# P50E vs V30 (Detailed Analysis)



## zimbloth (Sep 23, 2009)

Okay a lot of us VHT/Fryette users have been singing the praises of their P50E speakers for some time now. I get a lot of questions about them and how they compare to more common speakers like Celestion V30s, so I decided to post an article written by the guys at Steven Fryette Design below as well as on my website for you to read. Very informative.

Enjoy, and I look forward to your comments/feedback. And yes I know tone is subjective, but this article is very accurate IMO 


The P50E speaker is custom built to SFD specifications by Eminence, and is only available from Steven Fryette Design, Inc. The P50E is not an OEM version of the Eminence Redcoat or Patriot series speaker lines.

It is difficult to discuss the sonic characteristics of the P50E or any speaker for that matter, in isolation because so much of speaker behavior depends on the environment in which it is operating - that is to say, 2X12 cab, 4X12 cab, front-mount, rear-mount, wood type, construction style, playing volume, etc, etc. Having said all that lets talk about the P50E versus the popular Celestion Vintage 30 in a Fryette 4X12 FatBottom straight cab.

The P50E is actually a 50-watt speaker. The V30, although officially rated at 60 watts is in reality closer to 75 watts. The P50E has a smaller magnet than the V30, which insures that the speaker will break up at lower amplifier power than a V30. However, the V30 has a more compliant suspension, which together with the larger magnet causes the speaker to move more-low end. This also causes more distortion in the higher frequencies contributing to a harsh top end. The highly compliant suspension makes it difficult for the speaker to track low frequencies especially at high volume levels and this causes a &#8220;woofy&#8221; sound when playing staccato chording (&#8216;palm muting&#8221. It is also partly why the P50E, although lower in power handling capacity, seems to produce about as much low end as a V30, yet with better control of the low end. The smaller magnet on the P50E also contributes to a softer, more natural sounding high-end response, which is not smeared out by the sloppy suspension, as is the case with the V30. Finally, the Fryette cabinet is a front loaded type, producing a more open, well-dispersed sound. Front mounting a V30 is less desirable as the harshness on the top end, which is normally masked in a rear-mounted enclosure, is now more audible.

Another very important consideration in the comparison has to do with the age and condition of the speakers under test. The P50E is not factory &#8220;preconditioned&#8221; as many OEM speakers might be or might claim to be. This means that depending on usage, it may take as little as a month or as long as 6 months for the speaker to &#8220;break in&#8221;. A V30 will be looser and warmer out of the box, but also is brighter and tighter than it will be 4 months from now (with regular use). The V30 will mellow out a bit over time, but the low-end control issues will be exaggerated. By the same token, the P50E, while retaining good bottom end control will sweeten up and smooth out over time.

Comparing the FatBottom to the Deliverance cabs, the FatBottom series cabs loaded with the P50 speaker is considered modern sounding and exhibits lots of projection, low-end control and excellent tonal detail. The Deliverance cab on the other hand will sound warmer, looser and sweeter than the FatBottom cab even though they use the same speaker. The Deliverance cab is designed to make the speaker fatter and warmer sounding, as might happen in a traditional 4X12 cab design, but without the traditional boomy, sloppy rattling low end. The ability to identify and manipulate key elements of cabinet construction gives us control over those speaker parameters we wish to suppress or enhance.

The difference between front mounted speakers and rear mounted speakers is subtle and both methods have their pros and cons. Overall we find front mounting to be preferable. Those who would disagree must realize that it is difficult to compare based on the sound of other manufacturers cabs because construction method and material type/quality play a much larger part than mounting method in determining the sound of the cab and behavior of the speaker.

Finally, all of the above depends on the amp in response to which the speakers&#8217; mids, top and bottom will all shift around in concert with the difference in behavior between 100 watts or 50 for example. Keep in mind that this discussion assumes all speakers in the comparison are 16 ohms, as the P50E is only available in 16 ohms. This is important since the impedance of the amplifier load will dramatically affect the behavior of the amplifier due to damping factor and frequency


As someone who switched from a Mesa 4x12 w/ V30s which was my main cabinet for many years to a Fat Bottom 4x12 w/ P50Es, I feel this article is 100% spot on.


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## The Echthros (Sep 23, 2009)

cool, nick. nice and informative. we know that it is different from the V30 then...but what speaker is most comparable then?


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## zimbloth (Sep 23, 2009)

il_echthros_777 said:


> cool, nick. nice and informative. we know that it is different from the V30 then...but what speaker is most comparable then?



I really dont know I've never tried one that sounded anything like it. Maybe other guys might know.


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## sepherus (Sep 23, 2009)

il_echthros_777 said:


> cool, nick. nice and informative. we know that it is different from the V30 then...but what speaker is most comparable then?



A lot of people compare it to an Eminence Wizard. Which is odd because they are built completely differently, and are rated about 100 watts more. even Eminence people have said that it is strange but so. Personally I've never played a P50, but the Wizards are pretty awesome. So if it is true, I can see my self liking them quite a bit. I actually plan on swapping out my v30 in my 212 for a p50 some time soon just to give it a shot.


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## The Echthros (Sep 23, 2009)

yeah...I know it's kind of an odd question. truth is really I feel if you like the sound of a piece of gear, in this case a speaker, but it. don't try and find a replica. I haven't heard one though...hence the inquiry.



sepherus said:


> A lot of people compare it to an Eminence Wizard. Which is odd because they are built completely differently, and are rated about 100 watts more. even Eminence people have said that it is strange but so. Personally I've never played a P50, but the Wizards are pretty awesome. So if it is true, I can see my self liking them quite a bit. I actually plan on swapping out my v30 in my 212 for a p50 some time soon just to give it a shot.



good to know.


