# Congress: Pizza is a Vegetable



## Randy (Nov 17, 2011)

> Ketchup still isnt a vegetable but some members of Congress are working to make sure pizza still is.
> 
> With budget-cutting topping lawmakers list of priorities, Congress is set to halt some of the Department of Agricultures new nutritional guidelines for school lunches, requirements the USDA estimates will increase the already $11 billion school lunch program by almost $7 billion over five years.
> 
> ...



http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...s-how-budget-cuts-can-make-pizza-a-vegetable/

EDIT: Video related --


----------



## Pooluke41 (Nov 17, 2011)

My Friend was telling me about this,

What next Devries is an Instrument?


----------



## Mexi (Nov 17, 2011)

hahaha only in America


----------



## AySay (Nov 17, 2011)

You guys are seriously so fucked. I feel bad for Americans. It won't be long before lobbyists are "convincing" your corrupt congress on the health benefits of meth...


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 17, 2011)

Since white flour builds up and congests the digestive track over time, inhibiting the absorption of many nutrients, pizza is sort of neutral if you're going to count it's merits of health. As a rule, though, you shouldn't even consider this point to begin with.


----------



## Demiurge (Nov 17, 2011)

There really is no help for someone who can be convinced that pizza is a healthy food to start with. Hey, I love pizza, but I'm not going to rationalize it with crap like, "teh tomato sauce is a serving of vegetables!!!11!1!"


----------



## The Reverend (Nov 17, 2011)

This is ridiculous. I understand the superficial reasoning of wanting to cut back on spending, but it's very clear that this wasn't motivated by an urge to pull back on the Fed's spending habits.


----------



## PostOrganic (Nov 18, 2011)

Mmmmmmm vegetables.


----------



## Atomshipped (Nov 18, 2011)

At least they recognize that fact that kids definitely don't eat fruit/vegetables that come with meals at schools.


----------



## rectifryer (Nov 18, 2011)

Pizza for vegetables? DOORS!


----------



## vampiregenocide (Nov 18, 2011)

I swear America has become a parody of itself. I used to laugh when people make jokes about stereotypical America, but now I don't because the real thing is just so hilarious but equally frightening that there's no competition. This is why The Onion catches me off guard; half the shit it jokes about _could actually happen_ in America.

The rest of the world laughs nervously.


----------



## Waelstrum (Nov 18, 2011)

I've been telling people for a while now that since chocolate is made from a cocoa been it's a legume, 'justifying' eating chocolate instead of breakfast.

Also, cocaine is made from a plant, so it's a vegetable, and counts towards your 5 a day.


----------



## synrgy (Nov 18, 2011)

I'm gonna need a bigger face.

And palm.


----------



## BucketheadRules (Nov 18, 2011)

FOR FUCK'S SAKE, TOMATOES ARE A FRUIT, NOT A VEGETABLE.

Can't believe this is the thing that bothers me most about this article, it beggars belief how stupid some of the fuckwits in charge of schools that country are. If any of you have seen Jamie Oliver's Food Revolution on TV, where he's trying to improve food in LA schools against a tide of resistance from penny-pinching, idiotic politicians, that is exactly what I'm reminded of here.


----------



## Mr. Big Noodles (Nov 18, 2011)

BucketheadRules said:


> FOR FUCK'S SAKE, TOMATOES ARE A FRUIT, NOT A VEGETABLE.



My sister, who holds a Master's degree, thought I was talking bullshit when I said that squash, tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, corn (Maize to the rest of the world. Is there a such thing as popmaize?), and pumpkins are fruit. Politicians have so severely distorted our perception of food. Whatever, when the Chinese invade and line up all the fat people in front of a ditch, I'll be living in the woods and practicing crop rotation until all the assholes in the world go extinct.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 18, 2011)

And drugs are bad... 

Mmkay...?


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 18, 2011)

Atomshipped said:


> At least they recognize that fact that kids definitely don't eat fruit/vegetables that come with meals at schools.


 
What?


----------



## vampiregenocide (Nov 18, 2011)

BucketheadRules said:


> FOR FUCK'S SAKE, TOMATOES ARE A FRUIT, NOT A VEGETABLE.



You know what, in all the madness of this thing I completely forgot that.  The principle alone of considering pizza a vegetable seemed mad to me, forgot that the main ingredient isn't even a vegetable. :


----------



## chevymeister (Nov 18, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> My sister, who holds a Master's degree, thought I was talking bullshit when I said that squash, tomatoes, cucumbers, peppers, corn (Maize to the rest of the world. Is there a such thing as popmaize?), and pumpkins are fruit. Politicians have so severely distorted our perception of food. Whatever, when the Chinese invade and line up all the fat people in front of a ditch, I'll be living in the woods and practicing crop rotation until all the assholes in the world go extinct.


 Peppers, corn and cucumber I thought were vegetables. Odd lol.


----------



## AK DRAGON (Nov 18, 2011)

The only vegetables are those dumb asses in Congress. 
There is NO brain activity there! 

Can we get them classified as vegetables?


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 18, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> You know what, in all the madness of this thing I completely forgot that.  The principle alone of considering pizza a vegetable seemed mad to me, forgot that the main ingredient isn't even a vegetable. :


 
To be honest, at this point despite the validity of that argument it's really of no consequence. The notion that it's good practice to make school lunches less healthy based on unfounded claims is bad enough w/o diving deeper into the jackassery.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 18, 2011)

AK DRAGON said:


> The only vegetables are those dumb asses in Congress.
> There is NO brain activity there!
> 
> Can we get them classified as vegetables?


 
That would be giving them too much credit. They're dense and refuse to budge... That sounds like sediment to me.


----------



## synrgy (Nov 18, 2011)

Obviously they're on the take.


----------



## Demiurge (Nov 18, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> I swear America has become a parody of itself. I used to laugh when people make jokes about stereotypical America, but now I don't because the real thing is just so hilarious but equally frightening that there's no competition. This is why The Onion catches me off guard; half the shit it jokes about _could actually happen_ in America.



Oh now now now, we're a big country. There are over 300 million people living here, so even if 149 million people are mind-numbingly stupid and believe amazingly idiotic things, _at least it's not the majority_! Relax!


----------



## AK DRAGON (Nov 18, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> That would be giving them too much credit. They're dense and refuse to budge... That sounds like sediment to me.



You got a point there. Plus they would have a ZERO nutritional value


----------



## Blind Theory (Nov 18, 2011)

Our government is so unbelievably incompetent 99.99% of the time. I honestly can't remember a decision made or law passed that made sense to me or that was actually agreed upon by the majority of citizens that went through. I wish we lived in a time where our citizens had the balls to form a mass revolt on the government and start fresh. We need that. Bad.

/rant


----------



## Explorer (Nov 19, 2011)

There's a reason why, in the wake of Congress changing the name of French fries to "freedom fries," the French started calling American cheese "idiot cheese." *laugh*



Adam Of Angels said:


> Since *white flour builds up and congests the digestive track over time, inhibiting the absorption of many nutrients*, pizza is sort of neutral if you're going to count it's merits of health. As a rule, though, you shouldn't even consider this point to begin with.



What? 

Okay, that's just plain incorrect. Source, please!

During some recent medical tests, I was talking to my gut guy about crazy claims about vitamin pills just accumulating in the gut, or other substances which supposedly stick around. "It's an amazing self-cleaning system. You didn't see all kinds of crazy stuff coming out, but all we did was have you drink that stuff, and you can see on the tape that you were clean as a whistle inside." 

Really, claims that stuff just starts sticking around in a normal pathology is contrary to the facts.


