# 2nd Build : Headless Ergo-Superstrat



## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 26, 2017)

I wasn't going to make a thread for my second build but it is shaping up weird enough I thought it might be fun to share.

I decided I wanted to try building a headless guitar, but since this was only my second build, I didn't want to spend a ton of money on a Skerv bridge or anything like that. So I put together a design that puts standard guitar tuning machines below the bridge in place of a tailpiece. I didn't want the tuners to be obvious or ugly like on a travel guitar, so I hid them in a cavity routed into the back of the guitar. All that sticks up are the posts.







Before anyone says anything, the answer is "yes", it IS going to be a pain to turn the knobs, especially when stringing it. But hopefully it will work okay other than that.

I also did an ergo-style cutaway to make it sit better while sitting down. I ended up making it more agressive than I originally planned due to some massive tearout I had while flush trimming the body to my template, but it feels very good in the lap.






Of course now that I'm trying to find where to put my controls, I'm running out of room. Live and learn, I guess.

Here's the tuner cavity. Had a few problems routing the inner lines straight, but otherwise it turned out well.






Anyway, weird build. I'm going to paint it seafoam green and the hardware is all black. The neck will be flame maple with black dots. The body is oak.


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## odibrom (Jan 26, 2017)

EDIT: pics are work now!...


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 26, 2017)

Thanks for the heads-up. Should be fixed now.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 27, 2017)

interesting.


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## Lemonbaby (Jan 27, 2017)

There's more than enough room for controls, you can place the switch on the upper horn and just have a volume knob below the bridge. I even used a single push/push volume in one of my builds for a clean look.

I'm wondering about the ergonomics regarding the tuner access from the back in that narrow cutout...


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## odibrom (Jan 27, 2017)

Banjo tuners could do the trick...
















Not sure if they will hold the string pull though.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 27, 2017)

The ergonomics on the tuners are not great. I did a test fit with one, though, and it seems they'll at least be turntable. So I'm thinking restringing will be TERRIBLE (though not as bad as a floyd ) but everyday tuning should be doable, if a little uncomfortable. 

A better solution is probably to put the tuners along the edge like a 10 string bc rich bich. I played with that design too, but couldn't get it to work with a strat style shape, so I dropped it.

I bet it would work great on a warrior body though. Hmmmm


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## odibrom (Jan 27, 2017)

No love for the banjo tuners?


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## KnightroExpress (Jan 27, 2017)

+ 1 on the banjo tuners! That's probably the simplest solution, and a good set will definitely hold tension, no worries.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 27, 2017)

Interesting. Those would definitely work. I think this body is too thin for them though. Wouldn't want then sticking proud out of the back. 

Are they still geared like a guitar tuner? Just axially somehow?

The more I look at these, the more I like them. Grover Banjo tuners don't cost too much. I may have to look into those for my next build.


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## DistinguishedPapyrus (Jan 27, 2017)

I was gonna suggest using Steinberger gearless tuners, but what in the world happened to them, used to be avaliable on StewMac now I can't find them on ANY website...


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 27, 2017)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> I was gonna suggest using Steinberger gearless tuners, but what in the world happened to them, used to be avaliable on StewMac now I can't find them on ANY website...



Looks like they got bought out / went out of business. There's a set on ebay for close to 300, but I could get EGS stuff for that.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 27, 2017)

The push-push knob is a good idea. The switch on the upper horn is also a good idea. I'm planning on using a strat jack plate, which will make things harder to fit, but I should be able to make it work.

I might put the switch on the treble side but closer to the neck. I'll have to put the neck on and see what feels right.


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## MikeNeal (Jan 27, 2017)

what about hipshot tuners with the sk1 buttons

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Genuine-Hipshot-SK1-Satin-Chrome-Tuner-Button-/301940298275


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 27, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> what about hipshot tuners with the sk1 buttons
> 
> http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Genuine-Hipshot-SK1-Satin-Chrome-Tuner-Button-/301940298275



THAT would work great.


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## odibrom (Jan 28, 2017)

DistinguishedPapyrus said:


> I was gonna suggest using Steinberger gearless tuners, but what in the world happened to them, used to be avaliable on StewMac now I can't find them on ANY website...



Those would also be an interesting option, but that problem...

Though the hipshots are nice with that button, it will also be somehow difficult to use due to lack of space to get a good grip on them: side cavity walls, guitar's top underside and closeness of the tuners. I would bet on banjo tuners for an interesting turnover of that problem.

