# Men -vs Women. The guitarist's view..



## Ckackley (Jun 24, 2009)

I guess this is the place to put this .. 

My wife and I were chatting this morning about the sex drive of men vs that of women. Being the guitar addict I am I came up with the following comparison.

"Men are like a Marshall stack. Plug in and go. The sound will be decent enough however it's set. Women are more like a computer based effects processor. You have to twiddle with some knobs and go back and forth on some settings, maybe EQ it a good bit. But , when it's all said and done it's totally worth it."


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## ralphy1976 (Jun 24, 2009)

AND SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT?!!!!

if she did, keep her, she's a winner!!!!


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 24, 2009)




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## cycloptopus (Jun 24, 2009)

ralphy1976 said:


> AND SHE UNDERSTOOD THAT?!!!!
> 
> if she did, keep her, she's a winner!!!!




Yeah dude, great analogy, just don't tell HER that!!

You might want to try the analogy with shoes, or something that she digs...


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 24, 2009)

win


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## Ckackley (Jun 24, 2009)

She understood it. 

This is the same girl that bought me an amp for fathers day a few years ago and a 5 string bass for Christmas .


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 24, 2009)

^ you and scar symmetry have exemplary women... you should get them together to teach a "how to please your man" class


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## silentrage (Jun 24, 2009)

Women are like mesas, all the knobs don't do what they say they do, some do the same thing as others, some don't do anything at all, and you have to set them all right before any kind of enjoyment can come out of it. 
And the next day when you fire it up with the same settings, it might sound like shit again.


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## Ckackley (Jun 24, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Women are like mesas, all the knobs don't do what they say they do, some do the same thing as others, some don't do anything at all, and you have to set them all right before any kind of enjoyment can come out of it.
> And the next day when you fire it up with the same settings, it might sound like shit again.




Awesome


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## renzoip (Jun 24, 2009)

Ckackley said:


> I guess this is the place to put this ..
> 
> My wife and I were chatting this morning about the sex drive of men vs that of women. Being the guitar addict I am I came up with the following comparison.
> 
> "Men are like a Marshall stack. Plug in and go. The sound will be decent enough however it's set. Women are more like a computer based effects processor. You have to twiddle with some knobs and go back and forth on some settings, maybe EQ it a good bit. But , when it's all said and done it's totally worth it."



Lol, I thought I was the only one who made analogies like that!


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## budda (Jun 24, 2009)

i know my gf would get the gist, but that's it.. then again, I guess that's all she needs to get haha.


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## scottro202 (Jun 24, 2009)

haha. I've made those sort of analogies before, unfortunately they're mostly off-the-cuff and can't remember any of them 

dude, keep your girl man!!! o, and...


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 24, 2009)

Men = 6505

Women = Roadking


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## MTech (Jun 24, 2009)

So where do you go to get updates?


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## silentrage (Jun 24, 2009)

Automatically of course, but the updates change all the parameters and render your previous patches useless. They come every month.


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## leandroab (Jun 24, 2009)

so perfect ahahhaha



Konfyouzd said:


> ^ you and scar symmetry have exemplary women... you should get them together to teach a "how to please your man" class



word


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## Rick (Jun 24, 2009)

silentrage said:


> Automatically of course, but the updates change all the parameters and render your previous patches useless. They come every day.



That's better.


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## budda (Jun 24, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Men = 6505
> 
> Women = Roadking



no, epi valve jr vs RK.


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## Rick (Jun 24, 2009)

^


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## Variant (Jun 24, 2009)

Women are like a good pedalbaord, you line a bunch of them up and step on them, they make different noises. 



Wait... yeah, I don't know where I was going with this.


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## Rick (Jun 24, 2009)




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## Ketzer (Jun 24, 2009)

Variant said:


> Women are like a good pedalbaord, you line a bunch of them up and step on them, they make different noises.
> 
> 
> 
> Wait... yeah, I don't know where I was going with this.





All the way to the bank. Maybe the courtroom.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 25, 2009)

budda said:


> no, epi valve jr vs RK.



lolwut?

that's not giving us men anywhere near enough credit!

6505 is the least we deserve I feel


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## ralphy1976 (Jun 25, 2009)

Ckackley said:


> She understood it.
> 
> This is the same girl that bought me an amp for fathers day a few years ago and a 5 string bass for Christmas .


 
like i have said : she is a gem, cherish her

i thin i have found one just like yours too...well you know what i mean!!!


