# Why alternative remedies should follow the same rules as other medicines



## Explorer (May 20, 2012)

There has been powerful lobbying from many over the past few decades to prevent natural remedies from following the same rules as other substances with possible negative medical side effects. 

Even here on SS.org, there have been occasional arguments against the scientific method and so on.

Genetic signature left behind by birthwort in cases of cancers and kidney failures

There has also been movement recently which makes it likely the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM) will have its $134 million budget reduced or removed altogether. The Center, part of NIH, is tasked with sorting through alternative and complementary medicines and finding success stories. Given that it's spent about a billion dollars and not found any such successes, it's likely that the money will find a better use. 

I find it interesting to see so many practitioners and manufacturers of these things making the argument that modern medicine is about making money, and that's why it wants to penalize treatments with no evidence behind it. Given how much they stand to lose, it's hard for me to believe that they're bringing up the money angle at all, as it seems like most people would be able to see where the profit motive lays.

----

Saddest part of that link? Referring to Taiwan as the "Land of Dialysis," given how many people have had kidney failures due to this remedy....


----------



## Waelstrum (May 21, 2012)

Wait, was the government funding alternative medicine? Why?

Also:


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 21, 2012)

I'm not going to pretend I have a good solution, or have even studied the subject at all really.

Just want to say that it has always pissed me off that some of these herbal and other supplements are obviously snake oil, but people still are gullible enough to not only try them, but also start believing that there is a noticable benifit.

I've talked to guys at various gyms over the years that were on at least a dozen different herbal and secondary(non-macronutrient based) supplements, and then still be one of the laziest most nonproductive unenergetic lifters at the gym.
You would think after a couple years they would figure out that the shit ain't doing much if anything.


----------



## flint757 (May 21, 2012)

I remember a couple years ago a huge stink was started because someones child had cancer and they wanted to do alternative treatment instead so denied the normal course of health care. The stink was because they were being charged with child neglect and it didn't matter what the child wanted since she was underage. I'd link, but i only remember vague details of the whole thing.

I feel like the state did the right thing in this case, but can also understand (to a small extent) why people would be upset. It'd suck to be on my deathbed and strangers were 100% in control and I had no say in it whatsoever. Nonetheless a lot off the alternatives are snake oil and IMO if success is ever seen it is more or less coincidental or maybe even false positive to begin with. When people try herbal treatments that is at the heart where medicine comes from so it is funny to me that alternative health centers pretend like they are the cutting edge. I'd guess too that when they work whatever herb you are taking is probably also in the med's you would have taken at the hospital. ( No clue of the accuracy in what I'm saying here just a wild guess )


----------



## TRENCHLORD (May 21, 2012)

flint757 said:


> I remember a couple years ago a huge stink was started because someones child had cancer and they wanted to do alternative treatment instead so denied the normal course of health care. The stink was because they were being charged with child neglect and it didn't matter what the child wanted since she was underage. I'd link, but i only remember vague details of the whole thing.
> 
> I feel like the state did the right thing in this case, but can also understand (to a small extent) why people would be upset. It'd suck to be on my deathbed and strangers were 100% in control and I had no say in it whatsoever. Nonetheless a lot off the alternatives are snake oil and IMO if success is ever seen it is more or less coincidental or maybe even false positive to begin with. When people try herbal treatments that is at the heart where medicine comes from so it is funny to me that alternative health centers pretend like they are the cutting edge. I'd guess too that when they work whatever herb you are taking is probably also in the med's you would have taken at the hospital. ( No clue of the accuracy in what I'm saying here just a wild guess )


 
I think this is the case you're refering to.
Mom Who Refused Chemo for Child is On the Run


----------



## flint757 (May 21, 2012)

^^^Could be, not sure. Looking through the comments it appears this has happened more than once so I'm not honestly sure if that is the specific case. Either way it is still a good reference point. 

Parents get pretty desperate when their kids are dying...


----------



## Explorer (May 21, 2012)

Although it's unrelated, it's not necessarily that parents are desperate, it's that they reject medicine. That's what happens in the majority of these cases, for reasons of religion/belief. 

