# Scott Plummer (Viraemia) 10 string bass with .266 at D0, new video



## ixlramp (May 16, 2017)

New video up and Scott has a Kalium .266 for his D0 (18Hz), that's an unusually big gauge for D0 and has a high tension of 52lbs. String abuse follows.

*MOD EDIT: Removed the silly rant. *

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltmIJTWEeXs

In case you have not seen this, the famous Viraemia playthrough video of technical death metal on 10 string bass ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FGVyk_TObCo


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## knispler (May 17, 2017)

Having owned basses with 5 and seven strings, I moved back to a four string Fender, because that is the range I see suitable and controllable for me. So I would never consider having more than 5 strings anymore. So, I do not see it necessary for me, but extreme instruments for extreme music.


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## marcwormjim (May 17, 2017)

The clip reminded me of Psyopus. Does he play any Behold...The Arctopus-type stuff on that thing, or is that just a stereotype?


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## MaxOfMetal (May 17, 2017)

*Let's keep the interforum bashing out of here. *


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## marcwormjim (May 17, 2017)

In all fairness, I was joking about *bass players*, and not the site.


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## iamaom (May 17, 2017)

While I'm not telling anyone what they should do with their art, I'm not a big fan of the string and tuning. I mean, 99% of people listening to his music will be over the internet on ....ty headphones via compressed youtube videos, so having an instrument where a large portion of it is inaudible doesn't seem like a very great idea. I've also watched his videos and the majority of his technique is sweeping on the higher strings and he barely even touches the lowest one. There are plenty of players that can utilize the full range of a 6 or even 7 string bass, but I definitley think there's a limit to the amount of actual work you can get done with an instrument in that style, he might as well play a chapman stick (which I'm very surpised more tech bands don't use).


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## Esp Griffyn (May 17, 2017)

Holy crap that sounds like ass. Sloppy as hell without the studio magic too.

I'm yet to hear any bassist who really makes a case for these crazy mega-ERBs. I remember them being really in fashion with a little crowd on Talkbass about 15 years ago but apart from doing a big of tapping and making hitting a root note on an open string here or there, no one was really using the range on them. A lot of the most popular stuff that used to get shared around using them could be comfortably played on 5 strings. Out of all of them, Yves Carbonne came the closest to making a real go of using the whole range, but his ability as a musician did vastly outstrip pretty much any of the other guys on the "scene".

Bill Dickens does make good use of his Conklin 7s full range, he is a monster player too but probably a bit beyond the taste of most on this forum.


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## ixlramp (May 17, 2017)

My rant was about some bass players, not just about a bass forum. You know how conservative many guitarists and bassists tend to be, which is why i'm here, and prefer to hang out with metal guitarists even though i only play basses. People here tend to be more open-minded and experimental.


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## ixlramp (May 17, 2017)

Esp Griffyn said:


> I'm yet to hear any bassist who really makes a case for these crazy mega-ERBs.


I agree it is difficult to find ERB music that you like, i think that is because there are so few of them there is a low probability of finding a musician who does something you like.


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## Nag (May 20, 2017)

I tried to listen closely around 1:04 when he starts playing faster.

I have no problem hearing that super low note when he lets it ring for a while. I can make out a note from under the string buzzing. But when he starts playing faster, the notes don't ring and all I hear is the buzzing, or almost. I can faintly distinguish a frequency moving a hair up and down when he plays, but that's it. The problem is that in this range, the notes are so crammed together because the frequencies are super close that it's hard for me to hear exactly what's going on. And that's just him playing by himself, not with a full band on top.

Having fun with low range is one thing, IMO this just goes beyond the capabilities of a human ear, so I don't see the point.


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## Hollowway (May 20, 2017)

My Quake is going to be tuned to C#0. I'm not sure what string will be on there (it'll be at 39.55" though), but it's only 5 strings. I have a MAS 112 that I play through, so hopefully that'll help as well. My F#0 tuned bass works really well through it.

