# ABSOLUTELY most stable neck wood combo??



## SnowfaLL (Feb 3, 2014)

I'm having some major issues with necks lately. I've had necks warp in the past (while under the possession of certain respected members of this forum, not even at my location yet) and I thought going the Roasted Maple route would help clear this up.. Guthrie Govan swears by it, and many others say it is virtually impossible to warp.

I sent a huge Roasted Maple block to Carvin to use in a neck, it was by a guy off ebay who has 100% feedback with several hundred transactions, all selling roasted maple wood for guitars. He also deals with many small shops, such as USA Custom Guitars (in which I've contacted Tommy for a reference, and he praised the guy) - So it seems like the guy knew what he was doing with his wood (Not to mention, NO WHERE ELSE in North American has the size of wood needed for this guitar.)

When my wood arrived at Carvin, they said it warped and had a pretty bad 1/2" bow. They were hesitant to use it. I told Carvin to try cutting it for their dimensions anyways, and see if it warped any further after two weeks, and unfortunately it did. So that $200 block of wood is essentially worthless now, but more important is my faith in trusting wood in general. I've had a 5 piece maple neck .... up last year, I just received another 5 piece maple neck from Canuck_Brian's house that had the frets sticking out when it arrived (it shrunk back to being fine now, but the point being that is NOT a good sign) and now the "savior" Roasted Maple doesn't even seem any different.

Not to mention, the roasted maple on a Carvin would void any warranty for a return. 

So I am left wondering if I should just try Carvin's own wood again, and hopefully choose a combination that won't completely shit the bed in 3-5-10 years. I'm starting to think the only option for a "stable" guitar is going Carbon Fiber, like my Emerald acoustic. But obviously, I can't use that with Carvin and I've already paid $2500 on this order, not to mention I won't find a Carbon fiber builder under $7500. (Which is my plan in 2015 now)

Since this is the luthier forum, I am hoping to have some experienced luthiers comment on which is the ABSOLUTE most stable combination out of these options:

5-Piece All-Mahogany Neck
5-Piece Koa Neck w/ 2 Maple Stripes
5-Piece Koa Neck w/ 2 Walnut Stripes
5-Piece Maple Neck w/ 2 Koa Stripes
5-Piece Maple Neck w/ 2 Mahogany Stripes
5-Piece All-Maple Neck
5-Piece Maple Neck w/ 2 Walnut Stripes
5-Piece Walnut Neck w/ 2 Koa Stripes 
5-Piece Walnut Neck w/ 2 Maple Stripes 

Also, would Satin finish provide as much or more protection than Gloss for the back of the neck? I will never get tung oil/unfinished again, thats a disaster waiting to happen.


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## Purelojik (Feb 3, 2014)

sorry for your bad luck buddy. 

thing you have to look for, rather than how many pieces you glue together, is the cut of wood. you'll want to invest in straight grain quartersawn everything. if not then youlll have to use pieces of wood and glue them in opposition to eachother to counteract their natural tendency to twist. 

next is finding a piece which is dried sufficiently . Mr Perry ormsby has a nice write up about that somewhere, i believe in the etherial guitars thread. 

just cause something is heralded as being unable to warp doesn't mean it cant. Its a natural product and nature will do what it wants. 

your other alternative is to look into aluminum or graphite necks. in the few guitars i've built i've only had a plank of wood warp so bad to the point where i couldnt fix it, once. 

good luck buddy, dont give up


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 3, 2014)

Unfortunately most of that is out of my control when I am paying a company like Carvin to build it.. They use their woods, and all I can do is pick the wood combinations. Least if I do go with their wood instead of the roasted maple I supplied them, I have 5 years of warranty so if it warps, I can return it. But still, not something I want to have to do (esp since their shipping policy change, every guitar sent from the Carvin Factory to Canada is a good $300-500 in customs fees, even including a warranty return)


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## Eliguy666 (Feb 4, 2014)

Of those nine, I'd probably say 5 piece 3 walnut/2 maple stripes. It would also be good to get one of the thicker finishes they offer to prevent moisture changes.


