# Where does bass stop and guitar begin?



## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

Interesting issue given that most of us here play guitars that have the potential to reach down into the same low end as the bass, and that there are a few bassists on the board who play instruments that extend into the guitar's range or higher.

Are we actually reaching the point where bass and guitar are actually different facets of the same instrument? There are plenty of guys who employ slap technique on the guitar, such as Christopher Godin, Scott Mishoe, Buckethead and Reggie Wooten, and tapping's gone from being strictly a guitarist's thing to being taught in most bass classes now.
If you're into solo jazz guitar, then you'll need to be able to play walking basslines in the same way as a jazz bassist would, and I've seen several extended range bassists (Todd Johnson immediately springs to mind) who've adapted the same approach to bass, walking while comping chords on the extra high strings.

Discuss.


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## Desecrated (Jan 31, 2007)

Guitar has more distortion, 
jazzguitars have bigger body


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

There are plenty of bassists, such as Billy Sheehan, Chris Squire and Marco Hietala, who use lots of distortion, and there are bass guitars now based on the old-school semi-acoustic designs.


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## XEN (Jan 31, 2007)

With most other stringed instruments the classification is by scale length and not by number of strings. A 7 string violin is still considered a violin even though it can handle the range of a viola and a cello. Classical guitarists still consider their instruments guitars, no matter how many strings they have, unless the extra strings are strictly used for open picking and not fretting, at which point they are referred to as harp guitars.

I think that for the most part a modern guitar is considered a guitar if it has a scale length between 23" and 25.5" and a bass would be anything from 30" to 36". Generally anything in between is considered baritone, regardless of the number of strings. The issue arises when we start adding more strings into the mix, and the pre-established roles of each instrument begin to dissolve. The question then would be, 'How many strings do you have to add to a guitar, baritone guitar, or bass guitar, before it has to be called by another name altogether?' 

Al Caldwell comes to mind. He demonstrates on his many myspace pages that his instrument can fill every role in the band (except live vocals), including keyboards, drums, and percussion with his guitar synth rig. I imagine that if there were three Als in the band, one could handle lead guitar parts, the second one could tackle the rhythm parts, the third could hold down the low end, and all three could be playing identical instruments. Of course AL4 could take on the keyboard parts, and AL5 could be the entire rhythm section, but that's not the point.

The role distinction can become slightly more obvious when you consider what the instruments are connected to, and then, taken as a whole, the instrument _RIG_ might define its purpose. However, considering the same "3AL" analogy, the roles could shift mid song, or from song to song, and the distinctions disappear altogether. Imagine AL1 playing a killer lead and then jumping into a bass slap run while AL2 starts to wail away on lead, and AL3 tackles a funky rhythm guitar part, with all three ALs using the identical rigs, but switching to different presets on the gear. The roles of the instruments can be entirely fluid in that case, and defined only by the particular technique employed at the moment of observation.

At a certain point the distinction can only be made by the role each instrument is filling at any given time, and even then, *depending on the style *of music, it is entirely irrelevant. 

(*ducks and covers*) There's more than just metal out there...!  

Here's at AL's bass for S&G:


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

Good post! That's exactly the sort of thing I was talking about!

Remember when Gustaf Helm (sp?) left Meshuggah, and rather than hire a new bassist, Frederik Thordendal would use an octave pedal to play his parts, or play a real bass, and play all his solos on it?

It would be really interesting to have a band that consisted of two guys playing 11 or 12 string instruments and a drummer; assuming they're both proficient in touch playing, as well as traditional bass/guitar techniques, you could cover virtually everything with just that three piece line-up...


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## XEN (Jan 31, 2007)

Now you're discovering my plans!!! LOL


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## OzzyC (Jan 31, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> It would be really interesting to have a band that consisted of two guys playing 11 or 12 string instruments and a drummer; assuming they're both proficient in touch playing, as well as traditional bass/guitar techniques, you could cover virtually everything with just that three piece line-up...


that sounds like it could prove interesting 

itd certainly have a lot more stage presence at my school talent show 

closed-minded ignoramus:what do you play?
me: just a 12 string-
CMI: ive played one of those before...it was a gibson
me: they dont make one like this
:CMI what are you talking about...gibsons the best
me: [action=OzzyC] pulls out instrument to warm up[/action]
CMI: uh...um....i-....i only use _GIBSON _ 6 and 12 strings...uh.... since theyre the best...
me: [action=OzzyC] is no longer listening to the CMI...he need to prepare and CMIs tend to get in the way of that[/action]


 
that would be AWESOME! 

1500


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

You'd probably spend the rest of the evening explaining to people that it's not a sitar!


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## OzzyC (Jan 31, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> You'd probably spend the rest of the evening explaining to people that it's not a sitar!



ive had people ask me if my 7 was a bass...i could really have them confused with one of those


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## metalfiend666 (Jan 31, 2007)

There are a lot of players out there starting to blur the lines, but I think Eric's post sums it up pretty well. I think the primary design basis comes into play too. ie. As 7 string guitarists we're already seriously overlapping the traditional bass range, but our instruments are still designed as guitars. Dood's 7 string bass reaches well up into guitar range, but it's still designed as a bass. Ibanez's 8 string pushes the boundaries still further having a range down to one whole tone above a standard 4 string bass and a 27" scale.

These extended range instruments aren't a new idea at all, throughout history there's been many extended range instruments, they're just finding a home in new styles of music and with a greater number of players.


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

metalfiend666 said:


> There are a lot of players out there starting to blur the lines, but I think Eric's post sums it up pretty well. I think the primary design basis comes into play too. ie. As 7 string guitarists we're already seriously overlapping the traditional bass range, but our instruments are still designed as guitars. Dood's 7 string bass reaches well up into guitar range, but it's still designed as a bass. Ibanez's 8 string pushes the boundaries still further having a range down to one whole tone above a standard 4 string bass and a 27" scale.
> 
> These extended range instruments aren't a new idea at all, throughout history there's been many extended range instruments, they're just finding a home in new styles of music and with a greater number of players.



