# Racism in metal



## Samer (Apr 10, 2007)

This is a topic we haven't really discussed on here. What do you guys think about racism in metal music, and why the trend epically in black metal? 

Bands like Thors Hammer, Burzum, and Graveland are all racist in one way or another. 

I am anti racist, sexist, or anything else that discriminants people based on factors they could not chose but were born with.

Whats the deal with some of these bands, and whats your opinion on this matter?


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## D-EJ915 (Apr 10, 2007)

Well black metal is anti-christian, so I guess some guys feel the need to be super-douchebags and hate on other groups as well. It is pretty lame  which is why I like how silly death metal lyrics are.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 10, 2007)

hey, you know what, i dont like censorship


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## Carrion (Apr 10, 2007)

I bring you the craziest band ever:

Grinded Nig.

Their best-of album is called "Freezer Full Of Nigger Heads", that pretty much speaks for itself. One of their lyrics:

Late night mutilation &#8211; Freezer full of Nigger heads
Deprived brain of violence &#8211; Freezer full of Nigger heads
Manical rage, the cause of a &#8211; Freezer full of Nigger heads
Frozen rot it comes from a &#8211; Freezer full of Nigger heads

Demented thoughts, sharpening my blade
Racially motivated, my actions are what I love
Unsympathetic attacks on the nasty nigger
It&#8217;s my sickening urge to kill for my race

Beat his fucking head with a baseball bat
Drag the stiff simian back to my retreat
Pull out the saw, cleave the vertebra
Now I take the head, add to my collection

Jive talkin&#8217; nigger, an axe for his neck
Just a lower race, breed like roaches
Extermination of the black race
OF THE BLACK RACE!!!!!

Just wow.....


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 10, 2007)

i find it pretty extreme there, but still, i dont like people telling me what is allowed to be said and not


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## D-EJ915 (Apr 10, 2007)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> hey, you know what, i dont like censorship


I agree, but I think all of us consider racism to be heinous.


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## Metal Ken (Apr 10, 2007)

D-EJ915 said:


> Well black metal is anti-christian, so I guess some guys feel the need to be super-douchebags and hate on other groups as well. It is pretty lame  which is why I like how silly death metal lyrics are.


Or we could you know, not make blanket statements. 

Depends on the band. some bands want nothing to do with religion. Immortal could care less. Thyrfing just wants to be vikings. Bal-Sagoth likes swords a lot. 
My problems come with bands like Arghoslent and Skrewdriver and whatnot, who are just around to hate people who arent white. but one is a punk and one is a melodic death metal. Ironically, the most hateful bands i can think of aren't Black Metal


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Apr 10, 2007)

oh i couldnt agree more that its dispickable to act like race matters at all as to what kind of person some one is, but the cool think about music is that, for some of these bands you might see why they feel that way if you read the lyrics, most people have a reason they feel like that, so it might make others understand why they have a view like that


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## Metal Ken (Apr 10, 2007)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> oh i couldnt agree more that its dispickable to act like race matters at all as to what kind of person some one is, but the cool think about music is that, for some of these bands you might see why they feel that way if you read the lyrics, most people have a reason they feel like that, so it might make others understand why they have a view like that



There's no justifiable reason for racism.


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## leatherface2 (Apr 10, 2007)

Carrion said:


> I bring you the craziest band ever:
> 
> Grinded Nig.
> 
> ...


the lyrics are about as good as one of those boy band like ..........whats that one oh yeah the one with justin tinmberlake.........backstreet boys and guys? wonder how good the music is or do they play instruments?


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## Naren (Apr 10, 2007)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> oh i couldnt agree more that its dispickable to act like race matters at all as to what kind of person some one is, but the cool think about music is that, for some of these bands you might see why they feel that way if you read the lyrics, most people have a reason they feel like that, so it might make others understand why they have a view like that



It doesn't matter what their reason is. I could get sent to jail for brutally raping and murdering 50 junior high school girls and someone says "Well, I can see how you'd be disturbed hearing that he did that, but most people have a reason they feel that way. So, let's try to understand why he has a view like that." Maybe when I was a boy, I was abused by my mother which grew into a hatred for all women, focused on junior high school girls because of any experience where...

