# My Crappy experience with Kiesel Guitars



## Jeff K (Jan 21, 2018)

I hope this thread saves someone from what happened to me by Kiesel!

*
I have been a client of Kiesel Guitars (Carvin) for many years. I have bought 9 guitars from them. 3 over the past year and a half. I was on Facebook and saw a live video of Jeff Kiesel announcing a special guitar run. It was for a new model called Vanquish. I liked what I heard and saw and decided to order one. I spoke with Chris Hong, went through the specifics, gave him my credit card and placed the order. They were only supposed to take a 300 deposit as per Chris Hong. They banged my card for over $600. The very next day (less than 13 hours since I placed the order), I called back and spoke to Chris. I wanted to make a few changes on the guitar. I have done this in the past when ordering from Kiesel. Chris told me NO. He said it was against the rules. I was like what rules? Chris said, the rules that were posted on Facebook. No one ever told me about any rules or conditions. When I ordered the guitar there was nothing disclosed to me. On top of all that, they never sent me a receipt or anything about rules / policy. I got no email, nothing, zero!! So when Chris refused to change my order, I told him to please just cancel the order. He told me NO! He told me according to the rules, I can not cancel the order. So, I went back and forth with some of the supervisors. Joe Stone emailed me that he has to follow Jeff Kiesel’s orders! I told them I would dispute the credit card charges. I Called my CC company, but so far I have not gotten my money back. It’s been 3 months and now I get an email the guitar is done and they want the balance. I told the person I cancelled the guitar. Now I get an email from another supervisor Anthony San Agustin. He tells me in the email that because I am cancelling I can no longer do future business with Kiesel. LOL!! Like I would ever want to again!! I mean their guitars are ok, but the customer service and the way they treat their long term, loyal clients is a joke! Joe Stone called me today. You could hear in his voice when I spoke to him, that he was basically stumbling on his words and he was quite embarrassed with the situation. He kept putting the blame on Jeff Kiesel. He said this is Jeff’s decision and that he has to follow protocol. I actually recorded the conversation. 

You can listen hear:

https://hearthis.at/kieselguitars/kieseldick/C6W/

So to sum it up, I ordered a guitar, gave them a deposit.

I was not told about any rules or conditions when I ordered my guitar.

I also was unaware of a Facebook Page that displayed these rules. How would I know this!?!?

I also did not receive any paperwork. No receipt, no rules or terms.

Now they wont give me back my deposit! So Jeff Kiesel basically has stolen my money!!

He obviously has some kind of Napoleon complex, and all his employee puppets follow his dictatorship! I just can’t understand why the guy can’t realize how wrong he is in this instance and either give me back my money, or make the changes that I requested. Again, these so called rules where never told to me. I only knew about them after I made the purchase, and that is totally unfair! Jeff Kiesel of Kiesel guitars is a thief!!

MOD EDIT: The original version of this post identified the wrong sales person. Mike Jones name was replaced with Chris Hong. *


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## feilong29 (Jan 21, 2018)

Wow, I'm so sorry to hear about this, and it seems to be a common trend. Eventually this will become commonplace and his business will suffer and he'll either have to adapt or go under. All these stories (which happen more often that I am comfortable with) are what has kept me from trying a Kiesel out. I really wanted a Vanquish, but ended up sticking with a brand I know well and trust, instead. I know many have had great transactions with Kiesel, but I've never heard of Caparison (sorry, haha) having complaints against them...except for their prices


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## Jeff K (Jan 21, 2018)

feilong29 said:


> Wow, I'm so sorry to hear about this, and it seems to be a common trend. Eventually this will become commonplace and his business will suffer and he'll either have to adapt or go under. All these stories (which happen more often that I am comfortable with) are what has kept me from trying a Kiesel out. I really wanted a Vanquish, but ended up sticking with a brand I know well and trust, instead. I know many have had great transactions with Kiesel, but I've never heard of Caparison (sorry, haha) having complaints against them...except for their prices



I bought 3 Aries multiscales in the past 3 years. Only one of them is good. Kiesel has really let me down. I recently ordered a Tom Anderson as I have heard great things. I also recently acquired a Skervesen which I love! Anyway, I agree. Jeff Kiesel better change his ways or things may go down hill for him and his company.


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## narad (Jan 21, 2018)

Yea, I was (again) on the fence with the new zeus, which I think is the best shape to come out of Kiesel in a decade, but I think I'll pass. I'm sure I'd probably have a good experience, but I don't want to support business that shaft people like this.

It's like "you're only as strong as your weakest link" sort of thing. You're only as good as your worst instance customer support. And this is the third time I've heard of long-term customers who probably dropped $10k in Kiesel gear getting put through these shenanigans.


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## Curt (Jan 21, 2018)

Just wow... And to think I was a month or so away from possibly giving them money.


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## Splenetic (Jan 21, 2018)

^^^^ "Jeff Kiesel likes this" 


LOOOOOL


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## InHiding (Jan 21, 2018)

If they told you 300 and charged 600 I would not be surprised if the credit card company gives you all the 600 back. It's a fraudulent transaction and if it's fraudulent it's fraudulent. I would assume it will be canceled as a transaction and that's it. Based on your story I hope this is what happens.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 21, 2018)

InHiding said:


> If they told you 300 and charged 600 I would not be surprised if the credit card company gives you all the 600 back. It's a fraudulent transaction and if it's fraudulent it's fraudulent. I would assume it will be canceled as a transaction and that's it. Based on your story I hope this is what happens.



I've had similar experiences with banks/credit card companies. 

If you're charged more than the specified amount you can get a chargeback very easily. 

Tell them you were overcharged or double charged. They deal with that very often.


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 21, 2018)

Totally shady dealings from Kiesel. If they want to specify these special and unusual conditions they cannot rely on a Facebook video and hope that everyone watches it before they place an order, they should explain this stuff up front and get agreement from the customer before taking a deposit on an order.

I've listened to the recorded conversation - the lack of conviction in the voice of the guy at Kiesel is comical, you can tell he isn't comfortable with screwing you but it sounds like Jeff rules with an iron fist and has his staff over a barrel. 

I'm sorry to hear you fell for the "stolen guitars" scam, imo the shadiest thing I've ever seen from a guitar company. The guitars were never stolen, the company or showroom was not "robbed" as per Jeff's words in that video he released. The fraud was a mail fraud and the guitars never left the showroom and Kiesel were not left out of pocket, yet Jeff still posted that video saying "This isn't going to close the business but it does make things difficult for us, things will be tight and if you've been thinking about placing an order for a guitar then now is the time, it would really help us out if you ordered a new guitar, told your friends about what happened and if they've been thinking about ordering a Kiesel, then now is the time to pull the trigger and help secure us".

Appalling and shameless behaviour, exploiting a situation and preying on the good will of existing and potential customers just to fill the order book up. As long as Jeff has his cult of personality maintained via the Facebook group that will turn his piss into wine no matter what he does. I'd never give that company a single penny now. It's a shame, because back in the Carvin days I was waiting and waiting for them to get a UK deal set up to import into the UK effectively, because the old deal they had with Nevada Music would turn a $1000 Carvin into a £2400 guitar, which at the time was about $3500, making it completely unrealistic to bother with ordering. Now that the UK pricing is much more level with what a US customer would pay (although we still get hit with additional import fees), I'd never order an instrument from them out of principle. It's a shame what happened to that company.


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## Anquished (Jan 21, 2018)

Sorry to hear that dude, hope you get your money back.


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## guitar4tw (Jan 21, 2018)

Sounds like this company is treating their customers like the "Soup Nazi" from Seinfeld. Get in line and do the ordering procedure exactly like the rules say, or you'll be thrown out and banned for life.

Problem is that their product doesn't have the quality that should make people willing to go along with such BS behaviour just to receive it.

"_NO KIESEL FOR YOU!_"


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## Dawn of the Shred (Jan 21, 2018)

Damn that sucks! No way in hell Kiesel will or would get my money.


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## Jeff K (Jan 21, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Totally shady dealings from Kiesel. If they want to specify these special and unusual conditions they cannot rely on a Facebook video and hope that everyone watches it before they place an order, they should explain this stuff up front and get agreement from the customer before taking a deposit on an order.
> 
> I've listened to the recorded conversation - the lack of conviction in the voice of the guy at Kiesel is comical, you can tell he isn't comfortable with screwing you but it sounds like Jeff rules with an iron fist and has his staff over a barrel.
> 
> ...


Wow, I did not know a lot of that! Thank you!


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## Bdtunn (Jan 21, 2018)

I had a Vader when they first came out, it was nice but had minor issues. I ended up selling it because every time I picked it up I saw jeffs face haha. I can't stand his attitude and the way that ship has been sailing. When they were carvin I had a great experience and no regrets. Don't know how you can't recognize repeat business as the way to go. If I did that in my industry we'd be sunk pretty fast, although I don't get too many fanboys haha


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## oracles (Jan 21, 2018)

Jeff Kiesel said:


> *I actually recorded the conversation. *



I wouldn't be broadcasting this, as what you did is absolutely illegal if the other party (Kiesel) was unaware and did not agree to being recorded.


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## Mattykoda (Jan 21, 2018)

Wow. I have one DC7X from them that I got right before a lot of issues started popping up on this forum and I think it was the constantatine's stain match error that was my deciding factor to never have repeat business with them. Even Jonathan who has some ridiculous builds by Kiesel has had trouble with them. Just goes to show how shitty Jeff's stance is behind the product with his name on it and what he believes is right.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 21, 2018)

oracles said:


> I wouldn't be broadcasting this, as what you did is absolutely illegal if the other party (Kiesel) was unaware and did not agree to being recorded.



Depends on the state.

The OP is in New York a "single party consent" state. Which means only one party needs to be made aware they're being taped, in this case it would be the OP.

Federal law is also on the OP's side.

