# Why aren't multiscale headless basses a thing?



## laxu (Oct 31, 2018)

It seems there are no headless multiscale basses on the market at all. Strandberg has been showing off the same prototype for years but nothing has become available to buy.

Is there a reason why headless multiscale basses are not a thing? Seems to me it would be a great way to avoid neck dive, possibly reduce dead spot issues and make the instrument smaller.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2018)

There have been some over the years, mainly boutique builders. There are certainly plenty of headless basses out there. It seems that there aren't many bassists that need extra long or short scales to gravitate towards multi-scale.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 31, 2018)

Carillon finished this one recently. I'm surprised Ormsby or Strandberg haven't got a headless bass out yet. Turning the bridge tuners with thick bass strings must be a workout though?


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## spudmunkey (Oct 31, 2018)

I'm not convinced that's actually multiscale. Is it really? What's the range? The pickups are angled, sure...but the nut and frets all look straight, and the bridge cutout looks straight, and the bridges themselves hardly look any further than normal intonation locations.


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## budda (Oct 31, 2018)

It wont sell


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 31, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I'm not convinced that's actually multiscale. Is it really? What's the range? The pickups are angled, sure...but the nut and frets all look straight, and the bridge cutout looks straight, and the bridges themselves hardly look any further than normal intonation locations.


it's not a multiscale.


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## makecamera (Oct 31, 2018)

LeFay Pangton


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2018)

I think the question is more "why aren't there any _mass_ _market_ multi-scale headless basses". 

The answer is because there doesn't seem to be much demand, especially when you consider how few custom ones there are.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 31, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think the question is more "why aren't there any _mass_ _market_ multi-scale headless basses".
> 
> The answer is because there doesn't seem to be much demand, especially when you consider how few custom ones there are.



This suprises me. Bass players seem to be less traditionallists and more open to experimental tech, and it seems like there'd be a large overlap of the multiscale market and the headless market.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> This suprises me. Bass players seem to be less traditionallists and more open to experimental tech, and it seems like there'd be a large overlap of the multiscale market and the headless market.



Bassists in general don't seem to harp on scale length as much. At most there are discussions of 34" vs. 35" over on TB. There just doesn't seem to be a huge contingent that "needs" super long scales or who prefer scales shorter than traditional.

There are headless fans, and fanned fret fans, but not much of an overlap. 

If the market was there, it would be serviced. I'm actually surprised Kiesel hasn't yet. Any word on that?


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## KnightBrolaire (Oct 31, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Bassists in general don't seem to harp on scale length as much. At most there are discussions of 34" vs. 35" over on TB. There just doesn't seem to be a huge contingent that "needs" super long scales or who prefer scales shorter than traditional.
> 
> There are headless fans, and fanned fret fans, but not much of an overlap.
> 
> If the market was there, it would be serviced. I'm actually surprised Kiesel hasn't yet. Any word on that?


From what I've seen a decent number of people in the kiesel owners fb group want a multiscale option for bass. I guess it's not quite enough demand to put out the multiscale option though.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 31, 2018)

It's gotta be in Hipshot's hands. If Hipshot thinks there's enough of a market for the hardware, both as an OEM for other makers as as "parts", they'll do it and perhaps Kiesel could either get a discount on the design/tooling cost if they partner, and perhaps an exclusive window of availability for them...but if sounds like Jeff's not sold, so he may not be willing to help foot any of that bill. The vanquish and now the JB seem like half-hearted tests, and they aren't exactly flying off the shelves (at least, it doesn't seem that way). I'm not saying it's hard or really that expensive (since it's effectively just a different cast base plate), but perhaps neither really see a ROI without someone else footing at least part of the bill, and it doesn't seem like either wants to be the one holding on to much of the costs.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> It's gotta be in Hipshot's hands. If Hipshot thinks there's enough of a market for the hardware, both as an OEM for other makers as as "parts", they'll do it and perhaps Kiesel could either get a discount on the design/tooling cost if they partner, and perhaps an exclusive window of availability for them...but if sounds like Jeff's not sold, so he may not be willing to help foot any of that bill. The vanquish and now the JB seem like half-hearted tests, and they aren't exactly flying off the shelves (at least, it doesn't seem that way). I'm not saying it's hard or really that expensive (since it's effectively just a different cast base plate), but perhaps neither really see a ROI without someone else footing at least part of the bill, and it doesn't seem like either wants to be the one holding on to much of the costs.