----------



## Origin (Nov 19, 2011)

OH, WOW


----------



## candiceB (Nov 19, 2011)

Nutrition is the provision, to cells and organisms, of the materials necessary to support life. Many common health problems can be prevented or alleviated with a healthy diet. It is needed not just by adults but also by children and it would be maintain even in school. Modifications to school lunch programs might be blocked. If Congressional votes take effect, these changes could possibly be dead on arrival. School lunches are presently governed by the United States Department of Agriculture. However, regulations allow for French fries and pizza to be counted as veggies. Congress tries to block school lunch reform. Though the regulations would only technically affect free and reduced price lunches, which are government-subsidized, they effectively impact all school lunches. The bill is a compromise between the House and Senate, and is generally expected to pass. The school lunch provisions have been attached to the bill as a rider that will pass or fail with the bill. This has elicited strong responses from potato growers, who argue that the vegetable is nutritious and inexpensive, when prepared properly.


----------



## Sephael (Nov 19, 2011)

chevymeister said:


> Peppers, corn and cucumber I thought were vegetables. Odd lol.


fruits carry the seeds of the plant, vegetables do not.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 19, 2011)

Explorer said:


> What?
> 
> Okay, that's just plain incorrect. Source, please!
> 
> ...



Wrong. Of course, everybody is different, but there is plenty of research and medical cases that illustrate just how people's digestive tracks become sluggish, to put it simply. I'm not saying that the body isn't incredible and efficiently self-cleansing, but If you believe that nothing you eat can have a negative effect on your digestion over time, you're severely mislead.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 19, 2011)

Ugly Truths about White Flour

As mentioned here, refined flour, as well as refined sugar puts an unnecessary strain on the adrenal glands, amongst other things. The adrenals are instrumental in digestion, since they help regulate metabolism hormonally (What are the Adrenal Glands?).

When your body lacks the ability to break down food as well as it should, waste builds up along the intestinal wall. It takes a while, but in time, this causes such a build up that the actual muscular function of digestion is weakened, and substances such as refined flour build up, especially along the bends and turns of your intestines. Your body is very good at eliminating waste and toxins, but if you overload it with same (like most of us in the western world do with out horrible diets), you're more than likely to run into problems.

I'm not spending a lot of time digging up articles, since anybody interested is more than capable of finding this information themselves. I'm not saying that if you occasionally eat white flour, you're fucked - but over time, it's detrimental to your health, and specifically to your digestion..


----------



## -42- (Nov 19, 2011)

What I find sad is that they tried to rationalize the whole thing nutritionally as opposed to simply stating that they don't want to spend the money.


----------



## Explorer (Nov 19, 2011)

You made an amazing claim.



Adam Of Angels said:


> Since *white flour builds up and congests the digestive track over time*, inhibiting the absorption of many nutrients, pizza is sort of neutral if you're going to count it's merits of health. As a rule, though, you shouldn't even consider this point to begin with.



I asked for a source.



Adam Of Angels said:


> I'm not spending a lot of time digging up articles, since anybody interested is more than capable of finding this information themselves.



I'm a huge fan of research, and so I normally do look at sites with good research when I am curious about a medical claim. I am definitely interested, but the only claims of intestinal build-up I found were from sites which seem to promote detoxing, as opposed to anything on, say, the NIH website, anything related to the JAMA, and so on. 

I don't talk much about the details of where I work, but I've definitely talked, in the context of the problem of such "detoxification" enthusiasts who damage their health through strange approaches to a non existent problem, to our on-staff nutritionists. It was from that place that I talked to my gut guy, with the background of all the research I'd been wading through as prep for something at work.

And, it's from that place that I still ask, please give a source for the claim that "white flour builds up and congests the digestive track over time." Even the Women's Health Magazine article (not a journal, I know, but the source you posted) doesn't make that claim.

----

That article also drew an incorrect conclusion, incidentally. It asserted that eating refined carbs alters metabolism, and used as evidence the fact that someone eating simple carbs puts on more weight than someone eating the same amount of complex carbs.

The science on this, which is even in most exercise self-help books at this point, is that simple carbs can be absorbed immediately, while complex carbs take more action to break down into simple carbs, which can then be absorbed. As the complex carbs run through the system, they leave before they can be broken down completely. Further, some complex carbs can't be broken down by the body, including fiber, so it leaves the body untouched. That's not a metabolism being altered one way or another. 

Anyway, although it will be surprising to those I know who keep up with such things, I'm interested in any reputable source for the claim that white flour builds up in the digestive tract over time. Cheers!


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

You actually completely ignored my point in favor of your own. I'm not disagreeing with you when you say that undigested substances are eliminated before they are completely broken down. What I described in my previous post IS my explanation as to how white flour can build up in the intestinal tract, although I didn't go into strict detail. There are more than enough professional publications stating that many people are walking around with an undesirable amount of waste in their gut. I've spent a lot of time reading articles, journals and books on this particular subject. You're claiming that you've done the same. 

I'm drawing on a large number of sources I've read over the years when I say that substances like white flour can build up in your intestinal tract. I won't be bothered to dig up a source that focuses on that particular subject - like I said: your digestion can become sluggish over time. Your digestive muscles, along with the mucosal lining of your digestive tract, become burdened and to some degree ineffective at both absorbing and eliminating certain substances. Waste then builds up along the digestive wall. White flour is difficult to break down to begin with, and if you've ever mixed it with water, you'll see what it's capable of. I'm not proposing something outrageous or even controversial. 

What's silly is that you're implying that all "detoxification" programs are bogus and nonsensical. That's almost like dismissing everybody who goes around picking up garbage in public places as crackpot, tree-hugging hippies. Its just like most people that eat a vegan diet, who don't understand how to do it properly and end up hurting their selves. 

The majority of the literature on detox diets may or may not be shy of the mark, but that doesn't mean detoxing is always a worthless endeavor. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. There are many habits, whether dietary or otherwise, that lead to glandular/hormonal imbalances. These can cause digestive malfunctions amongst other issues. Over time, the elimination of toxins becomes more difficult, and so these toxins get stored in a variety of places in the body. These are gradual problems, and not always easily detectable or even remotely severe. Candida over-growth, for one, is almost always a direct result of having a poor diet for some length of time. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you're suggesting that poor diet doesn't lead to digestive issues, and therefore a plethora of other health concerns?


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh, and one of the best sources for this stuff is Cherie Calbom. She's known as "The Juice Lady." I'm willing to guess that most people who latch onto her work misuse her advice, but, she knows what she's talking about. One book of hers, "Juicing, Fasting, and Detoxing For Life", goes into pretty good detail as to how proper detoxing works.


----------



## troyguitar (Nov 20, 2011)

Can we detox Congress (or the whole government for that matter)? There's a lot of shit that's built up in there over the past 200 years.


----------



## Atomshipped (Nov 20, 2011)

brutalwizard said:


> actually the majority of my lunch in highschool was only fruits and vegetables, cause i hoarded the the money my parents gave me for lunch to purchase distortion pedals for my MIND
> 
> the fuits and veggie bars are away from the prying eyes of the cafetiera staff so i would eat like 2 bananna's and some carrots or apples, and if there was a jesus that day, strawberrys. also i guzzled there milk like it was going out of style
> 
> ...


The distortion pedal thing is awesome 
Personally I enjoy fruit and milk as well but I know almost no one who actually chooses to get it (it comes for free with meals) let alone eats it.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> What's silly is that you're implying that all "detoxification" programs are bogus and nonsensical. That's almost like dismissing everybody who goes around picking up garbage in public places as crackpot, tree-hugging hippies. Its just like most people that eat a vegan diet, who don't understand how to do it properly and end up hurting their selves.
> 
> The majority of the literature on detox diets may or may not be shy of the mark, but that doesn't mean detoxing is always a worthless endeavor. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. There are many habits, whether dietary or otherwise, that lead to glandular/hormonal imbalances. These can cause digestive malfunctions amongst other issues. Over time, the elimination of toxins becomes more difficult, and so these toxins get stored in a variety of places in the body. These are gradual problems, and not always easily detectable or even remotely severe. Candida over-growth, for one, is almost always a direct result of having a poor diet for some length of time. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you're suggesting that poor diet doesn't lead to digestive issues, and therefore a plethora of other health concerns?