California is a "two party consent" state, but that doesn't necessarily mean he's committed a crime. It can also be argued that since Kiesel defrauded the OP by double charging him the call is part of the commitment of a crime which bypasses California's two party consent law.


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 21, 2018)

Who the hell blacklists customers for canceling an order?


I'm honestly not even surprised anymore when. I hear cramp like this. 


Im tempted to order a guitar just to see how they would treat me.... But I can't stand the thought of giving them my money. 


I think I'm going to start a gofundme


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 21, 2018)

The whole "no soup for you" thing is just a show of impotent rage. 

They can't actually penalize someone here. If they threaten anything to the guitar, or try something with money they'll get bitch slapped by the law. So they threaten the only thing they can do and that's discontinue service. 

Even then, it's absolutely toothless. First of all, how likely is someone going to be to buy another guitar from them after these shenanigans? No one. And even those dumb enough could just have a friend or family member arrange the purchase.


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## Jeff K (Jan 21, 2018)

oracles said:


> I wouldn't be broadcasting this, as what you did is absolutely illegal if the other party (Kiesel) was unaware and did not agree to being recorded.


WRONG! 100% Legal if one party knows its being recorded in NY state.


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## Ebony (Jan 21, 2018)

The company has a website the size of a bible and they demand you to be familiar with rules posted on _facebook_?!


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 21, 2018)

I love my vm8s and my dc600, but i'll never buy another guitar from kiesel as long as they keep doing dumb shit like this.


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## Zado (Jan 21, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> The guitars were never stolen, the company or showroom was not "robbed" as per Jeff's words in that video he released


So was this confirmed?


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## spudmunkey (Jan 21, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Totally shady dealings from Kiesel. If they want to specify these special and unusual conditions they cannot rely on a Facebook video and hope that everyone watches it before they place an order, they should explain this stuff up front and get agreement from the customer before taking a deposit on an order.



To be clear, it was a Facebook Run. Just like the Guitar Porn run, you had to check out the facebook page. The specific restrictions on both the specs and the return policy were not hidden in a video, but were on the front page of the facebook group's description, and the top stickied post, and every video both in and out of the closed group had a mention to check out the Facebook group for the spec list and the terms. To get the specs that were available to order, you had to go to the page. To get tot he specs, you had top request to be admitted to the group, and the description of the group even before you go "in" had the terms.

I'm not saying it still isn't shitty...but it seems a bit like Hanlon's Razor.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 21, 2018)

Zado said:


> So was this confirmed?



Nothing was really disputed except the use of the word "robbed". Large international credit card fraud was attempted, and over a dozen (might have been 16...don't remember the exact number) guitars were shipped...don't remember the exact number. Several were stopped before they left the country, several were returned after they had left the US, and I think in the end, there were still 1 or 2 they never got back.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 21, 2018)

Zado said:


> So was this confirmed?


Pretty sure even Jeff said it wasn't "robbery." It was fraud.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 21, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> To be clear, it was a Facebook Run. Just like the Guitar Porn run, you had to check out the facebook page. The specific restrictions on both the specs and the return policy were not hidden in a video, but were on the front page of the facebook group's description, and the top stickied post, and every video both in and out of the closed group had a mention to check out the Facebook group for the spec list and the terms. To get the specs that were available to order, you had to go to the page. To get tot he specs, you had top request to be admitted to the group, and the description of the group even before you go "in" had the terms.
> 
> I'm not saying it still isn't shitty...but it seems a bit like Hanlon's Razor.



Then make it so only those in the FB group can order.

Or, you know, just ask the guy on the phone whether he knows what's up.

Shit ain't hard.

The truth is, they don't care. They rather get the cash and burn.

Last time I ordered a new Carvin, I was asked tons of questions about what I wanted and if I understood specs and terms. Seems like they don't give a damn anymore.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 21, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I'm not saying it still isn't shitty...but it seems a bit like Hanlon's Razor.



So it's not that multiple employees accross the whole organization are assholes, they're just really fucking stupid. 

Cool.


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## feraledge (Jan 21, 2018)

Woah! I almost didn't listen to the call, but I am glad I did. Joe's gasp after "I understand" is everything, this 100% comes down to Jeff being high on the short list of biggest douche bags in this industry. Mind you, there's a lot of assholes and scammers on that list. No refund after 3 months? Well, scales are tipping, once more, of Jeff going into the scammer category. 
You were totally cool, calm, and collected. Kudos for that. I've had customers absolutely lose their shit over tiny non-issues and have had to spend a ton of time just trying to get to a reasonable tone like that and they're straight scamming you here. Holding you accountable to arbitrary rules that you weren't aware of? Fuckers. 
I thought making a fuck you account under Jeff's name might have been a little overboard for a second. Nah, he's as douchey as that perfect pic you got for the audio file! 
Hope you come out on top here.


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## Veldar (Jan 21, 2018)

LOL how is Jeff still in business?

I'm never touching a kiesel after all the bs I've read/seen about it.

Kinda makes me sick that pros use their stuff and dudes like Amos from Tesseract advertise you to order from him


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## ramses (Jan 21, 2018)

This is disheartening. I love my two Carvin guitars, and I'm considering a Zeus — preemptively parrying snob attacks: I also own a couple of PRS and a couple of Suhr guitars.

It would seem that sales are so good, that screwing up a single customer every now and then is not an issue to them.


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## Jeff K (Jan 21, 2018)

ramses said:


> This is disheartening. I love my two Carvin guitars, and I'm considering a Zeus — preemptively parrying snob attacks: I also own a couple of PRS and a couple of Suhr guitars.
> 
> It would seem that sales are so good, that screwing up a single customer every now and then is not an issue to them.



Jeff's dad and uncle ran the company 1000% better. I am a guy who has dropped 20k over the past 12 or so years. How do you not work something out and make your client happy??? At no time was I a dick or unreasonable. Stick with Suhr, PRS, Tom Anderson.....Shit if your thinking of a Zeus, check out a Knaggs Kenai!! Way better guitar!


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## Lasik124 (Jan 21, 2018)

Threads like this is what made me never even look at Kiesel's

I hope everything works in your favor my man


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## Jeff K (Jan 21, 2018)

Lasik124 said:


> Threads like this is what made me never even look at Kiesel's
> 
> I hope everything works in your favor my man


Thanks bro. It will eventually bite him in the ass! Karma.


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## Discoqueen (Jan 21, 2018)

Wow. This story takes the cake. Thanks for sharing. I don’t think I’ll be buying from there ever again.


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## Vyn (Jan 22, 2018)

That audio is beyond damning... Wow.


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## vortex_infinium (Jan 22, 2018)

I am sorry to hear this happened to you. I really hope you get your money back.

I am glad you posted though. I was on the fence about a Zeus and while i'm not very active in the guitar online community I do keep hearing about certain horror stories, some of which I have been able to find, some of which I haven't. However this post in mind, when I don't have to look far to find these stories it's the type of red flag that sways my decision from a maybe to a no. Personally, i've dealt with this sort of crap from companies where i'd fully expect to deal with this sort of thing, and i'm fine with that, especially at those price points; Kiesel doesn't outsource overseas or sell cheap instruments, that in my opinion makes these sorts of things unacceptable.


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## angl2k (Jan 22, 2018)

Lol I opened this thread expecting Kiesel/Jeff making an ass out of themselves again... wasn't disappointed 

At this rate Kiesel won't be in business much longer. Well not unless they delete every negative comment on their facebook/website/etc


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## Nlelith (Jan 22, 2018)

I wonder if Mark Kiesel is aware that people generally think that his son is ruining a good name of the company. And now not only customers suffer from Jeff's way of doing business, seems like employees are not happy about it too. I mean, I would at least try to talk some sense into him. It's just not healthy that customer service can't do their job without Jeff's
interference. If Jeff-the-tin-woodman without heart isn't happy about the reason of instrument return / any other situation with the customer, then he should bite the bullet and try to eliminate the possible cause on company level, not the other way around.


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## Vyn (Jan 22, 2018)

Nlelith said:


> If Jeff-the-tin-woodman without heart isn't happy about the reason of instrument return / any other situation with the customer, then he should bite the bullet and try to eliminate the possible cause on company level, not the other way around.



Jeff litterly has to do TWO things and that's it:
1- Fire underlings and hire people who enjoy customer service and actually give a shit about the customer EDIT: I thought about this more, scratch firing the employees and just fire himself into oblivion.
2- Preferably change his Terms and Conditions to be a bit more open, but if he can't or wants to keep the existing ones, post them where they are easy to find, in multiple places and not on some secret squirrel Facebook Group.

Bonus Options
3- Fix that fucking website. It's out of the early 2000s and in bad need of an actual web designer.

4- Stop gouging the shit out of people for certain options. If a build differs a premium/surcharge is expected for sure, but Jeff is blatantly ripping people off.

That turned into a bit of a rant, apologies!


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 22, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> If Jeff-the-tin-woodman without heart isn't happy about the reason of instrument return / any other situation with the customer, then he should bite the bullet and try to eliminate the possible cause on company level, not the other way around.



Jeff cannot acknowledge that they _may_ have done anything wrong/anything is their fault.

The first step is to accept the fact that you could have screwed up/the customer is not happy and then go from there based on the evidence.

He literally thinks that every guitar that comes out of his shop is 100% perfect and that the customer is always wrong. Quite the worst business model I have ever seen.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 22, 2018)

Nlelith said:


> people generally think that his son is ruining a good name of the company



Not defending anything, but their records sales year after year might suggest otherwise.


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 22, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Not defending anything, but their records sales year after year might suggest otherwise.


Who says they are a record...? Jeff!?


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Not defending anything, but their records sales year after year might suggest otherwise.



Yeah, aside from completely kicking customer service to the curb, Kiesel is making a lot of great decisions. 

They're more active on social media. They're updating models to trend much faster and offering models more in line with what's wanted. 

That's what's so heartbreaking. I stopped buying Carvins because they stopped making guitars I wanted. Now that they are, I can't bring myself to pull the trigger.


