# Back To Lifting Again...



## MikeH (Jan 7, 2011)

So throughout my first two years of high school, I played baseball. Upon doing this, lifting weights was a requirement. Every practice we would lift for an hour. During this time, I put on about 10 lbs. of muscle, which really boosted my self-confidence. 10 lbs. seems so little, but when you only weigh 135 to begin with, it's a good step.  But after that, I basically just got lazy as all hell and went back to being a scrawny kid again. So I've decided to get back into lifting, but making 20 lbs. my goal. Not 20 lbs. of pure muscle, per se. Just 20 lbs. more of weight. I'm 5'10" and 135, so I'm not exactly beefy. As of Monday, I will begin a 12 week regimen in the weight room as shown here:
12 Week Beginners Training Routine | Muscle & Strength

It states two nonconsecutive days a week, but I'll be doing 3; Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Does anyone have some helpful tips aside from what's listed? I know I'll certainly have to decrease the soda and increase the water, but I generally eat pretty well. I love salads and chicken, and generally tend to eat about 4 meals including each per week. Actually, I eat chicken almost every day.  Plus I'm straight edge, so no smoking or drinking has been, nor will be had, so I'm good on that. I'm also considering buying some Creatine to help with the mass.

Any suggestions are helpful.


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## SirMyghin (Jan 7, 2011)

Skip the creatine, it isn't worth it. All you do is store a bit more glycogen (which makes you look swollen and bigger while one it). You might get an extra rep or 2 per set but I am not convinced it will really do much, not to mention it is expensive. It also increases the amount of water you need to drink (which should be 3-4 litres a day working out) and increases instance of muscle cramping.


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## MikeH (Jan 7, 2011)

I was not aware of this. Thanks for the insight. The stuff I found was actually relatively cheap. $16 for a 3 lb. jug, which is very reasonable considering the prices of most supplements.


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## The Reverend (Jan 8, 2011)

SirMyghin said:


> Skip the creatine, it isn't worth it. All you do is store a bit more glycogen (which makes you look swollen and bigger while one it). You might get an extra rep or 2 per set but I am not convinced it will really do much, not to mention it is expensive. It also increases the amount of water you need to drink (which should be 3-4 litres a day working out) and increases instance of muscle cramping.



I respectfully disagree. I used it for three months. The first month, along with my normal supplements, I didn't make much progress. By the end of the second month, I was lifting about 25% more weight than before, as well as gaining a lot of mass. At the end of the third month, I was peaked. 

Are you considering any supplements? 20 lbs can be a hefty amount to try and gain. I tried for a year to gain that much, only gained 15. I was on Animal Paks, testosterone boosters, multiple kinds of protein, and a bunch of other stuff I can't remember haha.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 8, 2011)

I put on 40lbs in a year without Creatine. It works well for some people and not so well for others. OP, you won't get very good results going only 3 times a week. I'd recommend 5 or 6 times a week


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## The Reverend (Jan 8, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I put on 40lbs in a year without Creatine. It works well for some people and not so well for others. OP, you won't get very good results going only 3 times a week. I'd recommend 5 or 6 times a week



 Teach me your ways!


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## MikeH (Jan 8, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I put on 40lbs in a year without Creatine. It works well for some people and not so well for others. OP, you won't get very good results going only 3 times a week. I'd recommend 5 or 6 times a week



Well this is just to get back into the swing of things until I know I can start powerlifting. I'll start adding days maybe halfway through just to speed up the process.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Jan 8, 2011)

The Reverend said:


> Teach me your ways!



I'll be more than glad too. Eventually once I get my next break off school I'll make a proper thread for this. Unfortunately I'm no longer able to lift due to a bullshit back condition (which has nothing to do with my lifting, rather something I was born with) but I can always try and help others!


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## Revan132 (Jan 8, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I put on 40lbs in a year without Creatine. It works well for some people and not so well for others. OP, you won't get very good results going only 3 times a week. I'd recommend 5 or 6 times a week



I'd respectfully disagree with this statement. I lost 50 pounds of fat in 2 months by going to the gym 3 times a week and eating healthy. It all depends on what you actually accomplish when you go to the gym each day in your regiment.


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## xiphoscesar (Jan 8, 2011)

drink protein after your workouts, eating alot of chicken is good


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## The Reverend (Jan 8, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I'll be more than glad too. Eventually once I get my next break off school I'll make a proper thread for this. Unfortunately I'm no longer able to lift due to a bullshit back condition (which has nothing to do with my lifting, rather something I was born with) but I can always try and help others!



I used to lift with my brother, until he broke his back.  

But on a brighter note, I look forward to that thread!


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## MikeH (Jan 8, 2011)

My main motivator is actually Brandan Schiepatti from Bleeding Through. Dude is a hoss, and runs his own fitness company called Rise Above Fitness.







Best b'lee dat This Is Love, This Is Murderous will certainly be in rotation of my workout mix.


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## xiphoscesar (Jan 8, 2011)

Stealthtastic said:


> I put on 40lbs in a year without Creatine. It works well for some people and not so well for others. OP, you won't get very good results going only 3 times a week. I'd recommend 5 or 6 times a week


dam 40 lbs in a year, pics?


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## aiur55 (Jan 8, 2011)

i put on 10 lbs in 4 months while on creatine. Well, actually, I was stacking Presurge with intrabolic (tastes like cat urine). While the taste wasnt that great, it sorta grew on me and really helped my lifts. I highly recommend those 2 supplements.


