# Vik Drama: Round 3



## MikeH

As 99.9999% of the metal community have heard already, Paul and Shawn of Cynic have publicly confirmed that they are gay (which I applaud). Vik had the distasteful balls to post this on his Facebook.







Fairly vague, but you can probably guess what he's referring to, seeing as Paul is a .strandberg* endorsee. But too vague to come right out and call him a homophobe.

UNTIL!






How big of a douchebag can you be, especially knowing that the majority of artists you cater to are progressive/djank (sp?) guitarists who either personally know the guys in Cynic, have toured with them, or at least look up to them as inspiration. I really hope he catches a lot of shit for this.


----------



## asher

Mat's got fuller screenshots in the ViK Dealer thread.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/4034989-post928.html


----------



## MikeH

Ah, apologies. I think it should be left up here, since more people visit the off-topic section and should be informed of this douchery.

Also, Nolly, the nicest guy in the world, telling you he's disappointed in you has to be a huge shot to the nuts.


----------



## asher

MikeH said:


> Ah, apologies. I think it should be left up here, since more people visit the off-topic section and should be informed of this douchery.
> 
> Also, Nolly, the nicest guy in the world, telling you he's disappointed in you has to be a huge shot to the nuts.



Yep  although I suspect the mods will fold it.


----------



## lewstherin006

So it seems that vik has said some comments that didnt sit well with Nolly, and Nolly has ended his endorsement with Vik. 

Proof:
https://scontent-a-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net...5_10152525707341802_7482720383756907024_n.jpg

If you check Nolly's facebook page, he has released a statement on it. Vik seems to be digging himself a deep hole.....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Well he can thoroughly go .... himself for that.

EDIT: Nolly's statement.



> Earlier this year ViK Guitars and I privately ended our endorsement agreement at the end of its specified contract period. I was dissatisfied with the recent customer service issues I had observed and felt that it wasn't right to continue with further contractual obligation. With his word that he was working to resolve those issues, we agreed to keep the matter private. However, his recent anti-gay comments have pushed me to make a statement: As a firm supporter of LGBT rights, I find his sentiments offensive and disgusting, and moving forwards I simply cannot have my name associated with his brand.
> 
> To those that have purchased my signature ViK or any other model on my recommendation and have experienced customer service issues, delays, or are similarly offended by the anti-LGBT comments he has publicly expressed, I can only apologise. My experience with ViK Guitars had been extremely positive at the time of my endorsement, and I do want to be clear that the endorsement was based on my genuine belief that the guitars he builds are among the very best available.
> 
> I am honestly shocked by this situation, and I'm still gathering my thoughts on the matter.


----------



## liamh

If there's a music community you really don't want to reveal yourself as a homophobe to, especially if you own a business catering primarily to the same community, its the metal community.
We don't put up with that shit.
Stupid move by Vik, bigotry will always be massively to your detriment if you own a business.


----------



## Enselmis

Link to round 1 and 2?


----------



## Promit

I'm glad I don't have a Vik guitar, I'd sell it if I did. Scumbag.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I don't know about another round, but previously he got a lot of flak for bashing a small builder for copying his design for a one-off custom.


----------



## Necris

liamh said:


> *If there's a music community you really don't want to reveal yourself as a homophobe to**... its the metal community.*



We've clearly had very, very different experiences with metal fans, unfortunately. My experiences with metal fans have lead me to believe that homophobia is the default mindset for a metal listener. The members of this forum are, generally, outliers.


----------



## Gmork

im a bit in the dark as i dont know this vik fellow but he has just made an enemy. what a f*cking dick. im proud to be part of the universal metal community in which it seems to excepts all types of people. then there are these guys setting it back. go play f*cking football or some sh*t. (no offence to the nice "jocks")


----------



## ItWillDo

Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people) but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion? Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either. 

If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid. But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.


----------



## Promit

ItWillDo said:


> Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people) but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion? Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either.
> 
> If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid. But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.


I think that's a longer discussion arc, tied into a lot of recent events (for example the Mozilla/Eich incident). But the long and short of it is, imagine he said "I don't like blacks" or "I don't like Jews" or whatever. It's along those lines. It is MY opinion that such a person deserves no business and no kindness, and I haven't seen anyone do anything other than express similar opinions.


----------



## Promit

Addendum: I suspect that if he'd attacked something less mainstream (let's say polyamory/polygamy, transsexuality, whatever), that there wouldn't be a lynch mob. That's a reflection of our society and accepted morality, for better or worse.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

It's good to voice distaste and make people aware. Otherwise people will continue funding people with views that strongly oppose their own. I never want to help feed a piece of shit racist, homophobe, or rapist. If somebody finds out someone is guilty of that sort of thing, it's good to let anyone and everyone know so they can spend money accordingly. This dude is a ....ing .... and I hope his business rots.


----------



## ItWillDo

Promit said:


> I think that's a longer discussion arc, tied into a lot of recent events (for example the Mozilla/Eich incident). But the long and short of it is, imagine he said "I don't like blacks" or "I don't like Jews" or whatever. It's along those lines. It is MY opinion that such a person deserves no business and no kindness, and I haven't seen anyone do anything other than express similar opinions.



Fair enough. I've dealt with enough racists on both sides of the spectrum but I'm still more of a live and let live kind of guy. As long as it doesn't escalate into some form of (personal) attack in a physical or verbal context, I'm quite alright with people being able to voice their opinion whatever this may be. Everyone is different on the outside but also on the inside.


----------



## russmuller

I don't know what kind of contractual obligations are in place, but if I was Nolly I'd seriously consider taking my name off the Duality.

I used to have a lot of respect for Vik, but it has worn thinner with his lack of professionalism in each of these outbursts over the past however-many months. It's a shame he makes such great guitars, but I really dislike his attitude and unprofessional conduct.

**edit: looks like the Nolly endorsement is already over http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/general-music-discussion/270476-vik-drama-round-3-a.html


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I can't wait for the super-edgy people to start defending him.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

ItWillDo said:


> Fair enough. I've dealt with enough racists on both sides of the spectrum but I'm still more of a live and let live kind of guy. As long as it doesn't escalate into some form of (personal) attack in a physical or verbal context, I'm quite alright with people being able to voice their opinion whatever this may be. Everyone is different on the outside but also on the inside.



But that's exactly what this is. One guy voiced his opinion, and then others are voicing theirs in response. He's full well allowed to feel the way he does, and people are free to disagree with that. And homophobia is a pretty big issue when it's kind of legal in more states to .... a corpse than it is to marry someone of the same gender. It's not exactly a "live and let live" situation when one group is actively oppressed.


----------



## lewstherin006

ItWillDo said:


> Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people) but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion? Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either.
> 
> If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid. But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.



If you run a business you can not go around putting anyone down. Any person with money is a customer. Plus when you say something that makes your biggest supporter break ties with you, that is stupid. Vik can have his opinion but it will/has cost him greatly.


----------



## simonXsludge

Well, I hope he lost some more potential customers, straight and gay alike.


----------



## Danukenator

I almost ordered a Vik and pulled out at the very last minute due to the recent sketchiness. I wouldn't own a guitar from a dude like that. Some people who are very close to me are gay/bi/trans.


----------



## NaYoN

ItWillDo said:


> Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people) but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion? Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either.
> 
> If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid. But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.


----------



## technomancer

Enselmis said:


> Link to round 1 and 2?



Check the Vik thread in Dealers. I would guess Round 1 was losing his mind when somebody built a clone of one of his guitars and Round 2 was canceling orders of anybody that was critical of him being way overdue on his builds and informing other people their orders would be canceled if they discussed it.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

GOODBYE VIK!

#vikdontbeadick


----------



## MetalBuddah

Our very own EtherealEntity being awesome as usual.


----------



## cjms1997

To be completely honest, I hope his business dies. The guy makes exceptionally good guitars, but this shit isn't cool. I have friends that are gay, and I have friends that don't support being gay but the key difference is that they don't go out and say "Heh well being gay is wrong and I hate everything who's gay." They keep quite about their opinions, and just say live and let live. That's the way shit should be. Live and let live. Let people live their lives the way they want to, even though you might not agree with it.


----------



## AngstRiddenDreams

Disgusting. 
I have a good friend who met a girl that got him into religion hard, and he made the statement, "I don't understand why anyone would choose to be gay, they're just gonna go to hell". I honestly couldn't believe that someone I grew up with thought this way. 
There is no room for intolerance of any kind. Fvck Vik.


----------



## AndruwX

I don't why but there are a lot of luthiers that when they earn a little of fame they just star being so full of shit.


----------



## welsh_7stinger

From a business stand point posting shit like that on a PUBLIC social networking site is absolutely moronic and almost business suicide. I don't wish him to lose his job as that is just harsh. but i do hope every single customer he has atm on his waiting list just cancels.


----------



## TheWarAgainstTime

You'd think that with two existing "rounds" of backlash against him, Vik would be more mindful of what he puts on social media; especially something as controversial as hating on gays  

His opinion of people is his business, but I believe people on his friends list have the right to lash back when he posts something like this since it pops up on their feed and in a way becomes their business too, you know? I too share in the disappointment in Vik


----------



## Alimination

Man didn't see that coming. *welp*

Going to blast up some cynic now.


----------



## pink freud

AndruwX said:


> I don't why but there are a lot of luthiers that when they earn a little of fame they just star being so full of shit.



Maybe because they enter into the field as an extension of a hobby instead of a started business? I've known some pretty harsh small-business owners (one of them even had a "Don't hire any more black guys, ever" policy) but they were smart enough to keep that shit to themselves and outside of public view. In a way it's a double-edged sword: It sucks that there are people like that, but when they spout off at least now you _know._


----------



## Hollowway

Whoa! What an idiot! Exactly what book on business is this guy reading? It's getting to the point where I'm going to watch this guy closely and write a book on how to run a business by suggesting the exact opposite of whatever he does.


----------



## broj15

so who else is going to buy a vik for relatively cheap now that they have this negative stigma attached to them just because people can't handle a differing opinion?


----------



## asher

broj15 said:


> so who else is going to buy a vik for relatively cheap now that they have this negative stigma attached to them just because people can't handle a differing opinion?


----------



## Alex Kenivel

broj15 said:


> so who else is going to buy a vik for relatively cheap now that they have this negative stigma attached to them just because people can't handle a differing opinion?


 
I kinda find this funny...but too soon...


----------



## Hollowway

broj15 said:


> so who else is going to buy a vik for relatively cheap now that they have this negative stigma attached to them just because people can't handle a differing opinion?



Holy avatar irony, Batman!

It's almost like... you can't handle people having a differing opinion from you. (SeewhatIdidthere?)


----------



## Necris

broj15 said:


> so who else is going to buy a vik for relatively cheap now that they have this negative stigma attached to them just because people can't handle a differing opinion?





I'll get one cheap and have it refinished in rainbow colors.

I think people are doing just fine "handling" his opinion. Actively or passively disagreeing with it is handling it just as much as actively or passively agreeing with it is handling it.


----------



## Alex Kenivel

I know people who are homophobes, and I know plenty of gay/les/bi people too. There are plenty of good people/assholes on both sides.


----------



## broj15

Hollowway said:


> Holy avatar irony, Batman!
> 
> It's almost like... you can't handle people having a differing opinion from you. (SeewhatIdidthere?)



not sure what my avatar has to do with it (Efrim from GY!BE) other than I'm sure he's a supporter of "alternative lifestyles" (idk, all i know about his political beliefs is his disdain of Canadia's / Quebec's government.) I just think it's funny that anytime someone voices an opinion that goes against the grain there's always a million people lined up to berate them over it. Was it a dumb business decision? yes. Do I agree with him? certainly not. It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

My little picture/flyer that I made to commemorate this occasion. Feel free to head on over to the Human Rights Organization, or feel free to hashtag #vikdontbeadick







Vik doesn't like headless guitars...so I'm assuming he doesn't like headless people.
And he doesn't like gay people...so I'm assuming he doesn't like gay guitars.


----------



## Promit

broj15 said:


> It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.


They are absolutely not two sides of the same coin, and saying that they are reveals a very deep ignorance on your part.


----------



## ElysianGuitars

broj15 said:


> not sure what my avatar has to do with it (Efrim from GY!BE) other than I'm sure he's a supporter of "alternative lifestyles" (idk, all i know about his political beliefs is his disdain of Canadia's / Quebec's government.) I just think it's funny that anytime someone voices an opinion that goes against the grain there's always a million people lined up to berate them over it. Was it a dumb business decision? yes. Do I agree with him? certainly not. It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



If you say something publicly you have to be prepared for the public to respond.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I can't wait for the super-edgy people to start defending him.



Called it.


----------



## Necris

broj15 said:


> intolerant of homophobes
> 
> intolerant of homosexuals
> 
> 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



No.

Those who won't tolerate homophobia are voicing disdain for a viewpoint and it's effect on a group of people.

Those who won't tolerate homosexuals are voicing hatred for a group of people.


----------



## Omura

So.. Buckle up, this might be a long one. 
It even comes with a backstory. Yes it's going to be that long. 
As a child, I had some pretty strong opinions.. On pretty much everything, I didn't have good arguments behind them always, and I was/an very stubborn. I wasn't about to back down from an argument. I made a pot of enemies then. People don't like arguing as a general rule. As I got older, my views on some things changed and I also learned not to argue. I learned not to bother voicing an opinion or trying to show someone what they did wrong. Because it would just turn into some pointless, totally de-railed arguement. Anyway, my opinion on gays and gay rights has always been that of: they're people, they like other people, that's fine. Legally I think they should be entitled to the exact same legal rights as a married couple. But as to whether or not it should be called marriage is sketchier. Marriage is something that is of a religious origin, and messing with religious views is just a good way to piss everyone off. As such I feel there should be a way to let gay people have those legal entitlements, in a way they will embrace and actually make use of, without calling it marriage. How to do that, I don't know. I do know that 'equal human rights' is an awful idea as a movement. It would imply that equal rights are to be given to murderers, rapists, pediphiles, incestual persons, those involved in beastiality, drug trafficking etc. basically it opens a can of worms where everyone gets to say 'but they get their rights, so you have to give me mine' which wouldn't end well. The whole fight is being staged in a 'you're wrong because my opinion is different slinging contest' where every poorly informed, biased, angry person with a keyboard can join in a fight that doesn't actually help anyone. It's like watching savages from both sides try to kill each other with plastic cutlery. Thing is, my wife has strong opinions on one side of this, some of which I'm board with, some in not, some is now part of my view, but her view hasn't changed from after I explained mine. Thing is, she gets so het-up about it all, just like everyone here is, they miss the part where everyone is just slipping into this place where eveything is just petty arguing. Social media is a terrible thing, as every random little opinion, joke, and happening that you upload turns into cannon-fodder for someone else. I haven't uploaded a status on there in over 6-months, because it won't do anything good except polarise the people I know one way or another. 
At the end of the day: Vik said something a silly. 
As a businessman, it was very silly. He should really keep his life an his business life separate. In person and on the web. 
And at the same time, everyone on the web is now slinging shit at him, generally being equally petty. It's not a fight anymore, it's just small children quarrelling. If everyone in the world could act like civil, reasonable people. Keep themselves to themselves, and how some respect to others. There would be a lot less time wasted on crap like this, and a lot more progress in areas of the world an society that needs to happen. That's just my view. Sorry for the long post, I hope it made some sense, and I hope I managed to give a perspective on this without getting too involved.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

broj15 said:


> not sure what my avatar has to do with it (Efrim from GY!BE) other than I'm sure he's a supporter of "alternative lifestyles" (idk, all i know about his political beliefs is his disdain of Canadia's / Quebec's government.) I just think it's funny that anytime someone voices an opinion that goes against the grain there's always a million people lined up to berate them over it. Was it a dumb business decision? yes. Do I agree with him? certainly not. It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



Excuse me? Two sides of the same intolerance coin? That is by far one of the most foolish ....ing things I've ever heard. The difference is that "tolerating" gays harms not a god damned thing. Tolerating a bigot perpetuates hate and violence. People need to speak out against this shit. This is the kind of shit people get beaten and killed over. That is not something anyone should tolerate. 

Your ignorant words are belched up just like somebody on the greener side of the privilege fence. Like someone who hasn't had to fear for their life just for loving someone. I guess I should have been more tolerant of my homophobic rapists, right? You can .... right off with your piss poor excuse for logic, you make me sick.


----------



## elq

technomancer said:


> Round 1 was losing his mind when somebody built a clone of one of his guitars...




someone found the thread where Vik built a Suhr clone


----------



## Watty

Omura said:


> So.. Buckle up, this might be a long one.
> 
> adsiufghaspdi;fghas;dfg



Internet courtesy dictates you use, at the very least, some returns in that block of text.

That aside, equivocation over tolerance on both sides of the issue is bat shit insane. If you think that works, just wait for the pedophiles to crawl out of the woodwork saying that being intolerant of their sexuality and right to objectify children without the mental competency to know its not okay is just as bad as them doing it in the first place.

In our society (and business relations, as per this specific issue), you're free to say and do whatever you like within the confines of the law. What you are not free from is reprisal, whether verbal or transactional, that occurs as a result of said occurrence. It's like the Donald Sterling thing. I defend his right to say it and I certainly don't believe legal action should be taken against him, but I completely support the NBA for taking action to expel him from their private business venture for what he said. He's allowed to voice it, but expecting no backlash and whining when it happens is the height of ignorance.


----------



## Necris

Omura said:


> 1) Marriage is something that is of a religious origin, ...
> 
> 2) I do know that 'equal human rights' is an awful idea as a movement. It would imply that equal rights are to be given to murderers, rapists, pediphiles, incestual persons, those involved in beastiality, drug trafficking etc. basically it opens a can of worms where everyone gets to say 'but they get their rights, so you have to give me mine' which wouldn't end well.



1) Marriage in a Church, yes. Marriage itself, no.

2.) It's amusing you mention bestiality. Because bestiality was still legal in some states while having sex with a person of the same gender could get you thrown in prison. Edit: It's _still_ legal in 14 states, D.C. and various unincorporated territories like Guam .

As far as I'm aware possession of child pornography wasn't made a criminal offense in the entirety of the United States before that changed either. 

(Forgive me if I'm not totally willing to google that one. )

Also, Murderers, Rapists, Pedophiles, those who engage in incest, drug traffickers, etc. Do have the same rights as any other person. Until they're caught. 
Regarding murderers and those convicted of capital crimes that's one of the issues people have with the death penalty. Is there really any act heinous enough that by committing it a person has forfeited their right to life? It's a valid question without an easy answer.


I don't think anyone pushing for equal human rights has _ever _promoted the idea that one person has the right to infringe on another persons rights.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Don't worry, guys. This will all blow over once Vik apologizes, which I'm sure he will. If there's anything Vik is known for, it's contrition and humilitaaAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA...

...hehehe. Heh.

Sorry. I couldn't do it.


----------



## broj15

I'm not gonna quote everyone that took offense to what I said because that would take up too much room, but let me elaborate on what I meant when I said



> It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



Vic hating on homosexuals isn't going to stop people from being homosexuals and people giving shit to Vic for his opinion isn't going to change it. in fact it will probably just fortify it further: "look at all these gays and gay-sympathizers giving me shit. I sure am glad I hate those gays and gay-sympathizers". It would honestly be better to have just let the comment pass. He was surely doing it to garner attention for himself and use his position in the community to further his views and he's been successful in doing that. Wether people are talking bad about him doesn't matter, because here we all are talking about him. And just to further clarify, I don't agree with his position. Shit, I was hit on by a gay guy not too long ago and just laughed it off because, according to him, I gave off that vibe 


Edit: but as far as my side of the "privilege fence" is concerned, I'm sorry I was born a piece of CIS scum.


----------



## noUser01

I'm just going to copy and paste my status from Facebook instead of typing out a long rant.

"I've tried several times to write something on how I feel about the recent controversy in the guitar world lately with Vik Kuletski of ViK guitars expressing his negative feelings towards gay people, and all I can say is that people come first. Not sexuality, not music, people. 

If anything is standing in the way of you loving another human being, and telling them that they are your friend, someone you care about, someone who you will protect, you need to throw it away.

Don't buy ViK Guitars. I know how amazing those guitars are and how so many of us have wanted one since we first heard about them or played one but I beg you to remember this... That guitar will never be as important as sending a message to every gay person out there telling them that you support them, and telling Vik that it's not about who you love, it's about the fact that you DO love."


----------



## Zalbu

broj15 said:


> not sure what my avatar has to do with it (Efrim from GY!BE) other than I'm sure he's a supporter of "alternative lifestyles" (idk, all i know about his political beliefs is his disdain of Canadia's / Quebec's government.) I just think it's funny that anytime someone voices an opinion that goes against the grain there's always a million people lined up to berate them over it. Was it a dumb business decision? yes. Do I agree with him? certainly not. It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.


Not tolerating intolerance isn't intolerance.


----------



## Joose

What a douchebag.


----------



## Necris

broj15 said:


> Edit: but as far as my side of the "privilege fence" is concerned, I'm sorry I was born a piece of CIS scum.




 

I'm going to assume you have no idea what Cis refers to (gender _not_ sexuality), if you do what are you on about?


----------



## Jonathan20022

Are you kidding me?

No sympathy.


----------



## Joose

Everyone with one of his guitars should do a George Michael cover and post it to his FB.


----------



## broj15

Necris said:


> I'm going to assume you have no idea what Cis refers to (gender _not_ sexuality), if you do what are you on about?



Sorry if i'm misinformed. I just associate terms like "privilege fence" and "cis scum" with social justice bloggers.


----------



## noUser01

Class act.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

ConnorGilks said:


> Class act.



Yeah, us guys criticizing Vik are on the same level as this.


----------



## Joose

^Exactly why I (Arick) posted that. Knew he'd have a super (duper) classy response. Also, I doubt he has any clue there was a Family Guy reference in there.



broj15 said:


> Sorry if i'm misinformed. I just associate terms like "privilege fence" and "cis scum" with social justice bloggers.


----------



## Jzbass25

I guess I won't be purchasing a nolly duality anytime soon.


----------



## noUser01

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Yeah, us guys criticizing Vik are on the same level as this.



Seeing some of the comments on his page and the ViK Guitars page - yes, there are some people sinking to his level. But just criticizing him or his opinion is in no way a show of poor character or lack of professionalism. So personally, I disagree.


----------



## Insinfier




----------



## Joose

I see a ViK guitar in Bill O'Reilly's future.


----------



## PyramidSmasher

ItWillDo said:


> Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people) but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion? Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either.
> 
> If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid. But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.



Then obviously you can buy his guitars and the people who arent cool with it wont???

Easy right?


----------



## Khoi

Jzbass25 said:


> I guess I won't be purchasing a nolly duality anytime soon.



no longer a Nolly Duality, Nolly has renounced any association with Vik


----------



## Sofos

I want to buy/build a rip-off of the Duality in rainbow colors that is converted to headless, because fvck Vik


----------



## PyramidSmasher

Omura said:


> I do know that 'equal human rights' is an awful idea as a movement. It would imply that equal rights are to be given to murderers, rapists, pediphiles, incestual persons, those involved in beastiality, drug trafficking etc. basically it opens a can of worms where everyone gets to say 'but they get their rights, so you have to give me mine' which wouldn't end well.



You are showing your lack of education by talking about something you know nothing about... "Rights" are stripped from those who infringe upon the rights of others... which is why you go to jail for murder. That's what the entire justice system exists to enforce. I.E. a rapist infringes on the rights of a child who can not consent, and consequently forfeits their own rights by displaying that they do not abide by the contract themselves.


Why are you even weighing in on this man you didnt even spell pedophiles right.


----------



## noUser01

Sofos said:


> I want to buy/build a rip-off of the Duality in rainbow colors that is converted to headless, because fvck Vik



Group buy? All dudes. Sausage fest buy.


----------



## VigilSerus

Hate to do this crosspost thing, so I'll just cut this post I had down a little. I found this thread later after seeing a link someone posted about Cynic in the LGBT thread.



ShadowsfeaR said:


> I didn't really care, he was just expressing his opinion. I'm bi but I don't really see the need to hate every person that I come across as bigoted. In something like a business setting, as long as it doesn't permeate the business, I am fine with it. Vik made those comments on his personal FB iirc. When I found out the whole "headless guitar" hate just because of Paul, I got irked. What went too far was the comment Vik made on the VIK GUITARS PAGE ITSELF about "doubling" the price if you weren't heterosexual. I can justify the hate that people are expressing toward him.



What I want to stress here is having business etiquette. If I had my own business, and a well and capable, working neo-nazi applied, I wouldn't judge his employment based on his views. It is if he were to cause trouble with me or customers that I would absolutely fire him. If Vik had only subtly dropped his distaste towards homosexuality, I would have just waved it away and not cared. If I had the money I would even still buy his guitars. But he kind of persisted a little. He wasn't _that_ subtle. When it reaches the point that it affects your business, that's where the line is crossed.


----------



## Hollowway

broj15 said:


> not sure what my avatar has to do with it (Efrim from GY!BE) other than I'm sure he's a supporter of "alternative lifestyles" (idk, all i know about his political beliefs is his disdain of Canadia's / Quebec's government.) I just think it's funny that anytime someone voices an opinion that goes against the grain there's always a million people lined up to berate them over it. Was it a dumb business decision? yes. Do I agree with him? certainly not. It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



Yeah, I meant that in the avatar he's holding up a sign that says, "HOPE," which is usually used by people trying to bring humanity together. And you made a post that voiced tolerance for dividing humanity.

The issue that I think your missing is that someone saying, "I hate gays" is not like someone saying, "I hate hamburgers." Most people may be tolerant of both gays and hamburgers, but when was the last time someone who likes hamburgers was beat up or killed for liking them? You HAVE to know that there is a sordid history of homophobia, and for many people it isn't an opinion, but is a mandate to hurt or kill others. Because those people are emboldened by, and use as rationalization, the hatred of others, this kind of thing is generally not tolerated. It's not because of a matter of opinion.

Your argument is like saying that you're allowed to run into a crowded theater and yell, "FIRE!" and claim it's your right to free speech that allows that. But you are not allowed to do that, because it's a misinterpretation of what is allowed. So to say that hating a minority group is acceptable behavior is to miss the point of what is an opinion and what is prejudice.

Lastly, from a logic standpoint, you cannot turn an argument back on itself to disprove it. Zaibu put it far more eloquently that I could, with "not tolerating intolerance is not intolerance." That's like saying that is someone hates a group of people, you cannot hate that person, or you are no better than them. The idea is you hate their intolerance for others, not them for who they are. There's a difference, and you've either stumbled into this without thinking it through (and I've been there before) or you cannot understand the distinction because you are not open minded. I don't think most people on here are closed minded, though.


----------



## rapterr15

Steve Jobs was a giant douche, and Apple products continue to sell like hotcakes. Say you don't like gays and your brand is destroyed, even if you're producing a quality product. Now Vik is clearly a douche and I don't support his statements, but it's a strange world we live in when a ruthless bastard like Jobs is idolized by so many, but if you don't agree with dicks going in men's butts then all hell breaks loose.


----------



## broj15

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I meant that in the avatar he's holding up a sign that says, "HOPE," which is usually used by people trying to bring humanity together. And you made a post that voiced tolerance for dividing humanity.
> 
> The issue that I think your missing is that someone saying, "I hate gays" is not like someone saying, "I hate hamburgers." Most people may be tolerant of both gays and hamburgers, but when was the last time someone who likes hamburgers was beat up or killed for liking them? You HAVE to know that there is a sordid history of homophobia, and for many people it isn't an opinion, but is a mandate to hurt or kill others. Because those people are emboldened by, and use as rationalization, the hatred of others, this kind of thing is generally not tolerated. It's not because of a matter of opinion.
> 
> Your argument is like saying that you're allowed to run into a crowded theater and yell, "FIRE!" and claim it's your right to free speech that allows that. But you are not allowed to do that, because it's a misinterpretation of what is allowed. So to say that hating a minority group is acceptable behavior is to miss the point of what is an opinion and what is prejudice.
> 
> Lastly, from a logic standpoint, you cannot turn an argument back on itself to disprove it. Zaibu put it far more eloquently that I could, with "not tolerating intolerance is not intolerance." That's like saying that is someone hates a group of people, you cannot hate that person, or you are no better than them. The idea is you hate their intolerance for others, not them for who they are. There's a difference, and you've either stumbled into this without thinking it through (and I've been there before) or you cannot understand the distinction because you are not open minded. I don't think most people on here are closed minded, though.




not trying to be a dick, really, but i think if you read my other comment it might explain my point better. I believe that giving people like this attention is what gives them their power. Ignore it. let them hate shit in their own vacuum with other people that hate the same. I live in a small town where bigotry towards a lot of stuff is rampant. I get people coming into my place of employment spouting it all them time, trying to get me to voice my opinion, usually already knowing what it is. I simply don't acknowledge it and change the subject. They eventually give up and do't even bring it up when they see me.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

rapterr15 said:


> Steve Jobs was a giant douche, and Apple products continue to sell like hotcakes. Say you don't like gays and your brand is destroyed, even if you're producing a quality product. Now Vik is clearly a douche and I don't support his statements, but it's a strange world we live in when a ruthless bastard like Jobs is idolized by so many, but if you don't agree with dicks going in men's butts then all hell breaks loose.



Oh my f_u_cking god.


----------



## bulb

The right to free speech means that you won't go to jail for speaking your mind, however you will still have to face the consequences that follow the things you choose to say.

People seem to forget this a lot.


----------



## Joose

rapterr15 said:


> Steve Jobs was a giant douche, and Apple products continue to sell like hotcakes. Say you don't like gays and your brand is destroyed, even if you're producing a quality product. Now Vik is clearly a douche and I don't support his statements, but it's a strange world we live in when a ruthless bastard like Jobs is idolized by so many, but if you don't agree with dicks going in men's butts then all hell breaks loose.



Before I say anything, care to explain?


----------



## rapterr15

Joose said:


> Before I say anything, care to explain?



Yea all I'm saying is that while Jobs was the CEO of Apple, there was plenty of evidence pointing out the fact that he wasn't exactly a nice, stand-up guy. He was certainly very ambitious, but with that ambition and desire for success came a level of ruthlessness and apathy towards some of his fellow human beings. Even with this information available on the internet, people chose to ignore it, or were simply ignorant, and Apple products continued to sell tremendously well, because they are in fact great products. So basically Jobs treated many of his employees like shit, ended Apple's philanthropic efforts, and had no problem using cheap sweat shops in China to produce his products, but had he made a statement about sexuality it would have crippled him from a business perspective.

My point is that there are plenty of assholes out there who succeed and continue to succeed, but as soon as sexuality enters the fray, it's a whole other ballgame. An asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Does it matter if they don't like gays or if they choose to fire their employees in the elevator as a joke?


----------



## noUser01

rapterr15 said:


> Steve Jobs was a giant douche, and Apple products continue to sell like hotcakes. Say you don't like gays and your brand is destroyed, even if you're producing a quality product. Now Vik is clearly a douche and I don't support his statements, but it's a strange world we live in when a ruthless bastard like Jobs is idolized by so many, but if you don't agree with dicks going in men's butts then all hell breaks loose.



I'm not sure exactly what you want to argue here, it just seems like you want to argue something.

Vik said something stupid, now he's getting the backlash for it. That's what happens, that's life. That's reality. What is there to argue about there?

Also, one man's evidence is another man's lie. It's hard to trust second, third, fourth hand reports. Especially when it's about a major company, because anyone famous enough is bound to have rumors or lies spread about them. When it's straight from the source, that's a bit different. Maybe Steve Jobs was a horrible person, but again, what is your point here?


----------



## rapterr15

And yes what Vik said sucks, so if you disagree then don't buy his products. It's that simple. Someone earlier in the thread said statements such as Viks should not be tolerated and should be punishable by death or something extremely rash along those lines because these words lead to "intolerance and violence". That's just as extreme as being anti-gay. Vik didn't say lynch all homosexuals. He merely indicated he doesn't like gays. An immature viewpoint and suicide business-wise, but he had every right to say what he believes. The dude certainly doesn't deserve to be killed or have violence brought forth against him.


----------



## Joose

rapterr15 said:


> Yea all I'm saying is that while Jobs was the CEO of Apple, there was plenty of evidence pointing out the fact that he wasn't exactly a nice, stand-up guy. He was certainly very ambitious, but with that ambition and desire for success came a level of ruthlessness and apathy towards some of his fellow human beings. Even with this information available on the internet, people chose to ignore it, or were simply ignorant, and Apple products continued to sell tremendously well, because they are in fact great products. So basically Jobs treated many of his employees like shit, ended Apple's philanthropic efforts, and had no problem using cheap sweat shops in China to produce his products, but had he made a statement about sexuality it would have crippled him from a business perspective.
> 
> My point is that there are plenty of assholes out there who succeed and continue to succeed, but as soon as sexuality enters the fray, it's a whole other ballgame. An asshole is an asshole is an asshole. Does it matter if they don't like gays or if they choose to fire their employees in the elevator as a joke?



-I guarantee you own multiple things made in sweat shops.

-I don't recall Jobs ever saying something like "(insert company name)'s VP is gay, no wonder I don't like their products"

-I do see what you're getting at, but it does not work in this particular situation.


----------



## noUser01

rapterr15 said:


> And yes what Vik said sucks, so if you disagree then don't buy his products. It's that simple. Someone earlier in the thread said statements such as Viks should not be tolerated and should be punishable by death or something extremely rash along those lines because these words lead to "intolerance and violence". That's just as extreme as being anti-gay. Vik didn't say lynch all homosexuals. He merely indicated he doesn't like gays. An immature viewpoint and suicide business-wise, but he had every right to say what he believes. The dude certainly doesn't deserve to be killed or have violence brought forth against him.



Right, but you and I both know that any time anything happens there will be extremists on both sides. This isn't news. What is news is the incident with Vik, which is why this thread was made. He deserved the backlash, he has the right to say what he wants, anyone else has the right to call him an idiot for doing so. 

That's it.


----------



## 7stg

I do not support Vik nor other hate groups. To hate someone when they cause no harm to others is wrong.

If gay was straight and straight was gay -


----------



## capoeiraesp

bulb said:


> The right to free speech means that you won't go to jail for speaking your mind, however you will still have to face the consequences that follow the things you choose to say.
> 
> People seem to forget this a lot.



My old Tai Chi instructor once said to me "Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences".
Not exactly super deep words but so to the point.


----------



## darren

Jobs was an uncompromising asshole, but last I checked, he never behaved in a discriminatory manner against entire groups of people. Except maybe idiots. He was definitely intolerant of idiots.


----------



## Dcm81

rapterr15 said:


> Steve Jobs was a giant douche, and Apple products continue to sell like hotcakes. Say you don't like gays and your brand is destroyed, even if you're producing a quality product. Now Vik is clearly a douche and I don't support his statements, but it's a strange world we live in when a ruthless bastard like Jobs is idolized by so many, but if you don't agree with dicks going in men's butts then all hell breaks loose.



I don't really think you can compare the 2. There are plenty of assholes running around, even more so in the ranks of management in huge corporations. Vik was acting like an asshole already in recent time and it's not really a big deal.
Where he crossed the line from just being a regular asshole is his blatant and public disgust of gay people. Jobs might have been a douche but I never heard him slam gays, blacks, jews, muslims or any other specific group so the comparison isn't really usable in this case.


----------



## noUser01

At the end of the day, there is a massive difference between someone admitting to being homophobic, and someone who owns a large corporation that is subject to scrutiny and rumors having very high standards of work.

And I bet you Jobs didn't start hating anyone he fired simply because of something they couldn't change about themselves.


----------



## morethan6

Fvck me, how did Steve Jobs get in here? There's always someone trying to argue the other side of any point, even when the point is as simple as:

"He said something I personally disagree with. Therefore I will not endorse his behaviour or products."

That, as a sentiment, can literally not be incorrect or wrong. And it's what everyone is basically saying. I echo it.

Now can we all move on, forget about this douchebag and go and work out which other more awesome and non-actively-prejudiced luthier we would like to give our money to?

Awesome


----------



## xCaptainx

Absolutely baffling and actually infuriating that people are trying to play off homophobia as no big deal and a personal choice.


----------



## Fringe

Seems like I'm the worst person Vik can imagine...I got myself a Vik inspired build and even let my very good and gay friend touch it 

I knew he's a douche by his actions during the last months, but this really takes the word douche to another level...
I never was so happy to have a Vik style guitar NOT built by him...


----------



## Enselmis

rapterr15 said:


> Steve Jobs was a giant douche, and Apple products continue to sell like hotcakes. Say you don't like gays and your brand is destroyed, even if you're producing a quality product. Now Vik is clearly a douche and I don't support his statements, but it's a strange world we live in when a ruthless bastard like Jobs is idolized by so many, but if you don't agree with dicks going in men's butts then all hell breaks loose.



Steve Jobs did a better job of hiding it from anybody who wasn't interested in digging. When you bought a mac, Steve Jobs didn't personally source each piece and assemble the damn thing before shipping it to you. Hell, I'm sure if he had been caught on video setting rainbow flags on fire and spewing intolerant commentary then the hate would have flown freely as well.

That basketball team owner from the other day is an accurate picture of what happens when the intolerance of influential people is exposed.


----------



## Joose

I have been banned from posting to the ViK Guitars page. 

I made one comment. Fvcker has no issue with letting his supporters post though. What a tool. Now the page is just full of people feeling sorry for him because he's "being bullied".

Edit: Also, he deleted his original post and everything else associated with it. Little does he know, about the screenshots people have... 

Whatever. Dude's an asshole and not exactly great when it comes to customer service anyway.


----------



## noUser01

Joose said:


> I have been banned from posting to the ViK Guitars page.
> 
> I made one comment. Fvcker has no issue with letting his supporters post though. What a tool. Now the page is just full of people feeling sorry for him because he's "being bullied".
> 
> Edit: Also, he deleted his original post and everything else associated with it. Little does he know, about the screenshots people have...
> 
> Whatever. Dude's an asshole and not exactly great when it comes to customer service anyway.



Banning people from his page, deleting comments that aren't 100% behind him? A complete douchebag?

Lucas Mann 2.0


----------



## Orandje

Sofos said:


> I want to buy/build a rip-off of the Duality in rainbow colors that is converted to headless, because fvck Vik



I'm in! But make it a swirl job. Or that Ibanez Petrucci '90s paint work.


----------



## Jzbass25

*mod edit: can we just take a second to stay on topic*


----------



## noUser01

Orandje said:


> I'm in! But make it a swirl job. Or that Ibanez Petrucci '90s paint work.



Rainbow unicorn swirl or bust.


----------



## jonajon91

Making the most of a dark situation here, but some of the facebook comments are comedy gold. Vik has really messed up this time.


----------



## JohnIce

broj15 said:


> Vic hating on homosexuals isn't going to stop people from being homosexuals and people giving shit to Vic for his opinion isn't going to change it. in fact it will probably just fortify it further



Wrong. People like Vik openly opposing homosexuality has caused A FVCKTON of homosexuals to live in fear, denial, lacking self-esteem and inability to have a relationship with who they want. Yeah, there's that.

People openly giving shit to homophobes like Vik for doing this, will (as it already has) little by little establish the idea amongst people that homophobia is wrong and that LGBTQ-rights are not to be questioned.

Also, openly criticizing homophobia is a way to tell the LGBTQ-community that "I'm cool with it, you don't have to be afraid of me". Which is important. Just like showing disdain for racism, rape etc. helps people subjected to such things live in less fear and ultimately live a happier life which is what human rights is all about in the end.


----------



## Andromalia

Necris said:


> We've clearly had very, very different experiences with metal fans, unfortunately. My experiences with metal fans have lead me to believe that homophobia is the default mindset for a metal listener.


For the general population, sadly. Poland isn't exactly known for its open minded population, it's a heavily catholic country who elects very right wing politicians.



> Just like showing disdain for racism


Showing disdain isn't enough. I'm of the opinion that racism, homophobia and other kinds of segregation are culturally inherited traits, that you usually get straight from your parents. At that point reasoning isn't gonna work, making them shut up will.


----------



## Tommy Deaks

The guy is a massive dick. Said it before and I will say it again - he is never getting a penny of my money.

Surprised we haven't had someone in here telling everyone to be stoked for their build and how exciting the Vik USA announcement is going to be.

Can't stand the guy. Personally, I think he deserves everything he gets. Can't believe he still has people defending him.


----------



## hypotc

Can't believe he would actually post this. If he has an issue towards LGBT people, he could have kept it to himself. What a stupid career move.


----------



## DLG

what an asswipe.


----------



## Yo_Wattup

I dont really have a problem with what this guy is saying, A lot of this sort of thing is how you were raised. In the '20s bikinis were considered as digusting as this guys remarks. I employ a kind of live and let live philosophy. I am not excusing this guy's behaviour, I am just saying it doesnt really bother me personally. 

The thing that gets me however is the lack of intelligence required for posting this on facebook, in a progressive, western dominated society. I mean, the concept of keeping certain information and opinions private when running a business, is such an easy one to follow. If this guy is dumb enough to voice such an anti-mainstream opinion while running a business, then how is he smart enough to build guitars? Did he complete 2nd year mathematics? Is he aware of birds? Because that is the level of intelligence he appears to have. 

He will get none of my hard earned, ever, not because of his values and beliefs, but because I in no way believe he is fit for building guitars with such a low level of intelligence.


----------



## Maul Pasvidal

I just wonder what was going on in his head when typing those comments..


----------



## Neilzord

What a complete idiot.


----------



## fps

Vik has shown himself to be on the wrong side of history as we collectively move towards a more tolerant, open-minded, understanding and united future. I'm really proud that so many people on this forum are standing up against his hateful outburst and his rancid mindset.


----------



## Forkface

I wonder how he feels now...
What the hell was he thinking? 

I love the duality shape, but I'll certainly never appreciate them the same way again.

Time for the "duality-inspired" guitars to start dropping


----------



## teamSKDM

I have a friend who unfortunately does not support homosexuality , but i judge him based on our personal interactions not his personal belief. altho i have homosexuals in my family, He means no harm to any homosexuals. that being said, vik seems like that may be in his interests. he has produced some of the most gorgeous guitars, but this guy s a total cock, and he is ruining his (somewhat personal, since facebook is a reflection of his personal life) personal relationship with people via the internet. he has absolutely zero things to gain from this, and eventually hopefully within the next few years, homophobia will be looked at like we look at rascists and how stupid we were back in the day for those thoughts. theres a thin line between the two. both is a hate group directed towards people for being born who they are,which will always be wrong. 

#vikisadick


----------



## rifftrauma




----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

ItWillDo said:


> Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people) but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion? Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either.
> 
> If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid. But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.



I consider this the same as if he made a racist comment.

There is no need to voice your own hatred towards a group of people.
And the context with which it happened...two people pronounce their love for one another and it gives some dick the right to spew hatred for the world to read?

Why is it even important for him to voice his stance on the matter?
It just makes him appear like a self-righteous asshole who hates on others because he can't accept his own sexuality.



Maul Pasvidal said:


> I just wonder what was going on in his head when typing those comments..



Probably homosexual thoughts, which led to him becoming uncomfortably angry with himself and had to vent his frustrations at others who are able to accept and love themselves and be happy.
I find it funny how much this guy ruins his own reputation every time he tries to ruin someone elses.


----------



## dschonn

^ thanks for the off-topic ad...


----------



## Mega-Mads

I really dont get homophobia myself. I dont care what people do in their bedrooms. 
One of my really good friends is openly gay, and still manly as fukk. Noone would know his sexuality unless they saw him with his boyfriend or asked him. :S


----------



## Dayn

I'm happy to see most people here actually supporting basic human decency. It's refreshing.

At least it outweighs the 'harmful bigotry and being challenged on it are both equally bad' bullshit.


----------



## ItWillDo

RV350ALSCYTHE said:


> I consider this the same as if he made a racist comment.
> 
> There is no need to voice your own hatred towards a group of people.
> And the context with which it happened...two people pronounce their love for one another and it gives some dick the right to spew hatred for the world to read?
> 
> Why is it even important for him to voice his stance on the matter?
> It just makes him appear like a self-righteous asshole who hates on others because he can't accept his own sexuality.



Well honestly, as mentioned on page 1, this whole deal probably became a shitstorm mainly because sexuality seems to be a touchy subject. If Vik would have said "Man, I hate those mainstream-music listening plebeians", he probably would've gotten more support than criticism (altough the progressive music community is far more open on this subject than the 'mainstream' metal/rock community) despite also voicing hate for a group of people who just share love for a genre of music. 

I don't support the guy at all and I really really don't give a shit about what/who people love (as long as they don't inflict damage upon eachother), I just feel like society in general has become so sensitive to diverging opinions on matters such as racism, gender, sexuality, etc that we ourselves are becoming intolerant of different opinions (despite all of you trying to convince yourself that this isn't the case). 

And I understand all the disappointed reactions on the FB-post he made, but all these people actually going through the effort of actively boycotting his business for this is just a step too far in my opinion.


----------



## Djdnxgdj3983jrjd8udb3bcns

ItWillDo said:


> Well honestly, as mentioned on page 1, this whole deal probably became a shitstorm mainly because sexuality seems to be a touchy subject. If Vik would have said "Man, I hate those mainstream-music listening plebeians", he probably would've gotten more support than criticism (altough the progressive music community is far more open on this subject than the 'mainstream' metal/rock community) despite also voicing hate for a group of people who just share love for a genre of music.
> 
> I don't support the guy at all and I really really don't give a shit about what/who people love (as long as they don't inflict damage upon eachother), I just feel like society in general has become so sensitive to diverging opinions on matters such as racism, gender, sexuality, etc that we ourselves are becoming intolerant of different opinions (despite all of you trying to convince yourself that this isn't the case).
> 
> And I understand all the disappointed reactions on the FB-post he made, but all these people actually going through the effort of actively boycotting his business for this is just a step too far in my opinion.



The difference here is the context though. If he came out with "Aww shucks, x-luthier done made a ugly geetar for mainstream plebians, sooooo sad   " it wouldn't be nearly as culturally inappropriate because people who listen to mainstream music don't have a history of being *beaten up and treated like criminals* just for listening to mainstream music.


----------



## petereanima

ItWillDo said:


> I don't support the guy at all and I really really don't give a shit about what/who people love (as long as they don't inflict damage upon eachother), I just feel like society in general has become so sensitive to diverging opinions on matters such as racism, gender, sexuality, etc that we ourselves are becoming intolerant of different opinions (despite all of you trying to convince yourself that this isn't the case).



"Tolerance, but no tolerance for intolerance" - It's called the paradox of tolerance, and necessary. Absolute tolerance would be defenseless against intolerance, and it would lead to the disappearance of tolerance. Even further: Tolerance itself would be the evil, if it applies to intolerance.


----------



## ItWillDo

b1gm3 said:


> The difference here is the context though. If he came out with "Aww shucks, x-luthier done made a ugly geetar for mainstream plebians, sooooo sad   " it wouldn't be nearly as culturally inappropriate because people who listen to mainstream music don't have a history of being *beaten up and treated like criminals* just for listening to mainstream music.



Agreed, but it's also wrong to assume he supports the beatings and mistreatment of them. If he does however, he deserves the hate all the more.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

broj15 said:


> I'm not gonna quote everyone that took offense to what I said because that would take up too much room, but let me elaborate on what I meant when I said
> 
> 
> 
> Vic hating on homosexuals isn't going to stop people from being homosexuals and people giving shit to Vic for his opinion isn't going to change it. in fact it will probably just fortify it further: "look at all these gays and gay-sympathizers giving me shit. I sure am glad I hate those gays and gay-sympathizers". It would honestly be better to have just let the comment pass. He was surely doing it to garner attention for himself and use his position in the community to further his views and he's been successful in doing that. Wether people are talking bad about him doesn't matter, because here we all are talking about him. And just to further clarify, I don't agree with his position. Shit, I was hit on by a gay guy not too long ago and just laughed it off because, according to him, I gave off that vibe
> 
> 
> Edit: but as far as my side of the "privilege fence" is concerned, I'm sorry I was born a piece of CIS scum.



Raising awareness to something isn't something that should be swept under the rug. The guy made homophobic statements. If people didn't talk about it, then some people would never know. 

Seriously, I never would have known about this if people didn't speak up. I'm currently saving for a custom guitar. It's good to know that I should avoid this prick, since giving him money means helping give someone a good life when they actively try to make mine hell.

As for your edit, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being cis gendered, white, and straight. (Ierivileged). It's when you speak out as if you understand the struggle that's the issue. It's like a guy with two fully functioning legs telling a guy with one leg that a bike is easy to pedal. Seriously, just ignoring bigots isn't going to take a lot of the suit they do back. I suppose blacks should have just kept their mouths shut, drank from different fountains, and generally stayed being okay with being treated like sub humans right? If they adopted your "live and let live" ignore the bigotry views, blacks, women, and whatever other minority you care to mention would still be treated as garbage.


----------



## fps

ItWillDo said:


> Well honestly, as mentioned on page 1, this whole deal probably became a shitstorm mainly because sexuality seems to be a touchy subject. If Vik would have said "Man, I hate those mainstream-music listening plebeians", he probably would've gotten more support than criticism (altough the progressive music community is far more open on this subject than the 'mainstream' metal/rock community) despite also voicing hate for a group of people who just share love for a genre of music.
> 
> I don't support the guy at all and I really really don't give a shit about what/who people love (as long as they don't inflict damage upon eachother), I just feel like society in general has become so sensitive to diverging opinions on matters such as racism, gender, sexuality, etc that we ourselves are becoming intolerant of different opinions (despite all of you trying to convince yourself that this isn't the case).
> 
> And I understand all the disappointed reactions on the FB-post he made, but all these people actually going through the effort of actively boycotting his business for this is just a step too far in my opinion.



Lots of people make great custom guitars AND aren't scum. So I'll go with one of them


----------



## DaddleCecapitation

Wow! Just wow!

I guess today's the day Vik leaves through the proverbial door.

I personally hope that it hits him on the way out, he trips over and gets his dick stuck in a gay man's arse.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Well...I see he deleted his original post on FB and his "likes" on the brand's FB page have gone down. And yet Vik is still running his mouth on social media...

Is it over yet?...


----------



## Rook

inb4 Godwin


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Rook said:


> inb4 Godwin



Second. ^


----------



## chopeth85

I dont usually talk about it but this time ill make an exception. Im gay and i havent any problem to admit it. I love Vik guitars and i can " understand" that he has been educated in a country that refuses this reality. You can have your hard thoughts about this but you need to respect people, is the only way to go. I cant stand people that not only "hate" this reality but also try to show us that this behaviour is awuful...which is the main difference between me and straight? The way i work? The way i protect my family? The way i try to help people that im able to help? Ah , wait, i love another person of the same gender? The main difference between someone like Vik and me is that i dont judge people that his NATURAL way of being is different from me. I love vik guitars, i was thinking in getting a new custom guitar soon and ...all i can tell you is thank you vik, now that i refuse to get your guitar the choice wont be as complicated haha. This video is dedicated to people that want some laughs  life is two short to loose our time in this things  

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A57iSuX8OVU


----------



## DaddleCecapitation

Anal .... - You Own A Headless Guitar


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Wait a minute...I could've sworn Vik didn't like gay people? And didn't he just bash these guys?







Nolly dropping the bomb and pulling a very classy (and courteous to us) move.






And yet Vik still continues to run his mouth...






And, my little thing here again.


----------



## will_shred

Being intolerant of intolerance is not the same as being a bigot, I don't understand why that needs to be explained. People choose to be bigoted, however people do not choose to be homosexual. Vik has a right to be a bigot, however expressing in on a public form in the social climate was just stupid. If he made instruments that were targeted at a different crowd (say, if he made bluegrass instruments where the target crowd is usually more right wing), his comments might have gone totally unnoticed, but he couldn't have been ignorant to the fact that homophobia isn't exactly accepted in a scene who's core values include tolerance and acceptance of people as they are (the metal crowd in my experience is one of the friendliest, most accepting music scenes as far as the culture goes). The dude should know his market better than that.


----------



## 7 Dying Trees

Never heard of Vik guitars before this, and now never have the desire to know about them again.


----------



## ElRay

I'll start-off nice. Randal @ XKCD put it rather nicely:

If you get what's wrong with your comment now, then stop reading.


ItWillDo said:


> Not trying to stir shit here and in no sense do I condone his behavior (big Cynic/Masvidal fan and have nothing against gay people)


As said by pretty much every closet biggot/hypocrit out there.EDIT: At least two people took this as me calling ItWillDo a bigot. I just stated that the "I don't condone ... but ..." line is often used by bigots that don't want to admit they are. It ranks up there with "I'm not a racist, but [insert some racist comment]". I'll just add something I tell my kids, "If you preemptively deny something you've not even been accused of, it makes you look guilty." Again, I'm not accusing ItWillDo or the neg-repper, because only they know their own thoughts, words and deeds.​


ItWillDo said:


> but when/why does someone earn a public execution for voicing an opinion?


When it's hateful, bigoted crap that is damaging to society as a whole when it's passively condoned/tolerated.


ItWillDo said:


> Is it when it deviates from standard ethics? In my opinion, just like you can't force a sexual orientation on someone, you shouldn't really force an opinion on someone either.


Nobody's trying to change Vik's bigoted, hateful BELEIFS, they're just letting it be known that he's a bigot and allowing others the opportunity to make an informed choice. I don't use opinion there, because opinion implies that you have some data supporting your view (e.g. New York pizza is better than Chicago pizza), it's debatable, there's no truly objective measure and an opinion can be changed with sufficient evidence. Vik's homophobic nonsense is in the same league as Flat-Earthers, Moon Landing Deniers, Anti-Vaxers, Creationists, etc. -- It's a BELEIF that there is no logical support for, plenty of counter-evidence against and held so tightly that no amount of evidence will change their minds.


ItWillDo said:


> If the man has problems with gay people, it's obviously his problem and now you know who to avoid.


Yes, that's the whole point.


ItWillDo said:


> But this whole internet-crusade thing nowadays, can't say I'm a big fan.


This sentence conflicts with the previous one. Are you saying that Vik is free to express his BELIEFS, yet people that rightfully feel Vik's a bigot aren't free to express themselves? Your statement implies that Vik has free reign to spew his nonsensical BELIEFS and the non-bigots have limits placed on their speech -- They're allowed to complain, but only "so much". What's your objective standard for an acceptable level of discourse before it turns into a "crusade"?

The ignorant are entitled to their BELIEFS; however, Free Speech doesn't protect them from the repercussions of spewing their hateful, bigoted, hypocritical, conflicted by reality nonsense. And the nonsense especially doesn't get a pass just because it's some form of modern mythology (aka religion).

