# Best Custom Shop?



## RLG167 (Aug 28, 2016)

Hi all, I've been saving up for a while now and I'm getting ready to order my first full-on custom. I'm trying to decide who to go with, though. It'll depend on a few factors: 1-turnaround time (I'm good with 6-7 months, but I can't justify spending that much on something that'll take over a year). 2-what custom features I can get (if they'll let me switch control layouts, if they can carve contours, what custom colors, etc.). 3-price! I can stand $1-2.5k, maybe 3k, but much more I couldn't do. So the custom shops I'm looking at are Carvin, Jackson and ESP. (Although I'm not sure if esp will fit in my price range) I play Death Metal, so I would like to go with one of those companies as opposed to Ibanez or PRS. I want a functional guitar, not one I'm going to worry about taking out of the house. I'd appreciate any input.
Thanks, RG


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## Jaek-Chi (Aug 28, 2016)

I'd personally go a full custom. Like a custom luthier, not a custom shop guitar. Of what you've listed, i'd avoid Carvin personally. I always gelled well with both Jackon and ESP, but for me i feel like the 'feel' (not the quality of the isstrument) of the ESP's stop once you reach about the '1000' series LTD's... Again, please note i said the feel of playing it, not the build quality. I'd probably go for a Custom Shop Jackson if you were set on a production brand 'custom shop'. Thought i can't comment on either of their turn around times, though i would believe it would be longer than you want to wait.

Alternatively there are plenty of custom luthiers around the world doing great work.


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## cardinal (Aug 28, 2016)

You won't be able to get a new ordered Jackson or ESP for $3k. Not sure what you mean by "full custom." Carvin lets you pick a lot of options and such. But if you want something built from the ground up with odd specs like custom body shapes, inlay, etc., it will be vary hard to find under $3k from anyone (and if someone says they can do it, I'd be very leery and check references and would try to avoid paying much of anything upfront).


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 28, 2016)

Aren't Jackson and ESP well outside of the 1-3k range? Plus you'd be waiting a .... of a long time. I know Feraledge (I think that's their name) here on this forum ordered a guitar through ESP custom shop and that .... was in production for a couple years I think. Turned out wonderful, but it took forever and wasn't cheap.

Kiesel is probably the only one mentioned that ticks all the boxes. Don't listen to what Jaek-Chi said about going "full custom through a luthier." On top of taking a ton of time, they'll be expensive and with non-established luthiers, you run the risk of pissing away thousands and never actually receiving anything or completely trashed guitars. It seems like every day there's a new luthier added to the "took my money and disappeared with it" list.

Kiesel/Carvin are relatively cheap, have a decent amount of features, have a pretty quick turn around time, and if you don't get any option 50's, one hell of a return policy. Some people give them ...., but for ~2-3k you can get some nice stuff.


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## AkiraSpectrum (Aug 28, 2016)

As others have mentioned, you are not getting a 'custom shop' guitar from any of those companies (except for Carvin) for under $3K, not even close. Especially when you are talking about customized bodies and layouts.


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## HeHasTheJazzHands (Aug 28, 2016)

A lot of the big names (Jackson, ESP, Schecter) charge REALLY big bucks for their custom. I'd imagine around 4k - 5k for a simple-specced one at that. If you wanna go cheap, it's either Kiesel or bust.


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## exo (Aug 28, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Hi all, I've been saving up for a while now and I'm getting ready to order my first full-on custom. I'm trying to decide who to go with, though. It'll depend on a few factors: 1-turnaround time (I'm good with 6-7 months, but I can't justify spending that much on something that'll take over a year). 2-what custom features I can get (if they'll let me switch control layouts, if they can carve contours, what custom colors, etc.). 3-price! I can stand $1-2.5k, maybe 3k, but much more I couldn't do. So the custom shops I'm looking at are Carvin, Jackson and ESP. (Although I'm not sure if esp will fit in my price range) I play Death Metal, so I would like to go with one of those companies as opposed to Ibanez or PRS. I want a functional guitar, not one I'm going to worry about taking out of the house. I'd appreciate any input.
> Thanks, RG



Frankly, you haven't given yourself enough budget to go full custom shop, with customized body shapes or contours.

There is nobody out there that fits all your categories. You are not going to get a custom shop ESP or Jackson in your price range, and their turnaround times both tend to be in excess of a year from what I've seen.

At your price range and turnaround time requirements, the only choice out there is Carvin/Keisel, which wil get you a decent quality semi-customized guitar, but it'll be a fancied up version of one of their stock shapes.


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## feraledge (Aug 28, 2016)

"Best custom shop" is entirely subjective and within your budget you're not even getting close to "full custom". With your budget and time frame, go with Kiesel. Maybe Oakland Axe Factory if they have something like what you're looking for. But if you find many full on customs in the price-range and time frame they're giving you, probably worth avoiding unless they're absolutely proven. 
I would look into STK. In the price and time range, not sure what "full custom" options might cost you, but they seem very legit. 
With customs, you get what you pay for and you MUST do your research. A "full custom" ESP or Jackson will cost you $4-7K, easily. And your wait time is probably between 1-2 years. Assume anything you're told as the earliest possible date of completion, not including transit and even some pre-production wait times. 
This is expensive and timely, but if you want a "full custom" from a company you really respect, you'll know what you're getting into and once you get it the wait is over and done with.


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## zeropoint (Aug 28, 2016)

It is my opinion that a person should target what they want and then figure out the price tag and either save accordingly or change course, _especially_ when we're talking about custom gear, since some projects can turn into money pits unexpectedly (read: cases where the build process isn't going well, things are looking to be .... quality or have been misrepresented from the get go and the builder doesn't want to refund your deposit).

I feel like saving up a good chunk of money like you have is something where you could do well to look for something killer in production models or used customs. It may not have the same "exactly what I wanted" appeal as a custom shop guitar, but you kind of know what you're getting into and the bang for the buck factor is way more present. Your transaction cost and wait times are pretty much known. Even if you find a builder who will do custom carving / contouring at that price, I'd just hate to see a guy put in a fairly large deposit and have the build go south with nothing (or worse - a bad guitar  )to show for it - that's an eventuality you kind of have to be ready for with smaller builders (as others have said) and the larger companies tend to set the bar very high in terms of cost, for custom jobs.

Again, that's just my opinion. Kiesel / Carvin seems to put out some pretty good stuff as far as semi-custom guitars go, but the limited number I've come across on my own haven't "spoken" to me when I've played them. Actually playing something that they put out changed my mind 100% about whether they were for me. That is HIGHLY subjective, though, some people love em.


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## Hollowway (Aug 29, 2016)

_1-turnaround time (I'm good with 6-7 months, but I can't justify spending that much on something that'll take over a year). _
Very few companies are going to be able to make that time frame. So that might be the first place you look.

_if they'll let me switch control layouts_
Pretty much any custom guitar will allow that.

_if they can carve contours_
Do you have an existing body shape in mind? Like, do you want a superstrat, or something already in existence, or are you wanting to design something from the ground up?


_what custom colors, etc._)
Most will allow you to choose literally anything you want.

_I can stand $1-2.5k, maybe 3k, but much more I couldn't do._
You haven't given us enough of a "wants" list to know what you're after.

_I want a functional guitar, not one I'm going to worry about taking out of the house. _
Then you should get a production guitar.

IMO, you should not be getting a custom at this time. I don't see either enough research being done on your side (asking if control layouts and colors are options, and asking of custom contours can be carved in the same sentence suggests that). And I don't say this to be condescending - getting a custom guitar will be one of the most frustrating, painful experiences you'll ever want to not repeat. TRUST me on this. 

Now, if you said the following, I think you'd be ready for a full custom:

"I need a 28-27" scale 7 string bolt on with a Warrior style body shape. I'd like the fan to have the 'parallel fret' at the bridge so I can have an OFR installed. I want a humbucker in the bridge, but fanned so that the treble side is closer to the neck (to mellow out the scale length on the high strings) and a single coil in the neck. I'd like 27 frets. I'd prefer a fancy burled wood with a stain and gloss finish."

That tells me you know exactly what you want, and it cannot be found in any production instrument. THEN you need a custom. And a lot of time. And a lot of money.


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## feraledge (Aug 29, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> Reigning knowledge


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## cip 123 (Aug 29, 2016)

Esp and Jackson will take a long time. Also Jackson seem to have had a few problems not putting the right amount of frets in, in recent years 

If you pick a custom Lutheir they will in most cases build you anything (including a Jackson/esp style guitar) as they are well custom.

I personally recommend Oakland Axe Factory. Super nice dude, replies quick and I've heard only good things here. Look up his "northstar" design or email him. It's a superstrat type with a radius top.

Who knows he may even do a pointy headstock for you.


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## The 1 (Aug 29, 2016)

At this point, your best and possibly only real choice would be Carvin/Kiesel.

I'd suggest going to kiesel website and playing around with the custom guitar builders, and see if you come up with something you like . They'll mostly be within 1.5-2.5k price range.

Any of the big name brands will have price ranges over 4k and wait times over 1 year.


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## Possessed (Aug 29, 2016)

You can definitely get a custom select Jackson for less than 3k for 9 months, but it is not full custom. Archtop is not possible.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Aug 29, 2016)

I'm inclined to agree with most of what Hollowway said.

To be real, if you need to ask this question, a custom isn't something you need.
Doubly so if you think you want a guitar you're going to be comfortable playing shows with.


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## cardinal (Aug 29, 2016)

Possessed said:


> You can definitely get a custom select Jackson for less than 3k for 9 months, but it is not full custom. Archtop is not possible.



Not a 7 string for $3k or in 9 months. Probably more like $5k and 24 months. That's what I was just quoted, and just getting the quote took maybe two months.


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## narad (Aug 29, 2016)

cardinal said:


> Not a 7 string for $3k or in 9 months. Probably more like $5k and 24 months. That's what I was just quoted, and just getting the quote took maybe two months.



Just to clarify, are you talking about custom _select_?


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

Thanks for everyone's input. I just want to set a few things straight from my original post. First, I'm an 18 year old musician, so I cant justify spending more than 2-3k, as much as I want to. But I wanted to see what custom shops that were out there because every production model guitar I've ever gotten, while they are nice, are never exactly what I like. And I'm a firm believer that while you can play most things, creativity doesn't flourish unless you play what you love. I can't just buy a piece of gear, I really need to connect with it. Hence the custom. I've had one, maybe two production guitars that I could actually play how I wanted. I know it sounds crazy, but it works for me. Second, it was getting late when I wrote that post so I left a few details out and tried to keep it short. The things I wrote were basic framework, now I can really get into specs.
I really like odd body shapes that put my arm out at an angle, (I find it helps with my rhythm work, which I mostly do) so if I can find someone that can do an Explorer or V type that's what I'm looking for, of if they can work with me on a shape, that'd be great too. Specs below:
-Mahogany body 
-Mahogany/Ebony neck-through
-1/4" or 1/2" quilt maple cap
-25.5" scale length
-Ebony fretboard, 12-16" radius
-Thick Asymmetrical neck profile (similar to a LP Custom) WITH a Volute
-Neck angle (think of something with a Tom bridge compared to something with a hipshot or floyd)
-Reverse inline headstock for better tension on the low strings
-24 XJ Stainless frets, with 15-24 scalloped
-Floyd Rose (top mounted to fit the neck angle, similar to the Scott Ian Soloist)
-EMG 81-7 (b), 66-7 (n) pickups
-Sperzel Locking tuners
I'm sure I'm forgetting something, I have all my ideal specs written down somewhere. And I assumed with those specs I want it would be hard to find something in my price range, but that's why I came here, for suggestions  But that's pretty much what I'm looking for. And I know Carvin only uses their pickups, if I got a Carvin I'd put the EMG's in myself, or see if I like their pickups. And I figured ESP and Jackson would be too much, I has hoping they had a sort of semi-custom line (which I've actually heard Jackson does with 6-9 months turnaround). Has anybody tried Acacia? I first saw something by TTK where he showed the process of them making his, and I've heard fairly mixed reviews. Or what about Halo? I read that their old stuff is crap, but they're trying to turn it around. 
*edit*
I also just want to say regarding price, I'm 18, barely an adult and just able to work, which I can't even do because I have a disability. So for people that work I'm sure it's fairly simple to just wait a little longer for the next paycheck or two, but for me, I've literally been saving for 5 years. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm just saying sometimes the price you can work with is really all you have to work with. I don't mean to come off mean, just saying everyone's situation is different. I don't need 10 people telling me an ESP is 5k+, one will do. I'm really looking for suggestions on what I can afford, esp and jackson were simply suggestions.
Thanks, RG


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## dhgrind (Aug 29, 2016)

Aristides if you consider the saber-style body "carved"

control layouts, colors, pickups, Floyd or hipshot. as I understand their turn around seems to be about 4-6 months or so. Mine is almost finished ordered late march, coming with black winters in the bridge and neck. They've also been praised for some of the best fret-work around. Also being a woodless instrument it handles the stresses of touring very well. 

they'll do any color you want from what I understand, they've even mixed new colors and styles for people that ask. they'll route your switches how you want within how it can be done structurally. 

I've yet to see anyone have any complaints about their guitars aside from one person having a small paint defect on the neck.


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

dhgrind said:


> Aristides if you consider the saber-style body "carved"
> 
> control layouts, colors, pickups, Floyd or hipshot. as I understand their turn around seems to be about 4-6 months or so. Mine is almost finished ordered late march, coming with black winters in the bridge and neck. They've also been praised for some of the best fret-work around. Also being a woodless instrument it handles the stresses of touring very well.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I'll check it out


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## exo (Aug 29, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I also just want to say regarding price, I'm 18, barely an adult and just able to work, which I can't even do because I have a disability. So for people that work I'm sure it's fairly simple to just wait a little longer for the next paycheck or two, but for me, I've literally been saving for 5 years. I'm not trying to be a dick or anything, I'm just saying sometimes the price you can work with is really all you have to work with. I don't mean to come off mean, just saying everyone's situation is different. I don't need 10 people telling me an ESP is 5k+, one will do. I'm really looking for suggestions on what I can afford, esp and jackson were simply suggestions.
> Thanks, RG



I think that what most of us were getting at here is that while it may be all you have to work with, it's not going to get you into "full custom" territory with known, reputable shops. It may be all you have to work with, but by the same token, the prices are what they are as well. We're basically telling you that even though 2.5k is a lot of money, and you've been saving forever.......you need to temper your expectations, because non "production" guitars are freaking expensive. RIDICULOUSLY SO for many folks. Having a finite budget doesn't make prices magically drop into your budget range. 

I don't know of anyone that will do your exact spec set for your price. Carvin has the most options to work with, but the closest they come to an Explorer or V is their X and V, which are reverse bodied, and I don't know if they'd do the angles neckthru with a top mounted Floyd. 

Aristedes does one style, and it is a molded thing where what you see is what you get. They also are priced at the EXTREME upper end o your price range.

Halo has several "extreme" body shapes......BUT.......just like Carvin, or ordering a "custom" Agile, they've in essence got "stock" guitar models they build that you then choose from options on a list to complete, and depend on on what you choose, prices can add up QUICK.

Frankly, if you're looking for a 25.5" explorer style 7, Agile has their Ghost model, and last I saw it was available on their semi custom builder. You can get it neck thru, not sure if your exact wood combo is available, also highly doubtful that you can get your specified neck angle/neckthru construction/top mounted Floyd combo done, and it's not going to have that super spiffy high end craftsman workmanship to it......but I'll throw it out there as a potential compromise option.

Another outside possibility as a compromise might be looking into a Schecter E-7. Yeah, I know, not customize able to your specs, I'm just spitballing at this point because your gonna have to make compromises to get into your budget, as much as that might suck for you. I HOPE I'm not coming off entirely negative, or like I'm trying to shoot you down. I just don't think what you're looking for actually exists. If I had the "magic guitar builder" solution for you, I'd tell you in a heartbeat.


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## Possessed (Aug 29, 2016)

Those are the no-go for jackson custom select
Mahogany/Ebony neck-through
1/4" or 1/2" quilt maple cap
7 strings
Explorer body 

Otherwise you can order a warrior or Kelly fulfilling rest of your spec at about 3k.


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

exo said:


> I think that what most of us were getting at here is that while it may be all you have to work with, it's not going to get you into "full custom" territory with known, reputable shops. It may be all you have to work with, but by the same token, the prices are what they are as well. We're basically telling you that even though 2.5k is a lot of money, and you've been saving forever.......you need to temper your expectations, because non "production" guitars are freaking expensive. RIDICULOUSLY SO for many folks. Having a finite budget doesn't make prices magically drop into your budget range.
> 
> I don't know of anyone that will do your exact spec set for your price. Carvin has the most options to work with, but the closest they come to an Explorer or V is their X and V, which are reverse bodied, and I don't know if they'd do the angles neckthru with a top mounted Floyd.
> 
> ...



Thanks, I appreciate the input. I'd heard Halo were Chinese made crap and most weren't constructed right (bridge in wrong place, wrong scale, etc), but I guess the new owner is trying to make them better. And I've had a couple production Agile and they're great, so I may look into one of their custom models. But above all, I'm concerned about fretwork. I know Carvin usually has incredible quality fretwork, and I was looking on their "Ready to ship Custom Shop" models page, I could get a couple of those with my budget and it's a 4 day wait for an inspection. I may just suck it up and get a Strat


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## A-Branger (Aug 29, 2016)

what about instead to go full custom. get a production guitar that comes pretty close to your specs, and then send it to customize?

well..... I was going to say, go and pick a standar V or explorer (because the neck angle would be the only thing you wont be able to change), and send it to be routed for a floyd... but, those shapes varely come in 7, and usually at short scale. 

but if you search any 7 string with a tom bride and you are open to different shapes?, then you can send the guitar to get the floyd to be routed and get the last frets scalloped, change color, ect.




also


> I play Death Metal, so I would like to go with one of those companies as opposed to Ibanez or PRS.



the music style you play have nothing to do with the guitar brand. Ive seen pretty much any brand being played in any style. As long as you have humbuckers, and the guitar is on the scale lenght that you preffer for your tunning, then who cares what shape/color/brand is your guitar.



