# Extreme Metal - drums vs guitars



## Oogadee Boogadee (May 19, 2007)

anybody else tired of all these extreme guitarists demanding extreme drumming, but then pairing cop-out half-time picking riffing to the insane blasting? WTF?

/rant

Nile seems to be one of the few that does it right - i'd hate to have to learn the parts from ANYBODY in that band.... even if you knock my metronome down 100bpms.... (270bpm? are you fucking kidding me?)


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## eaeolian (May 19, 2007)

I always thought the drummers drove that.


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## SevenDeadly (May 19, 2007)

Your a drummer I take it?


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## eaeolian (May 19, 2007)

He's a drummer and a guitarist. Talk about setting yourself up for jokes...


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## Seedawakener (May 19, 2007)

Kinda like Hate eternal? Nile are fucking gods though! one of the best shows Ie been to was with them... Such fucking technical brilliance!


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## Metal Ken (May 19, 2007)

Oogadee Boogadee said:


> anybody else tired of all these extreme guitarists demanding extreme drumming, but then pairing cop-out half-time picking riffing to the insane blasting? WTF?



Are you getting requests from that many bands? ;p


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## settite (May 19, 2007)

He only wishes he was


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## Oogadee Boogadee (May 19, 2007)

ha. hell no. i'll never play drums in an extreme metal band. i'm not capable of playing that kinda stuff. i'm super impressed by it though, and i'm a fan of players who can do it for real, and can actually put some force into their playing while doing it.... The number of real Roddy's, Kolias's, Laureano's, and Sandovals, is a pretty small number though. 

that first track on the Mithra's myspace page is a good example of what i'm talking about. Granted, that's the ONLY song i've heard of them so i'm not accusing them of doing all their songs like that. But, look at their band roster. Two guys. The guitarist programs the drums. Maybe he plays them. But if he can play like that, he'd be in pretty high demand as a drummer b/c not many people can execute like that with out studio help.

I've seen my share of 'drummer wanted' adds, stating that 'drummer must be able to play double bass and blast at 250bpm, be tight and focused, play like (insert top extreme metal drummer name here__________), etc" Then you listen to their myspace music and you hear something like the Mithra's song.... crazy drumming under 8th note pull-offs on a guitar. The end result sounds cool, but then you gotta wonder why so many of these adds exist?


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## noodles (May 19, 2007)

Oogadee Boogadee said:


> I've seen my share of 'drummer wanted' adds, stating that 'drummer must be able to play double bass and blast at 250bpm, be tight and focused, play like (insert top extreme metal drummer name here__________), etc" Then you listen to their myspace music and you hear something like the Mithra's song.... crazy drumming under 8th note pull-offs on a guitar. The end result sounds cool, but then you gotta wonder why so many of these adds exist?



Not many of them exist. They just stay around forever because no one can pull it off. 

Just remember these are ads. I can't tell you how many ads I've read that are looking for a lead/rhythm guitarist, must be able to play 3000bpm 6-string arpeggios while brushing your teeth, galloping palm mutes at 2000bpm while mowing the lawn. Usually, when I get to the audition, it is three guys: a bassist who thinks he can play with his fingers but really sounds like he is dragging sausage links across the strings in random patterns, a drummer with three cymbal stands that all fall over when he hits them and the double kick styles of three year old with a hammer, and a vocalists that sounds like he is strangling a cat while running with a box full of aquarium gravel.


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## Oogadee Boogadee (May 19, 2007)

noodles said:


> I can't tell you how many ads I've read that are looking for a lead/rhythm guitarist, must be able to play 3000bpm 6-string arpeggios while brushing your teeth, galloping palm mutes at 2000bpm while mowing the lawn.



you can't do all that?


