# Skinny guy: Starting gym



## chimpinatux (Oct 4, 2011)

Hey guys, ive joined a gym properly for the first time now, i went for first session today but im obviously going to need help planning something beneficial

My main goals are 
A: getting stronger
B: getting bigger 
C: not getting too fat in the process



Started doing some home workouts a few months ago with a load of weights a borrowed from a friend, and eating more, but i still think nutrition can be improved

I was originally 9st, now im about 140 lbs or just over

I understand i need to concentrate on those 'big compound moves' rather than the little bits like bicep curls, but i need help getting it into something coherent and planned that i can stick to week by week

I know this isnt a bodybuilding forum but this section of the forum seems to be very clued up on this kind of thing and im sure you can all understand a skinny guys motivation for being physically capable of carrying a rack filled with tube poweramp and all kinds of goodies halfway away a city!

Thanks guys

Also, im going to put it out there that going into a gym was a lot less intimidating than i thought it might be, the trainer who did the equipment and safety induction was very nice and one guy helped me set up the pulldown machine when i looked clueless


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 4, 2011)

Ok this is a long read and basically it's a copy and paste of some advice I gave to Mikeh and Fun111 on here and as you can see its a humungous post and don't really feel like typing it out every time Like I said its a copy and paste so some of the stuff you may have already addressed. 

I would start off with a push/pull/leg split.I don't see any problem with you starting with a split especially seeing as you have already done weights in the past.

Now a basic routine should look like this:

push day(chest/shoulders/triceps)

Flat bench press or dumbell flat bench press
incline flat bench press or dumbell
dips
skullcrushers
shoulder press
shrugs(for you're traps)


pull day(back and biceps)

deadlifts
wide grip pull ups
t bar rows or bent over rows
standard bicep curl
reverse grip curls or hammer curls(for you're forearms)

legs

SQUATS!!(4/5 sets)
leg press
leg extensions
calf raises

for volume of reps and how many sets, it all depends on the person and what they react to but I would start with between 8-12 and 3 sets( a part from squats), you can then later on change it.Resting period should be between 60 and 90 secs.

I would start off with this and then eventually move onto a 4 or 5 split routine as then you can roughly do about 4 exercises for bigger body parts and 3 for smaller body parts.remember always use good technique and don't let the weight drop when going down on lets say a bench press, you rip more muscle fibres on the negative part of a rep than you do on the positive.


As for putting on 20lbs, that is definitely achievable but you will achieve much faster with a proper diet

Here is some good tips for diet, coutesy of uk muscle:

Protein 4kcals per gram 

So what is protein and what does it do?

Protein is made up of amino acids. These amino acids are what our bodies require to exist, to build muscle, skin, bone, hair...the list goes on. When we eat protein our body breaks it down into amino acids and uses them as and when it needs them, for what ever it requires.

For our interests its building muscle so we need to make sure that we have an abundance of amino's to satisfy our bodies needs, so that we have enough to grow bigger!

We do this by eating quality protein sources at regular intervals. This is so that our body doesn't turn catabolic and start to break down its hard earned muscle due to not being fed regularly!! In short, if we dont eat enough protein, we shrink!!!

The amount we need to eat in each meal depends on A.. the amount of meals, and B.. the lean mass we hold. The bigger we are the more we need in a day and the more meals we eat the less we need in each meal.

Some good protein sources are

Red meat
Chicken
Fish
Eggs
Whey powders
Milk
Soy
Nuts
Beans
Lentils

Human tissue has an individual string of amino acids as do all protein sources. Some are better than others for building muscle.

Whole eggs for instance, are near perfect for this purpose. We need not worry too much about amino spectrums as beginners, as long as we are eating a variation of some or all of the above choices through the day.

Carbohydrates 4kcals per gram 

Carbs are used as an energy source for our bodies. We need energy to go about our daily lives and if in abundance, carbs give our bodies the calories it needs to grow. This energy is stored in the muscles, as well as the liver as a substance called glycogen. Its muscle glycogen that gives our muscles the energy to perform. It also is what gives them that full look. Liver glycogen is what gives our bodies the energy to live out our day to day lives.

Carbohydrates are all different. Some have a low glycemic index, whilst others are medium or high. What is the glycemic index (GI)?

The glycemic index is used to determine how quickly a particular food is absorbed and is principally used in reference to foods which are high in carbohydrates. The quicker the carb is absorbed, the shorter the burst of energy we get due to a sudden raise in blood sugar.

The slower the absorbtion, the lower the blood sugar and a long sustained amount of energy provided.

The higher the blood sugar, the more insulin the body provides to counter act that sudden raise.

So what will insulin do??

For the basic content of this beginners article, I wont go deep into insulin. Lets just say that insulin helps the uptake of all nutrients consumed. This means that while protein is stored more efficiently, so are fats and carbs. This may make a person fat, and we dont want that!!!

Although low GI carbs are a better source of energy, there are still times that we can manipulate hi GI alternatives such as before, during and after a workout. We need fast energy to train and a spike of insulin post workout PWO will obviously be handy to absorb protein when we need it most .

What happens if we eat high GI carbs all day long such as chocolates, sweets, sugary drinks?

Well it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that body fat may increase, but what else can go wrong??

If you think about it, high GI sugars raise blood sugar, which the body produces insulin to lower again. Now when this happens our blood sugar takes a nose dive which has the opposite effect and makes us feel tired and low. We then start to crave sugar again in order to raise those blood levels. Can you see what is happening here? Yes, we are on the slippery slope of raising and lowering our blood sugar which in turn makes us feel up and down in energy and mood! Anyone ever experienced this?? I think so!

So we can see that a long sustained release of energy is better for keeping our blood sugar stable, which is done by eating low GI carbs.

Examples of low/high GI carbohydrates are hard to put forward as there is a vary long scale of variables. The best thing to do is buy a book on GI which you can get in any good bookstore.

Alternatively you can find a GI database as well as learn more on GI at this link

The Glycemic Index

One last point regarding GI

The GI of any given food is affected by a number of other variables. Fats, fibre and protein consumed with carbs slows down the absorbtion considerably. In fact, hi GI foods will slow quite a bit if eaten with low GI foods. This leads us to the fact that its good to eat well balanced meals containing protein, fibre and fats to keep our blood sugars stable.

Fats 9kcals per gram 

Fats are also an energy source which some people prefer to carbohydrates

A further point to note is that fats will not spike insulin levels.

There are 5 different types of fats, all of which are beneficial in optimum health, some more than others.

saturated fats
polyunsaturated fats or omega 6 poly's
monounsaturated fats
trans fats*
omega 3 fish oils, a type of poly

*should be kept restricted as can lead to heart disease and cancer if taken in abundance.

Ok, again I wont confuse the issue here as it is a beginners article so I will only state that which applies to our beginners diet.

If we are using carbohydrates as our main energy fuel, we then need to keep fats to a moderate level. Although a small amount of all the above fats are needed, we as bb'ers should eat mainly monounsaturated fats i.e.
avocado pears
rapeseed oils
olive oils

and omega 3 oils
salmon
trout
mackerel
sardines
pilchards
tuna (to a lesser degree)

There are also some good omega oil blends on the market such as udos choice or Holland and Barrett optimum oil blend. Note that vegetarians cant have the fish oils that the above oils contain so flax seed oil would be a good choice for them.

The fats that come naturally in foods such as eggs and meats are ok as long as they are not over eaten.....the only one that possibly could be over eaten would be eggs.

If you are using fats as the main source of energy then more than moderate amounts can be consumed as long as carbohydrates are kept down somewhat.

So what should I use as my main source of fuel for energy?? 

This is a complicated question as we are all so different. There are technical computerised machines which measure our co2 levels that can determine our exact ratios of fats and carbohydrates needed as an individual but again, this is more advanced than we need to concern ourselves with as beginners.

I feel that trial and error is the best way to learn about our bodies and so what better than to try all the options for a period of X amount of time and see what suits us best?

Low fat, high carbs
Low carbs, high fat
Even a mix of the two (my favourite option)

I feel that if the low/zero carb, high fat route is the one you wish to follow then at least one carb meal a day is needed. Alternatively, some go for a "clean carb up" day once a week, finding it good to replenish depleted glycogen stores.

