# What would you do!? (luthier scam?)



## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

hello guys,

i am not sure if this is the right section to post , but as it's
generally about luthiery i hope it's ok...

first of all i won't reveal any names as i still hope for a positive resolution.

about a year ago i have ordered a custom guitar. 

the complete order process happened within facebook, 
which is pretty good actually as i have the complete
"ordering process" listed this way.

everything went really quick, communication was quick 
and all my questions were answered quickly and precisely.

when the final specs were done i have paid the 50% deposit, 
since then *NOTHING* has happened!

communication went below zero, no info, no pics, nothing...

regarding the general info i could gather from the fb posts
the build got delayed and delayed due to several circumstances.

being able to understand the situation i have still been very, 
very patient about this, as i was promised to get info and some pics "soon" 

i was also told that the build is proceeding well,
but i am not getting any info/pics/proof about this.

however for me, as i have no proof of anything 
the build is just not proceeding, maybe not even happening.

IMHO it should not be a big deal to take *a few minutes* and
shoot a few pics, NO MATTER how busy anyone is...

the luthier also has a pretty regular activity on fb ad it seems to 
me like there is plenty of time for everything, just not these few minutes to send me a few pics.

this may sound funny but i think a big part of having a custom 
guitar build is seing how it's actually being build, anticipation and stuff right...

i definitively do not want the build to be rushed but a 
complete year wthout anything seems strange to me.

what do you think? am i overreacting? 
any tips what i could actually do now?

cheers
FIX


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## Benjamin Millar (May 25, 2014)

Did you agree on a build schedule / Completion time?
If so, has it passed?


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## Lotra (May 25, 2014)

itºs from a legite builder???^
Any known name ??


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

@Benjamin Millar
there was no "completion time" set and that's also not the problem here.
i am aware of building time and that it's common to wait a year or even 
more for a custom build to be completed.

that's pretty normal, however having absolutely no info about the build
is definitively not "normal" as we are not talking about completion but
general info how/if the build is even proceeding.

@Lotra
pretty legit and COOL guy, he also makes great guitars, haven't read any negative review so far!
i know he is pretty snowed under with work and i can absolutely understand that, that's also why i have 
been so patient over the time but it's just getting a bit weird. 

after like 8 months without any info i got pics promised
and now it's been like 2,5 months again without any contact. 
that's just not OK as contact/conversation is a very important part for a custom build.

also taking a few minutes to make a few pics (i am not asking for some hi-res DSLR pics with perfect lighting and colour balance)
should not be an impossible task right?


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## pondman (May 25, 2014)

So are you saying that after you gave him a 50% deposit you've had no communication for a year ?


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

pondman said:


> So are you saying that after you gave him a 50% deposit you've had no communication for a year ?



we had "a few lines of communication" in the facebook chat where i was asking for an update and i got promised an update, which did not happen 
at all.


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## pondman (May 25, 2014)

Refund if that's the case. 
Don't mess around with this one if those are the facts. This story happens over and over again on here and people always leave it too late.

There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of business practice.


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## JEguitars (May 25, 2014)

As a builder myself, if its been a year and you've had zero updates, it's time to get your money back.


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## Necris (May 25, 2014)

If it isn't too late get your money back and take it elsewhere.


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

@pondman
legally, what are my chances?
every luthier has a "no refunds" agreement and basically
this agreement has not been "violated" by him in general but certainly
there are a few points that have not been complied from his side!

does this mean i can insist on a refund or do i have to set an ultimatum?

i'd definitively prefer a positive resolution as everything 
else could slow down the build even more and may be even areason for getting
an inferior instrument in case of rush, anger etc. i highly doubt that as he is a 
really nice guy but i have also made too many bad experiences with luthiers to be 100% sure.

@JEguitars
yeah, exactly what i am thinking now...

@Necris
what do you exactly mean by "too late"?
he said that the build is proceeding very well and that it's close to completion.
however i have NO proof of that so as such, basically the build has not even started yet.


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## Webmaestro (May 25, 2014)

I understand not wanting to publicly call this person out by name.

Would you mind messaging me privately, so that I don't hire this guy and suffer the same fate?


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## JEguitars (May 25, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> @pondman
> legally, what are my chances?
> every luthier has a "no refunds" agreement and basically
> this agreement has not been "violated" by him in general but certainly
> ...




