# Talk me into or out of an Axe Fx II for bass.



## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

I've posted about this in some other threads, but those threads mostly died, and this is kind of a separate topic, sooooo..... (If I'm wrong, feel free to merge with the other thread I guess?)

Talk me into, or out of, getting an Axe Fx II to use as a bass preamp. There's one for sale locally for $1400 CAD (Mk 2, not the XL).

Currently using SVT-IIP into a Crown power amp. I've lamented that it "doesn't feel tube-y", but I'm not sure if it's really tubes I want or just to try out different sounds.

My thinking with this is:
- It might make my bass rig sound better. (Replace the SVT-IIP, keep the Crown)
- I can experiment with distorted sounds and blending amps (the SVT-IIP is suuuuuper clean)
- Could make bass recording much easier.
- Might allow a much more processed/polished sound for live purposes.
- No reason I can't use the guitar-centric stuff, since that's what it's mostly marketed as.
- I have very few effects/pedals right now, so this expands that toolset a whole bunch.

Downsides might be:
- It's expensive.
- Maybe I won't like the way it sounds.
- It's not the latest version and some might think of it as "obsolete"
- I'm always a bit paranoid that digital sounds are going to have trouble cutting through a band, and even more so when talking about bass.
- I'd be worried that it's too easy to tweak away all the things that "sound bad" solo'd but make me disappear in a band context.

Anyone else still using an Axe II for bass that wants to share some thoughts?


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## cwhitey2 (Oct 15, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Downsides might be:
> - It's expensive.
> - Maybe I won't like the way it sounds.
> - It's not the latest version and some might think of it as "obsolete"
> ...


If you can afford it, buy it.
With all the tonal options, you should be able to find something you like.
I don't think it's obsolete.
You can go to the FOH with the AFX so I wouldn't worry about it not 'cutting'.
You won't know until you jam in band with it.


I bought an FM3 thinking it might not cut/it's digital tone won't be great...boy was I wrong. It sounds fantastic and there is nothing digital about the tone IMO.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 15, 2021)

Get a helix, in my opinion their bass tones are absolutely spectacular, awesome routing i/o's and a used LT is like 800 bucks right now. Seriously killer, and it'll be supported for quite a while longer.


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## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

There's a few things that kinda push me away from the Helix:
- Most of those products seem to be floor-based, and while it's kinda being picky, I don't want a floor-based solution. I want something that will either fit in my rack case, or replace the case outright (like an amp head, etc)
- I don't really trust Line 6
- There's none used nearby, and buying them new will exceed the cost of the used Axe I found.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 15, 2021)

TedEH said:


> There's a few things that kinda push me away from the Helix:
> - Most of those products seem to be floor-based, and while it's kinda being picky, I don't want a floor-based solution. I want something that will either fit in my rack case, or replace the case outright (like an amp head, etc)
> - I don't really trust Line 6
> - There's none used nearby, and buying them new will exceed the cost of the used Axe I found.


There is the rack option, but that is the pricier side. If you found the AXEFXII for cheaper than a used LT, do that! I just would worry about it being supported in the future, where I feel helix would be longer for updates. 

What about Line 6 do you not trust? Actual question, not putting you on the spot because your reasons are your reasons, just would like to hear what people are worried about?


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## budda (Oct 15, 2021)

If the ii is a good price, buy it and spend a good chunk of time with it. Remember that you can swap tone stacks from any amp inti whatever model you're on, which makes it 100+ amps x 100+ tonestack options alone. Viewing them as amps instead of guitar v bass will help exploration too. If the ii is a good price, you arent going to lose money.


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## Crungy (Oct 15, 2021)

Are there any other bass preamps or pedals you've looked at or tried? 

I have an Axe 2 XL+ and I absolutely love it guitars. It's easy to use and sounds great! I don't think it's near obsolete yet and has a ways to go before that. The effects are also killer. 

For bass? It's not bad by any means but it hasn't made me switch from my bass outboard gear. I use a B7K, PSA 2.0 and a Boss LMB3 and have almost any tone I could ask for. (The Darkglass stuff does way more than djent!)

I agree you probably wouldn't lose money on it if you wanted to try it, but I'm in the "its not so good for bass" camp. You could get a lot of other bass stuff for that kind of money.


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## odibrom (Oct 15, 2021)

Get the AXE. It will be a fantastic FX unit to play with for long time to come and it can work well with other analogue preamps you may find interesting to add to the rig along the way...


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## jephjacques (Oct 15, 2021)

As much as I swear by the AxeFX, I don't love it for bass stuff. None of the bass amps really do much for me. I have a darkglass Alpha/Omega Ultra that I love, I use that and run the AxeFX as a glorified IR loader.


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## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> What about Line 6 do you not trust?


It might very well be unwarranted, but it's hard to shake the reputation of being the company that gave us the Spider amps and PODs. Their pre-Helix products were a large part of why I thought of modellers as bad-sounding. I literally just went to their website and their home page is a giant warning about one of their products being a fire hazard, which is hilarious.



Crungy said:


> Are there any other bass preamps or pedals you've looked at or tried?


I've tried:
- Peavey Tour 700 - loud but boring
- Sansamp RBI - clank city
- SVT-IIP - similar to the RBI but much warmer, much less clank
- Mesa Mark IV - R1 sounds nice. Tube-y. Very bright. R2 is surprisingly cool sounding. Power amp runs out of headroom too quickly to be useful in a loud band though.
- SVT 300w head of some kind - one of the local venues has one for anyone to use. It's what you would imagine. I kinda wanted one, but they're pricy, heavy, and I realized they're meant for 2-4 ohm, which wouldn't pair well with an 8ohm cab.
- B7k - I borrowed one for a while, and while I see why some people like it, I wasn't sold. The dirt was not to my taste. Didn't spend much time with it though.

Most of the time when playing shows, I'd give just a clean DI signal to FOH, and use whatever I had for stage-only.

For those in the not-good-for-bass camp - what in particular did you find lacking?


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## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

cwhitey2 said:


> You can go to the FOH with the AFX so I wouldn't worry about it not 'cutting'.


I missed this earlier.

My concern about cutting was less for shows and more for jams, where I can't rely on PA support. Even at shows, I prefer not to assume I'll always have good PA support.


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## odibrom (Oct 15, 2021)

This "cutting" thing in a JAM context is a matter of physically adjusting cabs orientations and your position in room, as well as EQ and overall volume so no one steps over others... generally speaking, moving cabs around and getting better positioning to face the speakers' cones solves most problems, then, one touches volumes and EQs at last... Try to find a way on getting the speakers pointed at your head, not your feet.

I wouldn't worry about "cutting" unless your amp+cab doesn't have enough juice to play with the rest of the band. It's not the AXE FX that delivers the big volume, although it contributes to it obviously.


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## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

I have no concern with the cab in the room being able to do its thing, and the Crown amp has plenty of power to it, but some sounds just don't cut very well - and for all of the good you can do with EQ, it's also very easy to accidentally chop something out. 

Even with the very basic controls on the preamp I have now, I'll spend time making it sound cool on it's own just to find out that it gets buried immediately as soon as anyone else is playing. The more buttons and options there are to push, the more ways are now available to shoot yourself in the foot, is all I'm saying.


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## budda (Oct 15, 2021)

jephjacques said:


> As much as I swear by the AxeFX, I don't love it for bass stuff. None of the bass amps really do much for me. I have a darkglass Alpha/Omega Ultra that I love, I use that and run the AxeFX as a glorified IR loader.



This is why I said play around with the 100+ other amps available and dont view it as guitar vs bass amps


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## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

Repeating just so it doesn't get lost in the thread:
I'm definitely interested in hearing from those who say Axe is no good for bass. What do you not like about it? Lack of variety/models? Bad IRs? Something off about the feel? Particular usability/workflow pain points? Some other measure of sound quality that doesn't compete with a "real" amp?

Also curious to hear _how_ people are using this. I'd still mostly play through a real cab (powered by the Crown PA amp).


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## TedEH (Oct 15, 2021)

I guess I'm not really hearing too much serious "don't do it" points, or at least none that have elaborated past hypotheticals or "it didn't work for me" but no detail as to why.
So far the downsides seem to be the learning curve, and a few people on a different forum don't like that other products have more bass-specific models.

I'm more or less on that edge of "maybe I'll just go get it and it probably won't lose any value if I want to sell it".


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## Crungy (Oct 16, 2021)

@TedEH I would say lack of models. They felt like they were too dry or would overdrive sooner than I wanted. It slowed me down in getting tones I like. Feel was another factor: I honestly could get a tone faster with a Bass Pod or even my little Zoom B1on. 