Nonsense from the anti-Vaxers, anti-Anthropogenic-Climate-Change, ID/Creationists and anti-LGBT nuts needs to be squashed and publicly condemned. Otherwise it adds complicit support and we get crap like we have here in the U.S.: outbreaks of diseases that were practically eliminated, people that BELIEVE Anthropogenic-Climate-Change isn't happening, people that arrogantly BELIEVE ID/Creationism because "The Theory of Evolution due to Natural Selection" seems stupid from their position of ignorance and people legislating hate/discrimination/bigotry. *Nonsense like this needs to be squashed, because if it isn't, there will be fence sitters that start to BELIEVE and the numbers of these ignorant bigots will increase*.



Ray


----------



## Edika

The guys that have facebook should see the comments left on the various posts left by people on Vik guitars FB page. He'll have a hard time banning and deleting all these comments now hahaha!


----------



## crg123

broj15 said:


> It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of homophobes and no ok to be intolerant of homosexuals when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



WAT? So in your mind this would be fine?



> It just kills me that people think it's okay to be intolerant of *racists* and not ok to be intolerant of *black people* when they're both just 2 sides of the same intolerant coin.



^ Its the same shit dude. Switch out the words and see how dumb that sounds.

edit: 




I can't believe that he really said that. Disgusting.


----------



## ElRay

ItWillDo said:


> ... all these people actually going through the effort of actively boycotting his business for this is just a step too far in my opinion.



So, in your opinion, Vik's bigoted nonsense is protected speech, Vik is protected from the consequences of offending people and those that find his nonsense distasteful are restricted from pointing this out and choosing to purchase their guitars elsewhere?


----------



## Tyler

I wouldnt be surprised if he tries to pull out of it saying his account was hacked and never said it


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

STRAIGHT AGAINST HATE

2014


----------



## StevenC

Astral EXR Systems changed their cover photo on Facebook, just now:


----------



## stevexc

ItWillDo said:


> Well honestly, as mentioned on page 1, this whole deal probably became a shitstorm mainly because sexuality seems to be a touchy subject. If Vik would have said "Man, I hate those mainstream-music listening plebeians", he probably would've gotten more support than criticism (altough the progressive music community is far more open on this subject than the 'mainstream' metal/rock community) despite also voicing hate for a group of people who just share love for a genre of music.
> 
> I don't support the guy at all and I really really don't give a shit about what/who people love (as long as they don't inflict damage upon eachother), I just feel like society in general has become so sensitive to diverging opinions on matters such as racism, gender, sexuality, etc that we ourselves are becoming intolerant of different opinions (despite all of you trying to convince yourself that this isn't the case).
> 
> And I understand all the disappointed reactions on the FB-post he made, but all these people actually going through the effort of actively boycotting his business for this is just a step too far in my opinion.



Your opinion is flat-out wrong.

Hatred of ANY group of people - whether due to nationality, skin color, sexuality, political leanings, musical taste - is NOT a "divergence of opinions". It is HATRED. It is one of the major things that is wrong with the world today. Clearly you're too young to remember it, but there's no way you haven't heard about the civil rights movement in the US in the 60s - you can't honestly tell me that the world would be a better place if we had allowed people to go on segregating black people and treating them as second class citizens because their "opinions diverged". 

It is the exact same thing with gay rights right now.


There is never any reason to support intolerance, except to those who are intolerant of others. Twist that all you want, I don't care, you know exactly what I mean. 

If you can find any justification to allow someone to continue to spout hatred towards any group then you are a despicable, disgusting human being.


----------



## RustInPeace

I think SSO should write a book called "How to not F up your luthier business - For Dummies!"


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

And it would be one chapter entitled "Common Sense and You"

Vik gives approximately zero f4cks. He probably sees himself as a bad ass.


----------



## stevexc

We've got ample case studies to say the least - and expert opinions! Also "armchair expert" opinions


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I'd like to take a moment to share my appreciation for this community. I'm relatively new here, but I have to say that the vast majority of you guys are super supportive of things that mean a lot to me. I spent a great deal of my life being treated as second tier garbage, and it's insanely cool that a community devoted to one of the most important parts of my life, that is to say music, that is on my side. 

Just felt I should put that out there.


----------



## UnderTheSign

Chokey Chicken said:


> I'd like to take a moment to share my appreciation for this community. I'm relatively new here, but I have to say that the vast majority of you guys are super supportive of things that mean a lot to me. I spent a great deal of my life being treated as second tier garbage, and it's insanely cool that a community devoted to one of the most important parts of my life, that is to say music, that is on my side.
> 
> Just felt I should put that out there.


Yeah, after some previous things that annoyed me, my faith in SSO is now definitely restored 

I also like how everyone that (tries to) defend(s) Vik gets told. Screw homophobia.


----------



## stevexc

People here are generally good people. This is by far one of the most pleasant online communities I've been a part of.


----------



## VigilSerus

Chokey Chicken said:


> I'd like to take a moment to share my appreciation for this community. I'm relatively new here, but I have to say that the vast majority of you guys are super supportive of things that mean a lot to me. I spent a great deal of my life being treated as second tier garbage, and it's insanely cool that a community devoted to one of the most important parts of my life, that is to say music, that is on my side.
> 
> Just felt I should put that out there.



I have noticed this too. In contrast to other forums/communities I frequent very often, this community is a very mature and thoughtful bunch (probably because most of you are over 18, but all the better).


----------



## Paul McAleer

I just wanted to leave a fabulous hitler here~*


----------



## rapterr15

If I choose to speak out against obese people who take their shirts off at the beach because I find it extremely unsightly, that doesn't mean I hate that person. I am merely made uncomfortable by one aspect of that person. Someone growing up in a Puritan society such as parts of America (not that Vik did), may be against homosexuality not because they hate those people, but because they are made uncomfortable by that aspect of that person because of the beliefs ingrained in their minds since childhood. It can be hard to break away from the beliefs we grew up with sometimes. Just cause I don't like looking at obese people, doesn't mean I hate them. With Vik's subsequent comments, he did prove to be a rather hateful bastard, but I digress. Forgive me if this point I'm making is pointless and adds nothing to the conversation


----------



## ItWillDo

ElRay said:


> As said by pretty much every closet biggot/hypocrit out there.


Ok cool, so not immediately throwing a tantrum about a diverging opinion makes me a bigot. I'll keep that in mind and I'll fly into a similar rage whenever someone presents me something I don't agree with and I'll call them a bigot as well. Surely that will make my point come across a lot better than actually engaging in a sensible discussion. 



ElRay said:


> When it's hateful, bigoted crap that is damaging to society as a whole when it's passively condoned/tolerated.


Well that's pretty much where I wanted to go and have a civilized discussion with people who are actually able to remain calm about the situation and talk about this in a rational way. Our society condemns people for discriminating homosexuals, and some (such as many religious) societies condemn people who promote homosexuality. How are you going to tell which one can be assumed to be the correct one considering both societies agree upon an idea standing on the far ends of the spectrum? Who knows, if you were born and conditioned in a Muslim society, you might've been preaching the exact opposite of what you're doing right now and be just as convinced of your idea being &#8220;the right one&#8221;.



ElRay said:


> Nobody's trying to change Vik's bigoted, hateful BELEIFS, they're just letting it be known that he's a bigot and allowing others the opportunity to make an informed choice. I don't use opinion there, because opinion implies that you have some data supporting your view (e.g. New York pizza is better than Chicago pizza), it's debatable, there's no truly objective measure and an opinion can be changed with sufficient evidence. Vik's homophobic nonsense is in the same league as Flat-Earthers, Moon Landing Deniers, Anti-Vaxers, Creationists, etc. -- It's a BELEIF that there is no logical support for, plenty of counter-evidence against and held so tightly that no amount of evidence will change their minds.


Well I kind of disagree here. Most people I&#8217;ve talked to who are against homosexuality say they disagree because it&#8217;s unnatural in the sense that our most primal desires purely existed to promote procreation to ensure the continuation and existence of mankind. It&#8217;s only through our evolutionary progress in social matters that we&#8217;ve become tolerant of ideas diverging from these primal senses. So they do have point, but it&#8217;s your situation and societal conditioning that will decide your tolerance for it and make you choose a side.



ElRay said:


> Yes, that's the whole point.This sentence conflicts with the previous one. Are you saying that Vik is free to express his BELIEFS, yet people that rightfully feel Vik's a bigot aren't free to express themselves? Your statement implies that Vik has free reign to spew his nonsensical BELIEFS and the non-bigots have limits placed on their speech -- They're allowed to complain, but only "so much". What's your objective standard for an acceptable level of discourse before it turns into a "crusade"?


You&#8217;re twisting my words. I&#8217;ve mentioned that I feel both parties should be able to express their opinions on the matter as long as they don&#8217;t launch any personal attacks on each other. Vik clearly expressed he&#8217;s not ok with the concept of homosexuality and people are more than in their right to say they disagree and are completely fine with homosexuality. What&#8217;s happening now though, is people launching personal attacks and campaigns against him as an individual, calling him names and even wishing death and other things upon him. This would&#8217;ve been the same as if Vik would&#8217;ve actually attacked Masvidal personally instead of just referencing him in regards to the context.



ElRay said:


> The ignorant are entitled to their BELIEFS; however, Free Speech doesn't protect them from the repercussions of spewing their hateful, bigoted, hypocritical, conflicted by reality nonsense. And the nonsense especially doesn't get a pass just because it's some form of modern mythology (aka religion).


I hope you do realize that you&#8217;re the one being ignorant here right? You are all worked up because someone doesn&#8217;t side with your beliefs but on the other hand you&#8217;re completely fine with disrespecting millions of religious people just because you don&#8217;t agree with theirs. I&#8217;m not religious either but I still do respect their beliefs/opinions and realize there&#8217;s more to it than &#8220;hateful, bigoted, hypocritical, conflicted by reality nonsense&#8221;.



ElRay said:


> Nonsense from the anti-Vaxers, anti-Anthropogenic-Climate-Change, ID/Creationists and anti-LGBT nuts needs to be squashed and publicly condemned. Otherwise it adds complicit support and we get crap like we have here in the U.S.: outbreaks of diseases that were practically eliminated, people that BELIEVE Anthropogenic-Climate-Change isn't happening, people that arrogantly BELIEVE ID/Creationism because "The Theory of Evolution due to Natural Selection" seems stupid from their position of ignorance and people legislating hate/discrimination/bigotry. *Nonsense like this needs to be squashed, because if it isn't, there will be fence sitters that start to BELIEVE and the numbers of these ignorant bigots will increase*.


I don&#8217;t understand how this supports what you&#8217;ve previously said. &#8216;The ignorant&#8217; are entitled to their beliefs but on the other hand it needs to be squashed? In my opinion people should be free to believe and if they don&#8217;t want to accept something, they shouldn&#8217;t be forced to do so. If someone finds happiness in Creationism, best of luck to him. But this doesn&#8217;t give him free game to force this idea upon others. You&#8217;re happy with being atheist/agnostic, good for you. But don&#8217;t be &#8216;that guy&#8217; and force your beliefs upon religious people and call them ignoramuses/bigots/cretins/etc. while bathing in some self-imposed sense of superiority.




stevexc said:


> Your opinion is flat-out wrong.
> 
> Hatred of ANY group of people - whether due to nationality, skin color, sexuality, political leanings, musical taste - is NOT a "divergence of opinions". It is HATRED. It is one of the major things that is wrong with the world today. Clearly you're too young to remember it, but there's no way you haven't heard about the civil rights movement in the US in the 60s - you can't honestly tell me that the world would be a better place if we had allowed people to go on segregating black people and treating them as second class citizens because their "opinions diverged".
> 
> It is the exact same thing with gay rights right now.
> 
> 
> There is never any reason to support intolerance, except to those who are intolerant of others. Twist that all you want, I don't care, you know exactly what I mean.
> 
> If you can find any justification to allow someone to continue to spout hatred towards any group then you are a despicable, disgusting human being.


I've never said I'm ok with hating on people. Not supporting homosexuality or considering it unnatural is different from actually full-blown hating them in the sense that you want to assault them. 

I'm a Serbian-born resident of Belgium and I was about 11 when the NATO bombings of Belgrade took place and lots of people expressed their hate for my people considering us warmongering savages and projecting this on me as well, despite me having no link to these events whatsoever aside from it being my birthplace. And I understood that there were people that didn't agree with the whole civil war ordeal there and I appreciated them sharing their opinion on the matter, but I never agreed with the behavior some showed in their hate for whichever side of the war. It's indeed hate that causes war, but it's the discussion of differences that leads to a resolution. If all people were able to discuss their differences in a calm, rational fashion; we would have come a lot further as human beings.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Yeah, but just because you don't like something doesn't mean everyone has to cater to what you deem appealing. Obese folks have every right to go shirtless, provided it's within the law. Which sucks for us females since it's considered indecent, not that I'd personally be comfortable going shirtless.


----------



## Orandje

F**k homophobia from behind, man. 
Astral EXR Systems just hitted it out of the park, they should rename their brand in "Anal EXR Systems" for this day, I would just instantly love them forever.


----------



## StevenC

Vik's stupidity and lack of professionalism is "Endlessly Bountiful"...

Woo Cynic!


----------



## VigilSerus

StevenC said:


> Vik's stupidity and lack of professionalism is "Endlessly Bountiful"...
> 
> Woo Cynic!



That's the real root of all this hubbub. It's Vik's unprofessionalism. You _cant _ bring this kind of stuff into business or this shit will happen lol. Like I said, if he kept it to his personal FB and maybe minimized his insinuation a little, I wouldn't have cared at all.


----------



## hairychris

Ah man. Vik delivers... again... with a non-pology on his personal page:



> There's a big difference between "don't like" and "hate". I don't hate gay people, pretty much as I don't hate anything. Hatred is a sick feeling and never led to anything good.
> .... whatever you like, it's none of my business. But don't expect me to like or sympathize your choice just because you are "different". I may be tolerant to you and that's it.



With luck this'll be a salutary lesson. However, it's also a reminder that being visibly homophobic can be socially acceptable. Belarus doesn't seem to be a great place to be gay, fwiw.

LGBT rights in Belarus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm another person who wonders how ViK USA will go now? Great advertising. Very good.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Which is the correct point of view? How about the one that causes less harm to yourself and others? Gays aren't trying to change anything that straight people do, they're just trying to be allowed the same freedoms. Therefore, homophobes, religious or otherwise, are in the wrong.


----------



## no_dice

ShadowsfeaR said:


> That's the real root of all this hubbub. It's Vik's unprofessionalism. You _cant _ bring this kind of stuff into business or this shit will happen lol. Like I said, if he kept it to his personal FB and maybe minimized his insinuation a little, I wouldn't have cared at all.



It looks like it was on his personal fb page, though. Either way, when you're a public figure of any magnitude, you have to tread lightly when it comes to your personal views, especially about hot button issues.

I'd be lying if I said I had no prejudices, but I keep them to myself. Only those closest to me are even aware of them, and I would never purposefully try to make someone feel bad or like less of a person because I may not agree with something they do.


----------



## stevexc

no_dice said:


> It looks like it was on his personal fb page, though. Either way, when you're a public figure of any magnitude, you have to tread lightly when it comes to your personal views, especially about hot button issues.
> 
> I'd be lying if I said I had no prejudices, but I keep them to myself. Only those closest to me are even aware of them, and I would never purposefully try to make someone feel bad or like less of a person because I may not agree with something they do.



It moved to his official one, too.

Either way, Facebook - or any other public space - is entirely an inappropriate place for it. Nobody would have an issue with it if his thoughts never left his head, but as soon as he opened his mouth where everyone could hear it he proclaimed that he is a bigot.


----------



## asher

no_dice said:


> It looks like it was on his personal fb page, though. Either way, when you're a public figure of any magnitude, you have to tread lightly when it comes to your personal views, especially about hot button issues.
> 
> I'd be lying if I said I had no prejudices, but I keep them to myself. Only those closest to me are even aware of them, and I would never purposefully try to make someone feel bad or like less of a person because I may not agree with something they do.



It started there but it got pulled over to his official page, where he continued responding.


----------



## no_dice

My mistake, I didn't see that part.


----------



## jerm

can't wait to see his business fail.


----------



## VigilSerus

Wings of Obsidian said:


> And yet Vik still continues to run his mouth...









This is what was really just the most despicable thing, and what made me lose all respect for him. Note that this is in the Vik Page itself.


----------



## Watty

This just in, a Belarusian man was seen breaking ground in China today....


----------



## StevenC

Misha has things to say:


----------



## BlackMastodon

I wonder what leonardo7 has to say about this...


----------



## The Spanish Inquisition

Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.

EDIT: by now I'm well informed and I agree with most here now. Sorry for wasting your time.


----------



## -One-

I think the most disgusting part of this whole situation is what he said to Misha, after Misha paid for the complete balance of the guitar, and ViK had already not met the agreed deadline:



Bulb said:


> I paid for the balance of the guitar in full in January with the promise that the guitar would be ready by NAMM. It wasnt. When I asked for an update as to when my guitar would be sent out earlier today, Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints. I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar.


----------



## Promit

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.


Are they, though?
"Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints."
That's not an idle opinion anymore.


----------



## Edika

I am not sure how I feel about Misha's post even though he was quite honest with the situation. 
Would he have taken the guitar if Vik didn't make such absurd demands? And if he did would he have sticked to the original deal of getting a discounted guitar for promotion and exposure?
I am not trying to be a dick and discredit what Misha did but for me morals and ethics mean cancelling the order anyway and not being backed to it by ridiculous demands that would destroy his reputation. 
I don't know maybe I'm reading too much into it and all this drama is getting to me.

EDIT: Again I feel like I might be a bit harsh on Misha since he didn't disclose information.


----------



## DeathClown

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.



Homophobia effects homosexuals in a negative way. That's why it's so bad. You're allowed to have hateful opinions, but you shouldn't share this stupid opinions if they can negatively impact peoples lives. Get it?


----------



## Nats

damn, 2 years for an order for someone that's supposed to promote your guitars? Shit's crazy yo.


----------



## The Spanish Inquisition

Promit said:


> Are they, though?
> "Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints."
> That's not an idle opinion anymore.



I did not see that, so I must agree a little bit then. But I still kind of think we're blowing this way out of proportion.


----------



## Joose

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.



I suggest reading through this thread to educate yourself.


----------



## stevexc

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.



There is not an ounce of overreaction here. Publicly insulting people because of their sexuality is FAR beyond "having an opinion". If he was just "some other guy having an opinion" none of us would have heard it - but as soon as he spoke up about his opinion, he invited the criticism and consequences.

There is no place in the world for that kind of behaviour. We all have our own biases, but those of us that are of sound mind don't go airing them. You have the right to think what you want about gay people, but the minute you start telling other people that they should listen to you you've lost any and all respect.


----------



## stevexc

Edika said:


> I am not sure how I feel about Misha's post even though he was quite honest with the situation.
> Would he have taken the guitar if Vik didn't make such absurd demands? And if he did would he have sticked to the original deal of getting a discounted guitar for promotion and exposure?
> I am not trying to be a dick and discredit what Misha did but for me morals and ethics mean cancelling the order anyway and not being backed to it by ridiculous demands that would destroy his reputation.
> I don't know maybe I'm reading too much into it and all this drama is getting to me.
> 
> EDIT: Again I feel like I might be a bit harsh on Misha since he didn't disclose information.



I think you may be reading too deeply into it - it's impossible to say, especially after the fact, what Misha would have done. I expect that he would have rejected it anyways, given that Nolly's also reneged on his deal with Vik. It made more sense for his post to include that little nugget, though.


----------



## The Spanish Inquisition

stevexc said:


> There is not an ounce of overreaction here. Publicly insulting people because of their sexuality is FAR beyond "having an opinion". If he was just "some other guy having an opinion" none of us would have heard it - but as soon as he spoke up about his opinion, he invited the criticism and consequences.
> 
> There is no place in the world for that kind of behaviour. We all have our own biases, but those of us that are of sound mind don't go airing them. You have the right to think what you want about gay people, but the minute you start telling other people that they should listen to you you've lost any and all respect.



I agree with you on that. And the things he said about it is just ridiculous. He just handles things stupidly. All the time. Any time. I wasn't really well informed. And now I am.


----------



## UnderTheSign

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.


I support free speech, I do not support intolerance towards people based on their sexuality, gender, race and anything else they have no control of. You can CHOOSE not to be a racist or homophone, you can't choose your sexuality. Read the previous pages and you'll see this explained very clearly.

Facebook and metalsucks are full of "oh boy here comes the PC brigade" comments but frankly, I don't give a rats ass about being PC. I'm openly intolerant towards whoever I think is being an asshole (mostly based on their views on homosexuals, immigrants/people of colour and women) and I don't see how caring for the rights of minorities etc is "white knighting". It's not about MY respect, it's about THEIR respect, and the respect/rights they don't get.

The only reason I and many others "overreact" is because a lot of other people try to act like it doesn't matter and homophobia is somehow acceptable.

_edit: oops, noticed I'm not the first to reply to this... you guys are fast! _


----------



## Nats

It's not an overreaction because he sounds like a shitty human being in general. Take your hard earned cash elsewhere and reduce him to using his wood working skills to fashion phalli that he can stick in his own butt.


----------



## teamSKDM

Guys, viks homophobia is not just an opinion. He is putting that opinion into action. He himself is claiming that he will give homosexuals and supporters unequal treatment. That is wrong and is no justification for it.


----------



## hikizume976

I say less talk more rock baby! Life is way too short and full of way too many important issues to fret () about someone's ignorant opinion for more than 20 secs.


----------



## hairychris

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.



Vik comes from a culture where "opinions" about LBGT people have pervasive and negative effects.

He's freely expressing his feelings on a global website in front of his customer base.

The more accepting of said global audience are making _their_ feelings known.

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequences. If I see someone who I have commercial relationship with being a dick, I can take my trade elsewhere.

Simple.


----------



## The Spanish Inquisition

Like I said: I wasn't well informed. I am now.


----------



## stevexc

hikizume976 said:


> I say less talk more rock baby! Life is way too short and full of way too many important issues to fret () about someone's ignorant opinion for more than 20 secs.



On the flipside, would you give thousands of dollars to a homophobe with hopes that he might make you a guitar one day?

It's not like this is some random person off the street. He's brought his business into this.

Life's too short, I agree... but I feel life's too short to let someone ruin it for anyone else. And this is one of those important issues.


----------



## crg123

I think what a lot of the people who are saying "oh he has a right to his opinion" aren't thinking about one major thing. 

Imagine being someone who loves his brand, dreaming of getting his one of his finely crafted instruments one day or even to just play one and then having him target you as a person. Imagine the devastation and the feeling of betrayal. We're not talking about a preference of music choice, food, or something subjective here. We're talking about the demeaning of real people, making them feel less than others.

That is why there's an outrage.


----------



## UnderTheSign

teamSKDM said:


> Guys, viks homophobia is not just an opinion. He is putting that opinion into action. He himself is claiming that he will give homosexuals and supporters unequal treatment. That is wrong and is no justification for it.


I think the comment on "double the price" was a joke although a very shitty one but his response to Misha showed how serious he was about his ignorance.

On the upside, this is a good way of showing us which luthiers to avoid, second commenter here is Vahn Guitars:


----------



## 3trv5u

What an idiot  Congrats on f...cking up your buisness bro
I can even understand that one does not like gay people (for whatever reason) but posting it on his official facebook where customers and possible customers can see this... can't really decide if it's funny or sad

ps. let's spam his email with gay porn


----------



## asher

Let's not and say we didn't.


----------



## Shimme

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Come on guys, he's just some other guy having an opinion. Why is that so bad? Don't get me wrong, I support gay-rights and all that jazz, but I also support opinions. He said it a bit stupidly, but he's good at putting things stupidly. And I also dislike how everyone immediately jumps on the white knight wagon and saying they are disgusted of Vik and gaining their extra bit of "respect". People are overreacting in my honest opinion.



I'm coming into this conversation late, but from this page alone we can know that Vik is willing to

- Steal from, and lie to you if you don't support his beliefs

- Charge you more if you are homosexual (this is *textbook* discrimination. Switch homosexual with black or female and nobody would defend this)

So in about 3 mintues I've moved from "that's the guy who makes those nice guitars" to "that's the s...bag who makes those nice guitars."

-goes off to read the entire thread-


----------



## QuambaFu

Anyone selling their Vik guitars yet... for cheap??


----------



## Promit

Shimme said:


> - Charge you more if you are homosexual (this is *textbook* discrimination. Switch homosexual with black or female and nobody would defend this)


Guaranteed he tries to pass this off as a lame joke. Which it may have been, actually, but that doesn't excuse it.


----------



## stevexc

Shimme said:


> - Charge you more if you are homosexual (this is *textbook* discrimination. Switch homosexual with black or female and nobody would defend this)



I don't think that was anything more than a joke, but that doesn't make it any better. Your point still holds, IMO.

EDIT: Ninja'd


----------



## SkullCrusher

This is unbelievable.

Vik Hitler is more fitting?


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

UnderTheSign said:


> On the upside, this is a good way of showing us which luthiers to avoid, second commenter here is Vahn Guitars:



So...avoid Vahn Guitars too? (Who the heck is "Vahn Guitars" and why have I never heard of him?)


----------



## StevenC

SkullCrusher said:


> This is unbelievable.
> 
> Vik Hitler is more fitting?



Rook, it happened!


----------



## Spaceman_Spiff

I can't wait until a few years from now when gay marriage is legal almost everywhere and dumbasses like Vik will probably scramble to get laws changed and the collective population can just ignore them.


----------



## Paul McAleer

Spaceman_Spiff said:


> I can't wait until a few years from now when gay marriage is legal almost everywhere and dumbasses like Vik will probably scramble to get laws changed and the collective population can just ignore them.



Plot twist, Vik comes out in 2016.


----------



## stevexc

Paul McAleer said:


> Plot twist, Vik comes out in 2016.



Wasn't there some study done finding a high rate of homosexuality amongst vocal homophobes? Just saying, not saying...


----------



## mnemonic

StevenC said:


> Misha has things to say:





teh blub said:


> I paid for the balance of the guitar in full in January with the promise that the guitar would be ready by NAMM. It wasnt. When I asked for an update as to when my guitar would be sent out earlier today, *Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints.* I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar.



This is interesting, I wonder what was said.

Everything up to this point I saw as shitty jokes from a homophobic guy who thought more people shared his opinion. What bulb said makes me think he may have an agenda.


----------



## max3000

So this just happened bulb &#8212; Vik Guitars


----------



## RustInPeace

The ultimate form of karma, is when people like this have children that turn out to be LGBT


----------



## Shimme

Promit said:


> Guaranteed he tries to pass this off as a lame joke. Which it may have been, actually, but that doesn't excuse it.



Yeah and I get that it was a "joke", but I also am fairly confident that he would do it if he thought he could - check his liking the "Can I get a discount for being straight".

So, he likes the thought of heterosexuals getting a better price on his products than homosexuals, but doesn't want to actually charge a lower price - instead he'd love to raise prices for the LGBT community, but probably can't/won't because the market has decided that his beliefs aren't acceptable.

Throw in his reaction to people ripping off his build, compare it with Suhr rip off, and that I never heard about the builds he cancelled (people were complaining about wait times) actually getting their money back and I think it's safe to add unbelievable, unrepentant greed to the list of reasons not to like Vik as a business and as a person.


----------



## poopyalligator

RustInPeace said:


> The ultimate form of karma, is when people like this have children that turn out to be LGBT



It's true. Look at people like Dick Cheney lol


----------



## Trainwreck1446

Hopefully people start selling their Vik's soon :O Been wanting a Duality for cheap.


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

RustInPeace said:


> The ultimate form of karma, is when people like this have children that turn out to be LGBT



It's sad how right your comment is. Not in a karma punishment sense, but the fact that they can't empathize with others until they themselves are forced to experience the normality of an LGBT person through a family member. I say forced because given the choice they wouldn't even try.

This is Very apparent in politics: Sad that it takes their own children coming out for them to leave their stance. Do they feel remorse for all the time spent fighting the rights of their children before they knew?

Gay marriage: 10 who switched sides - Strange Bedfellows &#8212; Politics News



Trainwreck1446 said:


> Hopefully people start selling their Vik's soon :O Been wanting a Duality for cheap.



Sadly the prices keep going up AND now that the business is potentially going under you may never see another vik produced, therefore increasing the cost of used tenfold. That Keith Merrow Sig will soon be up for $10 K  "You'll never get another guitar like this again!" sale tactic.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

UPDATE:

Vik just made it so that no one can post on the Vik Guitars page. He also made his profile private so no one can see or post on his stuff. 
But.........he also deleted everything and posted again.


----------



## max3000

It's funny that people like Vik don't realize that coming out as anti LGBT, these days, is almost as bad as saying "you know, I don't really like them blacks/jews/whatever"

I mean, look at what happened to Mozilla's CEO. Or that sports manager dude recently.


----------



## StevenC

Please stop, Vik.


----------



## Rook

Well what do you do when you stick your hand in the fire and get burned

You pull it back out


----------



## StevenC

Rook said:


> Well what do you do when you stick your hand in the fire and get burned
> 
> You pull it back out



What do you do when people buy guitars from you?

Cancel there order and steal their money.


----------



## RV350ALSCYTHE

max3000 said:


> It's funny that people like Vik don't realize that coming out as anti LGBT, these days, is almost as bad as saying "you know, I don't really like them blacks/jews/whatever"
> 
> I mean, look at what happened to Mozilla's CEO. Or that sports manager dude recently.










We need a few Vik memes in line with these Sterling ones.


----------



## crg123

StevenC said:


> Please stop, Vik.



Pause...... Just noticed you have facebook in pirate mode. 

 LOL sorry. back OT.


----------



## Paul McAleer

stevexc said:


> Wasn't there some study done finding a high rate of homosexuality amongst vocal homophobes? Just saying, not saying...



It's legitimate I think, the irony of the homophobic kids during my high-school years coming out years after graduating. It's great!



max3000 said:


> So this just happened bulb  Vik Guitars


 
So basically Vik has gone full hitler. (And not the fabulous one)


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

I've officially been banned from the Vik Guitars page and blocked by Vik on his personal profile.

Success?...


----------



## Paul McAleer

Wings of Obsidian said:


> I've officially been banned from the Vik Guitars page and blocked by Vik on his personal profile.
> 
> Success?...



You're not straight enough apparently!


----------



## SkullCrusher

Wings of Obsidian said:


> I've officially been banned from the Vik Guitars page and blocked by Vik on his personal profile.
> 
> Success?...


----------



## Convictional

crg123 said:


> Pause...... Just noticed you have facebook in pirate mode.
> 
> LOL sorry. back OT.



I noticed that too 

I wonder how many homosexuals have purchased guitars from Vik without him knowing? That's a metric I'd like to see. 



Hollowway said:


> Most people may be tolerant of both gays and hamburgers, but when was the last time someone who likes hamburgers was beat up or killed for liking them?



I just want to point out that something like this would totally happen in Florida. 

Example:
Man beaten to death with baseball bat; 
failed to slice barbecue to guest's liking


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Paul McAleer said:


> You're not straight enough apparently!


----------



## StevenC

Vik has changed his cover photo on Facebook away from him with Javier and Tosin to a picture of a fretboard and inlay.

I wonder if he was asked to change it.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Am I understanding Misha correctly? Did he really say Vik was holding his guitar hostage until Misha voiced a public disproval of gays? 

Holy shit dude, this guy is bonkers. I somehow doubt it's the end of his business, but it fills me with absolute joy to see two of my favorite musicians support something that means so much to me. The fact that Misha cancelled an order so as not to compromise his morals makes me love him all the more. I don't really know what else to say other than I have a huge amount of respect for both Nolly and Misha.


----------



## TimSE

Expecting him to delete the thread, which he now has, I took a screenshot of my response to him and some tarded bitch






I'd rather keep it with all the other bullshit from that bellend.


----------



## Mehnike

Sad to see it had to come to this. Awesome looking work he does, but way to ruin his successes. I mean he was doing so well! But maybe this is the publicity he always dreamed of.


----------



## stevexc

Mehnike said:


> Sad to see it had to come to this. Awesome looking work he does, but way to ruin his successes. I mean he was doing so well!



He was?


----------



## Mehnike

stevexc said:


> He was?


Was he?


----------



## mnemonic

Chokey Chicken said:


> Am I understanding Misha correctly? Did he really say Vik was holding his guitar hostage until Misha voiced a public disproval of gays?
> 
> Holy shit dude, this guy is bonkers. I somehow doubt it's the end of his business, but it fills me with absolute joy to see two of my favorite musicians support something that means so much to me. The fact that Misha cancelled an order so as not to compromise his morals makes me love him all the more. I don't really know what else to say other than I have a huge amount of respect for both Nolly and Misha.



I've been wondering what that comment was about, my guess is Vik wanted Bulb to defend his comments and say its not a big deal to try to downplay it, and if he didn't, Vik wouldn't be sending him a guitar (?)

Who knows though, thats just speculation on my part, we won't know what Vik and Bulb discussed unless Bulb posts his emails, which I don't think he would do.


----------



## stevexc

Mehnike said:


> Was he?



From the sounds of things there were MAJOR issues getting guitars out in any sort of timely fashion and a lot of deception. This is far from his first issue. Anyone taking this as a WARNING sign is in trouble - there have been many of those already.


----------



## canuck brian

StevenC said:


> What do you do when people buy guitars from you?
> 
> Cancel there order and steal their money.



You forgot to add "Buy a brand new BMW with the money I bilked from customers paying huge deposits on guitars i had no intention of building."


----------



## StevenC

This is interesting and hilarious!


----------



## Chokey Chicken

mnemonic said:


> I've been wondering what that comment was about, my guess is Vik wanted Bulb to defend his comments and say its not a big deal to try to downplay it, and if he didn't, Vik wouldn't be sending him a guitar (?)
> 
> Who knows though, thats just speculation on my part, we won't know what Vik and Bulb discussed unless Bulb posts his emails, which I don't think he would do.



Yeah, I'm not too worried about it. Regardless of how it translates, it's pretty mental. I hope Misha gets his cash back, as promised. This whole ordeal is a little surreal. I've never seen somebody act so unprofessional, and keep at it, for so long. 

Usually somebody drops an N bomb on TV, or spits homophobic nonsense and apologizes a few hours later, and then pretending it never happened. Unless they defend it with religion, which is equally stupid since their religion tells them not to judge others, that's gods job. Anyway, this guy isn't backing down, and I don't think he will. It's just strange to see someone willingly hurt their own business like this.


----------



## Mehnike

stevexc said:


> From the sounds of things there were MAJOR issues getting guitars out in any sort of timely fashion and a lot of deception. This is far from his first issue. Anyone taking this as a WARNING sign is in trouble - there have been many of those already.


I guess I should have rephrased success into insanely cool looking work. He seems to me as very accomplished when it comes to working with wood and guitars.

It seems luthiers again and again overestimate their abilities at a creating proper business model. 

And another point, if you are going to have a company page on social media, the founder/owner best not have a personal page. Fans are always watching. All it takes is that one post to rub the wrong way...


----------



## ChrisH

Hey guys,

I posted this in the ViK megathread in the Dealers portion but I figured I should post this here as well. 

For those that don't know me (it's ok, I'm not important or famous anyways haha) but my name is Chris and I work for Carvin Guitars in San Diego. I work directly for Jeff Kiesel and he wanted me to post this. We have been getting a lot of people asking us if we were going to be the company doing ViK USA and especially now with this mess we want to set the record straight. I've been following this thread since about NAMM and I believe a customer of mine from Los Angeles posted something a while back about him speaking with Jeff about the us doing the USA line.

We've been asked before and I have no idea why Vik decided to tell some people (and I'm talking about you folks who have been hinting at who the USA company was) that it was going to be us. We never agreed to anything and told him no on several occasions.

This is an official statement from Jeff Kiesel.



> I am always getting asked to make instruments for other manufactures.
> Earlier this year (in March) I decided for 2014 I was going to focus my efforts entirely to Carvin and into new designs and building up the Brand. So in March I told several guitar companies (one was Vik Guitars) I was going to pass on building their brand guitars in 2014. I will not say I will never build other brand guitars for companies but I can say this *"I will never build guitars for Vik Kuletski"* in fact here is the message I recently sent Vik *"Vik, wanted to let you know. I am not open to talking further about making your guitars now or at any point. I am not interested in the opportunity and I will not make products for you"*
> 
> Respectfully,
> Jeff Kiesel
> www.facebook.com/officialjeffkiesel



So hope that clears things up.

Thanks guys!


----------



## crg123

^


----------



## RustInPeace

Offtopic- Carvin should build RAN


----------



## Tommy Deaks

ChrisH said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I posted this in the ViK megathread in the Dealers portion but I figured I should post this here as well.
> 
> For those that don't know me (it's ok, I'm not important or famous anyways haha) but my name is Chris and I work for Carvin Guitars in San Diego. I work directly for Jeff Kiesel and he wanted me to post this. We have been getting a lot of people asking us if we were going to be the company doing ViK USA and especially now with this mess we want to set the record straight. I've been following this thread since about NAMM and I believe a customer of mine from Los Angeles posted something a while back about him speaking with Jeff about the us doing the USA line.
> 
> We've been asked before and I have no idea why Vik decided to tell some people (and I'm talking about you folks who have been hinting at who the USA company was) that it was going to be us. We never agreed to anything and told him no on several occasions.
> 
> This is an official statement from Jeff Kiesel.
> 
> 
> 
> So hope that clears things up.
> 
> Thanks guys!



Makes me wonder if Vik USA was ever in the pipeline at all...


----------



## asher

Tommy Deaks said:


> Makes me wonder if Vik USA was ever in the pipeline at all...



Well, yes in the sense that Vik was trying to make it happen. But apparently not in any confirmed, contractual way - unless there's another builder still.


----------



## Rook

ChrisH said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I posted this in the ViK megathread in the Dealers portion but I figured I should post this here as well.
> 
> For those that don't know me (it's ok, I'm not important or famous anyways haha) but my name is Chris and I work for Carvin Guitars in San Diego. I work directly for Jeff Kiesel and he wanted me to post this. We have been getting a lot of people asking us if we were going to be the company doing ViK USA and especially now with this mess we want to set the record straight. I've been following this thread since about NAMM and I believe a customer of mine from Los Angeles posted something a while back about him speaking with Jeff about the us doing the USA line.
> 
> We've been asked before and I have no idea why Vik decided to tell some people (and I'm talking about you folks who have been hinting at who the USA company was) that it was going to be us. We never agreed to anything and told him no on several occasions.
> 
> This is an official statement from Jeff Kiesel.
> 
> 
> 
> So hope that clears things up.
> 
> Thanks guys!



I like you.


----------



## Tommy Deaks

asher said:


> Well, yes in the sense that Vik was trying to make it happen. But apparently not in any confirmed, contractual way - unless there's another builder still.



That's what I mean - I doubt he actually got anywhere close to establishing Vik USA and I certainly don't think it will happen now!


----------



## chopeth85

Wings of Obsidian said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Vik just made it so that no one can post on the Vik Guitars page. He also made his profile private so no one can see or post on his stuff.
> But.........he also deleted everything and posted again.



The funny thing is that , due to his ignorance, he admit we are " proud of being...in that way?!"cause he thinks we show to the world " hey, look at me, im gay" I feel as normal as anyone so i dont need that anyone symphatize with me. If vik wasnt ignorant, hed realized that the most gays hasnt any weird behaviour that show us different... Or do straights show us their proud ? We usually not ( eith some exceptions, like in straightworld )


----------



## Convictional

RustInPeace said:


> Offtopic- RAN should build Carvin



FTFY.

(Sorry for off topic )


----------



## mattofvengeance

"I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar."- Quoted for ultimate truth from that Bulb statement.


co-signed: a fervent LGBT supporter with a massive Pride flag waving above his rig at the practice room.


----------



## noUser01

As much as I disagree with ItWillDo's comments (as made very clear by my posts in this thread), can we take a step back and not call the man a bigot please? He is raising a good point regarding people's response to different types of bigotry. I disagree with his opinions but he has brought up a perfectly valid subject that we should all think about. It's worth asking why we have such a strong response in this specific situation. I think that response is very valid and I don't think we have to justify our response to it, but for the love of god... He is not a bigot, he's not oppressing gay people, just relax.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Being tolerant of hate is not something we should ever consider. Bigotry in general should be decried, but bigotry towards homosexuals is the current topic. It makes zero sense to talk about race, gender, or whatever else. If Vik said "niggers are dumb," we'd be in a fit about that.


----------



## Quitty

ConnorGilks said:


> As much as I disagree with ItWillDo's comments (as made very clear by my posts in this thread), can we take a step back and not call the man a bigot please? He is raising a good point regarding people's response to different types of bigotry. I disagree with his opinions but he has brought up a perfectly valid subject that we should all think about. It's worth asking why we have such a strong response in this specific situation. I think that response is very valid and I don't think we have to justify our response to it, but for the love of god... He is not a bigot, he's not oppressing gay people, just relax.



We're responding because it is very clear to most of us that being gay is normal.
It's also, by now, quite clear that being black is normal. Chinese, too. Probably Jewish as well.
Hopefully, in the foreseeable future, it will be considered equally normal to be... I dunno. Arab? Transgender? Pro-ana? 

So yeah, we aren't completely bigotry-free, as a culture.
Yet.


----------



## noUser01

Quitty said:


> We're responding because it is very clear to most of us that being gay is normal.
> It's also, by now, quite clear that being black is normal. Chinese, too. Probably Jewish as well.
> Hopefully, in the foreseeable future, it will be considered equally normal to be... I dunno. Arab? Transgender? Pro-ana?
> 
> So yeah, we aren't completely bigotry-free, as a culture.
> Yet.



I think you've missed my point. I already said our response to Vik is justified, I'm talking about certain individuals and their response to ItWillDo and his clearly not-pro-Vik comments somehow making him a bigot.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Rook said:


> I like you.



I like you liking him because I like him too, which you'll probably like. 



chopeth85 said:


> The funny thing is that , due to his ignorance, he admit we are " proud of being...in that way?!"cause he thinks we show to the world " hey, look at me, im gay" I feel as normal as anyone so i dont need that anyone symphatize with me. If vik wasnt ignorant, hed realized that the most gays hasnt any weird behaviour that show us different... Or do straights show us their proud ? We usually not ( eith some exceptions, like in straightworld )



I didn't understand a single frickin' word of this... ^


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Wings of Obsidian said:


> I didn't understand a single frickin' word of this... ^



It took a bit of head scratching, but you can get the gist of it. I'm assuming English is not their first language, and if that's the case then I applaud them for partaking in the conversation better than I would have been able to in any other language.

Edit: to clarify, they essentially said gays are no different than straight people.


----------



## stevexc

Wings of Obsidian said:


> I like you liking him because I like him too, which you'll probably like.
> 
> 
> 
> I didn't understand a single frickin' word of this... ^





Chokey Chicken said:


> It took a bit of head scratching, but you can get the gist of it. I'm assuming English is not their first language, and if that's the case then I applaud them for partaking in the conversation better than I would have been able to in any other language.



I think the gist is "It's funny that Vik thinks we act really weird to show we're different, but I feel like I'm a normal person" and some stuff about pride that I assume is language barrier effected and not in regards to pride parades and the like.


----------



## chopeth85

what im trying to say is that the most of gays dont show any kind of special behaviour to show we are proud to be gay..." im gay, you are straight. You dont show pride because of your sexuality, me neither. " most people, at least here in Spain, think in that way. 

PD: thank you for the help, i was in the train with the mobile and its complicated for me to write properly in that situation. As well as that,for me, its a complex issue to explain it in english lol.


----------



## VigilSerus

chopeth85 said:


> what im trying to say is that the most of gays dont show any kind of special behaviour to show we are proud to be gay..." im gay, you are straight. You dont show pride because of your sexuality, me neither. " most people, at least here in Spain, think in that way.
> 
> PD: thank you for the help, i was in the train with the mobile and its complicated for me to write properly in that situation. As well as that,for me, its a complex issue to explain it in english lol.



There are plenty of flamboyant gays in US and everywhere. They can and do act "different". I'm a little bit more of a male relationship leaning bisexual, but I act straight as ...., haha.


----------



## StevenC




----------



## Captain Butterscotch

He does not give a single f uck. Not one. Not a solitary f uck was given by Vik Kuletski this day.


----------



## narad

StevenC said:


>



Yarr - he be settin' course fer trech'rous waters!


----------



## fps

ShadowsfeaR said:


> There are plenty of flamboyant gays in US and everywhere. They can and do act "different". I'm a little bit more of a male relationship leaning bisexual, but I act straight as ...., haha.



Don't get me started on those overtly straight guys, jeez.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

StevenC said:


>



Saw this, screamed bullshit, but sadly I can't do anything being banned from the page and blocked by Vik.

He needs to apologize for his wrongdoing, not his "perceived wrongdoing by others based on his interpretation".

In the meantime, Misha Mansoor's post has garnered over 3,000 combined "likes" on Facebook, (between those who have access to Misha's personal profile and those who do not,) along with the stuff thanks to other places (like here and Metal Injection and Tumblr and other sites), I'm going to estimate that about 3,200 people have rallied to the cause.

So who is wrong?
1 man...or 3,200 collective people?


----------



## asher

Wings of Obsidian said:


> So who is wrong?
> 1 man...or 3,200 collective people?



That is a really, really bad metric to use, generally speaking.

Correct here though


----------



## The ProfEscher

ShadowsfeaR said:


> There are plenty of flamboyant gays in US and everywhere. They can and do act "different".


Just like there are plenty of straight men who flaunt their sexuality by frequently catcalling women on the street, rating every woman they see on an attractiveness scale from 1 to 10, making lewd or sexual comments to women who are complete strangers, etc. I generally find this type much more obnoxious than flamboyant gays.


----------



## hairychris

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> Like I said: I wasn't well informed. I am now.



Group hug, dude! 



ChrisH said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I posted this in the ViK megathread in the Dealers portion but I figured I should post this here as well.
> 
> For those that don't know me (it's ok, I'm not important or famous anyways haha) but my name is Chris and I work for Carvin Guitars in San Diego. I work directly for Jeff Kiesel and he wanted me to post this. We have been getting a lot of people asking us if we were going to be the company doing ViK USA and especially now with this mess we want to set the record straight. I've been following this thread since about NAMM and I believe a customer of mine from Los Angeles posted something a while back about him speaking with Jeff about the us doing the USA line.
> 
> We've been asked before and I have no idea why Vik decided to tell some people (and I'm talking about you folks who have been hinting at who the USA company was) that it was going to be us. We never agreed to anything and told him no on several occasions.
> 
> This is an official statement from Jeff Kiesel.
> 
> 
> 
> So hope that clears things up.
> 
> Thanks guys!



Epic. I've always liked Carvin but it's been a PITA to own one over here (aaaand I've owned 3).

And ChrisH? That's how I normally sign myself off on other media. 



StevenC said:


>



I was going to post that. Still....


----------



## ChrisH

You've got a good name sir! haha


----------



## hairychris

I blame my mother, Mr H! 

And aiming for bannination... if Vik knows any Shakespeare...


----------



## Chokey Chicken

ShadowsfeaR said:


> There are plenty of flamboyant gays in US and everywhere. They can and do act "different". I'm a little bit more of a male relationship leaning bisexual, but I act straight as ...., haha.



This is true to a degree. Being flamboyant isn't strictly a gay thing though. Gay people aren't inherently loud and eccentric. It's actually a bit of a stereotype, and most of the actually gay people I personally know don't "act" gay. I also happen to know a couple flaming heterosexuals, who are just as flamboyant as the stereotypical gay man.

The point being, gays are usually only as apparently gay as they let on. I'm all for flamboyant over-the-top gay, but good god is it awkward (and frequently a blast) to be around them. They're usually way more comfortable in the spotlight than I am. Gives me some crazy anxiety sometimes. 

Edit: I don't think an apology is necessary, as it would just be hollow. We know his stance on the matter, and at this point it's just about raising awareness that he's a bigot. People can see that and be fine with it, or detest it and move on to something else, hopefully letting others know who their money would be going to should they make a purchase.


----------



## hairychris

Chokey Chicken said:


> This is true to a degree. Being flamboyant isn't strictly a gay thing though. Gay people aren't inherently loud and eccentric. It's actually a bit of a stereotype, and most of the actually gay people I personally know don't "act" gay. I also happen to know a couple flaming heterosexuals, who are just as flamboyant as the stereotypical gay man.
> 
> The point being, gays are usually only as apparently gay as they let on. I'm all for flamboyant over-the-top gay, but good god is it awkward (and frequently a blast) to be around them. They're usually way more comfortable in the spotlight than I am. Gives me some crazy anxiety sometimes.



Ditto. There are flamboyantly gay folks but they are in the minority. Which is exactly the same as heterosexual people: a small proportion are extravagantly so, but all the rest just get on with it.

I'll say one thing though: I've had funnier nights out with spectacularly gay people than I've had with their equally extreme hetero counterparts!


----------



## BucketheadRules

Ninja'd by Chris but still, can you believe this guy?





Why's he still assuming people are coming to his page to see the guitar building that HE CLEARLY ISN'T DOING (cough cough, sorry)... and then to apologise for what everyone else is saying in response to his bigoted views. I almost can't believe he's serious. "Preventing young minds from reading all the bullshit that some individuals are trying to post on here"? He's lost the f*cking plot, seriously. Now he's a moral crusader trying to protect the innocent little children from those evil bastards who think gay people are normal too? The only young minds I'm worried about are any children he has or will have...

I don't think he's going to have many fans left before long. Hence my reply, which is in the box - didn't post it on FB because it'd only end up being deleted anyway, and I didn't feel like making a scene about it there. So it's here instead, where it can be seen by all, and there's not a lot he can do about it


----------



## Genome

StevenC said:


>



That's what he gets for blabberin' to his mates.


----------



## Rook

I've been watching his page, he's only dropped 1000 likes. It's easy to forget our community's smaller than we think it is, and there are lots of 'casuals' who won't catch wind of any of this stuff because of how Facebook works etc.

And you actually have to encourage people to *do* something to unlike on Facebook, which is hard to do. If you can do that, you're worth a shit lot of money to someone haha.

But yeah, at last count he'd dipped around 1k out of 15k likes. I realise it's only been a day, but in social media a day's a long time. If he's not lost half his likes within a day, his count won't be hurt cripplingly badly, I wouldn't think.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

And a lot of people (myself included) aren't going to unlike his page so we can watch this soap opera unfold.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Rook said:


> I've been watching his page, he's only dropped 1000 likes. It's easy to forget our community's smaller than we think it is, and there are lots of 'casuals' who won't catch wind of any of this stuff because of how Facebook works etc.
> 
> And you actually have to encourage people to *do* something to unlike on Facebook, which is hard to do. If you can do that, you're worth a shit lot of money to someone haha.
> 
> But yeah, at last count he'd dipped around 1k out of 15k likes. I realise it's only been a day, but in social media a day's a long time. If he's not lost half his likes within a day, his count won't be hurt cripplingly badly, I wouldn't think.



But how many of those 14K can actually afford a Vik? Or will actually purchase one?...

...exactly.



Captain Butterscotch said:


> And a lot of people (myself included) aren't going to unlike his page so we can watch this soap opera unfold.



Well, even though I've been blocked on Vik's personal profile and banned from the business page, I can still see things unfold. So there' that... And majority of the unfolding is taking place on posts/statuses by others on Facebook, forums (like here), Twitter, Tumblr, etc.


----------



## hairychris

Genome said:


> That's what he gets for blabberin' to his mates.



Or his local (aka Belarussian) mates.

This sort of shit may well be accepted in a lot of social circles there. Note: I'm not an expert, however, I do know that the further east in Europe you go, the worse for LBGT equality it gets. "Traditional" is not a... simple term.

What has ....ed him up is that his audience is not simply local.

He is aiming for a western audience - they/we are the people who will spend cash on his work.

I'll just stop there.


----------



## JohnIce

The ProfEscher said:


> Just like there are plenty of straight men who flaunt their sexuality by frequently catcalling women on the street, rating every woman they see on an attractiveness scale from 1 to 10, making lewd or sexual comments to women who are complete strangers, etc. I generally find this type much more obnoxious than flamboyant gays.



Church!

I'd high-five you but... ehm, wi-five maybe?


----------



## RoRo56

I think that part of the reason he made the page 17+ was that people were posting explicit pictures on the page's wall.


----------



## hairychris

Wings of Obsidian said:


> But how many of those 14K can actually afford a Vik? Or will actually purchase one?...
> 
> ...exactly.



I could without too much trouble, if I put my mind to it and shuffled stuff around.

He won't be getting any custom from me.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Rook said:


> I've been watching his page, he's only dropped 1000 likes. It's easy to forget our community's smaller than we think it is, and there are lots of 'casuals' who won't catch wind of any of this stuff because of how Facebook works etc.
> 
> And you actually have to encourage people to *do* something to unlike on Facebook, which is hard to do. If you can do that, you're worth a shit lot of money to someone haha.
> 
> But yeah, at last count he'd dipped around 1k out of 15k likes. I realise it's only been a day, but in social media a day's a long time. If he's not lost half his likes within a day, his count won't be hurt cripplingly badly, I wouldn't think.



Yeah, I don't think this is the death of his business, unless it was already going the way of s7g. The fact that it turned anybody off from buying his shit is good enough for me. Especially with the likes of Nolly and Misha publicly voicing their distaste.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

RoRo56 said:


> I think that part of the reason he made the page 17+ was that people were posting explicit pictures on the page's wall.



Saw that too.
See man, I thought Facebook was supposed to prevent nudity and pornography.
I guess not in this case...seen soooo much of it flooding towards Vik in the past 24 hours. (I actually reported a picture in my news feed to see what would happen...nothing happened and Facebook denied the report. So hey, maybe FB is against Vik too?)


----------



## Rook

Wings of Obsidian said:


> But how many of those 14K can actually afford a Vik? Or will actually purchase one?...
> 
> ...exactly.



My network probably consists of say 4-5000 people - friends, acquaintances and friends of friends willing to talk to me. Every single time I've advertised a guitar worth upward of $3000, often more, it's gone with a couple of days, and I've never sold to the same person twice.

Of those 14,000, if only half a percent are worth any money, at $4500 a piece he's got $315,000 worth of business just sat there.

Even if he has a _fifth of that_, he's in business another year, more than long enough for this to blow over.


----------



## xCaptainx

Rook said:


> But yeah, at last count he'd dipped around 1k out of 15k likes. I realise it's only been a day, but in social media a day's a long time. If he's not lost half his likes within a day, his count won't be hurt cripplingly badly, I wouldn't think.



I admin a FB page with 15k and work part time with a digital marketing company. To drop over 6% of your social media reach in 24 hours is a marketing nightmare, regardless of size or scope. Google will have a field day with this and no doubt this information will be first page results for searches for years to come, based on the pages that are sharing it and discussing it. It's an absolute nightmare that absolutely no reputable marketing person would want to go near.


