# What's the best low wattage / small amp for hi-gain



## TMM (Jan 6, 2009)

I think I'm finally happy with my live setup (for the time being), and I'm looking for a low-wattage, small amplifier that will still have a good hi-gain tone at lower volumes, and has a good enough tone that it could potentially be used for recording. It also has to be within a reasonable budget, so don't bother telling me how nice your Bogner Duende sounds. I'm okay with having to boost the amp if necessary... I can't think of many amps that don't sound better with my trusty ZW-44 in front of them.

These are the amps I've found that I'm interested in so far, but almost none of them are available locally for me to try out. I tried YouTube, and was floored at how many people can play emotionless blues riffs and bad Metallica covers. Needless to say, I really couldn't find anything that told me whether or not these amps were decent for hi-gain tones.

So, have you tried these out, and if so, what did you think? Any recommendations, or amps I'm missing?

In no particular order:
1) Ibanez ValBee
2) Laney Lionheart
3) Bogner Alchemist
4) Blackheart BH5H
5) Egnater Rebel
6) Krank Rev Jr (& Pro)
7) Hughes & Ketter Cream Machine
8) Hughes & Kettner Metal Shredder
9) Orange Tiny Terror
10) Zvex Nano
11) Epiphone Valve Junior

Within that list, I've been able to try the Cream Machine, the Alchemist, and the Tiny Terror so far, and I particularly liked the Alchemist.

Any help will be much appreciated... thank you!


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## budda (Jan 6, 2009)

i've only heard PSP's rebel clips out of the lot (havent hit up the TT thread..) and that thing very well may do what you ask!

although i do recall a Rev Jr video from soooomewhere - and i was impressed.

how low wattage are we talking about? boost (or double-boost?) an 18W plexi clone and go nuts...? haha


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## drenzium (Jan 6, 2009)

ive heard some brutal tones from a tiny terror somewhere, thats pretty much the only one i can think of at the top of my head that i've heard from that list of yours


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## TMM (Jan 6, 2009)

budda said:


> how low wattage are we talking about?



The 2 H&K's are 1w a piece, so pretty low. Doesn't need to be that low, though.


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## budda (Jan 6, 2009)

I think an 18W plexi boosted and EQ'd to be at least mostly metal would be pretty awesome - and then, i think about how much that 18W plexi copy might cost


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## warlock7strEMG (Jan 7, 2009)

TMM said:


> I think I'm finally happy with my live setup (for the time being), and I'm looking for a low-wattage, small amplifier that will still have a good hi-gain tone at lower volumes, and has a good enough tone that it could potentially be used for recording. It also has to be within a reasonable budget, so don't bother telling me how nice your Bogner Duende sounds. I'm okay with having to boost the amp if necessary... I can't think of many amps that don't sound better with my trusty ZW-44 in front of them.
> 
> These are the amps I've found that I'm interested in so far, but almost none of them are available locally for me to try out. I tried YouTube, and was floored at how many people can play emotionless blues riffs and bad Metallica covers. Needless to say, I really couldn't find anything that told me whether or not these amps were decent for hi-gain tones.
> 
> ...



i used to own an Epi Valve Junior and while it wasnt the most ideal for high gain, i had pretty good results with using a Metal Zone and a Radial Hot British pedal. with a pedal in front it definately worked and would do pretty good as either a studio or mic'd up live amp. definately requires more than an overdrive to get into high gain territory, even a tubescreamer with the drive and level maxed would barely get it into Slayer and old Metallica territoy, plus you still had to crank the fuck out of the amp itself to do this so im not sure this amp is what you are lookin for. plus experimenting with findin good distortion pedals can get annoying and pricey.