> I want a functional guitar, not one I'm going to worry about taking out of the house.



then the last thing that you want is to go custom. Get a workhorse guitar. Get an LTD1000 series with a floyd or something like that. Good enough to be a great guitar, and cheap enough to get it and not worry too much about it.

IF you are really worried about taking the guitar out of the house, then why are you even thinking to go into a custom shop and get one of a kind 3k$ guitar for?????? 

Also... guitars are meant to be played, whats the point to get the guitar of your dreams if then you are not going to go out and play with it.... ... just be more mindful of it, keep an eye, and dont leave it on a corner while you are off for a drinks at the doggy bar. Be responsible with it, but go out and use it


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## cardinal (Aug 29, 2016)

narad said:


> Just to clarify, are you talking about custom _select_?



They won't do a custom select 7 string for less than $3k unless the dealer I've talked to is really out of the loop.

But I hope I'm wrong!!! Can I really order an RR 7-string for $3k or less?


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> what about instead to go full custom. get a production guitar that comes pretty close to your specs, and then send it to customize?
> 
> well..... I was going to say, go and pick a standar V or explorer (because the neck angle would be the only thing you wont be able to change), and send it to be routed for a floyd... but, those shapes varely come in 7, and usually at short scale.
> 
> ...



I have an LTD1000, and it's one of my favorite guitars. Plays nice, I have played others and feel like mine is one of those rare instances where they got all the frets perfect. I have yet to play another 1000 that plays as well as mine. About the Ibanez and PRS, it's more of how I personally see guitars. I see Ibanez and PRS as more prog guitars. I have a friend who has both an Ibanez Prestige 7 MIJ and a USA Custom 22, and I just can't play Death Metal on them, it's the weirdest thing. And what I meant by being afraid to take it out of the house is I don't want to spend an insane amount of money on something with a rare figured top and super high gloss finish, I'd rather keep it simple. Quilt top, satin finish. I didn't literally mean I'd be afraid to take it out of the house, I meant more I don't want something super exotic.


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## oracles (Aug 29, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> First, I'm an 18 year old musician, so I cant justify spending more than 2-3k, as much as I want to. I can't just buy a piece of gear, I really need to connect with it. Hence the custom.



Then don't. Good custom instruments cost money, just like anything else worth owning costs money. Approaching a custom build should be approached with all the same caution as buying a house or car. Be prepared to part with the cash, or be prepared to be disappointed. Pick one. 



RLG167 said:


> if I can find someone that can do an Explorer or V type that's what I'm looking for, of if they can work with me on a shape, that'd be great too.



V's and Explorer's cost more because 1) they're less common and 2) they require more timber than a strat/tele/LP build. Drawing a custom shape means R&D, CAD work, and pushes it out of your price range entirely. 




RLG167 said:


> Mahogany/Ebony neck-through
> -1/4" or 1/2" quilt maple cap, -Thick Asymmetrical neck profile (similar to a LP Custom) WITH a Volute



These options alone will jack your price up to and most likely above your max budget from any reputable builder, especially using ebony in the neck, and definitely creating a custom profile. 




RLG167 said:


> Has anybody tried Acacia? I first saw something by TTK where he showed the process of them making his, and I've heard fairly mixed reviews. Or what about Halo? I read that their old stuff is crap, but they're trying to turn it around.



Stay far, far, FAR away. Neither of these brands is going to produce anything you want to own.




RLG167 said:


> I'm 18, barely an adult and just able to work, which I can't even do because I have a disability. So for people that work I'm sure it's fairly simple to just wait a little longer for the next paycheck or two, but for me, I've literally been saving for 5 years.



It's unfortunate, and I do extend my sincerest condolences to you in this regard, but don't get blinded by the "custom" headlights. Custom =/= good, your budget puts you in the lower end of most, if not all reputable custom shops. I know it's not what you want to hear, but don't spend all your cash on a custom and risk receiving a POS because your budget won't extend towards a more reputable shop. Its not worth the risk, and there's FAR too many threads here and on many other forums about "builder x stole my money and I never received my build" or "builder y sent me the biggest piece of sh1t custom build possible". 

My advice is to stick to a production instrument. It's safer, and in the long run you'll be better off unless you're prepared to save an extra $2k-$3k. You'll have to comprise a little on spec, but you'll be much better off doing that than receiving a flawed instrument that you'll end up resenting and likely be stuck with because it won't sell.


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## oracles (Aug 29, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> turnaround time (I'm good with 6-7 months, but I can't justify spending that much on something that'll take over a year)



If you're not willing to wait over a year, then custom instruments are simply not for you. Quality builds are not cheap, and they take time. Good builds are not cheap, and cheap builds are not good.

In no way am I trying to come off as insensitive in my posts, but I AM tired of seeing people get taken advantage of by shady builders. Seeing thread after thread after thread about someone receiving a flawed build or no build gets really sad and really old, really quick. You've probably heard a lot of things you didn't want to in this thread, but the people giving you advice have seen all the same shady builder threads I have, some of them have been victim to those builders. No one here wants to see you become another name on that list.


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

Thanks Oracles. Lots of good advice there I'll take into consideration. And I wouldn't go with a separate builder, I'd rather go with a well-known company, but I came here for suggestions. That's why I'm looking into Carvin, they seem to be my best bet right now. Quick turnaround time, great fretwork (I've played four Carvins, and loved the feel of all of them), and within my budget. Do they still put Carvin on the headstock, or do they all say Kiesel now? Oh, and with the thing I wrote about my situation, I don't want sympathy, just simply stating that everyone's situation is different, so it's not fair to say just to wait and save more, because some people really can't. That's all. Again, I don't want sympathy, thank you, though


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

Oracles, ps, love your signature XD. And is your avatar Corpsegrinder?!


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## laxu (Aug 29, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> -Mahogany/Ebony neck-through
> -Sperzel Locking tuners



First off if you mean a mahogany neck with ebony strips or something for reinforcement, I don't think I have ever seen that combo. Would probably be expensive.

You also don't really want Sperzel locking tuners. Aside from being just for easier string changes on a guitar with a Floyd, Sperzel has pretty poor gear ratios so they are not as smooth and accurate when tuning as many other models. The thumb wheels at the back are not particularly comfortable to use either.

Kiesel doesn't do custom shapes. Their production facility is entirely made for pre-designed guitars carved with CNC routers. That's how they can deliver in just a few months. If you like one of their models then it's a good choice in your price range, just know that they make essentially a "semi-custom" guitar. You pick options from what they offer and they build you a very nice guitar. Some of the things you listed like neck angles and top mount Floyds (why?) or asymmetric neck profiles are things they might be willing to do for extra cost or more likely they will just refuse.

I think you are jumping into the custom build thing too quickly. I understand the desire to have your dream guitar, but based on your posts I get the feel that you may not have tried and owned enough production guitars if you say Ibanez or PRS are no good for death metal. Of the guitars I own, the only ones that would not be good for death metal are my Strat and semi-hollowbody.


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## Aso (Aug 29, 2016)

cardinal said:


> They won't do a custom select 7 string for less than $3k unless the dealer I've talked to is really out of the loop.
> 
> But I hope I'm wrong!!! Can I really order an RR 7-string for $3k or less?



Jackson 7 strings are a Masterbuilt only option currently. My Jackson CS silverburst KV was over 3k so even if they did a CS 7 string you would be looking at closer to 4k.


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## Aso (Aug 29, 2016)

laxu said:


> First off if you mean a mahogany neck with ebony strips or something for reinforcement, I don't think I have ever seen that combo. Would probably be expensive.



I had Jackson quote a Mahogany/Ebony neck six months ago. You are correct in that it's expensive. Let's just the woods for the 5 piece neck got changed. It also would add 6-8 months to the build time so they could source the ebony.


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## cardinal (Aug 29, 2016)

Aso said:


> Jackson 7 strings are a Masterbuilt only option currently. My Jackson CS silverburst KV was over 3k so even if they did a CS 7 string you would be looking at closer to 4k.



That's what I thought, but posters here were talking like this wasn't true (to be fair, they may not have noticed that this topic started in the 7-string section and was moved here). 

I was just quoted $5000 street ($7500 or so MSRP) for a bare bones mahogany bodied, bolt-on 7-string Charvel. No fancy woods or specs or inlay. Maple neck, bolted to a slab mahogany body. $5k. Two years.


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## RLG167 (Aug 29, 2016)

cardinal said:


> That's what I thought, but posters here were talking like this wasn't true (to be fair, they may not have noticed that this topic started in the 7-string section and was moved here).
> 
> I was just quoted $5000 street ($7500 or so MSRP) for a bare bones mahogany bodied, bolt-on 7-string Charvel. No fancy woods or specs or inlay. Maple neck, bolted to a slab mahogany body. $5k. Two years.



Why was it moved? I'm asking about a 7 string, and I'm certainly not a beginner


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## exo (Aug 29, 2016)

Technically, the question you've asked is about custom shops, not 7 string guitars. 

EVERY thread that asks something along the lines of "what X is best?" is moved to this section, because they're Frequently Asked Questions. Amps, builders, guitars, they all end up here...The name of the subforum this was moved to IS "Beginer/FAQ".........don't take personal offense at the move.


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## Pav (Aug 29, 2016)

Aso said:


> Jackson 7 strings are a Masterbuilt only option currently. My Jackson CS silverburst KV was over 3k so even if they did a CS 7 string you would be looking at closer to 4k.



I'm impressed that you could get a custom KV for that low of a price! My CS Soloist ended up costing $4200 when all was said and done and I think a custom Rhoads _starts_ at close to 4k.


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## HaloHat (Aug 29, 2016)

Kiesel, but no 7 string 27" scale V shape [or I would have ordered one lol] You DO NOT want to know what I was quoted by Jeff for a 27" scale 7 string Ultra V with me sending them all the woods for the guitar and no finish work on the guitar at all. You would not believe me if I told you the $$$price$$$

edit: I just read your second more detailed post. I see your good with a 25.5" scale. I would think Kiesel could do what you want for under $3k for sure. Unless Jeff needs a new race car maybe lol. I am not sure they scallop fret boards at this point however that is something you can have done easy enough by a reputable shop. Also not sure they can do the reverse In-Line headstock or if they would, that would probably cost you dearly.



I have received quotes from RAN GUITARS not too long ago that would closely fit your specs. Surprised nobody has mentioned them...

If you need to know who scallops fretboards and will do it right try these people [assuming they still do, they used to anyways]

Parson's Guitars. By appointment only. Call them.
http://www.parsonsguitars.com/service.php

https://parsonscalifornia.com/pages/buils-your-own-at-parsons-guitars


Specializing in scallop jobs. Has prices for partial scallop jobs.
http://dccustomguitars.com/scalloping.htm


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## HaloHat (Aug 29, 2016)

Aso said:


> I had Jackson quote a Mahogany/Ebony neck six months ago. You are correct in that it's expensive. Let's just the woods for the 5 piece neck got changed. It also would add 6-8 months to the build time so they could source the ebony.



I can find them the Ebony today. WTH? Something ain't right 

[ok really - Your getting yanked. Jackson could get the ebony for a 5pc neck in the time it takes them make a pot of coffee in the break room. seriously.]


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## HaloHat (Aug 29, 2016)

I couldn't see the price going much beyond this, who knows but Kiesel Guitars. This should be close given that the below has an allowance for your choice of a Quilt Top pricewise and I don't think the switch from Purple Heart below would be too different for ebony on the neck. It shouldn't be. I through some extra ebony options on the below just to bump the price and match the ebony neck and board. You can send them your own choice of pickups at build time.


Base Model	Options	Quantity	Price
ULTRAV7C
Right Handed
Floyd Rose Tremolo 1	$1,199.00

LN - Floyd Rose Locking Nut	$30.00
SM - Flamed Spalted Maple Top	$400.00
NMAH - Mahogany Neck & Body	$100.00
CS - Satin Matte Finish	$0.00
5HP - 5-Piece Mahogany Neck w/ 2 Purple Heart Stripes	$240.00
NS - Neck Covered By Optional Top Wood	$50.00
THKN - Thicker Neck Profile	$60.00
7PHR - 7-String Pointed Headstock Reverse 3+4	$30.00
-PH - Headstock To Match Body Finish (Standard)	$0.00
-EF - Ebony Fingerboard (Standard)	$0.00
ID - Dot Inlays	$0.00
IMP - Mother of Pearl Inlay Material	$0.00
-WSD - Standard Side Dots (Standard)	$0.00
STJF - Stainless Jumbo Frets .055" H .110" W	$40.00
-R14 - 14in Fretboard Radius (Standard)	$0.00
-K14B - Kiesel K14B Direct-Mount Passive Bridge Pickup (Standard)	$0.00
-K14N - Kiesel K14N Direct-Mount Passive Neck Pickup (Standard)	$0.00
-400 - Black Pickups (Standard)	$0.00
BC - Black Hardware	$30.00
-1056 - Elixir Light Gauge .010 - .056 (Standard)	$0.00
DSLG - Drop Shadow Gold Metallic Logo	$30.00
BPE - Ebony Rear Electronics Cavity Cover	$50.00
TCE - Ebony Truss Rod Cover	$35.00
HC19 - Black Tolex Hardshell Guitar Case	$125.00
Custom Shop Total: $2,419.00
Options Discount: $-100.00

Print These Specs Remove

Sub-Total	$2,319.00

http://www.kieselguitars.com/catalog/guitars/ultrav7


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## Pav (Aug 29, 2016)

HaloHat said:


> I can find them the Ebony today. WTH? Something ain't right



Really?? What's your ebony source?


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## A-Branger (Aug 29, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I have an LTD1000, and it's one of my favorite guitars. Plays nice, I have played others and feel like mine is one of those rare instances where they got all the frets perfect. I have yet to play another 1000 that plays as well as mine. About the Ibanez and PRS, it's more of how I personally see guitars. I see Ibanez and PRS as more prog guitars. I have a friend who has both an Ibanez Prestige 7 MIJ and a USA Custom 22, and I just can't play Death Metal on them, it's the weirdest thing. And what I meant by being afraid to take it out of the house is I don't want to spend an insane amount of money on something with a rare figured top and super high gloss finish, I'd rather keep it simple. Quilt top, satin finish. I didn't literally mean I'd be afraid to take it out of the house, I meant more I don't want something super exotic.



fair enough

also remember any guitar can (and should be) be sent to a luthier to get professionally setup. Not just intonation, nut, but also fret leveling


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## RLG167 (Aug 30, 2016)

What is Purpleheart? I'm seeing it on the custom order form for Carvin, as a 5 PC neck with Mahogany. Is it like Maple dyed purple, or is it a different species of wood entirely? And I actually asked them about carving an asymmetrical neck profile. They said they used to but don't anymore. Which is a shame, because you can't really re-carve a neck after the guitar is made.


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## Pav (Aug 30, 2016)

Purpleheart is its own species of wood known for having a purple-ish hue, kinda like how this bass looks.


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## Forkface (Aug 30, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> _I want a functional guitar, not one I'm going to worry about taking out of the house. _
> Then you should get a production guitar.



emm... thread/ ?


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## Possessed (Aug 30, 2016)

Pav said:


> I'm impressed that you could get a custom KV for that low of a price! My CS Soloist ended up costing $4200 when all was said and done and I think a custom Rhoads _starts_ at close to 4k.



My CS King V costs about 3k too. Perhaps you choose oil neck, reverse HS and white color? These specs alone will drive the final price much higher!


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## angl2k (Aug 30, 2016)

http://www.espguitars.com/products/17180-e-ii-arrow-7-blk

Get one of these and try it out? It's not mahogany but it's a good start and you can always mod it to your likings. Get it refinished etc.

It has ebony fretboard, 25.5" scale, reverse inline headstock, floyd, even has a 66-7 in the neck and locking tuners.


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## Aso (Aug 30, 2016)

HaloHat said:


> I can find them the Ebony today. WTH? Something ain't right
> 
> [ok really - Your getting yanked. Jackson could get the ebony for a 5pc neck in the time it takes them make a pot of coffee in the break room. seriously.]



It's ebony stringers for a full neck-thru blank not a bolt on.


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## RLG167 (Aug 30, 2016)

angl2k said:


> http://www.espguitars.com/products/17180-e-ii-arrow-7-blk
> 
> Get one of these and try it out? It's not mahogany but it's a good start and you can always mod it to your likings. Get it refinished etc.
> 
> It has ebony fretboard, 25.5" scale, reverse inline headstock, floyd, even has a 66-7 in the neck and locking tuners.



Yeah, I was actually considering that, or if I wanted to go 6, ESP makes an E-II V thats a symmetrical V, not like a Rhoads type. that's a mahogany body, Mahogany neck-through, Ebony fretboard with abalone dots. It's pretty much exactly what I wanted but it's only available in 6 string, and the bridge is a TOM. Which could be a good thing because then it has a built in neck angle and maybe I could get it routed for a Floyd? It also has a standard inline, which I would prefer a reverse inline since they hold a tune better because they put more tension on the low strings. I guess if I could live with a Rhoads type and non-Mahogany body I could check out the one above more. Heres a link to what I was talking about
http://www.espguitars.com/products/17226-e-ii-v-ii-std-blk?category_id=1968274-v-series-guitars


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## cardinal (Aug 30, 2016)

If there's a locking nut, the orientation of the headstock will have no impact whatsoever on the tension over the nut. 

I assume you want a steep neck angle because of how it places the neck relative to your body while playing, but it's sort of an odd thing to fixate on. If it's very critical to you, you may want a bolt on guitar so that you can use shims to set the angle exactly where you want it.


