# Pros and cons of going direct with Axe-Fx's?



## Metalus (Aug 21, 2012)

My guitarist, bassist and I are consider going direct for the show. Any pros/cons?


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## ACE IT UP (Aug 21, 2012)

Pros: Never worrying about tone inconsistencies on your end again...

Cons: I can't think of any


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 21, 2012)

Pros:
-More comfortable stage volume.
-Less gear to haul around. 
-Fewer potential points of failure in your rig. 

Cons:
-You're now wholly dependent on the house sound system, and it's operator. 
-Your Axe goes dead, you don't play.


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## Leuchty (Aug 21, 2012)

PRO:

Fast setups and teardowns


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## oryphic (Aug 21, 2012)

Cons: Getting used to the AxeFx and realizing it owns all. Makes me cynical as fuck about a lot of other gear sometimes haha. But none the less, it's fairly hard to make a long cons list especially if you're using it direct out.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 21, 2012)

Not to be a Debbie Downer, but it's convenience may make it easier to steal too.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 21, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Not to be a Debbie Downer, but it's convenience may make it easier to steal too.



Eh, if you can't keep track of a small rack bag at a gig then you probably don't deserve having one.  

The Axe and a rack bag together weigh maybe 20lbs, strap that shit to yourself.


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## Konfyouzd (Aug 21, 2012)

Yea I know what you mean, it's just that I've heard of guitarists guitars being stolen too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a pretty essential piece of equipment to the profession--one that deserves and equal level of attention. Not to mention it seems a great deal larger--at least in terms of surface area.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 21, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Yea I know what you mean, it's just that I've heard of guitarists guitars being stolen too. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's a pretty essential piece of equipment to the profession--one that deserves and equal level of attention and surface area wise is much larger.



Gear gets stolen because it's typically pretty hard to keep track of it all at a gig. The fact that 99% of gear looks identical (especially in cases) to all other gear doesn't help either when there are five or more bands on a bill. It's just a sea of black guitar cases, black amp racks, and black cabs. Having folks who aren't 100% familiar with your gear helping to break down or switch gear between sets doesn't help much either. 

Though, watching your gear and stowing it quickly and properly goes a long way to making sure nothing is swiped. The less you have to deal with, the easier it is to do just that.


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## MetalBuddah (Aug 21, 2012)

Pros:
-Consistent tone across venues (given the sound guy isn't a total inbred)
-Easy to lug around
-Setting up and breaking down is easy

Cons:
-Relying on stage monitors if you don't have a cab (but if you know your music well enough, this shouldn't be an issue)

I go direct in with my HD500 (so similar) and rely on the stage monitors and I have never had a problem. I love the freedom that I have with the HD500 and I have never gotten so many compliments on my tone before


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## Metalus (Aug 25, 2012)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Pros:
> -More comfortable stage volume.
> -Less gear to haul around.
> -Fewer potential points of failure in your rig.
> ...



Damn those are some good points . You da man Max


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## xCaptainx (Aug 27, 2012)

Really don't understand when people say 'but broooo you'll be at the complete mercy of the soundguy and the in house p.a'

yeah....you will...as is EVERYONE else. See that mic in front of your cab...where do you think that goes? 


ONLY con would be you. As in your ears; do you like the tone you get from the Axe FX D.I? If yes; sweet, go with it. If not; don't. That's all it needs to boil down too.


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## ST3MOCON (Aug 27, 2012)

One HUGE HUGE con is relying on the house speakers and sound guy. Especially with a drum set right next to you. I've gone direct before because my amp wasn't working right. For metal I'm not sure if I'd recommend it. You CAN do it but I don't think it will ever be to your liking until you have a good sound guy and really good monitors and house system. I think if you brought a small PA for your guitars that might help a little to give your guitar some dedicated speakers. There's a lot of venues with no monitors and just speakers for vocals. I say do some reaserch on the venue. You can definitely do it. I did it with my old band URL in my sig, and we played fine at that venue. I would say try and rely on yourself as much as possible and not the sound guy. Don't hope that he even knows what he's doing. Basically play at the same volumes you do at practice equalize everything yourself. When you are relying on house speakers that's impossible. Don't think I'm a person who ignores a good sound dude or that I turn up my guitar to blistering volumes or anything noobish like that lol I'm just saying from my experience. The direct sound also lacked in power. People who were up super close and not far enough for the speakers couldn't hear me well. It's just a jar of problems if you ask me. up to you


