# "Shred vs Feel": Why the Beef???



## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

I've noticed over the years that there's--in general terms--a divide between the shred camp and the guys that play with "feeling", so to speak. I never understood this. 

On the one hand, it is entirely possible to shred with feeling. Artists such as Steve Vai, Eric Johnson, Satch, Stanley Jordan and several others have shown us this.

Likewise, just because a solo is slower and more "feel oriented" doesn't mean it takes any less skill to pull of.

I've often seen heated debates about this--much like the tonewood debates (dear god don't resurrect one of those in here...). I just want to know how everyone else feels about this subject. Keep it clean guys. Thanks for stopping by.


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## Nick (Apr 15, 2009)

quick! close pandoras box you fool!


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## troyguitar (Apr 15, 2009)

I'm mediocre at both so I don't judge.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 15, 2009)

one thing I've noticed is that people who only care about shred are often young and immature, and only care about speed, because speed = skill right?

then the older, more mature people are more into getting more out of the guitar i.e. using the clean channel, lead work without wankery, and the sounds you can get out of a guitar that don't sound like a guitar (see Slipknot)

then there are people who can do both and like the mix the two up half and half (see Guthrie Govan), people who can do both but tend to usually only do shred (see Rustey Cooley), and people who can do both but tend to usually only do feel (see Shawn Lane), which I find much more endearing to a guitarist than a guitarist playing to his full ability at all times (which by the way guys, is a bad idea).

me? I love the lead work in Necrophagist, Nevermore, Symphony X, Scar Symmetry, Decapitated and also the solo albums from Vai, Petrucci and Guthrie Govan, but I find that a mixture of the two to make the best possible musical outcome just works for me, which is why I hold the albums from the above bands in such high regard.

there are exceptions to these stereotypes of course, this is just a brief summary of what I have noticed.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

The one does not preclude the other, but it doesn't follow that everyone capable of shredding can play convincingly at a slow tempo with phrasing, bends, and vibrato (feel for want of a better description).

Musicians that succesfully do both have been vaunted for a long while indeed and I think that the debate caught fire when it arrived with the onset of an interest in technical ability on the guitar.

For a long time popular electric guitar was very far behind other instruments in terms of how it was taught, what information was available, and the technical ability of even the most accomplished players when compared to virtuoso violinists, pianists, etc which meant there was an inherent feeling from the old guard that a lot of the technical players gravitated towards that style of playing without being capable of anything else.

In some cases, this was definately true, but it seemed that the most popular criticism of any accomplished player from that period onwards was that he couldn't play with feel and I simply think that it was born out of a sense of inferiority and jealousy on the part of _some _more traditional players.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

Nick said:


> quick! close pandoras box you fool!



ha... yea i was thinking the same thing as i was putting the thread up. but my ipod is on random right now and i keep hearing so many different amazing guitarists w/ completely different styles and i just don't see how anyone could say that one is *better* than another and justify it. they seem to all exist for a reason, ya know?

when i first started REALLY learning guitar i was all about developing speed and accuracy. i felt like "if you can't shred then you ain't shit!" in a way i'm glad i had that attitude because my intense feelings toward it helped me develop an incredible amount of speed/accuracy. but now that i've been there and done that i'm looking more into how i can use all of my techniques to do something more than make people say "wow look at his hands", which they'll still do from time to time. but i've notice that my musical goals have changed drastically and they seem to be continuing to do so daily.

by no means is shredding, sweeping or any other speed intensive technique going to leave my bag of tricks, however.


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## Triple7 (Apr 15, 2009)

Good topic dude. In my opinion I am not really of fan of just shredding like crazy without any feeling or purpose. Don't get me wrong the guys that can do it are obviously talented but I would prefer to hear something with feeling behind it. 

Someone like Jeff Loomis ( who's name I am sure will come up alot in this thread) has the ability to shred like crazy yet manages to put thought and feeling into his solos, it makes them more enjoyable to listen to. Another one would definitely be Steve Vai, that dude goes crazy all over the place but his solos are well constructed and have alot of feeling in them.


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## Uber Mega (Apr 15, 2009)

Personally I don't see why "shred" and "emotion" have to be mutually exclusive by default, as some people make them out to be. There are obviously examples of each, but as the people you listed (Vai etc.) prove, the two can come together spectacularly...everything should be judged on it's own merits, not grouped into the different categories that promote these endless "guitarist A vs guitarist B" wars on youtube 

Some people just have a pretty sucky mindset, I guess


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> ha... yea i was thinking the same thing as i was putting the thread up. but my ipod is on random right now and i keep hearing so many different amazing guitarists w/ completely different styles and i just don't see how anyone could say that one is *better* than another and justify it. they seem to all exist for a reason, ya know?





Thats the bottom line in any discussion of art - you can't say that any one style or exponent is better than another because its all so subjective. Just enjoy whatever you listen to and realise that the Shred vs Feel debate has long been proven to be pointless


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## OzoneJunkie (Apr 15, 2009)

A way I tend to look at it: supposing everyone had the same technical abilities. Does the solo/phrase I just heard still have meaning to me/the song/etc?

At times, when listening to some more shreddy type of stuff - I'll hear, say, a descending scale/pattern, and actually find myself musically tired of the phrase before it even finishes.

Having said all that, I have to admit I'm guilty of liking (and playing) ego-based shred stuff sometimes...


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

OzoneJunkie said:


> Having said all that, I have to admit I'm guilty of liking (and playing) ego-based shred stuff sometimes...



i think a lot of us are guilty of that. sometimes you get really into your solo and you just want to throw something out there that'll make whoever's watching you be like WHOOOOAAAA WTF?!?!?!?! DO THAT AGAIN!!!!

but that's generally what i try to use my shred stuff for now. get em into a groove and then give them a complete mind fuck. and then chill it back out leaving them dying for more.


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## troyguitar (Apr 15, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> For a long time popular electric guitar was very far behind other instruments in terms of how it was taught, what information was available, and the technical ability of even the most accomplished players when compared to virtuoso violinists, pianists, etc



This is still true today IMO


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 15, 2009)

yeah, if a guy does purely high-speed shred I don't think it sounds good at all. Rustey Cooley and John Petrucci are great examples of this. when they are playing musical stuff I couldn't be more awake, but when they are playing a 2745 note-per-second shred solo I just think it sounds really awful. Jeff Loomis is awesome because he never exceeds that "speed-barrier". well done Jeff Loomis


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> This is still true today IMO





i've played with so many people that see me sweep and immediately want me to teach them to play. so i decide to teach them. i give them scales and picking etudes to practice... NOT INTERESTED.

"can you teach me to sweep, man?" most annoying question ever.



Scar Symmetry said:


> yeah, if a guy does purely high-speed shred I don't think it sounds good at all. Rustey Cooley and John Petrucci are great examples of this. when they are playing musical stuff I couldn't be more awake, but when they are playing a 2745 note-per-second shred solo I just think it sounds really awful. Jeff Loomis is awesome because he never exceeds that "speed-barrier". well done Jeff Loomis



francesco fareri comes to mind...


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> This is still true today IMO



To a much lesser extent 

If you look at the techniques of Shawn Lane, Marshall Harrison, Brett Garsed, Allan Holdsworth, Frank Gambale etc.....they really are beyond the reach of most guitar players so we have our virtuosi at the very peak of the instrument, and the amount of resources availlable is simply staggering.

