# Kiesel ZEUS Bolt on headless waaaaaaaaaaaaaat



## MrHelloGuitar (Jan 4, 2018)

Guys 

 

The hype is real


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## Bdtunn (Jan 4, 2018)

Does Oakland axe factory and xen get a cut off this thing for the design.....


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 4, 2018)

Meh?


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 4, 2018)

I think it looks excellent as a 7-string. Proportions are a little weird as a 6 sadly



Bdtunn said:


> Does Oakland axe factory and xen get a cut off this thing for the design.....



Looks different enough from those models that one shouldn't be confused. It's not like the super modern single cut look is that unique


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## Leviathus (Jan 4, 2018)

At least it appears someone's already vomited on it...


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## CapinCripes (Jan 4, 2018)

nope.jpg


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## MrHelloGuitar (Jan 4, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> I think it looks excellent as a 7-string. Proportions are a little weird as a 6 sadly
> 
> 
> 
> Looks different enough from those models that one shouldn't be confused. It's not like the super modern single cut look is that unique



I definitely agree, I can see a lot of people getting salty about the shape especially its' proportions relative to how many strings are on the body. I know for a fact that this guitar is going to be more comfortable than most and very easy to play, and that bottom horn is not getting in my way anytime soon. I'm definitely going to order one.


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## cardinal (Jan 4, 2018)

https://www.kieselguitars.com/zeus/

As with all things Kiesel/Carvin it almost looks cool but somehow not executed quite right.


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## feraledge (Jan 4, 2018)




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## Church2224 (Jan 4, 2018)

Not my usual cup of tea...

But I like it. Might have to think of one for my first headless. This or a Vader. Looks different enough to the point where it works.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2018)

That's pretty good, but by Kiesel standards they knocked it out of the park! Terrible idea making an entire guitar body out of buckeye burl though.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2018)

Bdtunn said:


> Does Oakland axe factory and xen get a cut off this thing for the design.....



I was thinking that new Dark Matter / Belaguer thing was a bit closer.


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## oracles (Jan 4, 2018)

It's like the much uglier version of a Fast/OAF Falcon. Gross.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 4, 2018)

hate junk in the trunk headless guitars.


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## CapinCripes (Jan 4, 2018)

narad said:


> That's pretty good, but by Kiesel standards they knocked it out of the park! Terrible idea making an entire guitar body out of buckeye burl though.


Isnt that stuff like really fragile? If so i feel for the bridge studs.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 4, 2018)

I like it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 4, 2018)

I think this is the only kiesel that I actually like with the bevel. I actually really like it.


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## narad (Jan 4, 2018)

CapinCripes said:


> Isnt that stuff like really fragile? If so i feel for the bridge studs.



Some buckeye is probably better referred to as "rot" than "wood", but who knows. I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I've been advised by a number of luthiers not to have thick burl tops as they felt it was a tone suck. I'm not huge into the tone wood lore, but a whole body of the stuff, and buckeye at that, find that hard to trust.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 4, 2018)

narad said:


> That's pretty good, but by Kiesel standards they knocked it out of the park! Terrible idea making an entire guitar body out of buckeye burl though.


edit: such a waste of buckeye, that body is going to be realllllly soft.


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## xzacx (Jan 4, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think this is the only kiesel that I actually like with the bevel.



Yes, the bevel seems to actually flow and compliment the design for a change.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 4, 2018)

are we approaching headless singularity now.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 4, 2018)

dbl


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## Curt (Jan 4, 2018)

it's like the perfect 8 string single cut headless shape, IMO. But just not a fan of it with the 6 strings, which is pretty much all I play anymore.


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## Hollowway (Jan 4, 2018)

I'm not a fan of the shape at all. BUT, I did see Sims Cashion in the demo video, and that was totally worth it. That dude rips! I want to know what he's playing through in the vid, because I love that tone.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 4, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> are we approaching headless singularity now.


nope that's still the dumbest headless sc design. it has zakk wylde pointy ass syndrome.


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## Lemons (Jan 4, 2018)

It doesn't look quite right, but its the closest to being interested in Kiesel guitars I've been in a while.


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## StevenC (Jan 4, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think this is the only kiesel that I actually like with the bevel. I actually really like it.


At first, watching the video, I was thinking of course he's adding a bevel, that's what Kiesel does. Then I realised it was a genius idea and it would flow into the contour for the tuners. Then I saw the 8 string version. So close.


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## Cheap (Jan 5, 2018)

Looks so much like David Maxim Micic’s Wood Guerilla guitar (which I love). Makes me wish it had a headstock tho.. definitely the most I’ve like a Kiesel ever. Also the raw tone pink looks sick


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## Albake21 (Jan 5, 2018)

I would have been all for this if it wasn't for the tele shaped part of the body. I can't stand that les paul/tele shape, I need two points. Also not a headless fan, but all in all it's a pretty cool guitar, just not my cup of tea. I wonder if they have any other models to show off at NAMM, although I really doubt it.


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## Bigfan (Jan 5, 2018)

I'll take my Falcon any day


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## Takk (Jan 5, 2018)

According to Jeff, Zeus is based on SCB.


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## dirtool (Jan 5, 2018)

I like the bgm


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## A-Branger (Jan 5, 2018)

I love how in their instagram post they refer to Jeff as "the bevel master"


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## Spicypickles (Jan 5, 2018)

His bevelness needs to sit on these designs just a bit longer. This one is actually fairly interesting, but just misses the mark.


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## Blytheryn (Jan 5, 2018)

When I thought the Tosin would be the ugliest guitar shape I’d ever seen...


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## Blytheryn (Jan 5, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> I love how in their instagram post they refer to Jeff as "the bevel master"



Lord of all bevels and burls.


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## Taikatatti (Jan 5, 2018)

I was on the waiting list for a Ormsby goliath but that will be removed quick. Absolutely love the one Simon got. I’m so getting one of these on graphite finish!


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## beerandbeards (Jan 5, 2018)

Reminds me of a Flowerhorn Cichlid


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## JSanta (Jan 5, 2018)

I like it - I won't order one, but I like it.


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## DudeManBrother (Jan 5, 2018)

I like it a lot more than the Vader. If they would chop out 1/2” from the center on the 6 string, I think it would make all the difference. But still pretty cool.


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## jwade (Jan 5, 2018)

Despite the awful wood choices they always make, this new model is a sleeker version of Yamaha's AES series, which is I guess kind of an ok move? I mean nobody really rips off Yamaha, so...


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## StevenC (Jan 5, 2018)

jwade said:


> Despite the awful wood choices they always make, this new model is a sleeker version of Yamaha's AES series, which is I guess kind of an ok move? I mean nobody really rips off Yamaha, so...


The Yamaha AES RS7 is way cooler than this.


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## jwade (Jan 5, 2018)

Oh I didn't say the kiesel was cool or better than the aes stuff, just sleeker


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## narad (Jan 5, 2018)

At the end of the day, I find that pretty awesome looking. I'm assuming this is some sort of in-progress photo before they add the pink-to-lime burst on the edge.


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## laxu (Jan 5, 2018)

I feel like lately Kiesel designs for comfort rather than looks. A lot of people (including me) gave shit for the Aries when it came out but it turns out to be a really comfortable guitar to play. I bet this one is like that too but god damn, it's not pretty. I feel like with headless you need to scale down the body as well or the proportions look off. Putting the pickup selector (as a 3-way toggle) on the horn would have helped too as that area looks a bit too empty.


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## technomancer (Jan 5, 2018)

narad said:


> At the end of the day, I find that pretty awesome looking. I'm assuming this is some sort of in-progress photo before they add the pink-to-lime burst on the edge.



Yeah while I would never want a solid buckeye burl guitar I have to admit that does look cool. Seems the proportions on the design look best as a 7 too


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## mphsc (Jan 5, 2018)

I'm in between with liking it or not. There will also be a solid buckeye Aries 6 w/trem at NAMM w/solid walnut neck.


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## Lorcan Ward (Jan 5, 2018)

I've never played a Kiesel and shape/asthethics aside for $1100-1200 that is a serious amount of guitar for the price. Even with some minor wood upgrades and a stain that comes in at great value.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I've never played a Kiesel and shape/asthethics aside for $1100-1200 that is a serious amount of guitar for the price. Even with some minor wood upgrades and a stain that comes in at great value.



Value has always been thier trademark. Bar few exceptions they are the most value packed brand in the business right now. You will not find better, so long as you like the actual product.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 5, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I've never played a Kiesel and shape/asthethics aside for $1100-1200 that is a serious amount of guitar for the price. Even with some minor wood upgrades and a stain that comes in at great value.


I think it says a lot that they can offer US made guitars at the prices they do, and all 4 of my kiesels have been on par with comparably priced PRS and ESP guitars that I've tried (in terms of wood figure/fit/finish/playability). My vaders are def on par with my customs as well. When they knock it out of the park, they really knock it out of the park.


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## MikeH (Jan 5, 2018)

That thing is ugly as hell. Then again, I don't think I've ever seen a headless design that wasn't a Strandberg that I liked.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 5, 2018)

Blytheryn said:


> Lord of all bevels and burls.



What are you doin'?..You left "Duke of Burl" just sitting there. C'mon, man. Wake up!


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## xwmucradiox (Jan 5, 2018)

The beginning of this video is so ridiculous with trying to make it look like Jeff literally designed the guitar on a body blank and that was that.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 5, 2018)




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## spudmunkey (Jan 5, 2018)

I like the verions with the tops much more than I thought I would. I have an un-topped Aries, but I think tops work much better here than on the Aries.

One thing to note: the bottom edge of the top is more rounded than on models with the BBE/BBEB. I don't suspect we'll see many Zeus models with the contrasting bevel like on the Aries, SCB, Vanquish, etc. In the Q&A vesterday, Jeff mentioned that if someone wanted BBE, they would need to leave this edge sharper. he thought they could do it, but it would be a "it's yours" modification. 



xwmucradiox said:


> The beginning of this video is so ridiculous with trying to make it look like Jeff literally designed the guitar on a body blank and that was that.



I mean, it's no different than a car commercial where they're sculpting a clay model of a car in a giant immaculate and empty warehouse with dramatic studio lighting, or a beer commercial where someone digs their hands into an overflowing barrel of hopps just sitting around next to the brew silo-sized kettles, and taking a big whiff with their eyes closed, then making a note in their clipboard. Or achitects walking through a completely finished building with rolled-up blueprints and a hard hat. It's marketing.


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## CapinCripes (Jan 5, 2018)

*mod edit: over the line*


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## jephjacques (Jan 5, 2018)

I actually really like these?????? Always thought the Vader's horns looked a lil dorky but this is nice.


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## xzacx (Jan 5, 2018)

xwmucradiox said:


> The beginning of this video is so ridiculous with trying to make it look like Jeff literally designed the guitar on a body blank and that was that.



That "close-but-something-isn't-quite-right" aesthetic that Kiesel seems to often nail actually makes this plausible.


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## musicman61554 (Jan 5, 2018)

I really like the pic with the 4 of them. That purple top is beautiful. Of course having Sims play is awesome. Such a beast for his age.


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## schwiz (Jan 5, 2018)

Ugly as hell. I'd rather have a Vader.


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## Electric Wizard (Jan 5, 2018)

Oh man these are very tempting to me, but I'd feel guilty going for one as a former OAF/XEN owner.


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## Bigfan (Jan 5, 2018)

Electric Wizard said:


> Oh man these are very tempting to me, but I'd feel guilty going for one as a former OAF/XEN owner.



Well, It's not like OAF or XEN have a patent on headless singlecuts.


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## Albake21 (Jan 5, 2018)

JSanta said:


> I like it - I won't order one, but I like it.


That's exactly how I feel about it. I like it, but I personally will never order one.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 5, 2018)

First, more images:























Now, I....kind...of...like the design, much better than the Letchford model, but if I'm hard pressed I'd probably go for a Vader.
The Zeus 7,8 look way better than the 6, which looks way off. Although I think the design of the front is fresh and has a more sensible "bevel" from the Lord of the Bevels himself , the back is a standard issued Kiesel bolt-on, doesn't look too comfy there IMHO.


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## Electric Wizard (Jan 5, 2018)

Bigfan said:


> Well, It's not like OAF or XEN have a patent on headless singlecuts.


No but this appeals to me in the way that the OXC did. I'd feel a little bad for getting a Carvin over supporting those guys again.


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## technomancer (Jan 5, 2018)

This is sort of growing on me.. kind of like a fungus

OH GOD GET IT OFF!!!!!!!


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 5, 2018)

technomancer said:


> This is sort of growing on me.. kind of like a fungus
> 
> OH GOD GET IT OFF!!!!!!!


ONE OF US GOOGLEDY GOBBLEDY GOO ONE OF US


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## technomancer (Jan 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> ONE OF US GOOGLEDY GOBBLEDY GOO ONE OF US



Kiesel Players Group

View media item 582


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## BigViolin (Jan 5, 2018)

What? No puzzle piece reveal??!!!

As a multiscale 8 it pretty much ticks the boxes of what I've been wanting for awhile. It's just soo bulbous looking as a 6 or 7. Consider me a maybe.


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## A-Branger (Jan 5, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>


first of all at elast the bevel line here seems to follow the guitar shape better, which looks better overall, not like the Aries. So good on that

I also was coming here to say that this guitar would be one like the Aries where it only looks better with a solid color/stain, and jsut wait till tops start coming out, but then I saw this pic and I must say they actually looks good. 

As long as they stain the top in full including the bevel part!!, please dont have the bevel un-masked "binding" effect, no more 3 wood sandwich look. See how muhc better looks when the top color/stain includes the bevel/binding part of it


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## SamuraiShred (Jan 5, 2018)

The 7 looks very very nice! I'd like to give it a go...plus the price makes it affordable.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 5, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> As long as they stain the top in full including the bevel part!!, please dont have the bevel un-masked "binding" effect, no more 3 wood sandwich look. See how muhc better looks when the top color/stain includes the bevel/binding part of it



Thankfully it's not an option on this model without waiving the return (which doesn't seem to be a huge problem for lots of folks so we MAY see it), so I suspect it won't be as common as on an SCB, Aries, vanquish, etc.


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## A-Branger (Jan 5, 2018)

and theres a bass model too.

Still dont like headless basses, but cool


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## sezna (Jan 5, 2018)

I want to like it but I haven't seen any finish/fretboard combos I like the looks of so far. It looks super comfy.

I am one of the rare breed that likes the Vader in 6 and 7 string configs, but I think the 8 looks like a surfboard. This seems to look best as an 8. So perhaps an 8 string version of this to complement my 7 string Vader. Hm..


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## technomancer (Jan 5, 2018)

While the piece of burl sucks I even kind of like the blue with the contrasting bevel  Wish there was a solid color one to see how that looks...


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## narad (Jan 5, 2018)

I think on that blue burl if it was tastefully contrasting solid colors where the blue and natural is, could be pretty cool. I'm imagining like a gloss black where the bevel is and a dark metallic grey where the blue is. I dare say, this is the most I've thought about ordering a Kiesel in like 3 years. I should revisit that shitshow Kiesel thread to put a cold shower on my GAS.


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## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 5, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> and theres a bass model too.
> 
> Still dont like headless basses, but cool



Yep, here it is:


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jan 5, 2018)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> Yep, here it is:



Oh sh!t. That's pretty hot. I... I might have to do bad things.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 5, 2018)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> the back is a standard issued Kiesel bolt-on, doesn't look too comfy there IMHO.



I find it to be more comfortable than my old Ibanez Prestige S series from the early 90s with an early AANJ. It's less smooth than my CS6 (their Les Paul style guitar), but it's less bulky.

This image is the only angle I can find that shows it in a flattering angle. In hand, it generally feels like it looks here:


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 5, 2018)

Yeah those heels are ugly as all get out, but they are out of the way.


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## xzacx (Jan 5, 2018)

narad said:


> I should revisit that shitshow Kiesel thread to put a cold shower on my GAS.



This is good advice. For a long time I've wanted to get something made based on Prince's Superbowl Strat (Daphne Blue, maple board, H-S white EMGs) and was thinking this might be a cool and cheap way to do it. That thread should help talk me out of it.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 5, 2018)

solid color under 1200. go nuts on any kiesel you want. after that...what are you doing


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## Hollowway (Jan 6, 2018)

Bigfan said:


> Well, It's not like OAF or XEN have a patent on headless singlecuts.



True, but based on this model, you'd think they had a patent on tasteful designs.  

I can't say what it is about the Kiesel designs, but they always look like they're onto a potentially good idea, but never made it past the sketch-on-a-napkin stage. I mean, I look at stuff like Padalka, Skervesen, and even Joe B's new Dark Matter designs, and THOSE are drool worthy examples of what you can do with a single cut headless. But Kiesel keeps coming out with designs that don't give me that "OMG I NEED THAT" feeling. It's more of a, "Well, it's not a bad price. I wonder if I could do something cool, spec wise?" It's like the difference between seeing a girl in a store, and thinking, "Holy cow!" and continually trying to walk around in front of her and make excuses to turn around and look at her... vs. not having a girl friend, and there's this OK girl that your friends are telling you about, and they keep trying to show you certain pictures where she looks decent, and you think, "Well, she is nice. Maybe we would get along well?"

I mean, does Jeff truly feel that any of these recent designs will still be around, unretired, in 20 years? Or is he just maximizing profit in the short term, and figuring a few of these will work, so it's better to just take a shotgun approach? I love the frequency that he's turning out new models, but I really don't have a jonesing for any of the recent designs.


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## Hollowway (Jan 6, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> solid color under 1200. go nuts on any kiesel you want. after that...what are you doing


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## A-Branger (Jan 6, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> True, but based on this model, you'd think they had a patent on tasteful designs.
> 
> I can't say what it is about the Kiesel designs, but they always look like they're onto a potentially good idea, but never made it past the sketch-on-a-napkin stage. I mean, I look at stuff like Padalka, Skervesen, and even Joe B's new Dark Matter designs, and THOSE are drool worthy examples of what you can do with a single cut headless. But Kiesel keeps coming out with designs that don't give me that "OMG I NEED THAT" feeling. It's more of a, "Well, it's not a bad price. I wonder if I could do something cool, spec wise?" It's like the difference between seeing a girl in a store, and thinking, "Holy cow!" and continually trying to walk around in front of her and make excuses to turn around and look at her... vs. not having a girl friend, and there's this OK girl that your friends are telling you about, and they keep trying to show you certain pictures where she looks decent, and you think, "Well, she is nice. Maybe we would get along well?"
> 
> I mean, does Jeff truly feel that any of these recent designs will still be around, unretired, in 20 years? Or is he just maximizing profit in the short term, and figuring a few of these will work, so it's better to just take a shotgun approach? I love the frequency that he's turning out new models, but I really don't have a jonesing for any of the recent designs.


