# Michael Angelo Batio with Sawtooth guitars



## Pat (Jan 29, 2020)

...has anybody heard of/played a Sawtooth? I'd never heard of them before MAB announced he was now a Sawtooth artist. 

Some of their stuff looks pretty cool - I like the Teles and Strats, but they just seem like a brand aimed at new players/players on a budget.

Anybody know what happened with his Dean sponsorship?


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## JustinRhoads1980 (Jan 29, 2020)

Interested to know about this aswell


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## ArtDecade (Jan 29, 2020)

Pat said:


> Anybody know what happened with his Dean sponsorship?



Michael was shredding so fast and furious that he kept literally burning up fretboards. Dean couldn't keep up with all the kindling that he was making of their guitars so that they had to part ways. Sawtooth was all like, yeah our guitars are made so that they don't burst into flames or what-have-you. Michael said that sounds like a plus and where do I sign?


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## Vyn (Jan 29, 2020)

Guessing they let him and everyone else go to pay for KK coming on board


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## bostjan (Jan 29, 2020)

Hmm, he's still on Dean's website: https://www.deanguitars.com/artist?name=michael-angelo-batio


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 29, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Hmm, he's still on Dean's website: https://www.deanguitars.com/artist?name=michael-angelo-batio



Dude's pretty much all Sawtooth. Checked his Instagram and he's whoring the fuuuuck out for them.  

He does have a couple of sigs coming out. A standard white Superstrat and some weird Tele deal with a S-H-H config and a Floyd.


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## NotDonVito (Jan 29, 2020)

I kind of want one of those sawtooth pbasses. They're like $130 sketchy amazon shit, but that's how i roll.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 29, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Dude's pretty much all Sawtooth. Checked his Instagram and he's whoring the fuuuuck out for them.
> 
> He does have a couple of sigs coming out. A standard white Superstrat and some weird Tele deal with a S-H-H config and a Floyd.



If you watch the vids he's posted playing Sawtooth stuff live you'll usually see a Dean MAB or two hiding out by his amp. 

Probably using them till the Sawtooth sigs materialize. 

For a niche artist like Batio sometimes a smaller company can be a better fit.


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## Pat (Jan 30, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If you watch the vids he's posted playing Sawtooth stuff live you'll usually see a Dean MAB or two hiding out by his amp.
> 
> Probably using them till the Sawtooth sigs materialize.
> 
> For a niche artist like Batio sometimes a smaller company can be a better fit.


Yeah true, he can probably get more of what he wants than he did from Dean.

Just seems such a strange fit for him - to go from guitars covered with flames and spiky double neck stuff to a company that seems to focus exclusively on traditional and vintage stylings seems odd.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 30, 2020)

Pat said:


> Yeah true, he can probably get more of what he wants than he did from Dean.
> 
> Just seems such a strange fit for him - to go from guitars covered with flames and spiky double neck stuff to a company that seems to focus exclusively on traditional and vintage stylings seems odd.



The dude is in his 60's. Maybe he's mellowing out a little.


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## Pat (Jan 30, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The dude is in his 60's. Maybe he's mellowing out a little.


Fair point, I didn't realise he was that old - the wig tricked me!

His new double Tele does look cool if a little odd on him


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## mystix (Jan 31, 2020)

I always thought sawtooth was a cheap bobo brand


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## Nicki (Jan 31, 2020)

To be honest, these look like cheap kit guitars that were assembled and painted with decent pickups put in. Especially so, given that these are all pretty much just a straight up copy/paste from the real deal models they look like. Nothing unique about them. The Satin Black Hertiage looks awesome, but these don't scream "quality" to me. I could be totally wrong, and awesome if I am, but I don't know enough about the brand, build process or QC to be willing to drop real money for one.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 31, 2020)

mystix said:


> I always thought sawtooth was a cheap bobo brand



It is.


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## bzhang9 (Jan 31, 2020)

one of the most skilled bad guitarists ever, the only sig I would buy is his quad neck


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## bostjan (Jan 31, 2020)

bzhang9 said:


> one of the most skilled bad guitarists ever, the only sig I would buy is his quad neck


Bad guitarist? Naw, he's a phenomenal guitarist who is a(n arguably) bad musician. Richard Benson would be the most skilled bad guitarists.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 1, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Bad guitarist? Naw, he's a phenomenal guitarist who is a(n arguably) bad musician. Richard Benson would be the most skilled bad guitarists.


richard benson actually wasn't bad back in the day apparently.


