# I need help to be more tolerant of other people's taste in music.



## Xaios (Jul 6, 2018)

If I had to guess, practically everyone here is or at least has been a fan of a genre of music that isn't exactly mainstream (metal, prog, Belarusians farting into saxophones). I certainly fall into this category. Because I've come to internalize the (unfortunate) belief that the music I prefer is somehow "better" than other music because it's played with more skill, artistic integrity and isn't simply constructed for mass consumption, I've developed a contemptuous attitude towards the musical tastes of most people I know, a contempt which I have a difficult time hiding.

For example, I was a passenger in a friend's vehicle over the weekend, and he had turned on the satellite radio, and Staind was playing. I liked Staind when I was a teenager, but I started to view them as "tortured radio ballads band" a long time ago, which has made it impossible for me to enjoy them now. Needless to say, my body language conveyed my disdain for the music quite clearly without me consciously trying to do so. Because all my friends are sarcastic assholes (and really, I wouldn't have it any other way), he cranked the volume. If I'm being honest, I probably had it coming for the musical snobbery I've displayed in the past.

Maybe it's just a fact of being human, but I'd like to think I'm mature enough not to flinch in disgust whenever I have to listen to a song I don't like. This is what I need help with. On a deeper level, I'd also like to not just hide it better, but I need to find a way to legitimately not be bothered by it.


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## spudmunkey (Jul 6, 2018)

Work in an office where headphones aren't really practical, and each 1/2 day, someone else gets to pick the music. You just learn to ignore it.  You don't have to like it, but maybe your visceral, involuntary expression of disgust will be calmed. Ha!

This morning was someone's Fleetwood Mac playlist, and right now it's someone else's Prince playlist, and that will play until about 4:30 when the "party people" will turn on something that sounds like it would only ever be played in a strip club. Yesterday morning was someone's Bob Marley playlist, and in the afternoon it was...not sure, but it was a lot of Hozier and 21 Pilots.

Or, just realize music is like food. Not everyone likes every type of cuisine, and that's OK. And, just like food, there's guilty pleasures and simple sweet treats. I'm all game for a 10-course "chef's table" curated dining experience, but sometimes I just want a rice crispies treat. Realizing that something can just be 'catchy', and doesn't have to have any deeper meaning that something that makes your toe tap, is a big deal, too. Not every film is 7th Samurai. Sometimes it's Caddyshack...and that's OK.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 6, 2018)

I've heard the CIA regularly blares death metal at extreme volumes tor break prisoners. Obviously that wouldn't work for most people on this site, so I recommend subjecting yourself to the horrors of Cardi B and Iggy Azalea at concert level volumes. Once you feel properly dead inside (and deaf), it should be no problem to listen to Staind or other wonderful butt rock bands like Five Finger Douche punch


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## Xaios (Jul 6, 2018)

spudmunkey said:


> Work in an office where headphones aren't really practical, and each 1/2 day, someone else gets to pick the music. You just learn to ignore it.  You don't have to like it, but maybe your visceral, involuntary expression of disgust will be calmed. Ha!


Unfortunately I already know this won't work, for me anyway. I worked in an office for 7 years where I was subjected to radio pop day in and day out. If anything, it only served to cement my position.



spudmunkey said:


> Or, just realize music is like food. Not everyone likes every type of cuisine, and that's OK. And, just like food, there's guilty pleasures and simple sweet treats. I'm all game for a 10-course "chef's table" curated dining experience, but sometimes I just want a rice crispies treat. Realizing that something can just be 'catchy', and doesn't have to have any deeper meaning that something that makes your toe tap, is a big deal, too. Not every film is 7th Samurai. Sometimes it's Caddyshack...and that's OK.


Fair point. It's not like I don't have guilty pleasures that fall outside my usual preferences. I remember there was a Tegan & Sara song that was popular that I actually quite enjoyed. However, even in those instances, I can almost identify some similarity that such a song has with the music I enjoy, such as the sense of melody, harmony, or lyrical composition. Otherwise, I just can't do it.


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## ArtDecade (Jul 6, 2018)

Most of the time, I listen to ukulele music and my wife listens to Top-40. We manage to co-exist.


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## TedEH (Jul 6, 2018)

I find what works for me is realizing that, relatively speaking, I'm the one with the more niche tastes, so for every instance where I have to tolerate someone elses terrible music, there are just as many and more who would react as bad or worse to my choices. I think it's fair to recognize that at this point, with so much music available so easily, tastes are so varied, it's less and less likely that anyone is going to have as much overlap in what they like or dislike. I don't go into any situation with an expectation of shared taste for anything.

Something about going into situations with the mindset of "I'm sorry for subjecting you to something I know you won't like" makes me feel better about not liking their music in return.  And removing the expectation of shared taste takes pressure off of social interactions. It can even open up conversational topics: "I don't normally listen to what you do- can you tell me what about it appeals to you?" and then they often are more than willing to dive into all the little details that they're passionate about in their taste, and it makes for good small talk.


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## vilk (Jul 6, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> I've heard the CIA regularly blares death metal at extreme volumes tor break prisoners. Obviously that wouldn't work for most people on this site, so I recommend subjecting yourself to the horrors of Cardi B and Iggy Azalea at concert level volumes. Once you feel properly dead inside (and deaf), it should be no problem to listen to Staind or other wonderful butt rock bands like Five Finger Douche punch



Someone should show them Merzbow 


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I guess I sorta felt this way when I was in high school, but I've since resigned to the idea that it's _my own taste_ which is "poor". I do have to admit, I can understand why someone would hear Lord Worm's vocals and say "wtf this is ridiculous". Same thing for King Diamond I guess 
I have to admit... they are both pretty ridiculous, especially if I were to imagine a context where I'm comparing them with people who appear on American Idol.

I guess I do judge people in a very insignificant, superficial way based on their music, but not necessarily by the genre. I judge them based on how mainstream or non the music they like is. I enjoy classical and opera, I do, but I very rarely listen to them and I'm mostly unfamiliar with it. So when I meet someone who has an in depth knowledge of classical music or especially opera, I find them impressive; I consider them to be on a similar level of music fandom as myself, a metalhead-- that is, a fan of unpopular music. As opposed to people who listen to classic radio rock or top 40 music.

Weirdly, even though it used to not be the case, as time has progressed I've sorta kinda started to consider 90s alternative listeners to be "deeper" than, for example, Bruno Mars or Maroon 5 listeners.


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## TedEH (Jul 6, 2018)

vilk said:


> I've since resigned to the idea that it's _my own taste_ which is "poor".


You beat me to it, sort of.  Can relate to most of what you said.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2018)

Xaios said:


> I remember there was a Tegan & Sara song that was popular that I actually quite enjoyed. However, even in those instances, I can almost identify some similarity that such a song has with the music I enjoy, such as the sense of melody, harmony, or lyrical composition. Otherwise, I just can't do it.



I figured you'd already posted the answer without knowing it .

This is it, in a nutshell. Find *something* to appreciate in the music you're hearing. Sometimes it can be super difficult, but it's possible.


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 6, 2018)

I'm kind of the same way. It doesn't help being a musician and having even a slight grasp on theory. I'll hear the first few bars of a song and I can pretty much tell where the chord change is going, where the melody is going, and if its a radio pop song, probably know half the lyrics before I hear them, so it's not so much that its "bad", its just super BORING to my ear most of the time. I try not say too much unless I know the people I'm with are expecting my snide comments, though.

But then I'll listen to Crosses, or The Black Queen, or Kavinsky on repeat for 2 hours in my heapdhones sometimes...so maybe I'm just an asshole.


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## vilk (Jul 6, 2018)

TedEH said:


> "I'm sorry for subjecting you to something I know you won't like"



It seems like we feel similarly, but one thing I want to say is: don't you find it pretty unfair?

Like, someone puts on their radio pop, classic rock, or even like pop punk and alternative and I don't make a peep. I just hang. But I put on some metal and within 30 seconds someone is like "What is this GARBAGE? This isn't even music _it's just screaming_" and then proceed to change it. It's like, show some respect. It seems like metal listeners are the only group that get subjected to insult before being denied the privileged of listening to their preferred music in a group setting. Yeah, maybe my friends are just jerks, but I'm fairly sure that this is a common thing to happen.

You ever lucky enough to be treated to a _death metal singer_ impersonation, where they adlib some lyrics? Usually always something like: "I'm gonna kill my mom, I'm gonna kill my dad". That's what everyone really thinks metal is. "I'm gonna kill my mom, I'm gonna kill my dad"... it's like really... disheartening.


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## budda (Jul 6, 2018)

Then make rules for who controls the tunes when .


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## groverj3 (Jul 6, 2018)

I feel this, so much. I have no interest in music which I don't find stimulating, and I don't really care to "try to like things" which don't catch my interest. Mostly, this means I have no interest in pop music, or hip hop, etc. Ironically, electronic music is more interesting to me, and although I don't listen to it on my own, if someone puts it on I find it more interesting to listen to. I've gotten to the point where I can just let people listen to whatever and not give it too much thought. If the music doesn't do much for me then I don't feel the need to shit all over it unless my opinion is being sought on it, which it rarely is 

What I do get irritated at is the implication that my taste is somehow "bad" because I don't like a lot of mainstream music. When you start getting suggestions that you should just change your taste so you can listen to what other people like, which is "normal." What I find hilarious though, is that some of the electronic stuff and the more undeground hip hop artists don't really have a following any bigger than the metal, prog rock, jazz, or classical artists I listen to. However, those genres are deemed "normal."

This rears its head particularly with my girlfriend, who listens to hip hop (and the most mainstream kind, at that), top-40s pop, and riot girl bands. She also vehemently hates most of my music. I frankly don't get her distate for it, since a lot of what I listen to (at least with her around) is Dream Theater or I try to find some accessible-sounding Metallica, or In Flames, etc. However, I don't begrudge her for having her tastes, but of course I get to listen to everything she likes in the car, which I don't really bitch about because it seems like an unnecessary thing to complain about since it's really just noise in the background. Usually we just end up listening to NPR


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## groverj3 (Jul 6, 2018)

vilk said:


> It seems like we feel similarly, but one thing I want to say is: don't you find it pretty unfair?
> 
> Like, someone puts on their radio pop, classic rock, or even like pop punk and alternative and I don't make a peep. I just hang. But I put on some metal and within 30 seconds someone is like "What is this GARBAGE? This isn't even music _it's just screaming_" and then proceed to change it. It's like, show some respect. It seems like metal listeners are the only group that get subjected to insult before being denied the privileged of listening to their preferred music in a group setting. Yeah, maybe my friends are just jerks, but I'm fairly sure that this is a common thing to happen.
> 
> You ever lucky enough to be treated to a _death metal singer_ impersonation, where they adlib some lyrics? Usually always something like: "I'm gonna kill my mom, I'm gonna kill my dad". That's what everyone really thinks metal is. "I'm gonna kill my mom, I'm gonna kill my dad"... it's like really... disheartening.



It is pretty unfair. I've pointed this out to friends and usually after a speech of "I find your musical taste vapid and boring, but you don't hear me bitching about it" and some "You're complaining that I don't know anything about (genre X), but you also don't know anything about what I like" usually people shut up. Not always though.

Society has deemed certain things "normal" and you can only change the norms by blasting death metal in the office


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 6, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> Society has deemed certain things "normal" and you can only change the norms by blasting death metal in the office


all I can think of is that scene from Silicon Valley where Gilfoyle blasts Napalm Death over and over as a bitcoin alert


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## TedEH (Jul 6, 2018)

vilk said:


> don't you find it pretty unfair?


I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time, I don't take it all that personally. Mostly because of:


groverj3 said:


> I don't really care to "try to like things" which don't catch my interest


I equally don't put the effort into trying to understand rap or hiphop or pop or country or whatever else, so I don't expect anyone to have put the effort into understanding what I like either. For every time someone has called something I listen to "sceamo" because they don't know anything about heavy music genres, I'm probably also calling something "rap" that really isn't rap. Or I'm probably putting down something as dumb or repetitive because I don't want to bother digging into the nuances that matter to someone who likes it.

I put an effort into not being condescending about music I don't like, but it's just that -> it's effort. I don't fault anyone else for not wanting to put that effort in. Just my


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## TedEH (Jul 6, 2018)

groverj3 said:


> Society has deemed certain things "normal"


Realistically though, outside of a few key genres that are denoted as specifically "the popular ones", there isn't really a "normal" for music anymore. Tastes have grown to be extremely diverse over the last while. Pop only remains "popular" because it's the largest demo, but the largest is still pretty small. Or I would imagine it is. I'm too lazy to actually look it up right now.


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## mongey (Jul 6, 2018)

Art is an opinion. Like what you like , dislike what you dislike. 

As an artist I try hard not be dismissive of anything. Writing a 3 min catchy pop song that resonates with people is hard. Just cause it’s not complicated or difficult to play doesn’t mean there isn’t skill in crafting it.


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## Demiurge (Jul 6, 2018)

Eventually, you just reach a point where it's exhausting to maintain the admitted-music-snob affectation. I'd rather focus my energy on enjoying what I like or discovering new stuff that might interest me over cultivating distress over people liking things that might not be in my wheelhouse. Music- unlike everything else in this dumb world, apparently- doesn't have to be this decisive thing where somebody's a loser and another person is a winner.


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## bhakan (Jul 6, 2018)

Think about your opinions on other forms of media. Would you rather watch and artsy indie film or a summer blockbuster? Or apply the same idea to books, TV, paintings, games, whatever. If you're not interested in in long takes and framing in movies, can you fault others for not caring about virtuosity in music?


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## groverj3 (Jul 6, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Realistically though, outside of a few key genres that are denoted as specifically "the popular ones", there isn't really a "normal" for music anymore. Tastes have grown to be extremely diverse over the last while. Pop only remains "popular" because it's the largest demo, but the largest is still pretty small. Or I would imagine it is. I'm too lazy to actually look it up right now.


I get what you're saying here, and agree with you and the others in the thread in general. However, it does seem that more people have an immediate, visceral, dislike of heavy or progressive rock compared to other non-pop genres. Mostly, thinking of rap/hip-hop. Saying that you like that also doesn't elicit the same "huh, why would you listen to that?" reaction from people who don't know much about the genre.

This is nothing scientific, just anecdotal.

Agreed with others though, let people have their opinions. I just think that you should be allowed to defend yours, too.


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## Quiet Coil (Jul 6, 2018)

Get bigger problems/more responsibilities (e.g. spouse, kids, grandkids, whatever suits you). Then you won’t have the energy to care.


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## Edika (Jul 6, 2018)

Noisy Humbucker said:


> Get bigger problems/more responsibilities (e.g. spouse, kids, grandkids, whatever suits you). Then you won’t have the energy to care.



So much this. My constant playlists consists of nursery rhymes and whatever my daughter finds appealing. I get to make her listen watch some guitar, drum playing and some heavier songs as watches the performance too rather than just listening to the music.

To the main subject I've been through this frame of mind until I realized first that I'm the one with the different tastes, second most people don't want to delve into music as much they just want to have fun and maybe be able to dance to it and third that it's just music. I can speak about my eclectic taste for technical music but it's mostly the intensity that draws me and as I age I seem to seek more structure and melody in songs. I find that some of the songs I enjoy, if you strip some bells and whistles, they could be catchy pop songs lol.

And I do agree with the sentiment that it is really difficult to write a simple catchy pop tune. If it was, everybody would like hits regardless of the simplicity in writing a pop tune.


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## Xaios (Jul 6, 2018)

Edika said:


> second most people don't want to delve into music as much they just want to have fun and maybe be able to dance to it


Just to drill down to this point (don't worry, I did read the rest of your post too ), I do definitely take "music" as a whole more seriously than most people I know IRL. I've never had the capacity to simply put on some tunes and chill out like a normal person would, I'm just too much of an active listener. When I'm listening to music, about the only thing that I can pay more attention to is driving. It feels like the majority of people are content to simply have their music act as background noise for whatever else is going on. Conversely, I tend to be a lot more deconstructive of the music I listen to (although this is likely at least in part owing to the fact that I have perfect pitch).


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## Edika (Jul 7, 2018)

Xaios said:


> Just to drill down to this point (don't worry, I did read the rest of your post too ), I do definitely take "music" as a whole more seriously than most people I know IRL. I've never had the capacity to simply put on some tunes and chill out like a normal person would, I'm just too much of an active listener. When I'm listening to music, about the only thing that I can pay more attention to is driving. It feels like the majority of people are content to simply have their music act as background noise for whatever else is going on. Conversely, I tend to be a lot more deconstructive of the music I listen to (although this is likely at least in part owing to the fact that I have perfect pitch).



Oh I know, I do this myself too. My best friend and I whenever we get together and there's a song we'll analyze the structure, the rhythm patterns, how the bass lines work and tie in with the guitars, the vocals. If our wives are there they'll say that we have "destroyed" their enjoyment of the song for them as they listen to it as the whole product. 

And I was always of the opinion of seeing what's behind the music, listening to more challenging music along with the pop stuff to appreciate music more and give other artists that compose and perform their own music a chance to be successful, not necessarily metal acts as they're not the only genre that produces interesting music. I have classically trained musician friends that have branched out to more strange music paths, mostly Eastern music. And honestly lately my music listenings revolve around metal, metal and metal so in a sense I'm not that openinded to othet types of music. So how can I call myself a music lover if I only like specific genres of music? It's like calling myself a foodie and only eating variations of pasta dishes.

I also realized that I don't do the same of analysis with other art forms. I can if I want to but I enjoy the product more. In movies I get lost in the story and don't pay attention to the details. I saw Shuttet Island and while I enjoyed it tremendously I was surprised it was all in his mind. My wife figured it out early in the movie. I never see mistakes that other people point out, especially if I see a movie once. The same with paintings. I enjoy the painting but will rarely pay attention to brush work and color combinations etc etc. Other friends that are more passionate about these art forms will note all the details I don't pay attention to but would not do the same with music. I have another really good friend that I can't go watch a "simple" movie anymore. He'll always want to watch something that's challenging and most of the times I'll want something to relax and have fun with. Even a mindless blockbuster or a silly comedy. I will be in the mood for something more meaningful and heavier but most of the times I don't. He feels the same as I do for music.

All my above experiences have made me chill out about my same feelings of superiority about music. Most people just have different things they're passionate about and sometimes discussing about those different passions can ignite interest to one another and branch out to new stuff.

However, if I'm blasting something like The Black Dahlia Murder that I find quite melodic, anyone in short distance don't share the same opinion. I'll listen with headphones on though, as everyone does at my work to not annoy the rest. Some people that got a glimpse of what I hear said that it sounds too intense and chaotic to them. And I can accept that.