Lake a look at Schaller's: https://www.schaller-electronic.com/hp12738/Banjo.htm?ITServ=CY7048d657X159e62738f6XY6823






and the drop tuning (and back, similar to Hipshot's X-Tenders) version of this last one: https://www.schaller-electronic.com/hp204903/Machine-Heads-Banjo-B4-D-Tuner.htm?ITServ=CY7048d657X159e62738f6XY6823


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## MoonJelly (Jan 28, 2017)

As long as we're bandying recommendations... planetary gear tuners (these made by Kluson) will have better tuning stability than the friction/bearing type traditionally used on a banjo.






EDIT: The Kluson type are what was originally used on the Gibson Firebird, you can get a full set on ebay at the link here:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Kluson-Planetary-Firebird-6-Inline-Reverse-with-Metal-Keystone-button-Chrome-/292010260546?hash=item43fd2af842:g:BgYAAOSw4DJYiTN-


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## IGC (Jan 28, 2017)

Pretty cool! Sorry if you allready mentioned, any pickup ideas yet? I wonder how the oak sounds...


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 28, 2017)

Tons of cool ideas here! 

I'm trying out the gfs power rails. They look like fun. In fact all the hardware for the most part is from gfs.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 28, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> Tons of cool ideas here!
> 
> I'm trying out the gfs power rails. They look like fun. In fact all the hardware for the most part is from gfs.



Man I loved that pickup. It has so much balls. Not the best clarity but it nails anything from a gojira tone to a black sabbath tone. It's a pretty good pickup for the price (I actually had a d-activator and an evo2 in the bridge before I settled on the power rails). I have a pile of demos I did with it if you're interested.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 29, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> Man I loved that pickup. It has so much balls. Not the best clarity but it nails anything from a gojira tone to a black sabbath tone. It's a pretty good pickup for the price (I actually had a d-activator and an evo2 in the bridge before I settled on the power rails). I have a pile of demos I did with it if you're interested.



Oh awesome. That's good to hear. Yeah hook me up with those demos if it isn't too much trouble.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 31, 2017)

So I decided how to place my controls:







So I needed to make a routing template for the control cavity. Previously I've used pieces of scrap wood to form my edges, but that can get kind of tiring. If only there were a way I could quickly and accurately lay out a template that would be correct for both the rout and the cavity cover. 

And then it hit me. Legos! 






So I made the inner and outer rout shape with Legos and made a template put of hardboard using my new pin router jig. 






To do the outside rout, I just moved the bricks out by one stud. 





Et voila! A template! 






Then to do the cover, I just moved the bricks inward by two studs and ran the router around the outside, creating the inverse shape. This didn't work as well. I kept getting breaks and thing. Gonna have to figure out a better way. But the cover is usable for now. 

Put the template to use:






Not too bad






I still have some kinks to work out, but the Legos (off brand, actually, because I couldn't find a set of just bricks by lego) work pretty well for making templates. My pin router is a little flexible, which causes problems. I think I'm gonna build a 1/2 inch one.


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## Mr_Mar10 (Jan 31, 2017)

Genius!!!? 

Staying tuned to this thread looking cool so far


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## KnightBrolaire (Jan 31, 2017)

here's the power rails clips:https://soundcloud.com/skwisgaar-sandervaal/sets/gfs-power-rails-demo
also totally stealing the lego template idea.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Jan 31, 2017)

Thanks. And yeah I'd recommend stealing it. They work well.


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## ixlramp (Feb 1, 2017)

Yes i was about to suggest standard tuners with cylindrical knobs. Because you've created space for normal knobs there will be space to get a grip on them, if not just replace the knobs as they tend to be interchangeable. Normal knobs are more likely to be be knocked out of tune, a cylinder is highly unlikely to be knocked out of tune.

Funny how those in the USA say Legos, the plural is 'Lego'.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 2, 2017)

ixlramp said:


> Yes i was about to suggest standard tuners with cylindrical knobs. Because you've created space for normal knobs there will be space to get a grip on them, if not just replace the knobs as they tend to be interchangeable. Normal knobs are more likely to be be knocked out of tune, a cylinder is highly unlikely to be knocked out of tune.
> 
> Funny how those in the USA say Legos, the plural is 'Lego'.



your opinions are irrelevant. you spell aluminum as aluminium and color as colour


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 3, 2017)

I'll have to see about buying cylinder knobs if the normal ones don't work out. I don't fancy spending money on nice hardware for my second build since it probably won't see a ton of playtime anyway.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 6, 2017)

Got the neck blank cut to length and the truss rod channel routed this weekend. It is a great fit. I just used my router table fence rather than messing with a template and it went well. 






