# Getting Fucked over on Live sound



## GinoBambino54 (Aug 17, 2010)

Fuckin sucks.

and what is worse is when your band is a tight band who practices all the time, but when you hit that stage they

A: Dont give you a sound check
B: There monitors are fucking awful and you cant hear the drums
C: Your can hear the drums but nothing else or there is no detail in your playing
D: They dont even have enough equipment to mic the whole band.

My band Novallo 

NOVALLO [NEW SONG UP] on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Downloads

recently played thrash and burn tour, we were guaranteed main stage because we sold all of our tickets but those bastards threw us on second stage with the most fuckin retarded sound douche-bag ever, we couldn't even have our keyboardist play because there was not enough direct boxes to run him threw the mix.

Guy used one mic on the kick drum and that was it,
while were sitting across from main stage who has the most incredible live sound i have ever heard.

The band had to use our set time to properly get our own levels, we played maybe 3 songs for a crowd of 400-500 people maybe more, we couldn't hear a damn thing we were doing, even though we stayed together as a band, i have no idea how many mistakes were made or how bad we sounded to those people.

I'm tired of being concerned with live sound at shows, and i don't know what to do, any suggestions?


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2010)

Always bring a case FULL of mics, mic cables, DI boxes, etc. It sucks to lug around a whole other case but it's VERY worth it. I've heard the same story from artists of all levels, playing all kinds of venues, over the past two or three decades. 

Live sound has always been a hit or miss thing when dealing with larger tours, as the secondary stages usually get significantly less attention as far as gear, equipment, and personnel. 

You can help though, know exactly what you want coming through each monitor (for instance "center monitor full kick" or "stage left monitor 50/50 kick, vocals"). Also, as I said bring a little extra gear. It sucks to have to, and in a perfect world the sound team should be able to cover you, but as you can see, it's an imperfect world. Also, another pain in the ass, bring a roadie along that knows your sound. Have him do your sound, or at least let him level you off first before the "sound guy" has his turn. 

Stuff like this is the reason I'm not 100% sold on going full to the house.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 17, 2010)

I feel your pain man, we just played a festival where this was the case, it's so frustrating when you know how tight you can play when you can all actually HEAR each other.

As for using our own gear, they were insistant that we use their cabs, cables etc to speed up time, they wouldn't even let me use my high quality speaker cable.

Bands with keyboard players seem to confuse the fuck out of most sound guys


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## xtrustisyoursx (Aug 17, 2010)

another thing to do to prevent this is to not get too spoiled with rehearsals. What I mean is that the band should be able to play tightly with the worst variables. I've gotten to where as long as I can key in on the high hat, or just the kick, or just something on the drumset, I can play decently.


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 17, 2010)

xtrustisyoursx said:


> another thing to do to prevent this is to not get too spoiled with rehearsals. What I mean is that the band should be able to play tightly with the worst variables. I've gotten to where as long as I can key in on the high hat, or just the kick, or just something on the drumset, I can play decently.



Easier said than done  With the music we play, it's essential that we can hear each other as our music is very difficult to play.

And being able to play our set 'decently' just doesn't cut it, as a semi-professional band we need to be as close to perfect as possible.

I'm considering getting in-ear monitors, but I know they're expensive as hell...


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## Lon (Aug 17, 2010)

Scar Symmetry said:


> Easier said than done  With the music we play, it's essential that we can hear each other as our music is very difficult to play.
> 
> And being able to play our set 'decently' just doesn't cut it, as a semi-professional band we need to be as close to perfect as possible.
> 
> I'm considering getting in-ear monitors, but I know they're expensive as hell...


even with in ears, the problem is who's gonna give you the mix for it, to make it happen properly you'd need a own set of mics and a mixer just for all band members to do the monitor sound (like every decent festival has a seperate monitor mixer usually on the side of the stage), but i feel your pain.

last concert i had my monitor die on me 3 times in the concert (of course in the middle of the most difficult song with the most difficult solo i majorly fucked into the sand barebacking...) and its just not to believe with what sound people get away today...