I think the general level is a lot higher, but the average level of rock guitarists isn't on par with the average level of violinists - for example there's a tendancy to still treat arpeggios as something amazing on a guitar, but they're just standard vocabularly for most other instruments


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## liquidcow (Apr 15, 2009)

Shred is just another kind of feel to me, just like I might play something more slow and steady when going for, say, a more sombre feel, I might play something shreddy when going for a chaotic or angry feel. Like people say, the two are not mutually exclusive. I'm not one of those people that judges music on how talented the performers appear to be. I would neither dislike a band simply because they're not as accomplished as someone else, not like a band purely because they're incredibly technically proficient. I do agree that it is boring when people over-do it or do nothing but shred, though.


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

for the first few years of playing between the age of 11 to about 17 all i cared about was technique. but that was when shrapnel was in full force and all the shredders started getting killer gigs with big name bands. i actually quit guitar for about 5 years, didnt even own one and durring that time of not thinking so musically i just listened to music and soaked it in alot more than when i was always trying to be impressed. once i started playing again i had a new appreciation for melody and still had the technique i built up when i was a super aggressive teenager. its 2009, great guitar players usually have both. if you only have a great sense of melody thats fine with me but if you only have speed ill be bored to death after 5 minutes.


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## Triple7 (Apr 15, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> yeah, if a guy does purely high-speed shred I don't think it sounds good at all. Rustey Cooley and John Petrucci are great examples of this. when they are playing musical stuff I couldn't be more awake, but when they are playing a 2745 note-per-second shred solo I just think it sounds really awful. Jeff Loomis is awesome because he never exceeds that "speed-barrier". well done Jeff Loomis


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## Excalibur (Apr 15, 2009)

"Feel" and "Emotion" are bullshit idioms devised by ignorant people.
I don't see how anyone can gauge how much emotion one puts into his/her work.


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## HeavyMetal4Ever (Apr 15, 2009)

There's nothing wrong with being able to shred, but it quickly becomes tedious if it's all you do. On the other side of the coin, playing the same old tired blues licks over and over again "with feeling" will become just as tedious just as quick.

For me, it's not the style or technique, but how you use it. Anything, no matter how awesome, will become stale if it's overused.

Just my 2 cents.

Rock on!


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> "Feel" and "Emotion" are bullshit idioms devised by ignorant people.
> I don't see how anyone can gauge how much emotion one puts into his/her work.



truth. i just use those words because that's how they're commonly described.


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

i will say this though, i love watching a shredder just fuckin go off unacompanied. that i can watch all day long as long as they have a big enough bag of tricks.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

HeavyMetal4Ever said:


> There's nothing wrong with being able to shred, but it quickly becomes tedious if it's all you do. On the other side of the coin, playing the same old tired blues licks over and over again "with feeling" will become just as tedious just as quick.
> 
> For me, it's not the style or technique, but how you use it. Anything, no matter how awesome, will become stale if it's overused.
> 
> ...



my thoughts exactly. i see these bullshit comparisons on youtube all the time "Buckethead vs Slash vs Herman Li"... wtf? and then when you read the simple-minded comments people make... UGGHH drives me crazy.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> "Feel" and "Emotion" are bullshit idioms devised by ignorant people.
> I don't see how anyone can gauge how much emotion one puts into his/her work.



I think that decrying feel or emotion as bullshit is equally ignorant to be 100% honest because the whole point about making an emotional connection through music is being able to clearly understand what the artist wishes the music to convey - there are a lot of people who use those terms without exactly quantifying their relative meaning but saying they're simply worthless?

I won't ever agree on that.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

a7stringkilla said:


> i will say this though, i love watching a shredder just fuckin go off unacompanied. that i can watch all day long as long as they have a big enough bag of tricks.



that too. i actually went to jam w/ some guys one time and they told me. "why don't you just go ahead and play something first and we'll see if it's even worth it." so i just went all out. insane sweep and shred runs. tapping and sliding all over the place. so after about 5 min of being in my own world i thought, "hey... maybe i should ask these guys if it's worth it yet..."

they were too intimidated to even pick their instruments up. i don't know why speed intimidates people so much. they didn't even give me a chance to show them that i could use it musically because they wouldn't jam with me after that.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> truth. i just use those words because that's how they're commonly described.



They're in common useage because they're accurate. People either feel music, or they don't but its all subjective so there's no point in trying to look for futher definitions when the ones we have, albeit very personal, are entirely suitable for the purposes of any discussion.


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## Excalibur (Apr 15, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> I think that decrying feel or emotion as bullshit is equally ignorant to be 100% honest because the whole point about making an emotional connection through music is being able to clearly understand what the artist wishes the music to convey - there are a lot of people who use those terms without exactly quantifying their relative meaning but saying they're simply worthless?
> 
> I won't ever agree on that.


I suppose it's just semantics and all.
Instead of people saying "so and so has no emotion in his playing", it'd be better of them saying "This people doesn't evoke any emotion in me, but I'm sure it does in others".


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> "Feel" and "Emotion" are bullshit idioms devised by ignorant people.
> I don't see how anyone can gauge how much emotion one puts into his/her work.



dude, i would REALLY like to see how you play. do you have any vids or music up anywhere? very curious to see or hear someone play without channeling any emotion.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> I think that decrying feel or emotion as bullshit is equally ignorant to be 100% honest because the whole point about making an emotional connection through music is being able to clearly understand what the artist wishes the music to convey - there are a lot of people who use those terms without exactly quantifying their relative meaning but saying they're simply worthless?
> 
> I won't ever agree on that.



i think the terms are bullshit depending on who say it. if someone says it simply because they're incapable of playing fast then it's bullshit. if they can and choose to use it musically (or show some restraint) i think their argument holds much more water.


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## kmanick (Apr 15, 2009)

a mixture of both is ideal.
I love shreddrs that can make a guitar scream.
check out his Andy James clip (sounds like a backing of "windows to the soul")
he mixes it up here pretty nicely


Andy is defintely one of my favs 

love the full out wanking too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVr0j6O7j88&feature=related


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

kmanick said:


> a mixture of both is ideal.
> I love shreddrs that can make a guitar scream.
> check out his Andy James clip (sounds like a backing of "windows to the soul")
> he mixes it up here pretty nicely
> ...




sounds like music to me...


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> i think the terms are bullshit depending on who say it. if someone says it simply because they're incapable of playing fast then it's bullshit. if they can and choose to use it musically (or show some restraint) i think their argument holds much more water.



Thats somewhat out of context. 

The terms in and of themselves are accurate in that they are ways of communicating qualities we understand in music so we can discuss it with a common ground as a basis for debate, not how those terms are subsequently used. 

Using those terms to criticse someone's playing when the person doing so can't shred is where the whole Shred vs Feel debate started and its been nonsense for a very long time 



Excalibur said:


> I suppose it's just semantics and all.
> Instead of people saying "so and so has no emotion in his playing", it'd be better of them saying "This people doesn't evoke any emotion in me, but I'm sure it does in others".



