# I'm Transgender. Ask me anything.



## SexHaver420 (Dec 8, 2020)

I'm MTF (male to female) if that matters.


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## MFB (Dec 8, 2020)

Why do you feel the need to try this again after the last one went so spectacularly?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 8, 2020)

MFB said:


> Why do you feel the need to try this again after the last one went so spectacularly?



Because I got moderator approval and I think it's a thing a lot of people don't know very much about. The majority of people don't know anyone who's trans and I figured I'd try to talk to people and answer any questions they have or try to educate them on transgender issues or just bullshit with them about other stuff. Also it's my day off and I have free time.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 8, 2020)

Asked the first time and I'll ask again:

What about being trans compels you to "educate" people about it? Does checking that woke box help you confirm your transition?

Also, you clearly negate your desire to "just bullshit about them with other stuff" when you explicitly lead with a specific topic. If you just wanted to BS you'd just do that on any of the other several hundred threads on any given music related topic currently active.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 8, 2020)

I will throw something out there, how do you feel about trans-racial people?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 8, 2020)

SpaceDock said:


> I will throw something out there, how do you feel about trans-racial people?



I don't really care if people identify transracial or not. I do think it's a conscious choice though. I don't think your race is a choice and I don't think your gender identity is either. It's just what you're born with. 

Also Rachael Dolezal is the most famous transracial person and she just lied about her race for personal gain.


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## DudeManBrother (Dec 8, 2020)

If you’re a boy who thinks he’s a girl; but is attracted to girls: does that make you a lesbian?


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## KnightBrolaire (Dec 8, 2020)

DudeManBrother said:


> If you’re a boy who thinks he’s a girl; but is attracted to girls: does that make you a lesbian?


that's just being straight with extra steps


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 8, 2020)

DudeManBrother said:


> If you’re a boy who thinks he’s a girl; but is attracted to girls: does that make you a lesbian?



I'm a girl but I'm attracted to people of every gender so that makes me bi or pan. If I was strictly attracted to women I'd be a lesbian though.


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## Thep (Dec 8, 2020)

Have you ever been to Thailand? Transgenderism is extremely common there and from what I can tell is nearly completely normalized, at least in the bigger cities. I'd be curious if spending a significant amount of time in a society that is widely accepting of trans people would affect your life perspectives in anyway.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 8, 2020)

Thep said:


> Have you ever been to Thailand? Transgenderism is extremely common there and from what I can tell is nearly completely normalized, at least in the bigger cities. I'd be curious if spending a significant amount of time in a society that is widely accepting of trans people would affect your life perspectives in anyway.



I've never been to Thailand. One of my friends has before and she said it was really cool. I also love Thai food so hopefully I'll be able to go some day.

I think just being around other transgender people would probably help me. I'd love to be able to talk with another woman way farther along in her transition than me and see what she has to say. I don't know any other trans people besides someone I've been playing games with online for years and they're FTM so our experiences are completely different.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 9, 2020)

I'm happy that this thread is back....besides remembering all the idiocy and transphobia posted that's now finding its way here too. Anyways hey gurl! Just showing some love


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## bostjan (Dec 9, 2020)

Before I say anything else... cheers. 

Thanks for opening up this conversation.

I'm a straight guy, happily married to a woman. I never really put much thought into gender growing up, for better or worse. I don't tend to discuss stuff like this with my friends unless they bring it up. 

I like to think that I don't treat anyone differently based on gender or non-gender, aside from the nearly unavoidable pronoun stuff (for example, since I don't tend to think about it much, if a person appears to fit my conditioned appearance of feminine, I will tend to use "she" without thinking, not out of spite or anything, just because I, myself, am bad at social interaction/norms, and I also suck at unlearning habits).

I know that no group of two or more people is monolithic. Every person has their own likes, dislikes, extremes, situations that make them uncomfortable, etc.

Personally, I find the entire idea of gender fluidity as foreign, that is, I don't understand it. Like, in my mind, I am what I am, and you are what you are. Whatever gender you are when I first meet you, doesn't make me uncomfortable in any way, if you know what I mean. But something in my lizard-brain is, for lack of a better word, "confused," when someone I know changes their identity in some profound way. I don't mean like Kaitlyn Jenner. I never knew her at all, so, no reaction from me there. But, like friends I've known for years change their name and gender, and my first thought is something, like, "gee, I guess I never really knew them." I have a hard time with that from that angle alone. It's like I can't make the cognative connection of "oh, it's the same old friend," because it's like that friend doesn't want to be that person anymore. Then it sort of unravels from there for me. Like, do I still bring up old stories? They aren't the same person, but they are, but then again they aren't...

I guess I'm not really going anywhere with this, just hoping for some sort of epiphany that I honestly probably am not even anywhere near ready for.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Stuff



The way I see it is that your friends are still the same people that you've known. You're just going to get to know them as their true authentic happier selves. Imagine they're like a Pokemon or something and they leveled up enough to evolve and get stronger. It's also why their names might change.


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## narad (Dec 9, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> The way I see it is that your friends are still the same people that you've known. You're just going to get to know them as their true authentic happier selves. Imagine they're like a Pokemon or something and they leveled up enough to evolve and get stronger. It's also why their names might change.



Raichu should have stayed as Pikachu! It's how god intended!!


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 9, 2020)

narad said:


> Raichu should have stayed as Pikachu! It's how god intended!!


Now that's funny.

Fuck could you imagine that somewhere there are anti-evolution protestors in the Pokemon world who think that Pokemon that evolve are going against God's plan? You know that'd be a thing.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

narad said:


> Raichu should have stayed as Pikachu! It's how god intended!!



Pikachu should have stayed as Pichu cuz Pichu is way cuter


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 9, 2020)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Asked the first time and I'll ask again:
> 
> What about being trans compels you to "educate" people about it? Does checking that woke box help you confirm your transition?
> 
> Also, you clearly negate your desire to "just bullshit about them with other stuff" when you explicitly lead with a specific topic. If you just wanted to BS you'd just do that on any of the other several hundred threads on any given music related topic currently active.


u mad bro?


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 9, 2020)

speaking of pokemon, gotta shout out the og trans icon


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## Merrekof (Dec 9, 2020)

Has the transition affected your character or personality? Like is it different before and after?

I ask because a neighbour of mine used to be a man. He was a car dealer and often had a rude attitude towards customers. He sold the garage and got in to real estate sometime when he made the transition. Almost everyone who knows and knew him/her says she's a lot friendlier and nicer to deal with.
I often wondered if he was unhappy as a man and took it out on people. Or possibly he just hated his car dealership?


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## possumkiller (Dec 9, 2020)

How do transgender people feel about pineapple on pizza?


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## sleewell (Dec 9, 2020)

Toilet paper... is it supposed to be put on so it rolls out over or under?


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## sleewell (Dec 9, 2020)

Is a hot dog a sandwich? 

What about a taco?


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## narad (Dec 9, 2020)

Are you in the US and if so what government policies would you ideally want with respect to your gender?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

Merrekof said:


> Has the transition affected your character or personality? Like is it different before and after?
> 
> I ask because a neighbour of mine used to be a man. He was a car dealer and often had a rude attitude towards customers. He sold the garage and got in to real estate sometime when he made the transition. Almost everyone who knows and knew him/her says she's a lot friendlier and nicer to deal with.
> I often wondered if he was unhappy as a man and took it out on people. Or possibly he just hated his car dealership?



My mood has changed a lot and only in positive ways. Before starting HRT (hormone replacement therapy where I take a testosterone blocker pill and some estrogen pills twice a day) I was really depressed and withdrawn and had super bad anxiety. I'm sure getting blackout drunk every night and hoping I didn't wake up in the morning played a big part in that though.

Now I'm way calmer and a lot happier. After I came out a lot of my friends, a few family members I'm out to, and my counselor all told me how much happier I look and sound. My anxiety is mostly gone too. Being able to look in the mirror and see a girl who's just going to get prettier the longer she's on hormones instead of an ugly depressed guy is amazing. I also hardly drink anymore because I'm an alcoholic and having one drink socially has a snowball effect of me going back to drinking at least a fifth of whiskey in a few days. I slip up every once in a while but it's way better than it used to be.



possumkiller said:


> How do transgender people feel about pineapple on pizza?



I can't speak for all transgender people but I like it on pizza. I think it goes good with jalapenos and other kinds of peppers. 



sleewell said:


> Toilet paper... is it supposed to be put on so it rolls out over or under?



It doesn't matter to me but I think you should do whatever one you like best.



sleewell said:


> Is a hot dog a sandwich?
> 
> What about a taco?



I think a taco is a taco and a hot dog is also a taco.



narad said:


> Are you in the US and if so what government policies would you ideally want with respect to your gender?



I'm in the US and I live in Washington so I'm pretty lucky because this state offers the same legal protections to transgender people as cisgender people and I know a lot of states don't. I'd also like people to quit focusing on stupid stuff like what bathroom trans people should use. It's just fear mongering bullshit and all it does is increase the risk of trans people being discriminated against or assaulted for having to go to the bathroom like everyone else. I'd just like for people like me to have the same rights and privileges as everyone else nationwide.


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## Drew (Dec 9, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I'm MTF (male to female) if that matters.


Incredibly dumb question, but just to make sure I'm using the right language: 

This would make you, at least in contexts when we're refering to the fact you're trans at all, a trans woman, correct? 

Honestly my biggest problem, if problem is the word, with trans _anything_ is a concern about fucking up the language, and in turn that being interpreted as an intentional slight. So, figured I'd ask.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

Drew said:


> Incredibly dumb question, but just to make sure I'm using the right language:
> 
> This would make you, at least in contexts when we're refering to the fact you're trans at all, a trans woman, correct?
> 
> Honestly my biggest problem, if problem is the word, with trans _anything_ is a concern about fucking up the language, and in turn that being interpreted as an intentional slight. So, figured I'd ask.



Yeah that'd make me a trans woman. I was assigned male at birth and I'm transitioning to female. A trans man is someone who was assigned female at birth and is transitioning/has transitioned to a male. 

I personally don't really enjoy being called trans because I want everyone to just refer to me and see me like they do every other woman. Hopefully that'll start happening when I'm farther along in my transition.


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## Drew (Dec 9, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I personally don't really enjoy being called trans because I want everyone to just refer to me and see me like they do every other woman. Hopefully that'll start happening when I'm farther along in my transition.


That makes sense and - for what it's worth - was why I asked specifically in the context of any situation where your identity as trans was being referenced. 

Thanks for your patience.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 9, 2020)

A close friend of mine transitioned a few years ago, and I kept finding myself reflexively using their old name- since I'd known them for _*years*_. I tried to be as supportive as I could, but would make unconscious mistakes like that somewhat frequently.

Is this something you run into with people in your life? Does it bother you, even in situations where it's safe to assume it was an innocent mistake?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> A close friend of mine transitioned a few years ago, and I kept finding myself reflexively using their old name- since I'd known them for _*years*_. I tried to be as supportive as I could, but would make unconscious mistakes like that somewhat frequently.
> 
> Is this something you run into with people in your life? Does it bother you, even in situations where it's safe to assume it was an innocent mistake?



I got really lucky and my parents gave me a really good gender neutral first name so I'm probably not going to change it. It makes it easier for everyone and then I don't have to change it and go through the hassle of getting it changed at court and then changing it on all of my legal documents. 

My family that I'm out to and my friends still occasionally misgender me but most of them do a really good job correcting themselves and I know they don't mean to. Most of them just knew me as a guy for a long time. I have a trans friend who started transitioning over two years ago and rarely I'll still fuck up and misgender him but I always get his name right. I don't think most trans people care about the occasional mistake and most of us can tell when it's done maliciously.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 9, 2020)

I'm sure this is probably going to sound terrible and unfeeling, because I'm just going to be matter-of-fact about it, so that I don't actually over-think and mis-speak...

I think an unfortunately truth is that some trans folks will definitely have an easier time with either acceptance from other people (on the worse end of the response spectrum) to other people just accidentally slipping up and mis-gendering, at least in part, some of that comes down to the person's appearance, and whether they "pass" as their preferred gender. What I mean is, a person with a very strong jaw, brow, a 5 0'clock shadow that shows up at 10am, and other traditionally more "masculine" physical features will have a harder time with it.

I've known two people where I knew them both before and after their transitioning started. Both were in rural mid-west, and both were MtF. One was a slender teenager, who had a more androgynous facial structure and body shape He played sports, but they were all things like cross-country running and swimming (nothing like baseball or football). He started his transition basically the day after high school graduation, and entered college identifying from then on as a woman. I only bumped into her a couple of times in person over these 20_ years, and a few more times online in comments on facebook posts of mutual friends. Unless you knew them before, you'd never in a million years think that they weren't always a woman (on the outside). I wasn't close friends or anything, but she seemed like her life was going pretty well and seemed to have a failry easy time with things, as far as I could tell anyway...

The other person was someone my dad used to work work years ago in a foundry. like...where they make steel out of iron. He was at least 50 years old, and had been a factory worker for almost 30 years. He had already moved to an office job off the factory floor for a few years, but had to walk in to work and ask people to start referring to him with a different name, and started dressing in women's clothing. I couldn't even imagine just how different his experience likely was compared to someone like the young man I knew in high school. My dad didn't work at that foundry anymore, and never had any direct contact with this person...so maybe I'm just projecting? But I have to imagine her journey is way way way different than many others, and doesn't have the same luxuries as younger people, people already starting a new life, or people who already have some built-in benefits in their genetic make-up to help them go...er..."undetected", as it were...


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Stuff



I think that you're right and some people have a much easier time passing than others. A big part of it is honestly just genetic luck.

I don't get misgendered if I go out with my friends who are girls if I do my makeup decently and put my hair back in some sort of cute way. My biggest tells are my voice is kind of low, my shoulders are kind of wide, and my 5 o'clock shadow because I can't afford laser hair removal yet. Wearing a mask in public because of covid makes people not notice the stubble though which is really nice. I went shopping with my friend last week and no one misgendered me the whole time.

I only really get misgendered at work by customers and coworkers (I'm not out to anyone there yet and I just wear my work clothes. I plan on coming out if I can't find a new job soon though because it's annoying being closeted at work) or at local places like restaurants and stores I've been going to for a while where the employees knew me as a guy.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 9, 2020)

Have you tried foundation and color blocking for the facial hair? On some it works and some it doesn't


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Have you tried foundation and color blocking for the facial hair? On some it works and some it doesn't



Foundation works but I'm broke and don't have a makeup budget (95% of mine is just stuff my friends/sister have given me). I plan to get my facial hair lasered off anyway when I get the money.

My best friend went to school for hair/makeup/nails and she's done full makeup on me and you can't tell I've ever had facial hair as long as I shave that day. My body hair is starting to grow in slower so I hope the same thing happens with my facial hair eventually. I've only been on HRT for a few months and my skin looks nicer now without makeup besides some eyeliner than it used to with full makeup.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 9, 2020)

Yeah full makeup can be hell on the skin. I recommend a skin care routine and makeup primer. Olive oil is a good non harsh makeup remover and it helps soften your skin...if you decide to beat a mug for whatever reason


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 9, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah full makeup can be hell on the skin. I recommend a skin care routine and makeup primer. Olive oil is a good non harsh makeup remover and it helps soften your skin...if you decide to beat a mug for whatever reason



All I really wear is some eyeliner and mascara and occasionally some lipstick. My friend took me to get a nice cleanser and some jojoba oil which is the best stuff ever.


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## possumkiller (Dec 10, 2020)

Is it cool for straight guys to play with makeup? When I was in high school (late 90s), I made friends with girls much easier. I just can't make myself give a shit about sports and hunting and expensive cars and a lot of "macho" bullshit. My step-family would always be bullying me and trying to make fun of me because I would come home with painted nails and eyeliner and stuff. The girls in class taught me how to use makeup and stuff. I taught some girls how to walk in heels without breaking their ankles or walking like a newborn deer. How to deepthroat a giant candycane stick without gagging. And it's not that I am secretly gay or bi or anything. I am definitely straight. I was trying to bang every one of these chicks at some point. I just don't jive with the macho alpha male mentality. I am not sexually attracted to males (not sexually attracted to a lot of females either for that matter, I seem to have higher standards these days), but I can appreciate attractiveness in males without thinking it's gay.


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## TedEH (Dec 10, 2020)

^ I thought the whole point of all of this progressiveness is that it's "ok" to do whatever you want. Who or what exactly sets the rules of what you can or can't play with? Or what you wear? Or who you marry or sleep with? I mean, it's always the same conversation - is it ok for guys to have long hair? Is it ok for women to drive pickup trucks? The whole point (IMO) of conversations like these are that the "rules" are arbitrary.

If you're an adult, you can do whatever you want. That doesn't mean people won't judge you or have opinions, but you also have the freedom to not care about said judgment. I'm far from being the most "progressive" person in the world, and I very much have opinions about gender and sex and social roles and standards and weird cultural things surrounding and resulting from them etc etc etc - but as a baseline, if you're not harming yourself or anyone else, and nobody's rights or humanity is being taken away, then who cares what anyone else thinks of you or what you do.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 10, 2020)

TedEH said:


> ^ I thought the whole point of all of this progressiveness is that it's "ok" to do whatever you want.



Hell, I'm probably one of the most right wing (ish) people on here, but ya, as long as it's not hurting anyone else go for it. Why does it have to be a dude thing or a chick thing and not just a thing?


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Dec 10, 2020)

Sup?


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## spudmunkey (Dec 10, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Is it cool for straight guys to play with makeup?



It depends on what you mean by "cool". I mean...some of the most successful YouTubers (I'm talking, like, making thousands and thousands per month and launching million dollar plus brands), are men with cosmetics/makeup channels. (aka James Charles, Jeffreestar {although I don't know enough about the latter to know if he actually identifies as she or not...I don't *think* so...}). My only exposure to this world is occasional coverage on some entertainment news shows on YouTube when there's drama or some sort of "newsworthy" happening. Most though, from what little I've seen, seem to go for the over-the-top, almost "drag queen"-y style or like...haute fashion/editorial...not something anyone would wear every day except "fashionistas" or models.

That said, in googling the names I mentioned in the last one to make sure i got their names right, i did come across Wayne Goss who seems to do more "makeup for men" type stuff, with a muuuuuuuuuch more relatable personality.


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## SpaceDock (Dec 10, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Is it cool for straight guys to play with makeup? When I was in high school (late 90s), I made friends with girls much easier. I just can't make myself give a shit about sports and hunting and expensive cars and a lot of "macho" bullshit. My step-family would always be bullying me and trying to make fun of me because I would come home with painted nails and eyeliner and stuff. The girls in class taught me how to use makeup and stuff. I taught some girls how to walk in heels without breaking their ankles or walking like a newborn deer. How to deepthroat a giant candycane stick without gagging. And it's not that I am secretly gay or bi or anything. I am definitely straight. I was trying to bang every one of these chicks at some point. I just don't jive with the macho alpha male mentality. I am not sexually attracted to males (not sexually attracted to a lot of females either for that matter, I seem to have higher standards these days), but I can appreciate attractiveness in males without thinking it's gay.



I am with you 100% on everything here except the candy cane bit which just about made me spill my beer. 

You essentially described my high school and college life.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 10, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I personally don't really enjoy being called trans because I want everyone to just refer to me and see me like they do every other woman. Hopefully that'll start happening when I'm farther along in my transition.



I'm sorry if you take this the wrong way, but what is your opinion on people thinking bi people are transphobic? Because that's never really made that much sense to me.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 10, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> I'm sorry if you take this the wrong way, but what is your opinion on people thinking bi people are transphobic? Because that's never really made that much sense to me.


....How? Is that really a thing?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 10, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> I'm sorry if you take this the wrong way, but what is your opinion on people thinking bi people are transphobic? Because that's never really made that much sense to me.



It doesn't make sense to me either. I identify as bi/pan because some days I don't have a preference in what genders I'm attracted to and other days I do. Most of the time I prefer women but some days I don't. I also have multiple bisexual friends who are attracted to transgender/non binary people.

The way I see it is that bisexual is being attracted to two or more genders with a preference and pansexual is being attracted to people regardless of gender identity.

I'm sure some other bi/pan people will disagree but it's a stupid argument that I don't think matters.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....How? Is that really a thing?



Yes unfortunately.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 10, 2020)

Are the people making these claims somehow mixing someone not being physically attracted to someone with being "phobic"?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 10, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Are the people making these claims somehow mixing someone not being physically attracted to someone with being "phobic"?



I don't know. You'd have to ask them. The people who make claims like that don't seem like the most intelligent people so good luck.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 10, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....How? Is that really a thing?



I mean, I've been talking to my wife about some stuff that's been going on in my head, and I thought I was confused because I've had a crush on a dude or two, but my wife is on the bisexual redidit, and that is a whole new goddamned level of confused.



spudmunkey said:


> Are the people making these claims somehow mixing someone not being physically attracted to someone with being "phobic"?



I guess. From my little bit of reading on how I might be part of the LGBT(wtf ever it is now) community, they are the most eat yourself alive community there is. Women can be bisexual until they realize they are lesbians, but if a dude has a vague interest in another dude, he's gay, no in between.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 10, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> I mean, I've been talking to my wife about some stuff that's been going on in my head, and I thought I was confused because I've had a crush on a dude or two, but my wife is on the bisexual redidit, and that is a whole new goddamned level of confused.
> 
> 
> 
> I guess. From my little bit of reading on how I might be part of the LGBT(wtf ever it is now) community, they are the most eat yourself alive community there is. Women can be bisexual until they realize they are lesbians, but if a dude has a vague interest in another dude, he's gay, no in between.



Congratulations you're starting to figure out what toxic masculinity is and how harmful it is to literally everyone. Also bisexual women are only more accepted than bisexual men because men fetishize them.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 11, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> Congratulations you're starting to figure out what toxic masculinity is and how harmful it is to literally everyone. Also bisexual women are only more accepted than bisexual men because men fetishize them.



My thing about toxic masculinity, is my masculine side is basically






That being said...my wife finally got Tik Tok, and I'm totally down for working at Femboy Hooters.


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## Randy (Dec 11, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> I am not sexually attracted to males



Human sexuality is a weird thing, really. I don't know if half of women who identify as heterosexual are even sexually attracted to men, or at least in the same way men are to them. 

Just observing the things women frequently cite when talking about a guy they like, typically it sounds like a list of things they think other people would approve of or be impressed by rather than stuff that specifically turns THEM on. 

Not that there aren't thirsty women out there but you know, we talk about sexual attraction and limits based on gender or whatever and I think identity and sexuality is pretty close to impossible to box into the two or three categories we revert to. The main reason why people are guarded about sex is because the expectation is that it fits into the box and it pretty much literally never does for anyone, so everything that doesn't fit in that box ends up in the incognito browser window.

So yeah, idk, I think definitions are hard. I mean, it's like music genres; imperfect but a generalization to at least get into the right region of the grid in a casual conversation, but far from accurate either. 

I think if you extend that beyond sex and into identity and yeah, I mean, I think most of us are also kind of shades of boy/girl/both/neither


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 11, 2020)

Randy said:


> Stuff



Sexuality and gender identity are all on a spectrum and not just binaries and I think most people don't care about that because it doesn't really affect the majority of people.


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## TedEH (Dec 11, 2020)

I had a weird.... I'll call it a disagreement.... with someone a while ago when "international mens day" came up- which led to a conversation about how suicide rates are higher in men. Someone had proposed the idea that this is because men are "forced to suppress their feminine side", which I didn't quite understand what he meant, so I asked him to elaborate. His answer was that men (in his view) want to be emotionally vulnerable and make themselves look good, and wear skirts and makeup and have female friends, etc., and that these are (in his words) feminine traits, therefor men are suppressing their feminine side.

I tried to suggest that these aren't "feminine" traits, and maybe boxing them in as such is why anyone might feel pressured to suppress them in the first place. Traits aren't inherently gendered - they're just traits. Continuing to call them masculine/feminine traits just reinforces that attribution. I tried to suggest that if we didn't actively attribute character traits to genders, maybe people would feel less like they need to either behave different ways or mess with semantics or "suppress themselves" to fit a particular ideal. This wasn't received very well, and I still don't understand why.


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## bostjan (Dec 11, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I had a weird.... I'll call it a disagreement.... with someone a while ago when "international mens day" came up- which led to a conversation about how suicide rates are higher in men. Someone had proposed the idea that this is because men are "forced to suppress their feminine side", which I didn't quite understand what he meant, so I asked him to elaborate. His answer was that men (in his view) want to be emotionally vulnerable and make themselves look good, and wear skirts and makeup and have female friends, etc., and that these are (in his words) feminine traits, therefor men are suppressing their feminine side.
> 
> I tried to suggest that these aren't "feminine" traits, and maybe boxing them in as such is why anyone might feel pressured to suppress them in the first place. Traits aren't inherently gendered - they're just traits. Continuing to call them masculine/feminine traits just reinforces that attribution. I tried to suggest that if we didn't actively attribute character traits to genders, maybe people would feel less like they need to either behave different ways or mess with semantics or "suppress themselves" to fit a particular ideal. This wasn't received very well, and I still don't understand why.


This is very philosophical, but it comes down to how we define gender, which itself seems to be a source of a lot of displeasure.

Gender is a sort of adverbial concept used to describe other concepts. The old way it worked was that the gender of a concept fit into a small number of categories: masculine, feminine, or nongendered (thus he, she, it / der, die, das / il, elle... etc.). I don't believe that this way of thinking was only applied to people, because hunter-gatherer cultures divided labour into genders probably long before language existed. At some point, the idea that gender could be expressed, at least somewhat, as a continuum, started to take hold. Football could be a masculine sport, but maybe boxing is even more masculine. Making stuff out of raw materials is masculine, but knitting or sewing is more feminine than masculine. Dogs could be more masculine pets than cats, but maybe a pet bear is even more masculine... etc.

But, perhaps you and I agree that assigning genders to sports, means of production, or pet ownership is strange and too far removed from whatever utility gender concepts had to homo erectus.

And you have some who want to reduce it to what sort of naughty bit a person had at the particular moment they separated from their placenta. Not sure what purpose that serves, exactly, at least in terms of effectiveness of basing it off of pretty much any metric that defines the contemporary person.

So, how do *you* define "gender?"


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 11, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I had a weird.... I'll call it a disagreement.... with someone a while ago when "international mens day" came up- which led to a conversation about how suicide rates are higher in men. Someone had proposed the idea that this is because men are "forced to suppress their feminine side", which I didn't quite understand what he meant, so I asked him to elaborate. His answer was that men (in his view) want to be emotionally vulnerable and make themselves look good, and wear skirts and makeup and have female friends, etc., and that these are (in his words) feminine traits, therefor men are suppressing their feminine side.
> 
> I tried to suggest that these aren't "feminine" traits, and maybe boxing them in as such is why anyone might feel pressured to suppress them in the first place. Traits aren't inherently gendered - they're just traits. Continuing to call them masculine/feminine traits just reinforces that attribution. I tried to suggest that if we didn't actively attribute character traits to genders, maybe people would feel less like they need to either behave different ways or mess with semantics or "suppress themselves" to fit a particular ideal. This wasn't received very well, and I still don't understand why.


that's a good argument, though it's wayyyy too radical for western civilization. people can barely deprogram themselves from the gender dichotomy without their brains breaking


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## NotDonVito (Dec 11, 2020)




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## SexHaver420 (Dec 11, 2020)

NotDonVito said:


>



Dude what


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## TedEH (Dec 12, 2020)

bostjan said:


> But, perhaps you and I agree that assigning genders to sports, means of production, or pet ownership is strange and too far removed from whatever utility gender concepts had to homo erectus.


I tend not to think homo erectus had a concept of gender at all in the sense we're talking about it now. To me (and I imagine to a number of other people) those lines (in sports, in production, etc etc) were meant to be a distinction regarding sex, not social roles. And I'd agree with you that a modern/progressive definition of gender wouldn't make sense as the basis to segregate things like that.

A lot of what confuses me about these topics/conversations is that people don't all draw the distinction between sex and gender in the same place, and almost nobody specifies/clarifies where they draw those lines unless you press them about it, or a point is being made to remove sex from the conversation. Nobody wants to talk about the sex part of gender. Like in my mind, when someone describes "transitioning", I think of that less as a process affecting gender than one affecting sex -> as in, to get the surgery would make a person trans-sexual, not necessary trans-gendered, if you wanted to get picky about it, wouldn't it? It surprises me that I've never seen anyone actually bring this up, since it a topic that a lot of people like to get picky about.



bostjan said:


> So, how do *you* define "gender?"


I'll preface this by saying that I'll give my opinion / definition when asked for it, but I'm in no way trying to tell people how they should see or do things.

The best definition I can come up with (that describes how I personally think about the subject) is that it's the social/cultural/etc expression of sex. But I know that's not how everyone defines it. The definition I use is a sort of concession that it's not the same as sex per-se, but it's not disconnected from it. I know that some people think of it as a sort of generic classification of people with no connection to sex at all (and I disagree with that assessment for a number of reasons , partly based on how we've always used the terminology surrounding the topic), and you can also find definitions that say gender _is_ just another word for sex (which I don't think it could be argued that people colloquially use the word that way some times, but also people get angry when you use that definition soooooo....)

It's too hairy of a subject.

Even though I don't think I've said anything offensive or dismissive, every time I get into a conversation about the subject I feel like I'm walking on eggshells. As in, I have legitimate fears that someone will see that I mentioned sex in a conversation about gender and decide that I'm not progressive enough to deserve employment and try to get me fired for "being transphobic". I treat the subject the same way I do religion -> I don't necessarily believe all the core values, but I think I at least partially understand why some do, and I have no interest in telling people what to believe or what to do.

I defer back to my last post -> if you're an adult and you're not harming anyone, live and interpret the world as you please.


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## bostjan (Dec 12, 2020)

That's all fair to say. I do find it sad though, that open and civil conversation could cause so much anger or fear of backlash.


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## TedEH (Dec 12, 2020)

Don't get me wrong, when it comes to 99% of the things people want to get out of these conversations - ie. treating people like people, letting people use whatever bathroom they want, trying to understand people's experience so that we can all be on the same page, letting people be comfortable with themselves, etc - I'm all for all of that.

Maybe to bring it more around to the original topic:

Does it bother you when someone says "dude" or "guys" to basically everyone?
And if not, does it bother you when someone else gets preemptively offended on your behalf at things like "dude" or "guys"?


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## HUGH JAYNUS (Dec 12, 2020)

How do i set a noise gate pedal in the fx loop of my Line 6 Helix? 

