# 7 String Midi Pickup Reality?



## SplinteredSoul (May 11, 2009)

Hey all

Can't guarantee this is news yet, as I've only just opened a dialogue with these guys about it, but I thought you might be interested to know that Shadow Electronics may be considering making a 7 String Midi Pickup now, after I made a request. Copies of emails pasted below. If anyone else is interested, I'd say jump on the band wagon and throw them an email yourself too, as it might increase interest, but try not to harrass them either! You can reach Dominic of Shadow on his email address: [email protected]

Anyway ..... Here's what I sent to them:

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hi there guys

I've been a fan of your products for 15 years, since I first heard of Shadow in the mid 90's. During this time, I was a student at college, who could only play Guitar, but needed to be able to use a midi sequencer. If it weren't for Shadow, I wouldn't have the music career I have today!

Shadow Midi is why I'm contacting you. Although this may be entirely the wrong email address to send this message to, unfortunately I found no other form of contact on your website. After all these years, I found the only Guitars I want to play are 7 String Guitars, much like so many others. Playing a 7 String Guitar is like playing a Grand Piano after playing a portable keyboard for so many years; once you get used to it, you never want to go back. Sadly, the only thing that is not available to 7 String Guitarists is a Midi pickup/interface. Now with Guitars evolving even into 8 String baritones, the Guitars evolution is leaving tech behind. Roland seem uninterested in conquering this Market, and I believe that leaves it open for you. All you have to do is visit Sevenstring.org - The Seven String Guitar Authority to see that there is a large world of 7 String Guitarists begging for a 7 String Midi Pickup/Interface to be made.

I urge Shadow to consider taking this unchartered market for their own. Countless Guitarists will cheer for Shadow for years to come if you can bring us our dream. We desparately want to use Midi like everyone else, only over a greater range.

Please let me know if this is of interest to you, as I would very much like to pre-order the first one should you choose to make one!!

Hope to hear from you soon,

-- 
Chris Frost - Splintered Soul 

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...and Here's the response I got:


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Hi Christopher,

Thank you very, very much for your kind email. It always is a great pleasure to meet people who ae playing Shadow products for such a long time.

For Shadow the Midi pickup systems were the break-through in the 80`s and made Shadow to the biggest manufacturer of pickups and preamps on the world. In the last years Shadow concentrated on pickups for acoustic instruments. If you look on our website www.shadow-electronics.com you will find out more about those fantastic products.

I surely will forward your message to our R&D dept. and if there is a chance to make it, they surely will go for it.

Kind regards,
Dominic
Shadow Service Center


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## ZeroSignal (May 11, 2009)

Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with what kind of applications these could be used for (it's also quite late here so I'm not really awake ). What could we use these for?


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## SplinteredSoul (May 11, 2009)

ZeroSignal said:


> Unfortunately I'm not too familiar with what kind of applications these could be used for (it's also quite late here so I'm not really awake ). What could we use these for?



That's the beauty of midi man, practically anything. Lighting, effects automation, tone modules/synths (playing synth sounds on your Guitar), synchronisation to various outboard gear, so many things. Midi is actually an old tech these days, spawning from the 80's, but it's still so versatile, it's still popular today. Hell, I change all my effects and amp channels via midi with a push of a button. Lately I've even taken it a step further, and during live gigs, I have a sequencer do it for me. I just play, and it flicks from clean to overdrive exactly at the right time.

But as for the pickup, I'd want one so I could use synth and orchestral sounds on my Guitar. I'd just plug it in, and play. You're really only limited by your imagination. I love midi  There are already a few midi pickups on the market for 6 string Guitarists, but I don't use one. I'm a sevenstring lover, and I always will be. Having my Guitar sound synchronised with a nice Cello on my low B to me sounds like heaven.


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## Trespass (May 11, 2009)

Hey Chris, are you running into a Roland VG-99 or something similar for your midi? Or are you using a breakout box and going directly into a laptop with a VST for your synth stuff?