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## Solodini (Feb 4, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Dude's pretty much all Sawtooth. Checked his Instagram and he's whoring the fuuuuck out for them.
> 
> He does have a couple of sigs coming out. A standard white Superstrat and some weird Tele deal with a S-H-H config and a Floyd.



*S-H-H-S config. https://www.instagram.com/p/B7jr90wHk2o/


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## 77zark77 (Feb 4, 2020)

No sustainer ?


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## AndiKravljaca (Feb 4, 2020)

What in the world, two pickup switches?!


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## Zhysick (Feb 4, 2020)

AndiKravljaca said:


> What in the world, two pickup switches?!


Three...

Two blade styled and one toggle a la Les Paul... Probably to switch between the singles and the humbuckers. Who knows...


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## Zado (Feb 5, 2020)

KnightBrolaire said:


> richard benson actually wasn't bad back in the day apparently.



He was actually pretty good, too bad there aren't many tracks n vids around to certify this. Then the whole suicide thing happened and he became a web parody.

That said, it was unexpected when I saw this change of brand in his Instagram page, Mab was a dean die hard fan, when he came here for a clinic he even refused to play with an Ibanez pick given from a guy from the crown cause he only played Dean stuff.. Something must have happened, that's the world of endorsements I guess.
Super nice and funny guy btw.


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## sirbuh (Feb 14, 2020)

Got some clarity on the switch from Dean: seems he didn't get along with the post Elliot mgmt and wanted to go 180 from Dean.
Totally worth seeing live. 
Technique is great and likes to tell stories in his dotage.


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## shadowlife (Feb 21, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> The dude is in his 60's. Maybe he's mellowing out a little.



He might be getting ready to record his blues album...


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## sirbuh (Feb 21, 2020)

shadowlife said:


> He might be getting ready to record his blues album...


Too soon


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## RothKholum (May 5, 2020)

Pat said:


> ...has anybody heard of/played a Sawtooth? I'd never heard of them before MAB announced he was now a Sawtooth artist.
> 
> Some of their stuff looks pretty cool - I like the Teles and Strats, but they just seem like a brand aimed at new players/players on a budget.
> 
> Anybody know what happened with his Dean sponsorship?


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## RothKholum (May 5, 2020)

Sawtooth guitars are built for budget segment. To promote the brand and its products MAB has been made to endorse the guitars. However, the particular models MAB played are different from the regular budget line of the series. And most probably, the contract of endorsement with Dean guitars has ended. Otherwise, it would be contradictory playing Sawtooth guitars while being endorsing Dean guitars.


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## GoldDragon (May 5, 2020)

I would actually buy this today if it was in stock. OFR, bound neck with inlays, medium jumbo frets (good luck finding that on any shredder but a Suhr), and a nice headstock.

https://www.sawtoothworld.com/m24-series-electric-guitars







The reason we've been buying Korean (and later) Indonesian superstrats is because they have the OFR. I mean this seriously, what is the difference between this an an indo Jackson?

$450


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## spudmunkey (May 5, 2020)

String alignment appears to be right on the money.


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## RothKholum (May 5, 2020)

Good guitars do not depend on brands. Irrespective of the place where they are manufactured, be it China, Indonesia, Vietnam or whatsoever, it could be far better than those made in Western countries if craftmanship is up to the mark and the hardwares and electronics used are standard. Guitars made in Asian countries are pretty playable and most importantly, they do not burn your pocket. However, there are some people who have the psychology that only guitars made in America are the best. In fact, this is far from the fact when prices are taken into consideration.


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## BlackSG91 (May 5, 2020)

Their guitars look pretty solid and good quality but their amplifiers sound killer with that 1 kHz mid-boost frequency that helps you cut through the mix.




;>)/


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## sirbuh (May 5, 2020)

A white fixed bridge will likely happen as soon as they are released.
Would like to gain more confidence around the build. Specs look rad.


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## spudmunkey (May 5, 2020)

RothKholum said:


> Good guitars do not depend on brands. Irrespective of the place where they are manufactured, be it China, Indonesia, Vietnam or whatsoever, it could be far better than those made in Western countries if craftmanship is up to the mark and the hardwares and electronics used are standard. Guitars made in Asian countries are pretty playable and most importantly, they do not burn your pocket. However, there are some people who have the psychology that only guitars made in America are the best. In fact, this is far from the fact when prices are taken into consideration.



People have that psychology because there is decades of precident where non-Japanese guitars from asia, at almost any price point, were of lower quality. They were cheaper AND worse. There _were_ no "high quality" guitars from Indonesia or China outside of their domestic markets.