Ok, let's put it like this: there is *no* unbiased evidence that detoxing actually works, or that there is even a toxin to begin with. Why you shouldn't read sources on detoxing from detoxers is just sound research practice, they have a product to sell after all.

We know that picking up trash works, we see the trash go away. However, have you seen a spectrum of a toxin that is said to build up in a body? Has someone ever isolated one?

Claims without evidence is sadly not how science works, if that would not have been the case, I would have made a fortune selling genuine (with a given value for genuine) footprints of bigfoot!


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Read the book I mentioned. It makes sense. You have to understand that toxic build up is a gradual thing. If you believe that your diet and your environment have no effect on your immune system, digestion, or body in general, I've got no place in this discussion with you.


----------



## daemon barbeque (Nov 20, 2011)

Congress


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Read the book I mentioned. It makes sense. You have to understand that toxic build up is a gradual thing. If you believe that your diet and your environment have no effect on your immune system, digestion, or body in general, I've got no place in this discussion with you.



Sure, diet is a large part of well being. But "detoxing" is unproven, and currently unprovable. See, those that are taking people's money can't produce any sort of evidence for their claims, and it certainly does not work that way.

So, I have not read the book, but I have read other sources on detoxing, and it all sounds like BS to me. Not to mention that they have never actually produced any toxin that is said to be responsible. That is, currently, they claim that we are poisoned by something that no-one has been able to prove exists... Do you see the big hole in that reasoning?

It's kinda like that exorcists claim we are attacked by demons, they can cure it, but they can't prove they've actually done something. But they'll gladly take your money anyway.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

It's not really so much about specific toxins that are inherently harmful to the human body. For example, certain metals that the body actually needs can become toxic in certain quantities, and such a build up can occur as a result of a glandular imbalance, or digestive issues, including candida overgrowth (which can lead to a TON of different problems, depending on the severity of the issue). Again, a large majority of the stuff you and I ha e read has been blown out of proportion, but that doesn't mean that these aren't real issues. Just as there are tons of complaining patients leaving doctors' offices undiagnosed, there are tons of nearly undetectable issues causing a plethora of problems in people's bodies because most medical practitioners don't look for them.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> It's not really so much about specific toxins that are inherently harmful to the human body. For example, certain metals that the body actually needs can become toxic in certain quantities, and such a build up can occur as a result of a glandular imbalance, or digestive issues, including candida overgrowth (which can lead to a TON of different problems, depending on the severity of the issue). Again, a large majority of the stuff you and I ha e read has been blown out of proportion, but that doesn't mean that these aren't real issues. Just as there are tons of complaining patients leaving doctors' offices undiagnosed, there are tons of nearly undetectable issues causing a plethora of problems in people's bodies because most medical practitioners don't look for them.



And those metals are?

Remember these guys are experts on making their products sound scientifical.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm not directly quoting anybody in particular by bringing up that example. Are you suggesting that you don't think the body can either become overloaded with, or deficient in certain minerals, vitamins, and metals? Like, do I have to explain that?


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I'm not directly quoting anybody in particular by bringing up that example. Are you suggesting that you don't think the body can either become overloaded with, or deficient in certain minerals, vitamins, and metals? Like, do I have to explain that?



Sure, a lot of medical conditions can create a deficancy or a surplus of some metals/minerals. There is however no plausable reason to how a perfectly healthy human being can be poisoned by metals or other chemical compounds by eating a normal diet. Our body is a marvelous piece of machinery, and a part of that is waste-management, i.e. if you would get anything out of the ordinary/over a certain level, you pee it out. That is why vitamin supplements are usually redundant as well.

So, you bring something up as an example, but when I enquire more, you can't specify?


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Sure, a lot of medical conditions can create a deficancy or a surplus of some metals/minerals. There is however no plausable reason to how a perfectly healthy human being can be poisoned by metals or other chemical compounds by eating a normal diet. Our body is a marvelous piece of machinery, and a part of that is waste-management, i.e. if you would get anything out of the ordinary/over a certain level, you pee it out. That is why vitamin supplements are usually redundant as well.
> 
> So, you bring something up as an example, but when I enquire more, you can't specify?




I mean, my example was something of ordinary understanding. Like... It was as specific as it needed to be. If you don't know anything about vitamin/minal deficiency, or overload, then say so, and I'll continue. 

A for the first part of the above quoted text: what is a normal diet? Or a normal environment to be exposed to? I agree: if somebody were eating a normal diet, and leading a healthy lifestyle, they shouldn't really run into problems. A perfectly healthy human being is a perfectly healthy human being. Why would you assume that I'm talking about perfectly healthy humans? That is simply not the case for a lot of people in the western world, sadly. Our diets aren't normal, and as a a plethora of research suggests, even FDA approved foods are potentially harmful or nutritionally deficient.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I mean, my example was something of ordinary understanding. Like... It was as specific as it needed to be. If you don't know anything about vitamin/minal deficiency, or overload, then say so, and I'll continue.
> 
> A for the first part of the above quoted text: what is a normal diet? Or a normal environment to be exposed to? I agree: if somebody were eating a normal diet, and leading a healthy lifestyle, they shouldn't really run into problems. A perfectly healthy human being is a perfectly healthy human being. Why would you assume that I'm talking about perfectly healthy humans? That is simply not the case for a lot of people in the western world, sadly. Our diets aren't normal, and as a a plethora of research suggests, even FDA approved foods are potentially harmful or nutritionally deficient.



A normal diet in this case, out of a toxic perspective, is something that has had clean water to grow in, been fed resonably clean straw etc. A dnormal diet out of a nutritional perspective is considered "eating most things", you get a little of this, and a little of that.
Nutritional supplements can be necessary for some with some medical conditions, they might not get enough, as with mal-nourished people. 
As for metal *poisoning* (that is a very high intake of lead, chromium, aluminum or other metals) we have a medical procedure that uses a chemical process called Chelation.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

You're supporting my case with every post you make, and yet you're asking me for an explanation. It's simple - if you eat an unhealthy diet for a particular length of time, and lead an unhealthy lifestyle, your body will not function perfectly. In a healthy state, our bodies absorb what is needed and eliminate what is not. In an unhealthy state, our bodies are not as good at either thing. 

You're aware of how mercury can build in bodily tissue, right? Or how you can have less than desirable iron levels? And copper? What is it that you want me to explain? And what part of these issue has science failed to recognize?


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You're supporting my case with every post you make, and yet you're asking me for an explanation. It's simple - if you eat an unhealthy diet for a particular length of time, and lead an unhealthy lifestyle, your body will not function perfectly. In a healthy state, our bodies absorb what is needed and eliminate what is not. In an unhealthy state, our bodies are not as good at either thing.
> 
> You're aware of how mercury can build in bodily tissue, right? Or how you can have less than desirable iron levels? And copper? What is it that you want me to explain? And what part of these issue has science failed to recognize?



Yup, the term "mad as a hatter" comes from mercury poisoning. When we have levels of metals that are less or more than desireable, we seek *medical* treatment. Iron, mercury and copper buildups are treated with chelation, deficiancys are treated with supplements.