Do they have to use Hipshot hardware? ABM makes headless bass bridges that are multi-scale ready and readily available.


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## spudmunkey (Oct 31, 2018)

True, but they seem to value that partnership...and since all of the headless models use Hipshot, it would seem odd for one model to use something different, espially if it's a multiscale version of an existing model, like the Vader or Zeus. I can't think of any other reason than that.


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## saved (Oct 31, 2018)

Because the bassists like more a classic P-bass.
If they see something differend,than a common bass,they dont like it.
If you see,a bass equipment is not as fancy as a guitar equipment.
Its more easy for guitars to go longer scale than common 25" or be tuned lower.But for basses..how longer and how lower will you go?I have basses they go lower than the drum bass.They dont "work" in a band situation.
But in the end its matter of taste.
Do you like something "new" or still you are stuck in the "old days" and you like to have what bassist was playing when you where young and listen them.in your tape and fm radio?
For me,i like to gonone step further.
40" are vedy easy to play.Even my 47-44 scale bass is easy to play,exept if you playing 300bpm walking all the fretboard..


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## Demiurge (Oct 31, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> This suprises me. Bass players seem to be less traditionallists and more open to experimental tech, and it seems like there'd be a large overlap of the multiscale market and the headless market.



I agree that bass players are a bit more progressive, but- and I mean this in the nicest way possible- they're probably not as much total fashion victims like certain pockets of the electric guitar community.

It still seems like not too long ago where Steinbergers were collecting dust on shop walls and Novax necks were a curiosity. Then, with the right builder and the right players getting popular, these decades-old features became The Future of Musical Instruments.


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## Lorcan Ward (Oct 31, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I'm not convinced that's actually multiscale. Is it really? What's the range? The pickups are angled, sure...but the nut and frets all look straight, and the bridge cutout looks straight, and the bridges themselves hardly look any further than normal intonation locations.



Oops just looked quickly at the pickups, unless I saw a different one recently. 


I'm sure there will be a multiscale Vader in the future.


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## Winspear (Oct 31, 2018)

I will say that whilst fan is always a nice upgrade regardless of the string amount, there is much less need for it on basses given the range is generally only 6 strings or less, at least for the masses. Absolutely nothing wrong with straight scale up to 7 strings. I do feel that the explosion of fanned guitars has been driven mostly by extended range, downtuning, and fashion, which are less prominent in bass in my experience. Bassists seem open to new ideas but also very practical, and there is less practical need for it than with ERGs.

Let's not forget that one of the main benefits of fanning for guitars is stopping the bottom strings sounding like a bass. Not so much of a problem for bassists haha


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## Hollowway (Oct 31, 2018)

In the overall time line of electric guitars and basses, multi scale has really only just started. We have kind of a skewed take on stuff here, at Fanned Central Station. But, we only started seeing multiscale take off in guitar because we needed it based on 8 stringed guitars. Bassists are far more progressive than guitarists (I completely disagree that they only want their P basses), so we may eventually see it. But a production fanned bass is as likely a sighting as a fanned six string guitar, I’d guess.


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## LeviathanKiller (Oct 31, 2018)

Hasn't RondoMusic offered a headless multi-scale bass before?
@MaxOfMetal


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 31, 2018)

LeviathanKiller said:


> Hasn't RondoMusic offered a headless multi-scale bass before?
> @MaxOfMetal



I think they did, but I think it was short scales, like 32" to 34" or something.