Hoping to mostly finish the neck up this week.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 8, 2017)

A little more progress today. I routed the jack plate hole using the 1/2 pin router jig I built last weekend. By far the easiest rout I've ever done. Just cut a template on my bandsaw, taped it on, did about four passes with the pin router and that was it! Accidentally cut through a stray screw shaft though. That was not great for my brand new bit, but it seems okay. 

Routing:





The result :


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## odibrom (Feb 8, 2017)

looking good, keep us posted please


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 11, 2017)

Couldn't resist starting the finishing process on the body. I'm using water based paint and minwax polycrylic, so starting earlier is better. The curing time on this stuff is enormous. 

Here's the body after grain/wood filler and prep sanding. You can see the marks from my hand plane in the grain filler. I had it out of alignment when I planed it after joining. 






And here it is after the first (brush on) coat. Looks horrible so far  but that won't last too long. 






God I love seafoam green. It's going to be hard not to paint all my guitars this color in the future. This will have all black hardware and a maple fretboard with binary dot inlays (more on this later). Should be quite sexy.


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## IGC (Feb 11, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> Tons of cool ideas here!
> 
> I'm trying out the gfs power rails. They look like fun. In fact all the hardware for the most part is from gfs.



GFS power rails, now your speaking my language, It looks like you have the same double action truss rod that I have ordered for two guitars that I plan on making after I finish the tree fretboard guitar i'v been working on. They have good reviews, definitely interested to see how they work.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 11, 2017)

IGC said:


> GFS power rails, now your speaking my language, It looks like you have the same double action truss rod that I have ordered for two guitars that I plan on making after I finish the tree fretboard guitar i'v been working on. They have good reviews, definitely interested to see how they work.



If it is the one that is something like 13 dollars on Amazon, then yes, it is the same one. I used it on my first build and it works just fine. I like how low profile it is, and it fits a 1/4" channel perfectly. Also it costs like nothing.


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## IGC (Feb 11, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> If it is the one that is something like 13 dollars on Amazon, then yes, it is the same one. I used it on my first build and it works just fine. I like how low profile it is, and it fits a 1/4" channel perfectly. Also it costs like nothing.


Yes those are the ones, I ordered the easy on the wallet, amazon locking tuners and have them on my tree guitar, I like them so far.


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## IGC (Feb 11, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> A little more progress today. I routed the jack plate hole using the 1/2 pin router jig I built last weekend. By far the easiest rout I've ever done. Just cut a template on my bandsaw, taped it on, did about four passes with the pin router and that was it! Accidentally cut through a stray screw shaft though. That was not great for my brand new bit, but it seems okay.
> 
> Routing:
> 
> ...



This router table guide is brilliant


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 12, 2017)

IGC said:


> This router table guide is brilliant



Thanks. I saw one in a pro guitar shop video and had to figure out how to make one. Ended up not being too difficult to do. Mine needs just a little more calibration to be perfect, but it is still pretty great to work with.


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## Floppystrings (Feb 12, 2017)

http://www.sporthitech.com/genuine-hipshot-sk1-buttonsatin-chrome-also-fits-grover/


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 12, 2017)

KnightBrolaire said:


> your opinions are irrelevant. you spell aluminum as aluminium and color as colour



Also, shout-out to a fellow Minnesotan.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 15, 2017)

Finally got moving on my neck again. I slotted the fretboard, made a template, and pin-routed the neck shape out with my 1/2" jig. I love this thing. I love it so much I made a video demoing the neck template routing and my fancy DIY pin router:



After that, I popped in my binary fret markers:






This is a nod to my other life: by day I'm a software engineer. It also fits in with the "high tech guitar machine" aesthetic I'm going for with this build.

...I just realized now that I put the most significant bit on the left side, when I originally intended to do the right side. Whoops. I guess this guitar is big-endian. 

And finally, here's the money shot: I can finally do a proper mock-up. Pretty happy with how it is turning out.






I'm getting frustrated with brush painting. It worked great on my scraps but the actual body is proving to be a lot more difficult. I might give in and spray it, but I'll have to build a spray booth first. Darn, I have to make more tools.


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## KnightBrolaire (Feb 16, 2017)

looking good


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## odibrom (Feb 16, 2017)

Looking good...

So, what tuners will you use?


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 16, 2017)

odibrom said:


> Looking good...
> 
> So, what tuners will you use?



I'm just using the cheap gfs ones I already bought. If it really is terrible to adjust and the guitar is good otherwise, I'll swap the knobs out for cylinders. 

Actually I could probably make cylinder knobs out of wood. Hmmmm...


