# making drum tracks



## Digital Black (May 28, 2005)

I need advice for making more than just 1 rhythem and 1 fill tracks. While I have Excellent timing,using a program top plot out drums is very aggravating. What do you guys use and what tips do you have?


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## a_daft_punk (May 28, 2005)

Gotta be honest with you, I go with the super boring point and click method, drawing MIDI tracks into Pro Tools.

What I'm really after is a Roland TD-3 Kit though, MIDI drums are awesome (fantastic for editing).

Hope this helps

Joe


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## eleven59 (May 28, 2005)

Yeah, short of getting a midi drum kit or midi keyboard of some kind, you're stuck with the point-and-click method. Start with something simple, and they start trying to find ways to fuck it up  And velocities are important if you want things to sound real, think about the way a real drummer plays (what they can and can't do, and what they do naturally) and it'll make things easier. I like to air-drum out the parts before/while I punch them in


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## Digital Black (May 28, 2005)

so,explane midi drums more.Do you have to play them in time on the keys or will it pull the hits together for you when it play the comlpeted drum track.


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## eleven59 (May 28, 2005)

Sephiroth000 said:


> so,explane midi drums more.Do you have to play them in time on the keys or will it pull the hits together for you when it play the comlpeted drum track.


Well, if you're using a midi keyboard/kit you can do it a few ways:

1) Play along to a click so that it goes along to the time signature.

2) Play along to a click, but also have "quantize" turned on so that it automatically lines it up to the nearest beat, half-beat, etc. whatever you choose

3) Play it in "step" mode, where each hit you punch in is equal in length, and you can put it in one beat at a time at your own pace (doesn't have to sound right while playing it in). 

I prefer the first way, and then editing it manually (since no real drummer places exactly on the beat).


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## Digital Black (May 28, 2005)

So what is a decent setup to use midi drums? Program and midi keyboard?


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## Leon (May 29, 2005)

i run Hydrogen under Linux. it's free and on the sourceforge.

i'm starting to get the hang of it, so other than pimping it, i'm not much help


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## Vince (May 30, 2005)

You know what I do? I hook up the drum machine and I begin by setting the tempo and the sounds I want to use. Usually I use sounds in Reason, triggered through MIDI off of the drum machine, sometimes though I use the sounds on the drum machine, just direct into the mixing board.

Anyway, I begin by setting the pattern, whether it be 4, 8, or 16 beats in the pattern (or 5, 7, 11, 15, depending on how prog I'm going with the part, of course!).

Next, I'll sit there, to the click track and with my left hand I'll play the bass drum, with my right hand I'll play the snare. Once I have the basics of the track down (the snare & bass drum), I'll begin putting in the other elements, whether that be hi-hat, ride, tambourine, toms, cymbals, etc. Sometimes I'll save all that for later and put them in one by one into the multi-tracker just so I can get them all on different tracks. It's tedious that, way, but then you have ultimate control.

I probably spent 10x the amount of time putting drum tracks down on my album than I did actually playing guitar


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

Haha, drums are a bitch, eh? 

I used to just use loops, but that gets limiting after a while, so then I started sequencing my own loops in Fruity Loops, with a good set of samples. But, after a while, the static-ness got old, too, so here's what I've been doing lately. 

first, I'll make myself a "scratch track" drum loop with kick, snare, and hi-hats. I'll mix this down to a stereo wav and use this as a click while recording. 

Then, I'll save each component of that scratch track to an individual track, so I've got a track of kick, a track of snare, and a track of hi-hats. After I record all the guitars and bass, I'll replace the scratch track with these loops.

Next, I'll paste in crash and ride cymbols, hit by hit. They don't sound natural looped, for some reason, so this works quite a bit better. 

This will give me a rough but useable drum track. From here, I start cutting and pasting and offsetting various components to do fills - I might drop a kick hit here and there, offset the cymbols, double up the snare, whatever. This gives a lot more variation with only minimally more effort than using straight loops. 

As an aside, it also gives you a LOT more room to mix with, as you can EQ each peice of the kit individually. I love the sound of a big rumbly snare, but with a five string bass and a seven string guitar, unless you're playing something fairly sparse that's not going to cut it, so a lot of the time I'll go for a sharper, more percussive kick, running it through a compressor set for a slow attack and heavy compression to squelch down all but the initial attack, and then rolling off the bass a bit with an EQ. I grabbed this from Devin Townsend - like I said, I like more of a big, rumbly old-school drum sound, myself (think the intro to Satch's "Friends," I love that drum sound), but that can give you low end mud VERY fast on heavier stuff if you're not careful, and as a guitarist I'll always err on the side of a massive guitar tone.  

Anyway, by "sculpting" the EQ around each peice of your kit, you can emphasize the frequencies that make each bit cut out in the mix, while leaving lots of open space for your bass and guitars. 

Sorry, slightly off topic at the end there. 

-D

(as a good rule of thumb, though, Devin Townsend albums make GREAT reference mixes. That man's a f'in genius.)


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## Mind Riot (May 30, 2005)

I do mine with this:






Through a Roland TD-6 module.

I don't want to ruffle anyone's feathers, but I hate sequenced and MIDI drums. I don't mind e-drums (obviously) because it's still someone playing the instrument. As a drummer, the MIDI stuff bugs me. 

I mean, as a bunch of guitarists, how seriously would you guys take an album that had real drums and computers playing guitar? Even if the guitars had been carefully sequenced by a real person who couldn't play a real guitar? Wouldn't you laugh at it and say that they should just learn to play the instrument? 

There's so much concern about the 'feel' of guitar playing and it's artistic integrity is so jealously guarded, yet there seems to be no such respect for drums. It's as though people are saying that guitar is important and must be played for real and by a real person with feeling, but computerized fake drums are fine. Personally, I find it offensive.

That being said, I understand that not everyone has access to drums or a drummer, and that if you want to write and record your stuff, you gotta do what you gotta do. And I respect everyone doing that and writing their own drum parts, even if they don't play them, but I do think there's a double standard there. MIDI and sequenced drums are accepted, whereas if fake guitar along the same lines came out it would be hated and ridiculed.

Mmmmmm'kay. Rant over.


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## Drew (May 30, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> That being said, I understand that not everyone has access to drums or a drummer, and that if you want to write and record your stuff, you gotta do what you gotta do.



Yeah, that's really the problem. You give me a good acoustic room that I can record live drums in, enough mics to do the job properly, and a good drummer who I saw creatively eye to eye with, and I'd be ALL over a live kit, because really, there's no match. but the sad reality is tha's not going to happen for a long time, so I've got to make do. 

I see it more like using a Pod instead of an amp, from my perspective - it works in a bedroom, but is no match for the real thing. 

That said, on occasion the drum machine "sound" happens to be the right one for the mix, but I happen to screw around in more of a trance/trip-hop vein than a lot of you guys, so maybe it's a non issue for most of you. 

-D


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## BCrowell (May 30, 2005)

Yeah, nothing beats a real kit. 

If it's an easy-intermediate level rythym I always play & record it on my own set.






Some beats, however, are beyond my current ability. Thus I will sit with some MIDI program, and write the beats in notation. I will play this through battery, that contains samples from my own kit, or some other kit. RECENTLY HOWEVER, I got to use BFD, that hands down, ROCKS and sounds more realistic than ANYTHING I've EVER heard. It has tons of mic placements, and 32+ levels of volume samples per hit per drum so that volume changes aren't from the same sample and thus dynamicly true. Anyway...I plan to re-record any MIDI/Battery drums with that program... Be sure to check it out!!


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## Digital Black (May 30, 2005)

I have an alesis sr-16(?).Donna know if I really want to invest the time in how to use it to it's full extent; seeing that it's quite old.


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## eleven59 (May 31, 2005)

I keep eyeing the Roland V-Drums because, while I love recording live drums, for home use they'd be amazing. Especially when using a decent set of samples (again, I must mention NS_Kit).


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## Mind Riot (May 31, 2005)

Drew said:


> Yeah, that's really the problem. You give me a good acoustic room that I can record live drums in, enough mics to do the job properly, and a good drummer who I saw creatively eye to eye with, and I'd be ALL over a live kit, because really, there's no match. but the sad reality is tha's not going to happen for a long time, so I've got to make do.
> 
> I see it more like using a Pod instead of an amp, from my perspective - it works in a bedroom, but is no match for the real thing.
> 
> ...



But with a POD you're still playing the instrument yourself. Just like with an E-drum set, you're still playing it. You're just running it through some post processing. Whereas with MIDI drums, you write it out and the computer plays it for you. 

