# I'm ticked... will never give another dime to Toontrack



## Rev2010 (Oct 4, 2010)

So I just purchased an SDX expansion for Superior from Toontrack, the Metal Foundry expansion. I was going to buy it from Guitar Center but after the EZ Drummer with free EZX expansion fiasco I decided to call and check first. To give some info, I bought EZ Drummer from Guitar Center when they ran a free EZX expansion deal. I go to the store they only hand me the EZ Drummer disc and tell me I will have to download the expansion from the Toontrack site. Well, the serial they gave me was only for EZ Drummer and NOT for any expansion. So, I called and asked if the Metal Foundry they have in stock has the CD's since they keep telling customers they only sell the license key and EVERYTHING is downloaded via their website. The guy checks the box and says, "Nah man... it's empty. You'll just download it from their site with our license key". Fucking liars. I bought the download direct from Toontrack tonight just to simplify shit. Well, it wasn't until AFTER I paid via my credit card and went to download that a gay ass message pops up saying it's only a partial download due to the size and that I've have to install the full version when I receive my delivery of the retail version! WTF is up with that!!?? I know it's 35gb but I have a mega fast connection, it could be done by the time I wake up! So now I'm downloading some Win_DVD0.exe install file and would need to wait till I receive the damn full retail version - to which I could've got from GC online or MF and saved $44!!!!

I am so livid pissed off right now. I will never ever give this company a dime from now on and I've bought a number of their products all the way back to DFH Superior. It's no wonder people resort to torrents! You walk into GC and they sell you a "license code" in an empty box and then you still would need to wait for Toontrack to mail you the discs. How can they run a business like this? Oh, and of course there's no phone number... not till you pay and get a receipt then find out it's only a Swedish number. I'm going to dispute this with my card company 


Rev.


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## thesimo (Oct 5, 2010)

i can't follow this at all 

However you don't just get the metal foundry in the mail delivery. You get every single toontrack product (about 15 discs) so that if you ever buy another, you dont need to wait. Which is cool.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

Really? They send you 15 discs? Interesting, but the point it I paid the extra to just download it rather than order it online and wait for the delivery and it turns out I still have to wait for delivery. It's just very misleading, "Buy Download" should not be only disc 1 and even if so they should at least make that clear *before* one pays for it. They have a poor method of selling their products. Why can't GC stock the DVD's?


Rev.


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## drmosh (Oct 5, 2010)

I get why it might annoy you, but it does clearly state the download is NOT the full version


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 5, 2010)

^ Well then it looks like this thread is pointless, no?


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

drmosh said:


> I get why it might annoy you, but it does clearly state the download is NOT the full version



I just checked again, where does it "clearly" state this? I don't see anywhere that says it's a partial download and didn't get that message yesterday until I actually submitted my credit card info.

Look, I know my post is a rant but it's not "pointless". I explained that when I bought EZ Drummer at GC with the free EZX expansion I got screwed out of the expansion because they never gave me the license code. My "point" in all this is why can't these guys just sell their products normally by providing the discs in the box? As I said, when I called GC the guy did check the Metal Foundry box and said it contains no discs. They told me I'd buy it at GC, get a license code, and download it from their site which is plain wrong.


Rev.


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## bostjan (Oct 5, 2010)

I'm with you, Rev. It sounds like an unnecessarily confusing way to do a transaction.

It sounds like it would be easier for both parties to simply include the discs in the box in the first place.


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 5, 2010)

So get your $ back and buy something else...? Is that a possibility?


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 5, 2010)

Is everyone downloading illegally? It seems everyone I hear put up a recording online, with drum tracks, is using this program, and this is the first I've heard of this issue. 

Anyone else run into this?


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

@Konfyouzd - yeah I messaged them last night and just got the confirmation that they canceled the order and will refund the amount to my card.

@Max - I wouldn't be surprised. See I pay for my shit but I do often download first to give the program a test and make sure it's worth the money. Software is not refundable, so it's not like an effect unit you can return if you don't like it. If I like the software then I go buy it. I bought DFH Superior, EZ Drummer, and Superior 2. I bought all my Native Instruments softwares (got the Komplete 5 deal) as well as many other smaller company VST's in the past (ReFX, Voxengo, Exciton).

But yeah, pirating is rampant.


Rev.


