# Playing Modes Over A Minor Key?



## The Hoff (Jul 3, 2008)

I know that Modes are just scales starting on certain degrees of the Major scale, i.e. D Dorian is the C Major Scale starting on the 2nd degree, E Phrygian is the C Major starting on the 3rd, etc. But what would you do if you were playing in a Minor key like C minor instead of C major? I thought you would just play the Dorian on the 2nd degree, Phrygian on the 3rd like normal only you would use Minor Scale construction instead of the Major. But I know I'm wrong so I came here for answers.

Can anyone here who actually understands what I mean (sorry if it's unclear rofl) answer this for me?


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## Luan (Jul 3, 2008)

modes are scales.
When you play in a minor key, you play in a minor key, not in dorian or whatever.
what you can do, is to play substitutions in order to give the sound of a mode over other scale.
Rather than thinking that a mode "starts" on other note, you must think that it has the tonic, the tonal center on that note, it sounds a lot different. They only share the same notes, but the sound is completely different.


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## RgAscendant (Jul 8, 2008)

Luan said:


> When you play in a minor key, you play in a minor key, not in dorian or whatever.



The Aeolian mode is the minor scale, just as Ionian is the major scale. The mode were taken from Eastern music and adapted for Western music, and two contrasting modes, the Aeolian and the Ionian, were taken as the major and minor keys.

But as for the original question, I have no idea, I'm not too good with utilising different modes .


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## SnowfaLL (Jul 8, 2008)

uhh.. when you play in a minor key, you play in a minor key... DORIAN is a minor key. Hence the b3. Major = normal third, Minor = b3

To the OP question, When you are playing with a minor root key and want to find the other modes, you have to treat your Minor root as your 6th degree.. because the 6th mode is Aeolian, Your natural minor.. 

If you start with C min.. that is C Aeolian, then comes D Locrian, E Major (ionian), F# Dorian, etc etc.

Here is how it ALWAYS goes.

1 Maj
2 Min
3 Min
4 Maj
5 Dom( in triads, still Maj)
6 Min -- NATURAL MINOR, if your root is C min, think of this as 6, to find the other modes
7 Min


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## Luan (Jul 8, 2008)

Get some harmony books.
All the replies have been weird (including mine).


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## psychoticsnoman (Jul 22, 2008)

I am reviving this thread as i have a somewhat similar question, 

ok say you are playing a C Major (ionian) chord progression, and over that you wanted to play in Phrygian would you just flat the 2 3 6 and 7th degrees of the C major to make it Phrygian, or would you play an E Phrygian using the exact same notes as the C Ionian scale in a different context ? 

this is a question that i have not really got a definite answer to that i have asked a couple people


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## kmanick (Jul 22, 2008)

You guys need to get Gambales "Modes No More Mystery" DVD.
it's priceless in helping you understand this stuff and not just grasping it but hearing it and seeing the formulas that Gambale spells out for you .
GO GET IT!!!!!
Amazon.com: Modes No More Mystery, Frank Gambale: Frank Gambale: Music


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## SlipknotKoRnfan (Jul 24, 2008)

well just use the relative major/minor rule. If you're playng C minor, then its the same exact scale as E flat major, but instead of starting it on the E flat (or the third degree of C minor scale) you start it on the C (or the sixth degree of the E flat major scale) so use the modes from E flat major scale, but starting on the sixth degree, so for example it would be C Aeolian 1st degree, D Locrian 2nd degree, E flat Ionian 3rd degree, F Dorian 4th degree, G Phrygian 5th degree, and so on... Hope that helped.



NickCormier said:


> uhh.. when you play in a minor key, you play in a minor key... DORIAN is a minor key. Hence the b3. Major = normal third, Minor = b3


 

Uhh Dorian isn't minor dude, Aeolian is minor. Dorian only sounds a bit minor becaus eit has some Minor qualities to it i.e: it has a minor third in it, but the sixth degree is Major in a Dorian Mode so it is false to call it minor.


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 24, 2008)

Gah! These damn modes making trouble again! 

The easiest way to view modes (in my opinion) is harmonically. Don't think about playing F Lydian, just record yourself beating the crap out of a C major chord and then an F major chord. Then play C major starting from _any_ note. Don't shred, just mess around at comprehensible speeds. It should sound different over the F major chord. THAT is the lydian tonality. 

Alternatively use F as a pedal point and go up and down the C major scale, then do the same with C as the pedal. This should also evoke the Lydian (F as pedal) and Ionian (C as pedal) tonalities. 

Modes irritate me a little, they make themselves so difficult to understand, and yet, they have almost no practical use. Except in jazz. And there the best use, as far as I can see in my anti-modal ravings, is almost as a mnemonic-like thing in chord-scale relationships. It's easier to remember to play G Mixolydian over a G7 chord than C major over a G7 chord, but they are essentially the same thing. 

