# Nergal VS Christians!!!! (Pro-Nergal)



## Riffer (Mar 11, 2010)

So Nergal ripped up a Bible  now he faces 2 years in prison possibly. LAME!!!
BEHEMOTH?S Frontman Formally Charged for Bible Destruction | Fueds | Metal Injection

EDIT: Might be in wrong section, I'm not sure.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Mar 11, 2010)

They should just stick to america.


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## ivancic1al (Mar 11, 2010)

man that's ridiculous....i'm catholic, granted, a very liberal catholic, and sometimes, i just shake my head and ask, wtf are you guys doing? every time they try and sue/imprison someone for what in this country would be freedom of speech, i just get pissed off and somewhat embarrassed to be affiliated with the church. good luck nergal!


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

On one hand I think doing something that may be considered offensive as a figure of admiration by some people, is a foolish thing, however I also advocate freedom of speech and it would be a shame to see his musical career stalled by a jail sentence.

Then, he did break the law which however way you spin it, is breaking the law. I guess I'm sorta half and half.


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## Evil7 (Mar 11, 2010)

wow 2 years for ripping some fucking paper!!!
no wonder the pope hides behind thick bullett proof glass...

I mean.... fuck ..... isnt it the most printed book in existance?
Im sure there's a back up somewhere...


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## Customisbetter (Mar 11, 2010)

OK this is in Poland. I thought this was in America and was about to freak the fuck out.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)

Hope Nergal stays out of trouble.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

Racist Laws FTMFL


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## davidian29 (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm a christian(though, "free-form") and as Nergal himself stated, it is part of his artistic license. The majority may not be happy with it but at the end of the day he's a very well educated grown man expressing his thoughts through the medium hes chosen. The fact that this is 3 years after said incident is also ridiculous, and I believe it's probably to try and make an example of him for the growing numbers of similar bands in Poland and the surrounding areas.

With that said, I'm a huge Nergal fan. He's said before that what he truly hates is organized religion not really the idea of the religion. He uses satan as a metaphor for rebelling against organized religion as he did God.

Sorry if this was a little preachy which would be funny considering the topic  Anyway, good luck to him!


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

It's just a book. I don't care if you rip up my favourite book, because it's a goddamn BOOK. Nothing in it is proven, the stories are far more barbaric and amoral than ANYTHING Nergal could EVER do, and...did I mention it's JUST A BOOK? This is moronic, it shouldn't even be news.


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## lucasreis (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm roman catholic but I think it's FUCKING RIDICULOUS to arrest someone for ripping a bible. This sucks, really.


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## SerratedSkies (Mar 11, 2010)

Let's treat this situation really hood-like and airbrush "Free Nergal" on a long ass white T. Maybe even film one of those music videos that comes after the real music video. DMX did it one time, it was hard.

Seriously, I'm a huge Behemoth fan, and have been for years. Part of the reason I love them so much is because they were never stuck on being entirely anit-christian (entirely is a tough word... maybe they're 80% anti-christian, 20% story tellers) but they never bitched out. Every time I see Nergal rip up a bible live, I get goosebumps. Freedom of speach son, fuck the haters.


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## Rick (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm with Ross on this one.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 11, 2010)

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## scottro202 (Mar 11, 2010)

As a more-or-less Christian, I feel that's ridiculous. Not the ripping of the Bible, I really couldn't care less about that, but the fact he gets 2 years in jail for that. 

On the other hand, it is apparently the law there, so I guess my problem is more with the law itself that says you can go to jail for ripping a bible moreso than anything.


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## Hollowman (Mar 11, 2010)

Who cares, it's a BOOK nobody cares when they ban books or when the religious sects do book burnings, so why give him 2 years in jail.none of the mentioned have had to serve time.


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## JohnIce (Mar 11, 2010)

Ridiculous. These politics belong in the middle ages. I could possibly understand this if he was insulting/discriminating against a minority. For example, saying we should destroy all homosexuals or jews or whatever, that is a criminal offense in Sweden. However, opposing the majority and being charged for it, that's not ok. That's Soviet thinking right there.


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## ry_z (Mar 11, 2010)

Evil7 said:


> wow 2 years for ripping some fucking paper!!!
> 
> ...
> 
> ...



This. Regardless of what anyone may think of its content, the Bible is a _book._ A book of which an estimated 2.5 to 6 *billion* copies have been printed. It's made of wood, for fuck's sake.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

ry_z said:


> This. Regardless of what anyone may think of its content, the Bible is a _book._ A book of which an estimated 2.5 to 6 *billion* copies have been printed. It's made of wood, for fuck's sake.



It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive and broke the law. Granted, their sentence is heavy, but he is still in the wrong in my opinion. Theres enough tension in this world between races and religions without people making it worse.


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## Evil7 (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive and broke the law. Granted, their sentence is heavy, but he is still in the wrong in my opinion. Theres enough tension in this world between races and religions without people making it worse.


Organized religion created most of the tension/war/death in this world.
Someone ripping up a book harms  noone.
edit... Religion is a cult where people feed off eachother and judge others by what their religion views as right and wrong. This leads to a "gang" metality of attacking others for not being in the gang and following the gangs rules...


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

Religion doesn't need to be defended; it's not proven, there's nothing behind it, it's empty. And that brings me back to that...it's a BOOK. There's more important things to arrest people for, for Christ's sake

PRECISELY Evil7. Faith has caused utter suffering across the world, and it just doesn't stop. All of it's based on ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, which is the most SICKENING part. Getting mad at someone for ripping up a storybook is just fucking childish and stupid.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

Evil7 said:


> Organized religion created most of the tension/war/death in this world.
> Someone ripping up a book harms noone.



No, the way people behave towards other races and religions causes the tension. In this case, one person has acted offensively towards another religion, theres your tension. I am not Christian, faaaaaaaar from it, but I can see how this would offend people. 


I'm not saying either side is right, but Nergal was pretty tasteless in what he did. If you disagree with someones beliefs, fine, but act resonably about it, don't descrate things that are holy to them. Its out of order.


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## blister7321 (Mar 11, 2010)

(i piss on priests) jk im totally on nergals side here 666%


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## ry_z (Mar 11, 2010)

Entirely putting aside the legal question for the moment:



vampiregenocide said:


> It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive...



To put it bluntly - so what?

I ask this not specifically because of a dislike of Christianity, but in defense of free speech. (Nergal's action certainly counts as speech, in this context. It was merely symbolic - he didn't burn a historic church or something like that, which would be indefensible.)

*People must not have the right not to be offended.* Otherwise, free speech is impossible.


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## JohnIce (Mar 11, 2010)

Indeed. I've never seen atheists fighting a war to support their conviction, whereas the number of religious wars that have happened and still happen today are too many to count. To me, standing against something that has been proved to be severly destructive to mankind, should be fully understandable. For example, if people can criticize the use of motor vehicles, poor garbage handling or smoking or whatever, they should have the exact same right to criticize religion.

This is like saying you can't scrap a car because it's offensive to the oil companies, and should be punished by 2 years in prison.

- edit - For what it's worth, I agree that this was a tasteless and disrespectful act, but he doesn't deserve prison for it. He didn't hurt anyone. I say let your opinions show anyway you want, as long as you don't physically harm anyone.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

Since when did God need the Polish government to punish people for him and decide what is and what's not offensive to thier religion?

LOL


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

ry_z said:


> Entirely putting aside the legal question for the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Too many abuse the right of free speech. As I said, if he had said his opinions in a respectable way, then this would be a different story. But he hasn't, he has used his freedom of speech and abused that right to upset people. Now the Church does it too, and thats wrong also. 

Free speech is possible, but then by this logic, I'm allowed to spout whatever shit I want free of persecution, and I'm sorry but people should be accountable for what they say or do.


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## SerratedSkies (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive and broke the law. Granted, their sentence is heavy, but he is still in the wrong in my opinion. Theres enough tension in this world between races and religions without people making it worse.


 

I always compare the bible to Star Wars. In this case, I will be comparing the bible to Star Wars.

To destroy a story is rather simple, but obviously there are certain legacies carried on. When George Lucas created "Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace", he was in Nergal's position; in front of a large crowd of people, ripping and shitting all over a great fictional story. There are enough people so stuck up on Star Wars in this world, that it is now "slightly" recognized as a religion. People are in love with the tales of the Skywalkers, the Wookies, and even those little bastard Ewoks on Endore. When Episode 1 was released in theaters, millions of devout "Jedi" (or however the fuck I'm supposed to phrase that) were completely crushed.

Now, did Geroge Lucas serve two years in jail for ripping apart his bible on his stage at his show? No. The crime will forever go unpunished... but wait... he can't serve jail time... it's a fictional story! Not to mention his own story, but let's not get into that. Now, you might hate me for insulting the bible in these two paragraphs, but mind you, Jesus and pals have enough proof of their existance as a T16 shooting womprats in Tatuine.

This has been another installment of Serrated Skies' "Come on dude, Star Wars was so much better."


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## Riffer (Mar 11, 2010)

Should this thread be moved to Off Topic or The Lounge? I dont want it to get closed since it's in General Music Discussion.

And so what if something someone did was distasteful? Tastes' are opinions. I don't think it was distasteful. He's putting on a show and part of the show was ripping a Bible up. It's the shock value and the overall expierence. If I'm going to see Behmoth, you're damn right I want to see some shit like that. And as long as it is not physically harming anybody then it is OK in my book. Now yeah, I guess it's against the law in Poland to do that, but Poland having that law is just blasphemy in itself!


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## ry_z (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Free speech is possible, but then by this logic, I'm allowed to spout whatever shit I want free of persecution, and I'm sorry but people should be accountable for what they say or do.



No, you should be allowed to spout whatever shit you want _free of the fear of being silenced_. If other people want to condemn/ostracize you for what you say, it's their place to do so. (Socially, that is. Violent persecution is obviously unacceptable.) But (as far as I'm concerned) it's not the place of governments to enforce these things.

This is why I can't support things like hate speech laws, even being a member of a group that's on the receiving end of quite a bit of hateful speech.

To use a quote from The West Wing: "Knowing that the National Enquirer can print whatever it wants is the only way I can know that the New York Times can print whatever it wants."

The same argument applies here. Knowing that _anyone_ can say what they think is the only way that you can know that _you_ can say what you think. It means that you have to put up with people saying things you don't agree with, but that's a necessary cost.


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## Mr. Big Noodles (Mar 11, 2010)

Uncle Remus said:


> Since when did God need the Polish government to punish people for him and decide what is and what's not offensive to thier religion?
> 
> LOL



Since the Polish government decided they should believe a giant invisible spaceman.

From a philosophical view, I can't understand organized religion. There are far better ways to explain our universe now, but people still cling to a system based on superstition and ritual. However, there are people that are quite close to me with whom I have had disagreements on religion, and we ended up realizing that I never contemplate divinity, as I can explain anything with observable evidence and testable hypotheses (or, if I can't, I can look it up), and they couldn't think of the universe without wondering if there was some mysterious cosmic overlord in charge of it all. In other words, I don't ask myself "Is there a god?". That seems to be the main difference between theists and empiricists, in my experience. I don't worry about it, I sleep better at night. Everybody should do their self a favor and take a couple classes in geography and astronomy.

Now, as Poland has been Catholic since it was hip, I don't think they're going to change and let Nergal go. It does suck, but there are many unreasonable governments in the world. What bothers me is that they have a law that allows somebody to be arrested if they hurt somebody else's feelings - even if it is entirely indirect, and dependent on the victim's interpretation. Wow, let's lock up every twelve-year-old in Poland. Of course, I'm sure that there is a huge double standard here. I'd like to see Nergal try to bring charges against the publisher of that particular book he tore.


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## 6o66er (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> It's still a book that means a lot to a lot of people. He was being offensive and broke the law. Granted, their sentence is heavy, but he is still in the wrong in my opinion. Theres enough tension in this world between races and religions without people making it worse.




Religion and race have caused almost all of that tension by simply existing in the first place. Almost every single conflict in any society that has ever existed was/is/will be based on the dogmas associated with any combination of opposing beliefs, or the ideals associated with them. It will never end, and that sucks, but that is simply just 'how it is'.

Take your statement for example... 'He was being offensive and broke the law.' In his mind - what he did was justified based on his personal beliefs and his having the intent of speaking out against the beliefs of 'the majority'. Whether or not it is against a law, the fact that his country put this law into effect is a sign that they absolutely will not tolerate the beliefs of others regardless of what they may be. This, to me, is the greater crime of the two in the first place. If everyone were to abide by these laws, no progress would ever be made to create a more open-minded and accepting world, and would also allow their government even more freedom to abuse their power and impose their will on the people.

I'm not trying to put you down in any way, so please don't take this as an insult...I'm just pointing out that the law he broke should not exist in the first place, and the fact that it does is more offensive, when you consider it's nature and purpose, than what Nergal did on pretty much every level.


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## corellia_guitar (Mar 11, 2010)

pretty retarded on both ends


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm just going to agree to completely disagree with everyone.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

6o66er said:


> Religion and race have caused almost all of that tension by simply existing in the first place. Almost every single conflict in any society that has ever existed was/is/will be based on the dogmas associated with any combination of opposing beliefs, or the ideals associated with them. It will never end, and that sucks, but that is simply just 'how it is'.
> 
> Take your statement for example... 'He was being offensive and broke the law.' In his mind - what he did was justified based on his personal beliefs and the intent of speaking out against the beliefs of others. Whether or not it is against a law, the fact that his country put this law into effect is a sign that they absolutely will not tolerate the beliefs of others regardless of what they may be. This, to me, is the greater crime of the two in the first place. If everyone were to abide by these laws, no progress would ever be made to create a more open-minded and accepting world, and would also allow their government even more freedom to abuse their power and impose their will on the people.
> 
> I'm not trying to put you down in any way, so please don't take this as an insult...I'm just pointing out that the law he broke should not exist in the first place, and the fact that it does is more offensive, when you consider it's nature and purpose, than what Nergal did on pretty much every level.



Oh I hate organised religion don't get me wrong, but it exists, simple fact. And we have to deal with that and try to get along. Laws shouldn't need to dictate this sort of thing, but humans are unforgiving and can't respect each other, so they have to be. Its a mess but hey.

EDIT - Shit forgot double post merge was gone.


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## MikeH (Mar 11, 2010)

Of course. Everyone should go to jail for detesting god.


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## darbdavys (Mar 11, 2010)

omg, let's go rip Harry Potter book apart and hope not to get jailed


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## MrMcSick (Mar 11, 2010)

This sounds like the news from the villiage paper if it was fucking 1200bc. rediculous.


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## 6o66er (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> I'm just going to agree to completely disagree with everyone.




Imagine being told you couldn't...and that it was against the law. What would you do/say in that situation?

I know....I'm a smartass.  I'm just saying...I really don't believe Nergal is 100% right in what he did, but the government isn't right for putting laws in place to protect religion either. It's just a shitty situation all around.