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## budda (Jun 25, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> lolwut?
> 
> that's not giving us men anywhere near enough credit!
> 
> 6505 is the least we deserve I feel



still too many knobs.. Plexi/JCM800 would be the best we could do, and that wouldn't include most guys lol.

As far as the sex drive goes? we're the epiphone - doesn't take much of anything to get us going.


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## cycloptopus (Jun 25, 2009)

Ckackley said:


> She understood it.
> 
> This is the same girl that bought me an amp for fathers day a few years ago and a 5 string bass for Christmas .


Dude, marry her...AGAIN!!!


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## sami (Jun 25, 2009)

The few females that hang on this board are  at the lot of ya'll right now


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## Valserp (Jun 25, 2009)

Women are probably like transistor amps - they only sound good at bedroom levels.

Edit: How's about a transvestites=modelling amps punchline?


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 25, 2009)

@ sami


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 25, 2009)

sami said:


> The few females that hang on this board are  at the lot of ya'll right now



they should be glad it's not the 50s anymore


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 25, 2009)

^ i know i am...


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 25, 2009)




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## s_k_mullins (Jun 25, 2009)

hilarious analogies..

I heard one similar from a stand-up comedian.. but its not guitar related.

The comedian said that turning on a guy is like driving a car.. its simple, cuz all you have to do is get us started up and grab hold of our gearshift and you're on your way...
A woman on the other hand is like walking into the cockpit of a fucking 747... there are too many things to press and things to twist, and you got no fucking clue which one actually turns it on


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 25, 2009)

men and women are just separate forms of crazy. 

men say tha women are crazy and women say that men are crazy... so that means we both have to be fuckin' nuts and we tend to only exacerbate the problem due to our inability to understand our respective forms of insanity.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 25, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> men and women are just separate forms of crazy.
> 
> men say tha women are crazy and women say that men are crazy... so that means we both have to be fuckin' nuts and we tend to only exacerbate the problem due to our inability to understand our respective forms of insanity.



traitor! 

or it means that only one of us is right and I think it's likely to be men as we are more logical thinkers 

sorry I forgot this was in The Lounge 

no in seriousness neither are better/worse. I find men easier to get on with but that's because I'm a guy and other guys have the same interests as me.

I'm sure if I was a girl ugh:?) I would find it easier to get on with girls as we would share the same interests


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## cycloptopus (Jun 26, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I'm sure if I was a girl ugh:?) I would find it easier to get on with girls as we would share the same interests


 Nah, you'd just get into cat fights and be all jealous of other chicks. But on the surface you'd be so nice...


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 26, 2009)

not all girls are like that you know...


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## cycloptopus (Jun 26, 2009)

Scar Symmetry said:


> not all girls are like that you know...




Yeah, I know. My current girl is well adjusted with a great core of genuine friends. 

But you know, it just seems to be rare with that breed...


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 26, 2009)

yeah so is mine.

agreed!


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## scottro202 (Jun 26, 2009)

lets compare girls and guys by rigs:

girls:






guys:


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## Ketzer (Jun 26, 2009)

lol eric johnson.


He's such a wonderful guitarist, but does he really NEED all that stuff? Tell him to get an Axe-FX.


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## reptillion (Jun 28, 2009)

/thread


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## JBroll (Jun 28, 2009)

Guys, even Plexis are too complicated.

The solution is clearly the Marshall mini-amps - the good ones are 25cm tall (and the others just try to be louder to compensate), they don't deal well with power outlets, there are only a few knobs, and *women never fucking listen to them anyway*.

Jeff


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## sol niger 333 (Jun 28, 2009)

I think there is a vulnerability to a womans approach to music that many men could never fathom let alone understand or replicate. However more often than not their motor skills are no where near up to par with mens (in general and statistically speaking) just ask a woman to throw a ball and that fact is obvious. There is a reason why all my favourite technical or heavy musicians are men (drummers, guitarists, singers etc) yet some of my favourite emotionally driven musicians are women. (singer songwriters, pianists, cello, violinists etc). And please don't say "Kitty" can metal it out just as well as the rest because... they cant.

Oops I took the title of the thread literally and posted something thoughtful. Cheers for the negative feedback JBroll. Ummm hows this.. Guys are like gibsons with one pickup and girls are like fenders with more dials and more complicated huh huh duh huh huh.