----------



## Necris

I've reported probably around 10 pornographic images posted on Viks page now, it's ....ing ridiculous. How dumb can you be? Vik can now play the victim and feel justified in his beliefs since the mean old gays and their supporters are so immoral that they will post pornographic images on a public page that can be viewed by minors. 

Good job guys, that was really well thought out. ....ing morons.


----------



## stevexc

Necris said:


> I've reported probably around 10 pornographic images posted on Viks page now, it's ....ing ridiculous. How dumb can you be? Vik can now play the victim and feel justified in his beliefs since the mean old gays and their supporters are so immoral that they will post pornographic images on a public page that can be viewed by minors.
> 
> Good job guys, that was really well thought out. ....ing morons.



...because stooping to below his level will make things better


----------



## groverj3

I have a lot of respect for Nolly and Per for calling him out publicly.


----------



## Andromalia

If I was an amercian citizen, I totally wouldn't tip off some LGBT associations about this so they make some noise so maybe his immigration visas don't get issued. I totally wouldn't do it.

On the other hand, these kind of people going elsewhere is a bonus for us europeans.

Mhhh. /ponder.





Anf about the "flamboyant gay folk", one, it's their life, two, judging all gays by them is like judging all straights by this:


----------



## Konfyouzd

Would or wouldn't? That was confusing...


----------



## noUser01

Hah, tells people he's free to express his opinion and that if you don't like it you need to deal with it.

Starts deleting posts and banning people off of his profile and page.

I'll have one order of irony please.


----------



## Andromalia

Konfyouzd said:


> Would or wouldn't? That was confusing...


I'll correct the above post.


----------



## Rook

xCaptainx said:


> I admin a FB page with 15k and work part time with a digital marketing company. To drop over 6% of your social media reach in 24 hours is a marketing nightmare, regardless of size or scope. Google will have a field day with this and no doubt this information will be first page results for searches for years to come, based on the pages that are sharing it and discussing it. It's an absolute nightmare that absolutely no reputable marketing person would want to go near.



I admin pages with over 100,000 likes between them outside of work and work in digital marketing full time for a well known electronics company haha. I hate myself for engaging in that, I hate Internet credentials, but just to reaffirm where I'm coming from...

It's a substantial dip for a day, but the lifetime of this kinda thing on this internet is measured in hours these days, not weeks, definitely not years. The articles will drop down the SEO food chain over the next month or so as people move on and google decides they're outdated, and people will have argued about whether or not they care about it more by then.

Nope. For a huge corp this could cost a hell of a lot of money, for a small builder who only needs small quantities to stay afloat - it's a small boat but with a cast iron hull, we're not witnessing the sinking of the titanic here.


----------



## Promit

Rook said:


> I admin pages with over 100,000 likes between them outside of work and work in digital marketing full time for a well known electronics company haha.
> 
> It's a big dip for a day, but the lifetime of this kinda thing on this internet is measured in hours these days, not weeks, definitely not years.


I wonder if Brendan Eich would agree with you. Sometimes a few days can do a lot of damage.


----------



## asher

Promit said:


> I wonder if Brendan Eich would agree with you. Sometimes a few days can do a lot of damage.



There was a lot of internal pressure there too.


----------



## Rook

Promit said:


> I wonder if Brendan Eich would agree with you. Sometimes a few days can do a lot of damage.



To continue my previous analogy, that _would be_ the sinking of the titanic.

Very different circumstances, and people still use FireFox.


----------



## Veldar

I'm sixteen, been to my countrie's LGBT parade and homosexual uncle I the best father figure I've had in my life.

I can't believe that someone would openly say they're homophobic, I'm glad that Vik is getting such a negative response I'll set an example that the metal community has/is changing.


----------



## Devyn Eclipse Nav

Makes me wonder what he would think of me, someone who at first appears to be a straight, cis, white male, but is ACTUALLY a transgender queer woman.

His head would spin so much we could probably power the server that supports this site off it.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Well, I'm already growing weary of this whole Vik thing, guys... I mean, at least people continuing to blow it up beyond measure by doing stupid stuff (such as the childish insults and posting the gay pornography everywhere). We all got to take our shots at the guy...but some people just take it too far.

This event has proved two good things to me though:
1.) Vik is a bigger dick than any of us could've imagined.
2.) The metal community banned together for a positive cause, specifically a cause that has been controversial and now has to do with our changing of times. (Refer to my pic below.)

Anyway, I posted a status and figured I'd just screenshot it onto here.


----------



## jephjacques

hahaha .... this guy


----------



## KultureDekay

People can come off in many different ways when it comes to disagreeing gay marriage and anything related. Most of the time they quote the bible or whatever (Boring!). But insulting the Cynic dudes and Ola's creation right away? Dayum

btw some assclown told him to take his FB cover off, because according to the clown, Javier Reyes is gay too .


----------



## Mik3D23

KultureDekay said:


> But insulting the Cynic dudes and Ola's creation right away? Dayum



Headless guitars aren't Ola's invention. But point taken


----------



## Convictional

Mik3D23 said:


> Headless guitars aren't Ola's invention. But point taken



He said creation, not invention. There is a difference.


----------



## ElRay

You're still not getting it. People can believe what ever nonsense they want to believe. That doesn't mean that they cannot be corrected when they speak, publish, post, etc. their nonsense. If they don't want their views critiqued, commented on, corrected, etc. then they should keep their ideas to themselves.

*Freedom of Speech is NOT freedom from critique, comment or correction.*

Vik is free to BELIEVE anything he wants, he just has to deal with the repercussions of begin a bigot. Just as he's free to post his nonsense, people are free to call him out, launch an "internet crusade" and boycott his product.

Threatening violence in not good. So if you're including that in your "internet crusade" label, then I'll agree that that aspect is not acceptable; however, spreading the word that somebody's a bigot and calling for a boycott is totally acceptable.

*People* earn/deserve respect. Ideas don't. It's not a matter of intelectual superiority to critique, comment or correct ideas released to any public forum. 

You hit the nail on the head regarding mythology. There's truly no difference between the stories of Roman, Greek, Egyptian, Norse, Hindu, Japanese, Korean, Chinese, Thai, Aboriginal (Americas, African, Indonesian, Australian, etc.), Abrahamic (Babism, Bahá'í Faith, Christianity (all 300+ Sects), Islam (all 50+ Sects), Judaism (all 30+ sects), Rastafarii, Mandaeans, Sabians & Shabakism), Buddhist, Jainist, Hindu, Scientologist, Raelean, e.g. any of the 2700+ omnipotent invisible buddies created by man, mythology, yet somehow the BELIEVERS get special privilege and are free to preach without critique, comment or correction. That is wrong. If BELIEVERS are free to preach their mythology, others are free to point-out where it makes no sense, contradicts reality, is self-conflicting, hypocritical, damaging to society, been used to justify hate, bigotry, discrimination, violence, etc.


----------



## Edika

I agree with Ray. 

People get confused and think because they have resolved some controversial issues in their minds, speak to like minded individuals and frequent parts of the internet that are compatible with their ideology, especially people that don't experience discrimination, that these issues have been resolved. A person or group expressing a controversial opinion is considered anachronistic and any reaction by other group or people is thought as an over reaction by the people unaffected by them.

However people that discriminating are usually quite fanatic about it and just won't give up. They feel that they are on a mission. If there is no reaction hen gradually things start seeping in to the subconscious minds of apathetic people. If a group is quite vocal and manipulates circumstances it can not only push for unreasonable changes but even in cases rewrite history in the minds of the majority.

So yes there is mostly freedom of speech in most western countries, but that doesn't mean it is above criticism. This is the way society progresses. People with stupid ideas control the way things works until another more progressive group takes them on and topples them. Unfortunately that leads to the opposite direction sometimes, which should reinforce the belief that civil and human rights are our own creation that change depending on the majority's beliefs.


----------



## HaloHat

bulb said:


> The right to free speech means that you won't go to jail for speaking your mind, however you will still have to face the consequences that follow the things you choose to say.
> 
> People seem to forget this a lot.



There are plenty of places in the world today where you will not only go to jail for what you say but where what you say can get you executed. People forget that a lot too. 

Internally debating whether or not to post my opinion on the subject in general since this thread has gone way past the VIK issue. Not concerned about consequences, more concerned about the way text in a post can be taken/misunderstood different ways by different people.


----------



## HaloHat

darren said:


> Jobs was an uncompromising asshole, but last I checked, he never behaved in a discriminatory manner against entire groups of people. Except maybe idiots. He was definitely intolerant of idiots.



I think what the other post was trying to say is the problem was that Jobs was the sole judge and jury as to who is or is not an idiot, to use your example. And to disagree with him was your ticket to a new employment search at the least. You were not going to discuss the issues with him. You are to agree or be gone.
----
edit: up to Dec. 12th 1980.
Ironic that Microsoft/Gates is who kept Apple/Jobs from going out of business.


----------



## narad

HaloHat said:


> I think what the other post was trying to say is the problem was that Jobs was the sole judge and jury as to who is or is not an idiot, to use your example. And to disagree with him was your ticket to a new employment search at the least. You were not going to discuss the issues with him. You are to agree or be gone.



And Jobs was an employer. The flow of currency is opposite. If I get anything out of these types of scenarios it's that people are outright terrible at proposing reasonable analogies!*

*The 'anal' in 'analogies' comes from the Greek, not the Latin. Homophobes fear not!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Even Metal Hammer is spreading the news.

http://www.metalhammer.com/news/2014-05-14/guitar-maker-in-hot-water-over-homophobic-comments


----------



## StevenC

This is becoming pretty "Uroboric"...


----------



## Nats

BOOM! He played the Christian card!


----------



## petereanima

Jesus, this motherfvcker really doesn't know when to stop...


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Gay propaganda...


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Gay propaganda...


----------



## hairychris

StevenC said:


> This is becoming pretty "Uroboric"...



"I don't judge people based on..."

vs

"I don't like and don't approve..."



Riiiiight.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I had no idea that I _chose_ to like women. It must have had some really nice benefits, considering all the physical and mental shit I've had to go through and still not _choose_ to go back. Yup, I'm so selfish, and find so much pleasure in being with the same sex, that it's totally worth _choosing_ to keep at it, despite the constant harassment.

Perhaps I personally had a choice since I'm bisexual, but I didn't choose that either. And I wouldn't change my love life for anything in the world. My partner certainly didn't choose to be a lesbian, and she's way more secluded than I am. She _does_ fill guilty and shameful and, at least for a while, wanted/tried to change. All because of assholes like this guy trying to pressure people into what they deem normal. Playing the "unnatural" card while they're driving around in cars, eating foods with preservatives, living in houses with climate control, wearing clothes, making guitars. Seriously, if "unnatural" is bad (and homosexuality is certainly natural, albeit the minority), then stop building guitars, or driving around, you ....ing prick.


----------



## ElRay

ItWillDo said:


> ... makes me a bigot ...



I didn't call you a bigot. I just stated that the "I don't condone ... but ..." line is often used by bigots that don't want to admit they are. It ranks up there with "I'm not a racist, but [insert some racist comment]"


----------



## VigilSerus

Chokey Chicken said:


> I had no idea that I _chose_ to like women. It must have had some really nice benefits, considering all the physical and mental shit I've had to go through and still not _choose_ to go back. Yup, I'm so selfish, and find so much pleasure in being with the same sex, that it's totally worth _choosing_ to keep at it, despite the constant harassment.
> 
> Perhaps I personally had a choice since I'm bisexual, but I didn't choose that either. And I wouldn't change my love life for anything in the world. My partner certainly didn't choose to be a lesbian, and she's way more secluded than I am. She _does_ fill guilty and shameful and, at least for a while, wanted/tried to change. All because of assholes like this guy trying to pressure people into what they deem normal. Playing the "unnatural" card while they're driving around in cars, eating foods with preservatives, living in houses with climate control, wearing clothes, making guitars. Seriously, if "unnatural" is bad (and homosexuality is certainly natural, albeit the minority), then stop building guitars, or driving around, you ....ing prick.



Absolutely. Personally I have battled with myself about why I am the way I am. I've always thought before hand "nah I'm not gonna be gay" and then two years later I find myself attracted to men. At first I didn't think much of it, but then I kept thinking to myself "How did this even happen?" It scared me, and still kind of does. The potential of losing friends and family members is so prominent too, what if they don't want to be around or associate with you? My entire fathers side (sans my father) is Christian. I love them dearly and have fond and great memories with them. If they found out I was Bi, I have no idea what would happen. I feel like it would be negative, but a part of me wants to feel like they'd still be accepting and loving (like a GOOD Christian, that I feel they are).

The whole "choice" thing is ridiculous. Why would someone chose to put themselves through social hell?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

ShadowsfeaR said:


> Absolutely. Personally I have battled with myself about why I am the way I am. I've always thought before hand "nah I'm not gonna be gay" and then two years later I find myself attracted to men. At first I didn't think much of it, but then I kept thinking to myself "How did this even happen?" It scared me, and still kind of does. The potential of losing friends and family members is so prominent too, what if they don't want to be around or associate with you? My entire fathers side (sans my father) is Christian. I love them dearly and have fond and great memories with them. If they found out I was Bi, I have no idea what would happen. I feel like it would be negative, but a part of me wants to feel like they'd still be accepting and loving (like a GOOD Christian, that I feel they are).
> 
> The whole "choice" thing is ridiculous. Why would someone chose to put themselves through social hell?



A good way of finding out if they'll be accepting is to find their stance on gay rights in general. Like, show support for lgbt issues and gauge their responses. If they're right alongside you in your support, then chances are good that they'll be accepting. Of course, if they're not thrilled with lgbt support, you'll be forced to realize that they probably wouldn't like you for who you are. One could argue that friends like that aren't worth keeping, but at the same time they're the people you've grown bonds with over the years and it's not easy. (And that's not even taking family into account.)

I wish you the best of luck in whichever route you take. I know full well how difficult this kind of thing is. Life's too short to waste time not being happy.

Edit: I should say that religion is the biggest pain in my ass as a bisexual. I'm so insanely bitter towards the religious, it's probably not healthy.


----------



## asher

Did a bunch of posts get deleted? It looks like there are some phantom arguments otherwise


----------



## Rick

Haven't been around in a couple of days, what have you guys been up to?


----------



## no_dice

Wow, his apology almost comes off like Family Guy's version of Mel Gibson's apology to the Jewish people.


----------



## Promit

I want to highlight something: he says "as a father, a husband [&#8230;]" This is a dog whistle. It feeds another storyline that won't everyone just think of the children, that homosexuality is not somethings kids and families can should be exposed to, etc. It's almost a variety if don't ask, don't tell -- Vik is suggesting that being gay is something to be hidden.

Just wanted to make sure everyone saw and knew that. It's a relatively common "soft" opposition to homosexuality that many religious people have.


----------



## Purelojik

So vik disappoints me sure. but i think that disappoints me as well is the number of people jumping on the hate bandwagon against him. Reading the comments there are a handful of people making sound remarks and the other ones calling Vik something derogatory. I know its the internet and all and you gotta take the good with the bad, but honestly there's a lot of bad on both sides. 

Vik's been an inspiration to me, and has influenced my style of building. Its sad to see someone you've admired for a while figuratively take a shovel and bury himself infront of everyone.

Fact remains is that he made a choice to come out and say something that really didnt need to be said. He could have avoided all of this. Whats also the double whammy is that his name IS his business and therefor whatever he says, is representative of the business he runs. While this shouldnt technically affect his guitar building, hes gotta realize that because owning a custom guitar is a luxury, NOT a necessity, people will find another way to scratch the custom guitar itch, while also feeling good about supporting the beliefs of the owner of a business.


----------



## asher

Dude makes bigoted asshole comments, you get mad at people calling him a bigoted asshole?

There have been very few comments here that go past that. There seems to have been a lot of crap on FB though, which... yeah. Less than cool.


----------



## StevenC

Metal Sucks goes to town with it:

99 Other Things Besides Headless Guitars That Vik Guitars' Vik Kuletski Can No Longer Appreciate or Utilize On Account of Homosexuals - MetalSucks


----------



## Purelojik

asher said:


> Dude makes bigoted asshole comments, you get mad at people calling him a bigoted asshole?
> 
> There have been very few comments here that go past that. There seems to have been a lot of crap on FB though, which... yeah. Less than cool.



yea exactly. I mean sure vik deserves a certain amount of criticism for stating his opinions in those poorly veiled ways. Overall the response is overwhelmingly positive in support for equal rights. I was just noticing certain posts on FB (not SSO, i should have been more clear) with people just chiming in to throw rocks, rather than to make an informed comment. Thats all.


----------



## asher

Oh, yeah, absolutely.


----------



## asher

StevenC said:


> Metal Sucks goes to town with it:
> 
> 99 Other Things Besides Headless Guitars That Vik Guitars' Vik Kuletski Can No Longer Appreciate or Utilize On Account of Homosexuals - MetalSucks


----------



## Necris

> 68. High Fives
> 69. Low Fives



I lost it.


----------



## JamesM

> 51. Death (the band)
> 52. Death (the cessation of life)


----------



## ChrisH

That status/statement he made was fairly well written. I'm under the suspicion he had his business partner in Texas write it up for him.


----------



## Mik3D23

I'll just leave this here:


----------



## asher

I see Tymon, this is going places 

ed: omg


----------



## StevenC

It's up to you now, internet.


----------



## Paul McAleer




----------



## The Spanish Inquisition

HomophoViK


----------



## asher

The Spanish Inquisition said:


> HomophoViK



/thread?


----------



## molsoncanadian

I think this whole thing is stupid all together, and I certainly dont think it was handled maturely or responsibly by any parties. 

I am all for human rights, I have no issues with gay/lesbian communities ect ect, and as a matter of fact I have a couple gay friends.

However I read this as black and white. Vik is simply expressing an opinion. People dont like his opinion, and when he expanded on this opinion (his initial response was pretty cryptic IMO) people blew up. Don't get me wrong, that is some interesting wording he used, and I certainly dont think it was warranted or necessary.

The other side of the coin is Nolly/Bulb endorsement. Lets be honest, you 2 are literally punishing Vik and his business as a result of his ideals. I know there were issues experienced in the customer service area, but to openly trash the guy online makes you *no* better. You could have quietly dropped your endorsement, but instead I honestly feel like you guys capitalized on an already sinking ship. "Look at us being the good guys!" Yeah fvck that intolerant dick!

At the end of the day, you guys are fvcking with another human beings income. That is how he puts food on his table and feeds his kids. You 2 openly flamed him, and I would guarentee that as a result, his business has/will suffer. I would like you 2 to take a minute and think about his wife and kids before you go about screwing with someone elses income.

With all that being said, Vik does come off like an asshat, but guess what, I think? we are all adults here. Dont like what you see? Dont read it! I am not affiliated with Vik in any way shape or form, and while it sounds like I might be defending him, Im certainly not.

I just have an issue with all the "respect" people give Nolly and Bulb, when really it just shows how juvenile the both of you really are. I can always understand people bringing finish flaws to light, and keeping tabs on respectable luthiers ect, however, to drop an endorsement as a result of someones ideals? He simply doesnt have the same view as you. 

In closing I have to reiterate that I certainly dont respect the way Vik went about this at all, however, he is simply stating his opinion. Some people like red paint, others like blue. If more people shared Vik's opinion this would never have blown up the way it did. Something to think about.

Just my .02


----------



## Jonathan20022

Gay rights shouldn't even be an issue as prominent as it is whatsoever.

Coming from a Straight Christian who really thinks the amount of effort put into putting down people and something that affects no one but themselves.

And I don't have a problem with Vik, considering he's an asshole on the other side of the planet. I just really don't like him at all, that's how his logic works right?


----------



## stevexc

Jonathan20022 said:


> Gay rights shouldn't even be an issue as prominent as it is whatsoever.



Unfortunately, until it's a non-issue it'll be a prominent issue - as it should be.

That'll only happen when people first realize the difference between "holding an opinion" and "hate speech" - as you can see from this thread, there's a number of people who just don't understand the distinction.


----------



## molsoncanadian

Jonathan20022 said:


> Gay rights shouldn't even be an issue as prominent as it is whatsoever.
> 
> Coming from a Straight Christian who really thinks the amount of effort put into putting down people and something that affects no one but themselves.
> 
> And I don't have a problem with Vik, considering he's an asshole on the other side of the planet. I just really don't like him at all, that's how his logic works right?


 
If I have read this correctly, than yes. You can say, "I dont like him, he's a dumbass." However, posting a facebook status, and making waves on social media about it, makes you the dumbass IMO. Bulb and Nolly are well aware of how their words can affect, and they chose to go about this in the un-classiest matter possible IMO. Just drop your endorsement and leave Vik alone. We don't need your nobel peace prize speech on why you dont like how he thinks. I can't help but wonder if this would have gotten all swept under the rug if it wasnt for those 2, which is probably the way it should have gone. 

At the heart of this all, I just hate that Vik's income may/will be affected by all of this. The guy is a luthier, not a fvcking poet. He makes what I assume to be (I dont have any experience) high quality guitars, and has probably spent alot of hard work and money/sacrifice getting to where he is. And 2 prepubscent public figures could effectively cripple his market. That is what irks me. You endorse his guitar, not his opinions.


----------



## asher

... so when he requests that you support his opinions he stated _as part of his business_ or lose your endorsments, you kowtow?

You're not endorsing just the guitar, you're endorsing the *brand*.

Read the damn thread dude. Your lines of argument have all been previously addressed/refuted, and the ad hominems are really not helping your case.


----------



## UnderTheSign

molsoncanadian said:


> At the end of the day, you guys are fvcking with another human beings income. That is how he puts food on his table and feeds his kids. You 2 openly flamed him, and I would guarentee that as a result, his business has/will suffer. I would like you 2 to take a minute and think about his wife and kids before you go about screwing with someone elses income.
> 
> With all that being said, Vik does come off like an asshat, but guess what, I think? we are all adults here. Dont like what you see? Dont read it! I am not affiliated with Vik in any way shape or form, and while it sounds like I might be defending him, Im certainly not.


You know what also influences another human beings income and possibly their entire life? Prejudice against homosexuals.


----------



## Mik3D23

molsoncanadian said:


> At the end of the day, you guys are fvcking with another human beings income. That is how he puts food on his table and feeds his kids. You 2 openly flamed him, and I would guarentee that as a result, his business has/will suffer. I would like you 2 to take a minute and think about his wife and kids before you go about screwing with someone elses income.



Maybe he should have thought about his wife and his kids (which are his responsibility, not Misha's/Nolly's/Any other customers') before he made statements such that he did? I fail to see how this point makes sense. Especially considering the shady business practices that Vik has employed previous to this; just because he HAS a business doesn't require anyone to GIVE him their business. 

Also, I wouldn't necessarily call it "flaming him". Their responses were pretty concise and mature, and it's pretty clear that there were other problems that lead up to this in the first place.

It's not like this backlash came about because of some petty ideal. If Vik's comments were directed toward blacks or women, would the reaction then be justified in your mind? What if *gasp* he said these things about Christians? Vik chose to publicly state that he doesn't like homosexuals (among other things, "mother nature will fix it's mistakes" jumps right out), and as such, he has to live with the consequences. He is the PR of his company, and when you name your guitar company after yourself, your actions will generally be taken as a company action.

Of course Vik is entitled to his opinion. And we're all entitled to tell him to go fvck himself


----------



## Necris

He misjudged just how far and how quickly words can carry on the internet, and now he gets to suffer the consequences that result from that. Vik has made a name for himself, at the end of the day his own actions and words are affecting his brand. 

Lots of people work hard and make sacrifices to achieve success. Not all are successful and even for some who do achieve success it turns out to be fleeting. Effort and sacrifice don't entitle one to be successful nor do they entitle one to remain successful.

I feel that by purchasing or promoting his product I do, even if only in a small way, endorse his opinions.

I'm perfectly fine with affecting the income of _anyone_ whose views or actions I find reprehensible by deterring others from purchasing from them or doing business with them.


----------



## ItWillDo

stevexc said:


> Unfortunately, until it's a non-issue it'll be a prominent issue - as it should be.
> 
> That'll only happen when people first realize the difference between "holding an opinion" and "hate speech" - as you can see from this thread, there's a number of people who just don't understand the distinction.



Yes, because being so "supportive" of LGBT that wishing Vik bankruptcy and to die in a fire doesn't even come near the 'hate speech' he has expressed.

I'm willing to bet that about 70% of the people who are currently bandwagoning this whole deal, probably call someone a 'faggot' on a regular base.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Who cares if it cripples his market? I'm glad anyone would essentially pull funding from a bigot. I certainly don't want to help the dude out if he's actively making my life more difficult.


----------



## SavM

molsoncanadian said:


> If I have read this correctly, than yes. You can say, "I dont like him, he's a dumbass." However, posting a facebook status, and making waves on social media about it, makes you the dumbass IMO. Bulb and Nolly are well aware of how their words can affect, and they chose to go about this in the un-classiest matter possible IMO. Just drop your endorsement and leave Vik alone. We don't need your nobel peace prize speech on why you dont like how he thinks. I can't help but wonder if this would have gotten all swept under the rug if it wasnt for those 2, which is probably the way it should have gone.
> 
> At the heart of this all, I just hate that Vik's income may/will be affected by all of this. The guy is a luthier, not a fvcking poet. He makes what I assume to be (I dont have any experience) high quality guitars, and has probably spent alot of hard work and money/sacrifice getting to where he is. And 2 prepubscent public figures could effectively cripple his market. That is what irks me. You endorse his guitar, not his opinions.



You reap what you sow, and ohhhh how he has been sowing.


----------



## asher

ItWillDo said:


> Yes, because being so "supportive" of LGBT that wishing Vik bankruptcy and to die in a fire doesn't even come near the 'hate speech' he has expressed.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that about 70% of the people who are currently bandwagoning this whole deal, probably call someone a 'faggot' on a regular base.



Most of the language on this forum has been more civil than wishing him to die in a fire. I think you'd see a lot of us expressing that those responses are also wrong and not called for.

Also, I'm willing to bet you're completely wrong.


----------



## molsoncanadian

UnderTheSign said:


> You know what also influences another human beings income and possibly their entire life? Prejudice against homosexuals.


 
WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore. 

Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.


----------



## asher

molsoncanadian said:


> WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.
> 
> Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.



People who actually give a damn about how other people are treated.


----------



## stevexc

molsoncanadian said:


> WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.
> 
> Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.



Totally 100% agree - who cares if a large population of the world is stripped of their rights due to their sexual preferences? Who cares if people are murdered across the world because of it? Who cares if there is absolutely no consequence to alienating people who are different than you?

And in case my sarcasm is going over people's heads:



molsoncanadian said:


> Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised.



That is literally the definition of hate speech:



The Goddamn Dictionary(.com) said:


> speech disparaging a racial, sexual, or ethnic group or a member of such a group


----------



## Chokey Chicken

molsoncanadian said:


> WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.
> 
> Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.



Yeah, and why should I help make the guys life easier by giving him my money, when people like him are directly responsible for making an important part of my life very difficult? Why can't you understand that he's free to state his point, but so is everyone else? He's allowed to not like gays, just as people who support gays are free to support him or not, which is what everyone is doing.


----------



## ItWillDo

asher said:


> Most of the language on this forum has been more civil than wishing him to die in a fire. I think you'd see a lot of us expressing that those responses are also wrong and not called for.
> 
> Also, I'm willing to bet you're completely wrong.



I hope you do realize this forum is an exception and only marks up a meager percentage of the community that came into contact with this. If you took a glance at the some of the original Facebook-posts than it might change your mind. 

I even remember someone in this thread posting he wished that 'Vik would trip and land into a gay guy's asshole'. I don't even know who this is most degrading to.


----------



## Necris

molsoncanadian said:


> WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.
> 
> Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.




I am entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent towards his opinion. I'm entitled to voice my opinion about his opinion. I've chosen not to ignore. So have many other people.

Maybe you should "be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go" if you don't like that some people do care.


----------



## asher

ItWillDo said:


> I hope you do realize this forum is an exception and only marks up a meager percentage of the community that came into contact with this. If you took a glance at the some of the original Facebook-posts than it might change your mind.
> 
> I even remember someone on this page posting he wished that 'Vik would trip and land into a gay guy's asshole'. I don't even know who this is most degrading to.



Sure. But you're arguing with us, not them here 

And just because people are taking the responses too far _doesn't invalidate the core position's that Vik's comments are wrong_.


----------



## molsoncanadian

asher said:


> People who actually give a damn about how other people are treated.


 
Again, I am not by ANY means trying to defend him, I really need to stress that. I dont like what he said either. And I agree it's disheartning that he has those views. However, I'm not personally going to say "HEY, you dont think the way I do? You dont have the same views? HEY EVERYBODY, VIK DOESNT LIKE GAY PEOPLE. OMG CALL METALSUCKS.NET FOR AN INTERVIEW!!! THIS IS SOME NEWS!!!!!


----------



## fps

It's not like that, dissenters. It's not just "everyone has their opinion, they state them, and that's that." Some people care about what people have to say, and about issues, and about making the world better by showing this kinda crap just is NOT going to be put up with. If you're not looking to have a sexual relationship with someone, then why on earth is their sexuality an issue? Exactly.


----------



## Electric Wizard

molsoncanadian said:


> I just have an issue with all the "respect" people give Nolly and Bulb, when really it just shows how juvenile the both of you really are. I can always understand people bringing finish flaws to light, and keeping tabs on respectable luthiers ect, however, to drop an endorsement as a result of someones ideals? He simply doesnt have the same view as you.


I was going to stay out of the Vik fracas entirely but, welp...

That is the dumbest shit I have ever heard. 

Misha and Adam were nothing but civil and tasteful in their approach to the situation. Their messages were professional and frank, and I _really_ can't see how you could argue otherwise.

Your argument that they are taking food out of Vik's kids' mouths works the other way. As endorsees, they are representing Vik's brand, and standing by while Vik hates on gay people can be very easily taken as a tacit approval. It's in their interest economically to distance themselves, let alone the moral issues. Vik is doing the same damage to them as your logic says they've done to him.

I don't see why an endorser needs any reason to stop being a spokesperson. They're lending their name to something, and they're entitled to choose to stop. It's Vik's responsibility to pay the bills, not Misha or Nolly's to ensure that he can. If Nike went under for some scandal, you wouldn't blame Michael Jordan...

At any rate, I'm sure I've been ninja'd a bunch of times over by now. Couldn't resist though.


----------



## stevexc

molsoncanadian said:


> Again, I am not by ANY means trying to defend him, I really need to stress that. I dont like what he said either. And I agree it's disheartning that he has those views. However, I'm not personally going to say "HEY, you dont think the way I do? You dont have the same views? HEY EVERYBODY, VIK DOESNT LIKE GAY PEOPLE. OMG CALL METALSUCKS.NET FOR AN INTERVIEW!!! THIS IS SOME NEWS!!!!!



And of course, I assume you hold the same position regarding the Donald Sterling news coverage?


----------



## Winspear

As they say - "If you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all". It really is _that_ simple. _Especially_ if you are running a business


----------



## ForThisGift

molsoncanadian said:


> In closing I have to reiterate that I certainly dont respect the way Vik went about this at all, however, he is simply stating his opinion. Some people like red paint, others like blue. If more people shared Vik's opinion this would never have blown up the way it did. Something to think about.
> 
> Just my .02



Well no offense, but your .02 is falling a bit below market value. The spreading of intolerance being equated to a preference of color is about the worst distortion of logical thinking I have seen in this entire thread. 

His opinion is unpopular to say the least... But if it were just that, an opinion, it would be one thing. But he's not discussing what color to paint his living room, he's helping to perpetuate hatred of a group of people that he doesn't "judge" or "hate," but is still somehow able to "disapprove" of and not "like."

If you are still trying to defend someone who has put such solid work into ruining their own public image by revealing their HATEFUL beliefs then you have simply missed the core elements of this debate. Sorry you couldn't keep up, but you should probably just sit this one out. 

I don't really want to go into too much detail as to why Bulb and Nolly did the right thing in making sure that they were no longer associated with someone who holds beliefs that are clearly so contrary to their own. They are public figures at this point, with fans that know they were involved with Vik. While I don't fully agree, inaction (or the perception of inaction if they were to privately terminate any and all partnerships/obligations) on their part could have been viewed as at best apathy and at worst compliance. 

Kudos to them for using their platforms to take a stand on the issue. 

Here is your .02 back bruh...


----------



## ItWillDo

asher said:


> Sure. But you're arguing with us, not them here
> 
> And just because people are taking the responses too far _doesn't invalidate the core position's that Vik's comments are wrong_.



I've never stated to only be talking about SSO which is clear from my previous statements; This forum is an exception. And to summarize the point I've tried making before, and poor molsoncanadian is trying to make as well, please allow me to quote Alain de Botton: 



> Every society has notions of what one should believe, how one should behave, and how one should look like in order to avoid unpopularity.
> 
> These social conventions are formulated in legal codes and religious doctrines, but also in a vast body of social judgements which we take for granted, which dictates what we wear, who we respect, how we lead our lives, and how we should look. *We refrain from questioning the status quo, because we associate what is popular with what is right.*



Every society has it's own ideas/beliefs which they consider to be 'right'. It's only through open discussion in a rational way that all involved parties might come to a resolution; not through harassment, prosecution, shaming and scapegoating.


----------



## molsoncanadian

Electric Wizard said:


> I was going to stay out of the Vik fracas entirely but, welp...
> 
> That is the dumbest shit I have ever heard.
> 
> Misha and Adam were nothing but civil and tasteful in their approach to the situation. Their messages were professional and frank, and I _really_ can't see how you could argue otherwise.
> 
> Your argument that they are taking food out of Vik's kids' mouths works the other way. As endorsees, they are representing Vik's brand, and standing by while Vik hates on gay people can be very easily taken as a tacit approval. It's in their interest economically to distance themselves, let alone the moral issues. Vik is doing the same damage to them as your logic says they've done to him.
> 
> I don't see why an endorser needs any reason to stop being a spokesperson. They're lending their name to something, and they're entitled to chose to stop. It's Vik's responsibility to pay the bills, not Misha or Nolly's to ensure that he can. If Nike went under for some scandal, you wouldn't blame Michael Jordan...
> 
> At any rate, I'm sure I've been ninja'd a bunch of times over by now. Couldn't resist though.


 
That's a sound a respectable point. However, they could have just dropped the endorsement. There was no need to make a huge wave about it. I respect all opinions (Or I try to understand them anyways) and Vik doesnt like homosexuality. I am older myself and I understand that we aren't completely out of that demographic that is polarized by the gay movement. People might disagree with homosexuality, and thats fine. Not everyone is on board with the idea. When people say they have issues with it, I dont grab a loud speaker and stand on the corner of city hall and dispense my distaste for said person. I feel that, in a way is what happened.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

molsoncanadian said:


> Again, I am not by ANY means trying to defend him, I really need to stress that. I dont like what he said either. And I agree it's disheartning that he has those views. However, I'm not personally going to say "HEY, you dont think the way I do? You dont have the same views? HEY EVERYBODY, VIK DOESNT LIKE GAY PEOPLE. OMG CALL METALSUCKS.NET FOR AN INTERVIEW!!! THIS IS SOME NEWS!!!!!


But that's how *you* would react not everyone else. Most of us have chosen to exercise our right to free speech and voice our opinion on what he said. I'm not sure what your trying to get across other than how *you* think everyone should react to what he said. To extinguish (or largely extinguish) idiotic views like this, voices need to be heard and show that we do not condone the hateful and ignorant views (Vik and many others) spew from their mouths.


----------



## asher

molsoncanadian said:


> Again, I am not by ANY means trying to defend him, I really need to stress that. I dont like what he said either. And I agree it's disheartning that he has those views. However, I'm not personally going to say "HEY, you dont think the way I do? You dont have the same views? HEY EVERYBODY, VIK DOESNT LIKE GAY PEOPLE. OMG CALL METALSUCKS.NET FOR AN INTERVIEW!!! THIS IS SOME NEWS!!!!!



Except what's going on is exactly how we shift conversation and over time shift thinking to be more accepting, understanding, and compassionate, when we demonstrate that _this shit is not okay_.


----------



## Necris

The reason metalsucks picked it up is likely because of Misha, Nolly and Per Nilssons involvement, Misha was a contributor to metalsucks at one point, he's in a metal band with Nolly. Per is a well known metal guitarist. 

Metalsucks reports on _metal related_ news, pageviews/ad revenue are a source of income for them. Of course they'll jump on this story, it's tied to metal and it's blowing up. Other metal sites have followed suit.

Unless you would like to try your hand at arguing he wasn't responsible for what he chose to post, it's Vik who is responsible for what he said and thus whatever consequences that arise, that includes internet backlash even if that backlash contains idiots. 

Plenty of us here have voiced our disapproval of those people who have essentially seen a chance to throw stones and taken it.


----------



## Winspear

molsoncanadian said:


> That's a sound a respectable point. However, they could have just dropped the endorsement. There was no need to make a huge wave about it.



The wave was only huge because they are popular. They made very reasonable, professional statements. 
If they had 'just dropped the endorsement' - how would anyone know? 
I myself said in another thread that I had been wondering for months how Nolly felt about the already ongoing bad business practice and unprofessional behavior being shown by ViK. If a statement was not put out - how would I (or anyone else) have any idea what his feelings are? I would have been left wondering "Is he in favour of _this_, too?"


----------



## Edika

As someone who wouldn't be able to afford his guitars when they were more reasonably priced I can't say he would have my business but I would have liked to think that at some point I could be able to have that luxury. As someone that show an unexplained jump in price when there was a modicum of success to the brand I saw that dream slip away even further. As someone seeing the guy bypass people that paid in full to do runs, guitars in a week and focus his energy to other things than delivering to customers I started not quite feeling it anymore (not taking into account the health issues, that's another story). As someone that show him throw hissy fits over things he himself was multiple times guilty off, seeing him having his ego bloated and and cancelling orders because the clients dared complain about him not working on the instruments that are supposed to be his business I started to really have a sour taste in my mouth and thought if I am going to save money for a dream guitar I sure as well wouldn't want it to be saturated by dickishness however well made it is. As a cherry to this whole shit pie he proved what a dick he really is by his comments.

A person that clearly has no respect for his fellow man is destined to show it at some point. He is talented but not irreplacable and people don't usually like to be treated like shit when they are paying you loads of money. In the end he will not be the first person that started a business venture and failed and he has no one to blaim than himself. He will survive, people like him always do. 

Whether the Periphery guys are immature or not for stating their opinions, I will not comment that they believe what they say as it is obvious they do. Any person with a modicum of intelligence would want to wash away any association with something as toxic as Vik guitars at the moment. They at least seem to understand the business side of the music industry, their place in it, how fragile reputation is as well as the fact that they are one of the bands that became famous from social media. They understand what it means to turn your hobby to a profession and would like to keep doing that. 

So not only they are decent guys, but are mature and intelligent enough to know how to handle the situation.


----------



## Ibanezsam4

stevexc said:


> And of course, I assume you hold the same position regarding the Donald Sterling news coverage?



Sterling was known to have those viewpoints for three decades and the LA, sports, and national media did nothing to bring them to light because nobody cared about the sucky clippers... until they started winning. 

the difference here is sterling said what he wanted to say during a private conversation and he was unknowingly taped; the man was a business man and had he known he was being taped probably would've kept it to himself. Vik put his thoughts out on social media. 

the only reason this is a big deal is because he is a damn good builder.


----------



## Electric Wizard

molsoncanadian said:


> That's a sound a respectable point. However, they could have just dropped the endorsement. There was no need to make a huge wave about it. I respect all opinions (Or I try to understand them anyways) and Vik doesnt like homosexuality. I am older myself and I understand that we aren't completely out of that demographic that is polarized by the gay movement. People might disagree with homosexuality, and thats fine. Not everyone is on board with the idea. When people say they have issues with it, I dont grab a loud speaker and stand on the corner of city hall and dispense my distaste for said person. I feel that, in a way is what happened.


Having seen some of your other posts, I agree that people have turned this into much more of a fiasco than it might have been. I wouldn't pin that on either of them entirely though. I don't see much of a choice other than to make some sort of statement, and as seen in the other Vik thread, even after Nolly did, people still accused him of letting Vik get away with things. So to just quietly drop the endorsement would probably open them up to lots of accusations.

As for MetalSucks and every other website making a big fuss about it, yeah I find some of that a bit over the top. I mean I think it's great that the metal community is so impassioned about the issue, but I also wonder how many people on those sites had even heard of Vik beforehand.  After so much time spent on SSO, I can never tell if we're still just a weird minority or actually representative of popular opinion.


----------



## molsoncanadian

asher said:


> Except what's going on is exactly how we shift conversation and over time shift thinking to be more accepting, understanding, and compassionate, when we demonstrate that _this shit is not okay_.


 
I will make this my last post in this thread, as it seems some of my posts confused/poorly worded so on. I apologize to anyone I offended, and I agree 100% with the sentiments you express, I really do, it was my fault for not stressing that enough. I agree we should move forward in conversations that promote equality and understanding. I will leave it at that.

Cheers


----------



## Mik3D23

molsoncanadian said:


> People might disagree with homosexuality, and thats fine. Not everyone is on board with the idea. When people say they have issues with it, I dont grab a loud speaker and stand on the corner of city hall and dispense my distaste for said person. I feel that, in a way is what happened.



What is there to disagree with about homosexuality? Since you like color analogies; that's like someone saying they disagree with my liking of the color blue. And if that's not absurd enough, they would go out and be an outspoken opponent of my said fondness of the color blue. And even start committing hate crimes against fellow blue-likers.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Yeah, it's sort of one of those things that if you don't like it, don't partake in it. If you don't partake in it, it has zero effect on your life.


----------



## molsoncanadian

Chokey Chicken said:


> Yeah, it's sort of one of those things that if you don't like it, don't partake in it. If you don't partake in it, it has zero effect on your life.


 
I have returned momentarily!

Chokey Chicken basically summed up my points. Everyone berated my opinions to the likes of "we need to make big deals about this stuff so that the movement gets traction!" "I care about people, so this is why I said what I did" Well, I emplore you to fly out to see Vik. He has an opinion on something that I would be willing to bet my life savings, will not be changed through any amount of conversation/action.

Furthermore, respect for the gay community should come through positive forms, not by publicly scolding opposing opinions. You dont change opinions by trashing the way other people think, it comes from conversation, listening, a little open mindedness. Not gathering SSO with pitch forks and hunting down Vik.

But once again, I have to apologize if I came across as defending Vik. That was NEVER my intention. I just read this whole thing and thought to myself "honestly guys?" That and all of the "I hope your son is gay." "Go fall in a butthole." is just sad to read.


----------



## asher

molsoncanadian said:


> I have returned momentarily!
> 
> Chokey Chicken basically summed up my points. Everyone berated my opinions to the likes of "we need to make big deals about this stuff so that the movement gets traction!" "I care about people, so this is why I said what I did" Well, I emplore you to fly out to see Vik. He has an opinion on something that I would be willing to bet my life savings, will not be changed through any amount of conversation/action.



There's likely very little that can be done to change his mind, but it was aimed not at him, but at a generalized people-who-see-it.



> Furthermore, respect for the gay community should come through positive forms, not by publicly scolding opposing opinions. You dont change opinions by trashing the way other people think, it comes from conversation, listening, a little open mindedness. Not gathering SSO with pitch forks and hunting down Vik.



If we can discard the extra color commentary (see below), there's a problem here: at the source, this is not a two-way discussion. It is not a debate in good faith; the opposing party is not willing to engage at all, so there is very little to engage *with*. 

Further: we know these things are hateful, hurtful, etc, what do we gain from an open mind to that? Remove emotion, and they logically fall over with a stiff breeze. There is no reason not to say the emperor is naked. I'm also going to steal an awesome quote from Grand Moff Tim's signature:

"We must not indulge in unfavorable views of mankind, since by doing it we make bad men believe they are no worse than others, and we teach the good that they are good in vain." - Walter Winchell



> But once again, I have to apologize if I came across as defending Vik. That was NEVER my intention. I just read this whole thing and thought to myself "honestly guys?" That and all of the "I hope your son is gay." "Go fall in a butthole." is just sad to read.



I agree, I don't like reading that stuff either  I think your first post just read like you were coming out swinging and you hadn't quite articulated what you meant well yet. I definitely understand, I just disagree


----------



## molsoncanadian

asher said:


> There's likely very little that can be done to change his mind, but it was aimed not at him, but at a generalized people-who-see-it.
> 
> 
> 
> If we can discard the extra color commentary (see below), there's a problem here: at the source, *this is not a two-way discussion. It is not a debate in good faith; the opposing party is not willing to engage at all, so there is very little to engage *with*. *
> 
> Further: we know these things are hateful, hurtful, etc, what do we gain from an open mind to that? Remove emotion, and they logically fall over with a stiff breeze. There is no reason not to say the emperor is naked. I'm also going to steal an awesome quote from Grand Moff Tim's signature:
> 
> "We must not indulge in unfavorable views of mankind, since by doing it we make bad men believe they are no worse than others, and we teach the good that they are good in vain." - Walter Winchell
> 
> 
> 
> I agree, I don't like reading that stuff either  I think your first post just read like you were coming out swinging and you hadn't quite articulated what you meant well yet. I definitely understand, I just disagree


 
Yes, I certainly may have articulated my thought's poorly, however I think your addition further proves my point.

*this is not a two-way discussion. It is not a debate in good faith; the opposing party is not willing to engage at all, so there is very little to engage *with*. *

To which I will add, this is basically what I have been trying to say. Vik is a gone-er. There is no changing that mans mind. He is obviously stubborn with his ideals, and people arguing just gives him validation. Im sure he loved the drama.

I think this was one of those "let sleeping dog's sleep." Let him destroy his own reputation. Dont soil yours with the likes of his. The whole Bulb, Nolly thing just adds more fuel to the fire. Just drop the endorsements, that alone is acknowledgement that his services werent up to par.

And while we might disagree on certain things, I truly do respect the opinions of others, I just disagree as well.


----------



## Alberto7

While I agree that ViK is... well... it's already been said, I think that it shouldn't be only his anti-LGBT comments that should be brought to light, but also the way he has treated his customers (and even non-customers), which I find just as abhorrent. His anti-gay comments were, in my opinion, the icing on the cake, really. I wish that both things would make it into the news so that everybody would get a glimpse of who this guy actually is.


----------



## Electric Wizard

molsoncanadian said:


> "Go fall in a butthole."









I'm sorry...


----------



## asher

Electric Wizard said:


> I'm sorry...



I really can't get into the "I hope you have a gay kid!" comment in *any* way, but this one secretly makes my inner 8 year old happy


----------



## tacotiklah

I've been hesitant to really say anything on this as I wanted to see how people would react first. I remember the last time I said something regarding Vik's propensity for using his business to spout hateful things, I got slagged for it pretty hard. Tbvh, at first I thought the same thing would happen if I spoke on this too soon. I have to say though, I'm really proud of the stance the majority of both this forum and the metal community in general have taken against the anti-gay remarks that were made. You guys are awesome and it means a lot to LGBT forumers like myself.

I also would like to point out to those that have a more "live and let live" attitude a very important thing. It is said that we must all fear evil men. But there is a worse kind of evil and it is far more damaging. That evil is the apathy of good men. Those that actively work against a group of people are banking on your apathy so that they can continue to do their hateful work without reproach. If you feel that it is none of your concern when others suffer, that says more about you than those that are causing said suffering. 

I also want to implore to other builders on here, please learn from these companies that are doing crazy stuff. The things they are doing are causing a growing distrust in the custom shop market. It's a LOT to ask of a customer to give you large sums of money up front in the hopes that you'll eventually deliver the product of the quality that you claim and in the timetable that you claim. The kind of trust being given to you guys is more than I would give to even some members of my own family. I'm honestly very saddened to see more and more luthiers circling the drain, and it really bothers me to see so many people invest hard earned money into bad luthiers that will take their money and run, go WAY over the estimated build and shipping time, and/or deliver a substandard product. It has bothered me to the point that I once even made the trip to Hesperia to find out what was going on and to see what I could do to help people get their guitars.
Please always have the utmost respect for every customer that places an order, and therefore, the highest level of trust in and with your company. Every customer is what builds your business and allows it to prosper. It should not matter their race, gender, creed, nationality, orientation, physical and/or mental disability. What should matter is that they believe in the work you do so strongly that they will throw money at you and wait long periods of time for that fine craftsmanship that you have staked your very livelihoods on.

In short, don't be a Vik.


----------



## Jonathan20022

molsoncanadian said:


> If I have read this correctly, than yes. You can say, "I dont like him, he's a dumbass." However, posting a facebook status, and making waves on social media about it, makes you the dumbass IMO. Bulb and Nolly are well aware of how their words can affect, and they chose to go about this in the un-classiest matter possible IMO. Just drop your endorsement and leave Vik alone. We don't need your nobel peace prize speech on why you dont like how he thinks. I can't help but wonder if this would have gotten all swept under the rug if it wasnt for those 2, which is probably the way it should have gone.
> 
> At the heart of this all, I just hate that Vik's income may/will be affected by all of this. The guy is a luthier, not a fvcking poet. He makes what I assume to be (I dont have any experience) high quality guitars, and has probably spent alot of hard work and money/sacrifice getting to where he is. And 2 prepubscent public figures could effectively cripple his market. That is what irks me. You endorse his guitar, not his opinions.



Well yes, that does make him a dumbass considering he made a controversial statement just like you said. And yes Misha and Nolly do both know how influential they are, I'm sure staying silent and not saying anything would have been better right? If I were them I'd have done the same thing, publicly cut ties because in today's world, most of the public simply can't digest information and think about it logically.

Many people would have basically read into it like this, "Vik made a homophobic statement, and Nolly endorses his product and business, does he also agree with these ideals?". 

So it only makes sense to detach yourself from a situation, various musicians were also asked about their stance on Gay Rights and Same Sex Marriages after this blew up. People eat this stuff up and look for someone else to put under scrutiny because many people are just headline readers.

And on the subject of just dropping their endorsements and moving along...



Misha M. said:


> I paid for the balance of the guitar in full in January with the promise that the guitar would be ready by NAMM. It wasn't. When I asked for an update as to when my guitar would be sent out earlier today, Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints. I told him that my morals and ethics are worth more than a guitar.



Vik has Misha's funds already pocketed, and in his words he basically said that if Misha didn't agree with Vik's ideals he would not be receiving something he paid for. That's ....ed up in and of itself and for a guy to demand that of an artist, it should be made public. 

HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION:
Imagine going to buy yourself a nice car from a gentlemen that looks a normal guy. And after paying, and you go to collect your car, you're only allowed to do so if you agree and adopt Neo-Nazi ideals and beliefs.

That's horrid and the person should be outed for doing so, same with any racists, homophobes, and criminals that choose to make their customer base take their opinions forcibly. Which is what he's doing to his artists, can you imagine the treatment customers are getting? I do hope his business collapses, because even before the homophobia his customer service and actions should have condemned him enough. But customers apparently have a high tolerance for pain and suffering before they actually do anything about it.

EDIT: This thread moves fast haha, I saw this was already addressed I'm just late.


----------



## fps

Vik isn't the issue, Vik is a closed-minded little bigot. The issue is sending a message out to everyone else whose minds may not be made up on how they think about the issue and how they view the world. It's about making people who are gay and worry about being abused for that feel a little less alone, and about making people who use homophobic language casually without thinking about its effects consider their viewpoints and maybe change them. This is a perfect way to draw attention to the issue and show support for the right side. That being the side who don't believe in making other people's lives more difficult simply because of their sexuality.


----------



## narad

Jonathan20022 said:


> Vik has Misha's funds already pocketed, and in his words he basically said that if Misha didn't agree with Vik's ideals he would not be receiving something he paid for. That's ....ed up in and of itself and for a guy to demand that of an artist, it should be made public.



I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week. Do you have my back, or do I have your guitar?"

This is pretty standard: give a guy a discounted guitar, expect that he plugs it on every guitar forum and says how great it is. That's the price of the discount. It's a business transaction. And hmm...where have I seen gear plugged all over the internet before? It's a shame people aren't required to post whether they paid full price in their NGDs, but you should at least be wise to the fact that it happens -- that's guitar forums and marketing 101 type of stuff.


----------



## stevexc

narad said:


> I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week. Do you have my back, or do I have your guitar?"



I dunno, this kind of implies that it may actually have been something along those lines:



Misha said:


> When I asked for an update as to when my guitar would be sent out earlier today, Vik made it clear that he would not send me the guitar if I did not agree with and support his viewpoints.



But that's without seeing the original text. But I follow you in regards to the rest of the post.


----------



## Promit

fps said:


> Vik isn't the issue, Vik is a closed-minded little bigot. The issue is sending a message out to everyone else whose minds may not be made up on how they think about the issue and how they view the world. It's about making people who are gay and worry about being abused for that feel a little less alone, and about making people who use homophobic language casually without thinking about its effects consider their viewpoints and maybe change them. This is a perfect way to draw attention to the issue and show support for the right side. That being the side who don't believe in making other people's lives more difficult simply because of their sexuality.


This is where I sit as well. This isn't a live-and-let-live about opinions. People's lives get destroyed as long as Vik's brand of speech is considered socially acceptable. Creating consequences for that is part of the goal.


----------



## Jonathan20022

narad said:


> I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week. Do you have my back, or do I have your guitar?"
> 
> This is pretty standard: give a guy a discounted guitar, expect that he plugs it on every guitar forum and says how great it is. That's the price of the discount. It's a business transaction. And hmm...where have I seen gear plugged all over the internet before? It's a shame people aren't required to post whether they paid full price in their NGDs, but you should at least be wise to the fact that it happens -- that's guitar forums and marketing 101 type of stuff.



It does seem a little ridiculous to expect that of his customers, and if it was just something lost in translation then I just took it for what it said. But I still think those guys have every right to say what they did, I don't think any of it was done unprofessionally but rather it was done very honestly.

I do agree that at the very least it should be noted whether or not the guitar being showcased was something traded or bought for a discount in exchange for exposure. But it does happen quite often sadly, I noticed it when I was a lot younger in the game industry that websites were basically paid to give certain games their scores. Making any review hard to believe or trust, but of course it isn't mandatory it's better to at least know that it does happen.


----------



## JohnIce

All this Devil's Advocate reasoning&#8230; I was taught in school that ignoring bullying was just as bad as being the bully. We were taught as students to speak up against it and not let it happen. No one ever called bullying "a different opinion", it was called bullying and it was wrong, end of story.

Don't see how adults picking on gays is "opinion" but 10-year olds picking on the fat kid is not. Looks the fvcking same to me, dude.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

molsoncanadian said:


> I have returned momentarily!
> 
> Chokey Chicken basically summed up my points. Everyone berated my opinions to the likes of "we need to make big deals about this stuff so that the movement gets traction!" "I care about people, so this is why I said what I did" Well, I emplore you to fly out to see Vik. He has an opinion on something that I would be willing to bet my life savings, will not be changed through any amount of conversation/action.