Im sorry, not "every" luthier has a no refund policy. I require half upfront, the other half upon completion, and a FULL refund within 72 hours if not satisfied.


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

@Webmaestro
i'll send you a PM

@JEguitars
surely not every luthier but, unfortunatley it's a common practise nowadays.
most of the time, if anything is wrong, as a customer you are f****d.
some poeple offer to "fix it" but there are things you just can't fix.

so if i order a guitar from you, receive it
and then it's not 100% perfect i'll get a FULL refund?
that's pretty forthcoming and a real rarity!


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## Mr_Metal_575 (May 25, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> @Webmaestro
> i'll send you a PM
> 
> @JEguitars
> ...



Could you send me a PM. I would like to know since I have a custom in order


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## JEguitars (May 25, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> @Webmaestro
> i'll send you a PM
> 
> @JEguitars
> ...




Handbuilt is handbuilt. If there is something about the guitar I ship out that is wrong, like the carve is messed up, or the neck is screwed up, or the fretboard is jacked up, I, #1 would never ship that out. But if you just change your mind just because, I would still give a refund, but charge a re-stocking fee, which doesn't mean I actually have a monetary burden to physically re-stock the guitar, it means, you pay me for the hassle of you changing your mind arbitrarily due to no flaws in craftsmanship, but I would never want to force a guitar on someone that doesn't want it.


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

@Mr_Metal_575
PM sent!

@JEguitars
you have a very fair and realistic perception of luthiery, RESPECT! 

maybe i have to mention that i am very picky when it comes to spending 3K and more
on a custom guitar. in this price range it hasto be perfect, so i am not only talking
major issues.

for example i had a custom in the works that was generally great but the nut was all messed up and i had to replace it completely.
well, it's not a big deal but for 3K this is a no-go.
also the body had a 5cm long "wormhole" on the side, 
which was filled with wood filler another big no-go IMHO.


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## demonx (May 25, 2014)

If the builder is a legitimate business, then they have to abide by the laws of their country in relation to consumer protection etc.

Guitar builders are not exempt from the law, although with so many hobby builders popping up and customers jumping towards the for the lower prices without checking if they're dealing with a legitimate, tax paying business, a government watchdog may not be so interested in your case if this was the scenario.

If they are an old school builder, build pics are really a new school thing which has only really started happening in social media era. Before that it was tradition by most builders to take your money, then hand over a complete guitar. At he end of the day though all builders work differently.

It does sound bad case though. No communication, no pics and no guitar. Not a spot I'd like to be in.


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

@demonx
i'm aware of that, however the "*Terms and Conditions of Sale*" are pretty much egyptian-chinese to me, it's legitimate business though.

pics are nice of course but definitively not a must!
if i had a pic of the body and the neck i would know that these are done and everything would be ok. 

i my case the luthier said that the build is proceeding well
and that he will send me pics but i am just not receiving any pics and i am
waiting months again for these pics, which is absolutely incomprehensible to me.

my main problem is that i do not receive any information. 
for a better understanding, if the build needs some more time it's OK, i have no problem with that.
if the luthier does not care to spend ONE minute to write me a message telling me that the build needs more time, well this is a BIG PROBLEM for me.


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## Connor (May 25, 2014)

Would also appreciate a PM as I have one "under way" that had an estimated finish date of July 2013. 
Definitely understand the frustration of the situation.


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## demonx (May 25, 2014)

You say the builder is on Facebook.

Do they post other guitar build progress pics?

Also, not quite sure how the law works in other countries as there are massive variations, but a "terms of sale" does not override the law here in Australia.


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

@demonx
he is posting on FB regularly and most of the latest posts are guitar SALES.
that's what made me suspicious enough to start this thread. 
all these guitars look like his custom models and not the stock series.
looks like many customers are jumping off, can't explain it otherwise...

also, there seems to be plenty of time, taking hi-res artistic pics of the guitars that
are for SALE. also there is time to advertise these and comment on any pissible interest,
but thereis no time to make a few quick cellphone pics from my build. maybe it's my personality and
i take things like that way to seroiusly but it really makes me sad and angry.


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## Hene (May 25, 2014)

So why are you not telling the name? You could help other people out so they won't order from this luthier. It's not normal that you don't get information about the progress or anything.