Like Ken said, there is no excuse for racism. I don't care if you grew up in a neighborhood where you were beat up by Mexicans every day. That doesn't give you the right to start a band where you sing about massacring the hispanic people of the world, annihilating the populations of South and Central America.

No excuse.


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## Gamba (Apr 10, 2007)

Naren said:


> That doesn't give you the right to start a band where you sing about massacring the hispanic people of the world, annihilating the populations of South and Central America.
> 
> No excuse.


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## ohio_eric (Apr 10, 2007)

If a band sings lyrics that offend me I simply wouldn't buy their music and I wouldn't encourage anyone else to buy their music. It's a free country feel free to be a total dumb ass. Just don't expect me to listen and especially pay to listen.


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## telecaster90 (Apr 10, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> There's no justifiable reason for racism.



+1


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## Rick (Apr 10, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> There's no justifiable reason for racism.





ohio_eric said:


> If a band sings lyrics that offend me I simply wouldn't buy their music and I wouldn't encourage anyone else to buy their music. It's a free country feel free to be a total dumb ass. Just don't expect me to listen and especially pay to listen.



Couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks guys.


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## OzzyC (Apr 11, 2007)

Racism=/= Metal
Sexism=/= Metal
Religious prejudice=/= Metal


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## InTheRavensName (Apr 11, 2007)

If you don't like it don't fucking buy it... ¬.¬

Each to their own I suppose, there will always be racism, sexism, religious hatred etc. and there will always be music, I suppose it's inevitable that they will be linked, if you don't like it, most you can do really is not support it


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## Cancer (Apr 11, 2007)

The funniset thing I find, is that most metal, even the Christian stuff if you think about it, has a level of hate of some kind in it somewhere. Really isn't that part of the initial attraction, it's rebellious nature? 

I read in a self help book once that "anger is the energy for change", and since anger and hate are closely related, I can't really see how you can be rebellious without hating something (the government, society, normal people, the fact that your mom makes you cut the grass...., whatever). 

What I wish people would starting doing is the work to discover why you "hate" what you do, why does the government bother you, why does religion bother you, why does the nappy headed ho' bother you (please don't fire me....lol)? Seems to me until you get to core of what's bothering you, then you can't really expect to resolve it in a meaningful way, which means your hate grows weedlike, and then infects the other parts of your being.

Someone once bought to my attention that the Chapelblaque stuff had a real misoyginistic edge to it, and upon further examination I discovered that I had unresolved issues concerning my first almost wife, which then manifest itself in the music, but had my friend not bought that to my attention, or had I not had a way to express those feelings, why I still may be hiding the cheerleader bodies to this day....

Opps, did I just say that......


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## Desecrated (Apr 11, 2007)

I boycott all kind of racism. If I was in power I would banned them, I don&#8217;t think we should have freedom of speech when it harms more then it helps. Freedom is a tool for intelligent adults not a toy for morons.


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## Metal Ken (Apr 11, 2007)

To me, people who have music with religious issues isn't a problem. You know why? You can change your religion. You can't change a gender or a race. 

Desecrated - The problem with that, is for one, if you start banning stuff based on content, someone has to draw a line with their personal morals, and they might start banning stuff thats offensive to them and not other people, like, maybe they'd be christian and not like the 'message' of slayer and ban them. 
Since you can't draw that distinction, you can't really have someone saying whats cool and what isnt, and secondly, you really can't legislate morality. the best thing you can do is, like said above, not support and let people actively know you don't support bands with that message.


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## Clydefrog (Apr 11, 2007)

Naren said:


> It doesn't matter what their reason is. I could get sent to jail for brutally raping and murdering 50 junior high school girls and someone says "Well, I can see how you'd be disturbed hearing that he did that, but most people have a reason they feel that way. So, let's try to understand why he has a view like that." Maybe when I was a boy, I was abused by my mother which grew into a hatred for all women, focused on junior high school girls because of any experience where...
> 
> Like Ken said, there is no excuse for racism. I don't care if you grew up in a neighborhood where you were beat up by Mexicans every day. That doesn't give you the right to start a band where you sing about massacring the hispanic people of the world, annihilating the populations of South and Central America.
> 
> No excuse.



I'm pretty sure I have the right to sing about anything I want, thanks.