The timeline we live in now, where guitars form other parts of the world CAN stand up to Japanese, North American and European brands, is a comparitively recent phenomenon and still takes some time to turn around the enormous ship that is public perception.


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## GoldDragon (May 5, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> People have that psychology because there is decades of precident where non-Japanese guitars from asia, at almost any price point, were of lower quality. They were cheaper AND worse. There _were_ no "high quality" guitars from Indonesia or China outside of their domestic markets.
> 
> The timeline we live in now, where guitars form other parts of the world CAN stand up to Japanese, North American and European brands, is a comparitively recent phenomenon and still takes some time to turn around the enormous ship that is public perception.



My take on this is that it doesn't take a ton more effort to build a good guitar than a shitty one.

When you buy a low-end Ibanez/Gio, it is intentionally crippled with bad hardware (bad bridge, tuners, neck without reinforcements, etc.) so that it doesnt outshine the higher models. If the factory handed the workers on the Gio assembly line a lopro trem, told them to put a flame top on it, and take an extra 15 minutes polishing the fretwork, it would probably come out pretty identical to a Prestige.

If you buy something like a Sawtooth, they aren't worried about cannibalizing their higher end sales, so they can put an OFR on it and they can give it nice inlays. Same with the Harley Benton guitars, the cheap guitars ARE the high end guitars. They give the factory workers an OFR and tell them to take some extra time on the fretwork. They can charge $450 instead of $250 and the buyer gets a pretty nice guitar.

Thats why these are a great value. I would stick with solid colors because IME, the flame tops are usually finished in dark colors to hide flaws in the grain.. they end up looking pretty muddy.


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## RothKholum (May 5, 2020)

Take Harley Benton guitars, especially the Fusion Series for an example. The tonewood (roasted maple), hardware (OFR, Wilkinson, Grover), stainless steel frets, pickups (Roswell, a branded pickups manufactured by an experienced South Korean company called WSC), the craftmanship and finish of the guitars are matchless for any other guitars made by big brands which already had the market identity when taken as value for money. Also, their acoustic guitars which are armed with Fishman Presys are no less yet quite inexpensive. Though the Harley Benton brand belongs to Thomann, Bavaria, Germany, the guitars are built in Vietnam, China and Indonesia. Those factories who built the Harley Benton guitars are the factories who built PRS SE, Solar Guitars, Chapman Guitars, Ibanez, ESP LTD, Dean, so on and so forth. Brand name and places of manufacture are never the criteria for a decent guitar. It is the Quality-Price ratio which is most important.


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## GoldDragon (May 7, 2020)

RothKholum said:


> Take Harley Benton guitars, especially the Fusion Series for an example. The tonewood (roasted maple), hardware (OFR, Wilkinson, Grover), stainless steel frets, pickups (Roswell, a branded pickups manufactured by an experienced South Korean company called WSC), the craftmanship and finish of the guitars are matchless for any other guitars made by big brands which already had the market identity when taken as value for money. Also, their acoustic guitars which are armed with Fishman Presys are no less yet quite inexpensive. Though the Harley Benton brand belongs to Thomann, Bavaria, Germany, the guitars are built in Vietnam, China and Indonesia. Those factories who built the Harley Benton guitars are the factories who built PRS SE, Solar Guitars, Chapman Guitars, Ibanez, ESP LTD, Dean, so on and so forth. Brand name and places of manufacture are never the criteria for a decent guitar. It is the Quality-Price ratio which is most important.



Honestly though, the name kinda does matter towards the image of the guitar. Harley Benton is not a cool name. Solar is a cool name. Sawtooth is better than Harley Benton, but sounds like they came up with it in a chinese board room.


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## failsafe (May 7, 2020)

BlackSG91 said:


> Their guitars look pretty solid and good quality but their amplifiers sound killer with that 1 kHz mid-boost frequency that helps you cut through the mix.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do those amps push air?


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## Wildebeest (May 7, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Honestly though, the name kinda does matter towards the image of the guitar. Harley Benton is not a cool name. Solar is a cool name. Sawtooth is better than Harley Benton, but sounds like they came up with it in a chinese board room.


Harley Benton sounds like a company that makes tricycles with motors.


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## Mathemagician (May 7, 2020)

Spent like 10 minutes on the sawtooth site and would easily consider buying any one of those strays at the prices they’re asking. Not a bad looking operation there. Looking forward to hearing about the quality down the road at launch.


