lot darker than he expected (I had the same thing on mine, the FB pics are not to be trusted).


----------



## dormer

Jeff's picture definitely looks less washed out and closer, but still.

What color is the center of the Kiesel? White, maybe some natural?
What color is the center of the Agile? Teal, light blue?

It's similar, yeah, but I'd have a hard time considering that an attempted match -- it looks like they flat out used a different color for the center.


----------



## dormer

Konstantine said:


> I'm going to have to take a temporary break from the Internet due to the sheer amount of spam attack messages I'm receiving from complete strangers for complaining about this. Are people that brand devoted and brainwashed? I didn't get an emailed receipt pdf for the second rebuild either....



On Facebook? Screenshot and report that stuff.


----------



## Adam Of Angels

What's weird is that even though the color match fell short because of the chosen wood being darker, the finish turned out lighter than desired... but, either way, the finish work could have entailed adjustments/compensation to get the color right. Its not as if he applied the exact finish that Agile used, and then came out with a different shade due to the darker wood. He was starting from scratch, so why not go through the necessary process of testing the stain on a spare piece of wood to make sure that it turns out right? I'm guessing the answer is that they're taking far too many orders to nail every detail... but that's not a sufficient excuse, considering that the return policy is uncompromising. I think the solution is to compensate this customer to his satisfaction, and then no longer offer "photo matched" colors, unless a serious reconstruction of the building/business process is implemented. Just my opinion. Whatever happens, I hope there are no more stories like this.


----------



## itsallinmyh3ad

After reading how they just turned their backs at their client, with "if he doesnt like it, he can just sell and move along", I can say without a doubt in my mind that I will NOT be supporting this company any further.

Kiesel may be happy with how the guitar turned out, but that is not even close to the requested color. Not only that, but they come out and just basically spit at his face with those expressions. Customers are what makes a business. Without them, there IS no business.

OP, I sincerely hope this gets taken care of, one way or the other.


----------



## xzacx

It's ironic that Jeff had probably lost more money on sales due to this thread than had he just worked with the OP towards a solution. But then, to make things worse, he offers his own photographic proof of what a poor job they did, an excuse that makes sense to no one, implication that they got close (by saying they can't match 100%...as if they even got in the ballpark), and basically complained about the OP by mentioning that he'd called three times. This is definitely a lesson in how not to deal with things.


----------



## btbg

Adam Of Angels said:


> What's weird is that even though the color match fell short because of the chosen wood being darker, the finish turned out lighter than desired... but, either way, the finish work could have entailed adjustments/compensation to get the color right. Its not as if he applied the exact finish that Agile used, and then came out with a different shade due to the darker wood. He was starting from scratch, so why not go through the necessary process of testing the stain on a spare piece of wood to make sure that it turns out right? I'm guessing the answer is that they're taking far too many orders to nail every detail... but that's not a sufficient excuse, considering that the return policy is uncompromising. I think the solution is to compensate this customer to his satisfaction, and then no longer offer "photo matched" colors, unless a serious reconstruction of the building/business process is implemented. Just my opinion. Whatever happens, I hope there are no more stories like this.



That would make sense. "Oh, crap, we frigged this one up. We need to make this right and then prevent it from happening in the future."


----------



## jc986

Reputation is all that Kiesel has to go on too, so I'm shocked at the disregard for customer satisfaction. It's not like people can go to a store and try out a Kiesel. It's all based on word of mouth, forums like these, and marketing. Their marketing blitz will only get them so far if this is how they deal with issues that come up. This thread has had over 7,000 unique views. I would imagine that more than a few potential customers have reconsidered going with a Kiesel build, especially after Jeff chimed in with his side of the story, which is basically "We've got your money and contractually don't have to do anything for you, so we won't."


----------



## Mathemagician

I just spec'd out and ordered an Agile today instead of a Karvin, since I wasn't ordering anything that "interesting" and just need a "value" guitar. And when I decide to actually go full-custom I'll be skipping the mid-tier stuff and dropping the required cash for what I want. Seems Karvin is happy sitting in the "you get what you pay for" camp like Agile. This thread and the few others with issues literally saved me a ton of money on a budget guitar. 

And if Jeff reads this: Don't EVER complain about "how many calls" a paying client sends. That's just crass. OP could have been an OCD whiner, but no matter what, whining about a customer makes the business look worse.


----------



## Erockomania

KieselGuitars said:


> Hey guys,
> I did the finish myself and attached is what it actually looks like, because this customer selected a wood (Burl) that is much darker and more brown in color than the flamed maple used in the original image - it can't be matched 100%. But we all were very happy with my match. This guy has talked with three of my guys and one of them several times last week. We will not be refunding this and if he does not like the guitar he can sell it and move on. We do our best and we stand behind our work, all photo matches are our best attempts and I stand behind this one. Thanks for reading my side.
> 
> Jeff Kiesel



A ridiculous answer. Where is the green like in the orig photo? I've seen guitars FROM YOU that had that green... on burl. Take 10 seconds and look through your own facebook page. Also, yours is spray painted, not stained if I'm not mistaken. The $600 Agile is stained. 

You stand by your work on this one. Cool.

option 50 = we can screw you if we want.

Good Job Jeff.


----------



## big_aug

jc986 said:


> Not if you return the item in question. Of course they would pursue some sort of action if you do a chargeback and just keep the guitar. That's theft.



They don't have to take a return. You can't just mail it back and say you returned it. It doesn't work that way. They'd have to allow you to do so which they aren't doing. If he does a charge back, it will not go well for him.


----------



## Pav

I can't believe this thread is still open.

What's more, I can't believe Jeff (or his online equivalent) took the time to address all of this with a response that basically boils down to, "we did our best and if you don't like it, tough luck." Considering that this is the third Kiesel thread of this nature I've seen within the past few weeks, you'd think a company like this would be a little more forthcoming.

Also, this option 50 thing sounds a little ridiculous to me. You can return any guitars from them unless it was finished in a color they don't regularly offer? What ....ing difference does the color really make?  It sounds more their way out in case something like this happens - they tried a new color, got it wrong and refuse to take a hit on it.


----------



## Warg Master

Erockomania said:


> A ridiculous answer. Where is the green like in the orig photo? I've seen guitars FROM YOU that had that green... on burl. Take 10 seconds and look through your own facebook page. Also, yours is spray painted, not stained if I'm not mistaken. The $600 Agile is stained.



For what it's worth, Jeff has stated that burl doesn't take staining very well at all, it takes paint much better. Flamed maple takes stains very well.


----------



## Erockomania

Warg Master said:


> For what it's worth, Jeff has stated that burl doesn't take staining very well at all, it takes paint much better. Flamed maple takes stains very well.



But it's not true. Burl can be stained with excellent results. This is a fact. I actually think stain on burl looks 100% better than paint does. I have one on front of me that was stained and it's glorious. 

Also, there is not a trace of green in the "match" ... only a blue that isn't really similar either. A really, truly horrendous attempt. I honestly think they didn't even view the picture.


----------



## Warg Master

Erockomania said:


> But it's not true. Burl can be stained with excellent results. This is a fact. I actually think stain on burl looks 100% better than paint does. I have one on front of me that was stained and it's glorious.




Again, it's what he told me during inquiries about color on types of wood. One of the reasons I went with quilt. I agree that stain looks better than paint, I would say in ALL cases.


----------



## Mattykoda

Mods any reason as to why the picture I posted at the end of page one was deleted?


----------



## Xaios

Mattykoda said:


> Mods any reason as to why the picture I posted at the end of page one was deleted?



The link to the image still seems to be there in the code. It's possible that your image host is down.


----------



## Randy

Xaios said:


> The link to the image still seems to be there in the code. It's possible that your image host is down.



Pft, yeah... Imagehost is down, that's it.

BRB, cashing fat SSO/Kiesel paycheck...


----------



## Lemons

That's just poor work on the colour match, and poor customer service. That response from Jeff earlier in the thread is pathetic.


----------



## marcwormjim

On a positive front, it looks like I'll soon be able to buy some gorgeous, sweet-playing Kiesels on eBay and Reverb for even cheaper than usual.


----------



## Konstantine

I don't see why they can't just take it back. I see other opt 50 guitars in the GIS section on their website. Insulting me for trying to contact them and work it out without having to resort to the message boards is a pretty classy move too. Such a joke, I waited forever for this thing and now I'm basically being told to piss off. Kiesel and jeff can still make things right by giving me a store credit but it looks like they would rather take the substantial hit to their reputation as a company than have any morality and be a class act.


----------



## marcwormjim

Again, I propose a group-funding to reimburse this guy - Perhaps a raffle for the guitar?


----------



## Mattykoda

Randy said:


> Pft, yeah... Imagehost is down, that's it.
> 
> BRB, cashing fat SSO/Kiesel paycheck...


----------



## jwade

KieselGuitars said:


> But we all were very happy with my match.



Pesky customers, sending thousands of dollars and expecting the final product to be what they paid for. But hey, thank christ you guys are happy. That's definitely the most important part of the transaction.


----------



## Randy

Konstantine said:


> I don't see why they can't just take it back. I see other opt 50 guitars in the GIS section on their website. Insulting me for trying to contact them and work it out without having to resort to the message boards is a pretty classy move too. Such a joke, I waited forever for this thing and now I'm basically being told to piss off. Kiesel and jeff can still make things right by giving me a store credit but it looks like they would rather take the substantial hit to their reputation as a company than have any morality and be a class act.



Certainly a puzzling response, that's for sure.

First of all, they absolutely botched the color scheme to the point it's not even close to the source material. All the talk about the center and how burl takes stain, and spray versus stain and everything else... the color and execution of the burst isn't even close. I understand if 'photo match' means 'we do our best' but it's unarguably not even close by any measure.

For that, 'opt 50' or not, they should have given back all of your money.

What's surprising is not only their refusal to give a full refund, but refusing to offer you ANYTHING. I've posted before, I understand if 'opt 50' makes them less inclined to want to accept returns because if you choose a terribad color scheme or combination of features, it'll be a PITA to sell and they might have to take a hit; and it'd be kinda crappy for them to have a revolving door of guitars coming back over 'buyer's remorse' that they can't even give away. HOWEVER (reminder, I make this argument in a vacuum... this guitar deserves a full refund, period), if they're going to quibble over the resaleability of 'opt 50' guitars, they can at least offer a refund or credit in the neighborhood of what they'll fetch in the 'in stock' section. That'll at least be something and more than you'd get fending for yourself in the classifieds; and they don't "lose" anything.

Doubling down on offering nothing at all (both in this case and 'opt 50' in general) is a policy of PR suicide and will kill a brand, fast.


----------



## pondman

^ In a nut shell.


----------



## setsuna7

He can do all that amazing colors/tops/scheme for his artists, but he can't do a proper one for a paying customer? His answers are just mind boggling to say the least. Hopefully everything will be fine for OP.


----------



## Konstantine

setsuna7 said:


> He can do all that amazing colors/tops/scheme for his artists, but he can't do a proper one for a paying customer? His answers are just mind boggling to say the least. Hopefully everything will be fine for OP.



That's what I'm saying. I've seen aqua bursts done by them with deep triple stains and blue colors. All these excuses for why they made it washed out white are just that, excuses. I really appreciate your optimism.

I want to extend a thank you to all you guys on here for having my back and supporting me through this mess. $2500 dollars might not be much to some people, but for someone like me who works and goes to school full time, it's a huge deal.


I spent two entire years saving for a kiesel guitar and the first one had lots of flaws which I have not even posted pics of but I may end up posting here now. I decide to give them a second chance and this is how I end up getting treated by them, just extremely disappointing as I thought the guys at kiesel were stand up guys and I gave them the benefit of the doubt and instead was attacked, insulted and ridiculed, this is just beyond unprofessional at this point.


----------



## big_aug

From a business, stand point I get Jeff's position. I'm sure they tried their best. No legitinate company sets out to .... over, piss off, or rip off customers. They just don't. They probably even thought they did a good job. Now the color certainly doesn't match, but when you order something like this I feel like there has to be some acknowledgement that you aren't going to get what's in the picture. It sucks, but I think Kiesel is doing the right thing by refusing the return. Maybe it will even deter option 50s that they probably don't even want. Opt 50s are probably a total pain in their ass. Doing true custom .... costs them more and takes more time. 

A full refund is certainly not reasonable given the situation. A business does have to draw the line at some point. They ....ed it up the first time, so they rebuilt it. They missed on the color which was a possibility. It simply isn't a design/color that's in their wheelhouse. Kiesel is not where you go to get anything really custom. Its a cookie cutter business. When you ask them to go outside their operating area, things will happen.

I am no Kiesel owner nor have I ever ordered one.


Edit: I don't think Jeff was unprofessional or rude at all. Not getting what you want doesn't make someone rude or unprofessional. Maybe the phone conversations went differently though.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

A simple Google image search *"kiesel burl blue green"* returned these images:


















Granted, none of them is like the Agile Oceanburst, but I think the OP would have been much happier with any of the above. All of them were done with burled maple. So, I'm not really sure how to interpret Jeff's response. It's not like they's re not capable of doing better with burled maple.


----------



## big_aug

None of those are remotely close to the original agile. They're even more off than the one they made.


----------



## Pav

big_aug said:


> None of those are remotely close to the original agile. They're even more off than the one they made.



But they're at least fully colored from center to edge...and basically prove that they are capable of doing these types of burst finishes over a burled top. For them to say the big white cloud on his guitar is because he chose a burled top is just bull.....


----------



## fps

What is happening with Carvin/ Kiesel at the moment? They were always good guys in terms of their customer service and quality control, this is really disappointing, so sorry for OP, that isn't close and doesn't look like they tried very hard to make it close. Guitars at that price range are special things, they cost us a lot of money.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

FWIW, I actually like how it turned out. Definitely not a $2400 guitar level finish, but I do like it, if it plays well, you shouldn't have much trouble selling it, at least...

That's straight up not what you asked for, there are 2 colors in that Agile, and while they got 1 of them pretty much spot on, the other seems to just be absent entirely.

But I also totally understand what Kiesel is doing here. On top of being a full rebuild, they now put in an Opt. 50 color match, which is flat non-refundable. It doesn't come out the way it should have, they know that now, even if they don't want to admit it. I'm sure at the time they thought it looked alright. Client is not happy, wants _yet another_ refund. That'd leave them with 2 guitars that should have been sold that now aren't, one of which has no functional issues. I'd be amazed if he got a refund / rebuild credit. Matching a paint job / finish / stain is not exactly something that you can just follow a formula on too, so with a service like the color match, there _will_ be ones that just *dont* turn out right, and they shouldn't be at fault for that. 

IN ADDITION, the top plays a big part I think; the flame on the Agile lends itself much better to that style of look than a burled top would. Even if the color was spot on, the effect of the finish would look off still. 

What *should* have been done though, is either a refund for the upcharge on that color match or the top, or a re-finish. Even just a standard refinish. If either of these things were offered I'd stand behind Kiesel on this one. Even if Jeff's post was a bit...blunt.

To be honest OP, I'd be more pissed about that top. That was what, a $300? $400 upcharge? The burl vaneer on my $300 RG7421 looks nicer than that. Seems like a lackluster bit of wood.


----------



## A-Branger

really sorry to the OP for being at the wrong end of the lucky coin
Its a big grey line where you are standing and this time Kiesel are pushing you on the wrong side of it


I understand they "did their best", to color match the guitar but......

As Jeff showed us, they did took a photo of the guitar recently painted..... so why do they took that photo?.. insurance?, social media?.... so WHY not send that photo to the customer????. You are paying a hefty extra amount of cash for a "special color", right?, so theres a lot that could go wrong, so why do they have to wait till send the guitar to the high$$$ customer for them to "surprise", This is not regular cheap customer, this is top of the line $$$$$ customer who is paying all the extra money to get a one off guitar. So they could have send you that photo with "you like?", or at least send you all the blah blah explanation on the why it didnt work, so you can have two options, either take the guitar, or pay an extra cash to have it re-spray it on a standard color with some limitations due to the current finish or something like that.

this is a wrong move from Jeff IMO, they took the photo just after spray, they know it doesnt match. They could easily send you that with the explanation and ask you whats the next move before completing the guitar and ship it to you


----------



## A-Branger

Ordacleaphobia said:


> But I also totally understand what Kiesel is doing here. On top of being a full rebuild, they now put in an Opt. 50 color match, which is flat non-refundable. It doesn't come out the way it should have, they know that now, even if they don't want to admit it. I'm sure at the time they thought it looked alright. Client is not happy, wants _yet another_ refund. That'd leave them with 2 guitars that should have been sold that now aren't, one of which has no functional issues. I'd be amazed if he got a refund / rebuild credit. Matching a paint job / finish / stain is not exactly something that you can just follow a formula on too, so with a service like the color match, there _will_ be ones that just *dont* turn out right, and they shouldn't be at fault for that.



if you cant guarantee a "color match" option, then do not offer it on the first place. And if you do and cant deliver, do not trow it under the rug saying "it looks fine to me, I did my best"... there are ways to deal with that problem. The customer is in his all wright to complain since it do not match. If they match it but the customer didnt like it, that would be another issue.

Like I said, they took a photo just after paint, so why they couldnt send that photo to the OP with "we tried, I cant be done for what you are asking due to color/wood combo.... what do you want? keep it? or re-spray for $$? 