You said ask anything


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## broj15 (Dec 12, 2020)

Glad to see this thread is (so far) less hostile than the first one. Keep on keeping on and nothing but love from me as always.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 12, 2020)

HUGH JAYNUS said:


> How do i set a noise gate pedal in the fx loop of my Line 6 Helix?
> 
> You said ask anything



I can't help you with that one. I've never used an fx loop because none of my amps have one lol


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## Bearitone (Dec 12, 2020)

Genuinely curious, not my intent to offend:

How much of your time daily do you spend thinking about your identity?

Do you view yourself as a victim in any way? If so in what way?

Do you feel your life/mental state has improved since transitioning?


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 12, 2020)

Milk in tea: yes/no?


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## Hollowway (Dec 12, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> Milk in tea: yes/no?


Can't tell if literal or double entendre.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

Bearitone said:


> Genuinely curious, not my intent to offend:
> 
> How much of your time daily do you spend thinking about your identity?
> 
> ...



I don't really think about it that much unless I notice some sort of new physical change that the HRT is causing or I get misgendered. Getting misgendered makes me kind of sad because I want other people to see me how I see myself but it kinda makes me hopeful because one day they might. Seeing new changes from HRT makes me really happy and makes me feel more feminine though (no one told me that growing boobs hurts and you'll always hit stuff on them because you're not used to them being there).

I don't view myself as a victim. I think I just got unlucky and that it's unfortunate that a small percentage of the population is born with a mismatch between their brains and bodies. If I get assaulted just for being trans or something then I'd feel like a victim though.

My mental state has improved so much since I accepted myself and started hormones. The only reason I started transitioning was because it got to the point where I couldn't repress my feelings anymore and I had to do something about it or I was going to kill myself (I had a plan to go to the pawn shop and sell my SG so I could buy a gun). I'd never felt like a boy since I was 4 years old and the feelings just kept getting worse and worse and puberty really kick started my depression and anxiety. Before I started transitioning I was drinking at least a fifth of liquor and some other drinks a day, going on benders without food for days that involved me puking blood, self harming without realizing it because I was blacked out, and doing whatever other drugs I could get my hands on. I'd just get as fucked up as possible every day and hope I wouldn't wake up the next day so I wouldn't have to live with those feelings anymore.

Now I'm a sort of mostly recovering alcoholic (I slip up occasionally and have a drink or two but I usually stop after that because if I don't I'll be back to drinking a bottle of whiskey in a few days). I'm way calmer and my anxiety is pretty much completely gone too. I also look way happier and more confident and comfortable according to a bunch of my friends and my counselor. Feeling comfortable in your skin is one of the most underrated and important things that no one really talks about. It's my flesh prison and I deserve to feel happy in it.



BlackMastodon said:


> Milk in tea: yes/no?



I've only had it in chai and I thought it was pretty good so yes.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 13, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> Before I started transitioning I was drinking at least a fifth of liquor and some other drinks a day, going on benders without food for days that involved me puking blood, self harming without realizing it because I was blacked out, and doing whatever other drugs I could get my hands on. I'd just get as fucked up as possible every day and hope I wouldn't wake up the next day so I wouldn't have to live with those feelings anymore.
> 
> Now I'm a sort of mostly recovering alcoholic (I slip up occasionally and have a drink or two but I usually stop after that because if I don't I'll be back to drinking a bottle of whiskey in a few days). I'm way calmer and my anxiety is pretty much completely gone too. I also look way happier and more confident and comfortable according to a bunch of my friends and my counselor. _*Feeling comfortable in your skin is one of the most underrated and important things that no one really talks about.*_ It's my flesh prison and I deserve to feel happy in it.



To me, drinking has been my way of regulating things. I'll have my moments where start getting bad, and I'll start drinking more, and then get to the point where I'll start trying harder stuff, but I've got to the point where I know myself good enough, and I'll tell myself I'll have one more drink before I do that, because drinking is the devil I know and I can control that, and after a while I can get the drinking back down to around normal levels.



God, it took me entirely too long to realize that. I grew up with my parents that made all of my decisions for me, and I "got it all out my system" after I moved out, but I kinda had a mental breakdown because of work and ran out of fucks to give. I started doing all the stuff I wanted to do, but never did because it was "weird". This is the best I've felt myself in I don't know how long.


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## Dame Ningen (Dec 13, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> Getting misgendered makes me kind of sad because I want other people to see me how I see myself but it kinda makes me hopeful because one day they might



Since the really nuanced topic of "how you're perceived in the external world" came up several times in the thread (understandably so), I'd suggest people in this thread to take a look at this YouTube video:



It's an Harvard trained psychiatrist who specializes in addictions and incorporates eastern psychology to his approach talking to one of the most popular transgender youtubers. They try to approach the subject of carefully navigating the line between "accepting yourself" and "being accepted by others", among other topics.

It's an interesting watch that I recommend to anyone in this thread who's interested in better understanding the trans world (it was surely helpful to me).

Since you mentioned problems with alcohol you might also be interested in his lectures on the topic of addiction, even tho his content isn't very well organized and might be somewhat a pain to look up.

I apologize beforehand if this post sounds weird, being autistic and not having much experience typing in English, I often have a hard time evaluating the tone of the post before sending, but I'm really passionate about Dr. Kanojia's work and I can vouch about him being absolutely legit as a mental health professional. Recommended to anyone who struggles with problems typically associated with young people (motivation, addiction, self-esteem, loneliness, etc.), even if you don't actually know much about videogames (his organization uses gaming as the main theme of the brand, but the concepts are applicable to pretty much any human being).


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 13, 2020)

How do you feel about trans women competing in sports? More so Olympic events or weight lifting, in this case, not team sports or combat sports.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

Dame Ningen said:


>




I watched that a while ago cuz I was seeing if a new Contrapoints video came out on Youtube because I like her content but that popped up and it was a good watch. Dr. K is a cool guy. Would recommend.



BlackMastodon said:


> How do you feel about trans women competing in sports? More so Olympic events or weight lifting, in this case, not team sports or combat sports.



I don't really have an opinion on it. It's a touchy subject for some people and since I don't really care about sports it's never been something I thought about. I know that since I started hormones my pain tolerance and physical strength have decreased though. I have the same job I did pre transition and some of the stuff I have to lift and move around is a lot harder to do. Maybe it should be judged on a case by case basis if a transwoman is absolutely destroying everyone else or something.


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## I play music (Dec 13, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> How do you feel about trans women competing in sports? More so Olympic events or weight lifting, in this case, not team sports or combat sports.


Unpopular opinion: If we want gender equality, all genders should compete together without separation between men, women etc.


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## Merrekof (Dec 13, 2020)

I play music said:


> Unpopular opinion: If we want gender equality, all genders should compete together without separation between men, women etc.


I'd say yes! Gender equality goes both ways imo.


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## c7spheres (Dec 13, 2020)

I'll kinda reiterate from the last thread. I think it got shut down to fast for you to reply. I know we talked in PM about stuff but thought i'd post again here to give a chance to discuss. Glad this one hasn't been met with so much flak. 

...
- What's your take on trans? Is it a medical or psychological or physical condition?
- Do you think of it like you were born in the wrong body or with the wrong brain for your body, or your spirit got trapped in the wrong body or something to that effect? Is it possibly a developmental phenomenon?
- I guess what I'm getting at is what is/was the disconnect or issue you have with how you are/were and do you think that's a medical/psycological or physical condition etc..?


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## spudmunkey (Dec 13, 2020)

I play music said:


> Unpopular opinion: If we want gender equality, all genders should compete together without separation between men, women etc.



While on paper that makes sense from one perspective, that's not the "equality" separate events strive for.


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## Randy (Dec 13, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> I'll kinda reiterate from the last thread. I think it got shut down to fast for you to reply. I know we talked in PM about stuff but thought i'd post again here to give a chance to discuss. Glad this one hasn't been met with so much flak.
> 
> ...
> - What's your take on trans? Is it a medical or psychological or physical condition?
> ...



NPR ran a really great hour (2 hours?) long segment about how grey the issue of gender is and one of the subjects they focused on were sports. 

Sports organizations (such as the olympics) have long had restrictions to keep men from competing as women, etc. The problem was that almost none of the metrics are conclusive. One simple option would be genitalia, except intersex and similar vague sexual areas of anatomy are more common than you thing; what if this a penis with no balls or testicles with no penis or a vagina with a small penis, etc? So then they tried doing it through chromosomes, except they found what appeared to be "women" with male configurations, and "men" with female configurations. They tried measuring testosterone, but there were some women that were otherwise unimpressive physically that had huge levels of testosterone higher than even men, and they also couldn't find a correlation between testosterone and performance; they had women with sky high testosterone in dead last in strength or performance sports.

So I mean, gender is a VERY grey area even before you get into the idea of identity. On a genetic level, you could very well have a "woman's" brain in a "man's" body, absolutely. So before you blame transgenderism on psychology, you need to recognize that the separations are very very vague.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> I'll kinda reiterate from the last thread. I think it got shut down to fast for you to reply. I know we talked in PM about stuff but thought i'd post again here to give a chance to discuss. Glad this one hasn't been met with so much flak.
> 
> ...
> - What's your take on trans? Is it a medical or psychological or physical condition?
> ...


I think being trans is kind of a mixture of all of those things. I feel like my brain is in the wrong body and a bunch of stuff doesn't match up so I'm doing what I can to fix it even though I know my body will never completely be the one I want. If I had to guess I the reason people are trangsender is probably hormone levels in the womb. I've always felt female inside and I get really sad when I think about things like the fact that I'll never be able to carry a child or have a baby or have a period for example. I'm fairly certain 99% of cisgender males don't get upset about stuff like that.

My brain is just trapped in a body that has been poisoned by years of testosterone and I'm just trying to reverse what damage I can so I can be happier and more comfortable in my skin.


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## c7spheres (Dec 13, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I think being trans is kind of a mixture of all of those things. I feel like my brain is in the wrong body and a bunch of stuff doesn't match up so I'm doing what I can to fix it even though I know my body will never completely be the one I want. If I had to guess I the reason people are trangsender is probably hormone levels in the womb. I've always felt female inside and I get really sad when I think about things like the fact that I'll never be able to carry a child or have a baby or have a period for example. I'm fairly certain 99% of cisgender males don't get upset about stuff like that.
> 
> My brain is just trapped in a body that has been poisoned by years of testosterone and I'm just trying to reverse what damage I can so I can be happier and more comfortable in my skin.


 Thanks. Do you have to take shots and pills forever, or is that a cycle that eventually ends?


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 13, 2020)

Randy said:


> NPR ran a really great hour (2 hours?) long segment about how grey the issue of gender is and one of the subjects they focused on were sports.


The issue is incredibly grey, and I think that's where the problem for many people comes from. For their whole life they've lived in a binary world in terms of male or female (black or white to keep going with the grey metaphor) and they can't wrap their head around the idea of an entire spectrum in between, or they outright refuse to.

If Brock Lesnar decided he was trans and the UFC didn't have any criteria for trans women competing, you'd best believe she'd be the champ pretty quick. I know this is a pretty ridiculous hypothetical that over simplifies the situation, but my point goes along Randy's, in that I really don't think there's a good way for trans athletes to compete with cisgender ones in the same category. The only thing I can think of is to have a third "open" category where anyone and everyone can compete. That way when we start splicing animal genes with our own in 40 years or some shit, the gazelle-people won't be taking the gold medal in every running event.


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## TedEH (Dec 13, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> The only thing I can think of is to have a third "open" category where anyone and everyone can compete.


The catch or trick with that approach, and similar ones, is that it acknowledges a distinction between trans- and cis- people, which, as I understand it, is something that (at least some) trans people don't want.

See:


SexHaver420 said:


> I personally don't really enjoy being called trans because I want everyone to just refer to me and see me like they do every other woman.



Rather than put words in anyone's mouth, do I have that correct? Maybe consider that my serious-contribution question to the thread -> Do you think of that distinction (or lack of distinction) as a big deal? And if it is a big deal, are you able to describe what about the distinction bothers you?


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 13, 2020)

TedEH said:


> The catch or trick with that approach, and similar ones, is that it acknowledges a distinction between trans- and cis- people, which, as I understand it, is something that (at least some) trans people don't want.
> 
> See:
> 
> ...


This is another difficult grey area when it comes to competing in sports though, right? In everyday life and in society, absolutely; there should be no difference and people deserve to be called how they want to be perseved (female presenting should be referred to as women etc.) but when it comes to sports I don't think this is fair because biological women will almost always get the worst of it.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Thanks. Do you have to take shots and pills forever, or is that a cycle that eventually ends?



I'm probably going to always have to take some sort of estrogen because if I stop taking it my body won't produce enough naturally even if I'm on HRT for a long time as far as I'm aware. Also if I quit taking HRT stuff will start reverting to how it was pre HRT. Things like my body hair will start growing in thicker and faster and my skin will be more oily and less soft. 

I can stop taking testosterone blockers if I get an orchiectomy (removal of testicles) because then my body will make way less natural testosterone though.


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## AxeHappy (Dec 13, 2020)

Don't have the spoons dive into the gender/sex/binaries/bimodal/social construct discussion right now but this:

https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/

is hands down the single best anything I've ever consumed on the subject of trans people and sports.


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## TedEH (Dec 13, 2020)

There's a _lot_ to digest in that article. I'm not a fan of "science hasn't perfected this yet, so we should stop trying", but there's otherwise a lot of interesting info there.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 13, 2020)

My question: do you find yourself at odds with the postmodernist types that deny the objective reality of gender? I guess the way I've been thinking about it, I would expect the trans community to push back on the non-binary/gender-fluidity gender deniers. Super interested to hear what you think about this.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> My question: do you find yourself at odds with the postmodernist types that deny the objective reality of gender? I guess the way I've been thinking about it, I would expect the trans community to push back on the non-binary/gender-fluidity gender deniers. Super interested to hear what you think about this.



Considerning gender is a spectrum and there are historical records of non binary and fluid identities in many asian, native american, and other cultures I think that people who don't believe in them or deny that they exist are stupid assholes.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 13, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> Considerning gender is a spectrum and there are historical records of non binary and fluid identities in many asian, native american, and other cultures I think that people who don't believe in them or deny that they exist are stupid assholes.



I'll suggest that most people sort of just don't think about gender at all, so nuance is beyond them - that might be worth thinking about.

But, that's sort of beside the point.

So if somebody were to say that you're mistaken in thinking that your preferred gender identity is valid on account of gender being an arbitrary social construct, you wouldn't much appreciate it?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'll suggest that most people sort of just don't think about gender at all, so nuance is beyond them - that might be worth thinking about.
> 
> But, that's sort of beside the point.
> 
> So if somebody were to say that you're mistaken in thinking that your preferred gender identity is valid on account of gender being an arbitrary social construct, you wouldn't much appreciate it?



I would probably call them mean words that aren't appropriate to post on this forum and then never speak to them again. So yeah I wouldn't really appreciate it.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 13, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I would probably call them mean words that aren't appropriate to post on this forum and then never speak to them again. So yeah I wouldn't really appreciate it.



Understandably so. I guess the reason I'm asking is that I can't see how that isn't an inevitable problem between the trans crowd and the gender-is-arbitrary crowd. If you're convinced that gender is nonsense, then both cis and trans folks are at odds with you.


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## Necris (Dec 13, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> My question: do you find yourself at odds with the postmodernist types that deny the objective reality of gender? I guess the way I've been thinking about it,* I would expect the trans community to push back on the non-binary/gender-fluidity gender deniers*.


I've witnessed largely the opposite both in person and online for whatever that's worth, from my experience it's mostly people on the outside looking in who want to create a wedge issue out of differing views on gender knowing that successfully doing so will harm the trans community as a whole.


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## AxeHappy (Dec 13, 2020)

In my experience the overwhelming majority of trans people are on board with the definition of trans that is, "Doesn't conform to the gender they were assigned at birth," and thusly include Enbys, Gender Fluid, etc in the trans umbrella. 

There is a small segment of Trans people, pejoratively referred to as Truscumm, who double down on the flawed concept of the gender binary and thusly express dislike of all the various forms of gender non-conforming that aren't trans man or trans woman. They aren't a strong or powerful voice in the community.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 13, 2020)

Necris said:


> I've witnessed largely the opposite both in person and online for whatever that's worth, from my experience it's mostly people on the outside looking in who want to create a wedge issue out of differing views on gender knowing that successfully doing so will harm the trans community as a whole.



I don't like drama, so that's shameful if that's the case. 

I'm saying that I've wondered how the two perspectives don't end up clashing. The one invalidates the other.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

^What the above posts above me said. Also truscum are bad and should never be listened to.


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## TedEH (Dec 13, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> the objective reality of gender


Anyone mind elaborating on this? I thought the whole point was that it was all about subjective experience?

Not gonna lie, the way people have these conversations confuses me more than informs me of anything, and I don't know if it's because people are dancing around what they actually mean to say, or if nobody is saying the same thing.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 13, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Anyone mind elaborating on this? I thought the whole point was that it was all about subjective experience?
> 
> Not gonna lie, the way people have these conversations confuses me more than informs me of anything, and I don't know if it's because people are dancing around what they actually mean to say, or if nobody is saying the same thing.



What that is meant to be read as is, the postmodernism types reject that there *is* any objective nature of gender, in any sense. Therefore, as far as I've been able to tell, the trans person that refuses to tolerate anybody misdengering them by suggesting that they're anything but *precisely* the gender they say they are, is at odds with the postmodernist that says gender is a meaningless invention.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> What that is meant to be read as is, the postmodernism types reject that there *is* any objective nature of gender, in any sense. Therefore, as far as I've been able to tell, the trans person that refuses to tolerate anybody misdengering them by suggesting that they're anything but *precisely* the gender they say they are, is at odds with the postmodernist that says gender is a meaningless invention.



I'm pretty sure 99% of us don't give a shit about stuff like this in real life because we're just trying to live our lives and be happy like everyone else.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 13, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I'm pretty sure 99% of us don't give a shit about stuff like this in real life because we're just trying to live our lives and be happy like everyone else.



I'm happy to hear this anytime somebody says it. I want to believe that reality is nothing like social media.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 13, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'm happy to hear this anytime somebody says it. I want to believe that reality is nothing like social media.



There is a lot more infighting and arguing between the LGBT+ community online than in real life because we don't normally get to discuss stuff like that in person. It's also just a caveman instinct to find your people and group up with them for survival which is usually what happens in queer communities in real life so you have support from others like you.

Internet =/=real life.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 14, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> There is a lot more infighting and arguing between the LGBT+ community online than in real life because we don't normally get to discuss stuff like that in person. It's also just a caveman instinct to find your people and group up with them for survival which is usually what happens in queer communities in real life so you have support from others like you.
> 
> Internet =/=real life.


 Ugh. I try to avoid the LGBT community as much as possible. But that's just a personal thing.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> live our lives and be happy like everyone else


Part of me has to laugh a bit at the implication that the average person is happy.



SexHaver420 said:


> Internet =/=real life.


I mean, it is but it also isn't. This reads to me the same as "it's not my fault, I didn't mean to argue, I was drunk". If you would say it while drunk, or you would say it on the internet, you were still thinking it in the real world one way or another.



Adam Of Angels said:


> the postmodernism types reject that there *is* any objective nature of gender, in any sense.


I'm still very confused. I thought that the current "socially accepted definition" was that gender is an arbitrary social concept that doesn't have any basis in something you can objectively measure (it's not sex, it's not your actions or appearance, it's not your role, etc etc), and that it's instead strictly/unquestionably a self-reported label derived from whatever individual basis a person chooses. I mean, unless I'm entirely missing something, modern "gender" concepts are the very definition of subjective.

And that was my question - What is the objective nature of gender? If we're going to talk about it, then lets be deliberate and specific so that we all understand what's being said. I offered my definition - my understanding of what gender is - what is yours? How do you define gender, and what do you mean by the "objective nature" of it?

I mean, so far we have a small handful of slightly-conflicting vague definitions, and an article that claims there's not even a scientific basis for what sex is. I'm not asking questions to try to be argumentative, I'm asking because I legitimately don't understand where people are coming from.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 14, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Part of me has to laugh a bit at the implication that the average person is happy.
> 
> 
> I mean, it is but it also isn't. This reads to me the same as "it's not my fault, I didn't mean to argue, I was drunk". If you would say it while drunk, or you would say it on the internet, you were still thinking it in the real world one way or another.
> ...



What you're misunderstanding, is the problem that I presented to the OP. As I've understood it, a Trans person is very firm on their gender identity. If they were born a biological male, but now identify as a female, they insist that they're a 100% female, not some bogus wannabe. They're fighting for their identity to be validated.

Then there are the postmodernists that claim that gender is an arbitrary social construct - not real, just used as a tool of oppression. These people would tell a trans person that their gender identity is invalid, because all gender identities are invalid.

Does this make sense? It's a messy confrontation between the two ways of thinking.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

I'd like to say that clears things up, but that doesn't reflect the way I normally encounter people talking about the subject. I thought that the "it's a construct" thing was the accepted/"correct" way that people are supposed to talk about these things. I was under the impression that there isn't any consensus anywhere about every trans person being entirely firm in their identity or their understanding of said identity, and that _lots_ of people think gender is arbitrary, whether they use that as the basis to try to invalidate someone elses identity or not. I'd again invite you to define these things so that I can understand where you're coming from, since I'm still just as confused as before.


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## bostjan (Dec 14, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> What you're misunderstanding, is the problem that I presented to the OP. As I've understood it, a Trans person is very firm on their gender identity. If they were born a biological male, but now identify as a female, they insist that they're a 100% female, not some bogus wannabe. They're fighting for their identity to be validated.
> 
> Then there are the postmodernists that claim that gender is an arbitrary social construct - not real, just used as a tool of oppression. These people would tell a trans person that their gender identity is invalid, because all gender identities are invalid.
> 
> Does this make sense? It's a messy confrontation between the two ways of thinking.


I don't think social constructs need be arbitrary. Crime is a social construct, yet it's effects are tangible. Same with occupation.

Gender is a social construct, and the trouble here is that the younger generations seem to have either a different definition or have not decided on their definition as universally as previous generations did. Thirty years ago, gender was pretty deeply seated as "male, "female," or "no gender," but there is a sizeable movement to add to that. I'm unaware of a large movement to do away with the concept altogether, but it wouldn't take much to convince me that it does.

A person identified by their occupation, which might change over their life. Gender could be similar, as it is a depiction of a person's role in society. Obviously, it's more complex than that simple analogy, but both are social constructs that identify a person's role in some vaguely defined way.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 14, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Part of me has to laugh a bit at the implication that the average person is happy.



It depends on how you define "happy". Elated 24/7? Small minority. Not miserable? Probably most people. Fairly satisfied that they're living in accordance with their values, and getting by in a world that's objectively more comfortable than that known by any of their ancestors? That's the average person, and I think that might be the best approximation for "happy" that we ought to have.



TedEH said:


> I'd like to say that clears things up, but that doesn't reflect the way I normally encounter people talking about the subject. I thought that the "it's a construct" thing was the accepted/"correct" way that people are supposed to talk about these things. I was under the impression that there isn't any consensus anywhere about every trans person being entirely firm in their identity or their understanding of said identity, and that _lots_ of people think gender is arbitrary, whether they use that as the basis to try to invalidate someone elses identity or not. I'd again invite you to define these things so that I can understand where you're coming from, since I'm still just as confused as before.



My personal position is probably the least popular, or rather, the least common. I think that humans are in a constant state of becoming, and incapable of firmly placing their finger on their identity. I think identity is socially negotiated, and therefore practical, but can be pathologized if enough respect isn't given to individuality. 

But I'm not talking about my perspective here. I'm curious as to how the Trans community responds to the people that say gender is a baseless social construct. If you're fighting to have your conviction socially validated, you're up against those who seek to invalidate it. 

Also, to be sure, this stuff isn't exactly settled. There's a compelling argument about how gender is a muddy social construct, and then there's a compelling argument that social constructs are naturally evolved to begin with. I'm interested in all of this, but too many people won't let you get away with trying to have a discussion about it.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 14, 2020)

bostjan said:


> I don't think social constructs need be arbitrary. Crime is a social construct, yet it's effects are tangible. Same with occupation.



You're saying the same thing as I did in my last post, more or less. Social construct, in my opinion, means something like "our best approximation to whatever the thing actually is" rather than "completely baseless and only presented as objective to maintain oppressive power structures", which is what the postmodernists believe. Unfortunately, that's the more popular meaning of the term, today.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

Ok - I think the last couple of posts have actually clarified a lot of where you're coming from, so that makes more sense to me.

My follow up question becomes - either directed at op or Adam or whoever wants to talk about it:
If gender is, to put it the way bostjan did, "a depiction of a person's role in society", then what is that role exactly? Particularly if we're stripping away the attachment to sex, what role does a person play that makes them "male" or "female"?

I mean that in the sense that you can identify yourself by your profession because you perform a role that's specific to that title. You're categorizing yourself on the basis of a performed activity at that point. I call myself a programmer because I write software. I call myself a guitarist because I play a guitar. So therefore I call myself male because ________ .....? I'm curious to see how people fill in that blank.


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## Manurack (Dec 14, 2020)

DudeManBrother said:


> If you’re a boy who thinks he’s a girl; but is attracted to girls: does that make you a lesbian?



Hahahaha


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## c7spheres (Dec 14, 2020)

- I think one of the main problems with communicating about all this stuff is there's way to much semantics going on. - It's like people have to attend night classes to get the terminology straight. Way beyond most people's patience and tolerance level, regardless of subject. 
- To many terms with to many hair splitting definitions to keep track of. It can cause confusion and frustration.


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## Drew (Dec 14, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> - I think one of the main problems with communicating about all this stuff is there's way to much semantics going on. - It's like people have to attend night classes to get the terminology straight. Way beyond most people's patience and tolerance level, regardless of subject.
> - To many terms with to many hair splitting definitions to keep track of. It can cause confusion and frustration.


I think that's typical of any group of people who care very greatly about something, though. 

I mean, perfect example, there's the sort of tongue-in-cheek post about asking the OP how she identifies, if it's "she/her" or a couple long made-up Ibanez model numbers Those are made-up model numbers... but most of us know Ibanez model numbering schemes well enough that we can decipher them pretty well by looking at them, figure out what sort of guitar we're talking about... and in this specific context, "get' the "joke" the dude is making. 

Sure, the level of assumed terminology knowledge and understanding can be pretty high, and can be frustrating for an outsider - I struggle with it too, I didn't know what "cis" meant for YEARS - but that's hardly unique to the trans community. And I say that as a cis guy with a UV7PWH, RG3120TW, RG50RFR, and RG752AHM hanging on my wall.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

I won't speak for c7, but to me, there's no issue with having a lot of terminology, or very specific acronyms, but not everyone uses the same set of semantics - not everyone means the same thing even if they're using the same words. That's why I keep asking what people mean when they say gender. I've yet to encounter any two people who define it the same way.


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## bostjan (Dec 14, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You're saying the same thing as I did in my last post, more or less. Social construct, in my opinion, means something like "our best approximation to whatever the thing actually is" rather than "completely baseless and only presented as objective to maintain oppressive power structures", which is what the postmodernists believe. Unfortunately, that's the more popular meaning of the term, today.


Well, no... a social construct is a concept defined by society. It may approximate a concrete thing, but usually, not.

Identity, in general, is a social construct. It's not just your face, but a name, an ethnicity, a gender, an occupation, etc. Almost all of those things are defined by norms set by society. In 2020, you can change any of those if you like, and if you can afford it. I'd say that, a century ago, you could really only change your name and occupation, and a millenium ago, maybe those, but only if you were extremely privledged.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 14, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Well, no... a social construct is a concept defined by society. It may approximate a concrete thing, but usually, not.
> 
> Identity, in general, is a social construct. It's not just your face, but a name, an ethnicity, a gender, an occupation, etc. Almost all of those things are defined by norms set by society. In 2020, you can change any of those if you like, and if you can afford it. I'd say that, a century ago, you could really only change your name and occupation, and a millenium ago, maybe those, but only if you were extremely privledged.



"Defined by society" is not the same thing as "invented by society." That's the distinction I'm outlining.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 14, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> - I think one of the main problems with communicating about all this stuff is there's way to much semantics going on. - It's like people have to attend night classes to get the terminology straight. Way beyond most people's patience and tolerance level, regardless of subject.
> - To many terms with to many hair splitting definitions to keep track of. It can cause confusion and frustration.



That's like I still don't get the difference in bi and pansexual.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> "Defined by society" is not the same thing as "invented by society." That's the distinction I'm outlining.


I think you might be making distinctions between extremes that aren't really held by anyone (or very many). To be "socially constructed" just means that something has come about socially - it says nothing about why or how. If said construct actually was completely arbitrary and pulled randomly out of nowhere, it would still be "socially constructed". Like names -> there's no reason to refer to someone with a particular sound outside of the social contract that we've decided to give people names, and the practical need for some way to identify people in language.



Adam Of Angels said:


> Social construct, in my opinion, means something like "our best approximation to whatever the thing actually is


^ Whereas this has nothing to do with being a social construct. In a lot of cases, I think you could argue that we've socially-constructed things to be our best approximation of what we think things _should_ be, but calling something a construct doesn't make it descriptive of anything per-se.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 14, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> That's like I still don't get the difference in bi and pansexual.



"bi" means "I like both men and women". Pansexual means "I like everyone" which would include people who don't define themselves by either, aka "Gender non-binary" or "gender non-conformist". Or also possibly people with mixed biology/anatomy (which is more common than many people think).

Then there's "polysexual" which could mean both, but could also exclude either bi or pan, depending on how you interpret "many".
Bi=two
Pan=all
Poly=many

If you only think there's 2 genders, then they all mean the same thing.

If you think there are 3 genders, then "poly" is possibly the same as "pan" because "all" is more than "bi"/"two" so you'd want to differentiate...but "bi" is also multiple as it's more than one.

If you think there are 4 genders, then "poly" would mean 2 or 3 genders, but not necessarily 4... I can wrap my head around 3 genders, but like when talking about spacial dimensions, I can't really get my mind to understand anything beyond 3.