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## FIXXXER (May 25, 2014)

Hene said:


> So why are you not telling the name? You could help other people out so they won't order from this luthier. It's not normal that you don't get information about the progress or anything.



i am still hoping for a positive resolution, i can imagine that things would get worse if i reveal the name, even if i did not write anything that's really offending or damaging business of false in any way.

i feel pretty scammed now, but well, we'll see...


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## JEguitars (May 25, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> i am still hoping for a positive resolution, i can imagine that things would get worse if i reveal the name, even if i did not write anything that's really offending or damaging business of false in any way.
> 
> i feel pretty scammed now, but well, we'll see...



Smart way to go about it. I would like him to this thread, he is going to get mad, and upset, and blame you. But I think it should be enough to scare him into doing the right thing.


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## pondman (May 26, 2014)

How did you pay the deposit? Bank card I hope.
He can say whatever he likes about refunds but there are consumer rights that can prove him wrong.
Get things moving and don't hang around


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## AwDeOh (May 26, 2014)

This:



pondman said:


> There is absolutely no excuse for this kind of business practice.



And this:



FIXXXER said:


> that's just not OK as contact/conversation is a very important part for a custom build.



Keeping the builder's name to yourself is wise at this point - it doesn't really sound 'mature' to say that this is leverage in your favour, but it's the truth. IIRC Walterson is in Germany, he may be kind enough to offer some advice here.


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## tommychains (May 27, 2014)

JEguitars said:


> Handbuilt is handbuilt. If there is something about the guitar I ship out that is wrong, like the carve is messed up, or the neck is screwed up, or the fretboard is jacked up, I, #1 would never ship that out. But if you just change your mind just because, I would still give a refund, but charge a re-stocking fee, which doesn't mean I actually have a monetary burden to physically re-stock the guitar, it means, you pay me for the hassle of you changing your mind arbitrarily due to no flaws in craftsmanship, but I would never want to force a guitar on someone that doesn't want it.



+1 if every Luthier followed this rule, that would be great. Hats off to you, sir.


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## dante511039594 (May 27, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> @Mr_Metal_575
> PM sent!
> 
> @JEguitars
> ...



You was talking about that S7G boden 7 right(hahahaha)I am looking a new luthier to build my guitar, therefore, could you please PM me the name of that luthier? Thank you.


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## LaurensG (May 28, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> i am still hoping for a positive resolution, i can imagine that things would get worse if i reveal the name, even if i did not write anything that's really offending or damaging business of false in any way.
> 
> i feel pretty scammed now, but well, we'll see...



Please PM me the name too, hope everything turns out in your favour :/


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## hardvalve (May 28, 2014)

Fretsong? Sounds like his method.


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## FIXXXER (May 28, 2014)

JEguitars said:


> Smart way to go about it. I would like him to this thread, he is going to get mad, and upset, and blame you. But I think it should be enough to scare him into doing the right thing.



we had some contact again and he PROMISED me more info this week.
we'll see then...



pondman said:


> How did you pay the deposit? Bank card I hope.
> He can say whatever he likes about refunds but there are consumer rights that can prove him wrong.
> Get things moving and don't hang around



bank transfer unfortunately, well it's the safest way but as i have initialized it there is no way to set the money back. i think this won't be becessary...hopefully.



AwDeOh said:


> This:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks for the hint! 



tommychains said:


> +1 if every Luthier followed this rule, that would be great. Hats off to you, sir.



exactly!



dante511039594 said:


> You was talking about that S7G boden 7 right(hahahaha)I am looking a new luthier to build my guitar, therefore, could you please PM me the name of that luthier? Thank you.



nope, taking about mayones, they have very poor quality control when it comes to wood. also if you are a known name you'll get a superb guitar, if you are a nobody you'll get somwwhat of a decent guitar. guess why? 

PM on the way 



LaurensG said:


> Please PM me the name too, hope everything turns out in your favour :/



PM on the way



hardvalve said:


> Fretsong? Sounds like his method.



nope, i'd rather cut ma hands off than order a guitar from him


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## bebbe (May 31, 2014)

Does this guy have a lot of finished guitars out there? If so this could perhaps help you estimate the mean turn over time for this guy. 

Also if he is not just a small time builder he has a lot to loose by you going public about this, hence it seems strategic to not to ascertain the builder's name yet, giving you some means to pressure him doing the right thing first


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## FIXXXER (May 31, 2014)

thankfully we have it sorted out and everything turned out well! 
as i said, there was no doubt from my side that he's a cool dude
i just wanted to hear a few more opinions.


