# How late is acceptable from a custom builder(Kiesel)?



## icipher (Feb 28, 2017)

I've ordered two Kiesel's in the past year.

The first one was finished 2 weeks late, which was fine. Good guitar for sure.

The 2nd one I ordered back in mid November was part of the Aries run. Estimate completion was early to mid February, with the thought that it quite possibly could be done earlier(according to Kiesel.) Tons of guys from this batch who ordered the same time I did got their guitars back in mid December. From the research I've done, I am one of the last, if not THE last person to get their guitar.

My salesman at Kiesel never really seems to know what's going on with my guitar. Just that it's been "almost ready!!!" for a while now. 

In scenarios like this, is it unreasonable to be a bit frustrated? I wouldn't mind so much if there were others still waiting, but from everything I've read and people I've spoken to, it seems like the VAST majority of people from that Aries run have had their guitars for some time now. We're two weeks past estimated completion date and I am not sure when I'll see this thing. If it's done this week, great, I won't worry about it.

What do you think?


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## marcwormjim (Feb 28, 2017)

I've been in your position, and I'm unsure if this is the best way to deal with it.

Every completion date quoted in the builder/email/call/postcard confirmation is "estimated." Kiesel lead times are way longer than they were when I ordered an H2T in 2011 and, even then, they took longer than quoted. In November 2016, they took several weeks to fabricate an "in-stock" pickup for me. This was after being made to wait most of a year for a pickup they were selling to others, on the grounds that they were trying to wind a stock of them before they made them available for sale. There are some damned nice guys working at Kiesel, but they aren't allowed to warn or admit when production is screwed up.

This site has no shortage of Kiesel-bashers, and Kiesel reps are themselves banned from posting here. That you're asking here and not on their own site or email forms suggest you're more interested in blowing off steam or fanning their flames than receiving a definitive answer to your question.

Having said that, your situation sucks - And whether it's "acceptable" or not is up to how you act on that value-judgement: It's one of those things where the only way you can truly communicate that you find the delays unacceptable is to return the guitar as soon as you receive it, being sure to cite lousy customer service and misleading quoted lead-times. 

I'm not saying either of you are in the right or wrong - Just that, at this level of business, it takes speaking with your wallet to get a point across to a company that employs a lip-service department (again, consisting of some truly swell guys, going by all I've seen or heard from them). 

I have no doubt you can get an apology, but it will be from their hired apology department; and not the department to have made any of the mistakes they're accused of making. So you're stuck in a crummy place where, even if the guitar is great, keeping it past the return-by date is to tell Kiesel that everything was okay - Even though it clearly isn't. In my previous dealings with Carvin/Kiesel, the quality of the products were the deciding factor in swallowing my complaints. Unfortunately, the success they're enjoying means that the money alienated customers or prospective customers chose to spend on another brand carries no weight for consideration.

Big business, eh?


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## High Plains Drifter (Feb 28, 2017)

I think that a delayed completion date should be acceptable for certain reasons and acceptable within a relatively realistic time-frame. Like you said... a couple weeks.. maybe even longer depending on the circumstances for the delay. But I also think that your concerns are warranted since you're saying that they don't really seem to be giving you definitive answers and also since most other guitars from the same run are already in the hands of their owners. The question regarding "what's acceptable" may be fairly subjective here. 

What I would instead do, would be to call them and insist that you get some no-nonsense answers. IMO you deserve to be in the loop at this point in regards to it's stage of completion as well as when they expect it to be shipped. I wouldn't be rude and I wouldn't bombard them but I would be very adamant that you want REAL answers and that you are concerned because you feel like you're getting the run-around... or however you feel. There's nothing wrong with putting your foot down and insisting that you receive the information that you're after. If it was much earlier in the build process I wouldn't make the same suggestions but it's late enough at this point that at least in my opinion you have every right to have concerns and want some honest communication from them. 

Luckily Kiesel isn't a fly-by-night builder so I don't think you have anything to worry about regarding horror-story type scenarios... just seems that maybe something has delayed things. Best of luck and I hope that you find resolve sooner rather than later.


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## Mathemagician (Feb 28, 2017)

It really is up to you. But around NAMM time that event becomes everyone's focus and production tends to slow to a crawl. Just for future planning.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 28, 2017)

To be fair though, in your situation it was a big run with a lot of guitars being built, plus the timeframe is a horrible time to order stuff (x-mas through namm) and they do say that it's an estimated completion time. I know the wait is hard having ordered a vm8 last year (felt like the longest 3 months of my life) but a couple extra weeks is really not a big deal in the scheme of things. Some people have been waiting years to get a guitar from other builders.


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## bostjan (Feb 28, 2017)

Not trying to defend the practice, but a couple weeks delay shouldn't really be anything to worry you.

Order from a small builder, and expect the project to take twice the quoted time, then plus or minus six months. For Kiesel, maybe plus or minus two months, before you should maybe ask what's going on.

Several years ago, I ordered a BC Rich MB7 (this was right when they started making 7s in the USA CS). I was told six months. About two years later, I had the coolest guitar I had ever held in my hands up to that point.


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## narad (Feb 28, 2017)

Yea, I've had multiple guitars wind up multiple years late. Not justifying any failure to deliver on time, but guitar builders as a whole have really gone to extremes here.


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## Lorcan Ward (Feb 28, 2017)

There are a couple of active Kiesel guys on their FB group. I don't know their names off the top of my head but they could get you answer quickly if you message them. 



narad said:


> Yea, I've had multiple guitars wind up multiple years late. Not justifying any failure to deliver on time, but guitar builders as a whole have really gone to extremes here.



Reminds me I ordered a custom guitar that was 30 months late. Thankfully that ordeal is over.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 1, 2017)

Situations like this really depend on the builder, and with a company like Kiesel I wouldn't lose a lot of sleep. Worst case scenario is that you'll just have to wait a while. I hate waiting, you hate waiting, but at least you know that Kiesel *will* send you a guitar.

I would really only be agitated if I called them up and laid out what you laid out here, and still didn't get an answer. Call them up, let them know that it seems strange that you're so far behind everybody else and that we're now past the estimated completion date and that you're just curious what the hold up is. That you aren't upset that it's not done yet, you're just curious about where production on it is because you're excited. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to tell you "Yeah, we're having a problem sourcing pickups" or something like that if that's what's backing them up; it's even in their benefit to do so.

See if you can get a progress shot or something, maybe. I haven't ordered a Kiesel so I don't know if that's something they do or not, but it couldn't hurt to ask.


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## mnemonic (Mar 1, 2017)

Agreed with the above, at least kiesel is a large company with many builders, not much chance of them just ghosting you. 

I would also call back up and be more forceful about knowing why the delay is happening, and/or asking the kiesel employees on the kiesel forum as stated above, as it does sound like you're just getting the blow-off right now. 

Did you order any funny options or specialist woods that others did not? 

My guess is that they're probably out of some part and have been waiting for it to arrive. Maybe they're out of bridges in the color you ordered, or their stock of logos in the color you ordered got ruined.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 1, 2017)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> See if you can get a progress shot or something, maybe. I haven't ordered a Kiesel so I don't know if that's something they do or not, but it couldn't hurt to ask.



They really don't do progress shots at kiesel afaik (believe me I asked for some when I ordered my vm8). Most people I've talked to who've ordered from them said the same.


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## icipher (Mar 1, 2017)

I appreciate the input guys. 

I did not order any crazy options. I ordered a very standard, basic guitar, so I don't think we're waiting on any flash option pieces to arrive.

I'll follow up with them and see where things are at.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Mar 1, 2017)

OP is worried about a delivery being a mere two weeks behind schedule? Come on...

I commissioned a build from a well-reputed luthier back in June of last year. It's now been eight months, and I haven't received any updates aside from a small update that the body and neck are finished being cut and shaped. (I probably should mention that I am this luthier's only customer. So, I'm not sure why he is dragging his heels so much on completing the build.)



bostjan said:


> Not trying to defend the practice, but a couple weeks delay shouldn't really be anything to worry you.
> 
> Order from a small builder, and expect the project to take twice the quoted time, then plus or minus six months. For Kiesel, maybe plus or minus two months, before you should maybe ask what's going on.


^ This pretty much sums it up.


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## HUGH JAYNUS (Mar 1, 2017)

two weeks? . whenever you start to get impatient, just read through the bernie Rico thread here: http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showthread.php?t=138377

if you get closer to 6 months late, THEN i would start to worry. but you will be fine


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## Viginez (Mar 1, 2017)

haha sometimes it takes more than two weeks for production guitars to arrive


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## electriceye (Mar 1, 2017)

Boy. Don't ever order a CS Jackson. Your head will explode.


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## mnemonic (Mar 1, 2017)

You think you've got it bad, I ordered a custom Roter, and he stole my identity and murdered my whole family!


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## budda (Mar 1, 2017)

Kiesel isn't a small operation so you're fine. There's a few members on this forum who haven't been so fortunate


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## stevexc (Mar 1, 2017)

I kinda feel like nobody is actually reading the OP...

He's not complaining about a guitar being 2 weeks late.

He's complaining about a guitar being 2 and a half months later _than when all others from the same run have been delivered_.


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## SlamLiguez (Mar 1, 2017)

I wouldn't worry, I'd wait a few more weeks before taking any real action.


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## TedEH (Mar 1, 2017)

stevexc said:


> I kinda feel like nobody is actually reading the OP...



Re-read the OP. He literally says that it's 2 weeks past the estimated completion date. The 2 months is the time since the others from the same run who got theirs early, if I'm reading this right.

Either way, I don't think it's time to be frustrated yet.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 1, 2017)

stevexc said:


> I kinda feel like nobody is actually reading the OP...
> 
> He's not complaining about a guitar being 2 weeks late.
> 
> He's complaining about a guitar being 2 and a half months later _than when all others from the same run have been delivered_.



