# Scammed Through A Paypal Chargeback



## zephyrkillz

Incident summary: Sold a caparison guitar in august, transaction via paypal gift. Shipped guitar UPS with tracking number. Buyer signed for package, closed deal and both parties are happy. On oct 11 I get a paypal chargeback notification for the guitar. I have the UPS tracking number, address, delivery confirmation, names and phone numbers. Paypal is currently disputing claim with the buyers credit card company. 

Incident In Detail: 

Back in August I sold my caparison dellinger hgs: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/guitars-sale-trade-wanted/245305-caparison-dellinger-hgs.html

Caparison092 bought the guitar for $1200.00, sent payment via paypal gift.






I shipped the guitar, (have the tracking number at moderators request), guitar arrives, buyer signed for it and everything was well. On October 11th I get a chargeback for the $1200 from the buyers paypal, "the payment was not authorized".




I first texted the buyer asking about the charge back, his response was "nah man i havent had a paypal account in months. My old one got hacked". Keep in mind that this transaction happened only a month ago, not a matter of months. Inconsistent.





I call paypal immediately, the agent asks for a tracking number, I gave her the tracking #, everything checks out and there is a delivery confirmation and signature. (Again, I have the tracking number if a moderator would like to look over it). The agent lifts the hold on the funds and they are credited back to my account. The agent tells me to watch for emails about the dispute and that based on cases she has seen like this, I will be fine since there is a tracking number. Buyer tells me through text that he'll call paypal and have them reverse the chargeback. Chargeback was never reversed, buyer claims paypal said they would reverse. (see pictures below of all text conversations). 

Yesterday, october 30th, I got an email from paypal saying that the chargeback has been settled and my paypal balance is -$1220, the chargeback went through because by law paypal has to refund the credit card company and since it was a gift, its not protected by paypal. However, paypal is still disputing the claim with the credit card company, paypal DOES have the tracking number and delivery confirmation. 

Once again I contacted the buyer, he said he's on vacation and wont be able to handle it until nov 12th. He's also since moved accross the country, sold the guitar almost immediately after I sold it to him, (I have no screenshots to prove this since I cannot view his facebook page but he said in the texts he sold it to someone named "Blair"), and blocked me from his facebook account as of yesterday, he says its because his fiance left him and he doesnt want girl drama on facebook. I find all of this to be extremely odd, especially the fact that he said he cant handle the situation until he gets back. He couldnt make one phone call to paypal? He then said that he would call and "get a ticket # asap", he never sent me a ticket #. 

As of right now paypal told me it could take up to 75 days for the dispute to be fully settled and they are trying their best to get my money back. The way the situation stands, my guitar has basically been stolen. I have evidence of payment, ups tracking number, addresses, phone number and names. I strongly feel that the buyer has taken advantage of the chargeback option through paypal to scam me. 

Here are all of the texts from the buyer, I can provide his name and phone number at a moderators request to verify.





Has anyone here ever dealt with chargebacks before? Has anyone recently sold or traded with "caparison092" and have the same chargeback problem? He claimed that 10 people were asking him to contact paypal about chargebacks. 

Thanks for your help in advance,

-Alec Larson


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## Tyler

The guy has a nice slew of subscribers on youtube, try contacting him through there and see if you get any response. Really douche move on his part and I hope everything works out.


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## MaxOfMetal

How many issues like this are going to happen before folks just eat the extremely small Paypal fee?  

How much research did you do on this guy? Five seconds of searching and I can see he has ZERO iTrader feedback, only 2 transactions on eBay in the last year, and no listed public contact info. That's Red Flag City if you wanted to use Paypal gift. 

Let us know how this goes, but there's really nothing we [Mods] can do here. I guess if he does wind up screwing you (though, technically YOU screwed you) we can ban him, but we're not cops, we can't get you what you're out, hence why you really need to protect yourself in these situations. 

Sorry if what I'm saying is harsh.


