# Kiesel Multiscale Aries



## posmaster (Nov 22, 2015)

Scale?


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 22, 2015)

damn.. beat me to it. I wish it was a really small fan so I could get a floyd rose with it, but looks unlikely.. well, I'm gonna probably get a DC7 multiscale along with a CT7 in 2016 then..


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## feraledge (Nov 22, 2015)

Jeff finally discovered that fanned frets are the bevel of scales.


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## TamanShud (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm gonna guess that's a 25.5 - 26.5 or maybe 25.5 - 27. Hopefully they'll be offering them for more than just the Aries models....


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## Hollowway (Nov 22, 2015)

feraledge said:


> Jeff finally discovered that fanned frets are the bevel of scales.



 Oh, how I long for rep at moments like these!

And I seriously hope it shows up on 8 strings. The more strings, the more useful multiscale is. I'd love it on the Vader, but that would take some serious hardware design.

Edit: I'll also say that I like that the design is done with the nut and fretboard ending up at the same place, so the actual FB doesn't have squared ends. That's typically what I think looks best.


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## Hyacinth (Nov 22, 2015)

TamanShud said:


> I'm gonna guess that's a 25.5 - 26.5 or maybe 25.5 - 27. Hopefully they'll be offering them for more than just the Aries models....



Definitely looks like 25.5-27. I'm SO ....ing excited for this!


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## Nlelith (Nov 22, 2015)

Multiscale... bolt-on... 7-string? Man, you can hate Jeff's addiction to bevels, but it's undeniable that he listens to customers and brings a lot of new features/products to life.

UP
Also, offset dots? Yes, please!


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## feraledge (Nov 22, 2015)

Nlelith said:


> Multiscale... bolt-on... 7-string? Man, you can hate Jeff's addiction to bevels, but it's undeniable that he listens to customers and brings a lot of new features/products to life.
> 
> UP
> Also, offset dots? Yes, please!



Mo' money, mo' tops!


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## TamanShud (Nov 22, 2015)

Nlelith said:


> Man, you can hate Jeff's addiction to bevels, but it's undeniable that he listens to customers and brings a lot of new features/products to life.



Listens to customers about everything except bevels


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## Nlelith (Nov 22, 2015)

I just hope this #MultiFever doesn't mean multi-bevel.


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## Jaxcharvel (Nov 22, 2015)

So stoked that this is happening before I order an Aries.


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## Jaxcharvel (Nov 22, 2015)

As long as the pups are slanted to compensate.


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## ovlott (Nov 22, 2015)

lol no way, just as I was considering another carvin... there go my CT7 plans.


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## erdiablo666 (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm not sold until I see a stevexc mockup


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## ramses (Nov 22, 2015)

Hahaha ... this is completely unexpected ... and amazing :-D


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## Slunk Dragon (Nov 22, 2015)

Carvin keeps making it more enticing for me to get an axe from them. Damn it!


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## hardvalve (Nov 22, 2015)

I want one for sure. Reasonable prices, and good build quality, hell yea.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Nov 22, 2015)

erdiablo666 said:


> I'm not sold until I see a stevexc mockup


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## TamanShud (Nov 22, 2015)

erdiablo666 said:


> I'm not sold until I see a stevexc mockup



"Fan stops here"


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## potatohead (Nov 22, 2015)

Offset dots, too.


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## hardvalve (Nov 22, 2015)

Amazing news. Finally a major player doing multi scale. Kudos for listening to customers.


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## Fathand (Nov 22, 2015)

Hmmm.. I wonder if that will be available on _any _bolt-ons they make. Bolt classic with a fan, anyone?


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## larry (Nov 22, 2015)

mmm-hmm


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## narad (Nov 22, 2015)

feraledge said:


> Jeff finally discovered that fanned frets are the bevel of scales.



Ha!


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## CaptainD00M (Nov 22, 2015)

erdiablo666 said:


> I'm not sold until I see a stevexc mockup



One has to invoke the god of mockups in hallowed tones bro. Like this:

'OOOOH great god of mockups, thine acolytes pray to the. Grant my eyes mockups of multi scale bevels for mine eyes to see.'

Then one must do the safety dance around the room being sure to make all the movements correctly finishing with the holy sacrifice of Snickers bar (or fitting substitute) facing east while intoning 'Stevexec, hail Stevexec'


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 22, 2015)

Finally! It looks like a 25.5 -27 fan.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 22, 2015)

You have got to love how Kiesel are bringing out a fanned fret model because of constant "MULTISCALE!" posts on their FB where the majority of those people have never even played one or even seen one in person. 

It looks like 25.5-27" since thats the usual scale they use. An 8 string would be the same unless they are doing the added string like Ibanez did and make them 25.5-27.25"

The headstock shape really works with the fan, especially since the fretboard stops at the nut.


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## mnemonic (Nov 22, 2015)

Nlelith said:


> I just hope this #MultiFever doesn't mean multi-bevel.



Bevels on bevels! 

Top stops here!

Body wood stops here!


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## olejason (Nov 22, 2015)

Dude just imagine a beveled fretboard


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## ThePIGI King (Nov 22, 2015)

Welp...there goes my dreams of a new modeler for my graduation present...*sigh* I'll be playing through a POD 2.0 until the day I die if my GAS levels for guitars can't calm themselves...

EDIT: Is that vert fret at 7 or 12? I can't tell from the ways he's holding it.


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## ferret (Nov 22, 2015)

I want to say 12th, just from that photo...


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## ThePIGI King (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm thinking it's at the 8th or 9th now actually... my mind is all thrown off by the angle of the neck and all the wood in the background!


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## feraledge (Nov 22, 2015)

olejason said:


> Dude just imagine a beveled fretboard



I don't think Jeff will make us imagine for long, but Stevexc may fill be working on filling in the blanks here.


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## gorthul (Nov 22, 2015)

olejason said:


> Dude just imagine a beveled fretboard



Can someone photoshop some bevels into the pic?


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Nov 22, 2015)

I would rock a six string fanned Carvin so hard.


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## Chokey Chicken (Nov 22, 2015)

I'm happy its fanned frets. There is zero risk to my already stretched finances. Fanned frets mean absolutely nothing to me. Lol

Edit: and given the amount of misinformation most people spew about them, I'm betting it actually means nothing to a lot of people who get it too.


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## HUGH JAYNUS (Nov 22, 2015)

> Oh, how I long for rep at moments like these!



make the "Likes" the new rep. noones been using them anyway



> And I seriously hope it shows up on 8 strings. The more strings, the more useful multiscale is. I'd love it on the Vader, but that would take some serious hardware design.



not really. just individual saddles on the bridge (like the strandberg), and individual nuts on the end of the neck.


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## Mangle (Nov 22, 2015)

These guys hardly give you a moment to catch your breath anymore! Let alone some downtime to sit and become comfortable/accustomed to your previous purchase. Blam, more goodies!!!

Personally, I'm thinking the extra long neck of a 28" scale will offset my want for the covenience of a multiscale. Can anyone who's graduated to the next of either levels confirm this hypothesis? Or are their playability factors really just off the charts? Once you make the transition?

Edit: vert fret is definitely either the 9th or 12th    lol.


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## GenghisCoyne (Nov 22, 2015)

Carvin is updating their build options often enough that there is no safe time to place an order.


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## ThePIGI King (Nov 22, 2015)

Mangle said:


> Personally, I'm thinking the extra long neck of a 28" scale will offset my want for the covenience of a multiscale. Can anyone who's graduated to the next of either levels confirm this hypothesis? Or are their playability factors really just off the charts? Once you make the transition?



I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but assuming I'm correct in my comprehension...I believe the fascination with multiscale is this: There's lots of tension on the higher strings on a 27 or 28" scale, but tons of people complain the 8th and 7th strings are too floppy if the scale isn't 27 (or whatever the players preference). Thus, mutliscales make it so that you can have the shorter scale for the higher strings, maintaining the ability to have less tension on the high strings letting you bend them, while also having enough length on the lower strings allowing for them to be less muddy, allowing string gauges to be lower than if it was on a 25.5". I think I just rambled and made no sense


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Nov 22, 2015)

7 is 25.5" to 27"
6 is 25.5" to 26.5"


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## insaneshawnlane (Nov 22, 2015)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> 7 is 25.5" to 27"
> 6 is 25.5" to 26.5"



No 8?

Edit: and seriously wtf? Every time I get a carvin, they come out with some new option afterwards. And to think I was going to try and pull some new information out of Chris H before I ordered my Aries


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## Hollowway (Nov 22, 2015)

Djimbo said:


> make the "Likes" the new rep. noones been using them anyway
> 
> 
> 
> not really. just individual saddles on the bridge (like the strandberg), and individual nuts on the end of the neck.



Thanks, Captain Spock.  

What I mean about the hardware on the Vader is that the entire guitar has to be redesigned. The body is designed around the headless hardware, so that has to be redesigned, and they will have to find someone to make the individual nuts for them. I would be exceptionally surprised if they used Strandy hardware for this, and there aren't loads of other people out there. So likely they would get one of their normal suppliers to design a line of hardware for them to accomplish this. But my point is that converting their headless line is way less likely to happen. But it would be awesome if they did!!


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## kevdes93 (Nov 22, 2015)

Really didn't think this was going to happen, he seemed really firm on not doing it but the comments on their page and comments from a certain Facebook group seem to have had some influence


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## Jake (Nov 22, 2015)

hardvalve said:


> Amazing news. Finally a major player doing multi scale. Kudos for listening to customers.



Finally a major player doing it?







but yeah this is good news


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 22, 2015)

He always said there was no plans to do one since he had to be sure it was going to be a worthwhile investment. 

Its awesome to see a high quality production fanned fret but the 27" is a big no for me.

It also looks like offset dots are going to become an option.


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## jephjacques (Nov 22, 2015)




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## HurrDurr (Nov 22, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> I'd love it on the Vader, but that would take some serious hardware design.



Not necessarily true. If you're capable of building a multi-scale neck, you can easily modify the Hipshot bridge to accommodate. Longer screws on the high end and an angled plate to match the bridge's finish placed directly in front are all that is needed to get the bridge to work _(I'm positive I've seen OAF do this)_ along with moving the locking nut further up to allow room for the slant. A small graphite nut behind the zero fret would also be needed to guide the strings to the lock.


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## TheUnvanquished (Nov 22, 2015)

I've been GASing hard for a fanned fret 6 stringer. This is great news to me!


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## Mangle (Nov 22, 2015)

ThePIGI King said:


> I think I just rambled and made no sense



Considering I've only played two diff. regular unleaded (i.e. right handed) 8 strings for maybe 5 min. a piece and never touched any kind of multi. at all, ever, I posed a hella esoteric question myself. My gas is burning more brightly everyday and is consuming my days & nights non-stop. Believe it or not, the info. and opinion you provided helped quite a bit and definitely reinforced what I already know about situations like this.... Stick with your first, best impression and go for what you know!


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## bloc (Nov 22, 2015)

Here we go...


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## Hollowway (Nov 22, 2015)

HurrDurr said:


> Not necessarily true. If you're capable of building a multi-scale neck, you can easily modify the Hipshot bridge to accommodate. Longer screws on the high end and an angled plate to match the bridge's finish placed directly in front are all that is needed to get the bridge to work _(I'm positive I've seen OAF do this)_ along with moving the locking nut further up to allow room for the slant. A small graphite nut behind the zero fret would also be needed to guide the strings to the lock.



Actually, you're absolutely right! There was either a XEN or OXC with a bridge like that. And yeah, move the but back and you can still do a zero fret. Well, bring on the scaled vaders!!


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## celticelk (Nov 22, 2015)

HurrDurr said:


> Not necessarily true. If you're capable of building a multi-scale neck, you can easily modify the Hipshot bridge to accommodate. Longer screws on the high end and an angled plate to match the bridge's finish placed directly in front are all that is needed to get the bridge to work _(I'm positive I've seen OAF do this)_ along with moving the locking nut further up to allow room for the slant. A small graphite nut behind the zero fret would also be needed to guide the strings to the lock.



You *can* do that, but honestly I don't think it looks very good. I'd be very surprised to see Kiesel take that option.


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## larry (Nov 22, 2015)

^ 
i hope Jeff decides against the 'easy' route. a propper multi-scale Vader would look killer and likely sell more. like it or not, great aesthetics do play a major role in a consumer's decision to buy.


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## Electric Wizard (Nov 22, 2015)

celticelk said:


> You *can* do that, but honestly I don't think it looks very good. I'd be very surprised to see Kiesel take that option.



But isn't making something that doesn't look very good exactly what Kiesel would do? 



*ducks*


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## russmuller (Nov 22, 2015)

I am much excite!


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 22, 2015)

Someday they'll make a regular baritone. Maybe...


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## thrsher (Nov 22, 2015)

xwmucradiox said:


> Someday they'll make a regular baritone. Maybe...



Well they do have the dc7x and the Vader's in baritone too


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## noise in my mind (Nov 22, 2015)

I'd like to see them make full bodied fanned acoustic too. Probably won't happen though.