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## A-Branger (Jul 7, 2018)

I work editing video for weddings. You have no idea the amount of times I ahve to listent to stupid Ed Sherinang, and other 3/4 dumbest "wedding" songs jsut because every single bride out there wants those songs in their video. If you know about video, or have mixed audio, its over and over and over and over... so per each wedding edit I listent to the song by x5 times.

eventually you learn to shut down your brain and ignore that song. Same as when I jump in friends cars, or even at my car I usualyl give the phone cable to my passenger as I know 80% of the time they would cry with my music, or at least they would be cringing internally to be polite lol

as long as its not "yo yo gansta mothafucka [email protected]#r yoyo" hiphop, then Im usually fine with it and I can easily listen it for those 3/5 min

at least you were lucky and got Stain... it could ahve been WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY worse


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## Althos (Jul 7, 2018)

I think your biggest problem is that you're looking at a certain aspect of music while ignoring others, which is why you feel like the bands you like (and you also probably like them because you mostly judge music based on a certain set of criterias) are superior to the rest. 
Music is an art form, and the goal of art is to reach most people, to make them feel (positive) things, make them want to dance, sing, tap their foot, rock their body,... and in that regard, mainstream music, regardless of how it's produced, achieves this goal the best. You have to remember that the appreciation of "higher" forms of music such as prog, jazz, improvisation, 20th century expressionist music... requires time, passion and effort to achieve, and not everyone cares about music to that extent, and it's fine, we all have different interests, I don't know shit about movies for example.


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## Mathemagician (Jul 7, 2018)

Ok here’s a tip that worked for me when I was young.

I realized that girls like whatever they like, and if you’re going to be a giant dildo about it then you’re probably not going to get many girls. Because no one likes getting shat on.

Also you may meet cool people that happen to like say, that by the numbers country pop stuff. If you’re a giant dildo about something as trivial as music, they probably won’t invite you to hang out.

Don’t be a giant dildo and be friendly instead. Music can’t hurt you, it isn’t special and certainly shouldn’t be a major part of a person’s personality/identity. That tends to lead to one-dimensional behavior and personalities. 

Also most metal sounds like ass. You’re a metal fan, you should know this. Lol.


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## wankerness (Jul 7, 2018)

bhakan said:


> Think about your opinions on other forms of media. Would you rather watch and artsy indie film or a summer blockbuster? Or apply the same idea to books, TV, paintings, games, whatever. If you're not interested in in long takes and framing in movies, can you fault others for not caring about virtuosity in music?



I always end up bringing this up in topics that devolve into the circle jerk of "regular people just have bad tastes, here is a study showing people who listen to black metal have higher IQ," or that kind of ridiculous thing. Which is often coming from people who watch, like, the Transformers or Taken movies, which are the filmic equivalent of listening to the absolute lowest-common-denominator dumb guy music. Music alone doesn't make you smarter/better than anyone.

Not that I don't struggle with this myself. I know people that are definitely smarter than myself and much more worldly and into art/film/travel, speak multiple languages, etc who take music VERY SERIOUSLY but listen to treacly indie crap with all the compositional interest of twinkle twinkle little star and all the musicianship of a fifth grade recorder choir. All worth they place on things other than lyrics seems to be in some nebulous area of how much work they think the artist put into it, when my reaction to it is "jesus christ, any moron with a year of acoustic guitar class could produce this." I just keep a poker face at all times and with the 1/10 songs that I find ANYTHING interesting in I'll usually point it out and say something positive about what I like about it. Sometimes it works, and next time I'm around they'll have shifted what they have playing to be more like that and less like the other stuff.

Another thing that often works is to quickly identify something they like that you also do, and excitedly talk about that, and then they'll want to put that (or similar artists) on when you're around. Good candidates for this with the kind of people I associate with are Radiohead, No Means No, Bjork and Steely Dan, YMMV.

I mainly just don't get it, at all. I heard some literal 4 chord crap the other day (E G D C) with some woman just swearing a lot about how mad she was at her boyfriend for dumping her, which you'd THINK would be on the artistic level of that horrid song about keying the boyfriend's car, but for some reason it was being blared in an indie record store between some fuzzy post-rock and Bjork (both of which I like). What in the everloving fuck?! I hate music.

In summation, learn to ignore stuff. And get a job where everyone has their own office so music having to be "picked" isn't a thing! I went a few years with that happening where I was so desperate that I started liking that Feist song with the lyrics "1 2 3 4 5 6 9 10" since at least it was better than 80% of the other stuff that was being played. I think I'm probably still recoiling in disgust when I hear someone crank up certain things, but I think it's pretty much unnoticeable, and as long as it's at a reasonable volume I can talk over it without grimacing in pain.

This doesn't apply to really loud dumb guy music, but fortunately I don't really hear that anymore as I don't hang around with anyone savage enough to listen to like, AC DC and Ted Nugent and their inferior companions.


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## Avedas (Jul 7, 2018)

Is this high school lmao. Instead of genres of music just imagine you're talking about different types of food. Now realize how stupid the entire thing sounds and walk away from it.


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## wat (Jul 7, 2018)

My friends listen to basic shit and I tell them regularly.


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## wankerness (Jul 7, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Is this high school lmao. Instead of genres of music just imagine you're talking about different types of food. Now realize how stupid the entire thing sounds and walk away from it.



The difference is people aren't constantly eating food at work and shoving it into your mouth the whole time that they do.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 7, 2018)

I’ve never got to listen to what “I want” on a jobsite or anywhere else for that matter. Music is super personal for me so I don’t expect other people to feel my moods and opinions on music. I also don’t look at genres and bands as a whole...I cherry pick things I like and ignore facets of the music that I don’t. I love Jeff Hanneman but I’m not a huge Slayer fan and so on...things like that, nor does others music bother me. Brittney Spears? whatever...Loverboy?...cool lol


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## dozicusmaximus (Jul 7, 2018)

I know how you feel. I can generally find something to appreciate in most songs other people enjoy. But there are exceptions and those exceptions can make me react in a way I'd rather not. That song "Sale" or whatever that came out a few years back is one. Utter disgust written all over my face and body language. If I couldn't leave the area where it was playing I would turn it off. There's also a xmas song Paul McCartney wrote that has done the same thing to me since childhood. Oh, and Bob Dylan.....
I'm happy to "dj" at parties and not listen to metal, prog, post punk, and anything abrasive or challenging.
I am the same with movies. 80% of anything Marvel, I'm out. If I'm watching movies alone I like horror or more cerebral stuff. But, I do like Ozu films.
And I'm done rambling.


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## Necris (Jul 7, 2018)

You need to make a more concerted effort to find even a single aspect you can appreciate in music you find excruciating. You claim to be an active listener, so it shouldn't be too much of a challenge. You probably won't enjoy the music as a whole, but maybe you won't be noticeably grimacing as it pours out of the speakers.


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## buriedoutback (Jul 7, 2018)

vilk said:


> Like, someone puts on their radio pop, classic rock, or even like pop punk and alternative and I don't make a peep. I just hang. But I put on some metal and within 30 seconds someone is like "What is this GARBAGE? This isn't even music _it's just screaming_" and then proceed to change it. It's like, show some respect. It seems like metal listeners are the only group that get subjected to insult before being denied the privileged of listening to their preferred music in a group setting. Yeah, maybe my friends are just jerks, but I'm fairly sure that this is a common thing to happen.
> 
> You ever lucky enough to be treated to a _death metal singer_ impersonation, where they adlib some lyrics? Usually always something like: "I'm gonna kill my mom, I'm gonna kill my dad". That's what everyone really thinks metal is. "I'm gonna kill my mom, I'm gonna kill my dad"... it's like really... disheartening.



Here I was thinking 'maybe i'm the asshole cause i like super niche extreme-music...' then you sum up perfectly what happens when i want to listen to 1 death metal song at a party full of ppl who hate metal. 

i say fuck em. makes me think of the Costanza rant from "the baby shower" :

"You think I'm some sort of a loser, that likes to be abused and ignored?! Who's shirt can be ruined without financial restitution?! Some sort of a masochist who enjoys being humiliated? You think you can avoid me like I have some sort of disease?! You have the disease! You have the disease! You may be beautiful and rich and physically .. just .. unbelievable, but you sicken me! You disgust me! You and everyone like you!"


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## bhakan (Jul 7, 2018)

wankerness said:


> ...Not that I don't struggle with this myself. I know people that are definitely smarter than myself and much more worldly and into art/film/travel, speak multiple languages, etc who take music VERY SERIOUSLY but listen to treacly indie crap with all the compositional interest of twinkle twinkle little star and all the musicianship of a fifth grade recorder choir. All worth they place on things other than lyrics seems to be in some nebulous area of how much work they think the artist put into it, when my reaction to it is "jesus christ, any moron with a year of acoustic guitar class could produce this."...


My solution was to find something I enjoy whose musical merits I can't defend on an objective level. Like there's some doom stuff that I love, but playing three simple pentatonic riffs you stole from Tony Iommi for 10 minutes through 8 fuzz pedals while yelling about weed isn't really the pinnacle of interesting composition or musical virtuosity. It's really not much different than "some literal 4 chord crap with some woman just swearing a lot about how mad she was at her boyfriend for dumping her" other than the fact that one sounds sick to me and the other incredibly annoying.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 7, 2018)

Just don't be an asshole. Is it really that difficult?

I mean, is it really so difficult to the point that the OP has become self-conscious about it and now felt like he had to create a post/thread here on a forum so that he can feel good about himself by giving off this guise of wanting to rid himself of this intolerant behavior?

Taste in music is just another personal thing that varies from person to person based on an individual's interests. Like movies. And dare I say that the two are sadly starting to become like politics and religion - meaning, things that we can't discuss because people have become so ridiculously opinionated and self-centric (with this "my taste is superior and you're lesser intellectually because of your taste", which is just another version of: "I'm right and you're wrong").


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 7, 2018)

I'm generally pretty tolerant of musical tastes, but to be honest with you, I'm more able to listen to bubble gum pop than something from Puddle of Mudd or Five Finger Death Punch. The worst form of musical taste though? Fucking Christmas music and before I get crucified here (any perceived humor was not intentional) just try working in a store around Christmas time when they've got Christmas music ALL month long, the same few songs, all day long.


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## rokket2005 (Jul 8, 2018)

Most Christmas music is terrible. But Mannheim Steamroller's 1984 and Fresh Aire? Fucking GOLD.


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## Mathemagician (Jul 8, 2018)

buriedoutback said:


> Here I was thinking 'maybe i'm the asshole cause i like super niche extreme-music...' then you sum up perfectly what happens when i want to listen to 1 death metal song at a party full of ppl who hate metal.



Why would you play death metal at a party? 

Especially if everyone else there doesn’t like metal.

How hard is it for some of you to drop the “macho” bullshit for a minute and just read the room?


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> Why would you play death metal at a party?
> 
> Especially if everyone else there doesn’t like metal.
> 
> How hard is it for some of you to drop the “macho” bullshit for a minute and just read the room?




Has nothing to do with macho bullshit. It has everything to do with the fact that metal is still constantly being ostracized while expecting everyone to be cool with songs that took 10 minutes and the same amount of writers to write. Of course, being a musician doesn't help because you know exactly what goes into that kind of music compared to something that requires more skill and technicality to pull off.


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## wankerness (Jul 8, 2018)

Mathemagician said:


> Why would you play death metal at a party?
> 
> Especially if everyone else there doesn’t like metal.
> 
> How hard is it for some of you to drop the “macho” bullshit for a minute and just read the room?



Of course, it's easy to read the room, it just doesn't mean I have to LIKE it. 

And yeah, of course people have different tastes. It just happens some of them are wrong. 

(most of what I listen to isn't technical or metal FTR)


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## Mathemagician (Jul 8, 2018)

Ok... so? 

Michael Bay summer blockbusters still have a place. Not every movie is going to tackle difficult subject matter and make the viewer grow. 

Nobody cares how “complex” music is. Most people just want to have a good time, and metal really is not conducive to that. It’s abrasive and really requires the listener to try to pay attention. 

You go to a party to talk to people, not listen to the background music. I wouldn’t want to hear metal at a dance club either. 

What is even the point of trying to champion a music genre? Plenty of people out there listen to only rap/R&B/pop but do have a metal playlist on Spotify for the gym. 

In my experience, the people who primarily get upset about it are metalheads getting salty about not being able to make other people listen to metal.


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## wat (Jul 8, 2018)

Extreme metal is sonically unique in that it is intentionally made to be abrasive, pummeling and relentless. 

Music being appropriate or not appropriate for a setting is a real thing.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

.....Nah, fuck everything but metal.


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## buriedoutback (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Has nothing to do with macho bullshit. It has everything to do with the fact that metal is still constantly being ostracized while expecting everyone to be cool with songs that took 10 minutes and the same amount of writers to write. Of course, being a musician doesn't help because you know exactly what goes into that kind of music compared to something that requires more skill and technicality to pull off.



this guy gets it. i don't thinks its unreasonable to request 1 song i like in the middle of 100 that i don't like.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 8, 2018)

if i'm going to a party, i better be hearing Waka Flocka Flame and not djent or some other bullshit


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> if i'm going to a party, i better be hearing Waka Flocka Flame and not djent or some other bullshit




That's just the thing though, it doesn't even necessarily have to be djent or anything like that. Metal is a broad term for many many different types of subgenres. Hell, Deftones falls under metal, Sabbath falls under metal. You could easily play some Korn or Limp Bizkit at a party and it would jive with the theme, would it not? I'm not saying go to a party and just blare fucking Bloodbath, but what I am saying is that I think there are certain styles of metal that would appeal at a party.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 8, 2018)

dawg, nobody has played korn, limp bizkit, or deftones at a party since 1998


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> dawg, nobody has played korn, limp bizkit, or deftones at a party since 1998




And no one has used "dawg" when addressing someone since around the same time.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 8, 2018)

don't let the guy with the tripp pants get near the Spotify


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> don't let the guy with the tripp pants get near the Spotify



Yeah I mean, God forbid everyone else other than metal heads be more tolerant of other types of music. I mean I personally don't think that "fuck bitches, get money" type of mentalities along with the every other word being a racial slur is all that entertaining, but I guess that's what party folk like.


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## Avedas (Jul 8, 2018)

This thread is making me laugh my ass off


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson irl


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> PunkBillCarson irl




Now look at you getting all personal. I've made no personal digs at you and... here you are.


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## auxioluck (Jul 8, 2018)

I used to be "that guy" that would force metal into jukeboxes at bars or at party stereos for hours.

Then I got older.

And I realized that no one gave a shit that I listened to metal.

Then I got older still.

And I realized that music should just be celebrated for what it is, regardless of what it sounds like. And also, part of being a functioning adult is sucking it up sometimes and accepting other people's opinions whether you like them or not.


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## The Mirror (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Has nothing to do with macho bullshit. It has everything to do with the fact that metal is still constantly being ostracized while expecting everyone to be cool with songs that took 10 minutes and the same amount of writers to write.



But why does it have to be fucking Death Metal. At a party? 

Give those guys some heavy music that isn't the total opposite of what they are used to. There are so many great, technical metal bands out there that aren't cookie monster blastbeat madness.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Now look at you getting all personal. I've made no personal digs at you and... here you are.


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## lurè (Jul 8, 2018)

Best music for a party is shitty 90s techno.
I don't want to go to a party and listen to the entire cannibal corpse discography.


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## Edika (Jul 8, 2018)

Unless the party or the party of people listen to metal it is highly unlikely they'll enjoy most metal songs. And even then depending on the type of metal each one of them listens to you might get them arguing with each other. I knew a guy that thought all bands copied Malmsteen and Iron Maiden. There wasn't a band he could not back trace to those two. Imagine having that guy at your metal party.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 8, 2018)

Edika said:


> Unless the party or the party of people listen to metal it is highly unlikely they'll enjoy most metal songs. And even then depending on the type of metal each one of them listens to you might get them arguing with each other. I knew a guy that thought all bands copied Malmsteen and Iron Maiden. There wasn't a band he could not back trace to those two. Imagine having that guy at your metal party.


still better than when my cousin spent years on an Emmure/Acacia Strain kick


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

The Mirror said:


> But why does it have to be fucking Death Metal. At a party?
> 
> Give those guys some heavy music that isn't the total opposite of what they are used to. There are so many great, technical metal bands out there that aren't cookie monster blastbeat madness.




I didn't say it has to be death metal though. Like I said, metal covers many different styles. I mean fuck, you mean to tell me that someone at a party wouldn't like hearing Cult of Personality or Epic at a party? Both are fairly non-metal fan friendly.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

KnightBrolaire said:


> still better than when my cousin spent years on an Emmure/Acacia Strain kick




Goddamn, I cannot stand Acacia Strain...


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## Necris (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Has nothing to do with macho bullshit. It has everything to do with the fact that metal is still constantly being ostracized while expecting everyone to be cool with songs that took 10 minutes and the same amount of writers to write. Of course, being a musician doesn't help because you know exactly what goes into that kind of music compared to something that requires more skill and technicality to pull off.


When I picture someone throwing on a death metal track at a party where no-one listens to any form of metal I either interpret it as "macho bullshit", attention seeking, or someone desperate to assert his/her individuality. "I may be at this party but the normies have to know that I'm not like them." It's the sort of thing you'd reasonably expect someone to outgrow by their late teens.

Who cares whether metal is ostracized? I could be totally misreading you/putting words in your mouth but it sounds like you want your tastes to be validated, more than anything. I remember being on another forum and this same sort of thing came up, some guy wanted to be an "ambassador for metal" and wanted to be able to show people that metal really does take skill to perform. My question was the same as it is now; why do you care whether or not people can appreciate the skill that goes into metal? The only answer I can come up with is that there's some assumption being made that if a person who doesn't listen to metal can be made to appreciate the skill involved then they won't simply mark you down as person with poor musical taste even if they don't enjoy the genre. I don't see how there's any value in that.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

Necris said:


> When I picture someone throwing on a death metal track at a party where no-one listens to any form of metal I either interpret it as "macho bullshit", attention seeking, or someone desperate to assert his/her individuality. "I may be at this party but the normies have to know that I'm not like them." It's the sort of thing you'd reasonably expect someone to outgrow by their late teens.
> 
> Who cares whether metal is ostracized? I could be totally misreading you/putting words in your mouth but it sounds like you want your tastes to be validated, more than anything. I remember being on another forum and this same sort of thing came up, some guy wanted to be an "ambassador for metal" and wanted to be able to show people that metal really does take skill to perform. My question was the same as it is now; why do you care whether or not people can appreciate the skill that goes into metal? The only answer I can come up with is that there's some assumption being made that if a person who doesn't listen to metal can be made to appreciate the skill involved then they won't simply mark you down as person with poor musical taste even if they don't enjoy the genre. I don't see how there's any value in that.




That's exactly what you're doing. I guess the rest of my posts regarding this subject will go unnoticed being that I've said twice now that METAL (not death metal) encompasses many different styles.

Also, it's nothing to do with being validated but if I'm expected to show tolerance towards music that I don't like, I expect the same courtesy. If we're just going to act as if metal as a whole is something that needs to be treated differently, then people need to just come out and say it. It's as ignorant when someone says that metal is nothing but screaming when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary as me saying all rappers are black, talk about gang violence, and disrespect women.

Both genres have their extremes and it seems to me that people often recognize those extremes first instead of trying to think for themselves and at least make a conscious effort to understand that not all music in a particular genre is the same. It's more about fair is fair. It's not about trying to push my agenda. Sometimes I hear one too many pop songs and then I want to listen to what -I- want to listen to. If I can't do that, then it's not fair, is it? I get the feeling that a lot of you are reading entirely too much into someone wanting to hear a metal song for a change of pace, and if that's the case, there's no hope for any kind of further discussion because like any other discussion here, it's just going to go around in circles and no one will be convinced.

TL;DR Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.