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## zimbloth (Sep 23, 2009)

il_echthros_777 said:


> yeah...I know it's kind of an odd question. truth is really I feel if you like the sound of a piece of gear, in this case a speaker, but it. don't try and find a replica. I haven't heard one though...hence the inquiry.
> 
> 
> 
> good to know.



Yeah I have no idea about the Eminence Wizard but I doubt its the same. And yeah the P50s are pretty reasonably priced so its not a big deal.


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## Andii (Sep 23, 2009)

I did not see this as anything but a sales pitch for the p50 cabs. This article doesn't portray the v30 accurately.

The harshness described from the V30 is not something I've experienced and I play with my head level with the speakers. The v30s top end is really smooth. The V30 has also been consistently smoother in the top end than the 3 eminence models I've owned. (swamp thang, texas heat, governor)

The article lists the larger magnet of the v30 as a negative. A larger magnet is more efficient which means it provides more sound per watt. I've also found larger magnets to be more responsive and tighter. There's nothing negative about a bigger magnet other than it's heavier.

The "compliant suspension" that is mentioned in the article is the very reason I like V30s: They kick you in the chest. They have the most impressively quick and powerful excursion I've ever seen. The woofiness described in the article only happens with a very poor amp or with a poorly set up amp.

This article reads as though V30s are utter crap. V30s are the industry standard because they are good. You might not prefer them, but there's no need to claim that they are crap and list imaginary problems.

I might would love one of these if I tried it, but this article was poor.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 23, 2009)

It's not like this is the first time someone has mentioned V30's being harsh  I hear it ALL the time, and especially from guys running the Mesa cabs. Most people on here that have a Mesa cab prefer the C90/CL80's.

Personally I like V30's, but my experience is limited to an Orange using them, which most people say pretty much cancels out all the negative crap about the V30.


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## Andii (Sep 23, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> It's not like this is the first time someone has mentioned V30's being harsh  I hear it ALL the time, and especially from guys running the Mesa cabs. Most people on here that have a Mesa cab prefer the C90/CL80's.
> 
> Personally I like V30's, but my experience is limited to an Orange using them, which most people say pretty much cancels out all the negative crap about the V30.


 
Orange cabs are made of 13 ply marine grade baltic birch(a lot of adjectives for a piece of plywood) and so are Mesa cabs. They are constructed almost identically. The big difference is aesthetics and dimensions. The dimensions do play a big role in the sound, but not enough to completely change the characteristics of a speaker. (especially since the dimensions between a mesa and orange aren't very dramatic.)

Your cab probably sounds tighter and less bassy than a mesa because of the dimensions. No doubt though that we're both experiencing the same speaker and we both like it, yet the person who wrote that article depicts the v30 as useless garbage.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 23, 2009)

Doesn't change the fact that A LOT of people have described the V30 as harsh and unusable, mostly Mesa cab users who aren't trying to sell you anything. Also I don't own the Orange, my friend did. I'm trying to order one at a music store here though, I just have to find a price they can price match in the US


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## MF_Kitten (Sep 23, 2009)

orange cabs are smaller but deeper than "typical" amps. it moves the low end resonant frequency a bit lower, so you avoid the boomyness. orange cabs sound really large and solid as a result.

v30´s sound great for certain uses, but they´re not ideal for metal. it can be done, of course, but you end up compensating for their sound instead of working with it. of course, you don´t notice this, since it´s just twiddling the eq until it sounds good, but if a speaker sounds better from the beginning, then you´ll find a good tone alot faster. you´ll also have a larger adjustment area, since you don´t have to do extreme EQs as a default.

with that said, i do use a v30 loaded 2X12 myself, and it´s not bad. it could be better, and i wish i could put "buy new speakers" on my priority list, but meh... i have a parametric EQ on my pod, so i can counteract the harshness of the v30s easily.


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## budda (Sep 23, 2009)

Ah yes, the great speaker debate.

I remember reading a post by someone who was tracking guitars for an album - he prefers the C90 live and the V30 in the studio - go figure!

I think I've heard a P50E loaded 212 or 212 combo next to a C90 set - I don't remember hearing any difference, nor do I remember putting my head up to each 212 in the room (4).


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## maat (Sep 23, 2009)

Andii said:


> I did not see this as anything but a sales pitch for the p50 cabs. This article doesn't portray the v30 accurately.
> 
> The harshness described from the V30 is not something I've experienced and I play with my head level with the speakers. The v30s top end is really smooth. The V30 has also been consistently smoother in the top end than the 3 eminence models I've owned. (swamp thang, texas heat, governor)
> 
> ...



Save your breath, Andii...the guy's a salesman.

"Yeah I have no idea about the Eminence Wizard but I doubt its the same."

^He makes statements like this...


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 23, 2009)

maat said:


> Save your breath, Andii...the guy's a salesman.
> 
> "Yeah I have no idea about the Eminence Wizard but I doubt its the same."
> 
> ^He makes statements like this...



He posted an article written by someone else dude. I don't know what you have against Nick (Zimbloth) but this isn't the first time you've come in and taken a shit on him in one of his threads. He's a long standing member here and lots of people find him pretty damn helpful, and he's also pretty damn friendly if you get him on the phone.

If you like V30's, that's fine, good for you. I like them too in the 1 cab I tried them in, doesn't mean it's not an interesting read.

And I would doubt they're exactly the same too if they're being custom built for Steve Fryette. Vader also gets custom speakers built, and they're not the same as the regular Legends you can order.


