# Gibson vs Kiesel



## possumkiller (Feb 20, 2020)

Apparently even though Gibson lost the lawsuits in the EU and with Dean over the V body shape, they are trying to get onto Kiesel/Carvin over the Ultra V. The Ultra V looks way less like a Gibson V than a Dean does. At what point does the court just tell Gibson to fuck off and quit wasting people's time?


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## sleewell (Feb 20, 2020)

fuck gibson. seriously i hope they eat a bag of dicks and fall into a deep hole.

they have no good ideas and free falling revenue so they resort to frivolous lawsuits. that is a 100% bitch move in my book. 

they should just go out of business and put a failbird x on their tombstone.

i really hope kiesel counter sues and at least gets their legal bills paid.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 20, 2020)

I don't think it'll ever get to court, at least not over the UltraV.

At this point, it's just a cease and decist letter, and those cost pennies (as far as legal services go) and have nothing but up-sides for them, except for potential negative PR. The recipient can ignore it, or they will stop making the guitar(s) they see as even a .01% competitor, or join their partner program. Apparently, Gibson sent one to Carvin years ago, but then retracted it. Jeff Kiesel even said they apologized for it back then.

This new letter also included the CS3/CS6 model, their carved-top single cut. Coser to an LP I think that PRS...and PRS won their actual lawsuit. So...I don't suspect this will go to court, either.


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## ockis23 (Feb 20, 2020)

If I was in the market for a V shape, I would definitely buy a Kiesel. Love the Kiesel custom options and at this point with what Gibson has been doing with all these lawsuits, I don't see myself buying from them in the foreseeable future.


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## Esp Griffyn (Feb 20, 2020)

Gibson are such a vile organisation. I'd feel slimy playing a Gibson product these days, which I wouldn't anyway, since their stuff is clunky, old-fashioned crap.


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## BlackSG91 (Feb 20, 2020)

You guys are now making me feel ashamed of my beloved Gibson.


;>)/


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## ockis23 (Feb 20, 2020)

BlackSG91 said:


> You guys are now making me feel ashamed of my beloved Gibson.
> 
> 
> ;>)/



Nothing to feel ashamed about boss, it is unfortunate what Gibson has become in recent years but that should in no way cast a shadow on an instrument you love. 

I have a 91 Limited Edition Gibson SG Celebrity Series that will be buried with me when the day comes, I have spent over half my life with this instrument and no corporate drama will ever change my love for it.


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## oracles (Feb 20, 2020)

I cant believe how many people are genuinely so upset about this. 

I have no stock in either brand, but I'd rather have a dogshit Gibson than an overly beleved, cumburst finished, 80% close to being the right shape Kiesel. Jeff is a walking two sizes too small, monster energy soaked affliction shirt, and it's not like he hasnt put out turds or pulled some shady BS since he took over. 

Nothing is likely to come from this anyway, but the Gibson vitriol these days is ridiculous.


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## Demiurge (Feb 20, 2020)

The only fair outcome would be for the court to rule in Kiesel's favor and to order Gibson that the only guitars they may produce in 2021 be watermelon burst.


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## technomancer (Feb 20, 2020)

Jeff has got to be having a brogasm over this. Not saying Gibson is in the right by any means, but this plays right into the cult us vs everybody else crap Kiesel thrives on.

"Call my guys, we need the money to help the family fight the evil empire!"


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## spudmunkey (Feb 20, 2020)

oracles said:


> ...evil empire



_[Rage Against The Machine's lawyers have entered the chat]_


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## spudmunkey (Feb 20, 2020)

https://www.musicradar.com/news/gib...l-guitars-over-its-ultra-v-kiesel-fights-back


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## Seabeast2000 (Feb 20, 2020)

BlackSG91 said:


> You guys are now making me feel ashamed of my beloved Gibson.
> 
> 
> ;>)/



Rage on behalf of the machine.


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## Mboogie7 (Feb 20, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Jeff has got to be having a brogasm over this. Not saying Gibson is in the right by any means, but this plays right into the cult us vs everybody else crap Kiesel thrives on.
> 
> "Call my guys, we need the money to help the family fight the evil empire!"



Dude you aren’t wrong. I’m apart of the Facebook group (Hoping to place a basic build soon because lefty) and I can’t believe the psychobabble bullshit that so many asshats on that group post. Gibson shit is posted 5 times a day it seems, amongst other things like other brands ripping of Kiesels, etc. 

It’s quite annoying to see, but I’ve heard amazing things about basic spec builds so I deal with it haha.


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## Albake21 (Feb 20, 2020)

Mboogie7 said:


> Dude you aren’t wrong. I’m apart of the Facebook group (Hoping to place a basic build soon because lefty) and I can’t believe the psychobabble bullshit that so many asshats on that group post. Gibson shit is posted 5 times a day it seems, amongst other things like other brands ripping of Kiesels, etc.
> 
> It’s quite annoying to see, but I’ve heard amazing things about basic spec builds so I deal with it haha.


That group is just a pure cancerous echo chamber. I had to leave it because I just couldn't take it anymore. Same can be said about pretty much every single Facebook group dedicated to one guitar company.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 20, 2020)

Albake21 said:


> That group is just a pure cancerous echo chamber. I had to leave it because I just couldn't take it anymore. Same can be said about pretty much every single Facebook group dedicated to one guitar company.



You could also replace "guitar" with:

Car
Show
Ski
Bicycle
Snowboard
Skateboard
Gun
Bow
Watch
Fishing boat
etc etc etc...
Basically, any 'enthusiast'-focused forum.


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## aesthyrian (Feb 20, 2020)

oracles said:


> ...the Gibson vitriol these days is ridiculous.



Yeah, It's almost as ridiculous as this:



oracles said:


> ..overly beleved, cumburst finished, 80% close to being the right shape Kiesel. Jeff is a walking two sizes too small, monster energy soaked affliction shirt, and it's not like he hasnt put out turds or pulled some shady BS since he took over.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 20, 2020)

aesthyrian said:


> Yeah, It's almost as ridiculous as this:



Where's the lie?


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## gunch (Feb 20, 2020)

The Judge presiding over this case waking up to see it on the docket for the first time


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## spudmunkey (Feb 20, 2020)

Anybody remember when Gibson went after Guitar Hero because of their single-cut guitar-shaped controller? And then also went after retailers like Amazon and Wal-mart who were selling it?

And then came out with this THE VERY SAME YEAR (2009)?!?!


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## Chokey Chicken (Feb 20, 2020)

Am I the only one who thought "I wonder if Jeff made it all up for invented drama?" 

I mean it's unlikely because THAT opens a huge can of legal worms, but it sounds like something Jeff would do. 

Also, there is are less than zero grounds for a lawsuit against that V. Which it's unfortunate, because I'd take a gibson V over that dog shit offset bleh-fest any day. Zero desire to give money to them at this point, though. 

I always hated offset V's, and Kiesel makes one of the fuggest. Why start shit over that dumpster fire?


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 20, 2020)

Take a shot every time someone conflates a C&D with a lawsuit. Go!


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## gunch (Feb 20, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Take a shot every time someone conflates a C&D with a lawsuit. Go!



I don't read good


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## BenjaminW (Feb 20, 2020)

Lemme grab my popcorn and soda, then I'm all set.


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## aesthyrian (Feb 21, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Where's the lie?



I just don't think it's fair to make fun of monster energy or affliction like that.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 21, 2020)

aesthyrian said:


> I just don't think it's fair to make fun of monster energy or affliction like that.


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## BornToLooze (Feb 21, 2020)

ockis23 said:


> I have a 91 Limited Edition Gibson SG Celebrity Series that will be buried with me when the day comes, I have spent over half my life with this instrument and no corporate drama will ever change my love for it.



Exactly. When I got my Gibson, I played every one they had under $3k. All of them had their issues, but I played one and I could just feel it was the one. It was worth fixing the issues it had. How many guitars do you see that are so good they look like this?




That's the thing I love about regular amps and shit. I did the POD/AxeFX thing for a while. That was the most consistent my tone ever was. But running a guitar straight into an amp, sometimes it sounds like shit, but sometimes it sounds so amazing it makes me push myself past what I think I can do.


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## The Mirror (Feb 21, 2020)

I'm glad that I just like my PRS guitars and can look at all the other great instruments I do not have the money to buy.


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 21, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Take a shot every time someone conflates a C&D with a lawsuit. Go!



"We're being *sued*! We need your support now, here's some *cough* special *cough* tops for the live audience to choose from now! Don't miss out on this super amazing rare wood!"


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## mastapimp (Feb 21, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Take a shot every time someone conflates a C&D with a lawsuit. Go!