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## BlackSG91 (May 7, 2020)

failsafe said:


> Do those amps push air?



They push 1 kHz of air that's cuts through like a knoife!







;>)/


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## spudmunkey (May 7, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Sawtooth is better than Harley Benton, but sounds like they came up with it in a chinese board room.



It's definitely very "try-hard" like an 11-year old trying to name a band something tough, and coming up with "Super Eagle Death Claw of Blood". That said...they did an excellent job with the logo.

The amp, to my ear, sounds a lot like the Monoprice tube amp that i've seen in a number of youtuber "cheapest (blank) on (such-and-such website)" type videos.


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## bostjan (May 7, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Super Eagle Death Claw of Blood


 Dibs if you aren't using that.


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## Alexa run my life (May 7, 2020)

MAB is a great dude, but he is selling this Sawtooth brand like there is no tomorrow. And quite frankly, I've never even heard of them before.


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

failsafe said:


> Do those amps push air?


If it has an fx loop it might be worth something.

Probably a HRD copy. We can hope.


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

Alexa run my life said:


> MAB is a great dude, but he is selling this Sawtooth brand like there is no tomorrow. And quite frankly, I've never even heard of them before.


It might be his version of Chapman guitars.

He probably has a stake in it. If Chapman can order Chinese guitars and put his name on them, anyone can.


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## SDMFVan (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> When you buy a low-end Ibanez/Gio, it is intentionally crippled with bad hardware (bad bridge, tuners, neck without reinforcements, etc.) so that it doesnt outshine the higher models. If the factory handed the workers on the Gio assembly line a lopro trem, told them to put a flame top on it, and take an extra 15 minutes polishing the fretwork, it would probably come out pretty identical to a Prestige.



This notion that the only thing separating bad guitars and good guitars is name brand hardware and a little more "attention to detail" is absurd and insulting to luthiers that have spent their lives honing their craft. It's that kind of thinking that allows companies like Strandberg to sell Chinese guitars for $2,500.


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> This notion that the only thing separating bad guitars and good guitars is name brand hardware and a little more "attention to detail" is absurd and insulting to luthiers that have spent their lives honing their craft. It's that kind of thinking that allows companies like Strandberg to sell Chinese guitars for $2,500.



Large assembly lines automate most of the difficult tasks that luthiers perform.

The GIO assembly line probably has very similar procedures to the Prestige assembly line. On the prestige assembly line, they are using better quality materials. They spend more time on fret dressing. More time and effort in making the finish look nice.

Material quality and attention to detail are the only things separating low and high end guitars. They are constructed the same way.

Techincally, there is no reason that a Chinese luthier could not make a guitar as good as american or japanese. He works for pennies on the dollar so them charging 2500 is a stretch. But whatever.


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## SDMFVan (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Large assembly lines automate most of the difficult tasks that luthiers perform.
> 
> The GIO assembly line probably has very similar procedures to the Prestige assembly line. On the prestige assembly line, they are using better quality materials. They spend more time on fret dressing. More time and effort in making the finish look nice.
> 
> ...



Strongly disagree. The most difficult tasks that luthiers perform can't be replicated by a CNC, and that's precisely what separates okay or good guitars from great ones. Companies with import lines have been working hard to convince consumers that the difference is in the hardware in order to charge higher prices for cheaper guitars, but it's just not the reality.

I'll agree that there's no reason a Chinese luthier could not make a guitar as good as an American or Japanese luthier, except in China there's no market for someone to spend the time and money required to get proper luthiery training so there are few luthiers in the country as a whole and certainly none making any guitars that consumers outside China are buying. Make no mistake that the workers building guitars in factories in China are NOT luthiers, they're just laborers.


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## spudmunkey (May 8, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> Strongly disagree. The most difficult tasks that luthiers perform can't be replicated by a CNC, and that's precisely what separates okay or good guitars from great ones.



Yes, and no. He said "automate", but not necessarily CNC.

If you have one guy at a fret-dressing station, and all they do is fret dressing all-day, every day, for years, and you have people like that at every station, you're simply going to be more eficient and less expensive that paying like 10 people who each built a guitar from end-to-end. You don't need to find people who are experts at everything. If you can train someone on one task, they can excell at it, even if they have no idea how to work any other station.

My dad works in a factory. He's an excellent welder, but isn't an experienced machinist...so he and his team welds all day, every day.

