# Whitechapel Album, Amp Shoot Out!



## AlexWadeWC (Jan 9, 2010)

So we started getting ready to do guitars and we had an amp shoot out with a bunch of different amps trying to pick the perfect tone for the CD. It was alot of fun.

The amps in questions were:

5150 Block Letter, 5150 II, 5150 III, 6505+, 2 Channel Mesa Dual Rec (with EL34s), 2010 Mesa Dual Rec (with 6L6s), Revision Blue Bogner Uberschall, and a modded JCM 800.

We tried all of these through a Mesa 4x12 with V30's, and all of them were boosted with a Maxon OD-808 as well.

If i had to rank them in order of my favorites it'd go something like this:

5150 III
5150 Block
Bogner
2010 Mesa Dual
5150 II
6505+
JCM800
2 Channel Mesa Dual


My favorite pick was the 5150 III, but the block letter 5150 sounded sick too, and Suecof was really digging that one, so ultimately we went with the block letter for this albums amp. We used a 6505 on This Is Exile but this 5150 sounds way better. Guess it has more mojo to it hahaha, it sounds roaring and beastly.

The Bogner sounded awesome, reminded me of a Mesa but smoother, had the same sag to it though. Would have been awesome to double track on each side for a layer but we decided that was going to take too much time.

The JCM800 was a big surprise, it sounded great, just not for us. I forget who he said it was modded by but it had a ridiculous amount of gain on tap. Sounded really thick and big.

The new Mesa was an awesome surprise as well. Definitely was what they said it was, more open, less compressed sounding. Don't get me wrong, it definitely still sounds like a Mesa Rec for sure, just a better version of it. We were about to use it as a layer with the 5150 too but like i said we just decided it would be better/more time efficient and keep it to 1 track per side. It definitely blew away the 2 channel, which was a weird surprise. But then again the 2 channel had EL34's which i'm not a fan of either so that's probably why.

So yeah that's the skinny of it, i'll shut up now since this is getting long, but there you have it. The new album will be 5150 Block Letter boosted with a Maxon OD-808 into a Mesa 4x12. Miced with 2 SM57's. Huge, saturated, and pissed sounding!


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## cow 7 sig (Jan 9, 2010)

any chance you got all this on vid?,would be fucking epic to see/watch


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 9, 2010)

cow 7 sig said:


> any chance you got all this on vid?,would be fucking epic to see/watch



nah don't have the amp shoot out on video, but I will be making a second studio blog which will feature guitars like I did for the first one that featured drums.


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## Rogueleader (Jan 9, 2010)

Was there any question on what cab you would be using or was the mesa a shoe in from the start?


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## leonardo7 (Jan 9, 2010)

Rogueleader said:


> Was there any question on what cab you would be using or was the mesa a shoe in from the start?


Always Mesa cabs. 

I want that new Mesa.


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## Rogueleader (Jan 9, 2010)

Also, whats your opinion on the new ESP NT-7?


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## spattergrind (Jan 9, 2010)

Too bad on not using the 5150 III on the new album.....wanted to hear what it sounded like...

Goin with the typical 5150...man, seems like everybody is using those for recording.....glad I still have mine!  even though its a signature...


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## virus5150 (Jan 9, 2010)

im trying to boost my gain a little, add some balls, and clear up my tone. maxon od9 or ibanez ts9?

....new album?.....i believe i have a stiffy....in the none homosexual way...


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## spattergrind (Jan 9, 2010)

virus5150 said:


> im trying to boost my gain a little, add some balls, and clear up my tone. maxon od9 or ibanez ts9?
> 
> ....new album?.....i believe i have a stiffy....in the none homosexual way...



I'd get the Maxon OD-9
Maxon made Ibanez pedals before they went their separate ways....
The Maxons are supposed to be better quality.
I have the OD9 and I think it sounds really good....never owned a TS9 though so I couldn't say.


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## warlock7strEMG (Jan 9, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> So we started getting ready to do guitars and we had an amp shoot out with a bunch of different amps trying to pick the perfect tone for the CD. It was alot of fun.
> 
> The amps in questions were:
> 
> ...



awesome man, thanks for posting this!!! great summary for each amp for sure. i cant to check out that new Recto, its good to know that its everything that Mesa promised it would be.

honestly i think its kinda cool to see that yall are using the 5150 for tracking. all are great amps but the 5150 is actually my favorite out of all the ones listed. this should sound sick!!! but then again, yall tone is always amazing. im super stoked about this album. 




virus5150 said:


> im trying to boost my gain a little, add some balls, and clear up my tone. maxon od9 or ibanez ts9?
> 
> ....new album?.....i believe i have a stiffy....in the none homosexual way...




another vote for the OD9 here too, my favorite OD so far. compared back to back with TS9 in front of the same amp and cab(6505+ into Vader 4x12), the OD9 blew it away. they have a very similar tone but the Maxon was more open and had an overall thicker tone, the midhump seemed pretty broad whereas the TS9 midhump was a bit nasal and the Maxon also cut out alot less low end. as a matter of fact the OD9 retains the low end better than any other stock OD pedal that ive tried out so far, the BBE Green Screamer is a close second though


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## tacotiklah (Jan 9, 2010)

I was wondering why you guys don't use vader cabs? Every clip I've ever heard of one of those cabs is just godly sounding.


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 9, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> I was wondering why you guys don't use vader cabs? Every clip I've ever heard of one of those cabs is just godly sounding.



We used them for a while. Just wasn't our thing. They work good for brutal death metal like cannibal corpse, dying fetus, devourment, etc. and even though we have a really big and heavy and sometimes saggy sound we just liked the cleaner, more direct sound of the Mesa cabs.



Rogueleader said:


> Was there any question on what cab you would be using or was the mesa a shoe in from the start?



shoe in from the start. we love those cabs plus well, frankly it was the only one here hahaha, so we went with it.


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## Rick (Jan 9, 2010)

Nice review of the new Mesa, can't wait to hear some clips!


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 9, 2010)

Rogueleader said:


> Also, whats your opinion on the new ESP NT-7?



I love it man. It's a sick 7. The neck is really small, its a 7 that feels like a 6. We replaced the stock 707 in the bridge with 81-7s, but other than that it feels, plays, and sounds killer!



spattergrind said:


> I'd get the Maxon OD-9
> Maxon made Ibanez pedals before they went their separate ways....
> The Maxons are supposed to be better quality.
> I have the OD9 and I think it sounds really good....never owned a TS9 though so I couldn't say.



I agree. I use an OD9 and it's great!


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## jsousa (Jan 9, 2010)

the 5150 is a staple in the industry, but man, its nice to hear new amps on albums!


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 9, 2010)

jsousa said:


> the 5150 is a staple in the industry, but man, its nice to hear new amps on albums!



Trust me, i know, I really wanted to use the III, but Suecof said he just felt way better about the block letter sitting in the mix, and he is the producer, and we all still like the block letter as well, so we went with it.


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## leonardo7 (Jan 9, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> I love it man. It's a sick 7. The neck is really small, its a 7 that feels like a 6. We replaced the stock 707 in the bridge with 81-7s, but other than that it feels, plays, and sounds killer!



