# Holdsworthian Legato Technique?



## Pooluke41 (Feb 6, 2012)

I've been trying to get Holdsworth's legato technique down but It's incredibly hard as I can't find any videos that aren't just technical wankery (*cough*cough* Marshall Harrison...) and actually show how to do it...

I've already seen some threads on this here but they didn't really help.

If anyone has any insight on this it would be appreciated!

And if anyone has some licks that sound great with this style they'd also be loved here as well.

EDIT: If it helps, right now I'm just going up and down the major scale and other three note per string scales.


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## Zonk Knuckle (Feb 6, 2012)

I'm not sure if you already know. But, he doesn't do pull-offs. So, from low to high's the easy part, then from high to low, lift your finger from the highest note while hammering on the next lower one. That's the basics of it.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 6, 2012)

I take it to be more like playing a piano than a guitar when descending in that you're just constantly hammering on.

I'm working on learning to do it as well and the way I look at it right now is like this... You know how people tap their fingers on a desk when they have random nervous energy? They tend to tap them sequentially moving eithe from pinky to index or index to pinky. I tend to go pinky to index rather than the other way around. So something that might be worth a try is to tap on a desk sequentially that way and conditionly add in/take out fingers and see if you can get the general motion of it that way.

Or you could just practice descending runs all day where you ONLY hammer the notes. This is tough and frustrating as hell, but it'll proably work eventually if you have the drive to stick with it. Rusty Cooley suggests trying to legato sweep patterns which is also hard as fuck, but trying something like that might actually make legato scale runs seem a little easier. I try doing both when I can.

The hardest part about it is trying to tell myself NOT to do any pull offs as I've gotten quite proficient playing legato that way.

Hope that helped.


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## Pooluke41 (Feb 6, 2012)

Zonk Knuckle said:


> lift your finger from the highest note while hammering on the next lower one. That's the basics of it.



Yeah I know that there's no pull-offs but that synchronising is a bitch... 

It's harder than trying to string a floyd thats pushed into the cavity and is not blocked...


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 6, 2012)

Another exercise... I'm not sure how much this will help *directly* with your legato but it WILL strengthen your fingers and/or increase your finger dexterity...

Lay your hand flat out on a table. Then try lifting your first and third finger simultaneously while leaving fingers 2 and 4 down. Then try lifting fingers 2 and 4 while leaving fingers 1 and 3 down. Then see how quickly you can switch between these.

It's going to be hard as hell at first since certain fingers seem to naturally want to move in unison, but if you can kind of get this down it will totally strengthen your hand and lower your fingers' dependency on adjacent fingers which may ultimately help you learn this technique.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 6, 2012)

First thing to note is that Allan very rarely plays 3 n.p.s scales. If you are fortunate enough to be able to find a copy of his instructional video then you'll see him demonstrate a scale using 4 n.p.s and furthermore his approach transcends the scales and arpeggios that a line may consist of as he's viewing a series of connected intervals much in the same way Mr Verheyen might do (idiosyncrasies of technique aside).

Here's a link to a Scribd document which accompanies a particularly good video covering some Holdworth-esque licks - you can find excerpts from the Video on YouTube I believe:

Alessandro Giglioli - Suonare nello stile di Allan Holdsworth

Also worth noting that he uses very light strings and an extremely low action coupled with a flat radius guitar (well 20" + ) to ease the workload on his hands which admittedly are gigantic. For further ideas I can suggest checking out Deryl Gabel of whom Allan was quoted as saying "It's like looking into a mirror".

Other than that, the above is all good advice.


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## Alberto7 (Feb 6, 2012)

The above is sound advice. I've been trying to do this for a while, and I've gotten a bit better at it, but I still pretty much suck . I'm not going to repeat any of the advice that's already been given to you, but I will contribute this video:



Go to 1:35 for the Holdsworth legato technique (but I highly, HIGHLY suggest you watch the entire video). I learned more about the technique from that video than from any other I've seen. That video by itself made me improve my overall technique. The Holdsworth legato is very useful and helpful, even if you don't intend to ever use it in your writing.


