# My band...opinions welcome!



## Bogners Rule (Nov 30, 2005)

Lodis C 

This is my band Lodis C. Check it out and let me know what you think guys! My rig conssts of a Stephen Carpenter 7 string and a 1st generation Bogner Uberschall full stack. The guitars, however, were recorded using a 5150 and a Mesa.(and maybe a little Pod thrown in)


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## nikt (Nov 30, 2005)

90% of what I like found in Yor music, throw those melodic parts (1billion bands sond like that) and put there a more scream and will be awsome


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

'Downtown In A Hole' and 'Wait These Days' sounded pretty cool. 'Get Your Own Cancer'... eh, I wasn't as nuts about that. But all-in-all, not too shabby.

Not bad. You guys sound alot like a Toledo band called OnceOver, and they're pretty good. I bet you got a pretty decent live show... lots of energy? Now, how about some solos, some harmony guitar, and some insane double kick stuff? 

Welcome to the forum, BTW!


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## Laren (Nov 30, 2005)

scene

it's like killswitch engage but even more emo.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

Laren said:


> scene


WTF does "scene" mean?


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## Dylan7620 (Nov 30, 2005)

scene means hXc kids, they go and two step to the chariot


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## Dylan7620 (Nov 30, 2005)

still, i liked downtown in a whole


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## Laren (Nov 30, 2005)

reference: hXc = http://mightymoshin.ytmnd.com/

that's more emo than hardcore scene, although i actually like that song, cuz it's funny and i quite like the guitar tone.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

Dylan7620 said:


> scene means hXc kids, they go and two step to the chariot


...?  What?  I don't have a clue what the fuck you just said there, bro!


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## Metal Ken (Nov 30, 2005)

they mean it sounds trendy. 
I will say: Its not something i'd really listen to, BUT I think it sounds alright till it gets to those melodic parts.. then..eeeeh.


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## nikt (Nov 30, 2005)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Now, how about some solos, some harmony guitar, and some insane double kick stuff?



I know that was a joke but many people thread the HC music in those categories.... but this is just something diffrent that all the shrred, blast or lazy melodic guitar stuff that is up there, but yes the HC scene is old and pupular only from time to time as new band crossover some other music into it.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

nikt said:


> I know that was a joke but many people thread the HC music in those categories.... but this is just something diffrent that all the shrred, blast or lazy melodic guitar stuff that is up there, but yes the HC scene is old and pupular only from time to time as new band crossover some other music into it.


I was actually serious! 

Like Laren said... I think he nailed it. KsE but more Emo. I was just trying to cut out the Emo


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## Laren (Nov 30, 2005)

i say, they should only play venues in lesser known northern european towns, and hang virgins from upside down crosses on stage...

I actually think it isn't to bad for what it is, it could have been worse.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

Laren said:


> i say, they should only play venues in lesser known northern european towns, and hang virgins from upside down crosses on stage...


Hey! You stole my gimmick!  (Ok, I _was_ joking there  )



Laren said:


> I actually think it isn't to bad for what it is, it could have been worse.


I agree with that, dude. It wasn't too bad.


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## Laren (Nov 30, 2005)

that guy's probably gunna hate this forum now.


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## Dylan7620 (Nov 30, 2005)

The Dark Wolf said:


> ...?  What?  I don't have a clue what the fuck you just said there, bro!


ha ha. hxc is the new way to write "hardcore" for all the myspace kids. two stepping aka, "hardcore dancing" when they get in a stance and punch the air, or go and drop change on the ground and look like they're punching the ground, or they swing their arms around wildly (actually some of the more insane ones do some crazy ninja kicks in the air,  ) they go see bands like norma jean, himsa, and the chariot (even though these bands are't real hardcore.... most of the kids that listen to them call it metal. but in case you don't know how don't try, if they hit you on accident thats what it is, but if you happen to hit them they get all offended like "dude, thats not cool"  i dunno.... kids these days.


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

Dylan7620 said:


> ha ha. hxc is the new way to write "hardcore" for all the myspace kids. two stepping aka, "hardcore dancing" when they get in a stance and punch the air, or go and drop change on the ground and look like they're punching the ground, or they swing their arms around wildly (actually some of the more insane ones do some crazy ninja kicks in the air,  ) they go see bands like norma jean, himsa, and the chariot (even though these bands are't real hardcore.... most of the kids that listen to them call it metal. but in case you don't know how don't try, if they hit you on accident thats what it is, but if you happen to hit them they get all offended like "dude, thats not cool"  i dunno.... kids these days.