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## CentaurPorn (Sep 23, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> He posted an article written by someone else dude. I don't know what you have against Nick (Zimbloth) but this isn't the first time you've come in and taken a shit on him in one of his threads. He's a long standing member here and lots of people find him pretty damn helpful, and he's also pretty damn friendly if you get him on the phone.
> 
> If you like V30's, that's fine, good for you. I like them too in the 1 cab I tried them in, doesn't mean it's not an interesting read.
> 
> And I would doubt they're exactly the same too if they're being custom built for Steve Fryette. Vader also gets custom speakers built, and they're not the same as the regular Legends you can order.




Quoted for Truth. 

Nick is just trying..(scratch that) IS being a helpful contributing member of the forum. It does not sound like a sales pitch to me. It is a comparison between speakers. Don't read too much into things.

I find the V30's fizzy and harsh even in my Orange cab at ear level with a VHT Ultra-Lead...That's why I just sold the cab. I am not saying they sound bad..its more than usable but they could be better for sure.


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## raximkoron (Sep 23, 2009)

Wow, lotta hate being flung around 

First off, Zimbloth didn't create the article, he had just posted it, he mentioned that he didn't write it upfront; Steven Fryette was the author. Of course it's well known that he does sell Fryette products, but I didn't interpret his posting of the article as a sales and marketing pitch.

Also, my take on the article is that Steven wasn't happy with the way the V30's sounded in HIS cabinet designs and was describing HIS experiences and decision to use a different speaker thusly. There can't be THAT much wrong with the V30 design as almost every cabinet manufacturer offers them at least as an option if not standard, but it doesn't mean that it's the only speaker design that should be allowed or accepted. Tone is all subjective... and a cruel, cruel mistress.

[rant]
When I used to work in sales, I had to deal with a lot of people who thought that I was always trying to sell only the highest priced items or those that gave my company the most kickbacks. That makes it very difficult to give a personal opinion or advice since they just view you as a tool to sell overpriced merchandise rather than the wealth of knowledge and experience that you bring to the table. I sold cutlery not music equipment, but it's the same no matter what market you're in.
[/rant]

Sure you have to weed through the marketing dialect when reading press releases or other written works from a particular company, but I do feel that I have a better idea of what the P50E speakers character is like from the article.


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## sepherus (Sep 23, 2009)

Nick (Zimbloth) has been a huge proponent of this speaker since well before he became a dealer for VHT/Fryette. I remember a conversation we had once where we basically decided that the V30 is the industry standard for cabs because it is a good generic rock and blues speaker. Most people don't play metal, they play rock and blues. Thus why it is a standard. 

As for the Wizard, I never said they were the same, but similar. The Wizard has a prety broad and large midrange, a nice tight low end and the top starts to get a little crunch when you add some drive. No frequencies are peaky or harsh like some speakers. They cut very well with out being overbearing, unless of course the amp is. Just generally an overlooked speaker that could take over the industry if given the chance. they are constructed totally differently than the P50 but I know I've heard very similar descriptions used to describe that also. Its all in the nuances of tone.


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## TMM (Sep 23, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Doesn't change the fact that A LOT of people have described the V30 as harsh and unusable, mostly Mesa cab users who aren't trying to sell you anything. Also I don't own the Orange, my friend did. I'm trying to order one at a music store here though, I just have to find a price they can price match in the US



Yeah, the cab / amp seems to make a big difference on whether or not the V30 is usable. In most cases, I've found it to be harsh and less desirable than other speakers. In the Recto 212 I had, using my DST-8080, I actually found the V30 to be really cold and lifeless with no projection, which was strange as it was such a contrast to the usual harsh top end but decent projection. Finally, in the Ibanez TN412B, both with the TN120 and my DST-8080, the V30 sounded huge, well-defined, and great for everything I put through it. Really strange.

I'm curious to hear a P50E in something other than a VHT cab to really get an idea of what the speaker sounds like, vs the speaker + the cab.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 23, 2009)

I've read reports of it not sounding very good in rear mount cabs, which kind of makes sense if Steve Fryette designed it to work with his cabs.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Sep 23, 2009)

personally, i'm more interested in a comparison to claasic lead 80's and c90's/c85's... i hated v30's in the vht cab i had with the UL, and wasn't impressed with the p50's in the FB2x12 i had. have wanted to try a FB4x12, but they are just too expensive for me to buy just to try out...


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## zimbloth (Sep 23, 2009)

sepherus said:


> Nic*k (Zimbloth) has been a huge proponent of this speaker since well before he became a dealer for VHT/Fryette.* I remember a conversation we had once where we basically decided that the V30 is the industry standard for cabs because it is a good generic rock and blues speaker. Most people don't play metal, they play rock and blues. Thus why it is a standard.
> 
> As for the Wizard, I never said they were the same, but similar. The Wizard has a prety broad and large midrange, a nice tight low end and the top starts to get a little crunch when you add some drive. No frequencies are peaky or harsh like some speakers. They cut very well with out being overbearing, unless of course the amp is. Just generally an overlooked speaker that could take over the industry if given the chance. they are constructed totally differently than the P50 but I know I've heard very similar descriptions used to describe that also. Its all in the nuances of tone.





JJ Rodriguez said:


> He posted an article written by someone else dude. I don't know what you have against Nick (Zimbloth) but this isn't the first time you've come in and taken a shit on him in one of his threads. He's a long standing member here and lots of people find him pretty damn helpful, and he's also pretty damn friendly if you get him on the phone.
> 
> If you like V30's, that's fine, good for you. I like them too in the 1 cab I tried them in, doesn't mean it's not an interesting read.
> 
> And I would doubt they're exactly the same too if they're being custom built for Steve Fryette. Vader also gets custom speakers built, and they're not the same as the regular Legends you can order.



