# New era for solid state amps



## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

With the recent shortage of tubes, I've been wondering if this could perhaps spur amp companies to get more innovative with solid state amps? I don't know if there's a lot of purists in these companies regarding tubes, but considering the lack of sheer quantity regarding tubes, I think it would be a great time for more companies to start experimenting and manufacturing solid states. There's quite a few in-stock at Sweetwater, but even then, it's still as dry as the in-stock tube amps. Would be cool to see entirely new lines of high-quality, innovative solid states. At this rate, I don't think the investment into them can be any more of a risk than going out of business via lack of tubes. Get creative and go wild, amp companies.

...

Anyway, that's my 2 cents on the tube situation. I don't know enough about amp internals to know whether or not this is a viable solution, but I think a lot of players would be willing to spend money on solid states made by bigger companies (Peavey, Mesa, EVH, etc..) if they go absolutely balls-to-the-wall crazy with their quality and sound, and in general it would just be really cool to see them existing. Dimebag's entire legacy was built on solid states, so I don't think it's that insane of an idea.


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## laxu (Mar 11, 2022)

Solid-state amps already probably outsell tube amps by a significant margin. They just happen to be entry level digital modeling units like your Boss Katanas, Orange Crush and whatnot. Then Fender has come in the higher price scale with their Tonemaster series.

Quilter and BluGuitar amps are probably the only truly high end non-digital fully solid-state or hybrid amps on the market.

JJ still makes tubes in Slovakia so the current situation will only cause more demand for them, probably meaning tubes are going to just be more expensive and harder to get.

I only have one tube amp and I'm pretty much covered for preamp tubes at least.


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 11, 2022)

They just need to bring back solid state amps with transformers like the Peavey XXL. Those SS amps have some warmth and speaker-amp interaction that sounded closer to how OTs in tube amps give you that in the room resonance. 

Or probably do high headroom (minimum 500 watts) poweramps + modeling preamp in one head package that is PRO LEVEL. Sort of a Kemper Toaster Amp but more affordable but still good for pro gigging. 

If BluGuitar makes an amp head with bigger (and warmer sounding) power amp, I'd be all for it.


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## bostjan (Mar 11, 2022)

This is a total guess, but I think a lot of why guitarists are crazy about tube amps is because of two inter-related things a) guitar players tend to resist change unless one of their heroes not only used a piece of gear, but advertised it and b) manufacturers tend to resist change and even when they do change something, are far more likely to alter an existing design than to start from the ground up, spending a lot less money on R&D for new tech.

So, everybody wants a tube amp, because EVH used a tube amp, but also everybody wants a tube screamer, which is essentially a solid state preamp, in front of their tube amp. 

That aside, though, think about all of the players who used Roland JC-120s or Rockman or those old Kustoms. Dimebag seems to polarize people over his tone, but he used solid state heads. ZZ Top used solid state amps, at least live, and there are countless others who kept fairly hush-hush about using the cheaper SS heads. I've used both SS and Tube heads. Cheap SS amps are better than cheap tube amps  and really nice SS amps are just more difficult to come by. But even some of the shit that gets a bad reputation is probably way better than most people in general think - a lot of the perception is due to noob players plugging them in, diming the bass and treble, nuking the mids, diming the gain, and then doing their bad impersonation of EVH playing something that sounds only vaguely like Eruption.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

laxu said:


> Solid-state amps already probably outsell tube amps by a significant margin. They just happen to be entry level digital modeling units like your Boss Katanas, Orange Crush and whatnot. Then Fender has come in the higher price scale with their Tonemaster series.
> 
> Quilter and BluGuitar amps are probably the only truly high end non-digital fully solid-state or hybrid amps on the market.
> 
> JJ still makes tubes in Slovakia so the current situation will only cause more demand for them, probably meaning tubes are going to just be more expensive and harder to get.





MASS DEFECT said:


> Or probably do high headroom (minimum 500 watts) poweramps + modeling preamp in one head package that is PRO LEVEL. Sort of a Kemper Toaster Amp but more affordable but still good for pro gigging.


So would it even matter for other companies to make new high quality solid state amps when Kemper, Axe FXIII, and BluGuitar exist? But at the same time, it looks like the Badlander's one of the only high-gain tube amps selling well right now (not sure about the 5150's, but maybe them as well). The Dual Rectifier is still in production, but none are to be found. Same for various EVH models: nine 5150III 50 watts and four 100 watt's in stock at Sweetwater at the time of typing this out, though the new Iconics are doing well on stock.

It doesn't look like the shortage will end any time soon. Even Marshall's DSL20HR is going out of stock fast, and that's supposedly one of the best entry-level high-gain tube amps. Options are going fast. We can even expect Iconics and Badlanders to run dry eventually.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Both solid states and tube amps are limited in variety right now. It would be cool to see something other than the Kemper toaster, Badlander, and 5150 Iconic, but I suppose it is what it is.


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 11, 2022)

bostjan said:


> This is a total guess, but I think a lot of why guitarists are crazy about tube amps is because of two inter-related things a) guitar players tend to resist change unless one of their heroes not only used a piece of gear, but advertised it and b) manufacturers tend to resist change and even when they do change something, are far more likely to alter an existing design than to start from the ground up, spending a lot less money on R&D for new tech.
> 
> So, everybody wants a tube amp, because EVH used a tube amp, but also everybody wants a tube screamer, which is essentially a solid state preamp, in front of their tube amp.
> 
> That aside, though, think about all of the players who used Roland JC-120s or Rockman or those old Kustoms. Dimebag seems to polarize people over his tone, but he used solid state heads. ZZ Top used solid state amps, at least live, and there are countless others who kept fairly hush-hush about using the cheaper SS heads. I've used both SS and Tube heads. Cheap SS amps are better than cheap tube amps  and really nice SS amps are just more difficult to come by. But even some of the shit that gets a bad reputation is probably way better than most people in general think - a lot of the perception is due to noob players plugging them in, diming the bass and treble, nuking the mids, diming the gain, and then doing their bad impersonation of EVH playing something that sounds only vaguely like Eruption.




^Truth. The last innovative SS Head was the ISP Theta Head. It had all the features and it sounded great. But people are not comfortable with spending a lot of money for SS Heads when during that time, they can buy a 6505 for $500. Completely disregarding the Theta's massive clean headroom, twin ISP decimators and completely independent channels. Then came out the Boss WAZA Amp, which was completely out of the market-price range. 

Guitar players are a superstitious and conservative lot.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

Who needs SS when you have plugins? #jba5150


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## LostTheTone (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Who needs SS when you have plugins? #jba5150



This is effectively the truth. 

Like most complex solid state things, there quickly comes a time where there is no reason not to just implement them in software. There's a very few examples where you need extreme reliability where you'd rather have circuits but there is very little reason not to just push software modelling. It's not even clear what "innovation" in solid state amps would mean when we already have VSTs.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

LostTheTone said:


> This is effectively the truth.
> 
> Like most complex solid state things, there quickly comes a time where there is no reason not to just implement them in software. There's a very few examples where you need extreme reliability where you'd rather have circuits but there is very little reason not to just push software modelling. It's not even clear what "innovation" in solid state amps would mean when we already have VSTs.


yes but aren't high quality solid states considered the best for plugins, or is that a myth?


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## LostTheTone (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> yes but aren't high quality solid states considered the best for plugins, or is that a myth?



Nah.

The amps they make models of are generally the sexy and expensive valve amps. And if you're running a VST then any transparent power section will work fine to get you into a speaker, you don't need anything in particular and you can get plenty of "just a power section" amps that are build for the job without needing to be a head.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

LostTheTone said:


> Nah.
> 
> The amps they make models of are generally the sexy and expensive valve amps. And if you're running a VST then any transparent power section will work fine to get you into a speaker, you don't need anything in particular and you can get plenty of "just a power section" amps that are build for the job without needing to be a head.


sounds cool, i'm really technologically illiterate even when it comes to amps so i appreciate the advice. have been trying to figure out the difference between plugins/solid states/solid states into plugins/modeling amps into plugins etc but couldn't type out the keywords on a search engine to figure it out. So the Axe FX III is basically just a preamp and you plug a power section into it, I assume. So all plugins are basically just preamps for a power section? Seems really useful, I only have a modelling amp rn and have been wanting to upgrade, but all of my optimal tube amp choices are out of stock for now (JP2C, 5150 EL34 100 watt, even the entry-level DSL20HR I've been looking forward to). Something like Axe-FX III looks like it would be great, but maybe I could wait a bit longer for the valve amps to return to stock. Maybe the Iconic will do


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## Tree (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> sounds cool, i'm really technologically illiterate even when it comes to amps so i appreciate the advice. have been trying to figure out the difference between plugins/solid states/solid states into plugins/modeling amps into plugins etc but couldn't type out the keywords on a search engine to figure it out. So the Axe FX III is basically just a preamp and you plug a power section into it, I assume. So all plugins are basically just preamps for a power section? Seems really useful, I only have a modelling amp rn and have been wanting to upgrade, but all of my optimal tube amp choices are out of stock for now (JP2C, 5150 EL34 100 watt, even the entry-level DSL20HR I've been looking forward to). Something like Axe-FX III looks like it would be great, but maybe I could wait a bit longer for the valve amps to return to stock


Are you against going used? 

Also, if you’re wanting to dip your toes in the world of modeling and using a power amp before taking the leap to an Axe III there are plenty of affordable options nowadays.


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## LostTheTone (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> sounds cool, i'm really technologically illiterate even when it comes to amps so i appreciate the advice. have been trying to figure out the difference between plugins/solid states/solid states into plugins/modeling amps into plugins etc but couldn't type out the keywords on a search engine to figure it out. So the Axe FX III is basically just a preamp and you plug a power section into it, I assume. So all plugins are basically just preamps for a power section? Seems really useful, I only have a modelling amp rn and have been wanting to upgrade, but all of my optimal tube amp choices are out of stock for now (JP2C, 5150 EL34 100 watt, even the entry-level DSL20HR I've been looking forward to). Something like Axe-FX III looks like it would be great, but maybe I could wait a bit longer for the valve amps to return to stock



Depends on the plugin whether they model a power section or not - Some do, some don't. The fancy ones I believe do include power amp modelling at least to some degree. Some cab sims (including my little Mooer Radar) has power amp sim built in too, presumably because they predicted cheap people would use them with cheap models. 

Thing is - Either the power amp is a big deal in terms of colouring the sound, or it's not. If it _is_ a big part of the sound, then it's normally included in plugin/model versions because people want to get the classic sound. If it _isn't _a big part of the sound, then you don't need it anyway. Either way, when you spit out the signal from your AxeFx or your PC or whatever, you want the most transparent power amp possible to spit that into the cabinet, because the less that colours the sound the better it will play with anything else.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

Tree said:


> Are you against going used?
> 
> Also, if you’re wanting to dip your toes in the world of modeling and using a power amp before taking the leap to an Axe III there are plenty of affordable options nowadays.


I don't know if I'd trust Reverb or GC online, I've honestly never purchased a used product in my life. I'd be fine with modeling if it meant buying new over used, I'm a bit too fearful. I forgot to mention but the Iconics are also a cheaper option for me, but I haven't checked out their tones yet. Still, I definitely want a high-quality high-gain upgrade (not boss Katana).


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> I don't know if I'd trust Reverb or GC online, I've honestly never purchased a used product in my life. I'd be fine with modeling if it meant buying new over used, I'm a bit too fearful. I forgot to mention but the Iconics are also a cheaper option for me, but I haven't checked out their tones yet. Still, I definitely want a high-quality high-gain upgrade (not boss Katana).


Music stores and reverb means you can actually return what you bought


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Music stores and reverb means you can actually return what you bought


Regardless of whether I buy it physically from a music store or online (I definitely don't trust GC Online, even for new), I'd still rather buy new. Just something not appealing to me about playing a used anything. Only one I'd be interested in is a IIC+ or a Mark IV, otherwise I'll take something new. Don't even have the money for those amps. There's still quite a few options between a 5150 Iconic, 53 Stealth (50 watt), and a cheap plugin. Was gunning for a DSL20HR at first, but none are in-stock right now.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> Regardless of whether I buy it physically from a music store or online (I definitely don't trust GC Online, even for new), I'd still rather buy new. Just something not appealing to me about playing a used anything. Only one I'd be interested in is a IIC+ or a Mark IV, otherwise I'll take something new. Don't even have the money for those amps. There's still quite a few options between a 5150 Iconic, 53 Stealth (50 watt), and a cheap plugin. Was gunning for a DSL20HR at first, but none are in-stock right now.


Some people insist on new and thats entirely your call. Im enjoying my thousands saved to spend on more toys


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Some people insist on new and thats entirely your call. Im enjoying my thousands saved to spend on more toys


it's just that i've never really done it before, habits really stick with you + i'm sorta a germaphobe, combination of those factors. but yeah there's a lot of cool used stuff on Reverb that i really like such as Roadsters/Road Kings, Recto-Verbs, Engl Fireballs etc. and you can't get any of them today so if I ever get more $$$ I'll possibly buy some


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> it's just that i've never really done it before, habits really stick with you + i'm sorta a germaphobe, combination of those factors. but yeah there's a lot of cool used stuff on Reverb that i really like such as Roadsters/Road Kings, Recto-Verbs, Engl Fireballs etc. and you can't get any of them today so if I ever get more $$$ I'll possibly buy some


Then wipe it down when it arrives or isolate it until anything there will have died off


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## c7spheres (Mar 11, 2022)

I'd like to see those Mosfet's make a comeback. I bet if they updated and R&D'd that tech a little more it might possibly beat out tubes over time as the new standard because they just feel and sound more dynamic than solid state and are very tube like in the general aspect, imo.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

c7spheres said:


> I'd like to see those Mosfet's make a comeback. I bet if they updated and R&D'd that tech a little more it might possibly beat out tubes over time as the new standard because they just feel and sound more dynamic than solid state and are very tube like in the general aspect, imo.


Except a lot of new players today plug into their 2i2 and run a plugin via a DAW or standalone. Isnt guitar based music on the decline again, big picture? Im curious to see what happens when that swings back the other way. 

We also need to remember that guitarists in general is a pretty small group.


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## ATRguitar91 (Mar 11, 2022)

I've been on the solid state bandwagon for several years now. Can sound just as good as tubes and sound good at any volume with zero reliability problems.

James Brown really is the man on this, and it would be cool to see him design a new fully solid state amp for EVH. The Tight Metal Pro feels indistinguishable to a tube amp to me.

It seems inevitable that tubes are eventually so scarce that companies either give up on them or manufacture their own. It seems like it'd be hard to justify the economics at that point.

It's possible that everything just ends up a digital preamp attached to a solid state power amp like the Fender Tonemaster amps, but I'd really like to see a new generation of full solid state amps. I think there would be a market for people who want real amps and don't want any digital elements to deal with.


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## LostTheTone (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Except a lot of new players today plug into their 2i2 and run a plugin via a DAW or standalone. Isnt guitar based music on the decline again, big picture? Im curious to see what happens when that swings back the other way.
> 
> We also need to remember that guitarists in general is a pretty small group.



I'd agree with all that.

Modeling, especially via PC, is so damn cheap and sounds so damn good. A 2i2 and a copy of Archetype: Gojira will set you back like 200 combined, and then you'll sound awesome through headphones or jamming via small speakers. You need more kit to play turned up real loud, but most guitar players need to be sociable human beings most of the time.

Sometimes its hard to guess just how big the total market is, or how much it matters. It is a big enough market that there a lot of complex technical work put into stuff like modelling. Part of that is because modelling is a way easier market to get in to, since you don't need to manufacture anything. 

I think that's a virtuous cycle with regards to equipment though. Modelling is cheap and easy to use, and sounds great (compared to equally priced real amps). And because its cheap and easy to use, people use it. And then developers invest in it because people are actually using it, and its a lot easier to get someone to drop 100 on a new VST than 2k on a big heavy new physical amp. 

I don't think that physical hardware is dead by any means, but there isn't much exciting stuff going on there. At this point physical gear is super mature and very saturated at every price point. I could honestly go my whole life just using existing physical amps. VSTs have more space to innovate atm (hence the rise of "not quite a real amp" setups like Archetypes) and more scope to try them out.


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## bostjan (Mar 11, 2022)

Forget DAWs and plugins... with a physical modeler, you can bring a head that weighs 16 lbs and plug it straight into the board, and, not only will it sound pretty great, but the sound man will make you sound even better out front.