I think this explanation left me more puzzled than the reason for it!

What are myspace kids? Do they ride a little yellow bus or something? 

And weren't you describing a wierd, eplileptic type of moshing... maybe? I dunno, dude.  I'm lost.


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## Leon (Nov 30, 2005)

hxc = hardcore punk
my ex gf was into punk 

she was sxe, which is straight edge, which is pretty much what i am as well, though i'm not a punk. it means no drugs, ie no smoking, drinking, or any kind of doping.


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## Metal Ken (Nov 30, 2005)

Dylan7620 said:


> ha ha. hxc is the new way to write "hardcore" for all the myspace kids. two stepping aka, "hardcore dancing" when they get in a stance and punch the air, or go and drop change on the ground and look like they're punching the ground, or they swing their arms around wildly (actually some of the more insane ones do some crazy ninja kicks in the air,  ) they go see bands like norma jean, himsa, and the chariot (even though these bands are't real hardcore.... most of the kids that listen to them call it metal. but in case you don't know how don't try, if they hit you on accident thats what it is, but if you happen to hit them they get all offended like "dude, thats not cool"  i dunno.... kids these days.


Next time i see a kid hardcore dancing at a metal show, in the mosh pit, i'm gonna fucking shoulder charge him and show him how we do it, thrash metal style. \m/


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## Laren (Nov 30, 2005)

www.myspace.com/bmth

The three genres they picked are metal/metal/metal

but that musics pretty offensive, offensive because record companys let people like that record and release stuff, rather than people who write real music.

This music is based around patterns, same notes hit at different times, with some riffs added to prevent your brain from melting and running out of your nose. (The band that started this thread are nothing like this, they're actually allright, but the one i posted is an extreme of "scene"/"Hardcore"). There's alot of metal influences in it, but it's not metal itself.


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## Metal Ken (Nov 30, 2005)

http://www.myspace.com/sleepterror
Listen to this instead


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## The Dark Wolf (Nov 30, 2005)

Laren said:


> There's alot of metal influences in it, but it's not metal itself.


If it ain't metal, I don't want it 

And sxe... no drinking?! Fuck that shit!


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## 7slinger (Nov 30, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> Next time i see a kid hardcore dancing at a metal show, in the mosh pit, i'm gonna fucking shoulder charge him and show him how we do it, thrash metal style. \m/






+1, 2, 3, 4, and 5


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## Laren (Dec 1, 2005)

argh no, jazz fusion, all these bands would be good if they removed the jazz. Jazz is good, but jazz fusion isn't!


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## nikt (Dec 1, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> Next time i see a kid hardcore dancing at a metal show, in the mosh pit, i'm gonna fucking shoulder charge him and show him how we do it, thrash metal style. \m/





The Dark Wolf said:


> If it ain't metal, I don't want it
> And sxe... no drinking?! Fuck that shit!





7slinger said:


> +1, 2, 3, 4, and 5



TRUE METAL BULLSHIT!!!!!

I hate when people comment something that they don't understand, and I'm not talking about music now

I was straight edge for over 4years but You don't give a damm about why people choosing something like that.

So why I'm listening to metal now, I will always have repect for the HC scene for what they are doing, but not the trend Emo what you're all thinkig,kill those singers


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## Naren (Dec 1, 2005)

Everyone bashes stuff they don't listen to. I love hardcore punk and I have for a long time. You can make fun of metal just as easy as you can make fun of hardcore. About 6-7 years ago, when I was in high school, I used to listen to mainly hardcore punk. Many of my favorite bands at that time were straight edge. I'm not straight edge and I never have been, but I respect those people. They don't do it for fashion. They do it because of something they believe in. One of my top 5 favorite bands of all time is a hardcore band where the lead singer is extremely straight edge (doesn't drink, smoke, do drugs, have sex, or eat meat -- which is the most extreme form of straight edge). He has his whole upper body below his neck tattooed and, among those tattoos, he has some "x"s. Don't give me the metal bullshit of "oh, that's stupid" just because it isn't metal. If you wonder why there are so many "x"s in straight edge, it started in the early eighties with the early straightedge bands/community. When you go into a club, they check your ID and if you're under 21, they draw an "X" on your hand that means you aren't going to drink. So, straightedgers, who were over 21, would draw an X on their hand anyway and bypass the ID checker and just show their hands to show they were there for the show and weren't going to drink. 

