# History of seven-string solidbodies



## voxhumana

Dear all

I'm not a seven-string player. I am however a senior editor at Wikipedia, (see User:Manning Bartlett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

We've been having a problem there with an individual who is presenting a very specific account of the history of seven-string guitars. I am polling the members of this community to see if there is any general support for this person's account of events.

The person is named Alex Gregory, and he (or an ardent fan/associate) has been constantly revising any page that mentions a seven-string guitar with the claim that he is the "inventor" of this instrument. Occasionally this claim is qualified as only referring to solidbody versions.

I have thus far been able to independently verify that Mr Gregory did have an agreement with Fender in 1987 to produce a prototype solidbody seven string. (See The Fender Stratocaster - Google Books) Two or three prototypes were made, but the guitar never went into production.

It is also a fact that Mr Gregory has been issued a number of patents for seven string guitar design, and as a result he claims this proves he "invented" the concept. However my own review of the patents indicates that they have been issued for specific design parameters of the instruments, and not for the seven-string concept in general.

What I have not been able to find is 
(a) an independent resource (eg.reputable magazine/journal) that substantiates Mr Gregory's claims or 
(b) evidence of a solidbody seven-string that predates 1987 which would invalidate his claiim.

If anyone can assist me in providing (or pointing me in the direction of) evidence of either case, I would be grateful.

For general interest, we have thus far been able to refute several other of Alex Gregory's claims. 
1 - His website and his artist profile at Fender indicates he studied classical composition at the University of Milan. However this university does not have (and has never had) a music faculty. 

2 - He claims to have been granted the title "Maestro" by either Queen Elizabeth II or by the British Government. This is patently false. "Maestro" is not an official title and no such title has ever been awarded by any British institution. Our investigation has established only that Alex Gregory applied for and received permission to have the title Maestro added to his passport. It is also possible (but unproven) that he may have legally changed his name to this effect. This is not of any particular significance however. Any British citizen is free to also do this, as the title "maestro" is an unofficial and hence unprotected title (in contrast to formally protected titles such as 'Doctor', 'Professor', 'Justice', etc).

Again, thanks in advance for any assistance people may be able to provide.


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## Kevan

*GEORGE VAN EPS*

George Van Eps - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## voxhumana

Sorry I should have mentioned that. We're well aware that George Van Eps commissioned Epiphone to build a seven-string archtop electric guitar in 1938, which refutes the statement that Gregory "invented" the seven-string electric.

My question above specifically relates to solidbody seven-strings.


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## DevinShidaker

Well it is known that Steve Vai used a prototype Ibanez Universe 7 string on the Whitesnake album "Slip of the Tongue", which was released in 1989. I will try to find more info on when he had the guitar built.


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## Nazca

I thought it was Steve Vai, but then I heard about this person named Lenny Breau had invented it first. I may be wrong.


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## DevinShidaker

Builder Profile: Kirk Sand Guitars - Premier Guitar

Kirk Sand Guitars invented the solid body 7 string electric guitar in 1982 or 1983 for Lenny Breau. The guitar had a 22.75 inch scale and a solid mahogany body.


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## voxhumana

Nazca said:


> I thought it was Steve Vai, but then I heard about this person named Lenny Breau had invented it first. I may be wrong.


 
Bingo - that name was all I needed. I googled his name and immediately found this: "Lenny Breau Remembered" By Jim Ferguson

This is from a reliable source (which Wikipedia requires) and although the article doesn't give an exact year, it can be deduced from the text that the instrument was built somewhere between 1979 and 1984.

Hugely appreciated.


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## voxhumana

envenomedcky said:


> Builder Profile: Kirk Sand Guitars - Premier Guitar
> 
> Kirk Sand Guitars invented the solid body 7 string electric guitar in 1982 or 1983 for Lenny Breau. The guitar had a 22.75 inch scale and a solid mahogany body.


 
I hadn't seen this when I posted my previous comment, but a huge thank you as well. That's pretty conclusive evidence.


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## voxhumana

I've now revised the Wikipedia article, thank you for your invaluable assistance.
Seven-string guitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## groph

I can't contribute anything useful to the history, but it is great to see someone from Wikipedia (by far one of the best things on the Internet) coming here for information. You've probably come to the right place. Thank you and the rest of Wikipedia for providing us with the greatest way to kill 4 or 5 hours by endlessly clicking through links to different articles!


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## voxhumana

Gee let me think this through. An article on seven-string guitars. A forum called "sevenstring.org".

Yes I know, it's amazing how brilliantly I put these things together. It's a gift really.

<grin>

(In all seriousness, I came here fully expecting that this community would be able to sort the matter out. Even so, I was still amazed at the speed at which it happened).


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## mountainjam

Hey that's awesome. I love wikipedia. Very glad you guys are keeping the facts straight!


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## The Munk

Cool thread!


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## Rook

Awesome


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## 13point9

Awesome stuff  always amazes me how influential this forum is sometimes...

Make sure to comeback anytime there is a question about the various fields discussed here OP


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## Nazca

voxhumana said:


> Bingo - that name was all I needed. I googled his name and immediately found this: "Lenny Breau Remembered" By Jim Ferguson
> 
> This is from a reliable source (which Wikipedia requires) and although the article doesn't give an exact year, it can be deduced from the text that the instrument was built somewhere between 1979 and 1984.
> 
> Hugely appreciated.



Hey, no worries . Always like to be involved.


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## asmegin_slayer

Here is the video of that guitar!


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## Herrick

The Munk said:


> Cool thread!



Agreed. It's like a movie where a private investigator seeks the experts' opinion


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## WickedSymphony

Herrick said:


> Agreed. It's like a movie where a private investigator seeks the experts' opinion



And instead he came to us.


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## littlephil

Nazca said:


> I thought it was Steve Vai, but then I heard about this person named Lenny Breau had invented it first. I may be wrong.



I remember hearing Vai talking about the creation of the Universe lol and he mentioned that someone at Ibanez had an 8 string way back then.
Of topic, but pretty cool nonetheless (if its true)


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## Stealthdjentstic

The "maestro" is the biggest douche ever, just ban his IP.


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## Coffee Elf

What a great thread. Stuff like this is why I love the intarwebs.


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## Kr1zalid

Just read the Wiki article...

Feels like better than the last one...


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## ShadyDavey

In the interests of total accuracy it's worthwhile mentioning that Uli Jon Roth uses a 7-string solidbody and has done since the mid 80's - it's extremely difficult to actually attach a precise chronology to his Sky Guitars (and indeed, I haven't seen an exact date to my knowledge) but he has noted in interviews that Steve Vai played a seven-string variant Sky Guitar prior to the release of the Ibanez Universe - it's uncertain if he felt that Steve was influenced by him but whilst far from a major artist his involvement seems to be worth mentioning


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## sonofabias

I'm not absolutely certain but I think I saw Vai play that guitar once with Zappa .


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## bostjan

I have a feeling that whoever really invented the seven string guitar never really thought of himself (or possibly herself) as an inventor. After all, the concept of the number seven dates back to pre-antiquity, well before the invention of the guitar. It'd be like asking who invented the house with seven rooms or the public bathroom with seven toilets - someone probably just thought "Hey, I've run out of room here! Someone should add an extra string/room/toilet, because it would be a bit more practical." 

I think that most seven string guitar historians would agree that Alex Gregory belongs in a footnote or endnote- kind of like in the Bible, how occaisionally there is a footnote that says something with which most scolars don't agree, for example "Some sources say that Goliath actually smote David with the penis-bone of a whale."


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## Durero

Very cool wikipedia article


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## BucketheadRules

Does make you wonder how desperate Alex Gregory is for recognition... I think we're dealing with someone here who has a leeetle bit of an inferiority complex.


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## Durero

^  Anyone who feels the need to be addressed as a (self-proclamed) 'maestro' is pretty sad to me.

The incredible tastelessness of his album cover from back in the day really says it all.


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## bostjan

^ Is that an electric mandolin? How bizzare.


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## voxhumana

BucketheadRules said:


> Does make you wonder how desperate Alex Gregory is for recognition... I think we're dealing with someone here who has a leeetle bit of an inferiority complex.


 
Ah, the "Maestro" Alex Gregory... I and a group of other Wikipedians have had to be quite vigilant in recent months, as he has been attempting to riddle the Encyclopedia with claims regarding his "astonishing" achievements. (OK in fairness I cannot prove it is Gregory himself - it may just be an ardent fan, if such things exist).

Here is a bit of "behind the scenes" stuff from Wikipedia which might amuse anyone who has ever encountered Mr Gregory.
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Gregory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(To be fair, this discussion is still open, so the article may not be deleted. These sorts of things take about a week to resolve).

PS - re the earlier comments about being involved with Wikipedia and the way this weird repository of knowledge works: I'm glad you guys are getting such a kick out of this process 

Here's me giving credit where credit is due:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Seven-string_guitar#Credit_where_credit_is_due:


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## WickedSymphony

Someone in Sydney buy this man a beer asap.


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## Nazca

voxhumana said:


> Ah, the "Maestro" Alex Gregory... I and a group of other Wikipedians have had to be quite vigilant in recent months, as he has been attempting to riddle the Encyclopedia with claims regarding his "astonishing" achievements. (OK in fairness I cannot prove it is Gregory himself - it may just be an ardent fan, if such things exist).
> 
> Here is a bit of "behind the scenes" stuff from Wikipedia which might amuse anyone who has ever encountered Mr Gregory.
> Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Gregory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> (To be fair, this discussion is still open, so the article may not be deleted. These sorts of things take about a week to resolve).
> 
> PS - re the earlier comments about being involved with Wikipedia and the way this weird repository of knowledge works: I'm glad you guys are getting such a kick out of this process
> 
> Here's me giving credit where credit is due:
> Talk:Seven-string guitar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:



Just out of interest, having never conversed with a "Wikipedian" before, is this a full time job for you or a hobby?


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## voxhumana

Nazca said:


> Just out of interest, having never conversed with a "Wikipedian" before, is this a full time job for you or a hobby?


 
Just a hobby, but it's been one for nearly ten years. Wikipedia only has ten or so full-time people, and the pay is awful. (Wikipedia has no advertising, so it only gets money from it's annual "please give us some money" campaign).


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## 5656130

the best is if you look for this guys music on utube most of the comments are asking if hes just a parody of the shred genre and not an actualy musician haha


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## Cyanide_Anima

Kudos to voxhumana! This 'maestro' seems like a real doucher. The first few sentences on the older version of the wikipedia article says it all.

"Alexander Gregory, known as Maestro Alex Gregory and addressed by the British government by the title of Maestro, is a musical composer, shred guitar virtuoso, shred mandolin virtuoso, and a musical inventor.[1] He is the inventor of the seven string electric guitar. He is also the premier heavy metal mandolinist [2] and has been described as being among the 50 fastest guitarists of all time."

Shred mandolin? bwahahahaha!!!! That is really, really funny for some reason.