The ratios we eat will effect the amount of meals necesary in any given day. We already know fats and fibre slows the absorbtion of carbs we eat, but it also slows the whole meal down. So if we eat high fat and low carbs, we need not eat much more than 3 or 4 meals a day (as long as sufficient protein is present). On the other end of the sclae a high carb, low fat meal requires as many as 6-8 meals with moderate protein in each portion.

Other key things to remember when formulating our diets are 

To drink plenty of fluids a day (2-3 litres)
Keeping hydrated is a must for optimum performance as an athlete as well as keeping in good health.

And eat plenty of fibre
Fibre comes naturally in countless foods but fruit, veg , nuts, beans and pulses are some of the best sources of fibre and some or all of the above should be incorporated daily in your nutrition plan.

An example daily food intake would look something like this

Meal 1
whole eggs
oats 

Meal 2
chicken
basmati rice
fruit

Meal 3
tuna
salad
olive/flax oil
nuts

Meal 4
Baked beans
wholemeal toast
serving of whey

Meal 5 PWO
whey in water
glucose powder OR
maltodextrine powder

Meal 6
steak
jacket potato
green veg

So now we know what to eat and when to eat it, how much do we need to consume for optimum growth with minimum body fat BF?

Some bb'ers prefer to eat what ever they can get their hands on "if it aint nailed down then eat it!!" I have heard some say before. This can be an effective way of eating if you want sheer bulk, but has a few drawbacks.

1 Its very easy to gain a shed load of body fat

2 sometimes a person may eat too much of the wrong types of foods which can hinder their gains. For example, eating KFC all day long is great for protein and fat, but neglects carbohydrates.

Also eating food from the bakery down the street will fill you up on plenty of carbs and fat, but the protein will be lacking!!

So what do we do? How do we calculate our intake?

First off we need to know how much of each macronutrient is in the foods we eat. Again, any good bookstore will have a nutrition guide, or hit this link

Nutrition facts, calories in food, labels, nutritional information and analysis &ndash; NutritionData.com

Next we need to work out our calorie requirements and I must credit the next section to J. Beradi as it is an extract from his Massive Eating Article.....







Step #1: Resting Metabolic Rate 

Resting metabolic rate (RMR) is the energy it costs the body to basically keep alive. This doesn't include the costs of getting your butt out of bed and moving around; those numbers are calculated in later. Although you might not guess it, about 50 to 70 percent of your entire day's calorie expenditure is a result of the RMR. So, let's figure out your RMR right now. 


Determining RMR: 

To start off with, you need to take your body weight in pounds and convert it to kilograms. (International readers, please bear with us silly non-metric Americans for a moment.) This is a simple conversion. Just divide your body weight by 2.2. 

Next you take your percent of fat and multiply it by your body weight (which is now in kilograms). This will give you your fat mass (FM) in kilograms. Next simply subtract this number from your total weight in kilograms and you'll have your fat free mass (FFM) in kilograms. 

Before we go on, why don't we try this out on me. Since I'm an athlete with a body weight of 200lbs at 5% body fat, I'd take my total body mass and divide it by 2.2: 

Total body mass in kilograms = 200lbs / 2.2 = 91 kg 

Next I'd multiply this kilogram number (91 kg) by my percent of body fat. Remember, percents are really decimals so 5% equals 0.05, 12% bodyfat will be .12 etc. 

Fat Mass = 91kg x 0.05 = 4.55kg FM 

Next I subtract this fat mass number (4.55 kg) from my total body mass (91kg): 

Fat Free Mass = 91kg - 4.55kg = 86.45kg 

Therefore my fat free mass is 86.45 kilograms. From that I can determine my RMR. The formula for RMR is as follows: 

Resting Metabolic Rate for Athletes (in calories per day) = 500 + 22 x fat free mass (in kilograms). 

Again, for me, I'd multiply 22 times my fat free mass and add 500 to that number as shown below: 

RMR= 22 x 86.45 + 500 = 2402 

Therefore my resting metabolic rate is about 2400 calories per day. Everyone have their RMR figured out? Good, let's move on. 


Step #2: Cost of Activity 

The Cost of Activity represents how many calories are required to move your butt around during the day. This includes the cost of walking out to your car, scraping the ice off the damn thing, driving to work, pinching the secretary's ass, going to lunch with the boys, and of course, training after work. These factors make up about 20 to 40% of your daily caloric intake based on your activity level. So let's figure out your costs of activity. I'll use myself as an example again.


Determining Activity Costs: 

Cost of Daily Activity is equal to the RMR you calculated above multiplied by an activity factor that fits your daily routine. I've listed some common activity factors below: 

Activity Factors: 

1.2-1.3 for Very Light (bed rest) 

1.5-1.6 for Light (office work/watching TV) 

1.6-1.7 for Moderate (some activity during day) 

1.9-2.1 for Heavy (labour type work) 

Note: Don't consider your daily workout when choosing a number. We'll do that later. 

With this information we can get back to determining my calorie needs. Since I work at a university, most of my day is pretty sedentary. Even though I run back and forth between the lab and classes, I've selected 1.6 as my activity factor. Therefore the amount of calories it takes to breathe and move around during the day is about 3800 calories as shown below: 

RMR x Activity Factor = 2400 calories x 1.6 = 3800 calories 


Costs of Exercise Activity: 

Next, we need to determine how many calories your exercise activity burns so that we can factor this into the totals. Exercise activity can be calculated simply by multiplying your total body mass in kilograms (as calculated above) by the duration of your exercise (in hours). Then you'd multiply that number by the MET value of exercise as listed below. (MET or metabolic equivalent, is simply a way of expressing the rate of energy expenditure from a given physical activity.) 

MET values for common activities: 

high impact aerobics 7 
low impact aerobics 5 

high intensity cycling 12 
low intensity cycling 3 

high intensity walking - 6.5 
low intensity walking - 2.5 

high intensity running 18 
low intensity running 7 

circuit-type training 8 
intense free weight lifting 6 
moderate machine training 3 

So here's the formula: 

Cost of Exercise Activity = Body Mass (in kg) x Duration (in hours) x MET value 

And here's how I calculate it for myself: 

Exercise Expenditure for weights = 6 METS X 91kg x 1.5 hours = 819 calories 

Exercise Expenditure for cardio = 3 METS X 91 kg x .5 hours = 137 calories 

Add these two together and I burn 956 total calories during one of my training sessions. 

Since my training includes about 90 minutes of intense free weight training and 30 minutes of low intensity bicycling (four times per week), my exercise energy expenditure might be as high as 1000 calories per training day! 

The next step is to add this exercise number to the number you generated when multiplying your RMR by your activity factor (3800 calories per day in my case). 

So 3800 calories + about 1000 calories = a whopping 4800 calories per day! And we're not done yet! (Note: I rounded 956 up to 1000 for the sake of simplicity. If you're a thin guy trying to gain muscle, it's better to round up anyway than to round down.) 


Step #3: Thermic Effect of Food 

TEF is the amount of calories that it takes your body to digest, absorb, and metabolise your ingested food intake. This makes up about 5 to 15% of your total daily calorie expenditure. Since the metabolic rate is elevated via this mechanism 10 to 15% for one to four hours after a meal, the more meals you eat per day, the faster your metabolic rate will be. This is a good thing, though. It's far better to keep the metabolism high and eat above that level, than to allow the metabolism to slow down by eating infrequently. Protein tends to increase TEF to a rate double that of carbs and almost triple that of fats so that's one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of protein meals. 


Determining the Thermic Effect of Food: 

To determine the TEF, you need to multiply your original RMR value (2400 in my case) by 0.10 for a moderate protein diet or 0.15 for a high protein diet. So this is what the formula looks like: 

TEF = RMR x 0.10 for moderate protein diet (1 gram per pound of bodyweight) 

TEF = RMR x 0.15 for high protein diet (more than 1 gram per pound of bodyweight) 

Since I eat a very high protein diet (about 350 to 400 grams per day), I use the 0.15 factor and my TEF is about 360 calories per day as displayed by the calculation below: 

Thermic Effect of Food = 2400 calories x 0.15 = 360 calories per day 

Now add that to your calorie total. 


Step #4: Adaptive Thermogenesis 

I like to call Adaptive Thermogenesis the "X factor" because we just aren't sure how much it can contribute to daily caloric needs. Some have predicted that it can either increase daily needs by 10% or even decrease daily needs by 10%. Because it's still a mystery, we typically don't factor it into the equation. 

