# The truth about Blackmachines?



## Velokki (Nov 30, 2018)

They seem to be these mythical pieces of wood, forged in the ancient underworld by the long forgotten kings of luthiery.

Have you played one? Have you owned one? Do you own one?
What do you think of them? Are they worth their fame, or has the hype gone way out of hand? How do they compare quality/feel-wise to, let's say, Ibanez Prestiges, ESP, Skervesen?

Are they really, magically good?


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## JoeyJoJoJrShabadoo (Nov 30, 2018)

No guitar is worth the money a lot of BMs go for, regardless of brand or quality.


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## guitaardvark (Nov 30, 2018)

An old friend of mine (now banned on this forum) owned four of them. I got to play one on one occasion. While it was an excellent guitar, I wouldn't call them the "holy grail" as a lot of people tend to do, nor would I go so far as to say they're unexceptional like a lot of people are saying now that the hype around them is gone. They are phenomenal playing and sounding guitars.

The B6 I played was far better than either of the Prestiges I've owned. I haven't played a ton of Custom Shop guitars from a lot of brands, but I'd put the quality on par with a Suhr or a LACS. I played the B6 years ago, so I couldn't give you a closer comparison than that.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 30, 2018)

No. from what people who've actually played/owned them have told me, they're pretty varying in quality, and none of them are some secret voodoo magic that will make you dj00nt better. If you're going to spend stupid amounts of money on a guitar then stick with small builders who actually still build, and do so consistently well (ie carillion, waghorn, ran, ken lawrence, nik huber, etc).


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## Dyingsea (Nov 30, 2018)

Are blackmachines still even relevant? Seems like that hype ship sailed a couple years ago and you don't even see new builds.


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## Lorcan Ward (Nov 30, 2018)

^The hype has largely died down because people who wanted one were either lucky enough to buy one knew, able to buy one second hand or simply got another B2 style guitar from one of the countless luthiers building them. He doesn't build much anymore for a number of reasons. 

There's lot of threads on this site going into detail about them, just google sevenstring.org and blackmachine. You'll find everything you need to know.


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## TheUnknownOne (Nov 30, 2018)

Everytime a brand goes H Y P E , I just try to remember that the CHON guys shredded the s*** out of two RG421's for years. Makes my wallet happier !


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## Mathemagician (Nov 30, 2018)

It’s a custom shop super Strat shape. At a certain price point you are just paying for looks/specs since the build quality will be about the same. 

These things are made of wood and metal not unicorn horns.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Nov 30, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> No. from what people who've actually played/owned them have told me, they're pretty varying in quality, and none of them are some secret voodoo magic that will make you dj00nt better. If you're going to spend stupid amounts of money on a guitar then stick with small builders who actually still build, and do so consistently well (ie carillion, waghorn, ran, ken lawrence, nik huber, etc).



I was just gunna let this post slide on by but you mentioned Carillion so I had to like it.
--

Yeah from my understanding Blackmachines were just like any other custom shop. They just got blown out of proportion because a lot of popular artists in one particular scene happened to pick them up for a while. Average build quality was high, but typically not perfect, and the early builds were a little rough. From most of the B2 owners I've heard from and spoken to, the B6's that Feline is cranking out are probably of higher _average _build quality. 

As people have mentioned, the hype has largely disappeared and anyone buying a Dougmachine right now is probably going to lose money on it. And, again, past a certain point, you're paying for a shape, design, pedigree, or reputation rather than build quality. To someone like me, that's good enough. I'd be totally happy dropping $4,000 on a Blackmachine if it felt and played like a $1000 Prestige because that shape is the perfect guitar shape to me. So long as you know what you want, temper your expectations and don't expect some mythical piece of wood, you'll be fine.


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## Threadnaught (Nov 30, 2018)

I have a left handed B6 built by Feline, and I have to say it's one of my favourite guitars that I've played. It's lightweight and resonant, the neck is flat-tish and fast but not ultra thin, the fret work is excellent - beautifully dressed and rounded ends. It sounds snappy and is really pleasurable to play. It also smells amazing. I don't know about the hype, but I can tell you Feline put an amazing amount of work into this build.



20180226_122009-COLLAGE


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## gunch (Nov 30, 2018)

TheUnknownOne said:


> Everytime a brand goes H Y P E , I just try to remember that the CHON guys shredded the s*** out of two RG421's for years. Makes my wallet happier !



Preach

Blackmachine was a perfect storm convergence of the internet maturing into the current social media era, the emergence of Djent and all the cults of personality it spawned and the late 00's, early 10's flirt with design minimalism


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## cwhitey2 (Nov 30, 2018)

Threadnaught said:


> It also smells amazing.


Im really only interested in this.


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## C-PIG (Nov 30, 2018)

i have never owned one but i have played 2 of them , not worth the money or the hype , but they are great guitars.


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## KnightBrolaire (Nov 30, 2018)

cwhitey2 said:


> Im really only interested in this.


My knightro guitars smell like fresh oranges all the time because they were finished in odies oil.


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## Miek (Nov 30, 2018)

a b2 is, as it has been for the past 14+ years, my dream guitar


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## cwhitey2 (Nov 30, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> My knightro guitars smell like fresh oranges all the time because they were finished in odies oil.


I love when you talk juicy to me


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## Shoeless_jose (Nov 30, 2018)

TLDR: Its a Friday thread


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## Ziricote (Nov 30, 2018)

OliOliver said:


> No guitar is worth the money a lot of BMs go for, regardless of brand or quality.



I cant afford one and never will but lets not allow prices to cloud our conversations every time we discuss this guitars. He wants more depth point of actual view on guitars as a guitars not as a chunk of money. Money aside, so how is the Blackmachine you have played?


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## Humbuck (Nov 30, 2018)

I have 2 B6's (an older one and a newer one) because they are absolutely incredible guitars. 2 of the best guitars I've ever played. I don't give a damn about hype or djent or whatever. I'm old.

Ask Leah Woodward about B2's...


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## dmlinger (Nov 30, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> Ask Leah Woodward about B2's...



She seems to be buying everyone's B2s! Was stunned to see Misha sold his koa B2 to her last month. Remember seeing a video of him stating it was the one guitar he'd ever sell....haha

Leah has, I believe, 6 B2s and 1 B7.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 1, 2018)

God it’s 2018. 

Just let blackmachine die.


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## Velokki (Dec 1, 2018)

I don't get the "just let blackmachine die" comments either. If you post like that, I presume you've never played one?

I'm a FB friend of Leah's, and took a Skype lesson from her. Wonderful woman! Of course she's totally bananas about the guitars, she's probably spent a small mortgage on those guitars. But asking her for an objective opinion of Blackmachines would be like trying
to ask an evangelical car salesman of one brand about other car brands. Or the pope about islam! You know Leah has seen the light and chosen her path, haha. And that's fine!

What I'd like to hear more, are opinions from those who have played or owned one! Let them flow.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 1, 2018)

Dude everyone here who has ever played one on this forum has talked about it multiple times. It’s 2018. You are almost 10 years past the time when everyone was getting theirs and they were being swapped around the forums.


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## narad (Dec 1, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> ^The hype has largely died down because people who wanted one were either lucky enough to buy one knew, able to buy one second hand or simply got another B2 style guitar from one of the countless luthiers building them.



And also because all the people that hyped them have other sig guitars now? I feel like the 16 year olds that want to fantasize about something are all about Aristides these days.

I probably find ways of justifying high-priced guitars more than normal so I'd still buy one particular B7 if it popped up < $10k, but other than that I'm over it.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 1, 2018)

Legitimately had to make sure the date on the OP was 2018 and not 2008. 

Has anyone tried an AxeFx yet?


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## ikarus (Dec 1, 2018)

narad said:


> I'd still buy one particular B7 if it popped up



Which one?


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## narad (Dec 1, 2018)

ikarus said:


> Which one?



Shhh. Like I should come out and admit that I want it/let the owner know there is market for it? ;-)


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 1, 2018)

Not gonna be the same without misha coming by to pump the price.


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## angl2k (Dec 1, 2018)

I think they're hideous and look like an unfinished guitar. Haven't played one but I guess it plays smoothly.. just as my 800 bucks ESP does 

Were they hyped? Yes. Were they the holy grail of guitars? To some. Will they keep their value? Only time will tell.


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## cwhitey2 (Dec 1, 2018)

narad said:


> I feel like the 16 year olds that want to fantasize about something are all about Aristides these days.


I'm 31 and that is what I fantasize about


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## Velokki (Dec 1, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Legitimately had to make sure the date on the OP was 2018 and not 2008.
> 
> Has anyone tried an AxeFx yet?



Hahaha, this made me laugh. Point taken.

The whole point about this thread was to see beneath the bullshit. I know a fair bit about "bubbles" and over-appreciation due to hype. I'm just trying to see what the reality is here.

Scenario 1:
-Person A buys a B2 in 2012. The hype around the instruments is over the top, and all the respected dj0ntists rave about them.
-Person A really thinks the instrument is great. Since the hype around it also is tingling, he writes a review using superlative adjectives, and says the guitar is the best they've ever tried.
-Due to very scarce supply, even people who wouldn't normally buy such a guitar, get interested and start asking questions about these guitars... further building the mystique and hype.

Now, in that example, the Blackmachine could very well have been equivalent of an ESP LTD for all I care - if it plays great, sounds great etc, the player will enjoy the guitar. Now if there's a mystical hype around that specific model, human condition is to add to the hype by raving about it. If Blackmachines were readily available, I doubt much mystique would exist.

It's also possible that the instrument is really, really exceptional with the best possible timbers and it's really worthy of the hype. Now, objectively looking whether a Skervesen Raptor would be "just as good", within reason, would be an interesting question.

Now Scenario 2 is a bit more ugly:
-Person B buys a B2 in 2012, like person A.
-The instrument is decent. Tuning issues and some issues with the build are present, but playability is good/great.
-Having spent thousands for such a prestigious instrument, he goes to write about it like it's the best guitar they've ever tried. He's not 100% convinced, and ultimately likes his ESP MH-1000 more, but still behaves like this. This is also very normal human behavior, it happens because a person wants to justify their purchase or belong to a group. 

Facing the truth that the guitar is not worthy of the hype, would be much more painful than perpetuating the hype. He might also think that little tuning flaws are ok, and the build errors are part of the design. He can genuinely think that "I'm sure it will grow on me, just takes time", or "If I think this is not perfect, I must be evaluating the guitar wrong, and my standards are unreasonable".
We see this all the time with Apple products in consumer electronics (I recommend listening to this).

He may proceed to sell the instrument with a really good profit, for the hype has only grown during his ownership... the NGD thread even has replies with offers to buy the guitar, so it's easy, too.

Now, when considerable time has passed, and the hype train has run out of coal, I'd love to hear *a 2018 opinion of these guitars from those who have played or owned them*. I think the opinions from years ago can be way sugarcoated, because of the reasons stated above. I would argue that posts like "lol wut, r u from 2008" or "still asking dis question, wuddis wrong with u lel" are not really constructive! I did get your point though, and will admit to having laughed while reading these replies.

My dream for this thread would be that 5 current owners of Doug's guitars, and 5 who have owned but sold them, would tell their honest thoughts.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 1, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Hahaha, this made me laugh. Point taken.
> 
> The whole point about this thread was to see beneath the bullshit. I know a fair bit about "bubbles" and over-appreciation due to hype. I'm just trying to see what the reality is here.
> 
> ...



The thing is, there haven't been many, if any, Blackmachine guitars built in the last 5 or 10 years that weren't going to either a longtime friend of Doug or a well monied artist/collector that doesn't post here.

So, at best, you'll probably get some info on guitars built close to a decade ago.

Search the site, and the web in general, you should get all the info you need.


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## Velokki (Dec 1, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> So, at best, you'll probably get some info on guitars built close to a decade ago.


Would love a 2018 opinion of those!


MaxOfMetal said:


> Search the site, and the web in general, you should get all the info you need.


Yeah, if only the site search would work...


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 1, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Would love a 2018 opinion of those!
> 
> Yeah, if only the site search would work...



Good luck. I don't think you're going to get much info, especially on here now. Five or six years ago maybe. 

For search, use Google. Just copy and paste this into Google: "blackmachine site:sevenstring.org". Without quotes obviously.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 1, 2018)

narad said:


> And also because all the people that hyped them have other sig guitars now? I feel like the 16 year olds that want to fantasize about something are all about Aristides these days.
> 
> I probably find ways of justifying high-priced guitars more than normal so I'd still buy one particular B7 if it popped up < $10k, but other than that I'm over it.



Hey man I can buy an Aristides right now. So there’s some difference.


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## jephjacques (Dec 1, 2018)

And Aristides actually live up to the hype, they're fuckin fantastic guitars


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## crackout (Dec 1, 2018)

Sadly, I never played one to see what the fuzz is all about.
But I fell in love with their looks, which is why I built two B2 tribute guitars to play. This way I could even add some quirks the OGs do not have (belly cut, recessed jack, rounded armrest etc.). Case closed for me.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 1, 2018)

Ok since you're genuinely eager for some answers.



Velokki said:


> Have you played one? Have you owned one? Do you own one? What do you think of them?



I've played 2 B2s, a B7, a FF8 and 3 B6s. They are incredible guitars built by a very dedicated and passionate builder, not to mention a very skilled player. I was on the list for a B2 but the prices got more outrageous every year so it never happened. I would have loved to have got mine a few years ago but my preferences have changed quite a but so certain features don't appeal to me now. The Koa B2 I tried is still one of the finest instruments I've ever played and I've based nearly all my customs off it and Doug's approach to an instrument. 