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## bey0ndreaz0n (Feb 7, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Lay your hand flat out on a table. Then try lifting your first and third finger simultaneously while leaving fingers 2 and 4 down. Then try lifting fingers 2 and 4 while leaving fingers 1 and 3 down. Then see how quickly you can switch between these.


 
I do this (but on the fretboard ofcourse), and try doing as many combinations as I can think of, without lifting the other fingers. A good test is to have all 4 fingers in an angular position, keep all fingers fretted and lift up on finger at a time, allowing the other finger's notes to ring out.



ShadyDavey said:


> Here's a link to a Scribd document which accompanies a particularly good video covering some Holdworth-esque licks - you can find excerpts from the Video on YouTube I believe:
> 
> Alessandro Giglioli - Suonare nello stile di Allan Holdsworth
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for that link. Plus have you ever got hold of Deryl's dvds?


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 7, 2012)

I've got 5 or 6 of them - Cool Legato Phrases, CLP2, Sweeping, Pentatonics, Outside playing, Creative Tapping, Supersonic Sweeping...he sent me a load to review when I was running a (sadly defunct) reviews website. All of his releases are terrific both in terms of instructional content and value for money....they all feature extensive .pdf's, GP files, BiAB files and the DVD themselves....but do be warned he's a monstrous player 

The Marshall Harrison ideas are very cool but his instructional videos on YT leave a lot to be desired. Allegedly he's a lot different in person (and I have a couple of his .pdf's which are mind-blowing) but if you're looking for "how to" along with some licks and accompanying harmonic content I would recommend Deryl any day of the week.


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## JazzandMetal (Feb 7, 2012)

Some great stuff here. I have been been just hammering on, doing pentatonics. It sounds really cool.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 7, 2012)

Just reviewed Allan's VHS Video and there's a distinct dearth of legato practice ideas - in fact while he does cover scales in depth he provides (IIRC) 2 examples of how he views them from a technical perspective.

The first is simply from the lowest possible note on the guitar to the highest (as I mentioned) the second is a simple example of how he approaches a Cmajor scale in terms of breaking up the notes and he does stress that you need to remove yourself from 3 n.p.s patterns as it can lock you into certain positions - play the intervals and notes you wish to hear over a progression rather than licks by rote. 

Best advice is simply to get a guitar that won't hold you back and get to practising


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## Tymon (Feb 7, 2012)

The best piece of advice I ever got on legato and which worked miracles for me is this:

Practice over a simple backing track or metronome and keep playing straight 4ths, 8ths or 16th notes, nonstop. No rests, no rhythmic deviations, just completely straight.

Start out slowly, way slower than you're currently able to squeeze out your legato runs. And try and actually play *melodies* instead of scalar runs. Use string skipping, sequenced ideas, pentatonics, 2 or 3 or 4 note per string ideas, everything you can think of to create melodies that sound interesting to you.

Again, start out slowly and practice it for 15 minutes straight a day. Very soon you'll notice your fingers start feeling "free" and you can actually play interesting melodies instead of just running through your scales. Speed will come eventually, without really having to work for it. At least, that's how it worked for me.

The strictly hammer-ons method can be used, and in time will actually be easier as far as finger independence goes. But you can also choose to go for a mix of hammer-ons and pull-offs. I'm somewhere in between with my own technique.

[lame advertisement] You can always take some lessons through bandhappy.com where I'll explain it in more detail. [/lame advertisement]


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 7, 2012)

^ That playing melodies thing is a good call. And it's HARD AS SHIT. Cooley talks about trying to play arpeggio patterns legato. Tough shit it is... 

But if it doesn't kill you (I don't even think it can! ) it'll make you stronger!


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## Pooluke41 (Feb 7, 2012)

Tymon said:


> The best piece of advice I ever got on legato and which worked miracles for me is this:
> 
> Practice over a simple backing track or metronome and keep playing straight 4ths, 8ths or 16th notes, nonstop. No rests, no rhythmic deviations, just completely straight.
> 
> ...



Tymon, you have made my day.

Exivious are amazing.


