# Kahler 7 string Trems at Last!



## jtm45 (Jan 18, 2007)

They insisted they weren't gonna' make a production 7 but they have (and an 8 too!).
They even do two different version,one for flat top guitars and one that will fit arch/carved tops.Cool!

No pics yet but it sounds very interesting.
(down the bottom of the page)
http://www.wammiusa.com/catalog.html

7 String Kahler Tremolo Systems 

At last the very first cam tremolo in a 7 string version. You asked for it....you got it. Wammi priced well below retail, be the first to sport a 7 string Kahler on your Ibanez or Schecter 7 string. Made to retrofit 7 string Tune-0-Matic stop tailpiece style bridges. Also for arched / carved top and flat guitar bodies. Also guitars that require a higher bridge because of drop away neck angles The very first cam tremolo in a 7 string version.
7227 7 string stud mount
tremolo. Price: $249.00


You asked for it....you got it. Wammi priced well below retail, be the first to sport a 7 string Kahler on your Ibanez or Schecter 7 string. Made to retrofit any flat guitar body. Also guitars that require a lower profile bridge because of shallow or non existent neck angles. 
7327 7 string flat mount
tremolo. Price: $239.00


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## noodles (Jan 18, 2007)

Why the fuck is this page blocked at work?!?


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## jtm45 (Jan 18, 2007)

Copied the writing bit for you Noodles.There's no pics yet anyway.


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## noodles (Jan 18, 2007)

Oh man, now I gotta buy something to throw it on.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 18, 2007)

Are they hybrid ones as well?


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## noodles (Jan 18, 2007)

What do you mean by hybrid? If you're talking about saddle material choice, I don't see why not, since they are interchangeable. If you are talking about cam or baseplate material choice, I seriously doubt it. It is so low demand, why waste the money on offering three different materials?


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## jtm45 (Jan 18, 2007)

I think the 'hybrid' ones are the lockable ones (T-No type action)
Not really sure.
The link to the 6-string versions they have at the bottom(just to give an idea of what they look like i think) are the hybrid ones.

I'd love it if they did the fixed version in a 7-string.
A 7-string hardtail with locking-nut and fine tuners would be cool as.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 18, 2007)

noodles said:


> What do you mean by hybrid? If you're talking about saddle material choice, I don't see why not, since they are interchangeable. If you are talking about cam or baseplate material choice, I seriously doubt it. It is so low demand, why waste the money on offering three different materials?



No, Kahler now have lockable bridges, like a T-no for Kahler. It just required a wrench or something to lock it down.


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## hirah (Jan 18, 2007)

why not offer different metals for the plates? as far as i know, the new kahlers all have cast plates. even to up the price $5-15 for a different plate isn't much of an increase.


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## SeanC (Jan 18, 2007)

ive heard that kahlers kill your sustain. what do you guys have to say about that?


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## noodles (Jan 18, 2007)

hirah said:


> why not offer different metals for the plates? as far as i know, the new kahlers all have cast plates. even to up the price $5-15 for a different plate isn't much of an increase.



If so, that is a new development. You can see the metal discoloration from forging on the back of all of my old Kahlers.



Vic Rattlehead said:


> ive heard that kahlers kill your sustain. what do you guys have to say about that?



You mean you heard from Dave Mustaine that they kill your sustain. That is a myth as big as the bolt-on killing your sustain.


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## SeanC (Jan 18, 2007)

noodles said:


> You mean you heard from Dave Mustaine that they kill your sustain. That is a myth as big as the bolt-on killing your sustain.



actually i didnt hear it from Dave, but im glad to hear its a myth because I love the way they feel, ive just never owned one.


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## Matt Crooks (Jan 18, 2007)

jtm45 said:


> 7 String Kahler Tremolo Systems
> 
> At last the very first cam tremolo in a 7 string version. You asked for it....you got it. Wammi priced well below retail, be the first to sport a 7 string Kahler on your Ibanez or Schecter 7 string. Made to retrofit 7 string Tune-0-Matic stop tailpiece style bridges. Also for arched / carved top and flat guitar bodies. Also guitars that require a higher bridge because of drop away neck angles The very first cam tremolo in a 7 string version.


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## noodles (Jan 18, 2007)

I've heard the "it destroys your tone" argument from plenty of people. I've also heard it about Floyd's. And TOM's without string thrus. And TOM's with string thrus.

Tone is subjective.


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## Matt Crooks (Jan 18, 2007)

Vic Rattlehead said:


> ive heard that kahlers kill your sustain. what do you guys have to say about that?



You know if you wank too much, you'll go blind too?


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## jtm45 (Jan 18, 2007)

I fitted a Kahelr to an Ibanez Destroyer II i had many years ago and it sounded as good,if not better,tone/harmonics/sustain wise afterwards.

It says on that guys site that these 'hybrid' Kahlers all require a 2.5"x2.5" by 1" deep route for fitting.
I can't remember whether that's the same size as the one i had to route for my old one (it was a long time ago),but it's not a difficult retro-fit,especially when compared to fitting a Floyd or an Edge/Lo-Pro.
It says they come with all fitting hardware and a routing template but there's no mention of a 7 string locking-nut.
I suppose that counts as 'fitting hardware'(?!). 

I was gonna' put a hardtail RG7 together sometime in the near future so,as these trems have a trem/hardtail capability i think that's the bridge i'll be using. 

It's strange that there's no mention of these on the Kahler website.