if you really want a good high gain low watt all tube monster, definately check out the Krank Rev Jr Pro. i was seriously blown away by this little fella. the Kleen channel has a very nice chimey super clean sound to it and the Krank channel is aggressive as fuck; has gain and clarity for days, not to mention it can get loud as fuck, but still sounds good without havin to be cranked up a ton(thanks to bein 20 watts). has a nice full but tight sound and handles 7 strings/low tuning very well. also has the EQ sweep knob for the Krank channel just like the 100 watt and newer 120 watt Revolutions do, which is very useful for fine tuning your tone. bein that both the head and matchin cabs are pretty small, its pretty portable if need be and doesnt take up much room. and while it sounds great on the matchin 1x12 cabs, i even tried it on a 320 watt 4x12 cab and it sounded amazing!! it pushed the fuck out of that 4x12 cab if need be without sounding the least bit weak or underpowered.

i played both the Rev Jr Standard and the Pro and the Pro wins on every front. the Pro has more gain on tap and just sounds better, also has footswitchable channels with seperate EQ for both channels, whereas the Standard has shared EQ for both channels and is not footswitchable. so definately make sure you check out the Pro version. im plannin on gettin one myself in the next few months.


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## playstopause (Jan 7, 2009)

I can't tell you how much i love my Egnater Rebel. So much features for the price... Only downside, imo, is that it's a single channel amp. Otherwise, it f*ckin' rocks!


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## TMM (Jan 7, 2009)

warlock7strEMG said:


> i used to own an Epi Valve Junior and while it wasnt the most ideal for high gain, i had pretty good results with using a Metal Zone and a Radial Hot British pedal. with a pedal in front it definately worked and would do pretty good as either a studio or mic'd up live amp. definately requires more than an overdrive to get into high gain territory, even a tubescreamer with the drive and level maxed would barely get it into Slayer and old Metallica territoy, plus you still had to crank the fuck out of the amp itself to do this so im not sure this amp is what you are lookin for. plus experimenting with findin good distortion pedals can get annoying and pricey.
> 
> if you really want a good high gain low watt all tube monster, definately check out the Krank Rev Jr Pro. i was seriously blown away by this little fella. the Kleen channel has a very nice chimey super clean sound to it and the Krank channel is aggressive as fuck; has gain and clarity for days, not to mention it can get loud as fuck, but still sounds good without havin to be cranked up a ton(thanks to bein 20 watts). has a nice full but tight sound and handles 7 strings/low tuning very well. also has the EQ sweep knob for the Krank channel just like the 100 watt and newer 120 watt Revolutions do, which is very useful for fine tuning your tone. bein that both the head and matchin cabs are pretty small, its pretty portable if need be and doesnt take up much room. and while it sounds great on the matchin 1x12 cabs, i even tried it on a 320 watt 4x12 cab and it sounded amazing!! it pushed the fuck out of that 4x12 cab if need be without sounding the least bit weak or underpowered.
> 
> i played both the Rev Jr Standard and the Pro and the Pro wins on every front. the Pro has more gain on tap and just sounds better, also has footswitchable channels with seperate EQ for both channels, whereas the Standard has shared EQ for both channels and is not footswitchable. so definately make sure you check out the Pro version. im plannin on gettin one myself in the next few months.



Thanks for such an in-depth review!



playstopause said:


> I can't tell you how much i love my Egnater Rebel. So much features for the price... Only downside, imo, is that it's a single channel amp. Otherwise, it f*ckin' rocks!



Single-channel doesn't bother me at all. Does it still get a good high-gain tone? Also, have you ever had the chance to play the Tourmaster? If so, does the Rebel sound similar? Because I loved the Tourmaster.

I really appreciate the feedback!


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## WarriorOfMetal (Jan 7, 2009)

I got to play around with TemjinStrife's Tiny Terror (wow, that sounds wrong, taken out of context ), and I thought it was surprisingly cool...in fact, I even liked it better than JJ's Framus Dragon


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## TMM (Jan 7, 2009)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> I got to play around with TemjinStrife's Tiny Terror (wow, that sounds wrong, taken out of context ), and I thought it was surprisingly cool...in fact, I even liked it better than JJ's Framus Dragon



Doesn't really surprise me... I had a Dragon for about a month before I got tired of it and parted ways. That's a story for another thread though!