Got a C&D letter at work from a competitor warning us not to use the word "Smart" as an adjective for our medical device. We called up our lawyers and within an hour sent them a "haha, that's cute, but no thanks" letter in legalese...

Never heard back from them again and it's been at least 6 years. Their claim was so absurd it was more amusing than threatening.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 21, 2020)

Guitar World article with no new information:
https://www.guitarworld.com/news/gi...ly-sends-cease-and-desist-over-ultra-v-design


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## Jonathan20022 (Feb 21, 2020)

Like fucking clockwork


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## Demiurge (Feb 21, 2020)

Might Gibson believe that Kiesel is small-but-prominent enough to litigate against?

I mean they came out with their "play authentic" spiel and perhaps they need to put their money where their mouth is. Both sides seem foolhardy enough to really make it a ballgame, IMO.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 21, 2020)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Like fucking clockwork


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## gunshow86de (Feb 21, 2020)

They need to cease and desist doing burst finishes.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 21, 2020)

And here they are again, this time with the neck shoulders aligned:


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## Hollowway (Feb 22, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Anybody remember when Gibson went after Guitar Hero because of their single-cut guitar-shaped controller? And then also went after retailers like Amazon and Wal-mart who were selling it?
> 
> And then came out with this THE VERY SAME YEAR (2009)?!?!


Wow, I didn’t know that. Holy crap, that’s ballsy to be THAT hypocritical.


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## Rotatous (Feb 22, 2020)

I feel like Gibson will continue to cling on on to what they've done for the world of guitar for as long as they exist. They will probably be handing out these C&Ds until their bitter end. I don't thing anything will come of this though to be honest, looking at what lawsuits Gibson has won and lost in the past.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 22, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


>



There's actually something of an interesting story about these. 

In the early 00's Gibson was approached by Experience Hendrix to work on a series of guitars based off of actual Gibsons that Jimi had used in his career, namely a V, and SG Custom, and a LPC. The V later came to fruition.

Fender was originally contacted about doing a Hendrix series of guitars, but negotiations fell through, as money was somewhat tight given a series of brand acquisitions (namely Jackson). So EH took their ball and went to Gibson. 

During the process of making the Gibson Hendrix V, the EH project wanted to move more mass market, and wanted something to put in big box retail stores.

Essentially, EH designed the product and Gibson (Epiphone) manufactured and marketed it.


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## Hollowway (Feb 22, 2020)

Actual image of Max and all his knowledge.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 22, 2020)

I remember reading that even the person who spearheaded the project and was targeting a V or SG left the company, and that's also right when plans changed and they went down-market.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 23, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> I remember reading that even the person who spearheaded the project and was targeting a V or SG left the company, and that's also right when plans changed and they went down-market.



As someone who briefly worked in ISC for a company that made some EH authorized products, they're great at turning great ideas into lowest common denominator, cheap junk.


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## dmlinger (Feb 23, 2020)

Saw on his Instagram account last week that Sully also received a C&D for his Revolution V shape as well. The Revolution is pointy like Kiesel's V. Sully's Raven (Firebird) shape is much more similar to the Gibson shape than the V is.

Seems Gibson is painting with a broad brush and targeting a lot of builders. Wonder how many others received letters? What a sight it would be if Gibson and Fender/Jackson faced off over the Rhoads V.

Side note...I stepped foot into a Guitar Center last week and picked up a few Gibson guitars across all price ranges ($600-$4000) and they all had issues. Fret work on the low end was nearly unplayable, and the attention to detail on the high end guitars was poor. Binding wasn't scraped well, fret ends were sharp, pores in headstock weren't filled (finish flaws), etc. Too many issues to spend that kind of money. They had a EBMM St Vincent on closeout for $1,100 that was head and shoulders above everything Gibson had in that store.


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## rokket2005 (Feb 23, 2020)

Gibson is doing some crappy things lately, but my R7 is such a monster and completely kills the old DC747, 727 and CT6 I used to have. At the end of the day I only care about how good something sounds and how much it inspires me to play, neither of which any of the Carvins I had/have ever really did.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 24, 2020)

I was on the phone with my friend Mark Agnesi the other day...

I told him I'd like a Les Paul and I had tons of dad rock money I wanted to spend on a guitar. But first, I would like him to do me a favor though because the guitar community has been through a lot and Gibson knows a lot about it. I would like him to find out what happened with this whole situation with Jeff Kiesel, they say Mr Bevels… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The guitar deals, they say Kiesel has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.

I would like to have my wife call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Jeff, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with him. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 24, 2020)




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## narad (Feb 24, 2020)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Like fucking clockwork



Honestly with guitars like this they should cease and desist simply for the good of humanity.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 24, 2020)

narad said:


> Honestly with guitars like this they should cease and desist simply for the good of humanity.



Sexy.


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## gunshow86de (Feb 24, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> I was on the phone with my friend Mark Agnesi the other day...
> 
> I told him I'd like a Les Paul and I had tons of dad rock money I wanted to spend on a guitar. But first, I would like him to do me a favor though because the guitar community has been through a lot and Gibson knows a lot about it. I would like him to find out what happened with this whole situation with Jeff Kiesel, they say Mr Bevels… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The guitar deals, they say Kiesel has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.
> 
> I would like to have my wife call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Jeff, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with him. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 24, 2020)

*"Gibson is such a meanie."*







What I hear every time someone swears off Gibson because they are doing business stuff in the business industry.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 24, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> I was on the phone with my friend Mark Agnesi the other day...
> 
> I told him I'd like a Les Paul and I had tons of dad rock money I wanted to spend on a guitar. But first, I would like him to do me a favor though because the guitar community has been through a lot and Gibson knows a lot about it. I would like him to find out what happened with this whole situation with Jeff Kiesel, they say Mr Bevels… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The guitar deals, they say Kiesel has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.
> 
> I would like to have my wife call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Jeff, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with him. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.



#MAGA (Mark Agnesi's Guitars Again?)


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## akinari (Feb 24, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> *"Gibson is such a meanie."*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think most people are swearing them off because of their dog shit QC, laughable marketing, atrocious PR, horrendous value, and unwarranted harassment of people who built better guitars, but if that's the kind of "business stuff" that you find acceptable in the "business industry" then by all means, leave the ESPs, Solars, etc. of the world who have instruments that are similar in design to Gibson's but without that garbage for the rest of us.

(I own Gibsons too lol)


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## ArtDecade (Feb 24, 2020)

akinari said:


> I think most people are swearing them off because of their dog shit QC, laughable marketing, atrocious PR, horrendous value, and unwarranted harassment of people who built better guitars, but if that's the kind of "business stuff" that you find acceptable in the "business industry" then by all means, leave the ESPs, Solars, etc. of the world who have instruments that are similar in design to Gibson's but without that garbage for the rest of us.
> 
> (I own Gibsons too lol)



Except for that all the below whining has nothing to do with "_their dog shit QC, laughable marketing, atrocious PR, horrendous value_" and everything to do with hurt feelings because Gibson business is gonna have to do Gibson business.



sleewell said:


> fuck gibson. seriously i hope they eat a bag of dicks and fall into a deep hole.
> 
> they have no good ideas and free falling revenue so they resort to frivolous lawsuits. that is a 100% bitch move in my book.
> 
> ...





ockis23 said:


> If I was in the market for a V shape, I would definitely buy a Kiesel. Love the Kiesel custom options and at this point with what Gibson has been doing with all these lawsuits, I don't see myself buying from them in the foreseeable future.





Esp Griffyn said:


> Gibson are such a vile organisation. I'd feel slimy playing a Gibson product these days, which I wouldn't anyway, since their stuff is clunky, old-fashioned crap.


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## lurè (Feb 24, 2020)

gunshow86de said:


>



make America rad again


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## Nonapod (Feb 24, 2020)

Man, I guess people really hate Jeff Kiesel almost as much as they hate what Gibson has become in recent years.


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## akinari (Feb 24, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> Except for that all the below whining has nothing to do with "_their dog shit QC, laughable marketing, atrocious PR, horrendous value_" and everything to do with hurt feelings because Gibson business is gonna have to do Gibson business.