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## penguin_316 (Feb 7, 2012)

I've played guitar for going on 12 years and this is really hard haha...humbling to say the least. Guess it's time to practice this at work haha.



Konfyouzd said:


> Another exercise... I'm not sure how much this will help *directly* with your legato but it WILL strengthen your fingers and/or increase your finger dexterity...
> 
> Lay your hand flat out on a table. Then try lifting your first and third finger simultaneously while leaving fingers 2 and 4 down. Then try lifting fingers 2 and 4 while leaving fingers 1 and 3 down. Then see how quickly you can switch between these.
> 
> It's going to be hard as hell at first since certain fingers seem to naturally want to move in unison, but if you can kind of get this down it will totally strengthen your hand and lower your fingers' dependency on adjacent fingers which may ultimately help you learn this technique.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 7, 2012)

^ It's hard as hell. My ex gf told me about that exercise. She says her uncle is a professional musician and he practices stuff like that.


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 7, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ It's hard as hell. My ex gf told me about that exercise. She says her uncle is a professional musician and he practices stuff like that.





Check out a lot of the exercises that Pianists do sans instrument - I'm told there's a goldmine of material for the raiding.


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 7, 2012)

Never thought of that. I'll ask my keys player. He seems to have rather dextrous fingers... You know... In a non-homo-erotic way...


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 7, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Never thought of that. I'll ask my keys player. He seems to have rather dextrous fingers... You know... In a non-homo-erotic way...





By all means do! I'll have a look around the internet and see what I can dredge up. There was a thread a while back that had all sorts of rehabilitative regimes and devices for hand/finger recuperation/strengthening which may also be worth a look. Greg Irwin's "Finger Fitness" contains some very useful exercises IIRC but the best way to increase facility with Legato is.....well.....playing Legato


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 7, 2012)

^ Oh that's right. You went through some hand issues a while ago didn't you?


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## Cabinet (Feb 7, 2012)

So I'm really sitting down and trying to get the descending hammer ons idea down. I've found my biggest problems so far are my index finger doesn't hit the note fast enough so it loses dynamic consistency, I guess that's because I'm too used to doing pull offs 
My second problem is that my high E string is really making my life miserable trying to play like this


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 7, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ Oh that's right. You went through some hand issues a while ago didn't you?



I did!

It's better than I expected but now I don't play it's conversely stronger (through weight training and so forth) but also absolutely stupid and lacking in dexterity. That said however I certainly feel some of the exercises without guitar (those piano-style finger-twisters, the "Finger Fitness" books, grip-masters) paid off in regaining some function in my pinky.


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## fretninjadave (Feb 7, 2012)

This was very informative for me. maybe it will help you too.


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## Tymon (Feb 8, 2012)

fretninjadave said:


> This was very informative for me. maybe it will help you too.




He has to work on his muting a little... his attitude just invites criticism haha


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## Pooluke41 (Feb 8, 2012)

fretninjadave said:


> This was very informative for me. maybe it will help you too.




I tried that and I couldn't learn through all the wankery..


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## ShadyDavey (Feb 8, 2012)

As I mentioned he is allegedly far easier to understand in person. He has got a metric tonne of chops but I just wish he's chill out sometimes.....that said some of the transcriptions would make good exercises....I'll see what I can dig out


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## Konfyouzd (Feb 8, 2012)

Pooluke41 said:


> I tried that and I couldn't learn through all the wankery..



Isn't the exact dude you said you didn't like, OP? 

This guy comes off really pretentious for not being Allan himself.

"See that? See how it sounds? THAT'S legato..."

Ya don't say...


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## Pooluke41 (Feb 9, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> Isn't the exact dude you said you didn't like, OP?
> 
> This guy comes off really pretentious for not being Allan himself.
> 
> ...



Yep, I find him unbearable.


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## groovemasta (Feb 9, 2012)

A tip of advice that may help you is like others have said put your hand on a desk with your fingers curled and try to lift individual fingers. A problem I had when descending was with my ring finger not being strong enough to produce a consistent tone and move independently.
Another way to strengthen it if you find you have this problem is put your fingers on one string then on the finger you want to work on without lifting the others hammeron and pull off the string below, this works pretty well. Hope I was clear enough.


