# Stuck in a rut as far as theory goes...



## Speedblooddeath (Oct 29, 2011)

I don't know if I just started in the wrong place or what, but I seem to be lost in the sauce as far as theory goes... There's so much info out there, its all overwhelming. How does theory translate into someone writing a song?


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## Dayn (Oct 29, 2011)

That's quite the open question... I'm not sure what to answer, but I'll answer how, for me, music theory helps me write music, if that's of any help.

Simply, it's like any other theory. Just as evolutionary theory helps one explain and model the evolution of viruses, music theory helps one explain and model music:


"Why does that sound so evil? Oh, the root jumps to the fifth and then plays the diminished fifth. That's how you get that sound."
"Why does this chord sound so unresolved? Yeah, it's an Aadd9 chord, but... ooh, I voiced the B as the highest note."
"This is in 7/8, but why does it sound so cohesive? Ooh, it has a rather strong pulse of 3+4... so that's why my 3+3+1 beat accents sounded so disjointed."
"Okay, my piece is in G minor... Oh, a high-pitched Gm9 arpeggio will sound awesome in the background! It has a strong minor feel in the root chord plus the slight tension of the 9th."
Just some examples of how I use music theory to analyse and describe things. Once I've done that, I can use it in my own music. I can hear something that I want in my head, and I can use my theory knowledge to understand how it will work together and what I can use to get that out of my head onto manuscript. Hopefully that's something close to what you were looking for?


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## niffnoff (Oct 29, 2011)

Music theory has to be brought into at some point or another. Most the time can be unintentional.

For example, chord structure, defines your key and also what scales you have available for you. Your best example is just learn basic theory, once you grasp it, you won't feel as overwhelmed. Don't be afraid of the terms is all I can say


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## Solodini (Oct 29, 2011)

Break each thing into its smallest components and use them to create building blocks you can use to write. Take the major scale and play root, 2nd, root then root, 3rd, root. Continue through the scale as such and listen out for those which you like. Then do the same but playing with the higher note of each set raised by an octave and see whether that changes your looking of it. Next do all of the above with the 2nd of the scale as the bottom of each set i.e. 2nd, 3rd, 2nd then 2nd, 4th, 2nd etc. go through the whole scale, then with an octave of separation. 

You get the idea. Doing this will help you appreciate all the possible melodic links within each mode of a scale. You'll start to notice similarities in the bits you like. I like intervals of a minor 2nd within the octave so I use that a lot but it could be between the major 3rd and perfect 4th of major or mixolydian, the #4 and 5th of Lydian, the 7th and octave of melodic/harmonic minor. Then the chord underneath it gives it a different pull. 

Have a look at the free sample chapters of my book from the link in my sig. It's all about using theory to aid creativity. If there's anything unclear which you want me to explain, or any explanation you think could be improved them let me know. PM me if you're interested in more of the book or you just want help our a discussion about theory. I love talking theory and I'm always here to help!


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## Tobi (Oct 29, 2011)

Solodini said:


> Break each thing into its smallest components and use them to create building blocks you can use to write. Take the major scale and *play root, 2nd, root then root, 3rd, root. Continue through the scale as such and listen out for those which you like. Then do the same but playing with the higher note of each set raised by an octave and see whether that changes your looking of it*. Next do all of the above with the 2nd of the scale as the bottom of each set i.e. 2nd, 3rd, 2nd then 2nd, 4th, 2nd etc. go through the whole scale, then with an octave of separation.
> 
> You get the idea. Doing this will help you appreciate all the possible melodic links within each mode of a scale. You'll start to notice similarities in the bits you like. I like intervals of a minor 2nd within the octave so I use that a lot but it could be between the major 3rd and perfect 4th of major or mixolydian, the #4 and 5th of Lydian, the 7th and octave of melodic/harmonic minor. *Then the chord underneath it gives it a different pull.*




awesome piece of advice here, couldnt agree more. I really need to get a printer from somewhere so I can print those samples of your book (I cant read long documents on the screen XD).
I feel we have a farely similar aproach to music theory, however I am not quite as good at it  

Anyway, to me Music theory is a more efficient tool to translate the music I hear in my head to the guitar, or even just a sheet, without having any instrument at hand, than simple trial and error. 
It has also changed the way I listen to music. 
Music is like the stars and the universe, you can look at it and go "oh thats pretty" or you can look at it like Carl Sagan, and try to understand it, which to me really lets you see the beauty behind it all 

As far as learning theory goes I believe that studying how to form the different modes of the diatonic scale and how they work over different chords should get you a fair way. That should also teach you how chords are structured and how to harmonize a scale or come up with a chord progression.


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## Solodini (Oct 29, 2011)

Thanks for the kind words, Tobi. I agree with your approach. It's a good way to appreciate why something is beautiful and replicate its beauty, like looking at the sea and appreciating all the different shades of blue in place, due to light on it and bring able to replicate that in a painting. 

