# Matrix 4 & 5



## orb451 (Jan 24, 2011)

Ain't It Cool News: The best in movie, TV, DVD, and comic book news.

Step awaaaaaaaaay from the script-writing Wachowskis... step away... please


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## Razzy (Jan 24, 2011)

The only good Matrix was the first one.


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## 13point9 (Jan 24, 2011)

Wht disturbs me more the the apparent "Hood" script


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## 13point9 (Jan 24, 2011)

EDIT:- oh my days internet will you please stop golfing with me?


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## Razzy (Jan 24, 2011)

13point9 said:


> What disturbs me more the the apparent "Hood" script



You can say THAT again.


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## synrgy (Jan 24, 2011)

*edit* though, I am actually hoping for B&T 3. Wyld Stallyns rules.


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## 13point9 (Jan 24, 2011)

synrgy said:


> *edit* though, I am actually hoping for B&T 3. Wyld Stallyns rules.



yeah but without Rufus?


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 24, 2011)

I really hope Keanu doesn't turn into Nicholas Cage 2.0. He is agood actor, but doesn't choose roles that push him. I thought a Bill and Ted sequel would be cool, something new from the monotone moody character he plays a lot of late. But 'Modern Hood' sounds bad, and the ending of the third Matrix film as fucking awful so I think they should leave it there.


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## Waelstrum (Jan 24, 2011)

I suspect shenanigans, as only someone like the writers of Alien would extend a series of movies so far beyond not only common courtesy but also the life of the main character.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 24, 2011)

Well one of the theories was that the "real world" to Neo and the others was just another layer of the Matrix, kind of like an Inception type deal  So who knows? If that's the case maybe it's somewhat logical for Neo to make a come back.


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## Origin (Jan 24, 2011)

I don't even understand how 2 and 3 were watchable, this doesn't make any sense to me.  Ehn, I'm sure it'll recoup its costs.


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## pink freud (Jan 24, 2011)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Well one of the theories was that the "real world" to Neo and the others was just another layer of the Matrix, kind of like an Inception type deal  So who knows? If that's the case maybe it's somewhat logical for Neo to make a come back.



It would have to be, I'd think, due to Neo pulling an Emperor Palpatine on the Cthulhubots.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 24, 2011)

That means he could totally still nail Trinity.


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## cataclysm_child (Jan 24, 2011)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Well one of the theories was that the "real world" to Neo and the others was just another layer of the Matrix, kind of like an Inception type deal  So who knows? If that's the case maybe it's somewhat logical for Neo to make a come back.



That have already been done. I can't remember the name of the movie though. But it was good


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 24, 2011)

Thats a roundabout way of saying 'it was all a dream' which is the cheapest move in storytelling.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 24, 2011)

I personally loved the trilogy and thought it ruled.

As for the whole "it was all just another layer of the matrix", then i wouldnt believe that anything in the matrix was NOT actually another layer of the matrix.


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 24, 2011)

The ending of the third film was shit. The robots enslaved the whole human race, using them as power but in return givng them a peacful, normal live in the digital realm. A good deal.

Now those people who are freed go on to free more, bringing them from their nice albiet fake lives into a cold, apocalyptic world where resources are limited, the surface is cold and inhospitable and theres a constant threat of murderous machines. Neo comes along, says 'I'll get rid of this dickhead program for you if you free the human race' which is essentially like tech support saying to a compay manager 'I'll fix your pc, if you give me your salary'. Now the machines could quite easily have said 'sure!' and then killed Neo and all freed humans anyway. They're machines, they have no morals or ties to keep promises. But for some reason they decided to keep their word, and lost everything they've built, freeing all humans into an underground world which has been ravaged by war and can barely maintain its current population.


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## orb451 (Jan 24, 2011)

^^^^Or, that "Real World" that people were escaping to, was just another Matrix-like program, or system of control from the machines. For these people, here's the Matrix. It's got everything you need... you live, you work, you fuck, etc...

For everyone else, there's the "Real World" where you fight the machines, hack, rebel, fuck and occasionally throw an underground rave... Pick your poison humans.

Either way, the machines are still in control. And that would explain why Neo has other worldly skills in the "Real" world as well as the Matrix...

