# Line 6 Helix Native. DAW plugins.



## Mike

Finally a replacement for pod farm, or so it seems.

http://line6.com/helix/helixnative.html

Not a whole bunch of info yet, but looks promising.


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## Mathemagician

It's already in the helix thread.


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## Mike

Mathemagician said:


> It's already in the helix thread.



Okay? So because you mentioned some months back in the middle of a thread, it now can't ever have it's own thread dedicated to the topic?

It is a separate product altogether from the Helix line and pretains more to studio related use. On top of that most anyone who doesn't own a Helix nor is considering buying one would not have seen the mention of Native. So I think this thread might be helpful for others like myself who were unaware of it for one reason or another


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## Carl Kolchak

Anyone have an idea what the pricing is going to be?


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## Mike

Carl Kolchak said:


> Anyone have an idea what the pricing is going to be?





> *What does Helix Native cost?*
> Helix Native sells for $399 USD. However, to hammer home the whole studio-to-stage thing, we’re offering a discount to registered Helix and Helix Rack owners; they can purchase Helix Native for $99. Existing POD Farm customers are eligible for certain discounts as well (TBD).


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## Mathemagician

Mike said:


> Okay? So because you mentioned some months back in the middle of a thread, it now can't ever have it's own thread dedicated to the topic?
> 
> It is a separate product altogether from the Helix line and pretains more to studio related use. On top of that most anyone who doesn't own a Helix nor is considering buying one would not have seen the mention of Native. So I think this thread might be helpful for others like myself who were unaware of it for one reason or another



It's literally the exact same product. It's just a VST instead of hardware. All settings/amps/effects are identical to the 3 hardware versions. 

It doesn't really make sense to have a separate thread to split discussions on the same system. No need to get defensive.


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## schwiz

This thing has been hyped for over a year now. But the release is still TBD. IMO this will just be another BIAS or AmpliTube, however, I shall reserve my judgments until its released.


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## bpprox22

Mathemagician said:


> It's literally the exact same product. It's just a VST instead of hardware. All settings/amps/effects are identical to the 3 hardware versions.
> 
> It doesn't really make sense to have a separate thread to split discussions on the same system. No need to get defensive.



I disagree. In my mind, I consider this a completely separate product -- regardless of the underlying system being the "same". I have never considered purchasing the Helix hardware but could get behind the VST.

I don't see why we shouldn't have a dedicated thread to discuss the VST? 

To Mikes point, I wouldn't have heard about this since I have never read through the (hardware) Helix thread because I don't own the Helix. Now I have something to keep my eye on.


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## NosralTserrof

Arguments aside, it's gonna be cool to actually test out the Helix sounds in a DAW format. I'm sure with a low latency interface like an Apollo Twin, it'll be a cheaper and more efficient solution for just studio dudes.


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## FireInside

bpprox22 said:


> To Mikes point, I wouldn't have heard about this since I have never read through the (hardware) Helix thread because I don't own the Helix. Now I have something to keep my eye on.



This. I don't see what the big deal is about informing everyone in a new thread. 

Anyway, the only way I'd entertain this is if the discount to existing pod farm owners is worth while. I definitely wouldn't drop $400 for a plugin but that's just me.


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## NosralTserrof

FireInside said:


> This. I don't see what the big deal is about informing everyone in a new thread.
> 
> Anyway, the only way I'd entertain this is if the discount to existing pod farm owners is worth while. I definitely wouldn't drop $400 for a plugin but that's just me.



Yeah, I'm really hoping there's a demo version available.


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## Ericjutsu

NosralTserrof said:


> Yeah, I'm really hoping there's a demo version available.


There will be


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## bpprox22

*The latest update that I could find:*

A Line 6 staff member posted this on their forum on August 10th, 2017:


> As of yesterday, we have the non-lettered (customer-facing release) 1.00 build. We're letting it soak for a few more days just in case. If all goes well, and I _had_ to guess, you'll see it sometime next week.


_Reference: http://line6.com/support/topic/25217-helix-native/?p=224053_

Also, here is the manual (System Requirements are on page 3):
http://line6.com/support/manuals/helix-native


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## schwiz

Reading the manual has actually got me excited about this. I'm definitely going to demo this if they give us the option.


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## bpprox22

It would've been nice to get into the beta test group but I'm looking forward to a demo regardless!


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## brutalwizard

Its out


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## MrYakob

15 day demo seems like more than enough to make a decision, I'll have to pop that when I know I'll have a lot of guitar playing time. 

Was leaning towards an LT but this may be enough for me.


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## bpprox22

*Prices:*
$399.99 - bought outright
$349.99 - Upgrade from POD Farm (12.5% discount)
$299.99 - Upgrade from POD Farm Platinum (25% discount)
$299.99 - With registered Helix LT (25% discount)
$99.99 - With registered Helix Floor/Rack (75% discount)


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## oc616

That's twice I've tried to download the demo and their damn site won't even load! Obviously it was popular then.


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## Sacha

I made a clip of it https://soundcloud.com/alansachalaskow/illusorian-line-6-helix-native-clip


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## Steinmetzify

Sounds pretty brutal man.


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## Steinmetzify

Sounds pretty brutal man.


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## oc616

Managed to grab it. Straight away the models have the same old hissy digital vibe that requires work the TH3 plugin just doesn't. Here's a clip for comparison, TBH it just sounds like the POD HD I'm already trying to sell in terms of modelling quality (this was honestly the best I could get after 3 hours or so of tweaks and a couple of preset dissections from online).

https://soundcloud.com/amostagreeablesloth/th3-vs-helix-demo-1


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## Durero

Sacha said:


> I made a clip of it https://soundcloud.com/alansachalaskow/illusorian-line-6-helix-native-clip


That's fantastic!

Line6 needs your clip on their site.


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## Metropolis

oc616 said:


> Managed to grab it. Straight away the models have the same old hissy digital vibe that requires work the TH3 plugin just doesn't. Here's a clip for comparison, TBH it just sounds like the POD HD I'm already trying to sell in terms of modelling quality (this was honestly the best I could get after 3 hours or so of tweaks and a couple of preset dissections from online).
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/amostagreeablesloth/th3-vs-helix-demo-1



I grabbed the demo too. There is something oddly grainy and hissy in Helix's modeling that cannot be dialed out easily, really don't know what it is. TH3 definetly doesn't have that, and it sounds much better at least here. Btw, which amp models you used in these clips?


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## Steinmetzify

Grabbed it. Don't like it.

I bought an AxeFx last year and lost 12 hours playing, out of the box.

If I bought a Helix and it sounded like this when I plugged it in it'd get returned immediately.

I've been disparaging of L6 products in the past and I'm sure that could come up, but I wanted to like this plugin. As it is I've just saved $400.


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## oc616

Metropolis said:


> I grabbed the demo too. There is something oddly grainy and hissy in Helix's modeling that cannot be dialed out easily, really don't know what it is. TH3 definetly doesn't have that, and it sounds much better at least here. Btw, which amp models you used in these clips?



Dual Rec in TH3, the Archetype in Helix (think its a PRS Archon?). The Dual Rec in Helix sounded far too rock orientated and boomy, even with extensive EQ. Put it this way, the signal chain for each is as follows...

TH3: Gate>Dist>EQ>Amp>Cab>EQ

Helix: (Has input gate) EQ>Comp>Dist>EQ>Amp-split into Cab 1 and 2>EQ>Volume

The EQ's themselves are a lot more involved as well due to the amount of undesired sounds. If I was to put my finger on it, the TH3 models have next to no high gain hiss unless you really push them, whereas the Helix distortion models have far less low end unless pushed, with very untamed highs and clumsy presence functions. Pretty much all of the Line 6-named amp models in the lower options sounded like each other too. Money saved, glad for the demo.

EDIT: I'd also like to add how awful I find the UI by comparison.


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## Metropolis

But... no one should use Helix cab models, they're just plain garbage for hi-gain sounds. In TH3 their own cabs are decent, but little bit too boomy for my taste.


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## oc616

Metropolis said:


> But... no one should use Helix cab models, they're just plain garbage for hi-gain sounds. In TH3 their own cabs are decent, but little bit too boomy for my taste.



All the less reason to drop $400 on it then.


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## CerealKiller

Tried the demo out for a few hours. It's not immediately awesome... The intention was to get this as a backup, for when my AX8 is not at home, but I'm not spending $400 on this. The plugin is pretty and all, but that's about it for me.


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## Metropolis

oc616 said:


> All the less reason to drop $400 on it then.



Yeah  I just really wanted to like this... never had experience with Helix modeling before, wonder how different the hardware versions feel and sound, if at all. Even the effects suck somehow, they lack deepness and overall good sound. And this comes from someone who has used three different kind of Pod HD-series units before.



CerealKiller said:


> Tried the demo out for a few hours. It's not immediately awesome... The intention was to get this as a backup, for when my AX8 is not at home, but I'm not spending $400 on this. The plugin is pretty and all, but that's about it for me.



Just spend 199€ on Overloud TH3, it's solid.


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## schwiz

Tried the demo last night and couldn't jive with it. Even using OwnHammer impulses with their amp modelers produced a hiss in the tone and overall it was just thin and fake sounding. There's no way I'm dropping $400 on this; I'm sticking with my Axe Fx II.


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## Shask

The initial reactions have been interesting. I have been seeing a ton of people not liking Helix Native for heavy music. I have been curious about the Helix, and this makes me wonder if people love it more for the touch screen than the sound.

I am surprised to see so many TH3 mentions also. That is also another plugin I dont hear much about for metal sounds. Has it improved, or has people just started to catch on?


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## oc616

Shask said:


> The initial reactions have been interesting. I have been seeing a ton of people not liking Helix Native for heavy music. I have been curious about the Helix, and this makes me wonder if people love it more for the touch screen than the sound.
> 
> I am surprised to see so many TH3 mentions also. That is also another plugin I dont hear much about for metal sounds. Has it improved, or has people just started to catch on?



I heard about it through Johnny (he pops around here sometimes) of ForTiori. Tried the 2 week demo and it just sounded perfect right out of the box, very little needed in the way of tweaks. I don't think Overloud really marketed themselves like Positive Grid or Fractal did with metalheads as their "core" audience, so that might be to do with its seeming lack of popularity.


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## Metropolis

Shask said:


> The initial reactions have been interesting. I have been seeing a ton of people not liking Helix Native for heavy music. I have been curious about the Helix, and this makes me wonder if people love it more for the touch screen than the sound.
> 
> I am surprised to see so many TH3 mentions also. That is also another plugin I dont hear much about for metal sounds. Has it improved, or has people just started to catch on?



Helix doesn't have touch screen, the Headrush Pedalboard is only unit in the market which has it.

TH3 has been mentioned in many forums and youtube by users who found it to be a really good software. Company's marketing strategy is something that doesn't really stand out in anywhere, so commercializing their products is very minimal.

Some threads about TH3 in ss.org if you want to find out something or discuss:
http://sevenstring.org/threads/lets-talk-guitar-vsts-good-bad-ugly.320301/page-5#post-4758611
http://sevenstring.org/threads/overloud-th3.313684/page-2#post-4713359
http://sevenstring.org/threads/pc-amp-sims-that-rivals-axefx-kemper.319401/#post-4705539
http://sevenstring.org/threads/revalver-4-or-th3.318085/#post-4686090
http://sevenstring.org/threads/overloud-th3-metal.317727/
http://sevenstring.org/threads/do-any-vsts-hold-a-candle-to-the-ax-fx.315880/#post-4655616


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## Shask

Metropolis said:


> Helix doesn't have touch screen, the Headrush Pedalboard is only unit in the market which has it.
> 
> TH3 has been mentioned in many forums and youtube by users who found it to be a really good software. Company's marketing strategy is something that doesn't really stand out in anywhere, so commercializing their products is very minimal.
> 
> Some threads about TH3 in ss.org if you want to find out something or discuss:
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/lets-talk-guitar-vsts-good-bad-ugly.320301/page-5#post-4758611
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/overloud-th3.313684/page-2#post-4713359
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/pc-amp-sims-that-rivals-axefx-kemper.319401/#post-4705539
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/revalver-4-or-th3.318085/#post-4686090
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/overloud-th3-metal.317727/
> http://sevenstring.org/threads/do-any-vsts-hold-a-candle-to-the-ax-fx.315880/#post-4655616



Touchscreen, big shiny colorful screen..... it is all the same to me 

I have seen TH3 mentioned some on this board, but it does not come up as commonly as some programs, such as the TSEX50.


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## Genome

Tried it last night, my initial reactions were poor (and that's with Ownhammer IR's). Not huge on the GUI. After an hour or two of tweaking, I got it to sound quite nice. I thought the Fireball sim was really good. Disappointed in the Mesa sims. I doubt I'll be spending £300+ on it. 

It's meant to sound exactly the same as the hardware units, right? If so, my initial reaction is that the Axe-FX is easily better.


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## bpprox22

Also tried it last night. I didn't get to spend too much time with it but overall it's not for me. I liked some of the Factory preset clean tones (after some tweaking). The dirty tones were underwhelming. I don't know if it was just me but the Hard Gate was acting all kinds of funky when I was playing with the settings.

I'll probably spend a little more time playing with it but I won't be buying.


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## oc616

Damn does this ever look like a swing and a miss.


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## fairness

I'm just repeating what i said on another forum:
If you don't have a hardware Helix, i personally see no point in getting it.

They put the same restrictions that the hardware Helix has into the software. Meaning limited number of amps, cabs, IRs. I guess they did this so you can easily copy your Hx Native presets onto the Helix but there should at least be an option to disable these restrictions.
The GUI makes sense when you use it on the unit but with mouse and keyboard it is just a silly GUI concept.
Lot's of missing options.

I found that it can be made to sound good, mostly if you are using 3rd party IRs but IMO it is not better than TH3/S-Gear/etc.
Some good amps and effects and some bad amps and effects.

Overloud TH3 is currently at 170$ and S-Gear 2.7 at 130$ meaning you could buy both and still have 100$ left.
Considering that, i see no reason to buy Helix Native in its current state and price.


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## Ericjutsu

fairness said:


> I'm just repeating what i said on another forum:
> If you don't have a hardware Helix, i personally see no point in getting it.
> 
> They put the same restrictions that the hardware Helix has into the software. Meaning limited number of amps, cabs, IRs. I guess they did this so you can easily copy your Hx Native presets onto the Helix but there should at least be an option to disable these restrictions.
> The GUI makes sense when you use it on the unit but with mouse and keyboard it is just a silly GUI concept.
> Lot's of missing options.
> 
> I found that it can be made to sound good, mostly if you are using 3rd party IRs but IMO it is not better than TH3/S-Gear/etc.
> Some good amps and effects and some bad amps and effects.
> 
> Overloud TH3 is currently at 170$ and S-Gear 2.7 at 130$ meaning you could buy both and still have 100$ left.
> Considering that, i see no reason to buy Helix Native in its current state and price.



