# I think people nowadays care more about production than about the music...



## yidcorer (Jun 6, 2011)

Yes. If you think about it, most influential albums/bands had records with terrible production. You may say "back in the day, recording devices were primitive and lo-fi sounding". Probably, but if a not-famous James Hetfield could travel in time and post on this forum some samples from "...and justice for all", people would bash the guitar tone, the lack of bass and the drums. 

The same would happen with great metal/rock albums whose audio quality isn´t pristine. You know what? People didn´t care, and you shouldn´t care either. The music is there and that´s all that matters at the end of the day. Of course, noise in a recording and mediocre playing are tabus, but I still don´t understand why people nowadays care if some kHz are out of place, if some frequencies are boosted while others are being cutted off. 

Will the non-musicians who listen to your stuff care? Or do you think you can achieve a perfect mix? There isn´t such a thing. Not even Bulb, who is hailed on guitar forums for making an actually good job on Periphery´s debut, is known for making perfect mixes. While many dig his music and admire his producing abilities, there are still quite a few that will be quick to point at the things they don´t like about his recordings/mixes. 

The same can be said about Animals as Leaders. The debut album is full of inspiring tunes and ideas, so does anyone really care about the clipping guitars, fake drums, fake amps and compressed sound? No, and who should?

If you read all that, I say "thank you". And excuse the broken English.


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## natspotats (Jun 6, 2011)

bravo my good sir


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## SirMyghin (Jun 6, 2011)

I agree completely that production is a bit over focussed, however in converse learning production tricks, particularly around here, has improved the overall percieved quality of what I can turn out from my home studio.


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## flo (Jun 6, 2011)

yidcorer said:


> The same can be said about Animals as Leaders. The debut album is full of inspiring tunes and ideas, so does anyone really care about the clipping guitars, fake drums, fake amps and compressed sound? No, and who should?



Funny what you say about the aal sound, i've got the album on my mp3-player, and the guitar sounds so damn clear, it makes everything else sound muddy in comparison  And I _love_ the sound!

I think that sound is important, but like you say, the rest of the music is what's really interesting and important. like having something to say compared to what voice you've got.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 6, 2011)

The production is a medium to deliver the intensity and emotional impact the music makes, so I believe that yours is a moot point. Good production can make a good riff sound amazing, I firmly believe that. Why do you think so many albums get remastered? Production is like films, you're never going to take a step back in terms of quality because it just doesn't make sense. 

I'm also sick of people trying to make "raw" records because it's so contrived, it's such a hipster mentality. Good production delivers good music, and if you have both then you've won. If you have one of the two, chances are you are interesting to listen to, but you won't be listened to as much as albums that have both.


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## KingAenarion (Jun 6, 2011)

I think it's a small circle of musicians only though.

MOST musicians know very little about recording and production...

Within the Metal scene, and particularly with guitar, it's quite a big deal, simply because to understand how to get that sound of your favourite band there's a lot more involved than with, say, Angus Young. 

I mean look at the likes of Metallica's backstage guitar rig... then look at Angus Youngs. Guitar> Amp turned up really loud.... that's it.

Or an Indie band who's guitarist just uses his guitar > pedalboard with some FX into a Fender Twin.


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## Customisbetter (Jun 6, 2011)

I thought the AAL album sounded great. The only late album that disappointed me production-wise was Circa Survives latest effort which had noticable clipping a couple times. other than that mixes and overall tracks on htis forum alone sound miles better than that abomination that is Death Magnetic.


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## AlphaSenate (Jun 6, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> The production is a medium to deliver the intensity and emotional impact the music makes, so I believe that yours is a moot point. Good production can make a good riff sound amazing, I firmly believe that. Why do you think so many albums get remastered? Production is like films, you're never going to take a step back in terms of quality because it just doesn't make sense.




I totally agree, I think that production has a huge role to play in todays music, unfortunately for some musicians, whatever be the genre this heavy focus can lead to a hampering of creativity, "I mean, yeah great tone but my god that riff sucks". Also in an effort to provided the best medium to deliver your message it can get lost. I guess the trick is experience, knowing the tricks and such but isn't that why we had producers? "Wait! I wanna make tunes at home" I hear you cry!. And you'd be right. We can't all hire "Mr Tonemaster Mcfatass Snare" to get our tunes banging so we listen, we tweak to get it sounding good... no forgive me, get it sounding amazing. Good isn't enough these days. 

And here in lies my main point, whatever you may feel about production its here to stay, why? The public. People need to hear highly polished recordings or they switch off, they don't care that none of the original band actually played, as long as it fits in with what they consider modern.


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## Ben.Last (Jun 6, 2011)

It's a matter of balance. There's such a thing as focusing too much or too little on production in relation to what the music is saying.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 6, 2011)

IMO, it really depends on the music at the end of the day. 

I do agree that production is a medium to deliver the intensity and emotional impact the music makes. Do the listeners care? Superficially, no. But really they do. You can hear radio friendly rock/pop music from a mile away. Even casual listeners were complaining about Death Magnetic. But there's more to it, because it's still about the music. 

Today's standards, everything needs to be highly produced. That's why guys like John Feldman doesn't bother with analog production at all. He once stated that kids nowadays have become acustomed to the digital sound and that "warm analog" of the past just sounds muffled. Then again, John Feldman's credits include a majority of generic radio rock bands. All of them really are just that, aimed specifically for radio airplay. Feldman knows that, and he will make all the bands he produces/co-writes with aware of that. It's subjective if their songs are good or bad, but they've extremely well produced and taylor made for the radio. 

But of course all of today's standards requires an alternative. The garage rock movement was the response of "over-produced" music. So there's another choice there too. I can't really imagine the Strokes to be full of massive production values (well maybe the third album), but then again I was never a fan of the Strokes to begin with.  

Then again, some rough and raw bands actually benefit very well from production. Nirvana's Nevermind, is produced by Butch Vig after all. And the last few Kings Of Leon albums actually sound like the band is playing directly in front of you. 

But 'good' production is subjective as well. The majority of this forum caught in a djent bubble heralds Periphery's production as the metal equivalent of the Second Coming of Christ, but to many others, Periphery is very cold and sterile... one even commented as almost n00bish production techniques. No disrespect to bulb of course, but I understand both sides of the spectrum. Periphery, and a majority of the djent music out there in general, actually benefit from this kind of sound. Be it, completely cold, sterile, clear, digital, whatever the listener describes it, their music calls for it. It works for them. Remember when bulb mentioned how his guitar sound is meant to be cold and mechanic and may not work for other musicians. 

The same goes with a lot of any music to do with Colin Richardson/Andy Sneap/Matt Hyde and the like. Notice that a lot of their bands are mostly of Thrash/Death nature? And it's great for them. My band's latest album is being engineered by Matt Hyde, and while I won't reveal any secrets, it's safe to say that it's geared towards thrash, and may not work with other kinds of metal. Pantera albums... another side of the story. Scooped guitars on tap, by many standards that sound is garbage, but works best with Pantera, and hence one of the most sought after metal tones of the 90s. 

And the biggest example of them all: The Black Album. A year and a half, and 3 marriages later, Metallica released what is still considered by many as one of the best produced albums of all time. There are many many MANY factors: multi tracked guitars, backing vocals, string sections, subtle instrument parts...etc, all to make the album sound huge. 

But regardless of all of the above, if the song calls for a bit more attention in production, by all means do so. But at the same time, the old saying goes: no matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd.


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## btfsam (Jun 6, 2011)

> if a not-famous James Hetfield could travel in time and post on this forum some samples from "...and justice for all", people would bash the guitar tone, the lack of bass and the drums.



I think before we bashed it we would help him with the mix/tone etc.
I love a good sounding production almost as much as I love good playing, just sounds good to the ears. Can either one of these make up for one another? No


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## Thep (Jun 6, 2011)

Listen to the remakes of Suffocation classics on recent records compared with the originals and tell me production doesn't matter....


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## Blasphemer (Jun 6, 2011)

This is definitely true. I once had someone argue with me that they didnt like An Endless Sporadic because of the production value (this was before the full length was released, and he was only going by the demos quality).
This wouldn't have bothered me, except I KNEW if it had pro-quality recording on it he would have loved it, because the music was right up his alley...


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## Yaris (Jun 7, 2011)

I have thought about this before, but when I listen to music, I find enjoyment in hearing things that sound good. Both the music and the production can contribute to how good something sounds, giving me pleasure. Of course, different kinds of music benefit from different styles of production.


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## FOAM (Jun 7, 2011)

Well, in the 80's Metallica's production was probably above average anyways. I agree on you to some extent. Music IS more important than the mix, but there needs to be a balance. Metallica's early production doesn't sound too bad and the great music makes me forget about it, but if the production was even worse - like garage bad - I wouldn't bother... I don't know where I'm going with this, I'm just going to shut up, lol.


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## tr0n (Jun 7, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> the old saying goes: no matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd.



This is so true, it's one of the few basic rules I believe about production. I believe _pre_-production is vital, because that's where stuff like composition and arrangements etc are investigated. But for post-production, (not that self-produced guys necessarily think of it this way), it's more of a vehicle that frames the music and prepares it for delivery. You get so many people on forums like these posting 'mix-tests' or a new song every five minutes. It seems to me that people are trying to appear prolific because that was a bit like what Bulb was when he was starting out. The exception is that Bulb's stuff was just brilliant, and you can't assume that the loudness/static dynamics of his production are what got him to where he is. I would encourage anyone to think more about what they're actually composing and worry about the production later. As Andy Sneap said, so long as stuff is well recorded, a song should theoretically mix itself. And here you insert the quote above.


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## Ben.Last (Jun 7, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> But at the same time, the old saying goes: no matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd.



Mythbusters actually disproved that.


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## JamesM (Jun 7, 2011)

TL;DR, but I 115% agree with the thread title.


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## Antenna (Jun 7, 2011)

A gorgeous girl takes a picture of herself naked with a shitty cellphone, guys say "wow she's fucking hott!".

Same girl takes the same shot but with an HD camera and photoshops it, Everyone faints due to zero blood flow to their head. /thread.


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## JamesM (Jun 7, 2011)

While I think that's a valid argument, I think that's missing the point.


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## Antenna (Jun 7, 2011)

well yeah there will always be a fag that points out that he's gay thus it doesn't work for his tastes but then everyone just fag pummels him and continues to drool.


is that better?


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## JamesM (Jun 7, 2011)

Yes.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 7, 2011)

Lern2swim said:


> Mythbusters actually disproved that.


 
...which leads me to another point that I may have hinted on my first post. I explained how John Feldman's production techniques are clearly aimed for the radio pop audience, but there's now there's something else that's very evident in the radio that needs to be discussed: THE AUTOTUNE. 

Cher drove everybody insane with it, yet Believe went to number 1. Then there's a horde of pre-pubescent kids doing shoddy pop covers of School's Out and Mamma Mia autotuned to the rim. I suppose we can view it as an effect filter for vocals, but nowadays almost every song on the radio has this on. Hell, Lil Wayne has proudly praised the Autotune for validating his entire career. 

The reason I bought this up, because like what I said earlier, the average casual listener will not superficially care if the music is autotuned or not... or have we come to a point in time where the autotune has become so apparent in the radiowaves that the ears of this generation have, dare I say, acustomed to it? Most of us musicians treat the autotune with open disdain, but would the average casual music/radio listener care either way whether the music is autotuned or not? And if not, have many of the music producers already decided that the Autotune has not only become an important part of production, but a focal distinct feature of the music?

Despite my rather "unhealty" wealth of knowledge of Japanese Pop, I don't listen to radio at all, or at least try not to listen to mainstream radio at all anyway. I have heard some new stuff from my sister's ever surprising iTunes shuffle, and hearing a bunch of new songs like "I Just Had Sex" or whatever songs whoever this Akon guy is... almost ALL of what's on pop radio now has Autotune. 

Then it goes back to my initial point on it all depends on the music first and that good production cannot disguse a bad song. Hearing whatever I heard recently, it all the same. A lot of the songs are carbon copies of great songs of the past, or just contrived hits-for-the-sake-of-hits etc. But the production (sans autotune) is tailor made to be great for radio listeners. 

Looks like we are polishing turds after all... 

At least Joe Satriani's using the Autotune a little differently...