It's true adding extra strings to instruments isn't a new idea, and that instruments still tend to be designed with a particular role in mind, but like I said in my first post, the guys who play these instruments nowadays are frequently incorporating techniques that go way beyond what the instruments designers may have intended. Whilst the manufacturers may still view their instruments as being one or the other, I'd still say a lot of it's due to the players...

Think of how we'd classify singers; most vocalists will fall very neatly into, for women, alto, mezzo or soprano range, but then you get someone like Diamanda Galas whose voice encompasses all three categories, with the same level of tone and control in each, and whom frequently pushes the boundaries of the singers role and technique. For the record I've read interviews with Diamanda where she says she thinks of herself as a mezzo with upper and lower extensions, but when you hear her sing, that label doesn't seem to do her justice.

With the advances in both instrument technology and technique, it's easy to see guitar/bass being pushed in the same direction...


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## XEN (Jan 31, 2007)

At a certain point, the designations are there so that we have an answer for laymen and non-ERG/ERB players when they ask us what we play. It's way better than an Asperger Syndrome fueled 45 minute exposé on the purposes and benefits of additional strings and frets over the standard and highly outdated norm, and keeps non musicians from giving you this look:  as they scan the area for the nearest fire escape.


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

urklvt said:


> At a certain point, the designations are there so that we have an answer for laymen and non-ERG/ERB players when they ask us what we play. It's way better than an Asperger Syndrome fueled 45 minute exposé on the purposes and benefits of additional strings and frets over the standard and highly outdated norm, and keeps non musicians from giving you this look:  as they scan the area for the nearest fire escape.



 Yeah, there is that to consider...


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## Mastodon (Jan 31, 2007)

In the end they're both transposing instruments, I agree with the idea that it depends on the role each instrument is primarily fulfilling within a song.


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## distressed_romeo (Jan 31, 2007)

That is a practical solution, but how do you classify instruments like Charlie Hunter's 8 string, or the Chapman stick, which can cover multiple roles at once?


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## Durero (Feb 1, 2007)

I completely agree with all the previous posts, and here's my 2¢

When I'm composing I just think of all my available instruments as tools without any particular names or roles. Each has a range and various timbres & articulations available and I use them to recreate the sounds & rhythms I'm imagining in my mind.

When I'm playing I distinguish between bass and guitar entirely by string gage/tension, action, and spacing, but not scale-length. I consistently use very light gage strings on my ERGs so they feel like guitars to me even though their scales extend well into the traditional range of a bass - up to 36". I use a very light touch when I play, so to me an instrument feels like a bass when it has really heavy gage strings, high action, and very wide string spacing.


When I've played gigs with my Raven, almost every time someone has approached me afterwards to either ask me 'is that a bass or guitar?' or just 'what kind of bass is that?' Usually when I tell them it's a guitar they'll still refer to it as a bass later in the same conversation, so I think you're right Eric, most folks go by scale-length to distinguish between the two.


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## Desecrated (Feb 1, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> That is a practical solution, but how do you classify instruments like Charlie Hunter's 8 string, or the Chapman stick, which can cover multiple roles at once?



multi-instruments ???

but I think that people that play does kind of instrument isen´t easy classified in any way, there music is often not easilyy classified into one genre, neither there instruments and so on. 
I like the idea of classifying the instrument after scale lenght, that makes sense.


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## XEN (Feb 1, 2007)

Durero said:


> Usually when I tell them it's a guitar they'll still refer to it as a bass later in the same conversation, so I think you're right Eric, most folks go by scale-length to distinguish between the two.



Yeah, the scale classification is definitely for laymen, and that, you are far from, my brother! I will still think of my 10 as a guitar even though Mike has already told me that it clearly makes me a bass player now!


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## kung_fu (Feb 1, 2007)

Although the guitar and bass have ranges of notes that overlap, the roles of the musicians in a band context still seems to have remained the same.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 1, 2007)

kung_fu said:


> Although the guitar and bass have ranges of notes that overlap, the roles of the musicians in a band context still seems to have remained the same.



I think thats the biggest thing right there, as well.

I mean, if you think about, you can play Viola parts on guitar, as well as some horn parts if you really wanted to. Its not the fact that you have the same notes, its the timber of the instrument and the role it plays in a band context.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 1, 2007)

Even that's started shifting though...think of the nu-metal bands (Korn and Mudvayne spring to mind) where the bass was almost more a lead instrument than the guitar, or bands like Tool and Meshuggah where the two instruments freely trade roles and play parts that don't really sound like either is traditionally supposed to.

Remember Stanley Clarke's bands; how he'd play 'lead guitar' on his picollo or tenor basses, whilst another four-stringer played rhythm?


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## Metal Ken (Feb 1, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Even that's started shifting though...think of the nu-metal bands (Korn and Mudvayne spring to mind) where the bass was almost more a lead instrument than the guitar, or bands like Tool and Meshuggah where the two instruments freely trade roles and play parts that don't really sound like either is traditionally supposed to.
> 
> Remember Stanley Clarke's bands; how he'd play 'lead guitar' on his picollo or tenor basses, whilst another four-stringer played rhythm?



well, thats true. but the general technique and tone of the instruments is still fundamentally different. You dont play a bass or a guitar the same way, for the most part. there's similar techniques, like tapping, touch style, etc, but they're still different on finesse level. You generally wouldnt play a guitar like a bass in the sense that you wouldnt do fingerstyle bass technique on guitar.. i mean you CAN but its not practical with the smaller string spacing.. 