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## Galeus708 (Nov 22, 2015)

It's only a matter of time until this finds it way to a Vader. And on that day, my money will have a hard time remaining in my wallet.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 22, 2015)

If they make fanned basses, too, I will murder someone. I've had quite enough of the whole "release cool new things, but not sell them direct to Korea" spiel.


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## JaxoBuzzo (Nov 22, 2015)

Someone do a vader mockup! 


How would that be done with the current hardware setup? Obviously modifications, or would they have to go with some different entirely? On the vader, I'm talking about.


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## Forkface (Nov 22, 2015)

Grand Moff Tim said:


> If they make fanned basses, too, I will murder someone. I've had quite enough of the whole "release cool new things, but not sell them direct to Korea" spiel.


wait, even after the "going worldwide" of kiesel guitars, they still don't sell to korea?
damn that sucks gg.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Nov 22, 2015)

Forkface said:


> wait, even after the "going worldwide" of kiesel guitars, they still don't sell to korea?
> damn that sucks gg.



Or Japan, iirc. Something to do with a distributor deal, I think.

They do sell to Korea, just not direct. I'd have to go through a dealer and pay dealer markup. As nice as Carvins are, they aren't really worth it when you double the price.


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## mikesch (Nov 22, 2015)

Hipshot is making the bridges for the Ormsby run. Since Kiesel uses Hipshot hardware it's likely that they'd use the same bridge. The neutral fret on the Kiesel is also the 9th, same as Ormsby, meaning the scales should be the same too. 

Six string: 25.5" - 27.5"
Seven string: 25.5" - 27.8"
Eight String: 25.5" - 28.2"


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## stevexc (Nov 22, 2015)

I have no words.


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## Hollowway (Nov 22, 2015)

stevexc said:


> I have no words.



BOOM! We have a mockup!


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## TamanShud (Nov 23, 2015)

^that's what we all came to see. Shows over now folks.

Also the Ormsby Hipshot bridges are proprietary, I can't really see Perry letting Carvin use them. Carvin would most likely be getting their own custom made or going the single bridge route.


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## Stealth7 (Nov 23, 2015)

stevexc said:


> I have no words.



Fake! There's a lack of bevels.


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## stevexc (Nov 23, 2015)

It's difficult to tell but _the whole thing is a bevel_.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 23, 2015)

mikesch said:


> Hipshot is making the bridges for the Ormsby run. Since Kiesel uses Hipshot hardware it's likely that they'd use the same bridge. The neutral fret on the Kiesel is also the 9th, same as Ormsby, meaning the scales should be the same too.
> 
> Six string: 25.5" - 27.5"
> Seven string: 25.5" - 27.8"
> Eight String: 25.5" - 28.2"



Not quite.



FrancescoFiligoi said:


> 7 is 25.5" to 27"
> 6 is 25.5" to 26.5"



And Francesco is an endorsee so I'm sure he's had the info for a bit and has seen it himself by now.


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## mikesch (Nov 23, 2015)

Makes sense, didn't see his post. The fan does the looks as extreme as Ormsby's either. I stand corrected.


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## Alex Kenivel (Nov 23, 2015)

I'm just happy to see a good looking headstock from C/K. It's about damn time.


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## VigilSerus (Nov 23, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> I'm just happy to see a good looking headstock from C/K. It's about damn time.



It's the same Aries headstock. Just so happens to work a little better on a fanned guitar.


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## Alex Kenivel (Nov 23, 2015)

ShadowsfeaR said:


> It's the same Aries headstock. Just so happens to work a little better on a fanned guitar.



I thought so as well, but after looking at different pictures it looks a little reworked. 

Or I'm tired and trippin


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## Quitty (Nov 23, 2015)

This on a Vader would be perfect, and make my recent purchase of a Vader quite painful.

For the sake of my GAS, let's hope the extra hardware isn't feasible any time soon.


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## GunnarJames (Nov 23, 2015)

JaxoBuzzo said:


> How would that be done with the current hardware setup? Obviously modifications, or would they have to go with some different entirely? On the vader, I'm talking about.



They'd have to use some sort of extension plate in front of the bridge and longer intonation screws on the higher strings, and have to extend the neck a little bit at the other end behind the angled nut to keep the current straight headpiece. 

New hardware would definitely look better in my opinion, but it can totally be done with minimal effort using the current hardware.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Nov 23, 2015)

That headstock definitely looks better with the fanned frets  I'm not a fan of it at all on the Aries or other models I've seen it on, but for some reason it just works here.

EDIT: I also just realized that if C/K is doing multiscale models, then that means that they'll likely be doing the Lithium pickups in an angled format. If they put those angled pickups up for sale on their website they could be potential replacements for people with Agile or Ibanez FF models, no? Really hoping they don't take the easy route and use the A70/A80 active pickups on these...

EDIT PART TWO: If the bass side of the 7 string version is 27" and they're still using the Aries headstock, then wouldn't that mean that the in-line headstock would also become an option on the DC7X? I know the reason it hasn't been is because the guitar would be too long for their cases, but maybe they've changed up the cases that they order in bulk to accommodate a 27" scale+in-line neck? I dunno


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## Fathand (Nov 23, 2015)

olejason said:


> Dude just imagine a beveled fretboard



_"We created this new beveled fretboard that has a curved radius for better chording and for better cross string access. The best curve was measured and it was exactly 7.25"_



..but jokes aside, this makes my job as a potential buyer harder. A 6-string Bolt Classic or a 6-string Fanned fret Aries (which is the base model for this, I assume?). These first world problems are sometimes too much...


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## jemfloral (Nov 23, 2015)

ThePIGI King said:


> I'm thinking it's at the 8th or 9th now actually... my mind is all thrown off by the angle of the neck and all the wood in the background!



I think it's 9th as well, the 12th seems to be angled.


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## TylerE (Nov 23, 2015)

Mangle said:


> Personally, I'm thinking the extra long neck of a 28" scale will offset my want for the covenience of a multiscale. Can anyone who's graduated to the next of either levels confirm this hypothesis? Or are their playability factors really just off the charts? Once you make the transition?



Off the charts. My Boden (26.5"-28") actually feels shorter scale than my Omen 8 (Straight 26.5"). No, I don't understand it either.


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 23, 2015)

olejason said:


> Dude just imagine a beveled fretboard



Upright basses have beveled fretboards!


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 23, 2015)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> EDIT: I also just realized that if C/K is doing multiscale models, then that means that they'll likely be doing the Lithium pickups in an angled format. If they put those angled pickups up for sale on their website they could be potential replacements for people with Agile or Ibanez FF models, no? Really hoping they don't take the easy route and use the A70/A80 active pickups on these...:



Not really because the Ibanez FF models are using soapbar EMGS at two different angles so it will leave a lot of room. Also if they have triangle or square tabs and what angle they slant the pickups at. I'm not sure you can just drop in a pickup that is at a different degree slant.

If they do however it gives people another option when buying fanned pickups for their future custom guitars.



> Jeff Kiesel
> 
> Multscale Update - The main reason I was hesitant about offering them was because most companies Multis are awkward feeling and they just don't feel right. And of course the awful active pickup only option was not going to be ok with me. I am not one to put something out just to make money, I need to believe in it. So after lots of testing, tweaks and changes over the past several months I am a believer in our Multi and am very happy (so much so, it has me playing it a lot and wanting to keep picking it up). I have done a few things different than any other company and the feel of our Multi is the most comfortable and it feels and sounds right.
> 
> ...



A lot of info there. I'm interested in the part where he says he's done things differently than any other company.


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## ferret (Nov 23, 2015)

Jeff update from FB


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## ikarus (Nov 23, 2015)

from Jeff's fb page:



> Multscale Update - The main reason I was hesitant about offering them was because most companies Multis are awkward feeling and they just don't feel right. And of course the awful active pickup only option was not going to be ok with me. I am not one to put something out just to make money, I need to believe in it. So after lots of testing, tweaks and changes over the past several months I am a believer in our Multi and am very happy (so much so, it has me playing it a lot and wanting to keep picking it up). I have done a few things different than any other company and the feel of our Multi is the most comfortable and it feels and sounds right.
> Moving on to the important things and what you are care about:
> Available: Tomorrow 6AM PST, no joke (all programming done)
> I am doing something special for everyone that buys this week
> ...


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## thrsher (Nov 23, 2015)

i hope its not the aries body for this though, that would be a huge bummer


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## olejason (Nov 23, 2015)

Pikka Bird said:


> Upright basses have beveled fretboards!



haha Some of them do indeed. I played a Czech era Juzek in college that had the beveled fingerboard under the E in thumb position. I wouldn't necessarily say it was better than a non-beveled board but it was interesting.


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 23, 2015)

thrsher said:


> Well they do have the dc7x and the Vader's in baritone too



Sorry when I said "regular" I meant six string. And the 27" scale Vaders aren't really baritones since the biggest string the headpiece can take is a .060.


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## ThePIGI King (Nov 23, 2015)

I'm really hoping a lot of people buy these. I have no way possible to get the money for one soon, so I hope they sell well enough to let them stay on the market so that when I can buy, these are an option. Always wanted to spec out a C/K, this is just another reason.


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## kevdes93 (Nov 23, 2015)

If it's an Aries variant I'll cry, i really hope it's the standard DC shape


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## VigilSerus (Nov 23, 2015)

Feels different from the usual presentations Kiesel has given us lately. "Small picture here leading up to big reveal!" with the Aries... This is a huge thing that's like "oh hey I did a multi, oh yeah and you can start buying it tomorrow." Hardly any pictures either (I'm sure that will change over the next few hours/days).


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## celticelk (Nov 23, 2015)

kevdes93 said:


> If it's an Aries variant I'll cry, i really hope it's the standard DC shape



I'm 95% sure it's a DC. It's almost certainly not a brand-new shape.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 23, 2015)

He showed the neck on it's own, if it was a DC series it wouldn't be shown like that, it looks like a build so throwing away a neck for the sake of a photo seems wasteful.

Hoping it's the Aries personally


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## oversteve (Nov 23, 2015)

had some spare time and did this


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## chaneisa (Nov 23, 2015)

oversteve said:


> had some spare time and did this



I'd play the F outta that.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 23, 2015)

^I really like the look of that.


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## Captain Butterscotch (Nov 23, 2015)

Jesus, take the wheel because daaaaayum.


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## oversteve (Nov 23, 2015)

and ebony


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## Tom Drinkwater (Nov 23, 2015)

Don't get me wrong, I've been a Carvin fan since waaaaaaaay before their hype train got going but there are really no "tooling costs" associated with the multiscale mod for the Hipshot Headless System. I made my own extension plates with a hacksaw and aluminum flat bar stock for several of my builds and Eric from XEN had Hipshot make him the plates for some of the latest ones. Haha, tooling costs. It's a tiny extension plate and some longer (available off the shelf) screws. 

And the bit about everybody else's stuff feeling awkward? Major BS right there. He should've said that he waited until smaller companies could develop the market and then swoop in, that I'd believe. You know what I'm waiting for Carvin to do? Have an original idea. Well they did actually have the original idea of rolling out a 6 string ms before an 8? WTF?!? Does that make sense to anyone here? Disconnected much? 

All of that being said these should be fantastic guitars. Glad to see that Carvin is at least trying.


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## kevdes93 (Nov 23, 2015)

Yeah, I'd actually hit that.


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## TamanShud (Nov 23, 2015)

And here I am opening a new savings account.....


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## oracles (Nov 23, 2015)

Couldn't care any less about the FF, I'm just happy he finally realized off set dots are a thing.


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## chaneisa (Nov 23, 2015)

oversteve said:


> and ebony



I would play the F outta that, as well.


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## Halowords (Nov 23, 2015)

I think Tom's got a point. Well, a few. Several lower-quantity companies have figured out ways to make multiscale headless guitars work, and if it just takes a tiny extension plate and some off-the-shelf screws (or is at least possible with a fairly simple solution such as that), that all seems pretty low-cost.

I really think it is more about them being conservative. Which is fine, but just say that. They do seem like they are ignoring the market to some degree. I know 8/9/10-string multiscale headless guitars are probably never going to be the next big thing alongside Stratocasters and Les Pauls. However, they seem to be ignoring the demand and success for those sorts of guitars that Agile and Strandberg have been filling, as well as a bunch of other smaller custom/semi-custom builders. It does feel oblivious to offer a 6-string multiscale (where the advantage seems pretty minimal, relatively speaking) before making it an offer on something like a custom-DC800 or a Vader. So they're going to hold out on the two that seem to make the most sense considering what people who play/lust-after multiscale guitars seem to ask for the most?

Also, regarding the pickups...offer rail pickups!!!!!! Lace, or EMGs, are options. I know they make their own, but they could offer different brands if that is a stumbling block for them.

As for most companies' multiscales feeling awkward, maybe that is his genuine opinion. However, enough seem to find them no big deal that I question that. It does seem like a statement meant to build hype. I know that is _his_ opinion, so I cannot really claim he is wrong about that. Still, that is ignoring the number of people that have said 1", 2", and 3" fans are fine, and that some have found 5" fans (maybe bigger) perfectly acceptable.

