# Anyone here tune in fifths? (OR anything else really wierd/different)



## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 28, 2007)

I was pondering the idea of getting as much range as possible out of an instrument. I found that by tunning a six in perfect fifths you can get as much range as an eight in fourths.

Six in fifths (as it would appear in a tab)
F (one semitone above High E on a standard tuned six)
A#
D#
G#
C#
F# (low F# on an eight)

Seven in fifths
C (three semitones above High A on "High A" eights)
F (one semitone above High E on a standard tuned six)
A#
D#
G#
C#
F# (low F# on an eight)

I also found that by tunning a seven with fourths between the two lowest strings and in fifths everywhere above that you could get the range of both popular eight string tunning conventions.

A# (one semitone above High A on "High A" eights)
D#
G#
C#
F#
B
F# (low F# on an eight)

What do you think?
I originally started thinking of this because there is a six string guitar that I want, but I like the extra range of sevens and eights, so I decided to see how much more range I could get by tunning in fifths, and was amazed at how much extra range you could squeeze out of an instrument this way, it's truly amazing.


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## Metal Ken (Feb 28, 2007)

well, then you get the issue of being able to TUNE to above a high A. high A is hard enough to get to on its own.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Feb 28, 2007)

Yeah I know about that. I was thinking "in theory." I know high A's are a pain in the ass. I also thought this would make for some good disscussion.


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## OzzyC (Feb 28, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> well, then you get the issue of being able to TUNE to above a high A. high A is hard enough to get to on its own.





It would be cool to instead, take the tuning down a full step on it, (Esp. on a 7) and have the full range of a standard guitar and bass plus the high Bb you would then have.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 1, 2007)

It's been done, and in theory it's great, but there is the issue of relearning the neck, which would be a steep learning curve.
I've often thought the best solution would be to use five strings, like on those old Schecter celloblaster, as the smaller neck would make it more comfortable to finger scales in four-note-per-string patterns. I've contemplated trying it on my Les Paul, tuning C to E and either leaving off the top string, or doubling the high E for drones.
Another bonus is that it apparently makes the guitar more in tune, by bringing the overtones on each string more in-line with their neighbours.

It's a great idea, and one I'd like to investigate one day, but unfortunately there are all sorts of inbuilt difficulties at the moment...


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## ElRay (Mar 1, 2007)

All_¥our_Bass;405903 said:


> I was pondering the idea of getting as much range as possible out of an instrument. I found that by tunning a six in perfect fifths you can get as much range as an eight in fourths.


Check-out: http://www.tkinstruments.com/5ths_tuned_guitar_and_bass.htm

Before he started doing compound-scale, aka multi-scale, aka Fanned-Fret (TM) guitars, he tuned his 25-1/2 6-string like:


> So, starting from Low to high the string gauges and corresponding notes are:
> .074" - G - 1 step below a bass guitar's A string
> .054" - D - just 1 step below a Guitar's low E string
> .034" - A - same as a standard A string on a guitar
> ...



From the other threads where this has come up, it seems getting a Gary Goodman 0.008, starting with a high-A (A4, right?) and then working down by fifths would be the way to go.

Ray


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 1, 2007)

OzzyC said:


> It would be cool to instead, take the tuning down a full step on it, (Esp. on a 7) and have the full range of a standard guitar and bass plus the high *G* you would then have.


 
Tunning down a whole step would be a G not a B. But you have the right idea.


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## OzzyC (Mar 1, 2007)

All_¥our_Bass;405953 said:


> Tunning down a whole step would be a G not a B. But you have the right idea.



Yeah. Sorry about that, I would know that usually but a lack of good sleeping habits doesn't go hand-in-hand with logical thought.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 1, 2007)

I understand though, my brains acts like in minorly stoned when I pull an all nighter. And even worse when I do it two nights in a row. Once when I stayed up 48+ hours, I called a good friend of mine who's used to my wierdness, and the first thing he asked was "What the heck are you on!?".


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## OzzyC (Mar 1, 2007)

All_¥our_Bass;405966 said:


> I understand though, my brains acts like in minorly stoned when I pull an all nighter. And even worse when I do it two nights in a row. Once when I stayed up 48+ hours, I called a good friend of mine who's used to my wierdness, and the first thing he asked was "What the heck are you on!?".



The sad part about it is, I had planned on editing my last post to say that we were both wrong, since a full step below A# is Ab/G#, but I somehow managed to forget to hit send and closed the tab.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 1, 2007)

Oh well. All's well that end's well.



ElRay said:


> Check-out: http://www.tkinstruments.com/5ths_tuned_guitar_and_bass.htm
> 
> Before he started doing compound-scale, aka multi-scale, aka Fanned-Fret (TM) guitars, he tuned his 25-1/2 6-string like:
> 
> ...





That sounds pretty cool. I think I'll try using some slightly thicker guages and tune to a low F#(or F) instead of G.


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## OzzyC (Mar 1, 2007)

One thing I've been screwing around with for the psat 30 mins is to drop the 2 lowest strings on a 7 down by a (too confused due to lack of sufficiant sleep and music theory knoledge to figure it out right now... )

Anyway, the tuning is now at this:

E 
B
G
D
A
A
E 

It's easy to add in the root on many chords, and maybe some walking basslines, if you have some skill. (So I just stuck to adding the root note an octave lower )

I did this on a standard tuned guitar with a 9-59 set of strings on it, and it was actually semi-usable. (Although muddy as crap.)


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## Stan P (Mar 1, 2007)

It is a very interesting tunning ...

In general tuning to equal intervals makes alot of sence on a guitar

Relearning is obviously an issue but it is rewarding, even if you decide to go back to std tuning.

SOme tunings that I have tried:

ALl fourths, All 5ths. 

FIndings:

Larger intervals improve your soloing, but limmit interval / chord playing.

Try to play minor 3rd interval or come upo with a good voicing for sus chord.

THe best chordal tuning is in thirds (but you need many strings to gain the range!) SO it is a trade off.

I am trying to design a universal tuning that would improve apone the range and give all necessary chord voicings with a minimal number of strings, but I have not succeded yet. 

Anyone? 