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## bostjan (Jan 22, 2018)

According to Hoover's, Kiesel has an estimated credit rating around A or BBB, and the company's incoming revenue is over $30MUSD/year. There are plenty of sites that rave about how great the company is. According to Glassdoor, one former employee liked working at Carvin and one current employee hates it there. According to reviews of their guitars on ss.o, the company is garbage.

That may seem like a stark contrast, but, I think, there are a few things going on here.

1. The Kiesel rebranding got people excited about the brand, in general. While I have no probalem with either name: Carvin or Kiesel, I'm personally surprised that the rebranding had a positive effect. My dad played Carvin basses and both he and I used Carvin pro audio stuff for years. I saw it as a recognizable name.
2. The guitar industry, as a whole, is withering away. Most kids are not excited about playing guitar. In the 80's, when I was growing up, playing guitar was a great hobby to have to impress other kids or just to relax. In 2018, no one gives a shit about your campfire songs, no one is going to go see your band, and playing guitar isn't half as cool as...well...pretty much anything else anymore. Gibson, Fender, and PRS are no longer staying in the black, Washburn, Parker, Ovation, and Hamer are gone. Somehow Kiesel has cut through the noise and managed to keep making money by treating their customers like shit and making very questionable aesthetic choices in their designs and finishes.
3. I do see Kiesel guitars out in the wild, but, for as much money as they're making, it doesn't seem to be all that often. I see way more Ibanez and Agile guitars than Kiesels, not to mention ubiquitous legacy brands like Fender, Gibson and PRS. But I think Kiesel has found a way to sit in the middle price range whilst all of the other big brands fight for who gets to be the biggest high-ticket or budget name. Who else is really competing in Kiesel's price bracket for the service they provide? Small builders? We see how those usually turn out - either big hit or disastrous miss. If people feel more secure ordering a Kiesel, that's what they'll do. And, that's the funny thing about it, it seems like you are about just as likely to get burned with a Kiesel as you are with a no-name builder, but the perception is clear, even if it doesn't seem to match anecdotes around here.

It's been 6 or 8 years since the boom in Djent gave us our most recent crop of guitar heroes. If the most successful and highly acclaimed guitarists of our most contemporary era have to hold down day jobs to make a living, then we guitarists are either in a lull or we are a dying breed. Kiesel is in the best position out of all non-boutique builders these days, but they are also poised to crash hard if they fail to maintain that position, IMO. Of course, I don't have a business degree and I can't tell the future.

At any rate, this audio recording (from the OP) seems to strongly hint that the company's business model is more to separate people from their money than to provide a quality product. I don't see how that can be sustainable, but they've made it three-ish years with this new model, so far.


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## Jeff K (Jan 22, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Not defending anything, but their records sales year after year might suggest otherwise.


I don't think thats a true statement. But even if it is, if they keep treating people the way they treated me (and I have seen a lot of bad press), that will hurt them!
And by the way, their guitar builds are inconsistent. They may look nice, but they all don't feel great! I have had a lot of issues with them. Poor workmanship on the frets for sure! Just saying.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 22, 2018)

Jeff Kiesel said:


> They may look nice, but they all don't feel great! I have had a lot of issues with them. Poor workmanship on the frets for sure! Just saying.



That sucks. On the other hand, all 3 of mine (one fro '08, one from '16, and one used) are all fantastic.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

Jeff Kiesel said:


> I don't think thats a true statement. But even if it is, if they keep treating people the way they treated me (and I have seen a lot of bad press), that will hurt them!
> And by the way, their guitar builds are inconsistent. They may look nice, but they all don't feel great! I have had a lot of issues with them. Poor workmanship on the frets for sure! Just saying.


I own 3 kiesels and would say the fretwork is quite good, definitely on par with my custom guitars. Overall for their price points they're excellent guitars, far better than the production guitars i've had at that price point (barring my E2 which had the best fretwork of any guitar i've ever played).
If only they could bring their customer service up to par.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I own 3 kiesels and would say the fretwork is quite good, definitely on par with my custom guitars. Overall for their price points they're excellent guitars, far better than the production guitars i've had at that price point (barring my E2 which had the best fretwork of any guitar i've ever played).
> If only they could bring their customer service up to par.



I can't say I've ever had a Carvin or seen a Kiesel with bad fretwork.

They usually fuck up on fit and finish. With the occasional bonking of the neck/truss rod. 

So stuff I'm used to seeing is poorly installed hardware, tool marks on fretboard, rough cut of nut, wonky knobs, finish bleed, rough sanding of clear coat, etc. That was always easy to fix and I usually received a little bit of cash or cash off my next order. Considering how relatively cheap they were it was just fine and I kept ordering. I did get an LB bass with a screwed up truss rod, but within a week I received a full refund. They can't all be zingers.


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## Jeff K (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I own 3 kiesels and would say the fretwork is quite good, definitely on par with my custom guitars. Overall for their price points they're excellent guitars, far better than the production guitars i've had at that price point (barring my E2 which had the best fretwork of any guitar i've ever played).
> If only they could bring their customer service up to par.


My experience was different than yours. I do agree they are (or at least Carvin was) a good guitar for the price. Again Suhr, Tom Anderson, Knaggs, etc etc all better guitars hands down!


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## MFB (Jan 22, 2018)

^ Straight from the horse's mouth!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

MFB said:


> ^ Straight from the horse's mouth!



"Again Suhr, Tom Anderson, Knaggs, etc etc all better guitars hands down!" -Jeff Kiesel 

Needs to be a signature somewhere.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

Jeff Kiesel said:


> My experience was different than yours. I do agree they are (or at least Carvin was) a good guitar for the price. Again Suhr, Tom Anderson, Knaggs, etc etc all better guitars hands down!


I'm sure they are, since most of the guitars i've seen offered from those companies cost 3k or more


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## bostjan (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm sure they are, since most of the guitars i've seen offered from those companies cost 3k or more


Kiesel overlaps those prices (Anderson, Suhr, Knaggs, et al), but they certainly do offer lower priced guitars than those other brands. I think Kiesel has a more widely recognized name than those other brands, as well, and I would be surprised if any of those builders dealt with a higher volume of work than Kiesel.

FWIW IMO YMMV etc - I think Kiesel *can* build a hell of a guitar. I think that the quality issues I've seen have more or less been totally excusable, had their customer service dealt properly with the issues. But that's where the whole thing unravels. If I buy a $2500 guitar, yeah, it's cheap for a made-to-order instrument, but if I pay for the thing and then I get it and there is a design flaw in the bridge, for example, then I expect to get it fixed by the builder. If they refuse to fix it, then... well, that's a big problem. If they not only refuse to fix it, but also resort to calling me names and taking it to youtube and/or social media to pick on me, then I would probably consider getting a lawyer at that point.  I just think that those sorts of antics by any business, no matter how small or how busy they are, is totally beyond the limits of acceptable, from any perspective, even.


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## MFB (Jan 22, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> "Again Suhr, Tom Anderson, Knaggs, etc etc all better guitars hands down!" -Jeff Kiesel
> 
> Needs to be a signature somewhere.



You were saying?


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## crankyrayhanky (Jan 22, 2018)

Isn't that like saying a BMW blows away a Camry? Assuming you're not getting the Kiesel Clown K Special with everything on it


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## Steinmetzify (Jan 22, 2018)

bostjan said:


> If I buy a $2500 guitar, yeah, it's cheap for a made-to-order instrument, but if I pay for the thing and then I get it and there is a design flaw in the bridge, for example, then I expect to get it fixed by the builder. If they refuse to fix it, then... well, that's a big problem. If they not only refuse to fix it, but also resort to calling me names and taking it to youtube and/or social media to pick on me, then I would probably consider getting a lawyer at that point.  I just think that those sorts of antics by any business, no matter how small or how busy they are, is totally beyond the limits of acceptable, from any perspective, even.



These are the things that made damn sure I'd never order from them, especially when there are Andersons, Suhrs and ESPs out there. 

Buddy bought a used Anderson, and since he lives close to Tom's shop, just called and asked if he could run it over there so they could check it out for him. They told him to come ahead; Tom himself came out, remembered the guitar, asked what he liked as far as action went, set the thing up for him right there on the spot and didn't charge him a dime. Gave him a shop tour, some swag, and sent him on his way a happy camper. Buddy has bought 3 more Andersons since then, just based on his cost to value ratio, customer service satisfaction and the fact that it cost Tom nothing but a half hour of his time. THAT is customer service. 

On the lower end financially, if I'm shopping for a guitar at $1k or under, ESP gets all my money always and forever. Used or new, I don't care. Used I'll grab Standards, new I'll grab LTDs. They're fantastic guitars at that price point, I know they're gonna be on point and if I buy new and there's something wrong with it I have not one single worry in the world that they're going to take care of me; they're big enough to do so and they've always done right by me in the end, with zero hassle on my end other than alerting them to the issue. 

The fact that this guy and his company exists given his rep for CS is beyond me, especially on this site. We (SSO) are some of the pickiest motherfuckers on the interwebs regarding fit and finish vs price point and CS, and I seriously cannot believe that the dude gets any play here whatsoever, regardless of how forward thinking he is regarding design implementation. 

At this point, dude could invent the 2nd coming of the Jesus Christ guitar and I'll never know it because I'd never play the motherfucker, let alone pay him for it.

tl;dr: doesn't seem like it always goes bad when someone orders a Kiesel, but when it does go bad it goes really REALLY wrong.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm sure they are, since most of the guitars i've seen offered from those companies cost 3k or more



Apples to oranges.

Kiesel sells direct, while all those other brands sell through dealers, which adds as much as 40% to the price. 