Personally, I just hope the movies don't suck. Parts 2 and 3 were pretty terrible as far as I'm concerned. It's like the writers got wrapped up in their own bullshit and couldn't figure out a way through it.


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## synrgy (Jan 24, 2011)

For all the flack that parts 2 and 3 got, I honestly thought they were pretty brilliant. Sure, you can't ever touch the feeling that the first movie leaves you with the first time you see it, but I found that upon repeated viewings the sequels offered more layers that I just didn't catch on the first viewings. By the 2nd or third time I made my way through the trilogy, I had a completely different understanding of the story arc than I had the first time around. 

I found the relationship between Neo and Agent Smith to be really intriguing. There's a lot going on under the surface, there. It's not just a few Dragonball Z-esque fight scenes. They have sort of a yin/yang dynamic. Smith wants out, Neo wants out; Just for completely different reasons. The best part is -- if I understood all the subtle implications correctly -- neither can exist without the other. Toss in some allegory for good measure, and a dash of other character relationships working the same way (Oracle & Architect, for instance) and I think it was all a lot more detailed than it generally gets credit for.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. I love the whole trilogy. I just feel like it's already perfect, and extending the story line into more films just opens up too many opportunities for the writers to fuck up the established canon.

And yes: I'd still like to see B&T 3 even if there's no Rufus. The opportunity for a few new Steve Vai riffs to complement B&T's air guitar is reason enough, for me.


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## 13point9 (Jan 24, 2011)

cataclysm_child said:


> That have already been done. I can't remember the name of the movie though. But it was good



eXistenZ? one of my fav movies of all time, proper mind fuck...

eXistenZ (1999) - IMDb


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## ry_z (Jan 24, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> Thats a roundabout way of saying 'it was all a dream' which is the cheapest move in storytelling.



I think 'it was all a dream...*or was it?*' is cheaper.


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## bostjan (Jan 24, 2011)

I saw them in the cinema. I saw the third one opening night in my town, and people in the theater actually booed the ending. I felt pretty disappointed with the entire third movie. I liked the first one quite a bit, bit I still think that it is over-rated. There were several films that did similar plot devices prior to the Matrix, but they were less well-known.

If they make a fourth film, I think I might pass altogether, unless it gets some rave review from trusted critics.


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 24, 2011)

I have nothing but good things to say about the first film.


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## technomancer (Jan 24, 2011)

cataclysm_child said:


> That have already been done. I can't remember the name of the movie though. But it was good



The 13th Floor, and yes it was indeed pretty cool.

Not sure how I feel about this, but I'd probably go see new movies just to see what they did. I also don't hate the 2nd and 3rd movies as much as other people do either


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## Explorer (Jan 24, 2011)

You guys have mentioned two of the movies I consider as great in the "nature of reality" genre, ExistenZ and 13th Floor. 

One guy who had so many problems and questions about reality that they would inevitably leak into his fiction? Philip K. Dick. "Total Recall," "Blade Runner" and "Imposter" are great. 

Not sci-fi, but "Pan's Labyrinth" has one indication that the other reality is built on solid bedrock. 

----

Going back to topic, I really wanted to like the second and third Matrix films, and have rewatched that trilogy more than once. Perhaps I really fall in love with it... but I doubt it....


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## Misanthropy (Jan 25, 2011)

the should of made it a prequel, so we could see when the machines had taken over and enslaved humanity.


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## 13point9 (Jan 25, 2011)

Misanthropy said:


> the should of made it a prequel, so we could see when the machines had taken over and enslaved humanity.



this would have been a really good idea, unfortunately Keanu confirmed the other 2 movies, therefore it will definitely have Neo in it...


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## pink freud (Jan 25, 2011)

13point9 said:


> this would have been a really good idea, unfortunately Keanu confirmed the other 2 movies, therefore it will definitely have Neo in it...



He could play an earlier version of Neo. There's been a few of them...


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## Meatbucket (Jan 25, 2011)

Misanthropy said:


> the should of made it a prequel, so we could see when the machines had taken over and enslaved humanity.


That's what the Animatrix is.