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## jarnozz (Feb 16, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> This is a nod to my other life: by day I'm a software engineer. It also fits in with the "high tech guitar machine" aesthetic I'm going for with this build.
> 
> ...I just realized now that I put the most significant bit on the left side, when I originally intended to do the right side. Whoops. I guess this guitar is big-endian.



I laughed way to hard to that  my old teacher pronounced it as little and big indian. all P's were b's as well. bointers, brocessor, and a pic32 was called a bikkie32 

what language do you write in? just out of curiosity


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 16, 2017)

jarnozz said:


> I laughed way to hard to that  my old teacher pronounced it as little and big indian. all P's were b's as well. bointers, brocessor, and a pic32 was called a bikkie32
> 
> what language do you write in? just out of curiosity



All sorts of languages really. I guess mostly Java these days, as well as assorted scripting languages and whatever. Used to be a mostly c++ and c guy. 

Also I think I got my endianness backward... I always forget which is which.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 19, 2017)

Well I built a spray booth. Brush finishing was getting annoying. 







Here's the back:






That hookup will run to an Inline fan and out my shop window.


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## jarnozz (Feb 21, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> All sorts of languages really. I guess mostly Java these days, as well as assorted scripting languages and whatever. Used to be a mostly c++ and c guy.
> 
> Also I think I got my endianness backward... I always forget which is which.



Cool! I work with C and VHDL for FPGA most of the time. as for endianness: little endian stores the lowest significant byte in the lowest memory address and big endian stores the highest significant byte in the lowest memory address. you should have placed all frets so that the least significant bit is on the right side of the fretboard to be correct, but that makes it harder to see them

use HEX for your next build! 
0x00, 0x03, 0x05, 0x07, 0x09, 0x0C, 0x0F, 0x11, 0x13, 0x15 and 0x18 just to mess with peoples heads


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## LiveOVErdrive (Feb 23, 2017)

I got the neck shaped and drilled. The profile is about as thin as a Wizard (maybe a bit thinner) with a subtle V-shape to it. Feels good.






Decided to try threaded inserts this time. So far they seem super nice. I did a test fit and the alignment is *perfect*.






Here's a the head. The 0 fret will be stainless, and the rest nickel/silver/normal. Unless I go full stainless again. We'll see. I have both. I still have to slot the nut/retainer. I'll need a new battery for my caliper to do that.











Everything is coming together and the test fits have been really good. I think this thing might actually play WELL.


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## neun Arme (Feb 24, 2017)

I like where this is going.


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## pondman (Feb 24, 2017)

Loving this thread


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## Deegatron (Feb 24, 2017)

I really like the binary inlays. that's a really cool / unique idea.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 5, 2017)

I did my frets. The zero fret is stainless. The others are nickel silver. This came out a lot nicer than my last one, since I didn't bother with trying the hotdogs fret thing. 






Did side dots too. I used wood filler mixed with black paint and dye to fill the holes. This was a pain to clean up and I'm not gonna do it again. Ordered plastic rod to do it next time. This should look okay when it is done though. 






Finished spraying the color on the body as well, so I'm going to shoot the clear coats later this week hopefully. Satin for the neck. Gloss for the body. Unless I decide at the last minute to do matte.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 6, 2017)

I decided to use tung oil in the neck last night. Looks lovely. Unfortunately I used the pure stuff so it may never cure properly. I think I'll give it a few days and then wipe some satin poly over the top. Should have just stuck to water based finishes like I originally intended.


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## getowned7474 (Mar 6, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I decided to use tung oil in the neck last night. Looks lovely. Unfortunately I used the pure stuff so it may never cure properly. I think I'll give it a few days and then wipe some satin poly over the top. Should have just stuck to water based finishes like I originally intended.



Neck looks great! Pure tung oil will take about 1-2 weeks to dry (at least to the touch). I didn't do my research before I used it on my Warmoth guitar body and it took over a week to dry. I think I did 2 or 3 coats, the first being super thick.


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## KR250 (Mar 6, 2017)

Nice beer shot  Guitar is looking great too. Dig the binary concept for fret dots.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 26, 2017)

Getting close to the finish line here. Finishing up the fret work and wiring and then it's time to let 'er rip. The neck feels AMAZING. Used a satin poly and I love it. Definitely using that from now on.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 27, 2017)

Aaaaaand it is done. 






It plays well. Like really well. As in I put it down after jamming for a bit to pick up my American strat (heretofore my favorite playing guitar) and my immediate reaction was "ehhhhh". The neck is nice. The balance of a headless guitar is fantastic. There's just no hint of neck dive. It just sits there right where it should. I love the TOM too. I used to think I didn't but I guess I do. And I weighed it and it only weighs 7 pounds. Not bad. 