Just for interest's sake, one factor included in the "X factor" is unconscious or spontaneous activity. Some people, when overfed, get hyper and increase their spontaneous activity and even have been known to be "fidgety." Others just get sleepy when overfed  obviously the fidgets will be burning more calories that the sleepy ones. 

Other factors include hormone responses to feeding, training, and drugs, hormone sensitivity (insulin, thyroid, etc), stress (dramatically increases metabolic rate) or temperature induced metabolic changes (cold weather induces increased metabolic activity and heat production). 

With all that said, you don't need to do any math on this part or fiddle with your calorie total. This is just something to keep in mind. 


Step #5: Putting it all together 

Okay, so how many damn calories do you need to consume each and every day? Well, adding up RMR plus activity factor (3800 calories in my case), cost of weight training (819 calories), cost of cardio (137 calories), and TEF (360 calories), we get a grand total of about 5116 calories! (Remember, that's just my total. You'll get a different number.) 

Now that's a lot of food! And I must eat this each and every day when I want to gain weight. Are you surprised at how many calories I need? Most people are. So the next time you complain that you're "eating all day and can't gain a pound" you'd better realistically evaluate how much you're really eating. If you're not gaining a pound, then you're falling short on calories. 






Thank you John....Back to me now.

So this may seem like a lot of food and you may wonder where you will put it all. We must remember that the above article is only an example and can be modified a little. For instance there are a lot of whey powders, meal replacements MRP and weight gainer drinks available. These are very good for getting in those extra few kcals. Maybe one can eat 3-4 whole food meals and 2-3 liquid meals. That makes it a little easier doesn't it?

What if I am still struggling?

Well we can build up to this massive amount of food slowly. Start by eating half to two thirds of the suggested total calories. Once you can easily manage that, add one more meal, or up the kcals a little in your existing meals.

How ever you do it, you will get there in the end.

There will be some days that we just cant stomach all the food and other days, we will be as hungry as a horse...thats bodybuilding guys 

So to summarise

Eat plenty of protein, every 2-3 hours. I suggest 1.5-2g per approximate LB of lean mass throughout the day.

Eat the rest of your calories from low GI carbohydrates and/or quality fats (both in the ratios that you have chosen)

Drink plenty of fluids.

Eat lots of fibrous foods like vegetables and fruit

Work out your individual calorie requirements and devise a well balanced food plan using correct nutrient data/guide.



As for supplements,Supplements SUPPLEMENT your food, so if you;re getting enough protein,carbs, fat and calories then you don't need supplements,if you're eating lots of red meat meat then you don't need creatine.However it is very difficult to get all the macronutrients needed from food so this is where supplements come in handy.The first you should look at is protein powders but like I said if you have enough protein in you're diet you don't need it(unlikely) so get a protein powder.Look in to others like creatine,amino acids,carbs.multivitamins and efas if you're diet is lacking in those things

hope this helps

credit goes out to Jimmy from uk muscle and John Beradi.


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 4, 2011)

Wow man thats a lot, dont think il get bored reading any time soon

And holy shit at how much you eat... i think i need to bump up a bit too, although my calculations would put me at 3500 on average days i think. 
How much of that could i get away with by drinking milk? ive heard this gallon a day stuff but that just sounds ridiculous, i think im drinking about a litre a day


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 4, 2011)

chimpinatux said:


> Wow man thats a lot, dont think il get bored reading any time soon
> 
> And holy shit at how much you eat... i think i need to bump up a bit too, although my calculations would put me at 3500 on average days i think.
> How much of that could i get away with by drinking milk? ive heard this gallon a day stuff but that just sounds ridiculous, i think im drinking about a litre a day



well tbh mate when i was on a diet(ran out of money now) i was drinking 2 pints a day.3 or 4 pints is easily doable a yes it would be absolutely fine to get a lot of calories from milk.

A shake that i was using a lot was this;

half a pint of milk
half a pint of water
choc protein powder
peanut butter
olive oil

It all goes in the blender a hey presto! This type of thing really gets the calories high and there is loads of protein and good fats in it.Its not bad tasting either, a bit sickly though.


----------



## Winspear (Oct 4, 2011)

I don't think you need as much as 3500 but you didn't mention your height 
That's about the right amount for me, I'm 5 ft 9 and 170lbs (started @ 145)

Anyway yeah a lot of nutrition. Here's an example day from my diet @ 3200 cals

A banana, porridge, scoop of whey protein with water (22g of protein, 117 cals in a scoop)

Another scoop with a pint of semi milk

Peanut butter sandwich with a banana

Another scoop with a pint of semi milk

Pasta with can of tuna

A chicken breast for dinner with a large serving of brown rice, sweet potato, and salad

Another scoop with a pint of semi milk



If it wasn't for money I'd eat a little bit more meat and rely less on protein powder, but get the nutrition by any means necessary. 
My days vary and I eat a mix of chicken beef and fish, but on average around 3200 cals a day split up into 290g protein, 390g carbs, and 60g fat.


Most workout routines you can find online do good. I've never tried push/pull routines but it makes sense.

I love my 4 day body split:

Chest+Biceps
Legs
Day off
Shoulders+Triceps
Back
Day off


----------



## jymellis (Oct 4, 2011)

i have had awesome results lately from a super high protein, low calorie,low sugar diet.

i work out 2 times a week with free weights. and cardio on an elliptical 2 times a week.

i am cycling between muscle milk and a generic whey protein drink. along with creatine punch only on workout days.


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 4, 2011)

actually i don't do a push/pull /leg either

I'm a 4 day split man myself

back&biceps
off
shoulders &traps
Legs
chest and triceps
off
off

I should really practice what I preach:lol nah but in all seriousness,either way will be fine


----------



## jymellis (Oct 4, 2011)

im also a really thin guy. when i worked out more often. it seemed like it didnt give me body enough time to rebuild the muscles. a large person has reserves for it body to use to rebuild the muscle fairly quickly. with smaller builds. we dont have "reserves". so we basically build of what we eat. taking a couple days off between weight days has improved my muscle gains a great deal, without just getting "big".


----------



## jymellis (Oct 4, 2011)

maybe i should post a progress pic so the guys in my other post know who they are dealing with lolol

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/off-topic/173072-need-some-help-my-cinci-people.html#post2686222


----------



## Harry (Oct 5, 2011)

Wingchun has a fairly good post and I know it's easy to copy and paste that  but some of the stuff there is just no longer accepted as being scientifically sound, or rather, some of it was just never scientifically sound in the first place.

Too many exercises for a beginner. The OP should just stick with his plan of the big compound moves.

Once you have a good command of the big compound moves and have reached a bit more of an advanced stage in your training, then that's where the isolation moves really come into play.
Some people that do bodybuilding may never even need to do core work. Although if you plan to do powerlifting, working your core is much more important (contrary to what some may think), since stronger core = stronger lifts and less chance of injury.

Now onto the bit about nutrition (where some of Wingchun's post is completely way off)

The "eat every 2-3 hours" thing is not only completely bunk, but it's just unnecessary over thinking and stressing about something that has zero effects on the final outcome.
Our body is not a computer and does not run on some clock, so it's complete nonsensical to think if we ate 3 hours and one minute later instead of 3 hours later that we would be hindering our results.
The 'anabolic window' is another debunked concept. Important if you're an endurance athlete, but if you're just lifting weights and doing the usual amounts of cardio someone that lifts does, you're simply not going to deplete your glycogen stores enough that you need immediate carb intake post workout and your muscles aren't going to go 'OMG CATABOLICZZZ" after your workout
So you DON'T need to have that post workout shake immediately.
In fact, if you just want to eat purely whole foods, that's fine.
Protein powder is still good though, because it's a cheap source of protein and a great way to add calories to meals because of it's liquid nature (well by the time you shake it anyway, unless you like eating powder )

Personally, I tend to go for 3 big meals per day, with a 14-16 hour fasted period and sometimes train in a fasted state (although I do take BCAA supplements just prior to the workout) because it suits my lifestyle better.
Let's face it, having small, little meals just isn't satisfying at all. Try hitting your daily macronutrients and calories in 2-3 big meals instead and you'll see how much more satisfying it is. You'll actually feel full and don't have to sit there thinking "But I want to eat more".
However of course the point about getting your shit together as far as macros goes is quite right on.
You definitely can't just eat 30 grams of protein per day and the rest being fat and carbs, the results just wont be optimal.
However, that said, protein requirements for lifters are quite over exaggerated.
1 gram per lb of lean mass is PLENTY. There's only so much protein the body can use and synthesize. No point of ingesting 300+ grams of protein unless you're the size of Jay Cutler or Phil Heath and/or on the 'special supplements' that increase protein synthesis.
Get the rest of the cals from fat and carbs.
Fat is a hugely important macronutrient for anyone that lives an active lifestyle, so never neglect that

GI index is another thing not to worry about unless you're a diabetic.
The point about fish oil is spot on though. If you're not getting enough in your diet, supplement it.
I tend to think lifters have a much higher vitamin and dietary mineral requirement than the general totally sedentary population, so a quality multi vitamin or (as I do) buying separate vitamins and dietary minerals is a must.
Trans fats should be fairly easy to avoid if you're not eating complete garbage, don't stress that one too much.

