# Bible Verses To No Longer Be Stamped In Gun Sights



## dmguitarist99 (Jan 21, 2010)

Firm will remove Bible references from gun sights | General News | Comcast.net

Has anyone else seen this? Now almost every atheist/skeptic/non-religious person I've ever met along with myself is a pretty strong pacifist but this just takes the cake I believe. It does say they are being removed but I think this does the job when it comes to the statement that religions fuel wars.

What do some of you think about this?


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 21, 2010)

In before the flame wars start on religion. I'm just surprised that it took the Army so long to realize that "JN8:12" was code for John 8:12.


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## AySay (Jan 21, 2010)

It's disgusting and hypocritical that these fucks put their stupid religious bullshit on things designed to kill, and then mock other religions for not being "peaceful".


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## Xaios (Jan 21, 2010)

Also in before the flame war. While it's probably best that they be taken off, what was the harm in having them there when no one had a clue what they meant? They probably just thought it was a model number or something. 

"Oh noez, the Christians are trying to indoctrinate our armed forces with bible verses... oh wait, no, REFERENCES to bible verses disguised as obtuse meaningless numbers!"


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## Prydogga (Jan 21, 2010)

I didn't know any of this ever happened, I think it'd good, especially if the muslims terrorist were using guns stamped with bible versus, I'm pretty sure they'd have a thing against that. I'm an atheist but I couldn't really care less if my TV said Jesus Rocks! on the back, or any other religious statements.


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## MF_Kitten (Jan 21, 2010)

i was hoping it would be something badass, like the actual verse written out so you could see it in the corner of your eye in the sight, and that it was something like the prayer in boondock saints or the verse in pulp fiction 

this is totally dumb though, it's their way of "blessing" the snipers with bible verses.

i wouldn't say this represents christianity as a whole though, i can imagine many christians being appalled at knowing about this. i can imagine american extremist-type christians getting all nutty about it being the greatest thing ever though.


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## dmguitarist99 (Jan 21, 2010)

MF_Kitten said:


> i wouldn't say this represents christianity as a whole though, i can imagine many christians being appalled at knowing about this. i can imagine american extremist-type christians getting all nutty about it being the greatest thing ever though.




At first I wouldn't either, but when the Military supports a "Christian" nation I think it looks pretty bad.


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## Prydogga (Jan 21, 2010)

dmguitarist99 said:


> At first I wouldn't either, but when the Military supports a "Christian" nation I think it looks pretty bad.



I'm pretty sure some military forces already are like that.


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## B Lopez (Jan 21, 2010)

I like that it was there...

John 8:12 - When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

These optics have illuminated reticules which I think the verse suits it very well.



Everyone knew what those numbers meant, some news company just brought it into light with a negative connotation and started slinging shit about religion and war.

I would still put one on my weapon, and will put one on my civi rifle when I can afford it.


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## Bungle (Jan 21, 2010)

As a firm agnostic I actually don't see any problem with this. It's the old storm in a tea cup, mountain out of a molehill, etc, etc.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 21, 2010)

You Americans going to stop carrying cash because they put "In God We Trust" on it?


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## B Lopez (Jan 21, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You Americans going to stop carrying cash because they put "In God We Trust" on it?



No, I just want free tools from the treasury to remove it.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 21, 2010)

I'll be awful surprised on the day that happens  Pleasantly, but still surprised. I hardly ever carry cash so I have no idea what religious propaganda is on our money


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 21, 2010)

B Lopez said:


> No, I just want free tools from the treasury to remove it.





 Rep.


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## leftyguitarjoe (Jan 23, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> You Americans going to stop carrying cash because they put "In God We Trust" on it?



I already dont carry cash

If I lose my wallet, I can cancel my card. I cant cancel cash


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## anthonyferguson (Jan 23, 2010)

Prydogga said:


> I didn't know any of this ever happened, I think it'd good, especially if the muslims terrorist were using guns stamped with bible versus, I'm pretty sure they'd have a thing against that. I'm an atheist but I couldn't really care less if my TV said Jesus Rocks! on the back, or any other religious statements.



missed the point there i think :/


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## Chickenhawk (Jan 23, 2010)

Huh...weird. In the years I spent with the Army, I've fired a shit load of different weapon systems, including scoped rifles, and I never saw anything like they explained.