Desecrated said:


> I boycott all kind of racism. If I was in power I would banned them, I dont think we should have freedom of speech when it harms more then it helps. Freedom is a tool for intelligent adults not a toy for morons.



Your ideas frighten me and I hope you never come into any position of power anywhere.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 11, 2007)

If I like the music I could care less.


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)

I think freedom of speech is just that. Some people have stupid, ignorant things to say and others have far more intelligent things to say. Either way, it's their right to say it. And it's also you're right to not like it and not support it. I tend to steer clear of bands that I find to be prejudice and offensive, but that's because it's something that I don't tolerate.

For the most part, I'd say that metal heads are probably the most welcoming and least prejudiced group out there. I think rap tends to be racist, country boys tend to harbor some of those feelings, and the classical geeks tend to be a tad belittling based on culture and $$. Of course, those are generalizations, but I do believe that metal heads are the most tolerant group out there. We tend to be more about uniting and standing up for ourselves and our rights than other groups.


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## NegaTiveXero (Apr 11, 2007)

nitelightboy said:


> I think freedom of speech is just that. Some people have stupid, ignorant things to say and others have far more intelligent things to say. Either way, it's their right to say it. And it's also you're right to not like it and not support it. I tend to steer clear of bands that I find to be prejudice and offensive, but that's because it's something that I don't tolerate.
> 
> For the most part, I'd say that metal heads are probably the most welcoming and least prejudiced group out there. I think rap tends to be racist, country boys tend to harbor some of those feelings, and the classical geeks tend to be a tad belittling based on culture and $$. Of course, those are generalizations, but I do believe that metal heads are the most tolerant group out there. We tend to be more about uniting and standing up for ourselves and our rights than other groups.


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## distressed_romeo (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> I boycott all kind of racism. If I was in power I would banned them, I dont think we should have freedom of speech when it harms more then it helps. Freedom is a tool for intelligent adults not a toy for morons.



You're on a very slippery slope there...


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## SevenatoR (Apr 11, 2007)

Wasn't there a Type-O song, "Kill All the White People"?

Death metal? Pass...

If you want to know how I feel about it, the other guitar player in my band is a black guy.


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## Desecrated (Apr 11, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> To me, people who have music with religious issues isn't a problem. You know why? You can change your religion. You can't change a gender or a race.
> 
> Desecrated - The problem with that, is for one, if you start banning stuff based on content, someone has to draw a line with their personal morals, and they might start banning stuff thats offensive to them and not other people, like, maybe they'd be christian and not like the 'message' of slayer and ban them.
> Since you can't draw that distinction, you can't really have someone saying whats cool and what isnt, and secondly, you really can't legislate morality. the best thing you can do is, like said above, not support and let people actively know you don't support bands with that message.



You can legislate morallity if it is based on logic, rascism is not logical therefore we ban it. Depending on what political system you use you can also ban it like, Ochlocracy (mob rule), Direct democrazy like socialism and anarchism and so on.


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> You can legislate morallity if it is based on logic, rascism is not logical therefore we ban it. Depending on what political system you use you can also ban it like, Ochlocracy (mob rule), Direct democrazy like socialism and anarchism and so on.



Morality isn't something that is that easy. Morality is based on individual experiences and beliefs. Serial killers often times think of themselves as being very moral people. Yet they murder loads of people. And who's logic would you use to determine if something is moral or not? Yours? 

I don't believe that you can legislate a person's feelings towards others. I don't have to agree with their beliefs, nor do they have to agree with mine. All that you can do is respect a person's beliefs, even if you think it's a load of crap. Racism and prejudice is an individual thing and you don't have to like it. But you also can't go around and tell people that they can't be prejudiced. Because guess what happens....Now you're prejudice towards people who have prejudice beliefs. Kind of defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it? 

The best thing to do is to not associate with people who's beliefs you are strongly against. It may be bands, people from work or school, or family members. Hell, I don't talk to half of my mom's family because they feel that anyone that isn't Italian has no right to live.


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## noodles (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> You can legislate morallity if it is based on logic, rascism is not logical therefore we ban it. Depending on what political system you use you can also ban it like, Ochlocracy (mob rule), Direct democrazy like socialism and anarchism and so on.



"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

What part of that is so hard to understand? Where does it say you have the right *not* to be offended?