It's unfortunate that the doctor who falsified his data regarding vaccines and autism isn't eligible for the death penalty. He made money from derailing public health deliberately. The Jenny McCarthy Body Count (deaths and illnesses caused by not getting vaccinated) can't be divided by the number of proven autism cases caused by vaccines, because one cannot divide by zero. 

----

Anyway, that's all for another topic. In this case, it's about any substance meant for human consumption in the US passing the same standards as other items meant for consumption. Manufacturers of such make it a free speech issue, instead of about being required to not kill consumers for profit.


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 21, 2012)

Since I started taking loads of tumeric pills and these weird chinese herbal pads I have rarely had to use my oxy script. 

Enough said.


----------



## Jakke (May 21, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> Also:




Tim is the man.


OT, this is good, until now manufacturers really could put whatever crap they want into their crap. 
Just out of a logical standpoint I have a hard time seeing why this have not come until now. See, would you eat a conventional drug where the manufacturer had just thrown in some chemicals together with the active ingredient? That is what you do if you go "natural", why? Because a herbal remedie contains all the other crap that the plant contained, thousands of compounds that you have no track on. Can you name all the compunds in St John's wort?


Now it remains to go after the new age quackers. Chrystal healers, homeopaths, shamans and remote viewers beware!

Really, when I hear about some amazing new alternative treatment, I don my skeptical face:


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 21, 2012)

Because you'd rather take oxy, lyrica or neurotonin than some tumeric?


----------



## Jakke (May 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Because you'd rather take oxy, lyrica or neurotonin than some tumeric?



Why, yes indeed I would


----------



## Stealthdjentstic (May 21, 2012)

Well, oxy is fun for a while until you realize its making you incapable of really doing anything.


----------



## Jakke (May 21, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Well, oxy is fun for a while until you realize its making you incapable of really doing anything.



Too bad it does not work for you, but medicine is not built on anecdotes. If you get better by spices, great for you! 
There are a lot of research going into turmeric, and there might be something to it. However when it shows to have an effect it effectively ends being alternative medicine, and starts being medicine instead. 
To be honest, I am more prone to trust a medical professional than someone who have inherited a book of herbs from his/her great grandmother, and is therefore effectively guessing what might help, compare it if you will with a surgeon cutting you with his eyes closed.


----------



## Waelstrum (May 21, 2012)

^ To quote Tim Minchin (again): ""By definition", I began, "alternative medicine," I continued, "either hasn't been proved to work, or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine.""


----------



## Jakke (May 21, 2012)

Waelstrum said:


> ^ To quote Tim Minchin (again): ""By definition", I began, "alternative medicine either hasn't been proved to work, or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proved to work? Medicine.""



A skeptical classic


----------



## USMarine75 (May 21, 2012)

There have been talks for years about _real_ government regulation of nutraceuticals. Although there is the ANA, they are really just there to buffer between the FDA and nutraceutical corporations. They don't engage in actual monitoring, regulating, and standardization. Hopefully this happens soon so more guys like Kevin Trudeau go to jail:

Kevin Trudeau - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com

Infomercial King Kevin Trudeau Fined $38 Million - ABC News

John Stossel Exposes Liar Kevin Trudeau - YouTube

Consumer complaints about Kevin Trudeau

My wife is a pharmacist and she always gets mad when I take my plethora of bodybuilding products. e.g. I know someone posted an article on here before about the amount of toxic heavy metals in popular protein shakes. 

tl;dr I may be a hippocrit but at least I'm strong enough to rip your arm of and beat you with it if you call me out


----------



## Explorer (May 24, 2012)

Something came across my desk today, forwarded to all employees by another employee. It had a petition to prevent requiring dietary supplement companies from listing ingredients. Given that we normally argue for transparency and for consumers having all the information to make their own choices, we had to talk to the employee... who, we found out, works with supplement manufacturers in fighting this stuff. I don't know if she does this on our time, but we'll find out. 

WTF...?


----------



## flint757 (May 24, 2012)

I'm always reminded of Clerks with shit like that...


----------



## Powermetalbass (May 25, 2012)

I figure no regulation and we just sum up alternative medicine as Natural selection!