This is a forum for 7-string guitars and 7-string guitarists, not just for metalheads. Although I listen to a lot of metal and I started listening to metal before I ever started listening to punk (started listening to metal when I was 13; started listening to punk when I was 15), I do not consider myself "metal." I used to be a member of a hardcore forum about 7 years ago where my handle was "Oldschool hardcore ghettostyle Eric" (which in itself was poking fun at the community at the time). Punks are more guilty that anyone of bashing genres. And, sure, you can make fun of the hardcore "scene", but I think you can make fun of the metal scene even worse.

If you don't like the music, fine. But hardcore is not a fashion or popularity contest like most of modern emo. It has the true spirit and energy of punk. I'd say I listen to just as much hardcore/post-hardcore punk as I listen to metal. And I don't think of myself as being "punk" or "metal."

I agree with nikt here. 

I really liked the Lodis C songs. It was kinda like hardcore punk mixed with emo. I personally would also have liked a little more screaming in with the melodic singing. Some parts of the songs reminded me of The Bled; other parts reminded me of Atreyu.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 1, 2005)

nikt said:


> TRUE METAL BULLSHIT!!!!!


I actually sorta agree with this, I think  I really don't like the so-called 'true metal' attitude, even though I'm all about metal. I'd prefer to listen to it more than most stuff, to be honest. Except for Prince 

As for sxe, I don't know much about it. I was joking, really... anything with no booze is right out for me! (And no _sex_? What the heck? Are these guys militant Christians or Muslims or something? That sounds like some sort of religious creed...?)

And hardcore, I don't even know what the hell you guys are talking about with a hardcore 'scene'. It's all greek to me!


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## Naren (Dec 1, 2005)

The Dark Wolf said:


> As for sxe, I don't know much about it. I was joking, really... anything with no booze is right out for me! (And no _sex_? What the heck? Are these guys militant Christians or Muslims or something? That sounds like some sort of religious creed...?)



As you know, I'm a big drinker. But here's the straight edge philosophy. Alcohol, drugs, and cigarettes are ways that people run from pain. Straightedgers face reality without running away from it through alcohol, drugs, or tobacco. Some people extend this to be sex as well. This also has to do with many straightedgers strong hatred of sluts. The no eating meat is sometimes for health purposes (and some say the "no sex" is also for health). There are a lot of straightedgers who do have sex. I was just mentioning the extreme cases. Most straightedgers who end up getting married quit being straightedge after marriage. I have a friend who was straightedge for a few years, but then started smoking. Someone asked him "Weren't you straightedge?" and he was like "Yeah, I was. I guess I gave in."

There's more to it than that. But straightedgers/hardcore guys are some of the most hardcore psycho people I've EVER met. 

Some people who don't listen to music confuse terms a lot. Hardcore has NOTHING to do with emo, although since about 2002 or so, there have been quite a few emo bands that have tried to implement hardcore into their screamo/emocore music. As I mentioned above, I used to be a member of a hardcore forum and I would say that the opposite of "emo" is "hardcore." The people on that site sometimes made fun of metalheads, but they made fun of emo kids more than anything else (although, back in 1997, I'm sure most of the people on this site had no idea who emo kids were and probably didn't know that emo has been around since about 1985 or so). Hardcore punk is emo's worst enemy.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 1, 2005)

Wow. All that genre stuff is confusing. If it rocks, I like it! I don't really care what label is on it (although the convenient term 'metal' means I will probably be more inclined to like the music than dislike it, but like all things, it depends.)

Drinking to escape pain... huh. Well, I'm sure there are those who do. Me, I ain't got no pain.  I just like to have a good time with my friends, and feel good. Alchohol and sex are just things that make life a bit better. But denying pleasure, especially things so elemental, like sex... eh. Modern-day Stoics, I suppose.