I have only used it in a studio environment, not a full bass rig since I don't gig or rehearse at higher volumes.

My vote is buy it if you think you'd use it for guitar as well, otherwise that's a lot of money you could use on stuff better suited for bass.


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## Winspear (Oct 16, 2021)

You could have a lot more versatility of tones and fun with equivalent $ in analog gear. Axe is fine for bass but really not much variation. Unless you're putting a *lot* of value on a large range of very tweakable effects I wouldn't bother - a few flexible fx pedals could still fit into the budget alongside a handful of different preamps


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## TedEH (Oct 16, 2021)

Winspear said:


> You could have a lot more versatility of tones and fun with equivalent $ in analog gear.


Do you have examples of what I'd be looking into in that case? I can't think of another setup that would get me the same kind of options that isn't also a digital modeller.

I'm picturing a chain that looks something closer to what I do in-DAW for recording:

Edit to fix, 'cause the forum threw out the spacing....

Input > split -
...
- Bass model > lo pass > compressor -
- guitar model > hi pass > compressor -
...
- combine > output > real power amp + cab

I'm unfamiliar with any analogue gear that would do the same thing.


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## Crungy (Oct 16, 2021)

Do you need to combine it to a mono output for your amp, or would you split the highs and lows to each side of your power amp?


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## jephjacques (Oct 16, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Repeating just so it doesn't get lost in the thread:
> I'm definitely interested in hearing from those who say Axe is no good for bass. What do you not like about it? Lack of variety/models? Bad IRs? Something off about the feel? Particular usability/workflow pain points? Some other measure of sound quality that doesn't compete with a "real" amp?
> 
> Also curious to hear _how_ people are using this. I'd still mostly play through a real cab (powered by the Crown PA amp).



The stock IRs are okay, but in my experience third-party ones are usually an improvement. That's a cheap fix though, most IR packs are like $15. It only has a couple bass amp models, and while they sound _okay,_ they're nothing particularly amazing. I find I have to do a lot more work to get a bass sound I'm happy with as compared to a guitar sound. Like, drive pedal or compressor into amp, into EQ, into cab IR, plus an additonal guitar amp + cab chain to get some dirt, then mixing everything to taste. It's annoying to do all this work to get a tone that's just _decent_ when I can get a tone I'm much happier with after 5 minutes tweaking my Alpha/Omega and running that straight into the Axe. It really is much quicker to twist physical knobs and move physical EQ sliders than to navigate menus, even in Axe-Edit. And I don't play live but if I ever did, I could run the Alpha/Omega as a preamp straight into a power amp and cab, or into FOH.

Sorry this is turning into a "just buy a darkglass" post but depending on the sound you're going for, it can be a much cheaper and simpler solution than shelling out for an AxeFX.


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## Crungy (Oct 16, 2021)

@TedEH I see now why you would want that. You could do that without an AxeFx it's just going to take some pedals and cables to do it, and if a rack mount approach works better for you I understand. 

Pedals/cables and floorspace aside, I think you could accomplish the same thing for a bit cheaper than the Axe.


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## TedEH (Oct 16, 2021)

Crungy said:


> Do you need to combine it to a mono output for your amp, or would you split the highs and lows to each side of your power amp?


More than likely whatever I come up with needs to be able to come out of a mono poweramp into a single cab. It's really common to show up to gear sharing scenarios where you basically just have a single 8ohm (or 4) cab to work with and just have to deal. Easiest way to do it is with a single output that can handle 4/8/16 ohms or whatever. Plug and play.



jephjacques said:


> I find I have to do a lot more work to get a bass sound I'm happy with as compared to a guitar sound.


I guess I've found that to be true to bass with in most circumstances, regardless of the gear involved.



jephjacques said:


> "just buy a darkglass"


If I was a fan of the darkglass sound, I probably would. Also, I have a b7k available to me that I can use, and I've usually chosen not to.



Crungy said:


> I see now why you would want that. You could do that without an AxeFx it's just going to take some pedals and cables to do it, and if a rack mount approach works better for you I understand.


Yeah, there's something really unappealing to me about the whole process of cycling through tons of pedals and gear and wiring and re-arranging boards and needing all this routing and stuff when at the end of the day I just want to plug into something that will make cool sounds, give me a bit of variety, and pipe out into a speaker to make it loud.

I did the multi-effect pedal thing a long time ago when the state-of-the-art with those horrible Digitch RP-whatever pedals.  All I can think to say is .


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## Crungy (Oct 16, 2021)

I forgot you are just running to one cab as well. That said, the Axe is probably your best bet to experiment with.

If you do get it, upload your experiments on AxeChange, I'd definitely try it!


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## TedEH (Oct 16, 2021)

I was ready to go the bone-headed route and just go get the thing, but the seller has ghosted me. Told me to contact him after 2, so I messaged at 3. Nothing. Messaged again around 5:30. Still nothing.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Crungy (Oct 16, 2021)

Booooo!


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## Winspear (Oct 17, 2021)

Fair enough if you'd want to avoid a pedalboard to do it, but for sure that's a pretty common approach done with splitter pedals , merger pedals, and indeed some pedals that combine those features such as the CorrectSoundCustom Splitter/Blender, something I'm sure companies like Bright Onion and Saturnworks make, Earthquaker Devices Swiss Thing, or more advanced versions like the EHX Tri Parallel Mixer which has some EQ built in etc. Vfe klein bottle (discontinued?) was very sophisticated also.
Something like that and a few preamps and comps of choice would get you there easy.
It's also easy enough to wire up a guitar blend side in parallel into the loop of a bass amp you particularly love too for example (the wiring is exactly the same as for the pedalboards, you are just treating the front end of the head as a preamp pedal and using its poweramp after the blend).
You may also be interested in this https://ironether.com/pedals/divaricator/ though a bit more limited.


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

I mean, I'm sure it's doable to wire all of this stuff in analogue gear, and maybe for cheaper, but you're talking about lugging 2 amps + a pedal board + extra cabs everywhere you play, and completely eliminating the possibility of gear sharing at shows. The idea of "my whole complicated bass rig is inside this little box" is pretty appealing. I went basically from "I bet my bass sound could sound better" to "I bet I could do some cool stuff with a modeller" to trying to come up with a complicated pedal board to mimic what DSP can do in one box for some reason. I don't think that's the path I really want to go down. I'm not a pedalboard guy.

That being said - since Axe2 guy ghosted me, I was able to find one more Axe2 for sale, but for more money (booo), and have been debating if I should consider floor models if I'm going to go down this route anyway. (Helix Stomp, FM3, etc). The FM3 new is about as much as Axe2 tends to go for used, from what I can see. Downside being only one amp sim/block at a time, which defeats what I wanted to try out. And there's a part of my brain that lights on fire (in a bad way) at the thought of relying on Line 6 stuff for anything. Don't ask me to justify that, I can't, and I know it's dumb - I just don't want Line 6 gear.

Then there's the idea of just trying out a whole new proper bass amp. My original search started because I suspect there's something about my Crown power amp that I don't like - which made me think I want something tube-y, which led to.... SVT? Some of the newer Mesa heads? Modellers that try to sound tube-y?

Or maybe I should just give up on the bass sound search for now, 'cause my little Ampeg preamp is fine, I guess. It only really does one thing (Ampeg-y clean), but it does that pretty well. It's not a need. Not gonna lie, I was kinda excited at the idea of owning an Axe Fx in general, just to have a shiny thing to play with and a lot of knobs to tools to play with, but it's not a need by a long shot.


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## budda (Oct 17, 2021)

Spend the extra on an FM9 and have two amp blocks + current gen models?


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

We're well above the $2k mark at that point. The FM3 would work out to 1600 I think? Which is still a lot of money to satisfy the "wouldn't it be cool to own an axe FX" type of itch, and mostly get used for a bass, and not quite be the form factor I had hoped for (although I do understand the benefit of a tiny rig-in-a- pedal). 

The dual amp thing is maybe a hypothetical anyway.... Do people actually use that kind of setup in the real world? Or would I be likely to try it once, go "lol I guess that was fun" and then never do it again? I guess who knows.

I don't mean to be dismissive of the suggestions in the thread - I know I'm kinda bone headed.


