# Recording in a slower tempo then speeding it up



## Captain Butterscotch (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm running Cubase 7 at the moment, and I was wondering how to record a riff at a slower speed and then speed it up the the actual tempo ala HAARP Machine. The technique certainly achieves a very robotic sound which I really want to play around with a little bit.

inb4 PRACTICE AND DO IT 4 REAL LOL or LOSER CANT PALY HIS OWN RIFFS

I simply want to know how it's done, mkay?


----------



## ThallSoHard (Aug 14, 2013)

I think its a perfectly viable option when you need to get an idea recorded, but can't play it at the right speed just yet, or whatever.

Anyway, never actually done it in Cubase, but in Reaper you can set the audio to preserve pitch at different speeds, drag the varispeed control down to an acceptable speed for you to play the part at, record it, set the speed back to normal and continue on. I'm sure there is something similar in Cubase if you google a little bit.


----------



## Clocks (Aug 14, 2013)

In cubase its a piece of piss, record it at the bpm you want, say 20 or 30 lower than the track. Select the audio and time stretch it. Put in the bpm you recorded it at and the bpm you want in the fields. Job done


----------



## davidgotmilk (Aug 14, 2013)

I'd like to hop in on this, does anyone know how to do it in logic x?


----------



## Given To Fly (Aug 14, 2013)

Don't be a LOSER WHO CAN'T PLAY HIS OWN RIFFS! PRACTICE AND DO IT 4 REAL! LOL

JK I would try and record at exactly half speed simply because its easier for a pitch shifter to work in octaves (half speed lowers the pitch an octave, doubling the speed raises the pitch an octave). Even if you want to maintain the same pitch, its easier for pitch shifters to do that when the math is a 2:1 ratio. 

Also, Steve Vai put a lot of "studio tricks" to creative use on Passion & Warfare. He actually had make up new parts for live performance because what is on the album is impossible to replicate live.


----------



## Alphanumeric (Aug 14, 2013)

Very few bands will actually do the BPM timestretching trick in Cubase, or Protools (called time compression expansion), Sample Editor > Apple Loops in Logic. Of course you could do vari-fi in Logic/PT, but this is pitch sensitive.

The more time you spend on it will yield you more accurate results, as with anything.

One of them would be to record whatever at half speed, in solo mode, with the click, 

so say the full speed version is 200bpm 16th notes, do 8th's at 200bpm, play accurately, zoom right in to your audio wave, make sure the grid is set at 16 notes, so your 8th note will cover 2 grid lines, simply cut off the 2nd half of the 8 note, and the very start of the transient of the next note so its not all clicky (zoom reaaally far in for this to see the transient), do this all the way along the file, and simply drag the half 8th notes you've made and pull them all together and apply fades. If you played the 8th's accurately, the fake 16th's should sound seamless. 

It will work better with certain techniques over others. Such as alt picking, where its very nature is precisseness, whereas legato/sweeping/tapping, they are not as accurate even though there may be small time differences, people's hammer ons may be more accurate than pull offs, which tend to be slower as you have to pick the note with the tip of the finger as you pull off on the right hand, so there is a slightly swung effect, similarly with sweeping, you may go up slower and down quicker and vice versa. You may not think this but its true. Its the same with other things, I notice when recording myself and others downpicking is much stronger than the up picks when trem picking or alt picking is concerned, and the way the ergonomics of the hand work the up picks, or even when strumming, as you come up its slightly swung/slower. 

Make sure you record dry with no effects, as the reverb tails or delay would really mess things up when chopping it all up. Apply them later.

I believe necrophagist did this, its fairly common knowledge epitaph had a lot of stuff recorded like this, hence the extreme lack of pick attack and inhuman fluid like tone.

The other way is to play one note at a time via punch record, and cut/drag/fade it all together. This is what most will do who are rumored to record at slower speeds. 

Either one of these techniques will be sound more convicing than streching audio in various daws, there is a particular sound to it, as Misha describes, it is easy to dedect if you know what you look for, a lot of engineers got spot it easily. Weird artifacts, a kind phasiness, synth like effect.


----------



## Drew (Aug 15, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I'm running Cubase 7 at the moment, and I was wondering how to record a riff at a slower speed and then speed it up the the actual tempo ala HAARP Machine. The technique certainly achieves a very robotic sound which I really want to play around with a little bit.
> 
> inb4 PRACTICE AND DO IT 4 REAL LOL or LOSER CANT PALY HIS OWN RIFFS
> 
> I simply want to know how it's done, mkay?



Oh, this is an "effect" now, and not simply "a way to play something you can't?" 

I suppose it was only a matter of time. I mean, look at T Pain.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Aug 15, 2013)

StateOfSerenity said:


> *Snip*



Thanks!


----------



## Larcher (Aug 16, 2013)

commenting in this thread so I don't forget the cubase method!