Don't get me wrong, hating someone because they're doing something that has zero effect on you is stupid. (Ie: hating gays.) But, like Asher said, it's not a two way street. If someone has their life interfered with in a negative way because they're doing something that has no effect on anyone else, it is not at all out of line to become angry and boycott stuff. 

He has a hurtful point of view that won't change, sure, but boycotting stuff like this cripples the influence someone like him has. Staying quiet about it just lets it fester, and the chances are more likely that people will buy into it.


----------



## bhakan

Exivious being awesome


----------



## WildBroskiAppears

Oh boy...






edit: I find it funny that he says "one well-known person" at first and then straight name drops him at the end


----------



## Rev2010

Boy, been following this thread all day. I'll say this first, I have gay friends, one of which was my best friend for a long time. I think gays should have equal marriage rights and be respected because why not? They aren't affecting my life in a single negative way! Matter of fact, I've found most to be of the stereotypically smart, clean, well mannered type. I actually really like gays. And they are just so much fun to hang with, they really are. So full of life and joy. But some of the reaction I would expect for someone that is more actively anti-gay. I've read bullying, hate, all sorts of stuff but I only seem to see three comments from Vik. That first obscure Facebook post, his followup FB post, and that BS attempt at some for of non-apology. But how is Vik bullying guys if this is the first time we're finding out he doesn't care for gays? I'm sure if he were hate mongering we would've heard more and worse by now no? 

Again, I in NO way condone such a mentality, but it sounds like people want to see his house and shop burnt to the ground. Anywho, his business is likely ruined and I couldn't care, actually reading some of his other history with his business I'm kinda happy he has to go through this as it seems he's an all around bad person. I just can't get with the accusations of all his hate mongering bigotry without seeing something a bit more vile being spewed from him. To me his comments so far just seem like a closed minded old school fool that hasn't learned better from life experiences. Educating him would probably do better than lynching him. 


Rev.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Rev2010 said:


> Boy, been following this thread all day. I'll say this first, I have gay friends, one of which was my best friend for a long time. I think gays should have equal marriage rights and be respected because why not? They aren't affecting my life in a single negative way! Matter of fact, I've found most to be of the stereotypically smart, clean, well mannered type. I actually really like gays. And they are just so much fun to hang with, they really are. So full of life and joy. But some of the reaction I would expect for someone that is more actively anti-gay. I've read bullying, hate, all sorts of stuff but I only seem to see three comments from Vik. That first obscure Facebook post, his followup FB post, and that BS attempt at some for of non-apology. But how is Vik bullying guys if this is the first time we're finding out he doesn't care for gays? I'm sure if he were hate mongering we would've heard more and worse by now no?
> 
> Again, I in NO way condone such a mentality, but it sounds like people want to see his house and shop burnt to the ground. Anywho, his business is likely ruined and I couldn't care, actually reading some of his other history with his business I'm kinda happy he has to go through this as it seems he's an all around bad person. I just can't get with the accusations of all his hate mongering bigotry without seeing something a bit more vile being spewed from him. To me his comments so far just seem like a closed minded old school fool that hasn't learned better from life experiences. Educating him would probably do better than lynching him.
> 
> 
> Rev.



I actually haven't bothered going to his Facebook page, and I wouldn't dream of actually threatening him. He is a human being, and violence of any sort is bad. At the same time, I'm just glad it blew up like it did so people know what kind of person they're giving their money to. Personally, I'd hate myself if I found out that I gave a large sum of money to someone who would treat me like trash if they knew me for me. 

I don't condone or support violence, but I do support throwing a stink and pulling funding.

Edit: not saying you're ragging on me specifically. I know you're not.


----------



## Rev2010

Oh I definitely agree it's good it's been brought to light so people can be aware who they're dealing with. And I'm glad he now has to contend with this. Was just referring to the statements that he's a hate mongering, bullying, bigot just based off of what I've read so far. I too haven't gone to his page nor seen anything further than the 3 or so posts from him I mentioned. Maybe there even was more I missed. 


Rev.


----------



## Promit

Rev2010 said:


> Boy, been following this thread all day. I'll say this first, I have gay friends, one of which was my best friend for a long time. I think gays should have equal marriage rights and be respected because why not? They aren't affecting my life in a single negative way! Matter of fact, I've found most to be of the stereotypically smart, clean, well mannered type. I actually really like gays. And they are just so much fun to hang with, they really are. So full of life and joy. But some of the reaction I would expect for someone that is more actively anti-gay. I've read bullying, hate, all sorts of stuff but I only seem to see three comments from Vik. That first obscure Facebook post, his followup FB post, and that BS attempt at some for of non-apology. But how is Vik bullying guys if this is the first time we're finding out he doesn't care for gays? I'm sure if he were hate mongering we would've heard more and worse by now no?
> 
> Again, I in NO way condone such a mentality, but it sounds like people want to see his house and shop burnt to the ground. Anywho, his business is likely ruined and I couldn't care, actually reading some of his other history with his business I'm kinda happy he has to go through this as it seems he's an all around bad person. I just can't get with the accusations of all his hate mongering bigotry without seeing something a bit more vile being spewed from him. To me his comments so far just seem like a closed minded old school fool that hasn't learned better from life experiences. Educating him would probably do better than lynching him.





Rev2010 said:


> Oh I definitely agree it's good it's been brought to light so people can be aware who they're dealing with. And I'm glad he now has to contend with this. Was just referring to the statements that he's a hate mongering, bullying, bigot just based off of what I've read so far. I too haven't gone to his page nor seen anything further than the 3 or so posts from him I mentioned. Maybe there even was more I missed.


Okay, let's rewind here for a second, because I think we've forgotten some very important context in 24 hours.

Vik's original comment was NOT a generic, thrown in the wind random thought. It wasn't an observation in response to a question. It wasn't in any way prompted. What Vik did, right up front, _without reason or provocation_, was to backhandedly attack a well known musician on the day he decided to publicly come out, which is itself a significant moment for many homosexual people.

That's not expressing an opinion. That's NOT his beliefs. This asshole came out and attacked a specific person for their sexual orientation. That's fvcking hate speech, harassment, abuse, whatever you want to call it. It isn't better that he did it in an oddball circuitous way that included headless guitars. It isn't better that it's just his Christian belief or that's how he was raised. It doesn't matter that Paul himself is not letting himself be affected by it.

Vik went after a specific person for being gay. Unprovoked. He deserves NO consideration. His beliefs deserve NO consideration. His comments after the fact deserve NO consideration for as long as they don't include a flat out apology for going after somebody, which they obviously never will. So let's absolutely not pretend that he's being victimized for his quiet beliefs. That's bullshit. He's being attacked for going on the OFFENSIVE - in every sense of the word.


----------



## Zalbu

WildBroskiAppears said:


> Oh boy...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> edit: I find it funny that he says "one well-known person" at first and then straight name drops him at the end


He doesn't even try to disprove what Misha said, smells fishy to me.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

I doubt much more was said, but it's good to adopt a zero tolerance kinda thing when it comes to hate speech. Even a not-so-friendly offhand racial remark (or in this case homophobic) should be treated with seriousness. It might be easier for some to overlook, but people like Vik have a great deal of control over my life. Nothing he personally does will ever effect me, but he might to other lgbt folks where he lives. If I can take even a small amount of control away from him and make somebody's life even a tiny bit better because of that, I'll gladly do it, provided I don't compromise my morals in the process. 

In this day and age, it really does pay to be active in these situations. The most a lot of us can do is withdraw funding in hopes of decreasing his voice's reach. 

In all honesty, I don't actually hate him. He is a product of his environment, and that is unfortunately overwhelmingly anti-gay. Still, it'd be criminal to not at least try to do something, and I did all that I could. I pulled my cash from him, and will gladly point people in a different, friendlier, direction if I'm ever asked for advice on which custom shop to go. Maybe that is too much, but I feel it is all most of us can do, since most of us will never be personally effected by anything he does. I'd articulate myself a little better if I weren't typing this up on a phone, so I'll just stop here before I talk in more circles.


----------



## Promit

Chokey Chicken said:


> Still, it'd be criminal to not at least try to do something, and I did all that I could. I pulled my cash from him, and will gladly point people in a different, friendlier, direction if I'm ever asked for advice on which custom shop to go.


 Just for curiosity's sake, did you actually cancel an existing order with him?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Promit said:


> Just for curiosity's sake, did you actually cancel an existing order with him?



I should have said I decided not to go with Vik, but a friend of mine is in the process of canceling.


----------



## Rev2010

Promit said:


> So let's absolutely not pretend that he's being victimized for his quiet beliefs. That's bullshit.



Victimized? Where the hell did I say he was being victimized? Nowhere did I say that. See your reaction to my post is an example of how aggressively reactive some are being. Let me ask this... everyone so far is saying people being gay doesn't affect his life at all so why should he care? And I 100% agree with those sentiments. But how does his Facebook post affect the gay community in a negative way? I don't think anyone's life is going to be negatively changed by it, quite the contrary as it seems most are banding together in support of the LBGT community.

Anyhow, don't know why you seem irked by my post. As I said, I'm 100% fully in support of the LGBT community. I'm only pointing out the words people using words people are using, based only on the 3 or so posts from him that I've read, that seem a bit overexcessive. In what way is he now *bullying* gay people? What has he done to show that he's an active hate monger? And more so, if he were hate mongering why did we only find out *yesterday*. That is my point. Again, I'm *glad* he now has to deal with this and I'm glad with the ways in which it will affect him. I'm just saying let's not jump to making him equal to violent Neo-Nazi gay attackers just based on those few things he said. That's all. I didn't say people shouldn't react or feel the way they do, sure they should! I'm just saying let's keep the name calling a bit more accurate. He's an ignorant homophobe and now he will have to content with the result of making it known.


Rev.


----------



## Promit

Rev2010 said:


> Victimized? Where the hell did I say he was being victimized? Nowhere did I say that. See your reaction to my post is an example of how aggressively reactive some are being.


That was not my intent and I'm not irked by your post. I just found it a useful springboard into addressing some of the defenses that have been made over the course of both threads. I should have been more clear.


----------



## 7stg

This is a serious issue and not to be taken lightly. The hate expressed in words all to often escalates into acts of violence. These attacks against the LGBT community are similar to the abuses that were faced by racial minority groups from often the same hate groups.



There are regular news stories documenting the violence committed against those in the LGBT community.
Philly Man Allegedly Beaten to Death After Using Grindr :: EDGE on the Net
US: Alabama woman charged with murder of sons gay lover · PinkNews.co.uk
Five Arrested In Williamsburg Beating Of Gay Black Man


For vik to claim he is a christian looks a lot like this. Vik Drama: Round 3 - post #297





We should all be well aware of the hate crimes that the klan has committed against minorities for the last several centuries which mirror what is faced by the LGBT community.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Rev2010 said:


> Victimized? Where the hell did I say he was being victimized? Nowhere did I say that. See your reaction to my post is an example of how aggressively reactive some are being. Let me ask this... everyone so far is saying people being gay doesn't affect his life at all so why should he care? And I 100% agree with those sentiments. But how does his Facebook post affect the gay community in a negative way? I don't think anyone's life is going to be negatively changed by it, quite the contrary as it seems most are banding together in support of the LBGT community.
> 
> Anyhow, don't know why you seem irked by my post. As I said, I'm 100% fully in support of the LGBT community. I'm only pointing out people using words to describe him, based only on the 3 or so posts from him that I've read, that seem a bit overexcessive. In what way is he now *bullying* gay people? What has he done to show that he's an active hate monger? And more so, if he were hate mongering why did we only find out *yesterday*. That is my point. Again, I'm *glad* he now has to deal with this and I'm glad with the ways in which it will affect him. I'm just saying let's not jump to making him equal to violent Neo-Nazi gay attackers just based on those few things he said. That's all. I didn't say people shouldn't react or feel the way they do, sure they should! I'm just saying let's keep the name calling to a bit more accurate. He's an ignorant homophobe and now he will have to content with the result of making it known.
> 
> 
> Rev.



You see, if you just let people like this keep spewing shit, then it just perpetuates hate. How he treats gays doesn't effect me personally, but it might effect someone else. Just because he's not effecting me, doesn't mean he's effecting nobody. By perpetuating the hate, he's indirectly effecting me as well. Ignoring it just normalizes it. As a supporter of lgbt, it would be in the interest of your allies that punks like him aren't allowed to reach the masses. We limit his influence by taking his platform away the best we can. Having a hateful train of thought is dangerous enough without 15k people following you. If you can influence those 15k people to also think it's acceptable to be hateful, then that is not a good thing. Everyone needs to try to combat his influence with positive influence.


----------



## tacotiklah

^^I'll double down on that and add this:
Bringing Health Information to the Community (BHIC) » Blog Archive » Transgender Suicide Rates Highlight Injustices


That's right, 90% of transgender people face discriminatory practices while on the job and 41% have attempted suicide because of bullying and/or harassment. This isn't some made up bullshit, but cold hard facts as presented by medical professionals. These statistics are for the US only, I can only shudder to think of what LGBTs in other countries are going through. Putin-led Russia is promoting human rights abuses that are sickening, with many LGBT people being beaten, harassed, and even killed just for who they are. 

Another thing that people completely ignore:
Persecution of Homosexuals in the Third Reich

While there are no hard numbers (due to the fact that even after the holocaust, gay survivors were subjected to cruelty and therefore reluctant to come forward about their experiences), it is estimated that 150,000 LGBT people died in the holocaust. 

Point being, people just don't grasp the real reason why starting shit with the LGBT community can be very damaging. Good rule of thumb:
Be the kind of person that your grandchildren won't look at the floor in shame when they speak of you to others.


----------



## Rev2010

Chokey Chicken said:


> You see, if you just let people like this keep spewing shit, then it just perpetuates hate.



I agree, but his initial post was a vague obscure comment that most didn't pickup on until those better in the know pointed it out. He didn't post something ,for example, along the lines of the Westboro baptist chruch's hate mongering. Just saying some are reacting as aggressively as if he'd said something so outright vile like from the WBC.



Chokey Chicken said:


> Having a hateful train of thought is dangerous enough without 15k people following you. If you can influence those 15k people to also think it's acceptable to be hateful, then that is not a good thing.



Seems like he's not getting the support of those 15K followers, quite the contrary thankfully 



Chokey Chicken said:


> Everyone needs to try to combat his influence with positive influence.



Aaaand it looks like so far there's little positive influence being done to combat his ignorant way of thinking. So far it's aggressive reactions towards his intolerance/ignorance/etc. See I feel sadder for him having to live and think the way he does rather than outright anger. I save outright anger for those that harm gay people because they are gay. I don't stand for that shit at all, not one bit. Those videos posted, I can't watch that shit because it angers me so much I want to be there to fight back against those assholes. Anyhow, I don't think my point is getting across so I'll let it at this post. My point was only about the *labels* being assigned based on what I've read him say so far. He's wrong and ignorant, no doubt about that whatsoever. But I just have issue with people using terms like he's bullying and hate mongering based off what I've read and only having his views come to light now. Peace all 


Rev.


----------



## Necris

^ So what if he did?


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Rev2010 said:


> I agree, but his initial post was a vague obscure comment that most didn't pickup on until those better in the know pointed it out. He didn't post something ,for example, along the lines of the Westboro baptist chruch's hate mongering. Just saying some are reacting as aggressively as if he'd said something so outright vile like from the WBC.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like he's not getting the support of those 15K followers, quite the contrary thankfully
> 
> 
> 
> Aaaand it looks like so far there's little positive influence being done to combat his ignorant way of thinking. So far it's aggressive reactions towards his intolerance/ignorance/etc. See I feel sadder for him having to live and think the way he does rather than outright anger. I save outright anger for those that harm gay people because they are gay. I don't stand for that shit at all, not one bit. Those videos posted, I can't watch that shit because it angers me so much I want to be there to fight back against those assholes. Anyhow, I don't think my point is getting across so I'll let it at this post. My point was only about the *labels* being assigned based on what I've read him say so far. He's wrong and ignorant, no doubt about that whatsoever. But I just have issue with people using terms like he's bullying and hate mongering based off what I've read and only having his views come to light now. Peace all
> 
> 
> Rev.



I see what you're trying to say, but I don't entirely agree. (Though I do to an extent.) I won't drag the conversation on, since I'm having a hell of a time articulating my thoughts clearly right now. I like you, and I'd much rather not have a sub-argument with you, especially when you're on my side where it matters most.


----------



## sessionswan

AndruwX said:


> I bet Vik anally masturbates.



I think you're missing the point of this discussion.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

^  Immature comments like that really aren't needed here.


----------



## crg123

Well this explains a lot... Jk and trying to lighten the mood. I've already made all my more serious contributions to this threads in the earlier pages...

The World's Heaviest Drinking Nations, Ranked
The World's Heaviest-Drinking Nations, Ranked



> The average U.S. resident drinks 9.2 liters of pure alcohol a year, according to the Global Status Report on Alcohol and Health 2014. Compare that to the 17.5 litres drunk by the hard-partying population of * Belarus*, who top the drinking tables



I'm also part Belirusian btw haha


----------



## Hollowway

Yeah, I 100% agree that the comments Vik is making have a bad effect on the LGBT community, because others use that as rationalization for their actions. There's a reason people get up in arms about comments about not liking minority groups, but not about not liking hamburgers or not liking automatic transmissions. People are being killed by those who share the discriminatory beliefs. Yes, Vik could say he has no intentions of physically harming a gay person, but the argument is academic - gay people are being physically harmed by people who don't like them, and now they have another person who is "on their side." 

And, again, I think a reasonable way to test this is to plug in another minority group into his original comment and see if that passes muster. If he said he didn't like 8 string guitars, because he just found out Tosin is black, would we be saying, "It's cool, he's not beating Tosin up. He's just voicing his opinion that he doesn't like black people. He's allowed to do that, and it's not like he's saying he's going to kill him."? I don't think so. So I don't think he's off the hook for this, either. Why are we so up in arms over it? Because, as a group, we have decided that it's no longer cool to discriminate against gay people. We can argue all day long about whether we should care or not if people like gay people or not, but at the end of the day, it's still what we have decided as a group is acceptable behavior.


----------



## flint757

RustInPeace said:


> The ultimate form of karma, is when people like this have children that turn out to be LGBT



IDK. I mean yeah it would be karmic justice, but I wouldn't wish someone to be born under the roof of someone who hates who you are as a person. I have family who grew up in such situations and they carry their childhoods through their entire lives.



RV350ALSCYTHE said:


> It's sad how right your comment is. Not in a karma punishment sense, but the fact that they can't empathize with others until they themselves are forced to experience the normality of an LGBT person through a family member. I say forced because given the choice they wouldn't even try.



Valid point and in some cases true. That isn't always the case though. I'd be willing to bet more gay children are abused/abandoned by their parents if they were homophobic prior than them converting to their line of thinking. Gay conversion therapy is still a real thing as an example.



molsoncanadian said:


> If I have read this correctly, than yes. You can say, "I dont like him, he's a dumbass." However, posting a facebook status, and making waves on social media about it, makes you the dumbass IMO. Bulb and Nolly are well aware of how their words can affect, and they chose to go about this in the un-classiest matter possible IMO. Just drop your endorsement and leave Vik alone. We don't need your nobel peace prize speech on why you dont like how he thinks. I can't help but wonder if this would have gotten all swept under the rug if it wasnt for those 2, which is probably the way it should have gone.



I agree with everyone else that Nolly and Misha made the right decision by making a statement for the reasons already stated elsewhere.

The one thing I want to point out is how hypocritical this post really is. You are only extending your position to benefit Vik. In truth what you are saying applies equally to everyone else as well, that includes Misha and Nolly when it comes to their 'nobel speech' rolleyes.



molsoncanadian said:


> At the heart of this all, I just hate that Vik's income may/will be affected by all of this. The guy is a luthier, not a fvcking poet. He makes what I assume to be (I dont have any experience) high quality guitars, and has probably spent alot of hard work and money/sacrifice getting to where he is. And *2 prepubscent public figures* could effectively cripple his market. That is what irks me. You endorse his guitar, not his opinions.



You sound like you like Vik a hell of a lot more than Misha and Nolly given the petty insult in the quote above. 

On a completely different playing field we could equate this in a different way. If I found out that a business I frequented was funding criminal activity of some sort I'd likely stop supporting them as well. That would also affect their income and family, but ignoring the facts in that situation and continuing my business anyhow would be considered inappropriate by most people I think. The severity may be a little different, but the same principle applies here. 

He should have been concerned about his income before he said anything at all. It is no one else's responsibility to make sure he has a paycheck at the end of the day other than himself. He should have evaluated the market he made the statement in and determined his thoughts are in the minority and as such kept them to himself. The fact that he didn't is all on him, not us. In the workplace, or when representing a business, talking about religion and politics (or politicized subjects) is a big no no anyhow. It was just an all around dumb decision.



ItWillDo said:


> Yes, because being so "supportive" of LGBT that wishing Vik bankruptcy and to die in a fire doesn't even come near the 'hate speech' he has expressed.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that about 70% of the people who are currently bandwagoning this whole deal, probably call someone a 'faggot' on a regular base.



I actually never use that word, but I'm also not a 12 year old playing Call of Duty soooo...

Facebook is a lot like youtube minus the anonymity. People tend to say stupid, outrageous things through these mediums. Welcome to the internet.

Here the majority of us have made no such statement making it largely irrelevant to the conversation. Generally commenters say stupid shit, not a new phenomenon. Go to a yahoo article and read the comments to get a real idea how shitty people can be.



molsoncanadian said:


> WHO CARES!!!?!?! This is literally my whole point. Everyone loves when someone expresses their love for the gay community, Vik is doing the opposite and getting chastised. He is entitled to hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.



You're correct as far as having those thoughts, but not when it comes to publicly stating them. We live in a capitalistic society that has a balance between supply and demand. The group that makes up his products demand do not agree with VIK at all it seems, therefore he should have never made them in the first place. The events that followed are all on him. It doesn't really matter if it is being 'blown out of proportion', it is what it is. He should have been more aware of his customers views if he was going to make such statements. As a business owner he shouldn't have made any such statement in the first place. The opposite happens too FYI. Plenty of Christians and bigots alike have boycotted companies that are pro-LGBT. This is not as one sided as the devil advocate camp are making it seem.

We too are entitled to


> hate/love/feel indifferent, just as you are entitled to ignore.


no?



molsoncanadian said:


> Be an adult, wipe your bum, and let it go. There's no need for a press release on everyones opinions. This honestly seems beyond silly to me.



Advice you could probably take as well don't you think? You'd feel differently if you were a part of a group being screwed over by another more accepted group of people. Apathy is rarely a thing to be proud of.



Electric Wizard said:


> Your argument that they are taking food out of Vik's kids' mouths works the other way. As endorsees, they are representing Vik's brand, and standing by while Vik hates on gay people can be very easily taken as a tacit approval. It's in their interest economically to distance themselves, let alone the moral issues. Vik is doing the same damage to them as your logic says they've done to him.







molsoncanadian said:


> That's a sound a respectable point. However, they could have just dropped the endorsement. There was no need to make a huge wave about it. I respect all opinions (Or I try to understand them anyways) and Vik doesnt like homosexuality. I am older myself and I understand that we aren't completely out of that demographic that is polarized by the gay movement. People might disagree with homosexuality, and thats fine. Not everyone is on board with the idea. When people say they have issues with it, I dont grab a loud speaker and stand on the corner of city hall and dispense my distaste for said person. I feel that, in a way is what happened.



He picked up the 'loudspeaker' first though. Social media _is_ online networking. You reach more ears via facebook than you likely would yelling gibberish at a street corner. He brought it on himself by saying anything at all. A minority opinion should only be voiced if you in fact want a reaction or something to come of it. If you hold a minority opinion on something and don't really care about the issue at all you'd just say nothing to begin with. There'd be no backlash if he had said nothing. 



molsoncanadian said:


> Furthermore, respect for the gay community should come through positive forms, not by publicly scolding opposing opinions. You dont change opinions by trashing the way other people think, it comes from conversation, listening, a little open mindedness. Not gathering SSO with pitch forks and hunting down Vik.



Change doesn't come from being apathetic either though. Think of it from a conversational standpoint. I make a joke about gay people that becomes popular and maybe involves a homophobic slur (think that's gay or faggot as examples). People find these jokes funny and then the vernacular becomes a part of said culture. This then extends to children saying things like "that's gay" and meaning it in a negative light which then reflects on the idea of being gay as somehow being a bad thing by default. Not saying that this always happens or that this is even the case here, but mindsets can shift fairly quick from 'joke' to genuine disgust or hate. When I was a young kid, say 6 or 7, it was already really common to use the word gay to mean something was bad. These things have unspoken repercussions sometimes. Even if it doesn't legally or economically affect someone, it hurts them in a social context as their peers see themselves as 'better'.



molsoncanadian said:


> To which I will add, this is basically what I have been trying to say. Vik is a gone-er. There is no changing that mans mind. He is obviously stubborn with his ideals, and people arguing just gives him validation. Im sure he loved the drama.
> 
> I think this was one of those "let sleeping dog's sleep." Let him destroy his own reputation. Dont soil yours with the likes of his. The whole Bulb, Nolly thing just adds more fuel to the fire. Just drop the endorsements, that alone is acknowledgement that his services werent up to par.



Yes, but if no one was talking about it his reputation wouldn't be ruined. The act of talking about it is in fact the only way to get people on board. I would not have know had I not checked this thread. His view may not change as a result of this, but someone else who comes across it very well may. It is for their benefit, not his, that this info be shared.

As far as Misha and Nolly, by representing Vik, Vik also represented them. Yes, ending their arrangement may have been enough, but not saying anything could, and probably would, damage their reputation too. That's ignoring the notion that they may be active in the movement to begin with in which a public statement would also make sense. If they quietly stepped out some people may not even be aware they ended their relationship with Vik making them look like they approve of his POV. This in turn can damage their reputation as well. Had they stated that they ended their endorsement to avoid this, without any details, certainly people would have asked. Stating outright is far simpler than being cryptic on the issue for no reason. The things mentioned in the post by Misha are personally things I'd want to know about a company before doing business (forcing someone to agree with their ideology before giving you your already paid for product, poor work habits, etc.).

[edit]

longer than expected.


----------



## Mega-Mads

Russianpropaganda said:


>


----------



## StevenC

Has ViK Guitars USA disappeared from Facebook? His personal page and ViK Guitars are still there, but ViK Guitars USA seems to have been deleted.

This could be significant.


----------



## ZeroS1gnol

This is getting way too much attention IMO, not worth some of the heated posts I read. Vik's a douche, let's just all ignore and not support him...


----------



## blanco

StevenC said:


> Has ViK Guitars USA disappeared from Facebook? His personal page and ViK Guitars are still there, but ViK Guitars USA seems to have been deleted.
> 
> This could be significant.



Yup definitely not showing up on my Facebook either. Maybe it was one step too far for whoever was going to make them for him.


----------



## Maniacal

Not sure this is worth destroying someones business over.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Maniacal said:


> Not sure this is worth destroying someones business over.



It is to me, though I'm perhaps biased. Kind of easy to overlook the kind of thing tolerating this crap does when you're not personally affected by it.


----------



## Maniacal

I am affected by it, I think its disgusting. But I think the sensible solution would be to try and reason with and educate, not destroy his business that has nothing to do with his views on sexual orientation.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

You mean to educate the guy that said this?


----------



## Maniacal

I don't want to get into a heated argument with any of you. Yes he's a dick but lots of people are brainwashed into believing all sorts of bullshit from a very young age. 

You can't cure hate with more hate.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Sorry guys, I had to.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Maniacal said:


> You can't cure hate with more hate.



Calling someone out on their bigotry and refusing to support them financially isn't hatred.


----------



## Maniacal

No you're right. Perhaps a better course of action would be to try and change his outlook, not spam his business with nonsense. This is in no way constructive and only serves to ostracize him even more. 

I don't want to comment anymore, I hate getting involved in this kind of stuff online. Wish I didn't comment now.


----------



## witeter

I think Vik was very stupid and naive in posting his thoughts on facebook, his following explanations/statements just dug him deeper. I really think he completely underestimated the power of facebook and the internet in general and how this relates directly to your business. He is entitled to his view of course, though i do find it incredibly ignorant. Bottom line is he should have kept his views to himself; how many other people in this forum or musicians we look upto have similar views or worse about a variety of issues? many im sure, but 99% of the time we wont know, as people are way to self-aware to come up and voice something like that. However, instead of bashing Vik mercilessly I would like to have a chat with him, understand why he holds those opinions, and challenge them in a constructive way. I believe people can change if they are given a chance to do so. Peoples beliefs and feelings are a result of a number of things and who knows-maybe if we had lived his life, we would have the same opinion? This doesn't make it acceptable but it does highlight that people more often than not are a result of their environment.


----------



## asher

witeter said:


> I think Vik was very stupid and naive in posting his thoughts on facebook, his following explanations/statements just dug him deeper. I really think he completely underestimated the power of facebook and the internet in general and how this relates directly to your business. He is entitled to his view of course, though i do find it incredibly ignorant. Bottom line is he should have kept his views to himself; how many other people in this forum or musicians we look upto have similar views or worse about a variety of issues? many im sure, but 99% of the time we wont know, as people are way to self-aware to come up and voice something like that. However, instead of bashing Vik mercilessly I would like to have a chat with him, understand why he holds those opinions, and challenge them in a constructive way. I believe people can change if they are given a chance to do so. Peoples beliefs and feelings are a result of a number of things and who knows-maybe if we had lived his life, we would have the same opinion? This doesn't make it acceptable but it does highlight that people more often than not are a result of their environment.



People need to be interested in changing, to at least a little. Many of the responses *were* calm and constructive and challenging, and Vik completely ignored them and went into butthurt victim mode.


----------



## witeter

I am not saying that some of the responses weren't calm/constructive, a lot of them though didnt fit into that category. I guess you reap what you sow - but how could i possibly make a judgement on whether he is interesting in changing or not based on the last couple of days. The truth is we will probably never know; i just hope that in time, he can see clearly.


----------



## asher

witeter said:


> I am not saying that some of the responses weren't calm/constructive, a lot of them though didnt fit into that category. I guess you reap what you sow - but how could i possibly make a judgement on whether he is interesting in changing or not based on the last couple of days. The truth is we will probably never know; i just hope that in time, he can see clearly.



There were a lot of rage comments, yes. Especially the big names put forth very excellent responses though.

How can we judge whether he's interested in changing? Here's how:

He made a statement, it backfired, he then switched to his official company to make more statements, they kept backfiring, so he switched to a combination of backpedalling, playing the victim, banning anyone who disagrees, then taking his toys and leaving the playground.

None of those are things done by someone willing to consider that they are wrong.


ed: and if you take into consideration any of his other statements and actions regarding his pitiful attempts at customer service, I think there is very little room in his character for any constructive motion here.


----------



## witeter

I understand what you are saying; however I think that he (as you rightly pointed out) kept on trying to justify his views and just digging himself a deeper grave. However, him wanting to change, i dont think will happen during these days/weeks,etc as he is in the middle of a cyclone. Id rather hold onto the idea that one day when he is able to view this from a different viewpoint he will be able and willing to change and understand the damage of his statements.


----------



## asher

witeter said:


> I understand what you are saying; however I think that he (as you rightly pointed out) kept on trying to justify his views and just digging himself a deeper grave. However, him wanting to change, i dont think will happen during these days/weeks,etc as he is in the middle of a cyclone. Id rather hold onto the idea that one day when he is able to view this from a different viewpoint he will be able and willing to change and understand the damage of his statements.



While I'd love to think that too, I won't hold my breath.

It'd be nice if it happens though.


----------



## witeter

I live in hope


----------



## asher

witeter said:


> I live in hope



That makes one of us


----------



## witeter

Y U n0 let me hav last w0rd? lol


----------



## Alberto7

asher said:


> How can we judge whether he's interested in changing? Here's how:
> 
> *How*



That, and the fact that he never sincerely apologized for all of his ....uppities with customer service prior to this whole crusade. He never made up for it in a proper manner, and only showed reluctance and resentment when asked to do so (i.e. taking a bajillion days to refund customers, backlash against differing opinions, etc.)

It's fairly reasonable to assume that an actual apology won't come from him. I hope to be proven wrong though.



asher said:


> ed: and if you take into consideration any of his other statements and actions regarding his pitiful attempts at customer service, I think there is very little room in his character for any constructive motion here.



Yes.


----------



## Konfyouzd

His apology is indicative of perhaps an underlying mental problem. Sometimes folks with borderline personality disorder behave the way he has. He could just be a mean person, though.


----------



## hairychris

witeter said:


> I think Vik was very stupid and naive in posting his thoughts on facebook, *his following explanations/statements just dug him deeper*.



That is why this slow-motion car-crash has got to the point that it has. If he'd have offered a genuine-sounding (if not actually meant) apology and then shut the hell up this will have blown over by now.

Now, in his home/Belorussian environment, his views may well be the norm. In that I can see him making a statement out of ignorance, not knowing how his international audience will take it. Understandable, if not actually particularly pleasant, but one that's easily rectified by doing the above. This hasn't quite happened.

Anyone else get the impression that this nonsense and the "customer service"-related issues are 2 sides of the same coin? That coin being Vik's ego?

Edit: Ninja'd, pretty much!


----------



## stevexc

Konfyouzd said:


> His apology is indicative of perhaps an underlying mental problem. Sometimes folks with borderline personality disorder behave the way he has. He could just be a mean person, though.




I don't think anyone here has the combination of expertise and knowledge - of both psychology and of Vik's psyche - to make it worthwhile to speculate on his mental status 

He's more simply got an attitude that's all too common - there's "right" and "wrong", and since he believes that he is a good Christian the things he does are "right" and the things people do differently - eg being gay - are "wrong". If it's a choice, they're making the wrong choice and can be saved - if it's not a choice, then there is something fundamentally wrong with that person. A person like that can justify that they are actually in the right to preach hatred against homosexuality because in their mind, they're doing "those poor Damned fags" a favor by helping them to repent and be able to enter Heaven and blah blah blah.

Add to that a healthy dose of the decades-old stereotypes and connotations - being gay is being feminine, being feminine is being weak - and you've got a very difficult mindset to fix. There's so many "fundamental truths" someone like him believes that to change his mind on any of it would literally require changing his entire worldview. As positive as that would be, it's the equivalent of trying to convince yourself that the sky is green. Even if it is in fact green your brain cannot handle it.

That does not by any mean excuse the intolerance and the comments, though. Even if you can't cause the man to change his mind, he - and everyone else that spreads that kind of hatred, whether through physical violence, through offensive "jokes" like that, or simply through complacency in allowing that kind of behaviour to continue - NEEDS to be shown that it's simply not acceptable to behave that way.

And you know what? As terrible as the joke may have been, maybe a gay son - or other close family member - would cause him to rethink some of his beliefs. Or maybe it'll wind up another tragedy like happens all too often.


----------



## Konfyouzd

So we're going with the latter... 

Fair enough. I thought that maybe I might try to give him the benefit of the doubt in the most logical way I could think of rather than trying to defend his freedom of belief.


----------



## AngstRiddenDreams

Wrong post, sorry


----------



## Sang-Drax

How does not buying his products equals hate?

And even they were the same - so what? Hating someone for their actions is quite different from hating someone due to what they are. Yes, I do hope his business goes downhill from now on. He hates me without ever having known me; let me hate him for something he said.


----------



## JohnIce

Maniacal said:


> No you're right. Perhaps a better course of action would be to try and change his outlook, not spam his business with nonsense. This is in no way constructive and only serves to ostracize him even more.
> 
> I don't want to comment anymore, I hate getting involved in this kind of stuff online. Wish I didn't comment now.



There's no point in trying to change his outlook, it's futile and there are also far worse offenders to focus on if you were to actually put that time in. Putin, being an obvious example.

No, the purpose here is that if comments like Vik's are not tolerated by a large group of people, then these opinions will little by little be considered more inappropriate and phased out of society. If kids can grow up in an environment where homophobia is taught to be just as bad as racism and sexism, _then_ we have won. Sort of, anyway. So yeah, changing Vik's mind is not the goal at all here.

There are always fundamentalists that can't be reasoned with but there's also a large mass of people who don't know any better who can easily go either way if they get a good enough argument for it. Hell, people were heiling all over Europe when Hitler was winning and all of a sudden Hitler lost and those people changed their minds. They were never actual Nazi's, they weren't bad people, just regular people going with the flow and not thinking too much about it. 

Making an example out of outspoken homophobes will show such people that homophobia is a bad road to go down, and most of the time that's all it takes. Currently, not enough people are doing that in eastern europe and that's why there's so much violence and hate against LGBTQ people over there.


----------



## stevexc

Sang-Drax said:


> How does not buying his products equals hate?
> 
> And even they were the same - so what? Hating someone for their actions is quite different from hating someone due to what they are. Yes, I do hope his business goes downhill from now on. He hates me without ever having known me; let me hate him for something he said.



Disclaimer: I 100% agree with you and am only using your post as a springboard of sorts.

The "hate" being directed towards Vik is NOT:

- cancelling orders
- cancelling endorsements
- boycotting
- calling him out, as per Per Nilsson's reply

However, the hate IS:

- insulting Vik directly
- posting porn on his page
- making threats

I feel like a lot of people are lumping the two categories together. Yes, there are people taking it too far and doing those things in the second. That's not going to do anything but give him ammunition or excuses to retaliate. Fortunately, that's mostly the vocal minority.

I firmly believe that choosing to not purchase from a company, and to recommend others to do the same, based off personal ethics is entirely valid and an appropriate response. If it causes a negative impact on his business, so what? He chose to make comments that he had no excuse to NOT know were inflammatory and inappropriate, given how huge of a topic LGBTQ rights are right now. Realistically, ANY kind of political (used loosely) commentary by a business owner is a risky choice and should probably be avoided. Those who agree with it will lend their support, but you will lose out on everyone who disagrees.

The kind of comments he's made have caused other people to lose jobs - very high profile ones - many times over the years. For recent examples, you've got Paula Dean, Phil Robertson, and Donald Sterling. That kind of hate speech has its consequences, and Vik really has gotten off easily.


----------



## Fred the Shred

What I have to say is simple: careful with how you combat evil, lest you become the very evil you set out to destroy.

I am more than obviously in disagreement with his views on a supposed "gay lifestyle" and even more so when it comes to the whole moral turpitude of having a different gender preference. This however is never an excuse to conduct in a vastly inappropriate and often childish and rash manner. On doing so, I'd be both legitimising his views given how I would react in an uncivilised way and meet a wrong with another one.,so I would be no different than the oppressors I was quick to point my finger at.

Tl;dr - point out the wrong, never lose the cool.


----------



## molsoncanadian

flint757 said:


> IDK. I mean yeah it would be karmic justice, but I wouldn't wish someone to be born under the roof of someone who hates who you are as a person. I have family who grew up in such situations and they carry their childhoods through their entire lives.
> 
> 
> 
> Valid point and in some cases true. That isn't always the case though. I'd be willing to bet more gay children are abused/abandoned by their parents if they were homophobic prior than them converting to their line of thinking. Gay conversion therapy is still a real thing as an example.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree with everyone else that Nolly and Misha made the right decision by making a statement for the reasons already stated elsewhere.
> 
> The one thing I want to point out is how hypocritical this post really is. You are only extending your position to benefit Vik. In truth what you are saying applies equally to everyone else as well, that includes Misha and Nolly when it comes to their 'nobel speech' rolleyes.
> 
> 
> 
> You sound like you like Vik a hell of a lot more than Misha and Nolly given the petty insult in the quote above.
> 
> On a completely different playing field we could equate this in a different way. If I found out that a business I frequented was funding criminal activity of some sort I'd likely stop supporting them as well. That would also affect their income and family, but ignoring the facts in that situation and continuing my business anyhow would be considered inappropriate by most people I think. The severity may be a little different, but the same principle applies here.
> 
> He should have been concerned about his income before he said anything at all. It is no one else's responsibility to make sure he has a paycheck at the end of the day other than himself. He should have evaluated the market he made the statement in and determined his thoughts are in the minority and as such kept them to himself. The fact that he didn't is all on him, not us. In the workplace, or when representing a business, talking about religion and politics (or politicized subjects) is a big no no anyhow. It was just an all around dumb decision.
> 
> 
> 
> I actually never use that word, but I'm also not a 12 year old playing Call of Duty soooo...
> 
> Facebook is a lot like youtube minus the anonymity. People tend to say stupid, outrageous things through these mediums. Welcome to the internet.
> 
> Here the majority of us have made no such statement making it largely irrelevant to the conversation. Generally commenters say stupid shit, not a new phenomenon. Go to a yahoo article and read the comments to get a real idea how shitty people can be.
> 
> 
> 
> You're correct as far as having those thoughts, but not when it comes to publicly stating them. We live in a capitalistic society that has a balance between supply and demand. The group that makes up his products demand do not agree with VIK at all it seems, therefore he should have never made them in the first place. The events that followed are all on him. It doesn't really matter if it is being 'blown out of proportion', it is what it is. He should have been more aware of his customers views if he was going to make such statements. As a business owner he shouldn't have made any such statement in the first place. The opposite happens too FYI. Plenty of Christians and bigots alike have boycotted companies that are pro-LGBT. This is not as one sided as the devil advocate camp are making it seem.
> 
> We too are entitled to
> 
> no?
> 
> 
> 
> Advice you could probably take as well don't you think? You'd feel differently if you were a part of a group being screwed over by another more accepted group of people. Apathy is rarely a thing to be proud of.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He picked up the 'loudspeaker' first though. Social media _is_ online networking. You reach more ears via facebook than you likely would yelling gibberish at a street corner. He brought it on himself by saying anything at all. A minority opinion should only be voiced if you in fact want a reaction or something to come of it. If you hold a minority opinion on something and don't really care about the issue at all you'd just say nothing to begin with. There'd be no backlash if he had said nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> Change doesn't come from being apathetic either though. Think of it from a conversational standpoint. I make a joke about gay people that becomes popular and maybe involves a racial slur (think that's gay or faggot as examples). People find these jokes funny and then the vernacular becomes a part of said culture. This then extends to children saying things like "that's gay" and meaning it in a negative light which then reflects on the idea of being gay as somehow being a bad thing by default. Not saying that this always happens or that this is even the case here, but mindsets can shift fairly quick from 'joke' to genuine disgust or hate. When I was a young kid, say 6 or 7, it was already really common to use the word gay to mean something was bad. These things have unspoken repercussions sometimes. Even if it doesn't legally or economically affect someone, it hurts them in a social context as their peers see themselves as 'better'.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but if no one was talking about it his reputation wouldn't be ruined. The act of talking about it is in fact the only way to get people on board. I would not have know had I not checked this thread. His view may not change as a result of this, but someone else who comes across it very well may. It is for their benefit, not his, that this info be shared.
> 
> As far as Misha and Nolly, by representing Vik, Vik also represented them. Yes, ending their arrangement may have been enough, but not saying anything could, and probably would, damage their reputation too. That's ignoring the notion that they may be active in the movement to begin with in which a public statement would also make sense. If they quietly stepped out some people may not even be aware they ended their relationship with Vik making them look like they approve of his POV. This in turn can damage their reputation as well. Had they stated that they ended their endorsement to avoid this, without any details, certainly people would have asked. Stating outright is far simpler than being cryptic on the issue for no reason. The things mentioned in the post by Misha are personally things I'd want to know about a company before doing business (forcing someone to agree with their ideology before giving you your already paid for product, poor work habits, etc.).
> 
> [edit]
> 
> longer than expected.


 
I won't exactly adress every point in order per say, and I am writing this with concession in mind, as I hope my previous posts have shown. I agree that some of my statements were out of line, however, some got taken out of context. To summarize.

- I have gay friends
- I have oodles or respect for the LBGT community.
- I do not agree with or condone the views of Vik, in ANY way shape or form, however, he lives in a different part of the world, and his cultural norms are far different that mine, I am aware of that.

The things I do have an issue with

- People who wish bad things for Vik.* People make mistakes*. It's part of life. I can't believe how quick people are to nail him to the cross, although I ABSOLUTELY understand why. I just think there are more things to consider at play.
- I dont agree with the immediate harsh replies from the "good side." I think a more ammicable way of thinking about this is "it's a shame he thinks that way, hopefully someone can educate him on how harmful these views are." Granted, I dont think that would go far (as I mentioned earlier)
- I personally, never wish harm on other people, there's so much that goes on in a person's life, external influences that shape the individuality of a person. I once read a quote that read something along these lines

"Every person in life is fighting their own personal invisible battles."

- How do we know Vik's father didn't raise Vik as such? Would it truly be fair to judge someone based on their respect for a parent's ideal's? 

I know some of that is extrapolative, hypothetical, but when I see certain comments, its truly depressing. I never wish harm, poor fortune for another human being, period. That doesn't mean I can't harbour negative feelings, however, I'm not going to round people up and start a riot.

A couple more points to address Nolly, Bulb

- I came out guns hot, and that was wrong. However, I dont think the waves were necessary, and that is my opinion, my apologies if that offends some of you.

- In hypothetical absence of both post's (Nolly, Bulb) people would have ripped Vik a new one anyways. The thing that bugs me is this:

If it was just a couple people tearing Vik a new one on his facebook page, then all is fine and well. But when you have 2 major public figures spreading this news around like Wildfire, I feel like it only further propogates Vik's views. It help's communicate *HIS* message. Putting up headlines and so on, only magnifies the issue. More people are aware of how Vik feels, and his ideals as a result. 

Think about how you heard this news, did you hear the following:

a) Misha and Nolly are LBGT supporters, awesome!
b) Vik is trashing gay people of facebook, come read what he said!

Now I understand both sides of the coin, as well as everyone's counter arguments. I just feel that Vik would have cooked his own goose (without the aid of Nolly/Bulb), and his ideals/hateful words would have reached less ears, smaller radius of influence, less negativity spread.

The counter, is that this whole situation coming to fruition has certainly rounded people together, and as a result, it was nice to see the positive responses from many of you in regards to LBGT community.

Hopefully that has cleared up some misconceptions regarding my earlier posts, which I am well aware are my fault.

Cheers


----------



## Lord Voldemort

I just want to say, I think it's beautiful that we're reaching a point of such enlightenment that simply implying that you dislike homosexuals can completely ruin your business and generate this kind of backlash. 

I live in Seattle, therefore I know a ton of homosexual men and women, and they're all great people who don't deserve to be judged and discriminated against just because they were born being attracted to their own sex. That's obviously no one's business, and has nothing to do with the content of their character. 

My grandparents are gay, and they've been married for 40 years. They've been through things you wouldn't believe, and on a daily basis have to live around people like this who are disgusted with them just because they're in love. Mindsets like Viks are pathetic and feeble, and are both nonprogressive and extremely mean. 

But, I'm sincerely happy that the VAST majority of people are coming out and supporting the homosexual community in a big way. It's awesome, and shows that the world is genuinely becoming a better place.


----------



## Mach666

After all this, do you guys think it's still possible to purchase/play Vik's guitars publicly without it being perceived as a political statement?


----------



## Konfyouzd

Yes bc no one really knows who he is.


----------



## Sang-Drax

stevexc said:


> However, the hate IS:
> 
> - insulting Vik directly
> - posting porn on his page
> - making threats




I wasn't really aware that such things were happening (I don't endorse them at all). All I read were criticisms directed at those who were calling him out.


----------



## Toxic Dover

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


>



So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...

What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded... 

Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed. 

THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable? 

Should Vik apologize anymore than he did in the Facebook post? I think he should, but only for the wording of his statements. The way they were worded expressed a hate for people who identified as homosexuals; his rebuttal above states "not liking" gay people, which is wrong - there's no reason to hate or dislike a person based off of their sexual orientation. But again, did he actually mean that, or is he just bad at word choice? Could be, but that's not for me or anybody else to judge. But for disagreeing with homosexuality? He should not have to apologize for that, nor should he have to apologize for living by Christian values (so he says - whether or not he actually does is between him and God). 

I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.


----------



## mcrdsd911

Toxic Dover said:


> So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...
> 
> What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded...
> 
> Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.
> 
> THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?
> 
> Should Vik apologize anymore than he did in the Facebook post? I think he should, but only for the wording of his statements. The way they were worded expressed a hate for people who identified as homosexuals; his rebuttal above states "not liking" gay people, which is wrong - there's no reason to hate or dislike a person based off of their sexual orientation. But again, did he actually mean that, or is he just bad at word choice? Could be, but that's not for me or anybody else to judge. But for disagreeing with homosexuality? He should not have to apologize for that, nor should he have to apologize for living by Christian values (so he says - whether or not he actually does is between him and God).
> 
> I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.




very well said! 100% agree. The double standard is beyond me....


----------



## Perfectly Awkward Cat




----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Toxic Dover said:


> Stuff


Again, no one is saying you have to be for or against LGBT rights, but when you say hateful things you better be able to brave the shit storm that will come as a result of what you said. How hard is that for people who keep bringing this same point to get?


----------



## stevexc

Toxic Dover said:


> So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...
> 
> What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded...
> 
> Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.
> 
> THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?
> 
> Should Vik apologize anymore than he did in the Facebook post? I think he should, but only for the wording of his statements. The way they were worded expressed a hate for people who identified as homosexuals; his rebuttal above states "not liking" gay people, which is wrong - there's no reason to hate or dislike a person based off of their sexual orientation. But again, did he actually mean that, or is he just bad at word choice? Could be, but that's not for me or anybody else to judge. But for disagreeing with homosexuality? He should not have to apologize for that, nor should he have to apologize for living by Christian values (so he says - whether or not he actually does is between him and God).
> 
> I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.




captainpicardfacepalm.jpeg

We're doing this again? I guess the last one was a whole page away...

It's not a matter of agree vs disagree. Vik didn't "disagree" with homosexuality. Vik OPPOSED homosexuality. Vik literally called homosexuals "mistakes" and stated - regardless of whether he were serious or not - that they should be charged double for his guitars just due to them being gay.

Replace the references to homosexuality with references to being black and I'm sure you'll quickly see the sheer ridiculousness. Judging any group of people due to a shared factor - skin color, religion, sexuality - is WRONG. There are literally laws about it.

He can live by whatever values he wants, but as soon as those values extend to anyone else he can't hide behind that excuse anymore.


----------



## Mik3D23

Toxic Dover said:


> I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.



As I have stated before in this thread, what is there to disagree with about homosexuality? I really don't understand this.



> Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.



This is very debatable. First of all, even if you're right on the "small amount" of people who don't like gays, they sure seem to cause a lot of problems for the LGBT community. Secondly, the course of history over the last few years seems to contradict this. If the majority of people are so "live and let live" about it, why are gays not allowed to get married, yet beastiality and incest-marriage is legal in many states? (But no one raises a stink about that). Marriage isn't a religious institution. Christian Marriage is a religious tradition. Just because someone gets married, doesn't mean it's a Christian marriage, otherwise why are atheists and other groups allowed to get married?


----------



## Overtone

If there's one thing worth keeping in mind from this whole thing it's this...


----------



## russmuller

His behavior over the past few months seems a lot like that of someone experiencing some kind of psychological condition. I've seen friends with drug problems go through ridiculous and embarrassing episodes struggling with addiction. I remember a while ago he was hospitalized for something (was it something with his back?). I wonder if he's all hopped up on a heavy supply of painkillers.


----------



## Lord Voldemort

Toxic Dover said:


> So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...
> 
> What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded...
> 
> Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like gay people. They hate them because of their sexual orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's sexual orientation is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with gay people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.
> 
> THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?
> 
> Should Vik apologize anymore than he did in the Facebook post? I think he should, but only for the wording of his statements. The way they were worded expressed a hate for people who identified as homosexuals; his rebuttal above states "not liking" gay people, which is wrong - there's no reason to hate or dislike a person based off of their sexual orientation. But again, did he actually mean that, or is he just bad at word choice? Could be, but that's not for me or anybody else to judge. But for disagreeing with homosexuality? He should not have to apologize for that, nor should he have to apologize for living by Christian values (so he says - whether or not he actually does is between him and God).
> 
> I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.



The irritating part of this sentiment is the fact that people seem to think disliking a group of people based illogical viewpoints is somehow acceptable, let them have their opinions, it's ok!

No, it's not, and it hurts people.


----------



## bulb

I feel like I have to clear up one thing I have seen come up a few times now:

Nolly and I made official statements because we had business ties and arrangements with Vik. As representatives of his brand and product, keeping our mouths shut would only make us look like we were supporting him and his stance on the matter, and that was absolutely unacceptable to us. 

To add to that, right as this started developing we were both getting a lot of personal messages and questions about the situation, because people were already concerned about where exactly we stood. 

Hope that clears it up.


----------



## Noxon

18 pages later, and still no minds changed. Just two opposite points of view that will never see eye to eye. Vik is an asshole and a homophobe that has a huge ego and ridiculously overpriced guitars. We should stop talking about the guy, quit buying his guitars, and feeding into this shit. I'm sure he loves the attention. Plus, we aren't going to change him. Why are we kicking each other in the balls over a much bigger issue than SSO has the capacity to change?


----------



## MBMoreno

I feel I should add a simple quote to this.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity"


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

MBMoreno said:


> I feel I should add a simple quote to this.
> 
> "There is no such thing as bad publicity"



"...Unless you lose several customers and endorsers, as well as being revealed to be a terrible businessperson."

EDIT: And as said before, bad publicity did WONDERS for BRJ, S7G, Invictus, Roter, Emperon, etc.


----------



## narad

MBMoreno said:


> I feel I should add a simple quote to this.
> 
> "There is no such thing as bad publicity"



Yea, and Strictly7 is just brimming with orders since their incompetence came to light.  

It really should not need to be pointed out that a guitar company doesn't have the same goals as Snookie or the Westboro Baptist Church, there *is* such a thing as bad publicity, and Vik is most certainly not enjoying the attention he's found in the past few days.

::dashes into a nearby phonebooth to discard his Captain Obvious outfit::


----------



## SnowfaLL

Noxon said:


> 18 pages later, and still no minds changed. Just two opposite points of view that will never see eye to eye. Vik is an asshole and a homophobe that has a huge ego and ridiculously overpriced guitars. We should stop talking about the guy, quit buying his guitars, and feeding into this shit. I'm sure he loves the attention. Plus, we aren't going to change him. Why are we kicking each other in the balls over a much bigger issue than SSO has the capacity to change?



While I normally agree in the philosophy of ignoring people like that in life (big corporations, businesses, "celebrities"), I honestly feel in the guitar luthier buisness, their reputation is everything. The more angry threads/posts/comments coming out about ViK will show up when anyone does a search on his guitars, and hopefully it will sway people from purchasing his guitars, the same way Bernie Rico Jr's reputation collapsed after everything came out. 

