# Headless build underway! - lush Purple burst content!



## lewis (Sep 14, 2017)

Just paid for this custom order purple burst headless 6 string strandberg copy.
Will be my first headless and I am in love with the colour. Order comes with hardcase and will take about 5-6 weeks until Its built and shipped.

Looking for something "cheaper" first to see how I like the shape and design etc. This was a steal really.

Now for the pictures. Gorgeous -















































Will post a proper NGD when it arrives, with pics, video clips and an unbiased review.


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## exo (Sep 14, 2017)

Can of worms opened.......


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 14, 2017)

hopefully you don't get a firewood guitar.


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## ThePIGI King (Sep 14, 2017)

That neck heel?

Otherwise interested to see how it turns out!


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 14, 2017)

Oh man. Cant wait for this NGD. The veneer will likely be nicest part of that guitar. But good luck. I hope I'm wrong


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## narad (Sep 14, 2017)

Yea, this is a bit worrisome. Hopefully don't base your opinion of all headless guitars on this one!


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## lewis (Sep 14, 2017)

i know all about the stigma/bad love about these from previous threads.
For these prices it didnt really weight THAT heavily on my decision.
And to be fair, the dude seems a lovely guy based on a convo Ive had with him since. hahah

I will be blunt either way. End of the day if I get just a great looking lemon I will say so but equally if these are actually really good I will also say so.
Sometimes people are quick to write something off before they themselves have even tried it.

he has also told me you can get anything built by them so thats quite cool at these prices.
Lets just wait and see. I will update as and when I get info through. I will get to see pictures of the actual build before ok'ing to be posted to me so If I notice some suspect stuff off the pics at least I can get them sorted his end.

Meanwhile, this video was what made me decide to give it a go seeing as how reasonably priced they are.
Mahogany body, rosewood board. 25.5 scale etc.

-


(I do have some EMG stuff laying around I will do to the guitar as I expect the stock pickups to be garbage - like this guy did)

but man that purple veneer.........its stunning.


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## farren (Sep 14, 2017)

Every guitar should be either purple or green.


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## lewis (Sep 14, 2017)

farren said:


> Every guitar should be either purple or green.


here here!. 
My two favourite colours.


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## lewis (Sep 14, 2017)

ThePIGI King said:


> That neck heel?
> 
> Otherwise interested to see how it turns out!


yeah it looks comfy still whilst looking a little odd!.


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## smokiekouki (Sep 14, 2017)

That bridge is interesting. The top is gorgeous though for sure.


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## lewis (Sep 14, 2017)

smokiekouki said:


> That bridge is interesting. The top is gorgeous though for sure.


The tiny little piece of bridge sticking out on the left of one of the pictures, is actually a tiny little "z" shaped key that you place in each nut above the string on the bridge, and thats how you tune each string. Apparently its held onto the bridge by magnet. Not sure whether thats nifty or stupid...lol


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## Ataraxia2320 (Sep 14, 2017)

Will be stoked to hear how this one turns out. Doesn't sound too bad on the video whatsoever.


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

does anyone think I should opt for Maple fretboard instead of Rosewood?.
I cant decide. Im leaning towards keeping it rosewood on this because the darker board seems to really pop against the veneer.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 15, 2017)

Hopefully whatever you get actually looks like the pictures.

The hard case these comes with fits a strandberg and is the best part about the guitar


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> Hopefully whatever you get actually looks like the pictures.
> 
> The hard case these comes with fits a strandberg and is the best part about the guitar


did you order one yourself?

Care to share experiences if you did?


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

I have asked him to move the top horn strap button to the back of the horn rather than the top of the horn and he has agreed to do that for me.

They wiggle loose to easily in my experiences when in the top of the horn.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 15, 2017)

lewis said:


> did you order one yourself?
> 
> Care to share experiences if you did?



A guy a play with bought one for his kid. As long as the neck is straight and isn't warped it will need a fret job on the fret ends and a level. 
He's a tech he doesn't mind buying stuff like this. He can reseat and redo the entire neck if he has too. 

Just make sure you budget for a setup.


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> A guy a play with bought one for his kid. As long as the neck is straight and isn't warped it will need a fret job on the fret ends and a level.
> He's a tech he doesn't mind buying stuff like this. He can reseat and redo the entire neck if he has too.
> 
> Just make sure you budget for a setup.


ok thanks.
I will bare that in mind.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 15, 2017)

The case is fantastic tho.


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## knet370 (Sep 15, 2017)

Can you request also to trim the neck heel aswell so that it sits flush to the neck pocket of the body?


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

knet370 said:


> Can you request also to trim the neck heel aswell so that it sits flush to the neck pocket of the body?


you can yes I believe.
You have to do it at the initial Order stage though. Im past that now and it was just abit lucky I could have the strap button relocated. He done me abit of a favor.

His correspondence is excellent. Im sure if you shot him a message before even ordering, and asked if he could do that, he would tell you.


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

I thought this neck heel looked familiar.

I have this shape on both of my 80's Yamaha's. It does not affect play-ability so actually its less of a deal than I thought it was initially. -


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## Ataraxia2320 (Sep 15, 2017)

After doing a bit of research it seems like they arent too accurate with the scale length which means the guitar might never actually be able to play in tune. Hopefully this wont be the case with yours!


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## lewis (Sep 15, 2017)

Ataraxia2320 said:


> After doing a bit of research it seems like they arent too accurate with the scale length which means the guitar might never actually be able to play in tune. Hopefully this wont be the case with yours!


yeah judging by that Youtube video.

If the bridge needs to be moved then so be it. I trust the guy who made the youtube video I shared of the natural finish one and he didnt have issues.

Maybe it is completely random.
I can always ask him to take a picture of him measuring mine before sending it, to show me the scale length.

Tbh Im not sure how they could mess up the length. The bodies are all identical cut with CNC and they use the same size necks on all of them. The bridges are all the same too and are mounted right at the back of the body so theoretically they should all be the exact same scale.

Not sure how you could mess that up. Putting on the hardware on the skew however is an issue that can easily happen.
Again I can hopefully spot any shit in the pre postage pics when its done.


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## A-Branger (Sep 16, 2017)

lewis said:


> does anyone think I should opt for Maple fretboard instead of Rosewood?.
> I cant decide. Im leaning towards keeping it rosewood on this because the darker board seems to really pop against the veneer.



due to the CITES thing going on I would advice against rosewood, that unless you want your guitar to be stuck at customs for ever and ever.

Not sure what choices they can give you, but to be sure, stay away from rosewood. They might "have" the paperwork, but I wont really trust much a china copy factory thing



lewis said:


> I thought this neck heel looked familiar.



thats because its a generic neck. They slap the smae design neck to everything. Thats why China copies are that cheap, they jsut mass produce the same necks with minimal changes


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## lewis (Sep 16, 2017)

A-Branger said:


> *due to the CITES thing going on I would advice against rosewood, that unless you want your guitar to be stuck at customs for ever and ever*.
> 
> Not sure what choices they can give you, but to be sure, stay away from rosewood. They might "have" the paperwork, but I wont really trust much a china copy factory thing
> 
> ...



Fuck yeah....never thought of that.

Dont know what to do about that. Should I ask him about it?. He seems a decent bloke tbf.


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 16, 2017)

The biggest concern, outside of no real return policy/quality control, is usually the hardware on these things is meh. On most guitars it's no big deal since new tuners are super easy to come by, but this one is a bit more unique so it's a bit more scary.

These cheap knock offs can be good though. It's all a matter of luck, however. Good luck, and I look forward to seeing it when done! Hopefully it'll be a nice little axe.


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## lewis (Sep 16, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> The biggest concern, outside of no real return policy/quality control, is usually the hardware on these things is meh. On most guitars it's no big deal since new tuners are super easy to come by, but this one is a bit more unique so it's a bit more scary.
> 
> These cheap knock offs can be good though. It's all a matter of luck, however. Good luck, and I look forward to seeing it when done! Hopefully it'll be a nice little axe.


absolutely agree.
Normally you order a cheap guitar and can just swap the tuners and bridge out for something better.
This is way more specialist. Have no idea what bridge might replace the stock one, if that ends up being garbage haha.

Also, Im not sure If Ive seen a headless tone block thing (top of fretboard end) thats similar to this either haha.

Well lets see like you say.
Im also looking forward to it as I havent a clue what to expect.


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

Speaking to Sean the builder regards to Rosewood issues.
He claims he has had some recent UK orders sent with rosewood and none of the customers reported an issue with it arriving or being stuck at customs.

Still its worrying me a little.
Ive asked him if he sells these necks separately. Im thinking if he does, to change my order to have a maple fretboard on this purple burst guitar. Then order at a later date, a rosewood fretboard neck as a spare, and see if it gets through customs ok from him. If there are issues and it takes months to clear through, I would rather it be just a neck Im stuck waiting for, than a whole guitar if that makes sense.

Plus if this guitar is decent, and plays well with no issues, I would be tempted to order a few more to hang around my studio to give me different sounds for recording. (Install different pickups in all of them) so having a spare neck that fits all of them isnt a bad idea at all.

Will wait and see what he says about this.


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

UPDATE:
Also enquired about Ebony as I completely forgot that could be an option until just now haha.


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## Winspear (Sep 17, 2017)

I have access to a large amount of richlite (black) if that's of interest


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

Winspear said:


> I have access to a large amount of richlite (black) if that's of interest


ooh just saw this a tad to late.
He can offer Ebony and Ive already paid the $25 extra for it now. 
Thanks anyway bud.


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

Order consists of

Purple burst finish
Ebony fretboard upgrade + $25
Relocated strap button to behind horn instead of on the top

Its going to look amazing at least haha


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## exo (Sep 17, 2017)

LIf this works out in a positive way, I will be HIGHLY inclined to investigate the semi-hollow 7 strings these guys offer......it'll still be a tough sell to wife none the less (I recently "found" a guitar in a case I'd forgotten I'd put it in, and got what can only be described as the "eyeroll from hell"....), but I'll DEFINITELY be interested in another style of guitar I don't have but have no honest use for......


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

exo said:


> LIf this works out in a positive way, I will be HIGHLY inclined to investigate the semi-hollow 7 strings these guys offer......it'll still be a tough sell to wife none the less (I recently "found" a guitar in a case I'd forgotten I'd put it in, and got what can only be described as the "eyeroll from hell"....), but I'll DEFINITELY be interested in another style of guitar I don't have but have no honest use for......


that semi hollow 7 is lovely!. Not going to lie hahahah
Im surprised my missus is not at this stage.
Mind you she knows she cant I guess because I pay way more into the house per month than her. (part time, pregnant)

I will 100% be un biased. So far though, just dealing with the guy and whats on offer. It SEEMS great. His customer service and response times is amazingly fast.

Ive worked out they cant do Tremolo bridges (there are tremolo versions of the exact same bridge they use on these headless's but for some reason they dont use them and cannot use them. - ah well)

But everything else seems a go-er. Ebony fretboard upgrade cost me $25. Well worth it.


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 17, 2017)

I wouldn't trust a trem out of one of these factories anyway. lol There are enough legit production guitars where the trem is absolutely trash, I'd never even consider gambling on it.

Customer service always seems to be relatively decent. They'll respond to you and work out specs and stuff. That's never the issue. Misaligned holes are one of the largest issues, right alongside poor craftsmanship. (think separating glue joints.) I've actually had decent luck with Chinese kit guitars. Right now I have a 7 string explorer that I bought as a kit from pitbull guitars (or something along those lines... They're based in Australia.) The two issues with it are that the stop bar is slightly askew (factory's fault) and the nut was cut poorly. (My fault... I was drunk and impatient so I actually cut the string grooves with a steak knife. Not my proudest moment.) 

The skewed stop bar isn't bad and doesn't effect intonation or string integrity, but it definitely looks weird. Just EVER so slightly wrong. There's a good chance you'll have to do a lot of setup work on it, including fret leveling/dressing. The thing I'd be most worried about is how accurate the routes and stuff are. I've seen some really sketchy crooked pickups and poorly measured bridge pieces. If it can intonate, the truss rod functions, and the pickups are mounted/routed right, then most of the other shit can be changed. Good luck, I wish you the best. I'm interested to see what you think about it when it arrives.


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## exo (Sep 17, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> I wouldn't trust a trem out of one of these factories anyway. lol There are enough legit production guitars where the trem is absolutely trash, I'd never even consider gambling on it.
> 
> Customer service always seems to be relatively decent. They'll respond to you and work out specs and stuff. That's never the issue. Misaligned holes are one of the largest issues, right alongside poor craftsmanship. (think separating glue joints.) I've actually had decent luck with Chinese kit guitars. Right now I have a 7 string explorer that I bought as a kit from pitbull guitars (or something along those lines... They're based in Australia.) The two issues with it are that the stop bar is slightly askew (factory's fault) and the nut was cut poorly. (My fault... I was drunk and impatient so I actually cut the string grooves with a steak knife. Not my proudest moment.)
> 
> The skewed stop bar isn't bad and doesn't effect intonation or string integrity, but it definitely looks weird. Just EVER so slightly wrong. There's a good chance you'll have to do a lot of setup work on it, including fret leveling/dressing. The thing I'd be most worried about is how accurate the routes and stuff are. I've seen some really sketchy crooked pickups and poorly measured bridge pieces. If it can intonate, the truss rod functions, and the pickups are mounted/routed right, then most of the other shit can be changed. Good luck, I wish you the best. I'm interested to see what you think about it when it arrives.



"Drunk and impatient" is why I am about to hand the missus the bank card......

Pit bull kits have a decent rep, if I remember correctly.

so many "wants" that are not "needs" though. The "need" for a second as stop tune drop c# thankfully overrides me "wants" at the moment


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 17, 2017)

double post. how i delete. door.


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

yeah for sure.

Maybe when I review it on the NGD thread, I should break down the two categories.

Finish - how good or not the finish is, any blemishes/binding issues or not

playa-bility - how good is the hardware/frets/neck/board (remember I paid extra for "Ebony" so lets see)

If it plays garbage but looks lovely then MAYBE its salvageable with lots of alterations and adjustments.

Im willing to give them the benefit of the doubt though.


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## exo (Sep 17, 2017)

exo said:


> "Drunk and impatient" is why I am about to hand the missus the bank card......
> 
> Pit bull kits have a decent rep, if I remember correctly.
> 
> so many "wants" that are not "needs" though. The "need" for a second as stop tune drop c# thankfully overrides me "wants" at the moment



This is why I'm handing the wife the bank card, kids....."second as stop tune drop c#"?!?!

Seriously, WTF, autocorrect......reasonably sure YOU are drunk, and not me.....

I need a second BASS, people, I don't know WTF my phone is trying to tell you all.....


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

exo said:


> This is why I'm handing the wife the bank card, kids....."second as stop tune drop c#"?!?!
> 
> Seriously, WTF, autocorrect......reasonably sure YOU are drunk, and not me.....
> 
> I need a *second BASS*, people, I don't know WTF my phone is trying to tell you all.....



have you seen the AWESOME one that this shop sells? - 














I want this one too haha

$550 + free shipping


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## exo (Sep 17, 2017)

Yup. It just the whole "terrible Chinese QC" thing that leaves me hesitating. I don't have the tools or experience to mine gold out of something that's "almost" awesome.

That's the ONLY thing that stops me from ordering.


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## lewis (Sep 17, 2017)

exo said:


> Yup. It just the whole "terrible Chinese QC" thing that leaves me hesitating. I don't have the tools or experience to mine gold out of something that's "almost" awesome.
> 
> That's the ONLY thing that stops me from ordering.


I read alot of the sites reviews from customers who have bought these and they even uploaded pictures etc.
MOST of them are saying how playable they are right out the box so lets see. We may be surprised.


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## Hollowway (Sep 17, 2017)

Eh, I think you're looking at a selected group of reviews. I have yet to see a preponderance of positive reviews of these Chinese copies. Periodically, people say they're going to get one and review for all of us to see. Every once in a while we'll see something workable, but most end up unused "experiments" with lots of rationalization. Most reviews are biased, understandably, because of the money and time the buyer has invested. If one of these shops were actually doing consistent decent work, it wouldn't continue to be undiscovered. While it's possible that you could get a decent instrument, the short comings aren't typically the hardware and fret job. It's usually incorrect fret location, and eventual warping of the woods. Hopefully you get lucky, but I've avoided these after having never seen a decent one in person. 

On another note, I do have to say I think it's wrong to be supporting the theft of a strandberg design. I get that you don't want to pay for an actual strandberg, but there's nothing saying you're entitled to be able to. I'd love a Ritter, but I'm not going to order a copy because I respect that he would like to keep all Ritter looking instruments of quality he can control.

I'm not wanting to get into a lay person debate about IP and patent law, or the companies who make Fender/Gibson clones. I'm just saying, IMO, supporting an industry that is counterfeiting/copying what is, to me, an obvious ripoff of someone else's design is wrong. Whether one can afford the real deal, and whether others do it, or others have done it, doesn't make it right.


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## KnightBrolaire (Sep 17, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Eh, I think you're looking at a selected group of reviews. I have yet to see a preponderance of positive reviews of these Chinese copies. Periodically, people say they're going to get one and review for all of us to see. Every once in a while we'll see something workable, but most end up unused "experiments" with lots of rationalization. Most reviews are biased, understandably, because of the money and time the buyer has invested. If one of these shops were actually doing consistent decent work, it wouldn't continue to be undiscovered. While it's possible that you could get a decent instrument, the short comings aren't typically the hardware and fret job. It's usually incorrect fret location, and eventual warping of the woods. Hopefully you get lucky, but I've avoided these after having never seen a decent one in person.
> 
> On another note, I do have to say I think it's wrong to be supporting the theft of a strandberg design. I get that you don't want to pay for an actual strandberg, but there's nothing saying you're entitled to be able to. I'd love a Ritter, but I'm not going to order a copy because I respect that he would like to keep all Ritter looking instruments of quality he can control.
> 
> I'm not wanting to get into a lay person debate about IP and patent law, or the companies who make Fender/Gibson clones. I'm just saying, IMO, supporting an industry that is counterfeiting/copying what is, to me, an obvious ripoff of someone else's design is wrong. Whether one can afford the real deal, and whether others do it, or others have done it, doesn't make it right.


generally speaking, body shape isn't protected unless the company decides to protect it. Strandberg was licensing his body shapes and there's a fair number of legit luthiers who have built "copies" like Roehrs, Rusti, Xen, OXC, etc.


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## diagrammatiks (Sep 17, 2017)

Again anyone that mistakes this for a strandberg under any applicable standards is blind.

still don't understand why agiles are ok but these get people in a huff. 

there's a number of sellers that are willing to actually put the strandberg logo on the guitar. that's illegal. there's a number of sellers that are clearly selling fake emgs in these. that's also illegal. but the body with no logo. that's nothing.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> Again anyone that mistakes this for a strandberg under any applicable standards is blind.
> 
> still don't understand why agiles are ok but these get people in a huff.
> 
> there's a number of sellers that are willing to actually put the strandberg logo on the guitar. that's illegal. there's a number of sellers that are clearly selling fake emgs in these. that's also illegal. but the body with no logo. that's nothing.



I think Agile gets a pass because of their very good return policy, they are clearly trying to get you a good instrument on a budget, whereas as you go more and more towards a copycat builder it becomes something that looks like a guitar, but is not in fact a serviceable instrument, like cant get proper intonation, truss rod that doesn't work. ect.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 18, 2017)

That and Ola has suspended the licensing of his design. I do believe that may constitute a problem which is why larger more reputable non-authorized builders no longer build them. 

I may be wrong about that but I believe that to be the case. 


diagrammatiks said:


> Again anyone that mistakes this for a strandberg under any applicable standards is blind.
> 
> still don't understand why agiles are ok but these get people in a huff.
> 
> there's a number of sellers that are willing to actually put the strandberg logo on the guitar. that's illegal. there's a number of sellers that are clearly selling fake emgs in these. that's also illegal. but the body with no logo. that's nothing.


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## lewis (Sep 18, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Eh, I think you're looking at a selected group of reviews. I have yet to see a preponderance of positive reviews of these Chinese copies. Periodically, people say they're going to get one and review for all of us to see. Every once in a while we'll see something workable, but most end up unused "experiments" with lots of rationalization. Most reviews are biased, understandably, because of the money and time the buyer has invested. If one of these shops were actually doing consistent decent work, it wouldn't continue to be undiscovered. While it's possible that you could get a decent instrument, the short comings aren't typically the hardware and fret job. It's usually incorrect fret location, and eventual warping of the woods. Hopefully you get lucky, but I've avoided these after having never seen a decent one in person.
> 
> On another note, I do have to say I think it's wrong to be supporting the theft of a strandberg design. I get that you don't want to pay for an actual strandberg, but there's nothing saying you're entitled to be able to. I'd love a Ritter, but I'm not going to order a copy because I respect that he would like to keep all Ritter looking instruments of quality he can control.
> 
> I'm not wanting to get into a lay person debate about IP and patent law, or the companies who make Fender/Gibson clones. I'm just saying, IMO, supporting an industry that is counterfeiting/copying what is, to me, an obvious ripoff of someone else's design is wrong. Whether one can afford the real deal, and whether others do it, or others have done it, doesn't make it right.



I dont mean reviews of chinese guitars in general littering forums online. Im talking about reviews specifically from people who bought these shape guitars, from this specific company, left on their specific aliexpress page under each specific listing.

and also, i clearly say in my op that i want to try this body shape first with a cheaper purchase to see if its for me, i.e before deciding on a real strandberg. No way i want to order a $2000 guitar only for it to arrive and me dislike the body shape.

as said since, people are so guilty of picking and choosing when this "?Chinese copy bashing" applies.
You can find endless threads on endless forums of people saying along the lines of "Oh nice, these old chinese copies of fender strats/LP are awesome". Yet the second its a modern guitar design being cloned and re released its almost sacrilege. 

even my harley benton (from thomann) 8 string, blatantly rips off the legator in design.

Legator





Harley benton






Companies have been doing this from day dot. There is nothing illegal about me parting with my cash for this guitar so Im certainly not going to feel like im doing some immoral action. Its not an injustice that Grote guitars are taking cash for orders. No more than any company taking money for any super strat shape that evolved from the Fender Strat shape.

Either way if this ends up with me loving the body shape, and putting down a deposit on a real strandberg, I highly doubt Strandberg would be bothered I opted for a cheap knock off first before deciding.


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## lewis (Sep 18, 2017)

for anyone interested, this is just a few of the other finishes the builder offers and you can also get any variant of anything you want -


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## purpledc (Sep 18, 2017)

I hope you have better luck than i did. I bought a guitar direct from china once. It was my last time. The people that sold it to me were very nice too. They were even really nice when they offered me a $20 discount on a $500 build since they completely fucked it up and didnt do half the shit they said they would and what they did make wasnt playable. They were even nice when i insisted over three weeks they argued with me about returning it. My only worry about your build is it looks like they used flat sawn maple for the neck. I am not a fan of flat sawn single piece necks. Im definitely a bargain shopper. But i have seen way too many failed ngd posts including my own to give the thumbs up. But i do hope you beat the odds.


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## purpledc (Sep 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> I have asked him to move the top horn strap button to the back of the horn rather than the top of the horn and he has agreed to do that for me.
> 
> They wiggle loose to easily in my experiences when in the top of the horn.



In that case i would be very very specific and make sure they arent just going to take a stock guitar that has all ready had its strap buttons secured and they simply drill a second hole and leave the original empty. As for it being a rip off, i dont care about that personally. Hell not many people were whining about when skeverson was making near one for one blackmachine rip offs. It seems rip offs are only taboo to some if they are made in asia. Which really highlights that their beef had nothing to do with IP theft. But i wouldnt kid yourself into thinking that strandberg doesnt care. I have never met a guitar builder who isnt miffed when inferior copies of their products are made. Even though in 90% of all cases the clone customer is not or will never be a customer of theirs so it makes no difference to their pocket book if they buy a rip off or a squire.


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## lewis (Sep 18, 2017)

purpledc said:


> I hope you have better luck than i did. I bought a guitar direct from china once. It was my last time. The people that sold it to me were very nice too. They were even really nice when they offered me a $20 discount on a $500 build since they completely fucked it up and didnt do half the shit they said they would and what they did make wasnt playable. They were even nice when i insisted over three weeks they argued with me about returning it. My only worry about your build is it looks like they used flat sawn maple for the neck. I am not a fan of flat sawn single piece necks. Im definitely a bargain shopper. But i have seen way too many failed ngd posts including my own to give the thumbs up. But i do hope you beat the odds.





purpledc said:


> In that case i would be very very specific and make sure they arent just going to take a stock guitar that has all ready had its strap buttons secured and they simply drill a second hole and leave the original empty. As for it being a rip off, i dont care about that personally. Hell not many people were whining about when skeverson was making near one for one blackmachine rip offs. It seems rip offs are only taboo to some if they are made in asia. Which really highlights that their beef had nothing to do with IP theft. But i wouldnt kid yourself into thinking that strandberg doesnt care. I have never met a guitar builder who isnt miffed when inferior copies of their products are made. Even though in 90% of all cases the clone customer is not or will never be a customer of theirs so it makes no difference to their pocket book if they buy a rip off or a squire.



Thanks man!. It seems, based on the taboo that is in place, at least this order of mine will help people know either way if there is a slight chance to get something good out of China, or basically no hope in hell. I dont mind helping in that way, even if the latter is at my expense.

Im sure the strap button relocation request will be ok because as it stands no guitar exists (at least according to him). He is building to my specs from scratch with a time scale of 5-6 weeks for the build. 
So hopefully, he will only drill the hole at the back from the off. I suppose its a good point though and I should message him about it to make 100% sure.

Ive paid extra for the fretboard to be Ebony because A) its my favourite fretboard wood and B) to avoid the CITES issues and customs.
Ive asked for the dot inlays to be split so upto the 12th fret they are on the low string side, then 12 onwards the dots are on the high string side of the board and obviously the strap button being behind the horn to avoid long term screw wiggles.

Lets wait and see though. Could be utter garbage haha. The reviews on the site and pictures of these finished guitars in customers bedrooms etc at least make them LOOK exactly like the stock pictures above. So know Aesthetically they come out exact. Its just whether they play like a bag of ass thats the issue.