Ordacleaphobia said:


> What *should* have been done though, is either a refund for the upcharge on that color match or the top, or a re-finish. Even just a standard refinish. If either of these things were offered I'd stand behind Kiesel on this one. Even if Jeff's post was a bit...blunt.




^^ so much that. Thats what they should do instead of saying "no"


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

A-Branger said:


> if you cant guarantee a "color match" option, then do not offer it on the first place. And if you do and cant deliver, do not trow it under the rug saying "it looks fine to me, I did my best"... there are ways to deal with that problem. The customer is in his all wright to complain since it do not match. If they match it but the customer didnt like it, that would be another issue.
> 
> Like I said, they took a photo just after paint, so why they couldnt send that photo to the OP with "we tried, I cant be done for what you are asking due to color/wood combo.... what do you want? keep it? or re-spray for $$?



Not necessarily. 
People mess up on all aspects of the build all the time. Doesn't mean people just shouldn't fret guitars because a few come out with sharp ends. I'm sure Carvin / Kiesel have a healthy handful of customers that really, really loved the results from their photo matches. Anything that's hand-crafted or just done by hand in general cannot be guaranteed, especially with something like custom guitars, where profit margins are pretty thin. 

I do firmly agree on the photo though, it seems nonsensical to not send that same image to the OP before the guitar left the shop. That's just something builders typically...just do. "Oh hey Steve, I just finished painting your guitar, check this out, aren't you excited?" "Oh hey Mark, I got your frets installed. Doesn't this look slick?" "Electronics are all installed Rick, just waiting for Monday to get this sucker in the mail, get hype!" You see that allllll the time.

To bridge these two points, someone (I don't remember who, I just speed-read 8 pages) said that they should sample-spray a piece of wood before finishing the actual body, to send to the client for approval. I cannot for the life of me imagine why that isn't being done on all Option 50 photo matches. 

For something that's a significant upcharge and costs you the ability to return your order if you aren't happy with it, *especially* something that people get reaaaaalllly picky about (ESPECIALLY when the whole purpose of the option is basically saying 'No, I want *THIS* instead'), the cost of using a small sample just to cover your own ass seems worth it. Let alone the sense of security the customer feels.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Ordacleaphobia said:


> the cost of using a small sample just to cover your own ass seems worth it.



Covering your ass isn't really a concern when you can just refuse to rectify problems. 

When your idea of customer satisfaction and accountability is "If he doesn't like it, he can sell the guitar and move on," why bother doing test samples first?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Those burls up above have the grain darkened. That would make most/all colors much too dark. The weirdest part about the OP guitar is simply that they chose to use white and not teal. If the center was teal and not white, I think it would look sufficiently close to the Agile.


----------



## Blue1970Cutlass

These may be a bit darker but at least they're 'aqua' as opposed to white...











I guess I can't speak for the OP but I'd have been happier with something akin to this... seems like a better match to me at least


----------



## Chokey Chicken

You must not have read OP where he said he had a normal aquaburst and thought it was too dark so asked for it lighter on the rebuild.


----------



## narad

Ordacleaphobia said:


> To be honest OP, I'd be more pissed about that top. That was what, a $300? $400 upcharge? The burl vaneer on my $300 RG7421 looks nicer than that. Seems like a lackluster bit of wood.



To be fair, when you have that sort of white-haze finish, it doesn't give the burl a chance. And on the outside of the burl it's much more opaque so it doesn't let the burl show through there either. It's a massive upcharge for burl maple (compared to what you'd find yourself with $70 for a flat-top), but I don't think it's uncharacteristic for Kiesel's burl.


----------



## cip 123

Seems to me like the agile is straight up a light version of this colour, hell even just lighten the blue edges and you're almost there.The guitar received is just not there. I get they'll have a quote saying "We can't match 100%" but its not even close. How can #CustomShopPride Jeff Kiesel look at that and the original photo and say "Yup send 'er out"

Just to be clear to anyone reading. I'm not a Kiesel Hate fan, I was looking at buying one too. Not anymore.


----------



## mystix

I placed an order for an Aries the day before I read this thread. Had I read this before placing my order, I never would've placed the order. I'm a fan of this company but what is happened here has rubbed me the wrong way.


----------



## A-Branger

^^ those pics in there are actually a 90% photo match of the Agile. IF they had used a tad lighter blue on the burst it would be perfect. The only thing it trows you off is the darken of the grain. But focus on the stain itself and not on the dark/black/brown grain fill and its almost a photo match of the Agile.

and like you I call Bull$**$ on them not being able to replicate your color

I bet you they handed the job to the "new guy", who screwed up for X or Y reasons and Jeff as being the boss had to take the blame and say "it was me who did it"


----------



## russmuller

mystix said:


> I placed an order for an Aries the day before I read this thread. Had I read this before placing my order, I never would've placed the order. I'm a fan of this company but what is happened here has rubbed me the wrong way.



As long as you didn't pay an upcharge for a "hand picked" exotic top or a custom/photomatched finish, odds are you'll be thoroughly pleased with your instrument. There's always the chance that something might slip past QC, but by the numbers it's unlikely.

I definitely feel you though. I've been wanting a multiscale headless 8 string, and I've been stoked about the Ormsby Goliath ever since details started coming out. The only other competitor for something comparable in the sub-$2k category is the Vader Multiscale, and that's been a serious consideration. But I think this incident seals the deal for this purchase.

I'll consider buying a Kiesel again once I feel like their operations and attitude have caught up with their growth.


----------



## russmuller

A-Branger said:


> ^^ those pics in there are actually a 90% photo match of the Agile. IF they had used a tad lighter blue on the burst it would be perfect. The only thing it trows you off is the darken of the grain. But focus on the stain itself and not on the dark/black/brown grain fill and its almost a photo match of the Agile.
> 
> and like you I call Bull$**$ on them not being able to replicate your color
> 
> I bet you they handed the job to the "new guy", who screwed up for X or Y reasons and Jeff as being the boss had to take the blame and say "it was me who did it"



It should also be noted that Kiesel's photos are not taken under normal lighting and filtered. I'm all for doing what you can to get a great photo, but those finishes are a LOT darker in person.


----------



## jc986

It's too bad that under Jeff's leadership their philosophy of taking care of the customer seems to have changed. Here's a color match blunder that they actually resolved a couple years ago: KieselGuitarsBBS.com :: View topic - Got my option 50 CT but not crazy about the color match :-(


----------



## mystix

jc986 said:


> It's too bad that under Jeff's leadership their philosophy of taking care of the customer seems to have changed. Here's a color match blunder that they actually resolved a couple years ago: KieselGuitarsBBS.com :: View topic - Got my option 50 CT but not crazy about the color match :-(



Do you think that Jeff took it personally because he's the one who did the finish?


----------



## Randy

mystix said:


> Do you think that Jeff took it personally because he's the one who did the finish?


----------



## A-Branger

russmuller said:


> It should also be noted that Kiesel's photos are not taken under normal lighting and filtered. I'm all for doing what you can to get a great photo, but those finishes are a LOT darker in person.



I know, Im a photographer by trade  those photos have too much contrast, blacks added to make the grains "pop" and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much vignette, stupidly waaaaaay tooooooo muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhh


----------



## asher

A-Branger said:


> I know, Im a photographer by trade  those photos have too much contrast, blacks added to make the grains "pop" and waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much vignette, stupidly waaaaaay tooooooo muchhhhhhhhhhhhhhh



Instagrammification : experienced photographers :: noobs running way too much gain : experienced metallers 

But to be on topic: you've got my sympathies, man. Not that they mean much. But this is pretty kittened up.

At this point there's nothing Carvin does that I'd be seriously interested in (models/features wise), so saying "they'll never get my money!" rings kind of hollow. But were there, I'd still be staying far far away. 

Very disappointing.


----------



## Mattykoda

Awaiting a response from Jeff...


----------



## btbg

big_aug said:


> None of those are remotely close to the original agile. They're even more off than the one they made.



Nor is the colour match they provided.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Not bashing... just curious. And sorry to OP since a bit off-topic but look at the underside of the lower bout... Why does it look like that? Is it a lens filter? editing technique? Several gallery pics have that same appearance.


----------



## asher

Likely candidate: strong light from more or less behind the camera, hitting the lower bout at a very shallow angle, is already going to pick up a lot more of the white mat there and reflect it. Shadow of the bout is already going to be washed out, because the mat itself is going to be pretty bright. Take that and jack up the contrast, as is clearly done, and you blow out the highlights pretty badly.

The butt of the guitar is blending pretty well into the blue, too, for the same reason. I think that's getting even less light: look at how indistinct the shadow/edge line is.


----------



## RevelGTR

They definitely owe him the $300 back on the color match, at least.


----------



## Jonathan20022

High Plains Drifter said:


> Not bashing... just curious. And sorry to OP since a bit off-topic but look at the underside of the lower bout... Why does it look like that? Is it a lens filter? editing technique? Several gallery pics have that same appearance.



That's my guitar and it looks exactly like that in person. Albeit this isn't the best photo on my end but the only obvious editing on that is a slight bump in contrast and heavy vignette which doesn't exactly alter the way the focus of the photo looks.


----------



## High Plains Drifter

Thanks so much for the input. I knew it was someone's on here and it looks just as awesome in your pics. Just wondered why there are quite a few gallery-type pics from K/C with that same "fuzzy misty hazy" area around the lower edges.

Thanks too, asher. Appreciate the reply.


----------



## asher

Yeah, it's no crazy Photoshopping or photo compositing or anything 

That's a fantastic looking guitar by the way Jonathan!


----------



## russmuller

Mattykoda said:


> Awaiting a response from Jeff...



I think we're unlikely to hear more from Jeff on the issue. It sounds like he's thought it over, talked it over, made a decision, communicated it, and is moving on.


----------



## russmuller

Jonathan20022 said:


> That's my guitar and it looks exactly like that in person. Albeit this isn't the best photo on my end but the only obvious editing on that is a slight bump in contrast and heavy vignette which doesn't exactly alter the way the focus of the photo looks.



That's a great looking guitar. My DC7X looked pretty close to Carvin's photos if it had bright light directly on it, but under most normal conditions it was much darker.

Here's the FB version:





Here's what it looked like IRL:





I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong, but their photos are not a true representation of what you're going to see when you open the case for the first time.


----------



## element256

big_aug said:


> From a business, stand point I get Jeff's position. I'm sure they tried their best. No legitinate company sets out to .... over, piss off, or rip off customers. They just don't. They probably even thought they did a good job. Now the color certainly doesn't match, but when you order something like this I feel like there has to be some acknowledgement that you aren't going to get what's in the picture. It sucks, but I think Kiesel is doing the right thing by refusing the return. Maybe it will even deter option 50s that they probably don't even want. Opt 50s are probably a total pain in their ass. Doing true custom .... costs them more and takes more time.
> 
> A full refund is certainly not reasonable given the situation. A business does have to draw the line at some point. They ....ed it up the first time, so they rebuilt it. They missed on the color which was a possibility. It simply isn't a design/color that's in their wheelhouse. Kiesel is not where you go to get anything really custom. Its a cookie cutter business. When you ask them to go outside their operating area, things will happen.
> 
> I am no Kiesel owner nor have I ever ordered one.
> 
> 
> Edit: I don't think Jeff was unprofessional or rude at all. Not getting what you want doesn't make someone rude or unprofessional. Maybe the phone conversations went differently though.



If you don't want to build custom guitars then why promote yourself as a custom luthier with "American Made" quality?

One thing is ALWAYS true in business. The customer is always right.

If you say you can build it, then you should build it like the customer requested not "the best way you can"

I've seen this countless times from them, thankfully they have their fingers everywhere and are able to delete most of the threads and criticisms before they go viral to protect their image.


----------



## pondman

But not this time apparently.


----------



## zeropoint

Confirming the "this thread has cost more in potential sales than it would have to fix" comment - I've been mulling over the specifics of having a nightburst or aquaburst DC800 built lately, largely because it's proving very damn hard to find a reasonably priced mid-level 8-string to feel out in my neck of the woods that isn't "yet another black guitar" or using a stubby 25.5" scale length.

So damn close to pulling the trigger, but (whether I want a standard color or not), this thread has killed off 100% of the chances that it's going to happen.

Thanks, but I'll pay a bit more somewhere else and avoid the potential headaches.

I work in an industry where mistakes cost tens of times what this one would to fix - and the normal approach is to swallow pride and make it right, learn from the mistakes, and fix the root cause. This does not represent customer service that would be expected from anyone who wants repeat business.


----------



## ferret

russmuller said:


> I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong, but their photos are not a true representation of what you're going to see when you open the case for the first time.



That's been a complaint from a lot of people for 3+ years running. Their photos are always over bright or over saturated and over..poppy... whatever.


----------



## Hollowway

That CT photo match link that was posted had a very white center compared to the photo the guy sent in, too. Maybe whatever monitor they're viewing these on at the shop has the brightness considerably higher, or somehow makes the center of these submitted photos look whiter. It's just weird that both this guitar and the CT thread linked above have the same issue. It's like it's a systematic error.


----------



## linthat22

Konstantine said:


> the problem with that is that the majority of the payment (about 2200 dollars) was done on the initial build and not refunded since it was used for the rebuild, and that payment was sent back in january I think which was months ago now. I wouldn't be able to charge back that would I? I sent an additional payment to cover the extra cost of the photomatch finish recently but that payment was only 300 something odd dollars.



I work in the fraud and credit card arena and here are some options for you to explore (some of which have been mentioned).

1. Maybe consider trying to work out a refund with the maker on the photo-match price that you paid.
2. Depending on the card issuing bank you have anywhere between 6 and 18 months to issue a chargeback (here in the US). If a reasonable solution cannot be met, document document document! And provide all you can to your card issuing bank.
3. If you decide to issue a full chargeback, return the guitar first and make sure you get a signed bill of lading from either FedEx or UPS once it's delivered and then issue a full chargeback. If you'd be happy with getting the $300 bucks you paid for the photo-matching, then just request that amount back.

Hope that helps. 

And on a side note, I asked my wife what she thought and like everyone one has said, she said your new guitar doesn't look ANYTHING remotely to your Agile. And she mentioned the other examples people have found were closer to your original in her eyes.

Good luck dude.


----------



## Sumsar

Being stuck with a 2400$ guitar you are not completely happy with, should never happen to anyone. I really hope this gets sorted out one way or another. Comparing the fact that a guy might have saved up money for months or years for a guitar, to the relatively small loss for a big company on having to redo a guitar, I really hope they step up and handle this like grown ups. Especially since the company seems to be going so well.


----------



## big_aug

Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet. I'm not on anyone's side, just pointing it out. Its fascinating to see it. I work for a large, well known company that has millions of customers. People make the same claims about that company some times. It looks like it doesn't matter the size or scope of your company, people are just anti business these days. They expect the company to post a transcript of their conversation to prove their innocence which no reasonably company would ever do. 

I'd hate to own/run a business in today's world.


----------



## russmuller

big_aug said:


> Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet. I'm not on anyone's side, just pointing it out. Its fascinating to see it. I work for a large, well known company that has millions of customers. People make the same claims about that company some times. It looks like it doesn't matter the size or scope of your company, people are just anti business these days. They expect the company to post a transcript of their conversation to prove their innocence which no reasonably company would ever do.
> 
> I'd hate to own/run a business in today's world.



Unless the customer is an endorsee, of course they're "some rando on the internet." Who else do you think their customers are, or how else would they appear to an online audience?


----------



## big_aug

Sumsar said:


> Being stuck with a 2400$ guitar you are not completely happy with, should never happen to anyone. I really hope this gets sorted out one way or another. Comparing the fact that a guy might have saved up money for months or years for a guitar, to the relatively small loss for a big company on having to redo a guitar, I really hope they step up and handle this like grown ups. Especially since the company seems to be going so well.



That is irrelevant. It doesn't matter what someone went through to purchase something and that cannot factor in to any decision. Business doesn't work that way. Again, I'm not on anyone's side but this is like w case study in anticorporate sentiment. All the statements people throw out are incredible.

I think there is a reason Jeff took a hard line despite all the uproar online about this. They probably know something we don't. Maybe not though. 

Interesting to watch it play out nonetheless.


----------



## laxu

russmuller said:


> That's a great looking guitar. My DC7X looked pretty close to Carvin's photos if it had bright light directly on it, but under most normal conditions it was much darker.
> 
> Here's the FB version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what it looked like IRL:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong, but their photos are not a true representation of what you're going to see when you open the case for the first time.



The transparent finishes depend on lighting a lot. Mine looks exactly as I hoped in direct sunlight, but depending on the angle and light it can look either much darker, the quilted maple top can look very muted or like a pool of water with lots of detail. Just the nature of wood and these kinds of finishes.

To me OP should've gotten something closer to Kiesel's Caliburst option. Now he's left with an off looking color that might make the guitar difficult to sell. I also don't understand why they don't test a finish first on a spare piece of wood to see if it turns out as expected when they're doing something that isn't a standard color. Seems like a good idea even if you're running on a tight schedule.

The least they could do is offer a refinish on just the top and headstock (if that is doable) for a discounted price. Even if it means they don't make any money, this just hurts their reputation. If I hadn't already ordered and received my Kiesel, I probably would think twice after this.