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## 5656130

Cyanide_Anima said:


> Shred mandolin? bwahahahaha!!!! That is really, really funny for some reason.


 
yeah his album cover is him with a elctric manodlin pissing on the grave of steve vai


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## Explorer

If I recall correctly, Gregory, hereafter referred to as "the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory," has at some point also claimed that he had invented full fifths tuning on five-course instruments, in spite of the existence of five-course Vega cylinder-back mandolin/mandolas from the early 1900s. 

It's like that Monty Python routine...

Game Show Host (John Cleese): Good evening and welcome to Stake Your Claim. First this evening we have Mr Norman Voles of Gravesend who claims he wrote all Shakespeare's works. Mr Voles, I understand you claim that you wrote all those plays normally attributed to Shakespeare?

Voles (Michael Palin): That is correct. I wrote all his plays and my wife and I
wrote his sonnets.

Host: Mr Voles, these plays are known to have been performed in the early 17th century. How old are you, Mr Voles?

Voles: 43.

Host: Well, how is it possible for you to have written plays performed over 300 years before you were born?

Voles: Ah well. This is where my claim falls to the ground.

Host: Ah!

Voles: There's no possible way of answering that argument, I'm afraid. I was only hoping you would not make that particular point, but I can see you're more than a match for me!

Host: Mr Voles, thank you very much for coming along.

Voles: My pleasure.
----

Maybe the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory is hoping that no one notices the false claims when he threatens suit for patent infrigement. 

*laugh*

I must say, it's interesting to read that many of his widely disseminated claims have turned out to be without merit, and are likely just complete intentional falsehoods. 

Personally, I think it would be funnier if Wikipedia had the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory's claims in the article, with some small inserted text. "The Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory claims that his invention of the seven-string solidbody electric guitar in 1987 should be accepted as predating actual physical examples from 1982. Wikipedia can find no evidence of the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory having invented time travel." *laugh*

I know that normally the truth will come out, but I have to admit to a small amount of schadenfreude at the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory having all this out in public through the work of the intrepid Wikipedia crew. As long as he was willing to make small claims, he could have had his unearned fame, but he had to overreach....


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## BucketheadRules

5656130 said:


> yeah his album cover is him with a elctric manodlin pissing on the grave of steve vai



Which just makes him even more of a staggeringly tasteless, egomaniacal wanker.


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## Cyanide_Anima

5656130 said:


> yeah his album cover is him with a elctric manodlin pissing on the grave of steve vai



Yeah, umm. That has to be the worst album cover ever. You just know that the stream being directed at Vai's 'grave' has some significance to it. Maybe, it's a big "Fuck you Steve, for being greater than me in every way..." kind of thing. He seems want to steal his greatness. The 'maestro doucher' guy craves notoriety he doesn't even deserve!


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## MAW

I was waiting until I had a 7 string or ERG to join all you fine folks, but since no one had mentioned this link, I thought I'd best make a small effort to help clear things up. I remembered seeing a 7 string in the historic pictures section of the Alembic site, and thought I'd double check for dates. This link should add another nail to the coffin of Mr Gregory's claims.

Alembic Club: ALEMBIC CUSTOM 7STRG #074


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## voxhumana

Cyanide_Anima said:


> Kudos to voxhumana! This 'maestro' seems like a real doucher. The first few sentences on the older version of the wikipedia article says it all.
> 
> "Alexander Gregory, known as Maestro Alex Gregory and addressed by the British government by the title of Maestro, is a musical composer, shred guitar virtuoso, shred mandolin virtuoso, and a musical inventor.[1] He is the inventor of the seven string electric guitar. He is also the premier heavy metal mandolinist [2] and has been described as being among the 50 fastest guitarists of all time."


 
Yes, that is the sort of thing we have had to clean up. This stuff had been spread across any article to do with guitars, mandolins or classical composition. There has been a team of four of us who thoroughly checked all of these things. Our findings:

1 - There is no such title as "Maestro" and it was never bestowed by the Queen or the British government. On being challenged, Gregory (or his representative) produced a letter from a minor official at the British passport office which indicated his request to have the title "Maestro" added to his passport had been approved (possibly as the result of a legal name change).
2 - He did not study classical composition at the University of Milan, as claimed in his Fender profile. This university does not have (and has never had) a music faculty. 
3 - He does not have any film/television credits for music listed on IMDb, so it is unlikely he "was employed by the BBC as a composer" as also claimed in his bio. (IMDb is extremely reliable in this regard)
4 - Thanks to the good folks here, we have established he did not invent the seven-string guitar.
5 - The claimed "Premier heavy metal mandolinist" cited a blog post where someone had written "Rock and roll is short on mandolinists. Gregory may be the first."
6 - "50 fastest guitarists of all time" - he was not included in the list. His name was however mentioned in a postscript at the end of this Guitar World article under the heading "Where are they now?", in connection with the notorious cover art of his album that featured the "graves" of Vai and Malmsteen.

I admit I'm enjoying being able to relate all of this analysis here in this forum - in honestly this has been a tedious and unpleasant effort. I expect his article will be deleted and salted (this latter term means we can prevent the article from ever being recreated).

One positive sidenote, during our research we uncovered a man also named Alex Gregory who does not yet have a Wikipedia article. This gent has five prime-time Emmy nominations for screenwriting and was the head writer for Frasier and other TV shows. Now THAT's a *real* achievement.


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## TimSE

Coffee Elf said:


> What a great thread. Stuff like this is why I love the intarwebs.


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## Damo707

lol this dude is complete bullshit, maybe in his own strange way he gets a kick out of it. I havent heard any of his music as yet. can he play like Malmstein or Vai?


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## Cyanide_Anima

I dunno... He makes boring recreations of much better music...



Some of those bends... ouch. hehe.


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## Explorer

MAW said:


> I was waiting until I had a 7 string or ERG to join all you fine folks, but since no one had mentioned this link, I thought I'd best make a small effort to help clear things up. I remembered seeing a 7 string in the historic pictures section of the Alembic site, and thought I'd double check for dates. This link should add another nail to the coffin of Mr Gregory's claims.
> 
> Alembic Club: ALEMBIC CUSTOM 7STRG #074









From the link: "ALEMBIC CUSTOM 7STRG #074 - [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]THIS WAS TAKEN IN 1981, DOVER HEIGHTS, SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA. THE GTR IS NICKNAMED 'JEN' AFTER MY GIRLFRIEND AT THE TIME.[/FONT]"

"[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]This guitar is also featured in the Historic Pictures section on the Alembic web site. Great guitar."

It would be great to find out from Alembic the exact date of manufacture, and to get permission to put the photo on Wikipedia along with that date. *laugh*

[/FONT]


voxhumana said:


> 6 - "50 fastest guitarists of all time" - he was not included in the list. His name was however mentioned in a postscript at the end of this Guitar World article under the heading "Where are they now?", in connection with the notorious cover art of his album that featured the "graves" of Vai and Malmsteen.
> 
> ...I expect his article will be deleted and salted (this latter term means we can prevent the article from ever being recreated).



Point 6 is a seriously funny nod to "Spinal Tap." I also like that you guys digitally salt the earth. *laugh*

I thanked your initial post, and can't add to your reputation, but for a one-issue member who isn't likely to be here, I love that you have risen in community esteem. Thanks for your service to the community!

And, for you lazy sods who haven't yet thanked that first post... well? *laugh*
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]
Oh, by the way... I forgot to mention "Pentasystem," the name which the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory gave to the previously existing full-fifths tuning for five-course instruments. I figure a search engine would find this thread a little more easily if I mention the "Pentasystem" rebranding by name.

That's right... I said Pentasystem! *laugh*
[/FONT]


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## voxhumana

MAW said:


> I remembered seeing a 7 string in the historic pictures section of the Alembic site, and thought I'd double check for dates.
> Alembic Club: ALEMBIC CUSTOM 7STRG #074


 
Hmmm, interesting. Alembic date this picture as at November 1977. 
Alembic - Historic Pictures

I have emailed Alembic to see if they can provide further information.


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## voxhumana

ShadyDavey said:


> In the interests of total accuracy it's worthwhile mentioning that Uli Jon Roth uses a 7-string solidbody and has done since the mid 80's - it's extremely difficult to actually attach a precise chronology to his Sky Guitars (and indeed, I haven't seen an exact date to my knowledge) but he has noted in interviews that Steve Vai played a seven-string variant Sky Guitar prior to the release of the Ibanez Universe - it's uncertain if he felt that Steve was influenced by him but whilst far from a major artist his involvement seems to be worth mentioning


 
I did a basic search about this but came up empty-handed. I can find numerous references to Roth and seven string guitars, and also to the "Mighty Wing". However I couldn't find anything which categorically showed that these instruments existed in the mid-80s or earlier. (My inability to find something means nothing of course).

If you (or anyone else) comes up with some reference material concerning these guitars, please send it my way. (Feel free to add it to my Wikipedia page as well - User talk:Manning Bartlett - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


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## voxhumana

Explorer said:


> [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica]It would be great to find out from Alembic the exact date of manufacture, and to get permission to put the photo on Wikipedia along with that date.



[/FONT] 
See my above post concerning this very idea. 




Explorer said:


> I thanked your initial post, and can't add to your reputation, but for a one-issue member who isn't likely to be here, I love that you have risen in community esteem. Thanks for your service to the community!


 
I was not aware of this feature on the forum until you mentioned it. I will not disclose my speculation about the identity of the solitary forum member that "disliked" my original post...


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## voxhumana

sonofabias said:


> I'm not absolutely certain but I think I saw Vai play that guitar once with Zappa .


 
I'm a little bit doubtful about this, based on my previous work on articles concerning Zappa. However I will take it to alt.fan.frank-zappa, where the hardcore Zappa obsessives can be found. I've also sent an email to vai.com, although I don't expect a swift reply, assuming I get a reply at all.


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## BucketheadRules

Damo707 said:


> lol this dude is complete bullshit, maybe in his own strange way he gets a kick out of it. I havent heard any of his music as yet. can he play like Malmstein or Vai?



No, not really.


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## voxhumana

Alembic Update:

I got an email back from Alembic (from the president of the company, no less).

=====================

Dear Manning,
Thank you for your inquiry.
Yes we made a 7 string guitar in 1977. It was custom made for Carol Kaye.
Unfortunately we weren't as good at taking photos as making instruments.
Here is a link to a photo of that guitar.
http://www3.alembic.com/img/hist_7string.jpg

Some Specs on it:
*Alembic Series I Guitar
*Long scale 25.5 "
*Fan Peghead with Vermilion front and Back veneers
*Neck thru construction Maple 7 piece lamiante of 4 maple and 3 purpleheart neck laminates
*Ebony 24 fret 2 octave fingerboard Abalone Alembic Ovals
*Top and Back of Eastern Flame Maple
*Mahogany core
*Alembic solid brass handmade bridge, nut, tailpiece, brass backplates
*Two large single coil Alembic Series I pieckups with center hum-cancelling pickup.
*Alembic Series I electronics, 2 volume, two Low pass Alembic Tone/Filters, 2 'Q' Switches, Pickup selector 
switch-bridge-both-neck-standby
* 5 pin stereo out or mono jack.
*Sterling silver handcut Alembic Logo

If you have any questions please email me.