I think Native sounds really good. Better than TSE X50, Thermionik, BIAS, and a few freeware ampsims. I agree about the silly GUI and having restrictions for no reason other than that's how it is on the hardware unit. There should be a setting to release those restrictions. Line 6 has said they are thinking about doing just that though. In its current state, it's hard to recommend Native to those who have to pay full price for it. Once Line 6 gets it sorted out more and make it less restrictive, I feel it'll be worth the full price. Since I own a Helix, my price is only 99 USD which is very reasonable.


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## trem licking

overloud has been ahead of the game since TH2, which still sounds fantastic... and dare i say i like TH2 interface a little better than TH3. That being said, TH3 is in the lead for me for sound and ease of interface


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## fairness

Ericjutsu said:


> Better than TSE X50, Thermionik, BIAS, and a few freeware ampsims.


Never liked Bias.... I know a lot of people like it but it just didn't seem to produce sounds that 100% i like. Always felt like i can get close but something always felt off.



Ericjutsu said:


> Line 6 has said they are thinking about doing just that though.


That's good to hear, they should really do that.



Ericjutsu said:


> Since I own a Helix, my price is only 99 USD which is very reasonable.


I agree, if someone owns a Helix the 99$ is a no brainer. And i believe that it was more the intention of them to give another tool to Helix owners. But it's at version 1.0, the future will tell.


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## Metropolis

Ericjutsu said:


> I think Native sounds really good.



This is subjective, but some of us might disagree


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## Ericjutsu

Metropolis said:


> This is subjective, but some of us might disagree


Didn't you pick Helix in a comparison video as one of your favorite tones in it?


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## Metropolis

Ericjutsu said:


> Didn't you pick Helix in a comparison video as one of your favorite tones in it?



Yes, but this shows again how some things don't work with other people's setups and equipment. Or they don't fancy feel and sound of certain things in real life, only in the sound clips. I've seen people sell Helix and get something else or vice versa.


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## oc616

There's a reason I didn't overdo the example I put up. Compared to the fully produced and realised song Sacha did using Helix. You could tell me that was BIAS, TH3, Axe FX 2, hell even a real amp and I'd probably take you on your word. There's a world of difference when trying the real thing vs Jared Dines/Gear Gods latest "out of the box demo".


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## bpprox22

oc616 said:


> There's a world of difference when trying the real thing vs Jared Dines/Gear Gods latest "out of the box demo".


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## UltimaWeapon

I was considering to re-buy an Axe Fx again but the Helix prices went down here (the LT is just 830 and the floor helix is 1130) and i was really excited to try out this native version.
But i wasnt blown away sadly. It sounds okay and i would be probably happy with all the options and the possibilities, but does it really sound the same on the floor/rack units?


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## Handbanana

UltimaWeapon said:


> I was considering to re-buy an Axe Fx again but the Helix prices went down here (the LT is just 830 and the floor helix is 1130) and i was really excited to try out this native version.
> But i wasnt blown away sadly. It sounds okay and i would be probably happy with all the options and the possibilities, but does it really sound the same on the floor/rack units?



Yeah I'm curious to see how it sounds to the Helix.


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## mikah912

Ericjutsu said:


> I think Native sounds really good. Better than TSE X50, Thermionik, BIAS, and a few freeware ampsims. I agree about the silly GUI and having restrictions for no reason other than that's how it is on the hardware unit. There should be a setting to release those restrictions. Line 6 has said they are thinking about doing just that though. In its current state, it's hard to recommend Native to those who have to pay full price for it. Once Line 6 gets it sorted out more and make it less restrictive, I feel it'll be worth the full price. Since I own a Helix, my price is only 99 USD which is very reasonable.



Pretty much where I am. Line 6 has now said they're definitely releasing the restrictions at some point in the near future which would have the plugin make waaaaaaaaay more sense to non-Helix owners. Also, the IR management and drag-and-drop functionality needs to be improved.

That being said, it sounds great, is efficient on resources and has pretty good default cabs. Not only do I have most of the software suites out there right now to A/B it against, but I've had an AX8 twice. Helix - both the hardware and now Native - ranks with all of them. You don't need 50 EQs. Just use the the high and low cut on the cab block.


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## oc616

I've just whipped up a quick comparison of the amps as they are without being dialled or mixed with other instruments. The signal chain for the riff was an RG8>Audio Interface>Tube Screamer>Amp Model>Mesa 4x12 Cab with an SM57. There is no EQ, no reverb, no hard gating or any difference in mic'ing. Just the amp models as they are once selected/dropped into the chain. This is as out-of-the-box as it gets.

The order is as follows:

1. TH3 Dual Rec
2. Helix Dual Rec
3. TH3 5150
4. Helix 5150
5. TH3 Fireball
6. Helix Fireball

https://soundcloud.com/amostagreeablesloth/th3-vs-helix-3-amp-test

Whatever conclusion you come to, that Helix Dual Rec sounds tragic. The Fireball sounds like the best high gain model it has to my ears.


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## fairness

I liked Helix Native a lot more on the second day, even used the stock cabs.
Had a lot of fun jamming with the Archetype amp (I guess PRS Archon?) yesterday.
Definitely some good sounding stuff in that software but i just can't get over the GUI, restrictions and most of all the price tag.
At this point i don't think they should just get rid of the restrictions but they should rebuild the whole GUI too.


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## Metropolis

Helix Native's fizzy and grainy boxiness can be dialed out with lowering master volume in amp block, and playing with deep edit functions, but it's still there, awful.


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## Ericjutsu

Sacha said:


> I made a clip of it https://soundcloud.com/alansachalaskow/illusorian-line-6-helix-native-clip


Did you edit the guitars? If so, how do you do it? I really like your mix.


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## schwiz

oc616 said:


> Whatever conclusion you come to, that Helix Dual Rec sounds tragic.



Wow, thank you for doing this. Based on this alone I'm buying TH3 now... that 5150 was legit sounding. I was incredibly disappointed with all 3 of the Native amps in this shootout. They were all fizzy, thin and grainy (and not in a good way).


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## mikah912

I didn't feel the comparisons in this thread thus far reflected the sounds I got out of Native at all.

So I made my own with stock cabs. Details on the SoundCloud page:

https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/native-high-gain-shootout-stock-cabs


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## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> I didn't feel the comparisons in this thread thus far reflected the sounds I got out of Native at all.
> 
> So I made my own with stock cabs. Details on the SoundCloud page:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/native-high-gain-shootout-stock-cabs



Same kind of thin and grainy fizzyness to me


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## Ericjutsu

Here is a comparison of a 5150 using Native, Thermionik and TSE X50. I used the same IR, which is an Ownhammer Mesa cab from the Justin York Collection

https://soundcloud.com/ericjutsu/sets/helix-native-5150-comparison


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## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> Same kind of thin and grainy fizzyness to me



You think my Recto clip sounded anything like oc616's?

Hooookay.... might be time to get the hearing checked, sir.


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## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> You think my Recto clip sounded anything like oc616's?
> 
> Hooookay.... might be time to get the hearing checked, sir.



Not at all, what I meant was that there is same kind of annoying quality, which Helix still has. Just a matter of taste maybe.


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## oc616

The differences I hear just sound like better guitar/pickup quality and tuning choices to me. The base tone isn't worlds different.


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## Ericjutsu

What about my tone comparison?


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## Ericjutsu

mikah912 said:


> I didn't feel the comparisons in this thread thus far reflected the sounds I got out of Native at all.
> 
> So I made my own with stock cabs. Details on the SoundCloud page:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/native-high-gain-shootout-stock-cabs


Sounds cool. Maybe try double tracking and panning hard L and R next time?


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## Metropolis

Ericjutsu said:


> What about my tone comparison?



It was okay, better than previous raw comparisons seen here. TSEX50 sounded like I was expecting it to sound, all of three were pretty close to each other. Also I have tested Thermionik trial version while ago, and it was good at amp modeling.

Glenn Fricker is going to test Helix Native... we'll see how it comes. And let the amp-plugin wars begin.


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## Ericjutsu

Metropolis said:


> It was okay, better than previous raw comparisons seen here. TSEX50 sounded like I was expecting it to sound, all of three were pretty close to each other. Also I have tested Thermionik trial version while ago, and it was good at amp modeling.
> 
> Glenn Fricker is going to test Helix Native... we'll see how it comes. And let the amp-plugin wars begin.


I agree with your assessment of my tone tests lol. I'll have to do another and try harder to get a better tone instead of just trying to make them sound similar.
The TSE X50 is cool but it has that mid bump at around 900 hz that I never can quite dial out all the way.
Curious to hear his thoughts. He probably won't like it I'm guessing unless he uses IRs. What kind of tones do you like? What are some examples of a guitar tone you love?


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## schwiz

Why would you want to dial out that 900hz? Strictly from a mixing perspective, I've had the absolute best luck with TSE X50. Right out of the gate its pretty much mix ready. It doesn't dominate the upper mids and high end and always seems to gel nicely with the bass in a mix while still allowing vocals to shine through. What I find really odd is that Revalver has been absolute junk for me as far as mix ready tone goes... and its made by Peavey!

Anyways, my initial thoughts on the Native plugin are that the amps are not necessarily "mix ready" because that's not really what the premise of the tool is for. Also, as heard in this thread, the sims are scratchy and thin.

Would anyone be interested in any other comparisons in a normal mix (drums, bass, guitar) ? Revalver? AmpliTube? TSE? AxeFx? vs. Native?


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## Metropolis

Ericjutsu said:


> What kind of tones do you like? What are some examples of a guitar tone you love?



Mostly quite modern type of stuff... Devin Townsend, Dream Theater etc. Something in 5150, Dual Rectifier, MKII - V, or heavier sounding Engl's ballpark. Ambient cleans, mid gain crunch with splitted coils, djenty type of tones, even if I'm not the djentiest type of player. Very usual things seen in here. In top of that some death or black metal. But the tones have to be cutting enough, it's hard to describe.


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## oc616

I personally like the djent dynamic, but I'm less of a fan of the hyper-polished stuff like Born of Osiris or Veil of Maya. I like the hardcore/grindy tones of early Red Seas Fire, Meshuggah and Josh Travis more, nice and loose sounding.


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## mikah912

I think a lot of the sonic qualities people are sniping on are in the stock cab models, not the amp models. To prove it, here is a shootout with the amps double tracked in a mix with three different IR makers: Sinmix, Ownhammer and Line 6 Allure:

https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/native-third-party-cabs-high-gain

Second, here's a similar joint I did, but with my Helix floor (not Native):

https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/helixzilla-amp-model-blends


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## Ericjutsu

Metropolis said:


> Mostly quite modern type of stuff... Devin Townsend, Dream Theater etc. Something in 5150, Dual Rectifier, MKII - V, or heavier sounding Engl's ballpark. Ambient cleans, mid gain crunch with splitted coils, djenty type of tones, even if I'm not the djentiest type of player. Very usual things seen in here. In top of that some death or black metal. But the tones have to be cutting enough, it's hard to describe.


Me too. I love DTP


----------



## brutalwizard

I am digging it lol. I went straight for ir's i already love and its treated me great so far. I use a pc rig now anyways and love L6 so this was a natural progression for me.


----------



## Ericjutsu

schwiz said:


> Why would you want to dial out that 900hz? Strictly from a mixing perspective, I've had the absolute best luck with TSE X50. Right out of the gate its pretty much mix ready. It doesn't dominate the upper mids and high end and always seems to gel nicely with the bass in a mix while still allowing vocals to shine through. What I find really odd is that Revalver has been absolute junk for me as far as mix ready tone goes... and its made by Peavey!
> 
> Anyways, my initial thoughts on the Native plugin are that the amps are not necessarily "mix ready" because that's not really what the premise of the tool is for. Also, as heard in this thread, the sims are scratchy and thin.
> 
> Would anyone be interested in any other comparisons in a normal mix (drums, bass, guitar) ? Revalver? AmpliTube? TSE? AxeFx? vs. Native?





schwiz said:


> Why would you want to dial out that 900hz? Strictly from a mixing perspective, I've had the absolute best luck with TSE X50. Right out of the gate its pretty much mix ready. It doesn't dominate the upper mids and high end and always seems to gel nicely with the bass in a mix while still allowing vocals to shine through. What I find really odd is that Revalver has been absolute junk for me as far as mix ready tone goes... and its made by Peavey!
> 
> Anyways, my initial thoughts on the Native plugin are that the amps are not necessarily "mix ready" because that's not really what the premise of the tool is for. Also, as heard in this thread, the sims are scratchy and thin.
> 
> Would anyone be interested in any other comparisons in a normal mix (drums, bass, guitar) ? Revalver? AmpliTube? TSE? AxeFx? vs. Native?



The frequency is too overbearing and it has this 'plastic' sound that doesn't really appeal to me.


----------



## Ericjutsu

Metropolis said:


> Mostly quite modern type of stuff... Devin Townsend, Dream Theater etc. Something in 5150, Dual Rectifier, MKII - V, or heavier sounding Engl's ballpark. Ambient cleans, mid gain crunch with splitted coils, djenty type of tones, even if I'm not the djentiest type of player. Very usual things seen in here. In top of that some death or black metal. But the tones have to be cutting enough, it's hard to describe.


What IRs do you like?


----------



## Metropolis

Ericjutsu said:


> What IRs do you like?



I have tried all the possible free ones like Catharsis, Guitarhack and God's Cab and those were quite usable. And everything from TSE X50 2.4. Then I bought some Mesa, Engl and Bogner cabs from 3sigma, Rosen Digital, Redwirez and Ownhammer.

My current favourites for metal are from Ownhammer Oversized Rectifier V5 with Celestion V70 speakers. Exactly this one: https://www.ownhammer.com/store/ind...id=390&zenid=c90c3904a89f38c0eef17b2b29726cc6

Good thing is that those clips are played with Helix.


----------



## Ericjutsu

Metropolis said:


> I have tried all the possible free ones like Catharsis, Guitarhack and God's Cab and those were quite usable. And everything from TSE X50 2.4. Then I bought some Mesa, Engl and Bogner cabs from 3sigma, Rosen Digital, Redwirez and Ownhammer.
> 
> My current favourites for metal are from Ownhammer Oversized Rectifier V5 with Celestion V70 speakers. Exactly this one: https://www.ownhammer.com/store/ind...id=390&zenid=c90c3904a89f38c0eef17b2b29726cc6
> 
> Good thing is that those clips are played with Helix.


Cool. I have that IR already. What mic/mix are you using?


----------



## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> I have tried all the possible free ones like Catharsis, Guitarhack and God's Cab and those were quite usable. And everything from TSE X50 2.4. Then I bought some Mesa, Engl and Bogner cabs from 3sigma, Rosen Digital, Redwirez and Ownhammer.
> 
> My current favourites for metal are from Ownhammer Oversized Rectifier V5 with Celestion V70 speakers. Exactly this one: https://www.ownhammer.com/store/ind...id=390&zenid=c90c3904a89f38c0eef17b2b29726cc6
> 
> Good thing is that those clips are played with Helix.