The Matrix had an amazing concept to it but it wasn't executed very well in the latter movies. I'm 100% honest when I say I'm curious to see which direction they take this movie seeing as [SPOILER ALERT] Neo, Agent Smith and Trinity are dead, most of Zion is destroyed and the machines are defeated. Maybe some sort of rebuilding effort? Or maybe they will merge the series with Terminator and John Conner will take over in Neo's place.


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## Origin (Jan 25, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> The ending of the third film was shit. The robots enslaved the whole human race, using them as power but in return givng them a peacful, normal live in the digital realm. A good deal.
> 
> Now those people who are freed go on to free more, bringing them from their nice albiet fake lives into a cold, apocalyptic world where resources are limited, the surface is cold and inhospitable and theres a constant threat of murderous machines. Neo comes along, says 'I'll get rid of this dickhead program for you if you free the human race' which is essentially like tech support saying to a compay manager 'I'll fix your pc, if you give me your salary'. Now the machines could quite easily have said 'sure!' and then killed Neo and all freed humans anyway. They're machines, they have no morals or ties to keep promises. But for some reason they decided to keep their word, and lost everything they've built, freeing all humans into an underground world which has been ravaged by war and can barely maintain its current population.



I don't know whether you got that off Cracked or just came to the same conclusion.  But it's a good point.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 25, 2011)

I liked both sequels, but only if they're watched back to back. I remember seeing them at the movies and being less than impressed, but once i could watch them together in a single [extremely long] sitting, I enjoyed them loads more.

That said, I can't see this venture leading to anything good...


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 25, 2011)

Origin said:


> I don't know whether you got that off Cracked or just came to the same conclusion.  But it's a good point.


 
Nah I didn't rip that from anywhere.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 25, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> The ending of the third film was shit. The robots enslaved the whole human race, using them as power but in return givng them a peacful, normal live in the digital realm. A good deal.
> 
> Now those people who are freed go on to free more, bringing them from their nice albiet fake lives into a cold, apocalyptic world where resources are limited, the surface is cold and inhospitable and theres a constant threat of murderous machines. Neo comes along, says 'I'll get rid of this dickhead program for you if you free the human race' which is essentially like tech support saying to a compay manager 'I'll fix your pc, if you give me your salary'. Now the machines could quite easily have said 'sure!' and then killed Neo and all freed humans anyway. They're machines, they have no morals or ties to keep promises. But for some reason they decided to keep their word, and lost everything they've built, freeing all humans into an underground world which has been ravaged by war and can barely maintain its current population.



Well, heres my stab at a response. Machines are logical. 1's and 0's. I dont think they lie. Its a human concept. Perhapse the argument would be that the machines would honor their deal because they cant lie.


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## Daemoniac (Jan 25, 2011)

^ Or that it was logical to accept his deal because they couldn't beat it.

Machines also can't scheme and backstab, if they're offered a deal they need, the logic is to accept the deal, not accept it then go back on it.


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## orb451 (Jan 25, 2011)

What you guys are forgetting, or overlooking, is what is alluded to by the Oracle at one point or another. That is the idea of "programs hacking programs". Programs going "rogue". Programs doing their "own" thing, or what "they're not supposed to".

So in that sense, she's alluding to some form of sentience on the machine and/or program's behalf. That they are *not* just 1's and 0's. They, or their creations, have a form of self awareness and free-will. If not, *no* programs would ever go rogue. Agent Smith wouldn't be acting out of his own best interests, he'd be just doing what he's programmed to do.

In that respect the machines and humans have more in common than just a symbiotic relationship of sorts. 

The Matrix was a brilliant idea that got wasted when they got lost in effects and uneven storytelling. The Animatrix was excellent individually and as a whole. The original story was a really cool concept, I don't care if it wasn't original or has been done several times in other movies, it was still well done... but then ruined unfortunately. And if the real world was just another layer of control from the machines (which makes sense) than Neo et al, are not dead or lost.

Besides, if he has that much control in the Matrix and the real world, who's to say he can't just respawn again? Wasn't that the 6th or 7th iteration (according to the Architect)?


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## technomancer (Jan 25, 2011)

Just a note, this is apparently complete bullshit, the whole story was made up

Studio Dismisses Matrix Sequels Rumor as &#8216;Bunk&#8217; | Underwire | Wired.com


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## 13point9 (Jan 25, 2011)

technomancer said:


> Just a note, this is apparently complete bullshit, the whole story was made up
> 
> Studio Dismisses Matrix Sequels Rumor as Bunk | Underwire | Wired.com



that still doesn't stop the hood being written though  hahaha


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## groph (Jan 25, 2011)

Can anyone come up with a series of movies that went past two sequels (or prequels) that remained good?

