# Kahler without a locking nut?



## Dusty201087 (Apr 29, 2009)

Just wondering if a 7 string Kahler trem would work with locking tuners rather than a locking nut. Or does the locking nut on the Kahler really screw with the tuning like the floyd rose? 

I'm asking because I may be doing a custom sometime soon () and I want a flat radius fret board and no locking nut. But I'd rather not have the problems with the OFR and it's 16" radius set up. I was going for something more "vintage" like a JP7 bridge or maybe another fender style vibrato, but I can't really find too many of those.

EDIT: When I say "vintage" I do not mean a dive only trem. I still want my trem to be full floating. Sorry for the confusion.


----------



## SnowfaLL (Apr 29, 2009)

I am kinda in the same situation, well, least I would love if it could work..

The Hipshot trem is pretty neat, im definately getting that on one of my two customs.. but I think it is dive only, not floating like the JP7.. If only the JP7 was available as a stand-alone =[


----------



## Variant (Apr 30, 2009)

They *can* help (locking tuners that is), and in conjunction with a slick graphite / lubricated nut or roller nut it would even more stable. Chris Broderick sports a Floyd > Graphtec Nut > Planet Waves locking tuners combo. That said, *nothing* will be as stable as a locking nut though, plus there's advantages in bending feel / effort that a locking nut imparts that the others cannot.


----------



## Dusty201087 (Apr 30, 2009)

NickCormier said:


> I am kinda in the same situation, well, least I would love if it could work..
> 
> The Hipshot trem is pretty neat, im definately getting that on one of my two customs.. but I think it is dive only, not floating like the JP7.. If only the JP7 was available as a stand-alone =[



The JP7 bridge was my first choice as well 



Variant said:


> They *can* help (locking tuners that is), and in conjunction with a slick graphite / lubricated nut or roller nut it would even more stable. Chris Broderick sports a Floyd > Graphtec Nut > Planet Waves locking tuners combo. That said, *nothing* will be as stable as a locking nut though, plus there's advantages in bending feel / effort that a locking nut imparts that the others cannot.



Yeah, I just don't really NEED the super dive bomes/dime squeals, I use a floating bridge for just subtle vibrato. It's more a convenience thing, really. 

Does anyone know if any of the Ibanez bridges are/could be set up for a flat radius fret board?


----------



## Panterica (Apr 30, 2009)

use a Kahler and Locking tuners and i dont forsee many probs


----------



## hufschmid (Apr 30, 2009)

I can speak up because I built this guitar with a 7 string kahler and a delrin nut...

It will not work, and never come back in tune perfectly...

But I also set it to non tremolo for this guitar....

If you are going to use the tremolo you need a looking nut... 

Looking tuners dont actually help that much because of the nut slots, if the nut slots are not perfectly lubricated, the strings will not come back in tune...


----------



## Variant (Apr 30, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> I can speak up because I built this guitar with a 7 string kahler and a delrin nut...
> 
> It will not work, and never come back in tune perfectly...
> 
> ...



Correct, but if you put a good roller nut on an axe with conventional tuners, then you'll loose tuning stability to the strings slacking at the posts... it's the combination of both that yields pretty good results... but not excellent ones. Locking nuts aren't that much hassle really (think of the time you have to take to lock a tuner, or lubricate a nut, or both), I honestly can't see where the advantage is. 

Honestly, a solution like Seinberger trem is the correct answer, because the tuner/fine tuner mechanism are the *same thing*... the same could be said about the Floyd Rose Speedloader. The downfall of either of these systems is the limited choice in special strings... and that's why an eight string version of this baby's going on my next custom:






A Floyd Rose fulcrum type bridge with tuners designed for headless guitars.


----------



## Panterica (Apr 30, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> I can speak up because I built this guitar with a 7 string kahler and a delrin nut...
> 
> It will not work, and never come back in tune perfectly...
> 
> ...



oh yeah


----------



## Dusty201087 (Apr 30, 2009)

Hey thanks for all the responses guys  positive rep is coming your way!

And I think I'll look around for more "vintage" style bridges, but for now I think a Kahler with a locking nut (despite the sustain/tuning issues) will suffice. I think I'll keep the bridge locked most of the time, but it'd be really nice to be able to do the crazy pitch bends when I actually want to.


----------



## Ishan (Apr 30, 2009)

hufschmid said:


> I can speak up because I built this guitar with a 7 string kahler and a delrin nut...
> 
> It will not work, and never come back in tune perfectly...
> 
> ...



