# Black and White Finish



## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

Does anybody know how to get a black and white finish on maple? Or at least close to it. 

Like these.


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## Leuchty (Mar 30, 2013)

White paint and a sharpie?



No sorry dont really know. The second one could be oiled or lightly stained.


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## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

CYBERSYN said:


> White paint and a sharpie?
> 
> 
> 
> No sorry dont really know. The second one could be oiled or lightly stained.



 I figured someone would suggest something along the lines of sharpie it by hand. I'm looking more for what the second one looks like, or something that resembles white birch bark.


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## Mitochondria (Mar 30, 2013)

I think this kind of finish is best done with black ash because of its grain structure. 

Essentially it is dyed/ slightly clear coated/ filled with grain filler/ sanded back/ and then finish with your clear coat.

The white can be done with a Pickling stain and ebony grain filler. 

The black can be done with a black stain and either white or a light natural grain filler.


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## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

Mitochondria said:


> I think this kind of finish is best done with black ash because of its grain structure.
> 
> Essentially it is dyed/ slightly clear coated/ filled with grain filler/ sanded back/ and then finish with your clear coat.
> 
> ...



How much would that cost, where (I live in new york) would I get the stuff, and does it work on maple?


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## Berserker (Mar 30, 2013)

It's called a ceruse finish. You dye/paint it white first then apply black grain filler. You need a deep pored wood like ash or oak... it wouldn't work on maple.

They use this technique on F basses a lot:


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## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

Berserker said:


> It's called a ceruse finish. You dye/paint it white first then apply black grain filler. You need a deep pored wood like ash or oak... it wouldn't work on maple.



Shit. I'll remember that for next time! Thanks. Is there any way to get something similar to that on maple?


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## HighPotency (Mar 30, 2013)

Your best bet would be raising and sanding the grain. Apparently media blasting helps take down the grain as well but not everyone has the setup/space to do so. Maple isn't a very open grained wood, however, so I can't speak for how good the results would turn out.


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## teleofseven (Mar 30, 2013)

my guess would be sandblastin (or something finer) the surface and then first painting a thick-ish layer of white (using the white paint as a sealer too) then painting a light coat of black on top of that.

then sand the surface untill the white shows up and looks like as it does in that picture of yours. then apply the final clear coats.


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## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

Well until I can get some ash or something better for it, I assume it wouldn't work on basswood for practice?


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## Necromagnon (Mar 30, 2013)

Nop.
As said by Berserker, you need a very open grain. Basswood, maple, and many others won't work at all. The key is to 1st stain completely the wood, and then, when sanding down the wood, deep veins will keep the stain, while the middle areas will be sanded and lost the stain. So to make it, you 1st apply the color you want your veins to be (black in the case of the mayonnes shown), then sand to come back to natural on the large areas, and then fill the grain with the color desired for the rest.


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## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

Alright thanks. I'll try to get some ash or something next time. Thanks for all the info and help everyone.

EDIT: Is there any specific cut I should get for it?


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## skeels (Mar 30, 2013)

Almost any cut of ash will be good. Poplar might be good too. There are some cheap blanks on ebay.

Also, where did that first pic come from?

I have been staring at it for hours. 

It really does look like white paint and a sharpie!

Is that for real?


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## muffinbutton (Mar 30, 2013)

skeels said:


> Almost any cut of ash will be good. Poplar might be good too. There are some cheap blanks on ebay.
> 
> Also, where did that first pic come from?
> 
> ...



Thanks. And I have no idea where the pic came from. I asked Scherzo about the finish and he sent me both of those pictures and said he didn't know how either.


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## Watty (Mar 30, 2013)

Looks like a Mayo to me...?


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## HighPotency (Mar 30, 2013)

The picture in the OP is indeed a Mayones


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## Necromagnon (Mar 31, 2013)

muffinbutton said:


> EDIT: Is there any specific cut I should get for it?