Even if that's what the post said, what would sevenstring.org do about it? The closest anyone here has to ties with Kiesel is making a thread about how awesome their specced-out meme-machine is a week before they list it in the classifieds as "You've heard about how great these are!"


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 2, 2017)

Talk to Chris Hong or Mike Jones, those are the two allstar sales persons / always solve your issues. I would not order or even talk to anyone else (and I've ordered 4 in the past few years).

And to echo everyone elses statements, two weeks is nothing. Whatever a guitar company tells you the estimated completion time is, you should double it. If its anyone other than Kiesel, add a year+ to your wait time. I have a build going on 3+ years now, its how the custom guitar world usually works unfortunately, which is what makes Kiesel so great (despite everyone loving to hate them on here). I've even ordered a Sterling(EBMM) $600 guitar from a local guitar chain (similar to Guitar Center) and it was extended 6 months from the time I was told it was coming; and thats not for a hand made USA guitar, thats a chinese cheap one-option guitar.


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## Humbuck (Mar 2, 2017)

I waited for a guitar almost 5 years and I took over a build that was already completely assembled. All I had to do was pick the finish. I was supposed to get it in a couple of months.

I didn't love the guitar either, which was a huge bummer, but because people were waiting so long to get guitars off this guy, I was able to sell it for every cent I was into it for. 5k range too. Whew.

In your situation, I would just forget about it and enjoy it when you get it.


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## demonx (Mar 2, 2017)

SnowfaLL said:


> Whatever a guitar company tells you the estimated completion time is, you should double it. If its anyone other than Kiesel, add a year+ to your wait time. I have a build going on 3+ years now, its how the custom guitar world usually works unfortunately,



What a crock of BS. As a guitar builder who works his butt off to make people happy, it really pisses me off to read generalized statements like this.

I'm not having a go at you in specific, I'm attacking the mindset that all builders are going to take a year longer or all builders are going to rip you off and all this other crap that goes on. It's generalized attitude that hurts the good guys.

I admit that I fell three months behind my schedule last year and that was only because I built a whole new workshop from the ground up, including tree removal and earth moving all the way thjrough to underground cables and building all new workbenches the works, the govt took longer processing approvals etc than I planned for and it set me back. 

I worked my butt off to catch up, I have kept all my customers in a constant loop so that at any given time they know exactly what status their guitars are at as well as providing hundreds of build pics along the way. I also worked extra long hours and worked on my days off as well as stopped taking orders for several months so that I am now well ahead of schedule and can start builds without a stupid long wait.

So knowing my own work ethic and being that I'm a full time builder who does this for a living, I take offense to generalized statements and I'm sure there are other builders just like me.

Again, I'm not having a go at you in specific, I'm having a go at the mindset and I wish people would not bundle all luthiers into the one basket. There's enough guitar builders out there to pick and choose, so I suggest buyers do some research, see what times guitar builders are putting out, see who delivers or not. Don't always go for the cheapest as you usually get what you pay for. Don't go to hobby builders who are just starting out and charging business rates either, it's a bad scenario. You'll always get better quality from someone who is 100+ guitars, in fact I personally believe anyone with less than 100 builds shouldn't even call themselves a luthier. Stick to registered businesses as that way you'll get better protection as a business is bound by laws, you should get better service from a business and you should get a better guitar. 

Anyway, not all builders are the same, so look out for and support the good ones so that they are around for the long haul.

Also, to the OP, two weeks is nothing to a huge business like you are dealing with. Shoot them an email, I'm, sure it's nothing.


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## bostjan (Mar 2, 2017)

demonx said:


> What a crock of BS. As a guitar builder who works his butt off to make people happy, it really pisses me off to read generalized statements like this.
> 
> I'm not having a go at you in specific, I'm attacking the mindset that all builders are going to take a year longer or all builders are going to rip you off and all this other crap that goes on. It's generalized attitude that hurts the good guys.



Not simply to be contrary, but I don't think anybody was saying ALL builders work that way. If you were to state that MOST builders take less than a year to complete a full custom build, I would call you out on that, since it's simply a reality that a vast majority of builders doing a full custom will take over a year. This is not directed at all toward your shop, specifically, and I am sure there are plenty of examples of quick builds, but the expectation in general is what it is.

To address the second clause of your sentence: probably most luthiers are on the up-and-up, but, at least the ones around ss.o who pop up quickly and advertise super quick turnaround and super low prices, historically, have been, well, I wouldn't say scammers, but a lot of people were separated from their money and never received a functional instrument. This doesn't seem to be too common with builders outside the flash-in-the-pan category, but I can think of two instances that totally caught me off guard. The moral of the story, though is just to be careful. I've gone with small builders for a number of projects and only got screwed once (knock wood).



demonx said:


> I admit that I fell three months behind my schedule last year and that was only because I built a whole new workshop from the ground up, including tree removal and earth moving all the way thjrough to underground cables and building all new workbenches the works, the govt took longer processing approvals etc than I planned for and it set me back.
> 
> I worked my butt off to catch up, I have kept all my customers in a constant loop so that at any given time they know exactly what status their guitars are at as well as providing hundreds of build pics along the way. I also worked extra long hours and worked on my days off as well as stopped taking orders for several months so that I am now well ahead of schedule and can start builds without a stupid long wait.



That's commendable. As I said previously, though, not all honest builders are that good at communication. A small shop can get really busy, and the builder might not have time to respond to 20 emails a day asking for before and after photos of each fret slot being cut. We have also seen, quite a few times, a small shop that emails tons of updates, but then the updates stop making sense and the whole thing falls apart. I think that suggests that there are great builders and great communicators, but there are also bad builders and liars. So, again, people need to be careful.



demonx said:


> So knowing my own work ethic and being that I'm a full time builder who does this for a living, I take offense to generalized statements and I'm sure there are other builders just like me.
> 
> Again, I'm not having a go at you in specific, I'm having a go at the mindset and I wish people would not bundle all luthiers into the one basket. There's enough guitar builders out there to pick and choose, so I suggest buyers do some research, see what times guitar builders are putting out, see who delivers or not. Don't always go for the cheapest as you usually get what you pay for. Don't go to hobby builders who are just starting out and charging business rates either, it's a bad scenario. You'll always get better quality from someone who is 100+ guitars, in fact I personally believe anyone with less than 100 builds shouldn't even call themselves a luthier. Stick to registered businesses as that way you'll get better protection as a business is bound by laws, you should get better service from a business and you should get a better guitar.
> 
> ...



Agreed 100%!

Look, I get pissed off when I see the posts that say that small builders are too risky, and I am not a builder. I support small builders; almost all of the most innovative and highest quality instruments I've played are from small builders.

But... the complaints are not unfounded. And something like building a guitar has a lot of little things that need to happen in concert, or else there will be delays. It is simply common knowledge that builders do not tend to pad their estimated build times, and that customers have selective hearing when it comes to this same issue.

For example: If customer A orders a custom guitar from a one-man shop (Shop B), and the builder says it will take him four months to complete the build once he has what he needs to get started, customer A will likely hear "four months," look at the calendar, and build an expectation. The builder may continue to explain that he currently has two other builds going on, and that he is relying on a wood supplier and whatnot, and customer A has already tuned him out. Customer A and shop B proceed to agree to terms, and, two weeks later customer A sends a deposit, three days later, the bank clears it and shop B immediately orders the timber, hardware, and electronics. Two months later, shop B begins the build, and four months after that shop B is done with the woodwork, but received the wrong bridge from his supplier, and is working on getting that straightened out. Three weeks later, shop B finally has all of the stuff needed, installs the bridge, but then customer A has changed his mind on which tuning to use, and needs some special high A string or something...soon the project is going on nine months from the initial phone call, at absolutely no fault of the builder.


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## olejason (Mar 2, 2017)

Your point about Customer A is dead on. I see so many guys start a build and then change their mind about various things along the way just because builds take a long time and it gives them time to start wanting different things. The problem is if that stuff puts a guitar behind schedule then it can put everyone else's build behind schedule too.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Mar 3, 2017)

demonx said:


> So knowing my own work ethic and being that I'm a full time builder who does this for a living, I take offense to generalized statements and I'm sure there are other builders just like me.



I really wish you wouldn't take it that way, but I suppose I can sort of see how you would.

I think a pessimistic outlook is a good thing to have as a buyer of anything, really. Especially wish something as handmade and personal as a guitar. With lower expectations, it makes the wins that much better when they do occur.
Think of it like a budget. If you realistically spend $150 a month on food, and you budget for $200, even if you know you're likely to never go that far, it's a nicer feeling on the months where you only spend $130, because you now have $70 more than you expected to. If you quote me 8 months and I expect 10, but receive it in 8, I guarantee you I would be way more excited than if I was just expecting 8. 

It's not to say that builders don't know their own turnaround or something equally ridiculous, it's just advice to account for the "sh*t happens" effect (because lord knows if it happens to anybody, it'll happen to you). Because if you quote me 8 and I expect 8, but then something goes wrong and you have to re-do something or wait for supplies and it takes 10, then I'm going to be a bit disappointed because I spent 8 months getting excited. If I had done the mental gymnastics to get it through my skull that I'm going to wait 10 months before I get a guitar from the start, then it would have felt like nothing had even gone wrong.

I dunno. That's my outlook on that whole kind of attitude / train of thought.


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## laxu (Mar 5, 2017)

I agree that two weeks is nothing, however I do wish all builders would communicate better when delays happen. Maybe they misestimated, maybe they were sick two weeks or maybe they ....ed up and had to redo a part. But telling the customer "it's just about ready" and then the same thing two weeks later is just dishonest.

I'd say OP should wait another week, if they haven't shipped then shoot them an email asking what is going on.