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## Prydogga (Oct 5, 2010)

I don't understand, they NEVER have the discs in the boxes? So no matter where you buy it you have to get the CD from Toontrack? Is that the case for everything Superior or just the expansion packs?


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

See that's the thing, seems no one has it straight. I think the MusiciansFriend and Guitar Center online are probably discs in a box, but they definitely don't have the discs at the local GC here in Manhattan for the expansions. Oh, and it's just for the expansions I believe.


Rev.


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## Prydogga (Oct 5, 2010)

So when you bought S2.0 it had the disc in it? How hard was that to install? I've heard some complaints about that process itself being a hassle.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

Yeah it had the discs. Install was flawless though I too have read the complaints that you've seen. Seems that was a while back so maybe the newer pressings were fine.


Rev.


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 5, 2010)

Rev2010 said:


> @Konfyouzd - yeah I messaged them last night and just got the confirmation that they canceled the order and will refund the amount to my card.


 
Well that's cool. At least they didn't hassle you over giving back the $$$ I suppose. Does every retailer sell it this way?

Also... As far as the hassle with installing... I could have sworn I installed this with a friend once back in the day. The installation wasn't a simple... Put in disc... Click Install... Wait 30 seconds kind of thing, but it's by no means difficult if you're at least half way competent...


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

Yeah, I'm glad they refunded it without a problem. Nah the install was perfectly smooth, maybe they changed the installer. I do recall DFH Superior being more of a pain to install but Superior 2 was as easy as chosing the level of install and following the disc prompts.


Rev.


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## Gameboypdc (Oct 5, 2010)

Sad to say it ,but I had a run in like this previously with GC. See many people at GC don't understand that there is a cd/dvd box they have to give you for these software programs. Somewhere somehow these companies decided to bundle all their software into a single box without a cd key and then decided to grant certain stores the ability to just sell you the key. The biggest problem with this is many and if not most GC employees are not fully aware on how this works. They are told most of the time that they are to sell this cd key and to inform the customer that they should use that to download and register their software online. Many are not even aware that these software companies are selling very large programs which of course downloading yes seems convenient it's just not logical for these large sized downloads. So of course GC receives shipment along with their other products full of these, what seem to be display boxes which in fact are the disc's you need to complete your purchase install. They send you out the door with what seems to be 100+ dollars worth of a receipt with nothing in hand so already the feeling of walking out the door just doesn't seem right. Only then to get home attempt to download and find out you were supposed to receive discs. Some of us actually have to drive quite a ways to get to a Guitar Center just to even begin this nightmare only to find out you cant go back till the next day to try and clear it all up. 

I will say that what happened for me was I went back to GC the next day told them that I did my research and that they were supposed to supply me with a bundle of install discs not just for what I payed for but to install other products incase I come back or choose to purchase the cd keys online. They of course didn't understand and had to send their store manager to the back to check and well he found what I needed right away. I would say just take into consideration that Guitar Center employees half the time really don't know anything about what they are selling. I've had countless times where I have had to insist that they are not supplying me with what i've paid for and each time i've been right. I've even had cases where Guitar Center has used copy/paste with product descriptions and proceeded to sell them to customers claiming they offer this and that only for the consumer to come home to disappointment. I've even had and seen similar cases where they claim to offer rebates and bonus items/downloads ..etc that have expired and yet they continue to sell these products promising all these nice things. So I suggest next time if you decide to make a purchase at GC do all your research before you go in cause pretty much all they can do for you is charge you. In regards to online downloads direct I'm not really sure about Toontrack sending you discs I contacted someone in the help department in regards to that and according to them they said the store that supplied you the cd key should supply you the bundled discs. If you made your purchase from the Toontrack site then there should have been information taken and placed necessary to mail you what you need.

Cheers!
Gus


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## Despised_0515 (Oct 5, 2010)

This isn't so much Toontrack's fault as it is Guitar Center's. I will never trust an online download ever since my Steam crashed and I lost a game that was downloading. I either get the disc or I'm not paying.

I was about to buy Superior 2.0 from Guitar Center until they told me the same thing they told you. Instead, I went on eBay, got it for 1/2 price, patiently waited for my discs, and installed them. Even though I could've done the online download from the minute I made my purchase because they e-mailed me my key but I say screw online downloads for this very reason.

Sorry to hear things didn't work out for you but this is an issue you have to work out with Guitar Center. It sucks that a lot of them are filled with people that barely know what they're selling.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

Well, it's refreshing to see others have had them same thing happen to them in store. Glad to see I'm not alone and just come off as some raving lunatic lol. Thanks for sharing that guys 


Rev.


