# Need opinions - my 2nd guitarist won't use any other amp than...



## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.

My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.


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## Emperoff (May 12, 2022)

I can't fault anyone for wanting to use the gear they love. 

Disliking playing wireless on the other hand... That is not human. That guy is a monster.


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## DestroyMankind (May 12, 2022)

I own guitar pedals that are considered "entry level"..and I've been playing for around 15 years. I'm really confused on what you need opinions on.


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## Demiurge (May 12, 2022)

Well... does he sound good with it? If so, then don't worry about it, aside from encouraging him to get a backup if reliability is truly an issue. If he insists on using the amp and it sounds like shit, then there's a real problem.


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

DestroyMankind said:


> I'm really confused on what you need opinions on.


It's a Crate GLX. I'm guessing you never heard their Flex Wave distortion? Like a buzzing hornets nest. Plus reliability.


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## Choop (May 12, 2022)

Honestly it doesn't sound too awfully bad from just youtube samples haha, at least for what it is. I personally would never use it, but I was expecting worse.. A JCM 900 would be quite different...maybe he would be cool with using a 6505/XXX or something.


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

Choop said:


> maybe he would be cool with using a 6505/XXX or something.


Nope. He said only the Crate,and he has two so he has a backup lol


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

I guess I'd say I'm more concerned about the personality trait of being so closed minded and not open to being flexible.


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## Choop (May 12, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> Nope. He said only the Crate,and he has two so he has a backup lol



ahaha wow! Kind of blows my mind, like I can understand being somewhat satisfied with your sound, especially if it was gotten on the cheap, but I'm shocked it's the sound he always wanted lol, so he says.



Rev2010 said:


> I guess I'd say I'm more concerned about the personality trait of being so closed minded and not open to being flexible.



Yeah, that seems like it could be more of an issue in the future.


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## tedtan (May 12, 2022)

Demiurge said:


> Well... does he sound good with it? If so, then don't worry about it, aside from encouraging him to get a backup if reliability is truly an issue. If he insists on using the amp and it sounds like shit, then there's a real problem.


This right here.


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

He even tried to convince me we should use A432 reference tuning instead of A440. I just wish for once I could meet band members that didn't come with so many odd quirks.


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## devastone (May 12, 2022)

Ask me about some of the women I've dated, oh nevermind, wrong forum. 

Yeah, I understand your concern, he's closed minded and needs to see an audiologist, I get it.


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## works0fheart (May 12, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> He even tried to convince me we should use A432 reference tuning instead of A440. I just wish for once I could meet band members that didn't come with so many odd quirks.



You're still not answering the most asked question here though: Does it sound good when he plays through it? At the end of the day this is all that should matter.


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

works0fheart said:


> You're still not answering the most asked question here though: Does it sound good when he plays through it? At the end of the day this is all that should matter.


IMO no. It sounds buzzy and is very very noisy. There's a lot more hiss when he's at the same volume as me on a Dual Rec.


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## budda (May 12, 2022)

Then he needs less gain. 

How does the actual band sound as a unit?


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## tedtan (May 12, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> He even tried to convince me we should use A432 reference tuning instead of A440. I just wish for once I could meet band members that didn't come with so many odd quirks.


OK, 432, he’s got to go.


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## Grindspine (May 12, 2022)

So, I recall bands like Prong, Death, and even At the Gates using some very very shitty amps back in the day, yet with some studio work, the albums sounded epic.

I mean, Slaughter of the Soul ...



> "I remember some of it, but not 100%. I had a PEAVEY supreme
> 
> 160 amp (which is solid state) playing on the clean channel. I had two distortion
> 
> ...



If epic tone can come from shite gear, go with it. It sounds like reliability is less of a problem since the guy has a spare Crate. I mean, I have three Mesa amps in this room (Triaxis, Mark 525, Simul 2:ninety), a DarkGlass bass amp, but still have my old Crate GX sitting in the corner as a pedal platform. 

Quirkiness can be annoying. But as said above, if the guy can get a good studio tone with your band and that amp, it may be worth letting it go. On the other hand, if your recordings sound bad, have the studio engineer approach him about trying a different amp. Maybe coming from someone behind the board, the opinion will carry more weight.


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## Bodes (May 12, 2022)

Record both his amp and a DI.
If his amp doesn't fit in the mix, tell the person recording you to discretely reamp after the fact without telling your guitarist. 
Might cost you a little extra cash, but it could be worth it...


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> On the other hand, if your recordings sound bad, have the studio engineer approach him about trying a different amp. Maybe coming from someone behind the board, the opinion will carry more weight.


Thank you. Now that is good advice!


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 12, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> So, I recall bands like Prong, Death, and even At the Gates using some very very shitty amps back in the day, yet with some studio work, the albums sounded epic.
> 
> I mean, Slaughter of the Soul ...
> 
> ...


Off topic but I wouldn't exactly call the 8100 and Peavey Supreme shit amps. The 8100 is pretty legendary and the Supreme is getting a good reputation too. The GX1200 is serviceable, but I wouldn't put it on par with those 2.

Also @Rev2010 worse comes to worse, have your bud track a DI and sneak in the Recto for recording.


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## pahulkster (May 12, 2022)

Is it Jack Owen?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (May 12, 2022)

pahulkster said:


> Is it Jack Owen?


OP said he isn't using a multi-FX so there's no POD 2.0.


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## Bdtunn (May 12, 2022)

Some of the best tones I ever got was through a solid state crate gx-212, it had this bright switch that just lite it on fire. I also had a cheap little zoom multi effect running with it


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## fantom (May 12, 2022)

Bodes said:


> Record both his amp and a DI.
> If his amp doesn't fit in the mix, tell the person recording you to discretely reamp after the fact without telling your guitarist.
> Might cost you a little extra cash, but it could be worth it...


This.

Your guitar player is responsible for tracking parts, not making the album sound good. Leave the choice of amps and guitar tone to the recording engineer or mixing engineer.

Then... You gotta deal with his live tone... Probably easier to kick him out over it. Reminds me of a guitar player that insisted on leaving the mid and presence knobs at 0 on a solid state amp. He completely got drowned out in any shows. I pleaded that we compromise and try to sound similar, even if I had to buy a different amp, so the band doesn't sound like two completely different genres. He wouldn't budge on his amp settings or tone. And people noticed how bad he sounded.


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## wheresthefbomb (May 12, 2022)

it looks like he can get replacements for ~$100 each, so at least reliability isn't an issue

If my favorite amp was that cheap I would have a wall of them

edit: as for your question, the A=432 thing is a bigger red flag to me than anything else mentioned so far. makes one wonder what other interesting things he believes.


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## Rev2010 (May 12, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> it looks like he can get replacements for ~$100 each, so at least reliability isn't an issue


If an amp fails mid performance live what difference does it make how many backups someone bought?.


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## wheresthefbomb (May 12, 2022)

Fair question. I was sort of joking, also though, I have definitely seen people have an amp fail mid set, swap in the replacement, and not have it ruin the experience.

That all kind of hinged on it being a great show otherwise, though, which sad to say it sounds like your odds of that may be fairly slim.

It is my sage prediction that this dude is going to continue to put up red flags and become more and more of a hassle.


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## STRHelvete (May 12, 2022)

Easy solutions.

Have him record DI tracks. Does his sound work in a mix and/or band setting? If so then what does it matter what he uses?

If he sounds bad and is comfortable making the entire group sound bad then he's a detriment to the band and should be removed


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## WarMachine (May 13, 2022)

Is he a long time member or just joining? If it's the ladder, I'd tell him get your shit matched or gtfo at this point. It's already been brought up and he's basically just saying fuck you I do it my way.

Then again, this could be the reason why I currently don't have a band  

But seriously, if it's gonna make the band sound better as a whole, then he should WANT to do that. If it's dragging you guys down because of it, then I'd say it's time for him to go.


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## Iron1 (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> He even tried to convince me we should use A432 reference tuning instead of A440. I just wish for once I could meet band members that didn't come with so many odd quirks.


My lead guitar player is in another band and their rhythm player got all insistent on the 432 nonsense, swearing up and down it would be the one thing that made them stand out from every other band, ever. When we all stopped laughing at that, dude got fired. 

I had a Crate for a hot second back in the 90s. Still traumatized by how insanely awful that POS was... but, like others have said, IF he gets a good tone with it and the studio engineer can make it work, don't sweat it. If the tone blows, like most Crates, and he won't step off the 432 nonsense, launch him and record all the guitar tracks yourself.