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## SnowfaLL (Mar 5, 2017)

demonx said:


> What a crock of BS. As a guitar builder who works his butt off to make people happy, it really pisses me off to read generalized statements like this.
> 
> I'm not having a go at you in specific, I'm attacking the mindset that all builders are going to take a year longer or all builders are going to rip you off and all this other crap that goes on. It's generalized attitude that hurts the good guys.



Sorry but not sorry. If you want to be treated above the rest of them, make a good name for yourself with delivering orders on time without massive issues, and you will get that respect. And keep it up, or you'll lose it. I think the respect needs to be earned in this business nowadays, because so many people ruined the blind faith. If you are mad, direct it to your fellow luthiers who are rolling in people's cash without supplying a product in years.

Like mentioned above, people need to have realistic expectations far past what luthiers say, because luthiers are not often truthful (and love their excuses - car broke down, cant afford paint, need a new job no time to work on the guitars, moving, shop broken into.. I've heard all those in the past) - One of my current builds, Even with a massive company that has a near 100% perfect review rate since 2015, they quoted me 7 months and its about to go past 7 months with the latest update being the guitar just entering painting.. If I was the OP, he'd be flipping a lid apparently. But since I just assumed 7 month quote means 14 months.. Its not a big deal. Its expected. Thats how the custom guitar game works to a smart consumer in 2017.

And I support the one sole builder so far who has provided good service, and I've mentioned my good experiences on him in every thread about him - Brian Bowes. No one else, so far, gets my personal recommendation as a luthier (from my own experiences). But even Brian has his issues and setbacks, but least hes upfront, honest and would provide a refund if needed, unlike the 6+ others Ive dealt with.


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## bostjan (Mar 6, 2017)

Everybody has setbacks. A company like Kiesel has a bunch of employees to spread out the impact of personal setbacks, whereas a small one-man luthier shop does not.

To the OP - have you heard anything?


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## spudmunkey (Mar 10, 2017)

In the factory walk-through video today, he was pointing out run builds that were finishing up, and said he they were just about done with the run guitars; only a few more to go...so it sounds like they aren't done yet.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 10, 2017)

"As you can see, these special-run guitars are ready to be moved over to the last stage of production, over here in this booth, where we actually take some time to go that extra mile and actually _ruin_ the guitars. And it's actually available to order on regular guitars, with an optional upcharge, in what we're calling the 'Kiesel Racing Ruin Your Guitar' treatment. And this treatment is an Option-50; so no returns or refunds once I've thrown my car keys at your guitar thirty to forty times, dropped it headstock-first onto a candle, scored the tops of nine frets under the B string, clipped all but a single strand of copper wire attached to the volume pot, mismatched the bridge and fingerboard radius, then farted into the hard case before latching it. Wait-times are currently 10-11 weeks before our sales team will respond to inquiries."


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## icipher (Mar 13, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Everybody has setbacks. A company like Kiesel has a bunch of employees to spread out the impact of personal setbacks, whereas a small one-man luthier shop does not.
> 
> To the OP - have you heard anything?



My guitar is shipping out today it sounds like, so it's officially a month late.

I asked them if they would knock off $100 or upgrade me to a hard case at no charge for the delay and they declined to honor my request despite being a 5 time kiesel/carvin buyer. I explained that I was kept in the dark about the multiple delays my guitar had.

from this experience and many other stories I have read here and elsewhere, I probably won't be ordering any more guitars from them. I've been treated SO much better by other guitar companies. Kyle over at KSR has so far been a model of good customer service, someone Jeff Kiesel could learn a lot from.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 13, 2017)

icipher said:


> My guitar is shipping out today it sounds like, so it's officially a month late.
> 
> I asked them if they would knock off $100 or upgrade me to a hard case at no charge for the delay and they declined to honor my request despite being a 5 time kiesel/carvin buyer. I explained that I was kept in the dark about the multiple delays my guitar had.
> 
> from this experience and many other stories I have read here and elsewhere, I probably won't be ordering any more guitars from them. I've been treated SO much better by other guitar companies. Kyle over at KSR has so far been a model of good customer service, someone Jeff Kiesel could learn a lot from.



On the bright side at least you'll actually have your guitar now.


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## bostjan (Mar 13, 2017)

icipher said:


> My guitar is shipping out today it sounds like, so it's officially a month late.
> 
> I asked them if they would knock off $100 or upgrade me to a hard case at no charge for the delay and they declined to honor my request despite being a 5 time kiesel/carvin buyer. I explained that I was kept in the dark about the multiple delays my guitar had.
> 
> from this experience and many other stories I have read here and elsewhere, I probably won't be ordering any more guitars from them. I've been treated SO much better by other guitar companies. Kyle over at KSR has so far been a model of good customer service, someone Jeff Kiesel could learn a lot from.



Good news!

I'd like to know what you think of the guitar when it arrives. Hopefully everything is great.


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## icipher (Mar 13, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Good news!
> 
> I'd like to know what you think of the guitar when it arrives. Hopefully everything is great.



Sure. I'll definitely post here on my thoughts. The last one came setup wrong, hopefully this one is flawless.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 13, 2017)

Now I just get a sinking feeling in my stomach every time someone posts that they have a Kiesel incoming.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 13, 2017)

Really? They gave you fancy treatment just because the guitar was a few weeks over the _ESTIMATED _date? This is in no way like the piss poor customer service of the other thread, so it's strange to see the parallel drawn. I'm surprised they did anything for you, as that's kind of asinine. Both of my Kiesel guitars were slightly delayed without them contacting me about it... Should have harassed them for money, I guess.

I do hope the guitar came out well though, and if you do have to deal further with them, I hope they maintain what I see as pretty decent customer service. (in this instance. That other thread is a .... show.)


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## icipher (Mar 13, 2017)

Señor Voorhees;4717494 said:


> Really? They gave you fancy treatment just because the guitar was a few weeks over the _ESTIMATED _date? This is in no way like the piss poor customer service of the other thread, so it's strange to see the parallel drawn. I'm surprised they did anything for you, as that's kind of asinine. Both of my Kiesel guitars were slightly delayed without them contacting me about it... Should have harassed them for money, I guess.
> 
> I do hope the guitar came out well though, and if you do have to deal further with them, I hope they maintain what I see as pretty decent customer service. (in this instance. That other thread is a .... show.)



I am not saying it's terrible customer service. In fact I'd say the experience would have been fine, regardless of the delay, had the communication been better about the re-do's they had to do at certain stages and had I not been told a few times shortly after ordering that it's likely my guitar would be done earlier than estimated.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 13, 2017)

Señor Voorhees;4717494 said:


> Really? They gave you fancy treatment just because the guitar was a few weeks over the _ESTIMATED _date?



The post I'm reading says they refused to compensate him anything for keeping him in the dark about his guitar a month past the quoted date he was supposed to receive it. To suggest that the other thread being worse excuses this one as just a case of the victim being "asinine" is awful.


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## bostjan (Mar 13, 2017)

Señor Voorhees;4717494 said:


> Really? They gave you fancy treatment just because the guitar was a few weeks over the _ESTIMATED _date? This is in no way like the piss poor customer service of the other thread, so it's strange to see the parallel drawn. I'm surprised they did anything for you, as that's kind of asinine. Both of my Kiesel guitars were slightly delayed without them contacting me about it... Should have harassed them for money, I guess.
> 
> I do hope the guitar came out well though, and if you do have to deal further with them, I hope they maintain what I see as pretty decent customer service. (in this instance. That other thread is a .... show.)



What fancy treatment? Shipping the guitar he ordered? Did I miss something? Also, where did I miss the comparison between this thread and the other Kiesel thread? Are you referring to the situation of the OP requesting a hard shell case for his trouble and the request being rejected, and the mention of "other stories?"

For the record, I'm all for asking for free stuff when things don't go as planned. It can be done respectfully. Some companies will throw in free stuff for your trouble, others won't. Little harm in asking politely.


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## laxu (Mar 17, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> The post I'm reading says they refused to compensate him anything for keeping him in the dark about his guitar a month past the quoted date he was supposed to receive it. To suggest that the other thread being worse excuses this one as just a case of the victim being "asinine" is awful.



The date given is literally an estimate. It might take less, it might take longer. One month longer is still reasonable IMO. I do agree that Kiesel should communicate better if delays happen.


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## icipher (Mar 23, 2017)

Got the guitar yesterday, exactly 5 weeks later than estimated. I am having some issues with the bridge that I've never had with another hipshot bridge, and I've owned many.

As you can see, the saddles are angled up big time and it's cutting my palm. Feels more like a tune o matic because of the lift with the saddles angled up.

I've owned multiple hipshot equipped guitars from the likes of ESP, Schecter, and PRS and other kiesels... none of which have this kind of setup.

Is this normal? I don't know if i can play on it like this, it's really uncomfortable on my palm, extremely sharp. 

Also, I didn't adjust the bridge pickup.... this is how it came out of the box, touching the strings.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 23, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> The post I'm reading says they refused to compensate him anything for keeping him in the dark about his guitar a month past the quoted date he was supposed to receive it. To suggest that the other thread being worse excuses this one as just a case of the victim being "asinine" is awful.



My mistake, they didn't, and shouldn't have given special treatment. I do stand by the fact that it's asinine to demand $100 off for a "missed" estimated date. It's an estimate for a reason. Legit, that alone was a dumb reason to get frustrated. 

What IS unforgivable, however, is shipping a guitar with a pickup touching the strings/slanted that badly. For ....ing real, who is setting these things up?


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## Eptaceros (Mar 23, 2017)

oh boy.

I dunno what's going on with that pickup, but it shouldn't be tilted from left to right. 

As far as those saddles go....apparently that's how Kiesel sets them up, according to all the recent pictures I've seen. Which is RIDICULOUS. I've got a hipshot bridge in my Ormsby and my saddles are mostly under the bridge height:


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 23, 2017)

jesus another one of these. Kiesel needs to rectify their neck angle or something. the saddles shouldn't need to be that high out of the box.