So while the actual MAP may be higher on those brands, which when similarly spec'd isn't that much more in most cases. The guitars, if on a level playing field would likely be the same price.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Kiesel overlaps those prices (Anderson, Suhr, Knaggs, et al), but they certainly do offer lower priced guitars than those other brands. I think Kiesel has a more widely recognized name than those other brands, as well, and I would be surprised if any of those builders dealt with a higher volume of work than Kiesel.
> 
> FWIW IMO YMMV etc - I think Kiesel *can* build a hell of a guitar. I think that the quality issues I've seen have more or less been totally excusable, had their customer service dealt properly with the issues. But that's where the whole thing unravels. If I buy a $2500 guitar, yeah, it's cheap for a made-to-order instrument, but if I pay for the thing and then I get it and there is a design flaw in the bridge, for example, then I expect to get it fixed by the builder. If they refuse to fix it, then... well, that's a big problem. If they not only refuse to fix it, but also resort to calling me names and taking it to youtube and/or social media to pick on me, then I would probably consider getting a lawyer at that point.  I just think that those sorts of antics by any business, no matter how small or how busy they are, is totally beyond the limits of acceptable, from any perspective, even.



I don't think Kiesel is all that well known, even if you include Carvin, for almost a decade in recent memory they were exclusive to North America. 

That and Suhr, Anderson, Knaggs have a huge dealer network globally, which means even those not on internet message boards can easily find them.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Apples to oranges.
> 
> Kiesel sells direct, while all those other brands sell through dealers, which adds as much as 40% to the price.
> 
> So while the actual MAP may be higher on those brands, which when similarly spec'd isn't that much more in most cases. The guitars, if on a level playing field would likely be the same price.


alright, fair enough. Too bad none of those builders is doing ERG other than suhr (though their modern seven is pretty weak specswise for the $$) afaik.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 22, 2018)

Anderson makes far fewer guitars per year by choice. 
I don't think suhr is even making as many guitars as kiesel.

by all accounts kiesel is doing very well right now. Their facebook group has been growing year over year and so apparently have their guitars. Their fans are really loyal. 

the marketing strategy works. You market to a group of people that need to feel special that they are getting something at a good price that no one else knows about blah blah blah. All that good stuff.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 22, 2018)

Anderson makes far fewer guitars per year by choice. 
I don't think suhr is even making as many guitars as kiesel.

by all accounts kiesel is doing very well right now. Their facebook group has been growing year over year and so apparently have their guitars. Their fans are really loyal. 

the marketing strategy works. You market to a group of people that need to feel special that they are getting something at a good price that no one else knows about blah blah blah. All that good stuff.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> alright, fair enough. Too bad none of those builders is doing ERG other than suhr (though their modern seven is pretty weak specswise for the $$) afaik.



All three will build a 7 string and spec wise they offer just about anything as long as you're willing to pay. 

My Suhr M7 was just under $3500 delivered and a similar Kiesel would have been about $2800. That's not a huge gap considering how wonderful the process was going with Suhr and how absolutely perfect the guitar turned out, two things which are not at all a sure thing with Kiesel at the moment.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> All three will build a 7 string and spec wise they offer just about anything as long as you're willing to pay.
> 
> My Suhr M7 was just under $3500 delivered and a similar Kiesel would have been about $2800. That's not a huge gap considering how wonderful the process was going with Suhr and how absolutely perfect the guitar turned out, two things which are not at all a sure thing with Kiesel at the moment.


I was more referring to 8 strings but that's cool that they'll build 7 strings. guess i should have been more specific when I said ERG.


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## bostjan (Jan 22, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't think Kiesel is all that well known, even if you include Carvin, for almost a decade in recent memory they were exclusive to North America.
> 
> That and Suhr, Anderson, Knaggs have a huge dealer network globally, which means even those not on internet message boards can easily find them.



Just look at endorsements and notable artists.

Carvin/Kiesel:
Steve Vai, Allen Holdsworth, Greg Howe, Jason Becker, Neil Zaza, Frank Gambale.
Suhr:
Reb Beach, Guthrie Govan, Pete Thorn, umm, Mark Knopfler was somehow vaguely connected. But none of those guys make me think of "Suhr"
Anderson:
Vivian Campbell, umm Nigel Tufnel, I think...
Knaggs:
(I had to look it up, because I couldn't think of anyone) - Steve Stevens.

When I worked at music stores in Detroit, not one store where I worked carried any of those brands, but we did deal in a lot of used Carvin gear. We once got a used Tom Anderson Guitarworks guitar...once. It was an awesome instrument, but it was the only one I ever say at any of my employers. Out of other mom and pop music shops, I think there were two Anderson dealers. Definitely no Suhr dealers anywhere and, honestly, I had never heard of Knaggs until recently. But all of those shops had used Carvin stuff from time to time. So, I don't know where the sentiment that these other brands are more well known than Carvin/Kiesel is really coming from, honestly. Obviously, I don't know other people's experiences. Maybe Carvin was never a thing outside of places I've lived. But, in my experience, and based on the people I know personally, Kiesel is hands down a more known brand.


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## cip 123 (Jan 22, 2018)

Kiesel build nice looking guitars, my Carvin (i view them as entirely the same thing) looks better than any other guitar I own but it does not play better than any, which is a shame especially after reading this thread. It's my dream guitar but thread after thread like this I'm almost ashamed to own it.


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## Tonal_Blasphemy (Jan 22, 2018)

It seems Jeff and his people really enjoy customer quality control. Meaning, if you talk shit about the brand because you had a bad experience, Jeff and his fanboy squad will rip you apart on FB. Jeff and his people will tell you you're banned from purchasing Kiesel gear. They don't handle criticism well over there. Sorry to hear yet another sad Kiesel experience.


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## Edika (Jan 22, 2018)

Now I might take some flak for this and I'm not defending Kiesel's marketing strategy, youtube clown antics, bitchy tantrums and the horror stories by people, how they've been addressed and the current state of their customer service.

However since this was a facebook run where the rules were stated and specific they can't know or be sure that the OP didn't read them and then just decided to do whatever. I'm taking the OP's word that he wasn't aware about them but they can't know. And if they allow one person to change specs or cancel orders in these runs then some people might get buyers remorse and start having cancellations and spec changes on what would seem a set in stone run.

Now charging double the amount of deposit is not cool at all. Also the sales person should have gone through the rules of the run just as a precaution and not assume that all ordering were aware of them. Or at least sent a terms and conditions email to accept and go ahead then with the purchase as the OP said.

Anyway I hope you get your money back and I can understand your crappy experience, especially for someone that has dropped 20k in their products. I can understand not wanting to do changes and refunds for the specific run but they could have handled the situation so much better. And since Jeff (not the OP) has been a repeat offender in shitty customer service there's no doubt things will only get worse with the brand.


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 22, 2018)

cip 123 said:


> Kiesel build nice looking guitars, my Carvin (i view them as entirely the same thing) looks better than any other guitar I own but it does not play better than any, which is a shame especially after reading this thread. It's my dream guitar but thread after thread like this I'm almost ashamed to own it.


I love my Carvin (I view them as entirely different brands because of who is running the company), it looks like shit (pretty beat up) but plays like a dream and the tone is massive.

I really want a Kiesel, but at the same time HATE Jeff's attitude towards customers so he's not getting a penny of my money because I fear the customer service they offer. 

The guitar I want is like $1500 and a very simple build with nothing crazy as far as woods go. Basically a dc127 in that electric blue or whatever they call it. I feel like cause I'm not spending 3k+ they will half ass it and not take it back if it's shit.

For $1500 I would rather buy a Prestige I know I will like and I know can be returned if it's shit.


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## feraledge (Jan 22, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> I feel like cause I'm not spending 3k+ they will half ass it and not take it back if it's shit.


You're better off not doing anything special so long as they still have the 10 day return policy. It sounds like that might be iffy anyways.
That said, the opposite is true on their logic and, potentially, their abilities. They build $900-1500 guitars, straight up. Everything else is just a mark up on difference in parts, finishes or color. They aren't half assing it for not spending more, they're just building to their more-mid-than-high tier quality level guitars even when the total ends up over $2-3k. As far as I know there is no "Master Built" option other than the implication that Jeff himself is a "Master Builder" and that his involvement on picking specific woods means anything. He isn't and it doesn't.
Anything over $1500 on Kiesel and you're just paying for options, not higher quality work. In theory, it is what it is, a semi-custom shop with expensive options. In my opinion, even with personality issues aside, for anything over $1500, not worth it.


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 22, 2018)

feraledge said:


> You're better off not doing anything special so long as they still have the 10 day return policy. It sounds like that might be iffy anyways.
> That said, the opposite is true on their logic and, potentially, their abilities. They build $900-1500 guitars, straight up. Everything else is just a mark up on difference in parts, finishes or color. They aren't half assing it for not spending more, they're just building to their more-mid-than-high tier quality level guitars even when the total ends up over $2-3k. As far as I know there is no "Master Built" option other than the implication that Jeff himself is a "Master Builder" and that his involvement on picking specific woods means anything. He isn't and it doesn't.
> Anything over $1500 on Kiesel and you're just paying for options, not higher quality work. In theory, it is what it is, a semi-custom shop with expensive options. In my opinion, even with personality issues aside, for anything over $1500, not worth it.


Good information to know!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 22, 2018)

Yeah, no such thing as a quality ladder at Kiesel, which is actually probably a good thing.

It's definitely one of thier biggest positives.

Even back in the Carvin days I'd tell folks to avoid any option they didn't absolutely 110% need.

Carvin/Kiesel makes thier money on the options and add-ons. That's why the base prices haven't gone up much at all but prices on options have skyrocketed over the last few years. They're also keeping the base models more basic.


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## gunch (Jan 22, 2018)

Zazz at Carvin came at a price

Ps yeah the Zeus is damn cool looking, shit


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## RockMixer (Jan 22, 2018)

Wow...this sucks!
When Carvin was Carvin, I thought they were a pretty good company with decent gear and prices.
Ever since they became Kiesel I hear many issues! I would never deal with them.