One of the tunnings that I came up with on the way is 5-4 on 7string:
From 1st to 4th string tune in 5ths and then in 4ths. THis tuning is symetric, so the lerning should be very intuitive


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 1, 2007)

I've often thought BEBEBE or CFCFCF would be interesting alternatives to standard tuning...

Kaki King's CGDGAD and open C (CGCGCE) are also surpisingly versatile for virtually all styles of playing...

Aren't there quite a few double-bass players who tune in fifths for solo playing?


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## Stan P (Mar 1, 2007)

The cool thing about the CBx3 tuning is that you only have to learn 2 strings


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 2, 2007)

I think the lesson is to just use the best tuning for whatever you want to play; there's no law that says you always have to use the same tuning all the time.


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## Metal Ken (Mar 2, 2007)

Stan P said:


> One of the tunnings that I came up with on the way is 5-4 on 7string:
> From 1st to 4th string tune in 5ths and then in 4ths. THis tuning is symetric, so the lerning should be very intuitive



Well, the chapman stick has 5ths on the bass and 4ths on the treble. its really weird, if you've ever tried it. Are you talking about picking something like an A and branching out from there, like this(Just using some notes randomly as an example)
C#-F#-B-E-B-F#-C#

??


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## Naren (Mar 2, 2007)

My mandolin is tuned in fifths (to GDAE).


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## Stan P (Mar 2, 2007)

Metal Ken said:


> Well, the chapman stick has 5ths on the bass and 4ths on the treble. its really weird, if you've ever tried it. Are you talking about picking something like an A and branching out from there, like this(Just using some notes randomly as an example)
> C#-F#-B-E-B-F#-C#
> 
> ??




YEs, exactly. The idea was to create cello-bass hybrid tuning. Actually a reverse sounds like a cool idea too. I will think about it.

My goal is to comme up with a tuning that would work for chord-bass style wiythout too many strings (less than 7). Kinda pocket piano

With 5ths you have to stretch really far to play close intervals.



Naren said:


> My mandolin is tuned in fifths (to GDAE).


 SO is my violin that I will never learn to play


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## xwmucradiox (Mar 2, 2007)

These are some interesting tunings. I tune DADGBEG right now on my 7.


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## Drew (Mar 2, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> ...scales in four-note-per-string patterns...



This is actually what first made me consider tuning in 5ths. Chording would be trickier (but not impossible - a minor chord could be played by barring any three strings, and fretting up a fret on the thinnest, and a major with the same shape but up another fret up top, but it'd certainly be an unusual voicing, root-5-3rd8va), but the real problem (aside from the fact I don't have the reach to comfortably do 4nps stuff between mu middle and ring fingers just yet) is that the physical range of the guitar you'd need to do this on a seven is tremendous - high A would be tough, so you'd really have to tune down, and if you drop a 5th below a low F# (like AYB;s suggested tuning), well, that's a B an octave below standard in 7. That's LOW.


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## Metal Ken (Mar 2, 2007)

Stan P said:


> With 5ths you have to stretch really far to play close intervals.



I found out that the hard way with the stick. thats why i decided to try to take a break from learning it.


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 3, 2007)

Stan P said:


> My goal is to comme up with a tuning that would work for chord-bass style wiythout too many strings (less than 7). Kinda pocket piano


 
How about a six string bass tuned E(low E on a 4 stringer) B F# C# G# D# or A E B F# C# D#(same thing up a fourth) low B is not good for chording (muddy), and I suggest using strings a bit on the thin side (also gets rid of mud). I speak from experience (with chord-bass, *not* fifths tunning).



Stan P said:


> With 5ths you have to stretch really far to play close intervals.


 
The thing is, It would sound unique for chording, having the intervals in a different octave than is usual, rather than "fighting" the tunning to play them the "normal" way (which I know *is perferable* in some circumstances).



Stan P said:


> One of the tunnings that I came up with on the way is 5-4 on 7string:
> From 1st to 4th string tune in 5ths and then in 4ths. THis tuning is symetric, so the lerning should be very intuitive


 
So you'd keep the lowest three string in fourths, and have the higher ones in fifths-Like this?

A (high A)
D
G
C
G
D
A (one step[2 frets] below low B on standard tuned 7)

Drew also mentioned the bigger stretches for 4 nps playing. I'm used to playing basses like 95% of the time so when I pick up a guitar, the reaches are mostly a big nothing for me. But I could see how this could be problamatic on some of the longer scaled custom ERGs that some of you guys have.



Stan P said:


> The best chordal tuning is in thirds (but you need many strings to gain the range!) SO it is a trade off. I am trying to design a universal tuning that would improve apone the range and give all necessary chord voicings with a minimal number of strings, but I have not succeded yet. Anyone?


Best I could do was an eight with B being the lowest string, and the highest was a D#/Eb (one semitone below high E on a standard tuned axe). This idea would work better if there where companies who made axes with more than 24 frets (as a STANDARD model) to make up the lost range. Then you could take a seven, with 36 frets, and tune (low - high) B D# G B D# G B and have MORE RANGE than a seven in standard (or perfect fourths) with 24 frets!!


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## Durero (Mar 3, 2007)

About the learning-curve issue - ElRay mentioned a symmetrical major thirds tuning somewhere. That would only give you 3 strings to learn no matter which note you start the tuning pattern on. For example: C E G# C E G# or A C#F A C# F etc.

I think this would be particularly cool for close-voiced chords although it reduces your overall range slightly compared with 4ths.


A symmetrical tritone tuning would yield a 2-string pattern: C F# C F# C F# etc.
This would probably be great for visualizing scales and playing lead patterns, but chord voicings would probably be quite limited without using two-handed tapping.


Personally I'm imprinted on symmetrical 4ths tuning. Lets me switch easily between 6, 7, 9, and 10 string guitars.



Another issue that comes to my mind is picking technique for scales. 4 notes-per-string (5ths tuning) lends itself better to alternate picking than 3nps (4ths tuning) imo. But of course sweep-picking requires an odd number of notes-per-string so tuning in 4ths is better than 5ths for that.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 4, 2007)

Ron Jarzombek has apparently used the tritone idea before (BFBFBF).