EDIT: Yep. http://www.rondomusic.com/HXB-404_3034_Nat_Burl_Headless.html

Total odd-ball.


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## A-Branger (Nov 1, 2018)

laxu said:


> Seems to me it would be a great way to avoid neck dive, possibly reduce dead spot issues and make the instrument smaller.



only if you are coming from a Fender style bass. Other basses like Ibanez dont really suffer much from neck dive, only a little bit when sitting down standing theya re fine. See Dingwall, their headstocks are tinny AF, and they have no- neck dive, specially on how long scale they are

as for making the instrument smaller that only applies to guitars, and part of the reason why Headless are so attractive to guitars. Regular guitars have the bridge toward the middle of the boddy, so a headless guitar forces you to make a smaller body so you can access the tunners in the bridge, making a cool new shape and a small light body. Basses already ahve the bridge on the edge of the body, so a headless bass its jsut that, a regular bass with no headstock

yes, smaller body, but again if you step away from the huge table taht Fender basses are, you can find comfortable "small" shapes basses

a real way to reduce body weight and body size is to make a 24 fret bass. Reason why I preffer them over 20-22 fret basses is because of that, it forces the body to be smaller (plus eassier acces to the 15-19th fret

also what a headstock has to do with a dead spot?



Lorcan Ward said:


> I'm surprised Ormsby or Strandberg haven't got a headless bass out yet



Strandberg had one at NAMM last year, and theres some pics on the Strandberg tread, so I guess is that they are coming. I didnt like the enduro neck tho, and bass is my main instrument

Ormsby, their GTR bass run didnt sold too well, not sure when there would be another run. Some folks are asking for a headless model, but until theres not only enough demand, but proof that people wold buy them, there wont be any headless run soon, the regular model needs to sold more first. Ormsby its know for guitars and Im assuming 99% of people who bough one of the basses are guitar players (specially if you count the amount of 6 string basses sold too hahah) so I guess there wont be many numbers sold till bassplayers start buying them



spudmunkey said:


> Bass players seem to be less traditionallists and more open to experimental tech



yet 80% of the market are Fender and Fender style copies. Both production and custom stuff. Yes, bassplayers tend to be more open to stuff, but theres also a huge market of players overly attached to fender style stuff


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## laxu (Nov 1, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> only if you are coming from a Fender style bass. Other basses like Ibanez dont really suffer much from neck dive, only a little bit when sitting down standing theya re fine. See Dingwall, their headstocks are tinny AF, and they have no- neck dive, specially on how long scale they are
> 
> a real way to reduce body weight and body size is to make a 24 fret bass. Reason why I preffer them over 20-22 fret basses is because of that, it forces the body to be smaller (plus eassier acces to the 15-19th fret
> 
> also what a headstock has to do with a dead spot?



I play an Ibanez BTB33 at the moment but would not mind a multiscale option of that. But generally basses are more likely to be neck heavy so reducing mass at the headstock would help.

24 frets doesn't really require any resizing of the body, unless you are talking about extending for example the cutaways further.

I've read that having no headstock might have less chance for dead spots but I don't know if there is any truth to that.


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## spudmunkey (Nov 1, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> we only started seeing multiscale take off in guitar because we needed it based on 8 stringed guitars.



A good point. I think a part of that is because guitarists are more concerned about the increased long-scale tension on their thinner strings than bass players are....but I do think it's also marketing departments taking note of when trademarks/patents were expiring, and the existing markets when they did.

If i understand right, Novak himself was the only company (Novax) making the guitars, while with basses, he allowed Dingwall to officially license the "technology". So there have actually been more-readily-available fanned-fret basses for years under the Dingwall brand. At least, they _seemed _more easilly found and more-often seen than the Novak guitars (to me)...but that's purely anecdotal.


