# TMG Guitars ... The new BRJ?



## ricknasty1985 (Jul 6, 2014)

Ok I'll start off with a quick story.

So well over 13/14 months ago I'm in my tech's shared workshop getting some pup swaps and setups on a couple of my guitars when a man by the name of Taylor is showing a couple of guys some necks and complete guitars. I listen in and hear them spec-ing out a guitar, my ears tuned in as one week earlier I was ready to drop a deposit on a Wirebird but was asked to wait a month till some personal business in his life was resolved. As the guys leave I ask this guy 'Taylor' if he builds custom guitars in which he tells me the story how he can build the guitar of my dreams, like a real salesman haha 

Anyways I check out a couple of guitars myself and looooved them. I told him how I had money put away for a Wirebird and if we could spec something out I'd love to have him get a build going for me... $3000.

I drop $1500 deposit on the very spot as like every luthier I would have to pay the rest on completion which I'm told is 3-4 months (I expected longer obviously)

A few weeks go buy and I get a pic of my body, gorgeous.

A few months go by and nothing, no communication and all txt messages go unanswered.

Then I receive a phone call from Taylor saying my guitar is almost done and asks for my final payment. Naturally I'm all excited and have him charge my account.

So then a month goes by and I see randomly on their INSTAGRAM that they are moving the company out to Fullerton CA. So before they cross the world I start sending some frequent messages asking if my guitar is done and when I will receive it. I'm fed lies over and over again.

A few more months go by and they actually do operate on the other side of the world with a few dealers and I start to see people complaining just as I was. 

CUT IT SHORT... Taylor/TMG release a YouTube vid saying they will do the right thing by customers, they aren't lying, they aren't taking peoples money, they aren't partscaster's etc.

I am lied to more about my build so I ask kindly for it all to stop, I'd like a full refund... And now communication is being completely ignored and I'm not really sure how to go about it.

fvck.


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## MoshJosh (Jul 6, 2014)

How did you pay? Might be able to do a charge back if you used a card (at least on the final payment.)


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## Esp Griffyn (Jul 6, 2014)

Please tell me you didn't pay $3000 for one of these. These look like luthier school projects, and not even great ones at that. Ask for a refund and pray you get your money back.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...143934.-2207520000.1404653999.&type=3&theater

Being a luthier, building custom instruments seems to be a minefield. There are ones who are good at building guitars, and others who are good at running a business, the ones who are good at both are few and far between. It seems so common (though I accept that ss.org, with it's propensity towards niche instruments from niche builders skews my perception) that these flash in the pan names pop up, take more orders than they can build and then sail off into the sunset with people's money.


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## Dyingsea (Jul 6, 2014)

You need to read the recent thread on thegearpage about this guy. He got totally exposed over there.


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## Tesla (Jul 6, 2014)

Dyingsea said:


> You need to read the recent thread on thegearpage about this guy. He got totally exposed over there.



Link here.


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## Joshua (Jul 6, 2014)

I live right next to Fullerton, so I'll try to spread the word a little if I can.


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## xCaptainx (Jul 6, 2014)

What on earth were you thinking, handing over $1500 to someone you just met with absolutely no testimonials about their business or work?


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## xCaptainx (Jul 6, 2014)

Plus you don't tell a salesman what your budget is straight away! The dude would have seen dollar signs instantly. 

"Oh your budget is $3000? Well that's a coincidence, this product I happen to sell is EXACTLY three grand! How convenient!" 

The guys taken you for a ride, which sounds like it was very easy to do. Play your cards closer to your chest next time. Really hard lesson to learn there.


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## ricknasty1985 (Jul 7, 2014)

No I think you mis-understood, I never told him how much I was planning on spending... I inquired and asked all the questions first, got the specs together. I played guitars... I spent a good couple of hours there while my guitars were being worked on by a tech in there. 

I never stated my budget and he had never told me the price on the guitar till the end. I am no dummy... Hell he was with 2 other guys who had builds in progress showing them necks and asking what they think of the work done.

I've commissioned a couple of builds in the past and bought a few guitars over the passed couple of years without even having the chance to see one in person, just on reputation... let alone sit with the so called luthiers and play around with their work.