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## budda (Oct 17, 2021)

TedEH said:


> We're well above the $2k mark at that point. The FM3 would work out to 1600 I think? Which is still a lot of money to satisfy the "wouldn't it be cool to own an axe FX" type of itch, and mostly get used for a bass, and not quite be the form factor I had hoped for (although I do understand the benefit of a tiny rig-in-a- pedal).
> 
> The dual amp thing is maybe a hypothetical anyway.... Do people actually use that kind of setup in the real world? Or would I be likely to try it once, go "lol I guess that was fun" and then never do it again? I guess who knows.
> 
> I don't mean to be dismissive of the suggestions in the thread - I know I'm kinda bone headed.



FM3's used are $1100-$1300 (there's on a canadian forum for $1350). Might even be able to find one less including shipping stateside too. Figure you're at least getting the opportunity to try the current modelling for the same price as a used II give or take. This all hinges on a II not showing up for a fair price of course.

And if you're willing to spend an easily-recoupable $2k, you can find III mk1's for that much on occasion.


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## Crungy (Oct 17, 2021)

If you're going to try new amps I'll throw Aguilar out there. The Tone Hammer 500 is one hell of an amp in a small package. I think they make a 750 watt or 1000 watt version now, but the 500 worked well for me in a band with two half stacks, and one band with three.


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

budda said:


> FM3's used are $1100-$1300 (there's on a canadian forum for $1350)


Which forum are you seeing it on? I've mostly been watching Kijiji + Facebook marketplace.


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## budda (Oct 17, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Which forum are you seeing it on? I've mostly been watching Kijiji + Facebook marketplace.



https://www.guitarscanada.com/threads/fractal-audio-systems-fm3-original-box.279965/

I keep telling people this forum exists, no one seems to pay attention  (another member is on there but only in the buy/sell).


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

Good catch. I had no idea that site existed.


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

@budda Not gonna lie - it's tempting to grab that FM3. Do you "know" that guy from the other forum? Any red flags in terms of trusting the guy to ship it? It's farther than I think I'd be willing to drive.


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## budda (Oct 17, 2021)

TedEH said:


> @budda Not gonna lie - it's tempting to grab that FM3. Do you "know" that guy from the other forum? Any red flags in terms of trusting the guy to ship it? It's farther than I think I'd be willing to drive.



Never dealt with him. Theres a feedback section on that board as well. Join, PM and ask/provide forum transactions or exchange numbers to vet.

Edit: also check the price of a new one shipped to your door.


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

I was able to find the guys reverb feedback, and it's all positive, so that's a thing at least. Same on kijiji, etc.


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## budda (Oct 17, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I was able to find the guys reverb feedback, and it's all positive, so that's a thing at least. Same on kijiji, etc.



I say go for it. If you don't gel, you'll be out shipping.


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## TedEH (Oct 17, 2021)

Yeh I think I'm just gonna do it. If I don't like it, I'll resell it. If I do like it, maybe I can sell some of the stuff it would replace instead.


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## budda (Oct 18, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Yeh I think I'm just gonna do it. If I don't like it, I'll resell it. If I do like it, maybe I can sell some of the stuff it would replace instead.



This is the way


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## TedEH (Oct 21, 2021)

FM3 came in today. Immediately turned off power+cab sims and put it into the return of my Mark IV.

First impression is that a lot of the models are pretty hairy. My second impression is that it does a much more convincing Mark IV than I was expecting (although using the genuine power amp is maybe cheating). Third thought was that I wondered if I thought the first thought because I'm so used to Marks that I forget that most other amps are more hairy than that.

After some guitar noodling, and deciding that I also like the Herbert model, I turned the power amp part back on and went through the Crown + bass cab instead. There's two SVT models - the first felt kinda flat. The second one though - once again surprised that it's closer to the sound and feel of the Ampeg pre I'm used to. The bright switch on that model doesn't seem to do anything though. Maybe that's for the best 'cause the treble knob has a lot of range, and it doesn't strike me as too "clanky" out of the box.

I can definitely understand why some might not like the interface on this thing, but I'm pretty good at working that kind of stuff out (and I'm not afraid to dig though the manual). If anything, I found the on-device controls aaaaalmost intuitive, while the FM3-Edit program feels like it has a lot of "hidden" functionality that it doesn't signpost for you.

Sooooo much stuff to noodle with though. I do find it funny on some level that I might end up with this spaceship-looking complicated DSP processor dealie handling my bass just for it to sound like a clean bass amp half the time.

So I guess the first gut reactions to it are positive. I didn't try the other bass amp models at all yet, but I absolutely want to try the Mesa 400 models.


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## budda (Oct 21, 2021)

Also try "guitar" models and swap the SVT2 tone stack in.

Edit: speaker curve is your new best friend (in the amp block iirc).


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## budda (Oct 22, 2021)

https://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/dr-bonkers-guide-to-using-fractal-axe-fx-3-for-bass.172532/


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## TedEH (Oct 22, 2021)

It's interesting to see the IIC+ model in his list of amps that work well for bass.

I've used my Mark IV as a bass amp a couple of times and it works surprisingly well as long as you don't go nuts with some of the settings - although I wished at the time that some of the controls were centred on different frequencies. The high end gets a little too touchy too quickly. I can't think of a good word for it. Glassy? Shiney? Clanky? It's just a lot. And doesn't distort nicely with that much high end, especially if your cab has a tweeter.


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## TedEH (Oct 22, 2021)

Also just noticing now that I'm seeing a lot of familiar user names on other forums lately. 90% of the time if I'm not on sso, I ignore usernames. I tend to forget that this forum isn't it's own little universe whose inhabitants cease to exist in the real world.


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## Andromalia (Oct 22, 2021)

Take some time to try mixing more than one head.  Like a bass amp _and _a JCM 800 in parallel.


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## budda (Oct 22, 2021)

Andromalia said:


> Take some time to try mixing more than one head.  Like a bass amp _and _a JCM 800 in parallel.



Cant in the FM3. But he can use a dry signal parallel to an amp block for pseudo-bi-amp possibilities.


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## TedEH (Oct 22, 2021)

The thought I had too is that I think some of the "drive" models are sort of like preamps, so I could arguably use one of those as part of a split. Only get one amp block, but two drive blocks. Could probably split into two - send one to a drive of some kind, hi-pass the bass off of it, send the other to a different drive or keep it clean, lo-pass it, re-combine then feed that into an amp. Sort of like a way to compensate for not having "bass variants" of a lot of effects, and keep the bottom end.


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## budda (Oct 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The thought I had too is that I think some of the "drive" models are sort of like preamps, so I could arguably use one of those as part of a split. Only get one amp block, but two drive blocks. Could probably split into two - send one to a drive of some kind, hi-pass the bass off of it, send the other to a different drive or keep it clean, lo-pass it, re-combine then feed that into an amp. Sort of like a way to compensate for not having "bass variants" of a lot of effects, and keep the bottom end.



Yep. And you have geq, peq, filters - lots of playthings.


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## TedEH (Oct 22, 2021)

I dunno if it's just me, but on day two of noodling, I'm almost finding this more useful and convincing as a bass amp than a guitar amp.

I say that because a lot of the amp models sound...... a bit same-y to me so far. And I can't tell if that's because they're all defaulting to too much gain, or if it's because the Axe has it's own sound that's kinda baked into the gain character of everything (I think it's at least a little bit this), or because I'm so unused to playing through different amps that they all come across as "just not my old amp", or because the axe has a built-in "feel" that's distinct from what it models, or some combination of all of the above or what. Or it could just be that I haven't figured out the nuances yet. I also haven't tried any downloading anyone elses presets yet, I've only tried some stock ones, and the ones I've made myself.

But at the same time..... somehow the Mark models are right on. I kinda want to bring this thing to a jam, and put it next to one of the other amps it models and let someone who is familiar with the other amp do the comparison. Like I know a guy who has a Roadster, he could probably tell me if it's reacting similar to that.


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## budda (Oct 22, 2021)

The issue is that copying settings wont yield the same sounds due to parts tolerances. It's covered in depth on the fractal forum if you want to read it .

I didn't find things same-y at all. That said, if you're used to 1 or 2 sounds for the last while then anything different might get homogenous as you whip through amp types.


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## TedEH (Oct 22, 2021)

I'm thinking less in terms of getting exactly there, but more just what the gain character feels like.

I tend to think of amps in terms of:
Mark - reasonably tight, gets very saturated but stays pretty smooth. All the crunch stays in the mids instead of getting hairy.
Recto - Not exactly tight, chugs bloom out and generate a ton of low end, usually needs a boost to be "tight". Not quite smooth like a Mark, but not super hairy.
Marshall - Instead of blooming, chugs will kinda fart if you use too much gain, so you use a boost to get there instead. Gain character is hairy, crunchiness is focussed higher than previous two.
5050-ish - It's a chainsaw. Hairy _AND _crunchy. Can do the recto bloom thing, but not as much.