Anyone can go on about personal beliefs and what they feel is morally right and wrong from any angle they choose, but in the end...it's all just personal belief and opinion...and can/will be argued by others for all eternity. Even my own are flawed in many views...but like I said before, that's just 'how it is'.


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## Xaios (Mar 11, 2010)

I'm a christian, and while I actually *do* take a offense to this, the punishment is unbefitting of the crime. 

Having said that, if what he's attacking is the Catholic church, than surely there are more appropriate symbols to destroy that are more representative of the things he hates about the church. Believe in Christ or not, the words "Let him who is without sin cast the first stone," are printed in that book. Those are words of wisdom no matter where you come from, and by destroying a bible, he shows disdain for anything positive it contains as well as anything negative.

Having said _that_, I honestly don't know what the people who've brought this matter forward are hoping to accomplish. Romans 3:23 says "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," so they have no more claim to 'righteousness' than Nergal.


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

Loving people's comments, peaceful versions of my argument  props and rep to you all, and MrMcSick, I fucking love you for putting that.


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## Riffer (Mar 11, 2010)

Here is a video of the said incident 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nrvv0HRKgqg&feature=player_embedded


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

Riffer said:


> Here is a video of the said incident




....People are honestly pissed about THAT? A panda freak ripping up a book. 

How fucking bored are the courts...I guess there's no murderers or rapists for them to focus on, shit, must be a peaceful country.

Don't take the panda freak comment too seriously - I'm a huge Dimmu fan - but to get pissed off first you have to lend a Kabuki actor credibility  which I just can't do.


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## corellia_guitar (Mar 11, 2010)

by no means should he go to jail but i can't help but laugh at how retarded this whole thing is. i mean look at his costume and makeup and shit.. he looks ridiculous. destroying bibles? who is he, an angst-filled 17 year old that just discovered atheism and is pissed off at his christian parents? i'm not religious by any means whatsoever, but come on. people take this stuff way too seriously. i despise a lot of things about religion but i don't waste my time being an idiot and pretending to be some significant anti-religion lieutenant with makeup on.

but above all, he shouldn't be going to jail for that.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

Ibz_rg said:


> Of course. Everyone should go to jail for detesting god.


 
No ones saying that, but if you detest God (which means you believe in him), then just be aware that how you show that anger can upset others.



6o66er said:


> Imagine being told you couldn't...and that it was against the law. What would you do/say in that situation?
> 
> I know....I'm a smartass.  I'm just saying...I really don't believe Nergal is 100% right in what he did, but the government isn't right for putting laws in place to protect religion either. It's just a shitty situation all around.
> 
> Anyone can go on about personal beliefs and what they feel is morally right and wrong from any angle they choose, but in the end...it's all just personal belief and opinion...and can/will be argued by others for all eternity. Even my own are flawed in many views...but like I said before, that's just 'how it is'.



Ah thats different, I'm saying my opinion in a completely non-hostile, respectful way. Burning holy items isn't.


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## DevinShidaker (Mar 11, 2010)

The cool thing about free speech, is that not only do you have the right to say whatever you want, but you have the right to ignore what other people are saying if you don't like it. The fact of the matter is that everything you do could be seen as offensive to somebody. Nobody forced anybody to go to a Behemoth show. If you don't like it, don't watch it, if you choose to, and you choose to bitch about it, that's fine and dandy, but don't have somebody arrested for offending you.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

corellia_guitar said:


> by no means should he go to jail but i can't help but laugh at how retarded this whole thing is. i mean look at his costume and makeup and shit.. he looks ridiculous. destroying bibles? who is he, an angst-filled 17 year old that just discovered atheism and is pissed off at his christian parents? i'm not religious by any means whatsoever, but come on. people take this stuff way too seriously. i despise a lot of things about religion but i don't waste my time being an idiot and pretending to be some significant anti-religion lieutenant with makeup on.
> 
> but above all, he shouldn't be going to jail for that.


 
He's putting on a show to entertain... I don't think he's ever indicated that he thinks of himself as a leader of anti-religion. He just thinks religion is stupid and is showing it by ripping up what they follow, a book of fiction. It's been blown out of all proportion if you put it in perspective. We should be more bothered about using that cell for rapists and homocidal maniacs


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## EdgeC (Mar 11, 2010)

Play a show in Iran and rip up the Koran then i'll be impressed. Otherwise it seems a little like a publicty based stunt.

With all the crazy shit i've seen black metal bands do, especially in that part of the world this just reeks of bullshit.

Gorgoroth used to pretend to crucify people on stage. And if anyone has seen Mayhem live you'll know what im talking about.


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## B36arin (Mar 11, 2010)

YouTube - monty python stoning clip


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

envenomedcky said:


> The cool thing about free speech, is that not only do you have the right to say whatever you want, but you have the right to ignore what other people are saying if you don't like it. The fact of the matter is that everything you do could be seen as offensive to somebody. Nobody forced anybody to go to a Behemoth show. If you don't like it, don't watch it, if you choose to, and you choose to bitch about it, that's fine and dandy, but don't have somebody arrested for offending you.



THANK YOU.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)




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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

DUDE. I remember that but not where it's from...what was it


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

envenomedcky said:


> The cool thing about free speech, is that not only do you have the right to say whatever you want, but you have the right to ignore what other people are saying if you don't like it. The fact of the matter is that everything you do could be seen as offensive to somebody. Nobody forced anybody to go to a Behemoth show. If you don't like it, don't watch it, if you choose to, and you choose to bitch about it, that's fine and dandy, but don't have somebody arrested for offending you.



Could ignore it true, but then by that logic I can go around saying the Holocaust was funny, and tell everyone else to ignore me if they don't like it. But I have morals, so I don't say that. And thats the key thing. You have to respect your freedom of speech and think about what the consequences migth be. Especially if you're a figure like him who is admired by a lot of people. Yeah, you can choose not to go to a show, but it ends up on the internet, and get posted on forums, and people see that and get offended.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Could ignore it true, but then by that logic I can go around saying the Holocaust was funny, and tell everyone else to ignore me if they don't like it. But I have morals, so I don't say that. And thats the key thing. You have to respect your freedom of speech and think about what the consequences migth be. Especially if you're a figure like him who is admired by a lot of people. Yeah, you can choose not to go to a show, but it ends up on the internet, and get posted on forums, and people see that and get offended.


 

For none of us to get offended EVER we would have to beleive in NOTHING whatsoever. It's inevitable that someone thinks the exact polar opposite to you and if you come into contact with them expressing this polar opinion your bound to be offended. By beleiving in something strongly you should already have prepared for such opininos and learnt to deal with that fact that not everyone agrees with you

Oh btw no one else has said it yet.. Fuck that law


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

This is another example of reaping what one sows. If he's going around bashing people he's gonna get hit pretty hard too. He wouldn't want someone treating him like that in some disrespectful way but he thinks its ok to treat others namely Christians in this case like that. I don't feel sorry for him, he needs to learn some respect. I guess when we all die, we will all know what the truth is.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

Uncle Remus said:


> For none of us to get offended EVER we would have to beleive in NOTHING whatsoever. It's inevitable that someone thinks the exact polar opposite to you and if you come into contact with them expressing this polar opinion your bound to be offended. By beleiving in something strongly you should already have prepared for such opininos and learnt to deal with that fact that not everyone agrees with you
> 
> Oh btw no one else has said it yet.. Fuck that law



This isn't about agreeing or not agreeing with people, its how you demonstrate your point of view. Do it in a respectful way and tehres no problem, but publicly desecrate a holy item and I'm sorry but theres no respect in that and therefore expect people to get offended.  People have just as much right to be free from persecution and have respect, as they do to freedom of speech. 

But yes I agree, fuck that law. 2 years is heavy shit.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> This is another example of reaping what one sows. If he's going around bashing people he's gonna get hit pretty hard too. He wouldn't want someone treating him like that in some disrespectful way but he thinks its ok to treat others namely Christians in this case like that. I don't feel sorry for him, he needs to learn some respect. I guess when we all die, we will all know what the truth is.


 

Anyway.. Nergal can do what he wants at his show. He obviously wants a reaction cos if he didn't he wouldn't have done it.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> This isn't about agreeing or not agreeing with people, its how you demonstrate your point of view. Do it in a respectful way and tehres no problem, but publicly desecrate a holy item and I'm sorry but theres no respect in that and therefore expect people to get offended.  People have just as much right to be free from persecution and have respect, as they do to freedom of speech.
> 
> But yes I agree, fuck that law. 2 years is heavy shit.


 
I think to be fair on him Nergal had a hard time with religion when he was yonger..


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## Evil7 (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> No, the way people behave towards other races and religions causes the tension. In this case, one person has acted offensively towards another religion, theres your tension. I am not Christian, faaaaaaaar from it, but I can see how this would offend people.
> 
> 
> I'm not saying either side is right, but Nergal was pretty tasteless in what he did. If you disagree with someones beliefs, fine, but act resonably about it, don't descrate things that are holy to them. Its out of order.


But Nergal did not walk into a chruch and do this... This was at a Behemoth show where such things would not sound out of the norm..Plus he wasnt the first to rip a bible at a Metal show..

If Nergal Purchased his "book" before he tore it up, I dont see a crime. If anything he "donated money" to the church!  It should not be anyone's business if Nergal wants to destroy every thing he owns.
Edit: I think people shoud do the right thing in the eyes of their lord and forgive Nergal


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

It shows a complete lack of respect for freedom. It's just another case of something that has NO place in law or morality at ALL like religion being allowed to BARGE into people's personal lives.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

Evil7 said:


> But Nergal did not walk into a chruch and do this... This was at a Behemoth show where such things would not sound out of the norm..Plus he wasnt the first to rip a bible at a Metal show..
> 
> If Nergal Purchased his "book" before he tore it up, I dont see a crime. If anything he "donated money" to the church!  It should not be anyone's business if Nergal wants to destroy every thing he owns.



So if I can go out and buy shitloads of Jewish stuff (forgive my ignorance) and burn it and film it, thats fine because I bought it? Therefore no one can be offended? Oh if only the world were that simple.


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

If Nergal tore up the KORAN I wonder what would happen to him????????????????


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> If Nergal tore up the Koran I wonder what would happen to him????????????????



Good question.


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## Riffer (Mar 11, 2010)

Fuck religion, Fuck laws, and Fuck books!


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> If Nergal tore up the KORAN I wonder what would happen to him????????????????


 
The extremist muslims would have his head because they have misinterpreted their book and decided that Allah wants them to kill everyone who will not beleive what they beleive. 

Nergal has a particular gripe with Christianity cos of his childhood like I said. He's not picking a choosing religions at random


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## Necris (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> So if I can go out and buy shitloads of Jewish stuff (forgive my ignorance) and burn it and film it, thats fine because I bought it? Therefore no one can be offended? Oh if only the world were that simple.



People can be offended about it all they want, but that doesn't mean you should be thrown in prison for it.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

Necris said:


> People can be offended about it all they want, but that doesn't mean you should be thrown in prison for it.



Agreed, I don't think he should be thrown in prison. I'm just arguing that it is a potentially very offensive thing he's done and he should be more careful about his actions.

Also theres an easy way of not going to jail. Don't burn any damn Bibles.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> This is another example of reaping what one sows. If he's going around bashing people he's gonna get hit pretty hard too. He wouldn't want someone treating him like that in some disrespectful way but he thinks its ok to treat others namely Christians in this case like that. I don't feel sorry for him, he needs to learn some respect. I guess when we all die, we will all know what the truth is.





stefb7 said:


> If Nergal tore up the KORAN I wonder what would happen to him????????????????





Riffer said:


> Fuck religion, Fuck laws, and Fuck books!





This is why it's hard to discuss such matters. People are a little too extreme in their opinion and it's hard to tell if their serious, trolling or what. Whatever they're doing or think they're doing, they just make things worse and help fuel chaotic situations.

The fact of the matter is what Nergal did was against the law. He has every right to do that but he has to be responsible for what comes his way. Nergal is a Satanist and should know this all too well. As a Satanist one should avoid breaking laws, however should they do it for reasons they feel are right they have to be prepared to take what happens and accept it as their own fault. If Nergal is making a statement, he's also putting himself on the chopping block as the "Black Jesus" in a sense. You put yourself out there to become a figurehead for your religion/viewpoint, you must be aware that crucifixion from the opposing side (which is usually in the majority) is a strong possibility and you have to accept it.


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## Evil7 (Mar 11, 2010)

Necris said:


> People can be offended about it all they want, but that doesn't mean you should be thrown in prison for it.


 PERFECT! +1 - I need to thank people more often


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## JohnIce (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> So if I can go out and buy shitloads of Jewish stuff (forgive my ignorance) and burn it and film it, thats fine because I bought it? Therefore no one can be offended? Oh if only the world were that simple.


 
I think there are plenty of people who do that sort of stuff already... I'm not condoning it in any way, I'm not condoning what Nergal did either, but the punishment is bollocks to me. I also think there's a difference between attacking a minority (such as the jews), and attacking the majority, which in this case is catholicism. It's even the official religion of Poland, according to the article.


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## ElRay (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> He was being offensive and broke the law.


Great, so if I get the majority of folk in my area to deem that wearing purple on odd numbered days is offensive and carries a minimum five year sentence, then we can throw everybody who wears purple on the wrong day in jail? 

Just because the majority wants something doesn't mean it's right. Remember, a pure majority is three wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. That's why we have the courts we do in the U.S.; that's why we have The House with proportional representation and The Senate with equal representation; that's why we have The Electoral College.


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

Islam is going to rule the world someday. What will you all say then? Will you complain about the silly Christians who are supposed to forgive or the Muslims who are gonna take your head off for not serving Allah? Islam is spreading like wildfire.


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## JohnIce (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Agreed, I don't think he should be thrown in prison. I'm just arguing that it is a potentially very offensive thing he's done and he should be more careful about his actions.


 
I see, that kinda does change everything  In that sense I completely agree with you. I think this is a very offensive thing to do. It's the part about sending him to prison for it that I can't agree with.


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## Riffer (Mar 11, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


>


I'm just being dumb. Except for the religion part. I started the thread.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> This is why it's hard to discuss such matters. People are a little too extreme in their opinion and it's hard to tell if their serious, trolling or what. Whatever they're doing or think they're doing, they just make things worse and help fuel chaotic situations.
> 
> The fact of the matter is what Nergal did was against the law. He has every right to do that but he has to be responsible for what comes his way. Nergal is a Satanist and should know this all too well. As a Satanist one should avoid breaking laws, however should they do it for reasons they feel are right they have to be prepared to take what happens and accept it as their own fault. If Nergal is making a statement, he's also putting himself on the chopping block as the "Black Jesus" in a sense. You put yourself out there to become a figurehead for your religion/viewpoint, you must be aware that crucifixion from the opposing side (which is usually in the majority) is a strong possibility and you have to accept it.



Completely agree. 



JohnIce said:


> I think there are plenty of people who do that sort of stuff already... I'm not condoning it in any way, I'm not condoning what Nergal did either, but the punishment is bollocks to me. I also think there's a difference between attacking a minority (such as the jews), and attacking the majority, which in this case is catholicism. It's even the official religion of Poland, according to the article.



