# How do you approach songwriting/composition?



## Opeth666 (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm trying to progress as a player and a song writer, typically I just sit down and start writing riffs and go from there, but things are feeling alittle stale and generic with my song writing lately so I want to approach it a different way.

How do you guys go about approaching your songwriting? do you sit down and write out a chord progression and try out different arrangements and chord shapes?

any helpful hints and comments would be great. 

if it helps, I mainly play progressive metal with long acoustic technical passages entwined with heavier riffs a few examples per say : Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, Daylight Dies.

let me know if you guys can help. Thanks!


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## jrg828 (Mar 21, 2011)

THIS is your solution haha 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7h-MdM7JCGs


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## jymellis (Mar 21, 2011)

i smoke a lil somethinsomethin, actually alot lol.


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 21, 2011)

I record all of the ideas that I think are worth something over a long period of time and then painstakingly glue them all together.

It takes a very long time


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## xmetalhead69 (Mar 21, 2011)

I've been finding lately that its all about getting consistency and flow, focusing mostly on mood, feel, and melody.


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## Blind Theory (Mar 21, 2011)

I write what people would call "death core" but I call death metal. Anyway, I usually just write a bunch of riffs over the week and then me and my guitarist will get together, choose some riffs we like and build off of them. We will sit down, talk about what sound we want and what style we are going for then write to achieve it. Then when band practice starts we will show them and go from there with tweaking and editing. I guess this only "helps" if you are in a band but you could always do something similar. I.E. write riffs, ask for a friends opinion, go from there.


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## ChainsawVsGod (Mar 21, 2011)

If I think of an idea, I'l put it into Tuxguitar and if its a good idea the rest will just come easy to me. If its bad then the idea will just wither. I find it impossible to just sit down and write a song.


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## SirMyghin (Mar 21, 2011)

My personally approach is not to force writing ideas. I just wait for something to happen one day, or an idea to pop in my head then I build on it (whatever it might be). I have more demanding things to my time than to try and write music otherwise.


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## Vidge (Mar 30, 2011)

Ill be messing around on the guitar, and If I end up playing something I like, I input it into Tuxguitar (used to use powertabs back in the day...). And then Ill listen to it over and over to see if any ideas pop in my head. If not, I come back to it a day later or so. Sometimes ill think of something that should go before it, sometimes Ill think of something that goes after it. Depending on what I add, ill determine if I need to go further before it, perhaps a better intro, or ill think that I need to progress forward. I have literally created 7 minute songs based around that one single riff that was written & noted down weeks/months ago. Sometimes that original riff isnt even a main focal point in the song, a mere transition riff. See what a single riff can do?


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## Goatfork (Mar 30, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I record all of the ideas that I think are worth something over a long period of time and then painstakingly glue them all together.
> 
> It takes a very long time



^This, lol. 

I take all of the riffs and write harmonies, then judge where the song should go based on the groove of whatever's happening. If I have a good idea of what to do for the drums, I'll program them and that's what goes into the demo. If I can't, I bring the song to my drummer and he figures it out.

The same thing works when I get stuck in writing the guitar. He'll find out what should come next for the drums, which gives me a good idea of how the guitar should go. Base and vocals come last for the writing process.


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## fps (Apr 1, 2011)

I usually have a couple of ideas that work well together before I start writing a song. I always make sure I'm not just bashing away on the bottom string- I think it's important to play MUSIC, not just a selection of riffs. I like to find parts that fit together in tempo, that complement each other nicely. If I have a vocal idea, I will look at what chords work underneath it, and sometimes end up with two totally different sounds/ riffs that work with the same vocal. Perfect, just got myself a verse and pre-chorus, or a chorus and change-up midsection. The intro is very important as well, as it sets up the atmosphere of the song. Are you looking to thump the listener in the chest, make them bang their heads in mid-tempo, do you want to create a song of contrasts or smash right through? How long is the song going to be? It's about asking the right questions, and being prepared to work hard to find the right notes to create the effect that you wish to have. I let little licks and riffs I like reverberate around my head, sometimes for weeks, and think what would work well with them, or behind them. This is a little ramble, I might add some more later.