----------



## ElRay (May 25, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Enough said.


Not at all. All that you've shown is that you saw a positive change at the same time. That's far, far, far, far, far removed from saying:
The seasonings (spices & herbs) you've taken will clear-up everybody's acne
The herbs & spices cleared-up your own acne (could be placebo effect, could be other changes you made at the same time)
The purpoted benefits of the herbs & spices out weigh the health risks in the general population
Now, show me statistically significant results in a sample-size of at least 20 people, and then I'll say you've got something that may warrant additional study.

Ray


----------



## USMarine75 (May 25, 2012)

Stealthdjentstic said:


> Since I started taking loads of tumeric pills and these weird chinese herbal pads I have rarely had to use my oxy script.
> 
> Enough said.


 
^ Now I know how you can afford such nice things... street value for an 80-mg tablet can cost between $65 and $80.


----------



## pawel (May 25, 2012)

I am not sure how the system in the US works, but from what I understand it's the following in Europe:

- If you want alternative remedies to follow the same rules as other medicines you need to aim for them to be registered as medicines. This might be counterintuitive if you don't believe in them being medicines. 

- If you don't have them registered ad medicnes, they can still be sold but not as medicines. So effectively they could still be on the market with less control (for instance as food).

I would imagine that there would be some interest in having these products registered as medicines by companies that market them as medicines. Not doing so could be interpreted as saying that they're not really medicines.


----------



## USMarine75 (May 25, 2012)

^ the problem is when they claim to cure diseases, affect health, etc...

If you check out the links I posted above you'll see an example of a US salesman/quack that claimed to have all sorts of natural cures. For example he claimed that buying his sea salt could cure cancer and diseases, because it made your cells alkaline and that viruses and cancer can't live in an alkaline envrionment. 

That's the kind of stuff that needs regulation.


----------



## Jakke (May 25, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> If you check out the links I posted above you'll see an example of a US salesman/quack that claimed to have all sorts of natural cures. *For example he claimed that buying his sea salt could cure cancer and diseases, because it made your cells alkaline and that viruses and cancer can't live in an alkaline envrionment*.


----------



## highlordmugfug (May 25, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> ^ the problem is when they claim to cure diseases, affect health, etc...
> 
> If you check out the links I posted above you'll see an example of a US salesman/quack that claimed to have all sorts of natural cures. For example he claimed that buying his sea salt could cure cancer and diseases, because it made your cells alkaline and that viruses and cancer can't live in an alkaline envrionment.
> 
> That's the kind of stuff that needs regulation.





Jakke said:


>


Cells you say? Cancer you say? Alkaline you say? Environment you say?

Sure, that sounds just sciencey enough to work, but not too sciencey as to make my dumbass skeptical of people who are smart than me and who've gone to school for years and are building on a few centuries of research and development.

Take my money, snake-oil man!


----------



## Xaios (May 25, 2012)

Explorer said:


> Something came across my desk today, forwarded to all employees by another employee. It had a petition to prevent requiring dietary supplement companies from listing ingredients. Given that we normally argue for transparency and for consumers having all the information to make their own choices, we had to talk to the employee... who, we found out, works with supplement manufacturers in fighting this stuff. I don't know if she does this on our time, but we'll find out.
> 
> WTF...?



Wow. Bag of snakes = opened! Good luck in dealing with that.

Tangentially, one of my favorite webcomics had a storyline last year involving "alternative medicine" that I thought was pretty funny.
















Continued here.


----------



## Jakke (May 25, 2012)

highlordmugfug said:


> Cells you say? Cancer you say? Alkaline you say? Environment you say?
> 
> Sure, that sounds just sciencey enough to work, but not too sciencey as to make my dumbass skeptical of people who are smart than me and who've gone to school for years and are building on a few centuries of research and development.
> 
> Take my money, snake-oil man!



Skeptical people are the worst. I usually start to spout words I have collected from the Wikipedia entries for "chemistry" and "physics", when people's eyes start to glaze I mention my price, evidence based medicine (there is actually some people that fall for the whole "you have to go to school to do this", have you ever heard something that stupid?) is so bothersome to do.


----------



## Explorer (May 25, 2012)

Here's a true story.

"Oh, this is far beyond even quantum physics!"

