# Lower output pickups for extreme metal



## thrashcomics

ive read a number of times that lower output pickups like the dimarzio paf pro, sd 59 and bkp black dog for example are awesome for high gain work because the lower output provides more clarity. is this accurate?


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## SirMyghin

Typically lower output has less string pull, and less windings. The less windings tends to make the pickup less dark, so clearer and more balanced. You also gain a bit in terms of dynamic control. Let your amp do the work for gain, pickups really don't need to. Usually lower output pickups sound less 'focussed' also, which helps.


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## Hollowway

Yeah, that's what I've heard as well, yet it's hard to achieve the same sound as a high output pickup just by tweaking the amp. They just don't sound the same. But it's kind of an apples to oranges comparison for me because my high and low output pups are in different guitars.


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## Rook

Yes, absolutely. Pretty much for the reasons SirMyghin outlined.

I don't know about the BKP, but out of the PAF Pro and 59, the PAF is more transparent and has a nice touch to it, it responds very nicely to picking and I think sounds great in trem guitars. The 59 is thicker, chimier, and smoother, great for Hardtail Mahogany LP type guitars.

For your situation I'd definitely go PAF Pro.


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## thrashcomics

well im doing research for a guitar i want to put together. so far im thinking bolt on maple neck on a walnut body with a hardtail. i like to play stuff ranging from sabbath to metallica to at the gates to scale the summit, so i need a full range of clean and high gain sounds.


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## Hollowway

So if this is the case how come everyone talks about how great the high output BKPs sound vs the lower output BKPs? It's not like the average Miracle Man or Warpig user can't get more gain out of their amp. Users of those pickups tend to use high gain amps.


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## thrashcomics

Hollowway said:


> So if this is the case how come everyone talks about how great the high output BKPs sound vs the lower output BKPs? It's not like the average Miracle Man or Warpig user can't get more gain out of their amp. Users of those pickups tend to use high gain amps.



im wondering this same thing abit. my theory is that its easier to get that high gain sound with a warpig than with say a mule but in the end the mule will give you a richer more complex tone. just my theory as all my experience has been with high output sd pickups, invaders and distortions.


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## SirMyghin

Hollowway said:


> So if this is the case how come everyone talks about how great the high output BKPs sound vs the lower output BKPs? It's not like the average Miracle Man or Warpig user can't get more gain out of their amp. Users of those pickups tend to use high gain amps.




Semi guilty of this myself, I have a set of Nailbombs coming in my next one (at Tim's recomendation), and a set of Rebel Yells (Midling output). I tend to use what people recommend me, the one thing I will say about the BKP is that even the RY's are highly dynamic and touch sensitive. That is part of the magic I guess, hope the Nailbombs are similar in that sense. Otherwise they get the swap.


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## Inazone

I have one guitar with a PAF Pro currently, and had another for a while. The lower output makes it more transparent, so it's best in a guitar made of wood with distinct tonal attributes - I prefer mahogany in this case. I also find that the PAF Pro puts a bit more emphasis on the subtle dynamics of my playing, so I like it for recording solos.


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## onefingersweep

Lower output does most of the time if not always provide a clearer sound, if the pickup work well for extreme metal or not depends on the voicing and what kind of sound you want. But yes, as a general rule, lower output = better clarity.


If you want to use more of the gain from the amp and if you want to use a pedal maybe, you should go low output. If you want to let the amp do the job and have a very clear sound from the guitar. High output pickup with low gain setting doesn't sound the same as a low output pickup with high gain setting, it depends on what you like. Most metal players think that lower output doesn't have "balls" enough for extreme metal, they generally have a little "nicer" sound, not as stiff as high output pickups are, so it depends on what you like.


So I guess that answers the next question also, why some people like higher output more, it's simply a matter of taste, some people doesn't like high output pickups at all. Some people absolutely hate them actually, like Yngwie fucking Malmsteen


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## Rook

The reason some people go for hotter pickups is because they tend to have more of a spike somewhere in the EQ.

It's all about where you're getting your gain from and how you shape it.

Low output, balanced pickups (like a PAF Pro) won't influence the way your preamp operates to much, it'll just delivery a clean, clear and balanced signal so that you can then EQ into your sound whichever aspects of your guitar's tone you want. Most modern amps have their EQ after the gain stage, so they won't really change how much the amp sags, or how tight or crunchy it feels until you're really turning the amp up.

By using hot pickups you're changing the EQ _before_ the gain stage, and this has some very key effects on the feel of the sound.

If you imagine you have a sine wave, and it's oscillating about a horizontal line. Then add two more horizontal lines above and below the sine wave. That sine wave we'll say is your guitar signal. The lines above and below it illustrate how much headroom your gain stage has. Every time the guitar signal (sine wave) is loud enough to cross those lines, it clips, and this is overdrive. What your gain know does is turn up the volume of your signal into the gain stage (or sometimes reduce the headroom of the tubes, not worth going into) so that it gets closer to the lines and eventually goes over them.

If you imagine how long your sine waves goes over those lines for and how often it does it, these are the things that affect the 'feel' of the amp'. Low frequencies, with a very long frequency will cross the line less frequently but for much longer - this is what people know as sag in small amounts, and flubbiness in more extreme cases - high frequencies will clip for a very small amount of time and very frequently, which makes it feel very tight and responsive.

What people go for in hot pickups isn't necessarily the output, though this isn't always a bad thing, but actually what people are attracted to (without realising) is the 'spike' in the pickup's EQ. A big spike in the pickup's EQ means that you can get your amp to clip the mids and/or highs, and not the lows, meaning your gain will feel tight, crunchy and responsive before you even get to EQing it. Tubescreamers do the exact same thing, as do single coils (which is why when I use a single coil and a tubescreamer, i get the most ridiculously tight high gain sound I've ever heard, single coils obviously hum though and chime in a very vintagey, old school way).

Low output pickups will not allow you to keep this tightness necessarily unless your amp is prone to it. What it will do however is let you use other pedals to get the tightness, and means it'll boost all those nice rich harmonics that you lose on very hot ceramic pickups.



Enjoy my mega post, before the terminology nazis show up again I just want to say the point is that the reader gets the idea.


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## trushack

I've found that less output and magnetic pull on a string tends to make the guitar respond better overall. Once you slather on a ton of gain that benefit sort of goes away, but for cleans and mildly driven sounds the guitar sounds and feels a little more livlier. 

Pickups with lower output also tend to force players to turn up their amps. This is a good thing if you want a little more richness and complexity: all those background frequencies pop a little more.


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## Rook

trushack said:


> Pickups with lower output also tend to force players to turn up their amps. This is a good thing if you want a little more richness and complexity: all those background frequencies pop a little more.



Depends on your preamp, in the case of 'extreme metal' I find it unlikely that the user would have to turn the amp up when the preamp's going to be adding all that compression anyway.