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## LostTheTone (May 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Also @Rev2010 worse comes to worse, have your bud track a DI and sneak in the Recto for recording.



Can't believe no-one else is mentioning this part. 

Just record the DI and the amp - That's not even that weird to do, since it would give some options for tweaking in post. If his amp sucks, re-amp his lines through your amp, or stick it on Archetype Gojira or something. You can even do this live if you want to. It's not super common but some people do run their stack just as their own monitor and then have a DI/modeller/IR chain that they run to the FoH. I always run guitars into my monitors via a DI too, so I never hear their real tone, I hear a version with a big fat EQ band taken out in the middle so I can hear myself through it. It's no big deal. It's 2022, we have flying cars, we can make this shit work.


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## jaxadam (May 13, 2022)

Sounds like you need a 3rd guitarist.


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## Demiurge (May 13, 2022)

Is this dude some sort of generational talent where there needs to be all this extra effort to accommodate him with a DI workaround?


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## GunpointMetal (May 13, 2022)

Seems like a problem that isn't a problem. Some of those 90's Crates were SUPER reliable. If it's got the sound and feel he's after, then it's the right piece of gear. I do think that when it comes to recording people should be flexible with what they use if the sounds aren't there, but at the end of the day distorted guitar gets mangled into a mix with EQ most of the time anyways so if that amp is what gets the best performance, again, that's the right piece of gear. Some people hear with their eyes and it is super annoying. I had a guitarist trying out for MY BAND 8-9 years ago that was outwardly bothered by the fact that I played a modeler into a Crate powerblock into a "no-name" 4x12 (loaded with Celestion/Eminence) and told me on a break that he "couldn't take a band seriously without name brand gear". Needless to say he didn't come back a second time. Mostly because we didn't invite him. In spite of his $2k guitar and $3k amp rig he couldn't hang.


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## Emperoff (May 13, 2022)

I'm sorry but considering the cult after the Boss HM-2, I learned to understand some people just love their tones to sound like shit. Now you will too!


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## neurosis (May 13, 2022)

Sucks when you're dealing with somebody that is stubborn and unwilling to adapt in a context where it's needed but I am curious about the actual output from this guy. If he can make it sound killer and it allows him to express himself the way he wants then why force him to change it? Unless it's not right for the style of the project you play. But then I wonder how you guys got together in the first place. There's nothing fundamentally wrong here, you two may just be a mismatch. My philosophy is that there's no bad projects, just stuff that works or doesn't work for you. If you have a vision and need to stick to it there may be a compromise you don't want to make. And apparently neither does he


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## Crungy (May 13, 2022)

Another vote for DI, or record the Crate and the Marshall or your Mesa at the same time.


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## CanserDYI (May 13, 2022)

I think dude is worried about playing live, not recording. So not really helpful to tell him to use a DI. 

Do you have another amp for him to use? Advise him how you feel about the sound, tell him to try with another amp just for a practice to see how he feels about how it works compared to the crate, and if he genuinely likes the crate more, and dude is a good part of your band, you gotta back off.


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## odibrom (May 13, 2022)

... questions unanswered:

1 - Does he REALLY play or is he just filing in the shoes?
2 - Is he a good fellow or is he a prick all the fucking time?
3 - Is he contributing for the band's compositions?
4 - Is he really necessary for the band's output?

My point is, for a band to work, one has to make compromises, it's as simple as that. And one has to compromise on all sides of being in a band, either in gear as in ideas contributions or money injection whenever and wherever needed. It looks to me he is not compromising much. Since I'm with PSIORB, I've changed my guitars, my amp/rig settings and even my playing in order for everyone to be happy, me included. I'm not there yet for sure, mostly because it's a path and not a destination, but I'm open to discussion, I have to. He doesn't seem to be open to discussion on some sides of band life, and that's a major NO for me.

Ok, I get that sometimes one isn't fortunate enough to have quality gear and has to make due with what's available at hand, but there's a path, objectives and goals one traces in order to get the most out of everyone's available time. He seems that he has blocked some of that possible progression. A big part of expression is self doubt, it's what drives one forward, it's the "what if" bug that hits either in playing technique, composition approach, behavior with others and yes, tone as well...


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## mikeymike (May 13, 2022)

Imagine taking a crate into the studio. I feel bad for the staff there... What a goober.


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## c7spheres (May 13, 2022)

- I can understand being dead set on something you want when going into the studio. Why spend time forging your tone if it's not gonna be used on the recording? It's like wearing someone elses clothing for a day then advertising it's how you always dress, when really you just rented all that bling. - Sure ,a/b it against other stuff, but you have to at least try your tone too. Same thing with guitars. You're not gonna get the same performance from a guitar you're not familiar with (not necessarliy worse), but trying new toys and experimenting in the studio = $$$
- However, if you're making the album and forging a sound in studio, then try everything they got! When the albums done buy new gear to accomodate your new sound. It's two different approaches. Capture an existing sound or create a new one.
- I think sometimes engineers want people to use their magic Strat, Marshall etc..they have on hand at the studio because they're familiar with getting good recorded tones out of them. By throwing a unique or odd setup at them would actually challenge them and they might not be able to deliver the goods. They know they can give a good result with their gear. Chances are they can't with yours cause they're not familiar enough with it and haven't experimented with it enough.

- As mentioned by others, Do a DI so you can reamp it.
- I'd record everything absolutely and exactly how he wants it, then, have him record again with what you want, or do a reamp DI if he won't, and then a/b them to see which is best. This way you both get to do it your way and see eachothers results, but it has to be actually fair though. Each person must be able to do it their way (mic palcements etc) It's like a studio rock-off challenge of sorts. : ) If it's gonna be a Reamp then do his recording first so Reamping can't be blamed for his rig not sounding as good if it turns out that way.

- If he's not willing to compromise even one track to even see if it's better your way or not then maybe it's time to reevalutae and talk about what the end goal is. Be careful, it's no coincidence how many bands break up or change members shortly after of before the album/EP comes out.
- In all honesty this stuff should have been worked out while the songs and tones were being forged. Just do it both ways and my guess is when he hears the Marshall deliver the goods compared to his Crate he'll want one, but he just might be married to that tone. You both deserve a try at this. Maybe one sounds better live and one better on the recording. You just don't know until you try. Be open about his stubborness. It just might come out better than you think. My point is if you don't give him his fair chance to do exactly what he wants he may feel like a hired gun instead of a member and things may get worse. He might surprise you.

- As far as reliability on gear goes all you can do is get a backup and make sure everything is tip top, been checked by a tech etc. Maybe get a new cap job and give a thorough TLC etc. Even new stuff fails randomly. Not even John Mayer's $200k Dumble or whatever it is can keep a tube from blowng. It happens to Metallica all the time too, hehe. All you can do is preventative maintenence and treat it well.


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## budda (May 13, 2022)

OP hasnt mentioned how the rest of the band feels.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (May 13, 2022)

I’m staying out of this, Crate makes some great sounding amps. GX130C for life.


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## PatientMental76 (May 13, 2022)

It all boils down to if it sounds good not what the brand is! If it clearly sounds like shit change it, if not leave it alone plain & simple!


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

neurosis said:


> If he can make it sound killer and it allows him to express himself the way he wants then why force him to change it?


Not forcing him to change at all. And the DI suggestions for recording is exactly what I was thinking for when that time comes. But, does it not seem odd to not just use the head in the studio? I mean, would you bring your own amp head in the rain to the studio? That seems really stubborn to me. Like "No I can't use any other amp!".


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## odibrom (May 13, 2022)

budda said:


> OP hasnt mentioned how the rest of the band feels.



+1 ... very important as well...

One question I forgot, when in a band, one has to play for the whole band, not for himself, so the "my tone" wimp is kind of defeated. Is his tone fitting in the band, is his tone adequate and helps translate de band's expression? Yes, keep it, no, transform, either he hits the road or his gear.

@Rev2010 why can't he use any other amp? now that got me curious, is it an emotional thing like the amp was given by his grandfather or he doesn't know how to dial other amps or something else? Simply because a "no because no" kind of answer is super lame and but kicking justification IMO...


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## GunpointMetal (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> Not forcing him to change at all. And the DI suggestions for recording is exactly what I was thinking for when that time comes. But, does it not seem odd to not just use the head in the studio? I mean, would you bring your own amp head in the rain to the studio? That seems really stubborn to me. Like "No I can't use any other amp!".