The Short answer: It doesn't matter if the key is minor or major. An F major chord in the key of A minor is still lydian, since we name this crap in relation to the major scale. Therefore, there should be no difference. 

The Short answer part II (To psychoticsnoman): NO!!!!!!!!!! Unless I am misunderstanding you, no. If you want to play E phrygian, which would be the phrgian mode in the key of C major, then no, do not flat those degrees. If you want to play C PHYGIAN, then yes, although that is in the key of G# major (F minor). The only reason the 2nd, 3rd, 6th, and 7th degrees are flatted is because one is looking at the SAME EXACT scale from the note C instead of G#.


Oh and to the best of my knowledge modes are rarely, if ever, considered keys, a melody might be called a D Dorian melody, because it refers to the specific note and harmony around which it centers, but it is in the key of C major/ A minor.


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## Stuart (Jul 25, 2008)

The hardest thing to get is that there are 2 ways to view modes. The one most people go for is the parent scale. i.e. this mode is derived from this parent (major) scale. This is because it is easier to do it this way because you only have to learn one scale, (in all positions) to know any mode. The problem with this view is that when you start thinking about say C phrygian you then have to think about what the parent scale is to play the appropriate mode. If you though of each individual mode as being the key scale with alteration then it frees you up in the long run. E.g. major scale is 1,2,3,4,5,6,7. Then the modes are gona contain each degree either as it is or flat/sharp. E.g. dorian =1,2,3b,4,5,6,7b. You then know that you need to play the major scale with the 3rd and 7th notes flat. In my opinion its much easier than thinking about it like your playing in a different key. Take Nicks chord diagram. There are 4 minor modes. That is to say that they have more notes from the minor mode than the major one. Most of the modes have all of either the major or minor pentatonic notes within them. this is how you know if it a major or minor mode.

Oh and to the best of my knowledge modes are rarely, if ever, considered keys, a melody might be called a D Dorian melody, because it refers to the specific note and harmony around which it centers, but it is in the key of C major/ A minor.[/QUOTE]

A contradiction in terms. Everyone knows at least 2 modes. Major and minor. All modes are derived from major. How can you be playing in the key A minor when that is a mode of C major unless the mode is the key? Of course, you can play in the key of A minor, just as you can be playing the key of D dorian.


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## SnowfaLL (Jul 25, 2008)

I meant dorian is a MINOR mode. Not Natural Minor, but it is considered a MINOR mode. When you talk about minor modes, Dorian fits.

If you are playing over something and want to play some minor improvising.. Playing a Dorian will WORK. because Dorian is minor, cept it has a Natural 6, which is what gives it its dorian sound (obviously). Yet, It is considered a MINOR mode and will work perfectly fine.


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## TonalArchitect (Jul 25, 2008)

Oh and to the best of my knowledge modes are rarely, if ever, considered keys, a melody might be called a D Dorian melody, because it refers to the specific note and harmony around which it centers, but it is in the key of C major/ A minor.[/quote]

A contradiction in terms. Everyone knows at least 2 modes. Major and minor. All modes are derived from major. How can you be playing in the key A minor when that is a mode of C major unless the mode is the key? Of course, you can play in the key of A minor, just as you can be playing the key of D dorian.[/quote]

That is true, but I am merely relating that this is, as far as I have seen, the basic practice to call key signatures according to either the major (Ionian) or minor (Aeolian) modes. It seems to me as if theorists and composers name them by their basic tonalities: major or minor. I cannot recall any pieces named, for example, called "Fugue in Ab Dorian." Not to say that no such things exist, but they are at most infrequent.

Further, while the Ionian scale is the major scale and the Aeolian the minor, pieces are named "... in G minor" not "G Aeolian." 

So I was just saying the common practice. My thinking: "It's called 'Concerto for Two Violins in D minor,' not Bb Lydian." (Yes it may be firmly grounded in the Aeolian mode, I'm too lazy to check and don't care, but do all of these pieces with key signatures in the names stick precisely to the Ionian or Aeolian modes for their entire duration?)


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## Stuart (Jul 26, 2008)

NickCormier said:


> I meant dorian is a MINOR mode. Not Natural Minor, but it is considered a MINOR mode. When you talk about minor modes, Dorian fits.
> 
> If you are playing over something and want to play some minor improvising.. Playing a Dorian will WORK. because Dorian is minor, cept it has a Natural 6, which is what gives it its dorian sound (obviously). Yet, It is considered a MINOR mode and will work perfectly fine.



Are you trying to subtley tell me something? Something about MINOR? Yes it has most of the notes of the minor scale but it would sound out of place unless you use the associated chords that the mode create.


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