# Alternate picking woes



## wertyase5 (Aug 18, 2013)

So I'm in a huge rut; I have these 16th note triplet runs in two of my solos and I've done what every guitarist ever says to do: play slowly, work up to the next tempo, push youself a little but not a lot blah blah. ANYWAY, it seems like one day I can progress from 96 to 100 and EVEN to 104, and then the next be struggling to even stay clean at 92. WTF!? My target tempo is 116 and the other is 120. It's incredibly frustrating and I HAVE to know: am I the only person who experiences this phenomenon? It's infuriating and as far as I know, I'm contrlling all the variables from day to day that would normally curb progress.

I realize it takes time, but exactly how much? I've really nailed down on my technique fo rthe last couple months and my goal is to have my targets acheived by next month. Is that unrealistic?


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## Edoris (Aug 18, 2013)

How much do you practice them every day?

One technique that helped me with alternate picking was playing through different note values. So i would start with crotchets then go quavers then triplet quavers then semi-quavers then triplet semi-quavers. Maybe something like that would help?

I know when i was first learning sweeps i would just sit in front of the tv going through all the sweeps i knew really slowly. It was only after 3 months of practicing every day for a couple hours at varying speeds that i was able to pull them off at a reasonable tempo haha

Keep at it! You can do it!


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## TallestFiddle (Aug 18, 2013)

My suggestion would be: Don't write songs you can't play. There's no need to make things overly complex. Just play what you can, and over time your technique will get better, and your speed will improve. Music shouldn't be frustrating.

Of course, if you do want your speed to increase, you're going about it the right way, speeding up gradually with a metronome. But if I were you I wouldn't set timetables of when to get to a certain speed. Just progress as much as you can naturally without frustrating yourself.


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## tyler_faith_08 (Aug 18, 2013)

I think that everyone runs into this. It gets to a point (IME) where you just have to sit down and play with the song, trying your best to nail it until you get it right. I had to do this with some of Tony MacAlpine's stuff. Sweeps are nothing more than pains in the ass. The sound cool, but still. So many hours of my life gone...


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## Robrecht (Aug 18, 2013)

Edoris said:


> How much do you practice them every day?
> 
> One technique that helped me with alternate picking was playing through different note values. So i would start with crotchets then go quavers then triplet quavers then semi-quavers then triplet semi-quavers. Maybe something like that would help?
> 
> ...



A long time ago, my piano teacher taught me a trick for practicing difficult passages that you just can't seem to progress with. The idea is to play the part, slowly at first and using a metronome of course, in a kind of exaggerated swing rhythm (with alternating note lengths, long-short-long-short). After you've mastered it that way, you play it in the 'reverse' rhythm (short-long-short-long).

The longer notes give you a little more time, while the shorter notes force you to really fine-tune the transition to the next note and get it into your muscle memory. Alternating between the 'swing' and 'reverse swing' rhythms allows you to focus on even and odd notes separately.

I hope this explanation makes sense...


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## 80H (Aug 18, 2013)

Minimize the distance you need to travel. If you have to angle your neck up for your downstrokes and down for your upstrokes, do it. If you cut the distance you are traveling in half, you will typically double your speed (unless most of your speed is lost on contact, in which case you will need to choose a pick that breaks better or adjust your picking angle). Your neck doesn't have to stay in the same position while you play - anything that you can do to change the momentum of your pick is fair game. That includes moving your neck.


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## Given To Fly (Aug 18, 2013)

Being really good at alternate picking is actually really hard. Steve Vai was asked in a short interview, "What is hardest thing about playing the guitar?" and he responded, "Picking all the notes. Its a lot harder than most people think." While this may have sounded "tongue in cheek" in the interview, I think he was being completely honest. Your goal of sextuplets at 120 BPM is equal to 16ths at 180 BPM which is nothing to sneeze at!

In regards to how long it should take to see improvement, it all depends. Technical improvement generally isn't linear and doesn't always initially correspond with how much time you invest. In the long run though, the more time you commit, the more you'll improve. Also, don't be surprised if you suddenly see massive improvement over a very short period of time. Musicians tend to go through "plateaus" and "growth spurts" in their playing. If you feel like you are in a plateau, keep doing what you are doing but distract yourself with something else on the instrument at the same time. I feel the old saying "A watched pot never boils" can be applied to improving your technique to some extent. 