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## josh pelican (Jan 8, 2011)

All I can say is please make sure you work on both upper and lower arm muscles. I went to school with too many douchefags that had "huge" upper arms and little girly forearms. You look fucking retarded and disproportionate.

Oh, and use this shit:







aiur55 said:


> tastes like cat urine


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## Wingchunwarrior (Jan 8, 2011)

that routine looks shit, too many isolation exercises and not introducing squats and deadlifts from the get go

I would start off with a push/pull/leg split.I don't see any problem with you starting with a split especially seeing as you have already done weights in the past.

Now a basic routine should look like this:

*push day*(chest/shoulders/triceps)

Flat bench press or dumbell flat bench press
incline flat bench press or dumbell
dips
skullcrushers
shoulder press
shrugs(for you're traps)


*pull day*(back and biceps)

deadlifts
wide grip pull ups
t bar rows or bent over rows
standard bicep curl
reverse grip curls or hammer curls(for you're forearms)

*legs*

SQUATS!!(4/5 sets)
leg press
leg extensions
calf raises

for volume of reps and how many sets, it all depends on the person and what they react to but I would start with between 8-12 and 3 sets( a part from squats), you can then later on change it.Resting period should be between 60 and 90 secs.

I would start off with this and then eventually move onto a 4 or 5 split routine as then you can roughly do about 4 exercises for bigger body parts and 3 for smaller body parts.remember always use good technique and don't let the weight drop when going down on lets say a bench press, you rip more muscle fibres on the negative part of a rep than you do on the positive.


As for putting on 20lbs, that is definitely achievable but you will achieve much faster with a proper diet

Here is some good tips for diet, coutesy of uk muscle:

Protein 4kcals per gram 

So what is protein and what does it do?

Protein is made up of amino acids. These amino acids are what our bodies require to exist, to build muscle, skin, bone, hair...the list goes on. When we eat protein our body breaks it down into amino acids and uses them as and when it needs them, for what ever it requires.

For our interests its building muscle so we need to make sure that we have an abundance of amino's to satisfy our bodies needs, so that we have enough to grow bigger!

We do this by eating quality protein sources at regular intervals. This is so that our body doesn't turn catabolic and start to break down its hard earned muscle due to not being fed regularly!! In short, if we dont eat enough protein, we shrink!!!

The amount we need to eat in each meal depends on A.. the amount of meals, and B.. the lean mass we hold. The bigger we are the more we need in a day and the more meals we eat the less we need in each meal.

Some good protein sources are

Red meat
Chicken
Fish
Eggs
Whey powders
Milk
Soy
Nuts
Beans
Lentils

Human tissue has an individual string of amino acids as do all protein sources. Some are better than others for building muscle.

Whole eggs for instance, are near perfect for this purpose. We need not worry too much about amino spectrums as beginners, as long as we are eating a variation of some or all of the above choices through the day.

Carbohydrates 4kcals per gram 

Carbs are used as an energy source for our bodies. We need energy to go about our daily lives and if in abundance, carbs give our bodies the calories it needs to grow. This energy is stored in the muscles, as well as the liver as a substance called glycogen. Its muscle glycogen that gives our muscles the energy to perform. It also is what gives them that full look. Liver glycogen is what gives our bodies the energy to live out our day to day lives.

Carbohydrates are all different. Some have a low glycemic index, whilst others are medium or high. What is the glycemic index (GI)?

The glycemic index is used to determine how quickly a particular food is absorbed and is principally used in reference to foods which are high in carbohydrates. The quicker the carb is absorbed, the shorter the burst of energy we get due to a sudden raise in blood sugar.

The slower the absorbtion, the lower the blood sugar and a long sustained amount of energy provided.

The higher the blood sugar, the more insulin the body provides to counter act that sudden raise.

So what will insulin do??

For the basic content of this beginners article, I wont go deep into insulin. Lets just say that insulin helps the uptake of all nutrients consumed. This means that while protein is stored more efficiently, so are fats and carbs. This may make a person fat, and we dont want that!!!

Although low GI carbs are a better source of energy, there are still times that we can manipulate hi GI alternatives such as before, during and after a workout. We need fast energy to train and a spike of insulin post workout PWO will obviously be handy to absorb protein when we need it most .

What happens if we eat high GI carbs all day long such as chocolates, sweets, sugary drinks?

Well it doesn't take a brain surgeon to work out that body fat may increase, but what else can go wrong??

If you think about it, high GI sugars raise blood sugar, which the body produces insulin to lower again. Now when this happens our blood sugar takes a nose dive which has the opposite effect and makes us feel tired and low. We then start to crave sugar again in order to raise those blood levels. Can you see what is happening here? Yes, we are on the slippery slope of raising and lowering our blood sugar which in turn makes us feel up and down in energy and mood! Anyone ever experienced this?? I think so!

So we can see that a long sustained release of energy is better for keeping our blood sugar stable, which is done by eating low GI carbs.

Examples of low/high GI carbohydrates are hard to put forward as there is a vary long scale of variables. The best thing to do is buy a book on GI which you can get in any good bookstore.

Alternatively you can find a GI database as well as learn more on GI at this link

The Glycemic Index

One last point regarding GI

The GI of any given food is affected by a number of other variables. Fats, fibre and protein consumed with carbs slows down the absorbtion considerably. In fact, hi GI foods will slow quite a bit if eaten with low GI foods. This leads us to the fact that its good to eat well balanced meals containing protein, fibre and fats to keep our blood sugars stable.