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## Scar Symmetry (Aug 17, 2010)

I know, which is why I'm still only considering it otherwise I would've bought them by now


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## DaveCarter (Aug 17, 2010)

From what I remember, your keyboard player uses a Fanthom 7, and Im pretty sure they have a built in sequencer. You could do what Splintered Soul used to do and feed a click track out to your drummer, which could also go to everyone's IEM if you wanted. For the last few gigs the band actually mic'd up the guitars, vocals and bass DI and submixed it through the laptop's soundcard so that we always had a good IEM mix, but it adds a lot of setup time, how we were 5 minutes early at BOA is a fucking miracle 

For cheap IEM, check out the Emu Pipelines, theyre £83 each. Each unit can be switched to be a receiver or a transmitter, and they have 3 channels, so theyre great for IEM for the whole band on a budget.

As stated above, always bring all the gear that you need, just to make sure you have it. If you know youre going to need a DI box, or 2, or 4, then you bring that many to make sure they have them. Small mixers can also be useful incase there arent enough free channels on the desk, you can submix keyboards or BVs etc and feed the desk a stereo pair, or even a mono mix if its a last resort. Same goes for mics, cables, extension leads, mic stands, if you know you need it to perform then buy it yourself and bring it to every show. I carry a shit-tonne of extra gear that I never normally need, but id rather carry it around just in case than be stuck without it. Its one bag full of spare cables, mics, straps, tape, fuses, batteries, DIs, toolkits etc, I just throw it in the car/van every gig and I know I can sort out nearly anything that needs sorting without relying on anyone else.


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## Moro (Aug 17, 2010)

This is definitely the most annoying thing about playing music. Playing live, at least to me, is one of the most enjoyable things I can do, there's nothing like it. Yet, sound issues can really turn something that I love into a nightmare.

For starters, sound guys usually have very little "people skills" if you know what I mean. They don't take request as their job, but as a hassle. It's an entire chapter in how to deal with one of these bitter idiots. I'm not saying every sound guy is like that, but of the many dudes I've had to deal with, I'd say that most of them are just not willing to help at all.

You might want to get your own stage-sound setup. Let the sound guy handle only the FOH. That's one of the plans that we as a band are having right now. It consists on getting a Jamhub and some poweramps, and making a "monitoring" rack, since all of our instruments have line outputs (sans the drums, but that's fixable). Then some in-ear monitors and we're good to go. Granted, that is expensive and may take a couple extra minutes to set-up. But we really don't give a fuck anymore. We are tired of being UNABLE to play because of someone else's lack of peril or will to help. And you only have to pay for the equipment once, because if it's good, it'll last.


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## Inazone (Aug 17, 2010)

"Drowning Pool played last night. You guys play metal? Cool, I'll just leave the board set the way it was."

"Can you turn down?" (Amp volume is set *below* 1, and as a tube amp, sounds like poop at that level already.)

"Is that as loud as your amp gets?" (100-watt tube amp, volume at 9, miked through PA.)

"That distortion doesn't sound good. I'll add more on the board."


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 17, 2010)

Inazone said:


> "Can you turn down?" (Amp volume is set *below* 1, and as a tube amp, sounds like poop at that level already.)




That is a common problem. Not all boards and PAs can handle loud stage volumes. There's a reason that a lot of artists who play venues with PAs use smaller amps, and use them quite well. I don't think the sound man is at fault in _all_ cases such as this. Too much stage volume can lead to bleed through on the mics as well as a shit sound at certain locations in the audience.


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## xJeremiahx (Aug 17, 2010)

9 outa 10 times the soundguy doesn't know the band. It always helps to talk to him/them before you go on. Tell him what sound you're looking for and what mix you want in the monitors. I've dealt with shitty/careless soundguys before...and no matter how much they piss you off...kiss their ass because they can always make it worse.


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## Inazone (Aug 19, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> That is a common problem. Not all boards and PAs can handle loud stage volumes. There's a reason that a lot of artists who play venues with PAs use smaller amps, and use them quite well. I don't think the sound man is at fault in _all_ cases such as this. Too much stage volume can lead to bleed through on the mics as well as a shit sound at certain locations in the audience.



Had it been a tiny venue and a ridiculous rig, it wouldn't have bothered me at all. But it was a 50W tube combo, in an 800+ capacity club with an enormous sound system. Just one of those things that made me scratch my head. Oddly enough, a different sound guy at the same venue (playing a different show with the same rig) came up and complimented me on how good it sounded, dialed in at reasonable volume.