Sceince has not failed to recognize anything. They do not accept detoxing, and they shouldn't either. It's unproven that the toxins practitioners are afraid of exists, they have failed to validate their methods, they cannot link heavy metal toxicity to a healthy human being eating a diet resonably free from metals, they cannot prove they can help with heavy metal toxicity (hell, even I can do that). 

They have *not* met the test, they can *not* prove anything, they have *no* scientific merit.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

You're very much missing the point. I'm saying that metals are one form of toxin that may be referred to in a detox program. I'm saying that these "toxins" are not necessarily random, inherently poisonous substances that are never actually found in our bodies, as you suggested.

Even then, you're still mistakingly implying that I'm saying that a healthy human would need to be detoxed. 

Read the book I mentioned. There's many, many people who have followed Cherie Calbom's programs and have reported remarkable results. If such accounts don't give credence to her program in particular, then whatever, basically.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You're very much missing the point. I'm saying that metals are one form of toxin that may be referred to in a detox program. I'm saying that these "toxins" are not necessarily random, inherently poisonous substances that are never actually found in our bodies, as you suggested.
> 
> Even then, you're still mistakingly implying that I'm saying that a healthy human would need to be detoxed.
> 
> Read the book I mentioned. There's many, many people who have followed Cherie Calbom's programs and have reported remarkable results. If such accounts don't give credence to her program in particular, then whatever, basically.



Testimonials are not credible evidence when evaluating succes for a treatment, the human mind is highly suggestible, and is not trustworthy in these matters.

And you are missing my point, they have failed to prove their treatments actually do *anything*, except maybe for a valletectomy.
When you are sick you go to a doctor, not some voodoo woman who claims juices can cure you of your illness (I looked her up)
But if you do, you should probably seek another kind of treatment


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

...eating or drinking healthy things can not improve your health? Fasting, when done properly, has no benefit what so ever? If your answer to these questions is "no", I honestl have no interest in this discussion.

..and when I'm sick, my doctor either gives me pain medication, anti-biotics, or some other medication that causes more issues than it helps. Vitamins and dietary changes almost always help me much more than anything the doctors are pushing.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> ...eating or drinking healthy things can not improve your health? Fasting, when done properly, has no benefit what so ever? If your answer to these questions is "no", I honestl have no interest in this discussion.



Eating and drinking healthy is very important, as I have previously stated, but you seems to be wanting to straw-man me (I'm not getting into that). But if you are eating a balanced diet, there is no real benefits in trying to load even more nutrition on the plate. 
Fasting has no *confirmed* medical benefits. So I would say "no" (for the moment) on the last question, guess you dodged that bullet by retreating, right?


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 20, 2011)

I thought fasting was a religious thing... *braces self to be hit*


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> I thought fasting was a religious thing... *braces self to be hit*



Not necessarily, it can also be used in bullshit health claims.


----------



## Pooluke41 (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> ...eating or drinking healthy things can not improve your health? Fasting, when done properly, has no benefit what so ever? If your answer to these questions is "no", I honestl have no interest in this discussion.
> 
> ..and when I'm sick, my doctor either gives me pain medication, anti-biotics, or some other medication that causes more issues than it helps. Vitamins and dietary changes almost always help me much more than anything the doctors are pushing.




I know this is an Extreme, but fasting and dietary changes would not help with something like; Encephalitis (which I somehow got with Chickenpox as a small boy.. ) Cancer, Syphillis, Leprosy and all these bad things, Yes they may _*help*_ with things like Diabetes but I honestly think these "Juices" and "Detox sessions" and such are just absolute rubbish compared to good medicine, Vitamins cannot cure a serious problem (Except Scurvy and Vitamin deficiencies) These "cures" only help things like; Indigestion, nausea, tiredness. Not real problems,

Of course this is all my opinion,

Also lets get back on topic.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> ..and when I'm sick, my doctor either gives me pain medication, anti-biotics, or some other medication that causes more issues than it helps. Vitamins and dietary changes almost always help me much more than anything the doctors are pushing.



....And there the tin-foil hat comes out.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

I've retreated from nothing here. The juice lady's program involves eating specific, organic foods, and giving your digestive tract a bit of a break by drinking fresh juices. Fasting takes strain off of some of your bodily functions and helps it to regenerate more efficiently. Mind you, I'm talking about juice fasting rather than fasting by not eating or drinking anything at all.

You're still flat out implying that I've been suggesting that detox diets or extra attention to nutrition is necessarily for healthy people.... I'm not


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 20, 2011)

Oh... Juicing. I've heard of that. That John Pinette guy did it and he said it made him shit like crazy.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Jakke said:


> ....And there the tin-foil hat comes out.




Oh, sure - antibiotic don't kill both good and bad bacteria in your gut. Opiates are perfectly safe. There has never been a legitimate case of adverse side effects from medication. *sarcasm* What planet are you from?

Making sure you get the right vitamins and nutrition are always FAR safer than relying on medications. Whether or not that works for everybody is another question. 

Anyway, this has gotten way off track.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 20, 2011)

Jakke said:


> ....And there the tin-foil hat comes out.



For the record, I too avoid doctors when I get sick unless whatever it is completely owns me. Then I usually go to the doctor for fear that I might die. But I've noticed that typically I can get over the more common sicknesses a tad quicker (maybe just by a few days or so) than most ppl around me. I'm not a doctor, but my guess is that it has to do with my letting my body just fight off the weaker ones itself rather than taking medicine. I just don't think I always "need" it.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I've retreated from nothing here. The juice lady's program involves eating specific, organic foods, and giving your digestive tract a bit of a break by drinking fresh juices. Fasting takes strain off of some of your bodily functions and helps it to regenerate more efficiently. Mind you, I'm talking about juice fasting rather than fasting by not eating or drinking anything at all.
> 
> You're still flat out implying that I've been suggesting that detox diets or extra attention to nutrition is necessarily for healthy people.... I'm not



Again, where are the independent studies that proves you right?


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> For the record, I too avoid doctors when I get sick unless whatever it is completely owns me. Then I usually go to the doctor for fear that I might die. But I've noticed that typically I can get over the more common sicknesses a tad quicker (maybe just by a few days or so) than most ppl around me. I'm not a doctor, but my guess is that it has to do with my letting my body just fight off the weaker ones itself rather than taking medicine. I just don't think I always "need" it.



I go strictly by track record, modern medicine Vs home remedies.
If it works for you, great. But it is not worthwile to pursue unless a benefit can be seen for a greater amount of people. But, I'm glad you have found the formula that works for you


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

My girlfriend got sick as hell about two weeks ago. I didn't stop kissing her or do anything out of the ordinary. I just made sure I took the recommended amount of vitamins and kept eating right. Aside from one day of a slightly sore throat, that was probably due to dry air from the heating in the house, I didn't get sick at all. She's been taking typical cold and flu medicine and still isn't over it. 

Of course, my immunity is just strong than hers..

But, to call any claim about the adverse side effects of prescription medicine tin-foil hat BS is seriously laughable.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Again, where are the independent studies that proves you right?




There's a ton of articles and independent studies and accounts that support my point. A quick google search on "the health benefits of juice fasting" reveals hundreds of results. If I link to any one of them, you'll just call them biased, so what's the point? Just leave it be now.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> My girlfriend got sick as hell about two weeks ago. I didn't stop kissing her or do anything out of the ordinary. I just made sure I took the recommended amount of vitamins and kept eating right. Aside from one day of a slightly sore throat, I didn't get sick at all. She's been taking typical cold and flu medicine and still isn't over it.
> 
> Of course, my immunity is just strong than hers..
> 
> But, to call any claim about the adverse side effects of prescription medicine tin-foil hat BS is seriously laughable.



But, as everyone should know, cold medications are BS as well, the common cold is a virus after all. That is one of the few cases where vitamins have a beneficial effect (up to a certain level).

