# Engl OWNERS only. Your advice please



## purpledc (Jul 22, 2012)

This question is geared to the engl OWNERS of present or past. Please spare us the I saw a picture of the guts on the internets or the "my friends, brothers, sisters nephew said that his uncles, nephew from their dads side said his broke downs". I want to hear the "facts" not the "I think because I own a diezel" responses. My concern is over the construction and reliability of these amps. In particular the invader. 

See ive read a lot about these amps having this PCB's and glue inside the amp. My first instinct is to say that sucks must be shit quality. But then my better judgment kicks in and I remember my peavey 6534+. The PCB that the preamp tubes push into was so flimsy I swear I dont know how it survived the retube. But it was flexible, not fragile. I cant help but think "how thick does a pcb have to be?" if plenty of people tour with these things and never have an issue then whats the big deal? Sometime I read peoples posts and they talk as if an amp needs to have bulletproof internals when in reality most of the time the internal parts see little to no outside stresses.

The glue issue is another I find kinda funny. Almost EVERY amp ive ever owned (many) has had hot glue inside to stop certain parts from rattling. Hell a crate I owned even used glue instead of solder which does actually scare me. My mark V has plenty of glue under the hood. 

To get to my point I have lets just say "issues". I have mental conditions that force me to obsess over shit that most people laugh off. This new "issue" being one of them. I scored an invader 100 really cheap and Im thinking of selling my mark V but now im wondering if I should say forget the engl with all im reading about them. Thing is I see a lot of talk but no one actually saying they have had and issue themselves. People say they have heard of breakdowns but ive never seen these posts. This is why I want to hear from the guys who play this gear everyday. 

In the end, Im only a bedroom player so this thing doesnt need to survive a bomb blast. But I dont want to play on a german bugera no matter how good it sounds. But thats part of my problem. I should play it if it sounds good. So many amps are built like a tank yet sound like shit. Basically im asking for guys to tell me to shut up, quit worrying and that ill love the amp. Plus misha use to use one so its gotta be good right? (yes that last part was a joke._)


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## glpg80 (Jul 22, 2012)

Truth of the matter, their power amps are complete junk when considering build quality. They cut alot of corners in the design stages and i am surprised more people do not have problems from them as they took a minimalistic approach. As someone who repairs and designs amplifiers, PA work, and does normal maintenance, i was sad to see the quality that lacked in their power amps. Yes they are expensive, yes they may sound fine, but that is a bird of another feather. Peavey's preamp tube sockets are also direct board mounted and yes that is not to mil-spec qualifications of the 50's or 60's but in today's world cost is more of a problem.

Some of the most sturdy power amps made to date are Mesa's, VHT, QSC, Rivera TB series, Peavey Classic's if you can find them, all in my own experience.

Basically you're getting a production model. Not a one off custom. Glue is acceptable and so is solder. An advantage of glue is that it has a relatively high melting point for heat resistance, is non-corrosive, and is non-conductive. When noise is of concern you have to watch lead placement - glue is absolutely critical and piece of mind to assure proper functionality to prevent a problem before it arises. The other truth is that it is cheap. I would say get over the fact that it is used in guitar amplifiers - it is not going anywhere in production models and does serve a purpose.

The real truth is that a properly laid-out amplifier would not need it to begin with. But once again you're factoring in costs.

If you're shopping for amplifiers based on sound then get the amplifier that you like based on sound. If you're shopping on build quality then shop based on build quality, but know that build quality does not guarantee great sound nor great prices. You will always have compromises - the perfect amplifier does not exist. The sooner you realize this the happier you will be with your end result and will inevitably be able to happily play whatever you find regardless.


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## purpledc (Jul 22, 2012)

That I think is my problem right there. Every time I have an amp that is "built like a tank" It either sounds like shit or just doenst get quite there for me. Then all these amps that are "built like shit" end up sounding amazing to me. I guess at the price I paid for the engl it really doesnt matter. For me sound is paramount but I still dont want to play on a time bomb. And if the amp will survive my bedroom that is my only concern.


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## USMarine75 (Jul 22, 2012)

Sorry for the long post... but here's some PCB vs PTP info:

From Mike Soldano... a pretty well respected amp builder:

Point-to-Point vs. Printed Circuit Boards « Soldano Custom Amplification

From Randall Smith of Mesa:

Articles by Randall Smith - Point to Point Wiring

A good article from another lesser know builder:

Is Point-to-Point Better Than PCB?