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## djpharoah

^+1
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/ge...my-guide-safe-consistent-selling-trading.html


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## zephyrkillz

MaxOfMetal said:


> How many issues like this are going to happen before folks just eat the extremely small Paypal fee?
> 
> How much research did you do on this guy? Five seconds of searching and I can see he has ZERO iTrader feedback, only 2 transactions on eBay in the last year, and no listed public contact info. That's Red Flag City if you wanted to use Paypal gift.
> 
> Let us know how this goes, but there's really nothing we [Mods] can do here. I guess if he does wind up screwing you (though, technically YOU screwed you) we can ban him, but we're not cops, we can't get you what you're out, hence why you really need to protect yourself in these situations.
> 
> Sorry if what I'm saying is harsh.



Your right, an expensive lesson. I believe paypal will get it sorted with the credit card company, after all my case is just. I just wanted to warn other members.


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## toiletstand

Hope you can get this sorted. But i always go out of my way to pay for items as goods. best of luck dude!


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## thrsher

isnt this backwards? i thought people sending money as gift cannot file a claim? that they are the ones loosing the protect.


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## MaxOfMetal

thrsher said:


> isnt this backwards? i thought people sending money as gift cannot file a claim? that they are the ones loosing the protect.



If the account connected via credit card, you can still charge back through the bank that issued the card. PayPal didn't do a charge back, the credit card company did, and PayPal is passing that onto the OP.


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## Jonathan20022

This is pretty much why I rarely buy via Paypal gift unless it's a very small purchase, it's a small fee like $50 out of like $2000. But apparently now you can completely override this if you bought via a credit card, the credit card companies and Paypal should be in agreement in regards to "Gifting" money to someone else.

Everything he's saying sounds really sketchy and it looks like he's avoiding you in all honesty. I sincerely hope you get this sorted and get your money back, I'll be wary of things like this in the future.

If Paypal grants him the money, I will seriously reconsider using Paypal depending on the outcome of this situation.


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## ElRay

zephyrkillz said:


> ... via paypal gift ...


Hence my suggestion to immediately delete any FS thread that says "PayPal Gift Only". If the buyer and seller want to negotiate that later, fine, but it shouldn't be a requirement right off the bat.

I notice there's still no iTrader entry here for the sale. How do people expect the system to work if it isn't used?

Ray


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## flexkill

I refuse to use PayPal....EVER. I use and have always used Postal Money Orders. PayPal can eat my ass after a deal I had go terribly bad years ago. People always tell me that it has changed and PayPal is way better now....yet I constantly see crap Like this. USPMO leaves both parties protected. I have had people to refuse to deal with me because of my refusal to use PayPal.....and we just didn't do business.

OP I hope you get it all straight man.


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## Chuck

^ not PayPal's fault lol


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## leonardo7

First and foremost, the buyer is a lying sack of shit! Dont believe anything that he says about his account being hacked, moving, girl stuff, facebook, that he will call paypal, that hes on vacation, that he sold the guitar to a guy named Blair. Every single thing he has told you is BS from what I can tell. Report the guitar stolen with his local police department. Tell him that he can simply send the guitar back and you wont press charges. He hasnt moved across the country. All of the stuff that he told you is like the obvious stuff that a thief says in a situation like this. An understanding of psychology will point to everything he has told you to be classic lies that someone would say in this situation. He didnt move and hes not on vacation. He probably still has the guitar too.

Where did you ship to? File a stolen guitar report with the local PD and let Paypal know that you have done that. Contact the company that delivered it. Please tell me that you required signature by him and only him. He would have had to show ID to get the package and will instantly lose the dispute.


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## flexkill

Chuck said:


> ^ not PayPal's fault lol


PayPal= Problems in my book...that was my point....