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## exo (Aug 30, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Yeah, I was actually considering that, or if I wanted to go 6, ESP makes an E-II V thats a symmetrical V, not like a Rhoads type. that's a mahogany body, Mahogany neck-through, Ebony fretboard with abalone dots. It's pretty much exactly what I wanted but it's only available in 6 string, and the bridge is a TOM. Which could be a good thing because then it has a built in neck angle and maybe I could get it routed for a Floyd? It also has a standard inline, which I would prefer a reverse inline since they hold a tune better because they put more tension on the low strings. I guess if I could live with a Rhoads type and non-Mahogany body I could check out the one above more. Heres a link to what I was talking about
> http://www.espguitars.com/products/17226-e-ii-v-ii-std-blk?category_id=1968274-v-series-guitars




They have a VERY similar 7 string model in their LTD line called the Hex-7. It's the sig guitar of Nergal from Behemoth and has some graphics on the body, but if you're dead set on having that Floyd, the routing will take care of ~20% of it.....or you could get it sprayed over as long as you're gonna deep dive on modding things. I'm not sure how it compares to your 1000 series, quality wise, or if it's more in line with the 400 series stuff or whatnot....but it exists and it streets at $1k.

There's also the discontinued LTD V-307 to look into as a base platforms or what you want to do, and proaudiostar.com claims to have a brand new one for under $500. http://www.proaudiostar.com/esp-ltd...gle_Shopping&gclid=CLiEju-v6c4CFQgcaQodZ4QHjg


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## Lorcan Ward (Aug 30, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> It also has a standard inline, which I would prefer a reverse inline since they hold a tune better because they put more tension on the low strings



A properly cut nut and correct use of a locking tuner will do much more than headstock orientation will for tuning stability.


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## RLG167 (Aug 30, 2016)

I was looking into a Hex-7 because I'm a HUGE Behemoth fan, actually. And I'm pretty set on a neck angle because I do a lot of pinch harmonics and I find it helps with my pick angle. I also find the height of the string off the body to be more comfortable to play.


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## Tuned (Aug 31, 2016)

As long as you're looking at the Floyd Rose option which implies dead locking the strings at the beginning of the fretboard, inline reverse headstock or specific brand tuners won't do the work that you want them to do since the tension on the neck is not transported beyind the string lock to the string scale area. If you like the looks that's a whole different story.

If you like a symmetrical V mahogany/maple cap mahogany/ebony 25'5" Floyd Rose, then there's the ESP/LTD Ninja (comes in several options, but there's that). It comes with Seymour Duncans 59/JB (which is a great set BTW, and good enough for Arch Enemy and Carcass), but changing them to an EMG set is not even as complicated as changing wheels on one's ride.

I read the whole thread here and have just a few things to add that you might want to think through. Or not. 

I understand you're 18 and you desire a guitar that you will be connected to. This may happen or may not, and there's only one way to know it. You'll only find this after several years of playing it. 
If you don't, it will totally become your 'suitcase without a handle' that you won't drop and can't carry. Why? Because fully custom secondhand guitars are a very narrow market and it will lose you A LOT of money when, and if, you sell it. BTW, the next owner(s) won't lose when they resell, they'll probably gain, because it will be you who will carry all the expense of the 'all-new all-custom' that doesn't transfer to the used market. That will equal to, say, a few thousand dollars of yours.

Also, I had an experience of bulding 3 basses for me in the past that led me to a conclusion that someone above stated already. 
The first one was built for me when I was 18 or 19. The luthier didn't execute the neck-thru for a reason I still don't understand, but all the rest was done to my specs. It turned out a worse bass than another of his make that I was playing at the time. 
After a dozen years LAKLAND Bass who are a renowned bass boutique builder (think Ozzy/Black Sabbath, Whitesnake, Death Angel, Papa Roach, The Rolling Stones, U2, Chicago, etc.etc.) built me a bass to my exact specs. It was a great bass but I found I had no practical use for it 95% of the playing time. I sold it and lost a huge amount. For a reason, the next owner had it totally customized. 
Last of all, I thought better: I bought a LAKLAND limited edition run bass used, which saved me LOTS of bucks, and sent it back to the factory to customize it exactly to my specs. They did it all; it turned a great instrument. But after all I found all my expectations turned out worse than their production line bass: they just know the matter, and I THOUGHT I did. So I sold it. But it cost me next to nothing so it was worth learning.

So the bottom line will be: why don't you do the following: buy a used battered guitar that is close to the core of your request (e.g. mahogany/ebony 25'5" neck-thru) and send it to a good luthier to customize. He can add a maple cap if the core doesn't have it. He'll install a Floyd Rose (unless it is a TOM-oriented neck-thru), and will absolutely install the pickups and electronics that you want, take care of the neck etc.etc., and it will cost you around what a production guitar costs. You may love it to death; and if you don't, it will be your prototype that cost you little and is not a pain to sell. Prototyping is the way luthiers and signature artists actually come to what they want.

Personally I can recommend Carl Pedigo http://www.chicagobassdoctor.com/ who was LAKLAND Bass's senior luthier for ower a decade and still has connection to them. He's a great person to deal with, and is the one who did all the PITA custom work for me. His all-custom guitar would cost me around $5000, but a used LAKLAND bass totally customized by LAKLAND Bass's Hands cost me what a regular production line bass costs.

We talked about making a guitar but never actually got around that. Later I bought a used EBMM JP7 that I was so excited to get that I didn't send it to him first. And, frankly, I was disappointed by the price to quality ratio of EBMM. So next time I buy a EBMM JP or, more likely, a SbMM JP, I will absolutely send it to Carl who will make a stunning instrument out of it as it deserves to be.

All the best,

Denis


EDIT: Oh, I remembered a story told by Yuri Shishkov who is now a Fender Custom Shop master luthier. At the time he was working at Washburn he had the privilege to work with Dimebag Darrell and his guitars. So when one of Darrell's favourite guitars (IIRC that was the Culprit but I wouldn't bet on it) grew so worn that it wouldn't bear any service, refretting or whatever, it came to a point where he needed a new guitar, not a part-time substitute but like a reincarnation. It had been tried before but never satisfied Dimebag totally who didn't want exact reproduction of all the detail but rather the reproduction of the 'essence' of the guitar. So Yuri asked for the right to try with a carte blanche on his work. He chose other wood options and didn't tell Dime about that, and the result was astonishing and totally satisfying the customer.


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

Tuned said:


> As long as you're looking at the Floyd Rose option which implies dead locking the strings at the beginning of the fretboard, inline reverse headstock or specific brand tuners won't do the work that you want them to do since the tension on the neck is not transported beyind the string lock to the string scale area. If you like the looks that's a whole different story.
> 
> If you like a symmetrical V mahogany/maple cap mahogany/ebony 25'5" Floyd Rose, then there's the ESP/LTD Ninja (comes in several options, but there's that). It comes with Seymour Duncans 59/JB (which is a great set BTW, and good enough for Arch Enemy and Carcass), but changing them to an EMG set is not even as complicated as changing wheels on one's ride.
> 
> ...



Thanks, you've given me a lot to think about. First, a "hot-Rodded" production guitar may not be that bad, if I start with a higher end production guitar (ie, Ltd 1000, 400 even). I could even do it myself, I'm somewhat of an independent luthier. I've had friends give me their guitars to do work on. Paint, custom electronics, neck refins, and I even did a top once. But I've never done more than new pups and maybe new paint to any of my guitars, I'd even be afraid of messing it up. So I will check him out, see what his rates are. I also think that if I don't do a modded production guitar but still want the feel of a custom, I'd go with Carvin's pre-built custom line. They're custom shop models that are for sale on the Carvin website, and what I'm looking for generally stays under 2k. The other one I was looking into was that E2 Arrow 7. And I wanted the reverse inline because it'll help when I'm tuning the Floyd, or if I decide to block it it'll help. And yeah, it does look cool  and I like locking tuners no matter if it's a locking nut or not, because it just makes string changes that much easier.


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## exo (Aug 31, 2016)

Gonna repeat one thing that's already been said a couple of times by other folks that you don't seem to be getting: if you have a guitar with a locking nut that is actually being used (I.e. You are clamping the strings down), headstock orientation is absolutely meaningless. The strings, for all intents and purposes, "end" at that clamped nut. The anchoring the strings and rendering them immobile at the nut is the entire point of a locking nut.

A reverse headstock will NOT help with tuning or stability, or any of that stuff because the clamping anchors the string AT THE NUT. It's the exact same in function as the lock clamps on a headless guitar like a Strandberg or Vader, and why a Floyd has fine tuners:after you clamp it, your headstock tuners are in essence non functional.

If you want a reverse headstock for aesthetic reasons, go for it. Nothing wrong with that.....but it's not going to have a "functional" impact on a guitar with a locking nut once it's clamped.

I TOTALLY get you on locking tuners for string change reasons, though. Love my locking tuners on the guitars that have them for that exact reason.


Hope you feel like we're getting you pointed in the right direction, man. Figuring out guitar stuff can be a PITA.


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

exo said:


> Gonna repeat one thing that's already been said a couple of times by other folks that you don't seem to be getting: if you have a guitar with a locking nut that is actually being used (I.e. You are clamping the strings down), headstock orientation is absolutely meaningless. The strings, for all intents and purposes, "end" at that clamped nut. The anchoring the strings and rendering them immobile at the nut is the entire point of a locking nut.
> 
> A reverse headstock will NOT help with tuning or stability, or any of that stuff because the clamping anchors the string AT THE NUT. It's the exact same in function as the lock clamps on a headless guitar like a Strandberg or Vader, and why a Floyd has fine tuners:after you clamp it, your headstock tuners are in essence non functional.
> 
> ...



I know with a locking nut it makes no difference. As I stated previously, I wanted a reverse inline incase I decide to block off the Floyd. And the string tension also helps when tuning a floyd.


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## exo (Aug 31, 2016)

You keep repeating the mantra of "a reverse headstock helps with sting tension". It doesn't. It CAN'T. 

If you lock the nut down, nothing behind the nut affects things. The extra length behind the nut makes no difference on tension or stability in FRONT of the nut when locked. That's literally the entire reason the locking nut concept exists. Once you have the nut clamped down, you can literally turn the tuners, drop every ounce of tension off the strings behind the nut, and it won't affect the tension of the string between the trem and the nut. Doesn't matter if you block the Floyd or not. The clamped down nut is where all the force (tension) gets exerted. A reverse headstock will NOT help with what you think it does when a locking nut is used. If you're gonna block it or not makes no difference. Unless you intend to block the Floyd and then take the pads off the locking nut (which I wouldn't recommend personally, the steel of the lock nut isn't gonna let a string glide over it the same way a standard nut does) at which point why would you bother with the cost and time if modding a non Floyd equipped guitar to have one in the first place?

A reverse headstock is purely an aesthetic choice on a Floyd equipped guitar, no matter if it comes stock with the Floyd or if it's modded to have one. Seriously. That's simply how the physics at play work.


The main reason I've gone back to this point a few times is because having a true and proper understanding of how it actually works will possibly broaden your horizons as far as your choices go.....


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## Señor Voorhees (Aug 31, 2016)

exo said:


> You keep repeating the mantra of "a reverse headstock helps with sting tension". It doesn't. It CAN'T.
> 
> If you lock the nut down, nothing behind the nut affects things. The extra length behind the nut makes no difference on tension or stability in FRONT of the nut when locked. That's literally the entire reason the locking nut concept exists. Once you have the nut clamped down, you can literally turn the tuners, drop every ounce of tension off the strings behind the nut, and it won't affect the tension of the string between the trem and the nut. Doesn't matter if you block the Floyd or not. The clamped down nut is where all the force (tension) gets exerted. A reverse headstock will NOT help with what you think it does when a locking nut is used. If you're gonna block it or not makes no difference. Unless you intend to block the Floyd and then take the pads off the locking nut (which I wouldn't recommend personally, the steel of the lock nut isn't gonna let a string glide over it the same way a standard nut does) at which point why would you bother with the cost and time if modding a non Floyd equipped guitar to have one in the first place?
> 
> ...



As a fun experiment of just how little beyond the locked nut makes, you can snip the string between the nut and peg, or just tune DOWN with the peg. (edit: For clarification, I mean after clamping down. In fact I don't recommend this at all since unclamping it will rapidly introduce the new tension and if the string was snipped, it will fly out due to having no anchor point. Like snipping a string that's under full tension. The point is that once clamped, the string behind the nut is utterly useless and the guitar would function if it were removed entirely.) Your string tension shouldn't change on the playing side of the nut.

That said, he did mention how he wants the option to block the floyd and remove the pads, in which case a reverse headstock would make a functional difference. I have a few guitars where I've blocked the floyd and removed the pads completely and I don't have any sort of tuning instability issues or anything, so it is quite easily doable. Floyd nuts are actually super convenient in that you don't need to size and shape it if you switch gauges later on. (provided it's blocked, since switching gauges on a floating floyd plays hell with the actual floating aspect.)


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

I think there was a misunderstanding here. I know how locking nuts work, I'm a tech and luthier. When I block off my floyds, I take the locks off so I can use the headstock tuners. I think you guys thought that I'd clamp it back down, and that's where the confusion was. I know if it's locked it doesn't make a difference. I mean I'd block the Floyd and take the locks off to use the tuners. Hope that cleared things up.


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4639123 said:


> ...That said, he did mention how he wants the option to block the floyd and remove the pads, in which case a reverse headstock would make a functional difference. I have a few guitars where I've blocked the floyd and removed the pads completely and I don't have any sort of tuning instability issues or anything, so it is quite easily doable. Floyd nuts are actually super convenient in that you don't need to size and shape it if you switch gauges later on. (provided it's blocked, since switching gauges on a floating floyd plays hell with the actual floating aspect.)



Thank you, that's what I meant. I know if you're using the locks a reversed headstock is just aesthetic, but when I block my floyds I take the locking pads off so I can use the tuners without having to re-lock it. I honestly didn't even know when people block it they put the pads back on. I guess if you're drop tuning it makes sense. But I don't use the locking pads if I've blocked it, and I thought most people didn't either lol. I kept reading it thinking "why do people keep saying that? If I block the Floyd there is no lock" again, just a misunderstanding


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## exo (Aug 31, 2016)

Then why bother with the Floyd? 

Lock nuts aren't meant or designed to be used without the clamps, bends can make the strings rub, bind, and "ping", especially on the lower strings. The steel isn't exactly a smooth, properly cut nut, it's made to help ELIMINATE slippage, rather than let strings glide in a smooth, stable manner. Even blocked, you're still far better off using the lock nut properly because the stability issues you're worried about won't exist. Even an Ibanez "fixed edge" (the ultimate "blocked Floyd") still uses the lock nut.

Just seems like you've "overthought" yourself into a giant circle, trying to account for a potential issue that doesn't exist unless you create it trying to cover your bases on "potential issues".

Just food for thought.


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

exo said:


> Then why bother with the Floyd?
> 
> Lock nuts aren't meant or designed to be used without the clamps, bends can make the strings rub, bind, and "ping", especially on the lower strings. The steel isn't exactly a smooth, properly cut nut, it's made to help ELIMINATE slippage, rather than let strings glide in a smooth, stable manner. Even blocked, you're still far better off using the lock nut properly because the stability issues you're worried about won't exist. Even an Ibanez "fixed edge" (the ultimate "blocked Floyd") still uses the lock nut.
> 
> ...



I've never had any of those problems with a blocked floyd and no locks. Plays just like any other nut to me. I also put graphite powder on the nut if I block it. And I like the option of a Floyd, but if I decide I need anot her guitar with a hardball for a new song maybe, I have to block it


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## A-Branger (Aug 31, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> . And I wanted the reverse inline because it'll help when I'm tuning the Floyd, or if I decide to block it it'll help.





RLG167 said:


> ......And the string tension also helps when tuning a floyd.



lol what? please explain



the size and/or orientation of a headstock doesnt change the tension on a string, nor it makes string bending easier or harder for that matter(bending is determined by the scale length, the longer the scale, the more you have to "bend" the string to get to the next note). Your tension is determined by the scale length between the bridge and the nut, not the bridge and the tuning peg 

I get your idea that going with a reversed headstock would mean a "longer" string would have better tension for the lows, and a "shorter" string for the highs would have less tension so easier to bend. Thats actually the concept of a multiscale. But your guitar is NOT a multiscale, because you are NOT tuning your string at the tuning peg, you are tuning your guitar at the nut. So all the tension you think you are gaining on the B string by reversing an in-line headstock, is getting lost by the fact that the B note has to be achieved at the nut.

Think about it like if your tuning pegs were the nut, and see the original nut as a fret. If you tune to B at the new nut(your tuning peg), yes, you have lots of tension, but if you tune down in order to get B at the 5th fret (the position of the original nut), then you guitar is tuned in F# now, so less tension on the string. So the longer the string, the more tension it has, but the more it has to be de-tuned in order to achieve B at the same spot..... get it?

if you really are a "luthier" like you claim yourself you are, then you should know this.

then also every tension calculator out there is wrong as it doesnt account for the length of the string behind a nut. If that were the case then I have like a 32" scale on my high E on my ibanez, bending should be impossible by your standards 





EDIT: I just though about another example since we are talking about floyds and we all agreed that once the nut is locked you could just cut the strings behind the nut and nothing would change. Basically the guitar becomes a "headless" guitar.... so:



1- Try to bend your string.... easy right?. Now clamp the nut... bend the string again.... equally easy no?  you just changed the string lenght of the guitar from a 32" to a 25.5" one (far more difference than reversing an in-line headstock). Your tension should be all over the place by the way you think

2- We all know how a floating tremolo like a floyd works.... right? so the tremolo stays steady flat because the tension on the springs is equal to the tension from the strings, till the point were one tinny change in tension on one string (like turning the peg a little) would make the whole guitar out of tune as the floyd moves...... right?

soooooo.......

why is it when after you tune your guitar with the tuning pegs with your in-line headstock (or any shape really), and you clamp the nut, the tension on the floyd doesnt change at all?, meaning the tremolo stays flat..... I mean since all that extra length on each string is now being cut off by the locking nut..... By your way of thinking then the tremolo should be all over the place with the new tension..... right?


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> lol what? please explain
> 
> 
> 
> ...



