# Circle Of Fifths



## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

I'm just learning it now then I'll find out how to use it but for now, just learning! xD
Right I know the major thing is FCGDAEB for sharps and BEADGCF for flats
And from that I had looked on wikipedia about key signatures and seen a picture and realized it was A major so I read it to see if I was right and it said F# Minor as well, I had completely forgot about the Minor in the circle xD And I can't find anything about the minor things so is it.. daebfcg for the sharps and gcfbead ...? yeah im confused


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## AK DRAGON (Aug 23, 2009)

Here is the scales

Major 
W W H W W W H
C Maj
c d e f g a b c

Minor 
W H W W H W Whttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_tone
C Minor
C D D# F G G# A# C ( I think this is right)


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

I mean for the minor thing  on the picture of the circle of fifths


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2009)

The accidentals stay the same. Minor keys are relative to major keys, so they will contain the same notes as their relative major. Here's a diagram that I drew up:






The outside keys are major keys, and the inside keys are the relative minor. To illustrate, here's Bb major and g minor:

Bb major - Bb C D Eb F G A
g minor - G A Bb C D Eb F

Remember that the minor mode is the sixth mode of the major scale, so the sixth note of any major scale will be the tonic of its relative minor.

You could also go down a minor third from the tonic of a major scale to get the relative minor.

I find that the easiest way to remember the relative minor of a major key is to make the tonic note of the major key the third of a minor triad. For instance, if we're in E major, a minor chord with E as the third is C#m. If you check it against the circle, it works. This is essentially the same as the previous method.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

I have no idea what ANY of that is.. and I've read it repeatedly


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2009)

Regarding the circle, you add flats when you go to the left (F is 1 flat, Bb is 2 flats, etc.), and sharps when you go to the right (G is 1 sharp, D is 2 sharps...). On the outside of the circle, there are all the major keys. Inside the circle are the relative minor keys, which I will explain presently.

Take the key of C major, C D E F G A B. The sixth note is A. If we use the same notes of the C major scale, but start it on A instead, we get A minor: A B C D E F G. Because the notes are the same between both scales, we say that they are related. A minor is the "relative minor" of C major. Likewise, C major is the "relative major" of A minor.

Another example is F major: F G A Bb C D E.
Its relative minor is D minor: D E F G A Bb C.

So, when you see the lowercase letter on the inside of the circle, know that it's a minor key with the same notes as the major scale next to it on the outside.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

ah kwl I understand that I think


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## Hawkevil (Aug 23, 2009)

The inner circle is kind of confusing and isn't needed...

I'm guessing you know how to use the circle of fifths with major key signitures but if you dont then the only rules you need to know is:

C at the top will equal zero when counting how many sharps or flats there are...

If the key you want is on the right side then you will count clockwise from F and add sharps but if the key is on the left then you will count left from Bb and add flats...

So for example if you want to know what the key signiture for A major is you first see it is on the right hand side and if you count from C round to A then it equals 3. That means there will be 3 sharps in the key signiture of A Major. To figure out what them notes are you simply go from F on te circle of fifths and that equals your first note, you then go 2 more clockwise which will give you C and G...

So that means the 3 sharps in A Major are F C and G...

I hope that is clear enough haha...

Anyway, if you want to work out what the minor key signiture is of a certain key you do exactly the same as I stated above except the first step before you do all that is to first choose the key you want so for example if I chose A again but for minor. 

The first thing I would do is look for the note A like usual but then count anti clockwise 3. That would take you to C. You would then work out the key signiture for C Major. This is because if you count anti clockwise 3 from any note then that will be the relative major to the key you want.

Man, it's a lot harder to explain on the internet than in real life. I hope you can get something out of this though haha...


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

But why shouldn't I know the minor part of the circle ? :O for like.. other stuff apart from key signatures?


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## Hawkevil (Aug 23, 2009)

I've never had any other purpose for the circle of fifths other than key signatures. 

I'm not saying its wrong to know the inside circle. It's just yhe way I was taught is less confusing IMO...


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

What about for chord progressions? I don't know chord progressions yet but I heard the circle of fifths was helpful for them

Oh and scales, how many sharps or flats there are in the scale


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## Hawkevil (Aug 23, 2009)

Hmm I've never used it for that. The only link I can see with them is the key signatures. Using a key signature for chord progressions is kind of like an equation to work out if a chord is major, minor, etc because the key signature tells you what notes to use in each chord which would then tell you what chord type it is!