Thats the thing dude, its all totally subjective. Perhaps we do need to be more careful when using those terms because as you say, what some percieve as emotion, others don't - music isn't all things to all people and so on


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

good lord!!!! that second andy james vid is insane. full on shred AND its very tastefully done. nothing misplaced or forced. see when i dump on cooley its cause he cant do that.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Thats somewhat out of context.
> 
> The terms in and of themselves are accurate in that they are ways of communicating qualities we understand in music so we can discuss it with a common ground as a basis for debate, not how those terms are subsequently used.
> 
> ...



agreed 



a7stringkilla said:


> good lord!!!! that second andy james vid is insane. full on shred AND its very tastefully done. nothing misplaced or forced. see when i dump on cooley its cause he cant do that.



when i see cooley play i usually think things like "wow that was a cool lick" or "wow that was a cool run", etc. but i don't think i've ever listened to an entire cooley song or paid much attention to his solos as a whole simply because there's so much in it that seems to be mindless shred filler.


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## vampiregenocide (Apr 15, 2009)

I don't like the idea of relying on technical ability to impress others over just writing good music. I see people solo and very rarely these days am I impressed, because its the same old thing and doesn't hold any weight to it. There are a select few solos that I think, 'wow, that is really beautiful'. Often they are simple too. 

I personally don't go out of my way to play faster than I need to. I just play stuff that really clicks with me, even if its noobishly simple.

Bottom line, nothing wrong with shredding if it is tasteful.


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

and im still waiting for excalibur to show us his skills!!!!


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## darbdavys (Apr 15, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> yeah, if a guy does purely high-speed shred I don't think it sounds good at all. Rustey Cooley and John Petrucci are great examples of this. when they are playing musical stuff I couldn't be more awake, but when they are playing a 2745 note-per-second shred solo I just think it sounds really awful. Jeff Loomis is awesome because he never exceeds that "speed-barrier". well done Jeff Loomis


I don't like Cooley's work at all. of course I respect him as a musician, and a very technical one, but that robotic stuff just doesn't appeal me. As for Petrucci, his songwork totally outweighs his solo speed. Not many of DT songs are written not by Petrucci. He's a very gifted musician IMO, and uses his gift to great success 
My fav guitarist is Loomis, his solos are like charismatic, I just want to listen to them more and more  and songs composed by him are totally awesome, too.
And I love Suiçmez's work, too. The songs are really aggressive and technical, and the solos aren't all like "OMFG, NEADZ MOAR SPEED, PPLZ NEED TOO THENK I IS PLAEEING FOOKING AWEZUM". they are really aggressive, too, which is kinda hard to do to a solo. And he uses a Xiphos


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> I don't like Cooley's work at all. of course I respect him as a musician, and a very technical one, but that robotic stuff just doesn't appeal me. As for Petrucci, his songwork totally outweighs his solo speed. Not many of DT songs are written not by Petrucci. He's a very gifted musician IMO, and uses his gift to great success
> My fav guitarist is Loomis, his solos are like charismatic, I just want to listen to them more and more  and songs composed by him are totally awesome, too.
> And I love Suiçmez's work, too. The songs are really aggressive and technical, and the solos aren't all like "OMFG, NEADZ MOAR SPEED, PPLZ NEED TOO THENK I IS PLAEEING FOOKING AWEZUM". they are really aggressive, too, which is kinda hard to do to a solo. And he uses a Xiphos



i think SOME of petrucci's solos can sound a bit mechanic. a few of them on the awake album just sounded like picking etudes to me. but then other solos of his i think are constructed really well. i'm on the fence with him. 

i definitely learned a thing or 2 from his rock discipline video though. he knows his shit.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> I don't like Cooley's work at all. of course I respect him as a musician, and a very technical one, but that robotic stuff just doesn't appeal me. As for Petrucci, his songwork totally outweighs his solo speed. Not many of DT songs are written not by Petrucci. He's a very gifted musician IMO, and uses his gift to great success
> My fav guitarist is Loomis, his solos are like charismatic, I just want to listen to them more and more  and songs composed by him are totally awesome, too.
> And I love Sui&#231;mez's work, too. The songs are really aggressive and technical, and the solos aren't all like "OMFG, NEADZ MOAR SPEED, PPLZ NEED TOO THENK I IS PLAEEING FOOKING AWEZUM". they are really aggressive, too, which is kinda hard to do to a solo. And he uses a Xiphos



hell yeah dude! neither guitarist overplays their talent, and some of Suicmez' solos on Epitaph are just sheerly beautiful. having said that Christian Muenzner from Obscura did a lot of cool solos on that album and I can never remember who does which.

looking in the booklet might help but that's too much effort


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## Excalibur (Apr 15, 2009)

a7stringkilla said:


> dude, i would REALLY like to see how you play. do you have any vids or music up anywhere? very curious to see or hear someone play without channeling any emotion.


It's not possible to do any action that isn't driven by emotion.
I'm crap anyways, so what would that prove? Do you expect me to be some sort of bedroom shredder ?



ShadyDavey said:


> Thats somewhat out of context.
> 
> The terms in and of themselves are accurate in that they are ways of communicating qualities we understand in music so we can discuss it with a common ground as a basis for debate, not how those terms are subsequently used.
> 
> ...


I totally agree, it's all subjective, but people don't seem to realize that 

And on the subject of Suicmez, I think the guys a pretty damn good writer and pretty good player, I love his lead work too, but Tech Death just doesn't do it for me


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## darbdavys (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> i think SOME of petrucci's solos can sound a bit mechanic. a few of them on the awake album just sounded like picking etudes to me. but then other solos of his i think are constructed really well. i'm on the fence with him.
> 
> i definitely learned a thing or 2 from his rock discipline video though. he knows his shit.


I don't say all of his solos are mechanic. Suspended Animation proves that. And about knowing how to play, he's one of the best in doing that IMO 

and about Muezner, sure he has done a few solos on Epitaph album, but the songs were still composed by Muhammed. and almost nothing can beat Advanced Corpse Tumor and Fermented Offal Discharge solos


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## sevenstringj (Apr 15, 2009)

The problem with shred, even shred with feeling, is that the underlying music tends to be hackneyed. Early '90s Megadeth was a rare instance where the underlying music was interesting AND the soloing was both technical and tasteful.

Shredding is also given a bad name by those who shred over everything indiscriminately, and who think a few token bends = feeling.

Conversely, it's just as silly when you hear advice on playing with feel from someone who can barely strum a chord. And not just because they can barely reach the guitar dangling below their crotch.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> I don't say all of his solos are mechanic. Suspended Animation proves that. And about knowing how to play, he's one of the best in doing that IMO
> 
> and about Muezner, sure he has done a few solos on Epitaph album, but the songs were still composed by Muhammed. and almost nothing can beat Advanced Corpse Tumor and Fermented Offal Discharge solos



no. they're not ALL mechanic by any means. i've just heard a few that i thought were. if you want examples you'll have to let me break out the ipod...


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## Anthony (Apr 15, 2009)

Reading this thread, I really think Per Nilsson is probably one of the best players in terms of keeping things fast, but emotional and creative. He's an extremely overlooked guitarist.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> The problem with shred, even shred with feeling, is that the underlying music tends to be hackneyed. Early '90s Megadeth was a rare instance where the underlying music was interesting AND the soloing was both technical and tasteful.
> 
> Shredding is also given a bad name by those who shred over everything indiscriminately, and who think a few token bends = feeling.
> 
> Conversely, it's just as silly when you hear advice on playing with feel from someone who can barely strum a chord. And not just because they can barely reach the guitar dangling below their crotch.