Minority or majority, everyone has the right to be free from persecution.



ElRay said:


> Great, so if I get the majority of folk in my area to deem that wearing purple on odd numbered days is offensive and carries a minimum five year sentence, then we can throw everybody who wears purple on the wrong day in jail?
> 
> Just because the majority wants something doesn't mean it's right. Remember, a pure majority is three wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner. That's why we have the courts we do in the U.S.; that's why we have The House with proportional representation and The Senate with equal representation; that's why we have The Electoral College.


 
As I'm saying, I don't think his sentence is fair but _he still _did something offensive however way you shrug it.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> Islam is going to rule the world someday. What will you all say then? Will you complain about the silly Christians who are supposed to forgive or the Muslims who are gonna take your head off for not serving Allah? Islam is spreading like wildfire.


 
That would be a step back don't you think?


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## Evil7 (Mar 11, 2010)

that was beautiful JohnIce +1


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)

Origin said:


> DUDE. I remember that but not where it's from...what was it



I don't know. It just seemed to fit here.


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## ElRay (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Too many abuse the right of free speech. As I said, if he had said his opinions in a respectable way, then this would be a different story.


Not to bash an entire country, but too many Brits have this half-assed view on "The Freedom of Speech" and act like the nonexistent "Right not to be offended" or "Right not to hear anything I don't want to" trump freedom of speech.

Ray


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## MikeH (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> This is another example of reaping what one sows. If he's going around bashing people he's gonna get hit pretty hard too. He wouldn't want someone treating him like that in some disrespectful way but he thinks its ok to treat others namely Christians in this case like that. I don't feel sorry for him, he needs to learn some respect. I guess when we all die, we will all know what the truth is.



Yes, Nergal and Behemoth have always been a symbol for anti-christianity. "Christgrinding Avenue" and "Antichristian Phenomenon" are examples of pretty fitting song titles. And for that reason, people should know that things like this will be done at such shows. As Devin stated, if you don't want to see it, don't go to a fucking Behemoth show. While he is quite up front about his views, it's not like he's murdering people for believing such things. He's ridiculing them just as Christians do to others for not believing. I have been shunned multiple times for being atheist, by both younger and older religious folk. Should they be sent to jail for hurting my feelings/putting down my beliefs, or lack thereof? No. You know why? Because I got over it. Just as tight-ass religious nuts need to do. Not saying that all religious people are, but there are plenty who would want his punishment to be even further. More than likely the death penalty.


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## 6o66er (Mar 11, 2010)

What he has done is an act of protest against religion and how it has affected him on a personal level...he has expressed through an action, making use of a symbol, his opposition to a law and system of belief that he is unable and unwilling to accept - through his music and live performances as an artist.

Protest isn't always respectful by any means.

Is it the best course of action? No, not necessarily. Does it work? Hell yes it does! Look at Marylin Manson, KISS, Black Sabbath (shit even their NAME is offensive to MANY people)...it's NOTHING new to offend people through the use of a medium such as music or art while promoting a personal belief, cause or image. Take Cannibal Corpse album covers and artwork as another PERFECT example of how far some will go...it's ART...but it will offend the living shit out of a lot of people regardless of that fact. That doesn't mean they should be prevented from doing it...they just have to deal with the reactions it will generate, which they obviously care nothing about. 

And that, my friends...is fucking Metal.


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

Quote:
Originally Posted by stefb7
Islam is going to rule the world someday. What will you all say then? Will you complain about the silly Christians who are supposed to forgive or the Muslims who are gonna take your head off for not serving Allah? Islam is spreading like wildfire.
That would be a step back don't you think?[/QUOTE said:


> That would be a few miles back lol. But its gonna happen. The muslims control the black gold in the world and America is suffering greatly because we've gotten into a war in the middle east that will NEVER end until one side is completely wiped out.


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## Evil7 (Mar 11, 2010)

Ibz_rg said:


> Yes, Nergal and Behemoth have always been a symbol for anti-christianity. "Christgrinding Avenue" and "Antichristian Phenomenon" are examples of pretty fitting song titles. And for that reason, people should know that things like this will be done at such shows. As Devin stated, if you don't want to see it, don't go to a fucking Behemoth show. While he is quite up front about his views, it's not like he's murdering people for believing such things. He's ridiculing them just as Christians do to others for not believing. I have been shunned multiple times for being atheist, by both younger and older religious folk. Should they be sent to jail for hurting my feelings/putting down my beliefs, or lack thereof? No. You know why? Because I got over it. Just as tight-ass religious nuts need to do. Not saying that all religious people are, but there are plenty who would want his punishment to be even further. More than likely the death penalty.


Fuck i love you people... +1... More people should be this blunt!


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## MikeH (Mar 11, 2010)

Evil7 said:


> Fuck i love you people... +1... More people should be this blunt!


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)

*TO KEEP THIS THREAD FROM BEING SHUT DOWN*

*Can we please just ignore stefb7? He's either trolling or a damn fool and trying to turn this into Muslim hate hour and it has nothing to do with the topic. You respond to him and let him suck you in, thread gets shut down, you have no one to blame but yourselves.*


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

Religion

is not

a part

of State.

In ANY form. INCLUDING sentencing.

To base a sentence upon faith is IDIOTIC, and UTTERLY inadmissable as any evidence.

I'm aware other countries' laws are different, but (ironically), for CHRIST'S sake.

/rant


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

Ibz_rg said:


> Yes, Nergal and Behemoth have always been a symbol for anti-christianity. "Christgrinding Avenue" and "Antichristian Phenomenon" are examples of pretty fitting song titles. And for that reason, people should know that things like this will be done at such shows. As Devin stated, if you don't want to see it, don't go to a fucking Behemoth show. While he is quite up front about his views, it's not like he's murdering people for believing such things. He's ridiculing them just as Christians do to others for not believing. I have been shunned multiple times for being atheist, by both younger and older religious folk. Should they be sent to jail for hurting my feelings/putting down my beliefs, or lack thereof? No. You know why? Because I got over it. Just as tight-ass religious nuts need to do. Not saying that all religious people are, but there are plenty who would want his punishment to be even further. More than likely the death penalty.




You know what I'm saying. If you piss others off, their gonna piss you off as well.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

ElRay said:


> Not to bash an entire country, but too many Brits have this half-assed view on "The Freedom of Speech" and act like the nonexistent "Right not to be offended" or "Right not to hear anything I don't want to" trump freedom of speech.
> 
> Ray



'Not to bash an entire country, but I will anyway.'  Its not like it 'trumps' of speech but people should be more careful about what they say. Is it too much to ask for a little understanding from fellow men?


Anyway this thread isn't going anywhere, and thats why, I'm out.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

Duncan FTW


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

He knew what he was getting in to by ripping up a bible.

I can understand him not agreeing with the bible (there is some pretty fucked up shit in there) but when you rip up a symbol of someone's way of life they are going to get pissed.

Yeah, freedom of speech is to be valued. But freedom of religion is to be valued as well. With freedom of religion you don't get shit shoved down your throat. You can choose to be athiest, christian, buddhist, without anyone forcing you in to something else.

Am I supporting christianity? no. But I am certainly not supporting religious intolerance.

But, it was still pretty funny. lol


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## DevinShidaker (Mar 11, 2010)

well, this thread turned into one big box of shit. In all seriousness, I don't think he's going to go to jail for this.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

envenomedcky said:


> well, this thread turned into one big box of shit. In all seriousness, I don't think he's going to go to jail for this.


 
I think it twas the religion element of the thread tbh. I could be wrong, just a hunch


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## 6o66er (Mar 11, 2010)

envenomedcky said:


> well, this thread turned into one big box of shit. In all seriousness, I don't think he's going to go to jail for this.




...What'd you expect? It's about religion AND politics. Those two together = a big ass argument that no one ever wins.


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> *TO KEEP THIS THREAD FROM BEING SHUT DOWN*
> 
> *Can we please just ignore stefb7? He's either trolling or a damn fool and trying to turn this into Muslim hate hour and it has nothing to do with the topic. You respond to him and let him suck you in, thread gets shut down, you have no one to blame but yourselves.*





Relax, I'm not doing anything but expressing my free speech. N ur trying to shut me down because I said if one treats people bad he can expect to be treated the same? We're talking about religion, God, etc. So yeah Islam goes in there. I'm not like you making a big thread a while back about ur life and religion and blah blah blah, poor lil boy.


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> Relax, I'm not doing anything but expressing my free speech. N ur trying to shut me down because I said if one treats people bad he can expect to be treated the same? We're talking about religion, God, etc. So yeah Islam goes in there. I'm not like you making a big thread a while back about ur life and religion and blah blah blah, poor lil boy.



But how exactly does this relate to "teh muslimz b takin over teh worldz, plox savers us!" 

Kind of off topic if you ask me


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> Relax, I'm not doing anything but expressing my free speech. N ur trying to shut me down because I said if one treats people bad he can expect to be treated the same? We're talking about religion, God, etc. So yeah Islam goes in there. I'm not like you making a big thread a while back about ur life and religion and blah blah blah, poor lil boy.



Here is an example of how to not use your right to freedom of speech.


You're being offensive fella.  Migth not have meant to be at first, but that statement definitely was.




*I know I said I was out, but...I lied*


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

I responded to his offensive post to me.


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## 6o66er (Mar 11, 2010)

stefb7 said:


> Relax, I'm not doing anything but expressing my free speech. N ur trying to shut me down because I said if one treats people bad he can expect to be treated the same? We're talking about religion, God, etc. So yeah Islam goes in there. I'm not like you making a big thread a while back about ur life and religion and blah blah blah, poor lil boy.




Dude, I think you've gotten WAY out of line by insulting people.

Take that shit elsewhere, it's childish and ignorant and adds absolutely nothing of value in any way at all.


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## stefb7 (Mar 11, 2010)

6o66er said:


> Dude, I think you've gotten WAY out of line by insulting people.
> 
> Take that shit elsewhere, it's childish and ignorant and adds absolutely nothing of value in any way at all.





Wow, people on here have been talking trash about Christians throughout the entire thread and NO ONE had any major problems with it. Nor do people have a problem with what Nergal has done. Yet you have a problem with my response to his offensive comment???

Hypocrites....


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## Stealthdjentstic (Mar 11, 2010)

Its more about you just randomly spurting out offensive things that don't relate to the subject matter at all really.


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## Uncle Remus (Mar 11, 2010)

EDIT: Don't wanna be involved with stefb7 tbh

I hope one day Nergal sees this thread and all the wacky madness that came from his ripping of the bible


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)




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## 6o66er (Mar 11, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


>




Yeah, it's about that time


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## Customisbetter (Mar 11, 2010)

What about "ignore stef" did you guys not understand?


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 11, 2010)

Customisbetter said:


> What about "ignore stef" did you guys not understand?



I realised that too late. I apologise.


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

It's pretty hard to ignore such a moron.. I hope this thread is locked for the good of all of us =P


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

Freedom of religion is a very important thing. If it wasn't around, there would be a lot less atheists in the world.

When it comes down to it, the majority rules. The majority of the planet is religious. And if you are going to be intolerant towards them, then what is keeping them from being intolerant towards you?

Religious intolerance is just as silly and immature as the crusades were. How many christians have actually tried converting you? Was it a significant enough number where you are getting strips of burlap shoved down your throat and ripped out causing your esophagus to rupture like back in the crusades? No? Oh shit! >:/ I guess your situation isn't so fucking bad as you make it sound.

You get what you give in terms of respect, man.

You don't have to agree with the bible. I sure as hell don't. But I'm not about to go tear one up for the whole world to see.

I still think it is wrong that he might be facing jail time. That is just silly.


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## Xaios (Mar 11, 2010)

^ Rep to the man above me.

I think this discussion has run its course. The horse has been flogged and dragged through the streets. Let's retreat back the private recesses of our homes where we all secretely practice Voodoo.




Oh shit, did I just say that out loud? Damn...


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## JohnIce (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> Freedom of religion is a very important thing. If it wasn't around, there would be a lot less atheists in the world.
> 
> When it comes down to it, the majority rules. The majority of the planet is religious. And if you are going to be intolerant towards them, then what is keeping them from being intolerant towards you?
> 
> ...


 
I think that the day an atheist army seeks out lonely, scattered christians (or muslims, buddhists or whatever) and violently forces them to become atheists too or die on the spot, _THEN_ we can start comparing religious intolerance. I've yet to hear about a religious war where one side was atheist. This is why I think it's fair for an atheist to criticize religion, just as it is fair for a non-smoker to criticize the tobacco industry etc.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

JohnIce said:


> I think that the day an atheist army seeks out lonely, scattered christians (or muslims, buddhists or whatever) and violently forces them to become atheists too or die on the spot, _THEN_ we can start comparing religious intolerance. I've yet to hear about a religious war where one side was atheist. This is why I think it's fair for an atheist to criticize religion, just as it is fair for a non-smoker to criticize the tobacco industry etc.



I am not comparing the severity of the intolerance, I am comparing the motive behind it. And it is the same.


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## Xaios (Mar 11, 2010)

HAUCH said:


> I agree dude. But what about shit like the genitorturers, where that chick beats the shit out of guys and shoves nails in their dicks? That shit is as about as illegal as it gets, she's not in jail tho.



How on earth is this at all relevant to the discussion at hand?


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

JohnIce said:


> I think that the day an atheist army seeks out lonely, scattered christians (or muslims, buddhists or whatever) and violently forces them to become atheists too or die on the spot, _THEN_ we can start comparing religious intolerance. I've yet to hear about a religious war where one side was atheist. This is why I think it's fair for an atheist to criticize religion, just as it is fair for a non-smoker to criticize the tobacco industry etc.



With you on this entirely. I don't give a shit about theories and philosophy if there's actions involved. SO MANY people have died for something completely unproven. It's unforgivable to me and I don't want to let those beliefs pervade my mind to become a psychotic like any of your average Christian/Satanist/Muslim religious militants. 

The only hard data is on the side of people who don't let a silly concept like a creator God into their lives.


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## zimbloth (Mar 11, 2010)

This is bullshit. I hope he's found innocent. NERGAL FOR LIFE!


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

He is gone for good guys (in reference to the troll, not Nergal).


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

Origin said:


> With you on this entirely. I don't give a shit about theories and philosophy if there's actions involved. SO MANY people have died for something completely unproven. It's unforgivable to me and I don't want to let those beliefs pervade my mind to become a psychotic like any of your average Christian/Satanist/Muslim religious militants.
> 
> The only hard data is on the side of people who don't let a silly concept like a creator God into their lives.


Ok. I can see how the hundreds of thousands of deaths attributed to religion is unforgivable. But unforgivable to whom exactly? Christians of today, or yesterday? Or unforgivable to religion itself? (That too changes with time.)

I'm not arguing with you I'm just genuinely curious. Also, what is the extent of your intolerance? Would you like to see christians removed from the planet, or would you just like to have the right to call them idiots? Or somewhere in between those options maybe?