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## Antenna (Jun 7, 2011)

wow i didn't know joe satriani collaborated with ke$ha


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## DrunkyMunky (Jun 8, 2011)

Music with over 9000 layers of crap bores me. I wish there were more live performances sold on DVD/CD/Whatever... I would stop buying studio albums if I could.

Good production can polish a turd, and maybe that's why there are so many "artists" around: you can disguise their lack of talent and profit anyway.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 8, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> I agree completely that production is a bit over focussed, however in converse learning production tricks, particularly around here, has improved the overall percieved quality of what I can turn out from my home studio.


 
This. 

I say whatever works. And honestly, the fact that you can get away with not being super-god-virtuoso-musician-supreme with a little production magic, you'd be stupid to not go for it if making money is your main concern. Music is not just an art. It's also a business. 

That having been said... I'm currently rockin' some Miles Davis in my headphones. All of his recordings sound like someone sat there at a show w/ a Talk Boy and recorded everything, but I love it. However, I am not the masses. For the masses it's all about presentation. 

Think of it this way... You get a dinner cooked by a 10 billion star chef... It's the most delicious food IN THE WORLD (for the sake of my example) but he/she puts it together in a way that simply looks less appealing than what you'd expect from a chef with his/her type of reputation. How many ppl do you think are likely to complain about it before even biting into it?`


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 8, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> Music is not just an art. It's also a business.
> 
> Think of it this way... You get a dinner cooked by a 10 billion star chef... It's the most delicious food IN THE WORLD (for the sake of my example) but he/she puts it together in a way that simply looks less appealing than what you'd expect from a chef with his/her type of reputation. How many ppl do you think are likely to complain about it before even biting into it?`



Thread = over. Konfyouzd wins again. Please collect your prize from your nearest win dealer.


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## Winspear (Jun 8, 2011)

I think they are equally important. I view music as 'sound', and of course production is a huge part of the sound. 

Of course I can appreciate good music within a crappy recording, but that doesn't take away from the fact it's a crappy recording and is therefore a lot less enjoyable to listen to. And vice versa.


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## The Reverend (Jun 8, 2011)

The OP doesn't make any sense.

Can anyone give me a few examples of songs that are brilliant, but have been ruined by exceptional production? I'd like to know how a well-produced, well-written song fails.

IMO, if you like raw, under-produced or even badly-produced music, you're probably a musical elitist or a hipster (and no, the two aren't mutually inclusive). It's a different story if you like something IN SPITE of that, so don't go posting examples and misquoting me. 

Why are we even talking about radio music? For the most part, it's not made as art to begin with, so trying to discredit it in an artistic sense is a moot point. It's not music, it's product. There's a difference, although it can be hard to tell, sometimes.

ADTR comes to mind...


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## Radicz0r (Jun 8, 2011)

Well, for instance people now are all over the WII, while the SNES had way superior gameplay. But who plays the snes anymore? Nobody, because : 1. There aren't any more games coming out, and 2, it's not the standard anymore. Personally, i'd prefer a ps3 and a nice revamp of Mega Man X. /figurative speech.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 8, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> IMO, if you like raw, under-produced or even badly-produced music, you're probably a musical elitist or a hipster (and no, the two aren't mutually inclusive). It's a different story if you like something IN SPITE of that, so don't go posting examples and misquoting me.



I'm sorry, I know you said not to post examples and misquoute you, but I can't help but post this:



Again, the production is subjective. But it's pure, raw anger and hate caught in 29 minutes, and by that, it's considered one of the angriest records ever made and is still a standard to a lot of metal albums. 



The Reverend said:


> Why are we even talking about radio music? For the most part, it's not made as art to begin with, so trying to discredit it in an artistic sense is a moot point. It's not music, it's product. There's a difference, although it can be hard to tell, sometimes.
> 
> ADTR comes to mind...



Because there's every now and then there's some great pop music in the radio that's also considered art. And even all of that is subjective. Michael Jackson, Toto, etc... Ok it's very easy to generalise radio music as product purely for the masses... in some cases yes, and it's also a producer to do just that. Others, not so. 

But again, my original point still stands, it really depends on the music.


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## The Reverend (Jun 8, 2011)

Radicz0r said:


> Well, for instance people now are all over the WII, while the SNES had way superior gameplay. But who plays the snes anymore? Nobody, because : 1. There aren't any more games coming out, and 2, it's not the standard anymore. Personally, i'd prefer a ps3 and a nice revamp of Mega Man X. /figurative speech.



Personal taste is one thing. I mean, you can't really be objective when it comes to things you like, as it's generally out of your control, but let's try with your analogy, only I'm gonna tweak it a bit.

Imagine pitting the best SNES game (whatever that might mean) against the best Wii game, having no experience with or knowledge of either game or system. Which do you think will win?

I don't know how this relates to production value in music, though.


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## The Reverend (Jun 8, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> I'm sorry, I know you said not to post examples and misquoute you, but I can't help but post this:
> 
> 
> 
> Again, the production is subjective. But it's pure, raw anger and hate caught in 29 minutes, and by that, it's considered one of the angriest records ever made and is still a standard to a lot of metal albums.




The first riff with the driving triplets? Imagine how much more angry that would sound with today's production. I don't think that muffled-ass kick conveys much anger, really. A brutal, pounding double-bass drum like we usually have today would've really upped the intensity of that part.

But like I said, liking songs in spite of questionable production isn't what I was talking about. And that's not even the kind of example I asked for, actually.

Show me well-written songs, with good production, and point out where they fail because the production ISN'T bad.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 8, 2011)

I can't see the video posted but I'm guessing it's Pantera? Their production suits the music almost perfectly, but if re-recorded today they would obviously be much better. Check out Sylosis' cover of Strength Beyond Strength on YouTube, they nailed the tone but it's so much clearer and beefier.


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## Radicz0r (Jun 8, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> Personal taste is one thing. I mean, you can't really be objective when it comes to things you like, as it's generally out of your control, but let's try with your analogy, only I'm gonna tweak it a bit.
> 
> Imagine pitting the best SNES game (whatever that might mean) against the best Wii game, having no experience with or knowledge of either game or system. Which do you think will win?
> 
> I don't know how this relates to production value in music, though.



The WII, because the snes isn't the standard anymore. But your question needs to be rephrased to be relevant since we're talking about new releases.

So, what would be the most popular game if both were brought out on either HD WII and one on 16 bit SNES? 

Besides that it's also unlikely since the technology to create a snes game hasn't been used for a long time as well.


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## Dannyboi (Jun 8, 2011)

A good song that is produced poorly is a waste of good song.
A bad song is produced really well is a waste of production.

A good song produced really well...


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 8, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> The first riff with the driving triplets? Imagine how much more angry that would sound with today's production. I don't think that muffled-ass kick conveys much anger, really. A brutal, pounding double-bass drum like we usually have today would've really upped the intensity of that part.
> 
> But like I said, liking songs in spite of questionable production isn't what I was talking about. And that's not even the kind of example I asked for, actually.
> 
> Show me well-written songs, with good production, and point out where they fail because the production ISN'T bad.



To be honest, I can't imagine Reign In Blood any other way. To polish it up with production of "today's standards" IMO would cheapen it. And if it was well produced then, and that album along with Justice wouldn't have inspired a legion of death metal bands that a lot of people in this forum love today. 

I think we may be on the same page here... My original post was actually a counter-response to the OP where the music comes first, and production is there to enhance it. I've already made examples of bands that benefit from raw production, but I also confess that I'm not a fan of them... with the exception of Reign In Blood of course. 

And also regarding the producer's role... it's not just the sound quality, but also a lot of the songcraft that they play a big responsibility to as well. Jason Suceof co-writes with almost every band he produces (he'll go as far as to even perform in them too). I wouldn't be surprised if he actually heavily modifies a song prior or during recording before the finished product. John Feldman (again) does the same thing. It's actually this part of production that IMO is completely overlooked in this thread, hence why I mentioned it in my original post. It isn't all just tweaking knobs.


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## avenger (Jun 8, 2011)

Dannyboi said:


> A good song that is produced poorly is a waste of good song.
> A bad song is produced really well is a *top 40 hit.*
> 
> A good song produced really well...


fixed that up for you


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 8, 2011)




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## Antenna (Jun 8, 2011)

*mod edit: if you have a problem with being rep pm a mod, don't complain about it in a thread*


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## in-pursuit (Jun 8, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> And also regarding the producer's role... it's not just the sound quality, but also a lot of the songcraft that they play a big responsibility to as well. Jason Suceof co-writes with almost every band he produces (he'll go as far as to even perform in them too). I wouldn't be surprised if he actually heavily modifies a song prior or during recording before the finished product. John Feldman (again) does the same thing. It's actually this part of production that IMO is completely overlooked in this thread, hence why I mentioned it in my original post. It isn't all just tweaking knobs.



this is one of the things that really piss me off about "producers". not that i will ever need to work with a producer for my music, but if the situation came about and i was in the studio being told to change this, play this part slower, use this chord instead, maybe this song should be in 4/4 so the kids can dance to it etc etc.... i would walk straight out of there and never go back. i make the music, if i didn't think it was good enough i'd still be writing and tweaking it, not trying to get it to tape in a studio.

i just think if you need some guy to smooth out the rough edges of your songwriting you should probably re-evaluate where your songwriting skills are at before you blow a tonne of money in a studio. fair enough if the producer in question is your idol or something and you WANT to collaborate with them, but insisting to have creative control over every band you produce? come on now....


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## SirMyghin (Jun 8, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> At least Joe Satriani's using the Autotune a little differently...




Never knew he used Autotune there, cool. I caught that tune live, he reproduces it very well with nothing except his trusty Wah.


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## yidcorer (Jun 8, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> Of course I can appreciate good music within a crappy recording, but that doesn't take away from the fact it's a crappy recording and is therefore a lot less enjoyable to listen to. And vice versa.



But I wasn´t referring to crappy recordings. Imagine a band that records a song well, a good song. The production is nothing otherwordly. Would that affect the music´s quality, considering the band played the song well? 

Nowadays music is overproduced. You can not only feel it, you can hear it. 



The Reverend said:


> The OP doesn't make any sense.



No, he doesn´t.



The Reverend said:


> Can anyone give me a few examples of songs that are brilliant, but have been ruined by exceptional production?



Symphony X´s first album. Michael Romeo´s solo album. Andromeda´s discography. Skyfire´s discography. I love this song, for example:



Doesn´t it sound like they recorded it at a cheap studio? 



Radicz0r said:


> Well, for instance people now are all over the WII, while the SNES had way superior gameplay. But who plays the snes anymore?



Believe me. I´d love to be 12 again and play super mario world. That would be a billion times better than holding that WII stick in my hand and looking like a kid with tourettes while playing bowl or tennis with it.



The Reverend said:


> Imagine how much more angry that would sound with today's production. I don't think that muffled-ass kick conveys much anger, really. A brutal, pounding double-bass drum like we usually have today would've really upped the intensity of that part.
> .



I read on SOS recently that the power of a metal recording doesn´t come from whatever studio techniques being used. It comes from the band itself. Slayer sounds angry because it is Slayer. Not because the sound is raw or because the kick sounds like this or that. So how should Slayer sound? Mastered to death? With fake kick drums courtesy of DFH?

Sometimes I think that this production-craze has made bands sound the same...


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 8, 2011)

in-pursuit said:


> this is one of the things that really piss me off about "producers". not that i will ever need to work with a producer for my music, but if the situation came about and i was in the studio being told to change this, play this part slower, use this chord instead, maybe this song should be in 4/4 so the kids can dance to it etc etc.... i would walk straight out of there and never go back. i make the music, if i didn't think it was good enough i'd still be writing and tweaking it, not trying to get it to tape in a studio.
> 
> i just think if you need some guy to smooth out the rough edges of your songwriting you should probably re-evaluate where your songwriting skills are at before you blow a tonne of money in a studio. fair enough if the producer in question is your idol or something and you WANT to collaborate with them, but insisting to have creative control over every band you produce? come on now....


 
You've raised some good points too. Once again it goes back that it really depends on the music. If the music is strong enough to stand on it's own, then a producer's job is to capture what that song is all about onto a recording. That's why different kinds of producers exist out there. Steve Vai is a great example of one who's vision is completely solidified. Most of his work is written, produced and engineered by Steve himself. He's already made sure all the homework is done even before pre-production. 