From Andy Marshall of THD:

Not all manufacturers choose to use PC boards just to save money. We use them for consistency more than for price, but making a somewhat affordable amplifier is a nice benefit. I don't think that someone should have to be a lawyer or Microsoft Millionaire to be able to afford a new amplifier that is hand-built, reliable and sounds and feels good to play.

If a PC board is designed correctly and the correct components are used, the amplifier production should be absolutely consistent from one unit to the next. No re-routing of traces should ever be necessary to make an amp function or sound right. If you find it necessary to change and re-rout wires in your amps, then you are not in production, but are just making a series of unstable prototypes. Treble reduction to the point where it reduces the clarity of the amplifier is not an acceptable stabilizing technique for either a PTP or PCB amplifier.

Recently, we got a call from a tech complimenting us on our old Plexi model amplifier (that we built between 1990 and 1995), but he said that it was just a little bit "stiff in the high-end" compared to a real Marshall Plexi. To back up his point, he told us that he had a real Marshall Plexi on the bench next to ours and was comparing the two side by side. What he did not seem to realize was that no two Marshall Plexis sound the same. They were terribly inconsistent with their component sources and values, not to mention the inconsistencies in wire routing.

Taking a point to point or a turret-board amplifier, if one moves the wires around, the entire sound and character of the amplifier can change, often dramatically. This is a well-recognized phenomenon.

If you understand these interactions well, you can design a PC board to sound and feel any way you want it to. Furthermore, every one will sound the same. How many times have you plugged into an old Marshall-50 watt head, only to be terribly disappointed by the sound and feel of the amplifier? While this may be caused by poor tubes, at least in part, inconsistencies in the internal layout of the amplifier often play a significant role.

If you understand how one component affects the component next to it and how one trace affects the trace next to it, then you should be able lay out a circuit board correctly the first time, not by building 10 and picking the best one. Mind you, it takes many years of experience to develop the sort of understanding of the capacitive and inductive interrelations involved. In the old days, I did this for a living for other companies, designing circuit boards for the audio sections of amplifiers, mixing consoles, signal processing equipment, etc... While I am under confidentiality agreements with almost all of my former clients, I can tell you that there is hardly a professional recording studio in the US or Europe that does not have some audio circuit board with my layout in some piece of equipment. After a few hundred such projects, one develops an intricate understanding of how traces and components interact.

A number of years ago, Guitar Player magazine did a review of one of our amplifiers. They stated that they, as a general rule, do not care for circuit board amplifiers, but also said that I had addressed every one of their concerns, and that they had nothing bad to say regarding our use of circuit boards. It felt good to see someone start to understand what it is that we do and why.

Certain components throw a rather large field. Others do not. Some components are very susceptible to the fields from other components, while some are not. Components can affect the signal passing through traces, and traces can affect the signal passing through components. It ends up being an enormous network of positive and negative feedback between components within each other's sway. This is why the distance between specific components on the board and the physical orientation of the components relative to one another (rotational orientation, as well as lateral placement) cannot be ignored. Furthermore, which traces are parallel to one another and at what distance, which traces are perpendicular to one another and that what distance, and the amount of ground plane in-between them can seriously affect the overall sound and feel of the finished amplifier.

Most people design circuit boards either haphazardly or for the greatest parts density/easiest and least expensive manufacture. Neither of these methods belongs in a high-end amplifier, and such approaches give PC Board designs a bad name.

If you know what you are doing, a thicker board is better than a thinner board (ours are .093" or 3/32", most are .062 or 1/16) and that thick copper is a good idea (ours is 4 oz, most use 1/2 oz or 1 oz). One of the greatest problems facing most circuit board amplifiers is board flex. Board flex creates metal fatigue in the copper. As the copper cannot really "break", it just crystallizes and makes tons of noise. This is much worse in combo amps, of course. We go to the trouble to support our boards ever few inches. Our design standard is that 100 pounds of force on a 1/4" diameter probe should not be able to flex the board more than 20 thousandths of an inch at any point on the board. All of our amps designs must pass this test. For comparison, most Marshall and Fender circuit boards would break under such force, and would flex more than 3/8 of an inch just before breaking.

Through-plated holes are an absolute must, with solder pads on both sides. This makes it much harder for a repairman to inadvertently lift a pad or a trace by overheating or from poor technique. The way that we have addressed this is to start with boards that are clad with 2 oz copper, and in the through-hole plating process we add another 2 ounces. This leaves us with traces and ground planes of 4 ounces, and through plated holes with 2 oz copper in the holes themselves. I have seen some other people start with 3 oz copper, plating on an additional 1 oz, and I have not like the results I have seen. The through-holes pull out too easily.