I agree its becoming more and more blurred, but there's still some fundamental differences to how you approach them.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 1, 2007)

There's similar considerations when you compare electric, classical and acoustic guitars though...those require different enough playing styles to be considered different instruments on some levels.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 2, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> You don't play a bass or a guitar the same way.


 
 *hides* You mean I'm *NOT* supposed to!? 

And to that ERB that was posted!!  
Erep for you.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 2, 2007)

All_¥our_Bass;377432 said:


> *hides* You mean I'm *NOT* supposed to!?
> 
> And to that ERB that was posted!!
> Erep for you.



i didnt mean you 'cant', i meant, like i said, the fundamentals of them are different ;p


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## dpm (Feb 2, 2007)

There's one thing missing here. We use the term 'bass' as an abbreviation of it's real name - 'bass guitar'. Essentially they're all guitar family instruments, and even within 'normal' 6 string guitars there are several distinct instrument styles which 'inter-develop' with distinct playing styles.
For instance, there's classical, flamenco, various size steel string flat tops, archtops, solidbodies of various types, etc..... and each distinct type of guitar seems to be more appropriate for a playing style than others. Are the players choosing guitars to suit them? Or have the guitars shaped how people play? I think it's a little of both.


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## metalfiend666 (Feb 2, 2007)

That's a very good point Dan. Now with the advent of midi guitars and the Variax technology things are going even further. Suddenly we can have a solid body guitar sounding like an acoustic, a resonator or even a church organ. At the end of the day they're all tools to creating music, and I say the more variety the better.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Feb 2, 2007)

I think the lines are drawn according to the dynamic of the group of musicians playing together  In such a situation, most "versions" of instruments find their place (or "role") within the end product as a whole.

Let's not forget that it's not just the physical embodiement of the instrument, but the attitude of the person playing it, and their position within the final end product.

To me, that is how the lines are drawn.


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## metalfiend666 (Feb 2, 2007)

Is that a posh way of telling me to shut up and learn my bass parts?


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## dood (Feb 2, 2007)

Hi everyone.. well.. I have been on the board, what seems like 5 minutes and I have been name checked in a previous post already! Thats sooo cool!

To be honest, I haven't a great deal to add that hasn't been said already. My own experiences are that whilst my 7 string 'looks' like a bass and indeed has a range that drops below a 5 or 6er, and reaches up into the guitar range, I have actually had the bass set up to feel a bit more like a tap style instrument. (Although I primarily play it in the more usual bass function.. I'm still learning tap style!!) . I treat my playing from a bass viewpoint but quite often use the instrument to cover pseudo keyboard and rhythm guitar parts. (One of the great things about being in a 3 piece!) - That may change in my next project.. but, really the point I wanted to make is, that despite being tagged 'a bass player', I'd like to think that I can offer more in terms of what is expected of the bass player. Flexibility I guess. I think I just don't like to be forced to do one single thing!


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 2, 2007)

I think where guitar stops and bass begins is a personal experience.

I am from the church of 8 octaves. The bass is a bass guitar just like a bass clarinet,is a clarinet. So the standaerd 6 ,7,8 and 9-string guitars and 4-11-string basses are just pieces of my 12-string,which is like a "Grand Guitar'.
Then there is the question of scale length preferences.
The gap between bass and guitar strings is closing. Before it was "one,or two sizes fits all" , but now each player can choose from many options.

What's left? Not so much the instrument, but what you play on it. I have firend who walks bass on his 7-string guitar,and you know guys play "lead" on those ERBs.I for one play bass and guitar at the same time on my Adler 12.

My good friend Al Caldwell plays his 11-string bass with midi and he is an excellent Banjo player as well. He plays guitar,bass and orchestra on his 11-string.
Just like the keyboard has a 97,88,76,61 and 44 note(keys) version,so now does the guitar.


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## Desecrated (Feb 2, 2007)

Good thing that you came in garry.
Do you still consider yourself a bassplayer even with that monster you have ?


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## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 2, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> i didnt mean you 'cant', i meant, like i said, the fundamentals of them are different ;p


 
I know. I was making a sarcastic comment about my bass playing style.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 2, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> I think where guitar stops and bass begins is a personal experience.
> 
> I am from the church of 8 octaves. The bass is a bass guitar just like a bass clarinet,is a clarinet. So the standaerd 6 ,7,8 and 9-string guitars and 4-11-string basses are just pieces of my 12-string,which is like a "Grand Guitar'.
> Then there is the question of scale length preferences.
> ...



The comparison with keyboard instruments is the main thing I was thinking of when I started this thread. We're reaching the point where the differences between 'guitar family' (how's that for a catch-all term?) instruments is becoming more a question of tone and touch than one of design, in the same way a keyboard player will use a subtly different touch on, say, piano, synthesizer and harpsichord.

I'd say it's all for the best. Think back a century or so, and the guitar and mandolin were treated as a bit of a joke by 'serious' musicians. Nowadays we've got all the possiblities that keyboard, string, brass, percussion, and even electronic musicians have.

It'll be great to see what the next fifty years throws up...


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## Murder Soul (Feb 11, 2007)

So my question is, how do they sound in comparison? I'm a bass player, and I'm getting into guitar because I want to do the things guitars can do, instead of walk bass lines. I would like to be able to do both, but I can't afford a $10,000 custom like Jean Baudin or whoever.


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## Variant (Feb 12, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> I think where guitar stops and bass begins is a personal experience.
> 
> I am from the church of 8 octaves. The bass is a bass guitar just like a bass clarinet,is a clarinet. So the standaerd 6 ,7,8 and 9-string guitars and 4-11-string basses are just pieces of my 12-string,which is like a "Grand Guitar'.
> Then there is the question of scale length preferences.
> ...