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## zephyrkillz

Thanks for the support guys. A couple major things should raise a red flag during paypals investigation/dispute with the credit card company:

#1. Why did the buyer take so long to file a chargeback for an unauthorized payment? It wouldnt take a month and a half to notice an unauthorized $1200 payment, if it really was unauthorized then why wasnt it filed much much earlier? For example, a major reason there would be an unauthorized payment is if a credit card was stolen, it wouldnt take months to report a stolen credit card. It would have been almost immediately reported stolen and the chargeback would have occurred much earlier, even hours after the transaction. 

#2. There is a UPS tracking number, delivery confirmation of the item delivered to the paypal users home address with signature. 




Chuck said:


> ^ not PayPal's fault lol


Ok, then it will be paypals fault if a competing online money transfer company comes along, offers better service to its users and the market forgets about paypal completely. Free market prevails. 

As a seller and paypal customer, I have sound evidence of a shipped item insured for $1200, delivery confirmation to the other paypal user after a payment was received. It would be utterly awful business practice by paypal to not protect me.

I'll keep you guys updated on this situation of course. It will be very disturbing if this goes horribly wrong for me, what would be the safest way to sell through paypal if this kind of loophole exists? A chargeback could be filed regardless of the payment being gifted or for commercial purposes. I just need to clarify if paypal protection would cover chargebacks from a credit card company if the payment was commercial and the seller paid the fee.


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## zephyrkillz

leonardo7 said:


> First and foremost, the buyer is a lying sack of shit! Dont believe anything that he says about his account being hacked, moving, girl stuff, facebook, that he will call paypal, that hes on vacation, that he sold the guitar to a guy named Blair. Every single thing he has told you is BS from what I can tell. Report the guitar stolen with his local police department. Tell him that he can simply send the guitar back and you wont press charges. He hasnt moved across the country. All of the stuff that he told you is like the obvious stuff that a thief says in a situation like this. An understanding of psychology will point to everything he has told you to be classic lies that someone would say in this situation. He didnt move and hes not on vacation. He probably still has the guitar too.
> 
> Where did you ship to? File a stolen guitar report with the local PD and let Paypal know that you have done that. Contact the company that delivered it. Please tell me that you required signature by him and only him. He would have had to show ID to get the package and will instantly lose the dispute.



Good points. Its funny that as soon as I told him that I will be taking him to small claims court he announces that he has a "job as a cop" and "his dad is a lawyer", obvious bullshit. 

Absolutely I required a signature, not entirely sure if it required that he show ID but I shipped via UPS and it was shipped to his name/address.


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## straightshreddd

F*ckin' a, man. I feel for you, bud. Reading this scared the living shit out of me. I just had a paypal gift transaction with a member over seas and I did not think this could happen. I have yet to ship the guitar until final payment is received, but I will be taking Leo's advice and requiring ID and signing for delivery. Any other tips for after the transaction has been made? I'm am motherf*cking terrified right now.


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## ihunda

MaxOfMetal said:


> How many issues like this are going to happen before folks just eat the extremely small Paypal fee?
> 
> Sorry if what I'm saying is harsh.



I don't see why this would be paypal's fault?

And doing regular paypal as opposed to gift would not change anything since he did a CC chargeback, actually the scam would have been easier without PP gift, two options for chargeback instead of one, no?



Chuck said:


> ^ not PayPal's fault lol



Exactly, sounds like they are actually helping....


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## Hollowway

I thought if there was a chargeback the CC company would contact the seller to see what their side of the story is? Did anyone contact you? Can you ask PP to give you the contact at the CC company?

And I definitely agree that you should file a polic report. Check to see if there is some sort of fraud occurring with respect to the internet or mailing as well. Many times situations like this have more significant charges from one of those more esoteric laws than just theft.


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## zephyrkillz

Hollowway said:


> I thought if there was a chargeback the CC company would contact the seller to see what their side of the story is? Did anyone contact you? Can you ask PP to give you the contact at the CC company?
> 
> And I definitely agree that you should file a polic report. Check to see if there is some sort of fraud occurring with respect to the internet or mailing as well. Many times situations like this have more significant charges from one of those more esoteric laws than just theft.