I'd say to give the JST Zilla cabs a whirl too. I demo them with Helix here:

https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/helixzilla-amp-model-blends

You MIIIIIIIIIGHT want to wait a smidge, tho, because Ownhammer is dropping a new package with Zilla, EVH and Emperor cabs - supposedly by the end of the month.


----------



## Metropolis

Ericjutsu said:


> Cool. I have that IR already. What mic/mix are you using?



Usually something from bold, OH1 or OH1F mixes.



mikah912 said:


> I'd say to give the JST Zilla cabs a whirl too. I demo them with Helix here:
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/guitdemoson/helixzilla-amp-model-blends
> 
> You MIIIIIIIIIGHT want to wait a smidge, tho, because Ownhammer is dropping a new package with Zilla, EVH and Emperor cabs - supposedly by the end of the month.



I got JST Conquer All V1 a while ago, and there was not enough options in ir-files for that money. But it's just me and my setup.

New Ownhammer pack is gonna be awesome, it is supposedly called Heavy Hitters Vol. II.


----------



## Elric

TH3 sh*ts all over the Helix for hard rock and metal tones.


----------



## Drezik27

Elric said:


> TH3 sh*ts all over the Helix for hard rock and metal tones.



For those of you who have the hardware version, does it sound the exact same?


----------



## mikah912

Elric said:


> TH3 sh*ts all over the Helix for hard rock and metal tones.



Not. And I really like TH3. But no.


----------



## oc616

Have to say, I'm surprised Glenn liked the Helix. I'd like to hear more honest comparisons in these YouTube reviews rather than "in-mix" examples that don't reveal the weaknesses you can here when isolated.


----------



## Metropolis

oc616 said:


> Have to say, I'm surprised Glenn liked the Helix. I'd like to hear more honest comparisons in these YouTube reviews rather than "in-mix" examples that don't reveal the weaknesses you can here when isolated.



He also kind of "liked" Positive Grid's Bias FX, so... I hope there will be another video with real constructing criticizm. Or not, because he's not into modelers anyway. I'm just so disappointed in Helix, and even considered bying the hardware version for a long time.


----------



## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> He also kind of "liked" Positive Grid's Bias FX, so... I hope there will be another video with real constructing criticizm. Or not, because he's not into modelers anyway. I'm just so disappointed in Helix, and even considered bying the hardware version for a long time.



You should spend more time with it. Clearly, you can hear people in multiple genres getting great sounds with it. They're there. The opinion I had on Day 1 of having a Helix is nothing like the one I had on Day 10, which was nothing like the one I had 3 months later, and certainly not 2 years later.


----------



## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> You should spend more time with it. Clearly, you can hear people in multiple genres getting great sounds with it. They're there. The opinion I had on Day 1 of having a Helix is nothing like the one I had on Day 10, which was nothing like the one I had 3 months later, and certainly not 2 years later.



Yes they do, but mostly in a mix. Individually Helix Native's tones just don't cut it for me. Also I could spend next couple of weeks with it, but still not getting out what I want. 

Here's what I could get at this point, couple of quick generic riffs that came into my mind.
https://soundcloud.com/joni-hoelttae/overloud-th3-vs-helix-native

Both amps are Peavey 5150 equivalents of these softwares, no post eq, just low pass filter at 90Hz in both, di-box> audio interface> gate> tubescreamer> amp> IR.


----------



## capac

It's better than bias, but it's no axe fx.


----------



## oc616

Oh man, I remember BIAS. I remember having to gate the living hell out of that high gain for all the EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE I'd get on the demo version. Yeah, anything tops that.


----------



## Spaced Out Ace

I liked Bias and whatnot when they stuck to mobile apps. Ever since they started trying to do hardware and computer plugins, etc., it's been pretty lazy and updates usually cause more problems than they solve.


----------



## Metropolis

Native doesn't have any input or output settings, but level adjustment. That bugs me out little bit, because in hardware Helix's there is plenty of options to choose. When plugging straight into di-box and interface you don't have those. Plugin should have more intelligent input adjustment.

But it's not AxeFX or Kemper, any of these plugins aren't


----------



## mikah912

You guys putting Axe-Fx and Kemper on some untouchable pedestal are hilarious. I've had the AX8 twice. There's no magical unobtanium. It puts out what you put into it. There's nothing inherently superior to Helix. But if you want to believe that....have at it.


----------



## oc616

Nothing special about either base-sound wise, its the features like tone matching that help them out IMO. I still to this day hold TH3 > Axe FX Ultra, although by less of a margin than POD products.


----------



## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> You guys putting Axe-Fx and Kemper on some untouchable pedestal are hilarious. I've had the AX8 twice. There's no magical unobtanium. It puts out what you put into it. There's nothing inherently superior to Helix. But if you want to believe that....have at it.



There is a reason why so many metal players lean towards those. They are closer to real deal and especially Fractal has huge variety how they can be dialed in, tones are very much in control. I can't say same about Helix. Line 6 will only be a second tier modeler at this point, and it's a shame.


----------



## Drezik27

mikah912 said:


> You guys putting Axe-Fx and Kemper on some untouchable pedestal are hilarious. I've had the AX8 twice. There's no magical unobtanium. It puts out what you put into it. There's nothing inherently superior to Helix. But if you want to believe that....have at it.



I 100% agree that you get out what you put in. However, in my experience i think its a heck of a lot easier with the Axe compared to every other modeler that I've tried.


----------



## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> There is a reason why so many metal players lean towards those. They are closer to real deal and especially Fractal has huge variety how they can be dialed in, tones are very much in control. I can't say same about Helix. Line 6 will only be a second tier modeler at this point, and it's a shame.



Jeff Loomis is using a Helix as his complete live rig these days, and he previously was Kemper all the way. John Browne from Monuments...Helix. Chris Letchford from Scale the Summit was an official Fractal artist...now Helix. There are more. Not to mention it appears to be a pretty insane sales success with way wider distribution than Kemper or Fractal, so the idea of that being "second tier" is a joke. 

I also love the "huge variety" claims. Let's be honest...of the hundreds of Fractal amp models, the vast majority of metal players use what...5-10? 5150, Recto, EVH 5153, Friedman, FAS Modern, Das Metal......maybe with a little Mark IIC/Mark mixed in. Then, they stick an 808 in front and use some V30 cab IR. 

Wow....so exotic and unachievable. The variety in amp modelers these days isn't in the models. There are only so many distinct circuit paths that produce sufficient clipping to be considered "high gain". It's in the IRs. Why do you think every Fluff demo sounds the same? Or every Ola Englund demo sounds the same. Or anybody demoing gear? It's the IRs, and they all load them now.


----------



## mikah912

Drezik27 said:


> I 100% agree that you get out what you put in. However, in my experience i think its a heck of a lot easier with the Axe compared to every other modeler that I've tried.



That's cool. My experience is different. Gotta go with what works for you.


----------



## oc616

mikah912 said:


> Jeff Loomis is using a Helix as his complete live rig these days, and he previously was Kemper all the way. John Browne from Monuments...Helix. Chris Letchford from Scale the Summit was an official Fractal artist...now Helix. There are more. Not to mention it appears to be a pretty insane sales success with way wider distribution than Kemper or Fractal, so the idea of that being "second tier" is a joke.



Pretty flimsy argument when you bear in mind sponsor deals. Line 6 has the benefit of:

A) Years of advantage in brick and mortar stores, especially here in Europe where the Axe FX could only be imported to Germany for years. Their brand and niche is well defined amongst even less voracious musicians (see the range of their products vs Kemper or Fractal). 

B) Price being a better deal for bedroom musicians who maybe just want to practice or don't have $ to blow on FX pedals and fancy amps, which holds a lot of water when you see the sales of Spider models and POD units mostly go to men in their late 20's or older.


----------



## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> Jeff Loomis is using a Helix as his complete live rig these days, and he previously was Kemper all the way. John Browne from Monuments...Helix. Chris Letchford from Scale the Summit was an official Fractal artist...now Helix. There are more. Not to mention it appears to be a pretty insane sales success with way wider distribution than Kemper or Fractal, so the idea of that being "second tier" is a joke.
> 
> I also love the "huge variety" claims. Let's be honest...of the hundreds of Fractal amp models, the vast majority of metal players use what...5-10? 5150, Recto, EVH 5153, Friedman, FAS Modern, Das Metal......maybe with a little Mark IIC/Mark mixed in. Then, they stick an 808 in front and use some V30 cab IR.
> 
> Wow....so exotic and unachievable. The variety in amp modelers these days isn't in the models. There are only so many distinct circuit paths that produce sufficient clipping to be considered "high gain". It's in the IRs. Why do you think every Fluff demo sounds the same? Or every Ola Englund demo sounds the same. Or anybody demoing gear? It's the IRs, and they all load them now.



Jeff Loomis? When? Is there video or any other information about it, I'm intrested because he's one of my favourite players of all time. 

For that I mainly meant that the dialing good tones seems to be way easier, and there isn't nothing exotic about using traditional recipe of modern metal tones. There is just different nyances, that some people like more than others. Most of it comes from IR's, but thing about input settings and hardware has impact on those nyances. It is something I want to find out, so there's not any other solution than test it myself.


----------



## fairness

Axe 2 is better sounding than the Helix, in my opinion. With tweaking and 3rd party IRs aswell as without.
It doesn't matter if Jeff Loomis or someone else advertises for one brand or the other.

Still can't really gel with Helix Native. The GUI is just not timely anymore.... i would have to rename all my IRs to shorter names just to use it with Helix Native.
After using it a bit more i think there is some really strange stuff going on in the low-mid range with some drive models. Weird interaction, unreal saturation and stuff that one could almost call artifacts.


----------



## mikah912

Metropolis said:


> Jeff Loomis? When? Is there video or any other information about it, I'm intrested because he's one of my favourite players of all time.
> 
> For that I mainly meant that the dialing good tones seems to be way easier, and there isn't nothing exotic about using traditional recipe of modern metal tones. There is just different nyances, that some people like more than others. Most of it comes from IR's, but thing about input settings and hardware has impact on those nyances. It is something I want to find out, so there's not any other solution than test it myself.



Just search YouTube for "Arch Enemy Will to Power Tour Trailer".

As for the rest, no tone on any of these units is a fixed point. Adjusting the Sag and Bias controls on any Helix amp makes them respond and behave VERY differently. The IRs have way more impact on the finished tone, tho.


----------



## mikah912

oc616 said:


> Pretty flimsy argument when you bear in mind sponsor deals. Line 6 has the benefit of:
> 
> A) Years of advantage in brick and mortar stores, especially here in Europe where the Axe FX could only be imported to Germany for years. Their brand and niche is well defined amongst even less voracious musicians (see the range of their products vs Kemper or Fractal).
> 
> B) Price being a better deal for bedroom musicians who maybe just want to practice or don't have $ to blow on FX pedals and fancy amps, which holds a lot of water when you see the sales of Spider models and POD units mostly go to men in their late 20's or older.



Yeah....because $1000-$1500 modelers are an easy impulse purchase for "bedroom musicians" and other "amateurs". Talk about flimsy reasoning.....

It's an unqualified success. Period. There are no caveats.


----------



## mikah912

fairness said:


> Axe 2 is better sounding than the Helix, in my opinion. With tweaking and 3rd party IRs aswell as without.
> It doesn't matter if Jeff Loomis or someone else advertises for one brand or the other.
> 
> Still can't really gel with Helix Native. The GUI is just not timely anymore.... i would have to rename all my IRs to shorter names just to use it with Helix Native.
> After using it a bit more i think there is some really strange stuff going on in the low-mid range with some drive models. Weird interaction, unreal saturation and stuff that one could almost call artifacts.



Can't say the same, but I also can't dispute your personal opinion. Fair enough.


----------



## fairness

It's fine, music would be boring if everyone liked the same sounds.


----------



## Metropolis

mikah912 said:


> Just search YouTube for "Arch Enemy Will to Power Tour Trailer".
> 
> As for the rest, no tone on any of these units is a fixed point. Adjusting the Sag and Bias controls on any Helix amp makes them respond and behave VERY differently. The IRs have way more impact on the finished tone, tho.




In here? I saw Kemper too, maybe for the bass player.

It's getting better, I had pretty much tired my hearing yesterday by playing whole night with headphones. When I had HD 300, HD Bean, and HD 500X I kept sag and bias quite low, and it really tightens up the amp model.


----------



## oc616

Didn't say they were easy purchases, you sure you read my post correctly?


----------



## capac

It's a pain in the ass to dial in helix. A lot of drives have something weird going on in the high mids, and it's difficult to dial out. I think everyone should just try it.


----------



## mikah912

oc616 said:


> Didn't say they were easy purchases, you sure you read my post correctly?



My point is Line 6 can't make any product a runaway success just by virtue of being Line 6, with the name recognition and distribution that entails. They are essentially new players in this space fighting a not-great rep from the HD500 and lack of development of the Vetta platform. And they're being price undercut by Fractal and Amplifire.

So for them to continue to succeed and get more big names to switch two years later means that the product stands on its own as a quality, top tier competitor regardless of the results any one player gets with it.


----------



## mnemonic

I tried to get the demo working on my laptop yesterday but it just wouldn't fully load. It opened, but everything was blank and I couldn't do anything.

It registered okay, said the trial was active, but it did say 'connection interrupted' in red at the top of the window when I clicked the '15 days remaining' bit on the bottom right. 

I'll bring my work laptop home today, install a reaper demo on it and give that a shot. It's much newer so maybe that will help.


----------



## capac

Works perfectly on my PC running reaper...


----------



## Zalbu

mikah912 said:


> Jeff Loomis is using a Helix as his complete live rig these days, and he previously was Kemper all the way. John Browne from Monuments...Helix. Chris Letchford from Scale the Summit was an official Fractal artist...now Helix. There are more. Not to mention it appears to be a pretty insane sales success with way wider distribution than Kemper or Fractal, so the idea of that being "second tier" is a joke.


I wouldn't exactly use Browne as an advocate for Line 6 gear considering that he kept using what I'm pretty sure was the POD XT even after trying the Axe Fx. I don't remember where but I remember him talking about how he just tried to replicate his POD tone on the Axe FX so it didn't really make sense to use it when the POD already does what he wants it to do. Not to mention that he's sponsored by Line 6 now.

Anyways, has anybody put down the $400 for the Native yet? I'm thinking about doing it since I run my GSP1101 through my DAW when playing 99% of the time so the Helix tones would be an upgrade, but $400 is a juicy sum of money to spend on a plugin...