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## darren (May 11, 2009)

Any guitar-to-MIDI converter will still only handle six string inputs, though. The pickup is just the first part of a very complex piece of gear.


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## technomancer (May 11, 2009)

What Darren said. The entire guitar midi interface system from Roland and now used by others is only six channels. Now if it just provides a midi output that's a normal midi signal THAT would be interesting as then you could just run midi to normal midi controlled devices like synth modules.


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## Variant (May 12, 2009)

darren said:


> Any guitar-to-MIDI converter will still only handle six string inputs, though. The pickup is just the first part of a very complex piece of gear.





Precisely, none of Roland's VG stuff supports more than six strings so that kills the usefulness to me.


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## SplinteredSoul (May 12, 2009)

Trespass said:


> Hey Chris, are you running into a Roland VG-99 or something similar for your midi? Or are you using a breakout box and going directly into a laptop with a VST for your synth stuff?



Currently, or hoping to?



darren said:


> Any guitar-to-MIDI converter will still only handle six string inputs, though. The pickup is just the first part of a very complex piece of gear.



Hmm I don't know if I agree with that. There's nothing physical that limits it that way. If a keyboard can have 88 notes, then it has 88 triggers. We're only looking for 7. Unless you're looking at it from a Roland perspective, and Shadow won't be.



technomancer said:


> What Darren said. The entire guitar midi interface system from Roland and now used by others is only six channels. Now if it just provides a midi output that's a normal midi signal THAT would be interesting as then you could just run midi to normal midi controlled devices like synth modules.



But this isn't Roland. Roland's "Midi Pickup" is just an interface for their own Guitar Synths, and it's actually midi at all. You still need to go into a G-88 (for example) in order to have a normal Midi port you can use. The Shadow pickup will be true midi.



Variant said:


> Precisely, none of Roland's VG stuff supports more than six strings so that kills the usefulness to me.




Roland aren't the "be all, and end all" to midi guys. There's plenty more useful gear out there. They may be more well known for their Guitar Synths, but they by no means dominate the Midi Guitar Market. Shadow have been doing this a lot longer, in fact pioneered the thing. With Roland, all you have is their VG series, with Shadow, it's anything that currently exists as midi.

Don't go confusing this with Roland, it's not.


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## Toxin (May 12, 2009)

it would be nice to have midi pickup for 7
i've been thinkin about it a year or two ago


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## synrgy (May 12, 2009)

If they figure it out -- awesome.

Other guys already mentioned the big problem though -- the pickup is only one half of the equation.

No point getting a 7 string midi pickup when I know that the box I need to get that pickup to talk to my computer will only support 6 of the 7 strings.

That's not just Roland. It's Shadow, it's Graph Tech, it's Axxon...

If I understand correctly (and it's quite possible that I don't), they'll have to completely change the way the pickups currently interpret and send data for this to work. In that regard, let's hope they don't stop at 7 inputs, because by the time that product hits the market we'll probably all be playing Warr guitars or Chapman sticks.


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## SplinteredSoul (May 12, 2009)

I'd really love to see the specs and data to understand what some of you guys are talking about, because from my point of view, I can see no reason why a 7 string, or any other kind, would not work as a midi pickup. Regardless of Roland gear, in fact let's take Roland out of the picture for the time being, Midi existed in it's current form long before Midi Guitar Interfaces ever did.

Midi was designed for up to 128 note polyphony, 128 presets, 88 note note value input, along with a large selection of other parameters that were so far ahead of it's time. That being the case, I see no reason why something designed and built pre-Guitar interfaces would be limited to 6 strings. A keyboard can input (depending on polyphony) up to 88 notes simultaneously, and all a Midi pickup would do is to trigger a Note On and Note Off value from a String rather than a key. That's all it is, again depending on how you set it up.

