# Progressive metal lessons



## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

Hello everybody,
It has been quite a long time now that I´m searching for some good guitar lessons, book or DVD, to increase my skills and fulfill my curiosity. 
There is all kind of lessons out there, from blues to jazz and rock, but never something really new and tricky.
I´m quite much into progressive metal, the use of technical rhythmic and modal scales. I saw some Rusty Cooley videos, but it´s not really interesting unless you want to learn how to play faster than light itself.
I started to take lessons with Tom Hess, but honestly it doesn´t bring me much so far, and makes me feel like loosing money instead of investing in some strong learning.
I was wondering if any of you know some good lessons or even perhaps some good online guitar teacher?
Thank you


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## stuh84 (Mar 5, 2009)

To be honest, its not so much about being taught progressive metal, as much as applying the concepts.

I'm pretty high up on theory, so know what fits where, what gets a certain mood and the like, and also find time signature changes and different feels pretty straight forward (15/8 into 7/4 sections? Yep, easy ), I've never been taught per se, but I've wrote a lot of the songs in my prog metal band.

The main part I find which gets your good progressive metal, is finding elements you like in ALL instruments, not just guitar, and then mixing them together. I like drums that the kick drum locks in with the guitars, but the rest goes all over the place, I like basslines which sometimes follow a riff, sometimes are crazy. I like keyboard parts which sound massive and epic, but have room to add interesting melodies. Throw these in with all sorts of different guitar riffs, and it tends to come out very progressive sounding.

Simply put, progressive metal is about the whole band, not the guitars alone, so unless you have an appreciation of all instruments, and know how to at least write for them, you aint gonna get far, so I'd take to analysing prog metal bands, see how they go about each instrument, and see what elements interest you the most.


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## Naren (Mar 5, 2009)

stuh84 said:


> Simply put, progressive metal is about the whole band, not the guitars alone, so unless you have an appreciation of all instruments, and know how to at least write for them, you aint gonna get far, so I'd take to analysing prog metal bands, see how they go about each instrument, and see what elements interest you the most.



Exactly. I've been into progressive metal (mostly progressive death metal) for a long time and I write a lot of progressive metal riffs, but depending on the drummer, how progressive they sound will differ. For one song, with our drummer from 2 years ago, it didn't sound very progressive. With our drummer from 1 year ago, it sounded kind of progressive. With our current drummer, it sounds INSANELY progressive. And the riff itself hasn't changed an iota. Or the drum fills he'll throw into a song will just give it a progressive feel. 6/4 drums over 4/4 or something like that and a not particularly progressive metal sounding riff will suddenly sound really progressive.

I never really thought of it as something you learn from a book. You can just take music theory that you learned from jazz or classical (or whatever) and apply it however you want. I just naturally tend to write songs in time signatures like 5/8 and 9/8 or breaks in 7/4.  (in the past, I would always change them from their odd time signature into a more manageable one like 4/4 or 3/4. Nowadays I'm more inclined to leave them the way I originally wrote them).

But, that is a really good point about guitars not being the only thing that make something sound "progressive." I personally don't care for "progressive metal" vocals, which is one reason why I'm generally into "progressive death metal" bands (Cynic, Athiest, Opeth, Nile, etc.).


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

I have to say I was expecting such answers..
I know that progressive metal get its sound because of the whole band, but there is still a lot coming from the guitar in my opinion (I don´t speak about prog metal bands which just throw random guitar riffs that doesn´t sound like anything particular and add massive keyboards in unusual time signature to make it sounding prog). What I like in progressive metal, it´s mostly the mix between catchy melodies and technical riffing. 
I know I can handle the guitar quite well about almost any kind of music, but I need superior skills and knowledge to be able to make some good material by my own. 
You can feel when something has been composed randomly and when something that has been really worked hard. 
I want to control what I compose.


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## stuh84 (Mar 5, 2009)

That doesn't come from being taught how to be in control though, that comes from practicing it, just like anything you want control in, you can be given the material in a hundred different forms, but until you apply it, it means nothing.

I've been composing songs since about 6 months from playing guitar, and it took me until about....maybe 5/6 years of playing before I was writing anything progressive and how I wanted it?

Still, knowing theory is going to help you insanely well to get to where you want, how is your music theory knowledge?


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

stuh84 said:


> That doesn't come from being taught how to be in control though, that comes from practicing it, just like anything you want control in, you can be given the material in a hundred different forms, but until you apply it, it means nothing.
> 
> I've been composing songs since about 6 months from playing guitar, and it took me until about....maybe 5/6 years of playing before I was writing anything progressive and how I wanted it?
> 
> Still, knowing theory is going to help you insanely well to get to where you want, how is your music theory knowledge?



I´ve been studying music theory for 5 years when I was younger. I played saxophone for 7 years, bass guitar for 2 years and guitar since 3 years now.
My knowledges about music theory are quite good, but still it doesn´t get me anywhere interesting in my opinion.


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## stuh84 (Mar 5, 2009)

I can't see why you can't apply it then, if you want catchy melodies, then Aeolian over a 6-7-1 chord progression is one of the easiest ways to get it.

I just think you are going to have practicing writing the way you want, and not kind of, I don't know, expect it to happen? I'm still learning every single time I write, but my writing style, and my bands, is very progressive, especially some of the newer stuff. Only one of us though has any form of musical training (if you dismiss the fact I did a music tech/sound engineering degree at university), and we've yet to play any of his tracks cos he's yet to bring one playable to the band yet. 