For some reasons, guitars are seen as some sort of unicorn hybrid between technology and precision, and old-world craftsmanship. We know that china can do both on their own, but so far haven't seen their many of these "unicorn" guitars in the US market.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 8, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> in China there's no market for someone to spend the time and money required to get proper luthiery training so there are few luthiers in the country as a whole and certainly none making any guitars that consumers outside China are buying



I wouldn't be so sure of that. The Chinese middle and upper middle classes have been growing for many years now. 

There are a number of Chinese luthiers trying to break the stigma. They just mostly build orchestral strings vs. solid body electrics.

In fact, there are probably more actual luthiers in China than most other countries.



spudmunkey said:


> Yes, and no. He said "automate", but not necessarily CNC.
> 
> If you have one guy at a fret-dressing station, and all they do is fret dressing all-day, every day, for years, and you have people like that at every station, you're simply going to be more eficient and less expensive that paying like 10 people who each built a guitar from end-to-end. You don't need to find people who are experts at everything. If you can train someone on one task, they can excell at it, even if they have no idea how to work any other station.
> 
> ...




Line work is not automation. 

Breaking down the production process into specialized departments or areas isn't just something huge factories do either.


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> Strongly disagree. The most difficult tasks that luthiers perform can't be replicated by a CNC, and that's precisely what separates okay or good guitars from great ones. Companies with import lines have been working hard to convince consumers that the difference is in the hardware in order to charge higher prices for cheaper guitars, but it's just not the reality.
> 
> I'll agree that there's no reason a Chinese luthier could not make a guitar as good as an American or Japanese luthier, except in China there's no market for someone to spend the time and money required to get proper luthiery training so there are few luthiers in the country as a whole and certainly none making any guitars that consumers outside China are buying. Make no mistake that the workers building guitars in factories in China are NOT luthiers, they're just laborers.



What specific tasks require a many year experienced luthier to do correctly that can't be automated?

By automated, I mean all the wood cuts. 

The rest is just assembly, finishing, and fretwork done on an assembly line.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> What specific tasks require a many year experienced luthier to do correctly that can't be automated?
> 
> By automated, I mean all the wood cuts.
> 
> The rest is just assembly, finishing, and fretwork.



Cutting wood is probably the easiest part of building a guitar.

Pretty much everything else takes a decent amount of skill to get right. Sanding isn't too bad either, but that's still done by hand.

Binding and inlay work, even if the channels are guide (not finish) cut for either, is an art unto itself.

Even stupid expensive PLEK machines can't do all the fretwork.

The ”just” is pretty much what makes a guitar. Without that you just have a fancy oar.


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## SDMFVan (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> What specific tasks require a many year experienced luthier to do correctly that can't be automated?
> 
> By automated, I mean all the wood cuts.
> 
> The rest is just assembly, finishing, and fretwork done on an assembly line.



To do "correctly" or to do at a level that would be commensurate with the expected quality of an Ibanez Prestige (to use your example)? To make a guitar that is for all intents and purposes "correct" (ie. it intonates and is playable) not a whole lot. To make one that would be on par quality wise with something from Ibanez Prestige (or J. Craft), PRS, Suhr etc, pretty much everything except the basic wood carving needs to be done by a trained luthier.

EDIT: Max beat me to it.


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## SDMFVan (May 8, 2020)

This video from PRS is a good education on the subject:


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Cutting wood is probably the easiest part of building a guitar.
> 
> Pretty much everything else takes a decent amount of skill to get right. Sanding isn't too bad either, but that's still done by hand.
> 
> ...



China has been making guitars for, what, 20 years now? There must be thousands of skilled workers. Maybe hundreds of thousands.

I don't see anything that they can't do as well as an american.

If they take short cuts building cheap instruments, its just to take less time. Same with materials to contain costs.

I am 100% confident that you could assemble Chinese teams to mass produce Suhr quality instruments. When you add the cost of high quality wood and selection (inc storage), pro hardware, overseas shipping, additional labor, duties, etc, they could produce a Suhr for less. (Note they would be copying established designs and trends so the don't need the same design talent.)

Would anyone buy it? Probably not much of a market for 3K chinese guitars.

Building guitars is not rocket science.


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## SDMFVan (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Would anyone buy it? Probably not much of a market for 3K chinese guitars.
> 
> Building guitars is not rocket science.



No, it's an art form. 

There's already companies selling $3,000 Chinese guitars (Strandberg) and in my experience their quality is on par with other import guitars and not with USA or Japanese made guitars. Using your logic, how can that be?