I do not support the KKK. I think they are hateful, petty, illogical people. However, I do support their right to assemble, and their right to march down the streets of Washington, DC in protest. I will not deny anyone their rights, lest it be my rights on the chopping block one day. This is the true price of freedom: you must defend the rights of someone you despise.


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## stuz719 (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> You can legislate morality if it is based on logic, racism is not logical therefore we ban it. Depending on what political system you use you can also ban it like, Ochlocracy (mob rule), Direct democracy like socialism and anarchism and so on.



As nitelightboy says, though, morality isn't [always] based on logic. For example, if I were a strict utilitarian then eugenics would be perfectly logical, because the ultimate utility would, logically, be gained by allowing euthanising (if that's a word) the mentally and physically handicapped.

One could actually make a logical argument _for_ racism, for example in Darwinian terms, but ultimately any such argument would probably either be based on fallacies or specious arguments, so although it would be logical it would not be sound.

For example, the following is logical:

A: All cats have four legs.
B: My dog has four legs.
C: Therefore my dog is a cat.

I'm not sure that you can class socialism or anarchism as "direct democracy", either, as I'm not sure what you mean by that term.



noodles said:


> This is the true price of freedom: you must defend the rights of someone you despise.



 

e-rep for you, young man.


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## Cancer (Apr 11, 2007)

You could probably make a BETTER logical argument for classism, or even culturism, since these can be changed or learned. Really, I believe most racism is just that, misunderstood culturism. I offer the rise of the urbanized suburban teens (they call them "wiggers" here, dumbest thing I ever heard, wordwise, sounds like a group of people who like to trade hairpieces) as proof.

....or those cute white chicks flashing the gang signs, remember them?


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)

noodles said:


> I will not deny anyone their rights, lest it be my rights on the chopping block one day. This is the true price of freedom: you must defend the rights of someone you despise.



It sucks, but it sure is a hell of alot easier of a sacrifice to make than some of the ones that our government is telling us to make now in support of the "War on Terror". I love my freedom to think and say what I want and never want to lose that. Even if it means that I have to support the rights of people who, as Dave put it, are hateful and full of evil bunnies that make them say and do dumb crap. I think it's a sacrifice that's _worth_ making. Without it, forums like this would be illegal.


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## distressed_romeo (Apr 11, 2007)

noodles said:


> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
> 
> What part of that is so hard to understand? Where does it say you have the right *not* to be offended?
> 
> I do not support the KKK. I think they are hateful, petty, illogical people. However, I do support their right to assemble, and their right to march down the streets of Washington, DC in protest. I will not deny anyone their rights, lest it be my rights on the chopping block one day. This is the true price of freedom: you must defend the rights of someone you despise.



 Agree 100% with everything here. If you want to live in a free society, then the trade-off is that occasionally you have to accept that people who you may find morally reprehensible also share those rights. The world is an imperfect place, and unfortunately nothing comes for free.


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## noodles (Apr 11, 2007)

D-EJ915 said:


> Well black metal is anti-christian, so I guess some guys feel the need to be super-douchebags and hate on other groups as well. It is pretty lame  which is why I like how silly death metal lyrics are.



Well, you have to understand something about a large chunk of the black metal community, living in places like Norway. In the ninth and tenth centuries, Christian kings started to come to power, and they swept out the "pagan" beliefs like so much garbage, forcing the people to convert. To this day, their is an official Church of Norway, and Christianity is the nationally established religion.

Much of black metal is a backlash against that. This is where church burnings came from: rather than "super-douchebags" who "hate on" people, it is a violent backlash against religious oppression by the government. I'm not saying burning churches is right, but neither is mandating religion.

You really cannot separate much of this music from it's context, because it is protest music, pure and simple. As Americans, we really cannot hope to fully understand the lives those people lead.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 11, 2007)

stuz719 said:


> For example, the following is logical:
> 
> A: All cats have four legs.




Actually in logic you can't make a statement like that. To prove that A is true, you would have to assemble and inspect all cats that ever were, are, and will ever be.


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## stuz719 (Apr 11, 2007)

noodles said:


> You really cannot separate much of this music from it's context, because it is protest music, pure and simple. As Americans, we really cannot hope to fully understand the lives those people lead.



