# Soloing over Well You Needn't?



## Charles (Apr 16, 2010)

Can anyone help me out here? I mostly play over eighties style stuff and find it really difficult to play over chords instead of keys (like most rock music).


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## Joeywilson (Apr 16, 2010)

listen.

how much do you know about chords?


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## chucknorrishred (Apr 16, 2010)

if u know scales, just find a related key....nvm i cant explan it


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## Joeywilson (Apr 16, 2010)

chucknorrishred said:


> if u know scales, just find a related key....nvm i cant explan it



not exactly dude, I know what you're getting at but that is the reason that guitar players are mocked for their lack of theroy knowledge.
If you could evaluate the chord change before hand you could determine the key. If you look at everything in terms of notes and not shapes your problem will be solved much quicker.





For simplicity's sake lets stick to the key of C:

We all know (I hope) that the key of C has no sharps or flats

but what if you were soloing over a Cm7b5 chord (C, Eb, Gb, Bb, C)?
It's very helpful to know what notes will work (not saying using outside notes won't sound good, because it can/does in a lot of cases) and what won't, but it is more important to know what the progression will sound like.


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## Charles (Apr 16, 2010)

metallisuk said:


> listen.
> 
> how much do you know about chords?



A fairly limited amount, if I do say so myself. I know what most chords are composed of, (that is, their intervallic structure), but beyond that I'm admittedly a bit clueless. I've tried playing chord tones, but it sounds mechanical to me, and navigating between them is something that is beyond me. Also, keeping up with changes (both mentally and physically) is quite tough for me.


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## Joeywilson (Apr 16, 2010)

Charles said:


> A fairly limited amount, if I do say so myself. I know what most chords are composed of, (that is, their intervallic structure), but beyond that I'm admittedly a bit clueless. I've tried playing chord tones, but it sounds mechanical to me, and navigating between them is something that is beyond me. Also, keeping up with changes (both mentally and physically) is quite tough for me.



Okay, I see where you're coming from, and I can definatly relate. It is mentally straining and is a skill that can only be required one way: through practice.

Do you have an example of what you're trying to solo over? One of the progressions you've tried possibly.


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## FWB (Apr 16, 2010)

I think the easiest thing to start out with for playing over chords is the 12 bar blues. It looks like this in the key of C major: C C C C F F C C G F C C. Each letter would be one bar. It's a 1 4 5 progression. 1 = C. 4 = F. 5 = G.

There's 3 chords happening here. I try to categorize the phrases to play by what notes they end on, and what notes they begin on. I feel that where you end is somewhat more important. You can start almost anywhere you want, but if the band is playing the 5 chord, (G) it's not a good idea to end on the 4 (C) instead.

Try looking for a 12 bar blues jam track (I'm sure there are tons) and playing over it. While you do, as an exercise, try and end phrases on only 1's, 4's, and 5's. You should be able to quickly hear for yourself what works and what doesn't.

This idea of landing on the current chords tonic wouldn't be followed all the time of course. Sometimes you want to end on something different. Also try experimenting with the two other chord tones in the chords. Hopefully someone kind will come around and write something more in depth.


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## Charles (Apr 16, 2010)

Well You Needn't is a Monk tune. It modulates from F7 to Gb7 for most of it (one bar each), but then there's a section where it's Db7 to Db (also one bar each). The most trying part, at least for me, is a section where it's chromatically moving seventh chords in arbitrary directions...crazy tune.


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## FWB (Apr 17, 2010)

I would highly suggest starting with something other then a monk song if you're just getting into playing those chord changes. The same things you will learn from the 1 4 5 will apply to more jazzy situations like a 2 5 1, and whatever that song is doing I'm not sure. It's sorta like when you pick up a guitar for the first time, your concerns shouldn't be alternate picking at 300bpm, it should be fretting a note. And learning to fret that note becomes a big step towards that.


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## chucknorrishred (Apr 17, 2010)

heres something simple

in the key of c 
the E is a Em, the F is Fmaj, G is Gmaj, A is Am, B is Bm, C is Cmaj, D is Dm then it repeats

write whatever chord progression you want with these chords using whatever time measure ( 4/4, 3/4) and if possible record it or use a loop pedal

scales u could use to solo over this key are
C major (of course) E blues, A blues

with the full fretboard scale of Cmaj u can add notes from that scale over any of the chords in its key to gice it a new name but more important a new sound.

with the Gmaj bar chord u could use a high A note with ur pinky making it a new chord or stretch to the high B to ,again, rename the chord

the same can be done with the Am bar or any other bar in this key

im assuming u know the full fretboard Cmaj scale so try this as well
strum the open Em then run the phygian scale over that chord, Fmaj then run Lydian scale, Gmaj then run mixolydian scale, Am then aeolian, Bm then run locrian, Dm then dorian....all this is done on the top (bass) string


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## Demeyes (Apr 17, 2010)

Charles said:


> Well You Needn't is a Monk tune. It modulates from F7 to Gb7 for most of it (one bar each), but then there's a section where it's Db7 to Db (also one bar each). The most trying part, at least for me, is a section where it's chromatically moving seventh chords in arbitrary directions...crazy tune.



Honestly, if you are having trouble with it, switch to something a little easier until you are more comfortable playing over changes and chords. That kind of thing won't come over night and there's no super easy way to get it. You'll need a lot of practice to get good at improvising over jazz progressions.


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## Charles (Apr 17, 2010)

Understood; we're playing it in my jazz combo so I'm just sort of along for the ride, hah.

The other one we're doing is Farmer's Market, which seems to be more or less a glorified blues with more "stuff" in it...(some 2-5-1 stuff, more harmonically dense chords..)


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## Keytarist (Apr 17, 2010)

In what key are you playing this tune?. I will take it as F Major, as published in The Real Book Fifth Edition.


> |F7 |Gb7 | x3
> |F7 | % |


In these first bars, you can take the F7 chord as the root of a blues scale, and over Gb7 you can use lydian dominant.


> |G7 | % |
> |Ab7 | % |


Same thing, but now is G7 using blues scale and over Ab7 lydian dominant.


> |A7 Bb7 | B7 Bb7|A7 Ab7|


In this passage, over every second chord from every measure you can use lydian dominant.


> |G7 C7|


 These two chords lead to F7. You're free to use any scale that fits over a dominant chord, use it over G7, then repeat the same procedure starting from C7. I would emphasize these two chords as they lead to the root of the tune (F7) and it starts again.

Jazz music has a few rules when soloing, so you can use much more other scales and ideas, rather than what is listed above. I considered a lot of chords as tritone substitution chords, so the scale would be lydian dominant. In this tune, a good strategy would be using a lick and then repeating it a semitone up, because the chord progression goes like that. Don't fear of ending with a boring solo if you choose that strategy, you can vary the motifs and use different ones for every two chords, for example. That way, you will assure that your solo will sound coherent, like you're telling a story, instead of going all tricky and ending with nothing.


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## Charles (Apr 20, 2010)

This is the tune, for clarificational purposes.

And Keytarist (as well as everyone else, of course!), I thank you for your contribution. However, I am fairly limited in my knowledge of modes. I know how they work theoretically, and I know a decent amount about the scale-chord relation theory (mixo fitting over dom chords...etc) but I don't know where to learn modes on a physical level (applying "shapes" directly to guitar). Years ago my teacher taught me a bunch of scale shapes for major, minor, minor pent, and that was pretty much where I left off...


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