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## JBroll (Jun 29, 2009)

Thoughtful... right. Nevermind that men are frequently outperformed on fine motor skills, ignore the fact that women have no trouble at all playing violin one parts in orchestras around the world (where they aren't outright banned, as in Vienna Philharmonic for 'aesthetic reasons'...), let's just generalize and pretend we have statistics behind it..

Jeff


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## troyguitar (Jun 29, 2009)

It's Kittie


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## All_¥our_Bass (Jun 29, 2009)

Ketzer said:


> lol eric johnson.
> 
> 
> She's such a wonderful guitarist, but does she really NEED all that stuff? Tell her to get an Axe-FX.


Fixed. 

I myself, also prefer a more... 'feminine' rig setup.



JBroll said:


> Thoughtful... right. Nevermind that men are frequently outperformed on fine motor skills, ignore the fact that women have no trouble at all playing violin one parts in orchestras around the world (where they aren't outright banned, as in Vienna Philharmonic for 'aesthetic reasons'...), let's just generalize and pretend we have statistics behind it..
> 
> Jeff


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## sol niger 333 (Jun 29, 2009)

JBroll said:


> Thoughtful... right. Nevermind that men are frequently outperformed on fine motor skills, ignore the fact that women have no trouble at all playing violin one parts in orchestras around the world (where they aren't outright banned, as in Vienna Philharmonic for 'aesthetic reasons'...), let's just generalize and pretend we have statistics behind it..
> 
> Jeff



Well thats much better than just neg repping someone. This would have been a much better approach and was what I was after in the first place. A discussion from your point of view. Nevermind mate.

But for the record it was just my opinion. If women are better than men with motor skills then why are things non strength related, like world snooker championships, Badminton, table tennis, ( I could go on forever) not mixed sex competitions? Answer: because the women would get smoked and there would be no initiative to even bother competing. My favourite musicians from a technicality and strength perspective are men. Not because I'm gay but because they are better. Show me a chick drummer who can hit as hard as and groove like John Stanier or Josh Freese and I'll eat my hat. Show me a female guitarist that can give Steve Vai a run for his money and I'll eat my words. Show me a female singer who can sing with the amount of power and projection Maynard Keenan or Jens Kidman has and I'll eat my words. On the other hand show me a guy who can sing with the vulnerability and beauty of someone like Joni Mitchell and I'll eat my words. Way I see it you just enjoy the neg rep and antagonist buttons on your well worn keyboard. At least debate before you get trigger happy on the neg rep mate.


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## cycloptopus (Jun 29, 2009)

sol niger 333 said:


> Show me a female singer who can sing with the amount of power and projection Maynard Keenan or Jens Kidman has and I'll eat my words.


Dude, you ever hear 'Walls of Jericho'?

Walls Of Jericho Official Website :: The American Dream Available Now!

For the most part I agree with you, but this chick is bad as hell and will hang with any guy when it comes to balls and power. She can lay back and sing really nice too.


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## sol niger 333 (Jun 29, 2009)

cycloptopus said:


> Dude, you ever hear 'Walls of Jericho'?
> 
> Walls Of Jericho Official Website :: The American Dream Available Now!
> 
> For the most part I agree with you, but this chick is bad as hell and will hang with any guy when it comes to balls and power. She can lay back and sing really nice too.



She's freaking brutal thats for sure. Definitely the best/strongest chick metal singer I've heard by far, her clean singing is lush too. She puts many male singers to shame. The chick from Arch Enemy is brutal too. But neither her or the Walls of Jericho singer have the control or power of MJK or Jens Kidman. They are also multitracked to hell on the screamed parts.. 

Check out 4:09, that is what I meant by power and control. 



Or 7:01



However, that walls of Jericho chick seriously owns any other female metal singer I have ever heard as well as a large proportion of male metal singers. I hadn't heard her before dude she is a total bad ass.


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## silentrage (Jun 29, 2009)

sol niger 333 said:


> Well thats much better than just neg repping someone. This would have been a much better approach and was what I was after in the first place. A discussion from your point of view. Nevermind mate.
> 
> But for the record it was just my opinion. If women are better than men with motor skills then why are things non strength related, like world snooker championships, Badminton, table tennis, ( I could go on forever) not mixed sex competitions? Answer: because the women would get smoked and there would be no initiative to even bother competing. My favourite musicians from a technicality and strength perspective are men. Not because I'm gay but because they are better. Show me a chick drummer who can hit as hard as and groove like John Stanier or Josh Freese and I'll eat my hat. Show me a female guitarist that can give Steve Vai a run for his money and I'll eat my words. Show me a female singer who can sing with the amount of power and projection Maynard Keenan or Jens Kidman has and I'll eat my words. On the other hand show me a guy who can sing with the vulnerability and beauty of someone like Joni Mitchell and I'll eat my words. Way I see it you just enjoy the neg rep and antagonist buttons on your well worn keyboard. At least debate before you get trigger happy on the neg rep mate.



