# Song Writing



## jjgreene97 (Jan 13, 2012)

So i need some help on writing songs.
i want my music to be riffy and shreddy, but also having a jazz aspect.
i want the songs to be like Whitechapel, and Suicide Silence but also some Animals As Leaders
Thanks Guys


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 13, 2012)

jjgreene97 said:


> but also having a jazz aspect



Define jazz.


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## jjgreene97 (Jan 13, 2012)

like an actual musical aspect, not just random meaningless riffing.


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## Ryan Duke (Jan 13, 2012)

jjgreene97 said:


> like an actual musical aspect, not just random meaningless riffing.



I don't know your background, but write with the guide lines of good jazz theory. Lots of people write "riffs" and don't know what's going on exactly as far as theory goes. There's nothing wrong with that, but since you don't want to have random meaningless riffing, then there needs to be structure and that structure is music theory. Tosin(AAL) obviously doesn't just make things up without thought. He knows what he is doing and analyzing his songs shows it. If one were to just fake jazz it would be obvious at least to jazz people. 
I personally start out with the foundation of the idea for the song; what key is it in, what keys do I plan on switching to, when do I want dynamic changes, will I use tempo, time signatures, keys, etc. to make the dynamic changes. And most importantly is "what am I trying to convey?" Am I trying to impress people or make music that will inspire people? The answer should be second, for me at least.


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## celticelk (Jan 13, 2012)

jjgreene97 said:


> like an actual musical aspect, not just random meaningless riffing.



That's a start, but not much of one. What is it about jazz that appeals to you? The rhythm? The chords? The melodies? Can you name some specific jazz tunes or performances that have whatever-it-is that you're trying to get into these metal tunes?

It's easy to say, "It'd be wicked to have a song that sounded like X but with some Y in it as well" - I've done plenty of that myself. If you can't *hear* what the outcome of that combination should sound like, you're not going to get very far in trying to realize it.


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## jjgreene97 (Jan 13, 2012)

Thanks guys,and yeah i know what i want it to sound like, it goes through my head. I want it to be not completely jazz but a tune i like is Wave Of Babies by AAL, and also On Impluse also by AAL. I want it to be in the key of C, i want a odd time signature not just traditional 4/4. For the most part of jazz its just the sound of it, the peacefulness, but also the rhythm of it.


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## Enselmis (Jan 13, 2012)

jjgreene97 said:


> Thanks guys,and yeah i know what i want it to sound like, it goes through my head. I want it to be not completely jazz but a tune i like is Wave Of Babies by AAL, and also On Impluse also by AAL. I want it to be in the key of C, i want a odd time signature not just traditional 4/4. For the most part of jazz its just the sound of it, the peacefulness, but also the rhythm of it.



Let's get this straight before we go any further. Animals as Leaders is not, has never been and most likely will never be jazz. As far as jazz rhythm goes, typically that would be a swing. Did you just pick the key of C becauseit's the lowest open note that you have available? Not that that's a bad thing, I'm just curious. Maybe set up a metronome for some sort of interesting time signature and jam on that for a while, although the seems a little forced. The best thing you can do for your writing is not to compose in front of a piano or holding a guitar. Come up with an idea in your head before hand and then use an instrument to figure it out once the idea is there.


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## brutalwizard (Jan 13, 2012)

just sit around and write really terrible songs, and get your noodle working.

you don't just write amazing tunes cause you want to

well some people can, but i cant haha


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## niffnoff (Jan 13, 2012)

brutalwizard said:


> just sit around and write really terrible songs, and get your noodle working.
> 
> you don't just write amazing tunes cause you want to
> 
> well some people can, but i cant haha



Writing songs for the purpose of wanting them to be amazing? 
Call me crazy but uh, doesn't that set you back?
And for writing terrible songs that sounds worse advice.

I believe this guy has it right on the noodle with




RyanDuke said:


> What key is it in, what keys do I plan on switching to, when do I want dynamic changes, will I use tempo, time signatures, keys, etc. to make the dynamic changes. And most importantly is "what am I trying to convey?" Am I trying to impress people or make music that will inspire people? The answer should be second, for me at least.




Preparation > Mindless ideas that'll "forced jigsaw piece" in

I noticed also the idea of using time signatures you are not a accustomed to is the "in" thing. You have to learn before you use, if you can play a basic idea in 7/8 5/8 whatever, expand upon that, add flavour, but be creative rather than force some overly decorated riff. Simplicity is key for your main spot I believe for foundations.