Do you genuinely not see that all of the posts that you quoted had *literally everything *to do with the points I made? If standing in Gibson's corner really makes you feel like you're rooting for the champ, plant your feet and woop, but it's painfully obvious they're trying to nickel and dime smaller companies into oblivion with these penny ante letters and legal threats. The true reasoning behind it or what they expect the endgame to be is anyone's guess, but there's no denying they're a bankrupt company making zero innovations to their product line who push tons of inconsistent and flawed guitars out to the public for a premium price, and no amount of arguing between us is going to change that fact. Go to the retailer of your choice and look at their guitars. You'd have to be an increasingly rare case or (more likely) in blatant denial to not find issues with a lot of them. From the biggest YouTubers to Joe 10 posts on Ultimate Guitar, many, many people have reports of this being a common occurrence, and they're the same kinds of problems people go absolutely berserk over from builders and companies that have been in business for less than a decade and have 1/32nd the manpower.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 24, 2020)

Dude, I don't care about Gibson and I really don't care about whatever the hell Carvin is calling itself now. If you think Gibson is mean, that's cool. You've proven my point by whining about it anyway. Gibson didn't invent litigating, but it is a tool they use because it is there. Blame Capitalism.


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## akinari (Feb 24, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> Dude, I don't care about Gibson and I really don't care about whatever the hell Carvin is calling itself now. If you think Gibson is mean, that's cool. You've proven my point by whining about it anyway. Gibson didn't invent litigating, but it is a tool they use because it is there. Blame Capitalism.



Easy fella  You care enough that you took time out of your day attempting to source posts from three different people to add validity to your talking point. Which was, what, anyway? That Gibson's use of litigation has disgusted a lot of people? Fucking obviously. You can call my observations whining if you'd like, but you know what I'm saying is true.


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 24, 2020)

I like Gibson because they make cool guitars.


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## rokket2005 (Feb 24, 2020)

FWIW Gibson has consistently made money on their guitars. It was all the little side companies they acquired that they completely lost their ass on.


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## Seabeast2000 (Feb 24, 2020)

Maybe they should c&d themselves and sue since they own the IP and are clearly profiting of substandard reproductions.


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## akinari (Feb 24, 2020)

In all fairness, I've never touched a Kiesel and I'm no Gibson hater, but I don't think it can be argued that they're painting themselves into a smaller and smaller corner of the market with the way they're running things at the company. I love plenty - hell, most - of Gibson's designs, but I also realize that I can get those same kinds of guitars from companies with more consistent build quality and more variable appointments. I'm not paying 3 or 4 grand for what they're peddling right now.


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## narad (Feb 24, 2020)

akinari said:


> I love plenty - hell, most - of Gibson's designs, but I also realize that I can get those same kinds of guitars from companies with more consistent build quality and more variable appointments. I'm not paying 3 or 4 grand for what they're peddling right now.



That's kind of the point though -- you're not supposed to be able to get Gibson's designs from other companies, regardless of whether Gibson's execution is haphazard and they're charging $100k for it. 

To Kiesel's credit, I don't think this particular lawsuit is warranted, given that Gibson's V looks nothing like Kiesel's (to Gibson's credit). But you have to shotgun the world with lawsuits to establish where the practical boundaries are going to be on how far you can defend your designs.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 24, 2020)

tl;dr: Don't hate the player, hate the game.


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## ixlramp (Feb 24, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> ... they are doing business stuff in the business industry.


Very silly comment, they are not. You know that in this case this is not a legitimate C&D, the Kiesel is extremely different, Gibson will have to C&D every flying V design in existence to be consistent with this action, it is ridiculous beyond belief.
They go from thinking being modern is putting a computer inside a guitar from the 1960s to being an insane legal bully.
Some of their previous actions have been rather ridiculous too, but at least in those cases the guitars looked remotely similar.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 24, 2020)

ixlramp said:


> this is not a legitimate C&D, the Kiesel is extremely different, Gibson will have to C&D every flying V design in existence to be consistent with this action



That's not how any of this works.


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 25, 2020)

Just out of curiosity, where can I get some more of this righteous indignation? I seem to be lacking...

Looking for the best quality, don’t want to spend any money, and nothing ruff around the edges thank you very much!

I need to put my energy into something that really matters, and since so many of you are fighting the good fight against Guitar makers, I thought I perhaps I could “borrow” just a little bit of your vitriol and hyperbole, in an apparent effort to make a real difference in my local community, quite possibly on a grass roots level.

And maybe, just maybe, make some cool music too while I’m at it too!


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## USMarine75 (Feb 25, 2020)

rokket2005 said:


> FWIW Gibson has consistently made money on their guitars. It was all the little side companies they acquired that they completely lost their ass on.



Exactly. Their buyers mostly want 58-60 burst Les Pauls. What the majority of their buyers want is not more modern models with modern appointments.

Buying Epiphone in '58 was a win for them I believe... but companies like Kramer have been a profit hole.




What doesn't help is the whole market is down, and Gibson was riding the top of that bubble.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...f-the-electric-guitar/?utm_term=.8687a9ff15ae


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Exactly. Their buyers mostly want 58-60 burst Les Pauls. What the majority of their buyers want is not more modern models with modern appointments.
> 
> Buying Epiphone in '58 was a win for them I believe... but companies like Kramer have been a profit hole.
> 
> ...




It wasn't guitar and bass builder acquisitions that sunk Gibson Corp. (not to be confused with Gibson Guitar), it was the consumer electronics side.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 25, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It wasn't guitar and bass builder acquisitions that sunk Gibson Corp. (not to be confused with Gibson Guitar), it was the consumer electronics side.



Whatever, as long as I can keep posting this meme...


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 25, 2020)

Epiphone is the way to go. Gibson can eat a bag of dicks.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2020)

Charlie Foxtrot 3rd said:


> Epiphone is the way to go. Gibson can eat a bag of dicks.



This reminds me of a McDonald's review I read. 

Dude was so mad at the lady at the counter that he refused to pay, stormed out of the restaurant..._and then went through the drive-thru_. 

That'll show them!


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 25, 2020)

Sheeeeeeeeeiiiittt, they’re onto me.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 25, 2020)

ixlramp said:


> Very silly comment, they are not. You know that in this case this is not a legitimate C&D, the Kiesel is extremely different, Gibson will have to C&D every flying V design in existence to be consistent with this action,










MaxOfMetal said:


> That's not how any of this works.


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## SDMFVan (Feb 25, 2020)

It's weird, I've purchased seven Gibson guitars in the last two years (including a Les Paul Standard 60's just last week) and every one of them has been a fantastic instrument, even the Epiphone I got a few months back. Yet every time I read about them on a forum a hundred people comment on how they pump out nothing but broken, unplayable, overpriced junk. 

Is it possible that I just got lucky seven times in a row? Maybe. I'd say it's more likely though that some people just don't like Gibson for whatever reason and are talking out of their ass. The same people who will scream about Gibson being overpriced when a USA made LP Standard retails for $2500 in a hard case will defend Strandberg selling Chinese guitars in a cardboard box for $3,000...


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## SDMFVan (Feb 25, 2020)

And the C&D/lawsuit stuff going on is just noise as far as us on the consumer end is concerned. Gibson has shareholders, and the new leadership has a responsibility to them to show that they're doing something to protect Gibson's trademarks, which I'm sure is seen by those shareholders as a large driver of profit loss (whether that's true or not).


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## Thaeon (Feb 25, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> It's weird, I've purchased seven Gibson guitars in the last two years (including a Les Paul Standard 60's just last week) and every one of them has been a fantastic instrument, even the Epiphone I got a few months back. Yet every time I read about them on a forum a hundred people comment on how they pump out nothing but broken, unplayable, overpriced junk.
> 
> Is it possible that I just got lucky seven times in a row? Maybe. I'd say it's more likely though that some people just don't like Gibson for whatever reason and are talking out of their ass. The same people who will scream about Gibson being overpriced when a USA made LP Standard retails for $2500 in a hard case will defend Strandberg selling Chinese guitars in a cardboard box for $3,000...