Fats 9kcals per gram 

Fats are also an energy source which some people prefer to carbohydrates

A further point to note is that fats will not spike insulin levels.

There are 5 different types of fats, all of which are beneficial in optimum health, some more than others.

saturated fats
polyunsaturated fats or omega 6 poly's
monounsaturated fats
trans fats*
omega 3 fish oils, a type of poly

*should be kept restricted as can lead to heart disease and cancer if taken in abundance.

Ok, again I wont confuse the issue here as it is a beginners article so I will only state that which applies to our beginners diet.

If we are using carbohydrates as our main energy fuel, we then need to keep fats to a moderate level. Although a small amount of all the above fats are needed, we as bb'ers should eat mainly monounsaturated fats i.e.
avocado pears
rapeseed oils
olive oils

and omega 3 oils
salmon
trout
mackerel
sardines
pilchards
tuna (to a lesser degree)

There are also some good omega oil blends on the market such as udos choice or Holland and Barrett optimum oil blend. Note that vegetarians cant have the fish oils that the above oils contain so flax seed oil would be a good choice for them.

The fats that come naturally in foods such as eggs and meats are ok as long as they are not over eaten.....the only one that possibly could be over eaten would be eggs.

If you are using fats as the main source of energy then more than moderate amounts can be consumed as long as carbohydrates are kept down somewhat.

So what should I use as my main source of fuel for energy?? 

This is a complicated question as we are all so different. There are technical computerised machines which measure our co2 levels that can determine our exact ratios of fats and carbohydrates needed as an individual but again, this is more advanced than we need to concern ourselves with as beginners.

I feel that trial and error is the best way to learn about our bodies and so what better than to try all the options for a period of X amount of time and see what suits us best?

Low fat, high carbs
Low carbs, high fat
Even a mix of the two (my favourite option)

I feel that if the low/zero carb, high fat route is the one you wish to follow then at least one carb meal a day is needed. Alternatively, some go for a "clean carb up" day once a week, finding it good to replenish depleted glycogen stores.

The ratios we eat will effect the amount of meals necesary in any given day. We already know fats and fibre slows the absorbtion of carbs we eat, but it also slows the whole meal down. So if we eat high fat and low carbs, we need not eat much more than 3 or 4 meals a day (as long as sufficient protein is present). On the other end of the sclae a high carb, low fat meal requires as many as 6-8 meals with moderate protein in each portion.

Other key things to remember when formulating our diets are 

To drink plenty of fluids a day (2-3 litres)
Keeping hydrated is a must for optimum performance as an athlete as well as keeping in good health.

And eat plenty of fibre
Fibre comes naturally in countless foods but fruit, veg , nuts, beans and pulses are some of the best sources of fibre and some or all of the above should be incorporated daily in your nutrition plan.

An example daily food intake would look something like this

Meal 1
whole eggs
oats 

Meal 2
chicken
basmati rice
fruit

Meal 3
tuna
salad
olive/flax oil
nuts

Meal 4
Baked beans
wholemeal toast
serving of whey

Meal 5 PWO
whey in water
glucose powder OR
maltodextrine powder

Meal 6
steak
jacket potato
green veg

So now we know what to eat and when to eat it, how much do we need to consume for optimum growth with minimum body fat BF?

Some bb'ers prefer to eat what ever they can get their hands on "if it aint nailed down then eat it!!" I have heard some say before. This can be an effective way of eating if you want sheer bulk, but has a few drawbacks.

1 Its very easy to gain a shed load of body fat

2 sometimes a person may eat too much of the wrong types of foods which can hinder their gains. For example, eating KFC all day long is great for protein and fat, but neglects carbohydrates.

Also eating food from the bakery down the street will fill you up on plenty of carbs and fat, but the protein will be lacking!!

So what do we do? How do we calculate our intake?

First off we need to know how much of each macronutrient is in the foods we eat. Again, any good bookstore will have a nutrition guide, or hit this link

Nutrition facts, calories in food, labels, nutritional information and analysis &ndash; NutritionData.com

Next we need to work out our calorie requirements and I must credit the next section to J. Beradi as it is an extract from his Massive Eating Article.....







Step #1: Resting Metabolic Rate 

Resting metabolic rate (RMR) is the energy it costs the body to basically keep alive. This doesn't include the costs of getting your butt out of bed and moving around; those numbers are calculated in later. Although you might not guess it, about 50 to 70 percent of your entire day's calorie expenditure is a result of the RMR. So, let's figure out your RMR right now. 


Determining RMR: 

To start off with, you need to take your body weight in pounds and convert it to kilograms. (International readers, please bear with us silly non-metric Americans for a moment.) This is a simple conversion. Just divide your body weight by 2.2. 

Next you take your percent of fat and multiply it by your body weight (which is now in kilograms). This will give you your fat mass (FM) in kilograms. Next simply subtract this number from your total weight in kilograms and you'll have your fat free mass (FFM) in kilograms. 

Before we go on, why don't we try this out on me. Since I'm an athlete with a body weight of 200lbs at 5% body fat, I'd take my total body mass and divide it by 2.2: 

Total body mass in kilograms = 200lbs / 2.2 = 91 kg 

Next I'd multiply this kilogram number (91 kg) by my percent of body fat. Remember, percents are really decimals so 5% equals 0.05, 12% bodyfat will be .12 etc. 