----------



## estabon37 (Aug 16, 2013)

It's not just a 'can't play it at the right speed so I'll cheat' technique. Have a listen to Radiohead's "Street Spirit" and then try to play along. I used to think they'd detuned their guitars not quite half a step, but I read years after buying the album that in spite of thinking their take was instrumentally perfect, it was faster than they wanted it to be, so they just slowed the tapes down a little when they mastered it (this was prior to their first digital recording, "OK Computer"). 

I think it was even kind of common in the 90s to alter the speed of an entire song by fiddling with the speed of the tape playback. Musical fashion at the time didn't dictate perfectly tuned guitars, so nobody minded. Listen to "Push The 'Lil Daisies" by Ween. Isn't that song recorded nice and slowly and then just sped up four steps? There's a lot of creative things you can do by altering speeds. Besides, people used to call delay pedals 'cheating to get more notes in', but anyone with half a brain uses delay to add character, not overfill a song with nonsense notes.

I only say all this slightly off-topic stuff because StateOfSerenity (thanks dude!) pretty much nailed the response, and as usual I wanted to throw in an abstract 90s reference. Carry on.


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 16, 2013)

This is very interresting!! 
You guys gave a few exemple of bands doing that kind of stuff. Do you have others??
Do you think Djanks&Djrewves use this kinds of technics to sound like they are? I'm very confused about it, and I love how it sounds.

https://soundcloud.com/kylease/djanky-doodle


----------



## Larcher (Aug 17, 2013)

beware headphones users^

that shit ....ed my ears. That tone is so ear-fatiguing x_x


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 17, 2013)

Larcher said:


> beware headphones users^
> 
> that shit ....ed my ears. That tone is so ear-fatiguing x_x



yeah! but it's a production/mix problem. maybe a gear or set up problem... but I don't care and I can get over it IF the music is good!
so maybe they lack production skills or gear, but they certainly don't lack creativity!!! despite the "not so good" production, I just can't listen anything else since a month or two. that's how great I think this music is. to the point that it motivate me to play guitar again and learn how to produce my own stuff.... so basicaly, those guys brings me to ss.org, and I was lurking here to learn. I can figure out the polyrythm/polymetric/syncoped rythme thing (or whatever it is!!) but i'm very confused about those guitars. I previously thought that it was "sample chopped" and triggered via something like an MPD or padkontrol, à la hip hop/dubstep style, or maybe a noise gate with very hard settings, but I was not sure..... and when I saw the title of this thread, I thought that maybe someone with trained ears will be able to accurately tell me what's going on with those Godlike/inhuman guitars. 

and I'm not trying to promote them. It's just passion. 

edit: another exemple but no Djanks&Djrewves, this is Anup Sastry: https://soundcloud.com/asdrummer2008/song-4

@StateOfSerenity: What is "punch record" please?


----------



## Djentliman (Aug 17, 2013)

I have not really listened to Djanks&Djrewves, but I do listen to a lot of Anup. Amazingly talented guy there. 

I think he samples all his guitars and arranges them like in a midi piano roll. I have always wanted to try something of that nature. Just haven't had the time!


----------



## ShawnFjellstad (Aug 17, 2013)

Drew said:


> Oh, this is an "effect" now, and not simply "a way to play something you can't?"
> 
> I suppose it was only a matter of time. I mean, look at T Pain.



I came in here just to see what kind response you had laid out, and you delivered well. 

*runs away back to mg.org*


----------



## MontaraMike (Aug 17, 2013)

ACK @ this thread


----------



## ShawnFjellstad (Aug 17, 2013)

MontaraMike said:


> ACK @ this thread



This. So much this. Massive thread fail.


----------



## bnosam (Aug 17, 2013)

Given To Fly said:


> Also, Steve Vai put a lot of "studio tricks" to creative use on Passion & Warfare. He actually had make up new parts for live performance because what is on the album is impossible to replicate live.



I'm interested in hearing more about what he did on that album for "tricks". Any more details?


----------



## Larcher (Aug 17, 2013)

ShawnFjellstad said:


> This. So much this. Massive thread fail.



I've never used the slowdown/speed up technique, but I'd like to try it just for the hell of it

What's the problem here? Why does it bother you what others do?


----------



## MontaraMike (Aug 17, 2013)

Larcher said:


> Why does it bother you what others do?



Why does something bothering other people bother you?


----------



## ShawnFjellstad (Aug 18, 2013)

MontaraMike said:


> Why does something bothering other people bother you?



Don't bother him about being bothered about something bothering other people.
Just as I shouldn't be bothering you about bothering him about being bothered about something bothering other people.

Bother.


----------



## Larcher (Aug 18, 2013)

wat


----------



## MontaraMike (Aug 18, 2013)

ShawnFjellstad said:


> Don't bother him about being bothered about something bothering other people.
> Just as I shouldn't be bothering you about bothering him about being bothered about something bothering other people.
> 
> Bother.



Exactly!