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## Avedas (Jan 22, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Just look at endorsements and notable artists.
> So, I don't know where the sentiment that these other brands are more well known than Carvin/Kiesel is really coming from, honestly. Obviously, I don't know other people's experiences. Maybe Carvin was never a thing outside of places I've lived. But, in my experience, and based on the people I know personally, Kiesel is hands down a more known brand.


Shops here are flooded with Suhr and Tom Anderson and even some Knaggs. I've never seen a Carvin/Kiesel once. Pretty sure it just depends where you live.


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## B.M.F. (Jan 22, 2018)

RockMixer said:


> Wow...this sucks! When Carvin was Carvin, I thought they were a pretty good company with decent gear and prices.
> Ever since they became Kiesel I hear many issues! I would never deal with them.


I echo this 100%, I loved Carvin when they were around! I had a SX-200 as my high school practice combo amp and played shows with it as a pedal platform. I remember the catalogs that were full of every option for the guitar and basses with all the paints, finishes, colors listed out, those catalogs were beautiful. You could spend days putting options together. At their Hollywood store, where I got the mentioned amp, I got to play a few Carvins as well whenever I visited, and they were always a consideration, great guitars. They made everything you wanted, pickups, parts, strings, you name it!
Honestly the whole Kiesel name switch and transition threw me off guard, I didn't know what took place until well after it happened. It sucks to hear so much bad things about them now. And some of the finishes are butt ugly as well.


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## crankyrayhanky (Jan 22, 2018)

feraledge said:


> You're better off not doing anything special so long as they still have the 10 day return policy....They build $900-1500 guitars, straight up. Everything else is just a mark up on difference in parts, finishes or color. ...the implication that Jeff himself is a "Master Builder" ... He isn't and it doesn't.
> Anything over $1500 on Kiesel and you're just paying for options, not higher quality work. In theory, it is what it is, a semi-custom shop with expensive options.


Jeff's not a talented builder? Serious question, he seems involved on the floor. He definitely wants the credit, lol!
I spec'd a multiscale 7 for around 15-1800 I think. Stayed with a 1 piece mahogany neck and no crazy clown paint. That guitar rocks! But tbh I never played a Suhr or TA



BlasphemyMadeFlesh said:


> And some of the finishes are butt ugly as well.


The more time you spend on that buildup page adding options, the worse your guitar looks yet more $


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## feraledge (Jan 23, 2018)

crankyrayhanky said:


> Jeff's not a talented builder? Serious question, he seems involved on the floor. He definitely wants the credit, lol!
> I spec'd a multiscale 7 for around 15-1800 I think. Stayed with a 1 piece mahogany neck and no crazy clown paint. That guitar rocks! But tbh I never played a Suhr or TA


There are plenty of solid luthiers out there. They can build some really solid guitars. Jeff might be one of those people, but it seems like, almost disproportionately that more people who get guitars where Jeff was involved, that they didn't walk away aware near more stoked than the general Carvin/Kiesel clients. In fact, seems like there's been more complaints of the K series, which I admit is a very pedestrian view of mine, I don't care about Kiesel NGDs as much as most other builders.
What I think a big part of that comes down to the fact that with the heftier price tag and inclusion of Jeff in the build, based largely off his own media presentation, it's disappointing to see that it's still a $1500 guitar that cost a hell of a lot more.
So talented builder? Acceptable. But he's no Mike Shannon, Grover Jackson, or anything like that, which is my point. And especially when it comes to design. Kiesel has the least models out there that I think are genuinely good.

I can qualify this a bit. I had a V6 that I liked and sounded really good. Unlike a lot of people, I actually liked the Lithiums too. I ended up selling it because it felt like a niche guitar and I defaulted back to my normal mode: headstocks are good. It played like a guitar in its price range (roughly $1200) should, possibly on the higher side. But I own a custom ESP and a custom from Sully. I've owned USA Jacksons and two other ESP customs. There is no question in my mind at all that the custom guitars were built by phenomenal luthiers. It's enough to say that the difference in tiers was tangible immediately when you pick those guitars up.
I don't think I've seen anyone walking away with higher tag Kiesels just glowing with the same confidence you get with a guitar built on the level Jeff wants to pretend he's at.
I think the idea of Jeff as luthier is marketing. He's inherited and subsequently shit on the Carvin legacy. That's not earned. He might have spent time on the floor, but I bet there are plenty of builders there that have done it for far longer and have much better experience and ideas.

That said, if he's actually involved in painting some of the guitars he's so proud of, he's fucking shit at that. Couldn't pull off a fade to save their lives. So he might be able to put a guitar together physically, but when it comes to vision and final presentation, I'd say he's so far from talented that it hurts.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 23, 2018)

Compared to someone like Ron Thorn, who I feel is at the apex of modern guitar building, Jeff is an amateur. 

There is no finesse in Kiesel builds. From the design, to the lack of touches like binding, simplistic inlay, and sometimes mismatched billet. 

Kiesel glues up some planed billet, has the woodshop mill the guitar, slap hardware and electronics in, and applies finish. 

Not to mention the lack of regard to timber choice and matching. 

But, he's not building guitars at the level of Thorn, so it can be excused. 

Hence why I feel that the K Series is lacking at it's price point. That's Thorn money.


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## Curt (Jan 23, 2018)

For what I'd want out of a Kiesel Vader multiscale, solid gloss color, birdseye maple fretboard, stock alder body/maple neck, it comes out to just under $1500. And that's the sad thing, is that for that $1500 I'm not really getting much of anything I couldn't get at the same price from various other companies today, now add to that the horror stories as of late and it's just impossible to allow myself to give my business to a company like that. It gets kind of sad when I would likely consider Halo guitars over a company that used to be held in rather high regard around here.


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## Zado (Jan 23, 2018)

So the guys actually builds guitars? I thought he was just the president/social guy/hyperider


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## Esp Griffyn (Jan 23, 2018)

Interesting moment on the Kiesel facebook there, guy just posted his guitar with a crack in the ebony fretboard, that had already been back to Kiesel once for a repair, he asked for a new fretboard, they glued the cracked wood up. A few months later, the crack is back and Kiesel want him to pay for shipping if he wants it repaired again.

There were some genuinely lol comments like "cracks in ebony is a known thing that you have to expect ebony boards" and "This is between you and Kiesel", despite being a useful insight into how they treat their customers.

It didn't last 10 minutes before the post was removed. Kiesel only build perfect guitars, right?


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## crankyrayhanky (Jan 23, 2018)

For real? Wow, that's awful if accurate


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 23, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> "cracks in ebony is a known thing that you have to expect ebony boards"



I bet this guy would be pissed off the second he sees a company that isn't Kiesel ship either him or someone else a cracked ebony board. 

Also they make it sound like an ebony board cracking is as common as nitro checking.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 23, 2018)

Well, ebony can be prone to cracking. Real, super tight grained, jet black ebony with its thin long grain is one of the most prone. Especially if it's newer cut and not properly seasoned before use. 

You don't see cracking as much on mass produced guitars these days because they use dyes and chemical stabilizers on cheaper cuts. 

I'm not saying Kiesel or that internet melvin is right. But without details as to the storage and care of the guitar, or seeing the crack itself, or seeing how it was repaired leaves too much unknown to really say who is wrong.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 23, 2018)

I bought some bolivian rosewood that had been in a wood supply store for well over 2 years (the price sticker was dated). All I did to it was cut off the end 2-3" because I didn't like the grain there. After i cut off that end piece, it split almost 2/3 of the way down the 3ft board.

It's not an indication of "poor wood conditioning". Wood's a natural material that can have all sorts of internal stresses. [tangent]I once tried ripping a 2x6 on my table saw into two 2x3 boards. Once the board went past my saw blade, the two now-split halves started pinching back together, pinching the back of the saw blade hard enough that the board started to rise up and tried to twist. It could have lead to some catastrophic kick-back if I didn't have my pawls installed (which reminds me...I should really re-install that...).[/tangent]

I remembered when that person first posted their issue with the hairline crack in the fretboard, and then there was this follow up of the same crack. With that said, I believe it's MAYBE the 2nd complaint of their cracked ebony I've ever seen. Google "ebony crack" and you'll get countless results from both: people who say they have cracks and people who say ebony is prone to cracking.

One example does not an epidemic make, in regards to "they don't dry their wood good enough".

That said, it's still a defect, whether it's their "fault" or not, and should have taken care of it for the customer. Part of the cost of doing business internationally...is the actual COST of doing international warranty service.


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## Jeff K (Jan 24, 2018)

Update. So my CC company finally credited me back the money. Now I just have to wait and see if Kiesel tries to fight it.


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## Overtone (Jan 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I bought some bolivian rosewood that had been in a wood supply store for well over 2 years (the price sticker was dated). All I did to it was cut off the end 2-3" because I didn't like the grain there. After i cut off that end piece, it split almost 2/3 of the way down the 3ft board.
> 
> It's not an indication of "poor wood conditioning". Wood's a natural material that can have all sorts of internal stresses. [tangent]I once tried ripping a 2x6 on my table saw into two 2x3 boards. Once the board went past my saw blade, the two now-split halves started pinching back together, pinching the back of the saw blade hard enough that the board started to rise up and tried to twist. It could have lead to some catastrophic kick-back if I didn't have my pawls installed (which reminds me...I should really re-install that...).[/tangent]
> 
> ...



I think I'll save googling "ebony crack" for alone time.


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## ArtDecade (Jan 24, 2018)

Overtone said:


> I think I'll save googling "ebony crack" for alone time.



When the band _Asia_ celebrated their 30th Anniversary back in 2012, they released an album called, XXX. 
I would not suggest googling "Asia XXX" while at work.