Anthony said:


> Reading this thread, I really think Per Nilsson is probably one of the best players in terms of keeping things fast, but emotional and creative. He's an extremely overlooked guitarist.



he must be. i've never heard of him. youtubing now...

and you know... even guys like stevie ray vaughn do things that i think sound like shredding. he just does it, as previously described, _tastefully_


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## Excalibur (Apr 15, 2009)

a7stringkilla said:


> and im still waiting for excalibur to show us his skills!!!!



I don't have any, and if I did I certainly wouldn't show them to you


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> and about Muezner, sure he has done a few solos on Epitaph album, but the songs were still composed by Muhammed. and almost nothing can beat Advanced Corpse Tumor and Fermented Offal Discharge solos



yeah I know that dude, but this thread is about lead work 



Anthony said:


> Reading this thread, I really think Per Nilsson is probably one of the best players in terms of keeping things fast, but emotional and creative. He's an extremely overlooked guitarist.



^^ this a million times over.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

just listened to nilsson. i like... never actually listened to scar symmetry before. album suggestions? hell... for that matter. any guitarists you think bring skills w/o feeling the need to run mindlessly through scales please throw them out there and suggest albums if you can.


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## demontamer (Apr 15, 2009)

This is really one of the best question ever formulated...
I think that guys like Jason Becker and Jeff Loomis could really do both...and some other guys...like for example Herman Lee(the guy from Dragonforce that does nothing that steal old power metal ideas from the 80s)does nothing but speed and speed and speed...
Some guys that plays technical and fast licks,sometimes when asked to do something melodical and slow gets angry...

Days ago one of my friend that plays on a band of thrash metal here in Italy ask me to play a solo for one of the new songs of his band.
He asked me to do some melodic oriented stuff...he says that he likes the way I put melody on my stuff...and I'm not a technical player...I try,but I'm not so technical.
When I ended the solo,it sounded so Swedish Melodic Death Metal,kinda like In Flames and Arch Enemy with a 80's Classic Metal flavour...I really liked it...

He liked it too,but he said that it wasn't so technical..."Hey there's no sweep in it!!!"

And there's one of the reason why I don't like Sweep so much nowadays...it's a great technique,but now it seems so abused by everyone,that if years ago could sound innovative,now sounds sooo old...
And I can't do Sweep picking...eheheheh

So,I like shredding but with heart and soul...vulgar displays of shredding serves only to make the kids that pick up an axe run away scared and stop try it....

P.S: I suggest Armageddon's First Record...Crossing The Rubicon...And everything from Alex Skolnick.


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## Excalibur (Apr 15, 2009)

demontamer said:


> This is really one of the best question ever formulated...
> I think that guys like Jason Becker and Jeff Loomis could really do both...and some other guys...like for example Herman Lee(the guy from Dragonforce that does nothing that steal old power metal ideas from the 80s)does nothing but speed and speed and speed...
> Some guys that plays technical and fast licks,sometimes when asked to do something melodical and slow gets angry...
> 
> ...


As much as I love AJ, he's kinda sloppy 
In my opinion, I can't stand sweeps, I prefer to string skip and legato all my arps.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

demontamer said:


> "Hey there's no sweep in it!!!"



sweeps are ABUSED. it's all anyone wants to do. i actually find it easier than alternate picking. now that i can do it i hardly ever use them in solos. i tend to break the arpeggios up and only play parts of them at a time. it just sounds cooler to me. and when i break them up i find i can do more original things with them. 

**thanks for the music suggestions!


----------



## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> The problem with shred, even shred with feeling, is that the underlying music tends to be hackneyed. Early '90s Megadeth was a rare instance where the underlying music was interesting AND the soloing was both technical and tasteful.





Even Marty Friedman said that prior to Megadeth he didn't play rhythm guitar in the sense that a lot of us would understand it - he simply laid down nearly static chord vamps to solo over and thats been the problem for a lot of guitar players before and since.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> I prefer to string skip and legato all my arps.



i've been doing that a lot lately. that and tapping arpeggios. but i do some pretty cool (i guess that might just be my opinion) extended sweep arpeggios with slides in between and things like that. (forgive the shitty terminology)

but the straight up and down sweep thing got old for me as soon as i got the motion down.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> sweeps are ABUSED. it's all anyone wants to do. i actually find it easier than alternate picking. now that i can do it i hardly ever use them in solos. i tend to break the arpeggios up and only play parts of them at a time. it just sounds cooler to me. and when i break them up i find i can do more original things with them.
> 
> **thanks for the music suggestions!



Sweeps are indeed abused. People get so caught up in the technique itself that they rarely use it in a musical manner. Its not as bad these days with a little more awareness of harmony but you could invariably guarantee that for years and years 95% of metal guitarists would sweep an Em arpeggio over an Em chord and probably without the barest of thought to the grouping of the notes, the inversion of the arpeggio, or the harmony produced - thank god now people think about substituion and superimposition as well as odd-note groupings and actually varying the technique to incorporate other elements.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

ShadyDavey said:


> Sweeps are indeed abused. People get so caught up in the technique itself that they rarely use it in a musical manner. Its not as bad these days with a little more awareness of harmony but you could invariably guarantee that for years and years 95&#37; of metal guitarists would sweep an Em arpeggio over an Em chord and probably without the barest of thought to the grouping of the notes, the inversion of the arpeggio, or the harmony produced - thank god now people think about substituion and superimposition as well as odd-note groupings and actually varying the technique to incorporate other elements.



my thoughts exactly. i first noticed it when i played with this one guy back in college. he was the most irritating person to play with. all his songs were this exact formula...

thrashy riff... followed by an out of place breakdown... over the break down he'd just sweep an arpeggio over and over and over and over and over... the same arpeggio at that. i wanted to beat him w/ his own guitar.


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## jacksonplayer (Apr 15, 2009)

As a creative instrumental musician, the ONLY important thing is to find your own voice on the instrument, whatever that voice may be. If the music in your head consists of 30-notes-per-second runs, then go with it and fully develop the technique to bring that "inner music" to life. And some people are going to criticize and disparage it. Screw 'em. If you don't generate criticism of whatever you do, you're not trying very hard.

Conversely, popping a video up on YouTube of you playing a fast bunch of stuff just for the sake of showing you can do it is not what I would call a creative act.

Usually, I can tell the "creative shred" from the "mechanical shred" pretty easily. Ultimately, many of us do some of both, since we're only human.


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## darbdavys (Apr 15, 2009)

ffs, i can sweep pick, but I'm abso-fucking-lutely shit in alternate  sweep don't even need exercises for synchronisation, you just need to practice to get it sped up, while on alternate, synchronisation is a problem in alternate. 