You put me with a real tube amp and I can play anything that I can with a POD. Put me behind an acoustic drum set and I can play anything that I can play on e-drums. The sound will be different, but it's still ME doing the playing. It's the complete removal of the human element from the actual playing of the instrument that bugs me. I don't mind all the modeling and post processing and effects, but when a computer plays the instrument for you I think that it's gone too far and that one can no longer really take credit for it. 

It's perfectly valid to me as an art form in itself, as in using drum samples for effect or to do something humanly impossible. But trying to use it to replace a real musician on the drums simply because one can't find a drummer or doesn't want to learn to play drums is a different story. As I said, I respect that everyone has to do what they have to do if they don't have access to everything they need, but I still strongly feel that if the tables were turned and it was the guitar parts that were MIDI, that guitarists would laugh at it and hate it, or at the very least not take it seriously. Whereas with drums it's totally acceptable. 

It just bugs me that there is such a double standard. If there were MIDI guitar playing programs and someone posted a song with them on it, all the guitarists would say "Why don't you just learn to play a real guitar?" But there's these fake computer drums all over the place and nobody seems to care about protecting the artistic integrity of the drums as an instrument like they do with their precious guitars.

Maybe it's where I've come from as a musician that makes me feel this way. My last band I was in for six years and it ended badly. I made up my mind when it was over that I was going to get all my playing skills up to the level needed to write and record my own stuff. I didn't want to need anyone else to do my stuff because of how badly things had gone before. So for the last five years or so, I've been slowly building my home studio with what money I could scrape together and trying to get my playing skills up to par to record my stuff. 

So here I've worked my ass off for a decade or so to be able to play all these instruments well and then some technology comes along that lets guitarists make fake drum tracks and everyone seems to say "It's just as good, or at least it's good enough!" How would you feel, as a guitarist, if you worked for literally years learning to play and then some technology comes along that can simulate a player and everyone around you is saying it's just as good as you are, or at least it's good enough, and you are no longer necessary?

And just so this post isn't too dead serious, here's a picture of a cat playing guitar.


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## eleven59 (May 31, 2005)

I've actually heard someone do a fully MIDI-programmed version of Eruption that didn't sound terrible  

The problem with finding a real drummer is that a lot of people can't. Drums are a hard instrument to play well, and you have to play it well if you're recording/playing with others or the whole song suffers. It took my band a good 4-ish years to find a drummer. 

And then they've gotta have good gear, because shitty drums sound shitty recorded too (and I've heard some shitty drums, one guy used an entire box of kleenex and a roll of tape on his snare drum because he liked how it sounded that way...) and a lot of drummers I know won't play electric drums.


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## Allen Garrow (May 31, 2005)

Alesis SR-16. It has great sound for the price and gives you alot of control. I've even made my own complex patterns by using the Pressure sensitive drum pads then "quantize" and it came out descent. For me that was a pretty big accomplishment,,,cuz I have little no patience for somethings, and drum machine are sort of in Greek to me. Where it came close to being thrown across the room ( i.e. UV777GR w/ Hi E issues for any of those who followed a rant from the Jemsite ) a few time but never went airborn.

~A


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## Allen Garrow (May 31, 2005)

True,,,, tell you what I only drum machines cuz I have no access to real drummers. I personally prefer to work with a real drummer. It took me years to even buy a drum machine,,,but I have found the drum machine as a great tool for practicing and getting ideas down in the middle of the night when the nieghbors would be less understanding of my actually drum needs....lol.

~A


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## Allen Garrow (May 31, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> But with a POD you're still playing the instrument yourself. Just like with an E-drum set, you're still playing it. You're just running it through some post processing. Whereas with MIDI drums, you write it out and the computer plays it for you.
> 
> You put me with a real tube amp and I can play anything that I can with a POD. Put me behind an acoustic drum set and I can play anything that I can play on e-drums. The sound will be different, but it's still ME doing the playing. It's the complete removal of the human element from the actual playing of the instrument that bugs me. I don't mind all the modeling and post processing and effects, but when a computer plays the instrument for you I think that it's gone too far and that one can no longer really take credit for it.
> 
> ...



Dude!  what the hell? better yet,,how the hell?  is that a dead cat you posed? That's just not natural,,,,funny as hell,,,but not right all at the same time......


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## BCrowell (May 31, 2005)

I do agree that it does remove some of the artistry by using MIDI, but if your writting the music, then it's not so bad in my book. Even if you have a real guy come in and play the drum music you wrote, isn't that somewhat untrue? I mean the drummer didn't write it, you did. If your using a good sample program (made from a real drummer) and input via MIDI, isn't that the same thing? It's all on a fine line...

If you think there aren't people using MIDI to lay down guitars, your dead wrong. There are plenty of programs that are DAMN close on generating ear fooling guitar sounds. I can't recal what one of the best is, but when I heard it, I couldn't believe it was a MIDI based program. If they don't use something like that, there's tons of guitar samples and loops to. So don't think we're excluded.


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## Mind Riot (May 31, 2005)

Allen Garrow said:


> Dude!  what the hell? better yet,,how the hell?  is that a dead cat you posed? That's just not natural,,,,funny as hell,,,but not right all at the same time......



A friend of mine sent it to me. It's a photoshop deal. The cat yawned and it's paws were positioned just right so then someone put a guitar in there.


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## Mind Riot (May 31, 2005)

BCrowell said:


> I do agree that it does remove some of the artistry by using MIDI, but if your writting the music, then it's not so bad in my book. Even if you have a real guy come in and play the drum music you wrote, isn't that somewhat untrue? I mean the drummer didn't write it, you did. If your using a good sample program (made from a real drummer) and input via MIDI, isn't that the same thing? It's all on a fine line...
> 
> If you think there aren't people using MIDI to lay down guitars, your dead wrong. There are plenty of programs that are DAMN close on generating ear fooling guitar sounds. I can't recal what one of the best is, but when I heard it, I couldn't believe it was a MIDI based program. If they don't use something like that, there's tons of guitar samples and loops to. So don't think we're excluded.



But how seriously do guitarists take music made with guitar simulation technology? Is it regarded as anything more than a novelty, a showcase for the state of the art? If it is, I have underestimated the openmindedness of guitarists. 

In my opinion, playing with a brought in drummer and MIDI drums are not the same at all. If you bring in someone to play drums on your stuff, it's a collaboration. Two people coming together to create something. If you use fake computer drums because you can't play them yourself and refuse to learn and can't find a drummer, it honestly seems like a copout to me. BUT, as I said, if someone is totally stuck then you do what you gotta do. 

It just seems lazy and sell out to me. I needed drums for my stuff. What did I do? I learned to play drums. You can get a cheap set to sound decent, I certainly did with a crappy beat to hell Tama Rockstar set from the seventies that had been through all kinds of abuse and a serious housefire. Then I got married and moved into an apartment, where I couldn't use acoustic drums. What did I do? I BUILT my electronic set out of my old Tamas. It doesn't have to be expensive, if you build it yourself you can do it dirt cheap. The whole conversion of my set cost me about $300, with mesh heads, triggers, cables, new hardware and cymbal stands, practice cymbals for conversion, and all the electronic components needed to do it. The money is in the module, but even then you can get a used Alesis DM5 which is a very decent module for $150 on ebay.

I respect everyone's view, and like I said if you're stuck you do what you gotta do, but I think MIDI drums are lame ass. We view it as important to learn to play the guitar as well as we can so we can express ourselves. If you can't play a guitar part, you practice until you can. If you can't play drums, no problem! We have a program that can fake it for you! Why are we learning to play instruments at all if we just give up and let a computer do it for us when we run into something we can't do yet? 

I needed drums for my music. So I learned to play drums. I worked hard at it for many years to be just as much of a drummer as I am a guitarist and bassist. I learned, practiced, sweated, and built my own freaking electronic drum set all so I could have drums on my recordings with the human elements of skill and passion intact. To me, fake drums played by a computer are a LAME ASS LAZY COP OUT way to make music.

Just my opinion, I don't want to disrespect anyone's artistic vision. But it seems pretty stupid and lame to me to spend ludicrous amounts of time and money getting your guitar sound just right, with the right guitar, pickups, amp, effects, recording setup, and skill and then leave the drums as nothing more than an afterthought, programmed into and played by a souless computer as though the elements of human skill and feeling are only necessary on the almighty guitar.