The Stef B7 is the exact same guitar as the NT-7 but with a 27" scale and a thicker neck because of it. Also with no neck pickup. Also maybe slightly better build cause we are talkin ESP standard series vs custom shop. If the NT-7 works Id imagine the Stef B7 is the same but better and bigger sounding no? But maybe the NT-7 is a better suit cause of the neck pickup and awesomely tiny neck?

Seriously looking forward to the new album.


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## Ericbrujo (Jan 9, 2010)

Nice, can't wait for the album.


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## iff (Jan 9, 2010)

Was the Mesa cab you used for recording OS or Standard? Which do you guys use live?


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## Arsis (Jan 9, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> So yeah that's the skinny of it, i'll shut up now since this is getting long, but there you have it. The new album will be 5150 Block Letter boosted with a Maxon OD-808 into a Mesa 4x12. Miced with 2 SM57's. Huge, saturated, and pissed sounding!



Block letter 5150, Maxon OD-808, Mesa 4x12. SM57.

That is my exact setup.


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 9, 2010)

nomop said:


> Was the Mesa cab you used for recording OS or Standard? Which do you guys use live?



Suecofs mesa cab which we are using is an over sized. We use the traditional live, they're much tighter, especially with our low tuning live.


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## spattergrind (Jan 10, 2010)

I agree. I use an OD9 and it's great![/quote]


I got one cuz you got one Alex....when i saw that you had one in your rig....I had to get one....I love your tone live and I was looking for a serious overdrive to tighten my distortion.


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> Suecofs mesa cab which we are using is an over sized. We use the traditional live, they're much tighter, especially with our low tuning live.



Did you get to try any other cabs? I ask because V30s seriously hold those killer amps you mentioned back. If you're after tightness, punch, and definition with low tunings, V30s are one of the last speakers I'd turn to. Not trying to rag on your stuff, just want to help. I had your cab for about 8 years and really wish I knew what I know now then. 

Does the studio have any cabs loaded with different speakers? Maybe G12-K100s? CL80s? Perhaps P50Es or other Eminence speakers? Relative to v30s, all of these are much tighter, much clearer, better headroom, and just generally are equipped to handle your kind of music better than V30s. In my line of work I get to conduct extensive 'A/B' comparisons between different cabinets _constantly_; you really learn a lot. Just my


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## Shaman (Jan 10, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> Did you get to try any other cabs? I ask because V30s seriously hold those killer amps you mentioned back. If you're after tightness, punch, and definition with low tunings, V30s are one of the last speakers I'd turn to. Not trying to rag on your stuff, just want to help. I had your cab for about 8 years and really wish I knew what I know now then.
> 
> Does the studio have any cabs loaded with different speakers? Maybe G12-K100s? CL80s? Perhaps P50Es or other Eminence speakers? Relative to v30s, all of these are much tighter, much clearer, better headroom, and just generally are equipped to handle your kind of music better than V30s. In my line of work I get to conduct extensive 'A/B' comparisons between different cabinets _constantly_; you really learn a lot. Just my



Even though the V30's have their shortcomings, but there's a reason studio engineers/producers prefer them when tracking metal.

The speakers you mentioned might work very well with the amps mentioned previously, but they won't necessarily sound that good in a mix.


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## Harry (Jan 10, 2010)

Shaman said:


> Even though the V30's have their shortcomings, but there's a reason studio engineers/producers prefer them when tracking metal.
> 
> The speakers you mentioned might work very well with the amps mentioned previously, but they won't necessarily sound that good in a mix.



It's all about the mix
I do respect your opinion Nick, but I do feel you are way too harsh on the V30. There are so many great recorded tones that have been done with the V30 that I can't see any reason for it to be a lesser speaker, it's just different to what you use
The best guitar tones in a mix are always the ones that sound a bit weird by themselves. Personally, I don't play live at all, nor am I in a band, so I have a different perspective of tone to guys that play live, I'm all about the way things sound in a recorded mix, so while others might not like it, personally some stuff I've heard with a V30 sounds pretty cool


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## metal_sam14 (Jan 10, 2010)

if i remember correctly andy sneap uses v30's for recording down tuned guitars.


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## loktide (Jan 10, 2010)

i'm surprised you like the block 5150 over the 6505 since it's technically the same amp. was it the 6505+ or did it maybe simply have different tubes/biasing?


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## encasedmetal (Jan 10, 2010)

you don't understand about the block letter that suecoff has, we used the same one on our album- there's something about that amp- not modded or anything- just ungodly.


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## Larrikin666 (Jan 10, 2010)

There's a difference in quality between those two amps. The longer an amp is out....the cheaper the components inside are going to get during production. That's why block letter 5150s and Mesas with low serial numbers sell for a bit more usually.


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## Harry (Jan 10, 2010)

metal_sam14 said:


> if i remember correctly andy sneap uses v30's for recording down tuned guitars.



He tends to use a variety of cabs and speakers really.
Dead Heart In a Dead World used a Marshall 1960B with Celestion T-75s.
It's not a bad tone, but I don't think it was the best either and it didn't totally sit in the mix the best either IMO.
Doomsday Machine and This Godless Endeavor, both with Mesa 4x12x most likely loaded with V-30s and I think those tones sit in the mix better than the DHIDW guitars do


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2010)

Harry said:


> There are so many great recorded tones that have been done with the V30 that I can't see any reason for it to be a lesser speaker, it's just different to what you use
> 
> The best guitar tones in a mix are always the ones that sound a bit weird by themselves. Personally, I don't play live at all, nor am I in a band, so I have a different perspective of tone to guys that play live, I'm all about the way things sound in a recorded mix, so while others might not like it, personally some stuff I've heard with a V30 sounds pretty cool



I'm fully aware there's a ton of great sounding records that use V30s dude, including some of my favorite tones of all time. That says a lot more about the engineer's abilities than v30's prowess however. In the studio, in the hands of a good engineer, you can really make almost anything sound great. Wasn't Carcass' 'Heartwork' recorded with some cheesy 15W Marshall? 

V30s are the definitely one of the best of the common OEM speakers and most studios have these readily available. Engineers get a lot of practice mixing with them. I however know of many great engineers who own studios that have different cabs and get great results too. This notion that v30s are the only way is a pure myth.



Harry said:


> It's all about the mix
> I do respect your opinion Nick, but I do feel you are way too harsh on the V30.



You would be too if you were in my position. Every time I get to compare a _good_ V30 cab to a _good _non-V30 cab in a direct comparison - which is often in my line of work - they get destroyed. Every time we've let bands we gig with who use 5150s thru v30s borrow our cabs, everyone has agreed they sounded 10x better and cut through beautifully. I owned a Mesa/Boogie V30 cab for 8 years so it's not like I don't know them in and out by now. They have a good fundamental tone, which is why they can work well in the studio, but they do have some very real drawbacks and limitations which are clear-as-day if you get a chance to A/B them as much as I do.



Shaman said:


> Even though the V30's have their shortcomings, but there's a reason studio engineers/producers prefer them when tracking metal.
> 
> The speakers you mentioned might work very well with the amps mentioned previously, but they won't necessarily sound that good in a mix.