The two things that made a huge difference in my playing were:
1. How I practiced alternate picking - I went from playing whole scales with a metronome to playing just the most common single string patterns most common in 3 note per string scales. One of my weaknesses was the 1-3-4 pattern, so I adopted a quantity over quality approach and basically limited what I played to those 3 fingers. John Petrucci's mentality was to make his weaknesses his strengths; this sort of practice falls in line with that thought process.

2. I bought an unforgiving tube amp - Most of the time, gear doesn't make you better or worse, except when it does. I had been using an Eleven Rack for about a year when I got a great deal on Mesa Boogie Roadster. When the Roadster arrived and I first plugged into it my response was "Wow! This sounds awesome, but apparently, I kind of suck. " Digital modelers tend to be very forgiving, which is what i was used to with the Eleven Rack. In order to improve my alternate picking I always played through the Roadster and worked at speeds I could handle. Pretty soon, I was playing much faster than I ever could before but never faster than what the Roadster let me get away with, which is virtually nothing. The moral of the story is don't play through gear that forgives inconsistencies in your technique, you'll be better for it. On the creative side of things you can use whatever you want, but when you are practicing technique, a good unforgiving setup is a great tool! 

Now go have fun!!!...


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## The Reverend (Aug 19, 2013)

TallestFiddle said:


> My suggestion would be: Don't write songs you can't play. There's no need to make things overly complex. Just play what you can, and over time your technique will get better, and your speed will improve. Music shouldn't be frustrating.



I do the complete opposite. Nearly every song I've ever written has one or more phrases that I couldn't play to speed at first, or couldn't play clean enough to record. For me, the song comes first. If it needs a sweep to say what I need to say, the sweeps go in there, and I spend hours going into, out of, and looping the phrase until eventually I get it. It's frustrating, but I literally improve with each song I write.


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## Devyn Eclipse Nav (Aug 19, 2013)

I've noticed two things have helped me speed up my alternate picking - loosen your grip on the pick, to the point where you're barely holding onto it. If you've got a deathgrip on it, you'll sorta bounce off the string, but holding loosely allows you to go through the string.

It's difficult to explain, you just gotta try it.

The other thing was that if I'm doing something that's a pattern of 3 notes on one string, then one on a higher string, then back down (like the melody in the second half of By Your Command by Devin Townsend), start on the upstroke. It takes a bit of concentration at first, but made doing straight alternate picking for that part much easier, whereas in the past I relied on lots of legato.


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## tyler_faith_08 (Aug 19, 2013)

I 100% agree with The Reverend's post. I've done this with literally every one of my songs.


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## Spooky_tom (Aug 19, 2013)

Separate the hands. Can you do the picking pattern without the left hand? Can you finger the run without the right hand? Analyze and identify the problem. Alternate picking is mainly a right hand motor skill, so work on the hands separate and when they can do the task independently you put the two together.


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## SamRussell (Aug 20, 2013)

Try to work out what it is that causes the mistakes at higher speeds - is your fret board hand playing the wrong note, is your picking hand hitting the wrong string, are you accidentally throwing in a double stroke (down down, for example) in there?

Once you have that, set the metronome nice and slow and really focus on what you are doing as intensely as your mind can handle for 10-15 minutes, look at minimising and controlling all the movements you can, make sure you are completely aware of what hands are doing what and keeping your pick close to the strings. Pay just as much attention to your picking hand as you do your fret hand! If you tense up, stop, relax, then continue - you need to learn to play fast while being relaxed. 

Hope that helps!


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## viesczy (Aug 20, 2013)

Back when I was a neophyte on guitar (meaning the middle 80s), my guitar instructor had me work on synchronizing my two hands with 4 notes per string to develop both hands working together AND all fingers being the "lead" finger. 

So along with working on technique and jazz theory stuff (which just hurts my classical ears ) it was all muscle memory. Finger there are like 24 options per finger (when playing 4 notes per string), so that is 96 finger combinations. 

Then Gene got diabolical and started doing 8 note per string patterns, throwing string skipping in and all, he was relentless. Helped my technique to no end... sorta made me too much a mechanical player too.

Derek


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## Alphanumeric (Aug 24, 2013)

If the slow to fast technique isn't working and generally doesn't in most situ, the Shawn Lane approach, play at the tempo you need and focus on cleaning it up, since its a specific run.