Now putting Roland back IN to the equation, you can actually buy interfaces that convert your midi device into that of a Roland synth, and all that synth needs is the note value. It doesn't care how many strings you have, or what they're tuned to, so long as it's within the range it can accept. Therefore, there is no reason to believe that Shadow's 7/8/9 (etc.,) string Midi pickups would not work. Alright, it is fair to say that the system screen of a VG-88 with it's graphical representation of a Guitar of 6 Strings would be null and void, and you would not be able to set up parameters petaining to a 6 string (i.e. tunings), but in this case, the "assumed" 7 String Shadow pickup would use the VG-88 as a tone module only.

Personally, I wouldn't be interested in a VG-88. If I want the sound of another Guitar, I'll buy another Guitar. For me, I want to use Tone Modules and Synths on my Guitar, and that's what the Shadow will give me.


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## synrgy (May 12, 2009)

I don't understand it or pretend it makes any sense -- I just know what the current limitations are.

Yes-- you _could_ get output from all 7 strings. 

The 'problem' currently, is that with all the converters on the market, you can not get _simultaneous_ output from all 7 strings, without buying a second converter for the extra string(s) after the first 6..

I don't get it either. I don't see why I need the converter box at all, really. If my guitar has a midi pickup with a 13 pin output, in theory that should be all I need -- Run a MIDI cable directly from that 13 pin output to the MIDI IN of whatever unit I'm trying to trigger, and that should be it.

Unfortunately, I have to use the stupid GI-20 (or some other similar unit) to act as the 'middleman' between the pickup and the gear.


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## HamBungler (May 12, 2009)

synrgy said:


> I don't understand it or pretend it makes any sense -- I just know what the current limitations are.
> 
> Yes-- you _could_ get output from all 7 strings.
> 
> ...



A MIDI cable only has 5 pins. The 13 Pin thing is Roland's synth pickup cable, which is a totally different thing, its not technically MIDI, its really just a hexaphonic pickup that sends string note information to the guitar synthesizer. If you use say a standard MIDI sound module with an actual MIDI pickup system, it should work fine, all that needs to be made is a module that can send all 7 signals. The reason the Graphtech Ghost system doesn't work is because it only accepts 6 outputs, so all that needs to be made is something that can accept more string outputs.


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## darren (May 12, 2009)

Presumably, Shadow will be designing their own interface and convertor box, then. Sorry if i jumped to the "Roland GR-compatible" conclusion.


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## synrgy (May 12, 2009)

HamBungler said:


> A MIDI cable only has 5 pins. The 13 Pin thing is Roland's synth pickup cable, which is a totally different thing, its not technically MIDI, its really just a hexaphonic pickup that sends string note information to the guitar synthesizer. If you use say a standard MIDI sound module with an actual MIDI pickup system, it should work fine, all that needs to be made is a module that can send all 7 signals. The reason the Graphtech Ghost system doesn't work is because it only accepts 6 outputs, so all that needs to be made is something that can accept more string outputs.


 
Duh.

My lack of brain cells today; let me show you them. 

So you're telling me that there _is_ a MIDI guitar pickup (6 string or otherwise) that I can run directly into a MIDI unit of my choice without the need for a converter? Link, please?

I was only aware of Graph Tech, Roland, and Axxon. Shadow is new for me, this thread was the first I'd heard of them.

I've really been looking hard for info on all this stuff for the last several years, but it's been the one thing that the internet has really let me down on, apparently. If I'd known a product like you're describing existed, I would never have bought the stupid GK-3 and GI-20 that I have now...


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## darren (May 12, 2009)

Saying it's all in the pickup is misleading. Shadow does have their own pitch-to-MIDI system that relies on external boxes... they're just not the same as Roland boxes.


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## yingmin (May 12, 2009)

Contrary to what most of you assumed, Shadow could quite well make a pickup that outputs pure MIDI from a 7-string, thus bypassing the need to comply with Roland's standard 13-pin system. That's a mixed blessing, though, as Roland-compatible systems offer benefits like being able to split strings, and all sorts of other things you can only do when the synthesizer knows which string you're playing, rather than seeing everything as simply notes. Also, I can't tell from the sparse literature on Shadow's website if that ghastly, unsightly console (SH075) is all you need to run a MIDI rig, or if you have to purchase the distribution box, too. It seems to me that you COULD run MIDI without it, but then you wouldn't be able to switch between guitar and synth. If you have to buy the box and the cable together with the pickup, then you're looking at upwards of $1000 USD for basic MIDI output, with no sounds or control over the signal. 