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## Necris (Jul 8, 2018)

Sorry, I made things unclear, you said it had nothing to do with "macho bullshit" and I was merely replying that I perceive that hypothetical situation differently. The latter half of the post was addressing the rest of your post and the claim that "metal is ostracized".


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

Necris said:


> Sorry, I made things unclear, you said it had nothing to do with "macho bullshit" and I was merely replying that I perceive that hypothetical situation differently. The latter half of the post was addressing the rest of your post and the claim that "metal is ostracized".




When I say that metal is ostracized, I mean to say (and maybe it's not the same thing) that it gets treated differently than pretty much any other genre despite the fact that it's easily the most flexible. Also, when it comes to "macho bullshit" I can think of TWO bands that give off that vibe more than any other, and that's Five Finger Death Punch and Manowar.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Goddamn, I cannot stand Acacia Strain...


they're both trash bands as far as i'm concerned. i like chugs and some breakdowns, but 95% of core bands take it too far imo


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## Avedas (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> When I say that metal is ostracized, I mean to say (and maybe it's not the same thing) that it gets treated differently than pretty much any other genre despite the fact that it's easily the most flexible. Also, when it comes to "macho bullshit" I can think of TWO bands that give off that vibe more than any other, and that's Five Finger Death Punch and Manowar.


95% of metal is unlistenable though so I don't blame those people.

Anyway if you think metal is ostracized, try putting on country tunes at a party with no North American white people. At least with metal you can play some 00's nu-metal for the nostalgia effect or some random Guitar Hero song that probably everybody played 10 years ago. Country on the other hand has nothing going for it.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

Avedas said:


> 95% of metal is unlistenable though so I don't blame those people.
> 
> Anyway if you think metal is ostracized, try putting on country tunes at a party with no North American white people. At least with metal you can play some 00's nu-metal for the nostalgia effect or some random Guitar Hero song that probably everybody played 10 years ago. Country on the other hand has nothing going for it.




Okay, that second paragraph is exactly what I've been trying to explain so... Also, 95 percent of all statistics are made up.


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## buriedoutback (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Also, it's nothing to do with being validated but if I'm expected to show tolerance towards music that I don't like, I expect the same courtesy. If we're just going to act as if metal as a whole is something that needs to be treated differently, then people need to just come out and say it. It's as ignorant when someone says that metal is nothing but screaming when there's plenty of evidence to the contrary as me saying all rappers are black, talk about gang violence, and disrespect women.
> 
> Both genres have their extremes and it seems to me that people often recognize those extremes first instead of trying to think for themselves and at least make a conscious effort to understand that not all music in a particular genre is the same. It's more about fair is fair. It's not about trying to push my agenda. Sometimes I hear one too many pop songs and then I want to listen to what -I- want to listen to. If I can't do that, then it's not fair, is it? I get the feeling that a lot of you are _reading entirely too much into someone wanting to hear a metal song for a change of pace_, and if that's the case, there's no hope for any kind of further discussion because like any other discussion here, it's just going to go around in circles and no one will be convinced.


Once again dude, you are totally on point. The italic part especially. Cheers!

i suggested 'death metal' in my post cause that's what i like the most. ya, there are many styles of metal, just like in every genre. admittedly, sometimes i'm in the mood for 1 of the wintersun songs with clean singing, sometimes i want to hear beneath the massacre... ppl really can't take a 5 min break from hours of pop,techno and country? the simple answer is, sometimes no, no they can't.
also, i'm not forcing ppl out of the way and commandeering the music device like some maniac... i'll ask nicely and i don't get upset if they say no... 

'we're living in a society!'


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## Vyn (Jul 8, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Anyway if you think metal is ostracized, try putting on country tunes at a party with no North American white people. At least with metal you can play some 00's nu-metal for the nostalgia effect or some random Guitar Hero song that probably everybody played 10 years ago. Country on the other hand has nothing going for it.



QFT. Country is actually how my friends and I deal with our different tastes in music because we all have a strong level of hate for it. I'll listen to wub-wub or "Imma bust a cap in yo as" all day long if it means not listing to country.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

buriedoutback said:


> Once again dude, you are totally on point. The italic part especially. Cheers!
> 
> i suggested 'death metal' in my post cause that's what i like the most. ya, there are many styles of metal, just like in every genre. admittedly, sometimes i'm in the mood for 1 of the wintersun songs with clean singing, sometimes i want to hear beneath the massacre... ppl really can't take a 5 min break from hours of pop,techno and country? the simple answer is, sometimes no, no they can't.
> also, i'm not forcing ppl out of the way and commandeering the music device like some maniac... i'll ask nicely and i don't get upset if they say no...
> ...




Let me post some lyrics from the kind of shit these people listen to at parties:

Yo! I never fucked Wayne, I never fucked Drake
On my life, man, fuck's sake
If I did, I'd ménage with em and let em eat my ass like a cupcake
My man full, he just ate, I don't duck nobody but tape
Yeah, that was a setup for a punchline on duct tape
Worried 'bout if my butt fake
Worry 'bout y'all niggas, us straight
Th-these girls are my sons, Jo-John & Kate Plus Eight
When I walk in, sit up straight, I don't give a fuck if I was late

That's Nicki Minaj, whom I understand gets plenty of fucking radio play. In the first three lines, we're already to eating someone's asshole. Whether it did or didn't happen is irrelevant. This plus beats is what people listen to at parties and all I'm begging for is one song even for fucking Crazy Train to give my brain a break. From my understanding, it took six people to write that load of shit that I quoted up there. If it's too much for me to ask to listen to a lighter metal song, even a fucking Staind song (because at that point, I'm that desperate) then I'd say it's a valid argument.


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## buriedoutback (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> That's Nicki Minaj, whom I understand gets plenty of fucking radio play. In the first three lines, we're already to eating someone's asshole. Whether it did or didn't happen is irrelevant. This plus beats is what people listen to at parties and all I'm begging for is one song even for fucking Crazy Train to give my brain a break. From my understanding, it took six people to write that load of shit that I quoted up there. If it's too much for me to ask to listen to a lighter metal song, even a fucking Staind song (because at that point, I'm that desperate) then I'd say it's a valid argument.


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## Avedas (Jul 8, 2018)

Hip hop is probably the overall best genre of music tho


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> That's Nicki Minaj, whom I understand gets plenty of fucking radio play.


And you have no idea how the pop music side of the industry works and how labels pay all over (radio, internet, apps like Spotify, etc.) to push singles on the airwaves that execs want to use as both tastemaking and as marketing to drive the artist's sales.

Idiotic masses are persuaded by a pop tune (written and structured to an exact formula for an exact purpose) that is beat into their skull through mind-numbing repetition in cars, stores, internet, TV, etc. They'll eventually grow to like it and not even be able to give an explanation as to why. It's all part of the process.

The music business is a sales business. Who are you to try to impose your personal tastes (which not everyone shares, nor _has to_ share) by acting out as a poor means of antithetical, socially rebellious behavior just to make yourself feel special? ("Oh hey, everyone! I'm just going to ignore the circumstances of this room and selfishly play some metal that totally doesn't fit the situation and that I know you won't like. But eh, if you don't like it, fuck you!" *_proceeds to chug shitty, lower-tier beer_*)


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## Demiurge (Jul 8, 2018)

I think if we're going to start busting on rap lyrics, _every metal band that has made a lyric video, ever_ needs to delete their youtube account first.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> And you have no idea how the pop music side of the industry works and how labels pay all over (radio, internet, apps like Spotify, etc.) to push singles on the airwaves that execs want to use as both tastemaking and as marketing to drive the artist's sales.
> 
> Idiotic masses are persuaded by a pop tune (written and structured to an exact formula for an exact purpose) that is beat into their skull through mind-numbing repetition in cars, stores, internet, TV, etc. They'll eventually grow to like it and not even be able to give an explanation as to why. It's all part of the process.
> 
> The music business is a sales business. Who are you to try to impose your personal tastes (which not everyone shares, nor _has to_ share) by acting out as a poor means of antithetical, socially rebellious behavior just to make yourself feel special? ("Oh hey, everyone! I'm just going to ignore the circumstances of this room and selfishly play some metal that totally doesn't fit the situation and that I know you won't like. But eh, if you don't like it, fuck you!" *_proceeds to chug shitty, lower-tier beer_*)




I've already explained everything I need to explain. Obviously you cannot effectively retort since you had to resort to personal insult at the bottom of your post. It's also a sign given everything you've typed here that you've clearly missed nearly every point that I brought up apart from the less serious "metal, fuck everyone else" post I had up there. You chose to implement that and nothing else which suggests either a lack of will to try and understand where I was coming from and you just use what you want to suit your argument or you just simply refuse to try and understand any else's viewpoint that doesn't fit yours. I've even stated that I can tolerate some pop music compared to music from my own genre, but you missed that because you couldn't wait to type out that last little line about chugging beer. Thought it'd give you a bit of edge, didn't you? How ironic, being what you're calling me out for what you very mistakenly think that I'm doing by listening to metal music.

So tell me _Almighty Ruler Who Lives Somewhere Under The Pacific Ocean, _do you feel better after all that?


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## mongey (Jul 8, 2018)

wat said:


> Extreme metal is sonically unique in that it is intentionally made to be abrasive, pummeling and relentless.
> 
> Music being appropriate or not appropriate for a setting is a real thing.



while I totally agree with this

Music being appropriate or not appropriate for a setting is a real thing.

I don't agree metal is unique in abrasiveness and its intention . There's a ton of EDM styles and producers doing it. I even say someone like aphex twin ,who is pretty mainstream these days , has tracks more abrasive than a good portion of extreme metal . and again its a special kind of party that everyone is going to vibe on that stuff


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## TedEH (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> When I say that metal is ostracized, I mean to say (and maybe it's not the same thing) that it gets treated differently than pretty much any other genre


I'm a bit late to this party, I think - but really? Think about this for a moment. In this thread (and presumably at any party, or in any conversation you've had with "normy" non-metal listeners), we're constantly ostracizing:

- Pop music
- Anything that can be called Top 40
- Anything that gets radio play or publicity (out of jealousy maybe?)
- Rap
- Hip-hop
- Country
- Electronic music
- People's desire to dance or have fun (because this is different from our desire to BE BRUTAL FOR SOME REASON AAAAARGH SOMETHING SOMETHING MACHO)
- Anything we can deride for being "not complicated/sophisticated enough" for our elite tastes
- Anything that we've decided has somehow violated some unwritten rules about the integrity of music and artists (not real instruments? Auto-tune?)

Has anyone made fun of classical music yet? Or is that up to our high standards of musical sophistication?

At the end of the day everyone thinks everyone else listens to terrible music, but for some reason the metalheads in the room insist on being elitist d*cks about it.

I think it's important to notice that if you keep getting into confrontations over music taste that you might be the common denominator.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 8, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I'm a bit late to this party, I think - but really? Think about this for a moment. In this thread (and presumably at any party, or in any conversation you've had with "normy" non-metal listeners), we're constantly ostracizing:
> 
> - Pop music
> - Anything that can be called Top 40
> ...




You do realize that much of this site is inhabited by people who love metal and as such is a very small part of the music listening population all over the world, right? As such there is a very small amount of people who listen to metal compared to those that listen to all of the above that you listed.

Anywho, it is what it is. I just know that I like hearing metal and it has nothing to do with anti-social behavior or pushing an agenda or chugging cheap beer as ol' Mr. I think I'm a God That Lives Under The Ocean would have anyone believe. I've made my points, obviously none of you except for maybe a couple understand and instead try to blatantly ignore points that I've made. There's nothing more for me to say here.


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## TedEH (Jul 8, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> You do realize that much of this site is inhabited by people who love metal and as such is a very small part of the music listening population all over the world, right?


Yup, and that fits perfectly well with what I said.

You claimed that metal is unique in that it gets ostracized. That's not even close to true. Almost every genre gets torn to shreds by the people who don't like it or don't understand it. I do it too.


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## bhakan (Jul 8, 2018)

Yea metal is not at all unique to being ostracized or unacceptable at parties. Country, jazz, classical, emo, etc. are all likely to go over poorly. Also, hip hop and electronic may be the go to "party" music but only certain examples of the genre work for the environment. I don't think clipping or Aphex Twin would go over much better than metal.


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## KnightBrolaire (Jul 8, 2018)

I love metal, but I'm not going to play Stabwound by Necrophagist at a wine tasting (maybe at the tail end of a 3 kegger to clear people out of the house). 
Everyone knows that Richard Cheese's cover of Hammer Smashed Face would be perfect for a wine tasting though 
I have been to parties where jazz/classical were played, though they were parties hosted by people in their mid 30s sipping wine, not 18 year olds trying to get shitfaced on PBR. 
You have to know your audience/demographics before playing a lot of music.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jul 9, 2018)

Some of you guys need to lighten up about other peoples taste in music and what gets played at a party. "Errrr why dont they play some metal here?" probably because metal isn't exactly the most fun music to try groove to while you're hammered at a party. I would never expect to go to a party with people my age and hear anything even resembling a metal song, I don't need someone to throw on some metal just so I don't have to "suffer" through the other music that gets played, give me some hood ass rap or some EDM/top 40 to groove to and I'll have a great time, along with everyone else. Metal fans are the whiniest bunch of people I've ever talked to when it comes to other genres of music, can't you fucks just not like a song without being insufferably annoying about it?


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## Sogradde (Jul 9, 2018)

I find the "metal is being ostracized" argument really funny because historically, heavy metal (much like punk) was a counter culture. The entire point of metal is to be ostracized and noncomformist. 

I still enjoy Taylor Swift though.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Let me post some lyrics from the kind of shit these people listen to at parties: <snip>



Your issue is that you found a musical genre you liked and then you've actually never looked beyond that.

Instead of having it demonstrated to you just how wide and vastly different the world of music can be, you've burrowed down and down and down into progressively less and less different music, absorbing the most minute differences with the same kind of importance placed on them, as most people would place on the difference between Chuck Berry and Jimi Hendrix.

The fact you want to attack hip-hop so much just speaks, so very much to this mindset. Sure, people at parties who don't know any better will put on Iggy Azalea or Nicki Minaj.

But you know what? Those same people will gladly listen to Wu-Tang Clan, Eminem, Nujabes, J Dilla, the Roots, Kool and the Gang, etc. Hell, they'll listen to Twista, they'll listen to Busta Rhymes, they'll listen to any number of really technically sound and solid hip-hop artists. They'll sit and nod along to One Be Lo, Run The Jewels, etc.

The issue here is that YOU won't listen to those solid examples of Hip-Hop either. You clearly believe the genre is entirely bankrupt when nothing could be further from the truth.

Break apart hip hop and you have a list of characteristics that are just as hard to combine as anything in rock and metal. Sure, Yngwie has put all the time and effort into being as good as he is. But so has Dan Bull, so did Black Thought, so did Canibus, Eminem, KRS-One, etc.

What they're doing is *HARD* to do and deserves more respect and more credit than you're willing to give it, and that's your issue - You don't respect it despite the fact you know nothing about it and you're using your own preferences and knowledge about metal as a cudgel, slamming it down on other styles of music because you'd rather proclaim that Metal is the "best" rather than expose yourself to a musical style with depth you don't understand and appreciate.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jul 9, 2018)

I wouldn't go to a party of non metal people and even try putting on most of the stuff I listen to. I've gone to plenty of parties with coworkers and had to just deal with the obnoxious poppy hip hop r&b garbage that was played. It's just how it is. But who cares? I knew it going in. And honestly I'd rather hear some horrid "yo diggity dawg" hip hop or dance hall crap that's gonna make girls wanna drink and shake their asses than annoy them with Insomnium. Lol And I still had a great time at the parties. 

The music has to be fitting to the environment, as others have said. I can go to my cousin's parties where yea, there will be pop and hip hop played, as well as Staind and Distubed type rock, definitely some country, and I know I can throw in something like Mastadon or Russian Circles and people will dig it and it'll be fine. But I'm not gonna throw on anything with screaming or pig squeals because it would just serve to annoy people. I'm not gonna be that guy at the party.

Idk, I'm 40 yrs old and accepted the fact, long ago, that the vast majority of society will hear what most of us here listen to on this site and say "wtf is this, this isn't even music?" And that's fine, it doesn't hurt my feelings or stop me from loving it.


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## lurè (Jul 9, 2018)

Simply go to a party with the expectations of going to a party and not to a metal concert.
Having fun and socializing should be your n°1 priority, music is just a contour.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> "yo diggity dawg"


Not directed at you in particular, I just really enjoy the way we talk about this kind of music in the same thread that we complain about how people don't understand the stuff we like either.  For every "Yo Diggity Dawg", there's an equal and opposite "is this some kind of Screamo?" comment going the opposite direction.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 9, 2018)

Uh uh yeah uh uhn uhh yeah [sample/rendition] . Best played with 1500 watts at stop light. Tolerated.


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## bostjan (Jul 9, 2018)

No genre of music is complete shit, but there certainly are plenty of songs that are utter garbage. There are plenty of top 40 songs that have some value, usually by relate-able lyrics. Metal has plenty of garbage songs. I think you could argue that some artists' entire repertoires are worthless, but you never know, that same artist could come out with something actually good tomorrow...

If you don't like a particular genre, I think it's totally fair to say so, but, at the same time, maybe you haven't found the right song to make an exception, and that song may well exist.

But, that all said, anyone who ever said they liked a pop song "because it had a good beat" is being willfully ignorant. "Bump chump bump chump bump chump bump chump..." is a good beat, yes, but, 99.999...% chance that, in the song in question, it was not originally developed for that song, so if that makes it a good song, then my polaroid photo of a Salividor Dali painting should be worth a million bucks to someone.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Not directed at you in particular, I just really enjoy the way we talk about this kind of music in the same thread that we complain about how people don't understand the stuff we like either.  For every "Yo Diggity Dawg", there's an equal and opposite "is this some kind of Screamo?" comment going the opposite direction.



The "yo diggity dawg" thing is just how I used to describe the most simplistic main stream hip hop stuff to my friends and co-workers, that were into it. The kind that's not really good for much other than making girls dance. Not a general diss(pun intended) on hip hop/rap in general.

I'm a huge old school 80's - 90's gangster rap fanboy. I grew up to Eightball and MJG, Geto Boys, NWA, KRS One, E-40, Tupac, Spice 1. Guys with crazy mic skills and great beats and bass lines that destroy whatever's going on today in those genres.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

bostjan said:


> maybe you haven't found the right song to make an exception


I'm with you, but with the added caveat that said exception might not exist. And if it does exist, it doesn't negate my view of the rest of the genre. And there's no requirement that I search for that exception. It drives me nuts when someone insists that there's some requirement that I try harder to like what they like and just "haven't found the right examples yet". There is zero requirement. I have no motivation or desire to seek out examples that I like in genres I don't otherwise like.

Edit: I sort of see it as a fair trade - don't ask me to dig for things to like in your music, and I won't push what I like or be elitist about the things I don't like in your music. (The general "your", not you in particular.)


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

FILTHnFEAR said:


> just how I used to describe


I suppose the trick is that it's always difficult to pick out that context or intent conversationally. Someone might say "all that screaming stuff" as a simplification when speaking to someone who they know doesn't listen to metal, but someone overhearing it is going to hear two people "talking sh*t about a type of music they don't know anything about".