I've used CGDGBE tuning (similar to The Dark Wolf's tuning) before, which is similar to the cello-tuning idea, although a logical extension of that would be CGDABE or CGDGCF.

On a seven, what about FCGDGCF?

Alternatively, what about have the highest strings in fifths, and the bass-end in fourths, for example ADGCGDA (the high A would probably be possible with Garry Goodman's strings)?
Actually, that would make an awesome tuning on an 8 string touch-style instrument: E(bass' low E)ADGCGDA!!!!

Interestingly, I'm just checking out an interview with stick-master Trey Gunn ( http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/gunn-but.htm ), and he uses a tuning on his melody side that's based on fiths with a minor third and then a tone on top...
On guitar, you could try FCGDACD...

 

Actually, I'm going to try that idea on my acoustic later tonight! I'll post back with thoughts...

UPDATE...

OK...I tried CGDACD, and whilst it was interesting, it wasn't a very intuitive tuning. I imagine if you had a guitar specially set up for it with the appropriate string gauges it could be great, but it didn't work so well on my acoustic (which had an 11-52 set on it). I might come back to this one later and investigate it properly.

Tried a different approach, and tuned DGCDAE; fourths on the bass side, and fifths on the melody side. This was much better, and although there'd clearly be a huge learning curve involved, I quickly began coming up with some interesting lines. I'm going to give it another try tonight.

Some observations about fifths tuning...


Four-note per string fingerings are the only practical way to finger scales, so you'd either have to get used to four-finger spreads (a la Holdsworth), finger slides (a la Greg Howe), or tapping the highest note on each string (a la Reb Beach). Shouldn't be too huge an adjustment (as those techniques are pretty standard guitar kung fu these days).
Pentatonics can be very easily played across all the strings in one position using three-note-per-string fingerings. Given that I _love_ non-blues pentatonic stuff, this is a major advantage as far as I'm concerned.
Arpeggios really need to be fingered using a two-note-per-string approach to be practical. This could prove to be technically challenging, but at the same time, it would be great for breaking out of the familiar shred patterns. Alternatively, tap through them all, like Tony MacAlpine does in standard tuning...
 If you wanted to play a chromatic scale across the whole neck, you'd need a six-note-per-string approach. Perhaps four left hand fingers and two from the right hand, or three fingers of each hand.
There are definitely a lot of possibilities with these sorts of tunings, and I'll be investigating them a lot more for sure. I'm beginning to suspect that developing some new two-handed techniques is going to be essential if these sort of tunings are going to be used to their fullest potential...
The nice thing though, is that it's really hard to play all the standard guitar cliches, which is a major advantage if you're into experimental playing...

Incidentally, here's a detailed article about different touch-style tunings...

http://www.clicmusic.be/tunings-tg.htm#1.1.5 A Quick guide: Which tuning should I play


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## ElRay (Mar 5, 2007)

Durero said:


> About the learning-curve issue - ElRay mentioned a symmetrical major thirds tuning somewhere. That would only give you 3 strings to learn no matter which note you start the tuning pattern on.


I found a number of Jazz guitarists that tune a "standard" seven string E-to-e in Major 3rds (same range as a standard 6-string). You get two full octaves from any position. Makes it easier to sight-read. The tuning is symmetric, so you can move the same triad/chord shapes up/down and across the neck. Chord substitutions are reduced (C7b9 is not substituted by a Db diminished seventh chord). The first and last strings are the same note, so you can barre more or less like you would with a 6-string -- makes it easy to get that pulsing comp by releasing the barre. (not that I can do this well--yet).

Three potential downsides: 1) There's a lot of Classical pieces with low-A&D drones, you'll lose those; 2) Some 'typical' folksy chord shapes are impossible; 3) Once you're used to this, you just can't pick-up any old guitar and play.

The intent when I get a "long scale" 7-string is to tune it B-to-b or A-to-a in Major 3rds.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 5, 2007)

ElRay said:


> I found a number of Jazz guitarists that tune a "standard" seven string E-to-e in Major 3rds (same range as a standard 6-string). You get two full octaves from any position. Makes it easier to sight-read. The tuning is symmetric, so you can move the same triad/chord shapes up/down and across the neck. The first and last strings are the same note, so you can barre more or less like you would with a 6-string -- makes it easy to get that pulsing comp by releasing the barre. (not that I can do this well--yet).
> 
> The intent when I get a "long scale" 7-string is to tune it B-to-b or A-to-a in Major 3rds.



Interesting idea...


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## ElRay (Mar 5, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Interestingly, I'm just checking out an interview with stick-master Trey Gunn ( http://www.elephant-talk.com/intervws/gunn-but.htm ), and he uses a tuning on his melody side that's based on fiths with a minor third and then a tone on top...


Sounds similar to Fripp's "new standard tuning" -- all 5ths between strings 6-2 and then a minor 3rd between 2&1. _{Elephant-Talk is a Fripp/King Crimson site, isn't it?}_

That might not be a bad way to go on a 7-string. First string is that infamous high-A, then down by a minor 3rd, then down by fifths.

Ray


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 5, 2007)

ElRay said:


> Sounds similar to Fripp's "new standard tuning" -- all 5ths between strings 6-2 and then a minor 3rd between 2&1. _{Elephant-Talk is a Fripp/King Crimson site, isn't it?}_
> 
> That might not be a bad way to go on a 7-string. First string is that infamous high-A, then down by a minor 3rd, then down by fifths.
> 
> Ray



Yeah, I suspect Gunn based this tuning of Fripp's 'New Standard'. Like I said, it's interesting, but not very intuitive, which IIRC is the point of the 'Guitar Craft'-type tunings; they're meant to force you to think about what you're playing, and not fall back on familiar cliches or fingering patterns.


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## ElRay (Mar 5, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> ElRay said:
> 
> 
> > The intent when I get a "long scale" 7-string is to tune it B-to-b or A-to-a in Major 3rds.
> ...


I'm also thinking about single-string capos, in-case I start missing the low-string drones. 

Ray


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 5, 2007)

Update 2...

Fingering standard triads is obviously a challenge in fifths-based tunings, but fuck, chords absolutely _sing _in these tunings! Trust me, give it a go and you'll hear the difference!