You know Gary, being both a guitar player and bass player myself (both seven string... at least until I get my 8-string RG2228), I look at them as having sonically overlapping roles so far as dynamic range is concerned... it's really the tonality (or "personality" if you will) of each that separates one from the other. Generally, a bass will replicate lower notes than the guitar, but there is no reason to reside there at all times. While many can't see the necessity for guitars with extra low strings, or basses with extra high ones, my jazz sensibilities make me think otherwise.

I took note of it last week while enjoying a Thursday night dinner at My Big Fat Greek Restaurant, watching a pretty decent jazz trio. You've got a drummer with pieces from a kick and a full size floor tom, to a 6" cymbal, a bass player with a six string bass (low B to high C), and a piano player with a full grand. For all intensive purposes, the three have a similar (and full) dynamic range to cover and have no qualms about doing so.


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 13, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> Good thing that you came in garry.
> Do you still consider yourself a bassplayer even with that monster you have ?




I consider myself a musician who can be a bassist on any instrument such as left hand piano,Tuba, even play bass lines on a traditional guitar.I've played some "leads" on a bass. I have voiced string quartet writing on m 9+ string instruments. So it's whatever the job or situation calls for. I think of this in terms on my U. F. I. or Unlimited Fingerboard (fretboard) Instrument concept.

The monster simply allows me to have U.F.I. concept in place. Guitar riffs,Bass grooves, touch style two-handed playing. It's my "master controller" that lets me use my bass/guitar/Touch chops.


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## Desecrated (Feb 13, 2007)

You should add a midi to it, would probably be pretty nice. Get 2 outputs so that you can split the signal.


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 13, 2007)

Variant said:


> You know Gary, being both a guitar player and bass player myself (both seven string... at least until I get my 8-string RG2228), I look at them as having sonically overlapping roles so far as dynamic range is concerned... it's really the tonality (or "personality" if you will) of each that separates one from the other. Generally, a bass will replicate lower notes than the guitar, but there is no reason to reside there at all times. While many can't see the necessity for guitars with extra low strings, or basses with extra high ones, my jazz sensibilities make me think otherwise.
> 
> I took note of it last week while enjoying a Thursday night dinner at My Big Fat Greek Restaurant, watching a pretty decent jazz trio. You've got a drummer with pieces from a kick and a full size floor tom, to a 6" cymbal, a bass player with a six string bass (low B to high C), and a piano player with a full grand. For all intensive purposes, the three have a similar (and full) dynamic range to cover and have no qualms about doing so.



I use my 9-string in a jazz trio setting and it is all about how I use the instrument in that setting. Doing what serves the musical situation.

Right now, the instruments are expensive,mainly because of the work involved to make them really sound and play as you would expect them to.

I like creating new grooves that span 6 octaves or playing bass with one hand and "lead" with the other or playing a two handed piano tune.I strive for even tone and volume across 8 octaves which requires new strings and new electronics to be developed and lots of practice.

I like to create bass and guitar parts and use the U.F.I. concepts to make new sounding music. Some players want to get that 1968 Clapton sound or another established guitar or bass sound. Although I like to be able to acheive that sound at times, it's not why I wanted more strings.

I think your comment about going lower on guitar makes sense. You may want to play solo or a duo at some point. That is why I say you are a musician first,who can play guitar,bass or both and you are not limited to just playing guitar or bass and the two never overlap. Right now,prices are higher because the instruments are still developing. And we have to have a concept in order to use such instruments effectively.



Desecrated said:


> You should add a midi to it, would probably be pretty nice. Get 2 outputs so that you can split the signal.



In the future,yes. I am just getting things in focus after two years of getting familiar with the 12-string.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 13, 2007)

Do you reckon it'll ever be possible to build these instruments in such a way that they won't cost thousands of dollars?


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## OzzyC (Feb 13, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Do you reckon it'll ever be possible to build these instruments in such a way that they won't cost thousands of dollars?



i know it wasnt pointed at me but i think it will over time get a bit more affordable as more people discover ERG/ERBs and it becomes a little more mainstream...similar to 8 strings


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## Drew (Feb 14, 2007)

I actually kind of disagree - part of what makes a "bass" a "bass" and part of what makes a "guitar" a "guitar" is of course the range, but a lot of it is also playing style and "vocabulary". 

I mean, look at it this way, Gary - how much time do you spend playing wiith a pick and strumming open G chords? Sure, you have the range to do so, but when's the last time you picked up your "UFI" and strummed the changes to "Dead Flowers" or "You Can't Always Get What You Want"? I mean, you could argue that this is because you wouldn't WANT to play something like that if you had to, but realistically, if I were to pick up your bass, I guarantee you I wouldn't do that. Whereas, on occasion I'll do some slap stuff on my guitars (it sounds kind of cool on an acoustic, especially if you tune down) but that's not really a focus for me (nor is it for a lot of people), and partly due to the higher tuning it sounds more like I'm appropriating a bass technique as an effect for a guitar. 

I agree that the gap is closer when we're talking fingerstyle or touchstyle - certainly if you listen to the new wave of acoustic players who are doing a lot of slapping and two-handed tapping on their guitars, you can see similarities. But for more traditional guitar techniques, I don't know too many bassists of however many strings who are playing through Marshalls and doing sweep arpeggios and fast alternate picked runs, you know? 

This is actually a bit of a pet peeve of mine, where you get all these guitarists who get very elitist and snobbish about how many of their influences are not guitarists. And I mean, on some level that's cool - I really dig the sound of a sarod and I'll practice copping some of that vibe every once in a while. It's nice to add something unexpected to a peice every now and then, and it helps you think outside the box. At the same time, I picked up the guitar because I loved the sound of powerchords and blues licks. In short, I love the sound of a guitar. Part of being a musician who plays the guitar, I would argue, is to embrace the fact that while you're a musician, you're ALSO a guitarist. The guitar has a certain vocabulary that makes it uniquely a "guitar" and while it's certainly cool to step outside that or add to it, you also have to respect the fact that it exists. 