In terms of rhythmic theory, count the main beats of rhythms you think are cool, then count 1+2+3+4+ to see where the quavers fall. Count the main beat again but with the quavers you've noticed counted where they should be. Then count 1e+a 2e+a 3e+a 4e+a to work out where there are semiquavers. Plug them into the main beat and necessary quavers you were counting before. If something fits somewhere between the quaver and the semiquaver then it's probably a triplet. Once you've worked it the rhythm of the tune you're counting to, write it down then write variations of it and see if they work as well. Come up with a bunch of variations, draw a star next to those which work well and compare them to see why they work better. Loop each beat of the each rhythm and see which rhythmic fragments you like. I often favour a triplet followed by a duplet or a groove which stats on the 2nd quaver if a bar as it creates a sense of motion more than starting on the first beat does. Creative use of rests. Brap!


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## SirMyghin (Oct 29, 2011)

One thing I like to do is work a gradually with theory, the prevent getting overwhelmed. Every time I sit down and write something I have a specific piece of harmony in mind I would like to employ successfully and consciously (opposed to some of them I may have employed unconsciously before I knew what they were). This gives me a really good feel for that concept and how it works in my mind. 

I'm not going to sit down and write a piece with 10 + different harmonic ideas I am unfamiliar with. That would likely stumble some.


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## StratoJazz (Oct 29, 2011)

Everyone's advice here is really good. 

Essentially, Music Theory is a list of conventions that help you to understand and essentially gives you strategies on how to write music. Most classical theory is there to teach you how to voice lead chords like J.S. Bach did. It's not a set of strict rules that you must follow all the time, but incredibly useful.

After all, parallel fifths are use all the time in rock music with power chords.

As far as where to start in your quest for more theory, Solodini's advice is good. You'll learn about the C major scale and it's respective intervals. C to D is a Major 2nd, C to E is a Major third, C to F is a Perfect 4th, C to G is a Perfect fifth(also a power chord), C to A is a Major 6th, C to B is a Major 7th. You could reverse this and get all of the minor intervals. C to B is a minor second, C to A is a minor third, C to G is a perfect 4th, C to F is a Perfect 5th, C to E is a minor 6th and C to D is a minor 7th.

For right now, try to get a good grasp on your intervals and your concept of Key centers. Then move on to Triads(chords), 7th chords, essentially, learn all about tertian harmony. It's just the study of harmony in 3rds. Quartal is 4ths, Quintal is 5ths.

Hope this helped you.


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## Explorer (Oct 29, 2011)

@ the OP - You've been playing for over 10 years, according to another of your posts, so what you'll be working on now is learning the "rules" behind why it all works. 

I find that it's good to work through books for which I'm fairly certain I know the material anyway, so that if I missed something earlier, or didn't make a connection, I now have the knowledge to put it into a different context.

Starting from the beginning on theory might sound like a waste of time, but it's not about the exercises to learn where to put your fingers, but why you're putting your fingers there. It's like learning to diagram sentences: it's a pain, and you already talk, but if you learn how the parts of speech work, and how the words build phrases, sentences, paragraphs and complete written compositions, you'll be better at communicating.

And the same thing with music.

Oh yeah, there's definitely a lot of information out there. But you have time, and don't have to learn it all overnight. 

Good luck!


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## SirMyghin (Oct 29, 2011)

Explorer said:


> @ the OP - You've been playing for over 10 years, according to another of your posts, so what you'll be working on now is learning the "rules" behind why it all works.
> 
> I find that it's good to work through books for which I'm fairly certain I know the material anyway, so that if I missed something earlier, or didn't make a connection, I now have the knowledge to put it into a different context.
> 
> ...



At 10 years of playing Explorer is right, you probably 'know' a lot of this stuff, you are learning the vocabulary. My theory background is actually similar, I played for 10 years with minimal, due to big band experience, but otherwise left it. Then I started learning theory via lessons (as I respond well to being taught things), and do exactly what I mentioned above. Your ears likely know a lot of this, but don't skip any steps, teach your ears what they are hearing formally and you will be golden.


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## Speedblooddeath (Oct 30, 2011)

Thanks alot for the info guys. When I first started playing, all I wanted to do was learn some songs and get good. Needless to say, I'm able to write riffs that I'm absolutely overjoyed with, but I can never bridge them together to get the beginning, the middle and the end. I tried to learn theory throughout the years but it was like one big puzzle and I had no idea where any of the pieces were going or even what the big picture was.


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## Guitarchitect (Oct 30, 2011)

There's a lot of good advice here. I have a post that deals with this actually.

"One of the reoccurring areas of concern that comes up in lessons is the issue of music theory. This is both in terms of people who dont want to be taught any kind of theory, (as in, No  dont show me that thatll mess up my playing!) to people who have been exposed to terms that they have questions about. Usually both scenarios involve a lot of trepidation and discomfort (much of which is needlessly inflicted).

I would guess that the only people who have ever leapt for joy at the sight of a musical note on paper without hearing it are composers. For most people, music is an expression solely existing in an aural form (i.e. its something we hear).

Theory is secondary to sound.

The history of music originates in organized sound. Theory and jargon were developed over time as a way to replicate those organized sounds. A term like C major is just musical jargon. When C Major is said, it tells the informed person what kind of sound is going to be produced. This jargon then, is nothing more than a way for musicians to express ideas to each other without written music in a more efficient manner.