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## Solodini (Jan 14, 2012)

For the jazzy, structured element, learn to use chord tones in your melodies and use this to help make sure that your music has some form of harmonic progression. I think what brutalwizard meant was really to practise writing and not worry yourself if the results suck, as you'll be learning what doesn't work which will narrow down what will work. That is, if you analyse the suck.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 14, 2012)

OP, you're getting a lot of flak because of a lack of specificity and asking for advice to write music in what could potentially be seen as a contrived manner. What you really want to do is to expand your musical palette and educate yourself to the ideas that surround the music that you listen to. When worded differently, the tendency for other artists is to disparage that approach for being derivative. However, derivation is one of the most natural ways to learn in my experience; it is, after all, the next step after doing what you already know. In that spirit, let's augment the base of your knowledge.

If you run your mouth about jazz in musician circles you had better be prepared to back up what you're saying, as the only thing I can identify as a constant in jazz is its ability to instill strong, exclusionary (or inclusive - depends on who you talk to and when), and very firm opinions in its practitioners. You have two choices at this point - educate yourself in the history and music of jazz (recommended), or just come out and say that you want to sound like AAL and not attract the spiteful derision of jazz wanklers everywhere. What you really want here is to learn the modern harmonic and melodic language of progressive metal.

I won't tell you how to do that in this post (partially because I'm not a huge fan of that sort of music, and you could probably find out more through self-analysis), but I can talk to you about rhythm all day. There is no offense in using different meters in order to avoid 4. My opinion is that it's hard to get something to feel in 4, since it's so damned static and straight. Of course, there are zillions of examples of good grooves in 4, but there are twenty times as many boring 4 grooves for each one of those. Keep in mind that this will be the case for any meter and that the only reason why delving into other meters will help is because it is advancing your understanding of rhythm. Let's do it to it.

The Beatles - I Want You (She's So Heavy)


I bring this song up to identify two different rhythmic ideas. One of the sections is in the meter of 6, and the other section is in the meter of 4. Now, these numbers are a tad misleading. I'll explain.

0:00 - The meter is 6, but that doesn't mean there are six beats. Rather, there are two beats that are divided into threes. Count "1 & a 2 & a" over and over until the section ends.

0:15 - This is the 4 section. Here, there are four beats that are divided into twos. You can count "1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &" throughout.

1:56 - We return to the 6 section. "1 & a 2 & a" again.

Now, some terminology. We call divisions of the beat by two "simple" and divisions by three "compound". You can remember these groupings through rhythmic syllables; I prefer using Indian konnakol syllables, where "ta ka" is a simple group and
"ta ki ta" is compound, but "taco" and "burrito" work just as well. In balkan music, simple beats are called "short beats" and compound beats are called "long beats". Meters that have all simple divisions are known as simple meters. Here are a few:

Simple 1 - 1 &, 1 &, 1 &... (taco)
Simple 2 - 1 & 2 &, 1 & 2 &, 1 & 2 &... (taco taco)
Simple 3 - 1 & 2 & 3 &, 1 & 2 & 3 &... (taco taco taco)
Simple 4 - 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &, 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & (taco taco taco taco)

And meters with compound divisions are known as compound meters:

Compound 1 (3) - 1 & a, 1 & a... (burrito)
Compound 2 (6) - 1 & a 2 & a, 1 & a 2 & a (burrito burrito)
Compound 3 (9) - 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a, 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a (burrito burrito burrito)
Compound 4 (12) - 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a, 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a (burrito burrito burrito burrito)

See how that works? For compound meters, we multiply the number of beats by the beat's division (3) to get its name, which is what's in the parentheses up there.

Arch Enemy - Exist To Exit


0:50 - It's in 4!
1:45 - It's in 12 (compound 4)!


Genesis - ... In That Quiet Earth


2:20 - It's in 9 (compound 3)!
5:00 - It's in 4!

Hopefully, you have a good handle on the difference between groups of 3's and groups of 2's by now. What we'll do next is to combine the two. When you have both simple (2) and compound (3) divisions in a meter, you end up with an odd meter. The smallest odd meter is 5, which is just one simple group and one compound group. When representing this, we can either say 2+3 or 3+2, depending on how it feels.

Rush - Losing It


0:00 - 5 (3+2)
0:50 - 4
0:58 - 5 (3+2)

We can add groups of 2 and 3 to make larger odd meters. Here's a 7:

Rush - Natural Science


2:22 - 7 (2+2+3)

And so on.

Emerson, Lake and Palmer - Tarkus (Hopefully you're in the US, since this is currently blocked everywhere else.)