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## Drew (May 31, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> If you use fake computer drums because you can't play them yourself and refuse to learn and can't find a drummer, it honestly seems like a copout to me.
> 
> I needed drums for my music. So I learned to play drums. I worked hard at it for many years to be just as much of a drummer as I am a guitarist and bassist. I learned, practiced, sweated, and built my own freaking electronic drum set all so I could have drums on my recordings with the human elements of skill and passion intact. To me, fake drums played by a computer are a LAME ASS LAZY COP OUT way to make music.



No Soul, while I agree with your basic premis, that real drums are much better than a drum synth/drum machine, I think the above statements are a bit strong, bro. Yeah, real drums will blow away a synth for almost every application. 

But, at the same time, calling it a "LAME ASS LAZY COP OUT" not to spend a couple years and a few hundred bucks to learn an instrument... I mean, I write guitar music because I love the guitar, not because I wanted an excuse to learn how to play drums, you know? If I knew a drummer with an electric kit, well, I'd still demo with drum synth composed loops, but I';d go with the real drummer for "serious" recording. But it's not feasible for me to do that, working in my bedroom, and on a budget that just supports my guitar habit. 

Like I said, I agree with you in principle, I just think that's a little strong... (although, yes, I'd love to learn how to play drums and have an environment I could record in)

-D


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## Shawn (May 31, 2005)

I like using the drum machine because it creates a wide open space for guitars.
This approach of course is very stabile for my type of instrumental guitar/keyboard music. 
I can kick a beat or two and like the sound of real acoustic drums mic'd up,
but dont own a drumkit. So thats why I use a drum machine.

My drum machine is so outdated though. So i've been using a program called Hammerhead.

Lately my friend has downloaded some great drum machine programs and I like them.

And yes, those words were a little harsh even though I can be very lazy at times.


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## Vegetta (May 31, 2005)

I use Crappy ol garage band [point & click] with some eq tweaking you can get decent sounding drums... I know this sounds kind of corny but when making drum tracks think like a 

drummer keep the beat regular then build upon that by adding fills and what i call accents

I usually start wwith a click track then build my bass drum first then I add snare and high hats then fills and cymbals


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## BCrowell (Jun 1, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> In my opinion, playing with a brought in drummer and MIDI drums are not the same at all. If you bring in someone to play drums on your stuff, it's a collaboration. Two people coming together to create something.



What I meant in my example was : If *I* wrote a drum part, in which I *PAID* a session drummer to play, versus that part in MIDI feed through Battery with my OWN DRUMS sampled, then what's the difference? One is far cheaper than the other, and I haven't COPd ANYONE or ANY SAMPLE. THERE IS NO COLLABORATION HERE! I wrote the drums, they got paid to play the part...no variation, nada...just shutup and play this. 

I agree that in general there's no replacement, recal I learned drums for the same reason... I however, can create and write drum music far more complex than my intermediate ability OR SET allows (IE I have no double bass pedal, or tons of cymbols, cow bells, etc..). It's no less true and certainly not COPd.

With my MIDI, adding carefull time variances, I can get nearly the same deal, maybe with less dynamic. I'm not putting some drummer out on the street cause I'm doing this. Those who are signed, etc, already have the means to use a real drummer... Check out Linkin Park...25% their drums are samples on the records, and THEY HAVE a real drummer!

People do what they have to to get their music out there. There are people doing the same thing with guitar... I don't let it get to me, as I'm doing my own thing, and take pride that I play everything myself when I can.


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## keithb (Jun 1, 2005)

Mind Riot - although I agree in principle, if I want an orchestra hit in my song, should I go learn to play classical strings, brass, woodwind and percussion, as well as spending thousands of dollars on instruments? Or should I just pick up a sampled orchestra hit? Oversimplified I know, but...

I've never heard any synthesized or sequenced guitar that sounds as much like a real guitar as well-sequenced sampled drums sound like real drums. Can you point to any examples?

I guess what I'm saying is that maybe the reason you don't see sampled guitar around is because noone is doing it, not because it wouldn't sound good or would somehow take away from the artistry of the music.


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## Drew (Jun 1, 2005)

As an aside, that cat's the coolest thing ever.


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## BCrowell (Jun 1, 2005)

keithb said:


> I've never heard any synthesized or sequenced guitar that sounds as much like a real guitar as well-sequenced sampled drums sound like real drums. Can you point to any examples?



Prepared to be amazed... Here's a couple sound samples for you. All these guitars done via MIDI. I'm a fan of Pete's work, so here are a couple of his: 

Peter Gorges -Heaven & Hell 

How 'bout some WAH guitar!?
Disco 77 

WireBird -The Meridian Song 

Now, a real guitar player MAY tell the difference in the transitions, but most non-guitarists wouldn't be able to tell...


Oh, and BTW, this software is from Steinburg "Virtual Guitarist", and can be picked up for under 300$.


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## keithb (Jun 1, 2005)

BCrowell said:


> Prepared to be amazed... Here's a couple sound samples for you. All these guitars done via MIDI. I'm a fan of Pete's work, so here are a couple of his:
> 
> Peter Gorges -Heaven & Hell
> 
> ...




Now THAT is what I'm talkin about.  

If a drummer who didn't play guitar and didn't have a guitar or amp used that plugin to write something that sounded like those demos, I would be impressed, not upset that he didn't actually play it


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## Shawn (Jun 1, 2005)

I love MIDI.


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## Digital Black (Jun 1, 2005)

I'm a guitarist, not a drummer.
I could care how drum tracks made ( real vs. midi) as long as it sounds good and fits the purpose.
Not everybody has the money , and time to learn and master a completly different instrament just to utilize the first.

When you bake cookies do you sow your own wheat field also? No, you use premanufactured ingredients...
It would be different if I was programming out the complete song-but the fact that i have to play the leads, rhythem, and bass isn't going to make me feel "less of a musician" becasue my drums aren't live...


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

As I have said about a dozen times, I respect everyone's view. And I'm not trying to ruffle feathers. But my feelings on the situation are unchanged. 

I respect that you have to do what you have to do to get your music done. I respect that not everyone has access to a drummer to accomplish their music. I respect that some choose to use MIDI drums even if they could use real ones. That is their choice, and I'm not going to deride them for it. 

But personally, I hate the things. They seem to me the very antithesis of what music is all about: skill, dedication, work, beauty, feeling, passion, execution. 

A few people have said that they don't have the time or money to learn a whole new instrument just so they can have drums on their songs. With all respect, that's my point. You certainly took the time and money to learn to play guitar, why are drums treated with less reverence? For your precious guitar tracks, you will work and slave, getting just the right tone with just the right gear, obsessing over strings, tubes, picks, any number of things. You gladly do this in the service of your craft, because to you, your instrument is worth it, and the music you can create is worth it. 

When it comes to drum tracks, I feel the same way. I write them out or improvise them, depending on what the song calls for. I carefully select my sounds to fit the piece, and I play it with as much feeling and passion as I can muster, and often do several or even dozens of takes over many days before I feel it is right, and good enough. I do this, and drummers do this, in the service of their instrument, because they feel that it, and the music they can create with it, are worth it. 

But to many of you apparently, and to many guitarists out there, drums are NOT worth it. They are NOT worth learning, striving, working, and playing at with passion like your precious guitars. 

And that's perhaps really what I find so offensive. I'm not a guitarist. I humbly call myself a multi-instrumentalist. I play guitar, bass guitar, and drums about equally well, and working at them, giving them their due, and actually PLAYING them myself is just as important to me on one as it is on the other. My music is (I hope) a uniting of all three and my voice, guitar, bass, drums and vocals all working together, playing off each other, to create music. It's not a Mighty Guitar Track of the Gods with barely audible bass and fake computer played drums muttering behind it. To me, the guitar is not the only instrument worthy of learning, and learning well. 

You don't have to agree with me. You can think I'm old fashioned or crazy. But I feel that one of the most important things in music is the journey itself. I play with feeling in large part because I've had to work my ass off to be able to play at all. If I just use a computer to play a crass, souless version of something because I don't want to develop the skill to play it myself, why did I pick up the instrument in the first place? Why did I take up MUSIC in the first place? What accomplishment is there in music if you don't actually ACCOMPLISH anything yourself? 

In any case, I think I've made my views and the reasons why I hold them fairly clear. I don't want to make anyone mad, and again I respect everyone's view. I certainly don't want to start a big e-fight.