First, I'm not stupid and I'd appreciate it if you didn't treat me as such. And yes, it helps with tuning stability because more tension at the headstock with a longer string can hold a tune better. The scale is something completely different. And please don't question my saying I'm a luthier, it's insulting. I'm not going over all of this again, read the past posts


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## Hollowway (Aug 31, 2016)

Well, the span of string between the nut and the tuning peg does have some effect on the feel of a string. When you bend a string, it is being stretched along the long axis of the string. In other words, you are changing the total length of the string by a tiny amount. In physics, this is defined as the strain. Strain = change in length divided by length. Anyway, in a nut with zero friction (because, in reality, bending a string will increase friction at the nut because of the angle of entry), if you bend the string, it is being stretched along the entire long axis of the string, from tuner to nut. That means that although the nut functions as a node in terms of tuning, the actual string length itself matters in terms of the feel of the string, and how "bendy" it feels. So a lot of string beyond the nut will feel more bendy that a string terminating at the nut. Again, this may be an academic argument, since bending a string increases friction at the nut.

That aside, I think we're missing the bigger picture: Reverse inline headstocks are better than others because they simply look badass. That's an indisputable fact.


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## RLG167 (Aug 31, 2016)

^^Yes, they look great


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## exo (Aug 31, 2016)

I guess what I'm not getting here is if tuning stability....the string retaining it's pitch......is an issue, proper usage of the locking nut stops that dead in it's tracks regardless of whether or not the trem is blocked, so why go away from that?

More than that, tuning stability has NOTHING to do with the overall length of the string. That's got to do with how well anchored the ends of the string are. On properly stretched, broken in strings, if the tuning isn't stable, your string is slipping at one of the end points, either the bridge, the tuners, or an improperly cut nut. Those are the only things that will affect the stability, because physics.

A reverse headstock doesn't impart any "extra tension", either. Again, it's a physics thing. Given a fixed diameter, increased tension caused an increased pitch. Meaning that if you have an .046 that's "in tune" at a given tension, an increase in that tension will take it out I tune.

"Slinkier feel" is a real thing with a reverse headstock, that's true. And as Holloway said, they indisputably look badass. 

I am also obsessing over this waaaaay too much. Just want OP to have a proper understanding of what's actually going on with the whole reverse headstock deal.......


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## Tuned (Aug 31, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> That aside, I think we're missing the bigger picture: Reverse inline headstocks are better than others because they simply look badass. That's an indisputable fact.



No. we didn't miss that point, this has been stated 3 or 4 times so far  I do like my ESP Edwards reversed to say the truth. Never liked the regular ESP pointed shape THAT much. 

What we are missing though is the direction of this thread. The OP explained the two reasons he wants a reversed inline and locking Sperzels and those are reasons good enough for me. Jeez, I've seen so many people looking for exact COLOR of guitar, and everybody here thinks it is alright.
LOL, BTW there was a time when I was asked to substite a bass player for a headliner who play 70-ies soft rock. So when I came to rehearse and played my black one they wrinkled their faces and said I needed to bring something less agressive. So next time I brought a 3-TB color bass and they totally loved the sound, 'that's the one!'. The thing is, at the time I had 2 absolutely identical LAKLAND 55-94s, one black another 3-TB.

Now back to the topic...


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## RLG167 (Sep 1, 2016)

^^cool story


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## A-Branger (Sep 1, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> . more tension at the headstock with a longer string can hold a tune better.



but thats the point you are missing. You dont have more tension jsut because the headstock is longer.

Yes, you have a string which the total length of it is longer due to the new extended position of the peg.

But,

All that extra new tension is being lost by the fact that now you would have to tune down that string in order to achieve the same note at the nut.

the new tension gained by extra length is being canceled by a "lower tuning" in order for you to achieve lets say "B" at the nut 


try to extend your fretboard all the way to the tuning pegs. Call the nut the "0 fret", Before for your low 7 string peg, you only have one space for a fret before the peg, so you have a "-1_0_1_2_3_4_5....ect" fretboard in there, so your string would have to be tuned to Bb.

Now you reverse the headstock, for your low string you would have now enough space for 6 new frets, so from the peg it would be -6_-5_-4_-3_-2_-1_0_1_2_3_4_5.....ect, so your string now would have to be tuned down to F in order for you to still have "B" at the 0 fret mark as before. So all the gain in tension from the extra length is being lost due to de-tuning 

as exo points out too:



exo said:


> A reverse headstock doesn't impart any "extra tension", either. Again, it's a physics thing. Given a fixed diameter, increased tension caused an increased pitch. Meaning that if you have an .046 that's "in tune" at a given tension, an increase in that tension will take it out I tune.










RLG167 said:


> . And yes, it helps with tuning stability because



to quote exo again:



exo said:


> tuning stability has NOTHING to do with the overall length of the string. That's got to do with how well anchored the ends of the string are. On properly stretched, broken in strings, if the tuning isn't stable, your string is slipping at one of the end points, either the bridge, the tuners, or an improperly cut nut. Those are the only things that will affect the stability, because physics.







the real reason we love reverse headstock, and the why you should get one in your next guitar is this:




Hollowway said:


> Reverse inline headstocks are better than others because they simply look badass. That's an indisputable fact.


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## exo (Sep 1, 2016)

Let me clarify that I am not hating on wanting a reverse headstock in the slightest. I'm trying to make sure the OP understands that if the want of the reverse headstock is motivated by concepts of increased tension or tuning stability, that a reverse headstock doesn't ACTUALLY impact those things.

If ya want a reverse headstock, get a reverse headstock if it's available.....just don't rule something out that doesn't have one based on a faulty understanding of function. That's all......


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## A-Branger (Sep 1, 2016)

^^^^ same here. 

reverse headstocks looks great. Get it because you like it, not because you think it would serve a function, which it doesnt


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## Lorcan Ward (Sep 1, 2016)

I've several guitars with regular and reversed headstocks and I've never noticed any change in tension/feel and I'm extremely picky about gauges/tension, having to swap out an 11 for an 11.5 or a 59 for a 60.


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## RLG167 (Sep 1, 2016)

Let me clarify again, I want a reversed headstock because they help with tension AND they look awesome. I didn't want one for the sole reason of the string tension, just an added bonus to me. Seems everyone has a theory though, right?  But let's get off this topic, because it's taken up about a whole page now XD


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## exo (Sep 1, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Let me clarify again, I want a reversed headstock because they help with tension AND they look awesome. I didn't want one for the sole reason of the string tension, just an added bonus to me. Seems everyone has a theory though, right?  But let's get off this topic, because it's taken up about a whole page now XD



It's not theory, it's a hard fact of physics that there's no effect on string tension with a reverse headstock  ok, I promise I'll stop now.....


Here's another possible candidate for you: Jackson RRX7. New enough that I don't think they're out in the wild yet, one of the places I saw supposedly has them shipping in mid September. V.....Floyd......neckthru.......25.5" scale.......reverse headstock. Where it misses on your wanted specs is the woods used, but it sure seems like you're gonna have to make compromises SOMEWHERE with the budget you've got.....

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...e=&network=g&gclid=CILY57qJ7s4CFYU1aQoda4kClA


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## laxu (Sep 1, 2016)

Tuned said:


> So the bottom line will be: why don't you do the following: buy a used battered guitar that is close to the core of your request (e.g. mahogany/ebony 25'5" neck-thru) and send it to a good luthier to customize. He can add a maple cap if the core doesn't have it. He'll install a Floyd Rose (unless it is a TOM-oriented neck-thru), and will absolutely install the pickups and electronics that you want, take care of the neck etc.etc., and it will cost you around what a production guitar costs. You may love it to death; and if you don't, it will be your prototype that cost you little and is not a pain to sell. Prototyping is the way luthiers and signature artists actually come to what they want.



This would probably be really expensive too as it involves removing the original finish, adding a maple top and refinishing on top of all the mods needed to fit a Floyd. If it's a neckthru you pretty much have to strip the finish from the whole guitar if you don't want lines where the new and old finish meet. The mods most likely won't increase the value of the guitar either.

Also neck angle is needed only because of a specific bridge is high, like a TOM is. It has no noticeable effect on playability in my experience as the angle is normally only a few degrees.


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## Tuned (Sep 1, 2016)

laxu said:


> This would probably be really expensive too as it involves removing the original finish, adding a maple top and refinishing on top of all the mods needed to fit a Floyd. If it's a neckthru you pretty much have to strip the finish from the whole guitar if you don't want lines where the new and old finish meet. The mods most likely won't increase the value of the guitar either.



hmm, you're probably right. I know Marty Bell who does all the gorgeous refinish charges from $300 for a body to $550 for full neck-thru, but I'm sure not everyone is Marty Bell and you can find lesser prices.
My old band, we were always home-served since one of the guitarists does car paint and finish matching at work, so we had it for free (actually, for the price of the materials), LOL
I don't know how much adding a droptop will be. EdRoman charge $1,250 but these guys have always been pirates. Devide by 5 maybe? 

As for mods not adding to the resale value, that's the idea. You probably can't get past loosing some money, but clever planning will save you more.


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## narad (Sep 1, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Why was it moved? I'm asking about a 7 string, and I'm certainly not a beginner



>>>



RLG167 said:


> Thread Title: Best Custom Shop?





RLG167 said:


> What is Purpleheart? I'm seeing it on the custom order form for Carvin, as a 5 PC neck with Mahogany. Is it like Maple dyed purple





RLG167 said:


> I was looking into a Hex-7





RLG167 said:


> As I stated previously, I wanted a reverse inline incase I decide to block off the Floyd. And the string tension also helps when tuning a floyd.





RLG167 said:


> I have a friend who has both an Ibanez Prestige 7 MIJ and a USA Custom 22, and I just can't play Death Metal on them



Proof's in the pudding, as it were?


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## Ziricote (Sep 1, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> 1-turnaround time (I'm good with 6-7 months, but I can't justify spending that much on something that'll take over a year).



I looking at this option too. I decided the only option is Mayones and Kiesel for fast build time. There is nothing else


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## RLG167 (Sep 1, 2016)

narad said:


> >>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure I understand your post. Care to elaborate? If you're implying I'm a beginner, that's just insulting. Nothing wrong with asking questions when spending this much on a guitar


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## RLG167 (Sep 1, 2016)

exo said:


> It's not theory, it's a hard fact of physics that there's no effect on string tension with a reverse headstock  ok, I promise I'll stop now.....
> 
> 
> Here's another possible candidate for you: Jackson RRX7. New enough that I don't think they're out in the wild yet, one of the places I saw supposedly has them shipping in mid September. V.....Floyd......neckthru.......25.5" scale.......reverse headstock. Where it misses on your wanted specs is the woods used, but it sure seems like you're gonna have to make compromises SOMEWHERE with the budget you've got.....
> ...



Damn, not too expensive either... I could work with the body woods. I've had good luck with neck-through Jacksons in the past. I'll check it out more, thanks. Just wish it wasn't a Rhoads. I don't really like the smaller side, looks weird to me lol


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## narad (Sep 1, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Not sure I understand your post. Care to elaborate? If you're implying I'm a beginner, that's just insulting. Nothing wrong with asking questions when spending this much on a guitar



Just commenting on you wondering why the thread was moved. It's totally fine to ask a bunch of beginner questions, but then it just belongs in the beginner's thread, where it is. I don't care who is a beginner, who is not, etc., but these questions are right at home in this subforum.


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## A-Branger (Sep 1, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Let me clarify again, I want a reversed headstock because they help with tension AND they look awesome.



thats cool, a few options available some ppl point out already. Im liking the Arrow one more. Just do some crazy cool paint job on it 

but...

I still dont get your reasoning on "they help with tension" and the "also helps when tuning a floyd" you mention earlier.

Im not insulting you or anything. Im just curious on how did you came into that conclusion. I tried to explain my point on the why I believe thats not ture, but I havent read your take on it.


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## Tuned (Sep 1, 2016)

A-Branger said:


> Im just curious on how did you came into that conclusion. I tried to explain my point on the why I believe thats not ture, but I havent read your take on it.



this will start another off-topic page, and YOU , young man, shall burn in hell!


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 1, 2016)

Longer string behind the nut does make the string feel some degree looser, like Holloway said. It doesn't mess with tension though, as a change in tension changes a notes pitch.

Basically, a 46 on a 25.5" scale tuned to E will always pull a certain amount of tension. If you change how much tension there is, ie: higher tension, then the note becomes sharper. Go ahead and enter information into a string gauge/tension calculator... It's super helpful!

So, longer string behind the nut makes a string feel slightly more bendy. (I personally don't really notice much of a difference, but there is one.) It doesn't effect the actual pounds of tension the string is exerting, though. Definitely worth keeping in mind when it comes to all future purchases, not just this one. 

To derail this a bit more, I'm of the unpopular opinion that most reverse headstocks are ugly, especially if they're of the hockey stick/banana variety. Ibanez and Agile inlines tend to look alright, but something like a Kramer, Jackson or Gibson Explorer looks ten million kinds of ugly to me and I avoid them like the plague, regardless of how they play because I'm vain like that. This is getting a little TOO far off topic though.

I still vote for Kiesel, if I haven't already, as they have a quick turnaround time, decent enough prices, and a couple V's and Star shapes that might be to your liking. (too lazy to go back and find the post, but I recall you wanting an Explorer or V type shape that facilitates different arm positionings.)


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## A-Branger (Sep 1, 2016)

Tuned said:


> this will start another off-topic page, and YOU , young man, shall burn in hell!



like I said, Im not trying to attack anyone, Ive already give my point to the subject. And I promise I would keep it that way, I wont "fight" for it.

Im really curious to his reasoning into the subject. like I said, maybe Im missing something??

Like the other two dudes pointed out, better described by the last post of Señor Voorhees. The extra lenght of the string helps to "feel" more bendy, but not necessary "softer" as the string as the same tension. This due (Im assuming here) by the string being longer, have more mass, its easier to "stretch" the string...... (which if thats the case then the last thing you want is a reverse headstock?...) either way, point taken, something new learned


and I dont think Im going off-topic. Since the OP was looking into a custom build, or a specific guitar specs. One of those being the reverse headstock. This due to looks (as they look awesome), and due to (according to him) extra tension, and helps to tune the floyd.

so we are jsut debating about one of the specs he wants. You could debate about mahogany neck+body, or floyd, or neck angle (with the floyd), choice of pickups, or any other spec he listed. As this would help him to either justify his choice or change them, or see whats more important or not or x or y.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Sep 2, 2016)

If I had a bunch of money for a super nice guitar I would try out a Sully guitar. His explorer is probably the best looking one I've ever seen.


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## Aso (Sep 2, 2016)

Jacksonluvr636 said:


> If I had a bunch of money for a super nice guitar I would try out a Sully guitar. His explorer is probably the best looking one I've ever seen.



Too bad Sully doesn't make an Explorer outside of the run of five "Elitas" he did as a tribute to Lita Ford.


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## Jacksonluvr636 (Sep 2, 2016)

Aso said:


> Too bad Sully doesn't make an Explorer outside of the run of five "Elitas" he did as a tribute to Lita Ford.



That is a shame.


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## RLG167 (Sep 2, 2016)

I was watching a Cannibal Corpse concert online and realized, who makes a V with a sick looking headstock, neck-through and tuned to be the perfect metal machine? BC Rich! Don't know why I didn't think of it earlier. The only thing is that now the only V they make is the mk3, bolt on neck, Rosewood fretboard, cheap stuff. I know BC Rich is one of those brands (not unlike Dean, now that I think about it) that the low end stuff is really, really cheap quality, but the high end stuff is really incredibly nice. I know they did a line of 7 string V's, neck-through with quilt tops, but I can't seem to find one anywhere. I'll keep looking, though. I may look into Neal Moser (created some of BC Rich's most popular designs when he worked for them but he's an independent luthier now), but I'm assuming it'll be too expensive. I may also look into a used Bernie Rico Jr guitars, because I know they make one called the Vixen that's essentially exactly what I'm looking for.


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## oracles (Sep 2, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I may look into Neal Moser (created some of BC Rich's most popular designs when he worked for them but he's an independent luthier now), but I'm assuming it'll be too expensive



Moser builds, new or used are going to be more than your available budget at the moment. I don't think I've seen one sell below $3500 USD. 



RLG167 said:


> I may also look into a used Bernie Rico Jr guitars, because I know they make one called the Vixen that's essentially exactly what I'm looking for.



You may want to do some googling about the whole Bernie Rico situation before you do that.


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## exo (Sep 2, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I was watching a Cannibal Corpse concert online and realized, who makes a V with a sick looking headstock, neck-through and tuned to be the perfect metal machine? BC Rich! Don't know why I didn't think of it earlier. The only thing is that now the only V they make is the mk3, bolt on neck, Rosewood fretboard, cheap stuff. I know BC Rich is one of those brands (not unlike Dean, now that I think about it) that the low end stuff is really, really cheap quality, but the high end stuff is really incredibly nice. I know they did a line of 7 string V's, neck-through with quilt tops, but I can't seem to find one anywhere. I'll keep looking, though. I may look into Neal Moser (created some of BC Rich's most popular designs when he worked for them but he's an independent luthier now), but I'm assuming it'll be too expensive. I may also look into a used Bernie Rico Jr guitars, because I know they make one called the Vixen that's essentially exactly what I'm looking for.




The 7 string BCR Junior V you're referencing is something you'll have to go used on. They were discontinued a couple years back and they aren't common. Finding a used one is difficult, a dealer still having one new is likely next to impossible.


http://m.ebay.com/itm/B-C-Rich-Junior-V7-7-string-Guitar-/201653236616?nav=SEARCH

Literally the only one that appears to be out there at the moment.


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 2, 2016)

I have one of those JR V's, and they're pretty damn good quality. The one I have plays really well too. I was considering selling it, but I have no box/case for it, and I wouldn't get much since right now it has no trem bar, no locking pads, and no pickups. I do recommend one though, if you can find one. Another reason I'm hesitant to sell it is because it was one of my favorite guitars to play until I sold the pickups I had in it.

You will likely want a pickup swap if you buy it with the stock pups. The ebay link above has the stock pickups in it, which were cheapie BC Rich pups, and he's selling it used for what I paid for it brand new. If it's in mint condition, it's worth the price though. edit: If you can overlook the fact that it has no warranty with the full price.