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## Adam Of Angels (Dec 14, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I think you might be making distinctions between extremes that aren't really held by anyone (or very many). To be "socially constructed" just means that something has come about socially - it says nothing about why or how. If said construct actually was completely arbitrary and pulled randomly out of nowhere, it would still be "socially constructed". Like names -> there's no reason to refer to someone with a particular sound outside of the social contract that we've decided to give people names, and the practical need for some way to identify people in language.
> 
> 
> ^ Whereas this has nothing to do with being a social construct. In a lot of cases, I think you could argue that we've socially-constructed things to be our best approximation of what we think things _should_ be, but calling something a construct doesn't make it descriptive of anything per-se.



You haven't encountered the postmodernists. There are people that believe that objectivity doesn't exist, and that if you disagree, it's because you've been brainwashed, by an opressor. 

Anyway, back to my definition of socially constructed: it works specifically in the context of gender. For most of human history, the way we've thought about gender has been perfectly reasonable. It's been approximately correct, if not objectively correct. As time goes on, perhaps it becomes less sensible, and society begins to renegotiate the definition, hopefully landing on a more agreeable and functional approximation.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 14, 2020)

Adam Of Angels said:


> As time goes on, perhaps it becomes less sensible, and society begins to renegotiate the definition, hopefully landing on a more agreeable and functional approximation.



Where did gender come from, anyway? Because it's my understanding that sex was always the 'official' term used to differentiate between male/female, yet the two terms seem to have been used largely interchangeably up until relatively recently. There must have always been a distinction, otherwise why have two words? 



Adam Of Angels said:


> Then there are the postmodernists that claim that gender is an arbitrary social construct - not real, just used as a tool of oppression. These people would tell a trans person that their gender identity is invalid, because all gender identities are invalid



I don't think the two lines of thinking are as fundamentally at odds with each other as you may think.
The conclusion that gender is a social construct wouldn't necessarily mean that any gender-based labels are 'invalid,' moreso that they're all just words that don't really have any intrinsic definition beside what we give them, and that people can collectively approximate a loose definition that serves as a safe assumption to start with. 

So you have Camp A saying that it's all technically nonsense, and then you have Camp B, who uses those nonsense labels to try and convey their thoughts and feelings to others in a way that they can understand. The comparison has been brought up before, but it's a lot like music genres. We all know that they're different, but we all have different ideas behind what marks each one. I know for a _*fact*_ almost everyone in this thread has used 'Death Metal' to refer to something that is absolutely _*not*_ death metal because you know that's what the person you're talking to will understand. 

That's my perspective, anyway. I think it's just a communication thing. With that idea, it seems plausible that the two groups wouldn't have too much friction.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 14, 2020)

If you could take your gender theory talk to pms and that would be great and i'd really appreciate it. It's not really what the point of the thread is. 

Thanks.

People should just identify with whatever makes them happy and it shouldn't matter if they're not hurting anyone.



BornToLooze said:


> That's like I still don't get the difference in bi and pansexual.





spudmunkey said:


> "bi" means "I like both men and women". Pansexual means "I like everyone" which would include people who don't define themselves by either, aka "Gender non-binary" or "gender non-conformist". Or also possibly people with mixed biology/anatomy (which is more common than many people think).
> 
> Then there's "polysexual" which could mean both, but could also exclude either bi or pan, depending on how you interpret "many".
> Bi=two
> ...



Being bisexual means the ability to be attracted to multiple genders. Plural. BisexuaIity is in no way trans/enby exclusive. Being pansexual means someones gender identity doesn't matter to you as far as I'm concerned. 

More questions would be neat.


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## TheInvisibleHand (Dec 14, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> People should just identify with whatever makes them happy and it shouldn't matter if they're not hurting anyone.
> 
> 
> 
> .




Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> If you could take your gender theory talk to pms and that would be great and i'd really appreciate it. It's not really what the point of the thread is.


I don't mean this to sound funny, but if the point of the thread was to - in your own words - 


SexHaver420 said:


> educate them on transgender issues


then gender is sort of core to transgender issues, isn't it?

IMO you have an audience here who I think have demonstrated that they're willing to take in other people's perspectives. I was honestly hoping that any time I asked a question that you'd be the one to jump in and answer it, since you're the person to whom they'd be most applicable, and you arguably have a sort of inside perspective that others might not.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 14, 2020)

I'll go back and reread everything when I get off work and make a long post. I just dont have time to do it on my break


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## AxeHappy (Dec 14, 2020)

Little bits I'd like to respond to and I'm too lazy to quote so: 

Bi is attraction to two or more genders, pan is attraction *regardless* of gender. My wife goes by Bi, I go by pan. The specific argument about bisexuality being transphobic is a bunch of history and comes from back in the day most people were transphobic so most bi people were transphobic and pan came about as a way to say that one didn't have that problem and blah blah blah. Nowadays this isn't really an issue. 

Post Modern philosophy merely means that one doesn't think, as the modernist did, that one grand explanation can explain *everything* and there is a *massive* amount of post modern philosophy dealing with all sorts of subjects. Most the stuff that has stood the test of time is indeed something like what Adam has suggested except there is plenty of stuff that doesn't deal with oppressors at all. Literally everything that involves language having to be subjective is pretty solid philosophy that's been around for a while. 

Sexologists decided to change the definition of gender (from an academic standpoint) in the 1970s. It has slowly been filtering down into public consciousness. 

There isn't really much debate about gender at the academic or expert level anymore. It's mostly just the public arguing about having to accept the reality of it as it is a pretty massive change from the CisHetMono Normativity that many of us were raised in. 

I'm a gender abolitionist, and yes we definitely exist, and it turns out that if one accepts that gender is an arbitrary construct that has changed massively throughout history and in many cultures has had all sorts of options outside of the Man/Woman binary and what roles various genders are expecting to fulfill seem to change, almost at random, throughout time and cultures that you won't have a problem with whatever gender one feels comfortable being. I've *never* heard of any Enbys having any issue with the more binary trans people. Also, again, as I feel like this may have been missed earlier based of language that non-binary, gender fluid, gender non-conforming, agender, etc people are all trans people. The gender abolitionist arguments that come from TERFs are an entire other discussion, and I don't wish to pull too far from our OP's intent

Trans is *not* short for transitioning. The term comes from organic chemistry, just like cis. One can choose to transition as much, or as little, as they want or feel comfortable with and this has no bearing whatsoever on who they are. 

I actually think the trans sexual vs trans gender thing is interesting, and likely could be a useful distinction but...trans sexual was used as a slur for quite a while so it is a pretty stained term that most avoid. I'm personally fine with it but I respect other trans people who despise that term. Much like many old members of the GSRM community (Gender, Sexual, Romantic Minorities. A much better acronym than LGBTQ+ imo) feel that Queer is a savage slur and I absolutely respect that and won't use that term for or around them, even though much of the younger community has embraced the term as a loving catchall instead of listing every useful identifier they might have.


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## Necris (Dec 14, 2020)

TheInvisibleHand said:


> Isn't it ironic, don't ya think?


I don't see any contradiction between wanting to offer insight into trans issues and wanting to be able to live as one desires as long as it isnt harming anyone. One is necessary to achieve the other. In our current reality lacking knowedge and misconceptions about trans people are working against that greater aim and instead have led to trans people being pushed to the fringes of society, used as convenient political scapegoats, and dehumanized etc. Outreach and attempts to educate are difficult undertakings but are necessary at present.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

AxeHappy said:


> I actually think the trans sexual vs trans gender thing is interesting, and likely could be a useful distinction but...trans sexual was used as a slur for quite a while so it is a pretty stained term that most avoid.


This I wouldn't have known, and does explain some of what I was aiming for with that question (if that's what this was in response to), so thanks for that.


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## Manurack (Dec 14, 2020)

Why did my replies get deleted? Does SSO not have a sense of humour anymore? Or is the OP's parent a moderator? I replied as a fucking joke with the Ibanez RG name FFS.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 14, 2020)

AxeHappy said:


> Stuff



I agree with pretty much everything in this post and it'll save me a lot of time because now I don't feel like I have to write a long one.

There are a few reasons I didn't respond to a bunch of the longer posts

1. I'm kinda stupid

2. I don't know or care enough about philosophy to talk about it with people smarter than me on the internet

3. I just don't really want to talk about things like the nature of gender because I just think that sex is what chromosomes you're born with and gender is how you feel and describe yourself.

4. I don't really like to think about gender super deeply other than what I feel mine is because a lot of the time it makes me kind of dysphoric because I think about things like "no matter what I do with my hair and makeup and voice I just get called sir at work all day".


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## spudmunkey (Dec 14, 2020)

Manurack said:


> Why did my replies get deleted? Does SSO not have a sense of humour anymore? Or is the OP's parent a moderator? I replied as a fucking joke with the Ibanez RG name FFS.



Your "joke" was posting something that is insulting and was supposed to apparently be a sarcastic joke that we were all supposed to "get"? It was posted with zero context that it was anything but meant at face value. Poe's Law, and all that. Whether you meant it as an insult or not, that's how it read (to me at least, and I'm not a mod, so someone else felt the same).


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 14, 2020)

Manurack said:


> Why did my replies get deleted? Does SSO not have a sense of humour anymore? Or is the OP's parent a moderator? I replied as a fucking joke with the Ibanez RG name FFS.



Because it's transphobic whether you think it is or not. It's a slightly more creative version of the attack helicopter joke that's really low effort and stupid. I don't really even mind if you make transphobic comments or jokes on this thread but you at least need to apply yourself and make them sort of amusing.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 14, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> 3. I just don't really want to talk about things like the nature of gender because I just think that sex is what chromosomes you're born with and gender is how you feel and describe yourself.




That actually makes all this kinda stuff make a lot more sense. I've always just looked at it as 2 words for the same thing.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 14, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> That actually makes all this kinda stuff make a lot more sense. I've always just looked at it as 2 words for the same thing.


This was basically the norm up until the last decade or so, I feel like we used the 2 words interchangeably all the time as a society.


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## TedEH (Dec 14, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> 1. I'm kinda stupid


Most people are stupid on some level, so if you honestly think that, then you're at least in good company.



SexHaver420 said:


> 2. I don't know or care enough about philosophy to talk about it with people smarter than me on the internet


Me neither, I'm far from an expert, but somehow that never stopped me. There's an expression something like if you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room.



SexHaver420 said:


> 3. I just don't really want to talk about things like the nature of gender because I just think that sex is what chromosomes you're born with and gender is how you feel and describe yourself.


Why post the thread if you don't want to talk about it?



SexHaver420 said:


> 4. I don't really like to think about gender super deeply other than what I feel mine is because a lot of the time it makes me kind of dysphoric because I think about things like "no matter what I do with my hair and makeup and voice I just get called sir at work all day".


This is something I don't understand. If it's going to be something that you use as the basis for who you are and how you present yourself to the world, why would you not want to think deeply about it?

I'll reiterate that I'm not asking to criticize, I'm asking because I genuinely don't understand - and you did post multiple threads asking people to ask you questions so that you could educate them.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 14, 2020)

Manurack said:


> Why did my replies get deleted? Does SSO not have a sense of humour anymore? Or is the OP's parent a moderator? I replied as a fucking joke with the Ibanez RG name FFS.


because that joke was on some lame facebook uncle level of quality. do better, sweaty


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Why post the thread if you don't want to talk about it?
> 
> This is something I don't understand. If it's going to be something that you use as the basis for who you are and how you present yourself to the world, why would you not want to think deeply about it?
> 
> I'll reiterate that I'm not asking to criticize, I'm asking because I genuinely don't understand - and you did post multiple threads asking people to ask you questions so that you could educate them.



The third part part was directed at the whole philosophical part that was going on. I genuinely don't know enough about philosophy to think I can contribute to the philosophical part of the conversation. I can just say how I feel and those seem to be two different things.

The fourth part is that I don't really think about my gender anymore. I've thought about it and questioned it for about 20 years and I've finally come to peace with who I am on the inside. I don't really need to think about it anymore. I'm doing what I can to make the outside match as best I can. If I think about it or worry about it too much some really difficult old memories come up sometimes. I have a counselor who helps me deal with stuff like that and it's still pretty rough a lot of the time.

Sorry for not being more clear about what I mean. It's my weekend tomorrow and I'm tired and kind of out of it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

....can we talk about that weird straight guy fear of "he/shes" tricking them into sex? This comes up way more than it should when on the topic of trans/crossdressers/drag queens, etc. I feel like the vast majority of transphobia comes from the homophobic fear men have of being "forced" to have sex with another man. There are still places where the "gay panic" defense is legally accepted for when some guy kills a trans woman.

Now to be fair..99% of the time a guy dealing with a trans woman knows he's dealing with one because those guys specifically look for those girls. I loathe chasers with an absolute passion and have threatened to crack the skulls of quite a few of them. It's impossible to have sex with a trans woman and somehow not know it unless you're from another planet and have no clue how sex with women works.

Beyond that it wasn't until I did drag that I understood just how goddamn stupid a lot of straight men are. All they see is titties and they pay no attention to anything else. I've been hit on a million times and it's painfully obvious that I'm a drag queen, yet they legit don't know until I tell them and then they back off.

How do you look at a 6'7 300lb woman with giant eyebrows, inhumanly large top and bottom lashes, and more makeup than a circus clown and think "Yup...nothing out of the ordinary here"


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Chasers etc.



The reason straight men attack transgender women after they find out they're trans is because they're insecure. They think it somehow "makes them gay" for being attracted to them and their friends will make fun of them if they find out. They don't want to be seen as less of a man. Trans women are still women so they're just stupid.

Chasers are gross and shouldn't exist. For those of you who aren't aware chasers are people (mostly men) who are attracted to and fetishize transgender people just for their genitals.

I mean this is the least sexist way possible but I'm 100% certain more men think with their dicks than their brains. I also think everyone could use a bit less testosterone because I can confirm that it helps a lot with that issue.

Also drag is cool and fun so keep doing that.


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## Manurack (Dec 15, 2020)

Wow. Pansies.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> The reason straight men attack transgender women after they find out they're trans is because they're insecure. They think it somehow "makes them gay" for being attracted to them and their friends will make fun of them if they find out. They don't want to be seen as less of a man. Trans women are still women so they're just stupid. Chasers are gross and shouldn't exist.
> 
> I mean this is the least sexist way possible but I'm 100% certain more men think with their dicks than their brains. I also think everyone could use a bit less testosterone because I can confirm that it helps a lot with that issue.
> 
> Also drag is cool and fun so keep doing that.


Yup. Guys are super insecure and feel like being attracted to a "man" makes them gay.

Chasers are the fucking worst. I hate them so much that I won't even tolerate a guy hitting on me while I'm in drag even if he's into me out of drag. Hard no. When I was first starting out I would be at least somewhat nice to them because they tipped a lot if you were nice..but as time went on I wouldn't even bother taking their money. Fuck dem bitches.

And yeah I quit drag years ago. I don't plan on going back to it, but I honestly recommend all men to try it for a while. You start to understand a lot of what cis and trans women go through on a daily basis.


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## c7spheres (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....can we talk about that weird straight guy fear of "he/shes" tricking them into sex? This comes up way more than it should when on the topic of trans/crossdressers/drag queens, etc. I feel like the vast majority of transphobia comes from the homophobic fear men have of being "forced" to have sex with another man. There are still places where the "gay panic" defense is legally accepted for when some guy kills a trans woman.
> 
> Now to be fair..99% of the time a guy dealing with a trans woman knows he's dealing with one because those guys specifically look for those girls. I loathe chasers with an absolute passion and have threatened to crack the skulls of quite a few of them. It's impossible to have sex with a trans woman and somehow not know it unless you're from another planet and have no clue how sex with women works.
> 
> ...






SexHaver420 said:


> The reason straight men attack transgender women after they find out they're trans is because they're insecure. They think it somehow "makes them gay" for being attracted to them and their friends will make fun of them if they find out. They don't want to be seen as less of a man. Trans women are still women so they're just stupid. Chasers are gross and shouldn't exist.
> 
> I mean this is the least sexist way possible but I'm 100% certain more men think with their dicks than their brains. I also think everyone could use a bit less testosterone because I can confirm that it helps a lot with that issue.
> 
> Also drag is cool and fun so keep doing that.



Whats wrong with guys that chase trans women? Doesn't everyone chase whatever they like? What do you mean by chasers?


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 15, 2020)

re: straight men

gay men can be all of the same sorts of stupid and predatory that straight men are. i used to work in the castro here in sf, and there is definitely a seedy underbelly of sorts. i've had friends roofied and woken up in strange places. sexual assault. underage prostitution. it's just a thing with men, no matter their orientation

the drinking/drug culture associated with the gay lifestyle helps exacerbate things, too


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Whats wrong with guys that chase trans women? Doesn't everyone chase whatever they like? What do you mean by chasers?


"Tranny Chasers" are obsessive dudes who chase anything with a dick in a skirt.

They don't bother acknowledging the distinction between crossdressers, drag queens, and trans women.

They fetishize the whole chicks with dicks thing. They're pushy, always sexually harassing girls, and are generally creepy.

Not to mention you will NEVER see these dudes advocating for trans rights. These guys will NEVER actually protect trans people. The vast majority of the time they're the ones killing them because they don't want their cover to be blown. These guys don't actually love trans women, they see them as porn fantasies and often prey on them BECAUSE they know society looks down on them. They figure they can get away with harassing, beating, mistreating, killing trans women because no one is gonna care.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> re: straight men
> 
> gay men can be all of the same sorts of stupid and predatory that straight men are. i used to work in the castro here in sf, and there is definitely a seedy underbelly of sorts. i've had friends roofied and woken up in strange places. sexual assault. underage prostitution. it's just a thing with men, no matter their orientation.
> 
> the drinking/drug culture associated with the gay lifestyle helps exacerbate things, too



I'm well aware of how predatory and weird gay men can be too. Something something Grindr app pre transition. Most of the people who messaged me on there thought they could turn me gay because I'm bi because they thought I was straight and they had a straight guy fetish. It made me feel pretty gross. I don't miss being late teens/early 20s and really lonely just because of stuff like that.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> re: straight men
> 
> gay men can be all of the same sorts of stupid and predatory that straight men are. i used to work in the castro here in sf, and there is definitely a seedy underbelly of sorts. i've had friends roofied and woken up in strange places. sexual assault. underage prostitution. it's just a thing with men, no matter their orientation


 You're doing that "Not all men!" thing that some guys do when women say men are creeps.

We're specifically talking about straight men because of how they view LGBT people and their views are why they target those types and rely on the balance of power regarding "normal" people and LGBT people.

Gay men aren't doing that..some of them are just creeps because they're creeps.

Not to mention gay men don't beat the shit out of straight guys. Gay men don't kill straight men for being straight. Gay men aren't sleeping with straight men undercover while passing laws to take away the rights of straight people. Gay men don't actively build oppressive institutions and preach about the immorality of straight people.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You're doing that "Not all men!" thing that some guys do when women say men are creeps.
> 
> We're specifically talking about straight men because of how they view LGBT people and their views are why they target those types and rely on the balance of power regarding "normal" people and LGBT people.
> 
> ...


ok, but i was saying men can be just as predatory and abusive no matter their orientation. not sure how you got "not all men" out of that.

men prey upon other men, just as they do women and trans people. 
gay guys absolutely beat the shit out of, and in some instances kill their partners.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> ok, but i was saying men can be just as predatory and abusive no matter their orientation. not sure how you got "not all men" out of that.
> 
> men prey upon other men, just as they do women and trans people.
> gay guys absolutely beat the shit out of, and in some instances kill their partners.



Again, we are talking about straight men preying on a minority.

No one is saying gay men can't be bad people..but they don't do it based on institutional prejudice and the privilege afforded by their orientation. That's a straight dude thing.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 15, 2020)

i get what you were saying. i was making an aside, since someone brought up straight men.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 15, 2020)

homophobic violence against trans people perpetuated by straight men is one thing. domestic violence between gay men is another. but they are both symptomatic of the cat and mouse game that men play.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

@SexHaver420, I know you've got some chaser stories. Do tell. I've got quite a few


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 15, 2020)

I actually don't. I haven't even tried to date or hookup with anyone since I started transitioning. I'm pretty insecure about all of it and trying to date men as a woman is weird and new and scary to me. The closest I've got is being catcalled a few times walking to 711. I don't really live in a super big city either and it's hard to go on a date or meet people because all indoor dining and stuff is closed because of covid.

Also I have 0 sex drive now and all I want to do is cuddle with someone cute and I have some friends who are girls for that.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I actually don't. I haven't even tried to date or hookup with anyone since I started transitioning. I'm pretty insecure about all of it and trying to date men as a woman is weird and new and scary to me. The closest I've got is being catcalled a few times walking to 711. I don't really live in a super big city either and it's hard to go on a date or meet people because all indoor dining and stuff is closed because of covid.
> 
> Also I have 0 sex drive now and all I want to do is cuddle with someone cute and I have some friends who are girls for that.



Giiirl....get ready cause the fuckshit is coming, lol.

Unrequested dick pics constantly, weirdo crazy messages, all kinds of nonsense. To be fair a lot of it will be hilarious, especially when you get used to it.

And don't worry, you WILL get used to it.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Giiirl....get ready cause the fuckshit is coming, lol.
> 
> Unrequested dick pics constantly, weirdo crazy messages, all kinds of nonsense. To be fair a lot of it will be hilarious, especially when you get used to it.
> 
> And don't worry, you WILL get used to it.



I've used Grindr before so I know what I'm in for. Hopefully I'll get less unsolicited butthole pics tho.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I've used Grindr before so I know what I'm in for. Hopefully I'll get less unsolicited butthole pics tho.


Nope. LOTS of married guys and whatnot looking to bottom for t-girls. The best thing is sharing the crazy pics and stuff you get with friends. Me and my friends used to die laughing and some of the shit we got.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....can we talk about that weird straight guy fear of "he/shes" tricking them into sex?


You've gone right for the most extreme version of that, but if you take the malicious edge out of that statement, the literally "they're trying to trick me!" part, then I don't think this is a very difficult thing to work out -> relationships/dating/sex/etc make people insecure to begin with, and depending on what you think gender is, you might feel like you've been lied to (by omission) if you don't know the whole story, which conflicts with the desire to not distinguish between trans and cis people. I can understand certain views might say that this shouldn't matter, but it's equally easy to understand that not everyone shares that view. You start getting into that really hairy situation of whether or not it's "ok" to not be attracted to trans people. I see two conflicting goals -> The freedom to be attracted or not to whoever you want, vs the freedom to be recognized as indistinct from cis. It's "you can make any distinction you want" vs "you're not allowed to make any distinctions". 



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Guys are super insecure and feel like being attracted to a "man" makes them gay.


Uuuuh.... is that not the definition of being gay? If a man being attracted to another man is not what makes him gay, then what does?



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> but they don't do it based on institutional prejudice and the privilege afforded by their orientation. That's a straight dude thing


I think you're falsely attributing a specific type of malice to strait dudes and I don't understand why. Any kind of person can be creepy or inappropriate, there's nothing special about it when it's done by a strait guy.


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## BlackMastodon (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> ....can we talk about that weird straight guy fear of "he/shes" tricking them into sex? This comes up way more than it should when on the topic of trans/crossdressers/drag queens, etc. I feel like the vast majority of transphobia comes from the homophobic fear men have of being "forced" to have sex with another man. There are still places where the "gay panic" defense is legally accepted for when some guy kills a trans woman.


It even came up in here, but over the last few years I gotta laugh whenever a straight guy says something like "well he isn't hitting on me so I don't mind" about a gay guy. I mean I've said it when I was a teenager and didn't know my hand from my ass, but now I can recognize that it all falls under the gay panic thing. The average straight guy seems to REALLY think that everyone wants to fuck them and he needs to chase them away with a stick.


TedEH said:


> Uuuuh.... is that not the definition of being gay? If a man being attracted to another man is not what makes him gay, then what does?


I don't necessarily think this is true. For example, I'm very attracted to Henry Cavill but still consider myself straight. Do I wanna fuck him? Nah. Do I think he's RIDICULOUSLY handsome and charming and likes a lot of the same nerdy shit that I do so I wanna be friends with him and meet his dog? Fuck yeah.

So I guess it's splitting hairs but I'd say you can be attracted to someone without being sexually attracted to them.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> You've gone right for the most extreme version of that, but if you take the malicious edge out of that statement, the literally "they're trying to trick me!" part, then I don't think this is a very difficult thing to work out -> relationships/dating/sex/etc make people insecure to begin with, and depending on what you think gender is, you might feel like you've been lied to (by omission) if you don't know the whole story, which conflicts with the desire to not distinguish between trans and cis people. I can understand certain views might say that this shouldn't matter, but it's equally easy to understand that not everyone shares that view. You start getting into that really hairy situation of whether or not it's "ok" to not be attracted to trans people. I see two conflicting goals -> The freedom to be attracted or not to whoever you want, vs the freedom to be recognized as indistinct from cis. It's "you can make any distinction you want" vs "you're not allowed to make any distinctions".
> 
> 
> Uuuuh.... is that not the definition of being gay? If a man being attracted to another man is not what makes him gay, then what does?
> ...


All of this has already been explained. Also men is in quotation marks for a reason


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

I was trying to make the point that I don't think there's very much of a legitimate fear from strait dudes that they're going to be literally forced into sex - but I _can _speak to a legitimate fear of not wanting to be stuck in a situation of rejecting someone in a dating situation because they are trans, you're not into it, and now you're labelled and as "transphobic". I agree with you that any sort of panic that you're going to be assaulted by trans people is pretty ridiculous.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I was trying to make the point that I don't think there's very much of a legitimate fear from strait dudes that they're going to be literally forced into sex - but I _can _speak to a legitimate fear of not wanting to be stuck in a situation of rejecting someone in a dating situation because they are trans, you're not into it, and now you're labelled and as "transphobic". I agree with you that any sort of panic that you're going to be assaulted by trans people is pretty ridiculous.


The gay panic defense literally stems from the idea that it's reasonable for a man to freak out and defend himself against a "man pretending to be a woman" in order to trick the straight guy into sex. It's called the gay panic defense because the straight man is seen as literally defending himself from an sexual predator.

The deviant "man in disguise" has been a trope since forever. It's been in movies, books, etc. Go to facebook, find a post about trans women and check out all the straight people claiming that men are posing as women in order to sleep with straight men. As a former drag queen and someone who knows several people under the trans umbrella and having experienced it myself, I can tell you it's most definitely a fear of lots of stupid straight men.

They aren't worried about offending trans people, they're worried about being tricked into being gay as if such a thing were possible.

I do agree that some men worry about not navigating romantic encounters with trans people because they don't want to be rude. I was the same way at one point.

Romance, attraction, etc aren't always PC playing fields. Sometimes you find out that certain things just don't do it for you. How you react and handle it makes all the difference.


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## Randy (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I _can _speak to a legitimate fear of not wanting to be stuck in a situation of rejecting someone in a dating situation because they are trans, you're not into it



In what context? Like, you meet at a bar, fall in love, visit Rome and on your honeymoon night you find out they have a penis and you call the whole thing off?

I mean, because in any other contexts it's like anything else in dating. Meet a girl online, meetup in person and she doesn't look like her profile pic and there's no attraction, now you have to decide whether or not to finish the date and how to let her down. Because if you characterize that as a "fear", then it's a stretch.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

Randy said:


> In what context? Like, you meet at a bar, fall in love, visit Rome and on your honeymoon night you find out they have a penis and you call the whole thing off?
> 
> I mean, because in any other contexts it's like anything else in dating. Meet a girl online, meetup in person and she doesn't look like her profile pic and there's no attraction, now you have to decide whether or not to finish the date and how to let her down. Because if you characterize that as a "fear", then it's a stretch.



I think what he's saying is there's an anxiety in not handling the situation properly and coming off as a bigot...or thinking you're cool with it until you realize you aren't and then the awkwardness of backing out of the situation without seeming like an asshole.


There was a time where I wasn't sure I could hook up with a trans dude because I wasn't sure how it would go. Knowing trans people and knowing how they can sometimes view themselves as well as having first hand experience of being rejected, I didn't want to treat a trans guy like some sort of endurance test that I'd chicken out on. I didn't want to make them feel like an experiment.

Then eventually I just got over it. The key? Treat them like any other dude, because they are.

I will say though, dating a trans person often means supporting them and being there for them during the trans journey. Straight guys often don't have experience with that sort of thing and can't empathize in maybe a way a gay guy could. So it may be somewhat intimidating trying to date a trans woman and not make her feel bad.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

You're both taking what I say to the farthest possible extreme.


Randy said:


> In what context?


In any context. Like meet at a bar, decide you're not into it, suddenly you're an asshole.



Randy said:


> I mean, because in any other contexts it's like anything else in dating.


You're right, it's mostly like any other awkward dating situation. I wasn't trying to suggest it wasn't...
Except that it potentially comes with a "you are no longer a socially acceptable person" label.

Let's reframe that example a bit - and again, I'm exaggerating for effect - but I do know people who like to screenshot their tinder conversations and shame people online who don't live up to their standards. Say you get a match, try to back out because you're not interested, get called a transphobe, it gets posted around the internet, and suddenly you're in HR having to defend why they should continue to employ a supposed bigot.

Maybe that sounds ridiculous depending on your work environment, but we've had issues come up for things as simple as "referring to a group as 'guys'", or one person who got in trouble for using the word "dude" while holding the door open for someone.

Again, I'm exaggerating a bit - I don't actually think I'm going to get fired because I anger someone during a date that went poorly - but I don't deny it could happen, and I can understand why someone would think it's a very real risk.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I think what he's saying is there's an anxiety in not handling the situation properly and coming off as a bigot


Yes. Thank you.

I don't think it's a stretch to call it a fear. Even just posting in the thread at all feels kinda risky cause some people make big deals out of this stuff.


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## Randy (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I do know people who like to screenshot their tinder conversations and shame people online who don't live up to their standards.



That is world class shitty, full stop.

Anyway, I still think it's a little gay panic-y.

And I don't mean that as a criticsm, I've been in bars and approached by gay or trans folks before and didn't handle it especially well (I was younger) because I was concerned about how other people would interpret me being seen talking to them. And that's not entirely unfounded either, because I've been attacked for being "seen" talking to LGBT people before. As late as a couple years ago I had people yell "FAAAG!" at me going into a bar just because a friend of mine is gay.

So anyway, I'll concede that an unwanted advance from a trans person is maybe received differently than it is from a person of the opposite sex. It's just a matter of filtering out if that's because of your bias or something external. 

I personally identify primarily as a straight male, but I will say that my mind became way more open when I was removed from the fear of how other people would treat me as some kind of motivating factor.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

Randy said:


> That is world class shitty, full stop.