Bottom line: make your music, make music that moves you, that makes you happy, any way you can.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

BCrowell said:


> What I meant in my example was : If *I* wrote a drum part, in which I *PAID* a session drummer to play, versus that part in MIDI feed through Battery with my OWN DRUMS sampled, then what's the difference? One is far cheaper than the other, and I haven't COPd ANYONE or ANY SAMPLE. THERE IS NO COLLABORATION HERE! I wrote the drums, they got paid to play the part...no variation, nada...just shutup and play this.



I understood what your example was. And yes, there is a collaboration. The very definition of the word is simply "to work together, especially in an artistic or literary sense", paraphrased from my dictionary. Even if you had an outside drummer play exactly what you wrote, no variation, you are still reaping the benefits of his years of playing and learning. There is a human being playing those drums, even if he's playing exactly what he's told. It's two people coming together to make music. One of them may have written it, but they both bring it to life with their skills. With MIDI, you are substituting a soulless computer for a human being with passion, feeling, and skill. 



BCrowell said:


> I agree that in general there's no replacement, recal I learned drums for the same reason... I however, can create and write drum music far more complex than my intermediate ability OR SET allows (IE I have no double bass pedal, or tons of cymbols, cow bells, etc..). It's no less true and certainly not COPd.



Is it really 'no less true'? If you were to write out an amazing guitar solo in notation that you couldn't play, that was beyond your intermediate abilities, and then had a computer play it for you so you could record it to your song would you really expect anyone to marvel at your mad skilled guitar badassitude? You wrote something out that you couldn't actually play and you let something else play it for you. Where's the accomplishment? You certainly wrote it, and you would most definitely deserve credit for that, but you would just as certainly not deserve credit for playing it, don't you think? 

Unless we're now going to say that it's okay with drums but not guitar, which is a big part of my whole point anyway.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

Drew said:


> No Soul, while I agree with your basic premis, that real drums are much better than a drum synth/drum machine, I think the above statements are a bit strong, bro. Yeah, real drums will blow away a synth for almost every application.



I'm Mind Riot. No Soul is someone else, and I'm sure he doesn't want people thinking he's me. 



Drew said:


> But, at the same time, calling it a "LAME ASS LAZY COP OUT" not to spend a couple years and a few hundred bucks to learn an instrument... I mean, I write guitar music because I love the guitar, not because I wanted an excuse to learn how to play drums, you know?
> 
> -D



But if you only write guitar music, why are there drums in it? That would make it guitar and DRUM music, right? 

And if it's guitar and DRUM music, why are the guitars represented by the best you can muster in playing with feeling, great tone, and passion and the drums only are represented by a computers' fake imitation of playing?

That's kind of what I'm getting at. If the music is going to have drums in it, I, as a drummer, find it bothersome that they are not deemed to be important enough to be as well represented as the guitar. 

But I totally understand what you're saying. You shouldn't have to learn every instrument to make music, but what bothers me is the way so many seem to cast aside the importance of drums and other instruments while dwelling obsessively on their Almighty Guitars. Guitarists have a real tendency to be egocentric about their instrument, and I personally find that highly distasteful. 

And yes, the guitar playing cat is really cool. A friend of mine sent it to me, and I cackled wildly for about ten minutes when I first saw it. Something about the look on it's face, I can just picture it doing a massive bend or a dive bomb on the tremelo.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

keithb said:


> Mind Riot - although I agree in principle, if I want an orchestra hit in my song, should I go learn to play classical strings, brass, woodwind and percussion, as well as spending thousands of dollars on instruments? Or should I just pick up a sampled orchestra hit? Oversimplified I know, but...



Well actually, if you were still playing a keyboard to do it it wouldn't really bother me as much. You see you're still PLAYING an instrument. You're playing the keys, the orchestral sound is, strictly speaking, an effect. But a sample, or programmed thing would bug me the same. 

You'll probably think I'm crazy, but I decided a while back not to use orchestral synth stuff in my music for similar reasons I dislike MIDI drums. If I can't play it, I kind of felt like it was a slap in the face to all those who had spent so much time and effort and money learning to play in those orchestras. It felt like it cheapened it somehow. 

But to be honest, it's never come up for me. I play guitar, bass, drums, and a bit of piano. I also sing. So I write music for guitar, bass, drums, piano, and voice. I am so far from even touching the boundaries of possibility for these instruments that I don't see myself running into walls like that.

I mean, honestly, how often does something like that come up? I'm not going to write music for the harp if I don't play the harp or have access to someone who can. "Damn, I wrote this great mandola part but I've never played one and don't know anyone who has!"  And if everyone is spending all their time writing music for instruments they don't play and don't have access to people that do, then they've really kind of crossed into the realm of low budget composers and out of the realm of rock musicians and players, haven't they?


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## Drew (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> But if you only write guitar music, why are there drums in it? That would make it guitar and DRUM music, right?



That's a total reducto ad absurdum argument, Mind Riot/No Soul/Whoeverthehellyouare  At what point do you draw the line? For me, when I write a song, the drums aren't the focus of the music. They add something, true, and realistically thjey're such an entrenched part of rock music that they have to be there, or the music wouldn't sound the same without them. However, they play a supporting role to the songs I write. I would prefer real drums, true, but it's not feasible. And honestly, I think taking "you must play all the instruments on your songs" that far is kinda absurd - I mean, I'm not Prince, you know? I just do this because it's fun, and writing without drums, or having to wait until I could get a drummer to record me some stuff would make playing music a LOT less fun. 

And for me, that's what this is about, at the end of the day - fun. 

-D


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## keithb (Jun 7, 2005)

Drew said:


> That's a total reducto ad absurdum argument, Mind Riot/No Soul/Whoeverthehellyouare  At what point do you draw the line? For me, when I write a song, the drums aren't the focus of the music. They add something, true, and realistically thjey're such an entrenched part of rock music that they have to be there, or the music wouldn't sound the same without them. However, they play a supporting role to the songs I write. I would prefer real drums, true, but it's not feasible. And honestly, I think taking "you must play all the instruments on your songs" that far is kinda absurd - I mean, I'm not Prince, you know? I just do this because it's fun, and writing without drums, or having to wait until I could get a drummer to record me some stuff would make playing music a LOT less fun.
> 
> And for me, that's what this is about, at the end of the day - fun.
> 
> -D



:applause:


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## BCrowell (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> Is it really 'no less true'? If you were to write out an amazing guitar solo in notation that you couldn't play, that was beyond your intermediate abilities, and then had a computer play it for you so you could record it to your song would you really expect anyone to marvel at your mad skilled guitar badassitude? You wrote something out that you couldn't actually play and you let something else play it for you. Where's the accomplishment? You certainly wrote it, and you would most definitely deserve credit for that, but you would just as certainly not deserve credit for playing it, don't you think?



I understand & would be equally upset if people passed sequenced stuff off as them playing. I would NEVER try and pass off "yeah I play that part" if it was MIDI. I would NEVER try and unjustly earn praise. I would simply write, take your example, "Guitar sequencing by B. Crowell". I WOULD NOT SAY I PLAYED IT.

You seem to dis the accomplishment of writing itself. I feel WRITERS don't get proper WOOT they deserve. Whilst WRITERS may be guilty of Sequencing, PLAYERS are guilty of USING others composition. So whose more guilty!? In my book they both are, and thus one fault is no better than the other.

To me the player & WRITER are EQUALLY important, and thus deverse the respect. 

Example:
TONS of VOCALISTS, sit there and sing songs OTHERS wrote EVERYDAY, and get rich...sure the writers get their cut, but RARELY get the PUBLIC RESPECT or NOTORIATY. Is that any more right! I THINK NOT! Most vocalist cant write music for CRAP. Desmond Child is one of the few, very few, well respected & known writers, as is a rare exception to reality. He's written songs for Bon Jovi for instance...now you listen to their tune "Wanted Dead or Alive" and go YEAH man...Bon Jovi kicks ass...not even realizing it wouldn't have been such a hit without Desmonds lyrical writing skills.

IMHO people should only be allowed to make money of music THEY WROTE, and THEY PLAYED. 

So to conclude, writers are guilty for using sequences instead of players skills, and players are guilty for using composition skills of someone else. That's the way the industry is.

OH and BTW, my tune "Inside You" on my site... I play the Keys, Drums, guitars, bass, and I do the singing....and yes I wrote the tune. SO I DO practice what I preach...nuff said...