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## TheWarAgainstTime (Feb 4, 2014)

Eliguy666 said:


> Of those nine, I'd probably say 5 piece 3 walnut/2 maple stripes. It would also be good to get one of the thicker finishes they offer to prevent moisture changes.



I've got that combo on my TL60 and it feels solid as hell  no warping or anything to speak of, just a normal/tiny amount of forward bow to prevent buzzing. I've only had it for the better part of a year, but still haha

My Jackson has a one-piece quartersawn maple neck w/scarf joint and it's never had any problems in the 4 years I've owned it, plus I bought it used, so even a possibly irresponsible previous owner didn't .... it up either.


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## darren (Feb 4, 2014)

That's really weird that the roasted maple warped, unless it was just a bad piece of wood to begin with. Warpage isn't always caused by moisture. Every piece of wood has tension in it that gets released when it's cut. That piece must have been exceptionally wonky.

Get whatever wood has been seasoned the longest and has the straightest grain. I can't say i've heard too many stories about Carvin necks twisting at all.

Of their options, i would say go with 5-piece maple with walnut stripes. 

Satin or gloss shouldn't make a difference. Both will offer better protection than oil.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 4, 2014)

What about as far as wood expanding/contracting between going on stage under hot lights to out into -30 (c) cold? (after a show, load out) - I haven't played too many gigs in winter in the past few years, but If my 5 piece maple/maple can go from feeling the frets poking out even after leaving it in the shipping box for 5 hours in my house, only settling back to normal in 2 days, how bad will a guitar be when its going from the stage to outside in 30 minutes??

What wood does the least amount of expanding/contracting? Koa, Walnut? Doesn't seem like Maple does a great job.


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## Necris (Feb 4, 2014)

I would look in to mahogany out of those options listed. 

The next thing I would look in to would be Acrylic Stabilized wood; it's expensive but it has many of the benefits of composite materials, while still looking/feeling like wood.


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## asfeir (Feb 4, 2014)

Quartersawn maple and fillets can be quite durable.
My mij ibanez S from 1992 has a maple neck that never moved by a fraction of mm, and I live in a country where humidity fluctuates So much.


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## MaCkCiTy (Feb 4, 2014)

Brutal! I live in Australia, I can't even comprehend -30, anything under say 24C, I'm wearing 3 layers, I won't lie! 
Back on subject, you get a bolt on body with hardware from Carvin and get a carbon fibre (or the like) from someone else?


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## Pablo (Feb 4, 2014)

If you are really paranoid about wood... just avoid it! Pick up a Moses graphite neck or just buy a Vigier with that lovely lump of carbon running down its maple spine.

Cheers

Eske


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## RV350ALSCYTHE (Feb 4, 2014)

It has been hitting -24 to -30 around here the past couple weeks.
The only problem i've ever had with necks is needing truss adjustments every spring and mid-winter.

I have two one-piece maple 8 string necks from carvin and they've been solid.

It may be due to the extra humidity on the east coast? I'm just guessing


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## Keyvanizator (Feb 4, 2014)

I've had the same thoughts, I wanted to order a custom guitar and what I wanted the most was the most stable neck possible in order to have a long lasting playable guitar.

My custom Ran Crusher has a 5 pieces neck (3 sapele + 2 wenge) with 1 dual action truss rod and 4 carbon fiber reinforcement rods.







I don't trust wood either, that is why I made RAN use so many rods.
I love the result, but only time will tell if it was worth it.

I don't have experience with guitar finishes much, but I've built some furniture and between satin and gloss there should be no difference.
What the finishing process does is to isolate the inside of the wood from the outside. It seals the wood and prevents the exchange of humidity.
There is difference between water and solvent based finishes - water based are stronger - but I don't think carvin offers water based finishes.
If you want an oiled neck, make sure to keep it oiled or humidity will play your guitar in your place.