I always bring my own gear to record. Or at least I used to before I just did all my recording DI with modelers. Even with reamping or "better" recording options, being comfortable in the situation is super important. Even if the amp ends up being a security blanket that's just a foot rest in the control room, I would bring it.


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## Nick Szalai (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.
> 
> My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.


Just have your recording engineer take a DI track during recording.


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## Brayden Buckingham (May 13, 2022)

If the dude can shred and isn't a dick I'd just accept his tone and try and work with it . Maybe record and if it's doo doo aim better for the next EP ? 

It's pretty hard finding people who are putting in effort to a mutual project so basically as long as you have some drive and politeness during it , I'm happy . If anything at least your setup will sound good ?


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## Brandonlameduhh (May 13, 2022)

Sounds like you need a new guitarist. If the amp sounds bad and he’s not willing to change his gear then if you ask me it’s more hassle than worth. I don’t know your background with the guy but I’ve had to kick out even my closest friends if they can’t adapt and work with the rest of the band. 

There’s some good advice in here in regards to having an audio engineer offer advice but the guitarist sounds stubborn. I appreciate his mindset of going against the grain I guess but you guys have clear creative differences in regards to tone and even tuning.

This all just sounds like a bad fit. If the rest of the band sees the issues then just cut him loose. If he’s this stubborn about things like this, you’re bound to run into more problems down the line.


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## Emperoff (May 13, 2022)

At this point I'm wondering why after three pages @Rev2010 hasn't answered a single question about how the rest of the band feel about this (or basically anything else besides offensive taste in gear).

Is he a nice dude? Can he shred is ass off? Is he a great musician? And most importantly, are all of his quirks worth the trouble?

It turns out, nobody's perfect and a big part of being in a band is learning to live with each other's quirks. Unless the cons greatly outweight the pros, of course (in which case the sensible choice is to kick his ass out of the band).

Always remember that taste is subjective. You would probably be burnt at a stake if the Jackson USA Facebook group purists knew you put a 3+4 headstock in a Kelly .


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

odibrom said:


> 1 - Does he REALLY play or is he just filing in the shoes?
> 2 - Is he a good fellow or is he a prick all the fucking time?
> 3 - Is he contributing for the band's compositions?
> 4 - Is he really necessary for the band's output?


1 - He's a good player. Oddly enough he's better at soloing than rhythm but he's fine at rhythm.
2 - He's genuinely a good guy
3 - He just joined the project. We've only gotten together twice, once at my place and once in the studio to try out a drummer. That's part of the reason I'm concerned since we're just getting to know each other.
4 - A 2nd guitarist is absolutely necessary for the music I / we are doing.


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## GunpointMetal (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> 1 - He's a good player. Oddly enough he's better at soloing than rhythm but he's fine at rhythm.
> 2 - He's genuinely a good guy
> 3 - He just joined the project. We've only gotten together twice, once at my place and once in the studio to try out a drummer. That's part of the reason I'm concerned since we're just getting to know each other.
> 4 - A 2nd guitarist is absolutely necessary for the music I / we are doing.


If you've only worked together twice I think it's a little early to start dictating gear.


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## bostjan (May 13, 2022)

I don't think it's worth trying to micromanage another musician's gear choices or whatever. Just give the person honest feedback, both positive and negative, unless no positive feedback is applicable, in which case, I think firing that individual might be the only solution.

Ok, so, please hear me out: If this particular individual wants to use a Crate GX-whatever or wants to make fucked suggestions like tuning 432 Hz, let them do what they want, let the band discuss those ideas, and move on with your own life. Maybe after weeding through a few dumb decisions, you'll come across a gem. I'd discourage punishing anyone for thinking outside of the box, but, on the other hand, if the ideas are only counter-productive, the person will probably eventually get discouraged that their ideas never get included and give up anyway. As for tone or what they play, even, leave it up to the band to decide (or, if this is a one-man show and you are hiring these people as basically mercenaries, maybe consider confronting him directly). If you have a problem with this person's tone, maybe approach another band mate discretely and bring it up in a non-accusatory way. Or, again, if you are the decision-maker, confront him directly. Anyway, maybe the end result of all of this could be a good thing, and then everybody has fun and the band sounds good, so everything ends up problem-free.

But... if the person isn't going to function as a team player or pull their weight, and the rest of the band can't get through, then fire them and move on. It feels bad, but guitarists are a dime a dozen and ultimately the less of your own and the guitarist's time you end up wasting, the better.

The main purpose of music is supposed to be fun. If you aren't having fun with it, or your bandmates aren't having fun, or the audience isn't having fun, then what's the point? Don't be a fun governor, but also don't tolerate anyone else who ruins your fun.


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> At this point I'm wondering why after three pages OP hasn't answered a single question about how the rest of the band feel about this (or basically anything else besides offensive taste in gear).



I just answered those questions in my last post. As for the rest of the band there's only one other member and that's the bassist. He hasn't met the new 2nd guitarist yet since he couldn't get off from work for the studio session to tryout the drummer - hence when I'm on here asking y'all for your opinions....


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## odibrom (May 13, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you've only worked together twice I think it's a little early to start dictating gear.


... or saying he's genuinely a good guy...?

..........


... and so, to be clear, the band is starting out, the studio session was a rehearsal one, not recording...
A few years back I was going to a local rehearsal studio which had some Marshall MG heads and cabs. One time I was waiting for our schedule to use one of the studio's rooms and I see a fellow younger guitar player entering his room with a Marshall MG head... "WTF?" I thought, and commented with the studio's owner about it to which he replied that said guitar player felt his head sounded better (meaning what in a rental by the hour studio?). The studio's and the guitar player's heads were the same exact model (different face graphic design, but the same) and Marshall MG heads were kind of entry level ones... so this story goes in the same ballpark as yours.

..........

... and again, why can't he play anything else?


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you've only worked together twice I think it's a little early to start dictating gear.



Again, I'm not "dictating gear". I just find it quirky as fuck to be slave bound to a fucking shitty Crate amp so much so that you have to take it with you to a studio. I mean really... does nobody find that bizarre? I pay to use the equipment in the studio. I don't cart my Mesa Triple with me, I play through what's there. It's not a live gig where you want to ensure you have your signature sound.

But that's why I'm asking for opinions on here. Just want to know if I'm crazy here or if this sort of thing is indeed odd.


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## Dark Aegis (May 13, 2022)

If you’re worried about his tone in the studio why not just play both your parts and his yourself?


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

odibrom said:


> ... or saying he's genuinely a good guy...?



We've talked for a bit before meeting up. So far he's been very nice and polite. But little by little some things that are concerning me are coming out - like the A432 thing, then there's the whole "change the band name" thing, then there's the "I got along fine for two decades without an effect unit" thing, then there's the "Nah no wireless for me man, I'm an old school cable only guy" thing, then there's the "Only amp I'll play through is my Crate 1200H" thing, etc.

I didn't want to list all this shit but there it is. I'm just concerned, nothing wrong with that.


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## GunpointMetal (May 13, 2022)

I mean, quirky is kind of the game when it comes to musicians IME. I also misunderstood this to mean "recording studio" when it appears to be a rented rehearsal space.


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## MFB (May 13, 2022)

I like everyone in here suggesting him to recording as a DI, as if he wouldn't IMMEDIATELY question that and wonder why they aren't tracking the Crate that he's so in love with.


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

odibrom said:


> @Rev2010 why can't he use any other amp? now that got me curious, is it an emotional thing like the amp was given by his grandfather or he doesn't know how to dial other amps or something else?



His answer when I asked that was, "I've tried nearly every other amp out there and the Crate is the only one that gave me the distorted tone I was looking for".


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## Crungy (May 13, 2022)

MFB said:


> I like everyone in here suggesting him to recording as a DI, as if he wouldn't IMMEDIATELY question that and wonder why they aren't tracking the Crate that he's so in love with.


I thought people were suggesting the Crate and DI... I know I did! 

It sounds like he's an okay dude, though if he stays stubborn about gear and is asking you to change things coming into YOUR project that sounds like a mess waiting to happen.


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## Bpebler (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> Thank you. Now that is good advice!


Absolutely. In an Ice Nine Kills interview, the frontman said when there’s a disagreement then the use a 3rd party - recording professional - to be the mediator & they always default to what his advice is & it’s a win every time. Even though the opinions may linger, the advice was followed, the sound is great, & everyone stays together as a unit.