Same thing with bass, keyboard, whatever. The only person in the band left in the bronze age is the drummer, who has to lug a quarter ton of hardware to the gig, only to trigger everything through a laptop that might shit the bed in the middle of a show.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Except a lot of new players today plug into their 2i2 and run a plugin via a DAW or standalone. Isnt guitar based music on the decline again, big picture? Im curious to see what happens when that swings back the other way.
> 
> We also need to remember that guitarists in general is a pretty small group.





LostTheTone said:


> I'd agree with all that.


Trying to find stuff for live use though. Was thinking a DSL20HR (mic'd up ofc) and maybe an Avatar cabinet (2x12 or 1x12 for live?). Then perhaps a cheap TS9 or Maxon OD9, latter only if I want to splurge. Just wanna play punk and metal at some small clubs with friends but sound really good as well. Any alternatives that might be cheaper than this setup? Cabinet is really important, but I'm wondering about the preamp and power section

edit: someone mentioned Tight Metal Pro II amp and that looks interesting, it's cheaper than the DSL20HR too


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## op1e (Mar 11, 2022)

There actually is a pretty good market for the $500-ish SS amp. Every other band I know uses that Crush cause they're afraid of tubes and have had cheap B52's and the like break down on them. That and they' don't have a lot of money and haven't figured out Zzounds and AMS yet lol.
It's just none of them have a damn resonance knob dammit. I spent a lot of time diving down this rabbit hole looking into Quilter and all that to power my HX Stomp or one of my other preamps. A JFET preamp with a Mosfet power amp with a Pres/Res would sell.


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## Giest (Mar 11, 2022)

What's this toob shortage? I just bought two sets of matched quad power tubes and about eight to ten random preamp tubes. Didn't have any trouble finding them except a Gold Lion matched quad KT88 I had to go to another shop for. Genelex, Tung-Sol, Sovtek, Mullard, RCA, Mesa, most of the JJ tubes were all in stock. I think I _was_ looking for a JJ gold pin 12AX7 and couldn't find it, which is fine because I don't like JJ preamp tubes and it would have been more of a cursory measure in the process of tone chasing.


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

Using my vague recollection of D’addario? Saying something like 5% of the world plays guitar. Maybe it was Fender?

Bueller?


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> Trying to find stuff for live use though. Was thinking a DSL20HR (mic'd up ofc) and maybe an Avatar cabinet (2x12 or 1x12 for live?). Then perhaps a cheap TS9 or Maxon OD9, latter only if I want to splurge. Just wanna play punk and metal at some small clubs with friends but sound really good as well. Any alternatives that might be cheaper than this setup? Cabinet is really important, but I'm wondering about the preamp and power section
> 
> edit: someone mentioned Tight Metal Pro II amp and that looks interesting, it's cheaper than the DSL20HR too


Buy a 5150 212 combo and a dolly. Done. 

Pretty sure i posted jba5150 in my first reply too.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Buy a 5150 212 combo and a dolly. Done.
> 
> Pretty sure i posted jba5150 in my first reply too.


 dude i completely forgot about combos. but i think the reason i forgot is because I was going to focus on the long-term. Might've been better to have a separate cab (I really like V30's) + a head so I can slowly upgrade rather than upgrade in one huge burst. 5150 combo seems to be relatively _near_ the price range (there's some cheaper used, $750-ish) too but still unsure. wondering if my brutal Peavey Vypyr would just be the best bet, I wouldn't have to pay for anything - but it has that woofy bass speaker. Mic'd up it would sound alright though? consensus?


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## Grindspine (Mar 11, 2022)

I <3 my all tube Mesa guitar amps, but I also <3 my class D solid state DarkGlass bass amp.

As mentioned above, Quilter makes pretty high quality solid state guitar amps. It is important to note that they really keep in mind the difference in usable headroom in their amps vs the same wattage in tube amps. 

To put it simply, a solid state 120 watt amp has significantly less usable volume than a tube amp due to reasons. (insert explanations of linearity, even vs odd order harmonics, etc.)


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> dude i completely forgot about combos. but i think the reason i forgot is because I was going to focus on the long-term. Might've been better to have a separate cab (I really like V30's) + a head so I can slowly upgrade rather than upgrade in one huge burst. 5150 combo seems to be relatively _near_ the price range (there's some cheaper used, $750-ish) too but still unsure. wondering if my brutal Peavey Vypyr would just be the best bet, I wouldn't have to pay for anything - but it has that woofy bass speaker. Mic'd up it would sound alright though? consensus?


If the bass is woofy, turn the bass down lol.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> If the bass is woofy, turn the bass down lol.


no i mean it's literally a bass speaker, but yeah i can probably turn the bass down and up mids. either way I think I'll save up a bit more to wait and see. the combo you mentioned might work, but i can get an Avatar 2x12 with V30's for $510 + a head for around the same price as the combo. TS9 for around ~$100 as well. makes upgrading a lot easier. Vypyr might honestly be good enough, but i have a bit to spend so why not


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## budda (Mar 11, 2022)

You need to go try some stuff out. Thats the fun part.


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## wakjob (Mar 11, 2022)

kamisama said:


> no i mean it's literally a bass speaker, but yeah i can probably turn the bass down and up mids. either way I think I'll save up a bit more to wait and see. the combo you mentioned might work, but i can get an Avatar 2x12 with V30's for $510 + a head for around the same price as the combo. TS9 for around ~$100 as well. makes upgrading a lot easier. Vypyr might honestly be good enough, but i have a bit to spend so why not



Good times to save so money... either do a speaker swap in the Vypyr, or grab a standard output jack and run it into a nice 4x12 ect....

That's what I did with mine. I ran it into a Peavey Penta cab that had WGS ET65's and Green Beret's in an X-pattern. Sounded fantastic!


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## Protestheriphery (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> Who needs SS when you have plugins? #jba5150


That was the first thought that crossed my mind when I clicked the thread. I guess the one advantage of rocking ss hardware is in a live scenario. It's more plug and play, and less menu surfing.


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## wheresthefbomb (Mar 11, 2022)

If anything it seems that SS amp innovation has tapered off since its inception. In the 70s-90s there were lots of hybrid or full SS units that were well-designed to take advantage of the unique characteristics of SS amplification. All but the earliest Music Man amps used SS pre sections and was seen by the builders as an upgrade in functionality/reliability, to the point that when older models with tube pre/PI came in for warranty work it was standard to upgrade the pre to SS.

Orange is changing this a bit which I think is great, would like to see more companies try to make quality SS units instead of crappy no-headroom-having noob-bait. My exwife had one of those stupid SS fender half stacks and it was nothing but a disappointment. Felt bad even selling it (but not bad enough not to take the $300).

JC-120, Lab Series, SUNN Beta, Coliseum etc, Peavey Century, Standard, Stereo Chorus 400 etc. Nobody is making amps like this anymore. Maybe there's a reason for that but I'd take any of these over most modern SS offerings.

Also, Class D power is not as desirable for players who routinely push their amps really hard (unless something has changed recently). They tend to shut themselves down under this kind of use.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 11, 2022)

c7spheres said:


> I'd like to see those Mosfet's make a comeback. I bet if they updated and R&D'd that tech a little more it might possibly beat out tubes over time as the new standard because they just feel and sound more dynamic than solid state and are very tube like in the general aspect, imo.


AMT, as well as other guys that make amp-in-a-box pedals show how great FET-based circuitry can sound. Thomas Blug also showed you can make a killer as hell sounding hybrid amp just by using a single nanotube.


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## kamisama (Mar 11, 2022)

budda said:


> You need to go try some stuff out. Thats the fun part.


definitely will, there's a bunch of stores nearby


Protestheriphery said:


> That was the first thought that crossed my mind when I clicked the thread. I guess the one advantage of rocking ss hardware is in a live scenario. It's more plug and play, and less menu surfing.


I did mostly mean in live scenarios. You can do pretty much anything in with Axe FX in studio settings. But to be fair, I don't know how useful plugins are live. Someone above mentioned a physical modeler, which also seems like an interesting option. I find solid states to be a super simple solution, plug and play like you've said.


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## Soya (Mar 11, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Forget DAWs and plugins... with a physical modeler, you can bring a head that weighs 16 lbs and plug it straight into the board, and, not only will it sound pretty great, but the sound man will make you sound even better out front.
> 
> Same thing with bass, keyboard, whatever. The only person in the band left in the bronze age is the drummer, who has to lug a quarter ton of hardware to the gig, only to trigger everything through a laptop that might shit the bed in the middle of a show.


No kidding, drums suck and I really wish I had picked a different main instrument 20 years ago. I keep waffling over selling the acoustic set and going all Roland but I feel like I'd be looked down upon heh.


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## youngthrasher9 (Mar 11, 2022)

Having owned the ISP Theta head, people just could not get into for the original retail price, and while I understand, it’s a shame that it never caught on. It was one of the best sounding amps I’ve ever owned, and it could have been huge with the metal community. They chose to over design and build it to be nearly indestructible, made in the USA and I think that’s what made it so damn expensive. It had bells and whistles for days on top of all that. I think I paid $500 for mine on guitar centers used web site when I had it. I should have never got rid of it.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 11, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> Having owned the ISP Theta head, people just could not get into for the original retail price, and while I understand, it’s a shame that it never caught on. It was one of the best sounding amps I’ve ever owned, and it could have been huge with the metal community. They chose to over design and build it to be nearly indestructible, made in the USA and I think that’s what made it so damn expensive. It had bells and whistles for days on top of all that. I think I paid $500 for mine on guitar centers used web site when I had it. I should have never got rid of it.


Stop hyping them up. I still need to buy one before the prices for them skyrocket.


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## gunch (Mar 11, 2022)

Dude I'd fuck with the combo Theta


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## youngthrasher9 (Mar 11, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Stop hyping them up. I still need to buy one before the prices for them skyrocket.


If you could find one  

I look for them from time to time and I haven’t seen one for sale since 2019…


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 12, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> If you could find one
> 
> I look for them from time to time and I haven’t seen one for sale since 2019…


There was one for sale last year and i was so close to buying it, but i had to pass on it. Still regret it


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## IwantTacos (Mar 12, 2022)

Every decent venue already has a better and more expensive solid state amp then most people can afford. Just slap a modeler into that and gtg. 

I’m super into tubes but the writing is on the wall.


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 12, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> Having owned the ISP Theta head, people just could not get into for the original retail price, and while I understand, it’s a shame that it never caught on. It was one of the best sounding amps I’ve ever owned, and it could have been huge with the metal community. They chose to over design and build it to be nearly indestructible, made in the USA and I think that’s what made it so damn expensive. It had bells and whistles for days on top of all that. I think I paid $500 for mine on guitar centers used web site when I had it. I should have never got rid of it.



It just sucks that it has speaker outs that halves power if you output at 8ohms or 16ohms. 

Some SS amps do output the same amount of power no matter which cab you use. (Xxl, Amp1...) , for the price of the Theta head, I hoped it had that kind of ability.


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## laxu (Mar 12, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> If anything it seems that SS amp innovation has tapered off since its inception. In the 70s-90s there were lots of hybrid or full SS units that were well-designed to take advantage of the unique characteristics of SS amplification. All but the earliest Music Man amps used SS pre sections and was seen by the builders as an upgrade in functionality/reliability, to the point that when older models with tube pre/PI came in for warranty work it was standard to upgrade the pre to SS.
> 
> Orange is changing this a bit which I think is great, would like to see more companies try to make quality SS units instead of crappy no-headroom-having noob-bait. My exwife had one of those stupid SS fender half stacks and it was nothing but a disappointment. Felt bad even selling it (but not bad enough not to take the $300).
> 
> ...


Solid-state got a bad rap early on and then that continued further in all the cheap beginner amps on the market. When most people's first amp was some shitty Crate combo like I had, then it's no wonder that people flock to a tube amp as their first "real" amp. Even digital modeling has had to claw its way to being an accepted option. I think people are more accepting of both analog solid-state and digital modeling nowadays than say 5-10 years ago.

Class D allows for very compact designs but some of them tend to be too clean and sterile sounding. It's going to come down to individual poweramp implementations. I can and have cranked my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME and it got extremely loud and had no trouble staying like that while sounding like a cranked tube poweramp. Likewise most bass amp nowadays are high power Class D units and those are not shutting down. Even the guitar oriented ones are nowadays high power enough that you are unlikely to tap them out.


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## ATRguitar91 (Mar 12, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Stop hyping them up. I still need to buy one before the prices for them skyrocket.


After talking about it yesterday, I moved my Theta preamp from the living room rig to my main rig in the basement, and man does it sound good.

Just an incredibly useful pedal with the built in Decimator and boost. When I wasn't using the preamp side, I had the preamp boosting my other preamps or the Stomp. With the active EQ you can get some crazy tones out of the boost portion alone. 

It takes the right design, but solid state can absolutely sound as good as tubes.


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## youngthrasher9 (Mar 12, 2022)

gunch said:


> Dude I'd fuck with the combo Theta


IIRC @Bearitone had one. I wonder often how it sounded in that enclosure. I think it was ported.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 12, 2022)

Requesting a mod to delete this thread so the Theta can continue to be sleeper gear. Thanks.


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## wheresthefbomb (Mar 12, 2022)

laxu said:


> Solid-state got a bad rap early on and then that continued further in all the cheap beginner amps on the market. When most people's first amp was some shitty Crate combo like I had, then it's no wonder that people flock to a tube amp as their first "real" amp. Even digital modeling has had to claw its way to being an accepted option. I think people are more accepting of both analog solid-state and digital modeling nowadays than say 5-10 years ago.
> 
> Class D allows for very compact designs but some of them tend to be too clean and sterile sounding. It's going to come down to individual poweramp implementations. I can and have cranked my BluGuitar Amp 1 ME and it got extremely loud and had no trouble staying like that while sounding like a cranked tube poweramp. Likewise most bass amp nowadays are high power Class D units and those are not shutting down. Even the guitar oriented ones are nowadays high power enough that you are unlikely to tap them out.



Thanks for clearing that up. I had a feeling my information was out of date.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 12, 2022)

Since we're talking about it, and as someone that isn't super smart with power amp design... For the longest time, I always thought Matrix power amps were Class D. 800 - 1000W power amps that weigh 8 pounds. 

But nope, they're class A/B. Any clue how they were able to do that? Make a 1000w Class AB power amp that weighs half of a 300W class AB Rocktron Velocity or 3x less than a Mosvalve 500?


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## bostjan (Mar 12, 2022)

Class A or AB or D depends on how the waveform is amplified. You could make a class A amp weigh a quarter pound. A lot of the weight is from the impedence matching transformers and power supply. If you can make an efficient power supply and design a circuit that already matches speaker impedence, you can make a super light amp. Class D is really good for low frequencies and horribly inefficient or otherwise useless for high frequencies.

Side topic... anyone ever heard of Skincabs? Their 412 weighs under 40 lbs.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 12, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Class A or AB or D depends on how the waveform is amplified. You could make a class A amp weigh a quarter pound. A lot of the weight is from the impedence matching transformers and power supply. If you can make an efficient power supply and design a circuit that already matches speaker impedence, you can make a super light amp. Class D is really good for low frequencies and horribly inefficient or otherwise useless for high frequencies.
> 
> Side topic... anyone ever heard of Skincabs? Their 412 weighs under 40 lbs.


I think I get it. So they basically found a way to use (relatively) old-school tech but managed to make it super duper fucking efficient? Pretty cool.


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## Thaeon (Mar 12, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> ^Truth. The last innovative SS Head was the ISP Theta Head. It had all the features and it sounded great. But people are not comfortable with spending a lot of money for SS Heads when during that time, they can buy a 6505 for $500. Completely disregarding the Theta's massive clean headroom, twin ISP decimators and completely independent channels. Then came out the Boss WAZA Amp, which was completely out of the market-price range.
> 
> Guitar players are a superstitious and conservative lot.



I own a Waza 150, and I'm very happy with it. Sounds great. Not QUITE just like a tube amp, but in a mix, you can't tell.



ATRguitar91 said:


> I've been on the solid state bandwagon for several years now. Can sound just as good as tubes and sound good at any volume with zero reliability problems.
> 
> James Brown really is the man on this, and it would be cool to see him design a new fully solid state amp for EVH. The Tight Metal Pro feels indistinguishable to a tube amp to me.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I came from owning a Diezel to going solid state last year. As much as I love Diezels, I can get 90% there with a solid state amp that weighs less than half of it. The Waza head is no joke.



HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> AMT, as well as other guys that make amp-in-a-box pedals show how great FET-based circuitry can sound. Thomas Blug also showed you can make a killer as hell sounding hybrid amp just by using a single nanotube.



The AMT Stonehead is probably going to be my next amp. $800, four channels, 100 watts. Sounds amazing. And I can run that direct to PA or into a cab or both, just like my Waza head.

With modelers and software being what they are, and solid state options out there that actually do rival the tube world, the writing really is on the wall. Tubes are old tech, and they're on the way out. Outside of collectors and studios, I don't think they have all that much use anymore. Its dirty technology too. HORRIBLE for the environment. I don't have to worry about frying tubes and my amp going down or needing to be recapped. Cost of ownership long term just makes them better and better options. Shit, most of us use a solid state boost in front and digital FX to boot and buffers everywhere. Couple all this with all the videos coming out disproving the importance of tubes in tone and wood in solid body electrics... Lets just all give up the ghost and move on. Progress to newer sounds and more efficient methods to make them.


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## AMOS (Mar 12, 2022)

I hope it spawns a Tube manufacturing company in the U.S.


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## Thorsday7 (Mar 12, 2022)

Those old Mosvalve power amps were pretty darn good.


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## Thaeon (Mar 12, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I hope it spawns a Tube manufacturing company in the U.S.



It won’t. Prices would be too high because American workers make so much. Aside from having to buy or build The machinery needed to make them. Land area is expensive here too. It’s a niche market. There wouldn’t be enough product sold to justify it. If it were going to happen EHX wouldn’t have bought the reflektor plant and left it where it’s at. They’d have moved everything here.


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## Meeotch (Mar 12, 2022)

I owned a Theta Combo. It sounded good, even great, but I enjoy my tube amps more overall. I will say the cleans on the Theta beat anything I've played to date. Cool amp for sure and I'd love to see more time/money put into creating more high end SS amps.


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## AMOS (Mar 12, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> It won’t. Prices would be too high because American workers make so much. Aside from having to buy or build The machinery needed to make them. Land area is expensive here too. It’s a niche market. There wouldn’t be enough product sold to justify it. If it were going to happen EHX wouldn’t have bought the reflektor plant and left it where it’s at. They’d have moved everything here.


I have no idea where Black Sable tubes are made but some players use them, some of them are around the $125 mark.


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## Thaeon (Mar 12, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I have no idea where Black Sable tubes are made but some players use them, some of them are around the $125 mark.



Black Sables are a Tube Depot rebrand of other manufacturers tubes that have been frozen and then brought back to room temp and burned in. So they don’t manufacture anything. They just test it well, and have a process that may or may not make them any better. I don’t know of any science supporting their process.


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## trem licking (Mar 13, 2022)

_Has anyone ever made a handwired solid state amp? Possible?_


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## laxu (Mar 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Since we're talking about it, and as someone that isn't super smart with power amp design... For the longest time, I always thought Matrix power amps were Class D. 800 - 1000W power amps that weigh 8 pounds.
> 
> But nope, they're class A/B. Any clue how they were able to do that? Make a 1000w Class AB power amp that weighs half of a 300W class AB Rocktron Velocity or 3x less than a Mosvalve 500?


Specs tell the truth. Matrix XT-800:

Watts (rms) per channel, 16R:125
Watts (rms) per channel, 8R:250
Watts (rms) per channel, 4R:400
Watts (rms) Bridge Mode, 16R:400
Watts (rms) Bridge Mode, 8R:800

So it's only 800W if you are running it mono in bridge mode into an 8 ohm load.

There's also probably a few decades worth of component and manufacturing improvements to account for between when the Rocktron and Mosvalve units were released.


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## laxu (Mar 13, 2022)

trem licking said:


> _Has anyone ever made a handwired solid state amp? Possible?_


The main issue with this is that solid-state amps rely on operation amplifiers etc which are more sensible to wire to a socket mounted on a PCB. There is no technical issue for handwiring a solid-state amp this but also no real benefit to making a handwired solid state amp except as a DIY project where you can't manufacture a PCB.

There is simply no market for a handwired solid-state amp. There is for tube amps because it's part of that "how it was done back in the good old days" type appeal.


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## trem licking (Mar 13, 2022)

laxu said:


> The main issue with this is that solid-state amps rely on operation amplifiers etc which are more sensible to wire to a socket mounted on a PCB. There is no technical issue for handwiring a solid-state amp this but also no real benefit to making a handwired solid state amp except as a DIY project where you can't manufacture a PCB.
> 
> There is simply no market for a handwired solid-state amp. There is for tube amps because it's part of that "how it was done back in the good old days" type appeal.


Just curious if that was ever a thing. If digital/solid state amps are just as repairable as tube amps by general repair personel, i see no issue with getting rid of tubes. Only problem with the non tube stuff is it seems to be viewed more as disposable by people, or non fixable


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## laxu (Mar 13, 2022)

trem licking said:


> Just curious if that was ever a thing. If digital/solid state amps are just as repairable as tube amps by general repair personel, i see no issue with getting rid of tubes. Only problem with the non tube stuff is it seems to be viewed more as disposable by people, or non fixable


Many solid-state and digital amps use the increasingly more common tiny surface mount components which are much harder to replace with traditional soldering techniques. Likewise replacing a DSP chip and being able to program it is pretty much right out. But those are usually not the components that fail in the first place but things like pots, capacitors or jacks. Those are more replacable.

There's still 20 year old Line6 PODs that work just fine so I'm not too worried about this sort of stuff.


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## Thaeon (Mar 13, 2022)

laxu said:


> Many solid-state and digital amps use the increasingly more common tiny surface mount components which are much harder to replace with traditional soldering techniques. Likewise replacing a DSP chip and being able to program it is pretty much right out. But those are usually not the components that fail in the first place but things like pots, capacitors or jacks. Those are more replacable.
> 
> There's still 20 year old Line6 PODs that work just fine so I'm not too worried about this sort of stuff.



Barring poor heat dissipation from the sensitive parts of a solid state amp, it should be able to run without any big issues indefinitely. Heat is the enemy of electronics. Most modern computers fail because of heat, or an SSD it’s outlived it’s read/write cycles since there are a finite amount. Amps don’t have that issue and most of the components generating heat are separated from the board. Better tech and manufacturing processes are responsible for the miniaturization of components. Some home computers have 1000 or 2000 watt power supplies. Those supplies and transformers don’t have to weigh much if there’s no cases of need to switch resistance and deliver the same power. Probably why the Matrix systems are so light.


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## SCJR (Mar 13, 2022)

MASS DEFECT said:


> ^Truth. The last innovative SS Head was the ISP Theta Head. It had all the features and it sounded great. But people are not comfortable with spending a lot of money for SS Heads when during that time, they can buy a 6505 for $500. Completely disregarding the Theta's massive clean headroom, twin ISP decimators and completely independent channels. Then came out the Boss WAZA Amp, which was completely out of the market-price range.
> 
> Guitar players are a superstitious and conservative lot.



Was just about to bring up ISP. I used the Stealth for a while and almost rounded everything out with the Theta but ultimately opted for a Fractal unit.


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## Bearitone (Mar 13, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> IIRC @Bearitone had one. I wonder often how it sounded in that enclosure. I think it was ported.


That thing ripped! For gigging or bedroom jamming, its amazing.
Downsides:
-You can't connect anything but the proprietary extension cab
-The dedicated sub with a crossover for the low frequencies might be tricky to mic.
-The built in reverb is pretty lack luster

Upsides:
-The clean channel is easily the best I've ever heard
-The built in ISP Decimator works like a charm
-You don't need to boost it for it to sound great but, it takes a boost really well
-Sounds like a better version of a Mesa Recto in my opinion
-Sweepable mids!


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## Emperoff (Mar 13, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Tubes are old tech, and they're on the way out. Outside of collectors and studios, I don't think they have all that much use anymore.



Lmao. I've been hearing that line for the last fifteen years


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## sevenfoxes (Mar 13, 2022)

I honestly don’t give a rat’s ass if it’s tube or SS. If the amp sounds good, the amp sounds good.

Unfortunately, I’ve yet to find any SS amps that have the same tone as some of my favorite tube amps.

It’s also kinda funny how a lot of SS amps look to tube amps for tonal characteristics.


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## sevenfoxes (Mar 13, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Lmao. I've been hearing that line for the last fifteen years


Yup. It’s old speculation that never really manifested.


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## Gudbrand (Mar 13, 2022)

Bearitone said:


> That thing ripped! For gigging or bedroom jamming, its amazing.
> Downsides:
> -You can't connect anything but the proprietary extension cab
> -The dedicated sub with a crossover for the low frequencies might be tricky to mic.
> ...



It does indeed rip. The only other downside is the weight.

I would love to find a head. There was one for sale on eBay a couple years ago that I passed on before realizing how rare they are.


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## Shask (Mar 13, 2022)

HeHasTheJazzHands said:


> Since we're talking about it, and as someone that isn't super smart with power amp design... For the longest time, I always thought Matrix power amps were Class D. 800 - 1000W power amps that weigh 8 pounds.
> 
> But nope, they're class A/B. Any clue how they were able to do that? Make a 1000w Class AB power amp that weighs half of a 300W class AB Rocktron Velocity or 3x less than a Mosvalve 500?


I think the whole key is when people can figure out how to get the impedance reaction between the power amp and the speakers like tubes do. That seems to be the one thing that digital and SS analog can't seem to completely replicate, and it effects the feel of the low end so much.

If I remember right, I think the Matrix is Class AB MOSFET technology just like the MOSValve was. Just, more modern and up to date.


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## c7spheres (Mar 13, 2022)

It's just as simple as this, lol. Dr D says so.


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## will_shred (Mar 13, 2022)

I am a tube snob but was very impressed with the vox MVX150. Totally didn't expect a solid state vox head to produce ripping modern high gain tones. I think it flew under the radar for a lot of us because, well, it's vox.

The Boss Katana is obviously awesome too 

I'm sure there will be more to come.


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## c7spheres (Mar 13, 2022)

will_shred said:


> I am a tube snob but was very impressed with the vox MVX150. Totally didn't expect a solid state vox head to produce ripping modern high gain tones.


I had a buddy who use to run a VoxToneLab Valvetronix board into a pair of solid state fender 1x15 bass amps and it was every bit as good as tube from a listener pov, however he was dialing it in it was good. He was using a Strat with noiseless pickups in it too but I think it really comes down to if it's pumping and breaking up how you want and sounds good then it's a win.
Another amp that was great for solid state and cheap was the old Pyramid Pa amps. They're class a/b , cheap and sounded great, but were surpriingly dynamic and responsive much like tubes without the power tube distortion. Much more so than the Mackie and JBL a/b models I Itried. I tried and hoped for a long time to replace tube power amps to save cash, weight and servicing hassels but always came back to my tube power. That last 5-10% is worth all theextra ime money and hassel but I'd be all over a SS amp that satisfies me just as much. MIght pickup another one just to save tube liife for practice time.


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## will_shred (Mar 14, 2022)

trem licking said:


> _Has anyone ever made a handwired solid state amp? Possible?_




yes its possible. not that it matters if its hand made or not. You could hand make a Marshall MG10 clone fairly easily, not that anyone would want to.


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## Estilo (Mar 14, 2022)

Has anyone got hold of the Orange Super Crush? From what I've heard the Crush Pro sounded too 'thin' and earlier demos of the SC weren't too different.


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## Bearitone (Mar 14, 2022)

Estilo said:


> Has anyone got hold of the Orange Super Crush? From what I've heard the Crush Pro sounded too 'thin' and earlier demos of the SC weren't too different.


I tried one in store and was impressed. Way better than the original Crush Pro. The best all around head I’ve heard in that price range. Pretty flexible and a great built in reverb too. As long as you’re okay with your high gain tones having that “orange” flavor in the mids, it’s great.


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

sevenfoxes said:


> It’s also kinda funny how a lot of SS amps look to tube amps for tonal characteristics.


That's probably more about catering to the folks buying them. You can sell a bassist an amp that has things like parameteric mids but somehow guitarists will balk at anything that doesn't sound like what they have heard on some old record or if it is more complex than a treble-middle-bass tone stack.



Shask said:


> I think the whole key is when people can figure out how to get the impedance reaction between the power amp and the speakers like tubes do. That seems to be the one thing that digital and SS analog can't seem to completely replicate, and it effects the feel of the low end so much.
> 
> If I remember right, I think the Matrix is Class AB MOSFET technology just like the MOSValve was. Just, more modern and up to date.


The BluGuitar Amp 1 stuff is the only things I've used that have been truly able to do it and they use a subminiature tube for it. Basically solid-state preamp -> subminiature tube used in the poweramp circuit -> Class D poweramp to make it loud. Feels and behaves like a classic Marshall type amp.

With digital modelers things get more tricky as technically you would want the modeling to do all that and in my experience all the top tier units do. But then what you hook up to them if running into a poweramp gets complicated. I have found e.g. my Fryette Power Station to sound really good and the BluGuitar works well too but both will require taming down the impedance curve effect so a more neutral solid-state amp might be better but nobody can quite figure out what would give the best results.

I've never tried the Matrix stuff but reading Fractal forums there's people who have had difficulty matching their tube amps using the Matrix stuff but when running the Fractal preamps to the fx return of those same tube amps it's spot on. So I guess even with Axe-Fx level modeling there's still something with the poweramp that does not do the job. Of course there are others who are perfectly happy with them.


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## trem licking (Mar 14, 2022)

will_shred said:


> yes its possible. not that it matters if its hand made or not. You could hand make a Marshall MG10 clone fairly easily, not that anyone would want to.


It's not so much pcb vs handwired, it's repairability by general amp techs. We want 2022 solid state amps to be available and repairable in 2032, don't we? Peeps love vintage shit, so it has to stay working with maintenance. No computer stuff lasts forever. On this topic, let's make some solid state conversion tubes to stick into tube sockets once the tube factories go belly up


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

trem licking said:


> It's not so much pcb vs handwired, it's repairability by general amp techs. We want 2022 solid state amps to be available and repairable in 2032, don't we? Peeps love vintage shit, so it has to stay working with maintenance. No computer stuff lasts forever. On this topic, let's make some solid state conversion tubes to stick into tube sockets once the tube factories go belly up


AMT already makes a 12AX7 solid-state drop in replacement "tube". No idea how well it works in practice.

Repairability going forward will be harder anyway because full size components are becoming less and less common with the majority of electronics going all in on SMD. While SMD components can be swapped, because they are tiny it requires different techniques to both desolder and resolder a new component in.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

I have an AMT SS tube around. I feel the need to remind everyone those were 40$, so quite expensive to become a standard. It sounds dryier, tighter and gainer than regular tubes. In other words, it sounds like SS. They don't go microphonic or wear out (at least not as fast as a tube, which still can last thousands of hours).

Now, speaking from ignorance of what is really cooking inside those SS tubes... What is the point of them? Considering AMT approach to tubes, I suspect it's just two high voltage JFETs acting as two separate triodes just like regular tubes, but we all know that can be implemented into an amp or pedal PCB without the need of a tube socket or tube-looking bottle.

From my perspective as a tube seller, SS tubes only make sense as a replacement for those who have a tube amp, but want to get rid of the disadvantages of conventional tubes (microphonics, reliability, etc). It also gets rid of the tube sound, feel and response, so at that point why not just buy a SS amp?


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## Zado (Mar 14, 2022)

AMOS said:


> I hope it spawns a Tube manufacturing company in the U.S.


There's already. Hifi target. Not cheap


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> I have an AMT SS tube around. I feel the need to remind everyone those were 40$, so quite expensive to become a standard. It sounds dryier, tighter and gainer than regular tubes. In other words, it sounds like SS. They don't go microphonic or wear out (at least not as fast as a tube, which still can last thousands of hours).
> 
> Now, speaking from ignorance of what is really cooking inside those SS tubes... What is the point of them? Considering AMT approach to tubes, I suspect it's just two high voltage JFETs acting as two separate triodes just like regular tubes, but we all know that can be implemented into an amp or pedal PCB without the need of a tube socket or tube-looking bottle.
> 
> From my perspective as a tube seller, SS tubes only make sense as a replacement for those who have a tube amp, but want to get rid of the disadvantages of conventional tubes (microphonics, reliability, etc). It also gets rid of the tube sound, feel and response, so at that point why not just buy a SS amp?


