# Orson Scott Card destroys JK Rowling



## Chris (May 1, 2008)

J.K. Rowling, Lexicon and Oz

Holy shit, owned.


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## Nerina (May 1, 2008)

> And don't forget the lawsuit by Nancy K. Stouffer, the author of a book entitled The Legend of Rah and the Muggles, whose hero was named "Larry Potter."



wow.........


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## Anthony (May 1, 2008)

It's the Carlos Mencia of Fantasy!


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## D-EJ915 (May 1, 2008)

I hate that bitch and her weak books. People ask why I haven't read them? If I felt like reading a beginner childrens novel I would bust out my old Babar picturebooks which are infinitely superior.


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## Lucky Seven (May 1, 2008)

Anthony said:


> It's the Carlos Mencia of Fantasy!



How true that is. I love to see people get owned for stuff like this.


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## Trespass (May 1, 2008)

I hate her with a passion. Nothing says literary fucktard like "Harry Potter went to the store. Harry Potter grabbed a piece of candy, and it tasted terrible, almost like something he'd hate back home". Honestly, and when she attempts to throw in love, it comes out horribly wrong.

She lacks depth, lacks metaphor, and her narration voice is that of a 7 year olds (and thats being generous). I tend to think your literary voice in its full potential, is something you'd read and be natural and comfortable with in front of an audience of literary critics. If this is it, hell, it reflects her intelligence doesn't it?

Also, Rowling, next time you write a fucking 1000 page book for the sake of writing a 1000 page book, please don't include 6 major plot points, and hundreds of pages of filler in between them. (4th book). Or don't FUCKING WRITE A BOOK THATS 700 PAGES, AND THERE IS NO PLOT DEVELOPMENT SAVE THE LAST 100 PAGES! [Damn straight that warranted caps] (6th book)

Fuck I hate Rowling.


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## Nerina (May 1, 2008)

I never knew any of this.


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## sakeido (May 2, 2008)

I don't like her either, or her books. I only got sucked into seeing one of the movies (and it SUCKED) and read the last book, and it was shit. His Dark Materials, on the other hand - now that is a book series that deserves enormous sales.


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## noodles (May 2, 2008)

> Here's the irony: Vander Ark had the material for this book on his website for years, and Rowling is quoted as saying that when she needed to look up some 'fact" from her earlier books, she would sometimes "sneak into an Internet cafe while out writing and check a fact rather than go into a bookshop and buy a copy of Harry Potter."
> 
> In other words, she already had made personal use of Vander Ark's work and found it valuable. Even if it has shortcomings, she found it useful.
> 
> ...



Wow.


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## noodles (May 2, 2008)

Seriously, Chris, post this again so I can thank you another time.


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## DelfinoPie (May 2, 2008)

Nerina said:


> I never knew any of this.



+1 

I read the first two Harry Potter books and couldn't see what people in my class at school were raving about. I read about half of the third one and still couldn't see it so gave up.

The next book I read was "The Rum Diary" by Hunter S. Thompson; a completely different standard of writing.

I'm tempted to read "Enders Game" now 

God forbid Rowling misses out on some money


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## eaeolian (May 2, 2008)

DelfinoPie said:


> I'm tempted to read "Enders Game" now



Do. It's worth it - I don't always like OSC, but that book deserves all its accolades.


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## Groff (May 2, 2008)

You mean Harry Potter isn't unique?!

That's not true! That's impossible!

(If anyone has ever seen the worst witch TV series, the similarities in settings are quite obvious)


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## Vegetta (May 2, 2008)

Enders Game = WIN

Unfortunately his subsequent books have been a bit meh 

AS for Harry Potter - meh im not impressed - There are much beter novels where children learn magic (Magic of Recluse comes to mind..)

The whole mixing magic with present day schtick is done much much better by Charles DeLint (You all should read trader sometime - the main character Max Trader is a luthier) 

I can probably actually name 10 fantasy books off the top of my head that have the disadvantaged kid in a new school-like setting... that all predate harry potter.