At the same time, some bands need producers for direction. Dr Feelgood and the Black Album wouldn't be the same without Bob Rock. Nickleback wouldn't be as huge (in both success and massive production) without Mutt Lange. And believe it or not, Never Mind The Bollocks just wouldn't be what it is without producer guidance. Sometimes a band requires that outside influence with an open mind to give the songs just the right lift. I do agree that some producers do tend to interfere a bit, for better or worse. 

Again, it depends on the music and it's writer.


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## Andromalia (Jun 8, 2011)

Production matters more now because more people have access to it. I mean, the Beatles would likely have killed to get what I have in my bedroom today.
Production is relative, you compare record X production to record Z who set a standard. There is no absolute. (Ok, if you hear the cat mewing in the background, maybe there is)


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## scottro202 (Jun 9, 2011)

I think it all depends on what the music calls for.

The Black Keys would sound like shit if they had the production of say.....Bulb. Even though a lot of the members of this forum love his production (myself included), the Black Keys music would be hurt by that style of production....WAY to digital for a band like that.

But, if Periphery decided to record with a 4-track tape recorder like the Black keys did for Thickfreakness, everybody on this forum would cringe and get their pitchforks and torches ready and haul ass to Bethesda, MD because it would simply sound like shit for that band/music.

BUT.... Do Periphery with Bulb's production or the Black Keys with their production sound like shit? Most would say they don't.


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## Nerd Destroyer (Jun 9, 2011)

In general, people still don't really care at all. Members of a forum like this are mostly musicians and bedroom producers, so it gets talked about a lot, but we are a very, very small minority when it comes to overall music listeners. 

That being said though, we should be mature and intelligent enough to recognize a good musician even if their production skills are lacking (and vice versa).


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## Speculum Speculorum (Jun 9, 2011)

Production is a tool, man. Don't put the cart in front of the horse. In the right hands, great production is a force to be reckoned with.

But you are writing like you expect some magical transition in popular music to happen which will transform Taylor Swift into Beethoven. Unfortunately, no. It's a money-making empire based off of the fact that large quantities of humanity have, for quite some time, not cared at all about the artistic credibility of the media that they consume. 

I, for one, am incredibly excited about all of the technology that is available to me to pursue previously unheard of sound quality in a home studio. In addition, the ability to send off files to a mastering studio that will finish the product at a cost that has never been more affordable, I'm a pretty happy art music composer.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 9, 2011)

Nerd Destroyer said:


> In general, people still don't really care at all. Members of a forum like this are mostly musicians and bedroom producers, so it gets talked about a lot, but we are a very, very small minority when it comes to overall music listeners.
> 
> That being said though, we should be mature and intelligent enough to recognize a good musician even if their production skills are lacking (and vice versa).



Well put. One of the best "First posts" I've seen around.

I never paid attention to production before I started to listen to music analytically. It really didn't matter. And yea and averabe listener nowadays doesn't care about production than music. It's us that do.


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## Winspear (Jun 10, 2011)

^ I wouldn't say that's true. I'd say the average listener isn't _aware_ of the production but they certainly care. I'm sure the majority of pop fans wouldn't like songs nearly as much if they weren't mixed and mastered to sound big.


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## DrewsifStalin (Jun 10, 2011)

If you're looking for people who care about the music more than the production you probably shouldn't be in the recording section...


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## Lon (Jun 10, 2011)

Djent... Sterile?
At this moment i'm blasting Eureka from the Icarus EP, and the Guitars are waaaaaay to over-fatty-ated and theres too much verb on it to ever be considered sterile, at least for my Ears (Snooki want smushmush)

and what i really wanted to say:
Thank GOD for the little production craze, its just... its 2011, bulb was the first one who prooved for a broad audience you can do at least listenable stuff at home, so why should i bother listening to bad production which is ususally accompanied by medicore riffs? If i listen to a forumers self produced clip i absolutely include the production in my quality-perception of the music, because anybody can do a at least listenable production, its just about how much heart and blood you put in.

add: and whilst i do NOT value medicore/bad music + good production over superb music with bad production (there are tons of below-medicore metalcore bands with huge productions on youtube) i just can't take bad produced clips serious... even if its the most genius stuff ever to be heard, in my equation the production just shows how serious a musician is about his craft, whilst i do not expect sneap'ish comings of a religious figure productions but at least so it does not sound like the speaker is blowing itself out


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## TreWatson (Jun 10, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> the old saying goes: no matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd.



Tell that to joey sturgis, he does that for a living.

LOL, elitism is fun!

but yes, i agree as well. the music is always more important than the production, but its also why most black metal irritates me. i can;t listen to shit production. i like to HEAR everything instead of poorly masking elements and calling it atmosphere, etc etc.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 10, 2011)

As an add to the above,

People that know how to write good music (in the sense of wether masses like it) know also how to produce it good. They have a vision of sound and way the music should sound.

And again people that don't know how to write music that makes it big, don't know how to produce it good. (Or some do, but that's a minority)

It's not happening by chance, it's all correlating.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 10, 2011)

DrewsifStalin said:


> If you're looking for people who care about the music more than the production you probably shouldn't be in the recording section...



I had the exact same thought when I first saw the thread title.


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## C2Aye (Jun 10, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I had the exact same thought when I first saw the thread title.



True enough 

Some of the mixes I've heard here are bloody fantastic though. I don't know about you but it makes me feel the same when I hear guys like Guthrie Govan and Tosin Abasi play guitar. But instead of, "I need to play guitar as good as these guys!", it's "I need to get my mixes sounding as good as these guys!"

Striving for better can never be a bad thing. And 'bad' music is generally a subjective thing. So if we strive to become better at production, then that's a good thing! And maybe someone will listen to a mix we've done and think, 'man, I need to sound like this and get better at production!'.

In my opinion, when there is the means to improve your production, it would be wrong not to at least try improve in that area. After all, being fickle humans we like nice sounding things.

As for music, well, it's up to whoever listens to decided for themselves whether its good or bad in their minds. You can just write what you write


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## Antenna (Jun 10, 2011)

DrewsifStalin said:


> If you're looking for people who care about the music more than the production you probably shouldn't be in the recording section...


 
Drew to the rescue!


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## Nerd Destroyer (Jun 10, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> ^ I wouldn't say that's true. I'd say the average listener isn't _aware_ of the production but they certainly care. I'm sure the majority of pop fans wouldn't like songs nearly as much if they weren't mixed and mastered to sound big.



Oh for sure, I completely agree. But at the same time, when I walk around campus these days I'm always amazed by how many kids out there are perfectly content to listen to those well produced songs through terrible, terrible, terrible speakers. Cheap poor quality headphones... laptop speakers... even cell phone speakers... ugh. I'm aware sound quality and production are two different things, but to me that's pretty indicative that the average person is more into the words / melody / rhythm than anything else.


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## asdrummer2008 (Jun 10, 2011)

I feel like the music, the mix, and the production are all equally important. All are an art in their own form. And if a person were to take the time and effort into each of these elements, it serves for a REALLY good song.

And producing is really relative to time. Pink Floyd would have been considered some what "over produced" for their time... just like a lot of bands today would be considered "over produced" for our time... In fact, Pink Floyd was one of the first bands to mess with psychoacoustics both inside of a mix and as well as live performances!!! Talk about "futuristic"!

So to make a statement along the lines of saying the influential bands of "back in the day" had terrible production and didn't really care about their mixes is fairly inaccurate... Because they cared a lot about how their mixes sounded and how they were produced... 

Also, a lot of tools that are used for mixing today are based off of analog gear of the past (and present if you can afford it...). 70% of my plug ins are based off of actual analog gear. The only thing stopping me from having the real thing is money... So if they really didn't care about how it sounded "back in the day", then why would major companies today go to the extent of having plug ins designed to at least give the home engineer a taste of what an actual SSL bus compressor does, or how the API 2500 does, or how a channel EQ off of an SSL does? 

If all they cared about "back in the day" was the music, then our mixes right now would probably be similar to the mixes of the 80's and 90's... Imagine Matt Halpern's drums and cymbals with some sweet tape saturation on them!


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## cwhitey2 (Jun 10, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> But at the same time, the old saying goes: no matter how hard you try, you can't polish a turd.



i could not agree more 

my band is in the process of writing our ep, its pretty much complete with the exception that i want to go in and fine tune every little detail. My bassist is questioning me as to why i would do this. I just ask him 'whats the point of having an amazingly produced album that is empty?' I am by no means an amazing guitarist but i want to put out a quality product that people will enjoy and doesn't sound like crap.


I think a lot of bands overlook their actual songs and want good recordings. You have to start with something good if you ever expect to make it anywhere lol I don't want to be one of those bands that has great production but the album bores you.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 10, 2011)

So we've determined what? Production is just a means of polishing what's already there. And sometimes it can make a flawed stone just shiney enough to pass as a gem. 

How you interpret the terms in that analogy are entirely up to you. I feel like it's pretty self explanatory to anyone who's kept up w/ this thread, though.


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## Adversor (Jun 11, 2011)

TreWatson said:


> the music is always more important than the production, but its also why most black metal irritates me. i can;t listen to shit production. i like to HEAR everything instead of poorly masking elements and calling it atmosphere, etc etc.



Well, hello there...


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## Cynic (Jun 11, 2011)

ITT: OP makes statement to cover up personal shortcomings.

inb4mad


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## Iheartmidgetbooty (Jun 12, 2011)

I do agree with the OP somewhat, some music is overproduced.

Bands that deserve this notion are also horribly unattractive chuggy bands that include Chelsea Grin, (hate to say it but I love this band because of the production) OCEANO, Impending Doom...So on and so forth...There are tons of examples we all know and hate. These bands kind of give Deathcore a horrible name... Though, a lot of some deathcore bands are actually pretty tasteful.

Then there's something that the average musician needs when listening to their favorite music... ARTICULATION.

Articulation and clarity is something that I, as a guitarist and vocalist, need to have in order to understand favorite parts of my favorite songs so that I can apply their elements to my own songwriting process. Drummers would fucking destroy shit if they couldn't quite hear the tom rolls, free hand rolls, herts' or cymbal work in a song. This is how most musicians evolve. They get more into technical songs as they progress and have desire to play more technically in order to grow. And, as it has shown, the more technical your music is when recording... The harder it is to get that 'articulation' through the mix.

As for Kirk Hammet... Fuck him, he was snortin' some crazy shit and didn't realize how bad his tone was. I for one, hold him up highly as an idol of inspiration. I wouldn't have anything to say about his tone anywho, as the sound has already become 'classic' in my ears.

Production as other things, has devoloped more and more along with the devopment of technology. Learn to roll with the changes man. Expect some shit to sound good because of it, and just train your ear to know what is legit and what is not. Simple as that.


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## Lon (Jun 12, 2011)

just to add some rant: kids today consume music through atrocious sound reproducing systems, this is why you need a top notch production, you know how a brilliantly produced song sounds through a cellphone speaker... imagine how a badly produced song sounds...



Iheartmidgetbooty said:


> As for Kirk Hammet... Fuck him, he was snortin' some crazy shit and didn't realize how bad his tone was. I for one, hold him up highly as an idol of inspiration. I wouldn't have anything to say about his tone anywho, as the sound has already become 'classic' in my ears.


Not to offend you but Hammet pretty much sums up what i aspire NOT TO BE FOR ANY REASON, shitty tone shitty playing, ideolized for playing in a band which did not put out good music in years, and playing the same pulloff-phrase through a wahwah does not as creativity... inb4 hammet hate


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## Iheartmidgetbooty (Jun 12, 2011)

Lon said:


> just to add some rant: kids today consume music through atrocious sound reproducing systems, this is why you need a top notch production, you know how a brilliantly produced song sounds through a cellphone speaker... imagine how a badly produced song sounds...
> 
> Not to offend you but Hammet pretty much sums up what i aspire NOT TO BE FOR ANY REASON, shitty tone shitty playing, ideolized for playing in a band which did not put out good music in years, and playing the same pulloff-phrase through a wahwah does not as creativity... inb4 hammet hate



Maybe, but he inspired me to first try playing guitar. It's absurdly retarded playing and dirty tone... But that's back when I was growing up and had no technical sense of music. Shitty knowledge, shitty perspectives. I agree with you wholeheartedly about not wanting to 'aspire' to be like him. But I grew on the initial inspiration that I received by listening to him early on. 