0:33 - 10 (2+2+3+3)
0:50 - 4
0:53 - 10 again
0:58 - 5 (2+2+2+2+2, it's a simple 5)
Skip ahead a little...
6:31 - odd 9 (2+2+3+2)

With larger meters, you can sometimes cut it up into smaller bits.

Van Der Graaf Generator - Man Erg


3:00 - 11 (5+6)

Rush - Jacob's Ladder


5:04-6:49 - 13 (6+7)

Hopefully, this will help you to listen to odd meter and utilize it in your music. Rather than going into a treatise on harmony now, I'm going to recommend you to visit this site and learn the theory in the free lessons:

Ricci Adams' Musictheory.net

I have also written on form and songwriting in a number of threads here. There is a list of a bunch of my threads on various subjects in this thread:
http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/mu...-more-complex-death-metal-less-metalcore.html


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## XIII (Jan 25, 2012)

Enselmis said:


> Would you disagree if I said part of what impresses people about AAL is the fact that they can execute everything from an album near flawlessly live?



I would not disagree with that, I would expect them to be able to execute their songs live, due to the complexity in their composition. They are like amazing, sweet, musical caramel!

I don't want to argue either, just, I was confused at the earlier statement, when clearly a jazz element is present in Tosins compositions. Essentially they are not a jazz band, that's not the point I was trying to make. Mainly I was trying to say that jazz elements are there when he is composing songs or soloing. I didn't mean to step on any toes, nor disrespect anyone, just that to give such a bold statement when Tosin himself says that there is jazz elements, needs a friendly checking ( I would expect the same in return). 

You don't need to be a jazz aficionado to recognise that.

Peace Bro


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## Fiction (Jan 25, 2012)

Gather all the bands you want to incorporate into your sound, and listen and analyse the song as best as you can, separate what you want out of each band and take note of structure and dynamics.

For instance, you want the "Jazzy" Elements of AAL, by that, all I can take is his voicings, learn the extensions to chords, I've recently been really focusing on learning this, there's more to guitar then power chords.

Learn intervals and there application, know when to throw in a dissonant (Tension) interval into a breakdown, and when to use your consonants (Resolve). It seems a favourite of bands now to always add that into the breakdown, as you'll be chugging along in your drop tuning 

e |--------10-10-----|
B |--------14-14-----|
G |-------------------|
D |-0--0-0--------0--|
A |-0--0-0--------0--|
D |-0--0-0--------0--|

The Opens would be your Perfect Fifths which are the consonant, and the 10-14 would be a m2 which is the dissonant, so you're throwing in tension to achieve those chaotic breakdowns you'll hear in SS and Whitechapel.

Also, I don't really know my theory, so if any of this wrong, I give any of you theory experts to fix any of this. Anyways, all I really wanted to say is, Focus on the bands you want to be influenced by and study structure, dynamics, playing style, before you can develop your own style, you must work out what your style is.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 25, 2012)

XIII said:


> I don't want to argue either, just, I was confused at the earlier statement, when clearly a jazz element is present in Tosins compositions. Essentially they are not a jazz band, that's not the point I was trying to make. Mainly I was trying to say that jazz elements are there when he is composing songs or soloing. I didn't mean to step on any toes, nor disrespect anyone, just that to give such a bold statement when Tosin himself says that there is jazz elements, needs a friendly checking ( I would expect the same in return).



I'd like to point out that an artist's own interpretation of their art is, while insightful, completely biased. I have no doubt that Tosin Abasi was influenced by jazz and jazz fusion. However, I maintain that there are important stylistic differences between AAL's music and the popular conception of jazz. As Enselmis has already pointed out, improvisation is a central element of jazz and an absent element of the music of AAL. They certainly use the chords, but when you extract harmonies from jazz and reappropriate them, you get late nineteenth/twentieth century harmony, not jazz. Besides, Claude Debussy was using jazz harmony (whole tone scales, diatonic modes, quartal voicings, thirteenth chords, altered dominants) by 1894. Does that make him a jazzer, too? Keep in mind that Jelly Roll Morton claimed to have invented jazz in 1902. And, of course, since he said it, it must be true.


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## XIII (Jan 25, 2012)

SchecterWhore : 

I was originally meaning, when writing parts, my thought is that he would go on a jazz improv style for however long, listen back to what he has played and capture certain phrases or runs and then work around that, it would be at this stage in the writing process my idea of the Jazz element would apply, not as a whole.