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## thefpb2 (Mar 11, 2010)

I think the action was in poor taste


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> Ok. I can see how the hundreds of thousands of deaths attributed to religion is unforgivable. But unforgivable to whom exactly? Christians of today, or yesterday? Or unforgivable to religion itself? (That too changes with time.)
> 
> I'm not arguing with you I'm just genuinely curious. Also, what is the extent of your intolerance? Would you like to see christians removed from the planet, or would you just like to have the right to call them idiots? Or somewhere in between those options maybe?



I think that things like the Crusades, and even acts of church-burning, are evidence of absolute corruption in Religion on every side. I'd like to see it not exist, but nothing will satisfy true believers until they rot in the ground to see for themselves, regardless of where their soul goes.

I would like to see the MILITANT factions destroyed yes, the people that actively kill, maim and terrorize innocent people for something they can not, will not and by all logic never will empirically prove. Religious people in general, absolutely not, since that would make me an utter hypocrite for demanding freedom of expression and simultaneously refusing it to another.

I believe above all that religion is a personal thing and CAN NOT BE USED IN POLICY, GUIDELINES and above all ACTIONS of state, including court proceedings and summary sentencing. Bash Nergal? Fine. Convict him? Unacceptable.

Sorry if I sound like a dick


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

Origin said:


> I think that things like the Crusades, and even acts of church-burning, are evidence of absolute corruption in Religion on every side. I'd like to see it not exist, but nothing will satisfy true believers until they rot in the ground to see for themselves, regardless of where their soul goes.
> 
> I would like to see the MILITANT factions destroyed yes, the people that actively kill, maim and terrorize innocent people for something they can not, will not and by all logic never will empirically prove. Religious people in general, absolutely not, since that would make me an utter hypocrite for demanding freedom of expression and simultaneously refusing it to another.
> 
> ...


Well yeah I already got that part. I was asking a different question. (And to get it out of the way I already stated that it was lame that he got convicted etc. so I'm not arguing that. And this situation revolves around christians not muslims. because he tore up a bible, not a Qur'an. Thought I would make that clear before I re asked you the question)

You said that one of the negative aspects of christianity was that they have killed in the past. You mentioned the first crusades, when they pillaged pagan and muslim villages and actually ATE them sometimes. And you said that is unforgivable. I am not arguing this, I am merely asking questions to clarify where you stand on very specific issues.

And the question I asked was to whom exactly you aren't forgiving? Are you not forgiving christians of today? or the christians in the first crusade? Because those are two completely different groups of people with two completely different sets of ideals.


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> Well yeah I already got that part. I was asking a different question. (And to get it out of the way I already stated that it was lame that he got convicted etc. so I'm not arguing that. And this situation revolves around christians not muslims. because he tore up a bible, not a Qur'an. Thought I would make that clear before I re asked you the question)
> 
> You said that one of the negative aspects of christianity was that they have killed in the past. You mentioned the first crusades, when they pillaged pagan and muslim villages and actually ATE them sometimes. And you said that is unforgivable. I am not arguing this, I am merely asking questions to clarify where you stand on very specific issues.
> 
> And the question I asked was to whom exactly you aren't forgiving? Are you not forgiving christians of today? or the christians in the first crusade? Because those are two completely different groups of people with two completely different sets of ideals.



Maybe you're thinking of me as a crazy dude who wants to kill people for things that happened a really longass time ago. =P I don't believe in that at all, it's just...all of the evidence from the past and today (today leaning more towards the Middle East than us) tends to support that letting faith cloud your judgment ends very, VERY badly. Peaceful religious people I have no problem with, so long as they don't treat it as fact. The only things we can call fact are things with research and legitimate proof behind them, I think we can all agree on that. 

I'm just extremely wary of religion being allowed into state, and fear that (obviously this is EXTREMELY fucked and 99.9% likely wrong to say) things could eventually spiral to disastrous, ultra-violent conditions like those who live in the Middle East have to survive around. I feel deeply for them because all I have to tolerate is hardcore Christians and stupid Satanist goth kids in my town, while they have to think about being KILLED by someone because they weren't born in the same place.

I think we'd all be better off without the whole mess in the first place, but as long as people don't figuratively shove it down my throat OR call it absolutely empirical when there isn't science behind it, they can believe what they want to without me thinking of them as less of people.

Feel free to just tell me to shut up, I know I rant a fair amount, and sorry if this doesn't hit what you were asking


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## Cheesebuiscut (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> You don't have to agree with the bible. I sure as hell don't. But I'm not about to go tear one up for the whole world to see.



See this is the thing people aren't getting, *he did this at his show in front of his fans who payed to watch him do it*. He didn't offend anyone in that room and honestly if you are offended by something like that why the hell would you go to a show where you know this kind of shit is going to happen.

Its like purposely sticking your arm in a meat grinder then suing the company for it. Its just plain stupid. 

He didn't run up to the pope or make a demonstration outside with it or even go to the guy who's filing the damned complaint.

If people are supposed to take offense to anything that doesn't agree with them irregardless if they were present or not then we all might as well lock ourselves up now or start killing each other. Its just plain ignorant no matter how you slice it.

And I'm sorry but what makes anything holy? Because people say it is? So if I say my left ass cheek is holy and tattoo a paragraph on it and say its the holy text of my religious views does my ass cheek become a holy relic now?

The bible / religion is far from holy

Main Entry: ho·ly 
Pronunciation: \&#712;h&#333;-l&#275;\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): ho·li·er; ho·li·est
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English h&#257;lig; akin to Old English h&#257;l whole  more at whole
Date: before 12th century
: exalted or worthy of complete devotion as one perfect in goodness and righteousness

because the bible / religion is far from being perfect in goodness and righteousness and therefor isn't worthy of complete devotion. Its riddled with malice anyone who has taken 15 minutes to research into their own religion would know that.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

Origin said:


> Maybe you're thinking of me as a crazy dude who wants to kill people for things that happened a really longass time ago. =P I don't believe in that at all, it's just...all of the evidence from the past and today (today leaning more towards the Middle East than us) tends to support that letting faith cloud your judgment ends very, VERY badly. Peaceful religious people I have no problem with, so long as they don't treat it as fact. The only things we can call fact are things with research and legitimate proof behind them, I think we can all agree on that.
> 
> I'm just extremely wary of religion being allowed into state, and fear that (obviously this is EXTREMELY fucked and 99.9% likely wrong to say) things could eventually spiral to disastrous, ultra-violent conditions like those who live in the Middle East have to survive around. I feel deeply for them because all I have to tolerate is hardcore Christians and stupid Satanist goth kids in my town, while they have to think about being KILLED by someone because they weren't born in the same place.
> 
> ...


Well it is pretty obvious you didn't answer the question I asked. But I'm glad you said what you said. I thought you were being unrealistic by hating all christians, when in reality christians today don't do any of the shit they used to. But you don't, so that is good. Misunderstandings.. lol


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## Rhoadkiller (Mar 11, 2010)

That's ridiculous, thank the united states for freedom of speech and not involving the church with anything. As an artist you should be able to express your self not. everyone is going to believe in religion.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Mar 11, 2010)

Rhoadkiller said:


> That's ridiculous, thank the united states for freedom of speech and not involving the church with anything. As a *person* you should be able to express your self not. everyone is going to believe in religion.



Fixed.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

This law is stupid, the Bible is not a sacred object, the Dead see scrolls could possibly be considered sacred but not a run of the mill Bible, if I delete a copy of the Bible off my computer have I destroyed something sacred? What about if I have a bible website that is hosted in Poland and I don't pay my bills has the host destroyed something sacred when they delete my site or do they have to keep each copy they have forever to make sure they do not destroy this sacred text?

It's just a book, the information will never be destroyed.

That said I can't see how they can make this stick if Nergal decides to say it wasn't a Bible he destroyed, he could just say he made an imitation as a symbol to destroy because he respects the law. How could they prove he actually destroyed a Bible?


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> Well it is pretty obvious you didn't answer the question I asked. But I'm glad you said what you said. I thought you were being unrealistic by hating all christians, when in reality christians today don't do any of the shit they used to. But you don't, so that is good. Misunderstandings.. lol



I don't think I could ever pigeonhole an entire group or movement, it just isn't feasible  but I do understand that I sounded a bit like someone of that mindset at first. Sorry I got off topic from what you meant haha.


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## Origin (Mar 11, 2010)

s7eve said:


> This law is stupid, the Bible is not a sacred object, the Dead see scrolls could possibly be considered sacred but not a run of the mill Bible, if I delete a copy of the Bible off my computer have I destroyed something sacred? What about if I have a bible website that is hosted in Poland and I don't pay my bills has the host destroyed something sacred when they delete my site or do they have to keep each copy they have forever to make sure they do not destroy this sacred text?
> 
> It's just a book, the information will never be destroyed.
> 
> That said I can't see how they can make this stick if Nergal decides to say it wasn't a Bible he destroyed, he could just say he made an imitation as a symbol to destroy because he respects the law. How could they prove he actually destroyed a Bible?



AGREED.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)

s7eve said:


> This law is stupid, the Bible is not a sacred object, the Dead see scrolls could possibly be considered sacred but not a run of the mill Bible, if I delete a copy of the Bible off my computer have I destroyed something sacred? What about if I have a bible website that is hosted in Poland and I don't pay my bills has the host destroyed something sacred when they delete my site or do they have to keep each copy they have forever to make sure they do not destroy this sacred text?
> 
> It's just a book, the information will never be destroyed.
> 
> That said I can't see how they can make this stick if Nergal decides to say it wasn't a Bible he destroyed, he could just say he made an imitation as a symbol to destroy because he respects the law. *How could they prove he actually destroyed a Bible?*



Jesus will come testify in court


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> See this is the thing people aren't getting, *he did this at his show in front of his fans who payed to watch him do it*. He didn't offend anyone in that room and honestly if you are offended by something like that why the hell would you go to a show where you know this kind of shit is going to happen.
> 
> Its like purposely sticking your arm in a meat grinder then suing the company for it. Its just plain stupid.
> 
> ...


Lol. You put so many words in to my mouth.
First of all, people payed him to play music, not rip a bible up. But that is irrelevant. Second of all, 

"He didn't offend anyone in that room and honestly if you are offended by something like that why the hell would you go to a show where you know this kind of shit is going to happen.

Its like purposely sticking your arm in a meat grinder then suing the company for it. Its just plain stupid."

I never went to the show? Therefore your whole "sticking your arm in a meat grinder" argument is invalid (and a strawman logical phallacy)

I am offended that a metal musician was being religiously intolerant because I am grouped in with that category of people. I am labeled as a metal head/metal musician etc. So things that nergal does effects me whether or not I even know who the fuck he is. See the issue here? I don't even have to listen to his music or go to his shows to be affected by his actions.

And your whole "holy" rant is irrelevant as well. I don't know what the fuck makes anything holy. Why would you think that I did? Why does that have anything to do with this? lol

Like, why are you being so hostile towards me? You didn't even refute my main argument man.


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## Rhoadkiller (Mar 11, 2010)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Fixed.


ahah amen


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## Cheesebuiscut (Mar 11, 2010)

Buddy I used your quote as an example of something people keep doing in this thread and called out what you guys kept missing in my first paragraph.

Not everything is about you. The statement was generalized.


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## PirateMetalTroy (Mar 11, 2010)

s7eve said:


> That said I can't see how they can make this stick if Nergal decides to say it wasn't a Bible he destroyed, he could just say he made an imitation as a symbol to destroy because he respects the law. How could they prove he actually destroyed a Bible?



Really, they can't. But it wouldn't surprise me if he just said "yeah, I ripped up a bible. So what?". Seems like a man who'd stick to his guns.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Jesus will come testify in court



Oh shit 



HeartCollector said:


> I am offended that a metal musician was being religiously intolerant because I am grouped in with that category of people. I am labeled as a metal head/metal musician etc. So things that nergal does effects me whether or not I even know who the fuck he is. See the issue here? I don't even have to listen to his music or go to his shows to be affected by his actions.
> 
> And your whole "holy" rant is irrelevant as well. I don't know what the fuck makes anything holy. Why would you think that I did? Why does that have anything to do with this? lol
> 
> Like, why are you being so hostile towards me? You didn't even refute my main argument man.



Settle down.

You are grouped in the category of a Black Metal band? And you're offended that a Black Metal band is intolerant to religion?  Get a grip, the genre is founded on being intolerant to religion. The actions and lyrics of Black Metal bands have absolutely no effect to how a thrash metal or any other metal guitarist is perceived.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

Cheesebuiscut said:


> Buddy I used your quote as an example of something people keep doing in this thread and called out what you guys kept missing in my first paragraph.
> 
> Not everything is about you. The statement was generalized.



Oh ok. Cool man. I thought you were telling _me_ that I missed your point. I was like, what? lol. but seriously, the "Not everything is about you." comment was unnecessary. I obviously know that, man. You can't blame me for thinking you were talking to me when you quoted my post. It is called a "reply" button for a reason. :/


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

s7eve said:


> Oh shit
> Settle down.
> 
> You are grouped in the category of a Black Metal band? And you're offended that a Black Metal band is intolerant to religion?  Get a grip, the genre is founded on being intolerant to religion. The actions and lyrics of Black Metal bands have absolutely no effect to how a thrash metal or any other metal guitarist is perceived.


I'm pretty calm compared to the guys throwing around insults. 

You misunderstood me. You see things very clearly when it comes to what genres are about because you are involved in the music scene. People like my grandma are not. People like my grandma don't see genres in metal, they just see it all as one. And yes, they group me in with that crowd. And yeah it is pretty ridiculous to care a lot about what nergal did. and I really don't. I just don't like it when people think I'm unjustified in thinking what he did was sort of silly. That is why I seem so overly defensive.

I just think its sort of hypocritical to bash christians when we gave them so much shit for bashing everyone else.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

My grandparents group metal, modern pop music and rock together, they think it is all repetitive noise. Judging another based on the actions of an individual on the other side of the world just because they both play loud guitar is more silly than the guy who ripped the Bible. Love your grandmother but don't let her prejudice or ignorance effect you.

Personally I don't see what Nergal did as more silly than the actions of religious people everyday, he should be allowed to practice his beliefs, speak his mind and use strong demonstration and do so anyway he chooses as long as his actions do not harm another. Religious people do objectionable things and cause offence every day, surely those who have been effected, those who object to religious hate, those who are offended by religion should be able to respond with offensive non violent demonstration.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Mar 11, 2010)

Like the girl whos prom was canceled because her biblically driven town is against her being lesbian. (referring to the lounge thread I just posted in)

Surely she should go to jail because everyone in her town doesn't agree with her


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

s7eve said:


> My grandparents group metal, modern pop music and rock together, they think it is all repetitive noise. Judging another based on the actions of an individual on the other side of the world just because they both play loud guitar is more silly than the guy who ripped the Bible. Love your grandmother but don't let her prejudice or ignorance effect you.
> 
> Personally I don't see what Nergal did as more silly than the actions of religious people everyday, he should be allowed to practice his beliefs, speak his mind and use strong demonstration and do so anyway he chooses as long as his actions do not harm another. Religious people do objectionable things and cause offence every day, surely those who have been effected, those who object to religious hate, those who are offended by religion should be able to respond with offensive non violent demonstration.