Its much less important to be able to look at something and say, thats an altered dominant chord than it is to hear an altered dominant chord in your head and be able to realize it on the guitar ( or to hear someone else playing it and know what to play against it)."

The full post is here:

A brief thought about music theory « Guitarchitecture.org

But just realize that if you apply any concept that you're trying to learn to your music (writing, soloing, etc) it will have much more meaning for you.

As an analogy - there are a lot more words than there are music theory terms - and adult native english speakers don't live in fear of what words they don't know. Learn at your own pace as you need to and you'll be fine.

Good luck!


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 30, 2011)

Just inform yourself. Music's permutations are infinite, so you can never learn all there is to know about it. Thus, there is no definitive starting point nor an ending point. Obviously, this gives you more choices than you have time to fulfill, so it helps to narrow it down. You want to start with basics, as with anything.

A couple of the suggestions here have emphasized the aural approach. Rightfully so, music exists in sound and not in any other sensory plane (unless you're afflicted with synaesthesia, but music is still a sonic phenomenon). Honestly, though, you want to be able to write things down. As with any language, you reinforce ideas whenever you read or write something. Sound has the unique property of being ephemeral. As soon as you play a note, it begins to decay. Transcription gives you the ability to analyze what's going on, long after that note has died, so that you can improve your ear when there is no sound happening. In short, learn to notate. Not tab, either - that gives you a mechanical record, but you'll be recording actual concepts with standard notation.

As far as where to begin, learn how to spell a major scale off of every note and write the key signature associated with it. The circle of fifths is your friend here. Then, learn how to do the natural minor scales the same way. From there, you can spell the harmonic minor scales. After that, you should learn to harmonize the major and minor scales in triads, and relate chords withing a key to Roman numerals. This will give you a strong basic level of theory that you can take anywhere and easily expand upon. And play around with this stuff while you're learning it. As Guitarchitect pointed out, notes on a page are useless unless you hear them (Although I would disagree with the "composers" comment; anyone can look at a bunch of dots on a page and hear what's going on if they have significant exposure to notated music, and it probably happens more with performers than with composers.), so play this stuff, get the sound, relate your ear to your eye and everything with your brain.

A useful resource to get you going: Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net


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## SirMyghin (Oct 30, 2011)

SchecterWhore said:


> In short, learn to notate. Not tab, either - that gives you a mechanical record, but you'll be recording actual concepts with standard notation.



Bloody musically edumacated elisits 

I do not agree with this entirely. I do all my notation in tablature; however, I am quite conscious of every note I put into said tablature (not fret number, note). 

In short I agree with the sentiment of using notation (being aware of notes/concepts/what you are actually saying), but not necessarily using it. Guitar, in my objectively correct opinion is a pain in the ass to read notation wise (due to excessive leger lines), and is only improved slightly if say, notated 1 octave up (8va) on a grand staff.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Oct 31, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Bloody musically edumacated elisits



Through and through. 



> I do not agree with this entirely. I do all my notation in tablature; however, I am quite conscious of every note I put into said tablature (not fret number, note).
> 
> In short I agree with the sentiment of using notation (being aware of notes/concepts/what you are actually saying), but not necessarily using it. Guitar, in my objectively correct opinion is a pain in the ass to read notation wise (due to excessive leger lines), and is only improved slightly if say, notated 1 octave up (8va) on a grand staff.


Yeah, that's what I'm getting at. Know what you're doing and make sure you can back it up. Working on a staff is really the most straightforward and universal way to notate and learn tonal music. As for guitar notation, I mostly use a grand staff (or change clefs when needed) and notate at concert pitch. I can do ledger lines pretty easily by being able to see what an interval looks like rather than what note is on what line or space, but 8va/8vb is a great tool.

Addendum: Use notation methods as a means of expression, not as a crutch.


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## viesczy (Nov 2, 2011)

Having your theory down is like being an English professor, or prof in your native language if not English. It doesn't mean you're any more eloquent, or that you're gonig to write the greatest novel ever, just means you've studied the language to use as a tool only. 

Your ear is the first guide to music in a form of expression, see what your ear is naturally inclined to pick out as positive sounding and expand on that. Once your ear has developed "your" sound, then look into the theory of your sound and take that theory and expand the growing theory on your growing "ear/voice". 

Being able to rattle of trillion and 1 different things about theory is GREAT, being able to apply that in a musical setting this please to your's and the listeners' ears, that is the most important thing. 

I hear music as colors, hear progression as shapes to which I can put melodic shapes. For like 10 years I played JS Bach pieces on my dad's Hammond B3, so my ear is heavily into harmonic minor keys & progessions. That is my ear, your ear can be anything, feel free to explore every tone out there!

Derek


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## SirMyghin (Nov 2, 2011)

viesczy said:


> I hear music as colors, hear progression as shapes to which I can put melodic shapes. For like 10 years I played JS Bach pieces on my dad's Hammond B3, so my ear is heavily into harmonic minor keys & progessions. That is my ear, your ear can be anything, feel free to explore every tone out there!



Fucking synesthetes...  B3's are so amazing.


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