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 9, 2018)

bostjan said:


> No genre of music is complete shit, but there certainly are plenty of songs that are utter garbage. There are plenty of top 40 songs that have some value, usually by relate-able lyrics. Metal has plenty of garbage songs. I think you could argue that some artists' entire repertoires are worthless, but you never know, that same artist could come out with something actually good tomorrow...
> 
> If you don't like a particular genre, I think it's totally fair to say so, but, at the same time, maybe you haven't found the right song to make an exception, and that song may well exist.
> 
> But, that all said, anyone who ever said they liked a pop song "because it had a good beat" is being willfully ignorant. "Bump chump bump chump bump chump bump chump..." is a good beat, yes, but, 99.999...% chance that, in the song in question, it was not originally developed for that song, so if that makes it a good song, then my polaroid photo of a Salividor Dali painting should be worth a million bucks to someone.



It all starts with being able to say to yourself "I don't like this. Someone else does like it. Why do they like it? *WHAT ARE THEY HEARING THAT I AM NOT HEARING*"

You might still dislike it (Hello, most black metal), but you'll probably be able to pull something out of it that you do like (Hello, Varg Vikernes being such a caricature of evil and malice that he's practically a cartoon).

If you can't do that with hip hop, of all things, then it's really very simple - You're not fucking looking hard enough.

Check out Black Thought freestyle on Flex - 10 minutes of uninterrupted, unrehearsed impromptu rhythm and poetry, with punchlines, references, comedy, politics and personal exposition. You can't do that. Yngwie can't do that. None of your favourite bands can do that.

What about written verses? Well let's break one down - Eminem in "Remember Me?"


```
Sick sick dreams of picnic scenes, two kids, sixteen
With M-16's with ten clips each
And them shits reach through six kids each
And Slim gets blamed in Bill Clint's speech to fix these streets?
```

Break that down by rhyme scheme. He's literally carrying three independent half-rhymes through multiple lines at the same time, while simultaneously playing off of his "Slim Shady" persona *and* making an extended and multi-level columbine reference. - Two kids, six kids each, Clinton made reference to "violent influences" on children in his speech. 12 students died at columbine - Total death toll was 13 plus Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold but the 13th fatality was a faculty member, so the "Two Kids" are Harris and Klebold, the "six kids each" is the student bodycount.

All that in 35 words. His entire verse is 226 words long and is only 1/3rd of the song.

What about sheer wordplay?

Well here - this is Dan Bull's final segment in a Rap Roast he did of KSI on youtube. It's 34 anagrams of "The Nightmare" delivered in rhyme.



Spoiler



Cause I'm a master rap lyricist, while you just dabble
In disputing Bull, it's indisputable
I'll prove it using scrabble
HA
Imagine that in the ring
How mentally challenging
That would have been
I'm collecting anagrams of "The Nightmare"
Let me gather them in
Alright then me
Rah I'm the gent
Him, gent hater
The right name
The thin gamer
Meh, grin at the
Thane the grim
Reign hath met
Me threat nigh
Mr hating thee
He, me, that ring
Hear them ting
Rah, get him ent
That her minge
Ream the thing
He, might enter
The ring, am the
Hitter, hang em
Anger, hit them
Man get hither
Harm the gent
Near might the
Man here tight
Man he tighter
Than the grime
Genre that him
Rite hang them
High men treat
Him great then
Mean right then
Nth meagre hit
Harming teeth
Argh then emit
Methane right
'Neath the grim
Night heart me


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 9, 2018)

What I'm getting at here is that there's a whole lot of elitist "Well rappers just say whore and bitch and drop n bombs hurrr" bullshit in this thread coming from people who have absolutely no idea exactly how deep rap lyricism can be.

Sure, they don't have Yngwie. They don't *need* Yngwie, they have their own standards by which to measure skill and ability. And they do. Constantly. You wanna hear a hip hop Yngwie? Go listen to Twista and Busta Rhymes, two of the most famous speed rappers in Hip-Hop.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> You're not fucking looking hard enough.


I think there can be a sort of balance between admitting that, yes, we're not looking hard enough - but it's because we really don't want to, and that's ok. I can appreciate that someone who enjoys something I'm not might be hearing something that I don't hear - but I also expect that they're going in with different expectations and searching for something that I don't search for when I listen to a piece.

In particular, I find that I'm going to be partial to instrumental technique (in part because I'm a musician), but I also look for things like the build and release of tension, dynamics in volume, speed, etc., stuff that matter to some listeners and not to others. I don't really care what the lyrics to a song are most of the time (depending on the song). I recognize that someone who doesn't like what I like is probably judging music by a different set of requirements/values. If they prioritize lyrical prowess and relatable/dance-able rhythms over dynamic melodies, then of course they're going to like something different than I do. What they value as predictable and a great platform to deliver clever lines, I would find repetitive and flat. What I would find to be dynamic and technically impressive, they might find convoluted, wanky, maybe lacking in restraint for some of the heavier stuff.

The world gets a lot easier to navigate when you allow for the fact that people's valuation systems are different and that there's nothing wrong with that.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I think there can be a sort of balance between admitting that, yes, we're not looking hard enough - but it's because we really don't want to, and that's ok.



It's OK as long as you're not going to use your ignorance as a platform from which to assert things that are simply idiotic. If you want to go into a cave and ignore the world of hip hop entirely and not bother me or anyone else with that, then sure, that's fine.

But the moment you or anyone else reduces hip-hop to this:

```
Uh uh yeah uh uhn uhh yeah [sample/rendition] . 
Best played with 1500 watts at stop light. Tolerated.
```

That's the point at which ignorance is being used as a weapon, and that's not defensible. Sure, it's their opinion, but it's an ill-researched, weakly-made, idiotic opinion and simply does not have the same credibility as the opinion of someone who is actually informed about hip-hop culture.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> as long as you're not going to use your ignorance as a platform from which to assert things


I can agree with that. Realistically though, what we're talking about is just music taste. It really doesn't matter on any deeper level than that, in most contexts. I'm ok with someone justifying their distaste for a genre, at least in part, on very ignorant takes on the content of that corner of music, if it's not claiming to be coming from a knowledgeable place. When someone reduces a genre to some generalization like "it's all screeming" or "it's all just wub wub wub" or "uh uh yeh yeh *all the bass*, car shaking from subwoofer", the intention might not be as you suggest:


GuitarBizarre said:


> used as a weapon



I like to give people the benefit of the doubt I guess. I don't take people's generalizations maliciously. When it crosses the line into putting that music down more seriously (and we've arguably crossed that line in some ways in this thread a bunch of times), then yeah, that's just being a d*ck.


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## bostjan (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I'm with you, but with the added caveat that said exception might not exist. And if it does exist, it doesn't negate my view of the rest of the genre. And there's no requirement that I search for that exception. It drives me nuts when someone insists that there's some requirement that I try harder to like what they like and just "haven't found the right examples yet". There is zero requirement. I have no motivation or desire to seek out examples that I like in genres I don't otherwise like.
> 
> Edit: I sort of see it as a fair trade - don't ask me to dig for things to like in your music, and I won't push what I like or be elitist about the things I don't like in your music. (The general "your", not you in particular.)


I think that whether there is a requirement or not depends on context. If someone asks me if I like country music, and I say "no," then we aren't really anywhere near what I was talking about. If someone asks me if I like country music, and I say "country music is shit and I hate it because it all sounds the same," then I'm making generalized statements about the genre, but my opinion was solicited. On the other hand, if I go onto a country music forum or whatever and start posting "country music is shit and it all sounds the same," then I'm not only making my opinion clear, but, by merely showing up there out of the blue, I'm claiming some level of authority of my opinion, you know, so it'd be really unfair to do that if I hadn't
really made an effort to get into country music at all.

In this thread, it seems to be a mixture of people's opinions, but many of these are more along the lines of no-one-asked. So, if I randomly show up in this thread and say "Chinese Opera music is stupid," then people might rightly assume that I tried listening to it in some objective music-appreciation sort of sense, and didn't find anything to appreciate about it.

Then again, my earlier statement of "maybe you haven't found the right song to make an exception," might just be one of those "duh" type statements in it's obvious-ness.



GuitarBizarre said:


> It all starts with being able to say to yourself "I don't like this. Someone else does like it. Why do they like it? *WHAT ARE THEY HEARING THAT I AM NOT HEARING*"
> 
> You might still dislike it (Hello, most black metal), but you'll probably be able to pull something out of it that you do like (Hello, Varg Vikernes being such a caricature of evil and malice that he's practically a cartoon).
> 
> ...



Like I said, not all songs have equal value. Critically speaking, a rap of anagrams is a cool novelty, but, unless there's a something deeper to it, it doesn't make for a good song. It's equivalent, musically, to serialism. Anyone can make a song that employs the technique, but, like any technique, it's not about using it, it's about how you use it in context.

Then there's also song bloating. You could take every cool thing from every song and try to put it all into one song, get some Eminem rapping, some Tito Puente playing the conga drums, Paul Gilbert and Yngwie doing a shred battle, a Buddy Rich drum solo, Victor Wooten slapping the bass, MC Hammer dancing in parachute pants, Deadmau5 dropping the bass at some point, etc. etc., and it'd be the shittiest song ever...


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Critically speaking, a rap of anagrams is a cool novelty, but, unless there's a something deeper to it, it doesn't make for a good song. It's equivalent, musically, to serialism. Anyone can make a song that employs the technique, but, like any technique, it's not about using it, it's about how you use it in context.


I would argue, or possibly just extend your comment, to include the idea that a persons taste is what (in some cases) provides that context. The person who has the mindset that clever lyrics are what make a song good might think that it's actually the clever use of melody or some kind of instrumental technique that provides the novelty to a piece or genre that's otherwise carried by lyrical content - as opposed to the audience here who would more likely call the instrumental the core of the song.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 9, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Critically speaking, a rap of anagrams is a cool novelty, but, unless there's a something deeper to it, it doesn't make for a good song. It's equivalent, musically, to serialism. Anyone can make a song that employs the technique, but, like any technique, it's not about using it, it's about how you use it in context.



Firstly, do listen to the actual song. And any other Dan Bull material - He's an astonishingly gifted writer, not just a grammatically edgy, verbal Francesco Fareri.

Secondly, rap is unlike most other music in that when, say, a guitarist, is shredding inappropriately, he's being a dick and trying to compete where there is no competition. 

In rap and hip-hop, the space and the culture are tightly entwined with a competitive mindset. That's why stuff like this:


```
I can name 20 Brooklyn rappers more relevant than you
So stop fuckin’ with us, I go with Kane, B.I.G. and Jay, but that’s obvious
Buckshot, Tek and Steele, Rock and Ruck
Mos Def, Kweli, Masta Ace, Fabolous
Foxy, umm, Lil Kim and Cease
Skyzoo, Torae, oh Joell Ortiz
I’m with Joey BADA$$, ask AZ
M.O.P. would have told you you shouldn’t fuck with me
```

Actually does have that deeper meaning - this is a response track from Mad Skillz to Uncle Murda. The evident intent isn't just to say "I'm better than you and there are lots of people better than you" - It's also to back up the claim, and to do so in a way that is lyrically valid. The ability to string words together is being compounded in it's effect, by the fact the words beign strung together have a specific meaning and drive the point home - along with being lyrically gymnastic. 

The Dan Bull anagrams song is the same thing - He's throwing shade at someone who he knows can't compete with him lyrically, and doing it by pulling out a party trick he knows KSI could never imitate. 

There is actually a compositional and cultural point to these things, and that's a point that is often missed by people who aren't initiated in hip-hop culture - Sure, plenty of garbage rappers rap about how they're better than everyone else. 

But they're imitating classic battle rappers and oldschool diss tracks that had purpose. Even modern rap "beef" is the same basic premise - The culture invites competition, it's part of the spectacle. Quite literally part of the whole. 

And that's nothing new either - The four elements of hip-hop are DJing, Breaking, Graffiti, and the MC. It's always been a variegated art form that inherently mixes spectacle, competition, visual and sonic art, etc. 

In comparison, Metal dramatically under-serves it's fans in terms of actual content for them to digest. Metal beef is Mustaine and Lars being crotchety old men to each other. Nobody gives a fuck. In Hip Hop that same antagonism would be literally part of the artform.


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## bostjan (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I would argue, or possibly just extend your comment, to include the idea that a persons taste is what (in some cases) provides that context. The person who has the mindset that clever lyrics are what make a song good might think that it's actually the clever use of melody or some kind of instrumental technique that provides the novelty to a piece or genre that's otherwise carried by lyrical content - as opposed to the audience here who would more likely call the instrumental the core of the song.


I'd say that, objectively speaking, as much as music appreciation can be objective, all of those things can make a song better. Once a song is better "enough," it's a good song.
Clever use of lyrics, clever use of melody, clever use of experimentation, all make songs better, to a degree. Going back to the cooking analogy, a song with a nifty melody, clever lyrics, and something experimental to set it apart, is like a gourmet dish, where a rap where every line is an anagram of the first line, and there is no overall message in the song, is like a dish where the cook decided that people like tarragon herb, so it's just a bowl of steamed tarragon herb with a little chicken broth.

@GuitarBizarre no, I get it. It's a cool parlor trick. You aren't going to get me to say that that makes it a good song, though. Rap isn't better than rock, nor vice-versa. There are good songs and there are shitty songs in both genres. Being a flashy dick in a rap song isn't better than being a flashy dick in a rock song. There were just different times through history where those were culturally appropriate, but there is no fundamental difference. I'm guessing you missed the 80's somehow, or something, if you don't already know that to be the case. Anyway, in 2018, people don't really care about those really flashy rap verses that much. Most rappers in the past few years simply record a verse, then speed it up in post production to make it sound more skilled. That might be part of the reason why popular rappers of 2018 aren't as good as those of 2008. Rap is in decline along with the rest of the music industry now.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> In comparison, Metal dramatically under-serves it's fans in terms of actual content for them to digest. Metal beef is Mustaine and Lars being crotchety old men to each other. Nobody gives a fuck. In Hip Hop that same antagonism would be literally part of the artform.


It becomes an apples and chainsaws comparison at that point. Not even apples and oranges. This is why I don't like the idea of people saying they "like all music". Not all music takes the same form, or serves the same purpose. I personally don't have any interest in drama between artists, or don't feel let down by a lack of visual elements in most of what I listen to. In much the same way that I don't think a rap fan feels disappointed by a lack of blast beats, or gets bored if the artist falls into the same modes/keys/etc. Those things are not the point of the respective genre. They appeal to people differently because they're going in with the expectation of very different wants being satisfied.

Edit: To take it even farther -> I normally say that I don't like country music (which is true, I don't), but think about what a country song delivers: It's not about musicianship in the same sense, it's about delivering relatable stories in a way that's easily digestible and don't demand much from the audience. It's feel-good music. It's "I've been working all day, please don't ask anything more of me" music. Metal can't provide that to someone who doesn't want that abrasive/aggressive assault to the senses at the time.

I had another thought while reading the above:


GuitarBizarre said:


> from Mad Skillz to Uncle Murda


My gut reaction is that those names are ridiculous - but again, if I look at the stuff I listen to, it's just as ridiculous. It's just a different kind of ridiculous. It's not the ridiculousness that makes or breaks the content for me, so much as just the aesthetic values surrounding the ridiculousness don't match the vibe I look for in ridiculous music.


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## Avedas (Jul 9, 2018)

Metal needs diss tracks. High fantasy, space themes, and melancholic introspection is getting a little old.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

Good lord. A bunch of guitar nerds attempting to discuss the merits of rap and hip hop, in which they don't have a fucking clue about, makes me want to gouge my eyes out.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

Is there such a thing as introspective high-fantasy space rap? Maybe I'd give that a shot.


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## Xaios (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Is there such a thing as introspective high-fantasy space rap? Maybe I'd give that a shot.


Not yet to my knowledge, but I'm sure that someone could be convinced to make a hip-hop version of Ziltoid.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> A bunch of guitar nerds attempting to discuss the merits of rap and hip hop, in which they don't have a fucking clue about, makes me want to gouge my eyes out.


I'm kinda seeing something different though. The conversation has turned into a bunch of knowledge about what some people like about hip hop that I wouldn't have otherwise considered. I see a net positive so far.


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## FILTHnFEAR (Jul 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> Good lord. A bunch of guitar nerds attempting to discuss the merits of rap and hip hop, in which they don't have a fucking clue about, makes me want to gouge my eyes out.



Sounds more like you and this other guy are just pissy that other people just don't care for hip hop the way you do. These aren't some next level concepts you're talking about that are above our heads, I get what you're saying, and I'm sure others here do too. I'm not shitting on rap or people that are into it. There are rappers out there with talent, for sure, but it's not something I seek out to listen to because I honestly could care less about it as it does nothing for me.

And it's hilarious that you're getting shitty about it.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

i couldn't care less about what you people think about hip hop. i'm just bored and on the internet :]

but a lot of posts in this thread are incredibly eye roll inducing. it's a bunch of old dudes and metalheads spewing the same tired old rhetoric about rap and hip hop. most of you sound like my mom


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Is there such a thing as introspective high-fantasy space rap? Maybe I'd give that a shot.


dude, yes. you and me. let's do it


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> most of you sound like my mom


So you jump in and do the same thing? Quality of thread instantly improved, right?


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

hell yeah, ever since i showed up this thread has been hot fire


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 9, 2018)




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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

The906 said:


>



I BET YOU COULD SUCK A GOLF BALL THROUGH A GARDEN HOSE


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

It's really hard to get your head around how something that's literally a two-bar beat and a chorus that runs for 4 minutes can be enjoyable when you've been listening to tech-death for a decade. I can usually appreciate some aspects of most hip-hop/rap, but I get super, super bored when the verses aren't anything special, or its all at that slow trap pace or when there literally AREN'T verses and its just a hook and beat....that's not a song, no matter how many people like it.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> trap


I'm too lazy to google it, but I have no idea what trap music is. That word means nothing to me. You could substitute it for any other words and my understanding of the sentence can only improve.


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I'm too lazy to google it, but I have no idea what trap music is. That word means nothing to me. You could substitute it for any other words and my understanding of the sentence can only improve.


More or less its a style of EDM that is at a lower tempo and incorporates elements of dubstep with sparse arrangements and constant 808 kicks. Originally it was basically dubstep with some vocal samples, but now the "soundcloud" rappers use it as a backdrop for their lack of lyrical ability.


----------



## BIG ND SWEATY (Jul 9, 2018)

I'm all for people sowing rap some love around here but lets not pretend that the majority of people are listening to Busta Rhymes and Twista. Most people are going to listen to guys like Lil Pump and Trippie Redd who put out hype songs/party songs which is just fine, I love both of those guys because what they put out is pretty damn heavy in the beat department and its fun as hell to listen to. Not all rap/metal/EDM etc needs to be some lyrical masterpiece with super technical parts and everyone preforming at their peak ability, sometimes you just need a heavy beat and a catchy hook to get down to. Some rappers like XXXTentacion, Lil Ugly Mane, Ghostmane, $uicideboy$ and others are much closer to metal than some people would like to admit, I would encourage anyone thats not a fan of this new wave of rap to shut your brain off and listen to it, don't analyze it, don't try to break down the different sections or contemplate what the lyrics mean, be like Misha and just have fun with it.