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## BouhZik (Mar 23, 2017)

If you ask kiesel, it's normal. 

If you ask SSO community (exept for some "jeffdudes"), it's messed up. 

The saddles are too high but the pick-up touch the strings anyway. I'm waiting for kiesel's apologists to come here and say nothing is wrong with it.


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## icipher (Mar 23, 2017)

I am pretty bummed out. I've waited half a year for this guitar, and now that it's here, it's just not comfortable. The saddle height is ridiculous and playing on it, it just feels wrong. I love the looks, and the quality, bridge and pickup issues aside, feels good. I want the guitar if this problem can be rectified, but if it can't, I am going to ask them to take the guitar back.


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## mnemonic (Mar 23, 2017)

Yeah, they ought to be using the thicker baseplate if they're not going to route the neck pocket deeper. Judging by the last kiesel thread with this same problem, you won't get any resolution from them, and they'll say this is normal. Maybe on some indo guitar, but on an American made guitar, not really acceptable in my opinion. 

Regarding the pickup, some foam under the pickup should make it sit flat. Worst case scenario, the holes to mount it were drilled crooked and you have to redrill one. 

If you don't mind the saddles being angled up that high, and assuming it's in playable condition, you can make them more comfortable by rounding over the edge of the lowest string saddle with a metal file. I did it to a parts strat I built that I put a hipshot on. My saddles are adjusted higher than above ormsby, but not as high as yours.


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## MetalHead40 (Mar 23, 2017)

icipher said:


> Got the guitar yesterday, exactly 5 weeks later than estimated. I am having some issues with the bridge that I've never had with another hipshot bridge, and I've owned many.
> 
> As you can see, the saddles are angled up big time and it's cutting my palm. Feels more like a tune o matic because of the lift with the saddles angled up.
> 
> ...



No, the saddles should not be at that extreme of an angle. I received an Aries recently, and it came with the saddles jacked up worse than yours and needless to say I returned it for a refund. If I were in your shoes here, and I was just last month, I'd return it for a refund no questions asked. Hopefully for your sake you didn't go with any option 50 stuff!

These guys are absolutely pitiful. They just don't seem to get it even after so many complaints regarding these bridge/saddle issues . And that pickup...are they hiring crackheads off the streets to set these guitars up


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## ElysianGuitars (Mar 23, 2017)

icipher said:


> Got the guitar yesterday, exactly 5 weeks later than estimated. I am having some issues with the bridge that I've never had with another hipshot bridge, and I've owned many.
> 
> As you can see, the saddles are angled up big time and it's cutting my palm. Feels more like a tune o matic because of the lift with the saddles angled up.
> 
> ...



My personal & professional opinion, those saddles should not be that high. The 0.175" bridge might alleviate a little bit of that, but not enough. Hipshot bridges typically shouldn't go too far above the top, otherwise it's uncomfortable to play, and can put stress on the intonation adjustment screw. Is the action low? If so, then that guitars neck angle isn't appropriate for that bridge.

If the pickup has foam under it then it's possible it was put too far towards the neck, causing it to push up unevenly.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 23, 2017)

see what's weird is the saddles on my vader are nowhere near that jacked up. They're nearly flush with the edges of the bridge. I don't know why kiesel can't do proper setups/fix the neck angle on the aries guitars.


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## BouhZik (Mar 23, 2017)

The hipshot bridge, which is certainly one of the most hyped bridge lately, praised for it's confort and magical properties that make people willing to put it on every guitar (over here you can find people ready to buy this bridge and install it on guitars that cost barely more)

At kiesel guitars, the awesome hipshot bridge became an hybrid TOM, uncomfortable and palm cutting. 

High end stuff.


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## icipher (Mar 23, 2017)

BouhZik said:


> The hipshot bridge, which is certainly one of the most hyped bridge lately, praised for it's confort and magical properties that make people willing to put it on every guitar (over here you can find people ready to buy this bridge and install it on guitars that cost barely more)
> 
> At kiesel guitars, the awesome hipshot bridge became an hybrid TOM, uncomfortable and palm cutting.
> 
> High end stuff.



Totally. The thing is, they have been great on every guitar I've had other than this one. They are comfortable, clean, and easy for setup. 

I am waiting on a call back from Kiesel when they get in later today. I will be diplomatic in trying to find resolution, but I am not optimistic as it seems like in previous instances they aren't bothered by upset customers.


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## Exit Existence (Mar 23, 2017)

I think the saddle height is a design flaw on the Aries. 
Do an image search for any Aries and you will see the saddles jacked up, it's just how it is (Not saying it SHOULD be how it is)

Some random pics from google:



















My neck-thru DC700 series does not require the saddles to be nearly that high, they are actually pretty flat...so I'm in agreeance with others saying that the Aries neck pocket is just not designed deep enough or the angle is not optimal for a hipshot.


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## Matt08642 (Mar 23, 2017)

Lmao Jesus Christ, Kiesel. I feel like they're just taking on too much work, and churning things out haphazardly, leading to issues like this. Anyone who says the saddles are fine like that is on meth.

This is how Hipshot saddles should look on a properly made guitar: http://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/431770TelerikWebUIWebResource.jpg


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## mnemonic (Mar 23, 2017)

In b4 a YouTube video or Facebook post from Jeff, saying how he personally spoke to Mr Hipshot himself, who assured him that having the saddles cranked up as high as they go is totally fine for comfort and playability.


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## BouhZik (Mar 23, 2017)

icipher said:


> Totally. The thing is, they have been great on every guitar I've had other than this one. They are comfortable, clean, and easy for setup.



Sure it's a good bridge. From my experience it's not better than other brands (the standard bridge on my godin redline had shoulders, two little screws for height and another screw behind the bridge for intonation, same as an hipshot) but almost every fixed bridge player swear by it and almost every luthier/pseudocustomshop I'm following that didnt use it in the the past now offers it stock. It must be good! 

Now you got the aries from kiesel that comes standard with the hipshot. Obviously their is something wrong with the guitar for this bridge and maybe if they used the old standard fixed bridge they have, the flaws would be less obvious.


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## mnemonic (Mar 23, 2017)

They look cool, are a name brand, and are quality, that's probably why people like them. 

Functionally, there really isn't any difference between it, and pretty much any other strat-style hardtail bridge that is made from quality materials.


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## laxu (Mar 23, 2017)

Yeah the Hipshot bridge looks better than the stamped metal looking things many fixed bridges are but functionally is no different.

Real shame to see another one of these as that definitely does not look right. Can you post a pic from the side where you can see the side of the neck? Because to me my Aries AM7 neck does not sit as high in the pocket as some of these pictures and it is fine with much thinner baseplates on the single string bridges. Pickups on it are also much lower.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 23, 2017)

I think it's just how they're built, which is dumb. I'll double check mine when I get home, but I think it also has the elevated saddles. I personally don't mind, since it has plenty of room in both directions, but it's impossible to deny that's not how it's supposed to be.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 23, 2017)

My dc7x saddles do not look like that. It must be something with the bolt-ons.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 23, 2017)

For the record, I've checked and the saddles on my Aries are in fact at an angle. My Vader's are not, they're nice and flat. For what it's worth though, if I lower the saddles much more, the screws would begin to pop out and dig into my palm, so they're not even close to maxed out. They really don't seem to be extraordinarily high. I also don't notice any discomfort from it. Worth noting that mine has piezo saddles. Not sure if they're shorter or what.


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## olejason (Mar 23, 2017)

The problem is with the Aries design itself. I don't think it is a setup issue. I've never seen an Aries that didn't have the saddles shooting straight up like that.


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## Rawkmann (Mar 23, 2017)

Likely to see a "Hipshot bridge not available on Aries models" in Kiesels guitar builder soon. Seriously tho, this is pretty damn disgraceful. Are there any other examples out there of Hipshot saddles needing to be cranked so high on another guitar or is it just the Kiesel?


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## icipher (Mar 23, 2017)

UPDATE: I've spoken with Kiesel.

They are asking for the guitar back and are going to see if they can lower the saddles. They asked that I don't let any local techs work on it, and insist that they see it themselves. 

So, back to southern California from Minnesota my guitar goes. Another week unplayed. I hope this takes care of it. 

As frustrating as this is, I'll give them this last opportunity to make it right.


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## Soya (Mar 23, 2017)

$10 says they adjust the truss rod only.


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## MetalHead40 (Mar 23, 2017)

icipher said:


> UPDATE: I've spoken with Kiesel.
> 
> They are asking for the guitar back and are going to see if they can lower the saddles. They asked that I don't let any local techs work on it, and insist that they see it themselves.
> 
> ...




Best of luck!!!


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## MetalHead40 (Mar 23, 2017)

Soya said:


> $10 says they adjust the truss rod only.



Exactly what they did to address my fuk3d up saddle height/bridge issues when I sent mine back to be looked at.


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## icipher (Mar 23, 2017)

MetalHead40 said:


> Exactly what they did to address my fuk3d up saddle height/bridge issues when I sent mine back to be looked at.



And how'd that work out after coming back to you?


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## JSanta (Mar 23, 2017)

I have to wonder if the bolt on versus the neck through is the issue. On my DC700, the saddles are almost flush. On the Aries, I haven't seen a picture yet where they were nearly as flush.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 23, 2017)

I don't think it's physically possible to lower the saddles. It really does look like a design flaw. I suggest either accepting the saddle height, or getting a refund if you don't like it. Those are the only two rational options I see. Huge bummer.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 23, 2017)

icipher said:


> And how'd that work out after coming back to you?



Put your seatbelt on, dude.


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## MetalHead40 (Mar 23, 2017)

icipher said:


> And how'd that work out after coming back to you?