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

Ok, so if... the key was C major it's an A minor.. so say it was a Dflat major would it be a Bflat minor?

But anyway yeah.. I think I need to know the major things to know how many sharps or flats are in a scale


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## Hawkevil (Aug 23, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> Ok, so if... the key was C major it's an A minor.. so say it was a Dflat major would it be a Bflat minor?
> 
> But anyway yeah.. I think I need to know the major things to know how many sharps or flats are in a scale


 

No your getting it mixed up with the clockwise and anti clockwise situation with figuring out how many sharps and flats there are. 


You always go anti clockwise when working out a minor keys signature. 

Like say you want to know what they key of G minor is. You go anti clockwise 3 to get to Bb. The key signature of Bb major is the same as G minor. 

So you work out what Bb major is and to do that you count how many from C it is which is 2. THen you go from Bb and count two notes which is Bb and Eb. 

That is then your key signature for both Bb major and G minor.

If you understand modes its kind of following that basis where you are starting from a different note but with the same key signature to give you a different mode.

If you don't understand modes then don't listen to that because it might just confuse you ever more haha...


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

ah I get it, I don't know modes tho


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## Hawkevil (Aug 23, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> ah I get it, I don't know modes tho


 

Haha glad you could make sense of my ramblings...

Modes are another story however as they can get a lot more complicated than this the more you look into them.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

Lol, I'll have a look at them sometime when I'm done with all this xD I'll probz end up gettin confused and post about it again tbh, I tend to do that xD

I just been writing everything that I've found out about the circle of fifths could someone tell me if this is right?



 *Major Sharps:*
 FCGDAEB
 *Major Flats:*
 BEADGCF
 *Minor Sharps:*
 DAEBFCG
 *Minor Flats*
 GCFBEAD


 *CoF For Key Signatures*




 If you know the Key Signature as a Major then to find the Minor you just count 3 onto that clockwise. eg. C Major / A Minor. The A Minor is a relative minor / Minor Third to the C Major. You Can also tell what sharps and flats are in the Key Signature by the start of the way to remember them eg. B Major has F#C#G#D#A#.
 

 *CoF For Scales*




 The more you go around the circle the more sharps or flats they get and you can tell what sharps or flats they have by the start of each way to remember them. eg. D Major Scale has 2 sharps, F & C.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> Lol, I'll have a look at them sometime when I'm done with all this xD I'll probz end up gettin confused and post about it again tbh, I tend to do that xD
> 
> I just been writing everything that I've found out about the circle of fifths could someone tell me if this is right?
> 
> ...


This is true, but, I find the minor sharps/flats thing confusing. Let me write out all the sharp keys:

C - C D E F G A B
G - G A B C D E F#
D - D E F# A B C#
A - A B C# D E F# G#
E - E F# G# A B C# D#
B - B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# - F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# - C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

So, to write the scale out, you start with the tonic (starting note, or 'root') of the scale, and count how many places away from C that key is. If you want A major, you see that it is three places away from C on the circle, so you add three sharps from the order of sharps, FCGDAEB, which would give you the notes F# C# G#.

Now, the minor scales. The relative minor of any major scale starts from its sixth note, no ifs ands or buts. Thus, if we want the relative minor of A, we'd count to its sixth note, F#. The notes of F# minor are the same as A major, F# G# A B C# D E, but starting at a different place. This is why I like the inner circle/outer circle thing; it shows the major key and its relative minor right next to each other.


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## HammerAndSickle (Aug 23, 2009)

Which is why I plan to get a circle of fifths tattoed where a watch would normally go!


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

That is such a kwl idea xD


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2009)

I just remembered another way to find a minor scale: add three flats to whatever major scale you want to turn minor. This is kind of what Hawkevil was talking about. Say you want to make C minor. Take C major, and add three flats, in order: *BEA*DGCF.
C major: C D E F G A B
C minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb

Bb major: Bb C D Eb F G A
Bb minor: Bb C Db Eb F Gb Ab

With sharps, you just take away sharps:

F# major: F# G# A# B C# D# E#
F# minor: F# G# A B C# D E

A major: A B C# D E F# G#
A minor: A B C D E F G

D major: D E F# G A B C#
D minor: D E F G A Bb C


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 23, 2009)

Is there anyway to find out what notes are in the scale not just how many sharps or flats there are ?

btw thanks for all the help so far I'm learning alot xD


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## shayla (Aug 23, 2009)