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## SirMyghin

Fun111 said:


> Low output pickups will not allow you to keep this tightness necessarily unless your amp is prone to it. What it will do however is let you use other pedals to get the tightness, and means it'll boost all those nice rich harmonics that you lose on very hot ceramic pickups.



Shit, that clicked for me. I have a beast of a time getting artificial harmonics out my G&L ASAT special anywhere past 12. They however, have very strong ceramic magnets (but are underwound, low resistance) but pretty high output especially for single coils. Can't miss the node you want by a millimeter or you lose even at stupid gain amounts. My A5 buckers though (Rebel Yells) scream harmonics with ease.


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## thrashcomics

im pretty much decided on bkp black dog, mule or vhII for my next guitar.


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## Hollowway

Fun111 said:


> The reason some people go for hotter pickups is because they tend to have more of a spike somewhere in the EQ.
> Low output pickups will not allow you to keep this tightness necessarily unless your amp is prone to it. What it will do however is let you use other pedals to get the tightness, and means it'll boost all those nice rich harmonics that you lose on very hot ceramic pickups.



Awesome post! Thanks for all the info. So why do so many people buy ceramic Miracle Mans? I thought the whole idea there was to get crazy pinch harmonics like Z.W. You'd think Tim would be pushing lower output or Alnico pups.


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## 74n4LL0

The thighter pup of all the ones I have is the DiMarzio Eric Johnson Custom...
It's amazing with palm mutes, artificial armonics and distorted chords as it does have an amazing string clarity. I keep it close to the strings so it twangs a lot. And I love distorted twang.
Of course the amp (and probably a pedal) will have to add the dirt.


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## Curt

Dimarzio Air Classic set(somewhat bright, fat low end, somewhat hollow mids yet still present enough to be punchy, round airy high end.)

Seymour Duncan Pearly Gates/59(PG: Fairly bright, somewhat tight low end, punchy/growly mids, "clucky" high end. 59: a tad bit smoother than the PG looser low end fat round mids and smooth high end[hence why it's a killer neck pickup)

BKP Mule set: Fat yet bright, low end is a tinge tighter than the dimarzio air classic bridge, mids are gritty/growly, singing high end.

Abraxas: Fat and somewhat darker than the other choices i've listed, this pick-up reminds me of a somewhat more defined PRS Dragon pickup... never tried the neck position...

Dimarzio Bluesbucker Neck: This is what was paired with the abraxas, and it is one of my favorite neck pickups for progressive style leads thanks to it's vocal like quality and the warm midrange and biting high end.

Hope this helps, I don't play "extreme metal" really, my bands style is very similar to that of Killswitch Engage, and I wouldn't call them "extreme" by any means.


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## onefingersweep

74n4LL0 said:


> The thighter pup of all the ones I have is the DiMarzio Eric Johnson Custom...
> It's amazing with palm mutes, artificial armonics and distorted chords as it does have an amazing string clarity. I keep it close to the strings so it twangs a lot. And I love distorted twang.
> Of course the amp (and probably a pedal) will have to add the dirt.



Yes they are extremely tight and clear and thats because they are more voiced like a singlecoil rather than a traditional humbucker.

They work for extreme metal, I used to have one in the bridge and turned up the gain and bass and it sounded huge but very tight and articulate. Extremely "djenty" pickup.


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## Infinite Recursion

The music I play uses a lot of complex chords so clarity is paramount. The sound I'm looking for I would describe as something like the BKP Warpig (lots of bass and mids, great death metal riffing sound, that awesome grind) but with an output that isn't so ridiculously high. Anyone have any recommendations?


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## rippedflesh89

Infinite Recursion said:


> The music I play uses a lot of complex chords so clarity is paramount. The sound I'm looking for I would describe as something like the BKP Warpig (lots of bass and mids, great death metal riffing sound, that awesome grind) but with an output that isn't so ridiculously high. Anyone have any recommendations?


 
BKP miracle man 7... it has super tight lo-mids and works perfect for metal and stays tight under any amount of gain


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## Hollowway

rippedflesh89 said:


> BKP miracle man 7... it has super tight lo-mids and works perfect for metal and stays tight under any amount of gain


Yeah but that's high output, right? 
I've got a Rico Jr on order from Nick (Zim) that I'll eventually have to choose pups for, so I'm watching this thread closely. I've got enough high output pickups in my 8s, so for this one I want something lower.


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## projectjetfire

I havent seen it mentioned anywhere here but when I ordered my pick ups from Bulldog, they advised that to get some good clarity from my pick ups, I should use Alinco 5 magnets for my RGA. Now, previous to this, I had a set of Ceramic Warpigs in there and they just sounded way too mushy and meh and Hayden @ Bulldog advised me on why. Therefore, I went with his suggestions and wow, the are really clear and you can hear every note now. However, he did say that if you were the kind of player who doesnt mute too good, or isnt as accurate as some players, then Alinco 5 would be something you'd struggle with. 

IMHO, I think output ratings are useful as a guide but theres alot of be said for the individual parts that make up the pick up.


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## onefingersweep

Infinite Recursion said:


> The music I play uses a lot of complex chords so clarity is paramount. The sound I'm looking for I would describe as something like the BKP Warpig (lots of bass and mids, great death metal riffing sound, that awesome grind) but with an output that isn't so ridiculously high. Anyone have any recommendations?



You will never achieve that amount of low end/low mid with a lower output pickup.

Only pickup I can think of that has a lot of bass and are very clear is the Dimarzio Steve's Special, it's scooped so it's very clear, the output is 390 mv so it might look like it's really high output if you compare it to other dimarzio's that are high output but it really doesn't feel or sound as strong as those because of the scooped character, it stays much cleaner than the others. It won't have as tight bass as a good bareknuckle but definitely tight enough for standard tuning and drop D. What tuning are you in? Maybe if you tune very low you don't need so much low end? What string gauge do you have? Thicker strings give you higher output.


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## Rook

In keeping with my previous post, I don't think it's low end from the pickup that you want. If you want the lows to be powerful and clear, then you want _less_ bass, because it won't get all distorted and compressed out by the preamp.

Also, you say you have some hot 8 string pickups, but if they're EMG or Blackouts they probably aren't anything like as hot as a hot passive pickup. EMG's aren't as hot as everyone thinks, far from, and as they increase in range (6, 7 or 8 strings) they tend also to get quieter to keep the very thick, very low tuned strings sounding clear and not overly distorted and farty.

So, I think what you're after is something moderately powerful, the '390mV' or whatever quoted on DiMarzio's site is PEAK so that is how loud the loudest frequency is, the Steve's Special isn't a very hot pickup and all that power is coming from a very small set of very high frequencies. It was designed for mid hungry Marshall/Mesa amps back in the day. You probably also want something middy, but not too bright, and something with low end, but not so loud that it gets mushy - keeping it quiet keeps it clear and helps it get through the gain stage without turning to mush so that your amp's EQ and your power stage have something to amplify.