I know I don't have much experience with most of those, so I might be way off, but that's the picture in my head.

I set up a blank patch, no cab sim because I'm using a real cab, and just jammed an amp sim in to try some out. And it basically goes like:
Amp 1 - Hairy and gainy.
Amp 2 - Little different but hairy and grainy
Amp 3 - Hairy and grainy.
Amp 4 - Clean
Amp 5 - Sounds like a clean amp with a fuzz pedal
Amp 7 - Hairy and grainy
Amp 8.... hairy and grainy......

I tried the a couple of the recto and 5150 style amps, and they neither bloomed nor chainsaw'd, but I also didn't give them a fair amount of time.

I'm reasonably confident that I gatta give myself some time to get more familiar and that a 30 second preview of "pick an amp, strum.... hm... next amp" isn't really a fair evaluation, especially when I don't know the real amps that well.

I DID spend a good amount of time on the Mark model just because I know that amp really well. Even tried to see if it would do the same fuzzy thing if you crank the pre-gain low knob and it did. Like it's almost too convincing. I tried to find an equivalent to match my DSL40C, but none of the "Brit" named models had the right feel.

Based on how the knobs on the Mark models react, I'm assuming that even though the knobs all reset to 5 when you pick a new model, that doesn't mean that 5 is a neutral or reasonable starting point.

I also think I'm giving myself a disadvantage of playing at too low a volume. Now that the weekend is here, I'm sure I'll have more time to dig in to something that isn't just trying to copy things I already own.


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## budda (Oct 22, 2021)

If you aren't trying some speaker curves when you switch amp types, that may be contributing a fair bit. An easily overlooked parameter haha.

As for some amps, sometimes it's a deeper parameter edit (negative feedback comes to mind) to turn one amp into something else people know well. I tweaked out an RV50 and I think it's 1/3 closer to a 5150 in nature, and I love it. That said, I do most of my playing and listening at reasonable headphone level.


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## TedEH (Oct 22, 2021)

Yeh I haven't touched the speaker curves at all yet. I assume that this is mostly a power amp / feel thing? I would have guessed the effect is pretty subtle. Also makes me wonder if the smart thing would be to set that up most of the time to match the cabs I expect to be using most often - which is probably v30s.


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## budda (Oct 22, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Yeh I haven't touched the speaker curves at all yet. I assume that this is mostly a power amp / feel thing? I would have guessed the effect is pretty subtle. Also makes me wonder if the smart thing would be to set that up most of the time to match the cabs I expect to be using most often - which is probably v30s.



I'll let @RevDrucifer blab about it, he's had a lot of success.


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## TedEH (Oct 23, 2021)

Soooo many details to figure out. I just realized that all the sims default to "FRFR" output mode, but I have to switch to "SS + Power Amp" mode. I don't hear an immediate difference, but who knows.

What will be fun is I'll be able to take this thing to the jam room on Sunday and see what happens with some volume.


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## Screamingdaisy (Oct 24, 2021)

TedEH said:


> The dual amp thing is maybe a hypothetical anyway.... Do people actually use that kind of setup in the real world? Or would I be likely to try it once, go "lol I guess that was fun" and then never do it again? I guess who knows.



I tried, but unless you’ve hired your own soundman it’s not going to fly. My reality was ten minute changeovers between bands and all I got on bass was a line check. I think it’s why we’re seeing most of the innovation on the DI side of things.

In theory, you’d think the AxeFX would be more popular on bass since it’s essentially a digital DI, but it’s up against some way more popular products that are way cheaper, way smaller, and way easier to use. Most bassists stick to one sound since switching would mess with the overall mix a lot, so I think using an AxeFX on bass is a bit like trying to pop a cork out with a Swiss Army knife when all you need is a smaller, cheaper, and easier to use corkscrew.




TedEH said:


> I say that because a lot of the amp models sound...... a bit same-y to me so far. And I can't tell if that's because they're all defaulting to too much gain, or if it's because the Axe has it's own sound that's kinda baked into the gain character of everything (I think it's at least a little bit this), or because I'm so unused to playing through different amps that they all come across as "just not my old amp", or because the axe has a built-in "feel" that's distinct from what it models, or some combination of all of the above or what. Or it could just be that I haven't figured out the nuances yet. I also haven't tried any downloading anyone elses presets yet, I've only tried some stock ones, and the ones I've made myself.



Probably because you’re using the same cab for everything. I once plugged a Super Lead into a Recto cab, turned the gain up to 8 and was surprised how much it sounded like a Rectifier. Similar thing in reverse when I plugged a Recto into Greenbacks.


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## budda (Oct 24, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Soooo many details to figure out. I just realized that all the sims default to "FRFR" output mode, but I have to switch to "SS + Power Amp" mode. I don't hear an immediate difference, but who knows.
> 
> What will be fun is I'll be able to take this thing to the jam room on Sunday and see what happens with some volume.



I highly recommend reading the manual a couple of times.


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## TedEH (Oct 24, 2021)

Yeh I definitely went through parts of the manual, and been digging through fractal forums, the Yeks guides, etc.

I spent some more time today picking some models and sticking with them for a while. I've been picking models that are similar to sounds I'm used to or that I think I'd like, then making the performance page match vaguely the control layout on the real amp, and spending some time playing around with it. My comment about "they're all pretty same-y" dissolves a fair bit as soon as you dig into a model.

Did a Mark IV model where each scene matched the channels (R1, R2, Lead) since that's what I'm most used to. I'm still pretty impressed by how convincing it is. This is also a amp where the real one functions really well at low volume, so that might give it an advantage of not needing much speaker interaction or volume to be convincing.

Then did a "Brit Silver" model 'cause it's very different, but also something that I think I'd like.

Then, the next sound I'm most familiar with is the Rectos owned by some guys I jam with - so I set up some basic presets with the recto models, same layout: each scene is one of the channels, and setup the the performance screen to look like the front of the amp. This one..... needs the boost.

The Recto model though I think is a bit of a weird one, cause I think that amp really interacts with a speaker in ways the Mark doesn't. I got it to sound good, but I'm not playing with much volume, so I think I'd need to either crank it, or actually use the IR and play through a monitor or something to get the full effect.


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## budda (Oct 24, 2021)

Master volume on the rectos is the ticket. I think most have success with it between 1 or 2?


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## TedEH (Oct 24, 2021)

Playing with the Mark model made me realize how much the knowledge of the real amp helps. I was near a Roadster today and if I had thought of it I could have taken a picture of the settings used on it. Would give me a ballpark to something I'm familiar with maybe.


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## /wrists (Oct 24, 2021)

for 1400 CAD?? 

no sir. 

I got mine for 700 USD. mkII and it's overkill for the two presets I designed and use lol. Could've used a FM3 and been fine.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 25, 2021)

evade said:


> for 1400 CAD??
> 
> no sir.
> 
> I got mine for 700 USD. mkII and it's overkill for the two presets I designed and use lol. Could've used a FM3 and been fine.


When did you get that deal? Before used gear prices went insane? Look on reverb and ebay right now, zero axefx ii's for under 1200 usd.


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## TedEH (Oct 25, 2021)

evade said:


> no sir.
> 
> I got mine for 700 USD. mkII


You're a bit late on this one. The price went down to 1200, then he ghosted me, then I passed on the II and grabbed an FM3 instead.

Worth noting too that the value of things is going to vary by market. Lots of people are asking much more than that for the II still in this area. They average about $1700 CAD. Some are asking over 2k if the footswitch is included. That same ~850 CAD would get you one of the older Ultras if you're lucky. (I'm surprised the value is that close right now, I thought the two dollars were more distant than that but I haven't been paying attention. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)

I can understand why some would call it overkill, but it kinda suits me. I play multiple instruments, in different bands, with very different sounds, so the flexibility is a win for me.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 25, 2021)

TedEH said:


> You're a bit late on this one. The price went down to 1200, then he ghosted me, then I passed on the II and grabbed an FM3 instead.
> 
> Worth noting too that the value of things is going to vary by market. Lots of people are asking much more than that for the II still in this area. They average about $1700 CAD. Some are asking over 2k if the footswitch is included. That same ~850 CAD would get you one of the older Ultras if you're lucky. (I'm surprised the value is that close right now, I thought the two dollars were more distant than that but I haven't been paying attention. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯)
> 
> I can understand why some would call it overkill, but it kinda suits me. I play multiple instruments, in different bands, with very different sounds, so the flexibility is a win for me.