I tend to agree, but it's the kind of thing that facebook eats up like candy.



Randy said:


> Anyway, I still think it's a little gay panic-y.


On some level, maybe.



Randy said:


> So anyway, I'll concede that an unwanted advance from a trans person is maybe received differently than it is from a person of the opposite sex.


I don't know that I see the instance in itself, on the surface of it, being any different than any other unwanted advances - but I _can _see things potentially going very south if the rejection only happens after the reveal of being trans happens - which I'd like to say I don't think would ever happen, but I don't think that's realistic.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I see the instance in itself, on the surface of it, being any different than any other unwanted advances - but I _can _see things potentially going very south if the rejection only happens after the reveal of being trans happens - which I'd like to say I don't think would ever happen, but I don't think that's realistic.



Honestly a trans girl is more likely to tell you before things got too far, and she's expecting you to cut the situation off after that. She's giving you the option of bowing out as to not waste her time and yours. It's not likely a trans girl is gonna blow you up to the world about you being a transphobe unless you handle it wrong.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

You're probably right.


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## AxeHappy (Dec 15, 2020)

It's pretty rare that trans people consider having genital preference to be transphobic. I have definitely seen it but it isn't a common opinion, especially as not an inconsiderable amount of trans people have genital preferences themselves. 

Being completely unwilling to be in any sort of romantic relationship with a trans person simply *because* they're trans though? That'll definitely get one some side eyes.


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## bostjan (Dec 15, 2020)

AxeHappy said:


> It's pretty rare that trans people consider having genital preference to be transphobic. I have definitely seen it but it isn't a common opinion, especially as not an inconsiderable amount of trans people have genital preferences themselves.
> 
> Being completely unwilling to be in any sort of romantic relationship with a trans person simply *because* they're trans though? That'll definitely get one some side eyes.



That's a subtle difference for most people.


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## AxeHappy (Dec 15, 2020)

Not really. Someone being trans tells you nothing about what their fun gear is.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

bostjan said:


> That's a subtle difference for most people.


+1

But also I don't think it's unreasonable that people would just not want to put themselves in a position of having to have that conversation. It's stops being about just plain dating, and becomes a political conversation, a social conversation, a semantics conversation, a philosophical conversation, etc etc.



AxeHappy said:


> Not really. Someone being trans tells you nothing about what their fun gear is.


The fun gear is not the entirety of a person, and IMO, not necessarily the reason in itself that a person would be uninterested. It sort of falls outside the scope of what I was trying to get at with my comment.


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## AxeHappy (Dec 15, 2020)

But directly relates to my comment and the response to it and points out that it really isn't a subtle difference at all.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

I'll rephrase to clarify what I mean...



AxeHappy said:


> It's pretty rare that trans people consider having genital preference to be transphobic.


I wouldn't expect that to be a big deal for anyone, but I strongly suspect that's not the (only) reason people wouldn't be into it.



AxeHappy said:


> Being completely unwilling to be in any sort of romantic relationship with a trans person simply *because* they're trans though? That'll definitely get one some side eyes.


I don't know how to phrase this in a way that won't sound bad if you disagree - I would suspect that most who don't want to date on the basis of being trans are making that decision, at least in part, on the basis of assuming that there will be clashes in worldview that would be irreconcilable, even putting "the fun gear" entirely out of the equation.


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## Randy (Dec 15, 2020)

Works better if you provide a practical example.


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## AxeHappy (Dec 15, 2020)

If you switch trans out for black in that sentence you can understand why indeed that does sound quite bad.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

What I mean is that given how hairy things get when you ask people to define gender - it would be difficult to date someone who doesn't define it the same way you do if those definitions are in opposition to each other. If you believe gender is a shortcut for sex, then you're not going to get along in a dating context with someone who believes gender is entirely detached from sex. I think it would be reasonable to not want to enter into that conversation in the first place - given how squirrelly people get when you ask them questions about these things.


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## bostjan (Dec 15, 2020)

AxeHappy said:


> Not really. Someone being trans tells you nothing about what their fun gear is.



It's not even about what's right or wrong. But I'd be willing to bet that the majority of adults in western culture would relate either of those situations with some amount of emotional pain due to broken trust.

Like, how do I equate this to something in my own life? For example, hypothetically, if I found out today that my wife of 12 years used to be a completely different person, and she had kept that hidden from me, would my first inclination be:
a) I would be totally ecstatic and outwardly supportive of her new identity!
or
b) I would feel hurt that she lied to me and didn't trust me with the information, and demand an explanation?

Think about Rachel, oh I can't remember her last name Dolezal or something (I probably have that wrong). Did anyone care whether she was black or white? Yes. Why? Because many people felt that she had deliberately bent the truth about her heritage in order to deceive them. Same situation, but instead, if she had been up front about who she was, I don't think people would have cared. Me personally, I didn't see it as a big deal, but I didn't get a positive opinion of her either, based on trust and that was all.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

I'll put out there, for the record, that I'm not in any way trying to imply that trans people are trying to deceive anyone, in dating contexts or otherwise.


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## c7spheres (Dec 15, 2020)

AxeHappy said:


> ....
> Being completely unwilling to be in any sort of romantic relationship with a trans person simply *because* they're trans though? That'll definitely get one some side eyes.



I might not understand where the conversation is at right now, but I'm straight so would I be considered transphobic because I don't want to date trans women?


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 15, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> I might not understand where the conversation is at right now, but I'm straight so would I be considered transphobic because I don't want to date trans women?


no. would a straight guy be considered homophobic if he didn't want to date other men?


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## Randy (Dec 15, 2020)

bostjan said:


> if she had been up front about who she was, I don't think people would have cared



Actually, no I don't think people would have been accepting of it because others have had the same situation happen and they got dragged. That's why a lot of my posts address "identity" more than gender or sexual preference. I think we're all less tolerant of other's identities than we should be.


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

Randy said:


> I think we're all less tolerant of other's identities than we should be.


I don't know the case of Rachel Dolezal very well (I had to google it), but are you implying that her case should have been met with more tolerance? (Not a sarcastic question, I'm actually unsure of what point you were trying to make.)

I can understand why the idea of tolerance of identity in general sounds great, and it's hard to argue with in principle, but the parallel here is that this modern concept of "identities" is being built on top of things that have existing historical / scientific / linguistic / etc precedence. "I feel like I embody a lot of the values and have adopted some of the culture of American people of African descent" means something entirely different than just walking into a room declaring "I am black".

I mean, people have arguably been taking and mixing cultural values and aesthetics for a long time, but attaching the word you use to describe yourself to something that has a lot of historic weight, while on another level denying that same history.... I dunno. Given some of the conversations in the politics threads, I know a lot of people in the US give _a lot_ of weight to the country's racial history, and she's been quoted saying things like "I don’t believe in race". Regardless of your opinion of her (I don't take her as a "bad person"), I can't imagine her comments being received very well.


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## Randy (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I can understand why the idea of tolerance of identity in general sounds great, and it's hard to argue with in principle, but the parallel here is that this modern concept of "identities" is being built on top of things that have existing historical / scientific / linguistic / etc precedence. "I feel like I embody a lot of the values and have adopted some of the culture of American people of African descent" means something entirely different than just walking into a room declaring "I am black".



What she did was wrong becaue she lied and she essentially stole a job from a person of color as a result of that lie.

But after she fessed up and apologized, she said she did it because she related to black culture more than white and that was the main consideration in how she changed her appearance and she got dragged over it saying essentially that it's cultural appropriation even if she didn't benefit from it. Same thing has happened to a number of people, though not as high profile.

All I'm saying is there were legitimate reasons to beef with what she did but saying "how dare you tan or wear your hair that way" is bullshit insensitivity to her identity. That might not be a popular opinion but it's mine, and IMO, the logical extension of accepting identity as a social construct and a choice (or based on what feels right for you) more than your genetics. 

I'm not here to defend her individually but I followed that whole thing when it happened, and it was 10% about the lie and it instantly shifted into how white people were stealing from the struggle of black people, etc. That's very similar to the kind of attacks cis women carry out on trans women as "fakers" because they don't have a period or bear children, etc.

I'm speaking as a person of color, BTW.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 15, 2020)

I'd also posit that it's a 'fear' but not for the reasons that have been posted so far.
Maybe it's just me personally, but the fear I have of that situation (and lets be clear- this isn't like an active "OH NO this is definitely going to happen to me at some point!" fear, it's most certainly a 'what if') is that it's just going to be uncomfortable, and your potential to hurt this person just got a bit amplified and that's not something I want to do.

For instance, assuming the person in question can pass convincingly, and we hit it off. Say I have _*no *_clue. When do they spill the beans? I wouldn't expect them to open with that immediately, because I'd imagine that's awkward and uncomfortable having to consistently do. Do they wait until things are getting hot and heavy? Then shit, that's going to be _*really*_ uncomfortable, because if I'm not down, I can't help but feel like that would really sting at that point. What if things move slow, and the revelation comes before fun stuff is going on, but after there's already been an invested connection, and I am no longer comfortable advancing that relationship? Man, that really sucks for everybody. It almost feels like there just isn't a good time, and having to finesse that to where it feels like a natural time to bring that up must be really difficult.

Obviously, I assume in almost every instance, this would be the case:


DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Honestly a trans girl is more likely to tell you before things got too far, and she's expecting you to cut the situation off after that. She's giving you the option of bowing out as to not waste her time and yours. It's not likely a trans girl is gonna blow you up to the world about you being a transphobe unless you handle it wrong.



Especially since the ball is in their court and I doubt they want to make things more difficult, but you never know.

I really don't envy trans folks having to navigate the dating world. Maybe it's just because I'm too much of a stiff in general, but even for just a vanilla straight dude, that shit is complicated enough without having to worry about having to have that conversation. It must be taxing.

Or not- hey, I don't know shit. Maybe it's not as stressful as I assume. Maybe that's a good question- does that add to the stress of dating? Or have you found that it doesn't tend to be a big deal?


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

Ah - now I get what you were saying - that's not at all how I had read your first comment. (Edit: At Randy, since a post showed up in between)



Randy said:


> All I'm saying is there were legitimate reasons to beef with what she did but saying "how dare you tan or wear your hair that way" is bullshit insensitivity


Very fair. I can agree with that.



Randy said:


> That's very similar to the kind of attacks cis women carry out on trans women as "fakers" because they don't have a period or bear children, etc.


I hesitate to say this, 'cause we're getting awfully close to very-unpopular-opinions territory, but I feel like the race parallel breaks down here - because in the case of race, we're saying "it's ok to do as you please, just don't tell us there's zero distinction between yourself and the group that you took the word for your identity from", but when it comes to gender we're saying "lets disregard that there is a distinction at all". Because depending on the conversation, acknowledging the distinction puts you square into transphobic territory.

In one case, the bigotry is claiming the distinction, and in the other case the bigotry is denying the distinction.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> In one case, the bigotry is claiming the distinction, and in the other case the bigotry is denying the distinction.



I think tone means a lot in this context.
I don't think simply acknowledging the distinction would land you in hot water necessarily- from what I've seen, trans women will accept that there's a difference between trans women and biological women on that front. But the difference is whether or not you're still willing to group both under the umbrella of 'women'.

It's the malicious intent of said cis women that make that such a hot take, because they're using that point to try and wrestle these people's identity away from them. Not the distinction itself.


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## c7spheres (Dec 15, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> no. would a straight guy be considered homophobic if he didn't want to date other men?



- I'm thinking eventually this will be the case. 

- I was thinking since a trans woman is ideally supposed to be regarded as any non trans woman that it would fall under the category of "I'm not into that girl." etc. , but I'm not into any trans girls. Probably because I'm straight, but then again aren't trans women also straight if they only like guys? Wouldn't they just be a straight woman at that point?

- I'm thinking Eventually that if any person claims to NOT be into anyone, for any reason, they will be considered a homophobe, racist, insensitive, etc.. because if you're not into ________ group/person then you have a problem with them and that group, are not open minded, are afraid of them, filled with hate etc., and therfore are a bigot. Essentially this is where it's all leading.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> Or not- hey, I don't know shit. Maybe it's not as stressful as I assume. Maybe that's a good question- does that add to the stress of dating? Or have you found that it doesn't tend to be a big deal?



So in the past couple of years the number of murders involving trans women has been highlighted and that's just the ones you hear about. It happens WAY too often.

Imagine having to tell someone something that literally can get you murdered or beat up. That's a legit risk of dating for trans people.

Even if you're with someone who's into it, if they're undercover about it they may kill you to keep it a secret. That also happens way too often.


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## bostjan (Dec 15, 2020)

Randy said:


> Actually, no I don't think people would have been accepting of it because others have had the same situation happen and they got dragged. That's why a lot of my posts address "identity" more than gender or sexual preference. I think we're all less tolerant of other's identities than we should be.



Maybe you're correct, but IIRC, the vast majority of the outrage was because she used her identity to get a job as a professor and some executive post at the NAACP.

Like, identity should be simple, right? Be whoever you want to be. They tell you that in kindergarten. Dream it, do it. But then other people get involved and the government gets involved and there are organizations, etc., and suddenly it's super complicated as an adult.

Story time. This story makes me look like a monster, but maybe I am. I posit that I was 5 at the time and super naive:

In kindergarten, the teacher was going around the room asking everybody what they wanted to be when they grew up. This was in the 1980's. I said I wanted to be the first black president of the USA. I am white. I had to move my desk to the corner facing away from the teacher for 30 days as punishment.

You can't do stuff like that!

Question, though... what if I had said I wanted to be the first woman President? Obviously back then, punishment would have been the same. Now, though, I don't know that it'd necessarily be different. People get very defensive about their identities. Identities often afford people some relief from certain hardships. Pretending to be black to snag a job as a professor of African-American studies is bad. I think maybe Rachel Dolezal wasn't _intending_ that to happen. I think it's likely that she changed her identity, at some point, from white to black, and didn't just do it for a job. Regardless, she did the thing, and no matter of her motivation, she was awarded a prestigious job as a result of her identity change. Once she was outed, she immediately lost her job, but, if I heard correctly, she never again identified as white. So it's one of those morally grey situations. So, from one certain perspective she just wanted to earnestly take on this identity and she went all in. From another certain perspective, she bypassed two or more decades of dealing with discrimination and other issues, then took a job (requiring expertise in those issues she bypassed) away from someone who had.

I would expect that, if a trans woman, regardless of her intent, became a professor of women's studies, and the people who hired her had assumed that she was a cis gender woman, and then she was somehow outed, that there would be similar uproar, regardless of whether it was right or wrong. Do you disagree?



c7spheres said:


> - I'm thinking eventually this will be the case.
> 
> - I was thinking since a trans woman is ideally supposed to be regarded as any non trans woman that it would fall under the category of "I'm not into that girl." etc. , but I'm not into any trans girls. Probably because I'm straight, but then again aren't trans women also straight if they only like guys? Wouldn't they just be a straight woman at that point?
> 
> - I'm thinking Eventually that if any person claims to NOT be into anyone, for any reason, they will be considered a homophobe, racist, insensitive, etc.. because if you're not into ________ group/person then you have a problem with them and that group, are not open minded, are afraid of them, filled with hate etc., and therfore are a bigot. Essentially this is where it's all leading.



People aren't monolithic. Even if most trans women are on the same wavelength as you over this issue, if there is one who is not, and, by chance, the two of you ever discuss this, it'd likely stir up a lot of resentment.

But that's universal. Maybe I don't like IPA beer. Someone, somewhere out there, is fanatic about IPA beer. As I interact with that person on a forum, we clash. It's dumb, because people are who they are and like what they like.

Now, this IPA beer fanatic is not, themself, an IPA beer. Imagine if the person in the situation *is* the "thing" for which you said you didn't have preference. Now it's personal.

But when it comes to romantic pairings, things always feel personal and there's no way not to hurt feelings. Whether someone isn't into fat/short/blonde/hairy/trans/whatever, the best thing to do is to have as much grace as possible.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> - I'm thinking eventually this will be the case.
> 
> - I was thinking since a trans woman is ideally supposed to be regarded as any non trans woman that it would fall under the category of "I'm not into that girl." etc. , but I'm not into any trans girls. Probably because I'm straight, but then again aren't trans women also straight if they only like guys? Wouldn't they just be a straight woman at that point?
> 
> - I'm thinking Eventually that if any person claims to NOT be into anyone, for any reason, they will be considered a homophobe, racist, insensitive, etc.. because if you're not into ________ group/person then you have a problem with them and that group, are not open minded, are afraid of them, filled with hate etc., and therfore are a bigot. Essentially this is where it's all leading.



So I may have a controversial take on this but I see it this way.

There's no PC when it comes to sexual and romantic attraction. We all have some form is "ism" when it comes to what we're into.

Is it racist to not want to date a black person, white person, etc? Technically yes. That's literally racism, however, for some reasons it's understood and if you just aren't into it you aren't into it. An example being, latino people not wanting to date outside their race because their culture and someone who shares that is important to them. I stopped dating/fucking white guys due to the racist nonsense and I prefer black guys. Is that racist to cut out white guys for being white? Yeah..but again it's a cultural thing.


Is it transphobic to not date a trans girl? Technically yes. You're literally refusing romantic involvement with her because she's trans. Having said that there can be many reasons. Perhaps a guy isn't up for being the support a trans girl needs and that's too much for him. Perhaps he really digs pussy and her not having one is a deal breaker. Or maybe she's post-op but he can't get over it or he's always wanted to have kids.

Should a person force themselves to date someone they aren't into? No. You can't "We are the world" your way into relationships. Your love and sex doesn't have to be equal opportunity.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm in the minority when it comes to the Rachael Dolezal thing. She's done a lot more for black people than some actual black folks have done. I think she truly identifies as black. Is she crazy? Yeah probably but I have no hate towards her. I understand she represents a slippery slope when it comes to racism and the black identity but I don't really think her situation is gonna catch on with white people.


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## Randy (Dec 15, 2020)

bostjan said:


> Maybe you're correct, but IIRC, the vast majority of the outrage was because she used her identity to get a job as a professor and some executive post at the NAACP.
> 
> Like, identity should be simple, right? Be whoever you want to be. They tell you that in kindergarten. Dream it, do it. But then other people get involved and the government gets involved and there are organizations, etc., and suddenly it's super complicated as an adult.
> 
> ...



I address this in my follow-up post. The cliff notes is that basically you and I are in agreement.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm in the minority when it comes to the Rachael Dolezal thing. She's done a lot more for black people than some actual black folks have done. I think she truly identifies as black. Is she crazy? Yeah probably but I have no hate towards her. I understand she represents a slippery slope when it comes to racism and the black identity but I don't really think her situation is gonna catch on with white people.



She's also way cuter that way 

Also, I don't think you or I are in the minority. The people complaining are white people and "woke" black folks working on their sociology or African studies doctorate. Most actual black people I've spoken to about it laughed their ass off. The only job app where being black works in your favor!


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 15, 2020)

I'm just sitting here trying to understand how people aren't attracted to people regardless of gender and have a genital preference that would prevent them from dating someone. 

Some of you guys are crazy


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> There's no PC when it comes to sexual and romantic attraction. We all have some form is "ism" when it comes to what we're into.


I agree with your premise, but I tend to phrase it differently: Dating, by nature, is discriminatory. 



SexHaver420 said:


> I'm just sitting here trying to understand how people aren't attracted to people regardless of gender and have a genital preference that would prevent them from dating someone.


I think that for the average person, when someone says "attraction", they're talking (at least in part) about sexual attraction, not just wanting to be around people. I'm arguably "attracted" to "anyone" in terms of wanting social connections, learning opportunities, general conversation, etc., I find critical thinking to be an attractive trait in anyone, in the sense that I want to be around those people, but that doesn't mean I want to form a romantic partnership on that basis. Those aren't the things that drive a romantic relationship, IMO, given that (generally speaking) you can have those things without romance.

I wont say that every romantic relationship is "about" sex (or at least some level of physical intimacy), but I think for the majority of people it's a very significant element. I mean, if you took a person you're in a relationship with and subtract all physical intimacy from the situation, what do you have? Basically just a good friend. To which you might say "can't friends love eachother?" And I'd say, yes, absolutely they can - and you can play all kinds of semantic games to say that a friendship is just _another type_ of relationship - and go down the philosophical rabbit holes of "what is friendship?", "what is love?", "why do we distinguish between the ways we relate to other people?"


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

TedEH said:


> "what is love?"


Baby don't hurt me.


.......I'm sorry.....I'll see myself out


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

I was hoping someone would run with that one, and was not disappointed.


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## c7spheres (Dec 15, 2020)

bostjan said:


> People aren't monolithic. Even if most trans women are on the same wavelength as you over this issue, if there is one who is not, and, by chance, the two of you ever discuss this, it'd likely stir up a lot of resentment.
> 
> But that's universal. Maybe I don't like IPA beer. Someone, somewhere out there, is fanatic about IPA beer. As I interact with that person on a forum, we clash. It's dumb, because people are who they are and like what they like.
> 
> ...



Why resentment though? It's not clicking in my head for some reason. 



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> So I may have a controversial take on this but I see it this way.
> 
> There's no PC when it comes to sexual and romantic attraction. We all have some form is "ism" when it comes to what we're into.
> 
> ...



- When I first saw that Victoria's Secret trans model, I thought to myself "I'd totally fuck that" then they said she was a trans model and I was like "fuuuck that, damn".
- That is some brutal honesty that will may get me some flak, but I'm being an honest person. I don't hate trans people but I don't want to have sex with them either, no matter how attractive, and I'm not sure why. If there was any trans girl I would consider sleeping with I'd assume it would be that one because she looks like a fine female model to me. Not that she'd be willing or anything anyways : )
- I thought I was just a bit shallow and still have that only attracted to physical beauty thing going on, but it's not that apparently. I thought she was attractive and still do, but only when I found out she was trans was I no longer interested. - Same thing happened once when I was looking at a porn site and there was some trans women from Thailand, I think. Then they took off their panties and I was like "wtf!?" With all these medical procedures I can't always tell. Something's going on that causes a short circuit in my reptilian brain I guess. 

- If this same model went on a one nighter date with me and then told me after sex she was a trans I'd probably consider doing bad things and then be like "oh! you got me good there on that one you fn bitch!" but not because I hate her or anything, because I'd be all fucked in the head afterwards, like I just got date raped or something. I may not be right about it but that's what would be in my head. It would be the deception part of it and taking away my choice to make and informed decision on who Im dealing with. Logically it shouldn't matter, but it does. 
- I think telling people your sexual orientation/ gender is essential before intercouse, imo. None of this "well you didn't ask, so" or "what you don't know can't hurt ya" stuff. Or "I'm a woman now". Logic tells me I should be more open to it but I'm not for some reason. I'm sure the sex is great and whatnot, but I'd like to know what it really is that's flipping the switches in my head to think or react this way. I don't have any hate or anything towards trans people so, logically, what's the problem? Am I just thinking with me reptilian brain/dick?
- I guess I'd be the same as if the roles were reversed. I don't think most trans (or any other) person would be happy with being basically decieved this way. Like if one of those chasers you're talking about lied about who/what they were in order to get a trans person in bed and was like "surprise!". Not cool, imo. 

- It's all a learning experience. Good thread for it. I will learn a lot I'm sure. 

- I've been reading up on the GLAAD website I just discovered. How is GLAAD regarded in the LGBTQ community?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

Imma just say...if you somehow have sex with a pre-op trans woman without realizing it...that's your own damn fault. Blame no one but yourself. That's not directed at anyone. Just in general. 

You're either extremely stupid, or you knew and just didn't care.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Imma just say...if you somehow have sex with a pre-op trans woman without realizing it...that's your own damn fault. Blame no one but yourself. That's not directed at anyone. Just in general.
> 
> You're either extremely stupid, or you knew and just didn't care.



I mean, I could see if you got oral from one...but as far as full blown sex, even if you were drunk as shit, you wouldn't be like









DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Baby don't hurt me.
> 
> 
> .......I'm sorry.....I'll see myself out



I don't know why you're not there...


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## TedEH (Dec 15, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> "surprise!"


I was hoping to avoid the implication that anyone _actually_ expects an intent to deceive or surprise anyone. In hindsight, I'll strait up apologize for pushing the thread in that direction.

I don't know if this is a dumb comment, but up until this thread I've avoided the subject entirely - it was something I didn't want to go anywhere near, for a number of reasons, but I feel like these conversations are sort of inevitable (maybe not on a guitar forum, but in general). I know my opinions are not the most popular, and it's a very personal subject for some people, so I'm mostly riding on the hope that I've built up enough good-will with the regulars here that the things I say won't be taken as malicious. I'm hoping people are willing to allow for the idea that a disagreement doesn't mean trying to tell anyone what to do or think, or to take anything away from anyone, or suggest that anyone is "less of a person" or something like that.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 15, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> I mean, I could see if you got oral from one.


I still would find some things out. It's 2020. You shouldn't just assume everyone is cis. If some chick you know nothing about is trying to blow you and you don't ask some questions then you didn't want to know. You didn't grope her, finger her, attempt to give her oral...nothing? 

For these dudes to be so paranoid about being in gay situations, they sure don't ask simple questions or make sure things are what they think.


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## broj15 (Dec 15, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I still would find some things out. It's 2020. You shouldn't just assume everyone is cis. If some chick you know nothing about is trying to blow you and you don't ask some questions then you didn't want to know. You didn't grope her, finger her, attempt to give her oral...nothing?
> 
> For these dudes to be so paranoid about being in gay situations, they sure don't ask simple questions or make sure things are what they think.




I seem to specifically remember the person driving this convo (c7spheres) saying some pretty transphobic shit the first time the OP tried to have this thread. Imo they still are, but less overt than before. At this point I'd wager that they're just trying to play devil's advocate and/or trynna "covertly" justify thier own transphobia/homophobia. Shits honestly disgusting and I feel like continuing to try and entertain thier "but but but"s and "what if xyz"s is a waste of everyone's time and energy. 

I mean I'm _more or less _cishet (not my thread so I won't try and derail by talking about my own sexuality/gender identity) but even I don't think trying to educate the willfully ignorant is worth anyone's time.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I still would find some things out. It's 2020. You shouldn't just assume everyone is cis. If some chick you know nothing about is trying to blow you and you don't ask some questions then you didn't want to know. You didn't grope her, finger her, attempt to give her oral...nothing?
> 
> For these dudes to be so paranoid about being in gay situations, they sure don't ask simple questions or make sure things are what they think.



But a lot of it depends on where you live. In my AO, as far as I know I've never met a trans person, so I can kinda get people being worried about being surprised by it.

I mean given most of my experience with gay people (2 of my cousins and their gay friends), even though it's probably offensive, I get the gay and a vegan walk into the bar, who tell's you first joke, it makes sense. And that was back in the day when I was playing smear the queer in school. Nowadays, I can't imagine it wouldn't come up at some point.



broj15 said:


> I mean I'm _more or less _cishet (not my thread so I won't try and derail by talking about my own sexuality/gender identity) but even I don't think trying to educate the willfully ignorant is worth anyone's time.



I mean, I was willfully ignorant for a long time, until I started trying to understand some of the stuff going on in my hand. Even though I'm not trans, it has helped me understand some of my own stuff. Even if it not something you're interested in it, it always helps you understand something better if you can see it from someone else's shoes.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

It honestly boils down to them being stupid, shitty in bed, and sleazes.

Some chick offers to blow you and you don't give oral to return the favor, make no effort to get her off, etc? I've known some dudes who claim that they met a girl and she wanted anal because they were on their period.

You went along with that and didn't feel around? You never even attempted to touch her pussy? Did you not even attempt to look at it?

He's either lying or the worst sexual partner in history.

I have no issues fucking a trans dude and I STILL would find it extremely suspicious if a guy I was with seemed adamant that I not see and touch his dick. I've known some bottoms who don't like their dicks touched but I've still seen them. There's no way in hell I'm having sex with someone who rushes to turn the lights off, keeps clothes on, tries hiding parts of them, etc. My first assumption is they have an STD or something they don't want me to see..but the next hunch would be that they're trying to keep me from finding out they're trans.

For guys so worried that "men are trying to trick them" they sure just go along with suspicious activity.

Trans people have existed openly for a long time now. There's no excuse. Hell, talk shows used to thrive on "Guess which one is the man". I don't care where you are from. If you are with a chick who seems hellbent on keeping parts of her anatomy from you, a red flag should go off.

Either they're stupid as fuck, or they're the "doesn't matter, had sex" types who will lie after the fact to try to save face.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 16, 2020)

My whole opinion on the "I'm attracted to 100% passable transgender women until I find out that they're trans" is that straight men are scared and intimidated by a penis that isn't their own.

Also a cisgender mans penis and a transgender womans penis are completely different in function and feel and in the sensations they experience once the woman has been on HRT for a while.

Edit: c7spheres didn't post anything transphobic on my first thread just so whoever posted that he might have knows.


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## c7spheres (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Imma just say...if you somehow have sex with a pre-op trans woman without realizing it...that's your own damn fault. Blame no one but yourself. That's not directed at anyone. Just in general.
> 
> You're either extremely stupid, or you knew and just didn't care.



- Pre-op? Well obviously if they got junk down there then you'd know once you saw/felt it. 




TedEH said:


> I was hoping to avoid the implication that anyone _actually_ expects an intent to deceive or surprise anyone. In hindsight, I'll strait up apologize for pushing the thread in that direction.
> .....



Sorry if it seemed like I was implying you were implicating, or that it's something to be expected. I wasn't.


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## Randy (Dec 16, 2020)

c7spheres said:


> Why resentment though? It's not clicking in my head for some reason.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I still think the mistake here is elevating the notion that a trans woman as an unwelcome surprise is an entirely different, unfathomable thing, as if finding out a cis female has an STD or is married or screwed one of your close friends or family members isn't also some kind of deal breaker or something.

To me, that's the difference between being ignorant or not, *****-phobic or not. If you elevate an interaction with a person into totally alien territory when it otherwise has an analog for things you more often experience in your life, yeah, there's some kind of issue there. And I speak that from experience.

Being tolerant doesn't mean you need to screw anything that crosses your path, but it also means you can't treat whole groups of people as some aberration.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It honestly boils down to them being stupid, shitty in bed, and _*sleazes*_.
> 
> Some chick offers to blow you and you don't give oral to return the favor, make no effort to get her off, etc? I've known some dudes who claim that they met a girl and she wanted anal because they were on their period.



It's just that. 

I'm off the market, but even if I wan't...some rando that I just met that will blow me right after I met them, no I'm not putting my face down there and I'd probably double wrap it, JIC Either have standards, or be open for surprises.