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## drshock (Jan 18, 2007)

And just after I buy an OFR.


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## darren (Jan 18, 2007)

Kahlers require less wood removal than a fulcrum bridge, so the argument that it "kills your sustain" or "kills your tone" is highly suspect. Gary Kahler wouldn't put out a crap product made with cheap metals. In fact, several options for the cam and roller metals are available... brass, aluminum and stainless, if i'm not mistaken.


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## ohio_eric (Jan 18, 2007)

I get sick and tired of all the gear snobs bitching about this or that kills tone. Your equipment or ,more likely,your playing being shit kills your tone. Now things might alter and you may have to adapt, but that's life, suck it up.  

Anyway it's really good that there are more trem options out there for seven string players. Now I feel compelled to play a guitar with one of these new Kahler beasts. It's been forever and a month of Sundays since I played a guitar with a Kahler. So I'm curious.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 18, 2007)

darren said:


> Gary Kahler wouldn't put out a crap product made with cheap metals. In fact, several options for the cam and roller metals are available... brass, aluminum and stainless, if i'm not mistaken.



Or else he would have licensed these a loooooooong time ago and there'd be a billion knock offs just like Floyds.


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## Pauly (Jan 18, 2007)

Eek! So I could get a Hellraiser, and swap the TOM for one of these, and have a floaty floaty bridge?! Need to get a locking nut put in though right?


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## starsnuffer (Jan 18, 2007)

The "sustain killing" comes from actually using the trem, not for just having it installed.

Because the cams move against the string as you pull down or push up on the trem, it puts resistance on the strings vibrations, so it doesn't sustain as long. This is opposed to say, a floyd or a fender trem where the trem serves to simply stretch the string against the nut. 

-W


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## jacksonplayer (Jan 18, 2007)

The Kahler Hybrid is a mass-produced, relatively cheap version that has the little lockdown screw on the rear of the unit so you can use it as a fixed-bridge version. It's the one new product introduced since Kahler went back into business, though I haven't seen one of these. Supposedly some of the very early Kahler Pros back in the day had the same locking screw system, but I've never seen one of those, either. It makes a lot of sense.


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## jtm45 (Jan 18, 2007)

Pauly said:


> Eek! So I could get a Hellraiser, and swap the TOM for one of these, and have a floaty floaty bridge?! Need to get a locking nut put in though right?



You'll also need to route a 2.5"x2.5"x1" chunk out of your Hellraiser too.


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## metalfiend666 (Jan 19, 2007)

[action=metalfiend666]wonders if he can change his KXK order to have a Kahler[/action]


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## Lozek (Jan 19, 2007)

Awesome, the lead guitarist from my first band had Kahlers on his Charvels and they were amazing.


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## jtm45 (Jan 19, 2007)

I'd love to have one of these on an RG7 if only to use it as a fine-tuner fixed bridge with a locking-nut.
Ibanez really should have pulled their fingers out and made an Edge-FX7.

These are a lot more reasonably priced than the Ibanez trems too.


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## noodles (Jan 19, 2007)

metalfiend666 said:


> [action=metalfiend666]wonders if he can change his KXK order to have a Kahler[/action]



Obviously, Rob is at NAMM right now, but give him a call next week. He offers Kahlers, and has told me that he could get the 7-string trems if they become available.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 19, 2007)

jacksonplayer said:


> The Kahler Hybrid is a *mass-produced, relatively cheap version *that has the little lockdown screw on the rear of the unit so you can use it as a fixed-bridge version. It's the one new product introduced since Kahler went back into business, though I haven't seen one of these. Supposedly some of the very early Kahler Pros back in the day had the same locking screw system, but I've never seen one of those, either. It makes a lot of sense.



So, these hybrid trems are low quality? Are they not up to par with other Kahler trems?


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## technomancer (Jan 19, 2007)

metalfiend666 said:


> [action=metalfiend666]wonders if he can change his KXK order to have a Kahler[/action]



I pondered that, but I believe he already ordered the piezos for mine, so this one is staying TOM for me...

Though it is tempting


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## God Hand Apostle (Jan 19, 2007)

Hmmmm...7 string Kahler on the KxK eh? Hmmmm....to afford it, I'd have to get a painted neck instead of tung oil...which doesn't bother me at all.....Hmmmmm....

I didn't read anything about Kahler 7 string locks (after the nut). Anyone know if they have those too?


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## Durero (Jan 19, 2007)

starsnuffer said:


> The "sustain killing" comes from actually using the trem, not for just having it installed.
> 
> Because the cams move against the string as you pull down or push up on the trem, it puts resistance on the strings vibrations, so it doesn't sustain as long. This is opposed to say, a floyd or a fender trem where the trem serves to simply stretch the string against the nut.
> 
> -W


No my friend, this is not the case. The useful vibrating length of the string stops at the roller saddles, and since the cam is behind the roller saddles it has no effect on the vibrating length of the string.

My first electric guitar had a Kahler and I'd take one over a fulcrum-type trem any day 

Here's pics from the Halo 8 thread:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showpost.php?p=313299&postcount=493


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## jtm45 (Jan 19, 2007)

Cool pics man
I found the Kahler very different (feel-wise)to an Edge/Floyd type trem but i have to say it was a shit-lot easier to live with.
Those things are just so adjustable too. I think the saddles have about 5 different adjustements so you can set them up perfectly. 


I feel more positive about it now i've seen actual pics.