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## Explorer (Apr 1, 2011)

Am I the only one who looks at songs/compositions in terms of intro/verse/chorus/bridge/etc.? 

I remember in school having to write outlines whenever one was doing something which should develop well. Term papers, stories, books, movies, all are better if one knows how to fit the parts together, instead of just putting parts together and hoping that they fit. 

And, of course, if one has a clear vision, and can look at where one is going, one can figure out what would come earlier in the journey.

Ah, well, maybe it's a genre thing.


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## SirMyghin (Apr 1, 2011)

I got a new approach today, record all but the outro leads, get frustrated and delete everything. Super effective I swear.

No explorer, I break it all into sections, my current is intro, intro variation 1, chord variation, bridge 1, bridge pt 2 (leads change) outro (which is the same progression as the intro but faster). 

Need to change one run, too cluttered, don't like it. ...


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## Explorer (Apr 1, 2011)

SirMyghin, I wouldn't have expected any less of you, friend....


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## SirMyghin (Apr 1, 2011)

Explorer said:


> SirMyghin, I wouldn't have expected any less of you, friend....



The deleting everything or keeping everything meticulously classified in sections . I guess that part doesn't much matter though.


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## Vidge (Apr 2, 2011)

Explorer said:


> Am I the only one who looks at songs/compositions in terms of intro/verse/chorus/bridge/etc.?
> 
> I remember in school having to write outlines whenever one was doing something which should develop well. Term papers, stories, books, movies, all are better if one knows how to fit the parts together, instead of just putting parts together and hoping that they fit.
> 
> ...



My song structures are similar to Opeth/Protest The Hero, where there are not necessarily your typical verse and choruses and rarely repeating riffs. Of course, going this route could lead to drawn out songs where the first minute doesnt really make sense musically to the last minute.

But ultimately if this style can be pulled off, I think its a better way to go. Theres much more room for creativity and uniqueness. I guess you could say its storyline structure. Something like this:
]







Obviously you can get this effect using verses/choruses, but I think it makes the song very limited and quite predictable. If you can pull off this sort of story structure, where you essentially have "acts" instead of verse/choruses, I think its much more intriguing.


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## Explorer (Apr 2, 2011)

I tossed the verse/chorus/bridge thing out there, but to have such a structure doesn't mean that you can't have variations within the restatements of each section. 

To use an extreme example of a piece which uses the same four-note riff throughout, and which builds and brings in variations, I've always admired Beethoven's 5th symphony. 

I don't know... I guess I remember hearing all kinds of predictable structures like the metal ballad, which seem to all be cut from the same cloth. All the worthwhile texts on music composition I've read talkb about different structures and orders, and it wasn't my intention to make it sound like I meant that one always uses the same structure/order in every composition.


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## SirMyghin (Apr 2, 2011)

Explorer said:


> I tossed the verse/chorus/bridge thing out there, but to have such a structure doesn't mean that you can't have variations within the restatements of each section.
> 
> To use an extreme example of a piece which uses the same four-note riff throughout, and which builds and brings in variations, I've always admired Beethoven's 5th symphony.
> 
> I don't know... I guess I remember hearing all kinds of predictable structures like the metal ballad, which seem to all be cut from the same cloth. All the worthwhile texts on music composition I've read talkb about different structures and orders, and it wasn't my intention to make it sound like I meant that one always uses the same structure/order in every composition.



AABA is by far the most successful music structure, probably followed by the 12 bar blues. Pretty much every Beatles tune is AABA, James Brown, before he invented funk (I don't say that lightly, it is about the only genre one man sat down and made) played AABA AND 12 bar blues, this was a lot of how he had a mixed audience. He was quoted to saying something akin to 'Black people like the blues, and white people like something different in the middle'. His A was usually a blues. 