You misunderstand me again. I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to do it. I don't think he should go to jail either. I've already said this earlier. :/ I'm saying that I think it was silly that he did it. "Personally I don't see what Nergal did as more silly than the actions of religious people everyday" I'm not disagreeing with that. But two wrongs don't make a right. haha. Hate to pull that card, but it is the truth. What the guy did was silly. If he has a problem with christianity he should resort to words in his songs like he normally does. The actions he resorted to were "extreme" much like what christians do when they protest about how much "God hates fags". this is why they are called "extremists". Being against christianity is fine, as long as you don't resort to an extremist mentality.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> You misunderstand me again. I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to do it. I don't think he should go to jail either. I've already said this earlier. :/ I'm saying that I think it was silly that he did it. "Personally I don't see what Nergal did as more silly than the actions of religious people everyday" I'm not disagreeing with that. But two wrongs don't make a right. haha. Hate to pull that card, but it is the truth. What the guy did was silly. If he has a problem with christianity he should resort to words in his songs like he normally does. The actions he resorted to were "extreme" much like what christians do when they protest about how much "God hates fags". this is why they are called "extremists". Being against christianity is fine, as long as you don't resort to an extremist mentality.



Tearing out the pages to a book he owns I don't see as "extremist". Burning down a church= "extremist". Tearing the pages of a book is rather tame in comparison.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Tearing out the pages to a book he owns I don't see as "extremist". Burning down a church= "extremist". Tearing the pages of a book is rather tame in comparison.


Your argument isn't reversable. Look at it from the other side. Christians see "god hates fags" protests as a guy writing words on a piece of paper he owns. He is expressing his freedom of speech in an offensive manner. Is it legally justified? Yes. But not morally.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 11, 2010)

First off, if you're religious, and you go to a concert where you know the lyrical content is anti religious, and the band has very strong anti religious views, and you get upset about it, you're stupid. There's no way to put that nicely, and I mean it to sound as offensive as I can. Your IQ is lower than the average person.

Anyone dishing out cash for a Behemoth concert knows whats up.

Second of all, if you do happen to be one of the stupid people mentioned, YOU DON'T HAVE THE FUCKING RIGHT TO NOT BE OFFENDED. There exists no right like that. If there's is a law in Poland that says it's illegal to be blasphemous, then the law is immoral and stupid, much like the previous mentioned example.

You know, years ago, it used to be illegal for black people to go to the same school as white people. People were arrested. Just because it's law doesn't make it right.

If I want to burn a bunch of Jewish stuff while I have a Hitler moustache painted on my face with my own feces, and dance around the pile in a SS uniform, that's my own damn business. If I filmed it and handed it out to people, it's still my own damn business.

The Phelps' have every single right to hold up signs with whatever they want. Yeah, it's immoral, and I think they're retarded, but I wouldn't take their rights away.

I DO think people need to think about their actions, but the consequence should be the people who are being pissed off using THEIR freedom of speech to express displeasure, or else fuck off.


For the record, in case you can't tell, I'm very anti-religious. Would I take away someone else's right to believe in a cosmic Jewish zombie and his intangible father figure in the clouds? No, doesn't mean I can't think it's absolutely ridiculous  If you think I'm going to hell, fine, express your belief that I am, and move on.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> First off, if you're religious, and you go to a concert where you know the lyrical content is anti religious, and the band has very strong anti religious views, and you get upset about it, you're stupid. There's no way to put that nicely, and I mean it to sound as offensive as I can. Your IQ is lower than the average person.
> 
> Anyone dishing out cash for a Behemoth concert knows whats up.
> 
> ...



So much truth in this post right here. Legal justification does not equal moral justification and vice versa.


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## Nights_Blood (Mar 11, 2010)

If bibles are so sacred, how come you can find 'em in the dressers at any Motel 6? 

Seriously, this is disgusting. They're going to stick him in a prison filled with murderers and rapists... for exercising free speech...in a stage act.

Nergal is facing *2 years* for doing this at a concert where hundreds, if not thousands of people came to see them by their own free will. I'm pretty sure they knew that Nergal wasn't Joel Osteen in makeup. Oh yeah, he will surely be thrown in with the GP, since the mainstream media surely isn't going to sympathize too much for him.

Lil' Wayne, on the other, hand gets one year, separated from the GP, for illegally carrying a *LETHAL* weapon. Who knows what could have happened if he had been out clubbing, and some dude pissed Lil' Wayne off. It wouldn't matter if it was registered, but by concealing a weapon illegally, you are trying to ensure that in the event that it is used, it won't be traced back to you. But to the mainstream, this is only going to add to his "thug" rep, whereas Nergal probably would have been banned from playing numerous venues had it happened here.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> So much truth in this post right here. Legal justification does not equal moral justification and vice versa.



Exactly.

One example, some guy calls you an asshole. You want to punch him in the face. Do you want the police to do shit like that? Fuck no. The police and government are supposed to be above petty shit like that.

I'm not saying it's right for someone to assault someone... but it's the obvious human reaction for most folks


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## yetti (Mar 11, 2010)

This is why you don't let religion into government, kids.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> You misunderstand me again. I'm not saying he shouldn't be able to do it. I don't think he should go to jail either. I've already said this earlier. :/ I'm saying that I think it was silly that he did it. "Personally I don't see what Nergal did as more silly than the actions of religious people everyday" I'm not disagreeing with that. But two wrongs don't make a right. haha. Hate to pull that card, but it is the truth. What the guy did was silly. If he has a problem with christianity he should resort to words in his songs like he normally does. The actions he resorted to were "extreme" much like what christians do when they protest about how much "God hates fags". this is why they are called "extremists". Being against christianity is fine, as long as you don't resort to an extremist mentality.



Actually you are the one who is misunderstanding me.

Another thing saying "stick to words like he normally does" shows that you don't really understand what he and other Black Metal bands normally do. He is being charged for something he did years ago but it's not a one off event, these bands put on a show and part of that show is the shock content, the fans go to the shows expecting the shock content. Any show is likely to offend a Christian and although Death Metal is not a religion to some it is an expression of what they believe and to some it is a way of life. People should be able to live the way they choose.

Yes two wrongs don't make a right however these people are not Christians, they do not hold to Christian values, their values and beliefs are to fight back when they are attacked and many Christians are offensive, they do attack and they attack first unprovoked, turning the cheek is a Christian principle, it is not a principle of non Christians and especially not a principle of a Satanist. People want to live in peace and be free, they do not want others telling them how to live, they do not want beliefs they do not and will not believe to be forced upon them, they will not be converted. Christians have waged a war against these sinners, they do not understand them, they never will try to understand them and they will continue to forever wage their holy war on non believers. Doing nothing is not an option and different people will respond in different ways according to their beliefs and values. We have no right to judge this man and say that his beliefs, values and actions are inferior to ours. We can believe our way is better and act accordingly but saying that his way is silly, wrong or too extreme is arrogant and assumes that we are better than him. I am sure that he thinks doing nothing is silly.

Marilyn Manson is a more popular figure that used similar shocking displays to express himself and fight the evil in this world, I'd say like him or not he has had a much bigger impact and helped more people than a guy who sits back and does nothing because two wrongs don't make a right. Music has long been a tool to express oneself and to spread a message and to fight for what the musician believes, the spectacle has become an extension of that and can be just as effective.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

s7eve said:


> Actually you are the one who is misunderstanding me.
> 
> Another thing saying stick to words like he normally does shows that you don't really understand what he and other Black Metal bands normally do. He is being charged for something he did years ago but it's not a one off event, these bands put on a show and part of that show is the shock content, the fans go to the shows expecting the shock content. Any show is likely to offend a Christian and although Death Metal is not a religion to some it is an expression of what they believe and to some it is a way of life. People should be able to live the way they choose.
> 
> ...



So ripping up the bible wasn't his point, but it was just a mere attempt of getting attention so people would listen to his actual point? Hmm, that makes sense to a degree, but I don't see how that would be effective towards anyone other than people who were already non-religious. If his objective was to make christians realize the bible is full of shit, then he wasn't really doing a good job of that. Christians will just see him as a hater and blow him off right? If it is a matter of telling christians they're wrong then there are better ways of going about it then ripping up a bible. You seem to know a lot about this stuff, and I know that it goes deeper than that, so explain it to me.


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## MaxOfMetal (Mar 11, 2010)

I think if this goes to court we all know what's going to happen........


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## xtrustisyoursx (Mar 11, 2010)

What's dumb is that the title of this thread is what it is. This has nothing to do with Nergal vs. Christians and has everything to do with Nergal vs. a retarded law that happens to deal with Christianity.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

MaxOfMetal said:


> I think if this goes to court we all know what's going to happen........



No doubt.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

xtrustisyoursx said:


> What's dumb is that the title of this thread is what it is. This has nothing to do with Nergal vs. Christians and has everything to do with Nergal vs. a retarded law that happens to deal with Christianity.



Who made and enforces that law?


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## DDDorian (Mar 11, 2010)

This isn't about the arbitrary enforcement of a law - Nergal is being deliberately targeted by conservative public figures and has been ever since he became a mainstream public figure in Poland. They've tried pinning all sorts of shit on him before (to the point where Nergal sued one of them for defamation and won) and it's obvious that they want to have the book thrown at him now that they've found something that might actually stick. 

Behemoth's shtick is basic Shock Value 101 stuff and the reaction is typical tabloid hyperbole.


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## HeartCollector (Mar 11, 2010)

DDDorian said:


> This isn't about the arbitrary enforcement of a law - Nergal is being deliberately targeted by conservative public figures and has been ever since he became a mainstream public figure in Poland. They've tried pinning all sorts of shit on him before (to the point where Nergal sued one of them for defamation and won) and it's obvious that they want to have the book thrown at him now that they've found something that might actually stick.
> 
> Behemoth's shtick is basic Shock Value 101 stuff and the reaction is typical tabloid hyperbole.



He sued for defamation and won?! What the fuck! Is there a link to that?


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## DDDorian (Mar 11, 2010)

I can't be bothered looking for a link, but the gist of it is that some guy accused him of slaughtering animals on the front page of some publication, so Nergal sued for defamation and made the guy donate all the damages to an animal shelter.


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## El Caco (Mar 11, 2010)

HeartCollector said:


> So ripping up the bible wasn't his point, but it was just a mere attempt of getting attention so people would listen to his actual point? Hmm, that makes sense to a degree, but I don't see how that would be effective towards anyone other than people who were already non-religious. If his objective was to make christians realize the bible is full of shit, then he wasn't really doing a good job of that. Christians will just see him as a hater and blow him off right? If it is a matter of telling christians they're wrong then there are better ways of going about it then ripping up a bible. You seem to know a lot about this stuff, and I know that it goes deeper than that, so explain it to me.



Go back to the original post, Christians are not just blowing him off. Having been a member of the church for many years my experience is that they never do. Not that there has to be a target, this could just be the way he chooses to express himself but if there is a target it could be to appeal to a certain audience such as youth.

His actions have had an effect, people are talking about it, no doubt as a result new people are being introduced to their music for the first time and people are thinking about and discussing a real issue.

I wouldn't be surprised if people start to protest, I wouldn't be surprised if Christians receive greater opposition from this, depending on how this progresses I wouldn't be surprised if some people start to take extreme actions.

But I don't think his objective is to convince anyone the Bible is full of shit. I think his actions are a reaction to religion being full of shit and evil, I think he is merely expressing himself, if I could understand what he is saying in the video perhaps I would have more insight to his motivation on that particular occasion. Intentional or not his music and actions do unite people but some just listen to it because it sounds good and don't care either way.

the problem is that as long as certain religions exist this is a fight no one can win, war is a biblical principle, there will always be some christians who believe they have biblical instruction to fight the good fight and save the world, christians will always be in our face until either they do not exist or we do not exist, or both.

So do we sit back and do nothing and let the world be run by religion or do we fight in our own way for a better world? Some will fight in government, some will fight through research and education, some will fight with demonstration and unfortunately some will fight with non peaceful action. You could say in this situation the actions christians are taking are not peaceful, they wish to take a prisoner hostage, they wish to take away the freedom of a man for expressing his disgust of the church peacefully. I have no doubt about the potential that should they proceed with this their opposition will not be peaceful either.


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## Evil7 (Mar 12, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DZlr3_n8nw
In this one he speaks in English of being young and into Black metal. How it was his artist release ect......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erOcq2lkq-Q&feature=response_watch
He is fucking awsome in this interview....


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## Xaios (Mar 12, 2010)

s7eve said:


> Who made and enforces that law?



Technically speaking...

a) the state.
b) law enforcement officials and the judicial system.

Are they both influenced by the church? More than likely. But if they want to start acting independently of the church, it's a choice THEY have to make.

Just sayin. 

______________________________


One thing I am wondering, what happens if some impressionable young fellow who's beliefs are still in their formative stages is so influenced by Nergal's "show" that he goes out and burns a church down, reasoning that "it's the kvlt black metal thing to do?" It's another take on the classic "video games make people violent" merry-go-round of arguments. If one blames parents for some kid burning a church, then it should follow that one can blame someone like Varg Vikernes' arson habits on his upbringing as well, and we all know how untrue that would be. However, if such an act were to be blamed on the movement itself, than could Nergal could be culpable for inciting violence?

Fine line to walk.


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## El Caco (Mar 12, 2010)

My point is that an atheist isn't going to make and enforce a law like this, this is a law made by christians in the same way that legislation such as the internet filter is being pushed through parliament here by christians who are only representing their own beliefs.


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## Sebastian (Mar 12, 2010)

Since I live in Poland 
I could answer some questions if Apophis didn't do it already 

But reading all 7 pages now... hard hard... I'll check them out later


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## Xaios (Mar 12, 2010)

s7eve said:


> My point is that an atheist isn't going to make and enforce a law like this, this is a law made by christians in the same way that legislation such as the internet filter is being pushed through parliament here by christians who are only representing their own beliefs.



Question, because I actually don't know the answer to this: are the people pushing the internet filter is Australia elected officials?

Goin to bed, will read tomorrow, if this thread is still open.


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## tacotiklah (Mar 12, 2010)

I'll chime in here... (epic rant warning! I get so fired up by the crap fellow "christians" do because I get discriminated/talked down to over their actions)


Note: I'm a liberal christian so take my words with a grain of salt.


I'll start off with saying this. I hate that law, and I think religion and politics make atrocious bedfellows. Never would I want anyone to be 'forced' into liking christianity and I make damn sure that I never try to push my beliefs on anybody else. On occasion when I see people misquote the bible or say that it's a book of hate, I do contradict them because that was NEVER the original intention of the bible. It's only psychotic and unbalanced people who misread what was written and act before they think/force people into converting, that the message of loving your fellow man gets swept under the rug in favor of some personal and fanatical agenda. It's dumbass people like these religious nuts that embarrasses real christians and causes us all to be tarred with the same brush. 
It's embarrassing that people who preach of the love of christ, also use that same mouth to denounce, condemn, and control those that christianity deem as 'brothers and sisters of the lord'. It is also hypocritical of them to preach of god creating free will because he wants us worship him freely, and then turn around and write religious legislation and force people into accepting that faith. I find that offensive to one of the very cores and pillars of the christian faith.