This is enough to really make me want to try an all-fifths tuning!


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## Durero (Mar 5, 2007)

ElRay said:


> I'm also thinking about single-string capos


Me too! They are going to be quite important to the design of my next prototype. I've been imagining implanting some magnets in the fretboard and using magnetic single-string capos.
I'd love to hear your thoughts & design ideas on this issue


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 5, 2007)

ElRay, a thought...

What about combinding the fifths idea, with the thirds idea? You could divide up the fretboard, and have one side tuned in fifths, and the other in major thirds, for instance CGD (fifths side) GBD# (thirds side). I'm experimenting with this one at the moment...post back with an update in a little bit.

Hey, I was thinking, we'd never come to a conclusion, but we should put our heads together and try and devise the *Official SS.ORG Alternative Standard *tuning!

UPDATE #1

First impression with thirds...

Obviously it's cool having a whole chromatic scale in one position, but when you play chords, they sound a little 'clunky' due to the overall 'out-ness' of thirds on the guitar. Fifths worked much better for this, even if the fingerings were a lot harder...


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 6, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Update 2...
> 
> Fingering standard triads is obviously a challenge in fifths-based tunings, but fuck, chords absolutely _sing _in these tunings! Trust me, give it a go and you'll hear the difference!
> 
> This is enough to really make me want to try an all-fifths tuning!


 
Triads and seventh chords are easy to play, *IF* and only if, you use the different inversions that are more easily available because of the fifths tunning.


Seventh chords for a guitar in fifths.
Tuning (low - to - high) F# C# G# D# A F
Sevenths are highlighted in dark red.






I highly agree that the chords sound absolutley wonderful. I tuned my Bass (low-to-high) to B F# C# G# for a bit, and experimented with chords way up on the neck... they sounded lovely.




distressed_romeo said:


> we should put our heads together and try and devise the *Official SS.ORG Alternative Standard *tuning!


 
Now *THAT* sounds like an awesome idea!!


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 6, 2007)

All_¥our_Bass;411847 said:


> Triads and seventh chords are easy to play, *IF* and only if, you use the different inversions that are more easily available because of the fifths tunning.
> 
> Seventh chords for a guitar in fifths.
> Tuning (low - to - high) F# C# G# D# A F
> ...



That's what I meant; those sorts of voicings are nice and easy to play in fifths-tuning, but a standard first-inversion triad is a bitch to finger (it's doable, but the stretch is so big, it's not going to be practical in most playing situations). Not necessarily a huge loss, as those open voicings sound amazing anyway!

I was wondering what a four-string bass in fifths would sound like, as I was reading an article earlier about double-bassists who tune in fifths...

http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/bassinfifthsarticle.htm


Hey, has anyone ever played a four-string tenor guitar (tuned CGDA)?


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 6, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> I was wondering what a four-string bass in fifths would sound like, as I was reading an article earlier about double-bassists who tune in fifths...
> 
> http://www.dennismasuzzo.com/bassinfifthsarticle.htm


 
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/showthread.php?t=23270
Note that this clip is not very good and the playing is very freeform. It is definantley *NOT* the way I usually sound, plus it like 4 in the morning when I recorded it, so I didn't expect it to be very good even at the time. I was mostly messing around instead of trying to play well. I simply detuned my four, in E A D G, to B F# C# G# so my 2 lowest strings were VERY floppy, and it is very obvious in the clip (to me atleast).


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## Stan P (Mar 6, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Update 2...
> 
> Fingering standard triads is obviously a challenge in fifths-based tunings, but fuck, chords absolutely _sing _in these tunings! Trust me, give it a go and you'll hear the difference!
> 
> This is enough to really make me want to try an all-fifths tuning!



I agree... It give you some kindo of cello-violin like overtones . If it makes sence.

SO many great ideas!!! Guys this is awesome! I will try the bass - guitar x-over tuning and let you know how it works ..


ANother question - DId anyone try a SUS chord on 5ths?

I find the the inverted voicing very weird


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## ElRay (Mar 6, 2007)

Durero said:


> Me too! They are going to be quite important to the design of my next prototype. I've been imagining implanting some magnets in the fretboard and using magnetic single-string capos.
> I'd love to hear your thoughts & design ideas on this issue


I don't really want to hijack the thread, so let's PM/start a new thread if this goes much further.

I've found someone who did the magnet in the fretboard, somebody else who had special frets that the capos snapped under, somebody who put a banjo 5th string sliding capo on a classical guitar, several folks that have drilled holes through the fretboard to hold clamps from underneath the neck and the "Third Hand" capo.

Until I saw that sliding banjo capo, the "least bad" route seemed to be to place a iron/nickle/cobalt (something a magnet will stick to) under the fret board at the spots I'd like to have the capos stick, and then put magnets in the capos. I didn't like the idea of permanent magnets in the fretboard. Also, this route uses the least number of magnets.

I'd like to get my hands on one of those banjo capos, and see if: 1) I can get more than one capo on the rail (one for each of the three lowest strings), and 2) there's a way to extend the reach so the set of three could capo any of the three lowest strings.

Ray



distressed_romeo said:


> What about combinding the fifths idea, with the thirds idea? You could divide up the fretboard, and have one side tuned in fifths, and the other in major thirds ...


My brain works better than my fingers. I started looking at symmetric tunings to keep things easy. That sounds like a good idea, but not conducive for me given my already limited "free" time.


> Obviously it's cool having a whole chromatic scale in one position, but when you play chords, they sound a little 'clunky' due to the overall 'out-ness' of thirds on the guitar.


My ear's not that good yet. Plus, I'm trying this on a 6-string acoustic with "regular" strings. With time, an "optimized" set of strings, and a better guitar, that equal temperament error may get to me.

Ray


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## Stan P (Mar 6, 2007)

So far my conclusions are:

It makes sence to have atleast one 3rd somewhere in mid or high register where you are going to play chords to be able to play 3rds and sus chords. It is not very practical to have greater interval than 4ths in that bass register - to be able to do std. walks (Bass players, do you agree?) 