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## Laren (Dec 1, 2005)

Negative, hardcore where i live is a trend


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## Naren (Dec 1, 2005)

Laren said:


> Negative, hardcore where i live is a trend



Hardcore has been around since about 1981. That's why it's classified into so many millions of styles. "Old-school hardcore", "new-school hardcore", "post-hardcore", "classic hardcore", etc. etc. etc. etc.


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## nikt (Dec 1, 2005)

Laren said:


> Negative, hardcore where i live is a trend



hardcore or those new, trivium, killswitch engage, the bled thing??

or sick of it all, 25 ta life, madball, fratalanza, zegota


like everything have it's good and bad sides, nu metal was bad side of metal and the whole emo is pain in the ass for HC


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## Metal Ken (Dec 1, 2005)

nikt said:


> TRUE METAL BULLSHIT!!!!!
> 
> I hate when people comment something that they don't understand, and I'm not talking about music now
> 
> ...



Dude, i dont care if you're straight edge or not. Hardcore dancing is fucking stupid. Hardcore Dancing is so far removed from what hardcore was. 
I'll go listen to some hardcore. DRI, Nuclear Assault, Crumbsuckers, Agnostic Front, etc. That shit rules.


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## The Dark Wolf (Dec 1, 2005)

What the fuck is hardcore dancing anyway?


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## nikt (Dec 1, 2005)

The Dark Wolf said:


> What the fuck is hardcore dancing anyway?



And I wthink that with this question we should end about HC and focus on


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## Laren (Dec 1, 2005)

http://emogothdance.ytmnd.com/

enjoy

(their servers are often over loaded, wait for the gif to load)

also check out moshzilla

http://hcgf.ytmnd.com/


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## Roland777 (Dec 1, 2005)

The Dark Wolf said:


> What the fuck is hardcore dancing anyway?



I'm just grasping for straws, but isn't that when you've got people clearing up an area in the mosh, then go rampant with flailing arms and roundhouse kicks?


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## Metal Ken (Dec 1, 2005)

Roland777 said:


> I'm just grasping for straws, but isn't that when you've got people clearing up an area in the mosh, then go rampant with flailing arms and roundhouse kicks?



Essentially thats it. Its basically, you know... Moshing without contact with other people, thus defeating the purpose of a pit.


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## Roland777 (Dec 1, 2005)

Without contact? Are we talking about the same thing? 

http://uselessjunk.org/videos/moshpit.wmv


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## Metal Ken (Dec 1, 2005)

Dude, every time i've seen hardcore dancing, its like 2 people standing there punching and kicking air and shit... And there's always people doing this at shows. It'll be like, brutal death metal like, hate eternal and people will be doing that shit. lol 
But they're like, at the edge of a pit. Like i said, next time i see it, i'm moshing with them ;p


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## noodles (Dec 1, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> Dude, every time i've seen hardcore dancing, its like 2 people standing there punching and kicking air and shit... And there's always people doing this at shows. It'll be like, brutal death metal like, hate eternal and people will be doing that shit.



It only takes one extremely large metalhead to put an end to this. There were a pair of 17yo losers doing this at a Megadeth show last year, annoying the fuck out of everyone. Up walks this six-foot a lot of inches, 350lb+ dude. He grabs both of them by the back of their pants, lifts them off the ground, yells "STOP ACTING LIKE POSERS" over the music, and drops them back down. Nothing but headbanging out of those two for the rest of the show.


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## eaeolian (Dec 1, 2005)

noodles said:


> It only takes one extremely large metalhead to put an end to this. There were a pair of 17yo losers doing this at a Megadeth show last year, annoying the fuck out of everyone. Up walks this six-foot a lot of inches, 350lb+ dude. He grabs both of them by the back of their pants, lifts them off the ground, yells "STOP ACTING LIKE POSERS" over the music, and drops them back down. Nothing but headbanging out of those two for the rest of the show.



Actually, we handled this at Exodus a few years back by simply forming a ring and elbowing the idiots into submission. Note that everyone else involved in the ring was my age or older, and the two HC idiots were in their early twenties. Once again, old age and treachery triumphs!


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## nikt (Dec 1, 2005)

noodles said:


> yells "STOP ACTING LIKE POSERS" over the music, and drops them back down. Nothing but headbanging out of those two for the rest of the show.





eaeolian said:


> Actually, we handled this at Exodus a few years back by simply forming a ring and elbowing the idiots into submission. Note that everyone else involved in the ring was my age or older, and the two HC idiots were in their early twenties. Once again, old age and treachery triumphs!



you must be proud of your self, You show the guys who's the man......  