Kind Regards,
Susan Wickersham
President
Alembic Inc

====================

So there you go - that's (possibly) the first ever 7 string solid body.


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## Coffee Elf

voxhumana said:


> So there you go - that's (possibly) the first ever 7 string solid body.



This just keeps getting better. I love this thread so much.


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## voxhumana

Coffee Elf said:


> This just keeps getting better. I love this thread so much.


 
LOL - then you'll be pleased to know I just emailed Carol Kaye about this.


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## Durero

Wow 1977!

Fantastic work voxhumana - a real service to our community 

Very much appreciated.


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## Explorer

voxhumana said:


> [/FONT][/SIZE] I was not aware of this feature on the forum until you mentioned it. I will not disclose my speculation about the identity of the solitary forum member that "disliked" my original post...



Well, here's a suggestion:

Although the normal users cannot see who posts reputation unless the person self-identifies, the moderators can.

The rules prevent harassment, and that includes attacking other members without reason. 

So, if you sent a private message to a moderator (look at the Public Ban List for one, or, in the "Thanked by" list at the end of your initial post, Technomancer is one as well), you might suggest they take a look at that individual, and to see if that person registered purely to comment negatively about this thread... or, at least if they had only done that action up until I suggested it be looked at. That would probably get them banned, if only temporarily, and immortalized in the Public Ban List. 

It would be funny if the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory were to have logged on here only to troll. *laugh*

(Yes, I've decided to use the entire phrase "Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory" so that there is more for a search engine to grab onto, and to make it more likely this thread shows up in search engines therefore. *laugh* I'll be editing my previous posts with this in mind... *and* adding the term "Pentasystem" as well, so that his co-opting of the full-fifths tuning for five-course instruments will also show up in search engines. *laugh*)

Cheers!


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## voxhumana

Explorer said:


> Well, here's a suggestion:
> 
> ...if you sent a private message to a moderator (look at the Public Ban List for one, or, in the "Thanked by" list at the end of your initial post, Technomancer is one as well), you might suggest they take a look at that individual, and to see if that person registered purely to comment negatively about this thread... or, at least if they had only done that action up until I suggested it be looked at.
> Cheers!


 
I'm kinda busy, but feel free to investigate it yourself if you want.

To the moderators: I duly authorise Explorer to ask these questions about my account and I similarly authorise you to release said information to him/her.


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## Explorer

*laugh*

I don't think they'd do that, but if any of them are curious at this point, maybe they'd look into it themselves....


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## Cyanide_Anima

Yeah, that is very odd! I don't understand why someone would dislike Vox's post when all he was trying to do was help, Jeeez!


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## voxhumana

Cyanide_Anima said:


> Yeah, that is very odd! I don't understand why someone would dislike Vox's post when all he was trying to do was help, Jeeez!


 
Well, I suspect there might be *one* specific person who doesn't really appreciate my efforts to ascertain the actual history of the seven-string guitar...

On that note - if anyone lives in Las Vegas and is attending the John Wackerman (featuring Allan Holdsworth) clinic on Sunday Apr 3, 2011 (for details see www.johnwackerman.com), could they ask Allan about his childhood memories of all that time he spent with Alex Gregory. 

(No, I'm not making this up)
Chapter 2: THE 1987/1988 FENDER 7 STRING STRATOCASTER MAESTR


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## Nazca

voxhumana said:


> Well, I suspect there might be *one* specific person who doesn't really appreciate my efforts to ascertain the actual history of the seven-string guitar...
> 
> On that note - if anyone lives in Las Vegas and is attending the John Wackerman (featuring Allan Holdsworth) clinic on Sunday Apr 3, 2011 (for details see www.johnwackerman.com), could they ask Allan about his childhood memories of all that time he spent with Alex Gregory.
> 
> (No, I'm not making this up)
> Chapter 2: THE 1987/1988 FENDER 7 STRING STRATOCASTER MAESTR



He spelt "Allan" wrong...


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## Miek

Nazca said:


> He spelt "Allan" wrong...



Take it up with Holdsworth's parents.


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## Explorer

This just gets better and better...


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## Cyanide_Anima

^+1

"Both Gibson and Fender Musical Instruments , being the true giants and real innovators in guitar making history were very familiar with any previous 7 string instruments, and felt that this new 7 String Electric Guitar By Gregory was so radically different that it should also have its own name. Credit must be given to Dan Smith (at the time Vice President/ Marketing at Fender) for his vision as they all toyed with the idea of calling it the new 7 String GUITOLIN."

This man's ego is larger than one of Peter North's loads. Yes, that was a vulgar statement. lol.


----------



## voxhumana

OK, back on topic 

The alembic plot thickens. Carol Kaye responded and tells me she had nothing to do with this guitar.

-----------

*From*: "Carol Kaye" <her email>
*Sent*: Tuesday, 22 February 2011 5:57 PM
*To*: <my email>
*Subject*: Re: Alembic seven-string guitar

No it wasn't me. I had a multiple string bass made think it was 9 
strings and was eventually scrapped, it wasn't 7 strings tho' and bass 
is not a guitar.

-----------

So I'm going back to Alembic...


----------



## MAW

The gentleman who posted the picture in the Alembic forum I referenced claims the guitar was made for him and that he wanted an eight string but Ron Wickersham felt they couldn't do it. Perhaps, contacting him would be an idea.


----------



## voxhumana

MAW said:


> The gentleman who posted the picture in the Alembic forum I referenced claims the guitar was made for him and that he wanted an eight string but Ron Wickersham felt they couldn't do it. Perhaps, contacting him would be an idea.


 
I'm working on this. The email address listed on his forum profile is no longer active, and a google search for the individual "John Robinson" has come up empty. We're both in Sydney so I even tried the white pages, but there are several hundred "J Robinson"s listed. 

When I get the time I'll print out a picture and stick it up in a few of Sydney's speciality guitar shops (Guitar Lounge, Jackson's Rare Guitars, Guitar Factory, etc). I'm also going to try the local music forums, and go back to the Alembic forum.

I'll admit being slightly annoyed at the fact that so far I've been able to source information from all over the world, but I appear to have hit a brick wall trying to find a guitar which is apparently in my own damn town.


----------



## NastyButler

Warms my heart to see that egotistical dickbag Gregory finally brought to justice.


----------



## Xaios

Not certain how I missed this thread! You're doing the community a great service, friend. 

I always knew Alex Gregory was a bit of a fibber when it comes to his relationship with seven string guitars, but I didn't realize how incredibly full of shit he really was.

Thus, I believe the portmanteau "Daechebro" should be his new unofficial title.


----------



## fuzzboy

Fuck Alex Gregory. He's a major douchebag with his head up his ass, and a sloppy wanker. I hope he reads this thread while googling himself and realizes what a piece of shit he is.

/rant


----------



## Double A

After reading this thread I am extremely happy fellow Mainer, Lenny Breau and Kirk Sand got the credit they deserves. Lenny was incredible and was also from my hometown where he is a legend.


----------



## voxhumana

More Alembic news:

I have to say, Alembic's level of cooperation and their response times are astonishing. I've never owned an Alembic, but you've got to love dealing with such a responsive company.

OK, I just got a second email, this time from Mica Thomas, who is the offspring (daughter?) of founder Ron Wickersham.

==================

*From*: "Mica Thomas" <email removed>
*Sent*: Wednesday, 23 February 2011 10:18 AM
*To*: <my email>
*Subject*: fw: Re: Alembic seven-string guitar (fwd)

Hi Manning,

Carol is of course right about her instrument being a 9 string bass; it's 
sort of a weird combo bass/guitar thing.

The 7-string guitar was custom ordered, it was not our concept, it was a 
custom order that we were glad to take the challenge of. However, for us 
it's simply the work we do, so keeping track of firsts and getting press 
for such things isn't really a priority.

I don't know the original owner's name, but I have a vague recollection he 
may be Australian. The initials JEN are inlaid on the front. I will keep 
you in mind when I run across details about this guitar and notify you of 
my findings. Keep in mind the records are all manual, and details may not 
show up for quite a while.

So for now you have a photo of the guitar, initials of the person that 
ordered it and a rough idea of the time, circa 1977.

Please feel free to write again if you have any other questions.

Best regards,
Mica


----------------------
Mica Wickersham Thomas
ALEMBIC, Inc.
3005 Wiljan Court
Santa Rosa, CA 95407
707-523-2611 phone
707-523-2935 fax

=================

So this confirms what we already know (except about the initials "JEN" which the forum post suggests refers to a girlfriend), and sadly doesn't actually add very much. Still, I'm grateful for their assistance.


----------



## DesertBurst

DISCOGRAPHY

this is so weird..
take a look at those discographies


Maestro Alex Gregory - Production, Guitars, Celloblaster, Electric Mandolin
Steve Weingart - Keyboards
Dave LaRue - Bass Guitar
Virgil Donati - Drums
Albert Lee - Country Guitar
Albert Wing - Sax, Flute, Clarinet



What the fuck??
Albert Lee? Virgil Donati?

Albert Lee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maestro Alex Gregory's Penta Orchestra - "Another Millennium?"
Maestro Alex Gregory - Bach On Steroids!

User:Lost Josephine Minor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia = Mr. 'Maestro' Alex Gregory

 him right now


----------



## voxhumana

Double A said:


> After reading this thread I am extremely happy fellow Mainer, Lenny Breau and Kirk Sand got the credit they deserves. Lenny was incredible and was also from my hometown where he is a legend.


 
Lenny is indeed a jazz guitar god, and it was a tragedy that he died so young.


----------



## voxhumana

DesertBurst said:


> User:Lost Josephine Minor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia = Mr. 'Maestro' Alex Gregory


 
Although we at Wikipedia have our suspicions, we have NOT proved this. 

However the fact that this user was able to produce a scan of a letter from the British passport office to Alex Gregory does suggest a very close association.


----------



## Double A

Here is another 7 that Lenny had made.


----------



## Stealth7

Someone should send this thread to the Maestro and see what he says about it!


----------



## technomancer

Love this thread 

As for potential negative rep, if there was one it fell off the bottom of the listing so we can't see who it was (the system only shows the last x reps received)


----------



## Durero

Pisschrist said:


> Someone should send this thread to the Maestro and see what he says about it!


I disagree. I think that for someone with such a desperate need for attention that he needs to make up self-aggrandizing stories the best reaction is to ignore him completely.


----------



## Cyanide_Anima

Wow. This is interesting! The 'maestro's pants are on fire. That is some interesting info you pulled up DesertBurst! \m/


----------



## Explorer

Pisschrist, you know how sometimes some clueless guy will shout out, "Hey, dude! You've got a 'Kick me!' sign on your back! That's great!"

It's not great when someone does that.

Don't be *that guy*.


----------



## voxhumana

Double A said:


> Here is another 7 that Lenny had made.