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

If there's nothing intellectually stimulating about it I'm not gonna be bothered to even find out who it is. Might as well be elevator music. Yeah, its pleasant, but its also completely forgettable.


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## BIG ND SWEATY (Jul 9, 2018)

All of those rappers I just named have more than just heavy bangers other than Lil Pump and Trippie Redd, those guys are mainly just hype rappers.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

Thanks Gunpoint. I am learning all the things in this thread. Am I going to listen to any of it? Probably not. But I like that I know these things exist, and I'm glad that people are out there enjoying whatever they feel like.  Honestly, I've got lots of respect for people who are passionate about music at all, regardless of what it is, or what their reasons are.


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

That's the most important thing, that everyone finds something they like. A part of my brain feels like the dumber pop music gets the farther out into obscurity "good" music gets, but it seems society as a whole is getting dumber by the minute, so its just part of the nature of things.


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## bostjan (Jul 9, 2018)

My original hometown of Detroit had its own style of house/club music, called the "Jefferson Sound," which included acts like DJ Assault. The lyrical content of some of his songs were surprising in how incredibly stupid they were, and this guy was a huge local act:

For example, DJ Assault's biggest hit was a song called "Ass-N-Titties" with lyrics:



> Ass, titties, ass-n-titties
> Ass ass titties titties, ass-n-titties
> Ass, titties, ass-n-titties
> Ass ass titties titties, ass-n-titties
> ...


I'm not making this up.

So, when my friends would blast this on their stereo, which they would, being that it was a huge song, locally, I would just space out. I really couldn't parse the fact that such a song would become so successful with such vapid lyrics spoken in a quasi-monotone voice over one of the preset TR-808 rhythm patterns (with another preset rhythm used over the chorus of "ass ass ass ass ass ass..."). From a critical standpoint, there's nothing there to sink teeth into. It's like an eight year old wrote the song, thinking he was being ultra-edgy, but to an adult, I just can't see how anybody would hear this and think "Hot shit! I must drop everything and go buy this track immediately!!!!" So, here's how it worked - DJ Assault was a dude who went to the University to study marketing, and used what he learned to poise himself into a position where his songs (such as "Ho, Take off Your Clothes, Ho, Get Naked" - which was the same TR-808 preset rhythm as the aforementioned song, but with the lyrics changed to the song title, repeated ad nauseum) would get played in clubs around Detroit. He'd play these songs and have his pals play the same songs, such that, setting foot in a club in the Detroit area on any given day, hearing one of his tracks was a foregone conclusion. Once the locals heard these songs for the nth time (n being some number greater than ten), they started asking "who does that song?" And then - success.


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

Of course it took a marketing student to come up with "ass 'n titties" ... I still know people who jam that at parties, unfortunately.


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## TedEH (Jul 9, 2018)

Was such a nice sentiment, and then we added "it's because people are getting dumber" to the end.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

bostjan said:


> My original hometown of Detroit had its own style of house/club music, called the "Jefferson Sound," which included acts like DJ Assault. The lyrical content of some of his songs were surprising in how incredibly stupid they were, and this guy was a huge local act:
> 
> For example, DJ Assault's biggest hit was a song called "Ass-N-Titties" with lyrics:
> 
> ...


lmao. you can't criticize a song that is literally impervious to criticism. it's a dumb song meant for people to grind their genitals into each other's asses to. that's it


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## bostjan (Jul 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> lmao. you can't criticize a song that is literally impervious to criticism. it's a dumb song meant for people to grind their genitals into each other's asses to. that's it


Apply the same logic to literally any song.


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Was such a nice sentiment, and then we added "it's because people are getting dumber" to the end.


I don't feel it to be inaccurate.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

bostjan said:


> Apply the same logic to literally any song.


what logic is that?


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> what logic is that?


The "it's in its natural state, therefore it is impervious to criticism" logic. Death metal is impervious to criticism because it is written for people who like death metal.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

they day we start to even think about critically analyzing or applying any sort of logic to a song called "ass n titties" is the day the terrorists have won


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

I think the fact that it made its way off the ground enough to even considered for critical analysis means there really is no point to all of this.
Just have fun with it.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> Just have fun with it.


wise words

now, who's tryna grind their dick into my face to this?


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 9, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> wise words
> 
> now, who's tryna grind their dick into my face to this?




I tried, didn't make it through the intro.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jul 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> I tried, didn't make it through the intro.


The unplugged version is way better.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

GunpointMetal said:


> I tried, didn't make it through the intro.


not enough pinch harmonics?


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## bhakan (Jul 9, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Is there such a thing as introspective high-fantasy space rap? Maybe I'd give that a shot.


Yup - https://clppng.bandcamp.com/album/splendor-misery

I personally prefer their previous album, this album leans pretty heavily on minimalistic noisy beats that aren't always my thing. Story 2 isn't from the sci-fi album but might be a better introduction for us guitar nerds cause the time signature counts up every couple lines (3/4, 4/4, 5/4, 6/8, 7/8, 8/8, 12/8).


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## Avedas (Jul 9, 2018)

Man I'd probably off myself if the only things I could listen to were songs that were intellectually stimulating or difficult to play on the electric guitar.


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## toolsound (Jul 9, 2018)

I recall an interview with Chino from Deftones and they asked him something like, "What's your favorite metal album right now?" His response was something like, "I don't know. I'm basically listening to Justin Timberlake all the time right now."

I loved that response. I like me some JT occasionally too.


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## Vyn (Jul 9, 2018)

toolsound said:


> I recall an interview with Chino from Deftones and they asked him something like, "What's your favorite metal album right now?" His response was something like, "I don't know. I'm basically listening to Justin Timberlake all the time right now."
> 
> I loved that response. I like me some JT occasionally too.



On a slight tangent, it's important to detox yourself every now and then. I will sit down and listen to 8 hours of tech death or black metal at work but sometimes I throw on some K-Pop, the local radio station and whatever the pop song of the week is or even some gospel music. Helps two-fold: Increases your awareness and tolerance of other music out there and also if you're a musician you might find a lick/riff hook that you really dig that works in your taste of writing that you wouldn't have heard otherwise because you're listening to Braindrill on repeat.


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## eggy in a bready (Jul 9, 2018)

Futuresexlovesounds is a modern day classic. It'll probably go down as one of the all time greats


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 9, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> I've already explained everything I need to explain. Obviously you cannot effectively retort since you had to resort to personal insult at the bottom of your post.


Find the insult in my post. Please, by all means, go on. Find it. Look, I'll even quote my entire message for you to make it easier and more convenient.



Emperor Guillotine said:


> And you have no idea how the pop music side of the industry works and how labels pay all over (radio, internet, apps like Spotify, etc.) to push singles on the airwaves that execs want to use as both tastemaking and as marketing to drive the artist's sales.
> 
> Idiotic masses are persuaded by a pop tune (written and structured to an exact formula for an exact purpose) that is beat into their skull through mind-numbing repetition in cars, stores, internet, TV, etc. They'll eventually grow to like it and not even be able to give an explanation as to why. It's all part of the process.
> 
> The music business is a sales business. Who are you to try to impose your personal tastes (which not everyone shares, nor _has to_ share) by acting out as a poor means of antithetical, socially rebellious behavior just to make yourself feel special? ("Oh hey, everyone! I'm just going to ignore the circumstances of this room and selfishly play some metal that totally doesn't fit the situation and that I know you won't like. But eh, if you don't like it, fuck you!" *_proceeds to chug shitty, lower-tier beer_*)


Find it. Go on. Find the insult.



PunkBillCarson said:


> You chose to implement that and nothing else which suggests either a lack of will to try and understand where I was coming from and you just use what you want to suit your argument or you just simply refuse to try and understand any else's viewpoint that doesn't fit yours.


So, now you're pissy because I used your own exact words against you?



PunkBillCarson said:


> [...]do you feel better after all that?


Yeah, honestly, I feel great. How do you feel? Are you feeling butthurt?


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## budda (Jul 9, 2018)

Man, you guys need to get outside (in a place without music)


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## Herrick (Jul 9, 2018)

I don't have a social life so I don't go to parties and when I'm in a car I am the driver. However, through other means, I am subjected to music I absolutely detest. Yeah it sucks but I wouldn't give a friend an attitude because I don't like the music he's playing in *his own fucking car*. If it's that big a deal then avoid parties where you don't know who will be controlling the music. 

I'm with the posters in this thread who are basically saying just grow up


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## Xaios (Jul 9, 2018)

Herrick said:


> I don't have a social life so I don't go to parties and when I'm in a car I am the driver. However, through other means, I am subjected to music I absolutely detest. Yeah it sucks but I wouldn't give a friend an attitude because I don't like the music he's playing in *his own fucking car*. If it's that big a deal then avoid parties where you don't know who will be controlling the music.
> 
> I'm with the posters in this thread who are basically saying just grow up


All I can really say to this post is that you did an amazing job of re-framing my original post in your mind into something that doesn't resemble what I wrote at all.



Herrick said:


> Yeah it sucks but I wouldn't give a friend an attitude because I don't like the music he's playing in *his own fucking car*.


If an unconscious grimace constitutes "attitude," well then, guilty as charged.



Herrick said:


> If it's that big a deal then avoid parties where you don't know who will be controlling the music.


My post contains literally no mention of parties.



Herrick said:


> I'm with the posters in this thread who are basically saying just grow up


Wow, you should become a therapist. I'm sure all people looking for advice on self-actualization and dealing with problems _that they already recognize as being problems_ would just love coming to you.


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## Herrick (Jul 9, 2018)

Xaios said:


> All I can really say to this post is that you did an amazing job of re-framing my original post in your mind into something that doesn't resemble what I wrote at all.
> 
> My post contains literally no mention of parties.



The whole post wasn't directed at you.



Xaios said:


> If an unconscious grimace constitutes "attitude," well then, guilty as charged.



"Attitude" was the wrong way to describe your response then. That's my mistake. 



Xaios said:


> Wow, you should become a therapist. I'm sure all people looking for advice on self-actualization and dealing with problems _that they already recognize as being problems_ would just love coming to you.



Perhaps.


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## Bloody_Inferno (Jul 10, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Metal needs diss tracks.



Closest we have so far:


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## Bobro (Jul 10, 2018)

We asked my aunt Marushka, what was it like working in a factory during the worst days of Stalin? 

It was hell, she said. Loud popular music playing on loudspeakers all day long! 

Every time I go to a cafe or bar or the shopping mall, I remember this story and laugh. These days, people don't need some evil oppressor anally raping their minds 24/7- they do it voluntarily, to themselves.


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## wankerness (Jul 10, 2018)

With logic like that, you can't dislike anything cause something else in history was always worse!


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## Sogradde (Jul 10, 2018)

wankerness said:


> With logic like that, you can't dislike anything cause something else in history was always worse!


It helps to create a sense of perspective. I mean, it was only a couple of generations ago that music was only available to the upper class. The rest of the people were restricted to whistling a happy tune while washing the typhus-ridden clothes of their dying children.

Look, guys. I went through this whole music-snobbery-phase myself when I was in my teens/early twenties. I think everyone does at some point. The trick is to figure out that your taste is not as divine as you think and be a bit more humble. Different people like different things for different reasons and that's fine because for all I know, I wouldn't want to live in a world that's blasting Death Metal 24/7. After all music is about creating a response in you and something you don't care about might mean the world to someone else, no matter how stupid you find it.

I remember showing my friends songs that mean a lot to me for different reasons and I remember how gutted I was when all they said was "yeah, it's okay". But that's fine after all because we are individuals with an individual taste. Learn to not think of yourself so highly and try to find something nice in other genres every now and then to broaden your horizon.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 10, 2018)

Like you say, it comes down to a complete lack of perspective. 

You can name almost any genre, and I can look into that genre and find the appeal in it. When it comes to pop-country, lets be honest, "Jolene" is a great song. More traditional country? Well Willie Nelson is a great lyricist and so is Merle Haggard, Tommy Emmanuel is a supernaturally gifted guitar player with a beautiful ear for harmony and melody (Bella Soave, Morning Aire), Chet Atkins was a beautiful, emotional songwriter (Still Can't Say Goodbye). 

I've already spent a lot of time articulating the depth of Hip-Hop in this thread. 

It's really quite sad, if I can call it anything, to see people who are so determined to define themselves by their musical taste and the conviction they have of that taste, that they'll actively attempt not to enjoy these things. 

And I do mean that - There's such a resistance in people, especially metalheads, when it comes to making them admit that anything else is good. Get the fuck over that shit.


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## TedEH (Jul 10, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> people who are so determined to define themselves by their musical taste


I think it was mentioned already in this thread, and it's come up in other threads, but there's definitely a very strong sense of identity in people right now. I don't know if it's a new/modern thing, but people absolutely tie in whatever they can as a sort of definition of self. It's not "I am a person, but I also listen to metal". It's "I am a metalhead". The metalhead-ness is the defining property, not that you're just a person who happens to have a particular music taste. And it's not just music. Really into cars? You're a "car person". Took a bike to work today? "You are a cyclist". It's built into the language even - you don't say "I'm on a bike right now" very often, so much as you'd say "I am a cyclist". Even if you don't do it very often, you'll still blend it into your image of self, and describe yourself as such, despite not being in a context where it matters. "I'm a metalhead!" "Dude, you're in line at the drive through and no music is playing, your music tastes have nothing to do with your lunch".


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## GunpointMetal (Jul 10, 2018)

eggy in a bready said:


> not enough pinch harmonics?


Hahaha, no. Not enough music.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 10, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I think it was mentioned already in this thread, and it's come up in other threads, but there's definitely a very strong sense of identity in people right now. I don't know if it's a new/modern thing, but people absolutely tie in whatever they can as a sort of definition of self. It's not "I am a person, but I also listen to metal". It's "I am a metalhead". The metalhead-ness is the defining property, not that you're just a person who happens to have a particular music taste. And it's not just music. Really into cars? You're a "car person". Took a bike to work today? "You are a cyclist". It's built into the language even - you don't say "I'm on a bike right now" very often, so much as you'd say "I am a cyclist". Even if you don't do it very often, you'll still blend it into your image of self, and describe yourself as such, despite not being in a context where it matters. "I'm a metalhead!" "Dude, you're in line at the drive through and no music is playing, your music tastes have nothing to do with your lunch".



I'd like to point out people taking this too far is exactly why Babymetal are so fantastic - The only people who have a problem with them are exactly the people who take what you're describing to a degree beyond where it makes any sense, and it's absolutely hilarious to watch those people struggle and spit and froth at the idea that metal isn't just for them and their elite little club of uptight posers.


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## bostjan (Jul 10, 2018)

I don't care for Babymetal. I think that there are people who genuinely like them, but I also think that there is a significant proportion of Babymetal fans who primarily like them because of some fetish thing. They certainly have a right to exist, but I also have a right to point out the obvious, which is that many of their followers don't have a clue what the lyrics are about and would never listen to the band if it was fronted by three burly dudes.


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## wankerness (Jul 10, 2018)

Sogradde said:


> It helps to create a sense of perspective. I mean, it was only a couple of generations ago that music was only available to the upper class. The rest of the people were restricted to whistling a happy tune while washing the typhus-ridden clothes of their dying children.
> 
> Look, guys. I went through this whole music-snobbery-phase myself when I was in my teens/early twenties. I think everyone does at some point. The trick is to figure out that your taste is not as divine as you think and be a bit more humble. Different people like different things for different reasons and that's fine because for all I know, I wouldn't want to live in a world that's blasting Death Metal 24/7. After all music is about creating a response in you and something you don't care about might mean the world to someone else, no matter how stupid you find it.
> 
> I remember showing my friends songs that mean a lot to me for different reasons and I remember how gutted I was when all they said was "yeah, it's okay". But that's fine after all because we are individuals with an individual taste. Learn to not think of yourself so highly and try to find something nice in other genres every now and then to broaden your horizon.



I was reading this topic more as "how do I disguise my disgust when I hear music that I hate" as opposed to "how do I deal with people that are idiots for listening to music that I like." The former doesn't require the latter. And, it seems to me that your post only really applies to the latter. There are plenty of people I know who are smarter/better than me who listen to music I find inscrutably bad. 

Then again, there are plenty of posts that your post DOES apply to. There are a lot of pages of "Old man walks in to bar and walks out again Simpsons GIF" here.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 10, 2018)

bostjan said:


> I don't care for Babymetal. I think that there are people who genuinely like them, but I also think that there is a significant proportion of Babymetal fans who primarily like them because of some fetish thing. They certainly have a right to exist, but I also have a right to point out the obvious, which is that many of their followers don't have a clue what the lyrics are about and would never listen to the band if it was fronted by three burly dudes.


See, I like them because I'm perfectly OK with J and K-pop to start with, the band are good, and the music runs through a pretty wide selection of styles - They've done from almost rammstein-sounding metal (Headbanger), through Dio-esque pomp ("Ijime, Dame, Zettai"), and they've even done K-hop/Hip-hop breaks just to screw with people's expectations (Iine!).

It's all in good fun. You're right that on it's own I wouldn't rate them as "Greatest band ever" or anything, but I wouldn't say that about Someone Still Loves You Boris Yeltsin or Up Up Down Down Left Right Left Right B A Start either, and I like those bands just fine too. 

But, like I said above, a lot of why I fully enjoy Babymetal's existence is because of how *angry* they make a group of people who have no legitimate grievance except for the fact the band makes them feel less special and superior for being metalheads.

Even if half their value to me is in the fact they're trolling the crap out of these people just by existing, that's a hell of a lot of value-added, as far as I'm concerned, because those people are *awful*, and do more to kill the metal scene than they do to retain it's integrity.


----------



## TedEH (Jul 10, 2018)

GuitarBizarre said:


> The only people who have a problem with them are exactly the people who take what you're describing to a degree beyond where it makes any sense,


I don't know that I'd go that far. Bostjan already pointed out some reasons one might like that band beyond the music itself. I'm not a fan of Babymetal but not because of any wacky identity politics. I just don't enjoy it very much. The pop aesthetic doesn't appeal to me, the cutesy girly voices come across to me as grating, and the very obvious appeal to people who are attracted to idols or really into Japanese culture just isn't for me. And the whole "look! they're surprising us and subverting our expecations!" thing isn't really what I look for in music. I don't hate them, they have their place, but I'm not a fan.

I guess you could argue that my lack of being a fan is distinct from "having a problem with them". I have a problem with people who insist that if you don't like them, it must be because you are [insert undesirable quality].


----------



## GuitarBizarre (Jul 10, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I don't know that I'd go that far. Bostjan already pointed out some reasons one might like that band beyond the music itself. I'm not a fan of Babymetal but not because of any wacky identity politics. I just don't enjoy it very much. The pop aesthetic doesn't appeal to me, the cutesy girly voices come across to me as grating, and the very obvious appeal to people who are attracted to idols or really into Japanese culture just isn't for me. And the whole "look! they're surprising us and subverting our expecations!" thing isn't really what I look for in music. I don't hate them, they have their place, but I'm not a fan.
> 
> I guess you could argue that my lack of being a fan is distinct from "having a problem with them". I have a problem with people who insist that if you don't like them, it must be because you are [insert undesirable quality].