Refused acceptance of it when it came back to my door and returned for refund less $35 shipping out of my pocket. 

Not getting into specifics here as I already did that in a thread I posted about the whole incident.

I hope they man up, let go of their ego, admit fault with your guitar and fix or replace it for ya. 

Best of luck!


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## mnemonic (Mar 23, 2017)

I mean, they could likely fix this issue by just using the .175" baseplate version of the hipshot bridge instead of the .125". I'm guessing they don't want to have two different thickness bridges in stock since the .125" version is used for the neck thrus which have the strings lower and closer to the body, and thus the bridge works fine.


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## spudmunkey (Mar 23, 2017)

mnemonic said:


> I mean, they could likely fix this issue by just using the .175" baseplate version of the hipshot bridge instead of the .125". I'm guessing they don't want to have two different thickness bridges in stock since the .125" version is used for the neck thrus which have the strings lower and closer to the body, and thus the bridge works fine.



Actually, I don't think the .175" would fix the problem. that difference is only .05" or 1.27mm. I feel like that would be barely noticeable. I almost feel like it would need to be .125" aka 1/8" aka 3.75mm thicker!


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 23, 2017)

spudmunkey said:


> Actually, I don't think the .175" would fix the problem. that difference is only .05" or 1.27mm. I feel like that would be barely noticeable. I almost feel like it would need to be .125" aka 1/8" aka 3.75mm thicker!



This... Because those saddles are definitely more than 1.27mm over the edge of the bridge plate. Like I said, the only real options appear to be to love it or hate it as is. The saddles really aren't a problem where they are unless you find them uncomfortable, as the corners might irritate some people.

There doesn't appear to be much in the way of a mechanical fix for this. The neck could either need to be thinner (no thanks), or the pocket to be routed deeper. Considering how little meat there already is at the heel, I wouldn't count on that either.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 24, 2017)

The worst thing you can possibly say about a guitar design is when the only suggestion you keep coming back to is to just make it again, but better.


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## laxu (Mar 25, 2017)

Señor Voorhees;4721796 said:


> This... Because those saddles are definitely more than 1.27mm over the edge of the bridge plate. Like I said, the only real options appear to be to love it or hate it as is. The saddles really aren't a problem where they are unless you find them uncomfortable, as the corners might irritate some people.
> 
> There doesn't appear to be much in the way of a mechanical fix for this. The neck could either need to be thinner (no thanks), or the pocket to be routed deeper. Considering how little meat there already is at the heel, I wouldn't count on that either.



The reason why I asked for pics of the neck is because my AM7 looks like the neck sits lower in the pocket. Not because the pocket is deeper but because the neck is thinner where it connects to the body. It's the standard thickness neck. The single saddle bridges on mine have a thinner base plate than the Hipshot but are not at an extreme angle.

Maybe Kiesel has started making their necks slightly thicker at the heel and that causes these issues or they are making them thinner on the multiscale models?

Seems like the obvious fix would be to take some wood off the bottom of the heel as well as use the thicker baseplate Hipshot bridge.


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## spudmunkey (Mar 26, 2017)

For what it's worth, while my saddles are high, I did measure them and they are technically still lower than the maximum height listed on Hipshot's website (.425" vs .475") for the max height. So technically it's still "within spec"...just not ideal. But I imagine if I had something like the 10" radius, it gives them room to drop the outside saddles without bottoming out...but it still feels a bit too high even considering. I also would rather have the saddles high than have the screws sticking up...on the other hand, I'm reasonably handy and would probably source shorter screws for any saddles low enough for the screws to protrude...

Page with the height specs in case anyone was curious: https://www.hipshotproducts.com/files/all/41060-2d.pdf


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## cwhitey2 (Mar 26, 2017)

Jesus, not again....

I don't think they understand how a hip shot bridge works.

If you have to have a 45° angle on he saddles to make it playable the guitar was built wrong. I would send back telling them to keep it. 


If I ever decide to actually give them my money on a new guitar I with deff not order a hip shot or trem... Since they don't understand either.... And still don't admit fault.


Sorry to hear you are sending back OP, hopefully they can resolve this.


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## MikeNeal (Mar 26, 2017)

if you really love the look and want to keep the guitar, have a good luthier route the neck pocket and pickup cavities deeper. that way the neck and pickups will sit properly in the body correcting the saddle issue, should be a relatively cheap and easy fix.

i dont know why kiesel doesnt just adjust their programming for their cnc to fix the issue?


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## btbg (Mar 26, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> i dont know why kiesel doesnt just adjust their programming for their cnc to fix the issue?



Because that would be admitting a mistake.


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## kherman (Mar 26, 2017)

Maybe contact Hipshot and see if they make any kind of shim for the bridge.
Otherwise, maybe a local machinist could make one.


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## Drew (Mar 26, 2017)

icipher said:


> UPDATE: I've spoken with Kiesel.
> 
> They are asking for the guitar back and are going to see if they can lower the saddles. They asked that I don't let any local techs work on it, and insist that they see it themselves.
> 
> ...



Only concern I'd have here is if they don't fix it to your satisfaction, are they going to tell you that you're now outside the return window and you can't return the guitar for a full refund? As long as they're clear on that, and you'll still have the opportunity to review and possibly return the guitar after they send it back to you, that seems reasonable. 

But, either the neck heel is too thick, or the neck pocket isn't deep enough. That's clearly not right.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 26, 2017)

The neck pocket isn't deep enough. The heel needs a redesign since it's already damn small. You can't make it much thinner without making it too weak I think. So they need to add some to the back while taking some off the front.


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## TedEH (Mar 27, 2017)

I keep reading that there's a version of that bridge with a thicker base-plate, seems like the correct fix would be to replace the bridge with that. I think if I were in Kiesel's shoes I'd just be offering that replacement for anyone who's bothered by the saddle heights. Unless I'm thinking of a different issue, there's so many Kiesel threads to keep track of now .


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## bostjan (Mar 27, 2017)

I'd rather get a guitar I can play, a couple of months late, than an unplayable guitar on schedule.


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## canuck brian (Mar 27, 2017)

Exit Existence said:


> I think the saddle height is a design flaw on the Aries.
> Do an image search for any Aries and you will see the saddles jacked up, it's just how it is (Not saying it SHOULD be how it is)
> 
> Some random pics from google:
> ...



I actually went back to prototyping my new model after i had a similar outcome on saddle height - everything's fixed now and it took half a day.

The .175 bridge is going to help a little bit, but not much. The baseplate on the one in the pic is already .125.


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## feraledge (Mar 27, 2017)

I can see correct neck joint depths might soon be on the Opt 50 menu.


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## mnemonic (Mar 28, 2017)

Option 50: Playable guitar


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## davedeath (Mar 28, 2017)

Op 50: getting the guitar left handed...


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## bostjan (Mar 28, 2017)

Did you forget to check the box on the form for a functional instrument?


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## mnemonic (Mar 28, 2017)

Sorry bro but you didn't specify 'playable'


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## feraledge (Mar 28, 2017)

Sorry bro, 10-day return was an Option 50.


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## BouhZik (Mar 29, 2017)

TedEH said:


> I keep reading that there's a version of that bridge with a thicker base-plate, seems like the correct fix would be to replace the bridge with that. I think if I were in Kiesel's shoes I'd just be offering that replacement for anyone who's bothered by the saddle heights. Unless I'm thinking of a different issue, there's so many Kiesel threads to keep track of now .



Like said before, 
They use the .125 base plate. The thicker one is .175 base plate. Looking at those pics you dont fix the problem with that difference.


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## icipher (Mar 30, 2017)

UPDATE:

Got the guitar shipped to Kiesel on Tuesday. They expedited the shipping, which was nice of them. 

Got a response back today: "Guitar is finished and ready to ship out. We were able to lower the neck into the pocket by removing .070" off the neck pad. This lowers the neck and saddle almost 1/10" of an inch and fixes the issue you are having. Attached is a shot so you can see it."

I asked if this would compromise the strength of the neck and they said "absolutely not"






What do you guys think? I like the guitar and i think it is otherwise quality made. I THINK this looks reasonable, but it's hard to tell unless I play it.


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## ElysianGuitars (Mar 30, 2017)

icipher said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Got the guitar shipped to Kiesel on Tuesday. They expedited the shipping, which was nice of them.
> 
> ...


Compared to where it came from:






That's a huge improvement, and roughly where it should be. The pickup is level now as well.


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## bostjan (Mar 30, 2017)

Personally, I wouldn't accept that at all. The angle of the saddles is still shooting way up. Look at the top of the saddle versus the shoulder of the bridge plate. There is also a bunch of strain on the low E string at the pinch point - see how the wraps are separating from the core?! Also, the pickup is still angled back. Compare the shadow of the string at the two ends of the BPU versus the string itself.

EDIT: No offense to Elyssian, he knows his stuff, but I don't see how there's really that much improvement going from one photo to the next, aside from the swiveled positioning of the camera to downplay the issue.


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## laxu (Mar 30, 2017)

I think it looks much better now. I would probably ask if they can use the thicker baseplate version on it to further take them down. My only concern, provided this is an average action rather than a very low one, is if the saddles have any sharp edges on them that might cause discomfort.

I tried looking at pictures with this bridge and most seem to have the saddles slightly above the edges of the plate so I don't know what is the standard for this.

Pickups can sometimes tilt a bit on the posts but I would ask them to take a look at that too.


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## feraledge (Mar 30, 2017)

So they are aware this is a problem. But for all their smack talk about customer taking tricky photo angles, this is how they respond? Tell them you want a pic from the same angle you took it at. If you like it and they fix it take it, but if it's a partial fix, then it's not fixed.


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## Señor Voorhees (Mar 30, 2017)

Is it comfortable? Does it sound good? If it is and does, yes keep it.