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## OmegaSlayer (May 31, 2014)

Did he send you pics and stuff?


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## bombonx101 (May 31, 2014)

That's obviously a fraud.I will give him a warning of exposing his name in ten days from now unless he meet my demand.....


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## FIXXXER (May 31, 2014)

bombonx101 said:


> That's obviously a fraud.I will give him a warning of exposing his name in ten days from now unless he meet my demand.....



yeah, everything is fine! 



OmegaSlayer said:


> Did he send you pics and stuff?



nah, everything is OK now. as i said i had never any doubt that this will
not work out, just wanted to hear some more opinions.


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## Majkel (Jun 3, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> nah, everything is OK now.



So he _didn't_ send you any actual proof of build, but rather just convinced you to keep waiting?


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## FIXXXER (Jun 3, 2014)

Majkel said:


> So he _didn't_ send you any actual proof of build, but rather just convinced you to keep waiting?



i got pics!


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## FIXXXER (Oct 26, 2014)

i haven't heard aynthing from him since...


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## Alex Kenivel (Oct 26, 2014)

Really? Now it really sounds bad.. Might as well spill the beans..


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## BearOnGuitar (Oct 26, 2014)

I remember you inquiring on our Facebook specifically about this build. I hope that your situation gets resolved soon.


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## bombonx101 (Oct 27, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> i haven't heard aynthing from him since...


It looked bad from the beginning....sorry to hear this ,man.Who is that ....person?


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## JuliusJahn (Oct 27, 2014)

Ah jesus.....Abort this operation as soon as you can, and you should release the name. 6 months of no activity is horrible...I update whenever I finish a days worth of work.

As for the refund, the only part that could be non-refundable would be the $ used to buy hardware and wood. Even then, he should deal with the consequences of having such bad rapport and ship you everything so that you could take it to someone who can handle themselves professionally...


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## Rusti (Oct 27, 2014)

I've seen these stories happening too many times and they are damaging the business and the name of every luthier.
I believe these things don't often happen but there are luthiers out there who works hard everyday to provide quality on product's craftmanship, on relation with customers and with public.
I think im talking in the name of most when i say we don't like to see the luthiery's name ruined by these rare cases.

You've been unlucky enough to be one of the customers who experience this, but now you should name the luthier publicly if you want to help the other customers like you.
However this story is gonna end, customers have right to know what they're going to get and who they're going to deal with.


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## Kammo1 (Oct 27, 2014)

As a builder for over 34 years I can assure you if I treated my customers in this manner guess what ? I would of packed up 34 years ago!!!!!!! There is no need for this guy to jerk you around in fact sir you have been too patient with him as after 3 months and I got no pics or updates I would of pulled the plug there and then and moved on to another luthier. I guess you can only wait for the finished guitar as and when it arrives but I'm guessing its gonna end in tears sadly......................


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## Manton Customs (Oct 30, 2014)

Sorry you're having to go through this, I see too many of these threads and I'm sure it does no good for anyone. It probably makes a lot of people think twice before going custom and chose to buy off the shelf instead. Which is sad as the genuine companies need the support! There's one company I've seen do this to a few people and I have no idea how they are still in business. I wouldn't be surprised if this is who you're dealing with either.


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## FIXXXER (Nov 1, 2014)

Alex Kenivel said:


> Really? Now it really sounds bad.. Might as well spill the beans..



yeah man, i am still strugling with this. 
i will send him one more final message, if this stays unanswered
again i guess i'll have to dust the pillory.



BearOnGuitar said:


> I remember you inquiring on our Facebook specifically about this build. I hope that your situation gets resolved soon.



yeah, i hope this will get resolved soon, thanks man!



bombonx101 said:


> It looked bad from the beginning....sorry to hear this ,man.Who is that ....person?



i will give him one more chance to clear things up, 
if it does not work i will reveal the name.



JuliusJahn said:


> Ah jesus.....Abort this operation as soon as you can, and you should release the name. 6 months of no activity is horrible...I update whenever I finish a days worth of work.
> 
> As for the refund, the only part that could be non-refundable would be the $ used to buy hardware and wood. Even then, he should deal with the consequences of having such bad rapport and ship you everything so that you could take it to someone who can handle themselves professionally...



pretty tricky situation i'm in, i do not want to make a move that
has negative consequences for me. unfortunately it looks like i am the only one who will be disadvantaged in such a case. i have already paid a 50% deposit and i doubt that i could get it back as the guitar "seems" to be almost done. the sad thing is, it was "almost done" a few moths ago
and i think that it is unnecessarily hanging on the wall catching dust.