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## Emperoff (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> I just answered those questions in my last post. As for the rest of the band there's only one other member and that's the bassist. He hasn't met the new 2nd guitarist yet since he couldn't get off from work for the studio session to tryout the drummer - hence when I'm on here asking y'all for your opinions....



I'm gonna side with @GunpointMetal here. If the first-second time I met you, you were already insisting me about changing my gear because you didn't like it (or my tone), you wouldn't leave the best of impressions. 

That doesn't mean the guy isn't a weirdo. Because he clearly is. But as pointed out most musicians are in one way or another. As I said, I can't understand for the life of me how people can like HM-2s or fuzzes and pay small fortunes for something that to me sounds like a broken speaker. But it's obvious it has a massive market.

I have a customer that wants to run a two amps + 1 x bass amp setup. At once. With no FX loops. I don't know what kind of music does he play but rest assured there are people with very "peculiar" taste in gear out there 

Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much. Just start the band and see what happens. If things don't work out, then decide.


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## odibrom (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> His answer when I asked that was, "I've tried nearly every other amp out there and the Crate is the only one that gave me the distorted tone I was looking for".


... so he was evasive... he didn't list all the amps he tried nor with what cabs or guitars... because amps sound different with different guitars and cabs... and fingers messing with the knobs...

You said you found a list of quirks he was dropping... how about you list them for us to laugh at... Red flags are everywhere, one just needs to be aware of them to avoid problems, however, problems are the spices of life, otherwise it would be boring...


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## Rev2010 (May 13, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I'm gonna side with @GunpointMetal here. If the first-second time I met you, you were already insisting me about changing my gear because you didn't like it (or my tone), you wouldn't leave the best of impressions.



Just to clarify here again, I didn't "insist" or tell him to change his gear. When we got out of the car and he grabbed his amp head I asked, "You brought your Crate with you? Do you have an umbrella?" and he said, "Yeah I want to use my amp and no don't need an umbrella" yet it was raining hard. then we went in and he removed the brand new JCM900 and setup his Crate. Thought it was odd. Then I asked him if he intends to only ever play through the Crate to which he replied "Yes" and said he also has a second one. I thought that was odd as fuck. I didn't say, "GET RID OF THE CRATE AND USE THIS!!!!".

I'm concerned about the stubborn mentality of having to use this or that only and also being averse to using effect units (which are absolutely necessary for some of my tracks) or wireless and shit. He _will _use an effect unit but since my HX Effects footswitch broke he keeps going on about how "this is why I don't see the need for an effects unit" and how he got along fine for 2 decades without one. Anything can break, guitar, amp, your wrist, whatever, so I was like WTF kind of argument is that??


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## prlgmnr (May 13, 2022)

He has a second one, you can use that one.


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## budda (May 13, 2022)

Sounds like he was being reasonable for two jams and clearly no expectations set prior. 

Want to know why i got a jcm800 and didnt play a tele in sparrows? Because the guy who started the band wanted it that way, and I knew that at the getgo.


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## YoY (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.
> 
> My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.


1) The more often he brings his amp but not his umbrella, the problem takes care of itself.
2) You can also, if stubborrnees persists, ask yourself: "Does my second guitarist really need an amp?" and even: "Do I really need a second guitarist?


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## bostjan (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> Just to clarify here again, I didn't "insist" or tell him to change his gear. When we got out of the car and he grabbed his amp head I asked, "You brought your Crate with you? Do you have an umbrella?" and he said, "Yeah I want to use my amp and no don't need an umbrella" yet it was raining hard. then we went in and he removed the brand new JCM900 and setup his Crate. Thought it was odd. Then I asked him if he intends to only ever play through the Crate to which he replied "Yes" and said he also has a second one. I thought that was odd as fuck. I didn't say, "GET RID OF THE CRATE AND USE THIS!!!!".
> 
> I'm concerned about the stubborn mentality of having to use this or that only and also being averse to using effect units (which are absolutely necessary for some of my tracks) or wireless and shit. He _will _use an effect unit but since my HX Effects footswitch broke he keeps going on about how "this is why I don't see the need for an effects unit" and how he got along fine for 2 decades without one. Anything can break, guitar, amp, your wrist, whatever, so I was like WTF kind of argument is that??


Whether its stubbornness or weird miscommunication, I think it _is_ a red flag. However, here are some disconnected thoughts:

1. I know that I want to use _my_ amp. If all I had was a GX-1200H, I'd probably prefer using that over the Marshall, too, just because I would feel more comfortable tweaking my own amp and getting familiar with how it blends in with the sound of the band. This could boil down to miscommunication and difference in tastes. ... that said-
2. I've owned the GX-1200H before.  I honestly don't think it's nearly as bad as people say. If you actually take time to dial it in properly, it can sound good. I think it's just generally associated with shitty guitarists dialing in shitty tone because they were super cheap. ... that said-
3. It still seems a little weird to me if this is the guys ultimate dream amp.
4. From the other guy's perspective, though, I'd feel uncomfortable if you were hung up on my amp. I think comparing being in his shoes with guy hung up on what amp I'm using, probably before even hearing me play through it versus being in your shoes of having a guy show up to an audition with a $200 amp, I'd be way more uncomfortable in that guy's shoes. It sounds like there's a lot more to the entire picture than just this amp thing, though. But still, I'd highly recommend just letting the thought of what amp the guy is using to audition slip right out of my head. Not everyone can afford anything more than two $200 amps, especially if you guys are going to be playing loud. If it sounds good and work well enough, leave every other small detail for that guy to figure out.
5. How was the umbrella offered? If you came running up with an umbrella and he pushed it away, that would be fucking weird. If you offered a hypothetical umbrella, maybe he didn't want to impose and figured the amp would be fine.
6. The 432 Hz thing you mentioned is a red flag, yes, and I would probably be uncomfortable at the mere mention of it, yes. When you brought that up, my opinion changed from "is @Rev2010 a micromanager?" to "Ahh, okay, it seems like this guy is a bit of a space cadet, and this is probably some sort of poor communication between the two." That said, maybe this guy is just awkward or maybe it was a joke that failed to sound like a joke, who knows?
7. I also don't use effects, really. I own tons of them from ages ago. I feel like they don't add as much to my performance as they are a pain in the ass. So, not only do I think that's a valid opinion, but I concur with him on that one, and, from your last comment, for the same damned reason. I've had a pedal shit the bed on me in the middle of a set, and that moment is just super stressful. Why are pedals necessary?! My wrist is necessary, my amp is necessary, my guitar is necessary. If he has a second amp, then it sounds like he's even mitigated some of those what-ifs.
8. So this is a totally unestablished band? No one else in the band has even met in person yet?

Overall, I'm guessing this guy has some baggage/issues, but this thread doesn't really paint you in a light that leads me to believe that maybe the root cause of the friction here is that you both have some weird quirks and those ultimately aren't going to mesh well. My advice for you, then would be to cut and run with this guy and find someone more on the same page with you. Personally, I think it's not even just okay to have weird quirks, but kind of necessary to be an innovative musician. You do you. Also let him do him. If you + him = you (plural) doing you (plural), then great  . If not, then it's ultimately not going to work out...


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## STRHelvete (May 13, 2022)

MFB said:


> I like everyone in here suggesting him to recording as a DI, as if he wouldn't IMMEDIATELY question that and wonder why they aren't tracking the Crate that he's so in love with.


Because even when people know what amps they want to use, it's just logical to use a DI. That way you have the recorded performance and can do whatever you want with it. Even if you know the amp you're going to use it just makes sense. Again, he doesn't want to do it? Shitcan his ass.


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## NoodleFace (May 13, 2022)

When I joined my current band I showed up with my 6505+ and the other guitarist had some wear line 6 amp, not even sure what it is now. I immediately was biased against it in my head. We turn on and he sounds absolutely fine.. actually his amp sounds pretty good.

It made me take a step back and realize a good player is going to sound good through almost whatever they play, especially if they know how to tweak it.

Not saying I like the idea of someone using a crate gx, but asking him to change amps is probably going to brew some bad blood. IMO if it bothers it that much, you'll probably need to ask him to leave the band. You don't want resentment festering.


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## Wildebeest (May 13, 2022)

Your second guitar player just sounds dumb.


