# Maynard James Keenan accused of underage rape



## Jonathan20022 (Jun 26, 2018)

https://twitter.com/IWas17HeWas36/status/1010337544637067264

Strange to imagine, since he was apparently so openly living up the groupie lifestyle. But who knows at this point, I'm more interested in what comes of this and what other information comes to light. I see both sides of the coin, where it's hard for the victims to come out with their story, but there's also a big problem in how easy it is to make the accusation with what seems like very little accountability.

There needs to be some organization or method where victims of rape can anonymously tell their story but still have their name attached to their report internally. So that if a person really did go through that experience, their story can be revealed to the public without their identity attached if they want it to. But at the same time, the police or whatever organization is handling their story can still investigate with the person who came in and filed the report and retold their experience. This way victims who truthfully want to accuse someone have the power to while minimizing the public backlash from trolls and assholes online. But if the situation turns out to be a fabrication they can be held accountable if it's proven that what they said was made up.


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## BusinessMan (Jun 26, 2018)

Quick let's start condemning him for something that allegedly happened 18 years ago before the keyboard lawyers show up  but seriously if he did fcuk him and I guess y'all gotta wait even longer for that album huh?


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 26, 2018)

I'm with you on that, if he did it then screw him. Not really a Tool fan in the first place, I'm more concerned with how this is going to be handled because if it's not true then it makes it harder for real victims to be taken seriously.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 26, 2018)

I always think it's interesting how these victims don't feel the need to comment on their abuse for years. Most sexual assault victims that come into the ER where I work are usually there because it literally JUST happened to them (or it happened a few hours earlier), they took the initiative to get swabbed/tested so that way there's actual evidence of the attack. Without that, the police have nothing to go on but hearsay. Women that wait 18 years to come forward aren't helping themselves, or helping other victims from suffering the same fate. I'm always suspect of women that didn't seek help for a relatively traumatic event. 
I won't bother commenting any more on the allegation since there's only hearsay at this point.


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## TedEH (Jun 26, 2018)

I see this thread going exactly the same way every other "musician accused of sexual misconduct" thread has gone. Lots of speculation. Lots of polarized jumping to conclusions. Lots of f*ck this guy, lots of f*ck false accusers, etc etc. Lots of arguing about whether or not you can talk about or speculate about something that we don't have enough information about.

I don't think there's anything to add to the discussion that hasn't already been said about another case.


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## auxioluck (Jun 26, 2018)

I find it shameful that we have reached a point in society where we are so predictable, and have been fed the same shit for so long, that everyone already knows the general tone of an article and the impending comments without having to even read the article. Feels like everything is on a fucking loop. 

Maybe we'll get some clickbait headlines in another year about Lemmy posthumously being accused of shoplifting.


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## lurè (Jun 26, 2018)

A girl tweets anonymously that 18 years she's been raped by an artist.

I think that Maynard could probably defend himself by just saying "No".


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

Having sex with underage girls is not uncommon in lots of “Pagan” circles, and since APC falls into the grounding music scene, it wouldn’t shock me. Jerry Garcia, Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger are all actual, full blown rapists and have gotten the celebrity “pass” for decades. People thought Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman were decent human beings until the truth came out. In this case, who knows yet. Some of our heroes have done shit you wouldn’t believe....


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## Vyn (Jun 26, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I always think it's interesting how these victims don't feel the need to comment on their abuse for years. Most sexual assault victims that come into the ER where I work are usually there because it literally JUST happened to them (or it happened a few hours earlier), they took the initiative to get swabbed/tested so that way there's actual evidence of the attack. Without that, the police have nothing to go on but hearsay. Women that wait 18 years to come forward aren't helping themselves, or helping other victims from suffering the same fate. I'm always suspect of women that didn't seek help for a relatively traumatic event.
> I won't bother commenting any more on the allegation since there's only hearsay at this point.



An important thing to keep in mind that even just 18 years ago, if you went to the police with allegations of rape you'd have a hard time getting anyone to believe your story. In addition, people felt completely powerless to do anything about it. It's only in the last few years that the attitude has changed to "It's okay to get help and help is actually available."


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## musicaldeath (Jun 26, 2018)

It will be interesting to see the hardcore Tool fans come out of the woodwork on this one. They are always good for a laugh/cringe.

And by "hardcore Tool" fan I am referring to the ones that need to convince you there is some mystical mathematical formula in everyone of their songs that unlocks the keys to the universe. Or something.


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## Cheap (Jun 26, 2018)

I would love for this to stay as just an unanswered accusation because, like most things on twitter, I think it's already past the point of being helpful for the original poster or any other victims of rape/abuse in the music industry. Though, as a fan of all of his projects since before I was in high school it's kind of a bummer that I don't hesitate to believe he'd be capable of something like this. 

Am I a bad person for thinking that this doesn't take away what the music has done for me outside of that action though? I'd like to think not, but I feel like that mindset is off limits whenever any accusations come out and fans start attacking other fans for not setting the accused on fire with their keyboards too. It's an interesting discussion for sure


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## musicaldeath (Jun 26, 2018)

I was in that boat with Decapitated's new album and then the accusations came down last year. Felt wrong to want to listen to the album so I never did. Still haven't even though they have been cleared... it definitely is a weird feeling.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 26, 2018)

I brought up that notion in a thread recently about another controversy. Separating the art from the artist is a very personal choice that shouldn't define the consumer. Growing up as a Protestant Christian I have made several friends who enjoy metal and draw their own lines, some not listening to Black Metal, others more analytical and don't listen to music with even notions of Satanic lyrics or other topics.

Similarly, I wouldn't say someone who listens to a band and their feelings on the music are or aren't affected shouldn't define the listener. But that's just my 2 cents, this is also a bit different since the situation is at the unverified accusation stage and not the convicted punished stage.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

Funny coincidence...I was at Primus and Mastodon LAST NIGHT at McMenamins Edgefield hanging out with a security buddy...there were 3 girls within 2 hours who had been sexually assaulted, one by forced kissing, another was a guy who kept grabbing the same girl, and a guy who shoved his hands down a girls pants (who got beat up pretty bad, rightfully)...I honestly think even with awareness,certain groups of guys are acting as if it’s a “challenge” to see how far they can go -philanthropy starts with the lowest forms of society and works its way up...so that being said, despite the “disgust” over inappropriate behavior, philanthropists always have a certain political duty to defend the rapist or molester...more of that “it’s a disease -I have a problem” shit...this new rehabilitation style society is literally breeding this behavior and rape sentences are usually pretty light compared to say, a kidnapping charge. This kind of crap happened a lot less when Dad’s and brothers handled this instead of social workers looking to make a career out of the counseling/rehabilitation end. Some social workers actually RECOMMEND rape victims get counseling WITH their rapists...I’m getting out there maybe, but I’d like to see a harder stand on this behavior when it pans out true...


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## jwade (Jun 26, 2018)

I’m more inclined to believe this over an anonymous twitter claim. 

http://exclaim.ca/music/article/maynard_james_keenan_accused_of_raping_a_fan_in_2000


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Jun 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Having sex with underage girls is not uncommon in lots of “Pagan” circles, and since APC falls into the grounding music scene, it wouldn’t shock me. Jerry Garcia, Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger are all actual, full blown rapists and have gotten the celebrity “pass” for decades. People thought Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman were decent human beings until the truth came out. In this case, who knows yet. Some of our heroes have done shit you wouldn’t believe....



LOL



Vyn said:


> An important thing to keep in mind that even just 18 years ago, if you went to the police with allegations of rape you'd have a hard time getting anyone to believe your story. In addition, people felt completely powerless to do anything about it. It's only in the last few years that the attitude has changed to "It's okay to get help and help is actually available."


This is complete bullshit haha. Yeah ok. You guys are literally pulling shit out of your ass now.


Did you guys even read the article? I have a very hard time believing any of that is true. It sounds like a fictional story.

So let me get this straight. Maynard traveled the world with a water bottle. Whatever underage girl he tossed the bottle to (in a crowd of thousands) will be approached by a butch lady sexual gate keeper, (never to bee seen again) and brought to a secluded area with a picnic table. 

Maynard waiting and staring patiently. With no security, no bandmates, nobody around.

Then he invites them to go watch a movie in the bus while paralyzing the girls motions by removing his pants before he rapes them.

HAHA that is seriously a crock of shit. Just like the Decap situation. Complete nonsense. People are just plain dumb these days.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Jun 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Having sex with underage girls is not uncommon in lots of “Pagan” circles, and since APC falls into the grounding music scene, it wouldn’t shock me. Jerry Garcia, Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger are all actual, full blown rapists and have gotten the celebrity “pass” for decades. People thought Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman were decent human beings until the truth came out. In this case, who knows yet. Some of our heroes have done shit you wouldn’t believe....



Just wanted to point out that one is a convicted serial rapist and the other guy has allegations from a single person (unless something else has come out since). 

Big difference, certainly too big to use them comparitavely.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 26, 2018)

They can call it a disease all they want, but if you do something like that you still deserved to be punished and serve your time  Referencing @NateFalcon, what happened to those guys besides just getting beaten up?

There's very few cases where I sympathize where defendants make the plea of being under the influence or insanity.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Jun 26, 2018)

jwade said:


> I’m more inclined to believe this over an anonymous twitter claim.
> 
> http://exclaim.ca/music/article/maynard_james_keenan_accused_of_raping_a_fan_in_2000


What?

Isn't...That...



The anonymous twitter claim?


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 26, 2018)

jwade said:


> I’m more inclined to believe this over an anonymous twitter claim.
> 
> http://exclaim.ca/music/article/maynard_james_keenan_accused_of_raping_a_fan_in_2000



These are the exact same stories


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> Just wanted to point out that one is a convicted serial rapist and the other guy has allegations from a single person (unless something else has come out since).
> 
> Big difference, certainly too big to use them comparitavely.


I agree, I did say it’s unknown...I’m just speaking on the celebrity pass mantra


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Jun 26, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> These are the exact same stories


I now see, i think he may be speaking about the Reddit stuff at the bottom.

And yeah I agree, the guy who is a filmer's side of things with APC is much more believable than that unbelievable twitter story.


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## jwade (Jun 26, 2018)

Yeah, I knew there would be a few knee jerk reaction posts before people even read the entire page. No sweat dudes. 

But really, Maynard is one of the most intelligent people in the entire music business. The anonymous twitter posts seem like creepy rape-fantasy fiction done in an attempt for attention, or to hurt Maynard/Tool. A lot of severely unstable people are creepily obsessed with him and the band, and he has pissed off a lot of people first by putting out another APC album, and then being his usual outspoken self in interviews. 

I mean...if the story is true, that sucks. But it seems VERY improbable. It honestly just sounds like a very immature person writing awful rape-fantasy fiction.


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## Vyn (Jun 26, 2018)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> This is complete bullshit haha. Yeah ok. You guys are literally pulling shit out of your ass now.


FWIW I'm not actually speculating on whether or not the accusations against Keenan are true or false, that's not my job. I was responding to @KnightBrolaire with a note on why in cases it can be a significant amount of time between rape happening and it being reported/made public. 