May add more later to this thread if something comes to mind.


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 5, 2011)

^completely agree.I feel like a bit of an idiot posting that as I DO NOT advocate isolation exercises,frequent small meals,"the anabolic window" or even high amounts of protein.Like I said some of the stuff I wrote in the big post I don't agree with any more and just so the OP understands that I'm not being extremely fickle,A lot of so called scientific info in bodybuilding has been quashed recently as the studies that discovered the info were flawed.


I know you're starting out and I don't want to confuse you but here is an interesting read on How much protein is actually needed:

UK-Muscle Body Building Community - Bodybuilding Forum

just click the link and it will download a pdf.Its quite a long read but very interesting.


----------



## jymellis (Oct 5, 2011)

heres my pics, im 6 foot 3 not sure of weight in these pics.


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 5, 2011)

Just so you know a bit more info on what i can realistically do, at the moment im a student so i have the time between classes to go and get in extra meals if i need/want
I've always figured the 6 meals a day is just unrealistic, 4 seems to suit me fine plus additional snacks

I think i am going to run with a push/pull/leg split, having any more than 3 sessions in a week i think would burn me out. My first session yesterday i did the pull part, pretty sore today after new stuff, so i might give myself 2 days off then do another segment

On a leg day there would be squats obviously, is it advisable to do deadlifts as well same session or is that just overkill? and where exactly would one fit in core stuff?

Just to reiterate im about 140 lbs (not sure atm) and 5' 9/10''
Also if its relevant im 21, so i dont think ive hit a metabolic slowdown yet but over the hurdle of skinny teen

I might get pics of where i stand at the moment if i can find the right cable...


----------



## jymellis (Oct 5, 2011)

im 34 and work out 2 times a week for about an hour and a half a time. i have a wife and 5 kids, and a full time job. so i have almost ZERO free time


----------



## Winspear (Oct 5, 2011)

Many meals a day can be difficult yes. It's more of a way to just get the calories you need without stuffing yourself with huge meals. I certainly couldn't get the nutrition I want if I didn't split it up like I posted. The shakes are a real quick and easy way to sort that out. You can do the usual breakfast/lunch/dinner with shakes inbetween. You can have them with water between classes or go and buy a pint of milk to put in. 

Deadlifts on pull day. 
The main big compound exercise for each day:
Push: Bench
Pull: Deadlift
Leg: Squat

The other exercises suggested above are good to go with that 
Personally on leg day I do squats, then leg press, leg extensions, leg curls, and calf raises. The leg curls do your hamstrings as do deadlifts, so you may wish to chuck them in on your pull day but I probably wouldn't bother with them if I was doing a push pull leg split.

You don't really need to do core. Squats, deadlifts etc do plenty for you there. As long as your bodyfat isn't high you'll get visible abs without doing core exercises. Personally I want to be pretty big but don't like the big abs look, so I figure if I trained abs I they would be too big by the time the rest of me is how I want it.


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 5, 2011)

So for a draft plan im looking at something like this, to keep with mainly big moves:

Push: Bench(flat and incline) Some variation of shoulder press, shrugs( i see this as a pull, but i guess it kinda gets worked out with shoulders), and perhaps dips

Pull: Deadlifts, Pullups (i really like these for some reason, theres something satisfying for pulling your whole bodyweight upwards) pulldowns on machine, Rows (il go with seated ones unless someone can suggest alternatives being better)

Legs: Squats, Calf raises, and perhaps machine leg raises if i feel up to it after brutal squats

Sound good so far? i get the feeling that workouts would be fairly short and sharp


----------



## Winspear (Oct 5, 2011)

That looks good to me. Yeah some people would consider shrugs as back, thus a pull. Doesn't really matter as long as you're doing it all regularly. Just split it up so you're putting in equal amounts of effort on each day (for example, some people put deadlifts as legs but I like them as the main exercise of back day, saving energy on leg day for squats).

Seated rows are fine but I love bent over rows with a barbell!

Machine leg raises - do you mean leg press or extensions? Either way, I'd definitely do something yes. You might completely kill your squats, but you'll find you should have a renewed energy for a different exercise even though it's the same bodypart.

That's a pretty solid routine. Eat well and you will gain  Don't push up the diet too fast else you may get more than you need and get fat. Gradually increase until you see a steady 1 or 2 pound per week weight gain. Keep your diet there until you don't gain for 3 weeks, then add another 200 cals or so. Repeat. I think that's a pretty way to make gains and stay lean and not risk putting on fat. Obviously slower because you are not always utilising your full potential, but you can never know if you are until you put on fat, haha.

I'd definitely include dips with chest, and a basic barbell curl on pull day. There's a solid bicep and tricep exercise to keep your arms growing, though the compound exercises will cover you.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Oct 6, 2011)

If you 'don't want to work out more than three days a week' then don't expect to look like someone who lifts more than three days a week. 

Attitude is everything in the beginning. You need to understand what you're undertaking is not some recreational activity, it is a lifestyle change. As a student, you have nothing but time. Believe me. You may not think it now, but the time constraints only get worse. 

What everyone else needs to remember is that this guy is a beginner. As in first-timer. Everyone is suggesting squats and deadlifts and shit that he probably shouldn't be doing. First of all, that's going to be way too taxing on his CNS and make him not even want to go to the gym (which already sounds like that's an issue anyway). More importantly- think back to when you first stepped into a gym. Did you do deadlifts and squats the first time you ever walked into a gym? Probably not. I know I didn't. And I know if I would have, I would have had the shittiest form ever and possibly hurt myself or at least made a fool of myself. Let the guy ease into the concept of going to the gym and working out, and then hit him with the heavier concepts. You can't fire a canon out of a canoe.


----------



## Winspear (Oct 6, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> If you 'don't want to work out more than three days a week' then don't expect to look like someone who lifts more than three days a week.
> 
> Attitude is everything in the beginning. You need to understand what you're undertaking is not some recreational activity, it is a lifestyle change. As a student, you have nothing but time. Believe me. You may not think it now, but the time constraints only get worse.



Agreed 




Uncreative123 said:


> What everyone else needs to remember is that this guy is a beginner. As in first-timer. Everyone is suggesting squats and deadlifts and shit that he probably shouldn't be doing. First of all, that's going to be way too taxing on his CNS and make him not even want to go to the gym (which already sounds like that's an issue anyway). More importantly- think back to when you first stepped into a gym. Did you do deadlifts and squats the first time you ever walked into a gym? Probably not. I know I didn't. And I know if I would have, I would have had the shittiest form ever and possibly hurt myself or at least made a fool of myself. Let the guy ease into the concept of going to the gym and working out, and then hit him with the heavier concepts. You can't fire a canon out of a canoe.



Not necessarily agreed. These are the exercises of starting strength for a reason. Of course the weights should be kept low and a trainer is necessary to teach proper form, but nobody is going to get hurt doing these exercises with an unloaded bar. The beginning is the easiest time to gain and there's no better way to do so than with compound exercises. Yeah they are taxing on the CNS but not if you ease into them slowly with higher reps/lower weights - and if you're going to train, you might as well get used to putting 100% into it straight away, imo.


----------



## The Reverend (Oct 6, 2011)

This thread inspired me to start lifting again...whenever I get around to joining a gym.


