# Difference between Augmented 2nd and Minor 3rd



## Glimpsed-AM (Oct 17, 2012)

What's the difference between an Augmented 2nd and a Minor 3rd. I'm not quite sure I understand...


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## groovemasta (Oct 17, 2012)

context?


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## Glimpsed-AM (Oct 17, 2012)

I was told they were enharmonically equivalent, and I was told that they were not.


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## djyngwie (Oct 17, 2012)

Glimpsed-AM said:


> I was told they were enharmonically equivalent, and I was told that they were not.


The former is true.


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## groovemasta (Oct 17, 2012)

I think the interval is the same just the context might not be.

For example one of the modes of harmonic minor, lydian #2, would have an augmented second where as any minor scale would have a minor third.

I'm sure someone more capable will weigh in


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## Glimpsed-AM (Oct 17, 2012)

Okay cool, so they ARE enharmonically equivalent. but the only difference is the context that it is used?


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## djyngwie (Oct 17, 2012)

Glimpsed-AM said:


> Okay cool, so they ARE enharmonically equivalent. but the only difference is the context that it is used?


One is a second, the other is a third. Groovemasta's example is pretty good, actually (and lydian #2 is a pretty cool scale, btw).


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## groovemasta (Oct 17, 2012)

Yea, in a scalar context the augmented second could only appear if there's a major third, where as the minor third could only appear if there's a natural or flattened second. This is my understanding anyways, I have no formal music education so take that into consideration if needed.

Thanks, I agree, way more refreshing than some of the other colors in harmonic minor (phrygian #3)


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## celticelk (Oct 17, 2012)

Context. Say you're playing an E7 chord, which has a G# (the major third, relative to the E root), and you stick a G note on top. You've already got a third in the chord, so harmonically the G is not serving that function; instead, it's providing color in the form of that funky tension between it and the G#. In this case, you'd call that G an augmented second, or more correctly an augmented ninth: it's filling the ninth's role as an extension, but it's a half-step up from the F# that is properly speaking the 9 of that chord. If you *replaced* the G# with the G, then the G is serving as the third of the chord, and you'd call it the minor third instead (and the resulting chord would be Em7).

That ought to hold you until SchecterWhore gets here with the more complete answer....


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## DoomJazz (Oct 17, 2012)

The only difference is on paper.

Intervals are basically quality/quantity. You measure the distance from line/spaces for quantity, and the number of steps after that for quality. 

That's as simple as I can make it.


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## Durero (Oct 18, 2012)

Glimpsed-AM said:


> I was told they were enharmonically equivalent, and I was told that they were not.



They're enharmonically equivalent within the usual twelve semitone equal temperament tuning system. 

They may differ in non equal tempered tunings such as Just Intonation which may explain why you've been able to find both "they're enharmonic" and "they're not enharmonic" statements being made.


So within equal temperament they are enharmonic and it's just a matter of how you spell the notes.

For example: 

- the note that is three semitones above C can be spelled as Eb, which is a minor third above C, or spelled as D#, which is an augmented second above C.


- E is a minor third below G, Fb is an augmented second below G.


- D is a minor third above B, Cx (C double sharp) is an augmented second above B


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## IbanezFred (Oct 28, 2012)

Durero said:


> They're enharmonically equivalent within the usual twelve semitone equal temperament tuning system.
> 
> They may differ in non equal tempered tunings such as Just Intonation which may explain why you've been able to find both "they're enharmonic" and "they're not enharmonic" statements being made.
> 
> ...



^ This


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## Grimbold (Nov 5, 2012)

pretty much what durero said

you have to understand that every (diatonic) scale needs to have an ABCDEFG sharp or flat it doesn't matter like wise every scale needs a second, third, etc from the root. You can't have two seconds in one scale!

it can be a bit of a mindfuck i know, but stick in there!


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## ROB SILVER (Nov 11, 2012)

groovemasta said:


> I think the interval is the same just the context might not be.
> 
> For example one of the modes of harmonic minor, lydian #2, would have an augmented second where as any minor scale would have a minor third.
> 
> I'm sure someone more capable will weigh in



What he said.

They are both the same number of frets apart, but if the second note in a scale is 3 fret from the root it's an aug 2 or #2, if it's the 3rd note in the scale that's 3 frets from the root, then it's a b3.

In isolation they are the same, but in the context of a scale, they can function differently if that makes sense.

So.. yes, very contextual


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