A better analogy would be this - there are a lot of words of French origin in the English language. A sprinkling here and there adds freshness and a new element to your vocabulary, and used judiciously can add interest and excitement. Yet, you would never write exclusively in French and then say you were writing in English, would you?


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 14, 2007)

Interesting perspective. 

There are some bassists who use picks (either exclusively or occasionally) and play with a very guitaristic style;

John Alderete
Bob Daisley
Joey DeMaio
Andy West

I've seen quite a few guys, such as Adagio's Franck Hermanny, who play fingerstyle, but have adapted guitar players' sweep arpeggios for the bass.


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## Desecrated (Feb 14, 2007)

Drew said:


> I actually kind of disagree - part of what makes a "bass" a "bass" and part of what makes a "guitar" a "guitar" is of course the range, but a lot of it is also playing style and "vocabulary".
> 
> I mean, look at it this way, Gary - how much time do you spend playing wiith a pick and strumming open G chords? Sure, you have the range to do so, but when's the last time you picked up your "UFI" and strummed the changes to "Dead Flowers" or "You Can't Always Get What You Want"? I mean, you could argue that this is because you wouldn't WANT to play something like that if you had to, but realistically, if I were to pick up your bass, I guarantee you I wouldn't do that. Whereas, on occasion I'll do some slap stuff on my guitars (it sounds kind of cool on an acoustic, especially if you tune down) but that's not really a focus for me (nor is it for a lot of people), and partly due to the higher tuning it sounds more like I'm appropriating a bass technique as an effect for a guitar.
> 
> ...




There is also stuff in french that not exist in english, but with gary´s "UFI" you have evertyhing a bass and a guitar has, it is as if he would speak "fringlish". It´s very hard to drawn a line in the extreme ereas, what you say works vey well on a steretype guitarist and a stereotype bassplayer, but when we have guys using both bass and guitar techniques on instruments that are both bass and guitars, 10 strings and above, it gets very hard to say where bass stops and guitar begin.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 14, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> There is also stuff in french that not exist in english, but with gary´s "UFI" you have evertyhing a bass and a guitar has, it is as if he would speak "fringlish". It´s very hard to drawn a line in the extreme ereas, what you say works vey well on a steretype guitarist and a stereotype bassplayer, but when we have guys using both bass and guitar techniques on instruments that are both bass and guitars, 10 strings and above, it gets very hard to say where bass stops and guitar begin.



You could also look at the UFI concept as being like people who are fluent in more than one language...


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 15, 2007)

Drew said:


> I actually kind of disagree - part of what makes a "bass" a "bass" and part of what makes a "guitar" a "guitar" is of course the range, but a lot of it is also playing style and "vocabulary".
> 
> I mean, look at it this way, Gary - how much time do you spend playing wiith a pick and strumming open G chords? Sure, you have the range to do so, but when's the last time you picked up your "UFI" and strummed the changes to "Dead Flowers" or "You Can't Always Get What You Want"? I mean, you could argue that this is because you wouldn't WANT to play something like that if you had to, but realistically, if I were to pick up your bass, I guarantee you I wouldn't do that. Whereas, on occasion I'll do some slap stuff on my guitars (it sounds kind of cool on an acoustic, especially if you tune down) but that's not really a focus for me (nor is it for a lot of people), and partly due to the higher tuning it sounds more like I'm appropriating a bass technique as an effect for a guitar.
> 
> ...



Some good stuff,Drew.
First,I would never have any kind of attitude when it comes to styles of music,number of strings,personal taste etc.

I use a pick and strum chords to a Stones tune etc. on the Adler 12,but I can,without changing instruments,transition into a touch style piece, a motown style bass groove or play bass with one hand and guitar with the other for a blues tune.

Pianists do this all the time. Nothing can replace the sound of a Paul,a Tele,Strat etc. But we can't play 7 octave chord voicings on them either.
I got the 12 going to make new,different sounding textures that evolved from playing bass ,guitar and Stick.

When I say musician,it isn't like that joke "there were 3 musicians and a drummer going to a gig". I mean you play guitar parts like the ones in the songs you mentioned. But,what if you wanted to play the Warner bros. cartoon cue "Powerhouse' (the factory music), It's piano and woodwinds and the parts require two handed tapping. You need more note positions so your hands aren't fighting for the use of the same string.

Say you want to play "Long Distance Runaround" by Yes and you want to experience playing both the bass and guitar parts simultaneously? How about playing a Bach invention as written?

You are a musician using a guitar as you means of experssion. An instrument, that is great for all the guitar licks ever written,but not playing outside the limits of a 6-string guitar.
If I want to play" Start Me Up", I can use a 6-string. If I want to play Super Mario piano sheet music version,I need 10-11 strings.
I hope that makes some sense.



distressed_romeo said:


> Do you reckon it'll ever be possible to build these instruments in such a way that they won't cost thousands of dollars?



Yes. It just takes time to get things done. Look at the high strings.....I am still trying to get the manufacturing going.



Desecrated said:


> There is also stuff in french that not exist in english, but with gary´s "UFI" you have evertyhing a bass and a guitar has, it is as if he would speak "fringlish". It´s very hard to drawn a line in the extreme ereas, what you say works vey well on a steretype guitarist and a stereotype bassplayer, but when we have guys using both bass and guitar techniques on instruments that are both bass and guitars, 10 strings and above, it gets very hard to say where bass stops and guitar begin.



When we read music,such as piano music,the left hand plays bass and the right hand plays melodies. They cross over from time to time.

In 2000, nobody was discussing extended range guitars as we are here as frequently as we do. If I said 11 or 12 0r 13-string bass, I could get a gig at the comedy store(attempt at humor).

So the idea of an unlimited fingerboard starts sound better the more you try playing piano music or the piano reduction condensed score to "Star Wars" and so forth. I have 435+ fret positions on the Adler 12-string.As poor as my Mario video is,you can still see that each hand has plenty of room without getting in the other hand's way. That's what U.F.I. is all about.