I'd love a bass with lots of strings, but I think the scale needs to be substantially longer if one is to go that low. I know a few 10 string basses only go to 34" and B, which works. But the high notes are basically guitar territory. I'm all about atypical ranges on basses and guitars, but it is definitely hard to try to get them all on one instrument. 

My dream is to have a 34-28" guitar for 10 strings, and go down to G#0. But lord knows when I'll get it or who would be willing to take it on. My hope is that Tom Drinkwater will build it, but I've got some saving to do!y

EDIT: I certainly made this thread all about me, didn't I?


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## Winspear (May 21, 2017)

Good to see the high tension which I find is so important for such low notes. I just don't find notes that low useful at such speed, like Nagash said. Used slowly or in octaves they can be great, I tune to E0 myself with 41lbs tension on a fretless. On a fretted I prefer 45lbs or so to completely eliminate buzz which I think is very important for low pitches.


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## Baran (May 22, 2017)

wait wait wait. .266 for D0 18 hz? are you sure about this? Because .170-.180 is usually for F#0 23 hz. And .230~ is for C#0 17 hz. &#304;n Kaliums video, they use .266 for G#00 12 hz. Are you tune it too much? or you miscalculated the notes?


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## laxu (May 22, 2017)

You're going to need some serious amplification to get anything but overtones out of that. Pretty pointless I'd say. Listened to some Viraemia on YT and I can mostly just hear some high string wankery there.


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## ixlramp (May 22, 2017)

Overtones are the whole point of notes that low, a fundamental that low is useless and actually undesirable. This is somewhat the case for a low-B string too, at 31Hz most amps cannot reproduce the fundamental well, and don't need to, it still sounds good.

Baran i was a little shocked by the tension too, 52 lbs is heavy.

Nagash it's difficult to conciously recognise a note that low, but if played as an octave below another instrument (even played fast, as long as there are 2+ cycles played) your ears will register it as being an octave-down and in harmony.
Also, our ears hear a lot more on a subconcious level, and this is important and has an effect.

I am certainly not posting this thread as a good example of ERB use, i wrote 'string abuse follows' for a few reasons:
The pulling of the very tight low string so far to the side to demonstrate it, it would have been clearer plucked near the bridge.
He mentions how it has tightened up the behaviour of that string, and then proceeds to still play it with really excessive force.
Sloppy over-heavy playing that seems out of character compared to the Viraemia video which is one of the most impressive uses of ERB i have seen.
Still interesting though.


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## TheEmptyCell (May 22, 2017)

Not a good indication of his playing ability. But it makes the "Waaaa it isn't music" and "ERB's are pointless" crowds come out and show their ignorance, so I can dig it.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 23, 2017)

TheEmptyCell said:


> Not a good indication of his playing ability. But it makes the "Waaaa it isn't music" and "ERB's are pointless" crowds come out and show their ignorance, so I can dig it.


Music played on super ERBs is definitely music. 

I just have yet to hear any of it that isn't kind of ....ty music, or at best, mediocre and samey because of a lack of real ability to change the tonal character of the instrument. 

I think that's my real problem with it all to be honest - The wider range your instrument has, the more "locked in" you are to the one tone you've dialed in on your amp/modeller that allows the high strings to avoid shrillness and the bass strings to avoid muddiness. 

Not to mention the changes in technique required just to avoid NOT playing the strings you're maneuvering around (Fretwraps etc)

To me that's a massive loss in musical range that isn't made up for by the extra notes. Mainly because within reason, if you need a note you don't have, playing it in another octave usually doesn't ruin a song like, say, playing a palm muted rythm without palm muting can do.


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## Baran (May 23, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> Baran i was a little shocked by the tension too, 52 lbs is heavy.



You can try .230 it will have richer sound. But without multiscale with 37"+ scale lenght, this low notes can't produce good enough I think.


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## Insomnia (May 23, 2017)

Nothing below 'F0' is usable in a musical context, from what I've heard. Northlane's own Alex Milovic did a play-through of their song 'Rot' with a low F, and it sounds pretty good, but even then, it's pretty much at the limit.

I don't think there will ever be a music context for anything below that.