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 6, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> If you 'don't want to work out more than three days a week' then don't expect to look like someone who lifts more than three days a week.
> 
> Attitude is everything in the beginning. You need to understand what you're undertaking is not some recreational activity, it is a lifestyle change. As a student, you have nothing but time. Believe me. You may not think it now, but the time constraints only get worse.



In case i was misunderstood, i didnt mean 3 days a week as a threshold of how much i can be bothered, i put this as a good number to get in enough days for rest and recuperation, which is what everyone says is required.

Also, one of the trainers there said if i ever needed some tips on squats then he would be happy to help, so im planning on getting the good form straight away

I am well aware of how much time i have, honestly i could probably go for 90 mins everyday and have the time, but i wont because thats just not healthy, if stepping it up to 4 days in the future seems reasonable and worthwhile then perhaps i will


----------



## Winspear (Oct 6, 2011)

With the p/p/l routine I think that's just fine. Monday Wednesday Friday is good. I'd probably just do it every other day (so no 2 day break at the weekend) just to get that little bit more in. I find legs take longest to recover but doing legs on Friday isn't going to affect a workout on Sunday for example.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Oct 6, 2011)

EtherealEntity said:


> Of course the weights should be kept low and a trainer is necessary to teach proper form, but nobody is going to get hurt doing these exercises with an unloaded bar. The beginning is the easiest time to gain and there's no better way to do so than with compound exercises. Yeah they are taxing on the CNS but not if you ease into them slowly with higher reps/lower weights - and if you're going to train, you might as well get used to putting 100% into it straight away, imo.




That's not true at all. Just last month some kid destroyed his back doing deadlifts because he was a dumbass and was doing high reps with low weight. I can't find the thread on it otherwise I'd link you. He blamed 'deadlifts' and then everyone laughed at him for doing some many reps because that's what led to his problem. It was somewhere around the 20s range. Everyone giving 'advice' in this thread should be aware of that, but you're telling him to go to town with all of these lifts. As a beginner he will gain no matter what. 




chimpinatux said:


> In case i was misunderstood, i didnt mean 3 days a week as a threshold of how much i can be bothered, i put this as a good number to get in enough days for rest and recuperation, which is what everyone says is required.



Who's everyone? Everyone in this thread? lol. I'm certainly not saying it. And unless you know what each of these guys look like, I'd take their advice with a grain of salt. It's no different than taking guitar lessons or recording advice off this site- the proof is in the pudding (yes, pudding, not putting). 
Your muscles need from 24-48 hours of recovery time. You are working your legs out ONCE a week- effectively giving them 144-168 hours of recovery time. Seems a little ridiculous now doesn't it? Don't expect much results from that. Splits are designed to work opposite muscles while the others are recovering. i.e.:

M- Shoulders
T- Legs (ham focused)
W- Chest/tris
Th- Legs (quad focused)/abs or off day
F- Back/bis
S- off day or Legs (quad focused) (interchangeable w/above)

That's a six day split and there's at least 48 hours recovery time for each muscle group before it is hit again. It's not what I do, but it would work and at least you'd be working out each muscle group more than once a week. A lot of that stuff can be changed and you can add/remove things as you see fit (most people do more direct ab work). There's an endless amount of different splits you can do- at the bottom of which I would put the one you're currently on and 'full body' workouts. 



> I am well aware of how much time i have, honestly i could probably go for 90 mins everyday and have the time, but i wont because thats just not healthy, if stepping it up to 4 days in the future seems reasonable and worthwhile then perhaps i will


 Not healthy? The guy who just started going to the gym is now already proclaiming what is and isn't healthy. You are in no danger of over-training at this point, lol, believe me. Good luck dude.


----------



## Winspear (Oct 6, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> That's not true at all. Just last month some kid destroyed his back doing deadlifts because he was a dumbass and was doing high reps with low weight. I can't find the thread on it otherwise I'd link you. He blamed 'deadlifts' and then everyone laughed at him for doing some many reps because that's what led to his problem. It was somewhere around the 20s range. Everyone giving 'advice' in this thread should be aware of that, but you're telling him to go to town with all of these lifts. As a beginner he will gain no matter what.



Point taken - I mean 12-15 tops rather than 5-8.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth (Oct 6, 2011)

I don't want to derail this thread but I was wondering about opinions on the effectiveness of my current (Stronglifts/Starting Strength-based) self-made program (15 years old, 5ft6, 140lbs, been training for about a year I guess):

Monday: Chinups, 5x5 squats, 3x8-12 bench press, 3x8-12 triceps, 3x5 renegade rows
*rest*
Wednesday: Chinups, 5x5 squats, 5x5 overhead press, 3x8-12 triceps, 3x5 renegade rows
*rest*
Friday/Saturday (either, not both): Chinups, 5x5 squats, 3x8-12 dumbbell lunges, 1x5 deadlift, 3x5 renegade rows
*rest*

And thinking of adding in pushups, reverse crunches and forearm curls on rest days. For a general strength idea my current squat (I have done higher, but have been re-building up from empty bar after a short break) is 52.5-55kg and my current deadlift is 65-70kg.
Thanks, sorry again for the derail


----------



## jbrin0tk (Oct 6, 2011)

I don't know if any of you have heard of Jim Wendler, EliteFTS, or the 5/3/1 program, but these would be great places to start. So would Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength program. Get someone to teach you the big lifts. These will bring the most results, especially in terms of getting stronger. All it takes is dedication, just like guitar. I went from a 135 deadlift, 185 bench, and 0 squat to a 600lb. deadlift, 400lbs. bench, and 525lb. squat in three years with no bench shirt, squat/deadlift suit, briefs, etc. It can be done if you work and work hard at it. 
I'm not going to touch nutrition, haha. I've never used supplements (there's nothing wrong with them) and don't eat properly.

One other big piece of advice I would give is to not jump in too quickly. Don't do 3,000 sets of things every day right at first. You will burn out mentally and physically. Good luck. If you are serious, I could help you design a short training cycle to get an idea of what you could do. I've designed many powerlifting cycles using Issurin's Block Periodization model.

Finally, there is a lot of really good advice already in this thread.


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 7, 2011)

jbrin0tk said:


> Finally, there is a lot of really good advice already in this thread.



Yeah but you wanna take all the advice with a grain of salt as we don't have pictures of ourselves therefore none of us could know anything about weightlifting and nutrtion


----------



## scottro202 (Oct 7, 2011)

Right now, my workout is:

pushups (20 reps)
situps (30 reps)
15lb curls (20 reps)
tricep dips (15 reps)
tricep press (I think that's what it's called, my dad showed it to me can't remember the name, but 15 reps of that as well) 
pull ups (2-3 reps)
6in leg lifts (held in that position for as long as possible) 

and for pushups, I alternate between having my legs and my upper body elevated to get more of my chest. I also do cardio to finish off my workout. I do all of these for about 3 sets, every other day (when possible, with school and the band and the girlfriend and whatnot).

It works for me right now, but I need to incproporate more legs workouts in there. I don't go to a gym, I just do this in my bedroom with a dumbell and a pullup bar


----------



## jam3v (Oct 7, 2011)

I haven't read this thread, and I'm not trying to discredit anyone's advice, but it would only make sense to acquire this information from a forum that is dedicated to it:

Bodybuilding.com Forums - Bodybuilding And Fitness Board

You can get plenty of _proven_ beginner workouts here, and lots of information on nutrition.

Good luck and stay motivated!


----------



## GuitaristOfHell (Oct 7, 2011)

I've been hitting the gym too. Before my workout was Bike 10 miles, run 3.5 miles ( maybe more on either) then...... the shake weight  which does work, but I need more resistance.


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 7, 2011)

jam3v said:


> I haven't read this thread, and I'm not trying to discredit anyone's advice, but it would only make sense to acquire this information from a forum that is dedicated to it:
> 
> Bodybuilding.com Forums - Bodybuilding And Fitness Board
> 
> ...



Yes thats right you should of read the thread.IIRC Harry is a member of BB.com and I'm pretty sure you could get most of the basic info from BB.com from him,so I don't see the point of the OP going over trawling through loads of threads on BB.com.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Oct 7, 2011)

Wingchunwarrior said:


> Yeah but you wanna take all the advice with a grain of salt as we don't have pictures of ourselves therefore none of us could know anything about weightlifting and nutrtion




Yeah, that's exactly why I said the proof is in the pudding. You could weigh 150 lbs and squat the bar for all anyone knows. Why would anybody take advice on lifting weights from somebody like that? This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. You've already posted some questionable 'advice'- including but not limited to: telling someone not to go to bb.com BECAUSE someone here is a member there. LOL, how is that even relevant to someone reading articles on the site? You expect this person to regurgitate it word for word here? There's a lot more than one person here that's on bb.com, not that that's a good thing.
If anything you should've said to avoid bb.com because it's 90% people who are 150 lbs and don't lift and don't know anything. There are way better forums than that.


