# Rings of Saturn's lead guitarist (Lucas Mann) crowdfunding for solo album!



## The Omega Cluster (Sep 29, 2013)

The project sounds quite jazzy, with hints of AAS and maybe STS throughout. Theres a playthrough of a demo song on the indiegogo website! Check this out!

Lucas Mann Solo Album | Indiegogo


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## Joshua (Sep 29, 2013)

I'm impressed. If I wasn't broke I'd throw some money at this. Hoping he reaches his goal 'cause I'd really like to hear a full album of this.


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## brutalwizard (Sep 29, 2013)

I hate to be that guy about this. 

But $20,000?? 150$ for a guitar lesson?

I bet he could do a decent bedroom recording, With an engineer, a drum programmer, and someone to mix/master for like 1-4000$


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## Captain Butterscotch (Sep 29, 2013)

brutalwizard said:


> I hate to be that guy about this.
> 
> But $20,000?? 150$ for a guitar lesson?
> 
> I bet he could do a decent bedroom recording, With an engineer, a drum programmer, and someone to mix/master for like 1-4000$



I'd like to quote this for truthiness. Aim high, I guess.


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## Danukenator (Sep 29, 2013)

Wasn't the Etherial he received full of issues that made it unusable? It seems like he is offering the one he current has for the $3000 perk.


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## spawnofthesith (Sep 29, 2013)

That track is pretty badass, not what I was expecting at all


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## Blasphemer (Sep 29, 2013)

20 grand and he cant even record actual guitar for the video?

Yeah, no thanks.


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## DVRP (Sep 29, 2013)

The clean stuff sounds like guitar pro audio. And his breakdown of expenses is laugh worthy.


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## Nats (Sep 29, 2013)

Anyone have his address? I am going to send him a check for all 20k. Actually I'll give him some extra because 20k just isn't enough for a bedroom solo album.


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## fps (Sep 29, 2013)

He's a top quality guitarist, no doubt, and that sounded great, will the people decide $20k is too steep? Very interested to see how it pans out, this is a very new area after all.


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 29, 2013)

LOL, Good music but this is just stupid. 20k? 5k would probably be MUCH more realistic man.

Honestly, I'm going to start recording music once I get my Axe FX 2 and it's still 2.2k for an Axe. A couple hundred for Superior Drummer and a couple cool sound packs, less than 1k for a great Custom Recording PC, and a couple hundred for a good guitar to record with and some monitors. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit the goal if Rings of Saturn starts advertising the campaign on their Facebook page. But this is pretty bad, and the Etherial Perk is pretty ....ed up to do if it's full of flaws, but I guess that's another way to sell of shitty gear.


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## abandonist (Sep 29, 2013)

20k for a bedroom record. 

Greedy little shit.


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## Maniacal (Sep 29, 2013)

Is this the cleanest guitar player on the planet? Or is he using plugins throughout the video?


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## The Omega Cluster (Sep 29, 2013)

I agree with all of you that 20k is friggin lots. How much did it cost them for the RoS album, just for comparison? I'd bet under 5 or 10k.

Kinda reminds me of the PTH crowdfunding campaign, which was also really high, how much was it? like 350k?


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## kylendm (Sep 29, 2013)

Too clean to be actual playing in the video.


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## Maggai (Sep 29, 2013)

Yeah that video is not him playing, as someone else mentioned, sounds like guitar pro midi sounds. That's pretty ....ed up if you ask me. Ask for that much money and not even making a real play through video?`



Seems fishy as ..... Song sounds nice though, need to hear him actually playing it though.


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## fps (Sep 29, 2013)

In his defence, these people saying "Well I've got an Axe FX so that's pretty much it he can get the same and can crank out a solo album" don't seem to understand he's a professional musician, with certain standards, and doesn't think it's worth doing if it isn't done to a certain (his own) standard, no offence to the bedroom producers here. Some of that money is probably to keep food on his plate while he writes the rest of the album too, you know? And to pay the drummer. 

Ultimately, if he raises the money, he's worth it! As for the guitar pro files, yeah that was really weird, and basically not forgiveable I feel!


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 29, 2013)

fps said:


> In his defence, these people saying "Well I've got an Axe FX so that's pretty much it he can get the same and can crank out a solo album" don't seem to understand he's a professional musician, with certain standards, and doesn't think it's worth doing if it isn't done to a certain (his own) standard, no offence to the bedroom producers here. Some of that money is probably to keep food on his plate while he writes the rest of the album too, you know? And to pay the drummer.
> 
> Ultimately, if he raises the money, he's worth it! As for the guitar pro files, yeah that was really weird, and basically not forgiveable I feel!



No offense, but crowdsourcing isn't to feed and keep the people who are asking alive and well fed. They're funding a project with an end goal, the reason Protest the Hero exceeded their amount is simply because of their extensive fanbase and because you're basically pre ordering merch and a CD. And whatever else they listed as the perks at the time, sorry but this line of thinking isn't appropriate.

And I'm not saying that it's THAT easy, I'm just saying it costs nowhere near as much as he's asking for. 10,000 for Producing and Mastering? Sorry but that's absurd. What I meant by my comment, is that you can work at it yourself and create an excellent end product using just those tools at that amount of money. People have done it before and created excellent music with amazing production using that method. Using a studio and a renowned producer is amazing also, but for a guy who basically made a playthrough video over his song written in Guitar Pro, it's grossly unnecessary.

Their excuse on RoS's Facebook is that both their albums individually cost close to 10k each to Produce and Master.


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## Maniacal (Sep 29, 2013)

In his defence, I can see why he would need $20,000. 

Writing, recording and producing album - $5000

8 week world cruise - $15,000

Almost forgot, Guitar Pro 6 to play all his guitar parts for him - $60

Grand total - $20,060


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## spawnofthesith (Sep 29, 2013)

Crowdsourcing + Rings of Saturn all in one thread, why am I not surprised at all the webrage? 


Also, the cleans sound like a million other bands with Axe Fx's clean tones to me, not guitar pro files -shrug-


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## The Omega Cluster (Sep 29, 2013)

Before anyone says it :

"I bet he recorded at half speed"


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## anomynous (Sep 29, 2013)

Lucas Mann solo album?


So Rings of Saturn?


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## WhiteWalls (Sep 29, 2013)

I laughed out loud at 1:27.


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## DVRP (Sep 29, 2013)

You can't argue the food thing, he didn't put it in the expenses like Protest did. Protest is an example of a professional, and well done campaign.

And the dead give away that it's recorded at half speed is the pick attack. Regardless of what he did to get the sound in the video, he is clearly miming the performance.


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## Erockomania (Sep 29, 2013)

If the other albums cost $10k+ to produce then they either took an inordinate amount of time tracking the CD or they went to the wrong studio as the quality is mediocre at best. It's something most average bedroom guys can get done with the same or better quality for a fraction of the cost. 10 years ago, this would be an appropriate budget. 20 years ago it would be a drop in the bucket. Times have changed.


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## IAMLORDVADER (Sep 29, 2013)

I'd record it for 2 grand, although that video......


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## RevelGTR (Sep 29, 2013)

1:27 doesn't look... err... actual?


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## fps (Sep 29, 2013)

Jonathan20022 said:


> No offense, but crowdsourcing isn't to feed and keep the people who are asking alive and well fed. They're funding a project with an end goal, the reason Protest the Hero exceeded their amount is simply because of their extensive fanbase and because you're basically pre ordering merch and a CD. And whatever else they listed as the perks at the time, sorry but this line of thinking isn't appropriate.
> 
> And I'm not saying that it's THAT easy, I'm just saying it costs nowhere near as much as he's asking for. 10,000 for Producing and Mastering? Sorry but that's absurd. What I meant by my comment, is that you can work at it yourself and create an excellent end product using just those tools at that amount of money. People have done it before and created excellent music with amazing production using that method. Using a studio and a renowned producer is amazing also, but for a guy who basically made a playthrough video over his song written in Guitar Pro, it's grossly unnecessary.
> 
> Their excuse on RoS's Facebook is that both their albums individually cost close to 10k each to Produce and Master.



While I take your points, I think as a pro musician he's asking for enough money to pay the bills while he devotes his attention to writing the album, if not, hey who cares, it's about whether he has enough people who are prepared to buy the CD or not. But crowd sourcing is not JUST about funding a project with an end goal, it's about being able to produce that end goal, and for musicians it's also about making a bit of money out of their endeavour, because this is, after all, what they do for a living.


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## Erockomania (Sep 29, 2013)

fps said:


> While I take your points, I think as a pro musician he's asking for enough money to pay the bills while he devotes his attention to writing the album, if not, hey who cares, it's about whether he has enough people who are prepared to buy the CD or not. But crowd sourcing is not JUST about funding a project with an end goal, it's about being able to produce that end goal, and for musicians it's also about making a bit of money out of their endeavour, because this is, after all, what they do for a living.



Valid points, but he should have broken it down that way then. A living expenses line rather than "rolling the costs in". IF you're going to do this type of funding for an album, you have to be upfront about it or crowdfunding will start to lose traction due to abuse.


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## Jonathan20022 (Sep 29, 2013)

fps said:


> While I take your points, I think as a pro musician he's asking for enough money to pay the bills while he devotes his attention to writing the album, if not, hey who cares, it's about whether he has enough people who are prepared to buy the CD or not. But crowd sourcing is not JUST about funding a project with an end goal, it's about being able to produce that end goal, and for musicians it's also about making a bit of money out of their endeavour, because this is, after all, what they do for a living.



I understand your point, but most people would probably look at it and say why am I paying for his lifestyle and helping him maintain it? Most artists work jobs whenever they're on tour so they can live the way they do, until their music begins opening more doors for them to live off of it solely.

If he at least broke that down in the description I guess it wouldn't be enough of a gripe for me. But it still seems like too much money. We'll see how it pans out.


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 29, 2013)

1:27 

The clean stuff does sound really good though! It reminds me of old Amiga/Dosbox point and click games. Feeling Nostalgic now.


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## Zerox8610 (Sep 29, 2013)

I love Lucas' playing, and at least he's trying. Donated.

We live in a time where most artists, including yourselves, use fake drums and pre-recorded instruments/samples for their music, yet we still complain when someone uses EMGs and tries something different from the average metal album.


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## Danukenator (Sep 29, 2013)

Ah...he's clearly using GP in that video. Shit, it would have been nice to put an actual play through video. He has other videos where he doesn't do that, so it's a tad baffling.


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## straightshreddd (Sep 29, 2013)

Goddamn, Lucas and RoS will never get a break, will they. 

Ya know, you don't have to instantly hate everything that's different and proficient. Broaden your horizons, dudes. There's other music out there besides djent. Just sayin'.


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## RevelGTR (Sep 29, 2013)

They guy is actually pretty talented it seems, he's just done some slightly odd stuff. Rings of Saturn really doesn't sound like music to me, and I can sit and listen to Nile for hours at a time! Best of luck to him though. I'm not really sure why a $2500 donation gets you the stuff that DIDN'T make the album though.


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## Necris (Sep 29, 2013)

The girl walking by in the background at 1:33 seems about as interested in the music as I am.


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## WhiteWalls (Sep 29, 2013)

fps said:


> While I take your points, I think as a pro musician he's asking for enough money to pay the bills while he devotes his attention to writing the album


This is in my opinion one of the pitfalls of crowdfunding. It should be used to finance something that is already completed and the only thing missing is the cash to put it in production.

Most of the successful crowdfundings in other areas start with "I had this amazing idea, I tested it and it works, I have the prototypes, and now I need *insert amount of cash* to mass produce it so everyone can have access to it", not with "I have an idea for something and who knows what will happen, but it costs me nothing to put a crowdfunding up so if it goes well I'll get way more money than I need and I won't worry too much about the quality of the final product".


/rant 

@straightshred: nobody complained about the style (or even the quality) of the music being played, the problem is that he's making it look like he's playing guitar while there's very obviously a guitar pro track (or something similar) over it.


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## Blasphemer (Sep 29, 2013)

straightshreddd said:


> Ya know, you don't have to instantly hate everything that's different and proficient. Broaden your horizons, dudes. There's other music out there besides djent. Just sayin'.



I don't think anybody is really hating on the music. Personally, I think the song is pretty cool. What people are complaining about, though, is

A. The $20,000 pricetag for a solo album. That is a LOT of money for an album, and it could definitely be made for a fraction of that

B. The fact that he's using MIDI in the video, and not actually playing any of the music 

C. How fake that riff at 1:27 was


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## abandonist (Sep 29, 2013)

This is definitely Old Man Bullshit, but in the 90's we could get a record done at a studio for under $1,000. 

Hell, I know records you all listen to that were recorded at Morrisound for half what this kid wants for his solo debut.

In the FB comments he even addresses the recording cost by saying he wants to go to an ultra high end studio to do it. Well, you little shit, how about you just don't do that? You're the guitar player for a death metal band. Ultra High End is not something you're just "entitled" to have. Get some goddamn perspective...


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## Necris (Sep 29, 2013)

I find it amusing that if the goal isn't met he won't even bother recording the album, stuff like that reeks of douchebaggery. "I want to record a solo album, but only if you give me $20,000 first, otherwise it's not happening."


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## Xiphos68 (Sep 29, 2013)

Tony Macalpine, Ron Jarzombek and Greg Howe charge 60-75$ for one lesson. 

This guy and Andy Wood are charging 100$-150$? 

Legends verses really good players?


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## Zerox8610 (Sep 29, 2013)

If you don't like it, don't listen to it.

No one is saying you have to contribute.


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## edsped (Sep 29, 2013)

straightshreddd said:


> Goddamn, Lucas and RoS will never get a break, will they.
> 
> Ya know, you don't have to instantly hate everything that's different and proficient. Broaden your horizons, dudes. There's other music out there besides djent. Just sayin'.



I'm still trying to figure out this post.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Sep 30, 2013)

Nothing against him or RoS at all, but I admit playing thru midi isn't exactly good advertising. Song sounds interesting anyway


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## MobiusR (Sep 30, 2013)

Maybe he wants to do CD and press releases etc etc


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## Dan (Sep 30, 2013)

Lucas Mann said:


> Here is an outline of the funds needed for the project,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Nats (Sep 30, 2013)

If this idiot reaches his goal I'm goin to crowd fund everything I buy from now on.


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## Pezshreds (Sep 30, 2013)

I think part of the $20,000 is going towards getting bigger inlays


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## Pat_tct (Sep 30, 2013)

bring it on: I am actually a fan of his playing. especially in this style.
i would love to hear a full album of this.

The video is not a live play-through... i don't care. the track sounds good nontheless.

I only care for the result. if he tracks it at half speed or not is not relevant for the album if i can enjoy it.


but yes 20k is too much i think. but on the other hand i don't know the exact expenses on how much the studio is and all that...

i would love to hear more of this.


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## MaxSwagger (Sep 30, 2013)

The song itself is kinda cool. That first melody is catchy as hell. I just can't see him being able to perform this live(without an ipod). I remember that dude couldn't play for turds when I saw him a year or so ago, so it came to no surprise to me when all the shit blew up that ROS was basically a Guitar Pro cover band a few weeks after their last album was released. Homie needs to learn to write with guitar picks, not mouse clicks. Not saying the dude sucks at guitar at all, clearly the ability is there. Just not at 9000bpm. I just don't understand why some bands would want to write music that they can barely/can't play live.