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## ShredmasterD (May 13, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.
> 
> My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.


we don't pay brands , we play music. it shouldn't matter what anyone uses as long as it sounds good and isn't made by forced labor or children. BTW back in the day many a pro used crate blue voodoo heads.


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## STRHelvete (May 13, 2022)

ShredmasterD said:


> we don't pay brands , we play music. it shouldn't matter what anyone uses as long as it sounds good and isn't made by forced labor or children. BTW back in the day many a pro used crate blue voodoo heads.


NO! THE ONLY REASON TO PLAY GUITAR IS TO SPEND LOTS OF MONEY ON BRANDS SO YOU KNOW IT SOUNDS GOOD. EVEN IF IT DOESN'T SOUND GOOD IT SOUNDS GOOD BECAUSE BRANDS!


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## MFB (May 13, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> NO! THE ONLY REASON TO PLAY GUITAR IS TO SPEND LOTS OF MONEY ON BRANDS SO YOU KNOW IT SOUNDS GOOD. EVEN IF IT DOESN'T SOUND GOOD IT SOUNDS GOOD BECAUSE BRANDS!


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## odibrom (May 13, 2022)

STRHelvete said:


> NO! THE ONLY REASON TO PLAY GUITAR IS TO SPEND LOTS OF MONEY ON BRANDS SO YOU KNOW IT SOUNDS GOOD. EVEN IF IT DOESN'T SOUND GOOD IT SOUNDS GOOD BECAUSE BRANDS!


... like sex, right?...


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## Ross82 (May 13, 2022)

Bodes said:


> Record both his amp and a DI.
> If his amp doesn't fit in the mix, tell the person recording you to discretely reamp after the fact without telling your guitarist.
> Might cost you a little extra cash, but it could be worth it...



All about this, if people really knew the trickery that goes on with their performances under recording circumstances they likely would have a conniption.


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## GunpointMetal (May 13, 2022)

Ross82 said:


> All about this, if people really knew the trickery that goes on with their performances under recording circumstances they likely would have a conniption.


Part of being a recording engineer is practicing a bunch of different ways of saying "That was pretty good, but lets do it again." and moving some stuff on screen then hitting CTRL+Z before you hit playback and watching the band go "Yeah, no that totally sounds better."


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## Thesius (May 13, 2022)

If he can sound good through whatever amp he's playing its not an issue, but the other redflags and already questioning things between only two meetings means you should probably find a different guitarist to work with.


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## Protestheriphery (May 13, 2022)

Well... I gotta give your boy props for having confidence in his setup. Other than that, Im at a loss for words. Unless perhaps the bandmate is trolling, in which case Id rate it a 4/10...


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## Mitri (May 13, 2022)

Rob scallon seemed pretty happy with the crate gl series. I improvised a black metal album on record with a gl half stack. The GL was surprisingly reaponsive and fun to play, didn't sound half bad either. Maybe your bandmate would have better luck with an example from th GL series instead of the GX series?


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## crankyrayhanky (May 13, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you've only worked together twice I think it's a little early to start dictating gear.



Actually, it's way late. I've quit bands and fired people over their crap gear that they insist on, including a lead player who was an amazing player but just "needs a few nights tweaking this line6 to get the tones right". 



Rev2010 said:


> His answer when I asked that was, "I've tried nearly every other amp out there and the Crate is the only one that gave me the distorted tone I was looking for".


Your ears are broken, get out


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## GunpointMetal (May 13, 2022)

crankyrayhanky said:


> Actually, it's way late. I've quit bands and fired people over their crap gear that they insist on, including a lead player who was an amazing player but just "needs a few nights tweaking this line6 to get the tones right".
> 
> 
> Your ears are broken, get out


Sick dude, I’m sure the pay is worth it!


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## odibrom (May 13, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> Part of being a recording engineer is practicing a bunch of different ways of saying "That was pretty good, but lets do it again." and moving some stuff on screen then hitting CTRL+Z before you hit playback and watching the band go "Yeah, no that totally sounds better."


... are people this dum? does that really work?


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## c7spheres (May 13, 2022)

odibrom said:


> ... are people this dum? does that really work?



It's psychoacoustic. It's a real phenomenon. Basically giving a blind test where the subjects don't know they're subjects.
- I do blind a/b tests to myself and it's improved my tone and listening skills. You will hear the same clip differently. One does sound better even though they're the same. Sometimes things sound different wether you're inhaling or exhaling, how long of a pause between, no pause etc.. The first clip follows silince and the second clip follows whatever the first one ended with, so it sound different too. Speakers stop/start at different positions. Your head moves in the room. You inhaled in the headphones with a stuffy head etc..
- Trying to hear through all that and focus on one thing or hear everything as a whole is a developed skill and and art, imo. I think to develop a truly blind a/b test would be pretty hard. You'd have to factor in a lot of things to get to a common starting point of conditions. In reality it don't matter. I find making several versions and waiting a few days then listening back after ears are rested is much more helpful.
- If you want your ears to work properly for you, I find the OSHA standards are pretty accurate and well serving, so that don't give you much loud Decible time per day.

sorry OP, got off topic.


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## Heretick (May 14, 2022)

My opinion? Buy more Crate GX-1200Hs. He plays through a Crate GX-1200H, you play through a Crate GX-1200H. The bassist? Crate GX-1200H. Where do you plug in the mic for a vocalist? Crate GX-1200H. Put the drummer in a soundproof cube and mic the drums up. What are those mics feeding into, you might ask?

A Crate GX-1200H.

Beat him at his own game.


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## Grindspine (May 14, 2022)

Bdtunn said:


> Some of the best tones I ever got was through a solid state crate gx-212, it had this bright switch that just lite it on fire. I also had a cheap little zoom multi effect running with it


As stated, I have my old '94 Crate GX212+ in the back corner of my home studio. The speakers were replaced with Celestion G12H-80s. I have a Dunlop Volume X mini on the effects insert because the volume knob has always had that one spot where it jumps. I can get half-okay cleans if I use my DarkGlass Hyperluminal compressor. I can get half-usable distortion if I boost with an overdrive. That all being said, I have never gotten then amp to sound great. I have owned the thing for 28 years and have never, even with pedals or external cabinets, been completely happy with the sound. It has its uses as a test bench and pedal platform, but the Flexwave distortion has something unpleasant about it.



GunpointMetal said:


> Seems like a problem that isn't a problem. Some of those 90's Crates were SUPER reliable. If it's got the sound and feel he's after, then it's the right piece of gear. I do think that when it comes to recording people should be flexible with what they use if the sounds aren't there, but at the end of the day distorted guitar gets mangled into a mix with EQ most of the time anyways so if that amp is what gets the best performance, again, that's the right piece of gear. Some people hear with their eyes and it is super annoying. I had a guitarist trying out for MY BAND 8-9 years ago that was outwardly bothered by the fact that I played a modeler into a Crate powerblock into a "no-name" 4x12 (loaded with Celestion/Eminence) and told me on a break that he "couldn't take a band seriously without name brand gear". Needless to say he didn't come back a second time. Mostly because we didn't invite him. In spite of his $2k guitar and $3k amp rig he couldn't hang.


My old GX has never failed to turn on as long as I have it plugged into whatever AC outlet or Furman unit. On that note, using a Furman Power Factor on it does seem to give it a bit more clarity. It is not a night & day difference, but does make a change.


prlgmnr said:


> He has a second one, you can use that one.


Epic win.

Oddly enough, a friend of mine has a Crate Blue Voodoo 300. That was the one with the power section from an Ampeg SVT300 back when St. Louis Music ran Crate and Ampeg. That amp is a beast and sounds like thick, rich, tube distortion. The sextet of 6550 tubes helps.


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## Crungy (May 14, 2022)

Grindspine said:


> Oddly enough, a friend of mine has a Crate Blue Voodoo 300. That was the one with the power section from an Ampeg SVT300 back when St. Louis Music ran Crate and Ampeg. That amp is a beast and sounds like thick, rich, tube distortion. The sextet of 6550 tubes helps.


Holy shit what? How have I never heard of that being a huge bass gear nerd?!


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## budda (May 14, 2022)

Crungy said:


> Holy shit what? How have I never heard of that being a huge bass gear nerd?!


You may have ignored threads with Crate in the title lol.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 14, 2022)

Page 5 and no clips?