Regarding woods combinations: I have some experience with maple, mahogany and walnut.
To be honest, I do not think they are much different. Even in the same tree, cuts with the same grain orientation are more stable than others.
Wood is always a bet. At this point, I'd tell you to choose based on Carvin's builders experience, or based on what colors you like most.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 4, 2014)

Unfortunately, carvin makes such great guitars for the price and quality that no where else can compete. For what they are making me, with a one piece quilted top and custom finish, it would be well over $6000 with suhr. It's less than half that even with $400 of customs in Canada for carvin. 

I did inquire with emerald guitars though on his electric prices, as I love my new acoustic and it's carbon fiber is super solid.. I'm expecting $4000 minimum but that may be worth it, ESP going with a luthier I trust (the biggest issue, I rather not deal with obscure, BRJ types ever again)


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 7, 2014)

I guess my question should of been phrased "What is the most DIMENSIONAL STABLE" wood.. As in, a wood that will do the least amount of contracting/expanding and shifting over time.

All i've research so far shows that while certain woods may not be as hard like maple, they do not shift as much as Maple does. Maple's dimensional stability is "average" where softer woods such as walnut and mahogany are above average to excellent.

I understand where companies look at Gibson's headstocks snapping off and saying "Mahogany is a worse neck wood compared to Maple/Fender's which stand for 40+ years" but it seems they are looking at literal breaking points, not warping and shifting.


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## TRENCHLORD (Feb 7, 2014)

Denser/heavier object would have more expansion potential I'd think. 
Sense there's more mass in the same amount of volume ?
Maybe I'm saying it backwards?


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## elq (Feb 7, 2014)

NickCormier said:


> For what they are making me, with a one piece quilted top and custom finish, it would be well over $6000 with suhr.



One thing to keep in mind, the price you see on Carvin's website and in their catalog is the direct price, but Suhr uses dealers. Suhr's MAP is 70% of their retail price and there is a fair chance you can go a bit lower as the dealer price is around 50% I think. For example, a 1-piece quilt top is something like a $100 up charge over book matched quilt. And I've never seen an up-charge for any custom finishes other than the alge-like finish they've done on burl maple. I have a custom drip Suhr and there was no up-charge over the normal drip cost. 


Now to the question of stable neck wood, the most solid necks I own are pau-ferro and rosewood. Mahogany seems to move the most and maple is somewhere between mahogany and pau-ferro & rosewood.


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## TRENCHLORD (Feb 7, 2014)

I've always read that mahogany, even though less dense and strong is actually more resistant to twisting than maple or walnut, due to it's grain pattern.
Like in the tonewood debate though it's probably more piece specific than species specific.

I'd be inclined to say "Just trust Carvin man, they know what they're doing.", but those kind of extreme temps play hell with about all materials.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 7, 2014)

TRENCHLORD said:


> I've always read that mahogany, even though less dense and strong is actually more resistant to twisting than maple or walnut, due to it's grain pattern.
> Like in the tonewood debate though it's probably more piece specific than species specific.
> 
> I'd be inclined to say "Just trust Carvin man, they know what they're doing.", but those kind of extreme temps play hell with about all materials.



i've read about 30 lumber/wood/construction websites over the past 2 weeks and this is what I've read too. Mahogany moves much less than maple. Walnut is supposively the best of the 3 though when it comes to warping/twisting.


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## Necris (Feb 7, 2014)

Mahogany with Walnut stripes it is, then.


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## penguin_316 (Feb 7, 2014)

Mahoghany with purple heart stripes, thank me later


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## hardvalve (Feb 8, 2014)

Moses graphite is the ONLY thing that will be 100% for sure stable. Since you have stated tone woods is a non existent issue, this should be a good option.


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## SnowfaLL (Feb 8, 2014)

It has to be wood as it is a Carvin guitar (already paid for), there is no better guitar company for the price (or double the price for that matter) that are willing to do literally everything I want except use carbon fiber. Of course I'd want carbon fiber if it was possible, if you see my NGD last week of the Emerald X10. I must follow some of Carvin's rules unfortunately, and their rules are the options of wood choices in my post.