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## Hollowway (Sep 18, 2017)

Yeah, I don’t think most people in the market for a strandberg are going to mistake this for a strandberg. The issue is that it’s the strandberg design that is what the buyers seek. OP specifically said he’s buying this because it has the same body shape as a strandberg. 
The Legator design isn’t a good comparison, because that is not an original design by those guys - it’s an OEM situation, and the OEM is allowed to manufacture for other brands. Not that it matters, because it doesn’t make it ok just because others are doing it. 
And yes, Ola did license his design previously, but decided to no longer do that. It’s not feasible for him to sue an overseas company every time this pops up. But my point is, as artists, do we have such little value for art that we support it’s theft by others? Would we be ok if others did it to us? 
Obviously, we all come down on different points on the spectrum. I always figured that, as artists, we were closer to living by the same code than not, when it comes to use of others art without permission. 
Lastly, OP, you have the option of buying an actual strandberg from GC, or any other regular store, trying it, and returning it if you don’t like it. It would give you a much better idea of whether you actually like the guitar.


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## farren (Sep 18, 2017)

Hollowway, I'm not trying to speak for lewis' economic situation (which I know nothing about), but consider it may be a factor. I consider supporting IP theft by buying a much less expensive guitar that, at the very least, superficially resembles a design protected in some jurisdictions is about as unethical as pirating a couple movies for your kids to watch when you're just barely managing to feed and school them. That is to say, quite acceptable in my book. An artist needs his tools, and without getting into the IP debate, this isn't exactly a zero sum game like robbing your neighbor's tool shed.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 19, 2017)

Just a thought... If the economic situation is one such that a Strandberg is not feasible it makes the notion of trying to see if you like it seem somewhat bogus. We'd probably be better off not putting words in OPs mouth.


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## downburst82 (Sep 19, 2017)

Thats funny ive been watching these for a few months (and ive had this finish specifically in my cart for several weeks)...ive been super close to pulling the trigger a few times but have held off.

I will probably wait and see how yours turns out now before I order.


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## ElRay (Sep 19, 2017)

I keep checking this thread because I'm curious if the bridge is any good. I haven't found a review that says much beyond the allen wrench is needed. In photos, it looks like you can remove the saddles and tuner mechanism, make a custom base plate and use them in a multi-scaled headless.


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I don’t think most people in the market for a strandberg are going to mistake this for a strandberg. The issue is that it’s the strandberg design that is what the buyers seek. OP specifically said he’s buying this because it has the same body shape as a strandberg.
> The Legator design isn’t a good comparison, because that is not an original design by those guys - it’s an OEM situation, and the OEM is allowed to manufacture for other brands. Not that it matters, because it doesn’t make it ok just because others are doing it.
> And yes, Ola did license his design previously, but decided to no longer do that. It’s not feasible for him to sue an overseas company every time this pops up. But my point is, as artists, do we have such little value for art that we support it’s theft by others? Would we be ok if others did it to us?
> Obviously, we all come down on different points on the spectrum. I always figured that, as artists, we were closer to living by the same code than not, when it comes to use of others art without permission.
> Lastly, *OP, you have the option of buying an actual strandberg from GC, or any other regular store, trying it, and returning it if you don’t like it*. It would give you a much better idea of whether you actually like the guitar.



That only works if me or anyone has the $$$ ready to go and buy one right now without needing to worry about something cropping up (life) that the money suddenly needs to go on. Im debt free but you just never know.

Maybe you are different, but if I wanted high valued items I have to save for them, hard, over a period of time. It took me near a year just to have the money for a brand new Kemper. That consisted of selling alot of gear to fund it too.
I can afford a couple of hundred on this cheap ass Chinese guitar just to see and if the body shape is cool for me and my style, then I will start the process of saving money for a proper Boden or whatever.
cost of living in the UK offset against the shockingly low minimum wage, means every payday most of your earnings are gone on rent/bills, before you even have a chance to find something to buy. Let alone just materialising thousands of $$$ on an whim to buy a Strandberg.

I have a pregnant partner and our 15 month old daughter to prioritise. We need a new larger family car for a start. Our home was a baron wasteland of a shell when we moved in.


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 19, 2017)

If you lack the money to do it, then the logical conclusion is that you just don't get to have it. Getting a chinese copy isn't going to give you any clue how the guitar will feel. The body shape isn't even what might make this guitar unenjoyable. I'd be way more concerned about the neck.

In dum dums terms, I want a ferarri but I can't afford one. This means I don't get one. I could buy a cheap copy of one, but it'd be foolish to ever think that it'd give me any clue what a real one drives/feels like.

I do hope for the best, but I never have high hopes for these guitars. I'm really curious about this one for the fact that the color looks great, and I hope that's how it shows up.


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> If you lack the money to do it, then the logical conclusion is that you just don't get to have it. Getting a chinese copy isn't going to give you any clue how the guitar will feel. The body shape isn't even what might make this guitar unenjoyable. I'd be way more concerned about the neck.
> 
> In dum dums terms, I want a ferarri but I can't afford one. This means I don't get one. I could buy a cheap copy of one, but it'd be foolish to ever think that it'd give me any clue what a real one drives/feels like.
> 
> I do hope for the best, but I never have high hopes for these guitars. I'm really curious about this one for the fact that the color looks great, and I hope that's how it shows up.


the thing is, everyone's opinion on the best way to live their lives and spend their OWN money, is entirely subjective.

I dont agree with your point, because just because you cant afford it right in this very second, doesnt mean you cannot simply save well for 6 months to afford it, but hey who cares If I dont agree with you right?.

back on topic. Yeah me too mate. He told me it will likely be finished inside 30 days but we shall see.
I absolutely hate waiting and Im terribly impatient so it will be a test for me to see it out.


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 19, 2017)

Oh no, you can save... Saving to buy the actual product makes sense. Buying a cheap copy won't however fill the role of "test driving" the real thing. The neck is a huge deal, and you won't be getting that experience with the chinese copy. It's a real possibility that you'll love the chinese copy but hate the real thing or vice versa (which you might never know if you write it off due to your experiences with the copy.)

30 days isn't bad. Hopefully shipping goes smoothly. Customs can be a bitch with guitars. I'm right there with you with impatience. I ordered a Kiesel a while back and it was a nightmare for me. And Kiesel is actually pretty damn quick. lol


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Oh no, you can save... Saving to buy the actual product makes sense. Buying a cheap copy won't however fill the role of "test driving" the real thing. The neck is a huge deal, and you won't be getting that experience with the chinese copy. It's a real possibility that you'll love the chinese copy but hate the real thing or vice versa (which you might never know if you write it off due to your experiences with the copy.)
> 
> 30 days isn't bad. *Hopefully shipping goes smoothly. Customs can be a bitch with guitars*. I'm right there with you with impatience. I ordered a Kiesel a while back and it was a nightmare for me. And Kiesel is actually pretty damn quick. lol



Yeah thats the part Im not looking forward to.

Ooh nice! Kiesel.! Would love one.
Got any pics?


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 19, 2017)

This thread is too good. Just OP contradicting his previous posts over and over to try and point out how everyone else is wrong.

Just stick to your people decide how they spend their own money point. Its the only one thats valid. 

Even if its trash it should look dope hanging on a wall. Again good luck.


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

Dineley said:


> This thread is too good. Just OP contradicting his previous posts over and over to try and point out how everyone else is wrong.
> 
> Just stick to your people decide how they spend their own money point. Its the only one thats valid.
> 
> Even if its trash it should look dope hanging on a wall. Again good luck.


how exactly have i contradicted myself exactly? deary me


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

and where have i said anyone is wrong? nothing in here has been about right or wrong?


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## exo (Sep 19, 2017)

Not exactly sure that myself, but it's International Talk Like a Pirate Day, and I'm a little rum-muddled in celebration.

I hope you get a decent player out of he deal, man. The cosmetics are on point, and much like yourself, a *strandberg will involve a couple years worth of saving. 

I've got a BC Rich Warlock that I bought because it played decently and looked AWESOME. After I got it home, I made the connection about the cutouts and the way it naturally falls into "classical" position on my leg seated.....and I haven't looked back. If I could afford one that has this awesome Warlock body and cosmetics along with a neck profile and compound radius like my '94 Jackson MIJ Soloist but with the same short 24 5/8 scale my Warlock has and the ebony board on my Mockingbird ST, it'd be absolute HEAVEN. Maybe sometime next decade......

Nothing wrong with using the tools at you disposal to to investigate similar things about the "Strandberg-esque" body style you're getting, and I'm reasonably sure you've been around enough to understand what you might be getting in to......


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> Not exactly sure that myself, but it's International Talk Like a Pirate Day, and I'm a little rum-muddled in celebration.
> 
> I hope you get a decent player out of he deal, man. The cosmetics are on point, and much like yourself, a *strandberg will involve a couple years worth of saving.
> 
> ...


Funnily enough I have a 7 string Warlock myself hah

The Lucky 7 model. Classic position is fantastic on it.

And thanks man!. Exactly right too. I know exactly what Im getting into. I suspect their to be issues. At least if there isnt, Im then pleasantly surprised haha. So far so good though.


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## exo (Sep 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> Funnily enough I have a 7 string Warlock myself hah
> 
> The Lucky 7 model. Classic position is fantastic on it.
> 
> And thanks man!. Exactly right too. I know exactly what Im getting into. I suspect their to be issues. At least if there isnt, Im then pleasantly surprised haha. So far so good though.



How "decent" is that 7? Wish they'd made one that looks like the 6 string "Warlock Plus" Black Vapor finish models......


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> How "decent" is that 7? Wish they'd made one that looks like the 6 string "Warlock Plus" Black Vapor finish models......


very decent.
Has a satin neck for faster playing. No inlays. Mahogany everything, rosewood fretboard. Comes stock with duncan designed active pickups which sound sweet. It records well and sounds pretty huge when double tracked.

Plays well. Its for sale because I have too many guitars. Not because its no good haha.


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## exo (Sep 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> very decent.
> Has a satin neck for faster playing. No inlays. Mahogany everything, rosewood fretboard. Comes stock with duncan designed active pickups which sound sweet. It records well and sounds pretty huge when double tracked.
> 
> Plays well. Its for sale because I have too many guitars. Not because its no good haha.



The wife would KILL ME, man...


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 19, 2017)

sorry just seems the save vs spend vs try and return vs spend a little now ect, seemed to be going in circles. I hope you get a kick ass guitar in all seriousness though.


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

exo said:


> The wife would KILL ME, man...


go on do it!...


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## lewis (Sep 19, 2017)

Dineley said:


> sorry just seems the save vs spend vs try and return vs spend a little now ect, seemed to be going in circles. *I hope you get a kick ass guitar in all seriousness though*.


me too dude, me too!


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## lewis (Sep 25, 2017)

small update:
The guitar being built has officially begun they have informed me.
So its on course for the time they told me. Which was 5 odd weeks from start to finish.


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## Hollowway (Sep 26, 2017)

OP, why did you not just order an actual Boden from one of the stores that carry them, try it out, and then return it once you have a feel for whether you will like it? That’s really the best way to get an idea, and you don’t have to spend a few hundred on the “test.” It’s a way better use of your hard earned cash. And it doesn’t support Chinese copies.


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> OP, why did you not just order an actual Boden from one of the stores that carry them, try it out, and then return it once you have a feel for whether you will like it? That’s really the best way to get an idea, and you don’t have to spend a few hundred on the “test.” It’s a way better use of your hard earned cash. And it doesn’t support Chinese copies.


Ive already explained this earlier in here.
Im the main bread winner for my family. My missus is pregnant and working part time and our family home was a complete rundown shell when we moved in. All of that mixed with the cost of living means i cant just pull £1500 out of my ass. I have to save for ages. It took me like a year or something to afford a kemper.

This is all i can afford right now and even had to borrow money from myself to pay for it. People in this forum in different counteries literally talk like they are A list celebs.
Trying living in the UK for a year and see how that affects your finances.


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## iamaom (Sep 26, 2017)

lewis said:


> Trying living in the UK for a year and see how that affects your finances.


Look at the bright side, at least when you get cancer you won't have to file for bankruptcy just to get basic treatment.


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

iamaom said:


> Look at the bright side, at least when you get cancer you won't have to file for bankruptcy just to get basic treatment.


yeah and equally try even affording a place to live in the UK if you are made jobless.
Its completely relative.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 26, 2017)

lewis said:


> yeah and equally try even affording a place to live in the UK if you are made jobless.
> Its completely relative.



Pretty tough to afford to live anywhere when jobless. I think that's one of those universal truths. 

I think only point people were trying to make is if you had been able to "buy" a boden from a store see how you like it and then return it once experiment was complete, you are out zero money. if you like it you start saving, if you don't like it target something else, however this way if you don't like it you are out the cost of the guitar no matter what.

Obviously even to temporarily purchase it is tough to put down all the cash money up front, and I'm guessing Europe doesn't have the same ridiculous financing options that are available in the US.


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

Dineley said:


> Pretty tough to afford to live anywhere when jobless. I think that's one of those universal truths.
> 
> I think only point people were trying to make is if you had been able to "buy" a boden from a store see how you like it and then return it once experiment was complete, you are out zero money. if you like it you start saving, if you don't like it target something else, *however this way if you don't like it you are out the cost of the guitar no matter what*.
> 
> Obviously even to temporarily purchase it is tough to put down all the cash money up front, and I'm guessing Europe doesn't have the same ridiculous financing options that are available in the US.



Not really because I would easily be able to sell it on in my area (unless it arrives as a complete pile of BS as then yeah fine I would be out £300 - but it would at least look good hanging on the wall haha)

end of the day, i feel like I dont have to answer to anyone regarding my choices. Ive explained my personal situation and my personal viewpoint on my own situation and choices regards to money. It makes sense to me, but wont to others. No point keep going over it tbh.


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## SeanSan (Sep 26, 2017)

I'm just looking forward to see how the build is gonna turn out. Hopefully you'll get a good instrument and a new and great instrument (Strandberg or not) is always a plus.


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

SeanSan said:


> I'm just looking forward to see how the build is gonna turn out. Hopefully you'll get a good instrument and a new and great instrument (Strandberg or not) is always a plus.


this is basically my viewpoint haha. At this point its becoming morbid curiosity


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## gunch (Sep 26, 2017)

iamaom said:


> Look at the bright side, at least when you get cancer you won't have to file for bankruptcy just to get basic treatment.



While the UK has the NHS (Which some people don't even bother with with unless they're dying) everything else about it is a hellhole if you're working class.
Source: my bf is a Asda wage slave in Chorley. It's even worse if you find yourself in need of government assistance


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

silverabyss said:


> While the UK has the NHS (Which some people don't even bother with with unless they're dying) everything else about it is a hellhole if you're working class.
> Source: my bf is a Asda wage slave in Chorley. It's even worse if you find yourself in need of government assistance


absolutely this!!! /\

I think sometimes people in the USA dont appreciate the positives they have and instead focus on the negatives (which imo is less than the negatives in the UK)

City living in the UK is an abomination. Minimum wage, high high rent prices, high high council tax prices, parking permits just to have the right to park outside your own house for about a 3 mile radius of the city centres...meaning basically everyone who drives is ripped off, certain roads are toll roads you have to pay extra just to drive through to stop "congestion", your car insurance for anyone under the age of 25 is a joke. (my friend has had no accidents whatsoever and yet is still paying £100 a month just for car insurance - on a ford focus family car?!?!? hardly sporty)

when you sit and break down what minimum wage pays for say 60 hours a week, then factor in everything I just mentioned and the lack of government help (our system is geared up to reward lazy twats rather than give people who do work, an incentive or reward).
You can work seriously seriously hard, and still only just have your head floating above water. 
Whether you are a worker, or jobless, in the UK, it doestn really matter, you are still poor basically because of how expensive everything is.

And all Americans can say is "well health insurance"?


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## iamaom (Sep 26, 2017)

lewis said:


> And all Americans can say is "well health insurance"?


A lot of what you posted applies very much to the US too, all car insurance for young people (especially males) is sky high. The US is so insanely huge it really depends on where you live and how rich your parents are that dictates how hard you have it. I know it's easy to suffer from grass is greener syndrome, but the average american isn't living the "american dream", we just have a much larger population and so we have a lot more rich people that use the internet. I live in Texas and the minimum wage is less than that of the UK ($10/£7.50 vs $7.25/£5.40), so even though cost of living is cheaper the pay is so low a minimum wage worker is in very much the same situation someone in the UK would be in. A lot of US wealth is also very inflated and shaky, even upper-middle class americans are in huge debt. This is a country where someone $100k in debt can live in a two story house and someone with no debt is homeless.

A lot of the posters in this board aren't buying $3k+ instruments left and right because they're american, they just have different financial proprieties and/or wealthy. This is a guitar enthusiast board with a taste for extreme and uncommon instruments/music, so naturally those that can afford these type instruments will skew to those with large disposable income. I probably make less money than most people on this board (I work a retail job at a chain store), but I don't have a kid, all my clothes are from walmart, and I have no hobbies outside of music and what I can accomplish on my 6 year old computer. To an outsider they'd probably think I was rich for having some of the gear that I have, but in reality I just save for a while and live a bit minimalist.


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## farren (Sep 26, 2017)

lewis said:


> And all Americans can say is "well health insurance"?



I was with you until you said that... Don't minimize the significance of the right to healthcare until you live somewhere which doesn't recognize it. For many Americans, sickness equates to long-term financial ruin, denial of a life-saving operation until you're too sick for it to make any difference, or both.


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

farren said:


> I was with you until you said that... Don't minimize the significance of the right to healthcare until you live somewhere which doesn't recognize it. For many Americans, sickness equates to long-term financial ruin, denial of a life-saving operation until you're too sick for it to make any difference, or both.


im not minimising it. The point im making is, every single time this debate kicks off the healthcare argument is all thats ever mentioned from anyone living in America.
Like, there must be more to it either way than just that.
It gets boring hearing that same argument over and over to try and prove the UK is better somehow just because of this 1 single element.

is what I meant.


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## lewis (Sep 26, 2017)

anyway we have gone completely off topic.
These UK vs USA standard of living debates are best saved for another thread in the Off Topic section.

Its a good idea. I will happily contribute to debates in a thread specifically for said debates.


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## Shoeless_jose (Sep 26, 2017)

No one's saying UK is better because of health insurance, just saying as much as it sucks being on minimum wage in UK with a kid on the way, having health insurance makes it less shitty than being on minimum wage in Cleveland Chicago or NYC or something similar.

Basically minimum wage sucks for all, wealth inequality is bullshit.... free guitars for all!!!


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## getowned7474 (Sep 26, 2017)

lewis said:


> City living in the UK is an abomination. Minimum wage, high high rent prices, high high council tax prices, parking permits just to have the right to park outside your own house for about a 3 mile radius of the city centres...meaning basically everyone who drives is ripped off, certain roads are toll roads you have to pay extra just to drive through to stop "congestion", your car insurance for anyone under the age of 25 is a joke. (my friend has had no accidents whatsoever and yet is still paying £100 a month just for car insurance - on a ford focus family car?!?!? hardly sporty)



Not to say that car insurance isn't a ripoff in the UK but my insurance is over $300 a month here in the US. Never been in a crash never had any insurance claims etc. It''s all because of my age.


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## Hollowway (Sep 27, 2017)

lewis said:


> Ive already explained this earlier in here.
> Im the main bread winner for my family. My missus is pregnant and working part time and our family home was a complete rundown shell when we moved in. All of that mixed with the cost of living means i cant just pull £1500 out of my ass. I have to save for ages. It took me like a year or something to afford a kemper.
> 
> This is all i can afford right now and even had to borrow money from myself to pay for it. People in this forum in different counteries literally talk like they are A list celebs.
> Trying living in the UK for a year and see how that affects your finances.


Calm down, tiger, I’m actually coming up with a cheaper solution for you. If money is tight, you can literally buy a strandberg, try it, see if you like it or not, and return it. If you DO like it, save up and buy it for keeps. If you do not like it, move on to something else. My point is, if you drop $300 or so on this, and decide you want a strandy, you’re now in the hole $300. The fact that strandbergs can be bought at regular retailers - and returned - makes it way easier to try before you buy.


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## laxu (Sep 27, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Calm down, tiger, I’m actually coming up with a cheaper solution for you. If money is tight, you can literally buy a strandberg, try it, see if you like it or not, and return it. If you DO like it, save up and buy it for keeps. If you do not like it, move on to something else. My point is, if you drop $300 or so on this, and decide you want a strandy, you’re now in the hole $300. The fact that strandbergs can be bought at regular retailers - and returned - makes it way easier to try before you buy.



At the same time I don't really advocate buying and returning because you can't truly afford the guitar. That's just abusing a good system. Buying and returning because you didn't like what you got is fine IMO.

Otherwise I agree with you, OP will most likely be in a hole several hundred and stuck with a guitar that might not be great quality. Let's hope we are wrong.


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## lewis (Sep 27, 2017)

laxu said:


> At the same time I don't really advocate buying and returning because you can't truly afford the guitar. That's just abusing a good system. Buying and returning because you didn't like what you got is fine IMO.
> 
> Otherwise I agree with you, OP will most likely be in a hole several hundred and stuck with a guitar that might not be great quality. Let's hope we are wrong.


ive since sold a guitar (for profit over what I bought it for I might add) that I didnt really have a purpose for, to fund this build so its not a big deal


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## lewis (Oct 16, 2017)

Massive update!!:

The guitar has been officially built as of yesterday!. Im not going to lie, it certainly LOOKS amazing and also, how decent does the hardcase look too?. Seems like that would work great with a real strandberg aswell.
Here are the pictures of my actual build. (ive asked for a few more but it seems like it is actually mine because I asked for Ebony as a paid extra (thank god no CITES issues to deal with) - which it has you can tell, I asked for offset dots - which it has, and I asked for them to relocate the strap button to behind the horn rather than ontop of the horn - which it has)

Enjoy


















That Ebony though /\  <3





/\ my requested relocated strap button

















Ive asked for a shot going down the neck too. 
But there we are. Custom options from this builder SEEM to work out fine. The ebony looks great (paid $25 extra for that), the hard case looks great (paid I think $80 extra for that), the offset dots are nice (those were a free option) as was the relocated strap button which also looks good.

Working with this guy SO FAR has been a great experience so thats at least 2 ticks so far for them. The proof is in the pudding though so lets wait and see when it arrives how it plays etc. Ive asked him about truss rod adjustment. Im assuming its at the very end under the cap/pull out drawer thing? lol

If by some miracle this guitar plays as good as it looks, I honestly think I will recommend these to my guitarist friends in the same boat. I.e want to try something like this first without having to spend thousands. Shame the company dont offer fan fret currently but thats a minor gripe for me really.


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## khm (Oct 16, 2017)

Certainly looks pretty decent old chap, hope it plays as well as it looks for you.


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## lewis (Oct 16, 2017)

khm said:


> Certainly looks pretty decent old chap, hope it plays as well as it looks for you.


thanks dude. Appreciate it.
Me too.
It seems I could have asked about the neck heel and probably got the back of the neck finished in that transparent purple too but ah well.
I will bare that in mine IF i ever consider these again.


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## lewis (Oct 16, 2017)

thinking of putting these in right away - 





That brushed chrome would look amazing against that pink/purple burst top


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## exo (Oct 16, 2017)

I REALLY hope this needs little more than a proper setup once it gets in your hands, man. It's absolutely gorgeous.......


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## lewis (Oct 16, 2017)

exo said:


> I REALLY hope this needs little more than a proper setup once it gets in your hands, man. It's absolutely gorgeous.......


I pray you are right haha. It really will be a lovely surprise haha.

Going to be hopefully tuning this to Drop G# open tuning
G#,D#,G#,C#,G#,C#

lets hope that unusual bridge plays ball for lower tunings.


----------



## ElRay (Oct 16, 2017)

Do you have a shipping ETA?


----------



## lewis (Oct 16, 2017)

ElRay said:


> Do you have a shipping ETA?


I dont have my shipping/tracking info yet however a good friend of mine in Scotland ordered a custom built guitar from China recently and it took 2 weeks to reach in him and I think he said there was a 20% custom import tax.

So ive factored that in on this build and already have it ready to pay. I will update in here as soon as I get tracking etc.

I imagine it will be sent in the next few days and at that point I will get all my info. With how efficient this company have been so far, it may even go within the next 24 hours.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 16, 2017)

Now, what you should have done was get the train to London and try some of the Strandbergs at Guitar Guitar. Though, trains in the UK are some of the most expensive in the world. Still, less than a Chinese knock off. Or you could get the bus. Also, if the point of this purchase is to test out the body shape, why are you sinking another £200 into it in pickups? You're halfway to a Boden Classic at that rate.

Seems more like you're trying to justify your purchase than any actual forethought, but by all means prove me wrong by enjoying this shape and then saving up for and purchasing a real Boden.

For what it's worth, giving birth in a hospital in America is on average going to be a lot more expensive than even my Strandberg. So unless you're considering a home birth, consider that before decrying the NHS and cost of living in the UK.


----------



## lewis (Oct 17, 2017)

StevenC said:


> Now, what you should have done was get the train to London and try some of the Strandbergs at Guitar Guitar. Though, trains in the UK are some of the most expensive in the world. Still, less than a Chinese knock off. Or you could get the bus. Also, if the point of this purchase is to test out the body shape, why are you sinking another £200 into it in pickups? You're halfway to a Boden Classic at that rate.
> 
> Seems more like you're trying to justify your purchase than any actual forethought, but by all means prove me wrong by enjoying this shape and then saving up for and purchasing a real Boden.
> 
> For what it's worth, giving birth in a hospital in America is on average going to be a lot more expensive than even my Strandberg. So unless you're considering a home birth, consider that before decrying the NHS and cost of living in the UK.



ive already said earlier in here im done debating this. People like you think Im nuts and I do not.
End of that discussion. Lets keep it now relevant to JUST the guitar and its quality.
Also, not that its any of your business but yes we are doing a home birth.

Plus, we have lidl bag tube bombers so no thanks to going anywhere near London anytime soon. Thanks but no thanks.

p.s everyone who bought one is saying the pickups are garbage, so whats the point in buying any guitar be it $300, $50 or $2000000, if you cant use it because the pickups are trash?.

If I spent thousands on a Kiesel and didnt like the Lithiums, I would still be getting pickup swaps.
I bought a trashed old 1989 yamaha RGX110. The stock pickup was garbage and I spent abit restoring it including a new pickup.
And guess what?... I get complimented on it all the damn time.

