# The world is Ruined



## TotallyBr00tal

Give specific examples of how our current President has ruined the World, cause I don't understand this.


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## Metal Ken

check out the current exchange rates


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## Stitch

@ exchange rates.


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## Jongpil Yun

Falling dollar, rising oil prices, subprime mortgages, global warming, war in Iraq, Afghanistan, terrible relations with most of the middle east, disgustingly cozy relations with Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo & the suspension of habeas corpus, budget deficit, healthcare inadequacy, slashing the budget of sciences, his ridiculous tax cuts at the start of his term, corruption, alliance with big business, abuse of presidential power, and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

Oh yeah, and he censors any information coming out of the EPA, fish & wildlife, etc. that he doesn't like.

IMO Andrew Johnson and Buchanan give him a run for his money though.

The greatest? Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt of course. I might add Polk simply because he was able to steal 1/3 of Mexico for us. Way to go, dude.


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## Metal Ken

You forgot to mention the fact that george bush is using tax $$ for religious institutions.


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## TotallyBr00tal

Jongpil Yun said:


> Falling dollar, rising oil prices, subprime mortgages, global warming, war in Iraq, Afghanistan, terrible relations with most of the middle east, disgustingly cozy relations with Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo & the suspension of habeas corpus, budget deficit, healthcare inadequacy, slashing the budget of sciences, his ridiculous tax cuts at the start of his term, corruption, alliance with big business, abuse of presidential power, and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
> 
> IMO Andrew Johnson and Buchanan give him a run for his money though.
> 
> The greatest? Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt of course. I might add Polk simply because he was able to steal 1/3 of Mexico for us. Way to go, dude.



Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.



Metal Ken said:


> You forgot to mention the fact that george bush is using tax $$ for religious institutions.



I Don't know if this is true but at the same time these religous institutions do a lot of good for their local communities such as providing food for the poor, clothing donations, helping with education, housing projects, scholarships for colleges and I could go on here, so thats a bad thing and after all this is "One Nation Under GOD"


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## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I Don't know if this is true but at the same time these religous institutions do a lot of good for their local communities such as providing food for the poor, clothing donations, helping with education, housing projects, scholarships for colleges and I could go on here, so thats a bad thing and after all this is "One Nation Under GOD"



They do. But they should be kept seperate from the government. I dont want my money funding christian organizations who preach ignorance on things like sexual education.


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## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.



Dollar was rising before bush got elected. Housing bubble burst in 2004/5. Bush invaded iraq and afghanistan, and started guantanamo. The only thing he might not be directly responsible for in that list is higher oil prices.


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## Stitch

...but you could certainly look to him as to why the rise in prices has hit the US so hard.


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## Metal Ken

Stitch said:


> ...but you could certainly look to him as to why the rise in prices has hit the US so hard.



Which dumbfounds me considering his ties with saudi arabia and our assraping of iraq. If anything, i should be paying 25 cents a gallon by now.


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## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.



Which ones? And his abuse of power? Please, if you don't know, you need to do some reading. His ridiculous "signing statements", his wiretapping program, rampant cronyism, hell, there's probably a lot more I can't remember or simply don't know about. No one since Lincoln (or maybe FDR) has grabbed so much power as president, and Lincoln had a damn good reason. And, he _went to congress to ask for the *temporary* suspension of habeas corpus, with a well defined ending point._



> I Don't know if this is true but at the same time these religous institutions do a lot of good for their local communities such as providing food for the poor, clothing donations, helping with education, housing projects, scholarships for colleges and I could go on here, so thats a bad thing and after all this is "One Nation Under GOD"



Secular institutions do just as good a job, and in the case of a lot of things like oh say, sexual education, much better. And I'll have you know that "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance (a disgusting habit anyways, I think) during the red scare in the '50s, as was "In God We Trust" on the dollar, which replaced "e pluribus unum". You're standing on shaky ground.This nation was not founded in God's name, it was founded in the name of liberty.


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## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.



Based on cherry-picked intel. provided by the White House.


As for abuse of power; I'll start with the domestic spying program and work from there.


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## TotallyBr00tal

Jongpil Yun said:


> Which ones? And his abuse of power? Please, if you don't know, you need to do some reading. His ridiculous "signing statements", his wiretapping program, rampant cronyism, hell, there's probably a lot more I can't remember or simply don't know about. No one since Lincoln (or maybe FDR) has grabbed so much power as president, and Lincoln had a damn good reason. And, he _went to congress to ask for the *temporary* suspension of habeas corpus, with a well defined ending point._
> 
> 
> 
> Secular institutions do just as good a job, and in the case of a lot of things like oh say, sexual education, much better. And I'll have you know that "one nation under god" was added to the pledge of allegiance (a disgusting habit anyways, I think) during the red scare in the '50s, as was "In God We Trust" on the dollar, which replaced "e pluribus unum". You're standing on shaky ground.This nation was not founded in God's name, it was founded in the name of liberty.



Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas. As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.


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## ohio_eric

I wouldn't say Bush has ruined the world so much because most of it now just fears or laughs at us. What Bush has done is fuck up our standing in the world. 

Once America was the world's last superpower. We had a strong economy, we were looked as strong moral nation who inspired oppresed people to fight for freedom. 

Now we're seen as thugs who invade nations without provokation and torture our prisoners and deny them basic human rights. 

Our once strong economy is now in shambles. The dollar is falling. Bush has borrowed over a trillion dollars from foreign sources which is more than the previous 42 presidents combined.

This war has crippled our military and killed over 3800 Americans and wounded over 25000 more and killed God only knows how many Iraqis for no good reason. 

Bush is easily the worst president ever and will probably be viewed as one of the worst world leaders ever.


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## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly.



Many of them were deists. Many at times espoused what amounted to atheistic views, but at the time, it was common practice to ally yourself with the church regardless of whether you believed it or not. Look at how many people today claim to be Christian but probably don't even give a damn or go to church.



> As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas.



The pledge of allegiance always struck me as the kind of blind patriotism and jingoistic brainwashing that makes it so easy to keep all the trappings of patriotism with none of the substance. IMO, it's something you should do once, at 18+. Think of how much significance it has to the majority of people. Hell, think of how many people think it's "invisible, under god". You want to show you love your country? Do what's best for it, instead of buying magnetic ribbons to throw on your car and hanging a 20 foot flag. Educate yourself and vote.



> As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.



Oh forgive his fascist tendencies, Allah, for he knows not what he says.

I think I should elaborate here.

Will the wiretapping shit save lives? Probably. Will torturing people at gitmo to extract information and confessions save lives? Probably. Do I give a damn? No. Freedom, transparency, and liberty are _what we stand for_. If we abandon those things for the pretense of safety, we have lost what it means to be America.



Benjamin Franklin said:


> "Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."





Talib Kweli said:


> Those who would trade in their freedom for their protection deserve neither.


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## TotallyBr00tal

ohio_eric said:


> I wouldn't say Bush has ruined the world so much because most of it now just fears or laughs at us. What Bush has done is fuck up our standing in the world.
> 
> Once America was the world's last superpower. We had a strong economy, we were looked as strong moral nation who inspired oppresed people to fight for freedom.
> 
> Now we're seen as thugs who invade nations without provokation and torture our prisoners and deny them basic human rights.
> 
> Our once strong economy is now in shambles. The dollar is falling. Bush has borrowed over a trillion dollars from foreign sources which is more than the previous 42 presidents combined.
> 
> This war has crippled our military and killed over 3800 Americans and wounded over 25000 more and killed God only knows how many Iraqis for no good reason.
> 
> Bush is easily the worst president ever and will probably be viewed as one of the worst world leaders ever.


torture prisoners, what about the terrorists cutting prisoners heads off and filming it thats not bad huh wow the U.S. is so bad man. Our country has slowly become weak because of sissy liberal idiots like you twisting peoples minds with foolish ideals.


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## garcia3441

ohio_eric said:


> Now we're seen as thugs who invade nations without provocation and torture our prisoners and deny them basic human rights.



As an aside after WW2 Japanese guards who waterboarded US POWs were tried as war criminals.


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## Stitch

Excellent! So we should start doing what the East that you despise so much does?


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## TotallyBr00tal

Jongpil Yun said:


> Many of them were deists. Many at times espoused what amounted to atheistic views, but at the time, it was common practice to ally yourself with the church regardless of whether you believed it or not. Look at how many people today claim to be Christian but probably don't even give a damn or go to church.
> 
> 
> 
> The pledge of allegiance always struck me as the kind of blind patriotism and jingoistic brainwashing that makes it so easy to keep all the trappings of patriotism with none of the substance. IMO, it's something you should do once, at 18+. Think of how much significance it has to the majority of people. Hell, think of how many people think it's "invisible, under god". You want to show you love your country? Do what's best for it, instead of buying magnetic ribbons to throw on your car and hanging a 20 foot flag. Educate yourself and vote.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh forgive his fascist tendencies, Allah, for he knows not what he says.
> 
> I think I should elaborate here.
> 
> Will the wiretapping shit save lives? Probably. Will torturing people at gitmo to extract information and confessions save lives? Probably. Do I give a damn? No. Freedom, transparency, and liberty are _what we stand for_. If we abandon those things for the pretense of safety, we have lost what it means to be America.



Okay so basically sit back don't do anything and let our enemies kill us and destroy our country, great grand wonderful, you are the ultimate liberal wacko that is ruining this country.


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## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas.



You know Thomas Jefferson? the guy who wrote the declaration of independence?
Know what he said about Christianity?

"Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.
-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.
-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

George Washgington?
"We have abundant reason to rejoice that in this Land the light of truth and reason has triumphed over the power of bigotry and superstition ... In this enlightened Age and in this Land of equal liberty it is our boast, that a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest Offices that are known in the United States."

Ben franklin?
"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life I absented myself from Christian assemblies."

-- Benjamin Franklin



TotallyBr00tal said:


> As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.



Like henry rollins said:

"So to question authority is to be unpatriotic, unamerican and in league with terrorists worldwide? FUCK YOU!".


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## Jason

TotallyBr00tal said:


> torture prisoners, what about the terrorists cutting prisoners heads off and filming it thats not bad huh wow the U.S. is so bad man. Our country has slowly become weak because of sissy liberal idiots like you twisting peoples minds with foolish ideals.



Dude seriously back off the name calling  This isn't that type of forum, Keep it civil.

Just cause terrorist chop of peoples heads we should stoop to there levels and fuck with people?


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## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> torture prisoners, what about the terrorists cutting prisoners heads off and filming it thats not bad huh wow the U.S. is so bad man. Our country has slowly become weak because of sissy liberal idiots like you twisting peoples minds with foolish ideals.



Terrorists arent a government. Those terrorists should be tried on crimes against humanity right besides our president.


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## JJ Rodriguez

You are so ignorant and blindly patriotic it's almost unreal.


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## Stitch

The phrase 'full of vinegar' springs to mind.

Ken taught me it, now that I think about it.


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## garcia3441

Bush v. Constitution... Again


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## ohio_eric

TotallyBr00tal said:


> torture prisoners, what about the terrorists cutting prisoners heads off and filming it thats not bad huh wow the U.S. is so bad man. Our country has slowly become weak because of sissy liberal idiots like you twisting peoples minds with foolish ideals.



Oh goodness gracious young TotallyBr00tal has resorted to name calling and other such naughty tactics. How ever shall I respond? What ever shall I do? 

Shall I resort to name calling? A sissified idiot such as myself probably shouldn't encourage confrontation now should I? 

So instead of silly tactics like name calling I shall respond to young TotallyBr00tal's attack with the best weapon I have, the truth. 

First, now maybe you remember this from first grade or so, but just because someone else does something doesn't mean that it's ok for us to do it. Sometimes you have to take the moral high ground. Sometimes you have to rise above your enemies and treat them humanely because it is the right thing to do. Just because waterboarding isn't as bad as beheading people doesn't make it right and doesn't give anyone permission to do it. 

Here's another thing, torture doesn't work. Despite what you may see on the TV torture sucks as an intelligence gathering tool. People will say anything you want to hear if you torture them long enough. I have yet to read a single assessment of torture from someone without a political slant that endorses it as a means of intelligence gathering. 

Finally calling people names marks you as have no sound basis for anything you're trying to prove. So you resort to this line of if you won't kick ass for your flag you're a pussy. It's just a pointless way to think and a dangerous one around here because it will get you banned.


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## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Okay so basically sit back don't do anything and let our enemies kill us and destroy our country, great grand wonderful, you are the ultimate liberal wacko that is ruining this country.



To give your life is the greatest sacrifice. Apparently it's not one you're willing to make. Die in the name of freedom. You're so patriotic, why don't you join the military. Not 18? Lie to the recruiters. See you in Iraqistan.

Besides, do you honestly think that the islamic fascists could ever destroy America? Do you really think they could even do more than dent us? We absolutely crushed Iraq in days. 3000 people died on 9/11. That's a pinprick. If we wanted to, we could grind Iran, Isreal, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc, under our heel before they realized that their major cities had been nuked. But we don't. We don't need to, and it's against our ethic. America is the behemoth that can shrug that kind of thing off and keep going about the business of being the world's sole superpower. That's what would _really_ show the Al Qaeda and Taliban dumbasses. Not our stupid underfunded and understaffed invasion.

If I were fatally wounded by a terrorist and Bush visited me on my deathbed pledging to compromise our freedoms and ideals, the very things that make this country great, to chase down a few dumbshit extremists running around the desert, my last words would be, "fuck you you fascist asshole."


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## BigM555

ohio_eric said:


> A sissified *liberal* idiot such as myself probably shouldn't encourage confrontation now should I?



There, fixed that for ya.


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## noodles

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas. As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.



Hmm, where to begin. <cracks knuckles>


The founding fathers of this country were predominantly Deist. I provided a link, since the entry on Conservapedia is inaccurate.
The pledge is so blatantly, disgustingly pro-nationalism to the point of almost scaring me. Forcing kids to stand and blindly recite it is the sort of things they do in China and North Korea. Our country was founded by men who most identified with their home states, and felt that a powerful central government was the path to tyranny.
Ideas that are liberal are not automatically retarded. Why do you think that everyone thinking and acting exactly the same is a good idea? Next thing you'll be telling me is that the problem with the middle east is that they're Arabs and therefore inferior to the rest of us humans.
Yes, I do have things to hide. They're none of your fucking business. They're none of the fucking government's business. Do you think we should quarter troops for the military, too? Have you actually ever _read_ the Constitution?
I'd be less worried about the planes and more worried about the attack on our civil liberties, bro. "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." --Ben Franklin


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## noodles

Jongpil Yun said:


> Besides, do you honestly think that the islamic fascists could ever destroy America? Do you really think they could even do more than dent us? We absolutely crushed Iraq in days. 3000 people died on 9/11. That's a pinprick. If we wanted to, we could grind Iran, Isreal, Syria, Jordan, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc, under our heel before they realized that their major cities had been nuked. But we don't. We don't need to, and it's against our ethic. America is the behemoth that can shrug that kind of thing off and keep going about the business of being the world's sole superpower. That's what would _really_ show the Al Qaeda and Taliban dumbasses. Not our stupid underfunded and understaffed invasion.




Thank you. I generally try not to argue the point that 9/11 was nothing in the scheme of things, since I'm afraid of pissing off everyone in the near vicinity. Excellent post.


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## Zepp88

^ 

Also, these kind of statements made by the thread starter would sit better at Conspiracy Theory, UFO, and Alternative Topics

We don't insult and degrade each other here.


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## BigM555

noodles said:


> "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." --Ben Franklin



 

I was going to post that earlier but thought it would be too cliche.


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## Jongpil Yun

noodles said:


> The pledge is so blatantly, disgustingly pro-nationalism to the point of almost scaring me. Forcing kids to stand and blindly recite it is the sort of things they do in China and North Korea. Our country was founded by men who most identified with their home states, and felt that a powerful central government was the path to tyranny.



Oui, after all, it is the "United States of America". Sit and think about that name for a second.


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## Zepp88

Jongpil Yun said:


> Oui, after all, it is the "United States of America". Sit and think about that name for a second.



States that were bound together for a common cause, not to lord over each other.


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## JJ Rodriguez

noodles said:


> Hmm, where to begin. <cracks knuckles>
> 
> 
> The founding fathers of this country were predominantly Deist. I provided a link, since the entry on Conservapedia is inaccurate.
> The pledge is so blatantly, disgustingly pro-nationalism to the point of almost scaring me. Forcing kids to stand and blindly recite it is the sort of things they do in China and North Korea. Our country was founded by men who most identified with their home states, and felt that a powerful central government was the path to tyranny.
> Ideas that are liberal are not automatically retarded. Why do you think that everyone thinking and acting exactly the same is a good idea? Next thing you'll be telling me is that the problem with the middle east is that they're Arabs and therefore inferior to the rest of us humans.
> Yes, I do have things to hide. They're none of your fucking business. They're none of the fucking government's business. Do you think we should quarter troops for the military, too? Have you actually ever _read_ the Constitution?
> I'd be less worried about the planes and more worried about the attack on our civil liberties, bro. "He who would trade liberty for some temporary security, deserves neither liberty nor security." --Ben Franklin



...That's all you came up with? I figured you would be typing for days and have a several hundred page document  I think if you look through this section of the forum totallybr00tal you'll find more than enough reasons. I mean if the shit that he's doing doesn't bug you in the slightest, then you're really no better than any of the Islam extremists. They too were indoctrinated to follow exactly what their government told them. I mean I'm from fucking Canada, and I live in my own bubble of a world, yet I hear enough (generally through this site) to know that GWB is bad fucking shit. And they provide links, sometimes to the official press releases of the white house, so it's not just liberal propaganda. And there are people on here who have argued their non liberal beliefs A LOT fucking better than you. You just keep resorting to name calling, and calling everything liberal nonsense, without actually backing up your statements with any actual information, or citing ANY sources at all.


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## noodles

JJ Rodriguez said:


> ...That's all you came up with? I figured you would be typing for days and have a several hundred page document



It's late and I'm drinking.


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## ohio_eric

JJ Rodriguez said:


> That's all you came up with? I figured you would be typing for days and have a several hundred page document





As far as the Pledge of Blind Allegiance goes I tend to side with Carl Sagan who thought we ought pledge allegiance to the Constitution not the flag. After all it is the Constitution that makes us what we are as a nation. Well at least it did until Bush wiped his ass with it but I digress.


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## El Caco

I don't think the world is ruined yet but a lot of damage has been done.

Freedom is the ability to do what you want when you want, with freedom there should be accountability. Bush has led the world in removing freedom from it's citizens.

If a man dictates what you can and cannot do and monitors your every move, you are not free and he is a dictator. It can also be said that he does not trust you and believes you are not intelligent enough to make your own decisions.

By all means a responsible leader should protect his borders but he should not punish his own people for the crimes of others.

Any man who is unable to keep his own home in order has no right to tell another how to keep his house in order, yet bush insists on doing so.

Bush has ignored the cries of some when there is nothing in it for him and instead gone for targets against massive opposition from his own people and allies.

A terrorist is one who's actions create terror, for me no man has created more terror in recent times than Bush.

No country has a greater impact on the environment than the U.S. The leaders of the country must assume responsibility for the impact their nation has on the Earth. Under the current U.S. administration things have only become worse.

To put it simply the quality of life now and the prospect for future generations is lower now than it was when Bush came to power. No one has been more responsible for this than Bush, his impact has not been confined to the nation he governs, it is global.