 

A portion of BM is also effectively (and how I hate this term) "praise music" - I'm thinking of the bands who focus on the old gods of nature et cetera here.

There's also an aspect of 'satanism' that effectively worships (or at least holds on highest regard) the ultimate power of man over his own destiny, rather than being subservient to the will of a god. Again, "praise music".



JJ Rodriguez said:


> Actually in logic you can't make a statement like that. To prove that A is true, you would have to assemble and inspect all cats that ever were, are, and will ever be.



You've proved my point exactly. The logical conclusion ("My dog is a cat") is based on a fallacy that all cats have for legs...


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 11, 2007)

Okay, I getcha. I didn't know that was the point you were trying to make


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## Toshiro (Apr 11, 2007)

stuz719 said:


> There's also an aspect of 'satanism' that effectively worships (or at least holds on highest regard) the ultimate power of man over his own destiny, rather than being subservient to the will of a god.



That would be the "Church Of Satan", which is $200 membership fee, Atheists club, for the most part. Not truly Satanism in the way a Christian would think.


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## Makelele (Apr 11, 2007)

noodles said:


> Much of black metal is a backlash against that. This is where church burnings came from: rather than "super-douchebags" who "hate on" people, it is a violent backlash against religious oppression by the government. I'm not saying burning churches is right, but neither is mandating religion.



Yes, there was religious oppression, but that was a long time ago. These days they've got just as much religious freedom in Norway as everywhere else. Yes, there is a church of Norway, but it is completely voluntary to belong to it, so the church-burnings have no grounds in common sense. Destroying important pieces of your country's culture is fucking stupid.


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## noodles (Apr 11, 2007)

Makelele said:


> Yes, there was religious oppression, but that was a long time ago. These days they've got just as much religious freedom in Norway as everywhere else. Yes, there is a church of Norway, but it is completely voluntary to belong to it, so the church-burnings have no grounds in common sense. Destroying important pieces of your country's culture is fucking stupid.



I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I actually supported the actions of some of these bands, because nothing could be further from the truth. I was simply arguing that they were idealists filled with contempt for a specific thing, rather than people who just hate for the sake of being hateful.


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## Karl Hungus (Apr 11, 2007)

Samer said:


> whats your opinion on this matter?



Hmm... I think you can listen to music of that sort, and enjoy it purely on a musical level.

I sometimes listen to Burzum. I think it's great music. However, I think Varg is a complete fruitcake.

Do I support murder? No.
Do I support racism? No.
Do I support church burning? No.
Do I like Burzum's music? Yes.

It's all down to listening to the music subjectively. The fact that Varg's a murderer doesn't impeded my enjoyment of 'The Crying Orc' for example.


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## Drew (Apr 11, 2007)

7 Strings of Hate said:


> oh i couldnt agree more that its dispickable to act like race matters at all as to what kind of person some one is, but the cool think about music is that, for some of these bands you might see why they feel that way if you read the lyrics, most people have a reason they feel like that, so it might make others understand why they have a view like that




Um, what _possible_ reason could ever exist for wanting "a freezer full of nigger-heads?"

Are you an asshole, or just incredibly stupid? 

I'm with noodles (as usual). It's their music, and they can write it as they see fit. That doesn't mean I have to buy it, listen to it, or even tolerate it being played in my presence.


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## skattabrain (Apr 11, 2007)

Drew said:


> I'm with noodles (as usual). It's their music, and they can write it as they see fit. That doesn't mean I have to buy it, listen to it, or even tolerate it being played in my presence.



agreed.

just don't whine when you suffer an intense beat down for wearing a shirt that says "freezer full of nigga heads" in public.


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## Desecrated (Apr 11, 2007)

Morality is based on individual experiences and beliefs. Serial killers often times think of themselves as being very moral people. Yet they murder loads of people. And who's logic would you use to determine if something is moral or not? Yours?

Yes mine.




noodles said:


> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."
> 
> What part of that is so hard to understand? Where does it say you have the right *not* to be offended?



Who ever said anything about the american congress. 
I dont like rascism, if I had power i would forbid it, 
there are other political system, that uses this kind of thinking, yes morality is

stuz719

You can base morality on logic. 

1. suffering is bad
2. hitting someone leeds to suffering.
3 therefore hitting some one is bad. 