P.s

Total cost of headless build + shipping + import tax + Fitted Hard case = £355
buying a set of *used* EMGs off Ebay = £60

total £415

Strandberg classic = £1,195.88

half this would be = £597.94


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Oct 17, 2017)

All I'm hoping is that it hasn't been hyped up so much that if it does come in in less than ideal condition you don't try to glaze over it. Not to imply you're a liar or anything by nature, but I know if I spent pages of a thread defending something just to have it come in with issues, I'd be hesitant to admit it.

All I ask is that you be honest. If it's got rough spots, or even issues you'd consider acceptable for the price, then share them. I am legitimately curious to see this thing. Mostly because purple guitars are life.


----------



## lewis (Oct 17, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> All I'm hoping is that it hasn't been hyped up so much that if it does come in in less than ideal condition you don't try to glaze over it. Not to imply you're a liar or anything by nature, but I know if I spent pages of a thread defending something just to have it come in with issues, I'd be hesitant to admit it.
> 
> All I ask is that you be honest. If it's got rough spots, or even issues you'd consider acceptable for the price, then share them. I am legitimately curious to see this thing. Mostly because purple guitars are life.


Oh i honestly intend to be.

I will take pure close up shots of anything thats an issue.
Including the action height upon delivery etc.

Was tempted to do a proper Review Video too discussing my experiences and said issues with it if any exist.

I think the thing Im more defending is how i opted to spend my own money keeps being questioned and thats whats annoying. But apparently people care about some complete strangers finances? haha

For anyone interested, this is from the exact same company -



EDIT: Regards to his comments on tuning. At the time of the review he didnt realise the little stick out part of the bridge was a pull out Z shaped Hex key designed for the tuning etc so thats no an issue.


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Oct 17, 2017)

lewis said:


> Plus, we have lidl bag tube bombers so no thanks to going anywhere near London anytime soon. Thanks but no thanks.



The worst year in recorded history for terrorism related deaths in the UK, was 1988, when the Lockerby bomber killed 270 people, and 372 people died in terrorist incidents in total.

Nearly twice as many people die EVERY YEAR from *falling down flights of stairs*.

Avoiding London because you might be involved in a terrorist incident is a spectacularly fearful, illogical, and silly reason for avoiding the capital.

You should be avoiding the capital because it's a miserable, shitty place in general.


----------



## narad (Oct 17, 2017)

Support an industry that profits by ripping off original designs and producing them in terrible conditions, or 50% chance you get blown up trying to get into London to try out the real deal. Life in 2017 is real f*cking hard, guys.


----------



## lewis (Oct 17, 2017)

haha people are so salty in here.

Funny because there are literally loads of guitar builders ripping of this strandberg shape. Just because this one happens to be from "China" all fucking hell breaks loose.

It does get to a point where just normal conversation in this Forum is non existent. Its just all mud slinging and over the top BS.

like genuinely, if you think I was an idiot and have already said so and have no interest in the outcome of this build, then literally stay out of the thread. 
Im going to start reporting people because people are coming in here just to give me stick.


----------



## lewis (Oct 17, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> The worst year in recorded history for terrorism related deaths in the UK, was 1988, when the Lockerby bomber killed 270 people, and 372 people died in terrorist incidents in total.
> 
> Nearly twice as many people die EVERY YEAR from *falling down flights of stairs*.
> 
> ...



Londons official status is up to "critical" too so forgive me for being cautious?.

Judging me because I dont want to put myself in harms way is ridiculous.


----------



## cwhitey2 (Oct 17, 2017)

lewis said:


> Londons official status is up to "critical" too so forgive me for being cautious?.
> 
> Judging me because I dont want to put myself in harms way is ridiculous.



In America you would just travel with a gun


----------



## StevenC (Oct 17, 2017)

To be fair, I'm pretty critical of anyone ripping off Strandberg.

Also, the likelihood of an attack and the likelihood of being involved in an attack are very different things.


----------



## narad (Oct 17, 2017)

lewis said:


> haha people are so salty in here.
> 
> Funny because there are literally loads of guitar builders ripping of this strandberg shape. Just because this one happens to be from "China" all fucking hell breaks loose.



I hate all strandberg copies equally, but at least other brands are "sorta" trying to do something different. Like there's lots of Rolex-like watches, but this is the equivalent of the guy on the corner selling stuff that says "Folex" for $15.

Like dude, it's your money, do what you want. But it's the thought that this is somehow preparing you or giving some glimpse into what it would be like to own a strandberg that's drawing the criticism here.


----------



## lewis (Oct 17, 2017)

narad said:


> I hate all strandberg copies equally, but at least other brands are "sorta" trying to do something different. Like there's lots of Rolex-like watches, but this is the equivalent of the guy on the corner selling stuff that says "Folex" for $15.
> 
> Like dude, it's your money, do what you want. But it's the thought that this is somehow preparing you or giving some glimpse into what it would be like to own a strandberg that's drawing the criticism here.


the body shape is an exact replica though and if you actually read what I had put in the earlier posts, you would see that its that, and ONLY that 1 aspect of this guitar, that I wanted to find out if i liked.

Not once did I ever say or think that this would be anything like an ACTUAL Strandberg. Quite blatantly it will be nowhere near one.


surely we should only use the humbuckers that were created by the very first guy then in whatever form they likely were.

Because all these Duncan, Dimarzio, bareknuckle, EMG and whatever else, are all technically ripping off whoever invented humbuckers to begin with.

People really do pick and choose when this rule applies to them.
I think alot of people need to get down off their soapbox.
Nothing Ive done or said is warranted any criticism.
Half the posts in here have been incapable of being objective and instead many seem to be on some BS vendetta against me.

Well to those people I say,
go screw yourselves. I come in here because I genuinely like the conversation, insight, sharing etc that one can expect to get on a moderated forum. I come here daily and post here alot. ive been here years and like to think Ive contributed and helped this forum and users within it asking for help etc.
Look at the likes etc?.

And what do you get on the back of just sharing a guitar purchase?. This complete nonsense.

No one has any right to condone anything Ive said or done. Vilifying me is honestly pathetic but hey whatever you guys need to do to make yourselves feel better. Glad I can help.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 17, 2017)

I still don’t understand how all these against arguments don’t also apply to agile.


----------



## lewis (Oct 17, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I still don’t understand how all these against arguments don’t also apply to agile.


I dont know either.

Like I said just now, people love picking and choosing when this Moral BS applies.

Im literally going to blank any negative posts in here now.


----------



## narad (Oct 17, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I still don’t understand how all these against arguments don’t also apply to agile.



Not that I'm for Agiles in any way, but what shape does Agile copy directly?


----------



## StevenC (Oct 17, 2017)

I don't think you understand what anyone here's saying. If your reasoning were to buy the guitar out of morbid curiosity, the response would be significantly different. But you're trying to play this off like some shrewd financial decision, which it really isn't. How comfortable the body of a Boden is really won't be the issue with whether you like playing it. That just isn't an issue people have.

But whatever, let's suppose that's a real issue. You're proposing the best way to test that is to pay £350 to buy a cheap knock off. People have suggested other more sensible ways: ordering and returning the real deal, which would be free; or travelling to somewhere that sells the real deal, for a small fee. Both of these would allow you to test the actual divisive issue with these guitars: EndurNeck. But you rubbished those because you can't afford the first one, fair, and you'll be a terror victim in London, ridiculous.

Whatever, let's suppose going to London is life threatening. There are many other Guitar Guitar stores across the country. I just suggested London because it seemed to be the closest. Or, considering how nice a person Ola has been in all my interactions with him, he may have been able to help you out and find someone more local to you that could let you try one. I'm truly sorry I never suggested that. @narad has a Strandberg.

Any of these would have been a cheaper way to try a Strandberg. Your refusal to acknowledge these as more sensible and even money conscious leads people to believe that you're either lying about your motives, or too arrogant to admit you made a mistake.


----------



## DredFul (Oct 17, 2017)

lewis said:


> surely we should only use the humbuckers that were created by the very first guy then in whatever form they likely were.
> 
> Because all these Duncan, Dimarzio, bareknuckle, EMG and whatever else, are all technically ripping off whoever invented humbuckers to begin with.



Gotta chime in to say that this argument is not really valid. All those pickup brands while technically ripping off the original are also improving the design and creating alternative(as in different, more suited for metal for example) options. I don't think a chinese Strandberg copy improved the design in any way. (I could be wrong though)

While I do think that this thread contains many unnecessary posts since you have clearly made up your mind on the topic and those critizing your actions only repeat what's been already said, I also think you playing the victim game and flat out looking for a fight (not the best word choice, excuse my english. I'm referring to "whatever you guys need to do to make yourselves feel better. Glad I can help.") just makes things worse.

No one is villifying you. People probably don't even care about this as much as you might think. I do understand that it's easy to get on a defensive stance when you have bunch of people critizing what you're doing but try not to label others as haters just so you can dismiss what they have to say. You might not always be right and that is hard to admit believe me I know. But sometimes you just need to acknowledge that you maybe didn't make the best call. Or just finish the argument with "hey, lets agree to disagree"


TL;DR
This argument is going nowhere so lets tone it down before this thread gets locked.


----------



## V_man (Oct 17, 2017)

cwhitey2 said:


> In America you would just travel with a gun


A bulletproof vest would be my choice.


----------



## DudeManBrother (Oct 17, 2017)

Looks fantastic @lewis I hope it works out for you


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## exo (Oct 17, 2017)

All I really care about is the NGD/review at this point. It looks good.....but IS it?


----------



## exo (Oct 17, 2017)

All I really care about is the NGD/review at this point. It looks good.....but IS it?


----------



## mastapimp (Oct 18, 2017)

Hope it works out for you. After catching up on this thread, all I can think about is:


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## Splenetic (Oct 18, 2017)

BY NANI inspires confidence.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

DudeManBrother said:


> Looks fantastic @lewis I hope it works out for you



thanks dude  im certainly pleased with the finish. I saw the stock image and a part of me was worried it would look nothing like that when it was completed. Alas it worked out great.



exo said:


> All I really care about is the NGD/review at this point. It looks good.....but IS it?



absolutely this!. He sent me measuring pictures to prove the scale length is correct so it should setup/intonate fine. Jury is out. But i cant fault anything so far. He even finished it slightly earlier than the estimated time. Its on its way and i have tracking info now.




mastapimp said:


> Hope it works out for you. After catching up on this thread, all I can think about is:



haha i actually got bought some of these years ago before they were redesigned to this, and hilariously they worked ok. Just had a massive low end haha


----------



## iamaom (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> Support an industry that profits by ripping off original designs and producing them in terrible conditions


So 99% of the guitar industry? Should no one buy a Warmoth because they used nearly identical Gibson and Krammer shaped headstocks and bodies? Fender produces Squires in the same Chinese factory these are made in, almost every major brand has cheap $150 guitars made in those same horrible working conditions. Brands we love today like Ibanez got their start by ripping off other brands and having them produced cheaper in china (and some law-suite era guitars are even collector's items and worth a pretty penny now). And if you're so opposed to horrible Chinese labor then why aren't you complaining Strandberg uses them? Even if they pay "top dollar" as far as China goes, it's still less costly than being made in the west, so they are still exploiting cheaper labor, just not as quite bad as others.

I have no idea why so many in this thread are taking such offense to buying a chinese knockoff, as if it were some new thing. The guitar industry didn't care about headless guitars, and Gibson had a well known brand they neglected, so Strandberg swooped in to fill the gap. If Strandberg doesn't want to offer a price for their guitar that many who would want one can afford, then others fill in the gap, that's just capitalism. The fact that a company in the same country as their "budget" models can make one for such a cheaper price shows that it is possible. I'm sure that Strandberg would get OP's money if they introduced a $500 model, with everyone knowing it wouldn't be a "real" Strandberg, they could even call it something different to preserve name integrity (like most other brands do).



narad said:


> Not that I'm for Agiles in any way, but what shape does Agile copy directly?


Their strats, teles, P basses, and J basses. Not to mention that just about any "strat" like guitar is ripping off the Stratocaster with slight improvements over time. Even the Boden takes the standard shape Leo made decades ago and modifies it. I guess that leads to a Thesus' Ship problem, how many things can you change from an original design before its no longer considered a modified version of the original? The only guitars that can claim to be truly "unique" are over in the Funny Guitars thread.


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Oct 18, 2017)

Just noticing it now, but it looks like double ball strings only? Kinda puts a pretty big limit on what you can or can't get doesn't it? 

Pretty or not, that'd be a deal breaker for me if it's the case.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

iamaom said:


> So 99% of the guitar industry? Should no one buy a Warmoth because they used nearly identical Gibson and Krammer shaped headstocks and bodies? Fender produces Squires in the same Chinese factory these are made in, almost every major brand has cheap $150 guitars made in those same horrible working conditions. Brands we love today like Ibanez got their start by ripping off other brands and having them produced cheaper in china (and some law-suite era guitars are even collector's items and worth a pretty penny now). And if you're so opposed to horrible Chinese labor then why aren't you complaining Strandberg uses them? Even if they pay "top dollar" as far as China goes, it's still less costly than being made in the west, so they are still exploiting cheaper labor, just not as quite bad as others.
> 
> I have no idea why so many in this thread are taking such offense to buying a chinese knockoff, as if it were some new thing. The guitar industry didn't care about headless guitars, and Gibson had a well known brand they neglected, so Strandberg swooped in to fill the gap. If Strandberg doesn't want to offer a price for their guitar that many who would want one can afford, then others fill in the gap, that's just capitalism. The fact that a company in the same country as their "budget" models can make one for such a cheaper price shows that it is possible. I'm sure that Strandberg would get OP's money if they introduced a $500 model, with everyone knowing it wouldn't be a "real" Strandberg, they could even call it something different to preserve name integrity (like most other brands do).
> 
> ...



Take a damn bow sir!.
One of the best posts Ive ever read on here.

and FYI if we got a £500 Strandberg I would absolutely have bought it over this so nail on the head.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Just noticing it now, but it looks like double ball strings only? Kinda puts a pretty big limit on what you can or can't get doesn't it?
> 
> Pretty or not, that'd be a deal breaker for me if it's the case.


its not, i checked.
Single ball mate. The ball end is at the head part, and the other end just wraps around a part of the bridge.


----------



## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

iamaom said:


> If Strandberg doesn't want to offer a price for their guitar that many who would want one can afford, then others fill in the gap, that's just capitalism.



You've got a warped view of capitalism. I know things might seem otherwise on SSO in particular, online home of strandberg, but Ola's just starting out. ~6 years ago he was playing around with styrofoam test bodies for what would become the boden, and he's obviously been trying to get models out there that reduce price while still being true to the brand. Now if someone wants to copy the exact body, undercut him further, that's a pretty shitty thing to do. It's a pretty shitty thing to support. But at the same time, you get what you pay for, so good luck with that.

But it's also illegal. If these were two companies in the same EU/US nation, Ola could take them to court. So here the mechanism for defending your IP is failing because the under-cutters are in China, beyond the reach of Ola's legal jurisdiction.

Regarding this apparently confusing position on copies -- I have a lot of disdain for any company takes someone else's design and tries to manufacture a shitty version of it for a lower price. I don't have any qualms with a company making a _better_ version of their product, for any price. I have a Navigator les paul custom and a Navigator strat. They're both made in ways that are truer to 1950s production and materials than anything Gibson or Fender puts out today. I paid roughly the same for them as I would a Gibson. I didn't look in my bank and say, whelp, $300, guess I'll get whatever version of the guitar I want anyone will give me for $300. I turned $300 into $3000 over some months, and then I bought the actual high quality thing.


----------



## xzacx (Oct 18, 2017)

iamaom said:


> So 99% of the guitar industry? Should no one buy a Warmoth because they used nearly identical Gibson and Krammer shaped headstocks and bodies? Fender produces Squires in the same Chinese factory these are made in, almost every major brand has cheap $150 guitars made in those same horrible working conditions. Brands we love today like Ibanez got their start by ripping off other brands and having them produced cheaper in china (and some law-suite era guitars are even collector's items and worth a pretty penny now).



Exactly - I would never buy a Warmoth knockoff, nor any other brand. And Fender can produce whatever they want, because it's their designs. I'm not buying them, but a "Squire" (as you call it) is a far cry from a 3rd party knocking it off. Same with Epiphone.

It never ceases to amaze me how OK people are in the guitar world with blatant copies. Growing up (and even today), wearing a pair of fake Jordans would get you ridiculed. Post a knockoff guitar on here? "Cool Hypemachine bro - gonna sound sick in drop F#." So no, I wouldn't buy any guitar that rips off another design just to be cheaper, the same way I wouldn't date a girl who carried a fake bag, or wouldn't wear a knockoff jacket.

It's one thing to take an existing design and try to improve upon it, but that's not what we're talking about. The only thing this stuff is about is producing to a price point. Similar to what narad said, I'd love to drive an R8, but I can't afford one - and that means I just don't have it. Maybe I'll save up for one, or maybe I'll just stick with stuff I can afford. But you sure won't see me putting some kind of body kit on a cheaper car and claiming I did it just so I could feel what the door handle was like on a real R8, which I couldn't try out because the Audi dealership is on the other side of town where there was a robbery four years ago.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

so will the guys who have stated multiple times they wont support this purchase or what it stands for, kindly leave the thread now?


----------



## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> so will the guys who have stated multiple times they wont support this purchase or what it stands for, kindly leave the thread now?



We're just replying to "One of the best posts Ive ever read on here" ;-)


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> We're just replying to "One of the best posts Ive ever read on here" ;-)


*sigh*
I helped you out with some IKEA shelf suggestions too.

ah well.


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> its not, i checked.
> Single ball mate. The ball end is at the head part, and the other end just wraps around a part of the bridge.



That's a damn relief. Had me scared for a minute.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> That's a damn relief. Had me scared for a minute.


haha yeah that would have been dreadful tbh


----------



## buriedoutback (Oct 18, 2017)

the pics look awesome! i'm following this thread with interest in my own possible custom. good luck man.


----------



## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> *sigh*
> I helped you out with some IKEA shelf suggestions too.
> 
> ah well.



Which I appreciate (and will arrive Tuesday), but c'mon, this isn't personal -- I'm not saying what I'm saying out of spite or because you didn't do enough for me, they're just (what I believe are the right) opinions to topics that come up as discussion in threads waivers around.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> Which I appreciate (and will arrive Tuesday), but c'mon, this isn't personal -- I'm not saying what I'm saying out of spite or because you didn't do enough for me, they're just (what I believe are the right) opinions to topics that come up as discussion in threads waivers around.


some pictures of new setup and will call it even? haha

nah I know what you are saying. But literally anytime I log on here it seems Im having to battle away multiple people. Can feel like everyone is against you whether you mean it personal or not mate.


----------



## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

buriedoutback said:


> the pics look awesome! i'm following this thread with interest in my own possible custom. good luck man.


thanks so much buddy!! 

hopefully in about 2 weeks time I will have it and be able to put up a NGD thread.
Shortly after I plan to do a video review of its pros and cons.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> You've got a warped view of capitalism. I know things might seem otherwise on SSO in particular, online home of strandberg, but Ola's just starting out. ~6 years ago he was playing around with styrofoam test bodies for what would become the boden, and he's obviously been trying to get models out there that reduce price while still being true to the brand. Now if someone wants to copy the exact body, undercut him further, that's a pretty shitty thing to do. It's a pretty shitty thing to support. But at the same time, you get what you pay for, so good luck with that.
> 
> But it's also illegal. If these were two companies in the same EU/US nation, Ola could take them to court. So here the mechanism for defending your IP is failing because the under-cutters are in China, beyond the reach of Ola's legal jurisdiction.
> 
> Regarding this apparently confusing position on copies -- I have a lot of disdain for any company takes someone else's design and tries to manufacture a shitty version of it for a lower price. I don't have any qualms with a company making a _better_ version of their product, for any price. I have a Navigator les paul custom and a Navigator strat. They're both made in ways that are truer to 1950s production and materials than anything Gibson or Fender puts out today. I paid roughly the same for them as I would a Gibson. I didn't look in my bank and say, whelp, $300, guess I'll get whatever version of the guitar I want anyone will give me for $300. I turned $300 into $3000 over some months, and then I bought the actual high quality thing.



It's not illegal though. There's no precedent for copyrights of guitar bodies. none at all. As long as they are not labeled strandberg or boden there is no grounds for any legal action.


----------



## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> some pictures of new setup and will call it even? haha



sooooon



diagrammatiks said:


> It's not illegal though. There's no precedent for copyrights of guitar bodies. none at all. As long as they are not labeled strandberg or boden there is no grounds for any legal action.



Trademark infringement. There's a long history of people winning cases on both sides, but currently Gibson has exclusive rights to a bunch of their shapes. Especially true of larger companies like Gibson going after smaller companies that use the same, or even similar shapes (if you wonder why the PRS singlecut horn changed shape -- though PRS eventually had the ruling over-turned). Sometimes this is legally backed up and they win the case, sometimes they're just out to cost the smaller company a load of legal fees. I'm not a jury, I don't know how it would turn out here.

But let's just talk in terms of principle. The boden is a design -- Ola's the one that had to sit down and do the R&D, to build decent guitars, to market them to artists to the point that we as a community even know what they are. And the copier just needed to go and get the outline of the shape on a piece of paper (which Ola used to distribute under license for free personal use anyway, because that's the kind of guy he is). So like that's the situation, you make up your own moral code as to what is fair action.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> sooooon
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the trademark only for the headstock design and the logo, neither of which can be used by other companies. Gibson just lost a huge lawsuit concerning their guitar shapes.
There's no reason to get into principle here. Ola patented and copyrighted the things that he was legally allowed to patent and copyright. The distribution of the design was a nice gesture but an unnecessary one. The biggest part of those licenses was the serial for the enduraneck which was a legally necessary.



xzacx said:


> Exactly - I would never buy a Warmoth knockoff, nor any other brand. And Fender can produce whatever they want, because it's their designs. I'm not buying them, but a "Squire" (as you call it) is a far cry from a 3rd party knocking it off. Same with Epiphone.
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me how OK people are in the guitar world with blatant copies. Growing up (and even today), wearing a pair of fake Jordans would get you ridiculed. Post a knockoff guitar on here? "Cool Hypemachine bro - gonna sound sick in drop F#." So no, I wouldn't buy any guitar that rips off another design just to be cheaper, the same way I wouldn't date a girl who carried a fake bag, or wouldn't wear a knockoff jacket.
> 
> It's one thing to take an existing design and try to improve upon it, but that's not what we're talking about. The only thing this stuff is about is producing to a price point. Similar to what narad said, I'd love to drive an R8, but I can't afford one - and that means I just don't have it. Maybe I'll save up for one, or maybe I'll just stick with stuff I can afford. But you sure won't see me putting some kind of body kit on a cheaper car and claiming I did it just so I could feel what the door handle was like on a real R8, which I couldn't try out because the Audi dealership is on the other side of town where there was a robbery four years ago.



This is clearly just insane. You're going to be so concerned about the perception of your social status that you'll get into a tizzy about what other people do with their money. I guess that makes you a cool dude?

I can afford an R8 and I have no opinion about modding cars...because it literally doesn't affect me in anyway. My cars don't get shittier just because someone wants to glue some parts onto their car. Also this shit makes no sense. You know when people buy used cars the manufacturer gets no money right? You gonna look down on people that buy used r8s as well?

I can't believe its 2018 and people still think a black machine is anything else other then a slimmer RG with a derivative parker headstock. You buy those things because you want black machine to make you a guitar not because there's anything in the design that can be patented due to innovation. If it could, black machine could have patented it and blocked all derivate sales into the U.K. let me know when that happens.

edited because i can't even remember who builds black machines anymore


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> the trademark only for the headstock design and the logo, neither of which can be used by other companies. Gibson just lost a huge lawsuit concerning their guitar shapes.
> There's no reason to get into principle here. Ola patented and copyrighted the things that he was legally allowed to patent and copyright. The distribution of the design was a nice gesture but an unnecessary one. The biggest part of those licenses was the serial for the enduraneck which was a legally necessary.
> 
> 
> ...



another stellar post here. Some brilliant points made very well. Also, the bolded part I thought myself as soon as i started getting stick in here for the order. Thats exactly what a Black machine is haha


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## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> the trademark only for the headstock design and the logo, neither of which can be used by other companies. Gibson just lost a huge lawsuit concerning their guitar shapes.
> There's no reason to get into principle here. Ola patented and copyrighted the things that he was legally allowed to patent and copyright. The distribution of the design was a nice gesture but an unnecessary one. The biggest part of those licenses was the serial for the enduraneck which was a legally necessary.



It's bodies. Go check it out for yourself. They're going after Hamer right now because they have trademarks on all the future-esque 55' shapes. You could be thinking of some different case, but they've won their recent ones. 

And Ola didn't even have time to continue the licensing program for a bunch of stuff, he's stretched thin so he's obviously not going to go about any action at this point. I've only seen him post on Facebook to know that it's bothersome. So at this point, no, but realistically even if he went through the process there's still going to be Chinese copies as there are still Chinese copies of everything. If they're copying iphones you can believe that they're well out of Ola's control.

Like I said, it's going to come down to your own moral code. Support the guy that did the legwork to create the product, or give your money to the guy that copies him.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 18, 2017)

I stopped railing on OP about the concept many pages ago, his mind is made up, and I just hope he doesn't get a lemon.

However just to quickly chime in on the IP discussion the guy who said he wouldn't want his girl to buy a fake bag is bang on, yeah a real Guess bag isn't worth the price you pay, but the fake one is worth literally nothing, many knockoffs are made with carcinogenic materials have rat feces and other things in and on them that can't be seen with the naked eye.

There are also similar types of issues with knock off guitars, I feel like this factory is slightly less likely of it seeing as they are doing headless stuff they are clearly actually trying to make an instrument for someone who is somewhat savvy.

But the Chibsons are ridiculous, truss rod adjusters glued in for appearance that connect to nothing, shoddy wiring and scale lengths and neck angles and so many other things.

Clearly this is a lost cause though, dude copped to buying fake beats back in the day too so thats just how he rolls.

In conclusion not trying to change your mind or disrespect your buying habits, honestly praying you get a working guitar, even if you don't it will look cooler on your wall than many paintings which cost much much more.

For me I would rather buy nothing than buy a cheaper alternative, I bought so many pairs of $50 dollar headphones hoping for a bargain, that all lived short lives, would have cost less and been way better to save for the 250 dollar pair that has yet to fail me and allows me to enjoy my music more. 