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> No, it's an art form.
> 
> There's already companies selling $3,000 Chinese guitars (Strandberg) and in my experience their quality is on par with other import guitars and not with USA or Japanese made guitars. Using your logic, how can that be?



It may just be your opinion?

I've not played a suhr, but I'm having a hard time believing there is anything about it that would make it identifyable as higher quality than J Prestiges I've played.

Lower quality from Korea and China is a function of time and cost, not inability.

If a guitar is perfect with no defects, has great fret work, low action, and sounds great, how is a Suhr better than that?

Suhr has a foothold in the geartarist / TGP community, and there is a cachet that comes with a 3K+ custom built instrument. A J pretige is same quality, costs half the price, but is not custom.


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## Viginez (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> Solar is a cool name


but not for a guitar brand


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## Two Panthers (May 8, 2020)

shadowlife said:


> He might be getting ready to record his blues album...


OMG that was so funny to me....not everyone else I know sees it, but it looks like you do - literally, EVERY single artist from MVP/Shrapnel and all the great shredders of the 80’s, either after doing their 10 neo classical shred and then cross over metal albums with a terribly overdramatized operatic frontman, it was finalized with their “blues album”!!!
Lol Richie Kotzen comes to mine first too because that dude was AMAZING, and then he wanted to polish off his perfect metal track record with blues albums...anyway that was very funny man

PS Batio has absolutely perfect technique of a virtuoso - however, what was said was right, hes not a “great musician” in terms of his albums/writing, but you can’t beat Angelo’s technique, maybe you can match it, but you can’t out do his technical

PPS The amps look kinda of awesome, not so much into the guitars, but nice amps


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## MaxOfMetal (May 8, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> China has been making guitars for, what, 20 years now? There must be thousands of skilled workers. Maybe hundreds of thousands.
> 
> I don't see anything that they can't do as well as an american.
> 
> ...



China has been building instruments for thousands of years. 

We're in full agreement that country of origin doesn't matter, we just disagree a little on why/how.



SDMFVan said:


> No, it's an art form.
> 
> There's already companies selling $3,000 Chinese guitars (Strandberg) and in my experience their quality is on par with other import guitars and not with USA or Japanese made guitars. Using your logic, how can that be?



Strandberg is a shitty example. All of their guitars have quality concerns, except for the J Bodens. 

Look at Eastman or the higher end Artcores.


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## Two Panthers (May 8, 2020)

Despite the progress of other countries , especially Indonesia apparently who has become like the “premium” or former “prestige” (something like that, correct me if I’m wrong), I still really think the super luthiers of Japan are the only prices worth over 1.5k....I mean also of course some USA, Australian and European private/tiny luthier companies. But if Asia is the region we’re looking at, and for me it applies to all globally as well, I would only buy a Japanese if a guitar is over $1k.


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## bostjan (May 8, 2020)

I bought a Brian Moore i-guitar back in 2004ish. Beautiful top, excellent green finish, piezo with onboard Roland synth preamp... it called to me right away and I was blown away after picking it up and playing it, then seeing the "Made in China" sticker. I had to sell it later on because I didn't have the room to keep it, and by then I was not really playing sixers.

As for Sawtooth, I'd have to hold one in my hands before I formed an opinion any deeper than how it looks. They look pretty good, but I've seen plenty of guitars look great on websites and not be that great in person- and vice-versa.


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## Two Panthers (May 8, 2020)

bostjan said:


> I bought a Brian Moore i-guitar back in 2004ish. Beautiful top, excellent green finish, piezo with onboard Roland synth preamp... it called to me right away and I was blown away after picking it up and playing it, then seeing the "Made in China" sticker. I had to sell it later on because I didn't have the room to keep it, and by then I was not really playing sixers.
> 
> As for Sawtooth, I'd have to hold one in my hands before I formed an opinion any deeper than how it looks. They look pretty good, but I've seen plenty of guitars look great on websites and not be that great in person- and vice-versa.


I wasn’t aware of those, but that sounds like awesome specs.


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## GoldDragon (May 8, 2020)

bostjan said:


> I bought a Brian Moore i-guitar back in 2004ish. Beautiful top, excellent green finish, piezo with onboard Roland synth preamp... it called to me right away and I was blown away after picking it up and playing it, then seeing the "Made in China" sticker. I had to sell it later on because I didn't have the room to keep it, and by then I was not really playing sixers.
> 
> As for Sawtooth, I'd have to hold one in my hands before I formed an opinion any deeper than how it looks. They look pretty good, but I've seen plenty of guitars look great on websites and not be that great in person- and vice-versa.