As skeels said, any cut will do the same. But the cut will drastically change the shape of the veins, so that's where it's important. I, personnally, totally prefer fatcut ash, because the veins are complex and goes back and forth. On quartersawn cut, the veins are perfectly straight. So it's a bit sad imo. But with a complex carving, it can deform the veins enough to have something nice.


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## muffinbutton (Mar 31, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> As skeels said, any cut will do the same. But the cut will drastically change the shape of the veins, so that's where it's important. I, personnally, totally prefer fatcut ash, because the veins are complex and goes back and forth. On quartersawn cut, the veins are perfectly straight. So it's a bit sad imo. But with a complex carving, it can deform the veins enough to have something nice.



Exactly what is a fatcut? I know quarter and flat sawn but I've never heard of fat cut.


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## Necromagnon (Mar 31, 2013)

it's very similar to flatsawn, but you take down the "L" to the saw.


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## muffinbutton (Mar 31, 2013)

I'm not even sure how to respond to that. So it's the same thing?


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Apr 25, 2013)

At the risk of Necrobumping, I just started a thread about this very thing, but all the good info is already here, so that's where I'll be too. 
Just to clarify, you stain the wood the color you want the veins first. Then you sand back the rest, and re-stain for the "main" color, is that right?


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## Necromagnon (Apr 26, 2013)

OfArtAndArsenal said:


> At the risk of Necrobumping, I just started a thread about this very thing, but all the good info is already here, so that's where I'll be too.
> Just to clarify, you stain the wood the color you want the veins first. Then you sand back the rest, and re-stain for the "main" color, is that right?


Yep.

Try to search the web with "ceruse", I think it's the same word in french and english. This is how this finish is called in woodworking term (not those guitar building terms...).



> I'm not even sure how to respond to that. So it's the same thing?


It was a joke, dude.  (and sorry for the delay, i didn't see your answer before).


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## muffinbutton (Apr 26, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> It was a joke, dude.  (and sorry for the delay, i didn't see your answer before).



Haha, no problem dude.


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## Berserker (Apr 26, 2013)

OfArtAndArsenal said:


> At the risk of Necrobumping, I just started a thread about this very thing, but all the good info is already here, so that's where I'll be too.
> Just to clarify, you stain the wood the color you want the veins first. Then you sand back the rest, and re-stain for the "main" color, is that right?


 
No.

For the white finish in the op and the one you posted, the base colour would be painted first and the grain filler wiped over the top.


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Apr 26, 2013)

How do you keep the base color from taking over the veins then?


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## Berserker (Apr 26, 2013)

The base colour will go in to the grain but won't fill it (if only it was that easy to fill grain). You can clearly see the white guitar in the op is painted... there's no way you could do the grain black first and spray white over the top.


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## Necromagnon (Apr 26, 2013)

I'm sorry, I didn't find it in english, but still, the pics speak of themselves:
HMDIFFUSION

So, yes, it is totally possible to do it with only taint, and not painting, as said a hundred times before.


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## vansinn (Apr 26, 2013)

I remember Ormsby used to do something similar on some special Aussie desert woods with deep grains.
He filled the deep grains with black epoxy, sanded, polished and applied an oil finish (I think).

An interesting method, when a wood doesn't have the needed grains depth, is to sandblast the hardwood with almost soft enough grains/structure, to make the grains stand out more to allow the fillings.


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## Berserker (Apr 26, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't find it in english, but still, the pics speak of themselves:
> HMDIFFUSION
> 
> So, yes, it is totally possible to do it with only taint, and not painting, as said a hundred times before.


 
Possible to do do what? The white & black guitar in the op is painted white and grain filled over the top, as is the black and red one ofartandarsenal posted about. 

Apologies if I'm just misunderstanding your point.


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## Necromagnon (Apr 26, 2013)

Berserker said:


> Apologies if I'm just misunderstanding your point.


Same here.

What I understand of what you said is that it's not possible other way than painting the pattern on the guitar. But I might not understand correctly.