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## BigM555

JJ Rodriguez said:


> ................And there are people on here who have argued their non liberal beliefs A LOT fucking better than you. You just keep resorting to name calling, and calling everything liberal nonsense, without actually backing up your statements with any actual information, or citing ANY sources at all.



Holy shit crew, mark your calendars, JJ had a serious post! You okay dude? 







On a side note perhaps JBroll will take the young padawan into his tutelage.


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## JJ Rodriguez

BigM555 said:


> Holy shit crew, mark your calendars, JJ had a serious post! You okay dude?



It happens occasionally. Blind patriotism and this attitude REALLY rubs me the wrong way. This is the attitude that gives the US a bad name and ss.org is usually a shining beacon of the fact that not all US citizens are like that


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## Jongpil Yun

JJ Rodriguez said:


> It happens occasionally. Blind patriotism and this attitude REALLY rubs me the wrong way. This is the attitude that gives the US a bad name and ss.org is usually a shining beacon of the fact that not all US citizens are like that



AMERICA! FUCK YEAH!


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## TotallyBr00tal

JJ Rodriguez said:


> ...That's all you came up with? I figured you would be typing for days and have a several hundred page document  I think if you look through this section of the forum totallybr00tal you'll find more than enough reasons. I mean if the shit that he's doing doesn't bug you in the slightest, then you're really no better than any of the Islam extremists. They too were indoctrinated to follow exactly what their government told them. I mean I'm from fucking Canada, and I live in my own bubble of a world, yet I hear enough (generally through this site) to know that GWB is bad fucking shit. And they provide links, sometimes to the official press releases of the white house, so it's not just liberal propaganda. And there are people on here who have argued their non liberal beliefs A LOT fucking better than you. You just keep resorting to name calling, and calling everything liberal nonsense, without actually backing up your statements with any actual information, or citing ANY sources at all.


I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.


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## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.



Blind Patriotism


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## garcia3441

Blind and reckless patriotism is dangerous for our country and world peace




> # Patriotism is the passion of fools and the most foolish of passions.
> 
> # At the bottom of all patriotism is war: that is why I am no patriot.
> 
> # Patriotism is a kind of religion: it is the egg from which wars are hatched.
> 
> # Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
> 
> # Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
> 
> # Patriotism has become a mere national assertion, a sentimentality of flag cheering with no constructive duties.
> 
> # Patriotism is as fierce as a fever, pitiless as the grave, blind as a stone and irrational as a headless man.
> 
> # Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.
> 
> # True patriotism doesn't exclude an understanding of the patriotism of others.
> 
> # Patriotism may be defined as a sense of partisan solidarity in respect of prestige.
> 
> # No other factor in history, not even religion, has produced so many wars as has the clash of national egotisms sanctified by the name of patriotism.
> 
> # The Athenian democracy suffered much from that narrowness of patriotism which is the ruin of all nations.
> 
> # When a dog barks at the moon, then it is religion; but when he barks at strangers, it is patriotism.
> 
> # Many studies have discovered a close link between prejudices and patriotism&#8230;extreme bigots are almost always super-patriots


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## Zepp88

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.



You're right. Patriotism is dying in this country, you know why?


There's less and less to be proud of.


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## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end



Translation: I _cant_ respond with resources and links that provide factual, non bias data. 



TotallyBr00tal said:


> but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.



Nah, musicians seem to be the most successful at pointing out the social climate and bringing about social change. See the 60s and the 70s.


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## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.



Way to shrug off any argument. Liberal? Anti-everything? Whatever. You asked for reasons why Bush is one of, if not the worst president America has ever had, and you got them. Usually when people ask something like that they want to debate. You just ignore. So what's the point?

Bush has blundered in virtually every arena I can think of. Domestic policy, economics, foreign policy, and the environment. We've seen a severe degredation of freedom under a severely divided government (from the man who was supposed to be a uniter, not a divider), we've seen the dollar plummet, a record surplus turned into a record deficit, and the kind of lasting economic damage that will take several presidents to recover from. We've seen the most disastrous foreign policy since Vietnam, and a comparable level of hypocrisy when comparing campaigning rhetoric with action. We've seen a continually bad education system lagging farther and farther behind the rest of the world even though we spend massively more money per child than any other nation. We've seen a healthcare system dominated by HMOs and idiotically complex rules, while tying the hands of people who want to save lives by banning stem cell research because the Christian Right believes that a blastocyst = human being. We've seen a president absolutely enabling of pseudoscience like intelligent design. We've seen a president who refuses to do anything about global warming and wants to alter reality to fit his views. All this from a C student who never went to war, who failed every business enterprise he's attempted, who thinks he's been appointed by god.

If he's not one of the worst presidents ever, then I wonder how America got where it is today. The great men who have held his position in the past and built this country with their blood, sweat, and tears are rolling in their graves. Bush compares himself to Andrew Jackson, the hero of New Orleans? What a joke.


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

This is for Noodles
Religion
Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics, C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestants Constitutional Convention delegates, 28 were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, and 2 were Methodists. Many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were vocal about their opposition to organized religion or anti-clerical, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson's Bible"), Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine. However, a few of the more notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of traditional Deists, including Jefferson, Paine and Ethan Allen.

Notwithstanding the spectrum of beliefs held by the Founding Fathers, most viewed religion in a favorable light. This is noted through their statements in speeches and correspondences in which they describe its role in molding "national morality" and securing the rule of law (George Washington), its check on human "wickedness" (Benjamin Franklin), and its preservation of a free government such as America (John Adams). Regardless, the division of church and state was always emphasized by the founding fathers. "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," states the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli. This document was ratified by Congress without much debate or contention and stands today as a reminder of the founding fathers' intentions.[10]

Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney

Paragragh two sums up my One Nation under God point. Yes it was not founded on A Religion but they all believe in a GOD.


----------



## Zepp88

TotallyBr00tal said:


> This is for Noodles
> Religion
> Lambert (2003) has examined the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Founders. Some of the 1787 delegates had no affiliation. The others were Protestants except for three Roman Catholics, C. Carroll, D. Carroll, and Fitzsimons. Among the Protestants Constitutional Convention delegates, 28 were Episcopalian, 8 were Presbyterians, 7 were Congregationalists, 2 were Lutherans, 2 were Dutch Reformed, and 2 were Methodists. Many of the more prominent Founding Fathers were vocal about their opposition to organized religion or anti-clerical, such as Jefferson. Some of them often related their anti-organized church leanings in their speeches and correspondence, including George Washington, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson (who created the "Jefferson's Bible"), Benjamin Franklin, Ethan Allen, and Thomas Paine. However, a few of the more notable founders, such as Patrick Henry, were strong proponents of traditional religion. Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of traditional Deists, including Jefferson, Paine and Ethan Allen.
> 
> Notwithstanding the spectrum of beliefs held by the Founding Fathers, most viewed religion in a favorable light. This is noted through their statements in speeches and correspondences in which they describe its role in molding "national morality" and securing the rule of law (George Washington), its check on human "wickedness" (Benjamin Franklin), and its preservation of a free government such as America (John Adams). Regardless, the division of church and state was always emphasized by the founding fathers. "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," states the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli. This document was ratified by Congress without much debate or contention and stands today as a reminder of the founding fathers' intentions.[10]
> 
> Although not a religion, Freemasonry was represented in John Blair, Benjamin Franklin, James Mchenry, George Washington, Abraham Baldwin, Gunning Bedford, William Blount, David Brearly, Daniel Carroll, Jonathan Dayton, Rufus King, John Langdon, George Read, Roger Sherman, James Madison, Robert Morris, William Paterson, and Charles Pinckney
> 
> Paragragh two sums up my One Nation under God point. Yes it was not founded on A Religion but they all believe in a GOD.




You are forgetting the fact that they strongly valued the need for separation of church and state.


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

Metal Ken said:


> Translation: I _cant_ respond with resources and links that provide factual, non bias data.
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, musicians seem to be the most successful at pointing out the social climate and bringing about social change. See the 60s and the 70s.



Ah the 60's and 70's the liberal is born and so the country begins to go down hill and the Everybody do whatever you want mentality is spreading.


----------



## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Paragragh two sums up my One Nation under God point. Yes it was not founded on A Religion but they all believe in a GOD.



Lots of people believe in god, whats your point? God's not the problem. its a legion of fundamentalist psychotics who want to impose their will on everyone that's the issue.



TotallyBr00tal said:


> Ah the 60's and 70's the liberal is born and so the country begins to go down hill and the Everybody do whatever you want mentality is spreading.



Yeah, "Do what you want". thats called freedom. The thing the nation is supposed to promote. 

You'd better go to bed now, so you can get up and listen to Glen Beck and rush limbaugh in the morning.


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Regardless, the division of church and state was always emphasized by the founding fathers. "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion," states the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli. This document was ratified by Congress without much debate or contention and stands today as a reminder of the founding fathers' intentions.[10]



From your own post.


----------



## Metal Ken

garcia3441 said:


> From your own post.



I love how you can deconstruct arguments by posting one link or one sentence


----------



## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Several of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be deists or held beliefs very similar to that of traditional Deists, including Jefferson, Paine and Ethan Allen.



Yeah, I don't see any contradiction here. Both me and noodles said many of them were deists.



> Paragragh two sums up my One Nation under God point. Yes it was not founded on A Religion but they all believe in a GOD.



Apparently you don't understand what "deism" implies. Deism is damn close to pantheism, which is damn close to atheism. Deism was the kind of vague, hand-wavey belief that said that miracles, genesis, and it's ilk was all BS, God had simply created the universe and left it, and it is by rational thought that we uncover god's creation. They believed in an afterlife and stuff, but did not think god ever took a hand in anything before you died.

If you've ever read the Jefferson Bible (I doubt it), it's basically what the New Testament would be if it were supposed to be a self-help book or book on morality as opposed to a divine scripture. In short, it took out everything that made Christianity Christianity. There is no resurrection, no miracles, no immaculate conception, nothing. It's the story of a man, and his teachings.

What you quote also references the Treaty of Tripoli, which once again, if you read, says that there should never be disunity over differing religious opinions. There are tons of atheistic and polytheistic religions. Duh. Also,



WP said:


> Official records show that after President John Adams sent the treaty to the Senate for ratification in May 1797, the entire treaty was read aloud on the Senate floor, including the famous words in Article 11, and copies were printed for every Senator. A committee considered the treaty and recommended ratification, and the treaty was ratified by a unanimous vote of all 23 Senators. The treaty was reprinted in full in three newspapers, two in Philadelphia and one in New York City. There is no record of any public outcry or complaint in subsequent editions of the papers.[3]



It was read aloud, ratified by every member of the senate, and published in the newspapers. Gee.

And I should add that it's the post Cold War era in which the US became THE dominant superpower. Damn those liberals for fucking everything up.


----------



## garcia3441

Metal Ken said:


> I love how you can deconstruct arguments by posting one link or one sentence



Virtual high 5.


----------



## Zepp88

Metal Ken said:


> Lots of people believe in god, whats your point? God's not the problem. its a legion of fundamentalist psychotics who want to impose their will on everyone that's the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, "Do what you want". thats called freedom. The thing the nation is supposed to promote.
> 
> You'd better go to bed now, so you can get up and listen to Glen Beck and rush limbaugh in the morning.


----------



## Aaron

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas. As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.




       

I know people are entitled to their opinion but FUCK!

Throw this fish back! bro

please forgive me if im out of line


----------



## Zepp88

Aaron said:


> I know people are entitled to their opinion but FUCK!
> 
> Throw this fish back! bro



I would second this. Those statements are downright attacks, not healthy debate


----------



## oompa

Metal Ken said:


> Lots of people believe in god, whats your point? God's not the problem. its a legion of fundamentalist psychotics who want to impose their will on everyone that's the issue.



i love the quote: "I've Got Nothing Against God, It's His Fanclub I Can't Stand"


----------



## garcia3441

oompa said:


> i love the quote: "I've Got Nothing Against God, It's His Fanclub I Can't Stand"



 +rep for that.


----------



## smueske

Br00tal, are you sure you're not Rush Limbaugh posting under an assumed name?


----------



## oompa

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Ah the 60's and 70's the liberal is born and so the country begins to go down hill and the Everybody do whatever you want mentality is spreading.



i assume you are aware that there was a 60's and a 70's all over the world, right?  

killing 3000 americans on 9/11 was wrong. by warring afghanistan, some 20.000 people has died, half of them prolly didnt think further than their plowing field the morning of their death. wrong? yep.

warring iraq is plain power abuse to the level of absurdness. screwing the WoMD inspection, ignoring the UN, breaking international laws and just start bombing was a big -fuck you- to the rest of the world. while bush tried to convince us that this was about links to terrorism, human rights, WoMD etc, the rest of the world thought "lol you are there to finish what your dad started, and you figure you'd get some oil to go with that, you fool no one." and about twice as many people are killed. imagine supporting the UN with troops instead, the UNITED nations are more united instead of effectively undermined. you think iraqis would have killed 3000 troops if they'd have the UN flag on their shoulder? its theorycrafting, but i think not.

the aftermath caused bush to be the most hated president in history, and the reason a majority of the world thinks that the US is the biggest threat to world peace. i mean, he only has a few more muslim countries to go now, and he'd be right up there with hitler. also, with the US supporting iraq and afghanistan only 10-20 years ago makes any country a possible target for a backstab. norway has oil and a socialist (read: commie) rule. its also nowhere near the population of the US, or its military capacity, and in military alliance with the US, wich makes norway fit all the requirements to get invaded.

bush has made many totally retarded speeches, and we're talking affecting the rest of the world. saying "you are either with us or against us" made me shake from anger. basically thats a murderer putting a gun to your head telling you to kill some guy who lives next to you. how would that make you feel? to me, bush is, with about 98% of my head's votes, the biggest murderer to walk the earth during my 25 years, and he deserves a trial in Haag, and a cell next to cheney, rumsfeld and the rest of his partners in crime, in some max.sec. prison somewhere in europe. 

sry for the rant, its not directed at anyone but bush


----------



## Shaman

I wonder where TotallyBr00tal went 

Yes, I am from Europe and the majority of us do think that Bush is really a retard, and that the current goverment in the US has made a mockery of international laws, ignoring the UN and even making UN officials look bad.

It is really scary from our point of view, if the US goverment ignores the UN, then who will stop them? The Bush administration has proved that they listen to no one, and they answer to no one but themselves. That is scary, since who knows who they will consider to be the next part of the legendary "axis of evil". 

Iraq is was not a huge terrorist breeding ground, and the Iraq war has nothing to do with terrorism. Fake evidence of terrorist activities were given to the congress to justify the attack. It just proves, that Bush and CO will do anything for their "cause". It seems that even the election is for theirs to manipulate...


----------



## Seedawakener

The more I read the angrier I get... This thread gets even more interesting for evert post that is posted... This is just... I can't believe there are people that just can't get out of their little shells and accept fact for what it is...

Lets sum this up for now. 
SS.org 666 - TotallybrOOtal 0...


----------



## Metal Ken

Shaman said:


> I wonder where TotallyBr00tal went



Sevenstring.org:
Scaring off Neo-cons since 2004.


----------



## El Caco

I feel left out 

It seems like he attacked everyone in this thread but me.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Aaron said:


> I know people are entitled to their opinion but FUCK!



Fascist pig!


----------



## garcia3441

I miss him.


----------



## Zepp88

The last time I saw somebody so blindly patriotic was in the 1930s-40s somewhere in Europe....beside France...


----------



## ohio_eric

Aww damn it. I go away for a day and our little buddy TotallyBr00tal practically admits defeat. Shucks. 

I've seen his ilk before he's either gone for good or he's off looking right-wing extremist web site looking for "facts" to come back with. Either way he'll manage to accomplsih the same on here, nothing.


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

smueske said:


> Br00tal, are you sure you're not Rush Limbaugh posting under an assumed name?



Haha nah bro, I just love hearing all these lame excuses, these are the excuses I hear all the time. Like I said before I love this country and its not blind patriotism, yeah the country is not perfect, it never was and never will be, no country is perfect but I still show support for it, I don't go around complaining and bashing our leader and saying oh man this country sucks, thats what the terrorists want they love turning on their news and seeing people bashing our government. You guys listen to all the liberal run media who want us to lose. You guys obviously didn't vote in the last reelection.
As for Iraq not having ties to terrorism show me some proof, all those countries are tied to it over there. The whole point of us being in Iraq is to help these people have a better life and rebuild their country. We are fighting these extremists on their own soil which is a good thing, our military is crushing them over there and they are running out of places to hide and organize, as soon as we pull out they will be able to organize in large numbers and thats not good. If you guys actually listen to the news Iraqi refugees are returning to their homes because it is safer there now, our military is just waiting for the Iraqi government to make some decisions, now remember they have never made any decisions before or were able to vote so this is something entirely new to them, they had one man making all the decisions and if you disagreed you died. Hopefully if the Iraqi government can start getting it together we will have a strong ally over there which is what we need, then maybe the rest of the middle east will catch on and see that having individual rights such as voting, education and trading with the rest of the world is not so bad. Of course this will take time because their culture is entirely different but look at what happened to japan, they were a country with an entirely different culture in which we influenced and helped become better and begin conforming to the rest of the world. They didn't completely lose their cultural traditions but they realised that if you want to make it in the world you have to conform somewhat to the majority of the world to become better. By the way the U.S. has the strongest economy in the world, so I guess our economy isn't ruined. Yeah some things are messed up but we are still number one.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

The only thing totallybr00tal about your posts is your complete disregard for any sort of grammatical or literary structure.

I recommend you turn off Sean Hannity for 2 hours, and go read this -









Pssst! Paragraphs are your friend. Pass it around.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

P.Fucking.S.

"Bashing our leader."  You can fucking have him, BTW. He might be the President, but he sure as hell isn't _my_ "leader."


----------



## Zepp88

The Dark Wolf said:


> P.Fucking.S.
> 
> "Bashing our leader."  You can fucking have him, BTW. He might be the President, but he sure as hell isn't _my_ "leader."



What!? That's fucking unamurican!! How dare you? Liberal! He's the President of the proud US of A god damnit and you'll follow him off a cliff if he tells you to you liberal hippie! Fuck!


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Shit. I'm proud to be liberal.  that's only a dirty word to Limaughmaniacs.


I'm conservative in many ways, too. Much more than these current neo-cons. I actually believe in limiting gov't into our personal affairs. Wow! What a liberal concept!


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

The Dark Wolf said:


> The only thing totallybr00tal about your posts is your complete disregard for any sort of grammatical or literary structure.
> 
> I recommend you turn off Shawn Hannity for 2 hours, and go read this -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pssst! Paragraphs are your friend. Pass it around.



yeah well I am not writing a college term paper here so whatever. Thats funny though that my literary structure is the only thing you can comment on.


----------



## Zepp88

The Dark Wolf said:


> Shit. I'm proud to be liberal.  that's only a dirty word to Limaughmaniacs.
> 
> 
> I'm conservative in many ways, too. Much more than these current neo-cons. I actually believe in limiting gov't into our personal affairs. Wow! What a liberal concept!



The Federal government should stay out of our everyday lives IMO, it's none of their buisness...But Saddam Hussein running his country as he pleased was none of our buisiness either, he wasn't bugging us as far as I remember...


----------



## The Dark Wolf

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Thats funny though that my literary structure is the only thing you can comment on.



 Believe me, I can comment on much, much more. But let's just say that *basic communication* is a good starting point.  I have to be able to _understand_ what you're fucking saying before I can adequately comment.


Wait... let me use terms relative to your grammatical discernment...

