# Combining Good Bass and Guitar Tone



## jlagoon (May 11, 2006)

Hello forum,

I'm in a hard rock band in which I play a 7 string guitar and the bassist plays a 6 string bass. We sound good together with the vocal and the drummer, but there seems to be a tone or perhaps frequency war between the guitar and the bass. I am, by no means, a guitarist who just turns his amp very loud, but it feels that the bass frequencies walk all over my guitar frequencies and make them sound like in the background.

The bass tone sounds like the bassist's tone from Tool, and my guitar tone sounds like John Petrucci's from Dream Theater. The bassist plays through a multifx pedal, 350 watt and a 4x10 Hartke. He has his tone knob on the bass pretty full. The bass tone, to me, sounds very heavy on lo-mid, mid, and treble. I play through a pretty good rack gear with an EQ that boosts a liiitle bit of my low-mid (around 120-160), a LOT of mid, and upper mid. I use a 4x12 cabinet.

The only way that I have found to encounter this problem is to turn my volume louder, but this would be a problem with the vocal. Would elevating and pointing the bass cab to ear level help? It's on the ground right now. I'm very anal about tone, regardless of the instrument, but the bassist isn't (he just likes his current bass tone that sounds like Tool).

I don't have a lot of knowledge of bass equipments, maybe some of you could give me some insights on this tone/frequency issue.


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## Drew (May 11, 2006)

Yeah. You ever seen one of those videos of Petrucci demoing his live rig, pulling up some of the patches he uses in gigs? It sounds surprisingly aenemic on its' own.

I'm guessing your "Petrucci tone" that sounds so massive while you're jammin out alone has WAY more bass and gain than John's actual recorded and live tone, and the bass guitar on the albums is giving it the illusion of being deeper and fuller than it is. 

Also worth noting is that JP's tone is sculpted to work with Myung and, these days, Rudess, and Myung's bass tone is very different from the Tool bass sound. This is probably responsible for some of your clashing as well, the fact that what JP is using with one bassist's rig might not compliment another's very well. 

So, try this - what's your rig? Guitar - pedals - amp (w/. settings) FX stuff - cab? Post up, and we can suggest some tweaks. 

(Also worth mentioning - listen to something like Forty-Six and 2, and pay attention to the bass. I'm pretty sure that it's EQ'd a little differently in the mix when the heavy guitars properly come in, which helps a bit too)


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## jlagoon (May 11, 2006)

Thanks for the reply, Drew. I have that Petrucci video. His tone is pretty strong and dynamic enough on its own. Nevertheless, I bet that even Petrucci himself would have a problem playing with TOOL-like bass tone live. The guitar tone that I aim for is the one on Another Dimension from LTE (forgot 1 or 2) album.

My main setup (excluding some fx to make it compact):
RG7321 --> compressor --> TriAxis --> parametric EQ --> -- Delay --> VHT2502 --> Behringer 4x12

On the TriAxis I have the gain 6.5, treble 10, mid 8, bass 5, presence 7.5, dynamic voice 7; Lead2 RED. I have a problem on distortion section of the songs.

I boost 80Hz for 3db, around 120Hz for 15db, 800Hz for 10db, around 2.5Hz for 8db. 10% presence on the power amp, 3/4 depth.

If I boost any more mid or treble frequency, my sound would become harsh.

Please don't blame it on the cabinet


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## Jason (May 11, 2006)

i would cut below the 80hz or if your bassist plays behind your palying maybe as high as 100hz and perhaps back down that boost on the 120hz


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## jlagoon (May 11, 2006)

I'm afraid that I wouldn't get that guitar "thump" if I back down on the 120. I'll give it a try anyway, not all the way, right?

Other suggestions? Should the bass cab be tilted or elevated? I tilted mine so it points to my ears.

Although Adam Jones uses 3 different amps for recording, his tone is pretty thin in comparison to Petrucci's live tone.