I'll be getting one for sure!
Don't know quite what i'll fit it to yet (probably an RG7)but even if i have to end up getting a guitar specially for this that what i'll do.

I think i'll probably use an Ibanez locking-nut though.


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## Enmesarra (Jan 19, 2007)

Good news!

By the way, has anyone used the 7330 model (fixed) or any other fixed Kahler? I've heard that they are extremely comfortable, any comments?


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## God Hand Apostle (Jan 19, 2007)

I just thought of something that might throw off getting one on my KxK....the zero radius fretboard I ordered.

Anyone know if a Kahler can be adjusted to a zero radius? I think I've read that all saddles are fully adjustable...?


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## Shawn (Jan 19, 2007)

Nice. I owned 1 guitar with a Kahler back in the day and I loved it. Now in a 7-string is even better!


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## Durero (Jan 20, 2007)

God Hand Apostle said:


> I just thought of something that might throw off getting one on my KxK....the zero radius fretboard I ordered.
> 
> Anyone know if a Kahler can be adjusted to a zero radius? I think I've read that all saddles are fully adjustable...?


They definitely can. Each saddle is fully adjustable.

Great choice on the zero radius by the way.


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## Brett89 (Jan 20, 2007)

Is a Kahler trem better then a floyd style trem? I mean it's more durable or something? It uses blades like floyds?


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## Durero (Jan 20, 2007)

Better is probably a matter of opinion, but in my opinion the Kahlers are much better than Floyds.

They are way more adjustable, and much easier to adjust for action, intonation, string spacing (which you can't change at all on a Floyd), spring tension, and bar friction.

The string saddles are separate from the moving cam, so your action doesn't change as you move the bar, like it does on a Floyd.

The cam pivots on ball bearings rather than a knife edge, so Kahlers are much less prone to wear.


I mainly prefer the easy feel of the Kahlers compared to Floyds, both for the bar movement, and for palm-muting on the saddles.


Edit: having said all that, I think the Ibanez ZR7 comes pretty close to the Kahlers in terms of features and feel, and both systems are excellent.

I'm going to order a Kahler 7 to see if I can adapt it to an angled multi-scale bridge.


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## stuz719 (Jan 20, 2007)

ohio_eric said:


> I get sick and tired of all the gear snobs bitching about this or that kills tone. Your equipment or ,more likely,your playing being shit kills your tone.


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## THE VILE (Jan 20, 2007)

Brett89 said:


> Is a Kahler trem better then a floyd style trem? I mean it's more durable or something? It uses blades like floyds?



I'm not positive but I think Kahler made a (Flyer?) model that used knife blades, which also led to them being sued by Floyd Rose.


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## jtm45 (Jan 22, 2007)

Had an email back from the guy who's selling these (Wammi.USA)and he says that he'll have them in stock and for sale in around a fortnight.


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## Hexer (Jan 22, 2007)

those Kahlers look really interesting!

I'd really, really like to try one of those!!!


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## Digital Black (Jan 22, 2007)

Nice, I want to get one for my Cort Viva7 .


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## Pauly (Jan 22, 2007)

Lefties rejoice!


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## Scott (Jan 22, 2007)

^Feck ya!

Carvin should be seeing a few new orders from some lefties soon.


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## IbanezFan (Jan 23, 2007)

Awesome.. at last...


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## jtm45 (Jan 23, 2007)

Hey Noodles!
I had an email from Kahler (the guy's called Josh Vittek)today and apparently they are doing the 7's and the 8's in the top of the range Professional versions too.
They have them in stock in Black,Gold and Chrome ready to ship now.(although they aren't actually up on the site yet)

They're a bit pricier than the standard version;
$379 for the 7
$399 for the 8
They both have the locking feature as well so you can use them as a trem or a fixed bridge.


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## metalfiend666 (Jan 23, 2007)

Do the regular versions have the locking feature?


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## jtm45 (Jan 23, 2007)

metalfiend666 said:


> Do the regular versions have the locking feature?



Yeah,they do indeed James. 
I think i'll probably be getting the cheaper version too,when i've got the cash to spare that is.
Are you planning on getting one fitted to your KXK or what James?

I'm gonna' keep my eyes peeled for a cheap-ish 7621 or a 7421 to stick one on i think.

I forgot to say as well,apparently Kahler don't make 7 or 8 string locking-nuts yet but they're working on it.He reckons they'll have them sorted by the summer. 
I like the Ibanez ones anyway.


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## noodles (Jan 23, 2007)

jtm45 said:


> Hey Noodles!
> I had an email from Kahler (the guy's called Josh Vittek)today and apparently they are doing the 7's and the 8's in the top of the range Professional versions too.



Honestly, the *only* version worth having. I'm starting to suspect that the cheaper version is based on the Flyer, which was a total piece of garbage. The only fault of the Professional is the non-locking string hooks. If the strings locked at the bridge, it would be every bit as stable with a Floyd. Well, that is assuming use of a Floyd locknut, since everyone knows the Kahler stringlock doesn't work.



> They're a bit pricier than the standard version;
> $379 for the 7
> $399 for the 8



That just killed it for me. If I'm paying that much for a bridge, it better say Steinberger TransTrem on the side.


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## metalfiend666 (Jan 23, 2007)

jtm45 said:


> Yeah,they do indeed James.
> I think i'll probably be getting the cheaper version too,when i've got the cash to spare that is.
> Are you planning on getting one fitted to your KXK or what James?


 


I'm going to ask about it, depends on if he'll do it and the upcharge.