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## petereanima (Aug 27, 2012)

xCaptainx said:


> Really don't understand when people say 'but broooo you'll be at the complete mercy of the soundguy and the in house p.a'



I don't know about the common locations for small metal bands (etc...) in your area, but if you tour through Europe, expect to play backline-only gigs in every second to third location, expect no (or not-sufficient) on-stage monitoring in about half of the locations. Expect every location for 200 people or below that they are relying on half-stacks for bringing sound to the first rows. On the plus-side: most venues do have some 412s that they will happily provide.

But even then: At least a poweramp is a MUST-bring here in addition to the Axe / POD / what have you, or you can prepare to be fucked sooner or later.

EDIT: also, bring a DI box with you if you are going direct. Mostly, you will just have to unplug the mic from the cab, and plug in your direct-device. The connected insert is expecting Mic-level, not line level.


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## Metalus (Aug 28, 2012)

petereanima said:


> I don't know about the common locations for small metal bands (etc...) in your area, but if you tour through Europe, expect to play backline-only gigs in every second to third location, expect no (or not-sufficient) on-stage monitoring in about half of the locations. Expect every location for 200 people or below that they are relying on half-stacks for bringing sound to the first rows. On the plus-side: most venues do have some 412s that they will happily provide.
> 
> But even then: At least a poweramp is a MUST-bring here in addition to the Axe / POD / what have you, or you can prepare to be fucked sooner or later.
> 
> EDIT: also, bring a DI box with you if you are going direct. Mostly, you will just have to unplug the mic from the cab, and plug in your direct-device. The connected insert is expecting Mic-level, not line level.



Wouldnt I be able to connect the XLR out direct to the PA? Im assuming thats why the Axe has a ground lift switch


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## Narrillnezzurh (Aug 28, 2012)

xCaptainx said:


> Really don't understand when people say 'but broooo you'll be at the complete mercy of the soundguy and the in house p.a'



Why should the sound guy care about your monitor mix? It's not like he has to hear it, and neither does anyone else.

But imagine how inconvenient it would be to have to play your entire set strictly by feel, with no way of hearing what's coming out of your rig? Have you ever done a whole set running direct through a sound system with no monitoring?

I didn't think so.


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## petereanima (Aug 28, 2012)

Metalus said:


> Wouldnt I be able to connect the XLR out direct to the PA? Im assuming thats why the Axe has a ground lift switch



In theory, you ARE able to connect it directly - the problem is, that the Axe is delivering a signal that is way too hot (line-level), than what the sound guy / FOH is expecting (mic-level). You can possibly get kind of around by giving all patches you use a -10db on the master output...
Of course, if you know the venue and the soundguy and what he is using, you can talk to him in advance, making clear that you are sending LINELEVEL direct. With somewhat decent of FOH gear, he should be able to deal with it.

The groundlift doesnt help you here, its only if you run into hum-noise from grounding-problems / loops.


My point was more: I don't know about you guys, but we are mostly playing the "right between the local supports and the international headliner" slots on concerts, and mostly about 5 minutes of set up time (if we are planning to do something like a linecheck) - usually the sound guys do not want to change any inserts or anything for the band "in between" - the whole vening, bands are playing via the mic'd halfstack backline, it is expected from you not to fuck around with disconnecting everything and then maybe sending a too hot signal. 

If you are playing either big gigs / headliner gigs OR very small / locals only gigs mostly, the whole thing won't be an issue, you mostly have the time and availability to get everything settled.

The "in between" stuff is what makes it almost impossible.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 28, 2012)

Narrillnezzurh said:


> Why should the sound guy care about your monitor mix? It's not like he has to hear it, and neither does anyone else.
> 
> But imagine how inconvenient it would be to have to play your entire set strictly by feel, with no way of hearing what's coming out of your rig? Have you ever done a whole set running direct through a sound system with no monitoring?
> 
> I didn't think so.



I have actually. My bands been going for 7 years, with 3 albums and we practise twice a week. It really wasn't a problem. I only ever listen to the hi-hat when we play anyway. 