Hmmmm.


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## Customisbetter (Jan 23, 2010)

is it just me, or is it that every badass military sniper in movies always says some random bible verse right before he headshots the shit out of an enemy?

im pretty sure these markings are quite accepted amongst the users of the scopes. 

I really want one of these now.


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## Variant (Jan 25, 2010)

This makes me want to buy a Trijicon sight, file off the gospel bullshit, put it on a gun, shoot the shit out of a bible with it, then send 'em the "good book" complete with nice grouping, with the following note: _*"Yup, works with or without your fairy tale reference on it. Good product."*_


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## Tiger (Jan 25, 2010)

This is great, the last thing I want to do as a pagan is send someone to hell and give God credit for it.


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## Varcolac (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm less annoyed at the fact it's a bible reference, and more annoyed at the fact a government contractor took the time and money to engrave that shit on them when the military cuts corners everywhere else. No armour for your Humvee? No problem, we've got Jesus on your gunsight. 

And I'm annoyed that neither of the inscriptions are EZ25:17.

Great vengeance and furious anger.


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## B Lopez (Jan 25, 2010)

Variant said:


> This makes me want to buy a Trijicon sight, file off the gospel bullshit, put it on a gun, shoot the shit out of a bible with it, then send 'em the "good book" complete with nice grouping, with the following note: _*"Yup, works with or without your fairy tale reference on it. Good product."*_



I dig.


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## Abstract_Logic (Jan 25, 2010)

Xaios said:


> "Oh noez, the Christians are trying to indoctrinate our armed forces with bible verses... oh wait, no, REFERENCES to bible verses disguised as obtuse meaningless numbers!"


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## Xaios (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm thinking PS91:5-8 would be appropriate, especially verses 7 and 8:



Psalm 91:5-8 King James Version said:


> Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day; Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday. *A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.*



KJV is always the most metal.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 25, 2010)

While being an atheist myself, I believe that Christianity for Western troops is a good idea. Whether I agree with the cause or the war is irrelevant, if it helps them through the hard times and gives them strength to do the job then I support it.


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## Xaios (Jan 25, 2010)

Interesting.

:rubs goatee with one eyebrow cocked in pensive manner:


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## Abstract_Logic (Jan 25, 2010)

I don't see why the verse is there in the first place really. but even as an atheist also I think it's just a big deal being made over something for the sake of being politically correct.


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## phaeded0ut (Jan 25, 2010)

Social experiment to see how long it would take for someone to figure it out?


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## Abstract_Logic (Jan 25, 2010)

how much cooler would it be if it was a Steven Seagal line instead?


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 25, 2010)

Xaios said:


> Interesting.
> 
> :rubs goatee with one eyebrow cocked in pensive manner:




Wow, at first, I read that as goatse instead of goatee. Completely changes the meaning of the sentence.


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## lobee (Jan 25, 2010)

BigPhi84 said:


> Wow, at first, I read that as goatse instead of goatee. Completely changes the meaning of the sentence.



Even the phrase "eyebrow cocked" becomes suspect when used in the same sentence as "goatse". Then there's rubbing involved and a word that could be read as "penis" at a dyslexic's first glance. Not a good time.































[action=lobee]rubs goatse with one eyebrow cooked in penis matter[/action]


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 25, 2010)

lobee said:


> Even the phrase "eyebrow cocked" becomes suspect when used in the same sentence as "goatse". Then there's rubbing involved and a word that could be read as "penis" at a dyslexic's first glance. Not a good time.



Hey, we've all done it right? ...no? Just me?


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## lobee (Jan 25, 2010)

^See my edit.


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 25, 2010)

lobee said:


> * lobee rubs goatse with one eyebrow cooked in penis matter




How do you _cook_ an eyebrow in a penis matter?


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## Metal Ken (Jan 25, 2010)

Preface: I think christianity is one of the biggest problems in the western world. 