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## Edika (Jul 7, 2014)

By reading the 23 pages on the thread in the gear page I'm sorry to inform you that this guy is a very good con artist. It also seems he was selling partcaster guitars from MJT and not actual customs. Your only options is either trying to get your money back if you paid by credit card, legal action to get your money back if you made a bank transfer or just accept you lost $3000. 

The pedal scam is so well constructed. I'm sure they copied a well known circuit and manufactured it for a fraction of the cost in a third world country and charged $315 for it. What I'm not sure if they sent them intentionally defective or if it was just crappy manufacturing. The first case would be even more Machiavellian as the repair seemed quite easy (a defective cap). All customers mailed the pedal back at their expense to TMG and they never got them back. So that would mean they repaired and resold them making a huge profit twice!


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## JoeyW (Jul 7, 2014)

It's amazing and a huge bummer how many stories like this there are, and unfortunately there is seldom many successful options. If you know who Darrin Huff is, thats been going on for over ten years.


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## Vhyle (Jul 7, 2014)

Stories like these are why I am so skeptical about ordering customs at all, honestly. I mean, I don't have the cash for it regardless, but even if I did, I really don't know. These kinds of hardship tales make me happy that I can become so complacent with inexpensive gear. I've been playing the same BC Rich Platinum Beast for about 10 years now, and I still love it. It's everything I need in a 6-string. My 7321 cost me a mere $200, and it's absolutely everything I need in a 7-string. It does exactly what I need it to do.

Don't get me wrong - I have a great appreciation for the incredible artwork, detail and craftsmanship that go into these customs. I'm personally a fan of the works from Daemoness, Ormsby, Hutchinson, Huf, and a couple others. They're phenomenal. But do I NEED one from those guys? No, I don't think so, when my current gear does everything I need it to do.


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## Humbuck (Jul 7, 2014)

It's not always about need.

Google search "BoBburst" if you wanna hear some bullshit.


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## TRENCHLORD (Jul 7, 2014)

Anymore (especially! these days) ;
IMO it's very wise to just stick with the main brands for custom and/or custom-shop production run models.
At the end of the day (or years in most cases here), it ends up getting done just as quickly, with more precision, and for comparable prices by the mainstream custom shops.

There's some good reliable small shops, but they seem to be the exception rather than the norm anymore.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 7, 2014)

My dear lord that TGP thread is a soap opera.

Just missing the long lost twin with an eye patch.


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## Forkface (Jul 7, 2014)

ricknasty1985 said:


> I am no dummy...



Im sorry but this made me laugh pretty hard. 


Sad that this happened to you OP, but as capitan said, time to bite the bullet.


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## Demiurge (Jul 7, 2014)

Read the Gear Page thread (well, a portion of it)- wow. This company target markets church bands, too. Aren't they even a _little_ concerned that there might be a hell?


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## LLink2411 (Jul 8, 2014)

That thread is not the end of it. In total, there are *2241 posts* about it on TGP alone.


Part 1 (already linked):
My terrible experience with Taylor McGrath Guitars and their DRHIVE pedal - The Gear Page

1034 posts.


Part 2:
Taylor McGrath Guitars (TMG) Part II: The Saga Continues - The Gear Page

1001 posts.


Part 3:
Taylor McGrath Guitars (TMG) Part III: The return of DRH - The Gear Page

184 posts.


"Class Action" Thread:
Taylor McGrath Guitars (TMG) Class Action Group - The Gear Page

22 posts.



Not to mention a highly devoted cult of TMG followers on Instagram:
TaylorMcGrath.com TMG @taylormcgrathguitars Instagram photos | Websta


Also, an "in-house interview" done by TMG themselves to "discuss" the issue (yes, the video was made private):
TMG Interview: Taylor Answers Questions Of Controversy From The Gear Page, TMG's silence is finally broken in a 45 minute interview - Sonic State Amped

I saw a transcript from the video earlier today when I was googling and didn't even know about the controversy, but I cannot find it now that I am specifically looking for it. Oh well.


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## ricknasty1985 (Jul 8, 2014)

Forkface said:


> Im sorry but this made me laugh pretty hard.
> 
> 
> Sad that this happened to you OP, but as capitan said, time to bite the bullet.