Overall, I think the implementation of this is pretty shoddy. I'd rather have them trim the pickup down to something like the GK3 or the Axon pickups, and change the "distributor" to a more flexible module (preferably rackmounted, because that's just how I roll). Also, finding a way to internalize the system would be a big step forward, as then you could use it with something like the Graphtech Ghost system and potentially using it with any number of strings, instead of having a 7-string model and a 6-string model. If they came out with a 7-string system that works the same way their current model does, I wouldn't use it.

Since my last post, I've been wracking my brain to come up with a way to reconcile the flexibility and control of the Roland model with the ease of use Shadow offers, and I think I may have come up with it. Now, all of this is based on my understanding of how the Shadow system operates, which might be incorrect, so bear with me.

THE PICKUP:
Since I would much prefer a slimmer, more discreet pickup/console configuration, I would opt for an internally mounted pickup and preamp rather than a block console. You could have a board, much like the summing board the Graphtech Ghost system uses, but with sixteen inputs. This is ideal because MIDI can carry information on up to sixteen channels simultaneously. A 16-input board would allow you to add MIDI to ANY stringed instrument, so long as each string had an independent transducer. This makes it more enticing for Shadow, as they could offer this product to guitarists, bassists, violinists, Stick players, ANYBODY, instead of simply being a "guitar" synthesizer. Each string sends out signal on a different MIDI channel. The board then connects to a 7-pin DIN connector, which can take either a regular MIDI cable or a 7-pin cable commonly used for phantom-powered MIDI boards. Since both of these cables are relatively common and easy to get ahold of, you wouldn't have to worry about special-ordering a rare and expensive proprietary cable. The cable coming out of the guitar carries your MIDI signal (again, with each string operating on a different channel) and with the 7-pin cable, up to two guitar signals, for guitars that have stereo output. On-board processing would be limited to things like patch up/down switching, synth volume and mag pickup/synth switching, just like the GK3s.

THE PROCESSOR

While it would be cool to have the power to split strings, frets and all that, like the Axon processors can, I suspect there's no way to do that without succumbing to the 13-pin standard or an analogue thereof. I don't even expect on-board sounds, although Shadow could partner with some synth company if they wanted to. The primary purpose of this piece would be routing. Since the pickup will transmit every single string on a separate channel, the processor will simply tell the signal where to go. It will create "scenes", to use the parlance of the MIDI business, and within each scene you can assign the channels however you want. I'm talking a lot and not saying much, so here's an example to demonstrate what I'm taking too long to explain:

Say we've set up an 8-string guitar for MIDI. The processor will receive MIDI information on channels 1-8. You can set up one scene to merge channels 6-8 (the lower three strings) to channel 7, and channels 1-5 (the upper five strings) to channel 8. Another scene can split the eight strings in half. Yet another scene can merge them all to channel 6.

This gives you a much greater flexibility over the sound, and allows for much cleaner integration into existing MIDI setups. Now you don't have to set up your amp, effects, synths, etc. to work around the six channels the Shadow pickup takes up if you have it set to mono mode, nor do you have to be cautious not to take up the same channel. The synth data goes exactly where you want it to. This processor will have a 7-pin input for the guitar as well as MIDI in (for receiving program changes), out (for transmitting note data to synthesizers) and thru (for passing MIDI data along to non-synth pieces in your rig. Finally, two 1/4" outputs for your guitar signal(s). Anything after that would be totally optional. Things like an onboard arpeggiator, or the ability to use a hold switch to activate different features, would be cool, but not critical.

Does anyone have any questions? I tried to explain things as clearly as I could, but it's probably a bit of a jumble. What does anyone think about this?