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 7, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> Yeah, that's exactly why I said the proof is in the pudding. You could weigh 150 lbs and squat the bar for all anyone knows. Why would anybody take advice on lifting weights from somebody like that? This isn't a difficult concept to grasp. You've already posted some questionable 'advice'- including but not limited to: telling someone not to go to bb.com BECAUSE someone here is a member there. LOL, how is that even relevant to someone reading articles on the site? You expect this person to regurgitate it word for word here? There's a lot more than one person here that's on bb.com, not that that's a good thing.
> If anything you should've said to avoid bb.com because it's 90% people who are 150 lbs and don't lift and don't know anything. There are way better forums than that.




Meh,I'd rather take advice from a 80lb weakling who has researched extensively on this field then a behemoth who is spewing bullshit myths.

This is a nice quote:

"In the world of science you do not believe in anything, you either understand
the facts or you do not."

Now as I see it weightlifting,fitness and nutrition are science,so facts are facts,I don't care who is saying it.


And also could you please point out my "questionable advice".There very well may be something wrong with my advice but I just want to know what it is.Of course,I better listen to you cos you put up pictures of yourself


----------



## Uncreative123 (Oct 7, 2011)

Wingchunwarrior said:


> Meh,I'd rather take advice from a 80lb weakling who has researched extensively on this field then a behemoth who is spewing bullshit myths.
> 
> This is a nice quote:
> 
> ...



Right, but the people who have put their time in at the gym and done their research are actually big. I don't know anyone that researches weightlifting as a hobby and then never puts it to use. Good luck finding the .01% that does and then hold them up as an example to discredit everyone else. I don't know why you're trying to make it sound like people who are big and/or strong just fell ass-backwards into it because that's not the case. They know exactly what they're doing. And no, you're wrong, weight-lifting is far from an exact science and their is proof of that in this very thread.
I've read a lot of articles on muscle confusion and switching up exercises/reps every 3-6 months and how it's worked wonders for people. Yet Ronnie Coleman did the same workout/split for 20 years. Who's right? I think it was Lee Haney (could be wrong; could've been some other pro bb'er) who did ridiculously high reps (25-30) for a lot of his sets which is a big no-no according to some, Yet it worked best for him. Some people need low reps high weight to gain leg mass, where as I'm the opposite and respond best to high reps low weight. Same thing with IF- according to conventional wisdom it should make you fatter and lose muscle, yet it does the opposite. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't do it for myself. Everyone's body is different and weightlifting/powerlifting is about listening to your body and responding accordingly.


----------



## jbrin0tk (Oct 7, 2011)

For websites, wannabebig.com/forums is a really good site as well, though the powerlifting section has much more knowledgeable posters and serious lifters. There are a bunch of guys there who really know what they are doing, though.


----------



## Wingchunwarrior (Oct 8, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> Right, but the people who have put their time in at the gym and done their research are actually big. I don't know anyone that researches weightlifting as a hobby and then never puts it to use. Good luck finding the .01% that does and then hold them up as an example to discredit everyone else. I don't know why you're trying to make it sound like people who are big and/or strong just fell ass-backwards into it because that's not the case. They know exactly what they're doing. And no, you're wrong, weight-lifting is far from an exact science and their is proof of that in this very thread.
> I've read a lot of articles on muscle confusion and switching up exercises/reps every 3-6 months and how it's worked wonders for people. Yet Ronnie Coleman did the same workout/split for 20 years. Who's right? I think it was Lee Haney (could be wrong; could've been some other pro bb'er) who did ridiculously high reps (25-30) for a lot of his sets which is a big no-no according to some, Yet it worked best for him. Some people need low reps high weight to gain leg mass, where as I'm the opposite and respond best to high reps low weight. Same thing with IF- according to conventional wisdom it should make you fatter and lose muscle, yet it does the opposite. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't do it for myself. Everyone's body is different and weightlifting/powerlifting is about listening to your body and responding accordingly.



No I still don't agree.You still don't have to have an impressive physique to give advice.Here's a few reasons:

Could of been been into bb when he was younger but has stopped because of/family/no time/not interested in it anymore.
Could of had a serious injury preventing him from training
serious illness ie cancer,hiv
not enough income to support bb lifestyle


These are just some of the reasons why some one might not be big but still have knowledge on bb/training/fitness.And even still,If a guy who had just started out training and came up to me and gave me advice,I certainly wouldn't prejudge what he has to say before he even says it.I mean look at guys like,Mark Rippetoe, Oskar Arden or Hany Rambod.They're not exactly in great shape but they've trained some of the greatest physiques to have graced the planet and certainly know what they are talking about.Moreover,would you take advice from all these actors with great bodies?They just do as they're told by their trainers but according to you their advice holds substance because they have good physiques.

As regards to everyone being different,shouldn't everyone stop giving advice then as we aren't the same as the person we're giving advice to?That argument can go on and on but in the end its not a very helpful thing to say to a beginner nor is it useful to say it at every opportunity."well I eat oranges and drink tea all day and it works for me",you see anyone can say "it works for me" but that doesn't necessarily mean they should carry on to do that or that its the best thing they could be doing to gain muscle.

I just find it hard that you can simply proclaim my and other member's posts as redundant because we don't have pictures of ourselves on the internet.Yet you can give all the advice you want just because you have a journal of your progress.Plus you haven't exactly given good advice to him and I think most people would disagree with you on the advice you gave.I'm done cluttering this thread with bickering.

The OP can take my advice if he wants,if he feels that my "pudding-less" advice holds no substance its not really a bother.I'm sure he'll read it somewhere else.


----------



## Uncreative123 (Oct 8, 2011)

Wingchunwarrior said:


> No I still don't agree.You still don't have to have an impressive physique to give advice.Here's a few reasons:
> 
> Could of been been into bb when he was younger but has stopped because of/family/no time/not interested in it anymore.
> Could of had a serious injury preventing him from training
> ...



lol, you did exactly what I said you would. Find the smallest, most obscure, mundane, trivial source (actually you didn't even find/cite a source) to reference. Cancer and AIDS patients, seriously? I would seriously hope those people are out living their lives not wasting the rest of it on the internet. BB'ing isn't nearly as expensive a hobby as most make it out to be. Eating at home is cheaper than eating out and you don't have to go to a gym. Sounds pretty cheap to me. If you can't afford food and working out at home then you've got some serious problems and again are in no position to be offering anyone advice on anything.



> These are just some of the reasons why some one might not be big but still have knowledge on bb/training/fitness.And even still,If a guy who had just started out training and came up to me and gave me advice,I certainly wouldn't prejudge what he has to say before he even says it.I mean look at guys like,Mark Rippetoe, Oskar Arden or Hany Rambod.They're not exactly in great shape but they've trained some of the greatest physiques to have graced the planet and certainly know what they are talking about.Moreover,would you take advice from all these actors with great bodies?They just do as they're told by their trainers but according to you their advice holds substance because they have good physiques.
> 
> As regards to everyone being different,shouldn't everyone stop giving advice then as we aren't the same as the person we're giving advice to?That argument can go on and on but in the end its not a very helpful thing to say to a beginner nor is it useful to say it at every opportunity."well I eat oranges and drink tea all day and it works for me",you see anyone can say "it works for me" but that doesn't necessarily mean they should carry on to do that or that its the best thing they could be doing to gain muscle.
> 
> ...




You're arguing semantics and you're only arguing for arguments sake. You do this in every thread I've come across because you think you know everything- and I'm here to tell you that you don't. Your first post proves it. You didn't even type it, it was just copy pasta'd. You weren't even offering your own advice; Pretty sad. You have the most illogical counter-arguments case in point: 'a diet of tea and oranges works for me'. And then you go on to relate to actors who get paid millions of dollars to get in shape and are known to take steroids to drop fat/gain muscle in very short periods of time. Again, such a trivial point and really has no place in this discussion.