> The white & black guitar in the op is painted white and grain filled over the top


It's the contrary. The veins (so narrowest part) keep the stain will the plain areas don't. So you first apply the stain you want to be in veins on the whole guitar. Then you send gently to remove the stain only on the larger areas. Then, you apply the second stain you want. After that, it's nothing but a classic finish (grain filler, sanding, laquer, blabla)


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## Berserker (Apr 26, 2013)

Necromagnon said:


> Same here.
> 
> What I understand of what you said is that it's not possible other way than painting the pattern on the guitar. But I might not understand correctly.
> 
> ...


 
Which finish are you talking about? I'm referring to the black/white one in the op that is clearly painted, and the red/black one ofartanarsenal posted about here

Gibson' voodoo finish is the same... the base coat goes on first and a coloured grain filler is rubbed in to the grain after:


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## MikeK (Apr 26, 2013)

You could still do a deep black stain, sand it back quite a bit, then clear. Maybe even a white wash stain after sanding the black back, then clear.


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Apr 26, 2013)

Which again begs my question: how do you keep the second coat from changing the color in the veins?


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## Berserker (Apr 26, 2013)

Check out the second paragraph... Gibson tell you exactly how it's done. If you want lighter coloured grain or solid white with black grain the grain filler goes on after the body colour.

Gibson USA conjures up new Voodoo Series

Doing the grain first only works if it's a darker colour with a stained body, because it doesn't matter if the stain goes in to the grain as it's much darker... something like this:






I hope this helps to clear it up as you've been given a lot of conflicting info in the last few posts.


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## OfArtAndArsenal (Apr 26, 2013)

Berserker said:


> Doing the grain first only works if it's a darker colour with a stained body, because it doesn't matter if the stain goes in to the grain as it's much darker


 
Yeah that's what I was thinking. Darker grain can be stained first, then sanded and stained again for the base. Lighter grain would have to be filled after a darker base is done. Got it.

Whew...


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## Necromagnon (Apr 26, 2013)

Berserker said:


> Which finish are you talking about? I'm referring to the black/white one in the op that is clearly painted, and the red/black one ofartanarsenal posted about here


The b&w mayonnes on the 1st post is clearly not plainted, it's exactly the same technic as used by Gibson on the voodoo series (they were the 1st I think to really democratize this kind of finish). If it was painted, it would most probably be all "flat" (the layer being thin and all on the same plan) while there, you clearly see the difference of height.

about the way of finishing and order of applying, it's tricky. I think gibson make the contrary, because if you 1st feel the large area, then how do you apply the red stain only in the veins? And how do you do to have it seen above the black stain?
It's, I think, done the way explained several times:
1) application of the stain desired for the veins, in good quantities -it will do a bit of the job of grain filler
2) gentle sanding to remove the stain on the large part and only there. If you sand to hard, you'll start to remove on the veins also
3) apply the completing stain you want.

After this, if you want a certain stain in the vein, you'll have to anticipate the fact that the filling stain and the grain filler will affect the color of your stain.

The original process of ceruse finish was to sand quite harsh the wood to raise the grain (mostly on the veins, where it's more dense). Then you where applying a gum/paste on the whole wood (basically made out of lead (Pb) for a white color). After complete dry, the wood was sand softly back to remove the ceruse only where the grain is softer, i.e. in the large areas. Then, application of oil or anything to protect and fix the paste onto the wood.

Also, it's almost the same process as "3D finishes" on figured (flammed/quilted/etc) woods. So if you find a good tutorial about how to do it (I've some but still in french... :/ ), you can take the same process for your finish.


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## Berserker (Apr 27, 2013)

Well I've never seen a completely solid white stain before, so you must know something I don't. Whether it's painted or not is pretty irrelevant anyway, my whole point is that the grain is filled after the base coat. You're telling me that you can grain fill black first and then wipe on a mythical perfectly solid white stain afterwards without the wet stain picking up any of the grain filler and getting dirty? Good luck with that!

When you paint / stain the base coat the grain is still open. You apply a thinned grain filler and squeegee the excess off. I've done it on a test piece myself with black and red, but unforunately I don't have that piece any more.

I posted a link to the Gibson website that tells you this is how they do the voodoo finish! There's not much more I can do to try and help.


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