Contrary to popular belief, Orange Drop film capacitors are far from great. They are OK for certain position in certain circuits, but their consistency from one to the next is atrocious. Maybe this is part of why so many people who use them in PTP amps find the need to make wire adjustments. This is a big part of what I mean by using the right components.

As for PCB solder joints becoming problematic with time, this is no more a problem than on PTP. A good solder joint with absolute minimum stress on it (using the right component with the right lead length and the right mounting technique) will yield the longest and most consistent life. Assuming that the flow-solder machine is correctly set up, the right solder, right flux, right solder temperature, right flux temperature, right pre-heat, right cooling, etc are done, a flow-soldered board will last longer and have higher quality solder joints than a hand-soldered board. If you doubt this, ask yourself the following questions: How do you decide what solder to use? Do you choose SN60, SN63, SN96, Savebit or some other? How do you decide what flux to use in your solder and how much? How do you decide what temperature to set your iron at? It all makes a HUGE difference in the quality and consistency of your solder joints. If you cannot answer all of these questions, then you cannot even have a clue about the long-term consistency and life expectancy of your products. This, along with countless other points, is part of what separates the hobbyist from the professional.

In a PTP amp, the entire surface of the solder joint is exposed to air, and thus, to corrosion. In a through-plated PCB amp, only the top and bottom surfaces of the solder joint are exposed to corrosion, not the majority of the joint, which is within the through-hole, which is where most of the contact is made.

We use only FAA-approved aircraft assemblers in every stage of our manufacturing. They have to understand all of these points completely. The FAA is even more stringent than the military. Also, the aircraft industry is just about the only industry left that uses PCBs for the electronic components wired to chassis-mounted electro-mechanical components like the controls and connectors. They do this because countless FAA tests have shown that devices built this way last longer and are more reliable and consistent than any other method, even taking cost out of the picture entirely. This is, of course, why we use the exact same methods.

In closing, I absolutely believe that circuit boards, when they are well-designed and laid out, are in all ways superior to other manufacturing techniques when one is building amplifiers in quantities. If I did not believe this firmly, I would not be doing it. This said, I think it is a terribly expensive and cumbersome method for hobbyists to attempt. If you don't have a great deal of experience under your belt designing circuit boards, you won't like the results. Point to point and turret-board techniques offer the hobbyist and the small-scale amp shop the opportunity to easily tweak their designs, as is so often necessary. So, unless you're going to be building 50 amps a month or more, it is probably best to stay away from circuit boards.
__________________


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## neoclassical (Jul 22, 2012)

I had a Fireball 60 and although I thought it looked more like a computer inside than an amp) I was solid and took a ton of abuse. I also swapped tubes in it alot, sometimes multiple multiple times a day. The PCB mounted sockets took it.


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## fitterhappier (Jul 22, 2012)

I had an ENGL Thunder up until recently. Played it nearly every day for at least an hour for nearly a year and a half. Never once had any issues with it.


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## casketshrine (Jul 23, 2012)

I have an ENGL E530 and for what its worth, its built like a fucking tank. No quality issues with it whatsoever. Great little unit that does a whole lot more for what I paid for it.


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## wakjob (Jul 23, 2012)

I have to get inside my Blackmore to fix the input jack because it came loose.

I'll take some pics.

I hear people calling the Engl's the Peavey's of europe, so we'll see.


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## Toshiro (Jul 23, 2012)

The inside of my FB60 was such a joke I had to sell the thing ASAP.  Plastic pots and switches, everything on PCBs, all of it mounted upsidedown....

I had to replace one of the little switches, the channel select, but it did work fine. I just couldn't keep the thing knowing what the build looked like, waiting for something else more costly to break.


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## evilsaint (Jul 23, 2012)

I never have a problem with my ENGLs. And I believe build quality and reliability of them are good.
The only thing makes me to complain is the upside down PCB mounting.

Gut shots of my Invader.


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## snowblind56 (Jul 23, 2012)

I've had my Powerball for 5 years. I've played it just about everyday and I've never had a problem, granted it's been babied and never gigged with.