Fat Mass = 91kg x 0.05 = 4.55kg FM 

Next I subtract this fat mass number (4.55 kg) from my total body mass (91kg): 

Fat Free Mass = 91kg - 4.55kg = 86.45kg 

Therefore my fat free mass is 86.45 kilograms. From that I can determine my RMR. The formula for RMR is as follows: 

Resting Metabolic Rate for Athletes (in calories per day) = 500 + 22 x fat free mass (in kilograms). 

Again, for me, I'd multiply 22 times my fat free mass and add 500 to that number as shown below: 

RMR= 22 x 86.45 + 500 = 2402 

Therefore my resting metabolic rate is about 2400 calories per day. Everyone have their RMR figured out? Good, let's move on. 


Step #2: Cost of Activity 

The Cost of Activity represents how many calories are required to move your butt around during the day. This includes the cost of walking out to your car, scraping the ice off the damn thing, driving to work, pinching the secretary's ass, going to lunch with the boys, and of course, training after work. These factors make up about 20 to 40% of your daily caloric intake based on your activity level. So let's figure out your costs of activity. I'll use myself as an example again. 


Determining Activity Costs: 

Cost of Daily Activity is equal to the RMR you calculated above multiplied by an activity factor that fits your daily routine. I've listed some common activity factors below: 

Activity Factors: 

1.2-1.3 for Very Light (bed rest) 

1.5-1.6 for Light (office work/watching TV) 

1.6-1.7 for Moderate (some activity during day) 

1.9-2.1 for Heavy (labour type work) 

Note: Don't consider your daily workout when choosing a number. We'll do that later. 

With this information we can get back to determining my calorie needs. Since I work at a university, most of my day is pretty sedentary. Even though I run back and forth between the lab and classes, I've selected 1.6 as my activity factor. Therefore the amount of calories it takes to breathe and move around during the day is about 3800 calories as shown below: 

RMR x Activity Factor = 2400 calories x 1.6 = 3800 calories 


Costs of Exercise Activity: 

Next, we need to determine how many calories your exercise activity burns so that we can factor this into the totals. Exercise activity can be calculated simply by multiplying your total body mass in kilograms (as calculated above) by the duration of your exercise (in hours). Then you'd multiply that number by the MET value of exercise as listed below. (MET or metabolic equivalent, is simply a way of expressing the rate of energy expenditure from a given physical activity.) 

MET values for common activities: 

high impact aerobics&#8230; 7 
low impact aerobics&#8230; 5 

high intensity cycling&#8230; 12 
low intensity cycling&#8230; 3 

high intensity walking - 6.5 
low intensity walking - 2.5 

high intensity running&#8230; 18 
low intensity running&#8230; 7 

circuit-type training&#8230; 8 
intense free weight lifting&#8230; 6 
moderate machine training&#8230; 3 

So here's the formula: 

Cost of Exercise Activity = Body Mass (in kg) x Duration (in hours) x MET value 

And here's how I calculate it for myself: 

Exercise Expenditure for weights = 6 METS X 91kg x 1.5 hours = 819 calories 

Exercise Expenditure for cardio = 3 METS X 91 kg x .5 hours = 137 calories 

Add these two together and I burn 956 total calories during one of my training sessions. 

Since my training includes about 90 minutes of intense free weight training and 30 minutes of low intensity bicycling (four times per week), my exercise energy expenditure might be as high as 1000 calories per training day! 

The next step is to add this exercise number to the number you generated when multiplying your RMR by your activity factor (3800 calories per day in my case). 

So 3800 calories + about 1000 calories = a whopping 4800 calories per day! And we're not done yet! (Note: I rounded 956 up to 1000 for the sake of simplicity. If you're a thin guy trying to gain muscle, it's better to round up anyway than to round down.) 


Step #3: Thermic Effect of Food 

TEF is the amount of calories that it takes your body to digest, absorb, and metabolise your ingested food intake. This makes up about 5 to 15% of your total daily calorie expenditure. Since the metabolic rate is elevated via this mechanism 10 to 15% for one to four hours after a meal, the more meals you eat per day, the faster your metabolic rate will be. This is a good thing, though. It's far better to keep the metabolism high and eat above that level, than to allow the metabolism to slow down by eating infrequently. Protein tends to increase TEF to a rate double that of carbs and almost triple that of fats so that's one of the reasons why I'm a big fan of protein meals. 


Determining the Thermic Effect of Food: 

To determine the TEF, you need to multiply your original RMR value (2400 in my case) by 0.10 for a moderate protein diet or 0.15 for a high protein diet. So this is what the formula looks like: 

TEF = RMR x 0.10 for moderate protein diet (1 gram per pound of bodyweight) 

TEF = RMR x 0.15 for high protein diet (more than 1 gram per pound of bodyweight) 

Since I eat a very high protein diet (about 350 to 400 grams per day), I use the 0.15 factor and my TEF is about 360 calories per day as displayed by the calculation below: 

Thermic Effect of Food = 2400 calories x 0.15 = 360 calories per day 

Now add that to your calorie total. 


Step #4: Adaptive Thermogenesis 

I like to call Adaptive Thermogenesis the "X factor" because we just aren't sure how much it can contribute to daily caloric needs. Some have predicted that it can either increase daily needs by 10% or even decrease daily needs by 10%. Because it's still a mystery, we typically don't factor it into the equation. 