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## marcwormjim (Jan 6, 2018)

I want to know what these guitars look like before the final stage where the fat guy sits on them.


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## vortex_infinium (Jan 6, 2018)

I don't think it's the worst looking body but then again nowadays I value personal comfort over looks and this looks really comfy. I've been lurking around for a headless multiscale 8 string that won't break the bank and I have no idea what I'm doing.

$1399 for a quality brand seems like a deal but for just $100 more I can get a Vader that's neck-thru instead of bolt-on.

Also, first post in 7 years.


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## Takk (Jan 6, 2018)

I'm not a bassist but Zeus Bass looks pretty cool.


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## DudeManBrother (Jan 6, 2018)

I think the above post proves that the width of the body needs to be smaller, and proportional to the neck. It works beautifully on a 6 string bass. Even the 7 looks clunky and wide-body by comparison.


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## cardinal (Jan 6, 2018)

DudeManBrother said:


> I think the above post proves that the width of the body needs to be smaller, and proportional to the neck. It works beautifully on a 6 string bass. Even the 7 looks clunky and wide-body by comparison.



Yeah, I personally would still refine the shape a bit, but it clearly IMHO looks best on that 6-string bass. Anything with a narrower (and shorter) neck, it’s just wrong looking.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> True, but based on this model, you'd think they had a patent on tasteful designs.
> 
> I can't say what it is about the Kiesel designs, but they always look like they're onto a potentially good idea, but never made it past the sketch-on-a-napkin stage. I mean, I look at stuff like Padalka, Skervesen, and even Joe B's new Dark Matter designs, and THOSE are drool worthy examples of what you can do with a single cut headless. But Kiesel keeps coming out with designs that don't give me that "OMG I NEED THAT" feeling. It's more of a, "Well, it's not a bad price. I wonder if I could do something cool, spec wise?" It's like the difference between seeing a girl in a store, and thinking, "Holy cow!" and continually trying to walk around in front of her and make excuses to turn around and look at her... vs. not having a girl friend, and there's this OK girl that your friends are telling you about, and they keep trying to show you certain pictures where she looks decent, and you think, "Well, she is nice. Maybe we would get along well?"
> 
> I mean, does Jeff truly feel that any of these recent designs will still be around, unretired, in 20 years? Or is he just maximizing profit in the short term, and figuring a few of these will work, so it's better to just take a shotgun approach? I love the frequency that he's turning out new models, but I really don't have a jonesing for any of the recent designs.


the second jeff copies the padalka saturn my wallet is in trouble lol


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## cardinal (Jan 6, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> True, but based on this model, you'd think they had a patent on tasteful designs.
> 
> I can't say what it is about the Kiesel designs, but they always look like they're onto a potentially good idea, but never made it past the sketch-on-a-napkin stage. I mean, I look at stuff like Padalka, Skervesen, and even Joe B's new Dark Matter designs, and THOSE are drool worthy examples of what you can do with a single cut headless. But Kiesel keeps coming out with designs that don't give me that "OMG I NEED THAT" feeling. It's more of a, "Well, it's not a bad price. I wonder if I could do something cool, spec wise?" It's like the difference between seeing a girl in a store, and thinking, "Holy cow!" and continually trying to walk around in front of her and make excuses to turn around and look at her... vs. not having a girl friend, and there's this OK girl that your friends are telling you about, and they keep trying to show you certain pictures where she looks decent, and you think, "Well, she is nice. Maybe we would get along well?"
> 
> I mean, does Jeff truly feel that any of these recent designs will still be around, unretired, in 20 years? Or is he just maximizing profit in the short term, and figuring a few of these will work, so it's better to just take a shotgun approach? I love the frequency that he's turning out new models, but I really don't have a jonesing for any of the recent designs.



I would own (ok... at least have bought!) a ton of Carvins/Kiesels if they could just refine their shapes and headstocks a bit. The concept of what they offer is great. But I just can’t get over the aesthetics.

All of the 24-fretters have the neck too far forward relative to the body. That leaves too much space behind the bridge , making the body seem bulbous and bottom heavy. And the front horns look stubby in comparison.

And that notwithstanding, the shape of the front horns isn’t quite right. They don’t seem to flow out from the body. Too narrow where they connect to the body. 

The single cuts don’t have that issue, but this guy has its own set of problems. The front lobe comes up too high and the body overall is too wide. And with the huge upper lobe, the limply little lower horn looks a bit impotent.


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## JSanta (Jan 6, 2018)

Dammit, I REALLY like the blue burl one. I had a Vader that I returned within the return window because I realized I don't really dig headless guitars. If I was going to get another solid body guitar, a bare bones version of this would be high on the list. 



So would a divorce I have been told.


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## Shask (Jan 6, 2018)

Uggghhh..... Fugly. I have found most of their recent designs fugly. I have kind of lost interest with them over the last year due to the fugly designs and issues documented on this site.

I still want a DC600 though. I still think those look pretty good. I like the Aries also, but if I am getting a Kiesel, it needs to be 25" scale. That is, IMO, what makes them stand out. I have a SCB6 that just plays amazing, even if I don't love the looks.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

if the bevel was black this would look pretty nice. I can't stand that antique ash look.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I can't stand that antique ash look.



It's the artificially aged thing, but for folks who make fun of it when Fender does it.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's the artificially aged thing, but for folks who make fun of it when Fender does it.


If I wanted my guitar to look like it was made from a barn door then I'd actually make it from a damn barn door. It just looks dumb having a faded/antiqued back/bevel and not doing it to the top as well.


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## technomancer (Jan 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> if the bevel was black this would look pretty nice. I can't stand that antique ash look.



I'd say natural on the bevel, but yeah not a fan of the dropped it in the dirt and rolled it around a bit finishes. Also not a fan of not filling voids in burl, especially that spot that looks like it is right where your arm would sit, but that is another story.


----------



## ramses (Jan 6, 2018)

I actually find this one sexy, in a weird way.



Stuck_in_a_dream said:


>


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 6, 2018)

You guys are right the proportions on the bass just look so much better.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

technomancer said:


> I'd say natural on the bevel, but yeah not a fan of the dropped it in the dirt and rolled it around a bit finishes. Also not a fan of not filling voids in burl, especially that spot that looks like it is right where your arm would sit, but that is another story.


it's weird because I specifically remember videos where jeff showed how they break off extra pieces of the burl and use those to fill voids. Might just be the clear coat sunk or something


----------



## Ziricote (Jan 6, 2018)

So its the battle of the Zeus vs the Hydra at this years NAMM. We need the comparison reviews from the show please! From the people who will sit and take the time to play each please


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> it's weird because I specifically remember videos where jeff showed how they break off extra pieces of the burl and use those to fill voids. Might just be the clear coat sunk or something



Then we *know* it's bullshit. 

That's not how burl works. Put this firmly in the "you can't put the top on the arm contour" category.


----------



## narad (Jan 6, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> So its the battle of the Zeus vs the Hydra at this years NAMM. We need the comparison reviews from the show please! From the people who will sit and take the time to play each please



The Hydra's been out since NAMM 2017 though. But ya, in the battle of the gross burl tops, there will probably lots of top contenders from both models...


----------



## Ziricote (Jan 6, 2018)

narad said:


> The Hydra's been out since NAMM 2017 though. But ya, in the battle of the gross burl tops, there will probably lots of top contenders from both models...


So true! I heard Hydras never made it the public hands aside from some protos. Someone said they heard ALOT of Hydras at NAMM this year for second round of official debut. I hope people take the pics for us to see. Does Jeff use the wenge for necks? I want Zeus w ash body and wenge neck


----------



## Bdtunn (Jan 6, 2018)

Strandberg just teased what looks to be a "teleberg" now I could get down with that. Battle of the headless single cuts this year haha


----------



## Ziricote (Jan 6, 2018)

Bdtunn said:


> Strandberg just teased what looks to be a "teleberg" now I could get down with that. Battle of the headless single cuts this year haha


I cant take it lol


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 6, 2018)

Bdtunn said:


> Strandberg just teased what looks to be a "teleberg" now I could get down with that. Battle of the headless single cuts this year haha


The strandberg is actually a tele. Kiesel makes no teles. They will not route for tele pickups and they don’t sell any tele pickups. They make vaguely tele shapes guitars.


----------



## narad (Jan 6, 2018)

Went looking for it, found Boden, by Kiesel:


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2018)

When I see stuff like that I can never tell whether they wanted the burst that bad or if they tried to do it right, failed, and are too embarrassed to try again.


----------



## Bdtunn (Jan 6, 2018)

[ATTACH


----------



## Bdtunn (Jan 6, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> The strandberg is actually a tele. Kiesel makes no teles. They will not route for tele pickups and they don’t sell any tele pickups. They make vaguely tele shapes guitars.



Was only talking about general "shape".


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Then we *know* it's bullshit.
> 
> That's not how burl works. Put this firmly in the "you can't put the top on the arm contour" category.


I mean, they literally showed employees filling the voids with other pieces of the burl on one of the live streams. I don't know if they do that for all the tops, but based off of what I've seen from their instagram they tend to do a pretty good job of filling the voids. Based off how last year's namm went I would assume that Jeff did most of the work on the zeus guitars, which might be why they're not filled


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

narad said:


> Went looking for it, found Boden, by Kiesel:


looks like a bruised boden


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 6, 2018)

Come clean man, that's your new sig huh?

All that stain fade practice paid off.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> Come clean man, that's your new sig huh?
> 
> All that stain fade practice paid off.


pssh you know I'd blend it better than that


----------



## Señor Voorhees (Jan 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I mean, they literally showed employees filling the voids with other pieces of the burl on one of the live streams. I don't know if they do that for all the tops, but based off of what I've seen from their instagram they tend to do a pretty good job of filling the voids. Based off how last year's namm went I would assume that Jeff did most of the work on the zeus guitars, which might be why they're not filled



To me the Zeus models just look like that ultra thin finish they always talk up. The raw tone or whatever it's called, only with burl it looks like it creates jagged ugly pot-holes where on ash it leaves textured ash grain, which looks pretty cool to me. Kind of a swing and a miss with those nasty dimples, but they look pretty otherwise. If the finish was smooth, I'd definitely like one. I doubt I'll pick one of these up though for the simple fact that I'm more inclined to want a figured top, but don't feel like paying for another kiesel with a figured top. I actually quite like the bevel on this model with a figured top.


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> it's weird because I specifically remember videos where jeff showed how they break off extra pieces of the burl and use those to fill voids. Might just be the clear coat sunk or something



They do that for the big holes in Buckeye. If your talking about the blue poplar burl with the mahogany body, that's poplar which doesn't really have the same big holes. 

The divots in the satin finish shown are definitely just their thin "raw tone" satin finish, which doesn't have the self-levelling grain filling clear primer, making both the deep grain of Ash show through, as well as the eyes of poplar burl and tiny little crevasses in Claro walnut, etc.


----------



## VigilSerus (Jan 6, 2018)

I like the new model in 7's and 8's, more specifically the multiscale. The angles really blend all the contours and bevel together in a pleasing way. Their graphite/bloodwood build looks fantastic.


----------



## Spicypickles (Jan 6, 2018)

narad said:


> Went looking for it, found Boden, by Kiesel:



I thought an owner did those mods. 

Regarding this guitar, I think my issue was with the straight fret models. The fanned are where it’s at. I would take a 7-8 for sure. Currently thinking about moving some pieces, to be honest.


----------



## xzacx (Jan 6, 2018)

Spicypickles said:


> I thought an owner did those mods.



I thought so too. Doesn’t change how much it sucks, just who the blame falls on.


----------



## USMarine75 (Jan 6, 2018)

Oh dammit I logged on to hate on Gibsons... my fault, I should have checked the schedule. Today is Kiesel hate day.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 6, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> Oh dammit I logged on to hate on Gibsons... my fault, I should have checked the schedule. Today is Kiesel hate day.


And tomorrow is hate on etherial day.


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> And tomorrow is hate on etherial day.



Every day is Etherial Hate Day.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 6, 2018)

USMarine75 said:


> Oh dammit I logged on to hate on Gibsons... my fault, I should have checked the schedule. Today is Kiesel hate day.



I don't think anyone could really look at this thread and say it's objectively hateful. At least not anywhere near the usual Gibson thread. 

If anything, I'd say this model is being received rather positively. Heck, some of the most critical of Kiesel in recent memory are saying it's good.

It's not all sunshine and daisies, but hey, not everyone can be Fishman.


----------



## crackout (Jan 7, 2018)

I hate these chopped off headstock designs. Give it a headless-headstock like Strandberg, Padalka etc.


----------



## SamuraiShred (Jan 7, 2018)

Am I the only one who thinks that the body shape looks like an hybrid between the Tosin Abasi signature guitar and a telecaster? 
IMHO Kiesel would make a significant improvement if it made some real shred-style extra thin neck shapes: Kiesel guitars are really awesome to look but when it comes to pliability the neck profile is really to chunky for many players...


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2018)

SamuraiShred said:


> Am I the only one who thinks that the body shape looks like an hybrid between the Tosin Abasi signature guitar and a telecaster?
> IMHO Kiesel would make a significant improvement if it made some real shred-style extra thin neck shapes: Kiesel guitars are really awesome to look but when it comes to pliability the neck profile is really to chunky for many players...



Have you tried anything with the thinner neck option? 

I found it pretty comfortable and I'm an old UV guy. I like thin, flat necks.


----------



## SamuraiShred (Jan 7, 2018)

I think it depends on which guitars are you used to play...I tried a Kiesel once but unfortunately I didn't know what neck profile it had; I found it too fat and it was definitely a C-shape rather than a super-slim D.


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 7, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


>



Sucks that Jeff went out on the beach and stepped on a jellyfish, but why did he take a selfie with it?


----------



## iamaom (Jan 7, 2018)

I guess I'm in the minority but I love a lot of Kiesel's tacky design. I just hope the bass model lasts long enough so I can get my moby dick bass.


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2018)

I'll say it one last time. The bass works, the shape flows and it's proportionate. It looks really cool to me. The 8 is better than the 7 but not quite there and the 6 is just wrong. They need to re-shape the bodies seperately based on neck width. I'm really tempted by the 8 because it's so close to what I want and is affordable, but I'd want to take the body to the spindle sander and rework it. Wonder if they will do these bodies in tung oil only?

Also, the pickup situation is way behind what the market wants. What I summize is some folks can make the lithiums work but few love them. They have enough multiscale designs to justify other offerings. Everything I've heard from the lithiums makes me think they wouldn't work for me and I own and dig the Holdsworths in my HH1. I haven't seen that BKPs at 10 degrees will drop right in to the 8 and getting a rewind is just a pain.


----------



## Shask (Jan 7, 2018)

SamuraiShred said:


> I think it depends on which guitars are you used to play...I tried a Kiesel once but unfortunately I didn't know what neck profile it had; I found it too fat and it was definitely a C-shape rather than a super-slim D.



That is one of the main reasons I like Kiesel necks. They have a nice round thickness, instead of flat and wide like every other shredder guitar. The round neck, and 25" scale is the only reason I even look at this brand.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 7, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> I'll say it one last time. The bass works, the shape flows and it's proportionate. It looks really cool to me. The 8 is better than the 7 but not quite there and the 6 is just wrong. They need to re-shape the bodies seperately based on neck width. I'm really tempted by the 8 because it's so close to what I want and is affordable, but I'd want to take the body to the spindle sander and rework it. Wonder if they will do these bodies in tung oil only?
> 
> Also, the pickup situation is way behind what the market wants. What I summize is some folks can make the lithiums work but few love them. They have enough multiscale designs to justify other offerings. Everything I've heard from the lithiums makes me think they wouldn't work for me and I own and dig the Holdsworths in my HH1. I haven't seen that BKPs at 10 degrees will drop right in to the 8 and getting a rewind is just a pain.



baseplates are swappable.


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## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> baseplates are swappable.



As in get the BKPs at 10 degrees and swap? Sure, doable if the screw holes line up but I wouldn't bet on it and either way it sounds like work. I'd probably sand the BKP base plate before redrilling and tapping. Tell me if I'm wrong but I don't see anything being standard in the multiscale arena. Then again they might drop in but they didn't in my DC7x. That took some work to the Warpig baseplates but it ended up being worth it.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 7, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> As in get the BKPs at 10 degrees and swap? Sure, doable if the screw holes line up but I wouldn't bet on it and either way it sounds like work. I'd probably sand the BKP base plate before redrilling and tapping. Tell me if I'm wrong but I don't see anything being standard in the multiscale arena. Then again they might drop in but they didn't in my DC7x. That took some work to the Warpig baseplates but it ended up being worth it.



no you get any bkps and swap them onto the lithium baseplates. 
The hard part is making the baseplates. Once you already have a baseplate you can put anything you want on there. It's just a piece of metal that the bobbins sit on.


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2018)

Sure but can you split the coils and move them that far without harm to the connections? Would you have to re-pot?

Thanks btw.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 7, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> Sure but can you split the coils and move them that far without harm to the connections? Would you have to re-pot?
> 
> Thanks btw.








you can move it quite a bit. you can repot if you want to. The wax is still there. You just need to break it a little and then remelt it carefully if you want. The coils are still potted. 

If you are worried you can get a guitar tech to do it. 

I mean your options really are --- baseplate swap - maybe 0-30 bucks.
Get sd to wind you the exact angle - might take 6 months + 20 bucks
bkp retail - nope
instrumental - yup
elysian - yup 

So plenty of options. Used pair of pickups and a baseplate swap imo is the cheapest.


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2018)

Very cool, thanks! As long as I don't have to mess with the coil wire I think I could pull it off.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 7, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> Very cool, thanks! As long as I don't have to mess with the coil wire I think I could pull it off.



you might have to do 2 scary things. 1 is to unsolder and solder the ground wire which is soldered to the baseplate. 

the other is to drill holes for the 2 mounting screws. I've never seen the plates on a lithium. You might have a problem if the bobbin mounting screws don't line up and might need to drill some holes. i'd measure and double check the string spacing.


----------



## BigViolin (Jan 7, 2018)

Great info! Would be doable as you say but I might just opt to see if Ethan has seen a lithium baseplate or send him one.


----------



## Esp Griffyn (Jan 7, 2018)

Hideous, one of the most boaty, unwieldy guitars I've ever seen.


----------



## laxu (Jan 7, 2018)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> the back is a standard issued Kiesel bolt-on, doesn't look too comfy there IMHO.



This works a lot better. It hides the contours more. Seems to be another Kiesel model that just doesn't work with all finishes and looks best with more strings. The bass also looks more in proportion.