I am a great disregarder of common structure, and common chord progression (although I have even forgotten how a lot of those work in my folly). I wouldn't call it anything radical, but compared to modern music I guess it is. More of a post rock appraoch I suppose. 

Gutting the end of that song today, it wasn't flowing/meshing properly... back to work.


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## walleye (Apr 3, 2011)

Opeth666 said:


> if it helps, I mainly play progressive metal with long acoustic technical passages entwined with heavier riffs a few examples per say : Dream Theater, Symphony X, Opeth, Daylight Dies.



that sounds pretty cool man.

its too hard to give advise to someone i dont know, everyone plays, writes, thinks and feels differently

i spose the only advise i could give is stop and think about what the piece of music is meant to convey. whether its as specific as an actual topic or if its just a feeling. e.g. if you're in a grindcore band then the emotion ius probably going to be irrational rage, if so, what in particular is the song raging at, and how best can we depict the rage in the music. lol

i say this because a lot of technical musicians loose sight of what the piece/song is about and alot of the time it isnt about anything in particular. I strongly believe that knowing what your song is about is vital.


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## zukobro (Apr 3, 2011)

When you're into bands like the ones you mentioned (Dream Theater especially) you kinda have to decide now which you want to do:
A: do you want to write the songs to dream theater level? 9 minute epic songs of arpeggios and time signature changes/key changes? or
B: do you enjoy those bands sound, but not really focused on having the TECHNICAL skill at hand? This makes a world of difference in your songwriting.

If your goal is to become a master at composition with complex time signatures and theories, your best bet would be to study those songs and structures, try and take a music theory class at a community college (even if you already know theory, more ALWAYS HELPS!!!!) And remember, three of the guys from Dream Theater are Berklee SOM Grads (from before the school started to slide downhill a bit) So they put a LOT of emphasis on that.

However, if your goal is just to achieve the sound, it's about messing around. Pick up your guitar, don't plug it in, and play it while you watch t.v. for a few minutes at a time. Go off the preset song list you usually have and just start messing around like many of the other people here have wisely suggested. You already know how to write songs, cause you know how to play other peoples, your mind just has to latch on to the sound that you like. Once it does, BUILD ON THAT! experiment. There's always room for improvement. 

try starting off with four chords in your progression. (lets say you just stick with the palm muted power chords of E, G, D, and B.) now add some arpeggios between that bitch. 
2-2-2-2-2-2-2-------5--5-
0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-2-3---3-

But without the advice that Walleye gave you, every last bit of that is useless. Just remember the keep your learning balanced and you'll do fine.


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## walleye (Apr 3, 2011)

thanks for the reference^ 

on the note of dream theater, most people think of their songs as just wanky complexities, but *every single one of their songs is about something*, they dont just play in 7/8 for fun, they probably do it because that particular groove they come up with means something in the context of their song - i dont really know what goes throuigh their heads when they come up with their stuff, im just speculating...


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## fps (Apr 7, 2011)

walleye said:


> thanks for the reference^
> 
> on the note of dream theater, most people think of their songs as just wanky complexities, but *every single one of their songs is about something*, they dont just play in 7/8 for fun, they probably do it because that particular groove they come up with means something in the context of their song - i dont really know what goes throuigh their heads when they come up with their stuff, im just speculating...



i don't know, they have their writing days, practice days and recording days mapped out well in advance, i think they pretty much wing it writing wise then learn it all, certainly the last few albums have felt a lot less inspiring in general.

i will, however, be buying the new one. nothing like a bit of soap opera and a lineup change to get the risk-taking flowing, this disc is make or break.


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## Dead Undead (Apr 7, 2011)

Whenever I see someone's playing or I hear of/see a concept on guitar that is new to me, I'll adapt it and use that as a basis for a song.
Basically I'll see something new and get inspired.