TheMissing said:


> You mean Harry Potter isn't unique?!
> 
> That's not true! That's impossible!
> 
> (If anyone has ever seen the worst witch TV series, the similarities in settings are quite obvious)




Ive sen the show you aright about the similarities - very close to the same actually


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## halsinden (May 2, 2008)

just out of interest, in a mildly related point...

i've had some really odd things leveled at me whilst being in my band and releasing material to an international market, you know how it is, every musician has some corking after-dinner stories.

one that comes to mind in reading this though is a matter that, im very sorry to say, originated from someone whos actually a friend of mine.

i was told, indirectly, that said friend (also a singer in a similar band) had a particular beef against me and was regularly vocal about it. apparently i stole the lyric your minds eye from him.

we have a lyric in the song straight which reads:

in your minds eye am i standing alone?

the lyric was written by me in early 2005, the music written around 1999 by john and the version with those words on it released in early summer 2005. 


the band my friend is in released a song contains a lyric that reads:

the minds eye

and, if i remember correctly, was written and self-released around 2003.


according to him (though hes never said it to my face), this is literally direct plagiarism. whats perhaps being ignored is that the term the minds eye has been a philosophical term and theory for well who can even say? if were talking having used it in music?







this was released back in like 92 i think. (love that album).

this is also the same person who has apparently said one of our songs of the last album directly ripped off his band in style, as per a tune again on the same release made around 2003. our song that was apparently note-for-note... was written in 1997 by john when it was literally just a one man band.

H


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## DevourTheDamned (May 2, 2008)

"...clearly she needs to visit Oz."

Holy shit...
I just lost so much respect for her and i think ill go read Enders Games now...

wow.


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## kristallin (May 2, 2008)

She's the Metallica of the literary world. Suing her fans FTL


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## ElRay (May 2, 2008)

DelfinoPie said:


> I'm tempted to read "Enders Game" now


I would, but depending on how you read, you may want to wait until a Friday or Saturday night. I got stuck in a "OK, I really mean it this time; one more chapter and then that's it for tonight." cycle. Next thing I knew, I heard the birds chirping with the sun coming up. So I just decided to finish it. It probably took me ten hours from start to finish.

Card is the kind of author that could write a story about a bunch of folks going to the grocery store to shop for an upcoming BBQ, never actually get to the point where the BBQ starts, and you're absolutely drawn into the story the whole way.

Ray



Vegetta said:


> Enders Game = WIN
> 
> Unfortunately his subsequent books have been a bit meh


In the original telling of that series, there where some that were not up to his usual level. To some, they're better having read Wyrms and some of his earlier work, to other's it's better to have not read them.

Now, in the Ender's Shadow series (he initially retells Ender's Game from Bean's point of view, and then continues to fill in the gaps between Ender's Game and Speaker For The Dead), so far, is really top-notch.

The only book I was a bit disappointed in was Wyrms, mostly because I had Already read the whole Ender's Game series.

Ray


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## DelfinoPie (May 2, 2008)

ElRay said:


> I would, but depending on how you read, you may want to wait until a Friday or Saturday night. I got stuck in a "OK, I really mean it this time; one more chapter and then that's it for tonight." cycle. Next thing I knew, I heard the birds chirping with the sun coming up. So I just decided to finish it. It probably took me ten hours from start to finish.
> 
> Card is the kind of author that could write a story about a bunch of folks going to the grocery store to shop for an upcoming BBQ, never actually get to the point where the BBQ starts, and you're absolutely drawn into the story the whole way.
> 
> Ray



Yeah I'm the kind of guy who when he reads a book he will do it front to back in one sitting.

When I was on the night shift at work I read Bret Easton Ellis' entire bibliography in 4 days. I can't stand putting down a book and then picking it back up again because it takes me another 50 or so pages to get thoroughly involved again


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## noodles (May 2, 2008)

^ 

I polished off that book one Friday night/Saturday morning. I literally could not put it down. Other books in that series range from pretty damn good to pretty damn bad, but Ender's Game is one of the best pieces of science fiction ever.


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## Drew (May 2, 2008)

> Rowling has now shown herself to lack a brain, a heart and courage. Clearly, she needs to visit Oz.



*standing ovation*

I'll confess, I enjoyed the Harry Potter novels. They weren't high literature by any stretch, but they were entertaining, and sometimes you need something that's just a good, easy-reading story between books that challange you a bit more. 

That said, the last page of that article, and especially that closing sentence, was absolutely incenerary writing. Excellently played...