The Kiesel bolt-on heel, even though it doesn't look like it, is the absolute best bolt-on heel I've played. It is shaped in a way that it doesn't get in the way at all.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 7, 2018)

Well I ordered the first multiscale 8 string version within the first hour of release.I genuinely like this shape. I also like all my other Kiesels. I've never had a single problem with them.
My specs:
Ash Body
Antique Ash Treatment in Raw Tone (I wanted it to look like an old piece of wood)
3 piece walnut with purple heart stripe neck
Purpleheart Fretboard with Luminlay Inlays
Thinner Neck Profile
White pickups with black pole pieces
White over black drop shadow logo


----------



## MrHelloGuitar (Jan 8, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Well I ordered the first multiscale 8 string version within the first hour of release.I genuinely like this shape. I also like all my other Kiesels. I've never had a single problem with them.
> My specs:
> Ash Body
> Antique Ash Treatment in Raw Tone (I wanted it to look like an old piece of wood)
> ...



That's gonna look siiiiiiiiiiiick


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 8, 2018)




----------



## movingpictures (Jan 8, 2018)

Now this looks killer! I want a gloss black multi 7-Macassar Ebony board.

Hmmm...should be getting a tax refund in a bit....




KnightBrolaire said:


>


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 9, 2018)




----------



## SamuraiShred (Jan 9, 2018)

The more I see it, the more I like the guitar. How long does it take usually to get the guitar from the time you order it?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 9, 2018)

SamuraiShred said:


> The more I see it, the more I like the guitar. How long does it take usually to get the guitar from the time you order it?


3 months or so normally.


----------



## Grand Moff Tim (Jan 9, 2018)

That white one makes me wish there was a white pickup covers option for their bass pickups.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 9, 2018)

Definitely like these as a 7 and 8... wish they would have scaled the body so it was proportional though as a six that didn't look "off" would be awesome.

Also what is up with all the low grade poplar burl?


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 9, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Definitely like these as a 7 and 8... wish they would have scaled the body so it was proportional though as a six that didn't look "off" would be awesome.
> 
> Also what is up with all the low grade poplar burl?


I don't know what you're talking about, those are clearly 10A poplar burl tops


----------



## technomancer (Jan 9, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I don't know what you're talking about, those are clearly 10A poplar burl tops


----------



## caspian (Jan 9, 2018)

Out of all the headless guitars I've seen it's definitely the one I hate the least. Yeah it's a fairly big, boaty, bloated sorta shape but i guess I'm a fairly big, bloated guy, so I feel like it fits!

Even the 25 million colour ones get 5/10, which for me, talking about gaudy kiesel guitars- that are headless!- is really high praise


----------



## Hollowway (Jan 10, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Well I ordered the first multiscale 8 string version within the first hour of release.I genuinely like this shape. I also like all my other Kiesels. I've never had a single problem with them.
> My specs:
> Ash Body
> Antique Ash Treatment in Raw Tone (I wanted it to look like an old piece of wood)
> ...



So YOU’RE the one ordering all that nasty Antique Ash!  I see a lot of it, and not being a fan of it myself, I didn’t know if it was hugely popular. (Also didn’t know it came in a raw tone option.) 
At any rate, I agree with the others that the 8 looks faaaaar better proportioned that then 6 (or 7). 
And you’ll have to do a Kiesel family shot when fat Uncle Zeus shows up.


----------



## Discoqueen (Jan 10, 2018)

I personally like how the 8 string multiscale looks. But I’m wierd. But can someone tell me why in the hell gloss finish on the neck is standard? Is that a mistake in the builder or a ruse to get money because no one buying a headless guitar wants a gloss finish on it ?


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 10, 2018)

This may belong in the unpopular opinions thread, but: 

Kiesel’s track record is so well-documented that their complicit customers deserve whatever they’re charged.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 10, 2018)

Discoqueen said:


> I personally like how the 8 string multiscale looks. But I’m wierd. But can someone tell me why in the hell gloss finish on the neck is standard? Is that a mistake in the builder or a ruse to get money because no one buying a headless guitar wants a gloss finish on it ?


satin finished neck is no charge right now iirc.  some people are so picky about neck finishes, I've got satin, oiled and gloss necks and they all feel great to me.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 10, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> satin finished neck is no charge right now iirc.  some people are so picky about neck finishes, I've got satin, oiled and gloss necks and they all feel great to me.



Not according to the builder they put up... actually compared to the Aries builder from a few days ago it looks like a LOT of things went up in price. 

That said it also looks like they still have some work to do on the builder as on the 7 the option for a clear coated back and sides and a colored top like on most of the demo guitars is missing. It also looks like the elixir 10-52 7 string set isn't on there either.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Not according to the builder they put up... actually compared to the Aries builder from a few days ago it looks like a LOT of things went up in price.
> 
> That said it also looks like they still have some work to do on the builder as on the 7 the option for a clear coated back and sides and a colored top like on most of the demo guitars is missing. It also looks like the elixir 10-52 7 string set isn't on there either.


yeah it depends on the guitar. vaders get satin necks if you choose a satin body for free, but the zeus you'd have to pay 70$ for a satin neck if you get a satin body


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 10, 2018)

The builder is always buggy on the new stuff. Always best to call, especially on new models.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 10, 2018)

OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.

The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.
> 
> The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...


if they did the whole thing in orange sparkle it would've been sick. If they'd done the natural body/blue top that would've looked nice. But why in cthulhu's name did they fucking do both of those AND put in cream pickups/gold bolts. I'm just envisioning what guitar hell looks like, and I'm pretty sure it's populated by ed roman, bernie rico, etherial, minarik, vampire and jeff kiesel just because of tacky ass builds like this.


----------



## JSanta (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.
> 
> The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...



This is exactly what Jeff does: makes what is a half-decent or really decent looking body shape and then vomit colors on it.


----------



## SDMFVan (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.
> 
> The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...



I feel like the body would look a lot more proportionate if you removed everything that is natural. It just looks too damn big.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 10, 2018)

SDMFVan said:


> I feel like the body would look a lot more proportionate if you removed everything that is natural. It just looks too damn big.



I think the 7s and 8s look fine, but the neck for the 6 is just too tiny in relation to the body. They really needed to do some scaling for the six to look right


----------



## Discoqueen (Jan 10, 2018)

It’s weird because no other bolt-on they sell is like that  

I hope it’s just a kink that needs to be worked out still


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 10, 2018)

alright this one is really cool, probably because it's all one color and it happens to be lambo blue pearl. All it needs is carbon fiber wrapped pickups and knobs


----------



## Frostbite (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.
> 
> The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...


I usually don't care much about kiesel's insistence on using weird color combos, but what a fucking waste of a beautiful quilted maple top.


----------



## cardinal (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.
> 
> The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...



This is so terrible that I love it. It’s magnificent.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 10, 2018)

So lambo blue and lambo orange (the color of the burst I posted and the guitar KnightBrolaire posted) are both available now for a $100 upcharge.



cardinal said:


> This is so terrible that I love it. It’s magnificent.



Apparently from the video Jeff posted it will only set you back $4100


----------



## cardinal (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Apparently from the video Jeff posted it will only set you back $4100



Then it gets the proper SSO response: dude its so sick I will totally so buy it if only it had a reversed headstock and a different bridge and pickups.


----------



## sezna (Jan 10, 2018)

I think Jeff thinks finishes are cool if they look complex and difficult to do, which makes sense for someone who grew up in a guitar custom shop. This sense just doesn’t always line up with actually looking good haha


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 10, 2018)

sezna said:


> I think Jeff thinks finishes are cool if they look complex and difficult to do, which makes sense for someone who grew up in a guitar custom shop. This sense just doesn’t always line up with actually looking good haha


I feel like this is pretty accurate. Hell I know I would think the same way if I owned my own shop and could make limitless guitars. I would definitely be coming up with ridiculous styled guitars.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 10, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> So YOU’RE the one ordering all that nasty Antique Ash!  I see a lot of it, and not being a fan of it myself, I didn’t know if it was hugely popular. (Also didn’t know it came in a raw tone option.)
> At any rate, I agree with the others that the 8 looks faaaaar better proportioned that then 6 (or 7).
> And you’ll have to do a Kiesel family shot when fat Uncle Zeus shows up.




Tbh i've never tried their antique ash before. I just wanted this to look like an old piece of discarded wood attached to some purpleheart. I will definitely do a family shot. Waiting on my KRG sparkle that was posted on their Facebook today.


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 10, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> yeah it depends on the guitar. vaders get satin necks if you choose a satin body for free, but the zeus you'd have to pay 70$ for a satin neck if you get a satin body



Not sure why that necessitates the finger-around-the-ear smiley. Think about it this way: On a Zeua/Aries/Vanquish/Solo/Bolt you get a tung oil neck for free and on any set neck of neck-through model, you have to pay for it.

A neck-through, it makes sense to just paint it all at once. If you don't need to tape off a neck, it's easier/faster one trip to the booth. On a bolt-on, where each piece is finished seperately, it's faster/cheaper to do a tung oil neck and also requires less labor to get it to fit into the neck pocket without extra build-up of finish. Their bolt-ons have always had tung oil necks for free. If you get the neck with a gloss or satin finish, no matter what the body is, it takes more work (especially if you got a headstock-to-match-the-body finish because that might be gloss to match a glossy body, then sprayed on satin for the neck, etc). They actually stopped offering poly-finished necks for a while, shortly after I ordered it on my Aries with a clear satin neck. They only recently brought it back.

And I'll readily admit to being a card-carrying Kiesel fanboy, but holy hell...I can't defend that Broncos/Florida Gators Zeus. Ha!


----------



## technomancer (Jan 10, 2018)

I really hope to see more pics of those lambo colors on the Zeus in different lighting



spudmunkey said:


> Not sure why that necessitates the finger-around-the-ear smiley. Think about it this way: On a Zeua/Aries/Vanquish/Solo/Bolt you get a tung oil neck for free and on any set neck of neck-through model, you have to pay for it.



But you don't if the builder is correct... the Zeus neck is gloss and anything else is an upcharge...


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> But you don't if the builder is correct... the Zeus neck is gloss and anything else is an upcharge...


actually spudmunkey is right. tung oil is the default option IF you get a maple neck. past that the builder doesn't specify if you can get tung oil without an upcharge on other neck woods. when in doubt "call my guyzzzzz"


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## technomancer (Jan 10, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> actually spudmunkey is right. tung oil is the default option IF you get a maple neck. past that the builder doesn't specify if you can get tung oil without an upcharge on other neck woods. when in doubt "call my guyzzzzz"



Either they fixed it or I misread it earlier as I thought it was really bizarre


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## Shoeless_jose (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> OMG MY EYES... and that one can't be blamed on a customer unless it is an artist since they just started taking orders  To be fair I would like either one of those colors separately, but together that is just horrible.
> 
> The proportioning on the 6 does look better at that angle though...



If the bevel was orange and the top was the blue, this would look sick, or the top all orange or top all blue and leave bevel natural, so close to being nice, although I'm still not a fan of the guitars, just that blue quilt looks sharp.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 10, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Either they fixed it or I misread it earlier as I thought it was really bizarre



That is why I call in my orders. So much easier to spec out. So much easier. Also being able to pay via paypal is more convenient and it doesn't autocharge your card when the build i finished.



Dineley said:


> If the bevel was orange and the top was the blue, this would look sick, or the top all orange or top all blue and leave bevel natural, so close to being nice, although I'm still not a fan of the guitars, just that blue quilt looks sharp.



Yeah I am a fan of some pretty "different" things but not a fan of this. I think this is less a show of craziness but more to show off the skill behind their finishes. 

That new graphite finish though! That thing is hot. They have a new tropical finish I like too.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 11, 2018)

technomancer said:


> I really hope to see more pics of those lambo colors on the Zeus in different lighting



Indeed. I've got a good handle on the orange because I think they've used that special color before, but the blue one, I don' t know...I can't get a read on what it actually looks like because the camera's flash is shining right back into the camera lense.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 11, 2018)

I think I hate this more than the blue/orange sparkle one. Trans white top and barn door body. Seriously, if they'd done this with a black body it'd look quite nice. hell, black goes with pretty much everything.


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## Albake21 (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think I hate this more than the blue/orange sparkle one. Trans white top and barn door body. Seriously, if they'd done this with a black body it'd look quite nice. hell, black goes with pretty much everything.


Huh... I personally really like this. But I'm also in the minority of liking the white with white burst. I know a lot of users here don't like the white.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think I hate this more than the blue/orange sparkle one. Trans white top and barn door body. Seriously, if they'd done this with a black body it'd look quite nice. hell, black goes with pretty much everything.



I think i would love this guitar...if you just cut the entire beloved part away.


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## technomancer (Jan 11, 2018)

I don't mind the white one... and the more I see of these the more I think they look better with a different colored top and body.



diagrammatiks said:


> I think i would love this guitar...if you just cut the entire beloved part away.



If you meant beveled I think that's more or less a Holdsworth


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## Bdtunn (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I think I hate this more than the blue/orange sparkle one. Trans white top and barn door body. Seriously, if they'd done this with a black body it'd look quite nice. hell, black goes with pretty much everything.




It looks like a larger guitar is behind it.


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## Randy (Jan 11, 2018)

Jeff Kiesel and I just have to be on polar opposite sides of the taste spectrum. I don't mind contrasting elements when used in specific, limited circumstances but it seems like his 'go-to' are this insane clashing color schemes with abrupt starts/stops between them. I mean, bravo if he digs it and he has customers that do but I personally think this has evolved to the point of being the identity of Kiesel Guitars (contrasting colors and bevels on everything), when the market for those kinds of things seems limited.


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## Albake21 (Jan 11, 2018)

I feel like a lot of people are missing the point here. Of course they are going to post these crazy looking builds. Not only will it attract attention, but I know a lot of people don't want to see the 100th black guitar again. That's the whole point of their social media. Doesn't mean they are the norm for actual production.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 11, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I feel like a lot of people are missing the point here. Of course they are going to post these crazy looking builds. Not only will it attract attention, but I know a lot of people don't want to see the 100th black guitar again. That's the whole point of their social media. Doesn't mean they are the norm for actual production.


exactly. Most of the stuff they post in their guitar of the day multiposts on FB are pretty nice/tasteful. The only time I see horrible finishes is when jeff is building shit for fun/NAMM. I'd swear he does it specifically to troll people lol


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## Albake21 (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> exactly. Most of the stuff they post in their guitar of the day multiposts on FB are pretty nice/tasteful. The only time I see horrible finishes is when jeff is building shit for fun/NAMM. I'd swear he does it specifically to troll people lol


I think he does it because simply... he can. He also knows that someone will buy it no matter how crazy it is. I know personally I love seeing the crazy shit he makes. I wouldn't ever buy one, but they are still cool to see and it helps me on deciding what I like and don't like.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 11, 2018)

I like this one.


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## Hollowway (Jan 11, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I feel like a lot of people are missing the point here. Of course they are going to post these crazy looking builds. Not only will it attract attention, but I know a lot of people don't want to see the 100th black guitar again. That's the whole point of their social media. Doesn't mean they are the norm for actual production.



Well, I think he could make the point of what cool things could be done WITHOUT making it hideous. Look what Skervesen is doing, for instance. Or Padalka, or any of the other guys doing cool color combos, bursts, and bevels. I just think Kiesel doesn’t have the eye of an artist, and they try to copy cool ideas, but no one there is an actual designer.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Well, I think he could make the point of what cool things could be done WITHOUT making it hideous. Look what Skervesen is doing, for instance. Or Padalka, or any of the other guys doing cool color combos, bursts, and bevels. I just think Kiesel doesn’t have the eye of an artist, and they try to copy cool ideas, but no one there is an actual designer.


skervesen has done more than their fair share of ugly poplar topped guitars, though I do like the outlines and bevels on their guitars way more.


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## Hollowway (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> skervesen has done more than their fair share of ugly poplar topped guitars, though I do like the outlines and bevels on their guitars way more.



True. But that’s like saying Michael Jordan missed some shots, vs. me playing basketball.  
John Cage used to compose music where he actively attempted to avoid any sense of tonality. And it turned out to be really difficult, because tonality can appear to show up almost randomly. Jeff has the same gift with specs. It takes a lot of talent to find that many combinations that DON’T work together. 

In all reality, my tastes are pretty out there, and I probably like more combos than not, so I’m not really against Kiesel for that reason. My main beef with these guitars is the actual designs. I kinda dig some of the crazy combos!


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## xzacx (Jan 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> I just think Kiesel doesn’t have the eye of an artist, and they try to copy cool ideas, but no one there is an actual designer.



This sums up my thoughts exactly, and helps explain why so much of what they do doesn't look quite right.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> True. But that’s like saying Michael Jordan missed some shots, vs. me playing basketball.



I missed several thousand fewer free-throws than Wilt Chamberlain. 



Hollowway said:


> John Cage used to compose music where he actively attempted to avoid any sense of tonality. And it turned out to be really difficult, because tonality can appear to show up almost randomly.



I was working on an office build-out job where someone was laying carpet. The carpet tiles were ordered as 98% of them being gray and 2% of them were red. They told the carpet guy to randomize the 2% red tiles around. After he spend a couple hours "ramdomly" placing the red tiles, it turns out that by trying to be purposefully random, he actually generated a pattern that we could all see. He had to go back and move tiles around.


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## wannabguitarist (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> skervesen has done more than their fair share of ugly poplar topped guitars, though I do like the outlines and bevels on their guitars way more.



I'm definitely in the minority here, but other than their Blackmachine clones Skervs are generally worse than Kiesels


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## technomancer (Jan 11, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> I'm definitely in the minority here, but other than their Blackmachine clones Skervs are generally worse than Kiesels



I thought I was the only one that hated most of their designs


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 11, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> True. But that’s like saying Michael Jordan missed some shots, vs. me playing basketball.
> John Cage used to compose music where he actively attempted to avoid any sense of tonality. And it turned out to be really difficult, because tonality can appear to show up almost randomly. Jeff has the same gift with specs. It takes a lot of talent to find that many combinations that DON’T work together.
> 
> In all reality, my tastes are pretty out there, and I probably like more combos than not, so I’m not really against Kiesel for that reason. My main beef with these guitars is the actual designs. I kinda dig some of the crazy combos!


See i'm the opposite. I can visualize what a good clean version of their models look like so seeing the equivalent of guitar herpes on an otherwise solid design makes me sad. People rag on this model, but it's not like most other headless singlecuts look that much better imo(barring padalka's saturn, which i love). I greatly prefer this design to the chris letchford headless, which is so lazy imo.


