# Line 6's answer to the Axefx?



## biggness (Aug 14, 2010)

Community: Does anyone else have the scoop on the...

I guess only time will tell...

Anyone have any info on this thing?


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## signalgrey (Aug 14, 2010)

i want a Vetta III not another Spider mish mash.


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## Customisbetter (Aug 14, 2010)

meh


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## Larrikin666 (Aug 14, 2010)

signalgrey said:


> i want a Vetta III not another Spider mish mash.



Agreed. I'd find that more appealing.


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## TomAwesome (Aug 14, 2010)

New modeling technology please, or I really don't give half a shit.


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## 7 Strings of Hate (Aug 14, 2010)

line 6's answers is going to be roll over and die hopefully. god i hate line 6  (i'v had about 4 or 5 different line 6 products die on me for no reason)


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## TomAwesome (Aug 14, 2010)

I've moved on to Fractal, but I still like Line 6. For most people, their gear is pretty dependable. I wish well for them, but they really need to ditch their current business model if they're going to have any chance of keeping up in the future.


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## Dehumanize (Aug 14, 2010)

I've never heard a good sound from a Line 6 product.


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## ZXIIIT (Aug 14, 2010)

Rack mount Vetta III


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## Andromalia (Aug 14, 2010)

I'm not sure Line 6 is even wanting to compete, their target market is different. You don't sell 200$ PODs and 2500$ Ultras to the same people. And I'm pretty sure for a big company the entry level market is more profitable.


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## GeoMantic (Aug 14, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> I'm not sure Line 6 is even wanting to compete, their target market is different. You don't sell 200$ PODs and 2500$ Ultras to the same people. And I'm pretty sure for a big company the entry level market is more profitable.



That.

Also, Vetta > Spider any day.


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## Zugster (Aug 14, 2010)

GSP1101 > anything line 6

If I decide to trade up from the 1101 I'll go to an Ultra. For now I'm staying put with 1101 > ts100 > 2x12.


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## splinter8451 (Aug 14, 2010)

Dehumanize said:


> I've never heard a good sound from a Line 6 product.



None of the Animals As Leaders album tones are good to your ears? 

Reminds me of the thread with the video of Tosin playing Wave of Babies where everyone was orgasming about the guitar tone in the track saying it had to be a new mix with the Axe FX, then Tosin himself said it was the original Pod XT recording 

There are definitely good sounds to be had in Line 6 products, especially the Vetta and PODs. 

ALSO

Didn't anyone read around through that guys link? Some guy in one of those threads had what looked like a new Vetta head.


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## AzzMan (Aug 14, 2010)

splinter8451 said:


> None of the Animals As Leaders album tones are good to your ears?



Funny thing about that... I couldn't stand how that album sounded. I even thought Periphery's full length would sound like that and that turned me off from the band because of those tones. Just saying.


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## jbcrazy (Aug 14, 2010)

My Flextone literally... BLEW up in practice. You can get some good tones out of the POD series or the Vetta, but the feel when you play is definetly not there.


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## BlindingLight7 (Aug 14, 2010)

This is probably Line 6's last chance to make something better than a kid's toy.

A rackmount Vetta III would probably cost about the same as an AxeFx Standard, and it probably wouldn't be better, although it would be a full amplifier.


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## loktide (Aug 14, 2010)

according to thomann (germany's largest music retail store) it will be released by the end of september. it was removed from their site for this reason. apparently, it will go for 500&#8364; (400$). 

the '16 amp models' sound like it will be the same preamp as the spider valve mkii with M13 FX. so yet another repack of their (old) tech onto a new housing.


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## Dehumanize (Aug 14, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> I'm not sure Line 6 is even wanting to compete, their target market is different. You don't sell 200$ PODs and 2500$ Ultras to the same people. And I'm pretty sure for a big company the entry level market is more profitable.


People are dropping PODs left and right for Axe FX.



splinter8451 said:


> None of the Animals As Leaders album tones are good to your ears?
> 
> Reminds me of the thread with the video of Tosin playing Wave of Babies where everyone was orgasming about the guitar tone in the track saying it had to be a new mix with the Axe FX, then Tosin himself said it was the original Pod XT recording
> 
> ...


I don't like any of this 'djent' and 8-string infatuation that's going on. I've been watching his videos, including that EMG studios one, and his tone never really struck me, but his playing did. I couldn't sit and listen to the band though.


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## Rick (Aug 14, 2010)

I'll stick with the X3 Pro, thanks.

EDIT: Why, hello....







http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showpost.php?p=8867780&postcount=89


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## NickDowe (Aug 14, 2010)

i think this is all a matter of opinion realy. I have played through line 6 gear for years... i take a very dry over driven line 6 signal and warm it up with a tube power amp through some Mesa 4x12 cabs and its TITS!! I currently play through the spider HD100 bogner and record with pod farm and i get some realy great sounds out of it... just takes some tweaking and lowering the drive on almost every channel lol


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## TomAwesome (Aug 14, 2010)

Rick said:


> I'll stick with the X3 Pro, thanks.
> 
> EDIT: Why, hello....
> 
> ...



Sweet! That could be pretty neat if it has some new stuff in it. If it's just a matter of, "We put two Vettas into one box! Wow!" or similar, though, then no thanks.

Edit: Oh, and while I kind of like how that amp looks, I still prefer the look of the Vetta II.


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## splinter8451 (Aug 14, 2010)

AzzMan said:


> Funny thing about that... I couldn't stand how that album sounded. I even thought Periphery's full length would sound like that and that turned me off from the band because of those tones. Just saying.



Well, Periphery's full length was done on the Axe FX. No need to be turned off. Although I'm sure he coulda recorded it on the X3 and told everyone it was on the Axe and not many people would have questioned him  

And to Rick, that is the picture I was talking about thanks for getting it in here.


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## zetzga (Aug 14, 2010)

This is a Vetta 1 combo in a head shell, not a Vetta III prototype!




Rick said:


> I'll stick with the X3 Pro, thanks.
> 
> EDIT: Why, hello....
> 
> ...


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## TomAwesome (Aug 14, 2010)




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## zetzga (Aug 14, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


>



I am sad too 

Hope Line 6 will make an Axe-Fx killer Vetta III head.


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## splinter8451 (Aug 14, 2010)

ah damn.


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## Rick (Aug 14, 2010)

zetzga said:


> This is a Vetta 1 combo in a head shell, not a Vetta III prototype!



I'm not at all trying to sound like a dick (please believe that) but how do you know?


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## AzzMan (Aug 14, 2010)

splinter8451 said:


> Well, Periphery's full length was done on the Axe FX. No need to be turned off. Although I'm sure he coulda recorded it on the X3 and told everyone it was on the Axe and not many people would have questioned him




Oh yeah, the Periphery album sounds AMAZING. I was really happy when I got it and it sounded nothing like AAL.


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## zetzga (Aug 14, 2010)

just look at it's back, old Line 6 logo, silver face plate :


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## Rick (Aug 14, 2010)

Ah, didn't see that.


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## Inazone (Aug 14, 2010)

As it is, most of the Line 6 stuff is overkill for the people who buy it. The majority of that crowd wouldn't have the attention span to dial in most of the better preamps/amps on the market. Even when the first Flextones and PODs came out, they made way more sense for studio use or cover band gigs than most of the people who actually buy them, only two use a couple of amp models and effects. Virtually everyone else buying them just goes into effects overload, throwing flangers and insane chorus on stuff that absolutely doesn't sound good with it.

Like most days at Guitar Center!


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## Andromalia (Aug 15, 2010)

> People are dropping PODs left and right for Axe FX.


People wanting to invest 2K in music gear, certainly. Which amounts to a lot of people on music forums, who ara at least invested hobbyists, and amounts to practically nothing on the market as a whole.
For one forumer who has a head and cab, you'll have 10 kids with a pod playing on headphones with their entry level Squier or something. don't be deceived by internet demographics, people posting on forums are not representative of the whole. (Same goes for gaming forums etc)



> As it is, most of the Line 6 stuff is overkill for the people who buy it.


Most of any gear people around here buy is overkill. How many 100W heads used for bedroom jamming ? ^^


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## Murmel (Aug 15, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> For one forumer who has a head and cab, you'll have 10 kids with a pod playing on headphones with their entry level Squier or something. don't be deceived by internet demographics, people posting on forums are not representative of the whole. (Same goes for gaming forums etc)


I play with headphones through my Line6 Studio GX and Pod Farm because that's the best thing I have atm... Other than my 15w Spider III, but it soudns kinda crappy and is only good for watching TV and playing at the same time


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## signalgrey (Aug 15, 2010)

ive been totally satisfied with my POD XT and with my M13, the effects sound great and the tones ive been using are great, no qualms.

my issue is that the VETTA series is supposed to be their flagship model. the creme of the crop. I feel like the stuff they have been coming out with is not anywhere near where the Vetta series is supposed to be. I dont really care about the AXE FX VS. LINE6 debate because i think it comes down to different tastes, i personally havent liked the AxeFx stuff ive heard on the forum.

basically Line6 just needs to step shit up and come out with something worthy of the flagship title. they do have competition now so i hopefully the whole spider amp thing has been experimentation on a smaller scale to see what works for the Vetta III


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## xCaptainx (Aug 15, 2010)

I'm really looking forward to seeing what Line 6 do next to combat the Axe-FX. I recently traded my krank rig for a Vetta head/cab + floorboard. 

I havent heard it yet, or an Axe-FX in person yet but I'm leaning more towards the Vetta in the long run (i.e. no need/want to move to Axe-FX) because the Vetta + Floorboard suits my needs a lot better (having a tuner/volume/wah/whammy on my floorboard controller rules) and seems a lot easier to tweak on the fly (it looks/feels like an amp!) 

Most NZ venues are small/medium sized and I still want to use my 4x12. If I went to Axe-FX I'd need to get a poweramp/case/upgrade my g50 wireless to g90 rackmount + rackmounted tuner. I cant be bothered (and dont have the cash!)


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## Guitarmiester (Aug 16, 2010)

I'm with signalgrey. I don't care for the pointless, _"let's compare X to an AxeFx!" _There's tons of good, usable tones to be had from a Pod. It takes a bit of tweaking and experimenting, but they're there. To the guy who claims he doesn't like a single thing he's heard from a Pod... I'm sure you've listened to several songs without realizing a Pod was used that you'd assume was an actual amp. 

I doubt Line6 is looking to compete with the AxeFx. Line6, just like many other companies, has reverted to targeting the low to mid-level market to be affordable for any musician. They did away with the Vetta because sales were low and then pulled the plug on support for Vetta users. What makes you think they're going to bother competing with the AxeFx? 

Their target is entry to mid-level musicians. It wouldn't make any sense for them to reveal a $1200+ piece of gear with the hopes of being _"better"_ than the AxeFx. I'm sure they'd sell, but not enough to make it worth their while. Line6 is known for repackaging old technology and passing it off as a new product. They're aware that consumers have caught on to this, which is yet another reason to not bother with the high end market.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 16, 2010)

Dehumanize said:


> People are dropping PODs left and right for Axe FX.



Though look who those "people" are. They're typically gearheads or gearwhores who are already used to some high end equipment. They're only just starting to catch on with everyday guitarists and players. I know three people with AxeFx's personally (i.e. not just folks I know on forums) and ust about every guitarist, bassist, and dude with a small studio set-up I know has at least one POD, sometimes more. Even the guys I know who have AxeFx's have kept their PODs and used them on occasion.

The AxeFx will NEVER have the presence in the market the Line 6 PODs do. I can wake up in the morning pick up a POD 2.0 for $200 and have amazing recorded tones by the afternoon with no other external gear. To do the same with the AxeFx you'd need at least $1500, wait a week, then buy an interface, and that doesn't even factor in tweaking. For a lot of people going the AxeFx route, just isn't an option. 

The idea that Line 6 has to compete directly with Fractal is just silly. They're going after completely different sectors of the market, and both have very different strategies. It's like saying Native Instruments has to compete with Peavey because of Revalver. They can both exist without any problem. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm really GAS-ing for an AxeFx (the idea of going tube-free is awesome enough to give me goosebumps ), but I still love my PODs, and still consider Line 6 to make some great stuff for guitarists who have needs only digital gear can provide, yet don't have the cash for a Fractal rig.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 16, 2010)

Line 6 is not competing with fractal (and shouldn't) but they really need to do something _*NEW*_. not (basically) the same thing >9,000 times-in that way they aren't being much better than fender or gibson. (IMHO of course)


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## vampiregenocide (Aug 16, 2010)

Line 6 is aimed at people like me who can't afford expensive recording equipment.


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## Rashputin (Aug 16, 2010)

I love my X3. I'd buy the sh#"t out of that thing (if it's real). Fractal sounds great though, but it's really expensive. If this new one from L6 sounds good, and doesn't cost an arm and a gonad, I'd buy one considering its a pedal board as well.


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## newamerikangospel (Aug 16, 2010)

I will say that I am perfectly happy with my POD Farm tones I have  

However, Line 6 will not be a company that will start making $1600 units specifically. A 14 year old kid who talked his parents into buying him a guitar is probably going to get a line 6 spider II, 25 watt amp; not a $1600 AxeFx, 2-90-2 power amp, and a vader cab.


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## Andii (Aug 16, 2010)

Line6 needs to get it together regardless of who their target market is. There is nothing wrong with sounding good at any price point.


What the market really needs right now is a reasonably priced rackmounted VST host device for running VST amps and impulses. The Poulin VST amps are better than anything line6 has ever done.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 16, 2010)

newamerikangospel said:


> However, Line 6 will not be a company that will start making $1600 units specifically. A 14 year old kid who talked his parents into buying him a guitar is probably going to get a line 6 spider II, 25 watt amp; not a $1600 AxeFx, 2-90-2 power amp, and a vader cab.


 
But what about us touring musicians and likewise gear/tone guys. I have a Vetta and love it. It sure beats having a huge pedalboard from hell. 

Sure the 14 year old wont buy it, but what about all the metalcore/metal kids going to Meshuggah, After The Burial, Devon Townsend, White Chapel shows etc etc. It feels like line 6 is slowly losing the market in high end products. I'm pretty sure Dino is still using Line 6, but I wonder when he'll make the move to fractual, if at all? 

That being said however, I just picked up the G50 wireless system and it's the best wireless unit I've ever had. So all is not lost. Plus the newer multi effects pedals they do look amazing. I actually had one on laybuy before finding someone to trade my Krank Rev+ for a Vettta + FBV floorboard.


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## maccayoung (Aug 17, 2010)

I really hope it's not some mash up of existing line 6 tech. I used to be a big fan of theirs, but they gradually lost me. They abandoned their so called flagship vetta in favour of re-releasing the same product over and over again in different forms. Line 6 used to be the innovators in modeling, now it seems they're the innovators in recycling.

I'm hoping this latest line 6 product proves me wrong.


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## signalgrey (Aug 17, 2010)

thats my biggest issue with software driven amps. they can become abandonware. tube amps...wont.

i know i know youll still have the same tones in the Axe or the Vetta but..i dunno. it doesnt leave me with a good feeling.

i want a Vetta III and i want Line 6 to step it up./


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## Customisbetter (Aug 17, 2010)

Andii said:


> What the market really needs right now is a reasonably priced rackmounted VST host device for running VST amps and impulses. The Poulin VST amps are better than anything line6 has ever done.



This this a thousand times this


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2010)

Andii said:


> What the market really needs right now is a reasonably priced rackmounted VST host device for running VST amps and impulses. The Poulin VST amps are better than anything line6 has ever done.





I'm surprised with the plummeting price of powerful computer components we don't see more rack computers integrated into rigs. For about $600 you can get yourself one mean three rack space computer capable of running all the VSTs and Plug-ins you can dish at it.


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## Rick (Aug 17, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Line 6 is aimed at people like me who can't afford expensive recording equipment.



Amen.


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## Guitarmiester (Aug 17, 2010)

signalgrey said:


> i want a Vetta III and i want Line 6 to step it up./



I used to keep up with the Line6 board when I used a Vetta II. A few months into owning the Vetta II, Line6 left Vetta users hanging. I remember there being countless threads and drawn out discussion concerning their next move for Vetta users. Talk of the Vetta III came up and one of the Line6 reps chimed in and stated there will be no Vetta III and that they were not working on one or even considering one. 

I liked the Vetta II. It'd be interesting to see a Vetta III, especially if Line6 was to step up and bring something new to the table. I highly doubt that will ever happen though. 

Look at the PodX3... there was a lot of talk prior to the release, yet they really didn't deliver. The upgrades were minimal. Its biggest driving factors were the dual amp feature and an effects loop. That was a nice addition, but still wasn't anything above and beyond the existing PodXT.