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 18, 2013)

what's the problem? I don't care if you can't play live what you did in the record. I don't go to live show anymore, anyway.... I just want my head to bounce whatever you use in the record!
it's 2013 right? electro music and sampling didn't happened yesterday... where is the fail in this thread? I don't see the point of those comments except sayin "I don't like it" and being rude.... you are good at playing guitar? more power to you. but your music is not better just because you can play it live or track it in one tack...


----------



## DarkWolfXV (Aug 18, 2013)

If you are recording with a DI record it note by note, cut notes to length, set them up in order, and if you did your job right, no one will ....ing notice.


----------



## Drew (Aug 19, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> what's the problem? I don't care if you can't play live what you did in the record. I don't go to live show anymore, anyway.... I just want my head to bounce whatever you use in the record!
> it's 2013 right? electro music and sampling didn't happened yesterday... where is the fail in this thread? I don't see the point of those comments except sayin "I don't like it" and being rude.... you are good at playing guitar? more power to you. but your music is not better just because you can play it live or track it in one tack...



Oh, right, I'm sorry, I forgot we were having this conversation over on dubstep.org. My B.


----------



## GunpointMetal (Aug 19, 2013)

man, I hope none of you guys talking shit listen to deathcore or new deathmetal or djent, cause all of that shit is edited to death. I barely see a difference between this and going in and micro-fading the tails of all of your chugs, recording dry, moving everything around, then re-amping (even if you're moving whole sections/parts of riffs) or chopping every section of a song into 1-2 beat punches.....
"If you can't play all 150 measures of your track without a punch, you're not a good guitar player!" Says no-one ever....
Who cares if someone has to punch in every note as long they're not trying to pass it off as "I did this all in one take with my big swinging guitar dick!" 
Would you be talking shit if the guys punched in a piano part by hand with his mouse in the piano roll? The only time its cheating is if you try and convince people you didn't use any digital wizardry to accomplish your goal.


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 19, 2013)

@Drew:
Because sevenstring.org means I have to talk about metal and nothing else??

Those bands I talked about are metal/djent, and they are using guitars BTW.... Commun topic over there right?

And what is wrong if I want to use a seven strings in a dubstep track?

Close minded people FTW.... This thread have a lot of views but not so many answers. Makes me think that people might be interrested but too shy to ask because of people trying to dictate "the right way to make music"....


----------



## Winspear (Aug 19, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> what's the problem? I don't care if you can't play live what you did in the record. I don't go to live show anymore, anyway.... I just want my head to bounce whatever you use in the record!
> it's 2013 right? electro music and sampling didn't happened yesterday... where is the fail in this thread? I don't see the point of those comments except sayin "I don't like it" and being rude.... you are good at playing guitar? more power to you. but your music is not better just because you can play it live or track it in one tack...



+1
Music is music.
Personally I will always play my parts properly except for effect but I couldn't give a damn if I didn't or somebody else didn't.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Aug 19, 2013)

There are...2-3 threads debating on whether or not this technique is tr00 or not. Please go necrobump them or make your own.


----------



## Drew (Aug 19, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> @Drew:
> Because sevenstring.org means I have to talk about metal and nothing else??
> 
> Those bands I talked about are metal/djent, and they are using guitars BTW.... Commun topic over there right?
> ...



I don't even know if dubstep.org is a real site, dude.  

All I'm saying is this is a site started by a bunch of guys who owned seven string guitars and were really into playing guitar, so to see the recording section of this forum with threads about sampling guitar notes and midi sequencing them rather playing the parts yourself and playing a part slower and speeding it up to get an "effect" seems kind of strange to me. I mean, we're all here first and foremost because we're guitarists, right? All these "techniques" seem to be a work around for not spending some more time woodshedding and trying to become a better player, which is an attitude I have a hard time understanding. Don't we all play guitar here because it's just FUN? Hell, let's take that a step back. Don't we all _play guitar_? 

And it's not like in this day and age technique doesn't matter - look how quickly Sumerian stopped talking about the HAARP Machine when their live shows turned out to be a butchery? 

Idunno... this whole thread just seems strange to me. 

And to whoever asked - no, I really don't listen to much djent or anything-core. Periphery isn't bad, especially their newest (which sounds more like a prog album in places), but very few of their imitators have impressed me, so normally I just tune the stuff out.


----------



## tedtan (Aug 19, 2013)

Drew said:


> All I'm saying is this is a site started by a bunch of guys who owned seven string guitars and were really into playing guitar, so to see the recording section of this forum with threads about sampling guitar notes and midi sequencing them rather playing the parts yourself and playing a part slower and speeding it up to get an "effect" seems kind of strange to me. I mean, we're all here first and foremost because we're guitarists, right? All these "techniques" seem to be a work around for not spending some more time woodshedding and trying to become a better player, which is an attitude I have a hard time understanding. Don't we all play guitar here because it's just FUN? Hell, let's take that a step back. Don't we all _play guitar_?