----------



## brutalwizard

I dropped the 400$ split between 3 people, and snagged a focusrite clarret. basically just going to be ripping off ace it up's idea from this thread.
http://www.sevenstring.org/threads/rig-rundown-band-in-a-rack-continued.294223/


----------



## mikah912

Zalbu said:


> I wouldn't exactly use Browne as an advocate for Line 6 gear considering that he kept using what I'm pretty sure was the POD XT even after trying the Axe Fx. I don't remember where but I remember him talking about how he just tried to replicate his POD tone on the Axe FX so it didn't really make sense to use it when the POD already does what he wants it to do. Not to mention that he's sponsored by Line 6 now.



He's also an official Mesa artist, so I don't think he's some paid shill that's Line 6 Above All, per se. 

Guy just use what works for him. Kinda like Meshugah. They've recorded multiple times with POD/Vetta sounds, but I don't think they ever have with Axe-Fx, despite using them live up until recently. Album before last was Cubase amp rack. Last one was real amps.


----------



## mnemonic

Got helix working on my gf's Mac, no problem at all so I guess it was my old computer just not wanting to run it.

I turned off impulses and just ran it into my 2/50/2 and 2x12 cab as I'm just interested in what helix amp models sound like. There was a slight latency that was annoying and I couldn't figure out how to eliminate (GarageBand seems light on functionality) so I can't really comment on the feel.

Overall I did not find it hard to get a good tight metal tone. The stand out models to me were the Archon (I wish cliff would model one of these for the axe fx) and the Badonk, which basically sounds like a more modern and versatile Big Bottom from the PodXT days. Except I can actually add mids to this amp, and it's not as fizzy. Still has that Big Bottom voicing which is cool.

Fatality was extremely fizzy but I bet that could be tamed. Some other models that I'm forgetting the names of has some high end fizz that decayed in a really weird way, like it decreased in pitch as the note delayed. I can get similar weird effects on my axe fx but usually just on amps when the poweramp is driven way too hard to be tight.

I get people's complaints about the interface, the sliders are kinda annoying, I'd prefer knobs, but overall it was easy to use.

I expected more deep editing parameters for the amps, maybe I'm just spoiled by the sheer amount of crap you can change in the axe fx. Unless they were on some page I didn't see? Dunno.

Overall I was pleasantly surprised by it. Given a lot of you guys haven't liked it I wasn't expecting much. I'd be interested in trying or buying a hardware helix.


----------



## oc616

Here's what I don't get. If the amp models sound better to you on a (or various) cheaper plugin(s) that requires less effort to get rid of certain "artifacts", if the GUI isn't to your taste and you don't already own a Helix hardware unit, why would you bother with Native? What does it offer over the competition in the plugin market?


----------



## mnemonic

oc616 said:


> Here's what I don't get. If the amp models sound better to you on a (or various) cheaper plugin(s) that requires less effort to get rid of certain "artifacts", if the GUI isn't to your taste and you don't already own a Helix hardware unit, why would you bother with Native? What does it offer over the competition in the plugin market?



I don't give a shit about plugins nor do I record anymore. I just wanted to see what helix sounds like through my setup with my guitars, and I don't want to buy one to find out.


----------



## billinder33

Count me as one that finds Helix (and Line6 across all their product lines, for that matter) to have that nasty fizz others complained about. You really hear it when you play single-notes above the 12th fret with a neck pickup engaged. 

IMO, just about any modern high-gain amp sim sounds respectable when djent'ing out 16th-note fragments on a low B string. Using that same tone above the 12th fret is where most of the flaws are revealed.... that's where the digitally fizz will really show itself. 

TSE50 so far is the best amp plugin I've used. Thinking about demo'ing TH3 for some added variety though, based on other's opinions in this thread. TSE is great, but it's kind of a really nice one-trick-pony.

Also own a Kemper, and haven't found anything that tops it when chained through a good studio-quality pre/EQ/comp and into the ADC/DAW. Always open to the possibility that someday a plug will come along and unseat the Kemper though.


----------



## capac

Helix is not bad at all, but it has some weird fizz going on.


----------



## Zalbu

mikah912 said:


> He's also an official Mesa artist, so I don't think he's some paid shill that's Line 6 Above All, per se.
> 
> Guy just use what works for him. Kinda like Meshugah. They've recorded multiple times with POD/Vetta sounds, but I don't think they ever have with Axe-Fx, despite using them live up until recently. Album before last was Cubase amp rack. Last one was real amps.


I'm not saying he's a paid shill, the dude is an amazing engineer and can plug into a toaster and make it sound good, it's just a bit fishy that he says he doesn't need the Axe-Fx and keeps using old Line 6 gear and then makes the switch to Helix when he gets sponsored by them.
I don't doubt that he thinks the Helix is a superior piece of gear to the stuff he's been using before but like I said, I wouldn't consider him as some big advocate for Line 6.

Weird to hear about the issues people are having with the Native, hopefully they'll be able to iron some of the kinks out with software updates down the line. I'll give the trial a shot when I have the time but I'll probably stick to my GSP1101 for now.


----------



## Guitarjon

Hey guys,

In case you missed it, I made two Helix Native demos.
This one is more metal:


And this one more traditional with a strat but still rock:


I think Helix is great!
Is it more accurate than the Axe FX or a real amp?
That is debatable but the Helix sure sounds great in it's own right.
The midrange has something that is pleasing to the ears imho.


----------



## Element0s

I have a hardware Helix and love it dearly. Took some time to get some tones I was totally happy with but I'm glad I stuck it out. because I've got the best tone of my life. I'll be get Native once I've got the spare hundy next paycheck. I dialed the fizz with some simple EQs on the IRs. I would say that the Axe-Fx can get better tones overall but for my tastes the difference in quality wasn't worth the price difference.

Try putting the LA studio comp at the end of your chain, and the Tube Mic Pre near the beginning. I found that setting both of those blocks at a subtle level got me nicer tones, plus the aforementioned hi/lo passes on my IRs.

Also, this helped me dial in some of the more esoteric amp parameters: 
http://line6.com/support/topic/19115-helix-amp-parameters/


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

I'm going to echo most people who have posted thus far and say I am very disappointed in Helix Native. I haven't spent much time with it but I had trouble getting a usable tone. I'm sure with a lot of time and tweaking I could get something nice, but I'm not interested in 'deep editing/tweaking' to get decent tones. With BIAS FX all I need to do is throw a tubescreamer in front of any amp and I immediately get a good tone, not so with Helix.

Like others, I too noticed a lot of weird fizz that I couldn't easily dial out.


----------



## capac

If you tweak the amp settings and low pass some things, you can get a semi decent tone, but I can tell in one second it's not the real deal. The fizz is annoying.


----------



## Flextone2

Metropolis said:


> Yes they do, but mostly in a mix. Individually Helix Native's tones just don't cut it for me. Also I could spend next couple of weeks with it, but still not getting out what I want.



Hmm Isn't this quite dumm opinion? "They sound great in a mix, but not individually"... It's like saying: " Your tone and sound is great in bandcontext and It fits into music, but your sound is terrible whrn played alone..." I've allways tried to make music and fit into the context.....


----------



## Metropolis

Flextone2 said:


> Hmm Isn't this quite dumm opinion? "They sound great in a mix, but not individually"... It's like saying: " Your tone and sound is great in bandcontext and It fits into music, but your sound is terrible whrn played alone..." I've allways tried to make music and fit into the context.....



Almost every demo I've seen in past couple of years from Helix products, I've been thinking "that's okay, but nothing spectacular, so I got to test it myself." And in the mix they just always sound decent, not great. Just alone those products are not for me, because of things stated before. Real amps are great, Axe and Kemper are great, Helix is just decent or above it.


----------



## oc616

Here's what Native comes down to, and why Flex's argument is so poor. Why would I pay over double the amount of TH3 and other similar equally (if you really can't hear the difference) plugins for something that "sounds just as good in the mix"? The only reason there could be is the GUI, and seeing as how even those in this thread that are singing its praises didn't reckon much to it, I'm still lost on to what the appeal could be if you don't already own a hardware unit. If it sounds just as good in a mix as others, but worse on its own, at a greater cost, its not as much value as the other options. That's just common sense.


----------



## mikah912

I'll paraphrase Bulb (who's also on record as liking the Helix modeling, BTW) here: Y'all are some haters.

It's _beyond_ easy to get a non-fizzy, realistic heavy tone out of Helix Native, and I do it the same way I do with my hardware Helix. It ain't with a bunch of EQ. It's not with endless tweaking. Y'all are overthinking it.

I'm tired of putting my own clips up to disprove it. Listen to Sinmix - the guy who makes all of those boss Kemper profiles:



Each one of those is just drive pedal, a high gain amp, and a damn good IR to go with it. No tonematching wizardry. Not 50 EQs. Just simple.


----------



## oc616

Ok Mikah, bit bored of you dodging the questions and blanket statementing the issue. So I'll ask plainly and clearly.

If the other plugin options, which sounds no worse (see, I'm not saying "better") than Helix cost half or sometimes less of its price, and if you do not own a Helix hardware unit, what are you paying for?


----------



## mikah912

oc616 said:


> Ok Mikah, bit bored of you dodging the questions and blanket statementing the issue. So I'll ask plainly and clearly.
> 
> If the other plugin options, which sounds no worse (see, I'm not saying "better") than Helix cost half or sometimes less of its price, and if you do not own a Helix hardware unit, what are you paying for?



I don't think you ever asked me this in the first place, so not sure what you mean by "dodging the question". I'll happily answer.

Well, for one, it'll have more active development as a platform than most of the existing plugins. Line 6 has already added a bunch of amp models since release, and reportedly has 5 amps and 7 new FX lined up for the next update. When was the last time, say, Amplitube 4 or TH3 added an amp model? Or Guitar Rig 5 or TSE?

I'll grant that Revalver has been creating "ACT Amp Matches" just like Bias does "Amp Match", but those are all EQ matches no different than what preset makers like Fremen or Glenn DeLaune already do for Helix. But aside from that, there's no VST developer as active as Line 6 has been. I think the closest might be Thermionik, and the only amp update I ever saw for that since it was released was in February?

Second, it's got a more complete suite of FX than any of them. And those FX are also under constant development.

Now, does that mean it's for everyone? No. Does that mean it's the best VST suite out there? Also, no. I personally think they have a number of tweaks to make (like lifting the DSP restrictions of the hardware) to make a self-sufficient plug-in.

But I'm tired of people characterizing it as some hard-to-use fizzy whatever. There lots of clips to the contrary, and none of the people making those used black magic or endless tweaking to achieve them.


----------



## Flextone2

oc616 said:


> Here's what Native comes down to, and why Flex's argument is so poor. Why would I pay over double the amount of TH3 and other similar equally (if you really can't hear the difference) plugins for something that "sounds just as good in the mix"? The only reason there could be is the GUI, and seeing as how even those in this thread that are singing its praises didn't reckon much to it, I'm still lost on to what the appeal could be if you don't already own a hardware unit. If it sounds just as good in a mix as others, but worse on its own, at a greater cost, its not as much value as the other options. That's just common sense.


You have all the right points here. But I wasn't speaking about Native's price, but the whole purpose of these plugins! I think that they are for musical purposes i.e. making songs, recordings and so on... So why are some of you guys so negative here? Why you have to prove that TH3 is better than Native or Native isn't ready yet..?

I think that at this point (version Native 1...whatever) there's no point buying Native, if you don't have the hw-version too. As said, there are other products that are cheaper and/or give the same results. 
But what pisses me most, is the attitude "Native is fizz - axeFX/th3/kemper is better...." 

What are these Plugins made for: live use: noup!, Home studio/studio: yes! 
So I really don't get why its so difficult to spend some time with tweaking, and get good fizzless sounds out of Helix/Native, because you're doing it for yourself! And after you put your guitars into the mix, you'll get proper result regardless the plug or your gear... I think that you can't sell more cd's only with good guitar sound....

Typos, yes I hate my phone.....


----------



## capac

Helix is still better than pretty much any VST I've tried (I haven't tried any high end stuff like UAD). It's just that it doesn't sound like the real deal.


----------



## Steinmetzify

Flextone2 said:


> So why are some of you guys so negative here? Why you have to prove that TH3 is better than Native or Native isn't ready yet..?
> But what pisses me most, is the attitude "Native is fizz - axeFX/th3/kemper is better...."



After reading this, I feel like I should clarify my statement regarding Native...for ME, being a guy that owns his own business, does outside contract work and is starting a regular job next month TOO....plugins/hardware have to be plug and play. I absolutely need it to just work immediately, otherwise I won't even mess with it. If I can't get a usable recorded tone inside of ten minutes, it's gone forever. Maybe that's a failing on my part, maybe I could have gotten there eventually, but I don't have time for that.

I get VERY little time to play guitar and/or record, and that being the case I don't have time to mess around with EQs/IRs or whatever.

in THAT instance, the Axe and the Mercuriall stuff was better for ME; both offered immediately usable recordable tones that required zero tweaking on my end. I'm not saying Native sucks and all this stuff rules so hard over it; I'm saying I couldn't get an immediate tone for what I wanted to do, which means there's no point in even going back to it for me.

For those guys digging it, right on, I'm glad you can have something new that sounds and feels great for you. I don't hate on it, I just won't use it. Props to L6 for doing this in the first place.


----------



## mikah912

For what's it worth, I agree that Native isn't a huge value prop yet for non-Helix owners. But I like all of the development they've done on the platform thus far, and I think it will make a leading solution going forward.

Can't disagree more about it not sounding like "the real deal", but that's inarguable.


----------



## capac

At 400$, I don't think it's bad at all. If you have for an amp at home, I'd say go for it. I don't hate it, it just isn't quite right for my taste.


----------



## billinder33

mikah912 said:


> I'll paraphrase Bulb (who's also on record as liking the Helix modeling, BTW) here: Y'all are some haters.
> 
> It's _beyond_ easy to get a non-fizzy, realistic heavy tone out of Helix Native, and I do it the same way I do with my hardware Helix. It ain't with a bunch of EQ. It's not with endless tweaking. Y'all are overthinking it.
> 
> I'm tired of putting my own clips up to disprove it. Listen to Sinmix - the guy who makes all of those boss Kemper profiles:
> 
> 
> 
> Each one of those is just drive pedal, a high gain amp, and a damn good IR to go with it. No tonematching wizardry. Not 50 EQs. Just simple.




The very first funk riff in the video is by far the worst, and exposes the weakness in L6 that people complain about. The rest of the video is playing to the lowest common denominator of guitar tone... Pretty much every plugin sounds good when beating on a low B and E sting w/ active pickups through a high gain sim. 

Leads and melodies in the high register, or music where there's more subtlety involved are where these L6 gain tones usually fall apart vs a real amp or better sims. This is why many (including myself) say they are ok sitting in a mix where the harsh, digitally overtones can be obscured, but are not too satisfying during pre-production, solo practice, etc.