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## Hollowway (Jan 11, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> See i'm the opposite. I can visualize what a good clean version of their models look like so seeing the equivalent of guitar herpes on an otherwise solid design makes me sad. People rag on this model, but it's not like most other headless singlecuts look that much better imo(barring padalka's saturn, which i love). I greatly prefer this design to the chris letchford headless, which is so lazy imo.



Agreed. The Letchford one is terrible. IMO, a headless guitar can't simply be a regular guitar with the back cut out and the HS lopped off. That is simply jumping on the popular headless bandwagon. Pretty soon we're going to be able to buy headlesscoin, the latest trend combining headless guitars and cryptocurrency. 

When OLA did the strandberg, he was designing a guitar from the ground up. Same with Steinberger. But these Kiesels, the Mayones Hyrdra (don't get my started on that misnomer) the Legator Ghost (blech), even the Ran model, all are guitars that would not have been created if not for the current headless trend. They offer very little other than having the headstock chopped off. 

Anyway, I know I'm shaking my fist at the kids on my lawn, but I'm just suuuuper particular about design, and the integrity and ethics of it. I know making guitars is a business, but I don't see why you'd have to just jump on the latest trends to make a quick buck. In a music context, there are plenty of bands that did their own thing, were true to themselves, and succeeded. Then there are the bands who do focus groups to get songs, lyrics, chord progressions, that they know will sell. I hate those bands. And I hate companies that make me feel like their making guitars in the same way. So the rush to market to make a buck bothers me.

(And, I'm aware that Jeff Kiesel is not necessarily doing any of that. I have no idea what is going on in his mind. I just know that there are a lot of new Kiesel headless guitars, and I'm not a huge fan of any of them.)


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## spudmunkey (Jan 12, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Agreed. The Letchford one is terrible. IMO, a headless guitar can't simply be a regular guitar with the back cut out and the HS lopped off.



There's a market for something LIKE that. Not necessarily a big one, and I'm not saying the Letchford is a good execution of the concept, but there are a LOT of people who didn't like the Vader solely because they said it would look tiny on them. To me, a headless has it's own function over other guitars independent of other ergonomic designs/features. Is it an important one as a part of a holistic design of an 'ergonomic' guitar? Absolutely. Like...you wouldn't design a race car without good brakes, but at the same time you can still put good brakes on a sedan for improved performance.

So to those folks who want a guitar that looks and feels "normal", a guitar without a headstock that still has a normal-ish sized body will still get many of the other benefits of a headless guitar: It'll still take up the same smaller footprint on a smaller stage or crowded rehersal space, it's still lighter, it's still jettisoning the headstock tuners and potential issues with nut binding, it's less neck-heavy, the neck will be stiffer, it uses the same cases so it should still fit in all the same overhead compartments and car trunks, etc.

To me, a complaint about how the body itself isn't smaller is similar to complaining about an iPad that's too thick. At a certain point, the thickness isn't preventing or causing any portability problems, so making it thinner doesn't necessarily improve things _that much_. There's also an entire market of people who think that a guitar with less mass has "less tone" (whatever that means, but you know what I mean). And in the case of the Letchford, while the body width is still pretty similar to other headless models, it's also the thinnest body they sell on any model. So it's potentially within ounces of a Vader or Zeus, anyway.


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## technomancer (Jan 12, 2018)

Despite Jeff's usual crap about 6A+ woods, this thing is stunning... shudder to know what he is charging for it though. Also really wish they had done more pics of it as it looked awesome in the videos.

View media item 603


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## spudmunkey (Jan 12, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Despite Jeff's usual crap about 6A+ woods, this thing is stunning... shudder to know what he is charging for it though.



Well, I imagine something around $4-5k. It's got a cocobolo neck and a flamed koa body (not just a koa body with a little bit of incidental flame), and I *believe* that's their highest grade "master grade" koa top. It also looks like it has a Ziricote electronics cavity cover, which doesn't match anything but adds cost. ha!


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## technomancer (Jan 12, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Well, I imagine something around $4-5k. It's got a cocobolo neck and a flamed koa body (not just a koa body with a little bit of incidental flame), and I *believe* that's their highest grade "master grade" koa top. It also looks like it has a Ziricote electronics cavity cover, which doesn't match anything but adds cost. ha!



It's a koa neck according to the video... and the body is typical good quality Koa again judging from the video regardless of what they claim. Unlike most of their audience I've actually bought wood for guitars before and Jeff's claims are hilarious. Either he uses the worst priced source for lumber ever or he just makes shit up on the fly.

Not to say that isn't a beautiful guitar with some damn nice wood.


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## Hollowway (Jan 12, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> There's a market for something LIKE that. Not necessarily a big one, and I'm not saying the Letchford is a good execution of the concept, but there are a LOT of people who didn't like the Vader solely because they said it would look tiny on them. To me, a headless has it's own function over other guitars independent of other ergonomic designs/features. Is it an important one as a part of a holistic design of an 'ergonomic' guitar? Absolutely. Like...you wouldn't design a race car without good brakes, but at the same time you can still put good brakes on a sedan for improved performance.
> 
> So to those folks who want a guitar that looks and feels "normal", a guitar without a headstock that still has a normal-ish sized body will still get many of the other benefits of a headless guitar: It'll still take up the same smaller footprint on a smaller stage or crowded rehersal space, it's still lighter, it's still jettisoning the headstock tuners and potential issues with nut binding, it's less neck-heavy, the neck will be stiffer, it uses the same cases so it should still fit in all the same overhead compartments and car trunks, etc.
> 
> To me, a complaint about how the body itself isn't smaller is similar to complaining about an iPad that's too thick. At a certain point, the thickness isn't preventing or causing any portability problems, so making it thinner doesn't necessarily improve things _that much_. There's also an entire market of people who think that a guitar with less mass has "less tone" (whatever that means, but you know what I mean). And in the case of the Letchford, while the body width is still pretty similar to other headless models, it's also the thinnest body they sell on any model. So it's potentially within ounces of a Vader or Zeus, anyway.



Yeah, the main issue I have with the Letchford guitar is that the bridge is in the same area as a regular guitar, so there's not a huge need for it to be headless (IMO). I never thought about it, but I totally get people wanting a "bigger" guitar than the Vader. I personally like it because it's soooo tiny. Just today I picked up the soft case for my Vader, and thought, "Man, this is like a kid's guitar case!" It's hard to believe I put a 27" scale guitar in there!

Also, as an aside, I lurk quite a bit over on the BBS, and I always like your posts over there. You're very even keeled, and thoughtful in your responses.


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## A-Branger (Jan 13, 2018)

yeah but thats kinda the point of headless guitars, that due to the tunners in the bridge, the guitar body has to be smaller so you can acces them. Not quite a "traveler guitar" but kinda almost there. Strangbers are tinny

Its like when people say "can you make a headless bass of that". it kinda beats the point, the bass body would remain exactly the same as the bass bridges are already at the edge of the body. The only thing you are doing is chopping the headstock off for no reason rather than aesthetics. Unless you have a fender style bass, in which it does improve a lot the lack of weight

but then again there are people that jsut want that^, the looks of it. I still think headless basses are the most useless thing. Guitars are cool as the system push you to design a smaller/different body. Basses is jsut a cut the headstock off and be done


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## Lorcan Ward (Jan 13, 2018)

technomancer said:


> It's a koa neck according to the video... and the body is typical good quality Koa again judging from the video regardless of what they claim. Unlike most of their audience I've actually bought wood for guitars before and Jeff's claims are hilarious. Either he uses the worst priced source for lumber ever or he just makes shit up on the fly.



Its insane how big a mark up most manufacturers and builders charge on wood. A lot of guys live off just buying from source and then selling to builders with a big mark up which then mark it up for the customer.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2018)

jeff's personal build. cocobolo board, resin top. not a fan of mixing the pickup colors like that , otherwise I dig the build.


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## technomancer (Jan 13, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Well, I imagine something around $4-5k. It's got a cocobolo neck and a flamed koa body (not just a koa body with a little bit of incidental flame), and I *believe* that's their highest grade "master grade" koa top. It also looks like it has a Ziricote electronics cavity cover, which doesn't match anything but adds cost. ha!



To follow up we are talking about two different guitars... the one I posted is the guitar of the week they put a video up for and it does not have a Ziricote back plate or Cocobolo neck. I see the one you are talking about now, KnightBrolaire has it in the post above mine, and yeah that is a sweet piece of Koa they used for the body. That is Jeff's guitar and has a resin top on it, they put it up on Facebook... love the back but not a fan of the front at all 

Also loving the whole "resin top" thing. "Ok guys, in this order of wood we got a bunch of shit that is too broken up / soft / full of holes to use, what do we do with it? I KNOW! Let't dump colored glue on it to harden it up, call it a resin top, and the make it an upcharge!!!!"


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 13, 2018)

Why do normal guitars even need all that extra mass behind the bridge...other then it’s the way it was always done? Anyone know?

Resin seems to be in this year. 
In 10 years all guitars are just going to be 100 piece laminates of glue, resin, and filler. People are just going to forget about the wood entirely.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2018)

technomancer said:


> To follow up we are talking about two different guitars... the one I posted is the guitar of the week they put a video up for and it does not have a Ziricote back plate or Cocobolo neck. I see the one you are talking about now, KnightBrolaire has it in the post above mine, and yeah that is a sweet piece of Koa they used for the body. That is Jeff's guitar and has a resin top on it, they put it up on Facebook... love the back but not a fan of the front at all
> 
> Also loving the whole "resin top" thing. "Ok guys, in this order of wood we got a bunch of shit that is too broken up / soft / full of holes to use, what do we do with it? I KNOW! Let't dump colored glue on it to harden it up, call it a resin top, and the make it an upcharge!!!!"


he's just jumping on the bandwagon that alpher instruments started. both of the companies are ordering from californiawoods where they do those epoxy stabilized tops. some of the tops/color combos out there are just insane.




The purple middle one has leds under the resin that lets you play with the the coloring of the resin. It's really an awesome build. here's another shot of it with the lights on a diff setting:


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 13, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> he's just jumping on the bandwagon that alpher instruments started. both of the companies are ordering from californiawoods where they do those epoxy stabilized tops. some of the tops/color combos out there are just insane.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Y even use wood at all at that point


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Y even use wood at all at that point


did you look at the tops? there's still a fair amount of wood in them (not that it matters, buckeye and most other burls have the consistency of cardboard if you don't stabilize them somehow).


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 13, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> did you look at the tops? there's still a fair amount of wood in them (not that it matters, buckeye and most other burls have the consistency of cardboard if you don't stabilize them somehow).



I kno. But like y tho. 

Why not just too your guitar with a resin plastic hook filled with leds and Christmas lights and laser pointers. 

Kidding not kidding. 

I guess I get it. People need to have their guitars look like prom queens. Meanwhile the last guitar I specced is just a mahogony body dyed black.


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## Hollowway (Jan 13, 2018)

Yeah, those Alpher instruments are cool. I'd love to own one someday, but I think I still prefer the actual wood. Too much of the coloring in there looks like it's something other than wood. Not that it's not cool - just different. And I have to say, I like the burl tops that Kiesel does, but I'm still not a huge fan of the amount that gets cut off on the bevel. I think it's neat to see a little of the body when looking at the top (I'm actually a big fan of the arm bevel showing the body wood), but too much of it ruins the effect for me. The Aries and this new one just cut off too much for my tastes.


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## technomancer (Jan 13, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> Yeah, those Alpher instruments are cool. I'd love to own one someday, but I think I still prefer the actual wood. Too much of the coloring in there looks like it's something other than wood. Not that it's not cool - just different. And I have to say, I like the burl tops that Kiesel does, but I'm still not a huge fan of the amount that gets cut off on the bevel. I think it's neat to see a little of the body when looking at the top (I'm actually a big fan of the arm bevel showing the body wood), but too much of it ruins the effect for me. The Aries and this new one just cut off too much for my tastes.



I actually don't mind the bevel on these, I think because it actually flows with the shape vs the Aries where it just looks off... and I am an on-record bevel hater 

That said if I want an acrylic guitar I'll go buy one for $400... I don't need to pay a substantial upcharge for it


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> I kno. But like y tho.
> 
> Why not just too your guitar with a resin plastic hook filled with leds and Christmas lights and laser pointers.
> 
> ...


Different strokes for different folks.  I like blinged out guitars and subtle ones.


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## MegaTones (Jan 13, 2018)

I think the only Kiesel design I have ever liked was the K series. Everything else looks like shit to me, like unfinished drawings/designs that haven't been refined yet.


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## narad (Jan 13, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> he's just jumping on the bandwagon that alpher instruments started.



Which was already being used by wood turning community for forever.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2018)

narad said:


> Which was already being used by wood turning community for forever.


true, it's just that for whatever reason nobody was making really making stabilized guitar tops that way


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 13, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> true, it's just that for whatever reason nobody was making really making stabilized guitar tops that way




California Woods wouldn't be selling them marked as guitar tops if they weren't made for exactly that.


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## xzacx (Jan 13, 2018)

I don’t like the resin top, but I actually think it’s kinda cool how he matched the dark and light colored pickups to the dark and light colored areas of the top.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 13, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> California Woods wouldn't be selling them marked as guitar tops if they weren't made for exactly that.


they're one of the few companies that actually does stabilized tops for guitars. Most people doing stabilized pieces are making knife scales or other small pieces like that.


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## narad (Jan 13, 2018)

Man, just watched the video on facebook of Jeff talking about the koa one with the gold covers. It looks really good! I'm actually a little tempted!


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## technomancer (Jan 13, 2018)

narad said:


> Man, just watched the video on facebook of Jeff talking about the koa one with the gold covers. It looks really good! I'm actually a little tempted!



Watch the guitar of the week video of it too, it actually gets played and there are some pretty good views of it as well.

https://www.facebook.com/kieselguitars/videos/2021802884769670


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## spudmunkey (Jan 14, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> he's just jumping on the bandwagon that alpher instruments started. both of the companies are ordering from californiawoods where they do those epoxy stabilized tops. some of the tops/color combos out there are just insane.



Blame the customers. People have been sending in their own tops from California Woods for about a year. He was even hesitant to use them at first and originally seemed like he didn't like the first one he was sent before he used it. He used it, and it got a lot of positive feedback...just like the following several that customers sent in on their own. It wasn't until the Vanquish run that Kiesel bought a few tops and bundled them with the "Stage 3" package. Not all of them sold in the run, so a few more have popped up since that run, but i believe he's said he has no plans to make them a regular option... but he'll use them of someone wants to send them in and play the HUGE (my word) upcharge.

I feel like customer demand drove this more than any "Alpher Instruments bandwagon."


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## spudmunkey (Jan 14, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> , I like the burl tops that Kiesel does, but I'm still not a huge fan of the amount that gets cut off on the bevel. I think it's neat to see a little of the body when looking at the top (I'm actually a big fan of the arm bevel showing the body wood), but too much of it ruins the effect for me. The Aries and this new one just cut off too much for my tastes.



Think about it this way: with the headless guitars having smaller bodies, they seem to get one-piece-tops pretty regularly. Its possible that LESS wood is wasted because they can can get two smaller guitars out of one billet where as a large body, they would book match it and need both halves.

We've actually been shown this in action on one of his "pick your top" videos. Their pale moon ebony tops are $1000 (I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with their pricing, just stating it). In one particular video, he looked at it, went and grabbed a Vader template, and saw they could get two tops out of this one board but only if it was a HH or Vader. Anything else would have needed two pieces, with a lot more waste cut off.

After showing that they could get two tops out of it, he said if two people called in for this piece of wood and only for HH or Vader, they would get it for $600. To someone who might have considered it anyway, that's $400 savings. For kiesel, by selling two tops for $1,200 from a board which would have only brought in $1000 on any other model, they get an additional $200 to help cover the free extra minutes of more- careful bandsaw work to separate two tops without running one, and whatever extra few minutes of attention they need to make sure the right halves were kept track of for the right orders...and in the end, less wood was wasted.

With a model like the Zeus which is both compact AND beveled, we'll probably see a very high qty of one piece tops which don't have to be "centred" so they can be strategic and efficient with smaller pieces that otherwise would have been scrap.



technomancer said:


> To follow up we are talking about two different guitars... the one I posted is the guitar of the week they put a video up for and it does not have a Ziricote back plate or Cocobolo neck. I see the one you are talking about now, KnightBrolaire has it in the post above mine, and yeah that is a sweet piece of Koa they used for the body. That is Jeff's guitar and has a resin top on it, they put it up on Facebook...



Ah, you are correct. My bad. I thought they were the same guitar. D'oh!



Hollowway said:


> Also, as an aside, I lurk quite a bit over on the BBS, and I always like your posts over there. You're very even keeled, and thoughtful in your responses.


 
Thanks for the comment, dude!


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 15, 2018)




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## Soya (Jan 15, 2018)

Sorry Jeffbro, that's a solid nope from me.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 15, 2018)

i kind of like this one.


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## technomancer (Jan 15, 2018)

You know I'm thinking one of these in a six string trem with maple neck / alder body / birdseye board with natural back and sides and the top in either Tropic or Grape Jelly might be cool...


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 15, 2018)

technomancer said:


> You know I'm thinking one of these in a six string trem with maple neck / alder body / birdseye board with natural back and sides and the top in either Tropic or Grape Jelly might be cool...


I always feel weird about seeing solid colored tops on natural bodies, unless it's black. Black goes with everything.


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## technomancer (Jan 15, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I always feel weird about seeing solid colored tops on natural bodies, unless it's black. Black goes with everything.



Well, if this didn't look off balance in a single color I'd go solid without a top... and if I could get a decent top instead of risk crap for a $500 upcharge (vs $1000 for Kiesel special 6A Artisan blah blah) I'd go with Koa.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 15, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Well, if this didn't look off balance in a single color I'd go solid without a top... and if I could get a decent top instead of risk crap for a $500 upcharge (vs $1000 for Kiesel special 6A Artisan blah blah) I'd go with Koa.


That's actually the one of the really good things with Kiesel from what I've seen, they tend to hook people up with really figured tops. finding really figured koa is hard ime, but kiesel seems to have a good stash of the stuff. Obviously the upcharge isn't ideal but that's part of why I'd rather get walnut or maple stained brown instead of koa.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 15, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> That's actually the one of the really good things with Kiesel from what I've seen, they tend to hook people up with really figured tops. finding really figured koa is hard ime, but kiesel seems to have a good stash of the stuff. Obviously the upcharge isn't ideal but that's part of why I'd rather get walnut or maple stained brown instead of koa.



Seems like it's been a lot more hit or miss in the last few years unless you're willing to pay a hefty (in my opinion, exorbitant) premium. 

You used to ALWAYS get a great top and they'd even try to match a similar top from other guitars, for free or with something like a $200 fee depending on workload and customer.

Back when it was Carvin, if you got a crappy top you'd send it back and get a rebuild. It cost Carvin money to do poor tops.