I can appreciate making sure there is a market for this sort of stuff, but that does seem a bit like they are shoveling something into the hype train. On the one hand, it feels disingenuous when they basically take shots at other multiscale necks as a way to hype their own.



> "[A]fter lots of testing, tweaks and changes over the past several months [snip]I have done a few things different than any other company and the feel of our Multi is the most comfortable and it feels and sounds right."



He could have written that in a way that acknowledges he built off the work smaller builders have done and made his own tweaks. But that seems a little over-the-top for something that has been around for, well, centuries, and in the modern guitar market since at least 1989 when Novak got his patent for the "fan fret" take.

On the other hand I realize they are going to build interest, but they are doing it in a way I am not a fan of. Just acknowledge the time is right to take that step, and then actually create the guitar people are asking for (hint: not six-string multiscales), and be done with it. I like Carvin as a company, but this seems like a bit of a self-congratulatory gesture on their part when they are offering something I personally see as lacking a bit of insight into what most people seem to be asking for. I would be less critical if they did not seem to be oblivious to what Strandberg, Ibanez, Schecter, and Agile (not to mention the smaller and custom builders) have brought to the market to fill the niches of ERGs and multiscale/headless guitars already. Not to mention that it seems a bit condescending to said smaller businesses who have been doing this type of guitar for way longer than Carvin. That rubs me a bit wrong.

Just my $0.02.

-Cheers


----------



## posmaster (Nov 23, 2015)

From Facebook:

What are you thankful for this time of year? I know what we are thankful for right now!
*Launches tomorrow 6AM PST*


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## TylerE (Nov 23, 2015)

Honestly, multiscale Lithiums might be the most interesting part of that. Wonder if they'd be willing to do a run of soapbar-mount-sized 8 string lithiums.


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## GenghisCoyne (Nov 23, 2015)

thrsher said:


> i hope its not the aries body for this though, that would be a huge bummer



your bolt on bias makes you difficult to work with


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## thrsher (Nov 23, 2015)

GenghisCoyne said:


> your bolt on bias makes you difficult to work with



I will put my differences aside for this one, but I cannot over look the Aries body, I can't stand the aesthetic of the heavy bevel. Who knows maybe I'll be converted because of this haha


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## ferret (Nov 23, 2015)

There's the details on your early bird free upgrades. Luminay, 5pc neck, 3pc and treated fretboard if you get one of his finishes, etc.


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## Hollowway (Nov 24, 2015)

Yeah, the fact that they're offering 6 and 7 multiscales, rather than 7 and 8s, shows me they're just jumping on the bandwagon without fully understanding what multiscales are even about. I mean, I have yet to see anyone asking Carvin to make a fanned 6 string, but loads asking for an 8. It makes waaaay more sense on an 8. 
Also, if I'm guessing correctly, the pickups will just be regular Lithiums with the bobbins angled. That means that the angling of the pickups are limited because the spacing between the pole pieces is not increased. So the bridge pickup will likely not be angled properly with respect to the fan. The CORRECT way to to it is like how Tom Drinkwater did with the Instrumental pups he had made, so that the entire pickup was designed around the fan. Tom's current line ups are really the only semi-production models where the entire instrument is designed around the fan, rather than things being modified to sort-of work with the fan. I'm going to guess that these Carvins do not have the pups redesigned to work with the fan.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 24, 2015)

If he's done his research then he knows just how important it is to angle the bridge pickup so it matches the angle of the bridge which on a 1.5" fan will be 16 degrees I think. The neck is debatable since it can match th angle of the 24th fret or be the same as the bridge. 

A fanned 6 is odd since nowadays anyone who wants to play lower than C gets a 7 string. I will be really
Interested to see how big a market there is for these.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Nov 24, 2015)




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## vinniemallet (Nov 24, 2015)

Cool review!


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## oversteve (Nov 24, 2015)




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## ikarus (Nov 24, 2015)

My favourite part is where he explains that the bridge and bridge pickup should be in the same angle, while it is actually not the case on the guitar that he is holding.


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## ikarus (Nov 24, 2015)

My favourite part is where he explains that the bridge and bridge pickup should be in the same angle, while it is actually not the case on the guitar that he is holding.


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## WiseSplinter (Nov 24, 2015)

The neck and bridge pickups seem to have the same degree of slant. 
I'm hoping they went with the bkp "standard" of 10 degrees, and hopefully similar routing.

The only reason I'm still using the stock pups on my DC727 is because the routes for the old stock pups was "non-standard".


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 24, 2015)

The bridge is fanned at about 10 degrees(same as BKP which is made for a .75" 7 string fan) to match the 24th fret and not the bridge itself which is very important in a fanned fret guitar. It should be the same angle as the bridge otherwise it undoes some of the effects of the fan.


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## ikarus (Nov 24, 2015)

I just think that it looks weird when the bridge and pickup are not at the same angle....


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## kevdes93 (Nov 24, 2015)

I guess I can live with it, but i feel that no matter how successful this ends up it could have been more so had they stuck with a more basic shape out of the gate. The Aries is still a pretty polarizing shape. Will look cool in solid colors though for sure


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## GenghisCoyne (Nov 24, 2015)

option 50 flat top? maybe?


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## FifthCircleSquared (Nov 24, 2015)

Do you guys hate your forearms or something?  I realize the bevel is a pretty deep cut, but it's tapered and I'll be damned if it doesn't feel good. 

I might be the weird one here, but I actually like the bevels on, say, the PRS S2 series as opposed to their standard arch top. It's just comfortable. I wish my KM-7 had some sort of forearm cut. It doesn't seem to bother me on LP shaped singlecuts, however. Love the rounded/beveled edges on SG's.

When you guys say flat top, do you really mean something like their DC600, with a more or less flat top, and a less dramatic forearm cut? I'd be down with that.


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## kevdes93 (Nov 24, 2015)

Yeah, I was personally hoping for basically a fanned DC600 and DC700. Just saw the full reveal though, I like it. Glad to are they finally added stuff like rear body natural clear and thinner neck profile directly to the builder


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## vkw619 (Nov 24, 2015)

Heres a video just posted by Stevie T (Metal Comedian/Guitar Player)

Video Link


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## ferret (Nov 24, 2015)

embed of above:


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 24, 2015)

Other than the bevel obviously being what it is, that might make a few of you people GAS hard.


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## kevdes93 (Nov 24, 2015)

Love it, I also love the top edge of that ebony board


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## MetalDaze (Nov 24, 2015)

I woke up wondering if I was going to place an order today, but wasn't excited to see it on the Aries body. I'm going to hold out and see if they add multiscale to other models.

Now the rest of you....buy some of these weird looking Aries guitars so that they continue to offer multiscale!!!!


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## Halowords (Nov 24, 2015)

So...the Carvin site for the multiscale 6 & 7 are live, links below if anybody is interested:

AM6 ARIES MULTISCALE FANNED-FRET BEVEL-TOP BOLT NECK GUITAR | CarvinGuitars.com
AM7 ARIES MULTISCALE FANNED-FRET BEVEL-TOP BOLT NECK 7-STRING GUITAR | CarvinGuitars.com

-Cheers


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## thrsher (Nov 24, 2015)

the only way i can get past the body is by not having a top wood, unless it was walnut on walnut or somesort. i think im gonna pass on it for awhile though


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## WiseSplinter (Nov 24, 2015)

The bevel really doesn't bother me, but I will say that it does look better with a solid finish.

Those hipshot solo bridge pieces don't look very comfortable though, didn't they change the Vaders hardware because people complained about the sharp edges? 
I imagine they'll get similar complaints here. Anyone care to comment on that if you've tried them?

Still, this is very cool, I think I might bite... just got to find something to sell... used DC727 anyone?


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 24, 2015)

^An all Black Limba like your old Carvin would work really well. 

I just spec'd one out, the prices of these are crazy. Even with import fees its very tempting.


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## VigilSerus (Nov 24, 2015)

Huh. The multiscale actually makes the bevel look better. I couldn't tell you why. The headstock and bevel actually just work here. I mean, I'd still prefer it to not be so exaggerated, but it's definitely not as bad as the straight scale. Maybe it's all the movement going on in the guitar. Everything is at an angle and in motion, so it might just flow better with the bevel.


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## technomancer (Nov 24, 2015)

WiseSplinter said:


> Those hipshot solo bridge pieces don't look very comfortable though, didn't they change the Vaders hardware because people complained about the sharp edges?
> I imagine they'll get similar complaints here. Anyone care to comment on that if you've tried them?



The piece people complained about on the Vader was the side of the bridge that stuck up above the saddles. These don't have that piece they're just the flat saddles and should feel no different than a normal Hipshot.


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## celticelk (Nov 24, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> A fanned 6 is odd since nowadays anyone who wants to play lower than C gets a 7 string.



What? No.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 24, 2015)

celticelk said:


> What? No.



I should have said the majority of people from what I see on forums, youtube and facebook. The trend nowadays is to move towards a 7 when you are going down to B and below.


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## celticelk (Nov 24, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I should have said the majority of people from what I see on forums, youtube and facebook. The trend nowadays is to move towards a 7 when you are going down to B and below.



If you're only paying attention to extremely technical styles, maybe. You're not going to find many doom guitarists playing 7s.


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## olejason (Nov 24, 2015)

Price looks great. It will be harder to justify the Korean multis now I think.


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## celticelk (Nov 24, 2015)

For those puzzled by why Carvin's offering a fanned 6, I'll offer my usual observation that Carvin knows more about what its customers want than you do.


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 24, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I should have said the majority of people from what I see on forums, youtube and facebook. The trend nowadays is to move towards a 7 when you are going down to B and below.



When I'm on tour I rarely see people playing 7s or 8s in low tuned bands. Most often I see guys playing an SG or similar in super low tunings.


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## Halowords (Nov 24, 2015)

olejason said:


> Price looks great. It will be harder to justify the Korean multis now I think.



Maybe. But not much. Strandberg makes it harder to justify a Korean multiscale more than the Kiesel Aries does, and I would still prefer an Agile due to some of the options offered by them that Carvin does not have. And then there are the other custom shops already available (in the U.S. and elsewhere) that I would also choose over this particular guitar.



celticelk said:


> For those puzzled by why Carvin's offering a fanned 6, I'll offer my usual observation that Carvin knows more about what its customers want than you do.



You have a point. And yet...there has to be something behind the other builders/companies offering multiscale guitars in something other than sixes and sevens. It is not so much being puzzled at them offering a fanned 6 so much as stopping at an 8. I am not meaning to bitch about it, but that is kind of...puzzling. As for them knowing what their customers want more than us, I am tempted to cry bollocks over that, but I won't.  I _will_ say the market for 8-string guitars, headless guitars, and multiscale guitars existed within their customer base looooooooooooong before they got around to offering them and this just seems like a very conservative move.

-Cheers


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 24, 2015)

xwmucradiox said:


> When I'm on tour I rarely see people playing 7s or 8s in low tuned bands. Most often I see guys playing an SG or similar in super low tunings.



Thats interesting. Do you think a multi scale 6 would be something that they'd start using?


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## olejason (Nov 24, 2015)

Halowords said:


> Maybe. But not much. Strandberg makes it harder to justify a Korean multiscale more than the Kiesel Aries does, and I would still prefer an Agile due to some of the options offered by them that Carvin does not have. And then there are the other custom shops already available (in the U.S. and elsewhere) that I would also choose over this particular guitar.



Aren't Strandberg's made in Korea? I haven't really kept up, I thought World was still making them but maybe that isn't the case anymore. What other multis in the $1200-1500 are available other than custom Agile, Strandberg, Ormsby, & Carvin?


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## olejason (Nov 24, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Thats interesting. Do you think a multi scale 6 would be something that they'd start using?



A lot of people I see using low tuned SG's and the like _want_ the tone kind of loose and sloppy. I think it would depend on what they're going for.


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## Halowords (Nov 24, 2015)

olejason said:


> Aren't Strandberg's made in Korea? I haven't really kept up, I thought World was still making them but maybe that isn't the case anymore. What other multis in the $1200-1500 are available other than custom Agile, Strandberg, Ormsby, & Carvin?



I'm not sure where Strandbergs are made.

I'll grant you there are not many options. But, Ibanez has an 8-string multiscale. Agile has more options than Carvin, and while the quality is generally not going to be up to Carvin's if you want an 8, 9, or 10-string Carvin is right out. I have seen six-string Strandbergs for $1,895.00 on their website:
https://strandbergguitars.com/product/boden-os-6/

And ones for much, much more.

I also think it pays to look at the market as a while. Yes, Carvin will fill a niche. I would argue Ibanez is already filling one better with their 8-string multiscale listed below at $1,199.99;
Ibanez Iron Label RGIF8 Fanned Fret 8-String Electric Guitar

and Agile offers a greater range. OAF and XEN and a slew of other builders offer smaller semi-custom to full-range custom (depending on the builder) multiscale and headless guitar options. That is not to bag on Carvin, but to point out there are at least several other options. Then for importing there are a bunch that get listed here all the time that will cost more but that can depend on what you are asking. I will grant you a Novax or Jeff Traugott or Myka or whatever may cost more, so if that is the main criteria, a production model will always win. But even then, Ibanez offers an 8-string multiscale for not terribly much.