Velokki said:


> Are they worth their fame, or has the hype gone way out of hand?



The whole reason Doug made them was to disprove guitar myths at the time and build guitars for his friends. He still mainly only builds for friends and only dabbled in the commercial side of building for a few years before deciding it wasn't for him. The whole hype behind it was generated by owners and people who had never played one. It was an extremely unique guitar at the time so its no wonder the whole thing blew up to unicorn levels. Supply and demand is what drove the second hand price so high, very little of that was Doug's doing. Hell a Korean made Strandberg in the UK now costs more than an early B2 used to even after a number of price increases.



Velokki said:


> How do they compare quality/feel-wise to, let's say, Ibanez Prestiges, ESP, Skervesen?



I've played and owned a bunch of BM copies, the raptor I briefly owned didn't feel, play or sound much like one. Blackwater is probably the closest anyone has got. Aaron also improved on a bunch of areas too. Instead of just copying the design since thats what most people wanted, he took a step back and improved on it. Quality wise I'd need to hold one again to judge it since I've learned a lot since then but thats a hard question. What really appealed to me was how good they sounded and played, they had this undeniable mojo where riffs and licks just poured out.

Anything more specific?


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## narad (Dec 1, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> It was *an extremely unique guitar at the time* so its no wonder the whole thing blew up to unicorn levels.



By...being a bit thinner than normal?


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 1, 2018)

At the time it was exotic and unique looking, the unusual woods, thin body, fixed bridges, multi-scale, the reverse headstock with a chunk removed, passive pickups etc very unusual features back then to the average guitar player. This was a time when you would be laughed out of auditions for not having actives and the heavier your guitar the thicker the sound. A BM was a real headturner to people with Jems and Les Pauls.


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## Ziricote (Dec 1, 2018)

Was anyone using Rosewood for necks before Doug? He started this wood for necks. And what about his custom bridges he made and unique compound radius fretboards? Also he only use old growth wood for top and body and not build without old growth woods? 

I think people just want "hype" to end so they someday buy one for cheap. This doesnt sound so bad to me. But in the reality I still wont afford this guitars.

Why isnt there more recordings with these guitars? did anyone bands use them in the studios?


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## Thrashman (Dec 1, 2018)

Used to own a B6 - spectacular guitars in every sense of the word. Super resonant, full and silky smooth tone but still aggressive. Very 3D-esque.
It also felt and sounded a lot like a chambered guitar although it wasn't, very peculiar and is part of what sold me on them apart from the playability and overall sound.

Neck shape is like a chunkier ibanez wizard neck which I really liked.

Are they magical or unique? No, they're just great guitars with their own kind of sound.


Sold mine to fund some Aristides' guitars which happened to be everything I was/am looking for in a guitar.


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## MaxOfMetal (Dec 1, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> Was anyone using Rosewood for necks before Doug? He started this wood for necks.



Several builders did for decades before.



> And what about his custom bridges he made



They were just Strat bridges, then Schaller.



> and unique compound radius fretboards?



Far from the first. Those go back to the 70's at least.



> Also he only use old growth wood for top and body and not build without old growth woods?



There is nothing unique about the woods he used.


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## narad (Dec 1, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> Was anyone using Rosewood for necks before Doug? He started this wood for necks. And what about his custom bridges he made and unique compound radius fretboards? Also he only use old growth wood for top and body and not build without old growth woods?



Pretty much everyone outside the SSO/ERG community. I mean, on TGP they're a little too strong on it, would probably laugh someone off for thinking any sort of Ibanez could be a decent guitar. But lots of cool wood combinations going on with the builders popular there, both now and then.

So I give props to Doug for taking the stuff that was successful among boutique guitars and bringing it to an Ibanez-type form-factor, and to a demographic that would associate handmade guitars with like Bernie Rico Jr and Hufschmid..few others...slim pickings. But aside from the thin-ness I'm not seeing anything functionally interesting. The headstock, the binding, the beveled edge, the tele control layout, the branding on the back -- all pretty unique stuff, but not something that's going to make a guitar any better than any other.

And I guess I can sort of give him props on the fanned fret stuff, but I don't think anyone talks about blackmachine now because of the FF8s. The guitars that got all hyped up were B2/B7s. And certainly not B6s. Kind of funny to see them even mentioned when people talk about blackmachine hype -- B6s are $3-4k all day apart from a few months of a hype bump years ago before production took off. I had one of the earliest B6 examples out there -- probably the 2nd earliest one built. I would describe it as a "decent" guitar. It sat here in the for sale section for like 3 months at $2500. Then some famous people played them and it became a $5500 guitar for a while. That's hype.


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## Jonathan20022 (Dec 1, 2018)

My personal B6 was completely average at best and fell short against nearly every EBMM I've ever played. These guitar's skyrocketing values is so ridiculous, I feel like people wanted the blackmachine to be a unircorn in this community. This ridiculous unattainable perfection in the realm of build quality and tone, these guitars aren't that special to me. I've played two B6's and a B2, great guitars and I've definitely played and heard better especially when you scale down the value and compare them objectively to other guitars. 

My Blackwater DII was ironically better than every blackmachine I've had my hands on. The only thing missing was this mystery chambering pattern people have speculated on for years.

The B2/6 design is sick as hell, and that's all I'll ever give it because that's what is objectively unique about them. I do however have a cap on how much I'm willing to spend to acquire the design. It sure as hell isn't 5 figures.


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## Hollowway (Dec 1, 2018)

I can never figure out if this is an Emperor’s New Clothes thing, or a Beanie Babies thing. Maybe a combination of both. Certainly a number of people have profited off of the “Blackmachine bubble,” but I think a lot of people honestly believe there’s some mojo going on.


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## prlgmnr (Dec 1, 2018)

It's just weird seeing "Hufschmid" on here.


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## narad (Dec 2, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> It's just weird seeing "Hufschmid" on here.



Was scared to type it. I think it's a trap.


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## Lord Voldemort (Dec 2, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> It's just weird seeing "Hufschmid" on here.



Why is that? I follow him on social media, he makes some pretty cool guitars.


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## StevenC (Dec 2, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> Why is that? I follow him on social media, he makes some pretty cool guitars.


His name was banned here for years after some shady stuff. It just appeared as .........

Then the forum moved over to the current system and some hero discovered that it had been uncensored.


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## Humbuck (Dec 2, 2018)

dmlinger said:


> She seems to be buying everyone's B2s! Was stunned to see Misha sold his koa B2 to her last month. Remember seeing a video of him stating it was the one guitar he'd ever sell....haha
> 
> Leah has, I believe, 6 B2s and 1 B7.



And a B6!


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## ddtonfire (Dec 2, 2018)

FWIW, I bought a B6 (granted, a Felinemachine) a few months ago and someone asked me if it lived up to the hype. I replied with something like this:



> So I think the hype is impossible to reach for any instrument, but it's a blast to play and really cool to own something so rare. It sounds INCREDIBLE through my JP-2C with shred mode on since it has a much darker tone than my other guitars. The hype for the palm mutes and resonance is real - they sound HUGE and it's loud unplugged. It plays really well and comfortably and when I pick it up, I can't put it back down.
> 
> If I had to compare it to anything, I'd say it's like a Ferrari or Aston Martin - a bit temperamental but it _flies _and you look back at it each time you park it. I'm not sure the previous owner took the best care of it as I've had to replace the jack and the switch might need resoldered soon, too. The strings past the nut tend to ring out but fretwraps took care of that. It would be cool if Doug/Jon did what Skervesen does with the little foam mute behind the nut. All in all, I'm very satisfied with it and glad I picked it up.



Compared to my EBMM Petrucci's, it's a different tool that accomplishes different things. If I want to play huge riffs in Drop C or lower, I pick up the Blackmachine. If I want to shred, I pick up the Trooches. Of course, either guitar can accomplish both of those, but one is more apt to elicit that type of playing than the other.

Blackmachines were the perfect storm of timing, big-named players as early adopters, pricing, rarity, and mythos. They're worth it to try if you can since they hold their value pretty well and people jump at them when they do pop up (I just saw Misha's old B6 go for like $5k on reverb a few hours after it posted. It was the only one I've seen for sale since my own). Mine inspires me each time I play it, so that's worth it to me.


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## narad (Dec 3, 2018)

But... Does hype apply to B6s really? I mean... If anything they're cheaper for most people these days than they were previously, with the post brexit exchange rates. Saw many pop up in the $3k range over the past year. Obviously your own enjoyment trumps the rest of it but Ferrari or Aston Martin?


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## _MonSTeR_ (Dec 3, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> At the time it was exotic and unique looking, the unusual woods, thin body, fixed bridges, multi-scale, the reverse headstock with a chunk removed, passive pickups etc very unusual features back then to the average guitar player. This was a time when you would be laughed out of auditions for not having actives and the heavier your guitar the thicker the sound. A BM was a real headturner to people with Jems and Les Pauls.




I first tried a Blackmachine in 2003, I think that most of us who saw them back then liked them but saw them more as “quirky” rather than exotic and unique looking.

But yeah, the thin body was “wrong” at the time when others were looking at 55mm thick bodies.

As far as hard tailed natural finish superstrats went back then, I preferred my Ibanez JS6. It was basically the same, but I was convinced it had more resale value


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## ddtonfire (Dec 3, 2018)

narad said:


> But... Does hype apply to B6s really? I mean... If anything they're cheaper for most people these days than they were previously, with the post brexit exchange rates. Saw many pop up in the $3k range over the past year. Obviously your own enjoyment trumps the rest of it but Ferrari or Aston Martin?



I think it extends to B6's since starry-eyed players like me see Blackmachine on the body and the iconic headstock up top. I couldn't really think of a better analogy.


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## khm (Dec 3, 2018)

Doug wanted to endorse my band many eons ago, and came down to our studio with several bags of BM guitars for the band to try out, they where fantastic guitars and he was an extremely nice chap. We ended up spending most of the night talking motorbikes. Unfortunaly I was playing bass in that particular band, so couldn't afford to invest in a new guitar (even though it was being offered at a ridiculously cheap price as he liked the band) - I still regret to this day not buying one. I didn't even realise there was any hype at the time, as we had only been put in contact through a mutual friend on Myspace (that tells you how long ago it was).

Jonathon @ feline has been my go to for as long as I can remember (until I moved to The Netherlands a few years back) and he makes fantastic guitars as well, and is a life long friend of Doug, so would love to try out one of his and dougs BM's one day - 2 of my favourite Luthiers.


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## xwmucradiox (Dec 3, 2018)

I ordered a B2 in 2006 and received it in 2008. It was made with the wrong body wood. Doug said I would have to go to the back of the line if I wanted one made with the body wood I ordered. The guitar that arrived was fine but by no means a $4000 guitar. I would have preferred an RGA121 for $800 instead. It showed a lot of evidence that Doug wasn't very adept at using tools or performing finish work. There was a lot of tearout on the binding route that he filled with white filler for some reason even though the guitar was a natural oil finish. There were numerous sanding swirls in the ebony top where he had used a random orbital sander the wrong way and with old sandpaper. I've posted about this guitar in more detail elsewhere if you search around. I don't know where the guitar is now but Im sure whoever owns it is very happy because its worth a pile of money at this point. 

That guitar was not a great guitar but I firmly believe that it would have been built much better if I were a famous player. Im sure the djent dudes that owned fancy ones had great guitars. Or they were just fibbing about how nice they were to preserve or increase value. My impression was that Doug somewhat deigned to build guitars for regular folks and would put in minimal effort if you weren't going to do something for his brand by owning a guitar.


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## Ataraxia2320 (Dec 3, 2018)

Played 2 Black machines. 

One was a b7 with a spalted top. Looked the tits but there was nothing special about how it played. It was a great guitar but the price was insane. 

The other was a really plain b2. This guitar was the absolute tits. I have never played a guitar that has reacted to my playing so well. I honestly felt like every other guitars had latency in comparrison if that makes any sense to people here. 

The jury is still out for me.


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## cip 123 (Dec 3, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> Was anyone using Rosewood for necks before Doug? He started this wood for necks. And what about his custom bridges he made and unique compound radius fretboards? Also he only use old growth wood for top and body and not build without old growth woods?
> 
> I think people just want "hype" to end so they someday buy one for cheap. This doesnt sound so bad to me. But in the reality I still wont afford this guitars.
> 
> Why isnt there more recordings with these guitars? did anyone bands use them in the studios?


Are you aware how silly you sound?

I think everyone wants the hype to end so we can see if they live up to any sort of price. The only people that want hype are doug and the people who own the so they can make money. Hype Gone means more people get their hands on them, which means more people can critique Doug. 

Also loads of builders have done rosewood before him.

His "Custom" bridges? Most of them look like the cheap chines strat hardtail bridges, or a metal plate with wilkinson saddles (Most people on this forum do that in the build section). Then he switched to Schaller. 

Compound radius has been around for years, ask any builder and they'll do whatever radius you want if you pay them.

Who cares how old the body wood is? There are builders using old wood and younger woods, and they all make amazing quality stuff. 

None of what you said makes Doug special or better at guitars. In fact one guy AVH guitar repairs, who does meshuggah's guitars, took a Blackmachine 8 apart one time, and I'm fairly certain he didn't hold it to the mythical standard that players do.