It's well known and documented that instances of rape reported to police have historically on average not progressed past that first interview, and of those that have, less are likely to go to trial and even less are likely to have a conviction. The process itself has been labelled by rape victims themselves as torturous and effectively re-living the whole incident over again. Now, given that there's statistically a high likelihood of no outcome AND you're going to be re-living one of the worst experiences of your life it's completely understandable why people don't report it in the first place. All of this is current - 18-20 years ago when this incident was alleged to have happened the results were even worse. There's plenty of stories from victims who have basically had the first report, whether it be a friend or an officer of the law just laugh at them.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 26, 2018)

If I wrote an article on this, it'd be headlined, "Tool Singer gives underage girl his pocket wrench."



NateFalcon said:


> Having sex with underage girls is not uncommon in lots of “Pagan” circles, and since APC falls into the grounding music scene, it wouldn’t shock me. Jerry Garcia, Steven Tyler, Mick Jagger are all actual, full blown rapists and have gotten the celebrity “pass” for decades. People thought Bill Cosby and Morgan Freeman were decent human beings until the truth came out. In this case, who knows yet. Some of our heroes have done shit you wouldn’t believe....


What about Bowie and Page?


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 26, 2018)

jwade said:


> Yeah, I knew there would be a few knee jerk reaction posts before people even read the entire page. No sweat dudes.
> 
> But really, Maynard is one of the most intelligent people in the entire music business. The anonymous twitter posts seem like creepy rape-fantasy fiction done in an attempt for attention, or to hurt Maynard/Tool. A lot of severely unstable people are creepily obsessed with him and the band, and he has pissed off a lot of people first by putting out another APC album, and then being his usual outspoken self in interviews.
> 
> I mean...if the story is true, that sucks. But it seems VERY improbable. It honestly just sounds like a very immature person writing awful rape-fantasy fiction.


Interesting way to say "she's lying."


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> They can call it a disease all they want, but if you do something like that you still deserved to be punished and serve your time  Referencing @NateFalcon, what happened to those guys besides just getting beaten up?
> 
> There's very few cases where I sympathize where defendants make the plea of being under the influence or insanity.


The “grabber” got physically thrown off the property, the other two guys got physically handed off to the Sheriff (there were lots there) and imagine they got charged with something, the “pants” guy got beat up by 2-3 other guys who thankfully were close enough to see what happened and stop it...in Portland of all places...


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

PS...do we have to throw the word ‘fantasy’ into it?


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## jwade (Jun 26, 2018)

It’s a thing, homie. Seriously.


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## toolsound (Jun 26, 2018)

Even if this story is false, it's clear that this situation happens all the time and affects a variety of people.

I don't mean to legitimize this behavior, but I don't know why people rarely ever discuss the following: The drive to be sexual, especially for a man, is an incredibly powerful, biological impulse. There are countless men out there who avoid these situations not because they have superior morals or impulse control, but simply because they never have the right opportunity to take advantage of a similar situation, and so it never becomes a problem for them. And those same men might even think that this is only a problem that affects other men who are different from them.

These stories will continue on and on forever for this reason. We will never see an end to unwanted sexual conduct. But we will sure keep talking about it to death.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 26, 2018)

toolsound said:


> I don't mean to legitimize this behavior, but I don't know why people rarely ever discuss the following: The drive to be sexual, especially for a man, is an incredibly powerful, biological impulse.


Eh, sorry, but Gene Simmons interviews... This is almost the bulk of what he talks about. 



toolsound said:


> There are countless men out there who avoid these situations not because they have superior morals or impulse control, but simply because they never have the right opportunity to take advantage of a similar situation, and so it never becomes a problem for them. And those same men might even think that this is only a problem that affects other men who are different from them.


There are some of these men, possibly the socially awkward type, who when they do get into these sorts of situations, do not really know how to handle themselves. For these folks, it isn't a matter of staying out of the situations as you pointed out, it's a matter of it rarely presenting itself, and when it does, the guy doesn't know how to go from the typical small talk or so on that friends do to, "Hey, wanna fool around?"


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

toolsound said:


> Even if this story is false, it's clear that this situation happens all the time and affects a variety of people.
> 
> I don't mean to legitimize this behavior, but I don't know why people rarely ever discuss the following: The drive to be sexual, especially for a man, is an incredibly powerful, biological impulse. There are countless men out there who avoid these situations not because they have superior morals or impulse control, but simply because they never have the right opportunity to take advantage of a similar situation, and so it never becomes a problem for them. And those same men might even think that this is only a problem that affects other men who are different from them.
> 
> These stories will continue on and on forever for this reason. We will never see an end to unwanted sexual conduct. But we will sure keep talking about it to death.


...we only just talk about it because laws keep protecting them. Lots of guys have NO PROBLEM controlling themselves...the people with the urge to act on it are what we call “sickos”...


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> ...we only just talk about it because laws keep protecting them. Lots of guys have NO PROBLEM controlling themselves...the people with the urge to act on it are what we call “sickos”...


The guys he's talking about, at least as I interpreted it, aren't guys who have done anything. They're just guys who don't have the opportunities to do so, and may not even know they have this urge to merge, as Gene calls it.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> The guys he's talking about, at least as I interpreted it, aren't guys who have done anything. They're just guys who don't have the opportunities to do so, and may not even know they have this urge to merge, as Gene calls it.


Lol...yeah, the urge itself makes them still sickos. Reminds me of the cave man knocking the woman out with a club and dragging her back to his cave...pfft, urge to merge my ass


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Lol...yeah, they’re still sickos. Reminds me of the cave man knocking the woman out with a club and dragging her back to his cave...pfft, urge to merge my ass


...You're not supposed to bash them over the head with a heavy club?

Shit.


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## Soya (Jun 26, 2018)

I think the bigger story is, man Maynard is 54?


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## toolsound (Jun 26, 2018)

Just calling them "sickos" doesn't really add to the conversation or help address the issue. You might try to understand how and why someone becomes a "sicko" in the first place. Or what that term even really means.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

You’re totally legitimizing the behavior now...if you want to defend men who victimize women (or anyone intentionally harming someone) maybe you need some counseling as well. I’ve added more to the conversation than simply calling them sickos and if someone were to assault my wife or daughter...knowing how or why their behavior manifested would not stop my swift retribution.


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## toolsound (Jun 26, 2018)

You're putting words in my mouth. There is a difference between defending someone and understanding them. You can study an issue in order to try and defeat it while still holding people responsible for their actions.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 26, 2018)

Try to understand after they’re in Prison...and only to prevent and identify the illness and lock up more of them.


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## KailM (Jun 26, 2018)

It's hard to know what to believe anymore. Is there really THIS much bullshit going on? Or is this trend of whistleblowing just a chance to cash-in for whatever reason?

It's not that I don't believe it. That stuff about "Maynard passes" on that Twitter page rubbed me the wrong way regardless of the rape allegation. That shit is just so far beyond the bounds of any way I'd ever imagine behaving; no offense intended to anyone here.

I know I've posted numerous times about "separating the art from the artist" but this would be a deal breaker for me. The damning thing is, we'll probably never know the truth.


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## KailM (Jun 26, 2018)

Double post.


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## toolsound (Jun 26, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Try to understand after they’re in Prison...and only to prevent and identify the illness and lock up more of them.



I don't disagree with you, but I also think you have a lot of emotion wrapped up in this. I understand since you have a wife and daughter. I have a girlfriend and a college-aged sister, so I can relate on that front.

But have you ever considered why some men have these desires while you do not? Perhaps you are simply lucky to not have them. The same way you are lucky to have other privileges you were born into or gifted as a result of your DNA and parental upbringing. It's easy to be angry at someone who does terrible things, but they are still human.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I just think women should be able to go and enjoy the same activities everyone likes without having to worry about being sexually harassed by any guy who can’t control their hormones (for whatever reason). I think men have more of a duty to protect women than to let their urges get the better of them...pretty simple stuff


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> I don't disagree with you, but I also think you have a lot of emotion wrapped up in this. I understand since you have a wife and daughter. I have a girlfriend and a college-aged sister, so I can relate on that front.
> 
> But have you ever considered why some men have these desires while you do not? Perhaps you are simply lucky to not have them. The same way you are lucky to have other privileges you were born into or gifted as a result of your DNA and parental upbringing. It's easy to be angry at someone who does terrible things, but they are still human.


I think I have the same desires every heterosexual male has...I just fail to believe that sexual urges override thinking capacity. If it does...you have a problem


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I think I have the same desires every heterosexual male has...I just fail to believe that sexual urges override thinking capacity. If it does...you have a problem



Really? You think desire is exactly the same for all men? We know this is not true on multiple levels. There are people that seek help in many forms to stop drinking, using drugs, gambling, gaming, etc., and yet they cannot stop themselves. I can't relate to any of those desires, but I recognize they exist in other people.

You said it yourself, they "have a problem." The point is to try to understand the problem rather than say it's "pretty simple stuff." If it were so simple, it probably wouldn't be such a rampant issue that has been repeated across history and global society.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I said “problem” sarcastically...and it’s pretty simple how to handle them after they’re caught...remember, they usually get away with it a few times before they get “caught”, and every pervert lies their ass off because they know EXACTLY what they’re doing. ‘To catch a predator’ shows how fucked up these people are -they don’t care. They show up with condoms and Mike’s hard lemonade and state EVERY TIME that they “weren’t going to do anything but talk”...some even go rants about how they were going to “counsel” them after they show up with a duffle bag of porn. You need to get your head straight

I have zero sympathy for perverts


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

You're missing the point. I'm not denying the things these people do, nor am I saying that they shouldn't be held responsible. All I'm saying is that calling them sickos or stating our desire around retribution does nothing to resolve the problem. We could send every one of these men to a death chamber, and it would probably generate a happy audience every single time, but we would continue to have the same problem.

Therefor, take the emotion out of it. Look at the behavior with a scientific curiosity, and perhaps you might find a solution that will benefit society for the long haul.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> You're missing the point. I'm not denying the things these people do, nor am I saying that they shouldn't be held responsible. All I'm saying is that calling them sickos or stating our desire around retribution does nothing to resolve the problem. We could send every one of these men to a death chamber, and it would probably generate a happy audience every single time, but we would continue to have the same problem.
> 
> Therefor, take the emotion out of it. Look at the behavior with a scientific curiosity, and perhaps you might find a solution that will benefit society for the long haul.


You can try to glue a priceless broken lamp back together but it’s still worthless now that it’s broken -get my point?

You’re correct that it would never TOTALLY stop, but if you threw perverts feet-first into a wood chipper it would become a very low statistic


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Should we NOT call them sickos?...you’re right, I’m not following you...you keep saying you’re not, but you’re coming off like a pervert defender


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

I'm tempted to respond again, but I don't feel like we are making progress towards a resolved conversation, so I'm leaving it here. Have a good night.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 27, 2018)

It's simple. Nail the pervert by his dick to a stump, set the stump on fire and give him a butter knife. If he wants to live bad enough... well... you know.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 27, 2018)

I’m not believing anything until I see the metalsucks article.


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## Soya (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Should we NOT call them sickos?...you’re right, I’m not following you...you keep saying you’re not, but you’re coming off like a pervert defender



No, he really isn't. You need to relax man.