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## CrossingTheEventHorizon (Apr 7, 2011)

Learn as much Allan Holdsworth as possible  Also learning melodies/solos that weren't written for guitar are very inspiring, especially sax and other horns.


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## Dead Undead (Apr 7, 2011)

CrossingTheEventHorizon said:


> Learn as much Allan Holdsworth as possible  Also learning melodies/solos that weren't written for guitar are very inspiring, especially sax and other horns.



One of my former guitar teachers showed me some really cool variations on a major scale that involved a bunch of outside notes, and that was taken from a sax solo. Highly recommend this.


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## CrossingTheEventHorizon (Apr 8, 2011)

Dead Undead said:


> One of my former guitar teachers showed me some really cool variations on a major scale that involved a bunch of outside notes, and that was taken from a sax solo. Highly recommend this.



was it hungarian major?


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## Dead Undead (Apr 8, 2011)

CrossingTheEventHorizon said:


> was it hungarian major?



I don't know. I just know that the notes on the low and high E strings didn't match each other.


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## dorfmeister (Apr 11, 2011)

Vidge said:


> My song structures are similar to Opeth/Protest The Hero, where there are not necessarily your typical verse and choruses and rarely repeating riffs. Of course, going this route could lead to drawn out songs where the first minute doesnt really make sense musically to the last minute.
> 
> But ultimately if this style can be pulled off, I think its a better way to go. Theres much more room for creativity and uniqueness. I guess you could say its storyline structure. Something like this:
> ]
> ...



I find this idea compelling.


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## Opeth666 (Apr 13, 2011)

thanks guys for all the positive feed back, I have been really busy as late but this weekend I finally have some me time so i am going to give your suggestions a try. but by all means keep em coming! thanks all!

Denny


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## Solodini (May 8, 2011)

Another thing which I find to help is to move the notes of an idea into different octaves. Not to transpose the whole thing, just move certain notes about. This can help to add a certain depth which can often be missed when just writing closely voiced riffs. You can build tension by drawing the voices in more and then release to a more open sound.

When it comes to writing I'll usually have an idea and build something similar to it as another section. I tend not to write many ideas down for the same reason as others have mentioned: if it's good then I'll remember most of it, if it's sub-standard then I won't. I agree with ISk84Food about not just stringing riffs together. A problem I see with a lot of songs is that they gear change between sections rather than flowing. It's good to look at what you're doing and see how you can make them relate. Emphasise certain aspects of similarity but emphasise other differences so it feels more new.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (May 8, 2011)

dorfmeister said:


> I find this idea compelling.



You should, that's the visual representation of all drama everywhere. 

I've avoided this topic for a while, because I wasn't really sure what I'd say and I wanted to see what other people had to contribute. I think the most important step in composition is to realize your message before you write anything down. And don't be lazy about it, either: know what you're trying to say and be prepared to give an answer, even if it's not conclusive. The details of the next part are going to vary from musician to musician, but what it boils down to is figuring out how to effectively communicate your message in terms of music. This is where the theory comes in - I know how to make something sound final, resolved, and glorious, but I also know how to leave music open-ended. Generally that's all you need, and I'll show you how that works. (Forgive me for my choice of examples, but I'm a huge 70's prog nerd.)

Rush - The Fountain of Lamneth


One of Rush's more obscure works. It wasn't well-received at the time of its release, and I don't think they've ever done it live. Pushing aside the popularity and accessibility factors, it's a well-constructed song. The story is a first-person narrative of a life from its beginning to its twilight years. The first section is an account of the narrator's youthful idealism, symbolized in the pursuit of a mythical fountain that holds the answer to some ultimate question. A story you've heard before, I'm sure. However, life happens, and through various tribulations and redemption, the guy grows up and figures he should settle down. He eventually resigns to a life of simplicity and routine, growing old as a boring dude. (If you have the chance, find an unabridged copy of W. Somerset Maugham's _Of Human Bondage_. That novel does a fantastic job of doing what this song does up to this point.)