First of all, I'm undecided in this debate, but I'd like to point out a flaw in your argument in the interest of furthering knowledge.
You're selecting evidence from a narrow pool of data available to you, namely sports _you_ watch and guitarists _you_ listen to. 
And in order to debate whether women are better at non-strength based activities, we'll have to establish what "non-strength" is, otherwise it's moot, I can say that tennis is very much a strength based sport, or they wouldn't have to belch their intestines out with each swing of the racquet. 
I think it's very possible that men and women have the same level of muscular control and dexterity, but without some form of scrutiny, that's just an opinion.


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## JBroll (Jun 29, 2009)

I hardly get trigger happy with neg rep - you just really fucked up, period. As far as 'your opinion'... congratulations, you have an opinion not based on fact and I happen to think it's a stupid one - I get opinions too, you know - so that's no way out. 

I hardly thought I'd need explanation for that, but if you really need to be told that females aren't automatically at a huge disadvantage with fine motor skills I guess I'm not dealing with the caliber we're used to at this forum. 

There's really no point in trying to give you examples of female singers, drummers, guitarists, snooker players, beer pong champions... you're making a massive generalization with no real backing and surprised when people don't think it's 'insightful'.

Your 'opinion' was flawed, you got called out, end of discussion. It's not like I'm just attacking you for not playing along with the thread - you said something stupid with no value (humorous *or* otherwise) to the thread, and the fact that it's an opinion doesn't render you immune from response.

Jeff


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 29, 2009)

sol niger 333 said:


> I think there is a vulnerability to a womans approach to music that many men could never fathom let alone understand or replicate. However more often than not their motor skills are no where near up to par with mens (in general and statistically speaking) just ask a woman to throw a ball and that fact is obvious. There is a reason why all my favourite technical or heavy musicians are men (drummers, guitarists, singers etc) yet some of my favourite emotionally driven musicians are women. (singer songwriters, pianists, cello, violinists etc). And please don't say "Kitty" can metal it out just as well as the rest because... they cant.
> 
> Oops I took the title of the thread literally and posted something thoughtful. Cheers for the negative feedback JBroll. Ummm hows this.. Guys are like gibsons with one pickup and girls are like fenders with more dials and more complicated huh huh duh huh huh.



wow... what cave did you just crawl out of? 

no motor skills? WNBA ring a bell? those chicks are SICK...

as jeff already said, there are PLENTY of female violinists and pianists and all kinds of other instruments. 

now it may be the case that a lot of them don't choose to be shred guitarists, but that might just be something a lot of girls aren't interested in. it doesn't mean they can't do it. look up Lori Linstruth (i learned some sweet sweeping etudes from her).

their difference in physical appearance has nothing to do with their motor skills, learning ability or anything else... 

your post = fail...


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## MorbidTravis (Jun 29, 2009)

i think guys are more like a marshall 15 watt. it still sounds good and is fun to play.

girls are like 6505+, they are always loud.

but when you add alcohol guys turn into a jmc2000 with tubescreamer and ns9
girls turn into engl fireballs with a few tube screamers mic'd into the pa system. no noise suppressor.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 29, 2009)

^ 

aww... that's not fair. sometimes man + alcohol[or ego] = loud.


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## troyguitar (Jun 29, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> no motor skills? WNBA ring a bell? those chicks are SICK...
> 
> 
> your post = fail...



Bad example. The fact that the WNBA exists is based on the assertion he made which you guys are saying is wrong...


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## MorbidTravis (Jun 29, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^
> 
> aww... that's not fair. sometimes man + alcohol[or ego] = loud.



fixd


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## silentrage (Jun 29, 2009)

Female astronauts might be a better example, from what I understand you have to be truly exemplary, both physically and intellectually, to be an astronaut.


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## liamh (Jun 29, 2009)

Pff, if a man is any amp it's the Dr.Z Carmen Ghia


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## Fionn (Jun 30, 2009)

> Show me a female guitarist that can give Steve Vai a run for his money and I'll eat my words.



Jennifer Batten,

She practically is Vai!!!