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## RLG167 (Sep 2, 2016)

oracles said:


> ...You may want to do some googling about the whole Bernie Rico situation before you do that.



What situation? I looked it up and didn't find any situation. Can you elaborate please?


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## exo (Sep 2, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> What situation? I looked it up and didn't find any situation. Can you elaborate please?




Basically a few years back Bernie ran a "Black Friday sale", took waaaaaay to many orders, couldn't deliver on the orders he took for whatever reason, and long story short, multiple people are out LARGE sums of money. We're talking large scale criminal fraud. Dude is shady as hell, and there's a stigma attached to the brand because of it. While the older guitars are apparently great, the closer you get to the point in production when he screwed people, the shoddiest the work is.

There's actually a thread devoted to the debacle in the luthiery section. Might have to hunt for it a bit since the mods un pinned it from the top of the forum, but it won't be more than a page or so back.

On top of that, 7 string vixen's were really rare thing, and even secondhand may be out of your preferred price area.


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## RLG167 (Sep 2, 2016)

exo said:


> Basically a few years back Bernie ran a "Black Friday sale", took waaaaaay to many orders, couldn't deliver on the orders he took for whatever reason, and long story short, multiple people are out LARGE sums of money. We're talking large scale criminal fraud. Dude is shady as hell, and there's a stigma attached to the brand because of it. While the older guitars are apparently great, the closer you get to the point in production when he screwed people, the shoddiest the work is.
> 
> There's actually a thread devoted to the debacle in the luthiery section. Might have to hunt for it a bit since the mods un pinned it from the top of the forum, but it won't be more than a page or so back.
> 
> On top of that, 7 string vixen's were really rare thing, and even secondhand may be out of your preferred price area.



Damn, that sucks. I found a couple used 6 string Vixens for sale, and they were even 3k


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## Tuned (Sep 3, 2016)

edroman.com have plenty designs loosely based on B.C.Rich shapes. Just saying.


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## exo (Sep 3, 2016)

Jeeze.....you're really gonna do that to the kid? LOL!


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## RLG167 (Sep 3, 2016)

I just checked out andertons.co.uk and they have some guitars I've never seen in US based stores. After 5 minutes of looking around, I found this https://www.andertons.co.uk/p/29121...-beaulieu-x-series-kv-7-string-in-satin-black 7 string neck-through King V with reverse inline headstock and a Floyd. I'm not a huge Trivium fan (they have a few good songs), but I think I could overlook that


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## exo (Sep 3, 2016)

Not sure if Anderton's will ship to the US because of dealer network restrictions and whatnot,or what the price would look like after currency conversion and international shipping.

Link for a USA dealer....

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item...+2912127+568&gclid=CNDrsdWX884CFQyUaQodhOYGCw

Googling "Jackson Corey Beaulieu KV7" will bring up several other dealers, but everyone seems to be right at that $900 ballpark.


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## RLG167 (Sep 3, 2016)

exo said:


> Not sure if Anderton's will ship to the US because of dealer network restrictions and whatnot,or what the price would look like after currency conversion and international shipping.
> 
> Link for a USA dealer....
> 
> ...



Thanks. They just seemed to have more on the site then I've seen. Like, for example, they have the new "B" series (like a Strat, but shaped a bit different) and I checked GC, MF, Sweetwater, Zounds, SamAsh, etc., nobody seems to have those in stock here. And with the conversion the V is right at $830 I think. It says they ship worldwide, and if they're a worldwide dealer shipping can't be much.


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 3, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Thanks. They just seemed to have more on the site then I've seen. Like, for example, they have the new "B" series (like a Strat, but shaped a bit different) and I checked GC, MF, Sweetwater, Zounds, SamAsh, etc., nobody seems to have those in stock here. And with the conversion the V is right at $830 I think. It says they ship worldwide, and if they're a worldwide dealer shipping can't be much.



You gotta add taxes and stuff too, which usually adds a large chunk. No harm in looking into it though.


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## Wolfhorsky (Sep 3, 2016)

Have You considered Skervesen?


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## RLG167 (Sep 3, 2016)

Wolfhorsky said:


> Have You considered Skervesen?



Do they make a V or EX?


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## Hollowway (Sep 3, 2016)

Skervesen aren't going to get anywhere close to that price range, and they aren't in the body shapes he wants. I do remember Guerilla having some aggressive looking body shapes, so that might be an option. They have super low resale values, so you might be able to pick one of those up second hand.

Edit: Does this work for you? http://guerillaguitars.net/shop/s-vr727-shadow-black/

They also have this explorerish shape: http://guerillaguitars.net/shop/t-tr7-fr-shadow-black/


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## RLG167 (Sep 3, 2016)

Hollowway said:


> Skervesen aren't going to get anywhere close to that price range, and they aren't in the body shapes he wants. I do remember Guerilla having some aggressive looking body shapes, so that might be an option. They have super low resale values, so you might be able to pick one of those up second hand.
> 
> Edit: Does this work for you? http://guerillaguitars.net/shop/s-vr727-shadow-black/
> 
> They also have this explorerish shape: http://guerillaguitars.net/shop/t-tr7-fr-shadow-black/



Those are nice! That second one reminds me of the Jackson Rob from Death Angel uses. If Jackson ever makes a Pro series version of the new Mick Thomson Double Rhoads, I'm getting it!


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## Aso (Sep 3, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Those are nice! That second one reminds me of the Jackson Rob from Death Angel uses. If Jackson ever makes a Pro series version of the new Mick Thomson Double Rhoads, I'm getting it!



The Jackson that Rob Cavestany's uses is called a Death Angel and they only build them for him. I wouldn't hold my breath to ever see a Jackson Double Rhoads as anything but a Masterbuilt option that will cost you 6k+


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## UniverseOfTheMind8 (Sep 4, 2016)

I recommend saving up a couple more grand and going with either Ormsby or .Strandberg*. You won't regret it. You aren't going to get a 100% custom guitar for any lower than probably around 4k-5k. Ormsby and Strandberg have the best customs out there (imo at least)


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## RLG167 (Sep 4, 2016)

I don't like headless, and I'm looking for more V/EX type. Thanks though


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## Wolfhorsky (Sep 4, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Do they make a V or EX?


They made Vaptor for some time. Regarding price: if You choose normal specs without crazy top, it can be really manageable.


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## purpledc (Sep 4, 2016)

I really hate to say it but I would avoid carvin myself as well. My experience with them is you will get a beautiful instrument but you may get a musically dead instrument. All my carvins looked amazing. But having owned about 10 carvins I cant say any of them were impressive tonally. In fact I spent $2400 on a guitar from them that I would say was probably my worst sounding guitar I have ever owned. I would go with a full custom and do some research on which guys make exactly what you want. In the sub $3000 range you actually have a good amount of options. There are luthiers out there doing really good work but just haven't built the name to command the insane prices. Oh and yes in your price range you can forget ESP.


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## RLG167 (Sep 4, 2016)

How about E-II? They have a lot of models with the specs I'm looking for. I've heard that they're rebranded ESP Standard, and they're rebranded LTD Elite. I've also heard they're B Stock ESPs. Does anyone actually know? I've read that they're great and feel like ESP Standard, and that they should be avoided at all costs. If they're good quality and I decide to go with E-II, I could even get a couple


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## Blytheryn (Sep 5, 2016)

E-II is the new Standard Series. They are the same guitars, spare a different headstock decal.


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## Hollowway (Sep 5, 2016)

Check out Oakland Axe Factory and Fast Guitars, as well. Those guys are exceptionally good luthiers, very professional, and have a quick turn around. You could get an explorer shape from Fast, and OAF could do a number of different things, including a custom shape, depending on how busy he is. And both of them are in the sub $3000 range. I've got instruments from both, and they come ideal right out of the case.


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## laxu (Sep 5, 2016)

purpledc said:


> I really hate to say it but I would avoid carvin myself as well. My experience with them is you will get a beautiful instrument but you may get a musically dead instrument. All my carvins looked amazing. But having owned about 10 carvins I cant say any of them were impressive tonally.



I have to disagree. Both my Carvin/Kiesel guitars sound very good. While the Lithium pickups aren't my favorite, there isn't anything really wrong with them. Build quality on both of mine is very good, with only some minor issues with side dots. How exactly would you describe "musically dead"?


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## RLG167 (Sep 5, 2016)

A friend of mine is considering selling his Hanneman he custom ordered from ESP a number of years ago, but I'll have to talk him down from his asking price of $4,000. If I can succeed in that, I may just have my guitar!


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## Jeffbro (Sep 5, 2016)

purpledc said:


> I really hate to say it but I would avoid carvin myself as well. My experience with them is you will get a beautiful instrument but you may get a musically dead instrument. All my carvins looked amazing. But having owned about 10 carvins I cant say any of them were impressive tonally. In fact I spent $2400 on a guitar from them that I would say was probably my worst sounding guitar I have ever owned.



They sound like any other guitar with the same specs and woods combo. If you spent $2400 on an awful combination of woods then it will sound like just that. Their pickups are decent but don't mesh with all the options they have, neither would any other pickups.


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## Tuned (Sep 5, 2016)

I would expect the Corey Beauilieu V7 and the Double Rhoads to be hell of uncomfortable guitars to play seated


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## RLG167 (Sep 5, 2016)

Tuned said:


> I would expect the Corey Beauilieu V7 and the Double Rhoads to be hell of uncomfortable guitars to play seated



I hold guitars classical style, so I actually prefer V's for sitting


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## Tuned (Sep 5, 2016)

a Rhoads - no doubt, it has a cutaway that you place your right thigh in. A Double Rhoads - not so much , it has symmetrical horns that are somewhat 2" longer than those of the King V. From the Corey V7, I'd also expect neck diving. There isn't much wood in the V to redesign its neck balance


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## mnemonic (Sep 6, 2016)

I don't know you, so I can really only go based on my own experiences. But what I liked and what I played when I was 18 has changed tons over the years, and at 28, I listen to music and play guitars that I looked at when I was 18 and thought, "I won't ever like that" or "I wouldn't ever play that." I just think this is something important to keep in mind, especially since $3,000 is a .... load of money for most 18 year olds, and dropping that much on a guitar that you might feel less excited about in even three years time is just a recipe for regret. 

If I were you (and this is the advice I would have given my 18 year old self also, when I was drawing pictures in MS paint of my perfect custom guitar) is to build your own, either from scratch if you think you can hack it, or by modifying an existing guitar. Given your previous posts in this thread, it sounds like you know what you want, and it sounds like you have some technical skills, so it should be a realistic project. 

You can get pre-made (fretted, etc) neck thru's from carvin, and you can specify the woods and get probably 80% of what you want (save for the ebony stingers). You could also ask for a thick neck profile so you can shape it yourself. Their necks are done with no neck angle, so you may need to laminate wood to the top and bottom of the neck thru portion, and plane it down to add an angle. Or you could go bolt-on with an ibanez (or something) neck, or just have a replacement neck made by someone, and work your own body around it. 


Just a thought. It saves money, time (no 1+ year lead times, assuming you have the spare time to build), and how good the guitar is, is up to you rather than a potentially unproven luthier (assuming no big names due to budget and specs).


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## RLG167 (Sep 6, 2016)

mnemonic said:


> I don't know you, so I can really only go based on my own experiences. But what I liked and what I played when I was 18 has changed tons over the years, and at 28, I listen to music and play guitars that I looked at when I was 18 and thought, "I won't ever like that" or "I wouldn't ever play that." I just think this is something important to keep in mind, especially since $3,000 is a .... load of money for most 18 year olds, and dropping that much on a guitar that you might feel less excited about in even three years time is just a recipe for regret.
> 
> If I were you (and this is the advice I would have given my 18 year old self also, when I was drawing pictures in MS paint of my perfect custom guitar) is to build your own, either from scratch if you think you can hack it, or by modifying an existing guitar. Given your previous posts in this thread, it sounds like you know what you want, and it sounds like you have some technical skills, so it should be a realistic project.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the advice. I'm either going with a high end stock guitar or I'll build one myself. And I know the exact shape I want, too. My Dean USA Splittail is my favorite guitar I own because it's so comfortable to play sitting or standing. So if I can get a good stock V (a 400 or 600 series ltd maybe?) I can make the horns myself and go from there.


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## purpledc (Sep 6, 2016)

laxu said:


> I have to disagree. Both my Carvin/Kiesel guitars sound very good. While the Lithium pickups aren't my favorite, there isn't anything really wrong with them. Build quality on both of mine is very good, with only some minor issues with side dots. How exactly would you describe "musically dead"?



A musically dead guitar is one that has no resonating properties at all. No brilliance to the top. Its a muddy dull sounding guitar with brand new strings. The one I was disappointed most with was a CT624 with the zaza options before there was a zaza model. The thing had a black limba body which limba is usually pretty light. This guitar was a boat anchor. Almost made me think they were using resin stabilized wood because the thing was heavier than any LP I had but you just couldn't get a note to ring out on it. I swapped pickups, the trem and it was hopeless. But it wasn't the only guitar they made that sounded horrible. And I'm not the only one who thinks so. 

I have also had issues with the finish separating from the body which is usually due to moisture trapped under the finish. Sometimes I think they use wood that just isn't properly dried. Again as far as looks go they are amazing. They look like a $5000 custom. But out of the 10+ carvins I have owned only one of them I would consider buying back if I saw it up for sale but even that guitar took some good amount of mods for me to be happy with. 

If you are happy with yours more power to you. You may have gotten a couple good ones. But I cant in good conscience recommend a brand that has let me down so many times. I would honestly recommend an epiphone before a Carvin these days if a musical instrument is what someone wants. If they want a flashy looking guitar shaped object then Carvin is a great choice. Who knows I haven't had them make me an instrument in about 3 years. Maybe they are the cats pajamas now. But I wouldn't recommend them based on the new builds and the used guitars I have purchased.




Jeffbro said:


> They sound like any other guitar with the same specs and woods combo. If you spent $2400 on an awful combination of woods then it will sound like just that. Their pickups are decent but don't mesh with all the options they have, neither would any other pickups.



Really? How much experience do you have with guitars? You think every company dries their woods the same way? You think all guitars are equal no matter who makes them? As long as its the same wood all things are equal? LOL, that's a pretty odd statement from someone with any real background in the instrument. You can go ahead and believe whatever you seem to believe but I'm not about to agree with you today or any other day. After 25 years playing these planks of wood with strings, I have developed some different opinions of which I will stick to.


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## laxu (Sep 7, 2016)

purpledc said:


> A musically dead guitar is one that has no resonating properties at all. No brilliance to the top. Its a muddy dull sounding guitar with brand new strings. The one I was disappointed most with was a CT624 with the zaza options before there was a zaza model. The thing had a black limba body which limba is usually pretty light. This guitar was a boat anchor. Almost made me think they were using resin stabilized wood because the thing was heavier than any LP I had but you just couldn't get a note to ring out on it. I swapped pickups, the trem and it was hopeless. But it wasn't the only guitar they made that sounded horrible. And I'm not the only one who thinks so.
> 
> I have also had issues with the finish separating from the body which is usually due to moisture trapped under the finish. Sometimes I think they use wood that just isn't properly dried. Again as far as looks go they are amazing. They look like a custom. But out of the 10+ carvins I have owned only one of them I would consider buying back if I saw it up for sale but even that guitar took some good amount of mods for me to be happy with.



I've had electrics that don't sound like much acoustically but sound fantastic through an amp. But of course you can end up getting lemons from any manufacturer - at least ones using wood as the main material. Likewise wood weight can vary quite a bit and I have never heard limba being described as lightweight. If that's what you were after then you could've probably specified that you want it to be as light as possible so they'd pick the pieces a bit based on that.

The finish issues sound more like they've sprayed on more coats before they ones underneath have dried. I have a hard time believing wood's moisture content would cause something like that. Hope they at least fixed that by refinishing the guitar or replacing it?

Your experience is perfectly valid but I'd still say it's maybe not definite to say Carvin/Kiesel makes poor sounding guitar. Plenty of happy owners out there. For the money and turn-around time I think they offer really nice guitars. Not always perfect and I don't like how they do bursts but still really nice.


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## mniel8195 (Sep 7, 2016)

3k will get you a really nice suhr modern!


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## purpledc (Sep 7, 2016)

laxu said:


> I've had electrics that don't sound like much acoustically but sound fantastic through an amp. But of course you can end up getting lemons from any manufacturer - at least ones using wood as the main material. Likewise wood weight can vary quite a bit and I have never heard limba being described as lightweight. If that's what you were after then you could've probably specified that you want it to be as light as possible so they'd pick the pieces a bit based on that.
> 
> The finish issues sound more like they've sprayed on more coats before they ones underneath have dried. I have a hard time believing wood's moisture content would cause something like that. Hope they at least fixed that by refinishing the guitar or replacing it?
> 
> Your experience is perfectly valid but I'd still say it's maybe not definite to say Carvin/Kiesel makes poor sounding guitar. Plenty of happy owners out there. For the money and turn-around time I think they offer really nice guitars. Not always perfect and I don't like how they do bursts but still really nice.



No since the delamination was starting from several screw holes. Their solution was to countersink the holes larger until the demalination was removed. As for the rest of your assessment we will have to agree to disagree as I dont share your viewpoints. That was one example of several guitars that had issues.


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## Jeffbro (Sep 7, 2016)

purpledc said:


> Really? How much experience do you have with guitars? You think every company dries their woods the same way? You think all guitars are equal no matter who makes them? As long as its the same wood all things are equal? LOL, that's a pretty odd statement from someone with any real background in the instrument. You can go ahead and believe whatever you seem to believe but I'm not about to agree with you today or any other day. After 25 years playing these planks of wood with strings, I have developed some different opinions of which I will stick to.



Kiesel treats their woods just fine, as you can probably guess from their exploding customer base. If you've been playing that long you should know a company doesn't just make "dead" pieces of wood. They would be stupid to, and they would be out of business.

To your ridiculously sarcastic questions, yes if they use the same wood and treat it similarly they will sound similar. One guitar won't magically turn out dead because it came out of a shop you don't like.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 7, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> What situation? I looked it up and didn't find any situation. Can you elaborate please?