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## Hyacinth (Sep 30, 2013)

I'm not going to waste time echoing what everyone else has said here, so I'll paraphrase.

RoS guitarist? Dude can't even play his own sh_i_t.
Cool song
Midi playthrough?
1:27
$20,000?!

Recording some parts at half speed is one thing, recording the whole thing half speed then insisting it was played at speed is totally different. Dude's got skill, I just wish he weren't such a shady bitch about everything I've ever seen him associated with.


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## Pat_tct (Sep 30, 2013)

does it make a different if he can pull it off live? this is a solo project and the material will most likely not played live.

is there proof that he recorded the entire album at half speed? does anyone on here heard the raw tracking files or what?

it's just hearsay i believe.
and as i said. as long as i can enjoy the record at home, i don't give a damn what tricks he used...

and what is about the part at 1:27?
it's fast. nothing he didn't play before in terms of speed.

and why wouldn't you write stuff that you can't play (yet). set yourself some gaols and push your limits. that why some write stuff they can't play.

BoO did this all the time. tap out riffs in guitar pro and then learn them afterwards.
nothing wrong with it imo


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## abandonist (Sep 30, 2013)

imo there is something wrong with it.

There you have it.

Dissent!


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## breadtruck (Sep 30, 2013)

Holy crap, $20k??? This guy is optimistic lol. Don't get me wrong he's a great player and I'd be interested in hearing more, but I would have a lot more respect for him if he just recorded this album with the gear he already owns. He can always re-do it in the future if he has the money and wants better quality, but to just come straight out and ask for $20k for his bedroom project seems totally ridiculous. The only way this will ever get close to funded is if a RoS superfan wins the lottery and can afford to drop $20k like it's nothing.

It almost seems kinda arrogant that he's like "well my album is worth $20k and deserves the best quality money can buy otherwise FORGET IT"

Also, I know everyone is laughing at the big costs he listed, but what about $1000 for album art??? Why stop there Lucas you might as well increase the goal by a couple million and buy the Mona Lisa to use as a cover.


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## Pat_tct (Sep 30, 2013)

1000 bucks for the art is ok i think. you will get the cover art, which alone can be 200-300 bucks depending on who made it. and he will probably get a full booklet design.

8 pages and a couple designs.
plus: what makes the price high here is the option you choose with the artist. the more options you get from the artist to choose from, the more you pay. (seeing that if you ask the artist to change something he will spend another couple hours working on the design)

so that is the least point were i would argue the 20k he wants to have.


and does it say bedroom project? did i overlooked it? or is he doing all the recording in a studio with an engineer?


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## themike (Sep 30, 2013)

> Grand Total $20,000. If the funds aren't raised in 60 days, all contributions are automatically returned and the album will not be made.



What ever happened to people doing whatever it takes to play music? I back Kickstarter and think its a great way to cut out the middlemen in an unfair market, BUT, if you dont make your goal you're going to just not record the album? If I thought I had an album worth of great material I'd scrape together 2k and record with a local engineer/studio or hell, I'd even record it myself using Toontrack and whatever gear I owned. Anything would be better than just giving up


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## Pat_tct (Sep 30, 2013)

^ valid point


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## abandonist (Sep 30, 2013)

That's not how you get a sneakers endorsement, man.

This kid just reeks of jack-off - and I don't mind Rings of Saturn!

If I met him, I'm sure I'd end up punching his fricking face in.


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## MaxSwagger (Sep 30, 2013)

themike said:


> What ever happened to people doing whatever it takes to play music? I back Kickstarter and think its a great way to cut out the middlemen in an unfair market, BUT, if you dont make your goal you're going to just not record the album? If I thought I had an album worth of great material I'd scrape together 2k and record with a local engineer/studio or hell, I'd even record it myself using Toontrack and whatever gear I owned. Anything would be better than just giving up




Yeah, when I read this, "Grand Total $20,000. If the funds aren't raised in 60 days, all contributions are automatically returned and the album will not be made.", I about falcon punched my laptop. I mean damn, it's like he thinks it's a privilege for people to listen to his "music", and if they don't help they aren't worthy.


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## davidengel (Sep 30, 2013)

The dude doesn't need $20k or a shit load of time in a "high-end" recording studio to put out a great product. Seems like he has everything already GuitarPro'd out, all he'd have to do is set up the DAW session following the time-signatures and tempos, import MIDI drum tracks, track guitar and bass DI, spend 10-14 days in the studio to record drums and re-amp guitar and bass tracks, then editing, mixing, and mastering.

.... this guy, he can do it for $5000-$8000, ending with a professional sounding product.


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## DarkWolfXV (Sep 30, 2013)

Guys, you are funny. I can remember people here protecting PTH and their ridiculous 200k goal, and now you diss someone with a far lower goal. I guess it takes a long time for you to finally realize that you dont need even 20k for an album. 1k for artwork? ....ing seriously? I know a site where you can get an 8 page CD album with CD label and outside tray done for 200$. Or six panel digipack with CD label and outside tray for the same price. You can get an album done reamp, mix, master for 4k or even less. You can record all the DI's at home, and mr. Lucas Mann will probably record everything note-by-note anyway so he doesn't need a studio for that. 2.5k for session drumming? No thank you, unless its a 2 hour album...


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## WhiteWalls (Sep 30, 2013)

Protest the hero's 200k goal was super high too in my opinion, but at least they are a WAY bigger band and they released amazing albums in the past, so if such a band says "we want to record in a huge studio to get a terrific sounding record", I can totally understand that.
They were also very meticulous and clear in explaining where the money went and more importantly, WHY they were doing a kickstarter (label issues and their desire to have more control over the band itself).
The fact that they're also very chill dudes who don't take themselves too seriously certainly makes you more inclined to "invest" money in their project.


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## The Omega Cluster (Sep 30, 2013)

davidengel said:


> The dude doesn't need $20k or a shit load of time in a "high-end" recording studio to put out a great product. Seems like he has everything already GuitarPro'd out, all he'd have to do is set up the DAW session following the time-signatures and tempos, import MIDI drum tracks, track guitar and bass DI, spend 10-14 days in the studio to record drums and re-amp guitar and bass tracks, then editing, mixing, and mastering.
> 
> .... this guy, he can do it for $5000-$8000, ending with a professional sounding product.



That's like saying: "Why did you buy a Ferrari? You could've bought a Dodge or Chrysler (any generic low-price car manufacturer), and it will take you to the same place, at the same speed (you won't go 200mph on a public road just because your car can). This will cost you only 20-30k$ instead of 150k$"

I'm not taking his defence or anything, I too find the 20k$ ridiculously high (but that's just me). Maybe he does want a super studio to record his shit, with an ultimate drummer behind him.

On the other hand, I find it really unprofessional to NOT declare his "other expenses" (food, living, etc.) like PTH did. 10k$ for mixing and mastering OBVIOUSLY means "mixing, mastering, and everything else".

Anyways, I'm broke right now so he ain't getting my money!!!


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 30, 2013)

Wait a sec. There is no mention of the cost of producing the CDs, Tshirts,picks and Vinyl. Thats got to cost a lot right?



DarkWolfXV said:


> Guys, you are funny. I can remember people here protecting PTH and their ridiculous 200k goal, and now you diss someone with a far lower goal..



Protest the Hero's goal was $125,000 of which after fees and payout of perks would roughly be $93,000. PTH are also have a worldwide touring band a massive fan base that funded the record. In fairness they felt they weren't going to reach their goal since they were convinced they weren't popular/liked much anymore.


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## Nats (Sep 30, 2013)

All these fund raiser beg a thons are pathetic, but at least Pth tours. This dude is releasing this bs with no intention of even playing this shit again. He couldn't even play it for the video. Maybe his super high end recording studio will collapse on him. Or maybe he's just trolling.


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## Captain Shoggoth (Sep 30, 2013)

I have 3 albums and an EP of melodic djent-free prog metal written.

If this reaches $20k I publicly promise to record, produce and release them all for FREE.


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## davidengel (Sep 30, 2013)

The Omega Cluster said:


> That's like saying: "Why did you buy a Ferrari? You could've bought a Dodge or Chrysler (any generic low-price car manufacturer), and it will take you to the same place, at the same speed (you won't go 200mph on a public road just because your car can). This will cost you only 20-30k$ instead of 150k$"



I understand your argument, though the recording process is entirely different than buying a car. Due to the previous shenanigans involving note-for-note and half-speed recording that Lucas Mann/RoS have been accused of, why should he expect to obtain $20K for "professionally" recording an album? Many already seem skeptical on why he needs that much money, it wouldn't surprise many if he will half-speed or note-for-note it in the studio; so why pay him to spend time in the studio doing that when he can do it at home for free, then spend a day re-amping from there? Would it surprise anyone at all if he just ended up using an AxeFX tone?


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## no_dice (Sep 30, 2013)

The song sounds cool enough, but I had to laugh out loud at the MIDI audio.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Sep 30, 2013)

The bottom line for me: if you can't be assed to make a legitimate play through, then you don't want or need $20,000 dollars.


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## Hyacinth (Sep 30, 2013)

The Omega Cluster said:


> That's like saying: "Why did you buy a Ferrari? You could've bought a Dodge or Chrysler (any generic low-price car manufacturer), and it will take you to the same place, at the same speed (you won't go 200mph on a public road just because your car can). This will cost you only 20-30k$ instead of 150k$"



If you had a kid who wanted a car and was begging for the money so he could by one, would you give him the money for a Ferrari or the money for a used Toyota Camry? The reason people who have the money buy Expensive stuff is because it's _their_ money, not money they asked strangers for. If a bum asked for a dollar to buy some Mcdonalds you'd probably do it. If a bum asked for $80 to eat at a five star restaurant you would laugh and walk away, which is what everyone is doing to this indiegogo.


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## skisgaar (Sep 30, 2013)

REAL PICTURE OF LUCAS MANN RECORDING PRE-PRODUCTION MATERIAL:


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## straightshreddd (Sep 30, 2013)

edsped said:


> I'm still trying to figure out this post.



Well, a bunch of people are saying that "it's not the music. It's the fundraising."

I sincerely and wholeheartedly doubt it's that at all for the majority of guys who hate this band. I think some guys just hate them(and Lucas) for no reason or because they're set in their ways and don't want music to be any different than they're used to. If you even disagree with things they stand for, they will hate you, too. haha

As for the indiegogo thing, he said he'll refund the money if the goal isn't met. So, if he tries to gather money to record a solo album, he's an asshole? If he can't gather such money and doesn't put out the album but refunds the money, he's an asshole? Yes, he could put out a decent quality album for less, but what if he's a perfectionist and wants the best quality and help available? How 'bout instead of sitting here bashing, you go to their facebook and ask him yourself?

Some guys are just really sensitive toward people disagreeing with them, as you can see by my latest neg rep. I'm just saying broaden your horizons a bit and stop instantly hating everything you see in life that opposes the norm of what you're used to. If you don't like Lucas or RoS, why let it be a thing in your life and boil with hate in front of your computer? Click the little x and move on with your life.


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## NaYoN (Sep 30, 2013)

Hey guys. Let me give you a tip: If you like the proposition, fund it. If not, don't. It's pretty simple, really. 

I really don't see the purpose of some of the arguments being made here, especially the ones calling him names or wanting to punch him. Also, if you don't like the recording/playing technique, don't support it. I know it sounds magical, but it's really that simple.


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## xCaptainx (Sep 30, 2013)

lol 20 Grand? you could get an album like that recorded quarter that. Easily.


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## MikeH (Sep 30, 2013)

I just recorded an album with a producer who is contracted by Artery Recordings, including mix and master, for $3,000. Echoing this entire thread, $20k is ridiculous.


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## Hyacinth (Sep 30, 2013)

NaYoN said:


> Hey guys. Let me give you a tip: If you like the proposition, fund it. If not, don't. It's pretty simple, really.
> 
> I really don't see the purpose of some of the arguments being made here, especially the ones calling him names or wanting to punch him. Also, if you don't like the recording/playing technique, don't support it. I know it sounds magical, but it's really that simple.



It's the music discussion board, so people are discussing it. The general consensus seems to be that people don't like it, so they're discussing why they don't like it. I don't understand why some people said they want to hit him, I guess that's just how they express their distaste for him


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## Narrillnezzurh (Sep 30, 2013)

straightshreddd said:


> I sincerely and wholeheartedly doubt it's that at all for the majority of guys who hate this band.



And given that all of the complaints with this fundraising campaign are valid, you have very little grounds for that doubt.

I love RoS, but asking $20k for an album you could do for $5k and refusing to even make the album if you don't reach that $20k is pretentious, and offering a _fake_ playthrough video is icing on the cake. If he wanted to do this right he would have provided a more detailed breakdown of his expenses with more information on the logistics of getting the album finished, he would've offered to still make the album at a much lower quality standard had he not met the goal, or at least specified that he felt any less than $20k would result in an album of such low quality that he wouldn't feel comfortable releasing it (still bullshit, but at least it'd be honest), and he would've provided short Guitar Pro excerpts from every song on the album rather than faking a playthrough video of only a single song.

If you can't see why people are put off by this, I'm sorry, but it has nothing to do with RoS hate or traditionalist tendencies.


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## Volteau (Sep 30, 2013)

F***ed up how at 1:32, he takes his hand off the fret board and yet the note keeps ringing (the 10th fret G note in standard tuning)... *sigh*


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## breadtruck (Sep 30, 2013)

For real though if this guy got 20 grand he would still probably just use an AxeFX and EZdrummer to make the album and pocket the rest. Just because he gave made up figures on the indiegogo page doesn't mean he would show any sort of proof that he paid that much for things. I seriously doubt those figures are quotes from recording studios/mixing engineers etc.

No offense to the dude, but he's young and i'd be surprised if he didn't think "well damn...turns out i can get the album done for $5k....now i've got $15k to spend on gear "


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## Narrillnezzurh (Sep 30, 2013)

He's got two albums under his belt already. $20k is ridiculous, but let's give credit where credit is due.


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## Hyacinth (Sep 30, 2013)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> he would've offered to still make the album at a much lower quality standard had he not met the goal, or at least specified that he felt any less than $20k would result in an album of such low quality that he wouldn't feel comfortable releasing it



*THIS* a thousand times. At least PTH said that even if they didn't make their goal they'd release an album with the money they _did_ raise.


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## no_dice (Sep 30, 2013)

straightshreddd said:


> As for the indiegogo thing, he said he'll refund the money if the goal isn't met.



I'm pretty sure that's just how these crowdfunding sites work, and not him just being a stand-up guy. I don't have anything personal against him or RoS. I saw them live once and they were okay (but the singer was kinda lame).

The presentation of this demo track is almost insulting to potential funders, in my opinion. If he can play the song as well as he can look like he's playing it, it would be much easier to just record it into his computer than to type it into Guitar Pro, it would sound better, and it would do a much better job of whetting people's appetites. 