Some people call it "overkill" which makes zero sense to me in a musician viewpoint. It's called "future proofing" and "gas annihilation" to me.


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## TedEH (Oct 25, 2021)

I dunno about gas annihilation. I have a bad feeling it's going to give me enough of a taste for a variety of amps that I'm going to want to try the real things.


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## /wrists (Oct 25, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> When did you get that deal? Before used gear prices went insane? Look on reverb and ebay right now, zero axefx ii's for under 1200 usd.



Literally like maybe a month ago lol. 

I wouldn't look on reverb haha. I got it locally.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 25, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I dunno about gas annihilation. I have a bad feeling it's going to give me enough of a taste for a variety of amps that I'm going to want to try the real things.


Well, I can assure you the first few months of my modeling dive, I ran it 4cm into my 5150's, my Mark V, and a couple marshalls, and I can assure you, with a little bit of amp tweaking, it got to the point of going through the same poweramp/cab, the real amps preamps all were modeled so well that it really kills my need to go buy and orange or a JCM for that type of sound. The cab is 90% of the tone to me anyways.


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## CanserDYI (Oct 25, 2021)

budda said:


> Master volume on the rectos is the ticket. I think most have success with it between 1 or 2?


Yep, MV on recto's for me dont go past about 2 on the master, bring it up to volume with Ch Volume or a level block at the end, anything higher than 1 or 2 on MV becomes squish city.


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## TedEH (Oct 25, 2021)

I'm definitely starting to see why some people get caught in that "why do all amps sound the same" thing though. Each amp model certainly has their own thing, their own feel, nuances, ways the controls respond, etc., but it's also really easy to end up always in the ballpark of the same sound when it's the same person dialing the amp, through the same cab, in the same room, with the same guitar+pickups, etc.

I mean, arguably, amps all kinda "do the same thing" - it's all different combinations of similar circuits and principles. I know I've only been kinda casually noodling at low volume with what's arguably not reaaaaally the real amps, but I find I need to dig a little into a model to really see what it's about. The Mark IV model can get stuuuuupidly close to the real thing, but there's so many options you need to tweak to get there - just like the real thing. The midgain/harmonics switch is there, the pull fat switches are there. If you didn't know about those or how the dials work on those it wouldn't sound right.

That's why I'm trying to setup presets where the performance page looks a lot like the actual front panel of the amp. So I can load up a 5153 model, give myself a realistic front-panel of knobs to play with, start turning things to eventually land at that AHA _there's the fizzy chainsaw I was looking for._ Which is something a Recto or a Mark can't quite do.

I mean, you'd do that with a real amp too.... sit there and fiddle with knobs until it does what you want. Not sure why I would have expected that process to be super different.


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## budda (Oct 25, 2021)

Its the single cab that brings the same-ness.

Roll IR's on your computer some time, you can get an amp to sound nothing like itself in one click


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## /wrists (Oct 25, 2021)

CanserDYI said:


> Some people call it "overkill" which makes zero sense to me in a musician viewpoint. It's called "future proofing" and "gas annihilation" to me.



In my scenario, I had a Mooer Ge 200 which does similar to the Axe FX, and I had an opportunity to purchase some of the Line6 stuff on a heavy discount. Overkill as in, there are more price efficient options.


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## TedEH (Oct 25, 2021)

budda said:


> Its the single cab that brings the same-ness.
> 
> Roll IR's on your computer some time, you can get an amp to sound nothing like itself in one click


Yeh I've no doubt.

My main use-case is probably going to be through the real cabs I've got though, so I've been rolling with that. 4x12 and a 4x10 in my living room haha


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 25, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Yeh I haven't touched the speaker curves at all yet. I assume that this is mostly a power amp / feel thing? I would have guessed the effect is pretty subtle. Also makes me wonder if the smart thing would be to set that up most of the time to match the cabs I expect to be using most often - which is probably v30s.



It mainly affects the depth/top end and depending on which curve you select, it’ll either be subtle or huge. Once you select the curve, you can also fine tune it. I was doing it a lot more pre-Cygnus but after I’m barely even touching them unless there’s that obnoxious low end in a Mesa I can’t dial out. 

They don’t list the speaker in the cab, you’ll just see Recto 2x12, Friedman 4x12, etc, so you don’t specifically know exactly which speakers were in the cabs they got the curves from. 

Just tinker around with them and see what they do. I haven’t played around with them at all when plugged into an actual cab, which is how I’ve been playing since I got my FM9. I’m actually curious about that now, how it’ll affect an actual cab instead of just an IR. Definitely going to check that out tonight.


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## TedEH (Oct 25, 2021)

I ran into one case so far where that curve seemed to make a significant difference. With the recto model it seemed to default to what I think is a curve taken from an OS recto cab, which sounded fine on a 6, but on a 7, some chugs would reaaaaally badly flub out - I'm guessing hitting that resonant spot. I swapped it for a "normal" / non-oversized looking curve and the extra flub went away.


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 25, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I'm thinking less in terms of getting exactly there, but more just what the gain character feels like.
> 
> I tend to think of amps in terms of:
> Mark - reasonably tight, gets very saturated but stays pretty smooth. All the crunch stays in the mids instead of getting hairy.
> ...



The low volume thing can certainly be a contributing factor to that. I’d be willing to bet if you switched to IR’s for a while and did the same tests, you’d notice the differences a lot more. 

Playing through my 2x12 in my living room, I can’t crank it up and the speakers need to move some air to get the tones you’re going for. There’s also the aspect of having the cab/speakers color the tone quite a bit and if things are sounding the same, well, they’re all coming out of the same speakers/cab. 

One of my 2x12’s has WGS Retro 30’s, which is like a tamer version of V30’s, all my scooped/metal presets sound like mid-rangy ass through that cab, but when I plug in my Mesa 2x12 with Black Shadows, all the good shit is there. 

Really, I need to shoot IR’s of my cabs, that way I’m not relying on a 3rd party IR to get close to my actual cabs. The FM3/9 can’t capture IR’s, but if you’ve got another method of doing so, I’d definitely give that a shot as you’ll get a lot better results when trying to dial in tones you’ll be running into your cab if you have an actual IR of your cab.


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## RevDrucifer (Oct 25, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I ran into one case so far where that curve seemed to make a significant difference. With the recto model it seemed to default to what I think is a curve taken from an OS recto cab, which sounded fine on a 6, but on a 7, some chugs would reaaaaally badly flub out - I'm guessing hitting that resonant spot. I swapped it for a "normal" / non-oversized looking curve and the extra flub went away.



Yeah, the OS curves can get boomy as fuck. I’ve been partial to the Recto 2x12 and I think Fractal’s reactive load (can’t remember what it’s called). 

Don’t forget though, you can continue fine tuning those curves when you get back to the menu. Sometimes I’ll find one that has the right amount of body to it, but there’s an aggressive bump that delivers too much “Ohmmmmm”, being able to dial that out without losing the body aspect is pretty slick.


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## reaxis (Oct 28, 2021)

I am a helix user for bass, my brother is an axe fx user. If I had the money, I would save up for the axe fx rack with floor unit myself, the sound clips are great.


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## TedEH (Oct 28, 2021)

So far my impression is that it would be really hard to fault the flexibility of the Axe / FM3 / etc. Never tried a Helix, but I'd bet you could get similar.

My original worry was that maybe the SVT-IIP would be a lot warmer, or be able to do something the FM3 can't in terms of feel or something, and now I don't think that's the case anymore. I could probably dial them in such a way that most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference, although the IIP is just a clean preamp so I guess that's not saying much.

I suspected before that the thing I felt I was missing with the existing bass setup I had was the missing tube power - and this makes me think I wasn't too far off. That IIP was designed to be paired with the full SVT power section, not a transparent class D amp, and you can tell. A clean low B just sounds.... not bad, but not coloured in the way you'd hope a good bass amp would do. It's too clean, and not very musical. Through my guitar amp, it was more rounded and musical. The FM3 models have that round musical low end that clean power doesn't deliver on it's own, so I'm kinda happy with that so far. I haven't tried it at band volume yet though, so we'll see how that holds up later.