 
Oh crap - now I have three guitars to track down 

The only clue on the video clip is that it was made in Nashville, no mention of dates or the luthier.


----------



## Stealth7

Explorer said:


> Pisschrist, you know how sometimes some clueless guy will shout out, "Hey, dude! You've got a 'Kick me!' sign on your back! That's great!"
> 
> It's not great when someone does that.
> 
> Don't be *that guy*.



Well I think it would be nice to get his opinion on this situation and see what he has to say... But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Varcolac

Ah, the Douchebro Alex Gregory...

I knew that "Maestro" was a bullshit title, like "Nutritionist," but hadn't realised that he claims a PhD in classical composition from a university that's never had a music faculty. The revelations from this thread are astounding; I'd figured the quote-unquote Maestro wasn't the founder of the 7-string solid body, but I'd always thought it was a child of the 80s (along with mullets and spandex). That 1977 "Jen" Alembic is a good find.

While it's often amusing to find a wittily (or otherwise) edited Wiki article ("Emmure are a worthless band from Texas...") it's heartening to know there's people like voxhumana fighting the good fight against malicious editing. By the way, the name reminds me of "The Intro and the Outro" by the Bonzo Dog Doo-dah Band: "and a Sessions gorilla on vox humana..."


----------



## Double A

voxhumana said:


> Oh crap - now I have three guitars to track down
> 
> The only clue on the video clip is that it was made in Nashville, no mention of dates or the luthier.


I know one of Lenny's grandsons but I haven't seen him around town for a long time. I have a friend that might be able to track down Lenny's brother Denny. Actually you might have a lot of success contacting the man himself and I am sure he would be glad to provide some insight on when the guitars were made.

[EDIT] Here is Denny's website: http://www.dennybreau.com/home.htm


----------



## voxhumana

Double A said:


> I know one of Lenny's grandsons but I haven't seen him around town for a long time. I have a friend that might be able to track down Lenny's brother Denny. Actually you might have a lot of success contacting the man himself and I am sure he would be glad to provide some insight on when the guitars were made.
> 
> [EDIT] Here is Denny's website: Denny Breau: Home


 
Thanks for the lead. 

I'm a little bit nervous about this one - I'm always a bit hesitant to contact "lesser known siblings" - I've had the misfortune to cross paths with Rhett Hutchence (younger brother of Michael) on a couple of occasions and it can get ugly if Michael's name comes up.

Is Denny likely to be cool being asked such questions?


----------



## Double A

He should be, he is well liked here and is sort of a local celebrity of sorts and is also a fantastic guitar player. I guess it wouldn't hurt to put some feeler questions out there and explain what you are doing.


----------



## voxhumana

I FOUND THE FREAKIN' ALEMBIC!!!!!!

Holy crap, if there is an award for web-stalking I deserve it.

More details to come.


----------



## voxhumana

Double A said:


> He should be, he is well liked here and is sort of a local celebrity of sorts and is also a fantastic guitar player. I guess it wouldn't hurt to put some feeler questions out there and explain what you are doing.


 
Good advice - I shall follow it.

Thanks


----------



## troyguitar

voxhumana said:


> I FOUND THE FREAKIN' ALEMBIC!!!!!!
> 
> Holy crap, if there is an award for web-stalking I deserve it.
> 
> More details to come.





It's incredible how much information is out there if you look hard enough.


----------



## voxhumana

troyguitar said:


> It's incredible how much information is out there if you look hard enough.


 
Well I think the poor guy is in mild shock. He is, after all, a semi-retired gent in his early 60s.

Anyway after chasing about ten dead-end leads I finally stalked him to a Apple Users forum. The guitar is sitting in his spare bedroom in Sydney. I will get photos at first opportunity.

Interestingly, he says the serial number is #074, but Alembic seem to think that that SN# belongs to a regular 4 string bass. I have no explanation for this discrepancy as of yet.


----------



## coldm51

New topic for history class tomorrow


----------



## voxhumana

Out of courtesy I'll refrain from identifying the gent, but here is his most recent reply to me:

----------------------

manning,
will email or phone u soon.
it's not in that good a condition to take pix of.
haven't played it in years.

------------------

That ought to amuse everyone. This guy is sitting on a potentially historic instrument, and he had absolutely no idea


----------



## BigBaldIan

I wonder how long it will take before Mr. Gregory's site is altered with more fabrications. So now we have a solid body 7 as early as 1977 (how appropriate).


----------



## voxhumana

BigBaldIan said:


> I wonder how long it will take before Mr. Gregory's site is altered with more fabrications. So now we have a solid body 7 as early as 1977 (how appropriate).


 
Mr Gregory (or his evil-twin Lost Josephine Minor) just launched himself all over Wikipedia again. I've since cleaned it up, but it was mildly entertaining. (You can see it by going to Alex Gregory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and clicking the "view History" button.)

He seemed particularly upset by the references to the 1983 NAMM debut of the Kirk Sands 7-string. I don't know how to write "nuh-uh" with the enunciation of a distressed three-year-old, but that is how it transpired. 

Anyway, I am now informed that these earlier guitars were "in no way similar" to Gregory's advanced designs. And they were indeed different - his had a standard tremelo and paint. 

After that he launched an attack upon the team of editors who have been cleaning this stuff up. I actually got off fairly lightly, a fellow editor named Kudpung got quite a spraying.

All fun and games


----------



## Varcolac

voxhumana said:


> Mr Gregory (or his evil-twin Lost Josephine Minor) just launched himself all over Wikipedia again. I've since cleaned it up, but it was mildly entertaining. (You can see it by going to Alex Gregory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and clicking the "view History" button.)
> 
> He seemed particularly upset by the references to the 1983 NAMM debut of the Kirk Sands 7-string. I don't know how to write "nuh-uh" with the enunciation of a distressed three-year-old, but that is how it transpired.
> 
> Anyway, I am now informed that these earlier guitars were "in no way similar" to Gregory's advanced designs. And they were indeed different - his had a standard tremelo and paint.
> 
> After that he launched an attack upon the team of editors who have been cleaning this stuff up. I actually got off fairly lightly, a fellow editor named Kudpung got quite a spraying.
> 
> All fun and games



How come it still says he received a "formal education in classical composition" from an institution bereft of a music department?


----------



## voxhumana

Varcolac said:


> How come it still says he received a "formal education in classical composition" from an institution bereft of a music department?


 
Actually, the full quote reads "_According to his website_ he received his education (etc)." This is as non-commital as I could make it.

This "dancing around" is a quirk of Wikipedia policy which forbids "original research". As I contacted the university myself (and got an email reply from their admissions department) this counts as "original research" and I am unable to use this information to completely remove the statement.

If I can find a independent source that lays out the history of the university in a "verifiable" format then I can remove the statement altogether. I am still looking for such a reference.

Yeah, I know, weird. It's necessary however, because if people were allowed to put stuff in/remove stuff based on claims of "I got an email about it" then Wikipedia would descend into chaos.


----------



## BigBaldIan

voxhumana said:


> Actually, the full quote reads "_According to his website_ he received his education (etc)." This is as non-commital as I could make it.
> 
> This "dancing around" is a quirk of Wikipedia policy which forbids "original research". As I contacted the university myself (and got an email reply from their admissions department) this counts as "original research" and I am unable to use this information to completely remove the statement.
> 
> If I can find a independent source that lays out the history of the university in a "verifiable" format then I can remove the statement altogether. I am still looking for such a reference.
> 
> Yeah, I know, weird. It's necessary however, because if people were allowed to put stuff in/remove stuff based on claims of "I got an email about it" then Wikipedia would descend into chaos.


 
Nothing about a music department or faculty mentioned here:

History

Ok, let's look at Arts and Humanities then:

http://www.unimi.it/ENG/university/31947.htm

Nope nothing there.


----------



## voxhumana

BigBaldIan said:


> Nothing about a music department or faculty mentioned here:
> 
> History
> 
> Ok, let's look at Arts and Humanities then:
> 
> Arts and Humanities
> 
> Nope nothing there.


 
Holy crap! How did I miss that?

Huge thanks - the article has been revised accordingly.


----------



## BigBaldIan

voxhumana said:


> Holy crap! How did I miss that?


 
You were concentrating on tracking the Alembic down....<hint hint, get out jail free card>


----------



## voxhumana

BigBaldIan said:


> You were concentrating on tracking the Alembic down....<hint hint, get out jail free card>


 
LOL, I'll take it (totally don't deserve it, but I'll take it  )


----------



## BucketheadRules

voxhumana said:


> LOL, I'll take it (totally don't deserve it, but I'll take it  )



I like your custom user title sir.


----------



## voxhumana

BucketheadRules said:


> I like your custom user title sir.


 
LOL, prior to now I was only interested in getting the seven-string guitar story accurate. 

However now that the guy has dared to come onto Wikipedia throwing punches (so to speak), he will live to regret making enemies out of a group of computer nerds who are happy to dissect and lay bare every bogus claim he has ever made.

Hence don't be surprised when I announce the "Truth about the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory" website. 

(With full credit to whoever dubbed him "Douchebag" - at this precise moment I forget who it was - apologies)

{EDIT} - It was Explorer who dubbed him thusly.


----------



## synrgy

I love this thread, and I love this community.


----------



## Jontain

Very interesting read, good luck with the rest of the investigation. It is great to see a bit of history into the 7

However I can help but feel sorry for people such as this Alex Gregory, must be hard having to fulfil such a big ego with lies. Cant say i really understand people who spend their lives worrying about someones preception of them, espcially when you might never cross paths with that someone again.


Keep up the good work


----------



## voxhumana

synrgy said:


> I love this thread, and I love this community.


 
Hey, I just read this mindblowingly awesome piece of mindblowing awesomeness: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/83812-music.html

 (That's me shouting about it to the world).

That's two years old now - well overdue for a repost IMHO.


----------



## metalheadblues

voxhumana said:


> Hey, I just read this mindblowingly awesome piece of mindblowing awesomeness: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/83812-music.html
> 
> (That's me shouting about it to the world).
> 
> That's two years old now - well overdue for a repost IMHO.


  AMAZING READ
so glad joined this website..


----------



## BucketheadRules

The only way I know how to respond to that post...


----------



## Loomer

This thread is chock-full of pure, undistilled win.


----------



## voxhumana

Double A said:


> Here is another 7 that Lenny had made.


 
Re this guitar - I've had a response from Emily Hughes (Lenny's daughter and director of the documentary this clip is from).

She doesn't know the exact details, but has assured me she will ask those who might know and get back to me.

I haven't yet contacted his brother Denny yet, I'm waiting to see where this lead goes first.


----------



## Explorer

Oh, my god, this just keeps getting better and better.

I was reading one of the history pages, and then the discussion pages... where a charge was made about how it seemed that the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory would have claims questioned online, and then a champion would emerge who would champion the Douchebag's cause... and then disappear after the discussion.