Now to separate religion from fact here for a bit. I do NOT agree that Nergal should serve any time or be persecuted for his right to speak his mind. I'm an advocate for anti-censorship and I think everyone has the right to speak their mind freely and without restraint. However Nergal (if I read the article correctly) hails from Poland and should therefore be aware of Polish laws. He has to understand that if you break a law (whether or not we all disagree with it) the fuzz is going to be beating your door down. I think it's stupid to knowingly break the law and then act surprised when the other side retaliates. The law sucks ass (it reminds me of prohibition in the way of it being VERY unpopular and being forced into law by a few religious psychos with money) but it's still the law. 

I hate the fact that weed is illegal here in the states as it really is a relatively harmless drug, but it doesn't make it any less illegal. Now if I choose to score a phat sack of maui wowie and smoke the whole damn thing in protest, more power to me right? But I won't be at all surprised if I go down because the cops raided my house or found it on me out in public. Pretty much same situation with Nergal, except instead of weed, you have a ripped up bible. I don't agree with tearing up the bible, but as was stated, it's a book and there are PLENTY of other copies of it. 

Truth be told, I find the smashing/destruction of guitars to be more sacreligious. 


/rant


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## El Caco (Mar 12, 2010)

Xaios said:


> Question, because I actually don't know the answer to this: are the people pushing the internet filter is Australia elected officials?
> 
> Goin to bed, will read tomorrow, if this thread is still open.



Yes, want to hear the best part, this is our other option Tony Abbott warns women against sex before marriage | News.com.au


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## Waelstrum (Mar 12, 2010)

Does Poland have a law against burning effigies? Is it illegal to organise public demonstrations? Do they make it illegal to destroy Satanic texts, which are just as religious as any Bible? If I worship wax, would they make it illegal to burn candles, because it would hurt my feelings? If the pope preaches that homosexuality is evil, does he get sent to jail for offending homosexuals? If they make it illegal to rip a Bible, they should keep it consistent, and ban all offensive behaviour, or none at all.


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## Evil7 (Mar 12, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> Does Poland have a law against burning effigies? Is it illegal to organise public demonstrations? Do they make it illegal to destroy Satanic texts, which are just as religious as any Bible? If I worship wax, would they make it illegal to burn candles, because it would hurt my feelings? If the pope preaches that homosexuality is evil, does he get sent to jail for offending homosexuals? If they make it illegal to rip a Bible, they should keep it consistent, and ban all offensive behaviour, or none at all.


Good points indeed


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## tacotiklah (Mar 12, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> Does Poland have a law against burning effigies? Is it illegal to organise public demonstrations? Do they make it illegal to destroy Satanic texts, which are just as religious as any Bible? If I worship wax, would they make it illegal to burn candles, because it would hurt my feelings? If the pope preaches that homosexuality is evil, does he get sent to jail for offending homosexuals? If they make it illegal to rip a Bible, they should keep it consistent, and ban all offensive behaviour, or none at all.



QFT. I hate the cherry picking that church officials do. They make such a big deal about a couple of issues; to the point that all other pillars of their faith become ignored.


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## Metal Ken (Mar 12, 2010)

Xaios said:


> One thing I am wondering, what happens if some impressionable young fellow who's beliefs are still in their formative stages is so influenced by Nergal's "show" that he goes out and burns a church down, reasoning that "it's the kvlt black metal thing to do?"


1) Behemoth was never involved in any burning of churches
2) If a person were that obsessed with behemoth's lyrics (You can read Nergals meanings behind the lyrics in the booklets, too), then they would realize that there's no advocating of burning churches, etc. Just as Judas Priest never advocated shotgun suicides, but somehow still got sued for some dumbass kids in the late 80s trying to kill themselves while listening to Stained Class. 


The worst thing that could happen from taking a Behemoth show literally would be making fun of Christians and tearing up a few bibles on your own.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 12, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> However Nergal (if I read the article correctly) hails from Poland and should therefore be aware of Polish laws. He has to understand that if you break a law (whether or not we all disagree with it) the fuzz is going to be beating your door down. I think it's stupid to knowingly break the law and then act surprised when the other side retaliates. The law sucks ass (it reminds me of prohibition in the way of it being VERY unpopular and being forced into law by a few religious psychos with money) but it's still the law.



I guess the civil rights people back in the 50's and shit should have just kept their mouth shut too, since that was law.

Oh wait....

If you NEVER challenge laws meant to oppress people who are different, then nothing changes.


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## Randy (Mar 12, 2010)

Besides, there are worse things you can do with a Bible than tear it up. You ever pull a hotel Bible out of the nightstand and see what the kids leave in there?


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm pretty sure a chick I was doing at the time used the hotel bible for, er, cleanup. I can't remember though as this was like 7-8 years ago  We stayed there after a metal fest in another province


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## Fred the Shred (Mar 12, 2010)

Just read the article. To avoid stupidly long rants, I'll just say this:
1 - I'm a Christian myself, and I firmly condemn every integration of religious belief in state law other than formal freedom of religious choice; politics and religion have no business together, as historically demonstrated over centuries on end;
2 -Arresting Nergal over ripping a bible is ridiculous beyond belief. Thank god he didn't use a church's toilet, or he'd be in for "defiling a holy place with satan's faeces" or some idiocy like that;
3 -Shock tactics are a part of artistic expression since forever. Poland has some great controversial artists who have employed them in their work before, just not using a bible explicitly;
4 - I couldn't care less about the man ripping a bible. A Bible is a book, no matter how much its contents are praised. It is a way of him getting his point across, and that was it.


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## The Atomic Ass (Mar 12, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> Then, he did break the law which however way you spin it, is breaking the law. I guess I'm sorta half and half.


Any law, which is a bad law, is no law at all. If a law violates natural Rights, (freedom of speech and expression come to mind), then the law is patently void.

The only time law can be valid is when someone has caused harm to another. If churches can engage in book burnings, I think a musician in a band can rip up a bible on-stage.


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## ADAMAKAGORE (Mar 12, 2010)

It´s a book but it represents everything for quite a lot of people people. I don´t care about religion...But hell...I´m tired of these bands who have to do something like this to cause impact...It´s freakin ridiculous...If you want to cause impact focus on your playing...I believe most of you will be against what I just said..But to be honest.. I´m sick of these moves.
Kinda reminds me of Marilyn Manson and all those stupid rumours...


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 12, 2010)

And you're entitled to think it's stupid.

However, you thinking it's stupid doesn't mean it should be illegal.


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## CrushingAnvil (Mar 12, 2010)

vampiregenocide said:


> This isn't about agreeing or not agreeing with people, its how you demonstrate your point of view. Do it in a respectful way and tehres no problem, but publicly desecrate a *holy item* and I'm sorry but theres no respect in that and therefore expect people to get offended.  People have just as much right to be free from persecution and have respect, as they do to freedom of speech.
> 
> But yes I agree, fuck that law. 2 years is heavy shit.



Something about the term 'holy item' just doesn't make sense, man. If It were Jesus' shoe I'd be like, okay he was mental but don't destroy his shoe, guise


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## Adam Of Angels (Mar 12, 2010)

Who wants to go on a full fledged campaign against the church with me? First stop is Poland, naturally. We can use this thread for enlistment.


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## CrushingAnvil (Mar 12, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Who wants to go on a full fledged campaign against the church with me? First stop is Poland, naturally. We can use this thread for enlistment.



There's a Catholic Mafia in Poland.


'Nuff fuckin' said.


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## Adam Of Angels (Mar 12, 2010)

CrushingAnvil said:


> There's a Catholic Mafia in Poland.
> 
> 
> 'Nuff fuckin' said.



Niiice. Looks like this shit is necessary now


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## Samer (Mar 12, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I'm pretty sure a chick I was doing at the time used the hotel bible for, er, cleanup. I can't remember though as this was like 7-8 years ago  We stayed there after a metal fest in another province



JJ hit the nail on the head here; this isn't an issue regarding religions. 

This is regarding social freedoms / human rights, its not "just" to put Nergal in jail for opposing religion even if it is the "law".

The law should represent "justice" not "prejudice"


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 12, 2010)

I think you quoted the wrong post Samer, but it's all good


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## Samer (Mar 12, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I think you quoted the wrong post Samer, but it's all good



HAHA, yea i did; just noticed that.


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## tacotiklah (Mar 12, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I guess the civil rights people back in the 50's and shit should have just kept their mouth shut too, since that was law.
> 
> Oh wait....
> 
> If you NEVER challenge laws meant to oppress people who are different, then nothing changes.




You misunderstand me. If I were in his situation, and had the same beliefs as him, I'd do the same thing. But I wouldn't act surprised about me getting arrested over it. If I knowing break a law (however much I dislike it) I do so knowing what I'm getting myself into and realize that until someone changes that law, I'm stuck facing the consequences of it. 

For the umpteenth time, I don't like the law, I don't like that he go arrested for it, and I don't like that he's being treated like crap over it. I'm just saying that, like the forerunners of the civil rights movement were when they were confronting racist laws, Nergel should realize that destroying bibles in what is essentially a Theocracy is going to get his ass in trouble. Should he be allowed to express himself that way? Absolutely! He should be able to shit on the bible and rip pages out for toilet paper while he's at it. It's the fact that he acted like he didn't expect retaliation that puzzles me a bit. 
If you're gonna protest against a theocracy, expect them to wanna burn you at the stake.
(did I mention that I disagree with what's happening to Nergal? I wasn't sure.  )


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## Janiator (Mar 12, 2010)

Gorgoroth faced the same thing, but those guys had naked chicks crucified on stage...


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## Scar Symmetry (Mar 12, 2010)

Copied and pasted from Facebook:

Fact is, Behemoth are a blackened death metal band, the anti-Christian message is all part of their business. It wasn't a public insult either, it was a Behemoth gig. 99.9% of the people at that gig won't have been offended by it, but rather will have taken it for what it is and not thought about it out of context. 

The guy complaining is clearly a moron as he went to see a Behemoth show, it's like someone going to war and then complaining that people started dying, it's something that should be cripplingly obvious.


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## vampiregenocide (Mar 12, 2010)

CrushingAnvil said:


> Something about the term 'holy item' just doesn't make sense, man. If It were Jesus' shoe I'd be like, okay he was mental but don't destroy his shoe, guise


 
Ha ha touche maybe I hyped it up a bit too much. But it is a big symbol for a lot of people.


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 12, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> You misunderstand me. If I were in his situation, and had the same beliefs as him, I'd do the same thing. But I wouldn't act surprised about me getting arrested over it. If I knowing break a law (however much I dislike it) I do so knowing what I'm getting myself into and realize that until someone changes that law, I'm stuck facing the consequences of it.
> 
> For the umpteenth time, I don't like the law, I don't like that he go arrested for it, and I don't like that he's being treated like crap over it. I'm just saying that, like the forerunners of the civil rights movement were when they were confronting racist laws, Nergel should realize that destroying bibles in what is essentially a Theocracy is going to get his ass in trouble. Should he be allowed to express himself that way? Absolutely! He should be able to shit on the bible and rip pages out for toilet paper while he's at it. It's the fact that he acted like he didn't expect retaliation that puzzles me a bit.
> If you're gonna protest against a theocracy, expect them to wanna burn you at the stake.
> (did I mention that I disagree with what's happening to Nergal? I wasn't sure.  )



I'd be surprised if it happened in this day and age too. There's some weird, fucked up laws, even over here. I think in one of the bathroom readers it had fucked up laws (that are obviously never enforced) from back in the day that never got taken out, like eating ice cream on a certain street at a certain time of day, and I'm not even exaggerating


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## TruthDose (Mar 12, 2010)

Adam Of Angels said:


> Who wants to go on a full fledged campaign against the church with me? First stop is Poland, naturally. We can use this thread for enlistment.




At your service General!


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## tacotiklah (Mar 12, 2010)

JJ Rodriguez said:


> I'd be surprised if it happened in this day and age too. There's some weird, fucked up laws, even over here. I think in one of the bathroom readers it had fucked up laws (that are obviously never enforced) from back in the day that never got taken out, like eating ice cream on a certain street at a certain time of day, and I'm not even exaggerating



Yeah I get you, but from what I read in that article he's a polish native so he should know that they have that law. I get why he did it, because he feels oppressed and persecuted by a faith that's not his (like many of his fellow scandanavian black metallers up north) and I feel he's right to fight that kind of oppression. Even as a christian, I'd put foot to ass to change the laws there as they are ridiculous. My point is though that when you go to war, you should naturally expect casualties. 

My whole rant isn't so much who's right or wrong (because we all know the Polish government fucked up by putting the church in charge there. As once astutely said, Power corrupts, but absolute power corrupts absolutely)
it's that if you knowingly go to provoke/protest/whatever something you disagree with, you gotta expect some kind of retaliation.
Tearing up bibles in a land run by religious crazies is kinda like MLK forcing social change in the south. It's necessary and I support it, but you just know that some fuckhead is gonna make a fight/stink about it and raise hell.


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## NickDowe (Mar 12, 2010)

what an asshole lol... let me rip a bible up and see what kinda publicity i can stir up for my band?? Oh whats that, a 2 year prison sentence? FAIL!!! And you know thats what its about... i know Poland is messed up but come on it was a stunt like Lindsey Lohan going lezbo.

Seriously, impress people with your music don't be a fucking chode and tear up a book millions of people worldwide put all their faith into. I am not even religious and i know enough to think thats a bad idea lol. Its about as stupid as burning a flag. anyone of you who say its only paper are fuckin ignorant, you know god damn well what it symbolizes. How about i come to your house grab a photo off the fire place of your dead grandmother and cum right in her face? Hey its only paper right? Yes i know Poland is run by the church and all the oppression of religion there but there are other ways to voice your beliefs.


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## Evil7 (Mar 12, 2010)

NickDowe said:


> what an asshole lol... let me rip a bible up and see what kinda publicity i can stir up for my band?? Oh whats that, a 2 year prison sentence? FAIL!!! And you know thats what its about... i know Poland is messed up but come on it was a stunt like Lindsey Lohan going lezbo.
> 
> Seriously, impress people with your music don't be a fucking chode and tear up a book millions of people worldwide put all their faith into. I am not even religious and i know enough to think thats a bad idea lol. Its about as stupid as burning a flag. anyone of you who say its only paper are fuckin ignorant, you know god damn well what it symbolizes. How about i come to your house grab a photo off the fire place of your dead grandmother and cum right in her face? Hey its only paper right? Yes i know Poland is run by the church and all the oppression of religion there but there are other ways to voice your beliefs.


Indecent exposure and breaking an entering is a crime no matter if you get your head busted for doing such an act .. then arrested.... A book he purchased is a different story.
not a good analogy.  Be offended.. try to beat his ass...taking his freedom is a totaly different story...