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## crankyrayhanky (May 14, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> Sick dude, I’m sure the pay is worth it!


lol this is a voluntary position

It's not that the amp sucks and that's all one could swing financially....it's the 1,000s of dollars of tattoos that are constantly in the process but can't afford to buy a new set of strings mentality that I find awful. Also, ok your amp sucks, but don't double down and skip past a proper Marshall or Mesa tube head in a studio or gig situation because that's not your sound...newsflash- your sound sucks


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## STRHelvete (May 15, 2022)

Just stick a Mesa badge on the amp. Problem solved


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## Iron1 (May 15, 2022)

budda said:


> You may have ignored threads with Crate in the title lol.


This is the way.


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## neurosis (May 16, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> Not forcing him to change at all. And the DI suggestions for recording is exactly what I was thinking for when that time comes. But, does it not seem odd to not just use the head in the studio? I mean, would you bring your own amp head in the rain to the studio? That seems really stubborn to me. Like "No I can't use any other amp!".


I do think it is stubborn. But if he is comfortable with that and it builds his confidence you may get his best performance that way. People have different idiosyncrasies so do whatever gets the job done. The only problem I see is if the performance and tone aren't that great that it affects the band or it's just not the right fit for what you guys want the project to sound. I suppose there's a moment where you draw a line for how far you are willing to accept a person's quirks. 

I agree the DI is a good compromise for all.


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## Ross82 (May 16, 2022)

odibrom said:


> ... are people this dum? does that really work?


Absolutley.

I would always do things like push an empty fader when the singer says they want the vocals louder or the lead player wants his 30 minute, tasteless, wank-fest guitar solo 30db higher than everything else. At the same time I'd be going "oh yeah, that sounds better!" while nodding enthusiastically and the singer/lead player would agree. Even though I changed nothing, but just because they saw me move a fader they think they've "won". 

I used to call it L.A. Mixing

People listen with their eyes and their ego, especially at the less experienced level and most have no concept of how much something like EQ can make a part stand out better than raw volume alone. So they see that 'their' fader is lower than another and think they're not getting enough audio attention, even if the mix is balanced and sounds good.


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## GunpointMetal (May 16, 2022)

odibrom said:


> ... are people this dum? does that really work?


absolutely. 9/10 a mix is sounding good, but someone has hyper-focused on one element. If you give them the visual of adjusting that element it will get louder to them even though the level hasn't changed in reality. Works live for monitors quite often, too. Just keep saying "How's that?" and not adjusting anything until you get the thumbs up.


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## Iron1 (May 16, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> absolutely. 9/10 a mix is sounding good, but someone has hyper-focused on one element. If you give them the visual of adjusting that element it will get louder to them even though the level hasn't changed in reality. Works live for monitors quite often, too. Just keep saying "How's that?" and not adjusting anything until you get the thumbs up.


This sort of thing is why so many musicians hate sound engineers.


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## GunpointMetal (May 16, 2022)

Iron1 said:


> This sort of thing is why so many musicians hate sound engineers.


It's also why so many sound engineers hate musicians. It's hard to remain objective for a lot of players when it comes to their instrument. Every guitarist/drummer/bassist/vocalist that has never mixed a record or a live show wants their instrument 3dB louder than everything else because its what they listen for, even if doing so would objectively make the whole thing sound like shit.


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## budda (May 16, 2022)

Our singer was the reason we were 125dB .

But yes placebo is one hell of a drug.


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## TheBolivianSniper (May 16, 2022)

odibrom said:


> ... are people this dum? does that really work?



this is literally something I was taught as part of my degree, that and the "producer knobs" to get people in the room to fuck off while you're tracking


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## Iron1 (May 16, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> It's also why so many sound engineers hate musicians. It's hard to remain objective for a lot of players when it comes to their instrument. Every guitarist/drummer/bassist/vocalist that has never mixed a record or a live show wants their instrument 3dB louder than everything else because its what they listen for, even if doing so would objectively make the whole thing sound like shit.


You're not wrong.  I've been on both sides of that, but have ultimately believed education goes a lot further than deception.


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## wheresthefbomb (May 16, 2022)

I always try to talk to the sound tech beforehand, offer to buy them a drink, tell them what I'm about, try to get an idea of how they want to run things and how we can work together etc. There's a long history of unfortunate assumptions on both sides here, I prefer to just get ahead of that right out the gate.

Telling the sound tech that I like to play loud, but also want everything to sound good, and want to talk about how we can work together to make that happen, yields have a lot better results than just letting them run on "autopilot" and then being upset with the results. This is especially important when playing a style that they don't work with often. They don't know what they don't know, and neither do you, so if everybody talks about it everybody has a better time.

I have both perpetrated personally and helped organize many shows with obscene amounts of amplification. Those memes about the sound tech being upset about a 4x12 in a dive bar don't even scratch the surface. Getting it sound good has never caused an issue so long as we all communicate clearly, have reasonable expectations, and work together.


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## RevDrucifer (May 16, 2022)

I only read the first page of this so my apologies if it’s been said already, but maybe the dude is hard up for cash and him sticking with his gear is a way to not get into that discussion.

I know I went a good decade where I was using a Peavey XXL head and kept saying “Man, this thing just works for everything I need it for” when in reality, I was broke with no way of getting a different amp and just didn’t want to admit I was broke.


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## GunpointMetal (May 16, 2022)

Iron1 said:


> You're not wrong.  I've been on both sides of that, but have ultimately believed education goes a lot further than deception.


True, and if there's time and money for that, that's usually the first option. You also get to read people and you'll know if it's worth "educating" the bassist on why he's not the loudest thing in the mix or just letting him think he is after you spend a day tracking.


wheresthefbomb said:


> I always try to talk to the sound tech beforehand, offer to buy them a drink, tell them what I'm about, try to get an idea of how they want to run things and how we can work together etc. There's a long history of unfortunate assumptions on both sides here, I prefer to just get ahead of that right out the gate.
> 
> Telling the sound tech that I like to play loud, but also want everything to sound good, and want to talk about how we can work together to make that happen, yields have a lot better results than just letting them run on "autopilot" and then being upset with the results. This is especially important when playing a style that they don't work with often. They don't know what they don't know, and neither do you, so if everybody talks about it everybody has a better time.
> 
> I have both perpetrated personally and helped organize many shows with obscene amounts of amplification. Those memes about the sound tech being upset about a 4x12 in a dive bar don't even scratch the surface. Getting it sound good has never caused an issue so long as we all communicate clearly, have reasonable expectations, and work together.


100% IME (my bassist is career professional FOH and monitor engineer for several of the larger venues in town) studio and live engineers love nothing more than an accurate day sheet with an input list for each band and some description of the setup a day or two ahead of a show. The only time I've really experience any tension is either when the sound guy thinks his job is to dictate the sound of the band instead of the sound of the room, or the show is in an area that has a hard dB limit and some random doom dad is mad he can't run all four of his 4x12s at top volume.


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## Iron1 (May 16, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I always try to talk to the sound tech beforehand, offer to buy them a drink, tell them what I'm about, try to get an idea of how they want to run things and how we can work together etc. There's a long history of unfortunate assumptions on both sides here, I prefer to just get ahead of that right out the gate.
> 
> Telling the sound tech that I like to play loud, but also want everything to sound good, and want to talk about how we can work together to make that happen, yields have a lot better results than just letting them run on "autopilot" and then being upset with the results. This is especially important when playing a style that they don't work with often. They don't know what they don't know, and neither do you, so if everybody talks about it everybody has a better time.
> 
> I have both perpetrated personally and helped organize many shows with obscene amounts of amplification. Those memes about the sound tech being upset about a 4x12 in a dive bar don't even scratch the surface. Getting it sound good has never caused an issue so long as we all communicate clearly, have reasonable expectations, and work together.


Smart man.

I used to gig with a JCM900 atop two Carvin 412s and it just wouldn't sound good unless it was turned past 8. The best soundman in our area at the time always made it sound great for the crowd. One of the other's we had to work with from time to time would always storm up on stage with an attitude and turn the amp down to 2 and huff off back to the soundboard. Then, I'd just turn it right back up again. Same clubs, same gear, different sound guys, different results.

The real difference: the great sound guy would partner with you to get the best sound - and we ALWAYS got compliments on how awesome it sounded when he was behind the board. The other guy treated us like we were kids who just took a steaming dump in his wheaties - and fans would say stuff like "that wasn't your best gig" or "that didn't sound as good as the last show..."