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## SplinteredSoul (May 12, 2009)

yingmin said:


> Contrary to what most of you assumed, Shadow could quite well make a pickup that outputs pure MIDI from a 7-string, thus bypassing the need to comply with Roland's standard 13-pin system. ...



I've got to say, I'm pretty impressed by that post. I was thinking along the same lines as you, but with far less knowledge on the physical "ins and outs" of how midi is put together. i.e. I can take almost anything apart and figure it out, but when it comes to PCB's, forget it. So I'm grateful to your post Yingman. Whilst I knew I was onto something, I didn't know how to verbalise it lol.

At the very very least, USB took the computer world by storm, then along came USB2, which was backwardly compatible with USB1. If Shadow did well with their 7 String Midi pickup, Roland might consider the above as their option.

But for now, I'm really routing for Shadow on this one. I played one of the first Midi Guitar Synths way back, and whilst it was early days then, and it struggled with poor intonation, it was a breakthrough and opened up a new world to me. X amount of years on, I'm sure they've refined their concept into something perfectly giggable, and if I'm able to play a Korg Triton Extreme's bluetube lead sounds mixed with my Guitar tone (etc.,) I'll be very happy indeed.



darren said:


> Presumably, Shadow will be designing their own interface and convertor box, then. Sorry if i jumped to the "Roland GR-compatible" conclusion.



Oh yes, completely different thing altogether. Think more along the lines of everything ELSE that's Midi other than Roland VG.



darren said:


> Saying it's all in the pickup is misleading. Shadow does have their own pitch-to-MIDI system that relies on external boxes... they're just not the same as Roland boxes.



Yeah exactly what he said. There's not going to be a 5-pin din socket on a Guitar that'll do the job, it'll need some form of breakout box no matter what it is. In the case of the old 80's Shadow Synth I used all those moons ago, it was a large 4U rackmount signal-to-midi converter, that outputted midi note value to whatever tone module you wanted to use.


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## yingmin (May 12, 2009)

SplinteredSoul said:


> Yeah exactly what he said. There's not going to be a 5-pin din socket on a Guitar that'll do the job, it'll need some form of breakout box no matter what it is. In the case of the old 80's Shadow Synth I used all those moons ago, it was a large 4U rackmount signal-to-midi converter, that outputted midi note value to whatever tone module you wanted to use.



See, I don't think that's true. If I understand the Shadow correctly, all of the actual processing, the pitch-to-MIDI translation, is done on the pickup itself, and the breakout box only splits your signal back into separate guitar and MIDI. Notice that the Shadow pickup runs off a 6-pin cable: maybe I'm assuming too much, but it seems to me that that's five pins for your regular MIDI data and one for the guitar signal. I see no reason to think you couldn't run a regular MIDI cable straight from the pickup into a synthesizer or other MIDI equipment.


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## SplinteredSoul (May 13, 2009)

yingmin said:


> See, I don't think that's true. If I understand the Shadow correctly, all of the actual processing, the pitch-to-MIDI translation, is done on the pickup itself, and the breakout box only splits your signal back into separate guitar and MIDI. Notice that the Shadow pickup runs off a 6-pin cable: maybe I'm assuming too much, but it seems to me that that's five pins for your regular MIDI data and one for the guitar signal. I see no reason to think you couldn't run a regular MIDI cable straight from the pickup into a synthesizer or other MIDI equipment.



Well not to argue with you or anything man, but I was talking about the 80's Midi synth I used. Unless you can find it on their site, I'm not sure how you can argue with that. It was a signal-to-midi converter. That particular unit had no midi pickup as it was a separate rack unit.


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## B36arin (May 13, 2009)

yingmin said:


> See, I don't think that's true. If I understand the Shadow correctly, all of the actual processing, the pitch-to-MIDI translation, is done on the pickup itself, and the breakout box only splits your signal back into separate guitar and MIDI. Notice that the Shadow pickup runs off a 6-pin cable: maybe I'm assuming too much, but it seems to me that that's five pins for your regular MIDI data and one for the guitar signal. I see no reason to think you couldn't run a regular MIDI cable straight from the pickup into a synthesizer or other MIDI equipment.