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## ohio_eric (May 19, 2007)

noodles said:


> Not many of them exist. They just stay around forever because no one can pull it off.
> 
> Just remember these are ads. I can't tell you how many ads I've read that are looking for a lead/rhythm guitarist, must be able to play 3000bpm 6-string arpeggios while brushing your teeth, galloping palm mutes at 2000bpm while mowing the lawn. Usually, when I get to the audition, it is three guys: a bassist who thinks he can play with his fingers but really sounds like he is dragging sausage links across the strings in random patterns, a drummer with three cymbal stands that all fall over when he hits them and the double kick styles of three year old with a hammer, and a vocalists that sounds like he is strangling a cat while running with a box full of aquarium gravel.





The funniest band video ever was one of my buddy's bands. They had a drummer who insisted on using his marching band sticks and it just sounded awful. Plus he wasn't really a very good drummer. But during the whole video the guitar player keeps rolling his eyes and getting more and more pissed off. When you're not in the band shitty musicians are lots of fun to watch.


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## noodles (May 19, 2007)

Oogadee Boogadee said:


> you can't do all that?



No, but I do have a pedal that I can step on and make the entire front row die.


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## D-EJ915 (May 19, 2007)

people get caught up with going fast all the time, if you've got insane double bass drum going all the time it doesn't sound impressive, but if you have some single drum things going on in there too then kick it into high gear it sounds much more impressive...


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## eleven59 (May 19, 2007)

D-EJ915 said:


> people get caught up with going fast all the time, if you've got insane double bass drum going all the time it doesn't sound impressive, but if you have some single drum things going on in there too then kick it into high gear it sounds much more impressive...



 One thing I like about Gene Hogland in SYL is that he's usually pretty intense on the kicks (though he backs off occasionally), but then he goes even faster and more intense


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 22, 2007)

eaeolian said:


> He's a drummer and a guitarist. Talk about setting yourself up for jokes...





Oh, so he's a drummer AND a musician


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## Zepp88 (May 22, 2007)

I completely agree with the OP, overly complex "extreme" technical riff raff, repetitive, annoying, uninspired breakdowns, etc. <--That shit sucks.

Nile rules, their new album is just amazing!


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## eaeolian (May 22, 2007)

noodles said:


> the double kick styles of three year old with a hammer



I wouldn't underestimate that. Especially not when there's a vintage Les Paul around.


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## eaeolian (May 22, 2007)

noodles said:


> No, but I do have a pedal that I can step on and make the entire front row die.



I thought that was just your breath after a bottle of Basil's the night before? 

James is really making a good point here, though - this has all become ridiculous. You have people programming drum parts that maybe 20-30 people on the entire planet can play for their album, and then they try and find someone to play it live. I don't get it, but then again I write music for my band to sound good, not to show how extreme I can be...


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## Zepp88 (May 22, 2007)

eaeolian said:


> I thought that was just your breath after a bottle of Basil's the night before?
> 
> James is really making a good point here, though - this has all become ridiculous. You have people programming drum parts that maybe 20-30 people on the entire planet can play for their album, and then they try and find someone to play it live. I don't get it, but then again I write music for my band to sound good, not to show how extreme I can be...


 

^^^ word


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## lailer75 (May 22, 2007)

here`s a prime example www.myspace.com/necropia


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## WarriorOfMetal (May 22, 2007)

see, that's part of why my band Recently Vacated Graves: True Zombie Metal plays with programmed drums live, and has no intention of getting a live drummer. we can do whatever ridiculous shit we want with drums on the albums, and then replicate it perfectly live every time


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## Drew (May 22, 2007)

noodles said:


> No, but I do have a pedal that I can step on and make the entire front row die.



What, "solo boost" on the Roadster? Or are you talking about turning the "tuner bypass" off? 


I kind of dig the halftime-against-full-time thing, but on both ends - full tempo drums against half time guitars sounds badass, but so does halftime drums against normal tempo guitars. It's even cooler if you mix them. 

So, I think I just agreed with you.