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## MikeNeal (Jan 24, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Well, ebony can be prone to cracking. Real, super tight grained, jet black ebony with its thin long grain is one of the most prone. Especially if it's newer cut and not properly seasoned before use.
> 
> You don't see cracking as much on mass produced guitars these days because they use dyes and chemical stabilizers on cheaper cuts.
> 
> I'm not saying Kiesel or that internet melvin is right. But without details as to the storage and care of the guitar, or seeing the crack itself, or seeing how it was repaired leaves too much unknown to really say who is wrong.



bingo. i find ebony is VERY susceptible to humidity swings, and rapid moisture content swings - maybe the worst (besides snakewood)


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## spudmunkey (Jan 24, 2018)

Overtone said:


> I think I'll save googling "ebony crack" for alone time.



OK, so I was on my work computer where I've got "safe search" on, so I didn't get any 'questionable' results.


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## Restarted (Jan 25, 2018)

The way Kiesel FB handled the review made me almost puke. What the fuck?


Jeff Kiesel said:


> Update. So my CC company finally credited me back the money. Now I just have to wait and see if Kiesel tries to fight it.


That's great news


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## cwhitey2 (Jan 25, 2018)

Jeff Kiesel said:


> Update. So my CC company finally credited me back the money. Now I just have to wait and see if Kiesel tries to fight it.



That's awesome! I kinda figured they would give you your money.

Please do let us know how little Jeffery reacts!


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## Overtone (Jan 25, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> OK, so I was on my work computer where I've got "safe search" on, so I didn't get any 'questionable' results.



Good call with the safe search at work!


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## Mike Jones (Jan 30, 2018)

Peter, I was not your sales person on this order. You and I never spoke about this run. Your sales person was Chris.


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## Albake21 (Jan 30, 2018)

Mike Jones said:


> Peter, I was not your sales person on this order. You and I never spoke about this run. Your sales person was Chris.


Glad to finally see a Kiesel employee here.


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## cip 123 (Jan 30, 2018)

The plot thickens


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## -JeKo- (Jan 31, 2018)

Esp Griffyn said:


> Interesting moment on the Kiesel facebook there, guy just posted his guitar with a crack in the ebony fretboard, that had already been back to Kiesel once for a repair, he asked for a new fretboard, they glued the cracked wood up. A few months later, the crack is back and Kiesel want him to pay for shipping if he wants it repaired again.
> 
> There were some genuinely lol comments like "cracks in ebony is a known thing that you have to expect ebony boards" and "This is between you and Kiesel", despite being a useful insight into how they treat their customers.
> 
> It didn't last 10 minutes before the post was removed. Kiesel only build perfect guitars, right?



That's my guitar. It's going to back to Kiesel this week. I'll give you an update once I got more info!


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## sezna (Jan 31, 2018)

-JeKo- said:


> That's my guitar. It's going to back to Kiesel this week. I'll give you an update once I got more info!


did you have to cover shipping? are you salty about your post being removed? tell us the goods


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## -JeKo- (Jan 31, 2018)

sezna said:


> did you have to cover shipping? are you salty about your post being removed? tell us the goods



Yeah, they finally agreed to do it. I'm not happy about the fact that they've deleted both my posts. At this point I just want them to replace the fretboard or build me a completely new guitar. I also asked for a refund but they told me no.


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## Mike Jones (Jan 31, 2018)

Jeff K said:


> ...*I spoke with Mike Jones, went through the specifics, gave him my credit card and placed the order. They were only supposed to take a 300 deposit as per Mike Jones. They banged my card for over $600. The very next day (less than 13 hours since I placed the order), I called back and spoke to Mike. I wanted to make a few changes on the guitar. I have done this in the past when ordering from Kiesel. Mike told me NO. He said it was against the rules. I was like what rules? Mike said, the rules that were posted on Facebook....*



Peter, as I mentioned above, I was not your sales person on this order. Chris Hong was your sales person. Can you please pull my name off of this post, because this was not a transaction between you and me. You and I have done several builds together in the past, and they have been smooth, fun, and fine. Please keep in mind that this is how I make my living, this is my real name, and this shows up when someone searches for me. I have frustrated others on this board in the past, and I understand that and have had to move forward with it, but this issue was not between you and me.


----------



## Jeff K (Jan 31, 2018)

Mike Jones said:


> Peter, as I mentioned above, I was not your sales person on this order. Chris Hong was your sales person. Can you please pull my name off of this post, because this was not a transaction between you and me. You and I have done several builds together in the past, and they have been smooth, fun, and fine. Please keep in mind that this is how I make my living, this is my real name, and this shows up when someone searches for me. I have frustrated others on this board in the past, and I understand that and have had to move forward with it, but this issue was not between you and me.



Mike, sorry if I mixed it up. I do not see a place to edit the post. I have to say, I can not believe Jeff would not work with me. I have bought so many guitars from you guys. I am so disgusted, I am selling them all!!! I can also tell you that this has cause Kiesel to lose sales! JK is on some kind of power trip and karma will prevail. Very frustrating and upsetting to be treated the way I was.


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## Jeff K (Feb 1, 2018)

Mike Jones said:


> Peter, as I mentioned above, I was not your sales person on this order. Chris Hong was your sales person. Can you please pull my name off of this post, because this was not a transaction between you and me. You and I have done several builds together in the past, and they have been smooth, fun, and fine. Please keep in mind that this is how I make my living, this is my real name, and this shows up when someone searches for me. I have frustrated others on this board in the past, and I understand that and have had to move forward with it, but this issue was not between you and me.



Mike, also since I was not sent a receipt or any paperwork, that is another reason I may have mixed it up. I have bought several guitars through you and Chris. But the issue at hand really is not you, or Chris. It comes down to a legacy customer who has spent a lot of money with Carvin / Kiesel and then being treated like a piece of crap. NO CUSTOMER LOYALTY!! There are absolutely certain situations where things can be done! I would bend over backwards for one of my good clients!


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 1, 2018)




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## diagrammatiks (Feb 1, 2018)

Wow. Sure the OP got the wrong salesperson...
But aren't you one of three sales people at a small private family owned business? Aren't you guys a team?
No defense, no shedding light on the story...just..hey wasn't my fault it was the other guy.
tight ship you guys are running over there.


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## Restarted (Feb 1, 2018)

Whatever happened, happened and OP is banned from ordering again. At this point, Mike Jones understandably wants his name out of this and my personal guess is that he's unable to do anything. He's not here to fix things. He's not here on behalf of Kiesel. He's here because this thread, like he stated, takes a straight jab at his living.


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## Albake21 (Feb 1, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Wow. Sure the OP got the wrong salesperson...
> But aren't you one of three sales people at a small private family owned business? Aren't you guys a team?
> No defense, no shedding light on the story...just..hey wasn't my fault it was the other guy.
> tight ship you guys are running over there.


Well I mean, I sure wouldn't want my name on a bash post if it wasn't even me involved. Doesn't matter if we were a team or not, as a sales person, you have a reputation to take care of.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 1, 2018)

Restarted said:


> Whatever happened, happened and OP is banned from ordering again. At this point, Mike Jones understandably wants his name out of this and my personal guess is that he's unable to do anything. He's not here to fix things. He's not here on behalf of Kiesel. He's here because this thread, like he stated, takes a straight jab at his living.



like a said. tight ship over there.
look it doesn't matter whose name is on the post up there..unless the three of them are fighting for commissions.
if this story and the audio recording are all as the op says it..it hurts the entire company which hurts all the sales people.


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## Restarted (Feb 1, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> like a said. tight ship over there.
> look it doesn't matter whose name is on the post up there..unless the three of them are fighting for commissions.
> if this story and the audio recording are all as the op says it..it hurts the entire company which hurts all the sales people.



Of course it matters. Would you be fine with getting a pay cut straight out of your commission because you'll be getting less sales because of a colleague's mistake?


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 1, 2018)

Restarted said:


> Of course it matters. Would you be fine with getting a pay cut straight out of your commission because you'll be getting less sales because of a colleague's mistake?



this entire story makes our company looks like a clusterfuck but hey if you want to order a guitar from us. make sure it's from me. I had nothing to do with this. 

makes sense.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2018)

Running a company like this can lead to collateral damage. It sucks, but that's how that goes. It's not Chris Hong guitars or Mike Jones guitars, it's Kiesel. Running the company a certain way has the ability to affect everyone. 

I'll update the OP with the right name, for what it's worth.


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## Restarted (Feb 1, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> this entire story makes our company looks like a clusterfuck but hey if you want to order a guitar from us. make sure it's from me. I had nothing to do with this.
> 
> makes sense.


Yes it does make sense. You got sales people trying to fix whatever shit the (extremely stupid, spoiled brat) boss throws around in a company taking more orders than they can handle. The most you can do is make sure your reputation is solid if/when you move away. This isn't Mike Jones' company. There's only so much he can do, and I'm 100% sure he's not allowed to comment on this as he's not PR. The only thing he can do is get his name out of this clusterfuck/clown fiesta of a story.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 1, 2018)

Restarted said:


> Yes it does make sense. You got sales people trying to fix whatever shit the (extremely stupid, spoiled brat) boss throws around in a company taking more orders than they can handle. The most you can do is make sure your reputation is solid if/when you move away. This isn't Mike Jones' company. There's only so much he can do, and I'm 100% sure he's not allowed to comment on this as he's not PR. The only thing he can do is get his name out of this clusterfuck/clown fiesta of a story.



right which is why i remarked that sarcastically that everything seems great over there.
At a well run company, even if you work on commission, if you are a good employee it's a team effort. You would never single yourself out like this.
At a clusterfuck..it's everyman for himself.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 1, 2018)

I did a google and this thread was the 2nd thing that came up


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## Albake21 (Feb 1, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> I did a google and this thread was the 2nd thing that came up


What did you google?


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## Restarted (Feb 1, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> At a well run company


And this might be the first time these words have been said in a Kiesel thread haha.


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## Random3 (Feb 1, 2018)

Shitty business practices aside, you can't blame Mike for wanting his name removed. There is a difference between slagging off a company and slagging off a specific employee, who in this case had nothing to do with the customer.