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## Curt

Fun111 said:


> In keeping with my previous post, I don't think it's low end from the pickup that you want. If you want the lows to be powerful and clear, then you want _less_ bass, because it won't get all distorted and compressed out by the preamp.
> 
> Also, you say you have some hot 8 string pickups, but if they're EMG or Blackouts they probably aren't anything like as hot as a hot passive pickup. EMG's aren't as hot as everyone thinks, far from, and as they increase in range (6, 7 or 8 strings) they tend also to get quieter to keep the very thick, very low tuned strings sounding clear and not overly distorted and farty.
> 
> So, I think what you're after is something moderately powerful, the '390mV' or whatever quoted on DiMarzio's site is PEAK so that is how loud the loudest frequency is, the Steve's Special isn't a very hot pickup and all that power is coming from a very small set of very high frequencies. It was designed for mid hungry Marshall/Mesa amps back in the day. You probably also want something middy, but not too bright, and something with low end, but not so loud that it gets mushy - keeping it quiet keeps it clear and helps it get through the gain stage without turning to mush so that your amp's EQ and your power stage have something to amplify.



a gigantic + 1 to this.


EMG's are actually not all that hot they're actually REALLY low output, it's the preamp that gives off that "hot" character that they seem to put off.

"if you want the lows to be powerful and clear, then you want less bass"
That's one reason that for 7's i've actually been looking at something like the BKP Emeralds because they put out a low amount of low end compared to the other frequencies. and they seem to be relatively clear, they are a bit overwound as well so it's still a somewhat hot pickup but it's more clear, bright, and vintage voiced.


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## edsped

I realize EMGs are underwound, but I mean they're still high output because of the active electronics, right? Is there really any reason to make a distinction if they're behaving more or less like high output pickups?


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## Rook

Not quite.

Yes the coils themselves are very underwound, but even after the preamp stage they're still not incredibly hot. Anything on DiMarzio's site listed as 'high output' is hotter than an EMG, as are things like the Duncan Custom, Duncan Distortion, and even the JB.


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## thrashcomics

Curt said:


> a gigantic + 1 to this.
> 
> 
> EMG's are actually not all that hot they're actually REALLY low output, it's the preamp that gives off that "hot" character that they seem to put off.
> 
> "if you want the lows to be powerful and clear, then you want less bass"
> That's one reason that for 7's i've actually been looking at something like the BKP Emeralds because they put out a low amount of low end compared to the other frequencies. and they seem to be relatively clear, they are a bit overwound as well so it's still a somewhat hot pickup but it's more clear, bright, and vintage voiced.




plus emeald is one fucking amazing song. i would say a part of why i want cold sweats is because of how awesome the song is. damn you tim and your clever naming.


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## SirMyghin

thrashcomics said:


> plus emeald is one fucking amazing song. i would say a part of why i want cold sweats is because of how awesome the song is. damn you tim and your clever naming.



I didn't really want rebel yells because of the name, then they were in my guitar and  world, these own.


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## JJ Rodriguez

The best gain control you have is your picking hand. Pick like a motherfucker on low output pickups to get the chunk you need. This is assuming you have a dynamic enough amp and don't crank the gain to eleventy billion


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## Curt

SirMyghin said:


> I didn't really want rebel yells because of the name, then they were in my guitar and  world, these own.



still want to try a set of them, but i'm afraid that they'll be JUST what i'm looking for and i'll feel the need to buy more, mostly because I hear great things about them and every clip i've heard with them sounds amazing.

I can't say i've ever been disappointed with any BKP i've tried or owned. Worst case scenario is that it was just "not exactly what I expected" but even then they were the better pickups i've had in my guitars.

pickups for example are the nailbomb, miracle man, and the C-Pig.

All good, but just not what I expected it to be. however the Mule, Abraxas, A-Pig, and Painkiller were all pretty much exactly what I expected if not better.

Only thing is every time I suggest a BKP I haven't tried and have only heard clips of I feel like the typical bandwagon types you see on most places on the internet who are quick to recommend something they haven't really had experience with but someone they like uses it so they jump on and go into fanboy mode.. But I try to give the most informed advice as I can by quoting specs, asking about their rig/guitar and whatnot...


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## SirMyghin

^^^

I hear you , I have a set of Nailbombs in an upcoming 7, I'll let you know how they compare with the RY's (which are 6's in my case). Hopefully they aren't too similar (albeit if they are I won't complain). They are pretty close EQ wise, according to the site. My ASAT special w/ the stock pickups gives me some great metal tones.


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## Curt

SirMyghin said:


> ^^^
> 
> I hear you , I have a set of Nailbombs in an upcoming 7, I'll let you know how they compare with the RY's (which are 6's in my case). Hopefully they aren't too similar (albeit if they are I won't complain). They are pretty close EQ wise, according to the site. My ASAT special w/ the stock pickups gives me some great metal tones.



I tried the Ceramic Nailbomb in a 6 and I wasn't a huge fan but it was a good enough pick-up but the mids were quite hollow for my taste.. i've been wanting to get hold of an Alnico one though, but income for me is very, very limited right now.

You are getting the Alnico Nailbombs, I assume. If so, i'm definitely looking forward to an opinon. 

As far as playing favorites with the line-up. The mules are KILLER pickups, especially if you're wanting your les paul or similar to sound like a good old les paul should.


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## Hollowway

Fun111 said:


> Also, you say you have some hot 8 string pickups, but if they're EMG or Blackouts they probably aren't anything like as hot as a hot passive pickup. EMG's aren't as hot as everyone thinks, far from, and as they increase in range (6, 7 or 8 strings) they tend also to get quieter to keep the very thick, very low tuned strings sounding clear and not overly distorted and farty.



Ah, good to know! No wonder I like my EMGs and Black Outs. But, with respect to the increase in range (like you said, from 6 to 8 strings), would that apply to passives as well? Sorry, I'm not really contributing to this thread, I'm just learning a lot, so pardon the sponging.


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## thrashcomics

Hollowway said:


> Ah, good to know! No wonder I like my EMGs and Black Outs. But, with respect to the increase in range (like you said, from 6 to 8 strings), would that apply to passives as well? Sorry, I'm not really contributing to this thread, I'm just learning a lot, so pardon the sponging.



im learning alot too. awesome thread.

edit: anyone try the VHII?


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## Rook

Yes, though you can get very hot passive extended range pickups, you tend to find that extended versions of six string pickups tend to be quieter. Lower output combined with the mch thicker core of the 7th and 8th strings keeps it clear.