Just for interest's sake, one factor included in the "X factor" is unconscious or spontaneous activity. Some people, when overfed, get hyper and increase their spontaneous activity and even have been known to be "fidgety." Others just get sleepy when overfed &#8212; obviously the fidgets will be burning more calories that the sleepy ones. 

Other factors include hormone responses to feeding, training, and drugs, hormone sensitivity (insulin, thyroid, etc), stress (dramatically increases metabolic rate) or temperature induced metabolic changes (cold weather induces increased metabolic activity and heat production). 

With all that said, you don't need to do any math on this part or fiddle with your calorie total. This is just something to keep in mind. 


Step #5: Putting it all together 

Okay, so how many damn calories do you need to consume each and every day? Well, adding up RMR plus activity factor (3800 calories in my case), cost of weight training (819 calories), cost of cardio (137 calories), and TEF (360 calories), we get a grand total of about 5116 calories! (Remember, that's just my total. You'll get a different number.) 

Now that's a lot of food! And I must eat this each and every day when I want to gain weight. Are you surprised at how many calories I need? Most people are. So the next time you complain that you're "eating all day and can't gain a pound" you'd better realistically evaluate how much you're really eating. If you're not gaining a pound, then you're falling short on calories. 






Thank you John....Back to me now.

So this may seem like a lot of food and you may wonder where you will put it all. We must remember that the above article is only an example and can be modified a little. For instance there are a lot of whey powders, meal replacements MRP and weight gainer drinks available. These are very good for getting in those extra few kcals. Maybe one can eat 3-4 whole food meals and 2-3 liquid meals. That makes it a little easier doesn't it?

What if I am still struggling?

Well we can build up to this massive amount of food slowly. Start by eating half to two thirds of the suggested total calories. Once you can easily manage that, add one more meal, or up the kcals a little in your existing meals.

How ever you do it, you will get there in the end.

There will be some days that we just cant stomach all the food and other days, we will be as hungry as a horse...thats bodybuilding guys 

So to summarise

Eat plenty of protein, every 2-3 hours. I suggest 1.5-2g per approximate LB of lean mass throughout the day.

Eat the rest of your calories from low GI carbohydrates and/or quality fats (both in the ratios that you have chosen)

Drink plenty of fluids.

Eat lots of fibrous foods like vegetables and fruit

Work out your individual calorie requirements and devise a well balanced food plan using correct nutrient data/guide.



As for supplements, you're not gonna put on 20lbs on because of creatine, you're gonna put that on because you have a varied diet.Supplements SUPPLEMENT your food, so if you;re getting enough protein,carbs, fat and calories then you don't need supplements,if you're eating lots of red meat meat then you don't need creatine.However it is very difficult to get all the macronutrients needed from food so this is where supplements come in handy.The first you should look at is protein powders but like I said if you have enough protein in you're diet you don't need it(unlikely) so get a protein powder.Look in to others like creatine,amino acids,carbs.multivitamins and efas if you're diet is lacking in those things

hope this helps


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## MaxOfMetal (Jan 8, 2011)

^^^


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## MikeH (Jan 8, 2011)

Thanks for the book, man. 

Seriously, thank you. I really appreciate it.


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## josh pelican (Jan 8, 2011)

Talk to JeffFromMtl. He said he isn't a gym junkie, but that dude looks huge.


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## MikeH (Jan 10, 2011)

Just came back from the first day. Felt great to be lifting again. Only drank water today and had a lot of chicken, and peanut butter sandwiches.  Mostly worked on upper body today. Wednesday will be legs and shoulders.


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## The Reverend (Jan 10, 2011)

You know, I think I'm going to start working out again, too. It's strange, being 22 and bitching about how much better I used to look/feel.


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## Revan132 (Jan 10, 2011)

Ibz_rg said:


> Just came back from the first day. Felt great to be lifting again. Only drank water today and had a lot of chicken, and peanut butter sandwiches.  Mostly worked on upper body today. Wednesday will be legs and shoulders.



The worst isn't the first day. It's the day after the first day.


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## JeffFromMtl (Jan 10, 2011)

josh pelican said:


> Talk to JeffFromMtl. He said he isn't a gym junkie, but that dude looks huge.



 I'm really not _huge_ though! Maybe more from a simply athletic standpoint, but I certainly wouldn't be mistaken for a bodyduilder!
Although I have been in the gym a lot more recently, but more for cardio purposes, as I plan on getting back into soccer at a competitive level. I played AA until I was 17, then I quit cuz I thought playing in bands was more fun  So while I AM putting on muscle mass, 25 minutes out of my 1-hour (or so) workout is cardio. I know a thing or two about eating the right things, but Wingchunwarrior really has his shit down. That one post shames any input I could possibly offer, so anyone interested in getting into shape need look no further than his post.