You have to prove tha suffering is bad and a couple of more things to make this more legit, but since this is a sevenstring forum and not a philiosophy forum i wont go in to it. but morality can be bassed on logic. 

Direct democracy is a form of democracy that is used in anarchism, I might have the wrong english term but it´s a way where you can use morality as a way of making laws. 

everybody

I think that the american interpetationof the word freedom is wrong, what you think is freedom is for me chaos where everything is alowed. I think that my freedom stops where somewhere else freedoms starts, it means that only by some restriction can we have full freedom, it´s a nice paradox, but often when you dealing with reality things contridict each other.


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## Rick (Apr 11, 2007)

skattabrain said:


> agreed.
> 
> just don't whine when you suffer an intense beat down for wearing a shirt that says "freezer full of nigga heads" in public.


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> Yes mine.



Ok, so you missed my point there. Why is your logic better than mine? Or better than a racists? What makes your logic and your morality so good? How do you know that what you can logically deduce as being moral, someone else can't logically come to the same conclusion?


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## Metal Ken (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> You can base morality on logic.
> 
> 1. suffering is bad
> 2. hitting someone leeds to suffering.
> 3 therefore hitting some one is bad.



This is a horribly simplified argument. 
Thats like saying:
Causing Pain is cruel
Doctors cause pain when they do surgery
Therefore, Doctors are cruel.

And you know thats not the case (well, in the vast majority, anyway). 
THere's no blanket logic that works in EVERY situation ALL the time.


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## Drew (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> Morality is based on individual experiences and beliefs. Serial killers often times think of themselves as being very moral people. Yet they murder loads of people. And who's logic would you use to determine if something is moral or not? Yours?
> 
> Yes mine.




They have a word for that. It's called "totalitarianism." 

And arguably a lot of what's wrong with America today is just that - Bush is using his conception of what's "moral" as the basis for legislation/military action. 

More to the point, I think your understanding of constitutional "freedom" in America is slightly flawed. Admittedly, it's a mistaken belief many Americans share with you, but it runs as follows: there are two primary types of freedom in the world, "freedom from..." and "freedom to..." They may be similar, but they're not necessarily the same and in some occasions they ARE mutually exclusive. The American constitution, then, was based on freedom as "freedom from." Americans don't have a constitutional right to have freedom to DO anythings, although many American freedoms can be interpreted in this way (say, a "freedom to vote"). Rather, their freedoms are freedoms from persecution in various forms - it's not a freedom to vote, but rather a freedom from disenfranchisement due to personal, religious, or political beliefs. 

This is a very subtle distinction, but it's one that completely undercuts your argument. A strict "freedom to..." belief does, as you argue, lead to anarchy. However, a strict "freedom from" belief does not. 

Specifically to the point here, All american citizens have freedom from racial prosecution and discrimination - they do not have to stand for discrimination, disadvantagement, or second class treatment, because one of their constitutionally guaranteed freedoms is freedom from such discrimination. However, importantly, they do not have freedom TO stop others from having viewpoints that may consider them as inferior to others based on their race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. Because their own constitutionally guaranteed right is one to prevent their being discriminated against and having rights and liberties removed due to factors of race, sexual orientation, sex, or belief, by the same token they can not discriminate against others and take away their freedom from persecution or silencing due to viewpoints they may have. 

So, no matter how "wrong" racism may be (and I too agree it's wrong), the fact of the matter is that all citizens have the right not to be prosecuted for having opinions and beliefs. As long as their beliefs are not manifest in a manner that does not infringe upon other's freedom from prosecution (i.e - lynching someone, as opposed to just saying black people are subhuman), then they are allowed to express their beliefs without fear of reprisal. 

So, in short, the american constitution is one based upon not guaranteed rights of action, but rather negation of guaranteed rights of action of others. It's a fine line, but it's one that effectively allows us to bypass the sort of "where do you stop" slippery slope arguments that are cropping up all over this thread. 

You're allowed to run for government based upon a "ban racism" platform, if you were an American - your constitutional right to not be persecuted for your views prevents me from stopping you - but while I too am against racism, I'd be voting against you becauuse once you cross over from "freedom from" to "freedom to," there's no limits to what the government can ban.


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)

Nicely put Drew. I actually hadnt thought of the "freedom from" and "freedom to" distinction before.