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## The Mirror (Jun 27, 2018)

I call bullshit until anything is proven.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I just think women should be able to go and enjoy the same activities everyone likes without having to worry about being sexually harassed by any guy who can’t control their hormones (for whatever reason). I think men have more of a duty to protect women than to let their urges get the better of them...pretty simple stuff



Dude no one is against this, this kind of thinking is divisive and counter-intuitive. Regardless of how you feel, @toolsound never said anything that legitimizes the actions of sexual predators. Wanting to understand the mental scope of someone who goes that far is a legitimate thing, and he's right getting emotional in the conversation like you just did doesn't advance the discussion. But you seem to be keen on this idea that there's some group of people don't seem to agree with your viewpoint that, Women should be able to walk around at past 10pm without having to look over her shoulder at all?

No sane person would disagree with this notion, if they disagree they're more than likely one of the people committing these acts. You're essentially arguing and fighting with no one, reminds me of this clip I saw where Crowder is having one of his "change my mind talks" and this passionate dude has a conversation with him and says "Wouldn't it be great if men didn't rape". And Crowder as well as the crowd looked at him and said "Who are you arguing with".

Just don't go around labeling people as "pervert defenders" that shit is childish and what he was saying had nothing to do with that. Arrest and enforce the law against sexual predators, but what he's getting at is we should also inch closer to understanding what leads people to think that way to prevent it in the future. Yeah rapists are "sickos", but where did that get us? Having an emotionally driven stance effectively makes it impossible to hold a conversation that will lead to any common ground.


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## blacai (Jun 27, 2018)

I would not deny the accusations, because I wasn't there.... If she was raped, the fact she does it public now, after XX years for whatever reasons, doesn't change the fact she might be raped.
But I also believe people have the right to defend their honor, so Maynard should be judged and the jury will resolve this issue. If he did it or not.


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## Fred the Shred (Jun 27, 2018)

This whole story is rather... odd. Given Maynard's well documented lavish sex parties and pretty damn obvious hookup passes, I see a bit of stuff that doesn't make much sense, especially the lady nobody ever saw in his entourage, who had dudes distributing passes to girls he could fancy inviting to party and have sex. I won't deny or confirm anything, as I wasn't there, but it's just so... odd.


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## Dropsonic (Jun 27, 2018)

The #MeToo movement has no doubt brought to light a lot of scum operating within the circles of entertainment, who ruthlessly and without endangering themselves in anyway took advantage of people who in no way deserved what happened.
However, the #MeToo movement also operated under circumstances, where the role of the judge was handed down to the masses, foregoing the "innocent until proven guilty" premise that is fundamental to Western society.

More than just the twitter accuser have come forth and spoken about some shady shit that has happened with MJK, which might indicate that he has engaged in sexual acts that sometimes might have crossed the line. 

With that said, I need to see proof of culpability, whether that is from the accusers side or from the inevitable coming statement from MJK's camp. 

One thing I'd like to add:

I like the following line from Kubrick's Full Metal Jacket so much, and I believe it's more relevant than ever in this case.

"You talk the talk. Do you walk the walk?"

Whatever project Maynard wrote the lyrics for, a repeated theme in his work is exploration and curiosity. Not just externally but internally as well. The connection of body and soul. Another theme is overcoming the beast that dwells within every human being. Through that, true morality is found.
Ænima dealt with these themes. Obviously a huge inspiration for that album were the works of Carl Jung (See album/song title, Forty Six & Two, Third Eye etc.), who dedicated his life partly to the exploration of the human psyche. His conclusion was, that in order for a person to develop into a conscious being, that can fully manifest their potential in this world, they must overcome sides of themselves through a supreme moral effort.
Ænima was released in 96'. If actions that MJK condemns other people for on that album and through his art, are ones he himself is guilty of, then he is nothing but a false prophet.
Wanna know how to spot a hypocrite? See if a persons words manifest themselves in their actions, and if they don't you have yourself a hypocrite.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

Dropsonic said:


> Whatever project Maynard wrote the lyrics for, a repeated theme in his work is exploration and curiosity.


I hate when people try to throw some kind of of a weird "artistic" angle at famous people. Pseudo-intellectual lyrical nonsense doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this guy did or didn't cross the line with some people at his strange famous-person-sex-parties.

Am I the only one who finds the sex parties and passes to be sketchy to begin with, even if you take the accusations out of the mix? I mean, you'd have to be tripping on some kind of power fantasy to begin with to elevate yourself to the level of giving out passes saying _"Have you serviced your gladiator today?", _so to go from that to a situation where someone feels taken advantage of isn't a huge stretch.

Stories like this make me more and more hate how we elevate famous people to some other set of standards.


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## Dropsonic (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I hate when people try to throw some kind of of a weird "artistic" angle at famous people. Pseudo-intellectual lyrical nonsense doesn't have anything to do with whether or not this guy did or didn't cross the line with some people at his strange famous-person-sex-parties.



If you seriously dismiss people like MJK for being pseudo intellectual, completely throw away the notion of artistic expression then you and I have opposite approaches and interpretations when it comes to art. 
Bands like Tool embody and represent the transcendental element of art and expression, and that band is a clear case of union between the artist and the art. 



TedEH said:


> Am I the only one who finds the sex parties and passes to be sketchy to begin with, even if you take the accusations out of the mix? I mean, you'd have to be tripping on some kind of power fantasy to begin with to elevate yourself to the level of giving out passes saying _"Have you serviced your gladiator today?", _so to go from that to a situation where someone feels taken advantage of isn't a huge stretch.
> 
> Stories like this make me more and more hate how we elevate famous people to some other set of standards.



I completely agree with this. Fame gives power and power corrupts. Sex parties sound twisted and dark, like something straight out of a Nine Inch Nails song. If consent is given from all participants, cool. Good for you. But like you say, in a situation like that where personal borders are blurry things escalate quickly.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

Dropsonic said:


> If you seriously dismiss people like MJK for being pseudo intellectual, completely throw away the notion of artistic expression then you and I have opposite approaches and interpretations when it comes to art.


We absolutely have different interpretations of art. Gonna disagree with you all day long on this. It's all extremely pseudo intellectual nonsense.



Dropsonic said:


> Bands like Tool embody and represent the transcendental element of art and expression, and that band is a clear case of union between the artist and the art.


It's BS like this that allows famous people to get away with nonsense. They're not gods, they haven't transcended anything, they aren't smarter than us, they haven't figured out some deeper meaning to life- they're just people. Sometimes they're sh*tty people. If you worship them as something higher than the average person, you're giving them the kind of power to act outside of the standards we apply to everyone else.


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## Dropsonic (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> We absolutely have different interpretations of art. Gonna disagree with you all day long on this. It's all extremely pseudo intellectual nonsense.
> 
> 
> It's BS like this that allows famous people to get away with nonsense. They're not gods, they haven't transcended anything, they aren't smarter than us, they haven't figured out some deeper meaning to life- they're just people. Sometimes they're sh*tty people. If you worship them as something higher than the average person, you're giving them the kind of power to act outside of the standards we apply to everyone else.



While we might not agree on our particular interpretations of art, which is completely fine, I actually think we agree completely on the second point you raised. 
I stand by what I said with regards to Tool. However, nowhere did I state that this elevates the band members as individuals above other mere "mortals". Nor did I write that it's in anyway an excuse to behave in a reprehensible manner. A shitty person is a shitty person no matter what achievements they boast of or whatever fame and worship they deem themselves worthy of. And no one should get away with this kind of behavior.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

Dropsonic said:


> However, nowhere did I state that this elevates the band members as individuals above other mere "mortals".


You may not have meant to state it, but I know there are some people who treat famous people this way, even if it happens on a subconscious level.

I'm pretty convinced that we, as a whole, tend to let famous people or artists get away with a lot of stuff that wouldn't fly if we didn't first evaluate them on the thing they're famous for. Random neighbor hands out passes that grant people the privilege of servicing him at his sex parties? That dude would be pegged as a creep immediately. But when someone who writes edgy/arty lyrics first and gets famous for it, THEN hands out invites for the privilege of pleasuring famous people - somehow that gets passed over as "just part of the scene, maaaaan". It's a pretty clear double standard, that's all I meant to point out.


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## KailM (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Am I the only one who finds the sex parties and passes to be sketchy to begin with, even if you take the accusations out of the mix? I mean, you'd have to be tripping on some kind of power fantasy to begin with to elevate yourself to the level of giving out passes saying _"Have you serviced your gladiator today?", _so to go from that to a situation where someone feels taken advantage of isn't a huge stretch.
> 
> Stories like this make me more and more hate how we elevate famous people to some other set of standards.



I found this pretty bothersome as well. I understand that the groupie thing has been going on forever, but it's never been something I've been cool with. Personal beliefs and all. YMMV. I just think that once a guy walks down that road and stays on it for a while, nothing good usually comes of it.


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## Dropsonic (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> You may not have meant to state it, but I know there are some people who treat famous people this way, even if it happens on a subconscious level.



I agree. But didn't you just subconsciously project a whole lotta conclusions to my posts, that are completely out of context? 
I don't mean to start anything here. Cause at the bottom of it all, I think you and I completely agree with what is acceptable behaviour and what is not. As you write, double standards are bullshit no matter what your status in a given culture is. And that was exactly what my original post in this thread was referring to.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

Dropsonic said:


> But didn't you just subconsciously project a whole lotta conclusions to my posts, that are completely out of context?


Not really. I drew a connection between two statements you made that you didn't intend to be connected, one of which we agreed on, and the other we see differently.

If anything, I think it illustrates my point a bit. I connected one part of your output to another, when I shouldn't have. Much like we shouldn't connect MJK's artistic output to how he treats the people around him.


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## Dropsonic (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> If anything, I think it illustrates my point a bit. I connected one part of your output to another, when I shouldn't have. Much like we shouldn't connect MJK's artistic output to how he treats the people around him.



Fair enough. I understand your point which I, while not completely agreeing with it, find perfectly valid.


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## Randy (Jun 27, 2018)

Not justifying anything that's in this story, but just wanted to put it out there 'I was 17 and he was 36' is kind of an irrelevant headline when she was above the age of consent at the time. 'Lucky for him he beat it by 1 year' okay, but maybe he wouldn't have done if you were a year younger either...? Also, forced rape is just as egregious regardless of your age. I just don't know how waving your age around is relevant unless you're claiming statutory rape, which they don't appear to be.

I don't know, I'll obviously take the victims word on it and wait to see if there's another side to this story of course, and I don't want to do any victim shaming/blaming, I'm just not entirely sure why they led off with that unless it was for added effect.


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## xzacx (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I'm pretty convinced that we, as a whole, tend to let famous people or artists get away with a lot of stuff that wouldn't fly if we didn't first evaluate them on the thing they're famous for.



I agree with this. 100%. But for the sake of context, I think it's worth considering that celebrities and athletes also get scrutinized on a level that others don't, as well.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 27, 2018)

Tool is terrible. Therefore, he probably did it.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

xzacx said:


> But for the sake of context, I think it's worth considering that celebrities and athletes also get scrutinized on a level that others don't, as well.