I read Ender's Game as a kid, I think. I'm less into sci-fi these days, but maybe I'll pick it up again. I agree with OSC on one point, at least - Rowling's activities, regardless of the merits or relative lack thereof of her writing (your choice), are absolutely in poor taste.


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## FortePenance (May 2, 2008)

I read Ender's Shadow first, so i'm more fond of that than Game, but they're both excellent books. I must read Shadow Puppets.


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## RgAscendant (May 6, 2008)

Ouch, she got owned pretty bad. Not sure I'll see her in the same way from now on. We'll see I guess.


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## noodles (May 6, 2008)

Drew said:


> I read Ender's Game as a kid, I think. I'm less into sci-fi these days, but maybe I'll pick it up again.



This is why I hate the tag "sci-fi". The original Star Wars worked because it was a good story set in a sci-fi world, kind of like Lord of the Rings is "fantasy".

Ender's Game fits that bill. It is an excellent story, set in a sci-fi world. The technology is mentioned insomuch as you need to enough about it to comprehend what is going on, but Card never geeks out on it. Sci-fi writers who waste pages upon pages describing obscure technological concepts, hidden behind the smallest semblance of plot, is what gives the genre a bad name.


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## Kotex (May 6, 2008)

eaeolian said:


> Do. It's worth it - I don't always like OSC, but that book deserves all its accolades.



+1 Enders Game is a GREAT fucking book.


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## Drew (May 6, 2008)

noodles said:


> This is why I hate the tag "sci-fi". The original Star Wars worked because it was a good story set in a sci-fi world, kind of like Lord of the Rings is "fantasy".
> 
> Ender's Game fits that bill. It is an excellent story, set in a sci-fi world. The technology is mentioned insomuch as you need to enough about it to comprehend what is going on, but Card never geeks out on it. Sci-fi writers who waste pages upon pages describing obscure technological concepts, hidden behind the smallest semblance of plot, is what gives the genre a bad name.



 I feel the same way about Vonnegut. Sure, you could call the guy sci-fi.... but that's not the _point_. Vonnegut writes about what it means to be human - he just occasionally uses some pretty far-reaching sci-fi elements to get there.


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## sakeido (May 6, 2008)

Drew said:


> I feel the same way about Vonnegut. Sure, you could call the guy sci-fi.... but that's not the _point_. Vonnegut writes about what it means to be human - he just occasionally uses some pretty far-reaching sci-fi elements to get there.



Make that another +1
I really enjoyed Hyperion/Fall of Hyperion/Endymion/Rise of Endymion for this reason. They were set in a sci-fi universe, but he only talks about the sci-fi elements long enough for you to go "wow that is totally cool and plausible" and he never beats you to death with "look at how much of a pseudo-scientist I am!" crap. 
A good story is a good story.. I really dislike people who get carried away with playing up the distinguishing characteristics of a genre. Like fantasy authors who write doorstop-sized novels with little actual plot development, sci-fi authors who waste entire chapters describing space stations, you know.


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## noodles (May 6, 2008)

Neil Stephenson is awesome at that kind of stuff. He'll describe some incredibly advanced future technology in a very matter-of-fact way, as if it is really no big deal at all. At the beginning of the book, you have this, "Holy shit!" kind of reaction to everything, but after about fifty pages, you're taking things like nanotechnology and atomic level engineering as a matter of course.

I hate science fiction writers who spend all this time fabricating this incredible universe, only to fill them with paper characters.


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## DelfinoPie (May 6, 2008)

noodles said:


> I hate science fiction writers who spend all this time fabricating this incredible universe, only to fill them with paper characters.



Michael Crichton's "Congo" immediately springs to mind.


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## TemjinStrife (May 6, 2008)

I did enjoy the Harry Potter books because they were enjoyable and fun, with good suspense and a believable and amusing universe. However, Ender's Game is utterly incredible.

Anyways, having spent a decent amount of time in college writing for lit courses (including three separate ones on Tolkien... I love UVM's English department!) Card's notes are spot-on. The body of literary criticism surrounding such literary works is immense, and what she is up in arms against has been done for YEARS (without complaint) to the Tolkien estate, the Star Wars universe, the Ringworld universe, the world surrounding Foundation... and many other more "classic" sources such as Crime and Punishment or The Grapes of Wrath. She has no case, and is showcasing a rather disappointing side of her personality.