...and it's always humorous whenever there's a thread about crowdfunding, someone always comes stomping in with the old "Don't like it, don't buy it!"


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## ncfiala (Sep 30, 2013)

I'd pay him to not make an album.


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## fwd0120 (Sep 30, 2013)

I wanna get crowdfunded....Just to make it to next week.


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## Hyacinth (Sep 30, 2013)

I want to get crowdfunded to get the best gear imaginable then I can make ALL the albums! =D


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## Xiphos68 (Sep 30, 2013)

Speaking of costs to make albums...

Joe Satriani's "Surfing with the Alien." 5000$ 

Devin Townsend's "Ziltoid." 5000$ 

Two Legendary records made with 5000$.


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## abandonist (Sep 30, 2013)

NaYoN said:


> Hey guys. Let me give you a tip: If you like the proposition, fund it. If not, don't. It's pretty simple, really.
> 
> I really don't see the purpose of some of the arguments being made here, especially the ones calling him names or wanting to punch him. Also, if you don't like the recording/playing technique, don't support it. I know it sounds magical, but it's really that simple.



Gotta' support you fellow endorsee?


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## Narrillnezzurh (Sep 30, 2013)

Xiphos68 said:


> Devin Townsend's "Ziltoid." 5000$



Ziltoid was made with DfH for christ's sake, and it still sounds monstrous. Pro-sounding records can be mixed in a bedroom nowadays, there's no reason $10k needs to be spent on mixing and mastering.


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## TripperJ (Sep 30, 2013)

As much as I hate Rings Of Saturn and Lucas Mann this sounds good, but the question is if he can play his shit instead of using ....ing guitarpro midi, backing tracks, and half speed to cheat.


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## Narrillnezzurh (Sep 30, 2013)

To be totally honest, I don't care what he has to do to get the final product as long as he doesn't falsely advertise. I don't want to see him playing guitar if the audio is MIDI, and I don't want him to act like things were recorded naturally if they weren't.


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## Dan (Oct 1, 2013)

The Omega Cluster said:


> That's like saying: "Why did you buy a Ferrari? You could've bought a Dodge or Chrysler (any generic low-price car manufacturer), and it will take you to the same place, at the same speed (you won't go 200mph on a public road just because your car can). This will cost you only 20-30k$ instead of 150k$"



"Why did you buy a Ferrari?"





"I didn't. I got other people to buy it for me because i couldn't be bothered to build my own supercar myself......"


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## NaYoN (Oct 1, 2013)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> To be totally honest, I don't care what he has to do to get the final product as long as he doesn't falsely advertise. I don't want to see him playing guitar if the audio is MIDI, and I don't want him to act like things were recorded naturally if they weren't.



I'm pretty sure that the guitar notes are going to be quantized individually.


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## SoItGoesRVA (Oct 9, 2013)

Relevant semi-necro:

Video: Rings of Saturn Guitarist Lucas Mann's Criminal Abuse of Guitar Pro | MetalSucks


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## abandonist (Oct 9, 2013)

I love it.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Oct 9, 2013)

SoItGoesRVA said:


> Video: Rings of Saturn Guitarist Lucas Mann's Criminal Abuse of Guitar Pro | MetalSucks


 
I'm glad that that article referenced Eyal Levi, as he's extremely vocal about his opinions on Guitar Pro and studio trickery. Anybody who follows his articles or FB will know how he constantly drills this to no end, always reminding that musicians should be well prepared long before they hit record. 

I'm not against using modern technology to create works of art, far from it, but as somebody who had to go through the recording studio ropes the hard way, I'm not a fan of using such tools to mask and cover your playing.


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## tacotiklah (Oct 9, 2013)

Well here's where I enjoyed PTH's crowdfunding verses Lucas Mann's; the perks. See the thing with these crowdfunding deals is that you are paying for something. You are paying to receive a good or service from the person asking for money. PTH had great and funny perks that were appropriately priced and unique enough that you felt you were getting your money's worth.

Lucas Mann has this on the other hand:


> $250+
> Special Thanks
> 1 out of 5 claimed
> Get your name, picture, and a personal message on the insert of the physical album. Also includes the physical album. *Shipping not included.*



A special thanks is always cool and definitely a great perk. However the embolden part states that "shipping not included". How the hell are you going to tell people that just dropped $250 for your project to happen (especially when you're high-balling @ 20k for a simple bedroom project) that you're too cheap to even pay for shipping and that they're stuck with it? See, this whole thing was not thought out in the least bit and reeks of being thrown together at the last second. If people are going to give you their hard (or otherwise) earned money, they expect a service and they expect at least some modicum of professionalism behind it. This is where PTH succeeded and where I believe Mann will fail.


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## capoeiraesp (Oct 9, 2013)

Is anyone else bothered by his attitude of "Out of good faith, I have made a short demo..."?
I think asking people for $20k requires a bit of a different attitude. It almost comes across a bit arrogant. Why not say "here's a demo video of some of the amazing stuff I'd like to get out to you guys".

And I know i'm _that guy_ when it comes to Etherial but if you're asking folks to fork out $3k for your prototype then you ought to provide more details on it e.g. high res pics, not a photoshop picture.


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## abandonist (Oct 9, 2013)

The whole things sucks - like everything personally attributed to this band.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Oct 9, 2013)

MatthewLeisher said:


> It's the music discussion board, so people are discussing it. The general consensus seems to be that people don't like it, so they're discussing why they don't like it. I don't understand why some people said they want to hit him, I guess that's just how they express their distaste for him



That's far from the general consensus, but people who don't like stuff tend to be the most vocal about it for one reason or another. However, there's no rational reason to unjustify it so why bother discussing it?


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## Metal_Webb (Oct 9, 2013)

Guitar Pro: A ....ing useful tool to help you map out and arrange your songs. I know it helps me to map out my ideas and learn the stuff I write.

But .... me. It's NEVER a replacement for real playing. It's useful in helping to flesh out the harmonic landscape of a song. Heck, I found an album on Bandcamp a while ago which was all MIDI guitar pro renders (not even RSE's) and they wanted $10 for it  Not on, especially when you're presenting your stuff as a high quality production.


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## themike (Oct 9, 2013)

Anyone notice how the playalong video says "Mixed and Mastered by Zeuss" in the description? Zuess should have suggested some reamping


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## fps (Oct 9, 2013)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> Ziltoid was made with DfH for christ's sake, and it still sounds monstrous. Pro-sounding records can be mixed in a bedroom nowadays, there's no reason $10k needs to be spent on mixing and mastering.



At Devin's studio surely, with all its thousands of dollars of plug-ins and with Devin, who wouldn't do it for free if it was someone else's album, being the main worker on it?


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## DLG (Oct 9, 2013)

rip technical metal


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## coffinwisdom (Oct 9, 2013)

My brother's band recorded 15 songs (80 minute cd) live drums, vocals, mic'd guitar cabs and bass in about 2 weeks for ~$5000 mixed and mastered and it sounds amazing. There's absolutely no way a solo album could cost more than that especially not even having to spend time micing shit up


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## Narrillnezzurh (Oct 9, 2013)

fps said:


> At Devin's studio surely, with all its thousands of dollars of plug-ins and with Devin, who wouldn't do it for free if it was someone else's album, being the main worker on it?



$5000 on instruments, $2000 on monitors and room treatment, $1000 on a computer and interface, $2000 on software. He could do this album from scratch for $10k if he wanted to, all he's missing is the know-how to do it himself.


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## Jonathan20022 (Oct 9, 2013)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> $5000 on instruments, $2000 on monitors and room treatment, $1000 on a computer and interface, $2000 on software. He could do this album from scratch for $10k if he wanted to, all he's missing is the know-how to do it himself.



Well he's clearly got the Instrument and Software portion of the funds covered  And since when does $5000 go towards instruments? Most musicians already have their recording gear before hitting the studio, Monitors/Room Treatment/Recording Computer/Interface is something reasonable I think at least.


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## Narrillnezzurh (Oct 9, 2013)

Right, that was my point. Even if he started with nothing he could do the project very comfortably with the amount he's asking, and he's obviously not starting with nothing.


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## SoItGoesRVA (Oct 9, 2013)

I think the video was dumb as .... to do, especially when the band's musicianship was already being called into question.


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## MikeH (Oct 9, 2013)

$1,020 out of $20,000. RACING TO THE TOP!


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## Big_taco (Oct 9, 2013)

$20,000 for a solo album and Guitar Pro audio play through video...what a girl wiener


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## TIBrent (Oct 9, 2013)

Lame...


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## darren (Oct 9, 2013)

WhiteWalls said:


> I laughed out loud at 1:27.



"*sigh* MooooOOOOM? I TOLD you i was reCORding a VIdeo!"


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## Eptaceros (Oct 9, 2013)

$500 VIP Dinner

(Dinner is on us, travel expenses not included)


No, dinner is not on you. It's on the idiot who would pay $500 dollars for it.


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## Andrew91 (Oct 9, 2013)

.............lol


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## Nats (Oct 9, 2013)

All Comments
Comments are disabled for this video.


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## Kwirk (Oct 10, 2013)

D:


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## Hyacinth (Oct 10, 2013)

Andrew91 said:


> View attachment 35783
> 
> 
> .............lol



Yeah...okay...his cleans sound like guitar pro because Metalsucks has it out for him. This guy is a huge dipshit, he's wasting talent.


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## Hyacinth (Oct 10, 2013)

darren said:


> "*sigh* MooooOOOOM? I TOLD you i was reCORding a VIdeo!"



That's a young black chick, but I also immediately thought it was his mom


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## Nats (Oct 10, 2013)

MikeH said:


> $1,020 out of $20,000. RACING TO THE TOP!



That was nice of his mom to do.


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## xfilth (Oct 10, 2013)

Give this guy a break! I think 20k is very fair - good session musicians are expensive these days!


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## Mprinsje (Oct 10, 2013)

it's such a shame that it's a GP playthrough, i really like the clean stuff.


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## oracles (Oct 10, 2013)

So let me see if I understand this correctly. Lucas Mann needs $20k for a record we're not even sure is actually going to even feature real instruments due to his less than convincing "play through", but Hannes Grossman can put out a solo record for a little over $5.5k and have guest spots by Jeff Loomis, Per Nilsson, Christian Muenzner, Danny Tunker, Ron Jarzombek and Linus Klausenitzer, and we'll actually know we aren't hearing guitar pro? 

Lucas Mann can get ....ed.


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## ChrisLangstrom (Oct 10, 2013)

Maybe he is intending to do the right thing and get $18k worth of guitar lessons so he might actually learn how to play?


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## DLG (Oct 10, 2013)

ChrisLangstrom said:


> Maybe he is intending to do the right thing and get $18k worth of guitar lessons so he might actually learn how to play?



that's a whole lot of summers at mattias eklundh's freak guitar camp.


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## gunshow86de (Oct 10, 2013)

xfilth said:


> Give this guy a break! I think 20k is very fair - good session musicians are expensive these days!



Hiyoooooooooo!!!

Hiyoooo!


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## MikeH (Oct 10, 2013)

oracles said:


> So let me see if I understand this correctly. Lucas Mann needs $20k for a record we're not even sure is actually going to even feature real instruments due to his less than convincing "play through", but Hannes Grossman can put out a solo record for a little over $5.5k and have guest spots by Jeff Loomis, Per Nilsson, Christian Muenzner, Danny Tunker, Ron Jarzombek and Linus Klausenitzer, and we'll actually know we aren't hearing guitar pro?
> 
> Lucas Mann can get ....ed.



All of this.
/thread


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## tacotiklah (Oct 10, 2013)

Well regarding what he is "playing"; even as someone that is vehemently against what rings of saturn does, I genuinely like some of the ideas that Mann is doing on his own. I really do.
And I use guitar pro to convey musical ideas all the time; mainly as a way to get feedback from peers to see if what I'm composing has any merit at all. But never do I present it as anything other than 'hey, here's a midi file of what I've been working on lately. You down to have a listen?'
That's where I'm kinda unhappy with Mann and unwilling to do anything to help crowdfund this. The play-through demo is everything and if we see that he's not being 100% honest with it, or trying to cut corners on it, then unintentionally or not, it conveys the message that he will likely do this with the album. And I've gotta say that RoS hasn't proven themselves to the degree that bands like Protest the Hero have. In the big scope of things, they're still a "new" band on the scene. So to instantly ask people to crowdfund a solo album that has nothing to do with RoS and with no guarantee that there will even be an album (because it's looking pretty bleak at just 1k out of 20k) can come across to people as a bit conceited and unreasonable.


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## simonXsludge (Oct 10, 2013)

Andrew91 said:


>


Wait a minute, he says the sound in his video is NOT coming from Guitar Pro??? He's pretending that what we're hearing is his playing?

The money he is asking for is also ridiculous (see Hannes Grossmann's much more realisticly priced campaign). This crowdfunding thing has become a joke because of dozens of people like this Lucas Mann clown, which are trying to get their useless solo efforts funded and cashing in at the same time. They're making it incredibly hard for more substantial and "worthy" projects to not get overlooked.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Oct 10, 2013)

I was thinking of starting a kickstarter for my next bowel movement. There'll be several different packages, but if you donate $2,000 I'll let you be in the room with me when I squeeze it out.


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## Mprinsje (Oct 10, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I was thinking of starting a kickstarter for my next bowel movement. There'll be several different packages, but if you donate $2,000 I'll let you be in the room with me when I squeeze it out.



worth it.


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## SoItGoesRVA (Oct 10, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I was thinking of starting a kickstarter for my next bowel movement. There'll be several different packages, but if you donate $2,000 I'll let you be in the room with me when I squeeze it out.



I ain't paying for that shit


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## GiveUpGuitar (Oct 10, 2013)

The Omega Cluster said:


> The project sounds quite jazzy, with hints of AAS and maybe STS throughout. Theres a playthrough of a demo song on the indiegogo website! Check this out!
> 
> Lucas Mann Solo Album | Indiegogo



I really don't see how that's not guitar pro. It sounds like it wasn't even EQ'd past the original midi file.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 10, 2013)

shitsøn;3760437 said:


> Wait a minute, he says the sound in his video is NOT coming from Guitar Pro??? He's pretending that what we're hearing is his playing?



It's a pathetic thing to do. 

Since I use Guitar Pro a lot for writing down ideas i noticed at the clean section at the start every note is down-picked with GP's inhuman consistency. When you up-pick the note has a slightly different tone because there is slightly less attack. The same note is down-picked 4 times with the exact same velocity and tone each time yet he's alternate picking in the video. Not to mention the lack of string noise, pick noise from picking and tapping etc 

If he wrote something like "Playing along to the midi. If I get the funding I will be able to record this properly." that would have been ok. It would have generated a lot more interest and there would have been no mud slung at him. He may be miming but he can clearly play it up to speed and its an addictive piece that gets stuck in your head.


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## MrCthulhu (Oct 10, 2013)

We shouldn't really be wondering if it is Guitar Pro....we all should just agree it is.


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## Splinterhead (Oct 10, 2013)

Him passing off this video as his actual playing is reprehensible. This is only going to marginalize him as a guitar player and musician. 

My advice? put in the time.