(can someone recommend some songs to learn to improve my alternate? I hate exercises  And I want to play NP asap, i wan only do sweeps on their solos )


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

i TRY to reserve the mechanical shred for practice. i usually practice all of my runs and things that i could potentially use in improv MUCH faster than i'd ever actually use them musically just to make it easier on myself when i actually do need them. but i'll admit i do had some straight up raw shred in some of my solos if i feel it might fit. sometimes it doesn't but i figure fucking up is part of the learning process. 



darbdavys said:


> ffs, i can sweep pick, but I'm abso-fucking-lutely shit in alternate  sweep don't even need exercises for synchronisation, you just need to practice to get it sped up, while on alternate, synchronisation is a problem in alternate.
> 
> (can someone recommend some songs to learn to improve my alternate? I hate exercises  And I want to play NP asap, i wan only do sweeps on their solos )



i recommend to everyone to check out john petrucci's rock discipline. i'm sure there are other videos out there and everyone else please chime in. but that guy has some SICK picking etudes that if you sit down and practice them long and hard you have no choice but to get better.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> ffs, i can sweep pick, but I'm abso-fucking-lutely shit in alternate  sweep don't even need exercises for synchronisation, you just need to practice to get it sped up, while on alternate, synchronisation is a problem in alternate.
> 
> (can someone recommend some songs to learn to improve my alternate? I hate exercises  And I want to play NP asap, i wan only do sweeps on their solos )



I'll respectfully disagree on the grounds that note seperation is a huge bugbear of mine and I like to hear every single note in an arpeggio which becomes an issue with some of the heavy lead tones - some synchronisation is a good thing  

re: alternate picking. Yep, the Rock Discipline DVD is very good, as much maligned as he is Rusty did some cool stuff in the "Art of Picking" DvD, and for chordal/intervallic stuff check out Steve Morse/Al DiMeloa/John Maclaughlin.....not forgetting the very first Intense Rock video that Paul Gilbert made!


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## Excalibur (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> i've been doing that a lot lately. that and tapping arpeggios. but i do some pretty cool (i guess that might just be my opinion) extended sweep arpeggios with slides in between and things like that. (forgive the shitty terminology)
> 
> but the straight up and down sweep thing got old for me as soon as i got the motion down.


I sure love tapping my arps too, but only linear shapes


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

Excalibur said:


> I sure love tapping my arps too, but only linear shapes



that's all i know how to do for now. i think michael romeo can tap the "sweep shapes" (again forgive my shitty music vocabulary)


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## lucasreis (Apr 15, 2009)

To me there are three main kinds of shredding:

1. Tasteful 
2. Filler
3. Jack off/Show off

1 - Yes, it&#180;s possible to shred with feeling, we all know it. The kind of shred that Petrucci, Loomis, the Scar Symmetry guys and others do.

2 - Pointless solos just to fill the music because it&#180;s supposed to be metal or whatever. Lots of Metalcore bands have these ones...

3 - When a guitarrist keeps shredding the fuck out of his guitar for 5 minutes on stage. Honestly? To me, its sucks, it&#180;s not musical, it&#180;s like masturbating with the instrument. Zakk Wylde, etc.



Anyway, about shred vs feeling. I think that, if the music is good, it is good, period. I like a range of bands from Ramones to Scar Symmetry. Punk Rock can be extremely simple and tasteful, and Progressive Metal can also have a lot of feeling and meaning. Good music is good music, regardless of the way it&#180;s played.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

i like zakk... 
but i do get your point


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## darbdavys (Apr 15, 2009)

lucasreis said:


> To me there are three main kinds of shredding:
> 
> 1. Tasteful
> 2. Filler
> ...


4th - solo battles. when two guitarists keep shredding the fuck out of their guitars for 5minutes on stage


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> 4th - solo battles. when two guitarists keep shredding the fuck out of their guitars for 5minutes on stage



it was pretty awesome when loomis and broderick did it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5zV...6EFAC5691&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=7

clearly just an exhibition match but i enjoy it.


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Apr 15, 2009)

I shred, I feel. Fuck the naysayers.


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## darbdavys (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> it was pretty awesome when loomis and broderick did it.
> 
> 
> 
> clearly just an exhibition match but i enjoy it.



Yea, seen it shitloads of times, just sexy


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> I shred, I feel. Fuck the naysayers.



i can dig it



darbdavys said:


> Yea, seen it shitloads of times, just sexy



those 2 blow my mind


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## MFB (Apr 15, 2009)

darbdavys said:


> 4th - solo battles. when two guitarists keep shredding the fuck out of their guitars for 5minutes on stage



What about the 20 minute guitar battle with Paul Gilbert and some other guitarist I can't remember? Surely, you don't find Paul to be an emotionless shredder?


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

MFB said:


> Surely, you don't find Paul to be an emotionless shredder?



i certainly hope not. but in this world anything is possible.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

MFB said:


> What about the 20 minute guitar battle with Paul Gilbert and some other guitarist I can't remember? Surely, you don't find Paul to be an emotionless shredder?



Not really, but after 20 minutes I'd probably have left the room for a drink


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## MFB (Apr 15, 2009)

Granted, he doesn't play like he's tearing his heart out emotion, he plays with a look of "this is more fun than _____"


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## Triple-J (Apr 15, 2009)

I like both as long as they are well constructed and composed as I love to hear guitar parts that take me somewhere have peaks + drops and a payoff cause that's what really gets my attention and inspires me, I just don't give a shit about parts that just blaze past my ear in a blur or drudge along lost and directionless at a pedestrian pace.


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## cyril v (Apr 15, 2009)

I dunno... i think it depends, usually the people complaining are the ones that can't do it and therefore dismiss it as BS for no reason. someone posted a vid a few days ago of Andy James just doing insane shred for like 3 minutes straight. I could listen to that all day.

name some examples of shredders that aren't worth listening to, because all the stuff I listen to is very musical and i really haven't come across too many that don't have a really good amount of feel with their playing.

Rusty Cooley?


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## S-O (Apr 15, 2009)

Shred is not the only genre that can lack emotion/feel. Fuck anyone who thinks that by playing the blues means you play with feeling. Beautiful phrasing is beautiful, regardless of speed. Shitty phrasing is shitty, no matter what genre.

Good phrasing is a skill, just as much as playing 3nps sixteenthnote triplet sequences at 160BPM is. Both have their.

Shawn Lane had orgasmic phrasing, but couyld also fucking rip and burn on the guitar/piano.

Playing with great phrasing is something you have and are born with, don't have, or have worked you fucking ass off to get it, I don't have it, yet. I have been working on it. A lot.


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## shaneroo (Apr 15, 2009)

feel is the emotion that the music portrays.... has nothing to do with playing super fast, or bends and vibrato. 
i still go back to nirvana (nevermind) and feel tons of emotion from the vocals and even the playing. 
the fire that malmsteen gave off on rising force was amazing.
to me, buckethead's music has some of the least amount of "feel"......... (just my opinion)..... however, it almost seems to be purposely robotic. and i love it! and yes, i'm not talking about Coma or something.

i'm probably kicking a dead horse here, seeing as i'm too lazy to read most of the posts.
however, i comment on this topic because it does come up alot.
my two pints. 
word.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

i'm just glad we can all agree


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## Arctodus (Apr 15, 2009)

people tend to forget that there used to not be "shred" guitar but rather playing fast notes was a given on a guitar. Listen to the real men of guitar way back. Les paul, Chet Atkins, Jerry Reed, Django Reinhardt, Dick Dale.. and many others. They where picking fast long before anything was thought of it.

Shred came about in the mid 70's when people where focused on doing nothing but playing the guitar fast on an electric guitar. You can combine both shred and feeling but it all comes down to the person who is playing it and how they do so. Rhythm, you have it or you don't.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

shaneroo said:


> feel is the emotion that the music portrays.... has nothing to do with playing super fast, or bends and vibrato.
> i still go back to nirvana (nevermind) and feel tons of emotion from the vocals and even the playing.
> the fire that malmsteen gave off on rising force was amazing.
> to me, buckethead's music has some of the least amount of "feel"......... (just my opinion)..... however, it almost seems to be purposely robotic. and i love it! and yes, i'm not talking about Coma or something.
> ...



buckethead's ballads have plenty of feel. check out a song called "Earth Heals Herself" on the album Population Override. there's plenty of others too.