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> If i understand right, Novak himself was the only company (Novax) making the guitars, while with basses, he allowed Dingwall to officially license the "technology". So there have actually been more-readily-available fanned-fret basses for years under the Dingwall brand. At least, they _seemed _more easilly found and more-often seen than the Novak guitars (to me)...but that's purely anecdotal.



Novax owned a patent on a way to install fanned frets, not the multi-scale concept.

Him and his shithead lawyer tried strong arming builders into thinking that he owned the patent for multi-scale guitars, going as far as selling licenses. Some fell for it, some didn't.

About ten years ago he lost a lawsuit related to his patents and how he enforces them and the industry got wind of it, which is why there's been an explosion of new fanned instruments.

I don't know what Dingwall did, but Sheldon isn't an idiot, so I'm pretty sure he told Novax to take a hike, like most good builders.


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## I play music (Nov 1, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> Ormsby, their GTR bass run didnt sold too well, not sure when there would be another run. Some folks are asking for a headless model, but until theres not only enough demand, but proof that people wold buy them, there wont be any headless run soon, the regular model needs to sold more first. Ormsby its know for guitars and Im assuming 99% of people who bough one of the basses are guitar players (specially if you count the amount of 6 string basses sold too hahah) so I guess there wont be many numbers sold till bassplayers start buying them


I loved the idea of the Ormsby bass but they were sold years ago and I have no idea if they have been delivered now or if people are still waiting for them. I'd never buy any instrument at all that I have to wait years for and risk to maybe never receive anything. As much as I love the idea of a Ormsby headless multiscale bass, there is no way I would preorder one.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 1, 2018)

I play music said:


> I loved the idea of the Ormsby bass but they were sold years ago and I have no idea if they have been delivered now or if people are still waiting for them. I'd never buy any instrument at all that I have to wait years for and risk to maybe never receive anything. As much as I love the idea of a Ormsby headless multiscale bass, there is no way I would preorder one.


they actually just delivered the basses in the last few weeks. Most of those guys waited almost 2 yrs to get em (like I had to for my goliath).


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## spudmunkey (Nov 1, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't know what Dingwall did, but Sheldon isn't an idiot, so I'm pretty sure he told Novax to take a hike, like most good builders.



Dingwall actually did have a direct licensing partnership with Novak. If you look at a Dingwall multiscale bass, it would have had badging referencing Novak's system on the control cavity cover:


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## MaxOfMetal (Nov 1, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Dingwall actually did have a direct licensing partnership with Novak. If you look at a Dingwall multiscale bass, it would have had badging referencing Novak's system on the control cavity cover:



It's a shame he fell for that. 

Oh well, at least it lead to some awesome basses.


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## A-Branger (Nov 1, 2018)

laxu said:


> 24 frets doesn't really require any resizing of the body, unless you are talking about extending for example the cutaways further.



yup, search a fender jazz bass with 20 frets and a fender copy with 24 frets. Just because the access of them it forces the bottom cuttaway to be at the 24 (duh), this reduces the size of the body, or amount of wood that goes there. Also 24 fret basses tend to be original shapes (or different to those fenders), so the top horn doesnt come out of the 16th fret with a tick rounded fat horn (in order to repplicate a Strat), but rather they go from a lower point on the neck with a slimmer horn too. Extreme case the BTB, which top horn line merges with the lower (as in our btb33s  not like the new line with the old shape)



I play music said:


> I loved the idea of the Ormsby bass but they were sold years ago and I have no idea if they have been delivered now or if people are still waiting for them. I'd never buy any instrument at all that I have to wait years for and risk to maybe never receive anything. As much as I love the idea of a Ormsby headless multiscale bass, there is no way I would preorder one.



yeah as KnightBrolaire mentions, the basses have been shipped, some extras available if you wanted one. But yeah thanks to big delay it would be harder to make basses popular, as like you said people had a sour mouth about it. Once the current runs start to flow and people can see the waiting times are back to normal, then there could be a chance for a bass. I want it to happen as I want one  just I was broke at the time, and never fully liked the finishes chosen for that run


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