This is the way I learned them while taking singing lessons... I don't understand the circle of fifths at all really either, so no worries about that!! For flat keys it's Battle Ends And Down Go Charles Father... BEADGCF is the order they appear in... the key of F has a Bb the rest if you're in the key of say Db you just count one more flat ahead so you would have a B E A D AND G flat in the key signature. If you have the key signature say 3 flats B E and A then you count back one and you see you're in Eb maj. Does this make any sense so far? For the minor keys you count 3 up or down. If you're given a minor key you count up 3 so say we're in G min.. G, A B that gives us the relative major which is Bb major because G is natural in the key of Bb, whereas in Bmajor it is sharp. Is this making any sense yet? Hehe. If you're given the major key then you count down so Bmajor.. B, A , G# min... To remember the sharp keys I used this Good Day Best Friend Charley, GDAEBC, the order of these sharps is the reverse of the flats as you know FCGDAEB. So the key of G has one sharp, that's F the key of B has 5 F C G D A E. to figure out the notes in a scale it depends on the scale.. major.. minor.. pentatonics.. the modes.. natural harmonic or melodic minor... which are you asking about? I hope I helped and didn't confuse you!!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 23, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> Is there anyway to find out what notes are in the scale not just how many sharps or flats there are ?
> 
> btw thanks for all the help so far I'm learning alot xD



All the notes that aren't affected by the sharps and flats are natural. The key of C has no accidentals. As soon as you move anywhere else on the circle, you add accidentals, according to the order of sharps or flats.

Order of sharps: FCGDAEB
Order of flats: BEADGCF

Thus, if I say a key has four sharps, those four sharps are going to be F#, C#, G#, and D#. All the other notes around it are going to be natural:
C# D# E F# G# A B
If you look on the circle, the key signature with four sharps is E major, or C# minor.

If we had a key signature with five sharps, those sharps would be F# C# G# D# A# (notice that we're adding A# to the same order of sharps from the last key), and the scale around it would be B major or G# minor.

B major: B C# D# E F# G# A#
G# minor: G# A# B C# D# E F#

EDIT: It might make it easier if I number the diagram.






At the top, you'll see that the sharps are added going clockwise, and flats are added going counter-clockwise. If the number of flats is 5, those five flats will always be BEADG. Six flats will always be BEADGC. Every other note in the scale will be natural, and you can't mix sharps and flats (except in harmonic and melodic minor, but that's an exception and beyond the scope of this discussion).


------------------------------------------------

Also, regarding progressions, I should let you know that there are two kinds of circles of fifths: chromatic and diatonic. The chromatic circle of fifths is what that picture is, and shows different keys. The diatonic circle of fifths is what diatonic chord progressions are derived from, and requires an understanding of that roman numeral business. It's a different deal, and you should probably understand the chromatic circle before we get into the diatonic circle.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Thanks so much! O_O I understood all of that !  yupppp and I'll have a look at the diatonic circle whenever I'm done with this


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

Awesome, dude. If I asked you to write down the notes of the relative minor of Gb, could you do that?


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Ohhhh, u know the way the sharps work, u get another sharp the more it goes around to the right on the scale, does it work the same way with the flats?

Ummm relative minor of Gb would be.. Bb major?

and what about at the bottom of the circle  how can there be 6 sharps? I thought there was only 5

Also.. before I go onto chord progressions I'm gonna have to know alot of chords right? xD I only know the basic chords tbh, like... the open chords or whatever ya call 'em, G, C, Am, Em, E, B7, A & D :S I'd say that's all I know all at like the first frets


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

Not quite. The relative minor of Gb major is Eb minor. Gb has 6 flats. The order of flats is BEADGCF, so BEADGC are all flat in the key of Gb. If you spell a scale from Gb, using those flats, you get this: Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
The sixth note in the scale is Eb. Thus, the relative minor of Gb is Eb minor.


Those three keys down there with the slashes are called "enharmonic keys". That means that when you play them, they sound exactly the same, but they are spelled differently. Db and C# sound exactly the same, but Db is spelled with 5 flats, whereas C# is spelled with 7 sharps.

Yes, it works the same way with flats. The more left you go, the more flats you add. There are seven sharps and seven flats. You might have noticed this, but if you haven't I'll put it out there. The order that you add flats is the opposite of the order of sharps. Check it out:

b: BEADGCF
#: FCGDAEB


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh I was thinking u meant minor Gb xD if it was the minor Gb it would've been Bb right?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

Pretty close, actually. It would have been Bbb major, which is a theoretical scale which you will never see - a key with nine flats. Here it is: Bbb Cb Db Ebb Fb Gb Ab

As a rule, you don't write a key signature with more than seven sharps or flats, as you get into the territory of double sharps and flats, which is more information than most people are willing to deal with.