I use my own powered monitor now anyway, so it's never a problem.


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## Larrikin666 (Aug 28, 2012)

xCaptainx said:


> I have actually. My bands been going for 7 years, with 3 albums and we practise twice a week. It really wasn't a problem. I only ever listen to the hi-hat when we play anyway.
> 
> I use my own powered monitor now anyway, so it's never a problem.



Same here. Except for the hats. I listen for the ride bell. LOL. But yeah....there were times when I used a tradional amp/cab setup where (for whatever reason) I couldn't hear a single thing I played. It is what it is. Having two 1200 watt monitors makes that scenario unlikely though.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 28, 2012)

yeah after a few years of the same set, everything just becomes second nature. I played main stage support at Big Day Out for Rage Against The Machine in 2008 I think it was. I'm talking about a HUGE arena/stadium stage. There were some MASSIVE dead zones were absolutely nothing could be heard. 

After a while, and with a lot of confidence in your fellow band mates, stage sound becomes completely irrelevant. 

Completely agree with petereanima, that's why I purchased the L3M line 6 powered monitor. For gigs with a smaller p.a, I use that as my stage sound and crank it, it's holds up against a 5150II no problem at all. And for anywhere I go where I cannot bring it (say if I'm flying) I simply go into the effects return of a 5150 backline and use it as a poweramp/cab setup (again only if the p.a is too small) or just use the backline anyway (I've used pretty much every kind of backline throughout NZ/Australia, dialling up a simply metal tone isnt that big of a problem) 

Also a quick 5 minute convo before the night starts with the soundguy gives me a clear indication as to what path I need to take. More often that not its my preferred setup. Most soundguys in NZ/Aus are fairly laid back and easy to work with


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## Narrillnezzurh (Aug 28, 2012)

xCaptainx said:


> I have actually.



Then you should understand why we say you'll be at the mercy of the sound guy, and you should understand why you, as the performer, are not in the same boat as the crowd. Saying that you're no more at the mercy of the house system than everyone else is ignorant, and wrong, and with 7 years of experience under your belt you should realize that.

As for whether it matters, that's totally up to the player in question. If you've got your set down to muscle memory, then you're right, the stage mix probably doesn't make a difference. But a lot of people _do_ need to hear themselves on stage, and going direct means you may not always be able to.

For most people, the amount of control over the stage mix that you're giving up to the resident sound engineer is a pretty significant con of running direct.


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## larry (Aug 28, 2012)

another potential con:

the rewarding psychological effect that happens
when you've got a pair of 4x12's on top
of a pair of 2x12's pushing from behind you, 
is no longer present. i feel a kinda naked without 
cabs. if you're like me, than this can be a mildly 
disappointing experience.

as mentioned above, being at the mercy of
the venue FOH and engineer can suck.
so some of you may consider using 
in-ear systems, which can get expensive.
decent setups often involve custom molds,
so beware.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 28, 2012)

13 years experience with live peformances, but hey who's counting haha. 

Anywho...I have no problem with a lack of stage sound, I use our drummer as a metronome. That's all I need. 

My retort was simply stating that you are ALWAYS at the mercy of the soundguy...as he controls what comes out of the P.A, which is what the punters hear (except for smaller shows explained above, where the soundguy might be relying on a bit of stage sound bleed) So really....all we are talking about here is your level of comfort with stage sound, or a lack thereof. 

OP was asking for opinions...this is mine based on experience with D.I touring. Will he be comfortable with that approach should he experience an inadequate stage sound setup? That's up to him to experience and judge. I have no problems.


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## petereanima (Aug 29, 2012)

Yep, I also do not need to really hear me - however, what I want is the ability to be ABLE to hear me, when I need it. I can play blind by following the drummer, no problem - but I prefer my sound to "bleed" at least somewhere onto stage - just to be sure its there. Just to be sure that the fucking EMG battery did not just die (yes, that actually happened to me 3 gigs ago), just to have assurance I am not on the Clean channel, or still on "standby"...


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## hairychris (Aug 29, 2012)

xCaptainx said:


> Really don't understand when people say 'but broooo you'll be at the complete mercy of the soundguy and the in house p.a'
> 
> yeah....you will...as is EVERYONE else. See that mic in front of your cab...where do you think that goes?
> 
> ...