----------



## Element0s (Dec 3, 2018)

I haven't had the chance to play a real Blackmachine but I've owned my VSK OS6 (essentially a B-Machine copy) for about two years and it's a wonderful piece of kit. I use it on all my band's recordings. I don't think Brett (from VSK) is building too much these days but every so often one of his builds will pop up in the $1000-$1,200 usd range and if my guitar is any indication, they are incredible quality for that price point. Might be worth keeping your eyes out for.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Dec 4, 2018)

That 8 string one you're talking about @cip 123 was literally held together using drywall screws as the neck screws. There is nothing special about these instruments, they're just great well crafted guitars. But so is anything else in the high end boutique market.


----------



## Andromalia (Dec 4, 2018)

They had pretty ebony tops and people wee doing seances about them. That's about it. I suspect some people were looking to create a hype to sell theirs.


----------



## narad (Dec 4, 2018)

Andromalia said:


> They had pretty ebony tops and people wee doing seances about them. That's about it. I suspect some people were looking to create a hype to sell theirs.



The PDF document entitled like, "why black machine guitars are worth $20k", by the guy that later flipped his black machine, comes to mind...

But ya, the ebony tops weren't even one piece. I didn't find that out for years. So like, three ebony fretboards side by side. Not the rarest thing out there


----------



## Andromalia (Dec 4, 2018)

I liked the color scheme, at that time the natural wood craze hadn't erupted yet, it was still mostly all paints and abalone so they did look somewhat special. I never really lusted after them, either, I'd rather buy a few Rolexes than a blackmachine.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Dec 4, 2018)

This is no different to the Nike Air Mag Back to the Future shoes, retail on them was a few thousand dollars. And there was such a low quantity made that anyone who has it is reselling them for 5 figures.

But at least those things lace themselves


----------



## StevenC (Dec 4, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> This is no different to the Nike Air Mag Back to the Future shoes, retail on them was a few thousand dollars. And there was such a low quantity made that anyone who has it is reselling them for 5 figures.
> 
> But at least those things lace themselves


So your saying Blackmachines need robot tuners?


----------



## Xaios (Dec 4, 2018)

StevenC said:


> So your saying Blackmachines need robot tuners?


Where do you think the "machine" in Blackmachine comes from?


----------



## Andromalia (Dec 4, 2018)

Jonathan20022 said:


> This is no different to the Nike Air Mag Back to the Future shoes, retail on them was a few thousand dollars. And there was such a low quantity made that anyone who has it is reselling them for 5 figures.
> 
> But at least those things lace themselves



Well, to be fair fans have pestered Nike to make those for decades, and the target audience is *a bit* bigger than the one for custom guitars made in England by a specific dude in 2010.



> Where do you think the "machine" in Blackmachine comes from?


Depends, do you want a SFW answer or not ?


----------



## ArtDecade (Dec 4, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> Was anyone using Rosewood for necks before Doug? He started this wood for necks. And what about his custom bridges he made and unique compound radius fretboards? Also he only use old growth wood for top and body and not build without old growth woods?
> 
> I think people just want "hype" to end so they someday buy one for cheap. This doesnt sound so bad to me. But in the reality I still wont afford this guitars.
> 
> Why isnt there more recordings with these guitars? did anyone bands use them in the studios?


----------



## Ziricote (Dec 4, 2018)

Thanks SSorg for this I was only thinking about Blackmachine guitar all night and this morning watching videos. Ok I understand this is the most copied and desired guitars of this last decade from designs and playing aspects but can people who have the copymachines please say COPY NOT REAL in their Youtube vids? I just watch 5 videos thinking they were some real Blackmachines. The ormsby and Skerv have different headstocks and are not 100% copies even though they are heavy inspired by, but the ones built identical really should to be labeled as the such. Definitely there is more copies than the real things. I think the values could drop and we still wont see them for sale which is very frustrating. I want to own one someday but also to see them in more people hands for more comparison legitimately reviewing. I cant find one for sale right now at any price. They might all be in collector hands. Do people who own them today collect or actual play them?


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## ArtDecade (Dec 4, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> Ok I understand this is the most copied and desired guitars of this last decade



Most copied and desired guitar of the last decade?! You are over-valuing them because you want one. The overwhelming majority of players have no idea what a Blackmachine even is - let alone having an interest in buying/playing derivatives of it. Blackmachine is a super duper niche market.


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## Ziricote (Dec 4, 2018)

ArtDecade said:


> Most copied and desired guitar of the last decade?! You are over-valuing them because you want one. The overwhelming majority of players have no idea what a Blackmachine even is - let alone having an interest in buying/playing derivatives of it. Blackmachine is a super duper niche market.


I want one because of threads like this!


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## t o k u g a w a (Dec 4, 2018)

I ordered a B6 directly from Doug some years back. To my knowledge I was the first B6 to have the Schaller-Hannes bridge installed. I had quite the wait. When it arrived I was underwhelmed. Sure, the B6 was a stripped down version of his other guitars, but I was expecting something more polished. 

Currently, I own a Suhr Modern Antique that just blows the B6 out of the water in EVERY aspect. Playability, sonically, fit and finish, and material quality. 

So, to answer the question, No, They are not magical.


----------



## Jonathan20022 (Dec 4, 2018)

StevenC said:


> So your saying Blackmachines need robot tuners?



Pretty much!  That would sell me on it 100%



Andromalia said:


> Well, to be fair fans have pestered Nike to make those for decades, and the target audience is *a bit* bigger than the one for custom guitars made in England by a specific dude in 2010.



For sure, but it's similar enough I'd say. Between the overall desire for the products and lack of availability causing the 2nd hand market to skyrocket.


----------



## Bentaycanada (Dec 4, 2018)

Threadnaught said:


> I have a left handed B6 built by Feline, and I have to say it's one of my favourite guitars that I've played. It's lightweight and resonant, the neck is flat-tish and fast but not ultra thin, the fret work is excellent - beautifully dressed and rounded ends. It sounds snappy and is really pleasurable to play. It also smells amazing. I don't know about the hype, but I can tell you Feline put an amazing amount of work into this build.
> 
> 
> 
> 20180226_122009-COLLAGE



Awesome. Jonathan at Feine is a good guy. He offered to build me one several years back. I had a lefty 7 string RG model of his and it was hands down one of the best guitars I ever owned (out of 60+).
If I ever had the money, I’d go for one in a heartbeat.


----------



## Drew (Dec 4, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Would love a 2018 opinion of those!


Same as the 2008, really. 

I don't think there's "truth" about anything this subjective. They're great guitars, I'm sure. They're also impossible to buy. Even if the specs were right up my ally (they're not), I think for the money I'd rather buy a Suhr, an Anderson, an American Fender, and maybe three or four bottles of really nice scotch, and take delivery inside a week, than try to hunt down a B7.


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## cip 123 (Dec 4, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> I want one because of threads like this!


You want one because of a thread where 90% of the people are saying they're not all they're hyped up to be.

Also here's a rule for the copies you see - If it looks like a blackmachine, it's probably not a blackmachine.


----------



## MFB (Dec 4, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Not gonna be the same without misha coming by to pump the price.



He must not have been having fun with his B2 if he was willing to sell it


----------



## narad (Dec 4, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> I cant find one for sale right now at any price. They might all be in collector hands. Do people who own them today collect or actual play them?



There were like 10 up on Reverb over the last year. Given that that's like 25% of blackmachines made, probably the best way to characterize the people who own them is not as collector or player, but just dealer. Selling them or waiting to sell them. 

But you know blackmachines have "jumped the shark" when Misha sold his and Nolly sold his more recent one, the Safety Fire guy flipped his most recent one, Francisco and Fred sold theirs. And now Doug's building weird things people don't really want like some BMX-themed one and a headless one with a floyd. I feel like he's just a couple builds away from reintroducing the full-fretboard tribal flame inlay from his early days.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 4, 2018)

narad said:


> and a headless one with a floyd.



lol, what? I saw the BMX build, but haven't heard about this. My kingdom for a link, that sounds interesting.


----------



## narad (Dec 4, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> lol, what? I saw the BMX build, but haven't heard about this. My kingdom for a link, that sounds interesting.



Can see it here -- I forgot my login on this site so I can't direct link:

https://www.metalguitarist.org/foru...floyd.html?s=5d5145115775a9e7efbc716e2a6d7d63


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 4, 2018)

narad said:


> Can see it here -- I forgot my login on this site so I can't direct link:
> 
> https://www.metalguitarist.org/foru...floyd.html?s=5d5145115775a9e7efbc716e2a6d7d63



Cheers, that thing's neat. Not my cup of tea since half of the allure of a B2 is that headstock, but...still neat. Can't believe he did the voyager cut.
I forget that MG is parallel dimension SSO. So many identical names over there


----------



## wannabguitarist (Dec 5, 2018)

I'm more interested in the BMX themed one. Seriously, what the hell 

I can't fault long time owners for selling their BMs at this point. The market is apparently absurd for them. When Misha's originally went for sale I jokingly offered a trade for my S2000. The response was "would need cash on top." On top of a $18-20k car? More power to him if he seriously was able to get that much for the guitar.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 5, 2018)

wannabguitarist said:


> I'm more interested in the BMX themed one. Seriously, what the hell
> 
> I can't fault long time owners for selling their BMs at this point. The market is apparently absurd for them. When Misha's originally went for sale I jokingly offered a trade for my S2000. The response was "would need cash on top." On top of a $18-20k car? More power to him if he seriously was able to get that much for the guitar.



Weren't people offering him close to 6 figures when he made the "april fools" sale post?
The BMX build was supposedly an idea from the buyer iirc. That one was actually pretty normal looking; all you had to do was swap out the blue hardware. Couldn't gel with the maple they used on it though; maple doesn't belong on a Blackmachine.


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## Mathemagician (Dec 5, 2018)

Just catching up on this thread. And fucking LOL @ anyone who purchased a BM for over $5-7k thinking it was going to be some classic Gibson prices one day. 

It’s obviously worth whatever someone is willing to pay sure, but the market for “obscure super Strat with a thin neck” is much smaller than the classic Gibson’s collectors market.


----------



## IbanezDaemon (Dec 5, 2018)

I remember the below meme from the days when the Blackmachine hype was going into overdrive. Very apt:


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## Jeff (Dec 5, 2018)

Black Machines' value depends highly on whether or not you have one to sell. If you do, they're the finest guitars money can buy. If not, they're another nice bolt-on guitar, who's price gets ultra-inflated due to hype.


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## Dust_to_Dust (Dec 5, 2018)

Here's me thinking that Feline made all the B6's.... https://reverb.com/item/16393945-blackmachine-b6-2012-natural-satin

£3500 for that? Jesus, give me a Custom Aristides or Carillion for that. The B6 I played at the Birmingham Guitar show a few years ago was complete garbage.


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## SamSam (Dec 5, 2018)

Not gonna doubt the seller, but I am sure I have previously seen a: "feline built all the B6 models but Doug built mine." story somewhere before. I'm pretty sure it was in a for sale post as well.


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## Humbuck (Dec 5, 2018)

That's guy's info is misleading...Feline builds all the B6's since the start except apparently the prototype B6.


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## Humbuck (Dec 5, 2018)

Dust_to_Dust said:


> The B6 I played at the Birmingham Guitar show a few years ago was complete garbage.



Hype be damned, I've never heard anyone make that claim about any B6.


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## ddtonfire (Dec 5, 2018)

According to http://www.wiredguitarist.com/2016/01/24/blackmachine-guitars-a-guide/, Jonathan at Feline prepped the first 29 B6 bodies and Doug assembled them. After that, Jonathan took over B6's full-scale.


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## Lord Voldemort (Dec 5, 2018)

Blackmachine makes the best guitars in the world. Everything about them is perfect, and once you play one yoully never be able to play a different guitar again without longing for a Blackmachine. 

I mean, I'm assuming anyways, I've never played one.


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 5, 2018)

Doug is really into bikes so that's why he made the BMX one. 

A prototype B6 was made out of indigbo wood. That's the only sole made Doug B6 AFAIK. Everything else had help from feline in some way. To think having someone else make a body and neck would have so much difference on the end result that people added a premium that they didn't.


----------



## MoJoToJo (Dec 5, 2018)

Threadnaught said:


> I have a left handed B6 built by Feline, and I have to say it's one of my favourite guitars that I've played. It's lightweight and resonant, the neck is flat-tish and fast but not ultra thin, the fret work is excellent - beautifully dressed and rounded ends. It sounds snappy and is really pleasurable to play. It also smells amazing. I don't know about the hype, but I can tell you Feline put an amazing amount of work into this build.
> 
> Lefties Rule! Horn guitar
> 
> ...


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 6, 2018)

SamSam said:


> Not gonna doubt the seller, but I am sure I have previously seen a: "feline built all the B6 models but Doug built mine." story somewhere before. I'm pretty sure it was in a for sale post as well.



I'll doubt it. Although I may have missed it, but I didn't see him say Doug built that guitar; rather that he just picked it up from Doug. This falls in line with Doug just putting the pieces together.

Because yeah; it's been stated in no uncertain terms that _every_ B6 was built by Feline, save for 1 prototype.


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## SamSam (Dec 7, 2018)

It says that he was partnering to make subsequent B6s. That infers that feline will make future B6s.

Did early B6s have the hannes bridge? I thought that was a later addition. I may be wrong though, I'm not particular knowledgeable on the subject bar the hype and hysteria the guitars have caused here over the years.