The only type of contact I received was an email from paypal notifying me of the chargeback and that I could submit files, (like tracking #) to the dispute. I have not asked paypal to provide me a contact for the CC company, I'm not sure if they would even reveal that information. Good idea, I'll try. As far as a police report, should I wait until the dispute is settled with paypal or start the process of filing now?


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## zephyrkillz

straightshreddd said:


> F*ckin' a, man. I feel for you, bud. Reading this scared the living shit out of me. I just had a paypal gift transaction with a member over seas and I did not think this could happen. I have yet to ship the guitar until final payment is received, but I will be taking Leo's advice and requiring ID and signing for delivery. Any other tips for after the transaction has been made? I'm am motherf*cking terrified right now.



At this point, I'm going to try and talk you out of shipping that guitar. Try selling it on craigslist, even if you have to shave a bit off the selling price. Its just awful because it could be months and out of nowhere surprise you and immediately bring a tornado of stress into your life.

I currently cant sleep and when I can, email notifications jolt me awake because of the dread of getting an email from paypal with bad news. I couldnt even mentally function today at work. At the gas station I started filling up my tank, went in the store to get a drink, came back to the car and started to drive off when i realized the hose was still in the tank, no damage, just an example of how mentally drained I was today. All I can think about is how horrendous and time consuming the process of getting my money or guitar back is going to be. The anxiety unexplainable. I sold the guitar to fund my iphone case startup, I'm in the middle of finding manufactures but with a crippled paypal account I am grounded and my startup development has come to a halt. If your willing to risk going through something like this, then ship the guitar but honestly I'd highly advise to just try and sell it on craigslist locally.


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## straightshreddd

zephyrkillz said:


> At this point, I'm going to try and talk you out of shipping that guitar. Try selling it on craigslist, even if you have to shave a bit off the selling price. Its just awful because it could be months and out of nowhere surprise you and immediately bring a tornado of stress into your life.
> 
> I currently cant sleep and when I can, email notifications jolt me awake because of the dread of getting an email from paypal with bad news. I couldnt even mentally function today at work. At the gas station I started filling up my tank, went in the store to get a drink, came back to the car and started to drive off when i realized the hose was still in the tank, no damage, just an example of how mentally drained I was today. All I can think about is how horrendous and time consuming the process of getting my money or guitar back is going to be. The anxiety unexplainable. I sold the guitar to fund my iphone case startup, I'm in the middle of finding manufactures but with a crippled paypal account I am grounded and my startup development has come to a halt. If your willing to risk going through something like this, then ship the guitar but honestly I'd highly advise to just try and sell it on craigslist locally.



Oh, my f*cking god, dude. This is a goddamn horror film right now. I'm too drunk to even be rational.

Fuuuck. I'm going to talk to Paypal tomorrow and try to figure out the best possible solution. I'm so sorry for the shit you're going through, man. I'd have a beer with you if I could. 

I'm gonna see what they say and if they give me a foolproof option, I'll go with it. Should I hit up the guy and, like, ask him if he'd do some shit like this? Nothing has happened yet, but I'm f*cking scared now, man.


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## MaxOfMetal

ihunda said:


> I don't see why this would be paypal's fault?
> 
> And doing regular paypal as opposed to gift would not change anything since he did a CC chargeback, actually the scam would have been easier without PP gift, two options for chargeback instead of one, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly, sounds like they are actually helping....


 
It's not Paypal's fault, that was my point. It was the OP's, hence me saying sorry. 

Reread what Paypal said. When you use the gift option _both_ parties are covered less. If "regular" Paypal was used the OP would have fraud protection through Paypal, both sides lose that when going for Paypal Gift.


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## ihunda

^ got it, I was reacting cause I actually heard of paypal scams with a regular non gift transaction where the buyer simply declare that the transaction was unauthorized via paypal web interface and basically the seller is screwed even with the fraud protection as paypal mostly sides with the buyer by default.

