# How the heck do Vigier guitars have neck relief?



## Bearitone (Jan 7, 2019)

I'm sure some of you are familiar with Vigier guitars and their 90/10 system where they basically have a giant strip of carbon fiber running down the neck instead of a truss rod.

What I don't understand is owners of these guitars saying they actually do have a bit of relief. How is that possible?

They had to level the frets didn't they? Well you can't level frets on a perfectly rigid body and end up with relief right?

Maybe they manufacture the neck and level the frets without the strings attached then, they add the strings and the string tension gives it a tiny bit of relief? Or would the strings be too weak to even do that?

This concept is honestly driving me crazy. Its been a very long time since I've had the feeling of "I've got to know the answer!", so yeah if anyone can help me solve this riddle that would be awesome because I want build a neck this way in the future


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

There is just enough flexibility where the string tension pulls the neck into relief. It's a system that works surprisingly well, even with varying degrees of string tension.

Patrice is quite the engineer.

Modulus used to do the same thing, build thier carbon fiber necks with just enough rigidity that they didn't need truss rods.


----------



## Bearitone (Jan 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> There is just enough flexibility where the string tension pulls the neck into relief. It's a system that works surprisingly well, even with varying degrees of string tension.
> 
> Patrice is quite the engineer.
> 
> Modulus used to do the same thing, build thier carbon fiber necks with just enough rigidity that they didn't need truss rods.



Thank you thank you thank you!
I've got to try this out. I don't know why this isn't a more commonly used concept.

Any ideas why, for example, fender or any of their sister companies don't pick up this practice? There's a little guy (Vigier) who's proven it works and fender has all the resources to implement it at a likely lower cost.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

kindsage said:


> Thank you thank you thank you!
> I've got to try this out. I don't know why this isn't a more commonly used concept.
> 
> Any ideas why, for example, fender or any of their sister companies pick up this practice? There's a little guy (Vigier) who's proven it works and and fender has all the resources to implement it at a likely lower cost.



Tradition. 

Not to mention it would probably take a good deal of R&D and retooling. 

It's the same reason you don't see things like Richlite become more common place. There's just no immediate benefit to re-engineering something that's already selling well. 

Plus, Vigier makes it work because they build low volume and can better control thier raw materials. Who knows how viable something like this would be when scaled up dramatically.


----------



## Bearitone (Jan 7, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Tradition.
> 
> Not to mention it would probably take a good deal of R&D and retooling.
> 
> ...



That makes sense. Sort of a shame but, it makes sense.
Sort of off topic but, do you have any first hand experience with richilite/rocklite? If so, how heavy is it compared to maple?


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

kindsage said:


> That makes sense. Sort of a shame but, it makes sense.
> Sort of off topic but, do you have any first hand experience with richilite/rocklite? If so, how heavy is it compared to maple?



I've held a sheet of it, Richlite, and it seemed really heavy, but I'm not sure how it would translate to something guitar sized.


----------



## cardinal (Jan 7, 2019)

I’m sure it’s stable, but I’m really picky about my relief, so I’ve stayed away from Vigier stuff because I want to be able to set the relief where I want it, not where they hoped it would be.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 7, 2019)

cardinal said:


> I’m sure it’s stable, but I’m really picky about my relief, so I’ve stayed away from Vigier stuff because I want to be able to set the relief where I want it, not where they hoped it would be.



That is kind of the down side. If you're the type who is very proactive with thier setups and prefer extra fine tuning, it's probably not a system for you. 

That said, Vigier guitars are very high quality and extremely great playing. I'm sure you've handled some in your travels, but if not, I recommend at least trying them.


----------



## pott (Jan 7, 2019)

I've had two Vigiers (still got one, a GV Wood which is one if my all-time favorite guitars) and while I strongly identify with the 'pickup about setups' camp, I have never felt unhappy about how either were setup.
If your preferences are different, than clearly you may be!

For reference: https://reverb.com/item/2128277-vigier-gv-wood-in-ebony-fade-with-hard-case


----------



## Given To Fly (Jan 7, 2019)

kindsage said:


> Thank you thank you thank you!
> I've got to try this out. I don't know why this isn't a more commonly used concept.
> 
> Any ideas why, for example, fender or any of their sister companies don't pick up this practice? There's a little guy (Vigier) who's proven it works and fender has all the resources to implement it at a likely lower cost.



It is more common in the classical/acoustic guitar world. The reason it works for Vigier is “they take the time to make it work.” Fender can not afford to do that.


----------



## laxu (Jan 8, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> Tradition.
> 
> Not to mention it would probably take a good deal of R&D and retooling.
> 
> ...



Tradition was actually building guitars that did not have truss rods. The truss rod was an important development in avoiding strings pulling the neck to too much bow or the neck twisting over time. The modern double action truss rod (allows for bowing both ways) is a further improvement on that. Using carbon fiber rods is essentially adding non-adjustable truss rods in the neck that make the neck less flexible but still able to bend a little.

I don't see a benefit to not having an adjustable truss rod even if it works.


----------



## MaxOfMetal (Jan 8, 2019)

laxu said:


> Tradition was actually building guitars that did not have truss rods. The truss rod was an important development in avoiding strings pulling the neck to too much bow or the neck twisting over time. The modern double action truss rod (allows for bowing both ways) is a further improvement on that. Using carbon fiber rods is essentially adding non-adjustable truss rods in the neck that make the neck less flexible but still able to bend a little.
> 
> I don't see a benefit to not having an adjustable truss rod even if it works.



You're not wrong.

But the reality is that 1) the greater majority of guitarists never adjust thier truss rods, or get someone else to do it for them, and 2) wood is susceptible to twisting and warping, even if all conditions of sourcing, construction and maintenance are followed. 

Having a neck that is mostly self correcting and nearly impervious to climate and time isn't a bad thing.

Also, I thought it was fairly clear that I was speaking to the nearly 75 year old tradition of using adjustable truss rods in modern guitars.


----------



## laxu (Jan 9, 2019)

MaxOfMetal said:


> You're not wrong.
> 
> But the reality is that 1) the greater majority of guitarists never adjust thier truss rods, or get someone else to do it for them, and 2) wood is susceptible to twisting and warping, even if all conditions of sourcing, construction and maintenance are followed.
> 
> ...



I know, I just wanted to point out that tradition is a changing thing.


----------



## Zhysick (Jan 13, 2019)

No truss rod = better neck resonance. No air channel inside the neck, more mass (but light because carbon) and all that things... And, if you don't need to adjust something, why having the option to do it?

In my job giving people the chance to adjust things is a bad udea. That normally leads to me going back and doing my job again because they touched what they didn't had to because it was already working properly...

Just another point of view.

PS: I enjoy adjusting the bow and all that


----------