Of course, no medicine is free of side-affects. But your whole idea of substituting modern medicine for vitamin supplements is interesting, how does vitamins help fight a raging infection, where anti-biotics are the only way out? How does vitamins help with heavy metal poisoning?



But yeah, this is waaay off topic, and we should get back on track


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Jakke said:


> But, as everyone should know, cold medications are BS as well, the common cold is a virus after all. That is one of the few cases where vitamins have a beneficial effect (up to a certain level).
> 
> Of course, no medicine is free of side-affects. But your whole idea of substituting modern medicine for vitamin supplements is interesting, how does vitamins help fight a raging infection, where anti-biotics are the only way out? How does vitamins help with heavy metal poisoning?
> 
> ...



You're totally putting words in my mouth - we're talking about several different things, and you're just connecting dots where ever you see fit. 

Seriously, let's move along.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You're totally putting words in my mouth - we're talking about several different things, and you're just connecting dots where ever you see fit.
> 
> Seriously, let's move along.



As you are quite adept in as well, but I agree, we should move along.


----------



## Explorer (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> There's a ton of articles and independent studies and accounts that support my point. A quick google search on "the health benefits of juice fasting" reveals hundreds of results. If I link to any one of them, you'll just call them biased, so what's the point? Just leave it be now.



Actually, some independent studies published in something like the JAMA or the Journal of Endicinlology would be considered unbiased. What you're finding in your quick Google search is selling products and giving testimonials. 

That's kind of the point you keep missing. You continually give credence to something because you aren't discriminating between good and bad information. The post I quoted here is just one example of you embracing such information, as is this one:



Adam Of Angels said:


> Read the book I mentioned. There's many, many people who have followed Cherie Calbom's programs and have reported remarkable results. If such accounts don't give credence to her program in particular, then whatever, basically.



I remember in high school and college, writing papers and needing to cite sources. I know that MLA format now allows internet sources, but no professor would let Tony Little's discussion of decent exercise be cited as a source of facts. In fact, this little unergonomic device has a lot of testimonials to support it, but it's badly designed. 







But those are the sources you keep clinging to. You might be able to recognize that Tony Little is selling something and therefore isn't unbiased, but you can't apply that same logic to those thing you keep citing.

----

I had a friend who used to go on tirades about yeast, strange remedies and so on. He would insist that he was making great sense and that we were deliberately misunderstanding. I haven't thought about him in quite a while, but something has obviously jogged my memory....


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Cherie Calbom's detox program doesn't involve any products of her own. So, yeah.

Let's move along.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 20, 2011)

These convos always take the wrong road at the fork...


----------



## Explorer (Nov 20, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> *Cherie Calbom's detox program doesn't involve any products of her own. So, yeah.*
> 
> Let's move along.



...the fuck?

Huge list of things Cherie Calbom sells, found easily through a quick search

She sells a ton of products concerning her diet program. So, nah. 

Dude. Really. Did you not know? 

Okay, I get it. You really have no clue as to what is valid in terms of a reliable, unbiased study or journal. It's probably apparent to others as well, so there's nothing to be gained here. 

Cheers!


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 20, 2011)

Ok... So, because the lady has things for sale, that means that her detox program requires you to buy those products? I specifically said that her detox program doesn't involve any products of her own, and you go on to link me to a list of products that she sells. Smart. 

Like I said, this discussion is irrelevant to the OP. I'm done with it. I know you love to attack me, but leave it be, because you're not even doing a good job.


----------



## highlordmugfug (Nov 21, 2011)

You guys are so far off topic. 


Pizza is not a vegetable.[/thread]


----------



## Xaios (Nov 21, 2011)

All I know is, when it comes to having excess levels of certain metals in my body, better safe than sorry...


----------



## Explorer (Nov 21, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I know you love to attack me, but leave it be, because you're not even doing a good job.


 
A guy hears on his car radio that there is a car going the wrong way on the freeway. "*One* car? Everyone's going the wrong way but me!"

It's not an attack on you. It's that you're making assertions which are not correct. I'm not the only one who's been pointing out where you're going wrong.

You keep insisting on certain things, and although others point out where you're mistaken, you're not able to read it and understand. That's sad, but if you ultimately want to make it about you being attacked, instead of a learning opportunity, that's up to you.

On the plus side, there is an excellent system here for reporting when there are personal attacks happening. Be sure to hit that "exclamation point" button if you feel anyone is engaging in personal attacks, even if it's me. The mods will take care of it, if it actually is a personal attack.

Cheers!


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 21, 2011)

I said that Calbom's juice program doesn't require any products of her own, and you go on to link me to a list of products she sells, as if you were somehow disproving my point. Then you make the post above this one 

I've made no assertions that are false. I've made assertions that you don't like, for whatever reason, but nothing I've said is false or even controversial. Like I said - read the book I mentioned (by the way: Cherie Calbom has a PHD in Nutrition - *edit: a Master of science in whole food nutrition, rather* - and maybe other things, though I can't remember. You asked for a credible source, and so I gave you one).

Are you convinced that your digestion can NOT become sluggish over time under any circumstances?


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

highlordmugfug said:


> You guys are so far off topic.
> 
> 
> Pizza is not a vegetable.[/thread]



No. We've clearly established that, if anything, pizza is a fruit.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Necris said:


> No. We've clearly established that, if anything, pizza is a fruit.



Heretic! *Everyone* knows that pizza is leguminous vegetable


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

I helped my grandmother plant pizza this spring. Plus, my congress knows best.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 22, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Heretic! *Everyone* knows that pizza is leguminous vegetable


 
Don't they occupy the same space in the food pyramid anyway? 

Apparently now so does pizza. So vegans can eat it now, right? Bc Congress says so.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Don't they occupy the same space in the food pyramid anyway?
> 
> Apparently now so does pizza. So vegans can eat it now, right? Bc Congress says so.



Probably...

And I haven't thought about it that way! It should be okay for vegans, it *is* a vegetable after all


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Does that make the milk that makes the cheese a vegetable as well? By that logic are cows plants?


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 22, 2011)

Necris said:


> Does that make the milk that makes the cheese a vegetable as well? By that logic are cows plants?


 
You are what you eat...?

I think we're onto something here. Get Obama on the line.


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

I'm starting a new group. Cannibalistic Plants for the Ethical Treatment of Cannibalistic Plants.


----------



## synrgy (Nov 22, 2011)

Only semi-OT (I saw some bits about flour, blah blah blah), I just wanted to say that the day a doctor tells me I can't eat pasta any more will be the day I punch a doctor in the face.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 22, 2011)

I don't think I've ever heard you mention punching anyone in the face before. Pasta = surrious biznizz...


----------



## synrgy (Nov 22, 2011)

Maternal side of my family is Italian. We basically have yeast in our bloodstream.


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I said that Calbom's juice program doesn't require any products of her own, and you go on to link me to a list of products she sells, as if you were somehow disproving my point. Then you make the post above this one
> 
> I've made no assertions that are false. I've made assertions that you don't like, for whatever reason, but nothing I've said is false or even controversial. Like I said - read the book I mentioned (by the way: Cherie Calbom has a PHD in Nutrition - *edit: a Master of science in whole food nutrition, rather* - and maybe other things, though I can't remember. You asked for a credible source, and so I gave you one).
> 
> Are you convinced that your digestion can NOT become sluggish over time under any circumstances?


I don't think anyone is claiming that the digestive system cannot become slower over time. However I also don't believe think a Masters Degree or PHD makes one infallible. In fact if anything it may make those unfamiliar with the subject more likely to accept baseless claims and erroneous information as facts. 