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## Wingchunwarrior (Jan 10, 2011)

> Thanks for the book, man.
> 
> Seriously, thank you. I really appreciate it.



no probs dude need anymore info just say



> I'm really not huge though! Maybe more from a simply athletic standpoint, but I certainly wouldn't be mistaken for a bodyduilder!
> Although I have been in the gym a lot more recently, but more for cardio purposes, as I plan on getting back into soccer at a competitive level. I played AA until I was 17, then I quit cuz I thought playing in bands was more fun So while I AM putting on muscle mass, 25 minutes out of my 1-hour (or so) workout is cardio. I know a thing or two about eating the right things, but Wingchunwarrior really has his shit down. That one post shames any input I could possibly offer, so anyone interested in getting into shape need look no further than his post.



thanks man the internet works wonders,its just the basics you can't really stray away from it too much, one thing I would say about my post and my views is never shun bodybuilding(basic) and powerlifting training, just cos you don't want to look like a bb or pl doesn't mean you shouldn't listen to these programmes, I see this way too much, people saying "oh I don't want to look like a bodybuilder" or " don't wanna be too big" and it makes me laugh, because they would never get to that level of muscular development

oh and ibz rg here is a great article on creatine and common disbeliefs regarding caffeine and creatine and the best way to take creatine:

A 5:00 am Rendezvous
"It's 5:00 A.M. already? Who practices at this time?" Well, for some reason or another, rowers do. And we know this because we work with several rowing teams here in Ontario. And it is not only rowers that greet the sun head on. We also know quite a few bodybuilders who have lives outside the gym. Many of them rise and shine while we're still in bed dreaming about the girl from the Horny Goat Weed ad.

Regardless of your sport, if you typically start your day off in the wee hours, you probably have only one friend this early. And his name is Mr. Coffee. If you workout, take supplements, and spend enough time with Mr. Coffee, though, you'll eventually hear something like this: "Hey, aren't you taking creatine? You shouldn't be drinking coffee". "I shouldn't?" you may ask. "No, I heard that the coffee somehow ruins the absorption of the creatine". To which you may reply, "But I love what creatine is doing for my training. I love my coffee too. Is caffeine really having a negative impact on my training by nullifying the benefits of the creatine supplementation? Should I give one up?"

These are all good questions. Questions we intend to address in this article. And after putting the creatine and caffeine issue to bed, we hope to discuss some creatine combinations that may lead to optimal results for creatine supplementation. 

Creatine and Caffeine&#8230;The Forbidden Combination?

The creatine and caffeine issue has been discussed pretty extensively in both the athletic and scientific communities. However, most people don't even know why such a debate exists. What exactly is the concern? Well let's talk a little history.

The creatine and caffeine debate started about four years ago when one single scientific study concluded that "caffeine counteracts the effects of a creatine loaded muscle" (1). This statement was shocking because the purpose of the study was to see if the two agents could work together to increase exercise performance, not to see if they would interfere with each other. Researchers and athletes have long known that caffeine and creatine independently improve performance so a combination would be the next logical step. 

Creatine works on the phosphocreatine and ATP systems while possibly buffering exercise produced hydrogen protons (acid), while caffeine demonstrates a powerful stimulation for the release of epinephrine. So theoretically, one could take both to gain more of a performance edge. But this study showed that maybe they don't work together. Even further, it showed that maybe they interfere with each other. So if this is the case and caffeine does counteract the effect of a creatine loaded muscle then there is no debate. The answer is to avoid consuming beverages that contain caffeine if you want your money spent on creatine to work for you. 

But as usually is the case, things are not so simple. Although some individuals avoid this combination like the plague, we don't think this is necessary. So while you're here, go ahead and grab a cup of coffee. Then add your desired amount of crystals - creatine, not sugar; if you haven't already had your dose for the day. Based on further scientific data and scrutiny, you just might not have to give either one up. 



A Study's Only As Good As It's Design

When looking back at the previously mentioned study, some glaring problems are evident. And these problems explain our disbelief of the conclusions. First, the study utilized a crossover design. In a crossover design, one group of lifters first takes creatine and then switches over to placebo a few weeks later. The other group first takes placebo then switches over to creatine a few weeks later. During each treatment performance tests are done. This design is a great one in most cases because researchers don't have to compare two different groups of guys, one group of lifters on creatine vs one group of different lifters on placebo. In this design, the researchers can compare the same athletes (on creatine) to themselves (on placebo) a few weeks later. 

Although this is typically a great study design, when a supplement has lasting effects, a long period has to separate the time between treatments. If not, the effects of creatine will still be around when the subjects are on placebo. And that's the problem with this study. In this design, the researchers only allowed 3 weeks between creatine/caffeine and placebo. We know that this is too short of a time between treatments to allow the study participant to "return to normal". Subsequent studies have shown repeatedly that the washout period for creatine supplementation is a minimum of four weeks, it may be even be longer. So one of the take-home messages of this article is that creatine, once loaded into the muscle, takes about 4-6 weeks or more to be eliminated (2). If this is the case, we hope you realize the fact that since performance tests were conducted, the treatments could have affected both testing periods. This is a great way to ensure that the data from a study is meaningless. 

Another important factor to consider in all of this is diet. Creatine containing foods, like steak and fish, may provide enough creatine to effectively maintain your initial loading. What we mean here is that after you load up for a week, you may be able to maintain a creatine-loaded state with diet alone. Many of you have heard of "maintenance doses" of creatine that usually consist of around 5 grams per day. These may be unnecessary. Since the combination of a typical non-vegetarian diet and your natural production of creatine provides about 2 grams of creatine per day, you only need an additional 2 or 3 grams per day from food to stay loaded. The research shows that diets high in red meat (1.5 or 2 lbs per day) can provide this (2).But just to be safe, we typically recommend "reloading" every few months however as you may gradually lose that super-loaded state over time. 