Any guitarist looking into a high end (3k+) custom should do their due dilligence reading reviews before ordering, so we need to get the word out there about how ViK is. We can't change his opinion or stop homophobia obviously, but putting a black label on his business that he will never be able to recover from is worth it. Anytime someone asks about his guitars, this thread + the others should be brought up. It actually benefits the customers the most, obviously he treats them like shit anyways..


----------



## Toxic Dover

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Again, no one is saying you have to be for or against LGBT rights, but when you say hateful things you better be able to brave the shit storm that will come as a result of what you said. How hard is that for people who keep bringing this same point to get?



I absolutely agree in regards to the Vik situation: the things he said were written and taken, whether intentional or not, hatefully, and he should make amends for that. That's not what I'm arguing. 

In a more general sense, anytime anybody expresses an opinion that deviates from the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, regardless of how delicately that opinion is expressed, more times than not the floodgates break loose and everybody jumps on the "ignorant, hate-filled bigot" bandwagon. 



stevexc said:


> captainpicardfacepalm.jpeg
> 
> We're doing this again? I guess the last one was a whole page away...
> 
> It's not a matter of agree vs disagree. Vik didn't "disagree" with homosexuality. Vik OPPOSED homosexuality. Vik literally called homosexuals "mistakes" and stated - regardless of whether he were serious or not - that they should be charged double for his guitars just due to them being gay.
> 
> Replace the references to homosexuality with references to being black and I'm sure you'll quickly see the sheer ridiculousness. Judging any group of people due to a shared factor - skin color, religion, sexuality - is WRONG. There are literally laws about it.
> 
> He can live by whatever values he wants, but as soon as those values extend to anyone else he can't hide behind that excuse anymore.



Forgive me, I didn't feel like reading through 18 pages of this. 

Vik (or anybody for that matter) calling a human being a mistake because of a viewpoint is wrong, no question. Judging groups of people (PEOPLE THEMSELVES, not their life choices) is wrong, no question. My post was a bit more general in nature as opposed to a direct reflection upon the Vik drama; any person with a belief or disagreement with homosexuality in general is damned. It doesn't matter how much they emphasize that they do not hate the person, the group of people, whatever; just because they don't openly accept and condone a lifestyle decision, they're labeled because of it, and that's absolutely a double standard.



Mik3D23 said:


> As I have stated before in this thread, what is there to disagree with about homosexuality? I really don't understand this.
> 
> This is very debatable. First of all, even if you're right on the "small amount" of people who don't like gays, they sure seem to cause a lot of problems for the LGBT community. Secondly, the course of history over the last few years seems to contradict this. If the majority of people are so "live and let live" about it, why are gays not allowed to get married, yet beastiality and incest-marriage is legal in many states? (But no one raises a stink about that). Marriage isn't a religious institution. Christian Marriage is a religious tradition. Just because someone gets married, doesn't mean it's a Christian marriage, otherwise why are atheists and other groups allowed to get married?



I can't answer about the bestiality and incestuous marriage, but I think it's appalling to say the least. It's also debatable (or at the very least a matter of opinion) on whether or not marriage is a religious institution by origin or not. If you're an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else, of course you're not going to see it as a religious institution. If you do subscribe to one of the many religious beliefs that hold it as some sort of a sacred bond, then you will view it as a religious institution. 

By definition, the term "marriage" has for years meant the union between one man and one woman. Just speaking for the United States, when over 3/4 of your population identifies as Christian or some flavor thereof (Catholic, Mormon, etc.), you're stepping on a lot of people's toes by trying to alter that. 



Lord Voldemort said:


> The irritating part of this sentiment is the fact that people seem to think disliking a group of people based illogical viewpoints is somehow acceptable, let them have their opinions, it's ok!
> 
> No, it's not, and it hurts people.



That's not what I said. Judging people is wrong. Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody. If somebody can't handle the fact that their beliefs and choices aren't going to be accepted and condoned by every other person on this planet, then I don't see how they can make it through life.


----------



## asher

Toxic Dover said:


> Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Yeah, once people imply that gayness is a choice, their argument is moot, IMO.

I never chose to be gay. Other bi/gay people here most likely never chose to be gay, either.


----------



## Promit

Toxic Dover said:


> In a more general sense, anytime anybody expresses an opinion that deviates from the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, regardless of how delicately that opinion is expressed, more times than not the floodgates break loose and everybody jumps on the "ignorant, hate-filled bigot" bandwagon.





> It doesn't matter how much they emphasize that they do not hate the person, the group of people, whatever; just because they don't openly accept and condone a lifestyle decision, they're labeled because of it, and that's absolutely a double standard.


Unfortunately, you have just stepped in it. With both feet. Knee deep.

Just to emphasize, the current understanding shared among most here and most who accept homosexuality is that it is NOT in the general case a choice, or a lifestyle. No more than being a woman or black or short or whatever. Just as you most likely did not choose to be heterosexual, those people did not choose to be homosexual. At _best_ you're saying -- and I know there are many Christians who say this -- that even if homosexuality is a God given born in trait, they should simply suppress it and not follow "the lifestyle". So apparently God loves gay people, but they're not allowed to have love or happiness or companionship. How very compassionate of them.

You DID, however, choose to be Christian and to follow a particular set of beliefs that create a certain morality. I think you should reflect on why you made that choice.


----------



## JohnIce

Toxic Dover said:


> Forgive me, I didn't feel like reading through 18 pages of this.



If it matters to you enough to post about it, maybe you should have. Skipping a discussion just to voice your own opinion is commonly known as ignorance. The textbook variety.



Toxic Dover said:


> Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices



See asher's post. They're not choices, mate. They're not. Disagreeing with homosexuality is like disagreeing with, I don't know, freckles. Or baldness.


----------



## stevexc

MBMoreno said:


> I feel I should add a simple quote to this.
> 
> "There is no such thing as bad publicity"





HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> "...Unless you lose several customers and endorsers, as well as being revealed to be a terrible businessperson."
> 
> EDIT: And as said before, bad publicity did WONDERS for BRJ, S7G, Invictus, Roter, Emperon, etc.





I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one, JazzHands. Vik's gonna keep making guitars and keep getting orders. People are unfortunately going to be attracted his viewpoint, plus when it comes to the (admittedly few) guitars he actually finishes they are of a much higher caliber than what those guys were putting out. I missed most of what happened with the last few names, but BRJ had a MASSIVE drop in quality followed by completely cutting off everybody.

It wasn't just the bad publicity that killed the other guys.

But perhaps since he is on the smaller side and is losing the few high-profile endorsees he had, it might be enough...


----------



## russmuller

Promit said:


> You DID, however, choose to be Christian and to follow a particular set of beliefs that create a certain morality. I think you should reflect on why you made that choice.



^

Nobody is born a Christian.


----------



## HighGain510

Maniacal said:


> Not sure this is worth destroying someones business over.



As I pointed out in the other thread, his bad business decisions and actions towards current customers were already doing a pretty good job at destroying his business to begin with if you want to try to act like this wasn't something that should count against the business side of things.


----------



## Chokey Chicken

Noxon said:


> 18 pages later, and still no minds changed. Just two opposite points of view that will never see eye to eye. Vik is an asshole and a homophobe that has a huge ego and ridiculously overpriced guitars. We should stop talking about the guy, quit buying his guitars, and feeding into this shit. I'm sure he loves the attention. Plus, we aren't going to change him. Why are we kicking each other in the balls over a much bigger issue than SSO has the capacity to change?




This will be my last contribution to the thread. At this point, I don't think there really is much reason to talk about it, but I'll gladly support people who keep the awareness raised. We talk about it not to change his mind, though if we did that'd be great, but to raise awareness. Awareness that if you give this man your money, you are giving a bigot money. Someone who votes powers into office, powers that actively make some peoples lives difficult. Someone who perpetuates and helps normalize hate. I would be very unhappy if I have a guy money, which he turned out to use to buy a bat to beat me or people like me. (Hopefully you understand my point. It doesn't have to be a literal beating, it can be figurative.)

Anyway, anyone who needs to know likely does know now. People can now make educated choices, and in the future if anyone asks what Vik is like because they're considering a guitar, we can spread the knowledge. Big names have cut ties, which is great because people who want to emulate them won't find themselves down this path. 

My final final statement is to say the most sincere "thank you" to everyone who is showing amazing support. When I get to a computer, I'll be sure to hand out a bit of rep (no neg rep,) tosome of the folks who spent time speaking up for people like me. It's not a perfect world, in fact it's far from it, but people like you guys make it a whole hell of a lot better than it was even five years ago. Thanks again, and keep doing what you do!


----------



## Necris

Toxic Dover said:


> I can't answer about the bestiality and incestuous marriage, but I think it's appalling to say the least.


And as I mentioned quite a few pages ago, in the united states Bestiality is legal in 14 states and the District of Columbia, not to mention various unincorporated territories. Until 2003 having sex with a person of the same gender could get you thrown in jail in various states across the country.

Until November of 2013 you could marry your cousin without restriction in more states than you could marry a person of the same gender.
You can still marry your first cousin in a 13 states legally, that_ is _considered incest. You can marry your first cousin in 2 more with minor restrictions.




> It's also debatable (or at the very least a matter of opinion) on whether or not marriage is a religious institution by origin or not. If you're an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else, of course you're not going to see it as a religious institution. If you do subscribe to one of the many religious beliefs that hold it as some sort of a sacred bond, then you will view it as a religious institution.
> 
> By definition, the term "marriage" has for years meant the union between one man and one woman. Just speaking for the United States, when over 3/4 of your population identifies as Christian or some flavor thereof (Catholic, Mormon, etc.), you're stepping on a lot of people's toes by trying to alter that.


It doesn't matter if 99.9% of the population believed marriage to be defined as solely between a man and a woman due to their religious beliefs, the majority cannot define the rights of a minority, the toes of the religious be damned. 
Your beliefs are irrelevant. 
Giving this sort of preferential treatment to one religion effectively makes all those of other religions and the non-religious second class citizens.

Do you really think the government has an obligation to define what a Civil Marriage is in such a way that it does not conflict with various religious conceptions of marriage? That it is obligated to disenfranchise one group of people so that it doesn't "step on" the toes of the religious community?



> That's not what I said. Judging people is wrong. Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody. If somebody can't handle the fact that their beliefs and choices aren't going to be accepted and condoned by every other person on this planet, then I don't see how they can make it through life.


I've pushed many people to clarify to me what the Homosexual lifestyle actually is, most have refused, those who have obliged have had conflicting definitions. 

You've used the phrase homosexual lifestyle as well as the phrase "lifestyle choice" in regards to sexuality. Define what the homosexual life style is to you.


----------



## Mik3D23

Toxic Dover said:


> I can't answer about the bestiality and incestuous marriage, but I think it's appalling to say the least. It's also debatable (or at the very least a matter of opinion) on whether or not marriage is a religious institution by origin or not. If you're an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else, of course you're not going to see it as a religious institution. If you do subscribe to one of the many religious beliefs that hold it as some sort of a sacred bond, then you will view it as a religious institution.
> 
> By definition, the term "marriage" has for years meant the union between one man and one woman. Just speaking for the United States, when over 3/4 of your population identifies as Christian or some flavor thereof (Catholic, Mormon, etc.), you're stepping on a lot of people's toes by trying to alter that.



My point was that there are other kinds of marriage in our country. How does two gay people getting married (esp. if it's it's not a religious one) affect anybody else's life and/or beliefs at all?

Also, if that is stepping on their toes, then maybe they should stop championing the whole idea of religious freedom. Because ignoring the rights of minorities just because of the religion of a majority is the opposite of religious freedom.

Going by your logic, should we make it illegal for Muslims to get married? Should we make divorce illegal, because I'm pretty sure that violates "Christian ideals"? Should we start stoning adulterers like the bible tells us to?


----------



## MBMoreno

I'm not by any means defending Vik. All I meant was that this whole thing is already blown out of proportion (in the way the internet handled it, as Misha and Fred said for example, though he deserves it). 

And I'm pretty sure some of the people that bashed Vik the hardest will/would order a guitar from him anyway.


----------



## tacotiklah

Mik3D23 said:


> My point was that there are other kinds of marriage in our country. How does two gay people getting married (esp. if it's it's not a religious one) affect anybody else's life and/or beliefs at all?



A great analogy to further underline the quoted point:


----------



## Lord Voldemort

> That's not what I said. Judging people is wrong. Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody. If somebody can't handle the fact that their beliefs and choices aren't going to be accepted and condoned by every other person on this planet, then I don't see how they can make it through life.



This is incorrect.

There's nothing wrong with judging someone if there's fair cause to do so. For example, I'm judging Vik for his idiocy, seems fair. Secondly, homosexuality is not a choice. Thirdly, being disliked for something you're born with is very hurtful, check out the homosexual suicide stats. 

You seem like a pretty ignorant person, and unfortunately, disliking a group of people because they love eachother is pretty horrible. That's when being judgmental is wrong. 

You're on the wrong side of the history books, friend.


----------



## flint757

molsoncanadian said:


> - People who wish bad things for Vik.* People make mistakes*. It's part of life. I can't believe how quick people are to nail him to the cross, although I ABSOLUTELY understand why. I just think there are more things to consider at play.
> - I dont agree with the immediate harsh replies from the "good side." I think a more ammicable way of thinking about this is "it's a shame he thinks that way, hopefully someone can educate him on how harmful these views are." Granted, I dont think that would go far (as I mentioned earlier)
> - I personally, never wish harm on other people, there's so much that goes on in a person's life, external influences that shape the individuality of a person. I once read a quote that read something along these lines
> 
> "Every person in life is fighting their own personal invisible battles."
> 
> - How do we know Vik's father didn't raise Vik as such? Would it truly be fair to judge someone based on their respect for a parent's ideal's?
> 
> I know some of that is extrapolative, hypothetical, but when I see certain comments, its truly depressing. I never wish harm, poor fortune for another human being, period. That doesn't mean I can't harbour negative feelings, however, I'm not going to round people up and start a riot.



You're asking everyone to give respect to a man who offers none in return. You are correct that hateful people, violent people, burglars, murderers etc. are a product of their mental state and environment, but that literally applies to almost everyone on this planet actually as well. While it may not be directly his fault that he thinks this way it does not change the fact that he does think this way and at some point in our lives (adulthood) we become solely responsible for our thoughts and actions. The fact that he chose to 'spread the word' that he doesn't like gay people and then didn't even bother offering up even an insincere apology is very telling. The jokes he made were inappropriate. They were completely unnecessary if his goal was not to offend (especially for a business owner whether or not others approve) which leaves being offensive to be his only real goal.



Toxic Dover said:


> So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...
> 
> What Vik said was dick-ish, yes. Inappropriate for the head of a business to publicly state, sure. Did he actually mean, "I hate gay people"? I doubt it; but that's the way it was worded...



So if you don't know the guy personally, and his words explicitly make it seem like he hates gay people, what in the hell makes you believe that is not the case when all the evidence points to it being the case? Me thinks you are projecting a bit here.



Toxic Dover said:


> But in the past year since the whole "gay rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about gay people and the gay lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.
> 
> THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot.





You do realize it isn't really that one sided, right? Those who oppose gay rights and/or gay people in general can and do physical/emotionally abuse gays.* They also try and write laws that offer no benefit to themselves, but are intentionally in place to prevent gays from getting these rights.* You have a fundamentalist on nearly every street corner at every college spouting random hate against 'sluts', gays, and whatever deviance they feel the rest of the world is guilty of doing. These people fit firmly in the 'I disapprove' camp as well. It's not like gays/gay supporters are acting unprovoked here. If laws weren't being written to intentionally hinder their rights no one would give a shit what any Christian thought about it. That camp has an equally unwavering position on the issue. The only difference is their position is actively preventing people from doing what they should legally be allowed to do. People who sit on the fence like yourself merely validate the vocal portion of that group by agreeing with their words, but disapproving of their actions. When people are no longer abused, fired, etc. for things they have no control over and when laws are no longer written to intentionally 'punish' gay people is when people can sit comfortably in the middle as far as I'm concerned. Being gay does nothing to harm Christians or straight people. Passively and actively disliking gay people and/or their 'behavior' does though. That's the difference.

*Obviously not all do, but those firmly in the grey area do validate the hate of those that do. 

I have to ask though, which someone else already did as well, how does someone being gay affect you in any way for you to even have an opinion at all that could fall even slightly on the negative side of the discussion? If they can get married it does not prevent straight people from also getting married, generally you wouldn't even know unless someone told you so it isn't as if they can ruin your day by existing either, you don't need to give consent for others to have gay sex anymore than anyone else needs to give you consent (other than your partner obviously). 

People who sit in the middle passively support those who have hateful intentions. I don't mean you necessarily share their thoughts or ideals, but rather your position helps them far more than the LGBT community and the extreme religious position really benefits nobody while it does hurt a group of people. Like I said, gay people doing what straight people can has no effect whatsoever on anyone's day-to-day life anymore than anyone else might have an effect on it. Those who wish to prevent equal rights gain nothing by succeeding other than knowing that they 'stuck it to them'.



Toxic Dover said:


> There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone homosexuality, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?



This is because we are a secular nation with a mostly religious population. Since the 50's religious people have been chipping away at the secular portion so as to make laws that only benefit Christians and/or only make sense to Christians. We cannot write laws that benefit a single religion simply because nobody agrees on what is the correct religion or if their is a God at all. We can, however, make laws that benefit us as a culture and religious laws do not tend to do that.

It is Christian lobby groups who have been trying to prevent gays from being allowed to legally get married. What's funny is religion can only stop the legal portion of the marriage contract (the only part that really matters) through their lobbying. They can't technically stop you from getting a religious marriage. A religious marriage isn't even official until you get it approved by a judge if I'm not mistaken. A gay person could easily have a religious ceremony and a symbolic marriage nullifying any reason a religious person gives on the surface for preventing gay marriage rights.

Also, as someone previously pointed out, people of other faiths or of no faith can get married. Whether or not it is religious in nature is moot. If people who do not believe the same as you (general you) can get married then marriage in the US is not at its core a religious institution. The individual can make it so, but it is not in the least bit mandatory. I couldn't personally care less where its roots lay (origin is definitely not of Christian origin though).



Toxic Dover said:


> I have several gay friends. I don't agree with homosexuality for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.



Kudos I guess?

Here's the thing about your post, if you don't like the idea, but also don't care then there'd be no reason to say anything or even be bothered in the first place. There are really only two reasons to make one's opinion vocal on this subject, to express one's distaste for said group or to support them. There'd be no need for the latter if the prior didn't exist. 



Toxic Dover said:


> I absolutely agree in regards to the Vik situation: the things he said were written and taken, whether intentional or not, hatefully, and he should make amends for that. That's not what I'm arguing.
> 
> In a more general sense, anytime anybody expresses an opinion that deviates from the acceptance of the homosexual lifestyle, regardless of how delicately that opinion is expressed, more times than not the floodgates break loose and everybody jumps on the "ignorant, hate-filled bigot" bandwagon.



Yes, but that is off topic and really doesn't apply to this situation. The only reason you brought it up at all was to bring up your own personal position on the subject. You aren't 'lumped' in any group with anyone if you don't bring it up. Not saying to keep quiet, but really if you think gay people deserve the same rights as everyone else, disapprove of hateful bigots and ultimately wish your friends long and happy lives why would you need to express your negative thoughts on the subject? I don't like loads of things, but I generally keep it to myself if they have no real effect on me. Usually people only do so to validate or spread their opinions, neither of which, in this particular topic, are good things. 



Toxic Dover said:


> Forgive me, I didn't feel like reading through 18 pages of this.



That's your fault. By commenting without reading you are misinformed. 

Which brings me to another interesting point about fence sitters, you (again general you) justify bigotry of others so that you don't have to feel bad about disliking the way gay people are. It would've been off topic, but you could have made all of these general statements without basically dismissing or excusing his behavior yet time and time again fence sitters feel like they are also being attacked so they rally together. I don't think people would give those in the grey area such a hard time if they didn't validate hateful peoples opinions, intentional or not.



Toxic Dover said:


> Vik (or anybody for that matter) calling a human being a mistake because of a viewpoint is wrong, no question. Judging groups of people (PEOPLE THEMSELVES, not their life choices) is wrong, no question. My post was a bit more general in nature as opposed to a direct reflection upon the Vik drama; any person with a belief or disagreement with homosexuality in general is damned. It doesn't matter how much they emphasize that they do not hate the person, the group of people, whatever; just because they don't openly accept and condone a lifestyle decision, they're labeled because of it, and that's absolutely a double standard.



No one needs your approval though. That's the part of the religious discussion that has me rolling. Many Christians are not merely against it, but also actively trying to oppress it. That's why many pro-LGBT people do not find religion to be a good enough excuse.

I'll ask this again,


> how does someone being gay affect you in any way for you to even have an opinion at all that could fall even slightly on the negative side of the discussion?



What is there to be against? You're not gay, I get that, but what does anything else have to do with it. Religion condemns the act of being gay and while I don't agree with that logic I do get where it stems from. Under both of these scenarios though, what does it have to do with you? Answer is nothing at all. From a religious standpoint (not religious), it's supposedly in God's hands right? So why is there even a need for the religious community to have even mild distastes towards people being gay. Even if it isn't to the same level as a bigot it is still judgmental and your faith has loads to say about those who judge.

__________

As a segue, I feel like people tie being gay with gay sex exclusively. Many people consider themselves to be heterosexual even without ever actually having straight sex so why do people feel the need to label being gay any differently? Serious question. I feel like it is more tied to the propaganda surrounding it involving those who are actively or passively against the idea of people being gay. It allows them another reason to dislike it by making it a deviant sex behavior rather than simple sexual attraction of which we all tend to share.

__________



Toxic Dover said:


> If you're an atheist, agnostic, or whatever else, of course you're not going to see it as a religious institution. If you do subscribe to one of the many religious beliefs that hold it as some sort of a sacred bond, then you will view it as a religious institution.



In which it'd only be a religious act if you were in fact religious or doing it for religious reasons. That's why I don't get why people have such an issue with gay marriage. it isn't to preserve the religious nature of marriage as it does not have to be religious in nature to begin with.

As for its origin, it may or may not have began in religion, but it definitely was not invented by Christianity. Marriages were happening long before Christianity was even a thing.



Toxic Dover said:


> By definition, the term "marriage" has for years meant the union between one man and one woman. Just speaking for the United States, when over 3/4 of your population identifies as Christian or some flavor thereof (Catholic, Mormon, etc.), you're stepping on a lot of people's toes by trying to alter that.



I'm repeating myself at this point, but how exactly is it stepping on your toes? No one has forced religious institutions to perform gay marriages, no one is forcing you to go to gay marriages, no one is preventing straight people from getting married, no one is forcing you to be friends with gay people, no one is forcing you to watch gay people have sex, etc. (I could go on and on) so how does this step on ANYONES toes at all? In fact the religious right have done their best to intentionally step on gay peoples toes constantly.



Toxic Dover said:


> That's not what I said. Judging people is wrong. Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody. If somebody can't handle the fact that their beliefs and choices aren't going to be accepted and condoned by every other person on this planet, then I don't see how they can make it through life.



Here's the thing, those who don't approve seem to make it their business when it in fact isn't. No one is looking for your permission or approval. Condone, when applied to complete strangers who have no real effect on your life, is a rather odd choice of words to use. It seems those who disapprove feel like by allowing it to happen it is perceived as condoning the behavior which is stupid logic at best. The use of the word condone almost comes across as an authoritarian position like a parent talking to a child.



Toxic Dover said:


> Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody.



It in fact does hurt people even if you aren't the one doing it. Read through here for plenty of examples. And it is not a choice anymore than you chose to be heterosexual. It's not like you had to have sex first to figure that out.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

^ Award to longest most semi-pointless post in the history of Sevenstring.org


----------



## flint757

Wings of Obsidian said:


> ^ Award to longest most semi-pointless post in the history of Sevenstring.org



I'm sorry you found no merit in it, but that isn't really my problem now is it.


----------



## Explorer

Wow, a lot in this topic over the past few days!

A few points while I read it from start to finish:

Bigotry is a form of intolerance, but not all intolerance is bigotry. The Nazis were bigots. The Allies were intolerant of those bigots. I'm glad they were. 

Marriages which don't conform to Christianity's beliefs don't derive their legitimacy due to being Christian. To say that Hindu, Inuit or common-law marriage is called marriage in the US because the definition of "marriage" is a Christian construct is bullshit. 

I can decide to not support people who are prejudiced against my family and my friends. It's a freedom of association thing. If you don't agree that I have that right, if you feel that people shouldn't have that right, then you've undermined the ability of Vik to be a bigot at the same time. That kind of thinking is pretty apparent to those reading your comments, and you're coming across as unintelligent. Sorry, but someone had to tell you your fly is down.

To demand a loyalty clause from a customer, especially if such a loyalty clause was not part of the contract at the point of entering the contract, is going to be a problem for him legally. 

I had to rep Carvin. I'm glad to see them stepping up in a clear manner. 

Did someone seriously say they wanted someone to stop being flagrant about their sexual preferences? Oh, only because it was an orientation he didn't agree with. He's not calling for straight guys to not fawn over straight women, or to stop looking at butts and breasts. Oh, well, that's different... right? *laugh*

OMG, and then Vik saying he didn't ask for a form of loyalty oath. His backpedaling and changing story would undermine any assumptions of his truthfulness, if there weren't already the generally good reputation of the person who doesn't want to be seen as endorsing hate, to the point of not getting his money back. Ah, what a Vik....

When someone says that sexuality is a choice, I have to believe that those making such an assertion had to make a choice. I never did. None of my gay friends did, or my hetero friends. I just know that the poster had to turn away from their first inclination and *make* a choice. 

----

A hearty round of applause for all those who kept arguing that you shouldn't make a big deal out of someone being a bigot, but who felt good about calling out others on their intolerance of bigotry. Live and let live, unless you disagree with someone, right? On the matter of practicing what you preach - failage.

This was a lot to read and take in. I think I need to take a break and look at the Rondo site. Is the Hessian moving forward? Because that 8-string would definitely be my top lifestyle choice.... *laugh*


----------



## Toxic Dover

flint757 said:


> ...War and Peace...



Touché... You made some solid points that I can't argue with, especially about the nature of marriage in regards to people of religions other than Christian. Can't say I've ever thought of it that way... It's a valid argument. 

Cheers on the civil and level-headed debate; it's nice to see viewpoints presented without personal attacks!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Wings of Obsidian said:


> ^ Award to longest most semi-pointless post in the history of Sevenstring.org



I'll take a well-defined argument over a hashtag.


----------



## Slunk Dragon

Hoooooooooly crap, where was I on this thread?


Hope the dude likes flipping burgers, cuz he might have to do that soon if he keeps on going down this gravy train of grimey business practices.


----------



## Hollowway

Toxic Dover said:


> So, I've just got to say this because it's been irritating me for a while...
> 
> Anyway, onto the point I'm making... Sure, there are the small amount of people who truly don't like left handed people. They hate them because of their lefty orientation, and that's just plain wrong. Somebody's hand preference is none of anyone else's business. However, I don't think the vast majority of people have a problem with left handed people in and of themselves. But in the past year since the whole "left handed rights" thing has been a huge topic (publicly, anyway), people are categorized into two groups that I've seen: those who are all about left handed people and the left handed lifestyle, and those who don't agree with it for whatever reason (usually religious reasoning). Those who agree with it are fine; those who don't agree with it are attacked, labeled as "ignorant bigots," hate mongers, backwoods hicks, threatened, and outright harassed.
> 
> THIS is what pisses me off about this whole left handed rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot. There's no middle ground, which is absolutely unacceptable. You cannot go around preaching tolerance and acceptance and in the same breath condemn and attack somebody for having beliefs that differ from your own. It's hypocritical and asinine. Generally, the reason I've seen a large number of people give is that their religion is Christianity or a similar religion that doesn't condone left handedness, and when that is said, people start hurling insults that attack both the person and their religion. In what sane way is that acceptable?
> 
> I have several left handed friends. I don't agree with left handedness for several reasons, mainly my religion (Christianity), but none of those reasons are hateful. They're mature enough to accept that and we all have mutual respect for each other. I don't hate them, they're great people! And they're level headed enough to be perfectly fine with that. Does that make me an ignorant? No. Does that make me a bigot? Certainly not. Does that mean I have differing opinions on the world and the choices people make? Yes, and that's perfectly acceptable. Live and let live.





Given the ridiculous number of posts in this thread trying to explain the difference, and that people like you still don't get it, I think I'm wasting my time. But, in light of those that say we should attempt to educate, I guess I will. 

So, let's consider what racism, homophobia, misogyny, etc are. They're called prejudice, meaning that we are "prejudging" people. Meaning we are making a decision about them before we know anything about them. So you could say, "I'm not a racist, and I don't hate black people, but I don't want them living around me and I won't hire them to work for me." But you are judging these people before you get to know them. You're lumping them into a group and making a decision. The group is their "race." And then you are racist. So in your example of the gay people, you say that you don't agree with what they do. You know what that makes you? HETEROSEXUAL! But you say that you don't condone it, think it's ok to criticize it. You know what that makes you? HOMOPHOBIC. Yes, I understand you are not killing gays. And you have gay friends. But it is SO clear from your post that you are homophobic. There is no "gay lifestyle." Gays have the same lifestyles as straight people. They're just...gay! There is no "gay agenda." You have this sense that there is a large group people trying to put gay people in every home, and a smaller group of people who are the resistance. But that's not the case at all. The vast majority of people are fine with gay people, but make no effort to march in a Pride parade, sign a petition, or demonstrate. Not even all gays do that. There are a minority of people who are very politically pro-gay rights, and people who are against gays, like yourself. You say, "live and let live," but you can't do that yourself without saying you don't condone their lifestyle. You're not "letting live." 
And I think it's perfectly acceptable to speak out against people like yourself who disagree with homosexuality. You can't see it, because you look at homosexuality as a bad thing that some people are ok with. But read your post as quoted in my post here - I've replaced "homosexuality" with "left handedness." Does the post now sound riciduclous to you? Because that's how your original post sounded to the majority of the people in the Western Hemisphere. I know in your religion you were taught that being gay is a choice. But isn't it likely that it's not? Science says so.

Your post reminds be of two of my favorite quotes:

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." 
-Ghandi

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
-Burke


----------



## Andromalia

narad said:


> I see this misinterpreted a lot. Vik didn't send a message to Misha saying, "Look, Misha, I don't like the gays. I'm going to post about it this week.*  Do you have my back*, or do I have your guitar?"




In the context of this conversation, this had me spit my coffee.


----------



## SeaBeast

It's ironic that if Vik would have said "Congrats to Paul and Sean, you have Vik Guitars support!" that he would have grown his reputation positively. Even if he doesn't agree with the situation. 

He could have even just kept his mouth shut and been fine off. Instead he makes idiotic comments that definitely will have negative repercussions on his business.


----------



## Hollowway

I know some of you guys frequent MGO, so if you haven't checked it out, do so. The posts are 100% in agreement that Vik is way out of line, and this homophobia is ridiculous. Props to Chris and crew over there. 

Did anyone else see Vik Guitar's Vik Kuletski's comment about Cynic/headless guitars?


----------



## Slunk Dragon

I would think that the "metal" thing to do is not give a sh!t about other people's opinions or sexuality or whatever. If they're cool, they're cool. (In Vik the Dik's case, he's just a bigot, IMO)

Guess some people just don't get it.


----------



## Hyacinth

You don't have to like gay people, you don't have to like black people or brown people or any other person for that matter, but that doesn't mean you can come out and talk shit about them in a public forum like Facebook. Well, I guess you CAN do that, but people will think you're an intolerant asshole (Which Vik is) and, especially if you own a business, people will not want to buy your product. Who gives a shit what a luthier has to say about LGBT issues anyway?


----------



## Zalbu

I love when bigots play the Christian card to make it seem like they're being persecuted. Nobody even knew he was a Christian before this, try something else.


----------



## Tommy Deaks

What really amazes me is how wound up people get just because some people like to put their penises in butts/receive penises in their butts. 

How can anybody get themselves so wound up about something that really has no bearing on their life whatsoever? I can't remember who said this (to paraphrase) - "there's a million million galaxies in the observable universe. How can you know that and get annoyed by someone putting a cock up their arse?"

All this hatred directed towards gay people really boggles my mind. I know this has been said in some way or another a million times in this thread but I absolutely fail to see why anyone can "disagree" with gay people. It's anti-human. It's despicable.


----------



## Pezshreds

I know it's been said over, and over, but seriously...what the actual .....

I posted a facebook status supporting gay marriage about 8 or so months ago, lucky for me I got some of my very religious friends commenting on it, and also some of my very pro GLBT friends on it.

It's exactly like this thread. Majority supporting what should be standard human rights, equality for all. But then a couple of people bringing religion, and their own ideology of how they think this world should work, and don't agree with it because of their "personal beliefs". Also how they're doing everyone a favour by "tolerating" their choice (Because obviously every person who is gay/lesbian/transgender/bi/queer chose to be shunned and judged by such closed minded people like them). 

The fact that "not everyone being heterosexual" is even an issue is absolutely ....ing absurd.

I hope I live long enough for this bullshit "I tolerate gays, but don't agree with what they do" to never be said in a sentence again.

Seriously, people take their lives because of bullying, harassment and abuse they get from being GLBT. "Tolerating" is not good enough. People "choosing" shouldn't be an issue either. Whether someone is born gay, or chooses to be. It's their basic human right for them to live and be who they are with no persecution on their sexuality. What is honestly so hard to understand about that? 

I need to stop before I get banned for having a real dig at religion.


----------



## Explorer

One more thought:

This guy has a friend who just doesn't like bullies.







If you really don't understand why intolerance of bigotry is not the same as bigotry, then imagine defining his friend's actions as bigotry, and trying to argue that with others...


----------



## petereanima

Explorer said:


> If you really don't understand why intolerance of bigotry is not the same as bigotry..



I stated it earlier in this thread - this is the paradox of tolerance. "Absolute tolerance would be defenseless against intolerance, and it would lead to the disappearance of tolerance. Even further: Tolerance itself would be the evil, if it applies to intolerance."

I know, with quoting myself I come along a bit like a dick, but as it's ("y u no tolerate ma intolerance bra" ) brought up every 2 pages again, it doesn't hurt too much either.


Literature tip for "paradox of tolerance": Thomas Mann's Magic Mountain; Karl Popper - The Open Society; A history book


----------



## Hankey

Pezshreds said:


> The fact that "not everyone being heterosexual" is even an issue is absolutely ....ing absurd.



So much this!

As long as you're not hurting anyone, your sexual preference shouldn't be an issue to anyone...


----------



## UnderTheSign

Hankey said:


> So much this!
> 
> As long as you're not hurting anyone, your sexual preference shouldn't be an issue to anyone...


Unknown author... "I don't know why my sexuality matters to all those people I was never going to have sex with in the first place"


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

At least half of the first page google search results for "Vik Guitars" are about this issue. 

That's fvcking awesome.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Zalbu said:


> Nobody even knew he was a Christian before this



And nothing he's said during the entire incident would indicate as much either...


----------



## asher

Grand Moff Tim said:


> At least half of the first page google search results for "Vik Guitars" are about this issue.
> 
> That's fvcking awesome.


----------



## Konfyouzd

The Christian argument bothers me most when people do things like this:

My father is clearly a homophobe... Or whatever the most accurate term for it is... We've all pretty much agreed it's not an actual phobia.

But he'll say things like... 



> I don't have anything against it. But I'm just concerned about how God will judge those people at the end.



You mean to tell me, that if this person was an outstanding human being--model of human inner beauty for the entirety of his life, you're concerned that God will overtun ALL of that simply because he/she chose to have sex with something other than the opposite sex?

You serve a fvcking lunatic...


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

I'm just sitting here scratching my ass because you guys are all saying the same shit over and over AND OVER. STAHP!



Vik was an idiot and was wrong on every account. And the whole intoleration vs. toleration of intolerance thing is a stupid argument. Just let sleeping dogs lie.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Question... If that's the case, why are you still here?


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Konfyouzd said:


> Question... If that's the case, why are you still here?



I'm not. I logged out after yesterday, came back, saw a few more pages added, all saying the same shit pages 1-3, then posted. Now I'm leaving and logging out again.


----------



## MaxOfMetal

We've reached the level where someone is discussing when they logged in and out of the site. It's official, this thread has jumped the shark.


----------



## Konfyouzd

^To that I will concede...


----------



## redstone

.


----------



## redstone

petereanima said:


> I stated it earlier in this thread - this is the paradox of tolerance. "Absolute tolerance would be defenseless against intolerance, and it would lead to the disappearance of tolerance. Even further: Tolerance itself would be the evil, if it applies to intolerance."



Humans rights are not about tolerance but pacifism, all aggressions are (meant to be...) forbidden, whereas violence isn't. The real question is, is that an aggression or not ? Not "who's the most annoyed". That's how we (are supposed to) set the limits and decide who must step back, what's tolerable.


----------



## UnderTheSign

Wings of Obsidian said:


> _I'm just sitting here scratching my ass because you guys are all saying the same shit over and over AND OVER. STAHP!_
> 
> 
> 
> Vik was an idiot and was wrong on every account. And the whole intoleration vs. toleration of intolerance thing is a stupid argument. Just let sleeping dogs lie.


Reminds me of someones posts in a certain other thread...http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/luthiery-modifications-customizations/223317-etherial-guitars.html


----------



## asher

UnderTheSign said:


> Reminds me of someones posts in a certain other thread...http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/luthiery-modifications-customizations/223317-etherial-guitars.html



Let's not derail this thread into OT personal critiques too? We already had one escapade in the one in Dealers, and that's not horribly relevant.


----------



## Sang-Drax

Toxic Dover said:


> THIS is what pisses me off about this whole LBGT rights argument - either you praise, accept, condone, and promote it, or you're a hate filled bigot.



There really is no middle ground as far as equality is concerned. Either you accept us as equals or you don't. There's no such thing as "more or less equal". The way I see, it's pretty simple. Whenever I meet someone who thinks I shouldn't deserve the same treatment as any other human being, I deem them bigots and I would rather not be around that person.

Discrimination is only valid when it's possible to be reasonably explained. "My religion doesn't like you" isn't a valid argument, nor are unverifiable assumptions such as "men were made for women and vice-versa". So far, all arguments I've seen "against" homosexuality - as if that even made sense - are either mystic or blatantly inconsistent, and usually flawed on both their premise and conclusion.

If you don't have a reason to discriminate, then you're a bigot. You can be an enormous douche bigot and go around bashing gay people or a low-intensity bigot, who only considers LGBT love inferior but otherwise is not against coexisting with them. You're a bigot in either case, however.

Now, that's not to say you're not entitled your opinion. Of course you are! Anyone in the western world is free to be a horrible person. You're free to not like gays, Jews, blacks, Christians, whatever - *but you have to accept the consequences of the opinions you freely expose*.


----------



## Konfyouzd

Accountability... How does it work?


----------



## s4tch

OK, I read all 20 pages, uhh, that was some hard work. I'm not a native English speaker, so forgive me the simple language I'll use here.

I'm not Belarussian, but I live in Eastern Europe as Vik does, and I know a couple of Slovakian, Czech, Polish people pretty well, and I know that things are going very much the same way in these post-communist countries, so I'm guessing Vik lives in the same kind of society as I do. 

I'm not defending Vik by any means. He clearly was as arrogant as it gets throughout the whole story, from his first post to his last. I'm just saying that he's not to blame for something he never learned anything about. 

Tolerance is not something you learn as an adult, tolerance is something you should learn as a child. Christian societies in Eastern Europe are not too tolerant. I hate to say it: we Hungarians hate everybody. We hate the Russians for 40 years of occupation. That's something most of you US and West European guys were never aware of. We hate the French for territorial reasons. (After the WW1, 1/3 of Hungarian people were attached to the neighboring countries, those wounds would never heal.) We hate gypsies for not working and for living on subsidies. We hate Jews, Arabs, Chinese for their religions. We hate non-Caucasian people because of the color of their skin. (and so on) The average non-educated Eastern-European guy hates everybody. I'm sorry for that, I'm not saying that I agree even a bit, I'm just presenting you the situation. Hate is part of the national pride in a lot of countries.

Catholic priests won't help the situation either. It was pathetic and at the same time logical from Vik to play the Catholic card. I expected that. Never the Church did a thing for LGBT rights.

It is a political, social and religious issue here. That's not an issue of gay rights, that's a much deeper issue, and it will take lifetimes of generations when it begins to fade. I'm actually happy that this story escalated so quickly and I'm happy to read most of your comments, guys. I really hope that the definite and integrated reaction of the community will start some people thinking.

As for Vik himself: besides having been raised in a sick society, he clearly is a non-educated, ignorant man. A wise man would have known after the first critical reaction that the only right and intelligent move would have been to withdraw his comments and apologize, even if he wouldn't agree. With 'proving' his 'point' several times, and constantly attacking 'non-tolerant opinions', he just made things worst. I really hope he learns his lesson once. I strongly doubt it would happen, though.


----------



## hairychris

^ Well said, dude. Glad that you confirm that it's a societal issue.

I love visiting friends in Slovakia & Czech Republic (I've not been to Hungary, my apologies), but I would not want to live there as a LGBT person. The Catholic church is very powerful, especially in the smaller villages. I've met a few LGBT Slavs... there must be a reason why they are in the UK and not at home!

ps Slovaks don't like Hungarians very much either!


----------



## Yo_Wattup

Please excuse my ignorance but i havent read the last 10 pages and i think i speak for a few people when I ask: Has anything else happened in this thread or is it still just 

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick.

?


----------



## stevexc

Yo_Wattup said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but i havent read the last 10 pages and i think i speak for a few people when I ask: Has anything else happened in this thread or is it still just
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> ?



Pretty well. It's kinda been moreso

This guy is a dick.

This guy is a dick

This guy is a dick.

This guy just confirmed he's a dick again. 

This guy is a dick.

[repeat 100x]

Wait he's allowed to be hateful if you're allowed to hate him for it!

No he's not because of reasons.

[repeat 20x]

There's really very little new discussion going on here, but people keep popping by with ignorant and misguided notions about the whole thing, prompting more responses.


----------



## musicaldeath

Just be excellent to one another. That's all we need.


----------



## Cyn__Theia

stevexc said:


> There's really very little new discussion going on here, but people keep popping by with ignorant and misguided notions about the whole thing, prompting more responses.



The thread has been stuck in a loop of reiteration for the last two days (counting today).


----------



## Konfyouzd

Yo_Wattup said:


> Please excuse my ignorance but i havent read the last 10 pages and i think i speak for a few people when I ask: Has anything else happened in this thread or is it still just
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> This guy is a dick.
> 
> ?



Why did you read through more than half a page of that? Did no one learn to skim in school? I only keep opening it because it keeps working its way to the top... I know how you fix that...


----------



## Purelojik

Maybe we should just lock this thread up. I think everything's been said on all sides by now.


----------



## HurrDurr

Gonna start up a company called *Gay ViK Guitars* and start pumping out headless Dualities and ship in rainbow cases. stay tuned.

*Now* you can lock this thread.


----------



## Zado

The guy just condamned his businness I guess..I can understand many will refuse to purchase his products because of this.I'm not really in the best position to talk though,since my Schecter is made in a factory where asian workers's conditions are horrific,AFAIK...so yeah,human rights are rather encroached in both cases.


----------



## BouhZik

Hi guys! Since I don't really want to go in the "he is a dick" party and the "tolerance intolerated" nonsense, I'm going OT!! sorry for that



s4tch said:


> We hate the French for territorial reasons. (After the WW1, 1/3 of Hungarian people were attached to the neighboring countries, those wounds would never heal.)



I don't know how old you are, but I'm French, born early 80's and I'm "pretty sure" I have nothing to do with what happened in WWI, WWII or anything that happened beetwen.... so why hating French in 2014?? I'm not hating the German, and yet I lost some family in those wars. Every German I met were nice people. So why hating them?

Hell I'm not even involved in what happen TODAY. I have no control if my country decide to go to war in Africa or anywhere else....

IMHO this is not a political, social or religious issue there. this is a stupidity issue. plain and simple. 
I hate when people come at me on their high horses sayin' "without us, France would have been a german speaking nation" from 20 to 60 yo US guys.... they were not born at that time so they did nothing. Without De Gaulle (who had his flaws...), France would have been an English speaking nation. so pick your poison.

Winners write history. Are you lucky enough to be born on the "good side"? Nobody choose to be gay or straight, nor their country.... I didn't choose to be French as you didn't choose to be Hungarian.

Put everybody in the same bag for the stupidity one did 80y or 100y ago make you more stupid.

peace, et vive la France.


----------



## TemjinStrife

Purelojik said:


> Maybe we should just lock this thread up. I think everything's been said on all sides by now.



I'd like this to remain visible, as it provides a warning to potential customers about what they're dealing with. Locking the thread would cause it to disappear quite quickly.


----------



## s4tch

hairychris said:


> ^ Well said, dude. Glad that you confirm that it's a societal issue.
> 
> I love visiting friends in Slovakia & Czech Republic (I've not been to Hungary, my apologies), but I would not want to live there as a LGBT person. The Catholic church is very powerful, especially in the smaller villages. I've met a few LGBT Slavs... there must be a reason why they are in the UK and not at home!
> 
> ps Slovaks don't like Hungarians very much either!



[offtopic]
Hungary is also a fun country to visit. We have probably the finest wines in Europe, tasty foods, beautiful girls (and guys, too  ), and Budapest is one of the nicest cities in Europe. I have nothing against Prague or Kassa (Kosice), but the nights in Budapest are really something special. If you enjoy Slovakia, do yourself a favor, and visit us, too. 
[/offtopic]

I've been a teacher at a college for 12 years now. I'm still in touch with some of my former students. Just to confirm what you've wrote: one of those, a gay guy went all the way to London to find some peace...

National conflicts are an other story. There's always two sides to a coin, so I won't go into details, but after the WW1, Hungary has been treated pretty unfairly, even for a country that lost the war. Slovakia and Romania were the beneficiaries of the post-war peace treaties... Anyway, I'm in daily touch with some Slovak partners due to my work, and it's really a pleasure to work with them. I have nothing against foreign people. Ignorance, sloth, hostility, dumbness makes me angry. Color of skin, religion, sexual preference don't.


----------



## Explorer

I also think the topic should remain open. No one has gotten out of hand for the most part, and this way we have one place to put any new developments.

*If anyone feels that there is no further need to read or post about the topic... why are you currently reading this topic? **laugh*


----------



## BouhZik

s4tch said:


> [offtopic]
> Hungary is also a fun country to visit. We have probably the finest wines in Europe, tasty foods, beautiful girls (and guys, too  ), and Budapest is one of the nicest cities in Europe. I have nothing against Prague or Kassa (Kosice), but the nights in Budapest are really something special. If you enjoy Slovakia, do yourself a favor, and visit us, too.
> [/offtopic]
> 
> I've been a teacher at a college for 12 years now. I'm still in touch with some of my former students. Just to confirm what you've wrote: one of those, a gay guy went all the way to London to find some peace...
> 
> National conflicts are an other story. There's always two sides to a coin, so I won't go into details, but after the WW1, Hungary has been treated pretty unfairly, even for a country that lost the war. Slovakia and Romania were the beneficiaries of the post-war peace treaties... Anyway, I'm in daily touch with some Slovak partners due to my work, and it's really a pleasure to work with them. I have nothing against foreign people. Ignorance, sloth, hostility, dumbness makes me angry. Color of skin, religion, sexual preference don't.



OT: I gave you a "like" for this post, but.......... probably the finest wines in Europe??? COME ON MAN!!!!  (I already wanted to go and see Budapest, but now I have one more reason: taste those wines!!)


----------



## s4tch

BouhZik said:


> ...So why hating them?



I'm not saying I agree with the hatred, I'm just saying that haters will find a reason.

Je pourrais te donner une explication détaillée, mais je n'ai pas l'intention. Si tu veux en savoir plus, fais un petit recherche sur le traité de Trianon.



BouhZik said:


> Hell I'm not even involved in what happen TODAY. I have no control if my country decide to go to war in Africa or anywhere else....







BouhZik said:


> IMHO this is not a political, social or religious issue there. this is a stupidity issue. plain and simple.



You're saying that whoever hates is plain stupid? I won't agree with it. 

Let me tell you a short story. I went to a French-Hungarian high school, and I had the opportunity to visit France like 5-6 times via some student exchange programs. The first family I visited in Paris were the owners of a pretty big construction company. The father obviously wasn't stupid: he ran a successful company, he employed like 400 people, he managed the company pretty well. That requires some cleverness obviously. Still, he hated everything that came from the UK. He literally spat (!!!) on every Mini he saw. We went to visit Deauville. He proudly showed me the pavement of the port that was built by his company, then he saw a British boat, and shouted "roast beef" to the guy driving the boat. I didn't understand the reason for that. He explained me that he calls all British "roast beef" because British people have a pale skin that burns easily under the sun. 

Was he stupid? I wouldn't say that. He was a clever man. Was he bigot? Hell yes. Did he learn tolerance when he was a kid? No, never.

IMHO tolerance has nothing to do with mental capabilities. Even a smart person can be intolerant if raised in an intolerant environment. That becomes one's nature easily. That's a social issue.



BouhZik said:


> Winners write history. Are you lucky enough to be born on the "good side"? Nobody choose to be gay or straight, nor their country....



That's not a good analogy. (No pun intended.) Being Hungarian or French is not genetic. Being gay is. You can always switch your country, you can assimilate into every environment if you're willing to. Will you switch your sexual preference?



BouhZik said:


> Put everybody in the same bag for the stupidity one did 80y or 100y ago is even more stupid.







BouhZik said:


> OT: I gave you a "like" for this post, but.......... probably the finest wines in Europe??? COME ON MAN!!!!  (I already wanted to go and see Budapest, but now I have one more reason: taste those wines!!)



You must be French, right?  Just kidding.  Wines are a matter of taste of course. I love French some wines, too. You have beautiful red wines, I tasted some of the finest wines I've ever seen near Dijon. But I think Hungarian wines are more consistent, have more variety (especially white wines), and are a lot cheaper. I mean a lot. If you learn your way around the country and the different wineries, with some research, you can have a bottle of perfect Riesling at Sopron for about 5-7 euros, and that would be just as good as a Riesling will get. In France, you will pay 50 or more for a bottle like that... I'm sure you'll love Hungarian wines and foods.  Drop me a PM before you come to visit us, I'd be happy to help you out with some advice.


----------



## redstone

s4tch said:


> IMHO tolerance has nothing to do with mental capabilities. Even a smart person can be intolerant if raised in an intolerant environment. That becomes one's nature easily. That's a social issue.



It has something to do with tolerance for uncertainty.. (so do faith). <<click


----------



## HurrDurr

So wait, does ViK hate wine too? I don't understand where this thread is going right now...


----------



## neotronic

s4tch said:


> I'm not Belarussian, but I live in Eastern Europe as Vik does, and I know a couple of Slovakian, Czech, Polish people pretty well, and I know that things are going very much the same way in these post-communist countries, so I'm guessing Vik lives in the same kind of society as I do.



I don't know how about other czech cities, but here in Prague most people dont care at all if you are gay or straight. Gay/lesbian people are allowed to have sort of marriage (legally it is marriage except, they can not adopt childern yet, but I bet it will change soon).


yeah, and fsck Vik.


----------



## Paul McAleer

pls pretty pls


----------



## bulb

So here's a fun update:
Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now. 

Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...


----------



## asher

What hell the fvck?


----------



## ramses

bulb said:


> So here's a fun update:
> Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now.
> 
> Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...



  

This is beyond horrible. I just hope you'll get your money back soon, and that all the remaining customers won't have to go through more bs.


----------



## CloudAC

bulb said:


> So here's a fun update:
> Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now.
> 
> Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...



What a complete asshole.


----------



## bulb

There was a customer of Vik's who hit me up, actually, because he tried to get a refund with this whole situation going on and Vik refused him.


----------



## AxeHappy

It's also extortion and illegal as ..... 

To all those asking for a lock, no. These topics should be pinned. This should not be lost. There were others saying that this would blow over in a week or so and we're all just whiny hypocrites. 

Lets not prove them right. Boycott ViK and anyone else who is anti-human.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

bulb said:


> So here's a fun update:
> Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now.
> 
> Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...





> There was a customer of Vik's who hit me up, actually, because he tried to get a refund with this whole situation going on and Vik refused him.



And people are saying we're criticizing him and ruining his business ONLY because of his "opinions."


----------



## bulb

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> And people are saying we're criticizing him and ruining his business ONLY because of his "opinions."



I was originally willing to leave the whole thing be at first. I thought it might a joke in poor taste, and I offered to just take the guitar I waited two years for and already paid for, and stay out of the whole mess because nothing good would come of it.

Then Nolly showed me this message that he got sent as a result of his statement:





https://www.dropbox.com/s/vprcd0usrm7z01j/Screenshot 2014-05-13 10.14.01.jpg 
It's so unapologetically hateful. We were both incredulous. I am sorry but I can't agree with this "opinion", and I can't be associated with or stay quiet about someone like this.

He did this to himself.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

I wasn't criticizing you, I was agreeing with you. I was talking about people who think others are only going this far because he said he had a simple opinion.


----------



## Mik3D23

bulb said:


> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vprcd0usrm7z01j/Screenshot%202014-05-13%2010.14.01.jpg


----------



## OmegaSlayer

> Tolerance: /&#712;t&#594;l(&#601r(&#601ns/
> the ability or willingness to tolerate the existence of opinions or behaviour that one dislikes or disagrees with.



I'm tolerant with gays, but I can't expect that all the World has to be tolerant.
I don't wish failure to a record store business if the owner doesn't like heavy metal and openly say it.

Forcing tolerance into other people's throat is...FIRST an act of intolerance per se, SECOND...it won't work and will only make things worse.

If you guys think that boycotting someone for his opinions is the right thing to do...sorry, you're doing it wrong.
Hate leads just to more hate.

This guy Vik lost some work in this accident, who will he blame? Himself? No. Customers? No. Gays? You can bet your best guitar on it.
So...who won? NO ONE.

It's "fun" because I can bet that most of the people closing business with Vik, because he's a homophobe, surely has some thing at home that is the result of work in slavery condition, like shoes made by children working insane shifts and in toxic envyronments or might have purchased "substances", and the money they paid goes to criminal organizations or to some Country to wage war.

Just as people has the right to like pizza, other people has the right to not like pizza, the point is to keep things civil and not hypocrite.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Can someone edit the title or OP? Make it say that the only way to post here is to read EVERY SINGLE PAGE?

I mean, for fvck's sake. You're like the 20th person to comment here with that.


----------



## bulb

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I wasn't criticizing you, I was agreeing with you. I was talking about people who think others are only going this far because he said he had a simple opinion.



Oh I didn't mean to give off that impression. I am sorry, I am just really saddened and frustrated with this whole situation and just kinda wanted to vent, I wasn't directing that at you, my bad!!


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Don't worry, you're still cool in my book.