Which is why my distinction is between people who don't care for them (Fine), and people who legitimately try to argue they shouldn't exist. (Lol, get rekt)


----------



## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 10, 2018)

bostjan said:


> I don't care for Babymetal. I think that there are people who genuinely like them, but I also think that there is a significant proportion of Babymetal fans who primarily like them because of some fetish thing. They certainly have a right to exist, but I also have a right to point out the obvious, which is that many of their followers don't have a clue what the lyrics are about and would never listen to the band if it was fronted by three burly dudes.


I fall into the category of those who genuinely like Babymetal. Honestly, I love Takayoshi and BOH of the band. Big influences on me as a player for both guitar and bass. Aside from that, all of the other recent members of the Kami Band such as Leda Cygnus, Fujioka Mikio (R.I.P.), Isao Fujita, Aoyama Hideki, Shuki Maeta, and Yuya Maeta are all absolutely PHENOMENAL players and composers on their respective instruments.

With that said, people love them for different reasons. I love them for the killer musicianships and instrumentation. Others might love them because: "Hey! This band is doing something different!" And even more so, others (such as your stereotypical weeb/otaku subculture members) might love them just because they fall into this J-Pop category. 

You are also correct in that there are people who love Babymetal out of some sort of fetish. That is just part of the "idol" girl-group music territory. That kind of behavior is common over in Japan. Full-grown men will spend so much time and money collecting every little CD or piece of merch that a girl-group puts out, going to shows, being a dedicated supporter, etc. However, now that Babymetal is a worldwide sensation, you're seeing that same sort of behavior (sort of fetish-y) coming from fans all over the world in various countries and not just in Japan.



GuitarBizarre said:


> See, I like them because I'm perfectly OK with J and K-pop to start with, the band are good, and the music runs through a pretty wide selection of styles - They've done from almost Rammstein-sounding metal (Headbanger), through Dio-esque pomp ("Ijime, Dame, Zettai"), and they've even done K-hop/Hip-hop breaks just to screw with people's expectations (Iine!).
> 
> [...]
> 
> ...


This right here. This needed to be said. Excellent point, Guitarbizarre. I've thought the same thing at times in regards to enjoying Babymetal simply because they "anger" a certain faction of idiotic, close-minded people for no reason whatsoever.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 10, 2018)

Apparently, my post a few pages back riled young William's feathers to such an extent that he felt the need to randomly message me just to continue his "I-need-to-validate-my-stance-and-assert-that-I-am-correct-and-you-are-wrong" bitchfest.


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## Avedas (Jul 10, 2018)

Idol culture and its fans are the worst part of this entire country. I was at a festival where one of the stages was completely dedicated to idol garbage and the dudes were completely insufferable. At least Babymetal is good. They'd sound better if they dropped the other two vocalists who aren't Suzuka though.


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## mongey (Jul 10, 2018)

baby metal def occupy a weird space in metal scene. I had a mate tell me the music is brutal and i didn't like them just cause of the Japanese chick singing in a baby voice and I was like fuck yeah, that's one reason .

to many of the fans its like a badge of honor that you're are super brutal cause you like them. its weird 

but power to em. people are digging it


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 11, 2018)

mongey said:


> to many of the fans its like a badge of honor that you're are super brutal cause you like them. its weird



That's just how people are, especially when they lack a wider context for what metal is or how the world works. Everyone I knew that listened to rock when I was at school in the early 00's was exactly the same way with whatever band they were into, usually Metallica or Slayer. I was the odd one out in that group because I was a colossal (And extremely naive/blinded) Megadeth fan.

You're right it's super weird, but that only really illustrates the point I was making earlier about people for whom metal is a way to pose and preen about how tr00 or btr00tz they are.


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## TedEH (Jul 11, 2018)

mongey said:


> to many of the fans its like a badge of honor that you're are super brutal cause you like them. its weird


I realized a while back that the people around me seem to perceive me in vastly different ways because they come from very different frames of reference- my metal-listening friends think of me as the least metal person ever (I wear colours sometimes! I listen to acoustic and jazz and folk and 90s rock and classical! I like musicals and operas! I don't smoke weed! I don't swear at everyone for no reason!), but then I go home or to work and I become the exact opposite - the most metal/brutal/out there person they can think of because they don't have any other frame of reference (He's in metal bands! He wears black pretty often! He's very independent! He listens to aggressive tunes! There's screaming for some reason! What's a blast beat?! Why are there severed pig heads on the stage?!?!).


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## wankerness (Jul 11, 2018)

I've never heard of Babymetal before, but now I'm intrigued. I'll have to blast this when I get home.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 11, 2018)

wankerness said:


> I've never heard of Babymetal before, but now I'm intrigued. I'll have to blast this when I get home.



Get ready to be disappointed. 

They're equal parts annoying and underwhelming. 

Which is too bad, because it's an interesting concept.


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## TedEH (Jul 11, 2018)

Unless you're into that kind of thing, which lots of people seem to be.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 11, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> Apparently, my post a few pages back riled young William's feathers to such an extent that he felt the need to randomly message me just to continue his "I-need-to-validate-my-stance-and-assert-that-I-am-correct-and-you-are-wrong" bitchfest.



This just makes you look like an ass. He was the civil one actually. 

Not to mention, unless there is some shady shit going on its pretty poor form to post PMs. It's not an official forum rule, but do it like this again and things will be handled administratively.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 11, 2018)

TedEH said:


> Unless you're into that kind of thing, which lots of people seem to be.



I just don't get it.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jul 11, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I just don't get it.



Most people so far in this thread have been very good at not getting things, lets be honest.


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## wankerness (Jul 11, 2018)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Get ready to be disappointed.
> 
> They're equal parts annoying and underwhelming.
> 
> Which is too bad, because it's an interesting concept.



I...kind of liked it. Based on the one song I listened to (Karate). I mean, I'm probably not going to go out and listen to the rest of their album. But, it was no worse than the cookiecutter bands that play those kinds of riffs in the US, and the J-pop vocal thing with the harmonies at least gave it some character, unlike 99% of these kinds of bands. Well, maybe I shouldn't say character, cause I've heard plenty of J/K-pop and this sure isn't anything special vocally compared to any of those clowns, but at least it's a new mash-up to me. And I'd sure rather listen to these chicks than LOL GUYS I COVERED KATY PERRY DJENT STYLE LOL and whatever else I usually get when it comes to pop +modern metal riffs.

Destiny Potato >>>>> Babymetal > any of them with a guy singing

Youtube then autoplayed Wretched Weaponry (Dynamic) and I promptly disregarded babymetal. Now THAT is some female vocal harmony over tough guy music that is unambiguously awesome.


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## wat (Jul 11, 2018)

I enjoy the shit out of babymetal, I listen to them all the time at the gym. I like the weirdness of the heaviness mixed with the cuteness & those choruses are catchy as fuck. But half the music i listen to these days is Japanese or Korean anyway so it's not much of a stretch to me.

I also love how triggered the trve kvlt people get at mention of their name


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## Vyn (Jul 11, 2018)

Another shameless Baby Metal fan here. It is cookie-cutter. It's over produced. It was made by the idol industry. It in theory offends most of my music sensibilities. But it's catchy as fuck and easy to listen to. I've bought a few of their t-shirts xD


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## Avedas (Jul 11, 2018)

Thanks to Babymetal we have to coolest signature Strandberg available too.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 12, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Thanks to Babymetal we have to coolest signature Strandberg available too.


The Leda Cygnus signature model is literally nothing cool nor special. It's just an overpriced, basic Strandberg.


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## Avedas (Jul 12, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> The Leda Cygnus signature model is literally nothing cool nor special. It's just an overpriced, basic Strandberg.


Have you looked at the spec sheet? Pretty much nothing on there is available outside M2M or the Swedish custom shop, both of which are now dead in the water. It is an especially expensive Boden J model and I do think it's overpriced, but it's quite different as far as Strandbergs go.


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 12, 2018)

Avedas said:


> Have you looked at the spec sheet? Pretty much nothing on there is available outside M2M or the Swedish custom shop, both of which are now dead in the water. It is an especially expensive Boden J model and I do think it's overpriced, but it's quite different as far as Strandbergs go.


You can get those exact specs on a J-Boden. In fact, J-Bodens with those exact specs (minus the Aftermaths and purpleheart stringers) have been offered in the past. I've seen plenty with white finish, unimpressive burl top, rosewood necks, ash bodies, etc. It is just an extremely overpriced, basic J-Boden with nothing special about it. And now, the guitars can't be exported out of Japan due to CITES and many dealers just flat-out refusing to deal with the extra hassle.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 12, 2018)

Hmm... Never heard Babymetal before. Might give them a shot.


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## Avedas (Jul 12, 2018)

Emperor Guillotine said:


> You can get those exact specs on a J-Boden. In fact, J-Bodens with those exact specs (minus the Aftermaths and purpleheart stringers) have been offered in the past. I've seen plenty with white finish, unimpressive burl top, rosewood necks, ash bodies, etc. It is just an extremely overpriced, basic J-Boden with nothing special about it. And now, the guitars can't be exported out of Japan due to CITES and many dealers just flat-out refusing to deal with the extra hassle.


You can't get those specs, no. The neck and fretboard shapes are otherwise unavailable. They have never offered Japanese ash before. But yeah, the specs are not really a huge upgrade worthy of the price jump. The tops look very nice in person though; every picture online seems to be overly washed out or edited. And it's certainly more interesting than every other signature they've put out, which was my original point.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 12, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> Hmm... Never heard Babymetal before. Might give them a shot.


You should stay the course and see how long you can go without listening to it...like I’ve done with Periphery


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## TedEH (Jul 12, 2018)

I'm enjoying how this thread went from "lets try to be cooler about other people's taste!" to "hey, you know that thing some people like? It's the worst."


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## wankerness (Jul 12, 2018)

TedEH said:


> I'm enjoying how this thread went from "lets try to be cooler about other people's taste!" to "hey, you know that thing some people like? It's the worst."



Well, to be fair, it started as "other people's taste is awful, is it possible to be less of an ass about it?", so now it's just people saying "no it is not!!"


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## Emperor Guillotine (Jul 12, 2018)

Avedas said:


> And it's certainly more interesting than every other signature they've put out, which was my original point.


Backed.



NateFalcon said:


> You should stay the course and see how long you can go without listening to it...like I’ve done with Periphery


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## Xaios (Jul 12, 2018)

wankerness said:


> Well, to be fair, *it started as "other people's taste is awful, is it possible to be less of an ass about it?"*, so now it's just people saying "no it is not!!"


No, no it did not. It started with me admitting that I'm an elitist asshole and asking for help trying to change.


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## wankerness (Jul 12, 2018)

Xaios said:


> No, no it did not. It started with me admitting that I'm an elitist asshole and asking for help trying to change.


Hey, I think that's milder wording of the same thing. You said you unfortunately believe that his music (Staind, as the example) was awful, and that you were an ass by recoiling in disgust, and that you wanted help to change. I guess the "IS IT POSSIBLE" was the part I had wrong. But, others are clearly answering that for themselves it would not be. 

Either way, I think you need to listen to a non-stop feed of music you think is bad until you can listen to it without flinching. It's similar to the classic drinking game Russian Roulette, in which there's a ring of shots around the table with one being bad vodka, and to "win" you have to be good at drinking it without conveying the slightest impression that it wasn't water.

Speaking of bad music, I just was hanging out in another office and heard several songs in a row that were being played very loudly - KC and Jojo - All My Life, Backstreet's Back Alright, If You Could Only See the Way She Loved Me, and Natalie Imbruglia's version of Torn (OK, that one is actually great) are the ones I can remember offhand. I smiled through the whole thing and said "this is some great 90s stuff!!" I'm good at this.


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## Xaios (Jul 12, 2018)

wankerness said:


> You said you unfortunately believe that his music (Staind, as the example) was awful, and that you were an ass by recoiling in disgust, and that you wanted help to change.


Apparently this is the part that I'm failing to convey. I'm saying that I don't like it, not that it's bad. In fact I've purposely avoided making value statements about music that I don't enjoy in this entire thread, because at least in my view, there is a world of difference between "I don't like it," and "it's bad." I've also been very clear that the contempt I've developed is a problem stemming from my own personality faults.

The thing is, I know that, on an intellectual level, just because I don't like something doesn't mean it's not good. Unfortunately, when it comes to music, my id tends to manifest before the rest of my brain can reign it in.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jul 12, 2018)

So I listened to a bit of Babymetal last night and... Here's my take: I like the riffs, I like the vocals, I just don't think the two really mesh all that well.


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## MaxOfMetal (Jul 12, 2018)

PunkBillCarson said:


> So I listened to a bit of Babymetal last night and... Here's my take: I like the riffs, I like the vocals, I just don't think the two really mesh all that well.



Yeah, that's how I feel about it too. 

No part is bad, I just don't think it _works_. Ya know?


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## Mathemagician (Jul 12, 2018)

Xaios said:


> No, no it did not. It started with me admitting that I'm an elitist asshole and asking for help trying to change.



So change. It’s not hard, just DON’T behave like an overly opinionated 14 year old high school boy.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 12, 2018)

Xaios said:


> No, no it did not. It started with me admitting that I'm an elitist asshole and asking for help trying to change.


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## NateFalcon (Jul 12, 2018)

Listen to whatever...it’s just music. No matter how bad it is, it usually only lasts a few minutes (there are exceptions lol). Bar jukeboxes are the worst...so instead of boo-hooing about it I made my own connoisseur crap collection of music. Throw on NOFX “the decline” and aggravate average folk for 45 minutes straight with ONE song, it’s the best $1.00 I could ever spend...how about some “warm leatherettes”? You know you’re doing good when bar patrons complain to get your music shut off...if I gotta listen to Bruno Mars and Cardi B without complaining then everyone else should be able to put up with some Ed Gein...no?


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## TedEH (Jul 12, 2018)

So often I hear in my head that Hevy Devy line where he goes "It's just entertainment folks!"


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## wankerness (Jan 10, 2019)

Necrobump. I saw babymetal’s London Blu-ray on sale, and it reminded me of this thread and the babymetal discussion, so I had to get it and fully check it out. This is kind of awesome. I’m most shocked by how good the band members are. Like, there have already been a couple really great bass wank solos. I’ve never heard this level of heaviness or skill with a Japanese rock/metal band before, and when combined with the teen girls dancing around and the hilarious stuff like the opening crawl, it really put me in a great mood.

They could probably be really good if they ditched the two backup singers, though they’re a big part of why this is so fun to watch, it’s so damn silly. The main one seems to be clearly much more talented. Plus she looks less creepily young, even though google sugges they’re all 15 or 16 here. That kind of makes it funnier I suppose.

I am now officially a fals-metuhl weeb.


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## broj15 (Jan 10, 2019)

Idk, maybe it's because I worked at a record store for such a long time, and thus was exposed to TONS of music, some of which I would've immediately wrote off had it not been part of my job to hear it, but I feel like I can always find SOME merit to almost any kind of music. 

Like take pop music for example. It's not designed with technical prowess or "artistic integrity" in mind. It's made to be ear candy and get stuck in people's heads, and thus move units. Or in this day n age I guess it's more about listeners on streaming services than actually selling physical units, but it's all the same thing. Just take a look at a flash in the pan/one hit wonder artist vs. someone who was able to make a career out of it. What's the difference between the two? On the surface not much, but if you start to dig deeper and analyze the music and the image the artist & thier PR team have crafted then I feel like you'll see that there's actually alot of work that goes into the whole package of a pop musician. 

Idk if that makes much sense to anyone else, but I guess what I'm saying is is that it is some kind of "art" to be able to write a song that will be enjoyed by such a large audience.


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## Veldar (Jan 11, 2019)

I'm a gigging musician and I have to listen to a lot of music that I otherwise wouldn't choose to.

My moto is all music is bad. That's what I tell myself and other when they ask how I deal with it.

You can find faults with anything, and it's all subjective. but you can also find something good in every song.


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## possumkiller (Jan 11, 2019)

Nobody tolerates my music so I don't tolerate theirs.


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## wankerness (Jan 11, 2019)

Veldar said:


> you can also find something good in every song.


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## Smoked Porter (Jan 11, 2019)

wankerness said:


>


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## Kaura (Jan 11, 2019)

wankerness said:


>




Proggier than half the bands that claim to be prog these days.


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## Konfyouzd (Jan 11, 2019)

I seem to have a problem that's on the opposite end of the spectrum but also altogether different from your problem.

I often just invent what I want to see in something. So if it doesn't immediately appeal to me, I look at it other ways to see what I actually DO like about it and in many cases, those that showed me the media in question feel I've missed the point.

To me, the only point was to open my mind. If I find something I like in it--even if it's not what you intended--mission accomplished.


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## GatherTheArsenal (Jan 11, 2019)

Echoing the approach of trying to find something appealing to like in other music genres.

I'm the only metalhead amongst my friends, have been for the last 20 years so I've had my fair share of moments where my eyes were in constant roll mode. Also, for a good length of time they all wanted to go clubbing on their birthdays... every year.....that was...... educational. 

But I found that if I try to appreciate how well produced the music is, then it gives me an "in" so to speak to find a way to tolerate it. Taking the music for what it is, rather than what I want it to be, made it much easier too.

It sounds like you're getting enough exposure to other genres so I can't say that's the issue. But have you thought about how you're approaching other genres when you're listening to them? Just having a general attitude of acceptance helps, it's all about how you approach it.


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## TedEH (Jan 11, 2019)

There are definitely songs over which I would prefer that Foot Foot tune.


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## Xaios (Jan 11, 2019)

wankerness said:


> babymetal’s


Not for me, truthfully, but I honestly support what they do for the simple fact that it pisses the fuck out of trver than thov metalheads. I may have my own difficulties enjoying music outside of my "sphere" for lack of a better term, but I'll take music that I don't find compelling over the indignant, self-righteous "this music doesn't burn churches, rape children and murder minorities by strangling them with their own entrails and is therefore false in the eyes of great Odin" braying of whatever the metal equivalent of racial purists are called.


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## wankerness (Jan 12, 2019)

TedEH said:


> There are definitely songs over which I would prefer that Foot Foot tune.



Frank Zappa said that band was better than the Beatles. Their album certainly was...more original. Since it was produced in a near-complete vacuum (they were handed instruments and told to record a rock album without ever having heard rock music, or really any music, hence the total lack of time signature). I'm still waiting for Veldar to say something good about it.


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## andyjanson (Jan 12, 2019)

I kinda used to feel the same way when I was younger until I realised that I wasn't winning any prizes for not liking something. No-one else really cares what music you listen to, and no-one thinks you're any cooler for dismissing artists that prioritize things other than musicianship and technicality. All you're doing is denying yourself a potential source of pleasure, and I've found since opening my mind up to other genres that I'm far happier and less cynical because I feel like I'm allowed to enjoy a really good pop song if I hear one rather than telling myself it's inherently bad and that I dislike it based on a pretentious set of principles that are of no real value.

Metal/Prog/whatever is no better than any other style of music. In the end, it's all just arrangements of the same 12 notes and if you like how it sounds, it's good.


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## fps (Jan 12, 2019)

It's really easy. Remember that ultimately, they're sounds going in people's ears. How can you judge someone for liking one set of sounds and not another set of sounds?

Ultimately, the music is just that, it's not image, it's not public persona, it's not instruments played, for nearly everyone, it's liking the sounds that are going into ears. Separate that from everything else around music and it may be a bit easier to understand that others' taste in music is just as valid as yours.