Me no follow what you type. Ugh.


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

The Dark Wolf said:


> Believe me, I can comment on much, much more. But let's just say that *basic communication* is a good starting point.  I have to be able to _understand_ what you're fucking saying before I can adequately comment.
> 
> 
> Wait... let me use terms relative to your grammatical discernment...
> 
> Me no follow what you type. Ugh.



I know you can't understand what I'm talking about, you obviously don't understand anything in this world.


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> thats what the terrorists want they love turning on their news and seeing people bashing our government.You guys obviously didn't vote in the last reelection.



FOXNews.com - Islamists Declare Spain Truce, Endorse Bush - U.S. &amp; World



> The statement tells American voters that Abu Hafs al-Masri supports the re-election campaign of President Bush: "We are very keen that Bush does not lose the upcoming elections."
> 
> The statement said Abu Hafs al-Masri needs what it called Bush's "idiocy and religious fanaticism" because they would "wake up" the Islamic world.



Yes I voted, but I sure as hell didn't vote for Bushit.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I know you can't understand what I'm talking about, you obviously don't understand anything in this world.



Wow, that makes alot of sense. 

I bet you'll come back next time with something along the lines of you being an elastic, vulcanized material and me being being some sort of chemical bonding agent...


----------



## Zepp88




----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> If you guys actually listen to the news Iraqi refugees are returning to their homes because it is safer there now,



Iraqi refugees forced to go home - Conflict in Iraq - MSNBC.com

Plus the countries are turning away new refugees.


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> As for Iraq not having ties to terrorism show me some proof,



washingtonpost.com: Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

Zepp88 said:


> The Federal government should stay out of our everyday lives IMO, it's none of their buisness...But Saddam Hussein running his country as he pleased was none of our buisiness either, he wasn't bugging us as far as I remember...



I think the Federal Government needs to be a little more involved then maybe a lot of people would be alive now including my uncle. You guys need to realize that these terrorists are not far away in plain sight but right here living among us, in our own neighborhoods. They are fucking driving taxis throughout my city. There are people walking around on FBI terrorist watch lists. I think that the only way to help stop this is if the government steps in and watches us, and I am not worried cause I have nothing to hide, yeah its fucked up that the government has to watch us but thats what it has come to, times are changing.


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> By the way the U.S. has the strongest economy in the world, so I guess our economy isn't ruined.



Asia Times Online :: Asian news and current affairs - The US, debtor nation


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Garcia3441 for the fucking win. 

TotallyBr00talGrammar seems like a holdout from 2003 with some of these assertions. Iraq and ties to terrorism? Are you serious? Didn't that go out with Paris and Nicole's friendship, along with Colin Powells position as SecState?


----------



## Zepp88

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I think the Federal Government needs to be a little more involved then maybe a lot of people would be alive now including my uncle. You guys need to realize that these terrorists are not far away in plain sight but right here living among us, in our own neighborhoods. They are fucking driving taxis throughout my city. There are people walking around on FBI terrorist watch lists. I think that the only way to help stop this is if the government steps in and watches us, and I am not worried cause I have nothing to hide, yeah its fucked up that the government has to watch us but thats what it has come to, times are changing.



So, basically you're saying we should live in fear and be watched by an oppressive govt?

I could be killed in public at any time, whether it's by a terrorist or not.


----------



## TomAwesome

Wow, this thread hasn't been closed yet? Awesome.

[action=TomAwesome]pops some popcorn and gets comfortable.[/action]


----------



## garcia3441

The Dark Wolf said:


> Garcia3441 for the fucking win.



You know it.


----------



## garcia3441

TomAwesome said:


> [action=TomAwesome]pops some popcorn and gets comfortable.[/action]



Can I have some popcorn???? Pretty please!!!


----------



## TomAwesome

garcia3441 said:


> Can I have some popcorn???? Pretty please!!!



Maybe, but if this thread has taught you nothing else, let it be that good grammar is important. What you meant to say was, "I can has popcorn?"


----------



## garcia3441

I can has popcorn? Pretty please!!!!


Is better, no?


----------



## TomAwesome

You misspelled "plz" but all right!

[action=garcia3441]can has popcornz!![/action]


----------



## garcia3441

Yeah me!!!!


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

The staff report said that bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq" while in Sudan through 1996, but that "Iraq apparently never responded" to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States." 

Yeah, what the hell do you think al qaeda is gonna say. Yeah rushing into Iraq so quickly was a mistake, but you know what, congress voted for it and thats what most americans wanted was to kick somebody's ass. The Government was going by the current intelligence it had at the time. As for the WMD's Sadaam had plenty of time to get rid of that shit.



garcia3441 said:


> Asia Times Online :: Asian news and current affairs - The US, debtor nation



Yes the U.S. is hugely in debt, but we are still the number one economic power and as long as we are number one, countries will invest in us. Look at all the money we dish out in world aid, plus we are at war.


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."



CIA said to find no Hussein link to terror chief - International Herald Tribune


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Yes the U.S. is hugely in debt, but we are still the number one economic power and as long as we are number one, countries will invest in us. Look at all the money we dish out in world aid, plus we are at war.



..


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> The staff report said that bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq" while in Sudan through 1996, but that "Iraq apparently never responded" to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."



How dare you call President Bush a liar!!!

Bush: No Iraq link to 9/11 found


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

garcia3441 said:


> How dare you call President Bush a liar!!!
> 
> Bush: No Iraq link to 9/11 found



President says Saddam had ties to al-Qaida, but apparently not to attacks

Yeah who the fuck do you think we are fighting.



garcia3441 said:


> How dare you call President Bush a liar!!!
> 
> Bush: No Iraq link to 9/11 found



Seattle post, again Liberal funded media.


----------



## Zepp88

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Yes the U.S. is hugely in debt, but we are still the number one economic power and as long as we are number one, countries will invest in us. Look at all the money we dish out in world aid, plus we are at war.


Yeah...wrong, garcia got that one.


But, doesn't war historically stimilate economy? Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

What a joke. Allow me to do the grunt work for you guys one last time.



> Haha nah bro, I just love hearing all these lame excuses, these are the excuses I hear all the time. Like I said before I love this country and its not blind patriotism, yeah the country is not perfect, it never was and never will be, no country is perfect but I still show support for it, I don't go around complaining and bashing our leader and saying oh man this country sucks, thats what the terrorists want they love turning on their news and seeing people bashing our government.



Our government damn well deserves criticism for shit like Guantanamo. Besides, this shit in Iraq would have been over with or never started had Bush listened to Shinseki about how many troops we would need. The laughed at him when he said we'd need at least 200k troops in Iraq to have our invasion succeed. 

Pentagon Contradicts General on Iraq Occupation Force's Size - UN Security Council - Global Policy Forum
USATODAY.com - Ex-Army boss: Pentagon won't admit reality in Iraq

Any of that shit look familiar? Besides, should we do anything simply because it's the opposite of what a terrorist wants? What the fuck kind of logic is that? We should do what is best, not decide policy by some blind contrarian decision making process. If the government is fucked up, the people have the _obligation_ to criticize it and bring about change.



> You guys listen to all the liberal run media who want us to lose.



I'll ignore the "liberal run" part since I just don't want to go over that bullshit again, but they want us to lose? What the hell? Are you insane? You think they want American soldiers and civilians to die? What in the hell gave you that idea?



> You guys obviously didn't vote in the last reelection.



Oh whatever. First of all I was I think 16 in 2004, and second, if proper election procedures were followed in Florida, we would never have had Bush as a president in the first place. Not only did he lose the popular vote, he lost in Florida, period, and was only "elected" because the supreme court suspended the counting.



> As for Iraq not having ties to terrorism show me some proof, all those countries are tied to it over there.



How about the fact that almost every single fucking terrorist on 9/11 came from Saudi Arabia, Osama Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia, Al Qaeda is based mostly in Afghanistan and Pakistan, and that the Taliban is from Afghanistan. Are you purposely trying to ignore the news or something? I mean, Jesus, the Bush administration's line is that most of the insurgency in Iraq is from foreign fighters from places like Syria, Jordan, and Iran. The only reason there is so much terrorist activity in Iraq now is because _all the US troops are now in Iraq and they are easier to access there than in the US_.



> The whole point of us being in Iraq is to help these people have a better life and rebuild their country.



Oh whatever. Bush said the purpose of our invasion of Iraq is that Saddam either had or was actively trying to procure nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons and was harboring terrorists. Both of which are BS. Had Bush argued we should invade Iraq because he was an evil despot, I would have said yeah, but so is Kim Jong-Il and countless others I'd consider worse. The whole premise of the invasion is a farce. The fact is that if we left now, Iraq would be mostly fucked, but _we should have stayed in Afghanistan in the first place_.



> We are fighting these extremists on their own soil which is a good thing, our military is crushing them over there and they are running out of places to hide and organize, as soon as we pull out they will be able to organize in large numbers and thats not good.



They were never organizing in Iraq in the first place!



> If you guys actually listen to the news Iraqi refugees are returning to their homes because it is safer there now



Oh Jesus H Christ. The UNHCR reports that 14% of them are returning because they think Iraq is saver. The vast majority are doing it because either a) Syria won't renew their visa, or b) They're too broke to stay.

IRIN Middle East | Middle East | Iraq Syria | IRAQ-SYRIA: Lack of money, visa problems prompting Iraqi refugees to return home | Economy Conflict Aid Policy Refugees/IDPs | News Item



> our military is just waiting for the Iraqi government to make some decisions, now remember they have never made any decisions before or were able to vote so this is something entirely new to them, they had one man making all the decisions and if you disagreed you died.



Oh come on, the Iraqi government is a joke.



> Hopefully if the Iraqi government can start getting it together we will have a strong ally over there which is what we need, then maybe the rest of the middle east will catch on and see that having individual rights such as voting, education and trading with the rest of the world is not so bad.



This line of thinking borders on nonsensical. We do not need a strong ally in the middle east to get them to stop attacking us, we need to stay the fuck out of their business. The people in the middle east see the US as constantly supporting coups or setting up puppet governments and interfering in their own sovereignty, and they're half right. Look at Iran for example.



> Of course this will take time because their culture is entirely different but look at what happened to japan, they were a country with an entirely different culture in which we influenced and helped become better and begin conforming to the rest of the world.



Look how many freaking US troops we had over there. Look at the huge international support for what was going on there post WW2. The situations were completely different.



> They didn't completely lose their cultural traditions but they realised that if you want to make it in the world you have to conform somewhat to the majority of the world to become better.



For one thing, Japan is a very homogeneous nation. And I mean god, what in the hell does this have to do with anything. If we had wanted to properly invade and occupy Iraq, we would have needed so many more troops it's ridiculous.



> By the way the U.S. has the strongest economy in the world, so I guess our economy isn't ruined. Yeah some things are messed up but we are still number one.



This barely deserves a reply. The dollar is trading at like .46 to the pound. We're trillions in debt. On the cusp of the first recession since '01. At least you're acknowledging that Bush fucked up, but apparently you don't realize how badly.



TotallyBr00tal said:


> Seattle post, again Liberal funded media.



They're directly quoting Bush. How much room for liberal bias is there in showing a direct contradiction? My god.


----------



## garcia3441

Jongpil Yun said:


> This barely deserves a reply. The dollar is trading at like .46 to the pound. We're trillions in debt. On the cusp of the first recession since '01. At least you're acknowledging that Bush fucked up, but apparently you don't realize how badly.



Thanks for covering that one, I couldn't find any links.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Zepp88 said:


> But, doesn't war historically stimilate economy? Correct me if I'm wrong.



The belief that war stimulates the economy is, I think, an example of the broken window fallacy.

Parable of the broken window - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I seriously doubt that it's even worth talking to this guy. How much of an effect are you going to have on someone who can write off any contrary piece of evidence as being due to liberal bias?


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

garcia3441 said:


> ..



By a comparison of GDP, the United States has the strongest economy in the world by far at over $13 trillion. The #2 ranked nation is over $8.8 trillion behind. Interestingly enough, the #2 and #3 ranked nations are Japan at #2 and Germany at #3. These are two nations that the US defeated in World War II and then rebuilt on the American principles of (1) individual freedom, (2) democratic self-government, and (3) free-market economy.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> These are two nations that the US defeated in World War II and then rebuilt on the American principles of (1) individual freedom, (2) democratic self-government, and (3) free-market economy.



And you've obviously shown you don't give a damn about any of those, since you're for the curtailing of individual freedom, buy into a president who was unjustly elected, and think that the only way we can change people's minds is by war.


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> By a comparison of GDP, the United States has the strongest economy in the world by far at over $13 trillion. The #2 ranked nation is over $8.8 trillion behind. Interestingly enough, the #2 and #3 ranked nations are Japan at #2 and Germany at #3. These are two nations that the US defeated in World War II and then rebuilt on the American principles of (1) individual freedom, (2) democratic self-government, and (3) free-market economy.



WTO: China overtakes U.S. in exports - World business - MSNBC.com

China Will Replace the United States as the Worldâs Most Important Economy


----------



## Zepp88

Jongpil Yun said:


> The belief that war stimulates the economy is, I think, an example of the broken window fallacy.
> 
> Parable of the broken window - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I seriously doubt that it's even worth talking to this guy. How much of an effect are you going to have on someone who can write off any contrary piece of evidence as being due to liberal bias?





Thanks man, that was a really informative article which made a lot of sense.


----------



## TotallyBr00tal

Jongpil Yun said:


> And you've obviously shown you don't give a damn about any of those, since you're for the curtailing of individual freedom, buy into a president who was unjustly elected, and think that the only way we can change people's minds is by war.



Curtailng of individual freedom I think our current situation may require that. Wow this statement sums up that you are the biggest lib and there is no way of changing you. So you think there was a more peaceful way of stopping the Japanese from bombing us and ending the Holocaust. Wow we would get real far with you as our leader, we might as well just give up and surrender cause I know you won't do anything.


----------



## Zepp88

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Curtailng of individual freedom I think our current situation may require that. Wow this statement sums up that you are the biggest lib and there is no way of changing you. So you think there was a more peaceful way of stopping the Japanese from bombing us and ending the Holocaust. Wow we would get real far with you as our leader, we might as well just give up and surrender cause I know you won't do anything.



You are wayyy hung up on the Liberal vs. Conservative pissing match. You can't see through that kind of territorial bullshit?

It's not about Liberals or Conservatives, it's about doing the RIGHT thing.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Curtailng of individual freedom I think our current situation may require that. Wow this statement sums up that you are the biggest lib and there is no way of changing you. So you think there was a more peaceful way of stopping the Japanese from bombing us and ending the Holocaust. Wow we would get real far with you as our leader, we might as well just give up and surrender cause I know you won't do anything.



Actually, I think nuking Hiroshima (not sure about Nagasaki) was the best way to end the war. Shows how much you know.

The difference, again, is that Japan is a god damned nation, and terrorism is a tactic. We went into a totally unjust pre-emptive war on a false premise, and bungled the whole thing by not sending half as many troops as we needed to because of incompetent leadership.

Second, this is a democracy. Americans have, in the past, suspended individual liberties, but get this, _the Senate approved it and it was not done in secret by the executive alone_.

I'm awed by your ability to read my character. If I were in Bush's place, and had decided that for some ungodly reason we needed to invade Iraq, I would have argued for sending at least 300k during the occupation to stabilize Iraq as quickly and thoroughly as possible. But I wouldn't have invaded Iraq because they had nothing to do with anything, and by doing so I would have squandered international support for our defense against extremists by fucking with the wrong people.


----------



## Zepp88

Jongpil Yun said:


> Actually, I think nuking Hiroshima (not sure about Nagasaki) was the best way to end the war. Shows how much you know.
> 
> The difference, again, is that Japan is a god damned nation, and terrorism is a tactic. We went into a totally unjust pre-emptive war on a false premise, and bungled the whole thing by not sending half as many troops as we needed to because of incompetent leadership.
> 
> Second, this is a democracy. Americans have, in the past, suspended individual liberties, but get this, _the Senate approved it and it was not done in secret by the executive alone_.
> 
> I'm awed by your ability to read my character.




I further this by commenting that you can't "beat" terrorism, it's a tactic, it's a mindset and it's a constant. It's NOT going away. Look at Ireland, they've had their fair share...


----------



## garcia3441

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Curtailng of individual freedom I think our current situation may require that. Wow this statement sums up that you are the biggest lib and there is no way of changing you. So you think there was a more peaceful way of stopping the Japanese from bombing us and ending the Holocaust. Wow we would get real far with you as our leader, we might as well just give up and surrender cause I know you won't do anything.



President Bush noted that the terrorists targeted the United States because we embrace liberty.

The terrorists hate our freedoms: our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other, the president said.

And yet he (and apparently you as well) want to take those very freedoms away. Why do you and the president hate freedom and the constitution?


----------



## Jongpil Yun

garcia3441 said:


> President Bush noted that the terrorists targeted the United States because we embrace liberty.
> 
> The terrorists hate our freedoms: our freedom of religion, our freedom of speech, our freedom to vote and assemble and disagree with each other, the president said.



It's a good example of his hypocrisy, but also for the most part wrong. There are those who think Islam should rule the world and that we should all die because of our freedom of religion and speech, but those are a minority even among the extremist terrorists.


----------



## garcia3441

Jongpil Yun said:


> It's a good example of his hypocrisy, but also for the most part wrong. There are those who think Islam should rule the world and that we should all die because of our freedom of religion and speech, but those are a minority even among the extremist terrorists.



And there are Bab'tists who have the same thoughts. My neighbor for one.

When you do a side by side comparison between the Islamic extremists and some of the hard-line right-wing Christians, I'm hard-pressed to find much of a difference between the two.

(I feel some neg. rep. coming my way. But oh well.)


----------



## Zepp88

garcia3441 said:


> And there are Bab'tists who have the same thoughts. My neighbor for one.



"If everyone beleieved in OUR God there would be no more war, hunger, or death"

I know what you're talking about  


"Don't beleive in that God, that God is evil. THIS God has candy "


----------



## Jongpil Yun

garcia3441 said:


> And there are Bab'tists who have the same thoughts. My neighbor for one.



Probably true, but my understanding is that most of the people killing themselves over this shit are doing it for mostly different reasons.



Zepp88 said:


> "If everyone beleieved in OUR God there would be no more war, hunger, or death"
> 
> I know what you're talking about
> 
> 
> "Don't beleive in that God, that God is evil. THIS God has candy "



See the thread in Off-Topic about the most badass bible passages. Clearly, the only way to hold a religious debate is to see whose god can smite the most people with fires of brimstone.


----------



## garcia3441

Zepp88 said:


> THIS God has candy "



Candy!!!! Which God has candy? I want some candy.


----------



## Zepp88

garcia3441 said:


> Candy!!!! Which God has candy? I want some candy.









This one.


----------



## garcia3441

Zepp88 said:


> This one.



I asked him for some peanut butter m&m's, but he said he was out so I won't be following him.


----------



## Zepp88




----------



## JJ Rodriguez

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Curtailng of individual freedom I think our current situation may require that. *Wow this statement sums up that you are the biggest lib and there is no way of changing you.* So you think there was a more peaceful way of stopping the Japanese from bombing us and ending the Holocaust. Wow we would get real far with you as our leader, we might as well just give up and surrender cause I know you won't do anything.