And then there was a link which revealed this user, and the curious history of a huge Douchebag fan:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/search.php?do=finduser&u=18881

A few innocuous posts, similar to when spammers try to slip under the radar, and then the serious Douchebag Defense machine kicks in. *laugh*

I think I'm gonna take a look at SS.org history and do a search on the Douchebag, and see if any similar patterns emerge for other users. It would be interesting if someone had used multiple accounts to talk about the DMAG and thereby violated the TOS, wouldn't it? *laugh*

Edit: Hey, like this guy!

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/search.php?do=finduser&u=19099

And in the same time period, too! What are the odds of two hardcore Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory fans registering so close together, and then leaving the forum within the same time period as well? Amazing coincidences abound! *laugh*

I hope a mod tells me that it quacks like a duck....

Oh... and for the search engines, let me just say... Pentasystem and Celloblaster. *laugh*

----

Quick edit: I just read a little further on this page, and found this gem:

"*Based on the several minutes I will never get back I spent looking at his website,* I find the general consistency between that site and this article (as well as the 7-string guitar) is too strong to be coincidental (although I admit the possibility of a fan simply copying the website content). *The "Maestro" stuff, for instance, is just nonsense."*

"The several minutes I will never get back..." That's hilarious! *laugh*

----

I also had no idea that his filing for a US patent was in 1990, a year after the Universe came out, no?


----------



## voxhumana

Explorer said:


> Oh, my god, this just keeps getting better and better.
> 
> ----
> 
> Quick edit: I just read a little further on this page, and found this gem:
> 
> "*Based on the several minutes I will never get back I spent looking at his website,* I find the general consistency between that site and this article (as well as the 7-string guitar) is too strong to be coincidental (although I admit the possibility of a fan simply copying the website content). *The "Maestro" stuff, for instance, is just nonsense."*
> 
> "The several minutes I will never get back..." That's hilarious! *laugh*


 
That was Eusebeus - he's an *ultra* sharp guy. Multi-lingual classical pianist, lives in Spain. I think he's English (but I could be wrong).



Explorer said:


> I think I'm gonna take a look at SS.org history and do a search on the Douchebag, and see if any similar patterns emerge for other users. It would be interesting if someone had used multiple accounts to talk about the DMAG and thereby violated the TOS, wouldn't it? *laugh*


 
Judging by the number of duplicate accounts he maintains at Wikipedia (we call them "sockpuppets"), I would expect you'd find the same here.


----------



## Explorer

Well, those two users I posted above appear to be sockpuppets... or douchebag puppets, I suppose. *laugh*

Although it will be deserved if those are in fact the same person and that the IP responsible gets banned... I feel badly for *hoping* that it's the same person. *laugh*

To be fair, though, I do feel pretty strongly about when someone attempts to manipulate the truth, or even lies outright.

----

I normally abhor just posting a graphic, but the following so perfectly sums up my feelings when I read this topic from beginning to end...







*laugh*


----------



## voxhumana

Explorer said:


> Well, those two users I posted above appear to be sockpuppets... or douchebag puppets, I suppose. *laugh*
> 
> Although it will be deserved if those are in fact the same person and that the IP responsible gets banned... I feel badly for *hoping* that it's the same person. *laugh*
> 
> To be fair, though, I do feel pretty strongly about when someone attempts to manipulate the truth, or even to outright lie....


 
Well we had a new one turn up today at Wikipedia claiming to be "Martin Stillion, the executive producer" of one of Gregory's records. 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alex_Gregory

Apart from not appearing to know what an "executive producer" even does (for reference, ExecProd's are responsible for getting the funding, but are not involved in the creative aspects), he elected to lambast me as on the basis that "Gregory never claimed to have invented the seven-string guitar". 

Now that was a new twist on this saga, so I took pleasure in pointing him to the page on DMAG's website where it is thusly written "_"The absolute truth remains that Maestro Alex Gregory is the true sole inventor of the 7 String Electric Guitar."_
Chapter 1: BACKGROUND TO THE INVENTION OF THE 7 STRING ELECT, second paragraph.


----------



## troyguitar

voxhumana said:


> Well we had a new one turn up today at Wikipedia claiming to be "Martin Stillion, the executive producer" of one of Gregory's records.
> Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alex Gregory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Apart from not appearing to know what an "executive producer" even does (for reference, ExecProd's are responsible for getting the funding, but are not involved in the creative aspects), he elected to lambast me as on the basis that "Gregory never claimed to have invented the seven-string guitar".
> 
> Now that was a new twist on this saga, so I took pleasure in pointing him to the page on DMAG's website where it is thusly written "_"The absolute truth remains that Maestro Alex Gregory is the true sole inventor of the 7 String Electric Guitar."_
> Chapter 1: BACKGROUND TO THE INVENTION OF THE 7 STRING ELECT, second paragraph.



Ah, but "the seven-string guitar" and "the 7 String Electric Guitar" are very different!


----------



## Miek

Explorer said:


> Well, those two users I posted above appear to be sockpuppets... or douchebag puppets, I suppose. *laugh*



I recommend douchepuppet.


----------



## Explorer

*sigh*

*laugh*

Isn't that one of the main claims inserted into Wikipedia regarding the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory as well? 

Now, what would be *truly* fearful is if Mr. Stillion is a sock puppet controlled by the same person as the other two Gregory puppets... and truly believes that Gregory has never advanced that claim. 

I've seen paper tigers reverse direction and claim that certain assertions were never made, *immediately* after having made them. I find people like that to be frightening, as either they assume that I'm completely imbecilic, *OR* they believe what they're claiming, that they didn't say what they have just said. 

I've considered writing articles for Wikipedia, but I always feel that my interests are so narrow that they would only amount to 'cruft....


----------



## BigBaldIan

Well, done a little more digging and we now have "Variations on a Classical Education" by Alex Gregory.

Link is here:

Maestro Alex Gregory | Paganini's Last Stand | CD Baby

The Album Notes, which appear to be almost whole cloth copy-paste from Alex's site has the following curious difference:

"He is an extensively trained classical musician (Conservatory of Milan - composition and violin)."

So looking at this critically we have the following options:

Mr. Gregory for whatever reason misstated where he obtained his qualifications. If so why?

The reviewer actually realised the UoM does not have a music faculty and is trying feverishly to retcon the situation. For what purpose?

I don't know about you folks, but my bullshit detectors just went into the red.


----------



## WickedSymphony

BigBaldIan said:


> I don't know about you folks, but my bullshit detectors just went into the red.



Just now?


----------



## Varcolac

The closest things the University of Milan offers to a bona fide music course are a masters in musicology and a bachelors in music informatics. As music informatics is the science of mp3s and the like, it wouldn't have been possible for him to even attempt this degree before the 21st century. Musicology does involve elements of composition, but to call a musicology degree a classical composition one is to totally misrepresent it. 

Following Alex Gregory's logic, I have a masters in economics. I don't. I have a masters in history, but I totally took a half-module course on the economic history of Korea, so I'm a fully qualified economist.


----------



## BigBaldIan

WickedSymphony said:


> Just now?


 
I have very sensitive bullshit detectors, when I come across manure-spreading on that sort of level, they need to be recalibrated.

Just read the exec producer's comments. There's some epic cognitive dissonance going on and no matter how you slice it, his claims are without merit.

Gregory invented the 7-string electric guitar - false, Gretsch and Epiphone got there first.
Gregory invented the 7-string solid body electric guitar - false, Alembic got there first.
Gregory invented the 7-string solid-body guitar with a high A - false, Kirk Sand got there first. Remember by Gregory/Stillion's own admission that all Gregory is laying claim to is this specific variant, which is somehow intrinsically a different instrument from the low B type.

Remember by this stage we are getting very, very far removed from the original grandiose statement.

Ask any musician to define what an X string guitar is, and I predict with almost absolute certainty they will respond, "A guitar with X strings." Whether tuned E to A or B to E is a complete irrelevency.

Just to hammer things home:

This is a guitar:







So is this:






The argument that tuning makes it a completely different instrument is as watertight as the Titanic.


----------



## voxhumana

Varcolac said:


> Following Alex Gregory's logic, I have a masters in economics. I don't. I have a masters in history, but I totally took a half-module course on the economic history of Korea, so I'm a fully qualified economist.


 
I suspect Mr Gregory's logic is more analogous to: "I once had lunch in a cafe near a medical school, therefore I am a thoracic surgeon."


----------



## BigBaldIan

Ok, I'm going to switch to decaf for a bit, I'm getting a bit pitbullish!

Found a reference to Martin Stillion on the emando site, it looks like they are two seperate individuals after all. 

http://www.emando.com/PDFs/Alex_Gregory_press_release.pdf


----------



## Varcolac

voxhumana said:


> I suspect Mr Gregory's logic is more analogous to: "I once had lunch in a cafe near a medical school, therefore I am a thoracic surgeon."



Sweet. In that case, based on the extent of my qualifications, I invented modern economics and wrote _The Wealth of Nations_.

I suspect Wikipedia won't have quite as hard a time disproving that claim, but I'm not claiming to have invented the whole field! I'm talking about my 2,000 word essay; "Modern Economics and the Tonghak Rebellion." You're just taking things out of context if you think I claimed to have written Adam Smith's book: I just wrote the book's title. In a footnote. Where I cited it. I still totally invented (okay, okay, contributed to) that tiny corner of economics, and totally wrote a few thousand words on it. Even if the only people to read it were my tutor and a couple of friends. But it still counts! Put me on wikipedia!

Thinking like that broke my brain. I hope you're happy.


----------



## Scriff1985

I just came here to say this is possibly the greatest thread ever to grace the internet. Thank you


----------



## Loomer

"I need 15 cc's of whatchamacallit! Stat! What do you mean?! NO I AM FULLY QUALIFIED FOR THIS NOW SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH"

EDIT: This was for the "Thoracic Surgeon" comment


----------



## voxhumana

Loomer said:


> "I need 15 cc's of whatchamacallit! Stat! What do you mean?! NO I AM FULLY QUALIFIED FOR THIS NOW SHUT YOUR FILTHY MOUTH"
> 
> EDIT: This was for the "Thoracic Surgeon" comment


 
Yes folks, it's the "Let's all pretend to be Alex Gregory" thread. Here's my attempt.

- I'm good friends with Eddie Van Halen. Seriously. We've spent time together. It was just me and Eddie in a room. The other members of Van Halen were there too. 

(...There might have also been 3000 other ticket holders there, I can't remember...)


----------



## Explorer

Is Martin Stillion of emando the same guy who wrote voxhumana? The emando Stillion also posts on the Mandolin Cafe as mrmando.

Since emando.com is devoted to electric mandolin, and I doubt that the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory would be able to make any claims of originaility for developing a five-course electric instrument in fifths without being challenged there. Tiny Moore of the Texas Playboys developed the five-string electric years before Gregory started his nonsense. 

I can't imagine that particular Martin Stilion rushing to defend the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory or his claims of originality (including the Pentasystem). 