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## Randy (Oct 10, 2013)

From what I've heard of Rings of Saturn, the guy's definitely a capable guitar player. My assumption (based on the fact it's an "at home" video playthrough with people walking around in the background) is that the video was rushed and on a super slim budget, and that THAT has more to do with the amount of GPish stuff and miming than it does with being deliberately dishonest.

I also doubt he could pull off that hilariously GP track line down live, but that doesn't matter to me too much.  I also doubt there are a lot of people walking this planet that can play 1/2 of that stuff. Either way, there aren't a lot of people who I bow down to when it comes to guitar and even if that whole song was played live, flawlessly, he still wouldn't be one of them (that's not me on a high-horse. I only say that because the kinda players I hold up really high are guys who put out consistent material over time and move the medium forward. One or two albums in a couple years isn't enough to really do that); so I don't take it too personally if he uses tricks to make the CD sound the way he wants.

Trying to pass off ANY of that playthrough as genuine, asking an unreasonable amount for his fundraiser and chaulking up the "metalsucks" article as a grudge are a different topic all together. Like I said, he's a decent player but everybody who's heard Rings of Saturn know that every track is DEFINITELY punched in practically note-by-note. I don't know if it's age, the metal scene or fear of becoming the next Al Mu'min but he sure seems like he quick to need to defend himself but he'd probably be better off being more up front about things.


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## darren (Oct 10, 2013)

He's lost so much credibility by doing this. Instead of trying to continue to make people believe (emphasis on "make believe") that he's actually playing, he should have just been honest and said, "Here's one of the compositions i'm working on for the album. I hope you like it. This is Guitar Pro, but it will be recorded with real guitars."

But the time for doing that is now long past, and he's dug a nice, deep hole for himself to get out of.


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I was thinking of starting a kickstarter for my next bowel movement. There'll be several different packages, but if you donate $2,000 I'll let you be in the room with me when I squeeze it out.







SoItGoesRVA said:


> I ain't paying for that shit



I see what you did there.


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## SoItGoesRVA (Oct 10, 2013)

Rick said:


> I see what you did there.



I'll be here all week making crappy jokes


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## Rick (Oct 10, 2013)

SoItGoesRVA said:


> I'll be here all week making crappy jokes



I see what you did there.


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## Nats (Oct 10, 2013)

Randy said:


> is that the video was rushed and on a super slim budget



Well then I guess he should have crowd funded a budget to record a video of the project he's going to crowd fund to record.


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## Randy (Oct 10, 2013)

Fundception!


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## Danukenator (Oct 10, 2013)

SHIT, Hannes' highest perk is a deal:



> - I play on one of your songs
> - just send me your song and we work it out
> - you'll receive 16 individual drum tracks, which you can mix the way you want



For 300 euros that's WAY better than your average, sub 1000 dollar/euro perk.


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## Drew (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm not sure which makes me sadder, the fact that this guy insists that the audio in his video is a live performance, or all the posters on the two first pages saying how awesome the guitar playing sounds and how it's "just like any other AxeFX clean tone I've heard."

We as a genre should be ashamed of ourselves for tolerating this kind of stuff.


----------



## TheFerryMan (Oct 10, 2013)

DLG said:


> that's a whole lot of summers at mattias eklundh's freak guitar camp.



Man, I want that.


----------



## daedae (Oct 10, 2013)

Xiphos68 said:


> Speaking of costs to make albums...
> 
> Joe Satriani's "Surfing with the Alien." 5000$
> 
> ...



Surfing with the Alien is a bad comparison point, if this conversion is correct ($5k in 1987 to roughly ~$10k in 2013). But the Ziltoid point stands. (Also, citation needed on the costs )


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## Drew (Oct 10, 2013)

daedae said:


> Surfing with the Alien is a bad comparison point, if this conversion is correct ($5k in 1987 to roughly ~$10k in 2013). But the Ziltoid point stands. (Also, citation needed on the costs )



It's also a classic not because of its staggeringly lush production and exceptionally rich, warm guitar tones, so much as some REALLY kickass writing and playing from a game changing guitarist.


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## Andrew91 (Oct 10, 2013)

At least the dirty metal part was real..
..lol..

But yeah no.
This shit's dumb.


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## Randy (Oct 10, 2013)

Drew said:


> I'm not sure which makes me sadder, the fact that this guy insists that the audio in his video is a live performance, or all the posters on the two first pages saying how awesome the guitar playing sounds and how it's "just like any other AxeFX clean tone I've heard."
> 
> We as a genre should be ashamed of ourselves for tolerating this kind of stuff.



That's some pretty selective reading because I interepreted pretty much everything other than the op as four pages of utter dogpiling but hey, whatever helps paint us all as ignorant kids.


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## SoItGoesRVA (Oct 10, 2013)

Andrew91 said:


> At least the dirty metal part was real..
> ..lol...


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## edsped (Oct 10, 2013)

Randy said:


> That's some pretty selective reading because I interepreted pretty much everything other than the op as four pages of utter dogpiling but hey, whatever helps paint us all as ignorant kids.



It wasn't the entire first two pages but it was more than just the original poster.


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## Randy (Oct 10, 2013)

Yeah, and I said 'pretty much'. That's no less of an overstament than being told we should be ashamed because a really select few people said something dumb about a guy that's pretty easy to pick on.

There's a trends of threads that feature a handful of silly or ignorant statements being interpreted as some indication that we're all stupid on this site and I'm kind of tired of unjustly getting that reputation.


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## Randy (Oct 10, 2013)

I count 6 or 7 supportive posts in the first two pages (which means 53 or 54 unsupportive posts), and I'm still not seeing anybody saying the cleans sound like an AxeFx and I'm certainly not seeing anybody agreeing with such a comment. 

Barely enough material to think we should somehow feel collectively embarrassed for supporting anything.


----------



## RevDrucifer (Oct 11, 2013)




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## Drew (Oct 11, 2013)

Randy said:


> That's some pretty selective reading because I interepreted pretty much everything other than the op as four pages of utter dogpiling but hey, whatever helps paint us all as ignorant kids.



There was a lot of dogpiling (and I'd say deservedly so) but also a lot of compliments. We've talked about this a bit in the past, man, but I guess to be a little clearer, I said "we" as a reason - I'm not slagging off on this community per se as much as saying that all of us here who are into fairly technical guitar playing shouldn't tolerate things like a guy posting a "playthrough" video with what's clearly Guitar Pro audio, or all the crap that idiot from the HAARP machine pulls. If we don't tolerate it, it'll stop. If we do, it'll continue to get worse, and personally I don't want to ever go to a metal show and see a band miming to GP parts in concert, you know? We need to uphold standards. 

As far as the first two pages: 



Joshua said:


> I'm impressed. If I wasn't broke I'd throw some money at this. *Hoping he reaches his goal 'cause I'd really like to hear a full album of this.*





spawnofthesith said:


> *That track is pretty badass, not what I was expecting at all*





fps said:


> He's a top quality guitarist, no doubt, and *that sounded great*, will the people decide $20k is too steep? Very interested to see how it pans out, this is a very new area after all.





Jonathan20022 said:


> LOL, *Good music* but this is just stupid. 20k? 5k would probably be MUCH more realistic man.
> 
> Honestly, I'm going to start recording music once I get my Axe FX 2 and it's still 2.2k for an Axe. A couple hundred for Superior Drummer and a couple cool sound packs, less than 1k for a great Custom Recording PC, and a couple hundred for a good guitar to record with and some monitors. I wouldn't be surprised if he hit the goal if Rings of Saturn starts advertising the campaign on their Facebook page. But this is pretty bad, and the Etherial Perk is pretty ....ed up to do if it's full of flaws, but I guess that's another way to sell of shitty gear.





spawnofthesith said:


> Crowdsourcing + Rings of Saturn all in one thread, why am I not surprised at all the webrage?
> 
> 
> Also, *the cleans sound like a million other bands with Axe Fx's clean tones to me, not guitar pro files -shrug-*





drawnacrol said:


> 1:27
> 
> *The clean stuff does sound really good though!* It reminds me of old Amiga/Dosbox point and click games. Feeling Nostalgic now.





Zerox8610 said:


> *I love Lucas' playing, and at least he's trying.* Donated.
> 
> We live in a time where most artists, including yourselves, use fake drums and pre-recorded instruments/samples for their music, yet we still complain when someone uses EMGs and tries something different from the average metal album.



Again, I've got nothing against you personally, Randy, and there's a bunch of pretty bright, intelligent blokes here too, but there's also a lot of blind fanboi-ism and trend jumping as well, and anyone who listened to this and didn't catch the fact it was clearly MIDI should probably re-evaluate their objectivity. 

And I DO think we as a genre should be embarrassed that we've let the bar get so low that someone in an actual band with real, living fans who's preparing to release a solo album thought this was a perfectly legit way to promote it.


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## Randy (Oct 11, 2013)

Fair points all around.


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## GiveUpGuitar (Oct 11, 2013)

Drew said:


> And I DO think we as a genre should be embarrassed that we've let the bar get so low that someone in an actual band with real, living fans who's preparing to release a solo album thought this was a perfectly legit way to promote it.



This is my primary issue with the whole thing. God forbid anyone takes influence (and I use that term loosely) and starts faking their performances/records. We live in a world where you can play to a backing track live, and we are a step away from not needing instruments all together. This is NOT productivity. 

I consider myself a song writer. I used to be into writing technical metal, and I've definitely dumbed myself down over the years. However, there's a place in my heart, much like many of us guitar players, for serious, authentic wankery. You hear computerized music, from house/dubstep, to mainstream hip-hop, and you think "I play a ....ing instrument. I worked hard to get where I am today" and then some kids come along and bridge the gap between real and fake in our genre. 

The thought of Rings of Saturn, and all aspects of it, is a really cool idea. Chaotic shreddy death core. No complaints about what they're going for... but they are going about it in such an offensive way.


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## Quantumface (Oct 11, 2013)

Drew said:


> There was a lot of dogpiling (and I'd say deservedly so) but also a lot of compliments. We've talked about this a bit in the past, man, but I guess to be a little clearer, I said "we" as a reason - I'm not slagging off on this community per se as much as saying that all of us here who are into fairly technical guitar playing shouldn't tolerate things like a guy posting a "playthrough" video with what's clearly Guitar Pro audio, or all the crap that idiot from the HAARP machine pulls. If we don't tolerate it, it'll stop. If we do, it'll continue to get worse, and personally I don't want to ever go to a metal show and see a band miming to GP parts in concert, you know? We need to uphold standards.
> 
> As far as the first two pages:
> 
> ...



What do you mean the crap from the guy from the HAARP machine pulls. Did I miss something, what happened with him? Is there a thread on it?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 11, 2013)

I think Al Mu'min recorded his solos at half speed and sped them up for the actual songs. 

I remember seeing some live videos of HAARP... Al was pretty ....ing sloppy.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Oct 11, 2013)

Basically, the audio for the .strandberg* video he did was recorded at half speed, then sped up. This, combined with the fact that he seems to struggle to play the music live, and the fact that the band sounded best the night he wasn't there, and they just used backing tracks, lead everybody to believe that he just plain old couldn't play the stuff, and recorded the entire album at half speed.

And it's all in the HAARP Machine thread.


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## Drew (Oct 12, 2013)

I don't think it was actually half speed - maybe 80% of tempo - but essentially he plays his parts slower than the intended tempo, edits the living .... out of them, and then speeds the edited DIs back up and reamps them. He does this on the album and on video playthroughs he's recorded, and just mimes along to his edited tracks on playthroughs. Also, a lot of people have pointed out the weirdly identical sounding amp hum in a lot of his playthrough videos that he likely edited in to make them sound more "live." 

God knows I'm not a perfect guitarist myself, but come on.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 12, 2013)

Drew said:


> Also, a lot of people have pointed out the weirdly identical sounding amp hum in a lot of his playthrough videos that he likely edited in to make them sound more "live."



No words.


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## DLG (Oct 14, 2013)




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## BlindingLight7 (Oct 14, 2013)

I was going to type a big huge post but decided to take the easier route and find a gif that gets my thoughts across simpler, and It'll probably get more likes than If I had gone with my original plan anyway. Some people may call that being lazy, I call it being creative. 

I simply don't like this kind of music, unlike most here. But completely appreciate the "cheater" approach.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Oct 14, 2013)

I mean technically he is playing in the video

I really don't care how someone wants to write a song just as long as they are able to play it live or make a video showing them playing it. Based on his YouTube videos I know he can easily play whatever he is coming up with for the solo album. Do I think the album is going to be funded enough? No not a chance he really kinda ....ed himself by being so vague as to what the money was going to be going to.


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## no_dice (Oct 14, 2013)

Writing with guitar pro is perfectly okay in my book, but if you're doing it to purposely write shit you can't play, then it's like buying shit on layaway. The song isn't complete, in my personal opinion, until you can play and record it legit.

As for anyone defending his "playthrough" video, saying he could easily play it, why didn't he? Time? If he has no problem playing the song, it shouldn't have taken beyond maybe a couple takes.


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## lava (Oct 14, 2013)

GiveUpGuitar said:


> You hear computerized music, from house/dubstep, to mainstream hip-hop, and you think "I play a ....ing instrument. I worked hard to get where I am today"



You lost me when you said this. Just because you worked hard to learn an instrument doesn't mean it's more legitimate than programming synthesizer sounds and sequences on a computer. Those are instruments too. Not everybody can do that well - you still have to have a discerning ear. 

I happen to think the song in Lucas' playthrough was pretty cool. It's the fact that he passed it off as him playing it live that offends me. But if he'd said "check out this cool track I programmed", that'd be totally legit.


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## Narrillnezzurh (Oct 14, 2013)

no_dice said:


> As for anyone defending his "playthrough" video, saying he could easily play it, why didn't he? Time? If he has no problem playing the song, it shouldn't have taken beyond maybe a couple takes.



I think people are more upset by the fact that he's trying to make it seem like he did actually play in the video than the fact that he didn't actually play in the video.


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## no_dice (Oct 14, 2013)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> I think people are more upset by the fact that he's trying to make it seem like he did actually play in the video than the fact that he didn't actually play in the video.



I get that, and I agree, but I'm pretty sure someone defended it with "who cares, it looks like he can actually play it." I was just stating my opinion that if he can play the song, he should have. It would sound better, and people wouldn't be railing on him on the internet as much.


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## whenallelsefa1ls (Oct 14, 2013)

The Omega Cluster said:


> The project sounds quite jazzy, with hints of AAS and maybe STS throughout. Theres a playthrough of a demo song on the indiegogo website! Check this out!
> 
> Lucas Mann Solo Album | Indiegogo




I will never give this man money, his music has no proper structure and his ego is way to large.


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## Erockomania (Oct 14, 2013)

Ok. 1:27 is absolutely hilarious. Almost spoof worthy. Lol


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 14, 2013)

I've read more negative things about this Lucas dude than I've heard of his music. After the whole bit from his former drummer and this video, I'm led to believe everything that drummer said. 

No doubt the dude can play some cool stuff and is creative, but obviously the route he's going isn't working for him in a positive way. 