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## silentrage (Aug 17, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm surprised with the plummeting price of powerful computer components we don't see more rack computers integrated into rigs. For about $600 you can get yourself one mean three rack space computer capable of running all the VSTs and Plug-ins you can dish at it.



To run things at near realtime (<10ms) you need a really powerful computer, don't you?


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2010)

silentrage said:


> To run things at near realtime (<10ms) you need a really powerful computer, don't you?



Have you seen the prices on SSD and RAM these days? You can get a VERY powerful computer for very little cash if you build it yourself.

Interfaces are getting cheaper and better as well.


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## jeremyb (Aug 17, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm surprised with the plummeting price of powerful computer components we don't see more rack computers integrated into rigs. For about $600 you can get yourself one mean three rack space computer capable of running all the VSTs and Plug-ins you can dish at it.



Who'd trust one live tho', especially if its running windows! You'd at least want a secondary live machine as a redundant backup.


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## Andromalia (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't think it's a matter of horsepower, rather a matter of reliability and clunkyness. you still need a keyboard and screen to operate a computer, if even to start it when coming to the rehearsal/venue. Might as well use a laptop in this case.
also keep in mind that hard drives still are mechanicals that don't like to be moved overmuch, SSD might be a progress there. Dropping a flight case with a regular HD in it pretty much guarantees you'll shoot your HD.


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## Customisbetter (Aug 17, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> I don't think it's a matter of horsepower, rather a matter of reliability and clunkyness. you still need a keyboard and screen to operate a computer, if even to start it when coming to the rehearsal/venue. Might as well use a laptop in this case.
> also keep in mind that hard drives still are mechanicals that don't like to be moved overmuch, SSD might be a progress there. Dropping a flight case with a regular HD in it pretty much guarantees you'll shoot your HD.



Im wondering if you have ever moved a computer...


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## Andromalia (Aug 17, 2010)

I actually have moved hundreds of them, I have worked for a few years in a network room.  The Hard drive failures are much more common that what you can believe. Servers do not use RAID redudancy for show.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 17, 2010)

biggness said:


> Community: Does anyone else have the scoop on the...
> 
> I guess only time will tell...
> 
> Anyone have any info on this thing?



Copying and pasting a link without reading it: priceless. If you read the thread this unit isn't going to be competing with Fractal whatsoever. 



Rick said:


> I'm not at all trying to sound like a dick (please believe that) but how do you know?



I know that someone already pointed out that it looked like a Vetta I but the dude who posted those pics later confessed to just rehousing his Vetta I combo. Not sure why he said it was "new" though...


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2010)

jeremyb said:


> Who'd trust one live tho', especially if its running windows! You'd at least want a secondary live machine as a redundant backup.



This isn't going to be a computer used for anything other than running a couple programs and that's it. I've used a laptop for various things live before and it's never failed. I'd say the reliability is on par with tube amps, as I've seen MANY tube amps die on people while playing live. If you don't feel confident with running Windows rolleyes then just set the box to use MacOS, there are a few tutorial online showing it's perfectly stable on Intel chipped DIY computers. Heck, with more programs becoming available binary, you'd probably be able to find some nifty stuff for Linux based systems. 

Any piece of gear can die, so like anything else, it'd be best to have a backup. 



Andromalia said:


> I don't think it's a matter of horsepower, rather a matter of reliability and clunkyness. you still need a keyboard and screen to operate a computer, if even to start it when coming to the rehearsal/venue. Might as well use a laptop in this case.
> also keep in mind that hard drives still are mechanicals that don't like to be moved overmuch, SSD might be a progress there. Dropping a flight case with a regular HD in it pretty much guarantees you'll shoot your HD.



Have you seen the Tough Book line of laptops? They can take a LOT of abuse and be just fine. I think a rack computer or laptop running SSDs and mounted in a shock case (like a lot of amps already are) would be perfectly fine. Of course dropping it would be a problem, but I've seen amp heads dropped and had their pots snap off PC boards and tubes shatter.

As for the monitor, a thin LCD mounted onto a rack shelf should be fine, and you could always use a track ball in place of a mouse. Of course you could always integrate the two in a touch screen set-up. 

With a proper MIDI pedal all you'll have to do it power up (SSDs will speed that up significantly), launch the programs needed (in a saved session of course), and then leave it. 

*I'm not saying this is the be all end all solution.* I'm just surprised it's not seen _as much_ given the quality of computer based processing and the nose dive in prices these past years.


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## Andii (Aug 17, 2010)

silentrage said:


> To run things at near realtime (<10ms) you need a really powerful computer, don't you?



A quad core cpu is $99 so it's not much of a hurdle.


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## Customisbetter (Aug 17, 2010)

I still have yet to figure out how to get latency under 185 ms, so i guess im not going that route anytime soon.


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## HighGain510 (Aug 17, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> I actually have moved hundreds of them, I have worked for a few years in a network room.  The Hard drive failures are much more common that what you can believe. Servers do not use RAID redudancy for show.



I have moved hundreds of servers and desktops myself, while hard drive failures do occur if they're happening due to you moving the computer you're doing it wrong...


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> I still have yet to figure out how to get latency under 185 ms, so i guess im not going that route anytime soon.



What's your set-up? 
What program's are you running?


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## Customisbetter (Aug 17, 2010)

Swissonic USB studio interface (its ancient)

USB 1.1 connection

PC running Reaper

 Obvious bottleneck is pretty obvious


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## silentrage (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm running sonar with revalver mkiii on a amd phenom quadcore, still can't get real time out of it, especially if I have some other fx in the bus.


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## Andromalia (Aug 19, 2010)

HighGain510 said:


> I have moved hundreds of servers and desktops myself, while hard drive failures do occur if they're happening due to you moving the computer you're doing it wrong...


You don't need to quote out of context to play the smart boy, you know. I was relating to the fact that "classic" hard drives in equipment that will get moved and shoved a lot is a bad idea.
One tip: why do you figure nobody is doing it yet if it's so reliable uh ?


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## silentrage (Aug 19, 2010)

I just remembered, you could probably use solid stage HDs for that, they won't get damaged through shock, but they're pretty damn expensive right now.


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## TreWatson (Aug 19, 2010)

http://db.tt/tIbhSNa

line 6 tone.

it could be better, but it is certainly not bad.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 19, 2010)

silentrage said:


> I just remembered, you could probably use solid stage HDs for that, they won't get damaged through shock, but they're pretty damn expensive right now.



The prices are coming down actually. You're not going to need tons of storage space, basically only enough for the OS, and audio programs, with a little breathing room of course. 

Newegg.com - SSD, Solid State Drive, Solid State Disk Drive

It's not near as cheap as conventional drives, but it's not too bad anymore. I remember when 32GB SSDs where $300. 



Andromalia said:


> One tip: why do you figure nobody is doing it yet if it's so reliable uh ?



It's hard enough to get guitarists to not use 70 year old tube and analog technologies, let alone build there own computers.


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## Andromalia (Aug 19, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> It's hard enough to get guitarists to not use 70 year old tube and analog technologies, let alone build there own computers.



Er...touché.


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## TreWatson (Aug 19, 2010)

I dunno, I use my Toneport UX8 run through my Laptop With POD Farm 2, I can switch between 2 patches with my Pedal, and literally, as soon as my Foot comes up off the pedal, the tone swaps, with no delay, or, a delay so fast it's not noticeable in the slightest.

am i missing something on this "real time" discussion?


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## TMM (Aug 19, 2010)

TreKita said:


> I dunno, I use my Toneport UX8 run through my Laptop With POD Farm 2, I can switch between 2 patches with my Pedal, and literally, as soon as my Foot comes up off the pedal, the tone swaps, with no delay, or, a delay so fast it's not noticeable in the slightest.
> 
> am i missing something on this "real time" discussion?



Think we're talking about latency from the time you hit your strings to the time a sound is produced. It's not at the speed-of-electricity, like playing through a live amp would be.


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## TreWatson (Aug 19, 2010)

TMM said:


> Think we're talking about latency from the time you hit your strings to the time a sound is produced. It's not at the speed-of-electricity, like playing through a live amp would be.


 
but yeah, even then, when i play through it, there's like, no latency at all, as long as i'm running the standalone exe and not the VST plugin.

and I use the standalone when we play live.


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## Ben.Last (Aug 19, 2010)

Stephen Carpenter is running a laptop now with Guitar Rig for all the band's new material along side his old rig. Not quite what you guys are talking about but it's getting there.


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## silentrage (Aug 19, 2010)

Yeah I saw a video demo of guitar rig 3 and the guy was using it for live gigs, and it worked pretty well from what I saw.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 19, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> Stephen Carpenter is running a laptop now with Guitar Rig for all the band's new material along side his old rig. Not quite what you guys are talking about but it's getting there.



That's the gist of what I've been getting at. Thanks for posting. 

I remember Vernon Reid was doing something similar for live stuff, not sure if he still is, though I think he was using Amplitube.


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## Ben.Last (Aug 20, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That's the gist of what I've been getting at. Thanks for posting.
> 
> I remember Vernon Reid was doing something similar for live stuff, not sure if he still is, though I think he was using Amplitube.



Yeah. I posted the SC video where he was talking about his current rig a month or 2 ago. 

Wasn't Dweezil Zappa using Guitar Rig live for a while too?

NIN used Logic and Front Stage to some capacity (Reznor, at least, was using just that) on their last couple tours also. 

In all honesty, I'm getting more and more interested in, at the very least, including a laptop in the rig I'm currently putting together.


----------



## gunshow86de (Aug 22, 2010)

Just got my newest issue of Guitar World in the mail, and low and behold, there's an ad for the Line 6 POD HD. It looks like it's going to be 3 levels of floor processors (like the POD X3 Live). The HD500, HD400 and HD 300.


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## Andii (Aug 22, 2010)

PODHD | Line 6

This has me wondering so many things. It definitely isn't a repackaging.

The GW ad:
_"16 amps., 2 years. 
The search is over. 

Some say it's the journey, some say it's the destination. In this case it's both. 

Brick by brick, our entire approach to amp modeling was torn apart and redesigned from the ground up. Our two-year journey finally delivered us to the tonal promised land: a set of HD amp models so advanced they offer previously unachievable realism in attack, dynamics, compression, and aggression. The amp modeling originators have revolutionized amp modeling. Again. 

We scoured the globe for 16 vintage and modern amps every guitarist will covet. Full-bodied California cleans, dynamic class-A breakup, searing high-gain tones - POD HD showcases them all, in stunning HD! Plus, generous collections of legendary Line 6 effects deliver more then enough sonic colors and textures to inspire performance in every player. 

The POD HD story is a true adventure. Experience the journey yourself at PODHD | Line 6"_


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## gunshow86de (Aug 22, 2010)

^
They must have just added the HD to their site; I checked this morning and I saw nutzing!!


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## Andii (Aug 22, 2010)

loktide said:


> according to thomann (germany's largest music retail store) it will be released by the end of september. it was removed from their site for this reason. apparently, it will go for 500&#8364; (400$).



I'm quoting loktide's post because he had info early in the thread about something we now know more about.


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## TomAwesome (Aug 22, 2010)

So... there _is_ entirely new amp modeling tech after all?


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## gunshow86de (Aug 22, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> So... there _is_ entirely new amp modeling tech after all?



That's what they claim. I'm interested to see the results. The POD HD500 is going to be a good deal more expensive than the X3 Live. I hope they have the product to back up the price increase.


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## Guitarmiester (Aug 22, 2010)

It'll be interesting to see/hear how these turn out. Looks like it could be an M13 with additional amp modeling.


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## ZXIIIT (Aug 22, 2010)

Damn, I was holding my breath for a Vetta III Valve hybrid.


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## Rick (Aug 22, 2010)

I don't want a fucking floorboard.


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## TomAwesome (Aug 22, 2010)

Rick said:


> I don't want a fucking floorboard.



If the new tech sells well, I'm sure there will be a POD HD Pro. The Pros tend to come out some time after the floor versions for whatever reason. Still, though, a Vetta III would have been sweet if the new modeling turns out to be significantly better.


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## 777 (Aug 22, 2010)

If it gets rid of the previous pods problems(horrible high end hiss and lack of overall smoothness) ill have one


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## Rick (Aug 22, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> If the new tech sells well, I'm sure there will be a POD HD Pro. The Pros tend to come out some time after the floor versions for whatever reason. Still, though, a Vetta III would have been sweet if the new modeling turns out to be significantly better.



Sure hope so.


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## Justin Bailey (Aug 22, 2010)

fractal need to make a student model and just destroy line 6


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## Gameboypdc (Aug 22, 2010)

Well all I can say is, Line 6 better design all 12 of those amps for Metal music. L6 released more than plenty of clean tone amp simulations when they made the kidney and pedal board.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Aug 22, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Though look who those "people" are. They're typically gearheads or gearwhores who are already used to some high end equipment. They're only just starting to catch on with everyday guitarists and players. I know three people with AxeFx's personally (i.e. not just folks I know on forums) and ust about every guitarist, bassist, and dude with a small studio set-up I know has at least one POD, sometimes more. Even the guys I know who have AxeFx's have kept their PODs and used them on occasion.
> 
> The AxeFx will NEVER have the presence in the market the Line 6 PODs do. I can wake up in the morning pick up a POD 2.0 for $200 and have amazing recorded tones by the afternoon with no other external gear. To do the same with the AxeFx you'd need at least $1500, wait a week, then buy an interface, and that doesn't even factor in tweaking. For a lot of people going the AxeFx route, just isn't an option.
> 
> ...



I really would not called Line 6 stuff plug and play.


----------



## Zugster (Aug 22, 2010)

Justin Bailey said:


> fractal need to make a student model and just destroy line 6


 

If it turns out badly they kill their reputation. And if it turns out stellar, they risk canabalizing sales of the standard and ultra. That's a lose lose proposition for Fractal. They won't do it. They'll leave the low end of the market to Line6.


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## silentrage (Aug 22, 2010)

Personally I think a Axe Fx that has half the processing power, half the amp models, half the fx, half the memory, that sells for half the price (hopefully half the size) would sell like... like something that sells really well.


----------



## rectifryer (Aug 22, 2010)

Twice as much?


----------



## TemjinStrife (Aug 22, 2010)

Gameboypdc said:


> Well all I can say is, Line 6 better design all 12 of those amps for Metal music. L6 released more than plenty of clean tone amp simulations when they made the kidney and pedal board.



They have an awful lot of high gain amps too. I bet they're going for a cross-section with those 12, since not everyone plays nothing but metal 

Plus, my experience with L6 stuff indicates that certain models are just *better* at some sounds than others, and I never ended up using 80% of the models available.

My guess is:
-Line 6 clean sound
-Fender Blackface Twin
-Fender Bassman
-Fender Tweed Deluxe or Champ
-Vox AC30
-Marshall JTM45
-Marshall Plexi
-Marshall Plexi 'variac'
-Marshall JCM800
-Soldano SLO100
-Mesa Dual Rectifier
-Line 6 Insane or something similar

We'll probably see something along those lines.


----------



## Cancer (Aug 22, 2010)

maccayoung said:


> I really hope it's not some mash up of existing line 6 tech. I used to be a big fan of theirs, but they gradually lost me. They abandoned their so called flagship vetta in favour of re-releasing the same product over and over again in different forms. Line 6 used to be the innovators in modeling, now it seems they're the innovators in recycling.
> 
> I'm hoping this latest line 6 product proves me wrong.



This....

I was Line 6 fan since the Pod 1, and IMO their hasn't been a real update since the XT. At this point the ONLY way Line 6 can get me as a customer again (currently using the Roland GT-10) is to come out with a modeling system with Fractal level routing. This mean separating the amp and cabinet models (so you can put effects between them), the ability to use your own impulses, and a rack mount unit thats not a space hog like X3 Pro. If that doesn't happen I'll be a Fractal owner by 2011.


----------



## cyril v (Aug 22, 2010)

heres a thread of interest for anyone wanting to keep up on this stuff.

Can Line 6 answer the AxeFX and ElevenRack? - The Gear Page


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## Variant (Aug 22, 2010)

Justin Bailey said:


> fractal need to make a student model and just destroy line 6



That's a bit of a hasty and assumptive statement, IMHO. Other than chipset and respective processing power to accommodate the modeling and convolution algorithms, *the make-or-break* of any of these devices is in the programming mojo, and price point has little to do with that. If the lines of code are in the right order, this may very well be a better sounding and playing unit than the Fractal... or it may not. 

There are already freeware amp models that are very close to Fractal's, and impulses that are superior out there for in-the-box application, and most people have found the dynamic responsiveness of DigiDesign's Eleven to be better than the Fractal... so while the Axe-Fx certainly rules the roost so far as sound quality and processing power goes, this is really the realm of overnight obsolescence. I'd definitely give the HD line a chance.