Is it possible that someone is looking at the emando website and grabbing Stillion's name in order to create some sort of legitimacy? If I were in your position, I'd probably drop the Wikipedia "Stillion" an email asking if he is the same person, as well as contacting the Martin Stillion at [email protected] I can see how emando would re-release "Jokes" as an interesting and relevant CD relating to electric mandolin, but I doubt they'd be committed to preserving Gregory's claims.


----------



## Explorer

Incidentally, I was just doing some quick lookups, and found that searching on "wikipedia pentasystem" found this particular thread, as well as a bunch of others, decrying the Douchebag Maestro Alexander Gregory and his claims. A lot of people are linking to this particular thread.

Apparently the Douchbag Maestro Alexander Gregory has gained a lot of notice over the years for his claims regarding the seven-string gutiar and the Pentasystem, but the work of voxhumana and his/her collegues over at Wikipedia in sorting those claims, and exposing the lies behind quite a few of them, is possibly the first time all of this was brought to light at one time and in one location.


----------



## BigBaldIan

I think the crux of the matter rests on semantics, if we use the legal reasonable person test. Then a reasonable person reading the statement below would naturally infer, that Gregory single-handedly invented the entire family of solid-body 7-string electric guitars:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]_ "The absolute truth remains that Maestro Alex Gregory is the true sole inventor of the 7 String Electric Guitar, or Rock N Roll 7 String Guitar"

_[/FONT]The statement above makes no caveat of tuning differences, it is a blanket all encompassing statement. By discovery of prior builders (listed in this thread in detail) who have a variety of features listed, the above statement has been proven to be at best inaccurate and at worst fraudulent.

A more accurate statement would be:

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]_"The absolute truth remains that Maestro Alex Gregory is the true sole inventor of a 2 octave 7 String Electric Guitar, tuned E to A with fulcrum tremolo system and 3 single-coil pickups; a natural evolution of the classic Fender Stratocaster design."
_[/FONT]
However that does not sound as punchy or attention grabbing now does it? By the way, if having a Patent automatically means you can lay claim to inventing something, then I'd expect some almighty punch-ups between DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan, EMG et al.


----------



## voxhumana

BigBaldIan said:


> By the way, if having a Patent automatically means you can lay claim to inventing something, then I'd expect some almighty punch-ups between DiMarzio, Seymour Duncan, EMG et al.


 

For the record, I am the TRUE SOLE INVENTOR of the Gibson L6S with Seymour Duncan hot rails bridge pickup, recycled telecaster neck pickup, a Kahler tremelo, and duct tape holding the back cover plate on. Thank you - please form an orderly line for autographs.

To me an "invention" has to have something unique or unexpected about it. Even Ned Steinberger regarded himself as a "designer" or an "innovator", not an "inventor". (Although IMO the 'trans-trem' rightly qualifies as an invention, as to my knowledge nothing like it had ever existed before)

The Chapman Stick also fits that bill for me.


----------



## Spondus

Fender "Prototype" Alex Gregory 7 String Stratocaster on eBay (end time 24-Mar-11 11:02:29 GMT)

If anyone cares one of his guitars is on ebay. After reading his site, his douche-nozzeldom becomes obvious.


----------



## voxhumana

Spondus said:


> Fender "Prototype" Alex Gregory 7 String Stratocaster on eBay (end time 24-Mar-11 11:02:29 GMT)
> 
> If anyone cares on of his guitars is on ebay. After reading his site, his douche-nozzeldom becomes obvious.


 
The Ebay description says "The above instrument ... has been featured in several publications inc the "Andre Duchossoir" Fender Stratocaster book."

Yeah, it got "featured" in one sentence on page 34 of Duchossoir's book.
​


----------



## Hemi-Powered Drone

Clearly it is very distinct from anything before it.It has "7" strings, not 7 strings. :LOL:


----------



## Loomer

voxhumana said:


> . Even Ned Steinberger regarded himself as a "designer" or an "innovator", not an "inventor". (Although IMO the 'trans-trem' rightly qualifies as an invention, as to my knowledge nothing like it had ever existed before)



Well, Ned Steinberger doesn't have to prove he's a genius, as that fact is as readily apparent as anything


----------



## BucketheadRules

Spondus said:


> Fender "Prototype" Alex Gregory 7 String Stratocaster on eBay (end time 24-Mar-11 11:02:29 GMT)
> 
> If anyone cares one of his guitars is on ebay. After reading his site, his douche-nozzeldom becomes obvious.



But it's not the first 7-string, and barely anyone has ever heard of the guy, so why is it £9,499?


----------



## BigBaldIan

Spondus said:


> Fender "Prototype" Alex Gregory 7 String Stratocaster on eBay (end time 24-Mar-11 11:02:29 GMT)
> 
> If anyone cares one of his guitars is on ebay. After reading his site, his douche-nozzeldom becomes obvious.



What's even more amazing is that the seller has two available!


----------



## BucketheadRules

BigBaldIan said:


> What's even more amazing is that the seller has two available!



Well, it's Music Ground isn't it?

They probably stole them off Gregory himself.

EDIT: Although it is quite possible that they had them knocked up in China.


----------



## Explorer

Being that the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory tried to sell the masters and all rights associated with "Jokes" about 5 years ago for $15k total, it would seem possible that DMAG was the source of the instruments. 

I like that the auction/sale, according to the auction description, is for 2 of the 3 total ever built. If they're really great, I wonder why the owner is getting (or got) rid of them. I tend to keep the instruments which are working for me. If the Fenders were truly ahead of their time, and surpassed the construction of the Ibanez line which preceded the patenting of this line... why sell the Fenders?

In my imaginings, I can see some fairly large chickens coming home to roost, embodying the falsehoods which have been advanced in place of the true history of the seven-string gutiar. If the truth becomes more and more known, and the smokescreen dissipates, then these instruments will have very little value other than as a novelty. I guess the decision was made to sell while the selling was still good. 

The history video relied upon in the auction is, of course, the one the DMAG himself posted on Youtube. That means that it is filled with the same falsehoods as Gregory's site.

One more thing: Why worry about Chinese guitars when this thread contains a different source? Yes, I've been holding this link back, but now it's time to unveil the result of two douchebags passing in the night...

Alex Gregory Guitars

That's right. One can't use the word "douchebag" without an eventual appearance by... Ed Roman himself. 

It's not worth the investment of my time, but I wonder what would happen if someone contacted the seller (Musicgoround, which is an entity outside of Gregory) through eBay, presented what has developed so far regarding all the claims in that video being given as the history of seven-string guitar, and let the seller know that the claims being given in the link in their item description were untrue....


----------



## BucketheadRules

He's responsible for this.






I want him shot. Now.


----------



## BigBaldIan

Oh dear it appears the good Maestro has been struck from the records of wikipedia for good. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maestro_Alex_Gregory


----------



## Explorer

Wow.

Well, that will make it harder for him to make claims, won't it? The documentation for the examples on Wikipedia will make it harder for the Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory to make claims based purely on his own writings, whether his alternate history of the seven-string guitar, or his claim of having invented the Pentasystem. 

I might take some time at some point to add to the history of full fifths and of the electric mandolin. There's enough evidence there to nail down how full fifths has been used on five-course instruments for quite a while. 

And, even though I'm not a fan of Robert Fripp and his broken fifths tuning, I have to look to see what easily documentable facts there are of the tuning, of which the Pentasystem is a small part which was patented years after broken fifths tuning's initial appearance. I know that a lot of us were using variants of full fifths back in the '80s. It would be interesting to see what the Pentasystem patent actually claims, and if Pen 5 Guitars (which disappeared soon after buying the system from DMAG) wound up buying something which was basically worthless....


----------



## BigBaldIan

Getting back to the history of the solidbody 7 for a minute. Manning did you have any further luck with the Jen Alembic? In addition ShadyDavey did mention on page 1 of the thread, that Uli Jon Roth was using 7 string Sky guitars in the mid-eighties. You might want to try the UJR site to see what you can dig up. As Gregory's other claim was for the "rock and roll 7 string", if the Sky guitar was being used before 1987 it would be the final nail in the coffin. At this point though, it almost seems like overkill.


----------



## Loomer

I've noticed another thing; 

In the main article for 7-string guitars, Five Finger Death Punch are mentioned as great proponents and users of them. I was under the impression that the band only use sixers? 

As much as I despise the band and that pillock leadguitarist of theirs, surely this must go under "objective error"?


----------



## Mindcrime1204

they prolly tune to B standard or somethin with their 6s?


----------



## Loomer

Mindcrime1204 said:


> they prolly tune to B standard or somethin with their 6s?



Maybe, according to what tabs I could find, they are in Drop B. 
From Zoltan Bathory's wiki:

"Zoltan is known for his heavy string gauge of 13.-64. made by Dunlop."

Ha. Ha. Ha...


----------



## Explorer

,


Loomer said:


> I've noticed another thing;
> 
> In the main article for 7-string guitars, Five Finger Death Punch are mentioned as great proponents and users of them. I was under the impression that the band only use sixers?



There have been threads on SS.org discussing FFDP's use of sevens over the past few years, including at least one video.


----------



## Loomer

Explorer said:


> ,
> 
> There have been threads on SS.org discussing FFDP's use of sevens over the past few years, including at least one video.



Ok, I must have missed those.


----------



## Martin Stillion

voxhumana said:


> Well we had a new one turn up today at Wikipedia claiming to be "Martin Stillion, the executive producer" of one of Gregory's records.


That would be me.



> Apart from not appearing to know what an "executive producer" even does (for reference, ExecProd's are responsible for getting the funding, but are not involved in the creative aspects)


I am the executive producer of 13 Jokes because I put up the money to have some copies made. I never professed to have been involved in the creative aspects of the album. I'm not sure what you think you have to gain by misrepresenting me here. 

If anyone has questions for me I'll endeavor to answer them on this thread.


----------



## Martin Stillion

BigBaldIan said:


> I think the crux of the matter rests on semantics, if we use the legal reasonable person test. Then a reasonable person reading the statement below would naturally infer, that Gregory single-handedly invented the entire family of solid-body 7-string electric guitars:
> 
> "The absolute truth remains that Maestro Alex Gregory is the true sole inventor of the 7 String Electric Guitar, or Rock N Roll 7 String Guitar"
> 
> The statement above makes no caveat of tuning differences, it is a blanket all encompassing statement. By discovery of prior builders (listed in this thread in detail) who have a variety of features listed, the above statement has been proven to be at best inaccurate and at worst fraudulent.



False. A reasonable person would have read Gregory's statement in its original context, as part of a 5-paragraph essay which acknowledges the prior existence of other 7-string guitar designs. The reasonable person would then have to conclude that, when taken in context, the statement cannot logically be considered "a blanket all encompassing statement."

This is not to say that the statement and the essay it came from are not problematic. The statement is hyperbolic, and is easily mistaken for a categorical statement even though it cannot logically be one; the essay mentions prior 7-string guitars but in a misleading, minimizing way. 



> A more accurate statement would be:
> 
> "The absolute truth remains that Maestro Alex Gregory is the true sole inventor of a 2 octave 7 String Electric Guitar, tuned E to A with fulcrum tremolo system and 3 single-coil pickups; a natural evolution of the classic Fender Stratocaster design."