It's for this reason that I use a wound G string, I like 12-56 on my strat in standard tuning and a plain 24 gauge string is just overpowering and muddy sounding, it sounds like someone banging on a tin bath. Wound strings, even as thick of a 68, tend to have a core smaller than a 24 gauge lol. This is one of the reasons basses have such a different timbre, the cores of the strings are much thicker.

VHII sounds familiar, but I don't remember what it is, a pickup?


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## thrashcomics

Fun111 said:


> VHII sounds familiar, but I don't remember what it is, a pickup?




its a bkp pickup


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## Duckykong

BKP Coldsweat? Med-low output. Most clarity I've ever heard in a pickup, period.


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## Rook

Coldsweat I understand is extremely good if you want a round, crisp and clear sound. Not experienced it myself.

Not played a VHII either I'm afraid


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## onefingersweep

Fun111 said:


> Also, you say you have some hot 8 string pickups, but if they're EMG or Blackouts they probably aren't anything like as hot as a hot passive pickup. EMG's aren't as hot as everyone thinks, far from, and as they increase in range (6, 7 or 8 strings) they tend also to get quieter to keep the very thick, very low tuned strings sounding clear and not overly distorted and farty.



What evidence do you have for this?

I find this interesting, have you measured and compared it to other pickups? As far as I'm concerned the EMG 81 is a very loud pickup.



Fun111 said:


> So, I think what you're after is something moderately powerful, the '390mV' or whatever quoted on DiMarzio's site is PEAK so that is how loud the loudest frequency is, the Steve's Special isn't a very hot pickup and all that power is coming from a very small set of very high frequencies.



Are you sure about this? I've read that dimarzio does their output measurements with and open A string on a standard tuned guitar, so if thats the case it's pretty low, 110 hz.


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## Rook

onefingersweep said:


> What evidence do you have for this?
> 
> I find this interesting, have you measured and compared it to other pickups? As far as I'm concerned the EMG 81 is a very loud pickup.



Aside from the fact that I can clearly hear it's quieter; I have a bench tuner with a volume meter, and have set up plenty of EMG laden guitars, so I've seen that they're quieter. The other thing to take into account is that EMG's should be as close as possible to the strings, and even then aren't as loud as a moderately hot passive - if you put one of these passives this close they'd be insanely loud.

It's not really a matter of evidence tbh, ask most people who know anything about pickups, it's pretty common knowledge. Or it should be...

Either way it's absolutely, indesputably true.



onefingersweep said:


> Are you sure about this? I've read that dimarzio does their output measurements with and open A string on a standard tuned guitar, so if thats the case it's pretty low, 110 hz.



Yes. Even on one string, 110Hz is just the fundamental, there are always harmonics. It's these harmonics that give a guitar it's different sound over a Piano or something, and makes guitar sound different to one another. If you measured how loud every frequency was when you played that A into a pickup, the fundamental should be the loudest, but this has to be adjusted for (factored out) when giving a general EQ shape for a pickup. So if you know what the string's putting out and what the pickup's putting out, the loudness of the string will be at the fundamental and the EQ shape comes from the pickup's output minus the string's actual sound.

I admit I phrased that bit poorly.


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## onefingersweep

Fun111 said:


> Aside from the fact that I can clearly hear it's quieter; I have a bench tuner with a volume meter, and have set up plenty of EMG laden guitars, so I've seen that they're quieter. The other thing to take into account is that EMG's should be as close as possible to the strings, and even then aren't as loud as a moderately hot passive - if you put one of these passives this close they'd be insanely loud.
> 
> It's not really a matter of evidence tbh, ask most people who know anything about pickups, it's pretty common knowledge. Or it should be...
> 
> Either way it's absolutely, indesputably true.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Even on one string, 110Hz is just the fundamental, there are always harmonics. It's these harmonics that give a guitar it's different sound over a Piano or something, and makes guitar sound different to one another. If you measured how loud every frequency was when you played that A into a pickup, the fundamental should be the loudest, but this has to be adjusted for (factored out) when giving a general EQ shape for a pickup. So if you know what the string's putting out and what the pickup's putting out, the loudness of the string will be at the fundamental and the EQ shape comes from the pickup's output minus the string's actual sound.
> 
> I admit I phrased that bit poorly.



I sense a bit of arrogance in your reply, can you please put that aside? I'm really not into debating, I simply asking because I want to know.

Everything it's a matter of evidence, as long as it's possible to provide evidence, as it is in this case, I don't see why that shouldn't matter. Every knowledge you can have in technology is and should be based on evidence.

So which pickups did you compare it with? Personally I think the EMG 81 is one of the loudest pickups I've tried but you bring up a really important point with the distance from the strings. Maybe thats why it think it's so loud. I haven't tried measuring output on any pickups, thats why I'm curious to get real evidence instead of opinions. Since you can't really compare Dimarzio's output guide to other brands unless they do it exactly the same way, most manufacturers doesn't even have an output guide. You can measure in different ways, so it has to be done exactly the same to be valid. So far I haven't seen anyone put together such a guide between different manufacturers, I'm very interested to see such a thing. Bench tuner and volume meter you say, okay, what number did you get out of that? How did you do? I thought you needed an oscilloscope, multimeter or something else that shows a true RMS value. As I said I'm really not looking for opinions, just scientific facts. Thats why I asked about evidence. I don't see how a volume meter would give an accurate view, but maybe if you explain more I might understand.


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## Rook

onefingersweep said:


> I sense a bit of arrogance in your reply, can you please put that aside? I'm really not into debating, I simply asking because I want to know.



I'm not being arrogant, I think you're just picking up on something that isn't there; I might say the same about your raising an issue with what I've said as I just said the sky were green. This is the internet, and I'm British, I wouldn't try and read my tone of voice from what I type 



onefingersweep said:


> So which pickups did you compare it with? Personally I think the EMG 81 is one of the loudest pickups I've tried but you bring up a really important point with the distance from the strings. Maybe thats why it think it's so loud. I haven't tried measuring output on any pickups, thats why I'm curious to get real evidence instead of opinions. Since you can't really compare Dimarzio's output guide to other brands unless they do it exactly the same way, most manufacturers doesn't even have an output guide. You can measure in different ways, so it has to be done exactly the same to be valid. So far I haven't seen anyone put together such a guide between different manufacturers, I'm very interested to see such a thing. Bench tuner and volume meter you say, okay, what number did you get out of that? How did you do? I thought you needed an oscilloscope, multimeter or something else that shows a true RMS value. As I said I'm really not looking for opinions, just scientific facts. Thats why I asked about evidence. I don't see how a volume meter would give an accurate view, but maybe if you explain more I might understand.