----------



## big_aug

russmuller said:


> Unless the customer is an endorsee, of course they're "some rando on the internet." Who else do you think their customers are, or how else would they appear to an online audience?



What I mean is there is nothing to lend credibility to what the individual is saying and yet everyone condemns Kisel on his word almost immediately. I just find it fascinating.

Like I said, I'd hate to own/run a business in today's world.


----------



## Electric Wizard

big_aug said:


> Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet.


I don't want to speak for everybody in the thread, but personally Jeff Kiesel's response is what's leading to any condemnation.

I don't even agree that Carvin should necessarily be refunding anything if they made their policy clear. It's just how flippant he came across. That and the fact that this isn't the first time we've seen this.

I don't see your giving Carvin the benefit of the doubt and saying there must be some hidden reason they've chosen to come across this way as being any more reasonable. You're creating that narrative.


----------



## russmuller

big_aug said:


> What I mean is there is nothing to lend credibility to what the individual is saying and yet everyone condemns Kisel on his word almost immediately. I just find it fascinating.
> 
> Like I said, I'd hate to own/run a business in today's world.



Well, I think that the response from Jeff (as well as he who shan't be named from a FB group) lends some credibility. And not everyone condemns Kiesel. In fact, the OP claims to be on the receiving end of online harassment from strangers hating on him for bringing the issue up.

Also, what would you expect from an unsatisfied customer? A copy of all emails related to the sale? Screenshots of his call history on his phone to show that he called? I mean, at some point, we have to admit that we don't have a high bar for evidence as spectators and we're largely taking people at their word. *correction: I think we both agree that we're largely taking people at their word.

I do agree with you though, it is fascinating to watch. Customers can be a nightmare (especially in the age of social justice warriors and entitlement), and they're not always right. In this case, Kiesel is within the law and their contractual obligations to give the answer they did; I simply think it's poor service.


----------



## asher

Electric Wizard said:


> I don't want to speak for everybody in the thread, but personally Jeff Kiesel's response is what's leading to any condemnation.
> 
> I don't even agree that Carvin should necessarily be refunding anything if they made their policy clear. It's just how flippant he came across. That and the fact that this isn't the first time we've seen this.
> 
> I don't see your giving Carvin the benefit of the doubt and saying there must be some hidden reason they've chosen to come across this way as being any more reasonable. You're creating that narrative.



Especially when we've seen multiple times Jeff claim something is or isn't doable for technical reasons and be full of .....


----------



## big_aug

I don't think there is anything wrong with Jeff's response. He isn't rude, condescending, or unprofessional. He basically states he did his best and stands behind that and holds firm to his policy that was in place prior to the order. 

It may or may not be true about the burl thing affecting the color and the way they painted it. I have no idea about that.

I work for a cell phone company. As a manager, ive spoken to customers who are unhappy with the phone they purchased. There is a return period for their phones. They want to return their phone and exchange it for something else outside the return period. We have absolutely told customers that they could sell their phone and buy a new one, but we wouldn't accept a return.


----------



## mnemonic

Electric Wizard said:


> I don't want to speak for everybody in the thread, but personally Jeff Kiesel's response is what's leading to any condemnation.



That, and the increasing frequency of threads like this. There have been I think three or four just in the last few months.


----------



## Kemper

I understand Jeffs point, but I cannot share his opinion on this finish. There are so many factory videos on Youtube (factory tours, TTK etc), that show Kiesel´s finishing process. Base clear coat, afterwards the colour is sprayed.

In my homble opinion it doesn´t matter if the burl maple is brown. Maybe less green effect in the center of the body, but nothing that can´t be fixed with two or more coats of green.

300 bucks is way to much for this result, even the finish is done by Jeff.

$ 2500 is so much money for a guitar for most people out there. Kiesel should refund at least the $ 300 upcharge.

The finish on OP´s guitar reminds me on this one:


----------



## jc986

big_aug said:


> I don't think there is anything wrong with Jeff's response. He isn't rude, condescending, or unprofessional. He basically states he did his best and stands behind that and holds firm to his policy that was in place prior to the order.
> 
> It may or may not be true about the burl thing affecting the color and the way they painted it. I have no idea about that.
> 
> I work for a cell phone company. As a manager, ive spoken to customers who are unhappy with the phone they purchased. There is a return period for their phones. They want to return their phone and exchange it for something else outside the return period. We have absolutely told customers that they could sell their phone and buy a new one, but we wouldn't accept a return.



The major difference here is that your company delivered the product exactly as ordered and the customer is wanting to return for a completely different model outside of the return period. This situation is different in that the color match was not even close. Carvin has addressed poor color matches before with refinishes.


----------



## cip 123

big_aug said:


> Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet. I'm not on anyone's side, just pointing it out. Its fascinating to see it. I work for a large, well known company that has millions of customers. People make the same claims about that company some times. It looks like it doesn't matter the size or scope of your company, people are just anti business these days. They expect the company to post a transcript of their conversation to prove their innocence which no reasonably company would ever do.
> 
> I'd hate to own/run a business in today's world.




I think its worse in Guitar land. We guitar players are a fickle bunch. That said Jeff's in the Custom Guitar Business, he's got a high standard to live up to.

He can't promote quality but then when somethings not quality turn around and go "We do the best we can, for the money we can you pay". Plenty of luthiers excel in quality for what they're paid but that said business situations are much different.

Also What do you do when you're buying any product, you check online. It's just the way things work nowadays it's a double edged sword for both parties involved it shows the good and bad but can hide details about orders, conversations who the person is etc.

Also I get the feeling people on these forums and people in this thread come here because their on the fence. when you're on the fence it just takes 1 negative review to stop you and go elsewhere. But these threads are so crucial in helping people make decisions.

Like I've said I was gonna go for a Carvin JB, after the previous negative threads I decided against it. After this I'm super happy I decided against because I wanted a custom colour.


----------



## big_aug

Yea I'd never order a Kiesel anyway. Way over priced. Once you get into $2500 territory, I'd rather shell out another $500-1500 for something great.

Kiesel isn't really custom. They got their hooks in a lot of people by marketing themselves as custom or getting some people to believe it. They are just production guitars with choice of a few options. Not even close to real customs. Its basically like buying from a big box store but the guitar hasn't been made yet. Choosing a few options and color isn't a custom. It just allows Kiesel to not have to produce a bunch of different combinations ahead of time.

Great job by Kiesel marketing to get people to believe these are custom shop guitars. They're basically just like a Fender American Strat, a Jackson USA Production, or any other USA production model.

Shame for both sides in this one.


----------



## asher

"A few" options?

What does a lot of options look like to you, pray tell?


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> That's my guitar and it looks exactly like that in person.



Better in person from the looks of things


----------



## narad

big_aug said:


> Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet.



I can look at Jeff holding the guitar, IN HIS OWN PHOTO, and see that it is an incredibly poor match. We don't need to trust in words here when we have photos from both sides, and both point to the same conclusion...


----------



## laxu

big_aug said:


> Yea I'd never order a Kiesel anyway. Way over priced. Once you get into territory, I'd rather shell out another -1500 for something great.
> 
> Kiesel isn't really custom. They got their hooks in a lot of people by marketing themselves as custom or getting some people to believe it. They are just production guitars with choice of a few options. Not even close to real customs. Its basically like buying from a big box store but the guitar hasn't been made yet. Choosing a few options and color isn't a custom. It just allows Kiesel to not have to produce a bunch of different combinations ahead of time.
> 
> Great job by Kiesel marketing to get people to believe these are custom shop guitars. They're basically just like a Fender American Strat, a Jackson USA Production, or any other USA production model.



The main difference is that rather than a small outfit of 1-2 persons with a turnaround time of 6-12+ months you can get a guitar in 3, provided you like the models they offer. I'd call them semi-custom or something considering you can't have them make you a custom body or neck shape but still have lots of options in wood and finishes, including choosing the individual pieces or having a custom finish.

Based on my experiences Kiesel (I own a Carvin C66 and a brand-new Kiesel AM7) does use some rather nice wood and their standard finishes are really well done. If I had gone with a local custom builder I'd still be waiting for a guitar and would probably pay around 1000-2000 euros more for it (depending on the builder). This considering that for us Europeans you end up paying probably around 30% or more becaues of shipping and taxes. For US folks they are a pretty good deal IMO.


----------



## Konstantine

Well the second fb thread in the kiesel group that was made by an admin is now gone. I wouldn't be surprised if this thread will be gone next by the middle of this week. 

For all the people who are speculating about outside details not being revealed, there are none. It's as simple as this: first guitar received riddled with flaws as stated in OP, second guitar rebuild I took the opportunity to have a photomatch finish done, they made it seem that it would be done without any problems or variation, I asked if I could have progress pics or any kind of assurance and they refused that, I receive the guitar after waiting about 4 months and open the case and it doesn't look remotely close to what I asked them to match, no translucency to the finish and completely different color and gradient. I said for them to match the photo as close and exact as possible, I don't know how I could have emphasized it any more than that. I called constantly to hear progress reports and was never warned about them not being able to pull off the photomatch, this tells me that they basically said "fk it, we are going to ship the guy the guitar anyway and if he doesn't like it, he's stuck with it anyway so it's not our problem". That's really all there is to the situation.

I want to thank the members on here again for giving support and understanding. Apparently kiesel thought some lowly customer could just be swept under the rug easily without a fuss but they were proven wrong. 

I wish I had just listen to my gut and took my money and ran after how things went with the first guitar but I wanted to give them a second chance and this is what I got.


----------



## jc986

Deleting the thread seems like the complete opposite of "standing behind the work" and more like an acknowledgement of a .... up and sweeping it under the rug. If you stand behind the work then don't try to push it into the shadows.


----------



## feraledge

What a bummer of a situation. I've been really skeptical of Kiesel's color bursts before, but this particularly bad. Deep stain? They can do it. Mixing out a proper fade in a burst is like their kryptonite. 
The whole "custom shop" thing is definitely an overstatement, but in opting to get a finish and to get a photomatched finish (a service they offer) goes above and beyond "semi-custom guitar" and goes to "custom finish". For the money, it would probably not be far off in price to get the guitar unfinished and have a really good finish done elsewhere. So this is even more inexcusable. 
I fully understand having a non-return policy on this stuff, but that's not a free card to toss anything in a case and say "good enough". 

Not really adding anything new here, just bummed for the OP and this is why I would not 1) get a color burst from Kiesel or 2) EVER get an Opt 50 from them. It's also why I fully understand why someone wouldn't want to order from them at all.


----------



## jc986

There's no reason this thread should be deleted unless he who shall not be named can get Alex to delete it. This issue is also being talked about at MG and they definitely won't delete it. Kiesel himself stated that he's proud of the work that he did, so they shouldn't have any issue with this thread. Silly paying customers and their expectations.


----------



## Rawkmann

I definitely sympathize with You OP, this was my situation a few months ago with Carvin. Fortunately my guitar actually LOOKED great and I was able to sell it with minimal investment loss. I was just looking at the photos of the guitar You received and honestly I'm scared that it's going to be a hard sale. The burled top is so faint I think it actually looks worse than if it was just solid colors. We all know Kiesel/Carvin is capable of much better, this one shouldn't have even been sent out in the first place.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Rawkmann said:


> We all know Kiesel/Carvin is capable of much better, this one shouldn't have even been sent out in the first place.



This is the part that kills me, like it just makes me sad.
Kiesel has always floored me with what they can do in a finish, they've done some really breathtaking stuff. To spend that kind of money and not even get a result along the lines of what they've already proven to be capable of would be a massive disappointment.


----------



## bloc

Yes the finish is different, but am I the only one who thinks the guitar still looks nice??


----------



## narad

bloc said:


> Yes the finish is different, but am I the only one who thinks the guitar still looks nice??



You got $2400?


----------



## jc986

bloc said:


> Yes the finish is different, but am I the only one who thinks the guitar still looks nice??



I don't think it looks bad, but that's not the issue.


----------



## bloc

I know I know, just saying.


----------



## Mattykoda

If you'd like to keep the guitar maybe reach out to Tom at OAF and see how much a refinish would be or of he'd recommend someone. He does great work and based on customer service alone I can't recommend him enough. I fully understand if you'd like to flat out sell it though, just wanted to throw a possible option in the hat.


----------



## Konstantine

Mattykoda said:


> If you'd like to keep the guitar maybe reach out to Tom at OAF and see how much a refinish would be or of he'd recommend someone. He does great work and based on customer service alone I can't recommend him enough. I fully understand if you'd like to flat out sell it though, just wanted to throw a possible option in the hat.



Thanks for the idea. I won't be spending a single nickel on trying to fix this thing at this point though, doesn't help that all my disposable income money was spent already on buying it in the first place, either. It's remaining where it has been since I opened it and inspected it the day I got it, in the case in the shipping package it came in.


----------



## Sumsar

big_aug said:


> Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet. I'm not on anyone's side, just pointing it out. Its fascinating to see it. I work for a large, well known company that has millions of customers. People make the same claims about that company some times. It looks like it doesn't matter the size or scope of your company, people are just anti business these days. They expect the company to post a transcript of their conversation to prove their innocence which no reasonably company would ever do.
> 
> I'd hate to own/run a business in today's world.



Well it works best ways I would say. With guitars and many other things. I have seen Kiesel grow to an extreme amount of fanboy-ism based on NGDs here and various youtube people getting them and so forth. That level of fanboy-ism to a brand is just the other side of the coin we are seeing now: The brand burning down reputation wise fairly quick, although I don't think this will reach all potential costumers in the same way the positive effects of social media, forums and youtube does.
The internet is just a part of running a company these days, which I think is great. Back in the day you could ....-up and no-one would really know. These days you have to look good in the form of reviews, forum post yadda yadda. Ofc you can always fake that and have admin control fb pages so only the positive side of things get out, which is apparently also happening in this case.
You can also do false profiles posting fantastic reviews of products and buy fb likes on your page and post, and all of that is happening as well.

Tl;dr: There are positive and negative sides to running a business in the days of el internedo, but I think the positive sides are bigger atleast for guitar brands.


----------



## Miek

I don't know what Kiesel's policy on the photomatch process is, but is there not any communication involved the process beyond submitting a picture? I understand they have a lot of guitars, but if you offer a service like that, I imagine there must be some form of communication.


----------



## MrWulf

I feel kinda sad for the guitar, made to be play and now kind of just sitting in the case because its creator ....ed its colors.


----------



## Konstantine

Miek said:


> I don't know what Kiesel's policy on the photomatch process is, but is there not any communication involved the process beyond submitting a picture? I understand they have a lot of guitars, but if you offer a service like that, I imagine there must be some form of communication.



The process, if you can even call it that... is explained in post #236


----------



## Andromalia

big_aug said:


> Its interesting so many condemn a company like Kiesel on the word of some rando on the internet.



Well, those "randos" seem to have better eyesight than Mr Kiesel, at least. I mean, the "dark wood" excuse for issuing a white top instead of a blue/green one is hilarious.
Color-blind kids, please don't make guitar finishing a career.


----------



## big_aug

The good news is maybe there will be a big back lash and we can score used Kiesels even cheaper than they already are.


----------



## Pav

Konstantine said:


> The process, if you can even call it that... is explained in post #236



That's extra crappy if you even requested some kind of sample or progress update and they refused. This is all very much the opposite of what I thought Carvin/Kiesel was all about.



Miek said:


> I don't know what Kiesel's policy on the photomatch process is, but is there not any communication involved the process beyond submitting a picture? I understand they have a lot of guitars, but if you offer a service like that, I imagine there must be some form of communication.


FWIW, when I ordered my CS Jackson I sent them an image to have them match the color. And that was it...just one or two pictures and they matched it perfectly. Maybe I was just lucky but the fact that they were able to nail the color with one or two images tells me it isn't rocket science.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

MrWulf said:


> I feel kinda sad for the guitar, made to be play and now kind of just sitting in the case because its creator ....ed its colors.



True that. I wish I had money, as I would just buy it off of OP just to un-fvck them. Like I said in the past, I personally really like the way it looks.


----------



## Demiurge

I don't understand why, if the finish request and wood selection was truly going to be a problem, the customer couldn't have been advised of this and potentially convinced to make another decision. How hard would it have been for someone to say, "this wood behaves differently with colors than the usual stuff- let us know if that's still cool"?

Obviously, the return policy is understandable to an extent, but with Option 50s the idea seemed to be that the customer can get the special request they want _at a price_. Here, it's almost like the "no sendsies-backsies" strict return policy was the most important thing to Carvin/Kiesel and not the execution- as if the policy protects them against responsibility for screwing it up.


----------



## MrWulf

Chokey Chicken said:


> True that. I wish I had money, as I would just buy it off of OP just to un-fvck them. Like I said in the past, I personally really like the way it looks.



Somebody was talking about having a raffle for the guitar. I think that'd work. From what I understand, why not pitch together 2.5K for a chance of getting this guitar? I mean, it gives the guitar a new place with someone that will play it, help the poor guy at the same time as well.


----------



## infernalservice

Yikes man, I hope they come through for you.

Color matching can be tricky with different types of wood, but for that burst to even be so much thinner is just ridiculous. My first Suhr was color matched to an Anderson and they nailed it.


I honestly don't get this whole Kiesel/Carvin thing. Every older Carvin I played (never owned one) had some weird finish and/or fret issues, and then I remember thinking when Kiesel launched that maybe it was going to come with a huge push in QC but that doesnt appear to be the case. Its like the budget American brand that dressed itself up a bit and now charges slightly higher prices for some really pretty finishes, but resale is still in the toliet and they can't do bent tops on flagship models.