But again good luck sorry to be preachy, even if its a dud you got a steal on that 4x12 so chin up OP


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

Dineley said:


> I stopped railing on OP about the concept many pages ago, his mind is made up, and I just hope he doesn't get a lemon.
> 
> However just to quickly chime in on the IP discussion the guy who said he wouldn't want his girl to buy a fake bag is bang on, yeah a real Guess bag isn't worth the price you pay, but the fake one is worth literally nothing, many knockoffs are made with carcinogenic materials have rat feces and other things in and on them that can't be seen with the naked eye.
> 
> ...



Woah now. I did not confess to buying anything. I actually said they were bought for me as a gift. By my completely ignorant mother whilst on holiday in Turkey no less.


and to your last point. Thank you. Im still looking forward to it despite it feeling a little tarnished now with all the stick its created in this thread.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> Woah now. I did not confess to buying anything. I actually said they were bought for me as a gift. By my completely ignorant mother whilst on holiday in Turkey no less.
> 
> 
> and to your last point. Thank you. Im still looking forward to it despite it feeling a little tarnished now with all the stick its created in this thread.



haha sorry I just remember you saying you had a pair, my bad for fail comprehension, and don't worry man if its fun to play its fun to play, people will chirp no matter what.

It's like when people say you have sweet tone, and then find out your using line 6 modeller and they act like it was actually shit.

Just do you and you'll be fine.


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

Dineley said:


> haha sorry I just remember you saying you had a pair, my bad for fail comprehension, and don't worry man if its fun to play its fun to play, people will chirp no matter what.
> 
> It's like when people say you have sweet tone, *and then find out your using line 6 modeller and they act like it was actually shit*.
> 
> Just do you and you'll be fine.



That is so incredibly true haha


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> It's bodies. Go check it out for yourself. They're going after Hamer right now because they have trademarks on all the future-esque 55' shapes. You could be thinking of some different case, but they've won their recent ones.
> 
> And Ola didn't even have time to continue the licensing program for a bunch of stuff, he's stretched thin so he's obviously not going to go about any action at this point. I've only seen him post on Facebook to know that it's bothersome. So at this point, no, but realistically even if he went through the process there's still going to be Chinese copies as there are still Chinese copies of everything. If they're copying iphones you can believe that they're well out of Ola's control.
> 
> Like I said, it's going to come down to your own moral code. Support the guy that did the legwork to create the product, or give your money to the guy that copies him.




https://scarincihollenbeck.com/news/congratulations/guitar-counterfeiting-claim-dismissed/

This is the lawsuit they lost last year which applies to a number of body styles. 

Now to be clear there are sellers selling the grotebergs with strandberg labels and fake labeled emgs. That's clearly wrong and illegal but that's not the case here. 

I think your choice is essentially false. I can believe one thing and do the other. I have 2 strandbergs and I'll buy two more next year before deciding if I want to wait for a m2m. At the same time...these chinese guitars as long as they aren't illegally branded aren't strandbergs. They don't compete in the same price point. They don't have the hardware and features that are patented and used by real strandbergs. No-one is going to a store and buy one thinking they are buying a real strandberg. Stores aren't getting shipments of these in lieu of strandbergs. At that point they don't even meet the harm criteria for a copyright claim.


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> https://scarincihollenbeck.com/news/congratulations/guitar-counterfeiting-claim-dismissed/
> 
> This is the lawsuit they lost last year which applies to a number of body styles.
> 
> ...



Believe it or not I was actually keen to avoid any fake branding etc. So as you say, my build has no strandberg logos or the fake EMGs etc.
To be fair to the particular guy I used, NONE of his builds do that I can see. Any logos if you want them, are of the "grote" name and thats it.

so again, I agree with you 100% here.


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## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> https://scarincihollenbeck.com/news/congratulations/guitar-counterfeiting-claim-dismissed/
> 
> This is the lawsuit they lost last year which applies to a number of body styles.





> Gibson Brands, Inc. is pleased to announce that the company has successfully confirmed the exclusive rights to their trademarked body and headstock designs of the iconic ES, SG, Flying V and Explorer guitar models as the result of a legal dispute and settlement with John Hornby Skewes and Co. Ltd. (JHS).
> 
> As part of the agreement, John Hornby Skewes and Co. Ltd. acknowledges Gibson’s exclusive rights to these products and designs after being sued for trademark infringement. Other specific terms of the agreement are confidential. Gibson is pleased with the result.


 -- Same guy, 2017


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## xzacx (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> This is clearly just insane. You're going to be so concerned about the perception of your social status that you'll get into a tizzy about what other people do with their money. I guess that makes you a cool dude?



It has nothing to do with social status. It has to do with what supporting counterfeit goods says about a person that's willing to buy/wear/use a design that's literally been stolen from it's originator with the sole purpose of undercutting them, and wanting to fit in with said product so much they're OK with it.

For a specific example - there's nothing wrong with a girl carrying a $50 bag (or whatever price) from Target. Maybe she can't afford something more expensive, maybe high-end bags just aren't her thing, or maybe she just liked the cheaper one. But a fake YSL bag that they spent $500 on? That's an awful look to me, and it's because of what it says about them as a person, that they cared about showing a brand name so much they were willing to essentially steal from the original designer.



diagrammatiks said:


> I can't believe its 2018 and people still think a black machine is anything else other then a slimmer RG with a derivative parker headstock. You buy those things because you want black machine to make you a guitar not because there's anything in the design that can be patented due to innovation. If it could, black machine could have patented it and blocked all derivate sales into the U.K. let me know when that happens.
> 
> edited because i can't even remember who builds black machines anymore



I don't give a shit about Blackmachine myself, or even get the appeal, was just giving an example of a blatant rip-off that's praised around here.



Dineley said:


> However just to quickly chime in on the IP discussion the guy who said he wouldn't want his girl to buy a fake bag is bang on, yeah a real Guess bag isn't worth the price you pay, but the fake one is worth literally nothing, many knockoffs are made with carcinogenic materials have rat feces and other things in and on them that can't be seen with the naked eye.



Kind of besides the point, but I'd argue that truly high-end goods like this are actually somewhat worth the prices based on being hand made and ridiculously high quality - not unlike a high-end guitar really. They're made by highly skilled craftspeople being paid first-world wages. That's not to say the prices aren't inflated due to the names on those items, but ironically the most expensive stuff usually has the most minimal branding. But to your actual point - absolutely. There's a reason that stuff is so cheap, and it often comes at the expense of the health of those making it.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> -- Same guy, 2017



if this is the case then to be consistent..we'd also have to be against every ltd/esp tele/strat shape, suhr, anderson, grosh, harley benton, agile, and a ton of other makers. right?


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## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> if this is the case then to be consistent..we'd also have to be against every ltd/esp tele/strat shape, suhr, anderson, grosh, harley benton, agile, and a ton of other makers. right?



You mean in terms of moral stance or legal stance? I mean, Gibson is precisely why the Anderson bulldog was pulled for a ton of years despite only vaguely resembling the LP.

But morally, Suhr and Anderson do a better job at building strats than Fender, so I support them. Their shapes are also slightly different and the headstocks are obviously very different.

But anyway, this is making a quick diversion into a prolonged one, so happy to have a whole thread on this topic separately.


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## bostjan (Oct 18, 2017)

You have to draw the line somewhere, and where ever the line is drawn, it should be the same for every manufacturer. You can't rightly have Gibson be able to trademark the Les Paul body shape and, at the same time, have Fender be unable to make the same claims over the Strat shape.

If the line being drawn has something to do with improving the design, then PRS, Anderson, etc., should all be legally in the clear.

The OP's guitar is something entirely different from that, though. No reasonable person would argue that this is a case of "paying homage" to another design. I think we've seen time and time again that these guitars from knockoff builders can turn out okay, but almost never deliver on all promises. I think buying a counterfeit product has its definite dangers, and those go beyond getting a faulty product. The culturally different approach to IP ownership in China from that of pretty much the rest of the world is why you can order stuff like this and still expect delivery. I really don't think these builders are willfully scamming people, otherwise, they would just not send you anything. If you complained to consumer protection agencies, they'd just wave their finger at you for purchasing an illegal product anyway. It's lose/lose for the buyer.

And we've seen the expectation in what you get from any builder lately going right down the tubes. Anyone whose been around this forum for awhile knows exactly the names of high-end boutique builders who routinely delivered garbage-grade guitars for premium prices to forum members, or, in many cases, took the premium money and absconded. In so many ways, this Chinese builders delivering playable guitars, with the correct handedness and frets that aren't installed every random whichway, for reasonable prices are two steps ahead of the average builder right off the bat.

But, from a moral standpoint, personally, I would not support such a builder, since their very business model flies in the face of fairness in my culture. Just had to say that.

But I'm very interested to see how this comes out nonetheless, and wish the OP the best of luck.


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

bostjan said:


> You have to draw the line somewhere, and where ever the line is drawn, it should be the same for every manufacturer. You can't rightly have Gibson be able to trademark the Les Paul body shape and, at the same time, have Fender be unable to make the same claims over the Strat shape.
> 
> If the line being drawn has something to do with improving the design, then PRS, Anderson, etc., should all be legally in the clear.
> 
> ...



Well written and thank you.


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

also to add, I was looking at some Kiesel guitars earlier and the "Vader" headless shape to me looks like a blatant rip off of a Steinberger/Strandberg hybrid. Ive never seen anyone bring up any issues with buying Kiesels etc.

So is it ok to take a design, blatantly copy it but make deliberate changes to get away with it?
Seems like a complete grey area to me that, but hey ho.


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## GuitarBizarre (Oct 18, 2017)

bostjan said:


> You have to draw the line somewhere, and where ever the line is drawn, it should be the same for every manufacturer. You can't rightly have Gibson be able to trademark the Les Paul body shape and, at the same time, have Fender be unable to make the same claims over the Strat shape.


The thing is, the line WAS drawn in the same place for those two manufacturers.

The line was "Something that is your trademark is legally protected as long as you make the attempt to protect it"

Both companies did, but Gibson started right away and Fender didn't. As a result, Gibson have retained their trademarks in terms of body shapes whereas Fender's lapsed before they got around to calling a lawyer.

On the same token, then, Ola certainly created the Boden body shape, but to what extent is it a trademark and to what extent does copyright actually apply to a body shape? If it's trademark, then the question becomes to what extent has he attempted to retain control of it? 

If the answer to the question is "Not to any great extent at all, legally speaking", then his trademark will lapse sooner rather than later in the eyes of the legal system, and Boden body shapes will simply be one of those things people can do without having to worry about it.


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## GuitarBizarre (Oct 18, 2017)

double


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## GuitarBizarre (Oct 18, 2017)

This is without getting into, of course, the argument that copyright law is a mess that many genres simply eschew and do away with entirely because it gets in the way of their artistic output (Vaporwave as a whole, for example). 

Nor does it get into the argument that trademark shouldn't really be applied to the characteristics of a product, but only to a logo or decorative element, which a guitar body straddles the line of being a functional object and a purely visual one.


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## xzacx (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> also to add, I was looking at some Kiesel guitars earlier and the "Vader" headless shape to me looks like a blatant rip off of a Steinberger/Strandberg hybrid. Ive never seen anyone bring up any issues with buying Kiesels etc.
> 
> So is it ok to take a design, blatantly copy it but make deliberate changes to get away with it?
> Seems like a complete grey area to me that, but hey ho.



I'd argue that practically every guitar in Kiesel's line is highly derivative of something else, and one of the reasons (among many) that I wouldn't buy one. I'm hardly the first person to bring that up though, and I've seen the Vader criticized for it in particular. That said, at least it uses a different construction method and has options unavailable from Strandberg. I think it was undoubtedly created in response to Strandberg's popularity though.


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## StevenC (Oct 18, 2017)

I mean, the Vader is just an ugly guitar, though. It's just a guitar shape and it's headless. I hope we can all be mature enough to admit there are things in guitar design that shouldn't be protectable, like *having* cutaways and the way most bodies have that hourglass shape. I'm not sure I see how a Vader is a copy of a Strandberg, but maybe it's a very stylised Steinberger shape. 

But if we take that stance, a Steinberger is no more than a stylised block of wood shape. So yeah, it's ok to make changes to a shape so as not to be that shape. That's literally the whole argument of changing or improving that people have made in this thread.


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## xzacx (Oct 18, 2017)

lewis said:


> So is it ok to take a design, blatantly copy it but make deliberate changes to get away with it?
> Seems like a complete grey area to me that, but hey ho.



I think this point in particular is why some guitars end up with such fugly features, like the Suhr headstock for example. (Tons of examples with headstocks, I just picked the first one that came to mind.) Those original designs which inspired stuff like this got the design/proportions/shapes right, so changing it enough to get away with things legally often makes it look "wrong." Some of that is undoubtedly just the fact that we've been trained to expect a Strat headstock to look like a Strat headstock. But some of it is inferior design. Using this example, I'd argue that Suhr is much better at building guitars than designing them. And they've certinaly found a market for what they do.


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## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

xzacx said:


> I think this point in particular is why some guitars end up with such fugly features, like the Suhr headstock for example.



That definitely happens but I think Suhr's in the clear. He had that headstock back on Pensa-Suhrs, where the body was not strat-like at all (carve top superstrat, like Knopfler's). In his case it's just his own headstock that looked good on his more original designs (black with fancy binding) and not so good on typical Fender shapes.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 18, 2017)

i'll personally never understand people that think the fender headstocks are the correct good looking headstocks. they look like someone failed to draw a cock and balls.


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> i'll personally never understand people that think the fender headstocks are the correct good looking headstocks. they look like someone failed to draw a cock and balls.


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## xzacx (Oct 18, 2017)

narad said:


> That definitely happens but I think Suhr's in the clear. He had that headstock back on Pensa-Suhrs, where the body was not strat-like at all (carve top superstrat, like Knopfler's). In his case it's just his own headstock that looked good on his more original designs (black with fancy binding) and not so good on typical Fender shapes.



Good point - maybe the ESP pointy, which just chopped of the tip of the Jackson headstock, would have been a better example.


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## bostjan (Oct 18, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> The thing is, the line WAS drawn in the same place for those two manufacturers.
> 
> The line was "Something that is your trademark is legally protected as long as you make the attempt to protect it"
> 
> ...


But why would Ola not be able to retain control over his own IP and Gibson would? Is it a matter of financial prowess? If so, then that contradicts the assumption that the line is drawn in the same place for every manufacturer.

I'm a big fan of IP. Hell, I own a few patents myself. But...there's a lot of confusion about copying something when it comes down to merely aesthetics, because, let's agree that the shape of the body, in terms of trademarks, is not a matter of function. Plus, I think that whatever function you can come up with for a guitar's shape is going to be covered by some sort of prior art at this point.

It's the same when a band rips off another band. Does "Dani California" sound like "Last Dance with Mary Jane"? Absolutely. Did it copy it...mmm, I don't think so. Neither song has anything that makes it truly distinctive in common with the other. It's a judgement based off of subjectivity, but it's still something that can be agreed upon rationally. Now take "Every Breath You Take" by the Police and "I'll Be Missing You" by Puffy (or w/e he was called at the time), and the similarities obviously cross several lines that shouldn't be crossed. Sometimes I disagree with the courts. I didn't think that George Harrison song sounded like it ripped off any distinctive intellectual property from the Chiffons, yet they won a lawsuit filed against him. I think you have to somehow show how you did something novel with your song/design/invention, and then if someone else comes along and ripped off everything that isn't what made it distinctive, then it's probably a very grey area.

Like, I could write a song that has an Amajadd9 chord, no big deal, but if my song's chord progression is Amajadd9 - - F#madd9 - - Dsus2 - Esus2 - F#madd9, then I probably ripped it off from the Police. If I change it to Gmajadd9 - - Emadd9 - - Csus2 - Dsus2 - Emadd9, and include the lyrics:

Every step we take, every move we make
Every other day, every place we stay
I'll be thinking of you

I copped it.

So if you take another person's trademarked design and turn it into MADLIBS, replacing some random stuff to make it "not technically exactly the same," I think it'll be obvious in most cases. You know?

BONUS EXAMPLE:

I hear the train a comin', it's rolling 'round the bend
And I ain't ___verb____, since I don't know when
_______ ___place____ ____interjectory_phrase_____
_______phrase that rhymes with last phrase____

When I was just a baby my mama told me, "___something your mom would call you_____
_____something your mom would tell you to do_____"
But I ___something bad___ just ___verbal phrase___
When I hear that whistle blowing, I hang my head and cry

I ___verb___ rich folks eating ___preposition____ fancy dining car
They're probably ____two things rich people enjoy doing___
___tongue in cheek reference to envy____

____ if ___scenario where you are not where you currently are____
If that railroad train was mine
I bet I'd __verb__ a little farther down the line
Far from ___place___, that's where I _verb_ to stay
And I'd let that lonesome whistle blow my blues away

Is that "Folsom Prison Blues," "Crescent City Blues," or just a generic old blues song?


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## narad (Oct 18, 2017)

Short answer: leave it for the courts to decide, case-by-case, and try not to reason too much over the absolute catch-all logic should be.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 18, 2017)

What we should all really be focusing on, is how much DRUM MAKERS rip each other off on shape... I mean' fucking cmon!!!!


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## bostjan (Oct 18, 2017)

Dineley said:


> What we should all really be focusing on, is how much DRUM MAKERS rip each other off on shape... I mean' fucking cmon!!!!


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## lewis (Oct 18, 2017)

bostjan said:


>


Dafuq is those bass drums? hahaha


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## laxu (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> also to add, I was looking at some Kiesel guitars earlier and the "Vader" headless shape to me looks like a blatant rip off of a Steinberger/Strandberg hybrid. Ive never seen anyone bring up any issues with buying Kiesels etc.
> 
> So is it ok to take a design, blatantly copy it but make deliberate changes to get away with it?
> Seems like a complete grey area to me that, but hey ho.



The only things common with those designs are that they are all headless Strat-based designs. It's not a huge innovation to take a Strat shape and lop off a piece from the back to fit the tuners.

Basically every electric guitar is based on a Fender or Gibson design because they are essentially what shaped the electric guitar. Fender and Gibson just haven't been very good at defending their shapes so they only have trademarks for logo and headstock design that others can't use. Rickenbacker on the other hand has been super vigilant and that's why you find barely any Rick copies on the market.

The failings of F and G are a huge boon to the guitar industry because it allows brands like Suhr to exist - brands that make a better Strat or Tele than most of what Fender offers. Then you have brands like G&L - the company Leo Fender founded in his later years. When he was alive, which was the "real" Fender? His previous or current company?

If we take OP's guitar, legal claims would only come in if it said Strandberg on the body or used the patented Endurneck profile without a license. Same as those Chinese Gibson copies trying to be peddled as something they are not.

Replica guitars are a gray area as there are plenty of those that have been built with Gibson headstocks but they are not sold as such and instead they talk about a Yaron LP for example and in pictures the headstock is never shown. Personally I don't understand why someone would be so hung up on a brand name on the headstock when the builder's work speaks for itself - apparently again better period accurate Gibsons than Gibson does.


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## exo (Oct 19, 2017)

I see so much of the word "counterfeit" being thrown around over the last couple pages, it's starting to remind me of Vizzini saying "Inconcievable!"......and I'm sorta feeling like Inigo Montoya about it.

There are some very obvious, very visible differences between Lewis' guitar and a Strandberg, starting with no logo, very obviously different hardware, a completely different neck joint, and the body being "off" slightly with the upper horns and butt end where the strap button is. One could justifiably say that while this is DEFINITELY "Strandberg inspired", it's no more a counterfeit Strandberg than an '82 Charvel with the Fender style headstock is a "counterfeit Stratocaster".


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## Wolfhorsky (Oct 19, 2017)

Ola can always put copyrights on his headstock design...oh wait...


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## xzacx (Oct 19, 2017)

exo said:


> One could justifiably say that while this is DEFINITELY "Strandberg inspired", it's no more a counterfeit Strandberg than an '82 Charvel with the Fender style headstock is a "counterfeit Stratocaster".



But the idea of those Charvels wasn't to undercut Fender by 75%, it was to build a better (errr..."super") Strat. That's the whole point of differentiation that's been brought up many times. Regarding the headstock, that definitely wasn't OK. But there's a reason those Charvels are celebrated rather than what we're talking about here.


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## exo (Oct 19, 2017)

xzacx said:


> But the idea of those Charvels wasn't to undercut Fender by 75%, it was to build a better (errr..."super") Strat. That's the whole point of differentiation that's been brought up many times. Regarding the headstock, that definitely wasn't OK. But there's a reason those Charvels are celebrated rather than what we're talking about here.



That still doesn't make this thing a "counterfeit" though.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

definition of "counterfeit" said:


> made in exact imitation of something valuable or important with the intention to deceive or defraud.



I believe the differences here are arguable in their level of "exact imitation," and the same with the apparent intent of this piece, so I would only agree that whether this guitar is counterfeit or not is arguable either way. Once the piece is in the hands of the buyer, and information as to its nature is made public, then the argument can unfold one way or the other, based on observations that cannot be made until that point.


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## exo (Oct 19, 2017)

There's a vast gulf of difference between "capitalizing on an aesthetic", which Lewis's guitar most certainly does and no one is denying, and "counterfeiting", though. This is functionally absolutely no different from going for a semi custom Agile AL model deliberately designed to mimic the original 1998 Joe Perry signature Les Paul, for example.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

Oh god more people in here making sense. I thought I was taking crazy pills.

I still don't understand the other side of the argument though. If this thing turns out to be super awesome great then it's automatically ok? wut.

I mean ibanez sure as hell didn't set out with the intention of making a better les paul. They set out to make affordable guitars for their home market given the super high import costs of usa guitars.


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## exo (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> Oh god more people in here making sense. I thought I was taking crazy pills.
> 
> I still don't understand the other side of the argument though. If this thing turns out to be super awesome great then it's automatically ok? wut.



Actually, I was siding with it's OK either way, he knows it's merely approximating an aesthetic, he what he's getting into, and if it's a shit guitar, it's a shit guitar regardless of whatever cosmetic approximation it happens to be.......


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

exo said:


> Actually, I was siding with it's OK either way, he knows it's merely approximating an aesthetic, he what he's getting into, and if it's a shit guitar, it's a shit guitar regardless of whatever cosmetic approximation it happens to be.......



I just don't think whether it's good or not is really relevant.


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## exo (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I just don't think whether it's good or not is really relevant.



Must have lost a little between the lines then, because I'm approaching the same conclusion from a different vantage point.

More clearly, it takes significantly more than "aesthetic approximation" to make a "counterfeit" item. 

The quality of said item is independent of the "counterfeit" arguement that's been bandied about.

Lewis' guitar is visibly, obviously different enough from a Strandberg, despite the borrowed aesthetics, that if folks want to brand it a "counterfeit", then to be intellectually honest, the logical extension is that an '82 Charvel is a "counterfeit" Fender Stratocaster, and a Keisel CT is a "counterfeit" PRS. They're both roughly in the same "aesthetic similarity" ballpark to their respective inspirations as Lewis' guitar is to it's obvious inspiration, and the Keisel aims to undercut a Maryland made PRS.....


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I just don't think whether it's good or not is really relevant.


I think it's absolutely relevant to how scammy this whole deal ends up being. If "counterfeit" means that it's copied in such as way as to fool a person into fraudulently believing it's a real product, then the instrument turning out to not be functional would prove that fraud was the primary intent, thus counterfeit.
From what I see, which is not the whole picture, this looks like it's a product intended to fool people into thinking its another product. I think it's fair to say that Ibanez also crossed the line early on, as their Les Paul copies used a headstock inlay and even a font on the "Ibanez" to look like a Gibson. But they paid the legal price for doing so.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

exo said:


> Lewis' guitar is visibly, obviously different enough from a Strandberg, despite the borrowed aesthetics, that if folks want to brand it a "counterfeit", then to be intellectually honest, the logical extension is that an '82 Charvel is a "counterfeit" Fender Stratocaster, and a Keisel CT is a "counterfeit" PRS. They're both roughly in the same "aesthetic similarity" ballpark to their respective inspirations as Lewis' guitar is to it's obvious inspiration, and the Keisel aims to undercut a Maryland made PRS.....



Disagree. These exact guitars are being sold on Ali Express AS Strandberg Boden models. Again, the line is drawn where you are trying to pass something off as something else. And, from the look of it, this guitar builder is passing work off to people as authentic something-it's-not, even if it's easy to tell from the hardware.

https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...e-shipping-6-strings/2532005_32775637004.html


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Disagree. These exact guitars are being sold on Ali Express AS Strandberg Boden models. Again, the line is drawn where you are trying to pass something off as something else. And, from the look of it, this guitar builder is passing work off to people as authentic something-it's-not, even if it's easy to tell from the hardware.
> 
> https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...e-shipping-6-strings/2532005_32775637004.html


that isnt the store I ordered from.

None of the guitars in the store I bought from have any mention of Boden, Strandberg or anything similar in their title.

As seen by the actual listing I bought from -
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/New...32820540472.html?spm=a2g0s.9042311.0.0.rgQ9oe

so no, this builder is NOT trying to counterfeit anything.

"New style headless guitar" is their "name"


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

Same builder I posted, different listing.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Same builder I posted, different listing.


no it isnt.

The "store" or "business" you posted are called "Guitar garden factory store" located in Xinjiang, China.
The Builders I ordered from are called "Asian Customised Guitar store" and are located in Shandong, China.

So how do you make out they are the same builder?


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

These guitars are made at the grote factory in China. They are OEM model guitars. The factory has an option to label these things with how they are supposed to be labeled which is grote. If third party sellers put strandberg on the guitars then yes they are counterfeiting. But that doesn't mean the base product is counterfeit. Only an idiot confuses these for a real strandberg.

Harley benton sells a line of budget tele and strat style guitars for like 150 bucks. Those are legal to sell. If I bought one and put a fender logo on it and tried to resale it that would be illegal. It has nothing to do with the base product in this particular case.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

The guitar I posted was built by "Grote" in Shandong. The seller listing it is someone else. But it says right in your description that the manufacturer is "Grote," and if you look into that store, many of their listings say "Grote" right in the title of nearly identical guitars to yours. Here's the thread here for Grote guitars: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/grote-guitars.313663/

I mean, this is not a new thing, this builder has been around and has made some changes, but I hope you don't think the guitar you bought is something different from what I showed as an example - just look at the products, they are the same, except for some cosmetic differences and a couple insignificant design modifications.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> The guitar I posted was built by "Grote" in Shandong. The seller listing it is someone else. But it says right in your description that the manufacturer is "Grote," and if you look into that store, many of their listings say "Grote" right in the title of nearly identical guitars to yours. Here's the thread here for Grote guitars: http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/grote-guitars.313663/
> 
> I mean, this is not a new thing, this builder has been around and has made some changes, but I hope you don't think the guitar you bought is something different from what I showed as an example - just look at the products, they are the same, except for some cosmetic differences and a couple insignificant design modifications.