There are things to enjoy, admire and learn from in all forms of music.


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## Veldar (Jan 12, 2019)

wankerness said:


>




First time through I was think how cool that song is, seriously I would jam that.

Here are some reason it's a good tune:
- Some of those beats get super close to the J dilla thing, guys like Questlove and Flying lotus popularised it within the last 10 years, that super out of time kick sound. It's 'hip' with 'cats' man
- Those guitar lines are rather interesting in rhythm regarding the movement between the mono lines and chords
- Vocals have a haunting presence to them, as if there wasn't a lot of emotion in them on purpose to create a sense of melancholy
- Drum tone is kinda cool
- The frantic drumming reminds me of math rock bands like Don cab, where the drummer is essentially soloing and then coming back in with the band every so often

You know people love the Captain Beefheart album and cited it as a groundbreaking/influential album, but it shares a lot in common with The Shaggs

TLDR: I can see why Frank Zappa loved them, works great as a palate cleanser and is truly avent garde by modern standards.


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## Crundles (Jan 12, 2019)

Ultimately it's simple - if I wasn't tolerant of other people's music tastes, I never would've been shown League of Legends' K-Pop video, and what a sad and miserable life would I have led then?



Every genre has some incredible songs, even pop. Especially pop, due to the sheer volume of things being made, really. You can't tell me you dislike Marina and the Diamonds regardless of what hell-blackened neuro-death you normally listen to. It's just a matter of politely nodding at people showing you Nicki Minaj until you hit on the good stuff.

Like, I'm in the IT sphere, and work with 20-30 year olds fresh out of, or still in, university, and if they can listen to even half of Evisceration Plague, I owe it to them to at least try whatever mumble rap they're throwing at me.


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## wankerness (Jan 12, 2019)

Veldar said:


> First time through I was think how cool that song is, seriously I would jam that.
> 
> Here are some reason it's a good tune:
> - Some of those beats get super close to the J dilla thing, guys like Questlove and Flying lotus popularised it within the last 10 years, that super out of time kick sound. It's 'hip' with 'cats' man
> ...



Alright, this post is fantastic. You win the internet today.

RE: dude above, Marina and the Diamonds is a weird example to use afor pop as she’s like, an actual musician that writes some interesting stuff. She’s along the lines of Florence and the Machine more than Britney Spears. If you’re going to talk pop that traditionally gets trashed, I’d use an example of some manufactured bimbo/himbo! But, I guess maybe that was sorta your point, that legit musicians are in almost every genre.


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## TedEH (Jan 12, 2019)

Yesterday I got caught in a scenario where I had no choice but do be enveloped (for lack of a better word) in a bunch of hip-hip, rap, some kind of pop stuff, etc. stuff being played loudly over a PA.... aaaaaand I think I've had my fill of that music for the next while. I feel no obligation to try to force myself to like something that I just plainly don't enjoy, as long as nobody is going around grouching that everyone else has the "wrong" taste in music.
I mean... some of the junk I listen to is just blast beats and gurgly noises, sooooooooo.......
Lots of music is garbage. I just prefer to listen to certain kinds of garbage. To each their own garbage.


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## TedEH (Jan 12, 2019)

OH NO.
I just discovered the reversed version of Foot Foot.


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## Seabeast2000 (Jan 12, 2019)

TedEH said:


> OH NO.
> I just discovered the reversed version of Foot Foot.



Toof toof laP Ym opens portals no man can fathom.


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## KailM (Jan 13, 2019)

What rubs me the wrong way is people telling me I need to be more "open minded" with my music preferences. I like what I like, and it moves me/affects me emotionally/is an escape. I downright HATE certain genres of music. I just happen to thrive on blast beats and vocals that sound like the singer has been gargling razor blades.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jan 14, 2019)

KailM said:


> What rubs me the wrong way is people telling me I need to be more "open minded" with my music preferences. I like what I like, and it moves me/affects me emotionally/is an escape. I downright HATE certain genres of music. I just happen to thrive on blast beats and vocals that sound like the singer has been gargling razor blades.



Which is ironic given that you've got to have a pretty fucking open mind to enjoy black metal.


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## p0ke (Jan 14, 2019)

KailM said:


> What rubs me the wrong way is people telling me I need to be more "open minded" with my music preferences. I like what I like, and it moves me/affects me emotionally/is an escape. I downright HATE certain genres of music. I just happen to thrive on blast beats and vocals that sound like the singer has been gargling razor blades.



I don't think I've ever been told that. What I have been told though, is that "I don't understand how you don't like this band/artist". I've also been told that I listen to music only as a technical product, with complete disregard to emotion, again, because I didn't like a certain band/artist/vocal style of a band/artist.

I mean, I'm fine with people not liking what I listen to, but no-one's got a right to tell me what I should or shouldn't like. I also don't generally complain about the music playing anywhere, unless it's something I've heard too many times. For example I tolerate my wife's music, but she doesn't tolerate mine  Sometimes she really properly tries, but she can't take it very long. Yet she still expects me to tolerate what she's listening to indefinitely. If she wasn't my wife, I'd tell her to fuck off straight away.  Anyway, the reason she listens to what she listens to, is because she always thinks about dancing when there's music on - and sure, you can't really dance to metal (moshing or headbanging doesn't count). So yeah, I just act as if no music is playing if she's listening to something, and I generally just listen to my stuff at work (I'm a software developer so I get to listen to whatever I want almost all the time).


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## Cynicanal (Jan 15, 2019)

I've only read the first half of this thread, but if you're going to parties where you can't drop on some AC/DC, Alice Cooper, Judas Priest, or Danzig, then you need to go to different parties.


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## duffbeer33 (Jan 16, 2019)

Interesting thread and I can appreciate a lot of the points made here. I've been into metal since high school, but I've actually never felt compelled to shove my music down other people's throats. Let's face it, when I went to parties in college or local bars, etc, metal was not the popular choice of music. As much as I'd love to put lamb of god on the radio, I know that people would either leave the party or feel uncomfortable and turn it off. I also don't turn on Meshuggah when I'm giving a coworker a ride in my car, etc, because people tend to feel uncomfortable around super heavy music. It's an unfortunate fact of listening to music that many people consider "harsh." I do have a core group of friends that all love metal like I do, and have gone to many concerts over the years, meeting great people. Anyway the point is, being tolerant of other people's music doesn't just mean not judging theirs, it also means not forcing your musical tastes on other people -- you have to know your audience.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 16, 2019)

duffbeer33 said:


> I also don't turn on Meshuggah when I'm giving a coworker a ride in my car, etc, ......
> ....it also means not forcing your musical tastes on other people -- you have to know your audience.


If you're in my car and you complain about the music, there's usually a bus stop nearby.


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## Xaios (Jan 16, 2019)

Cynicanal said:


> if you're going to parties where you can't drop on some AC/DC, Alice Cooper, Judas Priest, or Danzig, then you need to go to different parties.


You're assuming I go to parties. How cool do you actually think I am? 

For the record, I don't make a habit of forcing other people to endure my musical preferences, as a courtesy. I can tell you quite plainly that courtesy is not reciprocated. And I get it, I'm in the minority, I don't expect it to be. It'd be nice, though, for people who preach open-mindedness to other people who don't enjoy more popular music to be able to walk that walk as well. I've never expected them to though, so when my turn comes up to put on some music, I'll put on something that's still generally relatively easy listening like late-period Sieges Even or Porcupine Tree. No one dislikes Porcupine Tree. Maybe even some Pain of Salvation, if I'm feeling daring, OOOOOOHHH *waves hands*.


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## TedEH (Jan 16, 2019)

Xaios said:


> And I get it, I'm in the minority


I don't think anyone ever believes me when I say this, and I wish I had a proper way to measure it, but I don't think there really is a majority anymore. The selection is so vast now, and tastes so varied, that I would assume even the largest fan-bases are small groups in the sea of all music listeners. Outside of how people's music tastes are likely to relate in some ways to their friends tastes, at any random party I assume that more people dislike the music being played than like it, or in an arbitrary group of people, a workplace, etc., very few people will really share much of their music tastes. 

I'm lucky to work with people who do like some of the same music I do, but even within that group, it's a relatively small overlap in terms of subgenres preferred, etc.


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## Solodini (Jan 17, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I don't think anyone ever believes me when I say this, and I wish I had a proper way to measure it, but I don't think there really is a majority anymore. The selection is so vast now, and tastes so varied, that I would assume even the largest fan-bases are small groups in the sea of all music listeners. Outside of how people's music tastes are likely to relate in some ways to their friends tastes, at any random party I assume that more people dislike the music being played than like it, or in an arbitrary group of people, a workplace, etc., very few people will really share much of their music tastes.
> 
> I'm lucky to work with people who do like some of the same music I do, but even within that group, it's a relatively small overlap in terms of subgenres preferred, etc.



Everyone likes Stevie Wonder. I refuse to believe in the existence of people who dislike Stevie Wonder's music.


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## duffbeer33 (Jan 17, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> If you're in my car and you complain about the music, there's usually a bus stop nearby.



I get the whole pride thing, but cranking metal and then kicking a coworker/client/manager out of my car if they don't like it seems a little extreme


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

duffbeer33 said:


> I get the whole pride thing, but cranking metal and then kicking a coworker/client/manager out of my car if they don't like it seems a little extreme


I'm not gonna get in someone else's ride and tell them to change the music. If you need my transportation services, you can deal with some blast beats and gutterals.


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## Jonathan20022 (Jan 17, 2019)

You're entirely missing the point, it's like inviting someone over for dinner with you and then subsequently showing violent gore on a large television in front of the dinner table. Yes, they could ignore something that makes them uncomfortable and enjoy dinner, but as a host there's a little thing called awareness and being considerate. 

When I drive co-workers or friends who don't like metal, I simply play something different and enjoyable that I think isn't jarring for them. Or better yet, because it's a short car drive and not the end of the world, give them the option of putting music they like on.

Duff isn't talking about someone coming into your car and abrasively changing your music without permission, if someone does that they can walk. He's talking about *pre-emptively *being considerate and accommodating since there is quite a large group of people who dislike metal.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

Jonathan20022 said:


> He's talking about *pre-emptively *being considerate and accommodating since there is quite a large group of people who dislike metal.


 I'm already being considerate in offering a ride, lol. My radio, my tunes.


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## lurè (Jan 17, 2019)

When someone in my car doesn't like metal I usually lower the volume of the music down so you can have a conversation.

If your passenger is tolerant enough, he will focus on speaking to you rather than dealing with your musical tastes.


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## Masoo2 (Jan 17, 2019)

If you aren't willing to change the music from your extremely niche music that to most is considered overly abrasive, disgusting, and in general "not musical/enjoyable," you're the one with the problem

If you dismiss others for not enjoying metal or having a differering tastes, you're also a problem

Metal is overall n i c h e, you cannot possibly expect the majority of people to actually enjoy it

Be mindful of your guests


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

No. I don't see anyone changing out their awful trap garbage when I jump in someone else's ride, and I don't expect or ask them to. Having a party or something is a totally different scenario.


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## iamaom (Jan 17, 2019)

duffbeer33 said:


> I also don't turn on Meshuggah when I'm giving a coworker a ride in my car, etc, because people tend to feel uncomfortable around super heavy music. It's an unfortunate fact of listening to music that many people consider "harsh."



Not to rag on you in particular, but there seems to be a weird phenomenon of several posters here reading the same posts I am but coming away with a completely opposite interpretation than what's actually being said. The rant isn't about people not liking metal, it's about metal being singled out and discriminated against when it comes to preferences and your post demonstrates it fantastically. It's not that we want to force others to like or listen to our music, it's the shared experience of being constantly bombarded with everyone else's music on a regular basis but then being chastised if we decide to be a smidgen public with our love for metal. I find Cardi B to be harsh and uncomfortable to listen to, but I'm expected to just "deal with it" if it's being played. I don't play my music in public or social settings (metal or not) because I respect that others have vastly different preferences than I do, and yet that respect is almost never reciprocated. I don't want them to play Meshuggah in a grocery store, I'd just prefer it if they didn't play Imagine Dragons' "Thunder" either.

I know this is a bizarre context to use this phrase, but your post feels like "victim blaming". If I complain about someone else's music, I'm an asshole. If someone complains about my music, somehow I'm still the one who's an asshole.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

iamaom said:


> If I complain about someone else's music, I'm an asshole. If someone complains about my music, somehow I'm still the one who's an asshole.


This is pretty much exactly my point. If I'm an asshole either way, I'm gonna be an asshole that enjoys the music I'm listening to in my car.


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## budda (Jan 17, 2019)

So has anyone actually become more accepting yet?


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## gnoll (Jan 17, 2019)

Who cares what music is playing in a car though? I just don't understand how that could be a big deal to someone. I can't think of any music that would make me go "please change that". Maybe if someone was looping the same song over and over for hours, or if the music was so loud it was hurting my ears, maybe then I would say something, but if it's just music that's not in line with my personal tastes? Big fucking deal.


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## Mathemagician (Jan 17, 2019)

Lmao how is this thread 12 pages. Like just don’t be a douche. 

Think to yourself “Would a douche do this thing?” If so, then do not do that thing.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

But, who is the douche? The person saying "ERMERGERD can you like, totally NOT listen to your angry screamo when we hang out?!" or the person who plays whatever music they want to regardless of whether it's enjoyed by everyone in earshot?


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## Albake21 (Jan 17, 2019)

I guess I'm in the boat of, it's my music and my car. Deal with it or get out. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blasting my music, I usually play my music way lower no matter who is in my car. It's kind of like my first date test I always do, I play metal and see the reaction, if she like it or at the very least tolerates it, the date can go on. I've done this ever since one girl turned off my radio in my car, like literally kept turning it off because she didn't like it. That's a big nope for me.

My point is, I'm very niche when it comes to music. I pretty much tell people that from the start, but I don't go around telling people what they should and shouldn't listen to. If someone comes into my car and turns off my music or says they don't want to listen to my music, well then they are the ones not accepting other's music choice.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jan 17, 2019)

^Just take grindcore lyrics, add some beats downloaded from the Internet instead of the guitar, mumble them, and your passengers would be perfectly okay with it.


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## Albake21 (Jan 17, 2019)

PunkBillCarson said:


> ^Just take grindcore lyrics, add some beats downloaded from the Internet instead of the guitar, mumble them, and your passengers would be perfectly okay with it.


I wish I could like this more than once. It's so true it hurts.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jan 17, 2019)

Also, don't forget to call it trap music. That way your passenger thinks they're listening to some "next level shit."


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## duffbeer33 (Jan 17, 2019)

iamaom said:


> I know this is a bizarre context to use this phrase, but your post feels like "victim blaming"



I'm not sure how that was your takeaway from my post. I thought my points were pretty straightforward; understanding social cues is common sense. Does it suck that metal isn't more widely accepted? Yes. Circling back to the original point of this forum, here's an example: I have friends who love country music (which I absolutely despise) and I used to complain to them about it for years. One day we did an ipod shuffle where everyone plays random songs from their ipod. I'm pretty sure I had some old Killswitch Engage, Lamb of God, and Fear Factory tracks that played. And guess what, they complained about it. But I had it coming, because I had complained about their music for years.



iamaom said:


> I don't want them to play Meshuggah in a grocery store, I'd just prefer it if they didn't play Imagine Dragons' "Thunder" either.



Ok...but what's your point? You want something that is in the middle of Meshuggah and Imagine Dragons? Or do you want the grocery store to play nothing?

Unfortunately metal will likely always be a niche genre, but that's how we want it, isn't it? If it ever became mainstream, we'd probably hate it (for examples, please see FFDP, Godsmack, BMTH etc). A lot of metalheads can be a little snobby, but I think they take pride in knowing about the bands nobody knows, etc.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

If the options are Imagine Dragons or no music, no music is the only acceptable answer.


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## Xaios (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> Lmao how is this thread 12 pages.


As the author of this thread, I have no idea.


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## TedEH (Jan 17, 2019)

I can't be the only person who - as clearly a metal-enjoying kind of person - has had someone turn down or change the music in their car for ME because they know it would be grating for me to listen to, and I usually extend the same courtesy, to a point. It's a social cues and context thing, as was said. It's not a "whose taste is more important" conversation, it's a question of intentionally putting something aggressive and abrasive in someone's path - aka being a d*ck. Sure - my car, my tunes, I get that. No way in hell is there going to be country blaring out of my car any time soon. But I'm not going to go "oh hey, Grandma's getting in the car - I'd better crank some Gorod". I'm sure she could handle some lighter Opeth or DTP at below-speaking-level volumes.


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## Albake21 (Jan 17, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I can't be the only person who - as clearly a metal-enjoying kind of person - has had someone turn down or change the music in their car for ME because they know it would be grating for me to listen to, and I usually extend the same courtesy, to a point. It's a social cues and context thing, as was said. It's not a "whose taste is more important" conversation, it's a question of intentionally putting something aggressive and abrasive in someone's path - aka being a d*ck. Sure - my car, my tunes, I get that. No way in hell is there going to be country blaring out of my car any time soon. But I'm not going to go "oh hey, Grandma's getting in the car - I'd better crank some Gorod". I'm sure she could handle some lighter Opeth or DTP at below-speaking-level volumes.


I mean sure, there are some very rare cases where social cues are needed (like my grandmother). But someone my age or even a parent, nah my car my music.


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## Mathemagician (Jan 17, 2019)

GunpointMetal said:


> But, who is the douche? The person saying "ERMERGERD can you like, totally NOT listen to your angry screamo when we hang out?!" or the person who plays whatever music they want to regardless of whether it's enjoyed by everyone in earshot?



The douche is clearly the one lacking enough social graces to not annoy the people surrounding them. 

I haven’t read the thread since like way early so I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not.


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## Albake21 (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> The douche is clearly the one lacking enough social graces to not annoy the people surrounding them.
> 
> I haven’t read the thread since like way early so I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not.


Guess I'm a douche then


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> The douche is clearly the one lacking enough social graces to not annoy the people surrounding them.
> 
> I haven’t read the thread since like way early so I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not.


It's a trick question, because they're the same person.


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## TedEH (Jan 17, 2019)

The image I have in my mind is such that everyone who keeps saying "my car, my music" still (consciously or not) at least turns the music down when someone else is there, knowing their tastes are being judged.


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## Albake21 (Jan 17, 2019)

TedEH said:


> The image I have in my mind is such that everyone who keeps saying "my car, my music" still (consciously or not) at least turns the music down when someone else is there, knowing their tastes are being judged.


Like I said before, I'm at least polite enough to turn it down and not blast it like I normally would.


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## Mathemagician (Jan 17, 2019)

Can there be “metal” neckbeards? 

I’m baiting people now though I admit.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> Can there be “metal” neckbeards?
> 
> I’m baiting people now though I admit.


Isn't "neckbeard" inherently involved with some form of metal. Usually power metal or NWOBHM, I would imagine. I'm just making a joke out of this whole situation. I don't complain about other people's music (unless it is, in fact, Imagine Dragons) so I ignore people when they complain about mine.


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## Mathemagician (Jan 17, 2019)

I know they are a meme at this point but do they do that radioactive song? Because if so that chorus is still the shit to this day. 

They figured it out though, make safe “rock” music that can be played anywhere by anyone and then roll in the fucking royalties. 