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## GunpointMetal (May 16, 2022)

TheBolivianSniper said:


> this is literally something I was taught as part of my degree, that and the "producer knobs" to get people in the room to fuck off while you're tracking


I've seen someone go as far as sending a track to an empty channel, disabling the the channel output so it doesn't come out of the monitors but still shows a signal coming into any plugins, and letting a guitarist "do his own EQ". He was so happy with how it sounded even though nobody ever actually heard his EQ, but he could SEE it on the screen.


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## Manurack (May 16, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.
> 
> My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.


Plot twist: Rev can stay late in the studio, burn midnight oil redoing all of the other guitar player's takes with the Marshall JCM 900 instead lol 

If it sounds bad, get the engineer to EQ it afterwards to make it sound better?


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## Ross82 (May 16, 2022)

GunpointMetal said:


> It's also why so many sound engineers hate musicians. It's hard to remain objective for a lot of players when it comes to their instrument. Every guitarist/drummer/bassist/vocalist that has never mixed a record or a live show wants their instrument 3dB louder than everything else because its what they listen for, even if doing so would objectively make the whole thing sound like shit.


Exactly.

Unless musicians have experience on both sides of the desk, having them in the room while you mix is almost always going to end badly. I wouldn't even let a band be in the studio when doing prelim mixes once I figured out this phenomenon. In my early years (before I knew better) everyone would be in the control room at the start of mix and sometimes, before the bus groups were even organized, band members would be putting their requests in for more fader time. Didn't take long for me to nix that BS.

As for live sound, I'd give people what they want in their monitors up to a point (as long as bleed-out wasn't an issue) because it's their preference to help the performance. One big gripe though, is people that spend 10 mins in SC tuning their monitors only to fuck off on the other side of stage during 90% of the set and then start waving frantically because they're using someone else's monitor setup and now want their instrument louder than the FOH. IEM/monitor engineers pretty much negate this but back in the day it would be a PITA if you were doing both. Hardly ever would they have input in FOH, for so many reasons.


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## GunpointMetal (May 16, 2022)

Ross82 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Unless musicians have experience on both sides of the desk, having them in the room while you mix is almost always going to end badly. I wouldn't even let a band be in the studio when doing prelim mixes once I figured out this phenomenon. In my early years (before I knew better) everyone would be in the control room at the start of mix and sometimes, before the bus groups were even organized, band members would be putting their requests in for more fader time. Didn't take long for me to nix that BS.


This is my only real objection to us doing our own DYI productions. Everyone thinks that because we're not paying an engineer that I'm going to do infinite revisions or that every little whim will be honored. Mixing by committee is a form of self-harm.


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## thraxil (May 16, 2022)

I don't know, those 1200H's wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems like if you dial them right, they can sound decent enough:



At the same time, JCM 900s are great but not everyone's cup of tea.

Going to a studio to jam with someone new, I can definitely understand wanting to just use the head that I'm familiar with even if the studio has something "better" available. I'm kind of fond of certain "bad" gear and tones in the right context too. One of my favourite bass tones I've ever gotten was with a Behringer V-amp pro running into a power amp and then into an old Peavey 1x15 combo amp's speaker (the amp had died so I just soldered a jack straight to the speaker). It had an octave effect that I could dial in just a tiny bit of and it tracked badly. The result was just the perfect amount of skronk that just made it sound huge and mean. Better tracking octaves didn't sound bad in the right way and running into a proper speaker cabinet, it never had quite the same effect. It wasn't the best bass tone for every situation, but everyone who heard it thought it sounded great and I've been unable to recreate it with gear that cost ten times as much.

Going to a studio to *record*, I'd probably still want to bring the gear that I know gets me the tone that I'm comfortable with, but in that situation I'd also be open to trying other options that the studio has available because I understand that tone sitting in a mix is a different beast than a single guitar by itself and what sounds good or bad will be affected by the mics, room, other band members' gear, etc. I'd also 100% do a DI track even if I was completely happy with my gear and tone because, again, recording introduces new variables. Having the flexibility to re-amp saves time and money if, eg, the engineer realizes later that they didn't position the mics right on the original take. If the guitarist isn't able to understand that or is still unwilling to even let you take a DI, that's a red flag.


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## Ross82 (May 16, 2022)

Lets not forget the whole Josh Homme thing that lead to a shit ton of basically worthless amps exploding in price/demand. You can do a lot of things with a lot of things.


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## Rev2010 (May 16, 2022)

thraxil said:


> At the same time, JCM 900s are great but not everyone's cup of tea



I actually don't like the JCM 900 either, I much prefer the JCM 800 over it although as mentioned I'm a Rectifier guy and that's what I use. I only mention the JCM 900 cause I found it strange to disconnect a $3000 amp head and connect a shitty Crate amp (sold for $299 new and used about $99) instead that you brought to the rehearsal studio. And for the record, yes I did own a Crate 1200H full stack at one point in time. I am very familiar with it's sound and it's just too buzzy for my tastes.


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## c7spheres (May 16, 2022)

thraxil said:


> I don't know, those 1200H's wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems like if you dial them right, they can sound decent enough:




That sounds good and totally usable. It's definitely in the matter of taste realm.



Rev2010 said:


> I actually don't like the JCM 900 either, I much prefer the JCM 800 over it although as mentioned I'm a Rectifier guy and that's what I use. I only mention the JCM 900 cause I found it strange to disconnect a $3000 amp head and connect a shitty Crate amp (sold for $299 new and used about $99) instead that you brought to the rehearsal studio. And for the record, yes I did own a Crate 1200H full stack at one point in time. I am very familiar with it's sound and it's just too buzzy for my tastes.



If you really are set on and don't want that tone on the recording you gotta let him know and come to a resolution before you guys do all that work. It's eaiser to go through all that then record probably. unless it's a quicky.


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## Ross82 (May 16, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> I actually don't like the JCM 900 either, I much prefer the JCM 800 over it although as mentioned I'm a Rectifier guy and that's what I use. I only mention the JCM 900 cause I found it strange to disconnect a $3000 amp head and connect a shitty Crate amp (sold for $299 new and used about $99) instead that you brought to the rehearsal studio. And for the record, yes I did own a Crate 1200H full stack at one point in time. I am very familiar with it's sound and it's just too buzzy for my tastes.



A curious point there though is that it depends on your geographical location on whether a Marshall is seen in the same light. In NA they're much more expensive than they are in the UK where they're common as mud, much lower price and not viewed as prestigiously. I used to have all sorts of Marshalls at hand and also 5150's, MESA's, a boutique now and then (Framus Cobra was a BEAST and I preferred it over Mesa for tone IMO) and the "overseas" units would nearly always be the preference, which I put down to rarity desire. In truth I could have recorded a perfectly good tone with any of them but its interesting to see peoples bias towards things.

I remember a lad that was obsessed with Dual Recto's and finally bought one with some inheritance. He was adamant that's what he wanted to use but this tone was just a buzzy 'flarp' to my ears (I'm not a fan of straight Recto tone and only find them decent with pre-boosting and a bit of fuckery), where a 5150 sounded way better for the material style to me. I think it ended up being a blend of a few amps in the end anyway which kinds of leads us back to the OP. Let him lay a Crate track and IF it sounds so terrible then, as would likely be done anyway, lay additional tracks with other amps and blend them in.

As other have said, tone in a mix can sound totally different than the isolated. I recall Max Cavalera said that on the Nailbomb album they took box cutters to the cab speaker cones to get a specific raspy tone. Its the wonder of sound production.


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## Rawkmann (May 16, 2022)

thraxil said:


> I don't know, those 1200H's wouldn't be my first choice, but it seems like if you dial them right, they can sound decent enough:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think thats a good example of how most of us didnt fully know how to dial in gear back then and wanted to blame the gear rather than our lack of skill/knowedge. Sounds absolutely fine and usable to me, so i say let the man use his Crate and dont sweat it. Most of that older gear from back in the day we thought was cheap and ‘unusable’ is actually fine when one actually knows what they are doing with it.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (May 17, 2022)

First I start with “Sweet Home Alabama”, followed by “Enter Sandman”, then top it off with “Sweet Child o’ Mine”.


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## LostTheTone (May 17, 2022)

Rawkmann said:


> I think thats a good example of how most of us didnt fully know how to dial in gear back then and wanted to blame the gear rather than our lack of skill/knowedge. Sounds absolutely fine and usable to me, so i say let the man use his Crate and dont sweat it. Most of that older gear from back in the day we thought was cheap and ‘unusable’ is actually fine when one actually knows what they are doing with it.