Bbb is enharmonic to A, by the way.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

I'm offically scared / confused / a B with 2 flats? xD 

hmm.. like.. B Major Scale has... 7 sharps  so.. It has.. B# C# D# E# F# G# A#, how does it have a B and an E sharp??? I thought they didn't exist


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

The way I notated the three enharmonic keys, the information for the flat keys is on the left of the slash, and the information for the sharp keys is on the right. So, when you see 7/5, that means there are 7 flats in the key, or 5 sharps in its enharmonic key.

So, what I wrote is 7/5 for the keys of Cb/B. In the key of Cb, the notes are Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb. In the key of B, the notes are B C# D# E F# G# A#.

For 5/7, the keys are Db/C#. Db, with five flats, is Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C.
C#, with seven sharps, is C# D# E# F# G# A# B#.

E# and B# do exist, as do Fb and Cb. These notes are "enharmonic" (there's that word again) to other notes.
E# = F
B# = C
Fb = E
Cb = B

Confusing, right? The reason why we call them by these names is to have all the note names whenever we write a scale. If we spelled C# major as C# D# F F# G# A# C C#, then it would be difficult to read and apply all sorts of other theory to. On sheet music, C# F G# looks very different from C# E# G#, but they sound exactly the same way.

I had a bandmate that wasn't formally educated in music, and it bugged the hell out of me when he'd try to explain a chord like that. 


Same deal with the double sharp (which looks like an 'x', as in Fx), and the double flat.
Bb is the same pitch as A#. So, if we take them both down a half step, Bbb is the same as A. For a double sharp example, F# and Gb are the same pitch, but if we take them up a half step, we get Fx, which is the same pitch as G.

Here's what these accidentals look like on a staff (these are Gx and Ebb):





It's very rare that you'll encounter double sharps and flats, but it's good to know what they are. Triple sharps and flats also occur, like Dx# (that's a triple sharp, quadruple is xx), or Ebbb. Know that they exist, but also know that you won't see them very much, if at all.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Took me a couple of times to read over it but woohoo I understand it 

Whenever you gave me this ummm... The sharps major scale stuff

C - C D E F G A B
G - G A B C D E F#
D - D E F# A B C#
A - A B C# D E F# G#
E - E F# G# A B C# D#
B - B C# D# E F# G# A#
F# - F# G# A# B C# D# E#
C# - C# D# E# F# G# A# B#

The rest are flats.. so..

C - C D E F G A B
Bb - Bb C D E F G A
Eb - Eb F G A Bb C D
Ab - Ab Bb C D Eb F G
Db - Db Eb F G Ab Bb C
Gb - Gb Ab Bb C Db Eb F
Cb - Cb Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb
Fb - Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb

Is that it? for the major flats


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> Took me a couple of times to read over it but woohoo I understand it
> 
> Whenever you gave me this ummm... The sharps major scale stuff
> 
> ...


Not quite, but you're getting there. BEADGCF is the order that the flats are added to the key. These are the flat keys:

C - C D E F G A B
F - F G A Bb C D E
Bb - Bb C D Eb F G A
Eb - Eb F G Ab Bb C D
Ab - Ab Bb C Db Eb F G
Db - Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C
Gb - Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F
Cb - Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Awwwwwww dammit! I missed the F at the start

I'm confused tho.. there's C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B Major Scales only in tuxguitar (it's like guitar pro)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

That's weird. The people who designed the program may not have had an educated background in music theory, because this is what A# major looks like: A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx

And this is where it comes in handy to know all that business about enharmonic notes. These are all enharmonic:

C# - Db
D# - Eb
E - Fb
E# - F
F# - Gb
G# - Ab
A# - Bb
B - Cb
B# - C



So, take that same A# major scale...

A# B# Cx D# E# Fx Gx

...and convert it to its enharmonic equivalent...

Bb C D Eb F G A

Isn't that so much nicer?


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Why is A# a Bb but a B# a C?  I'm confused again xD

Shud it not be a Cb?


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## HammerAndSickle (Aug 24, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> Why is A# a Bb but a B# a C?  I'm confused again xD
> 
> Shud it not be a Cb?



Just the way tonality developed. B is a half step from C, just like E is a half step from F.