"And what is that called?"

"Tertiary physics."

"Tertiary physics refers to physics taught at the university level. Do you even know what the 'quantum' in "quantum physics' refers to? There's a fairly simple explanation, but I can understand even if you get technical."

Anything having to do with quanta, or a succinct reference to Planck time, or even being able to spell 'Planck' would have sufficed. Sadly, any such explanation was not forthcoming.

Which left me with a bigger question... who scheduled a meeting with this person? 

And yes, the same way I ask inconvenient questions here, I ask them at work, in an effort to avoid having the same questions come up again. *laugh*


----------



## Jakke (May 25, 2012)

^


----------



## pawel (May 25, 2012)

USMarine75 said:


> ^ the problem is when they claim to cure diseases, affect health, etc...
> 
> If you check out the links I posted above you'll see an example of a US salesman/quack that claimed to have all sorts of natural cures. For example he claimed that buying his sea salt could cure cancer and diseases, because it made your cells alkaline and that viruses and cancer can't live in an alkaline envrionment.
> 
> That's the kind of stuff that needs regulation.



In as far as I can tell if you have not registered your products and presented the appropriate dossier with evidence of the claim and the fact that the product is safe, you cannot trade in such products while making these claims and in the US the FDA can issue you with a letter like this:

Nature's Pearl Corporation 4/19/12

Of course there is the question whether this enforcement is effective and dissuasive enough, but, at least in theory, the regulatory framework seems to be there.


----------



## Explorer (May 25, 2012)

pawel said:


> In as far as I can tell if you have not registered your products and presented the appropriate dossier with evidence of the claim and the fact that the product is safe, you cannot trade in such products while making these claims and in the US the FDA can issue you with a letter like this:
> 
> Nature's Pearl Corporation 4/19/12
> 
> Of course there is the question whether this enforcement is effective and dissuasive enough, but, at least in theory, the regulatory framework seems to be there.



What that letter deals with is a company making medical claims for a product, which means the product is now considered to be a "new drug." That triggers the need to follow the process for a new drug.

----

Back to the original topic....

Retail food products and drugs sold in the United States are required to list their ingredients. Food/drink manufacturers are not required to list the exact proportions, although they do have to list the ingredients in order from largest ingredient by weight to the smallest. (Drug manufacturers only have to list ingredients in alphabetical order, regardless of proportions.) The one exception to listing specific ingredients is an aggregate like "flavor" or "spices" or "color"... although most companies will voluntarily list what those things mean. Preservatives also have to be listed. 

The regulatory framework which is missing currently is supplement companies being required to actually list the ingredients in their products. That means they can put whatever they want into it.

And that's what this legislation is aimed at, eliminating the ability to just move something to a "supplement" categorization to avoid listing ingredients.


----------



## groph (May 27, 2012)

TRENCHLORD said:


> I'm not going to pretend I have a good solution, or have even studied the subject at all really.
> 
> Just want to say that it has always pissed me off that some of these herbal and other supplements are obviously *snake oil*, but people still are gullible enough to not only try them, but also start believing that there is a noticable benifit.
> 
> ...



I know that's an expression, but a lot of this stuff is just water, at least homeopathic "medicine." It's literally the tiniest drop of the supposed active ingredient diluted into a certain volume of water, then the tiniest drop of that mixture diluted into another certain volume of water, wash, rinse, repeat, and then the whole bit is shaken around. Boom. Homeopathic remedy. I'd want to go into such a store, ask the clerk for the most "dangerous" medicine as far as "overdose" goes, buy it, and chug the whole thing right in front of them.

The whole idea of a drug's potency INCREASING the more dilute it becomes is completely the opposite of what we know about (I'm pretty sure) literally everything else that has been established in medicine. Yet people lap this shit up, and governments piss tax money away funding it. It's fucking water with an astronomically small amount of an extract of some goddamn root from somewhere with a name I can't pronounce.


----------



## Explorer (May 27, 2012)

Ah, homeopathy!

The one point that homeopathy people don't like is that, following the principles of homeopathy, all of the water in major population centers has the same vibrational properties of feces, due to the nature of water recycling. That means that there should be a huge outbreak of illness... which there isn't. 