----------



## A-Branger

High Plains Drifter said:


> Not bashing... just curious. And sorry to OP since a bit off-topic but look at the underside of the lower bout... Why does it look like that? Is it a lens filter? editing technique? Several gallery pics have that same appearance.



that its due to the reflective nature of the gloss finish.

If you see the shadows of the guitar you can tell from where the light is coming from. From top left and behind-ish of the guitar. a Couple of sources. This and the angle of it are made so you wont see the light source on the top. If you check the lower bevel you can see a white line, thats the fluro light from above.

so basically the light is bouncing from the white/blue matt under and into the guitar and the gloss finish is reflecting the matt into the camera. Its not a white haze, its just the reflection of the white matt the guitar is sitting on.


Nothing wrong with their photos. Its hard to represent those kinds of guitar finish on a photo vs the real thing. So they bump the contrast a bit and crush the blacks (to make the darkest part of a photo even darker, to make the blacks of a photo even blacker) in order to "pop" the grain. But a secondary effect of doing this is that the saturation goes up too. Thats the reason they look more "saturated" too. Plus the use of a better camera than a phone lol

the only thing it really grinds my gears is the stupid vignette


----------



## jc986

MrWulf said:


> Somebody was talking about having a raffle for the guitar. I think that'd work. From what I understand, why not pitch together 2.5K for a chance of getting this guitar? I mean, it gives the guitar a new place with someone that will play it, help the poor guy at the same time as well.



I'd be down for that, or even help organize it if enough people were interested.


----------



## Randy

Not that I believe this changes anything but this oceanburst looks considerably more like what shipped. I didn't realize these varied so much.

Agile Septor Elite 827 EB DNC Oceanburst Flame DOT - RondoMusic.com


----------



## Jayd41

Raffle!!!

It sucks the way everything turned out for the OP, but this is a great solution. 
Gets him his money back, and I bet the guitar plays and sounds like a beast so someone would be happy to own it. 

I, for one, would be a part of a raffle for this guitar.


----------



## jc986

Randy said:


> Not that I believe this changes anything but this oceanburst looks considerably more like what shipped. I didn't realize these varied so much.
> 
> Agile Septor Elite 827 EB DNC Oceanburst Flame DOT - RondoMusic.com



Yeah I saw some of the ones on their site and thought maybe they just pulled one of those up for reference and matched it instead. If that's the case then they did a spot on match...just of the wrong photo.


----------



## mystix

How about each buying for the raffle is $50? That way, all we need would be 50 entries. I would totally be down for that. It keeps each person's chances high


----------



## jc986

mystix said:


> How about each buying for the raffle is $50? That way, all we need would be 50 entries. I would totally be down for that. It keeps each person's chances high



That's what I was thinking. So far I think there's at least 3 or 4 that would be in.


----------



## Warg Master

jc986 said:


> That's what I was thinking. So far I think there's at least 3 or 4 that would be in.



I'm in


----------



## Adam Of Angels

I'll buy a raffle for it, and I vow to sell it for dirt cheap or give it away if my name is drawn.


----------



## mystix

So can we start a thread in the classifieds section explaining this? We can have a sign up one period... Like 2 or 3 weeks. Then if we get enough for 50 entries, we have an extra week for everyone to get their $50 in. Then we do the raffle.


----------



## Mattykoda

Count me in, the OP could do the drawing


----------



## bpprox22

jc986 said:


> Yeah I saw some of the ones on their site and thought maybe they just pulled one of those up for reference and matched it instead. If that's the case then they did a spot on match...just of the wrong photo.



I can't imagine they would just blindly grab a pic off their site and use it as the reference. Especially since OP sent them a few pictures.

If they did use one of these, Jeff's comment about being happy with the outcome would make more sense in my eyes. But it doesn't change the unfortunate situation OP is in.

That said, I would be in for a raffle!


----------



## Konstantine

jc986 said:


> That's what I was thinking. So far I think there's at least 3 or 4 that would be in.



The camaraderie on this forum and community never ceases to amaze me, you guys are all truly amazing for extending help to me like this. Even if this plan doesn't come to fruition, I can't express enough gratitude to this community.

**side note** I found it hilarious when they tried writing off seven org on the kiesel fb page on the original first post that's now long been removed as a bunch of basement dwellers with nothing better to do. They couldn't have been more wrong.


----------



## jc986

Konstantine said:


> The camaraderie on this forum and community never ceases to amaze me, you guys are all truly amazing for extending help to me like this. Even if this plan doesn't come to fruition, I can't express enough gratitude to this community.
> 
> **side note** I found it hilarious when they tried writing off seven org on the kiesel fb page on the original first post that's now long been removed as a bunch of basement dwellers with nothing better to do. They couldn't have been more wrong.



This is a great forum, and the quality of the individuals here is outstanding. Go ahead and start a thread in the classifieds and put a link to it in this thread since there's a lot of traffic here (if that is cool with the mods). I think the 50 at $50 is an achievable starting point.


----------



## JLocrian

Count me in.


----------



## Konstantine

jc986 said:


> This is a great forum, and the quality of the individuals here is outstanding. Go ahead and start a thread in the classifieds and put a link to it in this thread since there's a lot of traffic here (if that is cool with the mods). I think the 50 at $50 is an achievable starting point.



pm sent


----------



## MoonJelly

Count me in too! .... $50 for a $2500 guitar is solid. I'd play that bad boy every day.


----------



## mystix

Btw, maybe we should do $51.50 to cover the paypal fee so the OP gets $50 per entry. 

Btw, pm sent to the OP to put me down for an entry


----------



## Adam Of Angels

mystix said:


> Btw, maybe we should do $51.50 to cover the paypal fee so the OP gets $50 per entry.
> 
> Btw, pm sent to the OP to put me down for an entry




It would actually be $51.55 to be exact - but I agree, we should do that so that he doesn't lose a cent.

This place rules


----------



## Jlang

I'm down for the raffle, 100%


----------



## High Plains Drifter

What if someone wanted to throw in but doesn't currently have a PP acct?

Also, could someone make a smaller contribution if they just wanted to donate yet not participate in the raffle?


----------



## Mattykoda

Maybe the OP can create a post with all the commited buyers until we get 50, then we all submit payment and once cleared he can do the drawing.


----------



## jc986

High Plains Drifter said:


> What if someone wanted to throw in but doesn't currently have a PP acct?
> 
> Also, could someone make a smaller contribution if they just wanted to donate yet not participate in the raffle?



It'd be up to the OP, but you could just do a bank wire transfer. 

And to address the fee concerns I had planned on just using PayPal Gift.


----------



## Konstantine

Classified ad is live: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/gu...10000-fs-kiesel-dc700-raffle.html#post4569858


----------



## Rawkmann

What an amazing gesture to make up for Carvin's subpar handling of this situation! I really hope the raffle idea goes off without a hitch, and the OP gets 100% of his money back on the guitar. Still amazed at how Kiesel is handling this, I guarantee they lose at least several potential customers over this mess.


----------



## MrWulf

I'm down. 50 dollars to help a guy out and a chance for a guitar. Deal.


----------



## noise in my mind

Nice, I like the positive spin! Especially after all the BS from karvin.


----------



## Konstantine

So far I have tallied up 11~ raffle participants. I will post an update here and also on the classified listing with the updated tally tomorrow 4/18/16 at around 3pm eastern time. Again, thank you for helping me out.


----------



## zeropoint

The vibe in this community is unreal. Love it.


----------



## xzacx

Count me in. I don't want the guitar, but if I win I'll happily sell it to anyone that does want it and intends to play it for the price of....$50.


----------



## JLocrian

xzacx said:


> Count me in. I don't want the guitar, but if I win I'll happily sell it to anyone that does want it and intends to play it for the price of....$50.



Right here 

That's really solid of you, man. I love this community


----------



## MrWulf

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'll buy a raffle for it, and I vow to sell it for dirt cheap or give it away if my name is drawn.





xzacx said:


> Count me in. I don't want the guitar, but if I win I'll happily sell it to anyone that does want it and intends to play it for the price of....$50.



Calling dib


----------



## pondman

I'm in


----------



## Konstantine

I went ahead and posted this on the raffle ad and I'm putting it here to make it visible.

****EDIT UPDATE 4/18/16************ so after sleeping on it and doing more thinking, we will keep the raffle going, I had posted late last night that the raffle would be canceled but I have decided we can simply establish a crowd fund page to help keep it organized and it will be setup so that payments are not withdrawn til the goal amount is reached. The winner will be drawn from a randomized list generator that will be video taped and said video will be posted here. The winner will be contacted and if the winner lives in the EU, the winner will cover the associated shipping costs. If the winner on the first draw decides for whatever reason to not receive the instrument, a redraw will be done and once again the video will be posted up.

we are going to keep the raffle going, I will be setting up a crowd fund page in the next few days. Each 50 dollars will still equate to one spot in the raffle. I will set up the funding page so that payments are not withdrawn til we meet are goal amount stated in the raffle ad in the gear classified. A rough estimate for the deadline of the raffle will be the end of may? Let me know what you guys think for the deadline date. Thanks again


----------



## Alberto7

Shame about the raffle, because I'd be willing to participate! (Which really works against me, as I'd pay in CAD. ) I understand your reasons though. When you got to "I'm a full time university student" I was all "it's okay man, take it easy." 

I'm pretty disappointed reading this thread. I've always been pretty proud of my own Carvin. The only one I've ever played, granted, but I always heard fantastic things about them. Whenever they did turn out a lemon every once in a blue moon, they always did right by it. They need to put a stop to a growth rate they can't handle.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

Yeah that's a tad bit of a shame, but I think we all get it. Would have been fun though. 
That could be a neat business idea. Like a website that's an escrow service for stuff like this. 

Posting the email might be a no-go because that could be interpreted as instigating harassment, even though that's not your intention. Not to be a downer, but even if it played out like you'd want it to, I don't think it would help. Jeff's pretty clearly made up his mind. 

Maybe put up a FT ad in the classifieds, see what people offer. A trade might be a more enjoyable experience than just selling it. Lots of people (myself included) do seem to like it and it's at the price range where you can start seeing some interesting guitars offered.


----------



## MrWulf

I personally think some of the issues you said above can be easily remedy, like having the winner pay the shipping fee, for example. But you know, it is your decision. It is a shame, really. That 7 strings is gonna have to sit on its bag for a long long time.


----------



## AliceLG

I really wish I had read this thread before paying the deposit for a VM8 build. Now I'll be even more anxious for the moment I receive the guitar, hold my breath, open the case and either exhale slowly or cough, gasp and hyperventilate 

Their build time has gone up, so maybe they're adapting their process to the increase in volume. I was told to expect my guitar in "under 20 weeks"


----------



## laxu

For the raffle, simply adding that the winner pays shipping and any taxes would be enough as that will still be at most a $200 (shipping US to Europe for example + taxes) for a $2000 guitar.

You could probably also try a crowdfunding platform as they are better setup for that kind of thing so people don't actually get charged until the minimum amount is reached. If not enough people join then you don't have to deal with refunding.

Instead of having people email Kiesel, it would be better to have people contact you if they've had a similar situation where a custom finish turns out completely wrong and Kiesel acted differently in their case. Then you can take that evidence to them and ask for fair treatment in the matter.

But seriously, it seems Kiesel requires better community managers that understand that only the positives can't be what is shown. How a company responds to criticism and issues is what makes or breaks their reputation. Kiesel isn't doing theirs any favors by sweeping it under the rug.


----------



## ledzep4eva

Konstantine said:


> I've done some thinking and research on doing something like this and I am afraid I will have to pull the plug on the raffle idea for a few reasons.
> 
> 1. Organizing and managing a pool of 50 raffle participants will simply be too much for me to handle at the moment as I am already a full time uni student and work night shifts on weekends. Adding up the raffles to 50 is easy but I am seeing some potential for things to go wrong when it comes time to confirm participation once we hit the 50# and payments need to be sent to my verified paypal which leads me to point 2
> 
> 2. While receiving paypal payments for the raffles as gifts (family/friends) seemed good (we get to dodge paypal fees), after doing further research I've come to find it leaves the seller extremely vulnerable to chargebacks (not questioning the character of anyone here, just stating what I've found researching this type of scenario) since the raffle is an intangible, paypal in reality offers no guarantee of any protection at all for that matter to the seller even though its a gift payment being received. My research showed this is actually a rampant problem in the online gaming community and nothing new.
> 
> 3. Finally, say we get to 50, all payments are received and sorted without any confusion or mix ups, everyone confirms within the deadline and a winner is chosen. Said winner lives in a obscure far away place and now I am possibly put in a precarious position where the guitar needs to be shipped very far away and this would entail a substantial shipping cost, possible complications dealing with customs and in addition put the guitar at risk for possible harm during travel to said destination.
> 
> For these reasons outlined above, its to my dismay that I will have to back out of the raffle idea. I want to once again thank you all for your outstanding kindness in trying to help see a positive end to this.



It seems to be that you're being very much over-cautious, and looking a gift horse in the mouth.

Paypal - Bear in mind the context of this - this is a tight-knit community coming up with a way to very generously "do you right" after you've been stiffed by a builder usually held in good regard. The chances that 50 members of that community actively contributing toward that effort are all going to fraudulently issue chargebacks against you via paypal after the raffle's conclusion have got to be minimal.

Shipping - This is easily and readily solved by either stating that 1) international members are responsible for their own shipping and customs (a standard caveat with sales), or 2) raffle is USA only.

Admin - the admin associated with a raffle (i.e. creating a list of names, providing payment information, doing a draw) really isn't very cumbersome at all. You said you worked and saved up for several years to buy this guitar, and that you now consider that money wasted. Why wouldn't you take the chance to get it all back for half an hour's effort per day or so?


For the record, I feel for you. While that finish over a burl top is not something I would have chosen or paid $700 for, Kiesel really did an awful job of it, and are not handling it well. However ss.org is going out of its way to help you out even though you're a very new member, and I think you should take stock of that.

SS.org - at least you tried.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

laxu said:


> You could probably also try a crowdfunding platform as they are better setup for that kind of thing so people don't actually get charged until the minimum amount is reached. If not enough people join then you don't have to deal with refunding.



That is a really great idea. Fund the 'SSO Kiesel Raffle,' goal set at $2500, perk set at $50 as an entry. Then random.org from the list of contributors and bill for shipping. 

Something to keep in mind in case you change your mind.
I'd definitely focus on keeping your sanity in check though 

I also did the school + night shift thing. It sucked. I've now moved on to just the night shift part, and believe it or not, I'm starting to miss the school bit...just working feels boring after.


----------



## ledzep4eva

This whole thing is just bizarre. Even if Kiesel thinks it's technically or morally in the right, it's now got a thread on a very, very popular guitar forum which sends many customers its way, with 18,000 views and counting, showcasing a situation where Kiesel did a very crappy job and is basically saying "tough" rather than remedying it.

Anyone interested in a Kiesel build with any element of finishing flair would be put off merely by looking at the first post - the finish they did looks nothing like the customer requested, and looks pretty crap over the burl anyway.

If Kiesel had any PR savvy whatsoever, they'd publicly offer a refinish. Even if they didn't have to, and they were completely in the right, it would be a good move from a PR perspective in terms of damage control.

Contrast this incident with the guy whose neck Suhr replaced free of charge because of a defect.

I was very, very close to placing an order and was merely mulling over finish choices (thinking of deep aquaburst vs blue, flame vs quilt), but this has put me off anything of the sort. The fact that Kiesel can let that out of their shop (along with a few recent very sub-par flame/quilt tops) on a $2,300 build is shocking. If I do place an order, it'll be for a solid finish - certainly no fancy wood.


----------



## Konstantine

laxu said:


> For the raffle, simply adding that the winner pays shipping and any taxes would be enough as that will still be at most a $200 (shipping US to Europe for example + taxes) for a $2000 guitar.
> 
> You could probably also try a crowdfunding platform as they are better setup for that kind of thing so people don't actually get charged until the minimum amount is reached. If not enough people join then you don't have to deal with refunding.
> 
> Instead of having people email Kiesel, it would be better to have people contact you if they've had a similar situation where a custom finish turns out completely wrong and Kiesel acted differently in their case. Then you can take that evidence to them and ask for fair treatment in the matter.
> 
> But seriously, it seems Kiesel requires better community managers that understand that only the positives can't be what is shown. How a company responds to criticism and issues is what makes or breaks their reputation. Kiesel isn't doing theirs any favors by sweeping it under the rug.


 
Can you refer me to the crowdfund platform you mentioned?


----------



## Zado

ledzep4eva said:


> Contrast this incident with the guy whose neck Suhr replaced free of charge because of a defect.



So another aspect that sets the two brands on two worlds apart


----------



## laxu

Konstantine said:


> Can you refer me to the crowdfund platform you mentioned?



I have no experience which one would be the best but gofundme and Indiegogo should allow personal donations. They do have fees of about 3% if the crowdfunding is successful so you may have to account that in raffle ticket prices or eat the sum yourself (as it's still a lot smaller hit than selling the guitar on the used market).


----------



## Chokey Chicken

It's not a structural defect though. As I understand it, he had a defective one and sent it back for a rebuild that he asked for the match on. It was rebuilt free of charge, with the new cost of color matching.