Edit:derp... You don't have it back yet. It looks fine to me, buy I also would have been fine with it before where the saddles were. It does look much better, and the pickup was fixed. It's up to you, but I honestly don't see anything wrong with it as it is now.

Edit edit: also lol at what feral said. He's not wrong. They pissed and moaned about angles, then took a photo at the same ....ty angle. It would be nice to get that one pic of a 90° side shot to see just how low it is.


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## icipher (Mar 30, 2017)

feraledge said:


> So they are aware this is a problem. But for all their smack talk about customer taking tricky photo angles, this is how they respond? Tell them you want a pic from the same angle you took it at. If you like it and they fix it take it, but if it's a partial fix, then it's not fixed.



Yep, 

I asked for a better picture taken more horizontally. No response yet.


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## nistley (Mar 30, 2017)

It looks much better though even if it's a bit high, but it's better, since they are capable of lowering it, perhaps they can lower a bit more.


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## Viginez (Mar 30, 2017)

it does look improved compared to the first pic
try it, if you like it, keep it


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## BigViolin (Mar 30, 2017)

I think they actually did the right fix by lowering the floor of the neck pocket. And the pickup looks straight to me. 

I just compared a couple of my hipshot equipped guitars and there is slightly less break angle on the kiesel and I've been meaning to lower mine. Warmoth call this the .72O mod.

Appears good to me, hope it works out for you.


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## icipher (Mar 30, 2017)

Well. Just got off the phone with Ricardo, who is, ironically, Kiesel's customer service manager. I've spoken to him multiple times during the different ordeals I've had with this custom order(being late, shipping to wrong address at first, saddle and pickup issue) and I've always sensed a dislike for me. A thinly-veiled annoyance with me that he keeps in check right before he starts getting really irritated with me.

Conversation got pretty heated and ended with him hanging up on me. Note that I did not yell at him, curse at him or anything of that nature.

Here's a very accurate transcript of our conversation today.

Ricardo: Ok, Chris, your guitar is ready to ship out. We can't put a bigger base plate on, so you'll need to try it out first.
Me: Ok, well I've been waiting on that side view picture of the bridge saddles I requested earlier today. 
Ricardo: well, the guitar is boxed up now, so we can't do that.
Me: Ok, but you guys will still honor Jeff's word that you will refund me if I am not happy?
Ricardo: Well, no, we won't do that.
Me: What? I have Jeff saying in writing(email): _"I am willing to do the work on your guitar and send you pics before sending it back, if you are not happy with how it looks or get it and are still not happy I will refund you."_
Ricardo: Well, no actually, we couldn't do that because you were part of the Aries run group and we told that group they could not return.
Me: That doesn't matter, Jeff Kiesel, of all people, told me this week via email that he would refund me if not satisfied.
Ricardo: Well, he didn't know you were part of that group, so I am sorry but we can't.
Me: That's terrible customer service, how can you walk back on that? He should have done his due diligence before committing to me.
Ricardo(very annoyed at this point and fought with me for 5 minutes over it): I need to talk to Jeff and will call you back.

Calls me back 5 minutes later

Ricardo: Man chris, i really want to get you this guitar but I don't know man, maybe you just didn't want it all along.....
Me: No, I want the guitar, I love how it looks and I think the rest of the guitar is quality, but I want you guys to honor your promise to me that you'd take the guitar back if it doesn't work for me. 
Ricardo: OK, we can either send you the guitar right now, or refund you right now, but if we send it to you, you can't return it even if you aren't happy with our adjustments.
Me: But that does not align with what jeff said in the email WHICH YOU WERE COPIED ON! If i can't get a guarantee that I can return it, i will not accept it and please just refund me.
Ricardo(fuming at this point): Ok, I'll refund you, BUT YOU WILL BE BANNED FROM EVER BUYING ANOTHER KIESEL GUITAR AGAIN.
Me: How the heck is that fair? I am a 4 time kiesel owner and have never complained about anything up until this point.
Ricardo: doesn't matter
Me: Ok, fine. I have been consulting with the folks over on Sevenstring.org for their advice and opinions on the matter, and this end to our story will be posted there. Just want you to know.
Ricardo: OK, GO HAVE FUN ON SSO.ORG!!!!! *CLICK*

What a disappointing end to that chapter. If they would have just honored their word and let me try it out first, I would have happily kept it assuming it played well. I guess making good on their written commitment was too much to ask. 

They are going to refund me. I will post back on any other BS that arises.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 30, 2017)

Welp this officially seals the deal, never ordering from kiesel again. I love my vaders but to hear multiple qc and cs complaints like this is super disheartening. Also the whole banning bs is just like what happened with johnathan....


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## MikeNeal (Mar 30, 2017)

jeez man, what a bunch of tools


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## Eptaceros (Mar 30, 2017)

Sh!t like this really needs to be shared more. Honestly, I have a lot of musician friends on facebook that own Kiesels and share promos etc, so it makes me think that the vast majority of people have no idea what kind of sh!tshow is really brewing over at Kiesel (particularly their customer service dept).


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## Lemons (Mar 30, 2017)

You should really leave a review on their facebook page, it's one of the first places people go for info on the brand and Kiesel themselves have no power to remove a negative review.


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 31, 2017)

I lol'd I cried.
still kind of want a used vader...


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## feraledge (Mar 31, 2017)

That is simply insane. Even one more photo could have settled it all. I know cutting open a box, taking a pic and then boxing it up again is a solid 10 minutes of work, probably less than the phone calls and discussion combined, but what tools!!
Can we get "HAVE FUN ON SSO.ORG" - Kiesel Guitars as a universal forum sig?


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## laxu (Mar 31, 2017)

After reading that I have a hard time recommending Kiesel anymore or buying from them myself. That is just .... customer service. They make the damn rules and can make exceptions to them. What OP was asking for wasn't unreasonable. Throwing temper tantrums and banning the customer from ordering again over something so trivial is bull.....

It's a real shame they keep digging themselves into a hole over what should be simple repairs that could have been avoided with better QC in the first place.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 31, 2017)

Has anyone else noticed that these "bannings" always follow a confrontation over Kiesel totally botching a straightforward QC/CS issue? It's the equivalent of a girlfriend going "You CAN'T break up with me; because I'M breaking up with YOU." 

Like, they always wait until the point at which the customer would most-benefit from never having to do business with them again before they inform them in that disciplinarian tone that their punishment is to never have to do business with them again.

I'm not the first guy to accuse Jeff and his droogs of beveling the truth.


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## auntyethel (Mar 31, 2017)

Reading this and the other recent thread... it's almost like a satire of bad customer service. I could imagine a satirical comedy show based entirely on the self-righteousness of these guys.


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## prlgmnr (Mar 31, 2017)

.... me, they're actually going to have no customers left at this rate.


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## marcwormjim (Mar 31, 2017)

Individuals from the target-market finding these unethical actions unethical is sounding just a little too much like bandwagon-hate, folks.

Paging a certain, recently-unsuspended poster to defend these actions while asserting that any guitar priced above his used Prestige is not "high-end" (Why? 'Cuz the truth hurts, bro); and that anyone who's ever paid more than this undivulged amount for _any_ guitar is a "moron" and "clearly obsessed" for replying with puzzlement or laughter.

Is there no one willing to appoint themselves the voice of reason in this mass-misunderstanding?


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## mnemonic (Mar 31, 2017)

marcwormjim said:


> beveling the truth.


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## watson503 (Mar 31, 2017)

This crew at Keisel are completely clueless on so many levels, I can imagine the talk that goes on behind the scenes there - 

Retardo: "...and then I told him "HAVE FUN ON SSO.ORG, BRO!!!" and hung-up on him...lol"

Jeff Keisel: "Hell yeah! You told him...great job, bro!"


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## icipher (Mar 31, 2017)

Yeah..... The more I think about it, the more ridiculous it really is. It's amazing how petty he was on the phone, more interested in spouting policy at me instead of taking responsibility for their actions and promises. Completely pathetic if you ask me.

Not to be braggadocios, but I have plenty of discretionary income and will happily purchase guitars from other builders. They could have easily worked this out with me and probably kept me as a future customer, but they really made no effort in the final hour and instead decided to play hardball. Their loss at the end of the day.


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## olejason (Mar 31, 2017)

What a bunch of complete idiots. Thanks to OP for saving me money and headaches by bringing all of this to our attention. Considering a Strandberg now instead of Kiesel stuff


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## diagrammatiks (Mar 31, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Welp this officially seals the deal, never ordering from kiesel again. I love my vaders but to hear multiple qc and cs complaints like this is super disheartening. Also the whole banning bs is just like what happened with johnathan....



They banned johnathan after he paid for a k series?


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## bostjan (Mar 31, 2017)

I measured the angles in the before and after photos, and it does, in fact, appear that they lowered the saddles from about a 10° angle to about a 7-8° angle. I feel bad now for suspecting that they might have just lowered the saddles a tiny bit, straightened the pickup a little, and shot another photo.

If you go in MS paint, though, and trace the outlines of the string shadow on the pickup, and the outlines of the saddle and shoulder of the bridge, you will see what I'm talking about, that it isn't really a night-and-day difference. If I were calling the shots at a company like this, I would have made darn certain that the guitar would be returned to the customer not just a little better, but in ship-shape, paying especially close attention to whatever the complaint was. This picture is clear evidence, to me, that they didn't take that opportunity. Maybe it's unfair of me to imagine that they flippantly sanded the heel of the neck down with a sander, re-positioned the pickup and called it a job well done.

So we'll never likely know what the customer would have ended up receiving, since they told you that they would make no further guarantee of their own workmanship. To me, that speaks volumes about the company. "Satisfaction or your money back!" "I like it, but something's wrong with it..." "Let's fix it! Fixed, here you go! By the way, if you don't like it now, we're keeping your money." WTF?! I guess it's customer service like that which gives me the above impression of half-assedness.