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## JJ Rodriguez (Mar 12, 2010)

NickDowe said:


> Seriously, impress people with your music don't be a fucking chode and tear up a book millions of people worldwide put all their faith into. I am not even religious and i know enough to think thats a bad idea lol. Its about as stupid as burning a flag. anyone of you who say its only paper are fuckin ignorant, you know god damn well what it symbolizes. How about i come to your house grab a photo off the fire place of your dead grandmother and cum right in her face? Hey its only paper right? Yes i know Poland is run by the church and all the oppression of religion there but there are other ways to voice your beliefs.



If you purchased a picture of my grandmother (although I have no idea why her picture would be in a store in the first place) and you were doing it privately, or with consenting adults attending, then have at it, because I would never know about it.

This concert happened with people who consented to being there, and know full well what Behemoth is about. 

It doesn't matter how he voices his beliefs, so long as he's not violating anyone's rights in doing so (and again, there isn't any "right to not be offended").

None of your analogies even fit the situation at all. Who cares if millions of people believe in it? That has nothing to do with his personal freedom to rip up his own property. And you mention flag burning....are you implying that burning a flag should be illegal?

I can't even fathom how some people think this is even remotely okay for him to be prosecuted, let alone someone who isn't religious such as yourself.


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## El Caco (Mar 12, 2010)

As pointed out it isn't a fair analogy especially considering I pointed out the difference between something like the dead sea scrolls and a run of the mill Bible. A better analogy would be to cum on the face of the centrefold in the latest playboy magazine which is rarer than the Bible, but even if you purchased a copy of action comics number 1 and destroyed it sure you'd have people wanting to kill you for destroying something they consider sacred the majority would concede it was yours to do with as you please. 

I have somewhere between 10 and 20 Bibles in my house and many more scriptures of other religions, they all belong to me and what I do with them is my own business and effects no one. The crazy thing is just like many members of churches world wide I have destroyed a number of Bibles just by using them. People in Poland mustn't study their Bibles for fear of breaking the law


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## Sebastian (Mar 13, 2010)

s7eve said:


> People in Poland mustn't study their Bibles for fear of breaking the law







NickDowe said:


> i know Poland is messed up



Let's check it. Actually "no one" but a few people (5) care about that incident.
The first time this one guy went to court with Nergal, who really cared ? ony that guy. No some 4 politicians want some more popularity so they dragged this case out. And that 4 people aren't even in the leading party - just people wanting attention. It'snot like the whole nation wants to burn him.

Will Nergal be sentenced ? maybe.. but i bet it will be a suspended sentence.

Yes Poland is a catholic country, but it's all connected with our history, so you gotta respect that. USA was started by people that were facing religious discrimination in England -  and look at it now


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## tacotiklah (Mar 13, 2010)

s7eve said:


> As pointed out it isn't a fair analogy especially considering I pointed out the difference between something like the dead sea scrolls and a run of the mill Bible. A better analogy would be to cum on the face of the centrefold in the latest playboy magazine which is rarer than the Bible, but even if you purchased a copy of action comics number 1 and destroyed it sure you'd have people wanting to kill you for destroying something they consider sacred the majority would concede it was yours to do with as you please.
> 
> I have somewhere between 10 and 20 Bibles in my house and many more scriptures of other religions, they all belong to me and what I do with them is my own business and effects no one. The crazy thing is just like many members of churches world wide I have destroyed a number of Bibles just by using them. *People in Poland mustn't study their Bibles for fear of breaking the law*



QFT! Any book that gets used a lot will wear with time. Are they gonna haul people to jail for that as well?


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## Sebastian (Mar 13, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> QFT! Any book that gets used a lot will wear with time. Are they gonna haul people to jail for that as well?



I can't really say if 10 pages of this topic is about Nergal and Poland.. or Religion in general 

But the first time I saw this thread and it had 7 pages I was amazed ! No one really treats this seriously here... hell.. it's not in the news it's not serious lol...

For sure there's a difference between reading a book, and destroying it intentionally... but hey... some say it's just a book thats cool


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## tacotiklah (Mar 13, 2010)

Sebastian said:


> I can't really say if 10 pages of this topic is about Nergal and Poland.. or Religion in general
> 
> But the first time I saw this thread and it had 7 pages I was amazed ! No one really treats this seriously here... hell.. it's not in the news it's not serious lol...
> 
> For sure there's a difference between reading a book, and destroying it intentionally... but hey... some say it's just a book thats cool



Trust me dude, Americans can get very haughty about someone not being able to speak their mind. It's just how we roll.

But re-reading my posts makes me feel a bit presumptuous. I've never been to Poland, let alone lived there. I think it would be of great benefit to us all if you'd be willing give us a bit of an insight into what the Polish laws are like, since you live there. Maybe there is more to this story that we're not hearing.....
Is this a human rights case or is this just theatrics that went too far?


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## Sebastian (Mar 13, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> Trust me dude, Americans can get very haughty about someone not being able to speak their mind. It's just how we roll.
> 
> But re-reading my posts makes me feel a bit presumptuous. I've never been to Poland, let alone lived there. I think it would be of great benefit to us all if you'd be willing give us a bit of an insight into what the Polish laws are like, since you live there. Maybe there is more to this story that we're not hearing.....
> Is this a human rights case or is this just theatrics that went too far?



theatrics .. all the way...

See those 4 politicians, and 1 professor/doctor, that filled charges didn't speak SHIT about this case a year or 2 ago.

Why they do it now.
Let's break it down: Of course they want more attention - because soon there will be elections, and Nergal is more popular here thanks to being in an relationship with a very popular Polish pop star, so he gets more attention also.

Law: Yeah so its a case about "insulting religious beliefs", Like I said, only one person had a problem with Nergal after that inciddent occured, and now its all about attention.

I read "he's arrested" Different countries - different laws, he is NOT arrested by any means, he just heard charges. Thats all.


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## Jogeta (Mar 13, 2010)

if it was the Qu'ran he'd have been killed by now


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## tacotiklah (Mar 13, 2010)

Jogeta said:


> if it was the Qu'ran he'd have been killed by now



That's not necessarily true. There are plenty of "normal" muslims that, while offended, would be passive about it. Sure you got Al Qaeda, Hamas, Taliban, and Hezbollah crazies that send their kids out as suicide bombers, but if you've ever actually read the Koran (I've briefly studied it, so take what I say with a grain of salt) that any violence outside of Jihad is prohibited. (and there are very strict guidelines about jihad that those groups violate every day)

But the Koran is neither here nor there. This issue is about being allowed to express yourself without persecution.


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## unitas (Apr 2, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> If I knowing break a law (however much I dislike it) I do so knowing what I'm getting myself into and realize that until someone changes that law, I'm stuck facing the consequences of it.



This.

I'm Catholic and although I may find what he did distasteful, that's not the point. The point is he knowingly broke the law, however silly that law may be to us. It's the same as going to Germany where they have laws against denying the holocaust, getting up on stage and saying "...the holocaust is fake." The laws of a democratic country reflect the sensibilities of its citizens, and since the population in Poland is 98% Catholic... you get my point.


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## unitas (Apr 2, 2010)

ghstofperdition said:


> That's not necessarily true. There are plenty of "normal" muslims that, while offended, would be passive about it.



I remember a while back some political cartoons were printed in a Danish newspaper that caused riots in several countries. 

Let's face it, if he did this to the Torah or Quran there'd be a shitstorm. That's why a lot of these artists attack christianity more than any other. It's like beating up the kid who never fights back.


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## Scar Symmetry (Apr 2, 2010)

unitas said:


> This.
> 
> I'm Catholic and although I may find what he did distasteful, that's not the point. The point is he knowingly broke the law, however silly that law may be to us. It's the same as going to Germany where they have laws against denying the holocaust, getting up on stage and saying "...the holocaust is fake." The laws of a democratic country reflect the sensibilities of its citizens, and since the population in Poland is 98% Catholic... you get my point.



A Behemoth show is the Lion's Den. If you are a Christian and you go to a Behemoth show and get offended by anything Nergal says, the fault is yours. I'm not sure Nergal did knowingly break the law because if there was no doubt about him breaking the law he would've been locked up by now surely. Innocent until proven guilty.



unitas said:


> I remember a while back some political cartoons were printed in a Danish newspaper that caused riots in several countries.
> 
> Let's face it, if he did this to the Torah or Quran there'd be a shitstorm. That's why a lot of these artists attack christianity more than any other. It's like beating up the kid who never fights back.



It's really not. Like you said, Poland is 98% Catholic, so why would Nergal attack Muslims? That wouldn't make sense. He attacks what he sees and knows, and he's fully entitled to do so. If the law forbids him to do that, then it's the law that is at fault because then freedom of speech is no longer freedom of speech. We're talking about very basic human rights here.

This is like that stupid law in Ireland where people can't voice negative views about Christianity. People really need to get thicker skin.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Apr 2, 2010)

unitas said:


> I remember a while back some political cartoons were printed in a Danish newspaper that caused riots in several countries.
> 
> Let's face it, if he did this to the Torah or Quran there'd be a shitstorm. That's why a lot of these artists attack christianity more than any other. It's like beating up the kid who never fights back.



Look..don't start that Muslim crap. EVERYTIME a thread like this surfaces, some Christian quickly scapegoats to Islam. Considering that Christianity has been the most destructive religion throughout history, which do you think will ruffle more feathers? Afterall most Americans didn't even know what the hell a Muslim was until 9/11 and even now they still don't know..all they know is stereotypes which they seem to think go for all Muslims. 

Having said that, I have no issue with Christianity so don't think I'm throwing stones..just stating what is. Secondly Nergal should have known better..isn't he Polish? I'm sure he knew the law and if he did then it was stupid for him to do what he did UNLESS he didn't mind the consequence of his actions. That's really what it boils down to..and especially as a Satanist he should have known better.


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## devil (Apr 2, 2010)

As someone said earlier, nergal does this at every show. In most places he faces no consequences for any of his actions, in places like poland he gets in trouble briefly.

Its not exactly hurting his career to get this kind of publicity is it?

Do you think his record company is telling him to stop this or else hell sell too many records?

Also: there are completely different laws in poland. Freedom of speech does not exist like it does in america, and innocent until proven guilty does not apply AT ALL.

Hes not fully entitled to do so...obviously. Its pretty much common sense to check the laws before you break them. 

Unitas is right - if he did tear up Quran it would be alot worse. Simply because muslims are the hot topic right now, and they have a helluva lot more violent tendencys right now.


I think it would be pretty impressive right now to do something like that, because you know if you piss off the muslim community, someone is going to come after you guaranteed.

Tearing up a bible is so 1998 its just stupid that this even gets attention at all, which is why he does it if you havnt noticed.

If you saw this happen in america would you even think twice? In fact Id probably judge him on the way he did it and rate him on offensiveness.


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## MorbidTravis (Apr 2, 2010)

to be completely honest, i think it is a ridiculous law. BUT the bible is a sacred book to the largest religion on earth. Even if there are 23 billion copies of it, it doesnt make it any less special. It'd be the same as ripping up the torah, or Kor'ran(i dont know how to spell it, and im about to leave) 

Its kind of like the westboro baptists protesting soldiers funerals, only they can get away with it.


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## Evil7 (Apr 2, 2010)

well put Devil..


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## Demiurge (Apr 2, 2010)

unitas said:


> I remember a while back some political cartoons were printed in a Danish newspaper that caused riots in several countries.
> 
> Let's face it, if he did this to the Torah or Quran there'd be a shitstorm. That's why a lot of these artists attack christianity more than any other. It's like beating up the kid who never fights back.



Good point, but it really doesn't support the "at least Islam is crazier" argument. It's all relative to who has the bully pulpit- if you blaspheme a religion with adherents linked to terrorist activity, you could be targeted by terrorists (as with the Danish newspaper), while if you blaspheme a religion with the government in their pocket, you could be targeted by the state (as seen here). Both prospects are incredibly disturbing, but I think the latter is still more frightening.

Terrorism is scary, sure, but it's an attempt to act with authority outside of government oversight (theoretically). No need for terrorism when the government will punish your enemies for you.


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## unitas (Apr 2, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> Look..don't start that Muslim crap. EVERYTIME a thread like this surfaces, some Christian quickly scapegoats to Islam.



Actually I wasn't scapegoating to islam, someone said that if he did that to a quran he'd be dead. Someone responded to the contrary and all I pointed out was that when muslim sensibilities are offended even in a similarly benign way that there is much more of a chance of a hostile retaliation than when christianity is insulted. I don't think he'd be dead, but it wouldn't have been met with silence, either.



> Considering that Christianity has been the most destructive religion throughout history,



It can be argued that Atheism was the most destructive philosophy in the 20th century, your point? People do bad things. No matter what religion or philosophy someone chooses there is still personal responsibility. If we blame philosphies for their followers' actions (even if the philosophy or religion dictates otherwise) then no philosophy is safe. Not christianity, not atheism, not satanism. I do not blame satanism for the church burnings of the 90's, I blame the people who did them. Same goes for Cortez or Ferdinand or whoever else.



> Secondly Nergal should have known better..isn't he Polish? I'm sure he knew the law and if he did then it was stupid for him to do what he did UNLESS he didn't mind the consequence of his actions. That's really what it boils down to..and especially as a Satanist he should have known better.



That's my point, and yes he is Polish so he knows what he was doing was against the law. I'm not endorsing the law in any way, just saying that he knew the law and chose to break it.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Apr 2, 2010)

unitas said:


> Actually I wasn't scapegoating to islam, someone said that if he did that to a quran he'd be dead. Someone responded to the contrary and all I pointed out was that when muslim sensibilities are offended even in a similarly benign way that there is much more of a chance of a hostile retaliation than when christianity is insulted. I don't think he'd be dead, but it wouldn't have been met with silence, either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And my point still stands. It wasn't about blaming Christianity..it's the fact that people have done more underhanded work in the name of Jehovah than Allah, so it would seem to me that you'd have more people against Christianity since it has a longer track record. It's not just about being controversial..he's acting against the religion he feels strongly about. Not to mention that I doubt the Taliban or Muslims in general would be all that up in arms over a man I'm sure lots of them have never even heard of, and him tearing up Muslim sacred text wouldn't really get him anywhere. He wouldn't tear up such a thing because Islam doesn't effect him in the way Christianity does.

And let's take into consideration that these are extremist Muslims we're talking about..which is a small portion of Islam. They have bigger fish to fry, and on the opposite hand the Christians against Nergal are a good majority, a majority which happens to have a foot in the door of the government of that land, which would cause more problems.

In short, he's doing it because of what he feels he and his music stands for, and of course there's controversy with it but such a thing comes with the territory. I fail to see what Muslims have to do with this because it's an irrelevant factor. He's not talking about Islam. Not to mention if he really wanted to stir things up, Christianity's the way to go as the religion is larger and he wouldn't stand to gain as much recognition going on an Anti-Islam campaign..so both ways Islam isn't even a factor and I don't really know why they get dragged into these types of conversations when they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.