I've played both. I've played Gibsons that were amazing guitars. I've played guitars that were little more than firewood too. Any reputable company should be focused on consistency. ESPECIALLY in that price range. If Gibson needs to restructure, fine. Do it. Get back to doing what they do best. But make them the absolute best they can be and keep the tolerances as narrow as possible. Suhr does this extremely well and has a factory in a place where the local market demands a lot higher price for labor, at lower production numbers, and at a lower retail price. I won't talk about the prices of imports. I tend to agree that a lot of imports are grossly overpriced. I think that Gibson's current litigious behavior isn't designed to go for the legal throat with actual law suits. I think they're trying to scare people into their new licensing thing. However, the shape of an LP has been around on guitars for long before Gibson existed on acoustic instruments with cutaways. Gibson can hardly claim that outline. The V to some degree yes. The Modourne Certainly (no one even attempts to copy this one though). Explorers, Firebirds, RDs, all to some degree are shapes that Gibson has at least some claim to. I don't think anyone disagrees on that. What Gibson has not done, is protect its IP responsibly over the years. So when they go through this stuff, but there's legal evidence, like in the case of the V (no registration of IP until '94 I believe), That's over 30 years of production that copies had been legally allowed. 30 years of legal precedence of allowance of use on their part that they have to overcome. Now, when people choose a guitar over Gibson when they've let quality slip so far and haven't updated their designs in any actually functional way to keep up with the people who make pointy versions of the V that are offset or narrower, or have different angles associated with them, or whatever, they're losing business because of their own failings over the years. Not because they are being ripped off. Its because they were lazy. So I have zero sympathy for them. In fact, its THEIR FAULT legally that their IP so unprotected. I absolutely adore Explorers. And not because of James Hetfield. As a kid I was a HUGE U2 fan. I still love them. I would love to have one of those guitars. But there's a reason I don't. I can't find one that's worth the money I'd have to put into it. And I want one. A Gibson. Korina Explorer. Just like The Edge has played for 40 years. But I shouldn't have to put 2 grand into the guitar, then get it plek'd on my own dime, then have to worry about whether or not the finish has issues. Let alone that Nitro leaches toxins into your skin and I can't get one with Poly. Gibson needs to step into the modern era. Accept what they've done to themselves. And look forward rather than blindly looking at what they've done for the last 100 years and think that will keep them solvent for the next 100.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 25, 2020)

P
A
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A
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P
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S

A
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F
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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I've played both. I've played Gibsons that were amazing guitars. I've played guitars that were little more than firewood too. Any reputable company should be focused on consistency. ESPECIALLY in that price range. If Gibson needs to restructure, fine. Do it. Get back to doing what they do best. But make them the absolute best they can be and keep the tolerances as narrow as possible. Suhr does this extremely well and has a factory in a place where the local market demands a lot higher price for labor, at lower production numbers, and at a lower retail price. I won't talk about the prices of imports. I tend to agree that a lot of imports are grossly overpriced. I think that Gibson's current litigious behavior isn't designed to go for the legal throat with actual law suits. I think they're trying to scare people into their new licensing thing. However, the shape of an LP has been around on guitars for long before Gibson existed on acoustic instruments with cutaways. Gibson can hardly claim that outline. The V to some degree yes. The Modourne Certainly (no one even attempts to copy this one though). Explorers, Firebirds, RDs, all to some degree are shapes that Gibson has at least some claim to. I don't think anyone disagrees on that. What Gibson has not done, is protect its IP responsibly over the years. So when they go through this stuff, but there's legal evidence, like in the case of the V (no registration of IP until '94 I believe), That's over 30 years of production that copies had been legally allowed. 30 years of legal precedence of allowance of use on their part that they have to overcome. Now, when people choose a guitar over Gibson when they've let quality slip so far and haven't updated their designs in any actually functional way to keep up with the people who make pointy versions of the V that are offset or narrower, or have different angles associated with them, or whatever, they're losing business because of their own failings over the years. Not because they are being ripped off. Its because they were lazy. So I have zero sympathy for them. In fact, its THEIR FAULT legally that their IP so unprotected. I absolutely adore Explorers. And not because of James Hetfield. As a kid I was a HUGE U2 fan. I still love them. I would love to have one of those guitars. But there's a reason I don't. I can't find one that's worth the money I'd have to put into it. And I want one. A Gibson. Korina Explorer. Just like The Edge has played for 40 years. But I shouldn't have to put 2 grand into the guitar, then get it plek'd on my own dime, then have to worry about whether or not the finish has issues. Let alone that Nitro leaches toxins into your skin and I can't get one with Poly. Gibson needs to step into the modern era. Accept what they've done to themselves. And look forward rather than blindly looking at what they've done for the last 100 years and think that will keep them solvent for the next 100.



Holy lack of carriage return. 

Just to clarify a few things:

- You can't compare a boutique shop with several orders of magnitude less output .
- Have you seen how much new Suhr guitars are these days?
- All Gibson guitars are PLEK'd at the factory. 
- Re:IP - The folks who chose not to trademark things are dead. Blame them, not current management, and the last regime, especially given how the governing laws have changed over the decades. 

Gibson makes millions of dollars in profit on their guitars. Saying anyone on here knows better is Dunning-Kruger at its finest. 

It's fine to not like their guitars, or them as a company.


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## Thaeon (Feb 25, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Holy lack of carriage return.
> 
> Just to clarify a few things:
> 
> ...



I have. I own a Suhr. I bought it new. Its a signature model and I got if for less than an LP Custom. In fact I ordered my Oni for less than a lot of Gibsons.

When you look at cost of production and available margins, I think that Suhr has to run a much leaner shop than Gibson does. They still turn out a profit. That's a valid comparison. Especially when you look at it from the perspective that Gibson is turn a profit on their guitars and selling much greater quantities. It sort of underscores that they are not actually hurting from the supposed IP theft. Specifically concerning the Les Paul. I would be willing to wager that Gibson single cut guitar sales in units is greater than all other single cuts combined.

If all Gibson's are Plek'd from the factory, they need to seriously address how much their guitars manage to get so out of spec from when they leave to when the arrive at a dealer. 

Regardless of when they lived, Gibson is incorporated. Which gives it effective personhood. Who is leading the company and when doesn't matter. They failed to do their due diligence in defending their IP which sets a legal precedent of permissiveness. You can't alternate between that precedent and wanting to mark your territory by pissing on other builder's designs at your own personal whim.

I absolutely agree that Gibson is making money hand over fist on their guitars. That was never my argument nor was it my intention to imply that. I'm only trying to say that other people build better guitars for less money. Some of them may be very similar to Gibson's designs, but Gibson has waited far too long to be litigious about it, especially considering they have already lost probably the best claim they had against PRS. Its a better look for the company going forward to be focused on the future of the company, not sustaining what they were in the past.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I have. I own a Suhr. I bought it new. Its a signature model and I got if for less than an LP Custom. In fact I ordered my Oni for less than a lot of Gibsons.



Two of three of my Suhr were roughly what a Les Paul custom costs, and if I was to order with the current price lists, they'd all be more. 

But they're still significantly different that it's hard to compare 1:1. If you go off the closest thing Suhr has to a Gibson, the Aura, an LPC is a bargain. (Auras went for $8k new.)



> When you look at cost of production and available margins, I think that Suhr has to run a much leaner shop than Gibson does. They still turn out a profit. That's a valid comparison.



It's a completely different operation. I've been to both facilities. The only thing in common is they make guitars. 



> Especially when you look at it from the perspective that Gibson is turn a profit on their guitars and selling much greater quantities. It sort of underscores that they are not actually hurting from the supposed IP theft. Specifically concerning the Les Paul. I would be willing to wager that Gibson single cut guitar sales in units is greater than all other single cuts combined.



Making a profit does not mean that there's no impact. Those are completely separate ideas. 

The idea isn't that competitors are putting them out of business, it's that they're diluting the brand, which is something of an entirely different concept. 



> If all Gibson's are Plek'd from the factory, they need to seriously address how much their guitars manage to get so out of spec from when they leave to when the arrive at a dealer.



So Gibson needs to tell wood not to be wood? 

The PLEK process cuts the frets, nut, and saddles. That can drift out of alignment when shipped, just like any guitar. Take the half hour to set it up, or have the dealer do it. This is guitar buying 101. 



> Regardless of when they lived, Gibson is incorporated. Which gives it effective personhood. Who is leading the company and when doesn't matter. They failed to do their due diligence in defending their IP which sets a legal precedent of permissiveness. You can't alternate between that precedent and wanting to mark your territory by pissing on other builder's designs at your own personal whim.



Talking about Gibson as if it's a person, regardless of legal standing, is weird and meaningless in the context here.

Though much of that is for the courts to decide, which is probably why this stops at C&Ds 90% of the time. 



> I absolutely agree that Gibson is making money hand over fist on their guitars. That was never my argument nor was it my intention to imply that. I'm only trying to say that other people build better guitars for less money. Some of them may be very similar to Gibson's designs, but Gibson has waited far too long to be litigious about it, especially considering they have already lost probably the best claim they had against PRS. Its a better look for the company going forward to be focused on the future of the company, not sustaining what they were in the past.



As has already been said, they're beholden to the share holders. If the shareholders feel it's their prerogative to go after IP, that's how it is. That's corporate America. 

Like I said earlier, plenty of other companies go after IP, it's only Gibson that tends to get singled out for it, and whenever it's explained what and why, the fallback is always long angry posts about how the guitars are all garbage and too expensive, which is hyperbole.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 25, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Two of three of my Suhr were roughly what a Les Paul custom costs, and if I was to order with the current price lists, they'd all be more.
> 
> But they're still significantly different that it's hard to compare 1:1. If you go off the closest thing Suhr has to a Gibson, the Aura, an LPC is a bargain. (Auras went for $8k new.)
> 
> ...