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## Chris (May 6, 2008)

I plowed through the first 3 potter books, but the first 500 pages of book 4 were so horrible, I gave up on the series. Then the movies came out, and roont it.


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## JBroll (May 6, 2008)

I love how the fundagelicals wanted the books banned for promoting witchcraft... and the last movie seals the already-too-obvious Jesus plot. Whoops.

I've never called Vonnegut sci-fi... some cool sci-fi stuff, but it's too easy to associate sci-fi with the trashy stuff and the TV channel and association with that trash just insults the likes of Ender's Game and other such fun stuff.

Anyone else subscribed to the Tor free weekly sci-fi thing? That's been kinda interesting, I can post links if nobody has seen it...

Jeff


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## Hawksmoor (May 7, 2008)

Please do, Jeff, that would interrest me.


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## JBroll (May 7, 2008)

Slashdot | Tor Books Is Giving Away E-Books

Follow the link and sign up. If that doesn't work, PM me your email address and I'll forward all of the books and wallpapers I can find to you and try to set my mail up to forward all new mail from Tor to you.

Jeff


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## The Dark Wolf (May 7, 2008)

D-EJ915 said:


> I hate that bitch and her weak books. People ask why I haven't read them? If I felt like reading a beginner childrens novel I would bust out my old *Babar picturebooks *which are infinitely superior.



 Double owned.


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## noodles (May 7, 2008)

http://www.sevenstring.org/forum/of...f-you-don-t-give-fuck-about-harry-potter.html


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## D-EJ915 (May 7, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Double owned.


dude babar might have been french, but he was a badass


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## forelander (May 7, 2008)

Chris said:


> I plowed through the first 3 potter books, but the first 500 pages of book 4 were so horrible, I gave up on the series. Then the movies came out, and roont it.



What's funny about your use of the word roont, which I'm pretending you took from book 5 of the dark tower, is the fact that King enjoyed her books enough to reference them in that very book. 

Books were fun, but now they're over, Rowling realises it and is trying desperately to hold on to the few things she'll be able to release books about and make a few billion more dollars from. In the same way no one knows RL Stine for anything but goosebumps, Rowling's screwed.


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## noodles (May 7, 2008)

forelander said:


> What's funny about your use of the word roont, which I'm pretending you took from book 5 of the dark tower, is the fact that King enjoyed her books enough to reference them in that very book.



He named an explosive device after Harry Potter. How do you know that he doesn't think that her books are so bad that they destroy everything they touch?


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## forelander (May 8, 2008)

Uncle Orson and the Deathly Hallows - Uncle Orson Reviews Everything

I find this article on Rowling and the books by the same author particularly interesting too.

Noodles - "'will indeed stand time's test and wind up on a shelf where only the best are kept. I think Harry will take his place with Alice, Huck, Frodo and Dorothy and this is one series not just for the decade, but for the ages.'"
- Stephen King
JK Rowling:The mistress of all she surveys | Special Reports | guardian.co.uk Books


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## Naren (May 8, 2008)

Excellent article. Her claim is pretty ridiculous and inane. You can't sue someone for "stealing" your work when they write a guide to your fiction. I particularly liked this quote.



> It's like her stupid, self-serving claim that Dumbledore was gay. She wants credit for being very up-to-date and politically correct ? but she didn't have the guts to put that supposed "fact" into the actual novels, knowing that it might hurt sales.



It's the exact same thing I thought when she first announced that.

I was actually reading up on Orson Scott Card, because Ender's Game seems like a pretty interesting novel, but when I went to the book store today, they had 5 of his other books (Ender's Shadow and Speaker of the Dead are the only 2 I remember), but they didn't have Ender's Game. I think I'd like to check it out, though. Sounds interesting.


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## auxioluck (May 20, 2008)

Wow....Rowling just got a big 

Deserved.

Flexed, and cancelled, Rowling.


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## sakeido (May 20, 2008)

Naren said:


> Excellent article. Her claim is pretty ridiculous and inane. You can't sue someone for "stealing" your work when they write a guide to your fiction. I particularly liked this quote.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its an absolutely fantastic book, I liked it almost as much as the first Dune book.