Quite so. Also, a less generic product name than "7 String Electric Guitar" might have helped.


----------



## BigBaldIan

Martin Stillion said:


> False. A reasonable person would have read Gregory's statement in its original context, as part of a 5-paragraph essay which acknowledges the prior existence of other 7-string guitar designs. The reasonable person would then have to conclude that, when taken in context, the statement cannot logically be considered "a blanket all encompassing statement."


 
Perhaps I should have clarified in that post, I apologise. My argument was based as a result of Gregory's use of said statement without its proper context, which has appeared on websites and forums (even in the contentious wikipedia article if memory serves). I'm sure you can agree that such an assertion, when viewed on its own merits without any clarification, would lead an observer to possibly make false assumptions.

Edit: I notice that on the emando site your blurb reads "a patent holder for a 7-string electric guitar design", which is a much more accurate statement.


----------



## Martin Stillion

BigBaldIan said:


> I'm sure you can agree that such an assertion, when viewed on its own merits without any clarification, would lead an observer to possibly make false assumptions.


Yes, I can agree with that. Which is why it is misleading to refer to the assertion without referring to its context. Again, the assertion is still problematic, even in context. But to remove it from that context, so as to make it appear even _more _problematic and to invite those false inferences ... that is not something a neutral, objective observer would or should do. 


BigBaldIan said:


> Edit: I notice that on the emando site your blurb reads "a patent holder for a 7-string electric guitar design", which is a much more accurate statement.


Right. Following the Wikipedia controversy I tried to ensure that my own Web copy stuck strictly to facts.


----------



## AwakenNoMore

i like bacon


----------



## BigBaldIan

Martin Stillion said:


> Yes, I can agree with that. Which is why it is misleading to refer to the assertion without referring to its context. Again, the assertion is still problematic, even in context. But to remove it from that context, so as to make it appear even _more _problematic and to invite those false inferences ... that is not something a neutral, objective observer would or should do.


 
It is Gregory himself I remind you, that chose to post that snippet across the web without the benefit of the context on his site. We (posters on this thread amongst others) have reacted to the snippet at face-value, as we have found it on those sites. We have made no false inferences as we have specialist knowledge on the topic. Now imagine if someone without that specialist knowledge were to read that statement, without knowing the full history.

If I were to post what I wrote on say Gregory's own forum, where I had the benefit of looking at his entire biography, then what you have mentioned is fair criticism. However Gregory himself, by posting that statement out of context on other sites/forums and others copying it whole cloth, have invited those false inferences and indeed the dissection of his claims as a result

tl:dr Gregory chose and used said statement out of context, the finger of blame should point to him for any false assumptions people may make. Certainly not to those exposing it for what it is.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Edit: All I can say Martin, is you must be one heck of a night-owl or early bird. According to my settings your first post was at 11:04, which must make it 03:04 in Seattle time!

I'd be grateful if you would take the time to clarify the following, or is it more hyperbole on Gregory's part?

1) Gregory states that he received formal training at the University of Milan. Investigations have shown that this University has never had a faculty of music, nor a school of music attached to any other faculty. Is there any evidence for his formal classical education?

2) In another review http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/alexgregory2# a writer states that he went to the Conservatory of Milan. However if this is the case, why is he not amongst the famous alumni (after all someone who was bestowed the title of Maestro by HM QE2 must be a notable figure)?

3) If he indeed went to the Conservatory and not the University, why is it that his official biography and press releases make no mention of this?


----------



## Explorer

Martin, BigBaldIan raises some big questions, but you seem to be focused on a few minor points. This thread is a testament to what seemed to be a relatively large campaign of self promotion, one which was ultimately ruled to be so without merit that Wikipedia salted the earth so that no such claims regarding Alex Gregory could again be promoted on their website. 

I apologize if this next part isn't accurate, but you're coming across as wanting the rest of us to be held to some contextual standard... while skipping over the parts of this thread which provide that context. Alex Gregory was caught in several out and out baldface lies. It seems that his credibility has been destroyed on a number of claims.

With that context, to expect those who knew about the true history of the seven string guitar to now parse out which small bits of Alex Gregory's story which might actually true is a waste of effort, and misplaced in my opinion. We have no responsibility to Gregory to restore the rest of his name, because it was his choice to put out lies. He (or whoever posted Gregory's claims on Wikipedia, which I'll research when I have a moment) didn't expect to be caught out, but he/they were. And, as a consequence, the falsehoods were what affected his/their reputation. 

Anyway, BigBaldIan put up some fairly pointed and reasonable questions, and you can see what the issues are in that context. I'm interested in your response to those questions.

I'll look into the history of the History article, and see who it was that got the boot on Wikipedia.

----

Incidentally, I wonder... do you have any problems with the ultimate outcome of the Wikipedia article revision? If so, have you opened a discussion with the Wikipedia staff? I'd be interested in a link to the discussion, if you have.

Cheers!


----------



## Explorer

Just had a moment to look it up. The user posted all of the DMAG's claims on Wikipedia was Lost Josephine Minor. Earlier in this thread, someone raised the reasonable suspicion that Lost Josephine Minor was an alias invented by DMAG to add claims of his noteworthiness to Wikipedia. No firm proof was forthcoming, but the close association between the online persona of LJM and the DMAG was verified through LJM being able to supply a letter from the Passport Office which stated that the DMAG had had the word "Maestro" added to his passport.

For whatever reason, that was supposed to indicate that the Passport Office had accepted his adding that word at his request, and therefore Alex Gregory had received a Royal Title from the Crown. *laugh* Pretty typical fare for this story, of course, and indicative of why there are more profitable ways of spending one's time than trying to winnow out the few grains of truth from the voluminous chaff of falsehood and self aggrandisement which were contributed by the DMAG and LJM.

----

I like this text from the Wikipedia user Lost Josephine Minor, upon all the facts being discovered and all unfactual assertions being removed:



> ...Wow, was I in for a shocker. It turns out that many of even established editors on Wikipedia are blatently inaccurate and uninterested in presenting truthful articles. I have spent many many hours pouring over wikipedia guidelines and etiquette pages trying to make sure that I am doing things properly. But, what I am finding is that many, if not most, of the highly experienced users of Wikipedia show very little regard for the guidelines themselves, particularly with regard to "BITECLUB" and "AGF" which I just read about.


 
*laugh*

I had asked if you had any objections to the Wikipedia article, and to post a link if so.

*I just realized, though, that you're bringing a lot of these points to those who reacted to the situation... instead of the instigator of the situation. I would like to think that you were evenhanded about the matter, which raises my next question:*

*How did Alex Gregory react when you asked him the same kinds of questions about the other side of the matter? *

*I'd be more interested in reading that part first, as that was what caused this whole discussion and situation in the first place. Otherwise, it sounds like your concern is misplaced.*


----------



## Martin Stillion

I have no further information about Alex's education. I did not write his biographies and am not responsible for what they say. I've spoken with Alex once or twice about the Wikipedia controversy, but I don't recall that the subject of his education came up. 

I haven't read this whole thread; the history of the 7-string guitar is not a matter of strong personal interest to me. As long as I've known Alex, I've understood that his patent, and therefore his claim about being an inventor, applied to a specific design of a 7-string guitar and not to the entire category of instruments. I can't speak to the reasons other people don't understand this. It's never caused me a moment's concern or confusion. 

I found this thread because it contains a few posts about me, with people speculating that I might be Alex in disguise, misrepresenting Wikipedia exchanges with me, etc. I thought it might be worthwhile to let you know I'm a real person. 

The time of day when I choose to read and/or post on this board is nobody's concern but my own. 

I did attempt to make a couple of edits to the Wikipedia page, but as far as I know it was Alex himself who posted it originally.

By the time the Wikipedia thing wrapped up, the editors were no longer even trying to distinguish babies from bathwater. Factual, verifiable information (Alex's mention in a _Guitar World _article, for example) was getting dismissed along with the more questionable claims. So no, I wouldn't say I was satisfied with the way the controversy was handled.


----------



## Bigfan

How does putting another string on a Stratocaster warrant a patent anyway?


----------



## Explorer

Martin Stillion said:


> I haven't read this whole thread; the history of the 7-string guitar is not a matter of strong personal interest to me. *As long as I've known Alex, I've understood that his patent, and therefore his claim about being an inventor, applied to a specific design of a 7-string guitar and not to the entire category of instruments. I can't speak to the reasons other people don't understand this. It's never caused me a moment's concern or confusion. *
> 
> I found this thread because it contains a few posts about me, with people speculating that I might be Alex in disguise, misrepresenting Wikipedia exchanges with me, etc. I thought it might be worthwhile to let you know I'm a real person.
> 
> The time of day when I choose to read and/or post on this board is nobody's concern but my own.
> 
> I did attempt to make a couple of edits to the Wikipedia page, but as far as I know it was Alex himself who posted it originally.
> 
> By the time the Wikipedia thing wrapped up, the editors were no longer even trying to distinguish babies from bathwater. *Factual, verifiable information (Alex's mention in a Guitar World article, for example) was getting dismissed along with the more questionable claims.* So no, I wouldn't say I was satisfied with the way the controversy was handled.


 
You yourself acknowledged the lack of context in which Alex Gregory engaged. It's surprising you forgot about that already, but that's your explanation for the confusion, propagated by Alex Gregory himself.

The _Guitar World_ article was dealt with in this thread. He was actually only in a footnote to the article, with said footnote entitled "Where Are They Now?," in an obvious nod to Spinal Tap. 

Nit picking without knowing the facts, and insisting that others be held to a different standard than oneself, is an odd and interesting thing.

----

Anyway, thanks for clarifying the identity question. Being as Alex Gregory was already under reasonable suspicion of using a sock puppet on Wikipedia, any suspicion that you also were a sock puppet is more a reflection on Alex Gregory's character and integrity than on your own. I wouldn't take it too personally, and we'll not make that mistake again.

I'm also hopeful that you'll further differentiate yourself from Gregory and sock puppets by not repeating the actions of said individual(s). That behaviour is what creates/created the suspicion, which would seem reasonable given the rest of the context.

Cheers!


----------



## Martin Stillion

Bigfan said:


> How does putting another string on a Stratocaster warrant a patent anyway?


I guess you'd have to ask the Patent Office.


----------



## Martin Stillion

Explorer said:


> You yourself acknowledged the lack of context in which Alex Gregory engaged. It's surprising you forgot about that already, but that's your explanation for the confusion, propagated by Alex Gregory himself.


I haven't personally seen any posts made by Alex to this forum or any other where the claim is made out of context. I guess I'll have to take your word for it.


> The _Guitar World_ article was dealt with in this thread. He was actually only in a footnote to the article, with said footnote entitled "Where Are They Now?," in an obvious nod to Spinal Tap.