This is not to take a shot at Carvin, just venting a bit because they are doing something that, on the surface, it seems like few are clamoring for, while simultaneously expressing doubt over some of the options people seem to be talking about more as if they were nearly impossible while other builders (custom and production) currently ARE doing.

-Cheers


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 24, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Thats interesting. Do you think a multi scale 6 would be something that they'd start using?



Probably not. Pretty much 100% of the products people on SS.org obsess over are things I NEVER see anyone use at any show I've ever been to, with the exception of high profile musicians who play instrumental shred music. All of these multiscale, headless, etc... instruments are extremely niche. 

Further, most folks play what their heroes play. And when peoples' heroes are youtube guitarists who self-produce solo projects in home studios it starts to make sense why you never see any of this gear at local shows. The people that play it are probably doing the same thing and their target audience is friends on the internet and fans on youtube rather than people in their local town.

That said, a multiscale 6 is a great idea even for standard tuning. John Mayer's first signature-esque guitar was a Novax six string.


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## Fathand (Nov 24, 2015)

The Aries was ok before, but with the fan it's even better. I like it a lot. 

..edit: That being said, it still would be just number 3 on my "Carvin GAS" -list. :|


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## JD27 (Nov 24, 2015)

Well damn, this is tempting. I don't mind that body when it's a solid color, I'd rock a seafoam green or blue mist metallic model. That reverse inline headstock has grown on me as well. My biggest problem would be 6 or 7.


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## pott (Nov 24, 2015)

Ordered one. I have no idea why (why not?). I don't play low too often, but figured a longer scale could motivate me to finally keep a guitar tuned low!

6 strings (seriously, hard enough to play as it is)
Grabber Blue
Mahog body
Maple/walnut net
Ebony (streaky) fingerboard with luminlays
3+3 headstock

Never played or even seen a Carvin, so it's a shot in the dark. But I like their neck specs and electronic control placement. + that forearm contour will make the Aries soooo comfortable...

Funny... wasn't a huge fan (ha... ha...) of the Aries, but when the Multiscale neck popped up, I hoped the Aries would be the base model. It just really seems to work...


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## wannabguitarist (Nov 24, 2015)

It would be awesome if the 6-string scale started at something like 24.75in. Not going to happen but I can dream


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## hairychris (Nov 24, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Thats interesting. Do you think a multi scale 6 would be something that they'd start using?



Nope.

The low-tuned doom/sludge lot are generally very conservative with equipment. Multi-scales also don't really map well if you're playing your guitar at knee level either, and none of those guys play guitar above the waist.

Gibson/Gibson-a-like or weird vintage .... is pretty much the default in that field, with a few of the more adventurous/richer folks going for stuff like Electrical Guitar Company. One of Eyehategod's guitarists using a Parker Fly is absolutely an outlier.

Edit: My old band played sludge-influenced stuff on 7s. I can't remember seeing any more than 2 or 3 bands that we shared a stage with doing the same, that vast majority used 6ers.


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## feraledge (Nov 24, 2015)

I still don't like the headstock, but I have to admit that with the fan that the whole design makes a bit more sense. Also, the whole bevel joke has nothing to do with bevels in and of themselves, it has to do with the "let's just saw that part off" look of 1-3 different tops. Do not like. At least with the antique ash treatment it can be pulled off pretty well.


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## Halowords (Nov 24, 2015)

xwmucradiox said:


> Probably not. Pretty much 100% of the products people on SS.org obsess over are things I NEVER see anyone use at any show I've ever been to, with the exception of high profile musicians who play instrumental shred music. *All of these multiscale, headless, etc... instruments are extremely niche.*
> 
> [snip]
> 
> That said, a multiscale 6 is a great idea even for standard tuning. John Mayer's first signature-esque guitar was a Novax six string.



While I understand that's the way it _has been,_ I would like to think all of these new(?) types of guitars being built, or the greater focus on these types of guitars (7 [or more] string/multiscale/headless/etc.) can lead to at least the exploration of new stuff. Just because that has been the norm does not mean it has to stay that way, nor is that to say there is not a market for this (ostensibly growing) niche.

I can pretty much agree with you on everything you said, and yet it does seem to be somewhat indicative of something that we are seeing a greater number of ERG's available on the market and even some crossover into music. It is limited, but the concept of multiscale instruments is centuries old, and while not mainstream pop nor a multiscale electric guitar, Tony Levin has been rocking a Chapman Stick for how long? Point being, there is room for this extremely niche thing to grow into its own even if at this moment it is not synonymous with most of our guitar heroes. And yes, a multiscale six could work just fine (standard or baritone). But the eight-string or bass/guitar hybrids (ala. the Ibanez SR7VIISC and the like) would be most likely to benefit from a multiscale, and Carvin has already proven to themselves that those sell, and it seems to me they have several other examples that demonstrate it is a viable market at the moment.

-Cheers


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Nov 24, 2015)

But that on anything except an Aries and we'll talk.


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 24, 2015)

Halowords said:


> While I understand that's the way it _has been,_ I would like to think all of these new(?) types of guitars being built, or the greater focus on these types of guitars (7 [or more] string/multiscale/headless/etc.) can lead to at least the exploration of new stuff. Just because that has been the norm does not mean it has to stay that way, nor is that to say there is not a market for this (ostensibly growing) niche.
> 
> I can pretty much agree with you on everything you said, and yet it does seem to be somewhat indicative of something that we are seeing a greater number of ERG's available on the market and even some crossover into music. It is limited, but the concept of multiscale instruments is centuries old, and while not mainstream pop nor a multiscale electric guitar, Tony Levin has been rocking a Chapman Stick for how long? Point being, there is room for this extremely niche thing to grow into its own even if at this moment it is not synonymous with most of our guitar heroes. And yes, a multiscale six could work just fine (standard or baritone). But the eight-string or bass/guitar hybrids (ala. the Ibanez SR7VIISC and the like) would be most likely to benefit from a multiscale, and Carvin has already proven to themselves that those sell, and it seems to me they have several other examples that demonstrate it is a viable market at the moment.
> 
> -Cheers



Im definitely not saying these products are bad or pointless or unpopular. Im just pointing out that folks that spend a lot of time on forums start to think that their wants and needs are representative of the market as a whole, whether guitar players in general or guitar players in their genre. Pointing out a guy like Tony Levin is actually a perfect example of this. If you don't play and listen to prog, you aren't going to have any idea who that is. But a forum like this would have you think everyone who has ever picked up a guitar knows about and listens to Tony Levin projects all the time. 

I think there are a ton of benefits to multis and such but because there are so many more variables with them, so few people have experience with them, and there is so much misinformation about them, they will probably remain outside the realm of the typical player for a long time to come.


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 24, 2015)

pott said:


> Ordered one.
> 
> [*snip*]
> 
> 3+3 headstock



Can you actually do that? Word on the wire is that the reverse inline is the only one you can get ATM.

Your specs are definitely nice, no matter what. I love grabber blue!


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## narad (Nov 24, 2015)

Oh no...I was just messing around with the bevel and I accidentally created one of the nicest guitars I've seen!






Kiesel please make this an option! I would buy this in a heartbeat!


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 24, 2015)

^That's the reason I'd want more options for the DC models- so I could order a natural/oil finished one and carve my own bevels and other contours. I'd make the "main" part way more subtle than in that edit.


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## jerm (Nov 24, 2015)

^what am i missing haha looks the same?


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## mniel8195 (Nov 24, 2015)

why they can't just make the neck smooth all the way down to the heel i don't understand... I hate guitars with the flat back of the neck at the heel.


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## pott (Nov 24, 2015)

Pikka Bird said:


> Can you actually do that? Word on the wire is that the reverse inline is the only one you can get ATM.
> 
> Your specs are definitely nice, no matter what. I love grabber blue!



Thanks  There are two headstock options, the reverse in-line or the 3+3.
I like more compact guitars, so I went with the 3+3.

Hesitating though... I selected grabber blue + ebony, but the headstock will be painted to match the body. Wondering if that'll go well or not...

EDIT: just called them up and shelled an extra $100 for an extra lightweight/resonant piece of Ash. I really hope it's worth it!


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## Veritech Zero (Nov 24, 2015)

Looks like they are doing free Luminlay and either Free 5 piece neck or 3 piece body and Kiesel treated fretboard till the end of the week. I'm about 5 seconds from putting an order in on a surf green AM7 with the "ice" color treated birdseye maple fretboard...


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 24, 2015)

Ordering a 6 string near the end of the week, this is gonna be ....ing sweet. None of my 6 strings can handle C Standard/Drop B as well as I'd like so it'll be nice to have a guitar for those tunings.


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## rewihendrix (Nov 24, 2015)

wannabguitarist said:


> It would be awesome if the 6-string scale started at something like 24.75in. Not going to happen but I can dream



Yeah we're probably the minority but that's absolutely what I want. The reason I want a multiscale is nothing to do with drop tunings (I play in standard).

It's just that I like the sound of a power chord on a 25.5", and I like the lead sound of a Gibson scale.


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## Axayacatl (Nov 24, 2015)

narad said:


> Oh no...I was just messing around with the bevel and I accidentally created one of the nicest guitars I've seen!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This looks soooooooo much better (to me) but I couldn't tell you how it's different. 

Did you fix the guitar by bevelling the bevel? Is that the secret? 

Looks great. Just don't go crazy and add a cutaway to the cutaway.


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## Hollowway (Nov 24, 2015)

They do look amazing. But I'm irritated that the bridge pickup has the same angle as the neck pickup. If you're going to go on and on about how you did all sorts of research, investigated all about fans, etc., you should AT LEAST make the bridge pickup match the fan. I mean, I understand if regular luthiers don't do it, but they don't make their own pickups. I don't know why Carvin had to stop short of making it perfect. Tom Drinkwater, Kevin Fast and Instrumental pickups can make guitars with pups like that, and have a competitive price on theirs. I realize it doesn't make a huge difference in sound, but it's, IMO, a lazy design decision.


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## narad (Nov 24, 2015)

Axayacatl said:


> This looks soooooooo much better (to me) but I couldn't tell you how it's different.



The degree of offset between the top material at the bevel and at the horn is really large in the actual aries shape, and I find it really annoying -- a dealbreaker as far as the figured tops are concerned. All I did was essentially increase the angle of the bevel, so now you can draw a straight line from the top of the burl wood above the bridge to the top of the burl wood at the horn. 

I'd love to pay an extra $100 or even $200 for them to just do that bevel by hand so that I could specify how much of the top wood should show through (if you're reading this Chris and this is possible - PM me!).


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## curlyvice (Nov 24, 2015)

The Canadian dollar is a serious point of frustration for me now. It put me off getting a Vader this summer but I might not be able to resist this urge. Might wait for the 8-string version to become available (hopefully).

If someone with magic photoshop skills could mockup an AM8 that would be incredible. I feel like the body shape would look incredible in an 8


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 24, 2015)

curlyvice said:


> The Canadian dollar is a serious point of frustration for me now. It put me off getting a Vader this summer but I might not be able to resist this urge. Might wait for the 8-string version to become available (hopefully).
> 
> If someone with magic photoshop skills could mockup an AM8 that would be incredible. I feel like the body shape would look incredible in an 8



I know man.. I'd order 2 more Kiesels if it was better.. trick though, if you can sell enough gear thru paypal in US funds, you can call to ask to make an order thru paypal with Kiesel. I've sold a few things (with more to go) so hoping to get $2500 together for my CT7 order, and I wont be completely owned in conversion fees.. now the Fractal AX8 I want, is credit card only, and the $1399 US is easily gonna cost me $2300+ CAD which really bugs me but what can ya do =/


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## Alex Kenivel (Nov 24, 2015)

I don't know man... Saying you're not doing it just for the money but then seeing if sales will let you know if you'll be able to do an eight or any other kind of model seems kind of money grabbing to me. 

I only say that because I know they can do better, and probably will down the road, but I think it's ridiculous to say "you guys have to buy up this new model coming out before I'm thinking about opening up production for these other models in multiscale" 

I really do like that one StevieT has. Solid colors look real good and that kind of fan for a 7 makes sense, but an 8 would make even more sense.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 24, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> They do look amazing. But I'm irritated that the bridge pickup has the same angle as the neck pickup. If you're going to go on and on about how you did all sorts of research, investigated all about fans, etc., you should AT LEAST make the bridge pickup match the fan. I mean, I understand if regular luthiers don't do it, but they don't make their own pickups. I don't know why Carvin had to stop short of making it perfect. Tom Drinkwater, Kevin Fast and Instrumental pickups can make guitars with pups like that, and have a competitive price on theirs. I realize it doesn't make a huge difference in sound, but it's, IMO, a lazy design decision.



I think you're nitpicking, and as an owner of several FF guitars, some with pickups properly angled/straight pickups. It doesn't make as much of a difference as you're making it seem.