----------



## BlindingLight7 (Aug 22, 2010)

Well, I'm waiting, I like my XT for boosting my amp and recording, but it still isn't analog sounding.

Maybe this will be better, I'll buy it if there's as pro edition.


----------



## biggness (Aug 23, 2010)

For those of you that don't travel far beyond this forum's backyard, there is a thread over on TGP that has some good information striaght from the horse's mouth.  I must say, as an AxeFx Ultra owner, I am still interested in these. Not so much because the Axe is lacking, but more so that I wonder if Line 6 has made some discoveries in the modeling world. 

New Pod HD series - The Gear Page

*RichRenken* is who you need to pay attention to in that thread. For those with a short attention span, I did all the hard work for you. 



richrenken said:


> Rich here guys. I want to jump in here and answer questions and stuff but I have to run down to Tyler's shop to talk about the new guitar.
> 
> I answered a bunch of stuff over in another thread here. Can Line 6 answer the AxeFX and ElevenRack? - The Gear Page
> 
> I will hit this thread when I get back.





richrenken said:


> I will let all of you guys comment on what you think compared to the competition. It is so subjective. What I will say is that we shoot to be like the amps we model. Getting to that is our goal. So we have to wait till you guys get to go try these products and the products that haven't been leaked.





richrenken said:


> Actually, I know a great many great players that do share that opinion.
> There are great artist that we know that use all kinds of gear one way or the other for various reasons, emotional and rational.
> 
> Heck, even Todd Rundgren recorded his Arena album with Reason, a Tone Port, and Riffworks. That is it. For good reasons for where he was at at that point.





richrenken said:


> Did you miss the free update we did to the M13 where we added about 20FX and the other 3 updates we released as well as a release for the M9 that added some cool stuff like reading midi beat clock for free?
> 
> That said, we of course working on ways to make money so we can make the stuff you are about to see. You have to pay for research and development.





richrenken said:


> Hang tight, it is much much more. As soon as I can say, I will.





richrenken said:


> I will say that we did not just add the "HD".





richrenken said:


> It is more about the fact that dealers and press are told that they can't "scoop" each other by releasing info early. These leaks are accidents and so hard to stop from happening. But we have to play fair. Even us. That is why I have to be cool.
> 
> I am saying that what is coming is amazing. It is so not just Spider IV back into a POD. It is ground up, way way different. The birth of this was started before I even came to Line 6 in 2005.





richrenken said:


> Someone here may have answered you already. The effects in M13 were never in a POD product. They effects in M13 came from the 4 button modelers and we added better converters and more powerful DSP to open up the effects even more. The M13 effects would not "fit" in POD. I had to fight to get Verbzilla into M13 because we had to port it from the moto chip instead of just using the reverbs from POD for "free".
> 
> The photo of the HD500 is correct as to the ID. It may have some photo-shopping in there because we take the pro pictures of a new product and sometimes we make a change after that and we fix it in photo shop.
> 
> I can tell you that we learned a lot putting the M13 into the market and the product manager for the HD500 was keeping that in the back of his mind the whole time.





richrenken said:


> I can tell you this. We did not leak these. Believe me, we are not happy about this at all. It is so so hard to rope down every dealer, we have to get them information early so they can build up their websites and have stuff ready to go. We have even messed up ourselves and put up a webpage before we were supposed to. Remember the bad Spider Valve sound sample videos that were temps and everyone thought they were real? eeekkkkk......
> 
> Honestly though, we have never done what you are saying here. The only on purpose leaking we did was for the original Spider Valve amp. Some products we can just announce early like the new Variax or like we did with M13, because it was new market for us. Of course we can't hurt sales of current products by talking about future products.





richrenken said:


> I can't say anything for sure. But I can say that it would be strange to not keep cool features like that as we go forward.
> 
> I never talk about other companies products. Stuff is too subjective. It is classless and this is your forum not mine or Line 6's. I try to just answer questions and clarify things. Believe me, I get upset, passionate, and I have opinions on a lot of gear.
> 
> ...





richrenken said:


> We had an engineer in the other day and he does major major rock records and he is dying to get one down to their studio. I mix records and I can tell I would love hearing these in a track.





richrenken said:


> I am probably already in trouble. J/K. I asked if I could jump in and at least let you know that this is next level, ground up, amazing. Just don't want there to be misinformation out there.





richrenken said:


> No. Sorry to confuse you. The M13 effects are in the HD500. They fit. They would not fit in the X3. So that should tell you where we are going with this HD500.





richrenken said:


> As soon as I can say I will. Got to keep a lid on for now.





richrenken said:


> Just can't talk about the product itself for now. I know where the line is. I just wanted to calm down the "its a Spider IV in a pedal with M13 effects talk".
> 
> The cool thing about your guys guesses at figuring it out really showed how we really have to emphasize that this is a ground up brand new thing that is truly next level. If we just say, HD without really explaining what is HD about it, I agree, who cares. But this was truly the best way we thought of talking about this. That is precisely why we didn't call it X4.





richrenken said:


> Oh, sorry. No the M-series isn't going away because of the HD PODs anymore than the 4 button modelers didn't go away because of the PODxts. They are for completely different customers.
> 
> We have ideas for the future of the Ms. But let's not turn this into the M thread.





richrenken said:


> Exactly. M9/M13 replace your pedals, the new POD can truly be a rack and midi controller replacement. Presets, some instant access, signal path stuff etc. Two different customers.


----------



## Emperoff (Aug 23, 2010)

At the price point which the most expensive model is gonna be (500$) we can't expect anything mindblowing.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 23, 2010)

Emperoff said:


> At the price point which the most expensive model is gonna be (500$) we can't expect anything mindblowing.



I wouldn't really think of it like that. 

Look at the hardware on the AxeFx, nothing mind blowing or costly to produce. This isn't like guitars which require a good deal of hardware work, modelers are software based, so in theory you're not paying for the product in the way you're paying for it's development. How much do you think the components to an AxeFx Ultra cost? 

Line 6 is a big enough company, with a wide enough product range and hold on the market to not have to pass every single cent of development onto the customer, opposed to Fractal who are a MUCH smaller shop, so they don't have the investment power like Line 6.


----------



## Emperoff (Aug 23, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I wouldn't really think of it like that.
> 
> Look at the hardware on the AxeFx, nothing mind blowing or costly to produce. This isn't like guitars which require a good deal of hardware work, modelers are software based, so in theory you're not paying for the product in the way you're paying for it's development. How much do you think the components to an AxeFx Ultra cost?
> 
> Line 6 is a big enough company, with a wide enough product range and hold on the market to not have to pass every single cent of development onto the customer, opposed to Fractal who are a MUCH smaller shop, so they don't have the investment power like Line 6.



Sadly, Line 6 stuff is not well known for its high-end gear, if we can say it has any. I'd be happy if I'm wrong, though.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Aug 23, 2010)

Emperoff said:


> Sadly, Line 6 stuff is not well known for high-end gear, if we can say it has any. I'd be happy if I'm wrong, though.



There's a big difference between not being known for high end gear, and having low end products. I think the Vetta [II] is just about the highest end modeling amp on the market at the moment, and as far as fully digital preamps they're kind of middle of the road. They're all certainly full featured, it's just the algorithms that people tend not to like in some cases. Don't confuse the M13/M9, Vetta, 4 Button Stomp Modelers, and X3s confused with the Spiders and Pocket PODs. 

High end or not, they haven't found there way into some amazing recordings on accident. 

I think looking at the price of the unit as the determinant of the quality to be fairly week at this stage of the game. Especially since they've supposedly started from the ground up on this product, and not just rehoused an existing product, like they have been. 

I'm not a huge Line 6 fan or anything, I just thing judging a product by it's price, regardless of what it is, is quite silly.


----------



## Emperoff (Aug 23, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> There's a big difference between not being known for high end gear, and having low end products. I think the Vetta [II] is just about the highest end modeling amp on the market at the moment, and as far as fully digital preamps they're kind of middle of the road. They're all certainly full featured, it's just the algorithms that people tend not to like in some cases. Don't confuse the M13/M9, Vetta, 4 Button Stomp Modelers, and X3s confused with the Spiders and Pocket PODs.
> 
> High end or not, they haven't found there way into some amazing recordings on accident.
> 
> ...



I'm judging it not only by it's price, but the quality-price ratio they have offered this years, which is average. And they were always geared to that sector (low-to mid budget). I'm not saying they make low quality stuff, but certainly not high end.

Also, a Vetta is not something amazing either, and they're not known for their awesome pre and power amps. I've tried plenty of Line 6 stuff as it served me well through the years, but I don't consider their stuff by no means awesome.


----------



## TemjinStrife (Aug 23, 2010)

Actually, I have loved all of their "serious" bass amps. The Low Down series (LD Studio 110, LD150, LD300, HD750) are just awesome value for money and offer great sounds.


----------



## signalgrey (Aug 23, 2010)

Emperoff said:


> I'm judging it not only by it's price, but the quality-price ratio they have offered this years, which is average. And they were always geared to that sector (low-to mid budget). I'm not saying they make low quality stuff, but certainly not high end.
> 
> Also, a Vetta is not something amazing either, and they're not known for their awesome pre and power amps. I've tried plenty of Line 6 stuff as it served me well through the years, but I don't consider their stuff by no means awesome.



I have to seriously dis agree with you on this. I think at any of the price ranges Line 6 has had they have offered A LOT for not so much money. Take the POD series for example, there alot to tweak and toy with and combined with the right software you have a huge array of tones to mix, and now furthered with their stereo amp set ups and stereo effect set ups etc.. A good deal is a good deal.

Not to mention that while these products arent the be all end all of modelling i feel as though they get "poo pooed" by people because newbies CAN afford them, so they immediately become uncool aesthetically. Yet if you look at the huge roster of artists using them live and the rediculous amounts of pro studios that have them some times in conjunction WITH an Axe

The Vetta series is just an extension of this, i see teh Axe and the Vetta as simply like a gibson versus fender arguement. Its just what you like. Personally i would still get a vetta over an Axe regardless of price, as i simply dont find them to be all that "OMGWTFBBQ" as so many people on the forum do, but thats my personal preference.

it just seems to me to be the same as someone giving Fender shit because they have the little starter champ amps and not ONLY Fender Twins, or giving marshall shit for the AVT series and for not ONLY making JVMs.


----------



## xCaptainx (Aug 23, 2010)

signalgrey said:


> The Vetta series is just an extension of this, i see teh Axe and the Vetta as simply like a gibson versus fender arguement. Its just what you like. Personally i would still get a vetta over an Axe regardless of price, as i simply dont find them to be all that "OMGWTFBBQ" as so many people on the forum do, but thats my personal preference.


 
Sounds good man, I agree. I just got a vettta but I've been a pod/HD147 user for a long, long time and I have to say, for the price I can line 6 products, I dont think I'll find the Axe FX to be 200% better in quality. For the price you can get them in NZ, I could get 2, nearly three X3 pros. Plus at the moment I'm using a custom Line 6 amp setting, haha. 

The only reason I'd sell my vetta is to invest in a future HD Pro preamp + mesa 20/20 poweramp should the new HD series have pro preamp version released (REALLY keen to find out more info about the HD. I have a feeling the first versions still wont beat the vetta in terms of functions + tweakability)


----------



## Ben.Last (Aug 24, 2010)

The only thing that kind of puts me off is the usage of "HD." It's getting thrown onto soooo many products at this point that it really has no actual value whatsoever. It's the modern equivalent to "gourmet." It has ended up meaning nothing.


----------



## Andii (Aug 24, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> The only thing that kind of puts me off is the usage of "HD." It's getting thrown onto soooo many products at this point that it really has no actual value whatsoever. It's the modern equivalent to "gourmet." It has ended up meaning nothing.



That was the first thing I was thinking. Terrible name. It reminded me of the first time I heard the name Xbox 360.


----------



## vlover (Aug 24, 2010)

I like tubes....


----------



## signalgrey (Aug 24, 2010)

vlover said:


> I like tubes....



as do I. I have two bands that i play in, one is completely analog, from tube driven pedals to EHX stuff, alllll analog, played through a Vox AC30 or a Blackstar Artisan 30.

then for the heavier stuff i record using both tube heads and Line 6 and my effects board is now simplfied down to a M13, with different scenes.

My thing personally is that i dont think that the Axe or the Vetta can give you that wild exponent of how the tubes and the various pedals are going to react, theres always that random element which is fun to persue. The Digital stuff ive been using has always been quite predictable, which is great for recording cause its good to have patches to pull up, but i LOVE the random element.


----------



## silentrage (Aug 24, 2010)

How about a button that randomizes all the settings and creates a new patch for you?


----------



## Krankguitarist (Aug 24, 2010)

I gotta say, this looks promising.

The m13 had some really great fx on it...if L6 can deliver on the amp modeling front, they might have a winner.

I'll be watching this one.


----------



## All_¥our_Bass (Aug 24, 2010)

silentrage said:


> How about a button that randomizes all the settings and creates a new patch for you?


Like a built-in "Ultimate Improbability Drive"? 

Just don't complain if/when your pedal turns into a whale.


----------



## biggness (Aug 24, 2010)

signalgrey said:


> as do I. I have two bands that i play in, one is completely analog, from tube driven pedals to EHX stuff, alllll analog, played through a Vox AC30 or a Blackstar Artisan 30.
> 
> then for the heavier stuff i record using both tube heads and Line 6 and my effects board is now simplfied down to a M13, with different scenes.
> 
> My thing personally is that i dont think that the Axe or the Vetta can give you that wild exponent of how the tubes and the various pedals are going to react, theres always that random element which is fun to persue. The Digital stuff ive been using has always been quite predictable, which is great for recording cause its good to have patches to pull up, but i LOVE the random element.



What you must understand is, there is nothing magical about a tube. It is easily broken down with proper math and science. The trick is writing the code that equates _all_ the math and science, in real time. As of lately, the offerings from many a companies are doing a pretty good job at this, as the technology increases.


----------



## Andromalia (Aug 24, 2010)

Most of the value of the axe-fx is fractal product support, ie, constant, frequent and FREE firmware updates, added amps, etc, etc.
For now, when you bought a POD, you got something and that was it, what you got was what you kept and would keep forever.
I haven't owned an axe for very long, but most long time owners seem to agree that the axe is much better sounding now than it was when first released.
Also, remember that most of the pro recordings done with PODs have been done using third party cabs and impulses, Line 6's are pretty bad. Some people do use third party cabs for their axes but the stock ones are pretty good in their own right.
I haven't owned a pod but have an UX8 I've used with podfarm for some time, it's a good unit, I've ditched it for home recording because it lacked MIDI and it ended up being impractical in conjunction with the axe.

Relating to hardware, keep in mind an amps sim will only require so much firepower, the rest is a matter of proper algorythm design. the standard for rock/metal is using one or two amps at a time with one or two cabs and effects, nobody runs 18 different heads at once (for good reason I suppose, I guess people who can afford it have tried), so the need for stacks of axe-fxes is non-existent, except if you wanna do some left/right tricks like Meshuggah does live. My axe patches usually eat up 50-80% of the CPU and I have a standard. Where it's at is speed of patch changes for live apps, ie info transmission latency, not raw power.


----------



## signalgrey (Aug 24, 2010)

silentrage said:


> How about a button that randomizes all the settings and creates a new patch for you?



what i mean is how the different pedals from each company interact. I have an MXR micro amp and a couple of different Germanium fuzzes and some of these fuzzes actually react to temperature, or perhaps the power supply is acting up and giving me an odd new sound. Im just saying that there is a "voodoo" in using a conglomeration of pedals from different eras, makes, companies etc... just that extra little unique quality each pedal brings to the table, but then all those little things interacting with eachother.

it would be cool to have a random button though hahahaha.....


----------



## Andromalia (Aug 24, 2010)

Well, a random button on Podfarm will likely result in a pile of shit. An axe fx can sound the way you don't want it to, but it's difficult to make it sound bad except if you go overboard with ridiculous EQing. Get any amp and put all settings at noon and you have at least an acceptable sound. With line 6 it's much more complicated than that.


----------



## signalgrey (Aug 24, 2010)

biggness said:


> What you must understand is, there is nothing magical about a tube. It is easily broken down with proper math and science. The trick is writing the code that equates _all_ the math and science, in real time. As of lately, the offerings from many a companies are doing a pretty good job at this, as the technology increases.




to a point i understand and agree with you. I do agree that these companies have been doing a bang up job on emulating these amps and effects and offering tones of options etc...