How many singers get slagged for using auto-tune and lip-syncing live? If it's not ok for Beyonce, (who can actually sing what she's syncing live), it's certainly not ok for this dude.


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## DjentDjentlalala (Oct 15, 2013)

Everyone who donated is probably deaf or is a complete idiot.


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## NaYoN (Oct 15, 2013)

DjentDjentlalala said:


> Everyone who donated is probably deaf or is a complete idiot.



Or maybe they don't care about arbitrary rules saying how music should and shouldn't be made?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 15, 2013)

NaYoN said:


> Or maybe they don't care about arbitrary rules saying how music should and shouldn't be made?



No, they're idiots.


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## Nats (Oct 15, 2013)

NaYoN said:


> Or maybe they don't care about arbitrary rules saying how music should and shouldn't be made?



Nope, they're idiots. Enjoy his GP6 files, though


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## Malkav (Oct 15, 2013)

Read this whole thread, was wondering if it really did sound like GP as everyone claims, watched the video and basically started crying with laughter, yeah that's GP...

One of the things that makes it even more obvious than the audio, is the fact that when he starts tapping with his plectrum the tone remains completely consistent, anyone who has ever tapped using their plectrum in their life ever would have experienced the difference in overall attack and the way the notes peak when going about it that way.


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## Drew (Oct 15, 2013)

NaYoN said:


> Or maybe they don't care about arbitrary rules saying how music should and shouldn't be made?



I think we just found someone who donated.  

Don't worry, bro. If you really dig the tone he'll probably release a Guitar Pro preset pack for anyone who donates over $750.


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## Fred the Shred (Oct 15, 2013)

lava said:


> I happen to think the song in Lucas' playthrough was pretty cool. It's the fact that he passed it off as him playing it live that offends me. But if he'd said "check out this cool track I programmed", that'd be totally legit.



This is pretty much how I feel pertaining the whole RoS / Lucas Mann ordeal - I'll never oppose electronic music. Why should I apply the effort I willingly placed on learning an instrument that required it to a fallacious scale that weighs the validity of music based on the need to be a proficient performer? Thing is that this is a guy that is trying as hard as he can to be acknowledged as some super-guitarist by the tech community, and does so by blatantly lying about HOW the tracks were made and what is actually in those tracks, which isn't him playing the song at tempo at all.

Allow me to vent, though: it's a very sad thing to see that technique surpasses the contents where it is applied to to such extents in some people's minds that this sort of thing comes to be.


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## simonXsludge (Oct 15, 2013)

The guy has made $30 since I started reading this thread. Seems like there aren't too many people buying into his attempt to cash in on crowdfunding. Still legitimately baffled the guy says it's not Guitar Pro, but his playing that we're hearing in the video. He must think everyone's either stupid or deaf.


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## Drew (Oct 15, 2013)

Fred the Shred said:


> Allow me to vent, though: it's a very sad thing to see that technique surpasses the contents where it is applied to to such extents in some people's minds that this sort of thing comes to be.



Oh man, so much this. and I tend to LIKE technical music. Thanks Fred, for such a good summation.


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## Andrew91 (Oct 15, 2013)

This really irks me, Lucas Mann in general...
He acts like we're dumb with shit like this, and is a shitty person all around.
It sucks because Ian Bearer is a good vocalist and Joel Omans (2nd guitarist) is 100x better at guitar than him. Yet Lucas gets all the credit and basically ruins the talent of a band that has tons of potential.
Joel needs to start his own band.

One of the friendliest people I've ever met hate Lucas's guts. That speaks to his credibility IMO...


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## CreptorStatus (Oct 15, 2013)

So this kid needs 20,000$ to record a solo album of himself yet Hans Grossman of Obscura needs only 4000 Euros and his album would involve recording 9 different musicians (bass, vocals, a keyboardist and lead guitar parts from members Scar Symmetry, Aborted, Obscura, Jeff Loomis, Fountainhead and Ron Jarzombek) and a classical pianist actually covering an Obscura song?

Hmm, weird.

Its gonna be sick. Donate to Hans here:
&#39;The Radial Covenant&#39; solo album | Indiegogo


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Oct 15, 2013)

Andrew91 said:


> This really irks me, Lucas Mann in general...
> He acts like we're dumb with shit like this, and is a shitty person all around.
> It sucks because Ian Bearer is a good vocalist and Joel Omans (2nd guitarist) is 100x better at guitar than him. Yet Lucas gets all the credit and basically ruins the talent of a band that has tons of potential.
> Joel needs to start his own band.
> ...



just because someone you know is friendly doesn't like Lucas doesn't mean hes a bad person, everyone dislikes someone no matter how friendly they are. The dude has people hating on him 24/7 and im sure that would make most people pretty irritated and act like a bit of a douche at times. im fairly certain that Lucas writes most of the music so of course the most credit should go to him, not saying that Joel doesn't have any input on the writing process hell it could be 50/50 but that doesn't change the fact that most people know of RoS because of Lucas so of course he's going to receive most of the credit. The only time iv seen Joel play was on his YouTube channel which was some great playing and miles beyond my skill but Lucas' playing is much more impressive if there's a video of Joel killing it i would love to see it.


im not trying to defend Lucas' actions with the crowd funding thing because i think he went about it in pretty much the complete wrong way but it seems to me like hating on Lucas is the "cool" thing to do now that RoS has gotten more attention.


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## edsped (Oct 15, 2013)

I hope it will always be cool to hate people who deceitfully pass off fake shit as real.


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## Andrew91 (Oct 15, 2013)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> just because someone you know is friendly doesn't like Lucas doesn't mean hes a bad person, everyone dislikes someone no matter how friendly they are. The dude has people hating on him 24/7 and im sure that would make most people pretty irritated and act like a bit of a douche at times. im fairly certain that Lucas writes most of the music so of course the most credit should go to him, not saying that Joel doesn't have any input on the writing process hell it could be 50/50 but that doesn't change the fact that most people know of RoS because of Lucas so of course he's going to receive most of the credit. The only time iv seen Joel play was on his YouTube channel which was some great playing and miles beyond my skill but Lucas' playing is much more impressive if there's a video of Joel killing it i would love to see it.



It was based off of something that I can't remember, it was before Rings was popular.
Joel has videos on his facebook, also an ex vocalist from Rings can tell you that. I'm not going to name names because I don't want to really give them any trouble.

This whole thing has been blown out of proportion, I don't like commenting on this really at all.

I'm not trying to say he's a scumbag, but he has a reputation as such for dickish things, and obviously this isn't too great either...but honestly I think we should all just stop perpetually talking about this.

Also to whom it may concern, next time please don't post my face on metalsucks, eh?

++ The truth shouldn't be considered hating.


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## abandonist (Oct 15, 2013)

Here's my take without any of my usual vitriol.

When I first heard Rings of Saturn I dismissed it as nonsense, but then I listened again and actually dug it a bit. It's pretty bizarre, and certainly not the best thing around, but it has some value.

That was before I knew anything about any shenanigans. 

Now, I can say I still dig on that Dingir record a bit, but their artistic merit has been called into question. I'll not purchase another album, or sing their praises.


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## darren (Oct 15, 2013)

no_dice said:


> Writing with guitar pro is perfectly okay in my book, but if you're doing it to purposely write shit you can't play, then it's like buying shit on layaway. The song isn't complete, in my personal opinion, until you can play and record it legit.



My thoughts exactly.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Oct 15, 2013)

edsped said:


> I hope it will always be cool to hate people who deceitfully pass off fake shit as real.



We still hate on autotune, so don't worry.


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## NaYoN (Oct 15, 2013)

Nats said:


> Nope, they're idiots. Enjoy his GP6 files, though





Drew said:


> I think we just found someone who donated.
> 
> Don't worry, bro. If you really dig the tone he'll probably release a Guitar Pro preset pack for anyone who donates over $750.




You guys are funny. I didn't donate, I already have access to his stuff 

I don't pay money to music-related crowdfunders. It's clear that some people funded this though, so some people clearly don't care.


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## abandonist (Oct 15, 2013)

Here's a question for you.

Do /you/ care about the alleged hijinx?

For instance, I like the Carthage record, but if I were to learn it was nothing but polished sloppiness I might change my tune. Is it legit? Was it all punched in? 

I'm the type of dude that record with 2-3 mics in a room, live, and calls it a day. Were you protooled out? I would definitely lose respect for anyone who punches in all their parts.

That's what's really at question through all this in my eyes.

So, are you legit, or not?


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## NaYoN (Oct 15, 2013)

abandonist said:


> Here's a question for you.
> 
> Do /you/ care about the alleged hijinx?
> 
> ...



I wasn't in Carthage when guitars for most of the album were recorded. I contributed to the record only in songwriting and vocal performance, I did not have the time to actually record guitars except for the intro track you see in the studio video (which was literally the last thing we recorded). 

If you listen to the Carthage album carefully, you might hear the slop that's there. Sometimes it makes me cringe because some notes are a bit off, but then I'm happy that the natural feel is there.

Personally, I'm a fan of natural sounding recording/production. But I don't begrudge those who aren't, I really don't care as long as music is music, and I understand that not everyone likes the same things as others.

That being said, thanks for making this a thinly veiled personal attack on me, but unfortunately it won't work for the reasons outlined in this post.


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## abandonist (Oct 15, 2013)

Not at all a personal attack, I was genuinely curious.


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## NaYoN (Oct 15, 2013)

abandonist said:


> Not at all a personal attack, I was genuinely curious.



For example, during Perception Fails (one of the songs I contributed in writing to, along with Maelstrom (which is almost entirely written by me) and Pushing Forward), you can hear the "moving your hands along the string as you change chords" sound (does that have a name?) on the rhythm guitar during the solo. During The Furthest Thing's melodic riff after the first verse, there's a time where one of the tracks briefly misses the note and slides into the correct note etc.

Carthage's ethos for live playing is "fun first", and you can probably see that in our live videos as well. We tend to think a fun performance that engages the audience is better than just standing there and being super tight. Personally, I'm more of a fan of being tight and playing to a click etc, but as a band we strive to capture that "live" feel so I go along with it.

When I played with MetalBuddah's band Vela we played to a click and that felt way more at home for me, but that's just personal preference. In my solo album I will definitely keep it as tight as I can for guitars, but I intentionally play a bit sloppily because I love that sound in oldschool death metal, which is a huge influence for me. Most of the vocal tracks in my solo album are a single run-through of a song, because I feel that I can capture the energy better like that.


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## The Omega Cluster (Oct 15, 2013)

To sum it all (I haven't replied in a while, but kept reading).

Mann leads us to believe he actually recorded this.
Although it is likely that he can play the song, he probably wouldn't do it as clean/tight.
The amount he wants to raise is too damn high.
He doesn't justify clearly his expenses.
People would be far more empathic to him and his project if he was being honest about it and his playing.

Mann should be more humble and down to earth.


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## Narrillnezzurh (Oct 15, 2013)

Drew said:


> I think we just found someone who donated.
> 
> Don't worry, bro. If you really dig the tone he'll probably release a Guitar Pro preset pack for anyone who donates over $750.



There's a difference between liking someone's music and agreeing with how it's presented. I think this is an extremely shitty thing for him to do, and I think he deserves all the hate he's getting for it, but I like his music.


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## SmackyChot (Dec 16, 2013)

lololol

https://www.facebook.com/RingsofSaturnband/posts/10151994719248463


For the non-facebookers



> "Just wanted to send out a big thank you to everyone who supported this project. Unfortunately, the funding goal was not reached in time (ended recently) and without proper funding, the music simply cannot come into fruition. Since the goal wasn't met, all contributions have been returned by the Indiegogo website.
> 
> If the goal had been reached, I was really hoping to use the opportunity to showcase the many ideas I had apart from Rings of Saturn and create more music for everyone to listen to and enjoy. I had already invested a lot of time, money, and effort into creating this demo for you guys, and it's unfortunate that nothing really came out of it besides a lot of widespread hate, rumors, and a mass influx of dislikes on my video haha.
> 
> ...




Lucky for him most(see comments sections of FB) of the fans are sceney teens who are trying to be br00tal by listening to RoS, and don't understand when he is grossly overcharging his crowdfunding under the guise of "making a quality album".

Does he not know how to DIY? It's become quite easy these days.


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## DVRP (Dec 16, 2013)

SmackyChot said:


> lololol
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/RingsofSaturnband/posts/10151994719248463
> 
> ...



ahha Im trolling those comments so hard. 

Yeah he totally is missing the point of why he gets flamed. 

The metal community values musicianship above all else, at least that's how Ive always seen it.


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## Necris (Dec 16, 2013)

Only $18,940 off.  Generally I don't take joy in others failure, but in this case I'm certainly making an exception.


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## DVRP (Dec 16, 2013)

I pooped when I read this " isn't even used in the realm of recording at all. " talking about guitar pro. 

Its like most the bands I know in real life, tab there shit in guitar pro for the studio. And its a HUGE part of the DIY approach to recording imo.

AND I find it hysterically funny that he addresses all this after NOT making his goal ahhahahahah.


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## SmackyChot (Dec 16, 2013)

I am new as hell to the DIY stuff. Still learning mixing and mastering, but it is NOT super hard. He could easily learn. 

If he really wanted to make that solo album, he could. Not even learn himself, but get some at home studios to do the work for much much less. It already sounds processed into oblivion. So it's not like he is going for the "raw organic studio tube amp tone", thus he could track it all digitally and not need a full sound studio lined with hookers and blow.


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## -One- (Dec 16, 2013)

I was following that post, but he's constantly deleting any posts (mine included) that reference the fact that he was overcharging on his IndieGoGo, and blocking people from his page (again, I'm one of those people). I actually enjoy RoS, but I definitely won't be seeing them live again or picking up their third album.


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## mcsalty (Dec 16, 2013)

I've met the guy a few times and have even opened for RoS; every time I've ever talked to him he was a super nice guy and great to talk to. Dude's a really good player regardless of how you feel about his music, and I'm sure that he's fully capable of playing the "demo" song, but the audio is CLEARLY straight from Guitar Pro 6. How he's trying to pass it off as anything else is beyond me, but the fact that people buy into it is even worse. Nothing against the guy personally, but don't sell me an outhouse and tell me it's the Taj Mahal.


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## DVRP (Dec 16, 2013)

Yup, I was banned too hahahaha Found out after a friend tagged me in it again.


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## -One- (Dec 16, 2013)

Just got onto a buddy's account to check it out again. There were 100+ posts when I posted, now there's only 44. If Lucas didn't want people to trash talk RoS, he could handle things more professionally, instead of removing any and all criticism of himself and his work, and blocking its source.


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## Winspear (Dec 16, 2013)

mcsalty said:


> audio is CLEARLY straight from Guitar Pro 6. How he's trying to pass it off as anything else is beyond me, but the fact that people buy into it is even worse.



Yeah haha. I just watched this video again and I'm open to the idea that it cooould actually be a recording rather than GP RSE, if he'd used that kind of tone - but even if it is, it's without a doubt recorded at a very slow tempo and sped up. You just don't get that sound any other way. 
It's hilarious he's still lying about it but I suppose he's aware that only a small percentage of people_ actually_ know what they are taking about haha


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 16, 2013)

^He's lied about his playing so much it looks like he might be starting to believe it himself.