That said, i dont even see the big deal about this. Why dont we worry more about shit like our government giving millions of dollars to faith based organizations to teach their bullshit abstinence-only sex ed? That's way more detrimental. As a gun owner, i'll actively avoid Trijicon sights, much in the same way i will refuse to ever buy a Splawn guitar amplifier.


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## Abstract_Logic (Jan 25, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> Preface: I think christianity is one of the biggest problems in the western world.
> 
> That said, i dont even see the big deal about this. Why dont we worry more about shit like our government giving millions of dollars to faith based organizations to teach their bullshit abstinence-only sex ed? That's way more detrimental. As a gun owner, i'll actively avoid Trijicon sights, much in the same way i will refuse to ever buy a Splawn guitar amplifier.



couldn't have said it better


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## Customisbetter (Jan 25, 2010)

Maybe off topic, but whats wrong with Splawn?


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## lobee (Jan 25, 2010)

BigPhi84 said:


> How do you _cook_ an eyebrow in a penis matter?



Do you _really_ want me to go into detail of the fucked up place that is my imagination?

[/offtopic]


Now, as I always do, it's time to sit back and watch this civilized discussion of religion/Christianity spiral downwards into sweet, sweet, inevitable madness.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 25, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> Maybe off topic, but whats wrong with Splawn?


From the Splawn website:


> Mission Statement
> 
> 
> At Splawn Amplification, we are committed to the highest customer service standards and product reliability, due to a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. The way we handle day to day business revolves around this relationship. We give all the honor and glory back to the One who is fully responsible. If you have any questions or comments about this mission statement, please feel free to contact us.



I want someone who is committed to customer service, not because they think their god demands it, but because they want to actually better serve their customers, not impress some deity.


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## Customisbetter (Jan 25, 2010)

^ok.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 25, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> ^ok.



The product should be there to fill a niche, not to proselytize.


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## Customisbetter (Jan 25, 2010)

you might be surprised at how much of the world has done to please a "god". in fact, most laws and basic levels of morality are based on some orders given by some deity.

but im sure you already knew that...


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## mlp187 (Jan 25, 2010)

As I gun owner I'll use whatever works well (not a dig at you Metal Ken, I respect your opinion). To me, it's not like they are diamonds mined by children. It's someone's belief in a fairytale. Killing someone while using a scope that has a bible reference on it is no different than killing someone while using a scope engraved w/ a molecular formula. In the end the result is the same. 
As far as Splawn, I have no experience w/ their amps, but if I liked them enough I would purchase one. If their service is stellar then I don't really care what motivates them as long as no one is being hurt/ maimed.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 25, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> in fact, most laws and basic levels of morality are based on some orders given by some deity.
> 
> but im sure you already knew that...



Actually, I'd venture that basic levels of morality come from man, since that's what we can clearly state as an origin point for the concept of morality. Back beyond that, you cant really define where they came from. Every moral issue has believers in most major gods on both sides of the issue.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 26, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> From the Splawn website:
> 
> 
> I want someone who is committed to customer service, not because they think their god demands it, but because they want to actually better serve their customers, not impress some deity.



So... even though Splawn amps sound awesome, you wouldn't buy one because they are Christian company? It shouldn't matter what the company believes in, if they make great products and deliver great customer service, _that's_ what should matter. For all I care ESP could be stark raving Scientologists, I effing love their products.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

I wouldn't buy some stuff depending on faith. No use funding the enemy after all  I'd probably consider Splawn, it just seems he's more using his faith in his business model, which is okay. When it comes to everything they do has to revolve around Jesus, then we got problems. I've e-mailed Splawn from my hotmail account before (it happens to be pretty not Christian ) with a question and it has been answered quickly and without mention of Jesus, or my address, so I don't see that as a big draw back. If I had e-mailed them and they started railing at me for not being Christian, or refusing to help me, then I would personally go out of my way to NOT buy their product, and make sure everyone I knew knew how fucking insane they were.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 26, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> So... even though Splawn amps sound awesome, you wouldn't buy one because they are Christian company? It shouldn't matter what the company believes in, if they make great products and deliver great customer service, _that's_ what should matter. For all I care ESP could be stark raving Scientologists, I effing love their products.