If it works that way, it'd be incredibly awesome! I'd definitely get one, as long as they weren't toooooooo expensive.


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## darren (May 13, 2009)

I think you're probably assuming too much.

SH 075 MIDI system with no complex setup

There is a lot of processing involved to detect pitch and convert it into MIDI information. That computational power is not housed within the pickup itself.

The six-conductor cable is probably the hexaphonic output from the pickup only, and that goes to the processor box.


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## synrgy (May 13, 2009)

I'm just frustrated. After a year and a half, I have yet to be able to get my GK-3 to track reliably enough to even dream of using it in a live situation, and even then it's only giving me 6 of my 7 strings.

To make matters more frustrating, I was at a GC the other day, and they had a 'Roland ready Strat' hooked up to some Roland MIDI/Guitar shit, and it tracked BEAUTIFULLY. Mind you, it's the same M-F-ING pickup that I have, mounted on top of the body just like mine is, with the same amount of space between the strings and the pickup. This one works perfect, mine sucks ass. Go figure.


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## darren (May 13, 2009)

I've read that the piezo-driven options are much faster and track better than the magnetic under-string pickups.


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## synrgy (May 13, 2009)

darren said:


> I've read that the piezo-driven options are much faster and track better than the magnetic under-string pickups.



Yeah, I've had an itchy trigger finger for the GT Ghost stuff for a long time now -- currently still really fuzzy about what's possible for 7 string options. I seem to understand that you can somehow sum the first and seventh strings to one output, so that you can use both (just not simultaneously), but GT has been less than informative or helpful in confirming that. Even Adam wasn't able to get a straight answer from them about it. I just absolutely cannot justify sending 2 smaller groups of strings to two separate converter boxes just to be able to use all 7 strings...

I just hope I figure out a viable solution for performance use soon. After I move at the end of the summer I'm trying to get a live DnB act together, and I'd _so much_ prefer for my end of if to come from guitar rather than keyboards, since I'll be incorporating 'analog' guitar anyway....


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## yingmin (May 13, 2009)

darren said:


> I think you're probably assuming too much.
> 
> SH 075 MIDI system with no complex setup
> 
> ...


I won't be convinced of that until I hear it from Shadow or someone who owns one of these. If you look at the SH075 itself, it does most of the things that a full-on guitar-to-MIDI system usually handles: pitch-bend on or off and range, mono or poly mode, tuning, transposing, direct access patch changes....all that is on the pickup console itself. By contrast, the distribution box....well, they just call it a "distribution box" and leave it at that. If the distribution box has any sort of processing power, they certainly don't feel compelled to tell you about it. It's also less than a quarter of the cost of the pickup itself, which is another hint at which part is the more significant. I'm going to email Shadow and ask them about this, but I really do think that the pickup is doing all the heavy lifting for this system. That's what makes it so different.


SplinteredSoul said:


> Well not to argue with you or anything man, but I was talking about the 80's Midi synth I used. Unless you can find it on their site, I'm not sure how you can argue with that. It was a signal-to-midi converter. That particular unit had no midi pickup as it was a separate rack unit.


I know you weren't talking about their current product. I was just responding to your assertion that there will always be a need for a breakout box of some king.


synrgy said:


> I'm just frustrated. After a year and a half, I have yet to be able to get my GK-3 to track reliably enough to even dream of using it in a live situation, and even then it's only giving me 6 of my 7 strings.
> 
> To make matters more frustrating, I was at a GC the other day, and they had a 'Roland ready Strat' hooked up to some Roland MIDI/Guitar shit, and it tracked BEAUTIFULLY. Mind you, it's the same M-F-ING pickup that I have, mounted on top of the body just like mine is, with the same amount of space between the strings and the pickup. This one works perfect, mine sucks ass. Go figure.


Have you adjusted the string sensitivity on your synth? Is the pickup the right height from the strings?