Google BRJ Black Friday...


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 7, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel treats their woods just fine, as you can probably guess from their exploding customer base. If you've been playing that long you should know a company doesn't just make "dead" pieces of wood. They would be stupid to, and they would be out of business.
> 
> To your ridiculously sarcastic questions, yes if they use the same wood and treat it similarly they will sound similar. One guitar won't magically turn out dead because it came out of a shop you don't like.



Do you work for Carvin or do you just like to dick ride?


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## Jeffbro (Sep 8, 2016)

Konfyouzd said:


> Do you work for Carvin or do you just like to dick ride?



20k posts and still in high school... got some bad news for you buddy


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## purpledc (Sep 8, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> Kiesel treats their woods just fine, as you can probably guess from their exploding customer base. If you've been playing that long you should know a company doesn't just make "dead" pieces of wood. They would be stupid to, and they would be out of business.
> 
> To your ridiculously sarcastic questions, yes if they use the same wood and treat it similarly they will sound similar. One guitar won't magically turn out dead because it came out of a shop you don't like.



Then at this point I will stop taking anything you say seriously. Your last name wouldnt happen to be kiesel would it?


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## Blytheryn (Sep 8, 2016)

purpledc said:


> Then at this point I will stop taking anything you say seriously. Your last name wouldnt happen to be kiesel would it?



Exactly what I was thinking...


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## USMarine75 (Sep 8, 2016)

IMO I'd go ESP or Schecter USA Custom Shops. I've played and own everything from Mayones to PRS and I've never played anything better than a Schecter USA Custom. Absolute 10/10. If you want something less "wooden" and more "metal" then I would go ESP.


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## purpledc (Sep 8, 2016)

USMarine75 said:


> IMO I'd go ESP or Schecter USA Custom Shops. I've played and own everything from Mayones to PRS and I've never played anything better than a Schecter USA Custom. Absolute 10/10. If you want something less "wooden" and more "metal" then I would go ESP.



Problem is though that this persons max budget is 3k. I don't think you can get a custom ESP for that.


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## RLG167 (Sep 9, 2016)

I may end up going E-II. I emailed ESP asking about the quality and here's a quote pulled from the email they sent me back

"Hello,

Thank you for contacting ESP Guitars Customer Service. We apologize for the extended delay in our response to your inquiry. We appreciate you reaching out to us. The ESP Standard Series is no longer produced, this particular product line was re-branded as the ESP E-II Series. At this time the LTD Elite Series has been discontinued and will no longer be produced. If you have any further questions or concerns, please feel free to contact us. 

Best Regards,

Customer Service
ESP Guitars"

So I guess E-II is ESP Standard, not LTD Elite


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## feraledge (Sep 9, 2016)




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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 9, 2016)

laxu said:


> Your experience is perfectly valid but I'd still say it's maybe not definite to say Carvin/Kiesel makes poor sounding guitar. Plenty of happy owners out there. For the money and turn-around time I think they offer really nice guitars. Not always perfect and I don't like how they do bursts but still really nice.



I'm one of those happy owners. I own two of them, and both are without any noticeable flaw. Some of my favorite guitars in fact. There are tons more happy stories than bad stories, which is just what people have to base their decisions on.

Fortunately, regardless of people's opinions, it's pretty much risk-free, provided you don't get any option 50's. You think it sounds dead and lifeless, send it back. They have a very generous trial period, so one guy's bad experience is ultimately irrelevant. More likely than not, you'll end up with something you actually like. As I said, there are way more happy customers than customers who feel let down. Not everyone is going to like a given brand, and that's fine. Their opinions are equally valid. Hell, I wish people were more honest about how they felt about a purchase. It's either "the best ever" or "avoid like the plague." 

For what it's worth, I don't trust 1 or 5 star ratings. If somebody does nothing but rail on a product, they were likely let down so they ham up how awful their experience was. (which is the vibe I get when somebody says they were severely let down 9 times and still bought a 10th.) If somebody does nothing but praise a product, it's likely the honeymoon phase/popular opinion, which is pretty much most reviews.


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## RLG167 (Sep 9, 2016)

feraledge said:


>



Was that for my post? If it was, I know E-II has gotten a lot of crap, but at this point I think I'm just going to listen to what ESP says. I've heard so many different things, I honestly think people just don't like that it doesn't say ESP on the headstock


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## purpledc (Sep 9, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I may end up going E-II. I emailed ESP asking about the quality and here's a quote pulled from the email they sent me back
> 
> "Hello,
> 
> ...



LTD elite was only made for a single year or maybe two. They were the precursor to EII. They have the same body, and electronics and build quality. The only time you really get any difference in a LTD elite is if its a trem model because the Floyd versions use Korean floyds which I would argue are better than the german floyds anyways. So in reality all three designations reference the same model guitars. The only real difference is the name on the headstock.




Señor Voorhees;4642851 said:


> . If somebody does nothing but rail on a product, they were likely let down so they ham up how awful their experience was. (which is the vibe I get when somebody says they were severely let down 9 times and still bought a 10th.) .




I would argue the person who bought 10 guitars from a particular brand to be ultimately disappointed in the end was just trying to be thorough and not discount a brand without real first hand experience. My own personal issues with the brand were from the guitars I actually had custom made for myself and how they conducted themselves when there was an issue with one of the instruments. I don't know if you were referencing me when you brought this up or not. But If you were I did not say I was severely let down with every instrument. I said there was more than one, and it there were enough problems that I got turned off the brand. But I had played carvin exclusively for several years.


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## laxu (Sep 10, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4642851 said:


> Fortunately, regardless of people's opinions, it's pretty much risk-free, provided you don't get any option 50's. You think it sounds dead and lifeless, send it back. They have a very generous trial period, so one guy's bad experience is ultimately irrelevant.



This is a great point, especially for anyone residing in US. Totally forgot about it. For me sending the guitar back would've been pretty expensive since I live on the other side of the world but thankfully my experience was a good one. I even received a small refund from Kiesel for the minor finish and side dot issues I had. But for anyone in the US, getting a Kiesel is only going to cost you some shipping costs if you don't like it. For most people their normal options are going to be fine but it is still a good idea to discuss the build with them via phone or email.


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 10, 2016)

purpledc said:


> I would argue the person who bought 10 guitars from a particular brand to be ultimately disappointed in the end was just trying to be thorough and not discount a brand without real first hand experience. My own personal issues with the brand were from the guitars I actually had custom made for myself and how they conducted themselves when there was an issue with one of the instruments. I don't know if you were referencing me when you brought this up or not. But If you were I did not say I was severely let down with every instrument. I said there was more than one, and it there were enough problems that I got turned off the brand. But I had played carvin exclusively for several years.







> But having owned about 10 carvins I cant say any of them were impressive tonally.





> But out of the 10+ carvins I have owned only one of them I would consider buying back if I saw it up for sale but even that guitar took some good amount of mods for me to be happy with.





> But I cant in good conscience recommend a brand that has let me down so many times.



This alludes to being unhappy/let down with at least 9 guitars, and the one you DID like you didn't like straight from the factory. One of them was even "the worst sounding guitar you ever owned."

You get burned once, there's a chance you just got a bad deal. It happens with even the best. If you got 3 guitars in a row that were tonally dead, it seems rather foolish to push on into buying more of them. It's like sticking your hand into a box of razor blades. You really aught to think something's amiss when your hand comes out bloody a few times, and it shouldn't take 9+ attempts to come to a conclusion.

I find it hard to believe you got 9+ duds in a row since the two I own, and the handful of others I've played (maybe six? I can't recall), felt just like any other competently made guitar. Fit, finish, and tonewise, they are/were all good quality guitars. It's one thing to give a company the benefit of the doubt, and it's another thing to give them over $10k after they've let you down time and time again. You had to have liked _something_ about them if you kept returning after the fourth or fifth guitar.


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## purpledc (Sep 10, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4643289 said:


> This alludes to being unhappy/let down with at least 9 guitars, and the one you DID like you didn't like straight from the factory. One of them was even "the worst sounding guitar you ever owned."
> 
> You get burned once, there's a chance you just got a bad deal. It happens with even the best. If you got 3 guitars in a row that were tonally dead, it seems rather foolish to push on into buying more of them. It's like sticking your hand into a box of razor blades. You really aught to think something's amiss when your hand comes out bloody a few times, and it shouldn't take 9+ attempts to come to a conclusion.
> 
> I find it hard to believe you got 9+ duds in a row since the two I own, and the handful of others I've played (maybe six? I can't recall), felt just like any other competently made guitar. Fit, finish, and tonewise, they are/were all good quality guitars. It's one thing to give a company the benefit of the doubt, and it's another thing to give them over $10k after they've let you down time and time again. You had to have liked _something_ about them if you kept returning after the fourth or fifth guitar.



It alludes to you making assumtions. You are reading what you want to read. Of 10 guitars none were that impressive tonally. I didnt say I got ten duds in a row. Hell I really didnt go into much detail at all. So maybe questions should come before the assumptions? Saying that none were that impressive doesnt mean all ten were horrible. It simply means that none of them impressed me so much with their sound that I just had to keep them or would recommend them over other instruments that i felt sounded better. You have never had a guitar that wasnt bad but not really anything special either? If life is that cut and dry for you and its either black or white then I surely envy you. It doesnt work that way for me. 

And yes of the hundred plus instruments I have owned that particular guitar was the worst sounding instrument of all of them. As for what you find hard to believe ask yourself what is my incentive to lie? If you want to point the finger and insinuate im just being dishonest about my experiences remember that can go both ways. I could just as easily make assumptions about how you came to your conclusion of the company and its products. 

I however would rather amount it to different opinions forged from different experiences. I dont need to sit here and think of excuses to invalidate your opinion and call into question your character to feel justified in my beliefs. Neither one of us needs to be lying to have both of our opinions be valid. But, you surely are entitled to believe whatever you want, whether its accurate or not.


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## Jeffbro (Sep 11, 2016)

purpledc said:


> It alludes to you making assumtions. You are reading what you want to read. Of 10 guitars none were that impressive tonally. I didnt say I got ten duds in a row. Hell I really didnt go into much detail at all. So maybe questions should come before the assumptions? Saying that none were that impressive doesnt mean all ten were horrible. It simply means that none of them impressed me so much with their sound that I just had to keep them or would recommend them over other instruments that i felt sounded better. You have never had a guitar that wasnt bad but not really anything special either? If life is that cut and dry for you and its either black or white then I surely envy you. It doesnt work that way for me.
> 
> And yes of the hundred plus instruments I have owned that particular guitar was the worst sounding instrument of all of them. As for what you find hard to believe ask yourself what is my incentive to lie? If you want to point the finger and insinuate im just being dishonest about my experiences remember that can go both ways. I could just as easily make assumptions about how you came to your conclusion of the company and its products.
> 
> I however would rather amount it to different opinions forged from different experiences. I dont need to sit here and think of excuses to invalidate your opinion and call into question your character to feel justified in my beliefs. Neither one of us needs to be lying to have both of our opinions be valid. But, you surely are entitled to believe whatever you want, whether its accurate or not.




People are just skeptical when you say carvin makes "dead" sounding instruments including the worst you've ever had, and that you never keep any of them, but you went ahead and bought 10 of them. Something is wrong here.

Pick one: you didn't buy 10 carvins, not all of them were bad, you're straight up lying

I don't particularly like them, but I really hate bandwagon haters who start making things up to trash a brand over and over


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 11, 2016)

purpledc said:


> It alludes to you making assumtions. You are reading what you want to read. Of 10 guitars none were that impressive tonally. I didnt say I got ten duds in a row. Hell I really didnt go into much detail at all. So maybe questions should come before the assumptions? Saying that none were that impressive doesnt mean all ten were horrible. It simply means that none of them impressed me so much with their sound that I just had to keep them or would recommend them over other instruments that i felt sounded better. You have never had a guitar that wasnt bad but not really anything special either? If life is that cut and dry for you and its either black or white then I surely envy you. It doesnt work that way for me.
> 
> And yes of the hundred plus instruments I have owned that particular guitar was the worst sounding instrument of all of them. As for what you find hard to believe ask yourself what is my incentive to lie? If you want to point the finger and insinuate im just being dishonest about my experiences remember that can go both ways. I could just as easily make assumptions about how you came to your conclusion of the company and its products.
> 
> I however would rather amount it to different opinions forged from different experiences. I dont need to sit here and think of excuses to invalidate your opinion and call into question your character to feel justified in my beliefs. Neither one of us needs to be lying to have both of our opinions be valid. But, you surely are entitled to believe whatever you want, whether its accurate or not.



They were impressive enough for you to spend at _least_ another $5000 on 5 more guitars after you had already spent $5000+ on "unimpressive" guitars.

I would have no trouble believing you if you said one was the worst sounding guitar you've owned if you didn't say you also had 9+ others that were unimpressive and lifeless. Seriously, again, if I bought $3000 worth of guitars and they were all lackluster, I would not buy more. What's the incentive to lie? Why do people over-exaggerate about anything? I'm not obsessive over any brand, Kiesel included. They've done some ....ty things, and ripped a few people off. That color match that was floating around here and their reaction to it is still ridiculous. Doesn't mean their build quality is mediocre. I just don't think you got ten or more lackluster guitars in a row. Hell, I don't think you could get that rate of failure even with Squier, Epiphone, or even cheap ....ty Chinese counterfeits. I have a few kit guitars even that sound pretty decent, and I had a few that didn't. Never came close to receiving anywhere near nine in a row that were lackluster. With a decent setup I wouldn't be able to tell they cost less than $400 if I didn't know it to be true. (I even intend to do an NGD post when I get a demo track recorded for my most recent one.)

Go ahead and call my opinions into question, I don't mind. I won't violently defend Kiesel to the end of the earth. They should have refunded that guy's money when they missed the mark on the color match, and they certainly shouldn't have publicly mocked him. They should know how to put 12th fret side dots on straight. I still don't think you received 9 non-recommendable guitars. Perhaps hyperbole to drive your point home? Maybe you did only play 3 with one being okay, one being the worst guitar ever, and the other being meh. I'd believe that... But I won't believe someone sinking thousands upon thousands of more dollars into something which has proven to be "non-recommendable."


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## purpledc (Sep 11, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> People are just skeptical when you say carvin makes "dead" sounding instruments including the worst you've ever had, and that you never keep any of them, but you went ahead and bought 10 of them. Something is wrong here.
> 
> Pick one: you didn't buy 10 carvins, not all of them were bad, you're straight up lying
> 
> I don't particularly like them, but I really hate bandwagon haters who start making things up to trash a brand over and over



well i hate internet trolls who take issue with one single poster and make it their lifes mission to try and prove something on an internet forum. Yet here you are again trying to tell me what you think you know yet as per usual are way off base. What I stated was the truth. If you dont believe it I really dont care. Your opinion is probably the one i care the least about.


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## purpledc (Sep 11, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4643554 said:


> They were impressive enough for you to spend at _least_ another $5000 on 5 more guitars after you had already spent $5000+ on "unimpressive" guitars.
> 
> I would have no trouble believing you if you said one was the worst sounding guitar you've owned if you didn't say you also had 9+ others that were unimpressive and lifeless. Seriously, again, if I bought $3000 worth of guitars and they were all lackluster, I would not buy more. What's the incentive to lie? Why do people over-exaggerate about anything? I'm not obsessive over any brand, Kiesel included. They've done some ....ty things, and ripped a few people off. That color match that was floating around here and their reaction to it is still ridiculous. Doesn't mean their build quality is mediocre. I just don't think you got ten or more lackluster guitars in a row. Hell, I don't think you could get that rate of failure even with Squier, Epiphone, or even cheap ....ty Chinese counterfeits. I have a few kit guitars even that sound pretty decent, and I had a few that didn't. Never came close to receiving anywhere near nine in a row that were lackluster. With a decent setup I wouldn't be able to tell they cost less than $400 if I didn't know it to be true. (I even intend to do an NGD post when I get a demo track recorded for my most recent one.)
> 
> Go ahead and call my opinions into question, I don't mind. I won't violently defend Kiesel to the end of the earth. They should have refunded that guy's money when they missed the mark on the color match, and they certainly shouldn't have publicly mocked him. They should know how to put 12th fret side dots on straight. I still don't think you received 9 non-recommendable guitars. Perhaps hyperbole to drive your point home? Maybe you did only play 3 with one being okay, one being the worst guitar ever, and the other being meh. I'd believe that... But I won't believe someone sinking thousands upon thousands of more dollars into something which has proven to be "non-recommendable."



Again you are free to believe whatever you wish. I have no reason to lie. If I had only bought one single instrument and came to this conclusion people would say I didnt have enough experience with the brand to reach the conclusion that I have. There really isnt anything that could be said that would get you to believe me. But If you feel like doing the digging I been using this user name for about eleven years and I was very active on both carvin forums for a number of years. Iused to be a very brand loyal person. I no longer am. That user name is based on my first carvin custom build a purple dc400 anniversary model. That was built in 2005. I have owned that many carvin instruments maybe more. Ita only because of that actual first hand experience that I feel I have earned the right to my opinion. If you dont believe i owned these instruments many of them are documented in various threads but most picture links are dead at this point. Believe it, dont believe it, its up to you.

Eiher way i would not have given up these instruments if the sound lived up to the looks. The one I actually would take back is the sh. These are the only ones i have pics of.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 11, 2016)

Jeffbro said:


> 20k posts and still in high school... got some bad news for you buddy



And the bad news would be what? All your posts in here sound like you're either a shill or a fanboy. I don't seem to be the only one that noticed.


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## Konfyouzd (Sep 11, 2016)

I think one thing we're forgetting is that just bc purpledc said the guitars he had sounded bad doesn't mean the rest of the world would. I'm sure someone likes them.


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## purpledc (Sep 11, 2016)

Konfyouzd said:


> I think one thing we're forgetting is that just bc purpledc said the guitars he had sounded bad doesn't mean the rest of the world would. I'm sure someone likes them.