Most of the time you have C C#/Db D. Two 'white keys' with a black key in between. But look on a piano keyboard, and the only time you have two white keys with no black in between, it's either B and C or E and F.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Got it!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 24, 2009)

Assuming you understand all this, there's just a little bit left regarding keys. Remember when I was talking about relative major/minor keys? "Relative" means that they contain the same notes. Like D major and B minor:

D major: D E F# G A B C#
B minor: B C# D E F# G A

Well, there's another class of key relation: parallel keys. "Parallel" means that the keys have the same tonic note. An example is C major and C minor:

C major: C D E F G A B
C minor: C D Eb F G Ab Bb

Or G:

G major: G A B C D E F#
G minor: G A Bb C D Eb F

Make sense?


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 24, 2009)

Yup simplez parallel 

So is that all the chromatic circle of fifths learnt, all I need to know now is the diatonic?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 25, 2009)

Yes, let's move on to the diatonic circle. First, we need to have an understanding of chords as they relate to a scale - for starters, we're going to harmonize a major scale. What this means is that we're building chords off of every note within the scale. This requires a basic understanding of intervals.

E major: E F# G# A B C# D#

The way we harmonize is by stacking diatonic (within the key) thirds on top of each other. E to F# is a second. E to G# is a third. E to A is a fourth, E to B is a fifth, and so on. The chords we'll be making are called "triads", which contain three notes. We talked about this concept in another thread, but I don't know if it stuck or not. All we do is skip every other note to get a chord. So, here are the triads we get from E major:

E - E G# B
F#m - F# A C#
G#m - G# B D#
A - A C# E
B - B D# F#
C#m - C# E G#
D#dim - D# F# A

Now, if you remember what I told you from that other thread, this pattern of major, minor and diminished chords is repeated with every major scale, and we can therefore make a statement about this pattern. If we represent a scale's chords with roman numerals corresponding to each scale degree, we get this:

I ii iii IV V vi vii°

I IV and V (all capital) are major, ii iii and vi (all lowercase) are minor, and vii° is diminished. Here's E major again:

E F#m G#m A B C#m D#dim

If we assign numerals, it matches up.

I = E
ii = F#m
iii = G#m
IV = A
V = B
vi = C#m
vii° = D#dim

I had a hard time imagining how I would explain this, so I think the best thing I can do is give you a couple of tables and chip away at this concept bit by bit. Here are the chords of every major key:










This is a diatonic circle of fifths progression with substitutions:





The idea behind this is that progressions are made by going to some chord in the scale and getting back to I.
Examples:
I IV V I
I ii V I
I vi IV V I (I never need to hear this one again)
I ii I V vi ii V I

There are two ways to end a progression, according to this concept: IV I or V I (also, vii° I, but we group that in with V I). Whenever you land on a I chord, it is called a "cadence". I'll talk about those if you get everything so far.


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## lnname (Aug 25, 2009)

SchecterWhore pretty much said everything that needs to be said about the theory on the diatonic circle. 

The big question with both circles is what to use them for. Because progressing 1 5 2 6 etc or 1 4 7 3 (forwards or backwards in 5ths) sounds very calming its often used at the end of chromatic sections to re-establish cadence or harmony. Alternatively its used a lot in simple pop music as its catchy and bright- as a result given the right rhythm and harmonies it can make a nice bridge or chorus that will give a piece of metal some emotional variety.

if i remember correctly the testament song over the wall uses a variant of one of these progressions right after the solo, before reprising the riff from the beggining of the song


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 26, 2009)

Ah, just seen the post xD but I gotta go to belfast, mates gettin a new guitar im comin with him xD shall read later! thanks schecterwhore AGAIN


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 26, 2009)

No problem, dude.

In case you're not clear on how a chord is constructed, I'll show you now. You know that a chord is built from stacking thirds. What kind of thirds they are determines the quality of the chord. So far, I've only talked about generic intervals, which is to say second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, etc. There are qualities attached to these intervals that can tell you much more about them, though. They are divided into the "major/minor" intervals, and the "perfect" intervals. 

You probably already know a couple of these. I'll explain them in terms of semitones, and tab them out.

First, we'll start with the perfect intervals. These are the fourth, the fifth, and the octave. We call these perfect, because they do not affect the quality of a chord. For example, E (E G# B) and Em (E G B) both contain a perfect fifth (B is a fifth away from the root, E), but the tone that decides whether the chord is major or minor is the third. 