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## nine squares (Oct 5, 2010)

I work at a music store here in Sweden and I´m surprised about you not getting all the CD:s in a box. I sell Toontrack software every week and the only time you actually get a "serial number" ONLY is when you buy the Monster MIDI packages or refills. I guess things are different over at your place and it amazes me how stupid it seems. Hope everything works out for you man.


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## Andii (Oct 5, 2010)

It looks like it's GC you should be pissed at. They were certainly supposed to give you those discs.


Also I would like to tell everyone my opinion on software purchases(including operating systems):
If you pay for software, get optical discs no matter what. Hard drives fail because they are mechanical devices. Even if you are allowed to re download in the event of a HDD failure, eventually the product won't be available for this. 

When you have the discs you can keep using the software you paid for until the day you die. Drum sounds don't go obsolete. 

They sell computers with an OS installed that you paid for and don't include a disc. Guess what happens when it fails for whatever reason. You have to buy another. Take a look at that when buying a computer. Get the disc and you can use it forever. I'm using a copy of XP on my studio computer that someone bought with a machine in 2001. I don't have to give Microsoft a cent for the rest of my compatible hardware's life, and if more hardware that is still compatible with XP is still for sale when my hardware fails, not even then.

If everyone did this MS would be forced to build an OS that warrants upgrading rather than simply selling forever and ever on new machines.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 5, 2010)

Andii said:


> It looks like it's GC you should be pissed at. They were certainly supposed to give you those discs.



Well I was pissed at GC when I never got that expansion for free for EZ Drummer. However in this case I was pissed at Toontrack because they offer "Buy Download", a nice big button that leads one to think they can download the whole thing. I honestly don't mind downloading all the DVD's from their site, it doesn't take all that long for my connection, as noted even if I let it go over night. I would then burn them to my blank DVD's. But having GC give me that bit of nonsense about empty boxes, then to find I still couldn't get the full product off their download had me pissed. I wanted to have it up and running for this weekend, something a shipment wouldn't provide.

But I guess from what was said by others already GC really does have the discs and the sales guys I'd dealt with and spoke to were retarded. I may stop by before the end of the week and try to pick it up at GC. One way or another I'll make sure I get a box with discs.


Rev.


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## Thaeon (Oct 5, 2010)

My wholehearted endorsement as an X GC employee is don't buy from GC. I've seen employees at GC framed for theft just so that they are forced to resign and and then they never have to pay anything back or return the 'stolen' gear, because it's all phantom stuff in a computer system. All so they can save money by promoting the next guy in line with an offer of less money. All GC cares about is profit. In fact one of the things they tell you in training is not to tell your customers that something isn't a right fit... Or even that it sucks due to poor manufacturing... It's all, and I quote, "Good, Better, Best." In my opinion GC is the AIG of music gear sales. Musicians friend is also owned by GC. How fucked up is it that that they own their own competition? 

I'll just stop before I get really pissed...


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 5, 2010)

Thaeon said:


> All GC cares about is profit.



As they should. 

I'd have ZERO confidence buying from a _retail store_, who wasn't concerned with turning a profit, let alone work for one. 

It's nice to think stores are just havens full of helpful musician folk, where you can try out all the fancy gear to your hearts content, without even having to be polite. Just like record labels are supposed to support the artists creative vision and lend helping hand$. 

It's all a business. It's all an industry. All they care about is money, just like the guys making the guitars in sweat shops so GC and the Mom & Pop place down the street can double the wholesale price and feast off of little Johnny Guitarist's lunch money. 

If GC (and their many sub-retailers, and even competition) cared more about placing a guitar in your hand then money in their pocket picking up a "intermediate" guitar would cost as much as a high end custom. (How do you think CS' stay afloat?)

The problem isn't the store, it's the idiot public who thinks the salesman is their friend. We live in a world of cheap internet and free libraries. People need to take some responsibility before they make purchases and not blame it on the green eyed big business with is only as evil as we let it be. 

Sorry for the rant, but GC hate is something I find to be a pain.