Thanks for the support and kind words guys. I knew this article might ruffle some people's feathers, but regardless I found it interesting, informative and 100% true. Everyone's welcome to disagree (although experience with both speakers would be a nice touch) 



7 Dying Trees said:


> personally, i'm more interested in a comparison to claasic lead 80's and c90's/c85's... i hated v30's in the vht cab i had with the UL, and wasn't impressed with the p50's in the FB2x12 i had. have wanted to try a FB4x12, but they are just too expensive for me to buy just to try out...



The UL through a C90 cab is pretty good. Its just the C90's massive low-end response can make the UL sound darker than it should, but the overall tone is very healthy. I think the FB412 sounds a lot better with it though. Has a thick low-end but much tighter and more aggressive sounding, yet still smooth.

As for CL80s. I've never played those so I have no opinion.



Andii said:


> I did not see this as anything but a sales pitch for the p50 cabs. This article doesn't portray the v30 accurately.



I think it portrays the v30 100% accurately. No one's saying the v30 can't sound good in the right situation. However when you can directly A/B a v30 cab to a FB cab, the difference is night and day. It's much tighter, clearer, smoother mids, no harshness, better dispersion. It's really not _that _subjective, its blatantly obvious when you have both in the same room.

I should reiterate I didn't write that article and that my main cab for over 5 years was a Mesa 4x12, which sounded very good. We're talking relatively here. 



Andii said:


> The harshness described from the V30 is not something I've experienced and I play with my head level with the speakers. The v30s top end is really smooth. The V30 has also been consistently smoother in the top end than the 3 eminence models I've owned. (swamp thang, texas heat, governor)



That would be great if we were comparing the v30 to the Texas Heats or whatever, but I'm not. The speaker in question here is the P50E, which you've said you've never played. I prefer the v30 over speakers like that as well. 

Anyways, V30s most definitely have those characteristics.. Whether they sound good anyways and/or your ears are used to it is another issue. That's subjective. Certainly some cabs do a better job than others at masking their weaknesses.



Andii said:


> The woofiness described in the article only happens with a very poor amp or with a poorly set up amp.



No, again it's very real. It's not user error. Even when using the very best amps in the world through v30 cabs, the questionable bass response is apparent. It may not be obvious until you compare it to something else with better speakers. 

There's a reason a lot of amp manufacturers I talk to know all about these issues w/ v30s and are trying to phase them out from their cabinet lineup. Many use them because it's an 'industry standard' and are afraid of alienating customers who are convinced it must be standard for a good reason (usually the same people who wouldn't _dream _about playing something other than a Fender or Gibson).

Speakers are not one size fits all. The V30 is an excellent blues/classic rock speaker. That's what they were designed for. They don't handle high volume, high-gain situations etc as well as others. Things start to fall apart. And that's OK! They certainly can be great in the hands of a good audio engineer since they do have a good fundamental sound, and in the studio you can dial out the nastiness with eq, HP/LP filters, multi-band compressors, phase cancellation, and other mixing techniques.



Andii said:


> *I might would love one of these if I tried it*, but this article was poor.



Maybe you should try it before condemning Steve's (very honest) article. Again, v30s sound okay no one's saying they're unusable. But they are have obvious drawbacks anyone who is subjective & experienced should hear. Forget P50Es even, compare them to G12K100s, C90s, or other good speakers and it should be pretty clear then too.



budda said:


> I think I've heard a P50E loaded 212 or 212 combo next to a C90 set - I don't remember hearing any difference, nor do I remember putting my head up to each 212 in the room (4).



Pretty sure you're mistaken Budda. The P50E and C90 sound absolutely nothing alike. My bandmate used a C90 cab for years side by side with mine before he switched to a Fryette and it's completely different. I like the C90 a lot by the way, but the P50E is a completely different sound. You would not think they sounded alike 



maat said:


> Save your breath, Andii...the guy's a salesman.
> 
> "Yeah I have no idea about the Eminence Wizard but I doubt its the same."
> 
> ^He makes statements like this...



Yeah dude, I'm sure Steven Fryette would design a speaker that magically sounded exactly like another model already in Eminence's lineup. How far fetched to doubt that 

You're forgetting I sell V30 cabs too buddy. I just tell the truth as I see it. As someone else mentioned, I've been raving about the P50E forever (years before I contemplated starting a business). It's how I feel, so take it easy with your random bitterness towards me.

I have a great sounding Rivera 4x12 V30 cab sitting in my store that I'd love to sell, however when I've had customers wanting to buy it, I implored them to try some of the other cabs first (such as the Rivera 4x12 w/ g12k100s or something else) and the consensus is always the same. If anything I've cock-blocked myself because of my concern for people's tone.


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## MF_Kitten (Sep 23, 2009)

i find the accusations about Zim being "a salesman" on the forums kinda funny, since i´m imagining a guy sitting on a couch with some of his near friends, just hanging out, and TRYING TO SELL THEM STUFF WITH SALES PITCHES


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## maat (Sep 23, 2009)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> He posted an article written by someone else dude. I don't know what you have against Nick (Zimbloth) but this isn't the first time you've come in and taken a shit on him in one of his threads. He's a long standing member here and lots of people find him pretty damn helpful, and he's also pretty damn friendly if you get him on the phone.



I have no issue with Nick or whatever his name is...I have an issue with his dismissive statements. Still, it's not unlikely to have multiple people assume that- because I disagree with his statement that I'm attacking "his" thread.

How helpful he is to you, or any of his other loyal customers is not my concern. I'll voice my feelings on the matter agreeable or disagreeable.