I could see the appeal of "buy once, keep almost forever" solid-state tubes...provided they could deliver similar performance when plugged into a standard tube amp circuit. Seems the tech is not quite there yet and the only real usecase would be to be able to use a favorite tube amp but getting tubes has become difficult.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> I could see the appeal of "buy once, keep almost forever" solid-state tubes...provided they could deliver similar performance when plugged into a standard tube amp circuit. Seems the tech is not quite there yet and the only real usecase would be to be able to use a favorite tube amp but getting tubes has become difficult.



NOS preamp tubes already fall into that category, TBH. Most of them are rated between 6-10k hours. I've got some >50 year old tubes in my amps still running strong. They are not immune to microphonics, though.

Now that you say that, I just read this:









Knowing Reflektor plant is located in Russia, I knew this was bound to happen. Some manufacturers will have to switch to JJ and Shuguang for their stock tubes, and those factories will have to ramp up the production to keep up with the demand (which I'm not sure are capable of). So war could really take a toll on tube amps more than modellers have in the last decades.


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## Zado (Mar 14, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Some manufacturers will have to switch to JJ and Shuguang for their stock tubes,


Shuguang has to open back tho. And I'm not seeing that in a close future, honestly


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Knowing Reflektor plant is located in Russia, I knew this was bound to happen. Some manufacturers will have to switch to JJ and Shuguang for their stock tubes, and those factories will have to ramp up the production to keep up with the demand (which I'm not sure are capable of). So war could really take a toll on tube amps more than modellers have in the last decades.


The Shuguang factory is closed too. There was apparently a fire last August and they may have needed to relocate and haven't reopened.

So JJ from Slovakia are pretty much the only source for current production guitar amp tubes besides the supplies at various vendors and manufacturers. Probably a bigger issue for new tube amps being made than for current owners.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

Zado said:


> Shuguang has to open back tho. And I'm not seeing that in a close future, honestly



Dang. didn't know it closed! Is Psvane still open though?

Uh, oh. The torch is on JJ now it seems. Most countries are already cashing on Russian tubes:





Tung-Sol 6L6GC-STR Audio Tubes - www.thetubestore.com


Buy Tung-Sol 6L6GC-STR vacuum tubes online, in stock and ready to ship! Find reviews, data sheets and specs to upgrade your tube amplifier.




www.thetubestore.com


----------



## runbirdman (Mar 14, 2022)

I keep one of the AMT Warm Stones in a gig bag as a backup tube in case of malfunction. I've rolled it through my 5150III and my Friedman and was not happy with the sound. It added gain and took away warmth. I would venture to guess, if you replaced all of your preamp tubes with them, it would sound HM2-esque into the front end of the amp. I'm really hoping a tube shortage could become the impetus for some innovation in solid-state tubes. I think it would be great if someone like James Brown, Thomas Blug, or Mike Fuller (politics aside, the OCD can make a solid-state amp sound like a tube amp) gave it a shot to see if they can get closer. Vacuum tubes will never be fully replaced, but I do think there is space in the marketplace for a viable solid-state alternative.


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## sevenfoxes (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> That's probably more about catering to the folks buying them. You can sell a bassist an amp that has things like parameteric mids but somehow guitarists will balk at anything that doesn't sound like what they have heard on some old record or if it is more complex than a treble-middle-bass tone stack.


Mosts guitarists don’t need anything more complex than a treble-mids-bass stack (and presence, resonance) tone stack. I know a lot of people that get rid of their Mesa Mark amps just because the added eq is overkill for their needs, and they spend more time tone chasing than actual playing.

I honestly think it has more to do with the fact that most of the best distorted amp tones have already been established by tube amps. Just look at all the digital/modeling gear and you’ll see the same thing applies: most distorted presets are based off of tube amps.

With the exception of a handful of SS amps, it’s mainly been tube amps that have dominated the rock/metal genre. Manufacturers know this, so that’s the template they usually go off of. It’s a safe bet.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

People are already purchasing/hoarding tubes like toilet paper 

It's gonna be damn hard to get people into SS amps. Boss tried with the Waza and was a commercial disaster. Very few people wants to spend 2k in a SS amp (wether it's good or not) if they can get a tube amp instead. This is not a problem for bass players who usually prefer raw clean power instead.

I've tried a fuckton of preamps both direct and through a poweramp and SS ones just don't sound like tube amps at all (regardless of what manufacturers or youtubers say). That is cool if you are not interested in "tube sound", but most people are (since those are the sounds they've grown with and love).

Should tubes become extinct due to warshit, I believe most people will go the other way and get into modellers instead, which as mentioned above are much better at reproducing "tube tone" while also having plenty of other advantages.

Time has proven over and over again that tubes are not going away anytime soon, and both tube amps and modellers have been sharing the guitar market in parallalel ways with no signs of either taking over. But major causes (all tube factories actually disappearing) could definetely render tube amps officially extinct.


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

sevenfoxes said:


> Mosts guitarists don’t need anything more complex than a treble-mids-bass stack (and presence, resonance) tone stack. I know a lot of people that get rid of their Mesa Mark amps just because the added eq is overkill for their needs, and they spend more time tone chasing than actual playing.
> 
> I honestly think it has more to do with the fact that most of the best distorted amp tones have already been established by tube amps. Just look at all the digital/modeling gear and you’ll see the same thing applies: most distorted presets are based off of tube amps.
> 
> With the exception of a handful of SS amps, it’s mainly been tube amps that have dominated the rock/metal genre. Manufacturers know this, so that’s the template they usually go off of. It’s a safe bet.


That's basically how you get a lot of amps that are variations of the same things. All because guitarists hate anything more complex and especially anything different.

The issue with Mesa Marks is that they are not very intuitive to work with. It's a definite learning curve between the knobs vs graphic EQ and then you have severe compromises to make all that work with multiple channels. It's a unique design that would have probably been long forgotten if it had not gained traction with some famous players.

Something like parametric mids where you can sweep the center frequency adds another pot so that's very little extra complication for the user but the actual circuitry to make it happen gets more complex for the builder. Or even something as useful as separate high and low mids pots is rarely seen in amps even though that adds a ton of flexibility without being hard to understand.

But manufacturers don't make these because they don't sell.


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## sevenfoxes (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> That's basically how you get a lot of amps that are variations of the same things. All because guitarists hate anything more complex and especially anything different.
> 
> The issue with Mesa Marks is that they are not very intuitive to work with. It's a definite learning curve between the knobs vs graphic EQ and then you have severe compromises to make all that work with multiple channels. It's a unique design that would have probably been long forgotten if it had not gained traction with some famous players.
> 
> ...


Do they not sell because of the extra mid knob, or because the amp just wasn’t all that great to begin with? 

I think the only SS amp i had with extra mids was the Ibanez TBX150H. Not a bad amp at all, but definitely fell short of competing with my recto or 5150.

I also used to have the same Crate amp that Canibal Corpse used, and i think that one may also have had extra tone shaping abilities (could be wrong though). Again, decent amp, but nothing to write home about.

So what are some other high gain amps that feature the extra mids that didn’t sell well? Genuinely curious.


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## Shask (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> That's probably more about catering to the folks buying them. You can sell a bassist an amp that has things like parameteric mids but somehow guitarists will balk at anything that doesn't sound like what they have heard on some old record or if it is more complex than a treble-middle-bass tone stack.
> 
> 
> The BluGuitar Amp 1 stuff is the only things I've used that have been truly able to do it and they use a subminiature tube for it. Basically solid-state preamp -> subminiature tube used in the poweramp circuit -> Class D poweramp to make it loud. Feels and behaves like a classic Marshall type amp.
> ...


Maybe that is the key. Some sort of component that is basically a mini-tube, the size of a capacitor that sits in the feedback loop that helps with this interaction. I can agree that once you have it, I think it is there. I have messed with using the slave out on my Triple Recto (which is taken off a tap on the OT) into my Matrix Power amp to power another cabinet with effects, and it still interacts well.

Yeah, the Matrix is good, but there is still something missing in the low end. I have an Axe II that I have had for years, and the low end has never been as dynamic as the real Triple Recto. Maybe the Axe III would be better? I dunno. Running it into a tube poweramp does help, but I found it best to leave the power amp modeling on, and lowering the resonances on the speaker tab of the amp block. There have definitely been times I have considered getting an Axe III and a Mesa or Freyette stereo tube power amp. I think people that are happy with these setups, especially FRFR, are usually people who like versatility over having one massive sound.


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## sevenfoxes (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> The issue with Mesa Marks is that they are not very intuitive to work with. It's a definite learning curve between the knobs vs graphic EQ and then you have severe compromises to make all that work with multiple channels. It's a unique design that would have probably been long forgotten if it had not gained traction with some famous players.


This is why I’m not so sure it has anything to do with the extra tone shaping features. The Marks are incredibly popular amps, yet it’s a somewhat an overwhelming and cumbersome amp due to its eq design.

To me that says if they build a good enough sounding amp, then guitarists are willing to look past its extra complexities.

Furthermore, take something like the Axe Fx that has a seemingly never ending array of tweaking possibilities, but somehow that doesn’t seem to be stopping Fractal from selling them in droves.

I think if the tradeoff is worth it, then guitarists are game for that learning curve.


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

sevenfoxes said:


> Do they not sell because of the extra mid knob, or because the amp just wasn’t all that great to begin with?


It was a general statement. They don't get made (in solid-state or tube versions) in the first place because guitarists are conservative. I'm sure there are examples of many amps that were not that great sounding with more complex EQs and that's probably going to have an effect where guitarists think the issue is the EQ.

These things go in cycles where we had "rack gear is cool and super versatile" to "I want pure tone by plugging direct into my combo/halfstack" to "you know what, adding a few pedals in front of my favorite amps is fine". In similar vein digital modeling has gone from being the devil to "you know, it's actually pretty good".


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## laxu (Mar 14, 2022)

Shask said:


> Maybe that is the key. Some sort of component that is basically a mini-tube, the size of a capacitor that sits in the feedback loop that helps with this interaction. I can agree that once you have it, I think it is there. I have messed with using the slave out on my Triple Recto (which is taken off a tap on the OT) into my Matrix Power amp to power another cabinet with effects, and it still interacts well.
> 
> Yeah, the Matrix is good, but there is still something missing in the low end. I have an Axe II that I have had for years, and the low end has never been as dynamic as the real Triple Recto. Maybe the Axe III would be better? I dunno. Running it into a tube poweramp does help, but I found it best to leave the power amp modeling on, and lowering the resonances on the speaker tab of the amp block. There have definitely been times I have considered getting an Axe III and a Mesa or Freyette stereo tube power amp. I think people that are happy with these setups, especially FRFR, are usually people who like versatility over having one massive sound.


Seems even Axe-Fx 3 users are not totally satisfied with the Matrix stuff. I've never tried it so can't say or offer anything that might help. 

I'm pretty happy with how modelers work with either the BluGuitar or my Fryette PS-100. At the same time I think the Axe-Fx 3 sounds pretty great through my studio monitors as well but the challenges there are different and more to do with finding the exact right cab sim settings.


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## youngthrasher9 (Mar 14, 2022)

I’m gonna be the heretic here and say that I very much don’t give a flying fuck if an amp sounds “tube like” or not. 

I want string separation, note clarity, growl, cut, grunt, and saturation. How it’s achieved, I couldn’t care less.


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## Shask (Mar 14, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> I’m gonna be the heretic here and say that I very much don’t give a flying fuck if an amp sounds “tube like” or not.
> 
> I want string separation, note clarity, growl, cut, grunt, and saturation. How it’s achieved, I couldn’t care less.


Those descriptions though are pretty much what people mean when they say "tube like".


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## Deadpool_25 (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> I only have one tube amp.


Get your shit together slaxu.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Bearitone said:


> That thing ripped! For gigging or bedroom jamming, its amazing.
> Downsides:
> -You can't connect anything but the proprietary extension cab
> -The dedicated sub with a crossover for the low frequencies might be tricky to mic.
> ...



I almost bought one years ago. Wish I had.



Emperoff said:


> Lmao. I've been hearing that line for the last fifteen years



Sure. But guitar players as a general rule are very conservative and very particular about their instrument. We are talking about something that isn't necessarily better or worse really. Just different. SS amps don't sound bad. They sound different. And most guitar players want to sound like some other player rather than sculpting their own sound out of things that are intentionally different. I fall into the latter category though. I have tones I love from bands I love. But I don't want to be those players, play like those players, or sound like those players.



laxu said:


> That's probably more about catering to the folks buying them. You can sell a bassist an amp that has things like parameteric mids but somehow guitarists will balk at anything that doesn't sound like what they have heard on some old record or if it is more complex than a treble-middle-bass tone stack.



That's absolutely what it is. Because that's what sells. There's no money in sounding different intentionally unless you're an artist who happens to get lucky.



Emperoff said:


> I have an AMT SS tube around. I feel the need to remind everyone those were 40$, so quite expensive to become a standard. It sounds dryier, tighter and gainer than regular tubes. In other words, it sounds like SS. They don't go microphonic or wear out (at least not as fast as a tube, which still can last thousands of hours).
> 
> Now, speaking from ignorance of what is really cooking inside those SS tubes... What is the point of them? Considering AMT approach to tubes, I suspect it's just two high voltage JFETs acting as two separate triodes just like regular tubes, but we all know that can be implemented into an amp or pedal PCB without the need of a tube socket or tube-looking bottle.
> 
> From my perspective as a tube seller, SS tubes only make sense as a replacement for those who have a tube amp, but want to get rid of the disadvantages of conventional tubes (microphonics, reliability, etc). It also gets rid of the tube sound, feel and response, so at that point why not just buy a SS amp?



There's also the familiar interface with the amp. Potentially saving tubes for recording, then switching them out for solid state to gig. There are reasons beyond just those disadvantages you listed.



Zado said:


> Shuguang has to open back tho. And I'm not seeing that in a close future, honestly



Not just that. Its hard to get anything at all out of China into the US right now. Computer manufacturers are running low on parts right now. Can't hardly get anything. In some instances, its taking 3-6 months to deliver on orders.



sevenfoxes said:


> I honestly think it has more to do with the fact that most of the best distorted amp tones have already been established by tube amps. Just look at all the digital/modeling gear and you’ll see the same thing applies: most distorted presets are based off of tube amps.
> 
> With the exception of a handful of SS amps, it’s mainly been tube amps that have dominated the rock/metal genre. Manufacturers know this, so that’s the template they usually go off of. It’s a safe bet.



Best is a subjective argument. I'd venture a wager that almost any of those same players that created those tones pared with the same engineers would have gotten incredible sounds regardless. The construction of the amps used was likely only a minor part of the equation. Now, if you want to talk feel? Sure. The feel is different. I don't like Sag though. Hate it actually, unless I'm going for that exaggerated Fuzz sort of thing.

To your point of who used what on what being a selling point? Absolutely correct. I'd venture that most of why guitar players are so fetishistic about tube amps and tonewood is because of player worship and salesmen.



Emperoff said:


> People are already purchasing/hoarding tubes like toilet paper
> 
> It's gonna be damn hard to get people into SS amps. Boss tried with the Waza and was a commercial disaster. Very few people wants to spend 2k in a SS amp (wether it's good or not) if they can get a tube amp instead. This is not a problem for bass players who usually prefer raw clean power instead.
> 
> ...



As has been stated, maybe later in this thread than this was posted, there's only one spot to get tubes from right now. Prices are going to go WAY up. Especially in the states. There were only three manufacturers left at any scale worth mentioning. I doubt the Slovakian plant will be able to meet demand and manage quality of any sort. To me, if this conflict goes on for very long, factoring the slow response of the shuguang plant rebuilding, its a coffin nail. It may take another decade to finally die out with the absolute purists, but honestly? Why hold on to it? We've been focused on the same tones for 40-50 years. That's stagnation as far as I'm concerned. Maybe moving past the tube is the thing we need for an explosion of new, incredible guitar sounds that spark whole new genres of music.



laxu said:


> It was a general statement. They don't get made (in solid-state or tube versions) in the first place because guitarists are conservative. I'm sure there are examples of many amps that were not that great sounding with more complex EQs and that's probably going to have an effect where guitarists think the issue is the EQ.
> 
> These things go in cycles where we had "rack gear is cool and super versatile" to "I want pure tone by plugging direct into my combo/halfstack" to "you know what, adding a few pedals in front of my favorite amps is fine". In similar vein digital modeling has gone from being the devil to "you know, it's actually pretty good".