SexHaver420 said:


> My whole opinion on the "I'm attracted to 100% passable transgender women until I find out that they're trans" is that straight men are scared and intimidated by a penis that_* isn't their own*_.
> 
> Also a _*cisgender mans penis and a transgender womans penis are completely different in function and fee*_l and in the sensations they experience once the woman has been on HRT for a while.
> 
> Edit: c7spheres didn't post anything transphobic on my first thread just so whoever posted that he might have knows.



I mean I don't really understand mine...

And I don't know about that, but a strap on feels weird as shit at first, I can see how it wouldn't be everybody's cup of tea.


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## c7spheres (Dec 16, 2020)

Randy said:


> I still think the mistake here is elevating the notion that a trans woman as an unwelcome surprise is an entirely different, unfathomable thing, as if finding out a cis female has an STD or is married or screwed one of your close friends or family members isn't also some kind of deal breaker or something.
> 
> To me, that's the difference between being ignorant or not, *****-phobic or not. If you elevate an interaction with a person into totally alien territory when it otherwise has an analog for things you more often experience in your life, yeah, there's some kind of issue there. And I speak that from experience.
> 
> Being tolerant doesn't mean you need to screw anything that crosses your path, but it also means you can't treat whole groups of people as some aberration.



- I agree. It's a similar thing. They're all unwelcome things that revolve around a lack of openness and honesty. 
- Being tolerant in the past meant I unknowingly screwed the girl that screwed anything in her path.  A story that's reapeated to many times.

- I do think that trans people are a very uncommon group though. Doesn't trans pretty much fit the definition of abberration though? I had to look it up to make sure: Abberration; a departure from what is normal, usual, or expected, typically one that is unwelcome. This seems to be the way they're treated and viewed generally, although it's wrong for people to do so. Sometimes I could be considered an abberration. I identify as an abberration.


----------



## possumkiller (Dec 16, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> My whole opinion on the "I'm attracted to 100% passable transgender women until I find out that they're trans" is that straight men are scared and intimidated by a penis that isn't their own.
> 
> Also a cisgender mans penis and a transgender womans penis are completely different in function and feel and in the sensations they experience once the woman has been on HRT for a while.
> 
> Edit: c7spheres didn't post anything transphobic on my first thread just so whoever posted that he might have knows.


Where do you see yourself in five years?


----------



## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> There's no way in hell I'm having sex with someone who rushes to turn the lights off, keeps clothes on, tries hiding parts of them, etc.


I feel like you have a very particular and not-representative-of-the-majority experience/view of how sex works. People, in my experience, are generally awkward and defensive and easily embarrassed, even outside of the context of anything in this conversation. I mean, have you never heard of someone just not feeling good about their weight or something else about their looks, so they try to keep as much clothing on as they can? Have you never encountered people who get anxious about whether or not their "fun gear" meets certain standards? Have you never met someone who insisted that every small extra step in an intimate relationship be taken one at a time and as slowly as possible?

Jumping right to "you're either great at all this and do everything right, or you're sleazy and lying" is super unhelpful to anyone, IMO.


----------



## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's 2020. You shouldn't just assume everyone is cis. If some chick you know nothing about is trying to blow you and you don't ask some questions then you didn't want to know. You didn't grope her, finger her, attempt to give her oral...nothing?


How exactly do you propose people go about this, given that (from how I understand), people _actively don't want to be asked those questions_? I mean, we're literally in a thread called "ask me anything", in which I asked some questions, and everyone got real defensive real quick. Cis people don't want to have to justify their cis-ness (is that a word?), and will probably take the question in a "do you not actually think I'm x?", and a trans person is equally likely to go "hey, don't question me, I am whatever I present myself as and you have no right to question that".

It's the topic that you literally can't ask questions about unless someone prompts you to. How is anyone supposed to navigate that?


----------



## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> My whole opinion on the "I'm attracted to 100% passable transgender women until I find out that they're trans" is that straight men are scared and intimidated by a penis that isn't their own.


I think it's more that an unexpected penis is still an unexpected penis, regardless of who it's attached to. If what I hear from the women around me is anything to go by, almost literally nobody likes a surprise penis.

I hate making this analogy but it's the same thing with raisins vs chocolate chips in a cookie. Even if you like raisins, and even if not noticing the difference is your own fault for not paying close enough attention, in the very rare case you bite into what you think is chocolate and get raisins instead, I can't imagine being very happy about it.


----------



## USMarine75 (Dec 16, 2020)

I’m still trying to figure out what is wrong with fetishism?

Why can’t I be into chicks with dicks? Or girls that are into pegging? Or Black women? Or women/men/whatever with dark hair? If that’s what gets me off then that’s my right.

To use a previous example... If i see a 300 lbs 6’7 “woman” across the room and that’s my thing, then that’s my thing. If you’re offended because I “chase” that then it’s your issue not mine.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> How exactly do you propose people go about this, given that (from how I understand), people _actively don't want to be asked those questions_? I mean, we're literally in a thread called "ask me anything", in which I asked some questions, and everyone got real defensive real quick. Cis people don't want to have to justify their cis-ness (is that a word?), and will probably take the question in a "do you not actually think I'm x?", and a trans person is equally likely to go "hey, don't question me, I am whatever I present myself as and you have no right to question that".
> 
> It's the topic that you literally can't ask questions about unless someone prompts you to. How is anyone supposed to navigate that?



If you're gonna have sex with someone, questions need to be asked. If they are offended, too bad. You need to know what you're dealing with. You ask about kinks, STDs, and if they are who you think they are. You don't go in blindly to be nice. That's not the time to be nice, that's the time to be honest so both of your can make decisions and protect yourselves.

Sex requires both parties being open and honest. I don't believe any of us are 15 year old awkward virgins. We're old enough to understand that sex isn't about just trying to bust a nut as fast as possible by any means necessary

To me it's just like when guys end up "accidentally" having sex with underage girls. You meet a random chick or if you're a rockstar meeting a girl you'd damn sure better ask for ID. Hell I'd even get it in writing if I had to. Sound crazy? Maybe but I'll be crazy before being a registered sex offender.

Tip to people: ASK QUESTIONS. PROTECT YOURSELVES.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> I’m still trying to figure out what is wrong with fetishism?
> 
> Why can’t I be into chicks with dicks? Or girls that are into pegging? Or Black women? Or women/men/whatever with dark hair? If that’s what gets me off then that’s my right.
> 
> To use a previous example... If i see a 300 lbs 6’7 “woman” across the room and that’s my thing, then that’s my thing. If you’re offended because I “chase” that then it’s your issue not mine.



This has been explained. Too many trans women end up dead for chasers to get a free pass. They perpetuate harmful stereotypes, contribute to the abuse, murder, and oppression of trans people and they often are more harmful.

As a black person, why would I want to be fetishized by a white person who doesn't view me as a normal human being? Do you think I should appreciate being called slurs, treated like a stereotype, and used by someone who doesn't see me as a person worthy of dignity and respect?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Dec 16, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> I’m still trying to figure out what is wrong with fetishism?
> 
> Why can’t I be into chicks with dicks? Or girls that are into pegging? Or Black women? Or women/men/whatever with dark hair? If that’s what gets me off then that’s my right.
> 
> To use a previous example... If i see a 300 lbs 6’7 “woman” across the room and that’s my thing, then that’s my thing. If you’re offended because I “chase” that then it’s your issue not mine.



Just because you're "into" something, doesn't mean it's a fetish necessarily. 

Fetish sort of implies a taboo element, which can give it something of a negative connotation. 

It imparts a lack of normalization.


----------



## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You need to know what you're dealing with. You ask about kinks, STDs, and if they are who you think they are


I mean, nothing gets me in the mood quite like having someone question whether or not I'm actually a man, amirite. I mean, I agree with you in principle - but in practice, you're still asking people questions they don't want to be asked. I think a lot of people hope/assume that anything important will be volunteered or intuited before it's necessary to make it a question. I mean, I've never had to ask someone "were you always a woman?" at any point, and it's a question I don't think I would ever ask someone. That's something you talk about on a volunteer basis -> if you don't tell me otherwise, I assume you just are what you present yourself as - which, isn't that what people are aiming for?



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Sex requires both parties being open and honest.


I suppose it depends on what you mean by "requires", but I generally agree... again, in principle. People are not generally open and honest though, in my experience, and that certainly doesn't stop people.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I don't believe any of us are 15 year old awkward virgins.


You have no reason to believe anyone in this thread _isn't _a 15 year old awkward virgin - and even if they are, the conversation is still valid for them. I know plenty of 30+ year olds who have the mentality of an awkward 15 year old, so I don't know that a distinction is necessary.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

If the answers to those questions are important then you should ask. Idgaf if they are offended. Before I have sex with anyone they've got some questions to answer, most of which I ask even before getting to the alone part where sex is gonna happen. You don't wanna answer? Cool, but we aren't fucking. You can easily ruin your life with one sexual encounter. Nobody's comfort is worth my well-being. 

Are you married/in a relationship?
Are you STD free?
Are you a drug user?
Are you really what I think you are?
Are you of legal age?


And I'll get proof where applicable. 

I get dick pics, ass pics, whatever. If I'm having sex with someone I check those spots for rashes, discharge, etc. There's a way to be stealthy about it..but I wouldn't be in a situation where I'm expecting a cis woman and got lied to.

It's 2020. Protect yourself. If you don't, then that's on you


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I mean, nothing gets me in the mood quite like having someone question whether or not I'm actually a man, amirite. I mean, I agree with you in principle - but in practice, you're still asking people questions they don't want to be asked. I think a lot of people hope/assume that anything important will be volunteered or intuited before it's necessary to make it a question. I mean, I've never had to ask someone "were you always a woman?" at any point, and it's a question I don't think I would ever ask someone. That's something you talk about on a volunteer basis -> if you don't tell me otherwise, I assume you just are what you present yourself as - which, isn't that what people are aiming for?



I think what DT is saying isn't as strict as "you need to ask the question," so much as it is "you need to find the answer."
The point is that in that situation, if you haven't done what need to do in order to feel confident that you're getting into what you think you are, then that's kind of on you. If we're talking about checking equipment, in that context, that isn't difficult for you to do. If we're not specifically talking about checking equipment, there are other tells you could look for and pay attention to- and if you really wanted to play it safe (or had any suspicion) you _*could*_ just point-blank ask the question.

I totally agree that asking that question would be awkward as all hell and the heat of the moment would almost certainly dissipate, but better safe than sorry if you're actually concerned.

Because if you do all of that to the point where you can be reasonably sure of what's going on, if you get bamboozled, _*it's because you got bamboozled*_, and that person deliberately withheld that information from you past the point where it probably should have been shared; which I think we're all assuming is quite rare.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I think what DT is saying isn't as strict as "you need to ask the question," so much as it is "you need to find the answer."
> The point is that in that situation, if you haven't done what need to do in order to feel confident that you're getting into what you think you are, then that's kind of on you. If we're talking about checking equipment, in that context, that isn't difficult for you to do. If we're not specifically talking about checking equipment, there are other tells you could look for and pay attention to- and if you really wanted to play it safe (or had any suspicion) you _*could*_ just point-blank ask the question.
> 
> I totally agree that asking that question would be awkward as all hell and the heat of the moment would almost certainly dissipate, but better safe than sorry if you're actually concerned.
> ...



Yup. For the record? Trans girls don't have to trick men..there are PLENTY of men who would quite literally pay top dollar for the privilege.

Btw..you can ask anything you want. If you're worried about killing the mood you dress it up in a nice way. Gotta learn how to lead a conversation so that you get the info you need. I can see and hear mostly everything I need without them even know I'm checking all my boxes.


----------



## Randy (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This has been explained. Too many trans women end up dead for chasers to get a free pass. They perpetuate harmful stereotypes, contribute to the abuse, murder, and oppression of trans people and they often are more harmful.
> 
> As a black person, why would I want to be fetishized by a white person who doesn't view me as a normal human being? Do you think I should appreciate being called slurs, treated like a stereotype, and used by someone who doesn't see me as a person worthy of dignity and respect?



I gotta agree with the person earlier who said its a "thing" guys do regardless of what their preference is. Tons of stories of straight men stalking, assaulting and killing cis women as well. Guys have a fucked up level of entitlement when it comes to their sexual conquests, that's not just confined to their pursuit of trans etc.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

Randy said:


> I gotta agree with the person earlier who said its a "thing" guys do regardless of what their preference is. Tons of stories of straight men stalking, assaulting and killing cis women as well. Guys have a fucked up level of entitlement when it comes to their sexual conquests, that's not just confined to their pursuit of trans etc.


Definitely. I give the same advice to women. Misogyny and transmisogyny are a huge problem. It's why guys with weird racial/gender/identity fetishes need to be dealt with accordingly. It often leads to deaths and problems


----------



## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Are you married/in a relationship?
> Are you STD free?
> Are you a drug user?
> Are you really what I think you are?
> Are you of legal age?



I don't disagree, so much as, on a personal level, I can't imagine being in a position of considering sleeping with someone if I didn't already have a vague idea of who they were already. I'm not a "go to bars and hook up with strangers" kind of a person, so the idea of getting that far and not even having so much as a guess as to whether or not someone is of legal age or something like that - it's a foreign concept to me.

I mean, I've had conversations with previous partners about things like these before - but they were not "ok, so we have decided to have sex - here's the checklist of things I need to know first" - they were just things that either spoke for themselves or came up in conversation naturally before there was a "need".

With one exception -> I had someone tell me once that they literally _had_ a checklist for potential partners, and it turned out I did not check every box on the list for them.  Points to them for being very open and forward.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I don't disagree, so much as, on a personal level, I can't imagine being in a position of considering sleeping with someone if I didn't already have a vague idea of who they were already. I'm not a "go to bars and hook up with strangers" kind of a person, so the idea of getting that far and not even having so much as a guess as to whether or not someone is of legal age or something like that - it's a foreign concept to me.
> 
> I mean, I've had conversations with previous partners about things like these before - but they were not "ok, so we have decided to have sex - here's the checklist of things I need to know first" - they were just things that either spoke for themselves or came up in conversation naturally before there was a "need".
> 
> With one exception -> I had someone tell me once that they literally _had_ a checklist for potential partners, and it turned out I did not check every box on the list for them.  Points to them for being very open and forward.



I'm totally aware, btw, that not everyone does this and that it may seem odd. But I don't fuck around. There are things I have to know so I don't end up dead, in an STD clinic, or on the sex offender registry. Won't catch me slippin'.


----------



## BlackMastodon (Dec 16, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> I’m still trying to figure out what is wrong with fetishism?
> 
> Why can’t I be into chicks with dicks? Or girls that are into pegging? Or Black women? Or women/men/whatever with dark hair? If that’s what gets me off then that’s my right.
> 
> To use a previous example... If i see a 300 lbs 6’7 “woman” across the room and that’s my thing, then that’s my thing. If you’re offended because I “chase” that then it’s your issue not mine.


I think the difference of the chaser and the person who is just into those people is a pretty big one. Like Drakkar said, chasers have a connotation that it's a conquest, often in secret, and that they do some deplorable, and sometimes horrendous, things to cover their ass so others don't know that they do it.
If you're into black, white, trans women, or very large black guys, then that's just "pool" of people you're attracted to, but there's the expectation that you'd be open and honest about it (not that you have to shout from the rooftops the list of people you're sexually attracted to).


----------



## USMarine75 (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This has been explained. Too many trans women end up dead for chasers to get a free pass. They perpetuate harmful stereotypes, contribute to the abuse, murder, and oppression of trans people and they often are more harmful.
> 
> As a black person, why would I want to be fetishized by a white person who doesn't view me as a normal human being? Do you think I should appreciate being called slurs, treated like a stereotype, and used by someone who doesn't see me as a person worthy of dignity and respect?



You’re massively conflating scenarios and engaging in massive slippery slopisms. “He like black women so he’s going to treat them like slaves and murder them.” Just no.


----------



## USMarine75 (Dec 16, 2020)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Just because you're "into" something, doesn't mean it's a fetish necessarily.
> 
> Fetish sort of implies a taboo element, which can give it something of a negative connotation.
> 
> It imparts a lack of normalization.



Totally agree. 

But we have people saying if they see someone that’s fat and someone is into that then F them for being into that. In trying to be so open they’re awfully closed minded. They’re saying they have the right to be who they are and express theme selves however they want. But other people don’t have that same right. What if what turns me on is only preop trans people and not post op. I’m supposed to feel bad because that’s what I like?

People like what they like.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> You’re massively conflating scenarios and engaging in massive slippery slopisms. “He like black women so he’s going to treat them like slaves and murder them.” Just no.


You have missed the point entirely. We aren't talking about people with just a preference. We are talking about people who fetishize people into harmful stereotypes..to which t-girl chasers are. We aren't talking about guys who are into women and don't mind trans girls, or even men who honestly love trans girls.


----------



## USMarine75 (Dec 16, 2020)

BlackMastodon said:


> I think the difference of the chaser and the person who is just into those people is a pretty big one. Like Drakkar said, chasers have a connotation that it's a conquest, often in secret, and that they do some deplorable, and sometimes horrendous, things to cover their ass so others don't know that they do it.
> If you're into black, white, trans women, or very large black guys, then that's just "pool" of people you're attracted to, but there's the expectation that you'd be open and honest about it (not that you have to shout from the rooftops the list of people you're sexually attracted to).



Agree. I think that term prob has too much negative connotation to throw around. 

What I’m referring to is having a thing for blond girls, not wanting to collect blond girls in my Ohio basement.


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## USMarine75 (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> You have missed the point entirely. We aren't talking about people with just a preference. We are talking about people who fetishize people into harmful stereotypes..to which t-girl chasers are. We aren't talking about guys who are into women and don't mind trans girls, or even men who honestly love trans girls.



I’m not missing the point. I get what I’m saying entirely. 

Correct me if I’m wrong but wasn’t there discussion about so called “chasers” because they dared to hit on you? That doesn’t make them a chaser. Also having men (or women) hit on someone precisely because they’re in drag. And then assuming they’re “a chaser”?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Agree. I think that term prob has too much negative connotation to throw around.
> 
> What I’m referring to is having a thing for blond girls, not wanting to collect blond girls in my Ohio basement.



Chasers are specific in the fetish community.

Someone with a preference is different than a chaser. A chaser wants the fantasy of a specific person and is attracted to them because of that specific thing.

You could like blonds and date one, and not mind if she dyes her hair. To attribute a bunch of porny elements to blond girls, only seek them out, obsess over their hair, try to impose your expectations of blond women onto them, sexually harass them about it, be willing to leave them if they change their hair color, etc...that would be chaser.

Trans chasers aren't guys who are into women and see trans women as just another woman.

They are after "chicks with dicks" regardless of if it's a trans person, drag queen, or crossdresser. They don't make a distinction. They prey on those girls with the fantasies and stereotypes they get from porn movies. They sexually harass those girls because to them trans people exist for their fantasy. They don't care about the rights and lives of trans people, and often fetishize them to the point of wanting to harm or kill them to keep their fetish undercover.

That's not someone with a preference..that's somebody with a dangerous fantasy that they are using a person to fulfill.

They don't view trans women as women..they specifically want a "shemale".


----------



## USMarine75 (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Chasers are specific in the fetish community.
> 
> Someone with a preference is different than a chaser. A chaser wants the fantasy of a specific person and is attracted to them because of that specific thing.
> 
> ...



Totally agree. Psychopathy of that type is inherently evil no matter whether it’s malicious towards trans, children, or “normative” (aka average) people. 

It’s unfortunate that in 2020 some people still value other humans as lesser.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

USMarine75 said:


> Totally agree. Psychopathy of that type is inherently evil no matter whether it’s malicious towards trans, children, or “normative” (aka average) people.
> 
> It’s unfortunate that in 2020 some people still value other humans as lesser.


Yeah. That's why I'm strict on guys like that. It fuels their weirdness and creates a problem for people down the road. Below is a pic of me in drag and a pic of me without heels for size reference (the guy in front of me isn't a small guy). Imagine that but 7 inches taller.. There's no way you think that's a real woman. They know damn well I'm not but, being chasers, they just want me because to them I'm a "tranny".

These same guys would never talk to me out of drag. They don't want me as a person, they want a "shemale". I even went into more genderfuck and monster drag to make an even bigger distinction and guys STILL hit on me. It doesn't matter to them. The fact that I have a dick and I'm wearing makeup is all they care about


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## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

I think there's a lot of generalization and conflation going on.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Chasers are specific in the fetish community.


This conversation is not the fetish community though. I assume most of us here are not part of that group, so it's not safe to assume that we use the same terminology or look at people the same way or have comparable experiences or are speaking about the fetish community when addressing the thread in general.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> A chaser wants the fantasy of a specific person and is attracted to them because of that specific thing.





DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They are after "chicks with dicks" regardless of if it's a trans person, drag queen, or crossdresser.





DrakkarTyrannis said:


> They don't view trans women as women..they specifically want a "shemale".


You've described "chasers" as being people with a specific fantasy, and then added this attachment to it after-the-fact that it means they must also dehumanize people.
I don't doubt that the group you're describing exists - but you're speaking about it in a way that implies that having certain specific fantasies leads necessarily to an abuse or disrespect of some kind.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> but you're speaking about it in a way that implies that having certain specific fantasies leads necessarily to an abuse or disrespect of some kind.



No...I'm not. I'm saying having fetishes about a certain type of people, based on harmful stereotypes leads to abuse and disrespect. Because it does.

A foot fetish is harmless, hell even a piss fetish is harmless.

To believe stereotypes about an already oppressed group of people, and try to enforce those stereotypes on them is abusive.


----------



## Randy (Dec 16, 2020)

I know it's a lot to ask of someone, so I will humbly offer myself up to anyone that has a financial domination fetish and wants me to be their dom. I know, I know... it's tough work but someone has to do it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

Randy said:


> I know it's a lot to ask of someone, so I will humbly offer myself up to anyone that has a financial domination fetish and wants me to be their dom. I know, I know... it's tough work but someone has to do it.


You know that is a thing. Hit up a fetish site and look for someone. It'll more than likely be a guy, but if you don't mind that you're on your way.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 16, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Where do you see yourself in five years?



I don't really know to be honest. All I really want is to be passable 100% of the time (which will probably never happen because my shoulders are too wide and I have no curves and I'm tall for a woman). I hope to have my FFS (facial feminization surgery) done by then too. I'd also like to have a job that pays alright and is consistent so I can use my free time to play in a band or two.


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## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I'm saying having fetishes about a certain type of people, based on harmful stereotypes leads to abuse and disrespect. Because it does.


I guess the part I don't follow is, what about being attracted to [people with penises] is an offensive stereotype?


----------



## c7spheres (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Yeah. That's why I'm strict on guys like that. It fuels their weirdness and creates a problem for people down the road. Below is a pic of me in drag and a pic of me without heels for size reference (the guy in front of me isn't a small guy). Imagine that but 7 inches taller.. There's no way you think that's a real woman. They know damn well I'm not but, being chasers, they just want me because to them I'm a "tranny".
> 
> These same guys would never talk to me out of drag. They don't want me as a person, they want a "shemale". I even went into more genderfuck and monster drag to make an even bigger distinction and guys STILL hit on me. It doesn't matter to them. The fact that I have a dick and I'm wearing makeup is all they care about
> 
> ...


.

- Like I've said before. I wouldn't want to run into you in a dark alley : )
- Seriously, people yell stuff at you and start shit with you? They must be stupid. You look like you could kick some ass no matter how you're dressed. You're a big guy. I'm guessing I'd come up to your elbow


----------



## eggy in a bready (Dec 16, 2020)

Randy said:


> I know it's a lot to ask of someone, so I will humbly offer myself up to anyone that has a financial domination fetish and wants me to be their dom. I know, I know... it's tough work but someone has to do it.









thank you for your service


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I guess the part I don't follow is, what about being attracted to [people with penises] is an offensive stereotype?



Trans women are women. They aren't chicks with dicks ready for sex at a moment's notice. They aren't always dressed in high whore "fuck me" drag. Trans women aren't all about guys fixating on their penises. They don't all want to dominate and top men. They don't want to be called derogatory terms. Most of them have no interest in "shemale" porn. Lots of them have self image and body issues and aren't the "get naked at a moment's notice" types. They deserve to be taken seriously. They aren't men in dresses or ladyboys. Most of them aren't okay with being some straight guy's dirty little secret.

They are people. They're diverse. They have needs, emotions, fears, desires. They aren't some one size fits all accessory for a guy's t-girl porn obsession.

Most trans women just want to be treated like any woman does. With respect. Not seen as some living fuck doll.


Just like racial fetishes fixate on ignorant stereotypes. Most people don't want to be reduced to a porn caricature.


----------



## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

I get what you're going for, but that doesn't directly answer my question. You haven't bridged the gap between "attraction on the basis of genitals" and dehumanizing people. I don't doubt that there are people who are aggressive towards trans people, or people in drag, etc - I'm neither denying nor defending that - what I _am_ saying is that it's possible to be attracted on the basis of genitals while at the same time respecting the entirety of a person you're attracted to.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I get what you're going for, but that doesn't directly answer my question. You haven't bridged the gap between "attraction on the basis of genitals" and dehumanizing people. I don't doubt that there are people who are aggressive towards trans people, or people in drag, etc - I'm neither denying nor defending that - what I _am_ saying is that it's possible to be attracted on the basis of genitals while at the same time respecting the entirety of a person you're attracted to.


Did you miss me saying multiple times that being attracted to someone and fetishizing them are two different things? I even explained that what I'm talking about doesn't involve guys who are into women and trans women as women.

There is a difference between loving someone who happens to be trans, and fixating on a trans person based on a fantasy built around that.

People aren't their genitals..they're people. For example..I've fucked trans dudes. NOT because they're trans but because they're guys I was into. I don't fixate on them having vaginas, nor do I care if they have one or not. A guy is a guy and that's all I'm concerned with.


----------



## eggy in a bready (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> I get what you're going for, but that doesn't directly answer my question. You haven't bridged the gap between "attraction on the basis of genitals" and dehumanizing people. I don't doubt that there are people who are aggressive towards trans people, or people in drag, etc - I'm neither denying nor defending that - what I _am_ saying is that it's possible to be attracted on the basis of genitals while at the same time respecting the entirety of a person you're attracted to.


there's nothing wrong with being attracted to someone solely on the basis of them having a dick or a pussy, or whatever. 
there IS something wrong with fetishizing someone based on a specific sexual niche.

that's the distinction.


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## TedEH (Dec 16, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Did you miss me saying multiple times that being attracted to someone and fetishizing them are two different things?


Honestly, probably. In my brain, you talk about "the fetish community" often enough that any time you use the word "fetish" it doesn't register as a negative, so I very likely misread something.

In fairness, I was trying to be deliberate and specific about what question I was asking and how I phrased it, and you didn't really answer the thing I asked - rather you answered what you thought I was implying. We were basically having two different conversations at eachother, I guess. The point is long gone by now anyway.


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## bostjan (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Honestly, probably. In my brain, you talk about "the fetish community" often enough that any time you use the word "fetish" it doesn't register as a negative, so I very likely misread something.



Weird how a word or phrase starts to look/sound odd when you see/hear it too much: 
https://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/files/chicken.pdf



TedEH said:


> In fairness, I was trying to be deliberate and specific about what question I was asking and how I phrased it, and you didn't really answer the thing I asked - rather you answered what you thought I was implying. We were basically having two different conversations at eachother, I guess. The point is long gone by now anyway.



Seems to be a trend around the forums this year.  I am enjoying reading all of the points back and forth, though, even if the puzzle pieces don't fit with each other 100%.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 16, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Honestly, probably. In my brain, you talk about "the fetish community" often enough that any time you use the word "fetish" it doesn't register as a negative, so I very likely misread something.
> 
> In fairness, I was trying to be deliberate and specific about what question I was asking and how I phrased it, and you didn't really answer the thing I asked - rather you answered what you thought I was implying. We were basically having two different conversations at eachother, I guess. The point is long gone by now anyway.


the point isn't "long gone," it's literally been reiterated twice on this very page. lmao.


----------



## spudmunkey (Dec 17, 2020)

Question: 
With the changes that come with HRT, and being able to live your life "out" as a woman...do you fell like this would be "enough" to feel whole as who you are/want to be? I understand it's a different situation for everyone, but is gender-reassignment surgery something you are considering? In a previous post, you had mentioned a longing for certain aspects of CIS womanhood (mental cycle, pregnancy) but those are things that still wouldn't materialize after "bottom" surgery.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 17, 2020)

spudmunkey said:


> Question:
> With the changes that come with HRT, and being able to live your life "out" as a woman...do you fell like this would be "enough" to feel whole as who you are/want to be? I understand it's a different situation for everyone, but is gender-reassignment surgery something you are considering? In a previous post, you had mentioned a longing for certain aspects of CIS womanhood (mental cycle, pregnancy) but those are things that still wouldn't materialize after "bottom" surgery.



The way I feel now is that it's never going to be enough and I don't think I'm ever going to feel like a biological woman no matter what I do. I'm probably always going to have some sort of imposter syndrome about it. I just have to do what I can to be happier with my body because mentally I can't go back to pretending I'm a guy. I'd rather kill myself.

I don't really plan on having gender reassignment surgery because the cost and recovery time and pain of all of it isn't worth having a vagina that isn't the same as a cis womans for me. I know other people feel differently though and it varies on a person to person basis.

The only way I can really cope with it is acknowledging that there are a shit ton of women with the proper parts to have kids they and still can't for many reasons. I think that they have way more of a right to be upset about it than I do.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 17, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> The only way I can really cope with it is acknowledging that there are a shit ton of women with the proper parts to have kids they and still can't for many reasons. I think that they have way more of a right to be upset about it than I do.



I know when my mom was little they gave her birth control to treat acne and that messed her stuff up where they had to adopt me, and that was pretty hard on her.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 17, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> I know when my mom was little they gave her birth control to treat acne and that messed her stuff up where they had to adopt me, and that was pretty hard on her.



That's sad and I feel bad for her. I'm glad she was able to adopt you and be your mother though.


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2020)

Edit: Nevermind, not worth it


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## possumkiller (Dec 17, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Edit: Nevermind, not worth it


Jesus, Ted. You usually seem so likeable and cool headed. I never would've thought you were racist _and _transphobic...


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2020)

Didn't you know? I'm just the worst. Whooda thunk it.