I'm actually thinking I might just try to acquire a number of these and compare them head-to-head, and then keep whichever I like best. I've done a lot of research, and I think it really comes down to these (and in this order):
1) Bogner Alchemist
2) Egnater Rebel
3) Krank Rev Jr Pro
4) Orange Tiny Terror
<--5) Laney Lionheart-->
<--6) Blackheart BH5H-->

The last 2 are questionable... I wouldn't mind adding the Lionheart to the list, but it's a little pricy for this experiment, and I didn't hear enough good soundclips to justify the price. Although the Alchemist is in a similar price range, it makes up for it by sounding incredible. And the Blackheart also seems pretty questionable in terms of it's ability to really get a good metal tone, but if I find one cheaply enough, I may still give it a try.


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## sepherus (Jan 7, 2009)

I had a good run with both the 112 and 212 Alchemists on monday. they are really cool amps. They are "low wattage" but you could easily play a small gig with them. I think if Matt Pike were to ever play one, he would want one. They aren't really tight and the mids are really wooly over about 3 or 4, and the highs sound a bit fuzzy. This may be a huge turn off for some of you but it made me like the amp more. The G12H30 112 and G12H30/Greenback combo in the 212 have a lot to do with some of that I'm sure. I was playing it with a LP classic, and no boost. The onboard boost just adds a touch of mids and gain w/o really effecting any thing else. The clean channel was really nice too.


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## Piledriver (Jan 7, 2009)

you can get some cool stuff with Orange Tiny Terror with a big boost and an EQ.
i would look for the blackheart BH15H AKA the Handsome Devil,15 watts,and has EQ unlike the tiny terror,and has gain control also.

BTW,hows the rebel really for high gain metal stuff?


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## TMM (Jan 7, 2009)

sepherus said:


> I had a good run with both the 112 and 212 Alchemists on monday. they are really cool amps. They are "low wattage" but you could easily play a small gig with them. I think if Matt Pike were to ever play one, he would want one. They aren't really tight and the mids are really wooly over about 3 or 4, and the highs sound a bit fuzzy. This may be a huge turn off for some of you but it made me like the amp more. The G12H30 112 and G12H30/Greenback combo in the 212 have a lot to do with some of that I'm sure. I was playing it with a LP classic, and no boost. The onboard boost just adds a touch of mids and gain w/o really effecting any thing else. The clean channel was really nice too.



Yeah, I've played the 112 Alchemist a number of times now, and loved it every time. Last time I played it, I also tried it as a head, unplugging the internal speaker, and plugging the amp into a Fender Supersonic 212 (V30s), which sounded phenomenal.


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## Ishan (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm toying with the idea of getting the 5/3w Blackheart combo with a good distortion pedal in front like a Blackstar Dual or DistX... Maybe not  (or latter  )


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## budda (Jan 7, 2009)

Jason, you're aware you could gig with a 1W 112 combo right? wattage doesnt dictate gigability...


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## Herrseigneur (Jan 8, 2009)

This world needs a 5w Mesa Rectifier





sorta Tiny Rectifier?


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## The Atomic Ass (Jan 8, 2009)

Herrseigneur said:


> This world needs a 5w Mesa Rectifier
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Already workin' on it.


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## Harry (Jan 8, 2009)

budda said:


> I think an 18W plexi boosted and EQ'd to be at least mostly metal would be pretty awesome - and then, i think about how much that 18W plexi copy might cost



Those are frightening loud for their size too
They give 80 watt solid states a run for their money.


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## Fiz (Jan 8, 2009)

What about Blackstar HT-5? I just ordered one along with an Orange 112 for home use.. Could post something when I get the package.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jan 8, 2009)

Herrseigneur said:


> This world needs a 5w Mesa Rectifier




Or a mesa belt clip amp. That would seriously pwn.