I also was screwed with an issue with Prymaxe where I got broken a JP12 and paypal simply admitted that the protection would only have worked if I bought from ebay... go figure as I paid the same fees than if it was an ebay deal and I had to pull an Amex to get my money back.


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## leonardo7

If you can contact his credit card company you might be able to bring about some type of fraudulence on his part. Credit card companies wouldn't have just reversed a charge because he wanted them to. He had to have a reason that qualifies. Id be willing to bet that he lied to them about his reason for the charge back. 

Also, this is why it is sometimes a good idea to just list on ebay and then only ship to verified addresses, or as mentioned, dont ever sell to someone with no iTrader etc. But thats after the fact now.


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## Chuck

Sorry man but when YOU make an agreement to use the gift option you are giving up all protection. It's your fault for not being cautious. 

At least PayPal is helping you at all at this point.


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## ElRay

zephyrkillz said:


> ... As far as a police report, should I wait until the dispute is settled with paypal or start the process of filing now?



I would have filed the instant I received notice of the chargeback.

I don't know what you can do with UPS, but if it was USPS, I'd also file a mail fraud claim.



zephyrkillz said:


> Good points. Its funny that as soon as I told him that I will be taking him to small claims court he announces that he has a "job as a cop" and "his dad is a lawyer", obvious bullshit.



Bullshit or not, it's irrelevant. Police aren't involved until the judgment is served, then in many jurisdictions, they're required to enforce the judgement. And, in small claims court, lawyers cannot be used other than for advice.

Ray


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## Jonathan20022

I don't understand how this is the OP's fault, if the buyer chose to skimp out and save on fees this should all be on him. The OP should feel even more secure knowing that Paypal drops the protection for the buyer in case he is a scammer. The buyer just found a loophole and is taking hin on a ride now.

I've been in a chargeback situation before via eBay. My item was sent out, and it was practically gone now, Paypal refunded the Buyer and also paid me. But the only reason that happened is because I paid for my shipping label through eBay and they could 100% verify that something had happened.


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## MaxOfMetal

Jonathan20022 said:


> I don't understand how this is the OP's fault


 
The OP didn't know this Caparison092 guy from a hole in the wall, and no one else does either apparently. 

I'm not saying to only do transactions with folks you're on a first name basis with, but at least do a little research. The lack of previous online sales is a BIG red flag in my book, same with going with someone who has zero online ties of accountability. 

Plus, the OP could have negotiated the terms of payment. I've had guys try and send me cash via Paypal Gift and I've sent it right back. If they don't have the cash to cover the fees, they don't have the cash for the item, and if I'm that desperate to sell I probably need to evaluate a few things. 

I'm not trying to hog on the OP anymore, and I do feel really bad for them, especially since this deal was through here, a place that I feel somewhat responsible for. I just think if a few more checks were made, this wouldn't have happened. It has little to do with the Paypal situation itself and all to do with going with trusted buyers/sellers. 

I hope this situation can show others that just because someone finally hit 100 posts, has an eBay account [with little usage/traffic], and a Paypal doesn't mean they're on the level. I also hope this persuades others into just eating the fees, or do what I do and have the buyer eat them.


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## gunshow86de

MaxOfMetal said:


> The OP didn't know this Caparison092 guy from a hole in the wall, and no one else does either apparently.
> 
> I'm not saying to only do transactions with folks you're on a first name basis with, but at least do a little research. The lack of previous online sales is a BIG red flag in my book, same with going with someone who has zero online ties of accountability.



While I agree with most of what you're saying, Caparison092 actually has a decent online presence. 

He has previous sales on here, seems like only to Engage (for whatever that is worth ) based on the Caps that I remember Engage selling on here.

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/search.php?searchid=6694383

He has good feedback on eBay, as well as profiles on Caprison forum and a YouTube channel. 

https://www.google.com/#q=Caparison092


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## JoshuaVonFlash

Sorry to hear this dude but, I would've went to the police as soon as this popped up, if you haven't do it now and contact the credit card company. I know your reeling from this but the more proactive you are the quicker you can get your money back or your guitar back ( if he hasn't sold it) I checked his page and was online on Halloween. Good luck with this though.