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## D-EJ915 (May 20, 2008)

speaking of Card, I saw on A&E today that they made a andromeda strain movie, said it was coming on some time this weekend.


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## JBroll (May 20, 2008)

Andromeda Strain? As in the Crichton novel?

Good movie, all the same.

Jeff


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## Naren (May 20, 2008)

sakeido said:


> Its an absolutely fantastic book, I liked it almost as much as the first Dune book.



I actually went out and bought it about 2 weeks ago (like a day or two after I posted that) and read it through in 2 days. It was pretty excellent. I'm interested in checking out "Speaker of the Dead" as well, but I'd like to finish my second run-through of Dark Tower first (currently on Wolves of the Calla).


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## Chris (May 20, 2008)

Naren said:


> I actually went out and bought it about 2 weeks ago (like a day or two after I posted that) and read it through in 2 days. It was pretty excellent. I'm interested in checking out "Speaker of the Dead" as well, but I'd like to finish my second run-through of Dark Tower first (currently on Wolves of the Calla).



[derail]
You HAVE to read Malazan dude.
[/derail]


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## D-EJ915 (May 20, 2008)

JBroll said:


> Andromeda Strain? As in the Crichton novel?
> 
> Good movie, all the same.
> 
> Jeff


for some reason I thought it was a card book, lol, I've been mixing things up a lot lately


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## Naren (May 20, 2008)

Chris said:


> [derail]
> You HAVE to read Malazan dude.
> [/derail]



I've heard a lot of good stuff about that series. I wonder if I can find it around here. If not in Shinjuku (6-story bookstore), then in Ikebukuro (10-story bookstore).

Who writes it, by the way? And what's the name of the first book in the series? It's dark fantasy, right?


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## sakeido (May 20, 2008)

Naren said:


> I've heard a lot of good stuff about that series. I wonder if I can find it around here. If not in Shinjuku (6-story bookstore), then in Ikebukuro (10-story bookstore).
> 
> Who writes it, by the way? And what's the name of the first book in the series? It's dark fantasy, right?



Stephen Erikson I believe.. a canadian! 
Gardens of the Moon is the first published. There is a new one coming out ASAP... its like the Wheel of Time in scope, except without the total lack of plot development and way more badass characters. It is also the blackest, most brutal fantasy series I've ever personally read. 



Chris said:


> [derail]
> You HAVE to read Malazan dude.
> [/derail]



New one coming out june 30 here in Canada. You can pick it up from amazon.ca


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## Naren (May 20, 2008)

sakeido said:


> Stephen Erikson I believe.. a canadian!
> Gardens of the Moon is the first published. There is a new one coming out ASAP... its like the Wheel of Time in scope, except without the total lack of plot development and way more badass characters. It is also the blackest, most brutal fantasy series I've ever personally read.



[action=Naren]likes dark black brutal fantasy. [/action]


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 21, 2008)

I really liked the Harry Potter series  The lawsuit does seem pretty ridiculous to me though.

There's a few Sci-Fi/Fantasy series I want to pick up. I read most of the Drizzt series, and I want to snag Ringworld since I heard a lot of good things about that, and the Malazan series.


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## The Dark Wolf (May 21, 2008)

Ringworld is awesome. Halo owes a big WAAAZZZUP to Larry Niven.

Rishathra.  Right up your alley, JJ.


Eric - you'll dig Malazan, I'm pretty sure.
Guys - you dig Sci-fi, *trust me*. Check out the Hyperion series from Dan Simmons. It's just so fucking awesome. Chris, the Shrike is so up your alley.


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## JJ Rodriguez (May 21, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Rishathra.  Right up your alley, JJ.





Why does this remind me of a quote from Jay in a Kevin Smith movie?


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## D-EJ915 (May 21, 2008)

rishathra sounds like catgirls, wolfmen and humans


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## sakeido (May 21, 2008)

The Dark Wolf said:


> Guys - you dig Sci-fi, *trust me*. Check out the Hyperion series from Dan Simmons. It's just so fucking awesome. Chris, the Shrike is so up your alley.



The first two are some of my favorite books. Endimiyon is not quite as good, but still fantastic. I was planning on reading through this again shortly.. more epic writers should take notes from Dan Simmons. They are enormous books.. but shit is always happening! The first one, Hyperion, in particular is brilliant. 
Martin Silenus is a badass


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