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## Variant (May 22, 2007)

Drew said:


> I kind of dig the halftime-against-full-time thing, but on both ends - full tempo drums against half time guitars sounds badass, but so does halftime drums against normal tempo guitars. It's even cooler if you mix them.
> 
> So, I think I just agreed with you.



Depends on the goals of the music... I'd say. Sure there are some lazy guitarists out there, but a lot of death metal is just that, fast, blasting drums with slower guitar riffs... a lot of thrash metal was the exact opposite.  Then you've got bands like Nile, Suffocation, and Dark Tranquillity that do a good job of pairing frantic guitar riffing with equally frantic drumming. My personal goal as a musician is to try to best work with what I've got, the limits of myself and those who I work with, and to be realistic about it... but that's just me. I'm not demanding of much.


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## Drew (May 22, 2007)

See, I'm more into prog-y stuff with a lot of different influences coming in, so I guess it makes sense I'd like to be able to go back and forth from faster doubletime stuff to halftime stuff to god knows what we could come up with.


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## Variant (May 22, 2007)

Drew said:


> See, I'm more into prog-y stuff with a lot of different influences coming in, so I guess it makes sense I'd like to be able to go back and forth from faster doubletime stuff to halftime stuff to god knows what we could come up with.



Yeah... same here, lots of progressive rock (both contemporary and classic) and on top of that a particular affinity for industrial/electronic music, and world music with their sequenced and layered patterns not necessarily indicative of traditional drumming. I'd need two drummers, a dedicated percussionist, and a sequencer just to put together some of the stuff that I've got bouncing around in my head.


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## Oogadee Boogadee (May 22, 2007)

before i moved to VA and hooked up with Division, I had this short-lived pipe dream of being an extreme metal drummer. Sandoval and Barker.... two sons-o-bitches that I thought were freakin awesome (still do).

anyway, no practice... job hunt... work..... no practice.... find a home.... move.... no practice.... get a new job... blah blah.. join a power metal band.... blah blah... so the extreme drumming thing didn't happen. but i was still a fan (and still am, in some really selective ways)

so now (late 2003) i'm in my first metal band and i'm jumping into the world of metal drumming and finding out what it's all about. I get to see drummers live, research different shit on the internet from gear to techniques to you-name-it, reading fly-on-the-wall accounts of recording sessions of some well-known names, etc...... i began to realize how much fabrication is going on..... how fake the drumming was in the studio... and even live, b/c of insane triggering, and insane volumes hiding feet flams and stuff..... I'm sure a part of me is defending my experience of failing short of that goal I had by cracking on drummers who completely depend on triggers in order to put on a show...... but oh well, even if i'm jealous of what they can do, there is still truth to the statement.......

anyway, I've said it before - i totally fell in love with drums all over again when I rediscovered Lombardo... and how he recorded classics, on tape, by hitting hard, with rickety pedals and microphones..... and how he can do it now, better than ever! Relax, hit like you mean it, and flow. Totally turned my life around.

anyway, not to derail my own thread... but to tie it together.... his shit is real. a lot of these insane guitarists writing insane beats at insane tempos might find *a* session dude to do it in the studio, but, they probably wont and will just doctor the shit out of whoever they find. it's almost like compromising the artist, for the sake of an art..... which, in a way, lost its artistic value when a machine had to do a major part of it.


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## Oogadee Boogadee (May 22, 2007)

my boobs are ok


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## Variant (May 23, 2007)

Toontrack


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## Ancestor (May 25, 2007)

noodles said:


> Usually, when I get to the audition, it is three guys: a bassist who thinks he can play with his fingers but really sounds like he is dragging sausage links across the strings in random patterns, a drummer with three cymbal stands that all fall over when he hits them and the double kick styles of three year old with a hammer, and a vocalists that sounds like he is strangling a cat while running with a box full of aquarium gravel.



 Damn, that's good.

To me, it sounds better if it's either the drummer or guitarist that's playing super fast. Both together is usually a mess. Kind of like you don't really want the bass to play the same as the guitar and same with the vocals. Everyone should be playing a different part usually. 