So instead of refuting any of his points, you again resort to "name calling", at least I guess you could call it that because you treat liberal as some kind of dirty word. And as for no way of changing him? Pot and kettle dude. You started this thread looking for any wrong doings of Bush, you have been handed a shit ton, and you just write it all off as "liberal media". Of course it's going to be liberal media reporting on it. If it was biased for the president, do you think that news organization is going to shit talk the president at all? Fuck no, it's going to leave details out, put a minor news article, and make it not seem like a big deal, like this, "And that's the news for tonight btwthepresidentwiretapsyourphones so good night.". Why the fuck did you start this thread in the first place if you're just going to write off any evidence as liberal bias? If you're so stuck in your ways, then why bother discussing it at all?


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Um...

I'm guessing to be a confrontational jerk?


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

The Dark Wolf said:


> Um...
> 
> I'm guessing to be a confrontational jerk?



I guess that's as good a reason as any


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Heh. Good reason to get himself banned if he keeps it up, IMO.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

He's lucky I'm not part of the blue man group or I would have done it just for being so god damn ignorant


----------



## Metal Ken

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Yeah who the fuck do you think we are fighting.



Common sense and good judgement apparently.


----------



## Seedawakener

Do not ban this man... This is the most interesting read on SS.org ever. Im sorry "random pics of your seven"-thread.


----------



## El Caco

Yeah don't ban him yet, his ignorance is amusing.


----------



## Metal Ken

s7eve said:


> Yeah don't ban him yet, his ignorance is amusing.



I wont ban him unless he can either does something really offensive or unless he can beat me at Bear blasting or HumpCatting (Similar to bear blasting).


----------



## TomAwesome

Not even if he kicks you with his energy legs?


----------



## Metal Ken

TomAwesome said:


> Not even if he kicks you with his energy legs?



Nah, i've got more lytes than my body has room for ;p


----------



## 7slinger

bravo on a good read, very entertaining





TotallyBr00tal said:


> As for Iraq not having ties to terrorism show me some proof, all those countries are tied to it over there.





Apparently, "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply when America is just looking for some ass to kick? Is a belief without adequate proof all we need to sound the bugles and send the boys in? 

Even after 9/11, when America was pissed off, unified, and ready to fuck shit up, our commander and chief should have looked at the available intel, and said "Invasion...wouldn't be prudent, not at this juncture."


----------



## Mr. S

have to say, this has been a damn good read this thread there has been some thorough thought, research, a shit load of intelligence and common sense put into some peoples arguments and an outstanding level of stubbornness on the part of other people (well one person ) that amounts nothing more than a child sticking their fingers in their ears screaming "lalalah im not listening" when faced with what is for all intensive purposes FACT!

my only regret about this thread is it dosent have more input from ohio_eric & noodles, their political tirades are dreamy  

good thread everyone, the political section of this site is one of my fav parts


----------



## ohio_eric

Ah poor little TotallyBr00tal. He is but another of the many hardline right wing kool-aid drinkers you're likely to encounter here on the many tubes of interwebs. 

So see kids I'm on another forum that is anti-Iraq War and for the most part highly liberal. We get trolls just like this guy from time to time. It always seems to work the same way. They make some big bold statement or challenge. Then when it is either proven incorrect or the challenge is answered. They use the same tactics. 

They refuse to believe anything printed in a news source that isn't FOXNews or the Drudge Report or something very similar. 

They love to throw World War Two out there since it is the last just war in which we fought. Feel free to notice how they never mention Korea or Vietnam. 

They attack those who discredit them with facts and sound philosophy as brainwashed or sissies or that they hate their country. 

They bring up that "USA #1" almost to the point of it being some meditative chant. As long as we got the biggest guns we can do as we damn well please apparently.

So our new little firend TotallyBr00tal has drunk deeply the elephant flavored kool-aid. I'm more or less done with him. garcia and yk have been kicking his ass pretty badly. So have fun with him kids.


----------



## Makelele

Come on people, how can you be against this man?


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Makelele said:


> Come on people, how can you be against this man?




I think that's possibly one of the funniest videos I've ever seen


----------



## Vegetta

As a person of a more moderate political outlook than most of the people here I usually stay the hell away from the PCE boards... Actually I would sooner dry hump a hornets nest than post here and get all of your hippy rhetoric spewed at me ad naseum .

I'm a republican but I vote for who I believe will do the best job. I don't hate gays, I'm not a christian, I believe that America was built on immigration. I believe in a strong national defense, stem cell research, space exploration and evolution. I voted for Clinton 2 times. I also voted for Bush 2 times (your welcome) I'm sorry but Gore and Kerry both - well tbh I don't know if either of them could have done any better or worse than GW. 

Congress approved the war - with a half assed budget. I would have thought after vietnam we might have learned a few things like get some support from other countries to help offset the costs (both fiscal and in lives)... No we had to John Wayne it and go it alone...

I think a lot of the economical problems were are having now are a result of some of the trade practices started by Clinton.... Nafta is going to bone us - look at how many plants are closing now and moving to Mexico... Not to mention His under the table dealings with China (Satellite tech for $$ its hard to tell what else went on...) 

You people act like Bush is the only president to ever pander to special interest groups, practice cronyism and deceive the public...he's not. Both the dems and the republicans are as culpable in this. I think GW is just too stupid to cover his tracks.

Do I think Bush is a great president, no not really. Actually I would not call him a good president either but IMO he is not the worst president ever. That distinction belongs solely to Jimmy Carter. Yes you can argue that he had Ford/Nixon's mess to clean up and did manage to bring peace between Egypt and Israel but if any of you are old enough to actually remember how bad things were in the mid - late 70's - to have actually lived through that period of time I think you might understand where I am coming from: Gas Shortages, inflation, the worst winter in 200 years (Global warming my ass), Iran Hostages, Russia invades Afghanistan, UMW strike, the death of the US auto industry, Death of the US Steel Industry, AFSCME, Love Canal, Three mile Island..Yeah the 70's sucked ass.

This war should have never happened - Hussain should have been removed after the Gulf War - instead we let him skip home and gas a few thousand Kurds to death... But there are other countries that are as bad off or worse than Iraq - hell there is a whole bunch of them in Africa.

What country deserves help? What country doesnt? What is right or what is right for us? I don't know... I'm just a guy out to get by from day to day not solve the worlds problems. Do I think the US is perfect? - hell no! I do think it is the best place to be and it offers it's people more than any other country (even more than those countries that have free health care).

I'm not a blindly patriotic. I'm not blindly liberal (tho imo it seems some of you are close to being in this camp at times). I have friends who are are on both extremes. Its like my Poly Sci professor used to say: "If you go far enough to one side you end up being on the other without realizing it." 

I've probably just made Ken, Bob, Dave and Eric's heads explode


----------



## Metal Ken

Vegetta said:


> As a person of a more moderate political outlook than most of the people here I usually stay the hell away from the PCE boards... Actually I would sooner dry hump a hornets nest than post here and get all of your hippy rhetoric spewed at me ad naseum .
> 
> I'm a republican but I vote for who I believe will do the best job. I don't hate gays, I'm not a christian, I believe that America was built on immigration. I believe in a strong national defense, stem cell research, space exploration and evolution. I voted for Clinton 2 times. I also voted for Bush 2 times (your welcome) I'm sorry but Gore and Kerry both - well tbh I don't know if either of them could have done any better or worse than GW.
> 
> Congress approved the war - with a half assed budget. I would have thought after vietnam we might have learned a few things like get some support from other countries to help offset the costs (both fiscal and in lives)... No we had to John Wayne it and go it alone...
> 
> I think a lot of the economical problems were are having now are a result of some of the trade practices started by Clinton.... Nafta is going to bone us - look at how many plants are closing now and moving to Mexico... Not to mention His under the table dealings with China (Satellite tech for $$ its hard to tell what else went on...)
> 
> You people act like Bush is the only president to ever pander to special interest groups, practice cronyism and deceive the public...he's not. Both the dems and the republicans are as culpable in this. I think GW is just too stupid to cover his tracks.
> 
> Do I think Bush is a great president, no not really. Actually I would not call him a good president either but IMO he is not the worst president ever. That distinction belongs solely to Jimmy Carter. Yes you can argue that he had Ford/Nixon's mess to clean up and did manage to bring peace between Egypt and Israel but if any of you are old enough to actually remember how bad things were in the mid - late 70's - to have actually lived through that period of time I think you might understand where I am coming from: Gas Shortages, inflation, the worst winter in 200 years (Global warming my ass), Iran Hostages, Russia invades Afghanistan, UMW strike, the death of the US auto industry, Death of the US Steel Industry, AFSCME, Love Canal, Three mile Island..Yeah the 70's sucked ass.
> 
> This war should have never happened - Hussain should have been removed after the Gulf War - instead we let him skip home and gas a few thousand Kurds to death... But there are other countries that are as bad off or worse than Iraq - hell there is a whole bunch of them in Africa.
> 
> What country deserves help? What country doesnt? What is right or what is right for us? I don't know... I'm just a guy out to get by from day to day not solve the worlds problems. Do I think the US is perfect? - hell no! I do think it is the best place to be and it offers it's people more than any other country (even more than those countries that have free health care).
> 
> I'm not a blindly patriotic. I'm not blindly liberal (tho imo it seems some of you are close to being in this camp at times). I have friends who are are on both extremes. Its like my Poly Sci professor used to say: "If you go far enough to one side you end up being on the other without realizing it."
> 
> I've probably just made Ken, Bob, Dave and Eric's heads explode



Which Ken? 

I agree with most of the shit in there, except saying bush isn't the worst president and calling me a hippy. Hippies should all be incinerated.


----------



## Vegetta

Metal Ken said:


> Which Ken?
> 
> I agree with most of the shit in there, except saying bush isn't the worst president and calling me a hippy. Hippies should all be incinerated.



heheh you (I was being a bit of a goof on that last line) I tend to label liberals as hippies - I guess i shouldnt


----------



## garcia3441

Vegetta said:


> I voted for Clinton 2 times. I also voted for Bush 2 times (your welcome) I'm sorry but Gore and Kerry both - well tbh I don't know if either of them could have done any better or worse than GW.


I'm a liberal Democrat and I voted for Clinton only once, and in 2004 I actually voted for a 3rd party candidate.



> Congress approved the war - with a half assed budget. I would have thought after vietnam we might have learned a few things like get some support from other countries to help offset the costs (both fiscal and in lives)... No we had to John Wayne it and go it alone...


Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz guaranteed the war would be short and we would be greated as liberators.




> Jimmy Carter. Yes you can argue that he had Ford/Nixon's mess to clean up and did manage to bring peace between Egypt and Israel but if any of you are old enough to actually remember how bad things were in the mid - late 70's - to have actually lived through that period of time I think you might understand where I am coming from: Gas Shortages, inflation, the worst winter in 200 years (Global warming my ass), Iran Hostages, Russia invades Afghanistan, UMW strike, the death of the US auto industry, Death of the US Steel Industry, AFSCME, Love Canal, Three mile Island..Yeah the 70's sucked ass.


And which of those things was Carter responsible for?


As for me being a hippie; the only thing I have in common with hippies is my large collection of tie-dyed shirts.


----------



## garcia3441

Vegetta said:


> As a person of a more moderate political outlook than most of the people here I usually stay the hell away from the PCE boards... Actually I would sooner dry hump a hornets nest than post here and get all of your hippy rhetoric spewed at me ad naseum .
> 
> I'm a republican but I vote for who I believe will do the best job. I don't hate gays, I'm not a christian, I believe that America was built on immigration. I believe in a strong national defense, stem cell research, space exploration and evolution. I voted for Clinton 2 times. I also voted for Bush 2 times (your welcome) I'm sorry but Gore and Kerry both - well tbh I don't know if either of them could have done any better or worse than GW.
> 
> Congress approved the war - with a half assed budget. I would have thought after vietnam we might have learned a few things like get some support from other countries to help offset the costs (both fiscal and in lives)... No we had to John Wayne it and go it alone...
> 
> I think a lot of the economical problems were are having now are a result of some of the trade practices started by Clinton.... Nafta is going to bone us - look at how many plants are closing now and moving to Mexico... Not to mention His under the table dealings with China (Satellite tech for $$ its hard to tell what else went on...)
> 
> You people act like Bush is the only president to ever pander to special interest groups, practice cronyism and deceive the public...he's not. Both the dems and the republicans are as culpable in this. I think GW is just too stupid to cover his tracks.
> 
> Do I think Bush is a great president, no not really. Actually I would not call him a good president either but IMO he is not the worst president ever. That distinction belongs solely to Jimmy Carter. Yes you can argue that he had Ford/Nixon's mess to clean up and did manage to bring peace between Egypt and Israel but if any of you are old enough to actually remember how bad things were in the mid - late 70's - to have actually lived through that period of time I think you might understand where I am coming from: Gas Shortages, inflation, the worst winter in 200 years (Global warming my ass), Iran Hostages, Russia invades Afghanistan, UMW strike, the death of the US auto industry, Death of the US Steel Industry, AFSCME, Love Canal, Three mile Island..Yeah the 70's sucked ass.
> 
> This war should have never happened - Hussain should have been removed after the Gulf War - instead we let him skip home and gas a few thousand Kurds to death... But there are other countries that are as bad off or worse than Iraq - hell there is a whole bunch of them in Africa.
> 
> What country deserves help? What country doesnt? What is right or what is right for us? I don't know... I'm just a guy out to get by from day to day not solve the worlds problems. Do I think the US is perfect? - hell no! I do think it is the best place to be and it offers it's people more than any other country (even more than those countries that have free health care).
> 
> I'm not a blindly patriotic. I'm not blindly liberal (tho imo it seems some of you are close to being in this camp at times). I have friends who are are on both extremes. Its like my Poly Sci professor used to say: "If you go far enough to one side you end up being on the other without realizing it."
> 
> I've probably just made Ken, Bob, Dave and Eric's heads explode



+Rep for presenting your argument in a well thought out and intelligent manner.  



(Even though I disagree with it. )


----------



## Drew

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Yes the U.S. is hugely in debt, but we are still the number one economic power and as long as we are number one, countries will invest in us. Look at all the money we dish out in world aid, plus we are at war.




I'll respond with a couple images for you. First, the cover of this week's The Economist (a British _conservative_ publication, which I read mostly for a change of pace):







It contains an interesting story about the dollar's abysmal slide under the Bush Administration - when he came into office, one Euro was worth about $.83, and now we're hovering somewhere around $1.42, as well as a discussion on growing international unease and the continued feasibility of using the dollar as the de facto international currency, given the amount of economic damage this decline has done to a huge number of international governments who have over the last 10-15 years begun to hold currency stockpiles, primarily in USD. Certainly, the historic belief in the stability of the dollar has been rethought - you can't slide 40% against the "other" main currency in six years without turning a few heads. 

Second, the infamous graph of the federal budget surplus/deficit broken down by presidency:






Yeah. We've sure got a strong economy, and we can sure thank Bush for that... 


I'll also post this picture I inexplicitly found while googling that budget chart. It adds nothing to mty counterargument, but I feel strangely compelled to post it nonetheless:


----------



## Vegetta

^^ Drew wins the internet 



garcia3441 said:


> And which of those things was Carter responsible for?




In effect he was responsible for much of it as he did nothing to help any of it. (think of GWs response to Katrina )


----------



## garcia3441

Drew said:


> I'll also post this picture I inexplicitly found while googling that budget chart. It adds nothing to mty counterargument, but I feel strangely compelled to post it nonetheless:



+rep for our resident lush.


----------



## garcia3441

Vegetta said:


> In effect he was responsible for much of it as he did nothing to help any of it. (think of GWs response to Katrina )



Jimmy Carter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


----------



## Drew

Honestly, I'm really not sure what exactly it has to do with "Clinton Budget surplus," but who am I to argue - I just wanted to pass along a good thing when I saw one.


----------



## garcia3441

Drew said:


> Honestly, I'm really not sure what exactly it has to do with "Clinton Budget surplus," but who am I to argue - I just wanted to pass along a good thing when I saw one.



Well, she does have 2 rather large surpluses.


----------



## Vegetta

garcia3441 said:


> Well, she does have 2 rather large surpluses.



On that i can agree 101%


----------



## garcia3441

Vegetta said:


> On that i can agree 101%



See, we do have common ground.


----------



## oompa

just out of curiosity, how come that you can post a direct link to this image in a politics thread, and people rep you:



Drew said:


>



but when i post a picture of equal nakedness, in a thread called "do you also hate the opposite sex", in the off-topics forum, you remove it and neg rep me?


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Vegetta said:


> I think a lot of the economical problems were are having now are a result of some of the trade practices started by Clinton.... Nafta is going to bone us - look at how many plants are closing now and moving to Mexico... Not to mention His under the table dealings with China (Satellite tech for $$ its hard to tell what else went on...)



Some conservative you are. If it weren't for all our BS government subsidies propping up dying industries, the US would be in a lot better shape, and NAFTA would have helped. I'm sure you've heard of the term comparative advantage, right? The US is long past the point of being an industrial exporter. Quite simply, US made goods are too expensive for other people to buy (even with the precipitous drop in the dollar recently) because our standard of living and wages are that of a post-industrial economy. 



> You people act like Bush is the only president to ever pander to special interest groups, practice cronyism and deceive the public...he's not. Both the dems and the republicans are as culpable in this. I think GW is just too stupid to cover his tracks.



He has done all those things much more than anyone else in recent history. Besides, is that even an argument for Bush? If you think he's too stupid to cover his tracks, you're way the fuck off. Bush is not stupid, not by a long shot.



> Do I think Bush is a great president, no not really. Actually I would not call him a good president either but IMO he is not the worst president ever. That distinction belongs solely to Jimmy Carter.



Joking? Compared to Andrew Johnson's disastrous handling of the reconstruction that led him to be the first president to be impeached? After Pierce and Fillmore's role in the secession? Hoover's handling of the Great Depression? Carter was a terrible president, but no where near the worst.



> Yes you can argue that he had Ford/Nixon's mess to clean up and did manage to bring peace between Egypt and Israel but if any of you are old enough to actually remember how bad things were in the mid - late 70's - to have actually lived through that period of time I think you might understand where I am coming from: Gas Shortages, inflation,



See previous.



> the worst winter in 200 years (Global warming my ass)



 OK Mr. Climatologist.



> the death of the US auto industry, Death of the US Steel Industry



How in the hell is it Carter's fault that the US simply ceased to be competitive?



> Three mile Island.



Carter caused Three Mile Island? ...yeah OK.



> What country deserves help? What country doesnt? What is right or what is right for us? I don't know... I'm just a guy out to get by from day to day not solve the worlds problems.



The question is not what country deserves help (they all do), but rather, why are we supposed to be the world's policeman?



> Do I think the US is perfect? - hell no! I do think it is the best place to be and it offers it's people more than any other country (even more than those countries that have free health care).



Norway, Sweden, Canada?



> I'm not a blindly patriotic. I'm not blindly liberal (tho imo it seems some of you are close to being in this camp at times). I have friends who are are on both extremes. Its like my Poly Sci professor used to say: "If you go far enough to one side you end up being on the other without realizing it."



What? How can you be so for personal freedoms that you become authoritarian?


----------



## Vegetta

Jongpil Yun said:


> Some conservative you are. If it weren't for all our BS government subsidies propping up dying industries, the US would be in a lot better shape, and NAFTA would have helped. I'm sure you've heard of the term comparative advantage, right? The US is long past the point of being an industrial exporter. Quite simply, US made goods are too expensive for other people to buy (even with the precipitous drop in the dollar recently) because our standard of living and wages are that of a post-industrial economy.