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## W4D (Jan 23, 2007)

noodles said:


> Honestly, the *only* version worth having. I'm starting to suspect that the cheaper version is based on the Flyer, which was a total piece of garbage. The only fault of the Professional is the non-locking string hooks. If the strings locked at the bridge, it would be every bit as stable with a Floyd. Well, that is assuming use of a Floyd locknut, since everyone knows the Kahler stringlock doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> That just killed it for me. If I'm paying that much for a bridge, it better say Steinberger TransTrem on the side.



Yeah we use teh USA top line KAHLERS


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## svart (Jan 24, 2007)

gonna save up for one! want a kahler on my ke-7 so bad!


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 24, 2007)

noodles said:


> Honestly, the *only* version worth having. I'm starting to suspect that the cheaper version is based on the Flyer, which was a total piece of garbage. The only fault of the Professional is the non-locking string hooks. If the strings locked at the bridge, it would be every bit as stable with a Floyd. Well, that is assuming use of a Floyd locknut, since everyone knows the Kahler stringlock doesn't work.
> 
> 
> 
> That just killed it for me. If I'm paying that much for a bridge, it better say Steinberger TransTrem on the side.



So...the ones on that Wammi USA site are cheap versions? Are they still stable?


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## noodles (Jan 24, 2007)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> So...the ones on that Wammi USA site are cheap versions? Are they still stable?



I don't know, since I cannot load the site at work. However, in my experience with Kahler, the "cheaper" versions (like the Flyer) are almost completely unusable, like a bad Floyd copy.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Jan 24, 2007)

I thought there weren't cheaper ones since he wouldn't license the design. So he's putting out crappy versions of his own trem? That seems odd. That's like Floyd Rose releasing a TRS version...


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## Hexer (Jan 24, 2007)

has anyone compared a Floyd and a Kahler (of similar quallity) and can tell the pros and cons?


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## W4D (Jan 24, 2007)

it all depends if you get a upper or lower model kahler


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## GWD (Jan 24, 2007)

The two versions of the Kahler bridges are suppose to be identical in design despite The Hybrid, of course, having the fixed bridge locking mechanism. The main difference, and reason for price difference, is the quality of steels used. The tolerances are suppose to be identical. All of this info came from a Kahler rep.


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## wretchedspawn (Jan 25, 2007)

So replacing the TOM on my Blackjack with one of these Kahlers will require a 2.5"x2.5"x1" route? How much would this cost?


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## noodles (Jan 25, 2007)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I thought there weren't cheaper ones since he wouldn't license the design. So he's putting out crappy versions of his own trem? That seems odd. That's like Floyd Rose releasing a TRS version...



Actually, Floyd did do something like that. The Floyd Rose II used cheaper sand cast metal.


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## ChaNce (Jan 25, 2007)

I actually had one of those on a crappy kramer I had back in the day. It wasnt bad, and I actually liked the fine tuning mechanism, but it just felt, well, mushy.

BTW, that Kramer had a plywood body. It was rad.

There are few experiences like drinking in a shitty restaurant in the Atlanta airport. 5$ internet though.


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## jtm45 (Jan 25, 2007)

Here's some pics of the 2 different mount 7's and the 2 different mount 8's in the various finishes.
These are the cheaper range.
As GWD said,the two ranges are identical in their form,it's just that the more expensive Pro range use higher quality metals etc.
They're not as different as the Lo-Pro/Edges are compared to the TRS trems.Those are completely different designs.
The 8 Strings;







The 7 Strings;


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## Pauly (Jan 25, 2007)

What I can't figure out is why Kahler can be arsed to make holes for lefties so you can just pop the bar in and you're good to go, but none of the Floyds or their numerous copies do. Oh well, methinks I've found the bridge for a future 8.


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## Scott (Jan 25, 2007)

Well, for ibanez, aparantly part of their deal with Korn, is that they wont use the u-bar designed bridges on anything that isn't a Korn sig. (Mass produced guitars at least)


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## metalfiend666 (Jan 26, 2007)

So for anyone wanting to Kahler a Hellraiser you're going to have to fit a couple of studs like the ones used for stop tailpieces.


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## noodles (Jan 26, 2007)

Pauly said:


> What I can't figure out is why Kahler can be arsed to make holes for lefties so you can just pop the bar in and you're good to go, but none of the Floyds or their numerous copies do. Oh well, methinks I've found the bridge for a future 8.



Comapny don't do it with Floyd and licensed Floyd bridges because it is a fundamental redesign of the bridge. The entire baseplate would have to be redesigned, and the manufacturing line would require retooling. Modern manufacturing is a business where cutting back from a $1.00 part to a $0.50 part can save a company tens of thousands of dollars.

With Kahler, you just need to drill more holes in the top of the cam: one for the bar, and one for the bar tensioner. The additional costs required are much lower. Plus, with the bar mounting directly to the cam, the bridge was more left hand friendly from the start. When Floyd offered a left hand bridge, they had to completely redesign the base, and offer new route templates. When Kahler offered a left hand bridge, they simply had to duplicate the holes and tensioner on the other side of the already existing cam. For a guitar manufacturer to offer a lefty Floyd, they have to put new route programs into their CNC machines. With Kahler, no change.

The economy of scale is a shitty thing, but that is the problem you are running into. When someone in an office weighs the cost of a left-handed whatever against the projected returns on investment (i.e. sales), the result is usually not favorable for the manufacturer. How many people actually use an Original Floyd Rose 7 on their guitar? That is why they don't offer a lefty model.



metalfiend666 said:


> So for anyone wanting to Kahler a Hellraiser you're going to have to fit a couple of studs like the ones used for stop tailpieces.