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## nistley (Mar 31, 2017)

Wow, this is just terrible. This needs to be copied to as many places as possible, facebook, yelp?, google reviews, and I would even contact BBB. Not just because the service incompetence, but because of the level of disrespect and verbal abuse.


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## KnightBrolaire (Mar 31, 2017)

diagrammatiks said:


> They banned johnathan after he paid for a k series?



he bought multiple k series from them, and the last one had some issues that he wanted corrected, jeff got pissy and banned him basically. it's actually lodged in this thread somewhere, or you could read about it on johnathan's thread he started back when it happened.


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## MetalHead40 (Mar 31, 2017)

Wish it would have worked out differently for you man. This experience pretty much mirrors the one I had and proves what a bunch of morons these guys are. If they didn't learn something from the numerous QC and customer service screw ups that have piled up before yours, they truly are just a group of self righteous, egoistical, unintelligent jackasses. 

I know some will have a hard time believing because it just seems too unbelievable that a company would act this way, but I fully believe every word of what you posted because they treated me the same way. I just don't understand for the life of me what is so difficult in telling an unhappy customer that your sorry they're unhappy with the guitar and that you'll do what it takes to make it right, and then actually doing what it takes to make it right. It would be so simple for them to have corrected your issues, the issues I had, and the many other issues of numerous other customers and never have subjected themselves to this cesspool of negativity their now swimming in. 

Just like you, I loved everything about the guitar they built me less the bridge/saddle problems, and I truly wanted to keep it. They told me this and told me that when I sent it in to be looked at, all just lies just to try and pacify me. In the end they lied, treated me as if I was an idiot, and more or less said take the guitar back and like it, or we can refund you. Thankful I even got refunded.

"Ricardo: OK, GO HAVE FUN ON SSO.ORG!!!!! *CLICK*" 
^^^
Sums up their attitude, inability to learn from previous mistakes, and intelligence level IMO.


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## icipher (Mar 31, 2017)

MetalHead40 said:


> Wish it would have worked out differently for you man. This experience pretty much mirrors the one I had and proves what a bunch of morons these guys are. If they didn't learn something from the numerous QC and customer service screw ups that have piled up before yours, they truly are just a group of self righteous, egoistical, unintelligent jackasses.
> 
> I know some will have a hard time believing because it just seems too unbelievable that a company would act this way, but I fully believe every word of what you posted because they treated me the same way. I just don't understand for the life of me what is so difficult in telling an unhappy customer that your sorry they're unhappy with the guitar and that you'll do what it takes to make it right, and then actually doing what it takes to make it right. It would be so simple for them to have corrected your issues, the issues I had, and the many other issues of numerous other customers and never have subjected themselves to this cesspool of negativity their now swimming in.
> 
> ...



That's unfortunate that your story is so similar.

To give credit where credit is due, Chris Hong, my sales rep, has been pretty decent. I don't doubt there are good people who work at kiesel, and if you get a guitar from them that is done right and not in need of work or corrections, you're good. It's too risky for me to want to roll the dice with them again. Though I suppose that isn't an option anymore since they "banned" me. 

Not sure what good it will do, but I will probably call the BBB and share my experience with them. I have digital trails of my conversations with Kiesel to back up most of my experience.


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## wannabguitarist (Mar 31, 2017)

icipher said:


> That's unfortunate that your story is so similar.
> 
> To give credit where credit is due, Chris Hong, my sales rep, has been pretty decent. I don't doubt there are good people who work at kiesel, and if you get a guitar from them that is done right and not in need of work or corrections, you're good. It's too risky for me to want to roll the dice with them again. Though I suppose that isn't an option anymore since they "banned" me.
> 
> Not sure what good it will do, but I will probably call the BBB and share my experience with them. I have digital trails of my conversations with Kiesel to back up most of my experience.



Please do this. People need to know about sh*t customer service outside of this forum. Post over at Carvin BBS and a review on their Facebook page as well. From my understanding you can't delete business reviews on Facebook. Screenshot emails of conversation and link them in the add.


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## pahulkster (Mar 31, 2017)

Lol at banning customers. Like it is some great privilege to give them your money. So glad I never ordered one because I would be taking a hit selling it after this.


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## lewis (Apr 1, 2017)

god and to think at one point I was interested in a Vader build.
I have these douche's on FB. I might remove them when Im next on there. I cannot stand this level of customer service (or lack of)


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## Mr_Mar10 (Apr 1, 2017)

"The customer is always right" ???? Clearly not 

: teeth smiley :

Shame, lush guitar.... I'll give em £100 for the body n neck lol


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## laxu (Apr 1, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Maybe it's unfair of me to imagine that they flippantly sanded the heel of the neck down with a sander, re-positioned the pickup and called it a job well done.



Isn't that pretty much what they should do to fix it? The neck pocket can't be shaved down much but the heel looked liked it had some extra beef to it. Other than that the only thing they probably could do is use the thicker baseplate on the bridge.

In any case it seems like Kiesel needs to recalibrate their CNC to cut thinner neck heels and make sure they use the thicker baseplate Hipshot if they want to avoid this issue in the future.

It's really amazing how they can have so many clueless customer service reps. I kept recommending Kiesel because despite having minor cosmetic issues with my build, the guitar was really well made overall, matching the price point fine and Chris Hong treated me well in every email conversation I had with him, even when I had issues. It's a shame that the good people working for Kiesel have to suffer because of some customer rep and company owner's egos.


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## JSanta (Apr 1, 2017)

laxu said:


> Isn't that pretty much what they should do to fix it? The neck pocket can't be shaved down much but the heel looked liked it had some extra beef to it. Other than that the only thing they probably could do is use the thicker baseplate on the bridge.
> 
> In any case it seems like Kiesel needs to recalibrate their CNC to cut thinner neck heels and make sure they use the thicker baseplate Hipshot if they want to avoid this issue in the future.
> 
> It's really amazing how they can have so many clueless customer service reps. I kept recommending Kiesel because despite having minor cosmetic issues with my build, the guitar was really well made overall, matching the price point fine and Chris Hong treated me well in every email conversation I had with him, even when I had issues. It's a shame that the good people working for Kiesel have to suffer because of some customer rep and company owner's egos.



This is where I am at as well. My DC700 was built right at the transition when it was going to Kiesel, and I actually thought it would be great to have Kiesel on the headstock. The guitar came out pretty close to perfect, but after all of the stuff that has happened to people here since then, I'll never buy another one (I've got two).


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## littleredguitars2 (Apr 1, 2017)

so glad i never took the kiesel plunge. over the past 10 years i've had friends who LOVED their carvins and still do. so much so that i considered it. and i really liked the SCB guitars. i thought most of them looked pretty sharp. basically a fancy tele shape. i can dig that. then the vaders came out and i was already looking at strandbergs at that point. i considered going the cheaper trendier route with kiesel but i went the other way and LET ME TELL YOU. strandbergs customer service has been impeccable every time i've been in contact with them. every one of those guys treats you like a friend every time. the lack of customer service kiesel displays is just appalling. if he keeps this up, he's gonna be losing ground fast.


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## Señor Voorhees (Apr 1, 2017)

Meh... .... this company. I feel bad for Chris, since he's been nothing but the best, but I don't want to put my money in the pockets of these clowns. 

Not really an empty threat either since I have bought, and still own Kiesel's. Planned to buy more, but not if this is how their customer service reps act. Not gonna risk my next guitar having a small issue they refuse to make right.


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## bostjan (Apr 1, 2017)

laxu said:


> Isn't that pretty much what they should do to fix it? The neck pocket can't be shaved down much but the heel looked liked it had some extra beef to it. Other than that the only thing they probably could do is use the thicker baseplate on the bridge.
> 
> In any case it seems like Kiesel needs to recalibrate their CNC to cut thinner neck heels and make sure they use the thicker baseplate Hipshot if they want to avoid this issue in the future.
> 
> It's really amazing how they can have so many clueless customer service reps. I kept recommending Kiesel because despite having minor cosmetic issues with my build, the guitar was really well made overall, matching the price point fine and Chris Hong treated me well in every email conversation I had with him, even when I had issues. It's a shame that the good people working for Kiesel have to suffer because of some customer rep and company owner's egos.



I don't think so. If the instrument is delivered unplayable because of an identified issue, for whatever reason, it should either be 100% corrected or else scrap the instrument.

For example, if I bought a brand new car, and then right after picking up the car, found a fuel line leak, and returned it, and they fixed 50% of the leak, would I be happy?

Hell no.

So why would it be cool in this case?

And if installing a bridge with a thicker baseplate is the only solution, why is not fixing the guitar and still having the customer pay for it an option on the negotiating table? They should just replace the damned base plate.


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## laxu (Apr 2, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I don't think so. If the instrument is delivered unplayable because of an identified issue, for whatever reason, it should either be 100% corrected or else scrap the instrument.
> 
> For example, if I bought a brand new car, and then right after picking up the car, found a fuel line leak, and returned it, and they fixed 50% of the leak, would I be happy?
> 
> ...



I was just stating the things they could do to fix the issue: Either make the neck sit lower or raise the whole bridge so its saddles can be set lower, preferably both. There are limits to what they can do for lowering the neck and that's why the thicker baseplate might be the final piece of the puzzle. I don't see a reason to scrap the whole instrument when this is to me a fixable issue. Unfortunately Kiesel handled it very poorly.


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## bostjan (Apr 2, 2017)

laxu said:


> I was just stating the things they could do to fix the issue: Either make the neck sit lower or raise the whole bridge so its saddles can be set lower, preferably both. There are limits to what they can do for lowering the neck and that's why the thicker baseplate might be the final piece of the puzzle. I don't see a reason to scrap the whole instrument when this is to me a fixable issue. Unfortunately Kiesel handled it very poorly.