> Show me a female guitarist that can give Steve Vai a run for his money and I'll eat my words.



Jennifer Batten!!!    

woops didn't realise it posted the first time!!!


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 30, 2009)

it should have been [/thread] after Variant's post.


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## sol niger 333 (Jun 30, 2009)

Fionn said:


> Jennifer Batten,
> 
> She practically is Vai!!!
> 
> ...




I'm talking about breaking new boundaries. Being revolutionary. Not sound a likes. Did a female drummer come up with a crazy polyrhythmic approach to drumming?? Name a truly revolutionary female band that have changed the entire worlds approach to heavy music?? I'm talking about technical proficiency, power, control and originality pertaining to my favourite form of music. You guys shouldn't be so quick to jump on the "SEXIST!!!" bandwagon I'm just saying they cant do metal and hard/prog rock as well as guys IMHO. Fair enough if your favourite band is all female. I'm just saying, for my tastes its the top male players who have been pushing the boundaries of heavier music. Whether that be due to social restrictions for females in the scene or mere physiological fact. All the finger pointing hasn't proven a single point. Here is a quote from a study done on this very subject "In complementary studies, healthy young males were given an injection of female hormones and showed reduced practice effects in a spatial orientation test" Ie: motor skills and coordination were diminished.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 30, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> Bad example. The fact that the WNBA exists is based on the assertion he made which you guys are saying is wrong...



i'm not talking abou why it exists... watching them proves that he's wrong... and to say anything like that is just plain stupid...

you kind of argued around my point which is that regardless of why it exists it proves that the don't have inferior motor skills... and my other examples were other situations in which women showed excellent motor skills...

to say that they're not as good at music because they lack motor skills... that just sounds like caveman thinking...



sol niger 333 said:


> I think there is a vulnerability to a womans approach to music that many men could never fathom let alone understand or replicate. However more often than not their motor skills are no where near up to par with mens (in general and statistically speaking) just ask a woman to throw a ball and that fact is obvious. There is a reason why all my favourite technical or heavy musicians are men (drummers, guitarists, singers etc) yet some of my favourite emotionally driven musicians are women. (singer songwriters, pianists, cello, violinists etc). And please don't say "Kitty" can metal it out just as well as the rest because... they cant.
> 
> Oops I took the title of the thread literally and posted something thoughtful. Cheers for the negative feedback JBroll. Ummm hows this.. Guys are like gibsons with one pickup and girls are like fenders with more dials and more complicated huh huh duh huh huh.



and furthermore... how is a guitar or a drum any more technical than a piano, cello or violin? i don't see how you're justifying men being drawn towards being shredders or the worlds fastest drummers equating to our motor skills being better... 

i've read some of the other posts since this one and i kinda get where you're coming from but it came across really shitty.


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## troyguitar (Jun 30, 2009)

The NBA and WNBA are separate because no women could make the NBA... it's the same way with every sport that I know about.

You guys sound like the clowns that were blasting Larry Summers a few years ago for saying that there are biological differences between men and women...


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## JBroll (Jun 30, 2009)

Yeah, except that we were calling out a claim not based in studies (in fact, one directly contradicted by studies) rather than being PC wankers...

Jeff


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## troyguitar (Jul 1, 2009)

JBroll said:


> Yeah, except that we were calling out a claim not based in studies (in fact, one directly contradicted by studies) rather than being PC wankers...
> 
> Jeff



You changed his claim by narrowing "motor skills" to "fine motor skills" and provided a counter example which was as worthless as his examples... where are these studies?


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## JBroll (Jul 1, 2009)

Considering he was talking about musicianship (big jump in a music thread, discussing music, no?), that substitution is easily justified. Further, although he never provided his studies, I have no problem linking to a now-well-known study claiming that girls' fine motor skills develop earlier and this book will have citations regarding its claims on fine motor skills. 

I have no trouble at all accepting that there are differences in development and abilities between males and females, but the generalizations and stereotypes that go around unquestioned can be easily as misleading as blindly pretending that everyone is the same.

Jeff


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## troyguitar (Jul 1, 2009)

We're talking about elite musicians though, not the average man/woman. It's not really clear that your research is relevant in that context.

My best guess at explaining the fact that men tend to be the best technical players on just about every instrument is simple: men tend to be way more obsessive/competitive than women when it comes to objectively measurable tasks.