The only reason modeling got a chance was because people could get close to what they were used to and basically had access to an entire vault of different amp sounds at the push of a button live. That coupled with, its easier to lug around and a sound guy can make it sound huge live, and you have converts. Ian Thornley used a Line 6 Vetta on his first US Thornley tour. At least for the show I was at. And he sounded INSANELY good. He had the best tone of anyone that night. 



Shask said:


> Those descriptions though are pretty much what people mean when they say "tube like".



No, to me having spent a lot of time with both. Having owned some pretty sick tube amps, like Budda, Rivera, and Diezel, I can say that Solid State is generally better at note separation when its a good example. Warmth is just the overtones generated by the signal. Tubes always distort a little. Solid State doesn't. That distortion, or lack of clarity in the signal of a tube amp, is the 'warmth'. Sag is just choked power delivery, compressing a transient. Some people find these characteristics desirable. A while back I started thinking about all of this. Why are any of these things desirable? The answer is simply, because we heard someone we idolize used it. Our perception is players is SO often determined by our eyes, and not by just chasing the muse and discovering how to make something work for us in order to make a sound that is characteristically our own. Rather than chasing the Andy Sneap sound... Or the Beano Tone... Or EVH... Or whoever... What baring do any of those sounds have on your creativity? What's stopping you from making the raddest sound you've ever heard on a Pignose? Or plugged into a clean bass amp? Or whatever creative idea you have at whatever time with whatever piece of gear you choose... My point is, why are we looking backwards constantly trying to recreate sounds when there are all the sounds out there that haven't been created? And who is more qualified to judge how good your sound is other than you? Fuck sounding like anyone else. Or even a guitar in the traditional sense. Make something new.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> As has been stated, maybe later in this thread than this was posted, there's only one spot to get tubes from right now. Prices are going to go WAY up. Especially in the states. There were only three manufacturers left at any scale worth mentioning. I doubt the Slovakian plant will be able to meet demand and manage quality of any sort. To me, if this conflict goes on for very long, factoring the slow response of the shuguang plant rebuilding, its a coffin nail. It may take another decade to finally die out with the absolute purists, but honestly? Why hold on to it? We've been focused on the same tones for 40-50 years. That's stagnation as far as I'm concerned. Maybe moving past the tube is the thing we need for an explosion of new, incredible guitar sounds that spark whole new genres of music.



Yup. They are already. The Tube Store is already selling 6L6 at 70$/each. I just received aa message from a possible customer directly asking "how much of these do you have"? So yeah, things are gonna get ugly.

JJ will probably ramp up the prices to slow the demand, and in turn amp manufacturers will ramp up the prices as well. As I said it might very well end in tube extinction.

Why hold onto it? Well, that is too broad of a question to answer. But with every new tech there is always people refusing to adapt. However, when new tech is actually _*worse*_ than the old tech for whaat is supposed to do (just more profitable for mass producing it), then you're gonna have a very hard tiem convincing people to give the old tech up. And that's what the eternal "Tubes Vs SS" is, basically.



Thaeon said:


> Having owned some pretty sick tube amps, like Budda, Rivera, and Diezel, I can say that Solid State is generally better at note separation when its a good example. Warmth is just the overtones generated by the signal. Tubes always distort a little. Solid State doesn't. That distortion, or lack of clarity in the signal of a tube amp, is the 'warmth'. Sag is just choked power delivery, compressing a transient. Some people find these characteristics desirable.



You're conveniently ommiting that SS does indeed distort. In a very unpleasant way, in fact (odd order harmonics). When transistors clip, the wavelength is chopped, not compressed (as in tube circuits). The resulting harmonics and distortion produced sucks. Big time.

Those characteristics are desirable because they interact with the player dynamics and expression. As an artist, won't you prefer tools that help you express better? You might not give a damn or notice a difference, but plenty of people do and it's perfectly respectable.



Thaeon said:


> A while back I started thinking about all of this. Why are any of these things desirable? The answer is simply, because we heard someone we idolize used it.



Fuck no. I mean, no fucking way. Save that crap for the Van Halen "Brown Sound" tonechasers.

I don't give a damn about what anybody else uses. I never have. I collect preamps (both tube and SS) and either I like what I hear or not. And I like what I hear in tube amps. One of my all time favourite players was Dimebag Darrell. He used SS amps, and I honestly think his tone sounds like shit. Satch's Surfing with the Alien album sounds like ass by today's standards, and it's still a great album. He probably used tube amps but there's no way I'm interested in chasing that tone. The list goes on and on.

It's much simpler than that. I think: "Ok, I need 4 tones for my band". What gear can give them to me with minimum investment, hassle and weight?" I test stuff that ticks the boxes, and choose what I like.

Invalidating everyone's tonal preferences because you think we try to copy somebody else is just bullshit.


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

I definitely try to use my tube amps to create my own sound, but I also appreciate the weird imperfect qualities of tube amps like the sag and compression -- IMO they make the amp feel more organic and fun to interact with.


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## Deadpool_25 (Mar 14, 2022)

I had a Matrix when I was using the AxeFX II. I ran that with a pair of Mesa 2x12 horizontal cabs. It was really good but just didn’t quite nail…_something_.

Now I have the FM9 and like to run that through my EVH heads. That setup is lacking nothing. It’s phenomenal. Until SS can truly replicate that interaction between a tube-driven output section with those big-ass transformers. I’ll stick with my tubes. Or until tubes are no longer available and all mine die—I’ll probably die before all my tubes in my heads and that I have on hand go bad anyway tbh.


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## youngthrasher9 (Mar 14, 2022)

Shask said:


> Those descriptions though are pretty much what people mean when they say "tube like".


Which may be true but I don’t think that those characteristics are even remotely exclusive to tube amps or modelers.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> Which may be true but I don’t think that those characteristics are even remotely exclusive to tube amps or modelers.



To be honest I don't even know what the hell half of those mean 

"Grunt", "bark", "girth", "snarl"... I just imagine using those in my own language in a real conversation and immediately burst in laughter


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Yup. They are already. The Tube Store is already selling 6L6 at 70$/each. I just received aa message from a possible customer directly asking "how much of these do you have"? So yeah, things are gonna get ugly.
> 
> JJ will probably ramp up the prices to slow the demand, and in turn amp manufacturers will ramp up the prices as well. As I said it might very well end in tube extinction.
> 
> ...




I'm not necessarily attempting to invalidate. If someone is really into copying tones of stuff, awesome. I'll probably get bored with the music. But its art. Not everyone will like it. And it doesn't have to be liked to be valid or considered good. Just looking at progress in this case from a perspective that is positive.

Yes, solid state does have distortion. Though, not as much as tube amps until you start to clip. There's a reason bass players prefer them for the most part. I'm not pointing my thoughts at any one particular person, just responding to their thoughts with my observations about guitar players in general. 

I don't think Surfing sounds bad at all. Its sounds different. You can hear all the parts. Plenty note separation. The guitars cut well. I think the engineering of that album is weak comparative to even albums of its time. Considering he had almost no budget on his first two releases and was funding them off of credit cards, none of this should be a surprise. I'm not chasing that tone either. Dime's tone was attrocious. But I don't think it was the amps. I think it was his ears. His Damageplan tone was just as gross IMO. Honestly not all that different from his tone on Reinventing the Steel. 

As far as technology goes, and tubes being the better tech, you're making the assumption that all players want the same things from their equipment. Sag makes amps feel slower and looser to me. I don't like that. I want sharp, start/stop with zero lag. Tube amps are generally bad at that. Where tubes are generally better equipped is that they more gradually transition from clean to clip in the low to mid-gain thing. Those are things that are getting better though. On my Waza head, after adjusting a little, I'm able to do that pretty well. It doesn't feel like a tube amp really. Especially at lower volumes. But it sounds really good. And I've never been 100% satisfied with how tube amps feel. I feel like the interplay between a SS amp and the speaker is much faster but maybe a bit less sensitive. It does sound a little colder. But I actually like that. But I'm also a person who likes the guitar tones of Cult of Luna and Nine Inch Nails. Neither are what I would call... Traditional sounds.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Mar 14, 2022)

youngthrasher9 said:


> Which may be true but I don’t think that those characteristics are even remotely exclusive to tube amps or modelers.


Yeah I was gonna say... uh... that sounds like how people describe tone regardless of origin.  



Emperoff said:


> To be honest I don't even know what the hell half of those mean
> 
> "Grunt", "bark", "girth", "snarl"... I just imagine using those in my own language in a real conversation and immediately burst in laughter


Also this.  Someone can say "Yo this amp really scrimbos listen to that scrunkly tone" and I wouldn't be surprised at this rate.


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## Shask (Mar 14, 2022)

Deadpool_25 said:


> I had a Matrix when I was using the AxeFX II. I ran that with a pair of Mesa 2x12 horizontal cabs. It was really good but just didn’t quite nail…_something_.
> 
> Now I have the FM9 and like to run that through my EVH heads. That setup is lacking nothing. It’s phenomenal. Until SS can truly replicate that interaction between a tube-driven output section with those big-ass transformers. I’ll stick with my tubes. Or until tubes are no longer available and all mine die—I’ll probably die before all my tubes in my heads and that I have on hand go bad anyway tbh.


Its that speaker / poweramp / OT reactive interation I was talking about earlier. That gives tube amps a lot of their feel, especially in the low end. If people can figure out how to replicate that, then that will be the day tubes will start to be less desired.

I have considered doing what you are doing, but then again, using the Axe to sound like a 5153, plugged into a 5153, seems silly, lol. I tend to mostly use it for effects these days.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> To be honest I don't even know what the hell half of those mean
> 
> "Grunt", "bark", "girth", "snarl"... I just imagine using those in my own language in a real conversation and immediately burst in laughter



There's probably a fair amount of overlap, and they may mean different things to different people too. They're mostly nonsense when used in groups to me, because grunt to one person may mean bark to another.


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## Shask (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I'm not necessarily attempting to invalidate. If someone is really into copying tones of stuff, awesome. I'll probably get bored with the music. But its art. Not everyone will like it. And it doesn't have to be liked to be valid or considered good. Just looking at progress in this case from a perspective that is positive.
> 
> Yes, solid state does have distortion. Though, not as much as tube amps until you start to clip. There's a reason bass players prefer them for the most part. I'm not pointing my thoughts at any one particular person, just responding to their thoughts with my observations about guitar players in general.
> 
> ...


Sag is where the Chug lives.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Shask said:


> Its that speaker / poweramp / OT reactive interation I was talking about earlier. That gives tube amps a lot of their feel, especially in the low end. If people can figure out how to replicate that, then that will be the day tubes will start to be less desired.
> 
> I have considered doing what you are doing, but then again, using the Axe to sound like a 5153, plugged into a 5153, seems silly, lol. I tend to mostly use it for effects these days.



I wonder if this has to do with tubes being better at handling power peaks than Solid State amps. Those peaks probably translate better. Maybe because they're compressing more, you end up with a sound that has a delayed decay in addition to a delayed transient due to squeezing all that voltage through due to sag. Sort of like putting a kink in a waterhose.


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## Emperoff (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> There's probably a fair amount of overlap, and they may mean different things to different people too. They're mostly nonsense when used in groups to me, because grunt to one person may mean bark to another.



This is how I imagine pickup manufacturer's descriptions:


----------



## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Shask said:


> Sag is where the Chug lives.



I'm not really into breakdowns and such. I like Meshuggah as much as the next metalhead. But, I don't like playing that kind of stuff really. I like fast, strident palm mutes. Not a lot of low end going through my chain despite playing an 8 string dropped to E.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> This is how I imagine pickup manufacturer's descriptions:




Exactly. I think sales people and manufacturers pounce on all this onomatopoeia, for enticing pitches and copy. It spreads around, and no one really knows what it means specifically. Its the Umami of the Guitar Fetishist.


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## Shask (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I'm not really into breakdowns and such. I like Meshuggah as much as the next metalhead. But, I don't like playing that kind of stuff really. I like fast, strident palm mutes. Not a lot of low end going through my chain despite playing an 8 string dropped to E.


I dont like sounds that are too tight, and middy. Sounds like hitting a cardboard box with a stick. Thud thud thud. Yuck. lol.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Shask said:


> I dont like sounds that are too tight, and middy. Sounds like hitting a cardboard box with a stick. Thud thud thud. Yuck. lol.



That's fair. I like lots of mids. I like to cut and generally think that the best tones in the mix tend to be boxy out of one. Let the bass do the heavy lifting in the lows and low-mids. If they lock in well with the guitar, you've got killer tone.


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## Shask (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> That's fair. I like lots of mids. I like to cut and generally think that the best tones in the mix tend to be boxy out of one. Let the bass do the heavy lifting in the lows and low-mids. If they lock in well with the guitar, you've got killer tone.


I like chunky thrashy. Like a classic Master of Puppets, or old school Carcass type tone. For lower tuned, like a Nevermore, or Fear Factory type tone.


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

Probably one of the better SS tones I've heard is from the AMT Stonehead. It has a kind of squishy, compressed tube vibe but also not entirely the same either. I'd love to try one out sometime.

Hah, just a brief look and they are still super hard to come by -- 2 on ebay right now.


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## bostjan (Mar 14, 2022)

If solid state distortion is so awful-sounding, why are 99% of all distortion pedals solid state?

There's a company in Germany that was making transistor replicas of well-known tube amps (sorry if someone already brought this up), and they sounded great and sold for rather high prices.

If you just think about this sort of stuff with a sprinkling of skepticism, most of the tube/solid state debate boils down to the same basic ingredients as the tonewood debate. 

I think we all know that tube amp and solid state amps don't sound the same, but I think trying to justify why tubes are objectively better is a great way to lose your credibility, unless you tread very lightly.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

bostjan said:


> If solid state distortion is so awful-sounding, why are 99% of all distortion pedals solid state?
> 
> There's a company in Germany that was making transistor replicas of well-known tube amps (sorry if someone already brought this up), and they sounded great and sold for rather high prices.
> 
> ...



This is especially the case if a core part of your tone is boosting the front end of your amp with a solid state drive.


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> This is especially the case if a core part of your tone is boosting the front end of your amp with a solid state drive.



Boosting is really just increasing the input gain and giving a slight EQ/compression to the sound, though, you're still utilizing the core of an amp's tone. It doesn't automatically override the character of the amp or replace it, even if it does lend some more SS character to it.


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## sevenfoxes (Mar 14, 2022)

Love me some sag, hence the recto being my favorite amp. I’m still stuck in the late 90’s/early 2000’s though.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Choop said:


> Boosting is really just increasing the input gain and giving a slight EQ/compression to the sound, though, you're still utilizing the core of an amp's tone. It doesn't automatically override the character of the amp or replace it, even if it does lend some more SS character to it.



Even if not the most audible, that drive (all drives really) are clipping at least a little with the gain above zero. By design. Most people use an 808 style drive. And those aren't 'clean' even with the gain almost off. Unless its a clean boost. And in the case of both, there's still the distortion of the amplification that comes into play. While it doesn't use a huge power amplifier, it does use a small one that introduces some distortion just as any audio equipment will.

Point being, everyone here likes SS distortion to some degree. Some of us prefer more tube-like sounds than others do. But we have a lot of trouble articulating what the it factor is as guitar players. "Woody tone"? WTF does that even mean? None of us use strictly tube only gear though. If any of us wanted to be purists about that stuff, it would be really hard to maintain that kind of attitude without some solid state something sneaking in there. Tubes are a great, robust technology. So are transistors. I like them both generally speaking. But I think one is a dying tech, and probably one that will price itself out of existence. It will open up the floor to something else to further develop or be developed entirely. That I find exciting. We have so many people out there designing killer amps with old tech. What happens when those same people apply themselves to solid state? The VH Mini is a killer amp. Not a tube in it. I imagine that the minds behind the whole synergy project (Friedman, Fryette, Diezel, et al.) will be on the leading edge of that stuff if it becomes apparent that tube availability is going to prevent sales of product. And I'm willing to wager it'll sound better than any of the SS stuff before it. Personally I'd like to see people lean into the Solid State sound a little more. Or, create amps that can go both ways. I don't know though. I have some ill received thoughts on tone and its sources anyway. I don't have a lot of patience for anything unsupported by data. There are differences in the harmonic content of tubes and transistors and in some of their electrical behaviors. Whether or not that make one better than the other is in an aesthetic audio perception perspective is entirely subjective.