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## USMarine75 (Jul 23, 2012)

FWIW I think it comes down to the quality of the work done and not the method. I used to do microsoldering on $60M military radars that used PCB. They were slung under and dropped from helicopters and assembled by trained monkeys in the desert. They didn't experience any issues because they were PCB rather than PTP. In fact in most cases you can't get that much shit on a small board if you're not using double sided PCB. In my experience you're better with through the board mounts rather than surface mount, but other than that the real issue is that in the last 20+ years everything has gone from circuits to microcircuits... smaller and smaller with more shit on that board (i.e too much).

But if it's apples to apples I don't think a Matchless PTP board would really outlast a Peavey PCB. It's like comparing a plek job to frets done by hand. IMO a good machine is as good as a person and vice versa. But you also have that F'ing 10% that is a lemon/crap either way.

Personally, I have a Fireball 100, Soldano Hot Rod+ 50, and a Peavey 5150 combo... and they have never experienced any problems. In fact the 5150 travelled all over the world with me and the only thing I've done is change tubes.

Anywho... anyone that is ripping tube sockets off the board is just way too rough. Gently rotate the tube in and out stop raping that shit.


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## purpledc (Jul 23, 2012)

wakjob said:


> I have to get inside my Blackmore to fix the input jack because it came loose.
> 
> I'll take some pics.
> 
> I hear people calling the Engl's the Peavey's of europe, so we'll see.




But you know what that doesnt bother me. Because peaveys are stout fucking amps. I once saw someone post that they dont equate breakdowns and reliability to quality. Seriously? So an amp with thick circuit boards that breaks down is better than an amp with no issues ever with thin ones? Just because the board is thicker? thats all you got? Sounds like justification to me. Thanks guys you made me feel better about this.


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## purpledc (Jul 23, 2012)

evilsaint said:


> I never have a problem with my ENGLs. And I believe build quality and reliability of them are good.
> The only thing makes me to complain is the upside down PCB mounting.
> 
> Gut shots of my Invader.




Ok now I know why guys say they look more like a computer inside than an amp. But then again im pretty sure if you turned your PCB boards over it will look a lot like that too. Worries resolved. Hmmm love that haterade.


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## sakeido (Jul 23, 2012)

I've been bashing my Invader around for a few years now, no problems. Who cares how its made...


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## VESmedic (Jul 23, 2012)

I for one, don't care exactly how something is made, HOWEVER: If you pay 22, 23, 24, and even 4k (Engl SE) for an amp, it better damn well be made alittle bit better than say, a rogue or crate amp. Sure, we pay markup here in the US because of them being a "foreign" company, but still...The more you shell out for an amp, the less corner cutting there should be, period.


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## Enselmis (Jul 23, 2012)

I've never had a problem with mine and have never heard of anyone having a problem with theirs. I'm definitely not going to worry about it until something pops up and says otherwise.


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## MetalDaze (Jul 23, 2012)

This is my go to image for threads like these


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## Sdrizis89 (Jul 23, 2012)

Have an engl Savage for a couple of months now, i play it frequenty and have no issues. Have not gigged with it but from regular playing it is holding up great and sounds amazing.


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## EOT (Jul 23, 2012)

I had an InVader 100 for a while. It didn't seem as stoutly built as a VHT/Fryette, or Diezel, or Mesa for that matter. But it did sound awesome. I didn't have it all that long so I can't say how durable it was/is. And the 5150/5150 ii's don't feel very sturdy either compared to the above mentioned, but they are considered to be very reliable. So yeah....


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## Defrost (Jul 23, 2012)

I've had a Powerball breaking down on me during studio recordings. Smoke, the smell of burning plastic and so on. There was a big burning spot on the PC board. The repair was freaking costly. The repair guy never could find the cause of it all. Luckily there was a 6505 in the studio that helped us finish the album.


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## wakjob (Jul 23, 2012)

purpledc said:


> But you know what that doesnt bother me. Because peaveys are stout fucking amps. I once saw someone post that they dont equate breakdowns and reliability to quality. Seriously? So an amp with thick circuit boards that breaks down is better than an amp with no issues ever with thin ones? Just because the board is thicker? thats all you got? Sounds like justification to me. Thanks guys you made me feel better about this.



Yeah, Peavey's are pretty damn rugged.

I've worked with all forms of amps. TRUE PTP, not trying to start a war, but turret boards are not true PTP. Fiberboard on my tweed deluxe, and PCB in my Marshalls. Funny, I prefer to work on PCB. I just got good at it. Nice neat laid out traces. But some double sided PCB's are a royal pain in the butt!

I don't think you should worry about your Engl. They are great amps that you don't hear/read about being as problematic as some other amps.