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## Lifestalker (Aug 25, 2013)

SamRussell said:


> Try to work out what it is that causes the mistakes at higher speeds - is your fret board hand playing the wrong note, is your picking hand hitting the wrong string, are you accidentally throwing in a double stroke (down down, for example) in there?
> 
> Once you have that, set the metronome nice and slow and really focus on what you are doing as intensely as your mind can handle for 10-15 minutes, look at minimising and controlling all the movements you can, make sure you are completely aware of what hands are doing what and keeping your pick close to the strings. Pay just as much attention to your picking hand as you do your fret hand! If you tense up, stop, relax, then continue - you need to learn to play fast while being relaxed.
> 
> Hope that helps!



Great advice right here. Especially the part about tensing up. If you tense up, back off 5-10bpm and continue. I'm working on getting myself back up to speed after a long break from playing anything at all. It's going to be a LONG uphill battle.


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## BaDaML (Aug 25, 2013)

From what I read, it seems that you are not actually practicing correctly. "one day I can progress from 96 to 100 and EVEN to 104". Play for 4 or 5 days at the same tempo, 10-15 minutes each day. At the 3rd or 4th day, you should feel ready to move on to a faster tempo. Don't. Another day or two will really solidify your technique. Then bump up 5bpm or so. Same deal, 4 or 5 days. Figure around 6 weeks or so to get to where you want, but you WILL have it down.


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## Sam Scarrott (Aug 28, 2013)

BaDaML said:


> At the 3rd or 4th day, you should feel ready to move on to a faster tempo. Don't. Another day or two will really solidify your technique. Then bump up 5bpm or so. Same deal, 4 or 5 days. Figure around 6 weeks or so to get to where you want, but you WILL have it down.


 
this sounds good to me, solidify your technique. Have patience with yourself.


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## Jlang (Aug 28, 2013)

On top of what everyone is saying , please make sure you are practicing with an amp and not just 'unplugged' I know this sounds pretty obvious ; but if you aren't you are going to want to start.


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## wertyase5 (Aug 29, 2013)

Well you guys, I kind of opened the door to progress by maing a simple change to my technique: lifting my pinky off and allowing a fuller wrist turn. Since John Petrucci is my favorite guitarist, I figured since I naturally anchored my pinky like he does, I'd be fine. Ultimately, it was what was hindering me. My solo runs are now up to 100 (after some warming up) and I'm approaching 104. Things are looking up! It's made playing fun again and not so stressful. Still got some work to do though!


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## TheHandOfStone (Aug 29, 2013)

Funny you should mention that, actually. I know a lot of people get on well with anchoring parts of their picking hand, but I've always found it holds me back. I like to do a lot of string crosses and string skipping, and applying too much pressure with my right hand ....s that up for me by slowing down those transitions. Not only that, but I find it helps me keep the rest of my hand looser as well (for some reason). Plenty of great guys make anchoring look like a good idea, but a Shawn Lanesque hand float has serious benefits too.


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## tyler_faith_08 (Aug 29, 2013)

Personally, I don't stick to any one technique when practicing. I used to anchor a lot of the time, but now I basically just find a passage to practice and play it to a metronome while moving around (not just my hand) and just trying all of these crazy hand positions. I try doing it as effortlessly as possible, with as much emphsasis as possible, in this or that certain way, just whatever comes to mine. The biggest benefit from this is that it makes it MUCH easier to play in some awkward positions if you improvise and find yourself in a fix. Oh, and it allows you to find "your comfort spot" with hand positioning.

And what Jlang says is very true. It may seem like you're getting a good challenge, but you sit there and put all this time into perfecting the raw technique and once you plug in... Ghost notes; ghost notes everywhere.


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## CRaul87 (Aug 30, 2013)

The Reverend said:


> I do the complete opposite. Nearly every song I've ever written has one or more phrases that I couldn't play to speed at first, or couldn't play clean enough to record. For me, the song comes first. If it needs a sweep to say what I need to say, the sweeps go in there, and I spend hours going into, out of, and looping the phrase until eventually I get it. It's frustrating, but I literally improve with each song I write.