The only advice I offered was 1) He should be working out each muscle group more than once a week and 2) It's not necessary or ideal for him to be doing squats and deadlifts at this point. and 3) That your word is far from the gospel. I'm sure he can read this advice elsewhere too. 


Serious question, do you even lift?


----------



## The Reverend (Oct 9, 2011)

Holy shit, guys. More advice, less arguing. From my point of perspective, it seems more like bodybuilding is like playing guitar: there's general guidelines, but each person gets results in their own way. 

You're killing my rediscovered desire to lift, damn it!


----------



## TRENCHLORD (Oct 9, 2011)

Push/pull/legs split is very good place to start. Don't do more then 3 or 4 different exercises per workout so you can put your all into the couple/a few sets of each. 

Maximum effort/self honesty beats all else including workout routine format, so having a preset number of sets and reps is sometimes over-rated.

Also, after your workout weights start going up on the various lifts, you might consider doing a 2-way split consisting of a flat barbell-bench day, and a deadlift day.

The great thing about this plan is that you can get to your deadlift every 5 or 6 days
with bench day falling in between.

Believe me, getting to the power lifts more often, while at the same time being better rested going in to the workout, leads to faster and better results.

You can do many, many isolation moves that feel great, and there's certainly a time and place for that (like when you want to take a month or two off the big lifts periodicaly), but generaly speaking, if you'll limit the small stuff to sort of "icing on the cake" status you'll be able to perform the big lifts more frequently and effectively,
which will certainly lead to bigger faster results.

In a 2-way split as such, do some leg-work after deadlift or sometimes in place of deadlift to mix things up. 

The main reason I advocate prioritising deadlift over squats most of the time is that with deadflifts you can truely push yourself to the point of collapse realatively safely.

Squats are an awsome mass builder/stimulator, but unless you have a heavy duty wide style squat rack with safety rods, your risking injury when pushing to extremes.

With deadlifts, you just drop the bar in the worst case. (which I've never even done, although it's been at my finger tips slipping out a million times).

The main thing with this kinda power lift focus is the other focus which is to put serious effort into getting the whole body pumped, warmed, and primed for those couple of all out worksets on deadlifts or bench.


----------



## Winspear (Oct 9, 2011)

Uncreative123 said:


> Eating at home is cheaper than eating out and you don't have to go to a gym. Sounds pretty cheap to me. If you can't afford food and working out at home then you've got some serious problems and again are in no position to be offering anyone advice on anything.



This doesn't really make sense...A BB diet is expensive. Of course the meaning of expensive differs between people, but more food = more money. Nobody compared it to eating out, yeah, eating out is _excessively_ expensive. I shop very carefully and it's safe to say I spend twice as much as I would if I was eating normally. There's plenty of people that couldn't afford to eat a big meat dinner and several pints of milk every day. How does their financial situation have anything to do with what advice they are qualified to give?


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 9, 2011)

Hey guys, its nice to see genuine debate on this but could we keep it a bit more polite please? 

I hit the bench for the first time last evening, i was just wondering, when people say they 'can bench xxx' are they including the weight of the bar in that? couldnt find anything on google except that the bar probably weighs about 40lbs ish


----------



## TRENCHLORD (Oct 9, 2011)

chimpinatux said:


> Hey guys, its nice to see genuine debate on this but could we keep it a bit more polite please?
> 
> I hit the bench for the first time last evening, i was just wondering, when people say they 'can bench xxx' are they including the weight of the bar in that? couldnt find anything on google except that the bar probably weighs about 40lbs ish


 
Yeah, the bar is 45LBS (usually) and is always counted in the total.
We insecure weightlifters need all the help we can get.


----------



## daemon barbeque (Oct 9, 2011)

My advices would be:

1) Learn the science about resting, tissue regeneration, nutrition, hormones and human anatomy.

2) Check crossfit.com It's somehow more modern and useful than typical fitness action

3) Run, or climb. Put your body weight on your legs instead of machines. Better power/endurance ratio.

4)Learn your own metabolism. When you feel active, when you need rest and your heart and other organs reacting.

5)Forget about multi-vitamins. Check Gastro-Intestinal system and the absorbation of nutritious materials. You have o check the absorbation ratios, synergies and antagonism. That will also help you understand how to cook. If you need extra vitamins, get Seperate tablets or syrups.

6)Don't follow all the advice you get. You might not have enough money to get a heart or liver exchanged

7)Be cautious on Protein intake. Especially animal or cereal proteins. It may cause allergies or more serious problems like Multiple sclerosis or other auto-immune diseases.

8) Don't be too generous on Milk, since it works inflamatory. Some people get a weaker immune system and Heart through too much milk consumtion.


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 10, 2011)

Hey guys, thought id do some legs today so i hit the squats today for first time!

the 4th set really did me in, couldnt complete it, i made sure i was going pretty deep, kept the weight to 35kg inc bar, think this will take some work

Also, weighed myself in the changing rooms after, i think i must have the diets number of cals sorted somewhat as i have gone up 5lbs from the last time i weighed myself, which was like a month ago

Also, is it completely normal after doing a leg workout to be able to climb stairs no problem, but find it really hard to go down?


----------



## Winspear (Oct 10, 2011)

chimpinatux said:


> Also, is it completely normal after doing a leg workout to be able to climb stairs no problem, but find it really hard to go down?




Good job on the gains!


----------



## UnderTheSign (Oct 11, 2011)

My gym is at the 2nd floor of a building... After my first time full leg workout, they felt like jello walking down the stairs. Sounds good to me!


----------



## daemon barbeque (Oct 18, 2011)

Well done there. Keep it up and you will gain a lot very fast.
Legs are essential, sincethey are going to carry the extra weight. That means, you should not just do squads for the extra strength, but you should run, bike, climb stair or rope-jump for the stamina.


----------



## chimpinatux (Oct 25, 2011)

Couple of weeks later, update

weighed in today at 148 so theres something going on
my lifts are all going incrementally so thats good, but ive been working in dips and they have been astonishing. They have one of those dip assist machines that lets you offset some of your bodyweight and each time ive taken about 10kg off and done more reps


----------



## orakle (Oct 25, 2011)

MAKE IT HAPPEN !!!!

Personally, I don't recommend using someone else's program, just do exercises you feel work the best.

You should probably have a good read at nutritional, biological and anatomical books just so that you understand what you're doing to be confortable taking decisions on your own.

I'm studying medicine and bodybuilding as a hobby(mostly for aesthetics - have a look at Lazar Angelov if you wanna see my goal physique), the information I learn at uni is absolutely helping me, knowledge is power!

So yeah, go with your feelings when it comes to workout plan, and for the rest just grab a lot of infos and deal with that, best advice I can give !


----------



## jam3v (Oct 27, 2011)

Wingchunwarrior said:


> Yes thats right you should of read the thread.IIRC Harry is a member of BB.com and I'm pretty sure you could get most of the basic info from BB.com from him,so I don't see the point of the OP going over trawling through loads of threads on BB.com.



he doesn't need to "trawl" anything. All the best threads are stickied to the top of the various forums.

I'd rather get my information from the source then passed through 3 forums. But that's just me. *shrugs*


----------



## Stealthtastic (Oct 27, 2011)

I'm 5'8" and weigh 115 lbs, with 11% body fat
Is that bad??? hhaaha


----------



## Winspear (Oct 28, 2011)

guitar-rob89 said:


> I'm 5'8" and weigh 115 lbs, with 11% body fat
> Is that bad??? hhaaha



Jesus! Is that healthy?


----------



## Bevo (Oct 30, 2011)

Damn!
I am a runner doing close to 100K a week and at 5'8" I am 150lb, you need a cheesburger!!

This topic has reminded me that I really need to crosstrain instead of running all the time. I had a problem with a pasta sauce lid the other day that my 90lb girlfriend opened...yeah I will never hear the end of it.

What worked in the past for me was a 3 day a week system hitting the entire body but with big groups, not smaller exercises.
Should be fun!


----------



## daemon barbeque (Oct 30, 2011)

Bevo said:


> Damn!
> I am a runner doing close to 100K a week and at 5'8" I am 150lb, you need a cheesburger!!
> 
> This topic has reminded me that I really need to crosstrain instead of running all the time. I had a problem with a pasta sauce lid the other day that my 90lb girlfriend opened...yeah I will never hear the end of it.
> ...