For me,it is breaking down the barriers that get in our way. Sound,strings,cost etc.



distressed_romeo said:


> You could also look at the UFI concept as being like people who are fluent in more than one language...



Yes. Unlimited is unlimited. I may never use my open C0 string(I do) or the highest frets, but they are there just in case.

The 11,12 and 13-string are not meant to replace existing bass and guitar. Not that they could. I have a 6-string guitar,12-string guitar,4-string bass even a 6-string Banjo and a Ukulele.

None of these instruments will allow me to play page 125,Diapente progressions, the equal division of 7 octaves into 12 parts in Nicolas Slonimsky's "Thesaurus of Scales and Melodic Patterns" as written.

My Adler 12-string will. I, As a musician and a bass or guitarist, would never know what it is like to read, play and hear #926 from that book without the 7 octaves it takes to do so.

This is great material for scores, original music and other new music.
The 12-string was an idea I had for myself as is the U.F.I..
It's not for everybody. Having such an instrument doesn't make me better than anyone. It's just a tool. This is why I say something when some does get a such an instrument and plays the same things the same way he did on a 6-string.That is another story. It has taken me 2 years just to really beging to feel comfortable on the 12.

I have to learn new things everyday. Almost like learning a second language.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 15, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Interesting perspective.
> 
> There are some bassists who use picks (either exclusively or occasionally) and play with a very guitaristic style;
> 
> ...



John Alderate from Racer X? He uses fingerstyle. At least in all the Racer X vids i've seen. (he's also in the Mars Volta as Juan Alderate.)


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 15, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> John Alderate from Racer X? He uses fingerstyle. At least in all the Racer X vids i've seen. (he's also in the Mars Volta as Juan Alderate.)



He does break out the pick on occasion, although you're right, he is predominantly a fingerstyle guy.


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## Variant (Feb 16, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> Say you want to play "Long Distance Runaround" by Yes and you want to experience playing both the bass and guitar parts simultaneously? How about playing a Bach invention as written?



God, I love Yes... *but* you are leaving out one critical factor here Garry, you are a *spectacular* player... lol!!!  Seriously, and I'm pretty critical of things most of the time. For guys like you, 'concerto' type playing with both hands comes naturally... for guys like me, *only* if it's done as two separate tracks (guitar and bass).  I figure that I'd need the surgery to separate the corpus callosum to pull off such feats.  

In all seriousness though, for a lot of us, extended range instruments simply expand out tonal palate which we acquire when we hear the Al Caldwells or Meshuggahs of the world and want to apply that to our humble compositions. For me, who's been used to playing guitars since I was 16, detuning lost that range that I was familiar with... nowadays, having a lot of synth and effects gear, I *could* always pitch transpose to the desired sonic result, but it but thats not how I learned the instrument... and thusly, moving to bass was a strange transition (not because of techniques like finger-picking and slapping/tapping that I was already doing on guitar) but losing the modal/scalar/chordal options that more strings offered me. In fact, I tune the bass the same as the guitar BEADGBE, to facilitate that line of thinking.  

...and since you mentioned Bach, it reminded me of two years ago when I was wandering around Chandler Mall here in Arizona, and I came up the escalator to see an illustrious Bob Culbertson playing Christmas tunes on a very low serial number Chapman Stick. Just sitting there like he wandered in, tapping away. Some young kids spouted out some J.S. Bach piece at random, which he went into playing without a second thought. A strange and awesome moment nonetheless.


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 16, 2007)

Variant said:


> God, I love Yes... *but* you are leaving out one critical factor here Garry, you are a *spectacular* player... lol!!!  Seriously, and I'm pretty critical of things most of the time. For guys like you, 'concerto' type playing with both hands comes naturally... for guys like me, *only* if it's done as two separate tracks (guitar and bass).  I figure that I'd need the surgery to separate the corpus callosum to pull off such feats.
> 
> In all seriousness though, for a lot of us, extended range instruments simply expand out tonal palate which we acquire when we hear the Al Caldwells or Meshuggahs of the world and want to apply that to our humble compositions. For me, who's been used to playing guitars since I was 16, detuning lost that range that I was familiar with... nowadays, having a lot of synth and effects gear, I *could* always pitch transpose to the desired sonic result, but it but thats not how I learned the instrument... and thusly, moving to bass was a strange transition (not because of techniques like finger-picking and slapping/tapping that I was already doing on guitar) but losing the modal/scalar/chordal options that more strings offered me. In fact, I tune the bass the same as the guitar BEADGBE, to facilitate that line of thinking.
> 
> ...and since you mentioned Bach, it reminded me of two years ago when I was wandering around Chandler Mall here in Arizona, and I came up the escalator to see an illustrious Bob Culbertson playing Christmas tunes on a very low serial number Chapman Stick. Just sitting there like he wandered in, tapping away. Some young kids spouted out some J.S. Bach piece at random, which he went into playing without a second thought. A strange and awesome moment nonetheless.



You are too kind... I have had to work hard to develope my playing skills. I have an older brother who was composing for concert band and orchestra at age 15 who constantly exposed me to the world of the "excellent musician". With my Adler 12-string,I see myself at the base of a huge mountain I plan on climbing. As a composer/arranger/producer, I want to know as much and play as well as any keyboard based musician. Nothing came naturally to me.

Thinking of a bass guitar and guitar as part of the same instrument is my way of understanding being self contained the way a pianist is. It's a self imposed sentence I came up playing 4-string in rock bands .
I was in school band and orchestra where I learned Tuba, double bass and even bagpipes. So I also played for broadway type shows, singers,jazz,Dixieland,blues,country etc.