Owned a Boden CL7 and a Boden 6, and they both sounded fine even with a gap of that size where you show the most concern over.
Now putting it into actual perspective because I feel like you'll want that.










Because those guitars are actually the same size/proportions in both photos, the distance from the bridge to the very end of the bobbin in the standard scale Aries is 12 pixels, the Multiscale Aries is 15 Pixels away. That is such a negligible difference and I'm not exactly sure why you're calling it bad design and throwing a fuss about it.

I get it, it COULD match the fan by the slightest degree. Complain to Kiesel about it and he'll more than likely change it, if you guys haven't noticed he's been implementing the desires of the vocal minority nonstop recently (Non Signature Headless, Bolt 24 Fret, Multiscale, Wood Species, etc).

All I know is I'm not turning down a 1200$ multi-scale 6 string from a well known brand that's consistent and killing it right now.


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## rewihendrix (Nov 24, 2015)

I don't have a problem with him running a business to make money...

Rather than saying "I'm not doing it for the money" he could've said "I didn't want to release something that wasn't researched properly because that could damage our brand image and lead to loss of sales in the mid to long-term".


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## dirtool (Nov 24, 2015)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXedOB8Sblw
the gold one Steve Terreberry playing is just amazing, like a racing car


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## Alex Kenivel (Nov 24, 2015)

rewihendrix said:


> I don't have a problem with him running a business to make money...
> 
> Rather than saying "I'm not doing it for the money" he could've said "I didn't want to release something that wasn't researched properly because that could damage our brand image and lead to loss of sales in the mid to long-term".



Eh, it was less about that and more about how this has to sell so well before any other model get a multi scale option, or as far as an 8 string goes.


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## ramses (Nov 24, 2015)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Eh, it was less about that and more about how this has to sell so well before any other model get a multi scale option, or as far as an 8 string goes.




I don't understand. Why would Kiesel/Carvin offer a multi-scale 8, or multi-scale headless, if a multi-scale 7 doesn't sell well???


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## elq (Nov 24, 2015)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I think you're nitpicking, and as an owner of several FF guitars, some with pickups properly angled/straight pickups. It doesn't make as much of a difference as you're making it seem.




Moving a bridge pickup .5" towards the neck will most certainly change a guitar's tone... it might not be all that noticeable if you use so much gain that the guitar turns into an essentially percussive instrument, but it is something I notice


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## Hollowway (Nov 24, 2015)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I think you're nitpicking, and as an owner of several FF guitars, some with pickups properly angled/straight pickups. It doesn't make as much of a difference as you're making it seem.



Totally. But they had to make a decision on it. And they chose to not put the bridge pup at the angle required by the fan. It also wouldn't be a big deal of the fretboard was straight, but the frets were angled, leaving a bunch of leftover fretboard at the end. But my point is that Jeff went on and on about how they've research and trial and error tested these things for months. And then they just put a standard pup in there. It doesn't make a big difference how the bridge pickup is angled, but it does make a difference. And because they make their own pickups, they could have made it angled if they had really been doing all of this research. Idk. I just know that luthiers with more experience in fanned frets put the pups on the fan. And I would bet that if strandberg made their own pickups they would be on the fan. To me it's kind of like when Ibby made their fanned models with the 12th fret parallel. It just showed a lack of research about what the average fanned fret player (all 17 of us ) would want. It doesn't make a big deal, but it's just weird. Or like with the top cut off on the forearm of the Vader. All that research into making it, and they didn't decide to leave the top wood over the bevel? 

I guess I'm less irritated about the angle of the pickups than I am with the big post Jeff made about how they did so much testing, research, etc., and how they don't like the other fanned models they've seen, rather than just saying they checked out some other luthiers builds and are going to make one for us to see how we like it. I still love the company, and the work they're doing, but there are just weird things about this that doesn't make it looked like they did a this planning like they say.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 24, 2015)

elq said:


> Moving a bridge pickup .5" towards the neck will most certainly change a guitar's tone... it might not be all that noticeable if you use so much gain that the guitar turns into an essentially percussive instrument, but it is something I notice



Who said I play with so much gain that it wouldn't be noticeable? Are you saying you can identify the difference noticeably? I can throw my own two cents in there and say you can't/haven't noticed a difference. You would need to play an instrument routed with pickups in this case like the Aries, reroute the guitar to fit an angled pickup (Has to be the same brand and type) and record your new findings audibly and listen back to actually compare that.

Knowing you probably haven't done that, I'll just leave it as that 

Not to mention that I could chalk up the difference if you got two guitars with the same pickups/specs to simply different pieces of the same wood species sounding different to the same scale as the distance of the pickup. 



Hollowway said:


> I guess I'm less irritated about the angle of the pickups than I am with the big post Jeff made about how they did so much testing, research, etc., and how they don't like the other fanned models they've seen, rather than just saying they checked out some other luthiers builds and are going to make one for us to see how we like it. I still love the company, and the work they're doing, but there are just weird things about this that doesn't make it looked like they did a this planning like they say.



I understand, but I think it's silly to assume that they didn't do all this testing. Retooling their CNC machines and accommodating for something that would require that, requires research and testing. Maybe they compensated the angled lithium pickup to sound fine with the small difference? Maybe Jeff preferred the way it was designed initially? Jeff is pretty open about everything he does, and the fact that this has been in development for as long as it has points to the obvious in my mind. You could always ask him if you're honestly curious and he'll be as transparent as ever.


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## Alex Kenivel (Nov 24, 2015)

ramses said:


> I don't understand. Why would Kiesel/Carvin offer a multi-scale 8, or multi-scale headless, if a multi-scale 7 doesn't sell well???



I think a multiscale 8 would be more logical because there would be more demand for it over a 6.

And didn't the new headless guitar come out not too long ago? And then the Aries like _just_ came out or something? And then all of a sudden, BOOM fanned frets. 

What's next week? Okay an Aries 8 Multi and then a headless multi by January? I'm glad I can't afford any more expensive things right now, because I cant wait till all the options finally come out for my multiscale headless 9 string with a Kaos pad connection in the new lower bevel (February, just watch..)


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## Hollowway (Nov 24, 2015)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Who said I play with so much gain that it wouldn't be noticeable? Are you saying you can identify the difference noticeably? I can throw my own two cents in there and say you can't/haven't noticed a difference. You would need to play an instrument routed with pickups in this case like the Aries, reroute the guitar to fit an angled pickup (Has to be the same brand and type) and record your new findings audibly and listen back to actually compare that.
> 
> Knowing you probably haven't done that, I'll just leave it as that



Have you done this? I have. I had a guitar made by Tom Drinkwater, and pickups made by Villex. The pickups were supposed to be a reverse P bass pickup style, such that the bass side of the pickup would be nearest the bridge, and the treble side of the pickup would be nearest the nut. Then the whole thing would be covered. When I got it, I played it a bit, and the bass end didn't sound as crisp as I had hoped, and the treble end sounded sort of ice-picky. So I wondered if it was just the way Villex winds them or what was up, and I tested where the blades were by where their magnetism was - and it turns out he wired them so they were like a P bass pup - backwards from what I wanted. So I send the bass back to Tom, he had Villex make another set, so they were a reverse P like I wanted, and it was reinstalled. So I literally did just the test you were asking for. And there was a difference. Not that I needed the test - anyone that's played a strat can tell you that a couple of inches of pickup movement has a dramatic effect on tone. 

But my issue is that I just think his original statement, regarding "most companies multis are awkward feeling and they just don't feel right," and, "the awful active pickup only option" sounds like his getting on a high horse. I highly doubt Jeff has played "most companies multis" and his own company was offering those "awful active pickup only options" on 8 strings until just recently. So, yeah, I'm calling BS on it. And OF COURSE he likes the pickups the way they are. He also likes the top being cut off on the Vaders. But I think those are design flaws that, while not a huge deal, are irritating for me. 

I also recognize that I'm crazy when it comes to pickup angles. I actually believe that on ERGs the pickups should be angled BEYOND the actual fan, making the bass end crisper and the treble end more mellow. So, you're absolutely right, it doesn't make a big difference. But then, multiscale doesn't make a big difference on a 6 string either.

Also note that I neither hate Carvin (although, I do kind of wonder where this whole Kiesel-everything thing is going, and I hope it doesn't take the brand off the tracks) nor do I disagree with you. I'm kind of a dick about the Aries design and this multi (probably because it's not offered in an 8 string ), and I am kind of on my own high horse about fanned frets.


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## elq (Nov 24, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> Not that I needed the test - anyone that's played a strat can tell you that a couple of inches of pickup movement has a dramatic effect on tone.





For example - reversing the angle of the bridge pickup on a strat is a reasonably common thing - an attempt to get a more Hendrix like tone. It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable IMHO.


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## Jonathan20022 (Nov 24, 2015)

That's definitely understandable, but it's also not anywhere near even 1/2 an inch of a difference if they did angle it further. I hear you guys overall though, I'm not against them pushing it a bit further back but I don't mind it enough to wait until that happens


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## Hollowway (Nov 25, 2015)

elq said:


> For example - reversing the angle of the bridge pickup on a strat is a reasonably common thing - an attempt to get a more Hendrix like tone. It's not a huge difference, but it is noticeable IMHO.



Whoa, I didn't know you could buy a pickguard like that! Where have I been?! That's pretty cool.


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## ovlott (Nov 25, 2015)

Reading this whole thread front to back has given me insurmountable amounts GAS. Gonna have to move a ton of gear now


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 25, 2015)

The distance isn't that much but if it was angled more it would line up better. Just guessing but they look to be about 12 degrees so a 14 degree bridge pickup would be the correct angle. I can notice the difference in tone, its subtle but its there. Its not a deal breaker but something that should have been addressed when researching and prototyping.


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## TamanShud (Nov 25, 2015)

I'm one of those guys playing with "so much gain" that the tonal differences in that few mm aren't as important to me. But aesthetically, having the bridge pickup angle different from the bridge looks super off in my mind and was definitely a missed opportunity from Jeff. It just ends up looking sloppy.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Nov 25, 2015)

Wait, shouldn't the bridge pickups pole pieces be in line with the fan, and not the bridge, to properly simulate a humbucker on a non-fanned guitar? Multi newb here.

Also, I think these are a cool option for people that like them. I only play down to maybe Drop C nowadays, and regular non-fanned guitars work fine for me.


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## kuma (Nov 25, 2015)

The reason they angled the pickups the same way is most likely so that they only have to make and stock one type of baseplate for all their multiscale pickups. Given how small the difference would be, I personally feel like that's a fair trade off for a production guitar to make.

As for Jeff's comments, it's just marketing BS. I stopped taking him seriously after the video where he took a drum sander to a headstock and said something to the effect of "Now it's even stronger."


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## WiseSplinter (Nov 25, 2015)

FifthCircleSquared said:


> Wait, shouldn't the bridge pickups pole pieces be in line with the fan, and not the bridge, to properly simulate a humbucker on a non-fanned guitar?



Yes, as far as I know it's not the specific distance from bridge to pickup, but rather a specific percentage of the total scale length. 
So the distance between the bridge and the pole under the high (shortest) string should be shorter than the distance between bridge and pole of the low (longest) string, to keep the same ratio and get the "right" sound.

I think ...


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Nov 25, 2015)

The reason behind not angling the bridge pickup to follow the bridge fan is because custom pickup molds with different pole-spacing would require different tools and a lot of money involved. As you can notice, the two bobbins are shifted between each other of course, but the magnets are still in the same place as they would on straight pickups.

That being said, the amount of fanning you see on the bridge pickup is the maximum they managed to do without poles starting to misalign.
Jeff has assured me the distance from the lowest string saddle to the lowest pole is exactly the same as the Vader model, and he personally can't hear any difference in tone whatsoever.

The higher string saddles get slightly closer to the poles, but also the scale gets progressively shorter, so tone would still remain balanced throughout all the strings.


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## n4t (Nov 25, 2015)

My 25-27 guitar from Oakland Axe Factory has a lesser angle on the bridge pickup versus the bridge. Seems to me this is common and I've seen this on many guitars. 

I would say that angles matching the fan are more rare.

Just my impression from what I have seen. My opinion is that it is aesthetically and functionally irrelevant.


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## narad (Nov 25, 2015)

Is the pickup fan the same as BKP's? To me the benefit of not being locked into Kiesel pickups for life would far outweigh the negligible effects of not being *quite* as tilted as the bridge. Note that in previous comparisons to strats and the like, the scope of this discrepancy is tiny.


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## FifthCircleSquared (Nov 25, 2015)

I'm trying to say that I don't think you _want_ the pickup as tilted as the bridge - If you imagine frets the whole length of the string, imagine what the angle of the fret would be there.

You know, like when you have a compound radius fretboard - Radius at the nut is 12", at the last fret it's 16", and at the bridge it's 20" (or so). 

So, when you change the scale from one side of the neck to the other, you want the pickup polepieces in their ideal location across the scale, which I think they've done here (That's the whole point of angling pickups, right?) - They followed the sum total of the fan and put the pickups at an angle that would match the fret angle _if you imagine frets the whole length of the string_. Which equals string to string clarity, and it sounding like a regular straight pickup. Right?