Open up guitar pro and listen to how every note is down picked. Now watch his video and hear how every single note sounds down picked. There is absolutely no variation in pick attack or tone which you would get from up picking. This is a clear giveaway that its either a midi track or super edited note-by-note.


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## petereanima (Dec 16, 2013)

Guys, seriously, I know there is a lot of love for ROS around here, but no one here can tell me he listened to this and think that this is his playing you are hearing. That's guitar-pro's midi-machinegun at it's finest.


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## xCaptainx (Dec 16, 2013)

How could you pass those bends off in that video as anything but midi/GP5 is beyond me


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## breadtruck (Dec 16, 2013)

He spent 1 grand on making that demo track??? If that's anywhere near true then he got HUGELY ripped off. I would LOVE to ask Zeuss if that demo song was mixed and mastered by him in his studio. If I was in Zeuss' shoes I'd be insulted for Lucas to suggest that the song is a professional product of mine.


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## Nats (Dec 16, 2013)

He should change his last name because clearly "Mann" isn't fitting anymore.


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## BrailleDecibel (Dec 16, 2013)

I just opened the video again, and had it minimized in another tab while I was surfing around on here...especially when you don't see him holding a guitar and miming along, it just sounds even less like a real guitar.


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## DVRP (Dec 16, 2013)

Got a decent discussion going on my fb status. I truly believe he's either 1 a compulsive liar(or becoming one) 2 Is delusional and believes what hes saying 3 Refuses to change what he said for fear that we will all go I told you so. (hes been regurgitating the same shit since the start.)


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## tacotiklah (Dec 16, 2013)

DVRP said:


> I pooped when I read this " isn't even used in the realm of recording at all. " talking about guitar pro.
> 
> Its like most the bands I know in real life, tab there shit in guitar pro for the studio. And its a HUGE part of the DIY approach to recording imo.
> 
> AND I find it hysterically funny that he addresses all this after NOT making his goal ahhahahahah.



I program drum parts in GPro and export the MIDI to Reaper, where I use drumkit from hell to get my drum tracks. Gpro is the basis for any recording I do. I suspect the same holds true for other people as well given the number of people that have an ear for what GPro's guitars sound like and were able to call Mann out on his bullshit. So we can add this to his list of attempts to bullshit the metal community and the music industry.


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## The Omega Cluster (Dec 16, 2013)

Nats said:


> He should change his last name because clearly "Mann" isn't fitting anymore.



That may sound rude, but I suggest "Lucas Fagg".

More on the subject, maybe if he had been honest about the project from the start, said that this is a crappy demo with a crappy video showcasing some of his ideas for his solo album, that he spent something like 50 ¢ on the video (we gotta give him that, electricity and internet have a cost), put a goal of something around 1 000 $, and say that even if the goal isn't reached, the album will be done anyway but maybe with less budget, if he wasn't such a dick with people in general who don't see things the way he does, and if he was honest about his obscure recording techniques maybe.... JUST maybe this could've been cool, and worthy of my money.


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## kevdes93 (Dec 16, 2013)

i laughed out loud when i saw that he raised only a little over a grand


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## Necris (Dec 16, 2013)

Frankly, I'm a bit jealous, I could never get a group of people to throw $1,060 at me just by miming to a guitar pro file.


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## Nats (Dec 16, 2013)

kevdes93 said:


> i laughed out loud when i saw that he raised only a little over a grand



That was nice of his mom.


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## Eptaceros (Dec 16, 2013)

I really hope we get to hear Zuess's side to this, now that Lucas dragged him into his lies.


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## Jackzaa (Dec 16, 2013)

He claims it's an axe fx... If that were the honest case, couldn't he have just shared his presets and put his lack of crowdfunded money where his mouth is?

Or am I missing something...?


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 16, 2013)

not buying it....he's either a liar or he's an idiot, my guess is a little of both.


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## jeleopard (Dec 16, 2013)

Really a shame, imho.

I like the music >.>


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## Dyingsea (Dec 17, 2013)

What a disservice to Axe FX to claim that tone came from that modeler.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 17, 2013)

Maybe it's a clean tone from the Axe blended with GP MIDI... 

Yea I played devil's advocate 9 pages in... Wanna fight about it?


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## Loomer (Dec 17, 2013)

Okay. That video damned near killed me


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 17, 2013)

Eptaceros said:


> I really hope we get to hear Zuess's side to this, now that Lucas dragged him into his lies.



This.....He/They (RoS) probably make engineers and producers sign NDAs before they work with them now.


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## DVRP (Dec 17, 2013)

Im also curious about how the rest of the members in ROS feel about this haha


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## AyrtonS (Dec 17, 2013)

I think he's just snotty. He probably thought to himself "They're all going to pick on me for playing half speed? I'll show them. Next time I won't even play guitar."


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

Heard that shit that he is saying about the recording on his video now? He is saying that the recording on the video is the "professionally mixed and mastered track done by Zeuss". Dude....it...no...just no...it doesn't even sound like a real guitar. The consistent lack of dynamics, consistent "downwards" even pick attack, the mechanical note subdivisions (no ringing out even?), and the overall "lack of tone"....yeah...obviously it is programmed.

For all we know, he could've exported the Guitar Pro file as a MIDI, then plugged in into a shitty guitar emulation plugin. From there, into an amp VST plugin and then a VST cab impulse loader...but it sounds so terrible that I seriously doubt that he did the last two steps on that I just listed. So let's leave those off....

-.-'

And I sincerely agree with GunpointMetal's comment regarding the NDA signing. Man, legal shit...


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

DVRP said:


> Im also curious about how the rest of the members in ROS feel about this haha



They support him.
And why wouldn't they?
They all are kinda a bunch of typical high-school drinking pothead buddies.....granted I've seen the guys cleaning up the past few months and am proud of them, but still.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

breadtruck said:


> He spent 1 grand on making that demo track??? If that's anywhere near true then he got HUGELY ripped off. I would LOVE to ask Zeuss if that demo song was mixed and mastered by him in his studio. If I was in Zeuss' shoes I'd be insulted for Lucas to suggest that the song is a professional product of mine.



I got Zeuss on Facebook. (Chris "Zeuss" Harris). He didn't answer, but he's read my messages. I tag him everytime there is a debate on Lucas' video (in the comments) and he still hasn't answered......

I'm smelling some BS.


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## dethFNmetal (Dec 17, 2013)

i havent been following this thread, but this guy is a real piece of work, not in a good way either.


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## Necris (Dec 17, 2013)

GunpointMetal said:


> This.....He/They (RoS) probably make engineers and producers sign NDAs before they work with them now.


 Wouldn't surprise me in the least.



DVRP said:


> Im also curious about how the rest of the members in ROS feel about this haha


 
The way I see it they really can't win regardless of what they do, so I don't see I don't see why they wouldn't support him; if not because they actually want to then because not exposing his dishonesty is less damaging to Rings Of Saturn as a whole and as individual musicians.

They're a band who have built a reputation for playing extremely technically challenging, fast music and they have been fighting rumors of recording their music at half speed, tracking note by note and generally using studio trickery to misrepresent their skill for years. 

This video and his claims have only brought all of those rumors back up and provided more evidence for people who already believe the band to be frauds, _but_ those rumors haven't harmed their fan base or their individual reputations as musicians much on their own.

If Lucas were to come clean and admit that he hadn't performed, or even actually recorded the music in the video after months of lying about it while the the remaining members of ROS stood by in silence that admission would all but confirm the previous rumors about Rings of Saturn in the eyes of many people and brand the entire band as liars and frauds.
That is something which isn't only damaging to the band, but also to the band members reputations and potentially their careers as musicians.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

Necris said:


> Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Something you kinda brought up.....let's say the other rumors were dismissed. (Because ROS actually CAN play their shit live.) But let's say that the other rumors were dismissed about the recording half-speed, and studio trickery, etc.

Well now, this piss-poor example DOES bring all of it back up, but think about how the human mind works....we find one thing negative, and via theory of relativity, we assume the rest to all be negative.

Some listeners and critics will see this as a condemning blow and establish a relation/connection between this and the past rumors. (What I mean is, they'll take this piss-poor example and say: "See look! I told you that they cheated!" - And even if ROS cheated in studio or not, now this can act as a validating confirmation of sorts to all the listeners. Like I said, we find one thing negative, and suddenly everything else associated with it is negative too.)


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

I do rather find it hilarious that it didn't receive all the funds. I mean, the number of ROS fans...if only one quarter of their fans donated $1 each. 

But I also think he went about asking for the money the wrong way (via this video and via just how he was "verbally" asking).


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

I think that, in a way, Lucas Mann is like the Miley Cyrus of the metal scene.

I mean, purposefully doing shit wrong to get publicity (whether positive or negative, attention IS attention), and letting it go so far to the point that they have convinced themselves that their wrongs are actually some kind of "new-age" rights.

-.-'


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## thrsher (Dec 17, 2013)

i recently played a show with them, i got the venue real early and they showed up before all the other touring acts. i was sitting in the back while they all argued about band shit, its 3 against 1 i will tell you that. crazy the shit they aired out right in front of me.


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## Hyacinth (Dec 17, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> Something you kinda brought up.....let's say the other rumors were dismissed. (Because ROS actually CAN play their shit live.) But let's say that the other rumors were dismissed about the recording half-speed, and studio trickery, etc.
> 
> Well now, this piss-poor example DOES bring all of it back up, but think about how the human mind works....we find one thing negative, and via theory of relativity, we assume the rest to all be negative.
> 
> Some listeners and critics will see this as a condemning blow and establish a relation/connection between this and the past rumors. (What I mean is, they'll take this piss-poor example and say: "See look! I told you that they cheated!" - And even if ROS cheated in studio or not, now this can act as a validating confirmation of sorts to all the listeners. Like I said, we find one thing negative, and suddenly everything else associated with it is negative too.)



That's not an example of Einstein's relativity, just an example of using the actions of an individual to judge other actions by that individual. Also, if Lucas recorded at half speed et cetera in his personal project why wouldn't the same be true of Rings of Saturn? Especially if the rumors were about Rings of Saturn in the first place. If you knew someone always cheated at Monopoly, wouldn't you expect them to cheat at checkers too?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

MatthewLeisher said:


> That's not an example of Einstein's relativity, just an example of using the actions of an individual to judge other actions by that individual. Also, if Lucas recorded at half speed et cetera in his personal project why wouldn't the same be true of Rings of Saturn? Especially if the rumors were about Rings of Saturn in the first place. If you knew someone always cheated at Monopoly, wouldn't you expect them to cheat at checkers too?



Naw bro, I'm not talking about Einstein's theory of relativity. Open your ears/eyes.

I'm talking about relative connections via association:
A=B, and B=C; therefore, A=C.

Confirmed cheating in Lucas' solo act + supposed rumors of cheating in ROS = confirmed cheating in ROS (the mindset many now have).

You get what I'm saying?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

thrsher said:


> i recently played a show with them, i got the venue real early and they showed up before all the other touring acts. i was sitting in the back while they all argued about band shit, its 3 against 1 i will tell you that. crazy the shit they aired out right in front of me.



CARE TO DISCLOSE?

You mean Ian, Joel, and Jesse versus Lucas?

See, they always post on Facebook (and publically proclaim) what good dudes they are to each other and how they are bros and everything is fine and great.


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## Necris (Dec 17, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> Naw bro, I'm not talking about Einstein's theory of relativity. Open your ears/eyes.
> 
> I'm talking about relative connections via association:
> A=B, and B=C; therefore, A=C.
> ...



That's a logical fallacy that you're describing, there are so many I'm too lazy to try to remember which one it is, it may be a combination of a couple.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 17, 2013)

Necris said:


> That's a logical fallacy that you're describing, there are so many I'm too lazy to try to remember which one it is, it may be a combination of a couple.



Exactly my point there, philosophy major. xD


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## Hyacinth (Dec 18, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> Naw bro, I'm not talking about Einstein's theory of relativity. Open your ears/eyes.
> 
> I'm talking about relative connections via association:
> A=B, and B=C; therefore, A=C.
> ...



I've never heard of anyone talk about a theory of relativity that isn't Einstein's. What's the theory of relativity that you mentioned? It's not confirmed but it doesn't make sense that he would only cheat in one of his endeavors. If he can play ROS material he can play anything else that he writes. If he cheated to create ROS material, then he most likely cheated to create his solo material. No?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

MatthewLeisher said:


> If he cheated to create ROS material, then he most likely cheated to create his solo material. No?



That's what I've been saying! -.-'


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## Hyacinth (Dec 18, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> That's what I've been saying! -.-'



What the fvck I thought you were arguing the other way!


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## djyngwie (Dec 18, 2013)

The property, that A being related to B, and B being related to C imples A being related to C is known as transitivity. (Not the case here).


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## -One- (Dec 18, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> CARE TO DISCLOSE?
> 
> You mean Ian, Joel, and Jesse versus Lucas?
> 
> See, they always post on Facebook (and publically proclaim) what good dudes they are to each other and how they are bros and everything is fine and great.


When I saw them over the summer, Ian, Joel, and Jesse all hung out backstage, while Lucas hung out at the merch table. When Lucas stopped running merch and went backstage, the rest of the band came to the merch table.
Not only did I get the vibe that none of the other members of RoS even like Lucas, but Lucas' performance that night ended up being majorly sloppy. He seems like the weakest link of the band (let's face it, Joel's a way better guitarist, Ian is an _incredible_ vocalist, and, well... Jesse Beahler), and I would be more than happy to see them continue without him.


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## DVRP (Dec 18, 2013)

thrsher said:


> i recently played a show with them, i got the venue real early and they showed up before all the other touring acts. i was sitting in the back while they all argued about band shit, its 3 against 1 i will tell you that. crazy the shit they aired out right in front of me.



See this is my point, there is no way the rest of the dudes would be ok with all of this behind closed doors. As someone said if he came clean it could be damning to the other members careers as they get lumped in with him. And Im assuming that's the only reason they put up with it.

I mean if Boo can all band together and kick out the only member that can actually PLAY every bit of thier material, why the hell can't these guys kick out the asshat who can't play and is a compulsive liar?


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Dec 18, 2013)

well clearly he can play if RoS can play live


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## anomynous (Dec 18, 2013)

DVRP said:


> I mean if Boo can all band together and kick out the only member that can actually PLAY every bit of thier material, why the hell can't these guys kick out the asshat who can't play and is a compulsive liar?



Because Rings of Saturn is his band, whether we like it or not


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## crg123 (Dec 18, 2013)

AyrtonS said:


> I think he's just snotty. He probably thought to himself "They're all going to pick on me for playing half speed? I'll show them. Next time I won't even play guitar."




 that's amazing


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## -One- (Dec 18, 2013)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> well clearly he can play if RoS can play live


I've only seen them once, so take what I say with a grain of salt, but when I saw them, Lucas' performance was incredibly sloppy. He hit dead notes frequently, and was constantly drifting off-tempo. That said, Joel and Ian were 100% spot on, and Jesse was a little sloppy, but not bad (it was one of his first shows with RoS, so I can't blame him for being a little off).