Just clearing that up.


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## yidcorer (Jun 12, 2011)

Man, I hate it when people diss Hammett like that. Too bad the guy didn´t have a POD back in the day or an Axe fx ultra to plug into his mesa stiletto or whatever. Did Marty Friedman have a "nice" tone while playing for megadeth? Or the guys in Slayer? Or even Randy Rhoads? The solo to "Crazy train" is genius, but the sound of the guitar gives me a headache all the time. 

By the way, Hammett may have been repetitive at times ,but he crafted solos that 95% of guitarists worldwide have learned (or at least tried to). On the other hand, he also wrote solos that 90% of guitarists worldwide, which means ALL of us on this forum, couldn´t come up with because of their longevity and epicness.


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## Lon (Jun 12, 2011)

yidcorer said:


> Man, I hate it when people diss Hammett like that. Too bad the guy didn´t have a POD back in the day or an Axe fx ultra to plug into his mesa stiletto or whatever. Did Marty Friedman have a "nice" tone while playing for megadeth? Or the guys in Slayer? Or even Randy Rhoads? The solo to "Crazy train" is genius, but the sound of the guitar gives me a headache all the time.
> 
> By the way, Hammett may have been repetitive at times ,but he crafted solos that 95% of guitarists worldwide have learned (or at least tried to). On the other hand, he also wrote solos that 90% of guitarists worldwide, which means ALL of us on this forum, couldn´t come up with because of their longevity and epicness.


Yeah i have a pretty big hammet hate going on, but to give my statement some perspective... i do not get "Metallica" either or what is so great about them, i f i think epic solo i instantly want to be loomis, sucimez or waggoner, but i'd never think "oh my god wanna play pulled of minor arpeggios through a wahwah" and i really never wanted to play any hammet solo... i even think megadeth is pretty great but i just can't get into metallica whatsoever, its tolerable at most for me


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 12, 2011)

> but he crafted solos that 95% of guitarists worldwide have learned





Like metal guitarists would cover even 50% of worlds guitarists... 

And to get to your point, for example Petrucci did nail a handful of tones back in the 90's IMO. I still like the production on the early DT albums.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 12, 2011)

And now that I read the OP through with time, I do have something to argue about this post.

First of all, we're doing music for ourselves right? So wouldn't that mean you're cheating yourself if you didn't make it sound the way you want. In your philosophy, only a notesheet full of notes arranged in a form would be enough to get you goosebumps. Well, if that's the case - I say it's all fine.

Production is a part of your sound and IMO just "getting the idea of a song" is not enough. I couldn't jam to a guitar pro midi composition even though I hear the potential. Having good production (good production = the way you want it) is unleashing the potential of a composition.

The point is not to make music that good to the listener. It's not a coincidence though, that music really often has similarities, but that's due to preference of a composer - not the preference of a listener.

And it all comes down to that every time. If you like that people like your composition (and compose music that hits the radio channels), doesn't that mean it's a preference of yours in the end?

And the perfect mix does exist. It's the one you like the most. It's the one that holds the most intensity in the way you like it - or least intensity if that's the case.

Care about yourself. If you don't like polished mixes, or don't like to pay attention to it, so be it. I like and that's what I call following my dreams.


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## Iheartmidgetbooty (Jun 13, 2011)

yidcorer said:


> Man, I hate it when people diss Hammett like that. Too bad the guy didn´t have a POD back in the day or an Axe fx ultra to plug into his mesa stiletto or whatever. Did Marty Friedman have a "nice" tone while playing for megadeth? Or the guys in Slayer? Or even Randy Rhoads? The solo to "Crazy train" is genius, but the sound of the guitar gives me a headache all the time.
> 
> By the way, Hammett may have been repetitive at times ,but he crafted solos that 95% of guitarists worldwide have learned (or at least tried to). On the other hand, he also wrote solos that 90% of guitarists worldwide, which means ALL of us on this forum, couldn´t come up with because of their longevity and epicness.


 
Oh shit, using _statistics_ for the win.


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## Mattayus (Jun 13, 2011)

To the original question: 

I think only at amateur level. People too often will write music to facilitate mixing practice, or to hone in their home production skills. Home production has become a niche thing of late and people are becoming obsessed with it, thinking they can automatically release 'albums' if they get a few cracked programs.

The way it still is for most bands that "make it", however, is they will form a band, an actual band, that will write music at band practice, play a few shows, then go to a producer who will take care of that shit for them. So in the sense of the actual music scene? No, I don't think people care more about the production than the music. At internet forum level? Fuck yes. But only in some cases.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 13, 2011)

yidcorer said:


> By the way, Hammett may have been repetitive at times ,but he crafted solos that 95% of guitarists worldwide have learned (or at least tried to). On the other hand, he also wrote solos that 90% of guitarists worldwide, which means ALL of us on this forum, couldn´t come up with because of their longevity and epicness.



100% unequivocally false.


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 13, 2011)

Customisbetter said:


> I thought the AAL album sounded great. The only late album that disappointed me production-wise was Circa Survives latest effort which had noticable clipping a couple times. other than that mixes and overall tracks on htis forum alone sound miles better than that abomination that is Death Magnetic.



You have to be joking. I love both AAL and Circa Survive (even saw them together on that tour) but Circa's album sounds SO much better than the AAL album, it's ridiculous.


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 13, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> As an add to the above,
> 
> People that know how to write good music (in the sense of wether masses like it) know also how to produce it good. They have a vision of sound and way the music should sound.
> 
> ...



I don't really agree with this at all. There are many extremely talented guitarists/songwriters who don't have that great of an ear for mixing, getting a good guitar tone, getting good drum tones, etc... and there are many albums which feature incredible music that was recorded at home by 1 person, but sound mediocre due to the artist not being all that good at mixing. This is the reason producers, mixers, mastering engineers, etc. exist... 

The fact is it takes a lot of time, money, and dedication to master the craft of audio engineering... It also takes a lot of time, money, and dedication to master an instrument or the songwriting process... Most musicians are so focused on their music that they just don't have the knowledge, skills, gear, or most importantly, the experience, to produce/mix professional sounding albums.

Production is about best serving the music... putting the music out on a professional level... putting your heart and soul into the music AND the SOUND of the music. There are many albums I have which contain music I LOVE, but I can't help but thinking they would be so much better with better mixes. I also have some albums with rather simple music that doesn't draw me in all that much, while being produced very well... so I sometimes use these albums as mix references to help get closer to the sounds I want... BUT the absolute best albums are when the music and mixes each could stand on their own. Incredible music shines through bad sound quality, but it REALLY, TRULY shines when presented in the form of a well recorded, well mixed, and highly polished album.

Technology is getting better AND cheaper day by day. It's not impossible for a single guitarist to write, play on, record, mix, produce his own album at a professional level. It just takes a lot of time and dedication, like anything else worth doing. Many musicians don't have the time, dedication, or even the desire to master their instrument AND the entire music production process.... but it's doable. 

The Axe-FX is not the answer either. Most professional rock and metal albums are still being recorded by micing up cabs. The Axe-FX, although a very powerful processor, is a fad.... Impulse Response technology is still not where it needs to be to really capture the sound of a speaker cabinet. It's too static. People are buying them up because of the popularity, but when you really listen to the albums being recorded with them.... I'm sorry, but they aren't on the same level sonically as the best professional albums coming out. If you have the money to drop on an Axe-FX, you have the money to drop on a decent interface, mic preamp, an SM57, and a DI box... You could record DIs and send them off to be reamped by professionals, or even rent out a studio for a day and take your DIs there and reamp yourself. People are using PODs and the Axe-FX out of convenience. Let's face it, they are easier for the average musician to get a decent sound out of. It's easier to just plug it directly in to an interface and tweak some sounds, but it's not sonic perfection, and it's not impossible to get equal or even better results micing up cabs on your own with a little bit of knowledge and trial-and-error experience.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 13, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> I don't really agree with this at all. There are many extremely talented guitarists/songwriters who don't have that great of an ear for mixing, getting a good guitar tone, getting good drum tones, etc... and there are many albums which feature incredible music that was recorded at home by 1 person, but sound mediocre due to the artist not being all that good at mixing. This is the reason producers, mixers, mastering engineers, etc. exist...
> 
> The fact is it takes a lot of time, money, and dedication to master the craft of audio engineering... It also takes a lot of time, money, and dedication to master an instrument or the songwriting process... Most musicians are so focused on their music that they just don't have the knowledge, skills, gear, or most importantly, the experience, to produce/mix professional sounding albums.
> 
> ...



Oh the ignorance...

Ofcourse there are exceptions, but that was not my point. My point was to bring up the correlation between the ability of composing a 'good song' (make it appealing to masses) and knowing how to achieve a sonarry appealing tone. No one can deny that.

And about Axe-FX. Who are you to judge peoples taste on a sound? What if digital is getting us further than analogue ever could? What if I like the sound of Axe-FX more than a tube preamp and a million analogue stompboxes? What if I like the imperfection of an Impulse Response sample rate? 

You just can't state it like that as it all comes down to preference.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 13, 2011)

^ Word up... We have choices for a reason. 

Then again if we were all forced to use the same exact equipment I'm sure there'd still be reasons to bitch... 

And will ppl please quit talking about heart and fucking soul? It doesn't improve your argument.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 13, 2011)

Konfyouzd said:


> ^ Word up... We have choices for a reason.
> 
> Then again if we were all forced to use the same exact equipment I'm sure there'd still be reasons to bitch...
> 
> And will ppl please quit talking about heart and fucking soul? It doesn't improve your argument.



I like this guy alot...


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 13, 2011)

Bump for the love of arguing.


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## Antenna (Jun 13, 2011)

haha this threads just getting ridiculous now!  I'll put this in my Non-homophobic sounding opinion that hopefully many people can agreed with. Consider every aspect of production coloring in a painting. Then look at the notes, melodies, and techniques behind it as the brush strokes. What defines a painting is the way artist displays the finest of details with his brush but what gives that painting it's public appeal is the vivid and striking colors that capture everyone's attention in the first place.....

...of course some people are fans of black and white but meet me half way here!


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 13, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> Oh the ignorance...
> 
> Ofcourse there are exceptions, but that was not my point. My point was to bring up the correlation between the ability of composing a 'good song' (make it appealing to masses) and knowing how to achieve a sonarry appealing tone. No one can deny that.
> 
> ...



What if some kid likes his Crate combo amp more? What if somebody else prefers a metalzone? These are pointless questions. I could prefer the sound of micing up the strings of my guitar like someone normally would with an acoustic over using an amp or amp sim. It's all about preference after all, right? ...but that doesn't mean it's going to lead to a great sounding mix. 

As for your point, my point was that what you were saying is not really true at all. It's not about exceptions, it's about what's common. There are many great musicians who don't produce great sounding mixes. Audio engineering is separate from composing/playing. Just because you're good at one of them does not mean you're good at the other. Sure, there are people out there who can do it all, but they are few and far between.... I think the AAL album is a good example.... or many albums by Sumerian bands... Great music, but generally very mediocre sounding mixes... Good enough to get the ideas across? Sure. The best examples of how the songs could be? Definitely not...

That is exactly the reason why producers and mixers exist... to help musicians get their ideas recorded and refined, because many musicians either A. don't really know how they want each instrument (or the mix itself) to sound, or B. don't have the knowledge/skills/gear/experience to do what they want themselves.


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## Iheartmidgetbooty (Jun 13, 2011)

This thread is pretty much troll.

There are many mediums to this spectrum and it is apparent that getting your thought across on this aspect of music is somewhat opionative jargon to anyone else. Some are on the side of preference, while others are on the side of what sounds good to the whole audience....so on and so forth. 

Let's just establish that this is based on opinion and there is no one firm line but only a blur of many firm lines.

Sure, you, as a musician, want clarity out of a mix. This isn't the case for many others. Others might want to feel atmosphere, sluggishness, grunge, colors and even shit, in their mix of choice.

It all really comes down to what you want. It's all a glorious picture in the eyes of music and you can't deny a mix from being called 'music' in any sense, because it is, in fact, music. There is no withstanding opinion and many opinions will be slashed by other opinions because of who they are coming from. That's all it is really...



So, yeah, troll...