 
I don't mind the "how a piece was recorded" aspect, I care about how it sounds. And I'll grant you that many of these types of recordings don't sound right (see almost anything Joey Sturgis has produced as an example; I imagine sampling the instrument will yield the same results). 

But what about this - is it strange that Vai used an Eventide harmonizer instead of playing all the notes himself? Would the piece be better if he did play all the notes?


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 19, 2013)

Drew said:


> I don't even know if dubstep.org is a real site, dude.
> 
> All I'm saying is this is a site started by a bunch of guys who owned seven string guitars and were really into playing guitar, so to see the recording section of this forum with threads about sampling guitar notes and midi sequencing them rather playing the parts yourself and playing a part slower and speeding it up to get an "effect" seems kind of strange to me. I mean, we're all here first and foremost because we're guitarists, right? All these "techniques" seem to be a work around for not spending some more time woodshedding and trying to become a better player, which is an attitude I have a hard time understanding. Don't we all play guitar here because it's just FUN? Hell, let's take that a step back. Don't we all _play guitar_?
> 
> ...



yeah I know the "dubstep.org" thing was ironic. and I understood what you meant by saying that. this was the point of my answer...

I don't know how ss.org started but nowadays, there is full part forums dedicated to 6 strings, bass, drums, jazz/classical/fingerstyle.... you got my point? I can read "recording section: Discussion on EVERYTHING recording based"....

If it's strange to you, just ignore it! nobody tried to convince you. maybe we don't like the same things, so what? I'm not going to troll you if you talk about something you like that I don't.... this is childish.


----------



## Drew (Aug 19, 2013)

I, meanwhile, am passingly familiar with the early days of this place, let's say.  And I think the one common thread is that virtually every subforum here is related to playing guitar. To hear someone talk about someone who samples his guitar tone and sequences it with midi as some sort of "genius" is sort of mind-blowing to me - that's the sort of thing where if you talk to a couple audio engineers over beers, they would say that about a modern band or artist as a joke, you know? Like, "he should just give up and program his guitars in midi, because god knows he can't play." 

Who knows, maybe it's a generational thing. To me, the difference between being a musician and relying on midi to "play" your guitar or speeding up a riff you recorded slower because you can't play it cleanly at tempo is sort of like the difference between dating a really hot check and photoshopping some girl into a bunch of pictures with you and saying, "bros... check out my smoking hot girlfriend!" It's like the reverse of the "this thread is worthless without pics!" thing - just because you can point to a picture of it doesn't make it real, you know?


----------



## Konfyouzd (Aug 19, 2013)

Given To Fly said:


> Also, Steve Vai put a lot of "studio tricks" to creative use on Passion & Warfare. He actually had make up new parts for live performance because what is on the album is impossible to replicate live.



Was not aware of this...


----------



## Konfyouzd (Aug 19, 2013)

Drew said:


> just because you can point to a picture of it doesn't make it real, you know?



... as I stare at your avatar. 

But yea... I agree with Drew. I can't hate on a song that sounds good regardless of how it was recorded, but I'm not going to think of the person that did the guitar part as a great guitarist if they weren't actually playing it.


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 19, 2013)

.


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 19, 2013)

You can be the first member of this place, I just don't care. This thread is guitar related. like it or not. What you think about those tricks is YOUR take on it. You don't like it, We get it! get over it!

your exemple with the photoshoped Chick make me think about the difference between playing a real triple rectifier or using a profile on a kemper, or axe fx... difference between a real drummer or clicking in a piano roll+superior drummer... you can hear a drummer but it's not real  don't give a Pork this is just Musique!!!

nobody tried to make you think that this is true guitar playing instead of edited or sampled parts. I'm not saying "Djanks&Djrewves guitarist is a guitar hero" because it's clearly edited! they don't try to make you think it's real guitar playing.. this is not cheating if the tricks is obvious, and assumed.

I'm pretty sure, if I'm starting a guitar playing related thread in the ss.org drum&percussion forum, mods (real or wanabe mods...) gonna tell me that I'm in the wrong place...


----------



## Daybreak (Aug 19, 2013)

As I see it, it's sad to see technical abilities standing in the way of creative minds, just gonna take Anup Sastry as an example (the guy sampling the guitar). He can't play guitar, at all, yet finds ways the make sounds of it which is, to many, mind-blowing. Now he doesn't try to trick people into thinking he ACTUALLY played the parts. Where's the harm? Is that in any way dishonest?

Another example. I'm sitting at home, trying to write some music, I come up with a riff which is JUST out of my technical abilities. I record it half-speed, speed it up just to get the idea down. A few days later I am able to play the riff at full speed and record it like that in the final version. Again, where's the harm?

Another situation, you and your band have booked time in the studio, but have limited time. You're all very picky about the tightness, so instead of sitting 30 minutes with each take you record everything half-speed and get it on the first take, thus saving you a lot of time. A month later, when the album is released you have your first show and have rehearsed a lot and can play the songs as tight as it is on the recording. Again, where's the harm?