But what I now understand you and Enselmis to be pointing out, is the fact that to class something as Jazz, would essentially have to be improvisation off of each band member on a stage/studio/living room/cafe etc, and my idea of him capturing Jazz inspired parts does not in fact make it jazz.

I apologise for the haste, in what hopefully came across as a playful jibe.

Moral of this story, I have decided to go and clue up on Jazz!


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## thedarkoceans (Jan 25, 2012)

Guys,this is like asking "HELP ME WRITING A SONG" lol.
Do what you feel,learn jazz theory and odd signatures,ALSO,you just cant say "I WANT TO PLAY IN ODD SIGNATURES".why? is this a cool thing? cool music isnt always in odd signatures.


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## louzarv1 (Jan 25, 2012)

Just remember to be progressive. As in, always have variations with riffs if you want your music to sound interesting, and not repetitive. But you don't always have to show progression in your riffs. Drums are an excellent tool to transition into another part.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 25, 2012)

Improvisation can be a compositional tool (it has to be), but the act of on-the-spot improvisation is the defining feature of jazz. I consider the act of improvisation and composition to be one in the same, so the only difference in jazz is _when_ you compose.



thedarkoceans said:


> ALSO,you just cant say "I WANT TO PLAY IN ODD SIGNATURES".why? cool music isnt always in odd signatures.



I don't think that this thought should preclude one from educating oneself. Music is as much a craft as it is an art, and there is a lot less magic in it than the majority of Westerners tend to believe. How do you know what you like if you never venture outside of your own walls? Does music have to be some happy accident in order for it to be "good" or "cool"? Music in most parts of the world is learned aurally, with a student emulating a teacher. Is there something invalid in those musicians learning to make the music in the teacher's tradition rather than coming up with a completely new system on their own every generation? Must we all start at square one every day? Ignorance does not beget originality.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 25, 2012)

louzarv1 said:


> Just remember to be progressive. As in, always have variations with riffs if you want your music to sound interesting, and not repetitive. But you don't always have to show progression in your riffs. Drums are an excellent tool to transition into another part.



Variation =/= progressive. Progressive isn't music that goes places in the sense it 'progresses' so much as it was something that was ground breaking at the time and encorporated a lot of musical ideas which were absent from rock music. Those ideas are what make it progressive, variation on theme, and most of those ideas, were already pretty well established.


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## thedarkoceans (Jan 25, 2012)

I just meant that i would hate the idea of "forcing" yourself to play in odd sigs.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 25, 2012)

In order to learn to do something, you have to force yourself to some degree. After all, don't we force ourselves to learn our instruments? to practice? to write music? The knowledge and practice isn't the problem, it's the personality of the musician. It's up to the artist to say whether a certain language suitably expresses them or not. If you don't expose yourself and explore your boundaries, though, how can you ever know? Can you think of one artist who has used an odd meter or something in one song and it suddenly ruined their voice? I can think of people who use certain music ideas excessively or improperly, and it has an impact on how their music is perceived, but I find this to be a function of their lack of voice rather than the materials that they use. As long as you have the language to say everything you want to say, you'll never struggle for words. Simultaneously, I understand where you're coming from: regurgitating some mashup of words and claiming it's your art is not convincing. The music isn't the notes, and it never has been - it's the syntax and idea behind the notes. However, if you only have the ideas and none of the notes, then it's no longer music, it's something different. If you have something to say, you might as well learn the language to say it.



SirMyghin said:


> Variation =/= progressive. Progressive isn't music that goes places in the sense it 'progresses' so much as it was something that was ground breaking at the time and encorporated a lot of musical ideas which were absent from rock music. Those ideas are what make it progressive, variation on theme, and most of those ideas, were already pretty well established.



Righto. There is no concrete element of music that we can label as "progressive". The very term is relative and depends on context. For example, Mozart's use of the clarinet in the orchestra was considered progressive. The modern day orchestra has clarinets in every which way. That is no longer progressive. If you want to be progressive, write a dubstep opera or something.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 25, 2012)

TDO - Forcing yourself to do things is the best way to get creative. Restrictions force you out of your normal thought patterns. Just sitting down and writing something without boundaries leads you to more sames than anything. 



SchecterWhore said:


> Righto. There is no concrete element of music that we can label as "progressive". The very term is relative and depends on context. For example, Mozart's use of the clarinet in the orchestra was considered progressive. The modern day orchestra has clarinets in every which way. That is no longer progressive. If you want to be progressive, write a dubstep opera or something.