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## Piledriver (Jan 8, 2009)

the world needs a 5 watt ENGL/Mesa or just something high gain.
but yeah,you can get along pretty good with a Tiny Terror and a boost with some distortion from it.

and Fiz,as you get the HT-5 please post some brutal stuff,id like to hear what is it capable of.


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## darren (Jan 8, 2009)

budda said:


> I think an 18W plexi boosted and EQ'd to be at least mostly metal would be pretty awesome - and then, i think about how much that 18W plexi copy might cost



Starting at $1100 from Trinity Amps here in Toronto:
Trinity Amps - Trinity 18

And if you're handy with a soldering iron, they're available in kit form as well. 

I heard a guy in a club play through a head + 212 Trinity 18w Marshall clone that he and his brother built, and it sounded absolutely spectacular. Definitely not a metal amp, but it had some of the best rock tones i've heard, for sure.


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## TMM (Jan 8, 2009)

Fiz said:


> What about Blackstar HT-5? I just ordered one along with an Orange 112 for home use.. Could post something when I get the package.



Sure, I'd love to hear it. Definitely aim for high-gain


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## budda (Jan 8, 2009)

*a dimed 18W amp is NOT gonna be much quieter then a cranked up 100W amp...*

darren, the Trinity's are Canadian made . but for cost for a completed amp, Ceriatone is the way to go.


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## jymellis (Jan 8, 2009)

im a peavey fan


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## darren (Jan 8, 2009)

budda said:


> *a dimed 18W amp is NOT gonna be much quieter then a cranked up 100W amp...*
> 
> darren, the Trinity's are Canadian made . but for cost for a completed amp, Ceriatone is the way to go.



The Ceriatone "complete amps" are a little less expensive, but i think the Trinity versions have more features... it's hard to tell because Ceriatone's site includes absolutely NO information about the features and specs of their different 18W amp variations. Trinity appears to be evolving the amp designs slightly, adding tone stacks boosts and channel switching.


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## Bound (Jan 8, 2009)

I saw you had the Laney Lionheart on there, but I think the TT20 would probably be a more economical choice, and imho a better sounding amp.


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## playstopause (Jan 8, 2009)

TMM said:


> Single-channel doesn't bother me at all. Does it still get a good high-gain tone? Also, have you ever had the chance to play the Tourmaster? If so, does the Rebel sound similar? Because I loved the Tourmaster.
> 
> I really appreciate the feedback!



Never had a chance to play the Tourmaster, so I can't tell.

The Rebel is ok for high gain, but with a boost (IMO). I use my Bloody Murder with the level almost maxed out in front of it (+ I use an EQ in the loop to bring the overall output down so I can crank the master and push the tubes some more). It could also use some other tubes (higher gain) than the stock ones, wich are GT Sovtek. I pna to change them at some point, just to see.

FWIW, here's a couple of _quick_ vids I made :







You can find many other clips by other users on youtube.


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## Deschain (Jan 8, 2009)

Fiz said:


> What about Blackstar HT-5?



Good call. They look pretty neat. Expensive though....


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## budda (Jan 8, 2009)

darren said:


> The Ceriatone "complete amps" are a little less expensive, but i think the Trinity versions have more features... it's hard to tell because Ceriatone's site includes absolutely NO information about the features and specs of their different 18W amp variations. Trinity appears to be evolving the amp designs slightly, adding tone stacks boosts and channel switching.




i haven't hit up the trinity site yet, cheers for the features info .

I think Ceriatone lists the specs of their amps


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## TMM (Jan 8, 2009)

The Blackstar HT-5H and Laney TT20 are definitely entering the list... those look very promising. The Blackstar is actually reasonably affordable, and I've been curious about their amps anyway.

1) Bogner Alchemist
2) Egnater Rebel
3) Krank Rev Jr Pro
4) Blackstar HT-5H
5) Orange Tiny Terror
6) Laney TT20
<--7) Laney Lionheart-->
<--8) Blackheart BH5H-->


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## gunshow86de (Jan 8, 2009)

I know it's not on your list, but you should check out a Mesa F-30 combo. At 30 watts it's quiet enough for practice (I live in a 1 bedroom apartment). It has excellent metal tone when you hit the contour switch, the sound is somewhat like older Dual Rectifiers. It also has direct outputs for recording.