My point is, there's probably a thousand situations where I think this speeding-up thing could be beneficial, and in no way dishonest, so a guy should be able to ask how to do it without something bashing him for it. 

With that said, I'm a guitar player and I practice my riffs to death to be able to play them 110% both when recording and playing live, and I feel very strongly against bands like The Haarp Machine who isn't even able to play their own songs live. THAT is dishonst, in my opinion, trying to trick something into thinking you did something that you didn't.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Aug 19, 2013)

^Why couldn't the other guy say it like that?


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 19, 2013)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^Why couldn't the other guy say it like that?



because my english sucks.....

edit: "it's sad to see technical abilities standing in the way of creative minds". I keep this one. thank you very much.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Aug 19, 2013)

FFS

Half Speed Debate

I appreciate all opinions on this. But for the holy love of GOD make another thread for the useless, dickwaving e-bickering and leave this one for helpful things on how to edit sound files instead of stuff that has already been debated to death.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Aug 19, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> because my english sucks.....





Fair enough.


----------



## Drew (Aug 19, 2013)

Daybreak said:


> With that said, I'm a guitar player and I practice my riffs to death to be able to play them 110% both when recording and playing live, and I feel very strongly against bands like The Haarp Machine who isn't even able to play their own songs live. THAT is dishonst, in my opinion, trying to trick something into thinking you did something that you didn't.



Quoting this, but in general I agree with your post. I'm not exactly a religious zealot on this subject, and while I don't really have the patience for this to do it myself I'm not going to judge anyone for taking a performance and doing a little bit of editing to clean it up - replacing a weak chord hit with a cleaner one from a different part of the take, trimming silence to make it tighter, whatever. It's just when you move from taking something you physically played and polishing it up a bit to taking something you can't play at tempo and recording it slower and then speeding it up and reamping it, it seems like there's a distinction there that you're crossing. 

Personally, I'm kind of surprised the djent community is as cool with this sort of manipulation as they are.


----------



## Ben.Last (Aug 19, 2013)

I've said it more in depth elsewhere, but I'll sum it up here.

There's a difference between using studio magic and being honest about it and trying to pass off studio trickery as something that it's not. 

If you record at half speed, and then say you played that shit, and then you can't play it live, .... you.


----------



## Given To Fly (Aug 21, 2013)

Konfyouzd said:


> Was not aware of this...



Consider the knowledge dropped! 

But it should be noted, the parts Vai manipulated in the studio sound like special effects, not shred guitar.


----------



## Given To Fly (Aug 21, 2013)

bnosam said:


> I'm interested in hearing more about what he did on that album for "tricks". Any more details?



Unfortunately I don't have many details. I think it was Blue Powder that needed some creative adjustments in order to play live though.


----------



## Clocks (Aug 21, 2013)

So 90% of bands in this genre use programmed drums in the studio programmed by midi to hit every single note perfectly on time...

You do anything with guitar and you are a musical nazi!

lol


----------



## Ben.Last (Aug 21, 2013)

Clocks said:


> So 90% of bands in this genre use programmed drums in the studio programmed by midi to hit every single note perfectly on time...
> 
> You do anything with guitar and you are a musical nazi!
> 
> lol



Are the band's that make up that 90% trying to pass off those programmed drums as an actual drummer playing? if so, they're just as ....ing retarded.


----------



## MDV (Aug 21, 2013)

Putting parts together from punched in notes and accelerating parts played slowly alters the sound of the guitar. Like distortion or reverb. Its a perfectly legitimate thing to do. 

Its been done for years. You can accelerate tape. Albert lee played a solo that seemed to be very fast, but he doubled the speed of his recording. Had people trying to play it as it was on the record for years. He thought it was funny as ..... 

It happens often in the digital realm. 

Its a tool at your disposal. You can use it if you want. Its just a way of getting your beautiful musical mind-flowers into peoples ears and showing what a wonderful auditory cortex you have without needing to go through the hassle of playing the guitar. Thats just a tool, too.

Its also a great way of bringing down the corrupt corporate system ruling the world from behind the scenes.


----------



## Larcher (Aug 21, 2013)

Ben.Last said:


> Are the band's that make up that 90% trying to pass off those programmed drums as an actual drummer playing? if so, they're just as ....ing retarded.



For small time bands, programmed drums is the better thing to do because it's cheaper and everything is tracked out in a couple of clicks.

Alot of bands you listen to most likely used programmed drums even when they do have a drummer, it's not a bad thing.


----------



## Ben.Last (Aug 21, 2013)

Larcher said:


> For small time bands, programmed drums is the better thing to do because it's cheaper and everything is tracked out in a couple of clicks.
> 
> Alot of bands you listen to most likely used programmed drums even when they do have a drummer, it's not a bad thing.



I think you missed the main point I was trying to make. I understand why programmed drums get used even by bands that have live drummers. Buying enough mics and preamps to record drums is expensive, not to mention having a viable room. Note that I said the problem is when bands try to lie about it, or when they program stuff that they can't pull off live.