I think you are missing the point of how ali express works. Yes you are correct that there is only one factory making these guitars. But they are all branded grotes if they are a non-oem sale.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> These guitars are made at the grote factory in China. They are OEM model guitars. The factory has an option to label these things with how they are supposed to be labeled which is grote. If third party sellers put strandberg on the guitars then yes they are counterfeiting. But that doesn't mean the base product is counterfeit. Only an idiot confuses these for a real strandberg.
> 
> Harley benton sells a line of budget tele and strat style guitars for like 150 bucks. Those are legal to sell. If I bought one and put a fender logo on it and tried to resale it that would be illegal. It has nothing to do with the base product in this particular case.



See, there's the cultural differences in how IP is protected. China has a culture that reinforces that there should be no legal protection of intellectual property. That's just the way it is.

AFAIK, Ola has only trademarked the name and patented the neck shape. That doesn't mean that these guitars are NOT copies, it just means that there is no enforceable legal protection.

If there are enough distinctive features that someone would look at this and say "this is a Strandberg," then it's a copy, for the sake of whatever discussion.



diagrammatiks said:


> I think you are missing the point of how ali express works. Yes you are correct that there is only one factory making these guitars. But they are all branded grotes if they are a non-oem sale.



Are you saying the two listings were made in different factories or are you fishing for a contention?


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> See, there's the cultural differences in how IP is protected. China has a culture that reinforces that there should be no legal protection of intellectual property. That's just the way it is.
> 
> AFAIK, Ola has only trademarked the name and patented the neck shape. That doesn't mean that these guitars are NOT copies, it just means that there is no enforceable legal protection.
> 
> ...



Your first point is just not true. IP enforcement is a consequence domestic laws and international regulation. The company I work for has a ton of software patents they we defend within China. But there's almost no way to litigate outside of China. That's just how global enforcement works. China also has a first to trademark precedent rather then a prior use precedent which is just really wacky.

I should also add that the other big difference is that the crazy amounts of retributive penalties that are common in the west are unheard of here and the amounts seem insane. Usually you get a cease and desist with a nominal fine with a threat of asset forfeiture as opposed to a cease and desist and a multiple of millions in fines. 

I feel like I'm typing really simple english here? There's only one factory that makes these. Actually, there might be another one that makes something similar that I know for sure isn't grote but the majority of these listing are made at grote.

Grote is also an oem factory. You don't need any qualification to sell on Ali express. I could set up shop and sell these things if I wanted to and I could decal them however I wanted before I shipped them out. Most of the sellers on Ali are just individuals that act as purchasing go-between with the factory.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

That's nice that you disagree. Your anecdote isn't going to convince me, as I, too, work for a company who tries to defend it's IP in China. 

I don't see your point in trying to argue over the fact that the listing I posted was a product from the same builder as the OP's posting. I said that those guitars were being sold as counterfeit Bodens, and people are disagreeing. I think it's silly to disagree, since the evidence is quite clear and the point that these are not counterfeit Strandbergs is contentious at best. It makes it seem to me like you ran out of people with whom to argue or something, so you decided to try to strike up an argument with me. Did I perceive that in error?


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

to me, it only is a counterfeit IF:

- They tried to literally mimic the Strandberg Endur'neck perfectly
- It has a forged "strandberg logo" on the body
- the body shape is an exact 1:1 replica (im not convinced these are)
- they offered multiscale options
- they made their replica version of the bridge and head hardware

my order, technically, does not tick any of these so how is it a counterfeit?
its a brand new guitar design, with completely different hardware closely resembling, but not claiming to be, another design.
Thats it. The builder/store I used intentionally does not advertise these as Strandbergs because A) he isnt a dick and B) they blatantly are not.

Im sorry but any guitarist/Musicians (Ola's actual market) would all clearly know the difference between his actual product and something that looks similar and is built to a much lesser standard.

Whats the difference between the fanned fret Legator strats and the Harley Benton fanned fret strats?
Or Agile fanned frets and Legator?.
Every company is guilty of taking inspiration from someone elses body shape, with minimal adjustments and selling it as their own.

You cant sue the world

EDIT:
This debate reminds me alot of the time when illegally downloading music begun and most big big companies tried their hardest to stop it out of defence of their own "art" etc. And whilst it was admiral, they ultimately failed.

Sometimes you have to bend slightly to ride the wave, rather than stand rigid and get snapped in half.

hence why bands now just want their music "out there" and dont give a shit who doanloads it or not. Because they realised that A) Labels were always taking the most cut from sales anyway even before the digital age, and B) the more people have and live their music, the more likelihood they will make money on merch and ticket sales.


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## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> - the body shape is an exact 1:1 replica (im not convinced these are)



What was the point of this thread then?


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> What was the point of this thread then?


the point of the thread was I wanted a cool looking, cheaper headless guitar to see if i liked the process of headless guitars.
Using them, tuning them etc etc. There is obviously enough similarities with them all to get enough of what you need (knowledge) just by using one.

Being pedantic?, hilarious tbh.

EDIT: And If i gel with them, then I can start saving for a high end headless from a respectable company like Strandberg (Prob the classic with pickguard).


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## narad (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> This debate reminds me alot of the time when illegally downloading music begun and most big big companies tried their hardest to stop it out of defence of their own "art" etc. And whilst it was admiral, they ultimately failed.
> 
> Sometimes you have to bend slightly to ride the wave, rather than stand rigid and get snapped in half.
> 
> hence why bands now just want their music "out there" and dont give a shit who doanloads it or not. Because they realised that A) Labels were always taking the most cut from sales anyway even before the digital age, and B) the more people have and live their music, the more likelihood they will make money on merch and ticket sales.



Which is all illegal. I mean, just because a new distribution mechanism makes enforcing laws impossible, doesn't mean those laws don't exist and that you're not violating them, and that you're not depriving artists of money by pirating their music. I'm not sure this is the best comparison.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> That's nice that you disagree. Your anecdote isn't going to convince me, as I, too, work for a company who tries to defend it's IP in China.
> 
> I don't see your point in trying to argue over the fact that the listing I posted was a product from the same builder as the OP's posting. I said that those guitars were being sold as counterfeit Bodens, and people are disagreeing. I think it's silly to disagree, since the evidence is quite clear and the point that these are not counterfeit Strandbergs is contentious at best. It makes it seem to me like you ran out of people with whom to argue or something, so you decided to try to strike up an argument with me. Did I perceive that in error?



Yes it's really hard to defend your ip if you are a foreign rights holder. That is not the same as there not being any ip protection in China. 

No one is saying that some of these sellers aren't branding these guitars with strandberg decals and attempting to sell them as strandberg. The seller is engaged in counterfeiting and what is counterfeit is the logo and product. The oem is no responsible for that. 

90 percent of new production vacuum tubes come from one factory in China. These get relabeled as a ton of different brands. It's also possible for people to label them as RCA backplates and attempt to sell them that way. The labeling is the deciding factor there. The oem doesn't hold responsibility for that. 

It makes it seem to me like you posted in a forum discussion thread and didn't want any response? Did I perceive that in error? You can just turn off notifications and go away. That's something in your own power to do.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

narad said:


> Which is all illegal. I mean, just because a new distribution mechanism makes enforcing laws impossible, doesn't mean those laws don't exist and that you're not violating them, and that you're not depriving artists of money by pirating their music. I'm not sure this is the best comparison.


the laws should move their goal posts instead to stay relevant with how the world has changed, rather than try to pass themselves off as still relevant in a time when they are not.

Besides, go and look into what stupid laws still exist in this country before jumping on the "its the law" bandwagon.
Pretty sure you can still legally kill a woman on a certain bridge in Scotland once a month or some other nonsense. There is literally whole books published yearly that contain the stupid laws still in effect.


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## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

technomancer said:


> Straight up ripoff of the Strandberg design. Never fear though I'm sure some idiot here will order one and then comment they're, "not that bad."


Just leaving this here


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## narad (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> Just leaving this here



Haha, oh daaaamn



lewis said:


> the laws should move their goal posts instead to stay relevant with how the world has changed, rather than try to pass themselves off as still relevant in a time when they are not.
> 
> Besides, go and look into what stupid laws still exist in this country before jumping on the "its the law" bandwagon.
> Pretty sure you can still legally kill a woman on a certain bridge in Scotland once a month or some other nonsense. There is literally whole books published yearly that contain the stupid laws still in effect.



There are stupid laws but you really shouldn't just leave it to the lawbreakers to decide what laws are stupid. I think we all know we should pay for the music, movies, and games we use.


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## technomancer (Oct 19, 2017)

narad said:


> Haha, oh daaaamn



To be fair that was about the Grote copies in another thread so I did not specifically call lewis an idiot


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> to me, it only is a counterfeit IF:
> 
> - They tried to literally mimic the Strandberg Endur'neck perfectly
> - It has a forged "strandberg logo" on the body
> ...



Good points, of course.

I think the pivotal part of the discussion is the third point you brought up. I wasn't trying to say that the actual guitar you purchased was a counterfeit, only that it's debatable. This particular builder, in the past, *has* made products that I would consider counterfeit, that others considered counterfeit, and there are plenty of folks out there who still consider these to be counterfeit, as well as plenty who do not consider them such, thus, it's debatable. I think that, in the past, the debate was pretty much settled that these guitars from this specific builder were counterfeit, but, some changes have been made since then. It's a matter of whether the changes made were about skirting the issue or about actually trying to make their own mark through improvements and/or creative license. But this is all obviously rather contentious at the moment.



diagrammatiks said:


> Yes it's really hard to defend your ip if you are a foreign rights holder. That is not the same as there not being any ip protection in China.
> 
> No one is saying that some of these sellers aren't branding these guitars with strandberg decals and attempting to sell them as strandberg. The seller is engaged in counterfeiting and what is counterfeit is the logo and product. The oem is no responsible for that.
> 
> ...



So...I'm not trying to put words into your mouth with this, because I'm not clear as to how you are approaching this.

But, to be clear and frank, if a manufacturer is licensed to build a copy of something, (say, a vacuum tube for RCA), that's a completely different universe of IP control making it under the license as it is making the same product after the license has been pulled or lapsed, or working around the license. I think that ought to go without saying, but comparing an OEM building Bodens for Strandberg to the same OEM building Bodens to sell direct without applying the logo decal is morally reprehensible. Period. Now, is that what's going on here or not? If so, then there is a problem, if not, then either this is not the OEM who builds Bodens or this is a different design from the Boden.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Good points, of course.
> 
> I think the pivotal part of the discussion is the third point you brought up. I wasn't trying to say that the actual guitar you purchased was a counterfeit, only that it's debatable. This particular builder, in the past, *has* made products that I would consider counterfeit, that others considered counterfeit, and there are plenty of folks out there who still consider these to be counterfeit, as well as plenty who do not consider them such, thus, it's debatable. I think that, in the past, the debate was pretty much settled that these guitars from this specific builder were counterfeit, but, some changes have been made since then. It's a matter of whether the changes made were about skirting the issue or about actually trying to make their own mark through improvements and/or creative license. But this is all obviously rather contentious at the moment.
> 
> ...



The oem vacuum tube point has nothing to do with whether or not they have a license from RCA. You can buy unlabeled vacuum tubes from that factory. I as a seller can label these as rca and try to sell them as nos blackplates for 500 each. Who is responsible for the counterfeiting in this instance?

The point of contention here is whether or not these are bodens. The grote factory makes grotes. Nothing leaves that factory labeled with Strandberg. Is the shape the only thing that makes the boden a boden?

What constitutes the builder in this case? the factory that makes the guitar or the seller that decals it?


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

Obviously the shape is not what makes it a Boden, but counterfeiting is not about making a functional replica of something, it's about making an item that intentionally confuses the buyer into thinking it's something else.

In this specific case, @lewis knows what is being sold, so that's not the issue. However, there are examples of these guitars being sold AS STRANDBERGS. If I sell a Crestwood tele copy as a Fender Tele, it makes it a counterfeit. You with me up to this point?

So, is the item a counterfeit when the original manufacturer makes it, or is it a counterfeit when the third party seller sells it as something it's not? Well, that's a side discussion independent of whether or not the item is counterfeit at all. If we are arguing over when it became a counterfeit, we are already assuming it's a counterfeit anyway.

I do think it's arguable as to whether or not these guitars are really counterfeit. Probably most people are smart enough to realize that it's not a real Strandberg. But, I bet there are at least some people out there who would foolishly make the mistake. If that happens and the seller intended for it to happen, then, well, it's a counterfeit.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

Right but I think everyone is in agreement that if you labeled these as strandberg then they are counterfeit. 
Actually the test criterion isn't even that high. If I labeled a tele as a strandberg and tried to sell it it would also be counterfeit. 
Is it still counterfeit if it's not labeled as strandberg though? Is your crestwood a counterfeit if you sell it as a crestwood? It's definitely a derivative product. But that's legally different then counterfeit. 

The grote has glaring obvious differences to a boden.


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> Right but I think everyone is in agreement that if you labeled these as strandberg then they are counterfeit.
> Actually the test criterion isn't even that high. If I labeled a tele as a strandberg and tried to sell it it would also be counterfeit.
> Is it still counterfeit if it's not labeled as strandberg though? Is your crestwood a counterfeit if you sell it as a crestwood? It's definitely a derivative product. But that's legally different then counterfeit.
> 
> The grote has glaring obvious differences to a boden.


...yet I posted proof that the grotes are still sold as bodens.

And no, the Crestwood not sold as anything other than what it is is not a "counterfeit." It doesn't make it not a "copy," though, and it doesn't make it "morally right" or "morally wrong." But, it technically becomes a "counterfeit" the moment someone is tricked into buying it under the pretense that it's something else. If the Crestwood tele was sold as a Boden OS6, then it'd still, technically, be a counterfeit, the moment someone actually thought they were buying a real Boden.

My point all along has been that there are two sides to this. These guitars, to me, wouldn't pass for a real Strandberg, but, to someone else, they might, and I see how they are being labeled that way and how people might fall for that.

We could try to make some sort of a distinction about whether a reasonable person would be fooled or not, but then we get into the sticky mess of defining what a "reasonable person" is.

Also going back to my original point, if the OP gets the guitar and finds out it's not actually a playable instrument, then it's flat out a counterfeit, since it's being sold as a playable guitar.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> ...yet I posted proof that the grotes are still sold as bodens.
> 
> And no, the Crestwood not sold as anything other than what it is is not a "counterfeit." It doesn't make it not a "copy," though, and it doesn't make it "morally right" or "morally wrong." But, it technically becomes a "counterfeit" the moment someone is tricked into buying it under the pretense that it's something else. If the Crestwood tele was sold as a Boden OS6, then it'd still, technically, be a counterfeit, the moment someone actually thought they were buying a real Boden.
> 
> ...



Yeah the people stupidly labelling these as Strandbergs are complete bellends.
Infact, I intentionally would not have ordered this if all the Aliexpress shops/builders were doing that.
Plus it seemed like other than getting the guitar with a tremolo (i asked) or a flloyd type bridge, any custom options were do-able which would then even further separate it from a strandberg.

the brand new styles in are him trying to take the design and better it as mentioned earlier. For exampe they are neck through bodies and look even further away from a real strandberg so it seems to me this particular dude/shop, is really trying to get away from that strandberg label.

here is his brand new styles. No way anyone mistakes these for boden strandbergs imo and they even clearly say "Grote" too -


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> ...yet I posted proof that the grotes are still sold as bodens.
> 
> And no, the Crestwood not sold as anything other than what it is is not a "counterfeit." It doesn't make it not a "copy," though, and it doesn't make it "morally right" or "morally wrong." But, it technically becomes a "counterfeit" the moment someone is tricked into buying it under the pretense that it's something else. If the Crestwood tele was sold as a Boden OS6, then it'd still, technically, be a counterfeit, the moment someone actually thought they were buying a real Boden.
> 
> ...



right but again...that doesn't make all the grotes counterfeit if that's the standard we are using. The listings and guitars labeled strandberg are definitely counterfeit. If you sold your crestwood as a fender that doesn't automatically mean that ever crestwood is now being sold as a fender. I don't think we disagree that the sellers selling grotes labeled as strandbergs are counterfeiting and selling counterfeits.

but legators are also sold as playable guitars...


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> right but again...that doesn't make all the grotes counterfeit if that's the standard we are using. The listings and guitars labeled strandberg are definitely counterfeit. If you sold your crestwood as a fender that doesn't automatically mean that ever crestwood is now being sold as a fender. I don't think we disagree that the sellers selling grotes labeled as strandbergs are counterfeiting and selling counterfeits.
> 
> but *legators are also sold as playable guitars*...


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## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

First thing I thought of:






Anyone else remember when Strandbergs didn't have branding on them?


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> right but again...that doesn't make all the grotes counterfeit if that's the standard we are using. The listings and guitars labeled strandberg are definitely counterfeit. If you sold your crestwood as a fender that doesn't automatically mean that ever crestwood is now being sold as a fender. I don't think we disagree that the sellers selling grotes labeled as strandbergs are counterfeiting and selling counterfeits.
> 
> but legators are also sold as playable guitars...


The big distinction here, though, is that the number of grotes being sold online (ebay, alibaba, etc.) as grotes and the number sold online as whatever it's copying are the same order of magnitude, whereas the counter-example is thusfar hypothetical.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> First thing I thought of:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



like seriously?.
Everything about that guitar screams pure build quality sex whereas the Grotes are blatantly different and scream "budget build"?

I just personally do not remotely see the similarities other than the body outline which has already been discussed. 
Head piece completely different, bridge hardware completely different, neck completely different, fretboard cut completely different, frets blatantly different, toggle switch completely different. Wood/finish completely different, pickups completely different etc


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## narad (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> Anyone else remember when Strandbergs didn't have branding on them?



Almost like the shape alone was enough to identify it as a .strandberg*


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

narad said:


> Almost like the shape alone was enough to identify it as a .strandberg*


just like how I see super strat shape and think............... every guitar company ever?


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## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> just like how I see super strat shape and think............... every guitar company ever?


But therein lies the rub.

It's like how do you dress up in a costume as Groucho Marx? Glasses, suitcoat with tails, bushy eyebrows, cigar. How do you dress up as Edward Norton? Generic look, generic clothes, generic hairstyle. To be what we colloquially call a trademark image, something has to be distinctive. If I go around playing in a band with kabuki makeup that *just happens to* make us look almost exactly like KISS, and I explain that it's a coincidence, people are going to throw eggs at us. If we dress up exactly like a generic metalcore band, then no one will bat an eye.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

bostjan said:


> But therein lies the rub.
> 
> It's like how do you dress up in a costume as Groucho Marx? Glasses, suitcoat with tails, bushy eyebrows, cigar. How do you dress up as Edward Norton? Generic look, generic clothes, generic hairstyle. To be what we colloquially call a trademark image, something has to be distinctive. If I go around playing in a band with kabuki makeup that *just happens to* make us look almost exactly like KISS, and I explain that it's a coincidence, people are going to throw eggs at us. If we dress up exactly like a generic metalcore band, then no one will bat an eye.


your interpretation of what "generic" anything looks like is completely subjective as is comparing one guitar (grote) to another (strandberg)

hence why there is said debate and why also, I and the builder, have done nothing wrong.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

also to add, at what point do we all agree to disagree in here?
12 pages of backwards and forward about it haha.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

You've said you bought this guitar as a cheap way to try a Strandberg type guitar. It's not that cheap a way to do it and you won't learn much.

You said it was to see if you like the shape. You've said you don't think the shape will be exact. So that's a waste of time.

I'm happy to stop arguing when you stop making excuses for shamelessly buying a cheap knock off.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> your interpretation of what "generic" anything looks like is completely subjective as is comparing one guitar (grote) to another (strandberg)
> 
> hence why there is said debate and why also, I and the builder, have done nothing wrong.



But it's absolutely not, though. It's entirely objective to identify the visual features common in many different guitar designs and to identify visual features that are specific to one specific guitar design. There's not really any handwaving going on here. The strat is a design that is currently non-specific. The double cutaway, rounded bottom, forearm contour, control layout, ... it's all stuff that's not at all distinguishable from one manufacturer to another. The Boden is purposefully a distinctive design. Such might not be the case in 2027, but it is now, so it's a very fair point in this case.

Seriously, I don't know why people are trying to contend that these headless Grotes do not look like Strandbergs. Would you be able to name any non-Chinese manufacturer making non-Strandbergs that share the same distinctive shape?

This is what it is, and we all know what it is. It's a copy of a Strandberg.

Whatever goes beyond that, I can agree at this point in time, is debatable. But implying that anyone would look at this shape and think "generic electric guitar" the same that they would looking at a strat copy is just plain stretching the argument too far from reason.


----------



## xzacx (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean ibanez sure as hell didn't set out with the intention of making a better les paul. They set out to make affordable guitars for their home market given the super high import costs of usa guitars.



Exactly, and that's not OK either. Why should they get to monetize Gibson's work? What's your point?



bostjan said:


> I think it's absolutely relevant to how scammy this whole deal ends up being. If "counterfeit" means that it's copied in such as way as to fool a person into fraudulently believing it's a real product, then the instrument turning out to not be functional would prove that fraud was the primary intent, thus counterfeit.
> From what I see, which is not the whole picture, this looks like it's a product intended to fool people into thinking its another product. I think it's fair to say that Ibanez also crossed the line early on, as their Les Paul copies used a headstock inlay and even a font on the "Ibanez" to look like a Gibson. But they paid the legal price for doing so.



I actually think it's more about the pricing than whether it's good or not (although they're often related). Whether it's good to not just determine's how bad the OP got ripped off. And since he's done this knowingly, he only ripped himself off - which, to his credit, he hasn't denied. It's about taking someone else's ideas/work/R&D and undercutting their price. That's why it's different for a company like Suhr, for example. The point of buying a Suhr isn't to get the look of a Fender for a 10th of the price. It's to get something that's premium to what Fender produces.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

tgp thinks suhr is a cheaper way to get into a fender custom shop level instrument. potato. puhtahta.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> You've said you bought this guitar as a cheap way to try a Strandberg type guitar. It's not that cheap a way to do it and you won't learn much.
> 
> You said it was to see if you like the shape. You've said you don't think the shape will be exact. So that's a waste of time.
> 
> I'm happy to stop arguing when you stop making excuses for shamelessly buying a cheap knock off.


man you are so salty. Its not exact measurement wise imo but obviously is close ENOUGH to gauge what that shape would be like. But overall its more the weight (or lack of) and the whole idea of tuning/restrings on a headless plus having no headstock (i play alot of stuff on and around the 1st fret) that I wanted to gauge.
Im not making excuses up whatsoever.
People like you are just genuinely doing my head in. Just how many times must you try to tell me in your opinion "im wrong"?. We get it, you rate your own opinion and morals!?. Good for you?

Want a cookie?


----------



## narad (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> Want a cookie?



It's okay - I've got this hockey puck that's generally the same size and shape as a cookie so I practically have one already.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

@StevenC also If i had been given $10 every time you moaned about me and my actions in here, I could have just bought a real strandberg.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

narad said:


> It's okay - I've got this hockey puck that's generally the same size and shape as a cookie so I practically have one already.



wait is your hockey puck a counterfeit cookie or is your cookie a counterfeit hockey puck.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

alright guys...what constitutes enough difference. discuss.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 19, 2017)

xzacx said:


> Exactly, and that's not OK either. Why should they get to monetize Gibson's work? What's your point?
> 
> 
> 
> I actually think it's more about the pricing than whether it's good or not (although they're often related). Whether it's good to not just determine's how bad the OP got ripped off. And since he's done this knowingly, he only ripped himself off - which, to his credit, he hasn't denied. It's about taking someone else's ideas/work/R&D and undercutting their price. That's why it's different for a company like Suhr, for example. The point of buying a Suhr isn't to get the look of a Fender for a 10th of the price. It's to get something that's premium to what Fender produces.



That's another aspect of this I haven't even gotten into, because, to me, it's a little more complex. AFAIK, Ola has only trademarked his logo and patented the neck design. Without explicit legal stakes claimed on the other things, like the distinctive shape, IDK how you can really firmly draw any conclusions. But personally, I agree. If I spend four-five years perfecting an ergonomic guitar body shape and other innovations to make a cool product, then a couple years after hitting the market with it, some guy in China was undercutting my prices offering something that was an unapologetic copy of my work, I would be pissed, and there is no doubt that it'd be a serious blow to my career. So, do we punish Ola for not trademarking his body shape, or what?



diagrammatiks said:


> wait is your hockey puck a counterfeit cookie or is your cookie a counterfeit hockey puck.



It's interesting to me that you appear to be reiterating his joke in less subtle terms, thus making a counterfeit joke.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> alright guys...what constitutes enough difference. discuss.



The head piece seems a counterfeit copy of a strandberg but nothing else about that guitar gives a Boden strandberg vibe at all.
Its quite nice actually. Shape wise reminds me of the BC rich Bitch
Maybe its a counterfeit BC Rich?


----------



## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

I mean, it's got a very different nut area to a Strandberg, made of mahogany, doesn't mention chambering and has very different hardware. Ola goes to extreme lengths to make his guitars lighter, he has a whole blog on the development of the guitar. This guitar is strung completely differently to a Strandberg and the tuning is a solid 90 degrees adrift. This, functionally, is nothing like a Strandberg.

If you had $10 for all of my comments, you'd have 9 $10 Strandberg knock offs.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> I mean, it's got a very different nut area to a Strandberg, *made of mahogany*, *doesn't mention chambering* and *has very different hardware*. Ola goes to extreme lengths to make his guitars lighter, he has a whole blog on the development of the guitar. This guitar is strung completely differently to a Strandberg and the tuning is a solid 90 degrees adrift. This, functionally, is nothing like a Strandberg.
> 
> If you had *$10 for all of my comments, you'd have a lot of $10 Strandberg knock offs*.



Exactly like my ordered guitar then.

and yet none of them would say "Strandberg" on them or have his neck design, the only 2 things he got copyrighted? 

oh dear.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

no honestly can i buy this without being yelled at?












why or why not.