At some point, the narrator uncorks the cask and gets hammered.  He gets nostalgic and thinks of all of the things he didn't do. The dude's been living a lie, he hasn't realized his potential, and time is running out. He's having a midlife crisis. Finally, near the end of his life, he finds closure. He reaches the Fountain of Lamneth, remembering the aspirations of his adolescence. Something has changed, though: he is no longer that person. The fountain only brings him disappointment, for its reward is simply not commensurate with the hardships he suffered to reach it. Contemplating, he reaches his conclusion:


```
Now, at last I fall before
The Fountain of Lamneth.
I thought I would be singing
But I'm tired, out of breath.
Many journeys end here
But, the secret's told the same:
Life is just a candle, and a dream
Must give it flame.
```

Satisfied with the Sisyphean meaning he has found in his existence, he can now die in peace. The song ends the same way it begins - small and vulnerable. As one journey comes to a close, another embarks.

There is a circuitousness that is built into the story, and indeed into the lyrics and music. As you reach the end of the cycle, the measures at the beginning gain a new meaning. The questions posed in the exposition are answered in the denouement. In terms of form, this is very square. However, it is the content that makes the song, not the layout. What I'm trying to say here is that this song's message deserves a particular interpretation, and because the story matches the music, it is effective.

I could contrast the resolution in The Fountain of Lamneth with the dissolution of answer in another Rush song, 2112, but I prefer something a little more abrasive.

Van Der Graaf Generator - The Sleepwalkers


This song is a little more concise in terms of story. Using the metaphor of somnambulism and life as a dream, the lyrics point out that even with all of our technology and prowess, we can't know everything. We are limited by our senses and mortality. If we could overcome those limitations, perhaps. At this point, I'd like to point out this text (at 4:09):


```
I'd search the hidden corners of all this world,
make reason of the sensory whorl
if I only had time,
but soon the dream is ended.
```

Yeah, that's pretty much what I just said. Musically, though, check out what happens right after that lyric. What the hell is that?! Some weird tripped out arpeggios that don't create any sense of settlement whatsoever. This motif is associated with death, a return to the infinite chasm of nothingness. The next time you hear this figure is at the end of the song, associated again with the same sort of lyric.


```
Oh, I'd search out every knowledge
that I could find,
unravel all the mysteries of mind,
if I only had time,
if I only had time,
but soon my time is ended.
```

It doesn't do that "Hey, we're back where we started and everything's fine!" thing; it's that "Shit, I didn't know there was a midterm today!" thing where you're caught off guard and have no hopes of possessing the answers to your questions. In other words, it's left unresolved, and there is no way you can resolve it. Once again, this works because the idea fits the music.

It's a given that music as a dramatic form will build in intensity during its course (provided that its writers don't completely suck), but how you let it off is where the finesse comes in and requires a great scope of the work you intend to do. That's just artistry, though. Formulaic songwriting exists, and it can usually get away with sticking to easy forms because the message is very rarely heavier than a sack of dog turds.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (May 12, 2011)

See also this thread, I amongst others typed some stuff in there:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/beginners-faq/154397-song-writing.html


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## right_to_rage (May 13, 2011)

I would say that whenever I get stuck I just start firing off every approach to song writing and coming up with ideas that I can. Saturate the idea realm and try brainstorming like mad! I could have a good idea already, and if i get really stuck I'll just play through intervals, change scales, write down the song format on paper, describe the section in words, whatever. Basically get the creative faculties going by changing things and exploring until I come up with the next best idea.


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## the-emerson (May 17, 2011)

I write a clean "theme" which usually becomes the basis for the song, from there i will write a collection of riffs which work with the initial theme. These are then arranged, so that the most dynamic riffs become verses which are set around the original theme. The other riffs are then put around either side and relayered that way I know everything works together, recently I have been referring back to Lateralus and Sikth I love the way their songs flow


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