I just slap the SVT model in there and "match" the settings to what I'm used to and I immediately notice some differences, but the core is there:
- The model is definitely more compressed, but you can dial back the gain and master to where that difference is more negligible.
- The bright switch in the model is a lot more subtle. I can hear it when playing through IRs, but I don't hear it as much through a real cab. The bright switch in the IIP is not subtle at all - even with the tweeter on the cab entirely off. If I reaaaaally wanted that same effect I could probably do it with EQ I guess.
- The model can be driven into distortion if you want, but the IIP pretty much just stays clean. It squashes and looses brightness instead of distorting. I guess that's a taste thing.

In terms of the other bass models and things I've noodled a bit with so far:
- The orange model feels like you threw a blanket over the amp. It's lacking all high end and I can't figure out why. I don't think it's supposed to. Maybe it's because I have the tweeter almost off on the cab and the high end is focused much higher? I dunno. Can't gel with this amp at all because I normally use a pretty bright sound. What I'm getting from it doesn't match the clips I can find on youtube all at.
- The portaflex model kinda just sounds like a smaller, brighter, SVT. Maybe a little less mean but it's hard to tell. The bright switch on this one behaves like I was expecting it to on the SVT model, that is to say it's not subtle at all. You could easily land in clank-city if you're not careful. Seems worth exploring later.
- The Mesa 400 models feel like whole other thing. The low end is very forward but also kinda compressed? I dunno how to describe it. The high end can also get pretty clanky. I'm not great with sound-describing vocabulary, but if an SVT is grunt, the 400 is grind.
- I stuck the shred boost model in front of some of these. I kinda like that one for bass.
- I obviously tried the darkglass model. The default setting for that one sets it to "thin" mode and sounds like trash and chops all the low end out, so you have to turn the hi-pass down to get your actual bass back. Even with that correction, it still kinda sounds like trash to me. I dunno what it is, I can't get darkglass stuff to sound good, be it the real pedal or the model. They just don't do for me what they do for other people. Maybe it's the jazz bass / pickups I use, when a lot of others are using more "metal" basses and humbuckers, etc.


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## budda (Oct 28, 2021)

Portaflex is a good time in there


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## TedEH (Oct 28, 2021)

For the Axe users who are here:

Does it make sense to pick a speaker curve preset that matches the cab I'm likely to be using most of the time? As in-
Lets say that my use case (for guitar) is going to be primarily Recto cabs and other similar cabs with v30s (through a crown power amp). Would I want to match the curve of the real cab, or is this a case of "try em all and stick with whatever sounds good"?

Edit:
Maybe a better question as it applies to bass:
If I look up the specs for the speakers in my bass cab, they claim to have a "resonance" of 53hz.... maybe that makes sense to input that as the low frequency?


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## /wrists (Oct 28, 2021)

TedEH said:


> For the Axe users who are here:
> 
> Does it make sense to pick a speaker curve preset that matches the cab I'm likely to be using most of the time? As in-
> Lets say that my use case (for guitar) is going to be primarily Recto cabs and other similar cabs with v30s (through a crown power amp). Would I want to match the curve of the real cab, or is this a case of "try em all and stick with whatever sounds good"?
> ...


Whatever sounds good - but for real, have you tried it?


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## TedEH (Oct 29, 2021)

I've definitely been trying it, but that's what leads me to asking the question.

So, I've been finding that low end, when dealing with guitar models, doesn't quite feel accurate, especially at low gain or clean. All of my tube amps can get _very_ warm when you play them in the room. There's like a bass or sub-bass content maybe, that just fills the room and responds in a particular way.

I was able to get a pretty close tone match for the high gain sound I get out my Mark IV, and that's fine, but I also tried to match my DSL40CR and I can't get it anywhere close to that. The gain character in this DSL is more.... round? There's a lot of bass content if you want it, there's high end but it's not fuzzy, it kinda rounded. If you strum or mute or what have you, there's a sort of warmth that blooms out and fills the room through the cab. So far I can't get the Axe to do any of that. All the Marshall-esque models I've tried so far have a similar basic feel: They're a bit thin and instead of chugs going WOOMPH they just go CHUNK. It's like every model is this ideal tight version of the amp or something. I can't get the models to loosen up like a real amp would.

And I know the default response is going to be "it's because you're using the same cab" - except I'm also using the same cab for the real amps, and the difference is much more pronounced with the real deals. Every setup I'm trying and comparing, real or not, is going through the same cabinet - so it's a perfectly fair comparison.

My theory was that maybe it was the speaker curve getting reset to whatever is default for that amp model - so if you pick a "Brit 800" amp, it's going to give you the curve for a Marshall cabinet which is not what I'm using. So I started swapping the curve in each preset to match the closest guess I have to my own cab (I picked the Recto Strait, which isn't accurate per se, but I couldn't find a better match for "generic v30 cab"). This gets me closer. It's still not quite there, but it's better. I've also been keeping the master on the Crown power amp reasonably low so that I don't do something stupid and blast a whole ton of volume out there - maybe I'm limiting my headroom this way and that's the problem....? Not sure.

I also realized that when I described the Bass 400 model as being weirdly compressed and forward, it was almost entirely the fault of the speaker settings page. It was set to a curve for a 1x15 and was in FRFR mode. If I changed the curve to something from a 4x10 (which is what I'm actually using) that forward emphasis in the lows goes away. Changing from FRFR to SS+Amp mode took the compression/stiffness away. I can't decide if I would have preferred to leave those settings alone. I did check the other presets, they all were in SS+Amp mode already, somehow I'd just missed this one.

Part of the reason I ask that question is because I've not yet tried this thing with any serious volume and I don't know if having the curve match a real speaker is going to become more important once things are loud enough to actually be interacting with that speaker.

tl;dr: I spent a few hours noodling with those speaker curve settings _before_ asking the question.


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## budda (Oct 29, 2021)

Re: amp in the room sounds - what amp are you using in the fm3, and where do you have the master volume (not level) set?

Edit: if you arent posting these on the fractal forum, thats where you're going to get a lot more answers


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## TedEH (Oct 29, 2021)

Yeh very fair. Going to post there soon probably.

Master on the real amps:
Mark IV: Master a hair over 1, because anything more than that will destroy my home, each channel is barely about 2
DSL40CR: Master on ~2, Channels on about ~4

The modelled versions are definitely higher. Maybe that's an element of it for sure. Too early in the morning to try it without bothering neighbours. I've been keeping the Crown pretty low on it's own master volume but it doesn't need much either, since that thing goes to something like 800w in bridged into that 8ohm guitar cab, and up to 1100 @ 4 into the bass cab.


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## Screamingdaisy (Oct 30, 2021)

This is starting to remind me of an old school snax thread.

If I remember correctly, the “guitar amp in the room” crowd would lean towards a tube power amp into a guitar cab with the cab modelling disabled and the “mic’d cab through the mains” crowd would prefer a SS power amp into an FRFR with the Snax modelling the cab tone.

I think that if you’re used to hearing your guitar through IEM then the mic’d tone of the Axe is less of an issue than if you’re used to hearing the backline amp.

IMO, if there’s a drawback to the Axe is that it costs more to get it to sound like a tube amp than it costs to buy a tube amp.


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## budda (Oct 30, 2021)

Screamingdaisy said:


> This is starting to remind me of an old school snax thread.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the “guitar amp in the room” crowd would lean towards a tube power amp into a guitar cab with the cab modelling disabled and the “mic’d cab through the mains” crowd would prefer a SS power amp into an FRFR with the Snax modelling the cab tone.
> 
> ...



How does it cost more to get it to sound like a tube amp? It sounds like a tube amp out of the box .

Fractal also recently implemented FullRes IR's to quell the "amp in the room" thing (and someone got near-identical sounds with the reverb block to boot). I can't say I chase AITR whatsoever, but it's good people have the option.

Pretty much any amplified sound you want is in the unit, it's a case of exploring and asking the right questions to find out how to coax it out.


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## Screamingdaisy (Oct 30, 2021)

Axe + controller + monitor = more than my tube amp and cab.

I know the FM brings down the cost, but FM9 + monitor isn’t cheap either.

Either way, I forgot I’m on SSO and don’t really want to get in a pissing match over modelling.


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## budda (Oct 30, 2021)

Screamingdaisy said:


> Axe + controller + monitor = more than my tube amp and cab.
> 
> I know the FM brings down the cost, but FM9 + monitor isn’t cheap either.



And a high end tube amp + pedalboard + cab is cheaper? 

Compare like to like and get back to me.


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## Screamingdaisy (Oct 30, 2021)

budda said:


> And a high end tube amp + pedalboard + cab is cheaper?
> 
> Compare like to like and get back to me.



I threw in an edit to my last post saying I forgot I was on SSO and didn’t really want to get into a pissing match over modelling, so I’m going to bow out of this one.