BUT

i respectfully disagree with the "magic" thing. Im no die hard tube guy, i am an avid digital effect user and digital amp user. But there is always a random factor in tubes and all that jazz. I know these Digital companies incorporate as much as possible but sometimes its just not the same. Digital amps dont age, have weird little quirks, cant be modded, have some strange new tube combo put in them, have an aged set of tubes integrated into a set. Just because they have a "vintage vox" amp from a certain year, doesnt mean its the Vintage Vox that has THAT sound ive never heard anywhere else etc... blah blah...

i just think there is a time and place for both, and that i personally think theres no reason to be exclusive. if it sounds good...it sounds good. Blend the two, use them in an a/b fashion etc..

ok ill get off the soap box.


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## silentrage (Aug 24, 2010)

Maybe someone will do a simulation that involves every capacitor, resistor, diode, triode and piece of wire in an amp, and give you options to "mod" it or replace "tubes" or "age" things, I mean if we can run weather simulations and brain simulations, why the hell not amps? 
You can have a "dumb" interface where you can only tweak the knobs on the front, then some users can click an "slightly-less-dumb" button that reveals the tubes which you can play with, then a "even-less-dumb" button that reveals bias, eventually to the metal composition of the wire that connects C31 to R10 at the 5th pin of the first push-pull pair of power tubes. 
You get the picture.


----------



## Andromalia (Aug 24, 2010)

Well, you already have modded Marshall amps in the Axe.  Adding a modded amp is no different than adding an amp. cliff just has to get his hands on it to model it, which can be an issue with the rarer stuff.


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## signalgrey (Aug 24, 2010)

silentrage said:


> Maybe someone will do a simulation that involves every capacitor, resistor, diode, triode and piece of wire in an amp, and give you options to "mod" it or replace "tubes" or "age" things, I mean if we can run weather simulations and brain simulations, why the hell not amps?
> You can have a "dumb" interface where you can only tweak the knobs on the front, then some users can click an "slightly-less-dumb" button that reveals the tubes which you can play with, then a "even-less-dumb" button that reveals bias, eventually to the metal composition of the wire that connects C31 to R10 at the 5th pin of the first push-pull pair of power tubes.
> You get the picture.



I do. that would be unbelievably epic. I really wish they would go that far, or at LEAST to tube mods, that would be awesome. a Vox with KT88s or a Uberschall with EL84s etc..


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## silentrage (Aug 24, 2010)

I thought what would be cool is to model each component from its new state to its break-down state, I know a lot of people proclaim things like an amp has to be at a certain temperature to sound good, or a speaker has to have ### hours on it, or a pickup sounds sweetest right before it goes dead, so if we had accurate simulations of change in components through their lifespan, we could theoretically have a setup that's always at its best, which is impossible in reality.


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## cwhitey2 (Aug 24, 2010)

All I gots to say is i _like _not love my Spider Valve MKii head. For what you get for $800-900 you really cant beat it (head wise). Yeah people hate on it and say its not pure tube...guess what i didnt have $2000 and i wanted some effects, my bad for trying to save some moneys. I only had $900 and i didn't want to buy a used peavey...or i would have. Plus the amps i use are Line 6's and a Mesa sim. The sims aren't the greatest but the insane channel is where its at. 

I would like to see line 6 set up make more legit amp sims, the ones they created are good, but i feel some not all of the other ones are a lil lacking. Granted i have not played through half of the actual amps it sims, its just nice to know that i can get a tone fairly close to the amps i cant afford.

I think line 6 should put their hand in high end market, but still make stuff for the uber noobies. But as of right now i would not compare anything they (with the exception of the vetta) make to the Axe. I haven't played though one but from the clips i have heard they are epic. Line 6 has to step it up in the algorithm game if they realllllly want to be competitive.


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## Rick (Aug 24, 2010)

If an "HD Pro" does come out, I will be picking up one of those.


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## Ben.Last (Aug 24, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> Most of the value of the axe-fx is fractal product support, ie, constant, frequent and FREE firmware updates, added amps, etc, etc.
> For now, when you bought a POD, you got something and that was it, what you got was what you kept and would keep forever.
> I haven't owned an axe for very long, but most long time owners seem to agree that the axe is much better sounding now than it was when first released.



Hasn't L6 been releasing firmware updates for the PODs? I'm pretty sure that the only reason there haven't been more advances in how it sounds is due to hardware limits (which, in turn, are due to the level of the units). Hopefully, with these, they've allowed themselves more wiggle room for the future.


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## b7string (Aug 24, 2010)

I have always found line6 tones to be akin to trying to make toast in a microwave. Whether you use a toaster or a micro-wave, you get warm bread either way, but somehow the micro-wave just doesn't give you the subtleties and textures of toasted bread.

Unless they make huge changes, I think it will just be another micro-wave.


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## Ben.Last (Aug 24, 2010)

b7string said:


> I have always found line6 tones to be akin to trying to make toast in a microwave. Whether you use a toaster or a micro-wave, you get warm bread either way, but somehow the micro-wave just doesn't give you the subtleties and textures of toasted bread.
> 
> Unless they make huge changes, I think it will just be another micro-wave.



I don't think the disparity is quite severe enough to merit that analogy.


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## Thep (Aug 24, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> I don't think the disparity is quite severe enough to merit that analogy.



It was clever though.


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## xCaptainx (Aug 24, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> I don't think the disparity is quite severe enough to merit that analogy.


 
haha true. Blindfolded, you wouldnt say that microwaved bread is '99% toasted' 

Actually, let's roll with that analogy. 

"I used to hate those brands of toasters, but I found out that my favourite band has started toasting their bread with them, so I'd love to try it out"

"yeah sure. it's toasted, but it doesnt have the same WARMTH as the other toaster"

"yeah the burn lines were crystal clear and had a suprising amount of depth behind them, nearly to the other side of the bread"

"ah you see, microwaves pre 1989 used a slightly different transistor, which created a slightly difference wave length. That's why your bread smells a bit different to the one on the Led Zed cd" 

I could go on


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## xCaptainx (Aug 24, 2010)

ok one more

SURE HE CAN TOAST AT 260 PBM (pieces of bread per minute) but can he do it with FEELING? I rest my case!


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## Variant (Aug 25, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> Hasn't L6 been releasing firmware updates for the PODs? I'm pretty sure that the only reason there haven't been more advances in how it sounds is due to hardware limits (which, in turn, are due to the level of the units). Hopefully, with these, they've allowed themselves more wiggle room for the future.



Yes, they have. There are significant differences between the same models from the XT and X3 lines, especially if you A/B them. It's not the "same ol', same ol'". 

You're totally right on the processing headroom thing though, not so much with the amps, but the convolutions of the cab/mic scenario, which take a lot floating point operations to calculate. I'm guessing this is the biggest gap between Line 6 and Fractal Audio. There's enough power for the M13 effects in the new HD, so I'm guessing that the chipset has been expanded to take on much more detailed convolutions. My hope is that you can load in third party impulses into the HD.


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## cyril v (Aug 25, 2010)

If they don't include the ability to load your own IR's, that'll be a strike against it, right off the bat. Obviously people love tweaking the hell out of their amps and effects, it should go without saying that they want just as much control over the cab sims.

/fingers crossed.


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## thesimo (Aug 26, 2010)

I don't know what I can add to benefit this discussion, but in my opinion, my pod XT Pro patches rival a tube amp very closely, and feel better to me as they're tight on the low B, where as I have found my amp is a little loose on the low B without boosting.

I just think a lot of people dismiss PODs without spending enough time playing with one to get a nice tone out of it.

So I'm sure as hell excited to see what this new HD series will sound like. I'm sure it will be a final nail in the valve coffin. People just don't like moving heavy stuff.


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## Rick (Aug 26, 2010)

thesimo said:


> I just think a lot of people dismiss PODs without spending enough time playing with one to get a nice tone out of it.



Yep.


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## AVWIII (Aug 26, 2010)

> Maybe someone will do a simulation that involves every capacitor, resistor, diode, triode and piece of wire in an amp, and give you options to "mod" it or replace "tubes" or "age" things, I mean if we can run weather simulations and brain simulations, why the hell not amps?
> You can have a "dumb" interface where you can only tweak the knobs on the front, then some users can click an "slightly-less-dumb" button that reveals the tubes which you can play with, then a "even-less-dumb" button that reveals bias, eventually to the metal composition of the wire that connects C31 to R10 at the 5th pin of the first push-pull pair of power tubes.
> You get the picture.


While it doesn't go as deep as wire composition, Peavey's revalver mkIII goes almost that deep. I'd highly recommend downloading the demo just to see how ridiculously detailed the editing can be.
The axe fx can also be modded very deep within each amp. I own one, but I rarely screw around with the "in amp" settings (power tube bias, screen resistors, tonestack settings etc.)


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## Andromalia (Aug 26, 2010)

Podfarm is certainly the software that took me the longest to get something out of it.


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## slapnutz (Aug 26, 2010)

silentrage said:


> Maybe someone will do a simulation that involves every capacitor, resistor, diode, triode and piece of wire in an amp, and give you options to "mod" it or replace "tubes" or "age" things, I mean if we can run weather simulations and brain simulations, why the hell not amps?
> You can have a "dumb" interface where you can only tweak the knobs on the front, then some users can click an "slightly-less-dumb" button that reveals the tubes which you can play with, then a "even-less-dumb" button that reveals bias, eventually to the metal composition of the wire that connects C31 to R10 at the 5th pin of the first push-pull pair of power tubes.
> You get the picture.


Peavey Revalver MkIII?

I thought users could change amp schematics in the software?

Eitherway, competition is always good. As long as company x can compete.

Just look at modern day gfx cards, they go for some great prices these days for what they deliver.


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## signalgrey (Aug 26, 2010)

thesimo said:


> I don't know what I can add to benefit this discussion, but in my opinion, my pod XT Pro patches rival a tube amp very closely, and feel better to me as they're tight on the low B, where as I have found my amp is a little loose on the low B without boosting.
> 
> I just think a lot of people dismiss PODs without spending enough time playing with one to get a nice tone out of it.
> 
> So I'm sure as hell excited to see what this new HD series will sound like. I'm sure it will be a final nail in the valve coffin. People just don't like moving heavy stuff.


 truth and repped.


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## Isan (Sep 7, 2010)

October 15th according to this site 
The HD300 ® * POD represents a huge step forward in the field of modeling amplifiers. This is the only multi-effects pedal to offer 16 amp models Line 6 high-definition (HD) over 80 modern and vintage effects from the range of processors M and I / O analog and digital full.
* The amp models are HD the new standard for modeling. They offer a gaming sensation, reaction, and interaction never reached. The realism is breathtaking and offers a quality of play so far unmatched.
* 16 amp models based HD guitar sounds the most coveted in the world: California clean sounds, sounds from classic crunch, mesmerizing heat amps Custom saturation unbridled modern amps, 128 user presets, 256 factory presets ...
* Over 80 effects: delay, modulation, distortion, compressors, equalizers, filters and reverbs. Up to 4 effects at the same time, tap tempo
* Player / Recorder loops with 24 seconds footswitches for specific functions of single reading configuration Pre / Post recording / overdub / stop / play
* Integrated Tuner with mute guitar signal
* Outputs 6.35mm Jack and XLR (mono / stereo) MIDI USB connector L6 LINK for full compatibility with tube amps from Line 6 line DT50 &#8482;; MP3/CD input and much more ...
* Free software for editing and managing sound libraries





# *HD400* POD ® represents a huge step forward in the field of modeling amplifiers. This is the only multi-effects pedal to offer 16 amp models Line 6 high-definition (HD) over 90 modern and vintage effects from the range of processors M and I / O analog and digital super complete.
# The amp models are HD the new standard for modeling. They offer a gaming sensation, reaction, and interaction never reached. The realism is breathtaking and offers a quality gaming hitherto unparalleled
# 16 amp models based HD guitar sounds the most coveted in the world: California clean sounds, sounds from classic crunch, mesmerizing heat amps Custom saturation unbridled modern amps, 128 user presets, 256 factory presets ...
# Over 90 effects: delay, modulation, distortion, compressors, equalizers, filters and reverbs. Up to 4 effects at the same time, tap tempo
# Player / Recorder loops with 24 seconds footswitches for specific functions of single reading configuration Pre / Post recording / overdub / stop / play
# Integrated Tuner with mute guitar signal
# Outputs 6.35mm Jack and XLR (mono / stereo), USB MIDI, effects loop (mono / stereo) input for expression pedal external connector L6 LINK for full compatibility with tube amps of Line 6 line DT50 &#8482; and much more ...
# Free software for editing and managing sound libraries



# POD ® *HD500* is a huge step forward in the field of modeling amplifiers. This is the only multi-effects pedal to offer 16 amp models Line 6 high-definition (HD), over 100 vintage and modern effects processors from the range M, and input / output analog and digital super complete.
# The amp models are HD the new standard for modeling. They offer a gaming sensation, reaction, and interaction never reached. The realism is breathtaking and offers a quality gaming hitherto unparalleled
# 16 amp models based HD guitar sounds the most coveted in the world: California clean sounds, sounds from classic crunch, mesmerizing heat amps Custom saturation unbridled modern amps, and more ...
# More than 100 effects: delay, modulation, distortion, compressors, equalizers, filters and reverbs. Up to 8 effects at the same time, tap tempo
# 512 user editable presets
# Player / Recorder loops with 48 seconds footswitches for specific functions of cancellation, reading single configuration Pre / Post recording / overdub, stop / playback, playback speed and mid- Reverse
# Integrated Tuner with mute guitar signal
# Outputs 6.35mm Jack and XLR (mono / stereo) MIDI In, Out / Thru, S / PDIF, USB LINK L6; effects loop (mono / stereo) Aux in Jack 6.35mm ; XLR microphone input with level control, headphone jack with 6.35 mm connector for Variax ® VDI, expression pedal input for external
# Free software for editing and managing sound libraries


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## Spinedriver (Sep 8, 2010)

I'm just wondering what the 16 amps will be... 

My guesses for what the amps will be:

Vox AC30
Fender Tweed Deluxe combo
Fender Bassman 4x10
Fender Blackface Reverb
(insert 4th Fender amp)
Marshall JTM45 combo
Marshall Super Lead
Marshall Plexi 100
Marshall JCM800
Marshall JCM2000 DSL
Mesa Boogie MK IIC+
Mesa Dual Rectifier
Soldano SLO-100
Bogner Uberschall
Peavey 5150

I know that's only 14, but those are what I think are the most likely candidates to make it onto the unit. It'd be nice to see maybe a Powerball or Framus Cobra but it's hard to say if they're 'popular' enough for the short list.


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## LordOVchaoS (Sep 9, 2010)

 Fender® Twin Reverb®
 Hiwatt® Custom 100 (DR103)
 Supro® S6616
 Gibson® EH-185
 Fender® Bassman®
 Fender® Blackface Deluxe Reverb®
 Divided by 13 JRT 9/15
 Dr. Z® Route 66
 Vox® AC-15
 Vox® AC-30 (Top Boost)
 Marshall® JTM-45 MkII
 Park 75
 Marshall® JCM-800 (2204)
 Bogner® Uberschall
 Mesa/Boogie® Dual Rectifier®
 ENGL® Fireball 100 <<<


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

LordOVchaoS said:


>  Fender® Twin Reverb®
>  Hiwatt® Custom 100 (DR103)
>  Supro® S6616
>  Gibson® EH-185
> ...


Is that official? No 5150/6505? Lame. They should ditch the AC-15 or Gibson and replace it with a 6505 and a SLO.


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## Andromalia (Sep 9, 2010)

Doubt it's official, as using the trademarks to identify the amps is likely a no-no.


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## LordOVchaoS (Sep 9, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> Doubt it's official, as using the trademarks to identify the amps is likely a no-no.