----------



## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> Exactly like my ordered guitar then.
> 
> and yet none of them would say "Strandberg" on them or have his neck design, the only 2 things he got copyrighted?
> 
> oh dear.


http://guitarworks.thestrandbergs.com/2013/03/01/design-licensing-permissions/

Don't make me do all the legwork.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

really is getting to the point where multiple posters in here are genuinely just wasting their time, breath, oxygen and energy keep going over and over the same point.

Guess what... I still bought it, its still on its way, I still dont accept your argument that this is a counterfeit anything and your disagreeing with me really makes no difference to me in the slightest.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> no honestly can i buy this without being yelled at?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Screw it, Im going to order one at some point. It looks great.


----------



## xzacx (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> tgp thinks suhr is a cheaper way to get into a fender custom shop level instrument. potato. puhtahta.



I'm no fan of Suhr myself - just used it as a widely known example. Maybe D'Pergo would have been a better option. 




bostjan said:


> That's another aspect of this I haven't even gotten into, because, to me, it's a little more complex. AFAIK, Ola has only trademarked his logo and patented the neck design. Without explicit legal stakes claimed on the other things, like the distinctive shape, IDK how you can really firmly draw any conclusions. But personally, I agree. If I spend four-five years perfecting an ergonomic guitar body shape and other innovations to make a cool product, then a couple years after hitting the market with it, some guy in China was undercutting my prices offering something that was an unapologetic copy of my work, I would be pissed, and there is no doubt that it'd be a serious blow to my career. So, do we punish Ola for not trademarking his body shape, or what?



I don't know enough about the legal aspects of this stuff competently comment on it. When I give my opinions, I'm only speaking from a point of honoring and respecting the creators. The legality doesn't change my perceptions. And being legal doesn't mean it's right either. Just my philosophy on which instruments I'd buy or that interest me. 



diagrammatiks said:


> no honestly can i buy this without being yelled at?
> 
> why or why not.



You can buy whatever you want. But if you make a post about it and people start giving opinions in opposition to yours, don't get upset.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> http://guitarworks.thestrandbergs.com/2013/03/01/design-licensing-permissions/
> 
> Don't make me do all the legwork.


I was just repeating what I thought I had read earlier in this thread?.
Im sure some posters were saying it was just his brand name and neck that was sorted.


----------



## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

xzacx said:


> I'm no fan of Suhr myself - just used it as a widely known example. Maybe D'Pergo would have been a better option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



yeah telling me once?. fine.

Telling us repeatedly on every page multiple times to reach 12 pages of completely pointless backwards and forwards?

not fine


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

xzacx said:


> I'm no fan of Suhr myself - just used it as a widely known example. Maybe D'Pergo would have been a better option.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i'm not going to get upset broski. i have enough money to do things for the lols when I want to.

I actually also had to do a double take because...I'm pretty sure everyone thinks varberg when they see that guitar...but after looking at it for 5 minutes it's not really a varberg at all.

no one wants to discuss the finer points of guitar derivation concerning the varberg thingy


----------



## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> really is getting to the point where multiple posters in here are genuinely just wasting their time, breath, oxygen and energy keep going over and over the same point.
> 
> Guess what... I still bought it, its still on its way, I still dont accept your argument that this is a counterfeit anything and your disagreeing with me really makes no difference to me in the slightest.


So, genuinely, the link you linked as the link you ordered from listed the guitar as having a koa veneer. Is it koa? Wouldn't that very simply make it counterfeit if it's not?

And again, this'd be a different story if you were buying the guitar out of morbid curiosity. But you keep saying you aren't.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

StevenC said:


> So, genuinely, the link you linked as the link you ordered from listed the guitar as having a koa veneer. Is it koa? Wouldn't that very simply make it counterfeit if it's not?
> 
> And again, this'd be a different story if you were buying the guitar out of morbid curiosity. But you keep saying you aren't.


haha its funny you say that, because there is specifically a post from me within this thread that blatantly uses the term "Morbid curiosity".
So


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

@StevenC from page 5 - 



lewis said:


> this is basically my viewpoint haha. At this point its becoming morbid curiosity


----------



## Chokey Chicken (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> Screw it, Im going to order one at some point. It looks great.



Really? Looks like garbage to me. That bridge pickup is a mile away from the bridge.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Really? Looks like garbage to me. That bridge pickup is a mile away from the bridge.


was being facetious bud out of frustration.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 19, 2017)

clearly it's got some issues.


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## lewis (Oct 19, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> clearly it's got some issues.


neck and middle pickup only haha

most of these shops will take custom suggestions so any weird garbage could be rectified. But still.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 19, 2017)

Come on guys, they aren't able to replicate the proprietary hardware, so its not a copy... geez /purple


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## StevenC (Oct 19, 2017)

lewis said:


> haha its funny you say that, because there is specifically a post from me within this thread that blatantly uses the term "Morbid curiosity".
> So


Ok, you got me there. And that'd be fine if there weren't a page of sob story before that. And that'd be fine if you weren't upgrading the fingerboard and trying to upgrade to a trem.


----------



## Hollowway (Oct 20, 2017)

Dineley said:


> Come on guys, they aren't able to replicate the proprietary hardware, so its not a copy... geez /purple


Not sure if serious, but they CAN copy the hardware. They just aren’t. It’s cheaper to not do the tooling to copy it. Cutting wood is easier. But, come on, it’s plainly evident what they are selling is a strandberg design. Would it fool someone into thinking it’s an actual strandberg? It doesn’t matter. The point is, Ola spend time and money designing the shape. These guys just took a short cut and copied it. So, for anyone who is confused on the issue - if you spent a bunch of time working on something, and then someone copied it, and sold a cheaper version for less, you’d be ok? If you worked hard on something for work or school, and someone stole it at the last minute and turned it in with their name on it, would you be ok? If the answer is yes, and you truly believe that there should be no ownership of anything by individuals, then that is fine. But I think that a lot of people aren’t true communists, and instead believe that the rules are to be interpreted in whatever way benefits them at the time.

Now, no particular hate toward Lewis. I agree with him in damn near every thread we’re in, but on this one I’m just in the opposing camp. But he’s got his reasons, and while I’ll continue to proselytize my viewpoint on this, I don’t mean to sound like I’m just constantly popping in here to be negative. I’m just suuuuuuper pro-arts, and am dismayed that art is not respected in general. But I get REALLY irritated when I feel like artists themselves aren’t respecting the art of others. It also worries me how little China, it’s people and government, cares about IP. As the world’s economy becomes more fluid, it’s definitely something we are all going to have to worry about.


----------



## Shoeless_jose (Oct 20, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Not sure if serious, but they CAN copy the hardware. They just aren’t. It’s cheaper to not do the tooling to copy it. Cutting wood is easier. But, come on, it’s plainly evident what they are selling is a strandberg design. Would it fool someone into thinking it’s an actual strandberg? It doesn’t matter. The point is, Ola spend time and money designing the shape. These guys just took a short cut and copied it. So, for anyone who is confused on the issue - if you spent a bunch of time working on something, and then someone copied it, and sold a cheaper version for less, you’d be ok? If you worked hard on something for work or school, and someone stole it at the last minute and turned it in with their name on it, would you be ok? If the answer is yes, and you truly believe that there should be no ownership of anything by individuals, then that is fine. But I think that a lot of people aren’t true communists, and instead believe that the rules are to be interpreted in whatever way benefits them at the time.
> 
> Now, no particular hate toward Lewis. I agree with him in damn near every thread we’re in, but on this one I’m just in the opposing camp. But he’s got his reasons, and while I’ll continue to proselytize my viewpoint on this, I don’t mean to sound like I’m just constantly popping in here to be negative. I’m just suuuuuuper pro-arts, and am dismayed that art is not respected in general. But I get REALLY irritated when I feel like artists themselves aren’t respecting the art of others. It also worries me how little China, it’s people and government, cares about IP. As the world’s economy becomes more fluid, it’s definitely something we are all going to have to worry about.




definitely sarcasm, and my point was basically what you said, cutting wood is easy/cheap, sourcing/making accurate hardware, not so cost effective.


----------



## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

What I want to know is why is THIS Ok:







But Lewis' guitar is somehow taboo for aping the Strandberg aesthetic. The level of approximation between a Boden and Lewis' incoming guitar are approximately the same as what you see above.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

StevenC said:


> Ok, you got me there. And that'd be fine if there weren't a page of sob story before that. And that'd be fine if you weren't upgrading the fingerboard and trying to upgrade to a trem.


This post is completely idiotic in about every way.
The board was changed to ebony on suggestion of people in here just so it didnt get stuck in customs for months on end. I spoke to HMRC and even their department suggested doing it.

Sob story?. What because i cant just walk into a shop and say he is £1300 thanks bye?.
Look dude i honestly think you should stop posting in here. Others have made their points in a way that at least doesnt come across as personal digs. Yours are worded in such a way that seen personal.
Labelling my honest post about lack of funds to buy a real one straight up, as a sob story is just a complete low blow tbh. Dont see how getting closer to bluring the line between debate and online bullying, is really fair or warranted. You have made your point 50 times over and like i said after the 1st bunch. You wont agree with my actions and clearly just want to argue. There is no point going over it repetedly. What is your end goal exactly?. Page after page of completely pointless backwards and forwards where you just target me. Think its time you go elsewhere.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> What I want to know is why is THIS Ok:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly. People just want to pick and choose when this BS moral pat on the back applies to them.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

@Chokey Chicken, @diagrammatiks 

brand new review of the earlier posted headless (two completely different shades of wood made up the body haha) -


----------



## Dcm81 (Oct 20, 2017)

It is NOT a counterfit guitar. That is NOT a matter of opinion. It is not trying to copy/replicate a Strandberg 1:1 to fool people into thinking it's the real deal hence: NOT a counterfit!!

I think the most flak is coming because it's a "copy" of the Strandberg body shape. If it was a copy of a Les Paul or a Strat or a Flying V nobody would give a damn. Not exactly sure where these completely skewed morals come from but my interpretation is that Gibson and Fender are HUGE, established companies making big money and other companies have been copying their body shapes for decades. It has become the norm and is basically accepted by all.
Ola, on the other hand, is just one man building a new original body shape. I think more people (especially here) feel more of a personal connection to him or want to support and see him succeed, instead of China cloners (although this isn't a clone  making a profit off of his design. If a LP gets copied, most won't give sh!t because Gibson is raking in the cash anyway....

Suhr and Anderson, IMO, are blatant replicas of a Strat but so many here LOVE them........why the discrepancy??


----------



## StevenC (Oct 20, 2017)

Look man, I don't mean to say you're being illegitimate about your financial situation, but I don't think spending this amount of money on something with a very high chance of being worthless makes financial sense. That was my first post here. But you've gone to strange lengths to disagree with me, but terrorism isn't a good financial argument. By the sound of it, we've had quite a few safe, normal days in London lately. You tried to excuse your purchase by saying minimum wage in the UK is so low, despite being one of the highest in the world. Now you're trying to justify stealing other people's IP, I'm not ok with that. 

Sob story, as I used it, is a means to gain sympathy. Sympathy which, as I see it, you were using to distract from the moral dubiousness of the situation. I'm truly sorry you can't buy a Strandberg on a whim. I didn't buy mine on a whim, and I was really nervous I might not like some aspects of it. Now, this was long before people were ripping of Strandbergs, so that wasn't an option for me, and the starting price for a guitar was a lot higher. But the first time I played a Strandberg it didn't cost me £350, either. I'm pretty sure the second time didn't either, and that was travelling the whole way to Messe.

You seem to want this guitar more than you want to make financially conscious decisions in an effort to get a Strandberg.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

StevenC said:


> Look man, I don't mean to say you're being illegitimate about your financial situation, but I don't think spending this amount of money on something with a very high chance of being worthless makes financial sense. That was my first post here. But you've gone to strange lengths to disagree with me, but terrorism isn't a good financial argument. By the sound of it, we've had quite a few safe, normal days in London lately. You tried to excuse your purchase by saying minimum wage in the UK is so low, despite being one of the highest in the world. Now you're trying to justify stealing other people's IP, I'm not ok with that.
> 
> Sob story, as I used it, is a means to gain sympathy. Sympathy which, as I see it, you were using to distract from the moral dubiousness of the situation. I'm truly sorry you can't buy a Strandberg on a whim. I didn't buy mine on a whim, and I was really nervous I might not like some aspects of it. Now, this was long before people were ripping of Strandbergs, so that wasn't an option for me, and the starting price for a guitar was a lot higher. But the first time I played a Strandberg it didn't cost me £350, either. I'm pretty sure the second time didn't either, and that was travelling the whole way to Messe.
> 
> You seem to want this guitar more than you want to make financially conscious decisions in an effort to get a Strandberg.


and as I said long ago, all that interpretation into my situation from you, being subjective, should be limited to just 1 post.

Why are we STILL going?. You have basically just repeated yourself now umpteen times. I get it, I understand your points. What you "think" i was doing based off the things I said, are completely wrong but its your opinion. Fine.

Now will this be finally, the last time we hear this?.
I just seriously want this thread to only be about the guitar I ordered. Ive already admitted multiple times in here it could be complete shit so ive lost £350.
What more do you want from me ffs


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

Dcm81 said:


> It is NOT a counterfit guitar. That is NOT a matter of opinion. It is not trying to copy/replicate a Strandberg 1:1 to fool people into thinking it's the real deal hence: NOT a counterfit!!
> 
> I think the most flak is coming because it's a "copy" of the Strandberg body shape. If it was a copy of a Les Paul or a Strat or a Flying V nobody would give a damn. Not exactly sure where these completely skewed morals come from but my interpretation is that Gibson and Fender are HUGE, established companies making big money and other companies have been copying their body shapes for decades. It has become the norm and is basically accepted by all.
> Ola, on the other hand, is just one man building a new original body shape. I think more people (especially here) feel more of a personal connection to him or want to support and see him succeed, instead of China cloners (although this isn't a clone  making a profit off of his design. If a LP gets copied, most won't give sh!t because Gibson is raking in the cash anyway....
> ...



agree 100%. Its annoying as shit tbh.

If anything, the bigger companies getting away with it should be considered worse in peoples eyes imo. Not sure how it isnt.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

for anyone interested, here was a measuring picture I asked him to take before it was shipped -


----------



## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> What I want to know is why is THIS Ok:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Zombie strawman keeps getting erected back up, yet this was already determined to not be okay.




Dcm81 said:


> It is NOT a counterfit guitar. *That is NOT a matter of opinion.* It is not trying to copy/replicate a Strandberg 1:1 to fool people into thinking it's the real deal hence: NOT a counterfit!!
> 
> I think the most flak is coming because it's a "copy" of the Strandberg body shape. If it was a copy of a Les Paul or a Strat or a Flying V nobody would give a damn. Not exactly sure where these completely skewed morals come from but my interpretation is that Gibson and Fender are HUGE, established companies making big money and other companies have been copying their body shapes for decades. It has become the norm and is basically accepted by all.
> Ola, on the other hand, is just one man building a new original body shape. I think more people (especially here) feel more of a personal connection to him or want to support and see him succeed, instead of China cloners (although this isn't a clone  making a profit off of his design. If a LP gets copied, most won't give sh!t because Gibson is raking in the cash anyway....
> ...



"...not a matter of opinion...I think...IMO"

Come on man, you can do better.

I already definitively proved that these are being listed by Chinese sellers as actual Strandbergs. The builder might not be involved in the way those listings are worded, which is really the only gray area here in terms of counterfeiting, but that's a pretty narrow distinction to make, which is why this whole thing is being contested and argued back and forth by both sides.

The only LP copy I ever bought was licensed by Gibson. But again, accusing people of a double standard based solely off of assumptions is pretty lame. 

Whether it's trying to copy or not is pretty speculative. Let's stick to facts:

1. These guitars objectively resemble Strandbergs, but have clear differences.
2. These guitars are being sold as Strandbergs, but only a portion of the time. (So, by my assessment, it is a matter of opinion as to whether this particular piece could be considered counterfeit or not - it's as far from a clear cut yes as it is from a clear cut no)
3. This manufacturer is widely known for making copies of Strandbergs, as well as nearly exact aesthetic copies of Fenders, Gibsons, Rickenbackers, etc. (So when you defend them for this, but attack companies who copy the Les Paul, Strat, and Flying V, you are triply attacking the same company you are defending, since they do all three of those as well.)
4. We do not yet know for sure how functional this particular guitar is. (Lewis is the most active and frequently contributing member here to buy one of these, and these guitars have changed since the previous review, so his assessment will be key in understanding whether these are still a scam or if they are making a legitimate effort into building a guitar rather than a decoration that looks like a guitar.)

So, maybe you are right that this is not a counterfeit, but rather, some sort of unique piece that borrowed its aesthetics heavily from the Boden, but created something new and different. Or maybe this is a hastily-thrown-together copy of another guitar for the purpose of scamming a quick buck off of an unsuspecting buyer, and the guitar only has distinct differences from a Boden because it was hastily designed. Or, most likely, somewhere in between, in which case this argument will probably never be settled.

I mean, with this company's track record, you cannot really fault anyone too much for leaning toward the scammier conclusion.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2017)

@bostjan 
how much would a builder have to change to make it ok?
That guitar I posted up there above clearly just traced the outline of the varberg and changed the horns a little. but the missing 3 layer body and stepped lower end clearly make it different? asking for science.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

lewis said:


> for anyone interested, here was a measuring picture I asked him to take before it was shipped -


Honestly, this looks like the best one of these I've seen. Pickup routes look okay, scale length looks okay, frets look okay (from what I can tell). The only thing that looks maybe a tad off is the fretboard overhang on the low E toward the higher frets, maybe it's just the camera angle (what most people say in cases like these, although I'm not sure how relevant that is), but the edge of the bass side of the fretboard isn't a straight line. I'm not sure that's even really a problem for playability on it's own, but it would concern me if it were my guitar.



diagrammatiks said:


> @bostjan
> how much would a builder have to change to make it ok?
> That guitar I posted up there above clearly just traced the outline of the varberg and changed the horns a little. but the missing 3 layer body and stepped lower end clearly make it different? asking for science.



It's all about perception, though. If people think it's the same, then there's a probalem. The more widespread it is that people think it's the same, the worse the problem is. So whether any shape of anything is considered the same as another shape, in general, depends on more than just a handful of factors:

1. With how many distinct shapes is the observer familiar?
2. Is the shape in question similar to more than one of those distinct shapes?
3. How complex is the shape?
4. How many characteristics are there about the shape that the observer can quantifiably identify?
5. How common is the similar shape?

If you take a circle, and flatten one end of it, you've only altered one thing about the circle. But since:

1. Most people are familiar with several round shapes, as well as regular polygon shapes that are vaguely circular but with flat edges.
2. The roundness makes the new shape look like a circle, but also makes it look like, say, an octogon with all but two corners rounded.
3. The shape is extremely simple.
4. The shape really only has two distinct characteristics.
5. Circles and octogons are extremely common.

The shape is usually identified as being unique to the circle.

On the other hand, if you took an irregular 21-pointed star and nipped off one point:

1. Most people are not familiar with irregular high-order star shapes.
2. The shape is similar to other irregular 21-pointed star shapes, just with the nipped-off point being different lengths.
3. The shape is moderately complex, but still basically trivial.
4. The shape has a few distinct characteristics.
5. Irregular high-order star shapes are not at all common.

People, generally, will identify is as a different shape when the two are next to one another, but less likely to identify them thusly if shown separately.

Now take a shape like the map of Indonesia, and remove one of the little islands, and anybody without intimate knowledge of Indonesia won't even know the difference.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

lewis said:


> for anyone interested, here was a measuring picture I asked him to take before it was shipped -



So the start of the bridge place comes in at what? around 63.8cm or something?. Which is what? roughly 25.2inches. 
So including the room going back that the saddles will have, does that conclude that they can be intonated properly? Im assuming it will do which is good news as some of these sold a short time ago (I think from a different seller but we worked out they are all built in the same place right?) had the bridge in an odd position which meant even the saddle as far forward as it would go, didnt line up properly to the 25.5 scale length and therefore didnt intonate properly as mentioned in this video - 



so thats at least another tick so far:?


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

@bostjan i believe I have 3 shots including that one that may show some of the fretboard things abit more clearer if you want me to post those too?}

might clear up any "angle" type camera tricks


----------



## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Zombie strawman keeps getting erected back up, yet this was already determined to not be okay



I'm calling bullshit on your high horse, dude. If want to have ANY semblance of integrity, your next post had better be calling out SSO's much beloved friend Kurt Zentmaier of Rondo Music, and anyone that has ever bought an instrument of any sort from him, because the one on the left is an Epi Tribute LP (and thus an authorized LP), while the instrument on the right is an Agile AL-3000. LP copies were and are Rondo's "bread and butter", and what allowed them to grow and offer all the stuff they have that SSO as a whole just absolutely LOVES about Rondo. Oh, and Rondo's Chinese SX/Hadean/multiple other offerings can probably be had from the same OEM with "whatever" custom waterslide decal you wish on the headstock.

Lewis' incoming guitar is in function not one iota different from buying an AL-3000 instead of an honest to God LP, and that is the truth and heart of the matter. 


There's just WAY too many "know it all" types in this thread that are overeager to shit on Lewis from a purely imaginary point of moral superiority.......


----------



## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

Double post.....


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> I'm calling bullshit on your high horse, dude. If want to have ANY semblance of integrity, your next post had better be calling out SSO's much beloved friend Kurt Zentmaier of Rondo Music, and anyone that has ever bought an instrument of any sort from him, because the one on the left is an Epi Tribute LP (and thus an authorized LP), while the instrument on the right is an Agile AL-3000. LP copies were and are Rondo's "bread and butter", and what allowed them to grow and offer all the stuff they have that SSO as a whole just absolutely LOVES about Rondo. Oh, and Rondo's Chinese SX/Hadean/multiple other offerings can probably be had from the same OEM with "whatever" custom waterslide decal you wish on the headstock.
> 
> Lewis' incoming guitar is in function not one iota different from buying an AL-3000 instead of an honest to God LP, and that is the truth and heart of the matter.
> 
> ...



yeah thats sadly exactly how I felt. Literally been like a witchunt. Im thankful that at least a few, like yourself, have been here to even it up.
I contribute so many posts to this forum and at times in here Ive felt like I should just stop for a period of time but thats sad. I genuinely love coming on here and its almost routine for me now to do so.
Debates are fine but picking and choosing when your ammo applies, to use to lance someone with, is honestly utter BS.


----------



## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> I'm calling bullshit on your high horse, dude. If want to have ANY semblance of integrity, your next post had better be calling out SSO's much beloved friend Kurt Zentmaier of Rondo Music, and anyone that has ever bought an instrument of any sort from him, because the one on the left is an Epi Tribute LP (and thus an authorized LP), while the instrument on the right is an Agile AL-3000. LP copies were and are Rondo's "bread and butter", and what allowed them to grow and offer all the stuff they have that SSO as a whole just absolutely LOVES about Rondo. Oh, and Rondo's Chinese SX/Hadean/multiple other offerings can probably be had from the same OEM with "whatever" custom waterslide decal you wish on the headstock.
> 
> Lewis' incoming guitar is in function not one iota different from buying an AL-3000 instead of an honest to God LP, and that is the truth and heart of the matter.
> 
> ...



I stated a fact. You can call bullshit on whatever vague assumptions you assume I've said all you want, but it doesn't mean shit about the integrity of the point I made, nor does it make your already-knocked-down strawman argument any less of a strawman nor any less already-addressed of a point.

Valid point is valid. Bullshit point is bullshit. Personal integrity nor lack thereof has no effect on validity of specific points.

And to beat that dead horse into the ground, all I ever said was that both sides of the argument have valid points at this point in time. You want to fight me for that? If so, then you have issues.


----------



## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I stated a fact. You can call bullshit on whatever vague assumptions you assume I've said all you want, but it doesn't mean shit about the integrity of the point I made, nor does it make your already-knocked-down strawman argument any less of a strawman nor any less already-addressed of a point.
> 
> Valid point is valid. Bullshit point is bullshit. Personal integrity nor lack thereof has no effect on validity of specific points.
> 
> And to beat that dead horse into the ground, all I ever said was that both sides of the argument have valid points at this point in time. You want to fight me for that? If so, then you have issues.




Calling a point a straw man doesn't make it so. LP and Strat "inspired" guitars are a dime a dozen. This guitar is no different from that, and the exact domain of MANY a beloved SSO favorite (vintage Charvel/Suhr/Rondo/"lawsuit" Ibby). you CAN NOT rip on Lewis' purchase and maintain ANY semblance of coherency/legitimacy to your arguements without taking a crap over every last NGD from that group. It's ALL the exacts same damn thing at the end of the day.


I'm willing to say we're all getting just waaaaaay to worked up over things in this thread if you are...... peace?


----------



## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> Calling a point a straw man doesn't make it so. LP and Strat "inspired" guitars are a dime a dozen. This guitar is no different from that, and the exact domain of MANY a beloved SSO favorite (vintage Charvel/Suhr/Rondo/"lawsuit" Ibby). you CAN NOT rip on Lewis' purchase and maintain ANY semblance of coherency/legitimacy to your arguements without taking a crap over every last NGD from that group. It's ALL the exacts same damn thing at the end of the day.
> 
> 
> I'm willing to say we're all getting just waaaaaay to worked up over things in this thread if you are...... peace?



I never intended to rip on @lewis 's guitar. At the end of the day, what this builder does is on the builder himself.

I agree with the last point.


----------



## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I never intended to rip on @lewis 's guitar. At the end of the day, what this builder does is on the builder himself.
> 
> I agree with the last point.



I'll happily agree with this.


----------



## xzacx (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> What I want to know is why is THIS Ok:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But that's not OK either! And I would never own an Agile copy, nor any other brand that is operating with the sole purpose of undercutting the original designs. Rondo is a shameful company IMO. It's all bad. "Lawsuit"-era Ibanez. Edwards. All of that stuff is bad IMO, and I think that every time I see it. I'm not interested in shitting on every time someone posts about it either, but when the discussion comes up, like it did here - then, no, none of that stuff is OK.

And as has been said many times, stuff like early-Charvel and Suhr don't exist to be cheaper versions of the originals. Their point is to be better/premium versions. I don't necessarily agree with the level of inspiration they take (I think the Strat headstock was wrong), but those were supposed to be Super Strats, not Super-Cheap Strats.

OP keeps complaing that we're saying the same thing over and over, but some of you clearly don't get it, or just don't care. And if you don't care, that's fine, but be honest about it rather than trying to legitimize it.