All I have ever wanted from a drummer is a consistent tempo. If you can't play 32 kicks a measure, play 16. If you can't play 16, play 8. But if you would be so kind, don't make me be the time keeper. That's not my job.


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 25, 2007)

Someone said to me that this is the decade of the drummers shredding like the guitarists did in the 80's, about technical drumming proficiency.

FOr me, personally, I'd say 220 really is an upper limit as to speed I'd want to go, as that is stupidly fast, in fact, 200bpm is already fast enough, and 180-190 is still fast as well.

250-270? Getting towards the realm of just being able to do it rather than musicality, groove, or swing. And once in the studio, just try nailing that trem picked riff at that speed, matching the kicks up exactly whilst still putting enough power into the guitar picking to make it sounds like you mean it, rather than a wet blanket tone with no aggression.

Staying tight at that speed, and making it sound good live is just plain stupidly hard, and the slightest echo in the hall will just kill anything you are trying to achieve.

Plus, blasting bands usually end up dull as fuck, with no dynamic, just extreme, and when it's extreme all the way through, it is no longer extreme, as there is nothing to compare the extremety to, and thus you end up desensitised to it, and thus, you lose the point of it being extreme, in my opinion.


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## eaeolian (May 25, 2007)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Plus, blasting bands usually end up dull as fuck, with no dynamic, just extreme, and when it's extreme all the way through, it is no longer extreme, as there is nothing to compare the extremety to, and thus you end up desensitised to it, and thus, you lose the point of it being extreme, in my opinion.



 I get bored with that incredibly quickly.


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## Oogadee Boogadee (May 25, 2007)

7 Dying Trees said:


> Someone said to me that this is the decade of the drummers shredding like the guitarists did in the 80's, about technical drumming proficiency.



i don't think so. There are still only a few Langs/Colaiutas/Minnemans/etc around.... guys who truely do this stuff and are solid players who don't depend on editing and triggers. They can sit an any kit and show you it's them, not the gear.

In the 80's, you had your guitar heros, and you had your shredding bedroom jammers...... I don't think our drumming bedroom drummers are quite up to par yet, as far as clean execution. 

I think one of the hardest things for a drummer is controlling dynamic (hitting hard on fast parts, softer on slow parts, for example, to achieve even dynamic). It's hard for me to observe myself on this, but I think it's safe to say that I'm far from getting to where I need to be. And this has nothing to do with my tempos, meter consistency, part complexity, mood projection, creativity, etc!!!

I believe that, because of extreme editing, and a chase for high-tempos, the quest to become an awesome well-rounded drummer has been totally derailed and it's not going to recover anytime soon. Triggers have let drummers get away with lighter hitting on stage and in the studio in a quest for speed, editing has pulled a blanket over all types of stuff, etc etc.... 

This decade is simply the decade for pro-tools and DFH..... I think it's going to make those of us who're following the solid path more of a hot commodity.... which is good for me.... b/c like it was just stated, if you can't do 32nd's at 120bpm, do it at 90, or do triplet 16ths, or whatever.... but EXECUTE IT!


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## Naren (May 26, 2007)

I agree a lot with what's being said in this thread. Some things that have been said remind me of something in my own band. We have a song where the drummer is playing blast beats at 210 bpm for about 15 seconds while me and the other guitarist are playing trem-picked thirty-second notes at about 210 bpm while I'm singing/growling over that and then suddenly the drums go into a regular type beat, still at 210 bpm, but now very smooth, while the guitars are playing power chords and arpeggios at almost a gallop. The drummer has no problem playing the blasts, but the bass player can't play the trem-picked 32nd notes, so he plays them as 16th notes. It still sounds good. And, lately he's been trying it by playing just the root notes as 16th notes instead of playing all the same notes as us. And that sounds good too. 