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## Enselmis (Feb 9, 2012)

Do whatever Tom Quayle does. I'll take his legato over holdsworth or harrison any day.


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## Alberto7 (Feb 10, 2012)

Enselmis said:


> Do whatever Tom Quayle does. I'll take his legato over holdsworth or harrison any day.




While I agree that Mr. Quayle's sound and playing is as gracious as the most beautiful swan, the Holdsworth legato technique is still something I believe everybody would want to learn... It just improves overall playing.


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## Enselmis (Feb 10, 2012)

Alberto7 said:


> While I agree that Mr. Quayle's sound and playing is as gracious as the most beautiful swan, the Holdsworth legato technique is still something I believe everybody would want to learn... It just improves overall playing.



I was under the impression they were at least similar. As far as playing goes, I actually prefer Tom Quayle. Sometimes I feel like Holdsworth just plays notes for the sake of playing notes.


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## Alberto7 (Feb 10, 2012)

Enselmis said:


> I was under the impression they were at least similar. As far as playing goes, I actually prefer Tom Quayle. Sometimes I feel like Holdsworth just plays notes for the sake of playing notes.



I'm pretty sure that Quayle uses the 'normal' legato that everyone uses. But yeah, like you, I much prefer to listen to Tom. It just appeals more to me. I don't think that Holdsworth plays notes for the heck of it; I just think that my ears are not accustomed to his strange note selection. I do think he has very good reasons to play the notes he plays, but my ears just don't grasp it... Yet .


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## morrowcosom (Feb 18, 2012)

In reference to that Guthrie Govan video earlier in the thread: Besides low action, how does he manage to get such a clear, pronounced legato sound with hardly any gain?


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## Solodini (Feb 19, 2012)

Finger strength, precision in finger placement and practise.


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## Fiction (Feb 19, 2012)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ It's hard as hell. My ex gf told me about that exercise. She says her uncle is a professional musician and he practices stuff like that.



I used to do some of the exercises from this guy everyday;



(note: its like a 10 video series)

Greg Irwin, does some insane finger stuff. Start slow, and after about 5 minutes your hands will start to get sort of warm and the joints will feel fairly loose and free. It feels awesome, I did it for Cardistry stuff, but I don't do that anymore, but I did notice it helped with guitar as well.


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## Alberto7 (Feb 19, 2012)

^ That Greg Irwin dude is an alien. What he does with his fingers is freaking impossible hahaha I'm liking those exercises.



morrowcosom said:


> In reference to that Guthrie Govan video earlier in the thread: Besides low action, how does he manage to get such a clear, pronounced legato sound with hardly any gain?



The man's been playing since he's like 3 years old and he's quite a genius... Go figure if he can't do anything on the guitar haha. Seriously though, Solodini said it. He's just extremely accurate and must have a lot of finger strength. Only practice gives you those traits.


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## Fiction (Feb 19, 2012)

I actually started doing them again, I love the feeling after the exercises. Good thing is you can do it at school or what not, just mindlessly user the table, or watching the tv.


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## pedromrls (Dec 4, 2015)

This guy has a thing here, I like his muting a lot and his clean legato technique that even though he doesn't use the wide range intervals into his improv. it sounds very fluid.


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## wizbit81 (Dec 4, 2015)

Guys I did do lessons on this topic on this very forum you know...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT9kJ0SLK1Q

^^ Me playing Holdsworth


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiinfI7lOQY

^^ Me breaking down Holdsworth

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjF7Hpbi43g

^^ Me playing Holdsworth again but ....ing up in the middle 

If you want specific tips on how to play legato like that I did one on legato too. It's also not true to say Holdsworth hammers on everything, you can clearly hear that tell-tale waah of pulls in there too. He's just totally free of conscious technique is all, having total control of his note choice and letting his brain and ear dictate what he plays. For me that's the ultimate, never mind a specific technique.


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## Maniacal (Dec 7, 2015)

Good playing ^


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