----------



## narad

Zado said:


> So another aspect that sets the two brands on two worlds apart



The other aspect is the price.


----------



## Fred the Shred

As many will know, I am usually not on the fiercely adamant side of chastising the evil luthiers for .... ups, since I do know it's virtually impossible to ensure that a 100% fault free run met with 100% customer approval exists.

What I find very odd about this whole case is that, in no apparent communication throughout the process, was it ever mentioned that the finish or extremely approximate version of which was not possible. This, on its own, is pretty much saying "we got this" to the customer, no buts or ifs. 

In the end, there is basically no similarity whatsoever, and faulting the top wood is complete BS as the finish is sprayed on, not a stain with its set of limitations regarding certain woods. Not once throughout the process is it mentioned that the result will be massively different from what was presented on the reference pic, and all of a sudden, in light of the dissatisfaction of someone who forked out quite considerable coin, it's his fault given that he should know that burl has a magical effect on the spray paint pixies that disorients them and actually changes the colours being applied.

I understand that, contractually, they are safe and in the right to refuse the return of the instrument for reimbursement or refinishing, but in the end, being contractually protected isn't as valuable as ensuring customer satisfaction and admitting things didn't turn out as well as they'd have wished. It's not the first time I've seen this reaction, and if we add to this the sort of reaction and poor management of HiGain510's pic removal request and the disproportionate escalation that had, I foresee their reputation taking many unnecessary blows due to overly defensive, self righteous conduct that desperately needs some empathy injected into it.

The whole thing could have been prevented. It wasn't, and now it's a judgement call on whether to reassure potential customers that there is indeed a passionate customer care team that tries their best to solve things that didn't work out as well or whether the whole defensive act is to prevail.

My opinion is this: Kiesel has invested very heavily on creating hype via social media and reaped the rewards via a tremendous increase in number of orders. If a company creates hype, they are either prepared to live up to it or sink. I'd like to remind people of the consequences the US Boden line had on .strandberg*'s credibility and customer trust, and who cleaned up the mess afterwards - there's no second line here, so...


----------



## Jeff

I've had five Carvins; four had minor to significant finish flaws, one was fine, but sounded thin, sterile, and tinny. 

It doesn't surprise me at all that they ....ed this up, since they ....ed up another user's Vader significantly, and there isn't any shortage of issues on their own forum. 

I always have to laugh when people taught Carvin/Kiesel as good as a Suhr, Anderson, or American PRS. That's just not remotely been the case, in my experience. I'd personally rather have a PRS SE with swapped tuners and pups.


----------



## russmuller

Fred the Shred said:


> I understand that, contractually, they are safe and in the right to refuse the return of the instrument for reimbursement or refinishing, but in the end, being contractually protected isn't as valuable as ensuring customer satisfaction and admitting things didn't turn out as well as they'd have wished. It's not the first time I've seen this reaction, and if we add to this the sort of reaction and poor management of HiGain510's pic removal request and the disproportionate escalation that had, I foresee their reputation taking many unnecessary blows due to overly defensive, self righteous conduct that desperately needs some empathy injected into it.



Wholeheartedly agree, Fred!

I think it's important to remember that it's the customers who decide if you've done a good job or not. By the Option 50 policy, they could have painted it with pink and purple stripes and not be under any obligation to do anything about it. But simply refusing to address it isn't standing behind your work; it's hiding behind a policy. Whatever the reasons are, it makes me not want to trust the company with my money.

I really love that they're a family owned American business, and that they make some really great, affordable guitars. But it's disheartening to see their growth over the past 2 years is accompanied by an increasing trend of poor judgement. I hope they shape up.

And I hope we get at least 50 of us to actually buy in to that raffle! I can't imagine a better way to help the OP put this ordeal behind him.


----------



## narad

russmuller said:


> And I hope we get at least 50 of us to actually buy in to that raffle! I can't imagine a better way to help the OP put this ordeal behind him.



I'm torn. Is the community supposed to step up and help out everyone that gets the short end of the Kiesel stick? It's a nice gesture, but it definitely sets a bad precedent -- there's a reason people band together in charity for _unforeseeable_ disasters and not just to compensate for poor business dealings. These needs to be handled "in-house" IMO.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia

narad said:


> I'm torn. Is the community supposed to step up and help out everyone that gets the short end of the Kiesel stick? It's a nice gesture, but it definitely sets a bad precedent -- there's a reason people band together in charity for _unforeseeable_ disasters and not just to compensate for poor business dealings. These needs to be handled "in-house" IMO.



I think it sends a good message to Kiesel, honestly. 
It tells them that enough people thought that the guy got screwed over that they were willing to take action and shell out some cash even. I agree they should have handled it first, but sending a message is still a silver lining imo. 

Definitely catch your drift, though.


----------



## mbardu

Wow I'm late to this one!







In term of pure looks (regardless of price), the Kiesel doesn't look half bad on its own. At least based on Jeff's picture. Not 700$ upcharge-good, but those 700$ are not for something inherently 'better' they are for something rarer (the burl top) and more work-intensive (one-off finish on said wood).

Note that I wouldn't have said the same with Konstantine's first OP's picture - which looked like a sub-500$ guitar with the washed-out colors (goes to say that how the picture is taken also changes the looks quite a bit - light, angle, camera, white balance...maybe the Agile picture actually also looks white in the middle like a lot of other oceanbursts when taken with a bright light/high exposure).

Do we assume that the OP was promised an exact match to the picture provided? =>Konstantine, did they give you any warning at all or did they promise an exact match?

As far as I know, that's not the case. The option that they offer doesn't promise to match a color 100% and that's not something someone should go with if they have a very very specific idea in mind.

What I was told very clearly multiple times when I ordered my option 50 finishes was that it would be non-returnable, and would be done on a best-attempt basis which would not necessarily look the exact same tint or darkness. I actually felt that the Carvin/Kiesel people almost tried to discourage me from going through with it.

If that didn't happen in this case, then this would be the bigger mistake than any finish difference in the guitar. And I fear that this might be the case now that they tout custom finishes twice a day on FB or IG (a thing that they used to shy away from in the past).

Now about refinishing this one and the goodwill/reputation impact vs cost of that. On a short term basis, yes they could have taken it back and done that. Easily. In fact they've done it in the past. But what about the long term though? Where do they draw the line? Do they refinish every guitar that a buyer is not happy with? Especially with more and more people going that route? 
One thing I thought they had started to do was to create restocking fees proportional to the up-charges, option 50s, and roughly amount they would 'lose' by selling as 'in-stock' in case of a return. To me that sounded like a good idea at the time. Do they not do that anymore? Or wouldn't it have helped in this case?


----------



## russmuller

mbardu said:


> Wow I'm late to this one!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In term of pure looks (regardless of price), the Kiesel doesn't look half bad on its own. At least based on Jeff's picture. Not 700$ upcharge-good, but those 700$ are not for something inherently 'better' they are for something rarer (the burl top) and more work-intensive (one-off finish on said wood).
> 
> Note that I wouldn't have said the same with Konstantine's first OP's picture - which looked like a sub-500$ guitar with the washed-out colors (goes to say that how the picture is taken also changes the looks quite a bit - light, angle, camera, white balance...maybe the Agile picture actually also looks white in the middle like a lot of other oceanbursts when taken with a bright light/high exposure).
> 
> Do we assume that the OP was promised an exact match to the picture provided? =>Konstantine, did they give you any warning at all or did they promise an exact match?
> 
> As far as I know, that's not the case. The option that they offer doesn't promise to match a color 100% and that's not something someone should go with if they have a very very specific idea in mind.
> 
> What I was told very clearly multiple times when I ordered my option 50 finishes was that it would be non-returnable, and would be done on a best-attempt basis which would not necessarily look the exact same tint or darkness. I actually felt that the Carvin/Kiesel people almost tried to discourage me from going through with it.
> 
> If that didn't happen in this case, then this would be the bigger mistake than any finish difference in the guitar. And I fear that this might be the case now that they tout custom finishes twice a day on FB or IG (a thing that they used to shy away from in the past).
> 
> Now about refinishing this one and the goodwill/reputation impact vs cost of that. On a short term basis, yes they could have taken it back and done that. Easily. In fact they've done it in the past. But what about the long term though? Where do they draw the line? Do they refinish every guitar that a buyer is not happy with? Especially with more and more people going that route?
> One thing I thought they had started to do was to create restocking fees proportional to the up-charges, option 50s, and roughly amount they would 'lose' by selling as 'in-stock'. To me that sounded like a good idea at the time. Do they not do that anymore? Or wouldn't it have helped in this case?



All those things are addressed earlier in the thread. The fact is that, while the Kiesel doesn't look half bad on its own, it doesn't look much like the photo that the OP provided for them to match. If they didn't feel they could match it, or if they suspected it wouldn't come out much like the desired result, they should have communicated that beyond the standard "custom finishes are non-refundable.

I think that when you pay $300 extra for a finish that you should get a finish that looks like what you wanted. As far as short term fixes playing out in the long run, I think it's good business to make sure your customers are happy. I'm not saying they need to buy him dinner and a hooker, just deliver a guitar that gets close to the customer's expectations.


----------



## mbardu

russmuller said:


> All those things are addressed earlier in the thread. The fact is that, while the Kiesel doesn't look half bad on its own, it doesn't look much like the photo that the OP provided for them to match. If they didn't feel they could match it, or if they suspected it wouldn't come out much like the desired result, they should have communicated that beyond the standard "custom finishes are non-refundable.
> 
> I think that when you pay $300 extra for a finish that you should get a finish that looks like what you wanted. As far as short term fixes playing out in the long run, I think it's good business to make sure your customers are happy. I'm not saying they need to buy him dinner and a hooker, just deliver a guitar that gets close to the customer's expectations.



As mentioned, when I ordered in my case (and even though a name of 'photo-match' would imply that  ), no one promised an exact match. Just that they would attempt a match based on a photo, but with no guarantee whatsoever.

If in this case they (whoever had the sales conversation) promised an exact match to the OP, then it's where they failed; and failed bad. You should not promise something you cannot deliver.


----------



## narad

Just one thing that I'm getting from OPs original description of what he wanted and from some discussion outside the forum is that more may lie with miscommunication than is readily apparent.

For instance, OP was insistent that the new finish be lighter than the old one. Was this received as "lighter than the photo I'm sending you to photomatch"? If so, it's clear to see why the finish would end up the way it did, so worth considering.

However, if Jeff can seriously come in here and say this was the closest we could get to the photo given the magical properties of burl wood, then F that. While I'd like to believe it's miscommunication, and I think it's easy to see how it could be, certain other things make it hard to believe, i.e.:
- censoring / deleting threads/posts
- not posting what the actual finish instructions were (as written down)
- taking photos but not sending them to the customer ahead of time
- excuses regarding the difficulty of the finish based on bull....


----------



## beneharris

mbardu said:


> . But what about the long term though? Where do they draw the line? Do they refinish every guitar that a buyer is not happy with? Especially with more and more people going that route?



You bet your butt they should be fixing every guitar somebody isn't happy with. 

I get both sides, they tried their best, it was not what the customer wanted, but they say its a color match and it won't always come out perfect. Here is my issue with the whole thing.They have so much time to devote to posting pictures on #facebook#and#hashtagingthecrapoutofeverything#keisel. Can't they update the people who pay the extra money? A custom shop certainly would do that, I'm sure.


----------



## jc986

narad said:


> I'm torn. Is the community supposed to step up and help out everyone that gets the short end of the Kiesel stick? It's a nice gesture, but it definitely sets a bad precedent -- there's a reason people band together in charity for _unforeseeable_ disasters and not just to compensate for poor business dealings. These needs to be handled "in-house" IMO.



Definitely agree that Kiesel should have taken care of this in house and they had the opportunity to even before anything was posted on the forums or social media. Since Jeff Kiesel has already given the decision I don't see it getting overturned. There's nowhere over his head to go.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> Just one thing that I'm getting from OPs original description of what he wanted and from some discussion outside the forum is that more may lie with miscommunication than is readily apparent.
> 
> For instance, OP was insistent that the new finish be lighter than the old one. Was this received as "lighter than the photo I'm sending you to photomatch"? If so, it's clear to see why the finish would end up the way it did, so worth considering.
> 
> However, if Jeff can seriously come in here and say this was the closest we could get to the photo given the magical properties of burl wood, then F that. While I'd like to believe it's miscommunication, and I think it's easy to see how it could be, certain other things make it hard to believe, i.e.:
> - censoring / deleting threads/posts
> - not posting what the actual finish instructions were (as written down)
> - taking photos but not sending them to the customer ahead of time
> - excuses regarding the difficulty of the finish based on bull....



Well numerous things at play.

For having personally ordered a few option 50s (and talked to a few more people who did), I can tell you what was the process those few times:
- No guarantee that the result will be an exact match
- Multiple warnings that the guitar will be non-returnable
- Some more warnings that the finish may not match, and some more warnings that the guitar will not be returnable/refundable
- Assurance that no individual/custom build progress pictures will be shared with the buyer (reserved to Kiesel editions which are another 2,000$ upcharge)

Those are the conditions. Maybe a majority of people think that they suck and wouldn't want to go through them. Maybe most people think that's way too risky and not worth the high price. But some people still believe it's worth it.

If the OP was not aware of those conditions and if he was lied to by Kiesel - then that's really bad and almost a rip off. I don't know though - because as you've mentioned we've not been part of that conversation, missing the exact instructions, and just happy to take out the pitch forks right away. 

Now - this is also not related to censoring posts is it? We're talking and the post is here.


----------



## Rawkmann

The only similarities that the finishes have is that they both have some shade of blue in them. From 50 feet away and squinting they still look completely different to me. Anyway I get that color matching isn't an exact science, but its almost like since OP had already returned his first guitar due to defects and requested a different finish they passive aggressively made it look different than the supplied photos. Maybe they figured, eh, its option 50 anyway so what can he do?


----------



## jc986

mbardu said:


> Well numerous things at play.
> 
> For having personally ordered a few option 50s (and talked to a few more people who did), I can tell you what was the process those few times:
> - No guarantee that the result will be an exact match
> - Multiple warnings that the guitar will be non-returnable
> - Some more warnings that the finish may not match, and some more warnings that the guitar will not be returnable/refundable
> - Assurance that no individual/custom build progress pictures will be shared with the buyer (reserved to Kiesel editions which are another 2,000$ upcharge)
> 
> Those are the conditions. Maybe a majority of people think that they suck and wouldn't want to go through them. Maybe most people think that's way too risky and not worth the high price. But some people still believe it's worth it.
> 
> If the OP was not aware of those conditions and if he was lied to by Kiesel - then that's really bad and almost a rip off. I don't know though - because as you've mentioned we've not been part of that conversation, missing the exact instructions, and just happy to take out the pitch forks right away.
> 
> Now - this is also not related to censoring posts is it? We're talking and the post is here.



The commentary related to the censorship is a reference to 2 threads about this on Kiesel's FB Group page being deleted by the admin. 

In the past, Carvin has addressed color matches that were obviously off, even if it was an option 50 with the disclaimers given. I don't think they can say using a white center on a teal to blue burst is a solid attempt. If the hue of the teal or blue they used wasn't exact, sure, but they didn't even attempt to put any color in the middle of what the OP received.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Well numerous things at play.
> 
> For having personally ordered a few option 50s (and talked to a few more people who did), I can tell you what was the process those few times:
> - No guarantee that the result will be an exact match
> - Multiple warnings that the guitar will be non-returnable
> - Some more warnings that the finish may not match, and some more warnings that the guitar will not be returnable/refundable
> - Assurance that no individual/custom build progress pictures will be shared with the buyer (reserved to Kiesel editions which are another 2,000$ upcharge)
> 
> Those are the conditions. Maybe a majority of people think that they suck and wouldn't want to go through them. Maybe most people think that's way too risky and not worth the high price. But some people still believe it's worth it.
> 
> If the OP was not aware of those conditions and if he was lied to by Kiesel - then that's really bad and almost a rip off. I don't know though - because as you've mentioned we've not been part of that conversation, missing the exact instructions, and just happy to take out the pitch forks right away.
> 
> Now - this is also not related to censoring posts is it? We're talking and the post is here.



We're not talking on a forum that Kiesel has the power to censor. Maybe they'll buy this one shut like the last.

At any rate, I don't care about the option 50 stuff. The conditions on the option 50 aren't very relevant. I just want to know if Jeff's ....ty at photomatching or if the instructions he was given directed him to burst it much lighter than the Agile photo. This entire thread basically assumes he was trying to match the photo exactly, and I'd like to know if that's a valid assumption.


----------



## Rawkmann

narad said:


> This entire thread basically assumes he was trying to match the photo exactly, and I'd like to know if that's a valid assumption.



From what I understand, the first guitar that the OP received with defects was too dark, and that's when the OP supplied the photo to be matched for the second go around. So yes, it would seem like it was supposed to be an exact match. Correct me if I'm wrong OP.


----------



## Konstantine

The idea of using a crowdfund website for the raffle process has hit a speed bump, these crowd fund sites don't accept raffles. There is a site specifically for creating raffles but it would not allow people to do IOU's which was what we were hoping for. I have tallied up 21 people so far who said they'd be open to doing the raffle but I'm afraid it has potential to get messy with confusion and what not if we are relying on everyone to submit paypal gift payments timely when we hit the 50 participants #. 

