# Playing rhythm - alternate picking or downpicking only?



## Drew (Sep 13, 2007)

Ok, I've never really thought about this much, but here goes - 

As you know, I now own a Rectifier and a Tube Screamer. I plug in, hit a chord, and it's like Instant Nevermore, Just Add Talent.&#8482; Thus, I've been practicing my rhythm guitar shit, playing fast palm muted stuff, because I suck at it and want to Add Talent.

I've always discounted the downpick-only school because, Hetfield be damned, you can play twice as fast if you alternate than if you downpick only. However, last night, I noticed that while it didn't make much of a difference for single note stuff, for power chords and full chords it sounded a LOT more blurred if I was alternate picking 16ths than if I wa downpicking 16ths. I suspect this is becauce I'm hitting the top note and the bottom note of the chord at slightly different times, and the faster you're going the more those slight changes add up. So, I'm wondering if I've been wrong about downpicking all these years. 

So, clearly, because I'm a sheep and do whatever I'm told, I thought I'd post a poll on the internet so I could do whatever everyone else does. Kidding - actually, I just want advice from guys who are better metal players than me (i.e - all of you fuckers. ) So, how do you play fast muted rhythm parts?


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## Chris (Sep 13, 2007)

I can do both pretty well, and honestly they're two very different techniques and as such, you get two very different sounds. There's no right/wrong time to alt pick vs. down-only, it's all in the sound you're going for.

I grew up jamming old Metallica, and if you play MoP alt-picked versus the Hetfield way, there's a definite tonal difference.


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## distressed_romeo (Sep 13, 2007)

Chris said:


> I can do both pretty well, and honestly they're two very different techniques and as such, you get two very different sounds. There's no right/wrong time to alt pick vs. down-only, it's all in the sound you're going for.
> 
> I grew up jamming old Metallica, and if you play MoP alt-picked versus the Hetfield way, there's a definite tonal difference.



What he said.  I'd keep practicing both and use them when appropriate.


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## Drew (Sep 13, 2007)

How the fuck can I be a fuckin' sheep if you don't tell me what to do!


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## Chris (Sep 13, 2007)

Learn to play Master of Puppets, dude.  It's the best way to learn to downpick, imo.


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## poisonelvis (Sep 13, 2007)

i found it's all in what type rhythm i'm playing.muted stuff,down stroke,open speedy stuff alt.i get a heavyer tone muted down stroke.


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## Zepp88 (Sep 13, 2007)

I use both, MoP definetly taught me how to downpick. I had to practice the shit out of alternate picking to get it right. 

Use both. Sheep.


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## noodles (Sep 13, 2007)

Everyone has a threshold where they can no longer downpick cleanly and/or powerfully, and that is where you need to switch to alternate picking. For metal, you want to keep pushing that transition further and further away. Even for single notes, there is a noticeable difference: chu-ga-chu-ga-chu-ga-chu-ga, verses chug-chug-chug-chug. You can drive a rhythm more aggressively this way.

Mike and I downpick almost everything we can. It sounds tighter and more aggressive, especially with two guitars. When playing harmony lines, it is almost imperative both guys pick the same way. The alternate picker would get lost, otherwise.

Downpicking eighth notes makes it far easier to switch to alternate picking sixteenth notes. It is common in metal to switch from eighths to sixteenths, while keeping everything else the same. If you downpick the eighths, then you only have to change the angle of your picking hand. If you alternate pick them, then you have to double your hand speed. This is a very hard transition to get clean, and pushing up my downpicking speeds is almost my way of being lazy.


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## Metal Ken (Sep 13, 2007)

Rule for rhythm guitar:
Unless you're aiming for a specific sound, You will down pick.
you will down pick like a motherfucker. You will down pick until you cannot feel your wrist.
You will down pick so much that in that little movement of snapping your wrist downward, you will be able to accomplish what bruce lee did with the 1" punch.


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## shadowgenesis (Sep 13, 2007)

ermm. i don't consciously think about it. There is definitely a distinct different feel to each technique and sometimes i notice that i'll be playing something all downward strokes just because it comes naturally with whatever rhythm/riff i'm playing.
All downward picking just has this intensely rhythmic, driving feel to it that makes punk music so fuckin energized. I definitely think it's important to use at certain times. But like it's been said, it's all about feel.

now i wanna go chug out some metal on my guitar. *runs off*


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## Rick (Sep 13, 2007)

Mostly downpicking but after I regain consciousness from the rush of downpicking too fast and having my hand almost break off, I alternate.


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## Drew (Sep 13, 2007)

This thread rules.