Sure, absolutely. Double standards, all around .


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## Albake21 (Jun 27, 2018)

Randy said:


> Not justifying anything that's in this story, but just wanted to put it out there 'I was 17 and he was 36' is kind of an irrelevant headline when she was above the age of consent at the time. 'Lucky for him he beat it by 1 year' okay, but maybe he wouldn't have done if you were a year younger either...? Also, forced rape is just as egregious regardless of your age. I just don't know how waving your age around is relevant unless you're claiming statutory rape, which they don't appear to be.
> 
> I don't know, I'll obviously take the victims word on it and wait to see if there's another side to this story of course, and I don't want to do any victim shaming/blaming, I'm just not entirely sure why they led off with that unless it was for added effect.


I kinda agree with this. I think the biggest problem I see here is the lack of proof and the fact that it was so damn long ago. Obviously all of this is totally possible, but you can't just take anyones words from some random twitter post. Especially in 2018 when you have a ridiculous amount of fake rape claims. 

While the whole "MeToo" movement has good intentions, it's just one big shit show of pointing fingers with no proof at all.


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## xzacx (Jun 27, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> While the whole "MeToo" movement has good intentions, it's just *one big shit show of pointing fingers with no proof at all.*



This is pure ignorance. There's been documented evidence, charges filed, and admissions of misconduct that have been a direct result of the it. False accusations too? I'd assume so, but those also were around before.


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## Albake21 (Jun 27, 2018)

xzacx said:


> This is pure ignorance. There's been documented evidence, charges filed, and admissions of misconduct that have been a direct result of the it. False accusations too? I'd assume so, but those also were around before.


For some...... but with the sheer amount of outcry, the majority of them do no have evidence. I didn't mean they all don't have evidence, just a lot, if not most. The media makes it look like most do, but the reality is only the ones with evidence are the ones being shown the most and for good reasons of course. I'm sorry if I offend anyone, but with the sheer amount of fake/false accusations that have ruined guy's lives, I have to take everything with a grain of salt until proven otherwise.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> the sheer amount of fake/false accusations that have ruined guy's lives


To be fair, I don't know that I've seen a huuuuuge number of cases of guys lives being completely ruined for no reason. The only place where this movement actually hit "real life" in my world was justified. I had a case come up among local friends/community where this movement sort of allowed people to finally tell their stories about one particular person who we all knew was a dirt bag, but nobody wanted to speak out about him. It made me sort of re-think the impact of the movement. I know that my analogy isn't representative of the whole world, or the movement, or whether or not the average case is justified or not, but neither is the wave of stories we get from news/internet.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very critical of the kind of collateral damage caused by a movement like this, or by activism in general, but at the same time..... I'm glad this guy finally got called out. Lets not let the news decide our picture of reality too much. For every claim that comes to us via the internet and sparks debate about false accusations and such, how many not-publicized cases have been helped out by this? I get tired of accusations flying all over the place too, but there's an argument to be made that the movement isn't about accurately nailing every case, it's about changing the public attitude about whether or not it's ok or safe to speak up when something does actually happen.

At one point I was 100% on the side of "gah, not anooooother accusation, can we just stop this?" but I'm slowly making my way to the other side of the conversation.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

I think it's ironic and also don't think it's fair to say the "majority" of #MeToo situations had no evidence without providing actual research and statistics to back that up 

It's more appropriate to say that false claims also existed amidst the allegations and stories told by that movement.

And I mean this was a situation where the media took their own justice before any facts were presented and it took a toll on the person being accused.

https://www.essence.com/news/texas-woman-accuses-police-officer-daniel-hubbard-rape

They released body cam footage and there was zero instances of anything she claimed happened.


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## blacai (Jun 27, 2018)

wrong thread...


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I really believe looking at this solely from a scientific or educational point of view is where action starts to get lost...I understand the desire to study and identify sexual behavior, but to always come at rapes and assaults from a “learning” aspect ALSO does nothing to prevent the problem and more than likely lead to “rehabilitation” than accountability...especially if you only look at the backside of the deal (after it’s too late) -look at the statistics on sex offenders’ likeliness to re-offend. People like to get lost in the finite details and can get as deep as David Attenborough while they discuss things endlessly, at some point you take action instead of waiting for studies to take literally decades before people agree on how to deal with sex offenders (can I call them sex offenders?) yeesh, throw them in prison when they’re caught and study them while they’re in prison. The philanthropists can live out their wet dream of consoling bad people while the sex offenders still get punished (preferably at shower time). Study ‘em all you want but let’s keep society safe first, huh?


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

Where do you see rapists and sex offenders being set aside in the name of science as guinea pigs instead of rotting in jail?

You seem to think that we're in some alternate reality where studying the mind of a criminal = legitimizing their behavior and it nullifies the criminal of their punishment. Might be hard for you to believe, but those studies are trying to find where and WHAT went wrong and if it's something we can dissect and figure out. If you're actually concerned about handling things "before it's too late" then this is the path that leads to it.

Let's talk solutions, what do you bring to the table in the form of suggestions for how to handle criminals then? Because AFAIK if they're indicted, they're punished in some form or another.

What you're calling for is your own sense of justice and retribution, you want rapists to be raped themselves in prison for their actions. Let me know how that suggestion holds up in a courtroom where a rapist is actually getting tried and sentenced.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Dude no one is against this, this kind of thinking is divisive and counter-intuitive. Regardless of how you feel, @toolsound never said anything that legitimizes the actions of sexual predators. Wanting to understand the mental scope of someone who goes that far is a legitimate thing, and he's right getting emotional in the conversation like you just did doesn't advance the discussion. But you seem to be keen on this idea that there's some group of people don't seem to agree with your viewpoint that, Women should be able to walk around at past 10pm without having to look over her shoulder at all?
> 
> No sane person would disagree with this notion, if they disagree they're more than likely one of the people committing these acts. You're essentially arguing and fighting with no one, reminds me of this clip I saw where Crowder is having one of his "change my mind talks" and this passionate dude has a conversation with him and says "Wouldn't it be great if men didn't rape". And Crowder as well as the crowd looked at him and said "Who are you arguing with".
> 
> Just don't go around labeling people as "pervert defenders" that shit is childish and what he was saying had nothing to do with that. Arrest and enforce the law against sexual predators, but what he's getting at is we should also inch closer to understanding what leads people to think that way to prevent it in the future. Yeah rapists are "sickos", but where did that get us? Having an emotionally driven stance effectively makes it impossible to hold a conversation that will lead to any common ground.


I think the problem he has with it is that it's similar to the stance society has taken with drug abuse, and the idea of "we'll reduce your sentencing if you check into rehab."

Note: I was going to post this last night, but didn't because I started to feel ill. Nate's post basically confirms my assumptions.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

Sure and excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong, but does that actually happen in situations involving sexual predators? AFAIK you get put on the Sex Offender Registry and you never get the chance to recover or rehabilitate from it.

I think it's appropriate with Drugs to offer rehabilitation because an addicts actions affect himself more than anything.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> I think it's appropriate with Drugs to offer rehabilitation because an addicts actions affect himself more than anything.


Oh, is that so? 



Jonathan20022 said:


> Sure and excuse my ignorance if I'm wrong, but does that actually happen in situations involving sexual predators? AFAIK you get put on the Sex Offender Registry and you never get the chance to recover or rehabilitate from it.


The argument being made is taking a similar stance of "understanding" could result in a similar "let's give them a lighter sentence in lieu of 'rehab'."


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

Yeah sorry, but rape involves two individuals. Very different from something as nuanced as Drug use. Not comparable in the first place.

I'm still waiting for instances where Sexual Offenders are given leniency and the opportunity to rehabilitate with minor consequence back into society.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

Drug use affects more than just the person abusing drugs. You do realize that, I hope...?

And do you even read before replying, or...? Changing the way we look at sexual predators could result in taking a more lenient approach.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

Are you referencing family and close connections? Because suicide affects that grouping of people as well as nearly any crime. If we're talking indirect involvement like being associated with the victim/criminal sure.

I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about directly direct victims in which case Drug Users ARE the only major victims there.


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## tedtan (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> The *philanthropists* can live out their wet dream of consoling bad people while the sex offenders still get punished (preferably at shower time). Study ‘em all you want but let’s keep society safe first, huh?



Philanthropy: "The desire to promote the welfare of others, expressed especially by the generous donation of money to good causes."

philanthropist: one who practices philanthropy.

Did you perhaps mean psychologists?


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## tedtan (Jun 27, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Changing the way we look at sexual predators could result in taking a more lenient approach.



Perhaps, but the intent is not to affect the punishment, but rather to use the information obtained to prevent others from committing similar acts in the future.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Are you referencing family and close connections? Because suicide affects that grouping of people as well as nearly any crime. If we're talking indirect involvement like being associated with the victim/criminal sure.
> 
> I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about directly direct victims in which case Drug Users ARE the only major victims there.


I'm talking about children who grow up in these environments and have shitty lives because their parents value a high over their children.

I'm talking about drug sales funding criminal acts.

I'm talking about people the person knows -- or people the person doesn't know -- who gets robbed so the person can get a high.

I'm talking about the people being funded above the gangs, such as people distributing cocaine and heroin/opium in Afghanistan and Colombia who also commit criminal acts. I'm also talking drug traffickers who engage in other things like human trafficking.

The idea of drug users being the "ONLY major victims" is... just wow.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

tedtan said:


> Perhaps, but the intent is not to affect the punishment, but rather to use the information obtained to prevent others from committing similar acts in the future.


Except it will also affect punishments just like it has with drug abuse.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

First off, you mentioned Drug use not Drug distribution or the Drug War. If you wanted to talk about the Drug War then say it instead of just alluding to it. 

I'm Brazilian, and both sides of my family live in areas that are riddled with the consequences of Drugs people making a buck off of other's addiction.

My point still stands, if I overdose on drugs because of my own negligence then that's my own fault and I'm the only casualty. There's no 2 person dynamic there, Sexual Assault involves the Predator and the Victim. Rape/Drug use are not mutually exclusive in consequence nor severity.

That's not even the topic at hand so I'll answer your previous point about what we're actually talking about.

No I don't think you can make the call that leniency will be a result of trying to understand and prevent this kind of behavior. That line of thinking is simply against progress and ending the problem.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

tedtan said:


> Philanthropy: "The desire to promote the welfare of others, expressed especially by the generous donation of money to good causes."
> 
> philanthropist: one who practices philanthropy.
> 
> Did you perhaps mean psychologists?


I know very well what I’m talking about...philanthropy while dealing with wellbeing also has a duty to better societal problems, usually starting with societies “worst”...rapists, murderers, pedophiles then on to the drug addicted and homeless. Not all is bad -not all is good, either. I’ve never seen such an outpouring of support for men who abuse women...wow is right...


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> First off, you mentioned Drug use not Drug distribution or the Drug War. If you wanted to talk about the Drug War then say it instead of just alluding to it.
> 
> I'm Brazilian, and both sides of my family live in areas that are riddled with the consequences of Drugs people making a buck off of other's addiction.
> 
> ...