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## technomancer (Jan 15, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Seems like it's been a lot more hit or miss in the last few years unless you're willing to pay a hefty (in my opinion, exorbitant) premium.
> 
> You used to ALWAYS get a great top and they'd even try to match a similar top from other guitars, for free or with something like a $200 fee depending on workload and customer.
> 
> Back when it was Carvin, if you got a crappy top you'd send it back and get a rebuild. It cost Carvin money to do poor tops.



Nailed it exactly. Really don't want to drop $500 when odds are better than average of getting a crap top and having to send it back.

I also wouldn't mind a buckeye burl top but again no way in hell I will ever order something that is non-returnable.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 15, 2018)

I did wish they were more flexible with some options and their return policy. Like... on some requests, sure...make it non-returnable because they are undesirable and they would have a hard time to sell it should they get it back.

Buy sometimes, they make some guitars non-returnable because there are upcharge that they would have a hard time recouping should they get it back and have to sell it as a GIS at a discount.

In those cases, I wish they would just still allow the refund, less those upcharges.

For example, let's say you want a 5-piece neck, which incorporates flamed maple. They charge for the 5 piece its based on, then an upcharge for the full flamed male neck upgrade (because they have to slice up a flamed maple neck blank). Ok, fine...I get that, but then its made non- returnable because this vey expensive guitar will be hard to re-sell since an upgrade like that isn't necessarily worth the same to someone shipping for a GIS. They would have to mark it down a he amount to still it.

But... If they would just let the person return it where their refund would just be reduced by the price of the non-returnable options, they could price it as normal because they wild have already captured this cost.

If they charge a $400 upgrade to a higher grade top, they should still let the person return it, less that $400 fee. Its not like they would have a hard time selling that upgraded guitar at the normal price!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 15, 2018)

Or they just keep Option 50s for special circumstances and customers like they used to. 

A specific top never used to be a non-refundable option unless it was customer supplied wood. 

They need to decide whether they want to be a real, true custom shop or stick with thier semi-custom format. Obviously having it both ways isn't working out well from a customer service standpoint.

Not to mention it seems they've been using the Option 50 excuse to not deal with defective instruments, which were ALWAYS covered under Carvin, Opt.50 or not.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 15, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I did wish they were more flexible with some options and their return policy. Like... on some requests, sure...make it non-returnable because they are undesirable and they would have a hard time to sell it should they get it back.
> 
> Buy sometimes, they make some guitars non-returnable because there are upcharge that they would have a hard time recouping should they get it back and have to sell it as a GIS at a discount.
> 
> ...


I'm kind of glad that they make some stuff non-returnable* if only* because it floods the secondhand market with superdecked out guitars. I can't count the number of times I've seen k-series or super fancy topped kiesels on reverb. Hell that's how I got my ziricote topped vm8, some other dude bit the bullet on fancy pants wood choices and his loss was my gain.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 15, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm kind of glad that they make some stuff non-returnable* if only* because it floods the secondhand market with superdecked out guitars. I can't count the number of times I've seen k-series or super fancy topped kiesels on reverb. Hell that's how I got my ziricote topped vm8, some other dude bit the bullet on fancy pants wood choices and his loss was my gain.



That's how it's always been. Some rube gets crazy on the builder checking boxes because it sounds cool and has to be good because expensive.

A few months later they wonder why they spent $3k+ on a guitar that's not really that amazingly built and doesn't balance well and doesn't sound right. Then they sell them at a loss.

The market used to be flooded with DC400 and DC727/747 models decked out.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 15, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's how it's always been. Some rube gets crazy on the builder checking boxes because it sounds cool and has to be good because expensive.
> 
> A few months later they wonder why they spent $3k on a guitar that's not really that amazingly built and doesn't balance well and doesn't sound right. Then they sell them at a loss.
> 
> The market used to be flooded with DC400 and DC727/747 models decked out.



except now people think that their used kiesel is worth 3k and it stays on reverb for like a year.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 15, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I did wish they were more flexible with some options and their return policy. Like... on some requests, sure...make it non-returnable because they are undesirable and they would have a hard time to sell it should they get it back.
> 
> Buy sometimes, they make some guitars non-returnable because there are upcharge that they would have a hard time recouping should they get it back and have to sell it as a GIS at a discount.
> 
> ...



like one person would ever agree to this.


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## marcwormjim (Jan 16, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> except now people think that their used kiesel is worth 3k and it stays on reverb for like a year.



I once went through a dozen of those listings to see how hard the sellers were hyping, and had a good laugh upon seeing the sellers were Kiesel. 

If I recall, someone here used the “make an offer” button and was told off for bidding under the listed price. I don’t recall what happened after the guy asked why they would even have the option to make an offer - or even be on Reverb in the first place to list their Guitars In Stock section.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 16, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> like one person would ever agree to this.



Right now, those guitars are completely non-returnable. Giving this option gives them an out. That said, you are probably right when it comes to the higher prices options because one could probably sell it without too much more loss, compared to a $1000 pale moon ebony top.

I guess my brain is thinking about some of the lower cost things. Like... you pay them $100 to hand select a top with a certain type of pattern, and that (at least at one time) made it non-returnable... Even though everything about it is "standard". Some may be more likely to splurge on a 6A top upgrade knowing that they could still get 100% of the rest of the build refunded should they not bond with it. On my Aries, I got a non-standard finish which was a $50 charge. That option alone waived the 10-day. I'm sure lots of folks would have been ok with buying a build like that knowing they could return it even if it meant a $50 "restocking" fee.


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## Hollowway (Jan 16, 2018)

marcwormjim said:


> I once went through a dozen of those listings to see how hard the sellers were hyping, and had a good laugh upon seeing the sellers were Kiesel.
> 
> If I recall, someone here used the “make an offer” button and was told off for bidding under the listed price. I don’t recall what happened after the guy asked why they would even have the option to make an offer - or even be on Reverb in the first place to list their Guitars In Stock section.



Yeah, that was me. I bid like $100 less than list for a Becker Numbers, and they said no, because they can’t take anything less than asking. It was also at that time I called to ask why the regular price is different in the builder than on the in-stock page, and Mike said they inflate the price on the in-stock page, and then discount it back to the regular price. Which seemed dishonest at the least. But he said that’s just the way they have to do it on the in-stock sales.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 16, 2018)

They KNOW they csn turn off the "Make an offer" button on reverb right?


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 16, 2018)

the off-white/cream pickups just don't work imo.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 16, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Right now, those guitars are completely non-returnable. Giving this option gives them an out. That said, you are probably right when it comes to the higher prices options because one could probably sell it without too much more loss, compared to a $1000 pale moon ebony top.
> 
> I guess my brain is thinking about some of the lower cost things. Like... you pay them $100 to hand select a top with a certain type of pattern, and that (at least at one time) made it non-returnable... Even though everything about it is "standard". Some may be more likely to splurge on a 6A top upgrade knowing that they could still get 100% of the rest of the build refunded should they not bond with it. On my Aries, I got a non-standard finish which was a $50 charge. That option alone waived the 10-day. I'm sure lots of folks would have been ok with buying a build like that knowing they could return it even if it meant a $50 "restocking" fee.



It comes out a wash at the end of the day. If you return it and lose 500 or sell it and lose 500. You have the same amount of money. But, psychologically it's a big cluster fuck.


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## marcwormjim (Jan 16, 2018)

That doesn’t even touch Kiesel accepting a defective return for “evaluation”, then the buyer calling (after no word) to hear “There’s NOTHING wrong with your guitar; and it’s been repackaged to be sent back to you”...with no option for the brand’s “no questions asked 10 day return policy” refund offered unless you want to be “banned from purchasing a Kiesel guitar for life”, in the words of a salesperson.

I repeat: Guy was told that if he used the advertised return policy to be refunded for the defective build, he would be banned from future purchases.

This was a 50+ page thread. But every other week on ss.org: “LOL look at that fugly Vader but really serious GAS for Vader up in here lol wonder if theyll put fluences in NGD BASICALLY BEST GUITAR I EVER PLAYED WENT WITH LITHIUMS

FOR SALE 8 STRING LITHIUM SET WILL TRADE FOR FLUENCES

FOR SALE LEIK NEWWWW VADER BASIXALLY NEVER BEEN OLAYED JUST DIDNT BOND WITH IT SELLING TO SAVE UP FOR CUSTOM VADER 

NGD IMPORT JUGG 7 DECIDED IM NOT A HEADLESS GUY.” etc.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Right now, those guitars are completely non-returnable. Giving this option gives them an out. That said, you are probably right when it comes to the higher prices options because one could probably sell it without too much more loss, compared to a $1000 pale moon ebony top.
> 
> I guess my brain is thinking about some of the lower cost things. Like... you pay them $100 to hand select a top with a certain type of pattern, and that (at least at one time) made it non-returnable... Even though everything about it is "standard". Some may be more likely to splurge on a 6A top upgrade knowing that they could still get 100% of the rest of the build refunded should they not bond with it. On my Aries, I got a non-standard finish which was a $50 charge. That option alone waived the 10-day. I'm sure lots of folks would have been ok with buying a build like that knowing they could return it even if it meant a $50 "restocking" fee.



They're still returnable, you just have to post the ordeal online and shame them into accepting it. 

Since 9/10 times its due to Kiesel screwing up, it's usually pretty easy to shame them. 

I guess the hype machine behind Kiesel is strong enough to make up for this stuff...for now.


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 16, 2018)

I still think they should just cut the bevel part away.


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## technomancer (Jan 16, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the off-white/cream pickups just don't work imo.



It's a creamsickle man  Seriously though don't mind the color scheme but I do absolutely hate bright colors in satin finishes, just takes all the impact out of them 

I think one of the worst things that has come out of the modern metal scene is artists working with manufacturers to convince people that don't know any better that cheap satin finishes are somehow a premium feature. It's not, it's a cost cutting measure to up profits for the manufacturer and endorser. Kiesel "Raw Tone" is my favorite on this list... use less paint, less labor as no buffing etc, wears like crap and marks if you look at it wrong so it's not returnable and people are stupid enough to actually pay a premium for it. </grumpy old man mode>


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 16, 2018)

technomancer said:


> It's a creamsickle man  Seriously though don't mind the color scheme but I do absolutely hate bright colors in satin finishes, just takes all the impact out of them
> 
> I think one of the worst things that has come out of the modern metal scene is artists working with manufacturers to convince people that don't know any better that cheap satin finishes are somehow a premium feature. It's not, it's a cost cutting measure to up profits for the manufacturer and endorser. Kiesel "Raw Tone" is my favorite on this list... use less paint, less labor as no buffing etc, wears like crap and marks if you look at it wrong so it's not returnable and people are stupid enough to actually pay a premium for it. </grumpy old man mode>



i like satin 

you hate that more then the trend of gluing 11 pieces of super uncharged wood = boutique guitar?


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## technomancer (Jan 16, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> i like satin
> 
> you hate that more then the trend of gluing 11 pieces of super uncharged wood = boutique guitar?



Eh that is easy to avoid as only a couple manufacturers are doing it... satin seems to be everywhere and is becoming more prevalent.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 16, 2018)

Satin isn't the best finish at all in terms of durability, or long-term consistent aesthetics....so it's definitely surprising how common it's become. Most guitars are gloss, so satin finish feels more "luxurious", similar to perhaps new Elixir strings on guitars in stores. But if you don't know what you're getting into, the ownership experience can be a letdown when you get shiny spots from friction. It's not as bad on lighter finishes and natural wood finishes, but on darker finishes you see the shiny spots from every angle.

I'm still a huge fan of satin necks, because even though they do shine up over time, it still doesn't seem as sticky as a from-the-start gloss somehow, and you can always knock down the shine...but after owning a few, I would never do a satin body again. Gloss on the body, and satin or tung on the neck, please.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2018)

The "secret" to gloss necks is to polish and clean them regularly. Even when you get a brand new guitar, take a microfiber rag with some polishing compound (Meguiar's and Mother's are my favorites but 3M and Turtle Wax both make good ones too) and give it about 15 to 30 minutes of rubing and swirling, then just keep it clean. Wash it with a damp rag regularly/with use. 

Gloss finishes are smoother than matte. They just take a tiny amount of care to stay extra slippery.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 16, 2018)

Yeah, I always found polished finishes to still be "sticky", even when polished/waxed. I don't sweat a lot, but I sweat easily. Texture of a good, sprayed-on satin (like what Kiesel uses, Taylor uses on their 300+ series, etc...NOT like the "waxy" satin Taylor uses on their 100 and 200 series, and like what Gibson uses most of the time), to me, reduces friction.

It's like how there's a reason you never see a mirror-polished non-stick frying pan.

The worst ever was my Les Paul Studio from the early 90s. Black finish, I believe it was nitro (but could be wrong) combined with a whole summer of outdoor gigs...just turned me off gloss finishes forever.

Thankfully, the gloss Kiesel uses is a polyester, so it's about as slick of a gloss finish as you can get...so my used Carvin AC375 with a gloss neck still gets quite a bit of playtime over my full-sized taylor which has a great satin neck.


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## technomancer (Jan 16, 2018)

To clarify I was talking about body finishes. Neck I can do either way as for example the gloss necks on my PRS guitars cause me no trouble at all.


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## will_shred (Jan 16, 2018)

is the Kiesel CS really that bad? Before the takeover I bought a V3 amp from Carvin, and I decided it just wasn't for me so I returned it no questions asked. I can't say I had any issues with their customer service, but I've never bought a guitar from them.


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## technomancer (Jan 16, 2018)

will_shred said:


> is the Kiesel CS really that bad? Before the takeover I bought a V3 amp from Carvin, and I decided it just wasn't for me so I returned it no questions asked. I can't say I had any issues with their customer service, but I've never bought a guitar from them.



On average their guitars are pretty good. There have been some real horror stories posted here and other places though. I believe the threads are still on here if you search.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 16, 2018)

There have definitely been people with really bad experiences. It still seems like a small number compared to the 5,000/year they sell, but those bad stories really did suck. A minority for sure, but a loud minority with valid concerns.

It seems like there's mostly 3 levels:
1: Great! Planning my next 5! (full disclosure, this is me)
2: It's good, but didn't bond.
3: Experience was literally cancer/hitler.


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## technomancer (Jan 16, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> There have definitely been people with really bad experiences. It still seems like a small number compared to the 5,000/year they sell, but those bad stories really did suck. A minority for sure, but a loud minority with valid concerns.
> 
> It seems like there's mostly 3 levels:
> 1: Great! Planning my next 5!
> ...


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2018)

will_shred said:


> is the Kiesel CS really that bad? Before the takeover I bought a V3 amp from Carvin, and I decided it just wasn't for me so I returned it no questions asked. I can't say I had any issues with their customer service, but I've never bought a guitar from them.



I would never say Kiesel makes bad guitars or that they're a bad company. In fact I happen to think they generally make really good guitars at an outstanding price point.

That said, when they do screw up it can be like pulling teeth to get the situation involved. It wasn't always that way, which is why it's pretty jarring to guys like me who have been ordering guitars from them going back for nearly two decades.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 16, 2018)

technomancer said:


> On average their guitars are pretty good. There have been some real horror stories posted here and other places though. I believe the threads are still on here if you search.


Every brand has had horror stories at some point though. I think Kiesel's are more public because they push their social media so hard


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Every brand has had horror stories at some point though. I think Kiesel's are more public because they push their social media so hard



They tout thier "10 day no questions asked return policy", and have for decades. When they don't follow through it gets messy.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> They tout thier "10 day no questions asked return policy", and have for decades. When they don't follow through it gets messy.


Oh yeah. I've never had a problem with them. I have 3 at the moment. 

The 10 day trial only lasts if you get an option that they can't turn around and resell. Good example is their raw tone finish. You don't have a 10 day trial. 
Poplar burl and buckeye burl on non-returnable. 

Only reason they have these rules is because people would order a guitar, not be happy with it, and expect a refund for a custom (semi custom) instrument. 

I've been a pain in the past with them. My one guitar I kept calling in to change it. I went through 6 different finish changes before making up my mind. Of course after I did this they no longer allow changes after the order. 

All in all my experience has been quite great.

They do warn you ahead of time that things can void trials or returns. It's not like you just find out about it later.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 16, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Oh yeah. I've never had a problem with them. I have 3 at the moment.
> 
> The 10 day trial only lasts if you get an option that they can't turn around and resell. Good example is their raw tone finish. You don't have a 10 day trial.
> Poplar burl and buckeye burl on non-returnable.
> ...



I'm talking about obviously flawed guitars. Not stuff that the buyer doesn't want. Actual physical construction defects. 

Even when it was called "Option 50", if you received a guitar with a flaw that was Carvin/Kiesel's fault they would either fix it for free, rebuild the instrument or give you a full refund. 

It's also laughable how options that are in the builder, as in standard and not specially requested, can void a factory warranty. I can't think of a single legitimate builder who does that. Could you imagine the fervor if Gibson wouldn't warranty Gold Tops? 

I just don't get how this makes business sense. Do they really have that many people requesting returns?


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 16, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm talking about obviously flawed guitars. Not stuff that the buyer doesn't want. Actual physical construction defects.
> 
> Even when it was called "Option 50", if you received a guitar with a flaw that was Carvin/Kiesel's fault they would either fix it for free, rebuild the instrument or give you a full refund.
> 
> ...


 TBH I really don't know how many returns. Yeah it shouldn't void it if its a construction flaw. 

That's just something you should talk to customer service about. I've never had a bad one.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 16, 2018)

I generally avoid option 50s but there are some that I can't return like my Resin top. I can't return my sparkle either(it was part of a run though) 

I'll post NGDs for those sometime soon.


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## narad (Jan 17, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Only reason they have these rules is because people would order a guitar, not be happy with it, and expect a refund for a custom (semi custom) instrument.



That's the entire idea...

Just the logic of "You got raw tone finish, so we'll have to discount it to sell it" vs. "We produce instocks that have pink-to-blue burst on trans-white poplar with a gold sparkle back" is dubious.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 17, 2018)

narad said:


> That's the entire idea...
> 
> Just the logic of "You got raw tone finish, so we'll have to discount it to sell it" vs. "We produce instocks that have pink-to-blue burst on trans-white poplar with a gold sparkle back" is dubious.



Yeah that does happen a lot. Funny thing is they sell those super crazy ones pretty fast.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Yeah that does happen a lot. Funny thing is they sell those super crazy ones pretty fast.



There's a Barnum quote for that.


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## technomancer (Jan 17, 2018)

narad said:


> That's the entire idea...
> 
> Just the logic of "You got raw tone finish, so we'll have to discount it to sell it" vs. "We produce instocks that have pink-to-blue burst on trans-white poplar with a gold sparkle back" is dubious.