I have to agree that treating anyone like this, even moreso if they are a repeat customer who has spent thousands, is bullshit.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 1, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> What did you google?


Mike Jones Keisel


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## Albake21 (Feb 1, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> Mike Jones Keisel


Oh man, when you google "Mike Jones Kiesel" you get 4 bad experiences in a row... That's sad to see.


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## Random3 (Feb 1, 2018)

Arguably worse, if you type in "Kiesel Customer Service", 6/10 of the first page of search results are bad experiences...


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 1, 2018)

I bet you Jeff really wishes he had control over the entire internet! I'm also surprised he hasn't banned the entire interweb from buying from his company 

Also, I wonder if he sits around watching SSO posts and does research on our user names to find out who we really are..? He probably sitting at home right now making a black list


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## stevexc (Feb 1, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> Also, I wonder if he sits around watching SSO posts and does research on our user names to find out who we really are..? He probably sitting at home right now making a black list



Uh oh, I wonder what he thinks about my mockups...


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 1, 2018)

stevexc said:


> Uh oh, I wonder what he thinks about my mockups...



Well unless they look like shit, I don't think he will care...he only wants shit colors/bursts.


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## stevexc (Feb 1, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> Well unless they look like shit, I don't think he will care...he only wants shit colors/bursts.



I'll let you be the judge...


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 1, 2018)

stevexc said:


> I'll let you be the judge...



Jeff: MOTHER OF GOD....You're hired!





edit: how drunk were you when you made those


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## Gravy Train (Feb 1, 2018)

stevexc said:


> I'll let you be the judge...



Dear God, I just spat my drink all over my desk


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## stevexc (Feb 1, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> edit: how drunk were you when you made those



Not drunk enough to justify it


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## Paul McAleer (Feb 1, 2018)

stevexc said:


> I'll let you be the judge...



Dear god what is wrong with you man


----------



## mastapimp (Feb 1, 2018)

stevexc said:


> I'll let you be the judge...



As ridiculous as "Donkey Sauce Nacho Burst with FlavorTown fingerboard treatment" may sound, it's an accurate description of some of the Kiesel monstrosities that show up on the funny guitar post. The Guy Fieri collaboration is pure gold.


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## feraledge (Feb 1, 2018)

Paul McAleer said:


> Dear god what is wrong with you man


Watch it, buddy. Stevexc's Kiesel mock ups are SSO's sacred ground.


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## feraledge (Feb 1, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> Oh man, when you google "Mike Jones Kiesel" you get 4 bad experiences in a row... That's sad to see.


With a mod clean up, he's back to a solid 3. Things are looking up for ol' Mike Jones, it's gonna be a great day.

Historically speaking, combing SSO threads is a Kiesel tradition including having harassed mods to delete posts and lock threads. At least they aren't able to hold their ads hostage anymore, which is why I'm a contributor here and you should be too.


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## Albake21 (Feb 1, 2018)

feraledge said:


> With a mod clean up, he's back to a solid 3. Things are looking up for ol' Mike Jones, it's gonna be a great day.
> 
> Historically speaking, combing SSO threads is a Kiesel tradition including having harassed mods to delete posts and lock threads. At least they aren't able to hold their ads hostage anymore, which is why I'm a contributor here and you should be too.


How does one become a contributor?


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 1, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> How does one become a contributor?



http://www.sevenstring.org/account/upgrades


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## arasys (Feb 1, 2018)

Kiesel Guitars as a company reminds me of the saying: "you're only as strong as your weakest link".


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## Vhyle (Feb 1, 2018)

I've never bought a Kiesel, nor have I ever really considered it. I've played a few that all belong to a buddy, and I'll admit they play pretty well. But, I don't really care much for them. I have a couple other friends who own them (and one is an endorsed artist), but I've never really talked to them about it. They seem to enjoy their instruments so there's no point.

But man, the amount of horror stories I've read about dealing with them - stories that are littered all across the internet, combined with Jeff's ridiculous antics on his videos and his overall awful behavior... I don't see why anyone would be willing to deal with them, at all. It's just one bad story over another, and 95% of the time it's with their customer service. Again, I'm not even bashing their craftsmanship. I'm merely pointing out that there is so much public scrutiny about their PR and customer relations, it's truly mind-boggling. Just a few milliseconds of Google time will show you, up front, the nightmares that paying customers have endured.

I don't understand why anyone today would even consider the risk of dealing with them at this point. I understand that they are capable of making great instruments. But their public display towards customers - an easily accessible public display, mind you - is just a complete turn-off to even THINK about spending a dime with them. That's just me, I guess, because I still see people pulling the trigger on them. If it works out for them, then hey, it's all gravy. It just seems like such a huge gamble now, with thousands of dollars at stake.


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## Omzig (Feb 1, 2018)

Well OP glad to hear your CC came through for you...as for the rest i think clusterfuck about sums up Kiesel these days,I own 2 89/91 Carvins and love both of them,i was thinking of pulling the trigger on a jb200 but from what ive read over the past 2 years nope not now i just can't bring myself to support a company that acts this way looks like i'll just wait for a used to surface this side of the pond...

I'll just leave this here from a video of the late great allan holdsworth talking about Carvin's CS....so you can hear what was once is now no more.



skip to 27:10 time stamp isn't linking


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## Slunk Dragon (Feb 2, 2018)

And to think I was getting close to pulling the trigger on getting a Zeus 8 from them. So glad I started poking around on here again, they won't get a cent of my money.


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## DiezelMonster (Feb 2, 2018)

I was momentarily interested in an Osiris and only momentarily, I've read so many negative things and then this thread came across mine eyes, holy hell, what a shit show.

Jeff K really reminds me of that Pawn Stars tv show, and just screams AMERICA to me, not a bad thing per se but just makes me turn the other way.


So Thank you for posting, I hope you get it sorted out!


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## shadowlife (Feb 3, 2018)

Every time I think of ordering a guitar from them, I see one of these threads, and it reminds me why I never will.


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## Vyn (Feb 4, 2018)

DiezelMonster said:


> I was momentarily interested in an Osiris and only momentarily, I've read so many negative things and then this thread came across mine eyes, holy hell, what a shit show.
> 
> Jeff K really reminds me of that Pawn Stars tv show, and just screams AMERICA to me, not a bad thing per se but just makes me turn the other way.
> 
> ...



This. It screams 'MURICA and in a bad way. Jeff is like the Donald Trump of the guitar world.


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## Petar Bogdanov (Feb 4, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> I did a google and this thread was the 2nd thing that came up



Google searches are 100% customized to you, so unless you use incognito, it doesn't mean much. It's merely the 6th result with incognito mode.


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## bracky (Feb 4, 2018)

Seems to me OP needs to learn to read. Simple as that. This was a limited run advertised only on Facebook. The terms and conditions were posted front and center. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I’d keep the deposit also.


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## RockMixer (Feb 4, 2018)

bracky said:


> Seems to me OP needs to learn to read. Simple as that. This was a limited run advertised only on Facebook. The terms and conditions were posted front and center. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I’d keep the deposit also.


Did you read the original posts? He saw part of a live video. There was not info about a FB page. He was a loyal Kiesel customer and wanted to support, so he called up and ordered the guitar. I think your wrong about this. It 100% not cut and dry. Jeff is a bit arrogant in MHO.


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## cip 123 (Feb 4, 2018)

bracky said:


> Seems to me OP needs to learn to read. Simple as that. This was a limited run advertised only on Facebook. The terms and conditions were posted front and center. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I’d keep the deposit also.



Pretty sure nowhere said they'd take double the deposit. Pretty sure it's not hard to email a receipt, and i'm also pretty sure that cancelling an order isn't that hard after such a short time from placing the order. Kiesel could've went "okay" then announced on their fabled facebook page that another spot had opened up.


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## Vhyle (Feb 4, 2018)

bracky said:


> Seems to me OP needs to learn to read. Simple as that. This was a limited run advertised only on Facebook. The terms and conditions were posted front and center. It seems pretty cut and dry to me. I’d keep the deposit also.



lol, ok


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2018)

I just read some threads complaining about kiesel CS on other forums, there was one where the guy didn't want jeff's signature on his aries and they basically told him they were going to sign it anyways. They claimed it was part of marking it as being in a limited run and that it had to be signed. I also read a recent thread where a customer sent in reference photos to get a certain finish and they fucked up and gave him a completely different finish (no I'm not talking about the infamous agile oceanburst colormatch). 
What the customer wanted:





what the customer got:


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 4, 2018)

Yeah, I doubt this is news to anyone, but Jeff is mistreating people at the expense of his own business, and only for his own ego. None of the many examples I've read of crappy customer service seemed to be due to a customer who was in the "wrong." Instead, in many cases, Jeff has screwed his company out of thousands of dollars of future sales, and taken a company with virtually 100% trust and confidence of the market, and reduced it to the point people are literally scared to order directly from them. I'm sure he rationalizes it with the temporarily inflated bottom line, but Kiesel has not been around for decades because of hubris. If this keeps up, there will be a competitor that sees an opportunity, and takes their business completely.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, I doubt this is news to anyone, but Jeff is mistreating people at the expense of his own business, and only for his own ego. None of the many examples I've read of crappy customer service seemed to be due to a customer who was in the "wrong." Instead, in many cases, Jeff has screwed his company out of thousands of dollars of future sales, and taken a company with virtually 100% trust and confidence of the market, and reduced it to the point people are literally scared to order directly from them. I'm sure he rationalizes it with the temporarily inflated bottom line, but Kiesel has not been around for decades because of hubris. If this keeps up, there will be a competitor that sees an opportunity, and takes their business completely.