[/quote=zimbloth]Yeah dude, I'm sure Steven Fryette would design a speaker that magically sounded exactly like another model already in Eminence's lineup. How far fetched to doubt that[/quote]

Lots of people have accomplished similar feats before especially within the realms of amps, analogue equipment and the like...modules and rigs can be "tweaked" ( Important word) to sound similar. Depending on perspective or intent, you can either acknowledge or dismiss this. Feel free. It a discussion forum, not a rally.


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## SpaceDock (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't know why people talk so much shit about the "harsh" highs of the V30. I think their top end sounds great, it really cuuts through the mix while retaining definition of chugs. The C90's I use to use were way too mellow for playing with a band. 

Plus the "harshness" is what makes peoples eardrums bleed.. Hahahaha


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## zimbloth (Sep 23, 2009)

SpaceDock said:


> I don't know why people talk so much shit about the "harsh" highs of the V30. I think their top end sounds great, it really cuuts through the mix while retaining definition of chugs. The C90's I use to use were way too mellow for playing with a band.
> 
> Plus the "harshness" is what makes peoples eardrums bleed.. Hahahaha



This article was just meant to point out the differences between the P50E and the V30 since I get asked about that a lot. It's not to demand that people dislike V30s. I think V30s sound can good, they have a healthy fundamental tone which is why they work well in studios. Just not good enough for me for live applications.

If you like it that's great. Some of us however prefer our highs to cut but not to be so harsh and brittle on the high-end that its 'eardrum bleeding'  P50Es cut through a live mix like a knife and project so well. They just happen to be a lot tighter and richer sounding than V30s, with less fizz. To my ears anyway.

I agree C90s are less aggressive than V30s, I wouldn't say they're 'too mellow' to use live though. It just requires a good amp/pickups.


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## budda (Sep 23, 2009)

Nick, as i clearly stated in my post, I don't remember if I had my head in front of all the speakers.

I just know 2 CLX 212's on 212 cabs in stereo sounded good 

OT: are there used Sig:X's and what's their going rate if so?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 23, 2009)

maat said:


> I have no issue with Nick or whatever his name is...I have an issue with his dismissive statements. Still, it's not unlikely to have multiple people assume that- because I disagree with his statement that I'm attacking "his" thread.
> 
> How helpful he is to you, or any of his other loyal customers is not my concern. I'll voice my feelings on the matter agreeable or disagreeable.



You didn't state an opinion on the V30.



> Save your breath, Andii...the guy's a salesman.
> 
> "Yeah I have no idea about the Eminence Wizard but I doubt its the same."
> 
> ^He makes statements like this...



You stated your opinion on Nick, which was baseless and in poor taste. And judging by your previous rep, you do have a problem with Nick because like I said, this isn't the first time you've graced his threads with your BS.


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## Apex1rg7x (Sep 23, 2009)

These clowns that keep addressing this as a "hate on V30's" article need to shutup and re-read the article. Its a simple comparison that Steve made to compare 2 different speakers that are not close to the same at all. He never once said that the V30 sucked, he was simply comparing their tonal characteristics. Nick always has a non-biased opinion on something that hes passionate about, he has more experience with different gear than almost everyone here so i take his opinions and advice. Ive bought gear from him and you wont find anyone more helpful than him.


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## yan12 (Sep 23, 2009)

Keeping my 2 cents centered on the speaker debate, I found the article to reflect what I just found out last weekend. I am in need of a new cab and have been wanting to downsize to a 2x12 for some time. I also have the good fortune of currently having some cash to spend on whatever I want, which is not always the case! Anyhow, I am a long time 7 string player (std pitch) and have been looking for that cab that can handle fast lines on the low B while retaining note definition (heavy distortion of course). I currently use a Rocca Jenelle but also performed this test with several amps, a single recto modified, a Diezel H and a Two Rock. I have two good friends that own music stores an carry different gear, one of which is high end boutique names. In 2x12, the Bogner oversize with a v30 and c80 was awesome, and the one with 2 v30's okay. Interestingly enough, a 6 year old straight 4x12 recto with v30's SMOKED with about everything. Gflex was way too woofy with a v30 and a weber. The old mesa 1/2back with bs90 on top and ev200's on bottom was loud but off somehow. Cone excursion was MASSIVE on the bs90's, and I am guessing they were tired...and we had these heads all running about 30% on the power cure, more than enough. Cleans were awesome with this cab and the ev's were of course, ev's. The VHT fb slanted was tight and punchy and not nearly as loud as I was thinking it would be. I liked the note definition and loved the cab. My conclusion was the only 2x12 I really dug was the Bogner Oversize...the marshall with gt75's, the recto with v30, thd with longhorns, and carvin legacy v30 (all these are 2x12) did not do what I wanted...they all had some great tones and I never really knew how much the cab size, shape, and mounting (front or rear) influenced the tone. Same goes for the ohms. HUGE difference to my ears between 4 and 16, not so much going from 16 to 8 or 8 to 4. This experiment has been a 2.5 week long quest trying tons of stuff with the same heads. The Bogner OS is almost like lugging a 4x12, so I might stay right there. I totally agree with having V30 rear mounted vs. front mounted in terms of how it performed to my ears. The p50's were front mounted and who knows, they may sound like crap to me mounted any other way...my friend wouldn't let me put them in that Bogner...at least not yet. I am trying a port city waves 2x12 with two Em Super V Lynch 150 watters on Friday and will report back. I am guessing it will be woofy with those ports...the low B just hammers with good gain. That Gflex was great with an old ibby 550 but as soon as we went to B and the Ab for fun on our 7 string arsenal it was 4 wheelin in Georgia in the springtime. So far I would buy the VHT fb or that straight old school Mesa in 4x12...so I agree with the findings of the article but ended up liking both!!!!!! which leads me to another question of how many cabs to use. If I run a full stack, will 8 speakers handle and translate better than just 2 speakers or 4? Sucks to be a tone chaser and it's dam expensive at these current gas prices.
Yan


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## Arsis (Sep 24, 2009)

I am also Interested in Yan12's questions. I am also interested in you guys' worded opinion the difference in sound when switching between ohms.