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## Metal Ken (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> But to many of you apparently, and to many guitarists out there, drums are NOT worth it. They are NOT worth learning, striving, working, and playing at with passion like your precious guitars.
> 
> And that's perhaps really what I find so offensive. I'm not a guitarist. I humbly call myself a multi-instrumentalist. I play guitar, bass guitar, and drums about equally well, and working at them, giving them their due, and actually PLAYING them myself is just as important to me on one as it is on the other. My music is (I hope) a uniting of all three and my voice, guitar, bass, drums and vocals all working together, playing off each other, to create music. It's not a Mighty Guitar Track of the Gods with barely audible bass and fake computer played drums muttering behind it. To me, the guitar is not the only instrument worthy of learning, and learning well.
> 
> You don't have to agree with me. You can think I'm old fashioned or crazy. But I feel that one of the most important things in music is the journey itself. I play with feeling in large part because I've had to work my ass off to be able to play at all. If I just use a computer to play a crass, souless version of something because I don't want to develop the skill to play it myself, why did I pick up the instrument in the first place? Why did I take up MUSIC in the first place? What accomplishment is there in music if you don't actually ACCOMPLISH anything yourself?


Not trying to fight... but here's my reasoning:
I want to be the best guitar player i can be. Learning other instruments will take away from that. i dont want to be average at a bunch of things (not saying you are) but i want to be really got at one or two things. Any time i practice drums or bass or somethin, i could be practicing guitar. That said, i am learning how to program my drum machine and i am an average bass player(and will stay an average bass player for a long time)


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## Drew (Jun 7, 2005)

I agree with you 95% there HB'er - learning bass (or trying, lol) has definitely strengthened some areas of my guitar playing, and I could see learning drums would also have some advantages, although to a lesser extent as they are both very physically different instruments. 

However, to learn how to play the drums to the extent I'd want to be able to would take a TREMENDOUS effort (I'm a huge danny carey (tool) fan, and that man's grasp of polyrhythm is absurd), and most of that effort would have only limited applicability to guitar, because aside from certain rhythmic elements, guitar technique and drum technique both very different. 

So while I don't doubt that it would help me grow in certain areas, I also believe that the amount of time it'd require to learn how to play the drums at an extent I would with would be better served practicing guitar, as that's where my heart is. Yes, i'd be fun... But I don't think I could play the drum parts I'd want to, and given the choice between mediocre live drums and accurate sequenced drums, I'll take the sequencer and focus on the instrument I care about. 

I mean, when you see a band, you don't expect one guy to do everything, right? The whole point of being a musician is we all specialize on one instrument. 

-D


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

Well, I certainly didn't intend to make myself out a villain here. 

Let me make a few things clear. 

I never said you have to play all the instruments on your songs. 

I never said you shouldn't use MIDI drums. 

From the beginning, I said that I respected everyone's view and that if you don't have access to drums or a drummer, you do what you have to do. 

I think MIDI drums are lame, and a lazy way to make music. The CONCEPT of them is offensive to me, that instead of learning to play an instrument like millions of people throughout time have had to do, now you can have a computer do it for you. The elements of human skill and feeling are erased from the equation. 

I also find the attitude that drums aren't important enough to learn offensive, and I think that attitude is reenforced by the ready accesibility of MIDI drums. 

So I explained why I, as a drummer, find that bothersome. But through it all, I consistently said that I respect everyone's view, even if it is totally opposite of mine, and that I'm not saying you have to learn to play drums. 

My feelings, in summary, could be said like this: "Yeah, you do what you have to to make your music, and it's good that people have access to the tools to do that. But I think it sucks that the tools available also engender an attitude that the instrument they imitate isn't as important to learn anymore, and that it's so easily replaced by a fake counterpart. Especially when people expect their programmed drum parts to be regarded with the same appreciation as if it had been played by an actual human being. But you do what you have to do, and best wishes to everyone in their musical endeavors."

So if you use MIDI drums (and obviously almost everyone here but me does) best wishes to you in your music. I never said otherwise. My apologies if I offended anyone, but I just feel that if you're going to have an instrument in your music, you should have an INSTRUMENT in your music. Whether you play it or not, I greatly prefer it if some PERSON plays it. It's just me, people. Obviously I'm in the minority in this opinion. Your world will keep on turning just fine if I continue to think this.

You guys using MIDI drums doesn't bother me personally, the CONCEPT of the technology and the attached attitude does. If my disliking MIDI drums bothers you personally, then, um, loosen up. I'm not saying you shouldn't use them, never did. Do what you gotta do, and best wishes, which is what I said from the start.

Personally, as a musician, I have chosen to learn to play multiple instruments and play all my own stuff. Never once did I say that anyone else had to do the same. Never once did I tell you not to use MIDI drums, no one would have the right to anyway. I've said from the start to do what you have to do, I just don't like the things.

If you're going to be mad at me, be mad at me for what I actually said, not what you assume I might be thinking or what you infer from what I said. And if me not liking MIDI drums and thinking they're lame and lazy bothers you so personally, then go have a drink on me and chill.


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## Metal Ken (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> I think MIDI drums are lame, and a lazy way to make music. The CONCEPT of them is offensive to me, that instead of learning to play an instrument like millions of people throughout time have had to do, now you can have a computer do it for you. The elements of human skill and feeling are erased from the equation.


Never said you were the bad guy. I respect your opinion. The reasion why i disagree is:
I dont have the money for a nice drumset. I dont have a spare 300$ - 500$ for cymbals and I dont have 800$ to drop on a nice Tama set. I dont have another 250$ for a nice double foot pedal. Thats about 1300$ right there. Plus i'd need another 300$ for a drum mic set and yet another 200$ for a mixing board for 7 microphones. 
I am a full time student and i also work about 30 hours a week. Any free time i have is going towards my friends, and my guitar. I got a 150$ drum machine. I can take the time to learn that and program intricate loops into it. That said, i also would probably be a very mediocre drummer. Rather than failing horribly at parts that i couldnt actually play, i will program them. It would sound way better. It just ISNT practical for me to be a drummer. So i wont be. I dont have any interest to learn that instrument. So i will substitute it with a drum machine.


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## Drew (Jun 7, 2005)

Likewise- I don't program drum loops (I at least use a sampled kit, because to me it sounds a little closer) because I'd rather do without a drummer - it's a substitute for the real thing, but it's not the real thing. 

I think we see basically eye-to-eye, that sequenced drums are a useful tool, but one givent he means we'd all gladly do without. Hroup hug? 

-D


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> Never said you were the bad guy. I respect your opinion. The reasion why i disagree is:
> I dont have the money for a nice drumset. I dont have a spare 300$ - 500$ for cymbals and I dont have 800$ to drop on a nice Tama set. I dont have another 250$ for a nice double foot pedal. Thats about 1300$ right there. Plus i'd need another 300$ for a drum mic set and yet another 200$ for a mixing board for 7 microphones.
> I am a full time student and i also work about 30 hours a week. Any free time i have is going towards my friends, and my guitar. I got a 150$ drum machine. I can take the time to learn that and program intricate loops into it. That said, i also would probably be a very mediocre drummer. Rather than failing horribly at parts that i couldnt actually play, i will program them. It would sound way better. It just ISNT practical for me to be a drummer. So i wont be. I dont have any interest to learn that instrument. So i will substitute it with a drum machine.



And I have nothing but the best wishes for you in your musical endeavors, which is what I said from the start. I also said from the start that not everyone has access to drums or a drummer, and you do what you have to. I hope it works out well for you.


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## Vince (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> But personally, I hate the things. They seem to me the very antithesis of what music is all about: skill, dedication, work, beauty, feeling, passion, execution.



I'm not saying you're a bad guy here, but I have to respectfully disagree. From my own personal expeience, my best songwriting isn't done when I have a guitar in my hands, it's done when I'm sitting behind a keyboard/synth or trying out different percussion ideas on a drum machine. As for sequenced drums being "lame and lazy", I spent more time on the drum sounds for my recent album than I did on any other instrument. There were a lot of nights I was up until 4 or 5 am just plugging in snare drums, or messing around with stacked Hi-Hat sounds, or whatnot.

If you know how to use a drum machine & a sequencer properly, it's an instrument all into it's own. I, for instance, don't just "fruity loop" a drum track together. I first start out by laying down bass drum and snare backbeats, then I systematically add Hi-Hat, Ride, and auxiliary cymbals. I sequence the Hi-Hat, Ride and bass drums, while putting in (by hand on the multitrack) the cymbals, the snare overdub stack (I stack 2 snare drum sounds to make it sound real).