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## darren (Jan 8, 2009)

I love my F-30.


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## TMM (Jan 8, 2009)

Wow... I just looked up the Blackstar HT-5H on YouTube, etc, and that is a pretty damn nice sounding amp for $300 new. That may have to come into my possession sooner rather than later.

I mean, I know this isn't 'metal', persay, but...


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## -Cetanu- (Jan 9, 2009)

ENGL E530 ? (it has a stereo 1.5 watt power amp)


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## killiansguitar (Jan 9, 2009)

gunshow86de said:


> I know it's not on your list, but you should check out a Mesa F-30 combo. At 30 watts it's quiet enough for practice (I live in a 1 bedroom apartment). It has excellent metal tone when you hit the contour switch, the sound is somewhat like older Dual Rectifiers. It also has direct outputs for recording.





darren said:


> I love my F-30.



Agreed. I just scooped up an F-30 combo last tuesday, and my god i havent even fired up my Mark IV since. Spectacular little amp.


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## Fiz (Jan 9, 2009)

Here's a pretty decent Blackstar HT-5 clip covering sounds a bit more on the heavier side too!


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## newfinator (Jan 9, 2009)

I haven't heard anyone mention the Hughes & Kettner Metal Shredder for years. I have one and it's a pretty cool little thing, though the Blackstar is easily better as are some others on your list. When I use it I run it through a 4x12 Marshall. If I recall George Lynch used it one something a very long time ago.


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## darren (Jan 9, 2009)

killiansguitar said:


> Agreed. I just scooped up an F-30 combo last tuesday, and my god i havent even fired up my Mark IV since. Spectacular little amp.


I'd love to try it through a big 4x12. Even using a pair of 1x12 Thiele cabs, my li'l F-30 head is LOUD and sounds HUGE!


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## ToTheCore92 (Jan 9, 2009)

You should look into the ENGL fireball or the screamer. ENGL has a tendency of sounding pretty damn good at low volumes IMO. the fireball is 60 watt and screamer is 50, both all tube. the screamer runs for around $1K new and the fireball $1.4K. you can find one used pretty cheap though, i got a fireball for around 650 used. they have the ENGL sparkling cleans and the thrust you by the balls distortion  i would look into those.


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## -Cetanu- (Jan 9, 2009)

ToTheCore92 said:


> the fireball is 60 watt


The truth is.. the fireball only has 30-35 watt.


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## TMM (Jan 9, 2009)

ToTheCore92 said:


> You should look into the ENGL fireball or the screamer. ENGL has a tendency of sounding pretty damn good at low volumes IMO. the fireball is 60 watt and screamer is 50, both all tube. the screamer runs for around $1K new and the fireball $1.4K. you can find one used pretty cheap though, i got a fireball for around 650 used. they have the ENGL sparkling cleans and the thrust you by the balls distortion  i would look into those.



With the exception of the Alchemist, you may have noted that everything else on the (important part of) the list can be obtained for around $300-$400 (depending on the amp, new or used), so either of those is definitely pushing the limits.

That, and I actually don't like either amp. I've played both, as well as the Invader, the SE, the 620, and the 530, and the ENGL tone just doesn't seem to do it for me. I much prefer just about anything I've played from H&K for my German tones.


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## -Cetanu- (Jan 9, 2009)

TMM said:


> I much prefer just about anything I've played from H&K for my German tones.


Great Amps.


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## TMM (Jan 9, 2009)

-Cetanu- said:


> Great Amps.



Truth.

I was about to edit my previous post to add Bogner to that statement, but aside from the Alchemist and Uberschall, I never really liked those much either. The Shiva and Metropolis just were not my style at all. Even the Uberschall was a little on the edge of what I would want for a tone, but made up for it with enormous testicular fortitude.

[/thread derail]


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