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## Thaeon (Oct 6, 2010)

The difference between the run of the mill GC hate, and what I'm talking about is from personal experience from WORKING there. I'm speaking from the perspective of the observant employee, who has seen some shady, SHADY shit happen behind the curtain. The upper management at GC is shady. A lot of them would sell their mom a broken Mitchell acoustic for $3000.00. And no, I was not fired... I quit because I found the environment itself to be too distasteful... I've seen many cool people buy into it and lose their souls to try to work their way up the ladder just to get ground up by the machine.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Called Sam Ash here in Manhattan. They said they do indeed have it in stock so I'm just gonna run by there at lunch today and pick it up. Looks like I may have this by the weekend after all.


Rev.


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## Konfyouzd (Oct 6, 2010)

^ Good to hear


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## Rev2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ Good to hear



Thanks... guess I made a liar of myself cause I said I'd never give them another dime. But I neeeed this expansion LOL. It's too awesome to pass up.


Rev.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

OK guys you're gonna love this. I bought the Metal Foundry expansion from Sam Ash Manhattan tonight for $149 ($162 after tax) and I actually received the 5 disc pack. Got home and checked my receipt and in the pack and guess what... NO serial number! The pack even says boldly "NO SERIAL NUMBER INCLUDED". So the sales guy at Sam Ash sold me the discs without the authorization code. See, this is why it's so aggrevating. So, I think I'll contact Toontrack again and explain what happened, I can scan my receipt for them. Either way, I don't want to wait for the install so I am using a keygen - I did PAY for the shit! I do have a serial from the download purchase but I'm not sure if it will still work so I'll see what they say.

Aahh... fun times. 


Rev.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

Well, already had one reading error on Disc 2 but it worked after hitting retry, now ran into a read error again with Disc 4. Hit try again and it seems to be going for now. Geez.


Rev.


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## MaxOfMetal (Oct 6, 2010)

And to think, software companies are wondering why no one is actually buying their programs anymore. 

It reminds me of when the music industry tried making it so you couldn't easily rip CD's to your computer (mid 90's I believe). It just made playing certain CD's on certain equipment a pain in the ass, thus folks started flocking to illegal copies.

They need to realize that pirated versions of their software will always exist, as well key-gens, and make it so getting (and paying for) the real thing is as painless as possible.


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## Rev2010 (Oct 6, 2010)

^^^  soo soo true. I've paid for this software twice now, though am being refunded the first one of course. So now I have software with no license key thanks to the Sam Ash sales guys AND discs that are bad. I stilll can't get disc 4 to read Soundb12.obw. I'm curently trying to install it on my internet machine which is typically booted into Linux but I have a Windows XP install on. It's running now. Hopefully that will work then I could copy the full install to my external drive then over to my DAW. Still it's a few hours of my time completely wasted and it still might not work. I won't know till I hit disc 4. If this doesn't work I'm returning it to Sam Ash and demanding a store credit (which I could always use so a refund really isn't necessary). If they refuse, which they may try to, I will open a dispute with my credit card company.

So, I guess everyone sees the hassle I'm going through to simply get Metal Foundry? I know my first post was very "ranty" cause I was pissed at the time. But this is truly getting silly now. 

*EDIT - get a load of this thread I found about install problems:

http://www.toontrack.com/forum/tm.aspx?m=88116&mpage=1

*EDIT #2 - finally got it installed using my trusty Memorex DVD burner drive in my internet PC. Everyone rags on the memorex drives but I've used them for years with 100% satisfaction, the CDR's and DVD-R's are another story however. Copied the install to my Memorex external drive and now dropping to my DAW and will test mostly tomorrow. Still was a huge hassle.


Rev.


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## bostjan (Oct 7, 2010)

The industries need to strive to make it easier to legally purchase and install their stuff than it is to illegally download it. A common trigger for people to break the law is the breakdown of the appoved system.

Also, why would Sam Ash have a copy of the software without a serial number?! Did Sam Ash make/purchase a pirated copy?! I've seen vendors selling pirated software in foreign countries like China and Russia, but in Manhattan?!


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## Rev2010 (Oct 7, 2010)

Nah it's Toontrack's system, they call their products "virtual inventory" even though they often provide the discs, makes no sense. So the discs do not contain the authcode, that's something you're supposed to get when purchasing at the store. GC printed out the authcode on my EZ Drummer receipt.

On another note, even though I got it installed I loaded it into a current project (replacing DFH Superior) and now it keeps crashing my Cubase SX3. Yeah I know SX3 is old but I've never had any need to upgrade and it's been nearly rock solid stable.

Rev.


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