The one in my band who tends to write the most progressive stuff, without sounding random, is the guy that used to play metalcore and knows no theory whatsoever, and has never had a guitar lesson in his life.

You just need to find the elements in all instruments that you like, and start using them, aim to compose like that, and keep practicing composing until you get to the kind of sound you want. Like I said, it took me 4 and a half years to get there, so don't expect it to be a quick process either


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

Yea I know that it takes a long time..
About lessons, I thought about something like that:
Phrygian Soloing - Advanced Lesson
The kind of thing that makes you work on modes with lot of different techniques.


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## stuh84 (Mar 5, 2009)

insaneguitar.net

That is about the best site I've seen for lessons myself.


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

Ok, I&#180;m going to check it out

Otherwise, any people who knows a good book about modal scales, techniques, chord progressions and their use?


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## vontetzianos (Mar 5, 2009)

I find the best way to develop a stronger pallette whilst still practicing technique and keeping it musical is to play songs from non metal artists. Also, maybe what you need unless you're learning techniques from the start is to pick some challenging pieces and work rigourously to perfect them. "Lessons" didn't really cut it for me: they were just boring repititions of old concepts.

Seeing how you're into progressive and technical try master some of Petrucci's work or maybe some Blotted Science, Watchtower and Spastic Ink. Anything from teh Jarzombeks will really help you rhythmically and technically. Hope this helps.


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

vontetzianos said:


> I find the best way to develop a stronger pallette whilst still practicing technique and keeping it musical is to play songs from non metal artists. Also, maybe what you need unless you're learning techniques from the start is to pick some challenging pieces and work rigourously to perfect them. "Lessons" didn't really cut it for me: they were just boring repititions of old concepts.
> 
> Seeing how you're into progressive and technical try master some of Petrucci's work or maybe some Blotted Science, Watchtower and Spastic Ink. Anything from teh Jarzombeks will really help you rhythmically and technically. Hope this helps.



Yea I already study most of Petrucci&#180;s work.
I think it&#180;s the same for me about lessons.. I really need to understand what is the point of the theory, where can I use it, what kind of mood it can create, etc.. I guess that&#180;s why I used to hate mathematics while I was good in sciences 
But I&#180;m going to take your advices and see how it works out


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## Daggorath (Mar 5, 2009)

Practise by doing. Write a song you'd like to hear and don't be afraid of writing a bad song. That's the only way you learn what you like and dislike the sound of.


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

Daggorath said:


> Practise by doing. Write a song you'd like to hear and don't be afraid of writing a bad song. That's the only way you learn what you like and dislike the sound of.



The problem is that always want things to be perfect, especially about what I compose, and that brings me to not be satisfied at the end. Like the first real song for my band, I had really good feedback about it, but I think it could be much better.


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## stuh84 (Mar 5, 2009)

Well thats a good thing, if you aren't happy with it, you work on it till you are happier, thats how songwriting works. You aint gonna nail it first time you try


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## JakeRI (Mar 5, 2009)

take jazz lessons. it wont pay off right away, but in 6-9 months you will see massive changes in your playing.


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## Origins (Mar 5, 2009)

JakeRI said:


> take jazz lessons. it wont pay off right away, but in 6-9 months you will see massive changes in your playing.



I&#180;d like to take lessons but I&#180;m in Finland in the middle of nowhere, so...
I would love to learn from Greg Howe tho, but it&#180;s way too expensive for me


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## vontetzianos (Mar 13, 2009)

If you want supreme application of the modes within a very rhythmic and technical setting, check out Al Di Meola's work. If you want to "shred" like cooley look elsewhere, but his fusion playing is an excellent way of developing strong technique in a very modal and rhythmic context. As has been said here already; stuff in progressive metal isn't really new, just applications of concepts.


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## ShadyDavey (Mar 13, 2009)

vontetzianos said:


> If you want supreme application of the modes within a very rhythmic and technical setting, check out Al Di Meola's work. If you want to "shred" like cooley look elsewhere, but his fusion playing is an excellent way of developing strong technique in a very modal and rhythmic context. As has been said here already; stuff in progressive metal isn't really new, just applications of concepts.



This ^^ 

A lot of fusion players leave metal players in the dirt when it comes to technique and phrasing - they just don't flaunt it. Look at who Petrucci's big influences are - Steve Howe, Al DiMeloa, Allen Holdsworth.....that says it all really.

(And there are masses of their videos on Youtube/Google Video  )


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## Vigil87420 (Mar 13, 2009)

the guitar grimoire books look pretty neat


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## vontetzianos (Mar 13, 2009)

If you want to do more of a holdworthian legato thing, you may want to check out derryl gabel's legato phrases. Some of the voicing may be a bit too jazz oriented, but half the fun is matching them to your own needs, and they'll definitely give you a workout and help you visualise the fretboard.


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## Origins (Mar 13, 2009)

vontetzianos said:


> If you want to do more of a holdworthian legato thing, you may want to check out derryl gabel's legato phrases. Some of the voicing may be a bit too jazz oriented, but half the fun is matching them to your own needs, and they'll definitely give you a workout and help you visualise the fretboard.



Thank you a lot for those precious information 
I will check it all


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