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## synrgy (May 13, 2009)

yingmin said:


> Have you adjusted the string sensitivity on your synth? Is the pickup the right height from the strings?


 
Yes, and yes. Well, sort of: I've complained about this before. The GK-3 has a pretty dratsically curved radius on it, presumably to match a typical strat setup. Unfortunately this doesn't jive with the radius' of any of my guitars, so no matter what I do, my bottom and top strings are always further away than the middle strings are.

So the middle ones will be practically touching the strings while there's a considerable distance between the outer strings and their pickups. Then I have to set the sensitivity on the outer strings to MAX, at which point they still don't track properly. 

You can 'adjust' the poles of the MIDI pickup, but they all move simultaneously -- you can't adjust their height individually, so that 'feature' is completely worthless to me. Because of this design, there is literally no difference at all between raising the poles or sticking one of the shims that comes with the GK-3 underneath it.


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## yingmin (May 13, 2009)

Just sent off an email to Shadow asking for clarification on how their system works. Depending on the answer I receive, I'll lay out my whole proposition before them and see what they say. Unfortunately, I got an auto-reply email telling me that the guy who answers those emails is out of the office until the 18th, so it'll be at least a week before I hear anything back.


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## technomancer (May 13, 2009)

I will bet you money the processing is in the large black box connected to the pickup. There is no way there is processor in that pickup itself.


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## synrgy (May 13, 2009)

technomancer said:


> I will be you money the processing is in the large black box connected to the pickup. There is no way there is processor in that pickup itself.



Yeah, I don't need to wait for confirmation to know that.


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## yingmin (May 13, 2009)

technomancer said:


> I will be you money the processing is in the large black box connected to the pickup. There is no way there is processor in that pickup itself.


Perhaps I just wasn't being clear: obviously, the small unit with pole pieces that goes underneath the strings is not doing all the processing. I was simply referring to that entire unit as the "pickup", in much the same way that a GK3 is referred to as a "pickup", not a "pickup and control console", or what have you. My point is that, per my understanding of their system, it's NOT being done in the breakout box, which is still significant. If all of the processing is done before the signal leaves your guitar, then we can be free of the Roland standard. Take away the huge numerical pad, move the knobs to a more convenient location, and the processor itself could probably fit inside your guitar.


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## SplinteredSoul (May 15, 2009)

yingmin said:


> I know you weren't talking about their current product. I was just responding to your assertion that there will always be a need for a breakout box of some king.?



Fair play man!



technomancer said:


> I will bet you money the processing is in the large black box connected to the pickup. There is no way there is processor in that pickup itself.



If it's a case of Asthetics, I don't see why this couldn't be strap mountable instead.



yingmin said:


> Perhaps I just wasn't being clear: obviously, the small unit with pole pieces that goes underneath the strings is not doing all the processing. I was simply referring to that entire unit as the "pickup", in much the same way that a GK3 is referred to as a "pickup", not a "pickup and control console", or what have you. My point is that, per my understanding of their system, it's NOT being done in the breakout box, which is still significant. If all of the processing is done before the signal leaves your guitar, then we can be free of the Roland standard. Take away the huge numerical pad, move the knobs to a more convenient location, and the processor itself could probably fit inside your guitar.



To throw a spanner in the works here, I wanted to join in. I've tried the "entirely midi pickup-less" methods of purely breakout mox audio-to-midi conversion, and it's great if you play monophonically, with kid gloves. Anything more than that, vibrato, powerchord, even at speed, and it doesn't know what you want, so the notes go haywire. This is where a dedicated Midi Pickup is a clear advantage (especially the Piezo kind).

With a dedicated pickup, it can pickup, and process, each string individually, for all it's merits, then recombine all that information in the VG-88 or breakout box, in order to be useful, and used how the Guitarist intended. It is a much more solid and reliable system, it's just that to date, this has not been made available for anything other than 6 Stringers.