----------



## narad (Dec 7, 2018)

SamSam said:


> It says that he was partnering to make subsequent B6s. That infers that feline will make future B6s.
> 
> Did early B6s have the hannes bridge? I thought that was a later addition. I may be wrong though, I'm not particular knowledgeable on the subject bar the hype and hysteria the guitars have caused here over the years.



My early B6 had just a fender style thing -- neither hannes nor hipshot. Gotoh I think.


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## Humbuck (Dec 7, 2018)

They first had Gotoh and other no name "Gotoh-like" bridges, then Hipshot, then Schaller.


----------



## Flappydoodle (Dec 7, 2018)

Threadnaught said:


> I have a left handed B6 built by Feline, and I have to say it's one of my favourite guitars that I've played. It's lightweight and resonant, the neck is flat-tish and fast but not ultra thin, the fret work is excellent - beautifully dressed and rounded ends. It sounds snappy and is really pleasurable to play. It also smells amazing. I don't know about the hype, but I can tell you Feline put an amazing amount of work into this build.
> 
> 
> 
> 20180226_122009-COLLAGE





ddtonfire said:


> FWIW, I bought a B6 (granted, a Felinemachine) a few months ago and someone asked me if it lived up to the hype. I replied with something like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





khm said:


> Doug wanted to endorse my band many eons ago, and came down to our studio with several bags of BM guitars for the band to try out, they where fantastic guitars and he was an extremely nice chap. We ended up spending most of the night talking motorbikes. Unfortunaly I was playing bass in that particular band, so couldn't afford to invest in a new guitar (even though it was being offered at a ridiculously cheap price as he liked the band) - I still regret to this day not buying one. I didn't even realise there was any hype at the time, as we had only been put in contact through a mutual friend on Myspace (that tells you how long ago it was).
> 
> Jonathon @ feline has been my go to for as long as I can remember (until I moved to The Netherlands a few years back) and he makes fantastic guitars as well, and is a life long friend of Doug, so would love to try out one of his and dougs BM's one day - 2 of my favourite Luthiers.





Bentaycanada said:


> Awesome. Jonathan at Feine is a good guy. He offered to build me one several years back. I had a lefty 7 string RG model of his and it was hands down one of the best guitars I ever owned (out of 60+).
> If I ever had the money, I’d go for one in a heartbeat.



You guys with Feline B6's, and talking positively about Feline, how did you actually get them?

I emailed them about 3x over several months and never heard a single thing. Called them multiple times. No answer.

Is there a secret passphrase or something? For all their good reputation online, they seem extremely unreliable in real life.


----------



## ddtonfire (Dec 7, 2018)

@Flappydoodle I got mine used on Reverb. It is a 2013.


----------



## narad (Dec 7, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> You guys with Feline B6's, and talking positively about Feline, how did you actually get them?
> 
> I emailed them about 3x over several months and never heard a single thing. Called them multiple times. No answer.
> 
> Is there a secret passphrase or something? For all their good reputation online, they seem extremely unreliable in real life.





Flappydoodle said:


> You guys with Feline B6's, and talking positively about Feline, how did you actually get them?
> 
> I emailed them about 3x over several months and never heard a single thing. Called them multiple times. No answer.
> 
> Is there a secret passphrase or something? For all their good reputation online, they seem extremely unreliable in real life.



Last time I saw Jonathan saying he was doing another batch, that was on Facebook. Maybe if you followed Feline Guitars or messaged him there? Though he also ignored my request to make a B6 with an ebony board and ivoroid binding, and do that satin black ash finish everyone knows :-/


----------



## Threadnaught (Dec 8, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> You guys with Feline B6's, and talking positively about Feline, how did you actually get them?
> 
> I emailed them about 3x over several months and never heard a single thing. Called them multiple times. No answer.
> 
> Is there a secret passphrase or something? For all their good reputation online, they seem extremely unreliable in real life.



I emailed them to ask specifically about left handed builds, Jonthan got back to me pretty quickly and said they had a body ready. That was late Nov last year, and I drove down to their workshop in Feb to collect it. 

Communication for me during that time was good, I had to poke them once I think for an update.


----------



## Humbuck (Dec 8, 2018)

Flappydoodle said:


> You guys with Feline B6's, and talking positively about Feline, how did you actually get them?
> 
> I emailed them about 3x over several months and never heard a single thing. Called them multiple times. No answer.
> 
> Is there a secret passphrase or something? For all their good reputation online, they seem extremely unreliable in real life.



I got both of mine though ads on here (sevenstring.org) I think? One was local and I played and bought it in person and the other I traded stuff for and it came from Texas.


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Dec 9, 2018)

narad said:


> Last time I saw Jonathan saying he was doing another batch, that was on Facebook. Maybe if you followed Feline Guitars or messaged him there? Though he also ignored my request to make a B6 with an ebony board and ivoroid binding, and do that satin black ash finish everyone knows :-/



Could probably order a regular feline for half the price with those specs. 

I've always wondered why doug never allowed even minor spec changes on the B6.


----------



## narad (Dec 9, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> Could probably order a regular feline for half the price with those specs.
> 
> I've always wondered why doug never allowed even minor spec changes on the B6.



Maybe, but he'd have had to reply for that to happen. But yea, not in love with Jonathan's original designs so much.


----------



## Ziricote (Dec 12, 2018)

I heard Doug has his personal used B2 made 4 years ago with some really old wood available right now for sale


----------



## dmlinger (Dec 12, 2018)

From the "Ordering" section of the Blackmachine website...first time in 10 years I've seen anything on that page...

"6 places available in March 2019 for the new guitar. One place now for a quilt top B2.

Thanks.

D"


----------



## cip 123 (Dec 12, 2018)

dmlinger said:


> From the "Ordering" section of the Blackmachine website...first time in 10 years I've seen anything on that page...
> 
> "6 places available in March 2019 for the new guitar. One place now for a quilt top B2.
> 
> ...


Wonder how much he charges now?

Like is regular custom shop price 4K give or take or more?

If it is that I'm sure people could get the spot, get the guitar and then flip it for more surely?


----------



## dmlinger (Dec 12, 2018)

Believe it was mentioned earlier in this thread that Doug fetches five figures for custom builds these days. Not sure if that is fact, but imagine it is pretty close.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 13, 2018)

I sent him a message.
If I'm looking at something sane and he'll build for me I'm totally doing it, bank account be damned.

I've been chasing this dragon for too long


----------



## Lorcan Ward (Dec 13, 2018)

I was quoted £4K for my build about 5 years ago which I felt was a lot. I'm guessing it's triple that now for one.

I wouldn't get your hopes up though since these builds rarely happen.


----------



## Seabeast2000 (Dec 13, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I sent him a message.
> If I'm looking at something sane and he'll build for me I'm totally doing it, bank account be damned.
> 
> I've been chasing this dragon for too long



How about a raw KitMachine for $9999.99?
j/k, let us know how it goes.


----------



## narad (Dec 13, 2018)

Just wanted to say for the guys that were just asking, Feline has like 4 B6s ready to go right now apparently. So get in touch with them if you're interested I guess.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 13, 2018)

Lorcan Ward said:


> I was quoted £4K for my build about 5 years ago which I felt was a lot. I'm guessing it's triple that now for one.
> 
> I wouldn't get your hopes up though since these builds rarely happen.



Honestly, I was hoping to see something in the 4~6k range, but we'll see if he even responds. I've got a gut feeling you're right and it'll be some wild number now. I can give it some flex room because the "crossing something off the dream list" budget always goes a further than it should, but that gets to a point pretty quick where I just can't justify that much cash on a guitar "because it's cool". I don't tour, I don't even record 

What with how popular his brand still is and how close that number seems to be to B6 pricing, I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see it at least doubled now.

Something else I'm curious about is the language in the post. He specifies that there's 1 quilted B2 spot available now, but that the 6 build slots will be open for "the new guitar."
I wonder if this could potentially mean these new slots aren't for B2/7/8s, but for something different entirely. Could be interesting.



cip 123 said:


> Wonder how much he charges now?
> 
> Like is regular custom shop price 4K give or take or more?
> 
> If it is that I'm sure people could get the spot, get the guitar and then flip it for more surely?



I've heard this drives him crazy (understandably so). So...this is probably why everyone expects pricing to be nuts this time around.


----------



## Humbuck (Dec 13, 2018)

Anybody care to speculate on when "the new guitar" means?


----------



## Andromalia (Dec 13, 2018)

Not really, since it doesn't matter for anyone except the very few real buyers and guitar flippers. Seeing that thread bumped for 6 months isn't really appealing.


----------



## Velokki (Dec 13, 2018)

narad said:


> Just wanted to say for the guys that were just asking, Feline has like 4 B6s ready to go right now apparently. So get in touch with them if you're interested I guess.



True. I got in touch some days ago and bought one of them! And supposedly it's the best of the four - he offered to play them through and choose which one has the most mojo. He said it's immensely resonant. Coincidentally it also looked the best of the 4, and I would've chosen that anyway! It's got a Pau Ferro board, so a nice aesthetic plus + no CITES requirements. Can't wait to get my hands on it.

Yeah, mystery will dissolve - *I'm getting a Blackmachine*!

This has been a great thread btw, so thanks everyone, and let's keep discussing!

P.S. Doug's new guitars are entirely new models. Apparently headless.


----------



## prlgmnr (Dec 13, 2018)

Velokki said:


> And supposedly it's the best of the four - he offered to play them through and choose which one has the most mojo



Are the remaining ones available for less?


----------



## technomancer (Dec 13, 2018)

prlgmnr said:


> Are the remaining ones available for less?


----------



## Shoeless_jose (Dec 13, 2018)

every time I read the thread title I just think of this.


----------



## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 13, 2018)

Velokki said:


> P.S. Doug's new guitars are entirely new models. Apparently headless.



This is disheartening. Hopefully the B2 he mentioned is still fair game; although I'm sure somewhere there's a bigger fish that will offer him double what I can. 
Still glad to see him building again, but damn, that headstock is what really tied the whole look together for me


----------



## diagrammatiks (Dec 13, 2018)

I’m still not convinced a feline counts.


----------



## narad (Dec 13, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> I’m still not convinced a feline counts.



I like B6s, but as far as "blackmachine hype", there is no hype about B6s. Same price and availability as always, used ones sit for weeks or months if they price close to new, etc.

I mean, you're probably not getting anything particularly special with either Feline/Doug blackmachines, apart from a good guitar. I don't want to downplay the Feline either, as Jonathan's been building for forever, but I don't think either of these builders would come out and use the kind of hyperbole that the guys flipping them use, and which drives threads of this sort.

Anyone familiar with Klons?






You know the marketing circle-jerk is bad when builders have to literally call it ridiculous _on the product itself_


----------



## diagrammatiks (Dec 13, 2018)

narad said:


> I like B6s, but as far as "blackmachine hype", there is no hype about B6s. Same price and availability as always, used ones sit for weeks or months if they price close to new, etc.
> 
> I mean, you're probably not getting anything particularly special with either Feline/Doug blackmachines, apart from a good guitar. I don't want to downplay the Feline either, as Jonathan's been building for forever, but I don't think either of these builders would come out and use the kind of hyperbole that the guys flipping them use, and which drives threads of this sort.
> 
> ...



I mean my truth about blackmachines is that if it’s Doug built I’m in because I was around for that hype and it’s super cool that it’s a guitar that he built. 

But If it’s a feline Blackmacbine I’m out. Nothing against feline. His other guitars are good.


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## thrsher (Dec 14, 2018)

looks like doug is offering a few spots in march 2019, when i inquired back in 2016 for a build that was available, he was asking 9600GBP


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 14, 2018)

thrsher said:


> looks like doug is offering a few spots in march 2019, when i inquired back in 2016 for a build that was available, he was asking 9600GBP



So they will be in excess of £10,000 now. For that kind of coin you can get 3 new high end boutique guitars or at least 4 or 5 used models. Someone will pay it though and I reckon the slots will go quickly enough


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 14, 2018)

The906 said:


> How about a raw KitMachine for $9999.99?
> j/k, let us know how it goes.



Doug wrote me back, and while pricing on the B2 isn't what I would call insane for these guitars by any means, it's definitely more than what I can afford. 
He also confirmed that the run in March is going to be for a new model that he'll be posting on the website soon. To use his words, it will be "a guitar with a predominantly vintage voice to allow for a wide range of genres to be played convincingly," which doesn't _scream _'headless' to me, but stranger things have happened. Either way, I'm just excited to see the guy build again. I love his work.


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## pott (Dec 14, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> ...and while pricing on the B2 isn't what I would call insane for these guitars by any means...



What does that mean?

Waghorn, Carillion, Daemoness etc... can be made easily for GBP3k with some pretty damn solid specs (I have a Waghorn which came way under this value). A B6 is 2.3k (or it was 3 years ago).
Are you implying, and it's fine if you don't want to give details, that his B2 pricing is around these lines? Anything vastly higher would be unexpected.

Guitar making isn't magic; there's little reason why a B2 would be better, or worse, than these guitars: it's just a different axe, by a different builder, with different specs, made out of the same wood and hardware and hence fixed costs.


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## noise in my mind (Dec 14, 2018)

I wonder how much money it is for the pictures of this new Doug guitar?


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## Shoeless_jose (Dec 14, 2018)

noise in my mind said:


> I wonder how much money it is for the pictures of this new Doug guitar?