Actually raw tone, buckeye burl, and flamed maple necks being non-returnable isn't surprising as those are all options prone to damage / defects and they don't want stuck with them


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## narad (Jan 17, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Actually raw tone, buckeye burl, and flamed maple necks being non-returnable isn't surprising as those are all options prone to damage / defects and they don't want stuck with them



I'm confused -- if you had actually damaged the item, opt 50 be damned, I'm assuming they're not taking it back. And if it's damaged in shipping, that should be shipping liability. So from the Kiesel-pov, aren't these damage-prone options about the same as any?


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## xzacx (Jan 17, 2018)

technomancer said:


> I think one of the worst things that has come out of the modern metal scene is artists working with manufacturers to convince people that don't know any better that cheap satin finishes are somehow a premium feature. It's not, it's a cost cutting measure to up profits for the manufacturer and endorser.



I'm a pretty big hater of satin finishes too. While I don't disagree with you about them being cheaper to produce, I do think they look cool - and that's the problem. The idea of them is great, but in practical use they just don't hold up. If I'm spending decent money on something, be it a guitar, clothes, shoes, etc., I take into account how it's going look by the time I would have gotten my money's worth out of it. Shiny spots on a satin finish don't have the same charm as some other types of wear.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 17, 2018)

narad said:


> I'm confused -- if you had actually damaged the item, opt 50 be damned, I'm assuming they're not taking it back. And if it's damaged in shipping, that should be shipping liability. So from the Kiesel-pov, aren't these damage-prone options about the same as any?



If a top cracks or a neck warps or finish rubs off the day after you buy something without any abnormal treatment most places end up fixing it... from the option 50 deal and things we've seen here seems Kiesel's take is more if you want it you can have it but it's not our problem.



xzacx said:


> I'm a pretty big hater of satin finishes too. While I don't disagree with you about them being cheaper to produce, I do think they look cool - and that's the problem. The idea of them is great, but in practical use they just don't hold up. If I'm spending decent money on something, be it a guitar, clothes, shoes, etc., I take into account how it's going look by the time I would have gotten my money's worth out of it. Shiny spots on a satin finish don't have the same charm as some other types of wear.



Depends on the color, but I'll give you satin black can look cool. That said from a manufacturing standpoint it's just cheaper and easier to implement. The idea that it is a premium feature and is being sold at an upcharge is just blatantly taking advantage of people that don't know any better.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 17, 2018)

technomancer said:


> If a top cracks or a neck warps or finish rubs off the day after you buy something without any abnormal treatment most places end up fixing it... from the option 50 deal and things we've seen here seems Kiesel's take is more if you want it you can have it but it's not our problem.
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on the color, but I'll give you satin black can look cool. That said from a manufacturing standpoint it's just cheaper and easier to implement. The idea that it is a premium feature and is being sold at an upcharge is just blatantly taking advantage of people that don't know any better.




Kiesel doesn't charge for it's raw tone finishes. It's standard just like Stainless Steel frets


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> Kiesel doesn't charge for it's raw tone finishes. It's standard just like Stainless Steel frets



Losing all forms of warranty is a cost. Especially if there is an issue out of the buyer's hands, which does happen. 

I still can't see how that's okay as a standard option. If any other builder pulled this there would be pitchforks and torches. 

The closest thing I can think of similar to this is Warmoth not covering unfinished necks.

I don't understand the burls being $600 non-refundable options. Where are they getting thier burl that there is such a worry about it failing? I worked for the South East's second biggest Spector dealer and third or fourth biggest Alembic dealer and don't remember a single top failing. 

This all just seems really weird.


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 17, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I don't understand the burls being $600 non-refundable options. Where are they getting thier burl that there is such a worry about it failing? I worked for the South East's second biggest Spector dealer and third or fourth biggest Alembic dealer and don't remember a single top failing.



The issue with the burled top is not about the top failing, per se. There's two issues on kiesel's end. Note that this isn't my opinion of it, just my interpretation of what they've said through various means:

1: bending a 1/4" thick buckeye top can cause cracks. I've not ordered one, so I'm not sure how clear they are with buyers that it's a possibility and they aren't responsible.

2: their limited supply. They said they bought everything buckeye that their one supplier had, but then that was all they'd be able to get from him. I can't say if they found a new source or not...but in either event, they don't want people using up all of the stock on impulse buys that then they decide wasn't worth the $600 to them, so then Kiesel has to take it back and now has a guitar to try to sell with a hugely-expensive top that they will now have to discount to have any hope of selling.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> The issue with the burled top is not about the top failing, per se. There's two issues on kiesel's end. Note that this isn't my opinion of it, just my interpretation of what they've said through various means:
> 
> 1: bending a 1/4" thick buckeye top can cause cracks. I've not ordered one, so I'm not sure how clear they are with buyers that it's a possibility and they aren't responsible.
> 
> 2: their limited supply. They said they bought everything buckeye that their one supplier had, but then that was all they'd be able to get from him. I can't say if they found a new source or not...but in either event, they don't want people using up all of the stock on impulse buys that then they decide wasn't worth the $600 to them, so then Kiesel has to take it back and now has a guitar to try to sell with a hugely-expensive top that they will now have to discount to have any hope of selling.



1: So carve it like everyone else. At $600 a pop they can do with one less top out of a giant billet that several tops are pulled from. Or heck, raise the price by $100 (might as well at this point) and to compensate. Builders do burl drop tops and still retain warranty. 

2: Burls are more rare than a lot of things, but by no means are they so rare. Just look at how much is sitting on the market. Once again, are returns such a huge issue? How many are they getting? It sounds like they're up to thier eyeballs in them.


----------



## narad (Jan 17, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> 2: their limited supply. They said they bought everything buckeye that their one supplier had, but then that was all they'd be able to get from him. I can't say if they found a new source or not...but in either event, they don't want people using up all of the stock on impulse buys that then they decide wasn't worth the $600 to them, so then Kiesel has to take it back and now has a guitar to try to sell with a hugely-expensive top that they will now have to discount to have any hope of selling.



I have a bridge to sell you. Supplies are extremely limited.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2018)

So apparently you can get fishmans installed on the zeus now. First 10 orders are only 100$ upcharge, then it goes up to 200. Cheaper than buying em yourself. They're seriously tempting me now


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## spudmunkey (Jan 17, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> 1: So carve it like everyone else. At $600 a pop they can do with one less top out of a giant billet that several tops are pulled from. Or heck, raise the price by $100 (might as well at this point) and to compensate. Builders do burl drop tops and still retain warranty.



I'm with you. It's entirely because of how they do their drop-tops. Rather than a gentle waterfall, it's got one crease, so the entire angle has to be absorbed in that one point. I know this was discussed ad nauseum in the "Never again!" thread, tough.

The frustrating thing is that this wouldn't even apply to anything with a flat top like an Icon, an SCB, an Aries, etc.

So I guess this is less that Buckeye voids their 10-day trial because of this, but more that a cracked forearm contour to them is not indicative of a defective guitar, and is inherent risk in the buckeye top that thick on "drop tops", and that wouldn't be a reason to allow returns on it. and because every piece of Buckeye is so different from another, that they may be trying to prevent people asking for rebuild-after-rebuilt to get a top they like.

I do feel the need to address one term used: "warranty". Getting a raw tone top doesn't void your warranty. Their verbiage is that you don't get the 10-day trial. Just like a lefty multiscale (which doesn't come with a trial period), it's still supposed to be protected from MANUFACTURER defects through whatever their warranty period is, but that wouldn't (in their eyes) include an especially thin finish that will wear quickly (raw tone), or using a wood that can be prone to cracking (buckeye burl). If they are telling people about it, I actually have no problem with this.

I work in custom furniture, and almost all of my vendors include caveats in their warranties. Things like "This table is constructed from solid wood. ______ Industries/Workshops/Wood/Designs is not responsible for cracks or warping due to temperature or humidity changes" and also "Custom finish is not approved for commercial or outdoor use." I have a client in New York who had 6 dining tables crack on the end grain of their 2" thick solid wood table tops 2 weeks ago due to the cold snap drying everything out. All the manufacturer did/will/should say is, "Well, we told ya. We can send someone to fix it, but it's on your dime". They don't consider it a defect.

In terms of the raw tone, think of it this way: if you buy a sports car, it'll likely come with some sort of tire that'll last 10-30,000 miles, with OK performance. If you choose to upgrade to another high-performance, high-grip tire, you trade off longevity. They will wear our sooner. As long as a customer is informed of this, I can see no problem with offering these tires. Tung oil is even more fragile, but all that takes is a tiny bit of sanding and some more oil and it's fixed. The raw tone is a hard satin clearcoat, often with some color paint/stain under it...much harder to repair.



MaxOfMetal said:


> 2: Burls are more rare than a lot of things, but by no means are they so rare. Just look at how much is sitting on the market. Once again, are returns such a huge issue? How many are they getting? It sounds like they're up to thier eyeballs in them.



Ha! Indeed.



narad said:


> I have a bridge to sell you. Supplies are extremely limited.



Again, to be clear, I didn't say it was my opinion or that I agreed with it.


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 17, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> So apparently you can get fishmans installed on the zeus now. First 10 orders are only 100$ upcharge, then it goes up to 200. Cheaper than buying em yourself. They're seriously tempting me now



And interesting per the recent conversation: They are $200, but if you return a Fishman-equipped guitar, there's a $200 restocking fee.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 17, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> And interesting per the recent conversation: They are $200, but if you return a Fishman-equipped guitar, there's a $200 restocking fee.


interesting...


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> And interesting per the recent conversation: They are $200, but if you return a Fishman-equipped guitar, there's a $200 restocking fee.



So if you don't like your guitar you get the privilege of buying Jeff a set of Fishmans. Cool.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 17, 2018)

I wouldn't be surprised if they put a restocking fee in place at some point.

For what it's worth (not much), those first 10 people who get the upgrade for $100 only have a $100 restocking fee.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 17, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I wouldn't be surprised if they put a restocking fee in place at some point.
> 
> For what it's worth (not much), those first 10 people who get the upgrade for $100 only have a $100 restocking fee.



How will they be able to stay in business!? Amazing!


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## sezna (Jan 17, 2018)

https://instagram.com/p/BeEVH8Nnw35/

so he is now offering a fishman fluence option for the zeus...surprisingly trendy of him


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## technomancer (Jan 17, 2018)

sezna said:


> https://instagram.com/p/BeEVH8Nnw35/
> 
> so he is now offering a fishman fluence option for the zeus...surprisingly trendy of him



Not like the 5 posts or so before this one were about just that


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## sezna (Jan 17, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Not like the 5 posts or so before this one were about just that


dang i.......i am sorry. i assumed it was news because the insta post is new.


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## technomancer (Jan 17, 2018)

sezna said:


> dang i.......i am sorry. i assumed it was news because the insta post is new.



No harm no foul just thought it was funny


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## spudmunkey (Jan 17, 2018)

Hey, did you guys hear? Kiesel is now offering Fishmans in the Zeus!


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## diagrammatiks (Jan 17, 2018)

No other custom builder that I know of has a well stated return policy of any kind as far as I know. 

I think Jeff is saddled with a policy he doesn’t really want to honor. 

If he collectively moves away from it that’s fine. But defects are still defects.


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## Hollowway (Jan 17, 2018)

Yeah, I never put much stock in warranties and return policies. Especially for stuff like this. It's really about whether you can trust the person you're working with. It would be very difficult to "prove" a manufacturing defect in a guitar, since the company could claim it wasn't like that when they sold it to you. So your recourse is taking them to court, which probably isn't worth the money. It's one of the reasons it's dicey to buy an instrument you cannot try first. And it's even more dicey to buy an instrument from an unknown luthier. That's why I think it's ridiculous when new luthiers charge $3000 for a guitar. There's no one yet to vouch for them, and they want top dollar.


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## xzacx (Jan 17, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> No other custom builder that I know of has a well stated return policy of any kind as far as I know.
> 
> I think Jeff is saddled with a policy he doesn’t really want to honor.
> 
> If he collectively moves away from it that’s fine. But defects are still defects.



My issue with the return policy is that Kiesel uses it as a marketing tool, but constantly makes it harder to actually utilize. It'd be one thing to just stop it all together, but to keep touting it, and only honor it on the most basic builds, seems a bit disingenuous. Maybe a restocking fee is a happy medium. Seems to be a win-win for Kiesel, as they'd likely sell returns for more than the original price less the fee.


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## crackout (Jan 18, 2018)

This thing totally looks like Bob of the Genie Family!


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## laxu (Jan 19, 2018)

xzacx said:


> My issue with the return policy is that Kiesel uses it as a marketing tool, but constantly makes it harder to actually utilize. It'd be one thing to just stop it all together, but to keep touting it, and only honor it on the most basic builds, seems a bit disingenuous. Maybe a restocking fee is a happy medium. Seems to be a win-win for Kiesel, as they'd likely sell returns for more than the original price less the fee.



If anything they need to clear up the terms. It can't be just "oh if you get this and that you lose the trial period and if you select this other thing you have to pay a restocking fee". They need to make a complete list of what removes the warranty period (e.g. custom finishes), should not be too hard.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 19, 2018)

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. It wouldn't make sound business sense to have a page dedicated to "here's a list of a bunch of things that make us look bad. Cheesecake Factory calorie info is only published by state law, and only in those states, and only in a separate booklet that, in some states, you have to request to see.

As long as the salespeople all have the information accessible and it's clearly communicated to all customers when they chat with sales and directly on their order confirmations, and it's the same for everyone (even if it evolves over time) I don't think that's much of an issue. Even in lawsuit happy California, i think as long as they, in any "official" publications say "MOST builds" somewhere they are probably fine. The waters definitely get clouded, though, with non-returnable options being on the online builder. WTF is that about?!


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2018)

It just makes you think about how little faith they have in the product they let out the door.

I can't think of another builder who refuses to stand behind thier product in such a way, at least not any worth a damn.


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## xzacx (Jan 19, 2018)

Wow, I wasn't expecting this. Looks like they're doing crackle finishes now


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2018)

xzacx said:


> Wow, I wasn't expecting this. Looks like they're doing crackle finishes now
> 
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/p/BeJOKg1HjLr/?taken-by=kieselcarvinguitars



Does it void the warranty?

How sad is that, that that's a question at this point. :/


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## TemjinStrife (Jan 19, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It just makes you think about how little faith they have in the product they let out the door.
> 
> I can't think of another builder who refuses to stand behind thier product in such a way, at least not any worth a damn.


This. Especially given that Carvin had an excellent reputation for customer service.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 19, 2018)

TemjinStrife said:


> This. Especially given that Carvin had an excellent reputation for customer service.



You mean when they didn't offer nearly the offering they do now, much of it due to customer demand? I mean...the raw tone satin finish waves the 10-day trial period, right? Even says so right on the builder. And yet, there's at least one every single day in the facebook pics of the day they post. People want it. They offer it, but say "it's yours" if you just don't like it.

Again, i've got zero problems with crazy custom stuff not having a trial period. What gets me is when simple things like pickups (THEIR OWN PICKUPS, mind you) can make a guitar without a 10-day trial.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> You mean when they didn't offer nearly the offering they do now, much of it due to customer demand? I mean...the raw tone satin finish waves the 10-day trial period, right? Even says so right on the builder. And yet, there's at least one every single day in the facebook pics of the day they post. People want it. They offer it, but say "it's yours" if you just don't like it.
> 
> Again, i've got zero problems with crazy custom stuff not having a trial period. What gets me is when simple things like pickups (THEIR OWN PICKUPS, mind you) can make a guitar without a 10-day trial.



If so many people want this stuff then why do they bitch about no one buying returned guitars? That's the only legitimate business case they have for no returns and it's still kinda BS.

Also diversification is an absolutely bunk reason for poor service and you know it.

John Suhr will sell you a single piece neck/fretboard with no truss rod and still warranty it.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 19, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Also diversification is an absolutely bunk reason for poor service and you know it.



Ahh, to be clear i was reffering to the aspect of not offering the 10-day trial with certain builds/options. I misunderstood.

I equate _that _to a steakhouse menu that says they will cook you a well-done steak upon request, but are not responsible for the outcome.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2018)

What's the fear? That tons of folks are just going to keep paying the 20% on random builds just to return them in some endless loop?


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## spudmunkey (Jan 19, 2018)

Clearly you don't work in an industry that sells custom items (or maybe you do and my customers are all nuts...which is entirely possible.likely). I have a customer who wants to return a completely custom, made-to-order credenza because they don't like how the casters look, even though the casters are completely hidden. On another project, my customer went through 4 different chairs even after doing a week long "sit test" with the first one. because we wanted to keep them as a client, we bought back these 3 previous chairs (qty of 44 each time), and re-selling them to a used furniture dealer at a loss.


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## DudeManBrother (Jan 19, 2018)

My band mate just ordered one and they are pretty clear on the terms. The finish he’s getting is opt 50 non-returnable. But they did specify in writing (email) that the craftsmanship still maintains a 5 year warranty from defect. So his 10 day trial is waived but his warranty is guaranteed.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 19, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Does it void the warranty?
> 
> How sad is that, that that's a question at this point. :/


warranty is still valid. Just not returnable


----------



## cardinal (Jan 19, 2018)

xzacx said:


> Wow, I wasn't expecting this. Looks like they're doing crackle finishes now



OMG is this seriously a thing now for any Kiesel? Anyone know the upcharge and whether it’s returnable?

https://www.kieselguitars.com/crackle/

Never mind. Answered my own question. $300 and it is nonreturnable.


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## technomancer (Jan 19, 2018)

cardinal said:


> OMG is this seriously a thing now for any Kiesel? Anyone know the upcharge and whether it’s returnable?
> 
> https://www.kieselguitars.com/crackle/
> 
> Never mind. Answered my own question. $300 and it is nonreturnable.



I figured the non-returnable, but the upcharge is actually less than I was expecting.


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## cardinal (Jan 19, 2018)

technomancer said:


> I figured the non-returnable, but the upcharge is actually less than I was expecting.



It’s pretty great. Might actually get a Kiesel. The crackle goes a long way for covering the rest of the ugly.


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## narad (Jan 19, 2018)

Crackle's awesome but _their_ crackle is a bit off. There's too much of the base color in there / lines are too thick. I feel it's an odd thing to complain about, but it's just not quite right.


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## xzacx (Jan 19, 2018)

narad said:


> but it's just not quite right.



I guess that’s just the Kiesel way.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 19, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Clearly you don't work in an industry that sells custom items (or maybe you do and my customers are all nuts...which is entirely possible.likely). I have a customer who wants to return a completely custom, made-to-order credenza because they don't like how the casters look, even though the casters are completely hidden. On another project, my customer went through 4 different chairs even after doing a week long "sit test" with the first one. because we wanted to keep them as a client, we bought back these 3 previous chairs (qty of 44 each time), and re-selling them to a used furniture dealer at a loss.