They have to do that to give the manufacturers their credit:

Amp & Cab Modeling | POD X3 | Line 6

1. "Wide panel" Fender® Deluxe Reverb®
2. Fender® Bassman®
3. Fender® Deluxe Reverb®
4. Vox® AC-30
5. Marshall® Super Lead
6. Marshall® Super Lead ("jumped" channels)
7. Roland® JC-120
8. Marshall® JCM-800
9. Soldano SLO-100
10. Mesa/Boogie® Dual Rectifier®
11. Marshall® 1974X (18W Reissue)
12. Orange AD30TC
13. L6 Treadplate
14. L6 Chemical X
15. L6 Insane
16. L6 Piezacoustic 2
17. L6 Spinal Puppet
18. L6 Tube Instrument Preamp
19. Bogner Uberschall
20. Cornford mk50h
21. Diezel VH4-Lead
22. Diezel Herbert
23. ENGL® Powerball
24. Marshall® Silver Jubilee
25. Marshall® JCM-900-Clean
26. Marshall® JCM-900-Dist
27. Marshall® JCM-2000
28. Mesa/Boogie® Triple Rectifier®
29. Peavey® 5150 II®
30. Bogner Ecstasy
31. Diezel VH4-Crunch
32. Fender® Vibroverb
33. Fender® Dual Showman® Head
34. Marshall® JMP-1
35. Vox® AC-15
36. Mesa/Boogie® Mark IIc+
37. Fender® Bassman® Head
38. Gretsch® 6156
39. Fender® Mini Twin Reverb®
40. Gibson® GA-18 Explorer®
41. Marshall® Super Bass
42. Marshall® Major
43. Silvertone® Twin Twelve
44. Supro® Thunderbolt
45. Vox® Fawn Non-Top Boost AC30
46. Dumble® Clean
47. Soldano SP88
48. Marshall® JCM 2000
49. Marshall® Super Lead Variac
50. Matchless DC-30
51. Blackface Fender® Twin Reverb®
52. Marshall® "Block Logo" JTM-45 head
53. Matchless Chieftain
54. Supro® S6616
55. Fender® Tweed Champ®
56. Hiwatt® DR-103
57. L6 Big Bottom
58. L6 Fuzz
59. L6 Octone
60. L6 Smash
61. L6 Sparkle Clean
62. L6 Throttle
63. L6 Clean
64. L6 Mood
65. L6 Agro
66. L6 Class A
67. L6 Variax Acoustic
68. L6 JTS 45
69. L6 Lunatic
70. L6 Bayou
71. L6 Crunch
72. L6 Purge
73. L6 Sparkle
74. L6 Super Clean
75. L6 SuperSpark
76. L6 Twang
77. L6 Chunk Chunk
78. Budda® Twinmaster 2x12 Combo

Guitar Cabinet Models based on*:

6x9 Supro® S6616
1x8 1961 Fender® Tweed Champ®
1x10 Gibson®
1x10 Gretsch® 6156
1x12 Line 6®
1x12 1953 Fender® Tweed Deluxe Reverb®
1x12 1964 Fender® Blackface Deluxe Reverb®
1x12 1960 Vox® AC-15
1x15 1962 Supro® Thunderbolt
2x2 Fender® Mini Twin Reverb®
2x12 Line 6® Fender®
2x12 1965 Fender® Blackface
2x12 1995 Matchless Chieftain
2x12 Roland® JC-120
2x12 1967 Vox®
2X12 1967 Silvertone® Twin Twelve
4x10 Line 6®
4x10 1959 Fender® Bassman®
4x12 Line 6® Marshall®
4x12 1967 Marshall® Basketweave with Greenbacks
4x12 1968 Marshall® Basketweave with Greenbacks
4x12 1978 Marshall® with stock 70s
4x12 1996 Marshall® with Vintage 30s
4x12 Mesa/Boogie®


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## Soopahmahn (Sep 9, 2010)

The phrase "based on" is what saves them. They have to give full credit, including trademarks where appropriate, to such names owned by the amp companies.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

I positively think this unit will be revolutionary and many Axe-Fx's may go up for sale based on the advertising/description by that Line 6 official.


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## LordOVchaoS (Sep 9, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> I positively think this unit will be revolutionary and many Axe-Fx's may go up for sale based on the advertising/description by that Line 6 official.



That would sure put a lot of money in my pocket


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

LordOVchaoS said:


> That would sure put a lot of money in my pocket



Think about it, the Axe-Fx is without a doubt the best processor on the market today, but it's heavily overpriced just because of the gap in the market. If these flood the scene (Line6 has way more funding and man power, it's not like they don't have the capability to make the equivalent of the Axe, or dare I say, a better unit) they will kill Fractal Audio in an instant. That is, if it's better. If it isn't, Fractal will thrive, until Line 6 comes out with something which is.

We all know who's going to win this race in the end though. It's like Microsoft going against Linux. And if this POD HD500 turns out to be what it's described to be like, it's curtains for Fractal. Axe-Fx's price will drop like panties off a well paid hooker since this thing is retailing for $400-500. Line 6 might have a reputation for 'selling out' and creating shit like Spiders, but if you think about it, they've never let us down in the processor market. They've been market leaders for ages now. The devices aren't only cheap, they're convenient (USB/FW/Mini-USB connections, tons of routing options etc.) and while the tone isn't as good as the Axe, they've done pretty well with the tones too.


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## biggness (Sep 9, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Think about it, the Axe-Fx is without a doubt the best processor on the market today, but it's heavily overpriced just because of the gap in the market. If these flood the scene (Line6 has way more funding and man power, it's not like they don't have the capability to make the equivalent of the Axe, or dare I say, a better unit) they will kill Fractal Audio in an instant. That is, if it's better. If it isn't, Fractal will thrive, until Line 6 comes out with something which is.
> 
> We all know who's going to win this race in the end though. It's like Microsoft going against Linux. And if this POD HD500 turns out to be what it's described to be like, it's curtains for Fractal. Axe-Fx's price will drop like panties off a well paid hooker since this thing is retailing for $400-500. Line 6 might have a reputation for 'selling out' and creating shit like Spiders, but if you think about it, they've never let us down in the processor market. They've been market leaders for ages now. The devices aren't only cheap, they're convenient (USB/FW/Mini-USB connections, tons of routing options etc.) and while the tone isn't as good as the Axe, they've done pretty well with the tones too.



      




























No one has heard this thing. NO ONE. So until then, you are falling victim to a marketing campaign.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

biggness said:


> No one has heard this thing. NO ONE. So until then, you are falling victim to a marketing campaign.



I know we haven't. We can very well expect it to be as good as it's being advertised to be though. They clearly haven't spent five+ years pussy footing about with this device. Line 6 aren't a bad company, and it's not like they've let us down in the processor department. They've clearly felt the heat from Fractal and are trying to put their foot in the door with this. I don't think they would try to generate the amount of hype that they are with this if it wasn't good. I mean come on, ads in guitar magazines saying 'The journey has just begun' with a link to a site to sign up for a mailing list? Not even an official photo of the device? Not even a list of the amp models?


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## TomAwesome (Sep 9, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Think about it, the Axe-Fx is without a doubt the best processor on the market today, but it's heavily overpriced just because of the gap in the market. If these flood the scene (Line6 has way more funding and man power, it's not like they don't have the capability to make the equivalent of the Axe, or dare I say, a better unit) they will kill Fractal Audio in an instant. That is, if it's better. If it isn't, Fractal will thrive, until Line 6 comes out with something which is.
> 
> We all know who's going to win this race in the end though. It's like Microsoft going against Linux. And if this POD HD500 turns out to be what it's described to be like, it's curtains for Fractal. Axe-Fx's price will drop like panties off a well paid hooker since this thing is retailing for $400-500. Line 6 might have a reputation for 'selling out' and creating shit like Spiders, but if you think about it, they've never let us down in the processor market. They've been market leaders for ages now. The devices aren't only cheap, they're convenient (USB/FW/Mini-USB connections, tons of routing options etc.) and while the tone isn't as good as the Axe, they've done pretty well with the tones too.



I don't think it's that simple. Line 6 and Fractal aren't really in direct competition with each other. They're in different sectors of the market. Fractal is the high end "boutique" type product, and Line 6 sells low to mid range products. The only product Line 6 has ever had in the market that Fractal currently occupies is the Vetta, and they haven't made those for some time now. This could potentially be troublesome for Fractal if the new modeling was on par with the Axe-FX, but given the prices these things are listed at, I just don't think they've got the processing power for it. This means that both companies will continue to do well in their respective markets.


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## biggness (Sep 9, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> I know we haven't. We can very well expect it to be as good as it's being advertised to be though. They clearly haven't spent five+ years pussy footing about with this device. Line 6 aren't a bad company, and it's not like they've let us down in the processor department. They've clearly felt the heat from Fractal and are trying to put their foot in the door with this. I don't think they would try to generate the amount of hype that they are with this if it wasn't good. I mean come on, ads in guitar magazines saying 'The journey has just begun' with a link to a site to sign up for a mailing list? Not even an official photo of the device? Not even a list of the amp models?



That is marketing 101, pal.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> I don't think it's that simple. Line 6 and Fractal aren't really in direct competition with each other. They're in different sectors of the market. Fractal is the high end "boutique" type product, and Line 6 sells low to mid range products. The only product Line 6 has ever had in the market that Fractal currently occupies is the Vetta, and they haven't made those for some time now. This could potentially be troublesome for Fractal if the new modeling was on par with the Axe-FX, but given the prices these things are listed at, I just don't think they've got the processing power for it. This means that both companies will continue to do well in their respective markets.



Maybe they weren't in the past, but if this turns out to be what it's said to be, they're right up Fractal's alley. Just because a piece of equipment costs more doesn't make it any more 'boutique'. If it turns out to be better, or even in the same ball park - people will buy it and the Axe-Fx _will_ suffer, because people will be getting better/similar tones for a fraction of the price with much better I/O/routing etc etc. options.

For example, how many people have you seen on ss.org GAS'ing for an Axe, saving up money and all that to get their most coveted piece of gear? If it's better, it'd be a no brainer to keep the $1500 change and pick up a POD HD500. 

They've even hinted at a rack unit. But then again, nothing definitive can be said until this thing has been heard and we know what kind of tech we're dealing with. Apparently they've patented a brand new tech for amp sim'ing which is supposed to blow everything out of the water. We might even get an external IR loader. Who knows what it's capable of.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 9, 2010)

Why are you so sure that the POD HD will be able to compare? The Axe-FX isn't boutique because it's expensive; it's expensive because it's boutique. It's a high quality product with powerful hardware. I can't see a $300 piece of gear (that's what the cheapest one will go for, right?) being capable of running algorithms that could give the Axe-FX a real run for its money. I look forward to hearing it, and I hope it sounds fantastic, but I see no reason at this point to believe that it will be on par with the Axe-FX.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> Why are you so sure that the POD HD will be able to compare? The Axe-FX isn't boutique because it's expensive; it's expensive because it's boutique. It's a high quality product with powerful hardware. I can't see a $300 piece of gear (that's what the cheapest one will go for, right?) being capable of running algorithms that could give the Axe-FX a real run for its money. I look forward to hearing it, and I hope it sounds fantastic, but I see no reason at this point to believe that it will be on par with the Axe-FX.



And that's a completely logical argument and I wouldn't argue with you on that. How much do you think the raw components of an Axe cost though?


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## LordOVchaoS (Sep 9, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> And that's a completely logical argument and I wouldn't argue with you on that. How much do you think the raw components of an Axe cost though?



This is a good point, electronics parts are cheap. Even the highest quality ones. Also worth noting is Line 6's buying power. They could buy all the components of an Axe-FX for probably around half price. When you buy 10's of 1000's of parts as opposed to 100's at a time, you get shit CHEAP!!!


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 9, 2010)

Another thing to consider is if Line 6 priced these in the AxeFx range, no one would even look at them, as the AxeFx has proven it's price. Line 6 needs to price these cheap to get the word out of their new modeling technology. If it's like anything else Line 6 we'll probably see a somewhat pricier rack version. 

I'm not saying these new POD HDs are going to be on par with the AxeFx, or even better than the current POD fair, but regarding price it's in Line 6s best interest to make these immediately affordable.


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## biggness (Sep 9, 2010)

The AD/DA converters and TIGERsharc are the most expensive pieces of the Axe. I read that the converters used in the Axe are on par with even the most prestigious of studio equipment. I will see if I can dig up the exact ones used. I looked them up a while ago, and the where not cheap at all.  

Plus the whole Made in the USA is an expensive thing...


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## Soopahmahn (Sep 9, 2010)

biggness said:


> The AD/DA converters and TIGERsharc are the most expensive pieces of the Axe. I read that the converters used in the Axe are on par with even the most prestigious of studio equipment. I will see if I can dig up the exact ones used. I looked them up a while ago, and the where not cheap at all.
> 
> Plus the whole Made in the USA is an expensive thing...



This.

Also, Cliff has spent probably thousands of hours on the _code_ for these models. They are not simply impulses. To believe that Line6 has put the kind of time in to component model all of these amps (the only real way to achieve this kind of realism as best I can tell) and is then going to toss it on the market for 300 bucks is absurdly naive. It will be a cheap box made with cheap parts and some probably good, but not great sounding models. It's like comparing a VOX Valvetronix to a vintage VOX. Just not the same.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 9, 2010)

Soopahmahn said:


> This.
> 
> Also, Cliff has spent probably thousands of hours on the _code_ for these models. They are not simply impulses. To believe that Line6 has put the kind of time in to component model all of these amps (the only real way to achieve this kind of realism as best I can tell) and is then going to toss it on the market for 300 bucks is absurdly naive. It will be a cheap box made with cheap parts and some probably good, but not great sounding models. It's like comparing a VOX Valvetronix to a vintage VOX. Just not the same.



Line 6 can afford to toss it on the market for $300 (it's for more than that, approaching $550). Fractal Audio can't, because they are a tiny company. This is new technology which Line 6 have patented, maybe it replicates an amp without the use of expensive components. I love how you pass judgment on it in the end based on it's price or the company it comes from. Line 6 isn't a bad company by any stretch of the imagination and professional records continue to be produced using their products. If it was priced at $1200, would it make you think differently?

I find it hard to believe that the Axe-Fx, when broken down to the raw essential hardware components is priced anywhere near $2200, at the most (pushing it) i'd expect the components to be worth $500. So if you're being charged $1.7k for some ampsims, impulses and some (dubious) code, that's your choice. I think consumers shouldn't give in to that sort of ridiculous pricing for a piece of digital rack mount gear and force the price down. Things like the POD HD500 will achieve that if it turns out to be good.


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## biggness (Sep 9, 2010)

The AD/DA converters were knocking on $1000 a piece a lil over a year ago. So take that into account, along with the other hardware, then facture in the idea that Cliff probably bought some stuff in bulk, so the parts where more than likely cheaper, and it still comes out to a good chunk of change, just for the hardware. I remember reading that Cliff only makes about a $200 dollar profit on each unit sold. Albeit, that was a while ago, and he probably has the means to purchase in bigger quantities now, thus lowering the hardware costs, some. 

If Line 6 has truly been working on this for 5+ years, that would date it before the AxeFx. It would have to be something truly groundbreaking to throw some wrenches in the gears of Fractal.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 9, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> I find it hard to believe that the Axe-Fx, when broken down to the raw essential hardware components is priced anywhere near $2200, at the most (pushing it) i'd expect the components to be worth $500. So if you're being charged $1.7k for some ampsims, impulses and some (dubious) code, that's your choice. I think consumers shouldn't give in to that sort of ridiculous pricing for a piece of digital rack mount gear and force the price down. Things like the POD HD500 will achieve that if it turns out to be good.



They can charge whatever they want, as the AxeFx has proven it can replace enough gear to make the $2000 (or $1500 if you go for the Standard) seem like a bargain. They need not low ball themselves because the hardware they use doesn't make up the bulk of the unit's cost.

Look at guitars. Do you really think the woods, hardware, etc. really cost as much as $3000? How about $2000? It's not the materials, it's what goes into making those materials sound amazing. Something the guys at Fractal have done MUCH better than Line 6. I'm not hating on Line 6. I love my PODs, but they simply aren't on the same level as Fractal and the price reflects that. 

As for "ridiculous pricing for a piece of digital rack mount gear" have you been in a real studio? Look at how much Eventide rack gear goes for. Look at rack effects in general. They're not cheap.


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## biggness (Sep 9, 2010)

Alright, the AxeFx uses 118db 24-bit Cirrus Logic AD/DA converters. Particularly the CS5394 model(I think), plus an evaluation board, if I am right. The price of that is, roughly, $800 bucks. That is still a chunk of change and that is just for one piece of the puzzle. Factor in about, I don't know, a 15% discount for buying in bulk, and that is still $680 a pop. Remember, this is just for one piece, not including the tigerSHARC, which roughly comes in to around $300 smackers, plus all the "little" extra stuff I don't have the time to research.  You can see that the AxeFx is priced fairly. All this is just for the hardware, not counting the _thousands of hours_ Cliff has put into developing the code. 

Now, Line 6, they are a large company, yes, but I seriously doubt that they would get even close to a 50% discount for buying massive quantities. Keep in mind that the companies they are buying from have to make a dollar as well. If they did get the 50% discount, that would still put the hardware cost of the two items I just listed at $450. I just don't see this adding up.


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## TemjinStrife (Sep 9, 2010)

Soopahmahn said:


> This.
> 
> Also, Cliff has spent probably thousands of hours on the _code_ for these models. They are not simply impulses. To believe that Line6 has put the kind of time in to component model all of these amps (the only real way to achieve this kind of realism as best I can tell) and is then going to toss it on the market for 300 bucks is absurdly naive. It will be a cheap box made with cheap parts and some probably good, but not great sounding models. It's like comparing a VOX Valvetronix to a vintage VOX. Just not the same.