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## MaxOfMetal

gunshow86de said:


> While I agree with most of what you're saying, Caparison092 actually has a decent online presence.
> 
> He has previous sales on here, seems like only to Engage (for whatever that is worth ) based on the Caps that I remember Engage selling on here.
> 
> http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/search.php?searchid=6694383
> 
> He has good feedback on eBay, as well as profiles on Caprison forum and a YouTube channel.
> 
> https://www.google.com/#q=Caparison092



He has zero iTrader: SevenString.org - View Profile: Caparison092

And hasn't used eBay in almost 12 months, at least for significant purchases.


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## Watty

Wasn't he the guy with the PRS Private stock that he seemed to have commissioned?

Edit: Meaning that he shouldn't be the type to have balked at the $1200...


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## Volteau

Jonathan20022 said:


> I don't understand how this is the OP's fault, if the buyer chose to skimp out and save on fees this should all be on him. The OP should feel even more secure knowing that Paypal drops the protection for the buyer in case he is a scammer. The buyer just found a loophole and is taking hin on a ride now.
> 
> I've been in a chargeback situation before via eBay. My item was sent out, and it was practically gone now, Paypal refunded the Buyer and also paid me. But the only reason that happened is because I paid for my shipping label through eBay and they could 100% verify that something had happened.



'Cause we live in a society so cynical that if you are alone in your house and decide to leave a door open to let the breeze in and some guy decides he wants to walk in, shoot you in the face and steal all of your stuff, it is now YOUR fault and nobody else's for wanting to leave the door open. Yeah, just ignore the other guy's motivations (and existence) and categorically state that "it's his (the victim's) and only his fault". I find this type of "victim blaming" argument to be so f***ed up. Yes, the OP failed to take some of the necessary precautions in his sale, but when you are the seller you feel much more confident (especially since it was PP gift) of any transactions and deals you might make because the other party "makes the first move", meaning they pay first and then you ship. In fact, I take back part of the "failing to take the necessary precautions", for he did require a signature as evidence of delivery. Also, some of you should stop being so dense. PayPal's protection is for the buyer, hence the label Buyer Protection. As Jon already said, the buyer found a loophole through the credit card company, not through paypal.

To the mods: Sorry. I've never written a rant like this on the forums before, but this type of hostile attitude towards a fellow member is disconcerting.


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## Jonathan20022

I'm just going to dump out the funds on my Paypal to my Bank Account from now on the second I get them. If someone decides to do this to me, and Paypal calls me saying that the account is -$xxx I'll just tell them to figure it out themselves because it's their job to protect us a buyer from loopholes like these. If anything, I'd expect them to take the hit from their own pockets rather than mine, at least if I have my money in my bank I have an extra hopefully "helpful" layer of security in my banking.

This is just incredibly unfortunate, the only thing he can do is wait and hope that Paypal and the Credit Card company come to an agreement in his favor.

If it helps man, I was in a situation where a buyer claimed unauthorized use of his account when someone bought a $100 Gift Card I sold for about $70. I was left with the funds removed from my account, but in the end after I provided proof and a feud for about 30 days I received my funds since USPS couldn't recover the gift card. I hope it turns out the same way for you, 1200 is a MUCH larger hit.


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## zephyrkillz

Jonathan20022 said:


> I'm just going to dump out the funds on my Paypal to my Bank Account from now on the second I get them. If someone decides to do this to me, and Paypal calls me saying that the account is -$xxx I'll just tell them to figure it out themselves because it's their job to protect us a buyer from loopholes like these. If anything, I'd expect them to take the hit from their own pockets rather than mine, at least if I have my money in my bank I have an extra hopefully "helpful" layer of security in my banking.
> 
> This is just incredibly unfortunate, the only thing he can do is wait and hope that Paypal and the Credit Card company come to an agreement in his favor.
> 
> If it helps man, I was in a situation where a buyer claimed unauthorized use of his account when someone bought a $100 Gift Card I sold for about $70. I was left with the funds removed from my account, but in the end after I provided proof and a feud for about 30 days I received my funds since USPS couldn't recover the gift card. I hope it turns out the same way for you, 1200 is a MUCH larger hit.