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Even if not the most audible, that drive (all drives really) are clipping at least a little with the gain above zero. By design. Most people use an 808 style drive. And those aren't 'clean' even with the gain almost off. Unless its a clean boost. And in the case of both, there's still the distortion of the amplification that comes into play. While it doesn't use a huge power amplifier, it does use a small one that introduces some distortion just as any audio equipment will.



It definitely isn't the same as relying solely on solid state clipping from an SS amp, which I'm not even necessarily saying is always bad, but it just isn't an equivalent thing. Of course a boost pedal is clipping, but what's nice is being able to adjust the gain and control the clipping and how it interacts with the amp's tone/gain.


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## bostjan (Mar 14, 2022)

It all depends.

A tube screamer is basically just adding on a 0th state to your preamp, so, if your tube amp has 4 preamp stages, and you tube screamer it, you're hearing basically 20% solid state 80% tube tone.

But, coming back to my previous point, some of the most iconic heavy tones in history came from *gasp* solid state amps!

Don't get me wrong, I play through a tube amp. I love my tube amp. But I'm never going to tell you that my tube amp is *better* than every solid state amp. Amps are just circuits. Tubes are a means to an end, and there are other ways available to reach that same end just as well and with less hassle.

Ever notice how, outside of guitar amps and hobbyist deep into a rabbit hole, there are literally zero modern applications for tube amps? There are a few good reasons why.


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## MASS DEFECT (Mar 14, 2022)

I was about to sell my FM9 last night to take advantage of it being out of stock and unobtanium for the next 5 months. 

Took it out of the box to clean it, and make sure it is in good condition. Plugged it to the Matrik 1600 watt power amp. Quickly changed my mind. Sounds goooooood. These Matrix SS amps sound so warm compared to the other SS power amps out there. Give it some volume and that huge headroom just gives you all the clarity, attack, and tone separation you need.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Choop said:


> It definitely isn't the same as relying solely on solid state clipping from an SS amp, which I'm not even necessarily saying is always bad, but it just isn't an equivalent thing. Of course a boost pedal is clipping, but what's nice is being able to adjust the gain and control the clipping and how it interacts with the amp's tone/gain.



Sure. Its not equivalent because its not entirely derived. But it supports the idea that what most of us like as a sound has a healthy amount of Solid State in it. Including tightening the low end. Part of that is carving some of it off. Part of me wonders at the old Randall Hybrid amps had SS power. People raved about those. I wonder if putting a tube drive in front of a SS amp would be a 'good' tone. What characteristics would it impart that are 'missing'? Most of us High Gain players rely on a pretty cold and undistorted power section. Our 'tone' comes from the preamp mostly.

To respond to @MASS DEFECT-

The tube overtones can be added to a signal if you really want that 'tube' sound digitally. We know what the harmonic values are. Put them into a convolution engine that samples all of the notes used and then paste the appropriate overtones much like you would do with a cab sim or a reverb.


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## bostjan (Mar 14, 2022)

Here's a fairly short and fairly decent article about the myths of tube distortion.






Tube vs. Solid State: The Truth Behind Tube Distortion


Exploring some of the myths and hype related to tube guitar amps and tube distortion. Why amplifier modeling is more important than tube emulation?



www.tonestack.net





Enjoy.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Great info. And a lot that I didn't know.

Basically this guy is saying that there's really no difference at all except in the transition between no distortion and distortion when you have two amps that are equivalently engineered and produced. Probably due to the higher clean headroom of solid state components. Kinda fascinating.


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## youngthrasher9 (Mar 14, 2022)

bostjan said:


> Here's a fairly short and fairly decent article about the myths of tube distortion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was a great great read.


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## Marked Man (Mar 14, 2022)

kamisama said:


> I don't know if I'd trust Reverb or GC online, I've honestly never purchased a used product in my life. I'd be fine with modeling if it meant buying new over used, I'm a bit too fearful. I forgot to mention but the Iconics are also a cheaper option for me, but I haven't checked out their tones yet. Still, I definitely want a high-quality high-gain upgrade (not boss Katana).



Just don't end up like a poor version of Howard Hughes at the end......he was afraid to touch doorknobs because of the germs that were surely hiding on them....waiting to ATTACK!!!!


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Sure. Its not equivalent because its not entirely derived. But it supports the idea that what most of us like as a sound has a healthy amount of Solid State in it. Including tightening the low end. Part of that is carving some of it off. Part of me wonders at the old Randall Hybrid amps had SS power. People raved about those. I wonder if putting a tube drive in front of a SS amp would be a 'good' tone. What characteristics would it impart that are 'missing'? Most of us High Gain players rely on a pretty cold and undistorted power section. Our 'tone' comes from the preamp mostly.



I wouldn't call boosting a "healthy amount" really haha. It's more of an EQ tool than anything when specifically set to boost. The power sections for tube amps still compress the sound in a pleasing way even if they are biased cold like say, the 5150 series. I play a couple Mesas, one being a Recto, and that power section plays a huge part in the overall tone that amp has and the way it reacts to playing. Whether a tube drive into a solid state amp sounds good or not at a higher volume probably just depends heavily on the design of the power amp, and also how much headroom it has. I believe most of those Randalls all had more headroom which helped a lot in keeping them from getting farty sounding or clipping too much at high volume. And I mentioned that AMT Stonehead earlier -- it's 50 watts but demos make it sound great, maybe it's just an especially well-designed amp, not sure how it'd sound super cranked though. There is a video on youtube of a guy playing with a drummer to prove it works in a gig setting, and they say it definitely does, but in the video it sounds like the drums are absolutely burying it lol.


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## torchlord (Mar 14, 2022)

kamisama said:


> wheresthefbomb said:
> 
> 
> > If anything it seems that SS amp innovation has tapered off since its inception. In the 70s-90s there were lots of hybrid or full SS units that were well-designed to take advantage of the unique characteristics of SS amplification. All but the earliest Music Man amps used SS pre sections and was seen by the builders as an upgrade in functionality/reliability, to the point that when older models with tube pre/PI came in for warranty work it was standard to upgrade the pre to SS.
> ...


I know seriously, I killed my Katana 100 head three times, the first time was a transformer meltdown when I accidentally had the jack not pushed into the cabinet and after that got fixed I killed it again, with a fuse on the amplifier board going bad, and this last time not sure it is just sitting after some smoke came out of it and it stopped working. I haven't bothered to take it apart and see what happened. Katanas definitely don't work well if you want loud like my tube amps. I guess you get what you pay for.


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Choop said:


> I wouldn't call boosting a "healthy amount" really haha. It's more of an EQ tool than anything when specifically set to boost. The power sections for tube amps still compress the sound in a pleasing way even if they are biased cold like say, the 5150 series. I play a couple Mesas, one being a Recto, and that power section plays a huge part in the overall tone that amp has and the way it reacts to playing. Whether a tube drive into a solid state amp sounds good or not at a higher volume probably just depends heavily on the design of the power amp, and also how much headroom it has. I believe most of those Randalls all had more headroom which helped a lot in keeping them from getting farty sounding or clipping too much at high volume. And I mentioned that AMT Stonehead earlier -- it's 50 watts but demos make it sound great, maybe it's just an especially well-designed amp, not sure how it'd sound super cranked though. There is a video on youtube of a guy playing with a drummer to prove it works in a gig setting, and they say it definitely does, but in the video it sounds like the drums are absolutely burying it lol.




Read that article Bostjan posted earlier. I think it will be eye opening. It was for me in some ways. Most solid state guitar amps that have been produced have been budget amps. Not built with the same care and engineering that a good tube amp has. From what that article says, there’s virtually no difference in actual performance other than transitioning between no gain and having gain. Transistor transition slower because they have higher headroom. You’ve just gotta find the sweet spot in a well built SS amp. 

As far as boats are concerned it’s still an active circuit affecting your sound via solid state components. Tube amps also have plenty solid state components in them. Old Marshalls apparently hard clip in the power section based on that article. Again, it’s worth checking out.


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## torchlord (Mar 14, 2022)

runbirdman said:


> I keep one of the AMT Warm Stones in a gig bag as a backup tube in case of malfunction. I've rolled it through my 5150III and my Friedman and was not happy with the sound. It added gain and took away warmth. I would venture to guess, if you replaced all of your preamp tubes with them, it would sound HM2-esque into the front end of the amp. I'm really hoping a tube shortage could become the impetus for some innovation in solid-state tubes. I think it would be great if someone like James Brown, Thomas Blug, or Mike Fuller (politics aside, the OCD can make a solid-state amp sound like a tube amp) gave it a shot to see if they can get closer. Vacuum tubes will never be fully replaced, but I do think there is space in the marketplace for a viable solid-state alternative.


All of the Blu guitar amps use a Russian tube as well. Thomas mentioned he bought a massive quantity of these tubes, but how long will that stock of tubes last, and he has his Amp X set to debut this year so I wonder how this war might affect his products.


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Read that article Bostjan posted earlier. I think it will be eye opening. It was for me in some ways. Most solid state guitar amps that have been produced have been budget amps. Not built with the same care and engineering that a good tube amp has. From what that article says, there’s virtually no difference in actual performance other than transitioning between no gain and having gain. Transistor transition slower because they have higher headroom. You’ve just gotta find the sweet spot in a well built SS amp.
> 
> As far as boats are concerned it’s still an active circuit affecting your sound via solid state components. Tube amps also have plenty solid state components in them. Old Marshalls apparently hard clip in the power section based on that article. Again, it’s worth checking out.



I'm not saying that a boost isn't that, but it's still absolutely not the same as deriving the whole of the tone from a SS pre/power section; it's really just evident if you sit and play with a boosted tube amp versus a SS amp. I still wouldn't call it a healthy amount of solid state just by running a boost, because that implies it's more significant than it is. I guess it doesn't matter because in the end if it gets you a good tone then it's fine, it just seems strange to think about it that way IMO. 

Anyway, I'm all for developing SS tech, but I don't think it's correct to discount the qualities of tube amps that people may find attractive, even if they are qualities that you may not personally look for, ya know?


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## torchlord (Mar 14, 2022)

laxu said:


> Something like parametric mids where you can sweep the center frequency adds another pot so that's very little extra complication for the user but the actual circuitry to make it happen gets more complex for the builder. Or even something as useful as separate high and low mids pots is rarely seen in amps even though that adds a ton of flexibility without being hard to understand.
> 
> But manufacturers don't make these because they don't sell.


One of the reasons I liked my Rocktron Pirannha preamp was because you could change the mid-frequency. I wished my current amp had that feature. I should have never sold it .


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## Thaeon (Mar 14, 2022)

Choop said:


> I'm not saying that a boost isn't that, but it's still absolutely not the same as deriving the whole of the tone from a SS pre/power section; it's really just evident if you sit and play with a boosted tube amp versus a SS amp. I still wouldn't call it a healthy amount of solid state just by running a boost, because that implies it's more significant than it is. I guess it doesn't matter because in the end if it gets you a good tone then it's fine, it just seems strange to think about it that way IMO.
> 
> Anyway, I'm all for developing SS tech, but I don't think it's correct to discount the qualities of tube amps that people may find attractive, even if they are qualities that you may not personally look for, ya know?




Dude, seriously, read the thing Bostjan posted. It basically invalidates anything either of us were previously saying. Really. It’s a good read, and really short.


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## Choop (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Dude, seriously, read the thing Bostjan posted. It basically invalidates anything either of us were previously saying. Really. It’s a good read, and really short.



I'm not sure how it invalidates that using a boost in front of a tube amp is definitely not practically the same as just using a SS amp full-stop, because it's just literally not that. I did say that I think it depends on the power section on whether an amp feels/sounds good. It's important!

"If someone asked me why tube guitar amps sound better than solid state amps my possible answer would be the following. Professional tube guitar amps are designed for professional musicians while solid state guitar amps with tube emulation are designed for the mass market. The majority of solid state amps are intentionally "under-designed", so the differences are hidden in the design and not in the technology used."

Sounds like a conspiracy theory, but sort of true, it's kind of just a consequence of how much less expensive it is to create a functional SS amp that sounds decent enough to charge money for. This kind of mindset doesn't really apply to the earliest tube amp designs that still sound great even today, though. If it means that tube amps in general benefit from being better designed then so be it.


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## Estilo (Mar 14, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Most of us High Gain players rely on a pretty cold and undistorted power section. Our 'tone' comes from the preamp mostly.



I will digress from the topic here. This is a point I feel isn't emphasised enough. I got out of the hobby for a good many years, came back during WFH boom. I wasn't well-educated on amps prior. I had to piece the information using snippets across the various forums (since Google is USELESS as a search engine now, and progressively getting worse) that for high gain applications we need CLEAN power amp stages. Never mind also that textbook guitar speak is preamp distortion = bad power amp distortion = good, definitely a Procrustean bed approach there. The recent years have seen waves of lunchbox amps geared at the high gain crowd, which makes no sense. If anything, lunchboxes should be catered to the blues lawyers who need power tube breakup at lower watts and high gain people should stick to big watt amps with master volumes. 

I'd also say suck it to smart-asses (plenty on Reddit) who say the 5150s/6505s are too much amp for home use. They ARE the amps for home use because the power section does nothing to the tone. The master volume taper issue can be solved by adding a volume control to the FX loop.


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## Emperoff (Mar 15, 2022)

Good read @bostjan


Thaeon said:


> Dude, seriously, read the thing Bostjan posted. It basically invalidates anything either of us were previously saying. Really. It’s a good read, and really short.



I think you are again looking for something to invalidate other's opinions. I've read the article, and my stand hasn't changed in the slightest. And it surely won't with current market offerings.

As mentioned, being a tube snob when you use pedals to get your drive going is quite a paradox. Either a totally clean amp with a distortion pedal, or a tube amp boosted to hell and back. There was a lot of heat about the EVH Iconic having a SS input stage instead of a tube. I mean, first gain stage of every 5150 is SS as well (you know, the TubeScreamer that pretty much every single one of you puts in front of it ).

In fact, most of the modern metal guitar tones everyone is looking for nowadays would be more easily eachieved with SS gear. And I never understood why people insist on convoluted and expensive ways of reaching that goal.

I don't have anything against SS tech. As mentioned I have some SS preamps that are super convenient specially for pedalboard use with integrated power supplies. But for my actual rigs, I just don't use boosts or distortion pedals. I love the "give" and sag of a tube amp, and SS just doesn't give me that. At least nothing I've ever tried. Same deal with alnico vs. ceramic pickups, actives, etc. I just don't like that "stiffness" in my tone. If I would I'd be rocking the KSR Ceres or the ISP Theta onstage instead of my other preamps.

Guess I'm on same boat as @sevenfoxes.


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## Thaeon (Mar 15, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Good read @bostjan
> 
> 
> I think you are again looking for something to invalidate other's opinions. I've read the article, and my stand hasn't changed in the slightest. And it surely won't with current market offerings.
> ...



I’m not trying invalidate anything. Rather validate that a well built SS amp is every bit the equivalent of a tube amp. Assuming all things going into it are the same. Quality components, quality time, and quality engineering. The fact is, that most SS amps don’t get that. But then they’re compared to tube amps that have. Not a fair comparison. And that’s used as a reason to completely discount solid state amps as a professional option, and make claims that amps like the Waza are overpriced. Hard sell, maybe. But not overpriced. I’m recommending the guy look at the article because after referencing it, he’s still talking about the ‘myths’ about tube designs as if they were still facts. I even admitted that I was incorrect about some of my assumptions after reading the article. It would seem that the two designs really have little that is different, and much of the tonal things most people point to are due to circuit design and not component type. I thought there were more differences. Don’t know why you think I’m trying to invalidate anyone, I’m trying to err on the side of data.


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## laxu (Mar 15, 2022)

Estilo said:


> I will digress from the topic here. This is a point I feel isn't emphasised enough. I got out of the hobby for a good many years, came back during WFH boom. I wasn't well-educated on amps prior. I had to piece the information using snippets across the various forums (since Google is USELESS as a search engine now, and progressively getting worse) that for high gain applications we need CLEAN power amp stages. Never mind also that textbook guitar speak is preamp distortion = bad power amp distortion = good, definitely a Procrustean bed approach there. The recent years have seen waves of lunchbox amps geared at the high gain crowd, which makes no sense. If anything, lunchboxes should be catered to the blues lawyers who need power tube breakup at lower watts and high gain people should stick to big watt amps with master volumes.
> 
> I'd also say suck it to smart-asses (plenty on Reddit) who say the 5150s/6505s are too much amp for home use. They ARE the amps for home use because the power section does nothing to the tone. The master volume taper issue can be solved by adding a volume control to the FX loop.