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

checkout the "young buckethead" video.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

a7stringkilla said:


> checkout the "young buckethead" video.



i don't think i've seen that either... i need that in my life. i'm all about some buckethead.


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## Daemoniac (Apr 15, 2009)

Whether or not a person can "play" with feeling is irrelevant to me. They could put as much "feeling" into the song as they want, but if im not feeling it on my end, for whatever reason, then its lost on me anyway...

Personally, i have yet to actually hear any guitar solo that i enjoyed, or felt had loads of "feeling" in it... I just dont feel any emotion from it


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> i don't think i've seen that either... i need that in my life. i'm all about some buckethead.



its on youtube. its him just sitting in a backyard at some gathering somewhere just trippin on his guitar. it really is very, very cool.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

a7stringkilla said:


> its on youtube. its him just sitting in a backyard at some gathering somewhere just trippin on his guitar. it really is very, very cool.



actually i may have seen that... is it the one where he's playing through a rock man and he's got that black ibanez/jackson looking guitar?


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

Yarp, thats the one.

You can certainly shred with feeling but a lot of the time with Mr Head I think there's a deliberate absence of feeling which evokes its own mood - oh, the dichotomy!


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## DaveCarter (Apr 15, 2009)

Im just as happy listening to Jeff Beck as I am with Shawn Lane, to me both play with equal amounts of 'feeling', regardless of speed used


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 15, 2009)

SplinteredDave said:


> Im just as happy listening to Jeff Beck as I am with Shawn Lane, to me both play with equal amounts of 'feeling', regardless of speed used



Jeff's no slouch when he wants to be 

Jeff and Shawn are both known to be able to play with feeling regardless of tempo but I guess that for many people that guy that really hit it on the head would be (don't laugh) Yngwie. His first couple of albums were fucking _firebreathing _man and while some of his later stuff is a bit staid he's criminally underated by people who dismiss him all too readily these days.

How many guitarists cite him as an influence or respect his ability? Loads, even up to world-class players.


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## DaveCarter (Apr 15, 2009)

Hmmm, maybe Jeff is a bad example!! The point Im getting at is that Shawn Lane has been clocked as the world fastest player, yet IMO he still plays with as much feeling as anyone else. Perhaps a better comparison would be between him and Dave Gilmour? Either way, speed/shred doesnt necessarily mean that something lacks feel, it's just a different way of communicating your melodic ideas, which in the right circumstances can also seem more impressive than the same ideas played at a slower pace.


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## a7stringkilla (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> actually i may have seen that... is it the one where he's playing through a rock man and he's got that black ibanez/jackson looking guitar?



yeah thats it. hes playing a Heartfield/Fender Talon. it was Fenders stab at superstrats. pretty cool looking guitar.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

most becker songs he shreds from start to finish and i think they're all pretty damn beautiful. "Altitudes" ftw.


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## MFB (Apr 15, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> "Altitudes" ftw.



That's why I put Altitudes on page one of the "Solos that make you cry" thread


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 15, 2009)

MFB said:


> That's why I put Altitudes on page one of the "Solos that make you cry" thread



oh did you? nice! 

i go nowhere near reading them all.


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## Harry (Apr 16, 2009)

kmanick said:


> a mixture of both is ideal.
> I love shreddrs that can make a guitar scream.
> check out his Andy James clip (sounds like a backing of "windows to the soul")
> he mixes it up here pretty nicely
> ...




That's a fantastic video (the E Lydian one)
His phrasing is spine chillingly good and that bend at 53 seconds is one of the most expressive things I've ever heard. I watch that video at least once a day.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 16, 2009)

James Murphy is worth a mention in this thread I think. he can rip it up when he wants to, but in recent guest solos he's really just gone with what makes the music more powerful, and laid off the fast stuff completely. props to that man


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## canuck brian (Apr 16, 2009)

The only time I hear this Shred vs Feel argument in person is in a music store. It's usually brought up by the overweight, balding old blues guy playing a strat into a blues deville louder than everyone else in the store. 

I just need the really hardcore shred to sound like it's actually going somewhere, like Loomis's solos. The guy captures so much melody in his solos. Other than that, I'm sure the guys going as fast as humanly possible are having fun doing it, so who am I to tell them that they aren't playing with feeling and should change how they play? Goes the same for the other side too. It's so subjective.


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## Excalibur (Apr 16, 2009)

canuck brian said:


> The only time I hear this Shred vs Feel argument in person is in a music store. It's usually brought up by the overweight, balding old blues guy playing a strat into a blues deville louder than everyone else in the store.
> 
> I just need the really hardcore shred to sound like it's actually going somewhere, like Loomis's solos. The guy captures so much melody in his solos. Other than that, I'm sure the guys going as fast as humanly possible are having fun doing it, so who am I to tell them that they aren't playing with feeling and should change how they play? Goes the same for the other side too. It's so subjective.


This.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 16, 2009)

^ yes. it's very true. whenever i'm shreddin' it up in a guitar shop that's what i hear. but the thing is... i feel like i need a backing track if i'm going to play anything meaningful as far as leads go. otherwise i'm usually rippin' it up trying to see if i think the guitar is comfortable and whether or not it'll stand up to whatever i throw at it.


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## dougsteele (Apr 16, 2009)

I like feet.


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## ShadyDavey (Apr 16, 2009)

dougsteele said:


> I like feet.



/thread.

Bring on the next thread.


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## Koshchei (Apr 16, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> I've noticed over the years that there's--in general terms--a divide between the shred camp and the guys that play with "feeling", so to speak. I never understood this.
> 
> On the one hand, it is entirely possible to shred with feeling. Artists such as Steve Vai, Eric Johnson, Satch, Stanley Jordan and several others have shown us this.
> 
> ...



I've thought about this one for years, and the conclusion I've come to is that the division between audiences determines it. Some people prefer simple melodies, and others prefer more complex arrangements with more technical requirements. Basically the modern day division between folk and art music.

Where the trouble arises, is in the fact that both of these groups use the same instruments. BB King versus Yngwie Malmsteen is the difference between fiddle and violin -- the fiddle audience will never understand Yngwie, even though he may interpretively play a BB theme they're familiar with, and the violin audience will find BB King to not be musically engaging, and inept if he ever tries to play anything Yngwie.

That's all. Neither style is wrong, just different.


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## TonyFlyingSquirrel (Apr 16, 2009)

Even when you "shred", it should have feeling, otherwise, it's just fretboard acrobatics & exersizes.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 16, 2009)

no more music suggestions?


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Apr 16, 2009)

TonyFlyingSquirrel said:


> Even when you "shred", it should have feeling, otherwise, it's just fretboard acrobatics & exersizes.


So, what IS feeling, then?


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 16, 2009)

sensation sent to the brain by your nerves??? 

i think feeling means something different to everyone. i mean i'm sure some kids would say there's feeling in a hatebreed song although i find them all to be pretty lame....