Either way you look at it, it's an art form. Sometimes it's easier for some to get their ideas out by beating a real drum set, for others like myself it's more efficient and effective to do the work by hand and let your mind do the work instead of your motor skills. Either way is excellent and both ways are artistic.

Case in point, the drums on "Lay't Down" .........

http://www.vincelupone.com/mp3/VINCELUPONE_laytdown128.mp3

Most people can't tell these are sequenced and overlaid drums. Musicians should be able to, but the vast majority of the listening public couldn't hear the difference. You don't know how many e-mails I've received saying "Dude your drummer is INSANE on Trail of Light, where did you find that guy?!" 

Now, as far as a live band goes, yeah you really have to have a real drummer, and I love collaborating with a true percussionist, but for recording my own music that's all about the sounds I hear in my head, that's best done all by myself at home with my digital percussion equipment.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

Drew said:


> Likewise- I don't program drum loops (I at least use a sampled kit, because to me it sounds a little closer) because I'd rather do without a drummer - it's a substitute for the real thing, but it's not the real thing.
> 
> I think we see basically eye-to-eye, that sequenced drums are a useful tool, but one givent he means we'd all gladly do without. Hroup hug?
> 
> -D



Come here, you big lug. *SMOOCH!*


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

desertdweller said:


> I have to disagree. My best songwriting isn't done when I have a guitar in my hands, it's done when I'm sitting behind a keyboard/synth or trying out different percussion ideas on a drum machine.
> 
> If you know how to use a drum machine & a sequencer properly, it's an instrument all into it's own. I, for instance, don't just "fruity loop" a drum track together. I first start out by laying down bass drum and snare backbeats, then I systematically add Hi-Hat, Ride, and auxiliary cymbals. I sequence the Hi-Hat, Ride and bass drums, while putting in (by hand on the multitrack) the cymbals, the snare overdub stack (I stack 2 snare drum sounds to make it sound real).
> 
> ...



Excellent point, and well taken. But as BCrowell was bringing out, there's a difference between composing and executing. I often work out drum parts in my head before playing them, and as such I'm composing but not playing. However something is composed, such as how you do it, I greatly prefer it to be a human being, with passion and skill, that ultimately performs it on a recording or live. That way you are reaping the benefits of a players skill and hard work, whether it's you or someone else, and justifying all that work. I probably should have been a bit less general. Composing can be any number of different processes, from totally in the mind of the writer to being worked out over time with programs. But when it comes time to perform, I personally want it to be human beings (or even trained monkeys) that I'm hearing. Just my opinion, it's not the end of the world if everyone disagrees.


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## Vince (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> But when it comes time to perform, I personally want it to be human beings (or even trained monkeys) that I'm hearing. Just my opinion, it's not the end of the world if everyone disagrees.



I agree with you when it comes to a live setting, but when it comes to a studio recording, sometimes sequenced or artifical drums can sound the best because they can be controlled the best. It's all whatever the song requires. Both live drumming and digital editing have their limitations.


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## Digital Black (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> Well, I certainly didn't intend to make myself out a villain here.
> 
> Let me make a few things clear.
> 
> ...


No you are saying "I think MIDI drums are lame, and a LAZY way to make music" The only way any rational human being can take that is; we forsake a "real " instrument so that we may cut a corner-which by your standards is lazy. I do not take what little I am able to create lightly. While it may suck and be shitty and nobody wants to hear it or whatever, it's still mine-which gives me the right to defnd they way I (and countless others) do things.
Tell you what, I'd be more than happy to start learning it the "real way" if you'd so kind to provide me the nessceary funds to puchase a nice set.
Maybe then i can attain the standard of a real musician.
This thread was orginally about CREATING a backing track with some degree of fuctionailty and substance. The fact thatmidi does take work and some degree of skill, means nothing to some people here it seems. I choose to outreach to my fellow freinds for thier advice. Instead, a few choose to lecture us " have nots" of our preferences. While not outright offensive or mean; it still comes off as belittleing....
I'm not angry at anybody. But your way off my map on respect, mindriot. Opnion is what it is-that's cool. However, in this case I affirm the right to voice mine since it was orginally my question that started it all.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 7, 2005)

I just don't like MIDI drums. I don't like MIDI DRUMS. Not YOU PERSONALLY. I have nothing to say about your music or how you choose to make it. You're the one making it personal. Some guitarists often say that using alternate tunings is lazy and a cop out, would you get so offended if someone expressed that opinion? 

I never meant any personal disrespect, I just don't like the technology. I'm not lecturing anyone. My first post was that I didn't like them and I did my drum tracks with an e-drum set. If no one had responded with questions or arguments I wouldn't have posted in the thread again. 

For pete's sake people, it's my right not to like the technology. You don't have to take it as some big personal affront. It's not an insult to any person. 

I'll make a mental note that saying that I don't like MIDI drums is not allowed on this forum. Saying WHY I don't like them is apparently even more heinous, because apparently some people can't tell the difference between criticizing a technology and criticizing it's users. Remind me not to say anything bad about Windows XP in case there are any users of it on here.

Now I'll shut up before I get banned for my opinions.


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## Digital Black (Jun 7, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> I just don't like MIDI drums. I don't like MIDI DRUMS. Not YOU PERSONALLY. I have nothing to say about your music or how you choose to make it. You're the one making it personal. Some guitarists often say that using alternate tunings is lazy and a cop out, would you get so offended if someone expressed that opinion?
> 
> I never meant any personal disrespect, I just don't like the technology. I'm not lecturing anyone. My first post was that I didn't like them and I did my drum tracks with an e-drum set. If no one had responded with questions or arguments I wouldn't have posted in the thread again.
> 
> ...


I'm not angry with you..
But if you don't want sombody to take something personal don't judge the way they choose to do something as "lazy" and make it out to be something it's not.. Obvously you feel strongly about this subject-don't get so offended when others do the same..


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## Digital Black (Jun 7, 2005)

oh i know nobody assulted any music I made-it was my own admission that it stunk


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## Mind Riot (Jun 8, 2005)

Sephiroth000 said:


> I'm not angry with you..
> But if you don't want sombody to take something personal don't judge the way they choose to do something as "lazy" and make it out to be something it's not.. Obvously you feel strongly about this subject-don't get so offended when others do the same..



Look, I said that I didn't like the technology and that I thought it was a lazy way to make music. I immediately followed that by saying that I understand that not everyone feels the way I do and that I respect everyone's opinion, and that I also respect everyone's right to choose how they do things. That's what I've said all along. 

From where I'm standing, to be honest, I don't really think there is any way I could have said it nicer and still have been honest. I didn't mean to offend anyone, and I thought that everyone would be able to draw a line between criticism of the technology and criticism of themselves. I'm not calling anyone's way of doing things lazy, I'm criticizing the technology and it's concept. And I'm not the one who's offended here.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 8, 2005)

desertdweller said:


> I agree with you when it comes to a live setting, but when it comes to a studio recording, sometimes sequenced or artifical drums can sound the best because they can be controlled the best. It's all whatever the song requires. Both live drumming and digital editing have their limitations.



I agree, but that's also something I said from the start. If someone is using MIDI drums as an instrument and artistic end unto itself, then that's great.


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## Digital Black (Jun 8, 2005)

<-- not offended-just preturbed.

"Now I'll shut up before I get banned for my opinions." <---was an immature sucker punch/ I'm not that kind of person...


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## Mind Riot (Jun 10, 2005)

Sephiroth000 said:


> <-- not offended-just preturbed.
> 
> "Now I'll shut up before I get banned for my opinions." <---was an immature sucker punch/ I'm not that kind of person...



My apologies, but also, it wasn't directed at you personally. Quite a few of the people posting in the thread are mods, and my extremely unpopular views were making me wonder if sooner or later someone would kick me out. I have no idea how the mods choose to run the site. Some forums are lax and some are ruled with an iron fist.

To be honest, I think you may be taking this too personally. In one of your other posts, to paraphrase, you said that the only way a rational person could take my criticism of MIDI drums was that I was calling their way of doing things lazy. In truth, a rational person could have just as easily taken it as 'Mind Riot really doesn't like MIDI drums and thinks they're a lazy way to make music, but he said from the start that he respected everyone elses opinion and way of doing things'. Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to take a criticism of a technology as a personal insult.

In any case, I am sorry that I got anyone riled up. I will definitely make a mental note not to mention this subject in the future.


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## BCrowell (Jun 10, 2005)

I think most tend to take things too personally, and lash out. We have done you wrong, if this has convinced you to limit your opinions here. We should treat EVERYONE's opinion with respect and not flame out at them. Shame on all of us...