I didn't carry out a scientific study because it isn't 'all about evidence', it's very simple. My bench tuner (a very decent Korg one) has a volume meter at the bottom. One can qualitatively see how loud a pickup is every time you plug one in and start tuning, particularly intonating as it requires a lot of playing a single note and then a harmonic and an open string. As somebody who's plugged plenty of different guitars with different pickups - fitting new pickups is generally done as part of a full setup - I like to think I have a good grasp of what I expect to see on that irritating little volume meter that rolls along the bottom of the display. You plug something like a Crunch Lab, a Super Distortion, a Duncan Distortion etc you will see it right up in the 80's and 90's, whereas EMG's under the same conditions seldom make out of the 60's, in a similar fashion to pickups like the JB (though the JB is a little more dynamic and will spike in the 70's and even 80's if you whack it hard enough).

For the sake of saying:
A multimeter is never a good test for anything AC
RMS is only really used for AC when you want to work out power, peak and pk-pk voltages are actually what matter in this instance

In all honesty there are too many variables to carry out an incredibly stringent scientific test short of actually taking a driver such as a small speaker in a headphone, and testing each pickup's output at a set distance over a range of purely fundamental frequencies and making a spectrum. As you stated and indeed I did previously in this thread, DiMarzio's reading are taken under their own specific circumstances and don't really relate to any other brand, and should be taken with a pinch of salt when even comparing to other DiMarzio pickups.

I don't really know what exactly your goal is. You start talking to me about evidence, and you really are treating this as if I've just stated some horrific non-truth that defies all belief. A volume meter on a tuner (range 1-100 with a numeric readout and 100 cells) in this case needn't be any more accurate a device for measurement because all the other constraints are so loose. If the moon gets closer to and further from the earth over a range of 10ft a day, there's no point measuring the distance to the nearest millimetre.

As you said, I'm not here looking for a debate, I don't really know precisely what you're looking for, and some of your post I'd read as rhetoric, almost as if you're trying to discredit what I've aid but based on your opening statement this doesn't seem likely.

If you want to ask direct questions then I'll do my best answer them is all I can say.


----------



## SirMyghin

Fun111 said:


> Yes. Even on one string, 110Hz is just the fundamental, there are always harmonics. It's these harmonics that give a guitar it's different sound over a Piano or something, and makes guitar sound different to one another. If you measured how loud every frequency was when you played that A into a pickup, the fundamental should be the loudest, but this has to be adjusted for (factored out) when giving a general EQ shape for a pickup. So if you know what the string's putting out and what the pickup's putting out, the loudness of the string will be at the fundamental and the EQ shape comes from the pickup's output minus the string's actual sound.
> 
> I admit I phrased that bit poorly.



You sure about the fundamental being the strongest on guitar? I have heard and seen much to the contrary there.


----------



## Rook

If it wasn't then you'd play an A and the A an octave above or some multiple of fourths or fifths would sound.

The most boosting from the pickup, the frequencies at which it's more sensitive, aren't necessarily at the fundamental, quite the opposite in fact, but if you didn't ear the fundamental then you'd hear a different pitch to what you played.


----------



## onefingersweep

Fun111 said:


> I'm not being arrogant, I think you're just picking up on something that isn't there; I might say the same about your raising an issue with what I've said as I just said the sky were green. This is the internet, and I'm British, I wouldn't try and read my tone of voice from what I type
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't carry out a scientific study because it isn't 'all about evidence', it's very simple. My bench tuner (a very decent Korg one) has a volume meter at the bottom. One can qualitatively see how loud a pickup is every time you plug one in and start tuning, particularly intonating as it requires a lot of playing a single note and then a harmonic and an open string. As somebody who's plugged plenty of different guitars with different pickups - fitting new pickups is generally done as part of a full setup - I like to think I have a good grasp of what I expect to see on that irritating little volume meter that rolls along the bottom of the display. You plug something like a Crunch Lab, a Super Distortion, a Duncan Distortion etc you will see it right up in the 80's and 90's, whereas EMG's under the same conditions seldom make out of the 60's, in a similar fashion to pickups like the JB (though the JB is a little more dynamic and will spike in the 70's and even 80's if you whack it hard enough).
> 
> For the sake of saying:
> A multimeter is never a good test for anything AC
> RMS is only really used for AC when you want to work out power, peak and pk-pk voltages are actually what matter in this instance
> 
> In all honesty there are too many variables to carry out an incredibly stringent scientific test short of actually taking a driver such as a small speaker in a headphone, and testing each pickup's output at a set distance over a range of purely fundamental frequencies and making a spectrum. As you stated and indeed I did previously in this thread, DiMarzio's reading are taken under their own specific circumstances and don't really relate to any other brand, and should be taken with a pinch of salt when even comparing to other DiMarzio pickups.
> 
> I don't really know what exactly your goal is. You start talking to me about evidence, and you really are treating this as if I've just stated some horrific non-truth that defies all belief. A volume meter on a tuner (range 1-100 with a numeric readout and 100 cells) in this case needn't be any more accurate a device for measurement because all the other constraints are so loose. If the moon gets closer to and further from the earth over a range of 10ft a day, there's no point measuring the distance to the nearest millimetre.
> 
> As you said, I'm not here looking for a debate, I don't really know precisely what you're looking for, and some of your post I'd read as rhetoric, almost as if you're trying to discredit what I've aid but based on your opening statement this doesn't seem likely.
> 
> If you want to ask direct questions then I'll do my best answer them is all I can say.



I feel sorry for you if you don't realize that you were very arrogant in your reply. How about this:

"It's not really a matter of evidence tbh, ask most people who know anything about pickups, it's pretty common knowledge. Or it should be..."

Seems like arrogance to me, if it's not I don't really know what is. What are you trying to say, that everyone that takes your opinions as fact knows about pickups and everyone else doesn't know anything? 


You volume meter test doesn't fully convince me, you still haven't even answered which pickups you compared (except a few). Having a volume meter doesn't tell much. Different guitars, different strings, different force you hit the strings, does not really give a scientific answer, which was what was seeking from the beginning. If you don't have that, which I'm sure you don't now, you don't need to even reply to my comments because you have explained how you did now. I was not looking to discredit you, I was curious if you actually had done any measurements. I know people who have but not on EMG that was why I was curious. I know there might be a lot of passives that are hotter than EMG's but I still think they're pretty damn hot pickups, I wouldn't go as far to say that all "high output passives" are hotter.

Yes your opinion is just as good as anyone else but it's just an opinion and it was not what I was looking for. Hope you understand.


----------



## Quitty

onefingersweep said:


> *rant*.


This is quite the pointless argument, if you don't mind me saying.

I side with Fun111 on this one, though - first off, the fundamental is irrefutably the loudest frequency you'd get out of a string, and for the exact aforementioned reasons.
The next loudest frequency would be an octave higher, and would output at a tad under half the volume of the first.