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Apr 17, 2009)

I don't think it's right to use such a word to describe guitar playing unless there's a common agreement about what it _is_.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 17, 2009)

Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> I don't think it's right to use such a word to describe guitar playing unless there's a common agreement about what it _is_.



while i agree, i don't think we can stop it. that's like asking people not to use the word "good" in reference to music. while one person may consider, let's say, Jeff Loomis' Jato Unit to be a good song, another observer may find it to be absolute shit.

can you dig it?


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## Mindcrime1204 (Apr 17, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> .....Personally, i have yet to actually hear any guitar solo that i enjoyed, or felt had loads of "feeling" in it... I just dont feel any emotion from it


 
Jeez... you must listen to nothing but death metal! lol


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## Yngtchie Blacksteen (Apr 17, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> while i agree, i don't think we can stop it. that's like asking people not to use the word "good" in reference to music. while one person may consider, let's say, Jeff Loomis' Jato Unit to be a good song, another observer may find it to be absolute shit.
> 
> can you dig it?


Yup, but I feel it's a tad different. "Good" is of course subjective, but "feeling" is so vague, and it's always used like it's a factual thing. This guy plays with feeling, while this guy does not.


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## lucasreis (Apr 17, 2009)

I&#180;ve experienced a shred vs feel moment yesterday.

I saw 3 bands in a club here in S&#227;o Paulo.

The first had 4 musicians, two guitarrists, a bassist/vocalist and a drummer. The style was kinda grungy with little technique but the compositions were awesome, energetic, raw, I couldn&#180;t stop rocking to it!! They didn&#180;t play any cover songs and some people even knew the lyrics to their songs! Awesome shit.

The second band had 5 guys, same instruments, but the vocalist only sang. They were monsters playing, two awesome shredders, one hell of a bassist and the drummer was an animal, very fast, and everything. They played a kind of metalized funk rock with lots of different parts, solos, and everything, but their compositions sounded like a show off. It had no emotion, no one was liking it, most of the crowd went to the bar and ignored them while acknowledging they were awesome players but their songs sucked. When they played an old Metallica cover people rocked to it, the solos were perfect and everything.

Then, the third band was a weird trio, kinda glam/punk-ish with lacked FEEL and TECHNIQUE. They sucked major balls! lol See? There&#180;s worse stuff then shred vs feel --> A complete shite band!


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 17, 2009)

Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> Yup, but I feel it's a tad different. "Good" is of course subjective, but "feeling" is so vague, and it's always used like it's a factual thing. This guy plays with feeling, while this guy does not.



sad thing is... "feeling" means whatever the fuck the person saying it wants it to mean at that time. and none of us can read minds. 

so i agree that that word shouldn't be used either.

it should be a binary choice: i like it / i don't like it


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## Excalibur (Apr 17, 2009)

Mindcrime1204 said:


> Jeez... you must listen to nothing but death metal! lol


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 17, 2009)

Excalibur said:


>




awesome... i loved death the first time i heard them.


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## Excalibur (Apr 17, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> awesome... i loved death the first time i heard them.


Same here, one of the Death Metal bands I really like


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## minutka_square (Apr 18, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> one thing I've noticed is that people who only care about shred are often young and immature, and only care about speed, because speed = skill right?
> 
> then the older, more mature people are more into getting more out of the guitar i.e. using the clean channel, lead work without wankery, and the sounds you can get out of a guitar that don't sound like a guitar (see Slipknot)
> 
> ...


 lets face it tho, necrophagist leads get pretty dull after a while. and i dont think shawn lane only did feel. he did just as much fretwanking. at end of the day its the artists' music,and they can make it what they want it to be, no one forces someone to listen to it. if one doesnt like it, they can buzz off and try and make their own. jason beckers music was only half as technical as it was beautiful, and speaking of technique its near impossible and jason becker admires rusty cooley.


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## Koshchei (Apr 18, 2009)

Why is this thread still going? Artists don't decide to wank or play with feeling on odd or even days. They play what they want to play, hopefully without ever listening to the inane drivel that their fans/critics spout when they pretend to understand the artist's intent better than the artist.

It's the audience's problem that they're unable to listen to music without bringing their baggage with them. Just leave it at that.


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## sevenstringj (Apr 18, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> Why is this thread still going? Artists don't decide to wank or play with feeling on odd or even days. They play what they want to play, hopefully without ever listening to the inane drivel that their fans/critics spout when they pretend to understand the artist's intent better than the artist.
> 
> It's the audience's problem that they're unable to listen to music without bringing their baggage with them. Just leave it at that.



What you call "baggage" is really just life experience. Having an "open mind" to music that doesn't move you is a conscious decision, which may or may not be rewarding, again, depending on your life experience. And let's not leave artists off the hook. For every inspired musician, there are 100 hacks jumping on the bandwagon.


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 18, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> What you call "baggage" is really just life experience. Having an "open mind" to music that doesn't move you is a conscious decision, which may or may not be rewarding, again, depending on your life experience. And let's not leave artists off the hook. For every inspired musician, there are 100 hacks jumping on the bandwagon.


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## Koshchei (Apr 18, 2009)

sevenstringj said:


> What you call "baggage" is really just life experience. Having an "open mind" to music that doesn't move you is a conscious decision, which may or may not be rewarding, again, depending on your life experience. And let's not leave artists off the hook. For every inspired musician, there are 100 hacks jumping on the bandwagon.



Or life inexperience, as the case may be... not all lives are equal, nor are all experiences.

I was hoping to differentiate the hacks from the genuinely talented with the word "artists"... but you're right though. Today, the word "artist" roughly equates to "dilettante". 

Let's agree that when I say "artist", I mean somebody who produces something of genuine worth, rather than marketing-speak for "40 year old talentless child in a man's body, so thoroughly gorged on his own ego that even making eye contact will send him over the edge."

So, Artist = 






NOT


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 18, 2009)

^ awesome explanation


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## CrushingAnvil (Apr 19, 2009)

Me, I love writing solos, Theres a difference between making one, and writing one. I never play faster than I can actually play either...soo...Shredding should Never be frowned upon, nor should slower playing... because lets face it - Blues jerkoffs are the ones who came up with this feeling bullshit - It's like "what the fuck do you mean? every time I fret a note I feel the note and I like how it sounds, just because Metal isn't your thing, It doesn't make blues/jazz/bluegrass the only shit with soul or feel or whatever, doucher"


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## Konfyouzd (Apr 19, 2009)

i think it's safe to assume that when someone says that a song/solo lacks feel, it simply means that they, themselves, cannot feel it. we all know that means it has no feel.


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## Excalibur (Apr 19, 2009)

There's too many words per second in this thread, it's got no feel.


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## Koshchei (Apr 19, 2009)

You're reading it too fast! Read with feeling.


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## Excalibur (Apr 19, 2009)

Koshchei said:


> You're reading it too fast! Read with feeling.


I'm trying to be more emotive with my prose


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## canuck brian (Apr 20, 2009)

I had a thought on this - guys like Cooley with the really out there bananas playing isn't thinking "THIS MUST GO INTO THIS SCALE - NEXT THIS SCALE - NEXT SCALE". He's up there doing what he loves to do. Best feeling in the world. He's playing with feeling if he can feel it. 

I can get into the "feel" of the slower, bluesier players, but I usually just feel bored. Just not my thing.


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## sol niger 333 (May 27, 2009)

Yngtchie Blacksteen said:


> So, what IS feeling, then?