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## ThisWorldIsOurs (Jun 14, 2011)

I think that music comes first for sure. However, I feel that if the music is good the "polished production" can push it over the top. I think that with modern technology it is too easy to make things sound better than they should, but since it's possible, why not haha. I try to focus on both musicianship and production but I think that over processed recordings are here to stay in this day and age. If metallica way back when could add 5 bass drops and program drums to make them sound perfect I dont think that they would, but this generation would probably ( I would haha  ). 

This is such a good thread, I dont hate on anyones opinion at all, just putting in my 2 cents!


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 14, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> What if some kid likes his Crate combo amp more? What if somebody else prefers a metalzone? These are pointless questions. I could prefer the sound of micing up the strings of my guitar like someone normally would with an acoustic over using an amp or amp sim. It's all about preference after all, right? ...but that doesn't mean it's going to lead to a great sounding mix.
> 
> As for your point, my point was that what you were saying is not really true at all. It's not about exceptions, it's about what's common. There are many great musicians who don't produce great sounding mixes. Audio engineering is separate from composing/playing. Just because you're good at one of them does not mean you're good at the other. Sure, there are people out there who can do it all, but they are few and far between.... I think the AAL album is a good example.... or many albums by Sumerian bands... Great music, but generally very mediocre sounding mixes... Good enough to get the ideas across? Sure. The best examples of how the songs could be? Definitely not...
> 
> That is exactly the reason why producers and mixers exist... to help musicians get their ideas recorded and refined, because many musicians either A. don't really know how they want each instrument (or the mix itself) to sound, or B. don't have the knowledge/skills/gear/experience to do what they want themselves.



I don't know what do you mean by bad mixes when talking of AAL or "Other Sumerian bands". I can sure tell a good mix and even though AAL is not in the top of "good mixes" it sure is not on the bottom.

And other Sumerian bands? Periphery, in my opinion, stands in the VERY TOP of PERFECT mixes around. Made with Axe-FX. You are just too biased in thinking that your opinion stands better than mine even though there is no objectively perfect mix. Yes, there are mixes that most people like, but the opinion of the mass does not prove you right or wrong.


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 14, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> And other Sumerian bands? Periphery, in my opinion, stands in the VERY TOP of PERFECT mixes around. Made with Axe-FX.



I honestly feel bad for you if you really think that. The Periphery album is not great sounding by any means.... really muffled, digital guitar tone with that plasticy, static midrange of IRs that stands out from a mile away... fake superior drummer samples compressed to hell, the whole mix compressed to hell, the vocals sounding quite bad even though they were hyping them up by talking about how a very expensive mic was used (a cheap SM7b would have done way better in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing). 

Misha is extremely talented at writing music and creating intricate, interesting layers, but the axe-fx IRs + superior drummer formula is nowhere near perfection and the results are nowhere near the top of professional mixes. MANY people were disappointed with the way the album ended up sounding. Kids here worship those sounds, because 1. They love the music, and they can't seem to learn to separate the music from the mix objectively and 2. they can easily obtain cracked versions of superior drummer, cubase itself, and various plugins to try to learn something about mixing without really dedicating any money to it

I'm guessing you're not above the age of 19? and perhaps don't really know all that much about recording/mixing/mastering? and I'm not really sure where you guys are going with the "It's all subjective" comment...... Of course, it's subjective, but if that's the final point, then why was this thread even made? People might not agree with you about what "overproduction" actually consists of... It's subjective after all...

The bottom line is great mixes give your band a more professional appearance. Nobody wants to hear poor recordings and poor mixes. The technology we have today is too good to accept that. Musicians should strive to put their music out on a professional level if they really care about their art and/or want people to take them seriously... That is my subjective opinion.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 15, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> I honestly feel bad for you if you really think that. The Periphery album is not great sounding by any means.... really muffled, digital guitar tone with that plasticy, static midrange of IRs that stands out from a mile away... fake superior drummer samples compressed to hell, the whole mix compressed to hell, the vocals sounding quite bad even though they were hyping them up by talking about how a very expensive mic was used (a cheap SM7b would have done way better in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing).
> 
> Misha is extremely talented at writing music and creating intricate, interesting layers, but the axe-fx IRs + superior drummer formula is nowhere near perfection and the results are nowhere near the top of professional mixes. MANY people were disappointed with the way the album ended up sounding. Kids here worship those sounds, because 1. They love the music, and they can't seem to learn to separate the music from the mix objectively and 2. they can easily obtain cracked versions of superior drummer, cubase itself, and various plugins to try to learn something about mixing without really dedicating any money to it
> 
> ...



I sure know Mishas production does not meet the standards of this days metal production, but it sure upholds his compositions and that's the only absolute value I know about music production. What makes digital worse than analogue? What if digital is the thing that for example Misha wanted to achieve when getting a static sound. Gosh Meshuggah has used a fuckloads of digital amp modelling in their albums. And Steven Wilson used POD to create In Absentia.

Periphery album is not by any means muffed in my opinion (listening through ADAM A5 monitors BTW - and have listened with many other high end monitors just that you won't think I'm basing my arguments to sennheiser earplugs)



> then why was this thread even made?



Exactly. That's my point, there's no point in this thread as music production is all subjective. Oh, and I'm 18, but as a mature person you must realize that doesn't improve your argument.

And what do I know about mixing or mastering or recording? Not that much, but a lot more than a casual SS.org homerecorder (no disrespect). I have taken lessons to improve my knowledge about DAW, synthesis, recording (with actual mics, yes), editing. Nothing really detailed, but lets say I have a really good overview on the subject. And I still think Periphery self titled had a great production. Especially when it comes to budget, still not despice the final product.

And about professional appearance. How did Misha manage to get signed @ Roadrunner Records? How the hell is he touring in Europe? Professional enough? If that is your opinion, Misha sure meets your standards (I'm sorry if I'm speaking my mouth off, I believe he said that he's kinda positive with his outcome). He did make music for the love of music in the maximum bidget he had. He had the power to make music that does not fully meet the standards of todays modern metal, but what he did, is he took a step forward. What if in 10 years every metal producer is producing music Periphery did 10 years ago? And don't say that's impossible - it's what happened with Catch 33. Meshuggah had a weird modern sound that I don't believe many approved, but where are we now? Everybody - 10 years later - are trying to copy the sound of theirs.

It's not that we're in a dead end with our standards. People like Misha and Fredrick are pushing our standards, be it a oversaturated djent sound or overcompressed drumsamples.

Let me guess now. You're an engineer (recording, mixing, mastering) that's fucking pissed about people liking Mishas production. You try to reason to yourself that your education was not all for nothing. You hate digital because of the fact that.... that... well... digital?

Deal with it. You can't force standards to stay the way you are taught. Genres are getting more and more influenced by other genres, which is pushing the production off from the 2010 modern metal standard (excuse me for overusing this word). Many people like it whether you did or not.


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## Antenna (Jun 15, 2011)

All of this seems like its just which side of the semantical line you want to stand on. 

I kind of believe that Pineal Gland (no offense by the way) is kind of comparing a Bow and Arrow to a Rifle... they both shoot projectiles, but in different ways and just because you seem to be an old dog doesn't mean new tricks aren't where things are heading. Traditional production may be the standard as it was, but that doesn't mean the no no's you learned before haven't become popular now. THERE IS NO MUSICAL DOCTRINE, thats like trying to tell someone they are wrong about writing because it's not based on Music Theory.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 15, 2011)

Antenna said:


> All of this seems like its just which side of the semantical line you want to stand on.
> 
> I kind of believe that Pineal Gland (no offense by the way) is kind of comparing a Bow and Arrow to a Rifle... they both shoot projectiles, but in different ways and just because you seem to be an old dog doesn't mean new tricks aren't where things are heading. Traditional production may be the standard as it was, but that doesn't mean the no no's you learned before haven't become popular now. THERE IS NO MUSICAL DOCTRINE, thats like trying to tell someone they are wrong about writing because it's not based on Music Theory.



Yea in a nutshell.

Haters gonna hate. Just that you have an educated opinion on the subject doesn't mean you're right as the mass begs to differ with you. (And it does, really) Step out of conservative values as start to produce like an artist - not blindly following the old mans orders. I know it's good to know the rules in order to brake them, but that's not a must.


E: And just to add. Even most of the professionals can't say which is a real amp and which is Axe-FX when doing blind tests (In a mix), so your "static midrange of IRs" (which does not exist. You can say that if know the method any further... and please don't bring the "it just IS there"-argument) argument is invalid. I don't say that Axe-FX offers the best result, but it sure will give you a lot more choises, time and more bang for the buck than a high end studio would ever offer. And every metal producer nowadays uses sample replacement so your Superior Drummer argument doesn't stand.


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## windu (Jun 15, 2011)

dont really have much to say in any kidna argument, just thought id put my 2 cents in lol

when i was really young and starting out playing guitar (7th grade?) i worshiped metallica and system of a down. (tho always grewup listening to metallica, thanks pops!) well i remember in middle school everyone talking bout pantera, and my uncle had a few cd's (if i remember it was far beyond driven and reinventing steel) and i didnt even give it a full listen because i didnt like the production of the damn cd's! i remember it sounding like old cock rock or something! didnt give it another listen for a while, (think i poped in southern trend kill , and gave it a hardcore listen and fell inlove) thats when i started to listen to the other albums, and thats when i REALLY started to appriciate pantera. sometimes some production just doesnt fancy a persons ears, first thing a persons hears when they listen to a song, is gonna be the riff or vocal patterns or whatever instrument they find themselves attuned too, but they are also gonna respond to how it reactes to their ears, if its harsh they may not wanna listen to the rest of the song or album.

and when it comes to digital sound. i have a buddy friend that HATE electronic drums and fake samples. but when periphery came out with their self titled, i showed it to him and he commented on how the drums sounded sick! i told him right after they were digital drums, and he fliped! opened his mind a little bit. and the whole ax fx thing? i think its a godsend! i think the new born of osiris album guitar tones sound just straight sick! makes me wonder if they could really get that sound outa tube amps? so clear and punchy without sacraficing anything harsh! but im just a novice when it comes to things like that lol.

just my input =)


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 15, 2011)

windu said:


> dont really have much to say in any kidna argument, just thought id put my 2 cents in lol
> 
> when i was really young and starting out playing guitar (7th grade?) i worshiped metallica and system of a down. (tho always grewup listening to metallica, thanks pops!) well i remember in middle school everyone talking bout pantera, and my uncle had a few cd's (if i remember it was far beyond driven and reinventing steel) and i didnt even give it a full listen because i didnt like the production of the damn cd's! i remember it sounding like old cock rock or something! didnt give it another listen for a while, (think i poped in southern trend kill , and gave it a hardcore listen and fell inlove) thats when i started to listen to the other albums, and thats when i REALLY started to appriciate pantera. sometimes some production just doesnt fancy a persons ears, first thing a persons hears when they listen to a song, is gonna be the riff or vocal patterns or whatever instrument they find themselves attuned too, but they are also gonna respond to how it reactes to their ears, if its harsh they may not wanna listen to the rest of the song or album.
> 
> ...





And according to some videos John Petrucci had his own "Fractal" channel on the mixer of the studio they're recording their new album. Proves something IMO.


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 16, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> Yea in a nutshell.
> 
> Haters gonna hate. Just that you have an educated opinion on the subject doesn't mean you're right as the mass begs to differ with you. (And it does, really) Step out of conservative values as start to produce like an artist - not blindly following the old mans orders. I know it's good to know the rules in order to brake them, but that's not a must.
> 
> ...



lol what professionals? Sure as hell NOT the most popular modern metal producers like Andy Sneap, Colin Richardson, Jason Suecof, Adam D, James Murphy, etc... Even Joey Sturgis uses a POD (not impulse responses). I owned an Axe-FX for 2 years. I know what it is capable of and I know what it is about it I didn't like. 

And, yes, IRs are a static capture of the speaker at one particular instance in time. Speakers in real life are linear. The sound varies depending on the notes played and how hard those notes are hit.

Sample replacement/augmentation is not the same as programming drums.... let alone programming drums with the stale, horribly overused, not all that great sounding superior drummer samples. Do you know how many other samples are out there? Even if you wanted to program everything, you could come up with unique drum samples and more realistic, more pleasing sounding cymbals... or you could make your own samples of your drummer's kit and process them.