If you try to radius a bridge on a compound radius fretboard the same as the radius of the last fret, you're in for a bad time. I know it's apples to oranges, but short of actually drawing imaginary fret markers on a jpeg of an Ares I don't know how else to explain this.

*Edit. I see, you guys are upset that it *doesn't* follow as above. I understand now.


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## canuck brian (Nov 25, 2015)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I think you're nitpicking, and as an owner of several FF guitars, some with pickups properly angled/straight



If Jeff Kiesel is going to go online and promptly slag every single other manufacturer of fanned fret guitars in the first sentence of his announcement, I'll happily point out that having the identical angle pickups in both positions is sloppy, cosmetically off putting and looks like someone forgot to finish the guitar properly. 

It's the fine details that count and it looks like "meh, good enough." Theres actually no logical reason to use the same routes and pickup shapes unless you're cutting costs and using the same baseplate in both positions. Makes sense, but looks cheap.

All they had to do was change the angle on the cuts during the design and change the PDF for the bobbin cut outs. If my buddy can do this in 20 minutes and convert my fanned 8 stuff to 7 string fanned and have perfectly aligned and properly angled pickups and routes, Carvin can stop cutting corners and design this guitar so that looks properly thought out instead of someone slapping something together with MS Paint and rushed to production.



francisco said:


> ]The reason behind not angling the bridge pickup to follow the bridge fan is because custom pickup molds with different pole-spacing would require different tools and a lot of money involved. As you can notice, the two bobbins are shifted between each other of course, but the magnets are still in the same place as they would on straight pickups.



This is completely false. There are no "custom pickup molds." There are baseplates either laser cut or CNC'd out, unless they went with BK route and used custom metal baseplates (like a standard BK). Even if they did that, they could just make a second one at minimal costs (i work in a machine shop as well btw). They use identical parts. The only thing different is the baseplate and the bobbins. Tooling cost difference is actually ZERO. They can be cut from the same sheet at the exact same time whether it be on a CNC router mill or on a laser cutter. If i can get a tiny company in California to make little me a set of custom built, perfectly angled pickups for under $200 US over and over, Carvin can use their in house designers and multimillion dollar CNC setup to properly make them considering that they're already built in house.

Example - laser cut bobbins. Unless you're using a standardized baseplate (Duncan, BK, Nord), this is how fanned fret pickups are properly made with proper angles. This requires zero tool changes (if cut on a CNC router instead of a laser cutter) and can actually be done in the same program, which is how I cut mine. The angles on these are slightly different and fit perfectly in the cavities they were built for.


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## Hollowway (Nov 25, 2015)

Yes, you don't want the pups the same angle as the bridge. I think most people here saying that really mean that the pups should fall on the fan. Which means the bridge pickup should be more angled than the neck pup, but slightly less angled than the bridge.

And narad has the best point here: if this is the bkp angle, then these are swappable with bkps, and that alone will sell more models of this. That is a HUGE advantage. If that's their reasoning, then that trumps all.


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## narad (Nov 25, 2015)

FifthCircleSquared said:


> ... you want the pickup polepieces in *their ideal location* across the scale, which I think they've done here (That's the whole point of angling pickups, right?)



Would be great if we could get rid of this idea altogether. There is no ideal location. Totally subjective where you want them on the fanned fret guitar, totally subjective where you want them on the standard scale, and while I get what you're saying in trying to work out how Kiesel's strategy relates to a standard pickup in a standard instrument, we shouldn't even be thinking about that. 

Another confounding issue is that the pickup location should play nice with the pickup qualities, something we often don't think about probably because we often have a set bridge pickup position and our free variable is what pickup fills it. Kiesel essentially had a pickup, and needed to figure out where to put it to get the feel he thinks is best, and was maybe constrained a bit by laziness in tooling up something extreme.

So is it tight enough? Personally I'm going to wait until I hear more demos or have the chance to play one rather than make a judgement measuring distances in photographs.


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## mphsc (Nov 25, 2015)

OMG (gosh)


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## ncfiala (Nov 25, 2015)

I wish they would have done this for the DC700 instead. I guess the Aries is ok in solid colors, but they look horrible with the wood showing. Is there any reason why the bevel is not covered with the top wood?


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## thrsher (Nov 25, 2015)

ncfiala said:


> I wish they would have done this for the DC700 instead. I guess the Aries is ok in solid colors, but they look horrible with the wood showing. Is there any reason why the bevel is not covered with the top wood?



some say aesthetics, some say cutting corners/laziness and some say to streamline.

take your pick


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## technomancer (Nov 25, 2015)

thrsher said:


> some say aesthetics, some say cutting corners/laziness and some say to streamline.
> 
> take your pick



Actually unlike not doing a drop top on an arm contour on the Vader this one you really couldn't do without making 1/2 the guitar the top wood. The bevel on these really is huge and you can't bend a thinner top over a bevel.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Nov 25, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> This is completely false. There are no "custom pickup molds." There are baseplates either laser cut or CNC'd out, unless they went with BK route and used custom metal baseplates (like a standard BK).



I definitely don't know the technical details nor I am competent enough to know how this is done, but Jeff mentioned the tooling required would cost 5 figures - I rest assured on the fact that there is no perceivable tonal change and they did make a ton of tests to assure the pickup positioning provided the most balanced outcome from low to high strings.

To be honest, I'm not into fanned frets at all, but thought you guys might be interested in the details


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## canuck brian (Nov 25, 2015)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I definitely don't know the technical details nor I am competent enough to know how this is done, but Jeff mentioned the tooling required would cost 5 figures - I rest assured on the fact that there is no perceivable tonal change and they did make a ton of tests to assure the pickup positioning provided the most balanced outcome from low to high strings.
> 
> To be honest, I'm not into fanned frets at all, but thought you guys might be interested in the details



I am technical enough and I know how its done as I've done it. He's either completely uninformed or outright giving false information. It does not cost me a single penny to cut a different route that was programmed in under 60 seconds and the only additional cost i have on the different baseplates is that I had to buy a second rubbermaid container and label it "fanned neck pickups". The pickups cost the exact same amount of money. Anyone saying having two models is going to be more expensive - what's the argument against having two models of every pickup for every standard guitar - one for bridge and one for neck?

If Kiesel did all these tests to assure pickup positioning provided the most balance outcome from string to string, where's the data comparing superior Kiesel pickup placement against pickup placement following the extensive testing? If you're going to slag everyone else, Jeff needs back it up with something other than rhetoric. Was it costlier to do all these tests, which obviously were done against other Carvin fanned fret guitars with aligned routes equipped with identical Lithium pickups (because how else would you test that unless you're giving false information), rather than actually just use the body that you would have had to test against to make such a statement?

All that being said, I love Carvin. Please don't get me wrong. I have a Holdsworth Fatboy that I treasure. I very much do not appreciate being lumped into a blanket statement by Jeff about other builders especially when the information coming outta Jeff is either unfounded rhetoric or complete BS.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Nov 25, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> I am technical enough and I know how its done as I've done it. He's either completely uninformed or outright giving false information. It does not cost me a single penny to cut a different route that was programmed in under 60 seconds and the only additional cost i have on the different baseplates is that I had to buy a second rubbermaid container and label it "fanned neck pickups". The pickups cost the exact same amount of money. Anyone saying having two models is going to be more expensive - what's the argument against having two models of every pickup for every standard guitar - one for bridge and one for neck?
> 
> If Kiesel did all these tests to assure pickup positioning provided the most balance outcome from string to string, where's the data comparing superior Kiesel pickup placement against pickup placement following the extensive testing? If you're going to slag everyone else, Jeff needs back it up with something other than rhetoric. Was it costlier to do all these tests, which obviously were done against other Carvin fanned fret guitars with aligned routes equipped with identical Lithium pickups (because how else would you test that unless you're giving false information), rather than actually just use the body that you would have had to test against to make such a statement?
> 
> All that being said, I love Carvin. Please don't get me wrong. I have a Holdsworth Fatboy that I treasure. I very much do not appreciate being lumped into a blanket statement by Jeff about other builders especially when the information coming outta Jeff is either unfounded rhetoric or complete BS.



I get your point, but I'm just a guitarist and imho this is getting a bit too longwinded for such a minor detail, I'm sure the guitar sounds just fine. Perhaps better to write Jeff, hopefully he'll take some mins to answer your questions in detail


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## Cloudy (Nov 25, 2015)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I get your point, but I'm just a guitarist and imho this is getting a bit too longwinded for such a minor detail, I'm sure the guitar sounds just fine. Perhaps better to write Jeff, hopefully he'll take some mins to answer your questions in detail



Ive never been too nit picky about pickup placement so I personally don't care all that much that Kiesel took the easier approach with the routes. The difference between a few MM does seem quite longwinded to me given that its a miracle in itself that he even considered doing fanned frets. All the tone demos so far sound pretty solid to me. I have more of an issue with the god awful arm bevel 

I do, however, understand some peoples disappointment. Jeff stated that his multiscale design is the most comfortable on the market and took so much time, research and money to create but its clear that he took the easier avenue with the bobbin placement and what he did is nothing special or unique like he implies it to be. 

"I have done a few things different than any other company and the feel of our Multi is the most comfortable and it feels and sounds right"

I fail to see what exactly he has done 'different'? It seems pretty basic to me.


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## canuck brian (Nov 25, 2015)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I get your point, but I'm just a guitarist and imho this is getting a bit too longwinded for such a minor detail, I'm sure the guitar sounds just fine. Perhaps better to write Jeff, hopefully he'll take some mins to answer your questions in detail



. There were numerous posts about it so I posted in detail.

Im trying to find more information, but are all the guitars using the Hipshot Solo bridges? I know Hipshot is working with a couple of companies already on the fanned bridge plates (Dean already did one with them years ago on the RC-8 fanned models) so with Carvin only having one particular fan per model so far, they technically could go with a standardized plate...but that would incur more costs against the Solo's, which can be used on anything.....hmm... Someone mentioned it to me previously, but i can't remember the outcome.


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## Tom Drinkwater (Nov 25, 2015)

I think the issue here isn't so much the angle of the pickup or any of the design elements of the guitar so much as the complete disrespect to Carvin's customers and to the builders that essentially paved Carvin's way into this end of the market much in the same way Carvin paved our way into the custom guitar market to begin with. Big thanks to Mark Keisel for that. 

I don't know Jeff but I have owned a bunch of Carvin products so that makes me a customer. One of my favorite guitars that I own is a 2002 DC135 that my wife bought for me through the custom shop in 2002. I have been a huge fan of Carvin since the early 90's and was a champion of the brand right here on SSO before their hype train got going and I just find the BS completely insulting. 

I suppose it's just marketing BS but if you spend any time outside of this forum you'll find a couple of our favorite former members steering the Keisel guerrilla marketing campaign hard on FB so do with that info what you will.


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## Halowords (Nov 25, 2015)

FrancescoFiligoi said:


> I get your point, but I'm just a guitarist and imho this is getting a bit too longwinded for such a minor detail, I'm sure the guitar sounds just fine. Perhaps better to write Jeff, hopefully he'll take some mins to answer your questions in detail



Not that anybody asked me, but...I would agree the pickup angle is a minor detail, and if it sounds good then great. If it lets you swap out pickups to suit your needs/tastes, even better.

I do think a huge part of it is Jeff seemed to take a bit of a shot at virtually every other builder who has done this to make Carvin/Kiesel look special or better. I can appreciate marketing and of course he thinks what they are doing is the best. But to start off more or less slagging everybody else while justifying certain choices based on things that are seemingly easy to disprove seems a bit odd.

I will say, I think the multiscale Aries is fine. I do not love the bevel, but do not hate it outright either. O.k., I kind of hate it and I would not ever order one with a different/figured top. it looks like something out of a Dali nightmare painting, or the image that distorts when you drag it and are low on RAM, which may _sound_ cool but I personally hate that. If it was smoother and done with a two-piece body so that the grain matched (and you have something like the antiques Ash treatment, that looks lovely) and it all flowed together, I would be fine with it.

Short-version, I am not trying to be a Debbie Downer. It's great Carvin is getting into multiscales and headless. It is just a bit disappointing to get the impression they are kind of dissing the others who have dove in first and made it work, and some of their justifications have been kind of hard to buy. Hopefully they eventually expand out to better fill the niche that is developing for headless multiscale guitars with more normal-looking tops and 8- or 9-string options.

-Cheers


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## Pikka Bird (Nov 25, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> This is completely false. There are no "custom pickup molds." There are baseplates either laser cut or CNC'd out, unless they went with BK route and used custom metal baseplates (like a standard BK). Even if they did that, they could just make a second one at minimal costs (i work in a machine shop as well btw). They use identical parts. The only thing different is the baseplate and the bobbins. Tooling cost difference is actually ZERO. They can be cut from the same sheet at the exact same time whether it be on a CNC router mill or on a laser cutter. If i can get a tiny company in California to make little me a set of custom built, perfectly angled pickups for under $200 US over and over, Carvin can use their in house designers and multimillion dollar CNC setup to properly make them considering that they're already built in house.
> 
> Example - laser cut bobbins. Unless you're using a standardized baseplate (Duncan, BK, Nord), this is how fanned fret pickups are properly made with proper angles. This requires zero tool changes (if cut on a CNC router instead of a laser cutter) and can actually be done in the same program, which is how I cut mine. The angles on these are slightly different and fit perfectly in the cavities they were built for.