----------



## VigilSerus

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Can someone edit the title or OP? Make it say that the only way to post here is to read EVERY SINGLE PAGE?
> 
> I mean, for fvck's sake. You're like the 20th person to comment here with that.



Especially considering what Misha literally just posted above him. It seems there's a common theme with people who say this isn't a problem, they tend to not know even 20% of the situation.


----------



## Rev2010

Wow, so Vik think gays will eventually lead to the end of humanity?  I was always hoping they'd save us from an endless barrage of exponential overpopulation and resource depletion! Doesn't he realize homosexuality has been in humanity since as long as we've existed?? He;s really gone off the deep end. I'm quite surprised this is only coming out now seeing how hateful and vocal he's now being about it. Mr. Hyde shit right here. 


Rev.


----------



## downburst82




----------



## Esp Griffyn

This guy is a mastermind at torpedoing his own business. This is a Gerald Ratner moment for the guitar industry. While I understand he was already on shakey ground with some due to some less than brilliant customer service issues, this open bigotry and intolerance towards homosexuals is old fashioned, short sighted and as I hope he's starting to see, deeply unwelcome in a decent society.

I find intolerance to be abhorrent. It's appalling. That someone like Vik believes he can spew these vile statements out onto the internet and there would be no repercussion is ludicrous, but he is such a crass buffoon I think he probably believed he could say what he liked without ramification. And HeHasTheJazzHands called it, the "edgy" types would soon be crawling out of the woodwork to defend him for having an "opinion". It would be a hell of a lot harder to defend him if he said something like "I don't like blacks", but being gay is no different to being black in the sense that neither are something the individual get's a choice in, neither can be changed. And yet, Vik seems to live in some sort of environment where this bilge he's writing is normalised - he doesn't seem to realise the impact of what he is saying. I can only hope his sales figures reflect it in the future. He needs an attitude adjustment.

If I owned a Vik, I'd be looking to sell it quickly. If I had paid for a build, I'd be looking for a deposit - glad I'm not in that boat as he doesn't seem to like giving deposits back. I wouldn't want to put money in the pocket of someone who thinks like that, just as I wouldn't buy a guitar from a racist.

Maybe this will be a learning experience for Vik, but I doubt it. He'll continue as before, to blame anyone but himself as his business tanks, and people buy guitars from people who aren't hateful bigots instead.


----------



## AndruwX

What if Vik is a closet homosexual?


----------



## Vostre Roy

AndruwX said:


> I bet Vik anally masturbates.





AndruwX said:


> What if Vik is a closet homosexual?



Seriously man, this ain't funny or contributing in anything, just stop now.


----------



## Xaios

bulb said:


> I was originally willing to leave the whole thing be at first. I thought it might a joke in poor taste, and I offered to just take the guitar I waited two years for and already paid for, and stay out of the whole mess because nothing good would come of it.
> 
> Then Nolly showed me this message that he got sent as a result of his statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vprcd0usrm7z01j/Screenshot 2014-05-13 10.14.01.jpg
> It's so unapologetically hateful. We were both incredulous. I am sorry but I can't agree with this "opinion", and I can't be associated with or stay quiet about someone like this.
> 
> He did this to himself.



Ho. Lee. Shit. 

There just aren't any words to respond to this.


----------



## ramses

bulb said:


> I was originally willing to leave the whole thing be at first. I thought it might a joke in poor taste, and I offered to just take the guitar I waited two years for and already paid for, and stay out of the whole mess because nothing good would come of it.
> 
> Then Nolly showed me this message that he got sent as a result of his statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vprcd0usrm7z01j/Screenshot 2014-05-13 10.14.01.jpg
> 
> It's so unapologetically hateful. We were both incredulous. I am sorry but I can't agree with this "opinion", and I can't be associated with or stay quiet about someone like this.
> 
> He did this to himself.



Very disheartening. Talking like that to someone who helped him so much and brought him so much business.


----------



## BlackMastodon

I can't believe he's refusing to refund customers' money over this. Oh wait, I totally can because he's a piece of shit and has done this before very recently. If this didn't put the final nail in his business's coffin, then all of his other shitty practices (including extortion as AxeHappy mentioned which is *pretty goddamned* *illegal*) were sure to sink him in the next few months.

F**k this guy, I honestly don't know how anyone can defend him anymore and I really hope people still aren't trying. If he's refusing to give you your money back then open a lawsuit now. We've seen what waiting does with the BRJ fiasco, the sooner people act in a legal fashion to get their money back the better.


----------



## s4tch

bulb said:


> ...he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now. ...



Incredible.

If I had a written proof of that, I'd immediately contact a lawyer and my credit card company or paypal. (I have no idea how this guy takes payments.) I thought you'd get the refund without any further complications. It's not only about LGBT rights anymore, it's about your - and presumably others' - hard earned $$$, too.


----------



## DavidLopezJr

s4tch said:


> It's not only about LGBT rights anymore, it's about your - and presumably others' - hard earned $$$, too.


Don't take my tone wrong as I fully believe his statements against the LGBT community are horrible but for the last year Vik has been the worst businessman and screwing guys over with wait times, deposits, and refunds. It has been about hard earned money for a while now but he is just digging himself deeper everyday now. Vik is an embarrassment to luthiers who take pride of taking care of their customers.

Disappointing that it's taking his awful statements to bring up him ....ing customers over more to light.


----------



## Hyacinth

How can this dude say all this shit and think that his business will be just fine?


----------



## Promit

Just when I thought this was running out of life. Those messages to Nolly, holy crap.


----------



## capoeiraesp

Sorry if this has been asked or covered already but what's Dave Oh's stance on all this? Surely he can't standby Vik and his absurd behaviour and business practices?


----------



## Edika

bulb said:


> So here's a fun update:
> Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now.
> 
> Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...



Boy Vik has an inflated ego and sense of self importance. That is why he is behaving like that and sent these replies to Nolly. He obviously miscalculated the backlash he would have by yours and Nolly's statements. He obviously lives in the past were he thinks he won't have any legal repercussions from people outside Belarus (international commerce laws don't ring a bell) and/or that you won't go through the hassle and expenses to get your money back. And thinking money is as important to you as it is to him, he can use it to blackmail you to do some damage control.

You know Misha when you first posted your statement I was a bit puzzled and skeptic why you didn't just of ask for a refund and initially asked when he would send you the guitar. It seemed to me like you took the moral choice after Vik tried to corner you with his shady tactics. I know it won't mean much to you, since my opinion wouldn't matter to you anyway, but I whole heartily apologize. The guy is a monumental dick and you really handled the situation wisely. I had to take that off my chest.


----------



## baryton

Since the Beginning of this story I stayed as a spectator, seeing, reading all this reactions here, on facebook etc...
I not agree at all with Vik, i've gay friend even my godparent (one of the greatest person I had in my life).
But 
Does one of you consider where live Vik? Where he grew up? 
ex-USSR Belarus, one of the most closed european country with not so much freedom and a very hard government under the control of the last european dictator Lukashenko, there Homosexuality still a real taboo and people are not so open minded. In France Gay marriage was voted one year ago and many people here are against, when i see how it's hard to change our perception in my land, the cradle of the human right, it's hard to think how it can be in Belarus... To me communication is always better than bashing and honnestly what said Vik will not change our life or prevent the earth of turning.
Probably, surely, Vik is a dick but all this madness is completely overreacted!

One last thing that make me unconfortable it's all this reaction from all this famous guitarist, Mister Mansoor with his Fb statut, _i ordered a Vik blablabla I cancelled it blablabla, my morale blablabla_?... who give a shit? then Meirrow, Brum, Marschall, De Maio all this famous people give me the impression to avail a situation to promote their own ego, to show people how nice they are, how we have to think. A great picture of self-masturbation...


----------



## ImNotAhab

Not to derail or take away from the seriousness of the topic but while reading his comments all i kept thinking is McBane/Wolfcastle:


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

baryton said:


> Since the Beginning of this story I stayed as a spectator, seeing, reading all this reactions here, on facebook etc...
> I not agree at all with Vik, i've gay friend even my godparent (one of the greatest person I had in my life).
> But
> Does one of you consider where live Vik? Where he grew up?
> ex-USSR Belarus, one of the most closed european country with not so much freedom and a very hard government under the control of the last european dictator Lukashenko, there Homosexuality still a real taboo and people are not so open minded. In France Gay marriage was voted one year ago and many people here are against, when i see how it's hard to change our perception in my land, the cradle of the human right, it's hard to think how it can be in Belarus... To me communication is always better than bashing and honnestly what said Vik will not change our life or prevent the earth of turning.
> Probably, surely, Vik is a dick but all this madness is completely overreacted!
> 
> One last thing that make me unconfortable it's all this reaction from all this famous guitarist, Mister Mansoor with his Fb statut, _i ordered a Vik blablabla I cancelled it blablabla, my morale blablabla_?... who give a shit? then Meirrow, Brum, Marschall, De Maio all this famous people give me the impression to avail a situation to promote their own ego, to show people how nice they are, how we have to think. A great picture of self-masturbation...



I give up. 
I ....ing give up.

Also, if you think everyone criticizing ViK are just trying to inflate their ego, then... I don't even have any words for that. Good ....ing god.


----------



## capoeiraesp

^a potentially great meme ruined by incorrect grammar.


----------



## Hyacinth

baryton said:


> Since the Beginning of this story I stayed as a spectator, seeing, reading all this reactions here, on facebook etc...
> I not agree at all with Vik, i've gay friend even my godparent (one of the greatest person I had in my life).
> But
> Does one of you consider where live Vik? Where he grew up?
> ex-USSR Belarus, one of the most closed european country with not so much freedom and a very hard government under the control of the last european dictator Lukashenko, there Homosexuality still a real taboo and people are not so open minded. In France Gay marriage was voted one year ago and many people here are against, when i see how it's hard to change our perception in my land, the cradle of the human right, it's hard to think how it can be in Belarus... To me communication is always better than bashing and honnestly what said Vik will not change our life or prevent the earth of turning.
> Probably, surely, Vik is a dick but all this madness is completely overreacted!
> 
> One last thing that make me unconfortable it's all this reaction from all this famous guitarist, Mister Mansoor with his Fb statut, _i ordered a Vik blablabla I cancelled it blablabla, my morale blablabla_?... who give a shit? then Meirrow, Brum, Marschall, De Maio all this famous people give me the impression to avail a situation to promote their own ego, to show people how nice they are, how we have to think. A great picture of self-masturbation...



I disagree with you on almost all your points.

1. If he was just a small local luthier in Belarus, he could probably get away with saying all those homophobic things and get away with it. Because if Belarus is how you say it is regarding homosexuality, most people there would probably agree with him and there'd be no issue. However, he does business internationally where his views are archaic and are no longer acceptable.

2. People look up to Misha, Nolly, Per Nilsen, Keith Merrow, Ola Englund, etc. Their opinions mean a lot to the metal community in the USA and abroad, so their statements are warranted and people most certainly care what they have to say. Most people expressed their distaste for Vik's remarks to distance themselves from him as much as possible. Vik was/is a pretty big name as far as luthiers go and I'm sure a lot of people looked up to him the way they look up to the above mentioned guitarists.

3. LGBT rights are a big issue in the world at the moment and most people know and are close to LGBT people so these kind of homophobic remarks hit close to home with a lot of people.

The only thing I agree with you on is that Vik is a dick.


----------



## TemjinStrife

bulb said:


> So here's a fun update:
> Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now.
> 
> Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...



Well, at least he treats all his customers equally 

Thanks for letting us know the truth.

If there's any question that the dude is a spineless asshole, this settles it.


----------



## baryton

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> I give up.
> I ....ing give up.
> 
> Also, if you think everyone criticizing ViK are just trying to inflate their ego, then... I don't even have any words for that. Good ....ing god.



Don't say what i didn't said, I'm not speaking for "everyone" just for some who easily took it as an opportunity, does anyone here knew Mansoor had ordered a Vik 2 years ago? not me, his statut was totally opportunist, then it's just my opinion and this is not because this or that guitarist tell me what they think it will change anything.


----------



## possumkiller

Holy shit. I haven't been following the whole Vik internet show for a few weeks and I come back to a thread with this many pages about him making rude remarks in public and holding peoples' guitars hostage including ARTISTS! Glad I couldn't afford a Vik lol. Don't give that dude your money guys it's another BRJ scam!

I just don't get why people have such a big problem with sexual orientation. I am not gay at all. The thought of sex with a man turns me way off. However, sexual preference is just that. I prefer women. Some guys prefer guys. Who the hell cares as long as nobody gets hurt? People argue over whether being gay is a choice or not. Who the hell cares? Why does it bother people so much? 

I get the part about it being in the bible and the religious people putting it down. It's just a shame that the religious people can pay so much attention to that one line and remember it so well yet find it so difficult to remember something as simple as Matthew 7:1-3 


Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (for those who don't want to look it up)

Basically it means mind your own damned business and take a look in the mirror before you think about talking shit or else be prepared to get the same in return.


----------



## asher

Your sig could not fit better


----------



## Hyacinth

possumkiller said:


> Holy shit. I haven't been following the whole Vik internet show for a few weeks and I come back to a thread with this many pages about him making rude remarks in public and holding peoples' guitars hostage including ARTISTS! Glad I couldn't afford a Vik lol. Don't give that dude your money guys it's another BRJ scam!
> 
> I just don't get why people have such a big problem with sexual orientation. I am not gay at all. The thought of sex with a man turns me way off. However, sexual preference is just that. I prefer women. Some guys prefer guys. Who the hell cares as long as nobody gets hurt? People argue over whether being gay is a choice or not. Who the hell cares? Why does it bother people so much?
> 
> I get the part about it being in the bible and the religious people putting it down. It's just a shame that the religious people can pay so much attention to that one line and remember it so well yet find it so difficult to remember something as simple as Matthew 7:1-3
> 
> 
> Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? (for those who don't want to look it up)
> 
> Basically it means mind your own damned business and take a look in the mirror before you think about talking shit or else be prepared to get the same in return.



Jesus doesn't even speak about homosexuality. Also the bible says you can't eat crawfish or you're going to hell.


----------



## Mik3D23

MatthewLeisher said:


> Jesus doesn't even speak about homosexuality. Also the bible says you can't eat crawfish or you're going to hell.



Nor can you eat the fat or blood of any living thing. Whatever crimes you commit are also supposed to be paid back to you in the same manner.

But let's not derail this into a bible fest haha


----------



## stevexc

baryton said:


> Don't say what i didn't said, I'm not speaking for "everyone" just for some who easily took it as an opportunity, does anyone here knew Mansoor had ordered a Vik 2 years ago? not me, his statut was totally opportunist, then it's just my opinion and this is not because this or that guitarist tell me what they think it will change anything.



What you knew or didn't know about Misha ordering a ViK is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is that Misha, being a public figure who does (amongst other things) geaer reviews, would be known publicly to have received a ViK guitar while being aware of the whole situation, which implies that he is either indifferent to or in agreement with Vik's now public stance on LGBTQ rights. This gives him the choice to either let Vik make whatever statement he wants when Misha recieves the guitar, or make the first statement that he is opposed and does not want to be associated with it.

Misha is not some random Joe like you or me. Misha (as well as Vik) is a public figure and as such is held to different standards in terms of their public presence. This is the reason why Public Relations is as big an industry as it is - people care about what public figures do and say. Misha just did what he had to in order to ensure his actions (receiving vs cancelling the order) and his words (supporting LGBTQ rights) are in alignment so as not to give HIM bad publicity.


----------



## possumkiller

asher said:


> Your sig could not fit better


 
HAHAHA I completely forgot about that! That was from the CIA torture thread in the politics section.



MatthewLeisher said:


> Jesus doesn't even speak about homosexuality. Also the bible says you can't eat crawfish or you're going to hell.



I know right? Why the hell can they just pick and choose which parts of the bible are legit? According to a lot of people I know, the bible is the infallible word of god and should be interpreted literally. 

Don't get me wrong though, Vik is entitled to his own opinion just like every other human being. If he doesn't like gay people fine whatever that's his business. However, he definitely should've kept it to himself if he wanted to make anything out of his guitar business. Going around publicly bashing on anyone for anything really is unprofessional and unethical. All it will do is lose friends and customers as well as whatever networking he had done with other companies. Nobody would touch him now. Even if there are other artists out there who do share his opinion on homosexuality, I doubt they would want an endorsement deal with him.


----------



## Zalbu

Jesus, that guy is lucky that he's dealing with Nolly, the nicest guy on the planet. Nolly said his and dropped it and Vik is sending that crap to him?


----------



## Hollowway

Two things I've learned from this:
1) Most of the people here are super cool people with a lot of empathy and humanity, and are the kind of people I want to hold up as excellent examples of what good people metal musicians are.
2) Some people, despite numerous attempts to educate them, still see racism and homophobia as the same thing as not likening a particular type of food or music. And while I would attempt to explain this further to them, I will not. However, the hypocrisy of those who say Vik should not be criticized, but educated, because he just doesn't understand how him not liking something could make certain people angry, but that not liking gays is the same as not liking a color or food type is the same, is priceless.

Edit: Also, props to Nolly, Bulb, et. al. who could have opportunistically parlayed the situation into a financial gain endorsement deal, but instead took the high road to do the right thing.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

Hollowway said:


> 2) Some people, despite numerous attempts to educate them, still see racism and homophobia as the same thing as not likening a particular type of food or music.



_EDIT: DISREGARD. I misread your post. I thought you said people think being gay is like not liking a certain food. I'm going to keep this here, though, because I like what I said, haha._

In a way, it is.

BEAR WITH ME BEFORE POUNCING, PEOPLE.

People don't choose what foods or music they like any more than they choose what gender they like or the color of their skin. 

Now, that actually works _against_ the homophobes and racists, because they would sound absolutely absurd if they went around ranting against and trying to take rights away from people who don't like coffee, or who love R&B. If they'd stop for a minute and realize their homophobia is just as ridiculous, then they'd...

...probably keep right on being homophobes, because you can't fix stupid .


----------



## possumkiller

Hollowway said:


> Two things I've learned from this:
> 1) Most of the people here are super cool people with a lot of empathy and humanity, and are the kind of people I want to hold up as excellent examples of what good people metal musicians are.
> 2) Some people, despite numerous attempts to educate them, still see racism and homophobia as the same thing as not likening a particular type of food or music. And while I would attempt to explain this further to them, I will not. However, the hypocrisy of those who say Vik should not be criticized, but educated, because he just doesn't understand how him not liking something could make certain people angry, but that not liking gays is the same as not liking a color or food type is the same, is priceless.


 
I can see people liking people in the same kind of way as they like types of music or food. I mean, I kind of see my sexual preferences in that way. I look for things that I like and that bring me pleasure. However, just because I dislike cauliflower or hip hop doesn't mean that I believe cauliflower and hip hop are wrong or shouldn't be allowed to exist. Hip hop and cauliflower have never harmed me and I really don't mind if other people enjoy it. Now if I were to go on a rant about how cauliflower and hip hop are an abomination and should be exterminated that would be wrong. Hate itself is unhealthy for the haters and the hates but, even if I outright hated hip hop and cauliflower it would still be my own opinion. Ignorant people have a right to an opinion just as much as anyone else. Unfortunately lol. I am 30 years old. It was not that many years ago that I was an ignorant and intolerant asshole. Honestly, in the grand scheme of life I still consider myself to be ignorant. I have learned a lot in my life and there is a lot left to learn. However, some people will just never allow their mind to open.

One of the main problems is people defining other people by race, orientation or name any other thing. That guy is gay. So what? I am quite sure that isn't the only thing he has accomplished. He could also be a very good fireman who saved people from burning to death. That lady is white! So what?! I am sure she is many other things as well. People are far more complex than being simply black, white, gay or straight.


----------



## Explorer

s4tch said:


> Incredible.
> 
> If I had a written proof of that, I'd immediately contact a lawyer and my credit card company or paypal. (I have no idea how this guy takes payments.) I thought you'd get the refund without any further complications. It's not only about LGBT rights anymore, it's about your - and presumably others' - hard earned $$$, too.



Actually, even without a lawyer, if you have in writing that he refuses to deliver what you paid for unless you endorse his views, I believe that PayPal, Visa and other companies will view that as a merchant breaking the original contract. If you present proof of someone violating the credit card/PayPal terms of use, you get your money back.

If Vik is still associated with such services, the financial service will side with you against the person who blatantly violated the terms of service.

Don't make it about the bigotry, except to state that just as Vik made his views public, you made your disagreement with such views public as well. That has nothing to do with his violating the terms, and you had already fulfilled your side when you paid. He's the one who is out of compliance, and if you have it in writing that he not only failed to comply, but also attempted to extort something from you before delivering, I can't imagine you'll not get your money back.

Plus, Vik will have a hard time getting a processor to take him on wiht a huge black mark next to his credit bona fides. 

Good luck!

----

*And to all those who want a lock and don't want to read this stuff anymore... WHY YOU LOOKING?*!!!


----------



## ramses

bulb said:


> I was originally willing to leave the whole thing be at first. I thought it might a joke in poor taste, and I offered to just take the guitar I waited two years for and already paid for, and stay out of the whole mess because nothing good would come of it.
> 
> Then Nolly showed me this message that he got sent as a result of his statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vprcd0usrm7z01j/Screenshot 2014-05-13 10.14.01.jpg
> It's so unapologetically hateful. We were both incredulous. I am sorry but I can't agree with this "opinion", and I can't be associated with or stay quiet about someone like this.
> 
> He did this to himself.



Please let us know if Vik ever decides to refund your money or not.


----------



## VigilSerus

Here's an incredibly relevant song:

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/equalvision/i-dug-a-grave[/SC]


----------



## bulb

ramses said:


> Please let us know if Vik ever decides to refund your money or not.



Thankfully he literally just sent me my refund. At least he didn't turn out to be a thief in the end. Everyone else who is trying to get refunds can feel free to reference my refund if he happens to give you trouble about it.


----------



## DaddleCecapitation

Vik message to Nolly about the end of humanity has to be one of the funniest things anyone has ever said.


----------



## Andromalia

s4tch said:


> [offtopic]
> Hungary is also a fun country to visit. We have probably *the finest wines in Europe*, tasty foods, beautiful girls (and guys, too  ), and Budapest is one of the nicest cities in Europe. I have nothing against Prague or Kassa (Kosice), but the nights in Budapest are really something special. If you enjoy Slovakia, do yourself a favor, and visit us, too.
> [/offtopic]


Yeah I can see why you would hate the French believing that.


----------



## Necris

bulb said:


> So here's a fun update:
> Vik originally told me that he was going to refund me my money at some point today, but he literally just tried to convince me to tell everyone I was lying in my statement about him, and in exchange he would pay me back right now.
> 
> Just when you think he can't sink any lower...I just want my money back and I want to move on from this whole mess. I am as sick of this as the rest of you guys at this point...




Requesting pics for proof, because holy shit, I can't wrap my head around it. I believe it, but my brain is telling me "No, no-one would be that stupid."

To put it in gif form:


----------



## MarmaladeMad

While searching about Vik Guitars, i found..this. Golden.

[SC]https://soundcloud.com/josephparry/heres-to-you-vik-mm[/SC]


----------



## Maku

I love how it has come so far that he is actually being terrorized for mentioning his views, and people, who are fighting for tolerance, are the ones who are TRYING to destroy a life/a business of (reference to nolly's earlier posts in facebook) the luthier who made DA B3ST G33T4R EVAR.


----------



## AxeHappy

To fight for tolerance one must fight against intolerance. It's pretty straightforward. 

I don't know why some people can't grasp this. And I don't know why they keep bringing the same bullshit excuses for small minded bigotry up over and over again.


----------



## rjnix_0329

People fighting intolerance have nothing to do with destroying Vik's business. He did that himself. Consumers are free to give their money to whomever they feel comfortable with. Just because he has the right to speak freely doesn't mean he has the right to own a thriving business.


----------



## Shimme

Maku said:


> I love how it has become so far that he is actually being terrorized for mentioning his views, and people, who are fighting for tolerance, are the ones who are TRYING to destroy a life/a business of (reference to nolly's earlier posts in facebook) the luthier who made DA B3ST G33T4R EVAR.



Is he or his family being threatened? No? Then taking your money elsewhere, or advising people to take their money elsewhere is a completely legitimate action when someone talks sh!t about 3-4% of the human population.

I realize (and I really don't mean to pigeonhole you, I just realize that this is generally true) that many cultures in eastern Europe have a negative view on homosexuality, and won't tolerate it, so this kind of reaction can seem bizarre, but to most cultures in North America and Western Europe this is no different than if Vik had seen Tosin Abasi showing off some mahogany body guitar and saying "You know what, I've never liked mahogany for guitars, and now I know why. It's because I think black people suck."


----------



## Maku

I'm certain that this rant would go on forever, but the point I'm trying to make is that all the 'tolerant' people have actually turned into worse 'hatemachines' than Vik even has the potential to. I witnessed someone call Vik a retard and how is that not referring to mentally/physically incapable human beings as an inferior group?

And I didn't even mention Vik's family. I personally think that his family doesn't even matter, as it's Vik we're talking about.
We mostly don't have a negative view on homosexuality in Europe, it's just that we're not becoming mindless shittalkers every time it's mentioned with a negative point of view.

English isn't my first language but I hope I made my point.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Maku said:


> I love how it has come so far that he is actually being terrorized for mentioning his views, and people, who are fighting for tolerance, are the ones who are TRYING to destroy a life/a business of (reference to nolly's earlier posts in facebook) the luthier who made DA B3ST G33T4R EVAR.



Because I'm going to respect a person that wants me off of this Earth or thinks I'm going to be the cause of the end of humanity, right?


----------



## Shimme

BouhZik said:


> I don't know how old you are, but I'm French, born early 80's and I'm "pretty sure" I have nothing to do with what happened in WWI, WWII or anything that happened beetwen.... so why hating French in 2014?? I'm not hating the German, and yet I lost some family in those wars. Every German I met were nice people. So why hating them?



Because hatred and racism are completely irrational, and therefore can't be reasoned with. I'm sure that the USA airports will be "randomly checking" every vaguely Middle Eastern person for the next 3 generations.


----------



## Maku

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Because I'm going to respect a person that wants me off of this Earth or thinks I'm going to be the cause of the end of humanity, right?


Never asked anyone to respect him. I love how everyone is always dealing in absolutes lol


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

Tell that to the guy rep'd me with a comment making it sound like I want him dead.


----------



## Shimme

Maku said:


> Never asked anyone to respect him. I love how everyone is always dealing in absolutes lol





You made a post not 30 minutes ago full of loaded words, hyperbole and general over the top language that is designed to make it sound like people busted up his shop and chased him out of town. If you don't want to talk in absolutes, then don't talk in absolutes


----------



## acrcmb

Sure he has the freedom to say what he wants but that doesn't mean there's no consequences, he was extremely stupid doing it so publicly and his businesses reputation has suffered, alot of people are probably getting overly worked up but at the end of the day it's just trying to make the point that just because your a skilled luthier it doesn't make your intolerance ok. It was him who started it by saying what he did now it's his responsibility to deal with the aftermath you can't just say something negative about a big sector of society and expect no one to get upset, the same freedom that allowed him to say what he wanted is now working against him, the guys just an idiot who obviously didn't think it through.


----------



## stevexc

Maku said:


> I love how it has come so far that he is actually being terrorized for mentioning his views, and people, who are fighting for tolerance, are the ones who are TRYING to destroy a life/a business of (reference to nolly's earlier posts in facebook) the luthier who made DA B3ST G33T4R EVAR.





Maku said:


> I'm certain that this rant would go on forever, but the point I'm trying to make is that all the 'tolerant' people have actually turned into worse 'hatemachines' than Vik even has the potential to. I witnessed someone call Vik a retard and how is that not referring to mentally/physically incapable human beings as an inferior group?
> 
> And I didn't even mention Vik's family. I personally think that his family doesn't even matter, as it's Vik we're talking about.
> We mostly don't have a negative view on homosexuality in Europe, it's just that we're not becoming mindless shittalkers every time it's mentioned with a negative point of view.
> 
> English isn't my first language but I hope I made my point.



Nobody here is trying to destroy his life or his business. He is destroying his own business by driving away customers. As has been mentioned, had his comments been directed at black people, no one would have batted an eye at endorsees dropping like flies, this is no different. It's within every consumer's right - actually, it's every consumer's responsibility - to make their purchases and give their support to companies that share their values. In this scenario, those who value human rights - specifically, the right for any person to not be treated differently and insulted due to their sexuality - are removing their support from Vik.

Two other things to keep in mind:

1. Everybody who is against Vik right now is not on the same page. There are a number of people - especially here - who are more than willing to engage in reasonable discussion on it. I like to think of myself as one of those. There's others who are more personally affected - notably, some members of the LGBTQ community - who are reacting (quite understandably) more... passionately, but still very much on the reasonable side. And of course there are those taking the less mature road. THESE are the guys that are posting gay porn on his Facebook, using various slurs and insults, and overall stooping to his level. Those people are not necessarily the people here, so don't lump them all in the same group.

2. Vik has been having serious issues in his _business_ ethics as well, which is a major contributor to any damage to his company. This is his doing alone. The homophobic comments are just putting him in the spotlight, but do keep in mind that that is mostly affecting him in terms of publicity (and the loss of endorsees of course). He has been having a LOT of strictly business-related issues as well for a lot longer than this discussion has been going on.

JazzHands - I've been apparently making people mad too  You know you're better than them, haha. (FWIW - contributing to the little amount of discussion is what keeps it from being a complete LACK of discussion)


----------



## ManOnTheEdge

I've been through the thread and there is quite a bit of repetition but i thought i would add my .02 $/&#8364;/£ Worth

Originally i wasnt aware that Vik's comment was on the same day that Paul & Sean "came out", once i did, it hammered home what a cowardly and bigoted comment it really was. 

in isolation it was a bigoted, hateful comment. with the subsequent comments Vik's homophobia was clearly evident.

I will admit that when i was younger, as part of my upbringing i inherited some homophobic views UNTIL i actually took some time to look at the LGBT group objectively.

It is not a choice to be yourself, you also cannot choose who you are attracted to, or indeed love. If my wife was of the same gender as me i wouldn't care one bit.

having experienced love, why would anyone want to deny it for another person, regardless of their sexual, ethnic, social or any other "group"?

Vik is in the wrong, standing up against his comments is right.


Also. the highest proponents of anal sex are heterosexual couples, i have gay friends who really cant stand the idea of anal sex.


----------



## flint757

I kind of like the naysayers [people who think we just need to 'let it go' or that we are 'blowing it out of proportion' (at this point I can't see how people actually still believe that, but whatever)] as they help keep this thread alive by essentially bumping it. So thank you everyone who just wants this to blow over for accomplishing the exact opposite! I guess voicing your opposition to us is in fact more important to y'all than just letting it go as well.

The irony is strong.


----------



## Andromalia

We do not have to tolerate intolerance, as you can't argue freedom of speech allows you to tell me to shut up, basically.
Protecting some principles can require to bypass them in some circumstances. You can't just talk to armed people willing to shoot you, even if you're a pacifist. Etc, etc.


----------



## Hyacinth

Maku said:


> I'm certain that this rant would go on forever, but the point I'm trying to make is that all the 'tolerant' people have actually turned into worse 'hatemachines' than Vik even has the potential to. I witnessed someone call Vik a retard and how is that not referring to mentally/physically incapable human beings as an inferior group?
> 
> And I didn't even mention Vik's family. I personally think that his family doesn't even matter, as it's Vik we're talking about.
> We mostly don't have a negative view on homosexuality in Europe, it's just that we're not becoming mindless shittalkers every time it's mentioned with a negative point of view.
> 
> English isn't my first language but I hope I made my point.



DISCLAIMER: I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANY RACE AND HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH ESTONIANS, THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT IS ONLY TO MAKE A POINT.

Try this: People from Estonia are fvcking lame bro, they're all going to hell when Jesus totally comes back to save all the cool people. We'll all be chillin' in heaven while you're in hell suffering for who you were born to be.

That probably doesn't feel too good, does it? Even though you know I didn't mean what I said, it probably still hurt. YOU CAN'T HELP THAT YOU'RE ESTONIAN JUST LIKE LGBT PEOPLE CAN'T HELP WHO THEY ARE. This is warranted shit-talking, not mindless in any way. I guess by the same token Vik can't help that he's a stupid asshole, but he CAN control what he says or doesn't say. He CONSCIOUSLY CHOSE to voice his incredibly bigoted opinion and now he's suffering the consequences


----------



## InCasinoOut

Maku said:


> I love how it has come so far that he is actually being terrorized for mentioning his views, and people, who are fighting for tolerance, are the ones who are TRYING to destroy a life/a business of (reference to nolly's earlier posts in facebook) the luthier who made DA B3ST G33T4R EVAR.



It's funny how many homophobe apologists still come in after NOT READING THE ENTIRE THREAD. You haven't said anything new. *Vik did this to himself. *


----------



## Maku

InCasinoOut said:


> It's funny how many homophobe apologists still come in after NOT READING THE ENTIRE THREAD. You haven't said anything new. *Vik did this to himself. *


not a homophobe

you haven't said anything new.


----------



## slapnutz

bulb said:


> I was originally willing to leave the whole thing be at first. I thought it might a joke in poor taste, and I offered to just take the guitar I waited two years for and already paid for, and stay out of the whole mess because nothing good would come of it.
> 
> Then Nolly showed me this message that he got sent as a result of his statement:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/vprcd0usrm7z01j/Screenshot 2014-05-13 10.14.01.jpg
> It's so unapologetically hateful. We were both incredulous. I am sorry but I can't agree with this "opinion", and I can't be associated with or stay quiet about someone like this.
> 
> He did this to himself.



Its posts like this that I hope this thread is not locked.

I pretty much visit this thread to really only check for updates people are posting from the interwebs. Its my one stop update shop thread. Cheers Misha.

Lol at him blaming Nolly for merging his views and his brand ... if I remember correct, this was all Viks own doing by trying to be clever with that headless guitar joke.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

My favorite part is where he said to Nolly: "I never asked about your views because it's irrelevant to business." Well, nobody asked him either. He just kind of said it. Even if it was initially on his personal profile, it doesn't erase that it's still him saying these things. You can only separate work and personal life so much. People don't have to overlook that you're a bigot just because you didn't come out as a bigot through your business. That "clippers" guy being a good example again.

He made racial comments in private, and got called out on it. There is absolutely no ....ing reason that we should overlook that. Especially when his job was within a business consisting of a large number of the people he spit hate about. Whatever, I'll keep sitting back and watching this shit go. A lot of you guys have more patience than I, and I admire y'all for that.


----------



## Hyacinth

ManOnTheEdge said:


> Also. the highest proponents of anal sex are heterosexual couples, i have gay friends who really cant stand the idea of anal sex.



In a heterosexual couple, can confirm.


----------



## chassless

^ show-off


----------



## Basti

Freedom of speech: the freedom to let people know you're an asshole and the freedom for them to point out that you're an asshole 

Thanks to Vik, I now like Cynic!


----------



## TremontiFan16

I hate people who are hateful to other people.In grey areas, I think people should be more respectful than crack jokes.
If he REALLY wanted to have his opinion known,he should of come out respectfully but not with hate and jokes like he did.
Chick-fil-a (correct me if I'm wrong) was respectful about where they stood on gays? Weren't they?
All I'm trying to say is Adults should have more respect. Actions like this make grown men seem like kids.


----------



## asher

TremontiFan16 said:


> I hate people who are hateful to other people.In grey areas, I think people should be more respectful than crack jokes.
> If he REALLY wanted to have his opinion known,he should of come out respectfully but not with hate and jokes like he did.
> Chick-fil-a (correct me if I'm wrong) was respectful about where they stood on gays? Weren't they?
> All I'm trying to say is Adults should have more respect. Actions like this make grown men seem like kids.



I don't think it's a position you can take and ever be respectful, because of what the position is.


----------



## ferret

His responses to Nolly say everything. For anyone rationalizing the Facebook messages as simply "jokes in poor taste".... the true colors are clearly laid out in those messages. There's really no defense at this point.

I'm just amazed at the people who don't understand and keep trying to defend him.


----------



## TremontiFan16

asher said:


> I don't think it's a position you can take and ever be respectful, because of what the position is.



I guess your right,I just wish people could respect other peoples decisions,because there decisions are there's to make,not yours.


----------



## flint757

I don't think they are defending him in particular. If they are maybe it's because they have a build and are afraid of losing out on their money  . 

Honestly, I think they are more or less defending themselves through him. It's the main reason I can't stand people who sit in the 'middle'. To avoid feeling attacked they validate terrible peoples opinions. Enemy of my enemy type of BS.

I'm leaning towards the latter because the majority of people complaining, if they do delve deeper, have basically admitted to disapproving of gay 'behavior' scratch. I really don't think that is any sort of coincidence.

People are allowed to have their opinions, but if they're hateful or rude they should just keep it to themselves. Until equality in the eyes of the people is reached it will always be received with negativity by the overwhelming majority of people.

You can speak your mind if you wish, like Vik did, but you shouldn't be surprised that people will respond in kind and that's equally their right.


----------



## asher

TremontiFan16 said:


> I guess your right,I just wish people could respect other peoples decisions,because there decisions are there's to make,not yours.



Which decisions are you referring to?


----------



## TremontiFan16

asher said:


> Which decisions are you referring to?



People being homosexual or heterosexual.Its there life's and there decision to make whether they like men or women. They shouldn't get hell for it and people should just let them be.
But people can voice there opinions but we as humans shouldn't be hateful, but try to respect and leave those people alone rather than joke and hate on them


----------



## stevexc

TremontiFan16 said:


> People being homosexual or heterosexual.Its there life's and there decision to make whether they like men or women. They shouldn't get hell for it and people should just let them be.
> But people can voice there opinions but we as humans shouldn't be hateful, but try to respect and leave those people alone rather than joke and hate on them



Inb4 "it's not a decision"

No, it's not a conscious choice - but this level of acceptance, regardless of whether you think it's a choice or not, is definitely a positive one. Your heart's in the right place.


----------



## TremontiFan16

stevexc said:


> Inb4 "it's not a decision"
> 
> No, it's not a conscious choice - but this level of acceptance, regardless of whether you think it's a choice or not, is definitely a positive one. Your heart's in the right place.



I was trying to find the right words for it,sorry "decision" wasn't the right word.
Thanks for helping me get out what I was trying to say


----------



## Basti

TremontiFan16 said:


> People being homosexual or heterosexual.Its there life's and there decision to make whether they like men or women. They shouldn't get hell for it and people should just let them be.
> But people can voice there opinions but we as humans shouldn't be hateful, but try to respect and leave those people alone rather than joke and hate on them



It's simply not a decision though.

edit: Okay okay, ignore me if you wish


----------



## TremontiFan16

Basti said:


> It's simply not a decision though.
> 
> edit: Okay okay, ignore me if you wish



No problem-I could not think of the right word I was looking for but You guys corrected me.


----------



## Basti

TremontiFan16 said:


> No problem-I could not think of the right word I was looking for but You guys corrected me.



I understood right after posting  

But i still think that if an opinion entails prejudice and hate particularly against a whole category of people it deserves to be ridiculed, at the very least


----------



## asher

TremontiFan16 said:


> I was trying to find the right words for it,sorry "decision" wasn't the right word.
> Thanks for helping me get out what I was trying to say



Cheers then. That's exactly where that question was meant to lead, and I had typed up a response, but it was about a hundred times snappier and meaner than it needed to be, so I deleted it and waited for someone else to respond.


----------



## Promit

If hetero/homosexuality were a choice, it would not affect my opinion on the matter in the slightest.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

The point is that some people gets so over sensitive, which is not a problem per se.
But it's a problem when it leads them to fire shot at people blindly even on a discussion thread because people even "liking" things do not like the way they are supposed to be...
When hate brings to nothing else than other hate.
Then, do it as you wish, but don't wonder if someone hating at a group of people doesn't get it when he sees hate on the other side.
That goes for both sides.

And it's not a "being in the middle" stance, it's just an "I don't like how you like to fight this war" stance.
Because going to fight hate with the same amount of hate is not always the way to win a war.
It's one of the option, one that has failed loads of time in human history.

Peace.


----------



## flint757

Okay, so what do you think we all should be doing then??? Or rather what are we here, in the forum solely (facebook is irrelevant to what WE are doing here), doing that you consider to be wrong?

All that's happened so far is a discussion about the events that occurred and the ethical implications, as well as making sure that others can make an informed decision; the end result likely being that people will choose to spend their money elsewhere. The only other 2 alternatives I see right out of the gate is to do nothing or get physical. Last I checked doing nothing never wins any 'wars' either and obviously violence is not the answer here.

Vik really doesn't need anyone's support. He was a bad business man before he made the comments and completely unapologetic afterward. He himself could have made this all go away if his ego wasn't the size of Mars.

Take this:







and replace violence with tolerance and you can see why that just doesn't work. It'd be like playing a poker game where everybody, but one guy is following the rules and then just allowing it. Obviously that wouldn't work very well.

Basically what everyone on this side of the coin keeps saying is that people who preach tolerance need to tolerate everything and people who are intolerant can just do what ever the .... they want.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Vik's comment is shameful and disgraceful. Period.
Still, even from your words, and from many other voices here I perceive hate through your language.
I'm tolerant, with a good number of gay friends, one of my oldest and closest friend being gay, and I had been attacked because I don't perceive the problem as you see it.
In my book, yeah liking people is like liking food, because they're normal people and I live my relation with them with serenity.
Most of all I know my gay friends despite the idea of being seen as aggressive people that want to dictate how they have to be perceived.
They want to live as equals, in serenity and they despite violence.
I think that the violence that ethero puts in fighting for homo rights it's something detrimental and harmful.
You can't force these kind of things.

Also, sorry but...Americans lately tried to solve things with force and it never worked for a better world.
Homophoby is dying by itself, in the mindset of people, these things change with the sensitivity of generations, not with beating dead horses.


----------



## flint757

I disagree entirely. Had no one bothered fighting for civil rights, or hell even the end of slavery, not much would have changed. The only reason each new generation is more tolerant and accepting is because we are taught now, at a young age, that we should be tolerant and that being a bigot is not acceptable in today's society. If we just let every incident slide we'd likely just stagnate. The only point I'll concede to is that the momentum may already be enough to not bother, but we've only gotten this far because we don't consider it acceptable behavior.

Every single civil movement in the US was 'forced'. The majority, of the time period, liked the status quo and fought to keep things the way they were. That is still happening now with laws being written to basically punish gay people.

Don't equate this with actual war because obviously that is not what this is. This is essentially a discussion and a boycott, the exact kind of things that have in fact promoted change throughout US history. 

So you think we are beating a dead horse, that answer what you think we are doing wrong, but what do you offer as an alternative? People deserve to know what they are dealing with so they can decide if they do or don't want to be a part of Viks business. The only way to do that is to keep talking about it. No one here cares to change Viks view of the world.

As an aside, there was no hostile intent in my post. Re-read it in a less angry voice. 

[EDIT]

What violence are you referring to exactly in regards to fighting for gay rights?


----------



## AxeHappy

I swear the next mother ....er who says, "I'm not a bigot, I've got gay friends. Sure I don't "agree" with their "life style", but I've got gay friends so that justifies my intolerance and bigotry," needs to have some sort of metaphorical karmic justice visited upon them.


----------



## chassless

Promit said:


> If hetero/homosexuality were a choice, it would not affect my opinion on the matter in the slightest.



finally, someone who gets it!


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

OmegaSlayer said:


> The point is that some people gets so over sensitive, which is not a problem per se.
> But it's a problem when it leads them to fire shot at people blindly even on a discussion thread because people even "liking" things do not like the way they are supposed to be...
> When hate brings to nothing else than other hate.



You mean like negging JazzHands for disagreeing with you?


----------



## Hyacinth

OmegaSlayer said:


> Vik's comment is shameful and disgraceful. Period.
> Still, even from your words, and from many other voices here I perceive hate through your language.
> I'm tolerant, with a good number of gay friends, one of my oldest and closest friend being gay, and I had been attacked because I don't perceive the problem as you see it.
> In my book, yeah liking people is like liking food, because they're normal people and I live my relation with them with serenity.
> Most of all I know my gay friends despite the idea of being seen as aggressive people that want to dictate how they have to be perceived.
> They want to live as equals, in serenity and they despite violence.
> I think that the violence that ethero puts in fighting for homo rights it's something detrimental and harmful.
> You can't force these kind of things.
> 
> Also, sorry but...Americans lately tried to solve things with force and it never worked for a better world.
> Homophoby is dying by itself, in the mindset of people, these things change with the sensitivity of generations, not with beating dead horses.



Since when is it a bad thing to dislike the bad guy?


----------



## jay moth

Wait, let me get that straight (no pun intended), some guy, who happens to be a luthier, has some unpopular views, and expressed them on his private Facebook profile, and this all spawned all this, including 25 pages of nonsense? Well, that is a drama indeed.

Seriously, does any of it makes any difference on what really matters, in this case how his guitars are being made? 

As far as I remember, Vik is Belarusian, and that clears many things. Eastern Europeans tend to rather easily getting really angry, so while it is indeed unprofessional to mix up his job with his personal views, I'm not surprised it happened, as quite a lot of people were baiting him to do exactly that.

I'm not defending Vik, but his personal views are not my business, and shouldn't be Yours either. Maybe he also doesn't like strawberries, or rye bread. Or his local baker. It has nothing to do with all that so called drama we've got in here.

Then again, I actually didn't read the whole thing, just looked how it all started. Then it went totally bananas, but both Vik and "rest of the world" are the guilty ones now.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

jay moth said:


> Wait, let me get that straight (no pun intended), some guy, who happens to be a luthier, has some unpopular views, and expressed them on his private Facebook profile, and this all spawned all this, including 25 pages of nonsense? Well, that is a drama indeed.
> 
> Seriously, does any of it makes any difference on what really matters, in this case how his guitars are being made?
> 
> As far as I remember, Vik is Belarusian, and that clears many things. Eastern Europeans tend to rather easily getting really angry, so while it is indeed unprofessional to mix up his job with his personal views, I'm not surprised it happened, as quite a lot of people were baiting him to do exactly that.
> 
> I'm not defending Vik, but his personal views are not my business, and shouldn't be Yours either. Maybe he also doesn't like strawberries, or rye bread. Or his local baker. It has nothing to do with all that so called drama we've got in here.
> 
> Then again, I actually didn't read the whole thing, just looked how it all started. Then it went totally bananas, but both Vik and "rest of the world" are the guilty ones now.



And thus, this is the part where I stop giving a .... about people who don't read the entire thread, people who think other people's sexuality/lives are equal to food, and just stop posting and reading it.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

Grand Moff Tim said:


> You mean like negging JazzHands for disagreeing with you?



First, I don't neg rep people with cowardice, like others do, so that if people has problems, they can contact me and confront with me if they want because I am open to dialogue, so if JazzHands have problems he can contact me.
JazzHands, not someone else.
People wants to educate others but refuse dialogue but sends curses
Second, read what Axehappy said and you got the mood of people here.
Third, research why people have historically problems with homosexuals, and maybe you'll realize why aggression is what you should avoid to defend LGBT rights.

Axehappy, you're shameful.


----------



## flint757

What exactly are you referring to as 'aggression'? If your only referring to a tone in peoples writing maybe choose a different word because I tend to reserve aggression for physical encounters. Be specific please. While your at it maybe give me the cliff notes why because of history LGBT's should just sit down and take it. While your on a roll here explain to me the proper course of action we all should be taking if you could too.

Bigotry isn't only about snide remarks man. People have been severely injured by other peoples bigotry. People have been emotionally abused and abandoned because of bigotry. You act as if LGBT people are just in general overreacting. Guess its nice to not have to worry about those kinds of things though huh?


----------



## Esp Griffyn

Maku said:


> I love how it has come so far that he is actually being terrorized for mentioning his views, and people, who are fighting for tolerance, are the ones who are TRYING to destroy a life/a business of (reference to nolly's earlier posts in facebook) the luthier who made DA B3ST G33T4R EVAR.



No one is trying to destroy anything, he is doing that all by himself. I've been on this site and others long enough now to have seen many a luthier fall from grace, after being hailed the greatest thing ever. They all go down the same route in the end, of questionable business practices, usually started by taking too many orders and then the trouble starts when customers deposits have been spent elsewhere and the luthier can't pay back people who cancel once the build times slip. Vik wasn't doing that, but his practices of blackmail, extortion and intimidation of people who were critical of his business was already leaking out, and that is PR poison. I'd bet my bottom dollar on the Vik story ending the same way as so many others, had this homophobia thing come out. This blunder will sink his business in double time and it's all his own doing.

Now with regard to you saying that he "mentioned his views" (which I'd disagree with, what started this was a very thinly veiled attack on Paul Masvidal), "mentioning" that sort of thing isn't on. It's 2014 for god's sake. Now, I understand you're from Estonia, which is at most 160 miles from Belarus and another former Eastern bloc country, where this sort of thing might be more normalised, but Vik needs to realise he is doing business with westerners from countries where his close-minded, bigoted views are not going to be accepted by many, hence the poor reception to what he said.

It's a fundamental human right to be allowed to think whatever you want. That doesn't mean just because you think it, that it's right, or that because you think it you can say it and not expect any repercussion.


----------



## OmegaSlayer

flint757 said:


> What exactly are you referring to as 'aggression'? If your only referring to a tone in peoples writing maybe choose a different word because I tend to reserve aggression for physical encounters. Be specific please. While your at it maybe give me the cliff notes why because of history LGBT's should just sit down and take it. Since your on a roll here explain to me the proper course of action we all should be taking if you could too.
> 
> Bigotry isn't only about snide remarks man. People have been severely injured by other peoples bigotry. People have been emotionally abused and abandoned because of bigotry. You act as if LGBT people are just in general overreacting. Guess its nice to not have to worry about those kinds of things though huh?



Ok, the point about aggression is that for example I see self censored cuss.
As stupid as it might sound, if I speak about a serious and sensible argument with someone, and my interlocutor starts putting in sentences "f***", "why the f***", I perceive annoyance and aggressivity.
If you speak with someone and you cuss without reason, you don't look cool, you look like an idiot, speaking with whom is a loss of time.

Second, most of you have a misconcept about the problem, which is NOT bigotry, it's fear.
The real problem is that people who has problems with homosexuals is getting the difference between sodomy and anal intercourse.
In nature, sodomy is something that sometimes happens between the alpha male to submit other males of the pack.
In the same way, in Greek and Roman cultures (I speak for what I know) sodomy was practiced (along with pedophily) to submit lower rank people.
And in the same way sodomy is practiced in jails to humiliate people who doesn't comply to the "jail unspoken regulation" and to show who's the boss.
Sodomy is perceived as an aggressive violent act to force submission into people.
In sadomaso practices, women operates sodomy onto men to force them into "slaves".

In the minds of many this translates in the perception of gays as a bunch of people that relies on a violent practice, and that the group of gay people is a lobby that wants to change the current status quo and overtake "normality".

That's why people FEARS gays.
If you speak with males, many individuals that hates gays, have no problems with lesbians, often enjoying watching lesbians.
Women often don't understand lesbians, but they find sexually arousing seeing two men intercoursing.
Many men still think that only the passive gay is gay.
It's a full spectrum of perception that ALL relates to the sexual act and mindset.

As I said, sodomy is an act perceived as violent and with submissive intents.
No wonder that the places were homophoby is strongest are place that had been under years of dictatorships or repressive governments.

That's why I keep telling that a "war" doesn't work, because people is not bigot, is scared.
Fears are an unconscious process, and are for the same part irrational and built on your experiences.
People is scared of dogs, cats and yes, even gays.
If someone is scared of a dog, you can tell him in every language that the dog is a good dog, that won't change all his life experiences.
If the dog barks at a guy who's scared, the fear won't ever go away.
I'm dead scared of pigeons, I can try to rationalize my fears, I can walk close to one, but I'm always wary and keep a close eye to each one of his movement.
Do you think that making fun of me because I fear pigeons will help me?
Do you think that forcing a pigeon to fly towards me will make me happier?

That's the mindset of people like Vik, he doesn't like what he fears.
People fears that if...say: gays become relevant and boss is a gay, he might ask for intercourse to not fire him and stuff like that.
It's something that unfortunately already happens commonly between bosses and secretary, so in the average Joe's mind is not something from "Star Trek"

So, how do you fight?
As I said, you can only change one guy that has fears into someone wary.
You can change over generations making people understand that the LGBT community doesn't want to change your world, and not force violence and submission unto others.
Changes, not wars.
Changes take time, but changes become the consolidated norm, war has immediate results, but not often the ones you wish, and you can't plan on the long term.

When you label the problem as "bigotry" you're oversimplyfying the problem, and that's why you only risk to make it worse.

I would have rather given you this explaination via pm flint, since some people here don't listen and don't accept things and will keep distorting my words, accusing me of something I'm not, which is despicable.
I hope that you'll think a couple of minutes on what I said and eventually do your research about what I said.

With this I'm said and done on this thread.


----------



## StevenC

To drag this thread, kicking and screaming, out of the same conversation, over and over again, it would appear there have been some changes to Vik's build queue:







Tosin Abasi and Fredrik Thordendal are no longer on the list, as well as Misha, shoe we know got out.

The Nolly run has been renamed "The Transcendence Run".


----------



## Zalbu

jay moth said:


> Wait, let me get that straight (no pun intended), some guy, who happens to be a luthier, has some unpopular views, and expressed them on his private Facebook profile, and this all spawned all this, including 25 pages of nonsense? Well, that is a drama indeed.
> 
> Seriously, does any of it makes any difference on what really matters, in this case how his guitars are being made?
> 
> As far as I remember, Vik is Belarusian, and that clears many things. Eastern Europeans tend to rather easily getting really angry, so while it is indeed unprofessional to mix up his job with his personal views, I'm not surprised it happened, as quite a lot of people were baiting him to do exactly that.
> 
> I'm not defending Vik, but his personal views are not my business, and shouldn't be Yours either. Maybe he also doesn't like strawberries, or rye bread. Or his local baker. It has nothing to do with all that so called drama we've got in here.
> 
> Then again, I actually didn't read the whole thing, just looked how it all started. Then it went totally bananas, but both Vik and "rest of the world" are the guilty ones now.


Call me when people get denied rights and murdered over different taste in food, then we'll talk.


----------



## SavM

StevenC said:


> The Nolly run has been renamed "The Transcendence Run".



Hmmm shouldn't it be called something along the lines of "The Repentance Run", or something similar?
Strange choice of wording in any case.


----------



## jay moth

> Call me when people get denied rights and murdered over different taste in food, then we'll talk.


In some Asian countries cats and dogs are food, while in western world they aren't. The other way round, pork in muslim countries is a no-no. Can we talk now?

Also, does Your post mean, that offending vegans is alright, while offending homosexuals is not? Yes, this conclusion is stupid. Just like the one from Your post.