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## Kurtz (Dec 17, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I'm MTF (male to female) if that matters.





eggy in a bready said:


> u mad bro?



When it’s hard to find the words
And tough to make a rhyme
Have a little breakfast 
Then it’s poo poo time.

I’m a rap singer. How did I do?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 17, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Jesus, Ted. You usually seem so likeable and cool headed. I never would've thought you were racist _and _transphobic...


 Is he though?


----------



## tedtan (Dec 17, 2020)

OK, here's one for the OP.

In other threads here over the years there have been discussions as to what differences there are between men and women and the consensus was typically that the differences, aside from the physical differences, were more or less societal constructs and that there weren't really any inherent differences between men and women.

Yet you have stated that you never felt like a boy/man after you were a young child.

So, in your experience, what is it to inherently feel like a woman vs inherently feel like a man?


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## possumkiller (Dec 17, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Is he though?


Idk probly... right?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 17, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Idk probly... right?


Isn't everyone?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 17, 2020)

tedtan said:


> OK, here's one for the OP.
> 
> In other threads here over the years there have been discussions as to what differences there are between men and women and the consensus was typically that the differences, aside from the physical differences, were more or less societal constructs and that there weren't really any inherent differences between men and women.
> 
> ...


This is actually a good question


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 17, 2020)

Kurtz said:


> When it’s hard to find the words
> And tough to make a rhyme
> Have a little breakfast
> Then it’s poo poo time.
> ...


there's something wrong with your brain


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 17, 2020)

possumkiller said:


> Jesus, Ted. You usually seem so likeable and cool headed. I never would've thought you were racist _and _transphobic...


well, he IS french-canadian after all...


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2020)

Canadian, yes. French-Canadian, no.


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## jaxadam (Dec 17, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Canadian, yes. French-Canadian, no.



So racist, transphobic, _and_ gallophobic?


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2020)

I can't event tell who's being sarcastic anymore. I suppose I'm too full of hate to concern myself about it.


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## eggy in a bready (Dec 17, 2020)

i don't think you're transphobic.

a bit of a passive aggressive debatelord? absolutely.


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## jaxadam (Dec 17, 2020)

I actually don't really think you're anything-phobic or -ist.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 17, 2020)

No one actually thinks he is. Confused on the topic? Yes..but that's what this thread is for. It's a learning experience.

FWIW this thread should be where people ask honest questions and learn. We can't start throwing the transphobic label around to people asking genuine questions. We don't get anywhere on the learning front if a hostile environment is given.

Not saying anyone is doing this, just saying. Let's keep the thread open and civilized.


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## TedEH (Dec 17, 2020)

eggy in a bready said:


> a bit of a passive aggressive debatelord? absolutely.


Sure, I can own that.

+1 to what Drakkar just said.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 17, 2020)

tedtan said:


> OK, here's one for the OP.
> 
> In other threads here over the years there have been discussions as to what differences there are between men and women and the consensus was typically that the differences, aside from the physical differences, were more or less societal constructs and that there weren't really any inherent differences between men and women.
> 
> ...



This is a hard one to answer and I think a lot of it is mental and how men and women think and perceive people differently which is why I feel like I have a female brain in a biological male body. I've just always felt like I never fit in with guys and felt uncomfortable around most of them. I've never really thought with my dick so to speak like the majority of men I know do and it became way more obvious during puberty and highschool. I've just always connected better with women and fit in better with them. I've had multiple girls who told me pre transition that I don't have the creepy predatory energy that the majority of men have and they feel safe and comfortable around me because they know I won't do anything to hurt them. Before covid when I could still go to the bar other girls would just come sit by me and talk and I could tell that they weren't interested in hooking up with me or anything. I think they could just sense some kind of female energy or something.

Sorry that this is kind of a bad answer and it's hard for me to explain besides saying how I've felt most of my life.


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## BornToLooze (Dec 18, 2020)

I'm going to ask this the best way I can, but I have a way with bluntness...

Drakkar, what's up with you? I think I've read on here where you've posted about it but are you trans too?


I kinda get what you are saying about having a feminine brain in a dudes body. My mom went through some shit to get me, and wound up kinda controlling out of it. I'll skip a whole thread's worth of issues, but I think my brain is half fem and half "normie". 

Do you still have any masculine tenancies you wish you could change?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 18, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> I'm going to ask this the best way I can, but I have a way with bluntness...
> 
> Drakkar, what's up with you? I think I've read on here where you've posted about it but are you trans too?
> 
> ...



I don't think that Drakkar is trans but that's up to them talk about and I respect them regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity.

I think your problem isn't that your brain is half fem and half masc. I think you said that you might be bi earlier in the thread. I think a lot if it might be internalized homophobia/biphobia. Depending on how you were raised and if you repressed your feelings at all it can take a long time to work through. I'm also not a therapist/psychologist/counselor so I can't make a professional judgment. I'm just posting my own personal feelings and opinions.

I don't think I have any masculine tendencies I wish I could change. I really don't think I ever have. Pretty much all of my male friends have always thought I was weird before I came out and started transitioning because I didn't really act like they did. The only times I feel I've acted stereotypically masculine were when I was a teenager just so I'd fit in and have some sort of friend group and not get bullied. It was just an act and I'm not proud or happy about it but it's what I felt like I had to do at the time.


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## TedEH (Dec 18, 2020)

You've described men as being aggressive and predatory - do you feel like anyone who doesn't fit that description is not what you'd categorize as a man?
As in - do you feel like that characterization IS what it means to be male? 

Or to put it a different way, if you were to encounter a person who - everything else aside and without being told otherwise - was very calm, passive, people-oriented, emotion-driven, compassionate, empathetic, etc., would that maybe be the basis for which you would call that person a woman? Or do you believe that men can also have those traits?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 18, 2020)

No I'm not. However, as I've said before, I recommend every guy do drag for a while. You start to understand a lot of what trans people experience. Not to mention I know lots of trans people who I consider family.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 18, 2020)

TedEH said:


> You've described men as being aggressive and predatory - do you feel like anyone who doesn't fit that description is not what you'd categorize as a man?
> As in - do you feel like that characterization IS what it means to be male?
> 
> Or to put it a different way, if you were to encounter a person who - everything else aside and without being told otherwise - was very calm, passive, people-oriented, emotion-driven, compassionate, empathetic, etc., would that maybe be the basis for which you would call that person a woman? Or do you believe that men can also have those traits?



Of course I don't think that every man is aggressive and predatory and if someone isn't that doesn't make them a man. Men can definitely be calm and compassionate and stuff too. I don't know what it means to be male other than it's how you'd feel inside I guess.

What do you think it means to be male? My experiences with "being male" were awful the majority of the time and I have no idea how I pretended for so long (shoutout to gender dysphoria). You probably have better insight to it than me because as far as I'm aware you and the other posters in this thread are all cisgender.


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## possumkiller (Dec 18, 2020)

So if I am cisgender, does that make me... a cissy?


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## spudmunkey (Dec 18, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> Of course I don't think that every man is aggressive and predatory and if someone isn't that doesn't make them a man. Men can definitely be calm and compassionate and stuff too. I don't know what it means to be male other than it's how you'd feel inside I guess.
> 
> What do you think it means to be male? My experiences with "being male" were awful the majority of the time and I have no idea how I pretended for so long (shoutout to gender dysphoria). You probably have better insight to it than me because as far as I'm aware you and the other posters in this thread are all cisgender.



If I were to describe what it's like "being male", and I have to assume "being female" is similar, I feel like I would seemingly talk mostly Bout what's expected of me, or how I'm treated, vs any sort of tangible "feeling".


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## BornToLooze (Dec 18, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I think your problem isn't that your brain is half fem and half masc. I think you said that you might be bi earlier in the thread. I think a lot if it might be internalized homophobia/biphobia. Depending on how you were raised and if you repressed your feelings at all it can take a long time to work through. I'm also not a therapist/psychologist/counselor so I can't make a professional judgment. I'm just posting my own personal feelings and opinions.



My thing is I've been talking about with my wife and trying to what label fits because I had repressed stuff for a long time. At the end of it I came back to where I started, I don't identify as a dude or a chick, I identify as ME, I'm going to do whatever the hell I want, wear whatever the hell I want, and be attracted to whoever the hell I want.


----------



## TedEH (Dec 18, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> What do you think it means to be male?


I don't expect my answer to that to be well received, so unless I'm explicitly asked, I tend to defer to "it means whatever I think the person I'm speaking to thinks it means". If you were to ask me why I call myself male, I'd say I base it entirely on sex. I think that historically and colloquially, that's what it usually means. If you asked if I "feel male" I'd say that I don't generally think of it in terms of feelings - I occasionally think that I don't fit the stereotype of a manly-man, but I don't think you have to "be masculine" or "feel like a man" to "be male" - and I'd argue that it's a relatively common male experience to "not feel very manly".


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 18, 2020)

I don't know what you motherfuckers are talking about. I'm a MANLY man


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## TedEH (Dec 18, 2020)

Confidence is manly right?


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 18, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Confidence is manly right?



Confidence is gender neutral


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## BornToLooze (Dec 20, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> No I'm not. However, as I've said before, I recommend every guy do drag for a while. You start to understand a lot of what trans people experience. Not to mention I know lots of trans people who I consider family.



So I get what you mean, but do you think there is a difference between dressing in drag and trying to present as fem? Because I saw a show about drag racing before, and Ru Paul is definitely a Ford guy.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 20, 2020)

BornToLooze said:


> So I get what you mean, but do you think there is a difference between dressing in drag and trying to present as fem? Because I saw a show about drag racing before, and Ru Paul is definitely a Ford guy.



There's a world of difference. Drag is just a costume. Drag queens are literally clowns for adults..even the ones that are super fem. At the end of the day they're just party clowns.

A trans person presenting as fem is doing so because she's just being herself.

The thing is..when it comes to experiencing some of the trans experience, drag is a good substitute. One you learn a lot about feminizing yourself physically and character wise, not only that but you get a taste of the discrimination trans people face as well as some of the uncomfortable situations they fall into.


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 20, 2020)

I just wanna say that drag shows are really fun and anyone who hasn't been to one is missing out.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 20, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I just wanna say that drag shows are really fun and anyone who hasn't been to one is missing out.


Ugh...drag shows *shivers*


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## SexHaver420 (Dec 20, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ugh...drag shows *shivers*



I've been to a few and I always had fun. I have no idea what it's like to perform at one and I'm sure you have plenty of reasons that you haven't mentioned in the thread for not doing them anymore.

Please teach me how to do makeup though. I need help.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 20, 2020)

SexHaver420 said:


> I've been to a few and I always had fun. I have no idea what it's like to perform at one and I'm sure you have plenty of reasons that you haven't mentioned in the thread for not doing them anymore.
> 
> Please teach me how to do makeup though. I need help.



Yeah, I don't miss that scene at all but if you ever want advice about stuff feel free to ask. Drag isn't the same as being trans BUT a lot of the drag resources can be beneficial. That and the because of the scene I know a bunch of trans girls. Feel free to inbox me anytime


----------



## Merrekof (Dec 20, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Ugh...drag shows *shivers*


Haha, the wife here watches RuPauls Drag Race. I see some parts of the show here and there and I can relate to the clown statement above, I believe this could be fun to watch though..I just don't understand 99% of the jokes and references they make.


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## TedEH (Dec 20, 2020)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Drag is just a costume. Drag queens are literally clowns for adults..even the ones that are super fem. At the end of the day they're just party clowns.


Do you ever come across people who get upset because of this? As in, people who would say you're making fun of women, or making a joke or spectacle out of femininity, and should be "taking it seriously"? I could imagine some getting upset for sort of the opposite reason, because they take the idea of drag _dead seriously_ and it's _not for entertainment_ or something?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Dec 20, 2020)

TedEH said:


> Do you ever come across people who get upset because of this? As in, people who would say you're making fun of women, or making a joke or spectacle out of femininity, and should be "taking it seriously"? I could imagine some getting upset for sort of the opposite reason, because they take the idea of drag _dead seriously_ and it's _not for entertainment_ or something?



Yeah every now and then some nutty bitch will claim it's blackface for women. Or you get some jealous trans chick trying to cause an issue based on her own insecurities.

But honestly the whole idea of drag is a caricature of the concepts of what femininity is. Drag queens aren't supposed to be real women, they're a cartoon version of the female archetype based on silly and often times unrealistic beauty standards.

That being said, I did genderfuck drag and monster drag for quite some time so I avoided most of all that conversation. I don't even look human the majority of the time, let alone like a woman.


----------



## possumkiller (Jan 13, 2021)

My wife works with a transgender lady (MtF) and they are having a difficult time. We are in Poland but Gdansk is a pretty liberal town. This person is originally from Holland and lived in the UK and US. She is always talking about how suicidal she is and has been taken to a psychiatric facility because of repeated suicide threats. There are many people that have helped her with things such as moving and finding a place to live or taking care of her dog while she is away for treatment. For some reason people that want to help her are not good enough and she goes on public facebook rants about how shitty those people are. How is someone supposed to work and deal with this type of person?


----------



## TedEH (Jan 13, 2021)

I'd argue the MtF detail is irrelevant - you have a person who needs more help than you can be expected to provide. That's a situation to defer to professionals - both because it's not reasonable to expect you to know what to do, but also because you don't need to take on the burden (and consequences) of someone elses issues.


----------



## possumkiller (Jan 13, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I'd argue the MtF detail is irrelevant - you have a person who needs more help than you can be expected to provide. That's a situation to defer to professionals - both because it's not reasonable to expect you to know what to do, but also because you don't need to take on the burden (and consequences) of someone elses issues.


I mean that's what I thought. Seems like way too much bs to deal with for me. Apparently my wife's team at work is trying to be super understanding because of the whole transgender thing. And I just keep thinking to myself that if this person wasn't transgender, people wouldn't be trying so hard and dealing with all that BS.


----------



## tedtan (Jan 13, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I'd argue the MtF detail is irrelevant - you have a person who needs more help than you can be expected to provide. That's a situation to defer to professionals - both because it's not reasonable to expect you to know what to do, but also because you don't need to take on the burden (and consequences) of someone elses issues.



I'm with TedEH here.

This isn't related to being transgender, these are deep rooted psychological issues on display and this individual probably needs full time in patient psychiatric care.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron (Jan 13, 2021)

How's your day going?
Do you like coffee?
As a guitar player, has your transformation effected the ergonomics of your playing posture? If so, how?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 13, 2021)

William DeWolfe said:


> How's your day going?
> Do you like coffee?
> As a guitar player, has your transformation effected the ergonomics of your playing posture? If so, how?



At first I thought that last question was completely fucking stupid. Then I thought about it...

Honestly if you go from being flat chested to having tits, it may actually change things regarding the strap placement or even where you hang your guitar. On top of that, hormones make your titties hurt for a while and your nipples are extra sensitive, so guitar playing might irritate that.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron (Jan 13, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> At first I thought that last question was completely fucking stupid. Then I thought about it...
> 
> Honestly if you go from being flat chested to having tits, it may actually change things regarding the strap placement or even where you hang your guitar. On top of that, hormones make your titties hurt for a while and your nipples are extra sensitive, so guitar playing might irritate that.



Yeah, it's totally a legit question, and my curiosity. I'm not an insensitive or unempathetic jerk.


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 13, 2021)

William DeWolfe said:


> Yeah, it's totally a legit question, and my curiosity. I'm not an insensitive or unempathetic jerk.


I originally read it as a joke question, and then I realized it actually makes perfect sense and is a really good question.


----------



## SexHaver420 (Jan 13, 2021)

William DeWolfe said:


> How's your day going?
> Do you like coffee?
> As a guitar player, has your transformation effected the ergonomics of your playing posture? If so, how?



My day is ok. There was a big windstorm here and a tree fell on my parents garage and my old car (1981 Mazda RX-7) that's at their house because I didn't have room to take it with me when I moved. That part kinda sucks. As far as I can tell it just broke the back window and dented the roof. I got lunch and went clearance shopping with my mom which was fun tho.

I think coffee is alright but I don't drink it very much and when I do it's just black coffee. I prefer tea.

I've had to change how I hold my strat when I play sitting down because the top horn hits me in the boob and it hurts but other than that nothing has changed really. My boobs are pretty small and still growing so I might have to change more stuff later on. I should just sell everything and get more Vs because they're the best shape and then I don't have to worry about hitting my boobs with them.


----------



## theo (Jan 13, 2021)

Cool to see this topic opened up in a pretty metal centric location. 

OP I am curious about your journey with HRT? (I confess I didn't read all 15 pages before posting so I am making an assumption that you're on it).

Any unexpected pro's/con's or funny stories?


----------



## SexHaver420 (Jan 13, 2021)

theo said:


> Cool to see this topic opened up in a pretty metal centric location.
> 
> OP I am curious about your journey with HRT? (I confess I didn't read all 15 pages before posting so I am making an assumption that you're on it).
> 
> Any unexpected pro's/con's or funny stories?



HRT has been great so far. I've been on it a few months and if I didn't start it I'd be dead right now. I feel "right" for the first time in my entire life. Before I started I was fucking miserable and something always felt wrong with me no matter how good or bad my life was going. There was always just this thing that was wrong. It was my brain not knowing what to do with all of the testosterone I had and me repressing every feminine feeling or urge I'd had since I was a little kid. I knew that if I told anyone about my problems or how I felt when I was little I'd get in a bunch of trouble and shamed and disciplined so I just kept it to myself for ~20 years.

Now I'm way calmer and happier and I have way less anxiety and depression. I'm also at the point where physical changes are happening and they're noticeable and it makes me really happy. I'm finally able to look in the mirror and see myself instead of someone who I didn't feel was me. It kind of feels like being trapped in a body that isn't yours and it just got worse during puberty because stuff was changing and doing things I knew shouldn't be happening and I had no way to stop it.

The only thing I don't like is that I've lost quite a bit of strength and muscle mass which is to be expected when you have less testosterone. I'm also on a medication called Spironolactone to block my testosterone and it makes me dehydrated and it's also a diuretic so I'm always thirsty and always have to pee regardless of how much water I drink. I have an appointment in a month and I'm going to see if I can switch to something else or get off of it completely.


----------



## ResistentialAssultSquadron (Jan 13, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> My day is ok. There was a big windstorm here and a tree fell on my parents garage and my old car (1981 Mazda RX-7) that's at their house because I didn't have room to take it with me when I moved. That part kinda sucks. As far as I can tell it just broke the back window and dented the roof. I got lunch and went clearance shopping with my mom which was fun tho.
> 
> I think coffee is alright but I don't drink it very much and when I do it's just black coffee. I prefer tea.
> 
> I've had to change how I hold my strat when I play sitting down because the top horn hits me in the boob and it hurts but other than that nothing has changed really. My boobs are pretty small and still growing so I might have to change more stuff later on. I should just sell everything and get more Vs because they're the best shape and then I don't have to worry about hitting my boobs with them.



Bummer about the car ...and thanks for the response. That insight helps cast light on stuff that I've had thoughts on through the years...this one, specifically, regarding how comfortable women are playing standard guitar designs.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 13, 2021)

William DeWolfe said:


> Bummer about the car ...and thanks for the response. That insight helps cast light on stuff that I've had thoughts on through the years...this one, specifically, regarding how comfortable women are playing standard guitar designs.



Everyone should just play a V cuz they're cool. I might be biased because I've wanted a RR1 since I started playing guitar.


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## ResistentialAssultSquadron (Jan 13, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> Everyone should just play a V cuz they're cool. I might be biased because I've wanted a RR1 since I started playing guitar.



I'm not comfy anything that isn't hugging against me...if I could get a guitar designed to wear like a tuba, I'd probably give up wearing clothes. Ha!


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## TedEH (Jan 13, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> Everyone should just play a V cuz they're cool.


If it wasn't for the kinda gaudy looks, an ML shape has a lot of the qualities of a V, but can also be held a "normal" way when sitting instead of being stuck needing to awkwardly jam the horns between your legs.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 13, 2021)

TedEH said:


> If it wasn't for the kinda gaudy looks, an ML shape has a lot of the qualities of a V, but can also be held a "normal" way when sitting instead of being stuck needing to awkwardly jam the horns between your legs.


 I never understood this. Sitting down with a v just seems natural and I have no idea why people think it's so awkward


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 13, 2021)

TedEH said:


> If it wasn't for the kinda gaudy looks, an ML shape has a lot of the qualities of a V, but can also be held a "normal" way when sitting instead of being stuck needing to awkwardly jam the horns between your legs.



MLs just remind me of Pantera and that band sucks and I think they look weird.




DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I never understood this. Sitting down with a v just seems natural and I have no idea why people think it's so awkward



True facts. They're really comfy to play sitting down.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 14, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> MLs just remind me of Pantera and that band sucks and I think they look weird.



I thought the exact same thing and avoided them for years. Then I played one and it was perfect. They're really big guitars though. My guitarist tried mine and since he's a small dude it looked comical on him. It looked like he was trying to carry a full grown person


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## p0ke (Jan 14, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> I never understood this. Sitting down with a v just seems natural and I have no idea why people think it's so awkward



You just gotta get used to playing it in classical position as opposed to strats etc usually sitting on the right leg. Never had any problems myself, but people are picky about much smaller things sometimes, so I'm not at all surprised that someone can't get used to that.


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## BornToLooze (Jan 14, 2021)

p0ke said:


> You just gotta get used to playing it in classical position as opposed to strats etc usually sitting on the right leg. Never had any problems myself, but people are picky about much smaller things sometimes, so I'm not at all surprised that someone can't get used to that.



A Vs the only guitar I've ever felt comfortable with sitting down.

One thing I have to say about Vs though...I was in a band in high school around when Through the Fire and the Flames came out, and when we were playing I did the thing like Dragonforce dude did, were I picked guitar up by the whammy bar and dropped it. Don't do that with a V. You will take a horn to the nuts.


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## Edika (Jan 14, 2021)

Annie Clark, the St.Vincent guitarist has an Ernie Ball sig that was designed to be comfortable for women playing as the shape supposedly doesn't bump on the breasts. Not a fan of the shape, despite having manboobs, but a lot of people here liked it. It would be quite expensive though unless they have a Sterling version.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 14, 2021)

Edika said:


> Annie Clark, the St.Vincent guitarist has an Ernie Ball sig that was designed to be comfortable for women playing as the shape supposedly doesn't bump on the breasts. Not a fan of the shape, despite having manboobs, but a lot of people here liked it. It would be quite expensive though unless they have a Sterling version.



I've played a few of them and like every Musicman guitar and bass I've ever played I'm not a big fan of them. The local shop here that's a Musicman dealer had one that was dark gray and sparkly for a while with a roasted neck that looked cool though. 

I don't really think guitars hitting me in the boobs is ever gonna really be a problem though. I'm a AA cup right now and I'll probably be lucky to get to a B cup without implants. 

#smallboobgang


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## BornToLooze (Jan 15, 2021)

So, something I'm kinda curious about. I drink a lot, and I smoke, so my voice is more on the Tom Waits spectrum. 

But I know @DrakkarTyrannis has talked about dudes trying drag, but I never really got over my emo phase, so I've gotten fairly good at being androgynous-ish. Are there any good tips on getting your voice to pass?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 15, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> So, something I'm kinda curious about. I drink a lot, and I smoke, so my voice is more on the Tom Waits spectrum.
> 
> But I know @DrakkarTyrannis has talked about dudes trying drag, but I never really got over my emo phase, so I've gotten fairly good at being androgynous-ish. Are there any good tips on getting your voice to pass?


 Funny you mention that. Back in the day we called it "tranny voice" and it was how you knock the bass off your voice and bring it up a little bit to not sound so manly.

I'd gotten so good at it that I'd fooled people on the phone, in Webcam, even in person. These days I do my own female backing vox and a bunch of different voices.

Try speaking in a more breathless kinda tone. Sort of emulate some phone sex chick voice. It'll sound dumb at first but it teaches you how you set your throat up to cut to low end out while putting certain speech and vocal inflections in to sound more feminine.

This might not work for anyone, this isn't a brag I promise but I have a 5 octave vocal range and I spent a lot of years singing Patti Labelle, Prince, and Chaka Khan songs so my upper registers and falsetto come naturally even if that's not my normal speaking voice. That may have a lot to do with it so YMMV


----------



## SexHaver420 (Jan 15, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> So, something I'm kinda curious about. I drink a lot, and I smoke, so my voice is more on the Tom Waits spectrum.
> 
> But I know @DrakkarTyrannis has talked about dudes trying drag, but I never really got over my emo phase, so I've gotten fairly good at being androgynous-ish. Are there any good tips on getting your voice to pass?



I don't really think my voice is ever going to be very passable so I can't help you there. Years of pushing my harsh vocals too hard and basically chugging whiskey and smoking fucked it up (at least I have super gnarly vocals for a girl tho lol). I don't smoke anymore and my doctor told me that smoking can make it harder for my body to absorb estrogen. I've barely been drinking recently too. I'm also a natural baritone. I can do a more feminine voice and I don't think it's passable but my friends have all told me that my voice sounds different and more girly. They thought it was the hormones because they didn't know estrogen doesn't have an effect on your voice.


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## BornToLooze (Jan 15, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This might not work for anyone, this isn't a brag I promise but I have a 5 octave vocal range and I spent a lot of years singing Patti Labelle, Prince, and Chaka Khan songs so my upper registers and falsetto come naturally even if that's not my normal speaking voice. That may have a lot to do with it so YMMV



I have a very limited vocal range. I can't do the normal metal rough vocals, but I can do Motorhead, and the one dad thing I have going for me, I can speak batman.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 15, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> I have a very limited vocal range. I can't do the normal metal rough vocals, but I can do Motorhead, and the one dad thing I have going for me, I can speak batman.


You might not be able to do completely passable vocals but you might be able to at least soften it up a bit


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## ScottThunes1960 (Jan 15, 2021)

Edika said:


> Annie Clark, the St.Vincent guitarist has an Ernie Ball sig that was designed to be comfortable for women



That was a (quickly dropped) marketing angle from when suits were afraid the sales would flop. It ended up being a very successful guitar, and I think a Sterling model was out by the next NAMM. Clickbait articles aside, I don’t recall seeing the “Finally, a guitar broads can play!” sentiment being used by EBMM or Annie since the guitar was first released. Frankly, until a guitar designed to be played with the genitals is put out there, the instrument could care less how many X chromosomes one has.

That said, I’m pretty sure Ken Parker never had a lady try his guitar before it was put into production.


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## Edika (Jan 15, 2021)

ScottThunes1960 said:


> That was a (quickly dropped) marketing angle from when suits were afraid the sales would flop. It ended up being a very successful guitar, and I think a Sterling model was out by the next NAMM. Clickbait articles aside, I don’t recall seeing the “Finally, a guitar broads can play!” sentiment being used by EBMM or Annie since the guitar was first released. Frankly, until a guitar designed to be played with the genitals is put out there, the instrument could care less how many X chromosomes one has.
> 
> That said, I’m pretty sure Ken Parker never had a lady try his guitar before it was put into production.



It was mostly her that when asked about the model she said she wanted this design having in mind a female anatomy and it made it easier for her to play. I'm guessing she had in mind playing the guitar sitting down or standing up and not having it rubbing or bumping against her breasts.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 15, 2021)

The St. Vincent guitar is just based on this dude and I heard or read about it somewhere.


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## ScottThunes1960 (Jan 15, 2021)

Edika said:


> It was mostly her that when asked about the model she said she wanted this design having in mind a female anatomy and it made it easier for her to play. I'm guessing she had in mind playing the guitar sitting down or standing up and not having it rubbing or bumping against her breasts.



My point was only that it’s not designed *for* women, as you claimed. - It’s just a comfortable guitar that someone drew up to resemble Klaus Nomi (as mentioned above). I joked about the Parker Fly because that’s the only guitar design I can think of that interferes with breast tissue. For anything else, there’s this thing called a guitar strap that can be raised or lowered until comfortable. Anyway, let me be totally wrong - I don’t want to derail the thread.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 15, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> The St. Vincent guitar is just based on this dude and I heard or read about it somewhere.


KLAUS NOMI ❤


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## BornToLooze (Jan 15, 2021)

ScottThunes1960 said:


> For anything else, there’s this thing called a guitar strap that can be raised or lowered until comfortable. Anyway, let me be totally wrong - I don’t want to derail the thread.



As a fat dude, man boobs have only ever got into the way with an acoustic. Everything else is a gut problem.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 15, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> As a fat dude, man boobs have only ever got into the way with an acoustic. Everything else is a gut problem.


My guitar is slung so low I don't have any of those issues. I've often wondered if I'd raise it if I lost weight but it's unlikely. Over the years by guitar has always been low so I doubt not having a gut would fix that


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## BornToLooze (Jan 16, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> My guitar is slung so low I don't have any of those issues. I've often wondered if I'd raise it if I lost weight but it's unlikely. Over the years by guitar has always been low so I doubt not having a gut would fix that



It's like a Roy Clark video I've seen. The back of my guitars don't get along with front of me.


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## BlackMastodon (Jan 16, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> As a fat dude, man boobs have only ever got into the way with an acoustic. Everything else is a gut problem.


As a skinny dude with little to no pecs, I can say guitar horns digging into the chest aren't very comfortable for us either, but I also play sitting down with no strap and slouched over the guitar when I'm not paying attention, so I'm definitely part of the problem.


Wait, this isn't the First World Problems thread...


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## USMarine75 (Jan 16, 2021)

Have you ever masturbated to an Alex Jones video?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 16, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Have you ever masturbated to an Alex Jones video?


Who hasn't? Everytime he says "I'm comin for you!"...instant nut


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## Thaeon (Jan 16, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Have you ever masturbated to an Alex Jones video?



I think the draw there is how embarrassed he should be for his content.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 16, 2021)

Thaeon said:


> I think the draw there is how embarrassed he should be for his content.



So a sad yank then?


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## Thaeon (Jan 16, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> So a sad yank then?



Sad? No, laughing like Joker.


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## Edika (Jan 16, 2021)

ScottThunes1960 said:


> My point was only that it’s not designed *for* women, as you claimed. - It’s just a comfortable guitar that someone drew up to resemble Klaus Nomi (as mentioned above). I joked about the Parker Fly because that’s the only guitar design I can think of that interferes with breast tissue. For anything else, there’s this thing called a guitar strap that can be raised or lowered until comfortable. Anyway, let me be totally wrong - I don’t want to derail the thread.