In another post, you mentioned that L6 has a lot of FX options and invests a lot of R&D into those. I will agree with that... on the FX front, none of the other vendors have been able to match L6's FX range and versatility, IMO. When I need some kind of otherworldly effect, my HD500X is the first thing I reach for. I can usually find something in there that nails that gurgling space alien sound, or whatever I'm looking for at the time.


----------



## mikah912

billinder33 said:


> The very first funk riff in the video is by far the worst, and exposes the weakness in L6 that people complain about. The rest of the video is playing to the lowest common denominator of guitar tone... Pretty much every plugin sounds good when beating on a low B and E sting w/ active pickups through a high gain sim.
> 
> Leads and melodies in the high register, or music where there's more subtlety involved are where these L6 gain tones usually fall apart vs a real amp or better sims. This is why many (including myself) say they are ok sitting in a mix where the harsh, digitally overtones can be obscured, but are not too satisfying during pre-production, solo practice, etc.
> 
> In another post, you mentioned that L6 has a lot of FX options and invests a lot of R&D into those. I will agree with that... on the FX front, none of the other vendors have been able to match L6's FX range and versatility, IMO. When I need some kind of otherworldly effect, my HD500X is the first thing I reach for. I can usually find something in there that nails that gurgling space alien sound, or whatever I'm looking for at the time.



If you're already coming from the perspective that Line 6 has some inherent "weakness" or sonic signature that stretches across all of their tones, regardless of amp being profiled or what generation you're referring to...it's quite likely that is exactly what you will hear when you listen to anything Line 6 generated.

Similarly, if one has the preconceived notion that Axe-FX or Kemper have some rarefied "tube amp" qualities that no one else can touch, they'll project that onto them in any comparison. I'm not going to waste keystrokes trying to change the preconceived notions. People can try Native for themselves. 

The Helix hardware and software has lots of happy customers (myself included), and good number of notable metal guys like Robby from The Contortionist, Jeff Loomis and Chris Letchford using it for their amp tones. If it's not for you, cool. if you wanna cast it as inferior to Axe-FX or Kemper, also cool. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.


----------



## Flextone2

Metropolis said:


> Real amps are great, Axe and Kemper are great, Helix is just decent or above it.



Yes... and you've tested them all  If you take two jcm800's, they both sound like marshall's, but they sound different. So maybe the real amps aren't the holy grail, but TH3 is! Helix is just decent.....


----------



## billinder33

mikah912 said:


> If you're already coming from the perspective that Line 6 has some inherent "weakness" or sonic signature that stretches across all of their tones, regardless of amp being profiled or what generation you're referring to...it's quite likely that is exactly what you will hear when you listen to anything Line 6 generated.
> 
> Similarly, if one has the preconceived notion that Axe-FX or Kemper have some rarefied "tube amp" qualities that no one else can touch, they'll project that onto them in any comparison. I'm not going to waste keystrokes trying to change the preconceived notions. People can try Native for themselves.
> 
> The Helix hardware and software has lots of happy customers (myself included), and good number of notable metal guys like Robby from The Contortionist, Jeff Loomis and Chris Letchford using it for their amp tones. If it's not for you, cool. if you wanna cast it as inferior to Axe-FX or Kemper, also cool. Everybody's entitled to an opinion.



IDK why you think me or anyone else here would be coming in with a preconceived bias that there is inherent weakness in L6 products. Every HW or SW amp I demo, I want to be better in some way than what I have now, otherwise why bother trying them? 

The core modeling engine of the Helix (both HW and SW) sound very similar to the HD500X I own, which is my traveling rig because it's highly portable and "good enough for government work" as they say. But in terms of tone, it's not anywhere near as aesthetically pleasing as my Kemper, which I do all my important recording projects with. Nor is it even as pleasing as the TSE50 plugin, which is my quick-and-dirty practice tool. 

FWIW, I also own the Amplitude, Waves, and NI guitar bundles, and IMO the L6 products are definitely a step up from those products and pretty much on par with LePou. But my complaint about those products is actually the same complaint about L6.... the high gain tones are fizzy/digitally/fake sounding at the high end of the frequency spectrum. IMO Helix is a little tamer than Waves/NI/Amplitude in this regard and thus sounds more authentic, but it's still there. 

I consider this digitally/fizzy attribute to be the "weakness"of the Helix (and has been the case for all L6 products I've heard).... so maybe it's that term you object to? Some people like this sound... thousands of Rat pedals have been sold over the years, so there's certainly a market for that kind of tone (the Kemper can totally replicate this sound, BTW). But many posters here who have demo'd the SW have stated that it's present in the Helix and hard to dial out. I concur with this opinion. 

Whether those characteristics are desirable or not is for the individual to decide. Maybe Contortionist and Loomis and Letchford like this sound, or maybe those guys are paid shills who can't earn a living promoting gold bouillons, Tennessee lakefront property, and reverse mortgages, who knows? But I don't see how it's even debatable that this tonal property is a core aspect of the Helix modeling engine.... it's pretty unlikely that everyone here who doesn't like that sound are all bringing a preconceived bias and what we're hearing simply resides inside the imagination of those who decided they dislike the Helix sound.


----------



## mikah912

billinder33 said:


> IDK why you think me or anyone else here would be coming in with a preconceived bias that there is inherent weakness in L6 products. Every HW or SW amp I demo, I want to be better in some way than what I have now, otherwise why bother trying them?



Because you express say that you believe all of their products - apparently from Pod 1.0 to Helix have a common character, and they clearly don't. And keep in mind...I wasn't a big fan of the HD500, X3 or Pod 2.



> The core modeling engine of the Helix (both HW and SW) sound very similar to the HD500X I own, which is my traveling rig because it's highly portable and "good enough for government work" as they say. But in terms of tone, it's not anywhere near as aesthetically pleasing as my Kemper, which I do all my important recording projects with. Nor is it even as pleasing as the TSE50 plugin, which is my quick-and-dirty practice tool.



With the exception of the newer amps like the PRS Archon, Mark IV and Matchless DC30, the vast majority of physical amps that Helix modeled _are _the same amps that were modeled by the HD500X, so there would should be similarities, don't you think? If anything, that's a endorsement that they're getting accuracy right.



> FWIW, I also own the Amplitude, Waves, and NI guitar bundles, and IMO the L6 products are definitely a step up from those products and pretty much on par with LePou. But my complaint about those products is actually the same complaint about L6.... the high gain tones are fizzy/digitally/fake sounding at the high end of the frequency spectrum. IMO Helix is a little tamer than Waves/NI/Amplitude in this regard and thus sounds more authentic, but it's still there.
> 
> I consider this digitally/fizzy attribute to be the "weakness"of the Helix (and has been the case for all L6 products I've heard).... so maybe it's that term you object to? Some people like this sound... thousands of Rat pedals have been sold over the years, so there's certainly a market for that kind of tone (the Kemper can totally replicate this sound, BTW). But many posters here who have demo'd the SW have stated that it's present in the Helix and hard to dial out. I concur with this opinion.



As someone who not only owns a lot of those, but also had an AX8 twice...can't disagree more. First off, you are conflating completely unrelated things.

Real amps - especially high gain amps - have LOTS of fizz in that frequency range. 5150 is a chief offender. So is the Dual Rectifier. Some speaker combos in real life also accentuate that fizz. Mics like the SM57 ALSO accentuate that, which is why people use 45-degree angling/off-axis/Fredman technique. And ALL of these sims are the sound of a mic'd amp, not the amp in the room. Anyone who's never played a cranked high gain amp and heard fizz has high frequency damage done with their hearing. 

Second, "digital/fake" sound is typically referring to artifacts or poor aliasing that result when a low resolution of model or IR is processing the sound. Helix runs way higher resolution models and up to 2048-rez IRs, so...not an issue. I _have_ heard sounds occasionally running parallel to _lower gain_ models, but these are power amp artifacts that I also hear in real roots/country amps.

The point is...these are not weaknesses, bugs or signifiers of bad modeling. If you don't hear it elsewhere, that means they've been shorn away in either the IR or in the algorithms. They damn sure exist in the real world.

So, then...it's just down to opinion. And confirmation bias is a huge influencer of it. Concurrence does nothing to establish it as fact. Something can be loudly and publicly ballyhooed and still not be universally true.


----------



## billinder33

mikah912 said:


> Because you express say that you believe all of their products - apparently from Pod 1.0 to Helix have a common character, and they clearly don't. And keep in mind...I wasn't a big fan of the HD500, X3 or Pod 2.



I have not heard a L6 model from the KidneyBean 'till now that I felt was authentic, regardless of the underlying technology stack. Either their designer staff and I don't share the same tastes, or they are 'inferior' to other technologies. Not sure which, but regardless, I'm not coughing up big-bucks for Helix SW or HW until they dial it in to rival my Kemper. And trust me, if I could get the tone from my Kemper in the Helix HW form factor, or a SW plugin for recording, I'd be there in a second... it would certainly make my life easier. I want to be sold. I want them to take my money, but they haven't sold me yet. Sorry.




> With the exception of the newer amps like the PRS Archon, Mark IV and Matchless DC30, the vast majority of physical amps that Helix modeled _are _the same amps that were modeled by the HD500X, so there would should be similarities, don't you think? If anything, that's a endorsement that they're getting accuracy right.



In case I was not clear enough in my previous post, I'm not in love with, nor do I 'endorse' the HD500X tone. I endorse the HD500X (which I paid all of $225 for on Reverb) as a cheap thing to drag around to live playing environments. If it breaks or gets beer spilled on it, then I'm not heartbroken like I would be if my $2200 Kemper setup got smashed or stolen.

My issue with the Helix tone is the exact same issue I have with the HD500X. As a box that generates guitar tones, they sound almost exactly the same, as one would expect. I actually tried a Helix before I cheaped out and got the HD500X, and was meh on the tone, but wanted a modeler in the floor-switcher-with-pedal form factor. I also tried the Vox, the Digitech, the Boss, and bought the HD500X because it was as good or better than those others, at a fraction of the cost of the very similar sounding Helix.

The HD500X and the Helix SW plugin, are two things I would not use in a recording unless it is for heavily effected patches (as I mentioned upthread), or if I just didn't care all that much about the recording... which happens on occasion. The Kemper stays racked in my studio, and if it's a recording that comes from another studio that I want to have MY tone on, I'll download the DAW files and track in my own studio.




> So, then...it's just down to opinion. And confirmation bias is a huge influencer of it. Concurrence does nothing to establish it as fact. Something can be loudly and publicly ballyhooed and still not be universally true.



It is not an opinion that the base emulations that are in the Helix have a fundamentally different tonal quality than the average models in my Kemper, or even the TSE - this is exactly as expected because they are all different SW/HW implementations. I can describe the recent L6 model sounds as "fizzy/digitally" as have others here. You may not like the description, but many others have concurred with this assessment. Safe to say we're not all crazy or have tin ears or carry around some sort of anti-L6 bias.

Maybe the designers intended it to sound this way, maybe its the modeling capture process that L6 employs, maybe it's the models themselves. I don't know the reason, but even without possessing the world's most sensitive ears I can there's a real world difference between L6 products and the products of other product companies. As can many others who have posted on this thread.

Even the Soundcloud postings listed way upstream by oc616 in this monster thread comparing Helix to other sims confirm this. You can hear them for yourself:



> The order is as follows:
> 
> 1. TH3 Dual Rec
> 2. Helix Dual Rec
> 3. TH3 5150
> 4. Helix 5150
> 5. TH3 Fireball
> 6. Helix Fireball
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/amostagreeablesloth/th3-vs-helix-3-amp-test


----------



## oc616

I'd also like to restate how those were literally "dials to 5" as default amp models for the examples. If they sound obviously worse in that state, why would I pay more to spend more effort? Also, regarding the "more complete package" comment, I thought I'd do another comparison...

(unique models only, discounting "clean channel, V30 speakers" etc versions of the same amp on different sim, vendor original amps are included)

AMPS:
Helix - 32
TH3 - 37

CABS:
Helix - 28
TH3 - 37

EFFECTS:
Helix - 76
TH3 - 75

Here's the links to their lists as they stand atm.

TH3 model list: http://www.overloud2.com/media/common/TH3/TH3 Model List.pdf
Helix Amps: http://line6.com/data/6/0a06439cc0ef55b13d89a4aa8/application/pdf
Helix Cabs: http://line6.com/data/6/0a064339df6f55b13dacdc933/application/pdf
Helix Effects: http://line6.com/data/6/0a06439cc32f55b13d5d8e678/application/pdf

So actually Mikah, there's only one category that Helix is more "complete" than TH3, with 1 more effect option in total. Now I understand Line 6 are rumoured to be adding 5 more models in some future update, but as it stands you can't claim it to be a more complete package.


----------



## mikah912

You guys seriously evaluate real amps with all the dials set to five and make a definitive judgment? LOL. I guess all Mesa Mark amps blow then.....

BTW, those Helix PDFs are super out of date. Those are the launch lineups....


----------



## billinder33

mikah912 said:


> You guys seriously evaluate real amps with all the dials set to five and make a definitive judgment?



How else would you suggest software implementations of real world amps be fairly compared? Should we dial them all up to 10 instead? Should the tester subjectively pick what he thinks are the best settings from each? Oscilloscope charts?

Most of the people commenting here actually downloaded the demo and listened, and most of those weren't all that impressed. 10 yeas ago the Helix SW would have been an absolute game-changer. But there's a whole lot of competition out there these days from companies who are passionate about bringing great guitar tone to the plugin market. And they don't have the massive marketing overhead of L6 which is reflected in their SW pricing model.

Here's another thing that disappointed me about L6.... $1500 is a big chunk of change to pay for Helix HW that is nowhere near the Kemper in tonal authenticity, and only adds some new models and interface options but essentially sounds the same as the HD500X. I can't knock L6's business acumen, they are clearly killing it with Helix, but it's not the premium sounding product that Kemper is, nor does it hit the value point the HD500X does... it's in some strange middle-land that certainly appeals to a large audience, but not to me in particular. I'll pay for products that resonate, but this one was a big miss for me.



> I guess all Mesa Mark amps blow then.....



Funny you mention Mesa Mark... I'm a huge fan of the Mesa Mark series, and if given the choice, I would take a busted one with knobs stuck on 5s over a whole lot of other manufacturer's amps with a full set of working knobs!!!


----------



## oc616

mikah912 said:


> You guys seriously evaluate real amps with all the dials set to five and make a definitive judgment? LOL. I guess all Mesa Mark amps blow then.....
> 
> BTW, those Helix PDFs are super out of date. Those are the launch lineups....



Again you are missing the point of those clips I made entirely. I'd rather have people do what I did and solo the damn central guitar track with an out-of-the-box sound than put some half-arsed drums or god forbid a full mix to show me exactly what I'm getting with nothing additional. That was the point, so when the TH3 sounded better in that circumstance to a lot of other users' ears, I know which stood the test. There was no "easily dialed out fizz", to which your quote below is a laughable attempt at justification for a well documented phenomenon.



mikah912 said:


> Real amps - especially high gain amps - have LOTS of fizz in that frequency range. 5150 is a chief offender. So is the Dual Rectifier.