Has anyone ever seen an aura.


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## Thaeon (Feb 25, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> As has already been said, they're beholden to the share holders. If the shareholders feel it's their prerogative to go after IP, that's how it is. That's corporate America.
> 
> Like I said earlier, plenty of other companies go after IP, it's only Gibson that tends to get singled out for it, and whenever it's explained what and why, the fallback is always long angry posts about how the guitars are all garbage and too expensive, which is hyperbole.



I don't necessarily think that they should be singled out. And I honestly really don't have any skin in the game. If the shareholders can't understand that the IP claims are mostly unfounded and at this point unenforceable, maybe they should stick to publicly traded companies that don't hold IP, or maybe not play in the investment market. A company that has a history of not enforcing or being unable to enforce IP claims is not a company I'd want my money tied up in.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 25, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> Has anyone ever seen an aura.



I know a few have shipped. I see some of the pre-order spots are going for five figures. 

I was hoping it was going to be closer to $4k, but I knew it wasn't going to be. 

A local shop has one on order. I'm hoping to be able to try it, or at least see it up close if it doesn't sell.


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## Thaeon (Feb 25, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> Has anyone ever seen an aura.



Last I heard they weren't even finished making them yet. To address the price tag, that's mostly due to them being a limited run, and John himself doing a lot of the work. Its an exclusivity buy. Not that its better built than any of his other guitars or uses better materials.


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## Thaeon (Feb 25, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I know a few have shipped. I see some of the pre-order spots are going for five figures.
> 
> I was hoping it was going to be closer to $4k, but I knew it wasn't going to be.
> 
> A local shop has one on order. I'm hoping to be able to try it, or at least see it up close if it doesn't sell.



Same. I live close to a shop that will probably have one. I haven't asked. But they've had quite a few of the limited run guitars before.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 25, 2020)

Thaeon said:


> I don't necessarily think that they should be singled out. And I honestly really don't have any skin in the game. If the shareholders can't understand that the IP claims are mostly unfounded and at this point unenforceable, maybe they should stick to publicly traded companies that don't hold IP, or maybe not play in the investment market. A company that has a history of not enforcing or being unable to enforce IP claims is not a company I'd want my money tied up in.



I think it's funny how people are all up in arms when the Chinese copy a Strandberg or something and then hem haw when companies actually do what they are supposed to do.

the way copyright law works in the states is that you have to be actively enforcing it at all times. all the time. you can never stop.


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## Thaeon (Feb 25, 2020)

diagrammatiks said:


> I think it's funny how people are all up in arms when the Chinese copy a Strandberg or something and then hem haw when companies actually do what they are supposed to do.
> 
> the way copyright law works in the states is that you have to be actively enforcing it at all times. all the time. you can never stop.



Yep.


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## Esp Griffyn (Feb 25, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> Except for that all the below whining has nothing to do with "_their dog shit QC, laughable marketing, atrocious PR, horrendous value_" and everything to do with hurt feelings because Gibson business is gonna have to do Gibson business.



Don't make assumptions about my post. My main issue with Gibson is their shit QC, bad marketing, terrible PR and horrendous value. Don't quote me and try and make my words fit your agenda.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 25, 2020)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Don't make assumptions about my post. My main issue with Gibson is their shit QC, bad marketing, terrible PR and horrendous value. Don't quote me and try and make my words fit your agenda.



Show me on the doll where Gibson touched you.


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 25, 2020)

Charlie Foxtrot 3rd said:


> Epiphone is the way to go. Gibson can eat a bag of dicks.



Yea man!

cheap Chinese plastic FTW!

btw, anyone know where I can buy a HazMat suit? Getting ready for the outbreak...


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 25, 2020)

Wuuthrad said:


> Yea man!
> 
> cheap Chinese plastic FTW!
> 
> btw, anyone know where I can buy a HazMat suit? Getting ready for the outbreak...



the Epi LP Custom I have I upgraded all those cheap plastic parts, pickups and all that, then threw all the old bits straight into the ocean to be consumed by some porpoise or turtle, I mean fuck those guys. 

Which outbreak are we talking about? Caronavirus? Zombies? Snowflake Soy boys?


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 25, 2020)

apocalypse is on! Sell short! 

get ya some dusk masks and extra oatmeal. 

perpatory the 12 gauge y’all...

shoot anything that moves.


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## Boofchuck (Feb 25, 2020)

Fuck Gibson for acting this way. It reeks of desperation.

The trump shit on page 3 obliterated my cognition.

This thread is ridiculous.


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 25, 2020)

We should really be thankful to the Almighty Gibson! 

On top of everything else they’ve done for us, giving these endless opportunities for 

“Blowing smoke!”

*Etymology*. The *expression* refers to the once popular medical practice, now fallen into disuse and almost forgotten, of the tobacco *smoke* enema, in which tobacco *smoke was* literally *blown* up a person's rectum.


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## SDMFVan (Feb 26, 2020)

Charlie Foxtrot 3rd said:


> the Epi LP Custom I have I upgraded all those cheap plastic parts, pickups and all that, then threw all the old bits straight into the ocean to be consumed by some porpoise or turtle, I mean fuck those guys.
> 
> Which outbreak are we talking about? Caronavirus? Zombies? Snowflake Soy boys?



Gibson hates the poors so much that the new Epiphone Les Paul Custom I got has an ebony board, graphtech nut, CTS pots, Grover tuners and Probucker pickups.


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 26, 2020)

SDMFVan said:


> Gibson hates the poors so much that the new Epiphone Les Paul Custom I got has an ebony board, graphtech nut, CTS pots, Grover tuners and Probucker pickups.



Yeah I’m pretty pov. I will say changing out all of those parts myself was challenging yet rewarding.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 26, 2020)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Don't make assumptions about my post.





Esp Griffyn said:


> Don't quote me and try and make my words fit your agenda.



I’m adding these to my signature block.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 27, 2020)

Kiesel just sent a *Cease and Desist* order to Harley Benton over the Osiris design. A Super Strat with a Steinberger-style headstock - the very design owned by Gibson. 












Here, let me get some of you started... Oh, and does hypocrisy always taste that way or is the taste disguised on your pedestal?



sleewell said:


> fuck *Kiesel*. seriously i hope they eat a bag of dicks and fall into a deep hole.
> 
> they have no good ideas and free falling revenue so they resort to frivolous lawsuits. that is a 100% bitch move in my book.
> 
> i really hope *Harley Benton* counter sues and at least gets their legal bills paid.





ockis23 said:


> If I was in the market for a V shape, I would definitely buy a *Harley Benton*. Love the *Harley Benton* custom options and at this point with what *Kiesel* has been doing with all these lawsuits, I don't see myself buying from them in the foreseeable future.





Esp Griffyn said:


> *Kiesel* are such a vile organisation. I'd feel slimy playing a *Kiesel* product these days, which I wouldn't anyway, since their stuff is clunky, old-fashioned crap.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 27, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> Kiesel just sent a *Cease and Desist* order to Harley Benton over the Osiris design. A Super Strat with a Steinberger-style headstock - the very design owned by Gibson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so funny. can't make this stuff up.


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## Albake21 (Feb 27, 2020)

That's extremely hypocritical... For the first time ever I was actually on Jeff's side with the whole Gibson thing. Sadly though, that's been thrown out the window with Kiesel sending that cease and desist. Even the Kiesel sheep aren't too happy about it.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 27, 2020)

Albake21 said:


> That's extremely hypocritical... For the first time ever I was actually on Jeff's side with the whole Gibson thing. Sadly though, that's been thrown out the window with Kiesel sending that cease and desist. Even the Kiesel sheep aren't too happy about it.



I don't think you have to pick a side. It just is what it is. Business.


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## Merrekof (Feb 27, 2020)

Boy, this thread is getting interesting 

FWIW: If I wanted I Les Paul, I'd buy an ESP Eclipse. 
Kiesel looks cool, for 5 seconds.. no they're just too much aesthetically..


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 27, 2020)

Wait, is there a source for Kiesel sending out a C&D?


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## ArtDecade (Feb 27, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait, is there a source for Kiesel sending out a C&D?



There is a thread over at TGP that has been raging all day. Apparently it was on Keisel live Facebook last night.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 27, 2020)

If it is indeed true, that's a bad look. lol... Make a big deal and shine a light on how silly a C&D is, make your own. Yikes.