If its typical of the quality coming from China, and is equipped with an OFR and costs $450, thats a great deal. Same is true of any other chinese instrument that is not hobbled with bad hardware.

We may never see that Sawtooth superstrat with the virus and international tensions. It doesn't really matter though, there are plenty of other good options.

As an aside, my main guitar over the past 5-6 years has been a MIC Dean. I got it because I didn't have an 24 fret guitars in my small collection.

My more expensive ibbys have stayed on the wall because I was enjoying the thicker neck, the Floyd and the medium jumbo frets.

It was $250 and came with pickups that afaict were JB/59 knockoffs. I replaced them with Dimarzios but honestly it didn't need them.

But it is kinda a throwaway guitar. The problem is that the neck relief is not as gradual as I would like. Action is low enough to shred, but its not perfect. This could easily be fixed with a plek job, but the frets are kinda soft metal and medium jumbos aren't that tall; it really would benefit from a refret first, and I'm not doing that on a $250 guitar. It has almost zero resale value.


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## shadowlife (May 9, 2020)

Two Panthers said:


> OMG that was so funny to me....not everyone else I know sees it, but it looks like you do - literally, EVERY single artist from MVP/Shrapnel and all the great shredders of the 80’s, either after doing their 10 neo classical shred and then cross over metal albums with a terribly overdramatized operatic frontman, it was finalized with their “blues album”!!!
> Lol Richie Kotzen comes to mine first too because that dude was AMAZING, and then he wanted to polish off his perfect metal track record with blues albums...anyway that was very funny man
> 
> PS Batio has absolutely perfect technique of a virtuoso - however, what was said was right, hes not a “great musician” in terms of his albums/writing, but you can’t beat Angelo’s technique, maybe you can match it, but you can’t out do his technical



LOL!
Yeah, someone once said that "the blues is where old shredders go to die", and I've always thought that was hilarious.

MAB strikes me as a guitarist in search of a band- imagine him ripping solos in Megadeth or Anthrax...


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## GoldDragon (May 9, 2020)

shadowlife said:


> LOL!
> Yeah, someone once said that "the blues is where old shredders go to die", and I've always thought that was hilarious.
> 
> MAB strikes me as a guitarist in search of a band- imagine him ripping solos in Megadeth or Anthrax...


If he was born 40 years later, he would be tearing up YouTube and would have one of the top channels.

The problem was his band Nitro was a gimmick band. I don't think they had any major label interest, so they had to find something else. Their singer ran ads in the magazines where he could shatter glass with his voice. And of course MAB did the whole "Speed Kills" instructional thing.

I don't think he had to look / personality to get into those major bands.

Without any label recognition, a band was relegated to local bars and day jobs. MAB was sorta like a prototype of internet guitarists to come. More renowned for teaching and mind blowing skills than he was for any work he did in a band.

His modern day equivalent is probably someone like Andy James.


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## Lord Voldemort (May 9, 2020)

Oh sweet a Chinese guitar debate 

Just wanna say, China is absolutely capable of building as good of guitars as anyone else if they put their minds/time/effort into it, and the idea that good guitar building is some sort of elusive sorcery is probably a mixture of romanticism, marketing and China’s history of making bad guitars. 

I’m sure that my opinion has swayed you all and that this debate is certainly settled as that’s how debates on the internet work


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## ramses (May 9, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> In fact, there are probably more actual luthiers in China than most other countries.



I don't know that we can be sure about that. One concrete goal of the bloody "cultural revolution" was to get rid of Western (influenced) music and instruments — owning a Cello would get you sent to forced labor for life (if you were lucky).

Are 20 years enough to have "more actual luthiers in China than most other countries?" And of elite expertise?

I'm willing to bet that you won't find a single Ervin Somogyi parallel in China ... although I would agree that that is an unfair requirement.


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## Niccho (May 10, 2020)

Looks like any ol' strat looking super strat. Maybe MAB is switching to some of that millennial music.


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## bracky (May 10, 2020)

He’s got Chris Adler playing drums for him.


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## shadowlife (May 10, 2020)

GoldDragon said:


> If he was born 40 years later, he would be tearing up YouTube and would have one of the top channels.
> 
> The problem was his band Nitro was a gimmick band. I don't think they had any major label interest, so they had to find something else. Their singer ran ads in the magazines where he could shatter glass with his voice. And of course MAB did the whole "Speed Kills" instructional thing.
> 
> ...