So no, we don't evaluate amps purely on the groups of "set to 5", I spent a good 2 days trying to work around it and found the attempt unnecessary compared to what I had for less with minimal effort anyway. Hence solo default tracks, so you can hear the model as it comes for each plugin.


----------



## mikah912

No point in further back and forth, really. Sorry y'all didn't dig it. The product stands or falls on its own merit, and they seem to be doing a little better than ok.

It's just another great plug-in option to go alongside S-Gear, TH3 and Thermionik. If you like one of those better, cool. I own and use them all, but my only hardware is a full Helix Floor. It kicks out premium guitar tone that made me send a Fractal AX8 packing - twice - but only to people open to it. Use whatever does it for you. Peace!


----------



## Elric

Flextone2 said:


> Hmm Isn't this quite dumm opinion? "They sound great in a mix, but not individually"... It's like saying: " Your tone and sound is great in bandcontext and It fits into music, but your sound is terrible whrn played alone..." I've allways tried to make music and fit into the context.....


What's dumb about demanding that a $400 plugin be inspiring whether you use it when rehearsing alone or in a mix? Especially when competing, less expensive products do? Sounds like a rational assessment to me. Sometimes guitar is unaccompanied in a song too.


----------



## mongey

I think its decent from very limited time with it . not about to drop $400 USD on it but with a little tinkering it sounds pretty decent

sold my axe fx xl 2 years ago but from my memory of it I wouldn't say its light years apart . every amp sim can sound like fizzy crap with the gain they put on tap. I don't think I ever made a fractal high gain patch without some fairly heavy LP filerting


----------



## Ericjutsu

right now it's not worth 400 USD. I think it will be fairly soon after some updates. It's certainly worth 100 USD for Helix hardware owners though.


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

After spending a few more hours with Line 6 Helix Native I have the following update:

#1 Had trouble getting tones that I liked (clean or dirty) using the stock cabinet emulation.

#2 Downloaded a couple free IR's (an OwnHammer and a CelestionPlus) and it completely changed my experience. Rather than tweaking with EQ and frequency filters on the cabinets I was able to get much better tones, instantly, with little to no tweaking. I can't tell you how much more I enjoyed Helix Native with the free OwnHammer cab IR, it was very fun.

#3 My general impression is that the Helix provides a more 'raw' tone--something you'd hear if you were to mic a cabinet in a studio or home recording room. Because of this, you need to tweak things a little to get a more 'polished' tone. It seems to me that other modelers are more 'polished' sounding right out of the box, while the Helix attempts not to emulate a 'polished/optimal' sound, but rather a 'raw' sound that you need to work with if you are looking for 'polish'. As mentioned earlier, cabinet IR's get you most of the way there in terms of the 'optimal/polished' tones that most of us have come to expect with contemporary modelers. Where Line 6 went wrong is with their cab emulation, they--unlike a lot of other VST's, modelers--did not put the time in to finding optimal tones (obviously this is subjective) that other companies have. This is where I think 95% of the issues are coming from in terms of those who have disliked Helix.

#4 Overall, after finding a good cab IR I really enjoyed all the tones I was getting. It definitely sounded more 'genuine' than a lot of modelers I've used (haven't played AxeFx, Kemper, or Headrush though) and I really ended up liking the cleans and mid-gain tones as well. I don't like how there wasn't a built-in tuner or acoustic sim though--these should be included. I would gladly buy the Helix Native program if it were cheaper and had an acoustic sim and tuner; however, I understand the $400 price-tag from Line 6's point of view because they #1 don't want to devalue their Helix units and #2 because the price-tag signals that they are attempting to hang with the leaders in the market (Kemper, Fractal).


----------



## billinder33

AkiraSpectrum said:


> After spending a few more hours with Line 6 Helix Native I have the following update:
> 
> #1 Had trouble getting tones that I liked (clean or dirty) using the stock cabinet emulation.
> 
> #2 Downloaded a couple free IR's (an OwnHammer and a CelestionPlus) and it completely changed my experience. Rather than tweaking with EQ and frequency filters on the cabinets I was able to get much better tones, instantly, with little to no tweaking. I can't tell you how much more I enjoyed Helix Native with the free OwnHammer cab IR, it was very fun.
> 
> #3 My general impression is that the Helix provides a more 'raw' tone--something you'd hear if you were to mic a cabinet in a studio or home recording room. Because of this, you need to tweak things a little to get a more 'polished' tone. It seems to me that other modelers are more 'polished' sounding right out of the box, while the Helix attempts not to emulate a 'polished/optimal' sound, but rather a 'raw' sound that you need to work with if you are looking for 'polish'. As mentioned earlier, cabinet IR's get you most of the way there in terms of the 'optimal/polished' tones that most of us have come to expect with contemporary modelers. Where Line 6 went wrong is with their cab emulation, they--unlike a lot of other VST's, modelers--did not put the time in to finding optimal tones (obviously this is subjective) that other companies have. This is where I think 95% of the issues are coming from in terms of those who have disliked Helix.
> 
> #4 Overall, after finding a good cab IR I really enjoyed all the tones I was getting. It definitely sounded more 'genuine' than a lot of modelers I've used (haven't played AxeFx, Kemper, or Headrush though) and I really ended up liking the cleans and mid-gain tones as well. I don't like how there wasn't a built-in tuner or acoustic sim though--these should be included. I would gladly buy the Helix Native program if it were cheaper and had an acoustic sim and tuner; however, I understand the $400 price-tag from Line 6's point of view because they #1 don't want to devalue their Helix units and #2 because the price-tag signals that they are attempting to hang with the leaders in the market (Kemper, Fractal).



You would think that L6 would put more work into the IR's if that's the main thing holding the Helix tone back. I'm guessing most people just want/expect this kind of software to sound good out-of-the-box rather than spend a bunch of time tinkering to find a good sound. Maybe the L6 sound design team can't capture enough of the corporate budget, what with their marketing team gobbling up all those internal dollars.

I have always been disappointed with amp sims aside from my Kemper, but this Helix thread encouraged me to demo some of the latest amp sim packages. So the past few days I put TH3 and Amplitube Max (4) through the paces. I tried TH3 first and was getting along with it ok, despite the wonky interface. Sonically it was good/satisfying, not mind blowing, but right about on the level of my TSE50 (which I only use for practice and jotting down ideas in the DAW) albeit way more versatile.

Then I tried the latest version of Amplitube... and wow, have they really beefed that application up since I last tested it a few years back (v2 or v3, don't remember which version). I don't recall it sounding anywhere near this good. In fact, I hated back then. I quickly got a tone using the licensed Mesa Mark IV stacked with a Carvin that blew me away... actually the Mesa stacked with pretty much anything else was friggin' awesome. It's literally the first time I thought I could live without my Kemper for studio use. I was shocked.

I feel like I've been completely jaded by the horrific and useless VST sims that I've invested in over the years (earlier versions of Amplitube, Waves, NI, LePou, other various free stuff, etc.) that I've totally missed out on this awesome piece of software. On top of that, the interface was way easier to use than TH3 embedded in Reaper's VST window on a 13" laptop screen. And I won't even get into Kemper's horrific physical interface and the lack of features in the user interface of it's companion computer SW.

I want to explore the new Amplitube more, but you only get 3 days to demo. The $500 price tag for Amplitube Max is no small chunk of change, and I still may pull the trigger. I need to take another test drive again before my demo license runs out to make sure I'm not just imagining things.

Neither Amplitube Max nor Helix are cheap, but at $100 more for Amplitube, I'd easily pay the uptick in price for the better, out-of-the-box tone. I always worry about SW or HW require tinkering to get good sound, because if it doesn't sound good out of the box, I rarely get it dialed in to complete satisfaction after the fact.


----------



## Steinmetzify

billinder33 said:


> You would think that L6 would put more work into the IR's if that's the main thing holding the Helix tone back. I'm guessing most people just want/expect this kind of software to sound good out-of-the-box rather than spend a bunch of time tinkering to find a good sound. Maybe the L6 sound design team can't capture enough of the corporate budget, what with their marketing team gobbling up all those internal dollars.
> 
> I have always been disappointed with amp sims aside from my Kemper, but this Helix thread encouraged me to demo some of the latest amp sim packages. So the past few days I put TH3 and Amplitube Max (4) through the paces. I tried TH3 first and was getting along with it ok, despite the wonky interface. Sonically it was good/satisfying, not mind blowing, but right about on the level of my TSE50 (which I only use for practice and jotting down ideas in the DAW) albeit way more versatile.
> 
> Then I tried the latest version of Amplitube... and wow, have they really beefed that application up since I last tested it a few years back (v2 or v3, don't remember which version). I don't recall it sounding anywhere near this good. In fact, I hated back then. I quickly got a tone using the licensed Mesa Mark IV stacked with a Carvin that blew me away... actually the Mesa stacked with pretty much anything else was friggin' awesome. It's literally the first time I thought I could live without my Kemper for studio use. I was shocked.
> 
> I feel like I've been completely jaded by the horrific and useless VST sims that I've invested in over the years (earlier versions of Amplitube, Waves, NI, LePou, other various free stuff, etc.) that I've totally missed out on this awesome piece of software. On top of that, the interface was way easier to use than TH3 embedded in Reaper's VST window on a 13" laptop screen. And I won't even get into Kemper's horrific physical interface and the lack of features in the user interface of it's companion computer SW.
> 
> I want to explore the new Amplitube more, but you only get 3 days to demo. The $500 price tag for Amplitube Max is no small chunk of change, and I still may pull the trigger. I need to take another test drive again before my demo license runs out to make sure I'm not just imagining things.
> 
> Neither Amplitube Max nor Helix are cheap, but at $100 more for Amplitube, I'd easily pay the uptick in price for the better, out-of-the-box tone. I always worry about SW or HW require tinkering to get good sound, because if it doesn't sound good out of the box, I rarely get it dialed in to complete satisfaction after the fact.



Yo, just so you're aware, you can buy just Amplitube Mesa Boogie. I did it, and for $150 totally worth it.


----------



## isotropy

To me at this point, the only guitar amp modeling I'd pay for would be an Axe-fx or Kemper. There's so much stuff out there now that is all basically decent and that's it. The Pod HD was overall a disappointment to me. The more I used it the less of a Line 6 fan I became. No matter what the pricepoint or perceived effort of a Line 6 project, they always seem to just not quite get there in terms of quality/wow-factor.

I'm easily as satisfied (if not moreso) with LePou amps paired with really good IR's (another thing hugely lacking from Line 6 products). I understand these units offer more than just recording tones, e.g. the convenience and portability for live use. But for me, meh.


----------



## Metropolis

For me Amplitube 4 falls into "it's okay category". Even if it has modeling approved by Mesa Boogie. What turns me off in Amplitube is pricing and GUI. Scuffham S-gear has amazing Mark IV model and TH3's Dual Recto is also very authentic, they have quite realistic knob reactions compared to anything else.


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## jsmalleus

Haven't tried Native, but if it has the global EQ like the regular helix then a quick notch or two goes a long way in the fizz dept. Usually end up doing the same for fizz/howly mids in a mic'd up amp/cab as well, so I don't really find it to be a deal breaker. There are definitely more plug & play friendly options out there in terms of tones, but if you take 30 seconds to hunt down those frequencies I think some folks might find it closer to what they'd expect from the "EQ baked into the input" options.


----------



## mikah912

There are lots of great options out there, but none are comprehensive or anywhere near perfect. 

Fractal has a great selection, but not great workflow and is missing some modern high gainers I rather enjoy. Also, if you're not paying the full $2400 for the Axe-FX II, you're going to have settle with a lot of limitations on the AX8 like a fixed impedance input, no headphone jack, small display and more.

Helix has a more limited selection and and doesn't have stock cabs that fit with the popular tastes here, but it is racking up more modern high gain tools like the PRS Archon and Darkglass B7K and is the only real all-in-one (pedal, interface, headphone jack, performance floorboard, reamper, modeling and FX). Kemper has a potentially endless selection of models, but has super limited effects and no computer editor.

The computer VSTs are no different. I like the high gain amps on one or two, but like workflow of another and effects of another. Just pick what fits your tastes....


----------



## KingAenarion

billinder33 said:


> Here's another thing that disappointed me about L6.... $1500 is a big chunk of change to pay for Helix HW that is nowhere near the Kemper in tonal authenticity, and only adds some new models and interface options *but essentially sounds the same as the HD500X.*



Ummm... what? 

Absolutely night and day difference there.


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## billinder33

mikah912 said:


> Kemper has a potentially endless selection of models, but has super limited effects and no computer editor.



Typically if I'm looking for an effected sound, I don't have something specific in mind, I just page around until I find something that works for the song/track. In that context, even though Kemper doesn't have as many effects as Helix, AmpliTube, or TH3, I've never found myself yearning for an effected sound that couldn't be found there. And there's always the ability to add other effects post-tracking if I need to go somewhere the Kemper couldn't take me. But you're right, it's definitely not the Kemper's strength. 

From what I've experienced to date, Line6 seems to be king when it comes to the variety and usability of their FX. I'm sure this is by design, a marketing tool used to awe the average joe who walks into their local Guitar Center, plugs into Helix or HD500X and can immediately get some whacked out alien or pipe organ sounds. You can easily get carried away with this and lose focus on the most important thing.. the tones you will actually be using 95%+ of the time.

I'm no expert in the technology behind these SW and HW modeling systems (and I may be WAAAAY off base here...) but I believe the reason the Kemper sounds so darn good the Kemper is modeling one single end-to-end sound - amp, cab, mic, outboard pre/comp/EQ channel - all in one shot. Versus all the others who are modeling a bunch of amps, cabs, speakers, mics, mic placements, and outboard gear all separately. Then you mix and match it all to get a guitar tone.... I think this mix-and-match approach leaves a lot of room for the SW designers and the end users to end up with guitar tones that leave a lot to be desired. 

A Kemper model either sounds good or it doesn't - and most sound pretty good, because the people creating these models have typically a single good sounding real-world signal chain before the modeling process begins. With the Kemper it's pretty cut and dried... model sound good? Keep it. Model sound bad? Move on to the next patch. You can't swap out a mic or change the model's speaker placement. What you get is what you get. 

In these non-Kemper products, that the layering of multiple models can compound flaws in amp/cab/speaker/mic/outboard models. A model's frequency signature layered on top of another model's frequency signature can create all types of unwanted amplification of certain frequencies and weird/undesirable phase issues. Also, an amp model may sound like total crap, until you find the right cab/mic/mic placement setup. And that can be a very time-consuming and error-prone process. En route to getting a good sound, the end user may experience audible fatigue just trying to mix and match all the individual components to derive a tone that sounds natural and good. 