That's a very good point. I was just sharing my personal experience as it relates to me. But I would completely agree with you that just because I didn't like most of my carvins in the end doesn't mean they wouldn't appeal to other people. 4 of the 10 or so I have owned were custom orders and the rest were used. Like most of my guitars they seemed awesome at first but once the honeymoon was over and you can be brutally honest with yourself, I just ended up not caring for them and I moved on. I don't like how they make their neckthroughs and many other things about how they build their instruments I just don't care for. I just didn't care for the insinuation that I or anyone would be lying simply because my experience didn't align with someone elses. And there is a certain someone who really has overstepped and has been nothing but confrontational since they joined.




Konfyouzd said:


> And the bad news would be what? All your posts in here sound like you're either a shill or a fanboy. I don't seem to be the only one that noticed.



He is neither. But it seems he has gone back under his bridge for now. One could only hope for a collapse.


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## RLG167 (Sep 11, 2016)

Should I change the name of the thread or something?


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## laxu (Sep 12, 2016)

purpledc said:


> I don't like how they make their neckthroughs and many other things about how they build their instruments I just don't care for.



Could you elaborate on what you don't like about the neckthrus and other aspects of the build? For me the only main beef is that they seem to have a hard time lining up the side dots properly for some reason and I don't like how they do some of their burst finishes.


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## Church2224 (Sep 12, 2016)

The best custom shop experience I have ever had has been with the Schecter USA Custom Shop. Extremely good guitars for the price and they are very underrated. Also their customer support is incredible and they will make sure you are happy. Their CEO, Michael Ciravolo, I have talked to and he will make sure things happen for you. I currently have five of their guitars, a Sunset Custom, a Contour Exotic Top, a PT Custom nd Two normal PTs and I could not be happier with them. 

I would also highly rate Suhr, Tom Anderson, Grosh, and if you have the cast the ESP Custom Shop.


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## purpledc (Sep 12, 2016)

laxu said:


> Could you elaborate on what you don't like about the neckthrus and other aspects of the build? For me the only main beef is that they seem to have a hard time lining up the side dots properly for some reason and I don't like how they do some of their burst finishes.



Well its not something many have an issue with but on their neckthrough i struments they dont attach the neck with any degree of back angle. This means when thy install a TOM bridge they need to recess it into the body which in turn makes it hard to install a tailpiece if at all. I originally liked the concept of a having the bridge closer to the body. But comparing the way they do things side by side with guitars built with some neck angle i just prefer the sound and feel of the more traditional methods. Im also not a big fan of their electronics which isnt really an issue unless you decide to replace things of which many times you need to expand holes. In some cases you cant install full sized pots because they mount their dime sized pots so close to a cavity wall that even if you expand the hole it wont work as you are just too close to that wall.


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## laxu (Sep 12, 2016)

purpledc said:


> Well its not something many have an issue with but on their neckthrough i struments they dont attach the neck with any degree of back angle. This means when thy install a TOM bridge they need to recess it into the body which in turn makes it hard to install a tailpiece if at all. I originally liked the concept of a having the bridge closer to the body. But comparing the way they do things side by side with guitars built with some neck angle i just prefer the sound and feel of the more traditional methods.



Looking at some pics I can't see anything wrong with the way they do it. The only reason the TOM needs neck angle or recess is because it's such a tall bridge (and generally a horrible design anyway). The recess takes care of the height issue. There should be no change to how the tailpiece or stringthru is done vs a guitar with a neck angle.

I used to own a Dean doubleneck that happened to have TOMs on both necks but one was stringthru and the other a tailpiece. There was no difference in their sound so it's purely an aesthetic choice to use a tailpiece. Likewise I don't really see how neck angle would have any effect on tone unless the guitar has way too much neck angle so the bridge and tailpiece have to be raised high off the body and thus robbing some sustain.


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## purpledc (Sep 12, 2016)

laxu said:


> Looking at some pics I can't see anything wrong with the way they do it. The only reason the TOM needs neck angle or recess is because it's such a tall bridge (and generally a horrible design anyway). The recess takes care of the height issue. There should be no change to how the tailpiece or stringthru is done vs a guitar with a neck angle.
> 
> I used to own a Dean doubleneck that happened to have TOMs on both necks but one was stringthru and the other a tailpiece. There was no difference in their sound so it's purely an aesthetic choice to use a tailpiece. Likewise I don't really see how neck angle would have any effect on tone unless the guitar has way too much neck angle so the bridge and tailpiece have to be raised high off the body and thus robbing some sustain.



Well pics are very difficult to see neck angles as they are slight. Again I didnt say anything was wrong with it. I said its what I prefer. I like TOM bridges despite anyones objection to the design. I would also not say your experince with your dean is definitive of anything except your own perception of which that will vary from person to person. Still the reason carvin need to recess their toms is because they dont manufacture their guitars with an angle where as most companies making neck throughs do. I prefer the traditional method. The reason they do string through body instread of a tailpiece is because with a recessed TOM if you put a tailpiece with it the angle from the bridge to the tailpiece would be reduced. Combined with a shorter 25" scale it can make for a loose feel that im not a fan of. As for tailpieces being purely an aesthetic difference I disagree. I feel there is a difference in tone and in feel. I also get much less sympathy vibrations with a tailpiece over string through body. There is also a difference in the feel depending on whether that tailpiece is raised, lowered or even top wrapped. Again you may not care but I do. There is no wrong here. Just personal preference.


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## laxu (Sep 13, 2016)

purpledc said:


> I would also not say your experince with your dean is definitive of anything except your own perception of which that will vary from person to person.



I brought up the Dean because it is closest to what I have experienced as a setup that is close to identical except for the tailpiece since both necks were part of the same guitar. I don't think it's fair to discredit that then say that your experiences with guitars that had one or the other is more valid.

I do agree that the angle over the TOM to the tailpiece of string thru has an effect on feel. Sound, not so much but definitely feel. I can see that the tailpiece on the Carvin could make it feel looser than one likes, I never liked the wraparound method on my TOM guitars that have the neck angle done correctly. The wraparound method comes mainly from Gibson having hugely varying neck angles on their guitar, for a long time it seemed to be a thing they got constantly wrong on their non-Historic models. I don't know if they do it better nowadays. So people started wrapping the strings around the tailpiece because they had to have the TOM up high because their guitar had too much neck angle. In those guitars this would probably result in what is the normal situation in a guitar with the correct neck angle and strings normally thru the tailpiece.

Stringthru vs tailpiece with correct neck angle, in my experience shows no difference in feel or tone.


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## RLG167 (Sep 13, 2016)

purpledc said:


> Well its not something many have an issue with but on their neckthrough i struments they dont attach the neck with any degree of back angle. This means when thy install a TOM bridge they need to recess it into the body which in turn makes it hard to install a tailpiece if at all. I originally liked the concept of a having the bridge closer to the body. But comparing the way they do things side by side with guitars built with some neck angle i just prefer the sound and feel of the more traditional methods. Im also not a big fan of their electronics which isnt really an issue unless you decide to replace things of which many times you need to expand holes. In some cases you cant install full sized pots because they mount their dime sized pots so close to a cavity wall that even if you expand the hole it wont work as you are just too close to that wall.



If that's how they do their neck-throughs with TOMs, I won't be getting a Carvin, I definitely wouldn't like that. Thanks for posting that, because Carvin was high on my list, so you just saved me a lot of time, money and trouble.


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## laxu (Sep 13, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> If that's how they do their neck-throughs with TOMs, I won't be getting a Carvin, I definitely wouldn't like that. Thanks for posting that, because Carvin was high on my list, so you just saved me a lot of time, money and trouble.



I don't think that's a great reason to rule out the brand considering they do offer models with other bridge options and there is absolutely nothing wrong with mounting the TOM that way. I wouldn't consider having or not having neck angle a feature that is relevant to anything except accommodating the bridge chosen for the guitar. I own several guitars with neck angle and several without and I don't see that the ones without are any different to play.


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## RLG167 (Sep 13, 2016)

laxu said:


> I don't think that's a great reason to rule out the brand considering they do offer models with other bridge options and there is absolutely nothing wrong with mounting the TOM that way. I wouldn't consider having or not having neck angle a feature that is relevant to anything except accommodating the bridge chosen for the guitar. I own several guitars with neck angle and several without and I don't see that the ones without are any different to play.



I've also owned guitars with and without, and I definitely prefer with a neck angle. Maybe to some people it doesn't make a difference, but to me I can feel it while I play. I've had guitars with no neck angle and a TOM before, and I did not like them at all. It felt uncomfortable to play. The only guitars with a 0 neck angle that I like have Floyds, and even then I'd still prefer a neck angle with a top Mount floyd. So if they don't do neck angles, I'm not going to get one. It is that much of a difference to me


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 13, 2016)

The recessed tom bridges allow for them to be lower to the body. It gives it more of a flat mount feel, which is the biggest difference. The only reason there is a neck angle is to facilitate the bridge hight. Neck angles on tom guitars also make pickup rings more of a necessity in that pickups usually need to be a good quarter inch higher in the cavity. 

To each their own of course, but I wouldn't discredit something for having a recessed tom.


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## exo (Sep 13, 2016)

I believe what he's saying is that he detects a feel/ergonomic difference between guitars with no neck angle and ones that have an angled neck. 

There's gonna be a minor difference in positioning of the entire arm on the fret hand side because of the neck having an angle. different shoulder, elbow, and wrist angles, and the potential difference in comfort is no small thing. I hurt my shoulder about 5 months ago with a rather nasty jam/sprain in a fall, and I bought a schecter Omen 7 to play because I literally could not enjoy playing my Epi LPC7. The ergonomics on the LP were just "off" as far as how far "out" from my body it playing it positioned the shoulder joint of my pick hand arm, which was the side I fell on. The Schecter has a carved top with a TOM bridge, like the LP, but the subtle differences in the arch and the position of it relative to the body edge made the difference between being able to play for an hour and being in pain after 10 minutes. Thankfully, at THIS point, my shoulder is recovered enough I can play both of them, but it took me several months before that happened. I've got a buddy that only plays Ibby S series guitars for a similar reason (pick hand shoulder positioning) because of a shoulder separation he suffered YEARS ago.


Maybe the ergonomics aren't why most TOM guitars are built with a neck angle.....but they're still a "thing" that's a valid consideration and legit reason to rule something out.


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## purpledc (Sep 13, 2016)

laxu said:


> I brought up the Dean because it is closest to what I have experienced as a setup that is close to identical except for the tailpiece since both necks were part of the same guitar. I don't think it's fair to discredit that then say that your experiences with guitars that had one or the other is more valid.
> 
> I do agree that the angle over the TOM to the tailpiece of string thru has an effect on feel. Sound, not so much but definitely feel. I can see that the tailpiece on the Carvin could make it feel looser than one likes, I never liked the wraparound method on my TOM guitars that have the neck angle done correctly. The wraparound method comes mainly from Gibson having hugely varying neck angles on their guitar, for a long time it seemed to be a thing they got constantly wrong on their non-Historic models. I don't know if they do it better nowadays. So people started wrapping the strings around the tailpiece because they had to have the TOM up high because their guitar had too much neck angle. In those guitars this would probably result in what is the normal situation in a guitar with the correct neck angle and strings normally thru the tailpiece.
> 
> Stringthru vs tailpiece with correct neck angle, in my experience shows no difference in feel or tone.



my point about the dean is that is a single guitar. And that one single guitar of which one single person cant detect a difference in feel or tone does not disqualify other peoples opinions contrary. Lots of things with guitars are based on personal opinion and observation. My point is it may not be a big deal to you but it may be to others and there is nothing wrong with either position. I am not advocating anyone take sides with me or has to agree with me. But likewise I simply would appreciate people allowing me the freedom to have my own opinion independent of theirs. 

also with the dean, I simply feel the only way for you to be able to make this comparison worth entertaining (again just my personal view) would mean the dean would have to have two necks identical in scale length, number of strings and identical pickups. This however would be an odd guitar to me as it would be rather redundant to mate two identical set ups in a single instrument and have the only difference be the tailpiece. Usually a doubleneck would have one six string neck and a second neck of a differing type. Whether it be a twelve string, seven string, baritone scale, etc. Of which if that were the case I certainly hope there would be a difference in tone based on those variables alone. But even if the pickups were the only difference there should still be a difference to be heard. Now I am sorry but I would be skeptical of anyone making a claim that they could account for what differences in tone would be attributed to only a change in tailpiece and that you could mentally separate all other variables.


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## laxu (Sep 13, 2016)

purpledc said:


> my point about the dean is that is a single guitar. And that one single guitar of which one single person cant detect a difference in feel or tone does not disqualify other peoples opinions contrary. Lots of things with guitars are based on personal opinion and observation. My point is it may not be a big deal to you but it may be to others and there is nothing wrong with either position. I am not advocating anyone take sides with me or has to agree with me. But likewise I simply would appreciate people allowing me the freedom to have my own opinion independent of theirs.
> 
> also with the dean, I simply feel the only way for you to be able to make this comparison worth entertaining (again just my personal view) would mean the dean would have to have two necks identical in scale length, number of strings and identical pickups. This however would be an odd guitar to me as it would be rather redundant to mate two identical set ups in a single instrument and have the only difference be the tailpiece. Usually a doubleneck would have one six string neck and a second neck of a differing type. Whether it be a twelve string, seven string, baritone scale, etc. Of which if that were the case I certainly hope there would be a difference in tone based on those variables alone. But even if the pickups were the only difference there should still be a difference to be heard. Now I am sorry but I would be skeptical of anyone making a claim that they could account for what differences in tone would be attributed to only a change in tailpiece and that you could mentally separate all other variables.



You are certainly right, it was a 6/7 string. Soundwise both necks sounded identical to my ears and felt identical to play as well. I have no idea why Dean decided to go with the different tailpieces (perhaps a 7-string tailpiece was just not available) but they obviously tuned the pickups to sound the same. Likewise acoustically both sounded the same.

I didn't want to say that you had no right to your opinion, I just felt that you were not respecting mine. I guess there is just not enough guitar science done where things like these are actually tested properly so the whole industry is ripe with beliefs and it's hard for anyone to say which is right and which is wrong so it's your word vs mine.


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## purpledc (Sep 13, 2016)

laxu said:


> You are certainly right, it was a 6/7 string. Soundwise both necks sounded identical to my ears and felt identical to play as well. I have no idea why Dean decided to go with the different tailpieces (perhaps a 7-string tailpiece was just not available) but they obviously tuned the pickups to sound the same. Likewise acoustically both sounded the same.
> 
> I didn't want to say that you had no right to your opinion, I just felt that you were not respecting mine. I guess there is just not enough guitar science done where things like these are actually tested properly so the whole industry is ripe with beliefs and it's hard for anyone to say which is right and which is wrong so it's your word vs mine.



Not respecting your opinion was not my intent. Quite the opposite really. I am the type of person that would rather amount it to a difference in opinion and preference. In other words I Would rather view us as both being right in respect to our own preferences and view neither of us as being wrong. Just different strokes for different folks.


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## RLG167 (Sep 13, 2016)

exo said:


> I believe what he's saying is that he detects a feel/ergonomic difference between guitars with no neck angle and ones that have an angled neck.
> 
> There's gonna be a minor difference in positioning of the entire arm on the fret hand side because of the neck having an angle. different shoulder, elbow, and wrist angles, and the potential difference in comfort is no small thing. I hurt my shoulder about 5 months ago with a rather nasty jam/sprain in a fall, and I bought a schecter Omen 7 to play because I literally could not enjoy playing my Epi LPC7. The ergonomics on the LP were just "off" as far as how far "out" from my body it playing it positioned the shoulder joint of my pick hand arm, which was the side I fell on. The Schecter has a carved top with a TOM bridge, like the LP, but the subtle differences in the arch and the position of it relative to the body edge made the difference between being able to play for an hour and being in pain after 10 minutes. Thankfully, at THIS point, my shoulder is recovered enough I can play both of them, but it took me several months before that happened. I've got a buddy that only plays Ibby S series guitars for a similar reason (pick hand shoulder positioning) because of a shoulder separation he suffered YEARS ago.
> 
> ...



Exactly. When I sit and play I hold the guitar classical style, and having the neck back 4 or 5 degrees is incredibly helpful. I also use fairly big picks and I don't like how close to the body my pick gets when playing. I also play a TON of pinch harmonics (I'm pretty much Zakk Wylde  ) and I can never get clean harmonics with no neck angle. So there are a few reasons why I prefer a neck angle.


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## purpledc (Sep 13, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> Exactly. When I sit and play I hold the guitar classical style, and having the neck back 4 or 5 degrees is incredibly helpful. I also use fairly big picks and I don't like how close to the body my pick gets when playing. I also play a TON of pinch harmonics (I'm pretty much Zakk Wylde  ) and I can never get clean harmonics with no neck angle. So there are a few reasons why I prefer a neck angle.



You and I would get along great. My guitar playing friends hate listening to me play because they say I use too many pinch harmonics. I tell them they are just jealous because they don't know how to pull them off (and none of them can) . So to really irritate them when anyone complains about it I play the whole national anthem in nothing but pinch harmonics. And I agree the playing position for me is just more comfy.


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## RLG167 (Sep 13, 2016)

purpledc said:


> You and I would get along great. My guitar playing friends hate listening to me play because they say I use too many pinch harmonics. I tell them they are just jealous because they don't know how to pull them off (and none of them can) . So to really irritate them when anyone complains about it I play the whole national anthem in nothing but pinch harmonics. And I agree the playing position for me is just more comfy.



Lol, yeah man, same with me. Every time I play, it's constantly "stop with the damn squeals!" But all the people who say that can't do them. And my friends who can play pinch harmonics always love them. And some people almost have it to the point where they get sort of a 'dirty' harmonic, but I can get mine crystal clear on every string. And I'm damn proud of that too, I don't know many people who can do that. And yeah, my guitar teacher when I was a kid (I only took about 8 lessons lol) asked me what I wanted to learn. When I said metal, he told me to hold it classical style. And I have to say, it really has helped develop my picking hand. I can do speed triplets and complex picking patterns all day long. I like to think the neck angle also plays a role in that. Because it seems to be trickier for me to get that speed with 0 angle guitars.