Getting back to the science of the creatine and caffeine thing, if subjects remain loaded by dietary means, a crossover study may never give good results. Another example of this is evident in another creatine and caffeine study in scientific literature (3). This crossover study also showed no performance differences between groups that took creatine and caffeine together and those on placebo. But again, the washout problem rears its ugly head. This study only utilized a one-week washout period between the subject cross-over. We cannot really gain any information from this study in terms of creatine and caffeine interactions. This short washout again may have allowed the subjects to be creatine loaded throughout the testing even when they were performing as the placebo group. 

Although the two studies seem to run counter to our advice to load your coffee up with creatine powder, I hope that you can see that a study is only as good as it's design. In addition, our argument gains some support from the following. In both studies, the loading of muscle with creatine was not hindered by caffeine ingestion. So if the muscle is loaded with creatine, then it should be able to perform like other creatine-loaded muscles or simply put, better. The only limiting factor then in these studies is the design.
One argument that other side proposes to justify their conclusions is that perhaps the coffee caused diuresis (water loss) and that inhibited the performance gain. Since it is well-know that dehydrated muscles perform very poorly and have lower protein synthetic rates than normally hydrated muscle, some have argued that maybe the coffee negated the effects of creatine due to dehydration (4). Since there is no data on this, it is merely speculation. But the most practical answer is as follows. Ask yourself if you find yourself being constantly dehydrated when you consume coffee. If the answer is no, then you know that you are ok on this front. 

Although the debate seems pretty even at this point, the real clincher for our side is this. In many prior studies showing that creatine does increase performance and muscle mass, creatine was administered with&#8230;you guessed it&#8230;good old coffee or tea. Since creatine is very hard to dissolve in regular room temperature beverages, researchers had been giving creatine in warm coffee and tea to ensure dissolution of the powder and to mask the taste. Also this dissolution makes taking creatine orally easier on subjects and their digestive systems. Since there was a demonstrated effect of creatine in these studies, the coffee must not have hindered the effects of the creatine.

Although, we are pretty convinced that coffee will probably not lead to a huge reduction in the effectiveness of creatine supplementation, we have decided to go ahead and do a definitive study. In collaboration with our lab mates and lab director at the University of Western Ontario, we plan to look at the effects of creatine, creatine plus caffeine, creatine plus coffee, and placebo. This study should, uhm, dissolve this debate once and for all. Until then, we won't be kicking Mr Coffee or Mr Creatine out of our lives just yet. 

Creatine - Potent Combinations

Although the first part of this article focused on the fact that taking creatine and caffeine together probably wont negatively effect your gains from creatine, here we want to talk about what can be combined with creatine to promote even greater gains. Since its introduction, creatine popularity has surged. Even with the minor discomforts associated with powdered creatine monohydrate intake such as minor gas, abdominal distention, and diarrhea, many athletes still take creatine for its muscle building and performance enhancing effects. But what if there was a way to decrease this discomfort? There may be. The answer lies in a creatine combination.

Another issue with creatine supplementation is the fact that some individuals respond very well while others do not. This may have something to do with initial creatine levels when starting a creatine cycle or it may have to do with enhanced or impaired creatine uptake in certain individuals. So what if there was a way to increase creatine uptake into the muscle to potentially enhance uptake in both responders and non-responders? Again, a creatine combination may take care of this as well.

Creatine and Solubility

If you've taken creatine, you are probably well aware of the fact that trying to dissolve creatine in regular fluid is useless. You'd be more likely to fit an elephant through a key hole. It's just not going to happen. As a result of this poor solubility, when the creatine gets to your gastrointestinal tract, the body tries to solubilize it. Why? Because nutrients cannot be absorbed if not solubilized or dissolved in a solution. They will just sit around in the pit of your stomach in powder form and eventually pass right out of you. So what the body does to remedy this is to suck fluids out of the cells of the digestive organs in order to provide enough fluid to dissolve the creatine. But what then happens is that all this fluid that's sucked into the GI tract needs to quickly be eliminated and this leads to diarrhea. So in solubilizing your creatine, the GI causes some nasty bathroom situations. Not to mention the fact that a lot of the creatine is lost during such porcelain episodes.

So what are some solutions? The first is to dissolve your creatine in a warm beverage. By doing so, due to the laws of thermodynamics, the creatine is solubilized. And when consumed, it can be absorbed much more effectively without all the GI distress. This is where the creatine coffee debate started as most guys just dumped the creatine into the coffee for convenience sake. Warm coffee, tea, or even just warm water will do just fine.

The second solution is liquid creatine. Many companies have developed liquid creatine products that contain some type of glycerin or carbohydrate-like substance to solubilize the creatine. Although there is no good data to suggest that these products are better than regular creatine, theoretically they could help absorption. This would allow for less GI stress and lower doses. But although theoretically this does make sense, creatine tends to be unstable in liquid if suspended for too long. This is because the creatine can react with the water molecules to degrade into creatinine, a useless metabolite that is simply excreted from the body. With all the brilliant chemists in this industry, we are certain that this problem can be solved. In fact, we've seen some yet unpublished data to suggest that there are quite a few liquid creatine products out there that remain stable in solution for long periods of time. Our suggestion would be to try only liquid creatine products from reputable well-established companies with a good history of quality control.

The Insulin-Creatine Connection

It is well known that although insulin is not necessary for creatine uptake, supraphysiologic hyperinsulinemia (high blood insulin well above the normal insulin levels) can help to drive more creatine into the muscle. So by jacking up insulin levels, more creatine can be delivered to the muscle in most cases. But remember, we said that these levels have to be supraphysiolgic. So just a little jump in insulin probably won't help. You need a massive influx of insulin. How can this be achieved?