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## Larrikin666 (Jul 23, 2012)

I owned an ENGL SE EL34, Fireball 100, e840, e530, and e860. The ONLY problem I encountered was the connector for the reverb tank breaking on one. That had nothing to do with quality though. Totally user error.


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## TheDivineWing22 (Jul 23, 2012)

I've owned both an Engl Invader and the same Engl SE that Larrikin666 was talking about. Both of them served me well with absolutely no problems (aside from the connector that Larrikin666 mentioned...which I actually just fixed tonight ).


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## purpledc (Jul 23, 2012)

Toshiro said:


> The inside of my FB60 was such a joke I had to sell the thing ASAP.  Plastic pots and switches, everything on PCBs, all of it mounted upsidedown....
> 
> I had to replace one of the little switches, the channel select, but it did work fine. I just couldn't keep the thing knowing what the build looked like, waiting for something else more costly to break.




See I dont really see much of what you said as a downside. Many many high end amps use plastic shaft pots. My mesa mark V being one of them. And all jokes of mesas sounding like shit aside they do have a reputation for good build quality. All the input jacks on the mark V are plastic as well. And damn near every single production high gain amplifier utilizes PCB construction.


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## wakjob (Jul 23, 2012)

I would guess that most of us don't know jack about running a high-end amplifier business.

Go to Mouser or Digikey and look at the price break part count for a single resistor. Multiply that out per unit (amp) made.

Then think about all the parts to an amp, not just caps and resistors.

Now think about the building they own with the big utility bills that go with it. And all the people they employ to run a international business. Insurance. Legal professionals. R&D ect...

It's got to be quite a challenge to a company like Engl to get an amp to market in the USA at a price that is competitive.

Maybe Engl should be heralded as geniuses for building an amp in such a way that holds up the way they do, at the price they can sell them for, and still be profitable.


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## VBCheeseGrater (Jul 23, 2012)

I think this thread just proves that well built, high end gear does in no way cure GAS. Good to know for us bottom feeders


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## wakjob (Jul 23, 2012)

vbshredder said:


> I think this thread just proves that well built, high end gear does in no way cure GAS. Good to know for us bottom feeders



Take it from a long time self-professed gear whore. 

Price does not equal tonal bliss. We tend to over hype high priced gear because we paid for it.

I've gotten better at being objectionable in recent years. Now I just grade things according to what works for me. I listen for certain things in tone, and it's gotta be there. Then there's feel, if it doesn't feel right, why bother.

Don't get all envious of the newest high priced guitar toy. The grass is always greener...

Find what works for you and run the hell out of it!


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## wlfers (Jul 23, 2012)

I've had a 570 preamp for 2 and a half years, and a 530 preamp before that. The one issue I've had with the preamp was the power transformer dying- but I bought it used so I don't know the hours played or prior treatment of the preamp.

Here is the inside of the 570, I apologize for the slight blur as its from my phone.


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## Toshiro (Jul 24, 2012)

purpledc said:


> See I dont really see much of what you said as a downside. Many many high end amps use plastic shaft pots. My mesa mark V being one of them. And all jokes of mesas sounding like shit aside they do have a reputation for good build quality. All the input jacks on the mark V are plastic as well. And damn near every single production high gain amplifier utilizes PCB construction.



Mesa don't use pots like this:







I don't miss that amp, though, regardless of build quality.


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## purpledc (Jul 24, 2012)

vbshredder said:


> I think this thread just proves that well built, high end gear does in no way cure GAS. Good to know for us bottom feeders




You are completely correct. When you first get into guitar, a $100 guitar and $50 amp seem like all you need. Then 3 or 4 years later i drop $2500 on a marshall TSL stack. I nearly puked thinking about how much money just went to my little hobby. Over a decade later im still recycling gear every few months. There is no end to it. Even when you find the perfect amp for you your tastes change and or you just get bored and want to try something new. Some people can eat vanilla ice cream their whole life. Im the type of dude who likes some chocolate and rocky road every once in awhile.


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## purpledc (Jul 24, 2012)

Toshiro said:


> Mesa don't use pots like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They may not be a box style potentiometer but make no mistake they are plastic shaft pots and are just as susceptible to shearing as those are. It doesnt really matter if the casing of the pot is metal or plastic considering the amp guts are protected by the chassis of the amp itself. So where these parts are actually susceptible to damage the mesa pots and the engl pots are identical plastic shaft pots. 

here is a picture of the mesa mark V internals. Note the plastic input jacks at the bottom of the picture. plenty of glue and ribbon cables. Also looks to be a nightmare to work on.