Audio-To-Midi breakout boxes already exist, without need of pickup, for any purpose, if anyone wants to try them. But don't get too excited, most of the time it'll sound like a kitten playing with a ball of wool on a piano. Similarly, it will not acknowledge any dynamic changes. In fact, you have to practise playing without vibrato, with perfect intonation, and at a specific dynamic, just to get the single note you want. It's not practical in any way.


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## yingmin (May 15, 2009)

SplinteredSoul said:


> To throw a spanner in the works here, I wanted to join in. I've tried the "entirely midi pickup-less" methods of purely breakout mox audio-to-midi conversion, and it's great if you play monophonically, with kid gloves. Anything more than that, vibrato, powerchord, even at speed, and it doesn't know what you want, so the notes go haywire. This is where a dedicated Midi Pickup is a clear advantage (especially the Piezo kind).
> 
> With a dedicated pickup, it can pickup, and process, each string individually, for all it's merits, then recombine all that information in the VG-88 or breakout box, in order to be useful, and used how the Guitarist intended. It is a much more solid and reliable system, it's just that to date, this has not been made available for anything other than 6 Stringers.


I think you misunderstand what I'm proposing: I don't want to do away with the MIDI pickup and rely on pure audio-to-MIDI conversion, because I've seen how well that works. I just want to take the same technology they're using now and slim it down into a more managable form factor, and accomodate more (or less) than six string guitars. If it could be made to work with piezo saddles, and mounted inside a guitar, that would be a big step forward. The way their current system seems to operate, I see no reason why you couldn't put together a system for 7, 8, 10, 13 strings or what have you that works off the same basic principles as what they offer now.


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## SplinteredSoul (May 15, 2009)

yingmin said:


> I think you misunderstand what I'm proposing: I don't want to do away with the MIDI pickup and rely on pure audio-to-MIDI conversion, because I've seen how well that works. I just want to take the same technology they're using now and slim it down into a more managable form factor, and accomodate more (or less) than six string guitars. If it could be made to work with piezo saddles, and mounted inside a guitar, that would be a big step forward. The way their current system seems to operate, I see no reason why you couldn't put together a system for 7, 8, 10, 13 strings or what have you that works off the same basic principles as what they offer now.




I didn't misunderstand, I just wanted to draw clear differences for those that don't know  I'm sure pitch recognition alone is one thing, but the tracking is going to be another, especially when finger picking, pick usage, or even bowed stringed instruments will track differently.

Hell man, I just want to mix orchestral sounds with my Guitar!


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## darren (May 15, 2009)

Anything is possible, but they'd pretty much have to re-engineer their conversion box to accommodate a different number of strings. I'm making a big assumption here in guessing that there's not likely six separate little processors in there and they can just add another one. It's more likely a fully integrated system that was designed from the ground up to work with six strings, so redesigning it for more (or fewer) strings would be a pretty big engineering effort.


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## technomancer (May 15, 2009)

Here's an idea, ignoring commercial manufacturers. Get piezo saddles, build a preamp so the signal can be sent out from one saddle. Run the output to a computer input. Run software to convert the input signal to midi.

I've seen a decent VERY small preamp design to do the above, only problem is it outputs a balanced signal and finding a computer interface with 6+ balanced inputs is hard. I've also seen a couple of audio to midi VST and AU plugins floating around.


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## SplinteredSoul (Jun 4, 2009)

technomancer said:


> Here's an idea, ignoring commercial manufacturers. Get piezo saddles, build a preamp so the signal can be sent out from one saddle. Run the output to a computer input. Run software to convert the input signal to midi.
> 
> I've seen a decent VERY small preamp design to do the above, only problem is it outputs a balanced signal and finding a computer interface with 6+ balanced inputs is hard. I've also seen a couple of audio to midi VST and AU plugins floating around.



that means relying on a PC. True there are some amazing VSTi's out there, but I don't trust a computer live. I'd be much happier with a dedicated tone module that was purpose built ... but that's me


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## ShiftKey (Nov 20, 2009)

(necro) 

any more news on this at all?


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