Correct. In this picture, you can clearly see the TOM and stop tail stud holes that the Kahler anchors to.






The TOM posts are replaced with much shorter ones that have a flat disc on top. The front of the bridge rests on this, held down by weight and string tension. The back of the bridge anchors to the studs, and is locked in place with allen screws. I still maintain that Tone Pros stole the idea for locking bridge parts from Kahler.


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## Durero (Jan 26, 2007)

Wow where'd you get that picture Dave?
Is that some early Kahler made for Gibson?
they've certainly re-designed the saddles since then.


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## jtm45 (Jan 26, 2007)

Gibson did release some Les Paul and Explorer models with Kahlers fitted stock and they were made with Gibson logos on them.
I see what you mean about the saddles.That must have been either a very early design or a different saddle for Gibson or something.
I had a Kahler (the flatmount type)way back in the mid 80's and it didn't have saddles like that.


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## noodles (Jan 26, 2007)

Durero said:


> Wow where'd you get that picture Dave?







> Is that some early Kahler made for Gibson?
> they've certainly re-designed the saddles since then.



Gibson had a licensing agreement with Kahler to make their own trems. Those saddles are actually similar to what was used on the Kahler Flyer.


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## Durero (Jan 26, 2007)

Very interesting - thanks for the info Dave & Dave.
I love learning new stuff on this forum


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## D-EJ915 (Jan 26, 2007)

Kahler has a stop-piece model.

The 7 string one is just a top-mount, though, yes? Ok yeah I see in the pics above that there is one.


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## Petar (Feb 3, 2008)

So, in the end, anyone had installed one of these..?
I have tried to search the forum, but no luck with finding an actual experience of using it..liek that 7227 model..
it would be great to hear is it really working..!


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## noodles (Feb 3, 2008)

There are a couple guys here who ordered them on their KxK Sii-7 customs, but haven't taken delivery yet.


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## budda (Feb 3, 2008)

I'm late to the party.. i can put a kahler 7 trem on my C7 blackjack?

which would mean.. if i were to get a C7 blackjack ATX.. i could put a kahler trem on THAT?

HAHA an excuse to buy that guitar! YES!

(I hope..)


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

yeah, the atx is TOM right? then yes. it would take a wee bit of routing but yeah its doable

someone on here has a kahler 7 on their SC607b. forget who though


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## ukfswmart (Feb 3, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> someone on here has a kahler 7 on their SC607b. forget who though



T'would be me, sire 

For everyone who's asking, you can put a Kahler trem on _any_ guitar you wish; if your guitar has an arched/carved body, or is a flat-top with a TOM bridge, you'll want one from the 2200 or 7200 series, otherwise the 2300 or 7300 series is what you're after. For the RG7321, in this case, you'd want one of the latter models

Both systems require only a 1-1.5"-deep rout out of the top of the guitar for the bridge to fit, making it _far_ cheaper to install than a Floyd. Sure, you can pick up a LFR 7 for fewer pennies than a Kahler 7, but the money you spend on installation costs quickly erodes any financial benefit from choosing an inferior product


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

lol floyds arent inferior. 
but cost wise, they are pretty close to the equivalent of getting raped by a minotaur.


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## budda (Feb 3, 2008)

i thought the TOM-adapted one would be a drop on replacement. fooey.


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

lord lemons said:


> A bit OT, but which Kalher can most easily be installed in an RG7321?




the 2317 and 2327 are what you want for an RG7321. they're both the same trem, function wise, but they differ in materials. 

the 2327 has a brass cam and brass rollers which yields a warmer richer tone. the 2317 has a brass cam and stainless steel rollers (i'm having this one put on my KxK Sii-7 ), which is supposed to have the warmth of the 2327 trem with more sustain and harmonics.


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## ukfswmart (Feb 3, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> lol floyds arent inferior.
> but cost wise, they are pretty close to the equivalent of getting raped by a minotaur.



Not all of them, sure, but all the LFRs I've used play like shit  And like I said, the price pretty much balances out when you take luthier fees into consideration




Edroz said:


> the 2317 and 2327 are what you want for an RG7321. they're both the same trem, function wise, but they differ in materials.
> 
> the 2327 has a brass cam and brass rollers which yields a warmer richer tone. the 2317 has a brass cam and stainless steel rollers (i'm having this one put on my KxK Sii-7 ), which is supposed to have the warmth of the 2327 trem with more sustain and harmonics.



The B, E and A string rollers on the 2317 and 2217 models are brass; the other four are steel. I guess the steel rollers don't work quite as well as the brass ones on the lower strings


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

ukfswmart said:


> The B, E and A string rollers on the 2317 and 2217 models are brass; the other four are steel. I guess the steel rollers don't work quite as well as the brass ones on the lower strings



interesting, didn't know that. i guess i'll get to find out for myself when my KxK is completed . 

any experience with that trem yourself?


i went with the Kahler on my Sii-7 build because i absolutely love the one that's on my old Charvel, and when i found out about the 7 string versions, i couldn't resist!


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## Petar (Feb 3, 2008)

I am glad i have resurected thi thread..!
Nice to hear some feedback..
UKFSWMART: please, tell as more about it?
How much can you pull..? What about flutter..? Is it posible at all with this kind of trem..? i really have no clue about these kinds of trems..

ps: which one would fit Conklin gtg-7?