How about a pattern like this (5 5ths separated by a maj 3rd?):
F#
B
G
C 
I see it may work nice in treble register... kinda like classical upside down


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 6, 2007)

Stan P said:


> So far my conclusions are:
> 
> It makes sence to have atleast one 3rd somewhere in mid or high register where you are going to play chords to be able to play 3rds and sus chords. It is not very practical to have greater interval than 4ths in that bass register - to be able to do std. walks (Bass players, do you agree?)
> 
> ...



That's a nice idea.

We've already mentioned a similar idea, using a fourths/fifths combination, similar to Open C tuning, such as BEBEBE, or CGCGCG.

Interesting point, but I've spent a lot of time playing in DADGAD on the acoustic guitar over the years, and it's easily one of my favourite altered tunings (in Celtic music it's almost and alternative standard tuning). I've found having the whole step between the 2nd and 3rd strings is great for chords, and actually resonates nicely, particularly if you like a lot of sus chords.
So, what about CGDAEF#? This would give you all the benefits of fifths tuning, but would allow you to fret close-voiced triads easily on the top three strings. The more I think about this one, the more it appeals...man, I wish I had a hardtailo guitar with me... 

Alternatively, if you're going to go with the fifths/thirds idea, how about BF#C#FCG or AEBEbBbF, as this would put the third in the centre, giving the fretboard a greater sense of symmmetry.

Another idea, based on the fourths/fifths concept, would be AEBAEB; only three strings to learn!

The more I think about it, the more the CGDAEF# tuning appeals...I may take the plunge and slap it on my acoustic tonight...


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## OzzyC (Mar 6, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> That's a nice idea.
> 
> We've already mentioned a similar idea, using a fourths/fifths combination, similar to Open C tuning, such as BEBEBE, or CGCGCG.
> 
> ...


You really get worked up during these tuning threads, don't you?


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 6, 2007)

OzzyC said:


> You really get worked up during these tuning threads, don't you?



 Yeah...I really ought to get out more!


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## ixlramp (Mar 6, 2007)

hello!

i play a 6 string 'bass' tuned in all fifths, although i want to get away from the 'bass' word.. i call it a long scale guitar, ERG or grand guitar. NOT 'extended range bass'. currently the lowest note is A0, the lowest on a standard piano:

G# .013 plain steel (guitar string with bass ball end threaded on)
C# .022 roundwound
F# .035
B .055
E .090 (same as standard bass E)
A .0145

i would love a 7 string bass to enable another string on top (D# .008)

the crafty 7 string tuning is actually CGDAE G A, mostly fifths, then a minor third, then a tone. basically the Fripp 6 string tuning CGDAEG plus an A on top. makes for interesting chord possibilities but i prefer an all fifths tuning

matthew


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 6, 2007)

ixlramp said:


> hello!
> 
> i play a 6 string 'bass' tuned in all fifths, although i want to get away from the 'bass' word.. i call it a long scale guitar, ERG or grand guitar. NOT 'extended range bass'. currently the lowest note is A0, the lowest on a standard piano:
> 
> ...



Yeah, that seven string tuning is similar to what Trey Gunn does. I mentioned earlier that I tried a similar arrangement on my acoustic...it clearly has potential, but it's not a very intuititive tuning.
Do you have any sound samples?

PS. If you haven't already introduced yourself in the 'member intros' section, you should...I suspect you'll be very at home here...


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## ixlramp (Mar 6, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> PS. If you haven't already introduced yourself in the 'member intros' section, you should...I suspect you'll be very at home here...



thanks, i'll get that done as soon as possible. it's good to be here


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## Mikey D (Mar 6, 2007)

All hail Joni Mitchell the queen of altered tunings...

EADadgbe for me! 

IF I had a seven it would be EADadgb.


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## Stan P (Mar 6, 2007)

ixlramp said:


> thanks, i'll get that done as soon as possible. it's good to be here




Wellcome !!!



OzzyC said:


> You really get worked up during these tuning threads, don't you?



I gott to think about this hybrid tuning .. may work



ixlramp said:


> hello!
> 
> i play a 6 string 'bass' tuned in all fifths, although i want to get away from the 'bass' word.. i call it a long scale guitar, ERG or grand guitar. NOT 'extended range bass'. currently the lowest note is A0, the lowest on a standard piano:
> 
> ...




Any recordings to check out?


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## OzzyC (Mar 6, 2007)

Stan P said:


> Wellcome !!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who's hybrid tuning, there's about three or four of them.


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## Stan P (Mar 6, 2007)

OzzyC said:


> Who's hybrid tuning, there's about three or four of them.



CGDAEF# Thank you for clarification. 
Although I am concirned with the ability to keep a chord in a position and play a walking bass line along with it, if bass is tuned in 5ths ... got to try it.

I am also very interested to listen to the recordings of bass with high treble strings. SOunds like a very cool hybrid!


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## ixlramp (Mar 7, 2007)

Stan P said:


> Any recordings to check out?



not yet, but i'm working on it


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## Durero (Mar 7, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> First impression with thirds...
> 
> Obviously it's cool having a whole chromatic scale in one position, but when you play chords, they sound a little 'clunky' due to the overall 'out-ness' of thirds on the guitar.


I'm not clear on what you mean hear DR, is it that you prefer the wider interval chord voicings (like with a 5ths tuning) over the closer chord voicings available in the 3rds tuning?


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 7, 2007)

Durero said:


> I'm not clear on what you mean hear DR, is it that you prefer the wider interval chord voicings (like with a 5ths tuning) over the closer chord voicings available in the 3rds tuning?



No, I'm talking about intonation. The way the overtones rub together makes chords seem a little 'out' to my ears


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 7, 2007)

Wow. I can't believe I created such an interesting topic.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 7, 2007)

All_¥our_Bass;414467 said:


> Wow. I can't believe I created such an interesting topic.



Yeah, this thread rocks!

This is the reason I love this forum; most other places, if I start obsessing about a topic like this (which happens a lot, believe me) I just get wierd looks...here I usually find at least one other person who's interested!


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## Stan P (Mar 7, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> Yeah, this thread rocks!
> 
> This is the reason I love this forum; most other places, if I start obsessing about a topic like this (which happens a lot, believe me) I just get wierd looks...here I usually find at least one other person who's interested!



