# Anyone got harmonic and melodic minor caged stuff?



## Wolfster (Jul 22, 2007)

I was just wondering if anyone could post up the harmonic and melodic caged positions and 3-note per string position for all modes?


Cheers would be a great help.

sorry harmonic and melodic minor i meant to say


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## Nomad (Jul 22, 2007)

I could be wrong, but I don't think CAGED system accounts for "altered" scales such as harmonic minor. My understanding was that it was a purely diatonic system, meaning you could use it to make chords and scales that were within the key (modes are included here).

If you already have your minor scale patterns down, just raise the seventh up one step to play harmonic minor. Melodic minor is more complicated, because it is sometimes played differently when ascending than when descending.


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## Wolfster (Jul 22, 2007)

yeah cheers I am familiar with the theory.Was just wondering if anyone had it handy in tab or something as a quick reference thing.Especially the 3-note per string stuff.Thanks though


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## Nomad (Jul 23, 2007)

Jeez dude, what's the problem?

First google query: 3 note per string scales

Btw, if you are "familiar" with the theory, you wouldn't need to have a tab version of any scale. There's only 1 note difference between a natural minor and a harmonic minor. And only 2 notes different from a natural minor to a melodic minor. You don't need a tab for that do you?


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## Naren (Jul 23, 2007)

Nomad said:


> Jeez dude, what's the problem?
> 
> First google query: 3 note per string scales
> 
> Btw, if you are "familiar" with the theory, you wouldn't need to have a tab version of any scale. There's only 1 note difference between a natural minor and a harmonic minor. And only 2 notes different from a natural minor to a melodic minor. You don't need a tab for that do you?





This kind of stuff is annoying to type out and post on the forum, especially when it is SOOO easy to find on google. I would assume anyone with a knowledge of music theory would not need to look this up. I have a jazz book at home that has a huge index at the beginning of the book that just states the intervals in every single scale out there (something like 30-40 different scale types written). For example, augmented: 1 b3 3 5 #5 7 8. Tabs... are limiting, especially if you know theory.


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## Wolfster (Jul 23, 2007)

Im cryin inside


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## Metal Ken (Jul 23, 2007)

Caged?


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## Wolfster (Jul 23, 2007)

The CAGED system - Printer friendly


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## Bound (Jul 23, 2007)

The Guitar Grimoire can help you with some pretty righteous sweep patterns in harmonic minor. They are definately, mostly, not caged.


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## Metal Ken (Jul 23, 2007)

well, i mean, anything written in the caged ideal is going to be in multiple keys... So you'd have to take modes of a scale and move with the changes. you cant apply one pattern over a pattern thats in 3 different keys. i mean.. you _could_... but yeah


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## Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

Wolfster said:


> Im cryin inside



Don't be a dick. You asked a question that a simple Google search would have answered for you, so I think you're response is a little out of line here. 


I don't necessarily buy into this "caged system" talk. It's been explained to me over the years several times, but the upshot is basically it's making this big mystical sort of thing about the way chords (your link is the first time I've seen it with octaves, which seems even more pointless) overlap with scales, which is sort of a byproduct of the entire system of western harmony and chord construction rather than this big discovery unto itself. And, arguably, a good grasp of arpegiios and the relationship between an arpeggio and a scale is of more use in an improvisational context than memorizing 5 scale shapes across the neck.


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## Wolfster (Jul 23, 2007)

Man everyone's so touchy


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## Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

Ok, maybe I should have been a little more explicit - you asked a question that a simple Google search could have answered. A few members pointed this out. You made a wise-ass response. I posted suggesting you don't do that. You made another wise-ass response. 

We don't run a very strictly moderated forum in any sense of the word, but the one overarching principle is that all members are expected to treat other members with respect. You're showing a certain lack thereof. You can choose to either treat other members wiith a bit more courtesy, or you can leave or be shown out, plain and simple. 

Now, I hope you stick around, become part of the community, and see what this place has to offer, but that's really your choice, not mine.


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## Wolfster (Jul 23, 2007)

Alright man fair enough.

But if you read their repsonses to my perfectly reasonable question, you will find they misunderstood and thought I was incapable of working out the intervallic properties of both minor scales.