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## D-EJ915 (Sep 13, 2007)

My strings hit each other when I pick, no matter if I'm doin just down, or up and down...in which case it just happens to be twice as fast as just going down 

Last night I was playing and I was joking with my roommate about how they can't complain about my amp being loud because my actual playing was louder than the amp was


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## lailer75 (Sep 13, 2007)

down is the way to be, like noodles said its way easier to switch to 16ths if your already down picking 8ths


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## Metal Ken (Sep 13, 2007)

D-EJ915 said:


> My strings hit each other when I pick, no matter if I'm doin just down, or up and down...in which case it just happens to be twice as fast as just going down



Ive been trying to figure out how do this. You must really beat the fuck out them strigns man


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## Leon (Sep 13, 2007)

either or. depends. etc, etc.


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## D-EJ915 (Sep 13, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> Ive been trying to figure out how do this. You must really beat the fuck out them strigns man


I told you man, Ryan plays fishing line


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## playstopause (Sep 13, 2007)

I serioulsy love doing the upstroke riffing.
I don't know... With the way i play, it's sounds "djentier&#8482;"... It gives a lot of bite.

So i mostly alternate.
One of my first teacher told me that "it is bad" to only use downstrokes... and i believed him back then


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## zimbloth (Sep 13, 2007)

Drew honestly, it just depends on whatever feels right for you. I do both pretty much. Some things feel more natural one way, or sounds better another way. I'm always mixing just about every kind of picking there is, sometimes even in the same riff. It's whatever works.

Mixing in fast alt picking with well-placed down-picking chugs is always a good reciple for radness IMO 

So, I guess I vote for neither (or both).


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## telecaster90 (Sep 13, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> Rule for rhythm guitar:
> Unless you're aiming for a specific sound, You will down pick.
> you will down pick like a motherfucker. You will down pick until you cannot feel your wrist.
> You will down pick so much that in that little movement of snapping your wrist downward, you will be able to accomplish what bruce lee did with the 1" punch.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 13, 2007)

They both have their place, but the standard for metal rhythm is all downstrokes. If you're doing more complex stuff, though, upstrokes can actually do a lot to change the feel of what you're doing. There are some riffs that I actually start with an upstroke just because that's how it feels/sounds right to me.

Now go play Master of Puppets


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## All_¥our_Bass (Sep 14, 2007)

chuggas: down
fast rythm: alt
chords: down (with a few exceptions)


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## Desecrated (Sep 14, 2007)

I do a lot of triplets and stuff like that so I use alternative picking for those. Also on string skipping I find it easier to use alt.picking. And when you play black metal or grind it's also easier with alt. dammit I think I use alt picking most of the time if I think really hard, it's just so easy compared to playing a whole song with downstrokes only. But they are good for chugs.


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## shadowgenesis (Sep 14, 2007)

playstopause said:


> One of my first teacher told me that "it is bad" to only use downstrokes... and i believed him back then



It's ok. He's BURNING IN HELL RIGHT NOW. With the constant badgering by your fellow forum members, you should recover in no time.


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## Nick (Sep 14, 2007)

noodles said:


> Everyone has a threshold where they can no longer downpick cleanly and/or powerfully, and that is where you need to switch to alternate picking. For metal, you want to keep pushing that transition further and further away. Even for single notes, there is a noticeable difference: chu-ga-chu-ga-chu-ga-chu-ga, verses chug-chug-chug-chug. You can drive a rhythm more aggressively this way.
> 
> Mike and I downpick almost everything we can. It sounds tighter and more aggressive, especially with two guitars. When playing harmony lines, it is almost imperative both guys pick the same way. The alternate picker would get lost, otherwise.
> 
> Downpicking eighth notes makes it far easier to switch to alternate picking sixteenth notes. It is common in metal to switch from eighths to sixteenths, while keeping everything else the same. If you downpick the eighths, then you only have to change the angle of your picking hand. If you alternate pick them, then you have to double your hand speed. This is a very hard transition to get clean, and pushing up my downpicking speeds is almost my way of being lazy.




fact

i try and downpick as much as i can and only when i cant keep up the pace do i switch to alt


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## playstopause (Sep 14, 2007)

shadowgenesis said:


> It's ok. He's BURNING IN HELL RIGHT NOW. With the constant badgering by your fellow forum members, you should recover in no time.





It's probably because back then, i was only using downstrokes... Oups, forgot to mention.


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## TheMasterplan (Sep 14, 2007)

Chris said:


> I can do both pretty well, and honestly they're two very different techniques and as such, you get two very different sounds. There's no right/wrong time to alt pick vs. down-only, it's all in the sound you're going for.