I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a bit.

Line6 can afford to spend thousands of hours on the code for each model. They have a larger team at their disposal and they have consistent income from their enormous market penetration and distribution as well as enormous buying power to get components in bulk at a very affordable price.

Because of their vast economies of scale, they can afford to amortize the "startup costs" as it were over a much larger group of units, and can afford to operate on a lower profit margin if they think they need to price aggressively to compete.

Also you can't reasonably assume it will be a "cheap box with cheap parts and some probably good, but not great sounding models" since no one's heard it yet 

I realize I am arguing against the curve here as Line 6 is thought of pretty negatively here, and Fractal has become "God's gift to guitarists." But, I've gotten thousands of hours of use out of my PODxt, my old LD300, and a DL4 in many applications, and they have all been rock-solid, so I am less negatively biased than some. 

Is the Axe-FX an awesome unit? Yes it is. I've played with one. Hell, I've played cello through one. It was awesome and pretty fun. If I didn't have the amps I had now, which fulfill my needs and then some, I'd probably want one.

Regardless, you can't reasonably write off Line 6's offering as utter crap based solely on the price point (which is a gap consistent with the gap between other types of US-made and offshore-made gear, and the quality gap with some good QC is closing in that regard too) and your personal feelings for either unit or company. 

Line 6 has the resources to make an excellent unit at a good price. Let's hope that they succeed, because I think a lower-priced competitor to Fractal would be good competition for all parties involved, and provide ever better modeling gear for us guitarists to play with.


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## Soopahmahn (Sep 9, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a bit.
> 
> Line6 can afford to spend thousands of hours on the code for each model. They have a larger team at their disposal and they have consistent income from their enormous market penetration and distribution as well as enormous buying power to get components in bulk at a very affordable price.
> 
> ...



You trolled me back in here, Josh.  

I'm not writing the unit off as crap, but if it's going to be $300, it's not going to have great hardware in it. That means I/O converters and jacks, processors, etc. They may be good, but they won't be great. And unless Line6 is willing to reconsider their entire paradigm and throw away all of the intellectual capital they've built themselves as far as how to model guitar tones (which, by the way, is awesome in my opinion ) they're not going to be doing the same level of modeling that Fractal is up to.

And I, for one, am fully on board with you that more competition is more better. As I said in... the other place... the more competition Fractal has in the modeler world from the lower and middle segments of the market, the more firmly they will be held to the highest standards/be forced to reduce prices. When comparing $300 to $1500, if the new POD HD500 or whatever can offer even 90% of the performance in terms of subjective pleasure with the tones and routability/ease of use/quantity of effects, it's an easy sell to a lot of people to keep $1200 in their pockets.

Fractal won't be kings of guitar modeling forever. They're really quite privileged right now, and Line6 may in fact unsettle them a bit with this. Rocktron and DigiTech are probably gunning for them too, though.


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## Andii (Sep 9, 2010)

No matter how much the components cost, line6 is so big that they can make whatever they need themselves and have the components at cost. Also "at cost" will be lower since it will be 100% from china.

It could go either way as far as sound. There is no good argument for saying it will definitely go either way at this point.


If it sounds 95% accurate and has a 5150 model and can load impulses, I'm sold. The odds of that are unknown.


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## biggness (Sep 9, 2010)

Andii said:


> No matter how much the components cost, line6 is so big that they can make whatever they need themselves and have the components at cost. Also "at cost" will be lower since it will be 100% from china.
> 
> It could go either way as far as sound. There is no good argument for saying it will definitely go either way at this point.
> 
> ...


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## Andii (Sep 9, 2010)

biggness said:


>



I don't get it.


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## Jzbass25 (Sep 9, 2010)

I feel like line 6 cant make anything that will even come close to the Axe-fx even if they do try and directly compete.


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## Variant (Sep 9, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> Why are you so sure that the POD HD will be able to compare? The Axe-FX isn't boutique because it's expensive; it's expensive because it's boutique. It's a high quality product with powerful hardware. I can't see a $300 piece of gear (that's what the cheapest one will go for, right?) being capable of running algorithms that could give the Axe-FX a real run for its money. I look forward to hearing it, and I hope it sounds fantastic, but I see no reason at this point to believe that it will be on par with the Axe-FX.



LOL... it's not "boutique" because it's "boutique".  It's "boutique" because its from a *small company*, with more overhead costs, and thus is a lot pricier. Saying it's better on that merit alone is like saying that some $5000 boutique amp sounds better than a 5150/6505 because every last component is top notch, yet a shitload of people keep plugging into the good ol' 5150/6505... because it sounds fucking great. I'm willing to bet you that given access to the software, Line 6 could build the same unit through it's usual cheep-ass methods, to its usual higher volumes, for hundreds of dollars less. 

Sure, just about every component is higher quality, but as someone over at the Sneep forums was pointing out, the chipset in the Axe/Fx isn't all that much more powerful than the one in the X3, and the HD will have more processing power than that. Like I said before, unlike the world of analog, once you're past the A/D converter's it's all programming mojo... shit, there are *FREE* modeling plug-ins that approach, if not meet, the sound quality of some *VERY* expensive ones. Frankly, you could get one of these: Open Labs SoundSlate for the same price as and Axe/Fx and load whatever the fuck you wanted into it.  The real question for me is, where the fuck is an Axe/Fx VST?  TBH, I agree that their shit sounds utterly great, but I don't need to spend $2000 on what boils down to being the *THEIR* computer to host it.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 9, 2010)

Variant said:


> LOL... it's not "boutique" because it's "boutique".  It's "boutique" because its from a *small company*, with more overhead costs, and thus is a lot pricier.



Fair enough, though the word is kind of beside the point, anyway. 



Variant said:


> Saying it's better on that merit alone is like saying that some $5000 boutique amp sounds better than a 5150/6505 because every last component is top notch, yet a shitload of people keep plugging into the good ol' 5150/6505... because it sounds fucking great. I'm willing to bet you that given access to the software, Line 6 could build the same unit through it's usual cheep-ass methods, to its usual higher volumes, for hundreds of dollars less.



That's not what I was saying, and I'm not sure that analogy quite works. I don't recall anyone saying the new Line 6 stuff was going to suck. Hell, XTs will still be plugged into, because they still sound good. 5150s rock, but that doesn't mean there won't still be a lot of people who still prefer a Soldano.




Variant said:


> Sure, just about every component is higher quality, but as someone over at the Sneep forums was pointing out, the chipset in the Axe/Fx isn't all that much more powerful than the one in the X3, and the HD will have more processing power than that. Like I said before, unlike the world of analog, once you're past the A/D converter's it's all programming mojo... shit, there are *FREE* modeling plug-ins that approach, if not meet, the sound quality of some *VERY* expensive ones. Frankly, you could get one of these: Open Labs SoundSlate for the same price as and Axe/Fx and load whatever the fuck you wanted into it.  The real question for me is, where the fuck is an Axe/Fx VST?  TBH, I agree that their shit sounds utterly great, but I don't need to spend $2000 on what boils down to being the *THEIR* computer to host it.



Is there really that little of a difference? I thought those TigerSHARCs were supposed to be pretty powerful and kind of pricey. There was supposed to be a VST version, but I think it has been put on the back burner for other things like the foot controller and the upcoming effects-only version.


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## TemjinStrife (Sep 9, 2010)

Variant said:


> LOL... it's not "boutique" because it's "boutique".  It's "boutique" because its from a *small company*, with more overhead costs, and thus is a lot pricier. Saying it's better on that merit alone is like saying that some $5000 boutique amp sounds better than a 5150/6505 because every last component is top notch, yet a shitload of people keep plugging into the good ol' 5150/6505... because it sounds fucking great. I'm willing to bet you that given access to the software, Line 6 could build the same unit through it's usual cheep-ass methods, to its usual higher volumes, for hundreds of dollars less.
> 
> Sure, just about every component is higher quality, but as someone over at the Sneep forums was pointing out, the chipset in the Axe/Fx isn't all that much more powerful than the one in the X3, and the HD will have more processing power than that. Like I said before, unlike the world of analog, once you're past the A/D converter's it's all programming mojo... shit, there are *FREE* modeling plug-ins that approach, if not meet, the sound quality of some *VERY* expensive ones. Frankly, you could get one of these: Open Labs SoundSlate for the same price as and Axe/Fx and load whatever the fuck you wanted into it.  The real question for me is, where the fuck is an Axe/Fx VST?  TBH, I agree that their shit sounds utterly great, but I don't need to spend $2000 on what boils down to being the *THEIR* computer to host it.



You know, I don't often agree with you, Variant. But I think you've hit the nail on the head 100% here. 

Hell, for $500 I can have a Mac Mini that smokes the AFX in terms of processing power and memory capacity, and has the capability of attaching nearly anything with a USB cord as a controller.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 9, 2010)

It's not like that $2000 is solely hardware cost. It's the time Cliff put into making it, putting high end effects into it, and the (free) continued support. Send a schematic to Line 6 and see if that gets you your amp into the Pod 

How many firmware updates to the Pod has there been in the time Cliff has gone from 1.0 to 10.02?


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## cyril v (Sep 9, 2010)

LordOVchaoS said:


> &#8226; Fender® Twin Reverb®
> &#8226; Hiwatt® Custom 100 (DR103)
> &#8226; Supro® S6616
> &#8226; Gibson® EH-185
> ...



Where'd this list come from? Any links confirming this?



TemjinStrife said:


> You know, I don't often agree with you, Variant. But I think you've hit the nail on the head 100% here.
> 
> Hell, for $500 I can have a Mac Mini that smokes the AFX in terms of processing power and memory capacity, and has the capability of attaching nearly anything with a USB cord as a controller.



Processing power of a regular computer vs specialized hardware is not going to be comparable just by crunching numbers. 



Variant said:


> LOL... it's not "boutique" because it's "boutique".  It's "boutique" because its from a *small company*, with more overhead costs, and thus is a lot pricier. Saying it's better on that merit alone is like saying that some $5000 boutique amp sounds better than a 5150/6505 because every last component is top notch, yet a shitload of people keep plugging into the good ol' 5150/6505... because it sounds fucking great. I'm willing to bet you that given access to the software, Line 6 could build the same unit through it's usual cheep-ass methods, to its usual higher volumes, for hundreds of dollars less.
> 
> Sure, just about every component is higher quality, but as someone over at the Sneep forums was pointing out, the chipset in the Axe/Fx isn't all that much more powerful than the one in the X3, and the HD will have more processing power than that. Like I said before, unlike the world of analog, once you're past the A/D converter's it's all programming mojo... shit, there are *FREE* modeling plug-ins that approach, if not meet, the sound quality of some *VERY* expensive ones. Frankly, you could get one of these: Open Labs SoundSlate for the same price as and Axe/Fx and load whatever the fuck you wanted into it.  *The real question for me is, where the fuck is an Axe/Fx VST?*  TBH, I agree that their shit sounds utterly great, but I don't need to spend $2000 on what boils down to being the *THEIR* computer to host it.




The VST is finished according to Zimbloths' info from his visit with Cliff... just waiting for something, unless I misread his post (I was drunk when I read that thread).

I'm more interested in the VST to be honest, and the POD HD, as long as it's got more options than the current POD, then I'm definitely interested. I've come to the conclusion that $2k is out of my comfort range for buying something that purely modeling other amps, though the effects do seem to be more compelling. But with that said, theres also talk of the standalone effects unit from Fractal, which would suit me better.


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## Spinedriver (Sep 9, 2010)

One thing to also note is that the Axe-Fx has 70 or so models on it and the new Pod will have 16. As for the $500 (or so) price point, when you factor in the inevitable 'add on packs' at $100 a pop, it'll bring the price closer to a grand.

Will it match the quality of the Fractal unit, more than likely not because I don't think the average Pod user is interested in tweaking bias voltages, "tube sag" values, etc... so I can't see those features making into the HD units. So in that respect, the Pod will not have that level of versatility. However if you were to remove those options out of the Axe-Fx unit, there's at least a possibility that the new Line 6 models could come very close to the quality of the Fractal ones.

I guess we won't know for sure until they actually hit the streets but it would be a huge step for the Pod if it actually is almost as good as the Axe-Fx (sound wise) even though it only has 1/4 of the models and none of the 'fine tuning' options of the Axe-Fx. Then again, the Pod's only going to be 1/3 of the price (roughly) so it does kind of balance out.

Axe-Fx= Super tweakability and 70+ models along with the insane routing options. Price - $1,200 +

Pod HD= Basic amp functions, 16 models, and limited routing options. Price= $500 (estimated street price)

So in the end you'll get what you pay for regardless. It's just a matter of whether the new amp sims are going to make people want to ditch their existing Pods for the new one. If yes, then Fractal will have some competition for those who can't afford the Axe-Fx or are intimidated by all the features. If not, it'll just cement Line 6's position as company marketing to beginner/intermediate players but not pro-level.


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## Cancer (Sep 10, 2010)

Food for thought.....so I found this pic of the Pod HD599 online ..







If you blow up the picture (option,apple,8 then option,apple,+ to zoom)a little and look at the display, you notice a couple things:

a. The chain config looks alot like how the chain can be config'd in the Roland GT-10. This would be awesome ....were not the GT-10 like, oh I dunno 5 years old.

b. In the upper chain, there's a triangle pointing downward to what looks like a pedal icon, this icon precedes what looks like an amp icon. Pretty sure this means that amp and cabinet models aren't separated, which makes this device worthless to me. Gutar Rig, splits them, Revalver, and of the AxeFx, so why not Line 6. So much for that "Axefx level" chain control I was hoping for. This almost kills using the harmonizer. Sure you could have a shifted note go 100% into an amp model, but it's not ideal.

c. The 300 and 400 look like Spiders in a floorboard form. I like the spiders series, but it's tweakability is limited.

Bottom line, it looks like they added amp models to the M13 series. Great idea, but I feel like I've outgrown it already, and it hasn't even been released yet.


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## LordOVchaoS (Sep 10, 2010)

cyril v said:


> Where'd this list come from? Any links confirming this?



The link is gone, including the rest of the info about the HD series on the Line 6 site. It was up there briefly and the models are mentioned a few times in the Line 6 forum, and on The Gear Page.



cyril v said:


> Processing power of a regular computer vs specialized hardware is not going to be comparable just by crunching numbers.



Even Cliff has confirmed that the Axe-FX software can be ran solely on a mid-grade computer. When there was heated talks of Axe-PC I know my computer fit the specs mentioned, and my computer is a 6 year old dell


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## cyril v (Sep 10, 2010)

LordOVchaoS said:


> The link is gone, including the rest of the info about the HD series on the Line 6 site. It was up there briefly and the models are mentioned a few times in the Line 6 forum, and on The Gear Page.




I see on the gearpage where the rep all but confirms it accidentally, awesome.



> Even Cliff has confirmed that the Axe-FX software can be ran solely on a mid-grade computer. When there was heated talks of Axe-PC I know my computer fit the specs mentioned, and my computer is a 6 year old dell



I'm not saying your computer won't be able to run it, I'm just pointing out that you normally don't want to run around comparing specs like that... My point was that if you have a computer from the 90's that had a 600mhz processor and 24mb of ram, you would not be running a decent DAW let alone AxeFX on it. (Thats AxeFx's specs btw). blah blah, specialized hardware/coding and all that jazz.

Eleven Rack = dual DSP [Archive] - The Gear Page



Spinedriver said:


> One thing to also note is that the Axe-Fx has 70 or so models on it and the new Pod will have 16. As for the $500 (or so) price point, when you factor in the inevitable 'add on packs' at $100 a pop, it'll bring the price closer to a grand.
> 
> Will it match the quality of the Fractal unit, more than likely not because I don't think the average Pod user is interested in tweaking bias voltages, "tube sag" values, etc... so I can't see those features making into the HD units. So in that respect, the Pod will not have that level of versatility. However if you were to remove those options out of the Axe-Fx unit, there's at least a possibility that the new Line 6 models could come very close to the quality of the Fractal ones.
> 
> ...



Actually if those specs/lists are correct, you would have the 16 *AMPs* (I'm assuming multiple channels here) and 70 effects for $325.


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## Emperoff (Sep 10, 2010)

One thing is for sure. It will probably be better than the actual PODs. So even though it won't be as good as the Axe it will probably sound good and will sell a truckload, as every POD they have released (even if the updates were negligible).


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

Just a little Devil's Advocate. 



Cancer said:


> a. The chain config looks alot like how the chain can be config'd in the Roland GT-10. This would be awesome ....were not the GT-10 like, oh I dunno 5 years old.