As for EMGs, their being active allows them to appear to slam inputs harder than passive designs, similar to recording a guitar direct to sound card, or via a DI or preamp - dropping the preamp/DI would 'shave' off frequencies off the top and bottom of your signal and change the waveform (i believe this would be momentary phase shifting or a shift in offset, but i'm not sure) in a way that would make it appear weaker, and hence quieter.
Add the DI in the chain, and the sound becomes clearer and fuller - but you won't be slamming the actual input any harder as the peak DB levels are in areas that aren't affected by the mismatched impedance.

Passive, high output pickups are louder. Work them through a DI box to match impedances with an EMG equipped guitar, and you can scientifically prove that.

Concerning the JB, it's output is actually quite crazy. Reason why you're not reading it on your Korg, Fun111, might be because tuners - especially higher quality ones - contain bandpass filters to isolate relevant pieces of sound, and might be filtering out the JB's peaking high-end. Picking harder would distort the filters and/or input on the tuner, and add some sub-fundamental, 'exciter' style frequencies that would peak your DB meter.


----------



## Rook

Onefingersweep, just to clarify a few things:

1) Read what you did however you like, as I said before I'm not being arrogant so no need to feel sorry for me.
2) What you quoted as me being arrogant I think you misread. I love learning, and everything I know I've learnt from somebody who knows better than I do. I happen to be lucky enough to know a few good techs (I wasn't including myself in that and never said I was) who all, without exception, will tell you EMG's are generally not as hot as hot passives. I'm sorry but you keep arguing with me as if I'm the one that decided this and so I should come up with evidence. I'm not stating my opinion, as far as I know what I'm saying is fact. If somebody proves otherwise then obviously I'll keep note.
3) Like I said a minute ago, you make a comment like 'everyone who takes what you say as fact knows about pickups'; like is said this isn't my opinion, it is a fact. I didn't decide it was fact, and I wasn't there when the decision was made but I'm afraid in this instance it just is true. This is no different to saying a ferrari 360's faster than a ford fiesta.
4) Like I said I didn't do a scientific test, I was told that EMG's aren't as hot as hot passives and my experience reflects that. I'm basing my experience on my bench tuner which has a volume meter which frankly one can't help but notice.
5) Your 'all high output pickup's comment as relating bein hotter than actives - obviously it depends on your criteria for a 'hot passive' and what you're comparing to. In this instance I'd be confident in saying that 'anything that DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan or Bare Knuckle class as high output pickups on their website will be hotter than any stock EMG currently in production'.
6) For the record, I didn't say you _were_ being arrogant, I said I could construe what you were saying as arrogance, though on reflection I would have found a more accurate term for it.

All I'm saying is (going round in circles here) I've been told that this is the case by several highly reputable sources, and based on my own experience of changing pickups and setting up guitars I'd agree. When setting up guitars, I alway use the same tuner that has a fairly precise volume meter (though not scientifically so) and I always use the same routine of playing an open string with about the same force when intonating.

I don't know why this has turned into you attacking me as if I just said black is white. If you don't agree or don't want to believe me then don't. I don't know anything about you so wouldn't dare comment on your intelligence, credibility, or ability to make a reasoned decision.

Quitty:
I appreciate your reasoned and considered response and agree with everything you said.

I would add to previous comments, another reason EMG's feel so hot is because of compression inherent in the preamp, which you normally don't get so much from passives until you get to quite high output levels.

EDIT: I just reread my last few epic posts and in the voice I'm reading it really doesn't sound arrogant to me. Granted I wrote them, but please don't take it that way as it wasn't intended, I'm sorry if it got you angry or something but I wasn't meant to! Honestly! I usually don't bother getting into these forum debating societies but on this instance it was clear you were bothered by something. I'm not trying to justify myself or whatever, I'm trying my hardest to make you see I'm not just being a dick and to try to help you understand what I'm saying.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Hollowway said:


> So if this is the case how come everyone talks about how great the high output BKPs sound vs the lower output BKPs? It's not like the average Miracle Man or Warpig user can't get more gain out of their amp. Users of those pickups tend to use high gain amps.


 
99% of the stuff discussed on this site is personal preference... I'd venture to say that's why.


----------



## ShadowFactoryX

onefingersweep, quit being ignorant
just because you use emg's and they APPEAR to be louder, doesnt mean they are hotter.
you're ignoring the fact of the active circuit, which would be the "culprit" you could say.

i sense douchery of an insurmountable magnitude from you

fun, i greatly appreciate what you've shared in this thread, learned a lot.
im curious though, other than tone, what direct outstanding difference do you get from ceramic vs. alnico


----------



## Konfyouzd

Duckykong said:


> BKP Coldsweat? Med-low output. Most clarity I've ever heard in a pickup, period.


 
I'll second that. Every time I've heard someone playing these they sound clean as hell. VERY articulate.


----------



## neoclassical

I used an SD 59 for high gain work for years, it works amazingly well. I didn't believe it would do it either.


----------



## Quitty

ShadowFactoryX said:


> onefingersweep, quit being ignorant
> just because you use emg's and they APPEAR to be louder, doesnt mean they are hotter.
> you're ignoring the fact of the active circuit, which would be the "culprit" you could say.
> 
> i sense douchery of an insurmountable magnitude from you
> 
> fun, i greatly appreciate what you've shared in this thread, learned a lot.
> im curious though, other than tone, what direct outstanding difference do you get from ceramic vs. alnico


 
Ceramics are higher in output, have a more 'open' sound (less lower mids, mostly, and a higher resonant peak - meaning your treble is centered higher up the spectrum).
They're usually less growly, and more fizzy - but that depends a lot on the rest of the pickup construction and features.
They have a sharper attack, and do well to balance out high output buckers that sound dull from being overwound.

They also have been known to sound 'colder', or more 'sterile' - but that's getting too subjective, IMO.


----------



## Rook

ShadowFactoryX said:


> fun, i greatly appreciate what you've shared in this thread, learned a lot.
> im curious though, other than tone, what direct outstanding difference do you get from ceramic vs. alnico



 It's cool bro.

In my experience, if an you swapped the magnet in an AlNiCo V based pickup to ceramic the pickup would:
1) Get hotter, ceramic magnets are pound for pound have a stronger magnetic field than AlNiCo variants (2, 5 or 8 most commonly, more on that in a sec)
2) Exaggerate spikes in the pickup's EQ - this is a similar effect to 1) and is pretty subtle
3) Due to a a change in the mechanical properties of the magnet itself, ceramic magnets tend to promote upper mids and treble and consequently most (but not all) have quite a tight (quiet, Hi Fi) low end.

Ceramic is a harder, more brittle material than most AlNiCos, and the sound difference us reflected in that.

There's just as much difference in AlNiCo types. As the number increases, they get more magnetic and often brighter sounding.

That would be my qualitative assessment anyway. I'm sure there's more to it but my brain's a but scrambled at the moment.