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## Digital Black (Jun 10, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> My apologies, but also, it wasn't directed at you personally. Quite a few of the people posting in the thread are mods, and my extremely unpopular views were making me wonder if sooner or later someone would kick me out. I have no idea how the mods choose to run the site. Some forums are lax and some are ruled with an iron fist.
> 
> To be honest, I think you may be taking this too personally. In one of your other posts, to paraphrase, you said that the only way a rational person could take my criticism of MIDI drums was that I was calling their way of doing things lazy. In truth, a rational person could have just as easily taken it as 'Mind Riot really doesn't like MIDI drums and thinks they're a lazy way to make music, but he said from the start that he respected everyone elses opinion and way of doing things'. Nobody put a gun to anyone's head and forced them to take a criticism of a technology as a personal insult.
> 
> In any case, I am sorry that I got anyone riled up. I will definitely make a mental note not to mention this subject in the future.


Let's forget about it and get back to making music-me and you just won't discuss this topic together anymore.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 10, 2005)

BCrowell said:


> I think most tend to take things too personally, and lash out. We have done you wrong, if this has convinced you to limit your opinions here. We should treat EVERYONE's opinion with respect and not flame out at them. Shame on all of us...




No, I probably overreacted to the responses. While this particular subject probably will not be discussed by me again on here (not because of being censored or anything, just to keep the peace), I still feel like I can speak freely on other things. 

Hopefully no hard feelings. There certainly isn't any from my end, in any case.


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## Mind Riot (Jun 10, 2005)

Sephiroth000 said:


> Let's forget about it and get back to making music-me and you just won't discuss this topic together anymore.



Fair enough.


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## Digital Black (Jun 10, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> Fair enough.


Good .. because I was just about to ban your ass.............. 

Naw just kidding man...I would never do that-I like fairness for everybody, plus the other mods would rightfully come down on me..Plus sometimes friction breeds new ideas or forces me ( and others) to rethink things..


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## Drew (Jun 11, 2005)

Mind Riot said:


> I have no idea how the mods choose to run the site.



we have no formal moderation policy as such, but "anything goes, just don't be a complete dickhead and don't spam the site for your pyramid scheme" is a pretty good rough summation, and while you stated your opinion in slightly strong language, I wouldn't go so far as to call you a "complete dickhead..." Well, call you that and mean it, anyhow. 

Seriosuly though, disagreement is half the fun of places like this. As long as it's done in a reasonably respectful manner, bring it.


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## Shawn (Jun 11, 2005)

Yeah, disagreement can be fun at times but I've also learned that it can be a disappointment but what makes us different as individuality in the process of recording and how we are as musicians creates a diverse open mind for me....I certainly respect everybody's opinion as I wouldn't have about 2 months ago. As long as we create artistic music in which however we do so, Im happy.


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## Padraig (Jun 20, 2005)

I used to just write them up in guitar pro for my first cd, than export the midi, run it through NI Battery with real drum samples.

For my upcoming cd it's much more complicated, I've got my best friend and drummer when I play live to call over he'll listen to my scratch tracks. Change bass drum, snare pattern's and write up the fill's for me.

Next I'll make seperate tracks for Bass Drum, Snare, Tom's, Cymbals and Hi-Hats. I'll take the track he just typed up and divide it up one note at a time. When all is done I'll add soundfonts to the studiio, first I record only an audio bass drum, than snare etc... etc...

Giving everything its own track gives great freedom when it comes to mixing...


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## Mind Riot (Jun 20, 2005)

Padraig said:


> I used to just write them up in guitar pro for my first cd, than export the midi, run it through NI Battery with real drum samples.
> 
> For my upcoming cd it's much more complicated, I've got my best friend and drummer when I play live to call over he'll listen to my scratch tracks. Change bass drum, snare pattern's and write up the fill's for me.
> 
> ...



That's actually one thing that makes me somewhat jealous of MIDI drums, is the flexibility in mixing. 

With my setup, I record out of the stereo outputs on my drum module into two inputs of my recorder. So all I get is a stereo mix of the set that I have to set up in advance. I've never had too much of a problem getting a set to sound good and fit in a mix, but it would sure be easier to give each drum and cymbal it's own track and then mix it with everything else instead of guessing how to set it up in advance. Sometimes you need a bit more bass drum once all the guitars are in there, and with my setup if I've already got the final drum track recorded it's tough luck for me. Nothing like spending hours or days getting the perfect take of a drum track to find out, once you have everything else in the mix, that the ride and bass drum are too quiet and the hats are too loud.  

Not to mention adding reverb or compression. I've got a stereo mix of the set, so I can't just add reverb to the snare and cymbals like I might be inclined to do sometimes, I have to do the whole set or none at all, which sucks. Unless, of course, I do it in advance on specific drums and cymbals within the module BEFORE I record it, which can be just as hard as setting it up right in the first place. Same thing with compression. I'd prefer to compress the drums only, no cymbals, to avoid the breathing sound you can get from compressed cymbals sometimes. But I have no choice. Man, sometimes I wonder if my music is really worth all this trouble.  

With MIDI drums or an acoustic set with a decent amount of mics and tracks, you've got a lot more control. That's definitely something I envy you guys, because to be honest, the way I do it can really be a pain in the ass sometimes.


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## Josh (Jun 25, 2005)

If I had the $$ for a good vdrum set, there would be one in my basement right now. Until that happens, I will program with FLStudio and be glad I have that available for my recording tasks.


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## Chris (Jun 25, 2005)

FL + DKFH samples = Pretty damned decent stuff, for sequenced drums.

Of course, if I didn't suck at actually writing the tracks, I'm sure my shit would be a lot better.


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## Drew (Jun 25, 2005)

Chris said:


> Of course, if I didn't suck at actually writing the tracks, I'm sure my shit would be a lot better.




I'm not a hell of a lot better (and it helps that I like to write pretty sparse stuff ) but you know what helped me learn to think like a drummer? Sit down with a CD with a good drum riff on it, and try to sequence the riff yourself. It's interestring...

-D


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## Chris (Jun 25, 2005)

I'm a guitarist. If I wanted to be a drummer, I'd have gone that route instead.  My drummer looks like this:







And ya know what? "He" does the job. Lots of good points in this thread to argue both sides of it, but at the end of the day this is a guitar forum, so any debate about synth drums vs. synth guitars is apt to be very one sided.


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## Padraig (Jun 26, 2005)

Too true, I don't find anything wrong with basic drum patterns anyway. One quick listen to Satraini's "Surfin with the Alien" show's that particuary on intrumental guitar/shred no one pays attention to the drums (cept drummers). The drum programming on that cd is awful.

There's nothing worse than jamming with a bad drummer who wants to be Neil Peart.


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## Shawn (Jun 26, 2005)

Neil Peart is a legend and he's awesome.


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## Kane (Jun 26, 2005)

In a perfect world, I would never need to use a drum synth. Unfortunately, I don't live in a perfect world. I play me some brutal, technical death metal on my 7 string. I do my own vocals. I even bought a bass guitar and amp workstation so I could do my own basswork. I'd like to play with a real band, but for 3 years I have searched for people who could play my songs and haven't found any. I got my brother into the drums, and he bought a kit. It's in the other room, but after 3 years of playing, he still sucks. I can play the drums a bit, but nowhere near the calibur needed to match my guitar playing. In order to use a human drummer, I would need one of the best death metal guitarists in the scene, and for now, I don't forsee any of them coming off tour or halting their own projects to lay down some drum tracks for me. 

This leaves me with two options: Use computerized drums, or don't record music. Unfortunately, I have had to go with the latter far too often, because the drum program I use, Fruity Loops, is very inadequate when it comes to programming complicated drums into. I love music, and I want to make my own. It's not my fault that I can't find good musicians to accompany me in my area. I have looked everywhere. Perhaps one day I will find that drummer I need, along with a bass player and second guitarist, but even then I couldn't really tour because I'm a single dad. To call my use of computerized drums lazy would be an inaccurate statement, as they are by far the most difficult part of my song recording. It takes me hours just to record the drums for one riff, as I utilize many time changes.


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## Padraig (Jun 26, 2005)

Shawn said:


> Neil Peart is a legend and he's awesome.


Indeed, but I hate when poor drummers try and imitate him. Its awful. Terrible.