At this point, if kiesel would even just refund the 300 dollar upcharge for the photomatch, I would be ready to move on and just sell it for a loss, albeit not as big of a loss, given they give me that refund for the match. 

Unfortunately it seems they will not give me any kind of consolation on making this right, which is a shame both for me (not getting what I paid and asked for), and for them damaging their PR over this.


----------



## Konstantine

Rawkmann said:


> From what I understand, the first guitar that the OP received with defects was too dark, and that's when the OP supplied the photo to be matched for the second go around. So yes, it would seem like it was supposed to be an exact match. Correct me if I'm wrong OP.



That's correct. I think somewhere back by page 6 or so, people mention that the online photos they post are heavily edited which is another misleading thing going on. I understand they are a company marketing to sell a product but if the photos in some instances are altered so much that the actual product looks different it can cause an issue as some have mentioned earlier. I sent the photos of the agile on post #1 saying to get it bang on like that.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I think the fact that OP already had a rebuild might have something to do with it. I don't think that makes OP wrong mind you, but I can see not wanting to make, ship, return, make, ship again. Honestly, I think it would have just been simpler and easier on OP if they just did a partial refund or a full refund and say they just can't keep shipping out guitars on their dime.

Most definitely not ideal, as its their fault for sending out a flawed guitar, then rebuilding it with a iffy paint match, but I'd bet there would be much less of a to do about it had they just swallowed their pride a bit. Its not like they're hurting for money, what with how many orders they've got in right now. Instead of just losing the one sale now, they've lost many from folks here. 

I feel bad for people like Chris, who does absolutely fantastic by his customers, who may be hurt in all this, but it just seems silly at this point to give Kiesel money. Such a stupid instance to hold their ground over.


----------



## thrsher

FYI if paypal does not allow raffles and they will "confiscate" the money if the find out and everyone will be .... out of luck. tattoo friend did a raffle through paypal and they took it all. there has to be an exchange of goods


----------



## Konstantine

Chokey Chicken said:


> I feel bad for people like Chris, who does absolutely fantastic by his customers, who may be hurt in all this, but it just seems silly at this point to give Kiesel money. Such a stupid instance to hold their ground over.



I agree, Chris is definitely a clutch player and a classy guy over there. I don't think he will get hurt by the bad pr. Jeff made some kind of announcement that they have some 700 something builds pending a while back, probably explains why he feels he can brush situations like this aside now.


----------



## jc986

thrsher said:


> FYI if paypal does not allow raffles and they will "confiscate" the money if the find out and everyone will be .... out of luck. tattoo friend did a raffle through paypal and they took it all. there has to be an exchange of goods



Unless it's done as gift/friends & family.


----------



## Konstantine

gifts are exempt? That would make sense. Or would they still confiscate if they somehow figured out what was really going on?


----------



## mnemonic

Pav said:


> FWIW, when I ordered my CS Jackson I sent them an image to have them match the color. And that was it...just one or two pictures and they matched it perfectly. Maybe I was just lucky but the fact that they were able to nail the color with one or two images tells me it isn't rocket science.



Since its Jackson Custom Shop, I'd bet the finish guy probably tests multiple colors on tester pieces of wood until he gets the right finish. Given Kiesel's upcharge is $300 for a finish match, and given how busy they are, I bet they skip that step, eyeball the colors, and spray it direct on to the guitar. 

After all, the guy spraying finishes would usually load the gun, spray the finish, put it in the booth to cure and move on to the next one. I would think all the extra time and work to mix and test colors should add up to more than $300 worth of time, if they're not cutting corners.


----------



## ferret

We did a raffle on carvinbbs the other year, and Paypal shut down the raffle account near the start, though they did allow for the money to be returned. In the end had to just go on trust for the primary organizer (It's tight knit enough that this wasn't an issue in the end) and mail checks.


----------



## russmuller

thrsher said:


> FYI if paypal does not allow raffles and they will "confiscate" the money if the find out and everyone will be .... out of luck. tattoo friend did a raffle through paypal and they took it all. there has to be an exchange of goods



OP could "sell" tickets for the raffle. That's a good.


----------



## mnemonic

Konstantine said:


> gifts are exempt? That would make sense. Or would they still confiscate if they somehow figured out what was really going on?



Just from my experience with paypal, I knew a guy running a business using paypal as the primary means of getting payment from customers. He accepted mostly 'gifts' as payments for a while, but eventually paypal wised up, and froze his account. He had like $50,000 frozen for a few months, but as far as I recall, he did eventually get the money back. He did have some hoops to jump through, I can't remember anymore though. This was a few years back.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream

mnemonic said:


> Just from my experience with paypal, I knew a guy running a business using paypal as the primary means of getting payment from customers. He accepted mostly 'gifts' as payments for a while, but eventually paypal wised up, and froze his account. He had like $50,000 frozen for a few months, but as far as I recall, he did eventually get the money back. He did have some hoops to jump through, I can't remember anymore though. This was a few years back.



I don't work for PayPal but I think they do this to avoid their platform being used for illicit purposes, e.g. tax evasion, money laundering...etc.


----------



## cwhitey2

Holy Jesus...that's not even close at allllll. They probably had that body sitting around and decided to use it on your build.

Kiesel will NEVER be getting my money at their current pace of screw up on their end and lack of customer service.



In all seriousness...send it to Pondman and have him refinish it for you.


----------



## infernalservice

narad said:


> The other aspect is the price.



Price, wood quality, fretwork, integrity, customer service, reputation. I would rather pay the extra money for an instrument that holds its resale value, isn't nickel and dimed to such a silly extent on customization, and is just a straight up pleasure to play. This whole carvin "direct to the buyer" deal is and has been a shill for somewhat mediocre quality for a long time. The Kiesel rebranding and consequence price increases are stuff I don't get. The company cannot even do a bent figured top on the flagship models they are toting. It looks silly to see a swamp ash forearm butting up to a flamed or burl top. Also that painting and clearing flamed fretboards thing they are doing looks great at first, but play that guitar a few years and there is no way that is holding up. Just a bizarre choice as a luthier.


----------



## narad

infernalservice said:


> Price, wood quality, fretwork, integrity, customer service, reputation. I would rather pay the extra money for an instrument that holds its resale value, isn't nickel and dimed to such a silly extent on customization, and is just a straight up pleasure to play.



As do I, but I'm just saying it's silly to compare the two when one costs 2-3x the price of the other (apart from Pro series).



infernalservice said:


> The company cannot even do a bent figured top on the flagship models they are toting. It looks silly to see a swamp ash forearm butting up to a flamed or burl top.



They fixed that. There's a lot they need to still fix, but they did fix that.


----------



## infernalservice

narad said:


> As do I, but I'm just saying it's silly to compare the two when one costs 2-3x the price of the other (apart from Pro series).
> 
> 
> 
> They fixed that. There's a lot they need to still fix, but they did fix that.



The top forearm is a step in the right direction. I called out Jeff directly on Facebook for that over a Vader post, and he told me he "will not compromise his design or integrity over aesthetics" looks like he realized people aren't too stoked to pay 2k plus for 80% figured tops ;-)


----------



## laxu

Konstantine said:


> That's correct. I think somewhere back by page 6 or so, people mention that the online photos they post are heavily edited which is another misleading thing going on. I understand they are a company marketing to sell a product but if the photos in some instances are altered so much that the actual product looks different it can cause an issue as some have mentioned earlier. I sent the photos of the agile on post #1 saying to get it bang on like that.



My experience is that Kiesels look very different based on lighting. Both my Carvin and my new Kiesel do, they can go from light to dark to muted or very pronounced figure depending on light and angle. While they surely do some photoshopping for their product pictures that's pretty much expected.


----------



## Thrashman

Chokey Chicken said:


> Honestly, I think it would have just been simpler and easier on OP if they just did it right in the first place.



Fix'd.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Thrashman said:


> Fix'd.



Fair point, though I'm referring to where its at right now. The .... ups happened, and they had the ability to save face but chose not to.

Even at this point if they refund the money, the can of worms has already been opened.


----------



## Thrashman

^ Yeah, but it would be a step in the right direction for them if they just did it right in the end.


----------



## MFB

Thrashman said:


> ^ Yeah, but it would be a step in the right direction for them if they just did it right in the end.



I don't think anyone's denying that?


----------



## Randy

This is one of those threads that's mostly ran it's course, regarding the criticisms and assorted positions on either side of the issue. 

At this point, there's a significant amount of , the main reason I'm leaving this open is since you guys are negotiating this raffle business. Outside of some kind of epiphany on Kiesel's part, I'm not expecting much substantive movement in here. Of course OP still has every right to keep everybody posted on any updates to this case.

Anyway, I brings this up because I know there's still some raw emotions over this thing and this threads been getting a lot of traffic, but considering "they should've done it right in the first place" is 1.) self evident 2.) been said ad nauseum already, I'm suggesting (_as a courtesy to members who want to browse other topics in this subforum without this being bumped every 10 minutes_) further conversation in here be limited to things of substance. 

I'm not warning or banning anybody, and I'm not locking or deleting this thread... I'm asking we collectively calm down a little bit and keep further updates to things of value.


----------



## xzacx

One more proposal if the raffle thing isn't going to work. What about just small donations towards a refinish from a 3rd party. This would obviously be cheaper than covering the price of the whole guitar, and in theory could be covered in a bunch of small payments. Ideally a member of SSO who does that kind of work could be the one to do it, and show Carvin how it should have been done in the first place. Just an idea. I don't know much about refinishing, and I'm sure this would be more costly than something in a solid color, so maybe it's doesn't make economic sense, but if so, I think it could be an interesting way of settling things. 

I think this could A.) most importantly, get the OP something he's happy with and wants to play. And B.) disprove the excuse that it couldn't have been done any better based on the wood.


----------



## ZeroS1gnol

If I may add a little constructive comment, in case the photo matching was based on digital photos: photo matching a guitar is generally a bad idea, given the fact not all systems run the same colour profiles and monitors also have different set ups. If you and the other party don't view your photos on a calibrated screen, chances are you're looking at different colour tones. The photo lighting is also a risky factor.

That said, still sucks that it didn't came out like OP wanted.


----------



## big_aug

I just got a guitar a couple months back with a big ass gash on the fretboard. Seller did nothing about it. Anyone want to donate money to me?


----------



## xzacx

big_aug said:


> I just got a guitar a couple months back with a big ass gash on the fretboard. Seller did nothing about it. Anyone want to donate money to me?





Couldn't you have filed a claim through PayPal or your credit card company? Without knowing the details of your situation it's hard to compare. I don't want to speak for anyone else, but for me, the reason I'm so willing to try to help out in this case is because the OP doesn't have much method of protecting himself because of the option 50 clause. In my opinion, it's far enough off to be considered a defect rather than them not nailing it 100%. 

Also I'll admit to being petty. I'd love to see that thing finished properly next to the excuse that it couldn't be done because of the wood.


----------



## Xaios

big_aug said:


> I just got a guitar a couple months back with a big ass gash on the fretboard. Seller did nothing about it. Anyone want to donate money to me?


----------



## oneblackened

xzacx said:


> One more proposal if the raffle thing isn't going to work. What about just small donations towards a refinish from a 3rd party. This would obviously be cheaper than covering the price of the whole guitar, and in theory could be covered in a bunch of small payments. Ideally a member of SSO who does that kind of work could be the one to do it, and show Carvin how it should have been done in the first place. Just an idea. I don't know much about refinishing, and I'm sure this would be more costly than something in a solid color, so maybe it's doesn't make economic sense, but if so, I think it could be an interesting way of settling things.
> 
> I think this could A.) most importantly, get the OP something he's happy with and wants to play. And B.) disprove the excuse that it couldn't have been done any better based on the wood.



I really like this idea. I think we could find someone to do it, too.


----------



## Randy

big_aug said:


> I just got a guitar a couple months back with a big ass gash on the fretboard. Seller did nothing about it. Anyone want to donate money to me?





Xaios said:


>



I politely ask for some decorum in here and this is what you guys offer me in response, eh?


----------



## ElRay

jc986 said:


> The commentary related to the censorship is a reference to 2 threads about this on Kiesel's FB Group page being deleted by the admin.



... and one here.


----------



## big_aug

Randy said:


> I politely ask for some decorum in here and this is what you guys offer me in response, eh?



I just got back from a ban and feeling a little bitter. I shall not post in this topic further. Moving on.


----------



## Konstantine

oneblackened said:


> I really like this idea. I think we could find someone to do it, too.



I'm on board with this and think that would be awesome. I'm not sure how extensive or pricey it could turn out as I'm not keen on how refinishes go but I'm absolutely open to the idea. Surely there must be a way to get that white spray off there to reveal the burl top? Maybe have some deep stains applied? even if its just one hue like a light blue or a teal color. Anyways, that's a direction I'm ready to take.


***update***
Due to the raffle running into complications I've decided that having a third party refinish the guitar so that it at least comes close to the right color to the photo I supplied kiesel. 

Donations of any amount to this effort are beyond appreciated as I am by no means a wealthy guy and saved my money more than two years for this instrument which makes it hurt all the more. I'm now stuck with this instrument as kiesel absolutely refuses making any kind of consolation so I have either the choice of keeping it or selling it for a huge loss. The decision to keep it and have it refinished seems to be the wiser. 

My fundraiser for a refinish is here: https://www.gofundme.com/6zzt5w38

Thank you all again for being such an awesome community and giving a voice and support to a fellow guitar enthusiast and consumer who is getting brushed off and quite frankly, screwed over. -Konstantine


----------



## Señor Voorhees

One thing about Kiesel that's good is that they don't use wafer thin veneers, so getting down to the top wood is feasible. It's a bit of a bummer that it's not a bolt on though, because shipping a body around is much less worrisome than shipping a whole guitar. The headstock, on the other hand, might be a bit more difficult.


----------



## jc986

ElRay said:


> ... and one here.



As far as I know that had more to do with the owner of this site trying to protect a paying advertiser. Kiesel didn't even delete that thread from their own FB group, so I don't believe the thread's removal from here was motivated by them. Surely if they wanted it gone they would have killed it on their end as well.


----------



## technomancer

Konstantine said:


> I'm on board with this and think that would be awesome. I'm not sure how extensive or pricey it could turn out as I'm not keen on how refinishes go but I'm absolutely open to the idea. Surely there must be a way to get that white spray off there to reveal the burl top? Maybe have some deep stains applied? even if its just one hue like a light blue or a teal color. Anyways, that's a direction I'm ready to take.
> 
> 
> ***update***
> Due to the raffle running into complications I've decided that having a third party refinish the guitar so that it at least comes close to the right color to the photo I supplied kiesel. Donations of any amount to this effort are beyond appreciated as I am by no means a wealthy guy and saved my money more than two years for this instrument which makes it hurt all the more. I'm now stuck with this instrument as kiesel absolutely refuses making any kind of consolation so I have either the choice of keeping it or selling it for a huge loss. The decision to keep it and have it refinished seems to be the wiser.
> 
> Thank you all again for being such an awesome community and giving a voice and support to a fellow guitar enthusiast and consumer who is getting brushed off and quite frankly, screwed over. -Konstantine



Given this I closed your classifieds thread.


----------



## Mattykoda

Happy for the OP's decision, the overall support and to be apart of this forum. I don't doubt that we wouldn't have been able to hit 50+ participants, the comradery was unreal to help a fellow member out. Hopefully everything turns out well and I think we all look forward to your redo ngd in the future.
/thread


----------



## Genocyber

ZeroS1gnol said:


> If I may add a little constructive comment, in case the photo matching was based on digital photos: photo matching a guitar is generally a bad idea, given the fact not all systems run the same colour profiles and monitors also have different set ups. If you and the other party don't view your photos on a calibrated screen, chances are you're looking at different colour tones. The photo lighting is also a risky factor.
> 
> That said, still sucks that it didn't came out like OP wanted.



I agree about calibrated screens and colour profiling for close colour matching. As someone who works for a printing company and dealing with colour matching on a daily basis though, I wouldn't have thought you would see such a massive variance in colour tones. Having said that, one of the only true ways to colour match is to measure the source with a proper spectrometer which I doubt many if any luthiers would have.

If it was my guitar, I would not be happy...


----------



## MoonJelly

Konstantine said:


> The decision to keep it and have it refinished seems to be the wiser.



I love the refinish idea. That sends just as much of a message about their poor response as raffling it off. Just send it to Skervesen, obviously they did it right today 

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...kervesen-nebelung-7-flamed-burl-goodness.html


----------



## Pav

MoonJelly said:


> I love the refinish idea. That sends just as much of a message about their poor response as raffling it off. Just send it to Skervesen, obviously they did it right today
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/se...kervesen-nebelung-7-flamed-burl-goodness.html



I agree. Have it refinished by a professional, take some nice pics of the sweet new finish, and show Kiesel how it should've been done in the first place. Having someone's work immediately erased and re-done by someone else sends more of a message than profanity does.


----------



## narad

Ugh, get it refinished but let's not pretend this "sends a message." The only thing that sends a message is people cancelling orders.


----------



## jandro

Any chance of posting photo's of the manufacturing flaws of the first guitar you sent back to Kiesel/Carvin?