They sound great in a live mix in my experience dude. As for recording, a good engineer can make almost anything sound great as long as the performance is tight. This has been proven time and time again (look what Sneap has been able to do with dreadful Krank amps).

Most cabinet manufacturers I have spoken to admit privately that they would prefer not to use V30s in their cabinets anymore. While a few have switched (or at least offer different options now), most continue to offer V30s because the demand is high due to guitarists being so traditional and adverse to change. That perpetuates this 'industry standard' notion and nothing ever changes. Perception then becomes cabinets without v30s are not as 'high-end'. This is reality, I've heard it time and time again from industry people.

Hell, Mesa used to use their very nice 'Black Shadow' speakers in all their cabinets which really complimented their amps wonderfully, but started using V30s due to overwhelming demand. Demand that didn't necessarily derive from informed decisions, but rather hype and a desire to use what their heroes supposedly use - like almost anything else these days. 



metal_sam14 said:


> if i remember correctly andy sneap uses v30's for recording down tuned guitars.



He sure does, of course. Andy Sneap is a fucking genius though and knows his shit. He knows how to mix, compress, process, mic, utilize phase cancellation techniques, combine complimentary sounds, re-amp, all kinds of fun things which can get the most out of a sound. I love his production and am FULLY AWARE that he usually uses V30 cabs.

None of that means he couldn't work wonders with other good cabinets as well. 

*Guys, all I asked Wade was if the studio had any other cabinets to try, I never said V30s sucked just that there may be better options. I was trying to help as he said he was after "tightness" and "good clarity with low tunings", and sorry but that doesn't describe a v30. Not to my ears anyway. *


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## Shaman (Jan 10, 2010)

To be honest, the myth that studio engineers EQ, compress etc. the living hell out of guitars is a load of bs.

Sneap himself said that he usually doesen't EQ guitars, just lo/hi passes them and sometimes adds some multiband compression so that the low end of the guitars doesen't get out of control. And when it comes to V30's, Sneap's opinion was, that to his ears V30's are the best speakers when it comes to tracking low tuned guitars. 

But in the end, those are just his opinions and the great thing is, that we can either disagree or agree.

There's only so much you can do polishing a turd, you need to have a great raw tone, and that's what makes great engineers like Sneap/Colin/Suecof.
Why would the go around trying different amps, cabs, speakers, mics if they could just "EQ and compress" the guitars into sounding good. 

Explain, how can you make a guitar tone better by compressing it?(speaking of distorted tones, not clean guitars with a lot of dynamics that need to be toned down a bit)

That's not how things work in the wonderfull world of recording. Raw tone, that's where it all begins. A good amp, player, mic position etc. etc.

And the Krank thing, I have heard great sounding raw tracks of Krank amps, done by the people at the Sneap forum. Just because you never managed to get a decent sound out of one, doesen't mean that they are horrible amps, you just need to get your head out of your ass for a while


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## encasedmetal (Jan 10, 2010)

to the above post- you've obviously never recorded with a high end producer nor recorded in a real studio. Ever heard of reamping? ever heard of mixing/mastering. all of it has to do with the final sound- you should have heard Nocturnal (black dahlia murder) before it was mixed- you would have laughed your ass off. I think what the thread is getting at though- diff. strokes for diff. folks and amps. play what you like and fuck off if you don't like what I like! lol!


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## iff (Jan 10, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> You would be too if you were in my position. Every time I get to compare a _good_ V30 cab to a _good _non-V30 cab in a direct comparison - which is often in my line of work - they get destroyed. *Every time we've let bands we gig with who use 5150s thru v30s borrow our cabs, everyone has agreed they sounded 10x better and cut through beautifully.* I owned a Mesa/Boogie V30 cab for 8 years so it's not like I don't know them in and out by now. They have a good fundamental tone, which is why they can work well in the studio, but they do have some very real drawbacks and limitations which are clear-as-day if you get a chance to A/B them as much as I do.



Which cabs, Nick?


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## Shaman (Jan 10, 2010)

encasedmetal said:


> to the above post- you've obviously never recorded with a high end producer nor recorded in a real studio. Ever heard of reamping? ever heard of mixing/mastering. all of it has to do with the final sound- you should have heard Nocturnal (black dahlia murder) before it was mixed- you would have laughed your ass off. I think what the thread is getting at though- diff. strokes for diff. folks and amps. play what you like and fuck off if you don't like what I like! lol!



Yep yep, I have, because I do all of that stuff myself in my studio. Okay, I might not have a million dollar studio, but I do have a decent studio with a separate drum room etc.

Reamping doesen't really qualify as studio magic, since it's just routing the DI track through the amp again. The mic position, good amp, cab, settings etc. are still the most important thing even when reamping.

Yes, a lot of producers do reamp the guitars if the tones they got in the first place were not good enough, but like I said before, that's just routing the previously played DI track through the normal amp -> cab etc. setup. In that case, a properly miced setup is once again what counts.

The ideal situation with guitars is, that you don't need to edit them a lot in the mixing stage, and since distorted guitars are usually very compressed in the first place, you don't need to compress them. Maybe some multiband compression for the reasons I stated before. Compression doesen't really make a high gain guitar track sound any better, it's not a magic "make everything sound good" tool.

In modern metal, drums are usually the ones that get a lot of editing in the mixing stage. Time-aligning, samples etc. etc., but with guitars, it's still a good raw sound that is the most important thing. I stand behind that!

Mastering isn't really relevant now, since you are dealing with the overall picture and loudness of the track, rather than individual instruments. (sometimes group of instruments, yes, but you get the point)

Oh, and Carcass' Heartwork was tracked with a Peavey 5150 into two Marshall cabs taped together to make a big ass oversized cab. They did use a small Marshall combo on some parts, but it was very silent in the mix, and it's the 5150 you are hearing.


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 10, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> Did you get to try any other cabs? I ask because V30s seriously hold those killer amps you mentioned back. If you're after tightness, punch, and definition with low tunings, V30s are one of the last speakers I'd turn to. Not trying to rag on your stuff, just want to help. I had your cab for about 8 years and really wish I knew what I know now then.
> 
> Does the studio have any cabs loaded with different speakers? Maybe G12-K100s? CL80s? Perhaps P50Es or other Eminence speakers? Relative to v30s, all of these are much tighter, much clearer, better headroom, and just generally are equipped to handle your kind of music better than V30s. In my line of work I get to conduct extensive 'A/B' comparisons between different cabinets _constantly_; you really learn a lot. Just my



THREAD HI JACK!!! hahahaha it's all good though, i love hearing and talking about tones and recording.

But no it was the only cab available at Suecofs.

Though I will say I just ordered some G12-K100's for one of my Mesa Traditional cabs back home. Gonna install them in the one cab and A/B with one with V30's and see which I like better. I've heard soooo many good things about the K100's.