Thing is, do You know if Your postman, busdriver, or the guy who assembled Your furniture is tolerant, bigot, or maybe even Satan himself? No, You don't. Do You care? Don't think so. What I'm pointing at, is this whole drama started on his private profile, while he posted his on opinion. And if You've ever been in his part of the world, You'll know, quite a lot of people are not exactly tolerant. For many reasons. As long as he can do what he is being paid for, there's no point to start a war. His main problem is, he got into all those rather stupid discussions, so after all, he can't run his bizness properly.


----------



## tacotiklah

I can't for the life of me understand why people will just haphazardly post an opinion when they won't even take the time to actually READ the whole thread. It's not like it takes a long time to do. Surely if you have 10-15 minutes to kill, you can catch up on everything that's been said. If you don't have that kind of extra time, then why are you on this forum to begin with? Couldn't you just finish up what you are doing, then come back when you do have the time?

Also, there are few things more pretentious and condescending in the world than straight, cisgender males dictating to LGBT people that we are overreacting and should just suck it up.

To those people I say, if you haven't had a chance to walk a mile in my fabulous 2 1/2" heels before telling me something that callous, then you may go kindly sodomize yourself with a potato until your sphincter cuts them into crinkle fries. When you've been kicked out of music venues just for who you are, outed to an entire classroom by a hateful professor, or completely bullied while on a valentine's day date by a group of thugs at a movie theater, then you may have an opinion on whether or not I should just "suck it up".


----------



## loqtrall

I just don't get why, after 26 pages (and multiple pages on 2 other threads), people just can't hate Vik, not buy his guitars, not contribute to his business, and let it go. I mean, seriously, what is arguing about it on a forum going to do?

His business is basically taking a dive, and it has nothing to do with this forum thread, or the other two floating around that are insulting him and his business. What he said was idiotic, sure, but everyone has made their point. Vik's a bad guy, whether you still respect him or not. Hating LGBT people isn't the first asshole thing he's done, and everyone here knows that. What's the point of having 26 pages (in the music discussion forum, mind you) of pointless bickering that's doing absolutely nothing to effect the actual problem that's being bickered about?

It just doesn't make sense to me to keep this thread going. It's been almost a week, and it seems he is taking this more maturely than the people that are calling him immature.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim

The only thing keeping it going is people who haven't read it coming in and making the same arguments that have already been torn down time and time again.

Not that I mind that it's still going. As long as it keeps going, it'll still be high up on the google search results for Vik Guitars, which is a good thing.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

I've been reading the whole thread and I never gave any insight or arguments because I don't have the patience to deal with internet social warriors. This thread ran its course about 10 pages ago.


----------



## fps

jay moth said:


> In some Asian countries cats and dogs are food, while in western world they aren't. The other way round, pork in muslim countries is a no-no. Can we talk now?
> 
> Also, does Your post mean, that offending vegans is alright, while offending homosexuals is not? Yes, this conclusion is stupid. Just like the one from Your post.
> 
> Thing is, do You know if Your postman, busdriver, or the guy who assembled Your furniture is tolerant, bigot, or maybe even Satan himself? No, You don't. Do You care? Don't think so. What I'm pointing at, is this whole drama started on his private profile, while he posted his on opinion. And if You've ever been in his part of the world, You'll know, quite a lot of people are not exactly tolerant. For many reasons. As long as he can do what he is being paid for, there's no point to start a war. His main problem is, he got into all those rather stupid discussions, so after all, he can't run his bizness properly.



You reason like a child. I think if things have got to this level this should indeed be locked up.


----------



## narad

It's just a bit weird that the people arguing for the thread to be locked are the same people arguing generally in defense of homophobia (which, by the way, is _not_ the fear of homosexuality). If you want the thread to die just go away and stop breathing life into it - posting in a thread that you find pointless and don't want to see is as backwards as half of the logic you profess when you do post.

Or continue to explain how voicing intolerance of homosexuals is akin to eating cat or having furniture assembled.


----------



## loqtrall

narad said:


> It's just a bit weird that the people arguing for the thread to be locked are the same people arguing generally in defense of homophobia (which, by the way, is _not_ the fear of homosexuality). If you want the thread to die just go away and stop breathing life into it - posting in a thread that you find pointless and don't want to see is as backwards as half of the logic you profess when you do post.
> 
> Or continue to explain how voicing intolerance of homosexuals is akin to eating cat or having furniture assembled.



I hope you're not including me among "the same people arguing generally in defense of homophobia". Voicing your opinion on the matter is your right, but in turn you're basically insulting people for insulting people.

The guy wasn't saying intolerance towards homosexuals is akin to eating a cat. He basically said in some cultures, being homosexual is viewed as wrong, just as in some cultures eating a cat is normal. And, like it or not, people arguing and complaining because their lifestyles clash with others' is completely and utterly POINTLESS.

I mean, come on. Please explain to me how Vik saying "Fvck gays" publicly and pro-homosexual people saying "Fvck Vik" on a fvcking FORUM is getting the problem anywhere? Where has bickering and fighting ever gotten anyone?

EDIT: I mean, my point is: Having a forum thread longer than most "*band name* MEGATHREAD"s about a guy who doesn't like homosexual people is absolutely pointless. It'd be different if Vik actually posted here, was an active part in the conversation, but he's not. It's just a bunch of people saying "let it go" and a lot more people basically saying "Vik can suck my dick" for absolutely no reason. This is just as stupid as that Tim Lambesis thread, the dude's in prison, already sentenced, band's moved on, members have moved on, and people are still posting in that thread. Why?


----------



## Captain Butterscotch

narad said:


> It's just a bit weird that the people arguing for the thread to be locked are the same people arguing generally in defense of homophobia (which, by the way, is _not_ the fear of homosexuality). If you want the thread to die just go away and stop breathing life into it - posting in a thread that you find pointless and don't want to see is as backwards as half of the logic you profess when you do post.
> 
> Or continue to explain how voicing intolerance of homosexuals is akin to eating cat or having furniture assembled.



Can't tell if directed at me or not because of the timing of our posts.  If so, please do not put words in my mouth.  

At this point it's people saying the same thing over. The dead horse has been disintegrated, the ground has been smashed to a muddy pulp, and people are steadily making their way towards the Earth's core with a diamond studded drill.


----------



## Yo_Wattup

Add me to the list of people that want this thread to die but are bumping it.


----------



## jay moth

If not caring about someone elses private life is childish, then yes, I do reason like a child.

"Voicing intolerance"? My opinion is, Vik has a right to think whatever he wants on any subject. He said, that he just doesn't like homosexuals, and headless guitars, fair enough, his problem, but I wouldn't call it "voicing intolerance". It should end there. It didn't. Why whole thing got into those proportions? Not entirely Vik's fault. Even first page of this thread is festival of overreactions.

Everyone seems to care way too much than they should.


----------



## narad

Nah, I agree that the thread has run its course (whatever course that was!). But what do you do when you think a thread is pointless? Keep posting in it? Try to argue that the further discussion is pointless? No, you go away and you stop commenting in it.

There's no point in locking it unless you want a vik-drama-round-4 thread to pop up tomorrow when someone's refused a refund or some new rant is posted, etc.


----------



## loqtrall

Anyone thinking Vik is advocating intolerance towards the LGBT community and is the devil leading the cause to bring down homosexuality, come to the US and parade around South Georgia in support of homosexuality and the LGBT community.

They won't just say, "Eh, I hate gays", they'll probably fvcking assault you.

What Vik said was wrong, but it's nowhere near as bad as people are making it out to be. He didn't really verbally assault anyone personally, people are just treating him like he did. I mean, he is DEFINITELY not the first person in history to say what he said.


----------



## Andromalia

loqtrall said:


> Voicing your opinion on the matter is your right



Actually, it necessarily isn't. Promoting racism and hatred toward specific groups is an offense in France and a lot of other EU countries, for exemple. (Which is why such groups rely on complicated periphrases to get the message through anyway, to which I wish they would just be told "stop thinking we're stupid" and put into prison.)

TLDR: racism is not an opinion, nor is homophobia. They are mistakes.


----------



## loqtrall

narad said:


> But what do you do when you think a thread is pointless? Keep posting in it? Try to argue that the further discussion is pointless? No, you go away and you stop commenting in it.



No, that's what YOU do. If you've learned anything from this thread, it should be that everyone approaches a situation differently, everyone lives differently, nobody is the same.

Not everyone thinks or feels the same way you do, you have to learn to accept that.

I think it's more than acceptable to voice your opinion that a thread is pointless and should be locked by posting ON said thread. What's wrong with that?


----------



## loqtrall

Andromalia said:


> TLDR: racism is not an opinion, nor is homophobia. They are mistakes.



Disclaimer (and I can't believe I have to put this): I wholeheartedly support the LGBT community, and believe everyone should lead their lives the way they want to.

But, where the hell did you come up with this?
Racism is completely opinion.
Hypothetically, if I think all Mexicans are dirty aliens who are stealing our jobs and deserve to be deported back to Mexico, that's completely my opinion. That's just it, my opinion, nothing else. That applies to all opinions. Just because someone doesn't like a guy's opinion doesn't deem it false.


----------



## narad

loqtrall said:


> No, that's what YOU do. If you've learned anything from this thread, it should be that everyone approaches a situation differently, everyone lives differently, nobody is the same.
> 
> Not everyone thinks or feels the same way you do, you have to learn to accept that.
> 
> I think it's more than acceptable to voice your opinion that a thread is pointless and should be locked by posting ON said thread. What's wrong with that?



Well for starters threads get locked not by some democratic process but by a mod deeming a thread sufficiently exhausted. That's what mods are for - no need to do their jobs for them, they've been at a while. The obvious indication that a thread has truly run its course is when people naturally have no interest in participating in it. That is what you're preventing every time you bump it. That's not personal preference, that's just logic.

Now, if a thread has gone so drastically off trajectory and is deemed so stupid that it absolutely must be locked, and you yourself are responsible for half the posts on the last page, that might be an indication of something. 

That said, discussing what warrants locking a thread is sufficiently off topic that I'll not discuss it further. For my own sanity. Have fun. Don't do drugs.


----------



## technomancer

OmegaSlayer said:


> In the same way, in Greek and Roman cultures (I speak for what I know) sodomy was practiced (along with pedophily) to submit lower rank people.



I assume with your inclusion of Roman culture you mean the ancient cultures of Greek and Rome and nothing modern day... in which case you are way off base. Male / Male relationships were common in these cultures but had absolutely nothing to do with forcing anyone to submit to anything. The upper classes had as little as possible to do with the lower classes, and male male relationships were usually of the form of intimate colleagues or in master / apprentice relationships where in addition to patronage there was a sexual component. Bottom line the ancient Greeks and Romans were nowhere near as hung up on sexuality as we are today. Not to say there weren't assholes that raped people because they could get away with it, but it was certainly not a cultural norm and was frowned up 

Sorry for the offtopic, studied classical civilizations a lot and it bothers me when somebody gets something completely wrong 

On Topic: Fred still has an order in 



narad said:


> Nah, I agree that the thread has run its course (whatever course that was!). But what do you do when you think a thread is pointless? Keep posting in it? Try to argue that the further discussion is pointless? No, you go away and you stop commenting in it.
> 
> There's no point in locking it unless you want a vik-drama-round-4 thread to pop up tomorrow when someone's refused a refund or some new rant is posted, etc.



Hit the nail on the head... when somebody has the uncontrollable need to vent about the guy we can roll it into the existing thread instead of having tons of them. Consider this the "Vik is a Dik" megathread


----------



## StevenC

technomancer said:


> On Topic: Fred still has an order in



This could very easily be because Vik won't cancel his order. I know some people have tried to cancel their orders unsuccessfully this past week.


----------



## stevexc

Okay hold on guys. Little misconception here... Vik didn't post anything on his PRIVATE Facebook page. He posted on his personal, PUBLIC Facebook page. If it had been private, NOBODY WOULD HAVE SEEN IT. Either way, after it was posted he was very politely given the opportunity by Per Nilsson to clarify his statement - this was his only chance to say "no, I've got no problem with him being gay, it was a bad joke, I'm sorry" and everything would have been fine - but he strengthened his position AND THEN MOVED IT TO HIS PUBLIC BUSINESS PROFILE.

As soon as he moved his "personal views" into the public world - especially into his business - it's entirely fair game.

EDIT: To respond to whomever that was, while yes it's an obvious fact, it's also one that many people have been missing. There's been more than a couple posts saying "so let me get this straight, Vik posted something on his private facebook and it spawned 25 pages of this?"


----------



## AxeHappy

OmegaSlayer said:


> AxeHappy, you're shameful.



Serioisly, you don't think the, "I've got gay friends but..." Is exactly the same as the, "I've got negro friends but..." Crap that went on during the civil rights movement? ​Because it isn't a tiny bit different. And just reading people bring it up again and again, right before saying that fighting for equality is wrong/stupid/as bad as intolerance/etc is just so... Telling. 


Somebody used the word, "Pro-homosexual." 

I am not pro-homosexual. I don't care one way or another about one's sexual orientation. It is completely irrelevant to my value of a person. I am sure there are just as many douchey homosexuals as their are douchey straight people or whatever.

What I am is pro *human* and unlike some people in this thread I know that homosexuals are humans just like anybody else. And I will fight against anybody who attempts to take that away from them.


But I'm the shameful one alright.


----------



## Jonathan20022

I've made my stance on this, and I kind of agree with Axe ^ saying you have gay friends doesn't make your opinion any higher or lower than another person's. Nor does it validate it, it's almost like a type of pass to voice your opinion 

Agreed with everything else he said though, you shouldn't be defined by your sexuality. Same as how I think this shouldn't even be an argument, everyone deserves those basic rights.

One thing I've always wondered about, and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. Is the point of sexuality and sexual preference not being a choice? I can understand born attraction towards things you prefer, but isn't it normal for someone who was heterosexual and became bi or homosexual to consider that their choice in life? There's various different options that you can go for, and I mean if you're strictly one or the other that just means you know what you like and choose to stick with it right?

Again not saying it is or isn't a choice, I just never got the distinction. We're free humans and we live in a world and time where you can be whoever you want to be.


----------



## technomancer

StevenC said:


> This could very easily be because Vik won't cancel his order. I know some people have tried to cancel their orders unsuccessfully this past week.



Entirely possible, completely forgot who we're talking about


----------



## Promit

The thread is still going because like clockwork every two days, some new person drops in, reads the first page, and voices some ignorant thought about how Vik is just expressing an opinion that has nothing to do with his business and it shouldn't affect anything and it's not hateful and the upset ones are hateful.

And since that person was too damned lazy to read any of the intermediate posts that show how scummy Vik actually was, or explain why hate speech and condemning hate speech are not the same thing, or whatever - we have to start AGAIN from the top and explain everything.

What he said WAS that bad. It WAS connected to his business. It WAS hate directed at specific people. It was NOT an unprompted opinion. And it is NOT equivalent to spread hate speech and to condemn said hate speech. If you think otherwise, don't speak until you read all 27 pages. If you don't have the time or patience to read the entire thread, _shut your damn mouth_.


----------



## PAINGVR

Maybe, he should be forced to sell his business like Sterling with the LA Clippers.


----------



## Explorer

Jonathan20022 said:


> One thing I've always wondered about, and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. Is the point of sexuality and sexual preference not being a choice? I can understand born attraction towards things you prefer, but isn't it normal for someone who was heterosexual and became bi or homosexual to consider that their choice in life? There's various different options that you can go for, and I mean if you're strictly one or the other that just means you know what you like and choose to stick with it right?



From my friends who are LGBT, I've heard many stories about how life was so hard that they had to pretend to be hetero so as to fit in, to not get the shit beat out of them, not get tossed out into the street by their parents while still a minor, not to have other people discriminate against them, and so on.

And those of them who expressed an opinion on it all felt that if they really had a choice about it, they would have happily made the choice which wouldn't have put them at risk for physical harm. 

But they couldn't. Biology was too strong.

And that's why they identified as hetero until they just couldn't live the lie any longer.

Now, imagine the whole world filled with people who not only expressed themselves with harsher words than Vik, but were willing to back up those words with violence.

And violence is actually where it has gone much of the time. That's why it's part of most hate crime legislation, because views like those expressed by Vik are often tied to violence. Scarily, that violence is sometimes also tied to a religion which justifies such hatred, like the Klan had Christian roots which justified burning and lynching n**ers.

By tolerating such thinking, one allows the extremes of this kind of thinking to be acceptable. Even now in the US, you get political groups who argue that gays shouldn't be protected by hate crime legislation, all conveniently forgetting how often people are injured and killed because of their sexuality. If it's not a problem, then don't worry, no one will be prosecuted for a hate crime against LGBTs, right? 

And that scene, which I couldn't bring myself to watch again, is what I see in the back of my mind when people are intolerant of blacks, gays, and other groups. 

BTW... I wish there was an easy way of putting up a quarter bet for how long until the next person posts, "I don't care about your opinions, and didn't bother to read what you all wrote, but you need to read MY opnion as to why you're all wrong!" *laugh*

Honestly, I think that it's a good chance for people to learn something, to have a dialogue about why bigotry harms people, and to possibly realize why they come across as an ass when they are so quick to rush to judgment that they don't bother learning the facts. 

Keep the topic open. We've had several members who have come back and said, I read the whole topic, and now I see that I was an idiot and didn't have the full story. 

I think any such revelation helps society as a whole.


----------



## stevexc

Jonathan20022 said:


> One thing I've always wondered about, and I hope no one takes this the wrong way. Is the point of sexuality and sexual preference not being a choice? I can understand born attraction towards things you prefer, but isn't it normal for someone who was heterosexual and became bi or homosexual to consider that their choice in life? There's various different options that you can go for, and I mean if you're strictly one or the other that just means you know what you like and choose to stick with it right?



My understanding is that the "choice" isn't to be gay, but it's to accept that you ARE gay. You choose to accept yourself for who you are, and to embrace being attracted to whatever it is attracts you.

Say you're a man who is attracted to men. You can choose to be okay with that fact and be gay, or you can choose to repress it and like women - which usually just doesn't work, much like a lefty trying to write with their left hand.


----------



## AxeHappy

Well sexual orientation is not binary and it is way more complicated than just being straight or gay. It is also...fluid for some people. Which doesn't mean it "changes" or is a choice, but just that they may at times only be attracted to men and only attracted to women at others, and attracted to both at other times. 

And some people (I believe the current estimate is ~1%) are legitimately asexual. 

The issue is far more complicated than certain groups of people want to make it, and is certainly something that *nobody* should be condemned for.


----------



## Basti

I was hoping for more puns about him selling his wood for money guys, I am disappointed


----------



## stevexc

AxeHappy said:


> Well sexual orientation is not binary and it is way more complicated than just being straight or gay. It is also...fluid for some people. Which doesn't mean it "changes" or is a choice, but just that they may at times only be attracted to men and only attracted to women at others, and attracted to both at other times.
> 
> And some people (I believe the current estimate is ~1%) are legitimately asexual.
> 
> The issue is far more complicated than certain groups of people want to make it, and is certainly something that *nobody* should be condemned for.



Definitely, I was very much simplifying it.


----------



## downburst82

Anyone notice his likes are going back up again? Not sky rocketing up or anything but he's back over 14,000 again.

I still think his business is probably mortally wounded...but I do have to admit i'm a little disappointed people are still liking his page.


----------



## narad

He recovered in "likes" very quickly, but I think it's very hard to analyze that and walk away with a sound conclusion, positive or negative. There's just a lot going on.

One thing I saw a few days ago was a woman in the comments arguing all about free speech, the right to publicly express a dislike of homosexuality, etc. -- nothing all too different from many of the comments. But what's weird is that I checked her profile - solidly past middle-age, no friends in the guitar community, no guitar anything, music preference was Top 40, and her group membership was all impeach Obama, traditional marriage in the US, 2nd amendment craziness. Photos of Hilary with a Hitler mustache in the top 4-5 most recent pics...

So some people, probably on both sides of the argument at this point, are in those threads arguing but have nothing to do with the guitar or metal communities. They're just basically internet activists that got tipped off about a mini-battlefield, and in her case are like nearly retired stay-at-home moms in Texas with nothing better to do, rallying to the cause. That's when I had to peace out - I'll sort through the community's drivel, but I'm not going to wade through the comments of what is essentially the army reserves for political internet trolls!


----------



## Hyacinth

jay moth said:


> If not caring about someone elses private life is childish, then yes, I do reason like a child.
> 
> "Voicing intolerance"? My opinion is, Vik has a right to think whatever he wants on any subject. He said, that he just doesn't like homosexuals, and headless guitars, fair enough, his problem, but I wouldn't call it "voicing intolerance". It should end there. It didn't. Why whole thing got into those proportions? Not entirely Vik's fault. Even first page of this thread is festival of overreactions.
> 
> Everyone seems to care way too much than they should.



He didn't voice his opinion in is own private life. He said it on Facebook which is very public. In fact, *nothing* on the internet is private.


----------



## flint757

**Sorry for another long post. Didn't want to omit anything from Omegaslayers post**



OmegaSlayer said:


> Ok, the point about aggression is that for example I see self censored cuss.
> 
> As stupid as it might sound, if I speak about a serious and sensible argument with someone, and my interlocutor starts putting in sentences "f***", "why the f***", I perceive annoyance and aggressivity.
> If you speak with someone and you cuss without reason, you don't look cool, you look like an idiot, speaking with whom is a loss of time.



Are you referring to the ellipses where curse words should be? That is not intentional by anyone man. Curse words are filtered out by the website. In any case, not everyone curses to be a dick or because they are angry (not always at least). I generally curse to emphasize a point and it usually works just fine. I curse in my everyday speech quite a bit as well. If that bothers you I'm sorry I guess. That's a personal hang up though.




OmegaSlayer said:


> Second, most of you have a misconcept about the problem, which is NOT bigotry, it's fear.
> The real problem is that people who has problems with homosexuals is getting the difference between sodomy and anal intercourse.
> In nature, sodomy is something that sometimes happens between the alpha male to submit other males of the pack.
> In the same way, in Greek and Roman cultures (I speak for what I know) sodomy was practiced (along with pedophily) to submit lower rank people.
> And in the same way sodomy is practiced in jails to humiliate people who doesn't comply to the "jail unspoken regulation" and to show who's the boss.
> Sodomy is perceived as an aggressive violent act to force submission into people.
> In sadomaso practices, women operates sodomy onto men to force them into "slaves".





Others have already responded to this as well, but seriously? 

I'll concede that 'some' people are afraid of gay people, but most aren't. Many just express disgust or hate towards them and that's the end of it. They aren't afraid they are going to be raped in the middle of the night, they just find gay people icky. I'm willing to go off on a limb and say that most people aren't irrationally afraid of gay people at all (definition of a phobia). In truth homophobia is really an incorrect term in today's time for most people who express bigotry towards gay people as there is no fear, but simple hate/disgust. Everyone I know personally who are essentially bigots are not afraid of gay people in the slightest. They're just mean spirited people.



OmegaSlayer said:


> In the minds of many this translates in the perception of gays as a bunch of people that relies on a violent practice, and that the group of gay people is a lobby that wants to change the current status quo and overtake "normality".



This speaks volumes on your behalf.

I ask again, what violence are you referring to? You cleverly keep dodging that question yet you keep bringing it up. I don't think you understand what violence actually is. What is happening here is not violence. Violence does in fact happen towards gay people though, but that doesn't really support your point.

The status quo is to keep allowing people to mistreat gay people apparently. I'm sorry if their right to be treated as equals trumps your sense of normality. I hate to keep bringing it up, but I'm sure these exact same conversations were happening during the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, the women's rights movement, etc. as well. I mean how dare women choose to work along side men ruining their sense of daily normality. If only they just 'waited' until people got over it because that's totally how every civil movement has worked. Amirite? 

This, funny enough, was the argument against freeing slaves and giving black people equal rights. The excuse was black people are 'dangerous' and that people were 'afraid' of them. Sounds a lot like what you just said to me.

People changed because society changed. Society only changed by deeming such things as inappropriate and as prejudicial. What you suggest is to remove the societal pressure basically. If we removed it nothing would have ever changed. Like I said, now that more people are on board with equal rights it may not be nearly as necessary as before, but civil rights have only gotten this far because people stood up and took notice. The only people advocating this 'live and let live' or 'just wait a few decades' are people completely unaffected by gay rights because they're straight. That's a strong opinion from someone who doesn't even have a horse in the race.



OmegaSlayer said:


> That's why people FEARS gays.
> If you speak with males, many individuals that hates gays, have no problems with lesbians, often enjoying watching lesbians.
> Women often don't understand lesbians, but they find sexually arousing seeing two men intercoursing.
> Many men still think that only the passive gay is gay.
> It's a full spectrum of perception that ALL relates to the sexual act and mindset.



I have no idea where you were going with this. 



OmegaSlayer said:


> As I said, sodomy is an act perceived as violent and with submissive intents.
> No wonder that the places were homophoby is strongest are place that had been under years of dictatorships or repressive governments.



You do realize straight and gay people alike have oral and anal sex right? Are you really saying that because people are stupid gay people should just deal with it? Whether that's what you meant or not it's utter nonsense.



OmegaSlayer said:


> That's why I keep telling that a "war" doesn't work, because people is not bigot, is scared.
> Fears are an unconscious process, and are for the same part irrational and built on your experiences.
> People is scared of dogs, cats and yes, even gays.
> If someone is scared of a dog, you can tell him in every language that the dog is a good dog, that won't change all his life experiences.
> If the dog barks at a guy who's scared, the fear won't ever go away.
> I'm dead scared of pigeons, I can try to rationalize my fears, I can walk close to one, but I'm always wary and keep a close eye to each one of his movement.



What war?  You use very hostile terminology when referring to the LGBT movement. Clearly you're not a fan.

I'm not going to say no one is 'afraid', but that is stretching it big time in today's society. I already clarified why above so I won't repeat myself.

Fear of gay people, or any other group subjected to bigotry, only exists because of bigotry (lies and rumors spread by other bigots). Even still it doesn't apply to most people. The majority of people online and IRL I come into contact with who express bigotry towards a group do so because they dislike said group, are usually misinformed, maybe throw a little religion into the mix and have a general sense of thinking they are simply 'better' than said group. I have never come across a bigot who was actually afraid of the person they were being bigoted towards.



OmegaSlayer said:


> Do you think that making fun of me because I fear pigeons will help me?
> Do you think that forcing a pigeon to fly towards me will make me happier?





Most bigots don't fear what they hate, they are just hateful in general. Some because of the way they were raised, some because of religion and some for no reason at all. Fear is not one of them for the majority of hateful people. 

Your coming at this angle pretty hard though. Do you fear gay people? Otherwise I couldn't tell you how you've come to this conclusion. Either way your position is misguided and extremely one sided for a guy claiming to want equality. Your position actually better supports LGBT better than yours because I guarantee you LGBT/LGBT supporters fear bigots far more than bigots fear them. You know, since bigots have committed actual violence against gay people.



OmegaSlayer said:


> That's the mindset of people like Vik, he doesn't like what he fears.



And you assume too much. You don't actually know that and nothing he has said would indicate that.



OmegaSlayer said:


> People fears that if...say: gays become relevant and boss is a gay, he might ask for intercourse to not fire him and stuff like that.
> It's something that unfortunately already happens commonly between bosses and secretary, so in the average Joe's mind is not something from "Star Trek"



  

Not sure how to feel about this gibberish man. That is the most ridiculous thing I have heard yet though. So gays should have less rights and it should be okay for loads of people to find it completely unacceptable because of some pseudo fear that they may be forced to have sex with their boss. Mind you that is already inherently possible with or without gay people entering the equation. There are laws against such things in my country already. If that isn't the case in Italy then maybe somebody should propose a change. Treating someone as less than a person out of a misguided fear (that is likely not even accurate or real, most bigots do not fear gays they just hate them) is just outrageous. The fact that you are advocating this point makes me question your intentions. 

On top of that your whole perspective is incredibly one sided and only in support of the majority mentality. All these things you propose to justify bigotry doesn't change the fact that, like I've sad 100 times before, you think gay people just need to sit down, shut up and wait while bigoted ass clowns can do whatever the .... they want to, which includes discriminating against gay people out of a supposed outrageous fear (according to you).



OmegaSlayer said:


> So, how do you fight?
> As I said, you can only change one guy that has fears into someone wary.



I have no idea what you are saying here.



OmegaSlayer said:


> You can change over generations making people understand that the LGBT community doesn't want to change your world, and not force *violence and submission* unto others.
> Changes, not *wars*.
> Changes take time, but changes become the consolidated norm, *war* has immediate results, but not often the ones you wish, and you can't plan on the long term.



You keep saying these things, but I don't think you know what they mean. Maybe I'm clueless to what is going on Italy. Are gay people starting a war, committing violence towards the Italians while forcing them to have gay sex? That's basically what you're insinuating. If it isn't then speak more clearly and stop using such polarizing language.



OmegaSlayer said:


> When you label the problem as "bigotry" you're oversimplyfying the problem, and that's why you only risk to make it worse.



Personally I think you are unnecessarily complicating it. Whatever helps you sleep at night I guess.



OmegaSlayer said:


> I would have rather given you this explaination via pm flint, since some people here don't listen and don't accept things and will keep distorting my words, accusing me of something I'm not, which is despicable.
> I hope that you'll think a couple of minutes on what I said and eventually do your research about what I said.
> 
> With this I'm said and done on this thread.



Understandable and honestly I tried to be more civil about it, but some of the things you suggest are just wacky. If you'd rather have done this on PM then maybe you should have just done that.


----------



## flint757

jay moth said:


> If not caring about someone elses private life is childish, then yes, I do reason like a child.
> 
> "Voicing intolerance"? My opinion is, Vik has a right to think whatever he wants on any subject. He said, that he just doesn't like homosexuals, and headless guitars, fair enough, his problem, but I wouldn't call it "voicing intolerance". It should end there. It didn't. Why whole thing got into those proportions? Not entirely Vik's fault. Even first page of this thread is festival of overreactions.
> 
> Everyone seems to care way too much than they should.



Maybe read the whole thread or check out one of the articles at least. That is not 'all he did'.



loqtrall said:


> I think it's more than acceptable to voice your opinion that a thread is pointless and should be locked by posting ON said thread. What's wrong with that?



Nothing is 'wrong' with it. You're just not accomplishing the goal you had hoped to achieve.


----------



## Necris

Fear and Hatred aren't mutually exclusive.

However, I can't help but be 100% certain that fear wasn't the driving force behind friends of mine in high school getting beaten and having abuse hurled at them constantly after they came out.

I don't believe a group of 10 people jumping and beating a person who was _rumored_ to be gay had anything to do with self defense or fear that a single person would "dominate" or rape them.

But maybe I'm naive.


----------



## ElysianGuitars

downburst82 said:


> Anyone notice his likes are going back up again? Not sky rocketing up or anything but he's back over 14,000 again.
> 
> I still think his business is probably mortally wounded...but I do have to admit i'm a little disappointed people are still liking his page.



Anyone can buy fake likes.


----------



## possumkiller

I honestly do not understand why it would be so bad if it is a choice. I mean, I am straight as an arrow have kids been married twice and had some random fun with chicks earlier in life. However, I can say whether a man is attractive to my taste or not. Again, I am 100% not gay at all but if I were then I would be all about some Jack White or Johnny Depp. Those guys are just straight up hot pieces. I also fully support that people should be able to be with whoever they want to be with and not have to deal with people being assholes to them about it. 

My main beef with the idea that someone is born gay or not gay is that it just gives more credibility to the anti-gay people. It's almost like saying "It isn't my fault, I was born this way." It implies that being gay is still wrong but being born into it means the gay person is not at fault. 

I honestly don't if people are born gay or not and honestly I really don't care. It shouldn't matter. Even if a straight guy wants to be gay that's his life and his decision and nobody else's business.


----------



## Joose

On a photo of Per Nilsson with a Strandberg.


----------



## asher

Joose said:


> On a photo of Per Nilsson with a Strandberg.


----------



## asher

possumkiller said:


> I honestly do not understand why it would be so bad if it is a choice. I mean, I am straight as an arrow have kids been married twice and had some random fun with chicks earlier in life. However, I can say whether a man is attractive to my taste or not. Again, I am 100% not gay at all but if I were then I would be all about some Jack White or Johnny Depp. Those guys are just straight up hot pieces. I also fully support that people should be able to be with whoever they want to be with and not have to deal with people being assholes to them about it.
> 
> My main beef with the idea that someone is born gay or not gay is that it just gives more credibility to the anti-gay people. It's almost like saying "It isn't my fault, I was born this way." It implies that being gay is still wrong but being born into it means the gay person is not at fault.
> 
> I honestly don't if people are born gay or not and honestly I really don't care. It shouldn't matter. Even if a straight guy wants to be gay that's his life and his decision and nobody else's business.



Most of the people who yell about it think it's a choice and are horribly misinformed, or don't care and say that it's too bad, God hates you anyway.


----------



## FretsOnFyre

Joose said:


> On a photo of Per Nilsson with a Strandberg.



 Keith is the best


----------



## Hyacinth

possumkiller said:


> I honestly do not understand why it would be so bad if it is a choice. I mean, I am straight as an arrow have kids been married twice and had some random fun with chicks earlier in life. However, I can say whether a man is attractive to my taste or not. Again, I am 100% not gay at all but if I were then I would be all about some Jack White or Johnny Depp. Those guys are just straight up hot pieces. I also fully support that people should be able to be with whoever they want to be with and not have to deal with people being assholes to them about it.



I agree. Recognizing when someone (male or female) looks good is all about aesthetics. Like when a car looks good, or a guitar.


----------



## asher

MatthewLeisher said:


> I agree. Recognizing when someone (male or female) looks good is all about aesthetics. Like when a car looks good, or a guitar.



"Looks good" is a set of standards (I'm not going into some pop culture manufactured image stuff here, although that's possibly relevant) and different than what you _find yourself attracted to_.

Standards and tastes are after the fact rationalizations of why you sprung the boner. You don't look at someone, size them up, go "yep, I like" and _then_ get your chubby.

ed: Tone of this is much too harsh, I'm not sure why it came off like that. Don't take it as such. But I like my wording a little too much to rework it


----------



## Explorer

OmegaSlayer said:


> The real problem is that people who has problems with homosexuals is getting the difference between sodomy and anal intercourse.
> 
> In nature, sodomy is something that sometimes happens between the alpha male to submit other males of the pack.



You know, there's a topic in the Politics and Current Events forum regarding how Christianity Today and the Satanic Temple are united against child abuse and child beating, while many American Christian fundamentalists are on the other side, defending corporal punishment. Being able to beat one's child is considered a religious freedom issue by some. 

That's why the Satanic Temple has a campaign to help children report physical abuse. The Satanic Temple holds that one's physical person is inviolate, that another person does not have the right to abuse you. 

I just bring this up because, if you're arguing about someone requiring another to submit, this American Christian fundamentalist movement isn't just limited to children, but often extends to a husband physically disciplining his wife.

Going further, I know many Indians who are horrified and ashamed at the practice of wife beating and wife burning in India. 

I'm greatly curious about the assertion being made of homosexuality being violent, especially since it looks like others being violent towards homosexuals, and not the other way around. Did any actually post examples to back this up, or was it just a weird attempt to justify bigotry?

I did a search on wife burning, physical discipline of wives and children resulting in serious injury and death, gay bashing and gay killings, and on violent crimes committed by gays on heterosexuals. I found lots of everything except for the gay-on-hetero crime. 

In fact, I didn't find any examples of the latter, unless you count sodomy in the prison system, but that was situation and hetero on hetero. You're right, rape like that is a dominance thing, and happens in prison and in the military. But you're not making a case that homosexuals are violent. You're making a case that heterosexual males in power force sex on others. You even mentioned fear in a job situation, which is why in the US there are now protections against sexual harassment in the workplace, being forced to comply with sexual demands to protect one's employment and advancement opportunities.

Maybe you're arguing that sexual pressures from everyone should be protected against. I can agree with that. However, be aware that the genuine fear is often about the heterosexual males in charge. Ironically, an Italian friend of mine has mentioned that culture in Italy, where you also are from. (Oh, and she's a woman.) Do your female friends feel that sexual pressure in the workplace in Italy is a credible danger? Do *you* think it's a credible danger? Or, do you think homosexuals present more of a danger in this way?

See "The Invisible War," I believe currently on Netflix or Amazon Prime, if you want to see a disturbing documentary on how the US military has blackballed good people while promoting those who have engaged in sexual assault of their fellow servicemembers, both male and female. 

Anyway, I'm waiting for the examples, hopefully in numbers sufficient to at least balance the other examples I found. Coming soon? Or rhetorical overreach?


----------



## Explorer

The Church of Scientology holds that L. Ron Hubbard is a genius, and therefore everything he produced is a work of genius.

They have an active campaign to buy Hubbard's books from bookstores, then send them to the warehouse from which books are sent to bookstores, so that they can resell them to those bookstores again. In this way, the books sell at a brisk pace to the Church of Scientology itself, and Hubbard's name stays on bestseller lists. Friends of mine who have worked in that business have laughed about how the little anti-shoplifting tags in some of these books, each inserted when it made its way back to a bookstore kept growing more and more numerous, with some of them having more than 20 little mechanisms in them. *laugh*

When the movie "Battlefield Earth" came out, Scientologists, armed with money from their various branches of the Org, tried to stuff theaters so that the movie would have huge box office totals. Unfortunately for them, they weren't buying a product which they could then resell, so they were unable to keep cinemas even partially full. Their delusions came crashing to the ground regarding being able to artificially inflate the movie's reputation.

I believe this is similar to the way internet warriors want to support Vik, but without actually spending money. They want Vik to look like his business is in great shape after this, but unless they're spending money, it's all just empty words. 

Stuffing the ballot box with "likes" won't have any effect on his bottom line. You can't have a sustainable business based on the "Poor me, I'm being discriminated against for being a bigot!" platform. That will just get you a few handouts at best.

This topic reflects another recent US topic, wherein businesses which didn't want to engage in discrimination against the LGBT community in South Carolina put up stickers to that effect. Christian leaders in that state claimed that by not discriminating, and by displaying a sticker advertising that fact, those businesses were bullying Christians. Here's the topic, in case you're wondering how eating pork is discrimination against Muslims. *laugh*

The problem for discriminatory businesses is, bigots aren't in the majority. if your business model has bigotry in it, you're limiting your income pool. If you can steer clear of bigotry, you have more potential clients.

And if you can't, then you get the vocal crowd who won't necessarily put their money where their mouth is. 

*Short version - Likes =/= purchases.*


----------



## Andromalia

loqtrall said:


> Disclaimer (and I can't believe I have to put this): I wholeheartedly support the LGBT community, and believe everyone should lead their lives the way they want to.
> 
> But, where the hell did you come up with this?
> Racism is completely opinion.
> Hypothetically, if I think all Mexicans are dirty aliens who are stealing our jobs and deserve to be deported back to Mexico, that's completely my opinion. That's just it, my opinion, nothing else. That applies to all opinions. Just because someone doesn't like a guy's opinion doesn't deem it false.



An opinion is a point of view. to have a point of view, the subject of the point of view must be something about which there is no universal truth acknoledged at the time being. You can claim that the moon is square: it's not an opinion, it's ignorance of a stated and verified truth, and a mistake.

An opinion is a statement of a possible truth. It may be in error, but you can't say beforehand. "I think there may be aliens on galaxy Y" is an opinion.
"All mexicans are stealing our jobs" isn't an opinion either, because the real message is "Hey, I'll use that slogan so dumb people believing it vote for me". (Political racism is a commerce, I'm not sure any of those people are actually racist. But they do use racism of others as a mean of income, which sort of puts them in the same bag) or " a mexican got the job I wanted and I'm pissed off".

Therefore, "God does/doesn't exist" is an opinion. "Gays are inferiors" isn't. Because, specifically, they aren't, and we can prove it with science. That's the difference between having an opinion and being uneducated.


----------



## s4tch

^...and here's why the thread should remain open.


----------



## narad

Andromalia said:


> Therefore, "God does/doesn't exist" is an opinion. "Gays are inferiors" isn't. Because, specifically, they aren't, and we can prove it with science. That's the difference between having an opinion and being uneducated.



Not to completely play devil's advocate here, but I don't think an appeal to science is a good step in arguing for opinion vs. truth, and I think someone could still argue that "Gays are inferiors" is their opinion. 

This is simply due to science being an observation-based method, and therefore always limited to what is observable and bound by the error inherent in the process of observation. You could always doubt the methodology or the tools of a (/empirical) scientific conclusion. Contrast this with a closed system with a concrete definition of truth, like most mathematical systems. That is where your opinion can truly have no merit, and this is why the idea of a scientific proof is not widely accepted. 

Ohh, wikipedia gold: Satoshi Kanazawa has argued that "Proofs exist only in mathematics and logic, not in science."

And this is especially true of human cognition - historically we've been much more successful at understanding our outer surroundings than our inner workings, and there's plenty of room for interpretation when studying the brain. If I was trying to assert the equivalence of homosexuals/heterosexuals I think I'd still be inclined to appeal to common sense! And perhaps the _lack_ of scientific support for the contrary. If someone can't prove otherwise let's just take Occam's razor and call it a day!


----------



## possumkiller

Andromalia said:


> An opinion is a point of view. to have a point of view, the subject of the point of view must be something about which there is no universal truth acknoledged at the time being. You can claim that the moon is square: it's not an opinion, it's ignorance of a stated and verified truth, and a mistake.
> Therefore, "God does/doesn't exist" is an opinion. "Gays are inferiors" isn't. Because, specifically, they aren't, and we can prove it with science. That's the difference between having an opinion and being uneducated.



This statement would reduce almost all religion to simple fairy tales with life lessons in them. While I completely agree, that kind of thinking will never make it's way into the hardcore religious peoples' minds. 

Where I live I have to put up with this kind of crap all the time. There is a person in my life that I will not name who is an extreme homophobe and religious nut. Now this person has helped me out a lot and is always there when I need them. Also for other reasons I cant just cut them out of my life. Anyway, so this person is homophobic, racist, sexist holy rolling Pentecostal. Somehow he has black friends, gay friends, and female friends. According to them the bible is the word of god and should be followed literally by the letter (even though he doesn't come anywhere near close). Just yesterday I was hanging out at his place and there was some Eddie Murphy movie on about leaves falling off a tree every time he speaks. Out of the blue this guy says, "Don't you love how this movie is about the occult?" I just had a strange look on my face I guess. So he explained that apparently the hidden message of the movie for people who worship trees as gods. Of course he also had to comment in the day care scene when there was an interracial gay couple with a child. According to this person the "gay liberal" media is brainwashing our children and trying to force gayness onto the general population. 

When I was stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs I sometimes visited a preacher who had used to be the pastor at a church that a family member of mine used to attend when they were stationed there. The guy was very nice and polite and helpful. I was going through tough times in my previous marriage and he had good advice. We went for breakfast one morning and he asked me about my experience in the Iraq war. I told him that I was blown away by the people there. I had met a lot of Iraqi civilians and they completely changed my view. I explained how the vast majority of them are just like us. They drink. They smoke. They laugh. They like hot naked chicks. They have good food and they share. They just want to live their lives. This guy then proceeds to "educate" me about Islamic people by saying that their holy book commands them to take over the world and kill or enslave those who do not take their religion. And that was the last time I saw or spoke to him.

EDIT: I guess my point is that you simply cannot reason with people like this. They may be great people in other aspects of life but they are stupid enough to accept the circular logic of their religion and will never be able to accept reality. I think the debate should be about whether people are born with a mental illness that makes them take up religion so easily. 

I was raised in a very religious household. We went to church every sunday morning. Every sunday evening. Every Wednesday evening. And god forbid every ....ing night when revival was on. And hell on earth the one time that they had so much fun in revival that they had revival for two ....ing weeks. Anyway, just like santa claus, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy or any other bullshit stories you are told as a child eventually you grow up and realize that the shit just doesn't make sense. 

Even if the "gay liberal" media is trying to brainwash people, how is it any different than the church brainwashing people?


----------



## Andromalia

> Not to completely play devil's advocate here, but I don't think an appeal to science is a good step in arguing for opinion vs. truth, and I think someone could still argue that "Gays are inferiors" is their opinion.


Science is never wrong, it just changes theories in light of new data. 



> This statement would reduce almost all religion to simple fairy tales


I do not claim there is no God. I do claim I don't have a clue and I believe this not to be the case, because belief is the only thing left in this case. Belief isn't an opinion either, it's... belief. (Which has nothing to do with religion. Religion is a cult given to a god, not the god itself)
I know this can seem like nitpicking, but in these kind of discussions, words are _very_ important.


----------



## JaeSwift

Andromalia said:


> Science is never wrong, it just changes theories in light of new data.
> 
> 
> I do not claim there is no God. I do claim I don't have a clue and I believe this not to be the case, because belief is the only thing left in this case. Belief isn't an opinion either, it's... belief. (Which has nothing to do with religion. Religion is a cult given to a god, not the god itself)
> I know this can seem like nitpicking, but in these kind of discussions, words are _very_ important.



Great to see how a thread derailed from a guitar builder with a sense of self-importance (lightly put), lack of business-sense - and no sense to fellow human beings- to another religious discussion thread.


----------



## HurrDurr

**** Sorry for the 12-page analytical essay, but I felt it the best I could contribute as I've read this from the beginning and I've kept most of my opinions to myself until recent conversations seemed to provoke me to add to this ****

I'm going to contribute in the sense that although I agree with a lot of what's been said here by various folks, I personally believe that fear has a substantial part in why some are prejudiced towards certain groups of people.

I'd like to provide an example:
I've been doing a lot of thinking lately and I started thinking back to a time many years ago in my late-elementary years. I've never been against the LGBT community in my teenage-to-adult life _*(yes OK, I know this has been the gateway to "i'm not a racist but...". I need to mention this because I felt I should and it ties into the background story I'm going to provide.)*_, but as a child, I do remember being essentially uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality. My parents had never spoken to me about what it was and/or how it could or could not affect me, so naturally when I found out about it on my own, I just could not understand it. I was definitely not brought up in a hateful home, and although my parents might not have provided me with the direct information, I was never brought up with or exposed to hateful tendencies. Being as such, I didn't feel any need to oppress the LGBT community, I just *didn't understand it.* What did this promote? As I stated above, I was reasonably uncomfortable with the idea. I couldn't grasp how or why a person could possibly be attracted to someone of the same sex. With time, however, I understood. I didn't understand_* how*_, because I was _*not*_. I was *not gay*. I am *still* not gay. What did this mean? It meant that I realized I was uncomfortable around those who _*were*_ simply because I was *not* and since I didn't understand how a man could love another man, I was uncomfortable with that. _*I was afraid*_ of obvious and flagrant advances made upon me by members of the LGBT community who might have mistook my kindness for interest in them intimately, the same way a woman's kindness is often interpreted as an intimate invitation to men around her. After I'd received several such advances throughout my early teens, I had wrongfully made the assumption that most gay men probably wanted to put it in me and thus I became wary of them and although I still maintained my friendships with as well as my support for the LGBT community, I kept them at a distance. Years would pass by and I would eventually accept that I could _*never*_ fully understand homosexuality because I was not born a homosexual. In that acceptance, as I matured, I did fortunately come to the obvious and correct understanding that not all gay men were out to get me and in fact that _*none*_ were at all because 99.9% of the LGBT community is interested in what? Yes, other LGBT people *(wow, who knew, right?).* Once that was out of the way, my life instantly became better. I got over my fear of what I didn't understand, by understanding that while it might not seem normal to me and my body, it was the norm for someone else and accepting everyone for who they are has always been an easy and natural thing for me.

Now, where does this all lead us to? I believe that the reason you have such hateful folks is because they don't understand it, and a lot of what we don't understand is easy to be fearful of and even hate if you have been conditioned to do so by whatever culture you might have been brought up in *(ViK's Belarusian society is no excuse to say "well it's in his nature" because the same happens a lot here in the West and in Europe)*. And here's where the fear stems from: I have reason to believe that most bigoted men against homosexuality do in fact feel uncomfortable around gay men _*for the same reason*_ that women feel wary & uncomfortable around certain men. Look at it this way, sadly in our society, women are objectified and harassed by men simply because in some cases women feel powerless to stop them otherwise _(although certainly *not* true)_. *THAT IS HOW STRAIGHT MEN WHO DO NOT UNDERSTAND HOMOSEXUALITY FEEL AROUND GAY MEN.* It's that feeling that wherever you go, if there is a gay man present, he is going to eyeball you and objectify you as you would a woman and if there is _*one thing*_ on this earth that a traditionalistic _"manly mans man"_ is most fearful of in today's world, I believe, is being treated like a woman.

What's the solution? Education. Educate our children that there is no shame in being who you are. Educate them that there is no shame in being a woman, so that our boys (and future men) won't take to the tendencies of the brutes that have come before them and our girls will be powerful, independent women on par with men. Educate our future leaders that *equality for all* is a beautiful thing. Teach them that there is no such thing as tolerance for intolerance, but that intolerance is to be reformed peacefully.

What is there in life? Men and Women. They are two sides of the same coin, but they are one in that they are both human no matter what shape, size, color, or personality. To promote love is better than any hate, regardless of where the love is coming from or who they love. I don't understand why ViK has said the things that he has said and why he would react in such a way when it really is none of his business, but I can assure you that man does not have loving and spreading love as the first priority in his life and for that, although he has definitely garnered a certain amount dislike from me _*(as I have no patience and little tolerance for those whom refuse to at least attempt to love and accept)*_, I feel deeply sorry for him to an extent.

All of this is just my opinion. Feel free to agree/disagree/rep/neg/etc. as much as you'd like, but I personally agree with a lot of what's been said here in terms of those strongly in support of the LGBT community and with this comment, I'm done with this thread.


----------



## rectifryer

-One- said:


> I think the most disgusting part of this whole situation is what he said to Misha, after Misha paid for the complete balance of the guitar, and ViK had already not met the agreed deadline:



THIS.

Fuk that guy and everything he stands for!


----------



## rectifryer

HurrDurr said:


> ...



Well stated friend.


----------



## Joose

JaeSwift said:


> Great to see how a thread derailed from a guitar builder with a sense of self-importance (lightly put), lack of business-sense - and no sense to fellow human beings- to another religious discussion thread.



It was inevitable, as religion is the reason for most hatred.


----------



## Thorerges

Vik had also been late in delivering his guitar to Mehtab. 16 months if I remember. Well, too bad - it seems he's only after money, but he won't be making much more of that anymore.


----------



## Joel

Thorerges said:


> Vik had also been late in delivering his guitar to Mehtab. 16 months if I remember.



That's the best thing Vik has done!


----------



## Andromalia

JaeSwift said:


> Great to see how a thread derailed from a guitar builder with a sense of self-importance (lightly put), lack of business-sense - and no sense to fellow human beings- to another religious discussion thread.


You completely missed the point, that was an exemple. I can do that with string tension and setneck vs neckthrough too, if you want


----------



## crg123

Joel said:


> That's the best thing Vik has done!



 yessss


----------



## Hyacinth

asher said:


> "Looks good" is a set of standards (I'm not going into some pop culture manufactured image stuff here, although that's possibly relevant) and different than what you _find yourself attracted to_.
> 
> Standards and tastes are after the fact rationalizations of why you sprung the boner. You don't look at someone, size them up, go "yep, I like" and _then_ get your chubby.
> 
> ed: Tone of this is much too harsh, I'm not sure why it came off like that. Don't take it as such. But I like my wording a little too much to rework it



I didn't take offense bro, no worries! Re-reading my original post, I should have included this: You don't look at a nice looking guitar or car and get a boner, you just know it looks aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## ElRay

Toxic Dover said:


> ... It's also debatable (or at the very least a matter of opinion) on whether or not marriage is a religious institution ...


Wrong. It's not debatable at all. Historically, marriages go back further than your christian mythology. Plus, the basis for the U.S. legal marriage goes back to British Common (i.e. NOT religious) Law. Finally, even if the concept of marriage was created purely by your christian mythology, the U.S. Constitution prohibits the favoring of any religion/mythology over any other, which instantly requires the concept of a "legal" marriage, which can be defined anyway the law is written. Typical christian arrogance due to ignorance.


Toxic Dover said:


> ... Disagreeing with their lifestyle choices is another story, and it "hurts" nobody. ...



More arrogant, privileged majority christian nonsense.

*It's none of your damn business.*​
If your disagreement was confined to the level it warrants (e.g. putting chocolate ice cream on apple pie a la mode is wrong), then it would be one thing. The problem is that it isn't. Your mythology is used to support legally enforced discrimination and justify hate.

Would you tell lefties you disagree with their "choice" of hand use? Would you expect immunity from critique, commentary or criticism if you expressed your disagreement? How would a 1700 year old (the bible wasn't written until the late 4th century) mythology text make "disagreeing" with lefties acceptable?

The truly sad thing, is that you really can't even use your mythology to justify your arrogant, self-absorbed, position. Read your own mythological texts, and the history of the documents. You'll see:
"Homosexuality" is initially condemed in the Old Testament, but the correct translation of the Aramaic is "generic male relative". Which says nothing about lesbianism, trans-gendered folks or male-male homosexuality with non-relatives.
The Old Tesatment says that it's laws are immutable and unchanging.
The New Testament says the old laws are no longer in effect.
The New Testament says that the Old Laws are immutable and unchanging.
Paul (who never met the supposed Jesus, or anybody else who supposedly knew him directly), wrote his letters to the Roman and Greeks decades after the supposed events occured.
Paul's supposed anti-homosexual comments used words that could/should be translated as "flamboyant" and not exclusively "homosexual".
Only the gospels of Mathew & Luke, but not Mark & John, speak out against homosexuality. These are four books, that should agree, but don't because they were written decades appart and decades after Paul's letters, by people that were neither witnesses the supposed events, nor were in contact with anybody that could have been a witness.

In other words, get an education and get out of the dark ages. Stating that you have any reason to disagree with THEIR lifestyle because of your mythology is just indoctrinated nonsense. Add to that, the fact that you view yourself in the right and above criticism is pure arrogance and expectation of special privilege.


----------



## MetalDaze

MatthewLeisher said:


> I didn't take offense bro, no worries! Re-reading my original post, I should have included this: *You don't look at a nice looking guitar or car and get a boner*, you just know it looks aesthetically pleasing.



Actually, this guy does 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0S642NtHtE


----------



## ElRay

narad said:


> He recovered in "likes" very quickly, but I think it's very hard to analyze that and walk away with a sound conclusion, positive or negative. There's just a lot going on.


You know you can buy like on Facebook, don't you? Just like Engage and Methab do.


narad said:


> One thing I saw a few days ago was a woman in the comments arguing all about free speech, the right to publicly express a dislike of homosexuality, etc.