This whole C&D nonsense is a little annoying. It's frustrating because I really like Vaders and LP's. Especially regarding Kiesel... I've loved all of their guitars I've owned, but god damn do I feel a little sleezier every time I put money in Jeff's pocket.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 27, 2020)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Wait, is there a source for Kiesel sending out a C&D?



I just went in and listened to the FB live feed from last night. It is around the 11 minute mark.

"I did send out a cease and desist letter this week to a company that is making an Osiris direct rip-off. It is a company that has been trying to carry my guitars for a long time and I keep telling them "no" every year. And, they went ahead and decided to rip my guitar off. So while we are standing strong against the Gibson thing because it is unfounded and they don't have a leg to stand on.

I do believe in trademarking and design patenting your product, your idea, and putting that out there right away rather than letting the market kind of have their way with something and then trying to defend it. So I did send out a cease and desist letter - or my attorney did - this week for a company that was copying this. I'm sure somebody will throw that link up there - I don't want to mention that company here or mention any names - but they have probably gotten it by now.

It was sent by email and also certified mail. So yeah, I am going to defend anything I have, my design patent. The numbers are up on my website. You can see the patents and patent pendings. So even once it is patent pending you are still fully protected."​
There is more, but I am tired of listening to him and even more tired of having to type this out. He does go on to mention that it is different from the Gibson thing, because "Gibson didn't give a damn to protect it in the fifties" and "they didn't actually design it themselves anyway". Listen to it yourself for clarity and to make sure I didn't misquote the dude.


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## ArtDecade (Feb 27, 2020)

^



Señor Voorhees said:


> If it is indeed true, that's a bad look. lol...


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 27, 2020)

Sounds like a shitty mentality to have, but whatever. "I'll defend my shit, but throw a fit if you do too." Their LP's are pretty similar, as are a few other shapes. Pretty sure gibson has been sending C&D's for ages at this point too... So many explorer/lp/v clones that got canned because of them... I remember Warmoth had a nice Explorer clone before they got a C&D a few years back.

Admittedly, that HB looks a bit more like the Osiris than the Gibbo/Kiesel V's, though still VERY different. It's a pretty unimaginative design from the start, imo. I prefer the control layout on the HB, but the hardware of the Kiesel. It's all good, though. I'm WAY too poor these days to afford any of these outside of the HB. lol


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## Mathemagician (Feb 27, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> I was on the phone with my friend Mark Agnesi the other day...
> 
> I told him I'd like a Les Paul and I had tons of dad rock money I wanted to spend on a guitar. But first, I would like him to do me a favor though because the guitar community has been through a lot and Gibson knows a lot about it. I would like him to find out what happened with this whole situation with Jeff Kiesel, they say Mr Bevels… I guess you have one of your wealthy people… The guitar deals, they say Kiesel has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation.
> 
> I would like to have my wife call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Jeff, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with him. Whatever you can do, it’s very important that you do it if that’s possible.



Is this...is this some sort of political speech copypasta? If so I like it. 



ArtDecade said:


> Kiesel just sent a *Cease and Desist* order to Harley Benton over the Osiris design. A Super Strat with a Steinberger-style headstock - the very design owned by Gibson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is unoriginal. Idk how easy to defend a “strat with the head chopped off” patent. They didn’t bevel it so. I guess Legator is getting a C&D soon too.


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## bracky (Feb 27, 2020)

What a turn of events. I honestly don't think it looks that much like the Osiris with the different headstock and bridge.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 27, 2020)

The nuts don't line up because while they are the same scale, the HB is 22 frets, vs the Kiesel's 24.


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 27, 2020)

Did anyone listen to his conversation with the Guitologist on YouTube, for a moment there I was on his side, and I own one of his guitars. Makes me feel like a dumb cunt. Man what a prick.


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## technomancer (Feb 27, 2020)

SO glad I have gone a different way every time I was tempted to order a Kiesel...

Such a massive douche bag


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 27, 2020)

When Kiesel starts a campaign for goodwill, there's always a catch.


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## ShredmasterD (Feb 27, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Apparently even though Gibson lost the lawsuits in the EU and with Dean over the V body shape, they are trying to get onto Kiesel/Carvin over the Ultra V. The Ultra V looks way less like a Gibson V than a Dean does. At what point does the court just tell Gibson to fuck off and quit wasting people's time?


Gibson hasn't had a new successful guitar design launch in decades. they are living off their past and not innovating for the future. the new investors/parent company simply wants to milk the industry through courts and not compete in the arena of innovation and style design. They are creating ill will in the guitar community with this sour approach.


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## will_shred (Feb 27, 2020)

I love my Gibson, I don't own a Kiesel but everyone I've played has been a fine instrument. Totally different though. If you buy a Gibson its because you want a classic design, if you buy a Kiesel you want something modern and cutting edge. They're not really comparable outside the fact that they both make high end guitars.


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## ramses (Feb 27, 2020)

will_shred said:


> If you buy a Gibson its because you want a classic design, if you buy a Kiesel you want something modern and cutting edge.



Exactly. That's why I bought a Fender Select Strat, even though I knew that there were a number of obviously superior strat alternatives.

That's also why I still haven't discarded the idea of buying a Gibson LP, even though Gibson's assholiness is legendary.


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## Avedas (Feb 27, 2020)

The only thing that drew me to Kiesel is they made a strat copy exactly how I wanted one without having to shell out $3000+ for a custom shop. I don't care at all for their original models, and I guess I no longer have any need to give Jeff Bevels any money.


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## Hollowway (Feb 27, 2020)

Is there going to be a sale on the Osiris? I’d hate for Jeff to lose money, so I’m willing to support him in this time of need.

And should someone tell him about the Mayones Hydra? That is also a headless super strat. Someone needs to do a Cease and Desist there. Those lawsuits aren’t going to file themselves!


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## Hollowway (Feb 27, 2020)

$10 says Jeff knew nothing about C&Ds until the Gibson letter, and now he fancies himself and expert, and will be sending those all over the place.


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 28, 2020)

It’s seems to be the new normal, make some guitars send out C&D’s.


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## Hollowway (Feb 28, 2020)

I’m older than Jeff, and I promise you I started using “rad” in the ‘80s. I’m sending out a fuckin’ C&D manana!


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## MatiasTolkki (Feb 28, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Jeff has got to be having a brogasm over this. Not saying Gibson is in the right by any means, but this plays right into the cult us vs everybody else crap Kiesel thrives on.
> 
> "Call my guys, we need the money to help the family fight the evil empire!"



They are going after more than just the Ultra V (also the old single cut SC i think) and guitologist did an interview with Jeff basically telling everyone that the guitars that are the target of Gibson's faux outrage are being discounted so people can buy them more easily.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 28, 2020)

ShredmasterD said:


> Gibson hasn't had a new successful guitar design launch in decades. they are living off their past and not innovating for the future. the new investors/parent company simply wants to milk the industry through courts and not compete in the arena of innovation and style design. They are creating ill will in the guitar community with this sour approach.



Innovation and change isn’t what drives their sales. Not at all. It’s usually been their downfall whenever they’ve changed anything. Their buyers don’t want headless guitars, auto tuners, shreddy designs... they want reproductions of the 58-60 LP models and 62-65 SG models used by their guitar heroes they grew up watching. And for the life of me I’ll never understand why this draws the ire of so many guitarists around these parts. Whereas you all keep chasing the next guitar (ooh what is Misha using this week?) those buyers want that one guitar Page or Clapton used.


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## possumkiller (Feb 28, 2020)

Dude, fucking Kiesel needs to start suing the fuck out of Ibanez, ESP, Mayones and all the others that have been ripping off his puke burst burl beveled off 1/2 the top designs!


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## MatiasTolkki (Feb 28, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Dude, fucking Kiesel needs to start suing the fuck out of Ibanez, ESP, Mayones and all the others that have been ripping off his puke burst burl beveled off 1/2 the top designs!



I know youre probably being sarcastic but to counter, Ibanez has been doing nice looking tops on their guitars since the release of the JC line in 96. Oh and Ibanez pwns Kiesel on the bevel since the RGD is way before the brand change to Kiesel.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 28, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> $10 says Jeff knew nothing about C&Ds until the Gibson letter, and now he fancies himself and expert, and will be sending those all over the place.



Eh, they've gotten them before (even from Gibson about the UltraV, actually), and regularly will go after aliexpress/ebay knock-offs....but in those cases, it's not just a replica design, but even often their name.


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## Hollowway (Feb 28, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Eh, they've gotten them before (even from Gibson about the UltraV, actually), and regularly will go after aliexpress/ebay knock-offs....but in those cases, it's not just a replica design, but even often their name.