You wouldnt know the new guitar it goes to a different school


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 14, 2018)

pott said:


> What does that mean?
> 
> Waghorn, Carillion, Daemoness etc... can be made easily for GBP3k with some pretty damn solid specs (I have a Waghorn which came way under this value). A B6 is 2.3k (or it was 3 years ago).
> Are you implying, and it's fine if you don't want to give details, that his B2 pricing is around these lines? Anything vastly higher would be unexpected.
> ...



I'm not going to post the number since if he wanted it public he would have posted it publicly, but considering I said earlier here I was _*hoping*_ for about GBP5k, it's definitely safe to say the number is 'vastly higher,' but I think you may be alone in not expecting that. Most people here seemed to have foreseen this result.

I also think you're conflating value with worth. The _*value*_ of a B2 is marginally different from any high end custom guitar. Like you said, the components are the same. But it's _*worth*_ much, much more, because people are willing to pay those prices for one. Remember, Doug doesn't care about other shops; they aren't his business and have no affect on his market. Doug knows this, and is probably not enthusiastic about the idea of somebody buying one of his guitars and then just flipping it for a substantial profit; and thus he needs to price his labor closer to the market. The result: expensive builds.

That said, all I'm saying is that I don't think the number he gave me was at all unreasonable given current day circumstances. It's just a shame I don't have the money to give him; otherwise I would.


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## pott (Dec 14, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I'm not going to post the number since if he wanted it public he would have posted it publicly, but considering I said earlier here I was _*hoping*_ for about GBP5k, it's definitely safe to say the number is 'vastly higher,' but I think you may be alone in not expecting that. Most people here seemed to have foreseen this result.
> 
> I also think you're conflating value with worth. The _*value*_ of a B2 is marginally different from any high end custom guitar. Like you said, the components are the same. But it's _*worth*_ much, much more, because people are willing to pay those prices for one. Remember, Doug doesn't care about other shops; they aren't his business and have no affect on his market. Doug knows this, and is probably not enthusiastic about the idea of somebody buying one of his guitars and then just flipping it for a substantial profit; and thus he needs to price his labor closer to the market. The result: expensive builds.
> 
> That said, all I'm saying is that I don't think the number he gave me was at all unreasonable given current day circumstances. It's just a shame I don't have the money to give him; otherwise I would.



I think you misunderstand what I said. I'm not conflating anything. I'm only saying the 'extra' amount paid is what the 'hype charge' is over other, similar-quality, high-end metal instruments also made in the UK.
What I or others expect is irrelevant; what's relevant is who is willing to pay what. If the former exceeds the latter, people won't buy and it's their business, likewise the other direction. If you want to pay the extra money, good for you. No one should be judging you for that.

All I was asking is how much that extra charge was, not how much it's worth to you or others


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 14, 2018)

pott said:


> I think you misunderstand what I said. I'm not conflating anything. I'm only saying the 'extra' amount paid is what the 'hype charge' is over other, similar-quality, high-end metal instruments also made in the UK.
> What I or others expect is irrelevant; what's relevant is who is willing to pay what. If the former exceeds the latter, people won't buy and it's their business, likewise the other direction. If you want to pay the extra money, good for you. No one should be judging you for that.
> 
> All I was asking is how much that extra charge was, not how much it's worth to you or others



Ah; yes. It definitely sounds like I did then as we seem to be singing the same tune. 
I read it as if we were about to go down the "Blackmachines aren't worth it Doug is full of it and people who buy them are suckers" rabbit hole we've all been down before and I wanted to nip that in the bud 

Cheers mate.


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## Velokki (Dec 14, 2018)

This is interesting discussion, let me share my 2 cents.

I think that whatever the case, if a guitar sounds good and feels good, it's a winner. Now, I talked to Jonathan from Feline for a quite while just yesterday - over 40 minutes. I asked some very specific questions, and I was impressed by the depth of the answers every time. Now, remember, Doug and Jonathan are best friends for almost 30 years. Both have been and are really passionate about luthiery, and they've shared their knowledge throughout their careers. Now, it's Doug who developed the design of Blackmachines, which of course makes him the guru here. Now, for a long time, they've constantly worked together, and that's why the B6 was taken under Jonathan's wing.

I asked Jonathan, whether Doug's guitars are objectively better than Feline Blackmachines. He said they have some customers with a Doug's B6 (he did make the first 29 B6s) and a Feline's B6. They're very, very similar, like 95%, but the consensus leans towards the newer ones being slightly better. Especially the finish is slightly better on the latter ones made by Feline.

He also told me a story from about 5 years ago, when they met up with Doug, and Doug had his B2 with him, Jonathan had his Feline line. They compared their guitars' set-ups to each other, and they were unbelievably close. They used feeler gauges that were thousandths of an inch to be scientifically accurate, and landed on exactly the same results between the guitars. If they'd commissioned each other to set up their respective guitars, they wouldn't have had to do anything. The important thing here to learn is that they operate to exactly same standards, and he really emphasized this. What their idea of "perfect" is, is 100% aligned. I think this is really important, when comparing the two builders.

Based on everything I've read, I think it's fair to say that Jonathan has even _ever so slightly_ improved on Doug's B6 design. Doug is the visionary, and no doubt a masterful luthier, but Jonathan did improve on the finish on the newer B6s. Also, for example mine comes with a Pau Ferro board, which I think looks better, but according to Jonathan, also sounds a bit snappier. And that's what I want, so I chose that over Rosewood.

This is just what I've been able to gather. When I get my guitar next week, I'll do a review. Hopefully it's worthy of the hype!


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 14, 2018)

Velokki said:


> This is interesting discussion, let me share my 2 cents.
> This is just what I've been able to gather. When I get my guitar next week, I'll do a review. Hopefully it's worthy of the hype!



Great info Velokki. Looking forward to your review and hey...congratz on scoring a BM. I'm gonna be in the market for one at some point...it's an itch I have to scratch..so the more reviews of the newer ones the better!


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## jephjacques (Dec 14, 2018)

I had sex with a B2 and a BRJ and neither guitar was any good in bed


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## Velokki (Dec 14, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> I had sex with a B2 and a BRJ and neither guitar was any good in bed


The catch of the joke is that he really masturbated both times. BRJ never actually arrived and he turned down the B2 when he heard her price!


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 14, 2018)

jephjacques said:


> I had sex with a B2 and a BRJ and neither guitar was any good in bed



I'm surprised the BRJ didn't cancel the date and not give a valid reason. ;-)


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## Humbuck (Dec 14, 2018)

It is my understanding through conversations with Feline that Doug only _made_ the first B6 and that every other one is made by Feline. The first batch of 29 or whatever it was, were _assembled_ by Doug...not made by Doug. The rest were and are built and assembled by Feline. 

A small but important distinction that comes up constantly in listings for used B6's for sale...the myth of the "Doug built" B6's.


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## Velokki (Dec 14, 2018)

Humbuck said:


> It is my understanding through conversations with Feline that Doug only _made_ the first B6 and that every other one is made by Feline. The first batch of 29 or whatever it was, were _assembled_ by Doug...not made by Doug. The rest were and are built and assembled by Feline.
> 
> A small but important distinction that comes up constantly in listings for used B6's for sale...the myth of the "Doug built" B6's.


On the phone, he said word for word "Doug built the first 29 B6s". To clarify, I asked him now. He answered "The bodies and necks were started off by our guy." So it was a co-op build to some extent.

But to be honest, I think Doug's hands get a bit too much mythical quality. If the design and workflow, processes and the perfectionist attitude are all the same... could you ever tell the difference? Like, really?


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 14, 2018)

Velokki said:


> But to be honest, I think Doug's hands get a bit too much mythical quality. If the design and workflow, processes and the perfectionist attitude are all the same... could you ever tell the difference? Like, really?



Agreed! Once you come to a certain price point it all boils down to personal preference. Is a £10k Blackmachine built by Doug any better a guitar than a high end Suhr, Daemoness, Carillion, PRS etc...hell no! At that point it's all the about the prestige of owning one..and if people want to grab one then that's up to them and more power to them. I get where Doug is coming from though..back in the day it must have pissed him off to see guitars he built exchanging hands for like X4 the original cost.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 14, 2018)

IbanezDaemon said:


> Agreed! Once you come to a certain price point it all boils down to personal preference. Is a £10k Blackmachine built by Doug any better a guitar than a high end Suhr, Daemoness, Carillion, PRS etc...hell no! At that point it's all the about the prestige of owning one..and if people want to grab one then that's up to them and more power to them. I get where Doug is coming from though..back in the day it must have pissed him off to see guitars he built exchanging hands for like X4 the original cost.



The worst were the ones built after he "stopped." 
There were more than a couple of guitars he built after 2010 that went to their destination and then almost straight away ended up getting flipped for huge profit. When you consider that he got much more selective with who he built for during this time, and it _*still*_ happened, that must have made him see red. I'd be furious.


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## Ziricote (Dec 14, 2018)

IbanezDaemon said:


> Is a £10k Blackmachine built by Doug any better a guitar than a high end Suhr, Daemoness, Carillion, PRS etc...hell no!



This an assumption or you played all those guitars?


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 14, 2018)

Velokki said:


> This is interesting discussion, let me share my 2 cents.
> 
> I think that whatever the case, if a guitar sounds good and feels good, it's a winner. Now, I talked to Jonathan from Feline for a quite while just yesterday - over 40 minutes. I asked some very specific questions, and I was impressed by the depth of the answers every time. Now, remember, Doug and Jonathan are best friends for almost 30 years. Both have been and are really passionate about luthiery, and they've shared their knowledge throughout their careers. Now, it's Doug who developed the design of Blackmachines, which of course makes him the guru here. Now, for a long time, they've constantly worked together, and that's why the B6 was taken under Jonathan's wing.
> 
> ...



Just not the same thing to me. If I was going to buy one it would have to be built by Doug. 

But it’s your purchase. As long as you are happy that’s all that matters.


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 14, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Just not the same thing to me. If I was going to buy one it would have to be built by Doug.
> 
> But it’s your purchase. As long as you are happy that’s all that matters.



I'll posit something else that doesn't seem to be commonly voiced either- I'd be happy to have a B2 that was built by Feline. Or Mayones, or Skervesen, or Ibanez, or Dirty Mike & the Boys Customs™ as long as it's a legally made B2 and the craftsmanship is top notch. The only thing is that the only other person on Earth licensed to build Doug's design is Jonathan, and he is not allowed to make any alterations to the B6. The B6 is the _*shape*_ I want, but not the style; I want the Ebony/Koa/Maple top, headstock veneer, Ebony fretboard, etc. Currently, the only way to get the style, shape, quality, and legality is from Doug. 

Apart from that and aside from being the mad genius behind the whole brand; Doug's name being attached isn't special to me.


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## narad (Dec 14, 2018)

The new price is a bit high, but seems pretty logical. Any less, and there'd probably be flipping opportunities. But at the same time he's vastly undercutting all the guys trying to flip used guitars now, so that's pretty cool. Doug's price is basically half of what people were trying for on Reverb. And having more Doug-built blackmachines on the market also helps curb demand a bit. It's not the huge good news that would motivate me to order one now, but I'll take any small win!

That said, yea, it's hard to justify 3x the cost of a Carillion or other comparable builder.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 14, 2018)

Ordacleaphobia said:


> I'll posit something else that doesn't seem to be commonly voiced either- I'd be happy to have a B2 that was built by Feline. Or Mayones, or Skervesen, or Ibanez, or Dirty Mike & the Boys Customs™ as long as it's a legally made B2 and the craftsmanship is top notch. The only thing is that the only other person on Earth licensed to build Doug's design is Jonathan, and he is not allowed to make any alterations to the B6. The B6 is the _*shape*_ I want, but not the style; I want the Ebony/Koa/Maple top, headstock veneer, Ebony fretboard, etc. Currently, the only way to get the style, shape, quality, and legality is from Doug.
> 
> Apart from that and aside from being the mad genius behind the whole brand; Doug's name being attached isn't special to me.



Legally Doug has no protections on any of that. 

I just don’t get the point if it’s not built by him. 

Eh.


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 15, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> This an assumption or you played all those guitars?



Played and owned all except the Carillion.


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## Maximal (Dec 15, 2018)

How much is a new B6 these days? I always liked this model quite a bit but I wouldn't pay 5000€ for such a relatively simple guitar. If they were reasonably close to 2k I might be tempted..


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## Velokki (Dec 15, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> I just don’t get the point if it’s not built by him.
> 
> Eh.



Well, to each their own!
I'm really, really fond of good sound, tuning stability, resonance and performance. Let me tell you a story!

I got a Warmoth parts-caster, which is really, really good. None of the Fender counterparts come close. Handwound pickups, roasted maple neck, stainless steel frets etc:





It cost 770€. The builder is really skilled, having put together over 1300 guitars from parts.
My GAS for a Tele came quite suddenly, and I tried out some Fenders and one Tokai. Then I saw this one online, went and tried it, no question it was the best Tele I've ever played. I'm still constantly amazed by it. The parts and craftsmanship totally make it better in pretty much every regard, when compared to many other teles. I couldn't give a shit whether it cost 770€ or 1500€, because it's exactly what I'd look in a Telecaster. It resonates like I'd be holding a vibrator in my hands! Now, you may see it has a Fender logo on its headstock. The guy that this guitar was originally built for, is a Fender fanboy. To him, the decal on the headstock was important. To me, it's totally meaningless what logo is on the headstock, but I understand the brand appeal that some people appreciate.