I said I was a moderate not a conservative - I realize that mismanagement and unions have done more to ruin manufacturing in the US than the government. You think business subsidies are bs That is your right. I think a lot of the social programs funded by the government are BS - they don't really help anyone (enough) and like many charitable organizations use much too large a percentage of their capital on operating costs instead of getting the money to where it will and can do the most good.




> He has done all those things much more than anyone else in recent history. Besides, is that even an argument for Bush? If you think he's too stupid to cover his tracks, you're way the fuck off. Bush is not stupid, not by a long shot.



I guess you didn't get that I am not really pro Bush 




> Joking? Compared to Andrew Johnson's disastrous handling of the reconstruction that led him to be the first president to be impeached? After Pierce and Fillmore's role in the secession? Hoover's handling of the Great Depression? Carter was a terrible president, but no where near the worst.
> 
> 
> 
> See previous.



Fair enough 




> OK Mr. Climatologist.



I don't think global warming is a result of mans impact on the planet. Weather is cyclical there are many periods of prolonged hot and cold. 




> How in the hell is it Carter's fault that the US simply ceased to be competitive?



He didnt do much to stop it from happening - actually with all of the fucked up things he had to deal with it is a miracle he accomplished anything... 

Again, I point the finger more at unions and company mismanagement more than Carter but he certainly did nothing to help the situation. 

The area i live in *had* 2 major industries Steel and Coal. Basically in the 70s it died - The town I grew up in has less than half the population it did when I was a kid. Most towns are just urban blight... victems of the rust belt now and are populated by people to old to move. 

Should the government bail out these industries? It is welfare of a sorts but if the companies can manage to turn things around and grow they are actually of more benefit than simple welfare. Should every company be bailed out at Your (and mine) expense? No, I don't think so either but there are other ways to help - tax breaks for example. 



> Carter caused Three Mile Island? ...yeah OK.




HE didn't cause it lmao it was just one more thing that could have turned out much worse. I probably should not have listed it but it was just one more piece of how much the 70's sucked and i got a bit carried away...



> The question is not what country deserves help (they all do), but rather, why are we supposed to be the world's policeman?



That was what i was trying to say - sorry I was not more clear.



> Norway, Sweden, Canada?



Pass - I would honestly have no interest in living in any of those countries.



> What? How can you be so for personal freedoms that you become authoritarian?


I'm not sure what your getting at here - I simply meant to say that pushed far enough to one side usually(sadly) the outcomes are much the same...violence and death... 


I don't know you but I am going to say this - your tone is a little condescending, you jump to conclusions and think I am just another neo-con asshat that doesn't know shit from shine-ola. (I think it was pretty clear I am a moderate but oh well)

I not going to argue with you. I can see the points you are trying to make - just don't be so shocked and angry when someone doesn't see things the way that you do.


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Vegetta said:


> Pass - I would honestly have no interest in living in any of those countries.





What's the matter, can't handle your syrup?


----------



## JBroll

TotallyBr00tal said:


> I am not gonna respond with resources and links and all that cause I'll be here all day and this will never end but these are the types of answers I was expecting from a music site considering most musicians are liberal/anti everything so thats cool. This thread just supports my belief that patriotism is dying in this country.



Wow... you're useless. I can't bear to read your posts after this.

I am not a liberal. Anyone here will back that up. But I'm also not a deranged lunatic who refuses to look at root causes of real problems, instead choosing to try applying more of the same solution that not only hasn't ever worked but more often makes the problem WORSE. 

I'm amazed that after the insane expansion of government power, the increased lack of accountability, and countless violations of the basic tenets of personal freedom you have the nerve to think about calling yourself in any way conservative. You're not. You're running around spewing patriotism and attacking the one chance the nation has at solving its problems - examining them and trying to find solutions - by blaming them all on the people who actually know what they're talking about and want to make things better through understanding the world around them and making substantial (i.e. NOT "One nation under God") improvements.

People like you make people like me, who actually see value in limiting the power of government and promoting personal freedom, look bad by association because you seem to think you can associate yourself with the 'conservatives' who have actually done *good* things by calling yourself the same thing. At best your type could be called a 'neocon', but even that is an abuse of language. Tell me we'd still have these problems with the rest of the world if we never felt like shoving our noses in the Middle East all the time. Tell me Bush has done a good job of planning the war. Tell me the Republican-controlled Congress a few years back was able to do ANYTHING they claimed to have plans for. Don't get me wrong, I hate the Democrats too, but you need to actually look at what's going on and stop being a partisan tool or you'll just feed into the system that causes the problems you're blaming on everyone who actually reads about the world around them from *real* sources.

Patriotism isn't to be blindly handed out. It is to be earned. It's pride and trust - you wouldn't be proud of a junkheap you pulled out of a used car lot for the cost of a tank of gas, and you wouldn't trust a five-dollar hooker with much more than taking your money. Things you're proud of and put trust in have to earn them. America is earning nobody's trust, and it certainly isn't gaining the pride of those who take off the elementary-school goggles of nationalism and one-sidedness.

Jeff


----------



## garcia3441

JBroll said:


> Don't get me wrong, I hate the Democrats too,


----------



## JBroll

garcia3441 said:


>



'I hate politicians' is probably the best way for me to phrase that. They're all two-faced pigs who make any speech they have to when it's time to decide who to vote for... while I was relieved that the GOP lost control of Congress (if nothing else that sort of thing, in principle, should neuter the president - now if only our president had some idea what the Constitution was for) I have yet to see a whole hell of a lot of good come from the shiny happy promises made in the campaign season. The only difference between the parties is in the way they want to screw me over, in my eyes.

Jeff


----------



## garcia3441

JBroll said:


> 'I hate politicians' is probably the best way for me to phrase that. They're all two-faced pigs who make any speech they have to when it's time to decide who to vote for... while I was relieved that the GOP lost control of Congress (if nothing else that sort of thing, in principle, should neuter the president - now if only our president had some idea what the Constitution was for) I have yet to see a whole hell of a lot of good come from the shiny happy promises made in the campaign season. The only difference between the parties is in the way they want to screw me over, in my eyes.
> 
> Jeff



  

I figured that's what you meant. Unfortunately the election process has devolved from picking the best candidate into picking the least objectionable. And I don't see that changing until the election laws are changed. I think making it a little easier for 3rd parties to get themselves on the ballot. An election where the Republican (or Democratic) presidential candidate finishes behind a 3rd party candidate will hopefully wake these assholes up.


----------



## El Caco

JBroll said:


> Stuff



Great post, maybe the first three words were unnecessary but for the rest, well said. +rep

People should question their government, they are elected representatives, they are only human not gods to be followed blindly.

Bush =\= US. Blindly supporting everything he does is not patriotic. Fighting for the freedom of the citizens of your country and a better way of life is.

I'm not even American and I know that, some people need to do a history lesson and learn the ideals that the US was built upon.

America was the greatest country in the world, I and people the world over looked at her with admiration and respect, in my youth I dreamed of one day living there. This can not be said of the US anymore.

If anyone claims to be patriotic they can not support those who are harming that great nation.

Fight for your country, don't fight for Bush.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Vegetta said:


> I said I was a moderate not a conservative - I realize that mismanagement and unions have done more to ruin manufacturing in the US than the government. You think business subsidies are bs That is your right. I think a lot of the social programs funded by the government are BS - they don't really help anyone (enough) and like many charitable organizations use much too large a percentage of their capital on operating costs instead of getting the money to where it will and can do the most good.



Mismanagement, maybe, but the fact of the matter is, with our dollar climbing, wages increasing, and the industrialization of other countries, the US steel & auto industries were poised on the brink of failure anyways.

I'm not sure where your hatred of unions comes from -- they're a legitimate free-market tactic to give the labor force as a whole bargaining power. Obviously their old mafia ties and the like are bullshit, but those came about as a response to all the violence against them.

Are a lot of the social programs funded by the government inefficient? Probably. Free market pressures lead to the highest efficiency, and government programs are usually not subject to free market pressures. But I have to profess ignorance on the topic, because quite frankly, I have no idea what the hell to do about the problem, and I don't want to speak about something I know very little about.



> I guess you didn't get that I am not really pro Bush



IMO considering Bush to be better than Carter as a president counts as being pro-Bush in the face of his monumental failures.



> I don't think global warming is a result of mans impact on the planet. Weather is cyclical there are many periods of prolonged hot and cold.



I don't know shit about climatology. I'm willing to bet you don't know shit about it either. I think the appropriate response in the face of personal ignorance is to accept scientific consensus. I personally have no right to have an opinion on climate change. My "opinion" is simply the tacit acceptance of the peer-reviewed literature cited by the leading climatologists evidencing human involvement in global warming. 



> He didnt do much to stop it from happening - actually with all of the fucked up things he had to deal with it is a miracle he accomplished anything...



The problem with Carter is that he was simply inept. He was elected on populist, ethos, I'm-an-everyman rhetoric just like Bush was, and in both cases, it led to the wrong person being chosen for the job.



> Again, I point the finger more at unions and company mismanagement more than Carter but he certainly did nothing to help the situation.



Once again, I have the same opinion on the collapse of those industries in the 70s as I have on today's sub prime mortgage crisis. The government should not subsidize bad practice. It's their duty to provide welfare and education so that the affected people can move on, but they should not be propping up agriculture and industry the way they are.



> The area i live in *had* 2 major industries Steel and Coal. Basically in the 70s it died - The town I grew up in has less than half the population it did when I was a kid. Most towns are just urban blight... victems of the rust belt now and are populated by people to old to move.



Maybe that's where your reluctance about global warming comes from. The people you're talking about are victims of a paradigm shift, not Carter. The same sort of thing happened in the Industrial Revolution.



> Should the government bail out these industries? It is welfare of a sorts but if the companies can manage to turn things around and grow they are actually of more benefit than simple welfare. Should every company be bailed out at Your (and mine) expense? No, I don't think so either but there are other ways to help - tax breaks for example.



And once again I have to respectfully disagree. It's up to market forces to allocate resources and capital -- financial, natural, and human.



> Pass - I would honestly have no interest in living in any of those countries.



I practically live in Canada anyways (Seattle is close enough) but I'm referring to objective measures of quality of life, like life expectancy.



> I don't know you but I am going to say this - your tone is a little condescending, you jump to conclusions and think I am just another neo-con asshat that doesn't know shit from shine-ola. (I think it was pretty clear I am a moderate but oh well)



Well, to be fair, you came in and tried to push a discussion about Bush's legacy into one about Carter's, which annoys the hell out of me because it's something I see all the time. I'll be talking about Bush and the true believer Republicans will always move the discussion to Clinton. I could give a damn about Clinton, I didn't vote for him, I'm talking about Bush.



> I not going to argue with you. I can see the points you are trying to make - just don't be so shocked and angry when someone doesn't see things the way that you do.



I'm neither shocked nor angry -- most people probably disagree with me on most things. The only things that provoked any emotion in me other than the Three Mile Island thing (which made me smile) is the above and your quip about global warming. To be honest, this is why I generally prefer arguing in a completely anonymous *chan like setting, because otherwise, people always seem to think I'm attacking them personally. I'm not. Except for the thread starter. I am attacking him personally. He's ignoring everything said to him, which is intellectually lazy.


----------



## Rick

Man, I'm loving this. Keep going, guys.


----------



## Naren

Yeah, the world is ruined. I'm glad you brought that up. I actually ruined it, by the way.  Sorry about that.

I really enjoyed all the posts in this thread. It's rare that I read posts that make me as angry as some of the vicious and ignorant ones posted by NotReallythatBrootalAtallNowThatIThinkAboutIt. I just have an image in my head of him as a little kid with his fingers in his ears, going "Noooo!! That's not true!! That - that never happened!! He didn't do that! HE WOULDN'T! HE WOULDN'T!"


----------



## garcia3441

Rick said:


> Man, I'm loving this. Keep going, guys.



I'd love to keep it up, but he hasn't come back. Gee, I hope we didn't scare him off.


----------



## TomAwesome

I think running away is the first bit of common sense he's shown thus far.


----------



## garcia3441

TomAwesome said:


> I think running away is the first bit of common sense he's shown thus far.



True.


----------



## Prometheus

Man, I'm continually amazed by the posts that I read here. It's incredibly refreshing, and gives me more than a tiny bit of hope for the future, to know that not every American is a rabid war-loving Christian jingoist. Because, dudes, I hate to say it, but that is the impression the rest of the world seems to have. I mean, I'm EDUCATED  and I used to think that, based on the news I got - and get - from the States. Then again, I'm pretty sure that you're all perfectly aware of this perception, and I'm also sure that it's a MAJOR source of irritation to you guys.

It's really good to know that there are ALOT of people, liberals and conservatives alike, who have some serious issues with the current incumbent.  

Because as someone in this thread pointed out (in January sometime, I believe), America is the current behemoth on the world stage, and what America does affects EVERYONE. And, the fact that your current government can barely tie it's own shoelaces without provoking widespread hostility, well, it kinda scares everybody.

But, anyway, problems aside, I wouldn't mind living in the States! You guys ROCK!


----------



## The Dark Wolf

^ Most people here in the states can hardly stomach Bush. He stole the first election, in the midst of a time of insane cultural division (that seems to be lessening), then won on a false premise of fear the second time around, but that didn't mean everyone loved him.

Only the die-hards are really approving of him and his policies now. His ratings have been stuck in the low 30% approval/60% disapproval for awhile now.


----------



## Nick

iv not read the entire thread but about half of it and pretty much everything has been about foreign policy and what not.

One thing glaringly obvious is that Totallybrootal doesnt live in....

*NEW ORLEANS*


----------



## Prometheus

The part that always gets me is how Bush got in for a 2nd term. I can tell you, as an interested observer in a different hemisphere, watching the events unfold, I honestly thought there was NO WAY he'd win. Just absolutely no way. Came as a bit of surprise when he did - no doubt, to you guys too.

I can't decide if he's as thick as what he appears to be, or is actually pretty damn canny, because, hell, he seems to have got away with alot in his presidency, and somehow hasn't being forced to resign. Pretty impressive.


----------



## Nick

true but i thought tony blair would never get in again and in he went. Now we are stuck with another joke of a Labour government


----------



## Clydefrog

I thought it was quite clear at this point that Bush is not retarded, or an idiot.

That is the front he seems to put on to deceive people into underestimating them. That's probably how he won the second time. Everyone thought "there's no way he can win, he's too stupid," which is exactly what he WANTED you to think.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

I actually think Bush is an idiot.

But Rove? Not-on-your-life. That guy is pretty canny, and he wasn't called 'Bush's Brain' for nothing.


----------



## El Caco

I think he is an idiot.

He has given enough material for Letterman to have something new on him every night, the average politician here only stuffs up like that a few times a year.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Haha nah bro, I just love hearing all these lame excuses, these are the excuses I hear all the time. Like I said before I love this country and its not blind patriotism, yeah the country is not perfect, it never was and never will be, no country is perfect but I still show support for it, I don't go around complaining and bashing our leader and saying oh man this country sucks, thats what the terrorists want they love turning on their news and seeing people bashing our government. You guys listen to all the liberal run media who want us to lose. You guys obviously didn't vote in the last reelection.


What the terrorists want. You know, it's all about terrorism isn't it? DOn't like the way the country is run? ooh, you're a terrorist. Now, stop and think about that statement. Terrorism exists for this: Terror. Now, to inflict terror you need to make people scared of more terror and thus terrorists. You know, but saying that everything someone does like question and argue for their beliefs is letting the terrorists win, you are therefore admitting the terrorists have won against you, as you are scared that someone defending their beliefs is inciting terrorism. THink about it.

Basically, you live in a country that when i grew up was all about freedom, having your own beliefs and the whole american dream where anyone could make good of themselves. It's a country that has stuck up for freedom of expression, freedom of belief and freedom through democracy. Now these things all entail that you can say waht you want and do what you want within the laws laid down by your country.

However, with that attitude that anyone who says anything that condones torture etc is a liberal and not fit to be your country is akin to saying that anyone who does not hold the same opinion should get out of a country founded on the ideal of everyone having a different opinion. Go read your history, go look at all the fascist and police states over the years. Look at communism in the old soviet uniuon and eastern block where people were dragged from their houses by the secret police for thinking dsifferently and disagreeing with the communist party line, often to never be seen again. If you meet these people they will tell you they fought blood and tears to change their way of life, to be able to speak freely and to be able to have the freedom you currently take for granted.

Without debate, and counter debate, their can be no democracy. Without liberal and conservative ideas there can be no balance, without balance their really is no america as you know it. If you want to live in a police state with the illusion of freedom, spoonfed all your information then go ahead. But I suggest you truly research WITHOUT bias (which is a hard skill). Basically any news source is inherently unreliable untill you find out where it comes from and what their bias is, you then cross reference that with other sources to get the real picture.

Basically dude, learn to read between the lines.

And if you accuse me of being a liberal, then fine, but then look at yourself, and think about everything. Is it right to accuse someone with a different viewpoint as a traitor? Is it right to accuse someone who questions authority because he believes that they are abusive or have made a wrong decision bad, or is he the little guy fighting back against a system that is unjust and therefore ensuring that checks and balances come back into play?


----------



## Zepp88

He ran away. 

You're being a "liberal pussy" anyways


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Shaky ground dude the founders of this country were religous and believed in God strongly. As for the Pledge of allegiance being disgusting get out bro, your a disgrace for saying that, this is what I am trying to get at the fact that people do not believe in this country anymore with all these liberal retarded ideas. As for the wiretapping, you have something to hide bro your planning something. I would rather have wiretapping than go to work one day and have a fuckin plane blow it up, ok bro.


You know what, basing a country on religion, that of christianity, is the same as basing a nation on islam. Both mean a country is religiously aligned, leaving the door way open for the christian equivalent of shariah law. You want to see someone executed for calling a teddy bear jesus? Then please, go right ahead and support your country becoming christian only, and in doing so why don't you trample over the jewish people, the hindu people, the atheists, the agnostics and even the islamics on your way to christian right wing fundamentalism, which, is just another tool to subvert people, ie:
It is god's will that we do this, pass this law etc etc etc. 

Gott mit uns, (in German means "God be with us"), the motto of the Prussian emperor, it was used as a morale slogan amongst soldiers in both World Wars. It was bastardized as "Got mittens" by American and British soldiers, and is usually used nowadays, because of the German defeat in both wars, derisively to mean that wars are not won on religious grounds.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Nick said:


> iv not read the entire thread but about half of it and pretty much everything has been about foreign policy and what not.
> 
> One thing glaringly obvious is that Totallybrootal doesnt live in....
> 
> *NEW ORLEANS*



Yep. Tell you what, if you want to see terrorism against America, then go to new orleans. You can spend billions fighting a war on terror, yet can't spend the same helping people and rebuilding their homes, those same people that paid taxes to help fund that war in the first place. A nation that can't help it's own people really has no place trying to help the people in other nations.

What happened in the aftermath of Katrina, and is still happening is utterly disgusting, seeing new orleans like it is even two years after was quite frankly shocking that "#1 nation in the world" can't even take care of it's own properly.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Zepp88 said:


> He ran away.
> 
> You're being a "liberal pussy" anyways


yeah, i know , obviously when god passes judgement upon me at the end of days I am going straight to hell for not supporting der amerikanisher fuhrer (herr bush) in his religious campaign of truth, justice, oppression and misinformation


----------



## garcia3441

7 Dying Trees said:


> yeah, i know , obviously when god passes judgement upon me at the end of days I am going straight to hell for not supporting der amerikanisher fuhrer (herr bush) in his religious campaign of truth, justice, oppression and misinformation



Almost the entire membership of this forum will be on that bus with ya.