Yes, I know about Star Wars. The effects and action in the prequels are awesome, but the scientific clarification of the Force, introduction of bureaucracy and politics, and Hayden Christianssen made me go NNNNNOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOoOoOooOoo when I watched them.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 25, 2011)

orb451 said:


> What you guys are forgetting, or overlooking, is what is alluded to by the Oracle at one point or another. That is the idea of "programs hacking programs". Programs going "rogue". Programs doing their "own" thing, or what "they're not supposed to".
> 
> So in that sense, she's alluding to some form of sentience on the machine and/or program's behalf. That they are *not* just 1's and 0's. They, or their creations, have a form of self awareness and free-will. If not, *no* programs would ever go rogue. Agent Smith wouldn't be acting out of his own best interests, he'd be just doing what he's programmed to do.
> 
> ...



what you are referanceing with the oracle is how you interpret it, but you could disect that info into other interpretations aswell. its very vague


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 25, 2011)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Well, heres my stab at a response. Machines are logical. 1's and 0's. I dont think they lie. Its a human concept. Perhapse the argument would be that the machines would honor their deal because they cant lie.


 


Demoniac said:


> ^ Or that it was logical to accept his deal because they couldn't beat it.
> 
> Machines also can't scheme and backstab, if they're offered a deal they need, the logic is to accept the deal, not accept it then go back on it.


 
They could beat it, by getting him to do what they want and then continuing with their plan anyway. The machines ultimately want to achieve their end goal of dominating the human race and continuing the existence of the Matrix, both of with are jeopardised with the existence of the agent and Neo. The machine's sole objective is to remove the agent and Neo as threats. How they go about that is irrelevant, because the machine cares only about completing it's own objective. They aren't designed to care about the needs of others; honouring their deal gives them no long term benefit. Killing Neo and the Humans would've been a more efficient way of completing their objective as peace holds no value for a machine, especially seeing as they hold all the cards. The machines are in complete control, and logic should dictate that they want to achieve their primary objective, treachery is a mere tool to do so. They can scheme and backstab, because if they couldn't then agents couldn't exist (they are designed to remove any rogue programs, and stop the true nature of the Matrix being known to the population. Some might call this a scheme).


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Jan 25, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> They could beat it, by getting him to do what they want and then continuing with their plan anyway. The machines ultimately want to achieve their end goal of dominating the human race and continuing the existence of the Matrix, both of with are jeopardised with the existence of the agent and Neo. The machine's sole objective is to remove the agent and Neo as threats. How they go about that is irrelevant, because the machine cares only about completing it's own objective. They aren't designed to care about the needs of others; honouring their deal gives them no long term benefit. Killing Neo and the Humans would've been a more efficient way of completing their objective as peace holds no value for a machine, especially seeing as they hold all the cards. The machines are in complete control, and logic should dictate that they want to achieve their primary objective, treachery is a mere tool to do so. They can scheme and backstab, because if they couldn't then agents couldn't exist (they are designed to remove any rogue programs, and stop the true nature of the Matrix being known to the population. Some might call this a scheme).



Obviously this is hypothetical, but, perhapse they dont have the capacity to scheme and backstab. They are programs. When you write a computer program to spell check and it encounters a word it doesnt know, the program doesnt lie to you. It just doesnt have the capacity to deal with it. So it doesnt.
You just said programs have no use for peace. Well if a objective like dominating is capable by them, then i would assume that the capacity for peace would aswell.

If smith was going to off the machines, and they needed neo's help then logic would dictate that they would assume some sort of existance would trump NO existance. So they made the deal.


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## Explorer (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm with VampireGenocide on this one.



Demoniac said:


> ^ Or that it was logical to accept his deal because they couldn't beat it.
> 
> Machines also can't scheme and backstab, if they're offered a deal they need, the logic is to accept the deal, not accept it then go back on it.