You try mainly consuming juice for a few days and NOT losing weight. Then assume that the book you've just read is telling you that the weight you've just lost is toxins leaving your body. If ANY of this had any basis in fact everyone would be doing it and it would show lasting results every time.


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 22, 2011)

Well the digestive track slowing down over time seems to be the way of things in general, no? Isn't that what Metamucil is for?


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

Ok.... I give a credible source, and it's no good. And I'm stupid.

Read the book, or drop it.


----------



## highlordmugfug (Nov 22, 2011)

Necris said:


> I'm starting a new group. Cannibalistic Plants for the Ethical Treatment of Cannibalistic Plants.


CP ET CP


----------



## synrgy (Nov 22, 2011)

There was some lady my Mom and one of her friends interacted with once or twice who used to like to talk about flushing toxins from one's body. She actually made the claim - and I'm dead serious, here - that everyone's eyes are naturally blue, and that if one has non-blue eyes it is because their body is full of toxins/shit.

I have blue eyes so I don't care either way, but I definitely harbor a different opinion of just whom exactly in that situation was full of shit.


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Ok.... I give a credible source, and it's no good. And I'm stupid.
> 
> Read the book, or drop it.


Are we in the same thread? Questioning the validity of these claims and their factual basis isn't the same as calling someone stupid. Your source is selling books that are the equivalent of any other fad diet with the only apparent difference being she has a Masters Degree backing hers. And no-one in this thread has called you stupid.

If I or another user were to read the book and come to the conclusion that it were a total crock of shit would you accept our viewpoint or would you just think that we were biased against the idea from the beginning and therefore could come to no other conclusion? 

Feel free to keep deflecting reasonable questions but it's not helping your case.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

There's no doubt that a lot of people talking about that stuff don't know what they're talking about. It certainly doesn't mean that's the case for all of them.


----------



## USMarine75 (Nov 22, 2011)

Sorry AoA, but I gotta agree with Jakke and Explorer on this one... I've been to a ton of medical conferences (both me and my wife have assorted medical degrees/postdoc from Harvard, tufts, and Creighton so we are authorities in this field not just BS'ing/trolling you) and detox is at the very top of the "tinfoil hat" list. I have never met a doctor or a _real_ researcher that believes in it. Most doctors I know get angry when you even mention it because the whole concept is so frought with error. 

[The only equivalent that comes to mind is trying to convince a guitar player that the Rolling Stones Top 100 Guitarist list is credible (or a Guitar World Fastest Player poll)...]

In fact, I remember detox being used as THE example of bad science in one of my research methodology classes. Another was from that nutbag Kevin Trudeau that sets medicine back 100 years every time he ghost writes a POS book. 

I dont mean to sound like a dick (although most people will tell you I am), but the problem is that most people just arent familair with concepts like the scientific method, validity, post hoc ergo propter hoc errors, etc... which is OK if you arent familiar with it. But the issue is when people that aren't familiar with or educated in these terms try and refute or make scientific claims. Its perfectly OK to discuss and inquire and debate, but at some point you have to defer to authorities on the matter. And nutraceutical manufacturers are NOT authorities, nor is anyone that is trying to sell that very product.

As an example... Post hoc errors are the most common reason why people believe in stupid shit like superstitions and nutraceuticals. E.g. You mentioned earlier that because you didnt get sick when you kissed your sick GF that it must be because you have a better/healthy immune system. But, that is baaaad science. Science doesn't work that way. That's why you never hear scientists/researchers ever say that A causes B... you hear terms like strong/weak/no correlation etc... So, if there was any evidence that supported the claim that build up in your colon caused disease I would be interested in seeing it, but so far there has been _absolutely_ none. The same is true for other batshit crazy schemes like altering your blood pH will cure disease (one of Trudeau's claims)... no it won't, but it does have a strong correlation with death lol.






^ OMFG do I hate this smug "the Gov't sensors me" dick BTW... /rant lol


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

The human body never stores toxins? 

It deals with stress, bad habits, environmental pollution, and poor diet perfectly well, no matter what the level of severity of exposure to said factors are?


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

So, pH-changes eh?



Now where did I put that sulferic acid.....


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> The human body never stores toxins?
> 
> It deals with stress, bad habits, environmental pollution, and poor diet perfectly well, no matter what the level of severity of exposure to said factors are?


A juice-based diet for a predetermined length of time can cleanse the body of those toxins?

That even sounds silly.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

Oh, you've read the book? You didn't read much of it, if that's the case.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> The human body never stores toxins?
> 
> It deals with stress, bad habits, environmental pollution, and poor diet perfectly well, no matter what the level of severity of exposure to said factors are?



you are missing the point, you are not very critical of your sources, and that is what USmarine tried to say (and he is among the most qualified of us on these matters).

The voodoo juice-lady has an agenda with what she puts out, she wants to make money. That makes her a non-credible source. We've been trying to tell you this, but you don't seem to listen.

And yes, detoxing is not accepted by any medical organization, how can that be? Could it be that no-one has ever seen a trace of these so called toxins?


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

No, I AM critical of my sources. Contrary to you understanding, I'm a very skeptical person. Ask anybody that knows me well - they'll likely tell you that I don't buy into much of anything unless it makes sense to me, and even then, not necessarily. Calbom's work makes sense. The only product that she has sold a lot of is her book. She sells no remedies or anything like that.

That's beside the point.

I asked a couple of questions:

The human body never stores toxins? 

It deals with stress, bad habits, environmental pollution, and poor diet perfectly well, no matter what the level of severity of exposure to said factors are?


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> No, I AM critical of my sources. Contrary to you understanding, I'm a very skeptical person. Ask anybody that knows me well - they'll likely tell you that I don't buy into much of anything unless it makes sense to me, and even then, not necessarily. Calbom's work makes sense. The only product that she has sold a lot of is her book. She sells no remedies or anything like that.
> 
> That's beside the point.
> 
> ...



Ok, specify toxins.


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> I've retreated from nothing here. The juice lady's program involves eating specific, organic foods, and giving your digestive tract a bit of a break by drinking fresh juices. *Fasting takes strain off of some of your bodily functions and helps it to regenerate more efficiently*. Mind you, I'm talking about juice fasting rather than fasting by not eating or drinking anything at all.


First I would like you to find anything that supports the bolded claim, secondly I would like for you to tell me how Juice fasting is any different from a diet based mainly on juice, and finally I would like you to read this and explain it away for me.

Fasting


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

Jakke said:


> Ok, specify toxins.




Literally, any toxic substance that humans are exposed to.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

Necris said:


> First I would like you to find anything that supports the bolded claim, secondly I would like for you to tell me how Juice fasting is any different from a diet based mainly on juice. And finally I would like you to read this and explain it away for me. Fasting



1. Your body uses quite a bit of energy on digestion. How is that not self-explanatory?

2. Juice fasting is a short term fast.. Your digestive tract gets a rest from having to digest solid material, and you get nutrition from juices. Anybody that only digests juice for a long period of time is either very sick, or making their self sick.

3. No, I don't have time for that  Just read the book, then tell me it was retarded, and we'll drop it


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

..I'm lead to understand that everybody posting here is of the conviction that the human body is never overloaded, or gradually weakened by its environment, diet, or habits. It's invincible.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Literally, any toxic substance that humans are exposed to.



That is such a wide stretch of compounds, some are soluble in fat, some in water, that makes them stay different amounts of time in the body. Could be heavy metals.

Frankly, that is such a ignorant statement. There is toxic substances in every chemical group, hell, even water is toxic in enough concentrations. Some even consider radiation a toxin!

So, please narrow it down, or I am forced to accept that you really do not know what you are talking about.