Hmm, you play any venues with really shit PAs that you have to reinforce from the stage? Or played small venues where drums & vocals are miked but the rest is not?

If you're a band with a bit of a name who performs in mid-sized venues and up then, yeah, DI might well be OK. However, as someone who's played in a variety of shitholes I can tell you that if I turned up to half those shows with DI only I'd have been unable to play.

This is *nothing* to do with monitoring and all to do with the assumption that the house PA is going to be adequate.

EDIT: There are some well equipped venues with lovely promoters and great engineers out there. There are also absolute shaved fucking chimps and cowboys who haven't a clue or are massively on the cheap. Unless you know said folks beforehand you can't make any assumption before walking through the door with your kit.

EDIT 2: Maybe I need to better myself in life.


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## Larrikin666 (Aug 29, 2012)

We also get shows with bad PAs or no PA for anything but vocals. Totally not an issue. We stack our powered monitors behind us like a full stack. Having two QSCs and two Mackies produces a ridiculous wall of sound.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 29, 2012)

LarriKin666 that' exactly what I do. 



In fact here's me doing that last Saturday! We played an All Ages floor show in a small town. Nothing was mic'd up. Other guitarist used a 5150II and mode four cab backline. I used my HD500, and stood my Line 6 L3M powered monitor up and cranked it. Volume is on half and it matched the 5150II easily.

I'm to the right so you can't see me most of the time haha.


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## Genome (Aug 29, 2012)

To avoid that problem, just set up all your patches something like this:







This is so you can go direct, and use a real amp on stage - Output 2 goes to the FX Return of a real amp via the FXLoop block, and bypasses any cab or power amp sim along the way.

Output 1 acts as normal with all simulations and carries on to the FOH, however if you turn up to a gig and there's nothing in the way of PA, just take Output 2 and go into whatever backline they have/ask to borrow someone else's head/cab/combo.

If you have money to burn, then buy a power amp as back up and sit it in your rack.


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## Metalus (Aug 30, 2012)

Can I setup output 1 to be the feed to my power amp and cab and use the fx loop and output 2 for FOH?

Or does it have to be like it is in the pic?


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## Genome (Aug 30, 2012)

I don't think so. It's better to have Output 1 go to FOH via a balanced connection, anyway.


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## Metalus (Aug 30, 2012)

Is the fx loop block not supposed to be connected all the way to the output at the end of the grid? Im assuming this is because it goes directly to output 2 right?

My Carvin ts100 doesnt have an fx return. Does this matter?


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## hairychris (Aug 31, 2012)

Then, unlike what the OP mentioned, this is *not going direct to PA* as you are bringing your own backline (powered monitors) and not running through FOH.



Discussion upthread implied, to me, that you would run Axe fx -> FoH Desk -> PA and stage monitoring without using any individual amplification. If you're bringing powered monitors this changes the scope of the discussion.

Edit: You can't just sling a powered monitor over your shoulder along with guitar & Axe fx, in other words.


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## Genome (Aug 31, 2012)

Metalus said:


> Is the fx loop block not supposed to be connected all the way to the output at the end of the grid? Im assuming this is because it goes directly to output 2 right?
> 
> My Carvin ts100 doesnt have an fx return. Does this matter?



Nope, it doesn't need to be. I_ think_ it's hardwired to Output 2. 

As for your amp, I've heard you need a line out box like this, but I'm not entirely sure how it works.



> Then, unlike what the OP mentioned, this is not going direct to PA as you are bringing your own backline (powered monitors) and not running through FOH.
> 
> Discussion upthread implied, to me, that you would run Axe fx -> FoH Desk -> PA and stage monitoring without using any individual amplification. If you're bringing powered monitors this changes the scope of the discussion.
> 
> Edit: You can't just sling a powered monitor over your shoulder along with guitar & Axe fx, in other words.



Yes, but you still have to take into account that many venues don't have sufficient stage monitoring or a PA at all, and it's worth being prepared for all eventualities. 

It's not the Axe's fault, as you'd have this problem with any amp - it's just with a head + cab or combo you still have stage volume - which you don't with the Axe if you're going solely to the FOH, unless you prepare as mentioned!