If i want hot-rodded Marshall sounds, i can buy Lee Jackson stuff, and know that 10% of what i spent on it is not going into a collection plate.


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## Tiger (Jan 26, 2010)

Was Jesus known for being a great sales rep or am I missing the connection they are making between customer service and JC?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

Of course he was a great sales rep. Look at Christianity, he sold the cosmic Jewish zombie story to a shit ton of people.


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## 777timesgod (Jan 26, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> If i want hot-rodded Marshall sounds, i can buy Lee Jackson stuff, and know that 10% of what i spent on it is not going into a collection plate.



I guess it goes with the territory. In my opinion christianity is socially dead so why do the americans make such a big deal with it? It's not like the majority of their people follow this doctrine with passion anymore. Islamism and Judaism are followed in a 100 times more strict way by their believers and no one makes it a big deal where i live.

Splawn amps are killer and i wouldnt mind owning one. Its not like Chiristianity, Judaism, Buddism or any other major religion depends on them for survival...

Lee Jackson should make his amps available to the European public btw, and start answering his damn emails.


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## ElRay (Jan 26, 2010)

777timesgod said:


> In my opinion christianity is socially dead so why do the americans make such a big deal with it?


Because we're supposed to have separation of Church and State, yet so many Christians try to use the government to ram their religious views down everybody's throats. It's even worse when they use their distorted version of history (That the U.S. is based on a Judeo/Christian "laws" and/or was set-up as a Christian theocracy) to justify it.


Ray


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## Customisbetter (Jan 26, 2010)

I agree that Lee Jackson amps are totally bitchin.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 26, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I wouldn't buy some stuff depending on faith. No use funding the enemy after all  I'd probably consider Splawn, it just seems he's more using his faith in his business model, which is okay. When it comes to everything they do has to revolve around Jesus, then we got problems. I've e-mailed Splawn from my hotmail account before (it happens to be pretty not Christian ) with a question and it has been answered quickly and without mention of Jesus, or my address, so I don't see that as a big draw back. If I had e-mailed them and they started railing at me for not being Christian, or refusing to help me, then I would personally go out of my way to NOT buy their product, and make sure everyone I knew knew how fucking insane they were.



Not all Christians are your enemy! Some of them are certifiably insane, but there are reasonable ones too let us not forget.



Metal Ken said:


> If i want hot-rodded Marshall sounds, i can buy Lee Jackson stuff, and know that 10% of what i spent on it is not going into a collection plate.



Like it or not, Christians are a part of our countries and they're not going away any time soon. So what if some of it goes to the church? You are aware that Christianity helps fund charities too? 



Tiger said:


> Was Jesus known for being a great sales rep or am I missing the connection they are making between customer service and JC?



This is a joke right? Jesus is THE sales rep for Christianity


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Not all Christians are your enemy! Some of them are certifiably insane, but there are reasonable ones too let us not forget.



We're getting awful close to a religious debate, but it could be argued that if Christianity itself is the enemy (the institution, not the followers), and it is, that helping Christians is actually helping your enemy. Like Ken said, every penny you give them, you can be sure that they're going to give a chunk to the collection plate, thus funding your enemy. The ones who don't go to church and hardly practice at all aren't an issue, since they won't be preaching to you, claiming Jesus helps them be better at customer service, or engraving bible verses on gun sights.

Would I personally take it that far? Not quite  But almost.


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2010)

I might just play deliberately ignorant, but I've never really made it a habit over-think where my money goes when I purchase stuff. Considering 90% of the money you spend in a normal day unavoidably goes to either corporations that promote slave wages or corrupt officials, I don't think giving business to a small business owner is a big deal; even if they promote or fund certain ideals that you're not totally into. 

EDIT: Seems kinda extreme to consider an entire religion as the enemy, don't you think? Like, that's the sorta extremism or black/white arguments that we're poo-pooing those religions for in the first place, ain't it?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't think so at all. I would fight for anyone's right to believe in it, but it doesn't mean I have to deem it worthy of my respect.