I will say that I whole heartedly support the take down of those Ali express counterfeits and exact copies. It drives me nuts that those guys rip off so many guitar brands.


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## possumkiller (Feb 28, 2020)

MatiasTolkki said:


> I know youre probably being sarcastic but to counter, Ibanez has been doing nice looking tops on their guitars since the release of the JC line in 96. Oh and Ibanez pwns Kiesel on the bevel since the RGD is way before the brand change to Kiesel.


I don't mean the nice tops that guitar makers used to put on guitars. I mean this recent craze of copying the Kiesel aesthetic with putting a top on a guitar then beveling half of it off, bursting just the top and leaving the bevels some other mismatched color or natural.


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## Merrekof (Feb 28, 2020)

Hollowway said:


> I will say that I whole heartedly support the take down of those Ali express counterfeits and exact copies. It drives me nuts that those guys rip off so many guitar brands.


Yep, I agree.. the only thing is..They're untouchable over there. Good luck sending a CnD to a Chinese factory..


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## ErwinBaeyens (Feb 28, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> The nuts don't line up because while they are the same scale, the HB is 22 frets, vs the Kiesel's 24.


Actually if you put both images side by side the and line up the top nuts the scales are pretty much the same. The reason that they do not seem to lineup at first is that the Kiesel bridge is somewhat longer. The fact that it has 22 or 24 frets does nothing to the placement of the nut an bridge. The only thing that shifts in that case is the neck pickup.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 28, 2020)




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## spudmunkey (Feb 28, 2020)

ErwinBaeyens said:


> Actually if you put both images side by side the and line up the top nuts the scales are pretty much the same. The reason that they do not seem to lineup at first is that the Kiesel bridge is somewhat longer. The fact that it has 22 or 24 frets does nothing to the placement of the nut an bridge. The only thing that shifts in that case is the neck pickup.



No, what I meant was that I scaled them the same, but them lined up each guitar's body at their highest frets, which made their nuts not line up because one had more frets.


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## MatiasTolkki (Feb 28, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> Yep, I agree.. the only thing is..They're untouchable over there. Good luck sending a CnD to a Chinese factory..



Especially now since all of the workers have Wuhan flu


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## admgloval (Feb 28, 2020)

I'm not a huge fan of Kiesel either but it amazes me that people defend Gibson in these cases. It might make sense if there was ANYONE left in the company that started it but there is NO ONE. The company went bankrupt and was purchased by a corporation that cares nothing about the history of the guitars, all they care about is profits and making their shareholders happy which I guess IS what companies do. Regardless, you are defending a group of lawyers who most likely care nothing about guitars, all they care about is making money for their client. I am not a fan of 90% of Kiesel's designs but you have to give them credit for allowing the customer to semi-customize their guitar. For fucks sake, why does Gibson still use shitty Rosewood for their fretboards and stone age TOM bridges on their guitars? For those reasons alone, I would never purchase a Gibson. I would buy an LTD before any Gibson model.


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## JSanta (Feb 28, 2020)

admgloval said:


> I'm not a huge fan of Kiesel either but it amazes me that people defend Gibson in these cases. It might make sense if there was ANYONE left in the company that started it but there is NO ONE. The company went bankrupt and was purchased by a corporation that cares nothing about the history of the guitars, all they care about is profits and making their shareholders happy which I guess IS what companies do. Regardless, you are defending a group of lawyers who most likely care nothing about guitars, all they care about is making money for their client. I am not a fan of 90% of Kiesel's designs but you have to give them credit for allowing the customer to semi-customize their guitar. For fucks sake, why does Gibson still use shitty Rosewood for their fretboards and stone age TOM bridges on their guitars? For those reasons alone, I would never purchase a Gibson. I would buy an LTD before any Gibson model.



You talk about caring about the history of the company and then get upset that they still use rosewood for fretboards, and TOM bridges. Which they've done. Since the 1950s. And the design and components still work great today. Companies exist to make money. Period. There isn't a middle ground here. Kiesel is in the exact same position. Jeff isn't whoring himself out there on FB to do anything other than drive purchases from his business. There's literally nothing altruistic or good about it otherwise.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 28, 2020)

admgloval said:


> I'm not a huge fan of Kiesel either but it amazes me that people defend Gibson in these cases. It might make sense if there was ANYONE left in the company that started it but there is NO ONE. The company went bankrupt and was purchased by a corporation that cares nothing about the history of the guitars, all they care about is profits and making their shareholders happy which I guess IS what companies do. Regardless, you are defending a group of lawyers who most likely care nothing about guitars, all they care about is making money for their client. I am not a fan of 90% of Kiesel's designs but you have to give them credit for allowing the customer to semi-customize their guitar. For fucks sake, why does Gibson still use shitty Rosewood for their fretboards and stone age TOM bridges on their guitars? For those reasons alone, I would never purchase a Gibson. I would buy an LTD before any Gibson model.



Poe's Law: The Post


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## admgloval (Feb 28, 2020)

JSanta said:


> You talk about caring about the history of the company and then get upset that they still use rosewood for fretboards, and TOM bridges. Which they've done. Since the 1950s. And the design and components still work great today. Companies exist to make money. Period. There isn't a middle ground here. Kiesel is in the exact same position. Jeff isn't whoring himself out there on FB to do anything other than drive purchases to his business.



I DON't care about the history of Gibson, I was referring to people who defend them. I can appreciate that they are a historic company and that their guitars were used on many famous albums recorded over the years but they do not fit my aesthetic of what I want from a guitar. I prefer modern hardware like fully adjustable Hipshot or even Evertune bridges. That being said, I don't like Jeff Kiesel and his attitude either but I do dig some of their models like the DC series and their California Carved Top models. If Gibson is not going to offer models that have modern appointments, other builders will. And since Gibson didn't file the proper paperwork back in the day to protect their designs, those designs have now proliferated and are considered 'public domain' in most peoples eyes. I think the judges will see that as well if this even makes it to trial.


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## efiltsohg (Feb 28, 2020)

sometimes I feel like the only user on this website that likes rosewood and TOMs


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## JSanta (Feb 28, 2020)

efiltsohg said:


> sometimes I feel like the only user on this website that likes rosewood and TOMs



There's plenty of us here that don't require bevels and evertunes on a guitar


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## ArtDecade (Feb 28, 2020)

admgloval said:


> I'm not a huge fan of Kiesel either but it amazes me that people defend Gibson in these cases. It might make sense if there was ANYONE left in the company that started it but there is NO ONE. The company went bankrupt and was purchased by a corporation that cares nothing about the history of the guitars, all they care about is profits and making their shareholders happy which I guess IS what companies do. Regardless, you are defending a group of lawyers who most likely care nothing about guitars, all they care about is making money for their client. I am not a fan of 90% of Kiesel's designs but you have to give them credit for allowing the customer to semi-customize their guitar. For fucks sake, why does Gibson still use shitty Rosewood for their fretboards and stone age TOM bridges on their guitars? For those reasons alone, I would never purchase a Gibson. I would buy an LTD before any Gibson model.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 28, 2020)

efiltsohg said:


> sometimes I feel like the only user on this website that likes rosewood and TOMs



I like GOOD rosewood, and TOM's that don't collapse. But the market is saturated with garbage rosewood, and shitty similar-looking hrdware. Same with bolt-ons.


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## Soya (Feb 28, 2020)

I think I actually prefer TOM's, the neck angle makes playing more comfortable. But Ebony all day, sorry.


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## Soya (Feb 28, 2020)

Soya said:


> I think I actually prefer TOM's, the neck angle makes playing more comfortable. But Ebony all day, sorry. Also, no thanks to Kiesel and Gibson.


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## vilk (Feb 28, 2020)

I don't mind a TOM. It's better than putting your hand on _pokey_ grub screws. It's way fewer parts and effort than a floyd rose. The only thing I might like better is a good wraparound with adjustable intonation... but really, that's practically a TOM!

QUESTION!!
Wraparound bridges with adjustable intonation aren't anything new; Iommi swapped his TOM+stopbar out for one of these back in the 70s (and I'm sure they were probably around long before then?). Why would Gibson want to continue making guitars with a TOM instead of an adjustable wraparound? It's more routing, more pieces to order, more work involved with building a guitar with a TOM as compared with an adjustable wraparound, and as far as I can tell basically no advantage. Am I mistaken?