----------



## jc986

narad said:


> Ugh, get it refinished but let's not pretend this "sends a message." The only thing that sends a message is people cancelling orders.



Not really sure that would do much good either. Kiesel keeps 20% of any cancelled order and then they just sell it once finished at like a 10% discount, so really they end up making even more money on the guitar once it sells than if the customer had fulfilled the order as planned. The only way Kiesel will get the message is if people stop ordering all together.


----------



## MoonJelly

^ Besides, wouldn't you or the OP _feel _better to throw a little "I told you so" their way? Just sayin', I know in reality this is a no-win situation. What's important is that we feel vindicated!


----------



## ramses

I have the feeling that refinishing will lead to further disappointment.

Just sell it or trade it.


----------



## Jlang

ramses said:


> I have the feeling that refinishing will lead to further disappointment.
> 
> Just sell it or trade it.



Totally disagree, if done right, the refinish could look phenomenal.


----------



## Zado

Señor Voorhees;4570508 said:


> One thing about Kiesel that's good is that they don't use wafer thin veneers,


For that price it'd be a shame the opposite.


----------



## M3CHK1LLA

jandro said:


> Any chance of posting photo's of the manufacturing flaws of the first guitar you sent back to Kiesel/Carvin?




also, the emails from op & kiesel.

maybe i missed it, but that i wondered why they have not been posted.


----------



## HaloHat

russmuller said:


> That's a great looking guitar. My DC7X looked pretty close to Carvin's photos if it had bright light directly on it, but under most normal conditions it was much darker.
> 
> Here's the FB version:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here's what it looked like IRL:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying they're doing anything wrong, but their photos are not a true representation of what you're going to see when you open the case for the first time.



Wow  That is quite the difference 

Beautiful guitar for sure though.

So whats with all the wood in the back of the photo? Similar look in my home as well s'why I'm asking 

For OP, and anyone else interested I'll leave this link to a good "finish" video. It is quite obvious that the OP's op50 color result is due to getting the job done quickly and not a lack of skill or knowledge on Jeff's part. This isn't rocket voodoo ya know  

I am only up to about page 9 of this thread and hoping the OP has some better news in pages I have not read yet.

How to Create a Sunburst Finish - Fine Woodworking Video


----------



## Jonathan20022

That blue burl top with the lighting being darker on the bottom isn't Kiesel inherent. There's literally no light hitting the top and it's a completely different angle than the original photo, if he replicates the angle and amount of light it will look identical.

The notion that wood used on Kiesels looks darker in darker lighting as if other brands/guitars don't is a little  worthy.


----------



## russmuller

Jonathan20022 said:


> That blue burl top with the lighting being darker on the bottom isn't Kiesel inherent. There's literally no light hitting the top and it's a completely different angle than the original photo, if he replicates the angle and amount of light it will look identical.
> 
> The notion that wood used on Kiesels looks darker in darker lighting as if other brands/guitars don't is a little  worthy.



Having ordered and owned this guitar, I can tell you that it will only look close to their photo in direct sunlight and with filters to bring out the blacks. When it came time to sell the guitar, it was difficult for me to get photos that showed the grain.

You're absolutely right that any guitar with natural wood will look different in different lighting. I'm just saying that their finishes do not look like the photos under any normal circumstances. I was a little disappointed in that aspect when I first opened the case. That's why my NGD pics were all up really close because otherwise the grain was almost too dark to make out.

Anyway, not my intent to derail or drag this out. This only got brought up because the original guitar OP ordered had an aquaburst finish that was much darker than he expected, and I chimed in with a similar experience.


----------



## ramses

russmuller said:


> Having ordered and owned this guitar, I can tell you that it will only look close to their photo in direct sunlight and with filters to bring out the blacks. When it came time to sell the guitar, it was difficult for me to get photos that showed the grain.
> 
> You're absolutely right that any guitar with natural wood will look different in different lighting. I'm just saying that their finishes do not look like the photos under any normal circumstances. I was a little disappointed in that aspect when I first opened the case. That's why my NGD pics were all up really close because otherwise the grain was almost too dark to make out.
> 
> Anyway, not my intent to derail or drag this out. This only got brought up because the original guitar OP ordered had an aquaburst finish that was much darker than he expected, and I chimed in with a similar experience.



Just to give a counter example:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/285436-ngd-carvin-ct7.html

My guitar's top looks better than Kiesel's picture, from any angle. My pictures are not under direct sunlight. All the pictures in the above post are indoors. My pictures are not retouched. And yes, it does look that awesome with my own eyes.

The main thing you have to be careful when taking pictures of a figured top is to NEVER use flash.



Just to try to avoid going too off-topic ... if the OP would want to reconsider the raffle, I would also participate. And I would like to repeat myself: refinishing will result in further disappointment, sell it.


----------



## narad

russmuller said:


> Having ordered and owned this guitar, I can tell you that it will only look close to their photo in direct sunlight and with filters to bring out the blacks. When it came time to sell the guitar, it was difficult for me to get photos that showed the grain.
> 
> You're absolutely right that any guitar with natural wood will look different in different lighting. I'm just saying that their finishes do not look like the photos under any normal circumstances. I was a little disappointed in that aspect when I first opened the case. That's why my NGD pics were all up really close because otherwise the grain was almost too dark to make out.



Yea, that's nothing specific to Kiesel. That's just what stained burls look like. I'm not convinced Kiesel's using any post-processing for pop as it's pretty easy to take pics that show off the top if you have the right lighting and camera settings. Actually far less guilty of any filtering/contrast-boosting than half of this forum's NGDs. People here are shameless! 

We should streamline the process such that any photo uploaded here can be automatically set to a.) contrast-boosted, b.) over-saturated, c.) flatten those blacks out Nolly-style


----------



## Pav

narad said:


> Ugh, get it refinished but let's not pretend this "sends a message." The only thing that sends a message is people cancelling orders.



What, do you think Jeff Kiesel has worms in his living room?


----------



## mbardu

Zado said:


> For that price it'd be a shame the opposite.



Well most Jackson USA (2.5k onwards) flamed finishes are still veneers now, aren't they? Not really a matter of price per se.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> Well most Jackson USA (2.5k onwards) flamed finishes are still veneers now, aren't they? Not really a matter of price per se.



No. The tops on USA Jacksons are about twice as thick (or thicker) as what is typically marketed as a veneer.


----------



## Pav

Jackson doesn't use veneers on any guitars at that price point. If you get a USA model with a figured top, it's going to be at least 1/4" thick.


----------



## Rev2010

Actually, I'm almost certain Jackson USA models will have a 1/8" thickness top. It won't be a paper thin veneer, and 1/8" is good, but I doubt it will be 1/4". I only say this because when I ordered my custom I had the option of either 1/8" or 1/4" (and it didn't seem to matter the wood I chose - in this case spalted maple) and the 1/4" was like twice the upcharge. Since I got body binding it also seemed to be less a point in going thicker. 

Anyhoo, the point is that the thicker the top the more expensive it is so I'd imagine they're using 1/8" tops - though this is purely speculation and I can't fully verify. 


Rev.


----------



## mbardu

OK guys, sorry I raised Jackson if that hurt some feelings 

I've had many Jackson soloists, and many Carvins, very often side by side.
No soloists with tops thicker than 1/4 inch; many Carvins with (although they have reduced thickness on a lot of new designs)

My point was just that actually price does not necessarily correlate with absolute price, especially across brands.
For Jackson, having a thin top (let's call the "almost 1/8" a full top rather than veneer if that makes you feel better) is by design. A soloist will sound like a soloist, whether it's finished in solid color, or with a thin piece of maple that's just here for cosmetic reasons. And a plain color soloist will cost sometimes 3k vs some Agile LPs with tops for 500$.


----------



## narad

mbardu said:


> OK guys, sorry I raised Jackson if that hurt some feelings



You didn't hurt feelings, but you're just not making a good comparison. LPs have thick tops because they're carve tops. Drop tops with bent tops have thin tops because they need to be easily bent. Agiles LPs for $500 have a big slab of poorly figured wood. Jacksons for $3k have 1/8th piece of nicely figured wood. 

Carvin bent tops aren't more than 2/8th in comparison.

When it comes to bent tops it's all for cosmetic reasons. If you want a superstrat with a maple top that isn't purely cosmetic, go look at a Caparison CL12.


----------



## mbardu

narad said:


> You didn't hurt feelings, but you're just not making a good comparison. LPs have thick tops because they're carve tops. Drop tops with bent tops have thin tops because they need to be easily bent. Agiles LPs for $500 have a big slab of poorly figured wood. Jacksons for $3k have 1/8th piece of nicely figured wood.
> 
> Carvin bent tops aren't more than 2/8th in comparison.
> 
> When it comes to bent tops it's all for cosmetic reasons. If you want a superstrat with a maple top that isn't purely cosmetic, go look at a Caparison CL12.



Besides the fact that at least we agreed that what Carvin does (even on the thinnest top they use) is twice the size as Jackson, the only thing I was doing was replying to "Carvin better use thick tops at this price point". And said reply was that no it's not relevant. As you said, having thin tops on even expensive guitars can be by design and is not a matter of "they should do it at that price point".


----------



## yellowv

Look at the new one Jeff's bragging about. This is his attempt at a fade. SMH


----------



## JLocrian

yellowv said:


> Look at the new one Jeff's bragging about. This is his attempt at a fade. SMH



Saw that one earlier. Couldn't help but laugh


----------



## habicore_5150

yellowv said:


> Look at the new one Jeff's bragging about. This is his attempt at a fade. SMH



Fade: a half-assed half and half colored top


----------



## Nlelith

I also love how he mentioned that it's a "smartphone photo" and "lighting isn't good enough"... It's like saying: "We didn't screw up this one, too. It just looks completely wrong in this particular picture, but we decided to share it anyway!".

But honestly, I really hope that it's just Jeff trying to play it safe and see if customer will ask for a refinish before it's shipped out.


----------



## laxu

Yeah that's no fade. I'm guessing the client wanted teal to light blue to blue fade. For some reason Kiesel seems to have a hard time with those lighter shades of teal or blue. Blaming it on cellphone photos sounds a bit of a stretch to me.


----------



## Xaios

Even if this conjecture about that guitar is correct, this thread really isn't the place for it. We learned from the myriad of Strictly 7 threads that when discussions regarding legitimate complaints by actual SSO users turn into wholesale slagging of a person or brand, things get nasty and childish (something I contributed to in one of the S7 threads, to my shame). I recommend we not go further down that avenue.


----------



## narad

Agreed. Can we get a dedicated thread for the slagging?


----------



## A-Branger

I dont think thats a good idea. Its not going to look good to any of us and the reputation of the forum. No one like ppl complaining for every little detail.

One thing is to talk about a situation like what happened to the OP. But its another thing to slag by the sake of slagging as because you arent happy for what happened to someone else.

Plus this opens the door to people trash talking jsut for the sake of it. Like complaining about that photo, which it has nothing bad. Yes, its not a PRS fade stain, but its still a good looking guitar/paint job, we dont know what the client asked for, he mentions its a "phone pic" as because it is, its not a "pro photo" like they usually do. People are taking that in the wrong way, and a dedicated tread is only going to make little details like that to be taken out of context and damage the reputation of the brand without any real reason.

See the funny guitars tread as the perfect example. A tread dedicated to bizarre and wonky looking guitars, then someone came and started posting a bunch of photos of Kiesels, and the way he did it you could clearly see hes not happy with them and almost taking that post as an excuse to slag for the sake of it. Out of like 10 guitars he posted only one actually had a questionable paint job, the rest where actually beautiful (if you ignore the bevel lol). So picture what a dedicated tread to that would do 

Yes, we recently got two bad cases where they did a mistake, customer service was bad and they clean their hands about the subject. But at the same time almost every week theres a NGD in here from that brand and a lot of happy customers. 

I know I wont buy anything from them, not due to those two cases I saw happening here, but mostly because Ive never liked their guitar designs either. But if you dont like them, dont buy them. But theres no need to trash talk


----------



## narad

^^ It's a joke


----------



## schwiz

Xaios said:


> Even if this conjecture about that guitar is correct, this thread really isn't the place for it. We learned from the myriad of Strictly 7 threads that when discussions regarding legitimate complaints by actual SSO users turn into wholesale slagging of a person or brand, things get nasty and childish (something I contributed to in one of the S7 threads, to my shame). I recommend we not go further down that avenue.



Completely and utterly agree with this. Why does everyone want to jump on the whining bandwagon?

I know that this situation is unfortunate for the OP, but creating a Go Fund Me in order to fund a paint job for the guitar, is in my opinion, completely poor taste. Just sell the guitar and move on.

And look on the bright side, at least you're not left handed. That would make the guitar exponentially harder to sell.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I got the vibe that he mentioned it was a cell pic to hilight the fact that it wasn't shooped like everyone was complaining about. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess. This .... annoys me. Kiesel ....s up once or twice, and then everyone piles on and mocks the .... out of every little thing they do.

OP's guitar was embarassing because they were trying to mimic something and missed by a mile. This guitar not only looks good, but for all anyone knows, it could be exactly what the customer ordered. This thread has quickly become obnoxious.


----------



## A-Branger

narad said:


> ^^ It's a joke



ups sorry about that


----------



## Konstantine

So, I have a new update for everyone.

A vendor on this website who has been observing this thread since it first posted, has reached out to me and made an outstanding offer to build me the guitar that I wanted in the first place with the correct colors! I will withhold the name for now (it's not kiesel though) until things progress and said instrument is received at which point I will be posting a NGD on here for. Beyond thankful right now and completely caught by surprise that a custom shop vendor would do something amazing like this for me. Thanks again.


----------



## Random3

I have to say everything I have seen from the community in this thread is incredible.

Konstantine, is this vendor crafting you a new one from scratch or is he going to re-finish the Kiesel one? Either way, I am very happy for you


----------



## Konstantine

Random3 said:


> I have to say everything I have seen from the community in this thread is incredible.
> 
> Konstantine, is this vendor crafting you a new one from scratch or is he going to re-finish the Kiesel one? Either way, I am very happy for you



Building a new one. Thanks!


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Now that's more like it. Hope it turns out well for you! Really awesome news!


----------



## asher

It says a lot that I can think of _multiple_ guys on here who are cool enough cats to do that for a forum member.


----------



## BrailleDecibel

Wow, that is great to hear! Props to said vendor are definitely in order for making things right where Kiesel wouldn't.


----------



## Sumsar

Yeah its quite awesome that apparently some company had a PR meeting going:

"Should we make guitars and send to various youtubers for free and build hype OR should we spend the same money on rescuing people who has gotten somewhat facked over by other companies on popular guitar forums and that way get 9000 points on the awesomeness scale from all the people looking at the thread/forum?"
"Second option!"


----------



## Spicypickles

ITT: 100% chance of salt.


----------



## Mangle

I have to admit, that's about as mind-blowing as it comes! Never would have believed all of this if I hadn't watched it all unfold. Congratulations on your good luck OP!


----------



## mbardu

So now creating a 15-page topic on sso means getting a free guitar? Interesting.


----------



## asher

Spicypickles said:


> ITT: 100% chance of salt.





mbardu said:


> So now creating a 15-page topic on sso means getting a free guitar? Interesting.



That was fast.


----------



## feraledge

mbardu said:


> So now creating a 15-page topic on sso means getting a free guitar? Interesting.



Maybe it's just my reading on the situation, but he didn't say it was free. 
Would be insane if that's the case, getting stuck with a ~$2500 guitar with a botched finish from an established company merits 15 pages of ranting, the raffle makes sense since those contributing get the chance at getting a new guitar for $50, donating money for a refinish to a stranger would be a stretch for me, but a free custom guitar would be crazy. Might make me want to start complaining more, but I would think that's not what's happening.


----------



## mbardu

asher said:


> That was fast.



Haha. 
Yes sorry, apologies that was already salty. 
In line with the tone and spiraling out of the thread I guess. 

Looking forward to hearing more though.


----------



## Konstantine

feraledge said:


> Maybe it's just my reading on the situation, but he didn't say it was free.
> Would be insane if that's the case, getting stuck with a ~$2500 guitar with a botched finish from an established company merits 15 pages of ranting, the raffle makes sense since those contributing get the chance at getting a new guitar for $50, donating money for a refinish to a stranger would be a stretch for me, but a free custom guitar would be crazy. Might make me want to start complaining more, but I would think that's not what's happening.



It's not free, what I wrote earlier was a bit vague. The kiesel guitar will be taken by the shop doing the favor for me and be auctioned off by them. I can't give out anymore details than that.


----------



## russmuller

Konstantine said:


> So, I have a new update for everyone.
> 
> A vendor on this website who has been observing this thread since it first posted, has reached out to me and made an outstanding offer to build me the guitar that I wanted in the first place with the correct colors! I will withhold the name for now (it's not kiesel though) until things progress and said instrument is received at which point I will be posting a NGD on here for. Beyond thankful right now and completely caught by surprise that a custom shop vendor would do something amazing like this for me. Thanks again.



WOW!!!!!!!!!!! 