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 13, 2016)

exo said:


> I believe what he's saying is that he detects a feel/ergonomic difference between guitars with no neck angle and ones that have an angled neck.
> 
> There's gonna be a minor difference in positioning of the entire arm on the fret hand side because of the neck having an angle. different shoulder, elbow, and wrist angles, and the potential difference in comfort is no small thing. I hurt my shoulder about 5 months ago with a rather nasty jam/sprain in a fall, and I bought a schecter Omen 7 to play because I literally could not enjoy playing my Epi LPC7. The ergonomics on the LP were just "off" as far as how far "out" from my body it playing it positioned the shoulder joint of my pick hand arm, which was the side I fell on. The Schecter has a carved top with a TOM bridge, like the LP, but the subtle differences in the arch and the position of it relative to the body edge made the difference between being able to play for an hour and being in pain after 10 minutes. Thankfully, at THIS point, my shoulder is recovered enough I can play both of them, but it took me several months before that happened. I've got a buddy that only plays Ibby S series guitars for a similar reason (pick hand shoulder positioning) because of a shoulder separation he suffered YEARS ago.
> 
> ...



I won't argue that the two guitars felt different degrees of comfortable, but to say it was the neck angle isn't entirely fair. The neck angle for a TOM is pretty minimal, so I can't imagine it makes a huge difference in ergonomics. Not to say it doesn't, because it might (and I suppose it's not worth spending over a thousand dollars on something to find out) but you also have to take body shapes, neck shapes, neck widths and such into account.

I can speak from personal experience that playing a Les Paul vs an Omen are drastically different. Les Pauls (and moreso, though completely unrelated, Explorers of any variety) tend stiffen my shoulder, while most super-strats like the Omen or Agile Septors are just more comfortable to play at length.

Just a thought, and don't really mean to debate. Like I said, this isn't exactly one of those things you want to spend a ton of money on just to hate later on.


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## exo (Sep 13, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> I won't argue that the two guitars felt different degrees of comfortable, but to say it was the neck angle isn't entirely fair. The neck angle for a TOM is pretty minimal, so I can't imagine it makes a huge difference in ergonomics. Not to say it doesn't, because it might (and I suppose it's not worth spending over a thousand dollars on something to find out) but you also have to take body shapes, neck shapes, neck widths and such into account.
> 
> I can speak from personal experience that playing a Les Paul vs an Omen are drastically different. Les Pauls (and moreso, though completely unrelated, Explorers of any variety) tend stiffen my shoulder, while most super-strats like the Omen or Agile Septors are just more comfortable to play at length.
> 
> Just a thought, and don't really mean to debate. Like I said, this isn't exactly one of those things you want to spend a ton of money on just to hate later on.




All I was saying was that every person's body is different about such things, and "minimal" differences in angles absolutely can be a HUGE thing for people. if "I" and looking for a guitar, "my" personal experiences with things are gonna trump the fact that you don't see how it makes that big a difference. If the OP says it's that big of a deal to him, comfort wise, then it is. Personal fit and ergonomic impact aren't the same type of thing as the empirical physics what a reverse headstock does from a few pages back.

If it wasn't clear, I actually own both an Epi LP7 AND and Omen7, I wasn't talking hypotheticals. There's NGD's for both of 'em floating around here in the older threads  Ironically, I ALSO have a (beat to hell and back) explorer that just happens to have had a top mount FR style trem installed aftermarket. I'll post pics if ya think I'm just BS'ing to try and make my point . I had ZERO issues playing the LP BEFORE I hurt my shoulder. None. And the explorer was my main guitar for a decade before I got more heavily into ERGs. NEVER had an issue with either of them until that point. I'm pretty well healed up now, and I'm back to not having issues with the shoulder positioning. I'm just conveying what my personal experiences earlier this year were with where my hand resting on the bridge and my forearm on the edge of the two guitars positioned my shoulder.


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## RLG167 (Sep 14, 2016)

exo said:


> All I was saying was that every person's body is different about such things, and "minimal" differences in angles absolutely can be a HUGE thing for people. if "I" and looking for a guitar, "my" personal experiences with things are gonna trump the fact that you don't see how it makes that big a difference. If the OP says it's that big of a deal to him, comfort wise, then it is. Personal fit and ergonomic impact aren't the same type of thing as the empirical physics what a reverse headstock does from a few pages back.
> 
> If it wasn't clear, I actually own both an Epi LP7 AND and Omen7, I wasn't talking hypotheticals. There's NGD's for both of 'em floating around here in the older threads  Ironically, I ALSO have a (beat to hell and back) explorer that just happens to have had a top mount FR style trem installed aftermarket. I'll post pics if ya think I'm just BS'ing to try and make my point . I had ZERO issues playing the LP BEFORE I hurt my shoulder. None. And the explorer was my main guitar for a decade before I got more heavily into ERGs. NEVER had an issue with either of them until that point. I'm pretty well healed up now, and I'm back to not having issues with the shoulder positioning. I'm just conveying what my personal experiences earlier this year were with where my hand resting on the bridge and my forearm on the edge of the two guitars positioned my shoulder.



Exactly.


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## RLG167 (Sep 14, 2016)

Another reason I like TOMs over a Hipshot type is because I like to rest my palm on the tailpiece. I actually like string-through bodies more because it's just more comfortable. I assume because the guitars I learned on were like that. My second guitar, the one I really learned on, was an LTD M-10 (probably also where my love of reversed headstocks came from  ) and that has a TOM string-through


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## Mike Jones (Sep 21, 2016)

Funny, the hipshot fixed bridge is really comfortable for palm muting, and we feed the strings through the body with them or the TOM.


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## RLG167 (Sep 21, 2016)

I was at a guitar clinic this past weekend and played an ESP Custom Shop Horizon 7, and I was hesitant at first because of the hipshot bridge and no neck angle, but it's easily the most comfortable guitar I've played. So I think I'm starting to like hipshot and no neck angle maybe?


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## mnemonic (Sep 21, 2016)

the quality and setup do help a ton, and being an ESP custom shop, it ought to be top-notch in both departments. I can't remember now what guitars you've played that have no neck angle that you didn't like, so that may have been a factor in the past. 

I'm a big fan of my Les Paul, and with its neck angle, TOM bridge, and the whole proportions of the guitar, its a lot different from one of my strats, but i'm perfectly happy playing either one, as long as I take a minute to adjust to the way it sits, and the way I hold it.


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## purpledc (Sep 22, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I was at a guitar clinic this past weekend and played an ESP Custom Shop Horizon 7, and I was hesitant at first because of the hipshot bridge and no neck angle, but it's easily the most comfortable guitar I've played. So I think I'm starting to like hipshot and no neck angle maybe?



That's odd. Both my esp neckthroughs have neck angle built into their construction. Are you sure the esp was flat?


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## RLG167 (Sep 22, 2016)

purpledc said:


> That's odd. Both my esp neckthroughs have neck angle built into their construction. Are you sure the esp was flat?



http://axepalace.com/guitars/esp/custom-shop/esp-cs-horizon7-ss.html
Now it has Fishman Fluence Moderns, and while I've been an EMG player for years now, there's a feel to the Fishman pups that I just can't go back to my EMG's now.


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## purpledc (Sep 24, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> http://axepalace.com/guitars/esp/custom-shop/esp-cs-horizon7-ss.html
> Now it has Fishman Fluence Moderns, and while I've been an EMG player for years now, there's a feel to the Fishman pups that I just can't go back to my EMG's now.



Ok, but I dont see anything that said it was built with 0 neck angle. And pictures really aren't going to show the degree of angle we are talking about.


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## RLG167 (Sep 25, 2016)

purpledc said:


> Ok, but I dont see anything that said it was built with 0 neck angle. And pictures really aren't going to show the degree of angle we are talking about.



I played it for more than 45 mins, trust me, it had a 0 angle. It was a custom order, maybe that was one of the specs was a 0 neck angle


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## purpledc (Sep 25, 2016)

RLG167 said:


> I played it for more than 45 mins, trust me, it had a 0 angle. It was a custom order, maybe that was one of the specs was a 0 neck angle



I'm sorry man. I'm not convinced. I would think if that were the case and that axe palace decided to have a guitar made specifically for them as an exclusive with 0 neck angle that it would be in the description. Many don't care. But if someone went out of the way to specifically order it that way instead of the way they always do it then someone did in fact care and it would or at least should be noted in the description. In fact looking at the pictures again and seeing that the fret board seems to be perfectly in line and parallel with the forward slope of the archtop it almost certainly indicates it has a neck angle incorporated into the build.


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 25, 2016)

Are the guitars you've played hipshot hardtail and neck through. There's really not much room for neck angle with a bridge as shallow as a hipshot. The pictures on the axe palace don't give a good viewing angle, but it doesn't look like there is one... And if there is, it's not by much.

In order to have neck angle with a hipshot you'd have to crank the saddles pretty high.

Now that I'm looking at my E-II bass though, there appears to be a very slight angle despite being a short bridge. (though it's bolt on so not entirely a good comparison.) I'm gonna guess that the guitar has a smaller angle, and that angle (especially one so shallow) makes very little difference in the feel to one with a straight angled neck. There's also the possibility that it was never the neck angle he didn't like, and it was something more significant like neck profile or joint or something.


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## exo (Sep 25, 2016)

The flusher a bridge is with the surface of the body, the less angle is needed.

It's not unusual AT ALL for there to be no neck angle on guitars that don't have TOM style bridges. Recessed floyds, standard OG trems and hard tails......non of this things require a neck angle becaus the strings come off the bridge low enough in relation to the end of the fretboard that a neck angle will take the strings TOO low by the time you get to 17-24 feet area.

A little Google-fu of the phrase "Floyd rose neck angle" will give a wealth of information on the subject.


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## purpledc (Sep 25, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4649510 said:


> Are the guitars you've played hipshot hardtail and neck through. There's really not much room for neck angle with a bridge as shallow as a hipshot. The pictures on the axe palace don't give a good viewing angle, but it doesn't look like there is one... And if there is, it's not by much.
> 
> In order to have neck angle with a hipshot you'd have to crank the saddles pretty high.
> 
> Now that I'm looking at my E-II bass though, there appears to be a very slight angle despite being a short bridge. (though it's bolt on so not entirely a good comparison.) I'm gonna guess that the guitar has a smaller angle, and that angle (especially one so shallow) makes very little difference in the feel to one with a straight angled neck. There's also the possibility that it was never the neck angle he didn't like, and it was something more significant like neck profile or joint or something.




not by much is still more than nothing which was my point. And most neckthroughs don't have a tremendous amount of neck angle but most of them do. And it would also depend on which hipshot was installed on the guitar. They make it in two heights.



exo said:


> The flusher a bridge is with the surface of the body, the less angle is needed.
> 
> It's not unusual AT ALL for there to be no neck angle on guitars that don't have TOM style bridges. Recessed floyds, standard OG trems and hard tails......non of this things require a neck angle becaus the strings come off the bridge low enough in relation to the end of the fretboard that a neck angle will take the strings TOO low by the time you get to 17-24 feet area.
> 
> A little Google-fu of the phrase "Floyd rose neck angle" will give a wealth of information on the subject.




It has nothing to do with how flush the bridge is. It depends on how tall the bridge is. Flush is how close the base of the bridge is to the body. With a hard tail the bridges are nearly always flush to the body. The height will depend on which hipshot was used on the guitar. And it is unusual if the company is known to always build their guitars with some degree of neck angle into the construction.


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## Señor Voorhees (Sep 25, 2016)

The second half of the post of mine you quoted was me sort of flip flopping, as I picked up my bass that had a shallow bridge but still an angle. I was basically saying you were right, though I still don't know what difference it makes if it has 0 angle and 1 degree angle.

As for your response to exo, you're just arguing semantics. We all know full well that he meant string height at the bridge. Hell, most of what you're arguing is semantics. No angle vs. negligible angle the point remains... The way the guitar plays won't feel different.


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## purpledc (Sep 25, 2016)

Señor Voorhees;4649524 said:


> The second half of the post of mine you quoted was me sort of flip flopping, as I picked up my bass that had a shallow bridge but still an angle. I was basically saying you were right, though I still don't know what difference it makes if it has 0 angle and 1 degree angle.
> 
> As for your response to exo, you're just arguing semantics. We all know full well that he meant string height at the bridge. Hell, most of what you're arguing is semantics. No angle vs. negligible angle the point remains... The way the guitar plays won't feel different.



Sorry. I read it. But i also wasnt trying to be a dick either. I was just touching on certain points of what you said in regards to hipshot bridges. But to answer your question there really isnt a huge difference. Hell there isnt really a difference between my les paul and my esps. Which is why I said my point wasnt about the amount of neck angle but rather if it existed at all in any amount. I am not the best communicator as I often leave emotion out of my consideration when responding and many take this as me being abrasive when its not my intent. I am the type of person that looks at whether something is factual or not. So even if it was a half a degree, if it was intentional on the makers part then that is what I look at whether i can see it or feel it. No harm intended.


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## exo (Sep 25, 2016)

purpledc said:


> not by much is still more than nothing which was my point. And most neckthroughs don't have a tremendous amount of neck angle but most of them do. And it would also depend on which hipshot was installed on the guitar. They make it in two heights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Semantics. Flushness helps determine string height, since it's a facet of the overall height of the bridge in relation to the fretboard. You know what I'm getting at. Jeeze.......


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## purpledc (Sep 26, 2016)

exo said:


> Semantics. Flushness helps determine string height, since it's a facet of the overall height of the bridge in relation to the fretboard. You know what I'm getting at. Jeeze.......



I know what you are getting at yes now that you have explained it. But no its not semantics. You are either right or you are wrong. If I said you adjust your action by turning the truss rod it would be an inaccurate statement even though a neck adjustment would change the orientation of the strings to the fretboard. I don't think people should be excused for using improper terminology if it is in fact incorrect no matter if I know what they are getting at or not. Because being in the beginners section people with less knowledge than you or I will look at it, get the wrong idea and go off on their merry way repeating what you said and someone else is surely going to correct them. I'm sorry you disagree. But that is how I feel. But you are still incorrect. Flushness does not determine string height on a hardtail bridge. The actual height of the bridge and/or its saddle range determines height. Have you ever in your life seen anyone mount a hardtail anything but flush to the body? I think I have seen someone recess one once or twice but I haven't seen anyone float one. Thus in most cases its always mounted flush and that has nothing to do with the height of the strings. When you need to adjust the action on a hipshot would you go grab some washers or shims and raise the bridge or would you turn a screw on a saddle? You say semantics, I say I'm simply stating facts.


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## exo (Sep 26, 2016)

purpledc said:


> I know what you are getting at yes now that you have explained it. But no its not semantics. You are either right or you are wrong. If I said you adjust your action by turning the truss rod it would be an inaccurate statement even though a neck adjustment would change the orientation of the strings to the fretboard. I don't think people should be excused for using improper terminology if it is in fact incorrect no matter if I know what they are getting at or not. Because being in the beginners section people with less knowledge than you or I will look at it, get the wrong idea and go off on their merry way repeating what you said and someone else is surely going to correct them. I'm sorry you disagree. But that is how I feel. But you are still incorrect. Flushness does not determine string height on a hardtail bridge. The actual height of the bridge and/or its saddle range determines height. Have you ever in your life seen anyone mount a hardtail anything but flush to the body? I think I have seen someone recess one once or twice but I haven't seen anyone float one. Thus in most cases its always mounted flush and that has nothing to do with the height of the strings. When you need to adjust the action on a hipshot would you go grab some washers or shims and raise the bridge or would you turn a screw on a saddle? You say semantics, I say I'm simply stating facts.




Yeah, not looking to argue crap with you, but you're being more than a little pedantic. Flushness of the bridge helps determine height of the strings. you run a TOM all the way down the studs so it sits flush, you bring the strings flusher to the body. You run the studs down on a trem system, it brings the strings flusher to the body. You run the saddles flush on a hard tail........yards yadda yadda. you're simply using terminology in a slightly different manner than I, which is EXACTLY what a semantic arguement is. Enough is enough. Good grief.........


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## Chokey Chicken (Sep 26, 2016)

Oh oh! I like pointless debate! To further argue semantics how about this! Technically, the more flush the saddles are to the body, the less height there is to the strings! If the strimg saddles are completely "flush" with the body (ie: no gap), then the strings would touch the body. Tune-o-matic saddles are very much less flush with the body than a hipshot or any other flat mount bridge. 

This thread has gotten so ridiculous it's hilarious. None of this means anything to anyone.


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## purpledc (Sep 26, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> Oh oh! I like pointless debate! To further argue semantics how about this! Technically, the more flush the saddles are to the body, the less height there is to the strings! If the strimg saddles are completely "flush" with the body (ie: no gap), then the strings would touch the body. Tune-o-matic saddles are very much less flush with the body than a hipshot or any other flat mount bridge.
> 
> This thread has gotten so ridiculous it's hilarious. None of this means anything to anyone.



But what if you take a die grinder and grind the saddles flush with the rest of the bridge? Is that a double flush? 



exo said:


> Yeah, not looking to argue crap with you, but you're being more than a little pedantic. Flushness of the bridge helps determine height of the strings. you run a TOM all the way down the studs so it sits flush, you bring the strings flusher to the body. You run the studs down on a trem system, it brings the strings flusher to the body. You run the saddles flush on a hard tail........yards yadda yadda. you're simply using terminology in a slightly different manner than I, which is EXACTLY what a semantic arguement is. Enough is enough. Good grief.........



The first sentence is correct. Again if you don't want to argue then why continue? I'm not denying that I am using terminology in a different way. But that is also the correct way. But like you I am done. If you want to create another post being upset with me pointing that out fine but I wont be responding. I can live with you having the last word whatever that may be.


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## feraledge (Sep 26, 2016)

Chokey Chicken said:


> This thread has gotten so ridiculous it's hilarious. None of this means anything to anyone.


 
Correction: this thread has always been ridiculous.


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