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2010)

A wise man once said:



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Yes. I got into black metal after all that shit went down in Norway, so yes, I have bought Burzum records, and I've bought Emperor records (Bard Faust murdered a homosexual man) and I think that what he's trying to do is somehow imply that we share their ideals just because we buy a cd, which I find offensive. To bring up an earlier example, does he hate Jewish people just because he's watched Mad Max? Ever watch a Charleton Heston movie? How do you feel about guns?
> 
> Like you say, where do you draw the line? It's a dumb argument, and offensive. You can play the what if game all day. What if his favorite actor raped and murdered a nun? What if his favorite band molested a kid? What if? What the hell does any of that have to do with anything?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

I don't really connect the 2 at all. Like I said, I wouldn't personally go so far as to not give them my money (see my previous post), so I would in fact buy a Splawn amp. Doesn't mean I don't think Christianity as a whole is a disgusting institution 

Like I said, I respect anyone's right to believe in whatever misguided lunacy they want, whether it be aliens/Odin/whatever flavour of the week Varg is into, or a cosmic Jewish zombie, doesn't mean I have to respect it in the slightest


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 26, 2010)

Randy said:


> I might just play deliberately ignorant, but I've never really made it a habit over-think where my money goes when I purchase stuff. Considering 90% of the money you spend in a normal day unavoidably goes to either corporations that promote slave wages or corrupt officials, I don't think giving business to a small business owner is a big deal; even if they promote or fund certain ideals that you're not totally into.
> 
> EDIT: Seems kinda extreme to consider an entire religion as the enemy, don't you think? Like, that's the sorta extremism or black/white arguments that we're poo-pooing those religions for in the first place, ain't it?



I am full agreement with this post 

If you _really_ think about, we have very little control over where our money goes. In fact, the majority of my money probably ends up in the hands of people I find far more deplorable that a Christian doing good business.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

At least those people are probably taxed a bit though, despite huge write offs  I don't think the church gets taxed on donations/etc.


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2010)

I just thought the point of the post from the other thread was to not polarize people who believe differently from you as "the enemy" to the extent of not purchasing their goods and/or products over a difference in ideals. This post: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/1833304-post54.html started to sound like rationalization of it, and I found the two ideas to conflict with one another. 

Reading both closer, it sounds more like you're playing devil's advocate, which makes more sense. "I wouldn't make such a big deal about it, but I can understand somebody's reasoning if they decided to take it to that extreme."


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> At least those people are probably taxed a bit though, despite huge write offs  I don't think the church gets taxed on donations/etc.



No more than any non profit, including Muslim, Buddhist, non-religious and anti-religion organizations.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

Randy said:


> A wise man once said:



Also, to kind of expand on what I said, I don't think that this company should NOT be allowed to put religious crap on it's product. Anyone should have that right. It's the direct funding from the government buying these that's the issue. I don't have a problem with private citizens buying stuff, or hell, giving their own money to the church if they should so choose, but to spend tax payers money on religion is just not cool. Someone else nailed it, there should be a separation of church and state, not that that has really happened  But ideally there should be.

I spend my money on Burzum records, knowing that Varg may very well use the money on hate speech. How would you feel if tax payers money went to fund it? What I choose to do and what the government should do are different things.


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I spend my money on Burzum records, knowing that Varg may very well use the money on hate speech. How would you feel if tax payers money went to fund it? What I choose to do and what the government should do are different things.



QFT


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

Randy said:


> I just thought the point of the post from the other thread was to not polarize people who believe differently from you as "the enemy" to the extent of not purchasing their goods and/or products over a difference in ideals. This post: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/1833304-post54.html started to sound like rationalization of it, and I found the two ideas to conflict with one another.
> 
> Reading both closer, it sounds more like you're playing devil's advocate, which makes more sense. "I wouldn't make such a big deal about it, but I can understand somebody's reasoning if they decided to take it to that extreme."