I know. When I tall about these things with my musician friends they give me weirrd looks too


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 9, 2007)

So what's a good guage of string for a 25.5 non-trem guitar, so that I can have a nice tight F#?


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## OzzyC (Mar 9, 2007)

I'd say that you would need something near a 70


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 9, 2007)

Plus I like really tight strings (when I'm on a guitar, otherwise I fret out of tune like nobody's business) so I'll probably aim for a 75.


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## Stan P (Mar 9, 2007)

I am going to borrow my friend's 6 string bass and experiment with it. 
I am planning to use guitar strings and try:

TUNING 1:
EAEBF#A (Fourth, three fiths and a minor third)

TUNING 2: 
EBF#C#G#B (FOur thiths and a minor third)

TUNING 3: 
EA-GCFA (Kinda like 2 bass strings and 4 guitar strings)


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 9, 2007)

Post back with results...

Those tunings should be really interesting.


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## Stan P (Mar 10, 2007)

My friend has to finish his recording before he lends me the bass. I will have to wait for a while, but when I get it I will let you know. BTW, do guitar strings have enough lengh in them to be used on the bass? Any brands recommended specifically for this purpose?


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 10, 2007)

Not sure off the top of my head, but baritone strings might help (I'm not sure if they are long enough, but they are def. longer than regular guitar strings).


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## Durero (Mar 10, 2007)

I've got a guitar with a 36" - 32" fan and most guitar strings work fine. Once in a while I find a guitar string which doesn't quite fit the 36" scale, but just trying the same gage in a different brand usually solves the problem. If the bass you're using is a standard 34" scale you should have no worries.


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## Sponge (Mar 11, 2007)

Hey all, GCGCGCE is a tuning I've been using for a while now. I posted a starters lesson tab on another forum for guitarists who would be interested in using this tuning. Its a really good tuning to get a wall of sound (3 octaves covered with a finger) and as for technique benefits, there are some really good ones. While doing arpeggios there are a lot of finger rolls, so separation of sound from one string to another with one finger becomes a familiar maneuver. Also there are a lot of 4 note per string options and combinations to use.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Here's some stuff to get you started. Its in the Key of C (no sharps or flats) and will hopefully get you familiar with the open C tuning. If anyone has questions, feel free to PM me, and by all means enjoy!

1.Minor shape from C:
E
C
G
C-8------or--5
G-5-----------5
C-5-----------8

2.Major shape from C:
E
C
G
C-9------or--5
G-5-----------5
C-5-----------9


3.Minor shape from G:
E
C
G-8------or---5
C-7-----------7
G-5-----------8
C

4.Major shape from G:
E
C
G-9------or---5
C-7-----------7
G-5-----------9
C

Diminished:
E---------------------10-----7----
C---------------------8------8---
G---------10-7-------7-----10---
C-8--5---8---8---------------
G-7--7---7---10-------------
C-5--8------------------------

the 7 modes: (4 note per string) (KEY OF C, no sharps or flats)

Ionian
E----------------------------------------------7-8-10-12-
C-------------------------------------4-5-7-9------------
G----------------------------2-4-5-7----------------------
C-------------------2-4-5-7--------------------------------
G----------0-2-4-5-----------------------------------------
C-0-2-4-5---------------------------------------------------

Dorian
E------------------------------------------------8-10-12-13-
C--------------------------------------5-7-9-11--------------
G-----------------------------4-5-7-9-------------------------
C--------------------4-5-7-9----------------------------------
G-----------2-4-5-7-------------------------------------------
C--2-4-5-7----------------------------------------------------

Phrygian
E----------------------------------------------------10-12-13-15
C----------------------------------------7-9-11-12--------------
G------------------------------5-7-9-10--------------------------
C---------------------5-7-9-11-----------------------------------
G-----------4-5-7-9----------------------------------------------
C--4-5-7-9-------------------------------------------------------


Lydian
E--------------------------------------------------------12-13-15-17
C----------------------------------------------9-11-12--------------
G----------------------------------7-9-10-12------------------------
C----------------------7-9-11-12------------------------------------
G------------5-7-9-10------------------------------------------------
C--5-7-9-11----------------------------------------------------------

Mixolydian
E------------------------------------------------------------------13-15-17-19
C----------------------------------------------------11-12-14-16-------------
G--------------------------------------9-10-12-14-----------------------------
C-------------------------9-11-12-14------------------------------------------
G-------------7-9-10-12-------------------------------------------------------
C-7-9-11-12-------------------------------------------------------------------

Aeolian
E--------------------------------------------------------------------15-17-18-20
C------------------------------------------------------12-14-16-17------------
G----------------------------------------10-12-14-16----------------------------
C--------------------------11-12-14-16-----------------------------------------
G--------------9-10-12-14------------------------------------------------------
C-9-11-12-14------------------------------------------------------------------

Locrian
E---------------------------------------------------------------------17-18-20-22
C-------------------------------------------------------14-16-17-19-----------
G-----------------------------------------12-14-16-17---------------------------
C---------------------------12-14-16-17----------------------------------------
G---------------10-12-14-16-----------------------------------------------------
C--11-12-14-16-----------------------------------------------------------------

Sweeps: C Major intervals 4/4 time (16ths count 1e+a,2e+a...)

E------------------------12-15-12---------------------
C---------------------12----------12------------------
G------------------12----------------12---------------
C-----------12-16----------------------16-12---------
G--------12-----------------------------------12------
C-12-16------------------------------------------16--

E------------------------15-20-15---------------------
C---------------------16----------16------------------
G------------------17----------------17---------------
C-----------16-19----------------------19-16---------
G--------17-----------------------------------17------
C--16-19-----------------------------------------19--

E------------------------20-24-20---------------------
C---------------------19----------19------------------
G------------------21----------------17---------------
C-----------19-24----------------------24-19---------
G--------21-----------------------------------21------
C--19-24-----------------------------------------24--


Sweeps: C Minor intervals 4/4 time (16ths count 1e+a,2e+a...)