By the way, all of the "old dog" stuff is funny. Dude, I'm only 23. I just have taste. You don't have to be old to not think the Axe-FX is the best thing ever, and you don't have to use an Axe-FX or a POD to play rhythmic, groove metal with staccato riffs. The latest After The Burial is a mic'd up cab. Fredrik Thordendal has a new signature DAR amp, and Meshuggah have used real amps and cabs in the past, and many people argue these were their best guitar tones. A tubescreamer + a 5150 or 5150 III + Mesa cab + sm57 could work so well for bands like Veil of Maya, Born of Osiris, etc.... but you don't see that because of cliques and fads. Bands copy each other. The Axe-FX became really popular. It's a status symbol. Guitarists want to be taken seriously. They want to use the same thing their favorite guitarists use (even if it isn't actually used on any albums).

I'm not against digital tones at all. I have digital Eventide effects stomp boxes. I think what Joey Sturgis does with the POD is miles better than any distorted guitar tones I've heard from the Axe-FX... (but still a little flat, IMO. He just knows how to EQ very well). Both the Axe-FX and POD do cleans well. I just prefer the aggressive, grindy, yet polished guitar tones (and mixes) you hear in modern metal put out by the producers I mentioned at the top of this post.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 16, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> lol what professionals? Sure as hell NOT the most popular modern metal producers like Andy Sneap, Colin Richardson, Jason Suecof, Adam D, James Murphy, etc... Even Joey Sturgis uses a POD (not impulse responses). I owned an Axe-FX for 2 years. I know what it is capable of and I know what it is about it I didn't like.
> 
> And, yes, IRs are a static capture of the speaker at one particular instance in time. Speakers in real life are linear. The sound varies depending on the notes played and how hard those notes are hit.
> 
> ...



I was talking about people that at least claim (in sigs and such) to run some kind of a studio @ forums... Provocational post is provocational. However, I have read multiple threads about this subject and the discrete is almost 50%/50%. Most of the time I prefer the Axe-FX one, though that's most probably not correlating.

Umm, if speakers are (as you said it) linear... doesn't that mean they act as presumed? (The hypothesis is taken from the IR, which is kind of a derivate of the speaker function) 
I always thought speakers don't act linear (in the tone-volume function-> more volume-> different tone)
That plus IR is taken in the function of time, not @ one instance of it - so I don't know if I, or you are misinformed.

And you yourself called people @ SSO "kids" (when you were talking about Axe-FX, which BTW is freaking immature and annoying) so I guess the old dog came from that.

And a simple combo like 5150 + tubescreamer sure would work for VoM and AtB, but hell that would take away SO much freedom. I'm pretty sure the guys at Periphery don't have that much money to buy 75 amps. Axe-FX gives them freedom of choise. Maybe they'll use real amps later in their productions (as Nolly did, which is pretty cool BTW). But maybe they'll like the way Axe-FX sounds. Maybe someone wants to use a less real amp.

If you think Joey Sturgis has better sounds than Periphery, I really think we do have different tastes in the subject. And don't get me wrong, I think Joey does have really cool sounds, but as they could ever beat Periphery? Hell no.

And you're right in the fact that it's not what you've got, but how you use it. I have seen millions and millions of desperate high-gain sounds from Axe-FX. It doesn't do the magic in itself. And sure it's not the perfect simulation of the real things, but maybe it offers something better for someone.

And yea, as Cliff has mentioned (IIRC) - he has a better cabinet simulation technology in pocket, but the hardware just isn't there yet. So maybe someday you'll be satisfied with digital cabinet simulations. Maybe. What we have here is perfectly enough, if not better, for what I need to compose and make music the way I want it to sound.


E: And as for samples, I do know the possibilies in drum processing. Hell I play drums and I'm about to buy a full set of mics just to mic up my 7-piece maple kit. It's gonna cost a lot, but it's worth it. I'm gonna sweep over the range of samples to find the best (which again, I have found SD2.0 samples to be in the top of the market. for now atleast)


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 16, 2011)

Antenna said:


> All of this seems like its just which side of the semantical line you want to stand on.


 
With all due respect... Welcome to internet forums.


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## Fiction (Jun 16, 2011)

This argument is quite something, but, nothing a match of fisticuffs can not fix.

I'd just like to bring something else to the table, how many people listening to an album are going to sit there, straining trying to take in from the mix whether they used a cab or an axe-fx.I doubt 90% of the listeners could tell the difference, and if they did find out by reading it somewhere, I doubt there response would be "Oh No! They didn't use a Head+Cab Config!". 

Anyways this is now just an argument between someone who enjoys mic'ing up there cab as opposed to someone who prefers DI. 

Carry On.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 16, 2011)

Fiction said:


> This argument is quite something, but, nothing a match of fisticuffs can not fix.
> 
> I'd just like to bring something else to the table, how many people listening to an album are going to sit there, straining trying to take in from the mix whether they used a cab or an axe-fx.I doubt 90% of the listeners could tell the difference, and if they did find out by reading it somewhere, I doubt there response would be "Oh No! They didn't use a Head+Cab Config!".
> 
> ...





This too, although when producing music, I don't think it's the mass that makes us do the moves we do, but our own personal opinions.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 16, 2011)

^ At least that's how it *should* be...


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## Taylor2 (Jun 16, 2011)

We just r-guing semantics now?


Production is subjective.
Production is used to take a great product over the top.
There are also bands that have way too much going on.
There are bands that try to use production to make bad music acceptable.
But then there are bands that have a great product and use production to complete it.

Just like everything else in life, use it sparingly.


Is there really any other point to be made?


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## Speculum Speculorum (Jun 16, 2011)

There's a lot of elitist crap being exchanged here. The arguing is getting all kinds of ridiculous. If I may bring some logic back into the petty crap.

If money were not an issue, I would build an underground area the size of a house to compartmentalize it into top-of-the-line live, mixing, mastering, and let's-all-get-wated-and-party rooms. I would hire audio engineers to come in and isolate/treat it with the best available resources. I'd have custom drums made for me by Allegra and cymbals from some dude that lives on the top of a mountain who hits metal all day. I'd buy shit tons of specialty and vintage amps and have them modified by the best names in the business. Don't forget about boutique stomp boxes with the best pedal switching systems on the market. 

I'd buy pro tools 9 HD but would record reel-to-reel and transfer to digital only to preserve the sound. I would mix on a set of monitors that I had to sell other people's body parts to afford. I would have custom guitars and basses made for me while the hottest, most naked, Swedish strippers danced around my luthiers to satisfy their every emotional need. And then I'd have vintage red wines and champagnes on stock for my "creative times".

It's not that I don't want to have all of these wonderful things. It's that at this point in my life, there is no way I can do it. I have limited funds. I work a full-time job that will require me to make recording happen at very strange parts of the night. I can't just throw down cash to go to one of the 2-3 studios in my area that don't produce great sound. I can't blast the 6505+ at recording volumes in the middle of the night in the bonus room above my garage (God-willing I get the house). There are no drummers worth even trying to buy up in Boise, God-damned, Idaho for writing modern art music influenced heavy rock, and for the aforementioned issue, LOUD! 

Above all, I don't have time as an artist to teach every single musician in the band how to read complex rhythms and modern counterpoint so we can even play through Section A of the mother fucking piece after they rehearse it for 2 weeks.

Modern digital emulators and sampled percussion, along with synthesizer software, will give me the ability to record at unheard of quality in the comfort of my home without having to spend tens of thousands of dollars. From there, after about a year of beard-inducing music writing, I can send it off to a mastering studio for finishing. I will start looking for fan base. Then, endorsement. And then, investors. Then, maybe I can start thinking about all that great studio planning with tube recording and live drums and gold-framed paintings of me riding a white horse into battle against German tanks. Until then, I'm really, really glad that there are modes of operation for a guy in my shoes.


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## C2Aye (Jun 16, 2011)

I just like my recordings to sound nice.

If the means are available to me, then why not use them?


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## Iheartmidgetbooty (Jun 16, 2011)

I like turtles.


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## Konfyouzd (Jun 16, 2011)

Iheartmidgetbooty said:


> I like turtles.


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 16, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> Umm, if speakers are (as you said it) linear... doesn't that mean they act as presumed? (The hypothesis is taken from the IR, which is kind of a derivate of the speaker function)
> I always thought speakers don't act linear (in the tone-volume function-> more volume-> different tone)
> That plus IR is taken in the function of time, not @ one instance of it - so I don't know if I, or you are misinformed.



I meant that speakers AREN'T linear. sorry.



Kurkkuviipale said:


> If you think Joey Sturgis has better sounds than Periphery, I really think we do have different tastes in the subject. And don't get me wrong, I think Joey does have really cool sounds, but as they could ever beat Periphery? Hell no.



Honestly, I don't think Periphery's mixes are even close to the level of quality Joey puts out. I don't care about most of the bands he works with, but he is a very talented producer/mixer. Extremely clear mixes, really aggressive and over the top, tons of little ear candy effects all over the place, really well balanced mixes... I prefer mic'd tones a la Sneap/Suecof/etc., but Joey is really good at EQing the POD to make it sound its absolute best. He knows how to keep everything really crisp and controlled and knows exactly where to emphasize the treble/presence in each instrument. His cymbal samples are extremely detailed and sound great... probably the best cymbal samples for programming drums available at the moment.

I like a lot of Periphery's music, but I don't like the vocal production, the superior drum tones, or the distorted guitar tones. I actually think some of Misha's really old POD stuff sounds better than the recent full length & EP. At least then the tone had some aggression and bite to it. The guitar tone on the full length is rather dull and muffled sounding. I get that they want to have a bit of that jazz fusion kind of vibe to it, but it just cuts all the balls out of it for a metal guitar tone. I find it really ironic that that whole crowd chooses to use digital amp sims and impulse responses, but rave about how natural and organic their passive pickups are at the same time. The Sneap approach is just the opposite... super crisp, clear, processed sounding active pickups into real amps and cabs.... 




Kurkkuviipale said:


> And yea, as Cliff has mentioned (IIRC) - he has a better cabinet simulation technology in pocket, but the hardware just isn't there yet. So maybe someday you'll be satisfied with digital cabinet simulations.



That's interesting. Have a link to where he said that? I quit paying attention to the fractal forums when I sold the Axe-FX. I'm curious about the new signature Thordendal products by DAR coming out... supposedly they tried to address the "static" issue of IRs somehow... not sure if it will make much of a difference, but I do like what I've heard of the amp (just saw a video of Ola from Feared playing it this morning)


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## Sepultorture (Jun 16, 2011)

Good writing, tight playing, efficient tracking and a good mix

That is what I in the least look for in music

But I have definitely seen a lot of nit pickiness in how those go about their mixes. It confounds the shit out of me that someone can like the music but not quite like the production, and this is how they would have done it differently. I like different bands and their different albums all for different reasons, but I have never nit picked their production.

An example of some of that pickiness goes down a lot at the Andy Sneap Forum. I like that forum, its 
quite informative. But that production over analyzing of mixes happens a lot there.

For example, we were arguing, because it definitely wasnt a discussion, that Cabinet Impulses were good sounding and worked on their own in a mix, others argued that Impulses were inferior, not the real thing, didnt breath enough. Ok so its not a real speaker, doesnt have that sense of moving air, but in the mix of a song, does it sound good. Ive heard many songs where its all amp sims, cab impulses, superior drummer and DI-ed or bass simmed. You can over analyze it to death about it not being REAL, but yuh know what, DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD is what matters to me.

Ola has done stuff that was all sims, and processed though it may be, in the end it sounds good to me, nice a heavy and tight and thats all I care about. Complaining about what you think about the highs, the lows, what mid range the dominant freqs sit in, seriously now, do we need to argue that to death. Of course you can make a shit mix, you can definitely take something and make it sound shitty, to thin, too boomy, muddy and so on. But to nit pick shit like cab impulses not being real enough, not dynamic enough is just plain silly.

I dont like EMG pickups, they sound too compressed to me, but I have heard countless bands that play EMG and they sound fucking sick. In the end to em ask yourself once simple question

DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD

/thread


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 16, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> I meant that speakers AREN'T linear. sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well that basically proves my point. It's subjective even if mass approves it.

Joeys mixes are really nice (even though the drum programming/sample replacing in the mixes is really dynamicless and machinelike) I just don't like the sound of his. Also, I'm not an expert on his mixes (have heard like, four or five of the pretty recent ones) so I might think othervice also.