We had written this one song before we had a drummer that had insane psychotic double bass. Now, with a real drummer, he does some pretty cool double bass and I kinda like his version better than the programmed one, but it isn't as insane as the one we had made before. Me and the other guitarist always tell the drummer, "Hey, we aren't drummers. This is just the general kinda drums we were visualizing, but change them anyway you want. This is just so you can get an idea." And oftentimes he changes the drums a lot from what we had in mind.


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## Matt Crooks (May 29, 2007)

noodles said:


> ... Usually, when I get to the audition, it is three guys: a bassist who thinks he can play with his fingers but really sounds like he is dragging sausage links across the strings in random patterns, a drummer with three cymbal stands that all fall over when he hits them and the double kick styles of three year old with a hammer, and a vocalists that sounds like he is strangling a cat while running with a box full of aquarium gravel.



Mike was there too, right?


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## eaeolian (May 30, 2007)

Matt Crooks said:


> Mike was there too, right?



That took you long enough.


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## Matt Crooks (May 30, 2007)

eaeolian said:


> That took you long enough.



I've been too busy to be a smartass.


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 30, 2007)

I think a lot of this drive for speed has killed people's drive to write a good song, In a lot of cases it's like a sport, endurance and speed. But I don't like listening to sport.

Having a song is way more important than the speed it's played at. To me, it's like most fans of extreme musicianship are musicians themselves rather than joe public, who may think it's awesome because of the speed, but not because of the tunes.


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## eaeolian (May 30, 2007)

Good point. I also think too many people confuse speed and energy - you can be very energetic in your playing without having to be fast...


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## 7 Dying Trees (May 30, 2007)

eaeolian said:


> Good point. I also think too many people confuse speed and energy - you can be very energetic in your playing without having to be fast...


I actually think extreme speed detracts from energy. When it's all precision, you end up removing the rawness and power that gives you energy, in so far that speed means less movememnt, less "mass" when hitting the strings. I also think with extremem speed you just lose heaviness, just becomes mush when trying to combine the two.


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## Oogadee Boogadee (May 30, 2007)

I'll always admire extreme speed from a player who can hit hard enough to get good tones from a real acoustic kit. I think Lombardo may be one of the fastest hard-hitters out there. I'm sure there are plenty who hit slightly lighter, and go slightly faster. That's the range I like there..... really impressive. Grip Inc records rule because of the acoustic drum tones... huge drum sounds. INC was done in all analogue. It sounds great.


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## Jongpil Yun (May 30, 2007)

lailer75 said:


> here`s a prime example www.myspace.com/necropia


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## Rayder (Jun 1, 2007)

> Plus, blasting bands usually end up dull as fuck, with no dynamic, just extreme, and when it's extreme all the way through, it is no longer extreme, as there is nothing to compare the extremety to, and thus you end up desensitised to it, and thus, you lose the point of it being extreme, in my opinion



i guess that is probably why things started getting faster and faster in the first place. its probably also why things like tunings and vocals got heavier and heavier too. it just gets to a point where its just about being faster or lower-tuned or more growly than everyone else


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## 7 Dying Trees (Jun 1, 2007)

Rayder said:


> i guess that is probably why things started getting faster and faster in the first place. its probably also why things like tunings and vocals got heavier and heavier too. it just gets to a point where its just about being faster or lower-tuned or more growly than everyone else



Kind of like an ever expanding pissing competition! It is, to me, one of those things where people are just trying to outdo each other for the sake of it. It's kind of like one guy will raise the bar, and the next will see it as a challenge.


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## Rayder (Jun 1, 2007)

it would never happen, but if everyone realised that you can be a heavy metal band, you just dont have to go to Drop Z, have vocals be a 2nd bass player and play at 300bpm to get there. personally, i like vocalists who can actually sing. No, not like opera  think of Disturbed, Godsmack, and to a certain extent, Flaw. i also like to hear what the band members are playing on their instruments. sure, going fast can sound good, but like what was mentioned before, if it is all fast, it gets boring quick. dont forget, metal can be musical, you know...


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