So what's wrong with having an easy and effective editing method, regardless of age? Half the amps being modeled on these things are older than most forum member here and I don't see any complaining there. I've played around with the GT-10 and thought it's editing menus were very intuitive, something I can't say about most processors I've used.



> b. In the upper chain, there's a triangle pointing downward to what looks like a pedal icon, this icon precedes what looks like an amp icon. Pretty sure this means that amp and cabinet models aren't separated, which makes this device worthless to me. Gutar Rig, splits them, Revalver, and of the AxeFx, so why not Line 6. So much for that "Axefx level" chain control I was hoping for. This almost kills using the harmonizer. Sure you could have a shifted note go 100% into an amp model, but it's not ideal.



For all we know as soon as you click on the amp icon you can scroll through a myriad of option including the disabling of cab sims, configuration of cab sims, etc. 

Other Line 6 products give you the option of disabling cab sims, so I'd be really surprised if it didn't find it's way to this device. 



> c. The 300 and 400 look like Spiders in a floorboard form. I like the spiders series, but it's tweakability is limited.



Based on a single shot of the effects chain menu?



> Bottom line, it looks like they added amp models to the M13 series. Great idea, but I feel like I've outgrown it already, and it hasn't even been released yet.



They've kinda said as much as that, they've loaded the M13, the four button effectors, and then a new, upgraded POD into these. 

Listen, for all I know, or should I saw we know unless you're holding out on us lol, is that this thing is going to have all the faults you have, none of the faults as I've said, or a combination of the two. I think you're putting a lot more emphasis on a single, small shot of the screen, which for all we know was just a mocked up/generated image made just for promotional purposes. 

Let's wait before the thing is released before we start calling it antiquated, featureless, and useless.


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## splinter8451 (Sep 10, 2010)

here is the 400 and 300, they look pretty cool to me. I hope they didn't just cram the spiders into a floorboard  even though the new Spiders do sound pretty good.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

I think what's scaring people is that they're [Line 6] using a LOT of the hardware of the Spider series (Knobs, Controls, Displays, etc.) and giving it an aesthetic that's closer to the Spiders than anything else.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 10, 2010)

I kind of like how they look. They look like something between a more mature POD X3 and a proper MIDI board.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> I kind of like how they look. They look like something between a more mature POD X3 and a proper MIDI board.





Also, looking at how the foot switches are labeled (on the 500) it appears they'll be fully assignable, as in any switchable parameter can be assigned to any switch. 

I'd love to see what the I/O's look like.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Also, looking at how the foot switches are labeled (on the 500) it appears they'll be fully assignable, as in any switchable parameter can be assigned to any switch.
> 
> I'd love to see what the I/O's look like.



Just from the connectibility stand point, FW, USB, Mini-USB, SPDIF, standard 1/4 outs.

Also, to the person above - the cabinet and amp models are separate. You can turn the cab off, and they've hinted at an IR loader.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Just from the connectibility stand point, FW, USB, Mini-USB, SPDIF, standard 1/4 outs.



Shoot! I was hoping for a MIDI and relay switch, and possibly a loop, but I guess that's pretty foolish at the price point these are aimed for.


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## Marv Attaxx (Sep 10, 2010)

As long as it has an improved big bottom patch I'll get this thing


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Shoot! I was hoping for a MIDI and relay switch, and possibly a loop, but I guess that's pretty foolish at the price point these are aimed for.



Oops, I missed out MIDI - and I'm pretty much sure it has a loop too. Again, I don't see why things need to be pricey to be good/have features.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Oops, I missed out MIDI - and I'm pretty much sure it has a loop too. Again, I don't see why things need to be pricey to be good/have features.



I'm not saying that it's price is the reason it wouldn't have those features, but considering a lot of more expensive units sometimes don't have those facilities, I was just implying that I may be asking too much out of a unit meant mostly for modeling opposed to rig integration. 

Just curious, where are you getting your info? Is there a thread on the Line 6 forums your reading, or on another board?


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm not saying that it's price is the reason it wouldn't have those features, but considering a lot of more expensive units sometimes don't have those facilities, I was just implying that I may be asking too much out of a unit meant mostly for modeling opposed to rig integration.
> 
> Just curious, where are you getting your info? Is there a thread on the Line 6 forums your reading, or on another board?



I'm in contact with some (well, one) L6 engineer on this. I'm not trying to sell their product or anything though.

Here's exactly what the I/O's look like on the HD500 (current model):

-MIDI: In, Out/Thru
-S/PDIF
-FX Loop (Mono/Stereo)
-XLR Microphone Input (Possibly some powered stuff going on here with the -higher end models) (Mono/Stereo)
-USB/Mini USB/ Line 6 Link
- Aux in (6.35mm)
- 6.35mm output
- External expression pedal input
- Standard I/O's
- Variax Input
- Headphone jack

There's also some fancy stuff going on with the MIDI/USB which will use some sort of software to load/edit/save banks/presets in real time.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

I don't know much else about it other than that it will be on par or better than the Axe-Fx on terms of processing power and tone etc. and that they have an Axe in house for this purpose or have had a close look at one to make sure it is. And also there are hints towards IR loading (two cabs simultaneously) with dual tones


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

Would you happen to know if the amp list posted earlier is accurate?


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## TomAwesome (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> I don't know much else about it other than that it will be on par or better than the Axe-Fx on terms of processing power and tone etc



They told you this?


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## Rick (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> And also there are hints towards IR loading (two cabs simultaneously) with dual tones



Rick approves.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> They told you this?



Not exactly in those words, but in a roundabout way they said it'd be a competitor or that 'they would hope' it's even better.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Would you happen to know if the amp list posted earlier is accurate?



Nope, that's all I know, and that's all I'll ever know judging from how I was told not to poke into it anymore because I wouldn't get anything else. I just wanted to know about the IR loading personally. It does have an ENGL sim though. I have no idea what amp it is, but I'd go Powerball/Fireball.

EDIT: I don't know how this is going to work, but the number of amps is supposed to 'increase over time'. I'd bet on it being in the form of purchasable packs like Metal Shop etc.

EDIT 2: I've never used POD's native stuff, always used impulses with Pod Farm at best but somehow I'm expecting a lot from this thing.


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## biggness (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> *I don't know much else about it other than that it will be on par or better than the Axe-Fx on terms of processing power and tone etc. and that they have an Axe in house for this purpose or have had a close look at one to make sure it is.* And also there are hints towards IR loading (two cabs simultaneously) with dual tones



You have any links to back up this claim? I do, and it doesn't line up with what you are saying. 



Cliff posted on thegearpage said:


> I won't speculate on the quality of the HD vs. the Axe-Fx. However, I will offer this about the DSP's:
> 
> The newest Analog Devices SHARC processor is the 214xx family. The fastest model runs at 450 MHz. They claim it does 2.7 GFLOP/s vs. the TigerSHARCS 3.6 GFLOP/s.
> 
> ...


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## silentrage (Sep 10, 2010)

Even though I just bought an axe fx, I think this is still good news, it'll push fractal, and other companies to develop even better modeling technology, and everyone gets cool toys to play with, for cheaper.


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## biggness (Sep 10, 2010)

Also, this whole Line 6 buying in bulk vs AxeFx buying in bulk... 



Originally Posted by RRClassic on thegearpage said:


> Well, you have to consider that Axe is a one man show which means he cannot afford to buy bits and pieces at bulk discount...
> This is not true. We've grown to a decent size company but that's irrelevant. Almost all manufacturers nowadays use Contract Manufacturers (CM). By using a CM you get the buying power of a large corporation because that one manufacturer buys parts for many products and therefore gets quantity pricing.





Cliff on thegearpage said:


> The Axe-Fx is expensive not because of the lack of buying power, but because of the quality of the components contained within. The op-amps we use are over $1 each in large quantities. Contrast that to the cheap TL-074's that "consumer grade" gear uses at 10 cents each. The coupling capacitors are film types. The preset memory is battery-backed rather than FLASH so that you don't have to wait 10 seconds to save a preset and no worrying about sector wear-out. Etc., etc., etc.
> 
> Furthermore, the Axe-Fx is made in the U.S.A. That costs a lot more than if it were made in China. I'm not allowed to post my political opinion here on why I think that is good for our country. You can glean whatever you want from that.
> 
> Also, our sales volume is probably a lot higher than you think...


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

biggness said:


> Also, this whole Line 6 buying in bulk vs AxeFx buying in bulk...



Of course he's going to say his product is better, faster and sounds better. He's under fire.

I really can't see him saying 'Yeah, the HD smokes the Axe-Fx'. I doubt he even knows too much about it. I can't see Line6 handing him over the details about the electronics of it. Fractal is who they're gunning for. Secondly, this is supposed to be brand new, never heard before technology Line 6 is using.

It's like putting up the average multicore computer build against a huge expensive primitive computer. The former is smaller, more efficient, and a fuck load cheaper. And then again, new technology. I'm not saying the hardware is new, maybe their code needs less processing power than the Axe.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

biggness said:


> Also, this whole Line 6 buying in bulk vs AxeFx buying in bulk...



Also, I don't have any links, but I do have an e-mail with the wording used:

'You know I can't make statements about what's better than what. That's a childish thing to do and we don't like to make comparisons. If you're looking for an answer to how our processor compares to fractal ASs you won't be getting anything from me but we have been looking at one extensively and making sure we break everything it does. every, single, time. they have better fx though, no doubt about that one.'


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## TomAwesome (Sep 10, 2010)

Again, I'm confounded as to why you're arguing your speculations so vehemently as if you believe them to be fact. You have no idea what it sounds like. None of us do. Is it conceivably possible that the POD HD will be on par with the Axe-FX? Sure, anything is possible. Maybe they have written some kind of incredibly realistic algorithms that are also far more efficient than the ones the Axe-FX uses. That seems unlikely, though.

I'm not hoping for Line 6 to fail. Quite to the contrary, even though I don't plan to get one, I'd love for this thing to rip. In any case, I'd imagine it will be a pretty decent step up from the X3 modeling. We don't have all of the information to work with, so we won't know what it's capable of until we hear it, but given the information we do have (which is still a lot) it just seems like a staggering unlikelihood that the new Line 6 tech will knock Fractal from its current standing. If it did, that would be incredible, but I haven't heard anything that would lead me to believe that that's the case, and unless you know something you're not telling us, I don't think you have, either.


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## biggness (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Of course he's going to say his product is better, faster and sounds better. He's under fire.



Well, at this current time, the Axe _is_ better, faster and does sound better. 




> I really can't see him saying 'Yeah, the HD smokes the Axe-Fx'. I doubt he even knows too much about it. I can't see Line6 handing him over the details about the electronics of it. Fractal is who they're gunning for.



He knows what's under the hood so to speak. There are only so many companies that manufacture Dsp's. I can pretty much assure you that Cliff keeps a close eye on the Dsp market, to better his own product and watch for the competition. The Dsp that is in the AxeFx Ultra is the current top dawg. 



> Secondly, this is supposed to be brand new, never heard before technology Line 6 is using.



Only time will tell how awesome and efficient this new tech is. 



> It's like putting up the average multicore computer build against a huge expensive primitive computer. The former is smaller, more efficient, and a fuck load cheaper. And then again, new technology. I'm not saying the hardware is new, maybe their code needs less processing power than the Axe.



That's the thing, there is not a cheaper faster Dsp offering at this time. So that metaphorical cheaper faster computer doesn't exist.


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## ShadyDavey (Sep 10, 2010)

All I can say is - I am sitting on the fence confident in the knowledge that if the Line6 HD's are a significant step up from their current crop they will be more than good enough for me and my needs 

(Speculation is fantastic....I'm still awaiting solid proof of anything other than their apperance at this time and I guess even that is subject to change ^^)


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

TomAwesome said:


> Again, I'm confounded as to why you're arguing your speculations so vehemently as if you believe them to be fact. You have no idea what it sounds like. None of us do. Is it conceivably possible that the POD HD will be on par with the Axe-FX? Sure, anything is possible. Maybe they have written some kind of incredibly realistic algorithms that are also far more efficient than the ones the Axe-FX uses. That seems unlikely, though.
> 
> I'm not hoping for Line 6 to fail. Quite to the contrary, even though I don't plan to get one, I'd love for this thing to rip. In any case, I'd imagine it will be a pretty decent step up from the X3 modeling. We don't have all of the information to work with, so we won't know what it's capable of until we hear it, but given the information we do have (which is still a lot) it just seems like a staggering unlikelihood that the new Line 6 tech will knock Fractal from its current standing. If it did, that would be incredible, but I haven't heard anything that would lead me to believe that that's the case, and unless you know something you're not telling us, I don't think you have, either.



I guess you could say it's blind faith at this point. I'm just hoping it turns out well for them. They're certainly trying their best with all the features we talked about.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Also, I don't have any links, but I do have an e-mail with the wording used:
> 
> 'You know I can't make statements about what's better than what. That's a childish thing to do and we don't like to make comparisons. *If you're looking for an answer to how our processor compares to fractal ASs* you won't be getting anything from me but we have been looking at one extensively and making sure we break everything it does. every, single, time. they have better fx though, no doubt about that one.'



Sounds like a real winner you're talking to


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 10, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> Sounds like a real winner you're talking to



I don't see what the issue is with the highlighted part?


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## TomAwesome (Sep 10, 2010)

Probably the "Fractal ASs" part, which I was kind of wondering about myself.


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## cyril v (Sep 10, 2010)

*Fractal* *A*udio *S*ystem*s*. Don't read too much into it, he probably didn't realize what it looked like when he abbreviated it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

ASs = *A*mp *S*im*s* ?

He's not calling Cliff an ass.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 10, 2010)

That makes sense. I'll buy that. I didn't get the impression that "ass" was the word he was trying to use, but I've been awake since yesterday morning, so I was having a little trouble figuring out what he meant there.


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## Andii (Sep 10, 2010)

An apostrophe makes a difference!


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## mmr007 (Sep 10, 2010)

God damn you guys make me feel dumb. The flextone 2 was just the right amount of technology for me and the vetta was borderline too much....all this stuff you guys are talking about?......I need to go get my 8 year old daughter to explain it to me


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## cradleofflames (Sep 10, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> Also, I don't have any links, but I do have an e-mail with the wording used:
> 
> 'You know I can't make statements about what's better than what. That's a childish thing to do and we don't like to make comparisons. If you're looking for an answer to how our processor compares to fractal ASs you won't be getting anything from me but we have been looking at one extensively and making sure we break everything it does. every, single, time. they have better fx though, no doubt about that one.'



There is still the likely possibility they are telling you what they are told to tell you: therefore all marketing. They're not advertising so it's not illegal (perhaps unethical) for them to lie to you. As much as ethics have gone down the tubes I wouldn't count on that stopping anybody, corporate or otherwise.

It's possible for Cliff to lie but I think it's unlikely. It's much riskier to do so given:
1. His position in the company compared to a mystery Line 6 engineer
2. Lack of market penetration
3. Their primary market is much more likely to care about getting lied to


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## cyril v (Sep 10, 2010)

Tone is all subjective and honestly it'd be silly for them not to have the goal to 1up the AxeFX (I don't think it's going to happen), but at the same time I don't think Cliff is going to sit there complacent and not continue to improve his product with his numerous updates AND work on a new AxeFX somewhere down the road as well.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 10, 2010)

I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here, but why does everyone keep saying that Line 6 is *incapable* of making a product that could sound just as good, if not better than Fractal?

That's kinda like saying ESP will never make a guitar as nice as Conklin. While Conklin is a small shop of experts and dedicated luthiers, ESP does have some VERY skilled folks who can make some mean guitars. Get it?


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## Andii (Sep 10, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'm kinda playing devil's advocate here, but why does everyone keep saying that Line 6 is *incapable* of making a product that could sound just as good, if not better than Fractal?


+1 on that 

I've seen some pretty out there comments in this thread. 

For all we know in a couple of months everyone on this forum could own one of these and swear by it, or the thing could turn out to be like another elevenrack.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Sep 10, 2010)

Past experiences in my case  I'll try it out, but I'm not expecting too much  I'm only looking for effects, but I'll still play with it just to try it out.


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## Customisbetter (Sep 10, 2010)

I will admit, that 500 looks BAD. ASS.

I probably won't buy one though.


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## cradleofflames (Sep 10, 2010)

It's not that they can't do it but that they won't.

They can't do it at the price point they reportedly declared, any price point it's practical for them to set, with the ease of use they're expected to have.


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## HaloHat (Sep 10, 2010)

Impossible there will not be a rack mount model with more features, routing and cost of course. 