I don't think I'm way off in assuming that Carvin doesn't go for laser cut flatwork but might rather go for cast plastic bobbins like these:






...which would require custom molds, I suppose. However, as already mentioned a couple of times if BKP has a standard angle, and these correspond with that then that's just nifty. The problem (which I'm sensing is your main gripe, Canuck) is Jeff's nonsensical explanations.


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## Hollowway (Nov 25, 2015)

Yeah, I think those of us that take issue here are in agreement that the main point of irritation is not any particular aspect of the guitar, but that he goes on and on about how awesome his multi is, and everyone else's sucks. But all he's designed is a meh standard fanned guitar. The fact that Carvin is doing fans is awesome. But the guitar itself is just about the most generic sort of fanned instrument you could make. Zero innovation there. Which is fine, but let's not go on and on about how much research went into all of this innovation. And there has been plenty of innovation in fanned instruments and design, from what Tom of OAF, Eric from XEN, Brian Bowes, and Dan (from Oni) have shown over the last few years.


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## canuck brian (Nov 25, 2015)

Pikka Bird said:


> I don't think I'm way off in assuming that Carvin doesn't go for laser cut flatwork but might rather go for cast plastic bobbins like these:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep - that would be the gripe (and the "ours are better" thing).

If that's the route they're going down, I'd happily eat my own words. Having a mould CNC'd out would, in fact, cost that 5 figures Jeff was talking about. Thats a lot of fanned Aries guitars to make up that cost, so i really didn't think that's how they'd be made. Again, i could be totally wrong and I'll wear the dunce hat. When i have a guitar with pole pieces that don't align properly, it just drives me up the wall.


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## FrancescoFiligoi (Nov 25, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> Yep - that would be the gripe (and the "ours are better" thing).
> 
> If that's the route they're going down, I'd happily eat my own words. Having a mould CNC'd out would, in fact, cost that 5 figures Jeff was talking about. Thats a lot of fanned Aries guitars to make up that cost, so i really didn't think that's how they'd be made. Again, i could be totally wrong and I'll wear the dunce hat. When i have a guitar with pole pieces that don't align properly, it just drives me up the wall.



Ah then that makes sense! I'm glad we clarified it  Btw yes, it's Hipshot single saddles, basically Hipshot builds a lot of the hardware newer Carvin/Kiesel guitars mount.


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 25, 2015)

"A ton of research" = "Oh .... Ibanez is doing one now, make a version of whatever they're making and spice it up with some .... talking. I'm headed back to the race track."


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## Matt08642 (Nov 25, 2015)

xwmucradiox said:


> "A ton of research" = "Oh .... Ibanez is doing one now, make a version of whatever they're making and spice it up with some .... talking. I'm headed back to the race track."



"Just uhhh dye the fretboard blue and make it some bull.... wood that no one else uses."


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## JmCastor (Nov 25, 2015)

Matt08642 said:


> "Just uhhh dye the fretboard blue and make it some bull.... wood that no one else uses."



I think that bit about the wood is kinda a low blow, All of the wood choices are certainly welcome.


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## Quiet Coil (Nov 26, 2015)

Is there a general consensus on whether or not standard "un-slanted" pickups with blade/ rail poles would still provide adequate coverage of the 1st and 6th/7th strings?

I'm specifically thinking of Fluence Modern's in this case, though I suppose one could go up a size (8 string pickup for 7 multi scale) at the cost of routing the sh!te out of the body.


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## Greenbrettiscool (Nov 26, 2015)

... So anyways, I played them both today and they are incredible. The heels feel even better on them than the regular Aries, thin necks, perfect tightness and overall super comfy. I don't get all the fuss over a few millimeters, it sounded huge, tight and like any other high end fan frets I've owned. 
I think they didn't move the bridge pickup slightly lower because they probably didn't want to make 2 different sized humbuckers and any more adjusting would probably not allow the poles to line up. It's probably the most cost effective thing they went for IMO.
But it all together felt and played incredible, I ordered my buckeye AM7 right after I played them.


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## sartorious (Nov 26, 2015)

Noisy Humbucker said:


> I'm specifically thinking of Fluence Modern's in this case, though I suppose one could go up a size (8 string pickup for 7 multi scale) at the cost of routing the sh!te out of the body.



On a similar note, what options are there for pickup replacement? The routes are shaped like parallelograms. What pickup manufacturers accommodate that?


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## xwmucradiox (Nov 26, 2015)

JmCastor said:


> I think that bit about the wood is kinda a low blow, All of the wood choices are certainly welcome.



ZEBRAWOOD FRETBOARDS ON EVERYTHING!


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## Fathand (Nov 26, 2015)

A mm here, a mm there, who cares. They make it look good and it's our job to make it sound good! (kudos to Stephen Carpenter for that insight )


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## technomancer (Nov 26, 2015)

*All right guys I get hating on the cult of personality marketing machine that is Kiesel but enough is enough. If you want to talk about the guitars cool, if you want to pointlessly bash / troll you're going to get some time off.*


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 26, 2015)

All I know, is I will be buying the first neckthru MS 7 model they make (and to be clear, I wasnt one of the ones clamoring for FF, I don't really care about them, but I do want to try one. I hope they sell a ton!)


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## kevdes93 (Nov 26, 2015)

I specd out a nice solid color 6 string, im done with 7s for now and i wanted a cool 6 for AGCFAD. Now I just gotta wait for tax season...


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## Hollowway (Nov 26, 2015)

Greenbrettiscool said:


> ... So anyways, I played them both today and they are incredible. The heels feel even better on them than the regular Aries, thin necks, perfect tightness and overall super comfy. I don't get all the fuss over a few millimeters, it sounded huge, tight and like any other high end fan frets I've owned.
> I think they didn't move the bridge pickup slightly lower because they probably didn't want to make 2 different sized humbuckers and any more adjusting would probably not allow the poles to line up. It's probably the most cost effective thing they went for IMO.
> But it all together felt and played incredible, I ordered my buckeye AM7 right after I played them.
> View attachment 48918



Buckeye?! Is that a customer-supplied-wood order, or does Jeff have some there?


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## ramses (Nov 26, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> Buckeye?! Is that a customer-supplied-wood order, or does Jeff have some there?



You can now order Buckeye for any Carvin guitar. However, currently it requires a 50% deposit, and no returns (unless there is an actual defect).


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## Hollowway (Nov 26, 2015)

ramses said:


> You can now order Buckeye for any Carvin guitar. However, currently it requires a 50% deposit, and no returns (unless there is an actual defect).



Holy crap, that's awesome. A lot of the stuff Carvin has done recently I can take or leave, but I love that they're using all this fancy wood.


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## Krucifixtion (Nov 26, 2015)

I've been putting aside money for a Vader 7 for awhile. It's awesome that they decided to do a multi-scale, but I am not that into the Aries line. I actually would be interested in a 6 string multi-scale aries, because 25.5-26.5 for a 6 string would work really well for the tunings I do on 6 string, but my goal is to build a really awesome Vader 7.

This really makes me want to hold out longer in hopes for a Vader fanned fret model. If I could do everything I was wanting to do with a Vader build and have 25.5 - 27" fan as well it would be the ultimate guitar for me.


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## Hollowway (Nov 26, 2015)

I wonder if they'll release a shorter scale AM6? For traditional tuning, a 24.75-26 or so would be a pretty cool Gibson/Fender compromise. Seeing as how loads of Carvin guys are older, more traditional guitar players, that might really interest them.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 26, 2015)

25-26" would be a good guess if they were to offer another 6 option since they have lots of 25" guitars.

If the 7s were 25.5 - 26.5 I would have ordered 2 straight away. That's the problem with fanned frets since everyone wants something different.


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## Greenbrettiscool (Nov 26, 2015)

I think the Buckeye is limited tho, I was told when I was there that there is only a limited amount of it and the pile wasn't that big.. I would of waited to order it but since they told me there was not a lot of it, I went ahead and went for it. It looks incredible in person.


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## Hollowway (Nov 26, 2015)

Greenbrettiscool said:


> I think the Buckeye is limited tho, I was told when I was there that there is only a limited amount of it and the pile wasn't that big.. I would of waited to order it but since they told me there was not a lot of it, I went ahead and went for it. It looks incredible in person.



What's the upcharge on it?


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## Greenbrettiscool (Nov 26, 2015)

^ it's $600 plus the 50% down. It seemed like a lot, but I chalked it up to "well it's only $100 more than the KOA top".. Haha


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## mphsc (Nov 26, 2015)

^ good call. To bad the carve is so severe but the limba should top it off nicely.


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## Greenbrettiscool (Nov 26, 2015)

Thanks, and yea that's what I'm hoping for so the black limba will sort of mesh and match some with the buckeye. We'll see in 10-11 weeks they told me dang it, I guess it's gonna be another "wait till the hardware comes in" situation :/


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## MetalHead40 (Nov 27, 2015)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Not really because the Ibanez FF models are using soapbar EMGS at two different angles so it will leave a lot of room. Also if they have triangle or square tabs and what angle they slant the pickups at. I'm not sure you can just drop in a pickup that is at a different degree slant.
> 
> If they do however it gives people another option when buying fanned pickups for their future custom guitars.
> 
> ...



I was pretty stoked about this new addition and started really considering it as I'm getting close to building An A6 or an A7 but then I thought about the pickups and the fact that you probably can't drop in standard pups to replace the stock ones. By the looks of it I'm right. Damn! I liked the idea of proper tension and lighter strings but I don't want to be limited on pickup choices.


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## Hollowway (Nov 27, 2015)

Wow, $600 is pretty steep. But, I guess it is out of the routine for them.


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## canuck brian (Nov 27, 2015)

Greenbrettiscool said:


> ^ it's $600 plus the 50% down. It seemed like a lot, but I chalked it up to "well it's only $100 more than the KOA top".. Haha



Are you allowed to send in your own wood anymore? The wood distributor local to me that ships worldwide has several bookmatched buckeye burl tops for around $200 CDN (so currnently $150 US). They'd probably stlll upcharge some to work with the stuff - it's so fragile.

(edit - sorry for monster picture size...how do you re-size that?)


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## narad (Nov 27, 2015)

I think he noticed that Suhr puts a truly massive upcharge on those buckeye moderns and he might be able to cash in similarly. It looks fantastic on that Aries, but I kind of feel that when you put it down as a $600 option part of you knows you're trying to pull one over on people who don't know how much that wood actually costs. "Wow, crazy colors and patterns - must be pricey!"


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## Halowords (Nov 27, 2015)

FWIW, this...



Krucifixtion said:


> This really makes me want to hold out longer in hopes for a Vader fanned fret model. If I could do everything I was wanting to do with a Vader build and have 25.5 - 27" fan as well it would be the ultimate guitar for me.



...and this...



Hollowway said:


> I wonder if they'll release a shorter scale AM6? For traditional tuning, a 24.75-26 or so would be a pretty cool Gibson/Fender compromise.



...sounds like a winning combo. Or a slightly-longer 24.75"-27" scale with an offset Vader body (kind of like how the bass side of the body on say a Strandberg is a bit longer to match the longer scale, both the physics and the aesthetics) would make for a nice seven-string Gibson/Fender/baritone compromise.

I would be legitimately interested in that. As an, ahem, older and more traditional player who still likes to branch out.

-Cheers


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## technomancer (Nov 27, 2015)

narad said:


> I think he noticed that Suhr puts a truly massive upcharge on those buckeye moderns and he might be able to cash in similarly. It looks fantastic on that Aries, but I kind of feel that when you put it down as a $600 option part of you knows you're trying to pull one over on people who don't know how much that wood actually costs. "Wow, crazy colors and patterns - must be pricey!"



With that stuff it's not the price of the wood it's that it is a bitch to work with. If you look at it wrong it cracks and IIRC is very hard so pretty much everyplace that does it has a large upcharge on it.

Fortunately I've never been bitten by that particular bug, just don't care for how the stuff looks.


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## canuck brian (Nov 27, 2015)

technomancer said:


> With that stuff it's not the price of the wood it's that it is a bitch to work with. If you look at it wrong it cracks and IIRC is very hard so pretty much everyplace that does it has a large upcharge on it.
> 
> Fortunately I've never been bitten by that particular bug, just don't care for how the stuff looks.



It smells like a fart when you cut and sand it too.  

It's really really really soft. I could probably carve it with my thumb given enough time. You need to stabilize the wood with CA glue, epoxy or a crap load of sealer. I didn't mean to post the picture to say Carvin upcharging too much (i dont' think they are), I was just pointing out another option to get the wood with Carvin saying they have limited stock.