I don't think you understand exactly what he said, depends how much you compose above what you currently play... will it take you a few days to nail down the new composition or years? 
I've been totally guilty in the past of writing stuff that was so far out my reach that I had compositions on hold for a year basically just because I could not nail that solo or whatever, so I started limiting myself(I know that prob sounds bad to most ppl but stay with me) and what that lead me to was much more creative writing.
I wrote something that I could play in a reasonable amount of time and that sounded interesting as well and trust me, a few hip notes and cool phrasing make for much better music than just a super fast shred pattern that is not remotely as musical but it's fast.
Since I started limiting myself it has done nothing but make me more musical and creative, my phrasing has improved DRAMATICALLY!
And not to say that I have given up on playing fast... I haven't but what I learned is that you need to know what you are capable of at any stage of you guitar playing and never mix you compositions with stuff that you haven't mastered yet. Make music with what you can play and are good at, practice your weaknesses or what you wish to be able to play one day... and when that day comes just incorporate it.


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## tyler_faith_08 (Aug 31, 2013)

If you have an idea in your head, put it on paper or play it. This is the very best way to tailor your practice routine to how you play. If you write something and need to practice it, BAM! 

I practice and warm up to my solos. My first solo was difficult at the time. I could barely play it, so I sat down and practiced it repeatedly unitl I could nail it without warming up. My next one was MUCH more difficult and I've done the same with it. The pattern continues. What better practice routine is there than to practice something that you write, that comes from your mind, and that you need to work on for personal reasons that a cookie cutter routing can't give you?


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## David Portelli (Sep 2, 2013)

wertyase5 said:


> So I'm in a huge rut; I have these 16th note triplet runs in two of my solos and I've done what every guitarist ever says to do: play slowly, work up to the next tempo, push youself a little but not a lot blah blah. ANYWAY, it seems like one day I can progress from 96 to 100 and EVEN to 104, and then the next be struggling to even stay clean at 92. WTF!? My target tempo is 116 and the other is 120. It's incredibly frustrating and I HAVE to know: am I the only person who experiences this phenomenon? It's infuriating and as far as I know, I'm contrlling all the variables from day to day that would normally curb progress.
> 
> I realize it takes time, but exactly how much? I've really nailed down on my technique fo rthe last couple months and my goal is to have my targets acheived by next month. Is that unrealistic?



hey there,

as long as you know what you are doing and as long as you are practising perfectly... you'r on the right track.

people progress at different speeds so there's no answer to your question..

In all honesty though, each time I felt like I reached a plateau, the answer was never to practice more but rather to tackle a specific bottleneck..

When you play super fast, what's the first thing that breaks down in your playing? That's what you need to work on at slower tempos.

/Dave


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## SamRussell (Sep 2, 2013)

MoxaMortem said:


> Great advice right here. Especially the part about tensing up. If you tense up, back off 5-10bpm and continue. I'm working on getting myself back up to speed after a long break from playing anything at all. It's going to be a LONG uphill battle.



Tell me about it, improving technique seems like that sometimes!

Keep at it though and I'm sure you'll reach your goals


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## Chuck (Sep 8, 2013)

The Reverend said:


> I do the complete opposite. Nearly every song I've ever written has one or more phrases that I couldn't play to speed at first, or couldn't play clean enough to record. For me, the song comes first. If it needs a sweep to say what I need to say, the sweeps go in there, and I spend hours going into, out of, and looping the phrase until eventually I get it. It's frustrating, but I literally improve with each song I write.



It worked pretty well for Protest the Hero too


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## jimwratt (Sep 8, 2013)

This might sound silly, but do pushups, dips and pullups. The additional strength in your hands, arms, shoulders, and upper back will help. A big part of strength training is explosive contractions (i.e speed). When your body is in condition to move quickly, it will do just that. That definitely helped me out a lot. When I started lifting, I got faster.


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## BaDaML (Sep 8, 2013)

jimwratt said:


> This might sound silly, but do pushups, dips and pullups. The additional strength in your hands, arms, shoulders, and upper back will help. A big part of strength training is explosive contractions (i.e speed). When your body is in condition to move quickly, it will do just that. That definitely helped me out a lot. When I started lifting, I got faster.


When I started lifting, I got slower lol. Being in shape is never a bad thing though. I guess it also depends on the individual, and the goals you have in mind. 

I weighed 170lbs., and was benching 300 for 3 sets of 10 reps, then down to 260 for another 3-5 sets of 10. Never measured my chest, but my arms were 18.5 around after a workout  I was also taking Krav Maga. My speed on guitar slowed, but my aggression level sped up and increased quite a bit lol.


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