Yeah, definitely not continuing this convo with you. It's already off topic enough as it is, and I highly disagree with your odd notions that it "mainly only affects the user."


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## Rawkmann (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I’ve never seen such an outpouring of support for men who abuse women...wow is right...



And You're still not seeing it. As far as I can tell nobody is showing 'support' for abusers in this thread.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I know very well what I’m talking about...philanthropy while dealing with wellbeing also has a duty to better societal problems, usually starting with societies “worst”...rapists, murderers, pedophiles then on to the drug addicted and homeless. Not all is bad -not all is good, either. I’ve never seen such an outpouring of support for men who abuse women...wow is right...



Support? Really? Are you in the wrong reality where the comments in this thread read differently to what I'm seeing?



Spaced Out Ace said:


> Yeah, definitely not continuing this convo with you. It's already off topic enough as it is, and I highly disagree with your odd notions that it "mainly only affects the user."



Likewise, you brought up Drugs and that has no relevance and wouldn't lead to anything that relates to the topic we're talking about. It's not my fault you don't want to finish the thought you contributed to the discussion.

I made an attempt to bring it back to what the topic is about, but if you don't want to talk about it because I don't agree with some irrelevant details then that's fine no skin off my bones.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Rawkmann said:


> And You're still not seeing it. As far as I can tell nobody is showing 'support' for abusers in this thread.


Yes...they are. By coming to the CONSTANT defense of ANY statement made against rapists or abusers IS essentially condoning it. It’s true because those defending (or “wanting to learn from” lol) the behavior also seem to be against any punishment and also are raising points that sex offenders’ lives is now “harder” because of what they got caught doing. All these lines of thinking are ABSOLUTELY defending these people...


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## lucasreis (Jun 27, 2018)

#MeTool


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Some (?) people can’t just say “raping women isn’t cool and I’m against it”...it’s being followed with lots of “buts” and rebuttal.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Some (?) people can’t just say “raping women isn’t cool and I’m against it”...it’s being followed with lots of “buts” and rebuttal.


But but but... we need to study it, understand it, and then offer them rehab so it's easier for them to reintegrate into society.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

These are the same people who stand and do nothing when bad shit goes down...


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> But but but... we need to study it, understand it, and then offer them rehab so it's easier for them to reintegrate into society.


....exactly


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Yes...they are. By coming to the CONSTANT defense of ANY statement made against rapists or abusers IS essentially condoning it. It’s true because those defending (or “wanting to learn from” lol) the behavior also seem to be against any punishment and also are raising points that their life is now “harder” because of what they got caught doing. All these lines of thinking are ABSOLUTELY defending these people...





Jonathan20022 said:


> Arrest and enforce the law against sexual predators, but what he's getting at is we should also inch closer to understanding what leads people to think that way to prevent it in the future.



Yeah gonna call bullshit on that, we can disagree all day but don't put words in other's mouths. If you honestly think anyone said anything close to what you're implying, quote them. I'm not even in the camp of learning behavioral patterns, I'm just against your idea that whoever takes that path is some kind of rape apologist. You're demonizing people who are after the same thing you want, the end of Rape and Sexual Predation.

If you can't see that, then there's no point in arguing it further with you. You're selectively perceiving what is actually happening in here and misinterpreting people.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Yeah gonna call bullshit on that, we can disagree all day but don't put words in other's mouths. If you honestly think anyone said anything close to what you're implying, quote them. I'm not even in the camp of learning behavioral patterns, I'm just against your idea that whoever takes that path is some kind of rape apologist. You're demonizing people who are after the same thing you want, the end of Rape and Sexual Predation.
> 
> If you can't see that, then there's no point in arguing it further with you. You're selectively perceiving what is actually happening in here and misinterpreting people.


Feel how you’d like...I get it. I’m glad the groper at the show got the shit beat out of him and feel good that at least some people still have the guts to do the right thing


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## tedtan (Jun 27, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Except it will also affect punishments just like it has with drug abuse.



I may be wrong here, but to the best of my knowledge, a drug addict is capable of overcoming his addiction, whereas a rapist is typically not able to overcome his demons without castration. Given that, I doubt that anything learned from rapists will be used to lighten their sentences without a significant breakthrough.




NateFalcon said:


> I know very well what I’m talking about...philanthropy while dealing with wellbeing also has a duty to better societal problems, usually starting with societies “worst”...rapists, murderers, pedophiles then on to the drug addicted and homeless. Not all is bad -not all is good, either.



Except that working with these people is not philanthropy, it's a job.




NateFalcon said:


> I’ve never seen such an outpouring of support for men who abuse women...wow is right...



Where are you seeing that?


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Feel how you’d like...I get it. I’m glad the groper at the show got the shit beat out of him and feel good that at least some people still have the guts to do the right thing



Can I make sweeping generalizations about you without personally knowing you in any way shape or form as well?


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I just told you...look over the defensive comments


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> Can I make sweeping generalizations about you without personally knowing you in any way shape or form as well?


What the hell are you talking about?


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## tedtan (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Yes...they are. By coming to the CONSTANT defense of ANY statement made against rapists or abusers IS essentially condoning it. It’s true because those defending (or “wanting to learn from” lol) the behavior also seem to be against any punishment and also are raising points that sex offenders’ lives is now “harder” because of what they got caught doing. All these lines of thinking are ABSOLUTELY defending these people...





Spaced Out Ace said:


> But but but... we need to study it, understand it, and then offer them rehab so it's easier for them to reintegrate into society.



No one here has defended a rapist, said anything contrary to punishing them for their crimes, raised points about sex offenders' lives being more difficult for having been caught, nor anything about reintegrating them into society.

The point is study them (while they are in prison is fine) in order to learn how to prevent other rapists from raping in the future.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I’ve read the defensive comments...they’re not sweeping generalizations


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## Jonathan20022 (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> It’s true because those defending (or “wanting to learn from” lol) the behavior also seem to be against any punishment and also are raising points that sex offenders’ lives is now “harder” because of what they got caught doing. All these lines of thinking are ABSOLUTELY defending these people...



You're still lacking a single quote of anyone even remotely implying this. Take your time and show me a single person implying this, I'll wait.

Not a single person in this thread has defended or supported these people.


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## Soya (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Yes...they are. By coming to the CONSTANT defense of ANY statement made against rapists or abusers IS essentially condoning it.



I'm sorry, but I just have to say this is THE most ignorant, misguided, and nonsensical statement I have ever seen on this forum. Labeling anyone that disagrees with you as a rape apologist just boggles the mind, and is really saddening.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

tedtan said:


> whereas a rapist is typically not able to overcome his demons without castration


At the risk of being lumped in as a "defender of rapists", is this an assumption, or has this been studied in some way? It reads to me like an assumption.


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## Rawkmann (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Yes...they are. By coming to the CONSTANT defense of ANY statement made against rapists or abusers IS essentially condoning it.



You're definition of 'DEFENSE' is someone looking logically at an unfortunately very real problem and wanting to come up with a real solution. Saying things like "Lock them up and throw away the key" or "Just shoot em" is cathartic to say but doesn't accomplish anything.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Rawkmann said:


> You're definition of 'DEFENSE' is someone looking logically at an unfortunately very real problem and wanting to come up with a real solution. Saying things like "Lock them up and throw away the key" or "Just shoot em" is cathartic to say but doesn't accomplish anything.


...it’s still defending it. You’re NOT coming up with a solution...


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Soya said:


> I'm sorry, but I just have to say this is THE most ignorant, misguided, and nonsensical statement I have ever seen on this forum. Labeling anyone that disagrees with you as a rape apologist just boggles the mind, and is really saddening.


Then be mind boggled...I don’t care that people disagree with me


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I don’t think many women would agree with you...


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 27, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> But but but... we need to study it, understand it, and then offer them rehab so it's easier for them to reintegrate into society.



Dude, what? Are we really making fun of trying to understand strange behavior now?
If I wanted to study spree killers to try to figure out why in the hell someone would just start offing people for literally no reason, does that make me a murder-supporter?
How can you possibly connect those dots? This is some of the most impressive mental gymnastics I've ever seen in my life.



NateFalcon said:


> ...it’s still defending it. You’re NOT coming up with a solution...



And neither are you. Thanks for playing.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I don’t care that people disagree with me


It's one thing to disagree with people, it's another to say that if people disagree with you then they must be rape apologists.
Everyone has the same goal here, lets step back and stop attacking each other over an insignificant disagreement.

Nobody is defending rape, and nobody has yet put forward anything that "solves" rape either.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

The goggles are thick on this site...


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> It's one thing to disagree with people, it's another to say that if people disagree with you then they must be rape apologists.
> Everyone has the same goal here, lets step back and stop attacking each other over an insignificant disagreement.
> 
> Nobody is defending rape, and nobody has yet put forward anything that "solves" rape either.


I hear you, and I’m not tying to call everyone a defender who simply disagrees with me on certain points. I just disagree on the fact that studying their behavior prevents it -far from it in fact. You can’t fix something when it’s “broken”...it’s hard-wired into them. Preventing it, yeah...there’s always going to be mentally fucked up people but once you cross a line where you’re a danger to society, the understanding needs to take a backseat to public safety. If you want to study them in prison I have no problem with that. I just think the stances come off as lenient to the point of just waiting for the info to come in...as we’ve gotten no closer to an answer


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## Soya (Jun 27, 2018)

Nate, I think it's time to take a step back and relax a bit. Nothing is moving forward here.


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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> I hear you


Ok, we've got some forward momentum in understanding each other here then-
I don't think anyone here is suggesting we just wait and be forgiving while waiting for studies to happen. Anyone who put that forward, not to put words in peoples mouths, but I don't think that what anyone intended to imply. Prevention and public safety is absolutely the goal. The question about "can they be fixed" is something that people want real answers to, rather than just assuming though- but of course not at the expense of leaving anyone at risk. That doesn't mean we don't want to punish people for their crimes, only that anything we can learn about the situation is a potential gain in terms of trying to improve safety.


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## cwhitey2 (Jun 27, 2018)




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## TedEH (Jun 27, 2018)

That weird diversion aside, has anything else come up relevant to this particular case?


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## ArtDecade (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> That weird diversion aside, has anything else come up relevant to this particular case?



I'm glad you asked. I was doing very heady research into the Fibonacci sequence used in Lateralus and determined that Maynard is a dork.


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## wat (Jun 27, 2018)

Quite a bit of gnashing of teeth over an _allegation_ of a rape 20 years ago.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

The topic devolved from Maynard for sure lol. The high tension is typical with these subjects, As i mentioned people with kids and particularly women are going to typically have strong thoughts about their protection and safety when it comes to these things. I feel the soft approach seems to be working in the wrong direction. Others disagree


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## tedtan (Jun 27, 2018)

TedEH said:


> At the risk of being lumped in as a "defender of rapists", is this an assumption, or has this been studied in some way? It reads to me like an assumption.



I’ve spoken with some police officers and corrections officers who think so, but I haven’t personally done any research into it. I do know that electing to be castrated will sometimes allow rape convicts to be released from prison earlier, at least in the US.




NateFalcon said:


> I feel the soft approach seems to be working in the wrong direction. Others disagree



What soft approach?