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## noodles (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> Who ever said anything about the american congress.
> I dont like rascism, if I had power i would forbid it,
> there are other political system, that uses this kind of thinking, yes morality is



Well, I'm speaking for where I am from. Sorry, I didn't pay enough attention to your profile to see where you are from.

I'm glad you're not making the rules in my country, though. I don't support anyone telling anyone else what they can/cannot do, based solely upon something as flexible and undefined as "morals". When I read statements like yours, I tend to think of the Catholic Church in the middle ages, and how they regulated "morality" by censoring science and persecuting heretics.


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## Makelele (Apr 11, 2007)

Defining what racism exactly is wouldn't be easy either, if there were a law forbidding it.

For example, over here there have been lots of problems with Somalian immigrants causing trouble. Some people think they should be sent back if they start commiting lots of crimes. Those people then get called racists by some people, because of their opinions, even if they don't want to throw those who do adapt to society out.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 11, 2007)

If you believe Kant's Universal Imperative, you can base morality on logic/reason. I think the gist of it is basically an over glorified Do Unto Others type deal. I took it in a philosophy class in my first year at university so it's kind of hazy since that was a few years ago.


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## Metal Ken (Apr 11, 2007)

Kant's idea of the Categorical Imperative (Highly simplified):
Imagine the conditions created if everyone in the world copied your action, or held your viewpoint.


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## stuz719 (Apr 11, 2007)

Desecrated said:


> You can base morality on logic.
> 
> 1. suffering is bad
> 2. hitting someone leads to suffering.
> ...



I don't agree with premise (2) - for example, if someone were beating you to a pulp, and the only way to stop them and save your life was to hit them your logic would dictate that instead I should let them carry on with the pounding, because if I hit them I would cause suffering, and that would be bad...

Unless, of course, you wish to qualify it by saying that causing some suffering is OK as long as it diminishes the total quantity of suffering. That then leads onto questions of how one quantifies "suffering" and who decides what level is acceptable.


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## Metal Ken (Apr 11, 2007)

stuz719 said:


> I don't agree with premise (2) - for example, if someone were beating you to a pulp, and the only way to stop them and save your life was to hit them your logic would dictate that instead I should let them carry on with the pounding, because if I hit them I would cause suffering, and that would be bad...



It also leaves masochists out of the picture.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 11, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> Kant's idea of the Categorical Imperative (Highly simplified):
> Imagine the conditions created if everyone in the world copied your action, or held your viewpoint.



Well I was kind of right


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## bulb (Apr 11, 2007)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Well I was kind of right



yeah basically thats what he said, i liked kant, seemed to me to be the most reasonable of the philosophers of that era.

arite im not gonna read the whole debate so ill just let all of yall know where i stand.

first off im a brown jew whose parents are from mauritius (google it)
and thats the simple answer, cuz the further back you look the more of a mutt you will realize i am, but im pretty much the ultimate minority haha!

given that, i think that people should be free to voice their opinions no matter what it is, freedom of speech doesnt mean hearing what people who agree with you say, it means tolerating the fact that people who believe things you dont with all your body and soul are allowed to speak their mind.

now although i dont condone racism in any form, doing something like banning racism would be counterproductive (if one could ever figure out how to do it anyways, kind of a broad subject no?) if only because it would further segregate the races. The whole thing that people seem to miss is that integration is the key to it all, really treating everyone the same, which is why things like affirmative action are counter productive as well.

Anyways back to the point, although i disagree with the messages in racist music, i would never try to ban the bands from playin anywhere, i mean so long as they are just singing and not harming anyone, from a very basic standpoint they are just doing the same as everyone else, so it would be hypocritical to stop them. If they are promoting and provoking violence with their shows and music then its a different story. But if you can basically tell someone "just dont listen or watch or pay attention to them if you dont like it" then they are in the clear.

my $0.14


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)

bulb said:


> my $0.14



Why do you get $0.14 when white people only get $0.02? THAT'S RACIST


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## bulb (Apr 11, 2007)

i did say i was Djewish!


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## nitelightboy (Apr 11, 2007)




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## Mastodon (Apr 11, 2007)

Then wouldn't the stereotype have you paying less? Haha.