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## zimbloth (Sep 24, 2009)

Arsis said:


> I am also Interested in Yan12's questions. I am also interested in you guys' worded opinion the difference in sound when switching between ohms.



What questions exactly? I can't even read his post.


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## Arsis (Sep 24, 2009)

yan12 said:


> which leads me to another question of how many cabs to use. If I run a full stack, will 8 speakers handle and translate better than just 2 speakers or 4? Sucks to be a tone chaser and it's dam expensive at these current gas prices.
> Yan



?


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## zimbloth (Sep 24, 2009)

Arsis said:


> ?



Yeah running two 4x12s or 2x12s should certainly perform better than two 1x12s if that's what he's asking. A lot of that depends on the speakers in question though. If you have a 150W tube head and you're running it into a 2x12 with 30w speakers (for 60 total) the headroom, low-end response, and overall sound is not going to hold up as well as if it was going into a cab with more power handling. That said, I've run a 180W Diezel Herbert cranked to death through a 2x12 Fat Bottom cab (100w) and it was tight and awesome because the speakers are legit.

All things being equal though, when you go from using 1 cab to 2, you change the ohm setting on the amp. For example, Fryette cabs are 16ohm. If you have one cab you'd set the head to 16ohm. If you went to a full stack, you'd switch the setting on the amp to 8ohm so that both cabs would receive 16 ohms. So basically, while a full stack will certainly sound 'bigger', the fundamental tone of the amp won't change. 

So if you're hoping to improve the tone/response of your head by going from a half-stack to a full, thats not going to happen. The only improvement in tone will be from just filling more of the room with tone.

However, using the incorrect ohm setting can most definitely suck the life out of an amp.


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## dpm (Sep 24, 2009)

FWIW and most importantly _IMO_ the article is dead on regarding V30s and my own ears. I haven't tried the P50E so I can't comment (I'd like to though). I simply cannot get my sound from any V30 cab I've tried with numerous amps because of the loose lows, fizzy highs and a peakiness that doesn't work for me. But some people love them and that's fine. What I find really frustrating is going to try out a new head and finding that every cab in the store is loaded with V30s. I just can't get an accurate indicator of how the amp will work for me plugged into that damn speaker


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## budda (Sep 24, 2009)

Dan, buy a tester 112!

Or build one


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## Sepultorture (Sep 24, 2009)

throwing my 2 cents in there cus i have a mesa 4x12 loaded with the V30's, and once owned a UL and P50E loaded FB 4x12 cab

i found the FB4x12 to be quite responsive, clear, great bottom, chimey highs, alost bell like, the cleans were sex, it had growl and bite to it for metal, but the overall sound itself was kinda dry, and dry isn't for me, not a bad cab at all, great speakers, but not my sound.

the stiletto 4x12 loaded with v30's, well for my tastes it is quite good for death metal, i like it, but it still leaves a little to be desired, the cleans are good, but not bell like really, for distortion, they were good, but they do have a brittle top end, and they definitely have a fizziness to them, alos the mesa DR's fault too, but not a terrible speaker at all, still crunches like a mother fucker.

now on a seperate speaker note, i would like to try the C90's and even those uber sexy EVM12L's, droooool.

CHUG CHUG CHUG CHUG, BREEE BREE BREEEE, GROWL, BREE lol


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## dpm (Sep 24, 2009)

budda said:


> Dan, buy a tester 112!
> 
> Or build one



I've actually built a 212 but haven't got around to covering it or putting speakers in it yet


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## JMP2203 (Sep 25, 2009)

in my experience depends on the amp, some amps love vintage 30 and others no, especially amps that are created/designed/voiced around v30. of course a VHT will sound better with p50 because its made for those amps.

also remember that LOTS of great recorded albums with great tones used v30, probability the majority 

i like k100


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## budda (Sep 25, 2009)

dpm said:


> I've actually built a 212 but haven't got around to covering it or putting speakers in it yet



it doesn't need to look good, it just needs to work!  - wire up some speakers and giv'r!


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## dpm (Sep 25, 2009)

time is my problem, and I can't decide on speakers. I know I love Classic Leads but I really want to try the P50E and also the Warehouse version of the Classic Lead. Then there's the rather large issue of shipping cost to Australia which is quite a bit for speakers. So it comes back to probably Classic Leads because I might be able to get them at wholesale price, but I'd like to try these other ones, but the shipping cost is steep, and the circle continues...


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## Nick (Sep 25, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> Okay a lot of us VHT/Fryette users have been singing the praises of their P50E speakers for some time now. I get a lot of questions about them and how they compare to more common speakers like Celestion V30s, so I decided to post an article written by the guys at Steven Fryette Design below as well as on my website for you to read. Very informative.
> 
> Enjoy, and I look forward to your comments/feedback. And yes I know tone is subjective, but this article is very accurate IMO
> 
> ...




hmm thanks for the GAS


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## Arsis (Sep 25, 2009)

Nick said:


> hmm thanks for the GAS



Heard that. I have VHT (d120/60) gas out the ass.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 27, 2009)

It's funny you posted this Zim. I just got home from the studio and I was trying out my producer's new VHT Pitbull UL, through a mesa cab with V30s and it left much to be desired. It did sound beastly, but I think the mesa cab is doing a HUGE disservice to the tone. With the intended cab I think it would be a hell of a lot better.