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## Sepultorture (Jan 10, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> THREAD HI JACK!!! hahahaha it's all good though, i love hearing and talking about tones and recording.
> 
> But no it was the only cab available at Suecofs.
> 
> Though I will say I just ordered some G12-K100's for one of my Mesa Traditional cabs back home. Gonna install them in the one cab and A/B with one with V30's and see which I like better. I've heard soooo many good things about the K100's.



myself aswell, me i actually love the V30 for live/practice/studio, and after hearing from a few people that the K100's are like V30's but even better, i must indeed hear a cab with these bad boys installed


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## JoshuaLogan (Jan 10, 2010)

Guys, the reason the 5150 sounded so good in the studio should be obvious. Suecof and Andy Sneap both use the Mesa Oversized cab almost always. Yes, Sneap occasionally uses other cabs, but most of the time it's always the Mesa oversized 4x12, especially if it's a really modern/heavy band.

Carcass' Heartwork is the same idea here. Colin Richardson ghetto rigged two cabs together to make an oversized V30 cab. The oversized cab is KEY to that great modern metal tone with V30s, and specifically the Mesa oversized cab is the one used almost always. The album was mostly 5150 with a tiny bit of the marshall practice amp blended in for grit. Most of what you are hearing is a 5150 into an oversized v30 cab mic'd with an sm57.

Yes, the Mesa traditional cabs sound a little tighter in the room, but when mic'd up Jason and Mark (from Audio Hammer) and Sneap all prefer the oversized cab. The Mesa traditional cabs sound a little looser and more middy when mic'd with an sm57, whereas the Mesa oversized cabs actually end up sounding tighter when mic'd and the mids sit just perfectly for metal. Really, what the cab sounds like mic'd up is what more people should base their opinions off of considering 1. you're micing up when recording and 2. you're almost always micing up when playing live, and listening to yourself more through the monitors than your cab anyways. So, in my opinion, what the cab sounds like mic'd up is WAY more important than what it sounds like to your ears in the room.

I would disregard people telling you that V30s or Mesa cabs are drawbacks in any way whatsoever, considering that Suecof and Sneap have put out MANY of the best sounding modern metal albums (and best modern metal guitar tones) ever recorded, and the Mesa oversized 4x12 is their cab of choice. Both tubescreamers (to bost the input) and Mesa oversized cabs are 100% KEY to that kind of sound, and the 5150 is a perfect match, which is why tubescreamer-->5150-->mesa oversized 4x12-->sm57 is used time after time after time for modern metal albums.



loktide said:


> i'm surprised you like the block 5150 over the 6505 since it's technically the same amp. was it the 6505+ or did it maybe simply have different tubes/biasing?



I doubt that Jason's 5150 is special in any way. It's most likely just that Alex had the 6505 paired up with a Mesa tradtional cab, and Jason had the 5150 paired up with the Mesa oversized cab, and that makes all the difference.



Larrikin666 said:


> There's a difference in quality between those two amps. The longer an amp is out....the cheaper the components inside are going to get during production. That's why block letter 5150s and Mesas with low serial numbers sell for a bit more usually.



About the 5150, that's a myth. People may try to get more $$$ for their block letter 5150s on ebay by claiming it's special, but it's really not. 

5150 signatures, 5150 block letters, and 6505s are 100% identical in components. The only difference between them is that some shipped with different stock tubes than others.


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> THREAD HI JACK!!! hahahaha it's all good though, i love hearing and talking about tones and recording.
> 
> But no it was the only cab available at Suecofs.
> 
> Though I will say I just ordered some G12-K100's for one of my Mesa Traditional cabs back home. Gonna install them in the one cab and A/B with one with V30's and see which I like better. I've heard soooo many good things about the K100's.



That's cool man, let us know what you think. The K100s have a lot more headroom, tighter bass, more of a balanced frequency response, and just generally holds things together under extreme conditions better. That can be a good or bad thing depending on the amp and desired tone. It's all subjective of course, I was merely asking if you had tried any other cabs at the studio, I was not criticizing your choice. 

Now I know so thanks 



JoshuaLogan said:


> *I would disregard people telling you that V30s or Mesa cabs are drawbacks in any way whatsoever*, considering that Suecof and Sneap have put out MANY of the best sounding modern metal



Well with all due respect I would certainly disregard _that _ridiculous statement, that's for sure. I'm as big a fan of Sneap's work as anyone on here, including you (and no one here _ever _said V30s couldn't sound great by the way), but to automatically dismiss the notion that V30s have drawbacks just because Andy Sneap gets good results with them is complete rubbish. People have the right to have differing opinions about gear. 

Just because great metal tones have been recorded with V30 cabs does not mean that v30s are perfect speakers or that there can't be better options out there. Great engineers can get great results with a lot of gear, it doesn't make what they use on a project automatically superior to anything else. If you believe that, I invite you to buy a Krankenstein.

It's my opinion that there are better speakers out there for Wade's type of music. If you have tried out all the alternatives and disagree, good for you but it's still my opinion. An opinion I harbor based on years of experimenting with dozens of different cabinets/speakers including an oversized Mesa cab I used exclusively for years. An opinion of my own, not solely based on what people I admire use. A lot of my favorite bands use EMGs too, that doesn't mean my pickup preferences aren't legitimate because I don't care for EMG 707s. 

Again I'm a huge Sneap fan; his work with Arch Enemy, Nevermore, Machine Head, and countless others have always inspired me. However, there are other great respected engineers out there who use totally different equipment and achieve terrific results too. There's no right or wrong way, I was just asking the man if he had tried any other cabinets there. I never said V30s sound bad, they obviously can sound great - especially in the studio at the hands of a highly-skilled engineer such as Andy Sneap.



nomop said:


> Which cabs, Nick?



Our cabs? We use the VHT Fat Bottom 4x12 slanted cabs.


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 10, 2010)

The 6505 was a +, thats why we liked it more than the 5150 block letter. The block letter was just thicker/a tad darker and saggier than the 6505+ and 5150 II, which works better for our sound.


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> The 6505 was a +, thats why we liked it more than the 5150 block letter. The block letter was just thicker/a tad darker and saggier than the 6505+ and 5150 II, which works better for our sound.



How similar is the 5150 III to the 5150/5150 II do you think Wade? What do you like about it more? That's one of the only high-gain amps I've never played before so I'm just curious.


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## JoshuaLogan (Jan 10, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> That's cool man, let us know what you think. The K100s have a lot more headroom, tighter bass, more of a balanced frequency response, and just generally holds things together under extreme conditions better. That can be a good or bad thing depending on the amp and desired tone. It's all subjective of course, I was merely asking if you had tried any other cabs at the studio, I was not criticizing your choice.
> 
> Now I know so thanks
> 
> ...



I think you are confusing the popularity of V30s with the popularity of the Mesa oversized 4x12 which happens to use V30s. There are a ton of cabs with V30s that don't sound nearly as good, and that's why they aren't being used nearly as often. Good examples: Bogner (I owned one), Orange (notorious for not micing up well), etc.

To me, Sneap is king. It's not just that he has had great results. It's that he has THE BEST results, and that's why guys like Jason Suecof have visited him and learned from him and are using similar gear as him. The Mesa oversized 4x12 specifically is a huge part of that sound. So is a tubescreamer. So many people don't use tubescreamers and use different cabs and wonder why they can't get the same results... there's a reason for that!