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## JBroll (Jul 1, 2009)

Keep in mind that my objections are described by



JBroll said:


> let's just generalize and pretend we have statistics behind it



and the statistics invalidate any merit his claim may have had. Do we see more male than female guitar virtuosos? Certainly - I wasn't arguing that. I was calling out misuse of a misunderstanding of science.

Jeff


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## troyguitar (Jul 1, 2009)

The book you linked said that men were faster when the action was repeated over and over. That is what musicians do. Therefore the statistics are on his side


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 1, 2009)

there's no way to justify that men are better musicians than women... that's the long and short of it. sol niger referenced different instruments (piano, violin, cello for women, i believe... and guitar, vocals and something else for men)... explain to me how playing the guitar would require better motor skills than playing a violin...?

furthermore, most of the women in the wnba are better than a lot of the nba players. the men are stronger than the women. i seriously doubt that it's their motor skills that's keeping them out when there are men that get paid 6 figure salaries to sit on the bench and watch the game that these women could easily replace if it weren't for the ignorant stereotypes you guys are trying to throw around...

EDIT: how the hell did this go from describing men and women in terms of musical equipment to arguing who's better at music? 

at any rate i stand firm that women are equally capable of doing anything we Y chromosome equipped beasts can do...


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## Koshchei (Jul 1, 2009)

sol niger 333 said:


> I'm talking about breaking new boundaries. Being revolutionary. Not sound a likes. Did a female drummer come up with a crazy polyrhythmic approach to drumming?? Name a truly revolutionary female band that have changed the entire worlds approach to heavy music?? I'm talking about technical proficiency, power, control and originality pertaining to my favourite form of music. You guys shouldn't be so quick to jump on the "SEXIST!!!" bandwagon I'm just saying they cant do metal and hard/prog rock as well as guys IMHO. Fair enough if your favourite band is all female. I'm just saying, for my tastes its the top male players who have been pushing the boundaries of heavier music. Whether that be due to social restrictions for females in the scene or mere physiological fact. All the finger pointing hasn't proven a single point. Here is a quote from a study done on this very subject "In complementary studies, healthy young males were given an injection of female hormones and showed reduced practice effects in a spatial orientation test" Ie: motor skills and coordination were diminished.



Anneke Van Giersbergen from the Gathering
Tarja Tarrunen from Nightwish

Both are incredible vocalists who changed the genre.

You want an example of genre-defining women? Check out Vanessa Mae.

You want an example of a virtuoso woman who can blow pretty much anybody's socks off? Valentina Lisitsa or Janina Fialkowska

Music is a completely impartial genre to gender. It honestly makes no difference - it ends at "you can play well".


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 1, 2009)

^ i don't think it's worth it to argue this any more. it's gone off topic from the original purpose of the thread anyway.

but on a hypocritical side note... kaki king =


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## JBroll (Jul 1, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> The book you linked said that men were faster when the action was repeated over and over. That is what musicians do. Therefore the statistics are on his side



Right, when you can play an instrument at a virtuoso level by tapping one finger repeatedly without changing position I'll buy that - there are several other mentions of fine motor skills, and it looks like you missed them.

Jeff


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## troyguitar (Jul 1, 2009)

Konfyouzd said:


> there's no way to justify that men are better musicians than women... that's the long and short of it. sol niger referenced different instruments (piano, violin, cello for women, i believe... and guitar, vocals and something else for men)... explain to me how playing the guitar would require better motor skills than playing a violin...?
> 
> at any rate i stand firm that women are equally capable of doing anything we Y chromosome equipped beasts can do...



He said his favorite technical players were men and emotional players were women. Nothing to do with the differences between instruments (though violin is way way way harder to play than guitar).

You stand firmly wrong.


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 1, 2009)

he named the instruments himself if you look at the post, smart guy. 



> However more often than not their motor skills are no where near up to par with mens (in general and statistically speaking) just ask a woman to throw a ball and that fact is obvious. There is a reason why all my favourite technical or heavy musicians are men (drummers, guitarists, singers etc) yet some of my favourite emotionally driven musicians are women. (singer songwriters, pianists, cello, violinists etc)


now explain to me how being a drummer, guitarist or singer is any more demanding than a singer songwriter, pianist cellist (?), violinist, etc...?

Edit:



troyguitar said:


> My best guess at explaining the fact that men tend to be the best technical players on just about every instrument is simple: men tend to be way more obsessive/competitive than women when it comes to objectively measurable tasks.