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## zimbloth (Sep 27, 2009)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> It's funny you posted this Zim. I just got home from the studio and I was trying out my producer's new VHT Pitbull UL, through a mesa cab with V30s and it left much to be desired. It did sound beastly, but I think the mesa cab is doing a HUGE disservice to the tone. With the intended cab I think it would be a hell of a lot better.



Yep, exactly dude. Hopefully your producer realizes that sometime and pickups ta FB412 (or 212).


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Sep 27, 2009)

He does..and he's buying the fatbottom to go with it..but he doesn't have it yet..so I toyed around with the amp through the Mesa. Apart from my own bias about NOT liking V30s, the VHT didn't sound too hot at ALL and it was tearing up those mesa speakers. Turning it up gave the V30s WAY more than they're meant to have.


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## zimbloth (Sep 27, 2009)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> He does..and he's buying the fatbottom to go with it..but he doesn't have it yet..so I toyed around with the amp through the Mesa. Apart from my own bias about NOT liking V30s, the VHT didn't sound too hot at ALL and it was tearing up those mesa speakers. Turning it up gave the V30s WAY more than they're meant to have.



Cool, tell him to give me a call 

But yeah, when I had a Mesa v30 cab my UL sounded meh. I had to really go to town with the Pittbull's post-EQ. With the FB412 cab, I disengage the EQ as I've never needed it again.


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## yan12 (Sep 29, 2009)

Back again with an update. First off, the question with multiple cabs vs. one cab has to do with the load, ie. going from 16 ohms to 4 ohms, isn't that amp working harder to do that, and does THAT effect tone? Still have not answered that one for myself yet. As for the cabs and this particular speaker comparison thread, I ended up with a FB 412 slant with p50's. I finally decided with both the recto and the vht side by side and my head, the vht just seemed that much tighter. The mesa was very solid, thick/rich and seared with leads. Very punchy and I really dug it as well, but it could not match the vht in tightness, and I came to the conclusion that I really dig a tight sound with what I am doing. Concerning playing volume influencing tone, ie. practice/home level vs. club/venue level, my head is the Roccaforte Jenelle, and it is insanely loud. Many people complain Rocca's are too damn loud and unusable in most situations, and I won't disagree on that. I just read a battery of tests, performed in a studio in NY that claimed as loud as the vht ultra was completely dimed, the Rocca HG100 easily surpassed it at about 40% of volume. All amps were dimed in the test, and the list is impressive and long. I DID NOT buy the amp knowing this nor do I care one ounce, but the point is as loud as I tested all the cabs, the vht fb 412 retained that tight quality and it sold me big time. Nothing against any other cabs I tried, 80% of which had v30's front or rear mounted, and some were mixed with bs90's, gt75's, and k100's... They were no better (but possibly tighter) to my ear than all v30's in a cab. Some more scooped and some a little less shrill on the top end. I don't know if it is the cab dimensions, the speakers, the combination of the two, or just my ears liking a particular thing that I have finally identified, but everyone in the band agreed last night I have never sounded better. I learned that v30's sound absolutely fantastic in many cabs, but for me the p50's in the fb are the end all with this head...and 2x12's just didn't turn my crank other than portability...even tilting them up. Hell this vht isn't much bigger than the bogner os I almost bought. I think the article has some merit, but I know the v30 is one hell of a good rock/metal speaker.
Yan


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## budda (Sep 29, 2009)

I'd like to hear a mesa through a Fatbottom.

Too bad no one around here owns one.


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## Sepultorture (Sep 29, 2009)

budda said:


> I'd like to hear a mesa through a Fatbottom.
> 
> Too bad no one around here owns one.



i had the mesa DR on top of the FB 4x12 at one point, sounded muffled almost

helped the cleans out alot, but distortion sounded like it was stuck in the amp and was trying to get out


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## budda (Sep 29, 2009)

Hm, weird.

My triple X slant w/ WGS British Leads holds up well so far


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## zimbloth (Sep 30, 2009)

budda said:


> I'd like to hear a mesa through a Fatbottom.
> 
> Too bad no one around here owns one.



I've run several Mesas thru my FB412 over the years, including a Dual and Triple Rectifier. They sounded great actually, definitely better than their V30 cab. However I think Mesas are better off being run through a good rear-loaded cab, such as the Rivera K412MT w/ G12-K100s or something along those lines. Or any high-quality cab with powerful, flattering speakers.


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## budda (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm wondering what the roadster would sound like if I tried swamp thangs in my XXX hehe


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## dpm (Sep 30, 2009)

Swamp Thangs are dark, kind of muffled sounding speakers IME, I switched mine over to Tonkers very quickly. The Tonker really suits me, though it takes quite some time to break in. Initially there's a harshness to the highs but it smooths out nicely eventually. IME the harsh highs can be dialled out with the presence and treble controls until broken in.


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## onefingersweep (Sep 30, 2009)

I'm thinking of getting some new speakers for a frontloaded 4x12 but I don't know if I want to spend &#8364;500 on 4 P50E's, I have a VHT 100 CL so VHT speakers would probably be the best option but I can't afford that, so I'm thinking of getting only 2 of them and then buy 2 other speakers that are a little bit cheaper but I have no clue which speakers would work well together with them. Any ideas?


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## AVH (Sep 30, 2009)

As a couple of others have said, any of these combinations are entirely dependent on the amp/rig going into it. When I was playing 8 string stuff through a VHT 2902 poweramp/POD X3 combo into first a Mesa stiletto 4x12 w/V30's it was good, pretty tight, but something was...a bit off about it. 