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## Toshiro (Jul 24, 2012)

That Mesa is about a thousand times better built than an Engl Fireball. Flying leads on the pots versus soldered right to the board, real metal switches, full size orange drop caps, etc, etc.  

In fact, that amp would be much much easier to get parts for.

Stop worrying about build, and worry about tone. If you really want an Engl, get one.

I have a damn Chinese-made Laney Ironheart now, for fucks sake.  It has chassis mounted tube sockets though.


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## wakjob (Aug 20, 2012)

Engl Blackmore...

Well. What started off as a simple input jack replacement turned into a project.

Gonna replace the preamp tube sockets, and new pots for obvious reasons, someone super glued three of them back on at some point.

And what the hell, why not replace the Wima's with some Sozo's.

Some pretty shoddy solder work...











Board thickness...











Uhhh... ribbon cables... my favorite.






NOT really impressed with the quality in there.

Good thing it sounds decent.


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## purpledc (Aug 20, 2012)

wakjob said:


> Engl Blackmore...
> 
> Well. What started off as a simple input jack replacement turned into a project.
> 
> ...




Its actually amazing how different these amps look inside from one another. I had my invader open while biasing it when i got it and while it didnt look like my old Mark V inside it didnt look like the blackmore. One thing that standsout is the PCB color on your amp. Mine is a much more darker green. As far as the caps go if people really think they make such a huge difference then Im glad my invader has WIMAS. Its part of what makes an engl sound like an engl.


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## wakjob (Aug 20, 2012)

Wima's are a fantastic capacitor. I've got boat loads of em'. I've tried these MKS series in my Marshall. They are radial metallized polyester.

But they just don't compare to old axial NOS film/foil polyester like Phillips/Mullard 'mustard' caps... or the Sozo vintage line.

You have to audition them in different places for different effects. I like the NOS stuff early on in the preamp coupling stages, Sozo vintage in the tone stack, and regular Sozo or even polypropylene (Mojo Dijon) for the phase inverter coupling.

I swapped caps in my Marshall almost weekly for more than six months. It wasn't until I got ahold of NOS stuff that things started to change for the better. In fact, I was stunned with the first chord I hit. It was just shocking, the difference.

PS my Blackmore is a 98', so it might have some bearing on the color of the board.


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## purpledc (Aug 21, 2012)

wakjob said:


> Wima's are a fantastic capacitor. I've got boat loads of em'. I've tried these MKS series in my Marshall. They are radial metallized polyester.
> 
> But they just don't compare to old axial NOS film/foil polyester like Phillips/Mullard 'mustard' caps... or the Sozo vintage line.
> 
> ...




98?!?!?!? I didnt even know the blackmore was made back then. Im actually surprised the blackmore was made at all considering the music mr blackmore has been making recently. Anytime I see a promo for blackmores night I cant help but think of


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## JMP2203 (Aug 21, 2012)

ok. Mesa can be a little bit better made than ENGL 

BUT

ENGL amps have way better metal tone than Mesa

i have e570 and e840 that ITS the metal tone and i use pasive pickups and no boost!

regarding their poweramps, my e840 kills both vht 2502 and mesa 2100 i had in tone and punch, and the build quality in the poweramp its the same to me, the e570 preamp looks a bit more delicated anyway.


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## purpledc (Aug 22, 2012)

JMP2203 said:


> ok. Mesa can be a little bit better made than ENGL
> 
> BUT
> 
> ...




I have to agree with you. Im going to chalk up the build quality differences to just that. Different. I dont think one is better or worse. I think engl chose a different way to make their amps. To me its like this.

Mesa: utilizing high quality vintage type components and build design to create the mesa sound. 

Engl: Utilizing german engineering and modern components to creat a modern sounding amp. 

One brand is your old school stereo that you just love the old school vibe and build for its heritage. The other is your Ipod which just slays in terms of options and capabilities. Sure the mesas may be built like fucking tanks but in my experience engl is the ferrari of amplifiers. And just like ferraris they are known for their performance and sound quality. I tend to think that if engl made an amp the way mesa makes amps, it would sound like a mesa. I also have to ask, just how robust the internals must be if they are not to encounter any type of stress. In other words what is a 1/4" thick PCB gonna do for you when no matter how thick or thin it is its gonna be protected by a steel chassis?


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