Rusti said:


> I've seen these stories happening too many times and they are damaging the business and the name of every luthier.
> I believe these things don't often happen but there are luthiers out there who works hard everyday to provide quality on product's craftmanship, on relation with customers and with public.
> I think im talking in the name of most when i say we don't like to see the luthiery's name ruined by these rare cases.
> 
> ...



this is my third custom guitar and the third case where things have gone horribly wrong, pretty much bad luck on my side i guess. i am surely at the end with my patience and i have been really, really patient in this case.
he will get one more chance to clear things up otherwise i will have to 
call his name out.



Kammo1 said:


> As a builder for over 34 years I can assure you if I treated my customers in this manner guess what ? I would of packed up 34 years ago!!!!!!! There is no need for this guy to jerk you around in fact sir you have been too patient with him as after 3 months and I got no pics or updates I would of pulled the plug there and then and moved on to another luthier. I guess you can only wait for the finished guitar as and when it arrives but I'm guessing its gonna end in tears sadly......................



all i want is a flawless guitar at the end. in my opinion a custom build should be worked on togethet with the customer. if there is no exchange of imformation then how can anybody be sure that everything will be as expected. i am also losing interest in this guitar as i have nothing than a few early pics.



Manton Customs said:


> Sorry you're having to go through this, I see too many of these threads and I'm sure it does no good for anyone. It probably makes a lot of people think twice before going custom and chose to buy off the shelf instead. Which is sad as the genuine companies need the support! There's one company I've seen do this to a few people and I have no idea how they are still in business. I wouldn't be surprised if this is who you're dealing with either.



this is my last custom order for sure!
i absolutely lost faith in luthiery and i do not see any difference to stock "big company" guitars anymore. it's a business at all and there seems to be no place for passion, customer friendliness, individuality etc.


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## Nour Ayasso (Nov 1, 2014)

dude you're getting ViK rolled


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## patsanger (Nov 1, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> this is my last custom order for sure!
> i absolutely lost faith in luthiery and i do not see any difference to stock "big company" guitars anymore. it's a business at all and there seems to be no place for passion, customer friendliness, individuality etc.




I can understand - this is the third time and each time you have been shafted.

But... there are good luthiers out there. Ones that will work with you ad give you constant updates. If you look around at the NGDs as they post around here you will see when people talk about their communication with their builder. Also, many of the Dealer threads are good ways to find info as well and see who is delivering and on what time frame.

I hope it works out and you get either pics or money back...


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## Hollowway (Nov 1, 2014)

I think it depends on the luthier and the situation. Maybe that's naive, I'm not sure, but some luthiers are just not good at communication and take a super long time to build - but come through and have good reputations. Ive had an 8 scale build going with KxK for almost 4 years, no pictures, and I'm in with a group of a few people in a similar situation. But no one seems worried about it because he is slowly releasing guitars. I imagine if you order from other places like Myka you'd be in a similar situation (though I don't actually know). 

At any rate, throw me a PM so I know who you're talking about as well.


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## patsanger (Nov 1, 2014)

4 years? Michaelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel in 4 years...
And you got to see it as it was being built.
Just saying.


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## Dust_to_Dust (Nov 2, 2014)

I'm intrigued.. spill!!


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## VSK Guitars (Nov 3, 2014)

Whoa man... I felt a little bad going 2 weeks over my estimated time on my last custom build, going this long with no communication, or guitar is insane.

IDK how the hell it became acceptable to have to wait years for a guitar to be built. It really kind of screws over legitimate builders that can complete a build on schedule.... 

It's sad that ordering a custom build, and never actually getting a guitar in your hands at the end of it all, is so common around here. 
I don't know how these guys can sleep at night the way they dick people around and steal from them.


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## Rusti (Nov 3, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> this is my third custom guitar and the third case where things have gone horribly wrong, pretty much bad luck on my side i guess. i am surely at the end with my patience and i have been really, really patient in this case.
> he will get one more chance to clear things up otherwise i will have to
> call his name out.



3 out of 3 custom orders went wrong?! I assume you didn't make a second order from a builder who left you unhappy, so this means that you picked up three different builders who did this.. and its not easy.
As you can see on the Luthiery section or on the NGD threads its full of happy customers who has a good relation with so many builders. Picking up one of those builders would have been a good idea i guess. Or at least do some good research on the builder you're going to give your money to.