A perfect fourth is five semitones, like A to D:

```
e-
b-
G-
D-
A-0-5
E-
```

The perfect fifth is seven semitones, like A to E:

```
e-
b-
G-
D-
A-0-7
E-
```

The octave is twelve semitones, and is where a scale starts over, say from A to A:

```
e-
b-
G-
D-
A-0-12
E-
```

The perfect intervals can be lowered by a semitone to get a diminished interval, or raised by a semitone to get an augmented interval. The most famous examples are the augmented fourth and diminished fifth, which are known as "tritones" - an augmented fourth and diminished fifth are enharmonic. You will rarely see a diminished fourth or augmented/diminished octaves, but augmented fifths play a role in augmented chords. Here are two examples of chords that use intervals like this:
E diminished - E G Bb (diminished fifth between E and Bb)

```
e-6
b-8
G-9
D-
A-
E-
```
And E augmented - E G# B# (augmented fifth between E and B#)

```
e-8
b-9
G-9
D-
A-
E-
```

When a perfect interval is made diminished or augmented, it colors the chord.

In short, here's a perfect fourth: E-A
Augmented fourth: E-A#
Diminished fourth (rarely seen as a fourth, enharmonic to a major third): E-Ab

Perfect fifth: E-B
Augmented fifth: E-B#
Diminished fifth: E-Bb

The major/minor intervals are the second, third, sixth, and seventh. They're called major/minor because they give a quality to the chord. A minor interval is one semitone lower than a major interval.

Here are the two kinds of seconds:
Major second, or a whole tone, is two semitones, like G to A:

```
E-3-5
```

Minor second, or a semitone, is, well, a semitone, like G to Ab:

```
E-3-4
```

Major thirds are 4 semitones, ex. G-B

```
E-3-7
```

Minor thirds are three semitones, ex. G-Bb

```
E-3-6
```

Major sixths are nine semitones, ex. G-E

```
E-3-12
```

Minor sixths are eight semitones, ex. G-Eb

```
E-3-11
```
Notice that the minor sixth is enharmonic to an augmented fifth (which would be G-D#, in this instance).

Major sevenths are eleven semitones, ex. G-F#

```
E-3-14
```

Minor sevenths are ten semitones, ex. G-F

```
E-3-13
```

With this information, you can identify and build chords with any quality you want. Major chords consist of a root, major third, and perfect fifth, for example. Some people notate this formula as 1 3 5.

Minor chords, by that virtue, contain a root, minor third, and perfect fifth, and the formula would be 1 b3 5.

A diminished chord, then, has a root, minor third, and diminished fifth, or 1 b3 b5. Augmented chords have a major third and augmented fifth, or 1 3 #5.


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## DeathMetalDean (Aug 27, 2009)

I think I understood all the roman numeral stuff  but what about the minors?

& Why does the diminished chord only have one semitone down in 1 note (Bb) but the augmented has 2 notes a semitone higher? (G#&B#)

E diminished - E G Bb (diminished fifth between E and Bb)
And E augmented - E G# B# (augmented fifth between E and B#)

Thanks


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Aug 27, 2009)

Augmented chords are not diatonic chords, so they don't appear within any given key, but... well, I'll put it this way: you can construct any triad with two thirds.

Here's A: A C# E
A-C# is a major third.
C#-E is a minor third.

Am: A C E
A-C is a minor third.
C-E is a major third.

Adim: A C Eb
A-C is a minor third.
C-Eb is a minor third.

A+ (augmented): A C# E#
A-C# is a major third.
C#-E# is a major third.

You see, by having both a major and minor third in a chord, you end up with a perfect fifth, but if you stack two minor thirds or two major thirds, the fifth changes. This is really the way that Western theorists for the past four hundred years have approached chords. The sonority is achieved by stacking thirds rather than considering the third and fifth separately. It would be strange to see a chord notated as G B Db (a major third and diminished fifth), and G Bb D# (minor third, augmented fifth) would be stranger still, as this is enharmonic to a first inversion Eb chord (Eb G Bb).

So, just consider chord construction to be a system of stacking major and minor thirds.