Justice is on my side, I'm not really worried about the money because my evidence is sound and through small claims court I know I can get it back. The guitar is gone, I know he sold it becuase I saw one of his facebook friends post "thanks for the guitar". This post on facebook probably exists somewhere but I cant view his page because he blocked me. I just really hope paypal can be my "pal" here and investigate the situation entirely. I'm 23 years old, that means I have around 60 or so more years to do business online with paypal. If they cant protect me from $1200.00 then they'll be loosing tens of thousands of dollars from doing future business with me.


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## leonardo7

He can go to prison for lying about his reason for the charge back. You cannot just call your credit card company and say "uh yeah, I like wanted to do a charge back". Its not that easy! They always ask you why and you have to attest to your legitimate reasoning. If you get caught lying about why you need to do the charge back then you can serve time for that. There is evidence of him signing for the guitar as well as communication between the two of you. Not only will you win, but he will serve time in prison for essentially committing credit card fraud! Paypal should be able to fix this one for you if your persistent. You can contact the FBI about this too. They take credit card fraud quite seriously.


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## SpaceDock

I think the most important factor here is that the guy had to claim unauthorized access to his account. You have clear evidence that he authorized the payment and that invalidates his claim. I think you would still be out the money even if you used non gift PayPal and someone had stolen his info and bought the guitar illegally. Maybe PayPal backs you up if somene does order from yu with stolen PayPal accounts, idk.


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## leonardo7

Nobody stole his info. The guy is lying about that, and he lied to his credit card company about it too. Someone didnt hack in to his sevenstring.org account and then also hack in to his paypal account, and then also be at his place to sign for the guitar


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## leonardo7

If the guy is claiming that someone else bought the guitar with his hacked account then how can he legally sell the guitar? That would clearly be another crime. This guy has committed so many crimes its not even funny. It means that he knowingly sold stolen property while said property was a part of a federal investigation. Once he claims to his credit card company that his account was hacked it is then a federal investigation. Whether it is actually being investigated at a federal level or not doesn't matter. All "credit charge backs" go in to a category that places it in to a section classified as a federal case.


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## Sephael

zephyrkillz said:


> . I'm 23 years old, that means I have around 60 or so more years to do business online with paypal. If they cant protect me from $1200.00 then they'll be loosing tens of thousands of dollars from doing future business with me.



Except if you use the gift option they are not getting cash from you anyway and thus are not loosing anything.


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## zephyrkillz

leonardo7 said:


> If you can contact his credit card company you might be able to bring about some type of fraudulence on his part. Credit card companies wouldn't have just reversed a charge because he wanted them to. He had to have a reason that qualifies. Id be willing to bet that he lied to them about his reason for the charge back.
> 
> Also, this is why it is sometimes a good idea to just list on ebay and then only ship to verified addresses, or as mentioned, dont ever sell to someone with no iTrader etc. But thats after the fact now.



I'll be contacting paypal to see if they will even give me his credit card company. If not, I'll file a police report in his city and I'll also talk to a lawyer about the next step if all else fails.

I also want to thank you and everyone else for taking the time out of your life to type in this thread and help me out.


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## zephyrkillz

Just got off the phone with paypal, they cannot give me any information on the credit card company. They did say they can provide my contact info to the credit card company though.


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## nothingleft09

Take the information. Contact the credit card company. Submit all of your evidence to them and then file a police report and submit that exact same evidence. If he "has a job as a cop and his dad is a lawyer" you also need to just toss in to him, hey bud... being a cop won't help you when you've been reported to the FBI for credit card fraud and then proceed with those charges as well. Paypal probably isn't going to help in this circumstance and you may very well get shafted and you are probably not going to see that guitar again if he sold it. You REALLY have got to stop dragging your feet here or you are going to lose any chance of recourse you may have left. Call the credit card company asap and submit your evidence and tell them you want to press charges for fraud.