I mean, lets be real, even today plenty of people make good, expensive equipment sound dreadful. Turns out that there's genuinely few things that are truly ghastly. 

It also turns out that all the other stuff that when we were young, broke and stupid we didn't think really mattered actually really really matters. The reason your 1x12 combo sounds crappy is because they put a cheap, crappy speaker in it not because combo amps are somehow destined to sound dreadful. The reason all your pedals sound weird is because they're in front of the amp, instead of in the loop where they belong. 

We have come a long way in terms of the received wisdom stuff - Like, you need a noise gate, mmkay? Not just as a nice thing, you need one. Distortion pedals are supposed to work with your amp, not just magically give you proper tone. 

But we still haven't arrived at a time when most people know how to dial their gear in nicely.


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## Grindspine (May 18, 2022)

Crungy said:


> Holy shit what? How have I never heard of that being a huge bass gear nerd?!


The BV300 was a guitar amp. Even though it was made with Ampeg parts, the preamp voicing was aggressive guitar.


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## wheresthefbomb (May 18, 2022)

LostTheTone said:


> I mean, lets be real, even today plenty of people make good, expensive equipment sound dreadful. Turns out that there's genuinely few things that are truly ghastly.
> 
> It also turns out that all the other stuff that when we were young, broke and stupid we didn't think really mattered actually really really matters. The reason your 1x12 combo sounds crappy is because they put a cheap, crappy speaker in it not because combo amps are somehow destined to sound dreadful. The reason all your pedals sound weird is because they're in front of the amp, instead of in the loop where they belong.
> 
> ...



I've come a long way from letting random beardos on the Internet convince me I need whatever fuzz pedal and 10,000 watt vintage amp to play d00m, to copping Electric Wizard tones straight into a dimed Rage 158.




Edit: In light of this thread, I am having a good laugh imagining myself showing up to an audition with this, or better yet, the studio.


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## LostTheTone (May 18, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I've come a long way from letting random beardos on the Internet convince me I need whatever fuzz pedal and 10,000 watt vintage amp to play d00m, to copping Electric Wizard tones straight into a dimed Rage 158.
> 
> Edit: In light of this thread, I am having a good laugh imagining myself showing up to an audition with this, or better yet, the studio.



Just do it man 

I legitimately have shown up to audition (and will do again) as a vocalist with a 6u, full depth rack case and handing out DI boxes on a democratic basis. And, honestly, I kinda want a bigger one because I'm already velcroing shit to the back of my rack mixer.

Bring the RAAAAGE.


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## nickgray (May 18, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> straight into a dimed Rage 158



Well, I don't know what I was expecting, but damn, it's thick af.


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## guitar_player4_2_0 (May 19, 2022)

Hey, there’s a gx1200h on reverb for $50 right now. Just in case a third backup is needed.









Crate GX-1200H 2-Channel 100-Watt Solid State Guitar Amp Head | Reverb


Crate GXT-100. I got this used a couple years ago and it hasn’t got much use. It comes with a double tube preamp. It comes with a channel switching pedal.I WILL NOT SHIP THIS PRODUCT. LOCAL PICKUP ONLY.




reverb.com





Actually looking again this might be listed as the wrong model. I’ve gotta be honest, I’m not really up on my Crates lol.


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## soldierkahn (May 20, 2022)

tell your other guitarist to serve the song, not his ego


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## DiezelMonster (May 20, 2022)

Sounds like someone needs to back off and leave this dude alone.

CRATES RULE!


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## Spaced Out Ace (May 20, 2022)

bostjan said:


> 6. The 432 Hz thing you mentioned is a red flag, yes, and I would probably be uncomfortable at the mere mention of it, yes. When you brought that up, my opinion changed from "is @Rev2010 a micromanager?" to "Ahh, okay, it seems like this guy is a bit of a space cadet, and this is probably some sort of poor communication between the two." That said, maybe this guy is just awkward or maybe it was a joke that failed to sound like a joke, who knows?


I'm missing how this is an issue? Can anyone explain it?


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## wheresthefbomb (May 20, 2022)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> I'm missing how this is an issue? Can anyone explain it?



it's easier if you look it up but the basic gist is nazis did 440hz (in much the same way that Bush did 9/11) to cut us off from secret vibrational frequencies of the universe.

I'm sure you can imagine what other interesting things someone who believes that might also believe. Honestly, even if dude were a great guitar player, this would be a huge red flag to me from a personality perspective.


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## c7spheres (May 20, 2022)

My new vanity plate is gonna be " Ido432 " or " 4324U " : ) 432 is a great calibration.


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## Hollowway (May 21, 2022)

How about instead of 449 or 432, we do 420, amirite?


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## Grindspine (May 21, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> it's easier if you look it up but the basic gist is nazis did 440hz (in much the same way that Bush did 9/11) to cut us off from secret vibrational frequencies of the universe.
> 
> I'm sure you can imagine what other interesting things someone who believes that might also believe. Honestly, even if dude were a great guitar player, this would be a huge red flag to me from a personality perspective.


WTF? I have heard about 432 being sympathetic with the universe or some hippie new age b.s, which is of course, arbitrary. 

But nazis using that frequency to cut us off from the universe. That is a new one to me.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (May 21, 2022)

I’m going to play my Crate today, I just got a Empress para EQ that I haven’t yet tried in the FX loop. Spoiler alert it’s going to kick ass!


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## CanserDYI (May 21, 2022)

soldierkahn said:


> tell your other guitarist to serve the song, not his ego


Arguably couldn't we tell OP the same? 

Not taking sides, just found that to be a funny duality.


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## LostTheTone (May 21, 2022)

CanserDYI said:


> Arguably couldn't we tell OP the same?
> 
> Not taking sides, just found that to be a funny duality.



Sure, when the Crate guy comes and makes his own thread


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## wheresthefbomb (May 21, 2022)

Hollowway said:


> How about instead of 449 or 432, we do 420, amirite?



I have known at least one doom band that actually did this


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## LostTheTone (May 21, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> I have known at least one doom band that actually did this



Like, they each did a slightly different tuning, so there was never any possibility they were ever playing in key?

I had a bass player like that...


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## wheresthefbomb (May 21, 2022)

LostTheTone said:


> Like, they each did a slightly different tuning, so there was never any possibility they were ever playing in key?
> 
> I had a bass player like that...



no they tuned to 420hz because d00m


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## LostTheTone (May 21, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> no they tuned to 420hz because d00m



Oh lol, sorry, I misread, ignore me


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## Grindspine (May 21, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> no they tuned to 420hz because d00m


 Did someone say "DooM"?



Oh, wait, you said dOOm... my bad.


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## phfobric (May 21, 2022)

Rev2010 said:


> his Crate GX-1200H amp head. He's so firmly set that it's the only amp he likes and that it's the sound he always wanted. We went to the studio for the first time last weekend and he even brought his Crate to the studio (in the rain without an umbrella) and set aside a brand new JCM900 to use the Crate. Now, I get having a favorite amp no doubt, and I'm guilty for always wanting to play a Mesa Rectifier, BUT I am not dead set that it HAS to be a Mesa. If I were to go to a studio that didn't have one I'd play the next best thing they have, don't care if it's a JCM800 or Randall, or Orange, whatever... I can make it work for the session.
> 
> My concern is Crate is not only a defunct brand but it was always known as an entry level bedroom low end brand. They also are known to not be very reliable. I'm not exactly trying to tell people what they can and can't play, I'm more concerned over the fact that i asked if he intends to play them forever and he said yes. That and he couldn't just make due with the amp in the studio. When people are so firmly set on things like that I have to admit it gives me cause for concern. I also asked about the possibility of a wireless in the future and he was adamantly against that as well. Last thing to add, he has an aversion to using a modern effects unit. Apparently the digital effects in the Crate are enough for him.


The studio is what separates the men from the boys. I think you have to have the WILLINGNESS to LISTEN, because once it's cut, fixing it in the mix is a tired excuse. Bend or Break in this business. You might have to actually REACH for the stars, for THE sound. SACRIFICE. F'ingA it hurts. What doesn't

Orange 120H, a Laney 2x12, and an Orange 2x12 both open-back, (35RT, Rivera '90 Evil Twin, others). In my hand is a DeArmond Sevenstar, with remod Thunderbird-like stuff, Crunch Lab, Liquifire, Sperzels, Hag Trem.


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