Yeah, Devil's advocate (maybe a little too literally ) was what I was going for. Like I said, I e-mailed Splawn and they were cool shit, got back to me quickly, didn't start with any Jesus speak, or shit talk my e-mail address which is kind of anti-Christian 

Plus, wouldn't it be way more bad ass to buy one of his amps and use it to play black metal or something?


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## hairychris (Jan 26, 2010)

Which is why I don't spend my money on Burzum records as I'm hoping that he'll shut up & go away... 

JJ: In that case buy one used so they don't get the cash either. 

EDIT 2: And make sure that "Necrogashfister uses Splawn Amplification exclusively" is plastered everywhere!


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

Dude, he'll never shut up and go away  Not that I want him to, I like his black metal stuff. Hopefully the new Burzum will be a return to form for him


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## ElRay (Jan 26, 2010)

infinitycomplex said:


> Huh...weird. In the years I spent with the Army, I've fired a shit load of different weapon systems, including scoped rifles, and I never saw anything like they explained.


Looking at the pictures, it seems that it's just the ACOG's that the Army would have that might have had the passages encoded in the serial number. The first time I've seen non-SOG-ish (Special Operations Group) with ACOGs (other than folks that spent their own money on them) were National Guard troops whose's states had more cash to burn than typical.

Ray


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jan 26, 2010)

Last link of my sig. Please take the time to read.


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 26, 2010)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Last link of my sig. Please take the time to read.




That was a good read. E-rep for you. Cheers


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## Metal Ken (Jan 26, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Like it or not, Christians are a part of our countries and they're not going away any time soon. So what if some of it goes to the church? You are aware that Christianity helps fund charities too?



Yeah, lots of groups help fund charities. So do Jews, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, Taoists, Zoroastrians, etc. The Mafia also gives money to charity to help with public image. Just cause you give to charity doesn't mean you're sinless.



Bloody_Inferno said:


> Last link of my sig. Please take the time to read.



It kinda makes some leaps, but it was humorous. The biggest mistake it makes is that atheism is a religion. It's not. It's a lack of one.


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 26, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> Yeah, lots of groups help fund charities. So do Jews, Muslims, atheists, Buddhists, Taoists, Zoroastrians, etc. The Mafia also gives money to charity to help with public image. Just cause you give to charity doesn't mean you're sinless.



So, let me know if I'm putting words in your mouth (b/c I'm afraid that I might be doing it), you would only buy products from companies that you deem sinless (or let's say morally/ethically sound)?


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jan 26, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> It kinda makes some leaps, but it was humorous. The biggest mistake it makes is that atheism is a religion. It's not. It's a lack of one.


 
That's right. While there's so much more the article can elaborate on, it does make a valid point across.  Plus it was entertainingly funny. 

....kinda like how being Anti Marketing becomes a great Market. But that's another story...


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 26, 2010)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> That's right. While there's so much more the article can elaborate on, it does make a valid point across.  Plus it was entertainingly funny.



I found it entertaining b/c being a Moderate Christian myself, I've longed for the fighting to stop. As a person that was an athiest for the first 20 years of my life, I'm looked down upon by other atheists b/c I "joined the dark side" and somehow became "irrational". And as a Christian, I'm looked down upon b/c I still listen to bands like Slayer, I still have an occasional alcoholic beverage and cigarette, and I have a great disposition to not proselytize. I know how it feels to be on both sides of the field and that's why I can empathize with both of them. It's also the reason that I hate the bashing from both sides that goes on in this forum. It sucks being stuck in the middle. I can imagine that this is how a child feels when his parents are in the process of getting a hate-filled divorce.


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## JohnIce (Jan 26, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> ... In fact, the majority of my money probably ends up in the hands of people I find far more deplorable that a Christian doing good business.


 
"_Perhaps the most revolting character that the United States ever produced was the Christian businessman_" - H.L. Mencken



On-topic, I have all the respect for people who choose to be Christians. And I also try to be tolerant to people who were born into it. I'm an agnostic, meaning I don't deny the existance of God or think I know something that religious people don't, I'm just completely unconvinced that God exists, or for that matter, has existed. If I ever find proof I'll gladly stand corrected, but so far that hasn't happened.