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## tedtan

^ He doesn't have the CC company's contact info to contact them. I do agree that it's probably an wire/mail fraud case, and the OP should contact the FBI (local police probably can't do anything in these cases).


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## nothingleft09

Read that wrong. Thought they said they would give him contact info but not details. I would definitely get right on your other avenues of approach though because you're losing time and cops and shit look at the amount of time that has elapsed since action was taken.


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## Hollowway

What's the status on this? I saw the thread in the FS section. Did he ever pay you what he owed you, or is he still scamming?


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## feraledge

I can say this much, I'll never use paypal gift again for a sale.


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## Hollowway

feraledge said:


> I can say this much, I'll never use paypal gift again for a sale.



Totally! I used to do PP gift and then run it through my CC, figuring that the CC will offer me all the protection I need. It's an Amex, and they've always been awesome about it. But after seeing this, .... that noise! Sadly, there is ALWAYS going to be a way to scam somebody.


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## M3CHK1LLA

leonardo7 said:


> ...Report the guitar stolen with his local police department. Tell him that he can simply send the guitar back and you wont press charges...He probably still has the guitar too.
> 
> Where did you ship to? File a stolen guitar report with the local PD and let Paypal know that you have done that. Contact the company that delivered it. Please tell me that you required signature by him and only him. He would have had to show ID to get the package and will instantly lose the dispute.



^ this

i had a guy who owned a body shop get kicked out of his building and he took a car i was trading him to repair/paint 2 other cars of mine. he finished one of them (rather poorly) but never finished the other.

no one saw it coming and he took stuff from other customers & friends too. he told people he was moving and mentioned 3 different places. of coarse he didnt go to any of those locations and for a few weeks no one could find him. 

he quit answering his phones and eventually had both of them shut off. luckily i had his x-gf's phone number and had her tell him that i was reporting the car stolen...long story short, he returned my car in 2 days later.



edit: halloway...i just realized you bumped a thread from 2013


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## CassDarkwing

WE NEED ANSWERS

what happened brotha? Did you get your money? I hope you did...


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## wespaul

I sold that guy my Ola Frenning Caparison a couple years ago. He seemed like a good dude. Paid by money order and gave me his phone number to keep in touch. Odd that he's started off with this bad deal and then followed it up with a bunch of good ones. 

I'm also curious to know what happened. I see that he's banned now. Won't that make it more difficult to work this out (if that's even an option now)? Granted it's been years, but I've seen stranger things happen in online deals..


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## Hollowway

M3CHK1LLA said:


> edit: halloway...i just realized you bumped a thread from 2013



Yeah I hopped in here because the TS of this thread put a warning in the scammer's most recent FS post. So I was hoping to see whatever happened. Aaaaannnd, I still don't know.


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## ElRay

zephyrkillz said:


> ... If they cant protect me from $1200.00 then they'll be loosing tens of thousands of dollars from doing future business with me.



Do you honestly expect to do over $40k in non-PayPal-Gift business? And that's just the expense of the transaction. It says nothing about the other costs of dealing with the chargeback, any criminal action, etc. In short, your business is not worth it to them.

Now, if the response by others in reaction to what happened to you looks like it will cost them real losses, then they will do something.


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## mcsalty

Hollowway said:


> Yeah I hopped in here because the TS of this thread put a warning in the scammer's most recent FS post. So I was hoping to see whatever happened. Aaaaannnd, I still don't know.



I'm with you haha. I actually feel like the unnecessary bumping (my bad) combined with OP's silence is gonna get this thread locked before we ever find out


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## M3CHK1LLA

i just checked and the op was on here yesterday, so i sent him a message regarding this...hopefully we will find out what happened.


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## feraledge

The lack of resolution on this is very unsatisfying...


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