I never,ever want anyone to think that I think having 11,12 etc. strings is in anyway better than any other instrument. I hear a Beatles tune like "Martha My Dear" and learn the piano part. Then I want to play it using the same notes in the same octaves as I would on piano,on a guitar. 8+ strings makes that easy. I am playing the piano's left hand bass and the piano's right hand melody. If someone calls me to do a gig tonight with a band playing Cream,Hendrix,Stones, I am going to bring a 4 -7 string bass. If I did a solo gig, I'd bring the 12-string(stereo 6/6).


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 17, 2007)

Do you ever get the opportunity to use the 11 and 12 string basses in the context of a full band?


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 17, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Do you ever get the opportunity to use the 11 and 12 string basses in the context of a full band?



Yes. I played a weekend gig with a female voclaist,a sax/piano player and sometimes a drummer. So I used the 11-string to comp chords and while laing down a bass line and kick left hand bass while doing a "guitar" solo with the right hand.

I played the IBM Japan convention last year and used the 12-string. The sub bass register was awesome . We had some of the guys from the Don Ho show on the gig.

Usually I use these basses with a duo,or when I just play solo gigs.


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## Desecrated (Feb 17, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> Yes. I played a weekend gig with a female voclaist,a sax/piano player and sometimes a drummer. So I used the 11-string to comp chords and while laing down a bass line and kick left hand bass while doing a "guitar" solo with the right hand.
> 
> I played the IBM Japan convention last year and used the 12-string. The sub bass register was awesome . We had some of the guys from the Don Ho show on the gig.
> 
> Usually I use these basses with a duo,or when I just play solo gigs.



Bring a camera next time, post some videos. When plugged in to the amp.


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 18, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Even that's started shifting though...think of the nu-metal bands (Korn and Mudvayne spring to mind) where the bass was almost more a lead instrument than the guitar, or bands like Tool and Meshuggah where the two instruments freely trade roles and play parts that don't really sound like either is traditionally supposed to.
> 
> Remember Stanley Clarke's bands; how he'd play 'lead guitar' on his picollo or tenor basses, whilst another four-stringer played rhythm?



I was influenced by Jack Bruce,who also played a 6-string bass and Paul McCartney's recording both bass and guitar parts. Now I am dating myself.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 18, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> Now I am dating myself.



Okaaaaaay...

Yeah, Jack Bruce is great. Didn't Vernon Reid play in his band recently?

Were you ever into the Cure, as they use a Bass VI a lot (although I think they've switched to the Schecter-made version now) for both basslines and leads?


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 18, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Okaaaaaay...
> 
> Yeah, Jack Bruce is great. Didn't Vernon Reid play in his band recently?
> 
> Were you ever into the Cure, as they use a Bass VI a lot (although I think they've switched to the Schecter-made version now) for both basslines and leads?



I remember the Cure, I didn't know what bass they used.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 18, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> I remember the Cure, I didn't know what bass they used.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdFlOWctKIY

This is the best showcase for their use of the Bass VI I can think of. Gorgeous song too...


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## Seedawakener (Feb 19, 2007)

Bass starts at G#.


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## Garry Goodman (Feb 19, 2007)

Seedawakener said:


> Bass starts at G#.



That's good! But the question is....which G#?


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## Leon (Feb 19, 2007)

+1 @ style. it's all about the way you play it.


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## Desecrated (Feb 19, 2007)

Garry Goodman said:


> That's good! But the question is....which G#?



G#2


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## Drew (Feb 20, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> I've seen quite a few guys, such as Adagio's Franck Hermanny, who play fingerstyle, but have adapted guitar players' sweep arpeggios for the bass.



...which are themselves based upon a violin technique, it's worth noting. I really surprised a violinist friend of mine when I broke a few arpeggios out in front of her. 

Also, while I generally have a hard time with the Cure, "Disintegration" is a fucking phenominal album.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 21, 2007)

Drew said:


> ...which are themselves based upon a violin technique, it's worth noting. I really surprised a violinist friend of mine when I broke a few arpeggios out in front of her.
> 
> Also, while I generally have a hard time with the Cure, "Disintegration" is a fucking phenominal album.



I think sweeping's one of those things that's just a logical way of playing certain things on stringed instruments, so it's hard to really say that it originates from anywhere (despite what Frank Gambale may claim!). In that 'Dear Guitar Hero' article with Jason Becker in the last Guitar World, he said that no-one ever taught him how to sweep, and he didn't really copy it from anyone; it just seemed like the most efficient way to play arpeggios when he started getting into classical stuff.

'Disintegration' is untouchable, as are 'Bloodflowers' and 'Pornography'. I recommend the 'Trilogy' DVD where they play those three albums in full. If you're still unsure about The Cure, this'll convert you...


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## Naren (Feb 21, 2007)

"Disintegration" and "Pornography" are The Cure's best albums, I think. Their 1980's b-sides are really cool, since they're so dark, dischordant, and chaotic. I don't know why they put some inferior (in my opinion) poppy songs on some albums instead of those. I love The Cure, but my favorite Cure songs are mostly from the 80's (one of my favorites is, of course, "A Forest").

Oh, and I think a lot of you guys have failed to realise that bass DOES NOT stop. It just keeps going and going. Bass can go on forever if need be.


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## zimbloth (Feb 21, 2007)

Naren said:


> "Disintegration" and "Pornography" are The Cure's best albums, I think.



I agree. Disintegration is my favorite, "Plainsong" > *. Dark songs like "Cold" are awesome too off Porno. I like their super catchy poppy songs such as "Just Like Heaven" and "Friday I'm In Love" as well though.


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## Drew (Feb 21, 2007)

I HATE their lighter, poppier shit, though. Loathe it. It makes me grind my teeth. I was shocked when I heard Disintegration, as it was so unlike anything else I'd heard from the Cure.