Nobody's saying you can't. The problem is that the bigots demand that they can spew their hate, but nobody can point out that they have no legal or logical found to stand on, nor can any point out that they're bigots, nor can anybody pass on the information, nor can anybody call for a boycott, etc. because of the expressed bigotry. They want free speech, but only for themselves.


----------



## ElRay

MatthewLeisher said:


> Jesus doesn't even speak about homosexuality ...


Actually, according to Mathew & Luke, he speaks about it, but according to Mark & John, he doesn't.


MatthewLeisher said:


> ... Also the bible says you can't eat crawfish or you're going to hell ...


The Old Testament says the laws are immutable and perpetual. So does the New Testament. But the New Testament also says that the Old Laws are no longer in effect, so that's what allows the bigotry justified by mythology folks to pick&chose what parts of the bible they want to enforce.


----------



## Andromalia

ElRay said:


> the U.S. Constitution prohibits the favoring of any religion/mythology over any other


Uh, by meaking the president swear on the Bible ?


----------



## stevexc

Andromalia said:


> Uh, by meaking the president swear on the Bible ?



For arguments' sake, that's customary - nobody is made to use any specific book, but the Christian presidents have used their Christian book. The point isn't that it's the bible, it's that it's a book the swearer holds in very high regards. There's precedents of presidents using books of laws.

What ElRay is referring to is that the gov't cannot make a law "respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" anyways - there is no law saying the president must be sworn in on a specific bible (different presidents have used different bibles) let alone any book at all.


----------



## narad

ElRay said:


> Nobody's saying you can't. The problem is that the bigots demand that they can spew their hate, but nobody can point out that they have no legal or logical found to stand on, nor can any point out that they're bigots, nor can anybody pass on the information, nor can anybody call for a boycott, etc. because of the expressed bigotry. They want free speech, but only for themselves.



Dude...that's like the most ridiculous out of context thing to quote me on. My point was only that internet activists with absolutely no interest in guitars or prog/metal music or ties to the community whatsoever are posting in Vik's FB threads. In other words, don't drag me into this!


----------



## ljones102

Vik posted this then quickly removed it


----------



## lewstherin006

ljones102 said:


> Vik posted this then quickly removed it



wow, Vik is just a horrible person.


----------



## Jonathan20022

Shots fired 

But in all seriousness, can't he just let it go? This has the same level fervor as a young woman gossiping about her friends in school.

"Just to clear this up, here's some more fire for the controversy that isn't doing me or my business any good"

That's essentially what I see, and before we make assumptions, Misha is active on here. Let's not start conspiracies and theories when the guy is on here and can speak for himself.


----------



## bulb

I love how he thinks he is somehow proving something against me with that post. 

I was trying to get a guitar I paid for in full months before and was promised would be ready at NAMM waiting for me. I offered to stay out of the mess he made for himself so I could finally get this guitar after over a year of delays from the original lead time. 
This was, of course, before I saw the email he sent to Nolly, the email which made it very clear that I should cut all ties with this dude:


----------



## stevexc

^^
I'm speechless, wow

actually no I have many things I want to say to that but most of them will get me banned


----------



## Preciousyetvicious

So he calls Nolly a p.... while complaining about "unprofessionalism."


----------



## JustMac

That's a slightly more convincing case but it still sounds like an "I'm alright, Jack" stance to take. Then again, I would probably have done the same in that situation . 

It's terrible that that you have to make a pact of silence on account of someone's unprofessional and childlike ways.


----------



## rectifryer

Explorer said:


> The Church of Scientology holds that L. Ron Hubbard is a genius, and therefore everything he produced is a work of genius.
> 
> They have an active campaign to buy Hubbard's books from bookstores, then send them to the warehouse from which books are sent to bookstores, so that they can resell them to those bookstores again. In this way, the books sell at a brisk pace to the Church of Scientology itself, and Hubbard's name stays on bestseller lists. Friends of mine who have worked in that business have laughed about how the little anti-shoplifting tags in some of these books, each inserted when it made its way back to a bookstore kept growing more and more numerous, with some of them having more than 20 little mechanisms in them. *laugh*
> 
> When the movie "Battlefield Earth" came out, Scientologists, armed with money from their various branches of the Org, tried to stuff theaters so that the movie would have huge box office totals. Unfortunately for them, they weren't buying a product which they could then resell, so they were unable to keep cinemas even partially full. Their delusions came crashing to the ground regarding being able to artificially inflate the movie's reputation.
> 
> I believe this is similar to the way internet warriors want to support Vik, but without actually spending money. They want Vik to look like his business is in great shape after this, but unless they're spending money, it's all just empty words.
> 
> Stuffing the ballot box with "likes" won't have any effect on his bottom line. You can't have a sustainable business based on the "Poor me, I'm being discriminated against for being a bigot!" platform. That will just get you a few handouts at best.
> 
> This topic reflects another recent US topic, wherein businesses which didn't want to engage in discrimination against the LGBT community in South Carolina put up stickers to that effect. Christian leaders in that state claimed that by not discriminating, and by displaying a sticker advertising that fact, those businesses were bullying Christians. Here's the topic, in case you're wondering how eating pork is discrimination against Muslims. *laugh*
> 
> The problem for discriminatory businesses is, bigots aren't in the majority. if your business model has bigotry in it, you're limiting your income pool. If you can steer clear of bigotry, you have more potential clients.
> 
> And if you can't, then you get the vocal crowd who won't necessarily put their money where their mouth is.
> 
> *Short version - Likes =/= purchases.*


LOL it's kind of like how Bret Micheals has almost a million likes on facebook but only a couple thousand people bought his last album. That has to be insulting.

Also, the metal sucks article is pretty funny:

http://www.metalsucks.net/2014/05/1...onger-appreciate-utilize-account-homosexuals/


----------



## AxeHappy

Wow. Those messages are unbelievable.


----------



## flint757

I find it humorous that he thinks that screenshot is damning, referring to Vik, when in reality it makes him look like an even shittier business man. How is telling someone you aren't giving them the guitar they paid for damning information towards the other party?


----------



## bulb

flint757 said:


> I find it humorous that he thinks that screenshot is damning, referring to Vik, when in reality it makes him look like an even shittier business man. How is telling someone you aren't giving them the guitar they paid for damning information towards the other party?



I'm starting to think he might not be the sharpest tool in the shed...


----------



## MobiusR

bulb said:


> I love how he thinks he is somehow proving something against me with that post.
> 
> I was trying to get a guitar I paid for in full months before and was promised would be ready at NAMM waiting for me. I offered to stay out of the mess he made for himself so I could finally get this guitar after over a year of delays from the original lead time.
> This was, of course, before I saw the email he sent to Nolly, the email which made it very clear that I should cut all ties with this dude:





WOAHHHHHHHHHH THIS GUY IS ....ING CRAZY

"lead to the end of humanity?" 

HOW STUPID AND IGNORANT CAN HE BE?


----------



## Hollowway

And yet people keep posting in here that "Vik doesn't have any problem with gays, he just doesn't like their choices." Um, he said flat out he doesn't like gays, so...


----------



## Necris

bulb said:


> I'm starting to think he might not be the sharpest tool in the shed...



He is, however, a tool.


----------



## Floppystrings

Has anyone considered a class action lawsuit to get refund for all of their guitars?

This is blatant sexual orientation discrimination by a private business, which is illegal in many states in the US.

International human rights law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Freedom from discrimination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Belarus is subject to US sanctions for &#8220;undermining democratic process and constituting an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States&#8221;.[13] *It is also subject to sanctions imposed by the European Union for human-rights violations.*"

"Directive 2004/113/EC extends protection against sexual discrimination to the area of goods and services"

Source: A framework strategy for non-discrimination and equal opportunities for all

So, it appears that it is illegal to discriminate in the country he lives in, covered by human rights laws under fundamental right within the European Union, of which his country is part of. 

I think someone forgot free speech as a business owner is illegal when it involves discrimination in the area of goods and services.


----------



## ramses

Floppystrings said:


> Has anyone considered a class action lawsuit to get refund for all of their guitars?



I believe people would rather get their guitars.

He is a horrible business-man, and also hates people he should not hate. However, he is still building the guitars he was paid to build.


----------



## tacotiklah

bulb said:


> I'm starting to think he might not be the sharpest tool in the shed...



Nope, definitely not the sharpest blade in the Halloween candy.

"Hey guys, let me post proof of me trying to extort a customer. That'll really show that ex-customer!"


----------



## abandonist

29 pages?

Get ahold of yourselves.


----------



## Joose

abandonist said:


> 29 pages?
> 
> Get ahold of yourselves.



It's a serious issue. Especially when you consider the musicians associated with the entire situation.


----------



## Slunk Dragon

I think Vik calling Nolly unprofessional should be the final nail in the coffin.

At this point, the only logical reason I can find for somebody supporting Vik in ANY manner is to get a guitar from him.

Stop wet-dreaming, there are far better luthiers out there who are overall more awesome human beings than him. This is almost exactly like the scandal with Donald Sterling, if not the same!!!


----------



## chassless

i have a feeling that Vik has orchestrated a spectacular, notorious, controversial swansong on social media simply to steal people's money (like in Misha's case in this last page) so he could disappear on a distant, remote tropical island somewhere.


----------



## Goro923

chassless said:


> i have a feeling that Vik has orchestrated a spectacular, notorious, controversial swansong on social media simply to steal people's money (like in Misha's case in this last page) so he could disappear on a distant, remote tropical island somewhere.



Dude, tropical islands are _swarming_ with gay propaganda that will once lead to the end of humanity. Even I know that


----------



## ElRay

Andromalia said:


> Uh, by meaking the president swear on the Bible ?


Unfortunately, a lot of our politicians don't follow The Constitution, or worse yet, read it and actually think it supports their positions.


----------



## chassless

Goro923 said:


> Dude, tropical islands are _swarming_ with gay propaganda that will once lead to the end of humanity. Even I know that



 maybe he's just looking for his chance to exorcise himself of his deep rooted insecurities by living his fears. 



ramses said:


> I believe people would rather get their guitars.



i believe not. if i were in such a situation, i would personally prefer to have my money back rather than carry a guitar from that luthier and contribute to his dishonest business. i think a lot of people would feel the same.



ramses said:


> However, he is still building the guitars he was paid to build.



but wasn't this the problem? he's not building some delayed guitars for people who already paid in full.


----------



## BlindingLight7

People are still talking about this?


----------



## Zalbu

BlindingLight7 said:


> People are still talking about this?


Yes, and for good reasons.


----------



## Runner

Floppystrings said:


> ...the European Union, of which his country is part of.



That is not true. Belarus is a member of the so-called "Eastern Partnership" with the EU, a program to improve trade relations and such, but they are not part of the EU.


----------



## Señor Voorhees

Floppystrings said:


> Has anyone considered a class action lawsuit to get refund for all of their guitars?
> 
> This is blatant sexual orientation discrimination by a private business, which is illegal in many states in the US.
> 
> International human rights law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Freedom from discrimination - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> "Belarus is subject to US sanctions for undermining democratic process and constituting an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.[13] *It is also subject to sanctions imposed by the European Union for human-rights violations.*"
> 
> "Directive 2004/113/EC extends protection against sexual discrimination to the area of goods and services"
> 
> Source: A framework strategy for non-discrimination and equal opportunities for all
> 
> So, it appears that it is illegal to discriminate in the country he lives in, covered by human rights laws under fundamental right within the European Union, of which his country is part of.
> 
> I think someone forgot free speech as a business owner is illegal when it involves discrimination in the area of goods and services.



I didn't read the everything after this, so it might have already been said, but he's not violating human rights exactly. He is legally allowed to do what he's doing, even if it makes him a piece of shit. He's refusing to give bulb his guitar because Bulb's a pretty big name, and in his eyes, did something to hurt his business. It's not so much his lgbt support as it is his influence that seems to be Vik's worry. (To which I say, .... him... He could have handled this much better, even with the bigotry.)

He's allowed to refuse service for whatever reason he feels. Being gay isn't something that pops up when buying guitars. Because of that, anyone who brings it up while ordering can be refused service because they're "antagonizing" him. Like an "_I'm_ gay... Still gonna build _me_ a guitar?" Kind of thing. He can just claim that he felt insulted, which even if he deserves it, is a legit reason for refusing service if you so choose.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that legally he's allowed not to like gays and even voice his shitty opinion, so long as it doesn't bring harm onto others. I hate a lot of the drug addicts and shit I sell stuff to, but I still provide my service. (As an example, I'm not comparing gays to drug addicts.) Because being gay is completely irrelevant to ordering a guitar, he can exploit what can best be described as a loophole, by refusing service to people who bring it up because they're just antagonizing him/harassing him.

The short is, he's a dick but he's not really breaking any laws. People just need to stop giving him money, which will never happen.


----------



## abandonist

Zalbu said:


> Yes, and for good reasons.



Dude says shitty thing and y'all are turning it into a Nancy Grace circus show.


----------



## bulb

abandonist said:


> Dude says shitty thing and y'all are turning it into a Nancy Grace circus show.



And now you have made yourself part of it, welcome!


----------



## abandonist

Oh please. 

"You commented so you must care so much!"


----------



## Don Vito

abandonist is back


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

The king of edge has returned.


----------



## tacotiklah

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> The king of edge has returned.













Back on-topic:
Vik just needs to stop. I'm surprised China isn't complaining of sinkholes given how far of a hole Vik is digging for himself. Shame that he won't focus more on guitars and on reading up on how to not be a douche.


----------



## bulb

abandonist said:


> Oh please.
> 
> "You commented so you must care so much!"



A response to a statement that didn't end with a question mark? You are now officially inducted! You will do just great here, nice to meet you buddy.


----------



## Joose

abandonist said:


> Dude says shitty thing and y'all are turning it into a Nancy Grace circus show.



Welcome back, btw. Try to last more than a week, yeah?

Also, you should really read/skim through the thread. Look at the screenshots, see how far this jackass has really taken it. It goes far beyond him "saying a shitty thing". 

He has said and done many shitty things.

Add in the fact that we have some members here who, for some reason, support him and others who don't seem to be able to grasp the issue and you'll have yourself an interesting read.


----------



## abandonist

bulb said:


> A response to a statement that didn't end with a question mark?



I didn't know I needed to be invited to respond. 


OT
The guy is bad at business and has lame personal beliefs. About 10 members don't care, or agree with him. The rest are congratulating themselves on their outrage. All I'm getting at is there's no reason for this to be such a big deal. Yeah, it's lame - but his practices only affect about 20 people.


----------



## Vhyle

"I use my ViK as a buttplug, out of spite" - Tom


----------



## Joose

abandonist said:


> I didn't know I needed to be invited to respond.
> 
> 
> OT
> The guy is bad at business and has lame personal beliefs. About 10 members don't care, or agree with him. The rest are congratulating themselves on their outrage. All I'm getting at is there's no reason for this to be such a big deal. Yeah, it's lame - but his practices only affect about 20 people.



There's this thing, in life, called the bigger picture.


----------



## abandonist

What's the bigger picture here?

Tell me.


----------



## Zalbu

abandonist said:


> Dude says shitty thing and y'all are turning it into a Nancy Grace circus show.


Maybe it's not we that cares too much but you that cares too little?


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

abandonist said:


> What's the bigger picture here?
> 
> Tell me.


People are being hated, thrown out of their parents homes, denied the right to marry (though that's changing in the U.S.), assaulted etc, just for being who they are. And that's just in the U.S. gay people in Uganda have had their home addresses posted in the local news papers with instructions for people to hunt and kill them, and we all know how lazy and corrupted the governments in some third world countries are. 

So yeah it's a big ....ing deal.


----------



## Joose

abandonist said:


> What's the bigger picture here?
> 
> Tell me.



It's not difficult to figure out. Homophobia, bigotry, unprofessionalism, the musicians involved, the asshattery, a bunch of metalheads (supposedly the scum of the Earth in the eyes of many) expressing positive views on something the "good people" view as Hell-worthy, etc.


----------



## abandonist

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> People are being hated, thrown out of their parents homes, denied the right to marry (though that's changing in the U.S.), assaulted etc, just for being who they are. And that's just in the U.S. gay people in Uganda have had their home addresses posted in the local news papers with instructions for people to hunt and kill them, and we all know how lazy and corrupted the governments in some third world countries are.
> 
> So yeah it's a big ....ing deal.



Yes. A measured response is to compare a guy that doesn't like gay people with complete social injustice. That's called scapegoating.


----------



## Joose

All-in-all, this is a very positive, faith in humanity restoring thread; and that's a pretty nice change of pace here on SS.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

abandonist said:


> Yes. A measured response is to compare a guy that doesn't like gay people with complete social injustice. That's called scapegoating.


Taken from GMT's Signature:



> We must not indulge in unfavorable views of mankind, since by doing it we make bad men believe they are no worse than others, and we teach the good that they are good in vain


----------



## abandonist

*The World's Largest Eyeroll*

I'll let y'all get back to feeling great about how enlightened you are, while affecting no change what so ever.


----------



## stevexc

abandonist said:


> Yes. A measured response is to compare a guy that doesn't like gay people with complete social injustice. That's called scapegoating.



As little as I want to feed the troll....

"Scapegoating" would be saying "ViK's business crashed because of gay people".

"Not liking [gay,black,female,jewish,etc] people" is actually a very accurate definition of "social injustice".


----------



## Joose

abandonist said:


> *The World's Largest Eyeroll*



I do that to most of what you post.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

abandonist said:


> *The World's Largest Eyeroll*
> 
> I'll let y'all get back to feeling great about how enlightened you are, while affecting no change what so ever.


You could try a little harder with the pot stirring, it's starting to lose it's charm.


----------



## Joose

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> You could try a little harder with the pot stirring, it's starting to lose it's charm.



For real though. When did he get so weak? Too many bans?

But seriously, abandonist, you can see everyone as sitting on a high horse of enlightenment all you want... but the fact is, you are such a minority there.


----------



## Floppystrings

abandonist said:


> I didn't know I needed to be invited to respond.
> 
> 
> OT
> The guy is bad at business and has lame personal beliefs. About 10 members don't care, or agree with him. The rest are congratulating themselves on their outrage. All I'm getting at is there's no reason for this to be such a big deal. Yeah, it's lame - but his practices only affect about 20 people.



His words have lowered the value of every guitar that bares his name. And if it angers straight people like me than it is effecting a lot more than 20 people. 

It's not every day you find out someone you payed $5000 to is a openly hateful asshole. I feel really bad for Vik owners.

Also, whats wrong with fighting for equality? Whats wrong with being outraged when seeing ignorant hate? I see that as a perfectly normal reaction when you experience, see it, or know people who have experienced it.


----------



## abandonist

Just for the record, there's nothing wrong with fighting for equality, and I think the guy sucks too. It's knowing when to pick your battle. On the list of gay rights problems this ranks right above triviality. 

There is much about myself I normally choose to not discuss on this site, but I'll make an exception to illustrate a point. I struggle with gender identity problems. When I see people making a huge deal out of something that doesn't actually advance anything other than their own notions, while congratulating themselves on being so progressive, it makes me sad. When things that truly matter in the war are going down every day and might receive a cursory mention, if that. I'm not insensitive to context either. This is a guitar forum and a guitar builder came out as a bigot. Sure, that merits a thread. Does it need this level of exposure? I don't think so. It should be a time where we all just go "typical" and move right along. But here we are because a dogpile feel good. 

So don't try and paint me in a bad light in terms of fighting for what's right. I live this.


----------



## UnderTheSign

abandonist said:


> Just for the record, there's nothing wrong with fighting for equality, and I think the guy sucks too. It's knowing when to pick your battle. On the list of gay rights problems this ranks right above triviality.
> 
> There is much about myself I normally choose to not discuss on this site, but I'll make an exception to illustrate a point. I struggle with gender identity problems. When I see people making a huge deal out of something that doesn't actually advance anything other than their own notions, while congratulating themselves on being so progressive, it makes me sad. When things that truly matter in the war are going down every day and might receive a cursory mention, if that. I'm not insensitive to context either. This is a guitar forum and a guitar builder came out as a bigot. Sure, that merits a thread. Does it need this level of exposure? I don't think so. It should be a time where we all just go "typical" and move right along. But here we are because a dogpile feel good.
> 
> So don't try and paint me in a bad light in terms of fighting for what's right. I live this.


Now, if you'd have posted this earlier on it would've saved us another page in the thread. This is how pages pile up (just look at how every guy that came in blabbing "you're intolerant for not tolerating his choices!" caused another 10-20 reponses). I wouldn't say that's a bad thing per se, actively shitting on ignorance and bigotry is after all a pretty fun thing to do (and necessary, IMO).

Do I think we should all fist bump and congratulate ourselves/each other on how totally supportive of LGBTQ+ we are? Nah. This shouldn't be about supporters patting their own backs over how supportive they are... But I won't deny I dig it when I see people lash out against asshats like this.


----------



## Floppystrings

The most effective way to progress intolerance is to never tolerate it, even on the smallest level. I have no problem seeing hateful people being dogpiled, we are nearing the point where people like Vik need to be made an example of. 

I could be contacting his wood suppliers right now to let them know of his views, I could be contacting his neighbors, his mail man. People like Vik that live in a bubble need a reality check.

I don't pat myself on the back because my stance for equality is something I view as totally normal, and what will be the common view in the future as we progress.


----------



## wespaul

abandonist said:


> Just for the record, there's nothing wrong with fighting for equality, and I think the guy sucks too. It's knowing when to pick your battle. On the list of gay rights problems this ranks right above triviality.
> 
> There is much about myself I normally choose to not discuss on this site, but I'll make an exception to illustrate a point. I struggle with gender identity problems. When I see people making a huge deal out of something that doesn't actually advance anything other than their own notions, while congratulating themselves on being so progressive, it makes me sad. When things that truly matter in the war are going down every day and might receive a cursory mention, if that. I'm not insensitive to context either. This is a guitar forum and a guitar builder came out as a bigot. Sure, that merits a thread. Does it need this level of exposure? I don't think so. It should be a time where we all just go "typical" and move right along. But here we are because a dogpile feel good.
> 
> So don't try and paint me in a bad light in terms of fighting for what's right. I live this.



You don't own a headless guitar, do you?


----------



## abandonist

I do!


----------



## abandonist

Floppystrings said:


> The most effective way to progress intolerance is to never tolerate it, even on the smallest level. I have no problem seeing hateful people being dogpiled, we are nearing the point where people like Vik need to be made an example of.
> 
> I could be contacting his wood suppliers right now to let them know of his views, I could be contacting his neighbors, his mail man. People like Vik that live in a bubble need a reality check.
> 
> I don't pat myself on the back because my stance for equality is something I view as totally normal, and what will be the common view in the future as we progress.



The danger with this is that you're turning him into a pariah by contacting all those people, which will only further his views. He then gets to say "look what the gays and their friends did to me". Which is why I maintain the best action is just laughter and shunning.


----------



## Joose

Tell ya what though... Vik deserves a swift kick to the head; for this and things of the past. 

He is an asshole, there is no denying that. Seeing as how he builds guitars and this is a guitar-based forum... I think we should continue bashing the twat.


----------



## Explorer

abandonist said:


> The danger with this is that you're turning him into a pariah by contacting all those people, which will only further his views. He then gets to say "look what the gays and their friends did to me". Which is why I maintain the best action is just laughter and shunning.



Actually, I don't think you encouraged that. 

Instead, you came across as mocking and dismissing those who decry homophobia. 

Can you point to any of your earlier unedited comments which support this revisionist vision of yourself which you are encouraging?

Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Explorer said:


> Actually, I don't think you encouraged that.
> 
> Instead, you came across as mocking and dismissing those who decry homophobia.
> 
> Can you point to any of your earlier unedited comments which support this revisionist vision of yourself which you are encouraging?
> 
> Otherwise, I'm calling shenanigans.


He never edited any of his posts.


----------



## abandonist

I definitely decry people calling him out for homophobia. It's not necessary to support any cause. Just call him an asshole and move on. Picking battles like this are useless, when the grand scheme is so much bigger. Lots of folks are quick to scream homophobia when it means nothing to do over the internet, while claiming social injustice. When it comes to their day to day life they're just an armchair journalist crying about an isolated incident. 

Call shenanigans till you're blue. It doesn't matter.


----------



## Floppystrings

abandonist said:


> The danger with this is that you're turning him into a pariah by contacting all those people, which will only further his views. He then gets to say "look what the gays and their friends did to me". Which is why I maintain the best action is just laughter and shunning.



Thats why I'm not doing those things.

I have mellowed out a bit since my other posts. The best thing to do is just call the guy as asshole.

I can't believe he was so stupid with expressing his hate openly. He dug his own grave for his business, no more help needed.


----------



## Explorer

abandonist said:


> Picking battles like this are useless, when the grand scheme is so much bigger.



It's actually kind of funny, in that you're investing the time in posting in this topic when you're claiming it's not as important as the rest of us perceive it to be. Your actions are speaking louder than your words.

Only a lack of words from you would prove how little importance this topic holds for you. 

Failage.


----------



## abandonist

I'm not sure you're accomplishing what you think you're accomplishing.


----------



## Wings of Obsidian

Homophobia: the fear of being sexually involved with another individual of the same gender and perchance liking it.

^ Something tells me we need to bring Vik over here and throw him in prison in the USA for a day. Might change his viewpoints.


----------



## jay moth

Have any of You ever been in Eastern Europe? 

Thing is, while Vik is dealing with people from different countries, he still lives in Belarus, right? And in Eastern Europe some countries like Czech Republic are quite liberal and tolerant. Some, like Poland - depends, in big cities it's getting there slowly, but still, there are places, where one can get a beating for being "different". And then there are countries like Belarus. He's not an island, trust me. Feel free to contact everyone he knows. I can assure You, most of them can't speak English, and most of them are as intolerant as he is. 

In day of globalisation is easy to forget, that not every part of the world is the same. In some of the Eastern European countries, most probably in Belarus as well, if one will dress overly flamboyant to express ones homosexual attitude, will get a solid beating from local skinheads, and then from local police, or however it's called now, probably Militia, or something similar. That's how it is there.


----------



## ferret

The existence of many intolerant people in a particular area is not an excuse to shrug and ignore intolerance, bigotry, hate.

This idea of "Everyone here hates gays guys, not just him, so it's ok." ...... isn't ok.


----------



## s4tch

jay moth said:


> Have any of You ever been in Eastern Europe?
> 
> Thing is, while Vik is dealing with people from different countries, he still lives in Belarus, right? ...



I live in Eastern Europe, and I'm aware of the fact that our society has much to learn. I've already addressed this point of view to the readers/contributors of this tread, but I'd never use this as an excuse to justify Vik's behavior.



jay moth said:


> I can assure You, most of them can't speak English, and most of them are as intolerant as he is.



Speaking or not speaking English is not part of the whole issue. Anyway, Vik's English is pretty good as far as I can tell, he deals with international clients on a global market, so no excuse here either.

(BTW, the Czech Republic as a whole is not as tolerant as Prague, the city you most likely had visited. The same goes for Hungary, too: Budapest and some other parts of the country are like they were on a different planet.)


----------



## jay moth

> This idea of "Everyone here hates gays guys, not just him, so it's ok." ...... isn't ok.


You've missed the idea entirely. The idea is, trying to "stigmatize" him wouldn't work. Someone had an idea, to let know "everyone he ever talked to" that he is intolerant. And that wouldn't work. I mean, I don't get why everyone is so surprised with Belarusian being not-very-friendly towards gay people. I'm not saying it's ok, but I'm puzzled why everyone seems to be so surprised.



> Speaking or not speaking English is not part of the whole issue. Anyway, Vik's English is pretty good as far as I can tell, he deals with international clients on a global market, so no excuse here either.


Again, missing the point. I'm like, "contact them all, good luck". 

Czech Republic is overall way more tolerant than Poland for that matter. Lived in Poland quite close to border with Czech Republic for quite a long time. To be honest, while playing live in Poland is fine, playing in Czech Republic is great... and playing in Ukraine and Belarus is terrible. At least for me personally. Mainly because of authorities being "oh, those from the bands, they're obviously a drug dealers".


----------



## stevexc

jay moth said:


> You've missed the idea entirely. The idea is, trying to "stigmatize" him wouldn't work. Someone had an idea, to let know "everyone he ever talked to" that he is intolerant. And that wouldn't work. I mean, I don't get why everyone is so surprised with Belarusian being not-very-friendly towards gay people. I'm not saying it's ok, but I'm puzzled why everyone seems to be so surprised.
> 
> Again, missing the point. I'm like, "contact them all, good luck".



"Surprise" has nothing to do with it. "Renowned luthier spreading hatespeech, alienating his customer base, and extorting money and support from his endorsees being offensive" is the entire issue.

Where he is from is entirely irrelevant. If he were from America, if he were from Korea, if he were from the goddamn moon he's still a hateful, homophobic bigot.

So what is it exactly you're trying to say? That we should ignore him because "Oh, they don't like gays over there anyways"? That we should reinforce the (misguided) notion that it's okay to do ANY of the crap he did?


----------



## jay moth

What I'm trying to say, is this guy is apparently skilled luthier. And this is all that matters from my point of view. Being a dick is not illegal as far as I remember, so why would I care, as a customer what the guy is about? I'm paying for his skills, not how decent human being he is. Although, he should get a PR guy if he cannot deal with that by himself, but that's different matter.

What I'm also trying to say, is making so much drama, because some Belarusian guy is homophobic is as stupid as making drama, because some Cuban guy is communist... I mean, hardly an unexpected turn.

Also: a lot of famous people are dicks in their private lifes. Eric Clapton is rasist. Does that mean it should be a massive 30-page thread about not listening to him anymore? Give me a break.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands

jay moth said:


> What I'm trying to say, is this guy is apparently skilled luthier. And this is all that matters from my point of view. Being a dick is not illegal as far as I remember, so why would I care, as a customer what the guy is about? I'm paying for his skills, not how decent human being he is.



Did you miss the parts where some guys have been waiting _forever_ for their guitars, plus the fact that Misha didn't get his money back until this shitstorm hit the peak? People seem to be cherrypicking details in order to defend the guy.


----------



## jay moth

Tell me how only Vik is delaying everything. A lot of small, and not so small custom shops has problems with delays, and refunds. And again - he's a terrible businessman, no doubts about it. 

What made You think I'm defending him? I'm just against making it so over the top.


----------



## stevexc

jay moth said:


> Being a dick is not illegal as far as I remember, so why would I care, as a customer what the guy is about?



Charging gay people double - regardless if it was a joke or not - is a human rights violation.



jay moth said:


> Tell me how only Vik is delaying everything. A lot of small, and not so small custom shops has problems with delays, and refunds. And again - he's a terrible businessman, no doubts about it.
> 
> What made You think I'm defending him? I'm just against making it so over the top.



He's taking huge - multiyear - delays in producing and shipping PAYING CUSTOMERS' instruments (even bringing one to NAMM with him without permission from the customer that, as far as I recall, has still not been delivered) while putting endorsees at the top of the list.

Why are you trying so hard to defend him? His guitars aren't even that great compared to a lot of other luthiers with actual business (and personal) ethics. Plus you'll actually get it.


----------



## fps

jay moth said:


> What I'm trying to say, is this guy is apparently skilled luthier. And this is all that matters from my point of view. Being a dick is not illegal as far as I remember, so why would I care, as a customer what the guy is about? I'm paying for his skills, not how decent human being he is. Although, he should get a PR guy if he cannot deal with that by himself, but that's different matter.



Because if you're gay, you probably don't want to give your money to someone who hates you for being who you naturally are. And if you're straight, you may well not like someone who wants to make life as difficult as possible for people just because of who they naturally are.


----------



## Winspear

jay moth said:


> Tell me how only Vik is delaying everything.



He actually asked me this himself. As I told him, the difference is, most reputable luthiers keep communication, are honest and don't lie multiple times making false promises. In our discussion it was quite clear he thought he was an exception to the rule, and that anyone bringing up these complaints was a liar out to slander him.


----------



## Promit

Promit said:


> The thread is still going because like clockwork every two days, some new person drops in, reads the first page, and voices some ignorant thought about how Vik is just expressing an opinion that has nothing to do with his business and it shouldn't affect anything and it's not hateful and the upset ones are hateful.


Still happening.


----------



## jay moth

> Charging gay people double - regardless if it was a joke or not - is a human rights violation.


Did he charge anyone double? If he didn't, then there's no case. If someone will tell You, that tuning pegs will be made out of elephants' horn, will You believe it, and take it to the court? Sorry, comment on FB is not violation of anything. Show me invoice with gay person being charged double. Or stop making a problem bigger than it is.



> He's taking huge - multiyear - delays in producing and shipping PAYING CUSTOMERS' instruments


Go through NGDs in here. Do I remember correctly someone had a Jackson delayed by a year or so? I do remember however a Jackson custom with wrong specification. Actually, two of them. 



> while putting endorsees at the top of the list.


(Almost) everyone is doing that. I hate it as much as You do, much that's how it is.



> Why are you trying so hard to defend him?


I'm not. I don't care who he is, I don't have his guitar, and not going to buy one anytime soon. Just enjoying a discussion really. I'm having fun, do You?


----------



## flint757

Read the thread and you'll get a better idea of the situation. Your responses tell me you haven't actually done that.


----------



## Hollowway

jay moth said:


> What I'm trying to say, is this guy is apparently skilled luthier. And this is all that matters from my point of view. Being a dick is not illegal as far as I remember, so why would I care, as a customer what the guy is about? I'm paying for his skills, not how decent human being he is.



That's your prerogative. But don't tell me I'm stupid if what matters to me is more than whether he's a skilled luthier. It does matter to me whether I am supporting someone who is a dick or not. I would prefer, when possible, to only support decent human beings. If you don't care about that, then fine. But don't come in here and tell me, or any of the rest of us, how to act.

And for the record, if I see Clapton say something racist, then yeah, I probably won't buy a Clapton album.


----------



## s4tch

Hollowway said:


> And for the record, if I see Clapton say something racist, then yeah, I probably won't buy a Clapton album.



Same here, as I don't listen to Lostprophets anymore. Too bad, I really enjoyed Liberation Transmission.


----------



## spawnofthesith

Clapton is pretty ....ing racist


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

spawnofthesith said:


> Clapton is pretty ....ing racist


Clapton is in a weird spot between racist and I don't know what. I mean there was that incident at one of his concerts in the 70's but he frequently hung out with Jimi Hendrix (hell he even bought him a left handed strat for his birthday but jimi passed on before he could give it to him) and he plays with Buddy Guy and B.B. King a lot as well. So who the hell knows.


----------



## jay moth

On Clapton, straight from Wikipedia, as that's first link in Google:


> Clapton told the crowd that England had "become overcrowded" and that they should vote for Powell to stop Britain from becoming "a black colony". He also told the audience that Britain should "get the foreigners out, get the wogs out, get the coons out", and then he repeatedly shouted the National Front slogan "Keep Britain White".


Rock Against Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's a well known fact. Not even starting on Jimmy Page and 14yr old Lori Maddox.



> But don't come in here and tell me, or any of the rest of us, how to act.


...While I'll tell everyone not to tolerate Vik. Sure.

I'm not telling You what to do, I'm just wondering why You're acting so over the top. Seriously, I'm just curious how You'll stand against different opinion. So far I'm not getting any good responses apart from "read the whole thread". I did already. It was boring, but I did. And I see mostly a lot of overreactions from every side of the... "conflict".


----------



## flint757

So you believe someone extorting another person to be 'no big deal' then? Whether or not he is a good guitar builder, supporting someone via likes, attention, money, etc. gives credence to his ideas and his business practices, which are both terrible.

You should read the Vik Guitar Discussion thread as well as it will shed a light for you on his poor business practices even prior to the current drama. The thread is called round 3 for a reason after all. He is a shitty business man at his core and that has been going on for a lot longer than this debacle.


----------



## jay moth

> So you believe someone extorting another person to be 'no big deal' then?


That's exactly my point of view. As long, as You're not doing anything illegal, You can hate whoever You want for any reasons. And frankly, most of musicians said something stupid at least once in their lifetimes, especially those from metal genre, and while I don't agree with them, I still like their music. And a quick question for those, who suddenly aren't even going to touch anything Vik-made - have You got anything from Apple? Have You seen their factories? I can understand not buying something, because of ideologic reasons, but Vik did less "evil things" than Apple... Just saying.



> He is a shitty business man at his core and that has been going on for a lot longer than this debacle.



Have You read my posts? A page ago I wrote more or less the same sentence.


----------



## Hollowway

jay moth said:


> On Clapton, straight from Wikipedia, as that's first link in Google:
> 
> Rock Against Racism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> It's a well known fact. Not even starting on Jimmy Page and 14yr old Lori Maddox.
> 
> 
> ...While I'll tell everyone not to tolerate Vik. Sure.
> 
> I'm not telling You what to do, I'm just wondering why You're acting so over the top. Seriously, I'm just curious how You'll stand against different opinion. So far I'm not getting any good responses apart from "read the whole thread". I did already. It was boring, but I did. And I see mostly a lot of overreactions from every side of the... "conflict".



Well, you're saying I am (we are) overreacting. I don't think I'm overreacting. I think I'm reacting just the right amount. You're welcome to criticize me for acting the way I am, but that sort of means you have to let me criticize Vik for acting the way he is. 

And I'm surprised about Clapton. I didn't know that. I knew I didn't like that honky for some reason anyway. 

I'll also say that if this were the only offense Vik made, I doubt there would be nearly the dust up there has been. The guy had already proven himself to be a colossal ass, and this just was the icing on the cake. If he had made a sincere apology, or was an otherwise good example of character, I doubt there would be so much discussion on the topic. There are those of us that have a huge problem with his homophobia, those of us that have a huge problem for the way he treats his customers, and those of us that have a huge problem with both. That's enough to get a lot of people talking about it.


----------



## jay moth

I'm totally ok with everyone who has to critisise Vik. My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people. 

In the end, if someone is wishing him all the worst, it is also not my thing. But that won't stop me from questioning someones point of view. I'm not telling You to love him, I'm just asking You why Your replies are like that, and expecting classy answers. This is how discussion works. What I'm poining my finger at now, is lack of class on both ends, Vik being unproffessional, and "rest of the world" being "united against intolerance". 

Ok, to continue a list of homophobes, Faust from Emperor (a band, that gets a lot of love in here) stabbed a homosexual 37 times. He spent over 9 years in prison because of that event. And yet, Emperor is good, and Vik is not. Puzzling.


----------



## flint757

jay moth said:


> That's exactly my point of view. As long, as You're not doing anything illegal, You can hate whoever You want for any reasons. And frankly, most of musicians said something stupid at least once in their lifetimes, especially those from metal genre, and while I don't agree with them, I still like their music. And a quick question for those, who suddenly aren't even going to touch anything Vik-made - have You got anything from Apple? Have You seen their factories? I can understand not buying something, because of ideologic reasons, but Vik did less "evil things" than Apple... Just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> Have You read my posts? A page ago I wrote more or less the same sentence.



Apple is hardly relevant to the discussion. In any case, I don't own any apple products so you aren't making much of a point in regards to myself. One does not nullify the other anyhow. I think we can show an equal amount of effort for both without having to not participate in one or the other. We are not binary thinkers. We can champion more than one cause at a time.

I probably did read your post awhile back. Holloway stated it pretty well. This is just icing on the cake and I personally don't support businesses that are hateful towards people I care about or are actively trying to harm them socially, mentally or physically. I haven't eaten at Chick Fil-A for instance since I found out the owner uses the profits for his charities which lobby against gay people.


----------



## flint757

jay moth said:


> Ok, to continue a list of homophobes, Faust from Emperor (a band, that gets a lot of love in here) stabbed a homosexual 37 times. He spent over 9 years in prison because of that event. And yet, Emperor is good, and Vik is not. Puzzling.



Who in here has stated that?  

Oh that's right, no one.


----------



## jay moth

Well, a lot of people seemed to be excited about Emperor's reunion. Interestingly enough, with Faust, not Trym behind drumset.


----------



## goherpsNderp

as for why it matters to some of us whether or not a guitar luthier/vendor has views that we find offensive and how that ties into doing business with him or not, it's pretty simple:

i want my dollars to benefit people and businesses that respect human rights and equality. if i continue doing business with a company that comes out as being against human rights and equality, then there would be no negative financial impact on them to serve as a repercussion for their aforementioned stance.

it's called voting with your wallet. if suddenly tons of people stopped going to Hobby Lobby and went to Michael's instead, you'd see HL losing money on their financial reports starting around the time they opened their big dumb mouths, and Michael's (who in this analogy would be all for human rights and equality, etc.) would see a sudden increase in sales and financial support from their patrons.

at this point HL would have a choice between fixing their finances by apologizing and giving up their fight against covering healthcare for their female workers, or doubling down and continuing to see their sales nosedive. they'd understand that the way they treat people and employees (with respect and dignity) is actually rewarding. the more people in the world that are rewarded for being good to one another, the less reason anyone has for being prejudice and hateful.

i'd like for their to be less hateful people, and for their to be more respectful compassionate people. so i'm going to vote with my dollars and reward those that are awesome. EDIT: other people will do the same and support companies like Vik or HL because they happen to agree with their stances, and that's completely fine. i'm just trying to explain the rationale of those of us who prioritize spreading love and acceptance over the quality of a purchased good.


----------



## stevexc

jay moth said:


> Well, a lot of people seemed to be excited about Emperor's reunion. Interestingly enough, with Faust, not Trym behind drumset.



A) You could at least try to keep things on topic
B) most people are excited because they're fans of Ihsahn or are unaware of Faust's issues
C) from all accounts I've seen the victim's homosexuality was coincidental (albeit used to Faust's advantage), see Paragraph 2, sentence 2 of the relevant section
D) Emperor never used the murder as part of their publicity or in other band business whereas Vik involved his personal prejudices in his
E) What is the link between "people who agree Vik is a homophobe" and "people who are excited for Emperor's reunion"? It seems like you're imagining a correlation that doesn't necessarily exist.


----------



## Whammy

goherpsNderp said:


> i'd like for their to be less hateful people, and for their to be more respectful compassionate people. so i'm going to vote with my dollars and reward those that are awesome.



This is also my philosophy. But unfortunately in the real world it rarely accomplishes anything 

Vik Guitars facebook page has just as many followers as ever. Recent pictures of guitars (including Misha's guitar) are being commenting on and liked by people who populate this forum.
The list of guitars being built for people by Vik include some well know people on this forum too.

There is a lot of debate here about not tolerating intolerant people which is good. But the general mass (the world that exists outside of SSO) are fickle and at the end of the day will probably succumb to pretty picture of guitars.

I'm not saying to stop debating or to stop voting with your money. In fact I encourage it.
I'm just merely stating would could possibility be the sad truth at the end of the day.


----------



## RevDrucifer

Goddamnit, the word 'you' doesn't require a capital Y unless you're starting a sentence with it. 

The world is growing up and beginning to pull it's collective head out of it's collective ass. This is why people are having such a problem with this. Even if the guy delivered his product in a timely manner, I'd still boycott his guitars based off his words. Doesn't mean I 'hate' the guy or want to see him hurt, but I'm sure as hell not going to give any positive support to someone with such a backwards outlook on the world.


----------



## jay moth

> What is the link between "people who agree Vik is a homophobe" and "people who are excited for Emperor's reunion"? It seems like you're imagining a correlation that doesn't necessarily exist.


Seeing a bigger picture. I have to admit, it's slightly off-topic, but I don't get people, who are so offended by Vik right now, and those who were so against Disma and that other band, where one of the member was accused of being nazi, while not being offended by the fact that Faust killed a guy, who, as You've stated it, he just coincidentally was gay. Double standards?



> Goddamnit, the word 'you' doesn't require a capital Y unless you're starting a sentence with it.


I know. Just a matter of respect. Call me weird, but since names are starting with capital letters, word "You" also should. Not trying to reinvent grammar, just it seems fitting...


----------



## flint757

Whammy said:


> There is a lot of debate here about not tolerating intolerant people which is good. But the general mass (the world that exists outside of SSO) are fickle and at the end of the day will probably succumb to pretty picture of guitars.
> 
> I'm not saying to stop debating or to stop voting with your money. In fact I encourage it.



That's partly why I'm still participating in the conversation. I know for the majority of fickle folk out there that the moment this gets buried people will just forget all about it. If we continue discussing it more people are aware and can make their decision accordingly.

As far as guitar luthiers go, this is why I feel like there needs to be a database of luthiers with their reputations, customer service and product quality written in a concise manner. That way everyone can make an informed decision and the information is readily available in an easy to digest format.


----------



## Explorer

jay moth said:


> I'm totally ok with everyone who has to critisise Vik. My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people.



To point out the obvious, which a Londoner might not be historically aware of:

The Nazis were bigots.

England was intolerant of that bigotry.

Bigotry is intolerance, but intolerance of bigotry is not bigotry.

You might want to do some reading, if you seriously think that Britain and Nazi Germany were ideologically the same.

And if you feel that bigotry and intolerance of bigotry are not the same... why are you saying they are? 

That would be stupid, which is why I'm assuming you don't know about WWII. 

Quite a spirited defense of that kind of thinking, incidentally. 

----

I especially like the "Well, this other person is a dick too, so what?" defense. It would be like arguing that Nazis had death camps, the Russians had gulags, and so the Poles and their allies should have no complaints. 

No one should be that clueless. 

Again, sorry to make historic references which you aren't aware of.


----------



## Hollowway

jay moth said:


> Seeing a bigger picture. I have to admit, it's slightly off-topic, but I don't get people, who are so offended by Vik right now, and those who were so against Disma and that other band, where one of the member was accused of being nazi, while not being offended by the fact that Faust killed a guy, who, as You've stated it, he just coincidentally was gay. Double standards?



Who are you referring to? I'm not aware of anyone on here that is a fan of Faust and against Vik. If you can point out who you are talking about, then we can ask them why they have the double standard. Otherwise you can't say there's a double standard between group A, who believes one thing, and group B, who believes another, if there are no shared members. It could also be straw-man, but I don't think that's what you're going for.

And, for the record, I stopped talking about my feelings about Vik being a jerk several pages ago. The last bunch of posts are me responding to people telling me that I shouldn't care about it, or that my caring won't help, etc. For Pete's sake, if I come in and start railing on Lucas Mann's (Rings of Saturn) guitar playthough shenanigans no one cares, but I call out Vik for being a jerk and people like you start in with, "hey man, stop talking about it. Talking about it won't help. If you dislike him then you're not a tolerant Christian."


----------



## spawnofthesith

What really sucks is that it's looking like Vik ' s business probably isn't going to be all that damaged by this. But when people get excessively butthurt over a mildly tasteless (but accurate) comment about Jim Marshall and Emperor cabs is all but defunct now.

Human beings are ....ing morons.


----------



## UnderTheSign

jay moth said:


> My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people.


Disliking someone for a conscious choice they made vs disliking people based on the way they were born.

See, that's where you're wrong.


----------



## BlackMastodon

spawnofthesith said:


> What really sucks is that it's looking like Vik ' s business probably isn't going to be all that damaged by this. But when people get excessively butthurt over a mildly tasteless (but accurate) comment about Jim Marshall and Emperor cabs is all but defunct now.
> 
> Human beings are ....ing morons.


I wouldn't say that. Do a Google search of 'Vik Guitars' and the front page has all of the articles pointing out his homophobia. If it stays that way then there's a good chance that people won't want to order in the future. This isn't going to die with a bang, it'll take time for people to stop putting in orders, if not because of this then because of all of his other shit-tastic business practices.

Also,people really need to f**k off with this "being intolerant of him is the same as him being intolerant as gays" nonsense. That's complete and utter bullshit and if you have more than 7 brain cells you should be able to see that.


----------



## GunpointMetal

If you guys stop, he'll eventually talk himself out of whatever asinine double standard argument he's pushing here....

If you openly dislike gay people, you can sure do that. I'm not gonna buy your stuff, and if anyone asks me about it I'll say "Don't buy stuff from that bigot asshole."

Yes, I feel having the opinion that there is anything wrong with another person for race, sexual preference, or gender makes the person with the opinion AN ASSHOLE.


----------



## Zalbu

Hating somebody for something they can change is not as bad as hating somebody for something they can't change. Seriously, a 12 year old can figure that out.


----------



## ramses

I'm wondering what will "Round 4" be. This one has provided a lot of entertainment during my morning coffee.


----------



## Whammy

Why are so many pages devoted to vague descriptions of intolerance?

Can we try and clear this up and move on with the thread?

Quote from Wiki
*"Paradox of tolerance*
The *tolerance paradox* arises from a problem that a tolerant person might be antagonistic toward _intolerance_, hence intolerant of it. The tolerant individual would then be by definition intolerant of intolerance."

How a tolerant person chooses to deal with intolerance will be different for everyone. Some will prefer to only act when the intolerance directly threatens their or other peoples liberties.
Others will act as soon as intolerance opens it's mouth.

By definition if a tolerant person becomes antagonistic towards a intolerance person, then they are also intolerant.
However this is by definition only.
In real life things are more complicated.

Like any paradox it is open to deep philosophical discussion. Something I don't see happening in this thread


----------



## ElRay

s4tch said:


> Same here, as I don't listen to Lostprophets anymore. Too bad, I really enjoyed Liberation Transmission.



And I don't buy, read, shop at, etc. Orson Scott Card, Chick-Fil-A, Hobby Lobby or Lowes any more.


----------



## ElRay

jay moth said:


> I'm totally ok with everyone who has to critisise Vik. My point is, hate towards him is exactly the same, as his hate towards gay people.



Are you truly that stupid? Intolerance of intolerance, bigotry, hatred, lies, etc. etc. is not the same as the original intolerance, bigotry, hatred, lies, etc.

You still don't get it. Just as Vik is free to spew his nonsense/lies, others are free to point out Vik's lies, bigotry, hatred, etc.. To claim otherwise is being hypocritical and stupid.


----------



## Explorer

Since Orson Scott Card came up...

The problem is that people are equating intolerance (a very broad word) with bigotry (a much narrower word).

*All bigotry is intolerance, but not all intolerance is bigotry.* Captain America fought the Nazis, but you wouldn't call him a bigot. (Well, unless you're an idiot, and I know we've seen a few of those in this discussion. *laugh*)

All ducks are birds, but not all birds are ducks. *Insisting that they are the same only proves one to be either an idiot... or someone who is deliberately lying in a sneaky way. *


----------



## Kwert

It seems the key thing people are doing is assuming that tolerance is equivalent to pacifism. Two very different things.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Kwert said:


> It seems the key thing people are doing is assuming that tolerance is equivalent to pacifism. Two very different things.


Pacifism means to oppose war and violence when resolving a conflict, there is no war going on here. Just the masses speaking their minds and voicing their disgust at vik's comments. But in this case being tolerant of his views would be almost the same as taking a passive approach. Now take what I just said in my last sentence and apply it to say a person with considerate power saying "all blacks are subhuman" or something to that effect and the line between the two is blurred.


----------



## Kwert

JoshuaVonFlash said:


> Pacifism means to oppose war and violence when resolving a conflict, there is no war going on here. Just the masses speaking their minds and voicing their disgust at vik's comments. But in this case being tolerant of his views would be almost the same as taking a passive approach. Now take what I just said in my last sentence and apply it to say a person with considerate power saying "all blacks are subhuman" or something to that effect and the line between the two is blurred.




I suppose I should clarify. What I mean is that being an advocate for tolerance does not mean you have to be accepting of other intolerant views, or passively accept that other people hold these views.


----------



## Explorer

Wait... when was someone exhorting others to violence in this topic, or being upset when violence and physical force weren't employed?

In looking at this topic, here's what I keep seeing crop up as assumptions:

Intolerance of bigotry is bigotry.

Vik has a right to speak his mind, but you all should not speak your minds. 

Vik has the right to regard some of you, your friends and/or your family members as less than people, but you don't have the right to question patronizing him. 

If only you knew how bigotry, slavery, and other things are normal in other parts of the world, even if those subject to them don't agree with such treatment, then you'd be okay with those things happening in your part of the world. 

----

Best of all, typically those who see Vik's bigotry and his attempts at extortion to silence criticism as bad things have read this topic from the beginning, and so they notice those who arrive every page or so and who make the above assumptions. Those who come in like that don't realize that they're fitting a particular trend, but everyone else sees it immediately.



Kwert said:


> I suppose I should clarify. What I mean is that being an advocate for tolerance does not mean you have to be accepting of other intolerant views, or passively accept that other people hold these views.



Reductio ad absurdum: 

Being an advocate for tolerance of slavery doesn't mean you have to be accepting of slavery. 

Being an advocate for tolerance of slavery doesn't mean that you passively accept that others engage in slavery. 

Those don't seem true. You might be wrong.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Kwert said:


> I suppose I should clarify. What I mean is that being an advocate for tolerance does not mean you have to be accepting of other intolerant views, or passively accept that other people hold these views.


Ah, I took that the wrong way.


----------



## GunpointMetal

33 pages of figuring out what kind of piece of shit this guy is and whether or not we have a right to say anything about....yay the internet.

If you REALLY think that being "intolerant of intolerance" is the same thing as being intolerant in the first place, you're probably a ....ing moron, or you just like talking shit on the internet to get people going.


----------



## JoshuaVonFlash

Wrong thread.


----------



## InHiding

Not commenting on the matter, but here's some recent news and some background to help understand the society this guy is coming from:

Belarus Is Planning To Bring Back Serfdom - Business Insider


----------



## drmosh

InHiding said:


> Not commenting on the matter, but here's some recent news and some background to help understand the society this guy is coming from:
> 
> Belarus Is Planning To Bring Back Serfdom - Business Insider



yeah, but everyone knows Lukachenko is ....ed in the head


----------



## Explorer

I had a discussion today with someone regarding mending fences, and being able to say that one was wrong.

That led to me thinking about this topic, so I moseyed on over to the site.

It's a little sad that the last non-owner post seems to be from May 30th, and the one before that on March 15th. It's like a ghost town. 

I think it's a little forlorn, but if one looked at it from another angle, one might think it's a matter of sticking to one's principles, no matter what the cost. Holding oneself to be superior by an accident of birth isn't a personal principle for me, but it is definitely something which folks might cling to. 

Either that, or it's just hard to admit that one is/was wrong. 

Years ago, on a forgotten show called "All in the Family," Archie explained to Meathead how you father is never wrong, and how he beats you when you deserve it and teaches you what is right and wrong. It was a very impassioned speech in defense of where Archie had learned his attitudes. And I've been thinking about it, that prejudices are not something which children come to naturally.

Remember that Cheerios commercial that upset a lot of Americans? Here's how kids think about stuff like that before others try to poison those open minds...



These kids give me hope that as the bigots choose to build walls, their kids might still be able to escape those barriers.


----------



## TheOddGoat

ramses said:


> I'm wondering what will "Round 4" be. This one has provided a lot of entertainment during my morning coffee.



I'm calling Vik getting caught in an... Ironic situation... And losing the people who support him because of his comments.


----------