That is an important point I missed, progressive, I would say was a movement in the 70s, but thereafter very little progressiveness has been present in rock music as a whole (metal is rock. tough.) The odd time sigs and exotics scales was already done back then, nowadays it is mostly rehash.


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## Blind Theory (Jan 26, 2012)

Well, I don't know much theory. I do know a few things like notes, intervals, major scale and how that works, etc. Since you want to be like Whitechapel and Suicide Silence I suggest you work on some serious riffage on you lowest 3-4 strings from your 12th fret and below. Not trying to box you in, I'm just saying that is generally the area those guys play in. I can't help you with the AAL aspect except to tell you about intervals and how they relate to scales. 

The overwhelming majority of heavy metal music is based on minor scales. So you take the Major Scale; C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C. That is the C Major scale, pretty much the basis of music. Now, the intervals here would be 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8 (the octave). NOW! All you have to do to make this a minor scale (or make any major scale a minor scale) is flat the 3rd and 6th interval. So it would look like this; C, D, Eb, F, G, Ab, B, C. The intervals would look like 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7, 8. There are certain names for this shit but I never bothered learning them because the way I learned it was by flatting numbers, not perfect fifths or whatever the hell it is. Plus, those names can contradict each other and mean different things so saying I flatted or sharped the 3 interval of the scale instead of minor third or major third. 


I utilize that knowledge quite often to get the sound I want. It helps with triads (chords, built from your root [1], 3rd and 5th intervals) and all that jazz as well. I only think in terms of what notes I am playing to determine what scale I am playing in relation to what scale I was playing in another area, that way I can take it and make it a minor (harmonic minor to be specific) scale. It is simple to me and it works, I don't write a lot of Whitechapel/Suicide Silence stuff even though I fucking love them so my methods and knowledge may not help you, I write more like All Shall Perish (TPOE)/As Blood Runs Black (Allegiance)/TBDM/Heaven Shall Burn type stuff so my songs tend to be a LOT more riffy and have less chords in them than what you'd see in WC or SS. Still might help with the AAL aspect, hopefully. Good luck, man.

Also, something that has helped me is to just write. Try your absolute hardest to write the best shit possible for you. Then just keep at it for a long time and eventually the stuff you write will be fucking sick! And the more you write, the more you need to incorporate techniques you want to improve on. Always write something just outside of your level of playing and just go for it until it is there. That is how I have improved in my writing and playing as well. I don't learn other peoples songs anymore, just to note. I feel like at a certain point, you should know enough of what is out there to be able to work on it on your own. Plus if I jam a song I end up writing something way to similar. haha Just try and write and always improve and don't think you have to learn someones song to improve. If anyone tells you that, they are dumb. It helps but it isn't the be all end all way. Just push yourself, take the time to just fucking push yourself. I mean, really fucking push yourself. I will write riffs and work on nailing that ONE riff for 3 hours because it is so hard and you know what? I fucking get it. I push myself and my writing improves and my technique improves and I just improve. And have fun...that is important hahaha


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Jan 27, 2012)

Blind Theory said:


> There are certain names for this shit but I never bothered learning them because the way I learned it was by flatting numbers, not perfect fifths or whatever the hell it is. Plus, those names can contradict each other and mean different things so saying I flatted or sharped the 3 interval of the scale instead of minor third or major third.



Intervals are completely different from scale degrees. In a major scale, the interval (ascending) from 1 to 5 is a perfect fifth. So is 2 to 6. The language is different so that instead of saying "play 5-7, 4-6, 3-5, 2-6, 1-3", you can simplify it, "play 54321 and harmonize it in thirds". It gives a much more complete idea of the music.



> I don't learn other peoples songs anymore, just to note. I feel like at a certain point, you should know enough of what is out there to be able to work on it on your own. Plus if I jam a song I end up writing something way to similar. haha Just try and write and always improve and don't think you have to learn someones song to improve. If anyone tells you that, they are dumb. It helps but it isn't the be all end all way.


I disagree with this statement. One of the best ways to get ideas and venture outside of the artist's comfort zone is to listen to, learn, and perform music. After I started playing Bach, it's like somebody turned a light on in the room and I found a box of counterpoint. Musical growth happens on its own if you make discoveries, and discoveries only happen when you explore.


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## Solodini (Jan 27, 2012)

Yeah, you can explore on your own by changing little things here and there, reversing your previous methods and so on, but you can fast track things by not avoiding working out what people are doing. It can even be as little as, for instance, liking 3 notes of someone else's melody, transcribing it and then changing the notes a bit to learn how to write vaguely similar stuff yourself.


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