EDIT:  Ninja'd by Quitty. What he said^^^


----------



## ShadowFactoryX

very cool. i wasnt too much into the technical aspects of guitar electronics until recently. this info will be greatly used

mad props man


----------



## SirMyghin

ShadowFactoryX said:


> very cool. i wasnt too much into the technical aspects of guitar electronics until recently. this info will be greatly used
> 
> mad props man



The good thing about guitar electronics is they are pretty simple, unless you go as far as designing your own pickups. Even electrical retards like me can understand them.


----------



## ShadowFactoryX

same here, its fairly simple. i took an electronics class in high school, but i now im kickin myself in the arse for forgetting it


----------



## Quitty

Fun111 said:


> It's cool bro.
> 
> In my experience, if an you swapped the magnet in an AlNiCo V based pickup to ceramic the pickup would:
> 1) Get hotter, ceramic magnets are pound for pound have a stronger magnetic field than AlNiCo variants (2, 5 or 8 most commonly, more on that in a sec)
> 2) Exaggerate spikes in the pickup's EQ - this is a similar effect to 1) and is pretty subtle
> 3) Due to a a change in the mechanical properties of the magnet itself, ceramic magnets tend to promote upper mids and treble and consequently most (but not all) have quite a tight (quiet, Hi Fi) low end.
> 
> Ceramic is a harder, more brittle material than most AlNiCos, and the sound difference us reflected in that.
> 
> There's just as much difference in AlNiCo types. As the number increases, they get more magnetic and often brighter sounding.
> 
> That would be my qualitative assessment anyway. I'm sure there's more to it but my brain's a but scrambled at the moment.
> 
> EDIT:  Ninja'd by Quitty. What he said^^^



Hmm... In your experience, Alnico 8's hotter than ceramics?
I got the impression it was the other way around, but i may have just fallen for clever (and surprisingly uniform) marketing.

I'm curious in general over that whole Alnico 8 thing. Never touched a pup that had them.


----------



## Rook

Nah that isn't what I meant, ceramic is stronger than AlNiCo 8.

I'm not much of a fan of alnico 8, every pickup I've heard with this magnet has been a bit honky and odd. I'm sure it's possible to get it to sound good but pickups I like are generally AlNiCo 2 or ceramic based, clarity!


----------



## blackrobedone

In my experience, low output pickups have a twang or honk (cocked wah-ish spike) to them that doesn't work for metal, regardless of how much gain the amp has. Super high output pickups are virtually useless for increasing the gain of your amp considering the amount of gain on most amps these days, but I believe that the high output pickups marketed to metal players aren't built simply to overdrive amps, but to also give you a good tone with a lot of distortion. My experience with lower gain pickups has usually given me a tone like Slash on the Illusion albums when using a lot of gain - bright, crackley, and messy. It's as if they protest the higher gain settings on your amp. I will get a lot of flack for this but I say they don't stay more clear than high output pickups with chords and a lot of gain - they are much less clear. Maybe the single notes are more clear, but to my ears, chords were a mess.
Not to mention the lack of percussive low end . . .


----------



## Konfyouzd

^ That seems to completely go against what everyone else has said about lower output pickups handling more gain well.


----------



## Curt

blackrobedone said:


> In my experience, low output pickups have a twang or honk (cocked wah-ish spike) to them that doesn't work for metal, regardless of how much gain the amp has. Super high output pickups are virtually useless for increasing the gain of your amp considering the amount of gain on most amps these days, but I believe that the high output pickups marketed to metal players aren't built simply to overdrive amps, but to also give you a good tone with a lot of distortion. My experience with lower gain pickups has usually given me a tone like Slash on the Illusion albums when using a lot of gain - bright, crackley, and messy. It's as if they protest the higher gain settings on your amp. I will get a lot of flack for this but I say they don't stay more clear than high output pickups with chords and a lot of gain - they are much less clear. Maybe the single notes are more clear, but to my ears, chords were a mess.
> Not to mention the lack of percussive low end . . .





Konfyouzd said:


> ^ That seems to completely go against what everyone else has said about lower output pickups handling more gain well.



He could have been doing a number of things wrong... Not to mention the "low output pickups" he was probably going on about were ones that were voiced in such a way, or they were stock pickups that sounded honky, harsh, and messy, etc. and he mistook them for low output simply because of that.
not all low output pickups work well in all guitars, same goes for all pickups actually, so I can see where he would get that. and also, preferences.


----------



## Curt

Fun111 said:


> Nah that isn't what I meant, ceramic is stronger than AlNiCo 8.
> 
> I'm not much of a fan of alnico 8, every pickup I've heard with this magnet has been a bit honky and odd. I'm sure it's possible to get it to sound good but pickups I like are generally AlNiCo 2 or ceramic based, clarity!



I'm not a huge fan of most ceramic mag pickups... AlNiCo 2 or 5 (or IV in the case of my mules, which I love.) is usually what gets it done for me. I had 3 pickups with the A8 magnet and I didn't like a single one of them all too well..

All duncans, too...
Alternative 8
JB 8(home modded JB)
Custom 8(home modded Custom 5)

and they all were too shrill and super "squishy" sounding in the mids.

sometimes a different magnet is all it takes to make a pickup better for you... I took the JB 8 and put an A2 in it and loved the way it sounded in my schecter.


----------



## ShadowFactoryX

never heard squishy to describe a pickup sound until now. and i dont think that would sound too good.


----------



## Curt

ShadowFactoryX said:


> never heard squishy to describe a pickup sound until now. and i dont think that would sound too good.



"squishy" probably isn't the best word to describe it...

but it literally kind of makes a "kwhewh" (trying to figure out a way to sound it out phonetically)sound that reminds me of an over-exaggerated/amplified squishing sound from a cartoon. I guess the attack really honky mids in combination with the really bright and sharp attack of alder is what gives it that character. In mahogany it might work better...

I'm not good at describing tone, just dialing it in(i'd like to think anyway.)


----------



## McCap

Sorry, I didn't read the whoe thread so maybe I'm just restating things, but anyway...

...a pickup basically picks up the string vibrations, colors them, and send them to the amp!
The "Coloring" comes from it's specs, these roughly being: 
- Inductance
- Resistance
- Capacitance
(- Aperture how broad is the magnetic field; single coil vs humbucker...)

The "Coloring" looks something like this:





[ Read more on that page: BuildYourGuitar.com :: The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups ]

As you can see a pickup has a resonance frequency, where it has a peak, and it has a Q (the height of the peak). After the peak the transmittance is cut off quite fast.
This peak is basically the "color" of the pickup.

Now very generally speaking low output pickups tend to have higher resonance frequencies and higher Q, while high output pickups have lower resonance frequencies and lower Q.
(Check Seymour Duncan's site, who is one of the few pickup builder who actually gives values for resonance frequencies, and not the more or less worthless resistance vlues everybody gives)

Remember that the final resonance frequenciy also depends on your tone pot, cable, cable length, etc... but all these things always pull it down and lower the Q. You cannot shift it to higher frequencies unless you go active.
Typical resonance frequencies (with cable etc...) are around 1-2kHz.