That's unbelievably awesome! Whoever it is that's stepping up to the plate must be quite the BAMF to help you out. I look forward to seeing the results.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Even if it was free, it's extremely nice of whatever Luthier decided to pick up the project and make what Kostantine wants. Props to them


----------



## Hollowway

This is awesome. Whoever this luthier is (and he just went on my short list of people who I would buy a guitar from) is going to have a good life, because he looks at a situation and only sees possibilities. That's what makes a successful person and business. I think it's awesome that he saw a guitar that wasn't what the customer wanted, and instead of seeing a failure, saw the opportunity to build his brand, help a brother out, and have fun time doing it. Well done, secret luthier, well done.


----------



## Hollowway

Is it too early for us to all speculate about which luthier it is, and then tear down each others' suggestions?


----------



## feraledge

BRJ


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## Sumsar

^ More like Carvin!


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## asher

feraledge said:


> BRJ



Nah, definitely Sherman.


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## stevexc

Collab between Strictly 7 and Roter. Clearly.


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## Alex Kenivel

Rondo


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## feraledge

Alex Kenivel said:


> Rondo



 My first thought!


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## Adam Of Angels

I wonder if it's KxK... If it is, I would take one KxK over 10 Carvins. But I'm trying to think of who else it could be.

Edit: on 2nd thought, Skervessen would make sense.


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## Ordacleaphobia

Normally my guess would be Brian, but from my understanding, he's done building.
Second guess is....the Sabre guys maybe? They're good folks.


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## Jlang

I got money on Skervesen, and if it is, you are in for a lucky surprise. Grats man!


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## downburst82

I hope its not kxk or sabre as they are both already way behind on builds..


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## Emperor Guillotine

yellowv said:


> Look at the new one Jeff's bragging about. This is his attempt at a fade. SMH


I need to address this.

Kiesel posted this pic of this guitar yesterday asking for opinions. Everyone (I mean, EVERYONE) agreed that the fade was nonexistent and the transition from teal to blue was too abrupt due to the lack of a proper fade. Kiesel completely ignored the concurring opinion and instead just completed the guitar anyway (new pic is up on their social media) without refinishing the top or changing anything. Now everyone is kissing ass on this guitar and saying "how great it looks" instead of acknowledging that Kiesel didn't address or fix the lack of a fade. ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

See how the online hype bullsh*t works now? People are willing to overlook the lazy, careless, half-assed work based on the excuse of: "oh, it was just because of the lighting and the angle and my phone's camera".


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## cardinal

I'd vote to lock this thing now. Looks like the OPs situation is as resolved as its going to be, seems like everything'so been said, and the thread's likely to spiral out of control at this point.


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## Alberto7

I'm just gonna chime in in defense of smartphones: modern smartphones take some damn good photos. If you own at least an iPhone 5 or better, your phone can take some pretty accurate pictures. You don't need a top of the line DSLR to take a picture that properly represents reality. "Smartphone pictures" just isn't an excuse in this day and age.

I've got nothing new to contribute besides that. I'm pretty sure everyone knows this anyway, but I hadn't seen it mentioned before.


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## bzhan1

mbardu said:


> So now creating a 15-page topic on sso means getting a free guitar? Interesting.



Agree, hope this doesn't set a trend here. All this drama over a slightly different colored guitar is just such a first world thing to do.


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## Emperor Guillotine

bzhan1 said:


> Agree, hope this doesn't set a trend here. All this drama over a slightly different colored guitar is just such a first world thing to do.


So now those who live in a first-world country are not allowed to live/act like they live in a first-world country? I, for one, am not going to act like I live in a third-world country just to appease you.


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## Hollowway

Yeah, I'm fairly high up on Maslow's hierarchy, so for now, anyway, I'm worrying more about the looks of my guitars than whether I'll be eaten by a tiger tonight. 



*The above is a joke, and not intended to diminish the fight those in third world countries have to survive and thrive. They are, I think we would all agree, much more manly than I.


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## Jonathan20022

Emperor Guillotine said:


> I need to address this.
> 
> Kiesel posted this pic of this guitar yesterday asking for opinions. Everyone (I mean, EVERYONE) agreed that the fade was nonexistent and the transition from teal to blue was too abrupt due to the lack of a proper fade. Kiesel completely ignored the concurring opinion and instead just completed the guitar anyway (new pic is up on their social media) without refinishing the top or changing anything. Now everyone is kissing ass on this guitar and saying "how great it looks" instead of acknowledging that Kiesel didn't address or fix the lack of a fade. ARE YOU KIDDING ME???
> 
> See how the online hype bullsh*t works now? People are willing to overlook the lazy, careless, half-assed work based on the excuse of: "oh, it was just because of the lighting and the angle and my phone's camera".



I like how you didn't even bother to post the finalized guitar 







Looks great, and people are just out on a witch hunt at this point. Not to ignore any of Kiesel's hiccups, but there is far more to be upset about in the luthier world. Like builders ignoring customers and stealing their cash without a single bat of an eye.


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## Emperor Guillotine

Jonathan20022 said:


> I like how you didn't even bother to post the finalized guitar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great, and people are just out on a witch hunt at this point. Not to ignore any of Kiesel's hiccups, but there is far more to be upset about in the luthier world.


I couldn't figure out how to insert/display the image from the Instagram pic using the tag.

Jonathan, the only reason you support them and are trying to brush this off is because you're an admin/mod for Wired Guitarist, which is run by a Kiesel employee and overhypes Kiesel as part of the deal.

That guitar's top finish is the exact same as when Jeff posted the initial picture. He posted a picture of a crappy attempt at a fade asking for opinions, got pretty much unanimous negative feedback, ignored the negative feedback, and continued to finish putting the guitar together regardless. Why even ask for feedback? We know by now that his skills with getting a good finish are a coin toss.


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## Jonathan20022

I haven't been a mod in there in months, and he who shall not be named left WG for a job at Kiesel long before that. Just so you can get your facts straight, besides getting in on a single Carvin run, I've paid full price for all my guitars and I reserve my right to have my opinion on anything I've played/owned because contrary to popular belief just because you clean up spam in a Facebook page doesn't mean you're getting a discount on anything  to promote for any brand in an unrelenting manner.

Sorry if that's inappropriate mods, but if someone wants to try to drag my name in the mud by association and accuse me of shilling you should absolutely get your information straight. If you'd like to continue talking about this feel free to message me 

The fade looks fine, OP's guitar doesn't and it's unfortunate that the situation had to devolve into what it did. You're simply pulling at straw hairs to pile onto a completely irrelevant .... show of a situation.


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## Grand Moff Tim

The "fade" is just as lulzy in that pic as it was in the first one that was posted. 

I'm sure it's still a perfectly nice guitar, though, and what really matters is whether or not the client is happy with it, which we don't know. We do know that the client in this thread wasn't satisfied with his, though, and it was handled poorly. It's cool that he seems to be getting a happy ending out of it all, though.

Like how I tried to bring it back on topic there?


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## Jonathan20022

Yeah it really all depends on what the customer ordered and if they're satisfied with the result. Hope Konstantine has a great experience with the luthier rebuilding his guitar.


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## Rawkmann




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## mbardu

Rawkmann said:


>



Wow...usually PRS are a tad more ... even and regular and progressive fades.

This one is very abrupt too. Dark blue, no transition, teal, no transition, lighter still etc... Crazy right


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## Rawkmann

Lol, I guess finishes like these are really subjective. I thought the PRS one looked great!


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## mbardu

Rawkmann said:


> Lol, I guess finishes like these are really subjective. I thought the PRS one looked great!



Well I didn't mean to say that the PRS didn't look great... actually I think both look great!


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## Hollowway

Yeah, Jonathan, I was wondering why you defend Kiesel at every turn, myself. You even started an account at MG.org just to get into Konstantine's thread over there and defend Kiesel. I don't have a particular problem with it, since I like their guitars as well, but if you do have some sort of particular reason you defend that brand specifically, you should just point it out. The last thing you want is for people to speculate that your reasons are insincere for some financial interest or something. Cuz if that's not true, it would be a sucky rep to get stuck with. You seem like a cool dude to me, but it even looks to me like you're hunting for people with negative opinions about Kiesel, and then arguing against them.


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## metale

I see at least 4 shades on the PRS, I would call that 'more progressive' than the teal to dark-blue transition.


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## mbardu

metale said:


> I see at least 4 shades on the PRS, I would call that 'more progressive' than the teal to dark-blue transition.



Actually that's my point too. Exactly the same as on the Carvin: you're able to tell exactly the number of shades and where each one starts and ends, so there's not much 'progression' or fading happening at all. Just different shades side by side. Which is what people were mocking on the Carvin and suddenly would be awesome on the PRS. Such double standards and hate-party.

To be clear, I don't have a horse in the game (in fact I probably have more $$ in PRS than in Carvin these days), it's just funny how every couple of months SSO alternates from Carvin/Kiesel hate/bash-a-thon to absolute love and admiration ... and back again.

What I mean by a 'pgroessive' fade:











You can't really say where it starts and where it ends.
Both builders can succeed and fail on the same here, but apparently double standards.. (note that I'm only qualifying the smooth fade as the 'success' in the Kiesel above...not necessarily endorsing the rest of the over-the-top build  )


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## narad

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Jonathan, the only reason you support them and are trying to brush this off is because you're an admin/mod for Wired Guitarist, which is run by a Kiesel employee and overhypes Kiesel as part of the deal.



Besides all that being not true, have you seen Jonathan's K7? Pfft, I'd be a fan too if they handed me that guitar.


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## LordCashew

Hollowway said:


> Is it too early for us to all speculate about which luthier it is, and then tear down each others' suggestions?



Didn't Ormsby do something like this before? But IIRC, the offending guitar was destroyed...


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## Grand Moff Tim

mbardu said:


> Which is what people were mocking on the Carvin and suddenly would be awesome on the PRS. Such double standards and hate-party.



"Such double standards?"

Which of the people here who mocked that Kiesel fade were praising that PRS again? 

You can't accuse people of double standards when nobody that was taking one side is saying the other thing. That's just the narrative you've got going in your head.

As for the hate party.... yeah, I can see that. 
I'll admit I like a bit of forum drama, but it does get a bit silly sometimes.

I don't think it has as much pendulum action as some people might think. The attitudes towards Kiesel aren't really going back and forth so much as there are two very vocal groups, and you just see both groups shouting about things at various points. I don't think it's often the case that the people around here who are riding Jeff's jock one week are the same people looking down their noses the next.

All that said, I think the company deserves all the flack they get when they come in to a thread like this and give the response they gave. My only hope is that when this thread inevitably gets locked, it doesn't also get deleted. It needs to stick around so it'll come up in searches whenever anyone is thinking about getting a Kiesel.


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## laxu

Jonathan20022 said:


> I like how you didn't even bother to post the finalized guitar
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks great, and people are just out on a witch hunt at this point. Not to ignore any of Kiesel's hiccups, but there is far more to be upset about in the luthier world. Like builders ignoring customers and stealing their cash without a single bat of an eye.



It looks a lot better in this second pic as you can actually see the transition between the colors. Personally I would've gone for something akin to the PRS posted but maybe this is how the customer wanted it?


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## Lemons

At what point are we debating if the PRS looks better than the Carvin? Seeing as neither of them have anything to do with the origin of this thread.


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## Randy

This thread has become #thedress of guitar finishes.


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## Fred the Shred

Jonathan20022 said:


> I haven't been a mod in there in months, and *he who shall not be named left WG* for a job at Kiesel long before that.



Just imagined Voldemort doing marketing for guitar companies!


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## Ordacleaphobia

Randy said:


> This thread has become #thedress of guitar finishes.



Randy, please, save us from this.
This thread was over at-worst 2 pages ago. We can move to the luthier section at this point lol, talking about proper fading technique.

For the record, the blue Kiesel was my favorite of the two posted above. Definitely well done. Like we've all said, they *can* do great things, its just a question of whether or not they *will*....


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## Jonathan20022

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, Jonathan, I was wondering why you defend Kiesel at every turn, myself. You even started an account at MG.org just to get into Konstantine's thread over there and defend Kiesel. I don't have a particular problem with it, since I like their guitars as well, but if you do have some sort of particular reason you defend that brand specifically, you should just point it out. The last thing you want is for people to speculate that your reasons are insincere for some financial interest or something. Cuz if that's not true, it would be a sucky rep to get stuck with. You seem like a cool dude to me, but it even looks to me like you're hunting for people with negative opinions about Kiesel, and then arguing against them.



I defend them no harder than I've defended Ernie Ball, Strandberg, Mayones, Jackson, Aristides, etc. I've been posting here for awhile, and when I'm a fan of a company and I've owned several of their instruments and have had a positive experience, I'll totally chime in with that too. I'm certainly not unreasonable about how I approach it, but when I see people saying "QC must be going down the drain" when they see what, a sample pool of lets say and stretch it to 5 guitars on a single forum? I'm sure mbardu feels the same way, also why would Kiesel or anyone give a discount to a nobody like me? Calling me a mod on WG is an overstatement, since all I really did was help around cleaning up spam and BS whenever I had a few spare minutes. Also my post on MG was hardly a defense, just threw my 2 cents in there saying that there is outrage for certain companies, and for others you'll get a dozen knights stand up and brush off your experience because they had single good one. For example, I wonder how people would react if I posted a thread here saying that The Axe Palace screwed me for over a year. They even sent me a guitar with their "pro setup" which immediately needed a brand new nut because their tech decided buzz everywhere was a compromise for low action. It's all a matter of proportion, meanwhile Darren abandoned ship over here and stopped commenting on the Decibel thread while communicating in just about every other location on the internet, criticizing other luthiers 

But lately, if you see Kiesel do borderline anything, wether it's annoying marketing antics, designs people don't like, a screwup (Which is warranted, mind you). You see a thread with double digit pages of people dog piling on them, not even Gibson gets this much flack 



Fred the Shred said:


> Just imagined Voldemort doing marketing for guitar companies!


----------



## Randy

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Randy, please, save us from this.
> This thread was over at-worst 2 pages ago. We can move to the luthier section at this point lol, talking about proper fading technique.



FWIW, with the last thread about a messed up Kiesel being deleted (which none of the mods had any involvement in), we were taking a lot of flak about bias/favoritism toward Carvin/Kiesel and being accused of muzzling people with legitimate complaints. Both my comments to 'calm down' in the official Carvin thread and in this one yielded several complaints that were "doing it again" trying to let Kiesel off the hook. 

Meanwhile, everything I've said and done has been totally consistent with my 8 years of volunteering (as in I've never been paid or gotten a kickback to do, _ever_) to moderate on this forum. When a thread gets popular and a lot of views on it, everybody starts piling onto eachother to score 'internet points' and things become uncivil and bloated with nonsense quickly. By allowing threads to spiral out of control 1.) people hold grudges with one another and the incivility spills into other threads 2.) it's assumed posting non-sense is now legitimized and you get a strong uptick in pointless posts/threads, which make navigating the forum unnecessarily difficult.

I've had a fairly consistent ideology on this. The thread happens, let the storyline play out. OP and the related parties have a right to have the story heard and to reach some kind of resolution. Likewise, it's a community and there's nothing wrong with the members joining in and building a consensus. However, once you get to the point where a solution has been found or there's an absolute impasse, and people unrelated to initial matter start bumping the thread with OT or regurgitating points that were made several days/weeks previously, the thread has officially met it's shelf-life. That's where a lock usually comes in. The thread still has utility for anybody who should happen across it by searching the internet, so it should be preserved to mark what happened, in context... I also leave open the option for OP and other parties directly involved to PM me or other moderators to post relevant updates, possibly re-opening the thread if something new of substance comes to the surface.

In this case, with all the criticism over how "we" handle Kiesel on here, I decided to let everybody have a chance to see what a thread looks like when the members are allowed to govern themselves, unfettered. Regardless of what position we're in on the mess of a thread, I think we can all agree we're sick of everyone else in here and long overdue for a lock.

As I stated previously, if OP or other individuals directly related want something added, PM me. At this point most or all of the conversation going on right now would be better served in it's own thread.


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## Konstantine

***Final update 5/3/16***

I made one last attempt today to reconcile this whole situation with Kiesel over the phone today (5/3/16) asking if they would please just refund the $300 price of the photomatch like I had asked in the beginning since it was not a photomatch at all so I don't get killed on trying to resale the guitar. I feel bad for the customer service guy stuck being Jeff's messenger as he was at least polite talking to me although he had to be Jeff's mouthpiece on the phone. 

After telling customer service what I said above about a refund for the photo upcharge, he informed me that Jeff had gotten word of what happened on the fb fan page which seems like would've made Jeff stand by me to make things right at that point and save face, considering I (a paying customer mind you) was fiercely flamed and personally attacked by fanboys on there) but no, jeff was upset that I took to the internet to complain and could care less about the treatment I've been getting through this whole ordeal.

I reminded the customer service rep that I had spoken with them numerous times to try and work this out and just get a refund for the photomatch before resorting to social media to voice my disappointment. 

This next part is almost comical at this point... He then told me that my account is flagged and I am forbidden from ever being a customer again because Jeff "does not want to do business like this". Gee, that seems like quite a mature response, good thing I don't even want to be a customer ever again after this. For the amount of money spent and the amount of time I patiently waited to receive this item (more than half a year when considering the wait for the first flawed guitar), this has to be the worst customer service experience I've ever had. I STRONGLY caution anyone to take a hard look at how this owner handles his business before spending your hard earned money with them.

A synopsis will be added to the first post with this update included to save people time reading through this whole thing. Thanks again for giving us, the consumer, a voice against utterly poor service. /thread.


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