By the way, the island that your folks are from sounds amazing.



wikipedia said:


> Mauritian society is highly multi-ethnic. Island residents are the descendants of people from the Indian subcontinent, continental Africa, Madagascar, France, Great Britain, and China, among other places.



This skyline is absolutely beautiful: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Port_Louis_Skyline.JPG


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## shadowgenesis (Apr 11, 2007)

Drew said:


> They have a word for that. It's called "totalitarianism."
> 
> And arguably a lot of what's wrong with America today is just that - Bush is using his conception of what's "moral" as the basis for legislation/military action.
> 
> ...



very very well put.



normally i'm a well-mannered guy who will try to avoid saying anything that may be percieved as me being an asshole.
therefore i have deleted the very bitterly caustic comment i had to say about Desecrated.

but i think your arguments are simply flawed, overly superficial, and likely adopted without in-depth consideration of the larger ramifications of adopting a system of "government" as you have described it.
It reminds me of people who call themselves anarchists but go to Hot Topic to buy their anarchist symbol patches.


but that's the beauty of it i guess. I have to deal with you. And you have to deal with me. And so long as nobody's impeding upon another person's ability to pursue happiness, that's fine and dandy.



i wish i was as well-spoken as some of you guys. i'm impressed


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## Digital Black (Apr 11, 2007)

No more than rap is racist with whites or other non black..


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## lordofthesewers (Apr 11, 2007)

there are plenty of black metal bands that are national socialist like Burzum to some extent, Nokturnal Mortum and many more white supremacy bands and jew hating bands.
Also to make my position clear on this shit: if i ever have children and I catch them listneing to freezer full of nigger heads or national socialist black metal I would make sure they remember that day as their most miserable of their lives.


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## Metal Ken (Apr 11, 2007)

lordofthesewers said:


> there are plenty of black metal bands that are national socialist like Burzum to some extent, Nokturnal Mortum and many more white supremacy bands and jew hating bands.



Yeah, there is a sub genre called Nat'l Socialist Black metal. Oddly, most of the bands are American and not European. Burzum and Nokturnal Mortum are quite tame compared to some other bands. i had a girlfriend a few years ago, her brother was really into black metal(the regular non-racist kind). It was actually REALLY hard for him to find people out in his area who were into black metal who WEREN'T into NSBM. Every time he found someone who had decent abilities, it turned out the guy was a racist, and he'd have to just start looking for someone else again.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Apr 11, 2007)

Next time I get denied something I'm going to scream "IT'S BECAUSE I'M WHITE, ISN't IT?!?!?!?!?!?1!!1111". I want to see what they'll do


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## zimbloth (Apr 11, 2007)

I think context is important too. In the right context racism can be amusing, if it's in an obviously silly/parody kind of way. For example, grindcore lyrics can be amusing sometimes. When I read that"nigger heads in a freezer" thing, I couldn't help but laugh at the randomness and absurdity of it. I don't know anything about that band though, for all I know they COULD actually be racist jerks, but if I had to guess, that just doesn't sound like the kind of lyrics a legitimately hateful person would write. Sounds like someone just trying to be a sillly asshole for fun and is not really serious, albeit immature.

Even if they were serious, I -still- think it's funny. I mean, how can you take them seriously enough to care about their opinions? Or their means for expressing it? It's not as if they're going to change anyone's opinions or values based on their nonsensical racist blackmetal. Not anyone who wasn't a weak-minded loser to begin with anyways.


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## lordofthesewers (Apr 11, 2007)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Next time I get denied something I'm going to scream "IT'S BECAUSE I'M WHITE, ISN't IT?!?!?!?!?!?1!!1111". I want to see what they'll do



i'm gonna do that to my mom and be like: hey can i have 10 bucks to buy whatever. My mom will be like: No, you need better grades, and i will go like: it is because I'm white isn't it?
you just gave me a great idea. thank you dude


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## Oogadee Boogadee (Apr 12, 2007)

Carrion said:


> I bring you the craziest band ever:
> 
> Grinded Nig.
> 
> ...




it's pretty sick. however, EVERY race has haters who're as passionate about exterminating who they see as a minority. Whether or not such feelings become visable in music depends on a few factors. But, point is, you can't be surprised that shit like this exists. Extremists have been here since the beginning, and they'll be around till the end. Kinda like roaches. killing them would help, however.


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