It sounds more like you need some glicogen 
Give yourself 13 days off from "100k", get 4 rest days and other days keep the cardio on minimum. Eat nice complex carbs. Begin with " a lot" and get the those smaller. When you hit the 13. day, you should eat your normal way. That will keep your body loaded for a while. Everytime you see you can't open a can, rinse and repeat


----------



## chimpinatux (Nov 3, 2011)

If anybody is still looking at this thread, il add some more updating

Currently at 151 lbs, which makes me wonder whether im going through serious beginner gains or slapping on a little more fat than is ideal considering thats about 10 lbs in a month

Ive pretty much gotten onto a vague diet schedule now which i would guess seems to be working if anyone else looking at gaining weight wants to look at whats working for me, if anyone has any extra recommendations that would be awesome too

Breakfast: Bowl or 2 of cheerios, bowl of oats with milk, an apple, and depending on how much of a rush im in either 2 whole eggs or a whey shake

later morning snack: banana, and a shake which is a blend of weight gainer (inc many carbs) and normal whey for vaguely 50/50 carbs/protein

Lunch: if im out, sandwich, if in, chicken and rice/pasta

usually chug down some milk in the afternoon

Early dinner: some kind of meat and pasta/rice

before bed: usually scrambled eggs


workouts are usually between the last 2 meals and i have snacks/shakes around there


----------



## SamSam (Nov 6, 2011)

You haven't mentioned your fats in your macro %. Fats are very important too. I'm slim but not skinny. I weigh 173 and am 5'11". I tend to go low 30/30/40 for carb/fats/protein with around 140g protein a day and up to 170g. Train weights and lift as heavy as you safely can. Stick to compound lift and good rest periods to allow your body to develop. I've lost around 10 pounds of fat and gained some muscle too. It's slow work but after trying different methods this one seems to be working great for me.


----------



## Andrew Hall (Nov 28, 2011)

I've been hitting the gym too. Before my workout was Bike 10 miles, run 3.5 miles ( maybe more on either) then...... the shake weight which does work, but I need more resistance.


----------



## chimpinatux (Nov 28, 2011)

Just remembered this thread, il update

Considering i have been doing this for about 7-8 weeks now, ive made some progress, wondering if some of the guys who know could rate it

I now weigh in at 158 lbs, my bodyfat i am unsure about but from scanning through some guess threads on bodybuilding forums id estimate myself at about 17%, possibly less but id rather not be generous to myself

best stats from this last week:

Bench - 120 x 8
Squat - 135 x 8
Deadlift - 210 x 3
OH - 77 x 6

So hows a novice doing?
Id like to post some before/after pics but despite bringing my camera and phone to college i brought no cables *facepalm*


----------



## Captain Shoggoth (Nov 28, 2011)

chimpinatux said:


> Just remembered this thread, il update
> 
> Considering i have been doing this for about 7-8 weeks now, ive made some progress, wondering if some of the guys who know could rate it
> 
> ...



Are those just one set of those amounts of reps?
That said, solid stuff for 7-8 weeks dude!


----------



## chimpinatux (Nov 28, 2011)

Captain Shoggoth said:


> Are those just one set of those amounts of reps?
> That said, solid stuff for 7-8 weeks dude!



No i usually do 3-4 sets of each, with the 4th usually failing halfway through if not before

Thanks man its good to hear positive i dont have too much to compare myself too as the on/off training partners i have here are, inconsistent to say the least


----------



## Harry (Nov 29, 2011)

chimpinatux said:


> Just remembered this thread, il update
> 
> Considering i have been doing this for about 7-8 weeks now, ive made some progress, wondering if some of the guys who know could rate it
> 
> ...



Not bad.
What other exercises are you doing?


----------



## chimpinatux (Nov 29, 2011)

Harry said:


> Not bad.
> What other exercises are you doing?



Thanks man

Ive also been doing Pullups/chins, barbell rows, Dips, shoulder raises(front, side and bent over), shrugs, some curls, pushups


----------



## jymellis (Dec 31, 2011)

Wingchunwarrior said:


> Yeah but you wanna take all the advice with a grain of salt as we don't have pictures of ourselves therefore none of us could know anything about weightlifting and nutrtion


actually i did on the first page, and im the oldest guy in the thread


----------



## chimpinatux (Jan 6, 2012)

Forgot about this thread

I just took a couple of weeks off due to going home for christmas, but im going to be back to college tomorrow so have access to the gym again

Ive been thinking about doing a Starting Strength style routine for a bit to see how i like it and if i get anything out of it
Good idea or no?


----------



## Bron martin (Jan 12, 2012)

I have had awesome results lately from a super high protein, low calorie,low sugar diet.


----------



## Kalan (Jan 15, 2012)

chimpinatux said:


> Forgot about this thread
> 
> I just took a couple of weeks off due to going home for christmas, but im going to be back to college tomorrow so have access to the gym again
> 
> ...



Always a good idea! Just make sure your progressing each week other wise change your diet or intensity


----------



## murakami (Jan 20, 2012)

Wingchunwarrior said:


> Ok this is a long read and basically it's a copy and paste of some advice I gave to Mikeh and Fun111 on here and as you can see its a humungous post and don't really feel like typing it out every time Like I said its a copy and paste so some of the stuff you may have already addressed.
> 
> I would start off with a push/pull/leg split.I don't see any problem with you starting with a split especially seeing as you have already done weights in the past.
> 
> ...



really great post, but i have to really disagree with the deadlifts for a beginner. if you have proper form, then deadlifts can be an amazing exercise
that can strengthen your entire body and also help with back problems.

but if your form is shit, then you can really fuck up your back so it's kind of a dangerous exercise to do. i encourage getting someone to teach you the form properly before doing this(to the original poster)


----------



## Captain Shoggoth (Jan 20, 2012)

Anyone into powerlifting, I'm training/being trained by Arram Eghoyan (
 
http://www.guardian-series.co.uk/news/1900219.powerlifter_arram_sets_world_record/ )

The regime I'm on is ten kinds of awesome, stuff in bold is mandatory, the other stuff I've put in myself.

Monday:

*Overhead squat-5x5
Deadlifts-1x5
Strict overhead press-5x5
*Renegade rows-3x5 (5 each arm)

Wednesday:

*Front squat-5x5
Overhead push press-5x5
Inverted rows-3x progressively increasing amount (currently 20)
*Regular and side planks-one of each, currently about 75 secs

Friday:

Chinups-3x progressively increasing amount (currently 5, I'm weak on chinups)
*Back squat-5x5
Squat+jerk-5x5*
*Bench press-5x5
*Renegade rows-3x5 (5 each arm)

You're only doing the big lifts once a week, so increase them by 2.5 kg per week if you're going steadily. Feels good.


----------



## Captain Shoggoth (Jan 25, 2012)

^that should be training with/being trained by, good god I couldn't train him


----------



## mattofvengeance (Jan 25, 2012)

Love powerlifting. I lean more towards the bodybuilding aspect, but I find myself drifting more towards the powerlifting section of bb.com and lurking there. I grew up an athlete and lifted weights off and on throughout high school and some after, but it never really clicked with me then, and I would give it up. This past April, I started working out with a couple friends from high school, one who became a personal trainer, and now I'm in love with it. Bulked from around 220 to 245 (I'm 6'6) in 5/6 months, which is where I am now, and I'm in the process of starting a cut to be rid of this gut I've had the last couple years.

Anyhow, my split looks like:
Chest
Back
Legs
Shoulders/Traps
Biceps/Triceps

with some abs sprinkled in every few days


----------



## chimpinatux (Jan 28, 2012)

OP here

I've been doing a workout based on starting strength but with some mods (yeah i know many people suggest against adding/taking exercises from it but im still progressing so its doing something)

Workout A:

Squat
Bench
Powercleans
Weighted Dips
Crunches

Workout B:
OH Press
Barbell Rows
Pullups
Deadlifts

Is going well so far
As an interesting note, originally i was fitting size small shirts
Am now starting to get tight around the armpits in mediums, hell yeah


----------



## SamSam (Jan 29, 2012)

I read an article a while ago that basically said, every body has a different limit to how much muscle it can build in a week. Any calories over that limit will simply become fat. If you feel you are gaining a bit too much fat on top of your new muscles. Try lowering your intake by maybe 200 cals and see how you develope over a few weeks.


----------