No need for the apology, I obviously made a very wrong decision... Now we'll see how this unfolds which I'll let you know.


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## Timelesseer (Jul 8, 2014)

After seeing thread after thread like this on here for the few years that I've been active here, I can safely say that I'll never order a full on custom from anyone except maybe Ormsby since he's so active on this site with calling out other luthiers bullshit haha. I've owned a few S7Gs second hand and an Acacia (both have bad rep on here) and while they've all been nice and mostly quality guitars, the wait times and sheer uncertainty on if you'll ever even receive them if you order new is just scary to me. I hope things work out for you man, I couldn't imagine being in your position.


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## canuck brian (Jul 8, 2014)

Really sorry that this happened to you man. I read thru the posts (and that took a while) and it's mindboggling how easily someone can decide to prey on other people. 

Being where you are located and if you go down the custom guitar route again, talk to Perry Ormsby. Ormsby Guitars


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## Vhyle (Jul 8, 2014)

Holy shit.


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## jwade (Jul 8, 2014)

I've never heard of this company before, but from the pictures, I don't know how anyone would possibly see this builder as anything more than a $500 ebay 'put it together yourself!' builder. I see significantly higher quality shit being done by 19-22 year olds at school every month out here on the island.


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## Jason2112 (Jul 8, 2014)

LLink2411 said:


> That thread is not the end of it. In total, there are *2241 posts* about it on TGP alone.



To be fair, there's only less than 100 or so posts that are relevant, the rest is rehashed nonsense. However, they managed to dig up a lot of info on Antonio/Taylor/McGrath exposing him for a bigger fraud than most people expected.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 8, 2014)

Jason2112 said:


> To be fair, there's only less than 100 or so posts that are relevant, the rest is rehashed nonsense. However, they managed to dig up a lot of info on Antonio/Taylor/McGrath exposing him for a bigger fraud than most people expected.


That is a ratio of 22.14 bits of nonsese to 1 bit of relevance (1107 to 50 if you like rational numbers) or 4.52% chance of a post being relevant.

If that logic is used, then that thread saga still has a higher nonsense-to-relevant ratio than this entire site.


I like those odds. TGP has the best witch hunts.

One of the characters in the thread half came out as a private eye. He spends half his posts saying he has info he can't tell everyone, other half of the time trolling anyone who has anything nice or measured to say about the subject. That is a grade A gimmick.

Then this other guy is the one who came out of the blue to drop all the identity-change info on the crowd because he let it slip he was one of the people who was screwed out of thousands of dollars from the guy's past-life and is now close to broke. He wants to see Tony burn because he and his kids are having a hard time and he wants some "satisfaction" of seeing the guy burn. He apparently has been sitting in this I for for years, waiting to strike.

I could go on, there are a lot of strange happenings there, and TGP keeps the mood light and respectful throughout the process.


No witch hunt on here is like that. The BRJ debacle was like a funeral mixed with some bro-ing.


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## Jason2112 (Jul 9, 2014)

I got a kick out of the guy who did the video for TMG for free, said he knew Antonio wasn't 100% honest, said he felt bad for all the people that got hosed by him, and STILL thinks Antonio is a great person who is in the midst of turning his life around. I swear, you surround yourself with enough gullible people like that and you too can be a successful con artist just like Antonio/David/McGrath/whateverthefuqhisrealnameis.


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## RustInPeace (Jul 9, 2014)

What a soap opera. I feel bad for those who have lost their money. On the other hand, there are those who claim his guitars are actually pretty killer.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 9, 2014)

RustInPeace said:


> What a soap opera. I feel bad for those who have lost their money. On the other hand, there are those who claim his guitars are actually pretty killer.



It seems the man himself is trying to reconcile his "old" life with his "new" one.


Maybe he is making "good" guitars, or maybe he is like BRJ and he is making average guitars marketed to people who don't know better.

He also left paying customers hanging for a long while and is selling strat copies with supposedly cheap parts at a severe premium.


He maybe trying to make up for breaking bad in this younger years, but he is who he is at the end of the day (for better or worse).