----------



## Zepp88

garcia3441 said:


> Almost the entire membership of this forum will be on that bus with ya.



 I'm already planning my sacrifice to get in good standings with Satan when I get there.


----------



## Nick

7 Dying Trees said:


> You know what, basing a country on religion, that of christianity, is the same as basing a nation on islam. Both mean a country is religiously aligned, leaving the door way open for the christian equivalent of shariah law. You want to see someone executed for calling a teddy bear jesus? Then please, go right ahead and support your country becoming christian only, and in doing so why don't you trample over the jewish people, the hindu people, the atheists, the agnostics and even the islamics on your way to christian right wing fundamentalism, which, is just another tool to subvert people, ie:
> It is god's will that we do this, pass this law etc etc etc.
> 
> Gott mit uns, (in German means "God be with us"), the motto of the Prussian emperor, it was used as a morale slogan amongst soldiers in both World Wars. It was bastardized as "Got mittens" by American and British soldiers, and is usually used nowadays, because of the German defeat in both wars, derisively to mean that wars are not won on religious grounds.



lol maybe god just chose a side


----------



## Prometheus

Man, if I was religious, I'd be SO OFFENDED right now!


----------



## Zepp88

Prometheus said:


> Man, if I was religious, I'd be SO OFFENDED right now!



Soo.....our job here is done?


----------



## BigM555

I just find it utterly hilarious that about the only guy on this forum that could have helped out BrUtAl was JBroll and his post creamed him.

Tell us how you really feel JBroll. 

Pretty sad when even the side your trying to argue for don't want you.


----------



## Nick

Prometheus said:


> Man, if I was religious, I'd be SO OFFENDED right now!



ahh, accomplishment is a great feeling


----------



## Drew

oompa said:


> but when i post a picture of equal nakedness, in a thread called "do you also hate the opposite sex", in the off-topics forum, you remove it and neg rep me?



Easy.

Selma Hayek in a dress = safe for work. 
Jessica Alba naked = not safe for work. 

Sure, her boobs are covered and her legs are tucked up in a fairly modest manner so she's not actually showing anything, but there's no mistaking a naked woman for anything other than a naked woman. Selma's got some cleavage, sure, but it's covered.


----------



## kmanick

you deleted a naked picture of Jessica Alba????
heathen!!!
200 lashes for the infidel!


----------



## Drew

It wasn't full frontal, just VERY suggestive. 

Either way, I probably should have left the link with NSFW tags...


----------



## Metal Ken

Besides, Salma Hayek > Alba.


----------



## Zepp88

Drew said:


> It wasn't full frontal, just VERY suggestive.
> 
> Either way, I probably should have left the link with NSFW tags...



Yep, that would have been the only acceptable thing to do.

Either way, both pictures are total pwn so you both win.


----------



## Chris

Keep this on topic.


----------



## Vegetta

Whoever neg repped me at least have the nuts to leave your name  

Seriously tho I found everyone to be much more reasonable than I had first expected you would be in this thread


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## Nick

Metal Ken said:


> Besides, Salma Hayek > Alba.



this is fact Salma is fucking scorching


----------



## Chris

Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.







Chris said:


> Keep this on topic.


----------



## Drew

I'm sorry I posted that picture...  

It's kind of tough to stay on topic now that the original poster seems to have lost interest in continuing the debate, but I'll try anyway. 

I seriously question your assertion that we're a robust enough economy that people will "loan us money" if we need more to get us through temporary instabilities. There are a metric fuck-ton of factors working against us now, but for kicks I'll enumerate. 

1.) *The "credit crunch."* Not only are we in the early stages of a global tightening of credit, it's one that is almost entirely homegrown. The sub-prime mortgage industry hasn't exactly hit crisis state yet, but it's more of a question of when than if at the moment. Easy credit, arguably criminally easy in a number of cases, fueled a housing boom in the united states that drove up housing prices thanks to low rates and interest-only mortgages. When those same rates started to come up partly because of the spiraling housing prices creating inflationary fears, suddenly American home buyers found themselves with mortgage payments they couldn't make, pushing them into default. Because loans had been made so freely, then packaged as securities and sold off by the banks lending, there was both little regulation on the loans themselves, and a LOT of people got left holding the bag. It's also making it incredibly difficult to assess the scope of the damage, because most of the people holding the MBS's are removed by two or three orders from the actual loans. Pursuing leverage for increased return is beginning to come back to bite us in the ass in a major way. 

So, there's two factors in play here, both troublesome. First, loans are defaulting because interest rates are rising. Second, because this crunch has been a wake-up call that investing in mortgage backed securities does in fact carry risk, people are beginning to require a higher "risk premium" over and above the prime rate before they're willing to commit their money. so, not only have interest rates themselves risen, but the premium required for an additional return on investment is also going up. This is a double whammy that represents an effective major tightening on credit - the interest rate required to secure a loan has gone up tremendously. 

2.)* Concerns about the stability of the USD/exposure to foreign currency risk. * Again, the dollar has fallen against the Euro by more than 40% under the Bush administration. For international investors within the European Union, that means they would have required an annualized return of somewhere in the ballpark of 6% a year to even _break even_ on investments within the US economy. Considering for the seven years ending 11/07 the S&P500 Total return is up an annualized 3.4%, that means on average any properly diversified investment within our economy has actually _lost_ about three percent a year under the Bush administration. So, where exactly is this incentive to invest you're talking about? Sure, our economy's been chugging along just fine for the last couple years, until 2007 anyhow, but when you stop looking at it in base-USD terms and consider it from the standpoint of the second-most-widely-used currency, suddenly we're hemorrhaging. 

3.)* Required return on investment for international investors.* This is really just an extension of #2. If the USD is falling at approximately 6% a year, then that's one additional risk premium that must be compensated for while internationals decide whether or not to invest in American assets, or assets from another nation. The "Do I or Don't I Invest?" decision is obviously a complex one, but at it's most basic, you calculate your required rate of return by taking the prime rate and adding a "risk premium" representing the amount of return you need to see on your investment to make it worth actually investing, instead of using your money elsewhere (you'd calculate your return in this manner in basically the same way, except you'd be using your return on available assets as a benchmark - i.e - "how much value do I add by making this investment, as opposed to allowing my assets to continue to perform as they have been?). So, here, we're starting with the prime rate, currently 4.5%. To this, right off the bat we're adding another 6% worth of exchange rate risk, to account for reasonably-expected losses due to the falling USD-to-EUR exchange rate. We're now at 10.5%. To this you then need to account for the riskiness of the investment. For kicks, let's assume you're talking about T-Bills, which are considered relatively safe and carry little to none default risk, as government issued bonds. Even if this is the _only_ risk you're looking at, what's the last time you've seen a bond return a consistent 10% a year? Yet, to attract international investment, that's the interest rate we'd have to offer if the dollar continues to fall. 

Which begs the question, who in their right mind would buy US government debt right now, unless they had reason to believe that the worst was already over with the sub-prime scare (it's not), and the USD was about to start climbing rapidly against the Euro (and I wouldn't hold my breath)? 

No one's going to bail us out unless they think and American recession would do more damage to their own economy than any potential loss of return would represent to them, and with the strengthening of the European Union and the rise of third world economies, we're no longer as central as we used to be. Unless something pulls the dollar out of it's tailspin, we've got problems.


----------



## ohio_eric

Prometheus said:


> Man, if I was religious, I'd be SO OFFENDED right now!




Oddly enough I am religious and nothing said on this thread really offends me.  

I notice that a lot of people on here tend to think that being religious turns you into Pat Robertson. It doesn't. Many religious people understand and want seperation of church and state, knowing full well what happens when you fuse the two, and aren't hate mongers. A bumper sticker my friend has says it best, "I support the seperation of church and hate." 

Sadly the empty cans rattle the most when it comes to religion in this country. So the people like the Catholic Workers, Quakers and such get no mention in the mainstream but asshats like Pat Robertson never seem to shut up.


----------



## Chris

Drew said:


> I'm sorry I posted that picture...
> 
> It's kind of tough to stay on topic now that the original poster seems to have lost interest in continuing the debate, but I'll try anyway.



I'm referring to the folks complaining about eRep.


----------



## Drew

Oh.


----------



## Stitch

Drew said:


> 2.)* Concerns about the stability of the USD/exposure to foreign currency risk. * Again, the dollar has fallen against the Euro by more than 40% under the Bush administration. For international investors within the European Union, that means they would have required an annualized return of somewhere in the ballpark of 6% a year to even _break even_ on investments within the US economy. Considering for the seven years ending 11/07 the S&P500 Total return is up an annualized 3.4%, that means on average any properly diversified investment within our economy has actually _lost_ about three percent a year under the Bush administration. So, where exactly is this incentive to invest you're talking about? Sure, our economy's been chugging along just fine for the last couple years, until 2007 anyhow, but when you stop looking at it in base-USD terms and consider it from the standpoint of the second-most-widely-used currency, suddenly we're hemorrhaging.



I'm glad you've brought this up - its just about the only topic that I'm genuinely interested in - how the US $ continues to be used as the international currency, yet its comparable value has done nothing but dive. I mean, right now £1 buys me more than $2. Thats obscene. And its just not limited to the UK economy. While ours has got a LOT stronger, the US dollar is definitely in decline. When I first went to Japan you got JUST over ¥200. When I went this year it was sitting comfortable at ¥230+. I can't remember the exact numbers, but the $ had gone exactly the other way.



Drew said:


> Which begs the question, who in their right mind would buy US government debt right now, unless they had reason to believe that the worst was already over with the sub-prime scare (it's not), and the USD was about to start climbing rapidly against the Euro (and I wouldn't hold my breath)?
> 
> No one's going to bail us out unless they think and American recession would do more damage to their own economy than any potential loss of return would represent to them, and with the strengthening of the European Union and the rise of third world economies, we're no longer as central as we used to be. Unless something pulls the dollar out of it's tailspin, we've got problems.



What is the deal with China? Last thing I understood was that it had invested in about 33% of your debt, while simultaneously playing wargames with nuclear submarines in the middle of supposedly 'impenetrably safe' U.S Naval exercises. But you are right. While I don't think the US is going under, it isn't the big cheese it used to be. Its going through a whole bunch of problems right now from year of ignoring them - rising oil prices, global warming, theocracies, stem cell debates - that while you're busy sorting them out (Which you WILL have to, no matter how long you ignore it) the rest of the world (Asia, Africa, perhaps even the Middle East) and definitely the E.U will have pulled themselves together as much stronger entities. I'm not saying they will dominate you, but they will NOT be as reliant as they have been in the past on the US. The whole "you're with us or against us" thing did a lot to jade the rest of the world to the US. The nonsense with 'Freedom Mustard' and 'Freedom Fries' was the final straw for me - that was childish, childish behaviour from what was supposedly the most forward and open-minded nation.

Oh, and the Economist is a great magazine. Excellent choice sir.


----------



## noodles

Man do we ever have Bush to thank for every single bit of this. I remeber the dollar was strong, and still climbing, when Clinton left office. The US was absolutely dominating every other economy in the world. Then dipshit had to take office and ruin everything. Really, all he had to do was stay in his office, play with sock puppets, and everything would be fine.

I'm waiting for the Euro to become the new world currency standard. Then the dollar will drop a whole lot more. China has completely destroyed the manufacturing industry in this country, and there is not a damn thing we can do about it. We try to pressure them now, and they'll just call us on the tab. Bankrupting the US government would make the Great Depression look like a case of Christmas shopping debt.

Everything literally changed in just six years. Just six years to go from a total economic power house to worse than we were in the early nineties.


----------



## Drew

Stitch said:


> The nonsense with 'Freedom Mustard' and 'Freedom Fries' was the final straw for me - that was childish, childish behaviour from what was supposedly the most forward and open-minded nation.



...and let's not talk about all the cases of (often very expensive) French wine that was dumped out on the streets of America. Hell, I'm sorry this was while I was still a broke college student, if I'd been able to afford to tuck away a few cases worth of Bordeaux when nobody wanted it, I'd be a happy camper indeed today. 

But yeah, that was an embarrassing low point in our recent national history...

Anyway, I'll take your two questions individually. No pretense of absolute accuracy here, just my read, as both are very complex issues that I'm sure others understand better than myself. 

*The US Dollar* - Honestly, I think at this point it's more due to tradition than anything else. I'd need to bone up on my economic history a bit more, but I believe the NYSE was the first major stock exchange in the global marketplace, and I'm pretty sure we had that market basically cornered up until about the 50's, when you began to see stock exhanges where you could buy shares in large numbers of publically traded companies at once. This wasn't without growing pains the rest of the world missed - see the 1890's and 1930's - but it certainly gave us an edge in the international economy thanks to the head start. 

There's a ton of other factors in play too, I'm sure, and I suspect the American standard of living has a lot to do with it too - Americans have historically had a very high disposable income, and accordingly the commodity market has probably seen the most demand from people weilding USD-denominated bank accounts. This is something else that's changing, with the westernizing of Asia and the rising household credit debt in the States. In fact, that's the real danger of the sub-prime crisis, IMO, that so many Americans have been living beyond their means for years now, and as credit tightens their interest payments are going to begin to rise substantially. I'm not preaching hellfire and damnation just yet, but there's no denying that this could get ugly. 

*China* - I don't know how else to describe it other than economic brinksmanship - there's going to be a lot of posturing on both sides here, but frankly both nations need each other too badly right now for anything serious to come of it. We've got issues with the Chinese on their human rights credentials, on copyright infringement grounds, and there's been a lot of talk in the news recently about the safety (or lack thereof) oof Chinese products. I don't know the Chinese side of it well enough to speak for them, but I'm sure they've got their issues with the States too, and it'd shock me if some of them at least aren't well grounded. 

So, why do they control 30% of American debt? Well, we're running a massive trade deficit, so we're buying much more than we're selling and the net cashflow out of the country is huge. This needs to get covered somehow, and since we've been unwilling to roll back some of Bush's more ill-thought-out tax cuts and unable to check his spending (see the Iraq War budget), then issuing government debt on the open marketplace is the most logical option. Sure, this costs us a lot in interest, but it keeps the machine lubed up and running smoothly, so to speak. 

So, why the Chinese? Because we're a nation of consumers, they're a nation of producers, and they need the market too badly. If America fell completely into recession and had to significantly scale back imports (because no Americans could afford to buy anything), then the Chinese would suddenly be left without their most reliable market. Demand drops, supply suddenly grossly exceeds demand, and they've got issues. So, regardless of whatever else happens, for the time being they need a captive audience of consumers to buy their products, so it's in their continued best interest to purchase American debt so that we can continue to buy their products. This is true on the other side of the coin, where so far it's been more cost-effective to keep this huge trade imbalance and sell debt (and pay large amounts of interest) to the Chinese to ensure a steady supply of cheap imports. All the political posturing, while not exactly meaningless, needs to be taken within this backdrop of an economic necessity that blurs the line between symbiotic and parasitic. 

And that's why the collapse of the dollar is so scary - it throws a major spoke into the wheel of this product. As the Dollar/Yuan ratio drops, two things happen. First, the cost of Chinese imports in USD terms goes up. The dollar bought you 8.25 yuan this time in 2000, and currently will only buy you 7.45 (thankfully a slide much less than the EUR). So, a product that cost you $10 back in 2000 would now cost about $11.07, an increase of almost 11% due solely to the exchange rate. This cost is passed on to American consumers, who at least for the lower-0to-middle classes are already struggling to make ends meet. On a $10 purchase, an extra buck doesn't seem like much, but if you're taking a grand or ten grand, suddenly that's $100 or $1,000, which begins to seem much less insignificant. 

Second, as the dollar falls relative to the yuan, the interest paid on American debt (which is paid in the currency it is denominated in, USD), begins to decrease as well. A $1mm bond paying 7% in 2000 would have paid 577,500 yuan, whereas today it would only pay 521,500 yuan. Again, 11% drop in yeild. This makes USD investments much less attractive to the Chinese government, and lessens the incentive for them to keep purchasing American debt. If that margin ever tightens up to the point where the impact of losing the American market would be less than the continued drop in interest payments, then suddenly they have no reason to continue to buy American debt and we have issues (to be fair, the reverse is true, but I don't see the USD/CNY exchange rate coming up to like 14 yuen on the dollar anytime soon).


----------



## Stitch

Thats a great description of how it works. Thanks dude! 

About disposable household income - just how much of an income is 'disposable' in the States? How much do you get taxed before you can spend anything? And how much are you taxed AS you spend something? 

One last question - since someone from the states can answer this much better than any Brit: How did the Canadian Dollar come to be so strong against the US one? Is this a case of the USD going down or the CDN going up - if the latter, why? What does the CDN have to strengthen its position with?


----------



## Drew

noodles said:


> We try to pressure them now, and they'll just call us on the tab. Bankrupting the US government would make the Great Depression look like a case of Christmas shopping debt.



The one thing we have going for us, Dave, is that the Chinese hold American bonds, and that accordingly it's not a straight-up loan. They can't collect whenever they feel like it, but rather we have a structured agreement in place where we pay them interest at a particular rate for X number of years, and then repay the principle at the conclusion of the period. So it's not like the Chinese can ever call up the president and say "Honor these bills, now." 

However, that leaves us exposed in two regards - for one, we have to be able to stay on top of our interest payments. American Treasury debt is considered about as safe as an investment as there is because the weight of the US Government is behind it. It's the textbook example of "riskless" investment. If, god forbid, that would ever change and our outrstanding loans were so large that we could no longer meet interest payments and had to default, we'd find ourselves in an economic apoocalypse. 

Second, this is less true of bonds than it is of stocks, in that boonds have guaranteed cashflows associated with them. However, to a certain extent, debt pricing is still influenced by demand. If the Chinese were to ever say, 
"screw this, we no longer wish to hold American debt," and liquidated their entire portfolio, then suddenly that 30% of our debt they'd been holding would be back on the market, where (partly due to the fact the Chinese had just sold off _in toto_, which would undoubtably terrify investors) the demand would not be able to keep up with the sudden glut. Accordingly, T-bills would suddenly begin to sell for less than their present value based on future cashflows would indicate they should be priced at, and the value of US debt would plummet. On one hand this would make it slightly easier for the government to pay it off... but on the other, well, again we'd find the fundamental risk characteristics of a T-bill to have changed radically, and the shake up (especially) at home and (to a lesser degree) abroad would be huge. 

The odds of the first scenario occuring are, for the time being, quite low, and the second (as it would essentially amount to economic warfare and would remove the main reason for the political posturing not coming to anything) quite remote, as well, but it _is_ possible.


----------



## Drew

Stitch said:


> Thats a great description of how it works. Thanks dude!
> 
> About disposable household income - just how much of an income is 'disposable' in the States? How much do you get taxed before you can spend anything? And how much are you taxed AS you spend something?
> 
> One last question - since someone from the states can answer this much better than any Brit: How did the Canadian Dollar come to be so strong against the US one? Is this a case of the USD going down or the CDN going up - if the latter, why? What does the CDN have to strengthen its position with?



Well, we have a rolling taxation system. All told, between federal and state income taxes, a typical American wage-earner will be paying maybe 33%-36% of their income as taxes, between straight up tax and social security, ect. 

For taxes AS we spend, sales tax varies by state. Some dont have one, I believe, whereas others have fairly high ones. In Massachusetts, sales tax is 5%, with certain exceptions (food and clothing, for instance, are not taxed). Additionally, some items have state or federal taxes applied - I believe alcohol has a few additional taxes applied before the price we see on a bottle on the shelves, and cigarettes are taxed I believe on a federal level. We don't have anything like your VAT on imports, however. 