What's the difference between sending private message to everyone and writing the name in public?
Lets say this story will end well and you get your perfect guitar (and thats what we all hope for), if you don't write publicly other customers like you will have more chances to end up in your same situation..

My opinion.


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## FIXXXER (Nov 11, 2014)

Nour Ayasso said:


> dude you're getting ViK rolled



nope, Vik guitars look sick but i would never order one.



patsanger said:


> I can understand - this is the third time and each time you have been shafted.
> 
> But... there are good luthiers out there. Ones that will work with you ad give you constant updates. If you look around at the NGDs as they post around here you will see when people talk about their communication with their builder. Also, many of the Dealer threads are good ways to find info as well and see who is delivering and on what time frame.
> 
> I hope it works out and you get either pics or money back...



yeah man, the problem is that i have a very special taste in guitars,
it's not easy to find a luthier who will build anything the customer wants.
most luthiers have their own designs and stick to them.
being lefthanded does not make it easier also, most luthiers will make a lefty guitar but sometimes it feels like that they do not always understand
why it's actually a lefty.




Hollowway said:


> I think it depends on the luthier and the situation. Maybe that's naive, I'm not sure, but some luthiers are just not good at communication and take a super long time to build - but come through and have good reputations. Ive had an 8 scale build going with KxK for almost 4 years, no pictures, and I'm in with a group of a few people in a similar situation. But no one seems worried about it because he is slowly releasing guitars. I imagine if you order from other places like Myka you'd be in a similar situation (though I don't actually know).
> 
> At any rate, throw me a PM so I know who you're talking about as well.



i've read a few things about KxK now, seems like a place where not to go honestly. the luthier i have ordered my guitar is has a pretty good reputation but, since i have placed the order A LOT of things seemed to go wrong, things which i can understand like family or health issues. 

however i can't understand how there is no time to answer customer questions but lots of time taking new orders, especially when the previous batch is not finished yet. that's actually what is pissing me off, i have no problem to wait for a guitar but i can't understand why i am disadvantaged as an existing customer.




patsanger said:


> 4 years? Michaelangelo painted the Sistine Chapel in 4 years...
> And you got to see it as it was being built.
> Just saying.



haha so true 



Dust_to_Dust said:


> I'm intrigued.. spill!!



man, i would, the problem is, i really do not want to damage anybodys reputation. i also do not want to "endanger" my build. let's see the facts, whatever happenes to the guitar, as a customer i have absolutely no rights. what if the guitar gets damaged during shipping?
will i get my money back? of course i won't, i've been through all of this.
i will probably get an offer for the guitar being fixed, which would be ridiculous as i am not dump and paying 3,5K for a FIXED guitar...just an example. i know this sounds selfish but right now i am trying to get through this without any real harm on my side. i just feel that things could go
out of control if i denounce the luthier.



Swirltop said:


> Whoa man... I felt a little bad going 2 weeks over my estimated time on my last custom build, going this long with no communication, or guitar is insane.
> 
> IDK how the hell it became acceptable to have to wait years for a guitar to be built. It really kind of screws over legitimate builders that can complete a build on schedule....
> 
> ...



same thoughts here man! 
i started a build for and by myself a long time ago and
the only reason i can imagine for a guitar taking that long is LAZYNESS.
especially when working with modern machinery like CNC, laser cutting machines, templates etc. a guitar should not take more than 6 months to build. 

i also do not understand these piece by piece builds, 
like "hey today and in the next 10 weeks we will be putting binding on fretboards only". sure it's kind of more work efficient but it's slowing down the build process drastically. a guitar should be build from the beginning to the end (not talking about cutting, jointing, glueing wood etc. this can be done in batches of course) and then the next guitar should be started. working with a build list would ensure that everybody would have to wait about the same time, first come first served.