E------------------------11-15-11---------------------
C---------------------12----------12------------------
G------------------12----------------12---------------
C-----------12-15----------------------15-12---------
G--------12-----------------------------------12------
C-12-15------------------------------------------15--

E------------------------15-20-15---------------------
C---------------------15----------15------------------
G------------------17----------------17---------------
C-----------15-19----------------------19-15---------
G--------17-----------------------------------17------
C--15-19-----------------------------------------19--

E------------------------20-23-20---------------------
C---------------------19----------19------------------
G------------------20----------------20---------------
C-----------19-24----------------------24-19---------
G--------20-----------------------------------20------
C--19-24-----------------------------------------24-- 

Also try something like from the lowest G or C and use a 3 note major or minor arpeggio (example: C-12-16-19) then just string skip to the other strings of same open note and you have 3 octave arpeggios. Another thing to try with the minor 3rds is starting with the low G, middle G, high G and then on the E (use same frets, so like G-12-15-18...E-12-15-18 and you could go for taps on 21 and get some fine wankery going on. 

Anyways, its a great tuning, hope this is fun for any of you who try it!


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 11, 2007)

That's Devin Townsends sevenstring version of Open C, right?

I like that one, as of all the different families of open tunings this one is possibly the closest to standard tuning in terms of the way it's laid out. It's a great tuning, especially for two-handed playing. Actually, I while ago, I tried out a variation on it, where I lowered the whole thing a tone, and then dropped the highest string another whole step, so it was a Bbsus2 tuning. The only problem is that I don't really like to use too many arpeggios where there're tons of barres involved, so I'm not sure how well that aspect of it would work for me...


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## Sponge (Mar 11, 2007)

distressed_romeo said:


> That's Devin Townsends sevenstring version of Open C, right?
> 
> I like that one, as of all the different families of open tunings this one is possibly the closest to standard tuning in terms of the way it's laid out. It's a great tuning, especially for two-handed playing. Actually, I while ago, I tried out a variation on it, where I lowered the whole thing a tone, and then dropped the highest string another whole step, so it was a Bbsus2 tuning. The only problem is that I don't really like to use too many arpeggios where there're tons of barres involved, so I'm not sure how well that aspect of it would work for me...



Yep, thats the one! I teched for Dev, Byron, Jed during Alien and had already been messing around with CGCGCE, and after hearing some of the guitars off the floor at Armoury studios I was just blown away at how massive the tuning sounded with that low G.

I'm interest in the the tuning you mentioned, what kind of changes did it do for you with writing?


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## CGord (Mar 11, 2007)

I know nothing about theory, but how about a "drop" tuning all the way across the neck?

Low to high (6): B F# B F# B F#

I'm a very simplistic player, one & two finger power chords, no real soloing. I'm trying this out right now, & I'm having a lot of fun with it. I have no idea how it would work for guys who can actually *play guitar*, though. Scales, real chords, etc.

I bought some EB hybrid slinkys (09-11-16-26-36-46), removed the .026, & added a .058 6th. It makes for some pretty cool sounding two finger, three string power chords. I've got one clip completed in this tuning: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=570498&songID=4809806 (my tuner displays F# as Gb)

Anyway...a thought from a music retard.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 11, 2007)

CGord said:


> I know nothing about theory, but how about a "drop" tuning all the way across the neck?
> 
> Low to high (6): B F# B F# B F#
> 
> ...




We already suggested this. It's a great idea. Nick Drake used to use similar tunings on acoustic guitar.


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## CGord (Mar 11, 2007)

Ah, really? I read, but didn't see. Closest I saw was CGCGCE. Carry on, then!


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## ixlramp (Mar 12, 2007)

okay, i'd like to see someone tune a 7 string guitar in all fifths..

how about a Garry Goodman top A string and down in fifths:

A
D
G
C
F
Bb
Eb (semitone below low bass E)


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 13, 2007)

^ That would be sweet on an eight. You'd get an Ab below the low Eb.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 13, 2007)

Imagine the chords voicings...


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## All_¥our_Bass (Mar 13, 2007)

Massive piano chords FTW!!


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## CGord (Mar 14, 2007)

I dropped my tuning down further on my 6 today, now it's AEAEAE. I received my new 7 today, & tuned it to drop A. Then something dawned on me...

*A*EAEA*E
A*EADGB*E*


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## Stan P (Mar 14, 2007)

I am back to 5ths - Tod Keen Style (tk instruments). I am planning to split the pickups by pulling out the magnets and use it for bass & chord type of playing . 

Will also try to get bass and distorted rythm guitar kinda thing going.

I am back to it and it is very promising tuning!!!


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 15, 2007)

CGord said:


> I dropped my tuning down further on my 6 today, now it's AEAEAE. I received my new 7 today, & tuned it to drop A. Then something dawned on me...
> 
> *A*EAEA*E
> A*EADGB*E*



AEADGBE is a classic seven-string tuning. It's what most jazz and classical players tune the bottom string on their 7+ string guitars to. Nevermore and Aghora, (and End Theory!) have been known to use it as well.

It'll be interesting to hear your findings in terms of the comparison between AEAEAE and AEADGBE tuning...


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## CGord (Mar 15, 2007)

Well, I don't think I'll be a very good source for comparison; I've owned my first seven string for a day now.  I can tell you that I really enjoy the AEAEAE tuning, & that at this moment, I'm more comfortable with it than with the seven string, but again, I'm brand new to sevens. I like the AEAEAE enough that I am planning on switching all my six strings to it, & don't have any intention of going back to standard (or typical drop) tuning.


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## distressed_romeo (Mar 15, 2007)

Do you reckon you'd be tempted to try a similar thing on your seven?


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## CGord (Mar 17, 2007)

I doubt it. I'm not interested in going much higher than standard tuning, so I think I'd have to go waaaay down on a 7 (I haven't sat down & worked out the notes...low F maybe?). Right now I'm happy with it in drop A.


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## CGord (Mar 18, 2007)

Here's a test clip of the AEAEAE tuning:

Keep in mind, there is ZERO mixing on this (also no bass). It's four tracks, using two different amp patches.

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/songInfo.cfm?bandID=570498&songID=5126884


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## Sponge (Oct 29, 2007)

Hey can anyone give some thought on the following tuning ideas?

For 8 string I'm set on going to a low E. on the 7s I'm at GCGCGCE right now and enjoy this tuning more than open tuning for writing.