Feeling is playing from an emotional base however much technical ability you have, its about being able to discard that for the greater good of portraying a pure emotion through the vehicle of a guitar or other instrument. Feel involves beautiful note choice, employing minimalism when it is called for and subtlety of vibrato to create an emotional response. This is where technical players sometimes miss the point in a big way. This is why you get bored after listening to some tech death bands or fusion bands for too long because as "amazing" as their muscle memory and technical ability is, it becomes boring without emotion and feel. Although certain players have married technical playing styles with an element of emotional content too. Freddy T springs to mind.


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## Konfyouzd (May 27, 2009)

there are so many emotions out there, though. and i feel like some people say that something has no feeling simply because it expresses an emotion that they don't feel or refuse to accept. hell for all i know dragonforce could "feel" every note they play even though their songs sound like a game of super mario brothers. that's what they're into. that's what they feel.


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## Cheap Poison (May 27, 2009)

not much to add t othe discussion besides.
that i do see the point but i feel that emotive playing can be cause you'r not entirely accurate, but can also just be complete controle over the instrument that you might not have super speed but just can put every nuance you like where you want it without a problem.

also depend what you define as emotive, such a hard thing to define.


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## Konfyouzd (May 27, 2009)

Cheap Poison said:


> also depend what you define as emotive, such a hard thing to define.



it's impossible to define. it means something different to everyone. which is why i ask "Why the beef?"


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## Excalibur (May 27, 2009)

It's a word that people use when they can't play fast, and want to make excuses to feel better about their playing.


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## Konfyouzd (May 27, 2009)

that's what i've always considered it to be. but i don't like to generalize people like that because i've also known shredders to say that something has no feeling.


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## Excalibur (May 27, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> that's what i've always considered it to be. but i don't like to generalize people like that because i've also known shredders to say that something has no feeling.


Haha, in the end it's just all jealousy and the typical guitarist complex.


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## groph (May 27, 2009)

My 0.02:

Shred obviously takes a certain amount of technical skill to play cleanly. It's a clearly defined, distinct style, while "feel" implies a great amount of subjectivity. If someone says a solo has "emotion" then that is their subjective interpretation of that solo, and you can't really compare that to a unique style of music. Now, if we're talking about shred = fast playing and feel = slow with bends, then it just depends on the song completely. Who's to say that once a piece of music exceeds so many notes per second it suddenly becomes emotionless and tasteless? Fast, frantic, atonal solos fit certain kinds of music, as well as slow stuff with bends. It's all about creating moods.

A lot of this has probably already been said, I didn't read the whole thread..


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## Daggorath (May 27, 2009)

People make the mistake of thinking that technique and speed are one and the same. In actual fact technique can be used to describe the nuances in how someone plays something and the expression that they can put into playing the notes. Players like Hendrix, Beck and Guthrie are so recognisable because of their jaw dropping technique and ability to express themselves, and that doesn't necessarily mean playing lots of notes.

I'm in neither camp as I can see how people limit themselves by being anti shred or pro speed.


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## Koshchei (May 27, 2009)

Well said!


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## Imdeathcore (May 27, 2009)

convination of the two and point​


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## Konfyouzd (May 27, 2009)

Daggorath said:


> People make the mistake of thinking that technique and speed are one and the same. In actual fact technique can be used to describe the nuances in how someone plays something and the expression that they can put into playing the notes. Players like Hendrix, Beck and Guthrie are so recognisable because of their jaw dropping technique and ability to express themselves, and that doesn't necessarily mean playing lots of notes.
> 
> I'm in neither camp as I can see how people limit themselves by being anti shred or pro speed.


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## SamSam (May 28, 2009)

Best quote ever:

"More notes per second = More emotion per second"

Kills my mates everytime they slag off shredders, I appriciate both sides but it's funny the way people flip when you suggest shredders ay actually have talent. Vai is God when it comes to mixing both as far as I'm concerned I don't know how anyone can hear his pieces and not at least appreciate how much emotion that man channels through his instrument.


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## Konfyouzd (May 28, 2009)

^ becker too... and i think eric johnson is another one that can do it incredibly well.


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## Cheap Poison (May 28, 2009)

Daggorath said:


> People make the mistake of thinking that technique and speed are one and the same. In actual fact technique can be used to describe the nuances in how someone plays something and the expression that they can put into playing the notes. Players like Hendrix, Beck and Guthrie are so recognisable because of their jaw dropping technique and ability to express themselves, and that doesn't necessarily mean playing lots of notes.
> 
> I'm in neither camp as I can see how people limit themselves by being anti shred or pro speed.



Exactly my idea.
But like this tread has come to show it also depends a lot on context.
Different songs and moments call for different approaches.
And also afformentioned guys(eric johnson, guthrie govan, ...) can play just as fast , they just don't overdose.
all about the right balance.


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## troyguitar (May 28, 2009)

I feel like shredding.


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## metaljohn (May 29, 2009)

I feel like roast beef.


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## troyguitar (May 29, 2009)

Roast beef is too technical and lifeless. 

I prefer the raw emotion and intensity of just taking a bite out of a live cow.


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## 77Barrettcore77 (May 29, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> I'm mediocre at both so I don't judge.



Same goes for me 

Though i love the way in which Vai uses both.
Like the song blue powder so much feeling in that song with some great shred licks in it.


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## oompa (May 29, 2009)

well i think most of this stems from what the definition of "feel" is.

i think many of those who are not into any type of shred music, think of "feel" as your touch/tone/vibrato etc. if you think 'feel' is how you touch a note, how are you supposed to tell any difference at 18nps? what you can tell the difference from is the notes (music) sound setup and technique. but you dont get anything personal at 18nps they say.

i agree but thats just me. and the core of my music library is technical death metal and guitar nerdery. but close to none of the guitarplay in it brings any feel to me from anything but the sound picture, the music and vocals+other instruments.

to me, no shred part of any solo is even in the same category as for example roger waters snail like solos, where his bends and subtle vibrato really enforces the emotion the music already placed there, tenfold.

compare it by playing a pink floyd solo in midi from tablature, and compare to say a shred part in midi. you still get the shred part almost the same because the music (notes) itself is what brings a major part of the feel. 

listening to a pink floyd solo on midi you'll fall asleep in 5 seconds :/ 

i agree that if by feel you mean touch, you can't tell anything personal from a note that flashes by at 18nps. it makes all the sense in the world to me. but if you dont define that as all that is 'feel', then of course you can have alot of feel in shred parts since shredding notes brings many new dimensions to music.


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## Konfyouzd (May 29, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Roast beef is too technical and lifeless.
> 
> I prefer the raw emotion and intensity of just taking a bite out of a live cow.



that's the most metal thing i've heard all fuckin' day.


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## metaljohn (May 29, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Roast beef is too technical and lifeless.
> 
> I prefer the raw emotion and intensity of just taking a bite out of a live cow.



You better watch out, Cattle Decap is comin' after youuuuuu.......


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## Yoshi (May 29, 2009)

I think a lot of people tune out when they hear shred, not knowing that note combinations is also a part of feel. Nothing worse than going down to your local music store to see some 45 year old man going through his mid life crisis with a Les Paul custom in hand playing through a Fender Combo on the neck pick up playing the same blues wankery and looking so satisfied with him self for staying in the same damn position the whole time. 7 notes being played 200 different ways in the same position in the sitting of an hour is annoying, especially when I'm trying to play a guitar as well...

Nothing against blues wankers though.


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