Rusti said:


> 3 out of 3 custom orders went wrong?! I assume you didn't make a second order from a builder who left you unhappy, so this means that you picked up three different builders who did this.. and its not easy.
> As you can see on the Luthiery section or on the NGD threads its full of happy customers who has a good relation with so many builders. Picking up one of those builders would have been a good idea i guess. Or at least do some good research on the builder you're going to give your money to.
> 
> What's the difference between sending private message to everyone and writing the name in public?
> ...



unfortunately the first two guitars were from the same builder, or let's say company. i realy loved the shapes and the look of the guitars. soundwise these were really good but the quality control on wood was ridiculously cheap. both times i PAID lots of casr for a AAAA flamed maple top and got a really really cheap looking, let it be one A top. i also feel like they do really hate lefthanded people and definitively deliver inferior guitars. i know this sounds paranoid but i have two very good examples for this being true.
they mak pretty good "sauce" though! 

btw i absolutely love your builds man, they look so well planned and CLEAN,
if i had discovered you a few months earlier 
i would have placed the order! 

all in all it seems like the build will be finished soon, i actually got a reply
and my guitar will be ready at the end of the month, if i can believe his words. also, from what i have seen so far on my and many other builds the quality is TOP NOTCH, so hopefully this will be OK.

AFAIK he is also not accepting any more orders until the current batch is done, so everybody should be safe! 

I'll give him two more weeks for a PROPER update with pics, showing the progress, quality etc. otherwise i will call his name out, no matter what.

cheers
FIX


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## Nour Ayasso (Nov 12, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> nope, Vik guitars look sick but i would never order one.


I meant "Vik rolled" as in _rick rolled_...


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## FIXXXER (Dec 12, 2014)

well, the last "event" really made me sad, 
check out my other posts here and you'll find out what this is all about...


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## SlipknotKoRnfan (Dec 15, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> well, the last "event" really made me sad,
> check out my other posts here and you'll find out what this is all about...



No offence but I really think you should have listened to everyone's advice here and strived to get a refund, MONTHS ago. A lot of people here know all about these situations and have heard of/experienced many of them, so they know the symptoms.
Plus, you had mentioned that TWICE you weren't happy with them before? It just seems silly.
At this point you should really have no reason not to reveal the luthier, so others may be wary and avoid them.

If he is so "busy" that he can't even snap a pic to send you, how can anyone justify that he wouldn't be too busy to browse this forum specifically to look for this thread?

I don't mean to sound harsh bud. I just hate to hear this stuff happen to people.

Get a REFUND! I wish the best for you.


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## FIXXXER (Dec 15, 2014)

*1. custom*, a Mayones Regius 6, good guitar in general but with several flaws, 
broken nut, broken input jack, wrong pickups installed. poor looking top wood.

*2. custom*, another Regius 6, i really loved the shape and the looks so i gave them another chance. 

the big boss himself promised that this guitar would be perfect, 
well it was OK but still had flaws. 

they just decided to install the wrong bridge on their own, 
even i had clearly ordered another bridge. 

the nut on this one was broken too. 

the wood quality on this was also not that good, 
at least i think that filled womholes in the body are
not appropriate on a 2,5K custom guitar.
*
3. custom*, a Sabre Guitars Ghost 6, ordered and paid the 
deposit more than 1,5 years ago. 

since then nothing has happened, i got promised pics several times but nothing happened. 
it's been more than 4 weeks now that i got promised pics "in a few days",
nothing happened.

all i got so far is 2 pics of the body and a hell load of empty promises. 
communication is absolutely NON existent, this is not how a custom order should be...

it also pisses me off that there seems plenty of time to post adverts, 
pics of guitars that are "on sale" but no time to shoot a quick pic with the cellphone and send it over via facebook...


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## Konfyouzd (Dec 15, 2014)

I put down a deposit on a custom and "nothing has happened" insofar as saws have not yet hit wood. However, I've been talking to the builder A LOT in this past year and we never agreed on a set completion time or any of that. 

That said, whenever there's ANY sort of update--no matter how small--I get an email. And any time I have a question along the way, my emails get very quick responses even if it's just, "I'm still waiting to hear back on that."

This is my first custom so it could be that I'm lucky in the experience I'm having. Being that this is my first, though I don't think it'd be wise for me to give advice as to what you should do. At the same time, it sounds as though, despite it taking a while for my guild to get started (I hear that can be the case often), my builder/compay of choice has done a stellar job in the communication department thus far.


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## skeels (Dec 15, 2014)

Man, this sucks. Having said that, gotta stick to your guns man. Spill it. You said you would wait two weeks and then drop his name. It's been a month.

Did you try posting right to his Facebook page "How's my build coming along?"