I'm super excited. Even though I screwed some cosmetic stuff up fight at the end (largely because I got impatient and rushed it), im very pleased with how well-functioning it came out. Very excited for the next build. 



Oh. Also. The tuners mounted in the back sucks. It works, but it is a pain. I'm really dreading setting the pickup heights because it means I have to loosen the strings. But still - a fun experiment. Next guitar won't be headless, but I'll try another sometime.


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## Mr_Mar10 (Mar 27, 2017)

Sick!!!1

Love the green & black. The binary dots are sweet. May borrow that idea lol ta!
Shame about the tuners probs. I reckon some decent banjo tuners or something like suggested before would sort u out 

I almost bought seafoam green spray for my next tele project  keep up the good work!


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## odibrom (Mar 27, 2017)

You're still in time to change the tuners for some banjo ones... nevertheless, great job on that guitar. What are those pickups by the way?


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 27, 2017)

I was gonna skip the Banjo tuners because I assumed this guitar would play like crap and not be worth the expense, but it is now my favorite in my arsenal so I may have to reconsider. 

The pickups are GFS "power rails". Can't comment on their sound yet as I haven't really set the height properly yet. So far they seem pretty dark though.


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## IGC (Mar 29, 2017)

Congrats! It looks fantastic, really diggin the binary dots. I would be so pumped if I were you


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## KR250 (Mar 30, 2017)

Looks great! Did you apply the satin poly after the fret work? I'm going to do the same on my next neck and trying to dial in the process before I start. Any tips?


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## LiveOVErdrive (Mar 30, 2017)

KR250 said:


> Looks great! Did you apply the satin poly after the fret work? I'm going to do the same on my next neck and trying to dial in the process before I start. Any tips?



I hammered the frets in and filed the edges to be flush with the board, then wiped on the poly. Then I leveled and dressed them after finishing. This worked pretty well, though I have found that sanding the finish flat between the frets is a pain. 

I will stress the importance of wiping the finish on with a cotton cloth rather than a paper towel. With the cloth, I was able to rub in some nice, thin, flat coats. I found the paper towel left a thicker and less even surface, which looked and felt worse.

I used minwax satin poly which I diluted about 50:50 with mineral spirits as a wipe on poly. I'm sure the off the shelf wipe on poly is great too. But I liked this result a whole lot.


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## J_Mac (Apr 13, 2017)

WOAH!

So original and what great egonomicit...ergonomicali....ergogenou... It's a comfy looking thing! The binary dots idea is brilliant, very inspiring.

Did I miss the pic of the rear? How do the tuners sit in the cavity? Can't be that much of a pain to tune, I've owned a strandberg and they're a pain!


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## LiveOVErdrive (Apr 13, 2017)

J_Mac said:


> WOAH!
> 
> So original and what great egonomicit...ergonomicali....ergogenou... It's a comfy looking thing! The binary dots idea is brilliant, very inspiring.
> 
> Did I miss the pic of the rear? How do the tuners sit in the cavity? Can't be that much of a pain to tune, I've owned a strandberg and they're a pain!



I don't think I have a pic of the back. I'll take one and post it when I get home. 

I learned a lot from this build and will definitely be doing another similar headless (probably with 7 strings). It will look more like this:


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## MikeNeal (Apr 13, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> I don't think I have a pic of the back. I'll take one and post it when I get home.
> 
> I learned a lot from this build and will definitely be doing another similar headless (probably with 7 strings). It will look more like this:



i like the look of that. reminds me of those bc rich bich guitars.


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## LiveOVErdrive (Apr 13, 2017)

MikeNeal said:


> i like the look of that. reminds me of those bc rich bich guitars.



Thanks. And that's sort of where I got the idea. 

Just snapped a photo of the back. The brown spots and scuffing are where I learned to drill pickup wire holes before finishing the guitar next time. 






Honestly tuning isn't that bad. The next iteration should be great though. I've always like having tuners on the bridge end (like on a floyd) so you can fret while you adjust.


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## MikeNeal (Apr 13, 2017)

LiveOVErdrive said:


> Just snapped a photo of the back. The brown spots and scuffing are where I learned to drill pickup wire holes before finishing the guitar next time.



hahaha, been there man. my walnut/padauk build had some thing kind of similar.
i was installing the pickups, and i guess i didnt measure the length of the screws properly. so when i was done screwing in the pickup i couldnt lift the guitar off the bench. went right through the guitar. ugh


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