I've heard some pretty bad things about Moses also, fretwork is very hit or miss. Wouldn't touch.


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## vansinn (Feb 8, 2014)

None of my guitars over the years, made with different woods, has had warpings - except a small amount on my early 70's Dan Armstrong mahogany neck, but it looks like it wasn't quartersawn, so..
Only two of my modern guitars (7-string Wollf bass and Schecter Riot 8 axe) have had laminated necks.
My '87 Duesenberg's maple neck is as stable as it gets.
My el cheapo Samick acoustic (1745 dkk), with a likely not too expensive mahogany neck, is actually the most stable of them all, hardly even needs a retune.

I believe it's mostly about correctly seasoned woods, knowledge and craftmanship.


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## hardvalve (Feb 8, 2014)

NickCormier said:


> It has to be wood as it is a Carvin guitar (already paid for), there is no better guitar company for the price (or double the price for that matter) that are willing to do literally everything I want except use carbon fiber. Of course I'd want carbon fiber if it was possible, if you see my NGD last week of the Emerald X10. I must follow some of Carvin's rules unfortunately, and their rules are the options of wood choices in my post.
> 
> I've heard some pretty bad things about Moses also, fretwork is very hit or miss. Wouldn't touch.



Bummer. Their headless guitar really interests me. If they would use a carbon fiber neck, they would have my money for sure.


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## tptb73 (Apr 3, 2015)

SnowfaLL said:


> I'm having some major issues with necks lately. I've had necks warp in the past (while under the possession of certain respected members of this forum, not even at my location yet) and I thought going the Roasted Maple route would help clear this up.. Guthrie Govan swears by it, and many others say it is virtually impossible to warp.
> 
> I sent a huge Roasted Maple block to Carvin to use in a neck, it was by a guy off ebay who has 100% feedback with several hundred transactions, all selling roasted maple wood for guitars. He also deals with many small shops, such as USA Custom Guitars (in which I've contacted Tommy for a reference, and he praised the guy) - So it seems like the guy knew what he was doing with his wood (Not to mention, NO WHERE ELSE in North American has the size of wood needed for this guitar.)
> 
> ...




I've owned three Carvins, but I had neck-stability problems with all of them. I swore I would never own one again and wound up using Parkers. Parkers have their own issues, but the necks are super stable. I live in Miami. I used to have to adjust my Carvin necks every 3 months or so. The Parkers will go a year. The upside is that I learned how to do a setup very well. Anyway, I would gladly go back to Carvin if they would offer a roasted maple neck option.


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## 7stg (Apr 3, 2015)

Top Ten Hardest Woods | The Wood Database
The Mechanical Properties of Wood 1
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplgtr/fplgtr190/chapter_05.pdf

Get either satin or gloss finish. Do not get tung oil, it's not a complete seal which can allow the wood to warp.
Carbon fiber, if done right is the most stable possible.


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## SnowfaLL (Apr 3, 2015)

I guess since this was necro-bumped, I'll give an update. Went with the 5pc mahogany and a thick thick gloss finish over it all, and it worked out well. Been a year now since I've owned this guitar and its been super solid. I'm pretty happy with mahogany, as far as wood goes (doesnt touch my Carbon Fiber Emerald obviously). 

Every guitar in the future will most likely have mahogany necks. I'm considering Mahogany with maple stripes for my next one just to save some cost, but always mahogany on the other-sides of the neck for sure.


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## mniel8195 (Apr 3, 2015)

i would just let carvin do what they do best. I would never source wood for someone else to use. If carvin cant make your guitar have suhr do it! Tom Anderson does the roasted neck as well.


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## Hollowway (Apr 3, 2015)

As long as this is alive again (and thanks for the update, SnowfaLL - it's always nice to see these threads get some sort of closure) I have a question about the warping. It's jjst frok moisture, right? So in drier areas its not as much of a problem?