To be honest, I think all the ranting you do on this forum about how bad EMGs and V30s are is hilarious. Don't you think it's pretty silly to speak so badly about things that are proven to produce some of the best guitar tones ever recorded? Some of these recordings you're even admitting are some of your very own favorites...

It has nothing to do with studio magic or some untouchable knowledge that Andy Sneap, Colin Richardson, Jason Suecof, and Mark Lewis possess that you can't reach. They're using specific gear for specific reasons. Yes, they know how to get the best out of this gear, but that doesn't mean they could (or would even want to) get the same results with other gear, and it also doesn't mean that any one of us here couldn't get the same results with the same gear and recording knowledge. Atleast 90% of my favorite metal guitar tones have come from an amp boosted with a tubescreamer going into a mesa oversized 4x12. There is a reason for that, and it's not just coincidence. 

As for the Krank hate, it's unwarranted really. It's not limited to 5150s. Sneap has used Kranks, Randalls, the rackmount Dual Rectifier, the Peavey JSX, etc. The things he has used with ALL of these amps are a tubescreamer, a Mesa oversized 4x12, and a Shure SM57. GREAT results can be had. It just takes some logic and really knowing what you want and which gear will get you there. There's nothing wrong with mimicing other people's setups if you know you love the sound of those setups. heh


EDIT: oh and as far as the 5150/6505 vs 5150 II/6505+, Sneap has said multiple times he prefers the 5150/6505 for the same reasons Alex already mentioned. Just another bit of info.


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## TMM (Jan 10, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> How similar is the 5150 III to the 5150/5150 II do you think Wade? What do you like about it more? That's one of the only high-gain amps I've never played before so I'm just curious.



FWIW, IMHO, it's a completely different amp with the same name structure. It's in a similar vein, of course, but the midrange and the responsiveness are pretty different. It doesn't have the same percussive, dark tone as the original 5150 line, and is more upper-midrange based. It has a pretty clear tone, which is good for low tunings.


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## Sepultorture (Jan 10, 2010)

i can't comment on Krank tone cus that's really for lovers and haters of it to decide and tone is subjective, but a fact i can attest to as i have ALOT of experience with it, is that Krank amps are garbage, almost every one i tried had something wrong with it, 10 different krank heads and they all had something wrong with them and i've heard plenty of people complain about the bad construction of their krank amps

so in fact, Krank is shit

if it works for you great, but they got a bad rep for a reason

now the V30 thing, i think this is gunna start getting outta hand and that's effin redonkulus i say.

Nick is entitled to his opinion, as all gear is subject to the likes and dislikes of individuals and their opinions. yes i've heard some shitty V30 cabs, but i have also heard some amazing ones, for me the ENGL XXL 4x12 cab which is V30 loaded sounds monstrous, and absolute death metal machine. but he also does have a point about the V30 having short comings in it's design and frequency range.

he may like bands records sounds but records and whats hear in person will ALWAYS be different, that's a given. we don't need epic tonnes of examples of excellent engineers/producers that have pumped out amazing product. what comes out of the studio may sound good to Nick but what he hears in person is as per his tastes and opinion, of which again he is entitled to, and they WILL differ. I don't see Eric Rutan going on and on about mesa oversized cabs loade with V30's do I, there are plenty of metal producers that DON'T use cabs loaded with V30's.

let's not get things out of hand becuse you dn't under stand that Nick is simply mixing fact with his opinion, the fact is that even though amazing albums and sounds come out of V30's, they do have short comings. if he doesn't like them, fine that's his choice.

but there's no need to go on and on about THE V30 IS AMAZING, to some it is, to others it's not. and please stop confusing his basing facts as him bashing the V30 and thinking he's saying it's crap, cus that's not what he's saying at all.


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## Harry (Jan 10, 2010)

Personally I think Krank sounds pretty awful on it's own, but when it's blended in a mix it seems to add this grit and all this nice upper mids which I think sounds fantastic.
And also, agreed with Nick, I'd love to hear Alex's thoughts on how the 5150III compares directly to the 5150/5150II


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## budda (Jan 10, 2010)

My only experience with Krank was not a bad one. Not great, i wasn't blown away, but it was perfectly useable for what it was meant for.

I really want to A/B a mesa cab, marshall cab, vader, and orange to my peavey cab. Mic'd up, with my band, with the whole thing recorded. Dreamland, I'm in it


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2010)

JoshuaLogan said:


> To be honest, I think all the ranting you do on this forum about how bad EMGs and V30s are is hilarious. Don't you think it's pretty silly to speak so badly about things that are proven to produce some of the best guitar tones ever recorded? Some of these recordings you're even admitting are some of your very own favorites...



Deal with it, it's called an opinion. I don't give a shit what you or your heroes think. I don't have to use a Mesa V30 cab and EMGs just because you say so. I can love how "Wages of Sin" or "Dead Heart In A Dead World" sounds and love Andy's work while simultaneously preferring something else for my own tastes. If you want to limit yourself to only what Andy Sneap approves of, knock yourself out. There's a lot of great sounding amps, cabinets, and pickups out there.

To be honest, I think it's "hilarious" that you're such a condescending jerk who apparently can't grasp the the concept of relativity. I never said EMGs or V30s were 'bad'. For the _millionth time_ since you refuse to listen: I think they're good but I have other preferences which sound much better to my ears. Plenty of other people have differing tastes as well, including several of the revered producers you love to name drop.

What's truly hilarious is how defensive and vile people like you get when someone presents an opinion that differs from you. Get over yourself. I never came into this thread and trashed anything or anyone, I simply asked Wade if he had tried other cabinets at the studio or just the Mesa cab. It wasn't a personal attack on Celestion 



TMM said:


> FWIW, IMHO, it's a completely different amp with the same name structure. It's in a similar vein, of course, but the midrange and the responsiveness are pretty different. It doesn't have the same percussive, dark tone as the original 5150 line, and is more upper-midrange based. It has a pretty clear tone, which is good for low tunings.



Interesting, good to know. I'll check it out soon.


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## JoshuaLogan (Jan 10, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> Deal with it, it's called an opinion. I don't give a shit what you or your heroes think. I don't have to use a Mesa V30 cab and EMGs just because you say so. I can love how "Wages of Sin" or "Dead Heart In A Dead World" sounds and love Andy's work while simultaneously preferring something else for my own tastes. If you want to limit yourself to only what Andy Sneap approves of, knock yourself out. There's a lot of great sounding amps, cabinets, and pickups out there.
> 
> To be honest, I think it's "hilarious" that you're such a condescending jerk who apparently can't grasp the the concept of relativity. I never said EMGs or V30s were 'bad'. For the _millionth time_ since you refuse to listen: I think they're good but I have other preferences which sound much better to my ears. Plenty of other people have differing tastes as well, including several of the revered producers you love to name drop.
> 
> What's truly hilarious is how defensive and vile people like you get when someone presents an opinion that differs from you. Get over yourself. I never came into this thread and trashed anything or anyone, I simply asked Wade if he had tried other cabinets at the studio or just the Mesa cab. It wasn't a personal attack on Celestion



lol ok, if you say so. I never said you had to use anything. I know very well what you like and don't like, because you love to repeat yourself time and time again in order to make sales on this forum to younger impressionable kids. (and last time I said that, you got me temporarily banned from this forum lol). I just think it's really very funny that you criticize the exact gear that produces the guitar tones and albums you love. That's the kind of ignorance that causes people to laugh at this forum and think it's a joke. It just doesn't make sense. and this comes form observing MANY of your posts since I started posting here, not just what you said in this thread... that should be obvious. It's not the fact that you have a differing opinion, it's the way that you vocalize your opinions as fact, go on and on about BKPs for sales, adamantly claim there are "better" options than proven staples (like 5150, EMGs, mesa OS cab) and then after all that admit that you love Sneap's work and many of the albums he's worked on, where he used the very same gear you put down.