No one has suggested allowing the rapists to run free while they are being studied.

Convict them (if guilty), lock them up, study them while they are locked up, and use anything learned to help prevent future rapes. What is soft about that?


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

tedtan said:


> I’ve spoken with some police officers and corrections officers who think so, but I haven’t personally done any research into it. I do know that electing to be castrated will sometimes allow rape convicts to be released from prison earlier, at least in the US.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you not read anything I’ve presented previously?...they re-offend after getting out. The counseling doesn’t work. Period. Unless you mean ‘Clockwork Orange’ style treatment where you torture them into answers...the ‘rehabilitative’ style counseling is just a way to get a couple hours out of their cell while some clueless “social worker” collects a paycheck on my tax money...I have a right (by paying for it) to feel the way I do


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

How many times has a counselor given a “success” treatment diagnosis to a convicted rapist or pedophile just to see them re-offend again?...these state payroll counselors and treatment programs’ success rate is in the toilet...seriously


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> If you want to study them in prison I have no problem with that.



This is really all I wanted to hear from the very beginning. Let us try to understand the issue. Even if it has to be done from prison. The goal is to solve the problem, not be lenient on criminals.

I am a scientific thinker, and to me, this would be a scientific approach to the problem. Study it so that you learn from it.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> This is really all I wanted to hear from the very beginning. Let us try to understand the issue. Even if it has to be done from prison. The goal is to solve the problem, not be lenient on criminals.
> 
> I am a scientific thinker, and to me, this would be a scientific approach to the problem. Study it so that you learn from it.


And what Nate and I are saying is that they'll be given an option between either 5-10 years in prison or going through a rehabilitation program.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Lol...maybe we agree on a lot then, but it’s the rehabilitative aspect I have a problem with. I know every psychologist wants their patient to be a success story but often times known predators are released back into public because the laws hands are tied. I’d like to see stiffer sentences for sex offenders and for psychologists and state counselors use a little more common sense and be a little more honest when dealing with known sex offenders (hence my “soft approach” remark)...


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

Will we ever be able to rehabilitate these men with full confidence? I don't know the answer to that.

But one thing I would still suggest is this: If we believe these men are hard-wired and cannot be changed, I think it is appropriate to have pity/sympathy for them, even if we also decide they can never roam free again. We should be thanking our lucky stars every day that we are not hard-wired in the same way. I'm sure they wish they were wired differently - it would certainly make their lives easier.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> Will we ever be able to rehabilitate these men with full confidence? I don't know the answer to that.
> 
> But one thing I would still suggest is this: If we believe these men are hard-wired and cannot be changed, I think it is appropriate to have pity/sympathy for them, even if we also decide they can never roam free again. We should be thanking our lucky stars every day that we are not hard-wired in the same way. I'm sure they wish they were wired differently - it would certainly make their lives easier.


I wholeheartedly disagree on the pity/sympathy point...I AM thankful I’m a shameless defender of women (love you Mom!)...trust me, there’s a lot of personal back-story here. I was a male stripper in my early 20’s (no joke) so I got to see a whole other side of the harassment spectrum but women are seldom a threat to men and I’ve learned to look at the world through a chivalry scope, I’ve been in a lot of strange situations and NEVER had an incident with someone accusing me of something. If I were a celebrity I’d be extra cautious...I hope the Maynard incident never happened -if it did, I wouldn’t be shocked. People need to be careful the image they project


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

I feel you are contradicting yourself in this regard. You use your own experience to demonstrate how men should be decent around women, and yet you have already told us that you think pedophiles are hard-wired a certain way and that they are broken. Clearly you are hard-wired differently and are not broken, so there is no comparison to be made. If a pedophile were hard-wired like you, he wouldn't be a pedophile.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> I feel you are contradicting yourself in this regard. You use your own experience to demonstrate how men should be decent around women, and yet you have already told us that you think pedophiles are hard-wired a certain way and that they are broken. Clearly you a hard-wired differently and are not broken, so there is no comparison to be made. If a pedophile were hard-wired like you, he wouldn't be a pedophile.


Agree 100% that I’m wired differently than “them”...I just don’t have sympathy for the broken, and my own experience gives me a little experience in being in situations where controlling yourself is pivotal...how is that a contradiction?


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I think maybe we’re getting into some decent dialogue now...


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

Why not (i.e. why don't you have sympathy)? If wiring is to blame, it could've been you rather than them.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> Why not (i.e. why don't you have sympathy)? If wiring is to blame, it could've been you rather than them.


Can't speak for Nate, but sorry, my sympathy is all used up for victims of these acts.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> Why not (i.e. why don't you have sympathy)? If wiring is to blame, it could've been you rather than them.


Through what means though? DNA? upbringing? People ask “why” people can’t control themselves. We see a child or adolescent has a propensity toward deviant behavior we should intervene at that point. The contradiction I see is certain groups see THAT as a violation of rights (“my kid has rights”)...see where I’m going? A lot of these preventative laws step on their own feet


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

You raise your own kid (DNA pending lol) to hopefully not be a pervert...if it isn’t working, you haul your own kid down to the mental hospital...or the police station. I do believe upbringing plays a large roll


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

I have sympathy for the victims, but I have room for the criminals too. Either they are hard-wired in a way that was beyond their choosing, and/or they were victims themselves at some point in the past. It is a no-win situation for everyone involved, and that is very sad/unfortunate.

And just to be clear again, because I know it's going to come up if I'm not: what I'm saying here would not stop me from holding these criminals accountable for their crimes.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

...and the ones that are “hardwired” usually have LOTS of other mental problems to go along with their sexual problems as warning signs


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> You raise your own kid (DNA pending lol) to hopefully not be a pervert...if it isn’t working, you haul your own kid down to the mental hospital...or the police station. I do believe upbringing plays a large roll



I think you assume these criminals generally have normal parents. Personally, I believe some criminals are hard-wired, but I think many also experience significant trauma as children, which is often the perfect formula for creating a fucked up adult.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> I think you assume these criminals generally have normal parents. Personally, I believe some criminals are hard-wired, but I think many also experience significant trauma as children, which is often the perfect formula for creating a fucked up adult.


So because someone was raised “fucked up” we should treat them differently?


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I could write a gut-wrenching sob story about my fucked up childhood...?


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

Should you treat them differently? Perhaps. I'm just suggesting to have sympathy for them. Children don't choose how they want to be treated by their parents. It's not their fault.

Also, just because you had a fucked up childhood doesn't mean you are guaranteed to be a fucked up adult. That's where predispositions (i.e. DNA) plays a role.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

I’m luring you in, lol...we agree it’s a combination of things. We still don’t understand after 60+ years of fruitless scientific studies that ALL point to the negative...fucked up, Yes. HIGHLY likely to reoffend, Yes. We talk “equality” so treating them differently isn’t constitutionally viable. The ACLU fights at governmental level to keep from ‘incarcerating’ these people with serious mental disorders (hence the cool new high homeless rate) while stating we need equatable treatment at the same time (it gets deep)...they need locked up, not sympathy. This sympathy is what’s leading mentally ill people to run the streets...


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

My sympathy doesn't influence how I think we should treat these people in the justice system. 

What I am really alluding to here is just a small piece of a much larger viewpoint that I hold, which is that free will doesn't really exist. I think humans are mostly, if not completely, products of their genetic makeup and their environment. The idea of choice is mostly an illusion. But that is a conversation for a different day.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Like I stated before, this gets off original topic pretty quickly. Each comment tends to delve deeper and deeper into each previous comment until things inevitably go off rail...it’s cool, it’s still good dialogue


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> My sympathy doesn't influence how I think we should treat these people in the justice system.
> 
> What I am really alluding to here is just a small piece of a much larger viewpoint that I hold, which is that free will doesn't really exist. I think humans are mostly, if not completely, products of their genetic makeup and their environment. The idea of choice is mostly an illusion. But that is a conversation for a different day.


Again, that’s where we wholeheartedly disagree...I DO believe in free will


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Then why do perverts hide what they do?


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Then why do perverts hide what they do?



It's possible to know that you're doing something wrong while also feeling driven to do it. All criminals want to avoid being caught, regardless of what the crime is. They'll say anything to avoid the penalty. That's just human nature - it's not specific to perverts.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

toolsound said:


> It's possible to know that you're doing something wrong while also feeling driven to do it. All criminals want to avoid being caught, regardless of what the crime is. They'll say anything to avoid the penalty. That's just human nature - it's not specific to perverts.


I agree, all criminals don’t want to be caught....because they know exactly what they’re doing and that it’s wrong...


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## NateFalcon (Jun 27, 2018)

Psychotic and schizophrenic people can’t control their behavior...I understand THAT


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## toolsound (Jun 27, 2018)

Do you believe addiction is real? Alcoholics know that drinking is bad for them, and many of them want to stop, and yet those same people sometimes drink themselves to death.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 28, 2018)

toolsound said:


> Do you believe addiction is real? Alcoholics know that drinking is bad for them, and many of them want to stop, and yet those same people sometimes drink themselves to death.


Again, self control issues vary and different people have different willpower levels...but it does come down to willpower IMO


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 28, 2018)

Dropsonic said:


> Bands like Tool embody and represent the transcendental element of art and expression



The face I made when I read this hyperbole made my wife think I was having a cardiac event.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> The face I made when I read this hyperbole made my wife think I was having a cardiac event.


That should’ve been universal


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## Vyn (Jun 28, 2018)

The event was your bpm going up in something strangely representing a Fibonacci sequence


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## toolsound (Jun 28, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Again, self control issues vary and different people have different willpower levels...but it does come down to willpower IMO



Agreed, but it's a real battle for some people. I had a friend call me on the phone, crying his eyes out, because he was tired of fighting a back and forth battle with alcohol and just wanted to kill himself. 

People can become addicted to anything that triggers the dopamine reward center in the brain and sex is a very strong trigger of that system. I'm guessing you can understand the point I'm making here.


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## Randy (Jun 28, 2018)

Thankfully we don't currently have a Thought Police, so you're welcome to possess any sexual affliction, addiction or perversion you want, free and clear of prosecution but that right is stopped sharply at the point you act on those urges. 

And that doesn't mean sympathy can't or doesn't exist in how something like this is handled but it also doesn't mean a person is freed of all responsibilities for their actions either. The justice system is flawed but one of the better parts of it come from the flexibility of charging (by specific charges or degrees) and sentencing. If someone does something egregious but there's an underlying illness, they're still likely going to jail but the path to correcting the issue will vary based on the individual. 

For example, if someone is convicted of a violent crime and alcohol or drugs were a factor, it's not uncommon for rehabilition being part of their sentencing and restrictions on drugs/alcohol being part of the conditions of their parole. I think justice is frequently not served but that comes down to those dealing it, the laws themselves (for the most part) leave room for measured and appropriate action.

That's to say, we're capable of being both disgusted and sympathetic to a person's situation simultaneously. That's the reason why, in Western countries we don't stone people to death or chop their hands off for minor crimes just because we find them morally detestible.