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## Insomnia (May 23, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> Music played on super ERBs is definitely music.
> 
> I just have yet to hear any of it that isn't kind of ....ty music, or at best, mediocre and samey because of a lack of real ability to change the tonal character of the instrument.
> 
> ...



Jean Baudin?? :O


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## GuitarBizarre (May 23, 2017)

Insomnia said:


> Jean Baudin?? :O


OK, I checked him out on youtube, 4 or 5 songs. It's pleasant. 

But every single one of the songs I found is syncopated two hand tapping in a certain vein of atmospheric, trance-like patterns. It doesn't really go anywhere texturally. Every part of every one of his songs could be in any one of his other songs and I probably wouldn't even notice. He's certainly not likely to kick on a drive pedal and get filthy as far as I can tell.

I think Scott Fernandez does more in terms of being able to sound different from song to song, but he mostly seems to have the same limits on the many-string basses.

Once again, I find myself just thinking "This person has a lot of notes to choose from, but very limited ways to play them"

On the other hand, I see someone like Victor Wooten or Billy Sheehan play bass, and I see them using way more finger technique to alter the sound, attack, timbre of each note. Their muting is more varied. Their choice of rythmic figure is more contrasting, etc etc. 

Maybe the mega-ERB has a place somewhere, but I remain unconvinced.


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## ixlramp (May 23, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> [...] because of a lack of real ability to change the tonal character of the instrument.
> 
> I think that's my real problem with it all to be honest - The wider range your instrument has, the more "locked in" you are to the one tone you've dialed in on your amp/modeller that allows the high strings to avoid shrillness and the bass strings to avoid muddiness.
> [...]
> To me that's a massive loss in musical range that isn't made up for by the extra notes. Mainly because within reason, if you need a note you don't have, playing it in another octave usually doesn't ruin a song like, say, playing a palm muted rythm without palm muting can do.


The reduction of tone variety only happens if the track you are currently playing / recording uses the whole range of the instrument, often ERBs are played only using a particular part of the range, or the player is using multiple tracks each with a certain range and tone.

As it is a combination guitar and bass, there is no restriction compared to using a guitar and a bass (and a sub-bass). In fact there is more possibility because there is no division of range, you may want to play a chord or a riff that cannot be played on either a guitar or bass, in the same way as a keyboard gives you an unbroken range of notes, instead of having to use a 'bass' keyboard and an 'alto' keyboard.

Imagine how weird it would be to only have small 3 or 4 octave keyboards and to always need multiple keyboards in a musical project, and to have 8-octave Pianofortes and 5, 6, 7 octave keyboards ridiculed.
This is what ERB is about, creating a 'full range guitar' because there is no reason not to have these.

In fact it is re-creating, a few hundred years ago we had common Archlutes and Theorbos with extreme number of strings, courses and extreme scales, more extreme than any modern ERB.
See the list of Lute tunings here http://www.lutesociety.org/pages/lute-tuning
Note the 19-course Baroque Theorbo starting at 5 string bass B0:
19	Baroque	Theorbo	A	A3	E3	B3	G3	D3	A2	G2	F2	E2	D2	C2	B1	A1	G1	F1	E1	D1	C1	B0

Compared to the Baroque period modern guitar instruments are very simple, and the variety has until recently been extremely dull: 6 string guitars and 4 string basses all looking like Fenders. What happened is that Pianoforte became popular and killed off these ERGs. Our forum here is about the return of these instruments.

Playing a note in another octave cannot always be done, it luckily does not satisfy some musicians.


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## ixlramp (May 23, 2017)

Insomnia said:


> Nothing below 'F0' is usable in a musical context, from what I've heard. Northlane's own Alex Milovic did a play-through of their song 'Rot' with a low F, and it sounds pretty good, but even then, it's pretty much at the limit.
> 
> I don't think there will ever be a music context for anything below that.


Church organs have had C0 pipes (17Hz) (and lower) for a very long time and these notes used as an octave-down addition (much like modern metal) have a huge effect on the listener.