And just for clarification, the reason I like the gear that I do isn't because Andy Sneap or Jason Suecof or whoever uses it, it's because I love the sound they get on the albums they put out and they've proven what works for them, and anyone who takes a chance to notice can easily see a common pattern in the gear that they use. I'm not telling anyone that my opinions are fact or that anybody has to use what I like. I'm just laying out info on what these guys use and how/why they use it, because MANY people here ARE fans of Sneap, Suecof, etc. and I think some of that info can be helpful to people who are interested. It's not rocket science 

Sorry for the stupid bickering in your thread, Alex.


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## zimbloth (Jan 10, 2010)

JoshuaLogan said:


> lol ok, if you say so. I never said you had to use anything. I know very well what you like and don't like, because you love to repeat yourself time and time again in order to make sales on this forum to younger impressionable kids. (and last time I said that, you got me temporarily banned from this forum lol). I just think it's really very funny that you criticize the exact gear that produces the guitar tones and albums you love. That's the kind of ignorance that causes people to laugh at this forum and think it's a joke. It just doesn't make sense. and this comes form observing MANY of your posts since I started posting here, not just what you said in this thread... that should be obvious. It's not the fact that you have a differing opinion, it's the way that you vocalize your opinions as fact, go on and on about BKPs for sales, adamantly claim there are "better" options than proven staples (like 5150, EMGs, mesa OS cab) and then after all that admit that you love Sneap's work and many of the albums he's worked on, where he used the very same gear you put down.
> 
> And just for clarification, the reason I like the gear that I do isn't because Andy Sneap or Jason Suecof or whoever uses it, it's because I love the sound they get on the albums they put out and they've proven what works for them, and anyone who takes a chance to notice can easily see a common pattern in the gear that they use. I'm not telling anyone that my opinions are fact or that anybody has to use what I like. I'm just laying out info on what these guys use and how/why they use it, because MANY people here ARE fans of Sneap, Suecof, etc. and I think some of that info can be helpful to people who are interested. It's not rocket science
> 
> Sorry for the stupid bickering in your thread, Alex.



1) I stock more V30 cabs than non-V30 cabs, so there goes your theory jackass. Everyone with a clue knows I'm honest with my opinions no matter what. I like what I like. I own a Mesa for christ's sake dude, I've always been a Mesa fan and a 5150 fan. I recommend them and other items I have zero affiliation constantly on this forum, but why let a little thing like the truth get in the way of your smears right?

3) Again, for the TRILLIONTH TIME since you refuse to listen: I like v30 cabs, I like 5150s, and I like EMGs. There are just some other things I like *better*. What is so hard to understand about this? It's called preferences dude, what the hell is wrong with you? I like Andy Sneap's work as much as anyone but that doesn't mean I can't prefer different amps than him. 

3) I never 'got you banned' for jack squat, I don't even know who you are. Mods don't care about my opinions I assure you, if you got banned it was because they had an issue with you not me. I have zero pull here. Hell, _I've_ been banned before man. Shows what little you know about anything.

That said if you think this forum is such a joke, feel free to leave. I'm done talking to you.


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## Sepultorture (Jan 10, 2010)

ok ladies no more responding to each other, this is seriously the dumbest conflict yet

the only problem here is that one person here doesn't understand what the other meant so this got out of hand and is still out of hand, so just you two ignore eah other, cus this is pointless, really it is


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## meisterjager (Jan 11, 2010)

Uh.. Good luck with the new Whitechapel album, Alex!


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 11, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> How similar is the 5150 III to the 5150/5150 II do you think Wade? What do you like about it more? That's one of the only high-gain amps I've never played before so I'm just curious.



It really is a completely different animal. It has some of the same characteristics that the 5150/6505 has, but just sounds more refined. The gain structure is alot tighter, not as loose. It has more razor sharp attack to it than low mid growl. It still has tons of bottom end to it, but the only thing I wish the 5150 III had was the resonance control to really get the speakers moving air like the 5150 does. To me personally it sounds like the 5150 III has more gain on tap as well, not that you'd ever need any more than the 5150  but you just reach maximum saturation alot sooner on the 5150 III than you do on a regular 5150.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jan 11, 2010)

No pics? No clips? 

Nick: the 5150III is much chunkier sounding than the 6505/6505+ and as Alex says it's tighter and sharper. It's hard to describe as it's not that different from the 6505+, but I suppose one way of putting it would be it's just more brutal


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 11, 2010)

meisterjager said:


> Uh.. Good luck with the new Whitechapel album, Alex!



Hahahaha thanks man!


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## Rick (Jan 11, 2010)

Will you guys continue to use the III live?


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 11, 2010)

Rick said:


> Will you guys continue to use the III live?



Yup! I still love mine.


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## TMM (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey Alex, are you guys using any kind of a gate in the recording rig with your OD808 --> 5150 --> Recto cab, or are you gating post-tracking?

Also, when you say mic'd with 2 SM57s, is one on-axis, and the other off-axis?


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 11, 2010)

TMM said:


> Hey Alex, are you guys using any kind of a gate in the recording rig with your OD808 --> 5150 --> Recto cab, or are you gating post-tracking?
> 
> Also, when you say mic'd with 2 SM57s, is one on-axis, and the other off-axis?



They are both off axis I believe.

And no suecof doesn't use a noise gate, does all guitar silencing in post-tracking. The cab is in a quite room so there's no feedback anyways. He just has to clean up the dead air.


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## Customisbetter (Jan 11, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> The JCM800 was a big surprise, it sounded great, just not for us. I forget who he said it was modded by but it had a ridiculous amount of gain on tap. Sounded really thick and big.



Any chance the modder was a guy named "Lee Jackson"?


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## TMM (Jan 11, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> They are both off axis I believe.
> 
> And no suecof doesn't use a noise gate, does all guitar silencing in post-tracking. The cab is in a quite room so there's no feedback anyways. He just has to clean up the dead air.



Nice! Glad to hear I'm not the only one who likes doing it that way. I feel it just gets a more natural tone. Live, of course, the gate is more important.

So, you guys had that 3120 in the studio, but didn't bother adding it to the shoot-out? Why not?


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## iff (Jan 11, 2010)

Hey Alex, do you have a 2ch Dual vs 3ch Dual vs 2010 Dual opinion?


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## meisterjager (Jan 12, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> Hahahaha thanks man!