I've also owned and played guitars that have been sub-par in many measurable areas. Many of them have been guitars of prestiged brands. One specifically was a top-tier, 3000+€ instrument by a prestiged brand... which failed on almost all areas that I deem important in a guitar. Shoddy QC was clearly present, and the shop owner eventually sent it back to the manufacturer.

I understand that as humans, we rely on senses and feelings. The feelings that a logo on a headstock gives us, or the mental image of a guitar being built by a specific builder, are very important, in how we become attached to instruments. That's how brand loyalty works! But they really don't have anything to do with how an instrument scientifically performs.

Now, when talking about Blackmachines, we obviously have a very compelling design that has to be executed 100% right in order to live up to the sick expectations people set for them. Scientifically, there are certain, exact steps that need to be taken in order to make a guitar of that level. If we source the right wood, work on it exactly the way Doug would do, and do all the necessary steps, we have a worthy Blackmachine.

The fact is, whether Doug's cutaneous residue or microscopic amounts of his sweat lie under the finish or not, it doesn't make any f'in difference. It's all about how the different parts of the guitar connect to each other. It's about the unrelenting precision he takes with each and every guitar he builds. Jonathan stated that Doug really does kill himself over every guitar he does, which means he won't settle for 99% perfect. He's a real deal perfectionist.

Now, still, how can it be that some people haven't been impressed by his guitars? If you'd grade all his guitars on a scale from 0-10, some wouldn't probably be a ten. He must have better builds and worse ones, he just has a unique design with a great track record of putting out an instrument worthy of a 10!

If another builder uses the same processes and same level of perfection, to execute _exactly the same design _(with the logos, backplate and all!) _under exclusive license to Doug_, I think you'd fail a blind test! 

EDIT: A new B6 costs 2700£.


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## narad (Dec 15, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Now, when talking about Blackmachines, we obviously have a very compelling design that has to be executed 100% right in order to live up to the sick expectations people set for them. Scientifically, there are certain, exact steps that need to be taken in order to make a guitar of that level. If we source the right wood, work on it exactly the way Doug would do, and do all the necessary steps, we have a worthy Blackmachine.



Well, nothing scientific about it. If you want a blackmachine, only Doug has the exact Doug materials and Doug process. The result doesn't yield "a guitar of that level". They yield "a guitar of that type". If your idea of the perfect guitar is exactly the same as Doug's, it's going to work out well for you. 

But I'd ask, what other things in life do you treat that way, blindly taking one guy's view as your own, without trying stuff out? I don't go into starbucks and when they ask my order I say, well, make your what you think is the best coffee and I'm just going to assume that's mine too. Oh? You like hazlenut latte AND Misha used to drink that too? Well, sign me up!


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 15, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Well, to each their own!
> I'm really, really fond of good sound, tuning stability, resonance and performance. Let me tell you a story!
> 
> I got a Warmoth parts-caster, which is really, really good. None of the Fender counterparts come close. Handwound pickups, roasted maple neck, stainless steel frets etc:
> ...



I mean it makes a difference because he invented the guitar so if you are getting that guitar outsourced from someone else why even bother with the bmachine. Imo.

Like I’d only want a blackmachine because it was built by Doug. I could care less about how good the guitar actually is. This thread is testament that it will probably be good. But the mystique and hype is with Doug.

Imo. But like I said as long as you are happy.

And come on. You can’t effin license something you don’t have a patent or a trademark for. At most that only applies to the brand and logo.



narad said:


> Well, nothing scientific about it. If you want a blackmachine, only Doug has the exact Doug materials and Doug process. The result doesn't yield "a guitar of that level". They yield "a guitar of that type". If your idea of the perfect guitar is exactly the same as Doug's, it's going to work out well for you.
> 
> But I'd ask, what other things in life do you treat that way, blindly taking one guy's view as your own, without trying stuff out? I don't go into starbucks and when they ask my order I say, well, make your what you think is the best coffee and I'm just going to assume that's mine too. Oh? You like hazlenut latte AND Misha used to drink that too? Well, sign me up!



Whenever I get a tattoo I’m just like whatever you think is best good sir/madame


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## Velokki (Dec 15, 2018)

narad said:


> Well, nothing scientific about it. If you want a blackmachine, only Doug has the exact Doug materials and Doug process. The result doesn't yield "a guitar of that level". They yield "a guitar of that type". If your idea of the perfect guitar is exactly the same as Doug's, it's going to work out well for you.



Umm... you just repeated exactly what I said 
I said "If we source the right wood, work on it exactly the way Doug would do, and do all the necessary steps, we have a worthy Blackmachine."
You said "exact Doug materials and Doug process"

So we agree 100%?

I'm just saying, if the same design, woods and processes are used up to the same level of QC, the instrument yielded is identical.

There is absolutely 100% science on it. Take two identical pieces of a material and hit it with a hammer in exactly the same spot with exactly the same velocity - you will find the materials behave exactly similarly. That's science. *Put people in to the equation, and you'll have variances.* Doug is revered as a builder who executes each step of the guitar-making process with painstaking accuracy. If however, Doug could be cloned, Doug Two could do those exact steps and enjoy the same results. Now Jonathan, based on many customers' accounts, should be right up there in the alley with the processes and QC. But of course, until you've tried many similar instruments of the two luthiers and A/B:d them, one can not make definite conclusions or assumptions!



narad said:


> But I'd ask, what other things in life do you treat that way, blindly taking one guy's view as your own, without trying stuff out? I don't go into starbucks and when they ask my order I say, well, make your what you think is the best coffee and I'm just going to assume that's mine too. Oh? You like hazlenut latte AND Misha used to drink that too? Well, sign me up!



Thanks, nicely said.
I never take anything like that - if you read my messages in this thread, I'm very neutral and analytical. I haven't claimed any things that are up to interpretation as facts, I've only resonated out my discussion with Jonathan, how he sees things, and some science behind guitar-making. Jonathan is a very interesting figure when it comes to Blackmachines, which is why I'd reckon many would be interested in his views. He's Doug's best friend, after all!

Then I said _"If another builder uses the same processes and same level of perfection, to execute exactly the same design (with the logos, backplate and all!) under exclusive license to Doug, I think you'd fail a blind test!"._
Do you see the word "if"? It leaves a total question mark on whether anyone can actually do the process exactly as Doug. But if they (whoever!) manage to do it, you would fail a blind test. You know, scientifically, it would be identical to a guitar built by Doug. Truth is, I have no idea whether for ex. Jonathan can do what Doug does - I won't know until I have my B6! And even then I'd have to test it against a guitar made by Doug! And even that could be unfair, since I could be comparing a 10/10 Feline towards a 8/10 Doug guitar, or vice versa.

Truth be told, I'm not too interested in that. What I'm super fond of is the Blackmachine design, and the fact that B6s have a great reputation overall. Which makes me want one. That's why I'm excited to get mine next week, and will post a review then! Hope it lives up to the hype.


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## Ziricote (Dec 15, 2018)

What I gather from this the argument is not Feline Vs Doug, its B6 Vs B2. I would rather have B2 so this also means I would rather have Doug built. So question is, can a person get B6 and make a review of Doug made guitars? Maybe we should use the distinguish Blackmachine from Blackmachine (feline). How can we do this by only stating Blackmachine? It is naming the model which separates the two for people who know. So lets use B6 or B2 or B7 or whatever when we say that we got to try out a Blackmachine, or owned one, or we are getting one, or we want one. Some people say they owned one, then I want to know how their B2 was, but then I find out its a B6 and now they want to use this as judging someone elses B2 koa top whatever years old ancient Mahogany body and rosewoods necks or cocobolo fingerboards. I read somewhere that it is Dougs neck shapes or compound radius necks that are totally different from B6 model. B6 model is made to be production also is not chambered. for record I will pull trigger soon and buy my own B6. I wonder if he will build with single coil in middle for me


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## StevenC (Dec 15, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> What I gather from this the argument is not Feline Vs Doug, its B6 Vs B2. I would rather have B2 so this also means I would rather have Doug built. So question is, can a person get B6 and make a review of Doug made guitars? Maybe we should use the distinguish Blackmachine from Blackmachine (feline). How can we do this by only stating Blackmachine? It is naming the model which separates the two for people who know. So lets use B6 or B2 or B7 or whatever when we say that we got to try out a Blackmachine, or owned one, or we are getting one, or we want one. Some people say they owned one, then I want to know how their B2 was, but then I find out its a B6 and now they want to use this as judging someone elses B2 koa top whatever years old ancient Mahogany body and rosewoods necks or cocobolo fingerboards. I read somewhere that it is Dougs neck shapes or compound radius necks that are totally different from B6 model. B6 model is made to be production also is not chambered. for record I will pull trigger soon and buy my own B6. I wonder if he will build with single coil in middle for me


I've played 4 Blackmachines. I want a Blackmachine.


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## Velokki (Dec 15, 2018)

StevenC said:


> I've played 4 Blackmachines. I want a Blackmachine.



Nice! Which machines did you black?


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## A-Branger (Dec 15, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> I mean it makes a difference because he invented the guitar so if you are getting that guitar outsourced from someone else why even bother with the bmachine. Imo.



Leo Fender invented the bass. And I would take a Sadowsky bass any time of the day over a Fender. jsut to name one brand, there are heaps of fender shaped basses brands out there, all miles better than Fender.

Heck do the same with a strat. Most ppl in this forum would grab a Shur over a Fender any time of the day

Just because you came up with the concept, doesnt mean someone else can make it the same or better as you. If Feline got the licence/permit/blessing/whatever it means he prob got a copy of the master templates too, so in every aspect the guitar would be 100% the same. 

This guitar is designed to be "easy" to build. Meaning with a router template and you are done. No cnc required, or handmade carved tops or what not. It comes down to neck pockets and bridge intonation points. And QC and finish of course. IF Feline is skilled enough, then whats the problem.... Go to Doug's house and let him touch the guitar if you want the mojo.


At the end of the day the guitar wont be better/worse, its all about the "name" and if the name is important, then more power to you and go and spend all the $ you need to get it and be happy.


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## narad (Dec 15, 2018)

Velokki said:


> There is absolutely 100% science on it. Take two identical pieces of a material and hit it with a hammer in exactly the same spot with exactly the same velocity - you will find the materials behave exactly similarly. That's science.



Well, I mean, that's not science. Identical materials acting under identical forces (and putting aside any quantum phenomena), act identically -- that's a tautology.

But apart from that, I don't think we're saying opposing things, but because you refer to "guitars of this level", I just want to point out that guitars "of this level" is a statement about quality, of which a nearly endless list of builders, many in the $3k range, are "of this level". Unless anyone can point to something on a blackmachine and say, hey, this is higher precision than X other guitar, then it's silly to me to talk about level/quality. By all information we have seen in the FF8 teardown that was once up, there are some Doug-built blackmachines out there who would be outclassed in terms of build quality by an Ibanez Prestige.

Now guitars "of this type" -- you'd have to play one to find out -- but I find these threads silly. Would someone start a thread about "Blue, Green, has anyone seen both and can tell me which is better?" "Whiskey, wine, has anyone tried both and tell me which tastes better?" Doug makes what Doug thinks is the best guitar he can make, but builders are striving for different things, just as much as amp builders voice amps differently, or players choose different instruments. No one on an internet, and especially no one trying to sell said instruments for $15-20k is going to be a good judge of that for you.

Though I'm sure you'll love the B6 -- they're totally solid guitars. Funny that forum wisdom would even value Doug-built over Feline-built, since Jonathan's probably built 10x more guitars?


----------



## A-Branger (Dec 15, 2018)

I would see it this way.

PRS PS are the best you can buy from them... yet Paul doesnt build the guitar, only signs it. Does it make it worse that Paul doesnt do the work?, nope, but its good enough for him to put his name on it.

If Paul himself builds a guitar, would it be better?.... maybe?, maybe no?..... but rest assure people would pay for it, and they would happily pay twice as much for it, just to say "Paul built mine" even if the quality is the same or less than a normal PS, and hey thats fine. Whatever makes you happy. Same feeling a fanboi would get when he buys the same guitar his favourite artist plays, or even more if he signs it...... It just make it more special in our minds so we value the guitar more, which in return would make the instrument a "better" one in our eyes. 

some people would be stocked to have a "Blackmachine" regardless of who made it. Some people just want to be able to say "Doug built mine"


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## StevenC (Dec 15, 2018)

narad said:


> Well, I mean, that's not science. Identical materials acting under identical forces (and putting aside any quantum phenomena), act identically -- that's a tautology.
> 
> But apart from that, I don't think we're saying opposing things, but because you refer to "guitars of this level", I just want to point out that guitars "of this level" is a statement about quality, of which a nearly endless list of builders, many in the $3k range, are "of this level". Unless anyone can point to something on a blackmachine and say, hey, this is higher precision than X other guitar, then it's silly to me to talk about level/quality. By all information we have seen in the FF8 teardown that was once up, there are some Doug-built blackmachines out there who would be outclassed in terms of build quality by an Ibanez Prestige.
> 
> ...



Blue, wine



A-Branger said:


> I would see it this way.
> 
> PRS PS are the best you can buy from them... yet Paul doesnt build the guitar, only signs it. Does it make it worse that Paul doesnt do the work?, nope, but its good enough for him to put his name on it.
> 
> ...