I think we're pretty much saying the same thing. If one approach to fixing it didn't complete the task, try another, until everything is correct, and, if the best effort cannot correct it, then start over or offer a refund and an apology.

I will say that refunding the customer was a step in the right direction, but all of the threats of banning him from purchasing another instrument goes two steps back.

I think Kiesel may well continue this dance for years. For whatever reason, there are more than a handful of guitarists I know outside of the forum, who would buy a Kiesel even if Jeff ate a live baby on his live feed.


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## High Plains Drifter (Apr 2, 2017)

Carvin DC700 & Kiesel Ultra-V7 owner here ( pre-split). Both are fantastic instruments in every respect btw. 

This is the worst kind of publicity for a company. In regards to manufacturing defects, those issues can be ( could have been) rectified. It's been speculated that they are turning out at least 10 guitars a day. If going by business days, then that's roughly 2,600 guitars per year that they're producing. Looking at QC complaints ( FB plus SSO combined), I still would say that the overall number of issues seems fairly low... again, in comparison to how many they are possibly producing. That in and of itself wouldn't be enough for me to personally steer clear. 

But when word begins to spread... that Kiesel has even a handful of complaints from customers that are unable to return or exchange guitars, then that becomes a game-changer for many potential customers. That paints a fairly ugly image... only made worse when that company is looked at as not being trustworthy. Whether or not Kiesel is a company that someone can trust, is obviously debatable but simply having that reputation can really wreak havoc when left unaddressed. 

People like SSO's Jeffbro are absolutely not doing Kiesel any favors at this point. Whether a representative, or Jeff himself... this person is only strengthening people's perceptions that Kiesel is a company that cannot be trusted and that does not exhibit integrity. If Jeffbro is simply a customer... well that may be. I'm not trying to call anyone out as I honestly have no clue who anyone is on here, but anonymity aside, even as a customer... he's not helping anything.

For me... I'm willing to roll the dice on many things... potential manufacturing issues, potentially poor customer service, and even prior negative reviews. But when I honestly feel that I might be handing my money over to a company or an individual that may quite possibly just tell me to go pound sand... THAT is the point that I must make the decision to take my business elsewhere. It's simply not worth the risk.

Jeff has the ability to rectify some of the negative perception. He's young enough and I'm sure competent enough to make some changes and I genuinely feel that he needs to if he's going to keep from completely running the Kiesel name into the ground. I simply wish for him, for his staff, and for the longevity of success... that he realize that no one is exempt from failing from grace.


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## bostjan (Apr 2, 2017)

According to Wikipedia, Kiesel builds almost 4000 instruments per year. They cite Guitar Player magazine, but I don't see any mention of output in the article at all.


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## spudmunkey (Apr 2, 2017)

icipher said:


> UPDATE:
> 
> Got the guitar shipped to Kiesel on Tuesday. They expedited the shipping, which was nice of them.
> 
> ...






Only you can decide if you like the feel. What I will mention again ( I don't remember which thread I mentioned it in before), but even at it's high point, it still may very well be within the range recommended by the manufacturer per Hipshot's own published dimensions:
https://www.hipshotproducts.com/files/all/41060-2d.pdf

They say the max is .47". Mine's .45" or so, so it's still technically within spec. Ideal? No. "Wrong"? also no. It's up to you to decide where that line of "acceptable" is.


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## spudmunkey (Apr 2, 2017)

bostjan said:


> According to Wikipedia, Kiesel builds almost 4000 instruments per year. They cite Guitar Player magazine, but I don't see any mention of output in the article at all.



That figure also comes from their own mouths. They have mentioned both the 4,000+ number as well as averaging 15-20 guitars per day. If you take 365 days, subtract 104 weekend days, then subtract about 30 days for holidays, etc and multiply those total days by 15 you get about 3,450 guitars. Multiply it by 20 and you get 4,600-ish.


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## Bearilla (Apr 3, 2017)

bostjan said:


> I think Kiesel may well continue this dance for years. For whatever reason, there are more than a handful of guitarists I know outside of the forum, who would buy a Kiesel even *if Jeff ate a live baby on his live feed.*



I think this would convince me to buy a Kiesel......


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## canuck brian (Apr 4, 2017)

Removing 1/10th of an inch is really not an insignificant thing. That's a serious flaw.


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## bostjan (Apr 4, 2017)

canuck brian said:


> Removing 1/10th of an inch is really not an insignificant thing. That's a serious flaw.



Well, removing nearly 1/10th of an inch and still having the saddles nearly max'd out? I'd say that there are more than a few ways that's not acceptable.


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## ElysianGuitars (Apr 4, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Well, removing nearly 1/10th of an inch and still having the saddles nearly max'd out? I'd say that there are more than a few ways that's not acceptable.



I set up a guitar this weekend, the saddles look to be roughly where they are on the fixed Kiesel. On mine they're only at 11/32" on the middle two strings. I think the fixed guitar is just fine. Unfortunately the response from Kiesel was not.


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## icipher (Apr 5, 2017)

ElysianGuitars said:


> I set up a guitar this weekend, the saddles look to be roughly where they are on the fixed Kiesel. On mine they're only at 11/32" on the middle two strings. I think the fixed guitar is just fine. Unfortunately the response from Kiesel was not.



YUP! I would have happily taken the guitar if Ricardo and Jeff stuck to their promise to me! We were 90% of the way there, which required a LOT of patience on my end and multiple screw ups on their end. A shame this had to end on such a bad note(no pun intended) and clearly they don't mind burning bridges with lucrative and loyal customers.


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## Señor Voorhees (Apr 5, 2017)

bostjan said:


> Well, removing nearly 1/10th of an inch and still having the saddles nearly max'd out? I'd say that there are more than a few ways that's not acceptable.



Only they're not nearly maxed out. My aries, as I've mentioned already, has similarly "high" saddles and they're not remotely close to being maxed out. I'll see about snagging some pictures later today. 

Kiesel's attitude, .... service, and bridge burnings are the biggest problem right just now.


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## Semi-pro (Apr 5, 2017)

I couldn't resist the urge to do some math: Let's assume Kiesel makes 4000 guitar per year, and their delivery precision was above 97% (considered "excellent quality" in many industries). The margin for error would then be 120 deliveries. Keep in mind that this includes even the tiniest mess ups.

Now, more important is of course how they would handle those 120 cases. Let's see how an "excellent customer service team" would do with that amount: 97% * 120 = 116,4. This would leave room for ~3 unhappy customers.

Obviously I'm not saying how much this and that is acceptable, I just did that for fun. But it seems that they're well past that 3 already...


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## bostjan (Apr 5, 2017)

Semi-pro said:


> I couldn't resist the urge to do some math: Let's assume Kiesel makes 4000 guitar per year, and their delivery precision was above 97% (considered "excellent quality" in many industries). The margin for error would then be 120 deliveries. Keep in mind that this includes even the tiniest mess ups.
> 
> Now, more important is of course how they would handle those 120 cases. Let's see how an "excellent customer service team" would do with that amount: 97% * 120 = 116,4. This would leave room for ~3 unhappy customers.
> 
> Obviously I'm not saying how much this and that is acceptable, I just did that for fun. But it seems that they're well past that 3 already...



Interesting.  Do you mind if I run this backwards?

3 horror stories on this forum, so far, this year. The year is ~25% done. Say the forum represents ~25% of Kiesel customers, somehow (rough guess that I consider liberal). We're on track to assuming 3x4x4 = 48 total customer losses this year. 48/4000 = 1.2% customer service complaints based off of quality control complaints. If we assume even distribution, that should be the square of the total QC complaints (very roughly), so Kiesel is on track for 11% QC complaints, or 89% delivery performance.


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## Walshy (Jun 8, 2017)

I'm glad I read this one till the end. 

The bigger baseplate may have worked but I think the neck heel or pocket just needed adjusting so that sounds like a CNC issue. Neck break angle and bridge height are probably the most critical things in terms of making a guitar playable so it's shocking that they were shipped out in that condition originally. Hipshot bridges are really comfortable but not when the saddles protrude like that. Shoddy work.

With all the number crunching above, it is indeed pathetic that they cannot honour their promises when dealing with surely a very manageable number of returns. That phone call would have had me raging. Totally uncalled for. If I was running that company, I'd have fired that customer service guy on the spot for such bullshit. It seems he got it into his head you were an impossible to satisfy customer nitpicking over saddle height but it was completely wrongly set up. That's their mistake in QC and setup! It should have been flagged up but they preferred to ship out a faulty product instead, hoping the buyer wouldn't care. This is arrogant to say the least and what I've come to expect from a lot of big brands.


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## marcwormjim (Jun 9, 2017)

The issue is that they're _not _a big brand - But the third-generation curse seems to be invoked by Jeff's customer-bashing peacocking about the brand he inherited being too big to fail, rather than using his weekly vlogs to reassure the public that customer-satisfaction is more important than pimping his latest crayon-designed instrument.

Kiesel Guitars could easily be the company it pretends to be, if only their policies and marketing shifted toward being proud of what they did today, rather than their perpetually-awesome ambitions for tomorrow.


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## Syphon (Jul 15, 2017)

I found this thread while googling kiesel wait times for an upcoming vader 8 build I want done. I think I'm just going to get the strandberg after seeing those bridge pics. There's no way I'm going to spend thousands of dollars to have someone talk like that to me after I've identified an obvious design flaw. I custom order guitars because I want IDEAL, not "in spec". 

Is that not the difference between assembly line guitars and custom anyways?


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## prlgmnr (Jul 16, 2017)

Assembly line you get it the way the builder specs it because they're making a thousand and they have to be all the same, custom you get it the way the builder specs it because ffs what do you know you're just some nobody and he makes guitars for a living, right? Just take it like this and be happy with it.


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## prlgmnr (Jul 16, 2017)

Note: Some custom builders may not exhibit attitude suggested in above post.


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