I do, but like yourself, it has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

They make single guitars on an individual basis and they've offered the 10-day policy for decades.

Yeah, clients can be trying, but it comes with the territory. 



r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> warranty is still valid. Just not returnable



You mean the warranty that they've had no problem skirting? Look at the guitar with maxed out saddles. They argued that it was fine and it took an internet shame campaign for them to finally fix it. 

Losing the return policy removes your bargaining powers and places Kiesel in a position where they can deny your claims without any recourse.


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## Hollowway (Jan 20, 2018)

I have no idea why Jeff is doing what he’s doing. This business about banning long time customers, not honoring warranty claims, deleting Facebook posts by critics, not admiting to obvious mistakes, lying about prices on the website, etc is taking the most important piece of Carvin goodwill he inherited - the feeling of a low risk purchase with a trustworthy company - and throwing it away. I’m literally too scared to order from Kiesel now because of the most recent experience I’ve had, and those I’ve seen from others. I still don’t like this new shape - even with the crackle finish - but there are others I’d buy if I felt confident in my $2000 investment. I just don’t anymore.


----------



## Taikatatti (Jan 20, 2018)

Still GASing for a jet black or scarlet red ZM7. Not feeling the fishmans or the new crackle finish but then again, i don’t have to. Can’t wait to order one.


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## BigViolin (Jan 20, 2018)

Some things should have died with the 80s.


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## technomancer (Jan 20, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> Some things should have died with the 80s.



Crackles seem to be a love / hate thing. I'm in the rare group that thinks they're ok but I far prefer straight neon finishes and bengals if I'm going full 80s.


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## BigViolin (Jan 20, 2018)

I remember thinking MacAlpine's crackle BC Rich was awesome, and Lynch's original beat up tiger is just perfect. 

...but that Kiesel looks like a decal from Hot Topic.


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## technomancer (Jan 20, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> I remember thinking MacAlpine's crackle BC Rich was awesome, and Lynch's original beat up tiger is just perfect.
> 
> ...but that Kiesel looks like a decal from Hot Topic.



LMFAO it looks like half the 80s crackles out there...


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## BigViolin (Jan 20, 2018)

Truth.

The years haven't been kind to me.


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## technomancer (Jan 20, 2018)

BigViolin said:


> Truth.
> 
> The years haven't been kind to me.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 20, 2018)

I'm glad that they are at least sticking (for now) with the black top coat, if only to prevent the inevitable Lisa Frank Trapper Keeper-themed builds with a Kiesel Racing Green and Lambo Blue fade with the Neon Pink crackling top coat.

I'd genuinely love to see a black crackle, over CLEAR flamed maple...kinda sorta loosely inspired by those (what I think are) super killer limited custom guitar that Schecter did with the clear and black swirl.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 20, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I'm glad that they are at least sticking (for now) with the black top coat, if only to prevent the inevitable Lisa Frank Trapper Keeper-themed builds with a Kiesel Racing Green and Lambo Blue fade with the Neon Pink crackling top coat.
> 
> I'd genuinely love to see a black crackle, over CLEAR flamed maple...kinda sorta loosely inspired by those (what I think are) super killer limited custom guitar that Schecter did with the clear and black swirl.



The swirls Thorn did on those were awesome... not sure if a crackle would look cool like that or not, but it would be interesting to see.


----------



## makecamera (Jan 20, 2018)




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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 21, 2018)

the crackle finish is lookin pretty sick actually.


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## cardinal (Jan 21, 2018)

The crackle is amazing IMHO. Rare to see these days. I’m very critical of a lot of Kiesel stuff but the crackles look good to me. 

Hopefully they have a feel for the process. Some like the wider crackles while others like a finer crackle. My understanding is that it’s a reasonably controllable process, so hopefully you could request a general pattern. 

I’d like to see that they can do the rainbow crackle, which was my favorite.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

Not the best screenshot but that's a dark blue to aqua sparkle fade


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## Albake21 (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> the crackle finish is lookin pretty sick actually.


Okay not gonna lie, that pink one is pretty awesome and I don't even like pink.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

Alright this one is pretty awesome too, a non-potato shot of the aqua to blue sparkle fade.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 22, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Alright this one is pretty awesome too, a non-potato shot of the aqua to blue sparkle fade.


I'm really liking the sparkle finish on these.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 22, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I'm really liking the sparkle finish on these.


same, the pink sparkle and that blue sparkle are killer. If I had the cash I'd buy that blue sparkle right now.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 24, 2018)

Didn't feel like making a new thread. There's a Osiris thingy now too.






all of this is gross.


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## cardinal (Jan 24, 2018)

I kinda like the Osiris. It’s a Vader without the cut-out behind the bridge, right? 

I’ve thought that the Vader somehow is the only double cut Kiesel that gets the horns proportioned well.


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## spudmunkey (Jan 24, 2018)

cardinal said:


> I kinda like the Osiris. It’s a Vader without the cut-out behind the bridge, right?



And an Aries/SCB-esque bevel, and bolt-on (actually...I'm only assuming bolt-on, but it's my gut feeling).



cardinal said:


> I’ve thought that the Vader somehow is the only double cut Kiesel that gets the horns proportioned well.



Interestingly, to me is their LEAST well-proportioned. They seem oddly stubby to me, and make for a longer reach to the 1st fret, but no worse than any singlecut.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 24, 2018)

i prefer the zeus.


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## cardinal (Jan 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> And an Aries/SCB-esque bevel, and bolt-on (actually...I'm only assuming bolt-on, but it's my gut feeling).
> 
> 
> 
> Interestingly, to me is their LEAST well-proportioned. They seem oddly stubby to me, and make for a longer reach to the 1st fret, but no worse than any singlecut.



Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. I don’t like how many of the other Carvins/Kiesel’s, the horns are too skinny when they attach to the body. They don’t flow out from the body well. 

Mind you, I wouldn’t really call the Vader horns attractive. They probably need to essentially combine them with the Aries horns: make them longer but still wide at their base.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 24, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Didn't feel like making a new thread. There's a Osiris thingy now too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow this was exactly what I asked for when they first announced the Zeus. I might actually buy my first headless guitar!


----------



## technomancer (Jan 24, 2018)

cardinal said:


> I kinda like the Osiris. It’s a Vader without the cut-out behind the bridge, right?
> 
> I’ve thought that the Vader somehow is the only double cut Kiesel that gets the horns proportioned well.



Looks like an Aries without the random scoop on the lower horn and the cutout for the bridge added


----------



## AwakenNoMore (Jan 24, 2018)

I like it, maybe more than the Zeus. So many new models.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 24, 2018)

AwakenNoMore said:


> I like it, maybe more than the Zeus. So many new models.


I was really hoping for a new non-headless model though.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 24, 2018)

from the livestream they're doing right now. KRG pickups and inlays to match the sick crackle




the pink counterpart


----------



## cardinal (Jan 24, 2018)

Not that Kiesel is reading this or would ever listen to me, but:

The fact that they offer so many models, many of which now seem to be variations on each other (Aries/Vader/Osiris/DC/600/700/Letchford and SCB/Zeus and Crescent/CT), maybe that a hint that NONE of those designs really got it right? 

I mean, if they really nailed it, you wouldn’t keep tinkering with it, right?


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 24, 2018)

cardinal said:


> Not that Kiesel is reading this or would ever listen to me, but:
> 
> The fact that they offer so many models, many of which now seem to be variations on each other (Aries/Vader/Osiris/DC/600/700/Letchford and SCB/Zeus and Crescent/CT), maybe that a hint that NONE of those designs really got it right?
> 
> I mean, if they really nailed it, you wouldn’t keep tinkering with it, right?



i'm pretty sure jeff just dicks around with the cnc software all day.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 24, 2018)

I'm passing on this. I ordered a Zeus day one but I don't find this attractive.


----------



## Taikatatti (Jan 24, 2018)

loving the osiris! going to be a hard choice between the two.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 24, 2018)

Taikatatti said:


> loving the osiris! going to be a hard choice between the two.


I've never been a fan of the single cut look and feel so I'm very excited to see more about the Osiris.


----------



## pott (Jan 24, 2018)

I think it looks very good. A little different from the Aries/Vader, just enough to make it somewhat new. The bottom part is the same as the Zeus but I feel it works with the double-cut.
The Zeus looks super-wonky to me with 6 strings only. The Osiris looks more balanced.

I enjoy my Vader a lot but I got it second hand and it's not really 'mine' in that respect. An Osiris would enable be welcome to plug that gap... but I'd be hard-pressed to pick between Osiris/Vader for a new axe. The Vader is more compact which I prefer but the Osiris looks more balanced...


----------



## TemjinStrife (Jan 24, 2018)

Has the same issue as the Vader where the lower horn just doesn't "balance" visually with the upper.


----------



## makecamera (Jan 24, 2018)




----------



## Church2224 (Jan 24, 2018)

They have a lot of guitars I would love to try....

If only they would improve the customer support and overall QC....


----------



## HeHasTheJazzHands (Jan 24, 2018)

That's actually really cool looking. Probably the closest thing I've seen to a modern day Steinberger M.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 24, 2018)

I


makecamera said:


>



Love that new blue, especially on the antique Ash. I might actually go for that in the near future.


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 24, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> I've never been a fan of the single cut look and feel so I'm very excited to see more about the Osiris.



Thankfully unlike the Zeus's drip-drip-drip upload to the web, they have all models up on web already, with example photos of each string count and scale.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 24, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Thankfully unlike the Zeus's drip-drip-drip upload to the web, they have all models up on web already, with example photos of each string count and scale.


Yup, I was taking a look. Although it looks like they don't have every option updated yet. As of now the antique Ash isn't there even though the models they show have it. Also no 27" scale option for 7 strings which must be a typo because every other Kiesel including the Vader can be that length.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 24, 2018)

Looking at these both models are way too fat as six strings. They should have scaled the body based on the number of strings


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 24, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> Yup, I was taking a look. Although it looks like they don't have every option updated yet. As of now the antique Ash isn't there even though the models they show have it. Also no 27" scale option for 7 strings which must be a typo because every other Kiesel including the Vader can be that length.



AAT isn't on the builder for every model anyway, so it may not ever be. I don't believe they were doing the extended scales on the 7 string models. I have to assume, based on the Vaders that have been coming through for a while, that people who used to buy extended scale are now buying multiscale instead. it might not have been worth it. It's not on the builder for the Zeus, Vanquish or Solo models, either.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 24, 2018)

lmao Jeff's shirt at namm says super bevel bros and is modeled after the old super mario bros cover. At least he's embracing the bevel memes. now if only he could work on the customer service aspect...


----------



## mbardu (Jan 25, 2018)

I've gone back and forth recently with my love/hate of Kiesel, felt their value proposition was not really there any more, but I seriously like those two recent models.
Just priced a couple of things and you can get a seriously decent headless instrument with stainless steel frets for not much over 1000k$.

Still not sold on the Kiesel pickups (actually much preferred the Carvins) so that would be a likely swap but not much else to hate!

Edit: Just wish they offered a piezo on headless.


----------



## iamaom (Jan 25, 2018)

mbardu said:


> Still not sold on the Kiesel pickups (actually much preferred the Carvins) so that would be a likely swap but not much else to hate!


At least they're swappable now, Carvin used a pickup size ever so slightly smaller than standard ones so there was a lot of annoyance on the net about trying to sand away the cavity edges to fit an aftermarket in. I remember it was one of the main reasons I never got a DC7.


----------



## Stuck_in_a_dream (Jan 25, 2018)

This looks awesome!!!


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 25, 2018)

nah


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 25, 2018)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> This looks awesome!!!


yeah I kind of dig it


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 25, 2018)

Stuck_in_a_dream said:


> This looks awesome!!!


I would absolutely rock that... but I would also rock a lot of Jeff's weird builds.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 25, 2018)

iamaom said:


> At least they're swappable now, Carvin used a pickup size ever so slightly smaller than standard ones so there was a lot of annoyance on the net about trying to sand away the cavity edges to fit an aftermarket in. I remember it was one of the main reasons I never got a DC7.



They had fixed that for quite a few years before turning into Kiesel.
And then again, I'd never see the point of swapping out pickups as nice as an M22/H22 combo anyway


----------



## littleredguitars2 (Jan 25, 2018)

kiesel has never had an original idea in his life from what i can tell. this new model is no exception


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 25, 2018)

mbardu said:


> They had fixed that for quite a few years before turning into Kiesel.
> And then again, I'd never see the point of swapping out pickups as nice as an M22/H22 combo anyway


It's even better now since they sell covered pickup options. So every cavity will now fit both covered and noncovered pickups. Very happy to finally see that. Although don't take my word on that just yet, I'm just judging that by the looks of the cavities.


----------



## Petar Bogdanov (Jan 25, 2018)

The Zeus looks like they were going for that 12th fret singlecut hype train, but wussed out at the last moment.


----------



## Five Ten (Jan 25, 2018)

So is the Osiris just a headless Aries? I kind of like it, and that finish above is really pretty. Kind of a shame that I'm not a fan of Jeff and his shenanigans otherwise there would be a good chance I would order one. That finish is just so beautiful.


----------



## cardinal (Jan 25, 2018)

littleredguitars2 said:


> kiesel has never had an original idea in his life from what i can tell. this new model is no exception



The SCB and the Vanquish were his designs I think? Whether I like them or not, they do seem original to me (for the SCB, at least at the time it was introduced, it was a pretty differently looking guitar).


----------



## narad (Jan 25, 2018)

cardinal said:


> The SCB and the Vanquish were his designs I think? Whether I like them or not, they do seem original to me (for the SCB, at least at the time it was introduced, it was a pretty differently looking guitar).



If anything they're too original these days, in a lot of ways.


----------



## Scordare (Jan 25, 2018)

I like the Osiris ...and the green dots!


----------



## mbardu (Jan 25, 2018)

littleredguitars2 said:


> kiesel has never had an original idea in his life from what i can tell. this new model is no exception



Ah there it is, obviously we were missing some of the random kiesel hate train in the last few posts.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 25, 2018)

mbardu said:


> Ah there it is, obviously we were missing some of the random kiesel hate train in the last few posts.


don't mind him he's busy dickriding strandberg 99% of the time


----------



## Opion (Jan 25, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Looking at these both models are way too fat as six strings. They should have scaled the body based on the number of strings




This. I don't understand why they don't do this - has anyone confirmed that these shapes are actually the same proportion, just with thicker necks for the number of strings? Cause it looks like that's the case. These 6 string headless models look weird as a 6. 

To be honest Kiesel seem like they're coming around with all their weird angles and are really grabbing the attention of the multi scale extended range market. But its such a shame their customer service is still having issues. I'd order a Zeus if I didn't have to worry about something going wrong and being told I can't get a refund like a user posted about here recently just because I didn't read a clause that you could only access on a private facebook group...really reassuring


----------



## xzacx (Jan 25, 2018)

Opion said:


> This. I don't understand why they don't do this - has anyone confirmed that these shapes are actually the same proportion, just with thicker necks for the number of strings? Cause it looks like that's the case. These 6 string headless models look weird as a 6.



I think Jeff actually said it when they first introduced the Zeus that they were all the same. As far as the "why," it saves money to use the same body for each, rather than scaling them appropriately.


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 25, 2018)

While I definitely think the Zeus looks a bit weird in a 6 string, the Osiris looks perfectly fine in a 6, 7, or 8. I'm seriously debating on getting my first headless 7 as that Osiris is great for the money.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 25, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> While I definitely think the Zeus looks a bit weird in a 6 string, the Osiris looks perfectly fine in a 6, 7, or 8. I'm seriously debating on getting my first headless 7 as that Osiris is great for the money.



We'll agree to disagree since the bodies are virtually identical except for the horns. Below are the two actual images of the models from the Kiesel website on top of each other.

View media item 632
I do like them, I just think the bodies are a bit thick as a 6.


----------



## mbardu (Jan 25, 2018)

technomancer said:


> We'll agree to disagree since the bodies are virtually identical except for the horns. Below are the two actual images of the models from the Kiesel website on top of each other.
> 
> View media item 632
> I do like them, I just think the bodies are a bit thick as a 6.



*T H I C C 
*
But I really like it on the Doublecut.

I'm that close to ordering a teal-on-ash with pale moon ebony fretboard 6-er.


----------



## beerandbeards (Jan 25, 2018)

mbardu said:


> I'm that close to ordering a teal-on-ash with pale moon ebony fretboard 6-er.



Have you ever danced with the Devil in Pale moonlight?


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 25, 2018)

While I definitely think the Zeus looks a bit weird in a 6 string, the Osiris looks perfectly fine in a 6, 7, or 8. I'm seriously debating on getting my first headless 7 as that Osiris is great for the money.


technomancer said:


> We'll agree to disagree since the bodies are virtually identical except for the horns. Below are the two actual images of the models from the Kiesel website on top of each other.
> 
> View media item 632
> I do like them, I just think the bodies are a bit thick as a 6.


Exactly my point, the horns make the difference. The single cut makes it look bulky.


----------



## DudeManBrother (Jan 25, 2018)

Ive heard that Jeff had mentioned leaving the body sizes all the same to cut costs or something. If that is true, that’s garbage to me. I could understand (yet completely disagree) if they prefer the wide body aesthetic to a more proportional size based on neck pocket width; but to pick one size fits all to make it more affordable? To whom?

I’d bet a lot of guys would pay $100 more to have a 6 string body proportional to the 6 string neck, which would be the same price as an 8 string with its proportional body. It should be done anyways, because it’s the right thing to do IMO. 

I’m still pretty stoked to try my buddy’s Zeus 6 when it’s finished, and I like the design overall, but that shit irks me if it’s true that the only reason the bodies are fat is because they didn’t want to run separate CNC programs.


----------



## cardinal (Jan 25, 2018)

I’m sure next year there will be the Poseidon (or whatever Greek God) that looks super similar to the Zeus but slightly different, and maybe that will have a smaller body.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 25, 2018)

The CNC programs are still different for the neck pockets and pickup routes. Not sure why body sizing isn't changed too. Seems lazy more than anything else.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 25, 2018)

You are talking about a company that charges 500 for the privilege of being the owner of the first 27 inch headless trem guitar


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2018)

god I love that color


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> god I love that color



They have an OM8 available in that color. I almost pulled the trigger. Ask Mike Jones on facebook if interested. It's 1414 before case and shipping


----------



## Albake21 (Jan 26, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> They have an OM8 available in that color. I almost pulled the trigger. Ask Mike Jones on facebook if interested. It's 1414 before case and shipping


Damn that's cheap! This is exactly why I'm debating on grabbing one of these, you can get a killer headless guitar for a very good price.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> They have an OM8 available in that color. I almost pulled the trigger. Ask Mike Jones on facebook if interested. It's 1414 before case and shipping


I'm trying to hold off buying any more guitars for a while but that OM8 did look very nice. I'd prefer the zeus if I get another headless though.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)

Albake21 said:


> Damn that's cheap! This is exactly why I'm debating on grabbing one of these, you can get a killer headless guitar for a very good price.