There are a few ways to spike insulin. The first is the ingestion of lots of carbohydrates. In the original studies, a whopping dose of 93 grams of glucose was used to jack insulin levels way up into the supraphysiologic range and increase creatine uptake into the muscle (5). That's a lot of sugar. But that's what it took to enhance the creatine uptake. So if you're taking in less carbohydrate than this in an attempt to increase creatine uptake or your carbs have a low glycemic index, you're probably not getting insulin levels high enough to make a difference. 

Now we don't know about you, but 93 grams of sugar is quite a bit too much sugar for us. Especially when taken multiple times per day during a loading phase. So should this concept be abandoned? No way. There are other ways besides high carbohydrate intake to get insulin levels high enough to make a difference in creatine uptake. First, it is well known that a meal containing carbohydrates and protein generates a much better insulin response than carbohydrates alone. How much better? Well although it depends on the protein and carb sources, it appears that while 100 grams of carbs leads to a 300-500% increase in blood insulin and 64 grams of protein leads to a 100-200% increase in blood insulin, the combination of the two leads to a 600-800% increase (6,7). Now that's supraphysiologic! 

So it appears that a protein and carbohydrate combo might be best at increasing blood insulin and this may translate into better creatine uptake. A recent study confirms that indeed a meal containing 50 grams of protein and 50 grams of carbs can lead to identical increases of insulin and creatine uptake as 100g of carbs. (8). The beauty of this strategy is that you don't have to consume as much sugar if protein is part of the meal. 


Another strategy for increasing insulin release and creatine uptake while at the same time minimizing the need for huge meals would be to incorporate specific amino acids or insulin secretagogues into your meal. Although this topic is beyond the scope of this article, several studies have shown that the inclusion of insulin secretagogues can lead to huge increases in insulin. In one study, athletes consuming 168 grams of carbs in 60 minutes had insulin increases of about 900% while the athletes consuming 112 grams of carbs, 56 grams of protein, and a few specific insulin secretory amino acids had insulin increases of about 1700% (9). That's almost double an already supraphysiological level of insulin. 

The point of discussing this research is not to recommend the consumption of hundreds of grams of carbs and protein to enhance creatine uptake. But rather, the point is to recognize that a combination product containing moderate amounts of protein, carbs, and certain insulin stimulatory nutrients, may be the future of creatine uptake technology.

Making Your Creatine Work For You

In conclusion, there are a number of ways to get the most out of your creatine supplementation. By minimizing discomfort and maximizing uptake, one can turn a great supplement into something truly exceptional. Creatine alone can increase muscle mass, muscle strength, and potentially athletic performance. The inclusion of carbs and protein with your creatine however might even lead to greater benefit. In addition, the use of liquid creatine may allow for lower effective doses of creatine and a much more pleasant intenstinal experience. And by the way, don't let Mr. Coffee collect dust while cycling creatine. That's no way to treat an old friend.




EDIT: oh and sorry for the huge posts but hopefully you can make use of them


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## Winspear (Jan 11, 2011)

I haven't had time to read through the whole thread, but from my experience it's all in the food. 
I've been attempting to get bigger for over 2 years (5'9" 145lbs), and until September 2010 was usually training 3-4 times a week. Eating decently every day - 3 good meals and a protein shake. I didn't have any knowledge about nutrition though, and can now see I wasn't eating enough. My strength continued to increase slowly but I never put on weight.

When I came to uni in September I went up to 5 meals and 3 protein shakes a day (3000 calories, 220g protein) and started training 2 days on 1 day off. In these 4 months I have gained 15lbs, barely any fat as far as I can tell, and am putting weights up every week.


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## dbuk01 (Feb 11, 2011)

Ibz_rg said:


> So throughout my first two years of high school, I played baseball. Upon doing this, lifting weights was a requirement. Every practice we would lift for an hour. During this time, I put on about 10 lbs. of muscle, which really boosted my self-confidence. 10 lbs. seems so little, but when you only weigh 135 to begin with, it's a good step.  But after that, I basically just got lazy as all hell and went back to being a scrawny kid again. So I've decided to get back into lifting, but making 20 lbs. my goal. Not 20 lbs. of pure muscle, per se. Just 20 lbs. more of weight. I'm 5'10" and 135, so I'm not exactly beefy. As of Monday, I will begin a 12 week regimen in the weight room as shown here:
> 12 Week Beginners Training Routine | Muscle & Strength
> 
> It states two nonconsecutive days a week, but I'll be doing 3; Monday, Wednesday, Friday. Does anyone have some helpful tips aside from what's listed? I know I'll certainly have to decrease the soda and increase the water, but I generally eat pretty well. I love salads and chicken, and generally tend to eat about 4 meals including each per week. Actually, I eat chicken almost every day.  Plus I'm straight edge, so no smoking or drinking has been, nor will be had, so I'm good on that. I'm also considering buying some Creatine to help with the mass.
> ...




Sounds good, make sure your deadlifting, squatting, benching, doing weighted dips/pullups etc all the good mass building exercises..

As for creatine, I've tried monohydrate a few times and it didn't do much more than bloat me but I have been using the AAEFX Krealkalyn for months now and thats given very good results, also much cheaper!

At the end of the day though its the eating thats gunna build you so make sure you worry about that first then supplements!

Dan


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