----------



## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

xzacx said:


> But that's not OK either! And I would never own an Agile copy, nor any other brand that is operating with the sole purpose of undercutting the original designs. Rondo is a shameful company IMO.
> 
> OP keeps complaing that we're saying the same thing over and over, but some of you clearly don't get it, or just don't care.


i do. You would never buy any copied design from any builder period because of your own morals. Thats great man. I respect that completely good for you.

why does us not caring mean anything to you though?. Like Im fine with what Ive done here, and you are not. The end surely?
Especially when we have had a seriously in depth conversation from both sides in here and still people are taking the same stance they did at the start before that.

Lets just agree to disagree and wait and see what this piece of sexy/garbage purple, great/shit guitar arrives like.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 20, 2017)

My biggest beef with most chinese guitars is many of them ive seen are just firewood. 

So ripping off designs aside. If it fails to be a functional instrument then its a counterfit even if not of any particular brand.


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## laxu (Oct 20, 2017)

xzacx said:


> But that's not OK either! And I would never own an Agile copy, nor any other brand that is operating with the sole purpose of undercutting the original designs. Rondo is a shameful company IMO. It's all bad. "Lawsuit"-era Ibanez. Edwards. All of that stuff is bad IMO, and I think that every time I see it. I'm not interested in shitting on every time someone posts about it either, but when the discussion comes up, like it did here - then, no, none of that stuff is OK.
> 
> And as has been said many times, stuff like early-Charvel and Suhr don't exist to be cheaper versions of the originals. Their point is to be better/premium versions. I don't necessarily agree with the level of inspiration they take (I think the Strat headstock was wrong), but those were supposed to be Super Strats, not Super-Cheap Strats.



Why is charging a higher price and aiming for better quality acceptable but not trying to provide a similar guitar at a cheaper price point? What about a brand like Tokai who make guitars in various price points? Is a LS-98 at ¥98000 ($864) reprehensible but a LS-320 (which is in quality similar to Gibson Historics) at ¥320000 ($2822) fine? How do you feel about ESP/LTD who have a number of superstrats and LP style guitars? Surely they are disgustingly ripping off Fender, Charvel and Gibson?

You are trying to impose your self-made morals here. I already stated in an earlier post to this thread that legally the factors that make a guitar counterfeit are selling them as a brand you have no rights to (Strandberg) and using the Endurneck design without a license. OP's guitar does not have an Endurneck, Strandberg logo and the builder has not advertised it as one either. Hell, he is getting nothing even close to a Strandberg because the multiscale, Endurneck and custom bridge are very much defining features for the guitar.

Gibson tried to go after PRS for their Singlecut model but after years in court it was deemed that PRS did not infringe on G's trademarks. Guitar forum members at the time were calling Gibson idiots because nobody would mistake a PRS Singlecut for a Gibson LP. The line where a guitar design is too close to an existing one is very blurry legally so it is not known how little you need to change it to pass.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

Dineley said:


> My biggest beef with most chinese guitars is many of them ive seen are just firewood.
> 
> So ripping off designs aside.* If it fails to be a functional instrument then its a counterfit even if not of any particular brand*.



Thats genuinely the only real gripes that are true and that I expected to see in here.

The legalities and morals of it being a counterfeit was always a silly argument imo but hey ho.

Back on topic. Everything so far seems to indicate at the very least, it should be no different to any budget asian made guitars from any large company.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

laxu said:


> Why is charging a higher price and aiming for better quality acceptable but not trying to provide a similar guitar at a cheaper price point? What about a brand like Tokai who make guitars in various price points? Is a LS-98 at ¥98000 ($864) reprehensible but a LS-320 (which is in quality similar to Gibson Historics) at ¥320000 ($2822) fine? How do you feel about ESP/LTD who have a number of superstrats and LP style guitars? Surely they are disgustingly ripping off Fender, Charvel and Gibson?
> 
> *You are trying to impose your self-made morals here. I already stated in an earlier post to this thread that legally the factors that make a guitar counterfeit are selling them as a brand you have no rights to (Strandberg) and using the Endurneck design without a license. OP's guitar does not have an Endurneck, Strandberg logo and the builder has not advertised it as one either. Hell, he is getting nothing even close to a Strandberg because the multiscale, Endurneck and custom bridge are very much defining features for the guitar.*
> 
> Gibson tried to go after PRS for their Singlecut model but after years in court it was deemed that PRS did not infringe on G's trademarks. Guitar forum members at the time were calling Gibson idiots because nobody would mistake a PRS Singlecut for a Gibson LP. The line where a guitar design is too close to an existing one is very blurry legally so it is not known how little you need to change it to pass.



Thats certainly how I feel and completely echos my stance on this whole debate.

Well written too. Excellent post.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

@bostjan looking at this picture he sent me that low string seems ok so perhaps it is angles in photos.

I will confirm if this is ok when it arrives -


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2017)

is there a side shot of the bridge? i'm wondering how high the bridge is. it looks a bit thicker then a hipshot.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> is there a side shot of the bridge? i'm wondering how high the bridge is. it looks a bit thicker then a hipshot.



Different build, same bridge,.

This is as close as I could find as a side shot


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## xzacx (Oct 20, 2017)

laxu said:


> *Why is charging a higher price and aiming for better quality acceptable but not trying to provide a similar guitar at a cheaper price point?* What about a brand like Tokai who make guitars in various price points? Is a LS-98 at ¥98000 ($864) reprehensible but a LS-320 (which is in quality similar to Gibson Historics) at ¥320000 ($2822) fine? How do you feel about ESP/LTD who have a number of superstrats and LP style guitars? Surely they are disgustingly ripping off Fender, Charvel and Gibson?



If you don't understand this, then we are just at an impasse. It's one thing to try to improve upon a design. It's another to copy it and make it cheaper - it's just profiting on someone else's back.

As for ESP/LTD/Edwards - absolutely they're ripping off those brands - especially Edwards. They are one of the worst offenders IMO - at least when it comes to popular and widely known brands. Imagine what their guitars would look like if Gibson didn't exist. But at least ESP is producing high-qualify products, and with a models like the Eclipse, they tried to modernize the concept.

I'm not trying to impose any morals on anyone - we're having a discussion about the integrity of brands that rip off others, without adding anything worthwhile to the product. If you're OK supporting brands that do that, cool, but if there's a discussion about it, it shouldn't be shocking to find out that others don't.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

does anyone in here have any idea roughly how long packages on planes take to fly from China to the UK?.

Been tracking my guitar and it was in transit on the 18th with the plane symbol, but there has not been another stage added just yet so i wondered how long or how many flights, it might have to be before it even reaches the UK?


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2017)

lewis said:


> does anyone in here have any idea roughly how long packages on planes take to fly from China to the UK?.
> 
> Been tracking my guitar and it was in transit on the 18th with the plane symbol, but there has not been another stage added just yet so i wondered how long or how many flights, it might have to be before it even reaches the UK?



might take around 2 weeks. that's how long my hapas took from germany.

depends on how long customs takes too. the actual transit takes like only a few days.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

Get a Chinese tracking number, if you can. They have a decent system.

Here in the USA, I've had packages of electronics show up in a week, I've had packages take over a month, and I've had packages take a week to transport just to get pulled aside by customs/imports for weeks while they went over the paperwork. I don't know if the UK is more like the USA or more like Europe, or different entirely, but I've had a few nightmares shipping stuff to Germany. The tariff people there will hold a package indefinitely if you don't pay whatever ransom they want, and even if they are completely and clearly in the wrong with what they think it is, there is not way to take legal action until after the item is released, and then you can appeal the fees imposed after the fact. I lost a computer one time, because customs revised the value of the computer from $300 to $100 000, and I could not afford the tax on it, so it was destroyed, even though I had sent them the receipts and sales materials stating the retail price.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2017)

customs is the real villian


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> might take around 2 weeks. that's how long my hapas took from germany.
> 
> depends on how long customs takes too. the actual transit takes like only a few days.



Ah thats good to know dude. Thanks



bostjan said:


> Get a Chinese tracking number, if you can. They have a decent system.
> 
> Here in the USA, I've had packages of electronics show up in a week, I've had packages take over a month, and I've had packages take a week to transport just to get pulled aside by customs/imports for weeks while they went over the paperwork. I don't know if the UK is more like the USA or more like Europe, or different entirely, but I've had a few nightmares shipping stuff to Germany. The tariff people there will hold a package indefinitely if you don't pay whatever ransom they want, and even if they are completely and clearly in the wrong with what they think it is, there is not way to take legal action until after the item is released, and then you can appeal the fees imposed after the fact. I lost a computer one time, because customs revised the value of the computer from $300 to $100 000, and I could not afford the tax on it, so it was destroyed, even though I had sent them the receipts and sales materials stating the retail price.



I have a tracking no. and I was giving a website called "17track"?
think its being shipped by "EMS"?
no experience with any of this personally so haha

But the website seems decent to track. Its just it reached the "Despatched to the UK" stage on the 18th and not done anything else since haha. Was not sure how long flights were haha.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> customs is the real villian


yeah Im expecting that.
Ive been told 20% import tax for the UK?
Would put my tax in at what £50-£60?
ludicrous.
I am speculating though. No idea what I will be charged yet.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

Under UK commodity import law 92 02 903000: https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9202903000

3.20 % Duty
20 % VAT

To Calculate the duty:

Duty = Declared value of product x rate

To calculate VAT:

VAT = (Declared value of product + Duty + Shipping cost) x VAT rate

I don't know your actual pricing, but just as an example:

(EXAMPLE)

(EXAMPLE) Declared value of goods: £315 (EXAMPLE)
(EXAMPLE) Shipping cost: £40 (EXAMPLE)

(EXAMPLE) Duty = 3.20 % x £315 = £10.08 (EXAMPLE)
(EXAMPLE) VAT = (£315 + £10.08 + £40) x 20 % = £73.02 (EXAMPLE)

(EXAMPLE) Total cost then = £315 guitar and case + £40 shipping + £10.08 duty + £73.02 VAT = £438.10 (EXAMPLE)

(/EXAMPLE)

Hope it's clear enough that the above was just an example. 

Sometimes, and I won't say that it's common, but, I've seen it more often than not... but sometimes Chinese businesses will declare BS values on imports so the taxes are less than anticipated. I think that with a custom guitar, it's going to be difficult enough to get customs to believe that the item is worth <£500 anyway, though, so I wouldn't count on it in this case.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Under UK commodity import law 92 02 903000: https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/trade-tariff/commodities/9202903000
> 
> 3.20 % Duty
> 20 % VAT
> ...



Thank you so much for the info dude.
I think i just worked out they were example figures? haha

but no in seriousness so lets try and work mine out.

It was $380 for the guitar + hardcase
I paid $25 for ebony fretboard
Shipping was free

so thats $405, which Is £307.14 declared

3.2% x 307.14 = 9.82

so £307.14 + 9.82 = 316.96
316.96 x 20% = £63.39

so £63.39 should be my total import cost if Ive done it correct? haha

Which would take the total paid at £380.35? ($501.61)


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

lewis said:


> Thank you so much for the info dude.
> I think i just worked out they were example figures? haha
> 
> but no in seriousness so lets try and work mine out.
> ...



Sounds right, give or take two pennies, (I ended up with £380.37) assuming that's what they put on the paperwork.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2017)

they are probably going to put like 
11 dollars. used. prototype. on the customs. cuz china


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Sounds right, give or take two pennies, (I ended up with £380.37) assuming that's what they put on the paperwork.


ah good point.
I have a picture of the paperwork so I might be able to find what was declared.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> they are probably going to put like
> 11 dollars. used. prototype. on the customs. cuz china


possibly looking that way.

The printed out sheet of paper stuck to the front of the case which I presume is said paperwork we are talking about?.

only mentions $80usd a few times? haha

Im not seeing any other numbers/amounts other than the 6.85kg weight.


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## bostjan (Oct 20, 2017)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they declared $80 value, based on my experience with shipments from China. I've also seen stuff labeled as "promotional material" that was...well, scientific lab equipment.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I wouldn't be at all surprised if they declared $80 value, based on my experience with shipments from China. I've also seen stuff labeled as "promotional material" that was...well, scientific lab equipment.


haha brilliant.

So does Customs actually by that amount?. Like will they even bother looking in the box?.
I suppose its abit of a crap shoot. But if they do somehow think its only $80, then thats what £14 or something import tax? haahha


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 20, 2017)

they don't have time to look over everything.
but if they do look and they think something isn't right they will eff you up. maybe.

I mean I don't know how this shit works. It still confuses me that they now have like a trained rosewood specialist just sitting there that can tell the difference between rosewood and pau ferro on sight just looking at guitars all day long.


----------



## xzacx (Oct 20, 2017)

lewis said:


> possibly looking that way.
> 
> The printed out sheet of paper stuck to the front of the case which I presume is said paperwork we are talking about?.
> 
> ...



Could be different where you are, but it seems like a total crapshoot in the U.S. Whenever I buy something from overseas these days, my policy is pretty much "hope for the best." I've paid nothing on a guitar, and been charged $85 for a pair of shoes which was like 20% of their total price. You can spend all the time you want calculating things, but likely will end up wrong either way.


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

sensible advice then guys /\

I will basically just forget about and wait and see what comes in when its at Customs.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 20, 2017)

hopefully customs doesn't think its a Strandberg and charge you 20% the MSRP of that!!!!


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## lewis (Oct 20, 2017)

Dineley said:


> hopefully customs doesn't think its a Strandberg and charge you 20% the MSRP of that!!!!


Hahahahahah


----------



## Hollowway (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> What I want to know is why is THIS Ok:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who is saying this is OK?  I, personally, do not think it's OK. It's not like I'm out here buying a bunch of chibanez's, or Fender/Gibson Chinese copies. Copying others' designs is wrong, no matter the company. But, it is not fair to say that since someone in the past has copied, now it's open season to copy everyone. Just because others have done something wrong doesn't provide an excuse for doing it now. 

And, lest someone challenge me on it, I do not own a strat, LP, Ibby, etc. copy. I am a huge fan of original design, and I have all guitars that were either one-offs or unique, like the Boden. I don't bring this up to be holier than thou, but because I've been a vocal opponent of these Chinese copies for years now, and I want to make sure that it's clear that I am doing my best to live up to the vitriol I am spewing.  But, seriously, I may just be weird about it, but I just don't like wholesale copying of others' art. No particular hate for anyone buying these guitars, as it's not illegal, but I will continue to explain my viewpoint, in hopes of converting people over to my way of thinking about it, because I believe it's the right thing to do.


----------



## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Who is saying this is OK?  I, personally, do not think it's OK. It's not like I'm out here buying a bunch of chibanez's, or Fender/Gibson Chinese copies. Copying others' designs is wrong, no matter the company. But, it is not fair to say that since someone in the past has copied, now it's open season to copy everyone. Just because others have done something wrong doesn't provide an excuse for doing it now.
> 
> And, lest someone challenge me on it, I do not own a strat, LP, Ibby, etc. copy. I am a huge fan of original design, and I have all guitars that were either one-offs or unique, like the Boden. I don't bring this up to be holier than thou, but because I've been a vocal opponent of these Chinese copies for years now, and I want to make sure that it's clear that I am doing my best to live up to the vitriol I am spewing.  But, seriously, I may just be weird about it, but I just don't like wholesale copying of others' art. No particular hate for anyone buying these guitars, as it's not illegal, but I will continue to explain my viewpoint, in hopes of converting people over to my way of thinking about it, because I believe it's the right thing to do.



My point with that pic is that there is a generalized double standard that exists here on SSO as a whole. 

On the left is an Epi Tribute LP which is the "real deal" official thing. On the right is an Agile AL-3000.

Folks have crapped all over Lewis' decision because of the manufacturer/distributors choice of aesthetics to draw on and what else they manufacture, but SSO as a whole just seems to LOVE Rondo and has no problems buying a Septor, or even an AL from a guy that made his bones selling a ripped off aesthetic, and has no problem whatsoever buying a WMI made guitar with "Schecter" or "PRS SE" on the headstock even though WMI produces a ton of LP knockoffs too.

There's just a disconnect to the way the two situations are approached OVERALL.

If you wanna say NONE of it is "OK", that really doesn't bother me, you probably don't CARE if it bothers me or not, and that's all absolutely fine. Its the generalized double standard around these parts about it that gets to me.


----------



## narad (Oct 20, 2017)

exo said:


> My point with that pic is that there is a generalized double standard that exists here on SSO as a whole.
> 
> On the left is an Epi Tribute LP which is the "real deal" official thing. On the right is an Agile AL-3000.
> 
> ...



This is some BS. People can have complex moral beliefs. This isn't a single belief or "policy" we're dishing out in different ways -- it's a bunch of people having just about as many individual beliefs that they're applying consistently across multiple cases. You think all the people in here criticizing this purchase* are otherwise in the other Grote threads "Great original grote guitar!" or "Man, can't wait for my next Rondo LP!"? It's going to be two (/and more) mostly exclusive sets of people, and you're trying to call that a double standard.

* despite largely it's not that at all - but criticizing the _motivation_ for this purchase.


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## exo (Oct 20, 2017)

It's just that over the years, the pattern for the board IN GENERAL has been Rondo = "HNGD!! ENJOY!!!", China semi-custom "you're a dirtbag for buying that". (Yes, I realize that's an exaggeration to a point...)

I just find it inconsistent that it's no problem with an Agile LP knockoff but Grote is somehow just a step too far. Does not compute for me.

Maybe you're right, and it's two different sets of people that generally respond based on the fact that it's a "China guitar", and the vitriol makes those threads stand out more to me.

It's just the "board vibe" I feel over the years on the subject as a whole.


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## marcwormjim (Oct 21, 2017)

I never opened this thread until just now, when following up on Lewis and GuitarBizarre’s posts deleted from the fakemachine thread. I’m going back through and liking every funny.

Edit: Nothing against you Lewis, but the funniest thing would be you getting banned and the thread locked the moment you post that the guitar’s arrived.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> I never opened this thread until just now, when following up on Lewis and GuitarBizarre’s posts deleted from the fakemachine thread. I’m going back through and liking every funny.
> 
> Edit: Nothing against you Lewis, but the funniest thing would be you getting banned and the thread locked the moment you post that the guitar’s arrived.


Why would i get banned?. Ive broken no rules?.
Or are you saying it because you personally would like me banned? In which case thanks a bunch guy ive done nothing too.

End of the day i bought a guitar and wanted to share my experience. I cant be arsed with the debate any longer tbh. And half the dudes coming in here bemoaning chinese builds but not once appearing in that fake machine aliexpress thread proves exos point. Double standards.

Why is he not getting 13 pages of bs for his fake blackmachine?


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## marcwormjim (Oct 21, 2017)

Because his reactions to criticism aren't as conducive to the amount of pages that yours are.

What I was trying to say is that, with the way everyone kind of dogpiled on you, locking the thread just before you posted the NGD pics and review would escalate the dogpile to a new level of absurdity. I'm not hoping you get banned - This thread's funny as hell.

You could have mitigated much of it by being up-front with something like

"Hey I always thought Strandbergs were cool but, with a baby on the way, I can't justify a purchase like that. I see these Chinese Grote things have been getting surprisingly good reviews on Youtube; so I'm checking one out in the meantime, and will post my thoughts."

...But instead, you keep doubling down on excuses that, even if they didn't raise more questions than they answer, many seem to be taking as insults to their intelligence.

I have no dog in this fight - I just somehow didn't read the thread until a few hours ago, and I had a great time catching up. I'm not asking you to change a thing.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Because his reactions to criticism aren't as conducive to the amount of pages that yours are.
> 
> What I was trying to say is that, with the way everyone kind of dogpiled on you, locking the thread just before you posted the NGD pics and review would escalate the dogpile to a new level of absurdity. I'm not hoping you get banned - This thread's funny as hell.


i mean I havent really reacted in an odd way.
Ive just repeated the stance throughout that some are precious about copied designs and I am not. Just repeating that same stance for this many pages seemed a complete waste of time and energy to me but there you go.
Especially when there is obvious double standards already discussed.

As of right now, I wont be replying to anymore debate posts and will only be posting in here with shipping updates on the guitar and anything else Grote guitar related.


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## marcwormjim (Oct 21, 2017)

Got it.

Does my grote look infected, to you?


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Got it.
> 
> Does my grote look infected, to you?


i dont know but the scale length looks unusually short.


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## marcwormjim (Oct 21, 2017)

But I've been pulling on it every day! I blame the chinese!


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 21, 2017)

if i knew how to file frets i'd get one. lewis is getting rolled on shipping and import taxes on his end.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> *if i knew how to file frets i'd get one*. lewis is getting rolled on shipping and import taxes on his end.



Im defo thinking about buying some tools and trying to teach myself.

and what do you mean about shipping man?. Do you mean you think Im getting ripped off on import tax? Sadly thats the norm with these countries. I believe USA has customs tax too?

Shipping for me is free so i guess if someone said to me £63 for shipping and covering import tax, I would probably happily take that so i guess I cant complain too much.

Thankfully I factored the import tax in when I ordered it, by selling a guitar I had (for profit over what I bought it for i might add  ) to cover myself.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

just messaged the builder asking exactly what options are available for future builds (non headless shapes)
and got a reply.

Basically he can:
- do any colour/finish you want on any guitar he offers
- add binding anywhere in any colour
- can do any colour hardware
- do 22 or 24 fret options
- stain headstocks/back of necks to be any colour
- any fretboard options (well nothing obscure)
- any inlay design and material choice
- offer any pickguard material
but CANNOT do Stainless steel frets and luminlay type side dots and inlays.

So pretty large scope for custom orders through him in case any one was interested.


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## Chokey Chicken (Oct 21, 2017)

lewis said:


> just messaged the builder asking exactly what options are available for future builds (non headless shapes)
> and got a reply.
> 
> Basically he can:
> ...



By "any" design, does it mean any common design (like dots, shark tooth, block, offset, etc) or is custom an option? If I wasn't so scared of gambling, I'd totally get a custom inlayed guitar of some sort. I always wanted a cheesy custom 12th fret inlay of my band logo akin to (albeit much smaller and less intricate) the periphery "P" on Misha's sig. If they did, I might just order something to hang on the wall at some point.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

Chokey Chicken said:


> By "any" design, does it mean any common design (like dots, shark tooth, block, offset, etc) or is custom an option? If I wasn't so scared of gambling, I'd totally get a custom inlayed guitar of some sort. I always wanted a cheesy custom 12th fret inlay of my band logo akin to (albeit much smaller and less intricate) the periphery "P" on Misha's sig. If they did, I might just order something to hang on the wall at some point.


good point. I will follow that up actually.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 21, 2017)

lewis said:


> Im defo thinking about buying some tools and trying to teach myself.
> 
> and what do you mean about shipping man?. Do you mean you think Im getting ripped off on import tax? Sadly thats the norm with these countries. I believe USA has customs tax too?
> 
> ...



It's not technically free. you still pay for it. it's just factored into the cost of the guitar. An instock for me in China is 105 usd. Shipping to the US or Europe is like 175. Your build probably cost about 200 with 175 shipping is 375. plus the case like 50 which comes out to 425.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> It's not technically free. you still pay for it. it's just factored into the cost of the guitar. An instock for me in China is 105 usd. Shipping to the US or Europe is like 175. Your build probably cost about 200 with 175 shipping is 375. plus the case like 50 which comes out to 425.


ah i see what you mean.


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## lewis (Oct 21, 2017)

ok heard back.
to update - 
can offer pearl pickguards - confirmed.
can offer custom fretboard inlays - confirmed. 
they have the dots, blocks fretboard inlays, other inlay types etc- you can send images for him to copy 

can do the custom logos (a signature or band logo or symbol) confirmed. Custom logos with silk-screen printing are NO extra cost.

He can put binding anywhere - confirmed

@Chokey Chicken


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## narad (Oct 21, 2017)

lewis said:


> can do the custom logos (a signature or band logo or symbol) confirmed. @Chokey Chicken



Guys, check out my band's new logo ;-)


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## farren (Oct 22, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> *if i knew how to file frets i'd get one*. lewis is getting rolled on shipping and import taxes on his end.



It's easy and inexpensive to start doing your own leveling, crowning, dressing. Get a cheap Chinese guitar or some beat-to-shit used guitar with .5mm divots in the frets and get started. You don't need a ridiculously overpriced StewMac beam--there are some great wood radius blocks on eBay.

In the Internet age, everyone should learn to do their own guitar work. A big part of how well any job is done is how much the person executing it cares. You can largely mitigate inexperience by actually giving more of a shit and spending more time on a job than the average professional tech whose internal dialogue repeats the phrase "good enough" several times a day.


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## lewis (Oct 23, 2017)

guitar has arrived in the UK.

Official tracking update states "Awaiting customs clearance"
Now the 2 week wait i presume? haha

Will be pleasantly surprised if it clears customs quickly.


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## Chokey Chicken (Oct 23, 2017)

I've had things, admittedly not guitars, sit in customs for a while. Hopefully it goes smoothly for you.


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## marcwormjim (Oct 25, 2017)

Hey guys! Check out this totally legitimate thing:

http://www.rareelectricguitar.com/mobile/goods.php?id=3360


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## bostjan (Oct 25, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Hey guys!
> 
> http://www.rareelectricguitar.com/mobile/goods.php?id=3360





> *We ship from china, but our luthiers are from Japan and Korea, our workshop is in china, so we got lower costs, which make our sales price much lower, but pls don't worry about the quality, don't you know fender squire guitars and epiphone guitars are all made in China? so the point is not where the guitar made, but who made the guitar, our guitar are made by Japanese and Korean luthiers, so they got much good play ability, we can understand you may be a little anxious on international shopping, but sir, we both have paypal, paypal will protect your benefit, and we are also a famous replica shop, not a small puzzling store, so don't worry, we will give you a surprise.*



Wow, I had them written off as a *small puzzling store*, so that totally set my mind at ease. 

I wonder what kind of wood they use for the neck...let's see



> Neck wood Like the pic



Oh, ok, just like in the picture. (note: there is no photo on the page clearly showing the guitar's neck.)

Anyway, this is quite a different luthier than the OP, but your post still gave me a stitch in my side from trying to control my laughter.


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## Shoeless_jose (Oct 25, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Hey guys! Check out this totally legitimate thing:
> 
> http://www.rareelectricguitar.com/mobile/goods.php?id=3360



Lol wonder if they offer the true temperment


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## lewis (Oct 25, 2017)

"Body Wood = Like the pic"

Ah ok cool, well the picture makes the wood look like true pine so now Its true pine!. Awesome. pine guitar for such cheap prices.