KnightBrolaire said:


> I'm trying to hold off buying any more guitars for a while but that OM8 did look very nice. I'd prefer the zeus if I get another headless though.


 They also an o8 for like 1099. I wanted the crackle O8x but it's too much for just standard alder and 1 piece maple neck so I am passing on that.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)

I compiled some of them.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)




----------



## MiPwnYew (Jan 26, 2018)

Some of those look great. I think the more barebones ones are a great value. I just can't ever picture myself ordering on of those $3k+ versions knowing it will play/sound exactly the same as $1099 base model, but I guess some people think it's worth it


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)

MiPwnYew said:


> Some of those look great. I think the more barebones ones are a great value. I just can't ever picture myself ordering on of those $3k+ versions knowing it will play/sound exactly the same as $1099 base model, but I guess some people think it's worth it



Yeah I know that feel.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2018)

Is it just me or do their prices seem way higher for basic specced guitars anymore? 2K for that blue Z8 seems steep. The green crackle O8X is pretty sick looking though.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Is it just me or do their prices seem way higher for basic specced guitars anymore? 2K for that blue Z8 seems steep. The green crackle O8X is pretty sick looking though.



It's because Jeff did the finish himself


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> It's because Jeff did the finish himself


it's not even a complicated finish though. it's just some trans light blue sprayed over the body.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 26, 2018)

https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/137746







deal of the century 1500


----------



## cardinal (Jan 26, 2018)

^ obviously that’s horrible but really it’s great. If your band’s shtick were some super glam thing or rave-type atmosphere, that is a wonderful thing. Definitely not for everyone, but for the right act, that’s a home run.


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> https://www.kieselguitars.com/guitars-in-stock/137746
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it was just hot pink @Hollowway or I would have bought it lol. If it was just neon green I would have bought it. sadly it's both colors


----------



## spudmunkey (Jan 26, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> It's because Jeff did the finish himself



Since that option is $200, I think it's one of the newer sort of "in between" finishes they are launching that are a higher cost because they are multiple steps, but are cheaper because Jeff doesn't have to/feel the need to do himself. This would include the Graphite, Aurora, Daisy and I imagine this new Saber is one of that finish family. I think there's a pink one, too. 

It's a $1400 base price, which is $200 over the standard scale (this blue Zeus is a multiscale, which they charge $200 for).

With Kiesel, their options add up quick, but you can easily stick with a more basic spec and still get stainless frets, tung oil neck on the bolt-ons included in the base price, and then you still have $100 in "free" options to still come up with thousands of combinations that won't cost you a dime, including trans finishes, wood upgrades, etc.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 26, 2018)

I love that Koa but an $1100 upcharge for a top is ridiculous...


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Jan 26, 2018)

technomancer said:


> I love that Koa but an $1100 upcharge for a top is ridiculous...


I know, I can buy multiple koa tops from secretstashhardwoods or other wood stores for that kind of money.


----------



## Exit Existence (Jan 26, 2018)

A lot of the Jeff finishes are dye / stain based I believe. Applied by hand instead of sprayed. Then obviously sprayed with clear or matte. Are they worth the money? I don't think so but whatever lol

That new tropical turquoise is litttt Definitely getting a Osiris 8 or 7 multi scale with that.


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Jan 26, 2018)

Exit Existence said:


> A lot of the Jeff finishes are dye / stain based I believe. Applied by hand instead of sprayed. Then obviously sprayed with clear or matte. Are they worth the money? I don't think so but whatever lol
> 
> That new tropical turquoise is litttt Definitely getting a Osiris 8 or 7 multi scale with that.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 28, 2018)

Interesting, something I just noticed (and have no idea how long it has been like this). I remember the initial Vaders had a zero fret, then went to zero fret and a nut. Looks like everything headless is now nut only with no zero fret.


----------



## diagrammatiks (Jan 28, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Interesting, something I just noticed (and have no idea how long it has been like this). I remember the initial Vaders had a zero fret, then went to zero fret and a nut. Looks like everything headless is now nut only with no zero fret.



i recall they had some issues with the zero fret.


----------



## technomancer (Jan 28, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> i recall they had some issues with the zero fret.



Yes they did, IIRC it was an issue of strings sliding because the break angle over the fret wasn't steep enough and some guitars developing grooves in the fret. It was really odd as numerous companies have used the zero fret without the groove problems that showed up really fast on the Kiesels. The initial solution on the Vader was to add a nut behind the fret to stop the sliding. I didn't realize they had dropped the zero fret completely.

It's a shame as a properly done zero fret really does give a fantastic playing instrument, it was one of the things I liked most about the Steinberger clone I had with the graphite neck / ss frets.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 28, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> i recall they had some issues with the zero fret.



Tons of Vader owners complained about string shifting and weird overtones. After months of refusal to handle the issue from Jeff, and using every excuse in the book from "it's an isolated incident" to "that's not how zero frets work". 

Eventually, they [Kiesel] had to intervene and they went to the zero fret + nut setup. There were still problems so they eventually, and quietly, moved to the nut only.


----------



## Bdtunn (Jan 28, 2018)

I had (note had) a Vader with the original zero fret. Within a few months it started to develop the groves and ting. 

My Oakland axe has a zero fret and I've had zero issues with it.


----------



## marcwormjim (Jan 29, 2018)

technomancer said:


> it was an issue of strings sliding because the break angle over the fret wasn't steep enough and some guitars developing grooves in the fret.



That’s just what happens when a guy looking for the path of least resistance out from dad’s shadow jumps on the headless ergo multiscale bandwagon and puts his CNC doodle into production without ever having built one before.

Does anyone recall if this problem initially affected the Holdsworth line as well, being as it was just a Steinberger copy with the JCustom hardware? I know they did away with the zero fret across all models, and that double-ball strings mitigated the issue somewhat.


----------



## spudmunkey (Feb 1, 2018)

Since this thread also contains the release of the Osiris and the Fishman pickup option, I'll also add that they just announced Evertune bridges available on the Aries, there's been hints at a Johnny Hiland signature model (possibly with the Hipshot "tele" bridge and his own pickups), and the Mark Kiesel-designed Beryllium pickup release video. All *after* NAMM.


----------



## Albake21 (Feb 1, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Since this thread also contains the release of the Osiris and the Fishman pickup option, I'll also add that they just announced Evertune bridges available on the Aries, there's been hints as a Johnny Hiland signature model (possibly with the Hipshot "tele" bridge and his own pickups), and the Mark Kiesel-designed Beryllium pickup release video. All *after* NAMM.


Damn you beat me to it! I just saw Jeff post about the evertunes.


----------



## Bdtunn (Feb 1, 2018)

Umm is beryllium just a name or is he actually using that material?? If handled improperly that stuff is highly toxic!


----------



## spudmunkey (Feb 1, 2018)

Just as a Fender Mustang contains no actual horse, I think we'll be safe here.


----------



## Bdtunn (Feb 1, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Just as a Fender Mustang contains no actual horse, I think we'll be safe here.



Haha I'm hoping so. I work around that stuff so my heart skipped a beat


----------



## iamaom (Feb 1, 2018)

Bdtunn said:


> Haha I'm hoping so. I work around that stuff so my heart skipped a beat


Yeah they use those cheap donkeys from China instead, Fender's been going down hill for a while.


----------



## sezna (Feb 1, 2018)

Exit Existence said:


> A lot of the Jeff finishes are dye / stain based I believe. Applied by hand instead of sprayed. Then obviously sprayed with clear or matte. Are they worth the money? I don't think so but whatever lol
> 
> That new tropical turquoise is litttt Definitely getting a Osiris 8 or 7 multi scale with that.


as someone who has built a few guitars (i think most of us have), i find oil/dye/stain much easier than a perfect paint coat


----------



## sezna (Feb 1, 2018)

double post


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 2, 2018)

sezna said:


> as someone who has built a few guitars (i think most of us have), i find oil/dye/stain much easier than a perfect paint coat



Depends on your equipment.

Your average Joe isn't going to have the spray setup to easily nail a solid poly finish, but a manufacturer like Kiesel does. 

The stain stuff is all about process. Once you get your process down, the amounts of dye, how you apply it, wait times, sanding form, etc. the outcome becomes a lot more predictable.

The hardest finishes to get right are bursts. At least from my experience. You really need to know what you're doing to get the colors to blend just right. 

That's why you can always spot a wonky burst from a mile away.


----------



## technomancer (Feb 2, 2018)

Why the hell do I have GAS for a Zeus and an Osiris?


----------



## gunch (Feb 2, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Why the hell do I have GAS for a Zeus and an Osiris?



Me too, Zeus 6r haters be damned a ZM6 in a matte metallic finish would be


----------



## KnightBrolaire (Feb 2, 2018)

I want to get a tropic blue or red sparkle zeus at some point.


----------



## technomancer (Feb 2, 2018)

If I end up doing it will probably be a Lambo Pearl Orange Zeus 7 and a Lambo Pearl Blue Osiris 6... but right now Meshuggah Monday is coming


----------



## mbardu (Feb 3, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Why the hell do I have GAS for a Zeus and an Osiris?



I feel you.
Looks like Kiesel has really found a cool design on those.


----------



## Hollowway (Feb 3, 2018)

I was just looking at the in-stock page to see what the Osiris looks like in different combos. Man, those prices escalate QUICKLY with options. With tax and shipping in California, they're pushing $5000 for some of them.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2018)

$5k for a Kiesel?


----------



## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

I’ll have to let you guys know how the Zeus multiscale 8 stacks up to a Strandberg custom shop 8


----------



## iamaom (Feb 3, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> I was just looking at the in-stock page to see what the Osiris looks like in different combos. Man, those prices escalate QUICKLY with options. With tax and shipping in California, they're pushing $5000 for some of them.


Yeah they've always seemed to have ridiculously steeped priced options for a "custom" guitar company. Why can Warmoth give me a body in alder or swamp ash for the same price, but Kiesel suddenly have to charge me $60 for a swamp ash "upgrade"? Why is a rosewood fingerboard more expensive than ebony? Why do they charge extra for a stupid K inlay, if anything they should pay ME to advertise extra for them. hell even just wanting black plastic to inlays over white one they charge $20! Crazy how much insane shit they do plus have bad customer service, yet still get all this business. No idea why another company hasn't swooped in to compete at their level.


----------



## technomancer (Feb 3, 2018)

Hollowway said:


> I was just looking at the in-stock page to see what the Osiris looks like in different combos. Man, those prices escalate QUICKLY with options. With tax and shipping in California, they're pushing $5000 for some of them.



Yeah the ones that get me are stuff like Koa tops... $500 for a figured top, but if you want a GOOD top it's another $600 on top of that. $1100 for a top? Seriously? 



MaxOfMetal said:


> $5k for a Kiesel?



 

If I order one it's going to be basic alder / maple / ebony / trem. Only "upgrades" will be better ebony and the $100 for the Pearl finish. 

There's also stuff I would love to order like the crackle finishes, but no way am I doing anything that is non-returnable with Kiesel's track record. I mean if it had the inspection period I would have already grabbed that orange crackle Osiris multiscale, but I have no idea if I will like the neck / scale length and an all walnut neck is a bit odd so a risk as well.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Yeah the ones that get me are stuff like Koa tops... $500 for a figured top, but if you want a GOOD top it's another $600 on top of that. $1100 for a top? Seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I always suggest upgrading to a 3 or 5 piece neck. Walnut with maple stripes is pure sex for me. Luckily, I found a strandberg with that type of neck so I don't Kiesel anymore.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2018)

technomancer said:


> Yeah the ones that get me are stuff like Koa tops... $500 for a figured top, but if you want a GOOD top it's another $600 on top of that. $1100 for a top? Seriously?



For $1400 Suhr will give you a figured Koa _body_.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

Okay I’m in a Wendy’s right now and it dawned on me 

Kiesel is Wendy’s.

Explanation: jeff says a lot on live feeds that they use real tops/etc unlike some other guys

Wendy’s has a slogan on a poster in their stores
We use fresh beef not thawed, like some other guys.

Conclusion: It is just marketing!


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

Also for their options it’s like Moes burritos.

You can have these basic toppings for your burritos but if you want a special type of meat it’s extra. Oh you want bacon? That’s 1.99 on a 8-9 dollar burrito. Oh you want quac or quest? 1 dollar extra.

It’s basic marketing lol, things add up in every form of business. Offering more specific and popular options at a higher price isn’t smart or stupid, it’s a basic fundamental!


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2018)

Hey, good on them for charging what they do. If some rube hops on it, and is happy, cool. Just good luck flipping that thing on Reverb without taking a bath. 

To the fast food analogy: around here there's a steakhouse called Karnivor. The food is amazing. They charge top dollar for steak, but it really is exceptional. Now, imagine paying the same for a steak from Denny's.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Hey, good on them for charging what they do. If some rube hops on it, and is happy, cool. Just good luck flipping that thing on Reverb without taking a bath.
> 
> To the fast food analogy: around here there's a steakhouse called Karnivor. The food is amazing. They charge top dollar for steak, but it really is exceptional. Now, imagine paying the same for a steak from Denny's.


 
Exactly. 

Also add in customer loyalty as well, they’ve been going to Denny’s for 29 years and the ownership seand tours over. They still go because tradition. Even after one bad experience and a break from it they always come back because it tastes like America.

I’ve never had a problem reselling Kiesels. I price them after deposit for resale with the fact that if I returned it I wouldn’t receive my deposit back


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## Hollowway (Feb 3, 2018)

Yeah, as has been said on here before, for a basic build, Kiesel is hard to beat, value wise (provided you don't get something that you need to talk with customer service on.) Anyone who wants a stripped down Blackmachine-esque build has it made. But, start playing around with options and it gets straight up crazy. 

What IS weird is that there are certain options that people want, and the response is always, "You can't just do that - it takes a lot of CNC programming, testing, tweaking, testing, etc." Yet, Jeff programs whole new bodies at a pace I almost can't keep track of anymore. So I think that the rationale for not doing certain options is just that they don't want to do it. Which is fine, as it's his company.


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## Hollowway (Feb 3, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> I’ve never had a problem reselling Kiesels *to Hollowway*. I price them after deposit for resale with the fact that if I returned it I wouldn’t receive my deposit back



FTFY.  

It's cuz you have killer specs. And that resin8 (see what I did there?) is supposed to arrive today!


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## diagrammatiks (Feb 3, 2018)

You don’t get your deposit back on their 14 day returns?


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## spudmunkey (Feb 3, 2018)

I don't think that's true, because you can place a build without a deposit... Unless it's some sort of requirement for some custom options.


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> I don't think that's true, because you can place a build without a deposit... Unless it's some sort of requirement for some custom options.



You pay either 20% or the full amount or they won't start the build.

If you could just order something without paying a dime folks would troll the shit out of them. 

I know you used to be able to submit an order without payment/deposit, but that just reserved your spot in the queue. You had to pay at least the deposit before they'd begin the actual build process.



Kiesel Website said:


> You can get your Kiesel Guitars Custom Shop guitar or bass build started by paying a deposit of 20% of the total price (excluding shipping). When you pay a deposit, we'll begin your build immediately, and when your build is complete, we'll automatically bill you the balance using the same billing method as you used for the deposit. The Guitar Builder has an option at the end to select this method of payment. Note that if you're paying by check, we will not start your build until your deposit check has cleared. If you wish to change your billing method for the remaining balance, please call 858-484-8277 to make arrangements (be sure to have your order number handy).


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## spudmunkey (Feb 3, 2018)

Ha, oh yeah... I'm a dumbass. Because I just paid up front, so my brain this morning (forgive me as I had a 16 hr work day yesterday, and now I'm getting sick) just jumped to "no deposit". Ha!


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## MaxOfMetal (Feb 3, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Ha, oh yeah... I'm a dumbass. Because I just paid up front, so my brain this morning (forgive me as I had a 16 hr work day yesterday, and now I'm getting sick) just jumped to "no deposit". Ha!



I had to check just to make sure, because I almost thought you were right. 

If you were we were about to have one of the most legendary mock up threads in SSO history.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

It’s 20 percent deposit. 10 day trial. 20 percent restocking fee. 

And Holloway looking forward to the NGD!


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## Hollowway (Feb 3, 2018)

Wow, I didn’t realize they have a restocking fee. Is that new?


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> It’s 20 percent deposit. 10 day trial. 20 percent restocking fee.
> 
> And Holloway looking forward to the NGD!



If there is a restocking fee it is new. In fact when I was looking at ordering a Vader my sales rep actually told me to buy an in stock to make sure I liked the design and then return it before I ordered since I would lose nothing.

The site does say if you cancel a guitar before it is received there is a 20% fee and that they reserve the right to charge a restocking fee on items that are "hard to resell" or damaged.


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## MiPwnYew (Feb 3, 2018)

I hate that I've really been liking the Osiris and Zeus models and have spec'd out a couple of them on the website. I really dislike Jeff's attitude/vibe in videos, plus all the horror stories about their customer service. Damn do they seem like a good design and value though lol, just not sure if I can bring myself to support Kiesel...


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

MiPwnYew said:


> I hate that I've really been liking the Osiris and Zeus models and have spec'd out a couple of them on the website. I really dislike Jeff's attitude/vibe in videos, plus all the horror stories about their customer service. Damn do they seem like a good design and value though lol, just not sure if I can bring myself to support Kiesel...


The sales guys like Chris, Keith and mike are great. If you want to order a be don’t think of it as supporting jeff but supporting the hardworking employees under him


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## technomancer (Feb 3, 2018)

r3tr0sp3ct1v3 said:


> The sales guys like Chris, Keith and mike are great. If you want to order a be don’t think of it as supporting jeff but supporting the hardworking employees under him



Problem is it IS supporting Jeff, and he also calls all the shots on everything so if you have a problem he is who makes the decisions. I bounced a lot of emails with my rep talking about guitars and literally every question was, "Well let me check with Jeff and I'll get back to you." 

I've been having the same debate myself since I like the new designs quite a bit


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 3, 2018)

I'm just going to wait a year and see what kind of crazy zeus 8 strings pop up used.


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## r3tr0sp3ct1v3 (Feb 3, 2018)

*mod edit: this is what PMs are for*


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