If accepting the deal would give one a reprieve from attack, enough so that the machines could rebuild and then annihilate the free humans, that would be the logical choice, right? To agree to the deal in order to buy time? 

----

For those arguing that the machines would stay true to their programming... that would mean the humans originally programmed the machines to start using humans as power sources. I would instead assume that the programming could be altered. 

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From the discussion between Neo and the Architect, it was my impression that an Anomaly would arise after so many generations... but there was no implication that the new Anomaly would have any knowledge/memories from the previous Anomaly. It was just a result of the parameters of the Matrix. 

Could the Architect and other programs have known that Thomas Anderson was the potential Anomaly? Could they have deliberately brought about the conditions which led to Anderson having the sartori which allowed his physical brain to perceive the Matrix as only a dataflow, with no connection to his physical body? Could that have been planned because it was known that destroying the current incarnation of Babylon, and having a fresh group of free humans, led by the current Anomaly, was necessary to refresh the interior of the Matrix, in order to ensure the survival of the Machine race? 

Let's posit the existence of the Gardener. The Gardener doesn't necessarily care about the outcome, but is instead most interested in the probability trees both inside and outside the Matrix. The Gardener will freely share information, but has too much information to share, and other beings (human or machine) can only imperfectly understand the data and the implications.

Now, imagine the Oracle is somehow an imperfect port to the dataflow of the Gardener, and the Architect has access to other parts of the Gardener. Both the Oracle and the Architect have their own motivations, but the Gardener is the one who tends the probability trees, and tells both the Oracle and the Architect what will result from certain choices... within the limits of the understandings of both the Oracle and the Architect. 

Or, better yet... no one is aware of the Gardener, but the Gardener wants to preserve its own existence, and subtly uses the Butterfly Effect to preserve itself. 

Now *that* might be worth watching, to see how it would develop.


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## vampiregenocide (Jan 26, 2011)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> Obviously this is hypothetical, but, perhapse they dont have the capacity to scheme and backstab. They are programs. When you write a computer program to spell check and it encounters a word it doesnt know, the program doesnt lie to you. It just doesnt have the capacity to deal with it. So it doesnt.
> You just said programs have no use for peace. Well if a objective like dominating is capable by them, then i would assume that the capacity for peace would aswell.
> 
> If smith was going to off the machines, and they needed neo's help then logic would dictate that they would assume some sort of existance would trump NO existance. So they made the deal.


 
Like I said, the very existence of the Matrix proves they can scheme and backstab. They turned around on their creators, and enslaved them in an artificial world, giving them false digital lives. This is a lie of huge proportions, and if robots can lie then they can scheme.

You've also got to remember that these aren't just programs, they are seed A.Is, highly intelligent, selfimaintaining machines (this is the stage predicted in 'the singularity' where the seed A.I gives birth to a new breed of machine that realises it no longer 'needs' humans). Given the advanced nature of these machines, its unlikely they would work on such a simple, linear pattern that current computing technology does. Also, their processing power would be immense, and would have to be in order to create and maintain the Matrix as well as the machine city.

Now regarding peace, a machine only cares about completing its objective, so if peace aids that objective in the longrun then yes it would be beneficial. However, in this instance, other than getting rid of Smith, peace stops the machines from winning a war they could quite easily win. Theres nothing to stop them from lying to Neo and continuing with the main objective. The only reason they keep their deal is some form of 'morality', as after killing Smith, the weakened Neo nor the remaining humans hold no threat to the machines other than freeing more humans, which the machines decide to do also. The deal is balanced far more in favour of the humans.

As for having no existence, they were in no threat from the humans, they didn't _need_ to back off. The only people who could threaten them were Neo and Smith, both of whom end up dying in battle and therefore no longer present a threat. At this point, the machines could easily go back on their word and achieve their objective of killing the humans, as that is what machines do, complete objectives by any means. Nothing else would stop them. But they keep their word, implying they have a sense of respect and morality which doesn't make sense.

Woah. /Keanu


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## leandroab (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm not gonna lie. Matrix in (a properly done) 3D would fucking rule...


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## op1e (Jan 26, 2011)

I cant defend the 3rd movie, but I like the 2nd one. At least the 1st half of it. Come on, the Twins and the freeway scene! And the first fight with "multiplicity" Agent Smith after seeing the Oracle.


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