My bad, Troy. I actually do agree with *you*. I'm at work so I read the thread a bit hurriedly and I guess I missed this. And I clearly haven't been arguing my point well at all. I think that the shortage in dominant technical female musicians is due in part to the fact that most of them simply aren't concerned with being abled to play 400 beats/sec so they can go back in time and kill people. 

Now this general lack of concern may be why studies will show that women on the whole seem to have worse motor skills, but that by no means puts them at any inherent disadvantage, dig?


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## troyguitar (Jul 1, 2009)

I guess I read that he likes technical guitarists & co. but emotional cellists & co. (i.e. he prefers Rusty Cooley to BB King, not that guitar is harder to play) but I can see how you would read it the other way. In that case you're right, it makes no sense.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 1, 2009)

jesus christ guys did this thread really need all this BS?

it started off light hearted


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## troyguitar (Jul 1, 2009)

light hearted = the other forum 

I don't think anyone's actually upset here. Just sharing ideas


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## Scar Symmetry (Jul 1, 2009)

yeah well this thread is in the wrong forum


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## Konfyouzd (Jul 1, 2009)

troyguitar said:


> I guess I read that he likes technical guitarists & co. but emotional cellists & co. (i.e. he prefers Rusty Cooley to BB King, not that guitar is harder to play) but I can see how you would read it the other way. In that case you're right, it makes no sense.





it's fairly common that i disagree with someone based on the way i tend to interpret things. peep the screen name.


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## BurialWithin (Jul 3, 2009)

Men are like EMG's .....and women are batteries....you gotta replace em' every once in a while..


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## Methilde (Jul 4, 2009)

Dude that is like the most awesome comparison ever  Now I know why I like the POD so much  I'm a goil!

(this is a response to the OP)


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## Daemoniac (Jul 5, 2009)

sol niger 333 said:


> Name a truly revolutionary female band that have changed the entire worlds approach to heavy music??



Masonna.

Might not be to your style, might not be to your tastes, but she did.



> I'm talking about technical proficiency, power, control and originality pertaining to my favourite form of music.


And are consequently ignoring the rest of the forms of music, expression, and 'technical proficiency'.



> I'm just saying they cant do metal and hard/prog rock as well as guys IMHO.


Cant "do it" as well? or they haven't done anything you _like_ as much?



> Fair enough if your favourite band is all female. I'm just saying, for my tastes its the top male players who have been pushing the boundaries of heavier music.


THat in itself is self-destructive, because you've admitted yourself that it's "for your tastes", if it's "for your tastes" then you automatically ignore all the female players, singers and so on who _do_ push the envelope of music because they're not to "your tastes".



> Whether that be due to social restrictions for females in the scene or mere physiological fact.


Or your own ignorance.



> Here is a quote from a study done on this very subject "In complementary studies, healthy young males were given an injection of female hormones and showed reduced practice effects in a spatial orientation test" Ie: motor skills and coordination were diminished.


How about we see some reference to the study as opposed to words in tags? Means nothing without a reference.



Koshchei said:


> Music is a completely impartial genre to gender. It honestly makes no difference - it ends at "you can play well".



and "you have some vision". Creativity/new ideas come from vision as well as ability.


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## BinaryTox1n (Jul 9, 2009)

Uh, about women not being as able to be good musicians as men, peep this:



[/thread]

well

[/tangent-the-thread-mysteriously-decided-to-take]


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## cycloptopus (Jul 9, 2009)

dude! I just saw Hiromi last friday @ the Blue Note NYC! She is mind blowing! She covered Jeff Beck's "Lead Boots" I was shocked and delighted. Also had David Fiuczynski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who has a great guitar style. He played that doubleneck fretless guitar too. Sicko!


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## BinaryTox1n (Jul 9, 2009)

cycloptopus said:


> dude! I just saw Hiromi last friday @ the Blue Note NYC! She is mind blowing! She covered Jeff Beck's "Lead Boots" I was shocked and delighted. Also had David Fiuczynski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who has a great guitar style. He played that doubleneck fretless guitar too. Sicko!



Lucky, I've not had the pleasure of seeing her perform live, but it must really be something... I shat a brick the first time I saw that video posted here


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## JohnIce (Jul 14, 2009)

cycloptopus said:


> dude! I just saw Hiromi last friday @ the Blue Note NYC! She is mind blowing! She covered Jeff Beck's "Lead Boots" I was shocked and delighted. Also had David Fiuczynski - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia who has a great guitar style. He played that doubleneck fretless guitar too. Sicko!