Agreed, he's totally destroyed his company's rep as far as their customer service goes. The whole reason I ordered from them initially was because I'd heard very good things about their guitars and that they had great customer service. 
From what I've seen strandberg is outpacing Kiesel as far as the headless market goes and they have far superior customer service. 
It'd be one thing if they did shoddy work consistently like Legator, but I find it so much more difficult to dislike the company considering how well all of my guitars have turned out. But that's what bothers me, is that kiesel generally makes pretty good guitars (or great guitars in my case) but their customer service and reactions to relatively reasonable requests (like not having jeff sign the customer's guitar) have soured me from ordering from them.


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## Hollowway (Feb 4, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Agreed, he's totally destroyed his company's rep as far as their customer service goes. The whole reason I ordered from them initially was because I'd heard very good things about their guitars and that they had great customer service.
> From what I've seen strandberg is outpacing Kiesel as far as the headless market goes and they have far superior customer service.
> It'd be one thing if they did shoddy work consistently like Legator, but I find it so much more difficult to dislike the company considering how well all of my guitars have turned out. But that's what bothers me, is that kiesel generally makes pretty good guitars (or great guitars in my case) but their customer service and reactions to relatively reasonable requests (like not having jeff sign the customer's guitar) have soured me from ordering from them.


EXACTLY! I have two Kiesels, and they're two of my best playing guitars. If I felt supremely confident in ordering from them, I would totally get more. You and I love 8 strings - and Kiesel should be siphoning money out of our wallets left and right. So they really must be doing something wrong.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 4, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> EXACTLY! I have two Kiesels, and they're two of my best playing guitars. If I felt supremely confident in ordering from them, I would totally get more. You and I love 8 strings - and Kiesel should be siphoning money out of our wallets left and right. So they really must be doing something wrong.


EXACTLY. All of my kiesels play as well as my customs. I'd put my dc600 on par with nearly any 6 string I've played barring this one amazing esp horizon 3 I tried. All they need is better customer service like strandberg and less fuckery from jeff (which I don't think is going to happen anytime soon sadly). I would settle for just better customer service and clearer terms in their builder.


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## QuantumCybin (Feb 4, 2018)

LOL. No one wants your shitty autograph on a guitar, Jeff. Does this dude think he's the next Les Paul or something? Get the fuck out of here, man.


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## Floppystrings (Feb 5, 2018)

Jeff K said:


> WRONG! 100% Legal if one party knows its being recorded in NY state.



*"California's wiretapping law* is a "two-party consent" *law*. *California* makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code § 632."

https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=california+wiretap+law&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


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## WestOfSeven (Feb 5, 2018)

I'm just getting back into guitar after a hiatus of a couple of years and was going to order two dc7x's tonight 

Its a good thing I came over here and logged back in before I placed the orders 

Will no longer be doing business with Kiesel. 

Carvin had a absolutely solid reputation for customer service built up over years and to destroy that reputation over the course of a couple of years is fucking pathetic.

I hope Jeff's checking this thread. I've had 7 custom carvins that I paid well in excess of $10k for and was planning to buy more in the future until I learnt about the current state of that company.

Driving off loyal legacy customers is terrible business practices.


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 5, 2018)

Floppystrings said:


> *"California's wiretapping law* is a "two-party consent" *law*. *California* makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code § 632."
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=california+wiretap+law&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8



Hey, it's almost like this shit doesn't matter if one party is in new york and that's where the recording is


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## feraledge (Feb 5, 2018)

QuantumCybin said:


> LOL. No one wants your shitty autograph on a guitar, Jeff. Does this dude think he's the next Les Paul or something? Get the fuck out of here, man.


It's entirely possible that he might think he's the first Les Paul.


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## cwhitey2 (Feb 5, 2018)

Floppystrings said:


> *"California's wiretapping law* is a "two-party consent" *law*. *California* makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code § 632."
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=california+wiretap+law&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8




Screw California. #notmystate


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## ArtDecade (Feb 5, 2018)

Jeff K said:


> I am so disgusted, I am selling them all!!!



Look at all of us not lining up for the sale.


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## Jeff K (Feb 6, 2018)

Floppystrings said:


> *"California's wiretapping law* is a "two-party consent" *law*. *California* makes it a crime to record or eavesdrop on any confidential communication, including a private conversation or telephone call, without the consent of all parties to the conversation. See Cal. Penal Code § 632."
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=california+wiretap+law&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


LOL!


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## Floppystrings (Feb 6, 2018)

Jeff K said:


> LOL!



Here is a case reference:

https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit...-law-protects-privacy-in-phone-conversations/

"The answer is yes, according to a California Supreme Court decision in 2006, Kearney v. Salomon Smith Barney. The Court determined that the California two party consent law took precedence over that of Georgia, a one-party state. It was decided that the California two party consent law took precedence because California has an interest in protecting its citizens or residents’ privacy and setting a precedence with Georgia would thereby impair that interest."

Have you talked to a lawyer?


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## Floppystrings (Feb 6, 2018)

Just to clarify, I don't care about Kiesel guitars one bit.

I care more about you getting a $5k fine, and being sued for damages on top of that.


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## will_shred (Feb 6, 2018)

The California supreme court ruled in favor of California... shocker. This seems like the kind of thing that we have the actual supreme court for. 

Totally OT though


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Feb 7, 2018)

You know, I've had an idea for an Aires build ever since the model was released, but I can't get myself to go through with actually ordering it since it would require an option 50 and I've seen way too many horror stories in recent years.

I have a TL60 and DC7X, both Carvin branded that I love to death. No problems with those guitars and they're the reason I'd feel comfortable ordering an Aires if they ever get the neck pocket issues and customer service all straightened out. I just don't like Jeff's attitude or persona on social media 

Right around Christmas, I made the decision to order a bunch of parts for building a Telecaster from Warmoth over the Aires before the base price went up. I haven't gotten the parts yet, but their customer service has already put Warmoth well ahead of Kiesel IMO. My sales guy sent me an email about a week after my order to let me know the fretboard I chose for the neck was flawed and couldn't be used, but he let me pick out any other fretboard and waived any additional upcharge. He was apologetic for the delay and told me my neck would be a priority for them to make up lost time. Top notch customer service there, and as long as my order isn't completely botched, they'll have a lifetime customer in me  I already have a Jazz bass neck from them that I love.

I can only imagine if the same problem came up with a Kiesel order that they would either continue the build with the bad board or change it out without alerting me to the issue in the first place  and of course I'd be the bad guy for pointing out the problem to Kiesel or requesting a refund/return


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 7, 2018)

TheWarAgainstTime said:


> You know, I've had an idea for an Aires build ever since the model was released, but I can't get myself to go through with actually ordering it since it would require an option 50 and I've seen way too many horror stories in recent years.
> 
> I have a TL60 and DC7X, both Carvin branded that I love to death. No problems with those guitars and they're the reason I'd feel comfortable ordering an Aires if they ever get the neck pocket issues and customer service all straightened out. I just don't like Jeff's attitude or persona on social media
> 
> ...


kiesel has prepped neck blanks ready to go so that wouldn't happen most likely. If there's one thing kiesel is good about it's about making sure the customer gets good figured wood on their guitars. Most likely they'd mess up in finish, since they don't know how to color match


----------



## Kwert (Feb 7, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Hey, it's almost like this shit doesn't matter if one party is in new york and that's where the recording is



So I'm not American, so I'm not 100% certain how these things work. That being said, this link seems to indicate that it isn't quite that simple.

https://www.rcfp.org/reporters-recording-guide/interstate-phone-calls

"In light of the differing state laws governing electronic recording of conversations between private parties, journalists are advised to err on the side of caution when recording or disclosing an interstate telephone call. The safest strategy is to assume that the stricter state law will apply.

For example, a reporter located in the District of Columbia who records a telephone conversation without the consent of a party located in Maryland would not violate District of Columbia law, but could be liable under Maryland law. A court located in the District of Columbia may apply Maryland law, depending on its “conflict of laws” rules. Therefore, an aggrieved party may choose to file suit in either jurisdiction, depending on which law is more favorable to the party’s claim.

In one case, a New York trial court was asked to apply the Pennsylvania wiretap law — which requires consent of all parties — to a call placed by a prostitute in Pennsylvania to a man in New York. Unlike the Pennsylvania wiretap statute, the New York and federal statutes require the consent of only one party. The call was recorded with the woman’s consent by reporters for _The Globe_, a national tabloid newspaper. The court ruled that the law of the state where the injury occurred, New York, should apply. _(Krauss v. Globe International)_

The Supreme Court of California in _Kearney v. Salomon Smith Barney_applied California wiretap law to a company located in Georgia that routinely recorded business phone calls with its clients in California. California law requires all party consent to record any telephone calls, while Georgia law requires only one party consent. The state’s high court, applying choice of law principles, reasoned that the failure to apply California law would “impair California’s interest in protecting the degree of privacy afforded to California residents by California law more severely than the application of California law would impair any interests of the State of Georgia.”

In another case involving Pennsylvania law, four employees of _The Times Leader_, a newspaper in Wilkes-Barre, were arrested after they printed a transcript of a telephone conversation between a columnist in Pennsylvania and a murder suspect living in Virginia that was recorded without the suspect’s permission. The Virginia and federal statutes allow one party to record a conversation, while Pennsylvania, as discussed above, requires the consent of all parties. The man asked prosecutors to charge the journalists under the Pennsylvania law. The court eventually dismissed the charges against the newspaper staff — but on the unrelated ground that the suspect had no expectation of privacy during his telephone interview with the columnist. _(Pennsylvania v. Duncan)_

Federal law may apply when the conversation is between parties who are in different states, although it is unsettled whether a court will hold in a given case that federal law “pre-empts” state law. In Duncan, the newspaper argued that the federal law should pre-empt the state statutes, because the telephone call crossed state lines, placing it under federal jurisdiction. However, in that case, the court did not address the pre-emption issue. Moreover, as noted above, either state may choose to enforce its own laws."


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## LeviathanKiller (Aug 20, 2018)

I really need to bookmark this. That way, every time I get tempted by pics of Kiesel guitars, I can go here and slap some sense into myself.


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