Thanks..


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## noodles (Feb 3, 2008)

ukfswmart said:


> Not all of them, sure, but all the LFRs I've used play like shit  And like I said, the price pretty much balances out when you take luthier fees into consideration



You really need to play an OFR-7. It really is the best seven string trem available, and is higher quality than any of it's competitors. Kahler, for one, still uses pot metal saddles.


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

youd want the 23x7 for a groove tools right?
those are flat topped arent they?


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## ukfswmart (Feb 3, 2008)

Edroz said:


> interesting, didn't know that. i guess i'll get to find out for myself when my KxK is completed .
> 
> any experience with that trem yourself?



Yep; got one on my 607B (pics are in the 'Pictures of your sevens' thread... somewhere...) and it's an absolute dream to use. I still need to poke around with it a little to get it exactly how I want, although the beauty of that is that I don't need to take it to a tech to do the simplest of things, as the whole unit is so easy to use




Petar said:


> I am glad i have resurected thi thread..!
> Nice to hear some feedback..
> UKFSWMART: please, tell as more about it?
> How much can you pull..? What about flutter..? Is it posible at all with this kind of trem..? i really have no clue about these kinds of trems..
> Thanks!



Sadly, this is one of the few things the Kahler falls down on. Fluttering is not something the trem can really do since the only parts moving are the cam and saddle set, which weigh very little compared to an entire Floyd Rose. Low mass = low momentum = very little flutter. It's a shame, because flutters are sick as hell and sound hawt, but if the cam was dense enough to enable fluttering, the action would be heavy like a Floyd and you'd lose that feather-light touch that Kahlers are renown for

As for pull, I've always been more of a diver (mainly 'cause I don't want to ping a string and lacerate my hands ), but there's no reason I can think of why it shouldn't be comparable to a Floyd


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

ukfswmart said:


> Yep; got one on my 607B (pics are in the 'Pictures of your sevens' thread... somewhere...) and it's an absolute dream to use. I still need to poke around with it a little to get it exactly how I want, although the beauty of that is that I don't need to take it to a tech to do the simplest of things, as the whole unit is so easy to use





good to hear. thanks!


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## JJ Rodriguez (Feb 3, 2008)

Edroz said:


> good to hear. thanks!



OT: I didn't know you were in Mortal Decay Edroz. You guys fucking rock


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## ukfswmart (Feb 3, 2008)

noodles said:


> You really need to play an OFR-7. It really is the best seven string trem available, and is higher quality than any of it's competitors. Kahler, for one, still uses pot metal saddles.



Where do you feel the OFR 7 excels over the Kahler Pro series? Quality aside (personally a bit dubious about the saddle claim, but I'm sure you have your sources all worked out), it's the six-way saddle adjustment, light action and ease of installation that really impressed me. Plus, it doesn't take anywhere near as long to restring. I'm interested to know what you find is better about the OFR, though


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## Petar (Feb 3, 2008)

Thanks for a quick answer..i was afraid that flutter is not possible..
unfortunatelly, i was also right..
still, you get a trem without a signifficant choping of your guitar..
Considering the one would fit GTG, i really don't have a clue which one would fit..the top isn;t flat as Ibanezes..but the part where the bridge lies is pretty much flat..so i am not really sure..sorry..


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

if youd read my post, those guys fucking rocked. they didnt like to inform ed about booked shows


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## ukfswmart (Feb 3, 2008)

Petar said:


> Considering the one would fit GTG, i really don't have a clue which one would fit..the top isn;t flat as Ibanezes..but the part where the bridge lies is pretty much flat..so i am not really sure..sorry..



If your current bridge is a flat-mount unit, you'd probably be safe with a 2300 or 7300 series model, although it depends how far back from the bridge your guitar starts to curve. Do you have any photos of it?


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## Petar (Feb 3, 2008)

not at the moment.but, anyway, no flutter=no for me..
i simply love flutter...ma favorite thing to do with trem..!
still, I appreciate your help!
hope you are enyouing it..!


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

subtle fluttering can be done on a Kahler, it's just not as aggressive as an OFR7

for the record, i love OFRs and Kahlers equally as i find they both excel in different areas.


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## Durero (Feb 3, 2008)

Have you seen this thread Petar?

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/pi...rison-between-kahler-floyd-rose-vibratos.html


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

I find the ZR to be the best of both worlds. 
Lol, dude, thats wierd, i HATE flutter lol.
i crave nonflutter with my floyd.


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> I find the ZR to be the best of both worlds.
> Lol, dude, thats wierd, i HATE flutter lol.
> i crave nonflutter with my floyd.



an unexpected flutter in just the right spot, using a clean sound with some mild chorus and delay just flat out owns!