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

-One- said:


> When I saw them over the summer, Ian, Joel, and Jesse all hung out backstage, while Lucas hung out at the merch table. When Lucas stopped running merch and went backstage, the rest of the band came to the merch table.
> Not only did I get the vibe that none of the other members of RoS even like Lucas, but Lucas' performance that night ended up being majorly sloppy. He seems like the weakest link of the band (let's face it, Joel's a way better guitarist, Ian is an _incredible_ vocalist, and, well... Jesse Beahler), and I would be more than happy to see them continue without him.



DAYYYYUMMM! 

Indeed, but ROS was HIS brainchild...so odds are....well...yeah know....our boy hasn't been practicing.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 18, 2013)

djyngwie said:


> The property, that A being related to B, and B being related to C imples A being related to C is known as transitivity. (Not the case here).


Algebra... How does it work?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

Konfyouzd said:


> Algebra... How does it work?



 ....babaloo?

<.<

>.>


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## thatguyupthere (Dec 18, 2013)

I agree that he is DEFINITELY playing this over something like GP. he probably synced up the video with the audio so it definitely wont sound like that in person. but I don't really have any doubts he can play it. you can see in the video that he is obviously playing it, I mean c'mon he's in rings of Saturn and the licks in their albums are crazy. also his price is a little crazy too.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

thatguyupthere said:


> I agree that he is DEFINITELY playing this over something like GP. he probably synced up the video with the audio so it definitely wont sound like that in person. but I don't really have any doubts he can play it. you can see in the video that he is obviously playing it, I mean c'mon he's in rings of Saturn and the licks in their albums are crazy. also his price is a little crazy too.



With that said, I did exactly what he did (I made my own EP and I recorded and produced everything, then had it professionally mixed and mastered at a studio).

Total project cost: $500.

Suck it, Mann. (At least I don't have to worry about all my stuff sounding realistic......BECAUSE IT IS REAL! )


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## thatguyupthere (Dec 18, 2013)

yeah^^ and another thing about that is you probably did it with YOUR OWN money that you worked for. not money you got people to donate. lucas is pretty much doing it with other peoples money and none of his own. if you have high standards then by all means, spend *as much* as you want.. but asking for people to pay ALL of his expenses is just ridiculous. if you want 20,000 you better have *at least* a half of that money on hand because even though he wrote the actual music, he cannot truly call it his unless he put HIS OWN money and hard work FOR that money into the project. that to me makes up 3/4 of what a musician should be and is the most important part of making it a product of your own. clearly in his case, this is not the case

HOWEVER i don't doubt his playing abilities, even though its fake on the video. im sure he was playing it in real life. take rings of Saturn as example. ive never seen them live but im assuming lucas wouldn't write licks he cant play and then go and try and play them live, the guys wrist is freakin insane when it comes to odd triplet patterns and his fingers are just as insane. pulling off all that crazy physically demanding stuff live probably takes a toll so no wonder he messes up. nobody is a machine, we get tired. especially after a long set of the fast tech shit they write. but i do disagree on letting guitar pro take all the credit for you. NOBODY can play that clean and eliminate all string noise without editing or...guitar pro. still, im sure he can play it. just sloppily, but that's hard shit to do so no wonder it would be sloppy!


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## Malkav (Dec 18, 2013)

thatguyupthere said:


> but I don't really have any doubts he can play it. you can see in the video that he is obviously playing it, I mean c'mon he's in rings of Saturn and the licks in their albums are crazy. also his price is a little crazy too.



I have every doubt in the world that he can play it, you can see in the video that his hand movements don't correctly follow the audio being produced, there's even a moment where a note sustains for longer than he holds onto it, which means he'd be so sloppy that one begs the question why is he trying to play things this far above his skill level anyway?


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## Malkav (Dec 18, 2013)

thatguyupthere said:


> HOWEVER i don't doubt his playing abilities, even though its fake on the video. im sure he was playing it in real life. take rings of Saturn as example. ive never seen them live but im assuming lucas wouldn't write licks he cant play and then go and try and play them live, the guys wrist is freakin insane when it comes to odd triplet patterns and his fingers are just as insane. pulling off all that crazy physically demanding stuff live probably takes a toll so no wonder he messes up. nobody is a machine, we get tired. especially after a long set of the fast tech shit they write. but i do disagree on letting guitar pro take all the credit for you. NOBODY can play that clean and eliminate all string noise without editing or...guitar pro. still, im sure he can play it. just sloppily, but that's hard shit to do so no wonder it would be sloppy!



So he's excused because nobody is a machine, and yet there are lots of other guitarists who can play up to this level and beyond and pull it off live, heck Shawn Lane could play so fast it sometimes could legitimitely sound like a computer was having a fit at you through it's dial up modem, and most of it would be improvised, but it's okay for this guy to be sloppy. Just nope, if he can't play it he shouldn't have put it down in a recording, there are tons of guitarists pulling off far more difficult fretboard acrobatics and doing so without issue.


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## DVRP (Dec 18, 2013)

Most of ROS's music screams that it was written without a guitar in hand and just on Guitar pro. And then learnt after.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Dec 18, 2013)

and what is the problem with that?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

Malkav said:


> So he's excused because nobody is a machine, and yet there are lots of other guitarists who can play up to this level and beyond and pull it off live, heck Shawn Lane could play so fast it sometimes could legitimitely sound like a computer was having a fit at you through it's dial up modem, and most of it would be improvised, but it's okay for this guy to be sloppy. Just nope, if he can't play it he shouldn't have put it down in a recording, there are tons of guitarists pulling off far more difficult fretboard acrobatics and doing so without issue.



I used to be able to do that ol' Lane diminished lick that sounded like a computer going nuts back when I had my lil' Vigier Lane Master Excalibur.

I miss it so much... but it just didn't have enough strings.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

DVRP said:


> Most of ROS's music screams that it was written without a guitar in hand and just on Guitar pro. And then learnt after.



Lucas has already addressed that the method you described is how he has written it. He writes complex stuff and then just learns it. (Check out the ROS tabs available on Ultimate-Guitar.....they are his that he posted for the rest of us.)


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2013)

The fact that he outright and publicly stated that it wasn't GP just gives me a huge headache. Who does this guy think he is?


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 18, 2013)

loqtrall said:


> The fact that he outright and publicly stated that it wasn't GP just gives me a huge headache. Who does this guy think he is?



Ummm....Barack Obama?  Able to get away with any obvious lies that he feeds to people?


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## loqtrall (Dec 18, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> Ummm....Barack Obama?  Able to get away with any obvious lies that he feeds to people?



I bet Barack could actually play that song.


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## RagtimeDandy (Dec 19, 2013)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> and what is the problem with that?



That it sounds like a machine instead of a human. It's so obvious in their music, which sounds absolutely artificial the majority of the time.


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## noUser01 (Dec 19, 2013)

Honestly this dude is just becoming more and more of a joke...

The guy blames the metal community for the fact that people didn't give a damn about his solo project, saying we all need to "step up". How about piss off? People like Lucas are the WORST PART of the metal community: people who trash the community when they don't get what they want.

For those who say that they can play their stuff live, that's not the entire truth. From what I've seen (keep in mind I've admittedly never seen them in-person, just a lot of live videos on YouTube) the other guys do well live, Lucas... he gets by. On average I'd say he hits about 65% of the notes. Is that good enough? For me, no. If that was my accuracy live I would work on NOTHING other than my band's material until I could play it standing up no problem. In fact that's what I do, and what most of us do. I wrote a solo for one of my band's songs that has a lick at the end that I can play where it's "good enough" live (clean enough, but not like STUDIO clean) and that's what I've been working on daily since I wrote it a month ago. I want that lick to be totally within the realm of what I can play cleanly and efficiently. It seems Lucas has settled for "Meh, I can kinda get close."

Then the guy has the nerve to say that no $20,000 = no album. If you're going to say "No, I don't want to learn to do it myself I just don't have the time" that's totally fine, and I understand that. But saying "I don't want to spend less than this much on my album" screams arrogance to me, as if his music is too good to be recorded in anything less than a professional high end studio. Would it really kill you to record DI's at home and save some studio time? Or to use programmed drums?

This guy is frankly insulting, when there's tons of other guys out there trying to make their name in music honestly, and he takes what little fame he has and tries to abuse it. He blames everyone in the metal community when he doesn't get what he wants, he says the rumours are dumb but makes no attempt to prove them wrong, I'm sick of it. He's being a dick to the fans, and he's being a dick to everyone else in the metal community and he's getting what he deserves. 

I don't much give a flying ...., Lukey Boy.


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## RagtimeDandy (Dec 19, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> Honestly this dude is just becoming more and more of a joke...
> 
> The guy blames the metal community for the fact that people didn't give a damn about his solo project, saying we all need to "step up". How about piss off? People like Lucas are the WORST PART of the metal community: people who trash the community when they don't get what they want.
> 
> ...


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## Captain Butterscotch (Dec 19, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> Honestly this dude is just becoming more and more of a joke...
> 
> The guy blames the metal community for the fact that people didn't give a damn about his solo project, saying we all need to "step up". How about piss off? People like Lucas are the WORST PART of the metal community: people who trash the community when they don't get what they want.
> 
> ...


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Dec 19, 2013)

RagtimeDandy said:


> That it sounds like a machine instead of a human. It's so obvious in their music, which sounds absolutely artificial the majority of the time.



considering how insane their music is im going to go ahead and say that that's the effect he's going for. there are loads a bands who tab stuff out in GP, its just easier for some people to write first and then learn it. as long as they can play it it shouldn't matter how they wrote it.

if you're expecting some soulful shredding with huge bends thrown in there i don't know why you'd listen to RoS for that, the whole theme of this band is to be inhuman sounding and super over the top.


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## Necris (Dec 19, 2013)

loqtrall said:


> I bet Barack could actually play that song.



Barack Obama to replace Lucas Mann in Rings of Saturn.


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## warhead (Dec 19, 2013)

BIG ND SWEATY said:


> considering how insane their music is im going to go ahead and say that that's the effect he's going for. there are loads a bands who tab stuff out in GP, its just easier for some people to write first and then learn it. as long as they can play it it shouldn't matter how they wrote it.
> 
> if you're expecting some soulful shredding with huge bends thrown in there i don't know why you'd listen to RoS for that, the whole theme of this band is to be inhuman sounding and super over the top.



yeah....and besides......a lot of classical music was written before it got played........


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 19, 2013)

Necris said:


> Barack Obama to replace Lucas Mann in Rings of Saturn.



This. ^

Side note, this thread kinda freaks me out because my name is Lucas too.  Ever get that feeling... 

(But at least I got a whole EP done at my place, DI guitars and keys and programmed drums), then professionally mixed and mastered. And the total outing was only $500. I still think I'm doing better than this other Lucas whom we are all bashing.


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## JMP2203 (Dec 19, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> On average I'd say he hits about 65% of the notes.



wow really?


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 19, 2013)

loqtrall said:


> I bet Barack could actually play that song.





"Yes he can!"


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## Fiction (Dec 19, 2013)

Because money breeds creativity... What a ....ing scumbag.


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## no_dice (Dec 19, 2013)

The saddest thing to me isn't even that he (most likely) faked his music. It's that he decided if he didn't get 20 grand, that it wasn't even worth making the music.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 19, 2013)

^


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## -One- (Dec 19, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> This. ^
> 
> Side note, this thread kinda freaks me out because my name is Lucas too.  Ever get that feeling...
> 
> (But at least I got a whole EP done at my place, DI guitars and keys and programmed drums), then professionally mixed and mastered. And the total outing was only $500. I still think I'm doing better than this other Lucas whom we are all bashing.


He gives all of us Lucases in the metal scene a bad name


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## PyramidSmasher (Dec 19, 2013)

Okay so I have no issues or whatever with this guy like many do...

But why act like such a salty bitch when you ask for an unrealistic amount of money (in multiples of 10 grand...) and no one wants to just hand you it so you can make your own personal dream come true? I want 30 grand to sit around and masturbate all day while we're taking requests


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 19, 2013)

-One- said:


> He gives all of us Lucases in the metal scene a bad name



We must unite against this abomination!

This kid needs to go back to his room at his mommy's home, curl up in his corner, and cry like the little bitch that he acts like. This is what happens when you are a stuck-up punk and never make it out of high school, guys...


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## PyramidSmasher (Dec 19, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> We must unite against this abomination!
> 
> This kid needs to go back to his room at his mommy's home, curl up in his corner, and cry like the little bitch that he acts like. This is what happens when you are a stuck-up punk and never make it out of high school, guys...



Are you a lucas too?? Haha I never even noticed that Lucas Mann has my name...


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## thatguyupthere (Dec 19, 2013)

Malkav said:


> So he's excused because nobody is a machine, and yet there are lots of other guitarists who can play up to this level and beyond and pull it off live, heck Shawn Lane could play so fast it sometimes could legitimitely sound like a computer was having a fit at you through it's dial up modem, and most of it would be improvised, but it's okay for this guy to be sloppy. Just nope, if he can't play it he shouldn't have put it down in a recording, there are tons of guitarists pulling off far more difficult fretboard acrobatics and doing so without issue.



ok I see your point and I shouldn't have said nobody can play like that, it was a very inaccurate statement and im sorry for my brief ignorance. shit, paul gilbert and Guthrie govan can rape the damn fretboard and get away w/o jail time and tons of other virtuoso guitarists as well so it was an ignorant thing of me to say. but maybe lucas is excluded from the writing process and learns it like a week before the show haha so he's sloppy. still, the guy's a better guitarist than I am at the moment......at the moment


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## noUser01 (Dec 19, 2013)

I love looking at the RoS page since every comment is positive, not a single criticism... Someone has definitely been deleting comments.


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## anomynous (Dec 19, 2013)

Lucas Mann & Al Mu'min need to start a band together. Call it Mu'Mann.


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## Greyvy (Dec 19, 2013)

maybe if the didn't play pointless wank people would feel inclined to donate. nobody wants more of that shit


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## noUser01 (Dec 19, 2013)

anomynous said:


> Lucas Mann & Al Mu'min need to start a band together. Call it Mu'Mann.



Difference is, Al can play his shit now.


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## Jackzaa (Dec 19, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> I love looking at the RoS page since every comment is positive, not a single criticism... Someone has definitely been deleting comments.



Deleted mine in under 5 mins. I just find it funny, he keeps all the ".... the hatorz ur amazing lucassxoxo" comments and makes these claims, basically saying "if you don't believe me I don't care"

.. Then he spends all this time constantly monitoring the hundreds of comments they get and deleting anything negative. That just _screams_ "I'm telling the truth". I basically said "this is how you can prove what you're saying and show us it's not really GP: *insert methods here*"

That was gone in a flash. Too logical or something. It seems his mindset is along the lines of "IF YOURE NOT COMPLIMENTING ME, YOURE LYING AND MUST BE SILENCED"

Dishonour on you, dishonour on your cow


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## simonXsludge (Dec 19, 2013)

This Lucas Mann drama is my favourite internet guitarist drama yet. This guy and his so-called "song" is so unintentionally hilarious...