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## Ziricote (Jun 28, 2018)

I think the story is fabricate


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## Avedas (Jun 28, 2018)

Did it for the Instagram likes/Twitter follows/other imaginary points that don't matter.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 28, 2018)

I say, once you gentlemen have finished the topic, we take whatever democratic conclusion on the matter has been arrived at and forward it to our local congressperson (or equivalent savage representative).


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## Randy (Jun 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> I say, once you gentlemen have finished the topic, we take whatever democratic conclusion on the matter has been arrived at and forward it to our local congressperson (or equivalent savage representative).



Who's to say none of us are Congress people or savages?


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## PunkBillCarson (Jun 28, 2018)

Yeah, I'm sorry. I give far more of a fuck for the victim of said acts than someone who doesn't want to control their own desires. However long it takes to do that to someone is exponentially shorter than the longevity of the person's mental scarring. They know it's wrong when the victim screams at them to stop and they don't care, because they only do what feels good to them. Accusing NateFalcon of bringing emotion into this, well he's got every single fucking right to, because the WHOLE goddamn thing is based around emotions.

There are people out there simply not giving a fuck what they do that harms people. At that point, they lose the right to ANY kind of sympathy. It's one thing if you have those urges. If you are hardwired that way fine, but that doesn't give you any kind of right to hurt someone, especially an innocent child. People know what's right and what's wrong unless they are mentally retarded. If they thought it was right or they didn't know better, they'd go and do it right on the fucking street corner in front of everyone and then be completely baffled when someone beats the fuck out of them or the last look you see on their face is a look of shock just before a bullet ends their existence.

Science it up all you want. It's not going to prevent people from doing it because minority report isn't a thing. For all the studies that have been done and shown (supposedly it's all about power and control) it's not done a goddamn thing. People are still getting molested, people go in prison, get out, sometimes reoffending in the process. And yes, like NateFalcon, I have a set of particular emotional events which affect my bias.

Unlike Nate, however, there would be no swift retribution. I can be just as mentally ill in other ways, and yet if I were to list them here, -I- would be "worse" than the person at hand. I'll just say that I don't believe in a quick bullet to the brain. I'd give them a choice: castration, general population with their offenses announced (for those of you who don't know, many people in prison detest these sick fucks), OR create a new position in the penal system where they serve as punching bags for young aspiring mixed martial artists.

I don't expect many if any of you to agree with any of this. It's my ONLY thought on the subject. Keep trying to understand them all you wish, but all that does is make them believe whether it's true or not that there is a branch of society that has sympathy for them and these lowly creatures who are lower and less useful than pet rocks do not deserve sympathy. Rather, grab those fucking pet rocks and make them more useful.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 28, 2018)

Say what you will about hypothetical rape dignifying bloodlust by way of the former being considered a thought crime while the latter is not, but I *shall not *idly bear witness to this contempt shown toward pet rocks. You are a _punk, _Bill Carson.


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## jwade (Jun 28, 2018)

I’m surprised that this absurdly off-topic conversation was allowed to keep going this long. You guys seem pretty keen on continuing your debate, and you should probably start a dedicated thread in the proper forum for it.


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jun 28, 2018)

This *is* the pet rock subforum, you illiterate!


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## TheRileyOBrien (Jun 28, 2018)

Believe what you want. This "anonymous" post has just as much credibility as the accuser...but to me personally this has more credibility because it is completely in line with what I know from being involved the music industry around that time.


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## TedEH (Jun 28, 2018)

TheRileyOBrien said:


> the music industry around that time


The music industry around that time sounds like a whole other planet to me.


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## lurè (Jun 28, 2018)

It makes me laugh the fact that some people depict Maynard as a trascendental, omniscent entity, when he just had groupies like a "regular" Tommy Lee.


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## lucasreis (Jun 28, 2018)

Who are you to wave your finger?


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## Ataraxia2320 (Jun 28, 2018)

https://smart.gov/SOMAPI/sec1/ch5_recidivism.html

All this talk about rapists being hardwired/being unable to change, and I cant believe not one of ye brought the official statistics into things. 

These are the best statistics on sexual assault/rape recidivism that are out there. 

*"The observed sexual recidivism rates of sex offenders range from about 5 percent after 3 years to about 24 percent after 15 years. "*


So yes, even though these should be seen as lowball estimates, it looks like the majority of sex offenders can do their time and emerge without the need the re offend. 

I understand why people think they shouldnt get a second shot, but not all sex offenders are monsters for life.


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## musicaldeath (Jun 28, 2018)

Andrew Lloyd Webber said:


> The face I made when I read this hyperbole made my wife think I was having a cardiac event.



I agree. Thought there would have been more of this by now.

Not going to lie, this thread did not go how I thought it would.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 28, 2018)

Randy said:


> Thankfully we don't currently have a Thought Police, so you're welcome to possess any sexual affliction, addiction or perversion you want, free and clear of prosecution but that right is stopped sharply at the point you act on those urges.
> 
> And that doesn't mean sympathy can't or doesn't exist in how something like this is handled but it also doesn't mean a person is freed of all responsibilities for their actions either. The justice system is flawed but one of the better parts of it come from the flexibility of charging (by specific charges or degrees) and sentencing. If someone does something egregious but there's an underlying illness, they're still likely going to jail but the path to correcting the issue will vary based on the individual.
> 
> ...



This is, why I think, we will never ever come up with a comprehensive solution.
Similar to murder, there are varying 'degrees' of offense we're talking about here. Even amongst rapists, there are the sadistic fucks that do things that are just indescribable, and there are the sleazeball bro-douches that took advantage of a girl that was blackout drunk at a party. Both are rapists. Both belong in prison, but one clearly has more issues than the other, and it may be a controversial opinion, but I don't believe both should be punished equally. (For the record, both for sure deserve extremely severe punishments, before anyone accuses me of being 'soft' of these guys)

Any form of flexibility, however, is liable to be exploited. This circles back to what Ace and Nate are upset about, the notion that offenders could be offered up a sweeter sentence for 'rehab,' in a similar fashion to how things work currently with numerous other offenses where if you say the right thing and walk the right walk for _*juuuuust*_ enough time, you get off much lighter than you would have otherwise. I don't necessarily agree with the notion that this could realistically be expected to the point where it would be a substantial difference, but I can definitely see where the concern comes from given how prevalent this type of weasel-like behavior is these days.

The sympathy thing is another issue that stands in the way. I refuse to believe that even the most ardent champions for locking these guys up and throwing away the key don't feel at least a little bit of disappointment that a person turned out this way. It's quite possible to feel both, I do it all the time. Just recently when XXXTentacion was robbed, shot, and killed- my first thought is obviously that I hope they catch the offender, put him away, and if he ever gets out that it's in a body bag. But at the same time, it saddens me that someone arrived at that point in their life, that they turned out that way.


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## tedtan (Jun 28, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> Have you not read anything I’ve presented previously?...they re-offend after getting out. The counseling doesn’t work. Period. Unless you mean ‘Clockwork Orange’ style treatment where you torture them into answers...the ‘rehabilitative’ style counseling is just a way to get a couple hours out of their cell while some clueless “social worker” collects a paycheck on my tax money...I have a right (by paying for it) to feel the way I do





NateFalcon said:


> How many times has a counselor given a “success” treatment diagnosis to a convicted rapist or pedophile just to see them re-offend again?...these state payroll counselors and treatment programs’ success rate is in the toilet...seriously



I think this was the misunderstanding.

No one in this thread suggested that rapists should get a lighter sentence for going to rehab, so you are arguing against something we aren't saying.

For what it's worth, I agree that rehab is probably not a viable option for rapists, murderers, etc. as it can be for addicts. Lock them up by all means. But we also (note: in addition to, not instead of) need to learn what makes them tick to prevent as many future rapes as possible. Maybe that means that rapists in the future will be given a choice of life in prison on an island vs. castration. Who knows at this point? And while we'll never eliminate 100% of rapes, we can reduce the number substantially and for every one that is eliminated there is a woman who can avoid going through the ordeal altogether rather than merely hoping for "justice" after the fact.


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## thraxil (Jun 28, 2018)

TheRileyOBrien said:


> Believe what you want. This "anonymous" post has just as much credibility as the accuser...but to me personally this has more credibility because it is completely in line with what I know from being involved the music industry around that time.



I guess I don't really see that anonymous reddit post as totally refuting the accuser. Allowing some room for misremembering details (almost two decades having passed) it seems to me that at least @IWas17HeWas36's story could be basically plausible.

They played a lot of shows in a lot of cities and things get chaotic. Security isn't 100% consistent, mixups happen.

In general, it sounds to me like she got invited backstage and the "usual" process didn't happen (even the anonymous reddit poster claimed to have gotten a harem pass once because they ran out of the normal ones. It couldn't ever happen the other way around?). Ie, she got a regular pass, security didn't ID her for some reason. Maybe she had a fake ID and gave that to security? Or she was close to her 18th birthday, looked older and security just missed it. The "blonde heavyset woman" could've been misremembered or just local venue staff helping out on a particularly crazy night. Basically, she gets back to Maynard without it being clear to her what's going on but he assumes she's one of the regular girls and has been "vetted" and given consent like the hundreds of girls before her so he doesn't bother checking any further because it's routine for him and his mind is on other things. He does what he does; she's too intimidated and confused to stop him, and that's how it goes.

Not trying to excuse anything. Just saying that it does seem like a plausible story to me.


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## Albake21 (Jun 28, 2018)

thraxil said:


> I guess I don't really see that anonymous reddit post as totally refuting the accuser. Allowing some room for misremembering details (almost two decades having passed) it seems to me that at least @IWas17HeWas36's story could be basically plausible.
> 
> They played a lot of shows in a lot of cities and things get chaotic. Security isn't 100% consistent, mixups happen.
> 
> ...


That's the problem with this whole story. Everyone can say what ever they want, but there is no proof anywhere. I will say that the reddit post at least sounds a bit more realistic.


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## tedtan (Jun 28, 2018)

There is no evidence either way beyond her story and whatever story Maynard has, so we’ll never know conclusively one way or the other. 

But to get back to the topic, the girl accusing Maynard states that she was of age of consent at the time, so there is no underage at play here. Then she goes on to state that she sat silently before freezing. So while she didn’t explicitly give consent, she didn’t explicitly object, either. And since she didn’t say “no” or “stop”, didn’t try to push him away or to get away from him, does that imply consent?

Do we need explicit consent for sex to be non-rape? If not, what level of consent is sufficient? Lack of objection? Where do we draw the line?


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## Smoked Porter (Jun 28, 2018)

I dunno. A twitter accusation on one side and a reddit post claiming to refute it on the other aren't much to go on. Maybe it's simplistic, but I wish more people would just wait and see, rather than wanting to give a take right away.


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## Albake21 (Jun 28, 2018)

tedtan said:


> There is no evidence either way beyond her story and whatever story Maynard has, so we’ll never know conclusively one way or the other.
> 
> But to get back to the topic, the girl accusing Maynard states that she was of age of consent at the time, so there is no underage at play here. Then she goes on to state that she sat silently before freezing. So while she didn’t explicitly give consent, she didn’t explicitly object, either. And since she didn’t say “no” or “stop”, didn’t try to push him away or to get away from him, does that imply consent?
> 
> Do we need explicit consent for sex to be non-rape? If not, what level of consent is sufficient? Lack of objection? Where do we draw the line?