 
Looking forward to you guys rolling through the UK again soon, man! I saw you guys on the Altamont tour in London at the end of 2008. So much win in one night...


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## Leuchty (Jan 12, 2010)

haha, wow.

This thread turned interesting. Thanks for the info Alex! I bet that would have been fun.

Good luck with the new album.


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## Sang-Drax (Jan 12, 2010)

Thanks for the info, Alex!


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## Mattayus (Jan 12, 2010)

You guys ever tried the JSX? I suppose it's not aggressive enough for your sound but I've heard some people get some fucking sick metal tones out of one, super clear and punchy


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## mattofvengeance (Jan 13, 2010)

How do the block letter 5150 and the 5150II differ? I used to have a block letter, loved it, and I'm thinking about getting a II in the near future.


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## meisterjager (Jan 13, 2010)

There are no block letter 5150II's as these were released after the initial run of 5150's. Seen as there's no difference between a 5150 block and a 5150 signature, the same differences apply - 5150II has seperate EQ for each channel and an extra valve in the preamp stage, and lacks the choice of 'Normal Gain' and 'High Gain' inputs - although I'm not sure which input the 5150II has (high gain, I'd guess). 

There's some minor change in tone, but not enough to physically be able to tell them apart by sound alone, IMO.


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## TMM (Jan 13, 2010)

meisterjager said:


> There's some minor change in tone, but not enough to physically be able to tell them apart by sound alone, IMO.



The II's have a little more low end and more gain, but the I's (blockletter / signature) have a more raw, open, clear tone (which = win).


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## jsousa (Jan 13, 2010)

TMM said:


> The II's have a little more low end and more gain, but the I's (blockletter / signature) have a more raw, open, clear tone (which = win).



incorrect, the II's have more mid range and less gain, the I's are more raw, more gain, more girth


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## JoshuaLogan (Jan 13, 2010)

jsousa said:


> incorrect, the II's have more mid range and less gain, the I's are more raw, more gain, more girth



This.


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## TMM (Jan 13, 2010)

jsousa said:


> incorrect



After years of playing both amps, as well as working for a Peavey dealer, I will have to say that I am, in fact, correct. Obviously, when comparing the two heads, tubes used in both / speakers used in the cabs / guitars / pickups / pedals will have a bearing on the results. But, with identical rigs, except for the amp itself...



jsousa said:


> the II's have more mid range...



Maybe more perceived midrange, as the _increased_ preamp gain also causes more natural compression



jsousa said:


> ... and less gain...



Incorrect



jsousa said:


> ... the I's are more raw...



Correct (as is true with almost any amp vs a similar amp with more gain - look at a JCM800 vs a JCM900)



jsousa said:


> ... more gain ...



Incorrect



jsousa said:


> ... more girth



Correct (again, pretty much always the truth comparing an amp with less preamp gain to an amp with more - again, JCM800 vs JCM900)



TMM said:


> So, you guys had that 3120 in the studio, but didn't bother adding it to the shoot-out? Why not?



Any word on this one, Alex?


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## metalvince333 (Jan 13, 2010)

Hey alex, I see that you tried the bogner, I may trade my framus ruby riot for one of these ubershall's with a hughes & kettner cab with V30's and I was wondering how it is cause the framus distortion is really tight and kinda engl ish but with more character and tighter sound, I was wondering how the bogner could be described?


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 13, 2010)

metalvince333 said:


> Hey alex, I see that you tried the bogner, I may trade my framus ruby riot for one of these ubershall's with a hughes & kettner cab with V30's and I was wondering how it is cause the framus distortion is really tight and kinda engl ish but with more character and tighter sound, I was wondering how the bogner could be described?



The Bogner is tight but not Engl tight at all. It has more sag to it like a rectifier but it doesn't sound as mushy as a rectifier. With a tubescreamer boosting it, it was definitely tight enough for any modern metal sound. It was dark sounding in a good way, it sounded pissed off hahaha.


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## metalvince333 (Jan 13, 2010)

ummm ok I think ill check out some more trades around before I make a move.Thanks!


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## AlexWadeWC (Jan 13, 2010)

TMM said:


> Any word on this one, Alex?




I've never even played on the 3120, so I guess we could have tried it, but it just didn't look like something i would be into. Then again, i guess we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover huh?


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## mattofvengeance (Jan 13, 2010)

meisterjager said:


> There are no block letter 5150II's as these were released after the initial run of 5150's. Seen as there's no difference between a 5150 block and a 5150 signature, the same differences apply - 5150II has seperate EQ for each channel and an extra valve in the preamp stage, and lacks the choice of 'Normal Gain' and 'High Gain' inputs - although I'm not sure which input the 5150II has (high gain, I'd guess).
> 
> There's some minor change in tone, but not enough to physically be able to tell them apart by sound alone, IMO.



I should've switched the order of the two (5150II and blockletter 5150) cause I know the IIs came after the block letter. I was just trying to see what the difference is between the II and the block letter I used to own, and I've got conflicting answers haha.


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## TMM (Jan 13, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> I've never even played on the 3120, so I guess we could have tried it, but it just didn't look like something i would be into. Then again, i guess we shouldn't judge a book by it's cover huh?



Haha, I guess not. Funny since you had one right there, too. It's basically (if not exactly) a Triple-X with EL34s stock instead of 6L6s. I tried one out a little bit ago, and liked it, so I was just curious what your take on it was compared to the other amps, since I never got to hear it through a decent cab (only through the matching Peavey cab).


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## jsousa (Jan 13, 2010)

every 5150 MK1 I've tried has much more gain and less mids (of some range) than the MK2


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## mattofvengeance (Jan 13, 2010)

Man I want a boosted Uber like nobody's business. That's an amp I've wanted ever since I started playing guitar.


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## Rick (Jan 13, 2010)

AlexWadeWC said:


> It was dark sounding in a good way, it sounded pissed off hahaha.



So why aren't you guys using it?


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## Arsis (Jan 13, 2010)

TMM said:


> Hey Alex, are you guys using any kind of a gate in the recording rig with your OD808 --> 5150 --> Recto cab, or are you gating post-tracking?
> 
> Also, when you say mic'd with 2 SM57s, is one on-axis, and the other off-axis?



Noob question.
What is this on/off=axis business?

EDIT: also if this is not stated elsewhere, did you use similar gear of your past 2 albums?


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## TMM (Jan 13, 2010)

Arsis said:


> Noob question.
> What is this on/off=axis business?



On-axis:







Off-axis:






I haven't actually read this, so I can't vouch for the quality of the content, but it's where I found the pics:

An Idiot's Guide To Home Recording v2 - REBORN


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## axeman720 (Feb 4, 2010)

zimbloth said:


> Did you get to try any other cabs? I ask because V30s seriously hold those killer amps you mentioned back. If you're after tightness, punch, and definition with low tunings, V30s are one of the last speakers I'd turn to. Not trying to rag on your stuff, just want to help. I had your cab for about 8 years and really wish I knew what I know now then.
> 
> Does the studio have any cabs loaded with different speakers? Maybe G12-K100s? CL80s? Perhaps P50Es or other Eminence speakers? Relative to v30s, all of these are much tighter, much clearer, better headroom, and just generally are equipped to handle your kind of music better than V30s. In my line of work I get to conduct extensive 'A/B' comparisons between different cabinets _constantly_; you really learn a lot. Just my




Yoo. This is Mark Lewis, i engineered the drums on the whitechapel, and helped dial in the guitar sounds. I also mic'd the guitar cab. 