----------



## Larcher (Aug 21, 2013)

Ben.Last said:


> I think you missed the main point I was trying to make. I understand why programmed drums get used even by bands that have live drummers. Buying enough mics and preamps to record drums is expensive, not to mention having a viable room. Note that I said the problem is when bands try to lie about it, or when they program stuff that they can't pull off live.



Ah, I missed that part, my b


----------



## Drew (Aug 21, 2013)

You know, I think I figured out how to say what bothers me about this thread. 

Nearly 10 years ago when we were first starting this site, the typical question was more like "how do I sound more like John Petrucci," and the answer was generally "a Mesa, Dimarzios in basswood, and a LOT of time with a metronome." Now it's "How do I sound like The HAARP Machine," and it's a discussion on how to record slower and speed back up. 

I just feel like metal as a genre has lost something in the last couple years, you know? This may be an "effect" to people today, but a year or two ago ago, it was because the dude from the HAARP Machine couldn't play his parts so he needed to cheat. I got into metal because I appreciated the technicality and the virtuosity of the music, and I feel like we're starting to lose that. 

.... it. I'm kind of an old fogey around here by current standards, I guess.

EDIT - and when the F did we introduce a curse filter?!?!


----------



## Alphanumeric (Aug 21, 2013)

Drew said:


> 1.Now it's "How do I sound like The HAARP Machine,"
> 
> 2. This may be an "effect" to people today, but a year or two ago ago, it was because the dude from the HAARP Machine couldn't play his parts so he needed to cheat.
> 
> 3.I got into metal because I appreciated the technicality and the virtuosity of the music



1. How many people have asked to sound like The Haarp Machine, seen as you are juxtaposing them against all the people who want to play like Petrucci ....

1 to 20000?

2. It really grinds my gears when you hear about people who try and pass of their playing as 100% real, and then its later revealed they punch in every note, a lot of big tech death bands do with or modern tech bands, its the same with Trivium talking about how the drums were all in 1 take with no samples for Shogun, I'm thinking, stop trying to pull the wool over our eyes, every single commercial metal album ever has had sample replacement and multiple takes since the 80's. Well, maybe the engineers were just trying to appease them by saying it, and then sampling and heavily editing later when they were out of the studio hahaha

I believe if you try and pull a veil over it all and say everything was recorded honestly and true, but you speed it all up then you are a complete .... you deserve to be and you would probably end up being exposed as being terrible compared to record. This has happened to countless mainstream (or in this case underground) bands that are usually a passing trend anyway, whilst the true tech players live on, prosper and have long careers as respected musicians. Whats the problem?

3. Some people may like certain types of metal for the composition, atmosphere, etc, and in most cases studio trickery is part and parcel, not all metal has to be guys wasting their lives plays 16th note triplets to a click for 8 hours a day not actually doing anything musical.


----------



## BouhZik (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew said:


> You know, I think I figured out how to say what bothers me about this thread.
> Nearly 10 years ago when we were first starting this site, the typical question was more like "how do I sound more like John Petrucci," and the answer was generally "a Mesa, Dimarzios in basswood, and a LOT of time with a metronome." Now it's "How do I sound like The HAARP Machine," and it's a discussion on how to record slower and speed back up.



I never heard anybody saying he wants to sound like Haarp Machine.



Drew said:


> I just feel like metal as a genre has lost something in the last couple years, you know? This may be an "effect" to people today, but a year or two ago ago, it was because the dude from the HAARP Machine couldn't play his parts so he needed to cheat. I got into metal because I appreciated the technicality and the virtuosity of the music, and I feel like we're starting to lose that.



IMHO, Petrucci is boring, Satriani and the like are all boring as .... surfing with the alien is a big piece of crap where he shows he's a great lead guitar player, but this is bad music to me. Metallica is pretty tight on records, but floppy as hell live.. Kirk can't play his own solo live, but he is selling signature guitars..



Drew said:


> ... it. I'm kind of an old fogey around here by current standards, I guess.



I don't know about the old fogey  ... but this is not current standards. The beattles did it in the 60's. and I'm pretty sure Beethoven didn't play all the instruments he wrote for. musicians played it for him live (monster fail!! He couldn't play his own riffs live!!), but he got all the fame.  what a shame?! haha!

this is not about performance or "who's got the biggest one". this is about making music. IMHO you missed something if you got into metal for technicality and virtuosity. I got into metal because of the br00tality and athmosphere. don't need to be a shredder.

I'm out of here. My english sucks too much. I wish that you understood my point of view.


----------



## Given To Fly (Aug 22, 2013)

I just did some recording at half speed, or at least ProTools was recording at half speed, I was playing at normal speed. I have to say it's actually pretty fun hearing yourself flawlessly play way faster than normally possible 1 - 2 octaves above the range of the guitar.