----------



## USMarine75 (Nov 22, 2011)

The human body absolutely stores toxins. Stress, environment, pollution, poor diet all affect the human body. You are correct. But you're jumping from A to QQQQ instead of A to B if you know what I mean. Again, not trying to be a gorilla scrotum here I'm just trying to, as the kids these days say, drop some knowledge on ya... 

e.g. Let's talk about metal toxicity since it was mentioned above. Iron is necessary for the blood hemoglobin to properly transport oxygen. So iron is not inherently bad it is a mineral and needed for life. But too little (iron deficiency) or too much (iron toxicity) is bad. Men typically need 7 mg/day and women 11 mg/day. The normal therapeutic dosage (TD) of iron is ~5 mg/kg/day. Toxicity occurs above 20 mg/kg/day and the lethal dosage (LD50) is 60 mg/kg/day. The proper treatment is chelation in this case. Chelating agents (medicine) such as Deferoxamine are used as treatment. There is no mystique behind this. There is no well I used it and it worked for me so it will work for you. There is genuine science behind it. The drugs mechanism is that it competitively binds to free iron in your blood and it is then excreted in your urine. Bam. Cured. 

It is testable and falsifiable which meet the criteria of the scientific method. I can set up a random double blind stratified (blah blah blah) experiment with control, placebo, and multiple treatment levels. We can look at the data objectively and see what it tells us about our hypothesis. We can run random trials with large randomized sample sizes. This is all proper research methodology. None of this is used with many nutraceutical products such as detox and sea salt crap. 

Now, I'm a weightlifter and I use stuff like creatine... I drink protein shakes... I use to take hydroxycut back in the day when it had ephedra. Because these have been tested and found to demonstrate results of significance above placebo levels. But even I realize that their production isnt monitored by anyone (including the FDA) so I could be drinking horse semen and I wouldn't know... well, I would, but you know what I mean. So buyer beware and do your research.

tl;dr stay away from detox, Kevin Trudeau, and horse semen.


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> 1. Your body uses quite a bit of energy on digestion. How is that not self-explanatory?
> 
> 2. Juice fasting is a short term fast.. Your digestive tract gets a rest from having to digest solid material, and you get nutrition from juices. Anybody that only digests juice for a long period of time is either very sick, or making their self sick.
> 
> 3. No, I don't have time for that  Just read the book, then tell me it was retarded, and we'll drop it



Your body will still be digesting the juice and during the time you are fasting you will also be depriving your body of certain nutrients. How does that not put more stress on your body? I won't read a book if you won't read 2 pages worth of text.


I'm happy to leave it at this though and get back to the topic at hand. Pizza isn't a vegetable and no-one currently in congress should be allowed to keep their job for claiming that it is.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

USMarine75 said:


> tl;dr stay away from detox, Kevin Trudeau, and horse semen.



All very sound advice


----------



## highlordmugfug (Nov 22, 2011)

synrgy said:


> There was some* lady* my Mom and one of her friends interacted with once or twice who used to like to talk about flushing toxins from one's body. She actually made the claim - and I'm dead serious, here - that *everyone's eyes are naturally blue, and that if one has non-blue eyes it is because their body is full of toxins/shit.*
> 
> I have blue eyes so I don't care either way, but I definitely harbor a different opinion of just whom exactly in that situation was full of shit.








Did she look like this?


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

Necris said:


> Your body will still be digesting the juice and during the time you are fasting you will also be depriving your body of certain nutrients. How does that not put more stress on your body? I won't read a book if you won't read 2 pages worth of text.
> 
> 
> I'm happy to leave it at this though and get back to the topic at hand. Pizza isn't a vegetable and no-one currently in congress should be allowed to keep their job for claiming that it is.




You think your body uses just as much energy to absorb liquid as it does to digest solid matter? Really? And, fresh juices that you juice yourself are full of nutrients and vitamins - you'll do just fine. You can go a VERY long time without eating and live, so don't think you'll be depriving yourself much if at all, granted that you're doing it right.

And, reading 2 pages is much different commenting on it everything in it and more or less writing a research paper for you. Read the book I mentioned, since it's written by a reputable person, or don't have this conversation any further.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

Jakke said:


> That is such a wide stretch of compounds, some are soluble in fat, some in water, that makes them stay different amounts of time in the body. Could be heavy metals.
> 
> Frankly, that is such a ignorant statement. There is toxic substances in every chemical group, hell, even water is toxic in enough concentrations. Some even consider radiation a toxin!
> 
> So, please narrow it down, or I am forced to accept that you really do not know what you are talking about.




...wait, so unless I narrow it down, my claim that that body can store toxins is completely fallible? It wasn't even a specific statement, and you want me to specify? The point has nothing to do with specific toxins, it has to do with the fact that body can store a variety of toxins, and can become burdened to the point where it can't properly eliminate those toxins, whatever they may be, or wherever they may come from. For example, most of the fruit and vegetables that are marketed in this country are grown with chemicals and sprayed with a variety of pesticides. These substance are toxic. You won't die, and might not even get sick from eating an apple that was sprayed with pesticides, but your body does have to deal with those chemicals in some way. There are air pollutants that we all breath in, both in our homes and in the outside air. There are pollutants and in a lot of our drinking water. What does pointing these out prove or disprove? My point doesn't rely on specific chemicals, its just that your body can become burdened by them over time.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 22, 2011)

USMarine75 said:


> The human body absolutely stores toxins. Stress, environment, pollution, poor diet all affect the human body. You are correct. But you're jumping from A to QQQQ instead of A to B if you know what I mean. Again, not trying to be a gorilla scrotum here I'm just trying to, as the kids these days say, drop some knowledge on ya...
> 
> e.g. Let's talk about metal toxicity since it was mentioned above. Iron is necessary for the blood hemoglobin to properly transport oxygen. So iron is not inherently bad it is a mineral and needed for life. But too little (iron deficiency) or too much (iron toxicity) is bad. Men typically need 7 mg/day and women 11 mg/day. The normal therapeutic dosage (TD) of iron is ~5 mg/kg/day. Toxicity occurs above 20 mg/kg/day and the lethal dosage (LD50) is 60 mg/kg/day. The proper treatment is chelation in this case. Chelating agents (medicine) such as Deferoxamine are used as treatment. There is no mystique behind this. There is no well I used it and it worked for me so it will work for you. There is genuine science behind it. The drugs mechanism is that it competitively binds to free iron in your blood and it is then excreted in your urine. Bam. Cured.
> 
> ...





Nothing you mentioned here violates anything I've brought up. My point is that the body can store toxins and can be weakened by environment, diet, stress, habits, etc. 

A whole plethora of herbs, vegetables, fruits, etc. are known to have very measurable health benefits. Correct?

Edit: for the record, I've never even heard of this Kevin fellow. I don't buy into the majority of the bullshit out there about detoxing, as most of it doesn't even logically make sense. I didn't buy into any of it until I read Cherie Calbom's book. She doesn't make any radical claims, and she explains her claims in detail.. Thus, why I'm referring to her book.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> ...wait, so unless I narrow it down, my claim that that body can store toxins is completely fallible? It wasn't even a specific statement, and you want me to specify? The point has nothing to do with specific toxins, it has to do with the fact that body can store a variety of toxins, and can become burdened to the point where it can't properly eliminate those toxins, whatever they may be, or wherever they may come from. For example, most of the fruit and vegetables that are marketed in this country are grown with chemicals and sprayed with a variety of pesticides. These substance are toxic. You won't die, and might not even get sick from eating an apple that was sprayed with pesticides, but your body does have to deal with those chemicals in some way. There are air pollutants that we all breath in, both in our homes and in the outside air. There are pollutants and in a lot of our drinking water. What does pointing these out prove or disprove? My point doesn't rely on specific chemicals, its just that your body can become burdened by them over time.