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## technomancer (Nov 27, 2015)

canuck brian said:


> It smells like a fart when you cut and sand it too.
> 
> It's really really really soft. I could probably carve it with my thumb given enough time. You need to stabilize the wood with CA glue, epoxy or a crap load of sealer. I didn't mean to post the picture to say Carvin upcharging too much (i dont' think they are), I was just pointing out another option to get the wood with Carvin saying they have limited stock.



Ah ok so I had it backwards... I just remember hearing it's a bitch to work with.

Not surprising it smells like fart, it looks like sewage


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## SnowfaLL (Nov 27, 2015)

And I'm pretty sure you can still get your own wood supplied and used, for an upcharge (as of July, it was possible) - Its usually between $200-400 for using your own wood, and the risk that the wood you have won't work/will crack in the case of this burl.

I'm going that option on my next build most likely. Can save you some money and get you to see the piece of wood before hand. Compared to the prices of wood that Suhr charges (or most other companies), Carvin's are reasonable.


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## olejason (Nov 27, 2015)

Does it smell so bad because it is formed when the tree is infected with a virus or fungus?


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## VigilSerus (Nov 28, 2015)

olejason said:


> Does it smell so bad because it is formed when the tree is infected with a virus or fungus?



Probably. It's basically tree cancer.


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## Tom Drinkwater (Nov 29, 2015)

I wonder if Carvin will offer a ms 6 with the single coil spaced humbuckers. The very first multiscale I finished in Jan. 2009 was a neck thru six string with a 1" fan loaded with the Carvin TBH60's and the Carvin Active Preamp. Sounded siiiiiiiiiiiiiick. They AP11's are also great, it would be nice to see those in there too. There are not enough single coil multiscale guitars out there!!


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## AngstRiddenDreams (Nov 29, 2015)

ShadowsfeaR said:


> Probably. It's basically tree cancer.



So if I blow cigarette smoke at the maple in my backyard could I be creating my own burl stockpile?


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## Agramal (Nov 29, 2015)

Wonder if Kiesel will ever offer a model with an Evertune bridge...


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## Quiet Coil (Nov 29, 2015)

As soon as I can figure out whether or not a standard sized rail/blade humbucker will work this will move to the front of the line for my next ERG, maybe even my next sixer!


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## HaloHat (Nov 29, 2015)

Agramal said:


> Wonder if Kiesel will ever offer a model with an Evertune bridge...



Jeff said in one of his videos "not unless Evertune makes changes to the construction to the current bridge". He didn't like the change in tone the current bridge gave the guitars he tried them on [he said he has built guitars using the current bridge]. So it is a definite maybe lol, like the multi-scales.


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## Agramal (Nov 29, 2015)

HaloHat said:


> Jeff said in one of his videos "not unless Evertune makes changes to the construction to the current bridge". He didn't like the change in tone the current bridge gave the guitars he tried them on [he said he has built guitars using the current bridge]. So it is a definite maybe lol, like the multi-scales.



Interesting. I can see his point, but for me, I'm willing to sacrifice some aspects in tone to have the advantage of always being in tune.


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## HaloHat (Nov 29, 2015)

Agramal said:


> Interesting. I can see his point, but for me, I'm willing to sacrifice some aspects in tone to have the advantage of always being in tune.



The down side is Jeff did not seem too interested in the EverTune bridge, at least not in the video he did a few months ago.

The upside I suppose is he does not have a wiggle stick on any of his personal guitars that I have seen and he does seem to respond to high volumes of customer requests, eventually, in a lot of cases.

Downside is Jeff says "I have to believe in the product" "I have to love the product", which I think is not the smartest way to go seeing as he is not going to buy all the guitars he builds and needs to make a diverse group of guitarists feel Kiesel builds quality guitars that fits their needs regardless of whether Jeff would like that particular feature.

Upside is I don't care what Jeff says, he IS about the money, is likely already a millionaire via other investments his family is involved in as well as the VERY profitable guitar building business and loves racing cars at least if not more than building guitars. If the home he lives in is under a million I'd be surprised and not far off from it I am sure. Not saying that is a bad thing at all. Just saying I cringe every time I hear him say that "not about the money" line. It ain't Kiesel now instead of Carvin for grins... and since Jeff took over the prices on a majority of options has at least doubled not to mention $6000+ "Kiesel Editions". With some rare exceptions exotic woods are not all that expensive, I know I have a few guitars, including Carvins made from them and I am well informed on exotic wood prices in the USA.


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## Chokey Chicken (Nov 30, 2015)

Just figured I'd point out that you don't need to own or want a product to believe in it. A lot of things are fads and non-profitable in the long run. No sense in spending heaps of money and time investing in tech that'll be useless in five years. Evertune and TT frets are two examples of things I don't see as a profitable option, and thus foolish to invest in the tooling and training required to equip them.


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## Agramal (Nov 30, 2015)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Just figured I'd point out that you don't need to own or want a product to believe in it. A lot of things are fads and non-profitable in the long run. No sense in spending heaps of money and time investing in tech that'll be useless in five years. Evertune and TT frets are two examples of things I don't see as a profitable option, and thus foolish to invest in the tooling and training required to equip them.



TT frets, sure. Gotta disagree about the Evertune bridge though. We've seen it added to a number of LTD guitars, and now Ola's Washburn sig. I predict we'll see it on more and more production models in 2016.


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## celticelk (Nov 30, 2015)

HaloHat said:


> Downside is Jeff says "I have to believe in the product" "I have to love the product", which I think is not the smartest way to go seeing as he is not going to buy all the guitars he builds and needs to make a diverse group of guitarists feel Kiesel builds quality guitars that fits their needs regardless of whether Jeff would like that particular feature.



It seems to be working out well for him so far. If you want something they don't make, you can always go somewhere else - it's not like Carvin is the only guitar builder on the planet.


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## Chokey Chicken (Nov 30, 2015)

Agramal said:


> TT frets, sure. Gotta disagree about the Evertune bridge though. We've seen it added to a number of LTD guitars, and now Ola's Washburn sig. I predict we'll see it on more and more production models in 2016.



Sort of true. They're still very much niche, and not nearly as in demand as fanned frets, headless, or even 8 string guitars. Even the hype that is there is very quiet. For example, few, if anybody, demands/demanded them every time kiesel posted a "what do you want to see next" status on Facebook. Meanwhile, plenty people wanted headless and fanned. I'm not gonna argue that Evertune is silly or useless, but I just don't think there's that big of a demand for them, and I don't see that changing a whole lot in the near future. I personally really want to try one, and may this coming tax season.


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## HaloHat (Dec 5, 2015)

celticelk said:


> It seems to be working out well for him so far. If you want something they don't make, you can always go somewhere else - it's not like Carvin is the only guitar builder on the planet.



What is working for Jeff is he keeps doing what he not long before tells people he is not going to do lol. But you are correct, that is working well for the company and for those who were asking for multi-scale and told never, headless, colored fret boards and told no etc. Now if I were someone who spent my hard earned cash on something different because Jeff a month before said he was never going to do "x" then I might be bummed. But then there is the classified section here eh ha.

Pretty much what I posted on the Kiesel-Carvin forum, second post down. But thanks for the input.  
I own guitars from 5 different builders at the moment fwiw. If your sensing some inner "damnit Jeff" on my part, yes it is true. I'm bummed that Jeff is not willing to go with customer provided woods [after inspection and approval from Kiesel-Carvin and following their previous procedures and limitations] like his Dad was. Jeff is pretty much ok with it if your willing to send him an extra $2000 - $4000 with the wood your having delivered to their door. Yep, that is his choice, I know. 

I have high hopes that Jeff will add Wenge to the list of woods available. There is a Vader 8 posted with a Wenge top on Jeff's FB and at the Kiesel forum under a "Wenge" thread very recently. If Kiesel offered Wenge, Bloodwood and Lacewood I swear I would never ask to send them wood I source again. Plus I would buy more Kiesel guitars of course.

CarvinGuitars.com BBS :: View topic - Multi. Scale. Is. Here.

http://www.carvinbbs.com/viewtopic.php?t=46590


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## olejason (Dec 5, 2015)

Man that bevel on such a nice piece of wenge is just ridiculous.


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## bschmidt (Dec 10, 2015)

HaloHat said:


> Upside is I don't care what Jeff says, he IS about the money, is likely already a millionaire via other investments his family is involved in as well as the VERY profitable guitar building business and loves racing cars at least if not more than building guitars. If the home he lives in is under a million I'd be surprised and not far off from it I am sure. Not saying that is a bad thing at all. Just saying I cringe every time I hear him say that "not about the money" line. It ain't Kiesel now instead of Carvin for grins... and since Jeff took over the prices on a majority of options has at least doubled not to mention $6000+ "Kiesel Editions". With some rare exceptions exotic woods are not all that expensive, I know I have a few guitars, including Carvins made from them and I am well informed on exotic wood prices in the USA.



Absolutely. I've noticed the wood prices go up several hundred dollars since ~June, and ya, the name change + the really fancy expensive stuff and all the selfies and stuff really scream 'I'm trying to make myself a music celebrity' to me. When he did an AMA a few months back, he cherry picked every question... He replied to all the 'CARVIN RUELZ' posts but anything asking a legit question or voicing a concern was ignored. It left me very disenfranchised on a brand I was stoked on. 

The worst was when he posted a selfie with this extra-cringy quote:


> "I'm not doing this to make money. I'm doing this because it's my passion to create a high quality product."


 It's not a beautiful guitar or a personalized instrument or seeing someone's dream become reality... its a high quality product



HaloHat said:


> What is working for Jeff is he keeps doing what he not long before tells people he is not going to do lol. But you are correct, that is working well for the company and for those who were asking for multi-scale and told never, headless, colored fret boards and told no etc. Now if I were someone who spent my hard earned cash on something different because Jeff a month before said he was never going to do "x" then I might be bummed. But then there is the classified section here eh ha.


I've gotten burned by this a few times: headless 8, baritone 6, non-superstrat 7's, multiscale, binding options (my GAS is out of control)

I'm now holding out for a multiscale vader. hopefully there is enough demand/aries sales for them to do it


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## SnowfaLL (Dec 10, 2015)

the answer I got back from Chris this week on providing my own burl top (which was no) was pretty ....ty.. I almost considered going to another company for my CT7 honestly, but Jeff gave me a good price on something else I wanted so ill probably just get it. Just sucks I'm paying $1000+ for a random chance at a good piece of wood. 

No company is perfect obviously.


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## russmuller (Dec 11, 2015)

Until my Ormsby shows up, I am going to spend every payday on the AM7 builder.


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## olejason (Dec 11, 2015)

Has anyone received a response about the cost of rosewood necks? Carvin email response for questions is so terrible.


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## mbardu (Dec 11, 2015)

olejason said:


> Has anyone received a response about the cost of rosewood necks? Carvin email response for questions is so terrible.



I believe it's 300$.


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## ShredFever (Dec 11, 2015)

mbardu said:


> I believe it's 300$.



Yep, can confirm. Ordered one two weeks ago.


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## olejason (Dec 11, 2015)

Nice, you get an Aries with rosewood?


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## ShredFever (Dec 11, 2015)

olejason said:


> Nice, you get an Aries with rosewood?



Yep. AM7, Earth finish.


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## insaneshawnlane (Dec 12, 2015)

ShredFever said:


> Yep. AM7, Earth finish.



What is the earth finish? Can't say I've heard of that.

Either way, looking forward to seeing a rosewood neck on an Aries


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## mbardu (Dec 12, 2015)

insaneshawnlane said:


> What is the earth finish? Can't say I've heard of that.
> 
> Either way, looking forward to seeing a rosewood neck on an Aries



"Brown" version of the fire/arctic:


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## laxu (Dec 18, 2015)

Very close to ordering an AM7 in blueburst quilt with a natural color mahogany back, plain maple neck with flamed maple fretboard / quilt maple headstock. Just as soon as Kiesel bothers answering their emails that is!

Based on pics and videos they look impeccably built and seem to sound pretty great at least for metal (still haven't heard anyone play lower distortion settings on these) and I liked Kiesel's factory video on YouTube - automation for consistency and human hands where they're really needed.

Since I live all the way in Finland it's a bit more of a risk for me and obviously VAT and customs taxes jack up the price a fair bit. Still should be faster and cheaper than going for local luthiers.

That said, I really hope to get it right the first time (right looks, great tone, not too much weight) so I don't have to make use of their 10 day return policy since shipping back and forth is expensive.

Took me a while to get used to that asymmetric Aries top and I still think it requires exactly the right wood and finish choices to look good. Solid colors look best but for figured tops there needs to be good enough contrasts between the back and top or alternatively the same colors so they blend well.

I did a crude Photoshop mockup for what I would like my guitar to look like:


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## dirtool (Dec 19, 2015)

ShredFever said:


> Yep. AM7, Earth finish.




waiting your NGD


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## ferret (Dec 20, 2015)

Laxu: Your photoshop looks closer to their Aquaburst. Their "Blueburst" option is a blue center with black edges.


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## laxu (Dec 20, 2015)

ferret said:


> Laxu: Your photoshop looks closer to their Aquaburst. Their "Blueburst" option is a blue center with black edges.



You're right, it's been aquaburst all along. Just typed the wrong thing.


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