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

true.
but i get unexpected flutter in just the wrong spot 
i dont ever use it on purpose, and id rather have the predictability. 
I still have most of my axes floyd equpped though, i dont mind it that much really, just when it happens at wierd times and makes it sound like i fucked up. its done that to me 3 times lol


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

ibznorange said:


> true.
> but i get unexpected flutter in just the wrong spot
> i dont ever use it on purpose, and id rather have the predictability.
> I still have most of my axes floyd equpped though, i dont mind it that much really, just when it happens at wierd times and makes it sound like i fucked up. its done that to me 3 times lol




well, unexpected to the listener... completely controlled by me


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## Petar (Feb 3, 2008)

No i haven't, thanks, Durero, i 'll chek it out!
ps: thank you very much about your help concerning decapitated guitars


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

more OT!  




ibznorange said:


> if youd read my post, those guys fucking rocked. they didnt like to inform ed about booked shows



that wasn't the ONLY reason for my leaving. those guys were good friends of mine years before i joined and still are, but let's just say we were incompatible in every way possible in a working relationship  





JJ Rodriguez said:


> OT: I didn't know you were in Mortal Decay Edroz. You guys fucking rock




thanks JJ! yeah, i spent about a year and half with the band as a bass player/ guitarist when needed and recorded "Cadaver Art", did the Gutting Europe '05 tour followed by a bunch of US fests/ shows and called it a day


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## Adam (Feb 3, 2008)

I was just wondering, with a kahler is it always necessary to solder the windings near the ball end?
Thanks


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

no?


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

Edroz said:


> well, unexpected to the listener... completely controlled by me



Oh see, i've done it on accident a few times, just let the bar snap back and get a funky *wrwrwaawrwr* noise over a power chord post-divebomb
lol, i never really do it on purpose. 



Edroz said:


> that wasn't the ONLY reason for my leaving. those guys were good friends of mine years before i joined and still are, but let's just say we were incompatible in every way possible in a working relationship


 gotcha. that would potentially be enough to make me quit if it happened enough


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

Adam said:


> I was just wondering, with a kahler is it always necessary to solder the windings near the ball end?
> Thanks



i've never heard of that one. in my experience with Kahlers, i never had any issues with not soldering the windings


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## ibznorange (Feb 3, 2008)

remember that site drstring or whatever it was called, that jerich posted?
they rambled on and fucking on about string ends being the leading cause of both tuning stability and cancer among children. Apparently, soldering the ball ends solid is supposed to help, so that the wraps dont squeeze around the edge of the ball. I've never had too with fixed bridges though, and ive only met one person who thought it was necessary with a kahler, and their opinions on other stuff were... um... suspect


at best


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

i guess if you're really that anal about strings, soldering can't hurt... even if it may be unnecessary...


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## Durero (Feb 3, 2008)

Do you Kahler users not experience strings breaking at the ball-ends when you pull the bar all the way up?

Used to happen to me all the time, and still does on my Steinberger Trans-Trem which has an almost identical design to Kahlers.

Back when Kahlers were very popular all of the major string companies used to offer special re-enforced ball end strings to deal with this problem.


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## noodles (Feb 3, 2008)

ukfswmart said:


> Where do you feel the OFR 7 excels over the Kahler Pro series? Quality aside (personally a bit dubious about the saddle claim, but I'm sure you have your sources all worked out), it's the six-way saddle adjustment, light action and ease of installation that really impressed me. Plus, it doesn't take anywhere near as long to restring. I'm interested to know what you find is better about the OFR, though



I've broken about four or five Kahler saddles over the years, so I'm pretty sure I'm a credible source.  They're simple sand castings, so they're not very strong at all. The rollers bind over time, which makes returning to tune after bar use next to impossible. Bending strings causing binding on the came behind the saddles, also causing tuning problems. Yes, the saddle adjustment is nice, but it is a very complicated unit. To build it with the quality of the Floyd parts--the baseplate and saddles are machined out of case hardened steel--you'd be paying twice as much.

In my experience, they took longer to restring. To prevent string breakage, I soldered the ball ends of the strings. It is also a pain in the ass to keep the ball end seated in the saddle properly while tightening the string. The range of motion is also nowhere near that of a Floyd.

There is a reason the Floyd became the standard in trem design--it represents the evolution of a simple design, rather than a complicated rethinking of it. I don't like the lack of adjustablity much, either, but it is the best at what it does: standing up to abuse and always returning to zero with the strings in tune.


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## noodles (Feb 3, 2008)

Durero said:


> Do you Kahler users not experience strings breaking at the ball-ends when you pull the bar all the way up?
> 
> Used to happen to me all the time, and still does on my Steinberger Trans-Trem which has an almost identical design to Kahlers.
> 
> Back when Kahlers were very popular all of the major string companies used to offer special re-enforced ball end strings to deal with this problem.



I certainly had these problems with my Kahlers. 

I think we're just showing our age, since we still remember the first go around with Kahlers.


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## Edroz (Feb 3, 2008)

i'm not knocking OFRs at all, case hardened steel or not, the only trem saddles i've ever had break on me, not once, but on 2 seperate occasions and 2 different saddles were on the OFR on my Jackson SL-1 .

this is the only trem i've ever had this happen to me on all the trem equipped guitars i've ever owned. OFR, licensed floyd, Kahler, Kahler floyd copy (Steeler?), Lo Pro, Original Edge, Wilkinson, Fender, etc... 

having said all that, i do  my OFR7 i put on my Carvin 727


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## Cancer (Feb 3, 2008)

ukfswmart said:


> Where do you feel the OFR 7 excels over the Kahler Pro series? Quality aside (personally a bit dubious about the saddle claim, but I'm sure you have your sources all worked out), it's the six-way saddle adjustment, light action and ease of installation that really impressed me. Plus, it doesn't take anywhere near as long to restring. I'm interested to know what you find is better about the OFR, though



Noodles kinda said what I thinking but I wanted to chime in anyway. As a piece of mechanical engineering the Kahler Pro is an amazing piece of technology, part of reason I used it on my V220 for so long because I was just so geeked out over the design of the thing. I loved the adjustabiltiy, the concept of the cam, everything about it.