Also, I find it funny the Bethel mega church likes his guitars. That is like grade A irony as Tony and the Johnson family seem to be cut from the same cloth.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 10, 2014)

I've been reading the TGP threads for the last 3 days while I'm on vacation.....Goddamn!!

Here's the 45 minute video, for those interested-

[YOUTUBEVID]o3AoVwSEiBg[/YOUTUBEVID]

I'm going to share a story from my past that won't paint me in a positive light, but it ties in with this guy-

When I was 15, my dad had a girlfriend who hated me....the feeling was mutual. I saw her credit card on a table one day and copied the number/exp date down, for no real reason/motive. Fast forward several months and I move from her house to my mother's house a few states away, I'm hanging at a friend's house and find the CC# in my wallet....just wanted to see if it'd work, so I bought some Dream Theater CD's online...

.....they were delivered and not a question ever arose. So I did it again. And again. I got ballsy, decided to order a Bad Horsey wah pedal. Sweetwater calls my house to confirm my order. I wasn't home, my mom got the call. She flipped. She knew nothing of where the card came from, how I had access to a credit card, so she was obviously curious why this company was calling.

I just stayed calm and said, "Must have been a mistake, I don't have a credit card, obviously." That didn't do it for her, so she called my father.....UPS shows up while we're all on the phone and drops off another box of CD's.....

"Nope, not me. Must be my stepbrother trying to set me up." (Not too unlikely at the time). I was so casual and collected during this, that my own parents believed me. I had empty boxes from CDNow.com all over my room and my excuse for having them? "My birthday is coming up, I just figured dad got me these CD's early."

Eventually, my mom got the CC# from Sweetwater and she read it to my dad over the phone as he was looking over past bills....they put two and two together....I stayed just as calm as before.

Then UPS showed up and delivered the wah pedal. Obviously no confusion on the phone previously. This ordeal lasted a week and a half and I was just sick of them nagging me about it, so I admitted to it.

Sure, they were pissed about the CC thing and I had to get a job to pay her back, which I did, but they were MUCH more concerned with my sociopath behavior. The way I had all the evidence against me and I just matter-of-fact-ly denied it. 

So when I watch this video, I think back to that time and I see my 15 year old pathological liar/sociopath self sitting there answering questions.

If this dude has done no wrong and has his heart into this TMG thing, he'd be rip shit pissed that his name is getting dragged through the mud. He's calm and collected because he knows every single accusation already and believes that if he remains calm, then people will believe there's nothing to worry about. 

It took me until my mid-20's and hitting rock bottom to leave that part of my personality behind. I was the biggest bullshitter I knew until then. I even believed my own bullshit. Thankfully, I can smell it immediately these days. This Taylor Tony David Antonio dude is a giant pile of bullshit.


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## Forkface (Jul 10, 2014)

RevDrucifer said:


> damn good story 10/10 would read again



Wow, that's some story right there, i enjoyed reading it, thank you for sharing  Good that you changed your life around man  

and back to the video, didnt watch it all, but it seems exactly what you say. Trying to stay calm while bullshiting through the questions...


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## Edika (Jul 10, 2014)

In the 24th minute he mentions that after the termination letter they supposedly received from Fender they had to burn all their stock? That sounds like a load of crap. If they issue were the headstocks that could be easily altered. 
I don't have any experience in these situations so maybe it's like he's saying so, it just seems a little extreme.


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## IbanezDaemon (Jul 10, 2014)

I don't get how the guy goes from working in a pie shop
to making, in his own words, the best guitars on the planet.

Who did he train under?? Where did he get all this experience from?
I think I read somewhere that he claimed to have built guitars for Vai
and EVH.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 10, 2014)

IbanezDaemon said:


> I don't get how the guy goes from working in a pie shop
> to making, in his own words, the best guitars on the planet.
> 
> Who did he train under?? Where did he get all this experience from?
> ...



Indeed. Supposedly a protege of Thomas Nordegg, at least that's what he claimed in the picture he posted on Instagram of himself and Nordegg standing next to each other, adding, "Stay tuned" at the end, as if something was in the works between the two....

......but someone on TGP got a hold of Nordegg, showed him the picture and asked about the friendship, Nordegg replied, "It was a guy who asked me for a picture at the L.A. Pedal Expo."