It’s like people hating on pop stars. They make money and don’t work a day job. They don’t care about you, lol.


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> It’s like people hating on pop stars. They make money and don’t work a day job. They don’t care about you, lol.


Yeah, that's them, lol. I'm glad they don't care about me. If I could bend over enough to suck my own dick .. er.. make throwaway pop music for cash, I wouldn't care what some metal nerds on internet think either. But I also don't equate mass digestibility to any sort of quality. Lots of people eat McDonald's every day. A lot more than any of the local restaurants I prefer. That doesn't make McDonald's good food. Or even really food at all, for that matter.


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## Rick (Jan 17, 2019)

I'm incredibly picky on what I listen to especially when it comes to metal, cannot get into a female doing screaming for example.


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## Xaios (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> They figured it out though, make safe “rock” music that can be played anywhere by anyone and then roll in the fucking royalties.


Imaginickel Dragonsback.


Rick said:


> I'm incredibly picky on what I listen to especially when it comes to metal, cannot get into a female doing screaming for example.


ALL HAIL DJOD.


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## Rick (Jan 17, 2019)

ALL HAIL DJOD

Kinda liking the new digs...


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## Xaios (Jan 17, 2019)

Rick said:


> Kinda liking the new digs...


Aside from the occasional bug (for example, the search function was fucked for a couple months), the new software is a big improvement over vBulletin.

Also, don't tell Chris that I said this, but it looks better too.

I still miss my golden rep bar though.


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## Rick (Jan 17, 2019)

Xaios said:


> Aside from the occasional bug (for example, the search function was fucked for a couple months), the new software is a big improvement over vBulletin.
> 
> Also, don't tell Chris that I said this, but it looks better too.



I don't really talk to any of those older guys from back in the day, gave up on MG.org a while ago, just thought I'd poke my head in...


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## Xaios (Jan 17, 2019)

Rick said:


> I don't really talk to any of those older guys from back in the day, gave up on MG.org a while ago, just thought I'd poke my head in...


Feel free to stay a while. Some differences these past years:
- Djent is no longer in, even on SSO.
- Blackmachine is no longer worshipped.
- Independent luthiers are generally regarded with far more suspicion, given the absolute truckload of them that turned out to be scam artists.
- OT (and General Music to a lesser extent) are ruled by roving packs of megathreads.
- Ola is unbanned.


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## TedEH (Jan 17, 2019)

This is suddenly the "new vs old SSO" thread.... I'm ok with this.
Don't forget to Have Fun With It, and remember that every problem is solved with a Used Prestige.


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## AirForbes1 (Jan 17, 2019)

Mathemagician said:


> Lmao how is this thread 12 pages.



And it came back from the dead, too.

I read through from the beginning and was going to comment on someone's post and realized that they made it 6 months ago.

I also agree with the with the consensus that when it comes to metal, tolerance is a 1 way street and on the receiving end are some super "open-minded people".


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## budda (Jan 17, 2019)

I didn't realize things looked different .

No one answered my question I posted this afternoon .

(MG crew is doing well overall, fyi)


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## Rick (Jan 17, 2019)

Xaios said:


> Feel free to stay a while. Some differences these past years:
> - Djent is no longer in, even on SSO.
> - Blackmachine is no longer worshipped.
> - Independent luthiers are generally regarded with far more suspicion, given the absolute truckload of them that turned out to be scam artists.
> ...



Glad to hear Ola is unbanned.


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## USMarine75 (Jan 18, 2019)

Block letter is better.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jan 18, 2019)

budda said:


> I didn't realize things looked different .
> 
> No one answered my question I posted this afternoon .
> 
> (MG crew is doing well overall, fyi)


Simple answer is no, nobody has become more accepting thus far.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

If anything, we've become less accepting.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jan 18, 2019)

TedEH said:


> If anything, we've become less accepting.


I think this is a great time to mention I've ordered two Babymetal shirts this week and I look forward to deeply irritating tryhard metal bros by existing and enjoying something they can't appreciate.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

How dare you enjoy something that someone else doesn't! Rage!

I still can't get into Babymetal but I get why people like it I guess.


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## budda (Jan 18, 2019)

I put an award-winning hip hop record (to pimp a butterfly) on my iPod. It's been a while since I've listened to any hiphop voluntarily.

It's fucking fantastic, and I look forward to getting some time in with "Damn".

Still not ready for mumble rap but that's ok.


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## wankerness (Jan 18, 2019)

GuitarBizarre said:


> I think this is a great time to mention I've ordered two Babymetal shirts this week and I look forward to deeply irritating tryhard metal bros by existing and enjoying something they can't appreciate.



Those girls are over 18 at this point, they're going to have to get a namechange and stop singing about being late getting up in the morning for school and eating chocolate!

(or replace them with more kids)


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## GunpointMetal (Jan 18, 2019)

wankerness said:


> Those girls are over 18 at this point, they're going to have to get a namechange and stop singing about being late getting up in the morning for school and eating chocolate!
> 
> (or replace them with more kids)


I thought I read something where the oldest one did leave? They'll never run short of "idols" for groups like that, I'm sure. It's not my thing, but I get why people enjoy the music and I've heard they put on a good show.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

I keep hearing people say their backing band is really great, but I can't get past the theme and the girly/idol vocals. Oh well.
Strange but similar thought -> The backing bands they have for shows like American Idol all tend to be really solid-sounding players too, but in a comparable way, I don't think that's enough to sell me on the whole package.


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## Xaios (Jan 18, 2019)

TedEH said:


> Strange but similar thought -> The backing bands they have for shows like American Idol all tend to be really solid-sounding players too, but in a comparable way, I don't think that's enough to sell me on the whole package.


I think there's a difference in what they're selling, and not just musically. Babymetal clearly has a humorous, tongue-in-cheek parodic quality to it, while still being a pretty solid musical example of the thing it's parodying, similar to Dethklok. Even if I don't buy the gimmick, I can appreciate the humour created by the juxtaposition of these hyper-competent musicians playing death metal behind high-pitched idol vocalists. In shows like American Idol, they're still playing the same pop music at the end of the day. Even if they're really good at it, it's played completely straight, and so there's not really any layers to it, no interesting subtext.


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## wankerness (Jan 18, 2019)

Xaios said:


> I think there's a difference in what they're selling, and not just musically. Babymetal clearly has a humorous, tongue-in-cheek parodic quality to it, while still being a pretty solid musical example of the thing it's parodying, similar to Dethklok. Even if I don't buy the gimmick, I can appreciate the humour created by the juxtaposition of these hyper-competent musicians playing death metal behind high-pitched idol vocalists. In shows like American Idol, they're still playing the same pop music at the end of the day. Even if they're really good at it, it's played completely straight, and so there's not really any layers to it, no interesting subtext.



Yup, this!! There's a huge difference between really solid players playing stuff that requires no effort on their part and never lets them do anything in the foreground (American Idol), and really solid players getting to show off while playing silly stuff (Deathklok, Babymetal). The guys in babymetal do play rather technical stuff, act like they're having the time of their lives, and have plenty of instrumental breaks and wanky little solos. It's goofy as hell. I loved the blu-ray I watched. I'd get some more of their live videos but the Japanese releases are 80 bucks a disc (Japan and CD/DVD prices make no sense).

I do not think it would work for me nearly as well in audio-only format.



GunpointMetal said:


> I thought I read something where the oldest one did leave? They'll never run short of "idols" for groups like that, I'm sure. It's not my thing, but I get why people enjoy the music and I've heard they put on a good show.



I just looked it up - looks like one of the two "backing" girls left. One is VERY clearly the "lead" singer in the concert I saw, and if she's still around they probably aren't much different apart from the stage show being less silly. I think the two backup girls are very easily replaceable, but the main one maybe less so. But yeah, there are a buttload of "idols" over there so I'm sure they could reset if they wanted and still be good.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

I suppose, but I just meant that while they're "technically good" on some level, but I'm not interested anyway.

And I'd argue that just because it's pop music, it's not necessarily easy to pull off consistently.


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## Demiurge (Jan 18, 2019)

Maybe a good transition between being smug about one's own musical taste and being more accepting is being smug about being so tolerant. "I like my stuff and I don't mind your stuff, while you don't like my stuff and only like your stuff- look how diverse I am!"


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## wankerness (Jan 18, 2019)

TedEH said:


> I suppose, but I just meant that while they're "technically good" on some level, but I'm not interested anyway.



Well, then thanks for stopping by!!



TedEH said:


> And I'd argue that just because it's pop music, it's not necessarily easy to pull off consistently.



No, but it is much less interesting to listen to as a best-case scenario usually means you're not going to notice. I mean, there's technically accomplished pop music out there for sure,* it's just with that kind of show you're usually going to get the blandest stuff imaginable played flawlessly.

*I suddenly got an urge to listen to Jamiroquai - Canned Heat.


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## TedEH (Jan 18, 2019)

So what we're both saying is that the argument is often "I don't like x because it's not technically impressive enough", but even technical skill can be boring.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jan 19, 2019)

My thing is, people often equate metal with being harsh and there's actually a lot of it that isn't really that grating or harsh, which is why I believe that you can still listen to metal around other people, you just sort of have to know the crowd. Fuck, there are so many genres of metal and so many songs, and you mean to tell me that you can't pick a few songs that can serve as a middle ground between you and another person? With all that metal encapsulates, I find it incredibly hard to believe there's nothing that a person who loves pop or rap wouldn't enjoy as well as you, granted you don't have a giant stick up your ass when it comes to listening to bands that aren't trying to emulate quantam physics on a fretboard and 27 strings or some shit.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jan 21, 2019)

PunkBillCarson said:


> My thing is, people often equate metal with being harsh and there's actually a lot of it that isn't really that grating or harsh, which is why I believe that you can still listen to metal around other people, you just sort of have to know the crowd. Fuck, there are so many genres of metal and so many songs, and you mean to tell me that you can't pick a few songs that can serve as a middle ground between you and another person? With all that metal encapsulates, I find it incredibly hard to believe there's nothing that a person who loves pop or rap wouldn't enjoy as well as you, granted you don't have a giant stick up your ass when it comes to listening to bands that aren't trying to emulate quantam physics on a fretboard and 27 strings or some shit.


That's a lot of words you just used to reiterate the basic, slightly whiny point of "But *WHY* don't people like *MY* music tastes? They should enjoy what *I* enjoy!"


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## PunkBillCarson (Jan 21, 2019)

GuitarBizarre said:


> That's a lot of words you just used to reiterate the basic, slightly whiny point of "But *WHY* don't people like *MY* music tastes? They should enjoy what *I* enjoy!"




You could have just said "all that went over my head."


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## wankerness (Jan 21, 2019)

PunkBillCarson said:


> My thing is, people often equate metal with being harsh and there's actually a lot of it that isn't really that grating or harsh, which is why I believe that you can still listen to metal around other people, you just sort of have to know the crowd. Fuck, there are so many genres of metal and so many songs, and you mean to tell me that you can't pick a few songs that can serve as a middle ground between you and another person? With all that metal encapsulates, I find it incredibly hard to believe there's nothing that a person who loves pop or rap wouldn't enjoy as well as you, granted you don't have a giant stick up your ass when it comes to listening to bands that aren't trying to emulate quantam physics on a fretboard and 27 strings or some shit.



Disagree. I know people that curl up at the slightest hint of dissonance or distortion. I remember someone that couldn't even deal with the post-chorus riff on Monkey Gone to Heaven, for example.


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## TedEH (Jan 21, 2019)

Metal is not the only music with dissonance or distortion though, so that doesn't really negate any point about metal specifically. It's just another case of someone having tastes for particular musical elements that may or may not be found in a given example from any genre.


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## wankerness (Jan 21, 2019)

TedEH said:


> Metal is not the only music with dissonance or distortion though, so that doesn't really negate any point about metal specifically. It's just another case of someone having tastes for particular musical elements that may or may not be found in a given example from any genre.



He said "you can find a metal song for everyone." I said "no you can't, some people can't deal with distortion period." Unless you count something like, I dunno, "Dee" to be metal just cause it was on a metal album 

In conclusion, I dunno what you're responding to


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## TedEH (Jan 21, 2019)

I'm sure you could find a song that counts as "metal" in some regard, or would be in rotation by a metal listener, that has little to no distortion in it. (Lots of Opeth, Devin, etc)
I don't know that I've met anyone who can't handle distortion at all though- only cases where an aversion to abrasive/aggressive sounds and a less-than-discerning ear for guitar tones would lead someone to make that claim. Or people who say they can't listen to screaming/growling (except for when they _do_ listen to those things but don't really recognize/acknowledge it because it's framed in an easier-to-digest context).

I mean, maybe those people are out there, but in moooooost cases, but my point is that it's usually possible to find something that's suitable/enjoyable for non-metal-fans within the playlists of metal fans.


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## wankerness (Jan 21, 2019)

I don't deal with the population at large, it's all anecdotal, I just had those reactions when I used to work in an office with middle aged women. There was a split between the ones that grew up with crushes on Motley Crue et al that wanted to listen to that stuff/old punk all day, and the other older ones that wanted to listen to frickin George Winston and James Taylor all day that couldn't deal with anything that had a distorted guitar solo in it, let alone a crunchy riff! If they were feeling REALLY saucy they'd play "The Joker." I don't think you could find any metal song that they liked without finding one that was only classified by virtue of having been released by a metal artist next to other metal songs. Ex, Opeth's Patterns in the Ivy.

Boy am I glad I'm out of cubical land and into my own office.


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## PunkBillCarson (Jan 21, 2019)

I mean, that may be true for some people, but in my personal experience, I could usually find something in the realm of metal that people who normally don't like metal enjoyed. Of course, you're always going to run into THAT person, but there are elements of rock/metal that appear in pop songs whether or not the people who listen to pop realize it. If you go and play Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk for someone who doesn't like metal, yeah, you're probably going to get looked at funny, which even as a huge fan of that album and the band behind it, that's understandable. Even when I first started listening to metal, it's not like I went straight to black metal. Hell, the first time I heard black metal, I didn't get it. But if you go and play something a bit lighter or something with a catchy chorus which is what pop fans love, they're more likely to be receptive. I realize that is the entire anti-thesis of metal, but I'm also not trying to get into a debate about music when it could be something as simple as a fucking car ride. Also, considering metal is about going against the grain, I'll go against the grain of metal myself and play by my own rules.


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## Given To Fly (Jan 22, 2019)

The premise of this thread is a phenomenon that is rarely discussed. At its core, human beings take their musical tastes personally and are easily offended when their tastes are criticized or met with anything other than affirmation. This makes meaningful discussion difficult. If I said Ansal Adams and Vincent Van Gogh are not the same regarding their art, I don’t think I’d be saying anything offensive. If I said Taylor Swift and Mozart are not the same regarding their art, at some point, feelings would get hurt. 

Music affects people both physically and emotionally. The key being “music affects people.” By doing so, music makes us vulnerable so we get extremely defensive if we feel our taste or our ears are being attacked. There is a lot more to it that I know little about, but what has been described in this thread is extremely common. The fact a thread was made about it is extremely rare.


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## High Plains Drifter (Jan 22, 2019)

Given To Fly said:


> Music affects people both physically and emotionally. The key being “music affects people.” By doing so, music makes us vulnerable so we get extremely defensive if we feel our taste or our ears are being attacked. There is a lot more to it that I know little about, but what has been described in this thread is extremely common. The fact a thread was made about it is extremely rare.



Music is part of our heart and soul for that matter. I think something that plays into this is the kind of relationship that we have with someone. My best bud and I have insanely similar taste in music. We both also try to appreciate as much as we can about songs we dislike lol. We don't always agree on musicians/ songs but we both enjoy discussing aspects of a certain song, musician, video, band, etc that we like/ dislike. There's even times that he'll give me shit about something new that I like ( especially if I'm trying to turn him onto it lol) but we KNOW each other and we don't take anything too far... just as we don't try to relentlessly push bands, albums, or musicians on one another. 

My wife on the other hand... I for some weird reason, almost feel offended if she blows off a song or musician that I'm particularly passionate about. I don't know why. We also don't mix very well on our musical tastes. I don't give her crap about the stuff she listens to and visa versa but for whatever reason, I feel almost hurt if she doesn't reciprocate some degree of positivity. Maybe it's as if she's rejecting a piece of my heart? I dunno. 

With strangers... it's more that I couldn't really care less for the most part. Took me a while to be able to truly understand and appreciate why / how people have such varied taste in music, but I eventually got it somewhere well into my adulthood. If it makes you happy and makes you dance and smile... I'm glad it exists.


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## Andromalia (Jan 22, 2019)

Mandatory
Answer is at 2 second from start.


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## TedEH (Jan 22, 2019)

^ I don't know if I'm the minority in this, but even being a fan of metal, I find that kind of "F*CK EVERYTHING AAAAH SLAAAAYER METAAAAL BREAK EVERYTHING" character really obnoxious.


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## iamaom (Jan 22, 2019)

TedEH said:


> ^ I don't know if I'm the minority in this, but even being a fan of metal, I find that kind of "F*CK EVERYTHING AAAAH SLAAAAYER METAAAAL BREAK EVERYTHING" character really obnoxious.


Every old-school metal band's youtube video is full of comments like "This is my neighbors favorite song, whether they like it or not!", come on dude it's just fucking metallica, they haven't been heavy or controversial for decades. A lot of old school metal fans are a weird juxtaposition of not being able to tell if they're 13 and just discovered electric guitar or 45 and haven't listened to any new music since the 90's.


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## GuitarBizarre (Jan 22, 2019)

iamaom said:


> Every old-school metal band's youtube video is full of comments like "This is my neighbors favorite song, whether they like it or not!", come on dude it's just fucking metallica, they haven't been heavy or controversial for decades. A lot of old school metal fans are a weird juxtaposition of not being able to tell if they're 13 and just discovered electric guitar or 45 and haven't listened to any new music since the 90's.


Most of them are one on the inside and the other on the outside.


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## wankerness (Jan 22, 2019)

Given To Fly said:


> The premise of this thread is a phenomenon that is rarely discussed. At its core, human beings take their musical tastes personally and are easily offended when their tastes are criticized or met with anything other than affirmation. This makes meaningful discussion difficult. If I said Ansal Adams and Vincent Van Gogh are not the same regarding their art, I don’t think I’d be saying anything offensive. If I said Taylor Swift and Mozart are not the same regarding their art, at some point, feelings would get hurt.
> 
> Music affects people both physically and emotionally. The key being “music affects people.” By doing so, music makes us vulnerable so we get extremely defensive if we feel our taste or our ears are being attacked. There is a lot more to it that I know little about, but what has been described in this thread is extremely common. The fact a thread was made about it is extremely rare.



This isn't specific to music. If someone cared more about visual art than music, they'd surely swap ease of offense. And anger when musical tastes are insulted usually won't compare to anger of their political beliefs being questioned, especially if they spend all day in an echo chamber. It's just primitive tribalism.


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## Xaios (Jan 22, 2019)

Thread got deep all of a sudden, yo.


Andromalia said:


> Mandatory
> Answer is at 2 second from start.



Holy crap, I'd forgotten about this. I don't care if I would think this kind of person is incredibly obnoxious in real life. "Vegetarian Progressive Grindcore," "Super Black Metal" and "Lounge" FTMFW.


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