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## admgloval (Feb 28, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


>



Not sure what I said that didn't make sense, care to explain?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Feb 28, 2020)

vilk said:


> QUESTION!!
> Wraparound bridges with adjustable intonation aren't anything new; Iommi swapped his TOM+stopbar out for one of these back in the 70s (and I'm sure they were probably around long before then?). Why would Gibson want to continue making guitars with a TOM instead of an adjustable wraparound? It's more routing, more pieces to order, more work involved with building a guitar with a TOM as compared with an adjustable wraparound, and as far as I can tell basically no advantage. Am I mistaken?



You're talking about a company that intentionally makes the headstock joint of their guitars weak for the sake of tradition.


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## Señor Voorhees (Feb 28, 2020)

TOM bridges are great, imo. Probably my favorite bridge type. As is a nice piece of rosewood, or rosewood alternative. (I had an epi with a gorgeous piece of Pau Ferro.) I do like ebony, but I'm not super picky between rosewood and ebony.

As for why Gibson uses them? They sell a shitload of guitars with those specs... Any time they try changing or doing something drastically different, they get shit on.

edit: JazzHands brings up another fascinating point. It's also amusing because there are a lot of people who want Epiphone to follow suit with that open book headstock, with it's notoriously mediocre tuning stability.


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 28, 2020)

Soya said:


> I think I actually prefer TOM's, the neck angle makes playing more comfortable. But Ebony all day, sorry.



I’m with you on that one, ebony all day erry day.


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## Hollowway (Feb 28, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> I like GOOD rosewood, and TOM's that don't collapse. But the market is saturated with garbage rosewood, and shitty similar-looking hrdware. Same with bolt-ons.


Same. I know I beat the “rosewood sucks” drum quite a bit, but nice rosewood is actually super cool.


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## budda (Feb 28, 2020)

vilk said:


> I don't mind a TOM. It's better than putting your hand on _pokey_ grub screws. It's way fewer parts and effort than a floyd rose. The only thing I might like better is a good wraparound with adjustable intonation... but really, that's practically a TOM!
> 
> QUESTION!!
> Wraparound bridges with adjustable intonation aren't anything new; Iommi swapped his TOM+stopbar out for one of these back in the 70s (and I'm sure they were probably around long before then?). Why would Gibson want to continue making guitars with a TOM instead of an adjustable wraparound? It's more routing, more pieces to order, more work involved with building a guitar with a TOM as compared with an adjustable wraparound, and as far as I can tell basically no advantage. Am I mistaken?



Its what everyone is used to with them.

Wraptails go on limited editions.


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## Merrekof (Feb 29, 2020)

Charlie Foxtrot 3rd said:


> I’m with you on that one, ebony all day erry day.


Same here, I said it here before "I like my fretboard maple or black/ebony"
But, the Ibanez FR1620 I bought a couple of weeks ago has a rosewood fb. This might just be one of the nicest rosewood fretboards I've ever seen.


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## Charlie Foxtrot 3rd (Feb 29, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> Same here, I said it here before "I like my fretboard maple or black/ebony"
> But, the Ibanez FR1620 I bought a couple of weeks ago has a rosewood fb. This might just be one of the nicest rosewood fretboards I've ever seen.



I prefer the feel of ebony which sounds weird to say but it just feels good in the hand and under the fingers. I’m not a wood snob or anything just a preference.


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## MatiasTolkki (Feb 29, 2020)

Playing wise, anything is fine. Looks wise, maple every time.


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## USMarine75 (Feb 29, 2020)

admgloval said:


> Not sure what I said that didn't make sense, care to explain?



I'm guessing it was more the sheer dumbassery of the post than the nonsensical part that irritated him, but who am I to judge.


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## coupe89 (Mar 2, 2020)

ArtDecade said:


> Kiesel just sent a *Cease and Desist* order to Harley Benton over the Osiris design. A Super Strat with a Steinberger-style headstock - the very design owned by Gibson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which side will the youtubers and the people in their comment sections pick in this fight?


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## ArtDecade (Mar 3, 2020)

coupe89 said:


> Which side will the youtubers and the people in their comment sections pick in this fight?



It doesn't matter, because we all win when they  fight each other.


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## fps (Apr 22, 2020)

Very odd that some people think what Kiesel is doing is hypocrisy. It's not. There is an unfounded claim, in their view, by Gibson, and they have what they believe is a very justifiable claim. So the two things are not the same.


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## lewis (Apr 22, 2020)

RE. the Tune O matic, the only complaint ive ever had is lack of Intonation space. Which the Hipshot replacement completely fixes.
So tbh its a non issue these days and its certainly blown out of proportion.
The other is comfort which again the Hipshot solves because its smoother, rounder etc


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## MatiasTolkki (Apr 22, 2020)

fps said:


> Very odd that some people think what Kiesel is doing is hypocrisy. It's not. There is an unfounded claim, in their view, by Gibson, and they have what they believe is a very justifiable claim. So the two things are not the same.



Well Carvin DID make a name for themselves copy-pasting PRS designs and using PRS scale (25" over the more traditional 25.5 or 24.75) which, iirc they got sued for by PRS and lost. I dont remember if it was PRS though, i do know they lost a couple lawsuits before though.


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## coupe89 (Apr 23, 2020)

I hope Gibson wins with the bullshit Jeff just did to the guy with the roasted maple neck. I just lost my brother too and Jeff deserves having all his teeth kicked out of his head for his comment about the guy posting about losing his brother.


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## lewis (Apr 23, 2020)

coupe89 said:


> I hope Gibson wins with the bullshit Jeff just did to the guy with the roasted maple neck. I just lost my brother too and Jeff deserves having all his teeth kicked out of his head for his comment about the guy posting about losing his brother.


IF Jeffs comment was truly made after the customer went public with his brothers Death, then Jeff deserves for Kiesel to cease to exist


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## MatiasTolkki (Apr 23, 2020)

lewis said:


> IF Jeffs comment was truly made after the customer went public with his brothers Death, then Jeff deserves for Kiesel to cease to exist



He didnt even notice the entirety of the post, and blew it off like "oh we've all been through shit, you arent special."


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## Jeff (Apr 23, 2020)

coupe89 said:


> I hope Gibson wins with the bullshit Jeff just did to the guy with the roasted maple neck. I just lost my brother too and Jeff deserves having all his teeth kicked out of his head for his comment about the guy posting about losing his brother.



I’m no Kiesel fan, but Jeff is right about the designs not being similar, and overall it’ll set an extremely bad precedent for the industry if Gibson wins.


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## MatiasTolkki (Apr 23, 2020)

Jeff said:


> I’m no Kiesel fan, but Jeff is right about the designs not being similar, and overall it’ll set an extremely bad precedent for the industry if Gibson wins.



I agree, the V220 is NOTHING like a V or whatever.


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## technomancer (Apr 23, 2020)

Jeff said:


> I’m no Kiesel fan, but Jeff is right about the designs not being similar, and overall it’ll set an extremely bad precedent for the industry if Gibson wins.



Yep, but Kiesel sending their own cease and desist to somebody for a headless immediately after ranting about receiving one from Gibson is pretty damn funny.

It's like battle of the douche bag guitar companies.


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## Jeff (Apr 23, 2020)

technomancer said:


> Yep, but Kiesel sending their own cease and desist to somebody for a headless immediately after ranting about receiving one from Gibson is pretty damn funny.
> 
> It's like battle of the douche bag guitar companies.



I agree with that too. It doesn’t help their image, right after acting all shocked by the Gibson CnD. Then again, it’s rare JeffBro cares about public perception.


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## spudmunkey (Apr 23, 2020)

The "fine print" of it is that the situations are different. Gibson doesn't really have a legal leg to stand on. Kiesel does, because they have a current and valid design patent, and haven't led several decades pass by before trying to enforce whatever trademark/design patent they might have been able to get back in the day. Gibson has every right to protect whatever designs or innovations they come up with now-a-days...and then they would be in the same shoes as Kiesel.


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## Marcella (Feb 1, 2021)

A patent is only good for 20 years.


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## spudmunkey (Feb 1, 2021)

Marcella said:


> A patent is only good for 20 years.


That's for a utility patent. Design patents are even shorter: 15 years.


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## Esp Griffyn (Feb 2, 2021)

I missed the whole episode with the maple fretboard that so clearly wasn't roasted. Jeff going on Instagram live to blast the customer, holy shit what a colossal bell end.


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## lewis (Feb 2, 2021)

authentic wankers


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## lewis (Feb 2, 2021)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I missed the whole episode with the maple fretboard that so clearly wasn't roasted. Jeff going on Instagram live to blast the customer, holy shit what a colossal bell end.


absolutely.

Total ego maniac who goes overboard with that and the defense of his company to mask the fact he is actually a seriously insecure bellend.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 2, 2021)

Hehe. Bellend.


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