Benedetto is probably the right example to use here, as far as guitar company that makes super expensive guitars and then they're way more expensive when Mr Benedetto makes it himself.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 15, 2018)

A-Branger said:


> I would see it this way.
> 
> PRS PS are the best you can buy from them... yet Paul doesnt build the guitar, only signs it. Does it make it worse that Paul doesnt do the work?, nope, but its good enough for him to put his name on it.
> 
> ...



Let me try to explain it a little better. 

We have to to separate the guitar from the collectibility aspect. 

The b6 is reasonably priced. It’s a good guitar. Is it better then every other guitar in its price range? That’s debatable. 

So the guitar aspect of it doesn’t interest me that much. For the same price I’m pretty sure I can get a guitar just as good from a builder that’s more suited to my current interests. 

Now, the collectibility aspect of the guitar is cool. There’s a history behind it, there’s mojo whatever. But that aspect is tied to Doug. If I had extra money laying around I’d definitely pick one up. But I wouldn’t play it. The guitar itself doesn’t really matter in that scenario. 

I don’t really disagree with people buying b6’s. If you like that style of guitar it’s great. But I think it’s a lie to say you aren’t doing it because the collectibility aspect isn’t helping with the marketing. 

I think the prs private stock analogy isn’t that great. Past the first few years Paul never really built that many guitars. The brand value of the guitar is in the brand itself. 

Blackmachine to me is a little different since it’s a single builder boutique which is a bit different in terms of what you are actually buying. 

This is completely separate from whether the guitar is good or not. 

All that being said I do admit that I have almost the completely opposite view when it comes to something like a dumble. I love almost every iteration of the dumble circuit and I couldn’t care less about the dumble hype.


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## Steinmetzify (Dec 15, 2018)

This is an interesting thing to me. 

I only found out about BMs from being on this forum... the last 5 years or so......that being said, I think they're sick...the shape, the relative thickness compared to production guitars, the headstock, etc...but I know I'd hate it.

Over the last few years the preferred nut width for me is 1.625", or 1 5/8", which translates to 41mm, plus change...so I could order a B6 (at 43mm), try it out, marvel at what it's doing etc.....and eventually I know for a fact I'd move it on because my MIJ EVH fits me better.

I'm really sort of disappointed in this. Fuck and stuff


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## A-Branger (Dec 15, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Now, the collectibility aspect of the guitar is cool. There’s a history behind it, there’s mojo whatever. But that aspect is tied to Doug. If I had extra money laying around I’d definitely pick one up. But I wouldn’t play it. The guitar itself doesn’t really matter in that scenario.



exactly my point.... no idea when Paul stopped having a hand on PRS builds, I jsut trow that example but you got the idea of it...... But yeah, just because Doug made it, it doesnt mean they are better than Feline, or that Feline's guitar are firewood compared to Doug or whatever.... it jsut means that people want to say "Doug built mine"..... from a personal POV, or from a collectors perspective, or from "I believe in mojo" and if they are happy to pay that premium, then cool for them.

but just because "Feline did it" it doesn mean they are crap or that "its not a real Blackmachine derp"..... would they be better? donno, you would have to get the two in front of you to compare them


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## Velokki (Dec 16, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Now, the collectibility aspect of the guitar is cool. There’s a history behind it, there’s mojo whatever. But that aspect is tied to Doug. If I had extra money laying around I’d definitely pick one up. But I wouldn’t play it. The guitar itself doesn’t really matter in that scenario.
> 
> I don’t really disagree with people buying b6’s. If you like that style of guitar it’s great. But I think it’s a lie to say you aren’t doing it because the collectibility aspect isn’t helping with the marketing.



Umm... what? That's a really weird point. I mean, I'm buying one purely for the playing aspect of it. The only reason I'm interested enough to dish 3K for it, is because these instruments have great reputation as being very inspiring to play. As a songwriter, I want great tools that inspire me to play.

It does help that there's a brand behind it - I mean, if it was made by a one-man shop no one's heard about, it would be impossible to sell forward at a reasonable price, if I wanted to move it. If you mean this, then ok. But I don't really get it, if you wouldn't even play the guitar at alll!


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## narad (Dec 16, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Umm... what? That's a really weird point. I mean, I'm buying one purely for the playing aspect of it. The only reason I'm interested enough to dish 3K for it, is because these instruments have great reputation as being very inspiring to play. As a songwriter, I want great tools that inspire me to play.



But to be honest, I'm not sure B6s have that reputation. I'm not sure B2s really have that reputation either. Who has said that?


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## Velokki (Dec 16, 2018)

narad said:


> But to be honest, I'm not sure B6s have that reputation. I'm not sure B2s really have that reputation either. Who has said that?



I've read maybe a hundred posts, many even in this thread, that claim them to play extremely well, and _many claim them be inspiring instruments_. Go on, read 'em!

And I'm especially compelled by the design of these instruments. Enough to wanna buy one


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## narad (Dec 16, 2018)

Velokki said:


> I've read maybe a hundred posts, many even in this thread, that claim them to play extremely well, and _many claim them be inspiring instruments_. Go on, read 'em!



Literally one guy in this thread. Whether or not it's inspiring to you is in your head, not the guitar. I mean, I've owned one. It's good. But it was the 4th best guitar of the 5 guitars I owned at the time, for my personal preferences, so it went. A friend of mine thought it was the 2nd best, but you know, personal preferences.


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## Lemonbaby (Dec 16, 2018)

Ziricote said:


> This an assumption or you played all those guitars?


Other way around: would you claim that Doug has skills/know-how/whatever all other guitar manufacturers/luthiers don't? While I can accept fanboydom to a certain extent, this would be a ridiculous claim to make.


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## wedge_destroyer (Dec 16, 2018)

StevenC said:


> Blue, wine



No. 
Green, Whiskey.


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## wedge_destroyer (Dec 16, 2018)

Overall thoughts on BM, no guitar unless from the hand of Midas is worth that much (same for vintage); from the hands creator of the type or not no single makers name should be worth that; unless it's a Stradivarius and he's been dead for a couple centuries.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 16, 2018)

Some one posted this b2 in Facebook. 




I totally get why ppl mad at skervesen now. I never really saw it before with the plain top bm’s


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## narad (Dec 16, 2018)

That one's pretty awesome! But man, that stain is deep... that's like an Ibanez Premium degree of 2D quilt.


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## Humbuck (Dec 17, 2018)

Another Leah!


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## Velokki (Dec 17, 2018)

Yeah, it's Leah, aight!

Unbelievably tasty guitars. The headless with the trem was also supremely awesome.

How in the world she affords those is beyond me


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## noise in my mind (Dec 17, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Yeah, it's Leah, aight!
> 
> Unbelievably tasty guitars. The headless with the trem was also supremely awesome.
> 
> How in the world she affords those is beyond me



Most likely sells drugs. (joking of coarse)


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## Velokki (Dec 17, 2018)

noise in my mind said:


> Most likely sells drugs. (joking of coarse)


Yeah, I told her that she must be a drug salesman or a contract killer, probably both.


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## Droptune666 (Dec 17, 2018)

Velokki said:


> Yeah, I told her that she must be a drug salesman or a contract killer, probably both.



Sugar daddy I’d say or wealthy family.


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## Xaios (Dec 18, 2018)

narad said:


> That one's pretty awesome! But man, that stain is deep... that's like an Ibanez Premium degree of 2D quilt.


Agreed. To me it looks like of Agile's "tribal" quilt stain jobs. Not a look I jive with _at all_, as it sucks all the dimension out of the figuring.


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## Randy (Dec 18, 2018)

Droptune666 said:


> Sugar daddy I’d say or wealthy family.



I don't know what her personal relationship is with Doug but obviously being in a band with Pin, and those guys being very close with Doug and early adopters of the Blackmachine, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's an endorsee and basically getting "friends and family" prices on the stuff. More power to both of them.


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## narad (Dec 18, 2018)

Droptune666 said:


> Sugar daddy I’d say or wealthy family.



Kind of dickish suggestions. You know we're not talking about some random youtuber guitar player but someone from the same circle of players that put blackmachine on the map?


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 18, 2018)

Or Study hard + work hard = money to buy things you want.

Check Leah's FB post about where it came from, everything explained there. Lovely idea behind it. 

I don't particularly dig the stain since it looks more like a skervesen now. At this stage he's probably perfected the sound of these guitars.


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## Droptune666 (Dec 18, 2018)

narad said:


> Kind of dickish suggestions. You know we're not talking about some random youtuber guitar player but someone from the same circle of players that put blackmachine on the map?



I was being sarcastic and by no means do I actually think that. She’s a phemoninal player and has excellent taste in gear.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 18, 2018)

4-5 10k guitars is a reasonable amount. There are people in the prs group with 4-5 times that many 13-15k private stocks.


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## Miek (Dec 18, 2018)

Randy said:


> I don't know what her personal relationship is with Doug but obviously being in a band with Pin, and those guys being very close with Doug and early adopters of the Blackmachine, I wouldn't be at all surprised if she's an endorsee and basically getting "friends and family" prices on the stuff. More power to both of them.



that's not a bad guess and honestly, I think thats what Doug blackmwchine enjoys most! building guitars for close friends and such, and I don't blame him at this point.


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## xwmucradiox (Dec 19, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> 4-5 10k guitars is a reasonable amount. There are people in the prs group with 4-5 times that many 13-15k private stocks.



"Reasonable" is a really tough term to define there. These are just toys for rich people and the only barrier to entry is being rich enough that the money doesn't really matter to you.


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## wannabguitarist (Dec 19, 2018)

Yeah, I'm struggling to think of a world where having $40-50k in guitars is reasonable. More power to you if you can afford it, but that's far from normal


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## thrsher (Dec 19, 2018)

you have to consider the amount of time invested in that collection of guitars. i am almost fully tattooed by some of the best artist in the world, i probably have 40k invested into that over the course of 10 years. if i averaged my income of the past 10 years, probably wouldn't be more 40-50k per year. if you manage your money correctly, its obtainable.


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## xwmucradiox (Dec 19, 2018)

thrsher said:


> you have to consider the amount of time invested in that collection of guitars. i am almost fully tattooed by some of the best artist in the world, i probably have 40k invested into that over the course of 10 years. if i averaged my income of the past 10 years, probably wouldn't be more 40-50k per year. if you manage your money correctly, its obtainable.



That logic doesn't translate. If you acquired 40 $1000 tattoos in a decade that doesn't automatically mean you could pay for a single $10,000 tattoo at any one point in those 10 years. 

Im certain it is possible for a regular person to acquire the amount of money it would take to buy a Blackmachine over the course of years of saving but to just handwave it as managing your money correctly means you can buy literally anything because a different guy spent a ton of money on different stuff is a little far-fetched.


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## thrsher (Dec 19, 2018)

i would finance just as i would any other big purchase i chose to make in a year. if i wanted to purchase a 10k guitar right now, i absolutely could as many others probably do because i can properly manage my finances. the point i was trying to make is i could have easily invested my money into a high end guitar collection with an average mans salary.


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## xwmucradiox (Dec 19, 2018)

Eh if you're putting $10,000 guitars on credit cards because you want to finance them that's a REALLY bad way of managing your finances.


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## thrsher (Dec 19, 2018)

lets add more detail, i have enough cash to paid for a guitar in full if i wanted to do, but im not goin to. i would probably finance a half of it, interest free(balance transfer) instead of just blowing away it all up front. id rather hedge myself instead of losing all that liquid upfront


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 19, 2018)

thrsher said:


> you have to consider the amount of time invested in that collection of guitars. i am almost fully tattooed by some of the best artist in the world, i probably have 40k invested into that over the course of 10 years. if i averaged my income of the past 10 years, probably wouldn't be more 40-50k per year. if you manage your money correctly, its obtainable.



Would love to see pics of those!


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## thrsher (Dec 19, 2018)

IbanezDaemon said:


> Would love to see pics of those!



https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.7704991650&type=1&l=aa51283dc1

ive been working on my back piece for the past year, taking forever but its going to be epic when its done.


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## IbanezDaemon (Dec 19, 2018)

thrsher said:


> https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.7704991650&type=1&l=aa51283dc1
> 
> ive been working on my back piece for the past year, taking forever but its going to be epic when its done.



Man!!! Insane! Those are epic!! I went through each and every pic....might have given me an idea or two for a future custom shop build as well! Cheers!! (Sorry for going off topic mods).


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## Ziricote (Dec 19, 2018)

diagrammatiks said:


> Some one posted this b2 in Facebook.
> 
> View attachment 65759
> 
> ...



Is there any other pics of this Blackmachine B2? I need to see more this incredible top its only one pieces!!!


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## Lorcan Ward (Dec 19, 2018)

If you are on steady income getting a small collection of hi-end guitars is achievable. I'm still using the money I invested in guitars years ago. I sold those guitars for 1/5 or a 1/4 off and put that money to a better guitar. Slowly working up every year only losing a small amount but adding more savings every time. I'm constantly recycling money from years ago. 

On the other hand I've spent more money on cars the last 10 years than I have on guitars and I don't even like cars. Most of that money is gone, after a few years my car is a fraction of what I originally paid and all that insurance/tax/Nct etc is just flushed down the toilet once the annual renewal comes. This is perfectly normal to everyone I know yet most can't comprehend buying a guitar I'll have for the rest of my life.



Ziricote said:


> Is there any other pics of this Blackmachine B2? I need to see more this incredible top its only one pieces!!!



This looks to be a new one piece top, its not from the other billet.



























One of the first Blackmachine adopters holding what might be one of the last B2s ever made.