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## budda (Oct 30, 2021)

Screamingdaisy said:


> I threw in an edit to my last post saying I forgot I was on SSO and didn’t really want to get into a pissing match over modelling, so I’m going to bow out of this one.



Usually preventable by stating what exactly you mean instead of generalizations .

Example: my axe fx cost less than my old head and cab. When I buy a midi controller, it will cost less than my two strymon pedals. When I buy a monitor it will cost about the same as my PT-2 and a power supply.

You can get a tube amp for $200, doesnt mean it's gonna be comparable to another amp though.

(Sorry Ted, I had time today).


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## TedEH (Oct 30, 2021)

Do I get to be the judge because I opened the thread?

If so: I vote the FM3 is still cheaper. Adding the controller+speaker to it is irrelevant because that's not my use case. I spent $1300 CAD on it and even if you add another 300-ish to get a PA amp to run it through, pretty much any new tube amp is going to be equal or much more. JP2C is $3500 on it's own. 5150 III is $1700-3000 depending on the model. SVT-CL (which is what I was actually comparing this to originally) is $2800 new.

So no, the FM3 was not the more expensive option for me for my use case because:
a) I had the Crown power amp already
b) I play multiple instruments so it's being compared to TWO amps it could potentially replace, not one
c) I wasn't prioritizing cost in my choice in the first place
d) I can do what I want with my money so the argument is moot

Can we move on?

I tried to post on the fractal forums about the cab resonance thing - asking if it really has to match the real cab - and I got such great advice as "well, just don't use other cabs" and "stage tone isn't important" and "go get an FRFR". In other words, nothing that addressed my actual question. I guess I'll figure it out on my own.

It's only been a few weeks and there's so much stuff in this one box, so I'm sure I'll continue to figure stuff out. It would be the same if I bought an actual amp - I'd still have to put in the time turning all the knobs and trying all the things to really understand what you can or can't get out of it.


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## budda (Oct 30, 2021)

Onward!

Have you had a jam with it yet?


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## Screamingdaisy (Oct 30, 2021)

TedEH said:


> Can we move on?



Not my best day on a guitar forum, I’ll give it that.

Seeing as the emphasis seems to have shifted in a more guitar direction, I am curious about how it’s been doing on bass?


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## TedEH (Oct 30, 2021)

I think the focus shifted to guitar just because it's easier to gauge "what a guitar amp should sound like". Bass, IMO has always been very open-ended, and my own tone is generally pretty clean so there's simultaneously more and less to explore in that regard, if that makes any sense. I've been playing both equally, but the guitar stuff is easier to relate on a forum.

Haven't had a jam yet though..... that was gooooing to be tomorrow, but most people bailed. I tend to go into the jam room even when jams are cancelled anyway, because my drum kit is there, it's like a 40 minute drive, and I can't otherwise play drums anywhere, so it ends up becoming drum day - but while I'm there, I've got the freedom to put some volume through some cabs and see what happens, so that might be what happens tomorrow. It would have been ideal to have others there so I can see what happens with other instruments going, but oh well.

I also kinda want to take a picture of the settings on the other amps in the room just so I have a reference point for how they use them. 'Cause I feel like the first hurdle to getting a model to sound good is some familiarity with that amp. The default settings aren't really "appropriate" starting points necessarily, so while some models seem good out of the box, others seem like they need a deep dive before they do their thing, but it's hard to know which is which until you're already noodling with that model.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2021)

I got a chance to try this with some volume through a proper cab today. The effect was..... a bit more pronounced than I would have liked.

We tried to "match" (ish) the way our guitarist uses his Roadster - but the FM3 model was really thin in comparison. I was able to get some of that back with the low resonance control. Rather than doing the sine wave thing, I chugged with some volume while sweeping the speaker LF setting around until the cab sounded properly full. It still didn't quite match the real deal, but it got much closer. I think I'd have to spend a bunch of time tweaking to get it closer, but the point wasn't so much to match the cab as it was to get my answer.

Which seems to be that yes, it does matter. Which is unfortunate, but at least it wasn't incredibly hard to find that spot. That's keeping in mind I was in an ideal setting - more or less in an empty room without anyone to bother me. I don't know that it would have been as easy to do this in a venue with a full room and people also trying to do their setups. And it's incredibly unfortunate that it only applies it to one channel in one preset at a time.

Next time I'm there I might try through the FX loop of the real thing to see if that gets me closer.

Seems to me like I'd either need to eventually upgrade to a power amp that doesn't need to be simulated, or bring a proper tube amp with me and use the effects return. Or just.... keep using the tube amp because it's not going to sound thin when switching cabs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

With bass it didn't seem quite as pronounced - but part of this was that I'm used to using a PA amp for this to begin with. I feel like I might be able to just turn off (or down) the speaker related stuff and be fine with it that way for bass.

Speaking of bass - the cab I have at the jam room reaaaaaaaally doesn't like distortion if the tweeter is on. I have a feeling this is something that my currently-at-home Mesa cab handles a lot better so far.


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## TedEH (Oct 31, 2021)

Super quick update because I discovered a thing:
I've been finding a all of the models to be reaaaaaally bright, moreso than the real equivalents, pretty much regardless of which amp it is. Through the Crown - really bright, needs the resonance tweaked. Through the return of the Mark IV, better, doesn't need the resonance (cause that's disabled anyway) but it's still very bright.

BUT

Into the return of the Mark V:25....... somehow that's the best pairing I've found so far. Amps that people describe as "dark" are actually dark now. I have no idea what's different, but this just works. I noticed this one puts the loop in a different place. The IV puts the loop before the GEQ, so you have to shut it off. The V:25 puts the loop post everything - even the volume knob (since there's no master) so you now have to control volume via the FM3. Makes me wonder if I'd get different results if I crank the master on the IV and control that volume from the FM3 too. I'm not brave enough for that today cause if something goes wrong, the big mark will get BLISTERINGLY LOUD. I'll try it some day.


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## cardinal (Nov 24, 2021)

This is kind of an old thread but still on the front page I guess.

My two cents is that for bass, I've been underwhelmed by the AFXIII. It sounds fine and is useable. But if I use the AFXIII/Crest CA-9 into my Heritage SVT810, it does not have the same warmth and oomph as my actual SVT.

For high gain guitar, I cannot distinguish the AFX from many of real amps that I have. There is some difference with some models and cleaner/midgain tones; the amps have some extra bass/thump/warmth/something that I can't get from the AFX, but it's not super noticeable and I just don't worry about it in the least. But that same thing is more pronounced I think with bass, and I do find it irritating.


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## budda (Nov 24, 2021)

Might be worth a PM to dr. Bonkers on the FAS forum for any tips and tricks on that one.


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## Giest (Nov 24, 2021)

FWIW I've had an Axe FX II XL+ for guitar since about the time they came out. I hardly use it at all, it sounds ok but feels dead. Wouldn't buy again.


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## TedEH (Nov 24, 2021)

cardinal said:


> This is kind of an old thread but still on the front page I guess.


Because it's bass. Nobody cares about bass. 
I kid, mostly.



cardinal said:


> it does not have the same warmth and oomph as my actual SVT


To be fair, that's a pretty big ask. It's been a long time since I tried a real full SVT, but those things are beasts. I find that one thing the FM3 I picked up doesn't quite nail is that low-end rumbly resonance thing you get when a tube amp interacts with a speaker. Every tube amp I own is capable of this room-filling low end kind of deal that I can't describe very well, even if it's not a very bass-forward amp, and I've not figured out how to make the FM3 do the same thing, at least not easily - as a result, I find the Recto models sound a bit wimpy compared to the real deal. As far as bass goes, I was using a solid state power amp to begin with, so I was starting from a place of kind of cold and stiff to begin with. It's possible that I've just not figured out how to make the speaker-page settings do what I want yet.

I still haven't had a chance to play the FM3 with a band yet, just 'cause band things have been going slow lately. But at-home, the FM3 has been beating out the IIP+Crown setup I had going, so I'm reasonably confident I can make it scale up to band volumes. I did crank the thing once and I found it was almost overwhelmingly bass-y compared to my starting point.



Giest said:


> I hardly use it at all, it sounds ok but feels dead.


I think I can understand that. Some amps are VERY immediate in feel, and I don't think any digital solution can emulate that. There _has_ to be some amount of latency to do what it needs to do. Even if it's this micro amount of delay, I do find the "feel" of a lot of the amp sims are very similar by default until you start digging into what makes each model different. I can imagine that bothering some people more than others. It doesn't bug me too much.