Hey, I can totally see this working with a custom made roller nut


----------



## SnowfaLL (May 1, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> Hey thanks for all the responses guys  positive rep is coming your way!
> 
> And I think I'll look around for more "vintage" style bridges, but for now I think a Kahler with a locking nut (despite the sustain/tuning issues) will suffice. I think I'll keep the bridge locked most of the time, but it'd be really nice to be able to do the crazy pitch bends when I actually want to.



I feel the exact same way, I want that "just incase" floyd, if I care to learn some crazy Vai song one day or something.. but generally I never use it.. So my plan, well my two customs Im having made, one will be a edge with a locking nut and Tremol-no.. and the other is the Hipshot 7 trem, which is what I suggest to you.

Its the best dive-only trem for 7s I think,

Hipshot 7 String Tremolo Guitar Bridge User Reviews - Guitar Bridges - Best Guitar Parts


----------



## Dusty201087 (May 1, 2009)

NickCormier said:


> I feel the exact same way, I want that "just incase" floyd, if I care to learn some crazy Vai song one day or something.. but generally I never use it.. So my plan, well my two customs Im having made, one will be a edge with a locking nut and Tremol-no.. and the other is the Hipshot 7 trem, which is what I suggest to you.
> 
> Its the best dive-only trem for 7s I think,
> 
> Hipshot 7 String Tremolo Guitar Bridge User Reviews - Guitar Bridges - Best Guitar Parts



Thing is I really want a full floating trem, even though I won't be abusing it all the time, I remember some company I think Patrick mentioned at one point that would make something like this but IDK 

Does anyone know if the Schaller floyd has the same radius as the OFR? Or if I could just buy a JP7 trem somewhere?


----------



## MTech (May 1, 2009)

no reason it wouldn't work with a good graphite nut Petrucci does it...and there's plenty of guys who use Floyds with just sperzels.


----------



## Dusty201087 (May 1, 2009)

MTech said:


> no reason it wouldn't work with a good graphite nut Petrucci does it...and there's plenty of guys who use Floyds with just sperzels.



Yeah but then I have the radius issue (the FR and the fret board not matching), which I want to avoid if possible


----------



## MTech (May 1, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> Yeah but then I have the radius issue (the FR and the fret board not matching), which I want to avoid if possible



I just went back and read that..you can always remove the shims that come stock and set the floyd so it's flat..no big deal. (I'm not knocking the kahler I just used floyd as an example) you can set the kahler totally flat that's for sure. Just make sure you get a roller nut or graphite along with sperzels.


----------



## Dusty201087 (May 1, 2009)

MTech said:


> I just went back and read that..you can always remove the shims that come stock and set the floyd so it's flat..no big deal. (I'm not knocking the kahler I just used floyd as an example) you can set the kahler totally flat that's for sure. Just make sure you get a roller nut or graphite along with sperzels.



Wait wait wait, you can remove the shims to set it flat? 

Nevermind then, my custom will have an OFR7! Thanks dude


----------



## MTech (May 1, 2009)

Well the Floyds come with a standard radius and I noticed Ibbys are very flat as well as certain ESP's have a lot flatter radius while some are more standard (yet both have floyds)... I asked Rico Jr. what was up with this and he pointed out the Tak Floyds (like on the RC7) you can order with the radius you want, and with a OFR you just remove the shims etc and it gets pretty damn flat. The ricos are all the flatter radius anymore.


----------



## Dusty201087 (May 1, 2009)

MTech said:


> Well the Floyds come with a standard radius and I noticed Ibbys are very flat as well as certain ESP's have a lot flatter radius while some are more standard (yet both have floyds)... I asked Rico Jr. what was up with this and he pointed out the Tak Floyds (like on the RC7) you can order with the radius you want, and with a OFR you just remove the shims etc and it gets pretty damn flat. The ricos are all the flatter radius anymore.



Hmmm, I really wish more people had the RC7/RC7x's now, I totally forgot about those trems and being able to order one totally flat sounds awesome  I just wonder how they hold up now . Then again, I'm sure if some of the LFR's on Agiles and the like hold up with maintence one of those would hold up as well.


----------



## technomancer (May 1, 2009)

Variant said:


> and that's why an eight string version of this baby's going on my next custom:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I can't wait for him to release the 7 / 8 string versions of that... unfortunately he had no time frame when I emailed about it 

That and his string locks being the same size as a normal tuner hole makes the design of the 'headless' part of the guitar interesting.


----------



## MTech (May 1, 2009)

Dusty201087 said:


> I just wonder how they hold up now .


 The Takahouchi Trems (or however you spell it) are what BC Rich always used they're solid. It's the typical LFR that suck and everybody bashes.