Ah, but a lot of chemicals do not really burden the body. That is mostly those that are soluble in water (you pee them out).
As a matter of fact, modern pesticides are pretty low risk. Chemically it's often more dangerous to eat ecologically grown apples than conventional. That is because modern pesticides are, as just said, not very toxic, while ecological farmers has to use bullshit (litterally), and there is all sorts of disgusting crap in shit.
Air pollutants are mostly macro particles that generally don't go into our systems, they are most often stopped in the airways, where we have a very effective barrier that is made to deal with stuff like that.


However, those that mostly accumulate are those that are soluble in fat, they go into the body's fat reserves. If you would fall victim to such a toxicity it is vital that you do *not* undergo some sort of detox. Because, when you do, you loose weight, fat is broken down, and all the crap that you had stored until now is released. So, from my point of view (a scientific), detox is more likely (faaaar more likely) to hurt you than to help.

But for that scenario to occur, you would first have to establish that we do get a high amount of accumulating poisons in our daily lives. So far no-one has ever established that link. But if you go into bio-chemistry, you could prove it yourself!

Also, before you mention it, the cocktail effect is just as unproven as detoxing. so it's probably not worth that you bring it up.


----------



## Necris (Nov 22, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> You think your body uses just as much energy to absorb liquid as it does to digest solid matter? Really?


 I clearly didn't say that, I simply pointed out that with this "detox" you are still putting some amount of stress on your digestive system. Or am I missing something? That you can go for a long time without eating and survive is common knowledge.

I don't buy into the idea that the process of digestion is so strenuous on your body that every once in a while for a few days you need to stop consuming solid food so that your body has time to cleanse itself of built up toxins and can't find any evidence to support it. But I'm sure I'd find plenty in your wonderful little book were I to open it.


----------



## Jakke (Nov 22, 2011)

Quackwatch has an article on detox:

Quackwatch: Detox

And on gastrointernal cleansing:

Gastrointernal quackery


----------



## USMarine75 (Nov 23, 2011)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Nothing you mentioned here violates anything I've brought up. My point is that the body can store toxins and can be weakened by environment, diet, stress, habits, etc.
> 
> A whole plethora of herbs, vegetables, fruits, etc. are known to have very measurable health benefits. Correct?


 
I was trying to make the point (with my analogy) that _this_ is how science / scientific method _really_ works...* it's evidence based, testable, peer-reviewable, & repeatable*. That's why I used the iron toxicity example because it _is_ well researched, it has a known mechanism, and there have been countless studies and a plethora of evidence (data, case study) to support that it does indeed work. Moreover, there is _no_ evidence/experiments/hypotheses to the contrary.

None of the quackery, such as colon cleansing & detox, utilize any of these methods.

You are correct with your premises and no one is debating them... but then you're drawing a conclusion that is a deductive fallacy = Basically, A B and C are all true so my conclusion of Z must be correct. A lot of nutraceutical claims are simply_ post hoc ergo proptor hoc_ arguments = when you see that A occurs and then B occurs and so you *assume* they are linked. 

An example is when, back in the 70's, President Ford wanted everyone to take the first gov't backed and distributed flu vaccines. All of a sudden everyone came down with diseases like GBS and some even died _so of course it was the vaccine_. But the truth is, in a large enough sample size random shit happens (called outliers or anomalies). Statistically, there is a chance I vaccinate you and then you have a heart attack and die within an hour (that you would have had anyway)... in reality there might be 0% correlation between the two events. But your mom freaks out and says OMFG the vaccine killed you. A happened and then B, so therefore she has "_proof_" right? Wrong. See how that works?

Did you see the posts on here about neutrinos supposedly travelling faster that the speed of light and how that might invalidate some of Einstein's benchmark theories? One of the highlights of the article is that the reserarchers were challenging other labs to replicate their findings. Why is that? Why would I dare others to reproduce my work? Because if an independent lab reproduces my same results it helps me because it validates _my_ theory. This is the concept of *peer review*... and nutraceuticals rarely if ever have any peer review.

Basically, they make a claim, but no one knows their exact ingredients, no one monitors them for any form of quality assurance, they are NOT legally allowed to make health claims, and their so-called university studies are hilariously fraught with so much error and bogus science. Basically, the same _quality_ of evidence for many of these homeopathic cures is also found in faith-healing (e.g. Christian Science).


----------



## USMarine75 (Nov 23, 2011)

Sorry for double posting... but another GREAT site is:

The Skeptics Society & Skeptic magazine


----------



## Explorer (Nov 23, 2011)

USM, apparently SS.org doesn't want me to demonstrate my love for you again publically through positive rep, so this note and two likes will have to do.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 25, 2011)

I missed the continuation of this discussion.

Necris: No need to be bitter. I didn't say that the body needs a few days free from digesting solid food in order to rid itself of accumulated toxins. I said that the body has more energy to regenerate if it is spending less energy on digesting solid food, especially if you're drinking freshly juiced vegetables to nourish your system. That is, of course, only a good idea for very short periods of time.

Jakke: I didn't say that you absorbed a high amount of toxins on a daily basis. I said that when the body becomes weakened by bad habits, stress, environmental influences, diet, etc., it can have trouble defending itself against a wealth of toxins that it is frequently exposed to in today's world. This is not inconceivable, and is actually a newer area of concern, at least in the western world.

USMarine75: I'm not refuting anything that you're saying. My points were that the body can become toxic, at least to some degree, over a given period of time, and that it is widely known and understood that different types of food are excellent sources of nutrition and support for the body. It's not inconceivable that by strengthening the body with whole foods and health-benefiting habits you can begin to reverse the effects of bad habits, poor diet, etc.


Like I said, I don't actually buy into the vast majority of what these detox-advocates are saying. I'm just saying that Cherie Calbom knows what she's talking about, and there's a lot to learn from her way of thinking. Never did I say that scientists don't know what they're talking about or anything to that effect. There's a lot of assumptions about what I'm implying being made here, and I feel like those assumptions may feel necessary in order to dismiss what I'm saying entirely. That is, however, unnecessary.


----------



## daemon barbeque (Nov 25, 2011)

Just beause it's not proven does not make it untrue

Just because someone is well known it it's field doesn't make his/her claims right

Just because someone gets better after some sort of detox does not make the detox credible. Placebo is the keyword

Just because big companies and some studies find some medicine good doesn't mean it's good. Many people "die" from safe medicine. check the drug "mediator".

Just because it comes from fruits doesn't make the juice "good" or "healing". On contrary, mixing juices might cause other problems.

Detoxicating is a "huge" word which is used as snake oil advertisement. It's hard to diffrantiate the good from the hoax.


----------



## Adam Of Angels (Nov 25, 2011)

I fully agree with all points.


----------



## The Reverend (Nov 25, 2011)

If only Congress had debated the pizza/vegetable issue with this level of intensity.


----------



## Don Vito (Nov 26, 2011)

vampiregenocide said:


> I swear America has become a parody of itself. I used to laugh when people make jokes about stereotypical America, but now I don't because the real thing is just so hilarious but equally frightening that there's no competition. This is why The Onion catches me off guard; half the shit it jokes about _could actually happen_ in America.
> 
> The rest of the world laughs nervously.


I legitmately thought this was from The Onion.


----------



## bigchocolateman (Nov 28, 2011)

Little Caesars here I come!


----------



## Konfyouzd (Nov 28, 2011)

Why is this thread still alive? Someone take it out of its misery.


----------



## renzoip (Nov 29, 2011)

Pizza is officially my new favorite vegetable


----------



## Grand Moff Tim (Dec 2, 2011)

Bump.

I had to.


----------



## USMarine75 (Dec 21, 2011)

This belongs in multiple threads...


----------