So from that perspective, the Kemper is a very different animal from all the other common amp sims on the market today. I think it's approach of not separately modeling every device in the signal chain has helped it generate very authentic tones.


----------



## Steinmetzify

Metropolis said:


> For me Amplitube 4 falls into "it's okay category". Even if it has modeling approved by Mesa Boogie. What turns me off in Amplitube is pricing and GUI. Scuffham S-gear has amazing Mark IV model and TH3's Dual Recto is also very authentic, they have quite realistic knob reactions compared to anything else.



Just grabbed the demo for TH3 to compare. This is some decent stuff...I'd rate it equal for the Rectos in Amplitube, and the GUI is WAY better. 

Having some fun riffing around on the Randalls and 5150s too.


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## AkiraSpectrum

Did a QUICK demo of Amplitube4, Helix, and BIAS FX with their Mesa Recto models. The amplitube track has periodic white noise (likely because its the free demo). The Helix is using an OwnHammer IR.
None of the tracks have any EQ or HP/LP filters, etc. they are just raw tracks.

https://soundcloud.com/michael-sherbert/sets/amp-sim-vst-shootout-amplitube4-helix-bias-fx


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## NosralTserrof

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Did a QUICK demo of Amplitube4, Helix, and BIAS FX with their Mesa Recto models. The amplitube track has periodic white noise (likely because its the free demo). The Helix is using an OwnHammer IR.
> None of the tracks have any EQ or HP/LP filters, etc. they are just raw tracks.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/michael-sherbert/sets/amp-sim-vst-shootout-amplitube4-helix-bias-fx



Hey man, great shootout, but could you see about using the Ownhammer IR for both Bias and amplitube as well as the helix? I think that'd be a more accurate shootout IMO, being able to compare/contrast with the IR set as a neutralizing point.


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## billinder33

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Did a QUICK demo of Amplitube4, Helix, and BIAS FX with their Mesa Recto models. The amplitube track has periodic white noise (likely because its the free demo). The Helix is using an OwnHammer IR.
> None of the tracks have any EQ or HP/LP filters, etc. they are just raw tracks.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/michael-sherbert/sets/amp-sim-vst-shootout-amplitube4-helix-bias-fx



Great shootout!!! To my ear the AmpliTube is the winner here. It represents that distinctive Boogie growl best of the 3 and is more balanced across the frequency spectrum. This shootout re-confirmed my option from my recent test drive of AmpliTube (which I wrote about upstream in this thread).... that the newest version of AmpliTube really is great sounding piece of software.

Bias is a distant second for me, not bad, but definitely not as full sounding across the low mids, and forgoes some of the Mesa growl that the AmpliTube has while leaning a little more toward 'fizzy'.

The Helix was a distant third for me, thin and really fizzy at the top end, especially during solos. There may be some mixes where the Helix sits better overall, for instance in a case where you're not looking for a guitar-forward mix and the guitar occasionally pops through thick layers of non-guitar instrumentation. I'm guessing most people on this forum aren't typically writing/recording music where guitar is taking a back seat to thick layers of orchestration.

BTW, you can get rid of the white noise by keeping the Custom Shop application (which should have installed with the rest of the package) open while you're demoing the software.


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

NosralTserrof said:


> Hey man, great shootout, but could you see about using the Ownhammer IR for both Bias and amplitube as well as the helix? I think that'd be a more accurate shootout IMO, being able to compare/contrast with the IR set as a neutralizing point.



Thanks! Yes, using the same IR would have resulted in a more accurate comparison, but this 'shootout' wasn't meant to be an 'all things the same minus preamp across vst's', it was more about me being able to find something that sounded good without really tweaking anything by using what was available within the VST itself. Because I don't have BIAS AMP PRO (only BIAS FX std edition) I wasn't able to use the IR loader and I don't think Amplitube has a built-in IR loader either.

If I get some time before my trials (Helix and Amplitube) run out I may look into finding an external IR loader and do a 3-way comparison with all using the same IR.



billinder33 said:


> Great shootout!!! To my ear the AmpliTube is the winner here. It represents that distinctive Boogie growl best of the 3 and is more balanced across the frequency spectrum. This shootout re-confirmed my option from my recent test drive of AmpliTube (which I wrote about upstream in this thread).... that the newest version of AmpliTube really is great sounding piece of software.
> 
> Bias is a distant second for me, not bad, but definitely not as full sounding across the low mids, and forgoes some of the Mesa growl that the AmpliTube has while leaning a little more toward 'fizzy'.
> 
> The Helix was a distant third for me, thin and really fizzy at the top end, especially during solos. There may be some mixes where the Helix sits better overall, for instance in a case where you're not looking for a guitar-forward mix and the guitar occasionally pops through thick layers of non-guitar instrumentation. I'm guessing most people on this forum aren't typically writing/recording music where guitar is taking a back seat to thick layers of orchestration.
> 
> BTW, you can get rid of the white noise by keeping the Custom Shop application (which should have installed with the rest of the package) open while you're demoing the software.



Thanks! If I remember correctly I did have Custom Shop open, otherwise the Mesa Boogie Dual Rec would not have worked--so i'm not too sure why I was getting static, unless it had to do with the trial version restriction? *puzzled*

Yeah, I too was/am blown away by the Amplitube 4 vst, it sounds really good, very authentic 'in the room' sound, in my opinion. In other words, it sounds like I am listening to the amp as if I were standing in front of it. The big problem with Amplitube 4 is that I absolutely despise the UI. I also don't quite understand what I can and can't do with selecting certain amp models and saving presets etc. In addition, I find that I'm not exactly sure how paying for everything works either. Is it possible to run the free version and then just buy some amps and effects? Or do I have to buy the basic version for $150 first? 

A lot of the fizz of the Helix can be dialed out fairly easily with an EQ pedal in the 2-4K range. Although doing this kind of takes away some of the tones 'life' and 'bounce' in my opinion. 

BIAS FX (which I own) is interesting because out of the 3 it is probably the least realistic in terms of gain and OD interaction. Without an OD amp models don't have the gain or 'power' that a real life amp should; in other words, you need an OD or boost or EQ to give you a more realistic sound. The issue--while small--is that I find the OD (the TubeScreamer 808) to be too dramatic, to the point where I have to turn the level and tone down significantly, because even with the gain and tone at 0 and the level at noon it sounds like I'm running the tone and level at 10 on the other VST's. Not a big deal, but just something I've noticed.


----------



## billinder33

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Yeah, I too was/am blown away by the Amplitube 4 vst, it sounds really good, very authentic 'in the room' sound, in my opinion. In other words, it sounds like I am listening to the amp as if I were standing in front of it. The big problem with Amplitube 4 is that I absolutely despise the UI. I also don't quite understand what I can and can't do with selecting certain amp models and saving presets etc.



Strange that you still got the hiss even having the Custom Shop open (I'm using a mac, so not sure if that makes a difference).

I was ok with the UI in general, probably because I found TH3 so frustrating on my 13' Mac Air screen. But the one thing I don't understand is why Amplitube has 8 preset routing options, rather than just letting the user pick their own routing schemes. It took me a while to figure out how the flow of these different routing schemes impacted mono and stereo output.



AkiraSpectrum said:


> In addition, I find that I'm not exactly sure how paying for everything works either. Is it possible to run the free version and then just buy some amps and effects? Or do I have to buy the basic version for $150 first?



I plunked down the $500 for Amplitube Max yesterday by purchasing through the Custom Shop app. Most (but not all - like 95%) of the amp, cab, mic, pedal, and outboard models are available in Max (a few ). You can buy individually through the Custom Shop app as well, but I typically just buy bundles anyhow. One thing that really irked me was many of the Boogie presets rely use a Boogie slanted cab, and that cab did was not included in the Max bundle, so many of the patches throw a warning dialog box. Many of the other included cabs work great as a replacement, but a huge selling point Amplitube markets with Max is that you're getting all the Boogie amps, so I don't understand why they wouldn't throw in the cab that most of the Boogie presets include. Annoying!!! 

Here's everything that's not included in Max, in case you're wondering: 

2 Fulltone rack modules
Ampeg amps SVT-VR, V-48, Heritage B-15N and corresponding cabs
7 of 21 Fender Amps and their corresponding cabs (mostly the '57 models)
Mesa 4x12 Reco Slant cab and 2x12 Transatlantic cab

There's so much more in in this bundle than I'll ever use... it was the variety of rack and pedal FX that I wanted more than a hundred vintage amp and cab models I'll never use. So the few excluded models are not a big deal for me personally, it's more of an annoyance that you buy their top end bundle and still don't get everything included. It's like they want to squeeze a few extra bucks out of the consumer via those Boogie cabs and the annoying dialog boxes when you pull up a dependent preset.


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

billinder33 said:


> Strange that you still got the hiss even having the Custom Shop open (I'm using a mac, so not sure if that makes a difference).
> 
> I was ok with the UI in general, probably because I found TH3 so frustrating on my 13' Mac Air screen. But the one thing I don't understand is why Amplitube has 8 preset routing options, rather than just letting the user pick their own routing schemes. It took me a while to figure out how the flow of these different routing schemes impacted mono and stereo output.
> 
> 
> 
> I plunked down the $500 for Amplitube Max yesterday by purchasing through the Custom Shop app. Most (but not all - like 95%) of the amp, cab, mic, pedal, and outboard models are available in Max (a few ). You can buy individually through the Custom Shop app as well, but I typically just buy bundles anyhow. One thing that really irked me was many of the Boogie presets rely use a Boogie slanted cab, and that cab did was not included in the Max bundle, so many of the patches throw a warning dialog box. Many of the other included cabs work great as a replacement, but a huge selling point Amplitube markets with Max is that you're getting all the Boogie amps, so I don't understand why they wouldn't throw in the cab that most of the Boogie presets include. Annoying!!!
> 
> Here's everything that's not included in Max, in case you're wondering:
> 
> 2 Fulltone rack modules
> Ampeg amps SVT-VR, V-48, Heritage B-15N and corresponding cabs
> 7 of 21 Fender Amps and their corresponding cabs (mostly the '57 models)
> Mesa 4x12 Reco Slant cab and 2x12 Transatlantic cab
> 
> There's so much more in in this bundle than I'll ever use... it was the variety of rack and pedal FX that I wanted more than a hundred vintage amp and cab models I'll never use. So the few excluded models are not a big deal for me personally, it's more of an annoyance that you buy their top end bundle and still don't get everything included. It's like they want to squeeze a few extra bucks out of the consumer via those Boogie cabs and the annoying dialog boxes when you pull up a dependent preset.



Yeah that's a rip that you don't get that cab after you paid for 'everything'. Congrats on the purchase though, the sound from Amplitube is top-notch!

Due to my current monetary situation I just can't afford amplitube. Maybe in the future I could grab the basic for $150 and then buy the Mesa Dual rec and cab, but I still wouldn't have what I would want (a 5150 model for instance). At the moment I can't justify the extra expense unfortunately, and I can get some good tones from BIAS FX--even better than the shootout I just did--especially when I play around with cab and mic settings.


----------



## billinder33

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Yeah that's a rip that you don't get that cab after you paid for 'everything'. Congrats on the purchase though, the sound from Amplitube is top-notch!
> 
> Due to my current monetary situation I just can't afford amplitube. Maybe in the future I could grab the basic for $150 and then buy the Mesa Dual rec and cab, but I still wouldn't have what I would want (a 5150 model for instance). At the moment I can't justify the extra expense unfortunately, and I can get some good tones from BIAS FX--even better than the shootout I just did--especially when I play around with cab and mic settings.



Yeah, I didn't demo the BIAS before testing some of these other sim packages because I didn't understand their bundling model... their website isn't very clear on what the different product bundles are. And the bundles aren't cheap either. Currently 'on sale' at $549 for Guitar Complete and $649 for Studio Platinum. Yikes!!

That said, I've heard great things about BIAS. Most of the people who have it and even compared it to others say it's as good or better than the other sim packages. It looks like Positive Grid's approach is a little different, which I respect as well. Someday I'll spend some time demo'ing it. Hope it won't make me regret the investment in AmpliTube!!!


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

billinder33 said:


> Yeah, I didn't demo the BIAS before testing some of these other sim packages because I didn't understand their bundling model... their website isn't very clear on what the different product bundles are. And the bundles aren't cheap either. Currently 'on sale' at $549 for Guitar Complete and $649 for Studio Platinum. Yikes!!
> 
> That said, I've heard great things about BIAS. Most of the people who have it and even compared it to others say it's as good or better than the other sim packages. It looks like Positive Grid's approach is a little different, which I respect as well. Someday I'll spend some time demo'ing it. Hope it won't make me regret the investment in AmpliTube!!!


 
In my opinion, I think Amplitube sounds more realistic (tonally more complex sounding). BIAS FX can great some really nice tones though, and the UI is extremely simple and intuitive. For me it was/is the best all-in-one package at such a cheap price point. BIAS products often go on sale too, so when I got BIAS FX Standard it was $99, and its currently on sale for $69, with the PRO version (more amps, more effects) at 169. Bias AMP (standard on sale $69) is cool but I'm not interested in 'deep tweaking/editing' of Amp models, although BIAS AMP Pro version ($169) does offer an IR Loader, which is nice.


----------



## Elric

I like AT4 and Bias both. Bias has taken a long time to grow on me, and I find it more work to get good tones but some of my Bias tones that are fully tweaked are way up there in my personal satisfaction ranking. A number of them are based on personal amp matches and then deeply tweaked from there. I do not find the Bias amp match nearly as good as the AxeFx tone match. It is more on par (probably a little better) than the Revalver ACT combo thing. So most of my Amp matches I have heavily EQ and whatnot afterward. BUT once it is there it can be tranferred to my iOS device, etc. Great fun!

AT4 is a little more plug and play with amp tones and the cab room is really well done (still wish IRs were an option too but you can do it externally). AT4 has a bunch of OOOLD amp models in there though. Those new Mesas/Oranges/Fenders trounce everything else in the catalog. Even the Slash models, the Soldano, and and some of the other CS stuff could use some updating not to mention all those old AT original models. I can barely abide ATs FX. Bias FX, TH3, Native, just about anything except maybe Revalver or amp only sims are more satisfying for me than the AT4 FX.

My personal King of the Hill as a total package is still TH3, I guess... amp tones are mostly great with just a few clunkers, no fizz issues, IR support, very very good FX; interface is the only let down.

I would rank Native in the Revalver 4 range amp tones wise. It is way up there for FX for me, though. Top two or three.

So they all have their strengths and weaknesses. I had been hoping that Native would just force a total reset on everyone: UI, Amps, FX but I am in wait and see mode. I do think L6 will commit to keeping it updated with the main Helix.