----------



## technomancer (May 2, 2009)

NickCormier said:


> I feel the exact same way, I want that "just incase" floyd, if I care to learn some crazy Vai song one day or something.. but generally I never use it.. So my plan, well my two customs Im having made, one will be a edge with a locking nut and Tremol-no.. and the other is the Hipshot 7 trem, which is what I suggest to you.
> 
> Its the best dive-only trem for 7s I think,
> 
> Hipshot 7 String Tremolo Guitar Bridge User Reviews - Guitar Bridges - Best Guitar Parts



Where did you hear these were dive-only? They're a ballbearing trem and AFAIK they're fully floating...


----------



## damigu (May 2, 2009)

with a $5 part (that wammiworld includes for free with every order), the kahler can be put into dive-bomb only mode.
so you can use it as a vintage trem if you want. that's how i currently have my 6 string kahler set (i usually keep my 7 in full trem mode).


----------



## SnowfaLL (May 2, 2009)

hows the stability with that kahler dive-only mode? things stay in tune good without a locking nut?


----------



## damigu (May 2, 2009)

it all depends on your nut. if you have a well lubed nut or a roller nut, a kahler (whether in full or dive-only mode) will return to tune just fine. provided you're doing the mild whammy work like what people use vintage trems for.

i don't have my kahler 6 locked at the nut since my last restringing, and it's been holding tune just fine with mild diving/vibrato work on the arm.

locking tuners do help the situation, but they're not a replacement for a locking nut.


----------



## Variant (May 2, 2009)

technomancer said:


> I can't wait for him to release the 7 / 8 string versions of that... unfortunately he had no time frame when I emailed about it
> 
> That and his string locks being the same size as a normal tuner hole makes the design of the 'headless' part of the guitar interesting.



That's just what he designed as a retrofit (in that case, with Strat), that said the system is compatible any sort of headpiece.


----------



## capo_fez (Feb 20, 2010)

Well, if you are still up in the air, the Floyd will be a bit better for tuning stability on the more radical dives, but the Kahler doesn't suck as much tone out of the body. It's a bit of a trade off there, but for lighter trem work, more direct tone, and smoother action, I would go Kahler. I would recomend getting a Tusq nut custom slotted for your needs. If you are wanting the tuning stability and more radical dives, with more availability for replacement parts, go OFR. I have a firm respect for both, but my preference usually goes towards Kahler. I am having a Kahler installed on my 8-string, as soon as it comes.


----------



## Andromalia (Feb 20, 2010)

I have used a MIJ strat with a recessed floyd for 15 years and actually threw the screws and nut locking stuff away as they killed my sustain, just had gotoh locking tuners that came standard with the guitar. 
I didn't change the nut, I just didn't screw the blocks on. Keeps excellent tuning stability provided of course you don't behave like Dimebag.
I guess the overall answer will be "it depends on your bridge/tuners/nut/neck scale combination". But it can work, with the good prerequisites being met.


----------



## sevenstringj (Feb 20, 2010)

If you're going custom, why can't your luthier rout it so that the Hipshot can be pulled up? I don't see anything inherent in the design that makes it "dive only." In fact, their description says "full floating" which would imply it can be pulled up as well.

And it doesn't have to be recessed either. Many Charvel, Jackson, Caparison and I'm sure others have non-recessed tremolos with routing that allows for pullups.

PS - You can get saddle shims for an OFR to conform to any radius... http://www.axcessories.com/products.asp?cat=25


----------



## Andromalia (Feb 20, 2010)

That said, in your shoes I'd...ask the luthier. This is his trade, he should have good advice if he's good.


----------



## damigu (Feb 20, 2010)

capo_fez said:


> Well, if you are still up in the air, the Floyd will be a bit better for tuning stability on the more radical dives, but the Kahler doesn't suck as much tone out of the body.



a kahler has just as much dive and pull-up capability as a floyd, and maintains the same level of tuning stability in the process.
i regularly dump my bar all the way down on my kahlers and it always comes right back to where it's supposed to be.


----------



## cradleofflames (Feb 20, 2010)

I find that any knife edge based tremolo will have effectively two in tune points; one when you pull back, the other when you dive. It's most apparent on the G string. I actually found a Kahler to be worse for this than a Floyd but not much. The reason is that unless the setup is absolutely perfect there are two zero points; the spring tensions zero point, and the mechanical zero point that the knife edge provides. I actually find a 6 point trem like a Fender or a PRS with a properly cut nut will stay in tune better than your typical setup on a knife edge trem since it only has the spring tension zero point.

If your used to a guitar with a back trem cavity the 6 point will sound better than a knife edge trem due to the body contact. Conversely a guitar without a back trem cavity will always sound better with a Kahler. The Kahler will steal resonance from the guitar when you use it due to the movement of the rollers. Also don't try to bend and bar vibrato too far up the neck, it will deaden.


----------