Saying the power section does nothing is very far off the mark. Try running that 5150 preamp from the fx send into a flat solid-state poweramp and it is nowhere even close the same thing. Just because the poweramp runs clean does not mean the design of the poweramp, the transformers and powertubes aren't important factors in shaping the final output. How that poweramp reacts with the speakers is a huge part of what actually makes tube amps tick. You can replace the preamp easier with digital modeling or solid-state than you can replace the tube poweramp.


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## ATRguitar91 (Mar 15, 2022)

laxu said:


> You can replace the preamp easier with digital modeling or solid-state than you can replace the tube poweramp.


100% this. The poweramp section is really where tubes shine. I can run my Tight Metal Pro into the poweramp of a 6505 and match the preamps almost exactly, feel and all. But trying to get the TMP to match the 6505 into a solid state poweramp is a different ballgame.


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## Thaeon (Mar 15, 2022)

ATRguitar91 said:


> 100% this. The poweramp section is really where tubes shine. I can run my Tight Metal Pro into the poweramp of a 6505 and match the preamps almost exactly, feel and all. But trying to get the TMP to match the 6505 into a solid state poweramp is a different ballgame.




I'm not an electronics engineer, but that could be multiple variables as one tube power amp will not react the same as another tube power amp. They aren't all the same circuit. There will be variables like the different transformers, how the input from the preamp is taken (return jack of a head is different from the input jack of a power amp), where the return or power amp in is located in the circuit between the preamp and the power amp. Input resistance may be a factor. There's more on the back end than just the tubes. Some stuff I've read speculates that the transformer itself has more affect on the tone and feel than the tubes themselves do. I don't know. I'd like to see someone set something up that does a like for like comparison with the ability to cross pollenate the different parts of amps. Really well built SS pre (not modeler). Really well built SS power. Really well built tube pre and power amp. Same cab. Same mics. It would be fascinating to see that kind of comparison.


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## Emperoff (Mar 15, 2022)

ATRguitar91 said:


> 100% this. The poweramp section is really where tubes shine. I can run my Tight Metal Pro into the poweramp of a 6505 and match the preamps almost exactly, feel and all. But trying to get the TMP to match the 6505 into a solid state poweramp is a different ballgame.



Fully agree on this. I used to gig with an AMT D2 preamp into a tube combo and did the job just fine. In the end I switched because I needed more sounds out of it. To me a tube poweramp is more important than a tube preamp for the "tube feel" or whatever you want to call it.


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## Shask (Mar 15, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I'm not an electronics engineer, but that could be multiple variables as one tube power amp will not react the same as another tube power amp. They aren't all the same circuit. There will be variables like the different transformers, how the input from the preamp is taken (return jack of a head is different from the input jack of a power amp), where the return or power amp in is located in the circuit between the preamp and the power amp. Input resistance may be a factor. There's more on the back end than just the tubes. Some stuff I've read speculates that the transformer itself has more affect on the tone and feel than the tubes themselves do. I don't know. I'd like to see someone set something up that does a like for like comparison with the ability to cross pollenate the different parts of amps. Really well built SS pre (not modeler). Really well built SS power. Really well built tube pre and power amp. Same cab. Same mics. It would be fascinating to see that kind of comparison.


It's the power Amp/ feedback / OT reactance interaction I mentioned earlier in this thread.

The frequency response and compression / dynamics change dynamically in a tube power Amp, and they don't with most solid state poweramps.


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## c7spheres (Mar 15, 2022)

Off topic but I never looked into class H amps before. I saw something with Buck from ISP talking about the mini pedal board amp being class a/b but they do something to it and it becomes class H so it works good for guitar feel or something. It's a variable power rail basically.
Anyways looking at class H it seems to be promising and just reading on it seems much better choise than class D pulse wave modulation, but also potentially an upgrade to class a/b in terms of power efficiency and reliability maybe, not that anything is wrong with class a/b or class D, but class D seems better suited for non-guitar amp applications except in cost savings maybe. Speaking of ISP I've been looking really hard at that MS Theta Pro.


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## bostjan (Mar 15, 2022)

Class H (also class G for that matter) amplifiers are generally quite a bit more complicated than class A/B, and that means a lot more cost. I don't see it catching on much in the guitar world, seeing as how class A/B is already over 50% efficient at audio frequencies. I could see it being more important with PA gear, trying to get something that is more suited for high power and where cost and weight are a little less of an issue, and maybe it could eventually bleed over from there somehow. But first we'd have to get some sort of piece of gear that uses these principles to fall into the hands of someone that musicians actually care about enough to pay attention to their gear. :/


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## Bearitone (Mar 15, 2022)

ATRguitar91 said:


> 100% this. The poweramp section is really where tubes shine. I can run my Tight Metal Pro into the poweramp of a 6505 and match the preamps almost exactly, feel and all. But trying to get the TMP to match the 6505 into a solid state poweramp is a different ballgame.


100%
I played strictly solidstate for years, trying a lot of preamp pedals and poweramps and came to the same conclusion.

Solidstate poweramps just aren’t there yet and they never will be (imo) until they find a way to emulate both a presence AND a resonance circuits that the better tube power amps have. Not a single company has ventured to make something like this. The closest I heard was the Orange Pedal Baby 100 but, it was still far off

But, as far as preamps go? We’ve been there for over a decade. I’ll take my TMPro and a few other preamp PEDALS over boutique high gain tube RACK preamps.


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## Estilo (Mar 15, 2022)

laxu said:


> Saying the power section does nothing is very far off the mark. Try running that 5150 preamp from the fx send into a flat solid-state poweramp and it is nowhere even close the same thing. Just because the poweramp runs clean does not mean the design of the poweramp, the transformers and powertubes aren't important factors in shaping the final output. How that poweramp reacts with the speakers is a huge part of what actually makes tube amps tick. You can replace the preamp easier with digital modeling or solid-state than you can replace the tube poweramp.



Fair point I might've gone overboard there, but it doesn't invalidate my main point on power tube distortion for the different applications. Didn't mean to say power tubes aren't necessary in the equation, if I did I'd have sold the 6505+ and went with the Mooer preamp into pedal power amp route. I did have an Orange hybrid lunchbox and the feel is indeed different.


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## LostTheTone (Mar 16, 2022)

laxu said:


> Saying the power section does nothing is very far off the mark. Try running that 5150 preamp from the fx send into a flat solid-state poweramp and it is nowhere even close the same thing. Just because the poweramp runs clean does not mean the design of the poweramp, the transformers and powertubes aren't important factors in shaping the final output. How that poweramp reacts with the speakers is a huge part of what actually makes tube amps tick. You can replace the preamp easier with digital modeling or solid-state than you can replace the tube poweramp.



Sure, but it depends whether you want a perfectly recreated 5150 sound, or whether you just want a good guitar tone. There's nothing wrong with going after that perfect, classic sound but if you just want good tone then you can absolutely get that without a tube power stage. 

Its the same thing about having this or that exact set of speakers in a cab. I like Greenbacks myself, in slant faced cabs, and nothing else will quite give you that same sound. But you can still sound great with V30s in a straight cab.


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## laxu (Mar 16, 2022)

LostTheTone said:


> Sure, but it depends whether you want a perfectly recreated 5150 sound, or whether you just want a good guitar tone. There's nothing wrong with going after that perfect, classic sound but if you just want good tone then you can absolutely get that without a tube power stage.
> 
> Its the same thing about having this or that exact set of speakers in a cab. I like Greenbacks myself, in slant faced cabs, and nothing else will quite give you that same sound. But you can still sound great with V30s in a straight cab.


Sure, as long as you like the end result it's all good. 

I don't see myself ever buying a cab with V30s again if I can help it. I just don't like them much. Currently using 10" Greenbacks and a 12" Gold.


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## CanserDYI (Mar 16, 2022)

I always felt tubes FELT better to play, but recorded through mics I can't tell the difference. I agree with @Emperoff, as I love the feel tubes give me, the responsiveness to my picking, it's just a very satisfying experience. Put that on a recording with a great sounding SS amp, I'm not sure I could tell the difference and I feel, as usual, that the gear is for the player, not the audience. Comfort and satisfying playing lead to the most expressive and inspired playing, leading to a better sound overall, as the player is in their comfort zone.

Kind of like a compressor pedal, explaining it to a non guitarist is pretty hard, and while I think a non guitarist could hear the differences before and after the pedal is introduced, it's much more apparent for the dude with the guitar in his hands.

I'm all for good SS amps, but yet to have one wow me while playing it more than tubes/digital modeling into FRFR.


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## Thaeon (Mar 16, 2022)

laxu said:


> Sure, as long as you like the end result it's all good.
> 
> I don't see myself ever buying a cab with V30s again if I can help it. I just don't like them much. Currently using 10" Greenbacks and a 12" Gold.


This. More than anything, this. If you like it at the end, who really cares. I'm a snob about tones that have been overused. I know that about myself, and I'm okay with it. Its a personal thing. If it inspires you to pick up your guitar and play it, then its a good thing. The only issue I really have in conversations like this is the cork sniffery when judging the equipment itself. "X tube is better than Y tube", "Tubes sound better than SS, its just facts", "Mahogany is the god wood for guitars", etc. These are all subjective opinions that largely depend on the wants and needs of the player. If you notice you play better on something, you should probably pay attention and stick to that thing. There's definitely less give in most SS designs. But some can sag too. There are pedals with sag controls that allow you to dial in how much you want.. 

I'm pretty satisfied where I'm at with what I have. Would like a second amp, but will likely get another Solid State one. Might eventually get another Budda. Still probably my favorite amp I've ever owned. Even over the Diezel Herbert. Though I'd probably get the 80 watt version. And pre Peavey.


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## Voodoo Marshall (Mar 16, 2022)

Making the differentiation between a solid state amp and a modeling amp using digital/solid state technology. Here's something new and something old:

NEW: Bogner Mini. Solid state and sounds great (yes, I know that rhymes). Has the mids/high-mids sizzle and presences that a lot of solid state standalone amps don't have. The 30 watts is loud enough for rehearsal (and I play with the loudest snare drum drummer in the world) and just loud enough for gigs in small-medium clubs. Will work anywhere if SS is good and guitars can get into monitors and/or side-fills.

OLD: Tech 21 Trademark 60. Built off the very solid Tech 21 SansAmp and sounds great, if a little more squashed than the Bogner in the heaver side of things. Channel switch, Fx loop. Also gets some really solid Fender type tones as well as Vox AC chime-y tones on its clean side.

REFERENCE POINT: Main amp is a early 80s Marshall JCM 800 50 watt w/ no gain mod, so it's actually fairly clean relative to high-gain shit out there (that's what pedals are for). All amps generally through 2x12 Marshall cab w/ V30s. Also have a 1x12 Marshall w/ V30 and 4x12 Marshall 1960A with G12T-75s (either it's too big or I'm too old, pick one). Often use the Trademark's 1x12 combo speaker if using that amp as my clean amp or with the Mel9 in my switching set up.

OH YEA: Almost forgot about my Joyo Zombie which is a good sounding amp too. Not sure if the pre-amp tube takes it out of play for solid state amps.


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## Emperoff (Mar 16, 2022)

Voodoo Marshall said:


> OH YEA: Almost forgot about my Joyo Zombie which is a good sounding amp too. Not sure if the pre-amp tube takes it out of play for solid state amps.



The tube on Joyo amps its running at 50V instead of the >250V they run on actual tube amps. It's also not the first gain stage either, so maybe 80% SS, 20% tube? 

They do make a difference, though. I buddy has one and we were tube rolling for fun and the differences in tone were way bigger than we expected.


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## dshea19 (Mar 17, 2022)

Anyone have an opinion on the Black Spirit series from Hughes & Kettner?


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## Thaeon (Mar 17, 2022)

I took a minute to redial my Waza head at band practice last night based on what the article Bostjan posted said about how SS amps ca be made to sound better. It changed the whole EQ of the amp. Warmer would be an understatement. I had to redial in the EQ on all the channels. Its got a little more of the 'chug' factor. It sounds killer, and the feel is close enough to a tube amp that you could actually forget you're on solid state. Its still REALLY tight, but it will sound big and round too if you want it to.


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## wheresthefbomb (Mar 17, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I took a minute to redial my Waza head at band practice last night based on what the article Bostjan posted said about how SS amps ca be made to sound better. It changed the whole EQ of the amp. Warmer would be an understatement. I had to redial in the EQ on all the channels. Its got a little more of the 'chug' factor. It sounds killer, and the feel is close enough to a tube amp that you could actually forget you're on solid state. Its still REALLY tight, but it will sound big and round too if you want it to.



It all comes back to advice I saw years ago on a fb group: "turn knobs with your ears, not your eyes" 

(or your expectations or anything else that's not your ears)

If I didn't know my amps so well I don't think I'd know the difference, except when I'm trying to produce feedback. SS can do it but it's a lot "stiffer," more unpleasant and harder to get musical overtones. Tube feedback is much more musical and reactive to where i'm standing and how I hold the guitar. The SS amps are better at other things. Overall, not better/worse, just different.

I have my preferences but more and more the way I see it these days is: "amps are amps." Tube, SS, as long as it's got the power and a decent set of drivers in front of it, I know from experience that I can dial in something that will work.


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## Thaeon (Mar 17, 2022)

wheresthefbomb said:


> It all comes back to advice I saw years ago on a fb group: "turn knobs with your ears, not your eyes"
> 
> (or your expectations or anything else that's not your ears)
> 
> ...


Exactly.

I know that I can get something usable out of just about anything. My playing is probably the biggest influence on my tone. I like how 'fast' SS is. There are aspects of tube amps that I appreciate as well. Like how 'big' they can sound. However, for me, that can translate into unfocused or dominating in a mix. I write for a band that has two guitars, sometimes synths, and drums. And we all try to only take up an equal amount of the sound spectrum. I haven't noticed unorganic sounding feedback from my amp. And I use a lot of it. I may just hear it differently though. The point is. It works for me just as well as a high end tube amp and I'm just as inspired by it.


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## Shask (Mar 17, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I took a minute to redial my Waza head at band practice last night based on what the article Bostjan posted said about how SS amps ca be made to sound better. It changed the whole EQ of the amp. Warmer would be an understatement. I had to redial in the EQ on all the channels. Its got a little more of the 'chug' factor. It sounds killer, and the feel is close enough to a tube amp that you could actually forget you're on solid state. Its still REALLY tight, but it will sound big and round too if you want it to.


I am curious how you redialed it. I dont have a Waza, but I do have a Katana, and curious what you did overall.


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## Estilo (Mar 18, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I'm pretty satisfied where I'm at with what I have.


Heh why wouldn't you be, you've got an 8 string multiscale Oni!


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## Bevo (Mar 18, 2022)

Great thread and information!

I have had most of the popular tube heads and while I loved them all with 6505 my favourite I just didn’t use the right.
In the right setting where you can get some volume to put the tubes and speakers under load they sound amazing. 95% of the time I could not do that, even 25 watt tubes are super loud.

I picked up a Pod Go and a Headrush 12 inch FRFR while I had my 5150 with 2-12.
Dialing in a matching tone with the pod I was really happy. It’s been a year now and I’m fully digital.

The SS and modeling stuff is so good right now!
Saying that, if a 6505 came up I would get it even if I use it once or twice a year..

All that said I play at home and jam 3-4 times a year..


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## bostjan (Mar 18, 2022)

I wish I had a free-time cheat code. This thread is making me want to get back into experimenting with transistor amps again and I clearly have no time and no money to spend on building a dozen prototypes that all fail for different reasons. Maybe someone else out there is going all-in, though.

I feel like a high-gain, all transistor (not digital a la Helix/Kemper/Fractal or even Katana) preamp could be super useful for generating tight metal tones. But, I feel like the hurdles are that a) digital amps can already generate tight metal tones and the trade-offs are considered insignificant, b) the components used to make good transistor preamps keep getting discontinued, as discrete components are slowly fading away in favour of cheap integrated chips, and, most of all c) there's just no money in any of this endeavour.