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## FIXXXER (Dec 17, 2014)

i had a good chat with Chris recently and things were all cleared up!
i have also got the promised pics and he is actually putting great effort in making 
this guitar perfect. it's a very special build and it needed lots of "extra treatment".
all in all things are rolling and i am expecting a flawless and superior guitar to arrive soon!


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## Hyacinth (Dec 17, 2014)

Good luck dude.


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## SlipknotKoRnfan (Dec 18, 2014)

FIXXXER said:


> i had a good chat with Chris recently and things were all cleared up!
> i have also got the promised pics and he is actually putting great effort in making
> this guitar perfect. it's a very special build and it needed lots of "extra treatment".
> all in all things are rolling and i am expecting a flawless and superior guitar to arrive soon!



Though we are all glad to hear this, I still don't think it's right. In your position even with more promised pics I'd still demand a refund. If I had a girlfriend that called me once every 6 months to tell me everything's great i'd dump her ass, same for a luthier. Who knows how long this'll take to ship? He's been stringing you along way too long now, and keeping you around by saying everythings gonna be all right and that your guitar needs 'special treatment'.

Still, I hope everything works out dude.


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## FIXXXER (Jul 24, 2016)

@MatthewLeisher
thanks! 

@SlipknotKoRnfan
yeah, this custom order, really left a bitter taste, just like the other two custom orders. considering some recent events, i am really glad my guitar turned out well, looks like other people who ordered from Sabre Guitars are havin way less luck.

i do not know what's going on there but it seems like everybody who ordered from Sabre is experiencing the exact same things as i did. it seems like chris (Sabre Guitars owner) is having some serious health and personal problems and i hope that he will manage to sort these things out. he always seemed like a nice guy to me, though
i always felt that many things were simply "poor excuses", can't tell for sure, can't look inside someones head...


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## FourT6and2 (Jul 28, 2016)

FIXXXER said:


> @MatthewLeisher
> thanks!
> 
> @SlipknotKoRnfan
> ...



It's a lie.

Every... and I mean EVERY custom amp maker or guitar builder or ANYBODY who takes someone's money and sits on it for a long time without delivering... it's always "Oh I've had health problems." Or, "Oh, I have family issues." BS. It's a lie. They are scam artists pure and simple.

If it were NOT a lie, they would contact each and every customer they have and let them know the second something happens. If they drop all communication for months and months, yet still post to Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, forums, etc... then they are lying.


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## FIXXXER (Jul 28, 2016)

yeah man, i can absolutely relate to that, 
sometimes things are just very fu****g strange, especially the thing you mentioned about not responding but being "online" all the time, this makes/made me actually 
erupt in anger!

at the end i simply accepted how things were going and i was glad i got my guitar
and that it was a pretty good build...with some minor faults, that i was able to see over.

still, if i think about how much i paid for this guitar and how long i had to wait, 
it's definitively more a regret>joy situation.

i'am surely not the type of guy to has to badmouth people, though my experience and the experience of almost ALL of his customers are pretty similar and this has to mean something.


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## pondman (Jul 29, 2016)

With the unbelievable escalation of threads like this I'm amazed anyone orders custom guitars anymore.


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## FIXXXER (Jul 29, 2016)

what do you mean exactly?


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## pondman (Jul 29, 2016)

What I mean is there is a thread started every other week about someone getting ripped off and ignored after placing a custom order with an independent builder.
Taking the plunge and placing an order seems like a massive risk these days.


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## bostjan (Jul 29, 2016)

Man, I hate to say it, but it's not just "anymore," ordering a custom guitar from a minor league company has never been a fool-proof thing. I've had some really horrible experiences with such, going back to around 2000 or 2001, but I've also had a couple of really really great experiences.

Ordering blind from a dealer you do not know is like taking your money, dipping it in an unknown fluid from the pharmacy and holding a match to it, essentially. If you research your luthier and vet him (or her), then you'll be much more successful, but it's still not without risk.

I think that the good luthiers out there don't get a lot of our attention. People pay them and get their guitars. The bad luthiers, on the other hand, stir up a lot of attention. Here's an example of two thread titles, see which grabs your attention more:

NGD - Seven String Bliss

-or-

Super Shady Scammer Luthier Took My Money!


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## VSK Guitars (Aug 2, 2016)

pondman said:


> What I mean is there is a thread started every other week about someone getting ripped off and ignored after placing a custom order with an independent builder.
> Taking the plunge and placing an order seems like a massive risk these days.



It's ruining the custom business for the good guys out there


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