If you've got the time and want to be blown away by the amount of BS spewed from this guy, go check out the TGP threads. Those guys did some serious detective work and while there are plenty with pitch forks just joining the hunt, there were plenty who came up with legitimate examples of his lies.

-Posted a picture of a CNC machine and said "Our CNC working hard"
Someone on TGP found a video from Musikraft's factory, it's the exact same CNC machine/location as the picture TMG posted.

-Posted a picture of the back of some vintage looking PAF's claiming they were TMG's new pick-ups, which someone on TGP found a page discussing the history of PAF's with the exact same picture of a vintage set of PAF's as an example of what they used to look like.

No one would burn their stock of finished necks. That's just _stupid_. No one would literally burn thousands of dollars in product/time invested like that. Especially when a simple alteration could have solved the entire problem.


The most telling thing that this guy is still up to his games is that guy Connor on TGP who did nothing but praise TMG until he finally got the wrong guitar delivered to him. Can't remember all the details, but the guy was offered a guitar and a pedal to be sent to him, while taking a night to think it over, he sent an email the next day saying he'd take the guitar/pedal (I'm guessing instead of a refund), only to find that Taylor already sold the guitar/pedal he was offered.

I think the guy in the interview with him had good intentions and got himself caught in a ton of shit. That Taylor dude is marrying his sister and the guy helped get Taylor into the US by vouching for him with the government. He defended him to no end on TGP and then disappeared after it became apparent that nothing was changing.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 11, 2014)

IbanezDaemon said:


> I don't get how the guy goes from working in a pie shop
> to making, in his own words, the best guitars on the planet.
> 
> Who did he train under?? Where did he get all this experience from?
> ...


He was infamous on the JEM forums for ripping people off on eBay with fake Vai signature listings.

He even got arrested for it.


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## jwade (Jul 11, 2014)

Oh shit, he's THAT guy? Jesus, didn't he get charged with like 15 counts of fraud for that?


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## LLink2411 (Jul 11, 2014)

jwade said:


> Oh shit, he's THAT guy? Jesus, didn't he get charged with like 15 counts of fraud for that?


He got off free under the pretense that he never used eBay again.


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## MUTANTOID (Jul 11, 2014)

LLink2411 said:


> He got off free under the pretense that he never used eBay again.



I'm not sure if that was a joke, but I'm laughing either way.


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## asher (Jul 11, 2014)

Though I think being the new BRJ requires having an established brand and customer base to shit all over. But this guy is kind of incredible. Wow.

I am sorry though dude.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 11, 2014)

The more I read the thread saga the more unsympathetic the TGP posters get.

After a point it is very clear they are just a lunch mob out for a laugh. They don't seem to care what happens or if anything gets better, they like the free target.



MUTANTOID said:


> I'm not sure if that was a joke, but I'm laughing either way.



This whole thing is a joke

And what I said was true


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## Jason2112 (Jul 11, 2014)

asher said:


> Though I think being the new BRJ requires having an established brand and customer base to shit all over. But this guy is kind of incredible. Wow.
> 
> I am sorry though dude.



Bernie had his name AND his dad's legacy to crap all over. This guy has nothing but his over-inflated self-worth.


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## Jason2112 (Jul 11, 2014)

LLink2411 said:


> The more I read the thread saga the more unsympathetic the TGP posters get.
> 
> After a point it is very clear they are just a lunch mob out for a laugh. They don't seem to care what happens or if anything gets better, they like the free target.



Most everyone in those threads have been pretty restrained due to Brian's heavy hand with the forum rules. I don't know if you saw the follow-up to that guy Conner that was initially praising TMG and was expecting a brand new goldtop guitar, only to receive a sunburst guitar built in 2012. Then Antonio/David/Taylor came back to TGP to say that Conner had never paid a down payment on the goldtop and the deal was for a trade (not a cash sale). Then TMG offered to reverse the trade but when Conner agreed, they told him they sold his amps, yet someone else posted that they saw Conner's amps in TMG's music room after that. Daytime soap operas can't compete with this kind of drama! I really can't blame the TGP crowd for continuing the assault, TMG deserves it.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 11, 2014)

Jason2112 said:


> Most everyone in those threads have been pretty restrained due to Brian's heavy hand with the forum rules. I don't know if you saw the follow-up to that guy Conner that was initially praising TMG and was expecting a brand new goldtop guitar, only to receive a sunburst guitar built in 2012. Then Antonio/David/Taylor came back to TGP to say that Conner had never paid a down payment on the goldtop and the deal was for a trade (not a cash sale). Then TMG offered to reverse the trade but when Conner agreed, they told him they sold his amps, yet someone else posted that they saw Conner's amps in TMG's music room after that. Daytime soap operas can't compete with this kind of drama! I really can't blame the TGP crowd for continuing the assault, TMG deserves it.



This was all *before* that though, during a lull in the action.

Spoilers, man. I'm barely into season 2.


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## RevDrucifer (Jul 11, 2014)

I don't blame the TGP guys for going off. Witch hunts happen when people go after another party based on a theory, this dude is indeed a piece of shit and had it not been for everyone uncovering more and more details, he could have slipped by fairly unnoticed. 

Also, those threads getting that much attention/visits will start bringing them up in Google searches, so if any future prospective buyer does some research, they'll get a glimpse of what they're getting into.


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## Floppystrings (Jul 12, 2014)

This trem...that crooked inlay...







$3000? Unreal.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 12, 2014)

They sell relic'd strat and tele copies.


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## LLink2411 (Jul 12, 2014)

RevDrucifer said:


> I don't blame the TGP guys for going off. Witch hunts happen when people go after another party based on a theory, this dude is indeed a piece of shit and had it not been for everyone uncovering more and more details, he could have slipped by fairly unnoticed.
> 
> Also, those threads getting that much attention/visits will start bringing them up in Google searches, so if any future prospective buyer does some research, they'll get a glimpse of what they're getting into.


There is nothing good or justified about 90% of the hate in that thread as it is mostly people who have never ordered from TMG just having a go for the fun of it. Guys like CRT don't seem to have any dog in the race, they are just playing private eye and troll out of boredom. Notice how the people who are actually waiting for instruments are conspicuously absent from the pitchfork waving or are very civil about it all?

Someone said jbodker left after TMG did not change their ways, I say he left because he was used as the closest thing to a punching bag by these posters I am speaking of.


It is not a pretty thread. Both sides are full of it. TMG is undeniably dubious in his ways of going about "business," but that is no excuse to act like jackasses. The soluton to dealing with a bad person is to not be one yourself.


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## Floppystrings (Jul 12, 2014)

LLink2411 said:


> Notice how the people who are actually waiting for instruments are conspicuously absent from the pitchfork waving or are very civil about it all?



They are scared to say anything because they have money involved.

btw, the correct route is to quietly contact a lawyer, and be very civil to the person that won't give you what you paid for. More e-mails = more evidence.


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## Grand Moff Tim (Jul 12, 2014)

We've seen a paying customer get dropped from a popular luthier's build list for voicing his displeasure on a thread right here on SSO, so I could hardly fault people for wanting to keep quiet about it when they've still got money tied up in it .


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## LLink2411 (Jul 12, 2014)

Floppystrings said:


> They are scared to say anything because they have money involved.
> 
> btw, the correct route is to quietly contact a lawyer, and be very civil to the person that won't give you what you paid for. More e-mails = more evidence.





Grand Moff Tim said:


> We've seen a paying customer get dropped from a popular luthier's build list for voicing his displeasure on a thread right here on SSO, so I could hardly fault people for wanting to keep quiet about it when they've still got money tied up in it .


I took it more as a way you should follow suit.

A guy that has a lot on the line has the balls to keep quiet, civil, and just to the facts. Why can't people who have no horse in the race do the same? If they were to get angry they would at least have an excuse, and yet they don't; what excuse do you have?


When you sling mud (even from the intoxicating safety the sidelines allow you) you tend to get dirty yourself.


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## btbg (Jul 31, 2014)

ricknasty1985 said:


> I am no dummy...



False.


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## asher (Jul 31, 2014)

btbg said:


> False.



Way to constructively add to this dead thread dude.


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## btbg (Aug 18, 2014)

I think correcting the OP is constructive as is.


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