 
Hiromi and Dave are awesome, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the bass player is John McLaughlin's nephew.

On the off-topic debate concerning women's technical abilities, I see it like this: A really, really huge amount of guys who start playing rock music do it to get girls, or some sort of recognition. We have all these rock legends to look up to, and we want all the glory that they had, the age-old sex, drugs and rock n' roll bit. Men are also competitive by nature, and if some other guy plays better than us and gets more attention than us, we want to get better so we can wipe the smile off his face, just for pride's sake. It's no different from the bigger lion chasing away the smaller lion so he can have the females for himself.

There's no questioning that a lot of women are in fact attracted to rock musicians, I have no statistics to back that up so you can disagree if you want. Either way, that ambition to get laid, get respected etc. is a driving force in most men and I imagine it's a big reason to why so many guys play rock music when women are less represented in that music style. And when you have this large community of males trying to outdo each other, the natural progression is shredders, hyper-technical drummers etc.

So I'd say the only reason why women aren't that well-represented in rock and metal is because there's less motivation for it, fewer rolemodels(almost none at all). and the notion that they can get laid anyway.


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## yingmin (Jul 14, 2009)

Demoniac said:


> Masonna.
> 
> Might not be to your style, might not be to your tastes, but she did.


That's a man, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by that. Also, given that I've never heard of him at all, let alone heard anyone cite him as an influence, I can't really get on board with you saying that he "changed the entire world's approach to heavy music". Granted, knowing you, you're probably referring specifically to industrial, which I don't listen to, but the point is still there.


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## cycloptopus (Jul 14, 2009)

JohnIce said:


> Hiromi and Dave are awesome, correct me if I'm wrong but I think the bass player is John McLaughlin's nephew.


Good question, I don't know. But I know a guy who has played with him...or at least the guy who played with her that night. I'll ask and let you know.


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## troyguitar (Jul 14, 2009)

JohnIce said:


> On the off-topic debate concerning women's technical abilities, I see it like this: I'd say the only reason why women aren't that well-represented in rock and metal is because they can get laid anyway.


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## Daemoniac (Jul 16, 2009)

yingmin said:


> That's a man, so I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by that. Also, given that I've never heard of him at all, let alone heard anyone cite him as an influence, I can't really get on board with you saying that he "changed the entire world's approach to heavy music". Granted, knowing you, you're probably referring specifically to industrial, which I don't listen to, but the point is still there.



 I'm an idiot 

Somehow, in my head, he was a woman 

As for "changed the way the world viewed heavy music", assuming he was a woman, he was one of the first _real_ noise makers. Unlike coil, Einsurzende and many many others, he didn't have any form of true 'musicality' to his songs (Einsturzende still had traditional elements, and 'normal' vocals, Coil generally had percussion or mimicked ambient music, just with harsher sounds etc..). Whilst probably not in a really blatant way, that kind of momentous change in what is considered 'music' affects everyone, heavy or not.

I also heard him mentioned before i got into music/industrial in general. Not as an 'influence' per se, but in that "holy shit listen to this" kind of reaction.


EDIT: All that being said though, because he's _not_ a woman lol it really has no point.

I may also say that the fact that there are fewer women driving forward 'heavy' music is a lack of interest? The proportion of girls/women who have even heard of half these bands, let alone like them, compared to guys is really _really_ small (in my experience). I don't think that affects their ability in any way, it just makes this kind of argument really difficult 'cos there are so many factors to weigh up


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## rectifryer (Jul 19, 2009)

Theres no denying that angry white males make up 90 % of metal(just an observation, not saying you have to be white or male). 

That being said, ofcourse not as many females will prevail. The ones that do make it even more impressive given that the tide is initially against them. 

I dont see alot of angry white guys writing pop songs. Doesnt mean I am going to say they cant be succesful at it. Its all about the motivation. I have seen only one female motivated to write metal. I married her. If anything I would say girls have a much better attention to details than the obvious playasfastasyoufuckingcan&djentskullrapeeverything than guys. My reasoning is that, in the military-while I went through basic in SA, TX, the female flights ALWAYS did better at everything than the male flights except for physical stuff. They were always better at working together and ironing out the details(no pun intended). Better leaders, better workers. It was a wake up call. 

Anyway, 

Guys are like a hershey's bar and girls are like a box of chocolates, not every bite is the same. Fail I know. Atleast I tried to contribute to the original topic.


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