Well this is the world we live in now. No one knows anymore what's consent and what isn't. Then you have idiots who beieve that even if you consent, and then you regret it later, it's considered rape...... fucking mind boggling. Society (in the US at least) is so screwed up that guys are too afraid to even talk to women. They are afraid to just say hi to a women.


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## mastapimp (Jun 28, 2018)

Maynard responded a few hours ago on his twitter: "Many thanks to those of you who saw right through this despicable false claim that only does damage to the #metoo movement. And shame on those of you who perpetuate this destructive clickbait. As for my delayed but un-required response, I had my phone off. You should try it."


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 28, 2018)

That's the best his PR team could come up with for him to say in response? Wow.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 28, 2018)

That's such a Maynard response I doubt there was any PR involved


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 28, 2018)

https://twitter.com/MindseedMusic/status/1012241571171848197/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1012241571171848197&ref_url=http://www.metalinjection.net/shocking-revelations/tools-maynard-james-keenan-denies-anonymous-accusation-of-raping-17-year-old-girl-in-2000

the twitter accounts accusing maynard and trent reznor were created within an hour of each other and have nearly the same handle ie Iwas17Hewas36


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## technomancer (Jun 28, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> https://twitter.com/MindseedMusic/status/1012241571171848197/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1012241571171848197&ref_url=http://www.metalinjection.net/shocking-revelations/tools-maynard-james-keenan-denies-anonymous-accusation-of-raping-17-year-old-girl-in-2000
> 
> the twitter accounts accusing maynard and trent reznor were created within an hour of each other and have nearly the same handle ie Iwas17Hewas36



So an anonymous accusation posted on the internet is fiction... shocking

EDIT: it's also a demonstration of the sad state of our society when people expect some grand response to crap like this.


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## Soya (Jun 28, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> That's the best his PR team could come up with for him to say in response? Wow.



Just curious, what would you have preferred him say?


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## Randy (Jun 28, 2018)

Soya said:


> Just curious, what would you have preferred him say?


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## Hollowway (Jun 28, 2018)

Yeah, I can't tell what is a legitimate claim and what isn't, when it's so vague like this. But, I'm sure there are many stories like this that are true. I mean, this exact thing is a common occurrence in colleges (not the statutory part, but the forced sex part). For sure, people need to be aware this stuff occurs, and need to feel comfortable reporting it. I was at a lecture the DA in my area gives to high school students about human trafficking. They said that when Snoop comes around on tour (or with others on tour) he will send a buss around to towns up to an hour away, and offer to bring girls over to hang out with them before the concert. And that can be the beginning of the trafficking, because there are always a few that disappear. I didn't believe it until I heard them talk about the numbers. Not that Snoop was doing it - but they get a load of teenage girls to come out, and then the traffickers and pimps prey on them.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is that there's a lot of uncool stuff done to women in the music industry (as in others) so the take home message should be that we need to be on the lookout to stop this. And that's irrespective of whatever did or did not happen in this case.


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## Hollowway (Jun 28, 2018)

Soya said:


> Just curious, what would you have preferred him say?



Leave the bit out about "had my phone off." I'm sorry, but it's 2018. NO ONE turns their phone off for any substantial period.


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## Randy (Jun 29, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Leave the bit out about "had my phone off." I'm sorry, but it's 2018. NO ONE turns their phone off for any substantial period.


 
Yeah, is the guy responding to sexual assault allegations or is he writing lyrics for Steven Wilson?


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## wat (Jun 29, 2018)

Just gonna throw out my opinions with regards to the discussion so far:

- Rapists & premeditated murderers should just be eliminated from society no questions asked. Life in prison, maybe Capital. Their genes, their influence, etc-- permanently uprooted from the land. I think there is a lot of unnecessary muddying of the waters with regards to how rapists should be treated. They made the choice--fuck em.

That being said, unless damning evidence or a conviction comes out of this I really don't have any strong feelings toward this particular accusation. False accusations of rape are a thing & there has been a push in recent years, largely in the college ultra-feminist looney circles to broaden the definition of rape to more or less include sex where she didn't cum or where they were both wasted & she didn't verbally say "yes I will have intercourse with you"-- even if she more or less jumped on the dick just like she did with some other guy the weekend before. People actually believe this. And it's sad that it's like this because it hurts everyone _except_ those who would level bogus rape allegations. 

If there comes out sufficient evidence for a conviction that he did indeed rape her, I hope justice will be served. But maybe she shouldn't have waited 18 years.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 29, 2018)

I’ve stated my case pretty thoroughly, I’m not going to soften my opinion any further than I have already (for discussion sake)...shit can happen, but the line is pretty clear to the halfway intelligent as far as what’s the drawing line and what isn’t. If it’s confirmed, Arrest them, study their shortcomings while processing them...then throw them into a wood chipper...


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## Soya (Jun 29, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Leave the bit out about "had my phone off." I'm sorry, but it's 2018. NO ONE turns their phone off for any substantial period.



Idk Maynard is pretty goofy, I could totally see him going dark for a week while somehow trying to run a successful business.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Jun 29, 2018)

wat said:


> Just gonna throw out my opinions with regards to the discussion so far:
> 
> - Rapists & premeditated murderers should just be eliminated from society no questions asked. Life in prison, maybe Capital. Their genes, their influence, etc-- permanently uprooted from the land. I think there is a lot of unnecessary muddying of the waters with regards to how rapists should be treated. They made the choice--fuck em.
> 
> ...



I'm with you guys but you have to remember we aren't 100% on point with catching the right guy.
Just your friendly reminder that sometimes we all collectively fuck up and find some innocent sap guilty who was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Same argument that gets brought up whenever someone brings up the death penalty.


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## wat (Jun 29, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I'm with you guys but you have to remember we aren't 100% on point with catching the right guy.
> Just your friendly reminder that sometimes we all collectively fuck up and find some innocent sap guilty who was at the wrong place at the wrong time. Same argument that gets brought up whenever someone brings up the death penalty.



Yep, that's why I'm not 100% gung-ho about the death penalty even though I really _want_ to be, lol.


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## Edika (Jun 29, 2018)

I honestly don't know much about Maynard Keenan, aside from his vocals on Tool. I'm not going to comment on the accusations as they're pretty sketchy. The excerpts from his autobiography and the way he would look for and treat (consenting) groupies makes for a real asshole. Well his whole attitude paints him as an asshole so I guess people love to worship assholes, sorry "troubled artists". FFS.


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## Avedas (Jun 29, 2018)

Randy said:


> or is he writing lyrics for Steven Wilson?


Unfortunately no mention of smashing iPods. Or does Steven Wilson smash iPhones now?


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## Lemonbaby (Jun 29, 2018)

technomancer said:


> EDIT: it's also a demonstration of the sad state of our society when people expect some grand response to crap like this.


Generation Influencer. Tough times when these kids find out that you'll never earn money daddling on your phone and economy doesn't need you if that's the best developed skill you have.



Hollowway said:


> Leave the bit out about "had my phone off." I'm sorry, but it's 2018. NO ONE turns their phone off for any substantial period.


Be careful - some people might think you're serious about this.


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## ArtDecade (Jun 29, 2018)

Maynard has been raping my ears with his crap voice for as long as I can remember.
#methree


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## NateFalcon (Jun 29, 2018)

He’s a weird looking, little asshole who treats his fans like shit and somehow people buy into this mythos that he’s some sort of genius or beacon of...whatever. It speaks more about how sheepish and unintelligent fans can be -it’s just music. His weird outfits and lyrical style don’t impress me to the point of having to acknowledge anything deeper than him being just weird. Self proclaimed geniuses bother me and I honestly lumped him as a piece of shit since the beginning anyway


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## Xaios (Jun 29, 2018)

Randy said:


> Yeah, is the guy responding to sexual assault allegations or is he writing lyrics for Steven Wilson?


Cause he hated every minute he was waiting for her email.


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## GunpointMetal (Jun 29, 2018)

NateFalcon said:


> He’s a weird looking, little asshole who treats his fans like shit and somehow people buy into this mythos that he’s some sort of genius or beacon of...whatever. It speaks more about how sheepish and unintelligent fans can be -it’s just music. His weird outfits and lyrical style don’t impress me to the point of having to acknowledge anything deeper than him being just weird. Self proclaimed geniuses bother me and I honestly lumped him as a piece of shit since the beginning anyway


I dig some TOOL songs, but this was the vibe he ALWAYS gave for me...pretentious douche who is about half as smart as all the fans think he is, and over the years his ego has exceeded his ability by multiples of 100.


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## thraxil (Jun 29, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> I dig some TOOL songs, but this was the vibe he ALWAYS gave for me...pretentious douche who is about half as smart as all the fans think he is, and over the years his ego has exceeded his ability by multiples of 100.



Yeah, I don't think he's a bad vocalist but he's easily the least musically talented member of Tool. I like the band over all, but I've never understood why he gets worshiped so much.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 29, 2018)

thraxil said:


> Yeah, I don't think he's a bad vocalist but he's easily the least musically talented member of Tool.


wrong, that would be adam jones. never have i been so bored watching someone play guitar.


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## Spaced Out Ace (Jun 29, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> wrong, that would be adam jones. never have i been so bored watching someone play guitar.


Adam Jones is very boring. Not nearly as interesting as his cousin Alex.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jun 29, 2018)

Spaced Out Ace said:


> Adam Jones is very boring. Not nearly as interesting as his cousin Alex.


ha he is definitely interesting. I still crack up when I heard him bragging about doing martial arts and how much of a stud he was when he was younger. It was even better when they showed him doing pad work and he looked like a soccer mom learning krav maga.


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## Randy (Jun 29, 2018)

Xaios said:


> Cause he hated every minute he was waiting for her email.



We're talking 2000, so he was mostly likely waiting for a message on ICQ.

'Uh-oh!'


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## Xaios (Jun 29, 2018)

Randy said:


> We're talking 2000, so he was mostly likely waiting for a message on ICQ.
> 
> 'Uh-oh!'


True, although let's not rule out AIM or IRC either.


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## eggy in a bready (Jun 29, 2018)

maynard james keenan is a creepy little troll doll and his wine sucks.

danny carey is the best part of tool.


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## NateFalcon (Jun 30, 2018)

His douchey behavior can also be attributed to cork sniffing


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jul 1, 2018)

I like some Tool, but I'm not sure who's worse, Keenan or his obnoxious fanboys fawning over him as if he's levitating above the rest of us that can't quite grasp his vision.

As far as the rape allegation...who the hell knows.


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## Kidneythief (Jul 2, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> danny carey is the best part of tool.


And Justin Chancellor <3

I'm not sure what to think, I'm sort-of a Tool-fanboy, but Maynards behaviour has always been a bit "too weird" for me.
But seeing as at the same time two seperate anonymus twitter accounts were created, one bashing Maynard, the other Trent Reznor from NiN. Just too weird of a coincidence...


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## Andrew Lloyd Webber (Jul 2, 2018)

That’s one way to determine guilt.


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