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## marcwormjim (Oct 26, 2017)

Varbergs are way more expensive than the current Boden productions - Therefore, there is greater impetus to order one of these in order to see if a future Varberg is right for you.

Just keep shoving the kid back in by its spaghettiO-covered feet until after you’ve made up your mind, and the financial dilemma is effectively neutralized.


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## Hollowway (Oct 26, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Hey guys! Check out this totally legitimate thing:
> 
> http://www.rareelectricguitar.com/mobile/goods.php?id=3360



Ugh. See, this is what I mean. China has zero problem with copying other people’s hard work. They just lifted everything, brazenly, from strandberg. And there’s nothing Ola can do about it, because he cannot take on an international law suit, and he clearly doesn’t have the respect of enough of the guitar community to not have people buy these copies.


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## diagrammatiks (Oct 26, 2017)

That’s actually just a scam site. Because nobody in America has ever tried to scam
Someone else.


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## lewis (Oct 27, 2017)

Update:

"Released from Customs.."
erm wow ok.... that went alot quicker than I anticipated??!?
probably not much longer now then./


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## khm (Oct 27, 2017)

lewis said:


> Update:
> 
> "Released from Customs.."
> erm wow ok.... that went alot quicker than I anticipated??!?
> probably not much longer now then./



Good job you got it pre brexit then mate, as looks like there is going to be some mighty old queues at customs after that!


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## exo (Oct 27, 2017)

lewis said:


> Update:
> 
> "Released from Customs.."
> erm wow ok.... that went alot quicker than I anticipated??!?
> probably not much longer now then./



I am RIDICULOUSLY excited for you, man! I REALLY hope this thing is not the archetypal Chinese "almost a guitar".....


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## lewis (Oct 27, 2017)

exo said:


> I am RIDICULOUSLY excited for you, man! I REALLY hope this thing is not the archetypal Chinese "almost a guitar".....


thanks dude 

haha me too. Like I said earlier, I will be brutally honest either way.

Im wanting to purchase some tools to learn how to do fret dressing/levelling so what I might do is try to get those in before doing a proper review of the guitar. Then i can show what the stock fret job is like and how straight or not the neck is.

If its garbage, there will be nowhere to hide.
Im quietly optimistic though based on over 20 reviews of different customers worldwide who bought one of these from this specific seller, Ive read.

they all seem to mention how playable and well setup it is out the box.


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## Dave Wentz (Oct 28, 2017)

This is such a beautiful thing- well done!
sweet color tones too



lewis said:


> Just paid for this custom order purple burst headless 6 string strandberg copy.
> Will be my first headless and I am in love with the colour. Order comes with hardcase and will take about 5-6 weeks until Its built and shipped.
> 
> Looking for something "cheaper" first to see how I like the shape and design etc. This was a steal really.
> ...


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## lewis (Oct 29, 2017)

Dave Wentz said:


> This is such a beautiful thing- well done!
> sweet color tones too


thanks dude.

This is my actual guitar finished with the Ebony board -


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## exo (Oct 29, 2017)

At this point, the only things giving me pause are the neck profile/thickness, which I have zero info on, and the jack placement, which runs completely counter to the design ergonomics and playing in a "classical" position, and is the entire function of the body design where the controls are. That REALLY needs to be in a different spot from a "design" point of view......

It is absolutely beautiful to look at, man.


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## lewis (Oct 29, 2017)

exo said:


> At this point, the only things giving me pause are the neck profile/thickness, which I have zero info on, and the jack placement, which runs completely counter to the design ergonomics and playing in a "classical" position, and is the entire function of the body design where the controls are. That REALLY needs to be in a different spot from a "design" point of view......
> 
> It is absolutely beautiful to look at, man.


Yeah the neck might be average. It looks identical to the Yamaha neck I have on my current shreddy guitar. And to be honest Ive adapted to that and can play super fast so hopefully its more of the same as that.

The input Jack I imagine, could be requested to be relocated. He seems completely fine with things like that as he was with my strap button relocation request.

I play classic position mainly when Im sitting so yeah maybe this jack location will be a problem for that. I should of thought about that I guess.

Yeah the top and colours are mesmerising tbh haha. I keep looking at it every day and being just as "wow" as times before.


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## Señor Voorhees (Oct 29, 2017)

The jack placement _is _a bit of a bummer. A good chunk of the shape's benefit is that those weird curves aren't just for show. Considering it looks nice from a distance, at least you can rest assured that it'd make one hell of a decoration at the very least. lol

I'm not a huge fan of the colors personally though. Not enough purple for my gaudy tastes. Certainly not ugly, but not my personal cup of tea. Can't wait to hear how it plays. Not sure if you mentioned it or not, but make sure to let us know how it plays out of the box before mods (and after, if you do them.) I'm assuming the pickups will be trash. I'm more curious about how the bridge functions, how accurate the intonation is, sharp fret ends, crooked anything, etc. So long as the neck isn't warped or the glue joints aren't shit, it seems like pretty smooth sailing since everything at least sort of looks in order. Unless there's an angles game or something, everything that's changeable seems to be the only place for error at this point.


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## lewis (Oct 29, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> The jack placement _is _a bit of a bummer. A good chunk of the shape's benefit is that those weird curves aren't just for show. Considering it looks nice from a distance, at least you can rest assured that it'd make one hell of a decoration at the very least. lol
> 
> I'm not a huge fan of the colors personally though. Not enough purple for my gaudy tastes. Certainly not ugly, but not my personal cup of tea. Can't wait to hear how it plays. Not sure if you mentioned it or not, but make sure to let us know how it plays out of the box before mods (and after, if you do them.) I'm assuming the pickups will be trash. I'm more curious about how the bridge functions, how accurate the intonation is, sharp fret ends, crooked anything, etc. So long as the neck isn't warped or the glue joints aren't shit, it seems like pretty smooth sailing since everything at least sort of looks in order. Unless there's an angles game or something, everything that's changeable seems to be the only place for error at this point.



absolutely will do bud!.

I will tune it to whichever tension on the stock gauges makes sense (will be a drop tuning), then take shots/measurements of action height and document intonation, fret ends, height etc etc.
Will check for Neck straightness too. There will likely be fret buzz unless the guy is some sort of god and we dont know it haha.
Im going to fine toothecomb it for sure.

on the face of it, the Bridge and how it functions actually really appeals to me personally.

Sidenote, have you seen there is a VERY Purple one on offer? -


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Oct 29, 2017)

lewis said:


> Sidenote, have you seen there is a VERY Purple one on offer? -



That one is DEFINITELY way more up my alley. Ideally a darker purple, but that light purple is also very tasty. To be honest, I'm super curious about the hardware. Usually on these Chinese guitars the first to things to go are the pickups and the tuners. Headless tuners are much more difficult to swap out obviously since the market is so niche, so I'm wondering how well it'll hold up.

However, I despise the boden shape so I'm not exactly in the market for one of these regardless. I am just very interested to see how things go for you. Pretty interesting times we live in where you can get damn near anything under the sun made for dirt cheap. (morals aside)


----------



## marcwormjim (Oct 30, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> That one is DEFINITELY way more up my alley. Ideally a darker purple, but that light purple is also very tasty.



And here I am stripping the dark purple stain from my Strandberg because I hate it.


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## lewis (Nov 1, 2017)

still had no further tracking info updates since the 27th when it changed to "Released from customs".

Im going on Holiday for a week from the 6th so its a bit of nightmare now. Didnt anticipate it to take this long and overlap my booked holiday for my birthday.

I phoned Parcel force this morning to enquire about it because my logic was, if there is charges to pay its quicker to do it now over the phone, than potentially wait another week for some 2nd class post to arrive telling me about charges. Especially with the holiday.
Anyway, the dude was quite helpful and told me to expect another tracking update tomorrow as it reaches the delivery depot and also said it looks like there wont be any charges for me either.

So fingers crossed I get it before Monday.
otherwise Im going to have to inform them I want it delivered the week after Im back which means trusting them to hold the guitar for an additional week and hope it does not get stored badly or trashed.

Im abit worried now. It seems ridiculous to me it can get from China to England in a couple of days but then take weeeeeeks to get from Customs to my address one in the country?.


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## lewis (Nov 1, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> That one is DEFINITELY way more up my alley. *Ideally a darker purple*, but that light purple is also very tasty. To be honest, I'm super curious about the hardware. Usually on these Chinese guitars the first to things to go are the pickups and the tuners. Headless tuners are much more difficult to swap out obviously since the market is so niche, so I'm wondering how well it'll hold up.
> 
> However, I despise the boden shape so I'm not exactly in the market for one of these regardless. I am just very interested to see how things go for you. Pretty interesting times we live in where you can get damn near anything under the sun made for dirt cheap. (morals aside)



Here is his "darker Purple" one -


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## lewis (Nov 1, 2017)

ok slightly worrying update:

as I said above, via a phone call I made today they (parcelforce the courier) told me that I can expect an update tomorrow and that Its looking like I wont have any Custom charges.

fast track to this evening and Ive had an email from Parcel force from a response to an earlier email I sent them before the phone call, asking about info on the situation, and the woman who emailed me has said it looks like UKBF (UK Border Force/Customs) has seized my order!!!! and to phone them to sort it on a provided phone number. Ive tried and it just rings and rings.

So how can I get such conflicting stories from the same company (parcelforce?)
worrying thing is the tracking tells me it has CLEARED CUSTOMS?
Its really confusing and I dont know what to think right now until I can get hold of someone on the phone from customs tomorrow (here it is 6:30pm right now). Hopefully someone answers tomorrow. Im reading online they destroy goods they seize....!??!!

anyone got any advice?.
If it has been seized how can my Parcel force tracking state its cleared customs?. And how can Parcel force today tell me its got no problems and on the way only to be emailed this evening telling me the opposite?

Starting to stress about it.


----------



## Hollowway (Nov 1, 2017)

I just got a package in the mail, and it came from Russia. The updates on the tracker showed 1) Russia, then 10 days later, 2) New York, then 20 MINUTES later, Jamaica, then one day later 3) Sacramento, and then later that day it just showed up at my doorstep. So, long story short, don't panic yet. Sometimes package tracking isn't all that accurate. But, don't assume there won't be customs fees. For me (at least in the USA), it appears to be random.


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## Señor Voorhees (Nov 1, 2017)

lewis said:


>



This one is definitely way more up my alley. I even prefer the dark fretboard.

Hopefully you get a handle on things, but that's another risk with ordering Chinese guitars. I know I've heard of a few Gibson clones getting intercepted in the past.

Good luck, and I hope to hear good things in the coming days.


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## StevenC (Nov 1, 2017)

Parcelforce is the worst. Never trust their tracking. I frequently get no updates until it's delivered and then a full itinerary all at once.

Shame we privatised Royal Mail, really.


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## Señor Voorhees (Nov 1, 2017)

StevenC said:


> Parcelforce is the worst. Never trust their tracking. I frequently get no updates until it's delivered and then a full itinerary all at once.
> 
> Shame we privatised Royal Mail, really.



This is the case with most courier services it seems. Just today I had a package arrive from California and there were zero updates all week. Got delivered and all of a sudden a million tracking updates happened all at once. FedEx is notorious for it in my experience.


----------



## StevenC (Nov 1, 2017)

Señor Voorhees said:


> This is the case with most courier services it seems. Just today I had a package arrive from California and there were zero updates all week. Got delivered and all of a sudden a million tracking updates happened all at once. FedEx is notorious for it in my experience.


Very fair assessment. Parcelforce/Royal Mail is the worst for a variety of other reasons, though.


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

Heard back from Customs......they have no record of my parcel??...

And are telling me to assume its stuck in a backlog of guitars waiting to be checked they are not Chibsons etc..


----------



## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

So basically neither customs nor Parcelforce can tell me where it is, whats the situation with it, whether i have fees/tax to pay etc. What a complete shambles hahah


----------



## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

Update: Hold on to your hats.

So after customs told me they have no record of it, I phone Parcelforce. They once again told me their system says its been seized by UKBF and they would try and get hold of someone to confirm it. She came back and said no one answers (the same problem I had at first) and told her to leave it with her and someone would speak to me.

after this phone call Im tracking down other UKBF contact numbers and my phone rings. Parcelforce again. This time a really rude and very blunt man telling me that it HAS been seized on the 27th of October and now that its with a government agency, they are basically wanting no more part of proceedings. He was a complete douche. He gave me a different phone number for UKBF (the only nice thing he did).

I ring UK Border Force (who according to Parcelforce, have seized my guitar). I speak to someone there and she takes my info and confirms to me they do not have it and any record of it. She then tells me to email the seized package department, which I informed her I already had and they too have told me they have no seized it and have no record of it. To which she informs me that the problem 100% now rests with Parcelforce and the most likely scenario is they have "lost it". *Sigh*.

So back on the phone to Parcelforce I go but this time to open up an official complain against them for "lost parcels".
The guy I speak to about it, bluntly tells me "To be honest I dont know what I can do to help you with this and we are looking at ages probably before its resolved".
I tell him that it clearly has NOT been seized despite what Parcelforce have been adamantly telling me since the 27th. He says he will open a case to investigate what has happened to my guitar.

I ask him if its likely someone within Parcelforce had stolen it and just marked it as "seized" to try and cover their tracks and he claims they would be stupid to do that because they would get caught. I informed him what was inside the package, the colour of the guitar and the company it came from (Grote).
So basically its gone completely missing. Customs dont have it and have not seized it, and Parcelforce thought they had it, because they dont and havent got a clue what has happened.

(Parcel force are the best...........)

So I think I may need to get my money back because it seems to me the chances of ever seeing the guitar now based off all this info, seems non existent.
What a complete waste of time and money. Took like 2 months to build, finally shipped and got from China to the UK in 2 days. The second it reaches our shit country, it gets stolen/lost and all involved want to point fingers at each other rather than take responsibility for it.


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## prlgmnr (Nov 3, 2017)

ah shit that is weak


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## narad (Nov 3, 2017)

It has that "watched pot never boils" feel -- you really were excited about this and were following up with every step of the shipping, so of course you're the one out of 500 guy to have a serious issue!

But I wouldn't worry about it -- things tend to turn up. I doubt anyone is going to risk their job to steal a $300 Chinese headless guitar.


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

narad said:


> It has that "watched pot never boils feel" -- you really were excited about this and were following up with every step of the shipping, so of course you're the one out of 500 guy to have a serious issue!
> 
> But I wouldn't worry about it -- things tend to turn up. I doubt anyone is going to risk their job to steal a $300 Chinese headless guitar!


yeah basically in a nutshell.
I have put in for a refund because the way I see it. The seller has 5 days from now to do it or Aliexpress get involved, but in that time it may turn up and I can close the dispute so seems a win/win for me at this stage.

Either its 100% lost thanks to Parcelforce being parcelforce and i get my money back, or the guitar turns up and I get the guitar.


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## khm (Nov 3, 2017)

I know your pain, my custom guitar is somewhere in the German postal system at the moment, and DHL are notorious for not updating their tracking! so lord only knows when / it arrives! I hope we both get lucky and things resolve quickly! on the plus side, its nearly Beer O'clock and the weekend


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

khm said:


> I know your pain, my custom guitar is somewhere in the German postal system at the moment, and DHL are notorious for not updating their tracking! so lord only knows when / it arrives! I hope we both get lucky and things resolve quickly! on the plus side, its nearly Beer O'clock and the weekend


haha yeah good luck man.

I think my issue is no one can tell me "Ah yes its exactly here".
Everyone is like "Oh erm, we are not sure where it is".
basically.

I dont mind waiting if I know what Im waiting for haha. No idea whats going on.


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## bostjan (Nov 3, 2017)

What a nightmare.

Farcelfarce has a 15 day time limitation on international shipments, so you need to get the ball rolling with the shipper in China right away. You'll have to get them to reimburse you, then they'll have to file a claim, assuming that they were the ones who completed the paperwork for the shipment.

This is really disappointing.


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

bostjan said:


> What a nightmare.
> 
> *Farcelfarce has a 15 day time limitation on international shipments,* so you need to get the ball rolling with the shipper in China right away. You'll have to get them to reimburse you, then they'll have to file a claim, assuming that they were the ones who completed the paperwork for the shipment.
> 
> This is really disappointing.



Oh my god really!?!??!........

He extended my payment protection to another 15 days but if this is the case regards to parcelforce then I will have to apply for the refund right away.
For goodness sake what a shambles.


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## bostjan (Nov 3, 2017)

If I'm reading this properly: https://www.parcelforce.com/help-and-advice/sending/making-a-claim



> *What are the deadlines for submitting claims?*
> Claims must be submitted within the following timescales:
> 
> 
> ...


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

so I need to get a refund via aliexpress's payment protection and the seller is the one that needs to claim through Parcelforce?.

he did get quite ass'y when I tried the dispute/claim thing earlier. I explained it wasnt a personal decision but I just want my money back if the guitar has been lost.


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## bostjan (Nov 3, 2017)

Ultimately, the company responsible for paying the invoice from Parcelfarce is the only one who can make a legal claim for the lost item, I believe. If you get your money back from Ali Express, Ali Express will have to take it up with the seller, who will then have to file the claim with Farcelforce.


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Ultimately, the company responsible for paying the invoice from Parcelfarce is the only one who can make a legal claim for the lost item, I believe. If you get your money back from Ali Express, Ali Express will have to take it up with the seller, who will then have to file the claim with Farcelforce.


ok thanks for that headsup. Ive messaged him to tell him whats what.
Lets see what he wants to do. Otherwise, I can get my money back but he will be down a guitar and the money if he waits too long.

He told me in 5 years of selling he has never once had a "lost guitar"


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## khm (Nov 3, 2017)

lewis said:


> ok thanks for that headsup. Ive messaged him to tell him whats what.
> Lets see what he wants to do. Otherwise, I can get my money back but he will be down a guitar and the money if he waits too long.
> 
> He told me in 5 years of selling he has never once had a "lost guitar"



Can you ask for it in writing from parcel force so you can forward to him along with a reference number?


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## lewis (Nov 3, 2017)

khm said:


> Can you ask for it in writing from parcel force so you can forward to him along with a reference number?


probably not because they are sticking true to the "It has been seized" line.


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## farren (Nov 3, 2017)

What a shitty outcome. You must be heartbroken that your control cavity full of Chinese ketamine (in a very convincing 'guitar' delivery vehicle) is now being enjoyed by some thief at Parcelforce. I bet they crammed at least 150g in there.

Sorry... I guess I'm more used to reading about customs/courier-related complaints of a different nature from my distant past. It would be a really disappointing ending to the thread if the guitar doesn't turn up.


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## marcwormjim (Nov 3, 2017)

I remain optimistic that Lewis’ guitar will show up and suck.


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## Hollowway (Nov 4, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> I remain optimistic that Lewis’ guitar will show up and suck.


 Well, I'm sure it will show up. But, this is one of the downsides to ordering these direct from China guitars. I've seen these get snagged in the delivery process quite a bit. Buying these things is definitely not for the faint of heart. I, on the other hand, prefer to give substantially more money to legitimate US luthiers. And have THEM steal the money, and disappear into the ether.   Maybe BRJ used our deposit money to open a shop in China and copy his own work?


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## lewis (Nov 4, 2017)

Hollowway said:


> Well, I'm sure it will show up. But, this is one of the downsides to ordering these direct from China guitars. I've seen these get snagged in the delivery process quite a bit. Buying these things is definitely not for the faint of heart. I, on the other hand, prefer to give substantially *more money to legitimate US luthiers. And have THEM steal the money, and disappear into the ether*.   Maybe BRJ used our deposit money to open a shop in China and copy his own work?


hahaha absolutely this ffs hahah

So many peoples principles have more holes in than cheese haha.


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## lewis (Nov 4, 2017)

UPDATE

all my parcel force tracking data has completely vanished now.
Now I get the error message "we are unable to locate your parcel" whenever I try using the same parcel no. as before.

ouch.

I guess confirmation it has been lost?


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## DudeManBrother (Nov 4, 2017)

What a bummer


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## vansinn (Nov 4, 2017)

Mmnn.. a headless guitar that needs a tool for tuning it..
I hope 'tis a real strong magnet for holding that tool, else someone might end up a Bit embarrassed during a live performance, unable to tune it - unless having a technician standing by. With a tool..

Now, why is it that guitars from over yonder tends to get a lotta, well, _interesting_ comments? 
Whatever.. it'll be interesting to hear more about it. Maybe sounds too.


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## lewis (Nov 4, 2017)

vansinn said:


> Mmnn.. a headless guitar that needs a tool for tuning it..
> I hope 'tis a real strong magnet for holding that tool, else someone might end up a Bit embarrassed during a live performance, unable to tune it - unless having a technician standing by. With a tool..
> 
> Now, why is it that guitars from over yonder tends to get a lotta, well, _interesting_ comments?
> Whatever.. it'll be interesting to hear more about it. Maybe sounds too.


it appears the guitar has been lost/stolen during transit at this moment in time.
Last update was the 27th and no one can tell me whats happened to it since.

also apparently it holds tune REALLY well. Guess we may never find out.


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## narad (Nov 4, 2017)

vansinn said:


> Mmnn.. a headless guitar that needs a tool for tuning it..
> I hope 'tis a real strong magnet for holding that tool, else someone might end up a Bit embarrassed during a live performance, unable to tune it - unless having a technician standing by. With a tool..



If you have a technician standing by then you're not playing a Grote.


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## marcwormjim (Nov 4, 2017)

Wherever the guitar has disappeared to, it’s probably in-tune. I’m sold!


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## narad (Nov 4, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Wherever the guitar has disappeared to, it’s probably in-tune. I’m sold!



"It holds tune REALLY well." -- ParcelForce Employee


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## Shoeless_jose (Nov 4, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> Wherever the guitar has disappeared to, it’s probably in-tune. I’m sold!



Stays in tune cause the tuners are seized!!!


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## diagrammatiks (Nov 5, 2017)

I was under the impression customs had to give notice if they actually seized something.


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## lewis (Nov 5, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> I was under the impression customs had to give notice if they actually seized something.


Yeah exactly. Ive phoned them twice and spoken to them via the specific seized parcel email address too and every time they have told me they have not seized it and have no info on my parcel. 
Which would make sense because my tracker states "released from customs".

Also, some people in here are complete assholes. Making fun out of this situtation is a proper kick in the teeth.


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## laxu (Nov 5, 2017)

vansinn said:


> Mmnn.. a headless guitar that needs a tool for tuning it..
> I hope 'tis a real strong magnet for holding that tool, else someone might end up a Bit embarrassed during a live performance, unable to tune it - unless having a technician standing by. With a tool..



Strandbergs pretty much require an allen key too. At least on the one I had the tuners were incredibly stiff.


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## Chokey Chicken (Nov 5, 2017)

Not to forget floating trems that go completely useless if a string breaks. 

Sucks about the guitar though. Shit like this is why I buy from established companies. Muffing around with china and/or small builders is terrifying to me. I can't imageine what bernie rico customers felt like since even THIS would gut me pretty bad.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Nov 5, 2017)

As others have mentioned, when it comes to some stuff coming from China, regardless of the item, you can see months and months of backup. I ordered some bibs for my baby and they went missing for 3+ months, then one day they show up unannounced.

Sorry to hear about your troubles, hopefully things work out for you.


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## lewis (Nov 9, 2017)

Update.
Guitar located, checked, and released from customs.
Seems charges were raised, then revised then released.
No idea what that means and how much i will pay yet but phew.......!!!


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## exo (Nov 9, 2017)

AWESOME.


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## marcwormjim (Nov 10, 2017)

“Grote: Just a customs hop from the custom shop.”


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## lewis (Nov 10, 2017)

Looks like delivery tomorrow. Oh my

Soon we will find out whether its decent or a bunch of balsa wood made to look nice with crayons!.


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## Chokey Chicken (Nov 10, 2017)

Excellent news. Looking forward to your thoughts.


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## khm (Nov 10, 2017)

lewis said:


> Looks like delivery tomorrow. Oh my
> 
> Soon we will find out whether its decent or a bunch of balsa wood made to look nice with crayons!.



That is good news man! mine also finally became untangled from the German postal service! they know how to make me ages fast for sure!!


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## lewis (Nov 10, 2017)

i have the guitar!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NGD thread will be real soon once Ive gone over it 100%.

teaser pics -


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## exo (Nov 10, 2017)

On first glance, that does not appear to be firewood.


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## marcwormjim (Nov 10, 2017)

Did it ship with a fretboard guard under the strings? If not, that’s an oversight to consider; as a Chinese phone book could have fit easily.


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## lewis (Nov 11, 2017)

exo said:


> On first glance, that does not appear to be firewood.


Im shocked at how nice the finish on the top is actually. Very 3D. It really pops.


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## exo (Nov 11, 2017)

lewis said:


> Im shocked at how nice the finish on the top is actually. Very 3D. It really pops.



Any idea if it's a photo top, a veneer, or maybe a very thin (1/8 inch or so) actual top? And "real" depth to the figure?


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## laxu (Nov 11, 2017)

exo said:


> Any idea if it's a photo top, a veneer, or maybe a very thin (1/8 inch or so) actual top? And "real" depth to the figure?



Seems to be a veneer. You can see the flame figure does not continue to the natural binding areas.


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## lewis (Nov 11, 2017)

laxu said:


> Seems to be a veneer. You can see the flame figure does not continue to the natural binding areas.


I agree with this!. My money is on Veneer.


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## lewis (Mar 7, 2018)

resurrecting this thread for the purpose of saying, I have contacted Hipshots EU distributor about buying their headless bridge in Chrome.
Will look nicer, and the biggest plus is tweaking options. The standard bridge is OK but its string height adjustment is a joke. The action is just constantly too high even on "lowest".
The mounting screw holes will be different obviously, but Im hoping I can get around that issue. Plus tuning it is going to be way way easier as will restrings in general.
That and you cant beat regular saddles.

Anyway, further updates when I hear back about ordering.


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## lewis (Mar 8, 2018)

order made!


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## gienek (Mar 23, 2018)

Are these real mahogany??

Whats your opinion on rerouting jack socket?


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## lewis (Mar 31, 2018)

gienek said:


> Are these real mahogany??
> 
> Whats your opinion on rerouting jack socket?


I mean its really REALLY light and sounds super snappy/twangy (although that could be due to the bad stock pickups)
so im unsure on the body wood tbh.

Would be the lightest mahogany Ive ever had if so.


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