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## Paulfocused (Apr 2, 2010)

Nergal is has been spitting in christianity's face for years, why the hell do they want to do something about it now? It's a part of his message for freedom as he has clearly stated numerous times. He has never once harmed anyone, and ripping a book with so many followers (despite holding hateful passages) is obviously bold. Though, I don't see the problem. A peaceful and intelligent man like Nergal doesn't deserve prison. And some of us fans want to see him in live performances (and hear his music). If I have to, I'll go Rambo on those judges' asses.


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## 7 Dying Trees (Apr 2, 2010)

in 500 years, when we all worship the 8 armed astral being Zod, we'll all look back at this as barbaric false idol worship and laugh.


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## Paulfocused (Apr 3, 2010)

7 Dying Trees said:


> in 500 years, when we all worship the 8 armed astral being Zod, we'll all look back at this as barbaric false idol worship and laugh.



lol, if you're referring to General Zod (the only Zod I've heard of) then BOW BEFORE ZOD!!!!!!!!   I've always been a Batman guy anyway. Superman can rot in his own immortality for all I care. Red tights are fucking lame.


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## unitas (Apr 3, 2010)

DrakkarTyrannis said:


> it's the fact that people have done more underhanded work in the name of Jehovah than Allah, so it would seem to me that you'd have more people against Christianity since it has a longer track record.



And I agree, but still we must differentiate what drives a person to do bad things, the philosophy or rather the want for power or wealth using a philosophy or religion as a convenient excuse. I'm with the latter.



> And let's take into consideration that these are extremist Muslims we're talking about..which is a small portion of Islam. They have bigger fish to fry, and on the opposite hand the Christians against Nergal are a good majority, a majority which happens to have a foot in the door of the government of that land, which would cause more problems.



In today's context that slim minority of Muslim extremists is more dangerous than the Catholic majority in Poland. Christians don't fight back the way Muslims do. They're easy targets, imho.



> Not to mention if he really wanted to stir things up, Christianity's the way to go as the religion is larger and he wouldn't stand to gain as much recognition going on an Anti-Islam campaign.



At least among his peers, agreed. Although those that criticize islam don't get recognition per se as you put it, take Geert Wilders for example. Criticizing christianity gains you brownie points, recognition in the genre and an appeal to like-minded fans. Criticizing islam in the context of european metal gains well, nothing really.


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## Hellbound (Apr 4, 2010)

7 Dying Trees said:


> in 500 years, when we all worship the 8 armed astral being Zod, we'll all look back at this as barbaric false idol worship and laugh.





He speaks the truth!


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## JerkyChid (Apr 15, 2010)




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## Waelstrum (Apr 15, 2010)

unitas said:


> It can be argued that Atheism was the most destructive philosophy in the 20th century.


Just wondering how do you measure such destruction? As far as I'm aware (and I may be missing some major point) no one has killed in the name of Atheism to the same degree that Palestine and Israel are fighting over holy land, or Protestants and Catholics fought in Ireland, or Christians bombing abortion clinics.I'm not saying that everyone of these religions is going to kill because of their faith, and these are loud minorities in comparison to the peaceful majority of the believers, but can you show any instances of Athiest driven violence?


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## minusthemonkey (Apr 15, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> Just wondering how do you measure such destruction? As far as I'm aware (and I may be missing some major point) no one has killed in the name of Atheism to the same degree that Palestine and Israel are fighting over holy land, or Protestants and Catholics fought in Ireland, or Christians bombing abortion clinics.I'm not saying that everyone of these religions is going to kill because of their faith, and these are loud minorities in comparison to the peaceful majority of the believers, but can you show any instances of Athiest driven violence?



You mean outside of Soviet Russia?

Look, before the shit storm falls upon me, I'm not a fan of organized religion, and don't argue the simple reality that historically Christianity, well, okay, religion in general, has been the rationalization for most of the atrocities throughout written history. Simple fact is even if you take the idea of gods out of the equation, the blind adherence of the mob to any "faith", be it religious in nature or philosophical, can lead to atrocities.

Anyway, Nergal wasn't ripping up "some book". It is a symbol to a whole hell of a lot of people. Symbols mean a lot to some. Honestly, I don't give a crap what he did. I means nothing to me. It was intentionally inflammatory to those that do find meaning in the bible.

That said, it's a performance art piece. He didn't rape anyone, he didn't kill anyone and he didn't rob anyone. He made a statement. Charging him with a crime is ludicrous, but I wonder if I'd feel the same way if he did a Nazi salute and piss on the torah.


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## behemoth91 (Apr 15, 2010)

jesus the polish government needs to get with the fucking times. god i hate the polish government. HAIL BEHEMOTH MAY NERGAL BE FOUND NOT GUILTY!!!


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## jymellis (Apr 15, 2010)

ok this is a pretty easy fix. 
nergal-what bible? it was a fucking prop you idiots. prove it was real, it was a prop, i was actually ripping up "little house on the praire"


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## behemoth91 (Apr 15, 2010)

jymellis said:


> ok this is a pretty easy fix.
> nergal-what bible? it was a fucking prop you idiots. prove it was real, it was a prop, i was actually ripping up "little house on the praire"


 yea ive seen him do it before, its actually just blank pages. and fuck whats so sacred about a bunch of words thats mass produced?


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## jymellis (Apr 15, 2010)

even if they werent blank and he did rip a bible (didnt ozzy do that in the 80s ?). its 3 years ago. prove it wasnt bearnstein bears mofakkas.


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## ralphy1976 (Apr 15, 2010)

funny...when i say that title i thought of the wife of a friend of mine...NERGAL, from kazakhstan....not sure she could rip a bible in half consider she is rather short...and heavily pregnant now...oh boy...


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## behemoth91 (Apr 15, 2010)

jymellis said:


> even if they werent blank. its 3 years ago. prove it wasnt bearnstein bears mofakkas.


 you know what needs to happen thatd be really awesome, is cannibal corpse just burst into the courthouse and fisher act like he did at tampa mayhem when he threatened to kill a dude who threw thrash on the stage and he needs to start threatining and shit then all of a sudden they just start playing hammer smashed face and a bunch of people randomley run into the courthouse and start moshing and punching the polish government representitives in the face. thatd make one hell of a scene.


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## jymellis (Apr 15, 2010)

behemoth91 said:


> you know what needs to happen thatd be really awesome, is cannibal corpse just burst into the courthouse and fisher act like he did at tampa mayhem when he threatened to kill a dude who threw thrash on the stage and he needs to start threatining and shit then all of a sudden they just start playing hammer smashed face and a bunch of people randomley run into the courthouse and start moshing and punching the polish government representitives in the face. thatd make one hell of a scene.


 
better yet GWAR comes in a does a real version of the lawnmower scene in dead alive


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## behemoth91 (Apr 15, 2010)

or cannibal corpse, gwar, slayer, behemoth, and gorgoroth come and just make the courthouse turn into a hell hole only inhabited by satan and his minions and make all the reps get dragged to hell like in the movie drag me to hell.


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## Waelstrum (Apr 15, 2010)

minusthemonkey said:


> You mean outside of Soviet Russia?



Well, I just googled that, and I can admit I was wrong. I had never heard of much Russian history, and I would never have thought that people would ever do such a thing, but I guess it's no different to when the Christians justified the crusades based on a book that said "thou shalt not kill".


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## Hellbound (Apr 15, 2010)

I think Christians should learn to think for themselves rather than going by some book. It's just a book. Most Christians are way too Anal when it comes to someone expressing their own beliefs. This guy burned a book and is supposedly going to prison for it.........come on that is just retarded. I can have my own opinions and freedom of thought. I do not think my posts like this should get deleted.


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## ddtonfire (Apr 15, 2010)

Hellbound said:


> I think Christians should learn to think for themselves rather than going by some book.


One of the positive (or negative) qualities of said book is that it's open to interpretation, which, to an extent, allows this.

Even so, it's disrespectful to treat something so greatly reverenced by so many like that, but it's ludicrous he's going to jail over such a petty action; especially when there are actual crimes that go unpunished, or underpunished. The prosecution seems to be conveniently ignoring Matthew 7:3, "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye." They're violating the very words they think they're defending.


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## swayman (Apr 18, 2010)

Yup, the Catholic Church loves censorship alright. Do this or you'll go to hell, don't do that or you'll go to jail...

During "World Youth Day" in Australia a few years ago, there was a law passed to prevent anybody annoying or offending Christians. Basically all you had to do was say something that slightly annoyed a Christian and you could do time in Jail. Never mind the fact that we had to deal with an influx of annoying god loving wankers who by their very presence insult the name of the God they worship.

If any of our right winged Christian government groups ever gains power, I'll move from this country. The sooner religion & government are separated completely the better.


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## Cheesebuiscut (Apr 18, 2010)

Hellbound said:


> I think Christians should learn to think for themselves rather than going by some book.



I think the bigger problem is no one goes by the book and just goes by word of mouth. The book doesn't teach them to be the way they are.

I just had this guy who's acting all religious now try to preach something that blatantly went against what the bible says so I showed him the verses and he argues with me and starts attacking me... because I showed him he was wrong according to his own bible?

Not the book, the people. The lessons in the book actually teach tolerance etc. The bible and all the gospels not included in said bible basically say "don't be a douche" in so many words.


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## DrakkarTyrannis (Apr 18, 2010)

Let's all just calm down....and have a nice cup of Satan


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## Hellbound (Apr 18, 2010)

Mr. Cheese does make a good point and has corrected me......the book (or so they say never read it) is supposed to teach people how to treat people with respect, to love thy neighbor, be a good person.....all that crap. The problem is it seems like most Christians do the complete opposite of what the book says. Is the word Hypocrite the right term? Can't remember.

I stopped being a so called Christian when I was making my first communion when I went in to talk with the priest according to him to complete my 1st year communion me as a 6 year old has to get naked in front of him to inspect my nuts. 

Side note.....got my windshield smashed in not long ago for hanging my upside down (Dimmu Borgir) cross with the upside down pentagram on it from my rear view mirror well and had the words "Devil worshipper burn in hell" written on a paper taped on my hood.....I was walking outside of Best Buy when I noticed it.

I worship the Devil of course I want to burn in Hell I could use a tan anyway.

bought a new window....had insurance not too expensive and have my cross right back up hanging proudly.....,damn do I love Dimmu Borgir......uh I mean the Devil everyone knows all Black metal artists are Devil Worshippers right?


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## metal_sam14 (May 10, 2010)

How can you get 2 years for destroying a book of fiction?
I can go to my local library and do that any day, the difference is its only going to cost me $20, not 2 years of my life!

Just my opinion.


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## JerkyChid (May 10, 2010)

Whether you believe or not, it's just a friggen book. Besides didn't that guy that Christians are supposed to try to be like talked about forgiveness and turning the other cheek?


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## swayman (May 10, 2010)

metal_sam14 said:


> How can you get 2 years for destroying a book of fiction?
> I can go to my local library and do that any day, the difference is its only going to cost me $20, not 2 years of my life!
> 
> Just my opinion.



This + 1


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## Explorer (May 10, 2010)

All of this is interesting when viewed through the lens of repression brought about by the Soviet presence in Poland. It's always neat when a country decides that certain principles which were previously anathema (repression of speech) are now entirely justifiable.


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## wlfers (May 11, 2010)

Explorer said:


> All of this is interesting when viewed through the lens of repression brought about by the Soviet presence in Poland. It's always neat when a country decides that certain principles which were previously anathema (repression of speech) are now entirely justifiable.



Sounds like Germany too, for instance that guy who was fired from his teaching job because he performed in a metal band on the side.

Not to mention I think some guy got jail time for his dog raising his paw similar to Hitler's salute.

Sometimes people push tolerance in one direction so vehemently they forget to realize it can be applied in every situation..... Free speech comes at a cost!


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## vortex_infinium (May 11, 2010)

This reminds me of when I saw Gaza a week or two ago and their vocalist (sorry I don't know his name) before a song starts says something like 'a few years from now we will look back and laugh out loud at the Catholic church' then some random guy turns around to me with this devastated look on his face.


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## Sebastian (Jun 28, 2010)

Didn't want to make a new thread.. so bump 

BLABBERMOUTH.NET - BEHEMOTH Frontman Off The Hook In 2007 Bible-Tearing Case



> The District Court in Gdynia, Poland has dismissed charges against vocalist/guitarist Adam "Nergal" Darski of Polish extreme metallers BEHEMOTH in connection with a September 2007 incident when he reportedly called the Catholic Church "the most murderous cult on the planet" during a BEHEMOTH performance in Gdynia and tore up a copy of the Bible onstage (see video below).


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## Scar Symmetry (Jun 29, 2010)

Awesome 

Orion win:



Orion said:


> A BEHEMOTH show is a BEHEMOTH show, and BEHEMOTH fans are coming to a BEHEMOTH show. BEHEMOTH fans know what BEHEMOTH is about, know what the lyrics are about, and know at least a little of the philosophy behind the band. So, it's kind of surprising that there are people coming to the shows and feeling offended with what we do onstage. If such a person comes to a show, he comes with the purpose of being offended, I guess, and it shouldn't be like that.



This was always the cripplingly obvious thing to me.


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## Variant (Jun 29, 2010)

*Nergal is free. Lil' Wayne is in prison. Good taste prevails for once.*


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## ittoa666 (Jun 29, 2010)

Variant said:


> Nergal is free. Lil' Wayne is in prison. Good taste prevails for once.



QFT


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## blister7321 (Jun 30, 2010)

Variant said:


> Nergal is free. Lil' Wayne is in prison. Good taste prevails for once.


 +1


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## stuz719 (Jul 1, 2010)

Nergal vs. Christians = 

Lions vs. Christians = 

The problem with taking a theist on in a battle of wits is that they invariably fail to come tooled up.


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## liamh (Jul 2, 2010)

I was there, and I have photographic memory, it went down like this...

Polish dude: You are faced with the crime of destruction of a bible

Nergal: OH SERPENT AND LION!!!!!

Polish dude: Holy fucking christ, I'll let you off the hook if you dont eat my daughters.


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## The Somberlain (Jul 2, 2010)

I suppose I'm one of the few Roman Catholics who isn't offended by this


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## timbaline (Jul 3, 2010)

I'm not a big Behemoth fan, but I'm pretty glad Nergal didn't get a prison sentence for tearing up a copy of the christian bible. Sequels are bad anyways .


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## AxeHappy (Jul 4, 2010)

Waelstrum said:


> Well, I just googled that, and I can admit I was wrong.



You weren't wrong. The ridiculous amount of people killed in Soviet Russian were not killed in the name of Atheism. It's a pretty big myth. Just because Secular people were in power does not mean that they were killing in the name of Atheism.


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## tacotiklah (Jul 7, 2010)

Sebastian said:


> Didn't want to make a new thread.. so bump
> 
> BLABBERMOUTH.NET - BEHEMOTH Frontman Off The Hook In 2007 Bible-Tearing Case





Good to hear! And I think it's awesome that Nergal and me share the same first name.


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## MaksMed (Nov 3, 2010)

Just as planned


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