For the Canadian dollar, I'm not 100% sure, but my guess is it just was a product of the absolute collapse of the USD. We've gone down against all currencies in the last five or so years, some more than others. I can't point to anything in particular over and above the devaluation of the USD, but I suspect free trade agreements have also helped push the value of our currencies closer together. Evidently it's a big problem for the Canadian government due to the loss of tourism from Americans, and the fact so many Canadians live close enough to the US border that they can drive down and go shopping, and save a LOT of money on the exchange rates, which is seriously hurting Canadian tax revinue.


----------



## Vegetta

I have a bit of experience with Chinese manufacturing - Id like to share a bit about it if i may...

One of my clients are a multi national Machining & Manufacturing firm that makes custom and OEM parts for several large heavy industrial equipment manufacturers, off shore oil wells and mining equipment.

They purchased a production facility in China for 2 reasons. The first reason is for simple large runs of product it is more economically sound to have items created there. The second reason was to help one of their main partners establish a presence in mainland China (and in effect open the door for increased equipment sales in China - China is a huge mostly untapped market for Western goods).

The problem is even simple parts are not passing quality control. I am talking basic parts here - hydraulic cylinders and rods. They cannot get production standards set to an acceptable level. This is with a highly experienced Chinese management team. I shudder to think what would happen to a westerne managed company there.... 

This is a common problem with many technical manufacturing facilities in mainland China. 

Unless China is able to increase quality of production I think a lot of the manufacturing facilities will remain soft goods and simple items (basically Wall-Mart junk)


----------



## BigM555

Stitch said:


> One last question - since someone from the states can answer this much better than any Brit: How did the Canadian Dollar come to be so strong against the US one? Is this a case of the USD going down or the CDN going up - if the latter, why? What does the CDN have to strengthen its position with?



I'm far from being an economics expert so someone else may have more light to shed here but I believe it's a combination of factors.

Certainly the slide of the American dollar has helped prop up the Canadian dollar, at least on paper. In the long run it sucks for tourism and exports to our biggest trading partner, the US. Canadian goods simply cost more in the US now.

That said, the Canadian economy is doing pretty well on it's own. Alberta is laughing their way to the bank because as the price of oil has continued to rise the costs associated with extracting it from the tar sands, possibly the largest cache on earth, have become less significant. This has lead to enormous investment in Canada's West. They are literally begging for people to come fill jobs.

In other technological sectors (medical, aeronautical) we have also continued to do well and draw foreign investment.

All the while productivity has continued to increase and wage increases have been held to moderate levels.


----------



## Drew

I just came back from a seven-week business trip training staff in India, bro - you're preaching to the choir. 

What scares me is not the QC issues, but rather the emphasis placed on the statistics and not the actual data; issues are covered up to preserve quality metrics, rather than communicated so that they can be resolved. I'm ok with a team that makes mistakes, but a team that I can't trust to provide accurate assessments of the work being done scares the shit out of me.


----------



## Drew

BigM555 said:


> I'm far from being an economics expert so someone else may have more light to shed here but I believe it's a combination of factors.
> 
> Certainly the slide of the American dollar has helped prop up the Canadian dollar, at least on paper. In the long run it sucks for tourism and exports to our biggest trading partner, the US. Canadian goods simply cost more in the US now.
> 
> That said, the Canadian economy is doing pretty well on it's own. Alberta is laughing their way to the bank because as the price of oil has continued to rise the costs associated with extracting it from the tar sands, possibly the largest cache on earth, have become less significant. This has lead to enormous investment in Canada's West. They are literally begging for people to come fill jobs.
> 
> In other technological sectors (medical, aeronautical) we have also continued to do well and draw foreign investment.
> 
> All the while productivity has continued to increase and wage increases have been held to moderate levels.



Bah. Fuckin' syrup-eating little bitches.  



/jealousy


----------



## BigM555

You know you want it!


----------



## Vegetta

Stitch said:


> Thats a great description of how it works. Thanks dude!
> 
> About disposable household income - just how much of an income is 'disposable' in the States? How much do you get taxed before you can spend anything? And how much are you taxed AS you spend something?



A lot of that varies from state to state.

Taxes are split into Federal, state and local - additionally you have to contribute to OSI (Social security)

Additionally many states have property taxes on Real estate.

In Pennsylvania (where I live) you must pay an annual property tax.

In West Virginia (the state I work in) there are not taxes on property but there are annual taxes on vehicles (where you must pay a % of the value of all of your vehicles). My buddy had a ford explorer that was a few years old and his tax for it was like $650.00. Basically if you live in a multi vehicle household you end up paying the same in either state (The man gets his paper no matter what!)

Disposable income -- that is kind of a gray area - I've known people that make 6 figures but are up to their eyeballs in debt. 

You have to claim any interest you make over a certain amount. (400 dollars I believe) on your federal income tax and banks dont really offer that great a return on savings accounts (or Cds for that matter).

Personally, I'm not uber rich or anything but i can pretty much afford anything I feel like buying (within reason - no new Porche for me  ) I don't have any children though and they really dig at the disposable income.


----------



## JBroll

BigM555 said:


> I just find it utterly hilarious that about the only guy on this forum that could have helped out BrUtAl was JBroll and his post creamed him.
> 
> Tell us how you really feel JBroll.
> 
> Pretty sad when even the side your trying to argue for don't want you.



I think it's important to note that I am not a neocon and neocons are not the 'intellectual' type of conservatives - they're the fundagelical revisionist loons who call themselves conservatives because then they can blame everything on liberals. I also hate both of the current parties because they're both increasing government size and power. What's more, I'm pretty sure I can hate Bush more than even most people on here for (in addition to making a mess out of anything he's touched) trying to associate neocon bullshit with the conservative Goldwater was - the conservative that was the last breath the Republican party could hold and that every Republican has since failed to be. Finally, I think that religion is an embarrassment and don't feel any need to be associated with it. There's really not much I have in common with this guy, and that's why I have a problem with people like him thinking they can call themselves conservatives. He's not. He's the modern-day equivalent of what people fought to the death against in the 1940s - an irrationally single-minded nationalist, impervious to reason and evidence because he already knows everything.

Jeff


----------



## BigM555

No offense was intended if thats the way it came across. To the contrary actually. 

For the most part I'm a Centrist (yeah, yeah, nasty word I know, deal with it) but I lean a little left. In my own little world I believe that allows me to see both sides with a rational mindset. I can appreciate that you have different views than myself. I respect your ability to articulate your arguments.

Intelligent debate from both sides is what can lead to deeper understanding and, who knows, perhaps even a sollution.  

The OP had all the ability of a can of tuna when it came to arguing a point. As has already been pointed out, his original post asked for reasons and then when they were presented it became immediately obvious that he was unwilling to accept ANY of them. No debate, no discussion, no reasoning, just YOU'RE WRONG.  

Seems the mentality of a prepubescent. 

While I don't necessarily agree with all your views, they've always been presented poignantly and with intelligence (if not a little brazen ). I actually intended it as a compliment to you as much as a slight to him (see post #39).

My apologies if it seemed backhanded.


Oh, and all things said, I don't think you've ever come across as a neo-con.


----------



## JBroll

None taken, I just don't see how even I could defend this guy.

Jeff


----------



## Luan

He invaded Iraq with an excuse that have never been proved by anyone, and people from iraq and US died, but who cares, now bush have petrol.


----------



## Jongpil Yun

Luan said:


> He invaded Iraq with an excuse that have never been proved by anyone, and people from iraq and US died, but who cares, now bush have petrol.



I'm still waiting for that petrol... I mean, gas is like 3.20/gal now. I thought somebody in the Bush administration said the Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the war?


----------



## garcia3441

Jongpil Yun said:


> I'm still waiting for that petrol... I mean, gas is like 3.20/gal now. I thought somebody in the Bush administration said the Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the war?



Gas is _only_ $2.93 a gallon here. I guess since this state went for Bush in the last election we get the discount first.


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Well said, Jeff. I'm a bit of an intellectual conservative myself, in some ways, and consider Goldwater something of a personal hero.

This modern crew has nothing, and I mean nothing, in common with thoughtful, reasoned conservatism. Goldwater wasn't much of a fan of them, either.


----------



## JBroll

Yeah, he himself warned us about people like that.

Jeff


----------



## Nick

Jongpil Yun said:


> I'm still waiting for that petrol... I mean, gas is like 3.20/gal now. I thought somebody in the Bush administration said the Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the war?



lol its like $2.20 a litre here!!


----------



## garcia3441

Nick said:


> lol its like $2.20 a litre here!!



 And that's how much per gallon?


----------



## Naren

garcia3441 said:


> And that's how much per gallon?



About $8.31

In Japan right now, gas is about $1.40 a liter, which is about $5.29 a gallon.


----------



## Nick

1 gallon = 4.55 litres

your talking just under $10 per gallon

If our gas prices were like yours there would be partys in the streets.


----------



## Naren

Nick said:


> 1 gallon = 4.55 litres
> 
> your talking just under $10 per gallon
> 
> If our gas prices were like yours there would be partys in the streets.



Actually... 1 gallon = 3.7854118 liters


----------



## garcia3441

Naren said:


> Actually... 1 gallon = 3.7854118 liters



WikiAnswers - How many liters are in one gallon

That's the part that threw me.


----------



## Naren

garcia3441 said:


> WikiAnswers - How many liters are in one gallon
> 
> That's the part that threw me.



Ah ha! So Nick was thinking of a UK gallon and I was thinking of a US gallon.

Well, either way, it would be in US gallons since US gas prices are in US gallons.

Therefore the conversion that I wrote would be correct.


----------



## Nick

haha but i was still right 

you were just more right.

still though if folk in the USA had to pay $8.31 it would be anarchy time lol


----------



## JBroll

No, it would be battery time.

Actually, wait... that might be a *good* thing...

*plots scheme to make gasoline even more ridiculously expensive for the entire world*

Jeff


----------



## Naren

Nick said:


> haha but i was still right
> 
> you were just more right.
> 
> still though if folk in the USA had to pay $8.31 it would be anarchy time lol



You were right in that UK gallons are 4.55 liters.

But my price of $8.31 would be an accurate conversion, while your gallon rate would be $10.01 which would be even more ridiculous.

Yeah, it would be anarchy in the US if gas prices got that expensive (without the dollar inflating as well). I can't even imagine $10 for a gallon of gas. That could cost over $100 to fill your tank.


----------



## Toshiro

It would be time to buy a bicycle.


----------



## Naren

Or buy a house right next to where you work.


----------



## Stitch

Naren said:


> You were right in that UK gallons are 4.55 liters.
> 
> But my price of $8.31 would be an accurate conversion, while your gallon rate would be $10.01 which would be even more ridiculous.
> 
> Yeah, it would be anarchy in the US if gas prices got that expensive (without the dollar inflating as well). I can't even imagine $10 for a gallon of gas. That could cost over $100 to fill your tank.



As it stands, a saloon car over here will quite happily cost over £40 to fill up - $82.60.

Regardless of inflation or lack thereof of the USD, you guys simply don't pay what your petrol is worth, and you don't get taxed the obscene amount we do. Of the $2.20 per litre, between $1.20 and $1.60 is tax - I can't remember the exact figure.


----------



## Naren

Stitch said:


> As it stands, a saloon car over here will quite happily cost over £40 to fill up - $82.60.
> 
> Regardless of inflation or lack thereof of the USD, you guys simply don't pay what your petrol is worth, and you don't get taxed the obscene amount we do. Of the $2.20 per litre, between $1.20 and $1.60 is tax - I can't remember the exact figure.



Then why HAVE a car? I really don't see the point. I mean, in most parts of the US, a car is absolutely necessary to get anywhere, but in many parts of Europe, it isn't (not all, obviously).

I don't have a car here in Japan or a motorcycle. Even if someone gave me one, I'd sell it immediately. They're just more expensive than they're worth: insurance, the cost of the vehicle itself, the insane price of gas, the costs involved for keeping it checked up and fixing it when it breaks... I'm glad that I live in a country where I am not inconvenienced at all by not owning an "automobile."

Edit: And I don't see why the British government is raping you on taxes. It'd be expensive enough JUST paying the taxes alone.


----------



## Toshiro

Our entire infrastructure is based on the automobile, this is why people over here flip out over gas prices.

We've dug our own grave on this one.


----------



## garcia3441

Naren said:


> Edit: And I don't see why the British government is raping you on taxes. It'd be expensive enough JUST paying the taxes alone.



To help pay for their social services.

(Correct me if I'm wrong.)


----------



## Nick

Naren said:


> Then why HAVE a car? I really don't see the point. I mean, in most parts of the US, a car is absolutely necessary to get anywhere, but in many parts of Europe, it isn't (not all, obviously).
> 
> I don't have a car here in Japan or a motorcycle. Even if someone gave me one, I'd sell it immediately. They're just more expensive than they're worth: insurance, the cost of the vehicle itself, the insane price of gas, the costs involved for keeping it checked up and fixing it when it breaks... I'm glad that I live in a country where I am not inconvenienced at all by not owning an "automobile."
> 
> Edit: And I don't see why the British government is raping you on taxes. It'd be expensive enough JUST paying the taxes alone.



because our public transportation system is for want of a better phrase 'fucking shit'

If i want to get to my home from the city centre after 11pm at night and without owning a car i have 2 options Pay for a cab which would run me $22 ish or walk in which case i would be home approximatley 3 and a half hours after leaving  

Our public transport is also expensive. So owning a vehicle is the lesser fo 2 evils really.

Most european countries have great public transport which runs 24/7 but we have very few services like that here in glasgow and none that run anywhere near where i live.


----------



## Stitch

^ What Nick said.

Its hardly an issue for me now - I live less than one minute from the city centre - but in my old house, out on the suburbs, you had one bus every half an hour. It meandered into town taking 45 minutes to achieve a journey that takes 20 in the car, charged me £2.30 (almost $5) for the privelage - and that was one-way - I then had to pay that coming home too. It stopped running at about 10pm and didnt start again til 6am, so you either didn't have nights out or you stayed with friends.

Parking is a bitch over here too, but at least in a car you don't get the baolute fucking NUTTERS you do on the public transport system, which seems to be the den of the drunk, homeless, 15&pregnant and the religious loons who are very ill in the head.

The car doesn't smell of cider, vomit, urine and smoke, either.


----------



## Nick

garcia3441 said:


> To help pay for their social services.
> 
> (Correct me if I'm wrong.)




sorry wait a minute while i wipe the coke i just sprayed all over my monitor off...

Our social services are absolutley horrible.

If i need some sort of surgery i could wait like 4 months before its done. even if its time sensitive.

I play for my countrys basketball team. if i want to play basketball in a regulation size gym it will cost me roughly £100 to rent the gym for an hr and in some places double that.

When i lived in america i could walk into an open gym session for free.

There were outdoor courts all over the place allong with places people could play football and baseball.

we hardly have any outdoor facilities here at all basketball courts are very rare and even soccer pitches which youd think would be all over the place are few and far between and the ones that are there are not maintained and so end up getting ripped down or left to fall down, grass gets overgrown etc.

(im using sport as an example here as its one im familiar with)

When we say we get raped on tax we really mean it because we give them something and never get it back!!!!!

the only people that benifit from our high taxation are people who break the law and or take drugs and who really dont deserve anything.

    

rant\


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Stitch said:


> ^ What Nick said.
> 
> Its hardly an issue for me now - I live less than one minute from the city centre - but in my old house, out on the suburbs, you had one bus every half an hour. It meandered into town taking 45 minutes to achieve a journey that takes 20 in the car, charged me £2.30 (almost $5) for the privelage - and that was one-way - I then had to pay that coming home too. It stopped running at about 10pm and didnt start again til 6am, so you either didn't have nights out or you stayed with friends.
> 
> Parking is a bitch over here too, but at least in a car you don't get the baolute fucking NUTTERS you do on the public transport system, which seems to be the den of the drunk, homeless, 15&pregnant and the religious loons who are very ill in the head.
> 
> The car doesn't smell of cider, vomit, urine and smoke, either.



Welcome to almost _every_ city in the US, Stitch. Our public transit, with a few exceptions (New York, DC, Boston... maybe Philly and Chicago) is abysmal. Utterly.


----------



## garcia3441

The Dark Wolf said:


> Our public transit, with a few exceptions (New York, DC, Boston... maybe Philly and Chicago) is abysmal. Utterly.



The closest bus stop to my house is about 9.5 miles.


----------



## garcia3441

Nick said:


> If i need some sort of surgery i could wait like 4 months before its done. even if its time sensitive.



Thankfully I didn't have to wait, but within weeks of being unable to pay I started getting calls from collection agencies.





> There were outdoor courts all over the place allong with places people could play football and baseball.
> 
> we hardly have any outdoor facilities here at all basketball courts are very rare and even soccer pitches which youd think would be all over the place are few and far between and the ones that are there are not maintained and so end up getting ripped down or left to fall down, grass gets overgrown etc.



Here you'd better have a gun. The neighborhoods that the outdoor courts are located aren't exactly the safest.


----------



## Nick

true the public transport for where i lived in MO was....well there wasnt any!!

However you guys dont get raped first on the price of learning to drive (we must now sit a minimum of 20 lessons usually priced around £17.50 ($35 each) so $700 to take lessons we then have to sit a theory test which i passed first time and cost me $40 for the pleaseure but if you fail you need to pay each time and keep sitting it till you pass. You then have to sit the practical test which will cost your around $160 and is the same that if you fail you pay each time you re sit.

Then you pass and you get raped on the price of buying a car you can get old cheap shit ones but if you want something half decent you pay out the ass for it. Then you need insurance which for young people in our country is a fucking nightmare. Some of my friends in america were driving 5l V8 trans am firebirds at the age of 17. Insurance here for that car for a 17 year old would cost about $2-3000 a year (yes your read that right).

Then you get raped on the price of petrol.

Rule Britania...


----------



## El Caco

Well you guys have described our public transport in major cities, where I live we have school bus, one taxi and a bus that leaves town once a day.


----------



## Nick

garcia3441 said:


> Here you'd better have a gun. The neighborhoods that the outdoor courts are located aren't exactly the safest.




I played on many, and against a few dodgey looking characters but there was respect for the game and i never had any problems.

Also people didnt feel the need to destroy the baskets for the sake of it and they were always maintained.


----------



## Stitch

The Dark Wolf said:


> Welcome to almost _every_ city in the US, Stitch. Our public transit, with a few exceptions (New York, DC, Boston... maybe Philly and Chicago) is abysmal. Utterly.



Yes, but my point is that this is negated by the relatively low cost of petrol, vehicles, learning to drive...

Over here BOTH are bloody expensive.

And what Nick said is totally right - the majority of state benefits go to people like the smackhead couple I followed walking home today - shouting and weaving , hitting each other and grinning their toothless smile. Creeps.


----------



## Nick

Stitch said:


> And what Nick said is totally right - the majority of state benefits go to people like the smackhead couple I followed walking home today - shouting and weaving , hitting each other and grinning their toothless smile. Creeps.



lol so true


----------



## The Dark Wolf

Stitch said:


> Yes, but my point is that this is negated by the relatively low cost of petrol, vehicles, learning to drive...



 I wasn't disagreeing with you...

Just adding some commentary.


----------



## Stitch

The Dark Wolf said:


> I wasn't disagreeing with you...
> 
> Just adding some commentary.