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## Alberto7 (Apr 3, 2015)

I've had my fully-tung oiled Carvin for 5 years, and I've only had to adjust the neck twice, and I didn't really need to. The thing plays like butter, and I barely ever have to adjust it. That Carvin has seen 3 different countries, 3 different continents, and 5 apartments/houses, all with vastly different climates (from super humid and dry desert, to humid continental, and 3 frozen bone-dry Canadian winters). It's a 5-piece koa neck with maple stripes.

I do treat it like it's an actual human being though, and it's the one instrument that I always keep within my sight. It's never spent a night outside of its case, either.


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## SnowfaLL (Apr 4, 2015)

it all seems to be luck based. I baby my guitars too (never outside of case, nowhere near windows/heaters, etc) and some just are more unstable than others, especially tung oiled. For now, I only trust mahogany and gloss finishes, as it eliminates most concerns because mahogany is the most dimensionally stable wood Carvin offers (least shrinkage/movement in each direction) - EVERY wood has it, thats why sometimes at different parts of the year, your frets stick out slightly more than usual. It's why I'm a strong supporter of carbon fiber (but unfortunately, a stronger supporter of Carvin)

for more info on wood dimensional stability - Dimensional Shrinkage | The Wood Database


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## 7stg (Apr 4, 2015)

Drying and Control of Moisture Content and Dimensional Changes

Wood as an engineering material - Forest Products Laboratory - USDA Forest Service


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## Alberto7 (Apr 4, 2015)

^ Huh, funny. I wrote a paper for one of my classes a couple of weeks ago on the benefits of using high-grade, seasoned woods for instrument crafting, and those are some of the exact sources that I used.


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## redstone (Apr 4, 2015)

I'll bet on purpleheart / claro walnut.


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## Obstsalat (Apr 4, 2015)

I'd say the wood itself does not matter that much as long as it's hardwood

maple, mahagony, walnut, wenge, rosewood, ebony will all be sufficient.

As already mentioned, the dryness and how the pieces are cut concerning grain is far more important.

If you want to avoid warping with 100% certainty, you'd have to go carbon fibre or the plastic stuff from aristedes


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## UnderTheSign (Apr 4, 2015)

Hollowway said:


> As long as this is alive again (and thanks for the update, SnowfaLL - it's always nice to see these threads get some sort of closure) I have a question about the warping. It's jjst frok moisture, right? So in drier areas its not as much of a problem?


It's from a difference in humidity. So wether you live in a dry or moist climate matters less than the fluctuation in humidity. It'll be more of a problem in areas that have warm summers and cold winters than areas with a more constant climate.

That's just humidity related warping though. Wood can also warp because of internal tension (present in tree growth and can occur when machining and while drying afterwards).


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## Hollowway (Apr 4, 2015)

UnderTheSign said:


> It's from a difference in humidity. So wether you live in a dry or moist climate matters less than the fluctuation in humidity. It'll be more of a problem in areas that have warm summers and cold winters than areas with a more constant climate.
> 
> That's just humidity related warping though. Wood can also warp because of internal tension (present in tree growth and can occur when machining and while drying afterwards).



I live in a relatively stable climate (Northern California), so I think I'm good there, but I worry about having this high priced customs. How often do neck warp? I'm assuming it's pretty rare, but it would be interesting to know what the odds are in general.


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## Obstsalat (Apr 5, 2015)

carvins are very unlikely to warp i think. they use quality woods from what i've heard.

Friend of mine has a carvin and that is a super solid instrument.

But you know, you can always get unlucky and mother nature says: NO!

In the end, you don't pay the money for reduced odds of neck warp but for a highly personified and unique instrument and a premium fretwork.

You can also buy yourself a KM-7 for about 1k and get a professional fretjob+setup, if you are torn cuz of the pricetag. It's probably gonna play/sound just as good as a custom after that.

You should never go custom, if you are not 100% sure


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## olejason (Apr 5, 2015)

graphite or aluminum


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