High gain adds a ton of overtones to your sound! w
This means the gain adds high where there weren't any before.
So a pickup with a high resonance frequency may sound harsh, ice picky, shrill. On the other hand, due to it beeing less muddy it may be good for downtuned stuff.
Pickups with a lower resonance frequency, combined with high gain, may give you smoother lead tones, as they have less high to start with. That is why they are often not so clear when played clean.

Tried to give a short overview, hope this is helpfull.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Curt said:


> "squishy" probably isn't the best word to describe it...
> 
> but it literally kind of makes a "kwhewh" (trying to figure out a way to sound it out phonetically)sound that reminds me of an over-exaggerated/amplified squishing sound from a cartoon. I guess the attack really honky mids in combination with the really bright and sharp attack of alder is what gives it that character. In mahogany it might work better...
> 
> I'm not good at describing tone, just dialing it in(i'd like to think anyway.)


 
I try to describe tone in terms of singers' voices and hope the ppl I'm talking to have heard of said singers... 

Like... Honky = Barbara Streissand or Bob Dylan and then a smoother one would be like Anita Baker or Al Green... 

These are extremes of course


----------



## 1b4n3z

McCap;2495406
Read more on that page: [URL="http://buildyourguitar.com/resources/lemme/" said:


> BuildYourGuitar.com :: The Secrets of Electric Guitar Pickups[/URL]



Man that is a superb site! Thank you for sharing!


----------



## Curt

Konfyouzd said:


> I try to describe tone in terms of singers' voices and hope the ppl I'm talking to have heard of said singers...
> 
> Like... Honky = Barbara Streissand or Bob Dylan and then a smoother one would be like Anita Baker or Al Green...
> 
> These are extremes of course




The JB 8 and Alternative 8 were definitely a couple of Bob Dylan's. 

On a serious note, I do dig some bob dylan, but his voice is just.


----------



## zimbloth

As someone who sells, installs, plays, and obsesses over pickups for a living, my simple answer to the original poster is: *sometimes*.

Some lower output pickups sound crushing for extreme metal because they're voiced right, are articulate, and react with your amp positively. However it has to be a really good pickup. Just being low output alone doesnt help. Just look at the DiMarzio PAF7. Sure they're low output, but they're ceramics and sound lifeless/dry to my ears. They have none of the richness or character of traditional alnico low-output pickups. The BKP Black Dog is mentioned a lot on forums too, but I don't think thats the best solution either. I don't think thats a good pickup for extreme metal whatsoever. It's just not voiced right to my ears. However models like the Rebel Yell, Mule, Emerald, or other low/medium output pickups can absolutely kill for that stuff. 

The same goes for high output pickups. Some can sound killer, and others wont. It depends on the pickup, if its a good match for your guitar/rig, etc. There are plenty of great high-output pickups. Asides from BKPs, Lundgrens, or other boutique brands, DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan both make some very good ones too. It just depends. You have to avoid getting something that is a mismatch for the makeup of your guitar or your amp. Doing research and talking to experience folks can help with this.

In my case, I've found that both low and high output pickups can equally suit my style, for example:

My two main guitars are PRS Custom 24s. One has BKP Aftermaths in it, which are pretty hot. The other has PRS 57/08 pickups in it, which are vintage low output pickups. Despite the huge discrepancy in character and output, they both suit my band equally as well and both sound insanely brutal. My BKP Aftermath PRS is tuned to B and the 57/08 PRS is tuned to A. Both do the job, they just sound different. 

There's really no right answer. My opinion is that targeting a pickup with a specific amount of output is a mistake. Just try to find the best sounding pickup for the makeup of your guitar and for your style. Low, medium, and high-output pickups can all work equally as well, regardless of tuning. The quality of the pickup is key, not the output. For example, I loathe most active pickups - especially in 7 and 8-strings. I find they're murky, noisy and messy sounding compared to good passives. Whenever I play an 8-string with EMG 808s or SD Blackouts I want to cry. However the output alone isnt the issue, as the DiMarzio D-Activator 8, BKP and Lundgren 8s sound killer, despite also being high-output.


----------



## Hollowway

zimbloth said:


> As someone who sells, installs, plays, and obsesses over pickups for a living, my simple answer to the original poster is: *sometimes*.
> 
> Some lower output pickups sound crushing for extreme metal because they're voiced right, are articulate, and react with your amp positively. However it has to be a really good pickup. Just being low output alone doesnt help. Just look at the DiMarzio PAF7. Sure they're low output, but they're ceramics and sound lifeless/dry to my ears. They have none of the richness or character of traditional alnico low-output pickups. The BKP Black Dog is mentioned a lot on forums too, but I don't think thats the best solution either. I don't think thats a good pickup for extreme metal whatsoever. It's just not voiced right to my ears. However models like the Rebel Yell, Mule, Emerald, or other low/medium output pickups can absolutely kill for that stuff.
> 
> The same goes for high output pickups. Some can sound killer, and others wont. It depends on the pickup, if its a good match for your guitar/rig, etc. There are plenty of great high-output pickups. Asides from BKPs, Lundgrens, or other boutique brands, DiMarzio and Seymour Duncan both make some very good ones too. It just depends. You have to avoid getting something that is a mismatch for the makeup of your guitar or your amp. Doing research and talking to experience folks can help with this.
> 
> In my case, I've found that both low and high output pickups can equally suit my style, for example:
> 
> My two main guitars are PRS Custom 24s. One has BKP Aftermaths in it, which are pretty hot. The other has PRS 57/08 pickups in it, which are vintage low output pickups. Despite the huge discrepancy in character and output, they both suit my band equally as well and both sound insanely brutal. My BKP Aftermath PRS is tuned to B and the 57/08 PRS is tuned to A. Both do the job, they just sound different.
> 
> There's really no right answer. My opinion is that targeting a pickup with a specific amount of output is a mistake. Just try to find the best sounding pickup for the makeup of your guitar and for your style. Low, medium, and high-output pickups can all work equally as well, regardless of tuning. The quality of the pickup is key, not the output. For example, I loathe most active pickups - especially in 7 and 8-strings. I find they're murky, noisy and messy sounding compared to good passives. Whenever I play an 8-string with EMG 808s or SD Blackouts I want to cry. However the output alone isnt the issue, as the DiMarzio D-Activator 8, BKP and Lundgren 8s sound killer, despite also being high-output.



Awesome info! You always blow my mind with your experience with this stuff.


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## zimbloth

Hollowway said:


> Awesome info! You always blow my mind with your experience with this stuff.



Thanks man. I'm just trying to save people time and headaches on their quest for better tone. There is a lot of misleading information out there in my opinion. Not in this thread necessarily, just in general.


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