For minor keys, this is the progression, but there's a little trick to it:




Notice that there is a V chord, and a vii° chord. This is a result of using the harmonic minor scale. Here's a regular A minor scale:
A B C D E F G
If harmonized, the chords of this key would be Am B° C Dm Em F G, which, in Roman numerals, is i ii° III iv v VI VII. However, the cadence is stronger if the fifth chord is major, and the seventh chord is diminished. This is done by raising the "leading tone", or seventh note of the scale. Check it out:
A B C D E F G#

Now, instead of having v be E G B, it becomes V, E G# B, and instead of VII being G B D, it becomes vii°, G# B D. That G# is only a semitone away from A, now, and wants to pull into the i chord. Harmonized, this is what the harmonic scale looks like:
i ii° III+ iv V VI vii°

(In A harmonic minor: Am B° C+ Dm E F G#°)

The III+ chord is not used, because it is not a very strong chord. Just the V and vii° are borrowed when writing in the minor mode. When put together, the modal mixture looks like this:
i ii° III iv V VI vii°

You'll also see, way over on the left, that VII is used to go to III. The use of the natural VII chord is retained, but it doesn't lead to i.


Many rock songs use the VII chord, but it is not so common in classical music and art music, as the function of chords in classical music is dissonance and resolution, but rock music is highly modal, and the chords frequently serve the melody rather than the key.


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## DeathMetalDean (Sep 2, 2009)

I think I get it..  not sure though


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 3, 2009)

Let's check. Here's G minor. Write out G harmonic minor, and harmonize it:
G A Bb C D Eb F

Then, tell me the iv chord in F minor.


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## DeathMetalDean (Sep 3, 2009)

is it...
I = G Bb D
ii = A C Eb
iii = Bb D F
IV = C Eb G
V = D F A
vi = Eb G Bb
vii°= F G Bb

D: im very confused now argh..
and yeah im totally confused on the iv chord in Fminor 
Bb..? Looked at the diagram ya made.

How do I know the names of the chords like... G Bb D or A C Eb


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 3, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> is it...
> I = G Bb D
> ii = A C Eb
> iii = Bb D F
> ...


Pretty good. You get the concept of harmonization. Just a few things. Remember the minor scales have different numerals: i ii° III iv V VI vii°

What you have written is the natural minor, however, and the harmonization for that is different, still: i ii° III iv v VI VII.
i = G Bb D
ii° = A C Eb
III = Bb D F
iv = C Eb G
v = D F A
VI = Eb G Bb
VII = F Ab Cb

Here is G natural minor: G A Bb C D Eb F
Here is G harmonic minor: G A Bb C D Eb F#

F# is what is called a "leading tone", so called because it "leads" back to the tonic of the key.

The harmonic minor alters three of the chords in minor keys, but we only use two of them. Notice where I change F to F#:
i = G Bb D
ii° = A C Eb
III = Bb D F
iv = C Eb G
V = D F# A
VI = Eb G Bb
vii° = F# A C



The Roman numeral is determined by where the root of the chord is in relation to the tonic of the scale. Whether they're capital, lowercase, or have a ° depends on whether the chord is major, minor, or diminished. Which brings me to your question...



> D: im very confused now argh..
> and yeah im totally confused on the iv chord in Fminor
> Bb..? Looked at the diagram ya made.
> 
> How do I know the names of the chords like... G Bb D or A C Eb



There's a few ways of thinking about chords. Try this: figure out what the third and fifth of every chord is. If you have D, the triad is going to look like this:
D F# A

D minor is similar, but the third is lowered:
D F A

D diminished has the fifth lowered from that:
D F Ab

Here's with Bb:
Bb: Bb D F
Bbm: Bb Db F
Bb°: Bb Db Fb

With E:
E: E G# B
Em: E G B
E°: E G Bb


If you know each major chord, then you can derive each minor and diminished chord from that.

So, in response to finding iv of F minor, this is what I would do.
First, write out F minor:

F G Ab Bb C Db Eb

Make the adjustments for harmonic minor:

F G Ab Bb C Db E

Harmonize:
Fm = F Ab C = i
G° = G Bb Db = ii°
Ab = Ab C Eb = III
Bbm = Bb Db F = iv
C = C E G = V
Db = Db F Ab = VI
E° = E G Bb = vii°

So, you were close, iv of F minor is a chord on Bb, but it is Bbm.

Learn each major chord. Then, this formula will help you find the other ones:
Major - 1 3 5
Minor 1 b3 5
Diminished - 1 b3 b5

(Note: "b" here means to lower the pitch by one semitone, not necessarily that the note is flat. For instance, F#m is F# A C#, where the b3 is A.)


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## DeathMetalDean (Sep 4, 2009)

What's Bb° and E°? & Where can I learn each major chord?


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 4, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> What's Bb° and E°? & Where can I learn each major chord?