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## budda (Nov 24, 2021)

@TedEH you messed with speaker compression/speaker drive at all?


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## Giest (Nov 24, 2021)

Yea I dunno if it's an almost imperceptible delay or what, can't put my finger on it. Almost like I can play harder or louder but the Axe FX doesn't reciprocate the same nuances when I do. I don't feel the same about solid state amps, I can still get that what the french call a certain...I don't know what. Feels dead to me is all, but as a tool it's still useful and I'll never say they can't sound great all the same.


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## cardinal (Nov 24, 2021)

Giest said:


> Yea I dunno if it's an almost imperceptible delay or what, can't put my finger on it. Almost like I can play harder or louder but the Axe FX doesn't reciprocate the same nuances when I do. I don't feel the same about solid state amps, I can still get that what the french call a certain...I don't know what. Feels dead to me is all, but as a tool it's still useful and I'll never say they can't sound great all the same.



With the AFXIII at least, it's very easy IME to over-compress the signal, because it seems thicker and warmer, but it gives that rubbery, slow attack. This is especially with overdriven sounds, but running the input gain/master volume too high even with clean tones does it too. 

It's a bit annoying. Getting that extra bit of sub-bass that @TedEH mentions is easier to get (or get close to) with higher gain/master volume, but it also over-compresses, so I end up with rubbery attack and a blanket-over-the-speakers sound too. 

Ultimately I choose to just give up on that missing bass/sub-bass. It still sounds very good and I play it all the time and enjoy it. But it is not perfect.


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## Giest (Nov 24, 2021)

Yea that sounds about spot on, probably what it is. Thanks for explaining it, maybe I'll goof around with it some more and see if anything can be done.


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## cardinal (Nov 24, 2021)

Giest said:


> Yea that sounds about spot on, probably what it is. Thanks for explaining it, maybe I'll goof around with it some more and see if anything can be done.


Good luck with it. 

Fairly often, I pull out my amps and will do an hour or so of A/Bing them Vs the AFX. I'm constantly surprised by how bright, clanky, and harsh the real amps actually can be. But it's so easy to dial that out with the AFX, but then you lose the in-your-face sound and responsiveness.


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## TedEH (Nov 24, 2021)

budda said:


> @TedEH you messed with speaker compression/speaker drive at all?


Not a whole ton. I mostly just found a curve / LF setting that got me closer to what I was used to, then moved on to noodling with the different models, since it was "close enough". The recto models are the only ones I've tried so far that I think are lacking as a result, so it might be worth going back to it. Marshalls and Marks aren't really all about the low end, IMO, so it's not much of a concern for the sounds I tend to land on.

It sounds kinda counter-intuitive maybe, but I tend to think most "real amps" push sub-bass too far anyway. That's the domain of the bass, and using the bass models there's no shortage of low end.

My original plan was to take the FM3 to a jam (for bass) and play around with the idea of turning the speaker-related settings mostly off. The setup I'm used to wasn't a tube amp to begin with, so I don't think it would sound "wrong" compared to what I'm used to. But who knows. I suspect once jams actually get going again, eventually, I'm going to end up with a "home" patch and a "band" patch that are pretty different from eachother.


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## TedEH (Nov 29, 2021)

I fiiiiiiiiiiinally got to jam a song or two with the FM3 on bass, with a drummer in the room. Seems to do the trick, but as with any other piece of gear, there's some tweaking to do. The sound I went in prepared with was too dark / bass-heavy, which ate up a lot of headoom, so I ended up turning the master on the power amp higher than I usually would. Turning down the bass knob in the SVT model didn't quite have the effect I expected, but we didn't jam for tooo long to spend a lot of time tweaking. I don't like to be that guy who solves mix things by just cranking the volume, but I had some volume to spare, so I know I could have.

I think next time I'm going to try using the portaflex instead, since it seems to get much brighter on its own without throwing extra eqs into the equasion. I could also try turning the gain down, since if it's anything like my IIP, once gain goes up high enough to start compressing, it starts getting darker. There's always EQ to just shelve some bottom out. Now that I think of it, I could probably get some headroom back with a really low hi-pass, since I keep the hi-pass on the power amp enabled anyway.

I have a suspicion that the first sound I came up with would have been a great tone for a lighter band, a rock band, something without mean thundering Mesas to fight with. "My tone" has always been just kinda stupidly bright - as bright as I can go without being just horrible clank noises and nothing else. I've no doubt the unit can do that, I just have to decide on how.

I'm also back to the age old debate of using the power amp volume as the master vs. using the fractal to control the volume. My gut reaction is to do the middle ground: Have the power amp just a little higher than I'd ever expect to need, and do the rest with the FM3.


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## cardinal (Nov 30, 2021)

TedEH said:


> I fiiiiiiiiiiinally got to jam a song or two with the FM3 on bass, with a drummer in the room. Seems to do the trick, but as with any other piece of gear, there's some tweaking to do. The sound I went in prepared with was too dark / bass-heavy, which ate up a lot of headoom, so I ended up turning the master on the power amp higher than I usually would. Turning down the bass knob in the SVT model didn't quite have the effect I expected, but we didn't jam for tooo long to spend a lot of time tweaking. I don't like to be that guy who solves mix things by just cranking the volume, but I had some volume to spare, so I know I could have.
> 
> I think next time I'm going to try using the portaflex instead, since it seems to get much brighter on its own without throwing extra eqs into the equasion. I could also try turning the gain down, since if it's anything like my IIP, once gain goes up high enough to start compressing, it starts getting darker. There's always EQ to just shelve some bottom out. Now that I think of it, I could probably get some headroom back with a really low hi-pass, since I keep the hi-pass on the power amp enabled anyway.
> 
> ...



HPF is a good way to help the bass be heard and sit right among high gain guitars. Unfortunately there isn't a Gallien Krueger model in the AFX, as those punch tight through as well (maybe because the sub lows are already gone). I still have my old 800rb and love it. I feel like the AFX could probably get a more accurate model of that than the SVT if Fractal would try. 

With solid state amps, I think most people tend to set them nearly maxed out and control the volume with the AFX. I think that's more how the amps were intended to operate. With a tube power amp, I think it'll just depend on what you like.


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## TedEH (Nov 30, 2021)

cardinal said:


> I still have my old 800rb and love it.


I know a guy who plays some GK stuff, and it sounds pretty good. Not really "my sound", but I'd be all for having the option to try out.


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## budda (Nov 30, 2021)

Pretty sure Dr Bonkers on the FAS forum posted a GK-esque tweak


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## TedEH (Nov 30, 2021)

I also need to try the FAS bass amp at some point.


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## cardinal (Nov 30, 2021)

budda said:


> Pretty sure Dr Bonkers on the FAS forum posted a GK-esque tweak


I'll have to find that. That'd be cool.


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## TedEH (Mar 13, 2022)

Soooooooooooo here's the "I've been using it at jam for a little while" bump:

Vague/gut take on using FM3 for bass is.....
At home it's fantastic. Lots of tools to nitpick how you want your bass to sound. At jam it's a mixed bag. Lots of tools to shoot yourself in the foot with.

The main thing that's getting to me at the moment is that any bass sound I come up with ends up running out of headroom really quick - which at first I realized was a result of the tube amp sim adding a lot more low-end than I normally would have. I think it's "realistic", but the "realistic" low end of an SVT (or whatever else) is going to put a LOT of demand on your power amp. With my plain preamp, I can keep the pre at half and the power at about half, and I'm audible. If I crank either, I can drown everyone out if I want to. With the FM3, in order to get into "loud" territory, I need to reduce the bass knob on the amp, use the flat speaker curve (so that there's no added "resonance"), hi-pass before the output, stage all the gains so that I'm just short of the output clipping light coming on, and still run the master on the crown at almost full. Unless/until I figure out what's eating up all the headroom, there's nooooo way I could drown everyone out. Given that the FM3 looks like it puts out a hotter signal than the preamp (based on the input light on the Crown?) I'm not quite sure what's happening.

Sooooo I do kinda feel like I'm missing something. At some point, I'll try running the out from the pre and the out from the FM3 into the same interface/settings into reaper and see if I can spot an obvious difference, or maybe I've dialed sounds in a way that just don't make sense. Maybe I'm wrong and the preamp is just a hotter input. Maybe I'm right that something from the sim (resonance?) is eating all the headroom and I'll need to do some creative eq/comp to make up for it. I dunno.

Do I like the sound? Yes. Do I like the loss of headroom though....? Well, no.


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