I don get this TRUE METAL shit, it's the same stupid talking like guys that are using 6strings and think that 7strings are only for numetal 14yearsold kids

so I prefer to be a POSER in your meaning then saying that I listen to metal and be talking with such one way thinking

nothing personal but I hate when people acting like you guys, I'm older I'm the metal guy, I'm the master and show.... K*(^[email protected]


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## eaeolian (Dec 1, 2005)

nikt said:


> nothing personal but I hate when people acting like you guys, I'm older I'm the metal guy, I'm the master and show.... K*(^[email protected]



Yeah, nothing like saying "nothing personal" after insulting someone... 

Look, in my case these idiots were HURTING people who DIDN'T want to be involved, so the crowd did a little "self-policing". It's not being "superior", in my case, anyway - it's handling a problem. I found the age difference humorous, but telling, since it wasn't like those of us in the ring discussed it, we just did it, like we had a hundred times before at shows where someone was acting like an ass. As soon as they quit, everything was cool.


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## Naren (Dec 1, 2005)

HateBreeder said:


> Dude, i dont care if you're straight edge or not. Hardcore dancing is fucking stupid. Hardcore Dancing is so far removed from what hardcore was.
> I'll go listen to some hardcore. DRI, Nuclear Assault, Crumbsuckers, Agnostic Front, etc. That shit rules.



Agreed. That shit rules. And there's a hell of a lot more like that. But the term "hardcore" is a little twisted now. Many of my favorite bands are hardcore and post-hardcore, but some people think of this emo shit (granted, I like a few emo bands, but not many) that is the complete other side of the spectrum.

Never been a fan of "hardcore dancing." Don't really know what's hardcore about it.


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## nikt (Dec 1, 2005)

eaeolian said:


> Yeah, nothing like saying "nothing personal" after insulting someone...




I get Your point now, and trust me it was not personal. If my best friend said or did something similar I would say just what I did


If you all know now Vader,he's popular in US, he toured 2 years ago on the Blietz Kreig 2 Tour with a HC band called Frontside, now they play more metal but then it was HC. The show was great in my city, many people, HC and metals on one concert, but without something like you describe. This is how it looks in poland so I was to quick getting pissed off, cuz I don't understand few thing that look in other way in other countries


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## noodles (Dec 1, 2005)

nikt said:


> so I prefer to be a POSER in your meaning then saying that I listen to metal and be talking with such one way thinking
> 
> nothing personal but I hate when people acting like you guys, I'm older I'm the metal guy, I'm the master and show....



It has nothing to do with age, and everything to do with idiots swinging limbs around like crazy, putting others at risk of getting clocked by a wild punch or kick. I can't stand that bullshit, I'm there to listen to the music and watch the band, not spend money to take a shot to the temple.

The fact that the morons doing this hc dancing bullshit are almost always teenagers, or at the most, early twenties, has absolutely nothing to do with my hatred of it. If some 17yo kids want to join me for some whiplash-inducing headbanging, I'm going to welcome them along as brothers in arms.


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## Laren (Dec 1, 2005)

crowd surfing, i jared my neck when some cunt landed on me from behind, spent the next 2 weeks in a brace, i suppose that's kind of similar.


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## Oogadee Boogadee (Dec 2, 2005)

i used to frequent straight edge shows in DAyton ohio (my hometown) in the 90's.

i didn't partake in the dancing.... one of my best friends then was (and still is from what I hear) sxe. so, i was just along for the ride (aka amusement).

it was funny watching these youngsters participate in the 'hard-ass' contest. who could dance the hardest. who had the baddest tattoos on their necks, knuckles, full sleeves, back pieces, etc. who was the first to fight. who was the least likely to 'sell out'.

I have never met a group of kids more concerned with fitting in and being on top of the mountain and saying "look at me". all this preceeded today's "troo metal" elite.

talk about not being comfortable being in your own skin and keeping your mouth shut and minding your own business. and many of them wouldn't fight one-on-one. power in numbers. ganging up on smokers, drinkers, whatever. the older kids didn't dance anymore. they became the elders who suddenly realized, "hey, there's a show to watch here", and they were done proving themselves and they created a tough rep that they feared to lose by getting schooled on the floor. 

it was always about "hey man, i'm almost in the Courage Crew" blah blah blah, i'm a badass.

and most of the bands sucked.