Here are all the major chords:
G# - G# B# D#
Ab - Ab C Eb
A - A C# E
Bb - Bb D F
B - B D# F#
Cb - Cb Eb Gb
C - C E G
C# - C# E# G#
Db - Db F Ab
D - D F# A
Eb - Eb G Bb
E - E G# B
F - F A C
F# - F# A# C#
Gb - Gb Bb Db
G - G B D

The colors mean those two chords are enharmonic. I have excluded chords that contain a double sharp or double flat.

° is the symbol for a diminished chord. It means the chord has a minor third and a diminished fifth.

If you copy that chart out, and make two more in which you make them into minor chords and diminished chords, you'll be all set.


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## DeathMetalDean (Sep 4, 2009)

xD You're the most helpful person everrrrrrrrr 
so to change G into a minor it would be... G Bb D? and to a diminished it would be... G Bb Db?
then to change Gb into a minor it would be.. Gb Bbb (A?) Db and then diminished would be.. G Bbb (A?) Dbb (C?)


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 5, 2009)

DeathMetalDean said:


> xD You're the most helpful person everrrrrrrrr
> so to change G into a minor it would be... G Bb D? and to a diminished it would be... G Bb Db?
> then to change Gb into a minor it would be.. Gb Bbb (A?) Db and then diminished would be.. G Bbb (A?) Dbb (C?)



You got it, dude. You forgot to make that last one a Gb, but I think that's just a typo. And, yes, it's Gb Bbb Dbb. Looks weird, I know, but it's correct. If you spell it enharmonically as F#°, you get F# A C.


Want to talk about seventh chords now?


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## DeathMetalDean (Sep 5, 2009)

okay  Think I'm gonna write most of this stuff out somewhere lmao xD but yea seventh chords, this shud be a sticky or something! xD so much info


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Sep 5, 2009)

Now that you have this stuff down, seventh chords should be pretty easy. All you do is take the regular triad, and add another third on top of it. Say you wanted to make DM7 (D major 7, a major triad with a major seventh on top of it). Here is your formula: 1 3 5 7; root, major third, perfect fifth, major seventh.
D F# A C#

The other one that you might get confused with is D7. Its formula is 1 3 5 b7. This is often called a dominant seventh, or a major/minor seventh (major chord with minor seventh on top).
D F# A C

The way that I think about these is that the major seventh is a semitone away from the tonic (C#-D), and the minor seventh is a whole tone away (C-D).

Minor seventh chords are 1 b3 5 b7. Dm7 = D F A C. Minor chord with a minor seventh on top.

You'll seldom see a minor/major seventh, as they are not diatonic, but I'll bring them up, anyway. They're sometimes used in jazz. The formula is 1 b3 5 7, and consists of a minor chord with a major seventh on top. Dm/M7 = D F A C#.

That leaves the diminished chords. There are two kinds, the half diminished, and the fully diminished. Half diminished is 1 b3 b5 b7, a diminished chord with a minor seventh on top. In jazz, they call these m7/b5 chords (minor-seven flat-five), because they sound more like a minor seventh chord than a diminished chord. The symbol for half diminished chords is ø7. So, Dø7 is D F Ab C.

Fully diminished is a bit different. It is a diminished chord with a diminished seventh on top. That's a minor seventh lowered by a semitone. The formula is 1 b3 b5 bb7. the symbol is °7, as in D°7 = D F Ab Cb.

An interesting note about fully diminished chords, they are constructed entirely out of minor thirds, have two tritones, and are sometimes considered to be rootless. They are also the source of a lot of arpeggios in metal music:

```
e-8-11-14
b-7-10
G-5-8
D-4-7
A-3-6
E-2-5
```

So, to review, here are the seventh chords:
M7 - 1 3 5 7
7 - 1 3 5 b7
m7 - 1 b3 5 b7
m/M7 - 1 b3 5 7
ø7 - 1 b3 b5 b7
°7 - 1 b3 b5 bb7

Examples:
GM7 - G B D F#
G7 - G B D F
Gm7 - G Bb D F
Gm/M7 - G Bb D F#
Gø7 - G Bb Db F
G°7 - G Bb Db Fb



If you harmonize a major scale with seventh chords, you get this:
IM7 ii7 iii7 IVM7 V7 vi7 viiø7



Minor scales are a bit weird, because of the harmonic minor. This is the way they're typically done:
i7 iiø7 IIIM7 iv7 V7 VIM7 vii°7

Occasionally, i will be iM7, because of the raised seventh in harmonic minor, but this is very rare. m/M7 chords are typically used as "color chords", outside of the context of a key.


----------