If the "email" is accurate then the part about the effects not being as good would make me balk at buying one or it would help justify the AxeFx extra cost to me. Especially considering the obvious eventual "add on" packs and the cost effect on the Line 6 product. I understand that marketing method. Don't care for it.

As many have said, not knocking Line 6 HD's. I hope it impresses for the price, I am sure the floor model 300-500 HD's will. If I need to save for another couple months to get the better product that is what I would consider the better deal [Line 6 HD rack vs Fractal Audio Axe Fx]

I don't believe the floor model Line 6 HD's are going to take many sales from Fractal Audios product. I do think it will be a great piece of gear for someone who can't go with the Axe Fx. I agree that they are not made for the same buyer. We will see what the Line 6 HD rack does and for how much. Surely will happen by Winter NAMM and probably way before that. Not that far off really.


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## Cancer (Sep 11, 2010)

splinter8451 said:


> here is the 400 and 300, they look pretty cool to me. I hope they didn't just cram the spiders into a floorboard  even though the new Spiders do sound pretty good.




Thing is, there zre a couple of really cool things here:

a. The mode button is genius, why this was left out of the 500 (it doesn't need it since it has a dedicated looper button), I don't know, but I saw that and got excited. To me, this is really good UI design. I always loved their floorboard layouts and this doesn't disappoint me.

b. The 300 and 400, however, also share the UI of the Spider series. not a bad thing, as an upgraded Spider would probably sound pretty cool, but as we all know, the tweakability of the Spiders is limited. Now, what would really cool is if Line 6 expanded that, possibly by using the Spider UI to get you to the ballpark with an effect and letting you see deeper functions with the LCD. The approach would not be new to Line 6, since the older Pods were known for their "hidden editing pages". I'm looking at the pictures for the 400, and this very well may be the case.

c, Personally, if they even had a "amo effects loop" I'd be happier than a pig in crap, and it could very well be a feature, but there's no evidence of it in the pictures.

To answer your question from earlier, there is nothing wrong with the GT-10's routing, except for the amp/speaker thing, it works pretty well. My only real complaint about it is that its dated. Nowadays, an effects matrix is really the best way to go, you see in the Axefx, Guitar Rig, and Revalver (I believe) so why would it be so hard to do here? It is 2010 after all...


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## SnowfaLL (Sep 11, 2010)

The thing is, both of these units are so highly advanced, the difference between "sounding like shit" and sounding good is 95% of the time up to the USER who is programming the specific patch. Therefor, just going by what you hear on youtube videos; People who can afford the Axe-FX are often the vet musicians who know what good tone is.. while people who demo the Line 6 products are often less experienced and dont know how to get the best sound out of it (Like we all know, TONS of bands in the past 10 years have recorded full albums with a Pod.. No one bitches about their tone on the albums, its only when people hear Pods live from newbie bands or on crappy youtube videos, that people bitch about it)

Therefor, while im sure the Axe-FX does have the edge (and for 4 times the cost, it SHOULD have an edge), the edge is quite minute that its not a huge difference. Programming the units to the best of their abilities is the tricky part, but that being said Im sure you could take any recent modelling platform (GT-10, GSP1101, Pod X3) and get a tone that is almost identicle to any Axe-FX tone in an audio file. (especially talking MP3, which is what most of the audio files passed along online these days are)

I've heard the Axe-FX in person afew times, and to be 100% honest, while its pretty damn amazing, the things that impressed me most was the options it gives you. *In terms of pure audio/sound quality*, I wouldnt pay 4 times the price than the Digitech GSP1101 I am playing right now.

(TL;DR - People bash Line 6 and Digitech for being inferior based off crappy youtube demos of idiots who dont know how to work their units, but a professional can get an almost identicle sound to an Axe-FX on them, least close enough not to justify the price difference. *The Axe-FX's benefits are more in the unit itself, the options it gives, amount of amps/effects and all the tweaking it offers, which is what makes it superior than the other units, rather than pure audio quality,* which is already subjective to the listener, without adding the margin of error due to the programmer/user.)


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 11, 2010)

A little more information on the IR loader:

'.. the IR loader is something we are pushing to have on the HD500. I'll tell that you won't be using it much if you want the best tone out of it because our native cabinets use technology which will make you forget all about conventional impulse responses. think of it as a spatially aware impulse. its way is beyond the scope of the impulse responses you can find on the web.'


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## Andromalia (Sep 11, 2010)

Inabsentia, I understand you wish this to be good, but I don't see the point of quoting advertising "leaks" as long as nobody has heard the stuff.


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## InAbsentia_ (Sep 11, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> Inabsentia, I understand you wish this to be good, but I don't see the point of quoting advertising "leaks" as long as nobody has heard the stuff.



It's for people who want to know more about what this 'new technology' is. I don't see the point of people trying to discredit everything they say, from the word HD to 'Axe-fx competitor' as an advertising scam. It might very well not be.


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## ShadyDavey (Sep 11, 2010)

I think that the point is quite simply "We don't know either way" 

Claims and counter-claims abound, everyone engages in speculation.....it's a great thing to be informed of developments, rumours and perhaps even misinformation but until confirmation it's an endless circle of "Could be/Maybe" so let's all sit back and wait. 

I still haven't decided what cabs and amps would be a great match for either...full range P.A perhaps? ^^


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## Cancer (Sep 11, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> A little more information on the IR loader:
> 
> '.. the IR loader is something we are pushing to have on the HD500. I'll tell that you won't be using it much if you want the best tone out of it because our native cabinets use technology which will make you forget all about conventional impulse responses. think of it as a spatially aware impulse. its way is beyond the scope of the impulse responses you can find on the web.'



Where did you get this info? If this is true then maybe they will finally allow you to have some sort of amp loop functionality, which would be quite sweet.


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## Spinedriver (Sep 11, 2010)

InAbsentia_ said:


> It's for people who want to know more about what this 'new technology' is. I don't see the point of people trying to discredit everything they say, from the word HD to 'Axe-fx competitor' as an advertising scam. It might very well not be.



I guess the main point most are trying to make is that it's fine to anticipate what's coming. Just try and not get too caught up in whatever hype you may be hearing because I've always found that it's better to be impressed by something you thought little of than to be disappointed by something you had high expectations for.


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## Andromalia (Sep 11, 2010)

The only thing we can say for now is "the board pics look like it's decent looking". 
Other than that it's all wind for now, whether from doomsayers or L6 fanboys. I do have my beliefs as how this will turn out, but they're beliefs and can be smashed tomorrow.
Maybe L6 found a guy called Moher who is a programming genius, while we're at it.


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## Variant (Sep 15, 2010)

TemjinStrife said:


> You know, I don't often agree with you, Variant. But I think you've hit the nail on the head 100% here.
> 
> Hell, for $500 I can have a Mac Mini that smokes the AFX in terms of processing power and memory capacity, and has the capability of attaching nearly anything with a USB cord as a controller.



Well, I'm sorry that I am the antithesis of your thought process "often".  But, just to expound upon that, here's a clip from one of the contributors on the Sneep forums of *LePou*'s latest beta version of a Recto model:

This... is freeware, kids


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## PnKnG (Sep 22, 2010)

A little .bump:

LINE6 POD HD500 - Svensk International Cyberstore

All 3 are now up on the Thomann site again.


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## Adversor (Sep 22, 2010)

Variant said:


> Well, I'm sorry that I am the antithesis of your thought process "often".  But, just to expound upon that, here's a clip from one of the contributors on the Sneep forums of *LePou*'s latest beta version of a Recto model:
> 
> This... is freeware, kids



Pretty fucking awesome tone and it's free!


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## Andromalia (Sep 22, 2010)

LePou's rectt model is really good, but it doesn't solve one of his products issue: you can't take them and go to rehearsals and shows. Well, you can, if you wanna risk having a PC as the center of your rig. I don't.
People most often forget the axe fx isn't just a modeler but a full fledged preamp+multieffects, or a full fledged amp+multieffects if you go FRFR. It has nothing to do with computers. (Hence the lack of USB port, to my chagrin)


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 22, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> LePou's rectt model is really good, but it doesn't solve one of his products issue: you can't take them and go to rehearsals and shows. Well, you can, if you wanna risk having a PC as the center of your rig. I don't.
> People most often forget the axe fx isn't just a modeler but a full fledged preamp+multieffects, or a full fledged amp+multieffects if you go FRFR. It has nothing to do with computers. (Hence the lack of USB port, to my chagrin)



I guess that's where those Muse Receptors and MuseBox devises come in. They turn those amp sims into pre-amp/multi-effect style devices.


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## asmegin_slayer (Sep 22, 2010)

Got to admit, I like the industrial design of the HD500.


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## Ben.Last (Sep 22, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> It has nothing to do with computers. (Hence the lack of USB port, to my chagrin)



That's not really true. You could say, "It's missing some of the amenities of a modern computer" but to say it's not a computer is to ignore the fact that, well, it is.


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## Andromalia (Sep 22, 2010)

Yes, design is nice and price quite affordable. If Line 6 delivers the goods tonally and with build quality it's going to be a killer product.

^Edit: I meant, a windows-operated PC/Mac, if you prefer, with all the failures that can come with those.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 22, 2010)

Lern2swim said:


> That's not really true. You could say, "It's missing some of the amenities of a modern computer" but to say it's not a computer is to ignore the fact that, well, it is.



This is true, but I think his point was that it's not fair to compare the Axe-FX as a whole to a single plugin. Plugins like LePou's can be free because you're just downloading software that runs on the computer you already have. In addition to the other stuff that's on the Axe-FX, which is a completely self-contained unit, you're also paying for the hardware, which is pricey in itself.


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 22, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> Yes, design is nice and price quite affordable. If Line 6 delivers the goods tonally and with build quality it's going to be a killer product.
> 
> ^Edit: I meant, a windows-operated PC/Mac, if you prefer, with all the failures that can come with those.



Everyone always brings up stability when talking about using a computer for live playing. Though, I've had, and seen enough tube amps go sour live that I'd always have some form of back up no matter what route I choose. 

I've had, maybe, three or four PC crashes (as in anything other than a simple reboot fixing the "problem") in the last few years, and that's with all the dumb shit I have on my computers. I have had tube amps fail on me just as much. 

I don't see the added risk as long as the computer is properly setup and used exclusively for it's music-based purpose.


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## AlexWadeWC (Sep 25, 2010)

Musta been out of the loop, just now hearing about the HD500 and now I'm dying to have one. If it's even in a slight realm of an Axe FX tonally but at a Line 6 price ($500-ish street.... even cheaper with my artist pricing  ) then I will definitely be getting one. I have dreamed for the day that the only thing I had on stage was a wireless running into a direct-in Floor POD, but the current X3 Live just doesn't cut it for straight direct-in tones live..... at least for what I'm doing anyways.


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## jaco815 (Sep 25, 2010)

No one here has mentioned the Line 6 Spider Valve MKII which IMHO is one badass amp (minus the fact that its volume knob is a jumpy son of a bitch). The models on that thing combined with the valves and those V30's in that open back cab just sing. I think after playing that thing that Line 6 is capable of some true glory when they want to.

I think the sound on this is incredible with the Class A Blue model:





We'll see if this new pedal can sound as good when used properly.


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## metal_sam14 (Sep 28, 2010)

Community: POD HD 500 Patch Tested

Someone over on the line 6 forum posted this, aparently the guy couldn't tell the difference between the line 6 HD patch and the axe fx patch. 

food for thought?


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 28, 2010)

metal_sam14 said:


> Community: POD HD 500 Patch Tested
> 
> Someone over on the line 6 forum posted this, aparently the guy couldn't tell the difference between the line 6 HD patch and the axe fx patch.
> 
> food for thought?



To be honest, when recorded, Line 6 gear can already come frighteningly close to AxeFx sound quality, recording has a lot more to do with software and mixing than the raw sounds out of the unit. 

The true test of these new POD HDs will be how they sound live through a power amp/cab set-up as well as direct to the PA. 

I'm still waiting to hear more. I'm neither a Fractal or Line 6 fanboi, so I want to wait to get something concrete before making up my mind.


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## metal_sam14 (Sep 28, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> To be honest, when recorded, Line 6 gear can already come frighteningly close to AxeFx sound quality, recording has a lot more to do with software and mixing than the raw sounds out of the unit.
> 
> The true test of these new POD HDs will be how they sound live through a power amp/cab set-up as well as direct to the PA.
> 
> I'm still waiting to hear more. I'm neither a Fractal or Line 6 fanboi, so I want to wait to get something concrete before making up my mind.



I agree, for example some of bulb's pod recordings are incredible.
I fear if these ever come out in rack form that I will have to sell my gsp1101


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## MaxOfMetal (Sep 28, 2010)

metal_sam14 said:


> I agree, for example some of bulb's pod recordings are incredible.
> I fear if these ever come out in rack form that I will have to sell my gsp1101



I'd still be very cautious. I feel a fair chunk of what we've heard about these new PODs is little more than marketing.


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## metal_sam14 (Sep 28, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I'd still be very cautious. I feel a fair chunk of what we've heard about these new PODs is little more than marketing.



Defidently, I wouldn't buy anything blind, especial a pod haha


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## Andromalia (Sep 28, 2010)

Anyway, this is "only" a Plexi sim, we'll have to hear about the hi-gain ones, see what the quality of the effects is like, etc.
That said, most of the value of the axe-fx to me is the frequent firmware updates that very often make stuff sound better but can even be additional amps. which Line 6 will likely never do but issue "packs" for extra cash. (I want that triamp sim FFS...)

What can be said is, anyway, the better the product, the more we will all have fun with it. I devoutly hope this is a success.


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## Rev2010 (Sep 28, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> What can be said is, anyway, the better the product, the more we will all have fun with it. I devoutly hope this is a success.



I just want the fucking manual! Just so I could tell if I want the unit, I'm kinda picky about how certain features work. Just bought a GT-10 this past Friday to replace my dead GT-8 and am curious about this upcoming unit. I only have 30 days for return. I'm quite content with the GT series, I just hate that I had to drop $462 (had a 15% off coupon) for essentially exactly what I had before since I'm not really using much of the new features. At least FX1 & 2 are the same choice of effects now  But God I wish I could get my hands on the HD500 manual.


Rev.


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## petereanima (Sep 29, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> Anyway, this is "only" a Plexi sim, we'll have to hear about the hi-gain ones, see what the quality of the effects is like, etc.



Well, while of course the high gian tones are what most people here are after - we shouldnt forget that especcially low-gain tones as the common Plexi tone is the most difficult to model.


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## s_k_mullins (Sep 30, 2010)

Just found this video and I wanted to share since it demonstrates a few of the HD400 tones... I searched and didn't find it posted anywhere else, so I'm sorry if its a repost.




And also, a new Line 6 tube head...


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## Andromalia (Sep 30, 2010)

That Engl sound in the video doesn't sound like *anything* tube...Overprocessed, yes.


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## PnKnG (Sep 30, 2010)

More video's from line6:



and site is up:

http://line6.com/podhd/


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## Emperoff (Sep 30, 2010)

As always, the demo sounds on the website are pure crap.


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## TomAwesome (Sep 30, 2010)

I'm still hearing a bit of that "Line 6" flavor in the tones, but it's less abrasive than it used to be. It definitely does sound like a huge step above their current products, though. I don't think I'm about to drop my Axe-FX, but if the Axe-FX wasn't an option for me, I'd be pretty stoked about being able to get this level of quality for what they're supposed to sell for when they hit the market. I really wish they would have talked about the supposedly revolutionary speaker simulation technology that their reps were claiming would make impulses a thing of the past.

I'm disappointed that there's only one very short metal rhythm clip and that it sounds terrible, but the clips sound pretty good considering how notoriously awful Line 6 demo tones have always been. I'm looking forward to hearing what real people end up doing with this stuff.

Oh, and I'm pretty unimpressed (and a little confused) by the tube amp.


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## PnKnG (Sep 30, 2010)

Andromalia said:


> That Engl sound in the video doesn't sound like *anything* tube...Overprocessed, yes.



Well, first of its youtube audio quality. I have learned a long time ago that the last judgement is still with me in person and not because of some youtube clip.
Second thing is that he is also using a Variax guitar. So I thing that isn't really helping the case of not sounding digital.

Guess we will have to see what other, real people say.

I just put up my X3 for sale (here in Sweden) and once it is sold I guess I will give the 500 a try. I'm going to buy it from Hjrtligt vlkommen! - Svensk International Cyberstore , that way I got a 30 day trial period and can try it and if I don't like it, send it back without asking.


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## thesimo (Sep 30, 2010)

Doesn't sound any better than my pod xt pro, to my ears.


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## Ben.Last (Sep 30, 2010)

thesimo said:


> Doesn't sound any better than my pod xt pro, to my ears.



And you listen to your xt pro through youtube... right?


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