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## diagrammatiks (Dec 19, 2018)

xwmucradiox said:


> "Reasonable" is a really tough term to define there. These are just toys for rich people and the only barrier to entry is being rich enough that the money doesn't really matter to you.



Eh. We aren’t talking like high schoolers who have to do chores for money. We’re talking full grown adults who have decided that this is what I’m spending money on. And I’m ok enough that I can play music as a hobby and post about it all day on Facebook.


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## narad (Dec 19, 2018)

In this thread complaining: a lot of people would fail the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_marshmallow_experiment


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## MikeNeal (Dec 19, 2018)

blackmachines are always guilty of my biggest guitar pet-peeve. When the guitar top is thicker then the binding and the little bit of the top shows below it. Drives me crazy and looks like poor planning and laziness. I guess people like to show off how thick their top is and how sweet it makes their tonezzzz


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## Andromalia (Dec 19, 2018)

Knowing how to save is the way to get nice things when you aren't rich. I earn the median salary in France and could afford an axe III when it was released, because I'm putting 200€ away every months to a savings account to buy nice things when the occasion arises. From 2007 to 2015 I could buy one solid guitar a year without issues. (I quit buying them because I just have way too many even after reselling some) If it was my thing I could have saved up and bought a BM instead. Meanwhile some of my colleagues in the same salary ballpark are always out of money 20 days into the month.


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## A-Branger (Dec 20, 2018)

MikeNeal said:


> blackmachines are always guilty of my biggest guitar pet-peeve. When the guitar top is thicker then the binding and the little bit of the top shows below it. Drives me crazy and looks like poor planning and laziness. I guess people like to show off how thick their top is and how sweet it makes their tonezzzz



was about to say the same. Beautiful guitar dont get me wrong... (except for the clear pickups, cant gell with those  ) but yeah my OCD is driving me crazy with the top showing under the binding. Also by the lack of binding on the end of the fretboard next to the pickup

beautiful neck tho. Love that fretboard and headstock to match. Always love headstocks that match fretboards. And to match I also mean the un-finish part of it too. I dont like when brands decide to put a clear coat on the headstock, it ruins the flow of it. Music Man does this all the time with the JP models with the roasted flame maple necks. And mostly with the STVincent with the whole neck in rosewood natural except for JUST the headstock.... *facepalm*


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## Drew (Dec 20, 2018)

xwmucradiox said:


> "Reasonable" is a really tough term to define there. These are just toys for rich people and the only barrier to entry is being rich enough that the money doesn't really matter to you.


Eh, I don't own a Blackmachine or anything (top on the one in this thread is unreal, incidentally, but for the most part the specs just aren't what I'd want in a guitar), but I own a couple Suhrs, a couple US Strats, a PRS, and a few nice Ibanez guitars, as well as a Mark V, a Roadster, and some _really_ nice recording gear. I kinda don't want to total up how much it cost all in, but the $40-50k range probably isn't TOO far north of where I am.  

I'm not exactly hurting, but I'd hardly say I'm rich. I'm just very selective about what I DO spend money on. I own my condo (I have a mortgage), I spend money on cycling, I spend money on cooking equiptment, I spend money on booze, and I spend money on guitars and recording gear. That's really about it. I don't really dress very flashily (it's been probably 5 years since I bought a new suit, which thank god I only have to work in occasionally), I drive a '05 Toyota Camry that I paid off maybe five years ago, I don't go out that much and do most of my own cooking, my vacations are definitely more the "getting off the grid" type centered on hiking or cycling rather than fancy resorts, I don't have a TV or cable or even Netflix or anything, idunno... what else to people spend money on? I save pretty aggressively too, I guess that's another use of cash. 

It's just, since guitar gear is one of the few things I do spend money on, over the 20 years I've been playing, I've gradually built up a pretty solid collection of instruments. That's not because money doesn't matter to me, but rather that because it DOES matter to me, I'm only spending it on things I truly care about (and, have VERY long useful lives - most of the money invested in recording gear is in mics and preamps which I fully expect to still be using 20 years from today).


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 20, 2018)

Lorcan and Drew pretty much locked this section of the discussion up in my opinion.
I look at most of my gear the same way; almost like a secondary bank account...that just has negative interest and is not very liquid at all 

We're very lucky with our hobby in the way that most of our purchases retain most of their value. I just had to buy a new phone and I'm still pissed off about it because that $1,000 investment is gone; it may as well have disappeared. But I can spend $1000 on a new guitar and lose little sleep over it because I know that even if I hate it, I'll have little trouble getting $800 of that money back. You get all the satisfaction of throwing large amounts of money around and still get the benefit of being able to pull that money back out. It's why gear whores are so common; it's really easy to move up incrementally. I bought a $200 Ibanez Gio way back. Sold for $150, bought a $300 Agile. Sold for $300, bought a $450 PRS SE. Sold for $400, bought a $600 Iron Label. Sold for $600, bought an $800 Prestige. The cycle just keeps going until eventually one day I finally have my goddamn B2 

Of course, there's always exceptions, this approach only works if you care for your gear, and the up front cost still exists.
But it's really nice that whenever I feel broke, I can kick my feet up in my studio and start tallying up the amount of money I could get from selling my gear off.


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## spudmunkey (Dec 20, 2018)

I have friends who will spend thousands per year on alcohol at bars, without batting an eye. And yet these same friends flipped their shit when I spent $4k on a guitar after not buying one for 6 years.

You don't have to be rich to buy a couple of nice things if you don't waste money on insignificant impulse buys. No, I'm not knocking on anyone who legitimately doesn't make much money...but we all see people all the time who have a Galaxy S8 phone with an unlimited data plan, and buy lunch at work almost every day...and complain that they are so broke. You don't get to complain about being broke when you drive a leased Mercedes E class. Where's your 2007 Corola? When I was saving for my last guitar my lunches were less than $1 per day for a long while. If they spend $8 per day (and that's conservative) I'd have $$1750 saved over a year. Yeah, it sucks eating rice and veggies every day, or just a banana and peanut butter, but it's amazing how quickly incidental purchases can add up.


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## SDMFVan (Dec 20, 2018)

It's officially a Blackmachine thread when the OP goes from asking people's opinions since he's never been able to play one to explaining to everyone why they're so special...still never having played one.


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## Lord Voldemort (Dec 20, 2018)

The other day, I absolutely destroyed a thread that was about this same subject, and I vow to not do so again. If I do, though, can we start calling me Threadslayer (Jamie Lannister reference)? 

My only real problem with things like Blackmachine is the concept of chasing your magic, unicorn item and having that drive replace your drive for creating, and I think that this happens a lot. It's really none of my business if you want to spend 1/4th of my yearly salary on a guitar, but the combination of a $9,000 instrument being really no better for creating music than a $900 instrument combined with this needless fascination for something bigger and better than what you have, which is really just a human weakness being exploited, also topped with the general replacement that pursuing endless gear tends to have over the pursuit of endless technique and compositional prowess, which inconveniently cannot be purchased and is much harder to acquire, I tend to passionately dislike the idea of instruments like Blackmachine (if you haven't noticed).

That being said, if you can juggle your odd pursuit of materialistic perfectionism using currency as your measuring stick and still create beautiful, inspiring music and actually living up to that dream you had when you were a kid fascinated by music, more power to you.

If you haven't made a piece of tangible music in a long time and you have a guitar that's $10k or thereabouts, though, I highly encourage you to calibrate your priorities. 

Was that less dickish?


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## Ordacleaphobia (Dec 20, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> If you haven't made a piece of tangible music in a long time and you have a guitar that's $10k or thereabouts, though, I highly encourage you to calibrate your priorities.
> 
> Was that less dickish?



Not dickish at all; just from a singular point of view. You're making a lot of assumptions.

For some people, it's about the journey; and for others, it's about the destination. I think I wouldn't be too far off base at all to make the claim that there's a not-insignificant amount of people on this board (and in music in general) that are more into the gear than they are into music. My brother has never played an instrument in his life, but he'll nerd out over scale length and other guitar garbage with me, and he's got a shortlist of guitars he wants me to buy one day based off of these discussions. Gear is cool.

It's like that old guy down the road that has that absolutely bitchin, totally pristine, flawlessly restored classic car. You always see him working on it, but you have never _*once*_ seen him drive it. Some people just like things, and the thing itself is more important than what the thing is designed to do.

I feel the way you describe often; as I have a home studio that's pretty firmly in the 5 figure range. I treated an entire room of my home. I have an AxeFx, I have 5 very solid guitars, a rack full of gear, and a Roland e-kit that's worth a couple grand by itself. I have not written ONE (1) single complete song. Ever. I mostly just play covers or noodle around for a bit. So the thought of "Am I _*wasting*_ all of this gear?" is actually a pretty frequent occurrence- but at the end of the day, the answer is always no; because it makes me happy. Which is literally the point.


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## StevenC (Dec 20, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> If you haven't made a piece of tangible music in a long time and you have a guitar that's $10k or thereabouts, though, I highly encourage you to calibrate your priorities.
> 
> Was that less dickish?


Not really


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## Lord Voldemort (Dec 20, 2018)

StevenC said:


> Not really



Fuck



Ordacleaphobia said:


> Not dickish at all; just from a singular point of view. You're making a lot of assumptions.
> 
> For some people, it's about the journey; and for others, it's about the destination. I think I wouldn't be too far off base at all to make the claim that there's a not-insignificant amount of people on this board (and in music in general) that are more into the gear than they are into music. My brother has never played an instrument in his life, but he'll nerd out over scale length and other guitar garbage with me, and he's got a shortlist of guitars he wants me to buy one day based off of these discussions. Gear is cool.
> 
> ...



That's cool. I actually feel that way as well once in a while, I don't have anything as grand as a Blackmachine and I do write a good deal music, but even still I'll often neglect my 7 guitars and axe fx and awesome gear and play PS4 or watch Netflix, more than I care to admit.

I absolutely think that different people have different priorities, and I respect that. I also don't think there's anything wrong with that, by any stretch. Personally, I always find it odd when people own things just to own the thing, but I'm guilty of that in a smaller way as well, and you're still welcome to do that of course

My main thing is that, if you're a musician, it's easy to let this sort of pursuit replace your initial pursuit of musical discovery and creativity. While this may not be your story, I've found myself debating on a guitar forum about Blackmachines instead of writing music more times than I care to admit. I feel like that pursuit can be a dangerous one, but like I said, if you're happy than who cares? Personally, I wouldn't be happy if I wasn't making dope ass music and improving as a musician, and I think this rabbit hole can be a distraction from that, and I'm speaking more to people that share those goals and wish to make music and create.

And even then, there are plenty of people (Like Bulb, I guess) that can do both at the highest levels. I've just seen a lot of people get wrapped up in this kind of thing, personally, and just stop making music altogether but still oddly hoarding premium, untouched gear and it's always a shame to see. I think we've all seen that.

That's all. But shit, if you can juggle that, that's awesome.


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## xzacx (Dec 20, 2018)

Lord Voldemort said:


> If you haven't made a piece of tangible music in a long time and you have a guitar that's $10k or thereabouts, though, I highly encourage you to calibrate your priorities.
> 
> Was that less dickish?



The dickishness comes from the judgement. What if the person paying that money for the guitar doesn't even play at all? What if they're a collector or an investor? What if they just suck at playing guitar but find enjoyment in it? Who are you to say the reasons someone can have for buying something?


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## spudmunkey (Dec 20, 2018)

Is seeing a movie for $11 "wasting" that money if you enjoy it? You get nothing tangible out of it. If you go to one movie a month for a decade, you'll have spent nearly the cost of of a Fender Professional stratocaster. Is one more of a waste than the other if you aren't producing music that brings in income with the guitar?


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## Lord Voldemort (Dec 20, 2018)

xzacx said:


> The dickishness comes from the judgement. What if the person paying that money for the guitar doesn't even play at all? What if they're a collector or an investor? Who are you to say the reasons someone can have for buying something?



I think that owning something that serves a function, and then not using it for that function, is odd. I think it's even more odd when you spend a lot of money on the thing. That's just my opinion.

Even then though, that's perfectly fine (if odd), but I find that often this isn't the case. I think what's more often the case is a musician starts playing, learns some stuff with their basic gear, then musically plateau and get bored. To get over that plateau takes a lot of work and dedication, and in the meantime instead of putting that dedication you start to get interested in better gear as this might help you get over your plateau. In that, you discover this crazy rabbit-hole of gear, and your need for bigger and better things takes over your need to improve musically, as it's just as interesting and far easier to pursue. If this didn't happen to you, then you've no reason to be offended as this isn't even in regards to you.

It probably did happen to you, though. I think the ratio of people that get interested in guitar to make music compared to people that get interested guitar to buy the best-made one just to have is vastly disporportionate.

No judgement, just observation.

Again, if this didn't happen to you then my comments have no bearing on you whatsoever and I have no clue why you're miffed about them.


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## _MonSTeR_ (Dec 20, 2018)

I suck at playing guitar. I mean majorly suck. Like I have a PhD in it. I have a lot of guitars. I have infinitely more gear than talent, I spend more time looking at what gear to buy next than I do playing the gear I already have. I could sell all my gear and invest the money or fritter it away, but I actually enjoy owning these things like some folks like owning paintings or sculptures. And I love playing along (badly) to Passion and Warfare on my swirly Ibanezes

Does that qualify as making a piece of tangible music? Or do I have to record my own compositions in order to own justify owning them?


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