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## gfactor (Dec 19, 2013)

Put off listening to this for a while cause I don't like Ros's music but after hearing all the backlash I gave it listen. I read the GP comments but didn't think it would be THAT bad. Wow, that is hilarious. I have been playing guitar for over 10 years and listening to guitar music my whole life and have NEVER heard a real guitar sound anything like that, he must think people are really stupid. 

Maybe someone can sneak a comment on his page that sounds like praise until you notice the first letters of each line spell "U SUCK".


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 19, 2013)

Jackzaa said:


> Dishonour on you, dishonour on your cow



The ancient Chinese would usually curse the whole family/ancestry...


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 19, 2013)

gfactor said:


> Put off listening to this for a while cause I don't like Ros's music but after hearing all the backlash I gave it listen. I read the GP comments but didn't think it would be THAT bad. Wow, that is hilarious. I have been playing guitar for over 10 years and listening to guitar music my whole life and have NEVER heard a real guitar sound anything like that, he must think people are really stupid.
> 
> Maybe someone can sneak a comment on his page that sounds like praise until you notice the first letters of each line spell "U SUCK".



Tried ".... you" (but I unintentionally capitalized every first letter and made it too obvious)


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## Erockomania (Dec 20, 2013)

I. cannot. believe. he. said. that. was. professionally. recorded. ... and that it was the axefx. What in the actual ....? 

Zeuss will chime in eventually. No way he wants his name attached to a GP song.


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## Fat-Elf (Dec 20, 2013)

God, this started like 2 months ago and it's still going hard. Can't you just forget this guy already? 

I actually dig that song, Guitar Pro or not.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 20, 2013)

ConnorGilks said:


> Difference is, Al can play his shit now.



Al could always play he just wasn't used to/couldn't play the songs live. So many tech bands are really sloppy live because they write music they can just about play at a rehearsal but live when their moving around, covered in sweat, trying not to look at their guitar constantly etc it just falls apart.


On Facebook you have to delete negative comments otherwise the sheep start showing up and jumping on the hate wagon.


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## no_dice (Dec 20, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> God, this started like 2 months ago and it's still going hard. Can't you just forget this guy already?



Actually it died out and someone just bumped it a couple days ago.



Lorcan Ward said:


> On Facebook you have to delete negative comments otherwise the sheep start showing up and jumping on the hate wagon.



or they turn it into a game and bomb you with negative comments, seeing how fast you delete them.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 20, 2013)

Well if the music was what he said it was it'd speak for itself and it wouldn't matter how many ppl put negative comments if the right ppl think it's cool (assuming those ppl have the money and are willing to give it to him). 

But no one wants to give you money when you're a dick...


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 20, 2013)

Fat-Elf said:


> God, this started like 2 months ago and it's still going hard. Can't you just forget this guy already?
> 
> I actually dig that song, Guitar Pro or not.



But it's not even a song. Just random snippets of random musical licks. 

So how do we know if he even actually wrote a full song?  or album of material?


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## Malkav (Dec 20, 2013)

Looking back at the beginning of this thread, cause I figured I'd rewatch the video for lols, the amount of comments from people saying that it sounds like a real guitar or like most bands clean sounds these days 

I think those guys need to play more guitar, no amount of processing can make it that sterile


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## Jackzaa (Dec 20, 2013)

I think the reason I take this so personally is his smug face at the end of the video.

Self-satisfied asshat.

I should probably stop being so negative, I apologise SSO
But damn it's like he WANTS to be punched.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 20, 2013)

*stab stab stab shoot!*

I'm trying to kill this thread... o.o ...but it won't die! xD

Ya boy only got a 20th of what he was asking for....dude....like seriously....only 5% of the goal is rather atrociously pathetic considering how many "fans" ROS has and all their "likes" on the Book of Face.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 20, 2013)

Malkav said:


> Looking back at the beginning of this thread, cause I figured I'd rewatch the video for lols, the amount of comments from people saying that it sounds like a real guitar or like most bands clean sounds these days
> 
> I think those guys need to play more guitar, no amount of processing can make it that sterile



Anyone who thinks that its real has never recorded something and heard the sound difference between and up-stroke and down-stroke. Even the tapped notes have the midi down-pick attack from guitar pro.


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## DVRP (Dec 20, 2013)

"Our drummer, Jesse Beahler, has made the decision to leave Rings of Saturn in order to put all his concentration into his other band Black Crown Initiate. It was awesome touring with him, and we wish him the best of luck in his future musical endeavors!

Despite this unfortunate news, we also want to announce that we are officially working on a new record! Because of our drum situation, Aaron Kitcher from BLACK TONGUE and Infant Annihilator has agreed to do the drums on our 3rd album. We are SUPER excited about this and feel that his input will really blow peoples minds on our new material.

Aaron will not be joining the band because he is already committed to two very active bands. So, we ARE looking for a touring drummer who can play material from Embryonic Anomaly, Dingir, and will be down to learn songs from the new record so we can hit the road on tours to support the upcoming release. If you are an epic drummer who is up for this, send some play through videos our way!"


HAHAH


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 20, 2013)

"If you are proficient drummer who can blast hard enough to cover up the plink-fest of lead guitars, send some Playthrough videos our way!"


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## xfilth (Dec 20, 2013)

Quick, someone make a playthrough video with a Guitar Pro drum track and firmly claim that it's yourself playing - if anyone questions you, it's just the ....ing metal community that is out to get you!


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## DVRP (Dec 20, 2013)

xfilth said:


> Quick, someone make a playthrough video with a Guitar Pro drum track and firmly claim that it's yourself playing - if anyone questions you, it's just the ....ing metal community that is out to get you!



SOMEONE DO IT


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 20, 2013)

should be playing one of those mini 4pc kits from Wal-Mart when ya do it.


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## Quantumface (Dec 20, 2013)

DVRP said:


> "Our drummer, Jesse Beahler, has made the decision to leave Rings of Saturn in order to put all his concentration into his other band Black Crown Initiate. It was awesome touring with him, and we wish him the best of luck in his future musical endeavors!
> 
> Despite this unfortunate news, we also want to announce that we are officially working on a new record! Because of our drum situation, Aaron Kitcher from BLACK TONGUE and Infant Annihilator has agreed to do the drums on our 3rd album. We are SUPER excited about this and feel that his input will really blow peoples minds on our new material.
> 
> ...



Honestly this Infant Annihilator band sounds just as fake. Especially the drummer. No actual live videos of drummer playing material, only videos of his other band Black Tongue which consists only of breakdowns. Idk maybe IA doesnt play shows.


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## DVRP (Dec 20, 2013)

Quantumface said:


> Honestly this Infant Annihilator band sounds just as fake. Especially the drummer. No actual live videos of drummer playing material, only videos of his other band Black Tongue which consists only of breakdowns. Idk maybe IA doesnt play shows.



Actually, there are videos of him playing an acoustic kit. He can play it.

That's a shitty stripped down kit, with no triggers, and no in ears to listen to a click. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YUKEowJV4M


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## Draceius (Dec 20, 2013)

Quantumface said:


> Honestly this Infant Annihilator band sounds just as fake. Especially the drummer. No actual live videos of drummer playing material, only videos of his other band Black Tongue which consists only of breakdowns. Idk maybe IA doesnt play shows.



IA don't play shows because it was only done with three guys, and now there is only two, since I believe the vocalist left. But they don't have a feasible touring band and black tongue is full band. As for his playing, he's been doing covers for years, after seeing some of them I wouldn't doubt his playing, but then I could be wrong.

As for the stuff with RoS and Lucas, I backed his corner for a while, with the half speed stuff, but it seems he's dug his own grave this time, and a lot of the shit he's getting could've been very easily avoided, I foresee RoS falling apart soon...


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## Quantumface (Dec 20, 2013)

DVRP said:


> Actually, there are videos of him playing an acoustic kit. He can play it.
> 
> That's a shitty stripped down kit, with no triggers, and no in ears to listen to a click.




Ah thats better.


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## DVRP (Dec 20, 2013)

I'm always so tempted to ask Ian if he could punch his vocals in syllable by syllable would he do it hahaha


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## gorthul (Dec 20, 2013)

DVRP said:


> "Our drummer, Jesse Beahler, has made the decision to leave Rings of Saturn in order to put all his concentration into his other band Black Crown Initiate. It was awesome touring with him, and we wish him the best of luck in his future musical endeavors!
> 
> Despite this unfortunate news, we also want to announce that we are officially working on a new record! Because of our drum situation, Aaron Kitcher from BLACK TONGUE and Infant Annihilator has agreed to do the drums on our 3rd album. We are SUPER excited about this and feel that his input will really blow peoples minds on our new material.
> 
> ...



I think this is good, I like Black Crown Initiate really a lot. Their recent EP is very good.

Regarding Lucas ... well, it's just pure internet comedy.


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## Darknut (Dec 20, 2013)

So many people are on this kid's ass about how he records and plays live it makes me almost feel bad for him, lol.

What I don't understand are his ambitions. I mean he asked for 20k because he said he was "ambitious" about getting it done the right way, but then he doesn't have the "ambition" to go through the effort of playing the jam that he went through the effort of writing?

 shit scrambles my brain just thinking about it. He writes and plays shows and puts in obvious effort, why not go the extra mile on a bedroom recording and play the track yourself?


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 20, 2013)

my though on that is, if you have the music pouring out of you and you want to do it, you'll do it with nothing if that's what you had....people with no resources and lots of passion release music every day, usually just to have people hear it...he probably wanted 20K so he could turn around and try and sell the shit for $10 on bandcamp.


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 20, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> But it's not even a song. Just random snippets of random musical licks.
> 
> So how do we know if he even actually wrote a full song?  or album of material?



Thats what we're paying for no? Him to write it...?


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 20, 2013)

Nobody should have to pay anyone to write an album unless its on commission like a jingle writer or something......You can want to write an album, and hope that someone like a record label or your fans will allow the funds to do so, and if he's expecting his fans to "pay" him to write an album, he can fVck right off. Do it cause you love it or GTFO.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 20, 2013)

Draceius said:


> IA don't play shows because it was only done with three guys, and now there is only two, since I believe the vocalist left. But they don't have a feasible touring band and black tongue is full band. As for his playing, he's been doing covers for years, after seeing some of them I wouldn't doubt his playing, but then I could be wrong.
> 
> As for the stuff with RoS and Lucas, I backed his corner for a while, with the half speed stuff, but it seems he's dug his own grave this time, and a lot of the shit he's getting could've been very easily avoided, I foresee RoS falling apart soon...



Other way around concerning Infant Annihilator, mate. Completely wrong. Eddie Pickard (guitarist) said he was gonna take a break to focus on Black Tongue and other stuff. But Aaron (drummer) announced a new Infant album coming in 2014. Dan Waton (vocalist) confirmed it. And the guys have been busy nonstop with Black Tongue while Dan has his new project Faith In Convergence here in the states.

In the meantime, I am willing to bet that Jesse left partially because of Lucas....anyone else feeling dem feelz on dis? <.<


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## The Omega Cluster (Dec 20, 2013)

Despite this unfortunate news, we also want to announce that we are officially working on a new record! Because of our drum situation, Aaron Kitcher from BLACK TONGUE and Infant Annihilator has agreed to do the drums on our 3rd album. We are SUPER excited about this and feel that his input will really blow peoples minds on our new material.[/QUOTE]

Wow, Aaron is really a drummer GOD, man.

I'll probably listen to ROS3 only because of the drums.


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## fps (Dec 21, 2013)

GunpointMetal said:


> Nobody should have to pay anyone to write an album unless its on commission like a jingle writer or something......You can want to write an album, and hope that someone like a record label or your fans will allow the funds to do so, and if he's expecting his fans to "pay" him to write an album, he can fVck right off. Do it cause you love it or GTFO.



Yep, and this is why no-one's ever been paid to write an album ever.


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 21, 2013)

fps said:


> Yep, and this is why no-one's ever been paid to write an album ever.



Except guys who write film soundtracks?... 

But they're paid by a film studio / production sources. xD


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## Vhyle (Dec 21, 2013)

I have followed this entire thread so far. I honestly have never heard Rings of Saturn, nor have I heard of this Lucas Mann character before the thread.

But wow, this has been some entertaining shit.


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## noUser01 (Dec 26, 2013)

Wings of Obsidian said:


> Except guys who write film soundtracks?...
> 
> But they're paid by a film studio / production sources. xD



Being commissioned to write some music to match up with another product you've made is different than paying someone to write _their_ solo album.


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## works0fheart (Dec 27, 2013)

Why is this thread still a thing?

It's literally like 13 pages of handing Lucas Mann his ass.


















































I think he deserves it in this instance though... But still...


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## The Omega Cluster (Dec 27, 2013)

^Starting this thread is the best decision I've made in my life.


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## brutalwizard (Dec 28, 2013)

Rings of saturnalia other guitarist just joined a band called extortionist.


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## Per Nilsson (Dec 29, 2013)

If I was crazy rich I would've anonymously funded his solo album in one giant troll move


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## Nats (Dec 29, 2013)

If I was crazy rich I would've sent him 20k in unwrapped pennies directly to his (mom's)house.


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## Paul McAleer (Dec 29, 2013)

But he's the best lead guitarist ever


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## MikeH (Dec 29, 2013)

You haven't been here long enough for me to tell if you're joking or not...


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## Wings of Obsidian (Dec 29, 2013)

Paul McAleer said:


> But he's the best lead guitarist ever


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## Paul McAleer (Dec 29, 2013)

MikeH said:


> You haven't been here long enough for me to tell if you're joking or not...



Very joking.


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## noUser01 (Dec 30, 2013)

Paul McAleer said:


> Very joking.








I almost cried.


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## Vhyle (Dec 30, 2013)




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## SmackyChot (Dec 30, 2013)

Normally I dislike drama wankery and shitting on another person for the sake of shitting. But I don't want this to die.

He needs to do something else to get everyone fired up. 


Why does this amuse me so


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## GunpointMetal (Dec 30, 2013)

SmackyChot said:


> Normally I dislike drama wankery and shitting on another person for the sake of shitting. But I don't want this to die.
> 
> He needs to do something else to get everyone fired up.
> 
> ...


 
Cause its fun watching people rip on other people when they actually earned it.


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## RagtimeDandy (Dec 30, 2013)

I'm still waiting for him to make a feedback video of like "Fvcking shitting fans didn't fund my Guitar Pro ....ing album. You're all so ungrateful for my talent, you have no idea how long I programmed that for. I. AM. GOD!"

...maybe a bit less melodramatic but hopefully not


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## Draceius (Dec 30, 2013)

RagtimeDandy said:


> I'm still waiting for him to make a feedback video of like "Fvcking shitting fans didn't fund my Guitar Pro ....ing album. You're all so ungrateful for my talent, you have no idea how long I programmed that for. I. AM. GOD!"
> 
> ...maybe a bit less melodramatic but hopefully not



Part of that reminded me of Kayne west, it's the sort of insane narcissistic flip out that he'd pull if people called him out.


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## Don Vito (Dec 30, 2013)

Lucas Mann was very attractive before he cut his hair off. Now he looks like Anthony from the needle drop :/


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