Where did Gambale claim he got the idea? Anyway, while a few guys might have backed into it independantly, the mechanics to playing arpps on a violin and sweeping them on a guitar are identical - a single sweep of the bow up and back down, with the fingers doing all the "work." I'm sure Becker had at least seen a violinist play when he came up with the idea, even if he wasn't consciously thinking of it.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 21, 2007)

Drew said:


> I HATE their lighter, poppier shit, though. Loathe it. It makes me grind my teeth. I was shocked when I heard Disintegration, as it was so unlike anything else I'd heard from the Cure.
> 
> Where did Gambale claim he got the idea? Anyway, while a few guys might have backed into it independantly, the mechanics to playing arpps on a violin and sweeping them on a guitar are identical - a single sweep of the bow up and back down, with the fingers doing all the "work." I'm sure Becker had at least seen a violinist play when he came up with the idea, even if he wasn't consciously thinking of it.



I think the way Gambale tells it, it was just something he stumbled upon by accident and ran with. I think Jimmy Bruno started doing it independantly around the same time, but Gambale was the first guy to codify and teach it. You're probably right about Becker having borrowed it unconciously. It wouldn't suprise me if Yngwie did the same, given his fascination with the violin.


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## Murder Soul (Feb 28, 2007)

Ok heres a question is regards to extended range instruments. How much is too much? There has to be some logical limit doesn't there? High A seems to be the highest we can go, and Ive heard of a D #00 on ERBs. Is our future guitars with a billion strings?


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## Desecrated (Feb 28, 2007)

Murder Soul said:


> Ok heres a question is regards to extended range instruments. How much is too much? There has to be some logical limit doesn't there? High A seems to be the highest we can go, and Ive heard of a D #00 on ERBs. Is our future guitars with a billion strings?



Uli jon roth as a high a-string with a 36 fretboard. And you can always bend notes so you should be able to hit a A#.


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## distressed_romeo (Feb 28, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> Uli jon roth as a high a-string with a 36 fretboard. And you can always bend notes so you should be able to hit a A#.



I thought all his sevens had a low B...


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## Metal Ken (Feb 28, 2007)

Drew said:


> I'm sure Becker had at least seen a violinist play when he came up with the idea, even if he wasn't consciously thinking of it.



Actually, he had played for a while then a friend showed him some Yngwie, and he absolutely learned as much Yngwie as he could. \m/


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## Garry Goodman (Mar 1, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> G#2



Mike Sherman's 10 starts at C#1


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## Drew (Mar 1, 2007)

Murder Soul said:


> Ok heres a question is regards to extended range instruments. How much is too much? There has to be some logical limit doesn't there? High A seems to be the highest we can go, and Ive heard of a D #00 on ERBs. Is our future guitars with a billion strings?



Well, there's really two limiting factors - the physical range of the human ear, and the physical ability of a player to fret on the neck of an extended range instrument. A third I guess is the composition of the strings - thick enough to not break under tension on the thinner end, and thin enough to be playable on the thicker end. 

Also, you guys are REALLY not helping my Conklin Groove Tools 7 string bass gas. 

EDIT - and worth mentioning on that note is that conceptually once you get up into the 6-string and 7-string bass range it sort of mentally becomes a different instrument for me - you can play it like a conventional bass, certainly, but when you get up to that sort of range then it becomes less an instrument that I'd be picking up to lay bass tracks with, and more an instrument that would be used as a solo peice. Not solo like guitar solo, but rather unacompanied stuff... More pianoistic than traditional "bass" I guess, or something akin to what a classical guitarist might do.


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## Desecrated (Mar 1, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> I thought all his sevens had a low B...



Is it ????
I thought it was a high A.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 1, 2007)

I'm pretty sure it's a low B. There was a bit on his old website where he was talking about his Sky guitars and mentioned the gauges he uses for it. I think the whole reason for the 7 string + 36 frets setup was to extend the range of the guitar both ways.


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## Durero (Mar 1, 2007)

Murder Soul said:


> Ok heres a question is regards to extended range instruments. How much is too much? There has to be some logical limit doesn't there? High A seems to be the highest we can go, and Ive heard of a D #00 on ERBs. Is our future guitars with a billion strings?


Drew's points about this are right on.

I'd say that the physical limits - for a tuning based on 4ths - seem to be around 12 strings. Garry Goodman has such a beast with a very slight (34" - 32") fan. I can imagine that it would be possible to make a 13-string instrument with a much more extreme fan, but I doubt that this would increase the overall range because the highest frets would become so close together as to be unplayable.

So I guess I'm trying to say that imo 12 strings is the approximate upper limit for extended-range instruments in 4ths.

Of course if you change the tuning scheme to have smaller string-to-string intervals then you can increase the number of strings possible before hitting the top & bottom physical limits. A few folks here have mentioned a symmetrical major 3rds tuning - in my head this would enable an approximate maximum of 14 or 15 strings, but with the same overall range of 8 octaves which seems to be the physical limit of range for stringed instruments.


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## Murder Soul (Mar 1, 2007)

Ok, one more question. It's sort of related. Do you guys think that having instruments that have too much range destroy the overall music?


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## Durero (Mar 1, 2007)

Certainly not!

Quality of composed music depends on your composition skills.
Quality of improvised music depends on your improvisation skills.

The range of your instrument just gives you more colors to paint your sounds with, but if you go from a 4 octave guitar to an 8 octave guitar/bass thing, and you let the extended range distract you from creating music with your best compositional skills/balance/taste then yes - you could say that the extended range was distracting you from composing at your best. But your composing is the culprit, not the instrument.


Any new instrument takes time to master...


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 1, 2007)

Murder Soul said:


> Ok, one more question. It's sort of related. Do you guys think that having instruments that have too much range destroy the overall music?



Instruments are just tools...if bad music comes out of a guitar with lots of strings, that just means the player either isn't very talented, or hasn't found a way of effectively utilising the extra range.


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