And just to not make you thing I'm a digital fanboy, my favourite mixes come from the real things. Protest The Hero's latest album Scurrilous is ridiculously good not to mention Karnivool, Tool and Porcupine Tree (and DT's latest, but that's kinda old meat).

And I don't think majority of people agrees you with the Pod vs. FX thing. Again, Misha is himself a lot happier with his Axe-FX mixes (according to the fact that he said Axe-FX is the best addition to his recording gear ever) than the POD mixes. As said, you can't argue wiht opinions.

As for the Cliffs quote, I unfortunately don't find it just now. It also might have been second hand info, and this would be third hand information so don't take it 100% seriously. I'm still pretty confident about the fact that he said it, and the point in taking it up was the fact that digital is day by day getting closer and closer to the real thing. It's already pretty damn close, and if you pressume Moore's law to hold true I bet the line of human ear sensing a difference between analogue and digital is not far anymore. But hey, there's always the "real tube amps have *THAT* magic" -argument.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 16, 2011)

Taylor said:


> We just r-guing semantics now?
> 
> 
> Production is subjective.
> ...



We're actually arguing whether the subject is objective or subjective...


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## yidcorer (Jun 16, 2011)

Iheartmidgetbooty said:


> So, yeah, troll...



Do you always place the "trolling" label on stuff you aren´t able to comprehend?



Iheartmidgetbooty said:


> I like turtles.



Talk about failing at trolling


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## Taylor2 (Jun 16, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> We're actually arguing whether the subject is objective or subjective...




Does it sound good? Subjective.

Production value/a producer is designed to take the sound and make it as professional as possible. Which is subjective as it varies from person to person.
Hence why some people prefer the raw, un-polished sound with little production value, and others the modern, super-polished sound with lots of production value.


Is there really anything else to the subject?


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 16, 2011)

Taylor said:


> Does it matter?
> 
> Does it sound good? Yes or no?
> 
> ...



That's what I'm saying... People are thinking these things can be sorted by rules or such and I'm saying they cannot. What did I do wrong?


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## Taylor2 (Jun 16, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> That's what I'm saying... People are thinking these things can be sorted by rules or such and I'm saying they cannot. What did I do wrong?



I edited it at least a half a dozen times to get the point across.


The problem is that 3/6 pages are you and that other member arguing over irrelevant topics.

I AGREE with you, but seriously.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 16, 2011)

Taylor said:


> I edited it at least a half a dozen times to get the point across.
> 
> 
> The problem is that 3/6 pages are you and that other member arguing over irrelevant topics.
> ...



Oh I think we were all the time on the topic.

That, and

Do you find arguing about this subject nice? Yes or no?

That's all that matters.

I don't even know why are you taking part in this argumentation if you think it's all for nothing. If we don't, does it really bother you? I've learned a bunch from this thread and I've had a good conversation with a guy that FOR ONCE doesn't flood the thread with immature arguments. That's rare when arguin in internet.


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## the unbearable (Jun 16, 2011)

Iheartmidgetbooty said:


> I like turtles.



Real or simulated?


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 17, 2011)

Sepultorture said:


> But I have definitely seen a lot of nit pickiness in how those go about their mixes. It confounds the shit out of me that someone can like the music but not quite like the production, and this is how they would have done it differently. I like different bands and their different albums all for different reasons, but I have never nit picked their production.
> 
> An example of some of that pickiness goes down a lot at the Andy Sneap Forum. I like that forum, it&#8217;s
> quite informative. But that production over analyzing of mixes happens a lot there.



It's not nitpicking. It's all about quality. There are many extremely good mixers on the Sneap forum... these guys are professionals and very good at what they do. In general, people there are a little older and more interested in audio engineering/producing/mixing/mastering/tracking/etc. than your average music fan, or even die-hard prog metal fan (people on this forum). I never said I couldn't appreciate good music without a perfect mix, but good production really helps. When I hear really bad mixes, I just think the project was rushed/not given enough budget/not given enough attention/not worked on by skilled enough people... overall just more amateur sounding. I don't like to hear great bands make mediocre sounding albums, because it's hurting them... It makes them sound less professional, less polished.... Production is important. Many labels care about it a LOT. Why do you think all of this generic crabcore stuff, mainstream club rap, radio rock, is so popular? It's produced well and highly polished. Without highly polished, produced mixes, people wouldn't pay so much attention to those songs... Like it or not, most of the people on the Sneap forum have a higher level of understanding about recording and mixing and are putting out higher quality recordings than other places such as here.

I think a lot of people here have such an anti-mainstream attitude about their taste in music that they just don't care about production quality at all, and if they like the music, they just automatically also like the production. I think that's juvenile... I have no problem separating production/mix quality from music quality. Some of my favorite bands have horrible sounding albums, and some bands I can't stand have great sounding albums, and I have no problem admitting to that...

It kinda sucks for me as I'm sort of stuck in between, as I generally like a lot of the same music as most of this forum. I love prog metal... but I also love audio engineering and awesome productions. I just wish my favorite bands would step it up a little and put out albums that sound as good as the stuff by the bigger metalcore and death metal bands.

It really doesn't help when kids are listening to shitty 128kbps mp3s on laptop speakers, tiny cell phone speakers, ipod ear buds, etc. though...



Sepultorture said:


> For example, we we&#8217;re arguing, because it definitely wasn&#8217;t a discussion, that Cabinet Impulses were good sounding and worked on their own in a mix, others argued that Impulses were inferior, not the real thing, didn&#8217;t breath enough. Ok so it&#8217;s not a real speaker, doesn&#8217;t have that sense of moving air, but in the mix of a song, does it sound good. I&#8217;ve heard many songs where it&#8217;s all amp sims, cab impulses, superior drummer and DI-ed or bass simmed. You can over analyze it to death about it not being REAL, but yuh know what, DOES IT FUCKING SOUND GOOD is what matters to me.
> 
> 
> Ola has done stuff that was all sims, and processed though it may be, in the end it sounds good to me, nice a heavy and tight and that&#8217;s all I care about. Complaining about what you think about the highs, the lows, what mid range the dominant freqs sit in, seriously now, do we need to argue that to death. Of course you can make a shit mix, you can definitely take something and make it sound shitty, to thin, too boomy, muddy and so on. But to nit pick shit like cab impulses not being real enough, not dynamic enough is just plain silly.
> ...



Again, I don't think it's nitpicking. Whether or not it sounds good is debatable... and just how good is good enough is different from person to person, I guess... but ti's not about the principal of IRs being real versus fake. It's about the differences in sound between real and fake and the reason why we prefer mic'd up cabs. Ola is a great player no matter what he plays through, but I definitely think his best tones have come from mic'd up amps and cabs


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 17, 2011)

Kurkkuviipale said:


> Well that basically proves my point. It's subjective even if mass approves it.
> 
> Joeys mixes are really nice (even though the drum programming/sample replacing in the mixes is really dynamicless and machinelike) I just don't like the sound of his. Also, I'm not an expert on his mixes (have heard like, four or five of the pretty recent ones) so I might think othervice also.



I don't like either band, but his mixes for Oceano and Emmure are ridiculous. So heavy, so clear, great atmosphere and super polished. His drums are definitely more on the robotic modern metal side, but I don't think that's a bad thing. Really, Periphery and all of the other djenty bands have pretty damn compressed and robotic drums too... they all just use those tiny jazz snares to try to show dynamics with all of the ghost notes and snare rolls. I do think superior shows a good level of dynamics in the snare samples... I just don't like the sound of the samples themselves.

Also, listen to the I Am Abomination album to see an example of what Joey can do with a mainstream release featuring entirely programmed drums AND entirely programmed bass (trillian). That level of quality is well above the typical programmed superior + POD/Axe-FX demos you hear around here. I know people were excited about Bulb's stuff because they started realizing just how much could be done at a home studio........ but what they don't realize is you can do even better than that in a humble home studio with the right knowledge/skills/gear...




Kurkkuviipale said:


> And I don't think majority of people agrees you with the Pod vs. FX thing. Again, Misha is himself a lot happier with his Axe-FX mixes (according to the fact that he said Axe-FX is the best addition to his recording gear ever) than the POD mixes. As said, you can't argue wiht opinions.



Just because he likes it more doesn't mean it's better or that professional mixers would agree that his axe-fx mixes are better. I don't mean to single out Periphery at all, by the way. Let's be realistic here, Misha got the Axe-FX because Meshuggah was using it at the time and there was hype I believe from Cynic and also Devin Townsend starting to use them around the same time. Tosin from AAL and bands like After The Burial, Born of Osiris, etc. started using them after that because Misha was using them (and of course Meshuggah). It's people copying each other, and it's definitely a fad of some sorts. A lot of these guys don't know all that much about recording or mixing. They just want to own the cool new toy that their favorite guitarists are using. Even though I think Tesseract's album doesn't sound that great either, I was happy to see Acle be more open and honest about what he thought of the Axe-FX instead of just hopping on the bandwagon and proclaiming it the best thing ever.


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## sevenstringj (Jun 17, 2011)

I actually LOVE the production on ...And Justice for All! 

And BTW, it wasn't just the production that was less than pristine back in the day. The playing wasn't pristine either. Take Led Zeppelin for example. You'd have to quantize the shit out of their music for it to sell today.

But with digital came the ability to do endless takes and quantize, and eventually autotune. So people have come to expect perfection. And of course louder = moar better.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 17, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> Just because he likes it more doesn't mean it's better or that professional mixers would agree that his axe-fx mixes are better. I don't mean to single out Periphery at all, by the way. Let's be realistic here, Misha got the Axe-FX because Meshuggah was using it at the time and there was hype I believe from Cynic and also Devin Townsend starting to use them around the same time. Tosin from AAL and bands like After The Burial, Born of Osiris, etc. started using them after that because Misha was using them (and of course Meshuggah). It's people copying each other, and it's definitely a fad of some sorts. A lot of these guys don't know all that much about recording or mixing. They just want to own the cool new toy that their favorite guitarists are using. Even though I think Tesseract's album doesn't sound that great either, I was happy to see Acle be more open and honest about what he thought of the Axe-FX instead of just hopping on the bandwagon and proclaiming it the best thing ever.


 
That just hit something there. 

It turns out that because of all of the Axe Fx users, it's set a standard in terms of musical production. All the afformentioned bands have come to great success in creating great produced music. I'm not gonna get into the whole "AxeFx is awesome/sterile" or "subjective" arguments as I've already stated my opinion on my first posts. I will say that the Axe Fx is really good, and has become successful in leading the way to the future of music and music production. 

Which leads me to this: All of the bands mentioned have not only had great success, but have inspired a whole legion of players following suit. Just look at the majority of djent/AxeFx based recordings in this very forum. That's all well and good. However, a lot of time and money invested in state of the art gear, a majority of these players (generally speaking, I'm not gonna point the finger), have forgotten an important factor. And it's the very important factor that has made Periphery and the mentioned successful bands being separated above from the legion of masses = SONGS. 

Songwriting and craftsmanship is what made these bands what they are. Their production magnifies it. All of those who have focused the acquisiton of gear before writing songs have either decided to only be a bedroom guitarist doing covers, or have completely missed the point. Just reading the OP again and it looks like his statements were giving a hidden jab at all the aspiring guitarists following bulb's footsteps (whether it was intentional or not, I don't know). There's too much focus on getting a fantastic guitar sound with your exensive gear, to only play a bunch of riffs that's thrown together for the sake of it? A lot of the showcased songs literally only follow their heroes and lack their own identity. At least it well produced and polished so even if the song is terrible, it sounds great through the speakers.  To these guys, production has become far more important than the music. 

Looks like this thread's going full circle.


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## yidcorer (Jun 17, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Just reading the OP again and it looks like his statements were giving a hidden jab at all the aspiring guitarists following bulb's footsteps (whether it was intentional or not, I don't know). There's too much focus on getting a fantastic guitar sound with your exensive gear, to only play a bunch of riffs that's thrown together for the sake of it? A lot of the showcased songs literally only follow their heroes and lack their own identity. At least it well produced and polished so even if the song is terrible, it sounds great through the speakers.  *To these guys, production has become far more important than the music. *



Yes, that´s what I meant and yes, it was pretty much a hidden jab (not anymore)


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 17, 2011)

Well if that's the case with people @ SSO, I don't know what to say. I'm still doing music for the love of it, believe me or not. I just still do think production is a way for people to communicate a little more with music, in a way you never had before.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 17, 2011)




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## iceythe (Jun 17, 2011)

I love good mixes. I love good songs with mediocre production, too.