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## ixlramp (May 23, 2017)

GuitarBizarre said:


> On the other hand, I see someone like Victor Wooten or Billy Sheehan play bass, and I see them using way more finger technique to alter the sound, attack, timbre of each note. Their muting is more varied. Their choice of rythmic figure is more contrasting, etc etc.
> 
> Maybe the mega-ERB has a place somewhere, but I remain unconvinced.


As i wrote earlier, it's because there are so few ERB players there is a much lower probability of finding someone who makes music you like. Whereas there are millions of 4 string bass players. I feel similar in that very very few ERB players do something i like. You can't blame it on the instrument, they obviously cannot be inherently worse than guitars or basses because they are the combination of the 2.

An ERB has a place whereever a guitar or bass is used, you don't need to always use the whole range, just look at how Pianos and keyboards are so popular and many times the player is just playing a little tune within 2 or 3 octaves, we don't ridicule that of course.


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## ixlramp (May 23, 2017)

Baran said:


> Are you tune it too much? or you miscalculated the notes?


I am not Scott Plummer i just posted his video.


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## ixlramp (May 23, 2017)

Hehe i just read the comments on the video, exactly what you would expect.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 23, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> As i wrote earlier, it's because there are so few ERB players there is a much lower probability of finding someone who makes music you like. Whereas there are millions of 4 string bass players. I feel similar in that very very few ERB players do something i like. You can't blame it on the instrument, they obviously cannot be inherently worse than guitars or basses because they are the combination of the 2.
> 
> An ERB has a place whereever a guitar or bass is used, you don't need to always use the whole range, just look at how Pianos and keyboards are so popular and many times the player is just playing a little tune within 2 or 3 octaves, we don't ridicule that of course.


It's more than them not doing something I like. Plenty of it is pleasant enough. 

It's just that after about 20 minutes of listening to either one mega-ERB player, or several, I just cannot tell them apart, because they all seem to use essentially the same playing style. 

Also you're totally overegging the idea that you can choose to use only part of the range - sure you can, but guitars aren't pianos - the extra keys on a piano mute themselves. Basses don't. Hell, learning proper technique for muting extra strings is part of learning to play even a 4 string, or a 5. Guitarists complain about it all the time on their 8 strings too. The fact you have to worry so much about not accidentally making everything else ring out, is what dramatically impedes technique.



As for "cannot be worse than the two".... yes they can.


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## ixlramp (May 25, 2017)

Yeah i agree a lot of ERB tapping music gets boring, i'm not too keen on it either.

Just use a string damper on an ERB. However this stops open notes being played, so, if you want some strings damped and some not, cut some suitable lengths of damper material and slip them under the required strings.
However some ERB players are so skilled they don't even use dampers some of the time. They also tend to not be impeded to any significant degree by the wide neck.

> As for "cannot be worse than the two".... yes they can. 

What is it about a fanned-fret combination guitar plus bass that makes it inherently create bad music?
The context here is the quality of the music, you were unimpressed with the music produced, which is just down to what the particular artists do, not what instrument they were using. Imagine if Victor Wooten and Billy Sheehan were ERB players and did the high-quality stuff you like on those.
I wrote:

> As i wrote earlier, it's because there are so few ERB players there is a much lower probability of finding someone who makes music you like. Whereas there are millions of 4 string bass players. I feel similar in that very very few ERB players do something i like. You can't blame it on the instrument, they obviously cannot be inherently worse than guitars or basses because they are the combination of the 2.


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## GuitarBizarre (May 25, 2017)

You're just being intentionally obtuse at this point. 

The instrument demands adaptation from the player, even to do things that only utilise the range of a smaller instrument. There is more muting to do, more maneuvering around the things you're not using. That means if you're only intending on playing 6 strings, and you have the choice between 6 strings or 14, most players who aren't completely drinking the kool-aid will just play a 6 and give themselves an easier time. In that circumstance a 14 string monster bass COULD be used but it doesn't take a genius to realise there's a difference between *could* and *should*.


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## ixlramp (May 26, 2017)

Ok good point, so that is what you meant by 'worse'.
I wasn't being intentionally obtuse, it just seemed you were saying they were 'worse' as in they inherently made worse music, and i was interested why. It was a mixup of context.


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