Funny enough, I actually saw Nitro back in the 90s. They were one of the opening bands for Steve Stevens' Atomic Playboys at a medium sized club on Long Island.
I don't remember much about the show other than it was obvious they were using backing vocal tracks, their set was really short, and when I was talking to MAB afterwards, he said he didn't play the quad guitar because it had recently been stolen!


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## ramses (May 10, 2020)

shadowlife said:


> [...] and when I was talking to MAB afterwards, he said he didn't play the quad guitar because it had recently been stolen!



Why does being a musician must suck so much?


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## Pat (May 16, 2020)




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## Crundles (May 16, 2020)

No opinions on the guitars I just want to say that Michael Angelo actually came to my country a while ago, and I didn't go, because at that time I knew nothing of him, so I still considered him "the fast boring guy" and rarely have I wanted to punch my past self harder than when I think of this.

BTW if anyone doesn't know, he has some really neat stuff on his youtube channel, especially lately - lessons, videos from his workshops and stuff.


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## Musiscience (May 16, 2020)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Oh sweet a Chinese guitar debate
> 
> Just wanna say, China is absolutely capable of building as good of guitars as anyone else if they put their minds/time/effort into it, and the idea that good guitar building is some sort of elusive sorcery is probably a mixture of romanticism, marketing and China’s history of making bad guitars.
> 
> I’m sure that my opinion has swayed you all and that this debate is certainly settled as that’s how debates on the internet work



I'd take an Eastman over a Gibson anytime. Their archtops are really high quality for a very fair price, and built in Beijing. China can make great guitars, but most import brands are more interested in making their cheap line there.

USA factories can also build some terrible guitars. Anyone remembers the Gibson M2? Cheap for a US Gibson, yes, but played like a starterpack strat.


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## Wolfhorsky (May 17, 2020)

As I love the adorable human being MAB is, imagine Him to have a normal, nice haircut.
I know. I will perish in hell.


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## GoldDragon (May 17, 2020)

Pat said:


>




Wow, this is much better than the new Satriani track I heard. This actually has a creative vibe and is full of monster technique!


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## diagrammatiks (May 17, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wouldn't be so sure of that. The Chinese middle and upper middle classes have been growing for many years now.
> 
> There are a number of Chinese luthiers trying to break the stigma. They just mostly build orchestral strings vs. solid body electrics.
> 
> ...




this is literally an argument between crazy people with max trying to hold the line. 

Guitar making isn't an art any more then building a tube amplifier is an art. 
There some parts that require more skill and dedication and there are some parts that can be art like Ron thorn's inlays. but the entire process can be automated as much as you want it to be there.

The metal/erg/headless builders in China right now are pretty much younger guys. They are maybe 70 percent of where they need to be in order to be competitive globally. 

But, the more normal spec builders have been making guitars for 20+ years now. They can build as well as anybody.

That being said it doesn't make any sense for any Chinese builder to try and put out a 3k guitar to compete with a prs or an Anderson. That's an uphill marketing battle that's nonsensical to fight. 

If you know the cap is like 800 bucks and actually most people aren't willing to spend more then 300 on a Chinese guitar then you just build a 300 dollar guitar until some big company is willing to spend money to lift your price ceiling like everyone is doing with Indonesia right now. 

gonna wait for SDMFvan to post 10 more times and Chinese strand bergs which don't even exist anymore magically cost 10,000 dollars each.


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## GoldDragon (May 17, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> this is literally an argument between crazy people with max trying to hold the line.
> 
> Guitar making isn't an art any more then building a tube amplifier is an art.
> There some parts that require more skill and dedication and there are some parts that can be art like Ron thorn's inlays. but the entire process can be automated as much as you want it to be there.
> ...



China has shown an ability to copy almost everything to the same quality as things originated in the west. The only thing they haven't got the knack of is hollywood movies. And cars. And military systems. And probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

But guitars? They got them down.

It must be an exciting time to be young and educated in China. All you have to do is browse the web and find things to copy. Spin up a business. Find an exporter. Profit.

Or even better, go the the factory some western company invested R&D and tooling, and have them build a cheaper version for you to export. Because you don't have to pay the western salaries of the design and marketing teams. IP theft? Fugheddaboutit! PRC encourages it!

(And you don't have to worry about hyperinflation killing your business because China pegs their currency to the dollar. Nice!)

Same business model in the west costs 10x more because of social safety nets and human rights. And rule of law.


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## MaxOfMetal (May 17, 2020)




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