That said, I agree that God, or any other deity, has no place in politics or any politically supported business. Like JJ said, where you put your own money is completely up to you, but when tax money is used to fund and favour a religious organization, and in this case propaganda from that organization, I think it's unacceptable. I also believe there are plenty of soldiers using these gun sights, who are not christians and maybe even jewish, muslim, hindu etc. America is one of the most culturally diverse and immigrated countries in the world, there are bound to be people in the military who aren't of european catholic descent.

The costs of engraving these few letters on a gun sight, or printing "In God we Trust" on a bill for that matter, is microscopic. But when we're talking large quantities as these, it adds up to a bulk of money that would, in the end, be of more use for something actually beneficial for everyone. But it's a matter of principle more than economics, really.


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## 777timesgod (Jan 26, 2010)

ElRay said:


> Because we're supposed to have separation of Church and State, yet so many Christians try to use the government to ram their religious views down everybody's throats. It's even worse when they use their distorted version of history (That the U.S. is based on a Judeo/Christian "laws" and/or was set-up as a Christian theocracy) to justify it.
> 
> 
> Ray



Interesting, every american i've met (from drunk metalheads to uni lecturers) seems to be hell bent on avoiding being branded as a devoted christian.

I am more of a paganist myself i believe each country should believe in a religion based on its mythologies and history. After all lets not be naive, when things get rough most of the people need someone/something to ask help from. Despite if we all dont believe in it there cant be a gap in the matter of religion, people dont accept it for better or for worse.


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## Customisbetter (Jan 26, 2010)

im fairly certain that it costs literally nothing to put those 4 or 5 characters on those sights.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 26, 2010)

The issue isn't the cost of putting them on, it's the government buying religious propaganda.


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## BigPhi84 (Jan 26, 2010)

I just wonder how much it's going to cost the company to do this voluntary recall.


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## Demiurge (Jan 26, 2010)

There are two different ways to look at it:

One could be that the verse is printed there to give comfort to the soldier (if they are religious) who has to carry that gun daily and possibly use it to take a life and has to resolve that with their conscience and faith.

The second way to look at it is the sinister conclusion that most have reached: the bible verse on the weapon _qua_ symbol of the horrors of war under the byline of American-gun nut-Christian-Fundamentalist-Imperialism. 

Can it be a little of both?


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## Metal Ken (Jan 26, 2010)

BigPhi84 said:


> So, let me know if I'm putting words in your mouth (b/c I'm afraid that I might be doing it), you would only buy products from companies that you deem sinless (or let's say morally/ethically sound)?



Kinda. What I'm getting at is that the company in and of itself should not be religious. Its solely a legal entity. I don't care if the person behind the company is religious, either. What I do care about is when companies start using their platform of companies to proselytize. 

For example, the Florida grocery chain Publix is technically a "Christian" company, but you wouldn't know it unless you did research into the company or unless you worked there. Conversely, Chik-Fil-a, for example, makes it a point that they are a Christ-oriented company, and at their locations, they go out of their way to explain who they are and why they're closed on Sundays, and don't hide the fact they're involved with christian organizations. Lots of Christians go far out of their way to only do business with Christian companies and associate with Christians, or only run christian businesses. There's Christian white pages and the like as well. 

I just prefer not to shop at stores like that or deal with companies like that. I don't like the MO, and I think they're really missing the point of the endeavor.




777timesgod said:


> Interesting, every american i've met (from drunk metalheads to uni lecturers) seems to be hell bent on avoiding being branded as a devoted christian.



Thats because you've only met with the two single least religious groups possible in America, Academia/science & heavy metal


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## Randy (Jan 26, 2010)

Metal Ken said:


> I just prefer not to shop at stores like that or deal with companies like that.



You're missing out, dude.


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## Metal Ken (Jan 26, 2010)

Randy said:


> You're missing out, dude.



I saw "Modern Marvels: Hot Dogs" on the history channel, and i dont think i can ever eat hot dogs again.


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