 

When I play slower muted parts, I find that just using downstrokes gives the sound a different quality than if I were to alt. pick it and I like the downstroke only better. As for faster? I can do both, but I find alternate much easier. It depends on the occasion because as previously mentioned, they can give two very different sounds.


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## Nick (Sep 14, 2007)

lol i like how its like 2:1 for the wrong way.

i wonder how many people do it as a bad habbit or how many people only play alt when they have to.


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## Matt Crooks (Sep 14, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> Rule for rhythm guitar:
> Unless you're aiming for a specific sound, You will down pick.
> you will down pick like a motherfucker. You will down pick until you cannot feel your wrist.
> You will down pick so much that in that little movement of snapping your wrist downward, you will be able to accomplish what bruce lee did with the 1" punch.



QFT


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## Toshiro (Sep 14, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> Rule for rhythm guitar:
> Unless you're aiming for a specific sound, You will down pick.
> you will down pick like a motherfucker. You will down pick until you cannot feel your wrist.
> You will down pick so much that in that little movement of snapping your wrist downward, you will be able to accomplish what bruce lee did with the 1" punch.



+1 

Down-pick all rhythms unless they're trem-picked or gallops, or you're going for some weird syncopated thing.


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## Drew (Sep 14, 2007)

Nick said:


> lol i like how its like 2:1 for the wrong way.
> 
> i wonder how many people do it as a bad habbit or how many people only play alt when they have to.



I think most people aren't reading the thread.  Fast single-note stuff really is easier alternated, and sounds basically the same. However, you start doing that to double-stops, and it sounds like shit... 

Anyway, I've been practicing my downstrokes lately... My forearm muscle tenses up after a minute or two at moderate tempo, but that's because I'm not used to this yet.  I've got some practice ahead of me.


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## Groff (Sep 14, 2007)

Chris said:


> Learn to play Master of Puppets, dude.  It's the best way to learn to downpick, imo.



I used to downpick it, but my old teacher use to alt pick it, which is something I could never do until recently.

I use downpicking for certian situations, and alternate for others. If I want the tone to be punchy and sharper, I down pick, If i want it smoother and get some dynamics, i alternate.

It really depends on what you're playing.


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## noodles (Sep 14, 2007)

Drew said:


> Anyway, I've been practicing my downstrokes lately... My forearm muscle tenses up after a minute or two at moderate tempo, but that's because I'm not used to this yet.  I've got some practice ahead of me.



Pain is weakness leaving the body.


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## Metal Ken (Sep 14, 2007)

TheMissing said:


> I used to downpick it, but my old teacher use to alt pick it, which is something I could never do until recently.



Your old teacher was playing it wrong. Its against the laws of physics for pre-1989 james hetfield to up pick. when he started up picking, the black album came out.


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## oompa (Sep 14, 2007)

voted alternate, but it depends on what kind of sound you want. same goes with upwards picking only, muted it provides an interesting sound for 2-3 note chords on the thinner strings i have just realized. i have experimented a lot with it lately since i found out upwards picking is extremely uncomfortable for me so i want to master it 

but as chris said, go over some metallica (MoP), and some of their other stuff, like the track "through the never" from the black album makes good practice.


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## Metal Ken (Sep 14, 2007)

oompa said:


> voted alternate, but it depends on what kind of sound you want. same goes with upwards picking only, muted it provides an interesting sound for 2-3 note chords on the thinner strings i have just realized. i have experimented a lot with it lately since i found out upwards picking is extremely uncomfortable for me so i want to master it
> 
> but as chris said, go over some metallica (MoP), and some of their other stuff, like the track "through the never" from the black album makes good practice.




The live version of Creeping Death from Live Shit:B&P IS quite the motherfucker, as far as metallica goes.


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## oompa (Sep 14, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> The live version of Creeping Death from Live Shit:B&P IS quite the motherfucker, as far as metallica goes.



another excellent example


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## HamBungler (Sep 14, 2007)

What I do is try to get the upstrokes to sound like the downstrokes by using the same amount of force on ascent and descent. This is mainly with rhythm playing, I'll put more dynamics in from time to time or go with just downpicking to work my right arm more, cuz if you can play just down really fast, think how fast you can go both ways!


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## JBroll (Sep 15, 2007)

I typically consider a song's tempo to be the quarter-note frequency that corresponds to the fastest eighth-notes I can manage consistently with downpicks, and then alternate-picking becomes 'double-time' as the jazz guys always call it. Downpicking feels and sounds better, and although guys like Al DiMeola insisted that every note be played with the same force and feel on either stroke I find that, given my angle and the force I pick with, there are differences even in my single notes.

Hopefully that first sentence isn't too nonsensical, I have trouble figuring out how to explain that better.

Jeff


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