----------



## geoffshreds (Aug 22, 2013)

ask Pat O'Brien how to speed things up...
Cannibal Corpse - Frantic Disembowelment (Studio) - YouTube
/  on thread


----------



## Drew (Aug 22, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> I never heard anybody saying he wants to sound like Haarp Machine.



Reread the first post of this thread, dude.  

Metallica today is a world away from Metallica back before Bob Rock got his hands on them. You know, back when they spent all their time practicing instead of going to therapy. If you don't care for shred, that's fine - I do, we can certainly agree to disagree on that. It's not for everyone and the nice thing about music is there's so much of it. 

And I don't think you can really equate Beethoven to a whole bunch of kids writing Periphery derivatives in their bedrooms, dude - if nothing else, because Beethoven was writing music explicitly for other people to perform, which I don't really think is what we have going on here.  If that was the case, the OP would be writing this in standard notation, not by recording it and speeding it up.


----------



## Ben.Last (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew said:


> And I don't think you can really equate Beethoven to a whole bunch of kids writing Periphery derivatives in their bedrooms, dude - if nothing else, because Beethoven was writing music explicitly for other people to perform, which I don't really think is what we have going on here.  If that was the case, the OP would be writing this in standard notation, not by recording it and speeding it up.



Well, to be fair, Periphery basically is Bulb sitting in a room writing music for other people to perform.


----------



## Andromalia (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew said:


> You know, I think I figured out how to say what bothers me about this thread.
> 
> Nearly 10 years ago when we were first starting this site, the typical question was more like "how do I sound more like John Petrucci," and the answer was generally "a Mesa, Dimarzios in basswood, and a LOT of time with a metronome." Now it's "How do I sound like The HAARP Machine," and it's a discussion on how to record slower and speed back up.
> 
> ...



I guess it's more age than an actual lessening of the genre or anything. I mean, I was feeling that when nu-metal was actually new. "Dafuq is that dropped tuning shit, they can't play barre chords ?"
The current metal scene at least here in Europe is perhaps more alive than it _ever _was.


----------



## Captain Butterscotch (Aug 22, 2013)

BouhZik said:


> I never heard anybody saying he wants to sound like Haarp Machine.



I did in the OP.

I just asked a simple question on how something is done. It was an honest question, that wasn't meant to be blown out of proportion. 

I even messed with it a little bit. It was fun, it was pretty neat, but it was like using cheat codes in Skyrim; it immediately became dull and took the fun out of it. 

I look at it like my first encounter with AutoTune. I really wanted to know how it was done. So, I looked it up and tried it with my friends computer using Antares, and BAM I had acquired a little knowledge and furthered my knowledge of recording "effects" or "techniques" or whatever "words" we want to put in "quotation" marks. I look at this the same way in that I was curious on how to do it because I wanted to see what I sounded like playing Rusty Cooley esque lines at 12931029310293124 BPM. I did, I learned YAY I might've leveled up, but my terrible mixes state otherwise  

This is a textbook case of SS.org taking something very simple, and arguably trivial, and making it what we like to call "a big deal" when _really_ it's not.


----------



## Drew (Aug 22, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I even messed with it a little bit. It was fun, it was pretty neat, but it was like using cheat codes in Skyrim; it immediately became dull and took the fun out of it.



I won't lie, that's reassuring to hear.  

I remember years ago back in college (and I'm old enough that this was a LONG time ago) I tried speeding up a solo of mine, not because I was trying to fool anyone (this was before you could change tempo without changing pitch, and I doubled the tempo so almost the whole thing was above the range of a guitar) but because I was curious what it sounded like. It was instant Yngwie.  I chuckled about it for a bit, sent a mp3 to a buddy of mine (telling him it was sped up), and then moved on. 

I probably STILL can't play as fast as that clip.  I actually think I might be slower now than I was in college (more time to practice), but I'm certainly a hell of a lot more controlled, and a bit more musical.


----------



## Narrillnezzurh (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew said:


> I got into metal because I appreciated the technicality and the virtuosity of the music, and I feel like we're starting to lose that.



I got into it because I appreciated the creativity I saw in the music, and I'm loving where metal's at right now. Tempo alteration is a tool in my eyes, nothing more.


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Aug 22, 2013)

I only vaguely read the thread so we might all be off the subject, but I honestly can't believe that there are people who get bothered by speeding something up. Am I the only one who thinks that the end product is all that matters? That so long as you're not taking other people's property (stolen music ideas without credit or permission ie: Midi rips/sampling) if the song sounds good, then who cares how it was made?

The people playing the music, or how much talent something takes to play, is the last thing I think about when listening to music. Let's not forget that you get a certain effect if you speed things up or down, even while maintaining pitch. Celldweller does quite a bit of time stretching to get effects, and I love Klayton as a producer. Perhaps it's because my passion is writing and releasing music (a lot of which is done on my own) more than actually being able to play it, but I have no shame in saying that I'm not the best (or even near great) guitarist. If what's in my head requires a little pitch shifting or speed boosting to get out, then I'm gonna do it. If you can honestly say you'd bypass great music because they used "shortcut" methods, then you're not doing it for the music, and that is totally questionable behavior. On the other hand, these people shouldn't perform live if they can't physically do it. Nothing's worse than sloppy shitty live playing. It feels sort of like being robbed.