So these were tuning ideas toyed with, any feedback much appreciated!

EAEADGBE - dropped on 2 lower strings
EAEACEAE - closest to the opening tuning idea for GCGCGCE?
EBEADGBE - just drop on the F#

I really like the GCGCGCE but don't think a low C would be reasonable at all for CGCGCGCE. Maybe EGCGCGCE? THanks again, any ideas appreciated!


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## GiantBaba (Oct 29, 2007)

I use Fripp's New Standard Tuning pretty much exclusively. Trying it out was like a epiphany or revelation so I've stuck with it.


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## Jongpil Yun (Oct 31, 2007)

I tried the NST for a while and I despise the m3 on top.

I tried 5ths for a while and couldn't get used to the stretches.

I tried 4ths, and found that in general it made everything but a simple major scale more difficult to finger.

I actually think that standard tuning is all around the best.


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## Durero (Oct 31, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> I tried 4ths, and found that in general it made everything but a simple major scale more difficult to finger.


Did you try it for more that a few days?

Your conclusion here just doesn't make sense to me. How could you find a tuning scheme (4ths) which is so similar to standard, yet simpler & completely symmetrical, to be more difficult to finger?


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## Apophis (Oct 31, 2007)

Durero said:


> Did you try it for more that a few days?
> 
> Your conclusion here just doesn't make sense to me. How could you find a tuning scheme (4ths) which is so similar to standard, yet simpler & completely symmetrical, to be more difficult to finger?


 
  

Maybe he's using some extended chords, bacause it's realy hard to (lack of) play full six string major and minor chords. But it's easy to play five and four string chords. 
Maybe he didn't noticed that all scales and chords can be play verbatim and they are easy to transpose onto the upper or lower two strings.


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## Kotex (Oct 31, 2007)

How would I tune my 7 to 4ths?


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## Apophis (Oct 31, 2007)

If your tuning is EBGDAEB in fourths it will be FCGDAEB. Tuning in forths you can do using two ways:
1. tune up 2 highest strings half step
or
2. tune down half step without 2 highest strings


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## FortePenance (Nov 1, 2007)

Yeah, tuning in 4ths is basically just using the 5th fret/open without changing to 4th fret/open on the G>B string.

I think I'm going to try modal tuning on my 6er. Not really weird and different but cool anyway. With the new EMGs i'm getting from Eric, I'm gonna downtune it to maybe A or A# dorian(?) AEADEA. If I like that, I might go modal tuning for everything. DADGAD for the band (play in drop D anyway) and AEAEDEA when I get a 7. But most likely it'll end up:

RG: AEADEA (or A standard)
SZ: DADGBE
Acoustic: F standard (up 1 hstep)

Yeah, not really weird, most tunings but whatever eh. D:


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## loneguitarist (Nov 2, 2007)

My fretless guitar is tuned to Augmented 4ths.

High to low:
E (normal high E of guitar)
A#
E
A#
E (normal low E of guitar)
A# (below B of 7 string)

It's lush for fretless as it makes chording easier with less barring necessary which is great for a fretless guitar


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## Apophis (Nov 2, 2007)

Nice tuning  Post some vid playing your fretless with that tuning


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## Durero (Nov 2, 2007)

loneguitarist said:


> My fretless guitar is tuned to Augmented 4ths.
> 
> High to low:
> E (normal high E of guitar)
> ...


Very cool - a symmetrical tritone tuning  
only two strings to learn.

I've been wanting to try this for years but have never taken the time. I'd also love to hear clips or see vids of you playing in this tuning


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## Wolfv11 (Nov 2, 2007)

Ive been experimenting with tuning in 5ths for quite some time now. 
Ive tried tuning low to high GDAEBF#
the only recording ive ever done with this was the rythm track to a song of mine called "amber" MySpace.com - Project Pulse (Eric Jackson) - Queens, New York - Experimental / Progressive / Rock - www.myspace.com/projectpulse
The lowest i go down to in the song is an A towards the end. The rest of the song is very drop D "ish".
The problem has always been the learning curve, and with college kicking my ass, i really dont have the time to learn the instrument all over again. I do plan on taking one of my instruments and fully converting it to 5ths, it really allows for some radical new ideas. If I have the time in the near future I will do some more stuff with it. I think it might work very well on my fretless guitars.


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 3, 2007)

Durero said:


> Did you try it for more that a few days?
> 
> Your conclusion here just doesn't make sense to me. How could you find a tuning scheme (4ths) which is so similar to standard, yet simpler & completely symmetrical, to be more difficult to finger?



Well, maybe I should try it again, but pentatonics, melodic minor, some other scales seemed harder to finger to me because you have to shift towards the lower frets when ascending, which I hate. Same thing with a lot of arpeggios.


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## Durero (Nov 3, 2007)

Jongpil Yun said:


> Well, maybe I should try it again, but pentatonics, melodic minor, some other scales seemed harder to finger to me because you have to shift towards the lower frets when ascending, which I hate. Same thing with a lot of arpeggios.


I agree that shifting lower can be more awkward than shifting higher. But it's really only one pentatonic pattern that avoids shifting lower in standard tuning (that one that everyone learns first where you can lead straight across all the strings with your first finger) - all the other 4 pentatonic patterns have a lower shift in them - and so do the other scales & arpeggios you mentioned (standard tuning is almost completely 4ths after all  )


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## jab_dan (Nov 5, 2007)

I started to tune my guitar in 3 and 4 semitones so it gives (me from highest tone) #F #D H #G E #C A #F D H G E (bass). Any experiences? I am just relearning it


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## Jongpil Yun (Nov 5, 2007)

Durero said:


> I agree that shifting lower can be more awkward than shifting higher. But it's really only one pentatonic pattern that avoids shifting lower in standard tuning (that one that everyone learns first where you can lead straight across all the strings with your first finger) - all the other 4 pentatonic patterns have a lower shift in them - and so do the other scales & arpeggios you mentioned (standard tuning is almost completely 4ths after all  )



Well, also compare the standard major/minor arpeggio shapes. In all 4ths they just seem nasty to me. Also, no more easy string skipped inverted major arps.


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