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## Drew (May 11, 2006)

Eh, shannon swears by the Behringer cabs - never tried one myself.  

Never played a triaxis, but in my experience every Mesa is capable of putting out an ABSURD amount of bass (I'm a Nomad user myself). So, try rolling your bass down to about 3 on the amp, easing up on the deep quite a bit as well. Then, on your EQ, CUT at 80db, quite a bit, and roll back 120 a bit too. You might want to ease up at 800 a little as well, but then again I'm not much on low mids.

I think that's your problem - with the deep control on your VHT engaged, your amp's bass on 5, and then a parametric EQ boosting your low end by a few more DB, you're going to be putting out a TREMENDOUS amount of low end. This clashes with the bass frequencies, and when you try to shove a guitar into bass frequency range, the guitar usually loses. 

You might, depending on just how bright your bassist's tone is, also look into getting him to roll back his high end a little bit too. 


These settings will probably sound like shit alone - I think we're thinking about different JP videos, I'll do some google and youtube searching tonight - but should cut MUCH better live. You should probably dedicate an entire practice to finding complimentary tones, in fact - it's worth the investment in time.



jlagoon said:


> I'm afraid that I wouldn't get that guitar "thump" if I back down on the 120. I'll give it a try anyway, not all the way, right?
> 
> Other suggestions? Should the bass cab be tilted or elevated? I tilted mine so it points to my ears.
> 
> Although Adam Jones uses 3 different amps for recording, his tone is pretty thin in comparison to Petrucci's live tone.



Since you two snuck these in while I was posting...  

You don't WANT that guitar "thump." The guitar thump is why your bassist is drowning you out. Get rid of that, let the bassist provide the thump, and you'll sound much tighter.

And JP's tone is really a lot thinner than you think it is - the reason it sounds so heavy is because he hits just te frequencies he needs to. Did you catch the G3 tour he was on? His lead sound was significantly "narrower" than Satch's or Vai's - you can really tell that he's used to playing in a much more cluttered mix than they are, whereas their lead guitars are the focus of their music.


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## jlagoon (May 11, 2006)

MmmMMmMmmMm......

That's true about Mesa amps,  

I'll cut the 80 and 120 then. Would it be fine if I boost 300ish Hz? Keep the depth settings on the power amp?

I do notice JP's tone on G3, he's almost drowned out, but is still audible. Narrow is the right word, I guess.


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## Drew (May 11, 2006)

Would it work? Depends. Try it at your next rehersal and let me know.  

As for the depth control... Again, give it a shot, but I have a feeling that especially if you're working with a very full frequency bass tone, you don't want that deep rumbly low end. Your bassist should be providing most of te depth in this situation - if he was doing syncopated funky slap shit or something and you guys were playing very different lines, then maybe tightening up the low-mids and lows on the bass would help a little, but if you're quoting Tool and Dream Theater as sonic influences, I'm guessing that's not the case. 

Seriously, spend a rehersal just tweaking your tones. From the sound of it, yours has WAY too much low end, but at the same time less highs and mids, if done carefully, could preserve the basic aspects of his tone while letting them blend together better.


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## jlagoon (May 11, 2006)

I'll do that and report back. Thanks a lot!!!


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## jlagoon (May 15, 2006)

Guys, it worked! I cut my bass on the 80hz and 120hz, and the bassist cut this treble a bit. Now we sound tighter and stronger. The only complaint that we have is from the bassist, he said that the bass notes don't have the character anymore, it sounds like unintelligible bottom end that only makes the band sound stronger. He does still have the TOOL tone though, similar to the one in Parabola.

Thanks!!!


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## Drew (May 15, 2006)

I had a feeling it might.  

Well, do some experimenting, then - roll up the treble slightly on the bass, and maybe try cutting his lower mids a little bit, at about the frequency the guitar begins to come in strong? Just a hunch, that might let him keep a fairly clear tone and improve the perceived treble clarity while tightening you guys up even further.


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## Jason (May 15, 2006)

Awesome man


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