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## Kane (Jun 26, 2005)

Derek Roddy, George Kolias, Tony Laureano, Yanic Bercier, John Longstreth and so many others > Neil Peart


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## Chris (Jun 26, 2005)

Kane said:


> Derek Roddy, George Kolias, Tony Laureano, Yanic Bercier, John Longstreth and so many others > Neil Peart



 Yeah, he sucks alright.


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## Padraig (Jun 26, 2005)

Kane said:


> Derek Roddy, George Kolias, Tony Laureano, Yanic Bercier, John Longstreth and so many others > Neil Peart



Who are those guys? what bands should I be checking out?
They must be pretty damn good to be >Neil.


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## Kane (Jun 26, 2005)

You can find the first three on different Nile albums, Yanic drums for a band called Quo Vadis, Longstreth used to drum for Origin, but now drums for Skinless. Roddy drums for Hate Eternel as well as several other projects.

Chris, I didn't say he sucks, though it is rather aggravating to hear how wonderful the same musicians are all the time, simply because they are more commercial. The underground is host to so many sick musicians that never get credit it's not even funny.


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## Padraig (Jun 27, 2005)

Oh i just downloaded Nile and tbh all I hear is "Look how fast I can kick the bassdrums". Dunno which exact drummer/s I have but on all 5 mp3 its just machine gun bass drum and absolutely nothing impressive with the hands.

Of course this is just imho.


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## Kane (Jun 28, 2005)

Actually, Nile's drummers have always been good with their hands as well as their feet. The songs they have on the Relapse site are good songs but not ones I would share with others to show how much the band rocks. Of course, I've always found it amusing, when talking to non-death metal musicians, how death metal is all about speed, and that the real talent is possessed by those in less extreme forms of music. Regardless of the fascade, however, speed is just a part of death metal, one of the basics. I know of faster drummers, but enjoy the stylings of the ones I listed more. I openly challenge anyone who would talk shit to first play death metal, and then talk about its simplicity afterwards. I'm not talking about mediocre death metal either, but the best.


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## Padraig (Jun 29, 2005)

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying there's no talent just alot of times machine gun bass drums get too much for me.

As far death metal in general I actually quite like it and most of it is far from simple


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## Drew (Jun 29, 2005)

Danny Carey > all. 

Personal opinion, of course, but his phrasing and grasp of polyrhythm as shown on "Lateralus" is absurd. The cymbol fills on the title track's breakdown are borderline orgasmic. 

-D


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## Kane (Jul 1, 2005)

Here is some live George Kolias stuff, drumming for Nile on the songs Cast down the Heretic and part of Sacrifice unto Sebek. Unfortunately the quality is not the greatest, but it's good enough to see him do his thing.

http://www.metallabs.com/KILLER_VIDEOS/GeorgesVideos.zip


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## Jeff (Jul 1, 2005)

Drew said:


> Danny Carey > all.
> 
> Personal opinion, of course, but his phrasing and grasp of polyrhythm as shown on "Lateralus" is absurd. The cymbol fills on the title track's breakdown are borderline orgasmic.
> 
> -D



I totally have to pick up the Adrian Belew disc with him and Les Claypool. That has _got_ to be some sick sick shit!

On Topic, my ideal kit would be a V-Drum set up, controlling Reason and then fixing up my sloppy shit in the sequencer. Oh and maybe adding an extra bass drum here and there. 

I like technology. For such a "rebellious" group of people that rock musicians are, guitarists are so damn phobic of technology, it's irritating. 

It's here, use it for art, not as a bandaid.


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## Kane (Jul 1, 2005)

The beauty of metal, for me, is being able to play live what is on the CD. If technology can be used to enhance the sound of naturally played music so be it, but if I wanted artificially created "music", I'd go for rap or industrial or something.


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## Metal Ken (Jul 1, 2005)

Drew said:


> Danny Carey > all.
> 
> Personal opinion, of course, but his phrasing and grasp of polyrhythm as shown on "Lateralus" is absurd. The cymbol fills on the title track's breakdown are borderline orgasmic.
> 
> -D



Drew, Have you listened to Spiral Architect? you havent heard a drummer with such an understanding of timing since Sean Reinart from Cynic.


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## KillMAH (Jul 1, 2005)

This post got really long and somewhat off-topic, so someone may have already offered this in what I didn't have time to read. Anyhoo....

I do not have a MIDI or drum machine, and I hate using Fruity Loops. Instead, there is a company called BetaMonkey Music that sells CD's of recorded live drums. You can find them online. The CD's come in several different styles including double bass, and they are organized in folders by bpm. They are usually a measure or two long, and they also include fills and one-hits to use in a sequencer. The patterns vary quite a bit, and there are usually several in the right bpm range to be quantized into your music. Of course, the drawback is less control as far as mixing, and you will still have to sequence if you want a unique pattern. There are only so many. It's relatively simple with ProTracks to drag and drop a loop and quantize it. You could add the fills and accents later, but looping a couple patterns will give you a good base to start from.


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## Jeff (Jul 2, 2005)

KillMAH said:


> This post got really long and somewhat off-topic, so someone may have already offered this in what I didn't have time to read. Anyhoo....
> 
> I do not have a MIDI or drum machine, and I hate using Fruity Loops. Instead, there is a company called BetaMonkey Music that sells CD's of recorded live drums. You can find them online. The CD's come in several different styles including double bass, and they are organized in folders by bpm. They are usually a measure or two long, and they also include fills and one-hits to use in a sequencer. The patterns vary quite a bit, and there are usually several in the right bpm range to be quantized into your music. Of course, the drawback is less control as far as mixing, and you will still have to sequence if you want a unique pattern. There are only so many. It's relatively simple with ProTracks to drag and drop a loop and quantize it. You could add the fills and accents later, but looping a couple patterns will give you a good base to start from.



Yeah, they're called loops, and people have been using them for years in Acid. but like you said, they don't offer enough control. 

So what I use is Reason, with the samples in it of real drums, and then go and buy Modern Drummer magazines, and read the lessons. Since I can read music (even drummer music) I can program the drums as a real drummer would play them. Sure, they may still lack feeling, but they won't try to hit on my wife either.


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## NiMH (Jul 5, 2005)

I have a BOSS DR 880 that I really love. This is the first drum machine that I've seen that realizes that I bought a goddam DRUM MACHINE because I don't play the f--king DRUMS. There is a host of drum fills that can be seamlessly added to your own loops, instead of busting your brain trying to think of and program complex drum changes. I find that when I use these preset fills along with my own programmed fills, I can get the expressiveness that I need without taking up six hours of my time with tedious programming. For an example of this at work, visit this link:

www.myspace.com/nationalinstitute

I am one of two members of the national institute of mental health, and if anyone has any questions about MIDI at all, feel free to PM me anytime. MIDI is my thing.

P.S. >>> MIND RIOT:

I understand your beef with MIDI. That's cool. Just bear in mind that I'm not trying to repace a drummer, it's just that all the drummers in my area either suck of are in bands already.

If I could find a proficient drummer I would. I write industrial (NOT with NiMH, but a side-project) by circumstance.


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## Padraig (Jul 8, 2005)

NiMH said:


> Just bear in mind that I'm not trying to repace a drummer, it's just that all the drummers in my area either suck of are in bands already.
> 
> If I could find a proficient drummer I would. I write industrial (NOT with NiMH, but a side-project) by circumstance.




Plus the fact midi's won't sleep with your girlfriend.


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## Jeff (Jul 8, 2005)

Padraig said:


> Plus the fact midi's won't sleep with your girlfriend.



Mine's tried though, but I threatened static shock from the carpet. Sudden death for any circuit board.


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## Drew (Jul 8, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> Drew, Have you listened to Spiral Architect? you havent heard a drummer with such an understanding of timing since Sean Reinart from Cynic.



I've heard a few clips on Amazon.com, but the vocalist was a major turnoff. SA and Cynic are both bands I should give a listen to, though, as I love Sean Malone, and I've heard SA compares favorably to Cynic...


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## NiMH (Jul 8, 2005)

Padraig said:


> Plus the fact midi's won't sleep with your girlfriend.



That's always a plus.

and, MIDI drums will shut the f--k up with the simple push of a button.


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## gojira (Aug 5, 2005)

Sephiroth000 said:


> I need advice for making more than just 1 rhythem and 1 fill tracks. While I have Excellent timing,using a program top plot out drums is very aggravating. What do you guys use and what tips do you have?



you just need to bite the bullet - the best results if you aren't recording midi from a v-drum kit, are painting stuff - it works, but it sucks....


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