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## MaxOfMetal (Aug 19, 2010)

Inazone said:


> Had it been a tiny venue and a ridiculous rig, it wouldn't have bothered me at all. But it was a 50W tube combo, in an 800+ capacity club with an enormous sound system. Just one of those things that made me scratch my head. Oddly enough, a different sound guy at the same venue (playing a different show with the same rig) came up and complimented me on how good it sounded, dialed in at reasonable volume.



I noticed some "sound guys" are SUPER protective of their set-ups, or the set-ups they're hired to maintain. It's like that annoying over protective mother who has their kid wear a hockey helmet, and not out after dark when they're 20.


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## Wookieslayer (Aug 20, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I noticed some "sound guys" are SUPER protective of their set-ups, or the set-ups they're hired to maintain. It's like that annoying over protective mother who has their kid wear a hockey helmet, and not out after dark when they're 20.



 oh gawd


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## loktide (Aug 20, 2010)

yep, that definitely sounds like a live gig. i know from personal experience. the stage sound and PA (very) often sucks, but the most important thing is to never let that know to the audience. they don't care if you have bad monitor sound or can't hear drums. or yourself. but you'll make a bad impression if you bitch about it on stage.

an experienced, solid band doesn't need 'good' stage sound or monitors to put off a great show. heck, most people in the audience aren't able to distinguish a bass from a guitar. let alone a good from a bad live mix. as long as it's loud and you can hear lot's of bassdrum and vocals most people will be happy... kinda sad, isn't it? 

edit: also, putting into perspective that you'll very likely face the same sound guy or support bands again if you play often, it's a bad idea to put too much emphasis in complaining about shit at gigs. bands that are not 'high maintenance' and don't bug the organizer with technicalities/stage problems also make a better impression on concert host's. this might be of advantage for future gigs 

put short: bands are hired to perform, not to worry about fixing the stage sound/mix. every case i've witnessed of bands trying to 'fix' this haven't improved the sound, but mostly pissed off the later bands for cutting their set or delaying everything.


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## Demeyes (Aug 20, 2010)

I think it's a good idea to carry a few bits and pieces in case the venue's is broken or they don't have them. Things like few cables, mics, maybe a stand or two and if you have a keyboard player then you should bring a DI box. They're things everywhere should have but often won't and it's not too much hassle to have them in the car or stashed in a bag.
Generally I find that if you are pretty friendly with the sound guy and not overly demanding, then they will do a good job for you and give you what you want. If you come in and are really bossy and telling them how you want everything from the start, then they'll leave you sound terrible.


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## Andii (Aug 20, 2010)

The best way to keep things tight no matter what is to control as much as you can with clinical precision. I've seen very few live shows with good sound. A lot of metal concerts can be attended without hearing anything that is going on. 

Here are some things that can help or solve the issues that plague live sound:

Bring your own mics for anything that needs it. That beat up mystery mic that will go on your cab sounds like a broken telephone. Have the mics mounted on the drums when you bring them up. The sound guy can't argue with something that is already finished.

Same with your cab mic. Get a mic holder that attaches to the cab. Aim that sucker an inch from the grill cloth pointed half on the dust cap and half on the cone pointed straight on. Now your audience won't be hearing you through a telephone like 80% of live miced guitar tones.

Trigger the kick drum. This is essential. It's almost impossible to get a good kick sound to the speakers unless you're in a big band and have your own sound guy. Even then triggers can't be beat. Triggers make the kicks sound absolutely perfect. Also the feed into everyone's monitors can be cranked up and will be extremely clear. The DM5 is great for kicks and it's cheap. 

Go DI. Use an axefx or pod with FR monitoring. Your audience will hear studio quality tone and you will hear your appropriate tone at any volume. FR isn't expensive, just get a powered PA speaker. 

Bring your own direct boxes for everything. 

Go Di with the bass. Make sure the tone is balanced. When a bad sound guy(not engineer ) gets a bass signal that is nothing but sub frequencies he will think it sounds cool, turn it all the way up because it tickles his sack, drowning out the rest of the band. Also shitty bass tone that is nothing but noise has to be done away with. 