Not want to derail the thread either but it was not my claim. I don't care for the shape and I haven't tried it to see how comfortable it is. I thought she went with that angle on a couple of interviews she did about the guitar but maybe I didn't remember correctly. I'm not a fan of her music, everything drowned in fuzz and I hate fuzz, so I don't really follow whatever she says and does.

And you are correct about the strap placement but what about sitting down and playing? So many times you see female players having their breasts compressed by a guitar while sitting down. It seems rather uncomfortable for them for sure.

To the OP, I can't say I truly comprehend the extent of your whole experience but I do sympathise with your struggle. It is good thing you're doing better and you're in a path that expresses you and makes feel happy.


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## TedEH (Jan 16, 2021)

BlackMastodon said:


> As a skinny dude with little to no pecs, I can say guitar horns digging into the chest aren't very comfortable for us either


Now that I think of it - I've been on both sides of that fence, both the manboobs and the skinny sternum and I think the unwanted guitar horns jabbing into a skinny chest is more uncomfortable than any manboob situation.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 17, 2021)

USMarine75 said:


> Have you ever masturbated to an Alex Jones video?



Nah. 



Edika said:


> I hate fuzz
> 
> To the OP, I can't say I truly comprehend the extent of your whole experience but I do sympathise with your struggle. It is good thing you're doing better and you're in a path that expresses you and makes feel happy.



I'm not happy anymore because you hate fuzz.


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## lewis (Jan 18, 2021)

Devils advocate question.
If you had been born into one of these tribes that still live completely cut off from modern society even today, in some of the most remote places on the planet - would you still have had this complete desire to change your gender- and done so ? Becoming female.

Or do you think alot of it (the urge to change, the pressure that you feel wrong in your own skin etc), even subconsciously, has been down to modern society potentially altering your viewpoint on your own self?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 18, 2021)

lewis said:


> Devils advocate question.
> If you had been born into one of these tribes that still live completely cut off from modern society even today, in some of the most remote places on the planet - would you still have had this complete desire to change your gender- and done so ? Becoming female.
> 
> Or do you think alot of it (the urge to change, the pressure that you feel wrong in your own skin etc), even subconsciously, has been down to modern society potentially altering your viewpoint on your own self?



Evidence of people being trans and/or various other LGBTQ has been found about as far back as we can go in human history. The notion that it's something recent and attributable to "modern" society is inaccurate.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 18, 2021)

lewis said:


> Devils advocate question.
> If you had been born into one of these tribes that still live completely cut off from modern society even today, in some of the most remote places on the planet - would you still have had this complete desire to change your gender- and done so ? Becoming female.
> 
> Or do you think alot of it (the urge to change, the pressure that you feel wrong in your own skin etc), even subconsciously, has been down to modern society potentially altering your viewpoint on your own self?



I'd still have the feeling that something was wrong and I'm a woman inside but the outside doesn't match. I'd imagine that I would try to transition the best I could. I also don't like terms like "becoming female" because I've always been a female inside and it's super fucking shitty to feel like a girl your whole life and have everyone invalidate you all day every day because they think you're a guy and they treat you like one.

Modern society hasn't altered my viewpoint on myself. Being trans is something you're born with and it takes some people longer than others to figure it out. I'd known since I was pretty little but kept it hidden because I didn't know how to express myself and I was scared of the consequences. I kept repressing it until I hit a wall and the choices were either accept it and transition or die.

As soon as I started taking estrogen the feeling that something was wrong completely went away and my body finally felt like it was mine. My body and brain finally have the right hormones inside and without them it's honestly impossible for me to be a happy comfortable confident person. I actually look forward to waking up in the morning now.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Evidence of people being trans and/or various other LGBTQ has been found about as far back as we can go in human history. The notion that it's something recent and attributable to "modern" society is inaccurate.


Is that a fair comparison? I've read/heard about third/alternate genders in other cultures, like the "twospririted" etc, but these seem (to me at least) to be pretty distinct from the way we handle gender non-conformity in _this_ culture. I'm not saying I think that someones feelings about themselves would be dramatically different in those other cases, but I'd imagine that the surrounding culture has at least some impact on how people internalize or interpret those feelings. Talking strictly about societal roles - who's to say what someone might feel about their roles if they were in a culture that already defined them entirely different than we do?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 18, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Is that a fair comparison? I've read/heard about third/alternate genders in other cultures, like the "twospririted" etc, but these seem (to me at least) to be pretty distinct from the way we handle gender non-conformity in _this_ culture. I'm not saying I think that someones feelings about themselves would be dramatically different in those other cases, but I'd imagine that the surrounding culture has at least some impact on how people internalize or interpret those feelings. Talking strictly about societal roles - who's to say what someone might feel about their roles if they were in a culture that already defined them entirely different than we do?



Hard to say. 

I was merely responding to the subtext that LGBTQ people are a modern apparition. Which is something I've seen quite often.


----------



## theo (Jan 18, 2021)

OP (and mods) I don't want to push any boundaries of appropriateness or forum rules but I'm curious as to how HRT has affected or changed the way you get physically intimate with a partner?

(please don't ban me mods I promise this question is with genuine curiosity and good intention!)


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

theo said:


> OP (and mods) I don't want to push any boundaries of appropriateness or forum rules but I'm curious as to how HRT has affected or changed the way you get physically intimate with a partner?
> 
> (please don't ban me mods I promise this question is with genuine curiosity and good intention!)



It doesn't offend me at all but it's up to the mods. I can pm you if you would like so the thread stays more work safe cuz there's quite a bit of stuff that will be hard to explain in that way.


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## lewis (Jan 19, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I'd still have the feeling that something was wrong and I'm a woman inside but the outside doesn't match. I'd imagine that I would try to transition the best I could. I also don't like terms like "becoming female" because I've always been a female inside and it's super fucking shitty to feel like a girl your whole life and have everyone invalidate you all day every day because they think you're a guy and they treat you like one.
> 
> Modern society hasn't altered my viewpoint on myself. Being trans is something you're born with and it takes some people longer than others to figure it out. I'd known since I was pretty little but kept it hidden because I didn't know how to express myself and I was scared of the consequences. I kept repressing it until I hit a wall and the choices were either accept it and transition or die.
> 
> As soon as I started taking estrogen the feeling that something was wrong completely went away and my body finally felt like it was mine. My body and brain finally have the right hormones inside and without them it's honestly impossible for me to be a happy comfortable confident person. I actually look forward to waking up in the morning now.



Excellent reply. Thanks  
Insightful. 

(Sorry for the poor choice/slip up from me about the "becoming female" - meant that more from the perspective of society really, not yourself. But will try not make that error again)


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Is that a fair comparison? I've read/heard about third/alternate genders in other cultures, like the "twospririted" etc, but these seem (to me at least) to be pretty distinct from the way we handle gender non-conformity in _this_ culture. I'm not saying I think that someones feelings about themselves would be dramatically different in those other cases, but I'd imagine that the surrounding culture has at least some impact on how people internalize or interpret those feelings. Talking strictly about societal roles - who's to say what someone might feel about their roles if they were in a culture that already defined them entirely different than we do?



The fact that in every culture there are trans people proves that transgenderism is a thing. All it takes is for a human to realize that something is not right with them and then figure out the solution. Even if you take away modern society, all a human would have to do is look to the opposite sex and realize they associate more with that than their own reflection.

It's not the gender role that a transgender person is attracted to but the gender itself. Doing things to conform to the gender roles of the culture is just the way to make it outwardly obvious as to how they identify but that's not unique. Cisgendered people do the exactly same thing. It's pretty much a survival thing.


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## lewis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Is that a fair comparison? I've read/heard about third/alternate genders in other cultures, like the "twospririted" etc, but these seem (to me at least) to be pretty distinct from the way we handle gender non-conformity in _this_ culture. I'm not saying I think that someones feelings about themselves would be dramatically different in those other cases, but I'd imagine that the surrounding culture has at least some impact on how people internalize or interpret those feelings. *Talking strictly about societal roles - who's to say what someone might feel about their roles if they were in a culture that already defined them entirely different than we do*?



I love this question. I'm really fascinated by roles society plays these days in just about anything and I think this is a really interesting question to put forward on this subject.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> The fact that in every culture there are trans people proves that transgenderism is a thing. [...] It's not the gender role that a transgender person is attracted to but the gender itself.


It's comments like this that lead me to asking people what they mean when they talk about gender - because too much of this is abstracted beyond being able to mean the same as what I was trying to talk about. "In every culture there are trans people" doesn't mean that every culture understands what it means to be trans the same way, or that those other cultures have "our version" of trans people, or that they think of gender or sex the same way we do at all. I mean WE can't even get two people to think of these things the same way. There are certainly other cultures that have transsexuals. Other cultures certainly have people who fall outside of their defined traditional roles. But we're looking at it from a perspective of a culture that has drawn a lot of social lines on the basis of sex, even when sex has nothing to do with it, which I don't think we can assume applies to other cultures in the same way.

Like I don't understand at all what "it's not the role, it's the gender" is supposed to mean. Is the gender not the role? If it's neither sex nor a social role, then what is it? And if we can't (or refuse to) define or discuss or come to some consensus or conclusion as to what these mean, should we not refrain from applying contested vague abstractions to other cultures?


----------



## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> It's comments like this that lead me to asking people what they mean when they talk about gender - because too much of this is abstracted beyond being able to mean the same as what I was trying to talk about. "In every culture there are trans people" doesn't mean that every culture understands what it means to be trans the same way, or that those other cultures have "our version" of trans people, or that they think of gender or sex the same way we do at all. I mean WE can't even get two people to think of these things the same way. There are certainly other cultures that have transsexuals. Other cultures certainly have people who fall outside of their defined traditional roles. But we're looking at it from a perspective of a culture that has drawn a lot of social lines on the basis of sex, even when sex has nothing to do with it, which I don't think we can assume applies to other cultures in the same way.
> 
> Like I don't understand at all what "it's not the role, it's the gender" is supposed to mean. Is the gender not the role? If it's neither sex nor a social role, then what is it? And if we can't (or refuse to) define or discuss or come to some consensus or conclusion as to what these mean, should we not refrain from applying contested abstractions to other cultures?



It's very simple and you're making it far more complex than necessary.

Every culture has an idea of female and male roles. Regardless of what those societal roles are, a trans person would STILL be a trans person.

A trans woman isn't trans just because they want to wear a dress or have long hair. They identify as female. Regardless of what we think a female is, that's how they identify. Dressing and presenting as such is no different from what cis people do. If I'm a woman and I want to be perceived as a woman then I do the things a woman of my culture does.

You could be in a society where everyone is naked and there's no such thing as makeup and "chick stuff"..but whatever women in that society do, you would do it if you identify as female.

Every culture has male and female signifiers. Transitioning is simply moving in line with those signifiers as to match what's inside and as a means of survival


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's very simple and you're making it far more complex than necessary.


I disagree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> A trans woman isn't trans just because they want to wear a dress or have long hair. They identify as female. Regardless of what we think a female is, that's how they identify. Dressing and presenting as such is no different from what cis people do. If I'm a woman and I want to be perceived as a woman then I do the things a woman of my culture does.


This is the part I don't assume translates. Other cultures have alternate societal roles, but I don't think it's fair to say that all other cultures have this description of identity. I don't think there's any reason to assume other cultures share our obsession with identity. Another culture might have people who break out of their born-with-biology-informed roles, but I've not ever come across anything that suggests it's handled the way we do it - with the suggestion that there's an inner "self" being expressed, with the medical/surgical procedures attached, puberty blocking etc., and constant arguing about pronouns and bathrooms.

I'm not suggesting that other cultures don't have trans people by some definition. What I _am_ suggesting is that their relationship with what gender is in the first place could be different enough to make that distinction mean something very different - and that it's worth exploring that instead of just assuming it's all exactly the same as how we think of it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I disagree. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> 
> 
> Another culture might have people who break out of their born-with-biology-informed roles, but I've not ever come across anything that suggests it's handled the way we do it - with the suggestion that there's an inner "self" being expressed, with the medical/surgical procedures attached, puberty blocking etc., and constant arguing about pronouns and bathrooms.



Lots of other cultures are actually far more civilized on the matter. The reason it's a big deal to us is because stupidity and homophobia have turned it into a bigger issue than needed.

There's no constant arguing about pronouns. The only people arguing are those who want to justify their bigotry. There's no conversation about bathrooms among people with sense. The only people concerned about, again, are idiots.

We're also, as a society, more advanced on the medical and science front..so trans people have access to hormone blockers, surgeries, etc. Not to mention as a trans person, blending in with society is a means of survival. "Passing" isn't just a goal but a means to escape persecution and harm.

If our society treated trans people like other societies then there would probably be less emphasis on passing because it wouldn't be the difference between a normal life and one of ridicule and death threats.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

The bathrooms and pronouns thing was meant just to keep the comment light rather than focusing entirely on the medical aspect.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> "Passing" isn't just a goal but a means to escape persecution and harm.


This is kind of my point. We have these distinctions - we have the idea that "gender" however you define it must be affirmed with surgery for some reason, we have the idea of "passing", we have people pretty regularly debating the meanings of these things - and I think those are distinct to what we're observing happening in our own culture, and they're meaningful details in each cultural variant of this. Each one of these cultural takes understands it very differently - in terms of what it means, in terms of it's role or purpose, in terms of whether or not there's a sexual element, in terms of acceptance, in term of whether or not we try to continue to constrain to a sex-based binary, in terms of language and categorization, etc.

I'm obviously no authority on these things, but I imagine that the experience of say a two-sprit person or a hijra person (I have no idea if that's a culturally sensitive word or not) is very different than the experience of a western trans person. And a lot of these conversations tend to revolve around the experience of the person, doesn't it?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The bathrooms and pronouns thing was meant just to keep the comment light rather than focusing entirely on the medical aspect.
> 
> 
> This is kind of my point. We have these distinctions - we have the idea that "gender" however you define it must be affirmed with surgery for some reason, we have the idea of "passing", we have people pretty regularly debating the meanings of these things - and I think those are distinct to what we're observing happening in our own culture, and they're meaningful details in each cultural variant of this. Each one of these cultural takes understands it very differently - in terms of what it means, in terms of it's role or purpose, in terms of whether or not there's a sexual element, in terms of acceptance, in term of whether or not we try to continue to constrain to a sex-based binary, in terms of language and categorization, etc.
> ...



What I'm saying is..those people of those cultures don't focus so much on surgeries and whatnot because in our culture bigotry is a much more deadly thing.

In our culture, failing to fit into society can mean ridicule, persecution, and/or death. We don't allow people to just be who they want. "Men in dresses" are a topic because of bigotry. Homophobia is so out of hand that even the topic of trans people tends to focus on trans women, because bigots envision a manly looking man wearing women's clothes trying to do evil things. No one even mentions trans men and whatnot because, as usual, the focus is on men being some sort of sexual predator.

In other cultures, being trans is seen as a common thing and just a thing that happens. In our culture it's wrapped up in nonsense and sexuality.

A trans person's identity isn't affirmed by surgery. There are lots of trans people who don't want surgery. The thing is, many who want to fully transition want to do so because it means blending in and blending in means safety. In our culture "the surgery" is a big thing, again, because of bigotry. Trans people often get asked by cis people if they've gotten the surgery because cis people don't even get that it's not about that. There's so much misinformation and ignorance regarding the issue that the entire trans issue has become it's own monster.

If our society saw gender as other cultures there wouldn't be so much sensationalism over the issue. Hell that's why this entire thread exists. Because a trans person decided to answer questions so cis people could get accurate info because rarely do they ever get that chance.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

I don't know that I believe our culture's bigotry is deadlier than others - maybe that's a bias on my part coming from Canada, where you can more or less get away with doing or being anything you want, and the worst you'll get is some unpleasant internet comments. I mean, we do sort of just allow people to be who they want. Gender is, as far as is relevant to this discussion, just a self-report that nobody is allowed to contest. While not every comment here has been 1000% supportive, nobody has said "no you're not what you say" or "you can't/shouldn't do that", etc. (and anyone who does gets some significant push-back).



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Hell that's why this entire thread exists. Because a trans person decided to answer questions so cis people could get accurate info because rarely do they ever get that chance.


Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that. And I continue to prod because I want to understand. Arguably, I learned a bit this morning about a handful of other cultural gender ideas. I continue to wish that more of these questions were answered by OP rather than people speaking on other people's behalf.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> A trans person's identity isn't affirmed by surgery. There are lots of trans people who don't want surgery. The thing is, many who want to fully transition want to do so because it means blending in and blending in means safety. In our culture "the surgery" is a big thing, again, because of bigotry. Trans people often get asked by cis people if they've gotten the surgery because cis people don't even get that it's not about that. There's so much misinformation and ignorance regarding the issue that the entire trans issue has become it's own monster.


I've heard people say that that's exactly what the surgery is about though. If the goal is safety, would not the safest thing to do be to do nothing at all? Would blending in not be the easiest if you conformed to what you're already physically closest to? I suspect that the reasoning/motivation behind taking that route is going to vary dramatically depending on who you ask. If I'm wrong, I'm glad to be wrong, but the answer to every question can't be to just say "because bigots" and stop the conversation there.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I believe our culture's bigotry is deadlier than others - maybe that's a bias on my part coming from Canada, where you can more or less get away with doing or being anything you want, and the worst you'll get is some unpleasant internet comments. I mean, we do sort of just allow people to be who they want. Gender is, as far as is relevant to this discussion, just a self-report that nobody is allowed to contest. While not every comment here has been 1000% supportive, nobody has said "no you're not what you say" or "you can't/shouldn't do that", etc. (and anyone who does gets some significant push-back).



https://theconversation.com/transgender-hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise-even-in-canada-121541


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I believe our culture's bigotry is deadlier than others - maybe that's a bias on my part coming from Canada, where you can more or less get away with doing or being anything you want, and the worst you'll get is some unpleasant internet comments. I mean, we do sort of just allow people to be who they want. Gender is, as far as is relevant to this discussion, just a self-report that nobody is allowed to contest. While not every comment here has been 1000% supportive, nobody has said "no you're not what you say" or "you can't/shouldn't do that", etc. (and anyone who does gets some significant push-back).
> 
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that. And I continue to prod because I want to understand. Arguably, I learned a bit this morning about a handful of other cultural gender ideas. I continue to wish that more of these questions were answered by OP rather than people speaking on other people's behalf.
> ...



One, you as a cis person can't really speak on whether or not bigotry is dangerous to trans people. That's like a white person saying that racism isn't a big deal, how would they know?

Secondly what you're essentially saying is "Isn't it safer to just be miserable and suicidal?". That's what doing nothing at all is. Being completely miserable and never being who they truly are. Nobody wants to live like that.

Like I said, this entire thing is simple and you're making it more difficult than it needs to be.

People want to be happy. Some people are not happy in their own bodies and they take the steps necessary to be happy. Bigotry stands in opposition of the happiness of others and ends up convoluting simple situations. Without bigotry that happiness would be a lot easier to obtain.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

MaxOfMetal said:


> https://theconversation.com/transgender-hate-crimes-are-on-the-rise-even-in-canada-121541


I stand corrected, thanks for that.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> One, you as a cis person can't really speak on whether or not bigotry is dangerous to trans people.


Aren't you also?



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Secondly what you're essentially saying is "Isn't it safer to just be miserable and suicidal?".


I'm not SAYING anything, I'm asking a question. At no point during this conversation has the implication been that trans people are inherently suicidal, but if that's what we're going with then sure. Obviously I would prefer that people do whatever they feel they need to do to avoid killing themselves. Now what _you're_ saying is that trans people are inherently suicidal and the reason is entirely that people are bigoted - and I think there's far too much to unpack there for a quick response.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I stand corrected, thanks for that.
> 
> 
> Aren't you also?
> ...



You are reaching way too hard.

For one, out of the two of us one is clearly more knowledgeable about trans issues and has had first hand experience with any of it.

Secondly, by asking wouldn't it be safer for them to not do anything you are essentially asking if they'd be safer just being miserable. The main point in transitioning is to align the outside with the inside. If trans people were happy as-is this wouldn't even be an issue. Depression, suicidal tendencies, etc have been discussed multiple times in this thread. It's pretty much common sense that a person who feels they aren't allowed to be who they truly are would more than likely be rather depressed.

Show me where I said that trans people are suicidal because people are bigoted. Go ahead and quote where I said that. For some reason you keep reading what you want to read instead of what's there.

Again..this is all very simple. I have no idea why you keep trying to get overly philosophical and make it more complicated than it needs to be.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> If I'm wrong, I'm glad to be wrong, but the answer to every question can't be to just say "because bigots" and stop the conversation there.



In my experiences pretty much the entire reason that transgender people in America (I don't have any experience with trans people in other countries) have any issues at all is almost 100% based on bigotry. If I wasn't afraid of how people would react and the consequences including possible violence and the possibility of disowned by almost everyone I knew I would have come out earlier. 

I don't even bother with correcting people who misgender me in public and if I'm with my friends I tell them not to either because I don't want to cause a problem or risk getting harassed or beaten up. I don't really ever think I'm going to be 100% passable because I'm reasonably tall and skinny with no curves and I have giant gross man shoulders. If I go out dressed fem with leggings or a dress on or something most people are pretty cool about it and gender me correctly even if they clock me. Other people (usually older people) make it an issue for no reason and treat me like shit on purpose. 

For example I was picking up a refill of hormones last night and the pharmacist complimented me on my lashes and eyes were and asked me if I get them done somewhere and I told her no and she was really nice. As soon as she went and got my pills and saw that I was picking up HRT her whole attitude changed and she did everything she could to address me with male pronouns as many times as possible. All she had to do was say have a good night and she went out of her way to be mean to me. 

I also have it really easy compared to most other trans people and I'm really lucky that I've only lost a few family members and most of my male friends and that I didn't get kicked out of the place I'm living.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Secondly, by asking wouldn't it be safer for them to not do anything you are essentially asking if they'd be safer just being miserable.


When you phrase it that way.... technically yes. I'm not saying it's better overall, but if the goal is safety from the abuse of others, then yes, technically it would be safer to be miserable. I'm not advocating for it, but it doesn't make it less true.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> For some reason you keep reading what you want to read instead of what's there.


I think you and I have a lot more in common than you'd like to admit.



SexHaver420 said:


> If I wasn't afraid of how people would react and the consequences including possible violence and the possibility of disowned by almost everyone I knew I would have come out earlier.


That perfectly fair. My real question though is if that fear wasn't there - if acceptance was just a given - do you think you'd still feel driven to the same kind of physical transition?

Maybe a different phrasing -> In an ideal world, if you take all bigotry out of the picture, how different then is your path to whatever makes you comfortable?


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> That perfectly fair. My real question though is if that fear wasn't there - if acceptance was just a given - do you think you'd still feel driven to the same kind of physical transition?
> 
> Maybe a different phrasing -> In an ideal world, if you take all bigotry out of the picture, how different then is your path to whatever makes you comfortable?



If the fear wasn't there I'd still feel driven to physically transition. I have no idea how to explain what it's like to look in the mirror and see the wrong person looking back at you. It really fucks you up if you have to look at it every day. People being accepting doesn't make the dysphoria go away. I don't think it ever goes away. It just gets easier to manage and things like social transition and hormones and surgeries make that easier for people.

If every cis person had to experience a few days of horrible dysphoria that's driving them towards suicide trans rights would be a given and there wouldn't need to be a discussion.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

I guess I'm trying to find the distinction between it being an internal vs. external motivation, and your comment clears a good bit of that up, at least as far as your own experience goes.



SexHaver420 said:


> I have no idea how to explain what it's like to look in the mirror and see the wrong person looking back at you.


The best analogue I can think of (and it's probably not a great comparison) is that I dropped a ton of weight once in a short period of time. From about 310lbs to just over 140lbs. When I did this, there was a period of time where I'd see 140lbs me and still see a fat guy. The weirdest sensation is trying to walk through a space and the mental math as to whether or not you will fit somewhere just doesn't add up. You "know" that you've always taken up x amount of space, so you still give yourself that much room - even though in actuality there's enough room for twice that.

Does that sound like there's any parallel? I know it's not really comparable, but it's the best I can think of at the moment.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I guess I'm trying to find the distinction between it being an internal vs. external motivation, and your comment clears a good bit of that up, at least as far as your own experience goes.
> 
> 
> The best analogue I can think of (and it's probably not a great comparison) is that I dropped a ton of weight once in a short period of time. From about 310lbs to just over 140lbs. When I did this, there was a period of time where I'd see 140lbs me and still see a fat guy. The weirdest sensation is trying to walk through a space and the mental math as to whether or not you will fit somewhere just doesn't add up. You "know" that you've always taken up x amount of space, so you still give yourself that much room - even though in actuality there's enough room for twice that.
> ...



I'm pretty sure the vast majority of trans people including the few that I know would think there's an internal motivation. You can't turn somebody trans or straight or gay or whatever. They just are that way. Being trans fucking sucks and I wouldn't wish it upon anyone. 

I have a bit of a parallel with the taking up a certain amount of space part. I had to change how I lift and move things because now I have boobs that get in the way and I was flat for 27 years. I reached across my desk earlier to grab something and hit myself in the boob. I'm still getting used to it.


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## lewis (Jan 19, 2021)

Another intense question. Apologies if it drives a little to close to the nerve.

Basically do you think it's the brain that is wrong/broken or the body being wrong/need changing, in these instances?.


I've thought this before but never knew anyone or come into contact with anyone who is trans, to really ask the deep questions about it and try to learn.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

lewis said:


> Another intense question. Apologies if it drives a little to close to the nerve.
> 
> Basically do you think it's the brain that is wrong/broken or the body being wrong/need changing, in these instances?.
> 
> ...



I don't know for sure but I think it could be either. If I was just born with the same brain and a female body I'd be happy. If I was born with a more stereotypical male type brain into my pre transition body I think I'd probably be happy too. 

Doctors and scientists and stuff still don't know what makes people trans. They just know that it's a thing that happens sometimes. 

We have something in common about not really coming into contact with trans people though. I have no trans feminine friends or acquaintances and the only trans people I know are guys and they both live far away because they moved for school. I hopefully get to meet a friend of a friend tomorrow who's a trans girl that's super early into her transition and I think it'll be really cool to finally be able to talk to someone like me because I've never had that.


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## Randy (Jan 19, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I don't know for sure but I think it could be either. If I was just born with the same brain and a female body I'd be happy. If I was born with a more stereotypical male type brain into my pre transition body I think I'd probably be happy too.
> 
> Doctors and scientists and stuff still don't know what makes people trans. They just know that it's a thing that happens sometimes.
> 
> We have something in common about not really coming into contact with trans people though. I have no trans feminine friends or acquaintances and the only trans people I know are guys and they both live far away because they moved for school. I hopefully get to meet a friend of a friend tomorrow who's a trans girl that's super early into her transition and I think it'll be really cool to finally be able to talk to someone like me because I've never had that.



You have the best avatar on this website.


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## lewis (Jan 19, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I don't know for sure but I think it could be either. If I was just born with the same brain and a female body I'd be happy. If I was born with a more stereotypical male type brain into my pre transition body I think I'd probably be happy too.
> 
> Doctors and scientists and stuff still don't know what makes people trans. They just know that it's a thing that happens sometimes.
> 
> We have something in common about not really coming into contact with trans people though. I have no trans feminine friends or acquaintances and the only trans people I know are guys and they both live far away because they moved for school. I hopefully get to meet a friend of a friend tomorrow who's a trans girl that's super early into her transition and I think it'll be really cool to finally be able to talk to someone like me because I've never had that.



Yeah it's really curious for sure.

Regards to that last paragraph, that's excellent news tbh. Having mutual ground with someone else in the same position is probably going to be super helpful.
Fingers crossed it goes well for you and you get a proper friend for life.

Mad respect for even putting this thread up tbh. From my perspective it's super helpful as I can ask the questions that I've never been able to before now.
I'm 31 now and with every year that passes I get more acepting of everyone aswell as super interested in things like this.
Sadly, 19/20 year old me would have been judgemental and a dumb ass. I wouldn't have come in here with hate because I've never been one for that, but I would have ignorantly judged quietly to myself and got it all hilariously wrong.
Thank God we learn and grow as we start getting older. (Well most of us)

I had a good mate I was in a band with have a best friend who had full blown gender reassignment surgery and went from having a male body/female mind - to that being perfectly aligned.
I never got to meet this friend of a friend though so like I say had no way of getting basic answers upto now.
My mate was super cool about his long term besty physically changing like this though and well supportive. 
Such a nice dude. I miss that lad actually. He moved back to where his family all live, about 4 odd hours from me. Haven't seen him in years.


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## BornToLooze (Jan 19, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> That's like a white person saying that racism isn't a big deal, how would they know?



Other than the fact that white people can be a victim of racism too, but this isn't the thread for that.



lewis said:


> Mad respect for even putting this thread up tbh. From my perspective it's super helpful as I can ask the questions that I've never been able to before now.



But ya, I appreciate this thread too. I was kinda questioning my sexuality since I was a teenager, so I never cared if somebody was gay or a lesbian, you do you, but I thought trans people were fucked up in the head and never got all the people that were nonbinary, genderfluid. It wasn't until this thread that I realized there's more to it than boys have a penis, girls have a vagina.

So thank y'all for helping me understand it.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

Randy said:


> You have the best avatar on this website.



I know.



lewis said:


> stuff



I'm glad you appreciate the thread and stuff. Feel free to ask more questions if you have any or pm me if you want.
I hope I make a trans friend because it'd be nice to be around someone that understands what I went through. My sisters boyfriend is one of the people that's most supportive of me even though I barely see him because his best friend is trans and they grew up in the middle of nowhere super conservative Idaho and he understands all the shit that trans people have to go through. We were just hanging out drinking beer once and he put on Transgender Dysphoria Blues by Against Me cuz the singer is trans and he likes punk music. I was like  even though I don't care for them that much. I'd to think once someone gets to know a trans person they realize that most of their preconceptions about them are wrong and that they're just normal people trying to be happy like everyone else.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 19, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> Other than the fact that white people can be a victim of racism too, but this isn't the thread for that.


Nah....let's not attempt that. Don't be that person. It's never a good look


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## BornToLooze (Jan 19, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> that they're just normal people trying to be happy like everyone else.



Dude, being normal is vastly overrated. I tried being "normal", and I don't have near the stuff going on that you do, and I was goddamned depressed. Embrace your weirdness, there's enough of everybody else, just be you.

EDIT: Is it ok to call trans people dude? I've always used it regardless of who I'm talking to.



DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Nah....let's not attempt that. Don't be that person. It's never a good look



Ya, I've had my experiences and started to type up a reply, but it's a sensitive issue and I've been drinking.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> Dude, being normal is vastly overrated. I tried being "normal", and I don't have near the stuff going on that you do, and I was goddamned depressed. Embrace your weirdness, there's enough of everybody else, just be you.
> 
> EDIT: Is it ok to call trans people dude? I've always used it regardless of who I'm talking to.



I've always felt weird and out of place and not normal and now that I feel normal I'm way happier 

I don't really mind being called dude because my best friend always calls me that because "I'm from California and everyone is a dude there". I'm sure that there are some trans people that don't like it but it doesn't really bother me.


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## BornToLooze (Jan 19, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I've always felt weird and out of place and not normal and now that I feel normal I'm way happier
> 
> I don't really mind being called dude because my best friend always calls me that because "I'm from California and everyone is a dude there". I'm sure that there are some trans people that don't like it but it doesn't really bother me.



Ya, that's why I kinda get the trans thing now. I was an emo kid in high school, then a long haired metal head in college, and got tired of the emo fag and long haired fag, so started going along to get along, and then one day I just woke up and realized my fucks to give are in the same place your "normal" brain is.

I still don't really get the identifying with a certain gender thing, but I hope you get to the point where I am. I identify as me, and I'm a grown up, I can do whatever the fuck I want to, fuck anyone who doesn't like it.


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## TedEH (Jan 19, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> Dude, being normal is vastly overrated


I kinda feel like this whole topic is basically philosophical rabbit holes on top of philosophical rabbit holes. The argument could be made that there isn't really a "normal" at all. I'd be willing to bet anyone could find some way that they're not "normal".


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I kinda feel like this whole topic is basically philosophical rabbit holes on top of philosophical rabbit holes. The argument could be made that there isn't really a "normal" at all. I'd be willing to bet anyone could find some way that they're not "normal".



Not everything needs to be interpreted philosophically and I think there has probably been enough philosophy stuff in the thread. Big words are scary


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## BornToLooze (Jan 19, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I kinda feel like this whole topic is basically philosophical rabbit holes on top of philosophical rabbit holes. The argument could be made that there isn't really a "normal" at all. I'd be willing to bet anyone could find some way that they're not "normal".



Nah, normies are the ones who only care about something when it's fashionable to like it on social media.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 20, 2021)

I think you're all a bunch of sickos and y'all need to praise Jesus.


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## lewis (Jan 20, 2021)




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## BornToLooze (Jan 20, 2021)




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## BlackMastodon (Jan 21, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I kinda feel like this whole topic is basically philosophical rabbit holes on top of philosophical rabbit holes. The argument could be made that there isn't really a "normal" at all. I'd be willing to bet anyone could find some way that they're not "normal".


It's not even all that philosophical, nobody is "normal" in that we all have our unique quirks, or kinks, or hobbies. Clinging to "normal" is what makes people afraid of things they don't understand. It's not hard to accept when you realize that every person is different and what's "normal" for one is totally backwards for another.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Jan 22, 2021)

IDK what you creeps are talking about. I'm the only normal person around here it seems.


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## SexHaver420 (Jan 22, 2021)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> IDK what you creeps are talking about. I'm the only normal person around here it seems.



Hard agree.


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## BornToLooze (Feb 4, 2021)

So as a dude that's still into emo, OP or Drakker...just curious, but, have you ever been messing around with makeup, get done, and look at yourself and you fucking nailed it, but you aren't sure what you did to nail it?


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Feb 4, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> So as a dude that's still into emo, OP or Drakker...just curious, but, have you ever been messing around with makeup, get done, and look at yourself and you fucking nailed it, but you aren't sure what you did to nail it?



Nah. When I'm doing makeup it's for a specific reason so my process is pretty much repeated each time. When I first started I'd end up with cool stuff but I was paying close attention because I was trying to learn things..so even if I didn't know exactly, or I just got lucky, I had a pretty good idea of what I did.

I dunno. Makeup was never really a "fun" thing for me. It had a purpose so each time I do it, I'm pretty direct in method.


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## SexHaver420 (Feb 5, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> So as a dude that's still into emo, OP or Drakker...just curious, but, have you ever been messing around with makeup, get done, and look at yourself and you fucking nailed it, but you aren't sure what you did to nail it?



I'm not very good at makeup because I've only been doing it for like 6 months and the only things I can really do decently now is my eyeliner/mascara or painting my nails but when I think my makeup looks good I'm like    . Some of the girls at work told me I do a good job though and that they're jealous of my lashes.


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## BornToLooze (Feb 6, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I'm not very good at makeup because I've only been doing it for like 6 months and the only things I can really do decently now is my eyeliner/mascara or painting my nails but when I think my makeup looks good I'm like    . Some of the girls at work told me I do a good job though and that they're jealous of my lashes.



I mean, I'm a dude that didn't understand a difference in boys have a penis and girls have a vagina and gender stuff until this thread, but, you know emo...I got grounded for stealing some of my mom's eyeliner. Because of Halloween I got kinda good at makeup, and the other day just trying to do eyeliner and eye shadow, and I nailed the look I've been trying to get.

But you want to talk about lashes...my wife is very much you do you (obviously, because I wear makeup more than she does), but the last time I wore mascara, it was one of those times she low key hated me. Apparently my lashes are too pretty for a guy to have.

But I feel you, my makeup skills aren't that good either...but painting my nails, Ray Charles could probably paint nails as good as I can.


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## SexHaver420 (Feb 6, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> Stuff



I just got super lucky and my best friend went to school for hair/makeup/nails and everything and even though she didn't decide to do that for her job she can just teach me everything I could need to know. She showed me the way she paints nails and I've been copying it and each time I get better.


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## BornToLooze (Feb 6, 2021)

Ya, I'm kinda screwed on the makeup, I've barely figured out how to do, but I use it more than my wife does, so I have to help her. But the thing is, for the most part, I"m not using makeup to look pretty, I'm trying to look about half dead. And there are enough dude makeup tutorials on youtube, and I've followed some of them, and I'm not going to lie, I looked so hot I'd fuck myself, but that's not what I'm going for.


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## SexHaver420 (Feb 6, 2021)

BornToLooze said:


> I'm trying to look about half dead. I looked so hot I'd fuck myself, but that's not what I'm going for.



We should do each others corpsepaint and make a black metal band and I'm not even kidding. I'll do vocals and guitar or bass and you can do the other and we can program drums if needed


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 6, 2021)

Do you think that gender is fluid or is in some or any ways not directly related to anatomy?

Is there a category for gender neutrality or multiple genders in the transgender world, if I may presume such a description for conversation’s sake?

Like for example a man or woman feeling like a man or woman sometimes, and others times not wanting to be either, or not wanting identity to be defined by gender, as it can have so much association (unfortunately some negative) with predefined attitudes, prejudices and societal roles or expectations for example.


I’m not entirely sure what this question means but it’s something I’ve wondered about with an honest curiosity about gender roles and gender identity.

I understand society around the world is becoming more accepting to other genders than in the recent past, and am curious about the roles of gender in society and the existence of more than 2 genders in various different cultures in the world, and also wonder what you think about that?

Also not knowing much about transgender, what does it really mean? Are you getting surgery to change your anatomy and take hormones?

I knew a couple once who said they were transgender and they looked like a str8 couple except that the man identified as a woman and the woman identified as a man. I would have just assumed they had non-traditional male female dominant roles, but it’s not really my place to ask other people’s business as I’m kind of a live and let live kind of person. Generally speaking, I think people should be able to do whatever they want to be happy as long as it directly harms no one.


Thanks for taking the time to read and consider my questions, as well as posting this topic!


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## SexHaver420 (Feb 6, 2021)

Wuuthrad said:


> Do you think that gender is fluid or is in some or any ways not directly related to anatomy?
> 
> Is there a category for gender neutrality or multiple genders in the transgender world, if I may presume such a description for conversation’s sake?
> 
> ...



Gender can be fluid for some people. I don't know why that is and I know that mine isn't fluid but I know some people who's gender is fluid. 

There are people who are Agender (don't identify with a gender) Bigender (identify with two or more genders) etc. Some people are really gender fluid and sometimes they're a guy one day and a woman the next and stuff like that. I'm a binary trans person which means I'm boring and identify with one gender though. 

There have been societies that have had people of more than two genders since there were societies and I think it's really cool. A bunch of Native American tribes had/have more than 2 genders but then White people kind of fucked that up with the whole genocide and destruction of culture thing they did. 

Being transgender just means you don't identify with the gender the doctors assigned you at birth. For example Transgender/Non Binary/Genderfluid/Genderqueer people all fall under the Trans umbrella even though they're different identities. The doctor decided I was supposed to be a boy so I had male roles forced on me by society since I was born.

I've been taking hormones for a few months. I'm planning on getting facial feminization surgery if I don't feel like the hormones feminized my face enough after a few years. I already look significantly more feminine than I used to though. I'm also 100% sure I'm going to get a tracheal shave to make my adams apple way smaller. I'm not sure if I'm going to get full gender reassignment surgery but the longer I'm on HRT (hormone replacement therapy) the more wrong stuff down there starts to feel. I'm 95% sure I'm going to get an Orchiectomy (removal of testicles) though because that way I won't really make any testosterone and won't have to take blockers because the one I'm on sucks.

Regarding the couple you saw they might have both been transgender. Just so you know tran people don't like being referred to as a man who identifies as a woman or a woman who identifies as a man and stuff like that. Even they're not passable at all and they tell you that they're a woman even though you think they look like a guy they're still a woman.

I know someone who's trans and on hormones and still has her facial hair and presents male in pubic 100% of the time. She's doing it because she's not out to very many people and is still trying to figure out how to come out to her family. She also knows that her work isn't accepting of trans people so she's still presenting male until she finds a new job.

I also think that people should be able to do what they like as long as it doesn't harm anyone. If I lived in a place where I wasn't allowed to transition and it was illegal or a shitty state in the US that makes you go through a bunch of therapy and medical gatekeeping to get on HRT I'd be dead right now. I just don't understand how so many people have an issue with people like me being comfortable and happy in our skin.


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## SexHaver420 (Feb 6, 2021)

Also for anyone interested the second half of this video does a really good job of explaining what it feels like to be transgender pre transition. They put a lot of the stuff I've felt my whole life like the dissociation and not knowing who I am into words and did it much more eloquently than I'd ever be able to.


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## Wuuthrad (Feb 6, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> Gender can be fluid for some people. I don't know why that is and I know that mine isn't fluid but I know some people who's gender is fluid.
> 
> There are people who are Agender (don't identify with a gender) Bigender (identify with two or more genders) etc. Some people are really gender fluid and sometimes they're a guy one day and a woman the next and stuff like that. I'm a binary trans person which means I'm boring and identify with one gender though.
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for sharing this! Your detailed and intelligent response is very helpful for me to understand this issue and as a result hopefully be a responsible and respectful person.

I hope that there is more acceptance and understanding from society as a whole in the future re. these issues, and I feel you are contributing to this in a positive way by sharing your story.


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## SexHaver420 (Feb 6, 2021)

https://media.tenor.com/images/25a588b4021faad3c49f4eb2e4b41255/tenor.gif


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## BornToLooze (Feb 8, 2021)

Wuuthrad said:


> I knew a couple once who said they were transgender and they looked like a str8 couple except that the man identified as a woman and the woman identified as a man. I would have just assumed they had non-traditional male female dominant roles, but it’s not really my place to ask other people’s business as I’m kind of a live and let live kind of person. Generally speaking, I think people should be able to do whatever they want to be happy as long as it directly harms no one.



I kinda get it, mine and my wife's crazy kinda matches up. We still do the normal gender roles, I make the money and kill the bugs, she cooks and cleans. But on the flip side, I'll bitch about not being able to find my favorite hoodie, and she'll tell me where it is if I take off her favorite shirt.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 15, 2021)

Bump


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## possumkiller (Apr 15, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> Bump


Will you do free shipping?


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 15, 2021)

possumkiller said:


> Will you do free shipping?



Depends on what I was shipping and how much it would cost me. If it was cheap and I'd still make a bit of $ I'll probably do free shipping.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Apr 15, 2021)

Good stuff in this thread. As someone who is accepting of all differences I still sometimes find a voice that sometimes says things internally that are off color and just not me. I think when we expose ourselves to adversity and really listen to what people have to say. It helps us break down those walls better.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 15, 2021)

Dumple Stilzkin said:


> Good stuff in this thread. As someone who is accepting of all differences I still sometimes find a voice that sometimes says things internally that are off color and just not me. I think when we expose ourselves to adversity and really listen to what people have to say. It helps us break down those walls better.



I live in Spokane so pm me if you wanna maybe meet up and get some drinks or something sometime.


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## Dumple Stilzkin (Apr 16, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I live in Spokane so pm me if you wanna maybe meet up and get some drinks or something sometime.


I will probably take you up on the offer once things get more back to normal.


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## possumkiller (Apr 16, 2021)




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## narad (Apr 16, 2021)

Hey Jeff VanderMeer! I'm glad there's a progressively sensible person behind the Annihilation series.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 16, 2021)

All of these new anti trans bills people are trying to pass are all complete bullshit like every other anti trans bill ever. Imagine hating children who are different than you so much you'd willingly deny them life saving healthcare and make molesting them legal. It's completely insane and I hope anyone who votes for or supports any of them is a terrible person. 

I'm not a fan of any politicians really but right wing ones are


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## BlackMastodon (Apr 16, 2021)

I would love to watch some ultra-conservative Floridian dig themselves deeper and deeper while trying to defend this bill. What the fuck is wrong with that state as a whole?


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 16, 2021)

BlackMastodon said:


> I would love to watch some ultra-conservative Floridian dig themselves deeper and deeper while trying to defend this bill. What the fuck is wrong with that state as a whole?



Ultra conservatives all seem to either be sexual predators and/or in the closet so they probably wouldn't have an issue trying to defend it lol


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## spudmunkey (Apr 16, 2021)

Ok, so...the thing is, I'm sure nobody is expecting teachers or coaches to so these exams, but a pediatrician/doctor, right? Like a vaccination record. But yet THAT'S a thing that people keep arguing against in memes. The right can't meme, but the left can jump to just as many odd gas-lighting conclusions.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 16, 2021)

spudmunkey said:


> Ok, so...the thing is, I'm sure nobody is expecting teachers or coaches to so these exams, but a pediatrician/doctor, right? Like a vaccination record. But yet THAT'S a thing that people keep arguing against in memes. The right can't meme, but the left can jump to just as many odd gas-lighting conclusions.



No one needs to be looking at childrens genitals besides the kid they belong to and medical professionals in case there is an actual medical issue. Wanting to play sports isn't a medical problem. Trans kids need left alone and should just be allowed to kid stuff like playing sports and not have to worry if someone is gonna force the kid to expose themselves to an adult regardless of who it is unless its medically necessary.


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## Wuuthrad (Apr 16, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> No one needs to be looking at childrens genitals besides the kid they belong to and medical professionals in case there is an actual medical issue. Wanting to play sports isn't a medical problem. Trans kids need left alone and should just be allowed to kid stuff like playing sports and not have to worry if someone is gonna force the kid to expose themselves to an adult regardless of who it is unless its medically necessary.



I guess I really don’t understand- if a kid is to be left alone to “normal kids stuff” how is sexual identity a “normal” kids activity? 

Also isn't there a legitimate concern of an anatomical male (for lack of better term) having a distinct advantage in athletics?

I recall reading about sexual predation amongst men identifying as Trans women or whatever its called, but that was an adult problem. 

I guess a bigger question might be can you really separate sexuality from gender? And why is gender identity an issue for children? Where did they learn this? 

School sex education was really good when was in school- but since that time its gone downhill thanks in part to abstinence education and other r-wing nut job ideas...


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 16, 2021)

Wuuthrad said:


> how is sexual identity a “normal” kids activity?


Please don't conflate gender identity with sexual identity, but even with sexual identity you've got kids developing crushes and talking about that sort of thing even in elementary school or sooner. There are plenty of kids who figure out gender stuff well before puberty hits too - and more who might, if we did a better job talking about this.



> Also isn't there a legitimate concern of an anatomical male (for lack of better term) having a distinct advantage in athletics?


Not post-HRT.



> I recall reading about sexual predation amongst men identifying as Trans women or whatever its called, but that was an adult problem.


https://time.com/4314896/transgender-bathroom-bill-male-predators-argument/
https://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/politics-government/article70255967.html
https://www.npr.org/2016/05/15/4779...-person-uses-a-public-bathroom-who-is-at-risk

The bathroom talking point is a red herring that anyone who is trans or adjacent to trans & queer folk would laugh at, if not for how absurdly scary and even dangerous using public restrooms can be for them. It's not really about making others safe (think "for the children" type arguments), it's about putting trans people in a no-win situation where they either use a bathroom illegally, or go into a different bathroom that outs them and puts them at greater risk.



> I guess a bigger question might be can you really separate sexuality from gender?


Yes. Framing sexuality in terms of gender is a linguistic construct, not a conceptual necessity. It would not surprise me if some other languages differ on this point. There are words without this framing in English as well, but they're not commonly used.



> And why is gender identity an issue for children? Where did they learn this?


It's not something you "learn". The vocabulary to express it can be, but the underlying identity is not.


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## TedEH (Apr 16, 2021)

Wuuthrad said:


> advantage in athletics?


On some level, it's just sports, so who cares? If we're talking about kids, then it literally doesn't matter any farther than having some fun and getting some exercise, and if it's adults, well, there's plenty of debate around that already but at the end of the day it's basically an entertainment industry. If we're still entertained, then the details shouldn't matter to most people.

[Edit: removed the rest, 'cause arguing semantics never goes anywhere good in threads like this]


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## narad (Apr 16, 2021)

InfinityCollision said:


> Not post-HRT.



I don't think science has a good understanding of these issues yet. While HRT seems to normalize a lot of muscle performance related issues, it's not going to undo the skeletal development that happens during puberty. For some sports (or at the highest levels, maybe almost all sports) that frame is going to play an important role.

Kind of a niche topic and I couldn't care less about the idea of records and such in competitive sports, but no doubt an important issue for those whose lives are based around it.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 16, 2021)

Just a reminder that if kids are too young to know if they're gay or trans or whatever they're too young to know if they're straight or cis.

Also HRT completely destroys your muscle mass and strength if you're on testosterone blockers and estrogen. Trans women who have been on HRT for a while have less testosterone because we have to block it for the estrogen to work better. I've lost at least a third of my physical stength and a ton of muscle mass in the past few months.

Trans masc people have a large advantage at sports vs cis women because they're on testosterone and can gain strength and muscle a lot easier. None of these shitty bills seem to address that because trans mascs are way less threatening to whatever shitty agenda those people have apparently.


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## Wuuthrad (Apr 16, 2021)

Why not conflate sexuality with gender? What am I missing here? I’ve always thought the two are intermingled, no matter what your preference.

What if I tell you I’m female, born with male anatomy, attracted to women. Does that make me a Lesbian?? Seems ridiculous. Or does it?

Also how does anyone know that anyone is “born” a certain way? Didn't they learn this concept? It seems a philosophical ideation or construct, far past the emotional and intellectual capacity of children.

What if a child were to say I’m an adult trapped in a kids body. Are we to say let them be treated as an adult, with all the same laws and responsibilities subjected to and upon them, because they were born that way? I hope not.

What I’m suggesting is sort of the concept of nature vs nurture.

If binary gender roles are inaccurate (if that's the presumption) why use them at all?

I fear that adults maybe are controlling the minds of children too much from either side of this issue whether they are trying to or not.


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## BlackMastodon (Apr 17, 2021)

Wuuthrad said:


> What if I tell you I’m female, born with male anatomy, attracted to women. Does that make me a Lesbian??


Yes. 


Wuuthrad said:


> Seems ridiculous. Or does it?


No.

I don't know why this is such a common straw to grasp for people, it's not a very difficult concept. It's like thinking that women aren't actually lesbians and are faking it because they use dildos during sex.

I do think that children/teens who identify as trans and want to undergo HRT or non-reversible procedures is a really murky area that requires a whole lot of nuance, but on the other side of that token is forcing kids to either be boys or girls. Just let kids be kids, if boys wanna wear dresses and have longer hair when they're 8 then who the fuck cares?


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## Merrekof (Apr 17, 2021)

Wuuthrad said:


> If binary gender roles are inaccurate (if that's the presumption) why use them at all?


Because it makes life easy. 2 bathrooms, male and female. 2 classes in most sports (not in motorsport, females can compete alongside men if they can). Most, if not all nations, have seperate systems for retirement funds, parentleave, income at the job,...
Personally I don't care about 2 genders and they can throw it away for all I care. Everyone should have the same rights, regardless of what's between ones legs. But can you imagine how society and law would have to change to get that far? I think we're still a loooooong way from that, considering conservative minds want to step back even further.


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## InfinityCollision (Apr 17, 2021)

narad said:


> I don't think science has a good understanding of these issues yet. While HRT seems to normalize a lot of muscle performance related issues, it's not going to undo the skeletal development that happens during puberty. For some sports (or at the highest levels, maybe almost all sports) that frame is going to play an important role.
> 
> Kind of a niche topic and I couldn't care less about the idea of records and such in competitive sports, but no doubt an important issue for those whose lives are based around it.


To my knowledge, nobody post-HRT holds any record of note. There are also women like Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand, and Francine Niyonsaba who naturally have unusual hormone levels, far above what a woman on HRT would have.

To the point of skeletal development, you're mostly incorrect - HRT does affect skeletal development. I say "mostly" because some of the effects vary with when you begin HRT. Trans women beginning HRT at later ages experience less hip development for example, but by such an age any athletic prospects are likely in their later years or passed. HRT for both trans men and women is also associated with changes in bone mass.

As far as kids go, if they're on blockers/HRT then the effects of puberty are minimized or preempted. If not then that's a more nuanced conversation given traditional sports dynamics sure, but poking around in the kid's pants isn't how we cross that bridge. Not that I think you're arguing for that, but it's where this part of the conversation originated.



Wuuthrad said:


> If binary gender roles are inaccurate (if that's the presumption) why use them at all?


Some people don't! In some cultures this even is an established and longstanding part of society, with more than two genders in common use. But for the most part modern society is patterned around the notion of a gender binary, so that's where things are and how most people think about it. Doesn't mean it has to stay that way.



> Also how does anyone know that anyone is “born” a certain way?


Probably because they were born that way, or know someone born that way and listened to them. It only seems complicated because we're taught to shove things into predetermined boxes over many years, with little or no exposure to other possibilities. Especially if it's not part of your own life.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 17, 2021)

BlackMastodon said:


> I do think that children/teens who identify as trans and want to undergo HRT or non-reversible procedures is a really murky area that requires a whole lot of nuance, but on the other side of that token is forcing kids to either be boys or girls. Just let kids be kids, if boys wanna wear dresses and have longer hair when they're 8 then who the fuck cares?



From what I understand teenagers aren't allowed to undergo surgery besides in very rare circumstances. It's hard for them to get on HRT and they usually prescribe blockers for quite a while first. They also have a bunch of counseling and other stuff closely monitored by professionals the entire time to make sure that they're actually transgender. Kids can't just tell their parents they're trans and walk into the doctor and immediately get pubery blockers/HRT/any surgery they want and I have no clue why people think it's that easy.

Anyone who thinks children shouldn't even be on blockers is a horrible person because going through the wrong puberty is some special kind of hell I'd never wish upon anyone ever. I wake up every day and my brain reminds me that my body will never be how it should be regardless of the amount of HRT and/or surgeries I have. It's basically just a life of compromise and I have to do what I can do to deal with it.


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## narad (Apr 17, 2021)

InfinityCollision said:


> To my knowledge, nobody post-HRT holds any record of note. There are also women like Caster Semenya, Dutee Chand, and Francine Niyonsaba who naturally have unusual hormone levels, far above what a woman on HRT would have.
> 
> To the point of skeletal development, you're mostly incorrect - HRT does affect skeletal development. I say "mostly" because some of the effects vary with when you begin HRT. Trans women beginning HRT at later ages experience less hip development for example, but by such an age any athletic prospects are likely in their later years or passed. HRT for both trans men and women is also associated with changes in bone mass.



Sure, there's changes to bone quality, but I was talking about the skeletal frame, and once you're a pre-HRT 20 year old in a broad-shouldered, tight-waisted body, there's not going to be an easy way to normalize that difference. Of course there are plenty of male skeletal structures that fall within the bulk of the female skeletal bell curve, but pro athletics is sampling from the extremes of that distribution. As for records, of course we're not seeing those records at the world level yet, but it seems like it'd be only a matter of time.

It was actually the whole trans activism that made me completely stop caring about track and field type things. I'm not sure why I'm supposed to care about like who the fastest 100m sprinter is, when that achievement is a primarily an outcome from freak genetics. And on top of that, why should I care if someone performs well because they have hormone levels in the .00001% naturally occurring, or because the supplement those hormones? Why do we even care about a male/female distinction in sports? Tough questions, but until pro athletes, especially born biologically female ones, become as cynical as I am about those sports, it's going to be a problem. 

Of course I hear this talking point a lot in politics where it's clearly a diversion from the daily issues that personally effect the other 99.999% of trans individuals.



InfinityCollision said:


> As far as kids go, if they're on blockers/HRT then the effects of puberty are minimized or preempted. If not then that's a more nuanced conversation given traditional sports dynamics sure, but poking around in the kid's pants isn't how we cross that bridge. Not that I think you're arguing for that, but it's where this part of the conversation originated.



Yea, I'm not tackling any of the issues that apply to HRT before or in early onset of puberty, just because that has a lot less to do with athletics, a lot more uncertainty about physiological outcomes, and a lot more to do with general ethics and policy. My point is only that a post-puberty male->female transition can still impart some athletic advantages over those born biologically female. As long as we're going to have divisions in sports, how to define those divisions is still going to be a real mess.


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## Wuuthrad (Apr 17, 2021)

I honestly have no idea what some of you are talking about, all I know is that gender discrimination sucks!

When I grew up there were boys and girls, some ppl were str8, some were gay, and it wasn't a big deal at all!

What I learned later in life was I grew up in a progressive community, and the “real world” was a lot different.

People really fucking suck sometimes!


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## TedEH (Apr 17, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> going through the wrong puberty is some special kind of hell





SexHaver420 said:


> a life of compromise


I don't mean this to sound funny, or to discredit or diminish your view of things, but this is kind of part of the human experience. It would be incorrect to assume that the average cis person doesn't also go through a difficult puberty and end up making a lot of compromises in life. Puberty _is _difficult and awkward and vulnerable and terrible. Life _is _full of compromise.



SexHaver420 said:


> Just a reminder that if kids are too young to know if they're gay or trans or whatever they're too young to know if they're straight or cis.


This is also going to sound bad, but _plenty of adults_ don't understand these things, and I don't think we've really reached a cultural consensus of any kind on these subjects, so I don't know how we could expect children to just know the nuances of societal roles vs reproductive roles vs the semantic arguments vs the presentation of "your self" vs how much the subjective experience plays into it, etc. etc.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 17, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I don't mean this to sound funny, or to discredit or diminish your view of things, but this is kind of part of the human experience. It would be incorrect to assume that the average cis person doesn't also go through a difficult puberty and end up making a lot of compromises in life. Puberty _is _difficult and awkward and vulnerable and terrible. Life _is _full of compromise.



This is something you're never going to understand if you're cis and happy with your assigned gender. Yeah puberty is hard but my second one has been 1000x easier because some parts of me finally feel right. It hasn't ruined my body and it's not going to cause me over a decade of suicidial ideaton and no self esteem which never would have happened if I had the right one in the first place. I have no idea how to explain how difficult it is to look at your body or look in the mirror and either completely disassociate or feel completely disgusted and wrong for years. 

If you wanna know what it's sort of like and you live in a place that does informed consent to get HRT you can probably get some blockers to give you dysphoria for a while and then start transitioning so you can see how horrible it is.


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## c7spheres (Apr 17, 2021)

If "they" just let eveyone play on the same teams then either way the best players will still come out as the best players. Best of the best regardless of gender or whatever.

- Generally men are stronger than women, but nobody has a problem with that one Non-trans girl that's twice the size of all the other girls because she takes after her dad. 

- It would be better for "them" to treat it by weight class. This would keep the competition more fair regardless of who's playing. Everyone knows it's no fun when someone is just kicking everyone elses ass (well, sometimes that's fun too!)


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## linthat22 (Apr 17, 2021)




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## linthat22 (Apr 17, 2021)

BlackMastodon said:


> Yes.
> 
> No.
> 
> ...



This is the most dumbest damned thing I've read ever.

If a dude is swinging a dick, but says he's a chick, does that mean if a guy sucks his dick, that the sucker isn't gay? By your logic, the answer is no.

The mental gymnastics to normalize this insanity is astounding!


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 17, 2021)

How does somebody get post number 420 and post some transphobic low effort meme lol. Hopefully you get banned because you're not very bright and didn't read any of the thread at all.


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## linthat22 (Apr 17, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> How does somebody get post number 420 and post some transphobic low effort meme lol. Hopefully you get banned because you're not very bright and didn't read any of the thread at all.



The recent garbage was enough. And with a handle like yours it makes me wonder if you're just mentally ill or a paid shill.


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## SexHaver420 (Apr 17, 2021)

linthat22 said:


> The recent garbage was enough. And with a handle like yours it makes me wonder if you're just mentally ill or a paid shill.



I have that name because it's funny. You're not contributing to the thread in any meaningful way. If you'd like to actually ask questions and try to learn you can stick around but if not please leave.


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## linthat22 (Apr 17, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I have that name because it's funny. You're not contributing to the thread in any meaningful way. If you'd like to actually ask questions and try to learn you can stick around but if not please leave.



What I'm providing to this thread is a counterpoint to your narrative. If that bothers you, why engage in conversation?

It's true that transgenderism is a mental illness and results in a 13% suicide rate, so why try and normalize something so absurd? By your logic Aerosmith's song Dude Looks Like a Lady would be 100% cancel culture material if released today. Because it might be insensitive.


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## BlackMastodon (Apr 17, 2021)

SexHaver420 said:


> I have that name because it's funny. You're not contributing to the thread in any meaningful way. If you'd like to actually ask questions and try to learn you can stick around but if not please leave.


Sorry, SexHaver420. The jig is up. They know we're Soros shills trying to turn Americans into gay frogs so China can control their brains easier through 5G.

Time to move on to the TalkBass forums.


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