Then, I procured a VHT FB412 slant w/P50E's, and the change was dramatically better, extremely tight bottom and sparkly highs - just awesome for any low-tuned extreme metal. Of course, it also sounds great with any VHT head.

After a couple of live X3 failures mid-set, things change again - back to old school the way I grew up with, and playing again: Marshall and analog pedals...so I bought a JVM head. Now pairing the Marshall head (which as we all know are very mids/toppy amps to start with) with the FB cab yields a dramatic difference : now it sounds way too toppy, fairly harsh, and also much too directional - move just a few feet off to the side and you're suddenly lost in the mix, move directly in front of it and it's cutting your head off....put the Marshall back onto a stock 1960A cab with (pre-china) Celestion G12T-75's (which are slightly scooped sounding) and presto, balance is now achieved, and had slightly wider dispersion, which was better for playing live with. Traded the FB for the 1960. 

It does go to show that certain cabs are designed for, and work better with, the heads that they were intended. Use whatever works for _your_ needs are!


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## zimbloth (Sep 30, 2009)

onefingersweep said:


> I'm thinking of getting some new speakers for a frontloaded 4x12 but I don't know if I want to spend 500 on 4 P50E's, I have a VHT 100 CL so VHT speakers would probably be the best option but I can't afford that, so I'm thinking of getting only 2 of them and then buy 2 other speakers that are a little bit cheaper but I have no clue which speakers would work well together with them. Any ideas?



Where are you getting 500 Euros from? If you got the P50s from me, you could get 4 of them for about 245 Euros.


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## WarriorOfMetal (Sep 30, 2009)

yan12 said:


> Back again with an update. First off, the question with multiple cabs vs. one cab has to do with the load, ie. going from 16 ohms to 4 ohms, isn't that amp working harder to do that, and does THAT effect tone? Still have not answered that one for myself yet. As for the cabs and this particular speaker comparison thread, I ended up with a FB 412 slant with p50's. I finally decided with both the recto and the vht side by side and my head, the vht just seemed that much tighter. The mesa was very solid, thick/rich and seared with leads. Very punchy and I really dug it as well, but it could not match the vht in tightness, and I came to the conclusion that I really dig a tight sound with what I am doing. Concerning playing volume influencing tone, ie. practice/home level vs. club/venue level, my head is the Roccaforte Jenelle, and it is insanely loud. Many people complain Rocca's are too damn loud and unusable in most situations, and I won't disagree on that. I just read a battery of tests, performed in a studio in NY that claimed as loud as the vht ultra was completely dimed, the Rocca HG100 easily surpassed it at about 40% of volume. All amps were dimed in the test, and the list is impressive and long. I DID NOT buy the amp knowing this nor do I care one ounce, but the point is as loud as I tested all the cabs, the vht fb 412 retained that tight quality and it sold me big time. Nothing against any other cabs I tried, 80% of which had v30's front or rear mounted, and some were mixed with bs90's, gt75's, and k100's... They were no better (but possibly tighter) to my ear than all v30's in a cab. Some more scooped and some a little less shrill on the top end. I don't know if it is the cab dimensions, the speakers, the combination of the two, or just my ears liking a particular thing that I have finally identified, but everyone in the band agreed last night I have never sounded better. I learned that v30's sound absolutely fantastic in many cabs, but for me the p50's in the fb are the end all with this head...and 2x12's just didn't turn my crank other than portability...even tilting them up. Hell this vht isn't much bigger than the bogner os I almost bought. I think the article has some merit, but I know the v30 is one hell of a good rock/metal speaker.
> Yan



dude. paragraphs.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 30, 2009)

WarriorOfMetal said:


> dude. paragraphs.



Ditto. I can't read that shit, it hurts my brain


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## onefingersweep (Sep 30, 2009)

zimbloth said:


> Where are you getting 500 Euros from? If you got the P50s from me, you could get 4 of them for about 245 Euros.



Since Fryette don't want to sell them to me directly, thats what I'm getting over here 

But now you got PM.


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## CentaurPorn (Sep 30, 2009)

Well...It is time for me to post a new cab day.

I just received my P50e loaded fat bottom 212 today and my thoughts...I am fucking blown away. 

I have owned a few V30 loaded cabs including Framus and Orange. After playing through this I will NEVER go back. 

It is so fucking tight and punchy. It has this amazing growl to it under my Ultra-Lead that the Orange was lacking. The highs are much nicer and the lows feel like a kick to the chest. The low end of my orange was a flubby mess in comparison. Everything sounds so fucking clear through this. No shrill highs like I was getting with the V30's. Back to playing..I will post a thread eventually.

V30's are out!


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## zimbloth (Sep 30, 2009)

CentaurPorn said:


> *I just received my P50e loaded fat bottom 212 today and my thoughts...I am fucking blown away.
> 
> I have owned a few V30 loaded cabs including Framus and Orange. After playing through this I will NEVER go back.
> 
> ...



That's what I'm talking about dude! I told ya  Glad to hear bro, enjoy.


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## CentaurPorn (Sep 30, 2009)

Seriously thought I was happy with V30's. I knew it would be different but Fucking hell. It is like I just plugged into a whole new amp. Wow... It made me realize I don't like V30's at all. It feels like it is kicking me in the chest and tearing my face off at the same time. It is the best way I can describe it. Really makes my sloppy playing show though...which is a good thing. I can't think of a single reason to go to V30's with these available.

Thank you for the advice Nick..Once again!


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## budda (Sep 30, 2009)

it helps when your cab is made for your amp 

I'd like to A/B a standard size recto C90 412 against the peavey to see if mesa knows something I don't lol


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