That is voxhumana's impression of the Web version of the _Guitar World_ article, in which the layout is changed. Nobody at Wikipedia bothered to refer to the print version, in which the "Where Are They Now" section appears on p. 84 but the article continues for another 2 pages; there are 14 guitarists listed after Alex, so he's hardly a footnote. Not that anyone at Wikipedia seemed to care.


----------



## BigBaldIan

Martin Stillion said:


> I haven't personally seen any posts made by Alex to this forum or any other where the claim is made out of context. I guess I'll have to take your word for it.
> 
> That is voxhumana's impression of the Web version of the _Guitar World_ article, in which the layout is changed. Nobody at Wikipedia bothered to refer to the print version, in which the "Where Are They Now" section appears on p. 84 but the article continues for another 2 pages; there are 14 guitarists listed after Alex, so he's hardly a footnote. Not that anyone at Wikipedia seemed to care.



However as you've pointed out earlier, as far as you were aware the original wikipedia edits were made by Gregory himself and were not in context. Surely then it stands to reason that you have seen evidence of this behaviour? I'm sorry Martin but it seems that you're contradicting yourself every time you post.

As to the second point, wikipedia uses a *body* of evidence to establish whether someone is noteworthy. After all the self-referential evidence (and I use the term evidence very loosely) was pared back, the sole verifiable article that anyone could find was a passing mention in Guitar World. The layout or the fact other guitarists were after him is an irrelevancy, his claims about his life could not be independently verified. You simply cannot have a Wiki article that states:

"Alex Gregory, rock guitarist and mandolin player who appeared in Guitar World's "Where Are They Now?" section." Please look at the larger picture and not focus on minutiae.


----------



## Martin Stillion

BigBaldIan said:


> However as you've pointed out earlier, as far as you were aware the original wikipedia edits were made by Gregory himself and were not in context. Surely then it stands to reason that you have seen evidence of this behaviour? I'm sorry Martin but it seems that you're contradicting yourself every time you post.


I didn't see what Alex submitted to Wikipedia until it had been through several iterations of editing. I have no idea what it originally said. So allow me once more to state that I personally have not witnessed an instance of Alex making what could be reasonably interpreted as a categorical claim about inventing 7-string guitars. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I haven't seen it. All I've seen is you and voxhumana quoting a statement from Alex's Web site out of context in a way that makes it _seem _categorical. 


> As to the second point, wikipedia uses a *body* of evidence to establish whether someone is noteworthy. After all the self-referential evidence (and I use the term evidence very loosely) was pared back, the sole verifiable article that anyone could find was a passing mention in Guitar World.


The patents exist and can be verified. The recordings exist and can be verified. The Pentasystem instruments, other electric mandolins, and guitars exist and can be verified. 


> The layout or the fact other guitarists were after him is an irrelevancy,


It's relevant if you're trying to determine whether the term "footnote" is accurate, which it isn't. Sidebar perhaps, footnote no. IIRC voxhumana wanted to claim that Alex wasn't even supposed to be considered one of the "50 Fastest Guitarists" listed in the article. That's semi-plausible if you only look at the lousy Web layout, but ridiculous if you look at the print layout.


----------



## Explorer

I see.

So, you originally signed up to ensure we didn&#8217;t mistakenly attribute anything to your good name. I can agree with that.

However&#8230; you seem to really be invested in making sure we were meticulous in examing contexts, while apparently not asking for the same diligence on the part of Alex Gregory.

To give you an example of why you&#8217;re coming across a bit oddly, you were presented with just three examples of where Alex Gregory was untruthful, to a greater extent than any other person in this situation of Gregory&#8217;s making. You keep making it about others, rather than Gregory.

There&#8217;s the delightful tale of the Boy Who Cried Wolf. Most people interpret it as dealing with the dangers of telling falsehoods. Your approach seems to cast the tale as a lesson in the importance of constant vigilance, in case an accidental truth should appear among falsehood. I&#8217;m not sure that approach is very fruitful. 

I&#8217;m sorry that Alex Gregory&#8217;s actions have resulted in consequences, including his having damaged his credibility so badly. I would imagine that he is greatly heartened by having a close friend who is so invested in restoring his image, although that&#8217;s a small distance from your initial stated concerns. I would suggest, if you are as invested as you seem in the situation, that you ask Alex Gregory to set the record straight, and to possibly apologize for using falsehood for the purposes of self aggrandizement. Manning up and doing the right thing will have more effect than his friends berating us for smelling the bullshit.

You may not realize it, but you&#8217;re engaging in behavior which is often attributed to a sock puppet. That&#8217;s probably why the accusation seems so reasonable to those who don&#8217;t know you from the eMando connection. I know that Martin Stillion is an independent person from Alex Gregory, and I can understand why Martin would want to be sure he wasn&#8217;t being misrepresented. However, there is also a huge amount of concern and effort being directed at making sure this website knows that, although he lied about quite a few things, Alex Gregory should still be taken at face value for anything not *proven* to be a lie.

And that&#8217;s just crap. The burden of proof is now on Gregory, and anyone who argues otherwise is likely to smear themselves with the same shit Gregory wound up smearing on himself.

Is that what you want for your own credibility? I don&#8217;t know, but I&#8217;m pretty sure your appeals on behalf of Gregory won&#8217;t gain much traction. 

Cheers!


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## Martin Stillion

Explorer said:


> I see.
> 
> So, you originally signed up to ensure we didn&#8217;t mistakenly attribute anything to your good name. I can agree with that.
> 
> However&#8230; you seem to really be invested in making sure we were meticulous in examing contexts, while apparently not asking for the same diligence on the part of Alex Gregory.


Or, I could just be trying to ensure that your crap detectors aren't on a setting that detects everyone's crap but your own.

Alex isn't participating in this conversation. I wish Alex would present himself in a way that lets his talent speak for itself. I agree that the hyperbole and self-aggrandizement has done him a lot of harm. Untruth on Alex's part, however, does not excuse untruth on anyone else's part.


> However, there is also a huge amount of concern and effort being directed at making sure this website knows that, although he lied about quite a few things, Alex Gregory should still be taken at face value for anything not *proven* to be a lie.


No, I never said that. I said I was here to answer questions; people asked what I knew about Alex's education and what I thought of the Wikipedia debacle, and I answered the questions as best I could. Sorry if you don't like the answers. As a mandolinist who's played a few of the Pentasystem instruments, I'd say Alex deserves recognition for an excellent design, irrespective of anything else he might have done or not done. I realize his own behavior makes it unlikely that he'll get that recognition, at least on Wikipedia.


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## BigBaldIan

Martin Stillion said:


> I didn't see what Alex submitted to Wikipedia until it had been through several iterations of editing. I have no idea what it originally said. So allow me once more to state that I personally have not witnessed an instance of Alex making what could be reasonably interpreted as a categorical claim about inventing 7-string guitars. Not to say that it didn't happen, but I haven't seen it. All I've seen is you and voxhumana quoting a statement from Alex's Web site out of context in a way that makes it _seem _categorical.



Whilst I initially looked at the statement out of context, it has been discussed thoroughly at length and ad nauseam in subsequent posts. If you would care to actually go back and do me the common courtesy of reading my posts afterwards, I discuss the context of his statement in grim and grisly detail (post #122 I'll make it easy for you). That is to say I discuss the statement in relation to the invention of the 7-string electo-accoustic guitar, solid body electric guitar and solid body tuned from E to A. No matter how finely you define the statement, what can actually be asserted to be true i.e. emperically proved is so far from the original statement as to be risable.

I'm sorry your argument is about as fireproof as The Hindenburg



Martin Stillion said:


> The patents exist and can be verified. The recordings exist and can be verified. The Pentasystem instruments, other electric mandolins, and guitars exist and can be verified.



Again, it's a *body *of evidence, so now the article would read:

"Alex Gregory, rock guitarist and mandolin player, holder of several patents regarding musical instruments (list of patents) who appeared in Guitar World's "Where Are They Now?"

So by that argument, all I need to do to is to have a few a patents and I'm automatically noteworthy for wikipedia? Quick to the patent office! All sarcasm aside for a moment, you won't find a wiki article for Kevan J. Geier. Who? Inventer of the tremol-no and deep c, has patents, has articles in magazines and online. Patents does not necessarily or automatically mean noteworthy, case closed. Q.E.D.

There are dare I say it hundreds of people possibly on this very forum who have released their own records who are likewise not on wikipedia and wouldn't pass the same criteria.



Martin Stillion said:


> It's relevant if you're trying to determine whether the term "footnote" is accurate, which it isn't. Sidebar perhaps, footnote no. IIRC voxhumana wanted to claim that Alex wasn't even supposed to be considered one of the "50 Fastest Guitarists" listed in the article. That's semi-plausible if you only look at the lousy Web layout, but ridiculous if you look at the print layout.



Again, you're focusing on semantic minutiae, no-one is interested in whether Gregory is a "footnote" or "sidebar" based on an article. What wikipedia is interested in, is whether there is a *body* of evidence big enough to warrant his inclusion.



Martin Stillion said:


> Untruth on Alex's part, however, does not excuse untruth on anyone else's part.



Unless the meaning of truth has changed dramatically over the past few minutes, I believe that's what this entire thread has been about. Trying to discern any truth behind Gregoary's claims, hence opening them up to scrutiny and finding evidence.


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## Martin Stillion

BigBaldIan said:


> I'm sorry your argument is about as fireproof as The Hindenburg


My argument is merely that the claim is not a categorical claim, i.e., it is not meant to apply to all types of 7-string guitars. This is clear from the context. By "context" I mean the 5 paragraphs of text surrounding the claim where it is made on Alex's site. What you wrote in post 122 is discussion, not context. 

I do not assert that the claim is accurate. I do not assert that the claim is not misleading. I merely assert that, read in context, it is not categorical. 



> Again, it's a *body *of evidence, so now the article would read:
> 
> "Alex Gregory, rock guitarist and mandolin player, holder of several patents regarding musical instruments (list of patents) who appeared in Guitar World's "Where Are They Now?"


I'm not asking you to write the article. Hypothetically, an article might have been written that focused on Alex's actual achievements, without all the hype, and such an article might have had a shot at being deemed "noteworthy" by the wiki-gods ... but we'll never know, will we? 


> All sarcasm aside for a moment, you won't find a wiki article for Kevan J. Geier. Who? Inventer of the tremol-no and deep c, has patents, has articles in magazines and online. Patents does not necessarily or automatically mean noteworthy, case closed. Q.E.D.


Poor Kevan, maybe you should submit a Wikipedia article about him. It's worth a try. 


> Again, you're focusing on semantic minutiae, no-one is interested in whether Gregory is a "footnote" or "sidebar" based on an article.


 That's right, misrepresentations don't matter unless they're made by someone you don't like.


> Unless the meaning of truth has changed dramatically over the past few minutes, I believe that's what this entire thread has been about. Trying to discern any truth behind Gregoary's claims, hence opening them up to scrutiny and finding evidence.


Which is all fine if you can manage to do it without contributing your own misrepresentations in the process.


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## eaeolian

Wow, you guys should get a room and just beat on each other. Drop it.


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