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## Drew (Dec 2, 2005)

Oogadee Boogadee said:


> I have never met a group of kids more concerned with fitting in and being on top of the mountain and saying "look at me". all this preceeded today's "troo metal" elite.



This is the thing I don't get about the straightedge/hardcore thing. If you don't want to drink/do drugs/eat meat/have sex, that's cool. If you've got your reasons for not wanting to do that, more power to you. Don't judge me for having a couple beers, and I won't judge you for not - peer pressure goes both ways, and I'm cool with that. 

But, the sheer preponderance of hardcore kids who are straightedge makes me wonder if they're doing it because they have personal reasons for not drinking, or if they're doing it to be part of a scene. If you do it because you believe it, that's cool. If you do it because everyone you know does it, that's retarded. 

I've COMPLETELY lost touch with the hardcore scene in the last 8 or so years, but ages and ages ago I hung with the punk rock crowd in high school, and there was a bit of overlap. A buddy of mine was at a Hatebreed show (pre-XXX/Vin Diesel days), and another guy at the show accidentaly backhanded him in the face wearing a spiked leather bracelet. He cut up my buddy a bit under his eye, and when he realized what he did, the guy apologized, took him into the bathroom and helped wash off the blood, and then bought my friend (who was probably 16 at the time) a beer. That's cool. That's a scene I could respect. This "I'm an individual... just like everybody else," as Shannon quips, thing is just idiotic, though. 

/pointless post.


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## Bogners Rule (Dec 2, 2005)

Thanks for all your opinions! It is definately appreciated. This place seems like a cool place to hang. I'll try to keep you guys posted if we are coming to an area near you. Like us or not, I'm always down for meeting up with people and kicking back some beer. Don't worry, we don't wear girl jeans or have those horrid haircuts. haha
Our drummer, however, looks like he belongs in winger or something.


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## Drew (Dec 2, 2005)

There _IS_ nothing worse than the emo combover haircut, lol


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## Metal Ken (Dec 2, 2005)

nikt said:


> you must be proud of your self, You show the guys who's the man......
> 
> I don get this TRUE METAL shit, it's the same stupid talking like guys that are using 6strings and think that 7strings are only for numetal 14yearsold kids
> 
> ...



How is that "True Metal Bullshit"? None of us have been at all like "DUDE I AM TR00 KVLT NORWEIGIAN ARSK BLACK METAL! I AM GRIM AND NECRO. I DO NOT SMILE. I AM FUCKING EVIL". 
Its pretty much been : "Hardcore dancing and the people that do it are fucking stupid". If i were a straight up Jazz geek, or professional classical musician, or anything for that matter,i'd STILL say it was stupid shit. You're the only one talking about this "True Metal Bullshit", perpetuating something that just isnt there


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## Laren (Dec 2, 2005)

Bogners Rule said:


> Thanks for all your opinions! It is definately appreciated. This place seems like a cool place to hang. I'll try to keep you guys posted if we are coming to an area near you. Like us or not, I'm always down for meeting up with people and kicking back some beer. Don't worry, we don't wear girl jeans or have those horrid haircuts. haha
> Our drummer, however, looks like he belongs in winger or something.



dude, i'm guessing that's you with the RG7 then. You need to add more keyboard too, i think i only heard that guy once.


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## Bogners Rule (Dec 2, 2005)

Hey man! Actually , the dude with the RG7 is Jimbo. Im not pictured because I am fairly new next to the rest of the band. I definately think we need to utilize the keyboards a little more. What part of England are you in? Our singer is a UK transplant. I think he's from Manchester. Not TOO sure about that


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## Laren (Dec 3, 2005)

Sunderland


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## Naren (Dec 4, 2005)

Bogners Rule said:


> I definately think we need to utilize the keyboards a little more.



Agreed. I think most music could do with some more keys.  

(of course, this comes from the ex-lead singer/guitarist/computer music dude from an industrial band - which may invalidate my statement to some people...)


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## Laren (Dec 4, 2005)

keyboards own.


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