Yeah, c, is huge, because, in the 21st century, everything is slowly becoming a subscription. Just wait until your next amp is powered by some firmware that you never even own, but rather have to pay for monthly. Maybe it won't happen, maybe it will, but, if amps are made of transistors instead of computers, it'll make the transition to subscription service much more difficult.


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## Thaeon (Mar 18, 2022)

Shask said:


> I am curious how you redialed it. I dont have a Waza, but I do have a Katana, and curious what you did overall.



Cranked the master and used the channel volumes to keep it reasonable. I doubt that you'll get similar results with a Katana, since its a digital amp, and the Waza is not. But I could be wrong. I have been many times before. That said, adjusting just that tames the top end and made the low mids feel a bit more familiar if you're a tube amp player. Still abrasively tight. But gave it a bit of that chunk that we guitar players tend to like a lot. Felt like my speaker was having to work a little harder.



bostjan said:


> I wish I had a free-time cheat code. This thread is making me want to get back into experimenting with transistor amps again and I clearly have no time and no money to spend on building a dozen prototypes that all fail for different reasons. Maybe someone else out there is going all-in, though.
> 
> I feel like a high-gain, all transistor (not digital a la Helix/Kemper/Fractal or even Katana) preamp could be super useful for generating tight metal tones. But, I feel like the hurdles are that a) digital amps can already generate tight metal tones and the trade-offs are considered insignificant, b) the components used to make good transistor preamps keep getting discontinued, as discrete components are slowly fading away in favour of cheap integrated chips, and, most of all c) there's just no money in any of this endeavour.
> 
> Yeah, c, is huge, because, in the 21st century, everything is slowly becoming a subscription. Just wait until your next amp is powered by some firmware that you never even own, but rather have to pay for monthly. Maybe it won't happen, maybe it will, but, if amps are made of transistors instead of computers, it'll make the transition to subscription service much more difficult.



You bring up a good point. Software still requires a lot of upkeep and maintenance to stay up with current hardware. And developers gotta get paid. The Sub model is the new paradigm in most digital spaces now. Why wouldn't it come knocking at the guitar player door sooner or later. I like the Transistor based stuff because its so reliable and doesn't require the same maintenance as a tube amp. Even buying an expensive one, the cost of ownership over time diminishes quite a bit. Actual necessary repairs if that ever happens could be expensive...


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## Thaeon (Mar 18, 2022)

Estilo said:


> Heh why wouldn't you be, you've got an 8 string multiscale Oni!



A fair point. I try to remind myself of that from time to time. My dream guitar is literally at an arms reach on any given evening.


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## Tree (Mar 18, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Cranked the master and used the channel volumes to keep it reasonable. I doubt that you'll get similar results with a Katana, since its a digital amp, and the Waza is not. But I could be wrong. I have been many times before. That said, adjusting just that tames the top end and made the low mids feel a bit more familiar if you're a tube amp player. Still abrasively tight. But gave it a bit of that chunk that we guitar players tend to like a lot. Felt like my speaker was having to work a little harder.


as a former Katana owner I can confirm this works quite well with that line of amps as well. At least for the clean, or more classic models. Especially for edge of breakup style tones. 

The difference was debatable on high gain, but I felt like it helped with dynamics quite a bit. The “feel” was definitely more akin to using a tube amp. 

The same applies to the newer generation of the Yamaha THRs. I’ve never used the first generation though.


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## Shask (Mar 18, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> Cranked the master and used the channel volumes to keep it reasonable. I doubt that you'll get similar results with a Katana, since its a digital amp, and the Waza is not. But I could be wrong. I have been many times before. That said, adjusting just that tames the top end and made the low mids feel a bit more familiar if you're a tube amp player. Still abrasively tight. But gave it a bit of that chunk that we guitar players tend to like a lot. Felt like my speaker was having to work a little harder.



I believe the Katana is just a Digital implementation of the Waza, or at least inpired by, or something, lol. They both have analog Class AB poweramps though.

That is interesting, because there is a lot of the advice out there about the Katana that says the same thing. Crank the master and lower the channel volume for the most "tubey" sound. I beleive that came from a Boss representative years ago. However, I always kind of thought it sounded fuller for high gain keeping the channel master around 1 oclock, and then raising the master as high as needed. I will have to play with it again though.


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## Thaeon (Mar 18, 2022)

Tree said:


> as a former Katana owner I can confirm this works quite well with that line of amps as well. At least for the clean, or more classic models. Especially for edge of breakup style tones.
> 
> The difference was debatable on high gain, but I felt like it helped with dynamics quite a bit. The “feel” was definitely more akin to using a tube amp.
> 
> The same applies to the newer generation of the Yamaha THRs. I’ve never used the first generation though.



I have a first gen THR. Great amp. Really fun to play with. It sits on the end table next to my couch. I've written several songs on it.



Shask said:


> I believe the Katana is just a Digital implementation of the Waza, or at least inpired by, or something, lol. They both have analog Class AB poweramps though.
> 
> That is interesting, because there is a lot of the advice out there about the Katana that says the same thing. Crank the master and lower the channel volume for the most "tubey" sound. I beleive that came from a Boss representative years ago. However, I always kind of thought it sounded fuller for high gain keeping the channel master around 1 oclock, and then raising the master as high as needed. I will have to play with it again though.



It sort of is, yes. The components aren't as nice. The build quality inside the Waza amp is really solid. Clean. Like a rack server. Its not super quiet when cranked. But what amp is... Regardless, its based on the same principles but with a digital preamp. The Waza Pre is transistors. I'm actually considering picking up a few of the modules for it that revoice the channels. Just for some variety. I think that the Roland Cube Modules will work in it as well. There are one or two of those that I'm interested in. But mostly I use the built in sounds. I literally love the thing.


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## Emperoff (Mar 19, 2022)

Shask said:


> I believe the Katana is just a Digital implementation of the Waza, or at least inpired by, or something, lol. They both have analog Class AB poweramps though.



Nope.

The Katana is basically a GT100/GT-1 with a SS poweramp. You can (could?) access all GT100 amps and FX through the editor. Which is funny, since everyone always bashed Boss ampsims but for some reason people seem to like the Katana. My guess is that maybe most people never tried a GT-100 into an actual amp? The Waza is an entirely different animal.

I just came from a couple of gigs where I used a GT-100 straight into the poweramp of a small 20W tube combo. I run a high end cut at 6,3khz into ALL my presets, so maybe you can try that out on the Katana somehow?


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## Shask (Mar 19, 2022)

Emperoff said:


> Nope.
> 
> The Katana is basically a GT100/GT-1 with a SS poweramp. You can (could?) access all GT100 amps and FX through the editor. Which is funny, since everyone always bashed Boss ampsims but for some reason people seem to like the Katana. My guess is that maybe most people never tried a GT-100 into an actual amp? The Waza is an entirely different animal.
> 
> I just came from a couple of gigs where I used a GT-100 straight into the poweramp of a small 20W tube combo. I run a high end cut at 6,3khz into ALL my presets, so maybe you can try that out on the Katana somehow?



Yeah, I know it is based on the GT-1 also, but there are some sounds that say they were inspired by the Waza, like the Brown Channel. I also think the Power Amp section has some design similarities, from what I have read. I think they are the same idea, but the Waza is discrete, where the Katana is a single chip? Something like that. I remember a lot of talk about it back when it came out.

Yeah, on my Katana sounds, I use the EQ to boost the low end massively, and then cut the high end a lot, around 6 or 8khz. All of the sounds I have made on that amp are based around that.

Last night I spent some time playing the Katana. I messed around with the Channel Volume vs. the Master Volume. It has been a few years since I messed with it, and had my presets saved with the Channel Volume higher. I do think the low end seemed a little fatter and fuller with the Master up higher. Maybe about 50%, then a real low Channel Volume. It also helps to always use 100W mode. Next time I hook it up to the computer I will probably tweak that. I don't use the Katana a ton, but it was fun to play with it for a night. I also had some fun splitting the signal off the Effects Loop and sending a signal to a Lexicon MPX-1, and then a Matrix GT1000FX, into a second cab. That added some bigness as well.


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## Thaeon (Mar 19, 2022)

Shask said:


> Yeah, I know it is based on the GT-1 also, but there are some sounds that say they were inspired by the Waza, like the Brown Channel. I also think the Power Amp section has some design similarities, from what I have read. I think they are the same idea, but the Waza is discrete, where the Katana is a single chip? Something like that. I remember a lot of talk about it back when it came out.
> 
> Yeah, on my Katana sounds, I use the EQ to boost the low end massively, and then cut the high end a lot, around 6 or 8khz. All of the sounds I have made on that amp are based around that.
> 
> Last night I spent some time playing the Katana. I messed around with the Channel Volume vs. the Master Volume. It has been a few years since I messed with it, and had my presets saved with the Channel Volume higher. I do think the low end seemed a little fatter and fuller with the Master up higher. Maybe about 50%, then a real low Channel Volume. It also helps to always use 100W mode. Next time I hook it up to the computer I will probably tweak that. I don't use the Katana a ton, but it was fun to play with it for a night. I also had some fun splitting the signal off the Effects Loop and sending a signal to a Lexicon MPX-1, and then a Matrix GT1000FX, into a second cab. That added some bigness as well.




Cool. Good to know some of the functionality is similar across the product line. I was pretty surprised at how much just cranking the master change the tone. My drummer heard the difference. So it’s not insignificant.


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## Estilo (Mar 20, 2022)

Thaeon said:


> I have a first gen THR. Great amp. Really fun to play with. It sits on the end table next to my couch. I've written several songs on it.


Which watt Gen 1 do you have? How do you like the tones on it compared to more serious amps including your Waza? I've read the THRs are essentially processed tones, like preamp, power amp, cab sim and IR put together and that's why they sound good despite th 3" or so speakers in them?


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## laxu (Mar 21, 2022)

bostjan said:


> I feel like a high-gain, all transistor (not digital a la Helix/Kemper/Fractal or even Katana) preamp could be super useful for generating tight metal tones. But, I feel like the hurdles are that a) digital amps can already generate tight metal tones and the trade-offs are considered insignificant, b) the components used to make good transistor preamps keep getting discontinued, as discrete components are slowly fading away in favour of cheap integrated chips, and, most of all c) there's just no money in any of this endeavour.
> 
> Yeah, c, is huge, because, in the 21st century, everything is slowly becoming a subscription. Just wait until your next amp is powered by some firmware that you never even own, but rather have to pay for monthly. Maybe it won't happen, maybe it will, but, if amps are made of transistors instead of computers, it'll make the transition to subscription service much more difficult.


C is the big one. There are some valiant efforts by BluGuitar, Quilter and Hughes And Kettner but mostly it's digital or tube amps. The tube amps most people buy (cheaper Marshalls, Oranges, Fenders, Vox, PRS MT15 and so on) are cheaper than many of the analog solid-state/hybrid brands mentioned.

While I don't see modeling as a subscription coming a thing in the hardware realm, paid DLC might rear its ugly head as everything gets more expensive so maybe it's no longer financially viable to support an Axe-Fx IV firmware development with hardware sales alone. In the plugin world subscription and DLC based things have been going on a long time and we will be seeing more of them in the future as more people want amp sim plugin suites over individual ones.


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## Shask (Mar 21, 2022)

laxu said:


> C is the big one. There are some valiant efforts by BluGuitar, Quilter and Hughes And Kettner but mostly it's digital or tube amps. The tube amps most people buy (cheaper Marshalls, Oranges, Fenders, Vox, PRS MT15 and so on) are cheaper than many of the analog solid-state/hybrid brands mentioned.
> 
> While I don't see modeling as a subscription coming a thing in the hardware realm, paid DLC might rear its ugly head as everything gets more expensive so maybe it's no longer financially viable to support an Axe-Fx IV firmware development with hardware sales alone. In the plugin world subscription and DLC based things have been going on a long time and we will be seeing more of them in the future as more people want amp sim plugin suites over individual ones.


In Hardware they have those little plug in capsule things, like Roland uses for the Waza and Blues amps.


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## Thaeon (Mar 21, 2022)

Estilo said:


> Which watt Gen 1 do you have? How do you like the tones on it compared to more serious amps including your Waza? I've read the THRs are essentially processed tones, like preamp, power amp, cab sim and IR put together and that's why they sound good despite th 3" or so speakers in them?



The 20 Watt. It sounds really good. It flubs on big lows like you would expect if you don't alter the EQ any. But otherwise, they're great. Feels plenty like any tube amp I've used. Just... Small. I think its basically a tiny FRFR with digital modeling built in. My 8 gives it a little trouble unless I dip the bass like I said. But for living room jamming/practicing/writing, or learning something off of a music streaming app or better Capo, you really can't ask for a better option. Its obviously not going to sound like a Herbert. But its generic enough that it gets close to most of the things you'd want to use it for.



laxu said:


> C is the big one. There are some valiant efforts by BluGuitar, Quilter and Hughes And Kettner but mostly it's digital or tube amps. The tube amps most people buy (cheaper Marshalls, Oranges, Fenders, Vox, PRS MT15 and so on) are cheaper than many of the analog solid-state/hybrid brands mentioned.
> 
> While I don't see modeling as a subscription coming a thing in the hardware realm, paid DLC might rear its ugly head as everything gets more expensive so maybe it's no longer financially viable to support an Axe-Fx IV firmware development with hardware sales alone. In the plugin world subscription and DLC based things have been going on a long time and we will be seeing more of them in the future as more people want amp sim plugin suites over individual ones.



Money is definitely the big issue here. Every time someone comes up with a really great Solid State idea for guitar players (not bass), guitar players just won't have it. So it doesn't sell. Yet bass tone keeps getting better and better and what do most of them use? Guitar players are as much in love with the idea of what a guitar set up should look like, include, etc., that they quit letting their ears and hands tell them they like. I think that we need to stop billing solid state as a tube replacement or even an alternative. Its just another sound/feel. A different tool to work with.



Shask said:


> In Hardware they have those little plug in capsule things, like Roland uses for the Waza and Blues amps.



Yeah, I may pick up one or two of those. Though I don't really want the ones designed for the Waza. I want the ones designed for the Blues Cube. EJ and Robben Ford both have killer tone. I want those ones. But in the Waza.


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## GreatGreen (Mar 22, 2022)

I agree with @Thaeon. I think solid state amps have such an established reputation as "cheap practice beginner amps that use tech nobody would dream of putting in anything but toys for poor bedwetting babies on foodstamps" that most guitar players wouldn't entertain the thought of using them without some serious PR campaign that could basically reverse decades of market perception. And it would be a precarious road too. If any notions of "affordable" are pushed, guitar players are instantly going to hear "cheap, and worse than tubes or modeling." It would have to be 100% focused on tone and "built for the professional touring musician." It's going to be a long road before they gain any real traction for professional applications.

I've said before that I would LOVE for pro level solid state amps to become as popular and available as anything else. Reliability, less inherent cost, sound consistency, no component warmup time, but I just don't think the industry is primed for it. For the foreseeable future, it's going to be either tubes or modeling. I hope I'm wrong, and that multiple companies come out with kick ass solid state amps that compete with tubes, but I just don't see it happening any time soon.


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## Thaeon (Mar 22, 2022)

GreatGreen said:


> I agree with @Thaeon. I think solid state amps have such an established reputation as "cheap practice beginner amps that use tech nobody would dream of putting in anything but toys for poor bedwetting babies on foodstamps" that most guitar players wouldn't entertain the thought of using them without some serious PR campaign that could basically reverse decades of market perception. And it would be a precarious road too. If any notions of "affordable" are pushed, guitar players are instantly going to hear "cheap, and worse than tubes or modeling." It would have to be 100% focused on tone and "built for the professional touring musician." It's going to be a long road before they gain any real traction for professional applications.
> 
> I've said before that I would LOVE for pro level solid state amps to become as popular and available as anything else. Reliability, less inherent cost, sound consistency, no component warmup time, but I just don't think the industry is primed for it. For the foreseeable future, it's going to be either tubes or modeling. I hope I'm wrong, and that multiple companies come out with kick ass solid state amps that compete with tubes, but I just don't see it happening any time soon.



There's already some killer SS designs out there. The Sunn Beta lead is a killer option. So is the Waza. The Blues Cube. Fender's new SS remake line. It's all really good. Even Verellen had a SS hybrid amp.


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