That said, somebody early on said record at half speed and then speed it up from there, and I gave it a shot. Perhaps it's because I recorded with different amp settings than I usually do, but it sounded a lot better than if I recorded it at 10-30BPM slower and then sped it up. (I recorded a 200bpm riff at 100bpm) That's really interesting to me.

Moral of the story is that people shouldn't rag on one another for choosing methods that give them good results. Some of us aren't nearly as great of guitarists/bassists/whatever as others, why should we have to wait to get the technique down good and proper if we can get the exact results we need right now? That's not to say quit working on your technique, but I don't think people should be shamed and cast aside for it, if the music is good.


----------



## Ben.Last (Aug 22, 2013)

Señor Voorhees;3696982 said:


> I only vaguely read the thread so we might all be off the subject, but I honestly can't believe that there are people who get bothered by speeding something up. Am I the only one who thinks that the end product is all that matters? That so long as you're not taking other people's property (stolen music ideas without credit or permission ie: Midi rips/sampling) if the song sounds good, then who cares how it was made?
> 
> The people playing the music, or how much talent something takes to play, is the last thing I think about when listening to music. Let's not forget that you get a certain effect if you speed things up or down, even while maintaining pitch. Celldweller does quite a bit of time stretching to get effects, and I love Klayton as a producer. Perhaps it's because my passion is writing and releasing music (a lot of which is done on my own) more than actually being able to play it, but I have no shame in saying that I'm not the best (or even near great) guitarist. If what's in my head requires a little pitch shifting or speed boosting to get out, then I'm gonna do it. If you can honestly say you'd bypass great music because they used "shortcut" methods, then you're not doing it for the music, and that is totally questionable behavior. On the other hand, these people shouldn't perform live if they can't physically do it. Nothing's worse than sloppy shitty live playing. It feels sort of like being robbed.
> 
> ...



Again, if it's an instance of someone being open about using the technique, and they're not trying to pull it off live and failing, then I think you're right.

But in the case of HM, the guy lied about doing it in the first place, and his lie became apparent when he couldn't play his own shit live. That IS the equivalent of stealing money from people that come to see the guy live, and it's just bullshitting the fans, which is not something any artist should do. I don't think someone like Klayton would ever lie about the studio magic he uses like that, so that's entirely different.


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Aug 22, 2013)

Ben.Last said:


> Again, if it's an instance of someone being open about using the technique, and they're not trying to pull it off live and failing, then I think you're right.
> 
> But in the case of HM, the guy lied about doing it in the first place, and his lie became apparent when he couldn't play his own shit live. That IS the equivalent of stealing money from people that come to see the guy live, and it's just bullshitting the fans, which is not something any artist should do. I don't think someone like Klayton would ever lie about the studio magic he uses like that, so that's entirely different.




This is what I get for not reading the entire thread. I only read a couple posts about how some people thought it negated from the overall aspect of music. I'm actually completely unfamiliar with HM, but it sounds like shitty behavior. If you can't play the stuff, then don't play it live. Release albums with your music, but don't try to bullshit people. I don't necessarily think you should go out of your way to tell people it is or isn't sped up, but you should never try to pass it off as something you can do without fault, and you certainly shouldn't make half assed attempts at performing it live. Like I said, if an artist goes up on stage and mangles their own music beyond belief because they're just not skilled enough to play it, I consider it pretty damned close to robbery. People spend good money on tickets and shouldn't be feeding you if you haven't done the work to earn it. It's like showing up to work piss drunk and getting paid anyway. With all of this I'll agree.

For the people who rag on others for even thinking of speeding up something, my previous opinion still stands. Liking the musician should come second to appreciating the music he writes.


----------



## Alphanumeric (Aug 22, 2013)

Drew said:


> Reread the first post of this thread, dude.
> .



So this first ever I want to sound like The Haarp Machine thread, and he didn't even explicitly state it as such. 

 Now, lets do a quick search and see how man want to be like Petrucci,







W, w, woowowowzzzerss! It even _predicts_ it for you! Gollygolgollygosh.

It is ridiculous to try and compare Beethoven to bedroom djenters, ain't it?

Just like trying to say '"Now it's How do I sound like The HAARP Machine"'. 
Because of course in the ten years that have passed absolutely everyone into technical guitar that would have been into Petrucci and his eithic, are into Haarp and want to speed it all up?

Is that right?

Is that what you are trying to say?

20000 to 20000?


----------



## KFW (Aug 22, 2013)

Captain Butterscotch said:


> I did in the OP.
> 
> I just asked a simple question on how something is done. It was an honest question, that wasn't meant to be blown out of proportion.
> 
> ...


 
+1

Loooool at this thread.


----------