I know, sweetheart.

I just didn't want some jumped 14 year old using it as a stepping stone to jump at me from. I know YOU weren't saying what you said to deflate my argument, but some others may have done.


----------



## garcia3441

Nick said:


> I played on many, and against a few dodgey looking characters but there was respect for the game and i never had any problems.
> 
> Also people didnt feel the need to destroy the baskets for the sake of it and they were always maintained.



That doesn't describe any of the courts here in Little Rock.


----------



## garcia3441

Nick said:


> you can get old cheap shit ones but if you want something half decent you pay out the ass for it.




[off-topic]A few years ago I bought a 1976 Reliant Scimitar on Ebay.


----------



## garcia3441

Nick said:


> true the public transport for where i lived in MO was....well there wasnt any!!
> 
> However you guys dont get raped first on the price of learning to drive (we must now sit a minimum of 20 lessons usually priced around £17.50 ($35 each) so $700 to take lessons we then have to sit a theory test which i passed first time and cost me $40 for the pleaseure but if you fail you need to pay each time and keep sitting it till you pass. You then have to sit the practical test which will cost your around $160 and is the same that if you fail you pay each time you re sit.
> 
> Then you pass and you get raped on the price of buying a car you can get old cheap shit ones but if you want something half decent you pay out the ass for it. Then you need insurance which for young people in our country is a fucking nightmare. Some of my friends in america were driving 5l V8 trans am firebirds at the age of 17. Insurance here for that car for a 17 year old would cost about $2-3000 a year (yes your read that right).
> 
> Then you get raped on the price of petrol.
> 
> Rule Britania...



Damn!!!


----------



## Stitch

garcia3441 said:


> [off-topic]A few years ago I bought a 1976 Reliant Scimitar on Ebay.



I fuckin' love that car! Which version did you get?


----------



## Grom

Nick said:


> true the public transport for where i lived in MO was....well there wasnt any!!
> 
> However you guys dont get raped first on the price of learning to drive (we must now sit a minimum of 20 lessons usually priced around £17.50 ($35 each) so $700 to take lessons we then have to sit a theory test which i passed first time and cost me $40 for the pleaseure but if you fail you need to pay each time and keep sitting it till you pass. You then have to sit the practical test which will cost your around $160 and is the same that if you fail you pay each time you re sit.
> 
> Then you pass and you get raped on the price of buying a car you can get old cheap shit ones but if you want something half decent you pay out the ass for it. Then you need insurance which for young people in our country is a fucking nightmare. Some of my friends in america were driving 5l V8 trans am firebirds at the age of 17. Insurance here for that car for a 17 year old would cost about $2-3000 a year (yes your read that right).
> 
> Then you get raped on the price of petrol.
> 
> Rule Britania...



Same thing here, so UK is not the only utter shyte-country if you want to have a car ... It costs me 75 euros to fill up my car (110$ people, and I'm not riding a truck, just a 406 Peugeot HDI) ; if I ever want to go to uni on bus, it costs me a daily 5$ (I have to take 3 different buses to get there) ...

Furthermore, I'll explain something you may know : buses and the subway are run by the state, which means never-ending strikes ... Added to that, everybody working for the State is lazy as fuck and just doesn't care if they are late or not ... When you have to wait 30 mn for a bus to pop up, and an additional 30 mn if the first one is late and doesn't meet the second one when you expect him to do ... Plus a third one ... It takes me from 1 hour and a half to a ridiculous 3 hours just to go 22 kms away from home to go to uni, folks.

And I'm not speaking of the fact that public transport = fucktards-filled buses, suburbs problems and the overall scent of piss and misery.

Even if I'm paying an obscene amount of cash to take my ride, I'm doing it gladly.


----------



## Nick

Grom said:


> And I'm not speaking of the fact that public transport = fucktards-filled buses, suburbs problems and the overall scent of piss and misery.



Lol let it all out i feel your pain!


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Nick said:


> because our public transportation system is for want of a better phrase 'fucking shit'
> 
> If i want to get to my home from the city centre after 11pm at night and without owning a car i have 2 options Pay for a cab which would run me $22 ish or walk in which case i would be home approximatley 3 and a half hours after leaving
> 
> Our public transport is also expensive. So owning a vehicle is the lesser fo 2 evils really.
> 
> Most european countries have great public transport which runs 24/7 but we have very few services like that here in glasgow and none that run anywhere near where i live.





Stitch said:


> ^ What Nick said.
> 
> Its hardly an issue for me now - I live less than one minute from the city centre - but in my old house, out on the suburbs, you had one bus every half an hour. It meandered into town taking 45 minutes to achieve a journey that takes 20 in the car, charged me £2.30 (almost $5) for the privelage - and that was one-way - I then had to pay that coming home too. It stopped running at about 10pm and didnt start again til 6am, so you either didn't have nights out or you stayed with friends.
> 
> Parking is a bitch over here too, but at least in a car you don't get the baolute fucking NUTTERS you do on the public transport system, which seems to be the den of the drunk, homeless, 15&pregnant and the religious loons who are very ill in the head.
> 
> The car doesn't smell of cider, vomit, urine and smoke, either.


Well, I am actually glad I live in london. Even if it is only nightbusses, it's still a 24hr transport system, even if you really don't want to be on the bus sometimes, you can still get home.

When i misguidedly lived outside of london, there was a shockingly shit bus network (haha network, don't make me laugh) and a train station to get the hell out of there. Made me appreciate London a whole lot more.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Naren said:


> You were right in that UK gallons are 4.55 liters.
> 
> But my price of $8.31 would be an accurate conversion, while your gallon rate would be $10.01 which would be even more ridiculous.
> 
> Yeah, it would be anarchy in the US if gas prices got that expensive (without the dollar inflating as well). I can't even imagine $10 for a gallon of gas. That could cost over $100 to fill your tank.


Actually, it does cost 100$ + to fill up over here now.


----------



## Rick

7 Dying Trees said:


> Actually, it does cost 100$ + to fill up over here now.



I couldn't believe what would happen if that occurred over here.


----------



## Grom

Only years to go, dude. Fossil energy is on it's way out. Not because we found something else to replace it ... Just because we're emptying the stock.

At least, here in Europe we have a preview of what it'll be like.


----------



## Nick

yeah cars can run on heavy water and on alchol etc.

funnily enough the big oil companies like BP and some american ones bought the rights to those.

Clever of them ehh?


----------



## Grom

The water-fueled car rights were boughts 30 years ago. Virtually no model came out equipped with it since. Way to go, humankind. Here in France it is forbidden to use fries oil in your diesel-fueled car, while this was said to be working a long time ago. Some brave souls are selling it, though. At the price Americans get their gas.

/rant.


----------



## oompa

in swe/nor petrol is about $1,88, or £0,91 per liter. this makes a:

US gallon $7.11 (£3.44)
UK gallon £4.13 ($8.54)

and to drivers licenses.. an average license in sweden is about 15.000sek, norway about 20.000nok. this means a:

swe license $2350, or £1150.
nor license $3600, or £1750.

so what are you guys bitchin about? 

buses and trains are cool in sweden tho, i cant complain that much. getting between cities is fairly cheap and easy on train as long as you are under 26 or student. a train ticket with express train from stockholm to the city my dad lives in, is about 300km and costs me about $25, its ok i think. but yea, local buses in sthlm for example, have the same (slightly less intense maybe) situation as Grom described.


----------



## Toshiro

By comparison, train trips in the USA cost as much as flying does for long distances.


----------



## Drew

To get back onto the subject of the Amercian national debt, here's a timely article from the AP. 

National debt grows &#36;1 million a minute - Yahoo! News

Turns out, the picture is slightly bleaker than I'd thought, our interest payments are already pretty absurd.

Though, to be fair, Alan Greenspan's point is valid - a certain amount of debt is probably healthy for the economy, if nothing else because if suddenly the government stopped issuing Treasury notes because they were no longer needed to finance the government, there would be some pretty wide-ranging shakeups in the financial world - if nothing else, pricing of Eurodollar futures contracts is dependant upon T-bills, and it'd be a fuck of a lot harder to manage a short term cash equivalent portfolio without a large number of readily-available bonds that were about to mature...


----------



## Nick

i think the train actually costs more than flying here lol

this thread has went on a serious tangent lol


----------



## JJ Rodriguez

Because as ignorant as he was, TotallyBr00tal was keeping this thread on topic


----------



## Naren

Nick said:


> However you guys dont get raped first on the price of learning to drive (we must now sit a minimum of 20 lessons usually priced around £17.50 ($35 each) so $700 to take lessons we then have to sit a theory test which i passed first time and cost me $40 for the pleaseure but if you fail you need to pay each time and keep sitting it till you pass. You then have to sit the practical test which will cost your around $160 and is the same that if you fail you pay each time you re sit.



That may be a lot more than the US, but that's pocket change compared to how much it costs to get a driver's license in Japan. The normal price is between $3000 and $6000. And I know of one place that advertises themselves as being INSANELY CHEAP for costing around $2500.

My girlfriend wouldn't believe me when I told her it cost me $25 for my driver's license (classes included). She seriously thought I was joking for almost 10 minutes. I mean, that's over 100x more. In many cases, over 200x more.


----------



## Nick

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Because as ignorant as he was, TotallyBr00tal was keeping this thread on topic



truth check his rep out though its fucking amazing!


----------



## Stitch

Naren said:


> That may be a lot more than the US, but that's pocket change compared to how much it costs to get a driver's license in Japan. The normal price is between $3000 and $6000. And I know of one place that advertises themselves as being INSANELY CHEAP for costing around $2500.
> 
> My girlfriend wouldn't believe me when I told her it cost me $25 for my driver's license (classes included). She seriously thought I was joking for almost 10 minutes. I mean, that's over 100x more. In many cases, over 200x more.



...but we aren't talking about how much they cost. We're talking about how much they cost when compared to other modes of transport. Thats pricy as fuck, but Japanese public transport is without a doubt the best I have ever used. The subway is always on time, the trains are frequent and punctual, and the Shinkansen...just wow. An absolute pleasure to use.

Sure, cars are expensive there, but there REALLY isn't a great need for one, especially in urban Tokyo. Even when I stayed near Mt. Aso the public transport was frequent enough that we ever once needed a car. 



Nick said:


> truth check his rep out though its fucking amazing!


----------



## Drew

Hey Stitch, read this. I posted it just for you.  

Also, I love how he has three positive reps, and two of them are accidental.


----------



## garcia3441

Stitch said:


> I fuckin' love that car! Which version did you get?



GTE SE6A


----------



## BigM555

Drew said:


> Also, I love how he has three positive reps, and two of them are accidental.



"Here's some more just because I don't like you."

That slayed me.

   





_BigM555 is thinking this thread has run it's course._


----------



## Drew

TotallyBr00tal said:


> Jongpil Yun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Falling dollar, rising oil prices, subprime mortgages, global warming, war in Iraq, Afghanistan, terrible relations with most of the middle east, disgustingly cozy relations with Saudi Arabia, Guantanamo & the suspension of habeas corpus, budget deficit, healthcare inadequacy, slashing the budget of sciences, his ridiculous tax cuts at the start of his term, corruption, alliance with big business, abuse of presidential power, and that's all I can think of off the top of my head.
> 
> IMO Andrew Johnson and Buchanan give him a run for his money though.
> 
> The greatest? Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt of course. I might add Polk simply because he was able to steal 1/3 of Mexico for us. Way to go, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ok most of these things you mention were already fucked up when he was elected so those dont count and as for the abuse of presidential power how, Congress voted for the War.
Click to expand...


You know, just for kicks, I'm going to go back to this original post here. 

*The falling US Dollar* - the dollar peaked against the Euro iin February of 2002, just over a year into the Bush Administration. "Already a problem from before he was elected?" Hell, the Euro wasn't even in existance until just over a year before he took office, and the dollar remained strong well past 9/11 (before you play that card). 

*Rising oil prices* - The price of crude was $24.11 when Bush took office in January of 2000. There are price increases, and then there are price increases - the fact that crude is now trading at low $90's a barrel is frankly absolutely absurd. 

*Subprime Mortgages* - On one hand, the phrase "sub-prime mortgage" never really came into common parlance until the last year. On the other, I'll grant you that your case here is relatively strong, as the seeds were undeniably sewn several years before. However, the Bush Administration's disasterous fiscal policy, the fall of the dollar, the failure of the Federal Reserve to adjust their rate targets to compensate for inflationary tendancies in the housing market, and the resulting credit crunch have only made a bad situation worse. 

*Global Warming* - here's another one where there's plenty of blame to go around. However, the Bush Administration's refusal to sign the Kyoto Accord, refusal to give any environmental bill teeth, and habit of "editing" reports released by environmental governance branches to downplay any conclusions about the reality of the global warming situation is almost comical it's so short sighted. Recently, Bush has finally admitted that global warming is occuring, but the sole course of action he seems to be advocating is just saying over and over again that "we're addicted to oil." That may cut it in AA, and if you keep staggering in reeking of booze they'll tell you to keep coming, but there eventually comes a time when you need to put your money where your mouth is. 

*War in Iraq and Afghanistan* - Um, we declared war on the later in 2002 and the former in 2003. Neither country was a domestiic threat prior to then, and while the case is a bit iffy for Afghanistan, there were absolutely no Al Quaida ties to Iraq. For better or for worse, these two wars will be Bush's legacy. 

Anyway, I'm getting bored. You get the picture.


----------



## BigM555

Nice post Drew! 

But let me quickly predict Brutals reply (should it ever come)


----------



## Drew

TEH SKYZ IZ FALLING TEH SKYZ IS [email protected]! OMGWTFBBQ!!!!121!!cos(o)1!!


----------



## Rick

OMGWTFBBQ is the only internet speak I like.


----------



## ohio_eric

Drew,

As we all know the facts have a known liberal bias.


----------



## garcia3441

BigM555 said:


> _BigM555 is thinking this thread has run it's course._



We tried to keep it going in the hope that brootal would come back. But; sadly, I'm going to have to agree.


----------



## Drew

ohio_eric said:


> Drew,
> 
> As we all know the facts have a known liberal bias.



 Colbert rules. 

I'm actually kind of sorry he's gone, I was just getting warmed up. Not that I expected to ever talk some sense into him - the problem with a closed mind is it's, well, closed - but still it was kind of fun...


----------



## noodles

garcia3441 said:


> We tried to keep it going in the hope that brootal would come back.


----------



## Drew

He hasn't been on since the 2nd. 

I'm a little embarrassed that he's 26 - I'd expected better of my generation. :/


----------



## ohio_eric

Totally Br00tal's MO is pretty standard. 

He starts off like we ain't got shit.

He gets attacked from multiple angles by people who can actually do a Google search and read newspapers and books. 

So he resorts to name calling and platitudes and other such nonsense. 

He really gets it handed to him. 

He then sneaks away into the abyss. 

I've seen it before and sadly I'll see it again.


----------



## Drew

I'll agree, if you add the addendum that he STILL thinks he's right and we're the deluded ones. :/


----------



## ohio_eric

But of course. 

He's the type that never admits defeat.


----------



## Drew

Hmm... Who does that remind me of...?


----------



## ohio_eric

Don't forget this guy.


----------



## BigM555

ohio_eric said:


> Don't forget this guy.



LMFAO!

I have no idea how this has gotten past me previously. I'm assuming it's not new.  

I've already repped you too much recently or you'd be getting some more.


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## ohio_eric

I found it on a Google search. No idea how old it is.


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## Drew

Bah. I had high hopes for this thread.


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## ohio_eric

How high? 

That we would reduce TotallyBr00tal to a quivering pile of man flesh?

That we would make his head explode?



I've dealt with ilk so much that I guess I'm a bit numb to it.


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## Drew

Nah, that he'd at least come back. I wasn't optimistic about changing his mind, but still closed minded idiots are nice to keep in practice...


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## distressed_romeo

Who was his one positive rep from? I'm guessing Cybersaviour...


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## Naren

distressed_romeo said:


> Who was his one positive rep from? I'm guessing Cybersaviour...



Actually I think he was banned.

I think all of the positive reps were accidental. I never really understood how someone could accidentally positive rep someone, though. What? Do you think the forum can READ YOUR MIND and tell that you want to neg rep them?


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## ohio_eric

Drew said:


> Nah, that he'd at least come back. I wasn't optimistic about changing his mind, but still closed minded idiots are nice to keep in practice...



Generally people like him, like any good rat, know when to abandon the sinking ship.


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## JJ Rodriguez

ohio_eric said:


> Generally people like him, like any good rat, know when to abandon the sinking ship.



Then why's he defending Bush?


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## distressed_romeo

Naren said:


> Actually I think he was banned.
> 
> I think all of the positive reps were accidental. I never really understood how someone could accidentally positive rep someone, though. What? Do you think the forum can READ YOUR MIND and tell that you want to neg rep them?



No, he was online recently, although it really amazed me that he hadn't been banned...


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## Naren

distressed_romeo said:


> No, he was online recently, although it really amazed me that he hadn't been banned...



After _ALL_ he's done, he still hasn't been banned?  That's the most surprising thing I've heard all day. I guess he's just done lots of 3-day ban stuff but nothing that alone would be worth a perma-ban.


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## Drew

Nah, he's gradually working his way up - his last suspension was a two week, and if he does something truely assinine again, it'll probably be for good.


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## Abhorred

I actually kind of missed reading Totallybrutal's responses. I don't agree with him... in any way... whatsoever... but I'm all about trying to understand what logic, valid or otherwise, goes into what I (and many others) construe to be misguided beliefs.

I'm also about calling them on it, so carry on, then.


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## garcia3441

Naren said:


> I think all of the positive reps were accidental.



One of Br00tal's positive reps. states that; 'I concur'.


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## The Dark Wolf

Lord Lemons is his benefactor, whoever that is.


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## Jongpil Yun

Oh shi- next post gets #300

I'll just take #299.

EDIT: I'm an idiot.


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## Zepp88

Naren said:


> Actually I think he was banned.
> 
> I think all of the positive reps were accidental. I never really understood how someone could accidentally positive rep someone, though. What? Do you think the forum can READ YOUR MIND and tell that you want to neg rep them?



I'm not really sure...I left a angry comment that was supposed to be a neg rep...but I forgot to click "negative" in my frenzy...

I don't think a random positive rep would help him much anyway


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## Naren

Zepp88 said:


> I'm not really sure...I left a angry comment that was supposed to be a neg rep...but I forgot to click "negative" in my frenzy...
> 
> I don't think a random positive rep would help him much anyway



"I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU SAID THAT! YOU ARE SO IGNORANT, MEAN-SPIRITED, AND FOOLHARDY!"  "HERE! HAVE SOME POSITIVE REP!"

 Every rep counts. Not that it matters. I doubt he'll be coming back.


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## Zepp88

"GO FUCK YOURSELF HERES A GREEN BAR!"


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## Prometheus

So, if I start praising everyone for their insightful comments, witty repartee and total pwnage of militant trolls, I'll be neg-repped to oblivion before I can blink?


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## JBroll

Just don't rep me... It's already hard enough being a crotchety old conservative bastard as it is, what with not being old and all that, I can't start being popular and likable too.

Jeff


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## Prometheus

Somehow, I do not foresee that particular fate on your horizon!  

Nah, I actually like your posts, and I agree with a fair amount of what you have to say.


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## noodles

Prometheus said:


> So, if I start praising everyone for their insightful comments, witty repartee and total pwnage of militant trolls, I'll be neg-repped to oblivion before I can blink?



-repped


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## Stitch




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