Homeopathy has never passed a double-blind test, and I predict it never will.

----

Most "alternative medicines" benefit from the fact that one of three things happen when you get sick.

You get better.

You stay the same.

You get worse.

If someone ingests tumeric and gets better, then that person credits the tumeric instead of their immune system. Only by using control groups and double-blinding can one avoid the kinds of fallacies which lead to thinking it's the tumeric which made you healthier. 

Fortunately, most people only use "alternative medicines" when the stakes are low. There's a reason no "alternative medicine" has been marketed as preventing pregnancy. Given the long-term consequences and expenses, most people want a method which is 100%, and won't take a chance on something "alternative" if the outcome really matters.


----------



## Waelstrum (May 27, 2012)

EDIT: The attached text includes: "Telling someone who trusts you that you're giving them medicine, when you know you're not, because you want their money, isn't just lying -- it's an example you'd make up if you had to illustrate to a child why lying is wrong."


----------



## Explorer (May 27, 2012)

Here's the thing, though: Many people sincerely believe the lies they've been fed, and they are the ones who are being manipulated by the "alternative medicine'/natural supplement/"vaccines cause autism"/homeopathy groups.

I was at a "health fair" where various local doctors, health clubs, alternative medicine practioners and so on were pitching their wares. A "doctor of chiropractic" was telling a woman that her spine should be perfectly vertically straight, and that after a course of treatment lasting a few months she could have that. The chiropractor was talking specifically about her spinal arch, which is normal and to be desired.

He had some kind of fancy camera which would take pictures of the people around the booth, and then he'd highlight the curve of the spine. Then he'd tell horror stories to scare people into visiting him.

I took a picture of him talking to the people, and then gave them my card and asked them to contact me if they wanted free internet resources regarding normal spinal curvature, while showing them that the chiropractic staff, who were all claiming to have eliminated their spinal arches, did indeed still have them, AS THEY SHOULD HAVE. I also pointed out that the core of chiropractic, which has *never* been removed from the texts, is that all disease is caused by curvature of the spine. WTF?

Since he didn't like this, I invited the chiropractor to complain to the organizers, and sent one woman whom he had previously frightened to get one. Him, I'd say he was one of the liars.

----

Unlike this clown though, I think most parents are trying to do the best they can for their children. That's why they would be willing to not vaccinate their children, in spite of the obvious benefit: because some assclown named Andrew Wakefield published a fraudulent study about MMR vaccines told them it would harm their children by giving them autism. 

I really want that assclown Andrew Wakefield to suffer for his lies about vaccines and autism. In fact, the same way one gets hits for "Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory" since a few of us here kept referring to him that way here on SS.org, I will now start using the terms "assclown Andrew Wakefield vaccine autism lies for profit" whenever the subject comes up. *laugh*


----------



## Jakke (May 27, 2012)

Explorer said:


> Unlike this clown though, I think most parents are trying to do the best they can for their children. That's why they would be willing to not vaccinate their children, in spite of the obvious benefit



That is because far too few people use logical reasoning, and instead succumb to emotions and non-thought. If someone likeable as Jenny McCarthy tells people vaccines are dangerous, far too many people stop thinking, and instead just follow the gut feeling (which now has been influenced by McCarthy). Most of all they are suckers for the "big pharma" conspiracy, yet the interesting thing is that the great "fighter" against big pharma, Wakefield (vaccine autism lies for profit), was the one who accepted money to falsify results....




Explorer said:


> I really want that assclown Andrew Wakefield to suffer for his lies about vaccines and autism. In fact, the same way one gets hits for "Douchebag Maestro Alex Gregory" since a few of us here kept referring to him that way here on SS.org, *I will now start using the terms "assclown Andrew Wakefield vaccine autism lies for profit" whenever the subject comes up*. *laugh*



I am with you on that, and if you take up pledges on the subject, I pledge to do the same. 
Wakefield should know better as a MD, and in these instances I actually wish there was an afterlife, because then he would get what is coming to him. Same with that moronic woman Jenny McCarthy, with her I seriously consider to lobby for a law banning playboy models from opening their mouths, ever.


----------