They also implied i was making stuff up about how much theory i knew.You cannot obtain muscle memory of the scales and their positions just from looking in a jazz book and noticing that the melodic minor scale ascending has a natural 6 and 7,As one of the guys seemed to think would help me.If you look back at my first response you will see it was perfectly civil and respectful.I was just asking for a visual representation of the scales man.Not a big deal is it?I thought as this is a guitar forum you might be able to help more than a site which has about a billion annoying adverts on it.

Notice if you search on google for 3-note per string melodic minor nothing comes up on it.

Surely this is a massive waste of both our time.


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## Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

Wolfster said:


> Surely this is a massive waste of both our time.



Pretty much.  Either way, thanks for a proper response and not a halfg-sentence wise-crack. 

Again, I've got my reservations about the so called "caged system," But I've been meaning to add modal forms of the three-note-per-string harmonic and melodic minor scales to the diatonic scales already included in the Workbench section. I'd probably have done it by now, but frankly I just don't use either scale that much. 

I might have a bit of time tonight to start working on a lesson on the modal forms of each scale (I think it's more useful to look at it that way, that each of the "caged" positions also represents one of five of the seven modes available from any diatonic (seven note) scale relative to the first root note, but while I could put the scale shapes together quickly enough (as could you, i suspect - 3nps scales are easy, you just play three notes, then go up a string and find the next note ) it's been a while since I've really worked with the modal variants of either parent scale, so giving examples of useage would be a bit trickier. 'Course, I could just cop out and say shit like "think of this as a minor scale with a raised 4th and a major 6th" so who knows.  

Anyway, I'm moving this to Theory and Technique, with a 24-hour redirect, since it probably belongs there.


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## Durero (Jul 23, 2007)

If nobody's willing to post tabs for you Wolfster, then maybe you should give it a shot yourself.

Try posting a 3 note-per-string harmonic minor pattern for example; there are plenty of knowledgeable players & teachers here who would be happy to confirm your patterns or help with any errors. And working it out yourself will probably lead to a deeper understanding of scale structures on the fretboard.


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## Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

honestly, I think scale patterns are a kind of dangerous thing to rely on. they're useful shortcuts but at the end of the day a scale is not a fixed sequence of positions on a fretboard but rather a series of pitches. To really "know" a scale, you should be able to just sort of grab a spot on the neck and start playing pitches with no regard to pattern as such. I do a lot of legato playing, so I tend to sort of spiral around the neck a lot, not really thinking about "positions." 

Knowing 5 different shapes for any scale is cool, but knowing the scale itself and being able to play scale runs anywhere on the neck without having to think in terms of, "ok, I'm in the 5th fret caged pattern" is at the end of the day more valuable.


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## Durero (Jul 23, 2007)

^ well said 

I spent years practicing the 7 three-note-per-string patterns all over the neck. I think they're a great foundation for many techniques, and certainly very efficient for getting across the strings in one position.

But melodic control started to become a higher priority and I've spent more years since then breaking out of them and working to solidify my awareness of what note of the scale I'm playing at any given moment - so I can be free to move in any direction regardless of which 3nps pattern happens to be at that position on the neck.


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## Wolfster (Jul 23, 2007)

Durero said:


> If nobody's willing to post tabs for you Wolfster, then maybe you should give it a shot yourself.
> 
> Try posting a 3 note-per-string harmonic minor pattern for example; there are plenty of knowledgeable players & teachers here who would be happy to confirm your patterns or help with any errors. And working it out yourself will probably lead to a deeper understanding of scale structures on the fretboard.



true. when I have the time I think I will.Maybe even post a lesson as I have not done that on a forum before.


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## Drew (Jul 23, 2007)

I guess it's how they overlap that made it click for me - I do a lot of three-note groupings when I play, but rather than staying in position I tend to slide up or slide down to move to another register, as well as just dropping down a different string.


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## Nomad (Jul 29, 2007)

Wolfster,

I wasn't trying to knock your knowledge, check the link I posted and just modify one or two notes as necessary. And CAGED doesn't cover non-diatonic scales / chords, which is what you asked for.

Also, there's a million ways to play a scale. One one string, two strings, ect, ect.


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## Flesh-EatingMonkey (Aug 13, 2007)

Hey Wolfster, I'm a little late, but do these help you? 

On these pdf's the melodic minor modes are written 1,2,b3,4,5,6,7 (w/ the 6th & 7th scale degrees raised), jazz style. Those notes are not lowered on the way back down in jazz. To play 'classical' melodic minor, just lower the 6th & 7th degrees on the way back down.


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