I love spending time to get that perfect mix cause I love tweaking and perceive it as an art. I'm a tweaker. I wont settle for less when I know I can do better. I don't have expensive equipment, which in turn fuels my desire to push it as far as I can. Attention to detail and striving for improvement is why I dabble in recording, and ultimately why I pick up the guitar the end of the day. Knowing I have a relatively decent mix to back up my writing expands my creativity exponentially. If it doesn't for some, that's too bad. This proves just one thing, no one are the same. And thank god for that.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 17, 2011)

iceythe said:


> I love good mixes. I love good songs with mediocre production, too.
> 
> I love spending time to get that perfect mix cause I love tweaking and perceive it as an art. I'm a tweaker. I wont settle for less when I know I can do better. I don't have expensive equipment, which in turn fuels my desire to push it as far as I can. Attention to detail and striving for improvement is why I dabble in recording, and ultimately why I pick up the guitar the end of the day. Knowing I have a relatively decent mix to back up my writing expands my creativity exponentially. If it doesn't for some, that's too bad. This proves just one thing, no one are the same. And thank god for that.



I like the fact that this guy can actually stand behind his words. Keep up the awesome mixes dude!


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## itscurbe (Jun 17, 2011)

Yep.


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## Ryan-ZenGtr- (Jun 17, 2011)

So what did we learn?



Several members are obsessed with axe fx's and djent records, both positive and negative.... 

/jk

I always demo my original tunes, work on them and rerecord for the final mix, as it should be. So production is the final stage in the development of my material and is not a consideration until the song is demo'd.

Enough about me. What is the general opinion on Genre Production Techniques?

Clearly Metal as a genre holds many guidelines for production. Depending on the material an era during which it would have been popular can be conjured up in mixing. An obvious example would be Death Metal; make it sound vintage or it's not Death. To me a Death mix is quite a specific thing, I don't mean to step on toes here. Personally, I prefer Death without a Death mix (old skool lo fi mix).

So here is my question; If a production is true to the genre trends of an artist's influences but fails to capture the attention of modern audiences, is this artist making production choices at the expense of the music?

Identity Vs. popular mixes / Risk Vs. Reward / Integrity Vs. Popular appeal


If anything, I'm guilty of making hi-fi mixes which present the music well but lack overall character. Friends of mine use weird and wonderful ways of mixing and have a distinct identity to their product (identifiable mix tone, not the music) using techniques I certainly would not use... Where's the envy emoticon!!!  It'd be nice to switch between character and full range at will.


I think the G*A*S* debate has been pretty well covered and I agree that it is a hinderance to the progress of guitarists just beginning to write and find their own voice, being so concerned about outside forces rather than their hands, minds and creativity in writing. Gear IS the point of a studio.


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## ThePinealGland (Jun 17, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> That just hit something there.
> 
> It turns out that because of all of the Axe Fx users, it's set a standard in terms of musical production. All the afformentioned bands have come to great success in creating great produced music. I'm not gonna get into the whole "AxeFx is awesome/sterile" or "subjective" arguments as I've already stated my opinion on my first posts. I will say that the Axe Fx is really good, and has become successful in leading the way to the future of music and music production.
> 
> ...



I think you completely missed the point and just restated "I like the Axe-FX. It's great." Leading the way of future music production? No, not at all. People have been using PODs forever, and plenty of people use free amp sims with IRs already too. Some of those free amp sims actually sound better than the Axe-FX for modern metal, IMO. The bands are popular because they write good music and can play their instruments well. I like these bands. I've already said that. That doesn't instantly make their albums "great productions"... Listen to what Joey Sturgis does with a POD. Listen to Paul Wardingham's amazing album Assimilate Regnerate recorded all with a POD. 

Anyways, home production in general is the future of music, but it doesn't have to be amp sims, and these amp sims aren't better than what we have already. In fact, the majority of the most highly respected professional producers in modern metal are still miking up cabs and the quality of those albums stands on its own. It doesn't cost a fortune to record DIs to later send off to someone to reamp if you really can't mic up a cab yourself.


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## Sepultorture (Jun 17, 2011)

this threa is going to always come full circle there's no real right or wrong going on here

an amatuer can do all programmed drums, amp sims and IR's and turn out some damn good sounding product, and that's fantastic, cus really not all of us can afford a multitude of mics, a drum kit, consoles, different amps/cabs and so on, for what sims and irs and programmed drums are right now, they sound good, defiintely not the line 6 shit of the days of old. and obviously not miced drum and cabs, but it's getting there.

and i love miced up kits/cabs, their sound is still amazing and i would never want to see that given up

but really in the end i still care if it sounds good to me


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jun 17, 2011)

ThePinealGland said:


> I think you completely missed the point and just restated "I like the Axe-FX. It's great." Leading the way of future music production? No, not at all. People have been using PODs forever, and plenty of people use free amp sims with IRs already too. Some of those free amp sims actually sound better than the Axe-FX for modern metal, IMO. The bands are popular because they write good music and can play their instruments well. I like these bands. I've already said that. That doesn't instantly make their albums "great productions"... Listen to what Joey Sturgis does with a POD. Listen to Paul Wardingham's amazing album Assimilate Regnerate recorded all with a POD.
> 
> Anyways, home production in general is the future of music, but it doesn't have to be amp sims, and these amp sims aren't better than what we have already. In fact, the majority of the most highly respected professional producers in modern metal are still miking up cabs and the quality of those albums stands on its own. It doesn't cost a fortune to record DIs to later send off to someone to reamp if you really can't mic up a cab yourself.



You've completely missed the point of my post. 

My reason on choosing the AxeFx was merely an example, not to contradict any POD recordings, simply because well... the unit is pretty popular in this forum.  Nothing more. You've focused far too much on the AxeFx/POD debate, it seems you're only validating the OP even more. 

You also said it yourself. The bands are good because the music is good and you like them. And no, it doesn't always make their albums great production. That is a key factor to what makes an album good. It's a powerful tool, but it should not be the main focus over music. It becomes the focus once the music is solidified. That's what countless hours of writing/jamming/practicing and pre-production is for. 

To be frankly honest, I couldn't care less whether it's real amps or amps sims are used in home production, or any production for the matter. PODs, AxeFx, a Pignose, you can use whatever you have to, want and can afford. As long as you get the sound you're trying to achieve in your music... and your music has to be good enough before going through the production gauntlet.



sevenstringj said:


> And of course louder = moar better.



Not necessarily:









Mattayus said:


> To the original question:
> 
> I think only at amateur level. People too often will write music to facilitate mixing practice, or to hone in their home production skills. Home production has become a niche thing of late and people are becoming obsessed with it, thinking they can automatically release 'albums' if they get a few cracked programs.
> 
> The way it still is for most bands that "make it", however, is they will form a band, an actual band, that will write music at band practice, play a few shows, then go to a producer who will take care of that shit for them. So in the sense of the actual music scene? No, I don't think people care more about the production than the music. At internet forum level? Fuck yes. But only in some cases.


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## sevenstringj (Jun 17, 2011)

Bloody_Inferno said:


> Not necessarily:



LOL, I was being sarcastic.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 18, 2011)

sevenstringj said:


> LOL, I was being sarcastic.



Well it's not the other way around either. Louder sometimes works wonders IMO.


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 18, 2011)

Dudes I ended the thread on page 1


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## Daemoniac (Jun 18, 2011)

^ I disagree with your post on page 1  

Well, partially anyway.

Yes, it _can_ make a great riff sound amazing, or help that drumkit stand out, _however_ I also believe just how much or how good the production is or needs to be is definitely dependent on the market of the music, the style of the music, and the aim of the musicians.

For example; Let's take, say, Dead Kennedys and give them absolutely pristine production and that perfect guitar tone. Seems wrong, no? For once the shithouse mix and all those hodgepodge grouping of elements actually seems appropriate. On the flip side though, I would agree that if you took something like Periphery but gave their music the Dead Kennedys/punk approach something would be seriously lacking.

All things in context


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 18, 2011)

Daemoniac said:


> ^ I disagree with your post on page 1
> 
> Well, partially anyway.
> 
> ...



Doesn't sound like you disagree to me, I agree with your post wholeheartedly. I was talking about the obvious specific context of metal, which is what most of us are here to discuss.


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## Daemoniac (Jun 18, 2011)

Ah, it felt like you were talking in a much more general sense 

DAMN YOU, INTERWEB AND YOUR LACK OF CONTEXT


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## yidcorer (Jun 18, 2011)

My brain thinks that bands striving for perfect productions wouldn´t be listened to by anyone if their albums were poorly produced. Sturgiscore-bands, I am looking at you


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## Prydogga (Jun 18, 2011)

^ I agree on the Sturgiscore part, but I know some perfectly...err... perfect bands that stive for perfect production and still have great musical content, like, go listen to Devin Townsend or Gojira in 240p on Youtube, still good music. So your thinking only applies to 'some' bands


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 18, 2011)

I just listened to Attack Attacks self titled and I have to say, Joey Sturgis is a genius.


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## Antenna (Jun 18, 2011)




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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm being serious.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 18, 2011)

Scar Symmetry said:


> I'm being serious.



He is genious. @Antenna, he's not a part of Attack, Attack, but their producer.


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## Antenna (Jun 18, 2011)

lol I know who Joey Sturgis is bro. I actually didn't like that album to be honest and not just because its that band, even production wise not my cup of tea. Vocals and drums were pretty well done though. I mainly just thought that was funny because it was Attack Attack. I mean he's done some better bands, and his solo stuff is fuckin AWESOMETASTIC! No offense to any one.


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## yidcorer (Jun 18, 2011)

But is the producer that decides to stick to a formula...a good producer?

Also, does he always use sampled drums or does he actually work on tweaking real ones?


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## Antenna (Jun 18, 2011)

yidcorer said:


> Also, does he always use sampled drums or does he actually work on tweaking real ones?


 
why does that matter?


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## flint757 (Jun 19, 2011)

I have to say to some degree people should focus more on it. Bands with a bad mix are hard to listen to, Vildhjarta is a good example of that. The production quality isn't bad, but it is so low and over compressed that it makes my ears hurt and if you play it through mediocre speakers, almost in audible.


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## in-pursuit (Jun 19, 2011)

I actually really liked the sound of the Vildhjarta demos, I'd be pretty happy if I could get my music to that quality.


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## getaway_fromme (Jun 19, 2011)

Without even reading the last few pages. I'll say this: you can't make a good mix without actual music of some kind, so the music is of course most important. Music can thrive without recording, whereas recording can't do anything on it's own. Case closed.


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## Kurkkuviipale (Jun 20, 2011)

getaway_fromme said:


> Without even reading the last few pages. I'll say this: you can't make a good mix without actual music of some kind, so the music is of course most important. Music can thrive without recording, whereas recording can't do anything on it's own. Case closed.



You can have a good mix even if the music is immature, bad, or just complete nonsense. That statement is false.


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## flint757 (Jun 21, 2011)

in-pursuit said:


> I actually really liked the sound of the Vildhjarta demos, I'd be pretty happy if I could get my music to that quality.



Well what I mean is it is good quality, but there is just something not entirely there for me. I think it just need more air if you know what I mean.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose...


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## fps (Jun 21, 2011)

People may kill me, but I don't like the production on Devin Townsend's Deconstruction... so much replacement in the drums, it's so clean too, could really have benefited from a bit more dirt and sweat in the mix IMO. 

I think home recording is producing a style of ultra compressed recording that totally sucks. And some metal doesn't work all perfect. I love Mastodon for instance, Leviathan and Blood Mountain clip, but it's the sound of a band blowing stuff up, so it works! Black metal doesn't work when everything is crystal either. A lot of metal is way too sanitised IMO.


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## JEBADIAH (Jun 21, 2011)

I agree, there is so much emphasis on production now the music really has suffered ,
but on the flip side , when I hear a great tune with a stellar production I'm hooked

After all, the production is the "presentation" of the music, 
I think, in the long run, if you dig the music , you won't really bother too much of the Mixing chops.
But I am not saying badly produced music should be the norm.


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