Those things can keep you from getting fucked quite as hard. Those things put only the mix in the FOH guy's hands and nothing else(unless he decides to do some whacked out EQ or something stupid like that, like the things mentioned earlier ).


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## scottro202 (Aug 20, 2010)

So, somewhat-related question.

My band is auditioning for this Battle of the Bands coming up soon. In the event we do play the show (at this point seems VERY likely), they want us to use a house drum set. They also may want us to use house amps (They said "audio gear", which could mean anything I guess.) Anyways, my drummer just won a $6000 Mapex drum kit (Same one the drummer from Coheed uses), and he reallllllly wants to use it in the show, understandably. They say they want to use it because of set up and tear down time, which is totally understandable.

Is there anything we (or my drummer, should I say) can do, to make a quick set-up time, and let us use his kit? 

Also, while I'm asking live-sound questions, we'll me micing our amps (minus bass), is there anything we can do to not get fucked over on the live sound with out setup?


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## Inazone (Aug 20, 2010)

scottro202 said:


> So, somewhat-related question.
> 
> Is there anything we (or my drummer, should I say) can do, to make a quick set-up time, and let us use his kit?



Might be able to use his snare, since that's a quick swap. Maybe cymbals too. Anything else would likely be out of the question, due to the time required.

If you have a distortion pedal or multi-effects pedal that you like, bring it along, just in case the provided amp is garbage. This has saved me a couple of times.


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## scottro202 (Aug 20, 2010)

Inazone said:


> Might be able to use his snare, since that's a quick swap. Maybe cymbals too. Anything else would likely be out of the question, due to the time required.
> 
> If you have a distortion pedal or multi-effects pedal that you like, bring it along, just in case the provided amp is garbage. This has saved me a couple of times.



Yeah, his snare and cymbals are the bomb-diggity, we did that for a show we played a few months ago, where they had a house set. 

And I run a single channel amp with a few distortions, so I'll be fine. Not sure about my other guitarist, though. He runs straight into his amp, no pedals whatsoever. But I think they'll let us use our amps, I'll have to clarify closer to the show


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## Cancer (Aug 20, 2010)

This is the numbero uno reason why I invested in the Bose PS1 towers. Consistency. For our live sound we submix everything and send them to the Bose, which we use as our backline. Depending on where we play, and the sound guy, we either send them a 2 track mix from the Bose (using the DI's on the towers themselves) or send the house separate outs from the DI's in our rack.

I decided long ago that, unless we were paying a sound guy, we have zero control over what comes out of someone else's speakers, so I stopped worrying about it, and instead focused on making our stage sound the best and most consistent it could be. Admittedly its still a work in process, and sometimes we screw it up, but it way easier to fix a problem WE caused as opposed to trying to negotiate with whatever (insertwordhere) the club is underpaying to do sound that night ....especially when you only have a 30 minute set.

My mantra, Sound on Stage, our responsibility, sound from house speakers, yours. Much easier to assign blame when shit goes south.

To be fair, we run modellers and e-drums too, so that helps with the above scenario.


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## GinoBambino54 (Aug 27, 2010)

Whoa, didn't know this got so many posts, thanks everybody for the support and feedback. hopefully now we can be in better control of our stage sound


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## Lozek (Aug 27, 2010)

As a few people have said, always approach a show with the expectation that you will be able to hear approximately nothing and anything else is a bonus. I've spoken to artists with established careers of 25+ years, millions of records sold, and montitor mix is still an issue. Last one I spoke to was telling me that mainstage at Donnington this year (approx 70-80,000 customers) was almost unplayable.

We just played a good sized festival & took our own guy who is a seasoned pro, and watching him tear a strip off the local crew about the sub-standard set-up was great, because we didn't have to get involved or worry about it. That was the job he was being paid for and he is professional enough to know it. He nearly exploded in rage when the PA guy told him that he should just do without the rack of gates & comps they had because 'I've been mixing metal bands for years, you don't need them' 

I would also say, if you're going to be playing a show that is a very good showcase for your band in front of what you feel will be a large appreciative audience, it is ESSENTIAL that you take your own soundguy, the best one that you can find & afford rather than just a mate who knows a bit. It will probably mean that you make a financial loass, but what you gain in fans, good press coverage & useable footage will probably pay back over time.


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