----------



## AkiraSpectrum

Sorry everyone, had to do another shootout, this time with a wider variety of amp models (usually 2 per VST). Different guitar, tuning, and riffs on this one. Like the previous shootout Helix has OwnHammer IRs while the others are stock cab modeling. For each 'part' I chose which amp model sounded best in that situation so its less about comparing amp models and more about comparing what the vst's can do in general with raw tracks.

https://soundcloud.com/michael-sherbert/sets/amp-sim-vst-test-part-2-amplitube-helix-bias-fx

Details:
Part 1: Bias FX with OD pedal into JCM800 model with 4x12 v30 cab
Part 2: Bias FX with OD pedal into 5150 model with 4x12 v30 cab.
Part 3: Bias FX with OD pedal into 5150 model with 4x12 v30 cab with Reverb.

Part 1: Helix with OD pedal into 5150 model with Mesa 4x12 v30 cab.*
Part 2: Helix with OD pedal into Archon model with Mesa 4x12 v30 cab.*
Part 3: Helix with OD pedal into 5150 model with Mesa 4x12 v30 cab* with Reverb.
*Mesa 4x12 v30 cab IR from Ownhammer

Part 1: Amplitube with OD pedal into Soldano model with Mesa 2x12 v30 cab
Part 2: Amplitube with OD pedal into Soldano model with Mesa 2x12 v30 cab.
Part 3: Amplitube with OD pedal into Mesa DualRec model with Mesa 2x12 v30 cab with Reverb.

Gear: Gibson Les Paul Menace in Eb Standard in Part 1, Drop C# in Part 2.
-D'addario NYXL 11-49 strings.
-Stock Gibson pickups (498t and 490r w/ modified pole pieces that come stock).


----------



## billinder33

Elric said:


> AT4 has a bunch of OOOLD amp models in there though. Those new Mesas/Oranges/Fenders trounce everything else in the catalog. Even the Slash models, the Soldano, and and some of the other CS stuff could use some updating not to mention all those old AT original models. I can barely abide ATs FX. Bias FX, TH3, Native, just about anything except maybe Revalver or amp only sims are more satisfying for me than the AT4 FX.



Having spent a little more time with AT4, I agree with this assessment. I'm a huge Mesa Mark series fan and the Mesa models in AT4, especially the Mark IV, really scratch that itch. Even better than the Kemper in some ways. The Engl is pretty satisfying as well.



> My personal King of the Hill as a total package is still TH3, I guess... amp tones are mostly great with just a few clunkers, no fizz issues, IR support, very very good FX; interface is the only let down.



I found the 'Mesa' models ok in TH3, but way short of the AT4 Mesas. I felt like TH3 went all in on the Lynch models, which were mostly good, some overlap redundancy, some not so appealing, but none were really a tone I could connect with. I also thought the options on the TH3 amps felt limited, where as many of the AT4 models give the end user many more front panel options. 

I really liked the Metropolitan amp in TH3 as something very different from what I'm used to. I've never heard of that amp before and wish AT4 had it.... I'd love to have that tone as my lightly-distorted/mild-crunch tone. It's the one thing I'll really miss when my TH3 demo expires!!


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## billinder33

AkiraSpectrum said:


> Sorry everyone, had to do another shootout, this time with a wider variety of amp models (usually 2 per VST). Different guitar, tuning, and riffs on this one. Like the previous shootout Helix has OwnHammer IRs while the others are stock cab modeling. For each 'part' I chose which amp model sounded best in that situation so its less about comparing amp models and more about comparing what the vst's can do in general with raw tracks.
> 
> https://soundcloud.com/michael-sherbert/sets/amp-sim-vst-test-part-2-amplitube-helix-bias-fx
> 
> Details:
> Part 1: Bias FX with OD pedal into JCM800 model with 4x12 v30 cab
> Part 2: Bias FX with OD pedal into 5150 model with 4x12 v30 cab.
> Part 3: Bias FX with OD pedal into 5150 model with 4x12 v30 cab with Reverb.
> 
> Part 1: Helix with OD pedal into 5150 model with Mesa 4x12 v30 cab.*
> Part 2: Helix with OD pedal into Archon model with Mesa 4x12 v30 cab.*
> Part 3: Helix with OD pedal into 5150 model with Mesa 4x12 v30 cab* with Reverb.
> *Mesa 4x12 v30 cab IR from Ownhammer
> 
> Part 1: Amplitube with OD pedal into Soldano model with Mesa 2x12 v30 cab
> Part 2: Amplitube with OD pedal into Soldano model with Mesa 2x12 v30 cab.
> Part 3: Amplitube with OD pedal into Mesa DualRec model with Mesa 2x12 v30 cab with Reverb.
> 
> Gear: Gibson Les Paul Menace in Eb Standard in Part 1, Drop C# in Part 2.
> -D'addario NYXL 11-49 strings.
> -Stock Gibson pickups (498t and 490r w/ modified pole pieces that come stock).



Another great shootout. I thought the Helix was a lot more competitive in this round, but I'd still rank it 3rd. Actually, I thought they were all a lot closer than in the previous shootouts. 

I still prefer the AT4, and I think the reason is that there's something additional in the low-mids that gives it a feel of 'moving air', which I don't get from the Helix or Bias. 

In a full mix, that bump in frequencies may or may not be desirable, depending upon the other instruments involved. It may end up needing to be EQ'd out, making the post-processed track sound a lot like Helix or Bias after all. YMMV...


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## AkiraSpectrum

billinder33 said:


> Another great shootout. I thought the Helix was a lot more competitive in this round, but I'd still rank it 3rd. Actually, I thought they were all a lot closer than in the previous shootouts.
> 
> I still prefer the AT4, and I think the reason is that there's something additional in the low-mids that gives it a feel of 'moving air', which I don't get from the Helix or Bias.
> 
> In a full mix, that bump in frequencies may or may not be desirable, depending upon the other instruments involved. It may end up needing to be EQ'd out, making the post-processed track sound a lot like Helix or Bias after all. YMMV...



Thanks! 

I don't have any full songs with multiple tracks to mix so I don't know how easy or well these guitar tracks would fit into a full mix but I'd definitely be curious to see which are easiest to work with.

I've said it before but I'll say it again, AT4 (The Official Mesa Dual rec + Mesa 2x12) sounds like i'm listening to that amp in the room. I love how detailed all of the strings are in the chord. It's very realistic/genuine and musical. Without question, it is the amp sim that is most enjoyable to play/hear (either just noodling by myself or playing along to music). I will say the Official Orange Rockerverb and matching cab sim I tried was pretty good but not as authentic as the Official Mesa sims. Yes, you get more 'air/thickness/detail' with AT4's Mesa sims for sure!

Helix sounds very raw and replicates the sound you'd get if you were listening to the amp through monitors in a studio. You have to use the EQ or filters on most amp models to dial out some of the highs and fizziness if you want a pristine sound that most of us have become accustomed to. The Helix for high gain is probably the least 'enjoyable' for me when playing along to music or riffing by myself.

BIAS FX is sounds good and is easy to use for cheap. Sounds good without much trouble/tweaking and is fairly inexpensive, especially if you are satisfied with the cheaper 'std' version of BIAS FX like I am.


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## niffnoff

I feel with every new amp sim, there's always gonna be the preference debate. I think I've flip flopped 100's of times between loving Kazrog and Bias. When Helix dropped I tried the demo and personally, I prefer it to both options. More so because Bias FX doesn't give me the complete experience that Line 6 did with POD Farm, and Helix is merely a leap and bound sonically for me. I think we all have to remember our ears and preferences are subjective. I think Helix is more darker sounding than the previous things we've heard (I really did not like HD to my ears) and I'm glad they have made something that gives us an option that's not POD Farm.


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## brutalwizard

Not condoning or anything, and if you'll note i am one of the only people here that bought native. But it has already been "decrypted". Isn't that basically the reason fractal never vst'ed their proprietary software??


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## AkiraSpectrum

brutalwizard said:


> Not condoning or anything, and if you'll note i am one of the only people here that bought native. But it has already been "decrypted". Isn't that basically the reason fractal never vst'ed their proprietary software??



Well that was fast.


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## mikah912

Line 6 knew it was going to happen. Decided it was worth it. They're right.


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## niffnoff

Superior was also cracked the same day of release... I still bought both pieces of software cause I love the products. Who cares if it does get pirated? Least I don't feel like a POS when I do demos for people with legit software.


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## Guitarjon

Here is a demonstration of helix native in 9 different styles:


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## Guitarjon

Tutorial:


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## AkiraSpectrum

I went back and spent some more time on the Line 6 Helix as I felt others were getting much better tones than I was originally. 
I ended up figuring out why I think I was having so many issues with it, the input volume. I saw that Helix has an input volume range, and my input was exceeding that range (sometimes by a lot), so I lowered the volume and viola! 
Now I am absolutely loving Helix Native; even the stock cabs are sounding pretty good now too, although i still prefer IR's (Redwire and Ownhammer IR's). Now I just need a small fortune to purchase it, lol.
When I go back to Bias FX I miss the realism that I am now getting with Helix. Helix offers a much warmer and more genuine/realistic low end in my opinion.


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## metal_sam14

I've been using Helix for a while now and got Native recently for the convenience in the studio. Here are a few videos with Native used for the tones:


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## Winspear

metal_sam14 said:


> I've been using Helix for a while now and got Native recently for the convenience in the studio. Here are a few videos with Native used for the tones:



Sounds great man !


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## Winspear

Had to pull the trigger. 30% off with code cyber30 until the 3rd Dec  looking forward to trying it out this month.


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## duffbeer33

Winspear said:


> Had to pull the trigger. 30% off with code cyber30 until the 3rd Dec  looking forward to trying it out this month.



What a deal! Had to pull the trigger here as well.


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## rahnvu

I would if i could. *sniffles*


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## AkiraSpectrum

metal_sam14 said:


> I've been using Helix for a while now and got Native recently for the convenience in the studio. Here are a few videos with Native used for the tones:




Sounds awesome!


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## inaudio

I decided to try out the 15 day trial version of the plugin and while the Axe-Fx feels nicer to play, having a plug-in is just so much more convenient that I've decided to sell the Axe-Fx. All I ever really used on the Axe was a Friedman, 5150 and AC30 with a bunch of delays and reverbs and this plugin does all of that at a level that's good enough for me.


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## capac

I bought an LT last year and it's pretty amazing once you use 3rd party IRs.

The only thing is that there isn't as many amps as on the axe fx (51503, VH4... at least BE100 is coming). There is still the trusty 5150 I now use for all of my high gain.


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## Avedas

capac said:


> I bought an LT last year and it's pretty amazing once you use 3rd party IRs.
> 
> The only thing is that there isn't as many amps as on the axe fx (51503, VH4... at least BE100 is coming). There is still the trusty 5150 I now use for all of my high gain.


I also got an LT last year and once I got a couple Ownhammer packs and learned how to dial in the EQ cuts everything really opened up. Now the BE-100 is out and it's my new favorite. Goddamn it sounds good, and the new Lonestar is killer too.


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## Winspear

inaudio said:


> I decided to try out the 15 day trial version of the plugin and while the Axe-Fx feels nicer to play, having a plug-in is just so much more convenient that I've decided to sell the Axe-Fx. All I ever really used on the Axe was a Friedman, 5150 and AC30 with a bunch of delays and reverbs and this plugin does all of that at a level that's good enough for me.



Indeed. Nothing beats plugin workflow. Fractal have had a VST ever since the Axe FX Standard but didn't release it due to piracy and CPU usage concerns. I've always thought it would have made sense to just release it and use the unit as a hardware dongle and CPU processor for the plugin like UAD do. It would make a lot of sense.


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## Smoked Porter

Bumping this.

For people who have used both Native and the rack, floor, or LT versions, would you say that Native sounds the same as its hardware counterparts? I've tried Native demo out for a few days now and wasn't that impressed, even with outside IRs. I ask because unfortunately, I might have to sell my Kemper. I was thinking the cheaper HX stomp could be a possible replacement for the time being, but if the tones are the same as what I was getting in the plugin, I guess that's out.


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## mikah912

Smoked Porter said:


> Bumping this.
> 
> For people who have used both Native and the rack, floor, or LT versions, would you say that Native sounds the same as its hardware counterparts? I've tried Native demo out for a few days now and wasn't that impressed, even with outside IRs. I ask because unfortunately, I might have to sell my Kemper. I was thinking the cheaper HX stomp could be a possible replacement for the time being, but if the tones are the same as what I was getting in the plugin, I guess that's out.



Very similar, but that depends on the interface. If you have a good interface with a true Hi-Z input...should be pretty close. And before you give up, may I recommend you check out Sinmix's Helix preset/IR pack?


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## GunpointMetal

Smoked Porter said:


> Bumping this.
> 
> For people who have used both Native and the rack, floor, or LT versions, would you say that Native sounds the same as its hardware counterparts? I've tried Native demo out for a few days now and wasn't that impressed, even with outside IRs. I ask because unfortunately, I might have to sell my Kemper. I was thinking the cheaper HX stomp could be a possible replacement for the time being, but if the tones are the same as what I was getting in the plugin, I guess that's out.


It's the exact same algorithms. I can load my floor patches into Native and it sounds the same through my monitors. If the Kemper is your benchmark, you're probably not gonna be happy playing through any of the "modelers", but honestly if you can't get good tones out of the Helix hardware or software, something is wrong.


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## Smoked Porter

@mikah912 @GunpointMetal Thanks for the replies. I get decent sounds out of it, but nothing that really excites me so far. Just my tastes, I don't think there's something wrong about that. I'll keep dicking around and seeing what happens until the trial expires, but I can't really be spending money on IRs for a demo product that I'm not sure I want to keep. If I come across a Helix in a Guitar Center later on I'll probably try it out there anyway.


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## GunpointMetal

Smoked Porter said:


> @mikah912 @GunpointMetal Thanks for the replies. I get decent sounds out of it, but nothing that really excites me so far. Just my tastes, I don't think there's something wrong about that. I'll keep dicking around and seeing what happens until the trial expires, but I can't really be spending money on IRs for a demo product that I'm not sure I want to keep. If I come across a Helix in a Guitar Center later on I'll probably try it out there anyway.


Grab the Allure IR pack that Line 6 is giving away for free. Quite a few good ones in there.


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## GunpointMetal

Also, try doing a dual-amp tone with the Placater Dirty and the Line 6 Modded 2204. Those models are super fun.


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## Smoked Porter

Cool, I'll do that. The Modded 2204 is one of the amps I like most on it already.


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## GunpointMetal

That one really shines loud and live through a decent monitor, too. The Placater with the saturation and fat engaged is pretty dope, too.


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## mikah912

Or even just the Archon with the Stupor/SD1 on default settings in front and one of the Ownhammer free Mesa IRs. Like this:


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## Spaced Out Ace

If I had a Helix and was doing a hair metal cover band thing, I'd use that patch, Mikah.


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