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## Larrikin666 (Aug 31, 2012)

hairychris said:


> Then, unlike what the OP mentioned, this is *not going direct to PA* as you are bringing your own backline (powered monitors) and not running through FOH.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He and I both do the same thing. The video he posted demonstrates what can be done when they PA at the venue isn't sufficient. I also run a signal to my monitors and one to the house. 

Also, I make one trip into the venue. Guitar on my shoulder, Mackie monitor in hand, Axe-FX rack w/ wheels in the other hand. I very rarely need to make a second trip to bring the other monitor in since most of the venues we play don't require that much stage volume.


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## hairychris (Aug 31, 2012)

Genome said:


> Yes, but you still have to take into account that many venues don't have sufficient stage monitoring or a PA at all, and it's worth being prepared for all eventualities.
> 
> It's not the Axe's fault, as you'd have this problem with any amp - it's just with a head + cab or combo you still have stage volume - which you don't with the Axe if you're going solely to the FOH, unless you prepare as mentioned!



Precisely, hence the change in topic from thread from "yeah go direct" to "yeah go direct if you can but always bring backup kit". Not the same thing.



Yes, I'm being pedantic. However whether to rely on house PA and monitoring was what folks were answering.



Edit: By the way, bringing kit/at least a power amp is probably the right thing to do. What isn't, necessarily, is bringing your 2u rack bag and assuming that everything will be OK for DI only UNLESS YOU HAVE ARRANGED THIS ALREADY. Or selling all your amplification and then wondering why the promoter & other bands are pissed off when you turn up at a show with nothing to play through. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst and so on.


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## Genome (Aug 31, 2012)

I don't really understand your problem. Unless you would've preferred us to say "yeah, go direct!" and the poor guy turn up to a gig and not be able to play.


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## hairychris (Aug 31, 2012)

Genome said:


> I don't really understand your problem. Unless you would've preferred us to say "yeah, go direct!" and the poor guy turn up to a gig and not be able to play.





Dude, *that's my entire point*.

Now go back and read the early responses to the thread. See the difference?


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## Larrikin666 (Aug 31, 2012)

Yeah. I suppose this is just a difference of how some of perceive the statement "playing direct". To me, it's always implied that you'd want some control of the stage monitoring yourself. In all my years of playing shows, I've never run into a single person who plays direct into the and DOESN'T bring a powered monitor or a poweramp/cab setup with them. That just seems like a recipe for disaster.


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## Genome (Aug 31, 2012)

hairychris said:


> Dude, *that's my entire point*.
> 
> Now go back and read the early responses to the thread. See the difference?



It appears I got the wrong end of the stick.

I thought your "" was directed at discussing being prepared by bringing a powered monitor... like you were complaining about going off-topic by bringing other things into the equation.

Never mind, nothing to see here...


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## Metalus (Sep 4, 2012)

Larrikin666 said:


> Yeah. I suppose this is just a difference of how some of perceive the statement "playing direct". To me, it's always implied that you'd want some control of the stage monitoring yourself. In all my years of playing shows, I've never run into a single person who plays direct into the and DOESN'T bring a powered monitor or a poweramp/cab setup with them. That just seems like a recipe for disaster.



What about if the venue does have a decent monitoring system? Wouldn't you be able to go direct and just have that same signal sent to your monitors?


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## xCaptainx (Sep 4, 2012)

Yeah, that's what I do. One XLR goes to P.A, one XLR goes to my monitor.


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## Metalus (Sep 4, 2012)

Oops i meant to say can i run direct and have the sound guy send me the DI signal to whatever monitors they have on stage. Im assuming this is also possible. I guess I could essentially just show up with my rack, guitars and thats it.


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## hairychris (Sep 5, 2012)

Metalus said:


> Oops i meant to say can i run direct and have the sound guy send me the DI signal to whatever monitors they have on stage. Im assuming this is also possible. I guess I could essentially just show up with my rack, guitars and thats it.




The crux of the issue - if you aim to do this check with the venue/soundguy beforehand.

*In theory*, with a decent PA & on-stage monitoring, you're fine.

However if you need to reinforce the sound from stage, guitars aren't miked (as often happens in small shows), or similar you'll be screwed unless you do a last-minute borrow from another band and that is a bit rude. This is what the back & forth on the thread has been about.


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