I've mic'd tons of cabs throughout the years and while i'd like to have quite a few more cabs here, i gotta say there is very specific reasons most of us stick with v30's in the studio. You will notice this on most (i'd say 90%) records that are coming out with big distorted guitar sounds today are done on v30 speakers.

They have a very specifically sweet tone that sounds really great when mic'd up with an sm57. Also, the cabinet construction itself is ESSENTIAL to the sound of the cab too, especially when mic'd. For instance i LOVE marshall and bogner cabs with v30's for leads but not as much for tight metal rhythms. I usually prefer an oversized mesa for rhythms and do like some other cabs but dont have them here and dont particularly feel a huge need for them.

Also, take for instance how most people think the traditional recto cabs are tighter, and the oversize looser and murkier. In the room, this may be the case, but mic'd up its a VERY different story. The traditional is less focused, more midrangey and flabbier mic'd up. The oversize comes accross tighter, darker and more focused and balanced from mids to low end.

Now here is something people dont take into account when it comes to recording guitars and speakers. 

I myself, am not after, in anyway an efficient or clean speaker for a distorted guitar sound. The name of the game here IS BREAKUP. A very specific, rich and not overdone breakup that ads to the guitar sound and helps it sit in the mix. Not take a way from it. You see, distortion, especially in rock and metal is our friend. As mixers and engineers we may actually strive to make an instrument like guitar, vocal, drums, clip and distort in a very specific way even while recording it. The distortion can bring out things harmonically that we went and even help push an instrument forward in the mix without necessarily being louder or more cumbersome.

I find that higher power speakers just are too clean and can be very sterile, boring, fizzy and far to hi-fi too really try and control into a sound that i can use in a final mix. Specifically speakers like g1280s, EVH12ls, g12k and those new celestions are just far to efficient to get the sound i myself envision for my recordings and other recordings i am hired to do.

I hope this helps explain why alot of times modern speaker designs do not make it onto recordings. I think you'll notice that most of us actually do use very ineffecient sound recording gear and techniques, whether it be microphones, mic preamps, compressors etc... Most of my mic preamps are designs from the late 60s-70s and some are even built then. Microphones are the same way. Shit, even our plug ins are modelled after things that distort and operate in a way we like the sound. Know what i mean?

Also, as far as the mics the go. They were both on axis pointed on each of the side speaker about where the dustcap meets the cone. 

I was able to get both mics (sm57s through API 312 preamps) pretty closely aligned phase wise but even then with two mics you have to be VERY careful that phasing is not causing any big problems.

The main mic was about 6db louder than the 2nd mic and was really on there just to add a tad more beef. The guitar sounds could have been ok without it really. 

I rarely if ever use any off axis micing heavier guitar sounds. Not saying its bad, but not what i am looking for, and most clients wouldnt care for that either.



Hope this helps.



TMM said:


> After years of playing both amps, as well as working for a Peavey dealer, I will have to say that I am, in fact, correct. Obviously, when comparing the two heads, tubes used in both / speakers used in the cabs / guitars / pickups / pedals will have a bearing on the results. But, with identical rigs, except for the amp itself...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The 3120 is not working at the moment thats why we didnt test it.

Also, i find the 5150II (or 6505+) to sounds a bit "refined" 

I think the amp itself is a tiny bit tighter on the lows, has a hair less gain, a hair more mids and may even be just a hair thinner on the highs.

I find my block letter to be more a bit more crunchy, looser and hairier up top in a slighty thicker way. It is a bit more raw and out of control to me, but not in a bad way. 

I love both amps and honestly most people would have a hard time telling them apart in a full mix.



Customisbetter said:


> Any chance the modder was a guy named "Lee Jackson"?





Nope martin galoub modded my 800 for Custom Audio Electronics in LA. Bob Bradshaw designed the mod. Martin now works for diamond amps as a lead designer last i heard.



zimbloth said:


> I'm fully aware there's a ton of great sounding records that use V30s dude, including some of my favorite tones of all time. That says a lot more about the engineer's abilities than v30's prowess however. In the studio, in the hands of a good engineer, you can really make almost anything sound great. Wasn't Carcass' 'Heartwork' recorded with some cheesy 15W Marshall?
> 
> ]




And no way. Heartwork was recorded with a 5150 through TWO marshall cabinets frankensteined into on giant cab. It had v30s in it.

The engineer had two marshalls, took the speakers out of one and plugged the holes with stool tops took the backs off both cabinets and then taped and glued the backs together to make a giant sized marshall. Basically he doubled the size of the cabinet and lowered the resonant frequency by an octave to help get the freaky low end. 

One 57 was pionted dead center and the other 57 was pointed at the edge of the speaker with both mics on axis and at the same level. They used neve preamps.

I know this to be fact because the engineer keith andrews is both mine and Jason Suecofs tech on call here at the studio. He is head tech at fullsail now. Has lived in the states for about 12 years now i think.


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## Shaman (Feb 5, 2010)

Thanks for all the info Mark! 

It's cool to have inside information from people who really make the albums sound the way they do.

How much post processing Jason usually apply to the rhythm guitar tracks? People seem to have the idea that even the rhythm guitar tracks are EQ'd, compressed and edited to hell and back to make the V30's sound good, which to me sounds ridicilous.

Why spend hours finding the sweet spot for the mic, ideal settings etc. just to edit the living s*** out of the tracks. I just don't understand the logic.

I have always loved the V30's, especially when tracking guitars. The SM57/V30 combination just works like a charm. I have also found that the Mesa Oversize cab just dominates when tracking, whereas the smaller Orange cab I have doesen't really work that well in a mix.

Keep up the good work!

Oh, and it seems I got neg-repped for one of my earlier posts  Cheers...


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## axeman720 (Feb 6, 2010)

Myself and jason do eq quite a bit most of the time in the final mix. Sometimes more, sometimes less. As far as editing is concerned that has to do with how well the guitar player is performing, the type of the riff and the particular sound i am going for. Editing usually takes place during tracking, not mixing. Cutting out the silence during stops might happen after, but when im tracking im editing and comping the best take together on the spot. Thats why i gotta be so quick with pro tools.

I rarely, if ever compress distorted guitars. I just dont see the need too in this genre. Every mixer is different some guys dont eq too much and some guys might have the same tracks and eq the living hell out of it. There is no right or wrong.


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## Luafcm (Mar 23, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *TMM* 

 
_The II's have a little more low end and more gain, but the I's (blockletter / signature) have a more raw, open, clear tone (which = win)._



jsousa said:


> incorrect, the II's have more mid range and less gain, the I's are more raw, more gain, more girth



Maybe the difference is the suspension in the truck that delivered the preamp tubes?


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## Arsis (Mar 23, 2010)

Luafcm said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *TMM*
> 
> 
> ...


 
Holy shit.


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