That said, nowadays I'd take OFR, or even a modified LFR.

I might be hard to see in this pic, but check out the chrome Low "e" saddle and the chrome cam in this shot:






The cam was replaced because I'd though it would look cool, but the low "e" saddle broke while I was recording my first album. Back then getting the parts was starting to be an issue (circa '99-00), so after the recording was completed I decided to "retire" the v220. It's one thing to break a string at a gig, it's another when your bridge goes, y'know.

I won't get into the "what's better" debate simply because I never really saw one as better than the other as much as using a different path to get to the same destination. What I will say though is I do prefer the way the string reacts on an OFR as opposed to a Kahler, especially when it comes to harmonics. I think the constant mass of vibrating string allows harmonics to ring stronger on an OFR/LFR during use, where on the Kahler the same vibrating mass varies during use, causing those harmonics to change tonality and die sooner. It's not a "worse" sound per se, just different, and between that, and still being a little nervous about broken saddles (which I've NEVER had happen to me with a LFR/OFR), means I'll probably be playing LFR/OFR's for the forseeable future.

THe Kahler design is mad genius though, it's like the kind of thing you'd see in a museum for industrial design ...and so much better than the Wonderbar.


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## Durero (Feb 4, 2008)

noodles said:


> I think we're just showing our age, since we still remember the first go around with Kahlers.


Truth


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## Alex-D33 (Feb 5, 2008)

Don't know if guys saw this but I think it's worth checking out 

YouTube - Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 1 of 3 - Tremolo Comparison

YouTube - Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 2 of 3 - Tremolo Comparison

YouTube - Kahler vs. Floyd Rose - Part 3 of 3 - Tremolo Comparison


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## robanomoly (Feb 5, 2008)

Petar said:


> So, in the end, anyone had installed one of these..?
> I have tried to search the forum, but no luck with finding an actual experience of using it..liek that 7227 model..
> it would be great to hear is it really working..!



I used a Kahler on my 5th build and am very happy with it's performance. Here's the post/story:

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/sevenstring-guitars/41122-guitar-build-5-al.html


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## suicidalmoose (May 21, 2008)

Pardon me for reviving an old topic. I'm getting a 7 string made by a luthier at the moment and I've decided to put a kahler 7 string in because it is by far the cheapest us made tremolo you can get. $199 with free shipping to Australia, Floyd 7 is at least 299 if you can find one... Let alone the ibanez ones.

I emailed Wammiworld (one of the major distributors) about that famous bending issue that the youtube video talks about...

Thank you for your interest in Kahler bridges. We appreciate your question regarding what you saw on You-Tube. We realize you want all the facts before you buy and are concerned over this detuning issue. Let me respond that first saying, Its not a flaw or defect as he suggestsits simply a bad setup or most likely in his case, metal fatigue. This is NOT a widespread problem. If a Kahler tremolo is set up right, it will stay in tune perfectly. After all, Kahler systems have been out there for over a quarter of a century now. With over 1.7 million sold since 1983, you would think by now that this would be all over the internet and the forums by now, but it's not. Go figure eh? 
Improper saddle adjustments can cause tuning instability easy enough. You see, the saddle is made up of 3 main parts. All three parts must be locked tight together or the parts will shift. Simple enough right? There are two areas that need to be very, very (I'll say it again") VERY tight. They are...
# 1 the saddle must be locked tight to the saddle rod or the whole saddle will shift when you bend the string deeply. If this is not kept tight, then the eyelet in the saddle will elongate, and slop in the saddle will develop very quickly. THIS MUST BE TIGHT AT ALL TIMES or permanent saddle damage will occur.
# 2 the intonation Phillips set screw must be tight or a fork will slip around the saddle fork guide. A loose fork will develop "spreaditis", or simply put...the widening of the fork spacing. If the fork spacing is enlarged then it will swivel on the fork guide under heavy sideways pressure. The constant back and forth swiveling of the loose fork, across the saddle fork guide will cause this spreading to happen. It simply gets worse and worse over the years. 
It's rather simple, if the saddle is tight, it will not slip, period. There was simply something wrong with his setup or he simply has metal fatigue from constant wear and tear (probably from pushing the tremolo well beyond its limits for the last 20 years). If you put too much air in the tire, what happens? It bursts! 
I hope this helps you better understand our tremolo systems and what they are capable of. Kahlers are a bridge to a truly better place!





So its your choice whether you want to trust this source, but basically if you're having bending issues, get it set up right, and if its still an issue, return the tremolo. Sometimes even flashy youtube video's with cheesy electronic music can lie.


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## Aled Smith (May 21, 2008)

kahlerusa.com its all on there + these 7's have been out for ages mate.


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## suicidalmoose (May 21, 2008)

Aled Smith said:


> kahlerusa.com its all on there + these 7's have been out for ages mate.



I looked on kahlerusa but I couldn't find any information about the bending issue or the youtube video's claims. I couldn't even find proper set up instructions, though I assume they come with the tremolo. I can restring and float a Floyd Rose from scratch in less than half an hour, so I'm used to that set up but Kahler will be an interesting experiment.


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## Aled Smith (May 22, 2008)

tbh i think Kahlers are better trems anyway, they feel better and last longer as theyre not on those stud things. and its basic physics the more wood you have the better the resonance you loose about 50% more of the wood needed to be removed on a kahler on a floyd so the sound waves cannot travel as far.


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